# After the Lies - their connection fully revealed



## Horizon

3.15am and I'm still up. After all the wonderful help from you great people here I can report that - drum roll - it got worse. Yes folks I'm back.

See, I was very definitely on the Recon path with my partner / de-facto (and could still be - just) and have been for a few weeks. It's roughly a month since DDay. But....

Last night I pressed my WS for another look at her secret Hotmail account. The one that she recently claimed she had forgotten the password to, the one where a month ago I accidentally came across her betrayal.

Remember I described how my heart thumped in my chest as I scrolled? But stupidly I spoke to soon and she deleted them. WRONG! I reset her password, with her consent, and got into "sent items" (how dumb is this woman?). And there they were in all their glory.

I copied all of them to myself this time. I read each and every one more than a few times. The correspondence was from June 2012 until March 2013. There were notable gaps where, as it describes, they were trying to keep away from each other but struggled. It would start in fits and bursts and is very graphic. There are about 15 e-mails. Add to this the iphone sexting I spoke of and that's about it.

The key to the communication is sex (obviously) but much more painfully love - yes expressions of love. Even on the 2nd of March this year, the 2nd of March !!!! she says "You do know how much I love you?"

It goes on and on. I couldn't hold back. I confronted her in the bathroom and poured the remaining content of my drink, the only beer in the house, all over her. The children freaked out. They didn't see that but they had heard enough. 

After a massive kerfuffle I told them upfront what had happened and why Mum and Dad had been arguing for the last month. She then sat them down and told them she had made a mistake. 

I can't talk anymore - I'm so shattered by the depths of this, by the depths of her denial and self delusion regarding the meaning of what she has done. I'm tired of her pushing the case about me having turned away despite how badly things had become - the justification, the "he meant nothing, it meant nothing" line. 

You said I'd be back - you were so right. F**K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Cabsy

So many similarities there. The script comes true yet again. 

Be careful around the kids. They're very vulnerable and they will probably remember this time when their parents were fighting if things get out of control. Some images I will never be able to erase from my mind are of my parents fighting and the divorce/custody process.

You're not alone. Around the same time your wife was saying "You do know how much I love you?" - my wife was sealing her "break-up" with the OM with an I love you and a french kiss. But yeah, it meant nothing... right?


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## warlock07

Print them and send them to OMW. How old are the kids ?


What do you plan to do now? How is she reacting?


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## bryanp

You could have been arrested and sent to jail for pouring beer over her. It is called assault and you would have been in jail now if your wife had called the police.


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## thatbpguy

Betrayers are like addicts. They get a certain type of high from what they do. 

But these emails make it crystal clear she has no love for you in any way and the marriage is a shell or a sham. 

I think this will more or less continue unabated so long as you're together.

The next move is up to you.


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## thatbpguy

bryanp said:


> You could have been arrested and sent to jail for pouring beer over her. It is called assault and you would have been in jail now if your wife had called the police.


Not to mention a perfectly good waste of a beer.


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## aug

thatbpguy said:


> Not to mention a perfectly good waste of a beer.


lol. plus, it was "the only beer in the house"


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## aug

Horizon said:


> She then sat them down and told them she had made a mistake.


It can not possibly be a mistake when the affair went on for about a year or two.

just saying...


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## Wazza

Horizon, was the idea of love new information to you?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Get some sleep. It's your friend. Will keep you from pouring beer and exposing the kids to their parent's mess.


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## aug

Darn. Wrong link. I stand corrected. Thanks Wazza.


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## MattMatt

aug said:


> Now you know why she wont have sex with you as in your thread here.
> 
> She's in love with the other man.


Oh. Oh, no! Damn.

So perhaps if she has sex with husband, she is cheating on the OM?:scratchhead:

Horizon, this might not be over! You need to protect yourself and your children.


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## walkonmars

So even after the affair had been outed, a NC letter written and sent, expressions of remorse given - she still expressed her love for the OM? 

Apparently if HE was available, you'd be history. True lurrrrrve is in her heart. Unrequited though it may be. It's there - and it's not toward you. 

Go back to your original thread. You were given loads of excellent advice on how to proceed. Follow them.

Work on yourself. 
Find a job. 
Take control of your life.


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## tacoma

bryanp said:


> You could have been arrested and sent to jail for pouring beer over her. It is called assault and you would have been in jail now if your wife had called the police.


LMAO

Hysterical.


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## Horizon

Hello everyone. Sleep impossible, It'll be dawn soon. 

Yes Wazza, it was new. It may sound naive but I hadn't really focused on it and in all the correspondence I had never seen these words used. But she did say it and he acknowledged it.

Yes, of course aug, it's what they say isn't it. And it was the last beer. We sat down to a great family dinner and I cracked it just for the occasion. We might buy a 6pack every 2 weeks. Tooheys New - a great Aussie beer.

Yes tbg, wasted, but wasted with "extreme prejudice". The next move is mine and I'm hung up on what to do. I'm working on me but I'm reluctant to leave this house with the hours she keeps and my responsibilities to our beautiful children - school, meals, sport, love & more love. The usual stuff. They need me more than ever.

bryanp - it was dumb. See what happens. Did I say poured? I meant to say spilt.

warlock07 - if you remember, the OMW did not return my call and ignored my 2 texts, but I got my message across. However I have considered what you are saying. My kids are 12 & 9. As I said I have such a lot to do with my children I haven't got a good bead on exactly what I should do. They are freaked out about us breaking - both in tears. My son, my poor son, is so sensitive and articulate. My daughter has a thick hide and acts like she is 15. But both of them are worried. My partner cut loose on me when I let fly about the e-mails. Too much to go into now but more of the same "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"....all the other diversions repeated ad nauseum, outright anger, tears, telling the 3 of us to eff off under her breath and storming upstairs...

Another thing - coincidentally last night, at the tail end of the storm with my partner the OM texted me and accused me of stalking and threatening his family and warned me off copying and using his messages and or publicising them. He accused me of threatening him and then sent it to my partner a minute or so later. He said if I did not cease and desist from this invasion of his privacy (it was all in a kind of legal tone - so he has obviously had some advice) he would call the police. I replied "Go right ahead and then we will find out who has invaded who's privacy". No response. This all came about because I texted him last week about how I was going to go public.

Hard times.


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## Woodchuck

bryanp said:


> You could have been arrested and sent to jail for pouring beer over her. It is called assault and you would have been in jail now if your wife had called the police.


Yes isn't a wonderful world, when a woman can cheat, lie, destroy mans self respect, family, and future and get off scott free, but he can go to jail for mussing her hair....


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## MattMatt

tacoma said:


> LMAO
> 
> Hysterical.


But sadly, true.

That his wife did not follow this up may be a positive sign.


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## bryanp

Never give anybody the heads up. All it does is hurt you.


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## Chaparral

Put him on cheaterville and send him the link. Let him sow that in his a$$ and smoke it.

How do you know his wife got the info? Sounds like he intercepted the messages.

I love it when people go off on the AP, seems like no one else round here does though.


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## Horizon

bryanp said:


> Never give anybody the heads up. All it does is hurt you.


Too true - learning curve incomplete


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## warlock07

> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"


Wow!!


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## Mtts

I can give you a direction, the direction I would take.

Start filing divorce and don't look back. Thread makes me feel nasueas just reading it. Seriously, my opinion of course, but anyone who said "only reason you won't have an affair is no one would want you." That would be in my mind forever with that person.

Sorry to hear this but you got to know you're worth more than that.

Stay safe brother and do whats best for you and the kids. Forget her and let her live the miserable life she seems intent on living.


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## bandit.45

Waste of a good beer.

And I dont even drink.


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## LongWalk

Good thing you got more info. You should have stuck to your original thread.

Machiavelli would tell you to lift weights, change your behavior and become sexually attractive your wife. Others would add that you have to file for D to take control of the situation and make an impression on her.

Your situation seems pretty bad. If Warlock says "wow", you need to get your a*s in gears.


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## Wazza

aug said:


> Now you know why she wont have sex with you as in your thread here.
> 
> She's in love with the other man.


The linked thread is someone else.


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## Wazza

LongWalk said:


> Good thing you got more info. You should have stuck to your original thread.
> 
> Machiavelli would tell you to lift weights, change your behavior and become sexually attractive your wife. Others would add that you have to file for D to take control of the situation and make an impression on her.
> 
> Your situation seems pretty bad. If Warlock says "wow", you need to get your a*s in gears.


Need to sort out financial independence.

Some of the things she has said are affair fog and she may not really mean them. That doesn't mean you will be able to forget they were said.


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## MattMatt

Wazza said:


> Need to sort out financial independence.
> 
> Some of the things she has said are affair fog and she may not really mean them. That doesn't mean you will be able to forget they were said.


Or forget how bad it made you feel.

"I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt you" oh! How that phrase haunts me and triggers me...


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## thatbpguy

MattMatt said:


> Or forget how bad it made you feel.
> 
> "I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt you" oh! How that phrase haunts me and triggers me...


For those of us who have been betrayed, if we had $1 for every time we have heard this one, we'd all be retired and meeting on Hawaii somewhere.


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## itom72

Horizon said:


> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"


That's one of those times when you wish you had a quick quip on hand, something to throw back at her, like "Well, if that's the case, why did you marry me in the first place?"

That'll either shut her up - at least on that score - or compel her to dig an even deeper grave.


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## Mtts

Agreed. Affair fog or not, still came out of someone you promised to love. 

@Longwalk - Dont you talk bad about my weights! I'd never do it though to make someone want me, simply for my own enjoyment.


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## MattMatt

thatbpguy said:


> For those of us who have been betrayed, if we had $1 for every time we have heard this one, we'd all be retired and meeting on Hawaii somewhere.


 Oh, great! Now you made me laugh! 

Now every time I come across that phrase, I might -hopefully- think of Hawaii, instead.:smthumbup:


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## Remains

Horizon, I am sorry that all has gone to pot again. That is so utterly sh*t, yet so unsurprising. It happens far too often. 

I don't know if you wish to know this or not, I guess you have all the info already, but with hotmail you can undelete anything that was deleted in the last 30 days. Go into the deleted folder and there is a link at the bottom that will undelete. There is on mine anyway, and my fella's. On a side note, he is a total di*k too!


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## Will_Kane

Horizon said:


> 3.15am and I'm still up. After all the wonderful help from you great people here I can report that - drum roll - it got worse. Yes folks I'm back.
> 
> See, I was very definitely on the Recon path with my partner / de-facto (and could still be - just) and have been for a few weeks. It's roughly a month since DDay. But....
> 
> Last night I pressed my WS for another look at her secret Hotmail account. The one that she recently claimed she had forgotten the password to, the one where a month ago I accidentally came across her betrayal.
> 
> Remember I described how my heart thumped in my chest as I scrolled? But stupidly I spoke to soon and she deleted them. WRONG! I reset her password, with her consent, and got into "sent items" (how dumb is this woman?). And there they were in all their glory.
> 
> I copied all of them to myself this time. I read each and every one more than a few times. The correspondence was from June 2012 until March 2013. There were notable gaps where, as it describes, they were trying to keep away from each other but struggled. It would start in fits and bursts and is very graphic. There are about 15 e-mails. Add to this the iphone sexting I spoke of and that's about it.
> 
> The key to the communication is sex (obviously) but much more painfully love - yes expressions of love. Even on the 2nd of March this year, the 2nd of March !!!! she says "You do know how much I love you?"
> 
> It goes on and on. I couldn't hold back. I confronted her in the bathroom and poured the remaining content of my drink, the only beer in the house, all over her. The children freaked out. They didn't see that but they had heard enough.
> 
> After a massive kerfuffle I told them upfront what had happened and why Mum and Dad had been arguing for the last month. She then sat them down and told them she had made a mistake.
> 
> I can't talk anymore - I'm so shattered by the depths of this, by the depths of her denial and self delusion regarding the meaning of what she has done. I'm tired of her pushing the case about me having turned away despite how badly things had become - the justification, the "he meant nothing, it meant nothing" line.
> 
> You said I'd be back - you were so right. F**K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Looking on the bright side, you now have the full truth, or as close as most betrayed spouses are going to get.

Saying "I love you" doesn't necessarily mean it was true. It's something two people say to each other when they are fvcking a lot or are involved in a long term relationship. Wasn't she saying "I love you" to you, also, during the period the affair was going on? And she never seriously considered leaving you for him. I don't think she ever really loved him. She was using him and he was using her.

I also think the line about you not having an affair because no woman would want you gives you a great deal of insight into where your wife's head is at. She is not sorry she had the affair, she assumes she is superior to you, she believes she is desired and you are not, and of course she believes you wouldn't put up with her sh1t if you had any choice, but you don't.


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## Headspin

warlock07 said:


> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you" - Wow!!




Yea that made me chuckle that

That aside, that comment (as WKane says) is highly revealing. It illustrates where she places having an affair in her list of 'never dos' - right at the bottom. 

The gravity of having an affair and it's destructive consequences are simply not on her list of beacons and alarms red flags. 

She's saying "if any of these ten woman wanted you, you should have an affair" That's how little it means to her. That's how she thinks, that's how little he, (Horizon) means to her.

He's not quite coming to his senses......... but he's on the way!


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## Machiavelli

LongWalk said:


> Good thing you got more info. You should have stuck to your original thread.
> 
> Machiavelli would tell you to lift weights, change your behavior and become sexually attractive your wife. Others would add that you have to file for D to take control of the situation and make an impression on her.
> 
> Your situation seems pretty bad. If Warlock says "wow", you need to get your a*s in gears.





Warlock said:


> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"
> Wow!!


That's basically part of the whole Rationalization Hamster program: devaluation of the male in the run up to adultery or to overcome the post adultery guilt. Once your woman gets the idea that no other woman wants you, your goose is already cooked.


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## aug

Wazza said:


> The linked thread is someone else.



You're right. I stand corrected. I went back and edited my post.

Thanks.


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## PieceOfSky

Horizon, 

Hotmail (or at least the newer Outlook version of it) gives you a limited amount ability to recover messages that had been deleted and already purged from the deleted/trash folder.

Have you tried recovering those? Let me know if you want detailed instructions.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Horizon said:


> Hello everyone. Sleep impossible, It'll be dawn soon.


Think outside the box. You can actually sleep during daylight hours. If you go without sleep, your thought process isn't going to become any more clear than it is(n't) already. In fact, lack of sleep coupled with extreme stress could even make you psychotic.

Take some Benadryl or something and go have a lay-down.
Nothing constructive can happen unless you can think clearly about it first, and be energized enough to act (or not act, depending on the plan.)


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## Shaggy

Horizon,

1. Post the OM on cheaterville.com, think about copying every message he has sent you up there, post nothing but the truth!

2. Send the link to the OM friends family and coworkers and your cheating wife,

3. Those secret email accounts. Change the password and reset info on all of them do only you have access. Your cheating partner no longer gets access or a say on them.

4. Tell the OM if he doesn't like it, then he should meet you in court as you'd be very happy to testify on the public record,

5. Your cheating partner needs to take a polygraph and detail her affair and her current intentions.


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## AngryandUsed

Horizon,

Sorry man you are facing this.
A very hard place. 
My sympathies.

I was in a similar situation and came out much stronger than I could imagine.

So dont lose your heart. You will be alright in a few months.

Take care.


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## PreRaphaelite

Headspin said:


> Yea that made me chuckle that
> 
> That aside, that comment (as WKane says) is highly revealing. It illustrates where she places having an affair in her list of 'never dos' - right at the bottom.
> 
> The gravity of having an affair and it's destructive consequences are simply not on her list of beacons and alarms red flags.
> 
> She's saying "if any of these ten woman wanted you, you should have an affair" That's how little it means to her. That's how she thinks, that's how little he, (Horizon) means to her.
> 
> He's not quite coming to his senses......... but he's on the way!


That would be enough for me to throw the woman out of the house and initiate the divorce. She has absolutely demeaned, devaluated and debased you.

If you're so undesirable in her eyes, then I'd tell her fine, go be with the male who's more the man in your eyes.

As for the OM's threats? Post him. Dare him to sue you.


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## Horizon

PieceOfSky said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Hotmail (or at least the newer Outlook version of it) gives you a limited amount ability to recover messages that had been deleted and already purged from the deleted/trash folder.
> 
> Have you tried recovering those? Let me know if you want detailed instructions.


Hi pos, I can't find any thing anywhere that allows you to recover. What do I need to do?


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## Horizon

I really took apart my WS's arguments piece by piece today. In the end she has decided to hang on to the following - her comebacks.

"You will read into it what you want to. I can’t change your mind on that. I have told you it was all fantasy. I have never and I am not in love with him – again, you are reading everything out of context."

"When I told him I didn’t want to see him anymore. The emails kept coming from him, so yes, I played the game."

"I didn’t want to see him and when we did catch up for coffee" (HUH???) 

"I can go over and over this again with you, but my stand on this won’t change".

"I know where I was at with all of this and I had let it go"

"Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"

"Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "

"Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".

"Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"

AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!


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## Wazza

Does she concede the physical happened, and simply dispute the emotional?

Could it be that she had a crush on him that caused her to use the word love?


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## Horizon

Yes Wazza, she has conceded the physical but downplayed the other meetings in carparks at what they called "lunchtime' where apparently everything but intercourse happened on approx 10 occasions (according to the snake). 

She has downplayed from the beginning, pretty standard behavior. Yes again, I think it was very much a crush.

I hope that one day she can drop this default position that it was all fantasy. 

This is fantasy? - "Now you have really got my c**t dripping wet?" in response to a message from him. She can't face it - she just keeps lying.


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## PreRaphaelite

Horizon said:


> Yes Wazza, she has conceded the physical but downplayed the other meetings in carparks at what they called "lunchtime' where apparently everything but intercourse happened on approx 10 occasions (according to the snake).
> 
> She has downplayed from the beginning, pretty standard behavior. Yes again, I think it was very much a crush.
> 
> I hope that one day she can drop this default position that it was all fantasy.
> 
> This is fantasy? - "Now you have really got my c**t dripping wet?" in response to a message from him. She can't face it - she just keeps lying.


:wtf:

Guess I don't need to watch any porn tonite. Your cheating wife is providing the thrills.


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## warlock07

She is denying the only thing that is left to deny. 

What are you trying to do here ? After all she said, it is obvious she does not respect you or love you..atleast right now. She probably won't say it to your face though.. She is trying to keep the family together, whatever the reason is. Guilt, kids, finances... If at all you are in that list, you are at the very bottom.


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## thatbpguy

Horizon said:


> I really took apart my WS's arguments piece by piece today. In the end she has decided to hang on to the following - her comebacks.
> 
> "You will read into it what you want to. I can’t change your mind on that. I have told you it was all fantasy. I have never and I am not in love with him – again, you are reading everything out of context."
> 
> "When I told him I didn’t want to see him anymore. The emails kept coming from him, so yes, I played the game."
> 
> "I didn’t want to see him and when we did catch up for coffee" (HUH???)
> 
> "I can go over and over this again with you, but my stand on this won’t change".
> 
> "I know where I was at with all of this and I had let it go"
> 
> "Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"
> 
> "Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "
> 
> "Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".
> 
> "Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"
> 
> AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!


This plus all the times she met with him. All she had to do was say"no"- and that is why she lies.

In all honesty, she is hanging on only to save some face and shame. I think the relationship is over and she's has made a complete fool out of you. And will continue to do so.


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## Wazza

I found this helpful. Dunno if it might also help you

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity


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## Horizon

thatbpguy said:


> This plus all the times she met with him. All she had to do was say"no"- and that is why she lies.
> 
> In all honesty, she is hanging on only to save some face and shame. I think the relationship is over and she's has made a complete fool out of you. And will continue to do so.


Yes, and then she adds in another e-mail that she wants me to really consider our family and what we have before i decide to walk out. She wants to keep it together but I feel so ripped off I keep having pot shots. The lies are infuriating me. 

She's just gone to bed - "I'm too tired to care right now". True enough neither of us slept last night and she was at work all day.


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## Horizon

PreRaphaelite said:


> :wtf:
> 
> Guess I don't need to watch any porn tonite. Your cheating wife is providing the thrills.


and how I would have loved to hear those words


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## SoulStorm

Horizon said:


> Yes, and then she adds in another e-mail that she wants me to really consider our family and what we have before i decide to walk out.


What was she considering when she started the affair.
It is not amicable for her to throw that on you when she walked out by having the affair.

You don't have to physically leave a marriage to "walk out".
In my opinion she beat you to that one.


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## cledus_snow

> "I'm too tired to care right now".


doesn't seem like she cares at all.


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## warlock07

Horizon said:


> "Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"
> 
> "Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "


Utter bullsh*t!!! How is this love in any way or form ? Is she out of her mind ?



> "Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".
> 
> "Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"


Retarded logic. 

Imagine you physically abusing your wife every night and pleading to work it out in the morning because you love her so much. yeah, her words make as much sense


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## badbane

Horizon said:


> Hello everyone. Sleep impossible, It'll be dawn soon.
> 
> Yes Wazza, it was new. It may sound naive but I hadn't really focused on it and in all the correspondence I had never seen these words used. But she did say it and he acknowledged it.
> 
> Yes, of course aug, it's what they say isn't it. And it was the last beer. We sat down to a great family dinner and I cracked it just for the occasion. We might buy a 6pack every 2 weeks. Tooheys New - a great Aussie beer.
> 
> Yes tbg, wasted, but wasted with "extreme prejudice". The next move is mine and I'm hung up on what to do. I'm working on me but I'm reluctant to leave this house with the hours she keeps and my responsibilities to our beautiful children - school, meals, sport, love & more love. The usual stuff. They need me more than ever.
> 
> bryanp - it was dumb. See what happens. Did I say poured? I meant to say spilt.
> 
> warlock07 - if you remember, the OMW did not return my call and ignored my 2 texts, but I got my message across. However I have considered what you are saying. My kids are 12 & 9. As I said I have such a lot to do with my children I haven't got a good bead on exactly what I should do. They are freaked out about us breaking - both in tears. My son, my poor son, is so sensitive and articulate. My daughter has a thick hide and acts like she is 15. But both of them are worried. My partner cut loose on me when I let fly about the e-mails. Too much to go into now but more of the same "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"....all the other diversions repeated ad nauseum, outright anger, tears, telling the 3 of us to eff off under her breath and storming upstairs...
> 
> Another thing - coincidentally last night, at the tail end of the storm with my partner the OM texted me and accused me of stalking and threatening his family and warned me off copying and using his messages and or publicising them. He accused me of threatening him and then sent it to my partner a minute or so later. He said if I did not cease and desist from this invasion of his privacy (it was all in a kind of legal tone - so he has obviously had some advice) he would call the police. I replied "Go right ahead and then we will find out who has invaded who's privacy". No response. This all came about because I texted him last week about how I was going to go public.
> 
> Hard times.



Nice try he is trying to setup a defense. The emails were on her account. She gave to access to that account. By doing so she gave you permission to view emails on her account. Therefore you had permission from your wife to read the emails on her account. He has no defense he is just trying to ward you off. The only thing you could do wrong here is to disclose those emails to a large group of people who do not know what is going on. You can say they are having an affair. You need a lawyer right now. But he can't stop you from looking through those emails.


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## theroad

Horizon said:


> Yes, and then she adds in another e-mail that she wants me to really consider our family and what we have before i decide to walk out. She wants to keep it together but I feel so ripped off I keep having pot shots. The lies are infuriating me.
> 
> She's just gone to bed - "I'm too tired to care right now". True enough neither of us slept last night and she was at work all day.


Venting is not recovering.

What have you and your WW done to recover?

Write up a list please.

I'll start off with get and you and your WW read the book Survivng An Affair by Dr Harley. Believe less then $10.


----------



## badbane

Horizon said:


> Yes Wazza, she has conceded the physical but downplayed the other meetings in carparks at what they called "lunchtime' where apparently everything but intercourse happened on approx 10 occasions (according to the snake).
> 
> She has downplayed from the beginning, pretty standard behavior. Yes again, I think it was very much a crush.
> 
> I hope that one day she can drop this default position that it was all fantasy.
> 
> This is fantasy? - "Now you have really got my c**t dripping wet?" in response to a message from him. She can't face it - she just keeps lying.


This will continue for a time. You need to get her to see a councilor. She is in a heavy fog and the part of her mind that has been compartmentalizing her life is fighting with the reality of the situation she is in. The result is this crazy duality where she knows the truth but she can't admit it because then it would ruin the reality she has created. 
I suggest you try and get her to leave and conduct counciling while you are separated. If you want this to be done that is your choice it is not my place to push that. Our place is to encourage you in whatever decicion you make. i will say that putting D or cutting all ties on the table will make steps toward reconciliation more effective. The faster and more deliberate you act will determine how well this will go. Fail to act swiftly and the A may start up again in a different channel.


----------



## warlock07

Horizon, what improvements have you started to make in your life ?


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> "You will read into it what you want to. I can’t change your mind on that. I have told you it was all fantasy. I have never and I am not in love with him – again, you are reading everything out of context."


Er no it wasn't you lived it in real life!



Horizon said:


> "When I told him I didn’t want to see him anymore. The emails kept coming from him, so yes, I played the game."


And so I saw him !



Horizon said:


> "I didn’t want to see him and when we did catch up for coffee" (HUH???)


Yes I did exactly what I absolutely did NOT want to do .......and saw him !



Horizon said:


> "I can go over and over this again with you, but my stand on this won’t change".


So fk you, like - it or lump it



Horizon said:


> "I know where I was at with all of this and I had let it go"


I got caught



Horizon said:


> "Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"


If only I can get him back onside again then life would be sweet



Horizon said:


> "Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "


Yes it has only ever been me ............ until it's been him AS WELL !



Horizon said:


> "Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".


Yes it's your fault !!



Horizon said:


> "Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"


Because you're a damn cake eater who has enjoyed both lives - a good husband and good life BUT and some slurps on the side and while you running that along treating your husband/partner like absolute shvte you - fed at the trough with a large smile on your 'cat that got the cream' face - untul you got your sorry arse caught and now Horizon needs to come up trumps ........as PLAN B



Horizon said:


> AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!


Quite

Honestly Horizon - just save yourself the trouble


----------



## Toffer

Sorry H.

A total lack of respect. She won't even respect you enough to tell you the truth. Since she won't, I'll give you the bullet list:

She had another man inside of her multiple times
She exposed you to STDs
She put her entire family at risk
She was (and still is) being completely disrespectful to you
She lied to you and continues to do so
She insults you to justify her affair

OK, now ask yourself, what are her redeeming qualities?

She's a good mother (No she's not. She risked her family with this behavior)

Sorry I can only come up with that one!


----------



## Horizon

It meant nothing it was all fantasy - she will not resile from that position.

warlock07 - I'm doing nothing more than parenting my kids, running the house, getting some exercise and doing part time work here and there.

Guys - I'm f**ked at the moment. This has all come on me again and I feel in a very strange mental and physical state. I feel like the energy has been sucked out of me and I'm just showing up for life. Un-engaged. I've noticed that old imjuries have started to ache, like my ankles for example. Some type of physical reaction to all this.

Thanks Wazza, I have checked out that site. Very helpful and I'll get back to it later.

Hell I want my girl back - she was some women - but she went off the rails and now she seems only capable of working really hard, as she has always done, and just sit back until the storm passes. What a bummer.


----------



## LongWalk

Machiavelli said:


> That's basically part of the whole Rationalization Hamster program: devaluation of the male in the run up to adultery or to overcome the post adultery guilt. Once your woman gets the idea that no other woman wants you, your goose is already cooked.


If you can get Warlock and Mach kicking your butt, it is like free energy to fix yourself... no, that is not correct. They will help you, until they feel it is pretty hopeless. Sometimes they come back round to check up.

Take what is offered and act. Who knows what strength you have within? Take your wife's challenge up. What have you got to lose?


----------



## Acabado

Deleted as I mistoke you story.


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> I really took apart my WS's arguments piece by piece today. In the end she has decided to hang on to the following - her comebacks.
> 
> "You will read into it what you want to. I can’t change your mind on that. I have told you it was all fantasy. I have never and I am not in love with him – again, you are reading everything out of context."
> 
> "When I told him I didn’t want to see him anymore. The emails kept coming from him, so yes, I played the game."
> 
> "I didn’t want to see him and when we did catch up for coffee" (HUH???)
> 
> "I can go over and over this again with you, but my stand on this won’t change".
> 
> "I know where I was at with all of this and I had let it go"
> 
> "Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"
> 
> "Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "
> 
> "Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".
> 
> "Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"
> 
> AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!


Horizon, you have an opening here to "save" your marriage, or relationship is more acurate, and if you are not financially independent I suggest you hatch a plan to save your marriage and start a double-life of your own, setting yourself up for an exit when your kids are older, or when you have had enough. 

Many TAMers will tell you to divorce immediately, and if the marriage is OVER that is good advice, but if you have a spouse expressing remorse and love for you, there are many other options, all depend on what you want.

There are many degrees of infidelty of varying types of seriousness, in my opinion your spouses is a 7 degree serious (10 being the most), whereby there were elements of love, sex and degradation of the marriage and ongoing lies even after the affair was recovered. With this kind of affair you need to protect yourself and think of yourself as "half done" with this woman, who seems very selfish and dangerous. You can reconcile with this kind of person, but disingenously, don't make yourself vulnerable to her every again, and always be on the lookout. However, she seems good for sex, and as a bread-winner, do enough to keep her and use her to these means. don't tell her your using her, but tell her you love her. LIE, and say your totally forgive her (you never should) and trust her and understand how hard this is for her (these should be all lies, she is a looser). 

The other half of you should start making a plan to leave when the kids are a bit older, or you are more ready. This plan kept totally to yourself will build your confidence, you will turn yourself into your best ally; while the wife, she is to be used for your needs, play her for all you can. 

When you feel somewhat recovered, and the marraige is a bit more stable, you should start looking for a more suitable spouse. 

Good luck, enjoy using your wife and lying to her in the same manner she lied to you. You will feel A LOT better, and sleep well!!


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> It meant nothing it was all fantasy - she will not resile from that position.
> 
> warlock07 - I'm doing nothing more than parenting my kids, running the house, getting some exercise and doing part time work here and there.
> 
> Guys - I'm f**ked at the moment. This has all come on me again and I feel in a very strange mental and physical state. I feel like the energy has been sucked out of me and I'm just showing up for life. Un-engaged. I've noticed that old imjuries have started to ache, like my ankles for example. Some type of physical reaction to all this.
> 
> Thanks Wazza, I have checked out that site. Very helpful and I'll get back to it later.
> 
> Hell I want my girl back - she was some women - but she went off the rails and now she seems only capable of working really hard, as she has always done, and just sit back until the storm passes. What a bummer.



You are not giving yourself enough credit, but that is the design of infidelity, to destroy a loving spouse and de-value them, and you are falling victim to this. 

First, a loving man who runs a house-hold and takes care of is of a very high value, you cannot put a price on true love. Unfortunately we live in the Age of Satan where love is destroyed by lust, greed, and thoughtless selfish, banality. Your wife erred greatly, she has degarded herself FOR NOTHING and has destroyed something of HIGHEST VALUE, your love and your families peace and love. She has brought into your house, misery, and has gotten nothing of value in return except MORE MISERY. SHe is freaking out (clearly) and out of control and perpatrating more acts of misery. 

Now let me ask you, why should you be the one having sleepless nights, and thinking your life is ruined. You did everything right, you held up your end of the bargain, you fought for good. 

Unfortunatly, in this world one msut fight nasty with nasty, turn the other cheek and you will be trampled upon, thus is what happens in the Age of Satan. Remember, she opened the box, she trashed your love and the peace in your home.


----------



## BWBill

_Yes, and then she adds in another e-mail that she wants me to really consider our family and what we have before i decide to walk out. She wants to keep it together . . . _

Given the reaction of the OM's partner, the reason she wants to keep it together is that the OM is not available to her.


----------



## Horizon

I should clarify even though it is more of the same. 

Those responses above from my partner (God I'm hating that expression!!!) were her reply to a e-mail I sent to her at work. Which I tend to do after a big blow up when things have calmed and I can be more objective (if that's at all possible and what else am I going to do at 3.00am?). I can't stand waiting around for the next evening when more drinks are had by her up until the kids are in bed. I need sober and more immediate feedback.

In my 2nd e-mail I responded to her reply to my first message in very direct and precise terms, dissecting the words you have read as well as telling her not to ever BS me again with this "fantasy" routine. However last night she did exactly that. Which is why I said she will not resile from it. It's her default position - a one stop shop, covers all situations, one liner! 

The further embarrassment is that she is embellishing now. Last night when I tried to question her about things - did the pr!ck try to contact you again, how do you explain the graphic e-mails etc she opened up a little (yes bad pun!). She said it was a game where we tried to top each other. This is a new angle! Sad isn't it? I told her - "I can't believe a word you are saying, it defies all logic darling". 

You will be glad to know that I repeated my killer line from my response e-mail (which she did not reply to and only partly addressed last night).

Here it is - "darling you are expecting me to believe the opposite of every e-mail and every text that I read between you and the snake. Do you understand how that simply defies human logic?" - Answer (drum roll) "It was a game". 

I should add something which will not surprise you, something which clarifies her state of mind. At the height of the Sunday night blow up (the night before last), where our kids finally latched on to some truth about our recent arguments she was raging at me. As she stormed upstairs she said "I have been putting up with your sh!t for a month now, I've got to go back to work tomorrow, you have completely ruined my two week break..." (exit stage right with the sh!t that "YOU CREATED!!!!").

Keep in mind there are drinks on board but what does it matter in the broad scheme of things. I'm doing what I can but there is no moving out of this house - there is the spare room thing which I am trying (not fun - a kids bed). It sucks.

By the way, in my 2nd e-mail which she didn't deal with as noted. I jumped on her line about wanting to get back to what we had when we first got together. I asked her what she had planned, what thoughts and ideas she had, particularly as we moved to this new home over two months ago. In her first and only reply yesterday she talked about the "new home new start". (A clean beginning - a story the cheater tells themselves to help cleanse their soul after the sordid affair?).

I repeated that last night and said to her - "I would love to see something tangible, something concrete, some ideas at least from you about how we get back to that feeling (not possible I know), how we move forward re-building. I suggested a weekend away in my e-mail today, what have you got?" She had zip folks.

Yes, tired, yes first day back at work, yes I'm pressuring at 10pm but you get my point. I mean she could have come up with one thing, she had my tip off all day at work. She had nothing and do you know what her reason was (paraphrasing) - "We're not at that...we, it's...we haven't got to that stage...you know what I mean...".

Apparently some time in the future when I stop attacking, when I stop probing, when things settle down she will be armed with all these wonderful ideas about us. You think I was going in too early on this? For me it just proved a point about priorites if nothing else - where I am in the pecking order, my position on the totem pole as someone noted. 

Shoot - it's almost 5am. What the hell, I'll blame her for destroying my last month of sleeping bliss as well. She earned it.


----------



## BK23

Dude. Leave. Unless you are happy staying with someone that does not respect you and will continue to treat you like sh!t, it is time for you to move on. I know it's hard, but not every situation is reconcilable--both parties need to want it, and she doesn't really seem to. Please stop letting her hurt you.


----------



## Horizon

Ah screw this, I'm so bloody angry. Here is something she sent to this creepy OM in September 2013. 

"I still miss you to, but I think you know that. I am glad that you were honest with me and no you didn't miss out because of it, I did. I can't help the way I feel about you. The thought of you with someone else makes me insanely jealous (something I have never been before!) and I hate that I can't have you the way I want you - but that was never realistic anyway.
As I have told you before, you tick all of the boxes (some boxes get double and triple ticks), you are insanely sexy and amazingly hot - just having lunch with you makes me happy, but also makes me think of how our lunches used to go. I so wanted to play with you - how much fun could we have had."

The raw pain of reading this is on Sunday night lingers palpably 2 days later and the final insult that it is all "fantasy" permeates like a rotting corpse. 

Sorry about the self-flagellation people, you have been wonderful to me. It's a torturous path I am forced down occasionally.


----------



## Jibril

I don't remember the exact details of your situation in the past, and I can't look back and find it at the moment, Horizon. 

With that said, it's obvious that your "partner" is upset and angry with you, and not the least bit remorseful. Oh, she wants to keep up appearances, sure. Who's want to be known as a cheating sack of garbage, after all?

But what do YOU want? Maybe I'm missing some key piece of information from an earlier topic of yours, but it seems to me that you're wasting your time. You can't reconcile with someone who doesn't WANT to reconcile. With someone who's not sorry, and takes you and the family for granted. 

Leave her. Pack her stuff up, and give her the boot. She isn't cooperating, and is doing her best to sweep this entire thing under the rug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Jibril said:


> I don't remember the exact details of your situation in the past, and I can't look back and find it at the moment, Horizon.
> 
> With that said, it's obvious that your "partner" is upset and angry with you, and not the least bit remorseful. Oh, she wants to keep up appearances, sure. Who's want to be known as a cheating sack of garbage, after all?
> 
> But what do YOU want? Maybe I'm missing some key piece of information from an earlier topic of yours, but it seems to me that you're wasting your time. You can't reconcile with someone who doesn't WANT to reconcile. With someone who's not sorry, and takes you and the family for granted.
> 
> Leave her. Pack her stuff up, and give her the boot. She isn't cooperating, and is doing her best to sweep this entire thing under the rug.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know thanks - sh!t, now I'm crying. She broke my heart...


----------



## doubletrouble

thatbpguy said:


> Not to mention a perfectly good waste of a beer.


Especially if it's the last one in the house!!


----------



## doubletrouble

Ever-Man said:


> Unfortunately we live in the Age of Satan where love is destroyed by lust, greed, and thoughtless selfish, banality.


:iagree:


----------



## BobSimmons

Horizon said:


> Ah screw this, I'm so bloody angry. Here is something she sent to this creepy OM in September 2013.
> 
> "I still miss you to, but I think you know that. I am glad that you were honest with me and no you didn't miss out because of it, I did. I can't help the way I feel about you. *The thought of you with someone else makes me insanely jealous (something I have never been before!)* and I hate that I can't have you the way I want you - but that was never realistic anyway.
> As I have told you before, you tick all of the boxes (some boxes get double and triple ticks), you are insanely sexy and amazingly hot - just having lunch with you makes me happy, but also makes me think of how our lunches used to go. I so wanted to play with you - how much fun could we have had."
> 
> The raw pain of reading this is on Sunday night lingers palpably 2 days later and the final insult that it is all "fantasy" permeates like a rotting corpse.
> 
> Sorry about the self-flagellation people, you have been wonderful to me. It's a torturous path I am forced down occasionally.


Read that line and re read it. 

You think she really wants you now? A man with no self worth is a ghost. A man with no self respect is a shadow. You're the standard of a "man" who's just there, just a representation...she has a "man" in the house, she doesn't want to lose that. But she doesn't respect you and you don't respect yourself. Your passiveness is quite startlingly alarming.


----------



## awake1

No more mr nice guy - please read it. 

I found my balls. I "took" back my wife on my terms, and frankly I'm at a place where I could leave tomorrow and never look back. And i might. It's not fear that keeps me, or uncertainty. I wish to satisfy my own curiosity. 

You will get hard, because this will make you hard. You're soft like I was. You did everything right and tried to be the best, most loving father and husband you could be. But you were wrong. I was wrong. But smart men learn from their mistakes. And we are smart men. The smart ones come here and learn. The dumb ones go back without learning the "why" or the "how". 

Do not engage in her BS. 

My advice? Go to a bar, any bar with a few friends. Hit on a lot of women. A lot. Get the stink of desperation off you. You don't need to jump ship, but you do need to remind the whispering voice that says "if I were better looking, or nicer, or paid more attention to her she wouldn't treat me this way" You need to remind that voice that you my good friend are one hell of a catch, and you don't even realize it. 

I didn't see any mention of kids, but if you have them: #1 must be #1. You are #1. If you are desperate, your children suffer. If you lack a backbone, your children will suffer. If you treat yourself like a worthless piece of trash, your children suffer. Only by taking care of yourself can you care for someone else. That doesn't mean be selfish, that means to use your god given brain. 

You will be treated how you treat yourself. Whether by kids, a wife, a friend. If you let others walk all over you, you start to look and act like a doormat. 


Your posts wreak of desperation. The best way to wash that off in the short term? New clothes, and go out. Do it.

Oh and tell her what a piece of s*[email protected] [email protected]% she is. You'll feel better. 

And stop using logic. That isn't a computer youre talking to, it's an emotional trainwreck without common sense.


----------



## sandc

Horizon said:


> I really took apart my WS's arguments piece by piece today. In the end she has decided to hang on to the following - her comebacks.
> 
> "You will read into it what you want to. I can’t change your mind on that. I have told you it was all fantasy. I have never and I am not in love with him – again, you are reading everything out of context."


You had the entire email for context. You know perfectly well the context.




Horizon said:


> "When I told him I didn’t want to see him anymore. The emails kept coming from him, so yes, I played the game."


So she was playing a game with him. Come chase me. I want to be pursued.



Horizon said:


> "I didn’t want to see him and when we did catch up for coffee" (HUH???)


LIE. She wanted to see him.



Horizon said:


> "I can go over and over this again with you, but my stand on this won’t change".


Probably true.



Horizon said:


> "I know where I was at with all of this and I had let it go"


She don't know jack.



Horizon said:


> "Again, I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do love you and I love our family and I would love for you and I to find again what we had when we first got together"


You can never again have what you had together. You HAD a faithful wife. The only way you can get it back is if she un-fvcks the OM. Can she do that?



Horizon said:


> "Please know that I never loved and don’t love him. It has only ever been you since I met you "


Tell her she's lying. You have it in writing that she loved him. 
If she says that meant nothing, ask her what it meant when she said she loved you all those times?




Horizon said:


> "Yes, I screwed it up and have to find a way to fix it, but I can’t do that if you won’t believe me and won’t let me".


How can you believe her at this point. She's consistently LIED.



Horizon said:


> "Why would I fight so hard if I didn’t want to be here?? Again, why wouldn’t I have left if that was what I wanted??"


Because he doesn't want her either. He just wants an easy fvck.



Horizon said:


> AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!


Ain't that the truth...


----------



## Horizon

Bob and awake1,

thanks. i do appreciate the 'tough love'. Yes, I've grown flabby but truly I can feel the 'hard' man rattling the cage. I'm not making excuses here - I do have to parent my beautiful children and run this building. Do you think it is impossible for me to stay under this roof? I'm very concerned for my kids well being. I've decided to make the spare room an ongoing my nest every night and effectively be separate in the same house. I don't know what you think of that - let me know.

When I posted her observation that I can't have an affair because no one will have me, I failed to point out the following. She made this comment when I asked her how would she feel if I told her I was banging the lady across the road. Her reactions.....

"I don't care"

"She wouldn't do it with you"

"It's all about sex with you"

And then you know what. She has a few times tried to downplay sex, even regarding her A - "It was just sex"

See, with the overwhelming facts, the feedback the articles by professionals - all this stuff about infidelity and she is still stuck i the fog. It's like she is on a small Island that is day by day being reclaimed by the ocean.


----------



## Horizon

sandc said:


> You had the entire email for context. You know perfectly well the context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So she was playing a game with him. Come chase me. I want to be pursued.
> 
> 
> 
> LIE. She wanted to see him.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably true.
> 
> 
> 
> She don't know jack.
> 
> 
> 
> You can never again have what you had together. You HAD a faithful wife. The only way you can get it back is if she un-fvcks the OM. Can she do that?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell her she's lying. You have it in writing that she loved him.
> If she says that meant nothing, ask her what it meant when she said she loved you all those times?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you believe her at this point. She's consistently LIED.
> 
> 
> 
> Because he doesn't want her either. He just wants an easy fvck.
> 
> 
> 
> Ain't that the truth...


Thanks sandc. A spot on delineation. It's been 1 month since DDay and what has she done to "work on us"? Sweet f**k all as we say down under.


----------



## sandc

Kick her out. She needs to understand what it is she purchased with her affair.


----------



## Shaggy

I really would go after the OM via public exposure on cheaterville and I would include as much of the details there from him that you can.

Then notify the OM that it is done by sending him an anonymous email with the link 

And then tell your WW about doing it after its done. 

If she doesn't care about him or the affair she won't care. But we both know she does care about him and doesn't want to hurt him. She'll be forced to show her true colors.


----------



## Headspin

I think you need to talk serious sh!t .....WITH YOURSELF

I could be wrong but if there's a man on here who thinks you can get back with this er 'person' then show me 

I've never said this before but if you do get back with her then there's something about yourself you are not telling, about what kind of sh!t you need to have in your life.

I'm not criticizing you here Horizon, after all its all meant to help, but do you realize how weak willed and flimsy you come across? This is the same for her the way you come across for her too and it's the reason she has nil respect for you.

Don't get me wrong its understandable and you are justified in many feelings you have but showing how vulnerable and weak you are in the face of this "strong willed woman " bull**** is plain wrong. 

Take Control

Frankly most "strong willed" people are like that 'strong willed' because most other people let them be that way - you want to shout and show how determined you are fine. I cant be bothered with you so I'll show how determined I am calmly and quietly IN MY WAY. Control and strength are shown by saying something and backing it up with unshakeable actions - just do them - you don't have to shout whilst you do them 

Again I'll say this, talk to people in the same language - one that they will understand


----------



## bryanp

Contact an attorney and make sure she will be forced to pay you alimony. She is really really despicable.


----------



## jnj express

Why is your wife in the marital bedroom, and you in some small room---THAT SHOULD BE REVERSED

Your wife's E-mails, and physical contact---should be enuff for you

Why are you hanging on to this woman's coat-tails---she doesn't give a crap about you---how many times does she have to kick you, while you are down

She is not remorseful---she is aggressive---she is running the show---what kind of marital situation do you actually have---cuz from everything I read, you ain't going nowhere---you are cowering in a small room in the house---you come on here, and make big noises---you yell at her---you claim, you gotta take care of the kids----and NOTHIN F'ing NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN YOUR MGE----she will go back to him, or some other guy whenever she wants---and you are not gonna do a da*n thing about it----ARE YOU???????


----------



## hookares

Horizon, my ex wife revealed eleven different "mistakes" she made over the twenty years we were together, two of which produced her two children.
The two times she has approached me to help her out now that she's homeless, she too, insists"it was just sex".
Any possibility that DNA tests are in order?


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> It meant nothing it was all fantasy - she will not resile from that position.
> 
> warlock07 - I'm doing nothing more than parenting my kids, running the house, getting some exercise and doing part time work here and there.
> 
> Guys - I'm f**ked at the moment. This has all come on me again and I feel in a very strange mental and physical state. I feel like the energy has been sucked out of me and I'm just showing up for life. Un-engaged. I've noticed that old imjuries have started to ache, like my ankles for example. Some type of physical reaction to all this.
> 
> Thanks Wazza, I have checked out that site. Very helpful and I'll get back to it later.
> 
> Hell I want my girl back - she was some women - but she went off the rails and now she seems only capable of working really hard, as she has always done, and just sit back until the storm passes. What a bummer.


I know exactly where you are at mentally. It stings, and it's like your spirit is knocked out of your body.

You have to drop her for now whether you want her back or not. Focus on some things you need to get done for yourself, and stop communicating and worrying about her. 

At this momment she is not your ally.

Once you start getting ahead of the curve on some of your tasks for yourself, you will be more in the moment and not as reactive.

If you took this pain and frustration your facing today, and just went and layed down and thought about it and attempted to forge a solution, you would get more and more depressed and have less hope.

What I propose for you to do is the exact opposite. Don't worry about it for now and go get some work done.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Bob and awake1,
> 
> thanks. i do appreciate the 'tough love'. Yes, I've grown flabby but truly I can feel the 'hard' man rattling the cage. I'm not making excuses here - I do have to parent my beautiful children and run this building. Do you think it is impossible for me to stay under this roof? I'm very concerned for my kids well being. I've decided to make the spare room an ongoing my nest every night and effectively be separate in the same house. I don't know what you think of that - let me know.
> 
> When I posted her observation that I can't have an affair because no one will have me, I failed to point out the following. She made this comment when I asked her how would she feel if I told her I was banging the lady across the road. Her reactions.....
> 
> "I don't care"
> 
> "She wouldn't do it with you"
> 
> "It's all about sex with you"
> 
> And then you know what. She has a few times tried to downplay sex, even regarding her A - "It was just sex"
> 
> See, with the overwhelming facts, the feedback the articles by professionals - all this stuff about infidelity and she is still stuck i the fog. It's like she is on a small Island that is day by day being reclaimed by the ocean.


In 8 weeks you can knock off 30-40 lbs of flabbiness and you should.


----------



## happyman64

> Yes, and then she adds in another e-mail that she wants me to really consider our family and what we have before i decide to walk out.


Horizon

Have you ever replied back to your wife?

"*Why did you not consider our family and me before you had the Affair? Can you honestly answer this question without lying or throwing nonsense back at me?

And consider me not walking out on our family but me throwing you out of our home*"

Turn it around Horizon. It only sounds like she is mad because you caught her.....

HM64


----------



## happyman64

Horizon said:


> Bob and awake1,
> 
> thanks. i do appreciate the 'tough love'. Yes, I've grown flabby but truly I can feel the 'hard' man rattling the cage. I'm not making excuses here - I do have to parent my beautiful children and run this building. Do you think it is impossible for me to stay under this roof? I'm very concerned for my kids well being. I've decided to make the spare room an ongoing my nest every night and effectively be separate in the same house. I don't know what you think of that - let me know.
> 
> When I posted her observation that I can't have an affair because no one will have me, I failed to point out the following. She made this comment when I asked her how would she feel if I told her I was banging the lady across the road. Her reactions.....
> 
> "I don't care"
> 
> "She wouldn't do it with you"
> 
> "It's all about sex with you"
> 
> And then you know what. She has a few times tried to downplay sex, even regarding her A - "It was just sex"
> 
> See, with the overwhelming facts, the feedback the articles by professionals - all this stuff about infidelity and she is still stuck i the fog. It's like she is on a small Island that is day by day being reclaimed by the ocean.


No Horizon. Move your wife into the guest room, not you.

Show her consequences.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Horizon---with what your so-called wife said in her message to her lover in post 70---YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE

Nothing physical, is gonna be any worse than reading those words, that she sent to him, that her heart and mind sent to him---along with her complete "DISSING" of you---in that she KNOWS---you can't get a woman to have an A with---what kind of a woman do you have that claims to be a wife---not just your wife---but a wife at all

This woman who you live with----she thinks absolutely nothing of you-----when she talks of her BS, R, of the mge---it is all at her level, her terms----she could care less what you do or say

Horizon----you are only there cuz she is allowing you to be there---like it or not---that is what is coming out in your posts----and if that is your situation----you are in deep doo-doo


----------



## PieceOfSky

Horizon said:


> Hi pos, I can't find any thing anywhere that allows you to recover. What do I need to do?


Sorry for the delay. Had an emergency and busy trip out of town.

Here is a link from Microsoft that explains it:

Restore deleted email messages in Outlook.com - Microsoft Windows Help

But, basically, just log into hotmail/outlook account, go to the deleted folder, then scroll to the bottom center of the page and there will be a link you can click on that is titled "Recover deleted messages". If it can recover them, it will. If it can't, it can't.


Btw, just got caught up on your thread. It sounds like if she intentionally wanted to torture you now with trying to put a spin on what she has done, she couldn't do a better job at it than she's doing -- dumping it all back on you and denying the reality of it that! That's crazy talk!!!

I'm not a experienced as most folks here, but I'm guessing it remains to be seen what (some of) here true colors are here -- I'm guessing she is trying to deny TO HERSELF the horendous nature of what SHE HAS DONE, and she is denying/spinning it is just a "little" ugly detail her not-exactly-conscious brain is willing to do to protect her lies to herself.

If it were possible to reach out across the internet and give you manly handshake or pat on the back, to encourage somehow, or if it were possible to toss on her a cold bucket of water to wake her out of this sadistic nonsense, your hand/back would be sore by now and she might be looking a bit like this, dunno:

http://cdn.terriblycute.com/files/2012/04/Wet-Cats-20.jpg


It must be extremely depressing right now. Don't be hard on yourself at all. You don't deserve this. You deserve much better. You are smart, and hardworking, and you will get the love you deserve for yourself, *and the love your children deserve to see you have.* It may or may not be with her. But, you will get it eventually, after you get past all this really nasty hard stuff right behind you and right in front of you.

I'm not sure this applies to you, or even if it did it would be all that helpful in this moment, but it resonates with me and might be worth a look: No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career


----------



## PieceOfSky

Mtts said:


> I can give you a direction, the direction I would take.
> 
> Start filing divorce and don't look back. Thread makes me feel nasueas just reading it. Seriously, my opinion of course, but anyone who said "only reason you won't have an affair is no one would want you." That would be in my mind forever with that person.
> 
> Sorry to hear this but you got to know you're worth more than that.
> 
> Stay safe brother and do whats best for you and the kids. Forget her and let her live the miserable life she seems intent on living.


If and when you file, or if you consider filing, don't be trapped into thinking she will be the one to stay in the house with the kids. Talk to a lawyer, find out what is likely to happen and why.


----------



## Will_Kane

Horizon said:


> Bob and awake1,
> 
> thanks. i do appreciate the 'tough love'. Yes, I've grown flabby but truly I can feel the 'hard' man rattling the cage. I'm not making excuses here - I do have to parent my beautiful children and run this building. Do you think it is impossible for me to stay under this roof? I'm very concerned for my kids well being. I've decided to make the spare room an ongoing my nest every night and effectively be separate in the same house. I don't know what you think of that - let me know.


Good idea. It's time to stop doing what you're doing.

No more trying to reason with her.

No more arguing with her.

Time to do an in-house separation. Tell her you're done talking about it for now, her emails don't lie. Tell her you need your space to figure out what you want to do. Other than that, don't tell her what you're doing. 

Stop talking to her except about the kids and essentials and basic pleasantries. But no more talk about you and her, your relationship, your future together, or your past together.

If she says "good morning," you say "good morning." If she asks "how are you today?" you say "fine."

Take a step back and start to detach. Focus completely on your kids. Spend all your time either with them or in the spare bedroom. Stop doing family things with her and them, let her take them one day and you the next.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Horizon said:


> My partner cut loose on me when I let fly about the e-mails. Too much to go into now but more of the same "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"....all the other diversions repeated ad nauseum, outright anger, tears, telling the 3 of us to eff off under her breath and storming upstairs...


Holy crap this woman is a nightmare. Who in their right mind says this kind of stuff ... in front of her children no less. The OM she picked is just as bad. The farther away from her you can get the better, IMO. Go have a healthy life.


----------



## carpenoctem

He does not have a regular income of his own.

I presume that’s at the root of the seemingly weak-kneed responses. (Plus, her own open admission that she has no respect for him – which could also be logically traced back to his SAHD status).

Legally, she might have to pay him child support, etc. But that is at a later stage, if divorce is attempted.

*Right now, he is trying hard to be more of a man in the anthropological sense, and financial dependence on her conflicts with that terribly.*


A regular income source / job – I guess it’s near impossible to seek out, in the middle of this acid rain.

But Horizon, *please do TRY.*


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> . . . I've decided to make the spare room an ongoing my nest every night and effectively be separate in the same house. I don't know what you think of that - let me know. . . .
> 
> See, with the overwhelming facts, the feedback the articles by professionals - all this stuff about infidelity and she is still stuck i the fog. It's like she is on a small Island that is day by day being reclaimed by the ocean.


Horizon,

This is another example of how little self-esteem you have. Your partner cheats flagrantly and you are the one who retreats into a corner. Why is she not the one who relegated to the spare room? I'll tell you why. Because she holds all the cards -- she is the main breadwinner and she sticks up for herself. You are dependent on her and you let her walk all over you time and time again. She stands up for herself and you don't. She has options and you don't.

And stop kidding yourself about her being in a "fog." The only fog she's in is an alcoholic one. She knows exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it. She's cheating on you because she wants to and she can. Until that changes, don't expect her to change.

Here's the advice I gave you three weeks ago. I stand by it as the only way you are going to get your life in order:

_*Re: Where the truth lies* __ Dear Horizon,
_ _
I'm sorry but, from what you've told us, your life is a total mess. You are with a lying, cheating alcoholic who has no respect for you and for good reason. You have no independent means of support so you and your children are totally dependent on her for your well-being. Why should your WW do anything to fix her marriage? You can give her no reason to because you have nothing to offer her that she couldn't get by hiring a nanny. You can't even seriously threaten to leave her.
_ _
What you really need to do is to get a life, one in which you can support yourself, start being a proper male role-model for you children and regain your self-respect. If you do this, you may -- someday -- be in a position to insist that your wayward partner start to get her life in order (which is also a total mess). If you don't, she will eventually dump you because, once she no longer needs a "wife" to help raise her kids, she won't need you.
_ _
I hope you sort out your current marital issues but, even if you do, it will only be temporary. Your alcoholic partner will cheat on you again. So please, don't lose sight of the "big picture" which, in your case, is not a pretty one.
_ _
Good luck to you _

Nothing has changed for you because you are not changing. Do something positive in your life. Start working out and get your health back. Find full time, gainful employment. Consult an attorney to learn what your rights are if and when she decides to dump you (it's only a matter of time) or if you finally discover the courage to leave her. 

Until you do these things, you have few if any prospects of eventual happiness. Once you start, you will be amazed how much your attitude, your self-confidence and your life will improve.

*YOU'RE A MAN. START ACTING LIKE ONE.*


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Headspin said:


> I think you need to talk serious sh!t .....WITH YOURSELF
> 
> I could be wrong but if there's a man on here who thinks you can get back with this er 'person' then show me
> 
> I've never said this before but if you do get back with her then there's something about yourself you are not telling, about what kind of sh!t you need to have in your life.
> 
> I'm not criticizing you here Horizon, after all its all meant to help, but do you realize how weak willed and flimsy you come across? This is the same for her the way you come across for her too and it's the reason she has nil respect for you.
> 
> Don't get me wrong its understandable and you are justified in many feelings you have but showing how vulnerable and weak you are in the face of this "strong willed woman " bull**** is plain wrong.
> 
> Take Control
> 
> Frankly most "strong willed" people are like that 'strong willed' because most other people let them be that way - you want to shout and show how determined you are fine. I cant be bothered with you so I'll show how determined I am calmly and quietly IN MY WAY. Control and strength are shown by saying something and backing it up with unshakeable actions - just do them - you don't have to shout whilst you do them
> 
> Again I'll say this, talk to people in the same language - one that they will understand


:iagree:


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon, don't let the TAMers who question your manhood and urge you to leave influence what is in your best interests. If you have no regular income, and you are a bit overweight and not feeling confident about yourself, leaving now would be too much to bear, it is admitting defeat and you will find yourself living alone in a dingy apartment struggling, alone and without your kids. You will probably be giving your WS what she wants; you making the decision to leave, therefore she is not responsible for breaking up the family, you are. 

You are going about the whole WAR wrong, and yes you are in a war for your woman. You referred to her as a great woman, you know in the end you want her, you want her to want you, you need a REALISTIC plan to get there.

What you are doing now does not work, the wife is angry you exposed her affair and her perfect fantasy life, where she has you as the steady and the OM as the thrill ride. This is what she wants. She is not logical now, and too full of emotion to reason, STOP ENGAGING HER NOW. Resolve the whole current muck by dropping the arguments, telling her you are going nowhere, you are staying here, and you are going to remain her husband and that is that. Then just move on as best you can and instead of focusing on her, or your relationship, focus on yourself. Frankly, this will take tremendous strength, but if you are MAN ENOUGH to stand alone and learn to be happy without her IN THE MARITAL HOUSE and she senses you have moved on, you are focused on yourself, you are over her, you will set a less desparate tone for a potential reconciliation of sorts. Since you have no means of support, you need to stay in the house with your kids and hatch a LONG-TERM PLAN, and not emotionally respond to the incredible hurt you are feeling by leaving in a huff. BY the way, that will not restore your self-esteem, when you are alone in a dirty apartment without your kids and realizing your wife has completely moved on, you will see this is no victory. 

Your wife is crazy and irrational, she is a a lost cause NOW, but she may one day come around and look back at this event and realize she was CRAZY, especially if the OM will not have her, this event will eventually end. 

Reading all the upsetting emails she she sent to the OM is necessary, but not useful, in that anything she has said in these emails are not realistic, not reflections of a logical person, but someone run-amok living in la-la land. Stop reading these at this point, and instead read the reconciliation letter she sent you where by she seems a bit more "reality based" and valuing her life with you. Take that hope and run with it, if that is what you want. I believe it is. 

Currently, you are the devalued man, dis-respected: welcome to the club. Now find the value in yourself for yourself, no one can ever count on steady love from anyone other than ourselves. You can do this for yourself, and remain in the home and regain your self-respect. As far as her respecting you, who gives a ****, her respect is not worth earning, she should be trying to regain your respect, and this will become clear to her when you man-up and stop blubbering for her worthless love. 

I would say to her "I used to love and repect you, now I do not even know who you are, and I no longer care to know. However, I will remain your husband, and take of business like I always have. You have hurt me deeply, but I will get over you and the way you treated me, I really find myself not caring less about it, and caring more about myself and MY children (cut her out of your vision of an intact family). But hey, we can both agree that the new house is going to be very nice, let's look forward to that." 

Finally, go after the OM. Really berate him and take all the energy you are wasting on your discussions with your wife and take it all out on him, call him constantly, call his work, call his house, send him letters, be scary. He will start behaving differently towards your wife and it will kill the affair.


----------



## Decorum

If ever man has correctly defined your situation, then becomming stronger in your position makes sense, workout, find employment, let her see you moving on.

These are all good ideas and are long term thinking.

Just dont stay and not apply yourself.

Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tulsy

Ever-Man said:


> ...you are in a war for your woman. ...


It doesn't sound like she's worth it. I wouldn't fight for her. She sounds like a horrible wife.

I would put all of her stuff in the spare bedroom, you take over the master bedroom, change the bedroom lock, and buy a new bed that she's not allowed in. If she doesn't like it, show her the door.

Get some legal advice and file. I would also expose...don't be afraid of that POS-OM...by you not exposing, you are letting him get away without consequence, which is exactly what he wants. He deserves some suffering.

She is a liar. You cannot trust a liar. Unless you are prepared to be in a relationship with someone you always have to wonder about (what is she doing, what did she do, is she being honest, etc.), I would completely 180.


----------



## Wazza

tulsy said:


> It doesn't sound like she's worth it. I wouldn't fight for her. She sounds like a horrible wife.
> 
> I would put all of her stuff in the spare bedroom, you take over the master bedroom, change the bedroom lock, and buy a new bed that she's not allowed in. If she doesn't like it, show her the door.
> 
> Get some legal advice and file. I would also expose...don't be afraid of that POS-OM...by you not exposing, you are letting him get away without consequence, which is exactly what he wants. He deserves some suffering.
> 
> She is a liar. You cannot trust a liar. Unless you are prepared to be in a relationship with someone you always have to wonder about (what is she doing, what did she do, is she being honest, etc.), I would completely 180.


Where is your wife right now? Where will she be in two hours? Two days? Two weeks? How do you know she is not having an affair? Maybe you just haven't caught her yet.

What person doesn't lie sometimes?

There is no certainty, there are only degrees of risk. The thinking in your post is way too black and white.

Horizon's wife is a liar now. But is that the normal her?

And the ideas of hot headed confrontation, when all she has to do in retaliation is block all access to cash and literally starve him out, are possibly a tad hot headed.


----------



## Chaparral

Number one, you have started too many threads. Posters can't keep up with what is going on.

Two, you haven't read MMSLP, or NoMore Mr Nice Guy. You haven't absorbed what there is to learn in the other threads.

You have been posting long enough to KNOW the last thing you do is move out of your house or MOVE OUT OF YOUR BEDROOM. move her into the small bed. Why should the hurt party put himself out and reward the cheater. Right now she is tickled she doesn't have to look at you at night and feel guilty.


----------



## Chaparral

Here is the 180, http://www.network54.com/Forum/233195/thread/1302875291/last-1302891381/The+180 , you need to take control. Try a soft form of this until you get teh MAP out of MMSLP. Quit spinning your wheels. Do not argue. Show her no emotion. That scares them more than anything. One cold dead stare is worth a million loud, angry words. Time to show her you do not give a sh!t what she does. NEVER let her see you cry, get away from her before you do. She litterally doesn't think you could get laid in a who*rehouse. Worse cases than this have been reconciled, though I neither recommend it nor disagree with it, thats up to you. Until you get yourself under control this is just going to get worse and the outcome obvious.

I can't look back and see if this has been posted here.

She says she doesn't know what to do, read this WITH her.

(Print it out)

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.*


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## Chaparral

No matter what "progressive" thought may have anyone believe, your big problem is that women cannot respect a house husband. This is just one of many examples of that here. Thats why she says things about you not being able to get laid by the neighbor. Thats why you are in the little bed, Like a maid. It is biological. Its in her DNA it cannot be fought because it is not concious.

I saw one statistic a while back, and the divorce rate for SAHDs was astronomical.


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## Decorum

Chap.
I'm with you 100% on the house husband issue.

But maybe a little cake eating on his part, to detach, improve himself, his income, his dominance, nothing long term, just to move from a doormat, to a bear skin rug, to a live bear!

If his history is as you say then maybe he cannot pull it off anyway.

But he is in a logistical pickle ATM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

chapparal said:


> No matter what "progressive" thought may have anyone believe, your big problem is that women cannot respect a house husband. This is just one of many examples of that here. Thats why she says things about you not being able to get laid by the neighbor. Thats why you are in the little bed, Like a maid. It is biological. Its in her DNA it cannot be fought because it is not concious.
> 
> I saw one statistic a while back, and the divorce rate for SAHDs was astronomical.


I'd love to see the stat. I am not disputing it, but the underlying detail would be interesting.

My take is that being SAHD vs not is not the real issue, but rather that a dynamic of being equals is the most healthy approach. I don't believe being SAH long term is healthy for either gender. My wife is a much more interesting person for having a fulfilling career. We find it easier to relate.

Just my theory.

The reality is that OP is older, was in a white collar management role, and had been out of the workforce for some time. He was displaced and is making the best if it..he did not choose to leave work. Dunno specifics for Australia, but the truth is he may find it hard to get work. I forget your exact age OP, but the magic age is usually somewhere in the mid to late forties. I remember one UK study that put the age at 46.

Obviously this is a very simplistic overview, with lots of detail and exceptions. But the basic principle holds.

I think that what you need is a sense of strength and a purpose outside the home. Having a successful career is only one way to do that.

Just my theory. Others here will argue all that matters is bringing home more money than your wife, so she sees you as a good provider. But if you can't do that you have to look for other ways.

Hope I am right. If I retire early and my wife keeps working, we will have a period where she has most of the income. In the modern world I think many marriages face this.


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## Horizon

After some very heated e-mails I told her it was done and that I wanted to work out an amicable split. Later last night after the kids were asleep I approached her with a pen and notebook and said OK let's work on this. She fell to pieces on that.

It was a sorry sight. After she recovered we had a long talk. I gave her a copy of the "Understanding your betrayed spouse A quick reference manual" (Thanks a million chapparal). Having already read it a few times I left it with her for 30 minutes or so.

After that we talk a lot more. I told her she could sleep in the spare room for a week and she literally begged me not to demand that. I explained to her that it was how it had to be because I was through with all the talk and I felt she was not entirely remorseful. I didn't buy her protest and then I went to bed. Sometime during the night she crept back into my bed and held onto me.

So at the moment we are in this zone and I feel much more empowered. Trouble is i just don't trust her. So today I bought a VAR and I'm going to set it up this week and see what transpires. 

The money situation is secure. She can't touch shared accounts without my consent, my name is on the deed title for our property. All is well in that respect. I still feel like sh!t but a sh!t with a pair nontheless.

Thanks to all of you for your words of wisdom - to be honest I'd give us less than 50 50 to work it out. Talk soon.


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## lordmayhem

Ever-Man said:


> Many TAMers will tell you to divorce immediately, and if the marriage is OVER that is good advice, but if you have a spouse expressing remorse and love for you, there are many other options, all depend on what you want.



Saying sorry is not remorse. What she's doing is rugsweeping. Many WSs become great actors/actresses and put on the waterworks and express remorse when they aren't really remorseful.


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## Ever-Man

lordmayhem said:


> Saying sorry is not remorse. What she's doing is rugsweeping. Many WSs become great actors/actresses and put on the waterworks and express remorse when they aren't really remorseful.


What always confuses me is why the cheater will want to stay in the marriage as badly as they want to retain the affair? Why ot just move on from the marriage if the affair is so impossible to give-up? 

I have heard it compared to an addiction, which means it is inherently unhealthy, and in that scenario should a spouse who loves a cheater give up, or fight? 

I admire Horizon's strength, he is heading into the unknown and giving up a woman he clearly still wants with whom he has built a family, but the pain is too much to bear. 

WHy, when he decides to leave, is she so broken up and clinging to him? These dynamics are hard for me to reconcile with the simple act of giving up and leaving, when there are such compelling reasons to stay and fight.


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## PieceOfSky

Horizon said:


> The money situation is secure. She can't touch shared accounts without my consent,


In my locale (USA), shared bank accounts and credit accounts can easily be drained without consent from the other. Ymmv.

I'm glad you are standing up for yourself, and I'm glad you seem to be liking that feeling.


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## Decorum

Ever-Man,
If I could offer one possibility that I have observed, (may or may not be true for H's wife)

Sometimes its all about the attention, sex, excitement on the side.
The WW never expects to get caught, she is just "augmenting" her happiness.
She basically likes her life, just wants a bit more excitement.

When the affair is discovered things can get ugly but she still never intended to end it.

She never planned on leaving, so she has not emotionally prepared for the split.

Unlike an exit affair that ends an unwanted relationship/marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Decorum said:


> Ever-Man,
> If I could offer one possibility that I have observed, (may or may not be true for H's wife)
> 
> Sometimes its all about the attention, sex, excitement on the side.
> The WW never expects to get caught, she is just "augmenting" her happiness.
> She basically likes her life, just wants a bit more excitement.
> 
> When the affair is discovered things can get ugly but she still never intended to end it.
> 
> She never planned on leaving, so she has not emotionally prepared for the split.
> 
> Unlike an exit affair that ends an unwanted relationship/marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And adding to that, whoever needs or wants the marriage more has the least control. Being able to walk away is an important part of self esteem and pride. Dr. James Dobson wrote a book Love Must Be Tough all about that dynamic of human nature. Walking away is empowering and makes you much more respected.


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## warlock07

Horizon said:


> After some very heated e-mails I told her it was done and that I wanted to work out an amicable split. Later last night after the kids were asleep I approached her with a pen and notebook and said OK let's work on this. She fell to pieces on that.
> 
> It was a sorry sight. After she recovered we had a long talk. I gave her a copy of the "Understanding your betrayed spouse A quick reference manual" (Thanks a million chapparal). Having already read it a few times I left it with her for 30 minutes or so.
> 
> After that we talk a lot more. I told her she could sleep in the spare room for a week and she literally begged me not to demand that. I explained to her that it was how it had to be because I was through with all the talk and I felt she was not entirely remorseful. I didn't buy her protest and then I went to bed. Sometime during the night she crept back into my bed and held onto me.
> 
> So at the moment we are in this zone and I feel much more empowered. Trouble is i just don't trust her. So today I bought a VAR and I'm going to set it up this week and see what transpires.
> 
> The money situation is secure. She can't touch shared accounts without my consent, my name is on the deed title for our property. All is well in that respect. I still feel like sh!t but a sh!t with a pair nontheless.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for your words of wisdom - to be honest I'd give us less than 50 50 to work it out. Talk soon.


A little "maning up" and you see instant changes in her behavior. Don't take it as a sign of improvement and regress back to your older clingy desperate behavior

You did read MMSLP and NMMNG right ?


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## walkonmars

Great job Horizon!
You are on the right path. If she truly wants to work on the marriage then you should insist on AA and no more alcohol. None. No wine, beer, etc for her (and you too). 

Her alcoholic induced decisions are not reliable. Let her make some sober judgements. Keep strong man.


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## BobSimmons

A few stern words and a show of strength should not make you feel empowered. She comes to you and clings onto you is a basic show of "surrendering" herself to you, which goes totally against her actions previous.

The realization that you might mean what you say has scared her but it still doesn't have anything to do with you, so she's surrendered herself, you can bet this will swiftly be followed by more overt seduction as she tries to gain more control of the situation.

But it's funny...you told her to sleep in the room, she still didn't respect your wish for some space. Just remember that her actions previous are a strong indicator of where she was really at and who she is. Be very careful you're not lured into a false R.

Just to add I don't want to imply your wife is some fiendish schemer, there maybe a modicum of remorse and realization of the situation at hand, nor o I mean to demean the steps you have taken thus far, honestly good on you...but what are you doing should not be to manipulate her into R or to make her feel "bad" about herself so she can feel just a bit of your pain and come back to you. You should be doing this for you, so that in the future if you do want to R, you do it from a strong foundation with two people that want to work on building their marriage..not by someone afraid to be alone and just acting remorseful so things can go back to .


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## Horizon

Update - she refuses to sleep in the spare room. She's not arguing about it but has asked me to share the same bed. So we did (no sex - unlike a few nights back). I returned late from work last night so I just crashed out anyway.

I take on board everything that has been offered here. I am very much working on myself, avoiding "cling" behavior and working on and demonstrating an independent demeanor. I have had a hell of a lot of insights particularly this week how I was acting - I was doing stuff without thinking. A bit needy at certain times. Obviously another turn off.

The betrayed spouse manual has been really handy but I have emphasised that it is not a tool to smack her with but insight she needs to have into my state of mind and behavior. 

Before I recommended we split she had sent me two e-mails as a riposte to my "in your face" follow ups to finally unearthing the cheating correspondence I had first laid eyes on a month ago. As you know we had a brawl on Sunday night but it took the next day for me to gather my thoughts and express them in writing.

Because I was very direct and hardline she defaulted to defence and attack mode and it was this that lead me to go for the clean break to...well be, the tie breaker I suppose.

Bottom line - I just don't believe her and I am still going through hell about what she has done to me. Always discovering some new angle. I'll keep pushing my independence but, I repeat - I give this less than a 50% chance. Gotta fly.


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## happyman64

Horizon

The key is you made the first move. You love your wife. You just cannot live with her lies or infidelity.

Good for you.

Continue to take control.

Because I think she is starting to see the man she married. I also think she knows you are slowly detaching from her.

Keep moving forward.

HM64


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## dsGrazzl3D

Horizon said:


> Update - she refuses to sleep in the spare room. She's not arguing about it but has asked me to share the same bed. So we did (no sex - unlike a few nights back). I returned late from work last night so I just crashed out anyway.
> 
> I take on board everything that has been offered here. I am very much working on myself, avoiding "cling" behavior and working on and demonstrating an independent demeanor.
> 
> Bottom line - I just don't believe her and I am still going through hell about what she has done to me. Always discovering some new angle. I'll keep pushing my independence but, I repeat - I give this less than a 50% chance. Gotta fly.


I applaud you on how well it seems here you are dealing in truth. I am sorry that your kids have gotten hurt. I do think after you get the separation and divorce into more of a final stage her true colors will show. I think you need to keep your focus on you and you kids for the next few years. I wish you luck!


----------



## Horizon

What a day. I'm keeping up appearances so to speak but it is like my body wants to divide into a million fragments. I've had a "shocker" as we say down under. The movie in my head would not stop, I actually pulled into our driveway and cried earlier. My emotions are spanning despair to volcanic anger. 

I am so pissed off at what she has done and yet here I am keeping my composure, not sucking up to her, not cold just trying to be normal. It's weird because on one hand I'm working on Recon (and that's what she thinks), and on the other I'm plotting revenge and then speculating on how many "legs" this relationship has in it. 

I can't help feeling it is a terminal situation despite what move I make. She just acts normal - a peck on the lips, hello, goodbye. You know in one of the e-mails she sent me earlier this week (the tornado after the storm) she said the following - "You seem to be expecting me to throw myself at you and shower you in love and affection – but you can’t expect things to change overnight, they need work and we BOTH need to meet half way, not for you to sit back and expect me to fix whatever it is that you expect me to fix." This after a months worth of heavy lifting. There was so much more in that e-mail. Stuff about me thinking that because I admitted to my depression that it diminishes how I treated her (justification). My emotions so erratic that she doesn't know what is real and therefore shuts down (I think she actually believes her own marketing - self deception is key in my experience with this betrayal so far).

By the way I read some of the e-mails between the two cheaters to my brother (the only one who knows besides my partners girlfriend). He was really pissed off with me for putting him through the graphic words and more pissed off that I had kept them. He urged me to delete them pronto. I haven't done that yet.

Like I said I have a bad feeling about this but I pick myself up and dust myself off and get back on the horse.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Here's what your wife wants to do:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Ever-Man said:


> Many TAMers will tell you......


I will be so glad when you enter a thread and stop using this crutch when you have a differing opinion..

Anyway, make sure you get your head on straight Horizon. I just wanted to point out that insult about you, IMO, is also an attempt to even the playing field. It is a form of so called "reverse psychology." You are/were supposed to go out, have an affair and then throw it in her face. That way, she can take the kids or put more fault on you.


----------



## jnj express

I have a question for you---have you tossed out of your house, every and any bottle or can that contains alcohol of any sort, yet

If not why not---don't you think, that its about time BOTH, you and your wife---started to live like human beings, and not those who live on alcohol as a crutch, and end up in a drunken state, as you have many times stated in re:--YOUR WIFE

And if she brings more in---toss those out also---and do it right in front of her

What kind of a role model for your kids, is your wife---if she is drinking, every night, or coming home drunk, and then continuing to drink

I am very sure---alcohol in your situation---is a big roadblock---THAT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED


----------



## Wazza

So, you say you are separating and kick her out. She refuses, and you acquiesce.

Not good on my view. She has dismissed your wishes. Nothing is getting better.

In your shoes I would start going out each night as soon as she comes home, returning late and not sharing a bed with her. Make it clear that when you draw a line you mean it.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Horizon said:


> What a day. I'm keeping up appearances so to speak but it is like my body wants to divide into a million fragments. I've had a "shocker" as we say down under. The movie in my head would not stop, I actually pulled into our driveway and cried earlier. My emotions are spanning despair to volcanic anger.
> 
> I am so pissed off at what she has done and yet here I am keeping my composure, not sucking up to her, not cold just trying to be normal. It's weird because on one hand I'm working on Recon (and that's what she thinks), and on the other I'm plotting revenge and then speculating on how many "legs" this relationship has in it.
> 
> I can't help feeling it is a terminal situation despite what move I make. She just acts normal - a peck on the lips, hello, goodbye. You know in one of the e-mails she sent me earlier this week (the tornado after the storm) she said the following - "You seem to be expecting me to throw myself at you and shower you in love and affection – but you can’t expect things to change overnight, they need work and we BOTH need to meet half way, not for you to sit back and expect me to fix whatever it is that you expect me to fix." This after a months worth of heavy lifting. There was so much more in that e-mail. Stuff about me thinking that because I admitted to my depression that it diminishes how I treated her (justification). My emotions so erratic that she doesn't know what is real and therefore shuts down (I think she actually believes her own marketing - self deception is key in my experience with this betrayal so far).
> 
> By the way I read some of the e-mails between the two cheaters to my brother (the only one who knows besides my partners girlfriend). He was really pissed off with me for putting him through the graphic words and more pissed off that I had kept them. He urged me to delete them pronto. I haven't done that yet.
> 
> Like I said I have a bad feeling about this but I pick myself up and dust myself off and get back on the horse.


Of course, she has no responsibility for her actions it was all your fault because of your problems. What is wrong with you? Can't you see that YOU were the cause of her actions? 

She is trying to MANIPULATE YOU. Do not fall for it.

Go to Home Depot and buy a door lock for your bedroom, install it and lock it when you go to bed. You do not need to be manipulated during the night to think that she is remorseful and then during the day her stating that it was your problem that caused the affair. Until she gets it, limit your contact.

Her actions up to this time shows she is still trying to Blame Shift and Rug Sweep as others have stated.


----------



## Chaparral

Here is a link to the 180. It is designed to help you cut the ties to your wife in preparation for divorce. It is good to be familiar with even if you haven't decided to divorce. It is NOT a tool for R though it occasionally works that way.

The Healing Heart: The 180

In MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER there is a guide called the MAP. That is probably your best bet unless you decide to throw in the towel.

Here is a very, very valuable post too:

*Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


----------



## Acabado

Set up a boundarie: No alcohol allowed in the house. 
No barganing. Start with jnj express's advice.


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> What a day. I'm keeping up appearances so to speak but it is like my body wants to divide into a million fragments. I've had a "shocker" as we say down under. The movie in my head would not stop, I actually pulled into our driveway and cried earlier. My emotions are spanning despair to volcanic anger.
> 
> I am so pissed off at what she has done and yet here I am keeping my composure, not sucking up to her, not cold just trying to be normal. It's weird because on one hand I'm working on Recon (and that's what she thinks), and on the other I'm plotting revenge and then speculating on how many "legs" this relationship has in it.
> 
> I can't help feeling it is a terminal situation despite what move I make. She just acts normal - a peck on the lips, hello, goodbye. You know in one of the e-mails she sent me earlier this week (the tornado after the storm) she said the following - "You seem to be expecting me to throw myself at you and shower you in love and affection – but you can’t expect things to change overnight, they need work and we BOTH need to meet half way, not for you to sit back and expect me to fix whatever it is that you expect me to fix." This after a months worth of heavy lifting. There was so much more in that e-mail. Stuff about me thinking that because I admitted to my depression that it diminishes how I treated her (justification). My emotions so erratic that she doesn't know what is real and therefore shuts down (I think she actually believes her own marketing - self deception is key in my experience with this betrayal so far).
> 
> By the way I read some of the e-mails between the two cheaters to my brother (the only one who knows besides my partners girlfriend). He was really pissed off with me for putting him through the graphic words and more pissed off that I had kept them. He urged me to delete them pronto. I haven't done that yet.
> 
> Like I said I have a bad feeling about this but I pick myself up and dust myself off and get back on the horse.



Horizon, when my X left me for her OM (they married and now have one child) I would have been so happy if my X was saying what your wife is saying. My X basically said "get the F out, I should have never married you", etc. It sounds like you have a chance to work it out, and if you still want her, these next weeks may determine which direction you will go.

I believe one needs to determine their chances out in the world before they cut loose on a marriage that is salvageable (though In know this is not certain yet), but if your wife is a "catch", and you are unemployed and over-weight, you better be prepared to end up alone, or with a lesser woman, and in a divorced parenting situation, which really is a terrible way to raise kids.

Frankly, I think what she is saying to you is realistic; you were not meeting her needs, for whatever reason. There is a school of thought that believes affairs can be a catalyst to improve a relationship (assuming both partners are willing to work). A partner doesn't just offer his spouse a "take me as I am, or leave it" stance, but expresses a willingness to meet her half-way, as she is asking, perhaps loose some weight, or whatever. 

As hurtful and demeaning as affairs are to the BS, no spouse has a requirement to stay with someone who is not making an effort to make them happy. If you want to attempt to save what you have, throw her a bone, ask her for the list that will help improve the marriage. 

This is not to say that you need to forgive her, or be honest completely. I would still ahve one foot out the door, but give it a chance.


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## Robsia

Horizon said:


> You know in one of the e-mails she sent me earlier this week (the tornado after the storm) she said the following - "You seem to be expecting me to throw myself at you and shower you in love and affection – but you can’t expect things to change overnight, they need work and we BOTH need to meet half way, not for you to sit back and expect me to fix whatever it is that you expect me to fix."


My WH has said similar to me.

It was made clear to me that what I was doing was not working - begging him to meet my needs, asking for hugs, crying when he refused, crying when he rejected me sexually, arranging all our date nights, basically doing EVERYTHING.

I was told to stop. So I did. I stopped calling, I stopped texting; when he stood me up on a pre-arranged date night, I didn't ring him, or ask him why he hadn't come. I didn't suggest we do ANYTHING.

I am waiting with interest to see what he is going to do to work on our R. He came round with a face like thunder wanting to know why I was suddenly so reticent. So far he's managed to initiate a couple of text conversations. But then he has been in Scotland, so I can forgive him that.


----------



## aug

Horizon said:


> By the way I read some of the e-mails between the two cheaters to my brother (the only one who knows besides my partners girlfriend). He was really pissed off with me for putting him through the graphic words and more pissed off that I had kept them. He urged me to delete them pronto. I haven't done that yet.



dont delete them. you'll need them.


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## Horizon

jnj - she will not give up the booze, repeat: will not and has never acquiesced to my various attempts over the last 5 years, when i first could clearly see it was a problem, to put a stop to it or reduce the intake. So Acabado, there are places she will not go. She needs to do that - "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Wow, that's comical but you see - it has to be her doing.

Thinking about personal issues ...

I have a long term eating disorder - sneak eating & over eating which I am working on now (limited success and excluding Kilos lost due to "Affair Diet"). I also acquired Diabetes in the last 3 years and general health diminished. Old football (not just soccer but Rugby League, Rugby Union and AFL - Australian Football League or "Aussie Rules") - bad right ankle, lower back etc. Not a good look and a long climb back for me.

Along with my depression and the bodice rippers & FSOGray Trilogy and the corporate life well it was almost inevitable. In this area I accept a limited responsibility in the sense that I helped open the possibility. People will hate me saying that but it's what I believe. She always had one or more of those paperbacks lying around. 

I should add that about 18 months ago she showed me a new vibrator she had bought which was to replace one I had bought us back in 2006. We're not much into that stuff but it was fun occasionally. This new toy was an authentic looking "reproduction" compared to the straight up and down toy we used to use. It all fits (unintentional pun) - the new toy, the books, my health, the Affair. All in the last 2 years. Yes questions: Did the OM buy it....? And so what, it's just more pain. 

I digress - she has always enjoyed a drink. The first time she came to live with me she bought a six pack. This may seem odd to you but I always felt that was - a bit masculine, kind of, and well, she is a "blokey" type of woman. Definitely not a princess. No one could grow up a princess with that sort of father. In fact she is classic middle child - she has abandonment issues from both her M & F (in relation to her 2 self obsessed siblings) and was also cast into the "success" role and was the replacement son for the only boy who went right off the rails. Explains her migraines and drinking IMO. 

An insight - we both smoked up until 6 yrs ago. She was, like her father, a very heavy smoker - 40 a day. I was always giving up or smoking 20 a day. I was very proud of her determination and success in giving up the "bungers" (slang for fireworks), proud that we both did - health, finance. But...back in the day when I first started to fight with her about her drinking she said, and not for the first time - "You made me give up the **** and now drinking. What, can't I have effing anything?" My fault, just like the A is my fault.

I have been up since 4.30am (at least I had 5 hrs last night) and lying with her before I came downstairs I could hear her dreaming. What was she dreaming about - him? The thing is she still denies the "intensity" of what they had. But the texts and e-mails tell the opposite story.

Knowing her she will keep denying this to protect me and herself. It was all fantasy is the default continuing line, particularly after she "broke it off" later last and had not seen him except for this years texting - more fanatsy. Which turned out to be a lie - she had coffee with him in March. She told him 2 months ago - "You do know how much I love you, don't you?!!". All fantasy.

It got me wondering about how many people we can love at once. How humans can carry on as though they are loyal - brimming with integrity, but act corruptly simultaneously. I wondered about ownership - did my actions over many years reek of control and ownership while I remained ignorant?

Finally, it comes down to what you are prepared to live with. Someone a bit earlier suggested there was more to my behavior & character than I had revealed. Good question and true for all of us. I am acting and being much more independently minded due to this wake up call. I can guarantee that but maybe it's in my character to accept somethings others would simply not accept.

Maybe my partners screams, even again in an angry e-mail this week after our Sunday night blow up, for me to stop trying to change her is part of the lesson. I believe she should behave differently with her drinking and her spending and her denials and "fantasy" BS. But she hasn't changed anything - so far. How much are you prepared to put up with is a good question.


----------



## Horizon

aug said:


> dont delete them. you'll need them.


My thoughts entirely


----------



## sandc

One day in the distant future you'll show those emails to her and she'll be horrified.


----------



## jnj express

She has her alcohol, and she has her lover---

And you guys have children growing up in this situation

Where I live Child Protective services---would be banging on the door

You pour beer all over her---she drinks to a stage of passing out, somewhat of a total mess

---and if she has been drinking for a long period of time---her alcohol intake tolerance must be pretty high---I wonder, what her LIVER, looks like---it must be pretty black, by now----how the F, long do you think she is gonna live and be a decent/viable/productive mother, under these circumstances

You F'ing tell her---she wants to have a mge, and family---the alcohol STOPS---whether she likes it or not---and in all actuality, she needs to go to a clinic, and dry out---but since she is your only source of income---I guess that ain't gonna happen---I am sure alcohol, also adds to her wanting/ability to seek and deal with a/her lover---so there is another reason for the alcohol to go

You got one very large passel of problems---good luck to you----------you do need to do a very strong 180, stop allowing her to manipulate you, make her stop the alcohol altogether, and make sure the A., is/has stopped---I guess that is enuff for now---that is actually enuff for a LIFETIME


----------



## Horizon

jnj,

the affair is over. There has been no PA since last Sept. However there was the texting this year which has also finished. I warned him off. I know what you are thinking and that is why I invested in the VAR - which will record all day.

Correction - she never drinks to passing out with 2 notable exceptions at party's about 2 years apart. You wouldn't know she was drinking most of the time. It's very measured, she doesn't get smashed. I hate it just the same.

We actually have a very civilised home. Not without arguments from time to time and a few beauties in the last month obviously. Based on the intensity of these we made some basic revelations about the A. But the kids are well looked after and loved without condition.

The 'brew' incident was not witnessed by the kids. It shouldn't have happened and yes the cops could have been involved but we don't normally have incidents like that. I have never hurt her before - it was out of character but unavoidable at that moment in time. Sometimes people need to work things out themselves. Trust me, Family Services in Australia are dealing with stuff is almost unmentionable compared to a beer shower.

Alcohol did play a part. She would have been at least "half stung" the first time and I know she'd had a few before the 2nd time. The lunch time "catch-ups" did not to my knowledge feature alcohol.

I have given up trying to stop her drinking. She has agreed to cut back and I have seen some evidence of that but not much to be honest. As I have said I give us 50-50 if that for this to workout. As for now I'm keeping my distance - no physical shenanigans though we are in the same bed, just focus on the kids and myself but also not being cold to her to the point where it becomes another problem. We will see what happens.


----------



## jnj express

Look if she got multiple DUI's---or caused an accident---and a judge sent her to a rehab, and said no more alcohol---or a Dr---told her she was gonna die if she didn't quit----WOULD SHE KEEP ON DRINKING

I would think if a H---told her---he would end the mge---if she didn't stop the alcohol---that should have some effect on her

I promise you, your kids know what is happening, and they know about the alcohol----I won't say anymore---its your life, your wife!!!!


----------



## Wazza

jnj express said:


> Look if she got multiple DUI's---or caused an accident---and a judge sent her to a rehab, and said no more alcohol---or a Dr---told her she was gonna die if she didn't quit----WOULD SHE KEEP ON DRINKING
> 
> I would think if a H---told her---he would end the mge---if she didn't stop the alcohol---that should have some effect on her
> 
> I promise you, your kids know what is happening, and they know about the alcohol----I won't say anymore---its your life, your wife!!!!


If she's a serious alcoholic, then threatening to leave might not make any difference. Someone very close to me has a serious drinking problem and he has been through far more than that without stopping.


----------



## Horizon

After holding the fort valiantly I must report that I was breached and some physical activity was thrust upon me. I'm picturing Sylvester the cat's son with a paper bag over his head - "oh the shame".

However I can also report that the physical activity was bland. I am told that it is all for me because it is what I need right now and I am further told that my partner is not able to "get into it" because she feels guilt. 

Previously, closer to DDay, when the last physical activity occurred, I was informed that it was a little early and we wont be doing some things because her head "wasn't into it".

After the activity with the mannequin last night I decided and informed my partner that there would be no more activity. I don't know what you lot enjoy but most of the pleasure I have derived form sex has been to get my partner off. I love it when she cums!

Well, it isn't happening and i think it is pretty clear she has lost that "loving feeling" particularly in light of the steamy sex she was enjoying with the snake. That would be the sex that was described as boring and meaningless.

So I have given her an ultimatum, in a manner of speaking. I will stick it out for a period of time with no pressure, no sex, just raising the kids and keeping a friendly atmosphere under our roof and seeing what transpires. 

If the she can't get it back then it is finito because it is only a matter of time that both of us will seek it somewhere - tick, tick, tick....


----------



## BobSimmons

Horizon said:


> After holding the fort valiantly I must report that I was breached and some physical activity was thrust upon me. I'm picturing Sylvester the cat's son with a paper bag over his head - "oh the shame".
> 
> However I can also report that the physical activity was bland. I am told that it is all for me because it is what I need right now and I am further told that my partner is not able to "get into it" because she feels guilt.
> 
> Previously, closer to DDay, when the last physical activity occurred, I was informed that it was a little early and we wont be doing some things because her head "wasn't into it".
> 
> After the activity with the mannequin last night I decided and informed my partner that there would be no more activity. I don't know what you lot enjoy but most of the pleasure I have derived form sex has been to get my partner off. I love it when she cums!
> 
> Well, it isn't happening and i think it is pretty clear she has lost that "loving feeling" particularly in light of the steamy sex she was enjoying with the snake. That would be the sex that was described as boring and meaningless.
> 
> So I have given her an ultimatum, in a manner of speaking. I will stick it out for a period of time with no pressure, no sex, just raising the kids and keeping a friendly atmosphere under our roof and seeing what transpires.
> 
> If the she can't get it back then it is finito because it is only a matter of time that both of us will seek it somewhere - tick, tick, tick....


Doomed to failure. And doing it for the kids will just dredge up more bitterness in the long run. 

So you told her you're doing away with sex. She's not into you because she missing the hot passionate sex she had with OM, over time what do you think is going to happen? She's going to resent you not suddenly awaken to discover some secret passion for you, and in her mind the memories of that great sex she had will just intensify her desires either for him or finding it outside the marriage again.
Removing the sex, she'll only find solace in the one addiction she has, the bottle.


----------



## Horizon

But Bob, she is putting on this BS about it's all 4 me and blah blah blah. Let me give you more graphic detail. I'm on the job and there is a little bit of interference from our kids who are not quite settled and then when that is sorted I can see she is just going through the motions. 

I'm not enjoying it Bob and then she starts to get impatient and gets a bit attitudinal and you know why Bob? Because she has knocked off almost another half bottle of the fire water and now she is just plain tired.

So after our daughter suddenly bounds down stairs looking for her headphones and putting on a scene for 3 minutes before leaving (we are on the lounge suite) my partner has this glum annoyed look on her face. Game over. So I smash my hoody into the couch and she exits up stairs to bed chased by a few choice words like "if it was the effing snake you'd be...."

Then I have myself a drink and calm down and compose a letter to her which says that there will be no action if it's going to be all about me. Further, how disappointed I was that on the same day that we installed a new bed, built it together, and had a general all round good day that you avoided a great opp to bond / recon.

Instead you chose the bottle and that says mountains. No reply as at 24 hours later.


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## bfree

If you are committed to reconciliation I strongly advise that you do not take sex off the table. There are chemical compounds in a mans semen that bond the woman to him over time. By refusing to have sex with her she will not bond to you and attraction will never return. I suggest you take a different approach. Stop caring if she has an orgasm. Think of it as her problem. Believe it or not it might actually make you appear more attractive to her.


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## Will_Kane

Horizon said:


> But Bob, she is putting on this BS about it's all 4 me and blah blah blah. Let me give you more graphic detail. I'm on the job and there is a little bit of interference from our kids who are not quite settled and then when that is sorted I can see she is just going through the motions.
> 
> I'm not enjoying it Bob and then she starts to get impatient and gets a bit attitudinal and you know why Bob? Because she has knocked off almost another half bottle of the fire water and now she is just plain tired.
> 
> So after our daughter suddenly bounds down stairs looking for her headphones and putting on a scene for 3 minutes before leaving (we are on the lounge suite) my partner has this glum annoyed look on her face. Game over. So I smash my hoody into the couch and she exits up stairs to bed chased by a few choice words like "if it was the effing snake you'd be...."
> 
> Then I have myself a drink and calm down and compose a letter to her which says that there will be no action if it's going to be all about me. Further, how disappointed I was that on the same day that we installed a new bed, built it together, and had a general all round good day that you avoided a great opp to bond / recon.
> 
> *Instead you chose the bottle *and that says mountains. No reply as at 24 hours later.


*Alcoholics always choose the bottle*. She drinks alcohol to the detriment of her relationship with you. Does she drink at work? At lunch? Does she drink every day? And she refuses to give it up for even a day?

It is not possible for your wife to say, "Horizon, I know you don't like it when I drink, so today I am not drinking"?

Alcohol is a drug. It is an addiction. I know some people who would have a hard time giving up coffee, which contains caffeine, also a drug (except caffeine doesn't cause the same problems as alcohol). People joke about their coffee addiction. Not about their alcohol addiction.

Alcoholics make bad decisions.

Getting pass-out drunk two times in two years is not normal, especially for a mature woman who knows the effect of alcohol as opposed to a teenager who has never had a drink before.


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## Will_Kane

I agree, don't deny your wife sex. 

If you are trying to reconcile, sex is a normal part of a marriage. You don't quit because she's not into it one night. Keep at it, it either will improve or it will not, but you just can't cut it off because it didn't work the first time you tried in a while.

Try to do it as something enjoyable for you, give her some time. Sex is mostly mental. Poor self image and guilt can affect it, make you less enthusiastic about it, even if your partner is super hot, sexy, and into it.


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## carmen ohio

Dear Horizon,

You have so many problems to deal with, it's hard to know where you should begin. Consider:

- Your partner is an alcoholic

- She is also a cheater

- She is incapable or for unwilling to seriously address either of those problems

- You are emotionally dependent on her (co-dependent)

- You are financially dependent on her

- You have health problems

- Your children are being exposed to all sorts of unhealthy behaviors by you and your partner which is certainly harming their emotional development and will likely have lasting effects on their ability to have normal relationships and happy lives

- Do to all of the foregoing issues, your ability to make rational decisions and to take action to protect yourself and your children is seriously compromised.

I wish there was a simple piece of advice that I or one of the other posters on TAM could give you to solve all your problems but, truthfully, there isn't. What is certain is that, getting from where you are to were you need to be to provide yourself and your children with a healthy environment will be a long process (taking years) and require major changes in yours and their lives (including in all likelihood separating from your partner until she starts to get treatment for her alcoholism).

In order to do this, you need help. Among other things, you would be wise to contact Al-Anon and start getting advice on how to deal with your partner's drinking. You should also seek individual counseling to begin to deal with your psychological issues like co-dependency. You also need medical help for your diabetes and other health issues. Your children probably also need counseling. I believe you've said that you have already sought matrimonial legal advice but, if you haven't, then you also need to do this.

I've given you the "man up" speech a couple of times before but realize now that what you need is much more fundamental, involving individual advice and support -- the kind that you can only get from one-on-one engagement with mental health professionals and substance abuse experts.

It is important for you to realize the lasting harm that your family situation is doing to your children. For their sakes, please get help. Don't try to fix this on your own or based on the advice of strangers on the internet (however experienced and well-meaning they may be).


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## GutPunch

Horizon said:


> After some very heated e-mails I told her it was done and that I wanted to work out an amicable split. Later last night after the kids were asleep I approached her with a pen and notebook and said OK let's work on this. She fell to pieces on that.
> 
> It was a sorry sight. After she recovered we had a long talk. I gave her a copy of the "Understanding your betrayed spouse A quick reference manual" (Thanks a million chapparal). Having already read it a few times I left it with her for 30 minutes or so.
> 
> After that we talk a lot more. I told her she could sleep in the spare room for a week and she literally begged me not to demand that. I explained to her that it was how it had to be because I was through with all the talk and I felt she was not entirely remorseful. I didn't buy her protest and then I went to bed. Sometime during the night she crept back into my bed and held onto me.
> 
> So at the moment we are in this zone and I feel much more empowered. Trouble is i just don't trust her. So today I bought a VAR and I'm going to set it up this week and see what transpires.
> 
> The money situation is secure. She can't touch shared accounts without my consent, my name is on the deed title for our property. All is well in that respect. I still feel like sh!t but a sh!t with a pair nontheless.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for your words of wisdom - to be honest I'd give us less than 50 50 to work it out. Talk soon.


I'm lurking. Your first post that makes me smile. You don't have a marriage until 
she respects you as a man. 

This was a step in the right direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Horizon

Congratulations.

You are thinking with your brain and your balls.

Keep moving forward.

Nice way to set your boundaries....

HM64


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## Shaggy

Alcohol is a depressant as well as a relaxant. It reduces feelings and will dull things. Your partner not getting into it because she is drunk is an example of that.

Yes there is the whole set of issues with the affair going on, but the booze is in your case actually holding her back.

If you want to R, then do not hold back the sex, instead see if you can do it every 2-3 days and finish in her. Semen contains mood enhances that will affect her positively, but on going exposure is needed. It's natures little trick to keep women coming back,

As for you, have you read MMSL by Kay Athol? If not get it and read it. Get busy on yourself.


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## PieceOfSky

carmen ohio said:


> It is important for you to realize the lasting harm that your family situation is doing to your children. For their sakes, please get help. Don't try to fix this on your own or based on the advice of strangers on the internet (however experienced and well-meaning they may be).


Horizon --

Here are my thoughts, take what you want:

Your partner's alcoholism alone is not something you should expect yourself to "solve" on your own without the help of a well-experienced counselor, and without face-to-face support form a group of folks going through/been through similar struggles (al-anon, acoa, etc.). It's a nasty problem that will resist your relatively uninformed/unsupported attempts to wrestle it to the ground.

As someone who grew up in a home with "relatively mild" alcohol (and cheating) problems, I can say its effects on kids can be pretty hard. I don't drink and I don't cheat -- I've seen first hand the nasty-a** pain that can cause. But, I've had my share of problems, probably stemming from the habits I formed trying to cope with what sh*t i breathed in the house on a daily basis.

Like the old PSA commercial a few decades ago said (was about getting checked for hypertension, or something like that):

"If you won't do it for yourself, do it for the ones you love."

I'm sure you love your kids.


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## Horizon

Here is the truth.

I exaggerated her "falling to pieces" when I said we were done. Every thing else is true but she didn't beg me not to sleep in the spare room - she protested one hell of a lot. She didn't actually go to the spare room i discovered. She stayed down stairs. Later she tried to cuddle me but I pulled away.

I exaggerated this to come across as a stronger man than I was. No, I didn't fall apart or anything like that it is just that no matter what I have done since DDay this woman can only give so much. The idea that she is going to fall apart, beg, be super remorseful is not going to happen. 

She is doing stuff like making great meals this weekend just gone and speaking soothingly and being tender and trying to beas normal as possible with the kids in mind. I keep going from one extreme to the other on this rollercoaster. She well knows why but the very thing in me she created is the thing she is finding a bit hard to deal with.

There is too much to be managed around here for me to do a 180 or depart or whatever. I'm talking primarily about the kids - i'm stuck. If I was simply the chief breadwinner I probably would have a better bargaining position. I'm sorry but the fact is I seems to be always fighting a rear guard battle.

For those blokes & blokettes who are pissed off with my lies about the ultimatum - I did put it to her and in the end the response was. "NO! we are not giving up on this! We are going to fight bloody hard to save this. Even my ultimatum was undermined by a very powerful statement from her. I mean how do I comeback from that?

To be honest it is like I am a little boy in a man's body who is saying make me feel alright. Shakespeare's "sound and fury signifying nothing". I just dunno.

Days later, Saturday night, we had sex and as I said it was mundane and interrupted by the kids and I was struggling to get excited. A symptom of this is a delayed ability to orgasm I noticed - but I'm not worried about that though I could see the prolonging of the act was annoying her. Which is why I snapped and said "No sex!"

You see the contradiction? This is all for you because you need this, I'm not able to get into it with you but have your way because you deserve it - oh and by the way, don't take too long. OK, I'm reading too much into it? Just get on with it and take what's offered or I could be creating more problems - is that it?

Right, I'll now have to do an about face and reverse my messages to her about no sex and tell her I have had a change of mind and that now I'd like to have sex as much as possible and I'll make sure I "don't dilly dally on the way". 

While I'm at it, should I also withdraw my detailed requests for the truth about the emotional and physical relationship with her and the snake. I've refuted everything she has downplayed and copied her on his & her e-mails with my critique of them in red. My critique was simply a way to underscore the intensity and to ask her to stop downplaying it / rugsweeping and be honest. Is this just unnecessary self flagellation? Do I stop getting into the nitty gritty?

Well there you have it. I worked a 12 hour shift on Sunday (yesterday) and after the wonderful roast dinner we finally talked, albeit briefly, and she announced that she had read all my messages and she would like to send me a detailed response tomorrow from work. 

She agrees my idea of e-mails after discussion is actually a good way to say some of those very difficult things and reduces the chance of a blow up in earshot of the kids. So, she is going to respond to my "no sex" & "the truth about the expressions of love and the so called boring sex with the snake" e-mails. This will probably be more rugsweeping.

In the meantime I will have to come up with a new approach "having considered my physical needs to the exclusion of your own, as you so rightly pointed out, and giving consideration to the potency of my semen and the role it will play in our reconciliation I have decided to reverse my position on this and would like sex as frequently as you can manage. While on the topic of positions...."

And then there is the drinking....oh boy.


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## warlock07

> For those blokes & blokettes who are pissed off with my lies about the ultimatum - I did put it to her and in the end the response was. "NO! we are not giving up on this! We are going to fight bloody hard to save this. Even my ultimatum was undermined by a very powerful statement from her. I mean how do I comeback from that?


There was another poster who's wife similarly very big on words but had few actions t.o show for. They are divorcing now. Cantthinkstraight. Maybe you should read his thread to have an idea on how this will turn out. Words mean nothing if they are not backed up by actions


I also disagree with the posts that recommend you to continue having sex. No, not right now. Until she can start respecting you, having sex will be degrading yourself.


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## LongWalk

Ask her if she didn't drink could she stand you?

And if she keeps drinking can you stand her?

In more than one CWI thread alcohol is a big problem. Shamwow's ex, and Eric (number) are both noteworthy. And there's is thread by a musician whose wife was barmaid and oh, yeah the kindergarten teacher drank hard and fell for the heroin addict, all four had to deal with alcohol problems that contributed the breakdown of their marriages. In fact, at some level part of the betrayal was a preference for the hard drinking lifestyle.


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## jnj express

If you 2 can't F'ing talk face to face with each other----WHY THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN MARRIED

This mge is dead---and she will cheat again---and you unfortunately are gonna do nothing about it

Stay for the kids and enjoy being a roommate---there is nothing more----sad to say


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## phillybeffandswiss

You are in R right?

So, your idea is to deny something she is already withholding from you. Now, who wins in that situation?

If I do not want to clean the house, my wife yells at me and says "fine, you don't have to but in a few months <insert ultimatum>," what am I going to do? Heck what are most people going to do?

They are going to wait and see what you do next time or see if you really will follow through. Meanwhile, for a period of time, I am not cleaning the house. So, I got my way.


Cleaning house=sex in your case. To clarify, I wouldn't have played that card. I would have set ground rules, boundaries and explained that sex is part of a marriage.


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## Horizon

We do talk face to face and in detail but invariably there are issues that are not discussed or clarified. The e-mails are a way to deal with them and also to extract some heat because of the kids. My son asks me every night before bed to please not argue with Mum. At the height of an argument recently he slapped his hands to his head and said "I'm going to kill myself". He's 9. That is the second time in about 2 years I have heard him say that when the arguments got intense. 

No he's not f**ked up - we talk with great compassion to him and his sister when things have got like that between us. We always reassure them about our commitment to them and the love we have for them and we now actively avoid heated clashes. In the last 5 weeks that has been a little hard but life is not perfect and even a child has to learn that.

I have addressed the issue about sex this morning. No problems. It was a ham-fisted way to take control. Unlike some here I agree with you and further I have decided to continue forward working on this and being a partner and seeing where this takes us. 

Within myself I am getting fitter and sussing out (finding out) more work. I reckon I will have a pretty clear idea where this is headed by the end of 2013.


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## Will_Kane

If you want more enthusiasm during sex, call her out on it DURING sex - "hey, you with me here or not?" And if not, then, "I'm not interested in pity sex and you asking 'are you done yet?' isn't much of a turn on."

Face it head on when it happens.


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## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> We do talk face to face and in detail but invariably there are issues that are not discussed or clarified. The e-mails are a way to deal with them and also to extract some heat because of the kids. My son asks me every night before bed to please not argue with Mum. At the height of an argument recently he slapped his hands to his head and said "I'm going to kill myself". He's 9. That is the second time in about 2 years I have heard him say that when the arguments got intense.
> 
> No he's not f**ked up - we talk with great compassion to him and his sister when things have got like that between us. We always reassure them about our commitment to them and the love we have for them and we now actively avoid heated clashes. In the last 5 weeks that has been a little hard but life is not perfect and even a child has to learn that.
> 
> I have addressed the issue about sex this morning. No problems. It was a ham-fisted way to take control. Unlike some here I agree with you and further I have decided to continue forward working on this and being a partner and seeing where this takes us.
> 
> Within myself I am getting fitter and sussing out (finding out) more work. I reckon I will have a pretty clear idea where this is headed by the end of 2013.



I am glad you are going to work on your marriage. Your situation is like many: multiple issues are converging and you are juggling "fixing" these issues while you are still trying to maintain some order. Life is hard and messy, that is the only "truth" we all encounter. 

If you were the primary bread-winner and had a high level of desirable qualities to find another quality mate, your strategy might be different, but you don't (at least not now), and therefore staying and working on this relationship (in light of the kids, no less) is a reasonable decision. 

Since you never respond to my posts, I will be brief in my last post to you. Solve your issues with your wife ONE issue at a time. Forget the drinking, the affair, the sex-life, the offering of your "bonding sperm", the loosing of the weight, the flushing out of the details of the affair, etc. etc. etc. You need focus, right now, on ONE issue. Does she want to work on the marriage? Get that on the table in a fully conscious manner. 

Do you still love me and do you still want to have a life with me? This is a potent question, and while you and the W are pushing-pulling still, get this ONE ISSUE on the table, and resolve it. I believe you both want to work on the marriage, and indeed be happily married. If she says "yes" to wanting to work on the marriage, you say "yes", tell her you love her, forgive her, and tell her you want a fresh start. Look into her eyes and hold her lovingly, clear your heart of any anger and enmity, and let her "feel" this pure love and acceptance. To fully forgive and FORGET and make yourself vulnerable again takes a strong man, and while there may be no "consequence", or "recompense" for the infidelity, there need not be a DIRECT consequence (has there not been enough already) when you finally decide to move forward. 

Make it simple, tell you want to "love, and be loved". Start there.


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## jnj express

And do we just forget the fact---that ANOTHER MAN WAS INSIDE OF HIS WIFE----THAT ANOTHER MAN HAD HIS HANDS ALL OVER HIS WIFE-----THAT HIS WIFE WILLINGLY WANTED/PARTICIPATED/INVITED THOSE ACTIONS

Is that all just pushed aside---what does Horizon---do about his sub--conscious---or maybe you just forget, that the sub--conscious does fight the betrayed tooth and nail, to remind him of what has been done to him----very possibly for the rest of his life----do we just forget about all of that


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## Robsia

^Yup, that's the hardest part all right. Even when things are going okay, I still can't stop myself remembering that my husband willingly, happily, had sex with another woman, that she sucked him off, that he was inside her. And not only that, that he told her he loved her, that he would wait for her as long as it took. That he was making dates with her and thinking about fvcking her while our four-year-old daughter was in hospital on a drip, that he was in contact with her on my 40th birthday, during my party, that he was fitting in our anniversary dinner between dates with her - during which he picked a fight and we ended up not having sex - on our ANNIVERSARY.

It makes me feel sick.

But these are the things we need to deal with if we choose to R. R is far far harder than D. If you D you don't have to forgive.


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## Wazza

jnj express said:


> And do we just forget the fact---that ANOTHER MAN WAS INSIDE OF HIS WIFE----THAT ANOTHER MAN HAD HIS HANDS ALL OVER HIS WIFE-----THAT HIS WIFE WILLINGLY WANTED/PARTICIPATED/INVITED THOSE ACTIONS
> 
> Is that all just pushed aside---what does Horizon---do about his sub--conscious---or maybe you just forget, that the sub--conscious does fight the betrayed tooth and nail, to remind him of what has been done to him----very possibly for the rest of his life----do we just forget about all of that


No. But it happened, and you can't change that.

Some people try to work through it, for others it is a deal breaker.


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## Horizon

These last few posts have really nailed it for me considering what has happened in the last 24 hours.

jnj express - i feel all that anger and all that pain so many times during the day and night that I want to disappear. jnj, we don't ever forget we find, with time, a way to cope. That special place which she allowed some piece of sh!t to play in has been desecrated but I have to find a way to put that awful truth aside and re-sanctify it. Not just the physical but the psychological.

Ever-man, sorry I have not responded directly to you bro, it was not intentional. I really appreciate what you have written and it is prescient given the talk I had with my partner last night. Don't make it your last - TAM has been a place of knowledge & security thanks to people like you.

It started last night with me going on a 5km walk, which bothered my son no end (he's so sensitive to the status quo). After the kids were in bed we talked for 2 hours.

She very much wants to work on our relationship (de-facto 18 years - not married, both previously divorced with no kids. Just haven't bothered)

There was a huge amount of honesty last night and not without a few tears. I didn't have much as I had spent half my walk going through what I guess was grief and purging. I felt great when I got back home. She was tuned right into me and so we talked and talked. 

She had never expressed so much regret, she apologised for the really nasty remarks which she confessed were said purely to hurt me at the height of bad blood. She said again, and not for first time that she wished she had not started up with this fool.

I got a lot more detail about the time-line, how it came about, his "technique" so to speak. By that I mean how he cast his net and not forgetting how she was primed to jump into it. If not him it would have been someone else.

She cannot come at the more graphic, self flagellation detail I want. Not now anyway, but I am weening myself off that anyway. As for the drinking it is something she has got to do. I can't help her with that. I've tried but she has to make that journey.

I have also just about given up on trying to ween her off the overt spending. But I have warned her that our finances, our "buffer" (available funds) is heading south again. She admitted she has a problem in this area which stems back to a childhood of having nothing - she wants our kids to have everything which I have warned her many times is a grave mistake.

Example - she returned from work last night with an IPOD nano (2nd hand apparently - it looks new) for my son who has been up in arms since his sister received an android tablet for her birthday. She got this to tide him over until he can have a tablet in December. See the problem - but it's her problem even though it affects us all in the long run.

These are the things she accuses me of trying to "change her" about her. It's a zero sum game and I have to live with it until critical mass or she somehow miraculously changes.

But the fact is I love the woman and she has gone to great lengths - despite the deception and humiliation of her affair - to express and demonstrate her love for me. I did an about face on the no sex rule which some here agreed I should reverse - I was shooting from the hip on that one. And she doesn't want it that way either.

Yes she wants a life with me and I want that with her. I have told her quite frankly and even again last night that I want a strong loving, emotional and intimate relationship. I deserve it and I will eventually have - if it can't be with her it will be with someone else, someday. She wants to be that woman. 

Last night we re-connected, we truly engaged each other "upstairs" and laid a lot of stuff on the table. We covered a hell of a lot from the past, we dealt with the present and talked about the future. 

It's not ideal but we are talking the same language. I know there are plenty of blokes here who have been hurt themselves and would get medieval on her but as I said I love her. 

Don't get me wrong - the hurt, the questioning, the doubt, the suspicion lingers but I absolutely have to get past that and go with this and try and make it work. last night was an important step in that direction.


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## happyman64

Good update Horizon.

Just the fact you both communicated with each other and were honest with each other is a good step.

Now hold her feet to the fire.

Set your boundaries and make it clear what the consequences will be if it (lying or cheating) happens again.

The key is communication.

And none of our methods are perfect because each relationship is different.

But when both parties are honest, respect for each other is present then anything is possible.

No medieval methods are needed. Just good old fashioned hard work.....

Keep going.

HM64


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## MattMatt

Horizon said:


> We do talk face to face and in detail but invariably there are issues that are not discussed or clarified. The e-mails are a way to deal with them and also to extract some heat because of the kids. My son asks me every night before bed to please not argue with Mum. At the height of an argument recently he slapped his hands to his head and said "I'm going to kill myself". He's 9. That is the second time in about 2 years I have heard him say that when the arguments got intense.
> 
> No he's not f**ked up - we talk with great compassion to him and his sister when things have got like that between us. We always reassure them about our commitment to them and the love we have for them and we now actively avoid heated clashes. In the last 5 weeks that has been a little hard but life is not perfect and even a child has to learn that.
> 
> I have addressed the issue about sex this morning. No problems. It was a ham-fisted way to take control. Unlike some here I agree with you and further I have decided to continue forward working on this and being a partner and seeing where this takes us.
> 
> Within myself I am getting fitter and sussing out (finding out) more work. I reckon I will have a pretty clear idea where this is headed by the end of 2013.


Your son expressed the intention to kill himself and you can say: "But he's not f**ked up"?

*I beg to differ. If he expresses an intention to self-harm or to kill himself then, clearly, he is "f**ked up" and you have got to address this matter urgently.*


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## carpenoctem

^^^ Ditto.


Horizon:

*A nine-year old child thinking killing himself is an escape from life’s problems* – is a VERY serious issue, Horizon. I was stunned to read that. There are so many threads on TAM where children are caught in the cross-fire, but I have not come across a SINGLE ONE where a child reacted thus.

*Chances of him turning into a suicidal adolescent are high. * And in adolescence, consequential thinking is feeble, and they tend to act upon instincts / emotions too quickly. 

Please factor that in. Maybe he should have counseling even before you and her.

He seems to have internalized YOUR (his parents’) trauma too much. I don’t think you should optimistically overlook it, and assume that if you and the wife reconcile and get to a better place, so will he, *automatically.*

Just an opinion.





If you do manage to reconcile, *please don’t side-track the need for you to have your own income source eventually.* So that, if the Reconciliation fizzles out / if she repeats the offense, you will not have to reconcile again out of despondency (I am presuming that your current decision to reconcile is to a great extent dependent on her being the earning member of the family). I do not mean to offend / insult, Sir. I am saying this because I really feel for your situation. *You need to become self-dependent, as an insurance policy against a future with her.*


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## jnj express

Hey Horizon---if you do one thing---make sure---that you have and KEEP ON having these conversations, at least 3 half hours a week----FROM NOW ON---where everything goes on the table, and it all gets discussed, and hopefully resolved!!!!!!


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## Horizon

We have talked about and directly to our son tonight. You are both right it is not to be ignored. We have always spoken to him directly and in respect of his age. I asked him about this 2 years ago but he brushed it off. There has been no other signs or symptoms since then. Both times happened at the height of a heated argument between us. The arguments are over now.

Tonight was different. He said that he thought of that outcome (killing himself) when he realised that he might not have both of us under the same roof. Yes, it is a heavy thing for a 9 yr old to say. So I'm talking to my psychologist tomorrow morning to see what he recommends. For what it's worth he's not a glum kid - he's sharp and loves his sport but we'll have a closer look now. Thanks for your concern - I wasn't meaning to be flippant.

You do wonder why you even bother with relationships sometimes, particularly with a shock like this. But for us there seems to be enough glue there to keep us together - however I naturally have those daily moments of doubt. She comes home from work seemingly unaffected by anything where I have been on the emotional roller coaster all day. Today was worse than yesterday. That is the nature of it. 

I was thinking of creating another thread for this next question - it will depend on the feedback -

The main thing I'm having trouble coping with, above all others, is the mental pictures of my partner doing it with this tool. Added to that is all kind of graphic imaginings about the lead up on the first night, the conversation, the first move, the intensity (so to speak) and the various meetings after that - even the winding down Every bloody atom of it!

It is driving me into a pit which I climb out of pretty quick but which, on days like today, keeps hammering me back down.

The thing is it leads to a million questions and all of these answers will hurt me. That's why I call it "self flagellation". That's what it is. She has said she will try and answer everything. Do I want that? Yes actually - I mean, as if I believe that the sex they had was dull. Just like she only pecked him on the cheek. Sure!

Is this normal? Is it sick? I told her it was the disease she gave me because fellas & fellets, that's exactly what it is, an awful debilitating disease which I have had for 5 weeks today.


----------



## Robsia

^It is normal for a BS and no it is not sick.

It seems illogical that we should want details which we know will hurt us, details which fuel the mind movies which cause us so much pain.

But we do.

It's two months on for me and these thoughts are so bad I'm beginning to think I won't ever be able to cope with it.


----------



## Chaparral

The more details you get the more you have to get over. Jmho


----------



## Horizon

But the less we know the more we imagine - maybe I'll just keep away from it....I just have to know. This whole shebang is terrifying really. Shame on her for not picturing the fallout. The fog must be all consuming to completely obliterate consequences. But it meant nothing it was dull. 

"One time he didn't come" - that was meant to make me feel better. He couldn't climax - it must have been all the traffic driving by that darkened corner of the carpark at the time. I feel better.


----------



## Horizon

I'm having a couple of drinks tonight - F**KERS!!!!


----------



## Horizon

chapparal said:


> The more details you get the more you have to get over. Jmho


Hi chapparel, did u mean IMHO?


----------



## LetDownNTX

Same thing...In my humble opinion, just my humble opinion


----------



## Horizon

LetDownNTX said:


> Same thing...In my humble opinion, just my humble opinion


Thankyou young lady! and yes I respect big butts enormously


----------



## LetDownNTX

Horizon said:


> Thankyou young lady! and yes I respect big butts enormously


:lol:


----------



## sandc

The details can be a two-edge sword. It will hurt because you are hearing her describe doing something that she loved doing at the time and will hurt you intensely. But at the same time sometimes the reality isn't as graphic or amazing as it was made out to be in your head. Some BS's have found that what actually happened wasn't as "bad" (notice the use of quotes) as they had imagined.

I think if you're going to have mind movies (which you will either way) it's better to base them off factual data than fanciful imaginings. JMHO - Just My Honest Opinion


----------



## carpenoctem

[QUOTE=Horizon;1674297
"One time he didn't come"
UNQUOTE


yeah. And she probably came home and snapped at you, in response.


----------



## jnj express

This is part of the war you will fight with your sub---conscious, quite possibly the rest of your life----it will in time become less, and less, hopefully---but as long as you chose to R---the trigger is right there in front of you every day----you just have to deal with it----its the shi*ty choice you get to make


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> These last few posts have really nailed it for me considering what has happened in the last 24 hours.
> 
> jnj express - i feel all that anger and all that pain so many times during the day and night that I want to disappear. jnj, we don't ever forget we find, with time, a way to cope. That special place which she allowed some piece of sh!t to play in has been desecrated but I have to find a way to put that awful truth aside and re-sanctify it. Not just the physical but the psychological.
> 
> Ever-man, sorry I have not responded directly to you bro, it was not intentional. I really appreciate what you have written and it is prescient given the talk I had with my partner last night. Don't make it your last - TAM has been a place of knowledge & security thanks to people like you.
> 
> It started last night with me going on a 5km walk, which bothered my son no end (he's so sensitive to the status quo). After the kids were in bed we talked for 2 hours.
> 
> She very much wants to work on our relationship (de-facto 18 years - not married, both previously divorced with no kids. Just haven't bothered)
> 
> There was a huge amount of honesty last night and not without a few tears. I didn't have much as I had spent half my walk going through what I guess was grief and purging. I felt great when I got back home. She was tuned right into me and so we talked and talked.
> 
> She had never expressed so much regret, she apologised for the really nasty remarks which she confessed were said purely to hurt me at the height of bad blood. She said again, and not for first time that she wished she had not started up with this fool.
> 
> I got a lot more detail about the time-line, how it came about, his "technique" so to speak. By that I mean how he cast his net and not forgetting how she was primed to jump into it. If not him it would have been someone else.
> 
> She cannot come at the more graphic, self flagellation detail I want. Not now anyway, but I am weening myself off that anyway. As for the drinking it is something she has got to do. I can't help her with that. I've tried but she has to make that journey.
> 
> I have also just about given up on trying to ween her off the overt spending. But I have warned her that our finances, our "buffer" (available funds) is heading south again. She admitted she has a problem in this area which stems back to a childhood of having nothing - she wants our kids to have everything which I have warned her many times is a grave mistake.
> 
> Example - she returned from work last night with an IPOD nano (2nd hand apparently - it looks new) for my son who has been up in arms since his sister received an android tablet for her birthday. She got this to tide him over until he can have a tablet in December. See the problem - but it's her problem even though it affects us all in the long run.
> 
> These are the things she accuses me of trying to "change her" about her. It's a zero sum game and I have to live with it until critical mass or she somehow miraculously changes.
> 
> But the fact is I love the woman and she has gone to great lengths - despite the deception and humiliation of her affair - to express and demonstrate her love for me. I did an about face on the no sex rule which some here agreed I should reverse - I was shooting from the hip on that one. And she doesn't want it that way either.
> 
> Yes she wants a life with me and I want that with her. I have told her quite frankly and even again last night that I want a strong loving, emotional and intimate relationship. I deserve it and I will eventually have - if it can't be with her it will be with someone else, someday. She wants to be that woman.
> 
> Last night we re-connected, we truly engaged each other "upstairs" and laid a lot of stuff on the table. We covered a hell of a lot from the past, we dealt with the present and talked about the future.
> 
> It's not ideal but we are talking the same language. I know there are plenty of blokes here who have been hurt themselves and would get medieval on her but as I said I love her.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - the hurt, the questioning, the doubt, the suspicion lingers but I absolutely have to get past that and go with this and try and make it work. last night was an important step in that direction.



This sounds like good news, when you both start to recommit and get some distance from the affair and it's fall-out and some healing time together the positive feelings that you can create within each other will begin to heal the badness. 

First, apologies that I am an insecure ass expecting some kind of show of appreciation from a man fighting for his marriage. Interesting how our psychic weaknesses can be revealed in the simpliest of interactions, however, these issues are so important to me, the idea that I can help any man going thru this makes this day on earth worthwhile, for me. I'm sure all other TAMers feel the same. 

As I explained before, when my X cheated and left me, I would have loved to hear the things you are hearing from your wife. She is coming back around to you, for now, tread delicately if you want this to work to your advantage. I suppose there are 2 approaches to R: 1; re-hash details of the affair and past, and you can react to them and she can show the correct amount of guilt and regret, and help you heal; or,2; you come to terms with all the hurt and humilation suffered by you, YOURSELF, and tell her that it hurt, tell her about your ongoing pain, yet don't use her to heal it, but let her know you are healing it yourself, that you can handle it yourself, you can find the strength within yourself and MOVE-ON. 

In my mind the advantage of taking the second route is that YOU hold the POWER OVER YOURSELF, you are not giving her the power to heal you, you are keeping this to yourself, and cutting her out of a part of you. WHen she sees that there is this inner strength that you are developing, her reaction may be 2-fold: respect for your strength, concern that there is a part of you that she does not have dominion over, and that can one day burn her. The idea of self-soothing is a key marital concept developed by David Schnarch. Check him out online. 

Frankly, this is a key concept in mental-health, the idea that we can operate independently of anyone, and given your perceived dependent state on your wife, I believe you will benefit from keeping part of yourself free from her influence, and letting her know it. 

In light of this idea I may suggest you back off your impulse to known all the details of her affair, which I believe are never really good to know in the first place as it will bring you down, invariably, and perpetuate the "old" relationship. I would use this incident in your marriage to arc and evolve to a new psyche that allows for growth within yourself, and this growth of your personality will strengthen you FIRST, and your marriage, SECOND. 

Your wife put herself first when she had an affair, and now you have an opportunity to put yourself first in the healing. This is what the 180 is about, and this is also what filing for divorce is about, but I believe that this behavior can also be done in the context of staying in the marriage and creating a new relationship. One can change themselves and learn to love and parent themselves, and this will make them stronger. 

WHile I offer this advice in a vacum, and it may not ring true as a panacea, these are sound principles in any context. In the end, life and relationships are about giving love and being loved, and providing this for ourselves is something many loving people who loose themselves in others, like their wife and children, forget.


----------



## Horizon

Ever-Man said:


> This sounds like good news, when you both start to recommit and get some distance from the affair and it's fall-out and some healing time together the positive feelings that you can create within each other will begin to heal the badness.
> 
> First, apologies that I am an insecure ass expecting some kind of show of appreciation from a man fighting for his marriage. Interesting how our psychic weaknesses can be revealed in the simpliest of interactions, however, these issues are so important to me, the idea that I can help any man going thru this makes this day on earth worthwhile, for me. I'm sure all other TAMers feel the same.
> 
> As I explained before, when my X cheated and left me, I would have loved to hear the things you are hearing from your wife. She is coming back around to you, for now, tread delicately if you want this to work to your advantage. I suppose there are 2 approaches to R: 1; re-hash details of the affair and past, and you can react to them and she can show the correct amount of guilt and regret, and help you heal; or,2; you come to terms with all the hurt and humilation suffered by you, YOURSELF, and tell her that it hurt, tell her about your ongoing pain, yet don't use her to heal it, but let her know you are healing it yourself, that you can handle it yourself, you can find the strength within yourself and MOVE-ON.
> 
> In my mind the advantage of taking the second route is that YOU hold the POWER OVER YOURSELF, you are not giving her the power to heal you, you are keeping this to yourself, and cutting her out of a part of you. WHen she sees that there is this inner strength that you are developing, her reaction may be 2-fold: respect for your strength, concern that there is a part of you that she does not have dominion over, and that can one day burn her. The idea of self-soothing is a key marital concept developed by David Schnarch. Check him out online.
> 
> Frankly, this is a key concept in mental-health, the idea that we can operate independently of anyone, and given your perceived dependent state on your wife, I believe you will benefit from keeping part of yourself free from her influence, and letting her know it.
> 
> In light of this idea I may suggest you back off your impulse to known all the details of her affair, which I believe are never really good to know in the first place as it will bring you down, invariably, and perpetuate the "old" relationship. I would use this incident in your marriage to arc and evolve to a new psyche that allows for growth within yourself, and this growth of your personality will strengthen you FIRST, and your marriage, SECOND.
> 
> Your wife put herself first when she had an affair, and now you have an opportunity to put yourself first in the healing. This is what the 180 is about, and this is also what filing for divorce is about, but I believe that this behavior can also be done in the context of staying in the marriage and creating a new relationship. One can change themselves and learn to love and parent themselves, and this will make them stronger.
> 
> WHile I offer this advice in a vacum, and it may not ring true as a panacea, these are sound principles in any context. In the end, life and relationships are about giving love and being loved, and providing this for ourselves is something many loving people who loose themselves in others, like their wife and children, forget.


Thank you, great advice. I'll report back on my progress. :smthumbup:


----------



## Horizon

Well I asked for it and I got it - the horrible awful detail. Now I'm back in the hole and I brought it on myself. I tried and i couldn't do it. I couldn't be cool - I just cannot do that. 

5 weeks today and I have done all the heavy lifting - bloody oath I'm angry because that is the one thing even more than the false vows of love that is....well the way I feel tonight...it's the first time I have said it but...it's looking like a deal breaker now.

Sure we had the deep 2 hour talk and really "re- connected" but I've been feeling it for the last week or so in particular - it's gone. She has no feeling for me at all on that level that I need it.

Now yes, it is ridiculous to expect it to be what it was - and if I'm honest I can't tell you when the passion hit the bricks (years ago) but I can't deal with this neutral zone. That's the zone where she acts like everything is normal and I'm fuming - pretending to be something / in control.

Tonight I pushed that button, I asked for that detail and she gave me some - OUCH! But everyone get this, even 30 minutes on from the Bjobs and the consumption of another man's seed multiple times in a shopping centre and University car park I feel a little at ease - sort of.

I've kicked her to the spare room tonight and I might move all her stuff in there tomorrow. Whether she will actually go into the spare room remains to be seen. Dragging someone down the hallway, getting physical like that isn't going to happen obviously.

Man I am pisses at this woman - it was a tipping point tonight. gee, it's only gone 8pm over here. "Hang on folks it's gunna be a bumpy ride" (apologies to Bette Davis)


----------



## Horizon

She's hardly doing a thing as far as reconciliation is concerned - that's a fact. Everything that has happened has been from my end. In the last 5 weeks I've heard a handful of times 

"is everything alright?"
"Is there something I can do?"
"I cooked this roast and the kids and I cleaned up so you would come home from that long Sunday shift and feel secure in your own home" (that was very sweet actually but....)
"I feel a lot of guilt, I feel like I don't deserve an orgasm" (that's gotta be fake! She's not into me, it's an excuse surely - I don't know)

Am I wrong to expect more effort? Come on people! What should a betrayed man expect during & after 5 weeks of agony. I keep coming back to the fact that it is really, finally game over. That harsh bit of detail from her mouth feels like the end, as though her speaking it made it real.

I'd rather be here now than in that other type of fog, what I called the neutral zone. Am I wrong? She's in the other room having a happy girly chat with our daughter. After what I said to her tonight ("There's nothing there", "I'm feeling nothing from you", "you need to sleep in the spare room from now on" etc) she seems, not nonchalant, but relatively relaxed (probably the whiskey)....shouldn't she be a little more concerned???


----------



## warlock07

Wow..that is hard stuff. the mind movies will be horrible for quite some time.

And regrading the effort, did you tell her what you need from her ?


----------



## azteca1986

> shouldn't she be a little more concerned???


In fairness She's had little to be concerned about uptil now. Yes, she's admitted to what she did wrong as being 'a bit naughty', but there has been no consequences. Moving her to the spare room is progression on your part. It's good to see. 

The last time you got a reaction from her was when you got your pad out to discuss the D. Again, she was being shown the consequences of her behaviour and choices.

Finding out the gory details was the right thing to do for you, mate. Sounds like there's more to come. It unfortunately means that you're mentally back to square one as she Trickle Truths information that should have been forthcoming five weeks ago. Operation Rugsweep is over. This is still progress. 

Keep talking till it's all out in the open, for your sake. Once she has to spell out the enormity of her betrayal you may see more remorse (though her continued drinking is no help to either of you)

Good luck, keep going.


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> Wow..that is hard stuff. the mind movies will be horrible for quite some time.
> 
> And regrading the effort, did you tell her what you need from her ?


What do you recommend? - I am at a loss.

I have told her the sort of relationship I want.

I have described boundaries...what am I missing?:scratchhead:

PS: The mind movies have been awful for 5 weeks what's a few more years...(excuse my morbid humor - enhanced by 2 Jack Daniels mmm delish)


----------



## Wazza

Well.....you know what you know. Can't un-know it. You just have to push through. For me it was a case of going over and over it all until I sort of accepted it. Bites sometimes, but rarely severe any more. 

For some others, the very sight of the spouse who betrayed them is a never ending trigger and divorce is the only option. You will have to decide which group you are in.

As for penitence. Well.......a lot of people here think that a truly penitent spouse is grovelling, crying to the point of dribbling snot, etc. I don't buy that. Some handle it like that, but I don't see you can expect it of everyone. 

For me if I said "You're in the spare room" and she said "No I'm not" it would be bad and I would go to the spare room. But I really get the feeling she things she calls the shots and you will have to come around. I think working on your situation as SAHD is key if you want to turn this around. Not because I have some mysogonist problem with a woman earning more, but because I think you need to be in a position where you can walk away should you choose to.


----------



## happyman64

Horizon

I equate a woman's physical, sexual infidelity to a man watching porn.

It is all fantasy.

You are having mind movies which are hard to deal with.

But your mind movies are probably better than the teenage sex she was having the car.
do you realize that?

I think before you can ave the reconciliation you want you ave to get all the truth out of her. You have to get the entire timeline out of her.

You have to have clear boundaries with your wife in place.

You have to have your goals for your life and your marriage clearly defined for you and your wife.

Only then can you have a Reconciliation between the two of you.

Because it takes two.

You are getting there but you are only a few weeks in and your frustration is pearly evident.

Take your time.

HM


----------



## Robsia

happyman64 said:


> I equate a woman's physical, sexual infidelity to a man watching porn.


I respectfully disagree.

Infidelity is WAY worse than watching porn.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Horizon said:


> She's hardly doing a thing as far as reconciliation is concerned - that's a fact. Everything that has happened has been from my end. In the last 5 weeks I've heard a handful of times
> 
> "is everything alright?"
> "Is there something I can do?"
> "I cooked this roast and the kids and I cleaned up so you would come home from that long Sunday shift and feel secure in your own home" (that was very sweet actually but....)
> "I feel a lot of guilt, I feel like I don't deserve an orgasm" (that's gotta be fake! She's not into me, it's an excuse surely - I don't know)
> 
> Am I wrong to expect more effort? Come on people! What should a betrayed man expect during & after 5 weeks of agony. I keep coming back to the fact that it is really, finally game over. That harsh bit of detail from her mouth feels like the end, as though her speaking it made it real.
> 
> I'd rather be here now than in that other type of fog, what I called the neutral zone. Am I wrong? *She's in the other room having a happy girly chat with our daughter. After what I said to her tonight ("There's nothing there", "I'm feeling nothing from you", "you need to sleep in the spare room from now on" etc) she seems, not nonchalant, but relatively relaxed (probably the whiskey)....shouldn't she be a little more concerned???*




She is not concerned because she knows you want to reconcile.
If she saw you getting ready to walk away from her cheating as$, she may have been worried about loosing her safety blanket but you never showed her firmly that you have that strength in you. 

When she knows you are ready to move forward without her she will be concerned and will be doing everything to win you back.


----------



## aug

Kallan Pavithran said:


> She is not concerned because she knows you want to reconcile.
> If she saw you getting ready to walk away from her cheating as$, she may have been worried about loosing her safety blanket but you never showed her firmly that you have that strength in you.
> 
> When she knows you are ready to move forward without her she will be concerned and will be doing everything to win you back.


I think this is exactly it.

She thinks you are going through a phase and will get over it. She's showing you she has little respect for you.

You're too nice. She knows it. She'll get away with the cheating. She knows it.

You're too nice. Look what it has gotten you thus far.


----------



## Ever-Man

Horizon said:


> Well I asked for it and I got it - the horrible awful detail. Now I'm back in the hole and I brought it on myself. I tried and i couldn't do it. I couldn't be cool - I just cannot do that.
> 
> 5 weeks today and I have done all the heavy lifting - bloody oath I'm angry because that is the one thing even more than the false vows of love that is....well the way I feel tonight...it's the first time I have said it but...it's looking like a deal breaker now.
> 
> Sure we had the deep 2 hour talk and really "re- connected" but I've been feeling it for the last week or so in particular - it's gone. She has no feeling for me at all on that level that I need it.
> 
> Now yes, it is ridiculous to expect it to be what it was - and if I'm honest I can't tell you when the passion hit the bricks (years ago) but I can't deal with this neutral zone. That's the zone where she acts like everything is normal and I'm fuming - pretending to be something / in control.
> 
> Tonight I pushed that button, I asked for that detail and she gave me some - OUCH! But everyone get this, even 30 minutes on from the Bjobs and the consumption of another man's seed multiple times in a shopping centre and University car park I feel a little at ease - sort of.
> 
> I've kicked her to the spare room tonight and I might move all her stuff in there tomorrow. Whether she will actually go into the spare room remains to be seen. Dragging someone down the hallway, getting physical like that isn't going to happen obviously.
> 
> Man I am pisses at this woman - it was a tipping point tonight. gee, it's only gone 8pm over here. "Hang on folks it's gunna be a bumpy ride" (apologies to Bette Davis)


Knowing those sexual details of the infidelity hurt so much, but it is a self-inflicted hurt, your mind is creating the potent images, you are torturing yourself and putting yourself down, it has no marital or personal therapeutic value. 

Don't expect anything from her that will satisfy the hurt your are felling, she probably has no regrets and little remorse, since she sees herself as a separate person from you, with rights and freedom to pursue her happiness. It is time that you see yourself in the same light: a fully separate and autonomous person who does not require the love of this cruel and imperfect woman in order to function and VALUE YOURSELF. Stop looking to her to find value in yourself, you will come up short every time and you are giving her the power over you. 

She is an awful *****, she has devalued you through her actions, but does she see it this way? She probably feels you deserve the hurt, on some level, I believe there is an element of masochism in all infidelities, even if the WS is not aware of this. 

If you feel you need these discussions, be prepared to have your psyche and self-image dragged through the mud, and you will feel dark, low and broken. Don't let this flawed and cruel woman do this to you, with your consent, she is not worth i little will come of it. 

However, if you can detach and re-group, and find the strength within yourself, perhaps then you may want to re-engage and try to save the marriage. Then old relationship is gone, you need to re-invent a new one, but first mourn the old one. I suppose that is what the desire to know details is about: closure and mourning. I have been there, I wanted to know ugly details, everyman my X ***** F'd, (there were plenty) and it hurt me a lot, and I notices she didn't seem hurt, and that hurt more. I suppose this dance-of-revelation-and-despair has it's role in finding closure, but as I remember, it only hurt me, and required a lot of digging to get over something best kept unknown to me. THe X-***** was not worth that pain, and in the end it looked like she like to see me suffer. It was sick.


----------



## Wazza

Ever-Man said:


> Knowing those sexual details of the infidelity hurt so much, but it is a self-inflicted hurt, your mind is creating the potent images, you are torturing yourself and putting yourself down, it has no marital or personal therapeutic value.
> 
> Don't expect anything from her that will satisfy the hurt your are felling, she probably has no regrets and little remorse, since she sees herself as a separate person from you, with rights and freedom to pursue her happiness. It is time that you see yourself in the same light: a fully separate and autonomous person who does not require the love of this cruel and imperfect woman in order to function and VALUE YOURSELF. Stop looking to her to find value in yourself, you will come up short every time and you are giving her the power over you.
> 
> She is an awful *****, she has devalued you through her actions, but does she see it this way? She probably feels you deserve the hurt, on some level, I believe there is an element of masochism in all infidelities, even if the WS is not aware of this.
> 
> If you feel you need these discussions, be prepared to have your psyche and self-image dragged through the mud, and you will feel dark, low and broken. Don't let this flawed and cruel woman do this to you, with your consent, she is not worth i little will come of it.
> 
> However, if you can detach and re-group, and find the strength within yourself, perhaps then you may want to re-engage and try to save the marriage. Then old relationship is gone, you need to re-invent a new one, but first mourn the old one. I suppose that is what the desire to know details is about: closure and mourning. I have been there, I wanted to know ugly details, everyman my X ***** F'd, (there were plenty) and it hurt me a lot, and I notices she didn't seem hurt, and that hurt more. I suppose this dance-of-revelation-and-despair has it's role in finding closure, but as I remember, it only hurt me, and required a lot of digging to get over something best kept unknown to me. THe X-***** was not worth that pain, and in the end it looked like she like to see me suffer. It was sick.


Our experiences are different and that might be reflected in my replies. I don't agree that all WS believe that the BS deserves the hurt. I believe often the are just selfish. 

It might seem like semantics but I also question the statement that the hurt is self inflicted. In a sense, yes, because you asked. On the other hand the overpowering need to know was created by the cheating wife's actions. Knowing and not knowing both hurt. No win situation.


----------



## Horizon

She gives me something once in 17 years and then hands it out like cotton candy to someone who "made me feel good". Sh!t he must have felt like all his birthdays arrived at once ( I was going to say "came")

We avoided upsetting the kids as we promised them but when some "facts" trickled out I did not handle it well. For the next hour while the kids slept I was the master of the "controlled detonation".

Funny how things turn when it gets nasty. I asked her to leave - NO, I told her to sleep in the spare room - NO. Then later she says "It's my house"

Can u believe that? Her I am a bloke who had his own home, a bloke who won 30 grand soon after he bought her into his home, a bloke who put the 30g's straight on the mortgage , who never spent a cent of it on himself, a bloke who after time put his partner's name on the deed title....

I had to remind her that I'm also on this deed title! She always plays the $ card when backed into a corner. We have to play the trumps don't we, when it comes down to it.

It always goes the same way - she justifies it by saying I turned away. I tell her we both did and what's the point of the chicken / egg argument. She says she tried to tell me and then I play my trump - when did you ever tell me you were going to have an affair? Answer - "you weren't listening anyway" Another insult - logic cast adrift.

She's determined to tell me I am equally responsible. It even get so dopey that when I'm going on about her handing out the cotton candy multiple times she once again says "It's always about sex" I have to bite my lip in frustration!!!

I tell her that if she thinks that sex is not important (going against all logic about relationships - not to mention rugsweeping) why did she have to f**k the snake. Why?? Why not just bask in the compliments??? Answer - "he made me feel good".

I know that nearest and dearest but why did you have sex with him??? "I felt I should". PLEASE - someone give me a lobotomy so I can understand the rationale. Because this female is either completely in denial, just doesn't get it or....she was even kind of defending this f**ker at one point.

Not a good night and when it's topped off by the ubiquitous "I haven't really done anything much about our Recon in the last 5 weeks because your emotions are all over the shop" I just want to rip and tear! Hello, I'm in a hole you put me in - "You created it to" she says. Lord give me strength!! 

At least it cements the truth that no one - repeat: no one - is going to get me over this other than myself.

A full time job is key but with a 9 yr old and a 12 yr old, who is not always available directly after high school to meet him at home, I have to be the man. And it is against the law for a child under 12 to be home alone. We wouldn't do it, even though plenty do.

Strange isn't it - talk about the shoe on the other foot. I put in the best part of 8 years as SAHD, i had some excellent part time jobs (one I had to give up last year when my partner started her new higher paying job and was not able to get our kids to school - and shortly after the A started), I keep showing up every day for our family, I don't go out on the drink, chase neighbors wives, nothing, I put in 5 solid months getting our previous home ready for market - lugging paving bricks, plastering, painting, concreting, refitting, mulching, pruning mowing, cleaning it up pristine and then again twice a week for inspections - I go through all this to sell the joint and all the while she is f**king some low life and she has the audacity to say she saw the new home as an opportunity for a new start. 

It's become a nightmare.


----------



## sandc

She's still puking rainbows for him, mate. Still in the fog I think.

Wish I had some advice for you. My advice would be run but... you can't so...


----------



## badmemory

Horizon,

That was as brutal an exposition of non-remorse from a WS as I've heard in a while.

She just doesn't get it, and it's likely that she never will.

Do the 180 on her and do whatever you have to do to separate yourself from her and start divorce proceedings. If she won't leave the house, ignore her and keep away from her as best you can until you can figure things out.

You need to come up with a *plan* to move past her; to get away from her, divorce her and get on with the rest of your life.


----------



## treyvion

badmemory said:


> Horizon,
> 
> That was as brutal an exposition of non-remorse from a WS as I've heard in a while.
> 
> She just doesn't get it, and it's likely that she never will.
> 
> Do the 180 on her and do whatever you have to do to separate yourself from her and start divorce proceedings. If she won't leave the house, ignore her and keep away from her as best you can until you can figure things out.
> 
> You need to come up with a *plan* to move past her; to get away from her, divorce her and get on with the rest of your life.


Once you accept how WS are, almost nothing will surprise you. They are capable of anything, refuse to be pinned down. They don't care about you anymore. Once you accept this, it's easy to respect the decision you have to make to move forward.


----------



## Horizon

I am paying for years of being absent, for making her feel unloved and unwanted. The flip side of that is an affair. It is therefore justified - that's what she has to believe. And yet when she is at her most vulnerable - a rare thing for this alpha woman, she talks about always screwing things up. It's a strange mix; a successful woman, haunted by demons of self doubt but now a huntress. She's at that age - cougarville. I reckon there will be more.


----------



## BrockLanders

Horizon said:


> I am paying for years of being absent, for making her feel unloved and unwanted. The flip side of that is an affair. It is therefore justified - that's what she has to believe. And yet when she is at her most vulnerable - a rare thing for this alpha woman, she talks about always screwing things up. It's a strange mix; a successful woman, haunted by demons of self doubt but now a huntress. She's at that age - cougarville. I reckon there will be more.


So by her logic, if her actions have tipped the scales of righteousness a bit in your favor, is it permissible for you to go out and get some strange?


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> I am paying for years of being absent, for making her feel unloved and unwanted. The flip side of that is an affair. It is therefore justified - that's what she has to believe. And yet when she is at her most vulnerable - a rare thing for this alpha woman, she talks about always screwing things up. It's a strange mix; a successful woman, haunted by demons of self doubt but now a huntress. She's at that age - cougarville. I reckon there will be more.


As she does things to feed it, it takes away from influence you will have with her.

Perhaps the relationship dynamic can change if you choose to do one with her.


----------



## aug

Since you're the SAHD and she has the income, go for the alimony and major custody of the kids.


----------



## warlock07

Horizon said:


> She gives me something once in 17 years and then hands it out like cotton candy to someone who "made me feel good". Sh!t he must have felt like all his birthdays arrived at once ( I was going to say "came")
> 
> We avoided upsetting the kids as we promised them but when some "facts" trickled out I did not handle it well. For the next hour while the kids slept I was the master of the "controlled detonation".
> 
> Funny how things turn when it gets nasty. I asked her to leave - NO, I told her to sleep in the spare room - NO. Then later she says "It's my house"
> 
> Can u believe that? Her I am a bloke who had his own home, a bloke who won 30 grand soon after he bought her into his home, a bloke who put the 30g's straight on the mortgage , who never spent a cent of it on himself, a bloke who after time put his partner's name on the deed title....
> 
> I had to remind her that I'm also on this deed title! She always plays the $ card when backed into a corner. We have to play the trumps don't we, when it comes down to it.
> 
> It always goes the same way - she justifies it by saying I turned away. I tell her we both did and what's the point of the chicken / egg argument. She says she tried to tell me and then I play my trump - when did you ever tell me you were going to have an affair? Answer - "you weren't listening anyway" Another insult - logic cast adrift.
> 
> She's determined to tell me I am equally responsible. It even get so dopey that when I'm going on about her handing out the cotton candy multiple times she once again says "It's always about sex" I have to bite my lip in frustration!!!
> 
> I tell her that if she thinks that sex is not important (going against all logic about relationships - not to mention rugsweeping) why did she have to f**k the snake. Why?? Why not just bask in the compliments??? Answer - "he made me feel good".
> 
> I know that nearest and dearest but why did you have sex with him??? "I felt I should". PLEASE - someone give me a lobotomy so I can understand the rationale. Because this female is either completely in denial, just doesn't get it or....she was even kind of defending this f**ker at one point.
> 
> Not a good night and when it's topped off by the ubiquitous "I haven't really done anything much about our Recon in the last 5 weeks because your emotions are all over the shop" I just want to rip and tear! Hello, I'm in a hole you put me in - "You created it to" she says. Lord give me strength!!
> 
> At least it cements the truth that no one - repeat: no one - is going to get me over this other than myself.
> 
> A full time job is key but with a 9 yr old and a 12 yr old, who is not always available directly after high school to meet him at home, I have to be the man. And it is against the law for a child under 12 to be home alone. We wouldn't do it, even though plenty do.
> 
> Strange isn't it - talk about the shoe on the other foot. I put in the best part of 8 years as SAHD, i had some excellent part time jobs (one I had to give up last year when my partner started her new higher paying job and was not able to get our kids to school - and shortly after the A started), I keep showing up every day for our family, I don't go out on the drink, chase neighbors wives, nothing, I put in 5 solid months getting our previous home ready for market - lugging paving bricks, plastering, painting, concreting, refitting, mulching, pruning mowing, cleaning it up pristine and then again twice a week for inspections - I go through all this to sell the joint and all the while she is f**king some low life and she has the audacity to say she saw the new home as an opportunity for a new start.
> 
> It's become a nightmare.


Did she make you feel good either ? (during and before the affair)

Does she think you have no other choice but to stay with her ?

Her entitlement is off the charts.

Start making her take equal responsibility for the kids, so that you can start doing your own stuff


----------



## LongWalk

> Can u believe that? Her I am a bloke who had his own home, a bloke who won 30 grand soon after he bought her into his home, a bloke who put the 30g's straight on the mortgage , who never spent a cent of it on himself, a bloke who after time put his partner's name on the deed title


What do you mean by won 30 grand? You make it sound like a lottery ticket, rather than an achievement.

At this point you must end all expressions of neediness. You cannot reason or whine her affections to return. You must act cheerful and confident while laying down the law. She must see that despite your SAHD status, you are at heart enough of an alpha creature to attract her back.

Tough at this point. But ending it well or R both require a real effort from you. Filing for D first is important.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> A full time job is key but with a 9 yr old and a 12 yr old, who is not always available directly after high school to meet him at home, I have to be the man. And it is against the law for a child under 12 to be home alone. We wouldn't do it, even though plenty do.


Plenty of of people solve the child care problem so both can work. You have to solve it now. Don't give her a say. It's your future and she is trashing it.


----------



## Horizon

LongWalk said:


> What do you mean by won 30 grand? You make it sound like a lottery ticket, rather than an achievement.
> 
> At this point you must end all expressions of neediness. You cannot reason or whine her affections to return. You must act cheerful and confident while laying down the law. She must see that despite your SAHD status, you are at heart enough of an alpha creature to attract her back.
> 
> Tough at this point. But ending it well or R both require a real effort from you. Filing for D first is important.


I didn't put the well. I won 30 grand in a lottery.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> I didn't put the well. I won 30 grand in a lottery.


Don't focus on attracting "her". Just get back into yourself and take care of yourself. You will "attract" and it just may be her.

But if you make "her" the target, you will give it too much power over you.


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> Don't focus on attracting "her". Just get back into yourself and take care of yourself. You will "attract" and it just may be her.
> 
> But if you make "her" the target, you will give it too much power over you.


I hear what you are saying but it's a tough one. I was into the 180 - tell her to sleep in the spare room, focus on the kids, myself - long walks and then she steps in and wants a sit down.

So we do and she says - she can't see how us not sleeping together will help, she wants me to hold her, she wants more long talks, she will come to counselling tonight, she says we will work this out, she says she felt disgusting about what she did, she described it as tacky.....

I tell her I'm not feeling anything from her - she says that she shut down from me a long while ago and all of the "attacks" from me since DDay have meant that she went further into her shell - to protect herself. 

We both admit we don't know where to go from here, how to get to that next base. We both hope that the Mauritian Psychologist can advise us on that tonight. 

It's not like I can just rock up with chocolates and roses and expect bells & whistles - then again maybe I could drive to one of her haunts and pretend to be the snake. Who knows I might get a bj. 

How cynical I've become!


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> I hear what you are saying but it's a tough one. I was into the 180 - tell her to sleep in the spare room, focus on the kids, myself - long walks and then she steps in and wants a sit down.
> 
> So we do and she says - she can't see how us not sleeping together will help, she wants me to hold her, she wants more long talks, she will come to counselling tonight, she says we will work this out, she says she felt disgusting about what she did, she described it as tacky.....
> 
> I tell her I'm not feeling anything from her - she says that she shut down from me a long while ago and all of the "attacks" from me since DDay have meant that she went further into her shell - to protect herself.
> 
> We both admit we don't know where to go from here, how to get to that next base. We both hope that the Mauritian Psychologist can advise us on that tonight.
> 
> It's not like I can just rock up with chocolates and roses and expect bells & whistles - then again maybe I could drive to one of her haunts and pretend to be the snake. Who knows I might get a bj.
> 
> How cynical I've become!


Horizon, you have to find yourself.

The 180 is about emotional detachment. And of course she is resisting it. That's the point.

My wife does not like every change her affair brought into her marriage. And one of the changes she hates most is that I insist on arranging our finances in such a way that if we split up we will both get through. It's a reminder that I don't take a future together for granted.

Your wife has made it very clear you cannot trust her right now. She has had an affair, she has lied about it, she is refusing your requests because they don't suit her, she is making financial threats, and she is generally being quite selfish.

Even if you stay together, even if you spend time together, you still need to be in a position where you are there because you WANT to be there, not because you HAVE to be there. 

There will be moments where you can't stand to look at her. I don't think it is unhealthy at such a moment to tell her you just can't right now and walk away.

It is not your job, nor is it healthy, to rugsweep what she has done.

Cynicism is a problem. Hard headed acceptance of unpleasant realities is not.


----------



## KanDo

Horizon,

I'm going to be a bit harsh with youlargely because you are acting like a year old boy. You have already be told why she is actingthe way she is. BECAUSE SHE KNOWS YOU ARE A PAPER TIGER! What are you so afraid of? WHat could be worse than the situatio you are currently in? 

FIle for divorce. In the US you would stand a good chance of getting primary custody of the kids AND spousal support.
please
1) Go see an atorney to understand your rights and file
2) have her served
3) Explain to the kids that you love them and will always be there for them but thing are not good between their mother and you. (You are not giving them a healthy home life in your current setting. They would be better off with a happy father separated from their mother)
4) Move into the spare bedroom your self. You already know you can't kick her out. You can only control what you do and what you will accept from others.
5) Go to walmart and buy a couple of red rubber balls. Use those until you can find you own. You have proved to her repeatedly that their are no consequences for her dismall behavior. Man up!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

KanDo said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I'm going to be a bit harsh with youlargely because you are acting like a year old boy. You have already be told why she is actingthe way she is. BECAUSE SHE KNOWS YOU ARE A PAPER TIGER! What are you so afraid of? WHat could be worse than the situatio you are currently in?
> 
> FIle for divorce. In the US you would stand a good chance of getting primary custody of the kids AND spousal support.
> please
> 1) Go see an atorney to understand your rights and file
> 2) have her served
> 3) Explain to the kids that you love them and will always be there for them but thing are not good between their mother and you. (You are not giving them a healthy home life in your current setting. They would be better off with a happy father separated from their mother)
> 4) Move into the spare bedroom your self. You already know you can't kick her out. You can only control what you do and what you will accept from others.
> 5) Go to walmart and buy a couple of red rubber balls. Use those until you can find you own. You have proved to her repeatedly that their are no consequences for her dismall behavior. Man up!


I think it's going to take him catching her again before he'll do what he needs to...

*5) Go to walmart and buy a couple of red rubber balls. Use those until you can find you own. You have proved to her repeatedly that their are no consequences for her dismall behavior. Man up!*

I like this one. Pretty much says it all.


----------



## Horizon

Well now I am rolled gold absof**kinglutley mega pissed off!!!!

Tonight is my 4th visit to the psychologist - tonight is the night he suggested I bring my partner (for the first time). He suggested that 2 weeks ago. She has known and said yes for 2 f**king weeks!!!!

He texted me to ask if I'd like to come over 15 minutes earlier. So I call my nearest and dearest who is in the car on the way home from work and tell her the kids are just fed, we've got a minder....

NO!!!! she couldn't possibly put herself out. I got wind of this today around lunch when I felt a slight touch of resistance - "I'm so tired on Friday nights". 

This f**king woman would rather kick back with a drink than do "anything" as she said 5 weeks ago. When she walks through that door I'm going walk straight out to my car. When I get home I'm moving into the spare room. 

I don't give a flying f**k what that looks like to anyone here. I'm going 180 - as a matter of fact I'm starting to really question her commitment. You may say wake up - but she has been doing a lot of talking of late.

It's almost as if she is cunningly setting me up - so I will flip and move out. But it's less than that and worse, she doesn't care. She actually said to me, with her work-girlfriend in the carm "You go, I'll go next week" - that would be in two weeks darling!!

can't wait to listen to the VAR later on tonight. Man I'm pissed off.

You good people here understand - this means so much to me, our first ever combined counselling and under such difficult circumstances. And she blows it off because she's too tired!!!!


----------



## Wideopn Dave

Horizon said:


> Well now I am rolled gold absof**kinglutley mega pissed off!!!!
> 
> Tonight is my 4th visit to the psychologist - tonight is the night he suggested I bring my partner (for the first time). He suggested that 2 weeks ago. She has known and said yes for 2 f**king weeks!!!!
> 
> He texted me to ask if I'd like to come over 15 minutes earlier. So I call my nearest and dearest who is in the car on the way home from work and tell her the kids are just fed, we've got a minder....
> 
> NO!!!! she couldn't possibly put herself out. I got wind of this today around lunch when I felt a slight touch of resistance - "I'm so tired on Friday nights".
> 
> This f**king woman would rather kick back with a drink than do "anything" as she said 5 weeks ago. When she walks through that door I'm going walk straight out to my car. When I get home I'm moving into the spare room.
> 
> I don't give a flying f**k what that looks like to anyone here. I'm going 180 - as a matter of fact I'm starting to really question her commitment. You may say wake up - but she has been doing a lot of talking of late.
> 
> It's almost as if she is cunningly setting me up - so I will flip and move out. But it's less than that and worse, she doesn't care. She actually said to me, with her work-girlfriend in the carm "You go, I'll go next week" - that would be in two weeks darling!!
> 
> can't wait to listen to the VAR later on tonight. Man I'm pissed off.
> 
> You good people here understand - this means so much to me, our first ever combined counselling and under such difficult circumstances. And she blows it off because she's too tired!!!!


Horizon, I am going through reconciliation with my wife after she had and EA and was literally in the process of turning it into a PA when my 17 yr old daughter came home unexpectedly and found the 2 of them in her office (works from home).

We have been through 2 x councilors and the second one managed to get inside her head. Turns out (i was told) that there was an emotional disconnection by her 17yrs ago when my daughter was born (also the reason we have only one child). 

Between then and now, she has had several inappropriate "relationships / friendships" with men (I hesitate to say EA's) apparently because she was seeking to fill the emotional void created by her disconnecting from me. 

We have had a fantastic sex life all through the years, I have always felt totally in love with her (yes like any relationship there have been ups and downs) except when she has had these "friendships".

Purpose of the background is this; no matter WHAT you have or haven't done in your relationship (as claimed by your WS) there is NEVER NEVER NEVER a justification for that person to engage in relations outside the marriage. 

The analogy used by the first councilor we saw was simply this, "your husband could have done things to push you up to the fence but YOU (WS) decided to jump the fence. Nobody has the ability to MAKE you jump the fence. It was YOUR decision"

Then, having gone through all the heartache (granted i cling to the belief that my wife never consumated the PA; perhaps i am naive) which cannot compare to what you are going through, I had a one on one with the councilor on Wednesday; she said to me "you're hanging onto the pain and I believe you are in a place where you can release that pain. How do you do that? Go home now, sit you wife down and tell her ""I forgive you unconditionally. No strings, no conditions"". 

She went on to explain that there is a sword hanging over my WS's head which is in addition to her own guilt and shame at what she's done which she has to live with daily. The process wont advance until you free her of that sword.

I did it and my wife literally lit up; she has come back to me over the last 3 days in many ways. I now have hope and you know what, if she did bonk the guys brains out, she has to live with the guilt of lying to me. I was trickle truthed as well so i do understand some of your pain.

Most important, I have felt a weight lifted from me by saying what i did the other day.

I'm not saying it works in every situation merely sharing my experience. If you think you love her and more importantly she does love you, its worth a try. Its obviously extremely difficult if she wont take part in the counciling process.

Good luck


----------



## Headspin

What I have done here Horizon is keep the bits in your post that are the exact same as me but with some minor adjustments. My story has another 4 pages of the same shvt different day - It should tell you you are not alone.




Horizon said:


> She gives me something once in 17 years and then hands it out like cotton candy to someone who "made me feel good". Sh!t he must have felt like all his birthdays arrived at once ( I was going to say "came")
> 
> We avoided upsetting the kids as we promised them but when some "facts" trickled out I did not handle it well. For the next hour while the kids slept I was the master of the "controlled detonation".
> 
> Funny how things turn when it gets nasty. I asked her to leave - NO, I told her to sleep in the spare room - NO. *(Mine left eventually)*
> Then later she says "It's my house"
> 
> Can u believe that? Her I am a bloke who had his own home,
> a bloke who had money *£80* grand soon after he bought her into his home,
> a bloke who put the *£80*g's straight on the mortgage ,
> who never spent a cent of it on himself, *(I put another £250,000 into helping her live a part time job life) *
> a bloke who after time put his partner's name on the deed title....*( I didnt do that thank god)*
> 
> She says she tried to tell me and then I play my trump - when did you ever tell me you were going to have an affair? Answer - "you weren't listening anyway" Another insult - logic cast adrift.
> 
> She's determined to tell me I am equally responsible. *( You made me .....Blah blah blah ....)*
> Answer - "he made me feel good".
> ..she was even kind of defending this f**ker at one point.
> 
> no one - is going to get me over this other than myself. *(ABSOLUTELY)*
> 
> I put in the best part of *10* years as SAHD,
> i had some excellent part time jobs (I still do)
> *(one I had to give up 2007 when my wife started her affair with my work colleague and best mate !) *
> I don't go out on the drink,
> chase neighbors wives, nothing,
> I put in *18* solid months getting our previous home ready for market
> lugging paving bricks, plastering, painting, concreting, refitting, mulching, pruning mowing,
> cleaning it up pristine and then again twice a week for inspections -
> I go through all this to sell the joint and all the while she is f**king some low life and she has the audacity to say she saw the new home as an opportunity for a new start.
> 
> It became a nightmare.


I did exactly that like and more and more and here is is the one thing you have that I did'nt - THIS PLACE TAM

Here's where you are lucky Horizon because hopefully somebody like ME is about to stop you wasting yet another ten years on a person who is simply not the person you think they are. YOU ARE IN THE FOG TOO.
Unfortunately because I never had a place like this to highlight exactly what my stbxw was I stayed in the fog catching glimpses that she gave me of how good it could be, just to keep me in it whilst she fked half of the married men in my town - a cake-eating queen who also lied about 'why' and is now trying to take our home, take the kids, take my living away from us as well - all whilst playing the poor victim in the whole tragedy !

I normally bite my tongue after 99% of these stories in the hope for reconciliation of two parties but I will not here

What you are getting here from her is only the start
She is not what or who you think she is
She does not want you and has not for a long time 
She has relied on your fear to get herself on that pedestal and for you to keep her there

*You and her are done* completely because deep down you know you cannot ever bury what she has become, hell she's even fking you over today as we type here now.

We keep saying on here and you keep missing it - remorse - Its the king - 100 and the extra 1 percentage rules.
If you do not get that (and lets face it you're not even getting 50% !) then its a no brainer - it's not happening

Your chances of reconciliation with this person are below zero

........ sorry but they are 

Go legal, get her out of the house, prepare for a life without her.

Your heart will want something completely different but my only advice about that is to shut it down completely and I DO KNOW how hard that is but for your own well being it's the only way forward for you


----------



## Headspin

Wideopn Dave said:


> Horizon, I am going through reconciliation with my wife after she had and EA and was literally in the process of turning it into a PA when my 17 yr old daughter came home unexpectedly and found the 2 of them in her office (works from home).
> 
> We have been through 2 x councilors and the second one managed to get inside her head. Turns out (i was told) that there was an emotional disconnection by her 17yrs ago when my daughter was born (also the reason we have only one child).
> 
> Between then and now, she has had several inappropriate "relationships / friendships" with men (I hesitate to say EA's) apparently because she was seeking to fill the emotional void created by her disconnecting from me.
> 
> We have had a fantastic sex life all through the years, I have always felt totally in love with her (yes like any relationship there have been ups and downs) except when she has had these "friendships".
> 
> Purpose of the background is this; no matter WHAT you have or haven't done in your relationship (as claimed by your WS) there is NEVER NEVER NEVER a justification for that person to engage in relations outside the marriage.
> 
> The analogy used by the first councilor we saw was simply this, "your husband could have done things to push you up to the fence but YOU (WS) decided to jump the fence. Nobody has the ability to MAKE you jump the fence. It was YOUR decision"
> 
> Then, having gone through all the heartache (granted i cling to the belief that my wife never consumated the PA; perhaps i am naive) which cannot compare to what you are going through, I had a one on one with the councilor on Wednesday; she said to me "you're hanging onto the pain and I believe you are in a place where you can release that pain. How do you do that? Go home now, sit you wife down and tell her ""I forgive you unconditionally. No strings, no conditions"".
> 
> She went on to explain that there is a sword hanging over my WS's head which is in addition to her own guilt and shame at what she's done which she has to live with daily. The process wont advance until you free her of that sword.
> 
> I did it and my wife literally lit up; she has come back to me over the last 3 days in many ways. I now have hope and you know what, if she did bonk the guys brains out, she has to live with the guilt of lying to me. I was trickle truthed as well so i do understand some of your pain.
> 
> Most important, I have felt a weight lifted from me by saying what i did the other day.
> 
> I'm not saying it works in every situation merely sharing my experience. If you think you love her and more importantly she does love you, its worth a try. Its obviously extremely difficult if she wont take part in the counciling process.
> 
> Good luck


Some similarities to mine there Dave 
The last one a year ago was the nail in our coffin though

but good luck my friend


----------



## warlock07

I said this before. Your wife is big on words with little to show for actions. We had another poster like that on here. Cantthinkstraight. He finally filed for divorce after some tortorous 7-8 months and when he found out she was talking to the OM again. Your wife has a strategy. She will just say enough to keep you hanging on, giving you bits and pieces of hope to cling on and doubt yourself. I think kids are the reason she is trying to work it out.


----------



## Horizon

Hold your horses - she walked in the door and virtually demanded to go to counseling after a flimsy line about having to get her workmate home (the girl lives around the corner - and yes it was the same girl: VAR confirms it).

I had told her not to bother coming - this is meant to be of paramount importance and she's sending signals that she is too tired. Then she tells me she feels coerced and disappears into her own car. We go there separately. We sit in silence at the clinic - not a word.

Long & short of it - I had a quick debrief ("where's your head at") and then she went in. Then I went back in and then both of us.

She told him that she is wilting under my verbal assaults (*****, ****, filth, piece of sh!t etc.) which have come out about 5 times in nearly 6 weeks when some remark or the weight of the whole damn thing has made me explode. Not a class act I know and I have been actively avoiding the abuse. She has also been wilting under the barrage of my dismantling of her lies and diversions, most of it done via the e-mail communications.

It transpires, according to my/our psychologist that her resistance to counselling was about massive guilt and being forced to face another barrage of accusations. This makes sense but....I don't know, I find it hard to believe anything anymore.

In our one on one he said she loves you, she wants to be with you but she has shut down from your anger. She feels you are trying to make her feel your pain - bloody oath I am I say! But he convinces me to understand the dynamics - not necessarily to forgive (yet) but to plot a way forward. Hmmmmm....

So we have been guided by our psychologist to make time every night for me to ask anything but minus the abuse. We then must follow that, after some time out, with an open discussion about us - getting through the day to day, the future etc. All of this = connection.

So there you have it. Our counselor is not about going deep into the the reasons why but more about getting through, the future. No judgement just picking up the pieces.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Horizon said:


> It transpires, according to my/our psychologist that her resistance to counselling was about massive guilt and being forced to face another barrage of accusations. This makes sense but....I don't know, I find it hard to believe anything anymore.


I'm convinced guilt, as it plays out in my wife's head, is extremely destructive and powerful force. I saw it in action just the other day -- in a rare conversation where I tried to give her a glimpse of how much I've been hurting. She instantly got pissed, stood up, and started walking out of the room. Moments before we had been talking about our relationship and I thought connecting for a change.


Many a time the movie line has run through my head when thinking about my wife: "You can't handle the truth!"

It's a rough place to be. But, fwiw, it seems plausible that you are there. Also seems, from what you've said, that her own conscious is weighing on her -- if your "barrage of accusations" has had basis in fact, and has generally not been loud. Rough place to be, but not hopeless, I think.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon the counselling sounds positive to me.

However I want to reiterate the need for you to become financially independent. If you and Mrs Horizon work through this current situation and find good things on the other side, I don't think the need to stand on your own feet goes away.

And I am saying this as someone who successfully reconciled.


----------



## WyshIknew

Wazza said:


> Horizon the counselling sounds positive to me.
> 
> However I want to reiterate the need for you to become financially independent. If you and Mrs Horizon work through this current situation and find good things on the other side, I don't think the need to stand on your own feet goes away.
> 
> And I am saying this as someone who successfully reconciled.


Abso frickin lutely agree!


----------



## Headspin

Wazza said:


> Horizon the counselling sounds positive to me.
> 
> However I want to reiterate the need for you to become financially independent. If you and Mrs Horizon work through this current situation and find good things on the other side, I don't think the need to stand on your own feet goes away.
> 
> And I am saying this as someone who successfully reconciled.


Couldn't agree more

horizon - You must plan for a life alone without this woman whether you get back in r is neither here ot there.

When I look at what you are needing to do to get this person to even go to the start line I personally think it's an impossible one.

Sorry but the abuse that a wayward gets in attempting recon is par for the course - they should to a large extent be happy and willing to take it - that's part of the accepting real responsibility and showing full unconditional remorse.

This is why you have absolutely no chance imo - she's jumping up and down regarding your justified anger and resultant abuse after a few weeks !! 

Again you'll get a lot from looking into her eyes and telling her she's likely to be getting doses of that on and off for the next three years and them maybe some more.

Frankly her short fuse for accepting this shows you exactly where her destroying your lives is in her list of priorities - bottom of the list

Get yourself fit plan ahead for YOUR future emotioanlly financially. If by some miracle she gets fitted back into your life in a truly healthy reconciliation and properly good way with nil rugsweeping trickle and blaming then all well and good.

..............but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## WyshIknew

Horizon said:


> Hold your horses - she walked in the door and virtually demanded to go to counseling after a flimsy line about having to get her workmate home (the girl lives around the corner - and yes it was the same girl: VAR confirms it).
> 
> I had told her not to bother coming - this is meant to be of paramount importance and she's sending signals that she is too tired. Then she tells me she feels coerced and disappears into her own car. We go there separately. We sit in silence at the clinic - not a word.
> 
> Long & short of it - I had a quick debrief ("where's your head at") and then she went in. Then I went back in and then both of us.
> 
> *She told him that she is wilting under my verbal assaults (*****, ****, filth, piece of sh!t etc.) which have come out about 5 times in nearly 6 weeks when some remark or the weight of the whole damn thing has made me explode. Not a class act I know and I have been actively avoiding the abuse. She has also been wilting under the barrage of my dismantling of her lies and diversions, most of it done via the e-mail communications.
> 
> It transpires, according to my/our psychologist that her resistance to counselling was about massive guilt and being forced to face another barrage of accusations. This makes sense but....I don't know, I find it hard to believe anything anymore.
> 
> In our one on one he said she loves you, she wants to be with you but she has shut down from your anger. She feels you are trying to make her feel your pain - bloody oath I am I say! But he convinces me to understand the dynamics - not necessarily to forgive (yet) but to plot a way forward. Hmmmmm....*
> 
> So we have been guided by our psychologist to make time every night for me to ask anything but minus the abuse. We then must follow that, after some time out, with an open discussion about us - getting through the day to day, the future etc. All of this = connection.
> 
> So there you have it. Our counselor is not about going deep into the the reasons why but more about getting through, the future. No judgement just picking up the pieces.




This is the bit that really irks/confuses me with this stuff.

I would ask (you probably have already) both the counsellor and your WW what the fricking heck she expected you to say?

"Oh that's alright hon, never mind it was just a fantasy, just sex so no biggie. I'll make a cup of tea, shall we invite OM around to thank him for helping you out?"

Unless you are sure he? is doing a good job I'd be a bit wary about that counsellor to be honest he sounds a little like a rug sweeping expert.


----------



## 2asdf2

The MC is not validating your anger.

In a roundabout way, he is telling you to get over it.

Your anger is real, and expressing it -in whatever non physical way you do- should not be denied.

Ask your MC about the ins and outs of repressed anger.

I hate it when MCs take the middle road of "everyone is at fault here, nobody is at fault here." 

They are just preserving their income stream, oftentimes."

Other times they are, simply, inept.

I am sure there are other times still, but I think I got the principal ones down...


----------



## CEL

Horizon you just are not going to get past this till you get all the answers you want. So make it simple she takes a polygraph or you walk. All through this thread you demand answers and she just side steps I don't see her ever really coming clean, and you need her to come clean before you can decide to move on. Otherwise you are just spinning you wheels going nowhere and bleeding out. So make a list of questions pay the 500 hundred and get the answers you need tell her YOU need this to ever go forward. I don't see anything else working for you but more bleeding out.


----------



## PieceOfSky

2asdf2 said:


> The MC is not validating your anger.
> 
> In a roundabout way, he is telling you to get over it.
> 
> Your anger is real, and expressing it -in whatever non physical way you do- should not be denied.
> 
> Ask your MC about the ins and outs of repressed anger.
> 
> I hate it when MCs take the middle road of "everyone is at fault here, nobody is at fault here."
> 
> They are just preserving their income stream, oftentimes."
> 
> Other times they are, simply, inept.
> 
> I am sure there are other times still, but I think I got the principal ones down...


Respectfully, 2asdf2, I don't think his description of the MC's words justify the conclusions you have reached. At the same time, I would agree it is important to keep an eye on the MC.

It would be a really bad sign if an MC INvalidated someone's feelings. But, not validating is different from invalidating.

All I heard described was an insight in to WS's mind. Not any sort of evaluation of whether it is "right" or "wrong". 

I would imagine if the MC saw WS has a horrible betrayal that she needs to own, and that her actions of late are just sadistically adding insult to injury -- and then said as much to OP or W--, then WS would NEVER come back to counseling. My *guess* is MC sees it that way -- so far -- and is smart enough to not spook her away right now.

My 2 cents.


Edit: also, I would want IC for myself -- where there is a chance of getting some validation, as well as a professional assessment of how good a job MC is doing.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> . . . So we have been guided by our psychologist to make time every night for me to ask anything but minus the abuse. We then must follow that, after some time out, with an open discussion about us - getting through the day to day, the future etc. All of this = connection.
> 
> So there you have it. Our counselor is not about going deep into the the reasons why but more about getting through, the future. No judgement just picking up the pieces.


Horizon,

Does your counselor know the extent of your partner's drinking? Alcoholism is a serious illness that affects every aspect of the alcoholic's life.

If you are having your "discussions about us" while she is inebriated, then you are not getting honest answers from her even if she is trying to be honest.

Your relationship is on the rocks for so many reasons that it is hard for an outside observer to see how it can be salvaged. She is an alcoholic, she cheated, she seems less than remorseful. You have been emotionally crippled by her cheating. You are a SAHD with no independent means of support and thus are dependent on her. You are probably also a codependent enabler of her drinking.

Think about all of this and ask yourself if you wouldn't be better off ending this relationship and trying to build a new life without her.

Have you read NMMNG yet?


----------



## Horizon

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Does your counselor know the extent of your partner's drinking? Alcoholism is a serious illness that affects every aspect of the alcoholic's life.
> 
> If you are having your "discussions about us" while she is inebriated, then you are not getting honest answers from her even if she is trying to be honest.
> 
> Your relationship is on the rocks for so many reasons that it is hard for an outside observer to see how it can be salvaged. She is an alcoholic, she cheated, she seems less than remorseful. You have been emotionally crippled by her cheating. You are a SAHD with no independent means of support and thus are dependent on her. You are probably also a codependent enabler of her drinking.
> 
> Think about all of this and ask yourself if you wouldn't be better off ending this relationship and trying to build a new life without her.
> 
> Have you read NMMNG yet?


Thanks CO, I have read parts of NMMNG. I get it. Look, I love the woman - but maybe I'm so f**ked up that I'm completely dependent emotionally. 

I haven't told anyone here - I was molested when I was ten. I never mentioned this to anyone until I went to a psychiatrist in my late teens. I still have never breathed a word. I suppose it is the shame of it. I only revealed this to my partner recently and straight away I thought to myself - you did that for the pity vote.

See how f**ked up I am. But there is more.

My father was revealed as a sexual abuser, a pedophile, late in life. He got away with it - acquitted in court and has since died. The fallout from this destroyed our family. I have been the one left in the middle - wanting to be part of a large family but also wanting to support an excommunicated brother who's daughter finally had the courage to speak out.

My father abused her from the age of five to fifteen - ten years! His own gran daughter. He also abused another gran daughter who remains in complete denial even though she originally confessed. She changed her story, denies it to this day and the brothers remain split. She never even went to court!

My mother and the rest of the family sided with the denying gran daughter - obviously they were already right behind my father.

But I knew the truth about my father long ago from his odd behavior - I was not that surprised when it came out. he even abused my brother when he was twelve. This never came out in court. My brother did not have the courage to stand in court and condemn his own father - the man who subjected his own daughter to a ten year house of horrors.

So we are all really f**ked up. And there is more.

My mother, according to my niece who came fwd with the truth about the abuse (because she refused as a teenager to go to visit Nanny & Pop - that's when she broke down and told her mother why) twice walked in on my father doing inappropriate things. This is fully denied. Deny, deny, deny, deny.....

I was not surprised at that either, my mother has spent her whole life deifying Dad and rugsweeping.

When we were kids our father would get drunk on Friday nights and physically assault us. He was a deeply disturbed man. Whether it was his upbringing, the horror of his long cruel incarceration (building the Burma Thai railway - forever known as the "Death March") by the Japanese after the fall of Singapore in 1942 or his genetic make-up I will never know. 

But I do know that when he hurt us all those years up to the age of about twelve - when it suddenly all stopped ( we were getting bigger then ) my mother never lifted a finger to stop him. Women's refuges were almost non existent in those days but more importantly for my mother she would rather see us suffer than admit to the social stigma of divorce. Better to rug sweep than become one of those divorce statistics.

It is a long story of cruelty and the emotional and psychological fall out. To both love and resent your own mother to have never really told your father what an a-hole he was - it is a heavy price to pay. 

Some people can move past these things - put it in a compartment and lock it away. I have never really been able to do that. God knows I have tried for many years. My mental state has obviously affected my personal relationships. I'm not saying it has driven my partner to drink but it is not always easy living with me. I'm passive aggressive - that's the truth.

But hey, I'm still in there and swinging. I just wonder what affect this has all had on my relationship and that when I strip it down I have spent my whole life looking for both a mother and a father. Maybe this has been a tough one for her that this passive aggressive man has become too dependent and tried to turn her into a mother? Not very attractive added to the SAHD and the physical changes in me.

I'm not giving up. I went for a 3 km walk last night we had another talk that didn't go so well but - we are trying. A hard road.


----------



## Acabado

Man, that was hard to read. I'm so sorry.


----------



## Wazza

Dunno what to say. Thinking of you.


----------



## carpenoctem

I am sorry to learn those facts about your life, Horizon.

I wish at least marriage provided you a safe, stable haven away from that past. But it didn’t.

Maybe one of these days, you will take a yet unseen turn in your path, and walk into a better place. I hope so.



P.S.:
See, the very fact that you yourself didn’t turn out to be a paedophile (children who grow up amidst paedophilia / who are subjected to paedophilia OFTEN become paedophiliac adults themselves) gives you great credit. You trumped your FOO propensities with your own inner strength / integrity.

*That is something to really like about yourself.*

Every time you remember those aweful moments, remember this too.


----------



## PieceOfSky

I have admiration for everyone here that is working hard to heal and find happier ways of living. But, there is some extra admiration just for you. You have coped and persevered more than most folks can imagine, I'm betting, and have a lot more to be proud of than you probably know.

If you've gotten this far, and feel like you are learning more about what strengthens you and what defeats you day by day, and are finding support and actions/processes to keep you going, then it's only a matter of time before you achieve the good times you deserve.

Thanks for sharing that part of you.


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> Thanks CO, I have read parts of NMMNG. I get it. Look, I love the woman - but maybe I'm so f**ked up that I'm completely dependent emotionally.
> 
> I haven't told anyone here - I was molested when I was ten. I never mentioned this to anyone until I went to a psychiatrist in my late teens. I still have never breathed a word. I suppose it is the shame of it. I only revealed this to my partner recently and straight away I thought to myself - you did that for the pity vote.
> 
> See how f**ked up I am. But there is more.
> 
> My father was revealed as a sexual abuser, a pedophile, late in life. He got away with ............
> 
> So we are all really f**ked up. And there is more.
> 
> ............ fully denied. Deny, deny, deny, deny.....
> 
> I was not surprised at that either, my mother has spent her whole life deifying Dad and rugsweeping.
> 
> When we were kids our father would get drunk on Friday nights and physically assault us. He was a deeply disturbed man. ................. I'm passive aggressive - that's the truth.
> ............
> I'm not giving up. I went for a 3 km walk last night we had another talk that didn't go so well but - we are trying. A hard road.


That's very sad and a testament to your own inner strength that it has not in any direct way opened up the same path for yourself. Brilliant and well done Horizon 

However and you may not want to hear this but again _you are looking at you_ for her reasons for her appalling treatment of you. You are avoiding looking at her and you are enabling her behavior by doing so.
I know this, I have done the same. 

I think like my past situation it has become part of her behavior pattern to look at you for reasons to do what she wants to do and guess what, even now after getting nailed for it you are a 'willing' part of it for her. 

It's the very reason why it can't change, because you are stopping her looking at herself , your willingness to soak it up like a sponge is why she will never take responsibility for her actions - Why should she when it's so much easier and misses out the guilt and remorse so very conveniently 

This has to stop.

Right here in this post you are looking for reasons for her behavior and they all, guess what surprise surprise - point firmly at you.

THAT my friend is utter tosh. You wife /partner has become (through your enabling) a cake eater of the highest order and selfishly does what she wants knowing she can blame you and you will take that.

Sadly you will understand that your wife has also abused you big time, taken your trust and love and thrown it to bottom of the garbage can BY CHOICE. 

Wake up man.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Horizon, that was brave of you. When I revealed my childhood abuse and its extent it was the hardest thing I have done on this board. Like you, I beat the statistics about being abused leading to abusing. I never would but I also know the doubts that can creep in due to that stigma.

I'm so glad I did though. I had been trying to get help without letting my TAM friends know why I felt so messed up.

At the moment you are a victim of the abuse you suffered. It sounds like it still plays a large part in your interactions and thought process.

It doesn't have to be that way. You can decide it doesn't define you that it doesn't control you. You can stop being a victim and become a survivor.

You have been strong enough to break the cycle of abused to abuser. You are strong enough to move forward if you let yourself.

I can't help with the cwi side of things or reconciliation, but if there is anything I can offer with the abuse or recovering from codependancy (im a work in progress) I am more than happy to.

Stand tall. You shouldn't be ashamed. What you went through wasn't by choice but you're still standing. Be proud of that.


----------



## Horizon

BAM - we hit rock bottom tonight. The whole 10 minutes to talk about the mechanics of the affair isn't staying on neutral ground. I lost it again.

It is so abominably frustrating that I felt I was going to jump out of my skin. My partner maintains that she derived zero pleasure from the physical side of the affair. The snake said all the right things, made her feel good about herself, as though someone cared, and then they at some point went to the next level - here are some words from her tonight and well, since DDay 6 weeks ago.

"It's just what men think. Because men think it must have been hot & steamy doesn't mean it was"

"It wasn't planned" (yes really, all just improvised from scratch)

"I didn't enjoy it"

"I can't remember exactly how we had sex in his car"

"I felt I owed it to him for being so good to me, for treating me like I mattered, something you didn't care about"

"I didn't tell you because I didn't think you cared"

"You're part of it, you turned away from me"

"Yes, terrible isn't it. I felt I owed a man sex"

"We connected, the sex just happened. It was boring"

"We only had sex three times"

"You and I didn't have sex much because all you wanted was sex"

"You used to come home and just sit on the couch. I was cooking dinner and that really pissed me off particularly when I would be up all night with our son"

"Yes, you took over those responsibilities of cooking and the housework etc. but only really in the last couple of years"

"You didn't want to know me or the kids" (WHAT?????!!!!!)

"I told the psychologist - why is he so upset now when he didn't want to know me for years"

"I'm not doing this, I'm going to bed"

Even re-writing history is just another thing to say - to bolster the story, something to tell the girlfriends over a few bottles of wine. Not a great Dad - after being told so may times what a great Dad I was. I'm getting to the point where I don't know what to believe anymore. 

I had my issues and as a man I had to learn & realise that I wasn't putting in. I taught myself to cook watching her. I have never not been available, I have never reneged on my oath that I would be there with them through thick and thin. But apparently I fell down in my responsibilities earlier. I agree I was pretty clueless. There is no rule book - you do the best you can.

We are hurting each other pretty bad. She accused me of breaking the agreement with the psych to not get abusive. She's right but I was so fired up I told her - "hey, he can go f**k himself, I no more than him". God she will try any tactic.

Anyway I grabbed a swag of her clothes and ripped them out of the walk-in and followed that with her Imelda Marcos shoe collection. Just left it strewn around. The angriest I have been in many years. I demanded she move into the spare room. She refused.

It all came to a head when she implied I had neglected my kids. As I said I could see the future - the re-writing of history if we do break up completely. I brought it all on myself and I wasn't a very good lover or father or whatever. Sucks right now.


----------



## snap

> As I said I could see the future - the re-writing of history if we do break up completely.


But realize that it's not a reason to stay with her.

You can bet her every relative and friend already been prepped into her narrative of your relationship.

it seems that it's you who are terrified by idea of divorce. She feels it and naturally has the upper hand. The dynamics of your relationship won't change until she'll see you don't need her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Horizon said:


> Anyway I grabbed a swag of her clothes and ripped them out of the walk-in and followed that with her Imelda Marcos shoe collection. Just left it strewn around. The angriest I have been in many years. I demanded she move into the spare room. She refused.


I suggest that you get individual counsel for yourself. I see that your wife's affair has unleashed a whole host of emotions dating back to your terrible treatment as a kid. Some of that is coming out in the form of anger. Physical actions, like above, are problematic in such situations.

You need to find a person that can help you slog through your life and what happened. Your wife can't do much to help you, even if she wanted to. You also need to find safe, productive outlets for your anger. Exercise, whether at the gym or just chopping wood, to vent.

I am sorry you are at this point.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> "It's just what men think. Because men think it must have been hot & steamy doesn't mean it was" SO what if it was three times, the number is supposed to be ZERO. You know because you were married. Please note the comment, this is a deflection. She didn't say no.
> 
> "It wasn't planned" (yes really, all just improvised from scratch) Three times, it was planned.
> 
> "I didn't enjoy it" Once maybe, three times you enjoyed something. You must have pointed out that she didn't deny it was fun.
> 
> 
> "I can't remember exactly how we had sex in his car" Public sex? Thrill seeking another lie about lack of enjoyment. Another lie, she remembers.
> 
> "I felt I owed it to him for being so good to me, for treating me like I mattered, something you didn't care about" If this was the case, it was more than three times.
> 
> "I didn't tell you because I didn't think you cared" She knew you'd care and blow up the marriage.
> 
> "You're part of it, you turned away from me" So, emotionally connecting with someone else and paying them in sex is how to fix a relationship? No.
> 
> [
> "Yes, terrible isn't it. I felt I owed a man sex"
> 
> "We connected, the sex just happened. It was boring"
> 
> "We only had sex three times"
> 
> "You and I didn't have sex much because all you wanted was sex" This exchange is interesting. She owed him sex, but not you because you wanted it too much? Then she blames you for turning away? That is some very interesting narcissistic blame-shifting.
> 
> "You used to come home and just sit on the couch. I was cooking dinner and that really pissed me off particularly when I would be up all night with our son"Oh and NOW she can communicate problems to you.
> 
> "Yes, you took over those responsibilities of cooking and the housework etc. but only really in the last couple of years"So, you did what she asked, but it wasn't good enough. More narcissism.
> 
> "You didn't want to know me or the kids" (WHAT?????!!!!!)
> 
> "I told the psychologist - why is he so upset now when he didn't want to know me for years"
> 
> "I'm not doing this, I'm going to bed"


Sorry, she feels ENTITLED to her affair. 



> We are hurting each other pretty bad. She accused me of breaking the agreement with the psych to not get abusive. She's right but I was so fired up I told her - "hey, he can go f**k himself, I no more than him". God she will try any tactic.
> 
> Anyway I grabbed a swag of her clothes and ripped them out of the walk-in and followed that with her Imelda Marcos shoe collection. Just left it strewn around. The angriest I have been in many years. I demanded she move into the spare room. She refused.
> 
> It all came to a head when she implied I had neglected my kids. As I said I could see the future - the re-writing of history if we do break up completely. I brought it all on myself and I wasn't a very good lover or father or whatever. Sucks right now.


Ridiculous and you need a new Psychologist definitely a separate one. You need to control that anger because it will be used against you whether you R or Divorce.


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> BAM - we hit rock bottom tonight...........
> 
> It all came to a head when she implied I had neglected my kids. As I said I could see the future - the re-writing of history if we do break up completely. I brought it all on myself and I wasn't a very good lover or father or whatever. Sucks right now.


I'll not bother with the points in all of that (although astonishingly eerily reflective of my own stbxw) simply all that means is it's your fault - blah blah blah

but I will say this - you're wrong horizon, you have not hit rock bottom. Not yet, not by a long way. 
You have much further to go before you get down there and the main reason for that is at the end of your comments - the rewriting of history. 

This is something you will really find impossible to deal with at first, that you lived the life you *know* you lived with this person and yet in order to defend, to justify their appalling behaviors they will do absolutely anything to the point of re living inventing a completely different false life to enable, to justify themselves.

This will be the one thing that finally shows you, smacks you right in the center of your brain that they are not at all a person you thought you knew. you will find things rewritten to the point of incredulity, you will be effectively gaslighted to the point where you actually start to believe what she is saying, where you will doubt you own perception of what deep down you know is true of the past.

You have just had the first taster of that my friend.

Be prepared to have a script unfold about your past life with her that will play out like a movie or a book.

If you thought you were surprised at everything up to now ..............be ready for a lot more


----------



## Horizon

I have got to a point where I don't have a clue as to how she should be behaving in light of her affair.

The idea that years of resentment have built up and a now pouring out makes complete sense.

When you are given little credit for how you have evolved and are reminded of mistakes you made as a man and as a father then you realise everything is up for grabs.

No mistake, period of time when you were not at your best, something you did and said is off limits. In an argument, all this comes out for another parade.

My partner has huge resentment for me. That is obvious. She is even saying that we didn't have anything that resembled romance (on my insistence) because I just wanted sex. This is way back in the early days before kids even.

And yet she could not name one example where she had been romantic other than a handful of love song requests on FM radio in the first 12 months.

It depends on your expectations, what you are like individually. Let's face it many people never really go down this path of "Hollywood" idea of romance. It can be much more subtle. But we did not really have even that.

When the kids came along the sh!t hit the fan - especially with our boy who did not sleep properly for the first 3-4 years!!!!. That was a tough time. Many times we slept on the floor of his room - for years people. 

But he was a boy who only wanted MUM - she worked out his intolerances and then we found the right formula. I give her credit for that big time.

But he wanted only her. I get burnt for not putting the kids to sleep for years but it was less an abrogation of responsibilities and more about a special connection between mother and son. 

It is still very much the case today - I have been actively involved in getting him into bed for years and my God! the years I read and created stories for my daughter.

But for my son, he still wants that last kiss from Mum. I help bath him most nights, we wrestle and have stories, most nights. But I am paying for those years when I didn't fully act, when to be honest, I probably did act like an old school bloke and wasn't proactive enough. But that all changed.

However, there is all this resentment.


----------



## Horizon

Headspin said:


> I'll not bother with the points in all of that (although astonishingly eerily reflective of my own stbxw) simply all that means is it's your fault - blah blah blah
> 
> but I will say this - you're wrong horizon, you have not hit rock bottom. Not yet, not by a long way.
> You have much further to go before you get down there and the main reason for that is at the end of your comments - the rewriting of history.
> 
> This is something you will really find impossible to deal with at first, that you lived the life you *know* you lived with this person and yet in order to defend, to justify their appalling behaviors they will do absolutely anything to the point of re living inventing a completely different false life to enable, to justify themselves.
> 
> This will be the one thing that finally shows you, smacks you right in the center of your brain that they are not at all a person you thought you knew. you will find things rewritten to the point of incredulity, you will be effectively gaslighted to the point where you actually start to believe what she is saying, where you will doubt you own perception of what deep down you know is true of the past.
> 
> You have just had the first taster of that my friend.
> 
> Be prepared to have a script unfold about your past life with her that will play out like a movie or a book.
> 
> If you thought you were surprised at everything up to now ..............be ready for a lot more


Oh SH!T !!!!!!


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> I have got to a point where I don't have a clue as to how she should be behaving in light of her affair.
> 
> The idea that years of resentment have built up and a now pouring out makes complete sense........
> However, there is all this resentment.


Horizon what I understand and you will too is that 'resentment' is a broad brush to use against anybody.

Effectively if someone wants to find a reason for doing something - they will. Obviously there are lots of legitimate reasons for people doing many bad things but hardly any of them fit an adulterer especially a serial one 

What of your own resentment?. Was she perfect? of course not, did you harbor genuine resentment about any of her behaviors? excluding adultery of course you did BUT like most of us we weigh up the good and the bad and when you love somebody completely you do tend to ignore the bad and keep the good in focus. YOu don't store up the 'resentment' you simply brush it aside with the thought that nobody is perfect.

However when somebody is intent on doing bad shvt and cannot find a good enough reason for it up comes ye old "resentment" when any thing they can latch onto, even if it's huge lie will do it for them. In my own case I found she actually started to really believe the lies she was spreading in order to justify her stuff even when evidence to the contrary was stuffed right in her face. 

Complete madness

I think there are a couple of hilarious threads about resentment or more accurately 'excuses' thrown up by the wayward so incredible is their reasoning or lack of !


----------



## azteca1986

Horizon said:


> No mistake, period of time when you were *not at your best*, something you did and said is off limits. In an argument, all this comes out for another parade.


She's holding you to an impossibly high standard. I hope you can see that. It's standard her own choices and conduct don't come close to matching.


----------



## Headspin

azteca1986 said:


> She's holding you to an impossibly high standard. I hope you can see that. It's standard her own choices and conduct don't come close to matching.


Yaay! well said, I was about to say that 

Funny how her judgement of others is up in the clouds but her own behavior manages to reach down into the cess pool !!


----------



## KanDo

Horizin,

Please understand you are in the cheater's script. Despite her protestations of your inadequacies, even if true they are NEVER an excuse for an affair. But they most certainly are not true.

The mind of someone capable of cheating will rationalize, compartmentalize and rewrite history. It is a given. Her justification of her actions based on your treatment of her and the family are all part of the cheater's script. Unless she finds true remorse, you have no chance. I recommend that you try and shock some reality into her. Move forward with divorce plans. Disclose to those that are important and continue in a 180 mode. It's your best choice whether you divorce or attempt reconciliation.

Good luck


----------



## Horizon

It has often been the case with my partner. Numerous times over the years I have heard her claiming credit for something I might have suggested or discovered. This would be during a conversation on the phone with her parents. It's a trait she shares with her father. I would sometimes call out - "hey, that was my idea" etc. No real harm done but it bugged me and it fits with this idea of re-writing history.

Headspin, I have known this for a long time. The changing of history, the extra slant put on an aspect. I was shocked though about the extent of what you experienced. That said, I have no doubt that if we break this will be the case. AS if she is going to accept full responsibility.

And that has been a feature of this nightmare for the last six weeks. That no matter what - I had a very good part in bringing about her affair. This is the default position.

The aspersions cast against me after that, which lead to the implication that I neglected my children (which is when I snapped) are indicative of another habit of hers - broadening the subject base. This is where I talk about everything being up for grabs. Most of the time she is the one to reach back into the past to support her argument. Often this happens when I have pinned her down or backed her into a corner - highlighted the flaws in her argument. It a regular tactic of hers, done so often that she does not notice it.

Ironically I have never really thought of her as being overly judgmental. She is very much a tell it like it is, accept you as you are type. That's why I speak about deep seated resentment. When the claws are out it is not a time to expect a pat on the back.

But I know in my heart of hearts what kind of a father I am. the idea that my mistakes and my ignorance can be used to spin my character really stinks. I have a massive sense of justice and that is a terrible injustice.


----------



## BobSimmons

The sex is never good, which is why they dress up, wear the fancy panties and try to look like a million bucks. Few waywards ever fess up that the sex was actually good. I guess seeing the BS reaction to the details of the affair makes them want to minimize the damage as much as possible.

It's not always about the sex? Sex is one of the most privately intimate gestures someone can give. If it's boring the first time, you rarely go for seconds and thirds.

I don't believe someone thinks to themselves, oh his giving me attention, I owe him sex? Just as the excuse, oh he talks to me a little I owe him my love and heart.

Deep connections are formed during EA's. Deep and very conscious connections. Whether it's an escapists romance, you accept the reality of the situation and you go with it, consciously. Sex doesn't just happen. Two discerning adults through their interactions with each other up until that point pretty much know what the deal is and build towards it

Just my opinion.

...and she's still lying to you.


----------



## azteca1986

Horizon said:


> The idea that years of resentment have built up and a now pouring out makes complete sense.


No it doesn't make sense at all. *Your wife is re-writing the history of your marriage. *



> She is even saying that we didn't have anything that resembled romance (on my insistence) because I just wanted sex. This is way back in the early days before kids even.


No it doesn't make sense at all. Why did she ever marry you at all then? She'e trying (and failing miserably) to equate your behaviour when you courted her successfully with her betrayal. There is no equivalence. *Your wife is re-writing the history of your marriage. *



> It depends on your expectations, what you are like individually. Let's face it many people never really go down this path of "Hollywood" idea of romance. It can be much more subtle. But we did not really have even that.


Her expectations have seemingly sky-rocketed years after you successfully wooed her. Post-affair to be precise. *Your wife is re-writing the history of your marriage. *



> However, there is all this resentment.


It's not resentment - it's her justification for choosing to have an affair. *Your wife is re-writing the history of your marriage. *


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> It has often been the case with my partner. Numerous times over the years I have heard her claiming credit for something I might have suggested or discovered. This would be during a conversation on the phone with her parents. It's a trait she shares with her father. I would sometimes call out - "hey, that was my idea" etc. No real harm done but it bugged me and it fits with this idea of re-writing history.


Good God - now that is a minor detail that I thought unique to me ! How funny. Mine would do that like as if making a cup of tea. I used to hear it and think - "**** did you actually just do that, say that!" ...and she did, many times



Horizon said:


> Headspin, I have known this for a long time. The changing of history, the extra slant put on an aspect. I was shocked though about the extent of what you experienced. That said, I have no doubt that if we break this will be the case. AS if she is going to accept full responsibility.
> 
> And that has been a feature of this nightmare for the last six weeks. That no matter what - I had a very good part in bringing about her affair. This is the default position.
> 
> The aspersions cast against me after that, which lead to the implication that I neglected my children (which is when I snapped) are indicative of another habit of hers - broadening the subject base. This is where I talk about everything being up for grabs. Most of the time she is the one to reach back into the past to support her argument. Often this happens when I have pinned her down or backed her into a corner - highlighted the flaws in her argument. It a regular tactic of hers, done so often that she does not notice it.
> 
> Ironically I have never really thought of her as being overly judgmental. She is very much a tell it like it is, accept you as you are type. That's why I speak about deep seated resentment. When the claws are out it is not a time to expect a pat on the back.
> 
> But I know in my heart of hearts what kind of a father I am. the idea that my mistakes and my ignorance can be used to spin my character really stinks. I have a massive sense of justice and that is a terrible injustice.


All I can say about this is that now a year later from dday stbxw is even worse - has perceptions of the past that are truly staggering in their delusion.
I can prove every single thing about our marriage together to the letter, often in official form, work records (yeah I did "nothing" for 15 years) mortgage records ( yep I paid nothing although the £80,000 cash in getting the house did help !!)
Being a househusband for 8/9 years "you only did that so as not to do any work" ......gulp!

I'm really pleased I have all our records about everything as if I did'nt, like I said up above, I would, in fact did start to believe, I had done nothing - that I was free loading off my 'hard working' wife. I had this drummed into me so much I really did not question it any more.

thank Christ I woke up, although frankly far too late - if only I had seen this place here 7/8 years ago. God I'd have saved such a lot of wasted time

Anyway stick to your core beliefs about yourself . No-one's perfect but you know deep down what you have done in this relationship and you know you are a good person in your heart

Can she say the same? 

Dealing with the shvt - the serial adultery, the gas lighting, rug sweeping, trickle truthing was one huge ever present nightmare but the aftermath - the lack of remorse, the almost perverse need to justify everything rather than simply own it has shown me exactly what kind of person has been hiding under neath that bubbly, effervescent, all popular, charismatic woman I once thought was the love of my life


----------



## Machiavelli

BobSimmons said:


> The sex is never good, which is why they dress up, wear the fancy panties and try to look like a million bucks. Few waywards ever fess up that the sex was actually good. I guess seeing the BS reaction to the details of the affair makes them want to minimize the damage as much as possible.


It's true that affairs are never about sex; that's what the WW's always say. Unless they're posting on Doc Cools talking about how great it is or reliving ever mind-blowing second with their TGFs.

Horizon, your wife is just reading the script to you. Here's some of the usual lines:

_They never had sex. They couldn't because OM couldn't get it up. She doesn't remember if OM was bigger because when he finally did get it up, it disappeared right into WW's mouth, so she couldn't see it. Then when they did have sex, after they didn't have sex, his tool was so big it hurt going in. That's why WW could never climax with OM, because it hurt too much. Plus OM gave WW multiple orgasms and that always gives WW a migraine, so the sex they never had was a total bummer. WW never had anal with the OM, because she started to crave it after the first 25 times that they didn't do it, because she had no idea she could climax that way until she didn't._

The reality is she loved every second of it.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> It's true that affairs are never about sex; that's what the WW's always say. Unless they're posting on Doc Cools talking about how great it is or reliving ever mind-blowing second with their TGFs.
> 
> Horizon, your wife is just reading the script to you. Here's some of the usual lines:
> 
> _They never had sex. They couldn't because OM couldn't get it up. She doesn't remember if OM was bigger because when he finally did get it up, it disappeared right into WW's mouth, so she couldn't see it. Then when they did have sex, after they didn't have sex, his tool was so big it hurt going in. That's why WW could never climax with OM, because it hurt too much. Plus OM gave WW multiple orgasms and that always gives WW a migraine, so the sex they never had was a total bummer. WW never had anal with the OM, because she started to crave it after the first 25 times that they didn't do it, because she had no idea she could climax that way until she didn't._
> 
> The reality is she loved every second of it.


If they like the guy, when they are riding the fast lane on the other side of the tracks its a great drug like cocaine and heroin. The more they get the more they want. And hubby provides a perfect safety net, so she has nothing to lose. However she doesn't to get caught and when she gets past the fear, the thrill heightens all senses to the moon.


----------



## Will_Kane

Horizon, you really have to start to get control of yourself. The way you're handling this isn't working. The way you're handling this NEVER works.

Why are you arguing with her? Just stop. You and every other normal person in the world knows you can't make her have an affair, that she could have handled it a lot of other ways besides having sex with another man IF she was so unhappy, which is a big IF in your case.

In any event, please start doing what must be done. Stop engaging with her over anything other than the kids and finances and household logistics. No more relationship talk or path to reconciliation until SHE is READY to reconcile. SINCERELY APOLOGIZE. Answer your questions honestly. Give you full transparency. Handwrite the no contact letter and give it to you to mail.

Expose the other man to his wife, family, friends.

Stop making demands or requests that you can't enforce. You can't control where she sleeps. You can't control her - period. You can only control yourself. So start doing that. Get your list of conditions you need her to meet in order for you to reconcile and give it to her. If that includes sex, then put that on the list, too. Let her know she can do what's on the list - or not - but there is no reconciliation if "not." Let her know that you both only control yourselves and your own actions - neither of you can make the other commit adultery or remain faithful - that was true in the past, it is true now, and it will be true in the future. You no more pushed her into cheating before than she is pushing you into cheating now.

Start getting your life together for if you get divorced. Start working out. Start looking for work or getting what training you need. Arrange for child care before and after school. Hire a housekeeper. You BOTH have a RIGHT to WORK and you BOTH have a DUTY to care for the children. She can't make you do something you don't want to do, any more than you can make her.

In short, stop the arguing. It looks weak. Take a strong, hard line with her. Tell her what you need, then let her meet it or not. Don't beg, plead, whine, remind, nag - let her sink or swim on her own. Either she wants this relationship or she does not. You can't keep holding up both ends of this relationship forever, while she has affair after affair giving what YOU DESIRE to OTHER MEN while you get what's left over.


----------



## Horizon

All of it so true from you good gentlemen ( i use that term advisedly ).

My, so called, partner will simply not abide the idea that she enjoyed the sex on any level. Regarding the consumption of another man's seed on 3 occasions we had this exchange last night (paraphrased)

"I almost gagged"

"was that because there was a lot?"

"....I don't remember....NO!"

"What did it taste like?"

"Oh I don't remember"

"Why in 17 years did you only do that with me on one occasion?"

"....you only wanted sex"

"Hello!!!"

"He....I felt I owed it to him....it was....I didn't like it"

"You're telling me that when we first hit it off you didn't want to consume my seed because I only wanted sex?"

".........you will just go on believing what you want. I can't convince you so you will just go on believing what you want"

"It defies human logic"

"See, you wont believe me....it was boring and tacky"

"When you were in his car what position did you get into, how did you actually do it, did you climb over like you used to with me?"

"No"

"So he came over your side"

"yes"

"And you put the seat back...."

"Oh I don't remember"

"You're kidding right?"

"No, I don't remember"

"Those times in his car when you didn't have sex, you gave him blow jobs, what did he do to you?"

"I don't remember"

"What?"

"......he liked my breasts, he touched them"

Hmmmmmm......

Yes, I always suspected that tough as teak persona which used to come out in furious arguments. This is why I say I don't know what I should genuinely expect from her to prove to me she genuinely wants to be with me for the rest of our lives like she says.

I'm rationalising by going on about how everyone is different, which is true and outcomes are achieved depending on individuals, BUT....I still am suspicious about this whole Recon. Something is not right.


----------



## Horizon

um, obviously something is not right, I'm bloody tired and bloody tired of this 6 weeks of torture. 

This is what she reckons she understands but she doesn't. No one can who hasn't.

I know her - she's at the other end of the rope. Sure there's a modicum of remorse and plenty of guilt & shame (not to mention the entitlement - after what you put me through? I at least deserved to f**k someone else!) but that's about it.

She compartmentalises and no worries - off she goes and gets on with it. Meanwhile I've been f**ked upside down and sideways and it's stacked back to the horizon. Then I become this annoying bastard who wont let go of it. Unbelievable.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> I know her -


 No, you don't. Everything you posted in this thread shows you have no clue about your wife. Even people that compartmentalize can R and accept blame. She is telling you that you wanting sex is wrong, but she owed this guy sex because he touched her breasts?

I'd have papers drawn up and say:

"Well, these won't want sex from you, just a signature."


----------



## 6301

Why in Gods name are you sleeping in the spare room? When she goes to work, take her clothes out of the closet and the drawers and put it on the bed along with a newspaper with the apartments for rent section sitting on top of the clothes and let her know that until she pulls her head out of her a$$, she can either take the spare room or find another place to live. Change the lock on the master bedroom and get a good night sleep and let her fight the kids bed to get to sleep. Your not the one having the affair, she is. Why should you have to be the one put out of your bed. Tell her you love her but not enough to let her into your bed until she starts to act like a responsible and honorable adult, wife and mother.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

horizon said:


> all of it so true from you good gentlemen ( i use that term advisedly ).
> 
> My, so called, partner will simply not abide the idea that she enjoyed the sex on any level. Regarding the consumption of another man's seed on 3 occasions we had this exchange last night (paraphrased)
> 
> "i almost gagged"
> 
> "was that because there was a lot?"
> 
> "....i don't remember....no!"
> 
> "what did it taste like?"
> 
> "oh i don't remember"
> 
> "why in 17 years did you only do that with me on one occasion?"
> 
> "....you only wanted sex"
> 
> "hello!!!"
> 
> "he....i felt i owed it to him....it was....i didn't like it"
> 
> "you're telling me that when we first hit it off you didn't want to consume my seed because i only wanted sex?"
> 
> ".........you will just go on believing what you want. I can't convince you so you will just go on believing what you want"
> 
> "it defies human logic"
> 
> "see, you wont believe me....it was boring and tacky"
> 
> "when you were in his car what position did you get into, how did you actually do it, did you climb over like you used to with me?"
> 
> "no"
> 
> "so he came over your side"
> 
> "yes"
> 
> "and you put the seat back...."
> 
> "oh i don't remember"
> 
> "you're kidding right?"
> 
> "no, i don't remember"
> 
> "those times in his car when you didn't have sex, you gave him blow jobs, what did he do to you?"
> 
> "i don't remember"
> 
> "what?"
> 
> "......he liked my breasts, he touched them"
> 
> hmmmmmm......
> 
> Yes, i always suspected that tough as teak persona which used to come out in furious arguments. This is why i say i don't know what i should genuinely expect from her to prove to me she genuinely wants to be with me for the rest of our lives like she says.
> 
> I'm rationalising by going on about how everyone is different, which is true and outcomes are achieved depending on individuals, but....i still am suspicious about this whole recon. Something is not right.


*Fail.*


----------



## 6301

By the way. I too would let everyone know about her affair and inform the OM's family and wife along with her family and friends. I wouldn't worry about the OM getting a lawyer. I think the guy is full of s---t. By letting everyone know about it, maybe they can see just how pathetic they are. If your worried about her getting Pissed off, too bad. It's plain as day she doesn't care how you feel.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Let him get a lawyer so what? Your current marriage is destroyed no matter what you choose to do. If you D, it will never be same.If you R, it will never be the same. 

Remember being fixed is not equal to your marriage being the same.

I have yet to see a person, with a successful R, not trigger on this board.


----------



## LostViking

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

OK, we are not married, she ended the PA last October though there was some texting this year and I'm not in the spare room! 

She wont go in there even when I chucked half her stuff down the hallway last night. She studiously picked it up and re-hung it. I told her OK, while you're at work I'm moving you in there. She stayed home today because she did not sleep last night after the ten minute talk collapsed into a verbal stoush.

Hey guys, I get that she enjoyed it, that the opposite of everything she has said is probably true. I would have preferred to hear it from her rather than this ridiculous clap trap I'm getting. So what is the point now? I don't feel like asking her anymore questions about anything. I think I've reached the bottom of what I need to know - then again someone said recently I'm still nowhere near the bottom (impact wise)

Will - I'm **** scared that's why!!!! I don't want to be on my own again but I know it will probably be the case at some point. I have limited job prospects. The idea that we could afford a nanny or cleaner is out there. 

It is like she is toughing it out - literally waiting for me to be the one to move out, to act. She even repeated the crap about our home being hers.

When I mentioned that in fact she could end up paying alimony to me her response was " You don't even have a job" Utter contempt.

Change the locks - this will cause massive disruption to the kid's state of mind. In trying to limit the impact it just adds to my frustration. She's not doing hard time at all I reckon.

Like I said it is as though she is just waiting it out and occasionally throwing me a bone. Last Saturday night was all connection and a little bit of horizontal folk dancing but then 24 hours later this black cloud comes over. 

I'm trying really hard not to ask her another thing - I'm trying to find a way to effectively do a 180 but without disrupting the family. I'm trying to set boundaries that will suit our dynamic here but not deliberately just rub her face in it.

But on the other hand I am scared that I will drive her away for good. Yes, yes, if that's the case it was going to happen anyway.
When will I ever get back to enjoying my life - I haven't for years. 

She was right when she recently said to me "You don't know what It's like to be free" (no she wasn't referring to her PA). I remember my father, big as a brick outhouse he was, just showing up ay art school when I was 16. He just walked straight into the still life painting room. Freaked me out - black suit, army style short back and sides. Told me he was checking up on me. Then he left. Thank God he didn't know my pupils were like saucers because I was off my chops on LSD.


----------



## Horizon

Yes Warlock, you are right she has massive entitlement. She's effectively saying you made me feel like Sh!t so I get to have an affair.


----------



## jnj express

Since this is gonna go nowhere---cuz you really don't want to/can't D your so called wife-----then your only other choice is to suck it up----and live with your triggers, and her being there in front of you big as life

Try to get on with your life, and just do what needs to be done---to keep your son, in as normal/stable as life as possible----and tho I know the hardest thing for you to do, will be to suck it up, and turn the other cheek, so that your son, won't pick up the terrible vibes that are in your home

She had the A, and you are stuck----if she wants to have more A's, or continue with this guy---she will do so---cuz you can't get out of this mge at this time---and she knows it

Start working toward the goal of being able to leave, if that is what you want----and be roommates with your wife------if you have gotten your life in order, so you can move on---you will know the right time, and you will do so---cuz this wife of yours, knows she is in control, and I just don't think she really cares a whole lot about you

Some marital situations suck, unfortunately, yours seems to be one of them


----------



## crazyace

Horizon said:


> OK, we are not married, she ended the PA last October though there was some texting this year and I'm not in the spare room!
> 
> She wont go in there even when I chucked half her stuff down the hallway last night. She studiously picked it up and re-hung it. I told her OK, while you're at work I'm moving you in there. She stayed home today because she did not sleep last night after the ten minute talk collapsed into a verbal stoush.
> 
> Hey guys, I get that she enjoyed it, that the opposite of everything she has said is probably true. I would have preferred to hear it from her rather than this ridiculous clap trap I'm getting. So what is the point now? I don't feel like asking her anymore questions about anything. I think I've reached the bottom of what I need to know - then again someone said recently I'm still nowhere near the bottom (impact wise)
> 
> Will - I'm **** scared that's why!!!! I don't want to be on my own again but I know it will probably be the case at some point. I have limited job prospects. The idea that we could afford a nanny or cleaner is out there.
> 
> It is like she is toughing it out - literally waiting for me to be the one to move out, to act. She even repeated the crap about our home being hers.
> 
> When I mentioned that in fact she could end up paying alimony to me her response was " You don't even have a job" Utter contempt.
> 
> Change the locks - this will cause massive disruption to the kid's state of mind. In trying to limit the impact it just adds to my frustration. She's not doing hard time at all I reckon.
> 
> Like I said it is as though she is just waiting it out and occasionally throwing me a bone. Last Saturday night was all connection and a little bit of horizontal folk dancing but then 24 hours later this black cloud comes over.
> 
> I'm trying really hard not to ask her another thing - I'm trying to find a way to effectively do a 180 but without disrupting the family. I'm trying to set boundaries that will suit our dynamic here but not deliberately just rub her face in it.
> 
> But on the other hand I am scared that I will drive her away for good. Yes, yes, if that's the case it was going to happen anyway.
> When will I ever get back to enjoying my life - I haven't for years.
> 
> She was right when she recently said to me "You don't know what It's like to be free" (no she wasn't referring to her PA). I remember my father, big as a brick outhouse he was, just showing up ay art school when I was 16. He just walked straight into the still life painting room. Freaked me out - black suit, army style short back and sides. Told me he was checking up on me. Then he left. Thank God he didn't know my pupils were like saucers because I was off my chops on LSD.


I think the only thing now is necessary for you to do is to 'let her go'. I do not mean physically. I mean the 180. It is absolutely necessary to stand up for yourself. a change in you is utmost important. Is she notices and says anything do not acknowledge it. If she does not the resolve is simple, make yourself strong enough and leave !


----------



## Horizon

Much appreciate the comments from all you good people here. One of the constant themes is the 180. I have been trying to find a balance given what happens under this roof.

Today has been very interesting. It was like we were to hungover punch drunk boxers this morning. Neither of us had much sleep and she slept most of the day. My request for a talk did not eventuate. But around midday something in me changed. 

I felt energised after a 30 min cat nap. I had a stack of things to do for the afternoon, mostly away from our home. I powered into it - the whole time telling myself that I no longer need this. I don't need these 10 minute talks. She is never going to admit to what I wanted her to. She can't do it, she may never do it.

I don't need this in my life. I don't need to feel this way. I don't need to verbally beat up on her - how much more do I need to know? I have got to stop trying to get her to feel my pain.

Yes, all big words but I am genuinely over it. I have clung to it to some degree and I need to let that go. In that way alone I let her dictate terms.

I have always understood what those of you have said about standing on my own two feet, but getting past the intellectual understanding into action has been virtually impossible. 

It has to be done bit by bit with all considerations. The fact is I do not know what will happen - but obviously I can't control her. She has not said much today but at some point tonight she'll be wondering when the 10 minute chat will kick off.

Not tonight. I don't need that right now. I'm just going to tell her that I can't believe what she has said about the depth of the EA / PA with the snake and we will just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Carlchurchill

Horizon said:


> I don't need this in my life. I don't need to feel this way. I don't need to verbally beat up on her - how much more do I need to know? I have got to stop trying to get her to feel my pain.


Hey man all this negativity is going to keep you down, granted your situation is crappy but you need to start turning things around now!

Write down a list of all the things you DO want/need in your life now. Read it aloud every night before you go to bed and again in morning...things will happen


----------



## Horizon

Just for a laugh....

Did you hear the one about the bloke who walked into a bar with a sloppy piece of dogsh!t in his hand? He walks up to the barman and says "Hey, look what I almost stepped in"


----------



## warlock07

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/74737-you-re-sorry.html#post1790417

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/68894-forgiveness.html


The biggest is the one she committed against herself.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> OK, we are not married, she ended the PA last October though there was some texting this year and I'm not in the spare room!
> 
> She wont go in there even when I chucked half her stuff down the hallway last night. She studiously picked it up and re-hung it. I told her OK, while you're at work I'm moving you in there. She stayed home today because she did not sleep last night after the ten minute talk collapsed into a verbal stoush.
> 
> Hey guys, I get that she enjoyed it, that the opposite of everything she has said is probably true. I would have preferred to hear it from her rather than this ridiculous clap trap I'm getting. So what is the point now? I don't feel like asking her anymore questions about anything. I think I've reached the bottom of what I need to know - then again someone said recently I'm still nowhere near the bottom (impact wise)
> 
> Will - I'm **** scared that's why!!!! I don't want to be on my own again but I know it will probably be the case at some point. I have limited job prospects. The idea that we could afford a nanny or cleaner is out there.
> 
> It is like she is toughing it out - literally waiting for me to be the one to move out, to act. She even repeated the crap about our home being hers.
> 
> When I mentioned that in fact she could end up paying alimony to me her response was " You don't even have a job" Utter contempt.
> 
> Change the locks - this will cause massive disruption to the kid's state of mind. In trying to limit the impact it just adds to my frustration. She's not doing hard time at all I reckon.
> 
> Like I said it is as though she is just waiting it out and occasionally throwing me a bone. Last Saturday night was all connection and a little bit of horizontal folk dancing but then 24 hours later this black cloud comes over.
> 
> I'm trying really hard not to ask her another thing - I'm trying to find a way to effectively do a 180 but without disrupting the family. I'm trying to set boundaries that will suit our dynamic here but not deliberately just rub her face in it.
> 
> But on the other hand I am scared that I will drive her away for good. Yes, yes, if that's the case it was going to happen anyway.
> When will I ever get back to enjoying my life - I haven't for years.
> 
> She was right when she recently said to me "You don't know what It's like to be free" (no she wasn't referring to her PA). I remember my father, big as a brick outhouse he was, just showing up ay art school when I was 16. He just walked straight into the still life painting room. Freaked me out - black suit, army style short back and sides. Told me he was checking up on me. Then he left. Thank God he didn't know my pupils were like saucers because I was off my chops on LSD.


You are on your own, you just don't know it or refuse to recognize it.


----------



## Horizon

True

for those interested - the VAR has shown nothing over the best part of 2 weeks. Though it is interesting how I am portrayed as a bloke who has Father Mother hang-ups due to childhood mistreatment and that I need to investigate it and hold onto it. 

This is how my call to her in her car about going to first counselling was explained to work colleague who was present. She tossed it off as something that I needed to do and that she'd rather not be involved in. Because the truth can't be revealed I am portrayed as the bloke with issues. 

Her juvenile colleague chuckled when my partner told her I sought out other like minded sufferers online. My partner was referring to TAM. Something she demonstrates a level of disdain for.

Which leads to something else - for years I could not abide sitting in front of the TV watching interminable hospital dramas - ER, Greys Anatomy etc. So my hobby of contributing to political blogsites was what I'd do. Whenever we had an argument she'd invariably say - "How do I know who you are talking to online?"

Even when I offered to show her the history she didn't want to - another story to tell? A history to be re-written??


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> True
> 
> for those interested - the VAR has shown nothing over the best part of 2 weeks. Though it is interesting how I am portrayed as a bloke who has Father Mother hang-ups due to childhood mistreatment and that I need to investigate it and hold onto it.
> 
> This is how my call to her in her car about going to first counselling was explained to work colleague who was present. She tossed it off as something that I needed to do and *that she'd rather not be involved in.*
> I wonder why !
> 
> Because the truth can't be revealed I am portrayed as the bloke with issues.


Well I'm just dismayed and so disappointed for you horizon..........yet more blame...I'd tell everyone, absolutely everyone.



Horizon said:


> Her juvenile colleague chuckled when my partner told her I sought out other like minded sufferers online. My partner was referring to TAM. Something she demonstrates a level of disdain for.


 Jesus wept




Horizon said:


> Which leads to something else - for years I could not abide sitting in front of the TV watching interminable hospital dramas - ER, Greys Anatomy etc. So my hobby of contributing to political blogsites was what I'd do. Whenever we had an argument she'd invariably say - "How do I know who you are talking to online?"
> 
> Even when I offered to show her the history she didn't want to - another story to tell? A history to be re-written??


For sure re written with complete confidence


----------



## Horizon

The OM's wife is in for a "bit" of a surprise this week ;-)


----------



## warlock07

Horizon said:


> True
> 
> for those interested - the VAR has shown nothing over the best part of 2 weeks. Though it is interesting how I am portrayed as a bloke who has Father Mother hang-ups due to childhood mistreatment and that I need to investigate it and hold onto it.
> 
> This is how my call to her in her car about going to first counselling was explained to work colleague who was present. She tossed it off as something that I needed to do and that she'd rather not be involved in. Because the truth can't be revealed I am portrayed as the bloke with issues.
> 
> Her juvenile colleague chuckled when my partner told her I sought out other like minded sufferers online. My partner was referring to TAM. Something she demonstrates a level of disdain for.
> 
> Which leads to something else - for years I could not abide sitting in front of the TV watching interminable hospital dramas - ER, Greys Anatomy etc. So my hobby of contributing to political blogsites was what I'd do. Whenever we had an argument she'd invariably say - "How do I know who you are talking to online?"
> 
> Even when I offered to show her the history she didn't want to - another story to tell? A history to be re-written??


Actually it sets well with what has been going on. She has no respect for you. She does not even consider the pain you are going through. She has utter disdain and so much contempt for you and your feelings. Your are not the priority in her R drama. But you already know this, right ?


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> The OM's wife is in for a "bit" of a surprise this week ;-)


Don't do anything in half measures h
I cant remember everything about this - who knows who doesn't etc etc but if you are going to 
expose do it globally. 

If you really want to see her hit a wall that makes her sit up and stop everything and realize you are meaning business - do it hard. She's always managing to squirm around what you do or say because you give her that little bit of room to do it.

Sadly looks like your only option here to is to publicly nail her arse to the wall for all and sundry - big time. Give her no room. Nothing

Trust me you'll soon see a change in her when she has to start answering for her actions.

You'll find she wants to start talking with a bit more respect then and either she'll address things properly with you or realize there's no way back and divorce will be the discussion but one thing's for sure your control in this situation will be upped by about 200%

With a woman who is behaving as she is, treating you with the contempt she is, gaining a large measure of control in terms of the future whatever that may hold, is paramount.


----------



## Horizon

I have been doing my own version of the 180 ("going dark") for 48 hours. I'm totally civil but practically without emotion, without being robotic - there are still a few laughs; just mostly parenting & running the house.

It's a bit strange watching her reaction - or lack of. Obviously she knows the landscape has shifted. I don't accept "here, I'll do that" on any level. I don't react to anything that used to feel like a threat to my ego and I do not argue or make snide remarks.

We have not had any type of talk, no 10 minute - ask me anything (I can't remember but ask me anything about the A) talks for 2 nights. The night before last I said to her I wanted a break from the talks. She said they are important and I said I need a break.

"OK then, are you sure?""

"Yeah. No thanks, all good but they are causing problems"

"Are you really sure?"

"Yes"

"Well...."

"It's OK, there's nothing really to say. I'm just going to ask you the same questions and you are just going to deny it. We'll just have to agree to disagree"

"But that's you not believing me and...."

"Look, I don't believe anything you are telling me"

"I know"

Anyway same deal last night. Then around 10pm, after the obligatory drinks are on board she called out to me "Do you want to talk?"

"No"

"But we are meant to do this"

"Yeah, I know but what is there to say? I mean really"

"Well, if you want to talk I'd be happy to talk"

"No, it's OK"

"I'll answer any questions you have about what happened"

"There's nothing else to know" (I forgot to ask you how many times he went downstairs and how he managed to do do whatever he did to you in the confines of a car but you can't remember and anyway my 180 mindset is telling me to suck it up)

"OK"

Then I go sit down with her "Look, how much more do I need to know (fight that urge Horizon - fight it!!!!). Do I really need to know more?" (yes!!!!)

"Well if you have a question, if there is anything....I'll answer anything about....you know"

"I can't think of a single question" (yes, I bloody can but then I got up and left the room).

It's tough stuff, even this morning. So wanting to do what I used to do - hand over power. Boy was I dependent. No wonder this feels so foreign, no wonder she was not exactly excited by me.

latest VAR with work colleague revealed a continuation of the lie that the counselling is about my issues. She flippantly reinforced this and said how she'd rather be doing something else - not be dragged along. Her demeanor, tone of voice as if to say Hello!!, the girly sarcasm says a lot. It would be nice to know that I was portrayed in a better light. She's having to maintain this lie that it is my issue and she shouldn't be there to hold my hand or something like that. 

It didn't go on for long fortunately. She wouldn't have to play act if the colleague hadn't heard the call last friday - then again who knows what the girls will talk about. (lucky me knows for the time being)


----------



## Horizon

PS: The VAR is really picking up a lot of traffic & other noise which is interfering with clarity.


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> Well I asked for it and I got it - the horrible awful detail. Now I'm back in the hole and I brought it on myself. I tried and i couldn't do it. I couldn't be cool - I just cannot do that.
> 
> 5 weeks today and I have done all the heavy lifting - bloody oath I'm angry because that is the one thing even more than the false vows of love that is....well the way I feel tonight...it's the first time I have said it but...it's looking like a deal breaker now.
> 
> Sure we had the deep 2 hour talk and really "re- connected" but I've been feeling it for the last week or so in particular - it's gone. She has no feeling for me at all on that level that I need it.
> 
> Now yes, it is ridiculous to expect it to be what it was - and if I'm honest I can't tell you when the passion hit the bricks (years ago) but I can't deal with this neutral zone. That's the zone where she acts like everything is normal and I'm fuming - pretending to be something / in control.
> 
> Tonight I pushed that button, I asked for that detail and she gave me some - OUCH! But everyone get this, even 30 minutes on from the Bjobs and the consumption of another man's seed multiple times in a shopping centre and University car park I feel a little at ease - sort of.
> 
> I've kicked her to the spare room tonight and I might move all her stuff in there tomorrow. Whether she will actually go into the spare room remains to be seen. Dragging someone down the hallway, getting physical like that isn't going to happen obviously.
> 
> Man I am pisses at this woman - it was a tipping point tonight. gee, it's only gone 8pm over here. "Hang on folks it's gunna be a bumpy ride" (apologies to Bette Davis)


When you get a WW to start telling details and then blow up and punish her by throwing her out of the bed room all you do is teach the WW to not be honest any more.


----------



## LostViking

Your wife has no love for you Horizon. I'm sorry but if she did she would be moving heaven and earth to help you heal. 

You need to do a harder 180 than the one you are doing. Time to shut her out and see to your own health and well being. Consult with a lawyer to see how to go forward. I bet she will have to pay a pretty penny in child support if they make you primary guardian. 

And you need to find a full time job and prepare for single life. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

Horizon what is you long term plan here? Have you filed for D? Are you set on R? What do you want because it looks like she is just going to blame you for the entire thing and if that is the case then you need to start D and move on because this is going no where. The disrespect you are dealing with from her telling her friends is also a no go, I would out the whole affair to everyone so she can't pull crap like that and if she did not like it I would just say okay then lets D. You need to sit down and decide where you are I get the feeling you are all over the place and although confusion is okay to be at you still need to have a plan. At his point I would file and have her served while doing that I would expose the affair to her friends, family and everyone else. I believe you had a list of demands have any of them been met?


----------



## Will_Kane

Good job on the 180. Stick with it. Don't go back to the pointless back and forth arguments with no resolution.

If you go off the 180 temporarily, just start it right back up.

This isn't a straight line, you will be up and down, but as time passes and you stick with the 180 it will get better.

Keep monitoring the VAR. Realize that it is NOT a window into her true feelings, it is just the fake self that she portrays to the rest of the world (as opposed to the fake self she portrays to you). Is this woman ever just herself, without putting on some kind of an act? Even though it is just her fake self, though, it does give you some insight into her state of mind. She puts herself above you, doesn't mind making you look bad in order to make herself look good. Many, if not most, spouses would portray themselves in a worse light to others if need be in order to cover up for their spouses' actual flaws, so others won't think poorly of their spouses. Meanwhile, your spouse does the opposite, making up flaws about you so she can look better.

Try to prepare yourself for life without her. In her case, it very well may be that she won't give you what you need until she is faced with losing you.

Don't ever give an ultimatum you aren't prepared to follow through on.

If she questions the lack of affection or communication, it is OK to let her know that you will be ready when she is ready to finally answer your questions truthfully. She is stubborn. How easy would it be for her to just make stuff up instead of tell you she doesn't remember?

The portraying you badly to her colleagues/friends is not a good sign. I'm beginning to think this woman has an empty space where her heart and soul should be. She seems like she is missing something on the inside.

Continue to monitor the VAR to see if anything changes.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks - I'm in a tricky situ. Young(ish) kids, new home, part time work etc. I can push the 180 but realistically it could mean selling the house. A massive disruption. Kids are settled at school, there is no easy rental accommodation in this area and what is available is very expensive. 

repeat - we are not married but in the eyes of the law defacto is the same thing. 

There are only 3 people who know about this outside of us. The work colleague does not know about the A - she is a younger woman who lives close by. She was in the car and heard our call about counselling last week when my partner told me I should go on my own - it was explained as about my personal issues. A necessary lie but wow, how naturally it flows.

I did not have a list of demands. but it wouldn't be hard to come up with one.

Get help right now with your drinking
Stop the superfluous spending
etc.

This is where the entitlement comes in and of course the utter disrespect (the affair and drinking). Drinking is the big one. She just views me as what we refer to as a "wowser" - the fun police. She doesn't have a problem with drinking - I do.

And here "theroad" says that my actions will teach her not to be honest. Could she be any more dishonest? And....what will happen if she starts getting messages from her childhood friends that the i contacted them and told them all about the A. Will she be more dishonest??

What is happening here is that she feels content / safer to sit back and see what I throw her way - which right now is nothing and I'm sticking to it. She can explain away her "inaction" by not knowing what mood I'm in - as she has done before.

Given the dynamic here I think my best course of action is to do my best 180 and maintain it and arc it up where possible. I will keep applying that pressure and see what happens from her end. 

As for having a plan....well, that's my plan - at this stage.


----------



## bandit.45

Horizon said:


> Given the dynamic here I think my best course of action is to do my best 180 and maintain it and arc it up where possible. I will keep applying that pressure and see what happens from her end.
> 
> As for having a plan....well, that's my plan - at this stage.


Maintaining the staus quo for an indefinite period will only keep you in a tortuous limbo for years. She may not change and you could be waiting for years for her to come around. Is that any way to live your life? 

Children all over the world have divorced/split parents who live apart. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship with a woman who has no respect for you is going to do far more damage to your children than splitting up the household.


----------



## CEL

Horizon first off you need to start coming up with a list of things that you want from her. I don't know if you have recieved these are not or even done them but I just feel you are kind of flailing around. 

1: NC to the OM, I am guessing this has been done but did you see the letter.

2: Timeline of affair and all the details is you want graphic she give you graphic. This is written done in her hand writing.

3: Apology from her in writing for what she did. You need her to own up to the affair and her actions nothing you did warrants cheating she needs to really understand that what she did was wrong and her actions have nothing to do with you. We can only control ourselves and she decided to sleep with that man.

4: Does she have any remorse for your pain? Does she know you thinking of leaving her?

5: Outing to friends and family this is so she can feel the shame of what she has done guilt is internal shame is external our societly does not like cheating she needs to get a dose of shame so that her lizard brain "most primitive part of you mind set" get it. She needs to do this while you listen in again this is her mess.

6: Did drinking contribute or is this just a gripe? I grew up with alchoholics so I can understand if you have issues with this but did it contribute?

7: You need to calm down and decide right now do you want to leave or R? Right now with the way you are talking to her you want to leave. Not saying she does not deserve it as that is debatable but you need to decide for yourself.

8: You need to tell her how she can show she wants to be in this relationship. Look at this thread for suggestions http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...oo-many-ruined-chances-count-mrs_mathias.html


----------



## Horizon

Will_Kane said:


> Good job on the 180. Stick with it. Don't go back to the pointless back and forth arguments with no resolution.
> 
> If you go off the 180 temporarily, just start it right back up.
> 
> This isn't a straight line, you will be up and down, but as time passes and you stick with the 180 it will get better.
> 
> Keep monitoring the VAR. Realize that it is NOT a window into her true feelings, it is just the fake self that she portrays to the rest of the world (as opposed to the fake self she portrays to you). Is this woman ever just herself, without putting on some kind of an act? Even though it is just her fake self, though, it does give you some insight into her state of mind. She puts herself above you, doesn't mind making you look bad in order to make herself look good. Many, if not most, spouses would portray themselves in a worse light to others if need be in order to cover up for their spouses' actual flaws, so others won't think poorly of their spouses. Meanwhile, your spouse does the opposite, making up flaws about you so she can look better.
> 
> Try to prepare yourself for life without her. In her case, it very well may be that she won't give you what you need until she is faced with losing you.
> 
> Don't ever give an ultimatum you aren't prepared to follow through on.
> 
> If she questions the lack of affection or communication, it is OK to let her know that you will be ready when she is ready to finally answer your questions truthfully. She is stubborn. How easy would it be for her to just make stuff up instead of tell you she doesn't remember?
> 
> The portraying you badly to her colleagues/friends is not a good sign. I'm beginning to think this woman has an empty space where her heart and soul should be. She seems like she is missing something on the inside.
> 
> Continue to monitor the VAR to see if anything changes.



Excellent feedback and right where I am at. The arguing, the back and forth BS was draining me. I don't need that anymore. I'm feeling stronger, I believe I can maintain this - I will maintain this; because it is really the only way to chip away at the facade and see what lies beneath.

Your expose of the VAR is spot on - I haven't mentioned it but it has revealed a woman who on one hand is a type of mother figure to the younger colleague (commendable) but also a like minded spirit. After all the younger colleague is getting regular action etc. Of note is the amount of swearing - eff this eff that. Not that I haven't heard her curse but it's ramped up with her colleague. 

You can imagine what she is like on the fire water when she's out with the girls - oh hang on, I know exactly what she's like! Ouch!!

The few times I am mentioned other than the counselling stuff is not critical, just he did this or that....but I'm not mentioned with affection or high praise necessarily. It would be nice to be spoken of with some reverence though. Not surprising really.

Yes, I have been tempted numerous times to talk up an ultimatum for effect but know well that she'd see through it. She really thinks I am a weak individual. In any case that is all changing now - my evolving 180 is the best course of action right now.


----------



## KanDo

Ok Horizon. 
What are you doing? You have no need for any more VAR, no more snooping no more investigative arm. She was/is having PA and there is absolutely no question about it!

She is not remorseful in the slightest. Why are you putting up with the BS? You need to talk with your attorney to understand what you actually situation is.....You may have a common law marriage that requires a divorce.. In any case you may need to file for a court ordered separation of assets. No matter what the form, you need to stand up for yourself. Find a backbone and make real demands that wake up this self-centered damaged excuse for a woman. 

Expose your "partner" to everyone and take back your life. If she finds remorse and YOU want to R, fine. right now you are prolonging your agony, appearing weak and ineffective and fooling yourself. MAN UP!


----------



## Will_Kane

Horizon said:


> She was in the car and heard our call about counselling last week when my partner told me I should go on my own - it was explained as about my personal issues. A necessary lie but wow, how naturally it flows.


There were other ways to explain the counseling. She could have said it was about an issue with the kids or an issue with your families or even about your marriage and just leave it at that. She doesn't have to tell her friend everything about her marriage and personal life. Her primary is allegiance is to you and she shouldn't ever be making you look bad.

While you're doing the 180, try to look and act your best. Dress in neat casual clothes. Buy new ones if you need them. Don't walk around the house like a slob, even if you have no plans to go out. Make time to work out, even if it's only basic exercises like pushups and situps and jogging. Let her watch the kids for an hour, or even a half hour, a day while you do it. Get on a healthy diet. Change up your routine. Don't comment on your wife's drinking or spending unless it's something really serious.

By act your best, I mean to be pleasant and generally upbeat. You will find this easier and easier as you see improvement in yourself from working out and always looking and acting your best.


----------



## Horizon

Interesting how my version of the 180 is yielding small but significant results. 

After 3 days she is regularly asking me - "What's wrong?"

I keep "playing a straight bat" (cricket analogy) to her inquiries and I can see it is bothering her. It came to a little bit of a head last night.

The first 2 nights she kissed me goodnight and paused to tell me how much she loved me. Last night she did the same but leaned away a little and held my chin in her hand and then stroked my nose with her finger.

"Something's wrong, I can see it in your eyes....weirdness"

I let out a little laugh - "Everything is good...."weirdness" Hah!"

The funny thing is, the way she touched me after the goodnight kiss, I felt like she was mothering me. Not something she would normally do. It was a bit disarming to be honest. Weird in fact.

Anyway, I'm keeping strong. The subtlety is in removing pet words from any verbal interaction and reducing eye contact and gently refusing offers of assistance - without being a d**khead about it. 

It actually feels good to take back some power though it is frustrating. I can see that she is trying harder to be nice but whether this will morph into something else - who knows.

If any of you have more thoughts on this "zone" - how to deal with it, answering questions etc - pls feel free to jump in. For those who have offered guidance already please accept my thanks.


----------



## Headspin

I mean I have to ask this horizon.

After all this, the past, and especially since dday and even if you saw some miraculous change in this woman - do you actually in your heart see a future together, a time when all this will be behind like it never happened? 

Do you ? because ultimately if you can answer that and it's a no then save yourself an awful lot more shvte and do what you have to do

You're fighting for something here that you in truth may not actually want


----------



## LongWalk

Horizon said:


> Interesting how my version of the 180 is yielding small but significant results.
> 
> After 3 days she is regularly asking me - "What's wrong?"
> 
> I keep "playing a straight bat" (cricket analogy) to her inquiries and I can see it is bothering her. It came to a little bit of a head last night.
> 
> The first 2 nights she kissed me goodnight and paused to tell me how much she loved me. Last night she did the same but leaned away a little and held my chin in her hand and then stroked my nose with her finger.
> 
> "Something's wrong, I can see it in your eyes....weirdness"
> 
> I let out a little laugh - "Everything is good...."weirdness" Hah!"
> 
> The funny thing is, the way she touched me after the goodnight kiss, I felt like she was mothering me. Not something she would normally do. It was a bit disarming to be honest. Weird in fact.
> 
> Anyway, I'm keeping strong. The subtlety is in removing pet words from any verbal interaction and reducing eye contact and gently refusing offers of assistance - without being a d**khead about it.
> 
> It actually feels good to take back some power though it is frustrating. I can see that she is trying harder to be nice but whether this will morph into something else - who knows.
> 
> If any of you have more thoughts on this "zone" - how to deal with it, answering questions etc - pls feel free to jump in. For those who have offered guidance already please accept my thanks.


She's patronizing you. Get in shape. Find a job. File for D when it suits you. Detach
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

I have copped a hell of a lot of denials in my time - especially in the last 6 weeks. But I cannot deny the truth of what you both say. This is the truth that confronts me. That's the big one - everything else is, in effect, superfluous. Thanks.


----------



## warlock07

She is placating you. Like you said, she is tending to the wounded animal and everything should be back to normal service in few weeks. No wonder you felt that she is "mothering" you because that is what she is doing.


----------



## Horizon

Problem - she's getting upset tonight. She wants to know why I don't want to talk. I'm trying to stay neutral but....

She has quite rightly pointed out that we have gone back to where we were long before DDay. With me detached and not caring. "What are we going to do?" she asks.

I told her I'm not exactly sure how I feel about her, maybe a bad move but the whole detach is too obvious. I said I cannot believe her story about the PA with the snake and she looks at me and says - "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?" - "because it defies human logic" - "In your world it does" 

No argument recorded as yet - end of transmission.


----------



## MovingAhead

Horizon,

You are doing a great job. I know how hard it is. Be as strong as you can. Make sure you find a routine that gets you outside every day hopefully for at least an hour and one that tires your body; running, biking, gym etc...

You need sunshine to help stave off depression. The gym make work best because you will like the results and it will make you look the best. Muscle and Fitness Magazine has great diets for getting trim and building muscle mass, high protein low fat etc... I was ripped abs etc... until I found out my gf is a great cook. 

Try and keep yourself busy and stay strong. Your wife may be letting you have glimmers of hope because she is just keeping HER options open... (I hate to say that)

The 180 is for you so you can slowly detach and move on with your life if that is what is to be...

The limbo is Living Hell. I got to a point where my marriage was gone, but was in limbo for months. I actually pushed up the divorce date because I just wanted it to be over. When you are ready to move on and can't... God that was hell.

I am sorry you are here brother. Stay strong. God bless.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Horizon said:


> Problem - she's getting upset tonight. She wants to know why I don't want to talk. I'm trying to stay neutral but....
> 
> She has quite rightly pointed out that we have gone back to where we were long before DDay. With me detached and not caring. "What are we going to do?" she asks.
> 
> I told her I'm not exactly sure how I feel about her, maybe a bad move but the whole detach is too obvious. I said I cannot believe her story about the PA with the snake and she looks at me and says - "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?" - "because it defies human logic" - "In your world it does"
> 
> No argument recorded as yet - end of transmission.


Then ask her to take a polygraph. Then she can prove herself and you will know what really happened.


----------



## LongWalk

MovingAhead said:


> Horizon,
> 
> You are doing a great job. I know how hard it is. Be as strong as you can. Make sure you find a routine that gets you outside every day hopefully for at least an hour and one that tires your body; running, biking, gym etc...
> 
> You need sunshine to help stave off depression. The gym make work best because you will like the results and it will make you look the best. Muscle and Fitness Magazine has great diets for getting trim and building muscle mass, high protein low fat etc... I was ripped abs etc... until I found out my gf is a great cook.
> 
> Try and keep yourself busy and stay strong. Your wife may be letting you have glimmers of hope because she is just keeping HER options open... (I hate to say that)
> 
> The 180 is for you so you can slowly detach and move on with your life if that is what is to be...
> 
> The limbo is Living Hell. I got to a point where my marriage was gone, but was in limbo for months. I actually pushed up the divorce date because I just wanted it to be over. When you are ready to move on and can't... God that was hell.
> 
> I am sorry you are here brother. Stay strong. God bless.


Good advice. Health is important. One thing is certain, your wife cannot lead you out of this mess. At some point she will either follow your good example or continue going down the wrong path. Objectively her behavior is self destructive
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

Mate you hooked up with a master manipulator there. Keep up what you're doing. One of the two of you will crack first.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Horizon said:


> Problem - she's getting upset tonight. She wants to know why I don't want to talk. I'm trying to stay neutral but....


She is lucky you allow her in your presence after what she has done to you. 


> She has quite rightly pointed out that we have gone back to where we were long before DDay. With me detached and not caring. "What are we going to do?" she asks.


She is trying to guilt you, to manipulate you. This is her attempt to maintain control over you.



> I told her I'm not exactly sure how I feel about her, maybe a bad move but the whole detach is too obvious. I said I cannot believe her story about the PA with the snake and she looks at me and says - "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?" - "because it defies human logic" - "In your world it does"


Her reaction is very telling. She has lied to you before so why would you take her word for it now?

Stop trying to force this to work, its out of your control. You need to give up, throw in the towel, call it quits, ect. You are trying too hard to fix this and its not for you to fix, its up to her. 

Turn your back on her and walk away. If R is met to be it will be from her convincing you to stay, not the other way around.


----------



## warlock07

> "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?"


I know because you are a liar. I don't trust you. You are lying because you are a self serving cheaters with only your interests at heart..



> "In your world it does"


The same world where your most trusted partner cheated on you for years without any shame or guilt until she got caught.

The same world where the OM was more truthful than your SO.

The same world, where she kept lying where the only semblance of truth you had were from digging further, not from her mouth.


----------



## Clair

Horizon,

This is going to go against nearly everyone else, but all I see here are two hurting people who are stuck in a blame game because they cannot see past their own pain to that of the other and who keep on hurting each other as a result.

Not justifying the affair, but you and your partner were obviously not meeting each other's needs before the affair happened. Why would she want another if she felt you loved and cherished her? Why would hurting you even enter into it if she already felt you did not love her?

If she really is just cruel and callous and wholly to blame for the pain in your relationship, how could you possibly love her still?

I feel sorry for both of you.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> Horizon,
> 
> This is going to go against nearly everyone else, but all I see here are two hurting people who are stuck in a blame game because they cannot see past their own pain to that of the other and who keep on hurting each other as a result.
> 
> Not justifying the affair, but you and your partner were obviously not meeting each other's needs before the affair happened. Why would she want another if she felt you loved and cherished her? Why would hurting you even enter into it if she already felt you did not love her?
> 
> If she really is just cruel and callous and wholly to blame for the pain in your relationship, how could you possibly love her still?
> 
> I feel sorry for both of you.


My wife has put on some weight over the years. She is constantly saying she hates her wrinkles and her belly fat. Thing is I don't really see the wrinkles and the weight. Because I still see her as the young beautiful woman I fell in love with. After you are betrayed, even if that person is not remorseful and continues to hurt you, you still see them as the spouse you married. At least for a while. It takes a long time to detach. Some people are just narcissistic and selfish but it takes a while for perception to catch up to reality. But eventually reality does catch up. I hope for Horizon's sake it doesn't take too long.


----------



## Clair

bfree,
If Horizon' s partner is just a selfish narcissist, there is no hope and his whole relationship was a sham from the word go. Or maybe she was hurting because she felt unloved and invalidated and sought relief outside her primary relationship. It's at least a possibility.

How can you be so sure you are right? Why did it take her so long to have an affair? 

Forgiveness is necessary to heal the hurt, but impossible if you are right about her. What if you are wrong?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?" - "because it defies human logic" - "In your world it does"
> 
> No argument recorded as yet - end of transmission.


Doesn't matter. It happened end of the story.



> She has quite rightly pointed out that we have gone back to where we were long before DDay.


That's an incredibly insidious subtle threat of having another affair. This would be a deal breaker for me. I would've said bye. My wife had an EA and she said something similar.
"Oh, it is my fault and I led you to this?"
That's when I gave my wife printed Divorce papers, from a quickie divorce website, told her to call a friend and had her bags packed.



> Or maybe she was hurting because she felt unloved and invalidated and sought relief outside her primary relationship. It's at least a possibility.


Yes and it is not an excuse. You leave and end the relationship. If it is so bad and you can't communicate you leave. Short of abuse, there is no reason to cheat in my book. If the person is distant talk. If the person is poor at communicating go get counseling. There are THOUSANDS of things you can do before cheating.

Oh and I'm going to disagree with the whole " you both weren't meeting needs" 50/50 justification.


----------



## Clair

phillybeffandswiss,

I didn't quantify the blame, just pointed out that apportioning 100 percent of it to one party isn't going to work if reconciliation is the goal. Of course, maybe Horizon' s partner is an irredeemable narcissist, meaning there never was a real relationship to begin with, and nothing to save. 

Leaving an unhappy relationship/therapy instead of having an affair is obviously the right thing to do. Maybe she is totally undeserving of any compassion, but maybe she was weak, confused, afraid.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Clair said:


> phillybeffandswiss,
> 
> I didn't quantify the blame, just pointed out that apportioning 100 percent of it to one party isn't going to work if reconciliation is the goal.


 We will disagree. You are quantifying blame, you are just doing it at less than 100%. If reconciliation is going to work, you have to accept 100% blame for what is your fault. If spouses wants to play the "50/50" lead up game that's cool. I consider that rationalization on both their sides: 
I did it because.....
It happened because........

The cheating may be a result, but it is 100% the WS fault no "if ands or buts" in my book because the person makes a CHOICE.


> but maybe she was weak, confused, afraid.


Yes, which is 100% her fault for allowing those things to cause an affair. It is always sad and funny how distance automatically means have an affair. In these cases it never means counseling, communication or separation BEFORE an EA or PA. Those things take work and affair is a quick release.


----------



## badmemory

Clair said:


> phillybeffandswiss, I didn't quantify the blame, just pointed out that apportioning 100 percent of it to one party isn't going to work if reconciliation is the goal.


R can be the goal if the CS "accepts" 100 percent of the blame for the affair. That's called being remorseful.


----------



## bfree

Clair said:


> bfree,
> If Horizon' s partner is just a selfish narcissist, there is no hope and his whole relationship was a sham from the word go. Or maybe she was hurting because she felt unloved and invalidated and sought relief outside her primary relationship. It's at least a possibility.
> 
> How can you be so sure you are right? Why did it take her so long to have an affair?
> 
> Forgiveness is necessary to heal the hurt, but impossible if you are right about her. What if you are wrong?


What she has done has hurt Horizon greatly. Yet I see no remorse, no regret. All I see is blameshifting and gaslighting. She needs to accept that what she did was wrong. She is 100% at fault for what she did. Until and unless she does that you are right, there is no marriage to save. And forgiveness is off the table until it is known what the forgiveness is for. Forgiveness is not given, it is earned.

And why are you so sure it took her this long to have an affair. It is just as likely that it took her this long to be caught. See that's the trouble with not accepting responsibility. It keeps everyone in the dark...and in fear.


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## Clair

bfree,

Perhaps Horizon has also hurt her greatly, even unintentionally? Perhaps both of them cannot see past their own hurt to feel compassion for each other? She is responsible for hurting him terribly, but does that completely absolve Horizon for the hurt he may have caused her? Not saying affair was justified, or Horizon deserved it, but forgiveness is easier if the conditions leading to it are understood. Of course that also means taking some of the responsibility for the past which led to the present state of things. Some people ARE intrinsically flawed, but at the same time, its easier to pin the whole or major burden of responsibility on one party. But is it completely honest? Is Horizon certain in his own mind that he did nothing major to contribute to the conditions which led to the affair?


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## azteca1986

Clair, I know/hope you mean well. 

Do me this favour. Click on Horizon's profile page and read all his threads in chronological order.

When you have done, you'll clearly see that there is more love and compassion offered to him from the anonymous posters on this forum than he's got from his wife in years. Years.

There's nothing he's done to have this amount of contempt visited upon him. It's just heart breaking, it really is.


----------



## Headspin

azteca1986 said:


> Clair, I know/hope you mean well.
> 
> Do me this favour. Click on Horizon's profile page and read all his threads in chronological order.
> 
> When you have done, you'll clearly see that there is more love and compassion offered to him from the anonymous posters on this forum than he's got from his wife in years. Years.
> 
> There's nothing he's done to have this amount of contempt visited upon him. It's just heart breaking, it really is.


I was about to say the same. Clair I don't think you've read all this stuff


----------



## Clair

It is heartbreaking, Azteca. Betrayal is devastating and I'm sure the good people here will help him find his way to the happiness he deserves.


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## bfree

Clair said:


> bfree,
> 
> Perhaps Horizon has also hurt her greatly, even unintentionally? Perhaps both of them cannot see past their own hurt to feel compassion for each other? She is responsible for hurting him terribly, but does that completely absolve Horizon for the hurt he may have caused her? Not saying affair was justified, or Horizon deserved it, but forgiveness is easier if the conditions leading to it are understood. Of course that also means taking some of the responsibility for the past which led to the present state of things. Some people ARE intrinsically flawed, but at the same time, its easier to pin the whole or major burden of responsibility on one party. But is it completely honest? Is Horizon certain in his own mind that he did nothing major to contribute to the conditions which led to the affair?


Horizon didn't go outside the marriage. I fully understand and agree that reconciliation can only happen with two people working together to solve the problems of the marriage. BUT that can only happen AFTER the wayward takes full responsibility for having the affair. There are other ways to deal with problems in a marriage. Having an affair is the most disrespectful hurtful way, not to mention the most selfish. I'm sure IF Horizon's wife came clean and accepted responsibility he would be more than willing to work on the problems in the marriage. Have you read the reconciliation thread here on CWI? In that thread both WS and BS post and discuss their feelings and issues. Couples are in various stages of reconciliation, some may not be in full R mode yet. But they all have one thing in common. ALL WS have accepted full responsibility for their infidelity. Then and only then can the problems in the marriage be addressed. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum, I get that. But unless the WS is able to look in the mirror and see the flaws, the reasons they were willing and able to step outside the marriage, the BS can not start to rebuild trust. And without trust the problems of the marriage can not be addressed. It all comes back to remorse and atonement.


----------



## azteca1986

Clair said:


> It is heartbreaking, Azteca. Betrayal is devastating and I'm sure the good people here will help him find his way to the happiness he deserves.


No, Clair. Read his posts. We're way past 'simple' betrayal to naked, unblinking contempt. Read a hundred threads on this forum and you'll hardly see it's equal. There is not a shred of empathy from her. No remorse. Not even an attempt at it.


----------



## Horizon

Infidelity cannot be justified. But I can empathise with Clair's POV. The fact is, as I have admitted here, I was not the most pleasant man to be with. I had neglected my health, I had become sarcastic, I made snide comments and I did not have much consideration for my partner. 

I was in a world of pain - depression, self hatred. However I did not neglect my family, my children, but I did neglect my partner. On the flip side she also neglected me. It became a chicken / egg argument but the fact is we turned from each other. In this respect the ground was prepared for the possibility of an affair.

You think I didn't want the same thing sometimes? Think again? Of course I did. But the opportunity did not present itself at any time. And to be dead honest I didn't present well anyway. But the thought of it did leave me with the consequences debate in my own mind (could I really do that, do I really want to go down that path?) - something my partner was not able to do. She got caught up big time and went with it. 

See, I fully understand how it can happen - sadly it happens all to frequently. Seriously it's embedded in some cultures as the norm. But for me - never justified. As bfree says - there are so many alternatives to cheating. As we both well know the fallout is simply not worth it.

Here's the thing - my partner collapsed into a sobbing heap last night just after the kids went to bed. We spoke earlier in the evening as I reported and I knew that she wanted to talk more.

Yes she had a few drinks as per usual but this was different folks. I know many of you will already be waving your bright black and yellow "CAUTION" signs but this was not the norm. She was an emotional wreck.

She told me she could not eat and sleep properly, she said she was scared that she would lose me. She was just about begging me to forgive her, she held my hands so tight her knuckles were white. She kept sobbing and repeating how sorry she was for screwing it all up, for doing that to me for trashing everything we had. It was tough stuff.

She just kept going and going, falling apart in front of me - I have never seen anything like it. Don't forget this is a woman with the hide of a Rhinoceros. You think this was an act? IMO this was no act, this was a woman who after three days of my version of the 180 couldn't take anymore.

At first she approached, while I was reading TAM, and wanted to continue on from the earlier talk. I calmly repeated that it was part of the process, that I had to detach and that I could not help her with what was happening to her. I repeated that I was the one responsible for fixing me, that she could not help me and that this was how I had to do it. I reminded her that I am not disrespecting her on any level or ignoring her but that to heal I had to detach.

She entirely agreed and then talked about having to be strong for our kids and our son in particular. I pointed out that he needed me just as much. From this point she went downhill very quickly and then fell apart. 

I did not feel guilty but I did not reject her - I offered supportive words but said I had to do this alone. She was a mess. It was not pretty but it was necessary. Clearly she understands or is understanding how her deflections and defences no longer hold weight with me, that this is not in fact a return to pre-affair days but a much needed process. 

I will not give up - I do feel that we have a chance at recon. In time I will give her a list of things that must change. Top of the list is alcohol. I will also note what I will change about my own behavior keeping in mind that I am well into that zone already. Just the beginning eh?

Thanks to you all for your support and guidance - it would be great to meet you in person one day and have a drink (just a couple!). You are like family and I wont forget what you have done for me.


----------



## Clair

I haven't read all the threads, but but from some of the things I did read I thought it could be that after years of feeling unloved, Horizon' s partner was shocked to learn how much she was truly loved by him (the evidence being his devastation at her affair). It was wrong to go outside the marriage, but if she truly felt he did not really care for her, doesn't that mitigate things to an extent and make remorse and forgiveness less difficult?

I agree, remorse is the key to letting go of the pain of the past and rebuilding trust. I hope they make it.


----------



## sandc

Who says the 180 doesn't work. 

Good on you Horizon. Keep it up!


----------



## LongWalk

Clair said:


> Horizon,
> 
> *This is going to go against nearly everyone else*, but all I see here are two hurting people who are stuck in a blame game because they cannot see past their own pain to that of the other and who keep on hurting each other as a result.
> 
> Not justifying the affair, but you and your partner were obviously not meeting each other's needs before the affair happened. Why would she want another if she felt you loved and cherished her? Why would hurting you even enter into it if she already felt you did not love her?
> 
> If she really is just cruel and callous and wholly to blame for the pain in your relationship, how could you possibly love her still?
> 
> I feel sorry for both of you.


Clair, the majority of TAM CWI posters will not agree that anyone but the adulterous parties bear blame for an affair. This not logical. When courts consider the charge of murder it is possible for person be acquitted even though they actually did kill someone. There are circumstances that can reduce or absolve someone of responsibility.

It logically follows that there must be circumstances that make adultery less of a transgression or even make the adulterer entirely blameless.

I do not think that is the case in this particular relationship. Here the cheating could have been avoided by way of divorce. His wife should have divorced him


----------



## Clair

Horizon,
I think her breakdown was real, but necessary. She is showing you the vulnerability which she has hidden from you and which is the reason she fell into the arms of another. How sad it was all a fantasy. Be gentle on her, and on yourself. This is the woman you say you love. Let her feel it.


----------



## Clair

I hear you LongWalk. I wrote what I feel in my heart.


----------



## Wazza

Well, I have read all Horizon's threads and I have read the reconciliation thread, and participated in numerous discussions about the notion that the WS is 100% to blame.

My two cents, the decision to have an affair is 100% on the spouse, but the circumstances that let up to it not so.

The single most important part of reconciling with my wife after her affair was to let go of keeping score and apportioning blame.

If you want to stay married, Clair has a point IMO.

You can't expect your wife to wave a magic wand and things be perfect, and you can't say she is not entitled to feel pain just because she was wayward.

Still think you need to stand on your own feet, become financially independent, etc. But that doesn't mean you can't care about your wife or show mercy.

And I don't see the same naked callousness others do in her. But then, none of us know her. You do.


----------



## Will_Kane

You're doing well Horizon.

I don't put much stock in this act:
_
She told me she could not eat and sleep properly, she said she was scared that she would lose me. *She was just about begging me to forgive her*, she held my hands so tight her knuckles were white. She kept sobbing and* repeating how sorry she was for screwing it all up*, for doing that to me for trashing everything we had. It was tough stuff.

She just kept going and going, falling apart in front of me - I have never seen anything like it. Don't forget this is a woman with the hide of a Rhinoceros. You think this was an act? IMO this was no act, this was a woman who after three days of my version of the 180 couldn't take anymore.​_
Did she answer any of the questions you have?

Is she willing to do what YOU NEED in order for you to heal from her cheating and lying?

If not, then I would say it was all just an act, or the liquor.

I'd like to see her say more about the hurt she caused you and how she intends to help you over it. As it is, it just sounds like more woe is me with you as an afterthought. She certainly should be able to easily remember some of the things you have questions about, yet she has not switched from the "I don't know" or "I can't remember" line.

Still, it is a step in the right direction - but just a small step.

Keep on working on yourself, stay on an even keel, don't get drawn into any arguments. You know what you need.


----------



## LongWalk

As Horizon has pointed many times alcohol is major problem in their lives. His wife has not made any attempt get her boozing under control. Drunks get very maudlin at times.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> I haven't read all the threads, but but from some of the things I did read I thought it could be that after years of feeling unloved, Horizon' s partner was shocked to learn how much she was truly loved by him (the evidence being his devastation at her affair). It was wrong to go outside the marriage, but if she truly felt he did not really care for her, doesn't that mitigate things to an extent and make remorse and forgiveness less difficult?
> 
> I agree, remorse is the key to letting go of the pain of the past and rebuilding trust. I hope they make it.



Are we reading the same threads? The infidelity was the icing on the cake. The disrespect and lack of consideration for his being and feelings is the worst part. Why is it that only the guy has to take responsibility for the damage in the marriage ?




> but maybe she was weak, confused, afraid.


Yes, play the poor victim woman card.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> bfree,
> 
> Perhaps Horizon has also hurt her greatly, even unintentionally? Perhaps both of them cannot see past their own hurt to feel compassion for each other? She is responsible for hurting him terribly, but does that completely absolve Horizon for the hurt he may have caused her? Not saying affair was justified, or Horizon deserved it, but forgiveness is easier if the conditions leading to it are understood. Of course that also means taking some of the responsibility for the past which led to the present state of things. Some people ARE intrinsically flawed, but at the same time, its easier to pin the whole or major burden of responsibility on one party. But is it completely honest? Is Horizon certain in his own mind that he did nothing major to contribute to the conditions which led to the affair?


People need to take responsibility of their actions. You just don't have an affair. if she was so fed up with his behavior, why couldn't she separate ? Do you think she had no responsibility on how things ended up the way they did ? So, not only did she contribute to the conditions before the affair, she also had the affair. Years of deceits and lies. Lack of basic decency and empathy for the husband.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> People need to take responsibility of their actions. You just don't have an affair. if she was so fed up with his behavior, why couldn't she separate ? Do you think she had no responsibility on how things ended up the way they did ? So, not only did she contribute to the conditions before the affair, she also had the affair. Years of deceits and lies. Lack of basic decency and empathy for the husband.


You don't just have an affair, but people do.

I am not agreeing with it, I am observing it happens. Not everyone plans an affair, not everyone in an affair is in control. Not everyone agrees it is more moral to divorce.

Not defending her or the affair. But Horizon either ends the marriage or he deals with what happened.


----------



## warlock07

Wazza said:


> Not defending her or the affair. But Horizon either ends the marriage or he deals with what happened.


This is ridiculous. Two must want a marriage. How can he decide what to do if he cannot trust his wife to tell him the truth ? Every step, she continued manipulating or lying to him. Very little truth by herself. He had to dig up information for every confession. She even convinced herself that she deserved the affair because of Horizon's shortcomings. She makes him doubt himself.

If he wants time to decide, he should take it. She says she want to repair the marriage but her actions don't support her empty words. He has to find out if she intends to stay in the marriage, just for the kids or out of temporary guilt. 

Jumping into hasty false R can turn out much worse for everyone involved.


----------



## Clair

Warlock,
Horizon' s partner is responsible for the wrong choice to have the affair, the pain it caused him, and her contribution to the state of the relationship which led up to it. However, Horizon himself acknowledges he also neglected her needs and is willing to take responsibility for his own contribution to the sad state of things between them.

Taking responsibility for past mistakes and weaknesses and their consequences is the key to a better future, and now that Horizon and his partner can see the consequences and experience the suffering due to their previous way of relating, they can choose never to go back to old pattern to avoid future hurt. 

I believe in taking personal responsibility for the past in order to create a better future more self-consciously. But I also believe in mercy to fully heal. Horizon says he still loves her and wants to be with her but he is afraid she will hurt him again. Only he can decide when/if she is suitably remorseful, and, if he loves her, he will not wish to see her suffer beyond a certain point, and will have sorrow for his own acknowledged neglect of her needs. He cannot be sure in advance that she will never hurt him again so terribly, but if there is to be any chance of the relationship they both desire, opening his heart to her, despite the hurt she has caused, is a necessary risk. The condition for that leap of faith is genuine remorse, but it must be made. If Horizon cannot do that, despite her remorse, the relationship is over. 

Imo, that would show real strength, a very desireable and attractive quality.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> This is ridiculous. Two must want a marriage. How can he decide what to do if he cannot trust his wife to tell him the truth ? Every step, she continued manipulating or lying to him. Very little truth by herself. He had to dig up information for every confession. She even convinced herself that she deserved the affair because of Horizon's shortcomings. She makes him doubt himself.
> 
> If he wants time to decide, he should take it. She says she want to repair the marriage but her actions don't support her empty words. He has to find out if she intends to stay in the marriage, just for the kids or out of temporary guilt.
> 
> Jumping into hasty false R can turn out much worse for everyone involved.


Warlock, from our PMs I know you know my position is similar. My wife did not come clean in the aftermath of her affair. We are over twenty years into what seems to be a successful reconciliation. On that basis, I reject your thought that it is ridiculous.

To be clear, I am not advocating some reckless reconciliation. I am urging Horizon to arrange his affairs so he can stand on his won two feet without her. 

Not sure if you are married. But if you are, have you ever told your wife a white lie? Does that mean she can never trust you to tell the truth. (And a lot of spouses should be squirming at this question).

But if you want to reconcile, keeping score and apportioning blame may not be helpful. A great wrong has been done. It can never be undone. There is a place for sorting out problems, and there is a place for letting the past go. Horizon has to determine that for himself.


----------



## warlock07

She already stomped on his heart with her affair and now the responsibility is up to him to open his heart to her and be vulnerable again ? How does he know that she wants to be with him because she loves him ? He doesn't. Her actions prove the same.

Rejection doesn't get much worse than infidelity. What about her part in the whole thing  ? What does she do to fix the situation ? Tell her husband that he deserved the affair, his faults caused the affair, make him doubt his own sanity and what else ?




> Imo, that would show real strength, a very desireable and attractive quality.


There is term for that. "The humiliating dance of Pick me"
The Humiliating Dance of â€˜Pick Meâ€™!

When you are cheated upon, trying to come off as attractive to your cheating spouse is not the top most priority to most BS


----------



## Clair

warlock07 said:


> She already stomped on his heart with her affair and now the responsibility is up to him to open his heart to her and be vulnerable again ? How does he know that she wants to be with him because she loves him ? He doesn't. Her actions prove the same.
> 
> Rejection doesn't get much worse than infidelity. What about her part in the whole thing ? What does she do to fix the situation ? Tell her husband that he deserved the affair, his faults caused the affair, make him doubt his own sanity and what else ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is term for that. "The humiliating dance of Pick me"
> The Humiliating Dance of â€˜Pick Meâ€™!
> 
> When you are cheated upon, trying to come off as attractive to your cheating spouse is not the top most priority to most BS


Horizon has no duty to open his heart to her, but he has the choice of taking the risk, of having faith in her ability to be a better person and treat him with the love and respect he desires. Of course genuine remorse is the essential on her part to enable him to begin to let go of the pain and fear of the past. Only Horizon can decide if her remorse is real, and what things she must do to show him.

I wasn't suggesting that Horizon show mercy for the sole purpose of making himself more attractive to his partner, but imo it would probably increase her love and respect for him. I realize you think this is crazy, and would have the exactly opposite effect! She has already hurt him as much as she could. As I see it, his only options are to let go of the past and risk opening his heart once more, or leave.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> She already stomped on his heart with her affair and now the responsibility is up to him to open his heart to her and be vulnerable again ? How does he know that she wants to be with him because she loves him ? He doesn't. Her actions prove the same.
> 
> Rejection doesn't get much worse than infidelity. What about her part in the whole thing ? What does she do to fix the situation ? Tell her husband that he deserved the affair, his faults caused the affair, make him doubt his own sanity and what else ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is term for that. "The humiliating dance of Pick me"
> The Humiliating Dance of ‘Pick Me’!
> 
> When you are cheated upon, trying to come off as attractive to your cheating spouse is not the top most priority to most BS


Welcome to the real world Warlock.

Open your heart to the one who tromped on it, or walk. That's the choice. What else is there? If you have a third option, lay it out.

Gotta tell you, reconciling hurts. So does divorce, I believe.

I have consistently advised Horizon to put himself in a position where he can stand on his own two feet. I am not urging him to return like a lamb to the slaughter. 

It is unfair, it is horrible, it sucks. I know that, I lived that. Doesn't make it untrue.

Many people on TAM see it as you do. Many don't reconcile. I reckon the two are connected.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> Horizon has no duty to open his heart to her, but he has the choice of taking the risk, of having faith in her ability to be a better person and treat him with the love and respect he desires. Of course genuine remorse is the essential on her part to enable him to begin to let go of the pain and fear of the past. Only Horizon can decide if her remorse is real, and what things she must do to show him.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that Horizon show mercy for the sole purpose of making himself more attractive to his partner, but imo it would probably increase her love and respect for him. I realize you think this is crazy, and would have the exactly opposite effect! She has already hurt him as much as she could. As I see it, his only options are to let go of the past and risk opening his heart once more, or leave.


Maybe you don't see the contradictions in your own statements.

Are you involved in this situation personally ? Are you his wife ?


----------



## Wazza

Oh dear....I now where this is going to go, but what the hell....

What if you are the WS? What if you want to stay married? What if you are genuinely concerned that your spouse, if they know the truth, can't handle it?

Now, I am not arguing for lies....I am just saying, that trying to hose the situation down, while unwise, can be understandable?

Horizon, if you don't get the truth it WILL eat at you. But maybe your wife doesn't understand that.


----------



## Clair

Warlock,
Maybe you perceive contradictions where there aren't any.
I am not Horizon' s wife, nor am personally involved in their situation. I have given a perspective which differs radically from your own for Horizon to consider, one based on compassion for them both. Horizon can take what is helpful, and leave what is not, but clearly what you see as weakness, I see as strength.

And, as Wazza put it "Open your heart to the one who tromped on it, or walk. That's the choice. What else is there? If you have a third option, lay it out"


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Warlock, from our PMs I know you know my position is similar. My wife did not come clean in the aftermath of her affair. We are over twenty years into what seems to be a successful reconciliation. On that basis, I reject your thought that it is ridiculous.
> 
> To be clear, I am not advocating some reckless reconciliation. I am urging Horizon to arrange his affairs so he can stand on his won two feet without her.
> 
> Not sure if you are married. But if you are, have you ever told your wife a white lie? Does that mean she can never trust you to tell the truth. (And a lot of spouses should be squirming at this question).
> 
> But if you want to reconcile, keeping score and apportioning blame may not be helpful. A great wrong has been done. It can never be undone. There is a place for sorting out problems, and there is a place for letting the past go. Horizon has to determine that for himself.


Allow me to chime in here for a minute. Some people don't want all the details, that's true. But in your case you reconciled without your wife coming clean. It is certainly an aberration for a successful reconciliation to occur under those conditions. In fact you yourself have in occasion commented that regrettably you will probably never know the entire truth. So when Warlock says ridiculous I don't really think it's that out of line because frankly what you and your wife have done given the constrictions could be termed ridiculous. I certainly could not have done it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Welcome to the real world Warlock.
> 
> Open your heart to the one who tromped on it, or walk. That's the choice. What else is there? If you have a third option, lay it out.
> 
> Gotta tell you, reconciling hurts. So does divorce, I believe.
> 
> I have consistently advised Horizon to put himself in a position where he can stand on his own two feet. I am not urging him to return like a lamb to the slaughter.
> 
> It is unfair, it is horrible, it sucks. I know that, I lived that. Doesn't make it untrue.
> 
> Many people on TAM see it as you do. Many don't reconcile. I reckon the two are connected.


The third option would be for her to say "I'm sorry. "


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Oh dear....I now where this is going to go, but what the hell....
> 
> What if you are the WS? What if you want to stay married? What if you are genuinely concerned that your spouse, if they know the truth, can't handle it?
> 
> Now, I am not arguing for lies....I am just saying, that trying to hose the situation down, while unwise, can be understandable?
> 
> Horizon, if you don't get the truth it WILL eat at you. But maybe your wife doesn't understand that.


Wazza, I love you like a brother. You took the gentle approach and never got the truth. And you admit that if Horizon doesn't get the truth it Will eat at him. Doesn't that mean if he takes the gentle approach or the compassionate approach he will also probably not get the truth and it Will eat at him.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> Warlock,
> Maybe you perceive contradictions where there aren't any.
> I am not Horizon' s wife, nor am personally involved in their situation. I have given a perspective which differs radically from your own for Horizon to consider, one based on compassion for them both. Horizon can take what is helpful, and leave what is not, but clearly what you see as weakness, I see as strength.


Explain how compassion for Horizon's wife works? So far the only thing that has made an even slight impact is him detaching and turning away from her.


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> Explain how compassion for Horizon's wife works? So far the only thing that has made an even slight impact is him detaching and turning away from her.


Yes, his detachment has brought her to her knees, a necessary process. She has revealed the weakness, vulnerability and pain she previously hid from him which made her ripe to fall for the charms of another. If the revelation of her weakness inspires revulsion rather than compassion, no hope is possible. The power balance is not conducive to a healthy relationship in future.

If you cannot see that lack of compassion in this situation is indicative of weakness, not strength, and cannot lead to the breakthrough which is desired, then so be it. It is a risk, but showing compassion at this point could increase her love and respect for him (his stated goal) whereas withholding it can only trap her in fear of him. At this point Horizon has the power to free her and himself or continue with an unreal relationship based on fear, domination, resentment etc. Or split altogether. It's his choice

I have seen men become abusers as a result of betrayal, even in new relationships. Scary.


----------



## Wazza

Bfree...my brother... 

The first thing to understand is that I may have actually got the entire truth. But I can never know because of the way in which she told me (if it was the truth). 

A difference I attach significance to.

The second thing is I am not the only person on TAM in this position. A statement I will not defend, because it would mean quoting PMs, but none the less true. Reconciles seem to be less common on TAM than divorces. That doesn't surprise me. I am 23 years out and TAM still causes me to trigger sometimes.....I can well understand someone closer to the infidelity not hanging around.

The third point is to repeat that I am NOT advocating a mindless reconciliation. Not at all. If I can only give Horizon one piece of advice, it is...stand on your own two feet. Do not be dependent on your wife...because divorce or reconcile, you need to.

The thing I am supporting from Clair is this....if you want to reconcile, mercy is a part of it. I have no idea whether Mrs Horizon is penitent and trying the best she can to sort this out, or a manipulative b1tch trying to calm Horizon down so she can go back to her affair.

(Sorry Horizon, I imagine those words really hurt, but that is how it is)

If I insisted on appropriate penitence from my wife, I would divorce her, because NOTHNG will make up for what she did. Once I let go of that, I can make some decisions.

My wife lied because she is ashamed. She lied because she was scared of my reaction. In the fog, maybe she lied because of her contempt for me at the time, but that is a long time ago.

Is Mrs Horizon doing the right thing to lie? Absolutely not. She is either ensuring divorce or banking decades of pain for herself and Horizon. 

Can I understand her lying? Absolutely.


----------



## Wazza

Clair said:


> Yes, his detachment has brought her to her knees, a necessary process. She has revealed the weakness, vulnerability and pain she previously hid from him which made her ripe to fall for the charms of another. If the revelation of her weakness inspires revulsion rather than compassion, no hope is possible. The power balance is not conducive to a healthy relationship in future.
> 
> If you cannot see that lack of compassion in this situation is indicative of weakness, not strength, and cannot lead to the breakthrough which is desired, then so be it. It is a risk, but showing compassion at this point could increase her love and respect for him (his stated goal) whereas withholding it can only trap her in fear of him. At this point Horizon has the power to free her and himself or continue with an unreal relationship. Or split altogether. It's his choice


It will probably be a very long time before he can offer genuine sustained compassion...if ever.

Forgiveness might be a more achievable word.


----------



## LongWalk

It was amazing that Horizon managed to shift her position of disregard even an inch.


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> Problem - she's getting upset tonight. She wants to know why I don't want to talk. I'm trying to stay neutral but....
> 
> She has quite rightly pointed out that we have gone back to where we were long before DDay. With me detached and not caring. "What are we going to do?" she asks.
> 
> I told her I'm not exactly sure how I feel about her, maybe a bad move but the whole detach is too obvious. I said I cannot believe her story about the PA with the snake and she looks at me and says - "Were you there?...were you there?" - "No" - "Then hoe do you know?" - "because it defies human logic" - "In your world it does"
> 
> No argument recorded as yet - end of transmission.


Polygraph time.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> Warlock,
> Maybe you perceive contradictions where there aren't any.
> I am not Horizon' s wife, nor am personally involved in their situation. I have given a perspective which differs radically from your own for Horizon to consider, one based on compassion for them both. Horizon can take what is helpful, and leave what is not, but clearly what you see as weakness, I see as strength.


Ok, i will list them out for you from our last post. 



> but he has the choice of taking the risk, of having faith in her ability to be a better person and treat him with the love and respect he desires.


Which was how it was supposed to be before the affair discovery. What kind of reality are you in ? Affair changes stuff. She has to prove to him that she loves him and needs him. Not just a nanny until the kids grow up enough and kick him out. What assurance does he have that she is just biding time for the storm to pass over and start another affair ? No palpable signs during affair, no guilt when she was in it, no tearful confessions...



> Of course genuine remorse is the essential on her part to enable him to begin to let go of the pain and fear of the past.


How do you know it is genuine remorse ? Her actions don't suggest remorse. Just a vague acknowledgement that she had an affair, it was a mistake but she deserved it because of his actions. 



> Only Horizon can decide if her remorse is real, and what things she must do to show him.


Yet you ask him to open up to her. I don't know what agenda you have or what other threads you read. But whatever she is doing is, simply not enough. That is not how a remorseful spouse acts. I am observing a huge feminist bias in your posts. Trust is not given, especially after year long affairs and repeated lies and manipulation(after the discovery) 



> She has already hurt him as much as she could.


How do you open up to person that hurt you as much as she could ?





> And, as Wazza put it "Open your heart to the one who tromped on it, or walk. That's the choice. What else is there? If you have a third option, lay it out


This is just black and white thinking. Whatever Horizon is doing is called the process of deciding what to do. He is in the limbo. He sees tiny bits of hope, that give him hope admist all the negativity of her lies and the affair. He wants to cling on to them desperately but he is not sure if they are enough. His feelings are discounted as being irrational and invalid. he is in his own limbo, uncertain if she can do enough to repair the marriage. When you or Wazza says "R or get out", he hasn't made the decision yet. Actually makes me even more surprised that Wazza would say it. Only because he was in 5 years of limbo before he decided to.



There is a reason I asked you if you are related to the situation. You registered yesterday and you only posted in this thread defending the wife and the bias is very telling...So, if you are indeed the wife, this whole thing would be a better discussion TBH. I think you will get better help that way.


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> Infidelity cannot be justified. But I can empathise with Clair's POV. The fact is, as I have admitted here, I was not the most pleasant man to be with. I had neglected my health, I had become sarcastic, I made snide comments and I did not have much consideration for my partner.
> 
> I was in a world of pain - depression, self hatred. However I did not neglect my family, my children, but I did neglect my partner. On the flip side she also neglected me. It became a chicken / egg argument but the fact is we turned from each other. In this respect the ground was prepared for the possibility of an affair.
> 
> You think I didn't want the same thing sometimes? Think again? Of course I did. But the opportunity did not present itself at any time. And to be dead honest I didn't present well anyway. But the thought of it did leave me with the consequences debate in my own mind (could I really do that, do I really want to go down that path?) - something my partner was not able to do. She got caught up big time and went with it.
> 
> See, I fully understand how it can happen - sadly it happens all to frequently. Seriously it's embedded in some cultures as the norm. But for me - never justified. As bfree says - there are so many alternatives to cheating. As we both well know the fallout is simply not worth it.
> 
> Here's the thing - my partner collapsed into a sobbing heap last night just after the kids went to bed. We spoke earlier in the evening as I reported and I knew that she wanted to talk more.
> 
> Yes she had a few drinks as per usual but this was different folks. I know many of you will already be waving your bright black and yellow "CAUTION" signs but this was not the norm. She was an emotional wreck.
> 
> She told me she could not eat and sleep properly, she said she was scared that she would lose me. She was just about begging me to forgive her, she held my hands so tight her knuckles were white. She kept sobbing and repeating how sorry she was for screwing it all up, for doing that to me for trashing everything we had. It was tough stuff.
> 
> She just kept going and going, falling apart in front of me - I have never seen anything like it. Don't forget this is a woman with the hide of a Rhinoceros. You think this was an act? IMO this was no act, this was a woman who after three days of my version of the 180 couldn't take anymore.
> 
> At first she approached, while I was reading TAM, and wanted to continue on from the earlier talk. I calmly repeated that it was part of the process, that I had to detach and that I could not help her with what was happening to her. I repeated that I was the one responsible for fixing me, that she could not help me and that this was how I had to do it. I reminded her that I am not disrespecting her on any level or ignoring her but that to heal I had to detach.
> 
> She entirely agreed and then talked about having to be strong for our kids and our son in particular. I pointed out that he needed me just as much. From this point she went downhill very quickly and then fell apart.
> 
> I did not feel guilty but I did not reject her - I offered supportive words but said I had to do this alone. She was a mess. It was not pretty but it was necessary. Clearly she understands or is understanding how her deflections and defences no longer hold weight with me, that this is not in fact a return to pre-affair days but a much needed process.
> 
> I will not give up - I do feel that we have a chance at recon. In time I will give her a list of things that must change. Top of the list is alcohol. I will also note what I will change about my own behavior keeping in mind that I am well into that zone already. Just the beginning eh?
> 
> Thanks to you all for your support and guidance - it would be great to meet you in person one day and have a drink (just a couple!). You are like family and I wont forget what you have done for me.


This was the time to bring up the poly to move forward.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> Yes, his detachment has brought her to her knees, a necessary process. She has revealed the weakness, vulnerability and pain she previously hid from him which made her ripe to fall for the charms of another. If the revelation of her weakness inspires revulsion rather than compassion, no hope is possible. The power balance is not conducive to a healthy relationship in future.
> 
> If you cannot see that lack of compassion in this situation is indicative of weakness, not strength, and cannot lead to the breakthrough which is desired, then so be it. It is a risk, but showing compassion at this point could increase her love and respect for him (his stated goal) whereas withholding it can only trap her in fear of him. At this point Horizon has the power to free her and himself or continue with an unreal relationship based on fear, domination, resentment etc. Or split altogether. It's his choice


Also called plan A and that is often found to be spectacularly successful in railroading nice guy BS by narcissist WS. 

The compassion part is essential but it comes after a true apology and remorse.



> I have seen men become abusers as a result of betrayal, even in new relationships. Scary.


Women can become abusers too, in new relationships too. That part can be addressed once OP starts the actual R process.


----------



## Clair

Wazza said:


> It will probably be a very long time before he can offer genuine sustained compassion...if ever.
> 
> Forgiveness might be a more achievable word.


Yes, it is something that has to be deliberately worked on. Few are saints, or can be, but I have found that understanding how a person came to be what they are shifts the balance away from condemnation towards compassion which itself increases the ability to forgive them, along with their remorse of course. 

Perhaps the greater the remorse the greater the desire to forgive, and the greater the offence, the greater the remorse required. People vary, I think, in how much remorse they require to be able to forgive, according to how compassionate they are, or can become. This is different from being a doormat or allowing themselves to be abused, I hasten to add.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> It will probably be a very long time before he can offer genuine sustained compassion...if ever.
> 
> Forgiveness might be a more achievable word.


As usual you and I are more in agreement than not. My point was that it is simply too early to advocate for compassion. Until his wife embraces remorse and works toward atonement Horizon will most likely and understandably not trust her enough to offer compassion. The balancing act here is that she needs to reach that point before Horizon completely detached and no longer feels any love for his wife.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Bfree...my brother...
> 
> The first thing to understand is that I may have actually got the entire truth. But I can never know because of the way in which she told me (if it was the truth).
> 
> A difference I attach significance to.
> 
> The second thing is I am not the only person on TAM in this position. A statement I will not defend, because it would mean quoting PMs, but none the less true. Reconciles seem to be less common on TAM than divorces. That doesn't surprise me. I am 23 years out and TAM still causes me to trigger sometimes.....I can well understand someone closer to the infidelity not hanging around.
> 
> The third point is to repeat that I am NOT advocating a mindless reconciliation. Not at all. If I can only give Horizon one piece of advice, it is...stand on your own two feet. Do not be dependent on your wife...because divorce or reconcile, you need to.
> 
> The thing I am supporting from Clair is this....if you want to reconcile, mercy is a part of it. I have no idea whether Mrs Horizon is penitent and trying the best she can to sort this out, or a manipulative b1tch trying to calm Horizon down so she can go back to her affair.
> 
> (Sorry Horizon, I imagine those words really hurt, but that is how it is)
> 
> If I insisted on appropriate penitence from my wife, I would divorce her, because NOTHNG will make up for what she did. Once I let go of that, I can make some decisions.
> 
> My wife lied because she is ashamed. She lied because she was scared of my reaction. In the fog, maybe she lied because of her contempt for me at the time, but that is a long time ago.
> 
> Is Mrs Horizon doing the right thing to lie? Absolutely not. She is either ensuring divorce or banking decades of pain for herself and Horizon.
> 
> Can I understand her lying? Absolutely.


Again we agree but reconciliation only comes after remorse, if at all.


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> As usual you and I are more in agreement than not. My point was that it is simply too early to advocate for compassion. Until his wife embraces remorse and works toward atonement Horizon will most likely and understandably not trust her enough to offer compassion. The balancing act here is that she needs to reach that point before Horizon completely detached and no longer feels any love for his wife.


What does he have to lose by trying to reach a more compassionate perspective? He doesn't have to stay if she trashes this gift, but why not take the risk in the hope it will lead to more love, more remorse for the pain she has caused, not less? And besides, she has aleady shown signs of deep remorse.

Compassion means detaching from the hurt without detaching from the love Horizon says he still feels.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> Yes, his detachment has brought her to her knees, a necessary process. She has revealed the weakness, vulnerability and pain she previously hid from him which made her ripe to fall for the charms of another. If the revelation of her weakness inspires revulsion rather than compassion, no hope is possible. The power balance is not conducive to a healthy relationship in future.
> 
> If you cannot see that lack of compassion in this situation is indicative of weakness, not strength, and cannot lead to the breakthrough which is desired, then so be it. It is a risk, but showing compassion at this point could increase her love and respect for him (his stated goal) whereas withholding it can only trap her in fear of him. At this point Horizon has the power to free her and himself or continue with an unreal relationship based on fear, domination, resentment etc. Or split altogether. It's his choice
> 
> I have seen men become abusers as a result of betrayal, even in new relationships. Scary.


Horizon is following the 180 and because he is trying to detach I don't see him becoming abusive. If you are filled with resentment you aren't detached. That is why the 180 works. I also completely disagree with you about showing compassion at this stage. Compassionate overtures from Horizon right now would only further embolden his wife to attempt to rugsweep this situation and continue her maltreatment of him. THAT would result in resentment and potentially abusive treatment in my opinion.


----------



## arbitrator

*Reasons That The WS's Lie To Their Betrayed Counterpart, Either Directly or by Omission:*


To cover up the truth from the BS.
To cover up or occlude the truth from family and friends, primarily out of some innate sense of shame.
To intentionally inflict mental hurt on BS. 
To attempt to place themselves in a far better light.
To deceptively try to paint themselves as the victim and the BS as the ogre in the relationship.

To attempt to save face.
To continue to perpetuate and nurture their illicit clandestine relationship.
To self justifyingly lie, when the truth would probably sound far better.
The sheer excitement and rush that they seemingly derive from lying, much like the excitement they get from having sex with their AP.

And there's probably plenty of other viable reasons that I have failed to list here! But if you will richly read through their convoluted maze of deception, as well as their faulty psychological rationale, the truth will speak to you far louder and clearer than any confession that they could ever come to utter!


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> What does he have to lose by trying to reach a more compassionate perspective? He doesn't have to stay if she trashes this gift, but why not take the risk in the hope it will lead to more love, not less?


Why does she have to change anything if he becomes more compassionate after her affair ? Doesn't it send a message that the affair had to happen ?

Compassion will come but it will take time.

Even worse would be forgiving her for the affair when she hasn't asked for it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> What does he have to lose by trying to reach a more compassionate perspective? He doesn't have to stay if she trashes this gift, but why not take the risk in the hope it will lead to more love, not less?


What does he have to lose? His self respect. 

By detaching he protects himself from further abusive treatment by her and protects her from abuse by him borne of resentment. You do realize that your advice goes against all conventional thinking. There is not one relationship counselor out there that advocated living someone out of an affair. I have never seen it work in all the years I counseled men. Show me one book, one counselor, one success story that demonstrates that you can love someone out of an affair. At least outside of Hollywood and romance novels.


----------



## BobSimmons

This is a grown man. His decision on what to do with his life and whom with.


----------



## Horizon

Well I was a little more attentive this morning - picked up the Saturday morning paper for her (as normal), made coffee gave her a hug. That's it. She's OK.

Then we go out tonight, as a family, to a big sport awards night and at some point I said to her (can't remember what triggered it - it's always there anyway) 

"there are some things we have to change if this is to move ahead. At the top of the list is drinking. If you can really try to deal with that or at least cut back, something...."

And her expression darkened considerably. She looked away from the other people seated near us and tears began to form in her eyes - she then said. "Don't tell me how to live my life".

I guess I just don't know how to pick my moments. By then she'd had two glasses of wine, nothing much, but just enough to have a "glow" up. The thing is she equates drinking with having a good time - she has been doing this her whole life and long before she ever met me. Would it really have mattered when I mentioned this?

I forgot to mention that our Counselor told her that the ten year difference in our ages is significant in that I, as the elder, would have to some degree a father like relationship with her, by virtue of my age alone. That I would act that way and she would see me in that vein to some degree. So yes, I am the fun Police and annoying parent in a sense. Something more for her to dig her heals in.

I want a tender touchy feely relationship where affection is obvious. It has never really been like this. What the bloody hell type of relationship have we been having all these years?? Both dissatisfied at something or other.

Over the last six weeks I was trying to be more compassionate - but to my mind I think it was just neediness. Last night it was much more mature - I handled her fears and tears with a genuine compassion. But today it all seems to go back to neutral.

As though this line of her's about not being open with me or connecting more intimately because of my emotional roller coaster still commands her.

Surely it's all BS? last night she was genuinely upset and apologetic and remorseful but I feel like there should be something else. WHY doesn't she come in alongside me and put her arm through mine? Oh right....why don't I do that??? 

I've kicked straight back into my 180 today. I think she should be coming at me and yes, I am concerned that if I put it out there she will be less than I want in reply. Love is a risk but I'm just left wondering what is the real deal here - what the hell is really going on between us. I'm confused about that but I'm clear on the 180 - but what next???


----------



## bryanp

Trying to deal with a major drinker is always a lost cause.


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> What does he have to lose? His self respect.
> 
> By detaching he protects himself from further abusive treatment by her and protects her from abuse by him borne of resentment. You do realize that your advice goes against all conventional thinking. There is not one relationship counselor out there that advocated living someone out of an affair. I have never seen it work in all the years I counseled men. Show me one book, one counselor, one success story that demonstrates that you can love someone out of an affair. At least outside of Hollywood and romance novels.


 Not what I meant. The affair not actively on going and Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse. It is, as I think you said before, a balancing act between remorse and compassion.


----------



## bfree

What's next? It's her move. You just have to be open to receiving it if it's offered, until you have detached to the point that you open to it anymore.


----------



## Clair

warlock07 said:


> Why does she have to change anything if he becomes more compassionate after her affair ? Doesn't it send a message that the affair had to happen ?
> .


I don't think so. It sends the message that despite her great offence, he still cares for her and is willing to try to reconcile and forgive, providing certain conditions are met. She also needs to believe he is sincere and doesn't want to punish her out of vengeance.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> Not what I meant. The affair not actively on going and Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse. It is, as I think you said before, a balancing act between remorse and compassion.


Is the affair over? Has it gone underground? Are they just letting things cool off? See thats's the problem when remorse is not forthcoming. How do you really know where you stand? That's why Horizon needs to stand alone on his own two feet. Then he'll know where he stands. And if his wife wants to come stand beside him then reconciliation can proceed and compassion can be shown.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> Not what I meant. The affair not actively on going and Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse. It is, as I think you said before, a balancing act between remorse and compassion.


How do you know it is not ongoing ?


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> Is the affair over? Has it gone underground? Are they just letting things cool off? See thats's the problem when remorse is not forthcoming. How do you really know where you stand? That's why Horizon needs to stand alone on his own two feet. Then he'll know where he stands. And if his wife wants to come stand beside him then reconciliation can proceed and compassion can be shown.


I think her breakdown the other evening is a pretty good sign of remorse. At least I hope so. I would find it hard to see someone I cared about in such abject misery, but if it was just an act (and I honestly don't think so ), it was an Oscar performance. On the other hand, if compassion is not shown where appropriate, he will drive her away.

I do realise that trust takes time to build, but this could be the beginning of the breakthrough?


----------



## Clair

warlock07 said:


> How do you know it is not ongoing ?


I thought Horizon had verified it wasn't?


----------



## Shaggy

Have the two of you read His Needs Her Needs?

In addition to her choice to not only cheat, but willingly choose to give the OM the very sexual and emotional thing you desire, that the two of you are very much not connecting the way you want and need to.


----------



## Robsia

Hands up who thinks Clair is Horizon's missus?


----------



## Shaggy

And be on the alert whenever a WS gets attitude and defiant especially if the begin needing space and time. A that is almost always the affair or a new affair firing up.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> I thought Horizon had verified it wasn't?


A cheater can start cheating again..

tears without action mean nothing...

Tears are often used as a manipulative tool


----------



## Clair

warlock07 said:


> A cheater can start cheating again..
> 
> tears without action mean nothing...
> 
> Tears are often used as a manipulative tool


On the other hand, tears are often genuine, and precede meaningful action. And in this case, they were out of character. Love is a risk, as Horizon said himself, but you do sound very cynical.


----------



## alte Dame

Horizon, with your WW's drinking, you're like the frog cooking in the slowly boiling water. You're so used to her drinking that you don't see it as the front burner issue that it really is.

The idea of loving her out of her affair mindset, especially when she has such a serious drinking problem, is ludicrous.

I applaud you for bringing the issue up, but if you really want to see positive change, you are well-advised to draw a line in the sand about her alcoholism. It won't matter whether she's chasing after an OM if she dies young from the ravages of booze.

(Not to mention the behavioral effects of her addiction - you would be dealing with a markedly different person if she were sober.)


----------



## Clair

Robsia said:


> Hands up who thinks Clair is Horizon's missus?


Lol! I have been married 37 years and am a mother of five and grandmother of three! Besides, we are continents apart.


----------



## warlock07

Clair said:


> On the other hand, tears are often genuine, and precede meaningful action. And in this case, they were out of character. Love is a risk, as Horizon said himself, but you do sound very cynical.


She teared up when he brought up her alcoholic addiction. Did you not notice


----------



## Clair

warlock07 said:


> She teared up when he brought up her alcoholic addiction. Did you not notice


So that proves her remorse is fake? It was only a couple of drinks and Horizon said it wasn't the right occasion to raise his concerns about her drinking in general. You surely don't expect overnight change on this, especially during such a traumatic time?

Like I said, if Horizon shows zero compassion for her suffering at this point, he will drive her back to OM, or worse.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> I think her breakdown the other evening is a pretty good sign of remorse. At least I hope so. I would find it hard to see someone I cared about in such abject misery, but if it was just an act (and I honestly don't think so ), it was an Oscar performance. On the other hand, if compassion is not shown where appropriate, he will drive her away.
> 
> I do realise that trust takes time to build, but this could be the beginning of the breakthrough?


It is only the beginning if she follows up with actions. Words, even when accompanied by tears, are still only words. If she takes steps to end her drinking then that to me would be a sign that she is serious and truly remorseful.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> Lol! I have been married 37 years and am a mother of five and grandmother of three! Besides, we are continents apart.


So as a mother would you teach your children by giving them a hug when they did something wrong or would you demonstrate the consequences of their actions? Which would reinforce the better lesson?


----------



## aug

Horizon said:


> And her expression darkened considerably. She looked away from the other people seated near us and tears began to form in her eyes - she then said. *"Don't tell me how to live my life".*
> 
> ...
> 
> I forgot to mention that our Counselor told her that the ten year difference in our ages is significant in that I, as the elder, would have to some degree* a father like relationship with her*, by virtue of my age alone. That I would act that way and she would see me in that vein to some degree. So yes, I am the fun Police and annoying parent in a sense. Something more for her to dig her heals in.
> 
> I want a tender touchy feely relationship where affection is obvious. It has never really been like this. What the bloody hell type of relationship have we been having all these years?? Both dissatisfied at something or other.



There you go...

"Don't tell me how to live my life" -- That's not remorse showing through.

Your counselor is an idiot. He wants you to be her father. At your age and her age? She still needs a father?

Doesn't her statement, "Don't tell me how to live my life", resonate like a teenager where you're the father?

You cant have a sexual "tender touchy feely relationship" with a "daughter".


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> Not what I meant. The affair not actively on going and Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse. It is, as I think you said before, a balancing act between remorse and compassion.


Please explain how one balances remorse.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> I don't think so. It sends the message that despite her great offence, he still cares for her and is willing to try to reconcile and forgive, providing certain conditions are met. She also needs to believe he is sincere and doesn't want to punish her out of vengeance.


Are you turning this around on Horizon?


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> So as a mother would you teach your children by giving them a hug when they did something wrong or would you demonstrate the consequences of their actions? Which would reinforce the better lesson?


If they expressed remorse I would hug them, but also ground them etc. or require them to take some action which addresses the undesirable behavior.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> I think her breakdown the other evening is a pretty good sign of remorse. At least I hope so. I would find it hard to see someone I cared about in such abject misery, but if it was just an act (and I honestly don't think so ), it was an Oscar performance. On the other hand, if compassion is not shown where appropriate, he will drive her away.
> 
> I do realise that trust takes time to build, but this could be the beginning of the breakthrough?


This, again, is turning things on Horizon.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> On the other hand, tears are often genuine, and precede meaningful action. And in this case, they were out of character. Love is a risk, as Horizon said himself, but you do sound very cynical.


On the other hand, the sound of your posts is very naive, or agenda driven to deny Horizon's legitimate concerns.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> Please explain how one balances remorse.


I meant there should be a balance between her remorse and his compassion.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> This, again, is turning things on Horizon.


No it isn't.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> So that proves her remorse is fake? It was only a couple of drinks and Horizon said it wasn't the right occasion to raise his concerns about her drinking in general. You surely don't expect overnight change on this, especially during such a traumatic time?
> 
> Like I said, if Horizon shows zero compassion for her suffering at this point, he will drive her back to OM, or worse.


You can't let up on the man. If she can be driven back to OM, where is her remorse?

Do you have a strong background as a WW? Your posts indicate that is the case.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> On the other hand, the sound of your posts is very naive, or agenda driven to deny Horizon's legitimate concerns.


Okaydokey.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> You can't let up on the man. If she can be driven back to OM, where is her remorse?
> 
> Do you have a strong background as a WW? Your posts indicate that is the case.


Lol, astonishing! Even if I had wanted to, I would never have had the time 
You really don't see how a WW could be driven back to OM if despite her sorrow, she was treated harshly and humiliated? The consequences could be worse than that too, if she has deep seated emotional problems.


----------



## alte Dame

I may be misremembering & if so, please ignore the remarks to follow.

Didn't you tell us (in an earlier thread?) that your W drinks on average a half bottle of hard liquor per night? At least?

No amount of hugging will cure that situation, if true. Compassion, yes. Always compassion. But compassion won't be the ticket that gets her to face her drinking. You have a monster problem on your hands regarding the alcohol. The infidelity is concomitant, in my opinion. Both behaviors are very self-destructive.


----------



## LongWalk

alte Dame said:


> Horizon, with your WW's drinking, *you're like the frog cooking in the slowly boiling water*. You're so used to her drinking that you don't see it as the front burner issue that it really is.:iagree:
> 
> The idea of loving her out of her affair mindset, especially when she has such a serious drinking problem, is ludicrous.
> 
> I applaud you for bringing the issue up, but if you really want to see positive change, you are well-advised to draw a line in the sand about her alcoholism. It won't matter whether she's chasing after an OM if she dies young from the ravages of booze.
> 
> (Not to mention the behavioral effects of her addiction - you would be dealing with a markedly different person if she were sober.A sober ex alcoholic is not necessarily a cool person. The drunkard might be more fun, except for their destructive behavior. It's amazing to think how central alcohol is in establishing relationships. Without a drink many are too shy to start a conversation.)


:iagree:
Dealing with her addiction to alcohol is the number one issue. At this point she would choose cheap red wine over anything. Even a fantastic potential OM who didn't drink would not allure her at all.


----------



## LongWalk

Clair said:


> Lol, astonishing! Even if I had wanted to, I would never have had the time


Hi Clair,

TAM is place to learn and make friends. Don't take it too seriously if an idea is dissed. I have learned so much in a short time. Too bad I didn't figure this stuff out when I was in my 20s or 30s


----------



## Clair

Thanks LongWalk,
No problem, I just happened on this site, and am learning too. Just giving my opinion -I have no experience in this particular issue.


----------



## Clair

alte Dame said:


> I may be misremembering & if so, please ignore the remarks to follow.
> 
> Didn't you tell us (in an earlier thread?) that your W drinks on average a half bottle of hard liquor per night? At least?
> 
> No amount of hugging will cure that situation, if true. Compassion, yes. Always compassion. But compassion won't be the ticket that gets her to face her drinking. You have a monster problem on your hands regarding the alcohol. The infidelity is concomitant, in my opinion. Both behaviors are very self-destructive.


Alcoholism needs professional help.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> Lol, astonishing! Even if I had wanted to, I would never have had the time
> You really don't see how a WW could be driven back to OM if despite her sorrow, she was treated harshly and humiliated? The consequences could be worse than that too, if she has deep seated emotional problems.


Not if she is remorseful.

But you can see it!


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> Thanks LongWalk,
> No problem, I just happened on this site, and am learning too. Just giving my opinion -I have no experience in this particular issue.


Well, that's the problem. 

You are giving uninformed advice to a real person who has the worst problem an adult can have.

Restraint in posting is your friend.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> Not if she is remorseful.
> 
> But you can!


What would be the point in staying if her remorse was not accepted? I don't mean continue the affair without leaving the spouse first. In fact neither staying in a dead relationship nor continuing the escapist, fantasy one is advisable.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> Well, that's the problem.
> 
> You are giving uninformed advice to a real person who has the worst problem an adult can have.
> 
> Restraint in posting is your friend.


Ok, bye now, but I wasn't advising anyone, just offering another perspective for Horizon to consider. Besides, you misunderstood my views and do seem to be very cynical. I do wonder why you say the betrayal of a spouse is the worst problem any adult can have though - not to minimize it's terrible effect. 

Best wishes, Horizon.


----------



## 2asdf2

Clair said:


> What would be the point in staying if her remorse was not accepted? I don't mean continue the affair without leaving the spouse first. In fact neither staying in a dead relationship nor continuing the escapist, fantasy one is advisable.


We were not talking about leaving. You were talking about being driven back to the OM.


----------



## aug

Clair said:


> *What would be the point in staying if her remorse was not accepted?* I don't mean continue the affair without leaving the spouse first. In fact neither staying in a dead relationship nor continuing the escapist, fantasy one is advisable.


The problem here is that she is not truly deeply remorseful yet. Without real remorse, reconciliation is not a benefit.


----------



## Clair

aug said:


> The problem here is that she is not truly deeply remorseful yet. Without real remorse, reconciliation is not a benefit.


I agree that reconciliation presupposes remorse. How do you know she isn't remorseful? I hope she is, and I do see signs of it, but caution is still advisable. Trust, but verify.


----------



## Clair

2asdf2 said:


> As I already mentioned in regards to your comment to another poster, not cynical, but informed.


I don't want to argue with you. Just ignore my comments if you don't like them.


----------



## Clair

Sounds like a threat! Yikes!

You didn't explain why you think betrayal by a spouse is the worst possible suffering any adult can experience. I don't think it would be for myself personally


----------



## LongWalk

Clair said:


> Thanks LongWalk,
> No problem, I just happened on this site, and am learning too. Just giving my opinion -I have no experience in this particular issue.


Yes, you do. I thought cheating was not part of my divorce. But when I thought back to the entire relationship with my ex, I realized there were all sort of little incidents and choices, where cheating could have developed on my side or hers.

I think it is very common. People look at other's partners and spouses. People smile at each other or have conversations that could go to the cheating side of town.

Not all the cheaters are evil monsters. Part of life.

Also, I realized that my 81-year-old mother had an EA with a man who had been friends with my parents when i was a small child. He sponsored my parents to get US citizenship. I don't know the legal details. That friendship disappeared for many years.

Then at the very end while my father has Alzheimer's my mother is in an EA with him. He used to complain about his wife to my mother. There was no possibility of PA with all the health problems. The guy died not long ago. My other talked so openly about him, worrying about him, one day it hit me. He was the guy she would have imagined as a better husband, even though she loves my dad and they have had meaningful marriage.

She actually wanted me to meet him. He called up one day and I ended up driving him to the gym when I went swimming, he as legally blind and unable to drive. A very nice guy. Retired professor. Engineering or science. 

At this point in life I realized that they didn't even hide the EA because everyone is just going die soon anyway.

So, I agree with you that relationships are complicated.

One thing that I have learned from TAM is that marriage is just a legal agreement. It is not guarantee that a marriage will deliver. The contract doesn't even have a no cheating clause anymore. There is no clause about feelings, respect or anything. That sort of deal exists in church wedding vows, but those have no legal power.

There are MC but no police who come and arrest people for falling out of love, giving up on the sex life, etc. TAM would not even exist or be interesting if it were not for the fact that our expectations and reality are so at odds.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Clair said:


> If they expressed remorse I would hug them, but also ground them etc. or require them to take some action which addresses the undesirable behavior.


And because they were children you could enforce those consequences. Since Horizon is not her father, regardless what his counselor thinks, the only way he can enforce consequences is to detach and demonstrate in some small ways that her emotional and physical needs won't be met unless she is remorseful for the damage she caused. Regret is expressed in words, remorse is demonstrated with actions. If she demonstrates she's remorseful and accepts the consequences of her actions then I'm sure the hugs will follow.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Clair said:


> On the other hand, tears are often genuine, and precede meaningful action. And in this case, they were out of character. Love is a risk, as Horizon said himself, but you do sound very cynical.


Yes, and if I get all of the "snot bubble threads" with crying and the next "meaningful action" was a deeper affair, a new affair or continued contact what then?

I'm going to disagree. New and initial Love is a risk, once it is destroyed you either quit or rebuild a stronger bond. This isn't new love, IMO it is restructured love. The only thing new is the dynamics of the relationship. This time, you know the potential hurdles something you don't with new love.

I can get you multiple posts by the most ARDENT Rs and TAM haters, where every one of those posters talks about triggers, fights, and bad days. Some of which are triggering 20 years later. 20 years later and the poster triggered so bad, so angry he was reporting posts to the mods and he was trying to dictate how the conversation went. He had to leave the thread.

That was my first wake up call to the seriousness of Affairs and how reconciliation NEVER stops. That's something that needs to be mentioned yea or nay. Trust will ALWAYS be an issue.


----------



## aug

Clair said:


> I agree that reconciliation presupposes remorse. *How do you know she isn't remorseful?* I hope she is, and I do see signs of it, but caution is still advisable. Trust, but verify.


By her actions and her words.


----------



## Robsia

Clair said:


> I do wonder why you say the betrayal of a spouse is the worst problem any adult can have though - not to minimize it's terrible effect.


Having actually experienced it, I can tell you it is pretty bad. It is generally considered that the only thing worse is a bereavement. It IS a bereavement. Your marriage is dead, murdered by your WS.

The problem is with a betrayal, the one person you normally count on to help you through a bereavement is the person who did this to you. So they were the cause and cannot be the comfort.

So you have to deal with this horrific pain done to you by the one person you thought you could rely on more than anything in the world, and the person who would normally comfort you...can't.


----------



## Clair

Interesting, LongWalk. I never thought of it that way before, but could become quite paranoid dwelling on it. EA' s in particular are hard to tell apart from purely platonic friendships, but hey, you got me thinking. 

It would certainly be startling to discover my H of 37 years had been hiding one or more illicit liaisons from me. I would have felt my security threatened when the kids were growing up and I was actually dependent on him. At this point in my life, I am not dependent on him. I mean he enhances my life and we enjoy each other's company, but my happiness doesn't totally depend on him. 

I have seen the devastation that affairs cause in those close to me - cousin took her own life, for example, and have been friends with couples caught up in that situation. I have also seen the damage past betrayals cause in subsequent relationships, and to children. It is a huge social problem, and I'm not sure what can be done about it.


----------



## Clair

Robsia said:


> Having actually experienced it, I can tell you it is pretty bad. It is generally considered that the only thing worse is a bereavement. It IS a bereavement. Your marriage is dead, murdered by your WS.
> 
> The problem is with a betrayal, the one person you normally count on to help you through a bereavement is the person who did this to you. So they were the cause and cannot be the comfort.
> 
> So you have to deal with this horrific pain done to you by the one person you thought you could rely on more than anything in the world, and the person who would normally comfort you...can't.


Yes, someone close to me took her own life due to a complete breakdown following her H' s affair. Left three young kids. I know of two others, same thing. Whole extended families devastated.

I'm sorry to hear of your own experience, and I suppose in the end we all must rely on ourselves. I am curious about what those who have gone through it take from the experience though.


----------



## Robsia

Clair said:


> Interesting, LongWalk.


Also, please remember that while you are blithely opining and finding things 'interesting' most of us here have actually experienced what you are talking about with ZERO experience of what it really feels like.

So you've got a lot of raw, hurting people here who might be a touch offended by your uninformed commentary.

We're not a sociology project.


----------



## Clair

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, and if I get all of the "snot bubble threads" with crying and the next "meaningful action" was a deeper affair, a new affair or continued contact what then?
> 
> I'm going to disagree. New and initial Love is a risk, once it is destroyed you either quit or rebuild a stronger bond. This isn't new love, IMO it is restructured love. The only thing new is the dynamics of the relationship. This time, you know the potential hurdles something you don't with new love.
> 
> I can get you multiple posts by the most ARDENT Rs and TAM haters, where every one of those posters talks about triggers, fights, and bad days. Some of which are triggering 20 years later. 20 years later and the poster triggered so bad, so angry he was reporting posts to the mods and he was trying to dictate how the conversation went. He had to leave the thread.
> 
> That was my first wake up call to the seriousness of Affairs and how reconciliation NEVER stops. That's something that needs to be mentioned yea or nay. Trust will ALWAYS be an issue.


I don't disagree. Maybe people become too dependent on one another, and the new dynamic should focus on that issue?


----------



## Clair

Robsia said:


> Also, please remember that while you are blithely opining and finding things 'interesting' most of us here have actually experienced what you are talking about with ZERO experience of what it really feels like.
> 
> So you've got a lot of raw, hurting people here who might be a touch offended by your uninformed commentary.
> 
> We're not a sociology project.


I am sorry you feel that way. No offence intended. I understand and have experienced deep grief too, you know, and have witnessed the devastation affairs cause in friends and relatives. My own daughter was nearly murdered by a partner who took his rage over a betrayal by a previous partner out on her. She is still damaged. I think that's what drew me here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Clair said:


> I suppose in the end we all must rely on ourselves.


We all need help at times, if you are religious, even Jesus did.


----------



## Rollin

phillybeffandswiss said:


> We all need help at times, if you are religious, even Jesus did.


Yea but the person who can help you the most is yourself.


----------



## Clair

bfree said:


> And because they were children you could enforce those consequences. Since Horizon is not her father, regardless what his counselor thinks, the only way he can enforce consequences is to detach and demonstrate in some small ways that her emotional and physical needs won't be met unless she is remorseful for the damage she caused. Regret is expressed in words, remorse is demonstrated with actions. If she demonstrates she's remorseful and accepts the consequences of her actions then I'm sure the hugs will follow.


Didn't disagree with that either. I did express the hope that Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse though, not just faking it. I still hope so, and that its the beginning of better things for him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Rollin said:


> Yea but the person who can help you the most is yourself.


 As Clair noted, in one of her examples, this is not always the case. Hence my comment and disagreement of "in the end." I'd rather not spell it out.


----------



## treyvion

Clair said:


> Didn't disagree with that either. I did express the hope that Horizon' s wife is showing signs of remorse though, not just faking it. I still hope so, and that its the beginning of better things for him.


Depending on how long she's been doing affairs and how extensive her house of lies and second life was will determine how realistic. its going to be for her to return. If sjhes had a real elaborite setup going which was deeply integrated into her life its going to be almost impossible outside a near death experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Clair,

Since you are new and since you are indicating a desire to learn, especially in light of the fact that you thankfully haven't had to deal directly with the pain of infidelity, I am posting below something that my good friend Beowulf wrote to help WS try to understand what thoughts are going through the mind of a BS when dealing with this awful situation. Maybe it will help you to see at least a tiny glimpse into the excruciating agony that someone who is betrayed is feeling.

For context, Beowulf was cheated on by his wife Morrigan over 20 years ago. They have successfully reconciled and she has shown remorse and atonement each and every day since. But he still feels the sting of betrayal to this day as it is something that one truly never gets over.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain.html

_I know this post is not going to sit well with most WS here but in my opinion there seems to be a lot of difficulty understanding the pain the BS goes through after an affair is discovered. I know the WS is dealing with a lot of intense emotions such as guilt, shame, remorse, regret. But there seems to be a definite disconnect that I thought I'd address. While I am not the most intelligent or articulate person here on TAM I thought I’d try to describe the way my wife and I have come to understand the difference and how we related it to each other.

A person who has an affair does indeed have to deal with a lot of pain in the aftermath. They have to reevaluate their own identity and who they really are and their willingness to cause so much suffering to their loved ones. The statements “it’s just not in me to cheat” and “I could never do that” are in direct conflict with their actions. They have to come to the painful conclusion that they indeed are not the absolute good person they thought they were. They have to realize that there was something in them that allowed them to be selfish and cruel to the person or people they most cherished. And the scariest part is that they have to realize that since they’ve done it once they can do it again. Those self examinations are extremely difficult but necessary if the WS wants to become the person they always thought they already were and hope to actually become.

Here is where it gets hard for as much difficulty the WS has to go through they truly cannot comprehend the pain and anguish the BS has to endure. I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can’t express it. When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.

But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren’t! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse’s cherished love. You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murderer (the OM/OW) and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.

And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU? They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you. Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?

Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read “Just Let Them Go” even if they want to reconcile. Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife. It’s hard and it’s painful and it can only be done if the WS does everything to make the BS fall in love with them again._


----------



## Clair

phillybeffandswiss said:


> As Clair noted, in one of her examples, this is not always the case. Hence my comment and disagreement of "in the end." I'd rather not spell it out.


I suppose I should have said that in the end we are thrown back on our own resources. My cousin couldn't help herself. Nobody else could either.


----------



## Clair

Thanks bfree.

That was very powerfully written and moving. Am I right in thinking that what is really lost by the BS and WS is an illusion, and that reconciliation is built on a deeper awareness of human weakness, meaning that no one can be absolutely trusted or depended on to safeguard the happiness of another, not even those closest to us?


----------



## LongWalk

I just spoke with friend of mine whose told him she wanted a D and moved out 2 weeks ago. He is completely disorientated. He knew his marriage was in trouble. So it did not hit him out if the blue. Affairs blindside you. The person who sleeps next to you is a traitor. If marriages were countries, it would be like the prime minister discovering the defense minister was in the pay of the enemy on the eve of war
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Here's the deal folks. It has been nearly 7 weeks since DDay. It is still very raw and it will probably always be raw to some degree.

The only way I could get some power back, call it balance or perspective, whatever, was to do my 180. I absolutely needed to do this to get on the path of self-repair. I told her outright the night she broke down that I could feel the weight of the last 7 weeks. It was killing me.

I am not disrespecting her, abusing her etc (even though I am so regularly tempted to sarcastic jokes reflecting on her A when the smallest trigger arrives - but I keep that in check).

I am not without compassion for her as I demonstrated when she collapsed and again demonstrated the morning after. We cuddled last night at different times during sleep (it's getting cold her).

But as I have maintained I would love a more tangible, more tactile approach from her. But you know, as I have said before, she has never really been like that - she thinks it's a bit "mushy". Can't do much about that particularly in our situation right now.

So my expectations are wrong but I wish she would do something! As someone pointed out her breakdown is not necessarily remorse driven - it could have been alcohol maudlin self pity for all I know, but she was in pain.

These situations are different for all of us who have been through it. There are very obvious similarities but each combination of couples is different - the dynamic will be different and the way couples handle Recon or whatever you want to call this zone is a variation on a theme.

But at the heart of this is what I keep coming back to. I want this woman, I can't have that woman I thought she was, but I want the woman anyway....but I am massively unsure. I keep feeling that....not that she is cunning....I'm certain it is not that, but that she is incapable of giving me (or anyone) what I want. Whether it is the long term affect of alcohol or just how she developed - the tough hide prevents it, genes...I don't know.

It is has even got me questioning what I truly want! Such is the insidiousness of infidelity. But the 180 helps me re-establish who I am.

So I appreciate the debate but I think it has run it's course. 

Look, I was sitting there last night among 3 hundred people - families and wondering if I was the only bloke in the room who was sitting opposite his cheating partner. Statistically no, but the thing is this awful disease can f**k you up day and night. 

I had to sit there for 4 hours acting normal. The only thing that kept me on track was my 180 psychie. We really didn't talk that much and most of the time sh'e having a good old laugh with the woman next to her. 

Typically the other blokes are men of few words - something I hate about my Aussie compatriots. It's a rare thing to find another man who will talk to you on an emotional level to any degree. My problem for wanting to turn a virtual stranger into my counselor - such is the insidiousness of infidelity.

So, I'm not getting what I want but it is to early to expect it. Frankly I don't think it will ever come and maybe I will have to find what I want elsewhere unless someone kicks me in the head and says that wanting such affection is for kids.

PS: Clair is not my wife.


----------



## Horizon

PPS - I am not married but defacto; same thing.


----------



## Clair

It's not for kids, Horizon. You need and deserve physical affection. I hope she surprises you soon, but it's a new skill she can learn. I must say it's a strange deficit in a woman.


----------



## Wazza

arbitrator said:


> *Reasons That The WS's Lie To Their Betrayed Counterpart, Either Directly or by Omission:*
> 
> 
> To cover up the truth from the BS.
> To cover up or occlude the truth from family and friends, primarily out of some innate sense of shame.
> To intentionally inflict mental hurt on BS.
> To attempt to place themselves in a far better light.
> To deceptively try to paint themselves as the victim and the BS as the ogre in the relationship.
> 
> To attempt to save face.
> To continue to perpetuate and nurture their illicit clandestine relationship.
> To self justifyingly lie, when the truth would probably sound far better.
> The sheer excitement and rush that they seemingly derive from lying, much like the excitement they get from having sex with their AP.
> 
> And there's probably plenty of other viable reasons that I have failed to list here! But if you will richly read through their convoluted maze of deception, as well as their faulty psychological rationale, the truth will speak to you far louder and clearer than any confession that they could ever come to utter!


One very important omission....shame and self loathing for what they have done.

And another, fearing the consequences of their actions.


----------



## aug

Horizon said:


> PS: Clair is not my wife.


lol


----------



## aug

Horizon said:


> PPS - I am not married but defacto; same thing.


Well, that'll keep the legal cost down.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> This is just black and white thinking. Whatever Horizon is doing is called the process of deciding what to do. He is in the limbo. He sees tiny bits of hope, that give him hope admist all the negativity of her lies and the affair. He wants to cling on to them desperately but he is not sure if they are enough. His feelings are discounted as being irrational and invalid. he is in his own limbo, uncertain if she can do enough to repair the marriage. When you or Wazza says "R or get out", he hasn't made the decision yet. Actually makes me even more surprised that Wazza would say it. Only because he was in 5 years of limbo before he decided to.


The decision is black and white, but the process is shades of grey.

In case i have conveyed the wrong measage, I am not saying Horizon has to decide now, but ultimately, it will come down to reconciling or getting out. 

If you stay for the sake of the kids, as I did, it is really only delaying the decision. As has been said, the after effects of infidelity never really go away. You will meet someone else who excites you, or you will look at what you have when the kids are grown, and maybe make a decision at that point.


----------



## Horizon

A blast from the past.

At sport this morning our son was giving attitude. He was not involved as he should have been. Bottom line, he was rude. Toward the end of the game I turned to his mother, my partner and said - "I'm not telling you what to do I'm just asking you not to reward him after the game. He hasn't earned it. Don't mollycoddle him".

Down came the shutters. - "I don't mollycoddle him. He's only nine". There it was again, something my partner used to always do. Not engage my parenting and act defensively. For years she undermined my parenting and often in front of the children - something I explicitly requested she not do and a request she ignored 100% of the time.

I walked off muttering to myself that she was a lost cause.

And for further clarification - during the whole 90 minute game I was in a pretty bad way but still successfully doing my 180. Before she arrived I was listening to the VAR and I heard her describe a dream to her young work colleague where she was with some bloke who had a hot body but the face of her ex-husband and they were driving a vehicle to be repaired by another bloke who she was "seeing". All very pertinent.

It occurred to me halfway through the game that my partner had in truth been withholding affection from me. Not ant any point did she approach me nor did I approach her in any intimate sense. I couldn't bring myself to start and to be honest I feel she should initiate. 

But where is she? Why is she not more froward/ Surely she must know this is what I crave? I'm starting to wonder about cruelty - or maybe it is simply not there as I have said so many times. 

You'd think after the breakdown on Friday night that she would be more attentive, that she'd feel more at ease in opening up to me - being more tender, touching caring....no. There is nothing there, she doesn't seem changed - not that I expect massive change but surely we are past the "I'm not sure what to do because of your unpredictable moods'????

The whole thing is f**ked!


----------



## Shaggy

I believe she does know what you want and crave. I also believe she is refusing to give it to you, not to be mean to you, but because she doesn't deep down respect you. 

It comes down to you working instead of being a SAHD.


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## Rollin

The issue is that you aren't ready to walk, she knows this. She saw that even after betraying you, you aren't leaving her, so she thinks she can do whatever she wants and does it.

Until you are ready to walk, don't expect much.

What exactly are you looking to accomplish with the 180?


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> A blast from the past.
> 
> At sport this morning our son was giving attitude. He was not involved as he should have been. Bottom line, he was rude. Toward the end of the game I turned to his mother, my partner and said - "I'm not telling you what to do I'm just asking you not to reward him after the game. He hasn't earned it. Don't mollycoddle him".
> 
> Down came the shutters. - "I don't mollycoddle him. He's only nine". There it was again, something my partner used to always do. Not engage my parenting and act defensively. For years she undermined my parenting and often in front of the children - something I explicitly requested she not do and a request she ignored 100% of the time.
> 
> I walked off muttering to myself that she was a lost cause.
> 
> And for further clarification - during the whole 90 minute game I was in a pretty bad way but still successfully doing my 180. Before she arrived I was listening to the VAR and I heard her describe a dream to her young work colleague where she was with some bloke who had a hot body but the face of her ex-husband and they were driving a vehicle to be repaired by another bloke who she was "seeing". All very pertinent.
> 
> It occurred to me halfway through the game that my partner had in truth been withholding affection from me. Not ant any point did she approach me nor did I approach her in any intimate sense. I couldn't bring myself to start and to be honest I feel she should initiate.
> 
> But where is she? Why is she not more froward/ Surely she must know this is what I crave? I'm starting to wonder about cruelty - or maybe it is simply not there as I have said so many times.
> 
> You'd think after the breakdown on Friday night that she would be more attentive, that she'd feel more at ease in opening up to me - being more tender, touching caring....no. There is nothing there, she doesn't seem changed - not that I expect massive change but surely we are past the "I'm not sure what to do because of your unpredictable moods'????
> 
> The whole thing is f**ked!


Horizon,

Your partner is an alcoholic. Long term alcohol abuse can cause significant personality disorders such as depression, anxiety and loss of libido.

You continue to deal with your relationship problems as if they were resolvable if only your partner would be more remorseful, affectionate, etc. What you are largely overlooking is that, unless and until she stops drinking, she will not change because she is incapable of changing. This also means that, as long as you are living with her, her alcoholism will drag you down. Your children will also suffer lasting harm (see Effects of Parental Alcoholism - The Effects on Children of Parental Alcoholism).

_Have you contacted Al Anon or sought help on how to deal with her alcohol abuse? If not, please, get help._


----------



## Horizon

I had a session with the psych this afternoon. It came down to this. She has been withholding affection for a long time. I need tangible affection. It is not conclusive that this is deliberate - arguments happen etc. I believe this is simply in her character She is not particularly tactile. I need more. 

We are going to talk tonight but I don't know how I am going to approach this with her other than to tell her what I need. I thought I might first ask her what she expects from me. As for the drinking I will raise it again but I know what the reply will be.

I hoped I could finally break through and help her understand that she does have a drinking problem and that there are basic things between two people that should be addressed. But how do you get someone to attend Al Anon, how do you get your partner to be more affectionate? 

I pretty much know where the talk will end up.


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## Horizon

It's not working. We were actually right in the middle of you know what and I happened to affectionately mention that I need more affection. We were doing it and chatting (ever done that? - it can be sort of fun) but it didn't go well.

Almost immediately she started to put her hands over her eyes in exasperation (oh, by the way I dropped the hint early in the evening - me instigating yet again).

"You're not listening to me"

"Wait a second"

"No, you are not listening"

"I'm just saying that....like today at the game, just come up to me and you know, put your arm through mine, kiss me on the neck....I don't know, something. It doesn't have to be much...."

"You're not listening!"

"Yes...."

"No!, I don't know what you are going to do. I can't....I don't know if you are going to reject me...."

"No I'm over that now, I've moved on from that"

"Just last Sunday you threw my clothes everywhere"

"That was a week a go"

(Coitus now completely interrupted - out of bed on our feet)

"You duidn't kiss me the next morning, you turned your cheek....do you know what it's like?"

"I was still angry"

You suddenly stopped the talk we are meant to be having, your emotions are everywhere....I don't know what you are going to do"

"I told you I had to detach to help me. You were all a sobbing mess on Friday night and now...."

"What do you expect? you expect me to be on my hands an knees every second..."

'That's not true, I just think you've got to take that risk to come to me, to be affectionate. Come on, you created this"

"For five years you turned away from me and now you expect me to suddenly have this....."

"Ah come on! don't give me that, we both did that. Here we go. First it's my roller coaster emotions which you created and now it's the years of distance but apparently you suddenly want me too"

"I'm not having this conversation now, I'm not doing this"

"Well come on tell me, what do you want me to do?"

"I'm not doing this now" 

"That's right as soon as it gets tough down come the shutters, You're too tired, you've got work tomorrow"

"You suddenly want to talk, this afternoon when you suddenly said you wanted to talk I....I hate it because I know that....it does my head in"

"Hang on because I bailed for a few nights because I needed to detach suddenly I can't mention that I want to talk. It's meant to be a good thing, this is the unknown there's no rule book sunshine. I'm all over the shop because of you"

"I'm not having this discussion"

"When then, In a few days or weeks when it suits you?"

"Stop telling me what to do. Today when we got home from the game you just switched right off me, just distanced yourself, just like that"

"I told you, It's part of the process. You are going to have to work harder"

"I can't just suddenly have these feelings...."

"Because they are not there. Why do you love me?"

"I told you I am not doing this"

"Go on, why do you love me? Just tell me, why?

"Because I have loved you since I first met you and you never believed it"

"Why do you love me!"

"Because I love you"

"Because you love me? God, you can't even say what it is you love about me"

(son wakes up - concerned)

"Well done, you broke your promise to him"

If only I had shut my mouth I could have have had a much better time. I don't see how we are going to get past this. AAAAAARRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> I had a session with the psych this afternoon. It came down to this. She has been withholding affection for a long time. I need tangible affection. It is not conclusive that this is deliberate - arguments happen etc. I believe this is simply in her character She is not particularly tactile. I need more.
> 
> We are going to talk tonight but I don't know how I am going to approach this with her other than to tell her what I need. I thought I might first ask her what she expects from me. As for the drinking I will raise it again but I know what the reply will be.
> 
> I hoped I could finally break through and help her understand that she does have a drinking problem and that there are basic things between two people that should be addressed. But how do you get someone to attend Al Anon, how do you get your partner to be more affectionate?
> 
> I pretty much know where the talk will end up.


Horizon, Al Anon provides support for the _families_ of alcoholics. Their Australia chapter's website URL is below. You are correct that you can't force your partner to get help. I am suggesting _you_ get help, for your own sake and that of your _children_. Nothing prevents you from doing this, or from doing the other things you need to do to improve yourself and your prospects for a better future (see my earlier posts).

As always, wishing you well.

Al-Anon Family Groups Australia | Remember: You are not alone and there is always hope.


----------



## MovingAhead

Horizon said:


> I had a session with the psych this afternoon. It came down to this. She has been withholding affection for a long time. I need tangible affection. It is not conclusive that this is deliberate - arguments happen etc. I believe this is simply in her character She is not particularly tactile. I need more.
> 
> We are going to talk tonight but I don't know how I am going to approach this with her other than to tell her what I need. I thought I might first ask her what she expects from me. As for the drinking I will raise it again but I know what the reply will be.
> 
> I hoped I could finally break through and help her understand that she does have a drinking problem and that there are basic things between two people that should be addressed. But how do you get someone to attend Al Anon, how do you get your partner to be more affectionate?
> 
> I pretty much know where the talk will end up.


You don't help them... They have to want to help themselves and then they have to help themselves.

You lay out boundaries they aren't allowed to cross until they get help is all and you enforce those boundaries emotionlessly without giving in once... I think the laymen's term is 'tough love',


----------



## aug

In your conversation posted, you come across as desperate. It's a turn-off.

Be clear in your mind what you want.

You appear to want reconciliation. She really had no consequences as far as I can tell. She already feels she got away with the affair. She sense your weakness. That's why you are not going to win any conversation/discussion with her.

Women cry and break down all the time. Instead, watch what she says or does, her actions -- these are better reads of her intention.


----------



## treyvion

aug said:


> In your conversation posted, you come across as desperate. It's a turn-off.
> 
> Be clear in your mind what you want.
> 
> You appear to want reconciliation. She really had no consequences as far as I can tell. She already feels she got away with the affair. She sense your weakness. That's why you are not going to win any conversation/discussion with her.
> 
> Women cry and break down all the time. Instead, watch what she says or does, her actions -- these are better reads of her intention.



She's going to hold her strength built up off it. You don't release that in one discussion! Most never do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rollin

I told you not to expect much. She knows you would never walk, so she does whatever she wants


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## warlock07

You made a novice mistake of opening up immediately and getting desperate for R after she cried. It was a good sign but not the only sign you needed. WS crying happens a lot of times during false R's. There is poster called Carlton on here. He deleted his old thread but there were 3 or 4 times in his thread that he was really convinced that his wife made a turnaround after a crying session and breakdown. Guess what ? The wife never really changed. She went back to her selfish behavior after a few days. She just some moments of overwhelming guilt. His most recent thread is there in the Private members section. He is still living with her and is almost close to getting divorced while she is dating several people, trying to get back with her original OM and neglecting the kids.


----------



## Rollin

Its pretty simple, she doesn't respect you because she thinks you don't respect yourself. Or else why would you still be in the marriage?


----------



## bfree

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon, Al Anon provides support for the _families_ of alcoholics. Their Australia chapter's website URL is below. You are correct that you can't force your partner to get help. I am suggesting _you_ get help, for your own sake and that of your _children_. Nothing prevents you from doing this, or from doing the other things you need to do to improve yourself and your prospects for a better future (see my earlier posts).
> 
> As always, wishing you well.
> 
> Al-Anon Family Groups Australia | Remember: You are not alone and there is always hope.


If your wife is an alcoholic you need to go to an Al-Anon meeting. You will learn a lot. One thing you will learn about is something called stinkin thinkin. Even when they aren't drinking an alcoholic's thought process is not "normal." Trying to carry on a thoughtful logical conversation is next to impossible. Your wife's drinking is the most important issue in your marriage. Everything else hinges on that. Her drinking is the nexus of all your problems.


----------



## Chaparral

Did I miss something? You started a conversation during sex? Did you you read/understand MMSLP? How repulsive that sounds to me.


----------



## Horizon

Yes, how desperate I sound. Yes it was stupid to converse - it's how f**ked up I am without even knowing it because I wanted the sex more than the talk I requested, which I knew would kill the chance of sex (not that I had considered it that stage).

A few things -

Isn't she demonstrating that she wants to protect herself more than she wants to Recon by arguing it's impossible to approach me?

Get this, at one point when it became heated (not a full blown argument) she said to me -

"I got over it months ago, you're hanging onto it". 

When I approached her to repeat those words she went into this zone of sort of denying what she has just said. I insisted she repeat what she said. She wouldn't. It is part of the strange mental state of this woman or perhaps she sensed that I was about explode.

Can you imagine how disgusted and angry I was at that remark? I was bloody well about to let fly at that alright. But I didn't. It said so much, it hurt me deeply to hear that. She does not have my/our best interests at heart at all and she can cut me down anytime with comments like that. Further, she can do her 180 anytime - I'm feeling manipulated.

Even during sex before I opened my big mouth she rejected my suggestions about trying some things I like - "I'm not there yet, I really like doing this". I guess she was right - I screwed the hole thing up.

This is yet more of the insidious nature of infidelity - what she doesn't get. It is the emasculation, the reduction of the other person to this shadow of a man. Now I'm suddenly not a man doing a 180 but someone who is randomly ignoring her. Once again turning it back on me. I can't win. No one in this situation wins - how the f**k did some of you people reconcile???

She was even disinterested when I told her that the psych wanted to know if she would like to come and see him one on one. She's got the upper hand right through - no big deal. Dole out sex occasionally is working reconciling. 

She said it herself last night - I can't give you what you want. She can't be more affectionate because it's not there right now and she's scared I might reject it - BS!!!!!! It's not there.

I don't think she is cunning - she needs the status quo intact as it was and we'll see what happens. Yeah, she's done the math even though she denies it but what the hell she'll adapt - I'm the one with the most to lose.


----------



## Robsia

One thing I find curious. Frequently, men who are cheated on state they feel 'emasculated', What does this mean? Is there a female equivalent for those of us ladies who are cheated on?

Is there such a thing as effeminated?


----------



## Wazza

Horizon, a few things.

First if all talk and sex...we do that sometimes. It's nice. If Chapparal doesn't like it, fine. I suggest you don't go to bed with him 

Second, how did some if us reconcile....well it takes time, and we just had a major discussion about the mindset it takes in your thread. But it isn't easy. And it will never be as it was before.

The hurtful things your wife said. They were the truth. Okay, so I get the reaction when she says "I get over this months ago..." But somehow you have to confront that she may actually feel this way and you have to talk about it. I vividly remember a conversation where Mrs Wazza and I both agreed our marriage had been a mistake. Because we were actually talking about our feelings. The truth is we were both naive when we married, and we marries for the wrong reasons. We have some issue we need to work on but we actually are very compatible in many ways. Reconciling is about dealing with the bad and celebrating the good.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> One thing I find curious. Frequently, men who are cheated on state they feel 'emasculated', What does this mean? Is there a female equivalent for those of us ladies who are cheated on?
> 
> Is there such a thing as effeminated?


I believe women refer to it as emotional abuse.


----------



## Horizon

OK, what is MMSLP - I'm lost.

Right, I have to work even harder on us by integrating the obvious - I can't change the past and I have to find the good? Have a talk like yours - knowing full well whatever we had is long gone and try and re-build from there.

Maybe TAM has been both a help and a hindrance. I'm confused and have got all these feelings of betrayal swirling around. I have to move beyond the "she wins" mindset.

Then there is the drinking which is so central.....

I might have to tune out of TAM for a while - I have never felt weaker or more confused. I am completely powerless right now as she gets into her power gear for work and my son doesn't want to go to school because he face planted off a trampoline yesterday afternoon.....parenting, relationships, keeping up appearances - no wonder some people just throw in the towel.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> OK, what is MMSLP - I'm lost.
> 
> Right, I have to work even harder on us by integrating the obvious - I can't change the past and I have to find the good? Have a talk like yours - knowing full well whatever we had is long gone and try and re-build from there.
> 
> Maybe TAM has been both a help and a hindrance. I'm confused and have got all these feelings of betrayal swirling around. I have to move beyond the "she wins" mindset.
> 
> Then there is the drinking which is so central.....
> 
> I might have to tune out of TAM for a while - I have never felt weaker or more confused. I am completely powerless right now as she gets into her power gear for work and my son doesn't want to go to school because he face planted off a trampoline yesterday afternoon.....parenting, relationships, keeping up appearances - no wonder some people just throw in the towel.


MMSLP is "Married Man Sex Life Primer". I haven't read it bit from TAM I understand it is about achieving a healthy balance of alpha and beta traits.

Pull it back to basics. Work on you. Set yourself up to stand on your own two feet. It will change your mindset about a lot of stuff. You will make different decisions from what you would now.

Talk honestly. It will hurt, but so does guessing and wondering. But you can't expect her to talk honestly when you rip her head off continually.

TAM.....well......look if I followed the advice on TAM I would have divorced. There is an orthodoxy around here. It is a very useful source of information. But it upsets me sometimes.

The drinking. Without going over all your threads again....how much does she actually drink? How big a problem is the drinking? Not saying don't worry about it, but having had someone close to me on the street for a year with alcoholism and struggling with rehab, I know how bad it can get, and also that most people don't get that bad. I have not formed the impression that the drinking is the central problem in your marriage. I have formed the impression that her infidelity is. Am I wrong?


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> MMSLP is "Married Man Sex Life Primer". I haven't read it bit from TAM I understand it is about achieving a healthy balance of alpha and beta traits.
> 
> Pull it back to basics. Work on you. Set yourself up to stand on your own two feet. It will change your mindset about a lot of stuff. You will make different decisions from what you would now.
> 
> Talk honestly. It will hurt, but so does guessing and wondering. But you can't expect her to talk honestly when you rip her head off continually.
> 
> TAM.....well......look if I followed the advice on TAM I would have divorced. There is an orthodoxy around here. It is a very useful source of information. But it upsets me sometimes.
> 
> The drinking. Without going over all your threads again....how much does she actually drink? How big a problem is the drinking? Not saying don't worry about it, but having had someone close to me on the street for a year with alcoholism and struggling with rehab, I know how bad it can get, and also that most people don't get that bad. I have not formed the impression that the drinking is the central problem in your marriage. I have formed the impression that her infidelity is. Am I wrong?


You are right - it's close but you are right. The thing that hurts the most is the cheating. last night descended into a bad place without the awful insults but no less frustrating.

I have been trying to get back to where we were. I did not properly realise this until today. The penny dropped the changed landscape became more clear. I cannot, we cannot start from a point that no longer exists.

People will say wake up, you knew that before, surely. But you don't know a damn thing until it really hits you. We have to build from the ground up - we both want to. But there is a lot of damage there.

I do wonder if I will ever be able to climb out of this wreck.


----------



## warlock07

Robsia said:


> One thing I find curious. Frequently, men who are cheated on state they feel 'emasculated', What does this mean? Is there a female equivalent for those of us ladies who are cheated on?
> 
> Is there such a thing as effeminated?


I think mastectomy would be a closest physical equivalent I can think of...Hard to compare because of the different social constructs men and women have


----------



## WyshIknew

Is OMW still gonna get a surprise today?


----------



## Horizon

WyshIknew said:


> Is OMW still gonna get a surprise today?


Done and dusted but....did she get it, did she wise to the packaging, is she on leave??? - I have no idea but she would have received it days ago.

The snake uses the "open marriage" thing as a hook. Sometimes I wonder if she in fact colludes with him. Some people have bizarre private lives. Maybe they are getting off on this. 

Anyway - no response doesn't mean I'll give up. I was expecting another lettuce leaf threat from the snake but there is zero feedback. Any tips on legal revenge?


----------



## WyshIknew

Cheaterville?

You need to really speak to OMW in person, there have been numerous cases where the AP has intercepted parcels, letters, emails etc.

Legal revenge? Contact a lawyer.

Although I am a proponent of the BS getting some payback against the AP, especially when the AP was fully aware of the WS marital status I also think there is a possibility of obsessing on revenge which is not healthy.

Unless you can report him to his and your WW workplace there is probably nothing you can do. Other than rattle his cage and make him look elsewhere for his jollies next time as it would be too much hassle to deal with you again.

Sort of joking but ask him if he could point you in the right direction for their companies policy on affairs within the workplace?


----------



## treyvion

WyshIknew said:


> Cheaterville?
> 
> You need to really speak to OMW in person, there have been numerous cases where the AP has intercepted parcels, letters, emails etc.
> 
> Legal revenge? Contact a lawyer.
> 
> Although I am a proponent of the BS getting some payback against the AP, especially when the AP was fully aware of the WS marital status I also think there is a possibility of obsessing on revenge which is not healthy.
> 
> Unless you can report him to his and your WW workplace there is probably nothing you can do. Other than rattle his cage and make him look elsewhere for his jollies next time as it would be too much hassle to deal with you again.
> 
> Sort of joking but ask him if he could point you in the right direction for their companies policy on affairs within the workplace?


Running the OM/OW off is always an option. But that doesn't stop a cheating spouse.

There are some advantages to it, in that you will reclaim psychology stolen from you by the OM/OW. It will also will shock the WS reality. 

They could have other affairs going on too. However the WS will not be able to look at you like you would do nothing about it. Because you did...


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> OK, what is MMSLP - I'm lost.
> 
> Right, I have to work even harder on us by integrating the obvious - I can't change the past and I have to find the good? Have a talk like yours - knowing full well whatever we had is long gone and try and re-build from there.
> 
> *Maybe TAM has been both a help and a hindrance. I'm confused and have got all these feelings of betrayal swirling around.* I have to move beyond the "she wins" mindset.
> 
> Then there is the drinking which is so central.....
> 
> *I might have to tune out of TAM for a while - I have never felt weaker or more confused.* I am completely powerless right now as she gets into her power gear for work and my son doesn't want to go to school because he face planted off a trampoline yesterday afternoon.....parenting, relationships, keeping up appearances - no wonder some people just throw in the towel.


Horizon,

Your problem isn't that your getting bad or inconsistent advice from TAM. Your problem is that you're not taking the advice and, instead, keep going around and around with your partner, trying to _talk_ her into becoming the "wife" you want her to be. What you've heard consistently here is that this never works.

In addition, you've heard consistently that the key to your situation is to change yourself. Get healthy, get a full time job, get your own interests and activities, get help for yourself and your children to deal with your partner's alcohol addiction. But, as far as I can tell from your posts, you're not doing any of these things.

The basic message that you have received consistently from TAM is that you cannot change your partner but you can change yourself. If you become more independent financially and emotionally and regain your self-respect, you will eventually end up in a better place. It may be with your partner (if she finally decides to get help for her problems) or it may be with someone else, but it will be better.

Your problems developed over many years and will take years to fix. But that's no excuse not to start. You claim to love your kids and to be a great dad but you are utterly failing them. If for no other reason, start to transform yourself into a positive role model that they can be proud of.

Sadly, I think you are a lost cause -- too codependent on your partner to seek help and too afraid of the future to begin to improve yourself.

Please, please, please, prove me wrong.


----------



## bfree

Totally agree with the above. Horizon, have you gone to an Al-Anon meeting yet?


----------



## LongWalk

Horizon, you are smart guy, you are churning yor wheels and the smell of burning rubber is going to choke your wife. Keep on with a mild 180. When you engage keep it good humored, not needy. Get in shape. Cut out booze. If you expose on Cheaterville, write something biting and as funny as possible. Read entries until you find one that makes you snort coffee out you nose. Model yours on that

Keep your life simple. People always talk about flying 50,000 feet above. Settle for a ultralight aircraft with lawnmower engine if it makes you more comfortable.

You cannot let your wife's every word spin you round. Her actions are a fact. Her words are not so important at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

I am sorry for you. 

My impression after reading your thread is that you're too nice. You're just too nice. If you were with someone who actually would respect that in the long run, you'd be in heaven. 

You will not, cannot use logic or reason to talk her into anything. I learned this first hand. 

They will tell any number of lies, so long as they think it will spare them pain in the future. Even that they're sorry, they'll never do it again etc. 

They will tell you lies, and as a BS you'll probably believe a lot of them. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can suddenly tell when this person is being genuine or not. 

Pretend you're deaf, forget the words and look at their actions. Are they the actions of a sorry person? Are they remorseful? 

Just always give yourself an out. Let her know this might be a deal breaker. That one day you may wake up and decide you can't get over it. That way you won't feel trapped. 

As for the AP, forget them and end the power they have in your life. Let your life belong to you, not anyone else.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Horizon, how scared of being alone are you?


----------



## Horizon

Scared from the POV that I've always got by but I'm not as strong right now. 17 years is a long time - there are deep ties not to mention kids. 

The other day someone on TAM said to me - "You are alone!"

So yes, I am alone under this roof with a partner and 2 kids. the thing is it is hard to be a more alpha kind of bloke when you have never been that. It is hard when the blinkers come off as they have since DDay and you realise how dependent you have become.

When you know that you absolutely have to have that partners big income to keep the joint going and the best you can get right now is casual work without much benefit then it is hard. I'm doing stuff for myself - I have joined the local gym, I'm walking, still doing my 180 which is pretty modest compared to how it is described but I do feel trapped. 

Effectively she has got me cornered - she knows it, I know it. I'm trying to hold onto some dignity here. The kids have to come first right now.

If anyone out there can tell me how to start an effective business from home with little start up capitol I'm listening.


----------



## LongWalk

Do not pour your capital and emotions into a home business. You do not need a source of anxiety. Even manual labor may be good for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

What education and skills do you have?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

Well guess who didn't have the STD test after all - unbelievable!


----------



## WyshIknew

Horizon said:


> Scared from the POV that I've always got by but I'm not as strong right now. 17 years is a long time - there are deep ties not to mention kids.
> 
> The other day someone on TAM said to me - "You are alone!"
> 
> So yes, I am alone under this roof with a partner and 2 kids. the thing is it is hard to be a more alpha kind of bloke when you have never been that. It is hard when the blinkers come off as they have since DDay and you realise how dependent you have become.
> 
> When you know that you absolutely have to have that partners big income to keep the joint going and the best you can get right now is casual work without much benefit then it is hard. I'm doing stuff for myself - I have joined the local gym, I'm walking, still doing my 180 which is pretty modest compared to how it is described but I do feel trapped.
> 
> Effectively she has got me cornered - she knows it, I know it. I'm trying to hold onto some dignity here. The kids have to come first right now.
> 
> If anyone out there can tell me how to start an effective business from home with little start up capitol I'm listening.


How large is your house?

Do you enjoy looking after the kids?

Could you see yourself looking after more?

Could you get a license and operate a child minding business from home? Not sure what the returns would be but they are fairly lucrative where I live. Not top dollar, but it would allow you to remain at home to look after the kids and earn money.

Having said that I think you would do better to work outside of the home, but if you are determined to stay home to look after the kids it may be an option.


----------



## Horizon

LongWalk said:


> What education and skills do you have?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


George Costanza reply comes to mind.....Sales management, Performing Arts Degree, Voice coaching, Acting coaching, all theatre & film performance skills.


----------



## LongWalk

Reading books for recordings. Could do that at home. Can you get a job as drama teacher in a school? Sales is an emotional drain. Maybe special needs education, working with autistic or downs, parents want someone who cares. You can chg lives. Get yourself in to physical shape. Use your acting skills to remake your character.

The testosterone is in you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

Horizon said:


> Scared from the POV that I've always got by but I'm not as strong right now. 17 years is a long time - there are deep ties not to mention kids.
> 
> The other day someone on TAM said to me - "You are alone!"
> 
> So yes, I am alone under this roof with a partner and 2 kids. the thing is it is hard to be a more alpha kind of bloke when you have never been that. It is hard when the blinkers come off as they have since DDay and you realise how dependent you have become.
> 
> When you know that you absolutely have to have that partners big income to keep the joint going and the best you can get right now is casual work without much benefit then it is hard. I'm doing stuff for myself - I have joined the local gym, I'm walking, still doing my 180 which is pretty modest compared to how it is described but I do feel trapped.
> 
> Effectively she has got me cornered - she knows it, I know it. I'm trying to hold onto some dignity here. The kids have to come first right now.
> 
> If anyone out there can tell me how to start an effective business from home with little start up capitol I'm listening.


I'm unsure what the laws are there, but you may be eligible for part of her income. 

Look, the truth is if you're not willing to lose her, you won't get her. 

You come from a place of weakness. I bet by the time all is said and done you'll be harder than you can possibly imagine, and well prepared for life with or without her. 


It's my opinion you're just like I was. A co-dependant nice guy. You're the guy she wants to have at home, cooking meals or cleaning. But not the guy she wants in her bed. You're good for raising kids and stability. But stability is BORING.

The way you're going to move from where you are is hard work. A lot of it. You might need to work full time and go to school. You might need to beg a friend for a place to stay or maybe even family. 

There are no easy ways to make money. You need school, a grant, a loan, or a friend or relative.


----------



## bryanp

OMG - After all of this screwing around she still has not bothered to have an STD test as demanded by you. I guess that tells you how little important your feelings and health are to her. She totally disrespects you now in the worst possible way. What a message that sends you. I am so sorry for you.


----------



## LongWalk

awake1 said:


> *There are no easy ways to make money*. You need school, a grant, a loan, or a friend or relative.


Even relatively successful actors go through periods of hardship.


----------



## bfree

Horizon, I understand the need to consider finances when children are involved but you seriously need to remove the money issue from your thought process. If your wife decided to become a highly paid escort would you be okay with that? At what point does money override self respect? His much is your soul worth?


----------



## Horizon

bryanp said:


> OMG - After all of this screwing around she still has not bothered to have an STD test as demanded by you. I guess that tells you how little important your feelings and health are to her. She totally disrespects you now in the worst possible way. What a message that sends you. I am so sorry for you.


When I first mentioned it to her there was a reluctance on her part. She even said something like - "I don't have anything, I know what the result will be". But the fact is that she did not get it done. A few weeks back I asked her for a copy of the results. It was not forthcoming. I subsequently did some digging and there has been no test. I haven't told her yet. Trying not to have angst in the home - kids.


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> Horizon, I understand the need to consider finances when children are involved but you seriously need to remove the money issue from your thought process. If your wife decided to become a highly paid escort would you be okay with that? At what point does money override self respect? His much is your soul worth?


Hey, I saw you in "The Grey" and your demise was noted. I tipping the wolf came out on top and I have always wondered when you made those bottle claws why didn't you skoll down the contents for a heart starter? The wolf looked like he might have understood that. Anyhow I preferred your eye to eye destiny scene to that Brad Pitt heroic tosh in "Legends of the Fall".

OK - if I am to prepare for what could well be the inevitable outcome (the way I feel - random minute moments of affection etc.) I have to have a regular income. Are you saying that If I had any eggs I'd not worry about that and just take action and move on?


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> When I first mentioned it to her there was a reluctance on her part. She even said something like - "I don't have anything, I know what the result will be". But the fact is that she did not get it done. A few weeks back I asked her for a copy of the results. It was not forthcoming. I subsequently did some digging and there has been no test. I haven't told her yet. Trying not to have angst in the home - kids.


Why she didn't fid the test for herself.. I won't dare to ask.
But it's no wonder she didn't consider you into the equation given she still refuses to have sex with you as she't not "there" still.
Correct me if something changed since the last time I read it.


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> Hey, I saw you in "The Grey" and your demise was noted. I tipping the wolf came out on top and I have always wondered when you made those bottle claws why didn't you skoll down the contents for a heart starter? The wolf looked like he might have understood that. Anyhow I preferred your eye to eye destiny scene to that Brad Pitt heroic tosh in "Legends of the Fall".
> 
> OK - if I am to prepare for what could well be the inevitable outcome (the way I feel - random minute moments of affection etc.) I have to have a regular income. Are you saying that If I had any eggs I'd not worry about that and just take action and move on?


No, what I'm saying is regardless of what you and your wife make it has little bearing on your marriage or the lack of respect she has for you. Yes, you do need to get a job. Not because she wants you to and not because of the money. Because you should be working regardless of what she does or doesn't do. But her lack of respect for you is not about money. So why is it even being considered? She doesn't respect you because you don't respect yourself. Fix that and you might have a chance to either fix your marriage or find a woman more worthy of you. She doesn't have you cornered. You're backed into a corner because you won't stand your ground and demand respect.


----------



## Horizon

OK, how do I demand respect? I find out most recently that she lied about the STD (will confront tonight) and I know the "i didn't enjoy" BS about the PA is an outright lie. What? Go in hard?

When I put irrefutable evidence to her or ask her to be honest she's like a slippery eel. Prevarication, gaslighting, dead ends.....

I'm looking at the true picture of me and my life here and I would love to get some distance but the spare room is the only option unless I bite the bullet and say f**k money and just find a room, something close by. But I'm then the one copping it in the neck.

Why is she not concerned about contraception???? She isn't using any with me and she once apparently didn't use any with the snake according to the snake ("He wanted to cum inside me but I said no" - sounds like an effing teenager!). 

This is madness. So I reckon she was or is using something like an IUD or Implanon - but the answer today in a brief conversation is no. So if she dropped the pill (2 years ago - without telling me mind you) why isn't she concerned about falling preggars?

What a mess - give me a way out of this!!!!


----------



## The Middleman

Horizon said:


> What a mess - give me a way out of this!!!!


What you need to do is see a lawyer tomorrow, have him/her draw up divorce papers and have "that person you call your wife" served. If that doesn't get her attention then follow through with the divorce. If you don't follow through, reside to spending the rest of your life as a doormat. Sorry Horizon, but that's the truth as I see it. You can't let her get away with this.


----------



## Rollin

You have no goals, you are just winging it without a plan. 

Why are you doing the 180? What are you looking to accomplish by doing it?

And you don't demand respect, you earn it. How do you earn it? You act. Your lack of action is the reason she still doesn't respect you, because lets be honest, she CHEATS on you and your essentially fine with it, you haven't divorced, you haven't even separated, you still let her call the shots


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> When I put irrefutable evidence to her or ask her to be honest she's like a slippery eel. Prevarication, gaslighting, dead ends.....


That's because you allow it. For her to think this works, you have to let it slide and give her no repercussions. 

How do most children learn something is hot? They get burned. It isn't always a third degree burn, but it almost always painful.

Your wife hasn't experienced any true emotional pain or consequences for her actions. She knows if she storms off, lies, or whatever if she pleases you every thing will be fine. She needs something, like a burn, that lingers and she'll never forget.

No, I am not talking violence.


----------



## Horizon

Oh, I received this today - so I guess all is OK. Now I can really go to town - yippee!!!....awww shoot, so can she. DAMN!

This is why I am not on any contraception – chances are virtually nil and I also know my cycle really well & there are only a couple of days in the middle of my cycle where it could even be possible.


“Once you pass 40, time is pitiless. You have about a five-per-cent chance of getting pregnant in any single menstrual cycle, according to a leading fertility specialist and author of four bestselling fertility books, including How to Get Pregnant. At 40 your chance of conceiving within a year is about 40 to 50 per cent, compared to a woman in her mid-30s, who has a 75-per-cent chance. By age 43, a woman's chance of pregnancy plummets to one or two per cent

After 45, experts say, it's almost impossible to get pregnant using your own eggs”


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

So ... she researched all this. When?

Why are you still with this woman? Go rent an apartment or a room ... or a couch to sleep on ... just get out.


----------



## Robsia

And presumably after age 40 you can't get STDs either 

The woman's crazy. Just because the possibility is less, which is true, doesn't mean it won't happen.

I have a five year old and one of the other mums is 48! Hers was a surprise baby 5 years ago. It happens.


----------



## BobSimmons

I predict this will reach 10,000 pages..


----------



## Horizon

BobSimmons said:


> I predict this will reach 10,000 pages..


I should just shut the f**k up an act - I get it. As long as you are in for the long haul Bob. You have helped me even though you and others are frustrated by my spinning wheels.


----------



## Horizon

Massive argument based around the STD test that never was. A lot of yelling and....shoot I almost saw red.

Are you listening? Here is the reason why she did not have the STD test....

"Because you demanded it, because you are like this, you are out of control demanding, yelling, always telling me what to do"

I demanded? Who can tell what tone of voice I used weeks ago under such duress. I asked her (yelling the whole time) "Are you telling me if I had meekly asked you to have an STD then you would have done it?" No answer, more diversion about my emotional state, anger....BS,BS,BS ad infinitum.

And didn't she go off when I pointed out that cycles and age are no guarantee of contraception. "Stop telling me what to do, or what is what...."

It all came down to the same thing - you turned away from me, you this you that....justify, justify, justify. 

Me - Why didn't you come to me, why didn't you talk or walk? Because you didn't want to know me, you treated me like sh!t, you BS,BS,BS....

Me - you lie and lie and lie, I can't believe a word you say. You continue to disrespect me. You divert and deny and deny and you lie and you lie and you lie.

She doesn't like me at all - "I hate you right now!" 

"It's not just right now darling".


----------



## Northern Monkey

Hey Horizon, I've not been following long as I don't do CWI in general as I know nothing about it. I do know about other things that make me empathise with your position though.

Forget practicalities. Why are you emotionally still there? Is it love or is the truth more to do with fear, loss and somehow feeling you deserve this? 

What would it take for you to respect yourself enough to realise you deserve and are capable of having so much more than this?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> Massive argument based around the STD test that never was. A lot of yelling and....shoot I almost saw red.
> 
> Are you listening? Here is the reason why she did not have the STD test....
> 
> "Because you demanded it, because you are like this, you are out of control demanding, yelling, always telling me what to do"
> 
> I demanded? Who can tell what tone of voice I used weeks ago under such duress. I asked her (yelling the whole time) "Are you telling me if I had meekly asked you to have an STD then you would have done it?" No answer, more diversion about my emotional state, anger....BS,BS,BS ad infinitum.
> 
> And didn't she go off when I pointed out that cycles and age are no guarantee of contraception. "Stop telling me what to do, or what is what...."
> 
> It all came down to the same thing - you turned away from me, you this you that....justify, justify, justify.
> 
> Me - Why didn't you come to me, why didn't you talk or walk? Because you didn't want to know me, you treated me like sh!t, you BS,BS,BS....
> 
> Me - you lie and lie and lie, I can't believe a word you say. You continue to disrespect me. You divert and deny and deny and you lie and you lie and you lie.
> 
> She doesn't like me at all - "I hate you right now!"
> 
> "It's not just right now darling".


You need to stop trying to win the argument. This is unhealthy for both of you. If counseling, talking, pleading, crying and yelling don't work it is time for a shock treatment.

Get the D papers drawn up and have her served. She hates you and thinks you are controlling because SHE had an affair. That's a huge disconnect.


----------



## azteca1986

Horizon said:


> I should just shut the f**k up an act


Yes, I agree with you Horizon, you should.


----------



## cpacan

If I may just suggest a minor adjustment to your way of handling this.

You don't have to tell her what to do, be controlling etc. Why don't you just tell her that she decides for herself whether she gets tested or not, but that if she doesn't, you're not staying with her. Her choice, her consequences.


----------



## VFW

Horizon, to a certain extent she is right about the yelling, it really does not help you in the long run. Few people react well to what they think is an unreasonable tirade. I would suggest this as an alternative....don't yell...just bluntly tell her what your requirements for reconciliation and stop right there. From that point forward employ the 180 tactic. Then the onus is on her to decide to do it or not. This way you are not controlling or demanding, you are merely stating your position and she can either join you in the relationship or not. In the meantime, don't wait on her, start immediately working on you. Exercise is a good way to help relieve stress and makes a healthier you. Spend quality time with friends and family. Enjoy a hobby you have ignored or start a new one, maybe take a continuing education class in something that interests you, volunteer is good to take the emphasis off of you and helping others. Don't waste your time make it count.


----------



## LongWalk

VFW is saying the same things that I and others have. Exercise HARD. Get a job. Stop living for her approval
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

To true - and just for good measure she snapped because I dared mention the occasional little cough she has as something that might be worth investigating. It's not a throat clearing cough, just a little cough - maybe habit, she was a big smoker. Anyway they have been running a lung cancer campaign on TV & Radio here for a month or so. Surely anything a concerned partner would mention even if he is dead wrong. But no, apparently an example of me telling her what to do. If I had only said it nicely. She hates me.


----------



## Rags

Horizon said:


> ... But no, apparently an example of me telling her what to do. If I had only said it nicely. She hates me.


I don't buy it (her statement that it's you ordering her around that she doesn't like.) I think the issues are deeper than that.

It looks like she really wants out, but wants you to instigate it.


----------



## warlock07

Stop the arguments. The arguments, disrespect, putting you back into your place, the condescension are all her territory. This way she gets to blame everything on you. And this why 180 is recommended for BS that have remorseless WS. You are back to the beginning because you opened up once she cried and teared up.


----------



## Wazza

So, Horizon, when do you reckon these discussions are going to achieve anything? Or are they making things worse?


----------



## Horizon

Later she even tried to imply that she didn't agree to have the STD. But I started on this subject by asking her to remind me which doctor she used for the blood test referall doc. Straight away, rather than just admit she didn't have it done, she said umm....I can't remember his name....another perfect lie. She knew she was maintaining the lie she had told me weeks ago. Back then a week after the supposed test she had a shot at me for asking for the proof. Tonight it's the same thing - I'm too demanding and one of my favorites...."You will not listen".

You are right as usual warlock07. Keeping the 180 going is tough. Is it a mistake to move into the spare room - go in a lot harder? without being a total pr**k about it.

I suppose you'll say that the 180 is the only real way to know how - serious she is. But remorseless is correct. I did fall for the tears to a degree. But as I said before she turned my 180 back on me by saying I ignored her. Cunning as all get out she is. I should have just said it was not my intention - diffused it. Not always the best on my feet at the moment despite my performing background. Probably the screwy emotional landscape has me at a disadvantage.

I'd have to say worse Wazza. The controlled 10 mminute things kind of blew up in my face and the STD thing was something I just had to get to the bottom of. Anything I say that reveals a lie makes her roll her eyes and say "here we go". 

This is part of her argument (another diversion) that our early talks which also often descended into argument are random. I'm still bugging her big time by saying, as I did this morning that I'd like to talk tonight. She really doesn't like it.

Another thing - tonight she repeated that line. "It was a year ago, I got over it. Get over it!" I came back with - "how do you explain the sexting this year?" Her reply - "I have already discussed this, I am not talking about this...."

She is without remorse. I am reduced to this angry raging man and then that becomes the subject. Well f**k her, I am not moving out of my own home (yeah she repeated "it's my home" line tonight - after I told her about 10 times to leave).


----------



## BK23

What are you doing, man? This woman does not care about you. She is an addict and a user. You need to cut this co-dependent crap and move on with your life. I know it's hard, but it's what you need to do to have a shot at any kind of happy or fulfilling life.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

My guess is she thinks and acts like that you'll never leave her over this.

So far, she's right.

You obviously can't control what she does.

You can control however what you do though...


----------



## cpacan

Horizon; are you going to put up with this???? How long R U going to take this cr$p?


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> Later she even tried to imply that she didn't agree to have the STD. But I started on this subject by asking her to remind me which doctor she used for the blood test referall doc. Straight away, rather than just admit she didn't have it done, she said umm....I can't remember his name....another perfect lie. She knew she was maintaining the lie she had told me weeks ago. Back then a week after the supposed test she had a shot at me for asking for the proof. Tonight it's the same thing - I'm too demanding and one of my favorites...."You will not listen".
> 
> You are right as usual warlock07. Keeping the 180 going is tough. Is it a mistake to move into the spare room - go in a lot harder? without being a total pr**k about it.
> 
> I suppose you'll say that the 180 is the only real way to know how - serious she is. But remorseless is correct. I did fall for the tears to a degree. But as I said before she turned my 180 back on me by saying I ignored her. Cunning as all get out she is. I should have just said it was not my intention - diffused it. Not always the best on my feet at the moment despite my performing background. Probably the screwy emotional landscape has me at a disadvantage.
> 
> I'd have to say worse Wazza. The controlled 10 mminute things kind of blew up in my face and the STD thing was something I just had to get to the bottom of. Anything I say that reveals a lie makes her roll her eyes and say "here we go".
> 
> This is part of her argument (another diversion) that our early talks which also often descended into argument are random. I'm still bugging her big time by saying, as I did this morning that I'd like to talk tonight. She really doesn't like it.
> 
> Another thing - tonight she repeated that line. "It was a year ago, I got over it. Get over it!" I came back with - "how do you explain the sexting this year?" Her reply - "I have already discussed this, I am not talking about this...."
> 
> She is without remorse. I am reduced to this angry raging man and then that becomes the subject. Well f**k her, I am not moving out of my own home (yeah she repeated "it's my home" line tonight - after I told her about 10 times to leave).


Your physical location is not your biggest problem. The fact that your head is wrapped up with her is your issue. When I spoke about demanding respect I wasn't referring to an actual verbal demand. What you need to do is work on yourself. Do things for you and only you. And when you are around her don't argue. What is the point? You aren't going to win? And neither is she? Its just a perpetual merry go round of pain. And as long as you are arguing you are still focusing on her. When you chase her she is going to run away. If you corner her she is going to push back. Walk away. Walk away mentally. Smile like you don't have a care in the world. Start enjoying your life. Start traveling down your own path. It doesn't matter if its with her or without her. Its YOUR path. If someday she decides to join you on YOUR path and you allow her to then maybe things might change. But right now you two are like punch drunk fighters both trying to land that one good shot. The problem is you're both so beat down and beat up neither of you can lift your arms.

You've received a lot of suggestions about what you can do for yourself. You've received recommendations about books you can read that would help you to be a better you. Start doing this and you might be surprised at how much better things get.


----------



## Enginerd

I read your whole thread. I usually don't comment in this forum because I find reconcilliation a ridiculous idea after someone cheats. I think you write very descriptively and it actually appears you enjoy it. It reads like a story complete with nifty dialog and it's very entertaining. Was that intentional?

Anyway, I think you need a serious wake up call if you're truely interested in improving your life and your ability to have a rewarding relationship with a women. You childhood story was very tragic, but you can't let that define you or give you an excuse to not take action. If you do you cannot move forward.

Your wife clearly does not love you, she does not respect you and she thinks she can brain wash you into believing her lies. At this point I think she's right. Your nothing but a codependant piece of clay to her and you seem OK with that. IMHO your only choice is to immediately find a full time job, work on yourself (physically and mentally) and get prepared to be independant. In your current state you have no future with her and your child is tragically observing how a broken man clings to a emotionally unavailable person. He will repeat this pattern if you don't handle this better. I'm sorry, but this is how it reads to me.


----------



## LongWalk

Stay in your home to protect your right to it. Stop caring about her in any way. Make something of your life. Your arguments have no meaning.


----------



## Horizon

Sadly, it is all true. I have been given enough advice - more than enough. I want you all to remember that each of us are made up of very different experiences and genetic dispositions. Our ability to act to make decisions is a result of this.

I cannot deny or avoid the fact that her actions speak so much more than her words. It is clear that she has a huge reservoir of resentment built up over years. Thus the entitlement and thus the lying and justification. 

She simply cannot have me occupy anything remotely resembling the moral high ground or any ground for that matter ("Get off your high horse" she has said more than once).

Even if she wanted to, this woman could never come back with ongoing deep remorse and transparency. It is not in her nature and she simply does not believe she owes it to me. 

Her "other" life is deeply embedded. I do not mean the A, that is over. I am talking about her secret life where she fantasises about other men, reads FSOG & bodice rippers and talks to younger colleagues as though she is one of them (to a degree but with a real f**k you attitude to anyone - showing off I suppose). The life on FB (much reduced now), the contemporary music, the whatever....

In that sense she has been effectively single for quite some time. This bit I was blinded to but can now see so clearly. My eyes are wide open to this. In that sense it was not a giant leap to an affair.

She has even graduated from bodice rippers to more literary fair with the theme being about secret desires, secret lives. How well it fits with her psyche.

Whatever it is she is holding onto under this roof, it is not me. She is like anyone when it comes down to it - scared what the undiscovered country might reveal. Scared when the reality is reflected back.

Under these conditions we still think & talk about love and the last 18 years and the deep roots and the children but it is really a smokescreen. 

I'm like anyone. I fear all of this, I fear what she will be like once the wall of a broken relationship is finally breached - that I will still want her but that she will finally, fully have moved on. Just think about the variety of stages some of the BS's are at here on TAM.

There was one bloke I was reading yesterday whose wife has moved on and moved in with the OM and he is in deep depression wanting only her, the great love of his life - still believing that it is retrievable and feeling suicidal.

I'm thinking today that I should just set up in the spare room and remain civil but be effectively single under the same roof.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Sadly, it is all true. I have been given enough advice - more than enough. I want you all to remember that each of us are made up of very different experiences and genetic dispositions. Our ability to act to make decisions is a result of this.
> 
> I cannot deny or avoid the fact that her actions speak so much more than her words. It is clear that she has a huge reservoir of resentment built up over years. Thus the entitlement and thus the lying and justification.
> 
> She simply cannot have me occupy anything remotely resembling the moral high ground or any ground for that matter ("Get off your high horse" she has said more than once).
> 
> Even if she wanted to, this woman could never come back with ongoing deep remorse and transparency. It is not in her nature and she simply does not believe she owes it to me.
> 
> Her "other" life is deeply embedded. I do not mean the A, that is over. I am talking about her secret life where she fantasises about other men, reads FSOG & bodice rippers and talks to younger colleagues as though she is one of them (to a degree but with a real f**k you attitude to anyone - showing off I suppose). The life on FB (much reduced now), the contemporary music, the whatever....
> 
> In that sense she has been effectively single for quite some time. This bit I was blinded to but can now see so clearly. My eyes are wide open to this. In that sense it was not a giant leap to an affair.
> 
> She has even graduated from bodice rippers to more literary fair with the theme being about secret desires, secret lives. How well it fits with her psyche.
> 
> Whatever it is she is holding onto under this roof, it is not me. She is like anyone when it comes down to it - scared what the undiscovered country might reveal. Scared when the reality is reflected back.
> 
> Under these conditions we still think & talk about love and the last 18 years and the deep roots and the children but it is really a smokescreen.
> 
> I'm like anyone. I fear all of this, I fear what she will be like once the wall of a broken relationship is finally breached - that I will still want her but that she will finally, fully have moved on. Just think about the variety of stages some of the BS's are at here on TAM.
> 
> There was one bloke I was reading yesterday whose wife has moved on and moved in with the OM and he is in deep depression wanting only her, the great love of his life - still believing that it is retrievable and feeling suicidal.
> 
> I'm thinking today that I should just set up in the spare room and remain civil but be effectively single under the same roof.


She's suffereing from "grass is greener". Let her have it. If you stay in the home with her, it gives her points for being in her affair world. No downside, all positive because your good with it.

It's not good for you to be under the same roof with her, especially if you still love her. It's convusing to the brain, and shrinks the psyche and causes stress - because you no longer have the attachement that at one time was functional. It gets very stressful, I can say this because I've done it before.

Make good responsible decisions, it's good to have fun in life, to be responsible, but it almost never pays to allow someone to take advantage of your kindness.


----------



## LostViking

Don't damn yourself to an in-house separation. Either get a full time job and move out or file for divorce and petition the court for primary custody of the kids and child support since she is the primary earner and ask her to move out. 

You really screwed your life up allowing her to be the breadwinner. The day she became the breadwinner is when it all started going downhill for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Enginerd said:


> I read your whole thread. I usually don't comment in this forum because I find reconcilliation a ridiculous idea after someone cheats. I think you write very descriptively and it actually appears you enjoy it. It reads like a story complete with nifty dialog and it's very entertaining. Was that intentional?
> 
> Anyway, I think you need a serious wake up call if you're truely interested in improving your life and your ability to have a rewarding relationship with a women. You childhood story was very tragic, but you can't let that define you or give you an excuse to not take action. If you do you cannot move forward.
> 
> Your wife clearly does not love you, she does not respect you and she thinks she can brain wash you into believing her lies. At this point I think she's right. Your nothing but a codependant piece of clay to her and you seem OK with that. IMHO your only choice is to immediately find a full time job, work on yourself (physically and mentally) and get prepared to be independant. In your current state you have no future with her and your child is tragically observing how a broken man clings to a emotionally unavailable person. He will repeat this pattern if you don't handle this better. I'm sorry, but this is how it reads to me.


True, I am a frustrated writer (screenwriting, plays, short stories). I do tend to put things in that light. Serious stuff but I tend to flick to vaudeville. I like to laugh at situations and laugh at myself - despite the gravity. Just how I am. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Horizon

I'm doing hard labor every minute every day - she's out doing sh!t without a worry in the world. No contact now - guess it's her turn at the 180.


----------



## warlock07

180 is not a tit for tat game. It is about getting to a healthy place emotionally when in a bad marriage. It was not meant to manipulate your wife back into reconciling. She probably thinks you are pouting again once you start 180 again.


----------



## bandit.45

Horizon said:


> I'm doing hard labor every minute every day - she's out doing sh!t without a worry in the world. No contact now - guess it's her turn at the 180.


Then quit. You're a man who can make decisions. If she goes out to play then you take kids and go play.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ovid

She knows right from wrong and knows what she has done. She is not willing to deal with it, so fighting her will only lead to more fights. There is no tit for tat that can be won in a marriage. You are supposed to be two halves of a whole. Beating one another down just beats yourselves down in the process. She has proven she is no longer interested in being your wife. You can only do one thing now. You need to seperate yourself emotionally from her. You will not be able to move forward with your marriage, or ending your marriage until you are able to divide yourself from the whole and take control of your own life. You must become your own being. You cannot remain as half of a couple with her. You will only be left alone, still needing to detach, after she has finally left.

If you detach, take control and bring yourself up to where you should be, then maybe you can work with her and get the marriage back. At that point you may not want it back.


----------



## Ovid

Remember this 
"You haven't had an affair because no one will have you" 

I've never seen a more clear lack of remorse. Think about what it really says. She cheated because she is better than you. Why would you think you can resolve this? The existing marriage does not exist anywhere but your head. You need to destroy the illusion you are living in and start living in reality.


----------



## LongWalk

Ovid said:


> Remember this
> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"
> 
> I've never seen a more clear lack of remorse. Think about what it really says. She cheated because she is better than you. Why would you think you can resolve this? The existing marriage does not exist anywhere but your head. You need to destroy the illusion you are living in and start living in reality.


Horizon,

You are afraid to strike out on your own because you have so lost your inner bearings.

Stop trying engage her. She is not interested. Imagine that she has her life and you yours.

If divorce by law is too much for the two of at the moment, just divorce in emotionally. Find something (healthy) that interests you and get into it instead of dwelling on the ashes of your marriage.


----------



## Headspin

Ovid said:


> Remember this
> "You haven't had an affair because no one will have you"
> 
> I've never seen a more clear lack of remorse. Think about what it really says. She cheated because she is better than you. Why would you think you can resolve this? The existing marriage does not exist anywhere but your head. You need to destroy the illusion you are living in and start living in reality.


Well I made the point, god knows how many pages back, that to reconcile both parties have to have a vision of something that is worth saving 

I can't see that in a single post since Horizon came on here and posted about his situation and that's in all the threads he started combined 

From what I've seen there is simply nothing to save


----------



## Wazza

Headspin said:


> Well I made the point, god knows how many pages back, that to reconcile both parties have to have a vision of something that is worth saving
> 
> I can't see that in a single post since Horizon came on here and posted about his situation and that's in all the threads he started combined
> 
> From what I've seen there is simply nothing to save


I don't think it is anywhere near that clear.


----------



## Headspin

Wazza said:


> I don't think it is anywhere near that clear.


For me it's been that clear since the very post / thread I read about it .....but that's just me


----------



## Wazza

Headspin said:


> For me it's been that clear since the very post / thread I read about it .....but that's just me


Horizon is confused and that colours everything.

Clearly there are problems. But I can't get a clear picture on Mrs H, though my gut feel is she wants to fix things...which may or may not be possible.

Then there are the kids, which is a factor for some people.


----------



## Headspin

Wazza said:


> Horizon is confused and that colours everything.
> 
> Clearly there are problems. But I can't get a clear picture on Mrs H, though my gut feel is she wants to fix things...which may or may not be possible.
> 
> Then there are the kids, which is a factor for some people.


Have you read all the threads about this?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Horizon is confused and that colours everything.
> 
> Clearly there are problems. But I can't get a clear picture on Mrs H, though my gut feel is she wants to fix things...which may or may not be possible.
> 
> Then there are the kids, which is a factor for some people.


Sometimes people are so filled with resentment it blinds them. It may be they both want to fix this but they're so locked in on fighting each other that they can't even envision how.


----------



## Wazza

Headspin said:


> Have you read all the threads about this?


Yep. I never comment this much on a thread without reading everything.

The fact she ended the affair is significant. I don't think she is going about undoing the damage in the best way, but neither is Horizon.

And I thought Horizon's concern for the kids shine through loud and clear.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Sometimes people are so filled with resentment it blinds them. It may be they both want to fix this but they're so locked in on fighting each other that they can't even envision how.


This plus Horizon has his own issues to deal with.


----------



## Horizon

Hi,

just discovered my WP/ WD (wayward partner/ wayward defacto) does in fact have a Twitter account after also denying she ever had one.

Just wondering - can people speak one on one / privately on Twitter if they want to? Can't find any Twitter history. It could be that she did in fact open a twitter account but did not use it. Who the f**k knows with this woman?

By the way - she wants to recon, there is no doubt, but she wants her private world, the "single" identity she has established over the last few years. 

The chances that she will cheat again remain high IMHO. In the meantime I'm avoiding any clashes - the other night was the worst argument I have had in living memory.

She will not resile on any level from the twin lines about not enjoying the A and that I contributed to it (always re-stated in some form after the admission of no justification).


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> Hi,
> 
> just discovered my WP/ WD (wayward partner/ wayward defacto) does in fact have a Twitter account after also denying she ever had one.
> 
> Just wondering - can people speak one on one / privately on Twitter if they want to? Can't find any Twitter history. It could be that she did in fact open a twitter accountbut did not use it. Who the f**k knows with this woman?
> 
> By the way - she wants to recon, there is no doubt, but she wants her private world, the "single" identity she has established over the last few years.
> 
> The chances that she will cheat again remain high IMHO. In the meantime I'm avoiding any clashes - the other night was the worst argument I have had in living memory.
> 
> She will not resile on any level from the twin lines about not enjoying the A and that I contributed to it (always re-stated in some form after the admission of no justification).


I really don't get it horizon you need something worthy of saving here and with the best will in the world is this someone you can see yourself being truly happy with for the next ten years?

I really am mystified


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Hi,
> 
> just discovered my WP/ WD (wayward partner/ wayward defacto) does in fact have a Twitter account after also denying she ever had one.
> 
> Just wondering - can people speak one on one / privately on Twitter if they want to? Can't find any Twitter history. It could be that she did in fact open a twitter account but did not use it. Who the f**k knows with this woman?
> 
> By the way - she wants to recon, there is no doubt, but she wants her private world, the "single" identity she has established over the last few years.
> 
> The chances that she will cheat again remain high IMHO. In the meantime I'm avoiding any clashes - the other night was the worst argument I have had in living memory.
> 
> She will not resile on any level from the twin lines about not enjoying the A and that I contributed to it (always re-stated in some form after the admission of no justification).


Twitter, yes private communication is possible, but there are much better tools around if that was the goal.

Single world....up to you, and depends what she wants. I wouldn't accept it.

Not enjoying the affair...l dunno...if she feels guilty maybe she feels no joy in hindsight....but seems like crap to me too. You contributed.....well you might have contributed to weakness in the marriage. I don't buy letting her off the hook for that but I can see how she might believe it.

Broken record here...what are you doing to become independent so you can look her in the eye as an equal?


----------



## Robsia

On Twitter you can only send private messages if you are following each other. So if she is not following anyone, and has no followers then, no, she can't.

But why would she deny having one? Seems odd.


----------



## Horizon

Robsia said:


> On Twitter you can only send private messages if you are following each other. So if she is not following anyone, and has no followers then, no, she can't.
> 
> But why would she deny having one? Seems odd.


IMO it's all part of this "private world" she occupies. Not necessarily about cheating but more about her identity beyond us. 

I haven't mentioned it much but since DDay, particularly early on, she talked about being raped and violated because of what & how I uncovered details about her betrayal. It was all that initial defensive stuff, which to be honest is still there.

That has been one of the shocks about this (how many more shocks are wafting around out there I wonder) whole predicament. And it may be to do with control on my part. That this person who you call your life partner not only has built this other world but defends it.

I have to admit a bit of confusion on this because I don't think I have ever understood what my relationship expectations should be - on a very fundamental level. You can't occupy all of the your partners life.

However as a middle aged man I am learning the horrible control my father had over our family and how my mother enabled it through inaction - turning a blind eye. I can't help but wonder that the fear and ignorance that supports control has been manifest in me.

I have always been insecure, she is not, she is very comfortable in her own skin. I may have in fact been far worse as a long term partner than I realise. And as the candy store was more often closed than open I built more resentment and fear and tried to exert more control. It became an unhappy home for the two of us while bringing up our children.

The only areas I could exert control was to point out the profligate spending, bark about the drinking etc. The more I look at it the more horrible I can see that it was. Add to that my co-dependency which I was not tuned into but which I now know was me being like a child. Virtually telling her to make it better for me.

Yeah, it sounds pretty f**ked up because it is. But I'm trying to be realistic here, not trying to kick myself for the sake of it. If I can't be honest here what's the point. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home where nothing was concrete, where violence was random and often unjustified, where no lessons were being learned other than to fear the ones you are meant to love and outsiders. 

No wonder among my siblings none of us are close (except me and one of my beautiful older brothers who must carry that terrible burden of his daughter being a victim of his own father). There was no love in that house - it was a home for victims.

In this mix there were some very odd ideas about sex growing within the children. It was not discussed. If you were caught masturbating - and who hasn't been - it was frowned upon. if you went under the house with your neighbor to play doctors and nurses it created mayhem because the neighbors daughter came home minus her underwear.

A beating would follow. Never discussion, understanding or education. Everything therefore became internalised and thus distorted. Add in experiences of sexual abuse and it is a whirlpool of arrested development. My father f**ked our lives sideways.

You can imagine what it was like for me to go through my late teens dealing with an attraction to certain types of males as I did. It was very strange. Not a word about this passed my lips but the feelings, the desire was intense. But i passed through this stage, my attraction to females was always so much stronger.

Anyway, I'm rambling but I felt a need to confess when initially I felt the need to lambast my partner. Funny. Probably I hope this will give you some insight into what my partner has had to deal with. A boy trying in middle age to be a man. 

Makes you wonder what she saw / sees in me. I think that I was not like any other man she ever knew. She like my interest in the arts and my lack of fear for trying something new but now years later I just got old and annoying and hyper judgemental I suppose. Insecurity in overdrive, depression on the horizon. Not pretty. 

She needed to feel free and young and irresponsible. Almost as though she was single again, without kids even and available to do with someone of her own choice what we all did more frequently in days gone by (assuming you are 50+ and keeping in mind that not all is lost in that department). 

Shoot time to shut up and get on with this Recon or whatever it is.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Horizon, I grew up in much the same environment. Mentally and sexually abused for many many years. You're right. It messes your head up. Chances are you were far from Husband of the year. The Lord knows I wasn't despite thinking I was doing good.

Please, realise something though. You ARE worth something. Something much more than you're living. You DONT have to accept this. You ARE stronger than you maybe realise.

Since I started following your story, I haven't seen one thing positive to cling to. All I see is fear.

It's ok to be scared but its not ok to let it define you.

I know we don't know each other but if you ever feel the need to vent some of that childhood stuff feel free to PM. I'm happy to help if I can.

ETA. I really think you need to turn your focus away from her. You seem to retread the same ground about her constantly. Without wanting to project, I spent a long time looking around for things to dwell on, anything to keep me from facing my own inner demons.

One day, if you want to be free of them, you have to though.


----------



## warlock07

How did you find about the twitter account ? Have you asked her about it ?

Why does she keep lying about everything ? Seems to be a habit she developed over time to manage you.[ She said doesn't respect you -> She retracted it.. ] ->[Events after the first D-day] ->[Events after Dday 2]-> [claims that she did not enjoy the sex].. She consistent;y keeps lying to you to manage your emotions.

Why do you think she does that ?


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> How did you find about the twitter account ? Have you asked her about it ?
> 
> Why does she keep lying about everything ? Seems to be a habit she developed over time to manage you.[ She said doesn't respect you -> She retracted it.. ] ->[Events after the first D-day] ->[Events after Dday 2]-> [claims that she did not enjoy the sex].. She consistent;y keeps lying to you to manage your emotions.
> 
> Why do you think she does that ?


Just by trolling through old e-mails. But it's a dead end thankfully. Why does she lie? It must be more than one reason.

Probably self-preservation is the main instinct but the thought that precedes the lie is more interesting. "I'm not going to tell that controller about my private business" - "I'm not going to have an STD test because he demands it"....Just think - she still has not had the test and shows no sign of doing so!

She stopped using the pill a few years ago without telling me. There was a brief discussion about the idea of going off it and a few jokes about me having a vasectomy. But no conclusive announcement. She then went off it. I had no idea.

On one occasion that ahole wanted to cum inside her but she wouldn't let him, so she says. I was pushing the possibility of her falling pregnant and even if she might fall pregnant to me. She dug up some research from the net this week to assuage my concerns - "I know my cycles, after 45 this and that...." Then I go and do research and find out that there are women who have conceived by accident at all sorts of advanced years. Why the apparent irresponsibility? 

To admit she enjoyed the sex....maybe it's a few things. maybe she knows how deeply that would hurt (he's better than me). But then again she has said some very hurtful things anyway. Denial? Worried what it might say about her? I really don't know. I have speculated that maybe it was in fact a bit of a letdown but that does seem like BS. She did go back for seconds and thirds. Any takers on this one?

Lies come so easily to her. You'd think after I busted her on the STD test that she'd be in the clinic ASAP but no. It's like she saying "hey, I know I haven't got any disease, it's my body, stop hassling me". Complete lack of respect - as though she doesn't see the ramifications of what she's doing.


----------



## Horizon

Looking for some POV's on exposing the POSOM at his workplace. I was thinking to take it up with human resources. My basis for this was the very last contact with my partner toward the end of March where he is clearly trying to start up again after they had mutually agreed to end it.

(looking at the e-mails this was a bit of a game between them - we don't want to break up but we have to there is too much at stake but we'll keep in touch, we could keep talking and.....) You get the picture. 

My angle would be that this bloke is a loose cannon and that even though there has been 8 weeks since any contact, of any description, that there is clearly a pattern of it being re-ignited with instigation by him. I intend to push my "deep concern" that their employee, a senior manager no less, is acting very irresponsibly.

No matter how he might spin this to his colleagues I could at least plant that seed and rock his world. I even considered making a direct approach to the parent company in the USA.

Just wondering what you all think of this tactic. I know some of you will disagree but this pr**k is occupying so much of my head space that I have to address the imbalance. And quite frankly I know enough about him to know that he has his whole "player" routine wired. 

Fools like my partner are falling for it hook, line and sinker. Thoughts????


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## Shaggy

Was it a workplace affair?


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## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Looking for some POV's on exposing the POSOM at his workplace. I was thinking to take it up with human resources. My basis for this was the very last contact with my partner toward the end of March where he is clearly trying to start up again after they had mutually agreed to end it.
> 
> (looking at the e-mails this was a bit of a game between them - we don't want to break up but we have to there is too much at stake but we'll keep in touch, we could keep talking and.....) You get the picture.
> 
> My angle would be that this bloke is a loose cannon and that even though there has been 8 weeks since any contact, of any description, that there is clearly a pattern of it being re-ignited with instigation by him. I intend to push my "deep concern" that their employee, a senior manager no less, is acting very irresponsibly.
> 
> No matter how he might spin this to his colleagues I could at least plant that seed and rock his world. I even considered making a direct approach to the parent company in the USA.
> 
> Just wondering what you all think of this tactic. I know some of you will disagree but this pr**k is occupying so much of my head space that I have to address the imbalance. And quite frankly I know enough about him to know that he has his whole "player" routine wired.
> 
> Fools like my partner are falling for it hook, line and sinker. Thoughts????


A senior manager is having consensual sex with another employee. If she works for him or he for her, then maybe it's a lever. Unless you can demonstrate some conflict of interest, I would think the company would leave itself open to discrimination charges if they took action.

Horizon, if your wife doesn't want to be faithful, then either she wants an open marriage or she doesn't want to reconcile.

Sorry, I know you are hurting but I am not seeing you pulling any of the levers that will solve your problem. You seem to be willing to stay in a place where you depend on the mercy if someone who has already demonstrated they won't necessarily do the right thing.


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## Horizon

Affair is well & truly over, I just want to get the SOB. They worked together in 2011. I need to rock this SOB's boat.


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## Horizon

"I'm in Recon and it's great for a day or two and then all that stuff just rises to the surface or, interestingly, an oft repeated phrase or attitude from the WS is now completely unacceptable.

I am much more comfortable laying down the law now - so there are benefits. I no longer care whether she has a problem with it or not.

If I say that the our children should definitely not be having extra desert after dinner then I mean it. You may have not supported my parenting for years in many small ways but those days are over.

Same goes for the profligate spending - I have told you, asked you, done every bloody thing to make you understand that it is your spending that is sending us broke. To not only rack up mountains of online purchases to the point of addiction but to run up a separate massive Amex debt is now finally unacceptable.

You finally say you agree - what? It took an affair for you to wake up? Give me strength - you have been warned!!!!"

-------

Part of what I just posted on another thread. NMMNG!!!!


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## bfree

Horizon, I don't know if this has been suggested before but have you thought about having your wife post on TAM in order to see the reactions and hurt that others BS's talk about? I know that in some cases there was so much resentment built up in the marriage that the WS's couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge it from their own husband/wife. But when they came to TAM they were able to see and identify with other BS's that they had no resentment toward and then they could acknowledge the pain their own spouse was feeling. I realize that you might want to keep TAM as your own personal space and that is certainly not a bad thing. I also don't know how your wife feels about posting on message boards. But I thought it might be worth a mention.


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## The Middleman

bfree:
With all due respect, that's just not a god idea. This place needs to be for Horizon; to help him. This his his safe place to vent and hear a a diversity of opinion. If his wife comes here .... in a few weeks, posters are taking sides. He's better off here alone.


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## happyman64

Horizon

I think you should do whatever you feel is necessary to thwart the OM.

You need to do it because your partner cannot be trusted to do the right thing at this time.

And if she is spending out of control then you need to stop that too! And she needs to let you take control of all savings as well as all the spending.

Stay firm and continue to take control of your family.

HM64


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## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



The Middleman said:


> bfree:
> With all due respect, that's just not a god idea. This place needs to be for Horizon; to help him. This his his safe place to vent and hear a a diversity of opinion. If his wife comes here .... in a few weeks, posters are taking sides. He's better off here alone.


No I understand that but I have seen it work on certain occasions so I thought it should be suggested at least.


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## Acabado

bfree said:


> No I understand that but I have seen it work on certain occasions so I thought it should be suggested at least.


Ive read almost all horizon posts. His wife is not TAM material at all.


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## the guy

Acabado said:


> Ive read almost all horizon posts. His wife is not TAM material at all.


:iagree:
Either am I, but I'm here!:rofl:


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## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Acabado said:


> Ive read almost all horizon posts. His wife is not TAM material at all.


Probably true. At this point I guess maybe I'm grasping at straws in order to try to help Horizon.


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## LostViking

Getting even with the OM is a waste of time. She will find another OM, and another, and another. 

She has no love or respect for her husband and probably never will. She is the problem he needs to address.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

bfree said:


> Probably true. At this point I guess maybe I'm grasping at straws in order to try to help Horizon.


I'm sure about it.


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## alte Dame

Any change in the drinking?


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## Horizon

alte Dame said:


> Any change in the drinking?


No change, but a recognition over the weekend that her spending (not to mention the $ cost of her drinking) is sending us into the red zone.

Since I last posted we have been hit by the rude shock that we are up for the best part of $10,000 for surgery and major dental work between now and years end.

Hello darling are you listening? You should see the crap she has bought over the years particularly with the advent of online shopping. A work colleague recently referred to her as an online shopping *****.

I should apologise for my part in this fiasco - I confess I spent $38 at a target summer stock clearance 2 weeks ago. I needed to replace the discount store chic rags I was getting around in.


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## Acabado

What? Horizon got banned!
Hope it's only temporary. Sure enough he needs TAM.


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## Robsia

^Yup, getting banned is going to help him out of this for sure!


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## Horizon

Yes, banned and well deserved.

So anyway, it goes on and on. It's this horrible limbo land. Can't get the other dude out of my head.

Not sure if I told you about the massive blow-up when I discovered she had not had the STD test because I demanded it. Yes, and still will not. The obvious thing occurred to me soon after - because I had my test and it came back negative well her attitude is there's no need anyway. Breathtaking - you'd think she'd just do it to appease me. No way - I demand.

And as you well know she refuses to acknowledge on any level that she enjoyed the PA with the snake. I have dissected and bisected and sliced and diced but to no avail - I wasn't there. Even my counselor had a somewhat bemused and then shocked look on his face this week when I quoted ( as I can so well do now ) word for word some of the more graphic e-mails.

The counselor agreed without any question that this was an intense and lustful connection. My partner cannot deal with that and denies, denies, denies....Ask Freud why I must know but there you have it. I mean WTF!, is this going to be an admission that trickles out in years to come?

There are triggers everywhere and I am obsessed with cleaning this snake up good and proper. What about an entrance during a boardroom meeting? Let his colleagues know who they are working with - that would be a shocking first time face to face for him. I guess security would have me out of there pronto - oh well.

Here is an an example of the feedback I get when I find the obvious holes in her stories. I wont post anything like this again (there are a few cuts for obvious reasons, but nothing altered spice it up. It is what it is)

"You have to stop doing this – you are now actually starting to really, really damage any relationship we have left. You don’t WANT to believe me – you want to believe what you want to believe and no matter how many times I tell you, you are not going to believe me – so why do you keep asking.

I can keep telling you the same thing over and over, but we are getting nowhere. You ask me why I wasn’t honest with you, particularly about the test – gee I wonder, the reaction I get from you to anything that I do at the moment is over the top. How could I not agree to do it, you were not going to accept any other response from me!!! You keep backing me into corners, ready to pounce and wonder why I am gun shy – seriously!! I cannot stand the walking on eggshells that I am having to do. I don’t know what will set you off, one minute you tell me to be honest and the next you are trying to strangle me because I have told you the truth. Not exactly circumstances conducive to honesty!!!!!!!

I am trying to keep everything on an even keel for the kids and I want to work this out, but we CANNOT keep going on like this. I CAN’T change what has happened, but YOU CAN CHANGE the way you decide to deal with it.

You are the only one that can decide how you want this to go and what you are going to do – but I have to be honest, I WILL NOT tolerate the assumption that I am lying to you, when I am not and the fact that you “demand” that I do as you want me to do. That is not a relationship and that is NOT how we will go forward.

We need to be a partnership and I will not be continually punished by you for this. I am punishing myself enough and I don’t need you to constantly throw it in my face and make jokes about it.

This is serious and you NEED to decide how you plan to go forward and how you plan to treat me – I CANNOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LIVE UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS and I have obviously proved that to you now – so you have to decide if you can live with that. Your expectations of people is absolutely exhausting. You don’t give a **** about anything that is happening to anyone else all you care about is what is happening to you.

For the last 12 weeks I have been dealing with an injury that needs operating on (which you are just pissed off about – thanks for that), I have been trying to work with you to fix this, feeling and being told constantly that this is NOT enough. I have been trying to keep up full time work and to try and maintain some sort of “normal” for the kids and this week I have been suffering badly with a nasty cold and you seriously DON’T GIVE A ****! All you care about is that “I am not giving you enough attention” – yes, I can feel the vibe. I feel the daggers every time I say I am going to bed because I am exhausted. 

If you want us to work this out – you really have to stop the “demanding” and the expectations of what I SHOULD be doing and deal with what I am doing. I don’t have all day to sit around thinking about this like you.

I am f***ing exhausted to the point of tears – yes, any little thing tips me off at the moment, because right now I feel like I have no love, no support and no one gives a **** about me , that I am a f***king disappointment to you every f***king day – no matter what I do."

I'm such a bloody awful shadow of a man. I wont copy you on my reply to this - you might imagine what I said. Some kind of life this is.


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## happyman64

Horizon

There comes a time when a BS needs to back off the relationship, the reconciliation for a little while.

You are very hurt and whie your WW thinks she is working on the relationship you do not.

Justifiably so but at this point in time more damage s being done than good.

So back off. Take a breather. Communicate this to your WS.

And really do it.

Let the animosity you both have or each other decrease.

Both of you focus on yourselves and kids.

When things calm down then put the effort on the relationship.

HM


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## jnj express

Hey Horizon----forget the snake---yes he is lowlife scum------but forget him, besides, he's just adding to your blood boiling over, and having a mental breakdown

You have a beef with ONE PERSON, AND ONE PERSON ONLY---that is YOUR WIFE----she is the one and only person, who took vows with you----NO ONE ELSE, JUST HER

Forget everyone else---it is your wife, who you have to deal with, it is your wife, who is either gonna remain your wife, or become an ex---that is all up to you---but you need to stop, living in all this misery

Do what you must do---either she does what a R'ing spouse is spose to do, or you cut her loose

Yes it is more complex that that in the details, but in all actuality, it is just as simple as that

Your kids will make, just as millions before them, who are/were the product of D's------You need to stop blowing your self apart---you are no good to anyone----and in all honesty, I get the impression, your so called wife COULD CARE LESS


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## Acabado

happyman is right, you must detach and focus on doing your thing. Your wife is truly delusional.


Horizon said:


> "You have to stop doing this – you are now actually starting to really, really damage any relationship we have left. You don’t WANT to believe me – you want to believe what you want to believe and no matter how many times I tell you, you are not going to believe me – so why do you keep asking.


... she's lying, can't stop lying, the last one (puting aside the sex thing) is about the never done STD test (which she previously agreed). The following justification is... well.


> I can keep telling you the same thing over and over, but we are getting nowhere. You ask me why I wasn’t honest with you, particularly about the test – gee I wonder, the reaction I get from you to anything that I do at the moment is over the top. How could I not agree to do it, you were not going to accept any other response from me!!! You keep backing me into corners, ready to pounce and wonder why I am gun shy – seriously!! I cannot stand the walking on eggshells that I am having to do. I don’t know what will set you off, one minute you tell me to be honest and the next you are trying to strangle me because I have told you the truth. Not exactly circumstances conducive to honesty!!!!!!!


Let me resume her logic here: She won't do anything you "demand", just becasue it's a demand, therefore unreasonable and she won't ever ever got there. Period.
Of course, she had to lie about it.
Then, back to the first quote. She's not lying, "if you want to believe...", she just won't comply with any demand.


> You are the only one that can decide how you want this to go and what you are going to do – but I have to be honest, I WILL NOT tolerate the assumption that I am lying to you, when I am not and the fact that you “demand” that I do as you want me to do. That is not a relationship and that is NOT how we will go forward.


Again, insists she's not lying at the same time she acknowledge she will lie if fits her, as refusing any demands (anything more reasonable but an STD test after an affair?).
And let's not forget the treat in the first place, shut it up already or...

The rest of her tirade is... I can't keep quoting her flawed logic, the defiance, the stuborness... the lack of remorse.


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## maree

Here is my opinion, and it's only based on my experience...

My brief experience is such. My H had an EA a couple of years ago with a woman he had gone to high school with and recently reconnected. I know no PA started (she lived several states away) but no doubt, one would have existed had she lived locally or had a way to visit.

Anyways. Here is what I see in your situation.

You, as well as your W, seem to have come from very difficult backgrounds where both of you have been profoundly scarred and hurt by other people. She has a drinking issue that she does not care to control. She also had an A. There seems to be a lot of resentment between the two of you, not all directly related to the A. The A has brought out all of this resentment, and added to it as well. You mention there were problems before the A, which obviously were not adequately dealt with at the time(s) in which they should have been addressed. The A is one of these, and is not a result of either.

However, what has resulted from all of your relationship issues that have not been addressed, on both sides, and the deep emotional hurt/scars that you both bear, is a breakdown in communication. You are both unable to have a conversation without all of the bitterness and resentment coming out and overwhelming both of you, forcing these 10 minute talks that your counselor suggested to be too much of an emotional burden for either of you to face. 

What have you done to move forward in your reconciliation? You mention seeing a psychologist - do both of you regularly see one? Since the 10 minute talks did not work, did you report as such to your psychologist for more suggestions? If your psychologist does not seem to be able to address the mountain of issues that you both seem to have, I recommend getting another one.

A counselor needs to be brought in to address
> your SO's drinking problems; she will not stop until she sees it as a problem, and she needs professional help to get her there
> your SO's denial of issues her A has created/deflection of her responsibility for the feelings it has created
> her childhood issues, which obviously have created an impression on her (enjoying male attention?)
> your childhood issues, esp the molestation; resulting in your issues of self worth/esteem
> the affair
> the difference in parenting styles
> and I suspect there are other issues that have not come to light.

You both may need IC as well as MC. Possibly a different counselor for each issue would be beneficial.

In order to reconcile, you need to forgive. She needs to forgive. You both need to decide what needs to happen in order for you both to forgive and move forward. Expectations from both of you need to be made CLEARLY and followed by both of you. You cannot assume that your wife/SO knows you need more affection. You need to tell her, and follow through. Complete honesty is also an expectation you have, you need to make this absolutely clear - and you need to tell her what results if the expectations are not reasonably upheld.

So far, it sounds like the expectations are not in stone and no consequences are being upheld for the expectations not being upheld. I personally do not see any step mentioned that would bring you and your SO closer to R, if that is what you want.

I do feel that the 180 can give you some perspective over what you want. You will have time to reflect on your issues/expectations and what to do if your W/SO does not follow through. I also feel that staying in limbo for so long with no forward steps being made can damage your relationship beyond repair. If you want your relationship to ever move forward you need to take control over it, and outline to your wife exactly what she needs to do to save your relationship. If she cannot prove to you that it is worth it (seeking help for her alcoholism, and her issues) then you need to show her the door. But you need to make sure all is clear before you do that.

All of the arguing is obviously not making your situation better, if anything, it IS making it worse. I only agree with your W on one thing - the way that this is being approached *by both of you* is damaging your relationship, and eventually it will never be able to be repaired. What I see is you both lashing out at each other, saying things to hurt one another, and verbal abuse will never go away for both of you. You will be surprised that what you say to your wife and what she says to you, just to hurt one another, will stick forever. She has hurt you - but if you are working towards R, there is no place for karma to be put on her. You need to be focusing on putting all of this behind you and it sounds like you both need professional help to know what to do.


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## Horizon

You'll love this. My file with all the e-mails, hidden away, on our PC is empty. She searched, found it and dumped them. Not a word and I have not said a thing. The bald faced audacity. Thank God I'm smarter than she thinks.


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## warlock07

Put them again in the same place and make another copy in the cloud..


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## cpacan

I actually agree with your wife in some of the things she says. You are not in a place to "demand" anything, and no, that's not what I would call a relationship. I used to do it myself, so I won't blame anyone for doing it.

The way you two interact is counterproductive as I see it, Maree described it pretty well above.

You need to find out for yourself what and how much you are willing to accept if you stay in the relationship. If these boundaries are crossed, you need to figure out how to react on it. For instance; I am not going to have sex with her before she has gotten herself tested. And I am going to live in a sexless marriage. I'll give her one week to get the test. Communicate it to her in a calm manner that this is what you need. If she doesn't, no screaming and no cursing, just follow through with consequences - one consequence could be that you leave, or you file - just make sure that it happens so that it's not just a thread.

This way, there is no demands, no controlling behaviour, just you expressing what you need for yourself and acting on whether you get what you need or not. And yes, lots of counselling for both of you, I would say.


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## Shaggy

If shes hunting for and destroying evidence that you already know, i would say she's planning on filing for D or kicking you out.

Destroying it doesn't hide it from you. So who is she hiding it from?

Bottom line - why are you letting yourself go through this?


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## warlock07

Horizon, you cannot make her do what you want by arguing and crticizing her, even though you are right. Logic doesn't work. She isn't mature enough like that. All this arguments is only turning out in her favor. The arguments, mental manipulation, blaming you for everything, making you doubt your sanity is her territory. Don't enter into it.. By arguing with you and pointing out your faults is how she is able to live with what she did. Remember what happened when you did 180. She couldn't bear it and broke down. Why do you think that happened ? she had no one but herslef to argue with. She knows the real truth, hence the break down. 
She dragged you back into her world, that too during the sex

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And more so much by forcing it to.

Do what cpacan advised you. Make some boundaries. Make some rules. If she cannot do that, think about what you are going to do. Make plans to move on without her. If it is divorce, so be it. If you are unwilling to follow through consequences, you are prolonging your own misery.


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## Horizon

She doesn't want me quoting from it and she is afraid it will pop up as "evidence" one day (IMO). 

Thanks happyman64, jnjexpress, Acabado, Maree, warlock07, cpacan - great insight & advice. I will start this again morning to focus on the things that I expect & only what I can do.

I have had some sort of breakthrough again with the spending but not the drinking. I have discovered almost a $1,000 payments on her private AMEX. I have told her that this has to stop or we will lose the house. She was a bit agitated because she had already agreed to put a stop to what I term "frivolous" spending. At least she has agreed to that - we will see.

Who would have thought in their wildest dreams that in their middle age they would have to go through something like this. I hate the expression but it truly SUCKS !!!!


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> She doesn't want me quoting from it and she is afraid it will pop up as "evidence" one day (IMO).
> 
> Thanks happyman64, jnjexpress, Acabado, Maree, warlock07, cpacan - great insight & advice. I will start this again morning to focus on the things that I expect & only what I can do.
> 
> I have had some sort of breakthrough again with the spending but not the drinking. I have discovered almost a $1,000 payments on her private AMEX. I have told her that this has to stop or we will lose the house. She was a bit agitated because she had already agreed to put a stop to what I term "frivolous" spending. At least she has agreed to that - we will see.
> 
> Who would have thought in their wildest dreams that in their middle age they would have to go through something like this. I hate the expression but it truly SUCKS !!!!


Horizon

Some genuine honest questions.

Given everything 

a/ from before when the infidelities were going on with it's own specific brand of deceit and 
b/ the behavior since 

what is is that you can see yourself reconciled with?

Do you ask yourself what exactly about this person is it that makes you want to stay with them

Do all these details money drink etc actually matter any more? 
In the grand scheme of things are you prepared to be there with any of it in your mind in years to come.

If after everything she suddenly tomorrow said "okay yep its me I've been a complete dvckhead abused us and our relationship etc etc " ......true remorse etc would that make you think everything can be 'alright' 

I'm curious as to where your line is now ? 
What is your deal breaker in all of this?


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## happyman64

Horizon said:


> You'll love this. My file with all the e-mails, hidden away, on our PC is empty. She searched, found it and dumped them. Not a word and I have not said a thing. The bald faced audacity. Thank God I'm smarter than she thinks.


If you want suggestions on how to secure this info just PM me.


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## Wazza

Your wife is a control freak, right?


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## Horizon

Headspin,

you've got me by the short and curlys. This is the thing. I honestly can't answer your insightful questions, but I'll try.

I don't know what it is I am seeking from her. Sometimes I sit there, as I did today before taking her to hospital, and look at her and wonder what the hell it is I need from her. Am I that weak? I want to be closer to her or want her somehow or have her want me really badly but it seems out of reach.

I think it is because the affair put the spotlight so directly on our problems and also brought in this whole new world of problems associated with being deceived that I want her and I hate her. I still on occasion want to shake the sh!t out of her for what I am going through.

More lately I have thought about not being with her at all purely because I can't escape what has happened - I don't want to be associated with it, I don't want to be that bloke who was cheated on. Think about it, when you are anywhere with family or friends you know something they don't save her best friend and my brother. 

I want to scream it out - "She f**king cheated on me!!!!" but you never do. I truly feel I'm coming to a point, albeit slowly where I just cannot go on with this. I've got this snake in my head, that's tough enough to deal with let alone looking at or sleeping next to the betrayer, it is disorientating beyond words.

When I push for sex (ever so slightly) and we do it I know I am trying to have some connection and some pleasure but it ends up being oddly unsatisfying even when it's all for me. No oral either, no way, nothing exotic, not yet, she's not ready for that, not at that stage. All said with subtlety but I'm left with the image of her gladly swallowing his you know what three times. I'm not entitled to that just yet. See how sick it has become. I'm thinking all this type of sh!t before during and after.

At the same time I kind of berate myself for not stepping up and controlling my thinking - being mentally strong and somehow reversing all this mind-speak.

Maybe I have just been describing "the line" and it's a slo mo dawning, I don't know. Maybe it is the slo mo deal breakere and I'm just getting up to speed.

I am wondering now how long this "condition" will last. I do wonder every day what it is about her that keeps me there. I think the truth is that I am so hopelessly dependent that I know no other way. That I've unwittingly always been like this in my relationships.

It's a tough learning curve but it has shown me how emasculated I have allowed myself to become. Right now I wish I could up and leave - say for 2 weeks. I do have a contact who might be able to give me a room. then I think - sh!t, what if she actually likes it and completely flicks me - "you brought it on yourself". See I'm in a weak place.

And nothing's going to happen for two months while she'd recovering from her operation anyway. But I do have an option with the room, I can still whip around and do my Dad thing. I guess the potential for finality scares me and being replaced by some better alpha male is a bit freaky. But you could argue that it is only replacing one discomfort zone with another.

Getting close to decision time I think.


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## Northern Monkey

Who or what she may end up with should have no bearing on your decision. Easier said than done but a cheater is a cheater. Unless she rectified those faults in her it is what she is.

Ha, from what I've read, she probably has less chance of a "better more alpha" once officially available. They don't want to deal with her crazy.. that's what you, as tje betrayed husband are for.

That better more alpha is bulshyt btw. Yes you enabled her transgressions by not enforcing boundaries but that doesn't mean the pondscum that wanted to hookup with her were better or more alpha than you.

Don't berate yourself like that. I doubt any of them were really a patch on you or she would have settled on one of them wouldn't she? 

Remember, you can only own and change what is yours. The rest is hers and hers alone.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks a million NM, you made me feel better. It's been a very mixed bag of emotions. I have been putting myself down - to be honest I have hated aspects of myself for most of my life. Probably a bi-product of the abuse I endured particularly the mental abuse.

I think that I like many people live with a need to destroy themselves while trying desperately to put on that mask each day. It's fake - you don't really know who you are or what you want. I'm guessing other people in my boat have experienced the same feeling. I've been dealing with this for decades. 

You can imagine the havoc it brings to personal relationships and health. 

Anyway I believe that a relationship for people like me is an essential security blanket and a place to settle on that elusive identity we want so bad. And we tend to gravitate to strong women (shoot all the women I have ever known have been more together than me) to mother us because that was missing earlier in life. We want them to be both mother & father. Not conductive to a healthy partnership if the other one also has their own significant issues.

So you can see how breaking away is so daunting. I wonder if others here who have not had a troubled upbringing have any clue what is like to be dogged 24/7 by insecurity.

I do have a question - is it really possible to regain that passion with your WS; the highly charged, no holds barred physical relationship you once enjoyed? I have already stated that she is just doing the physical to please me even though we are both enjoying the "connection" that it brings - nice words & feelings. 

Despite this, after 2 months since DDay I feel that she is not really into me. That's what it amounts to - the awful "ILYBINILWY". Not stated bu kind of apparent and hence the places she wont go to. Or am I too keen to get back something that is long gone?


----------



## bfree

Two quick points. 

You can't come close to a decision. You make it one way or another.

Second, she's not into you because you have chosen to stay with an unrepentant cheater. If you think about it is there anything less attractive? You want her to be into you? Walk away from her. Then she'll want you more than life itself.


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## cpacan

It's gone...

You must decide if you think you can have a new and giving relationship with this new woman emerging in front of you.


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## warlock07

> Despite this, after 2 months since DDay I feel that she is not really into me.


Really ? Maybe because we only hear your version of things but what did she actually do after the D-day ?


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## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> Really ? Maybe because we only hear your version of things but what did she actually do after the D-day ?


Well she got angry, she went on the defensive, she opened up that whole thing - some of which is repeated in that section of e-mail i posted. That I turned away from her, always criticising, always demanding, treated her like a wh**e, only wanting sex, blah, blah blah....

We went through the various phases though not much hysterical bonding which kind of bothered me. A lot of arguing back and forth as described - me constantly analysing the A and myself.

She has maintained all the way that I am the love of her life - she just will not abide the plan B idea, the dependable but not so attractive bloke at home, the rock etc. I'm the one and only she says but....we lost it along the way and she strayed.

She has expressed what a fool she was to be duped by the smooth snake but I don't really buy that - it just makes me more angry at the idea that there are blokes out there who can pull off the oldest trick around - preying on vulnerable women. But....it takes two to tango. The predators wouldn't succeed without an accomplice and besides - who was really doing the chasing. Does it matter?

She has apologised more than once and cried profusely at times but....as soon as I try to lay down the law she gets her back up. So....she wants us to reconcile, she is not seeing or talking to the snake (who ignores my attempts to contact him now) and she wants to carry on as normal effectively. But we both know this is far from normal.

She has been trying to be more affectionate - something she was not good at. And I appreciate it.... there are a lot of things to be worked through and a whole new relationship to be built. I'm good and bad as I have said. I'm still here - and I am not putting up with any sh!t. I'm working on the spending and chipping away ever so much on the drinking. She'll be in hospital for nearly three days so I'm hoping a sort of "drying out" my take hold. Feint hope but anyway.

Hope this answered your question W07 - cheers


----------



## MattMatt

Yep. It hurts, doesn't it? Takes a long time to get over it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey

Horizon, I totally hear you about abuse. Hell the self destruct button that came free with mine, is big and shiny. I so love to press it from time to time. You know, see if it will do something new just this once..

I've spent my whole life searching for validation from others rather than myself.

That's why we doubt our every move. We have got used to getting our value and validation from abusers and broken people. That's one of the big things I've taken from TAM. My instinctive thoughts aren't as crazy as the [email protected] that have messed with me would have me think. I get to sanity check myself here, with people that aren't out to oppress or abuse me.

It's refreshing but it is hard to accept what we are told here. It doesn't equate to what we were programmed with.

I had to make a concerted ongoing effort to listen and break my programming.

Come on in, the waters lovely.


----------



## LostViking

First thing? Get a full time job. Earn your own money and quit being dependent on her. Right now she has all the clout in the marriage and knows it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

"as soon as I try to lay down the law"

I think this is the issue. As soon as she sees you as controlling a situation, she think you are lording over her because of the affair. The reason she cannot see you making rules for her or control the direction of R is because she has absolutely no respect for you. She probably thinks you will use the affair as a tool to trash her for the rest of the marriage if she doesn't stop it. So she argues back. (Which includes her lying because she needs to control you and the situation from spiraling out of her control)

Time to have a hard discussion with her with Yes-No questions


----------



## warlock07

I also think you should ask her to explain what "love of my life" means. Does it mean her longest partner ?


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> "as soon as I try to lay down the law"
> 
> I think this is the issue. As soon as she sees you as controlling a situation, she think you are lording over her because of the affair. The reason she cannot see you making rules for her or control the direction of R is because she has absolutely no respect for you. She probably thinks you will use the affair as a tool to trash her for the rest of the marriage if she doesn't stop it. So she argues back. (Which includes her lying because she needs to control you and the situation from spiraling out of her control)
> 
> Time to have a hard discussion with her with Yes-No questions


Spot on - she has always had a problem with dominant men (her father). I have always wondered if she found sex to be a way to control men. Apparently she used to reel them in before my term - knocked off quite a few. Who hasn't I guess and yet another what if / maybe mind f**k diversion. Must learn to focus on what i do know.

Wazza, you nailed it - she's the control freak!!!! I'm this dude who appears to be a control freak but in reality has been cast that way because I have been trying for years to reign in her "wayward" persona. I have been turned into a control freak.

Will you pls cut back on your drinking - NO
Will you stop frivoulous spending!!!! - NO
Will you stop throwing recycled waste in the regular bin - NO
Will you stop ripping off clothing label plastic tags and discarding them throughout the house - NO
Will you rinse off congealed food on plates before loading the dishwasher - NO
Will you stop splashing your empty coffee cup into the sink sending coffee everywhere - NO
Can you stop leaving the kitchen like a war zone after you cook - NO
Will you stop bringing home "gifts" for the children even the most insignificant "freebee" from work - NO
Will you stop rewarding the children for no effort just because it makes you feel better - NO
Will you stop buying the BS sports drinks after sport and let them drink water - NO....
Can we have sex tonight? - NO!!!! (deliberate attempt at humor)

(this list may seem petty but it's fact - maybe it's normal sh!t. I don't think so. She's a bit of a slob and I hate clutter)

And yes W07, she is concerned that I will smash her until the end of time with the A - the sword of Damocles. And based on what I have read on TAM how do you avoid that anyway. An affair is the gift of pain that just keeps giving. 

Yes, this is her controlling it. Justification, arguing, anger, "you're destroying us"...etc it's all in fact a rear guard maneuvre designed to take back the lost ground - to control it.

What did you mean by the hard yes/no discussion?


----------



## Horizon

Northern Monkey said:


> Horizon, I totally hear you about abuse. Hell the self destruct button that came free with mine, is big and shiny. I so love to press it from time to time. You know, see if it will do something new just this once..
> 
> I've spent my whole life searching for validation from others rather than myself.
> 
> That's why we doubt our every move. We have got used to getting our value and validation from abusers and broken people. That's one of the big things I've taken from TAM. My instinctive thoughts aren't as crazy as the b[email protected] that have messed with me would have me think. I get to sanity check myself here, with people that aren't out to oppress or abuse me
> 
> It's refreshing but it is hard to accept what we are told here. It doesn't equate to what we were programmed with.
> 
> I had to make a concerted ongoing effort to listen and break my programming.
> 
> Come on in, the waters lovely.


Thanks NM, I will send you a PM soon. Appreciate your insights - It's a hell of a way to live. if anything I am learning about me and that's a good thing.


----------



## KanDo

Horizon,

You expect her to respect and love you when you don't respect and love yourself. From what you have written, there is no remorse, no guilt, no attempt at reconciliation. Without these aspects you will not recover. PERIOD. Wishing won't make it so.

You need to respect yourself enough to say I am worthy of someone who respects me. You appear entirely co-dependent. From what you write, I can't understand why you want to stay a moment longer with this woman. 

You are in a hell of your own creation. Set specific boundries and be willing to lose her. (in reality she is already gone)

If it was me I would just file. Divorce takes time. If she sees you as a man, someone who respects himself enough to not be pushed over, you might see remorse in her and a potential for true recovery. I think she has demonstrated significant pathology and there really is no hope. You current course is centail to end in failure, IMHO.


----------



## LostViking

I would divorce her now. If I am correct it takes one year of legal separation in Oz before the case even goes to court. Is that correct? If so, what are you waiting for? That gives her a year to prove she either wants to save the marriage or let you go. I suspect the latter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin

KanDo said:


> Horizon,
> 
> You expect her to respect and love you when you don't respect and love yourself. From what you have written, there is no remorse, no guilt, no attempt at reconciliation. Without these aspects you will not recover. PERIOD. Wishing won't make it so.
> 
> You need to respect yourself enough to say I am worthy of someone who respects me. You appear entirely co-dependent.


This is the very heart of the matter

In defence of and empathy with Horizon I have to say I understand this completely.

I was in a similar situation. The final dday had left me in once again a situation where I was chasing something that used to be there but no longer wasn't there. My enabling of a damaged person simply gave her the nil respect, audacity and arrogance to step on me at will, time and time again knowing I would rise up from the ashes look at myself as being the problem! and try even harder to please her !!!! 

No doubt she loved it - who wouldn't. No doubt - even though I wasn't the latest shag, the latest 'tremor' I was "still the only man she had ever properly loved" 

Well yeah while I was laying down being full time househusband, part time worker, the platform / rock for her part time easy life of course I was the only love of her life.

The moment the bullet hit me between the eyes (the last dday April 2012) focusing on exactly what she was and exactly what she had put me and my children through over 15 years (ten married) could not be easier.

It's reversed now. Year separated, near to divorce I now treat her with the utter contempt and disrespect she has shown me for nigh on 15 yrs and and she now hates me 

.........but funnily enough now respects me more than ever !! :rofl:

Hahahah


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> Headspin,
> 
> you've got me by the short and curlys. This is the thing. I honestly can't answer your insightful questions, but I'll try.
> 
> I don't know what it is I am seeking from her. Sometimes I sit there, as I did today before taking her to hospital, and look at her and wonder what the hell it is I need from her. Am I that weak? I want to be closer to her or want her somehow or have her want me really badly but it seems out of reach.
> 
> I think it is because the affair put the spotlight so directly on our problems and also brought in this whole new world of problems associated with being deceived that I want her and I hate her. I still on occasion want to shake the sh!t out of her for what I am going through.
> 
> More lately I have thought about not being with her at all purely because I can't escape what has happened - I don't want to be associated with it, I don't want to be that bloke who was cheated on. Think about it, when you are anywhere with family or friends you know something they don't save her best friend and my brother.
> 
> I want to scream it out - "She f**king cheated on me!!!!" but you never do. I truly feel I'm coming to a point, albeit slowly where I just cannot go on with this. I've got this snake in my head, that's tough enough to deal with let alone looking at or sleeping next to the betrayer, it is disorientating beyond words.
> 
> When I push for sex (ever so slightly) and we do it I know I am trying to have some connection and some pleasure but it ends up being oddly unsatisfying even when it's all for me. No oral either, no way, nothing exotic, not yet, she's not ready for that, not at that stage. All said with subtlety but I'm left with the image of her gladly swallowing his you know what three times. I'm not entitled to that just yet. See how sick it has become. I'm thinking all this type of sh!t before during and after.
> 
> At the same time I kind of berate myself for not stepping up and controlling my thinking - being mentally strong and somehow reversing all this mind-speak.
> 
> Maybe I have just been describing "the line" and it's a slo mo dawning, I don't know. Maybe it is the slo mo deal breakere and I'm just getting up to speed.
> 
> I am wondering now how long this "condition" will last. I do wonder every day what it is about her that keeps me there. *I think the truth is that I am so hopelessly dependent that I know no other way. That I've unwittingly always been like this in my relationships.*
> 
> *It's a tough learning curve but it has shown me how emasculated I have allowed myself to become.* Right now I wish I could up and leave - say for 2 weeks. I do have a contact who might be able to give me a room. then I think - sh!t, what if she actually likes it and completely flicks me - "you brought it on yourself". See I'm in a weak place.
> 
> And nothing's going to happen for two months while she'd recovering from her operation anyway. But I do have an option with the room, I can still whip around and do my Dad thing. *I guess the potential for finality scares me and being replaced by some better alpha male is a bit freaky. But you could argue that it is only replacing one discomfort zone with another.*
> 
> Getting close to decision time I think.





Horizon said:


> Thanks a million NM, you made me feel better. It's been a very mixed bag of emotions. *I have been putting myself down - to be honest I have hated aspects of myself for most of my life. Probably a bi-product of the abuse I endured particularly the mental abuse.
> *
> I* think that I like many people live with a need to destroy themselves while trying desperately to put on that mask each day. It's fake - you don't really know who you are or what you want.* I'm guessing other people in my boat have experienced the same feeling. I've been dealing with this for decades.
> 
> You can imagine the havoc it brings to personal relationships and health.
> 
> *Anyway I believe that a relationship for people like me is an essential security blanket and a place to settle on that elusive identity we want so bad. And we tend to gravitate to strong women (shoot all the women I have ever known have been more together than me) to mother us because that was missing earlier in life. We want them to be both mother & father. Not conductive to a healthy partnership if the other one also has their own significant issues.*
> 
> So you can see how breaking away is so daunting. I wonder if others here who have not had a troubled upbringing have any clue what is like to be dogged 24/7 by insecurity.
> 
> I do have a question - is it really possible to regain that passion with your WS; the highly charged, no holds barred physical relationship you once enjoyed? I have already stated that she is just doing the physical to please me even though we are both enjoying the "connection" that it brings - nice words & feelings.
> 
> Despite this, after 2 months since DDay I feel that she is not really into me. That's what it amounts to - the awful "ILYBINILWY". Not stated bu kind of apparent and hence the places she wont go to. Or am I too keen to get back something that is long gone?





Horizon said:


> Spot on - she has always had a problem with dominant men (her father). I have always wondered if she found sex to be a way to control men. Apparently she used to reel them in before my term - knocked off quite a few. Who hasn't I guess and yet another what if / maybe mind f**k diversion. *Must learn to focus on what i do know.*
> 
> Wazza, you nailed it - she's the control freak!!!! I*'m this dude who appears to be a control freak but in reality has been cast that way because I have been trying for years to reign in her "wayward" persona. I have been turned into a control freak.*
> 
> Will you pls cut back on your drinking - NO
> Will you stop frivoulous spending!!!! - NO
> Will you stop throwing recycled waste in the regular bin - NO
> Will you stop ripping off clothing label plastic tags and discarding them throughout the house - NO
> Will you rinse off congealed food on plates before loading the dishwasher - NO
> Will you stop splashing your empty coffee cup into the sink sending coffee everywhere - NO
> Can you stop leaving the kitchen like a war zone after you cook - NO
> Will you stop bringing home "gifts" for the children even the most insignificant "freebee" from work - NO
> Will you stop rewarding the children for no effort just because it makes you feel better - NO
> Will you stop buying the BS sports drinks after sport and let them drink water - NO....
> Can we have sex tonight? - NO!!!! (deliberate attempt at humor)
> 
> (this list may seem petty but it's fact - maybe it's normal sh!t. I don't think so. She's a bit of a slob and I hate clutter)
> 
> And yes W07, she is concerned that I will smash her until the end of time with the A - the sword of Damocles. And based on what I have read on TAM how do you avoid that anyway. An affair is the gift of pain that just keeps giving.
> 
> Yes, this is her controlling it. Justification, arguing, anger, "you're destroying us"...etc it's all in fact a rear guard maneuvre designed to take back the lost ground - to control it.
> 
> What did you mean by the hard yes/no discussion?


Dear Horizon,

I think it is finally sinking in. Your biggest problem is not your wayward partner, it is you -- your insecurity, your dependence on her, your fear of the future. Once you realize this, you must also realize that there is only one solution -- to change yourself.

This means confronting that which makes you insecure and overcoming your fears and, most importantly, becoming truly independent (which means getting a full time job, even if it's only something that pays for the basics in life).

Until you do this, you will be forever stuck where you are. Once you do it, opportunities that you never imagined will open up to you. You may actually be able to salvage your "marriage" or you may find that you no longer need it, but you will finally start living the life that you deserve.

You say that your wayward partner has turned you into a control freak. Good. Start controlling the things that really matter.

Hoping you can take the next step.


P.S.: It wouldn't hurt to consult an attorney about your rights in case you and your partner eventually separate. Your situation is complicated by the fact that you are not legally married. If you were, and given that she is the primary income earner, you would likely be entitled to some degree on ongoing financial support. You might still be. You need to know this.


----------



## Horizon

Carmen ohio,

i appreciate you feedback but I wish it were as easy as just wanting to change.

It seems like everything makes me insecure, my fears are just about everything on some level. This must be really annoying for you and others to read. But it is the truth.

Somehow all of my early experiences & traumas have lead me to this time and place where the blinkers have come off due to the most traumatic event in my life. I understand much more what is going on with me but doing something about it is a massive challenge particularly given the restraints.

Let me give you the latest example. My WS/WP is recovering from surgery and will return to work tomorrow after three days off. Her recovery includes the use of crutches for six weeks. So there is a little more responsibility for me - sort of nursing to some degree (she can't just bounce out of her chair and get a coffee for example or race upstairs when the kids call)

In the meantime she is being headhunted by other companies because her skills are highly sought after. She is looking at going into a much higher pay bracket with a national management position if she accepts the gig. Great for us but....

She would have to travel interstate for a couple of nights each month and be in the USA for ten days each year. When I heard this
after the job interview my thought wasn't wow! extra 40 grand a year, my thought was how long will it be before she hooks up with some POS either interstate or OS.

That became the reverberating focus for the rest of this afternoon - still is. It's a chronic condition. This whole thing has been going on for more than sixty days. I don't need this but I have children who need to be brought up who need to be guided into adulthood by my constant presence. That foundation must not be rocked as mine was.

When you are so f**ked like this it is really difficult to turn it around let alone know exactly what and how to turn it around. I'm talking about doing something for me that will fix me.

I have been looking for full-time work everyday for 3 weeks now. Guess what the problem is. I can't get to these places when they want me to start. I have to drop the children at school, there is no one else to do it. Afternoons are OK but I have got a 6pm deadline to get my son from after school care. 

On top of this my son is really resisting ASC. He doesn't like them and they are increasingly frustrated with him especially since they doubled their numbers this year. He no longer gets the one on one he had. And because he gets to walk home on Fridays instead of doing ASC he is pushing hard to be pulled out altogether.

I'm stuck until he is twelve or my partner pulls this gig which is thankfully much closer and would allow her to do school drop offs again like she used to.

I am still seeing the psychologist but lately I've been thinking that I know a heap more than this bloke; nice bloke that he is and good to bounce stuff off. So I'm not giving up but it I'm really hamstrung by circumstances.

Still looking


----------



## Horizon

The pain of being cheated on, looking into her eyes and knowing that this the same woman but now profoundly different is doing my head in.

Today I am having, as we say here in OZ, a "shocker". When she said 10 days in the USA I said "Jesus, 10 days eh?". I felt weak as dish water showing even that that bothered me. Everything is tainted now. I could once utter those words and it would not have anywhere near the load it now carries. It's a really f**ked up day - how could she leave me in this state? I don't want to feel like this - I have had enough!!!!


----------



## Horizon

I'm having an absolute "shocker" today - how could she condemn me to this state. I feel like I have been pulled inside out. It is only 2 months since DDay - I have had ENOUGH!!!!


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## happyman64

So look in the mirror and tell yourself you have had enough....

Only you can change this situation.

Frank fully I would love for her to take the new job. Encourage her to do so.

But t the same Ike you keep looking for a job as well.

Because the sooner she realizes you are making life altering decisions for yourself will be the day she comprehends " oh crap, Horizon is not including me nor the kids in his future" and he really means it.

Only then will she respect you. So focus on you. Not her. Not the kids. At this point in time they are just excuses.

For you.

Try it. Show her the real you. The new you that is actually the old you that she fell in love with.

I think you will find the results interesting.

And stop worrying about future OM there or in the US.

You cannot control her. You can only control you.
but as soon as she realizes Mr Plan B is making his own plans you will see her react......

Go or it.

HM


----------



## just got it 55

Horizon said:


> I'm having an absolute "shocker" today - how could she condemn me to this state. I feel like I have been pulled inside out. It is only 2 months since DDay - I have had ENOUGH!!!!


Horizon .. I know your first concern is about your children. I fully understand that I have 4 so I am somewhat of an expert on that. However for you to be: 

1st The best Father you can be

2nd The Best Husband you can be

You need to be the best you can be

When you are on an airplane the first thing they tell you in case of emergency to put the O2 mask on you first. The same exact thing here applies. I had some issues of my own that needed resolution. When I accomplished that it’s amazing the clarity that comes with it.You must work on these issues .You clearly have a few .You are aware what they are I will not condescend to tell you .Otherwise you are working backwards


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Horizon said:


> That became the reverberating focus for the rest of this afternoon - still is. It's a chronic condition. This whole thing has been going on for more than sixty days. I don't need this but I have children who need to be brought up who need to be guided into adulthood by my constant presence. *That foundation must not be rocked as mine was.*


Until you are willing to end things, nothing will change. I bet that she knows this (even if only subconsciously). So she knows you will stick, regardless of her behavior. Thus, what is her incentive to change?

Much of the rest of your post is an excuse as to why you can't change. So it is up to you whether you want to be shackled by your past, or want to start the process of being the man you want to be.


----------



## Racer

I finally decided to read through your thread Horizon.. Man, I feel for you. My WW was the same sort of way. 

Couple things that help. Start researching rape survivors. Control is a huge issue for them. It crops up everywhere. It will always be that way if it’s ingrained enough. Losing control of any situation IS a huge anxiety. Bet you noticed her rather panicky ways when you hold your ground. That is now your primary weapon. Use her issues against her.

Detach... Over and over people keep trying to tell you that. Her control over you is an illusion. When it really comes down to it, the only power one has in any relationship is the power to end it. She can’t force you to do what you aren’t willing to, nor can you do that for her. Doesn’t matter whether its logical or not, it just works like that. You must detach if you are ever going to get this to work. She must lose all control. She must understand ‘wanting something’ and ‘working for it’ are the only things that work now. You can not listen to her demands. 

Right now, she is making demands. Why? She feels entitled. Crush it. The only reason she feels entitled is that fantasy of ‘what a good spouse should be doing’ that YOU BELIEVE IN. That is why this works. You won’t go against your belief system of a good man. I was like that... before I learned and got crushed again. She will always feel entitled that you “owe” her this or that just because that “is how it is supposed to be” and the “kind of man” she knows you are. That is also why she won’t leave. You are a good man and put up with it because of your own beliefs. You allow her. You make excuses for her. If this was a girlfriend or buddy, would you tolerate any of this?

Welcome to the dark side. If you can stop caring what she thinks, or what she might do, you will be much better off. Start thinking “My Life”. Not ‘ours’ or ‘hers’. Start planning your life and living it how you think it should be. She is a leach on your life and while sometimes enjoyable, for the most part think of her as sharing a part you want her to share.. That distance you’ll gain will absolve your fear of her or any ramifications she might throw your way. That distance will help you stop those questions about it all in your head because you just don’t care because that was another life when you were in a relationship and cared about such things like what she wanted out of life. That distance allows you to make very deliberate choices that are in your interest; She won’t even be a consideration. Cut that emotional hose... gnaw it off if you must... it just has to go away.

It’s scary. But you cannot push this leach away so easily; That is a issue she has, the fear of losing. She knows you are a good man, but is only looking at how you might fill the rest of that cup for her. (Hence the demands) If you empty the cup, she will see a lot more empty. And panic/anxiety strikes. She recognizes she has no power left. And, with encouragement from you, she knows exactly how she lost it all. She crossed those lines. Push her down the well of her own fears and insecurities... You know she must find new coping skills to deal with all of it, because her old ones of beating you down and blaming you for her life suck. Do not let her be a victim... continue to remind her she is the villain in this story. Remove yourself from her and leave her with only that reflection in the mirror left to blame for how her life turned out like this. 

Start detaching... Surely by now you feel the insanity it causes by actually “caring” what the hell she thinks and feels. You’ll know when you hit that point too... I can only describe it as “finding peace”. Then you are truly free to say and do whatever might shock this person you love into reality where you do not treat others that way.


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## ArmyofJuan

Everyone is right, she is not going to change until you change. 

You need to get to a place where you can walk away from her without fear. To do this you need to plan a future life without her. Look up the D laws, talk to a lawyer about rights (assuming you haven’t already), think about where you would like to live, what kind of things you’d like to do that you don’t now because you are M, ect. Even what kind of traits you want in another woman.

You can put a stop to all of this, just throw in the towel and stop working on the M. Stop caring about what she is doing and assume it’s all coming to an end anyway. You’ll be surprised how much effort she’ll put into the M once she sees you give up on her. The only way to get her to chase you is to walk away.


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## KanDo

Horizon,
please man-up. Nobody but you can change your situation. What message are you sending to your children about what a family should be by staying and being a doormat? 

Life will work out. 

1) show her you are not OK with this behavior by filing for divorce. I think i read it takes a year in OZ anyway

2) Get a job! Stop worrying about the kids. They are her problem as well. Seek child support and look at even hiring someone to drive them. After you are in the job and doing well you could negotiate a late start 2-3 days a week and then your are golden

3) I said it before; but, respect yourself


----------



## awake1

Horizon said:


> Carmen ohio,
> 
> i appreciate you feedback but I wish it were as easy as just wanting to change.
> 
> It seems like everything makes me insecure, my fears are just about everything on some level. This must be really annoying for you and others to read. But it is the truth.)


You and I, are twins separated at birth. Your current problems are those im working through, one by damn one. It's normal for us. There's minor differences of course, but the theme is the same.

It starts with realizing you are worth changing. 

The pain of taking control is nothing compared to the pain of being a victim. 



Horizon said:


> Somehow all of my early experiences & traumas have lead me to this time and place where the blinkers have come off due to the most traumatic event in my life. I understand much more what is going on with me but doing something about it is a massive challenge particularly given the restraints.


Exactly. You see the pattern, you see yourself but you feel powerless to stop it. Before I actually began to change things, I would tell my ww "you're going to do this after I do this" and she would, and I would. The pattern was obvious. 

Once you recognize the pattern you can stop it. You will, like me. I said the same things to myself. 





Horizon said:


> Let me give you the latest example. My WS/WP is recovering from surgery and will return to work tomorrow after three days off. Her recovery includes the use of crutches for six weeks. So there is a little more responsibility for me - sort of nursing to some degree (she can't just bounce out of her chair and get a coffee for example or race upstairs when the kids call)
> 
> In the meantime she is being headhunted by other companies because her skills are highly sought after. She is looking at going into a much higher pay bracket with a national management position if she accepts the gig. Great for us but....
> 
> She would have to travel interstate for a couple of nights each month and be in the USA for ten days each year. When I heard this
> after the job interview my thought wasn't wow! extra 40 grand a year, my thought was how long will it be before she hooks up with some POS either interstate or OS.


This is a chance for you to say "I don't trust you in the USA, or overnight anywhere." Voice your concern. Do it fast without thinking. Even if you end up back pedaling, it's a start.




Horizon said:


> That became the reverberating focus for the rest of this afternoon - still is. It's a chronic condition. This whole thing has been going on for more than sixty days. I don't need this but I have children who need to be brought up who need to be guided into adulthood by my constant presence. That foundation must not be rocked as mine was.
> 
> When you are so f**ked like this it is really difficult to turn it around let alone know exactly what and how to turn it around. I'm talking about doing something for me that will fix me.


You have read no more mr nice guy right? There are many exercises in it that aren't just for you.

Your problem? You just aren't selfish enough. 

You are too kind, too caring, too good for everyone BUT you. Why don't you like yourself? What message does that send to kids? To the world? 


Horizon said:


> I have been looking for full-time work everyday for 3 weeks now. Guess what the problem is. I can't get to these places when they want me to start. I have to drop the children at school, there is no one else to do it. Afternoons are OK but I have got a 6pm deadline to get my son from after school care.
> 
> On top of this my son is really resisting ASC. He doesn't like them and they are increasingly frustrated with him especially since they doubled their numbers this year. He no longer gets the one on one he had. And because he gets to walk home on Fridays instead of doing ASC he is pushing hard to be pulled out altogether.
> 
> I'm stuck until he is twelve or my partner pulls this gig which is thankfully much closer and would allow her to do school drop offs again like she used to.
> 
> I am still seeing the psychologist but lately I've been thinking that I know a heap more than this bloke; nice bloke that he is and good to bounce stuff off. So I'm not giving up but it I'm really hamstrung by circumstances.
> 
> Still looking



This is how things have unfolded for me, and my opinion on it: 


Things happen to people where they stop caring about themselves. They put others first, always. Whether it's kids or mortgages or spouses. 

They get used to coming last. When they discover their #1 spouse isn't happy with them it upsets the status quo. Some of us react with fear. "If I'm not good enough for this person who is a lying abusive mean person, then I must not be good for anyone." 

But when they get that bucket of ice water on them, there's cracks that show up in their world view.

Some put putty over that crack, so they can go back to the way things were. Others make that crack bigger, and let it shatter so they can really see what's there. Many don't like what they see. 

You convinced yourself you cannot live without her. Because it's easier to stay with her than leave. You compromised your life to make it easy. Do not stay for kids or ease or because of the status quo. Stay because you want to. 

There is no epiphany to be had. There is only constant improvement, forever. There aren't any signs or road marks to tell you "you're there". There is only "I am up to the task" that is all there is to it. When you learn and believe you are capable, that you're up to the task, that's it. Then comes acting on it.

Imagine what your future you, a better you, would do. Then do it.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Hey Horizon, hope you're hanging in there, just wanted to check you got my PM, it isn't showing in my sent messages so wondered if I messed it up heh.

Oh and get your focus onto yourself. Forget what you instinctively feel you owe her and instead start to see what you in fact owe yourself.

It isn't selfish to want to be happy.
It isn't selfish to realise you are worthy.

our past affects us deeply but we can choose to no longer be a victim and instead be a survivor of those experience.


----------



## Horizon

Northern Monkey said:


> Hey Horizon, hope you're hanging in there, just wanted to check you got my PM, it isn't showing in my sent messages so wondered if I messed it up heh.
> 
> Oh and get your focus onto yourself. Forget what you instinctively feel you owe her and instead start to see what you in fact owe yourself.
> 
> It isn't selfish to want to be happy.
> It isn't selfish to realise you are worthy.
> 
> our past affects us deeply but we can choose to no longer be a victim and instead be a survivor of those experience.


Yeah got it NM thanks a million- will get back to you. Thanks everyone, got to fly


----------



## Headspin

awake1 said:


> You and I, are twins separated at birth.......
> 
> But when they get that bucket of ice water on them, there's cracks that show up in their world view.
> 
> Some put putty over that crack, so they can go back to the way things were. Others make that crack bigger, and let it shatter so they can really see what's there. Many don't like what they see.
> 
> You convinced yourself you cannot live without her. Because it's easier to stay with her than leave. You compromised your life to make it easy.....


Me too

Some good points here Horizon

The compromise idea is the one that always keeps us enablers in it. Compromise is a bit like 'the force' hidden away pulled out every now and again to maintain the healthy status quot. 

It's the prevailing pattern of ones life. You get compromise so you give it and life can be great when this is a healthy balance. 

But the moment the cheat / serial cheat gets their life running nice and cosy around the life you give them then it's the inevitable road to ruin. The balance is upset, you compromise more and more she / he _takes_ more and more - you sense it's wrong, there's a rupture there but you don't want to open the fissure for fear of finding out the true extent of it all so what do you do ? - you keep going through the door labelled 'doormat' 

You become 'pathetic' in the cheats eyes, because you're actually giving up, not fighting and are indeed pathetic and so her respect for you reaches rock bottom - that's when they kick you when you are already down.
(That's why reconciliation is so difficult because they have to look inwardly at themselves and see / know how twisted devious and selfish they have become and they then have to admit that and that is not easy .......so most don't / can't and that is why reconciliation often collapses)

Like awake1 says you stay because it's easier to not rock the boat. It's a terrible place to be Horizon and a true hallmark of what the wayward spouse has done to you over time and even now.

At some point you will start to understand there is a 'you' in this world, singular not attached to anybody. Look at it this way 

You like all of us, came into this world alone, and we are all going out alone at the end.
In-between you 'choose' to loan out a major part of you to be shared in a healthy balance with other humans.

I'm not young (58) and I now realize after three major relationships that _I am still here_ whilst the others have gone. Through my naivety and ability to take on 'broken wings' / mentally damaged woman I ended up 'damaged ' if you like, myself - I 'repaired' myself each time to go forwards.

I'm doing the same now I'm repairing myself by actually for the first time being selfish, considering myself my wellbeing above all others. I see that if I am 'well' firing on all cylinders then I am in the best place to care and look out for my children who live with me for 4 days a week.

I realize I spent most of my waking life before caring, looking out, for the third child in my marriage my stbxw 

I know I am 'damaged goods' in terms of another relationship because I'll never go near another person with 'issues' again, not severe ones anyway, but frankly that is the last thing I'm worried about right now. If the right person for me appears then great but I've learned I'd rather be content / not euphorically happy alone rather than ecstatically happy or 'ecstatically' annihilated regularly by some fruit cake who lives only for themselves. 

______

At some point you will get through. One way or another and then ironically you will get very very angry - 
at yourself for allowing the cycle to continue. you'll look back on these days with some humour and irony about how you ever found yourself being in this position 

Don't compromise any more Horizon


----------



## Horizon

I am posting this section of an e-mail that my WP sent to the ahole snake in March this year. This was in response to his last ditch attempt, via e-mail earlier that day same day, to get some more "action". (yes, i said I wouldn't post any more but I couldn't help myself - I'm like my WP, I'm just human and I make mistakes)

read on....

"I understand what you are saying, but as I have said before, I got way, way too close to you, to the point where I seriously thought about where we could go with it. Whilst I love the idea of being able to touch you and play with you, I can't go back there, because there would come a time where it would have to end or we would be found out. I don't need that in my life right now.
I need it to be all or nothing, unfortunately we can't have it all - so it needs to be nothing. It is not just to do with *****(his wife) and you know that - I just can't have part of you only."

After I dismantled this as an example of the depth of their connection, which had begun as an EA in March 2012, she responded to me this way....(note: in the 2nd paragraph she is referring to the fact that he had pasted her "just flirting" message from March 2012. It said to him - "You do know how much I love you. Don't you". He pasted this as a leader into his e-mail this March 2013, which prompted her reply above. I thought she had said that to him in March 2013 which was incorrect (does it really matter????)

Anyway here is her classic cheaters reassurance to me the BS....

"Again, you can’t get in my head and you are putting your own spin on it. 

If you look at the date that I sent it, it was back in March 2012!!! At which point (before the PA) it was all email contact and as explained to you, it was in response to what he had said!!! Check it for yourself. (all I had was the date - I don't have the EA emails or texts from back then)

He forwarded it back to me in March this year telling me he loved me to which I then put him off. I didn’t offer him a chance, but I wasn’t cruel and made out that “oh well if we can’t have it all, we can’t have anything” he was more than prepared to take whatever he could get, but I put him off. Probably not the way you would have, but again, he had made me feel good about myself and I didn’t want to hurt him.

I have to say again, if you are really keen for us to work through this, you need to delete all emails (as I have) and stop referring to them. I can only think that you keep them to keep throwing them in my face."

For all of you in anyway in this early post DDay boat - this is the sort of sick rationalisation, smokescreen, rugs weeping and minimising that is played out. It is treacle thick and it keeps coming, even after the words stop and you are just inhaling the residue. 

Yes, their PA was well over, even though she continued to encourage the "chase" via texts up to March 2013, but she will not admit to any passion on any level. She will not admit that she enjoyed the PA on any level. There was no intensity (sure).

And this is something I share with all of you who only get part of the story. It is obvious she was getting off on the EA & the PA. As if you go down on someone, let them go down on you and penetrate you multiple times and it all happens in a stimulation free vacuum. 

It is not humanly possible unless you are a "get on with it" prostitute. But this is a story that she continues to sell. There are other much angrier e-mails from her to me, full of vim and vigor denouncing my refusal to believe otherwise.

Based on my experiences it is clear the cheaters believe their own crap and expect you to believe it as well. And guess what? If you can't handle the lies because you never get closure and you decide to leave - then the story is spun that you left. Watch out cuckolds!


----------



## Horizon

This was her way of letting him down gently because it was the least he deserved. She need him to feel good about himself even though she was finally bringing it to a close. She still has the hooks into him though. Think about "Whilst I love the idea of....". How the hell do I know what will happen if they just happen to "bump" into each other some time? Even years from now. What if I finally run into him some day? (hopefully while I'm driving). Yes, the pain that keeps on giving.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> Carmen ohio,
> 
> i appreciate you feedback but I wish it were as easy as just wanting to change.
> 
> It seems like everything makes me insecure, my fears are just about everything on some level. This must be really annoying for you and others to read. But it is the truth.
> 
> Somehow all of my early experiences & traumas have lead me to this time and place where the blinkers have come off due to the most traumatic event in my life. I understand much more what is going on with me but doing something about it is a massive challenge particularly given the restraints.
> 
> Let me give you the latest example. My WS/WP is recovering from surgery and will return to work tomorrow after three days off. Her recovery includes the use of crutches for six weeks. So there is a little more responsibility for me - sort of nursing to some degree (she can't just bounce out of her chair and get a coffee for example or race upstairs when the kids call)
> 
> In the meantime she is being headhunted by other companies because her skills are highly sought after. She is looking at going into a much higher pay bracket with a national management position if she accepts the gig. Great for us but....
> 
> She would have to travel interstate for a couple of nights each month and be in the USA for ten days each year. When I heard this
> after the job interview my thought wasn't wow! extra 40 grand a year, my thought was how long will it be before she hooks up with some POS either interstate or OS.
> 
> That became the reverberating focus for the rest of this afternoon - still is. It's a chronic condition. This whole thing has been going on for more than sixty days. I don't need this but I have children who need to be brought up who need to be guided into adulthood by my constant presence. That foundation must not be rocked as mine was.
> 
> When you are so f**ked like this it is really difficult to turn it around let alone know exactly what and how to turn it around. I'm talking about doing something for me that will fix me.
> 
> I have been looking for full-time work everyday for 3 weeks now. Guess what the problem is. I can't get to these places when they want me to start. I have to drop the children at school, there is no one else to do it. Afternoons are OK but I have got a 6pm deadline to get my son from after school care.
> 
> On top of this my son is really resisting ASC. He doesn't like them and they are increasingly frustrated with him especially since they doubled their numbers this year. He no longer gets the one on one he had. And because he gets to walk home on Fridays instead of doing ASC he is pushing hard to be pulled out altogether.
> 
> I'm stuck until he is twelve or my partner pulls this gig which is thankfully much closer and would allow her to do school drop offs again like she used to.
> 
> I am still seeing the psychologist but lately I've been thinking that I know a heap more than this bloke; nice bloke that he is and good to bounce stuff off. So I'm not giving up but it I'm really hamstrung by circumstances.
> 
> Still looking


Dear Horizon,

I'm not saying it's easy; I know it's not. But you don't have to change everything at once. Write down 10 things you can do to change your life for the better, order them from easiest to hardest, then do the easiest, then the next easiest, etc. The point is to start. Once you do that, things _will_ start to get "easier."

You say everything makes you insecure. Well, guess what, most people are like that to one degree or another. But you are an intelligent human being who can learn to overcome you insecurities. You _must_ do this if you want to improve yourself and for your children's sake.

Regarding your WP's potential job change, your thinking is all wrong. Rather than focusing on what it means for her (more money, more hook-ups), think about what it means for you. For example, if it means that she will have even less time to help care for your children, then you need to tell her that, if she changes jobs, she will have to arrange for any additional child care required since you plan on working full-time.

Right now, you should be focused on what will improve you, not on her or what might improve her. You need to gain some independence and that means getting a full time job. I understand and admire your commitment to your children but you can't let that stand in your way. In the long run, they will be far better off if they have a happy, successful father than a sullen, broken one.

Have you done any of the things I've recommended: taking steps to improve your health; reading NMMNG; contacting Al-Anon to get your kids and yourself some help in how to deal with your partner's drinking problem; arranging to speak to an attorney about your quasi-marital legal rights?

These are things you can do that take a minimal amount of effort but that will pay off in a better life for you and your kids. Start doing them -- now.

BTW, I don't get annoyed hearing you describe your fears and insecurities but must admit being troubled by the fact that you seem mostly just to complain about them. Maybe I'm wrong and you are making progress. If so, I apologize for getting on your case but, until you start reciting the progress you are making, I will continue to be a nudje.

Stop thinking about all your problems and start doing something about them, even if it only involves something small.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> This was her way of letting him down gently because it was the least he deserved. She need him to feel good about himself even though she was finally bringing it to a close. She still has the hooks into him though. Think about "Whilst I love the idea of....". How the hell do I know what will happen if they just happen to "bump" into each other some time? Even years from now. What if I finally run into him some day? (hopefully while I'm driving). Yes, the pain that keeps on giving.


Frankly, Horizon, your WP's adultery is not your biggest problem. You are. Get yourself to a place where you have a choice to stay or leave _then_ worry about what to do with her. At the moment, you have no choice but to stay and she knows it, so don't expect any help from her.


----------



## just got it 55

carmen ohio said:


> Frankly, Horizon, your WP's adultery is not your biggest problem. You are. Get yourself to a place where you have a choice to stay or leave _then_ worry about what to do with her. At the moment, you have no choice but to stay and she knows it, so don't expect any help from her.


Exactly correct


----------



## warlock07

> "Again, you can’t get in my head and you are putting your own spin on it. "


You have no other option. You cannot trust her. When she comes up with some honesty on her own without you finding about it, you can probably think about it.



> I can only think that you keep them to keep throwing them in my face.


When you make a point, you are putting your own spin to it. When she says something, it is the truth ? This woman's manipulation has no bounds

Why do you take this humiliation ? 

Tell her you will do whatever it takes to help you heal from her betrayal. She can move out if she is not happy about it .




> he had made me feel good about myself and I didn’t want to hurt him.


How does she make you feel right now ? 

And why do you keep arguing with her ? You need to stop that and do things that make you happy. Why don't you start writing again ?


----------



## lordmayhem

Wow. This woman has absolutely no remorse, continues to rugsweep and engage in trickle truth.


----------



## Horizon

lordmayhem said:


> Wow. This woman has absolutely no remorse, continues to rugsweep and engage in trickle truth.


I'll take the bottom three boxes in the right column thanks


----------



## Racer

Horizon... Mine did the entire right column and then some. We are in R, it is working now.

But to get there, you need to detach so you are willing to divorce. Hell, I got to the point where I felt my staying was more of a punishment for her than a divorce.


----------



## Horizon

She is so silent - so terribly silent. I mean even if there is the potential for me to be a bit explosive surely silence is not the way.

We are both walking on eggshells.

I e-mailed her some stuff from the Women's Infidelity book link. I really thought she would find it useful (it helped me a bit to understand the stages a woman goes through). Wrong! She protested and expressed concern that I was researching something that might apply to her situation.

She did not want to be linked with the stages outlined in the book on any level yet clearly her affair behavior as i discovered it is directly aligned with it. She hates to be pigeon holed and just pulls down the shutters.


----------



## warlock07

You don't get it, do you ?


----------



## warlock07

By all means, use TAM to vent. But if you want things to change, you need to change something. The current way off doing things is obviously not working


----------



## Horizon

Yes, yes, yes....I'm now the nurse for the next 6 weeks FARRRRRKKKKK!!!!!!!


----------



## cpacan

warlock07 said:


> You don't get it, do you ?


Stages of the confused betrayed husband - based on own experiences:

1. How could you do this?
2. What the fvck is wrong with me?
3. What the fvck is wrong with her?
4. She doesn't get it - I need to change
5. She's thinking "He's changing, I need to change or he'll replace me with some younger hottie with better attributes than me"'.
6. She seems to change. Is it for real? 
7. Do I still want her?

... I don't know what's next yet, since I haven't arrived yet. My guess is, that Horizon is bouncing between stage 2 and 3. He'll get there eventually.


----------



## awake1

cpacan said:


> Stages of the confused betrayed husband - based on own experiences:
> 
> 1. How could you do this?
> 2. What the fvck is wrong with me?
> 3. What the fvck is wrong with her?
> 4. She doesn't get it - I need to change
> 5. She's thinking "He's changing, I need to change or he'll replace me with some younger hottie with better attributes than me"'.
> 6. She seems to change. Is it for real?
> 7. Do I still want her?
> 
> ... I don't know what's next yet, since I haven't arrived yet. My guess is, that Horizon is bouncing between stage 2 and 3. He'll get there eventually.



Yep thats pretty spot on. Just to expand mine was:

1. How could she? Is this a joke?
2. Holy crap she did!
3. I must be worthless. But i always said id leave if she cheated
4. Where did the old me go? Why didnt i leave? And why is my spine jelly?
5. She doesnt respect me. Neither do i
6. I must change. 
7. I have women hitting on me? This is weird. Hey i dig this self improvement stuff. Who knew i could like me.
8. Wow shes jealous
9. Im ready to bail and now she wants to work it out?
10. Are her changes for real?
11. Do i even want her now? 

Like you im at that last step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

awake1 said:


> Yep thats pretty spot on. Just to expand mine was:
> 
> 1. How could she? Is this a joke?
> 2. Holy crap she did!
> 3. I must be worthless. But i always said id leave if she cheated
> 4. Where did the old me go? Why didnt i leave? And why is my spine jelly?
> 5. She doesnt respect me. Neither do i
> 6. I must change.
> 7. I have women hitting on me? This is weird. Hey i dig this self improvement stuff. Who knew i could like me.
> 8. Wow shes jealous
> 9. Im ready to bail and now she wants to work it out?
> 10. Are her changes for real?
> 11. Do i even want her now?
> 
> Like you im at that last step.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sort of at the last stage as well though. I'm really spending a fair amount of time wondering about apart world but yeah, I'm at 6.


----------



## awake1

Horizon said:


> I'm sort of at the last stage as well though. I'm really spending a fair amount of time wondering about apart world but yeah, I'm at 6.



No more mr nice guy that is the book you need. Wake up neo. The blinders must come off. One thing about being like us: we.re introspective people. That makes self reflection and change easier. I think you have the want: you need the how. That book is the first step. I think it starts with making yourself a priority.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

awake1 said:


> No more mr nice guy that is the book you need. Wake up neo. The blinders must come off. One thing about being like us: we.re introspective people. That makes self reflection and change easier. I think you have the want: you need the how. That book is the first step. I think it starts with making yourself a priority.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man, she has this control over because I let it happen. 3 hours sleep, kept up by a kitten that I wasn't copied on if I wanted it, as we already have a cat & dog. But hey, stupid me mentioned a few weeks ago that I grew up with cats & dogs. "Really, I didn't know that!" - 3 days later mobile rings "Hey, guess what...."

Her body aching from the crutches, me massaging me massively horny - i'm talking cat couldn't scratch it people. 

Drum roll....NO! (that's a gentle no, an i"m tired, wrong time of day NO) - again empty handed. I'm so pissed off I'm not even bothered to "shake hands with the unemployed". So it's 6am and a full day with the children ahead. No point trying to catch some zees. 

"....and I think to myself what a wonderful world" VENT OFF


----------



## Headspin

Look Horizon, With the utmost respect I hate to say this and kinda know, hope, I'm off the mark here but there is something about this, what you say, the way you say it and the wallowing nature of your reactions that are getting me thinking this could be the biggest wind up thread of all time on TAM

Absolutely slap me down anybody and profuse apologies of course assuming I'm in the wrong but does anybody else feel this? :scratchhead:


----------



## Horizon

Headspin said:


> Look Horizon, With the utmost respect I hate to say this and kinda know, hope, I'm off the mark here but there is something about this, what you say, the way you say it and the wallowing nature of your reactions that are getting me thinking this could be the biggest wind up thread of all time on TAM
> 
> Absolutely slap me down anybody and profuse apologies of course assuming I'm in the wrong but does anybody else feel this? :scratchhead:


No wind up Headspin - TAM has been great for me but I have been spinning my wheels half the time. And I have indulged in more than my fair share of dumping / venting.

Having not been in this situation at any time in my life the whole thing has been like a slo mo train wreck - super slo. believe it or not we do love each other it's just that some really nasty sh!t happened over the last 5 years topped off by her affair. 

Our relationship was effectively dead but she has had to accept culpability for her actions. And she is doing that - she has dropped the justification and gaslighting, the attacks on my probing have ceased. It is mainly due to the fact that our feelings are very strong and we are using this as a base to work from. As many of you have pointed out the poisonous atmosphere blocked any possibility of genuine communication.

At this stage and despite all the backward steps & moaning I have posted we are moving fwd. This weekend is the first time since DDay I have seen my partner somewhat comfortable talking (by that I mean without going into defensive overdrive) about us and facing up to my observations and questions about the affair.

But is has taken some work on both sides. So I feel a lot better today but don't worry I am on watch for the rug sweep and she knows it. 

Sorry this has been such a drawn out process - really I needed to wade through a lot of stuff in my head before I felt I could get some type of balance. I accept that this weekend may prove to be a false dawn but my gut feeling is we have turned a corner - a pretty small corner but a corner nonetheless.

PS: No, I have not collapsed in a heap and begged or any thing like that. I'm emotionally in a good space right now - no not vows of undying love but an open channel of communication. We're talking.


----------



## Robsia

Nucking Futs said:


> What would most men do in this situation? Take the job and tell the wife "I got a job, you'll have to get the kids to school." Notice the lack of a question mark there. In this case it really should be "I got a job and I'm moving out, you'll have to get the kids to school."


Childcare is a joint issue, not just the responsibility of one or the other.

His response instead should be. "I have the chance of a job which I intend to take, but WE need to sort out a way of getting the kids to school."

You don't want him going from eunuch to Neanderthal and the kids getting stuck in the middle.


----------



## BobSimmons

Headspin said:


> Look Horizon, With the utmost respect I hate to say this and kinda know, hope, I'm off the mark here but there is something about this, what you say, the way you say it and the wallowing nature of your reactions that are getting me thinking this could be the biggest wind up thread of all time on TAM
> 
> Absolutely slap me down anybody and profuse apologies of course assuming I'm in the wrong but does anybody else feel this? :scratchhead:


oh you think  I'll see you at page 210, it will be the same old same old


----------



## Nucking Futs

Robsia said:


> Childcare is a joint issue, not just the responsibility of one or the other.
> 
> His response instead should be. "I have the chance of a job which I intend to take, but WE need to sort out a way of getting the kids to school."
> 
> You don't want him going from eunuch to Neanderthal and the kids getting stuck in the middle.


That depends on what your goals are. If you're looking to amicably divorce and coparent then I agree with you. If you're goal is to shake her out of her complacency then dumping the day to day operational stuff on her will be more helpful. His ws needs to fully understand what she's giving up, and him being there to take care of logistics for her is one of the things she's giving up.


----------



## Robsia

Nucking Futs said:


> That depends on what your goals are. If you're looking to amicably divorce and coparent then I agree with you. If you're goal is to shake her out of her complacency then dumping the day to day operational stuff on her will be more helpful. His ws needs to fully understand what she's giving up, and him being there to take care of logistics for her is one of the things she's giving up.


Well, I'm talking about in general in a marriage. Right now, he has been the SAHD by mutual choice as I recall, so naturally the childcare has fallen to him, as it would be if she was a SAHM.

But then if a SAHM wanted to go back to work, it would not be unreasonable to expect both parents to take responsibility for arranging childcare, not just the SAHM.

He shouldn't have to turn down a job if they can both juggle their schedules a little to sort out the childcare.


----------



## Chaparral

Horizon said:


> No wind up Headspin - TAM has been great for me but I have been spinning my wheels half the time. And I have indulged in more than my fair share of dumping / venting.
> 
> Having not been in this situation at any time in my life the whole thing has been like a slo mo train wreck - super slo. believe it or not we do love each other it's just that some really nasty sh!t happened over the last 5 years topped off by her affair.
> 
> Our relationship was effectively dead but she has had to accept culpability for her actions. And she is doing that - she has dropped the justification and gaslighting, the attacks on my probing have ceased. It is mainly due to the fact that our feelings are very strong and we are using this as a base to work from. As many of you have pointed out the poisonous atmosphere blocked any possibility of genuine communication.
> 
> At this stage and despite all the backward steps & moaning I have posted we are moving fwd. This weekend is the first time since DDay I have seen my partner somewhat comfortable talking (by that I mean without going into defensive overdrive) about us and facing up to my observations and questions about the affair.
> 
> But is has taken some work on both sides. So I feel a lot better today but don't worry I am on watch for the rug sweep and she knows it.
> 
> Sorry this has been such a drawn out process - really I needed to wade through a lot of stuff in my head before I felt I could get some type of balance. I accept that this weekend may prove to be a false dawn but my gut feeling is we have turned a corner - a pretty small corner but a corner nonetheless.
> 
> PS: No, I have not collapsed in a heap and begged or any thing like that. I'm emotionally in a good space right now - no not vows of undying love but an open channel of communication. We're talking.


The reason your relationship went to hell is because you became a stay at home dad. You have tried to change the laws of mother nature, As Mach just pointed out in another thread, and that is impossible. Mother nature always wins. Your wife is looking for a man and you have assumed the role of a woman. There are many here before you that have tried the same. Jerry says he is now filing for divorce. Once a man does this the pull is very strong to stay a house husband. IDK why, it seems so creepy to me to abandon manhood. It must seem so *** to a woman.

I had to laugh about the excuse of getting the kids to school. You DO realize the whole rest of the country manages to do this every day, right, and how absurd that sounds?

My one question is, when this ends in the inevitable divorce/tragedy for your family. How does a man go about finding another woman to take him in? This really puzzles me.


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> No wind up Headspin - TAM has been great for me but I have been spinning my wheels half the time. And I have indulged in more than my fair share of dumping / venting.
> 
> Having not been in this situation at any time in my life the whole thing has been like a slo mo train wreck - super slo. believe it or not we do love each other it's just that some really nasty sh!t happened over the last 5 years topped off by her affair.
> 
> Our relationship was effectively dead but she has had to accept culpability for her actions. And she is doing that - she has dropped the justification and gaslighting, the attacks on my probing have ceased. It is mainly due to the fact that our feelings are very strong and we are using this as a base to work from. As many of you have pointed out the poisonous atmosphere blocked any possibility of genuine communication.
> 
> At this stage and despite all the backward steps & moaning I have posted we are moving fwd. This weekend is the first time since DDay I have seen my partner somewhat comfortable talking (by that I mean without going into defensive overdrive) about us and facing up to my observations and questions about the affair.
> 
> But is has taken some work on both sides. So I feel a lot better today but don't worry I am on watch for the rug sweep and she knows it.
> 
> Sorry this has been such a drawn out process - really I needed to wade through a lot of stuff in my head before I felt I could get some type of balance. I accept that this weekend may prove to be a false dawn but my gut feeling is we have turned a corner - a pretty small corner but a corner nonetheless.
> 
> PS: No, I have not collapsed in a heap and begged or any thing like that. I'm emotionally in a good space right now - no not vows of undying love but an open channel of communication. We're talking.


No, fair play mate I'll give myself a slap for doubting you - good luck with it all:smthumbup:


----------



## walkonmars

Robsia said:


> Well, I'm talking about in general in a marriage. Right now, he has been the SAHD by mutual choice as I recall, so naturally the childcare has fallen to him, as it would be if she was a SAHM.
> 
> But then if a SAHM wanted to go back to work, it would not be unreasonable to expect both parents to take responsibility for arranging childcare, not just the SAHM.
> 
> He shouldn't have to turn down a job if they can both juggle their schedules a little to sort out the childcare.


Honest communications huh? What a concept!


----------



## Horizon

chapparal said:


> The reason your relationship went to hell is because you became a stay at home dad. You have tried to change the laws of mother nature, As Mach just pointed out in another thread, and that is impossible. Mother nature always wins. Your wife is looking for a man and you have assumed the role of a woman. There are many here before you that have tried the same. Jerry says he is now filing for divorce. Once a man does this the pull is very strong to stay a house husband. IDK why, it seems so creepy to me to abandon manhood. It must seem so *** to a woman.
> 
> I had to laugh about the excuse of getting the kids to school. You DO realize the whole rest of the country manages to do this every day, right, and how absurd that sounds?
> 
> My one question is, when this ends in the inevitable divorce/tragedy for your family. How does a man go about finding another woman to take him in? This really puzzles me.


It started out on the path of SAHD because of 2 main reasons

1: my partner could pull 70k straight up I was on 50k

2: Once both children were in primary school we had to wait for a place in before and after school care, previously they were full time in what we call Day Care. We have no relatives in our area - no one close. We did not have the trust of neighbors who we'd only ever really nodded hello to. It might amaze you but where we lived for 12 years up to our move this year we were only really friends with 3 families. None of them could offer help.

Other neighbors without kids all worked and we didn't really know them anyway. We finally sussed out a mother about half a click away who was able to take them 3 afternoons each week for a small fee (20 bucks per arvo). Not mornings. We put up notices to pay someone - a high school student for example, nothing.

Bottom line was - I took a redundancy after 12 months of massive pressure brought to bear by a new US CEO who's job in OZ was to clean out staff ("Dead wood"). Another story - a common story, but a disgusting and humiliating experience. I got in before the axe fell but not before some very important business relationships were destroyed by this US ahole.

So then I became SAHD while doing whatever part time work I could get my hands on. I agree it does go against the laws of nature. I very much felt it, it's not pretty. But there are massive benefits as well. Our children are awesome and I have witnessed just about every moment of their development thus far.

Downside - became fat and demotivated SAHD. Then Diabetes and depression. Yes, I scored a really steady job driving heavy vehicles part time which lasted 5 years but then redundancy stepped in and ruined my partners job and our set up where she dropped the kids in the morning and I got them in the afternoon. (By then they were both in full time after school care - we could drop the morning part because my partner negotiated a later start by half an hour)

My partner scores an even better role but it's an hour or more away and there is no start time negotiation - but pay jumps to 100k. No argument. I can't do the early starts and we have lost the morning spots at before school care - the waiting list is enormous. But a time will come when this will not be an issue as the kids are more independent - but it will take time.

Am I getting through to you?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> It started out on the path of SAHD because of 2 main reasons
> 
> 1: my partner could pull 70k straight up I was on 50k
> 
> 2: Once both children were in primary school we had to wait for a place in before and after school care, previously they were full time in what we call Day Care. We have no relatives in our area - no one close. We did not have the trust of neighbors who we'd only ever really nodded hello to. It might amaze you but where we lived for 12 years up to our move this year we were only really friends with 3 families. None of them could offer help.
> 
> Other neighbors without kids all worked and we didn't really know them anyway. We finally sussed out a mother about half a click away who was able to take them 3 afternoons each week for a small fee (20 bucks per arvo). Not mornings. We put up notices to pay someone - a high school student for example, nothing.
> 
> Bottom line was - I took a redundancy after 12 months of massive pressure brought to bear by a new US CEO who's job in OZ was to clean out staff ("Dead wood"). Another story - a common story, but a disgusting and humiliating experience. I got in before the axe fell but not before some very important business relationships were destroyed by this US ahole.
> 
> So then I became SAHD while doing whatever part time work I could get my hands on. I agree it does go against the laws of nature. I very much felt it, it's not pretty. But there are massive benefits as well. Our children are awesome and I have witnessed just about every moment of their development thus far.
> 
> Downside - became fat and demotivated SAHD. Then Diabetes and depression. Yes, I scored a really steady job driving heavy vehicles part time which lasted 5 years but then redundancy stepped in and ruined my partners job and our set up where she dropped the kids in the morning and I got them in the afternoon. (By then they were both in full time after school care - we could drop the morning part because my partner negotiated a later start by half an hour)
> 
> My partner scores an even better role but it's an hour or more away and there is no start time negotiation - but pay jumps to 100k. No argument. I can't do the early starts and we have lost the morning spots at before school care - the waiting list is enormous. But a time will come when this will not be an issue as the kids are more independent - but it will take time.
> 
> Am I getting through to you?


Great explanation about how you got to where you are. Now get a damned job and tell your chick that since she wants to act single your going to make her single and these problems are now hers to work out. Get out and give her an opportunity to understand what she's losing.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> *Man, she has this control over because I let it happen. 3 hours sleep, kept up by a kitten that I wasn't copied on if I wanted it* *. . .*


Horizon,

Why in the world would you stay up all night taking care of a kitten that she brought home without even bothering to ask if you wanted it? Do you have some kind of martyr complex?

Have you read NNMNG yet; have you even bought it? Are you serious about improving your life or do you just want to complain about it to a bunch of strangers?

About the only progress I see in you so far is that you now that _you_ let _her_ control _you_. When are you going to stop that?


----------



## carmen ohio

Robsia said:


> Well, I'm talking about in general in a marriage. Right now, he has been the SAHD by mutual choice as I recall, so naturally the childcare has fallen to him, as it would be if she was a SAHM.
> 
> But then if a SAHM wanted to go back to work, it would not be unreasonable to expect both parents to take responsibility for arranging childcare, not just the SAHM.
> 
> *He shouldn't have to turn down a job if they can both juggle their schedules a little to sort out the childcare.*


Robsia,

I would agree with your last statement if you were talking about a healthy marriage. However, Horizon's partner is an unrepentant adulterous and an unregenerate alcoholic. IMO and the opinion of a lot of other TAM folks, the key to improving his life is for him to get a full-time job so that he is no longer financially dependent on her.

Based on this, I think it not only fair but appropriate for Horizon to put his needs first and insist that she assume more childcare responsibilities if and when he finds employment.

Unfortunately, this is probably a purely hypothetical debate since, so far, Horizon has shown little inclination to do anything.


----------



## Robsia

^I understand that. But what about the children?

Is it right to put kids at risk because of their parent's faults? (And I'm making that singular here deliberately.)

What if Horizon says she needs to look after the kids and she tells him where to go? If there were no kids, then he would be well rid. But there are. And they are vulnerable and need looking after.

As a good parent, he has to put his children's needs first. As a responsible parent, would you leave your kids in the care of a known alcoholic who has no desire to take care of them? If I were in his position I would feel the same way. However, were I in his position, I would take my kids and get the hell out.

In fact, I was, and I did, and I found a job that enabled me to work from home and look after my kids as well.


----------



## LostViking

Robsia said:


> ^I understand that. But what about the children?
> 
> Is it right to put kids at risk because of their parent's faults? (And I'm making that singular here deliberately.)
> 
> What if Horizon says she needs to look after the kids and she tells him where to go? If there were no kids, then he would be well rid. But there are. And they are vulnerable and need looking after.
> 
> As a good parent, he has to put his children's needs first. As a responsible parent, would you leave your kids in the care of a known alcoholic who has no desire to take care of them? If I were in his position I would feel the same way. *However, were I in his position, I would take my kids and get the hell out.*
> 
> In fact, I was, and I did, and I found a job that enabled me to work from home and look after my kids as well.


You forget. Hes a man. Men have no rights in the eyes of most courts around the world. If he tried to take those kids and leave all she would have to do is squeal and an Aussie judge, true to form, would have the kids taken back, given to her, and he would be lucky if he got to see them once a month. 

I agree with everything you say in priciple Robsia, unfortunately what is "best" does not line up with reality.


----------



## carmen ohio

Robsia said:


> ^I understand that. But what about the children?
> 
> *Is it right to put kids at risk because of their parent's faults?* (And I'm making that singular here deliberately.)
> 
> What if Horizon says she needs to look after the kids and she tells him where to go? If there were no kids, then he would be well rid. But there are. And they are vulnerable and need looking after.
> 
> *As a good parent, he has to put his children's needs first.* As a responsible parent, *would you leave your kids in the care of a known alcoholic who has no desire to take care of them?* If I were in his position I would feel the same way. However, were I in his position, I would take my kids and get the hell out.
> 
> In fact, I was, and I did, and I found a job that enabled me to work from home and look after my kids as well.


Robsia,

First of all, based upon what Horizon has said about his partner, it seems she loves her kids and is a reasonably good mother. Thus, I don't think he would be putting their safety or emotional development any more at risk by requiring that she become a more active parent than is already the case given that she is an alcoholic. If you read my other posts, you will see that I have repeatedly urged him to get help for his children in dealing with their mother's drinking problem.

I disagree with your statement that to be a good parent "he has to put his children's needs first." While many people in our society seem to have adopted this attitude, I think it is problematic for a number of reasons.

First, healthy people know that their children will be best cared for if they the parent are happy. If you aren't doing what it takes to make yourself happy, the chances are the people around you (especially your children) will suffer. Even Jesus realized that love of self is the correct starting point for the love of others (see Matthew 22:39).

Second, people who actually put others' needs ahead of their own generally do so because they have serious psychological problems. Whether you call it a having "martyr complex" or being a "white knight," as described in Dr. Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy," it's generally a sign of emotional immaturity rather than of strength. Of course, there are notable exceptions, (e.g., Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa) but these exceptions are rather easily recognized.

Third, more often than not, people who claim to be putting their children's needs first are simply using their children as an excuse not to do something that they know they should do instead (Horizon is a perfect example of this -- he can't get a full time job because he is "putting his children's needs first," but meanwhile he ignores the impact his partner's drinking is having on his children).

I think that the best way Horizon can help his children is by addressing his need to be financially independent of his partner. If that means insisting that his partner play a larger part in day-to-day child care, I think that is appropriate. Once he accomplishes this, he will have choices about his life, his relationship with his partner and his children's environment that he doesn't at present and he will, IMO, be better able to care for them.


----------



## Nucking Futs

carmen ohio said:


> Robsia,
> 
> First of all, based upon what Horizon has said about his partner, it seems she loves her kids and is a reasonably good mother. Thus, I don't think he would be putting their safety or emotional development any more at risk by requiring that she become a more active parent than is already the case given that she is an alcoholic. If you read my other posts, you will see that I have repeatedly urged him to get help for his children in dealing with their mother's drinking problem.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that to be a good parent "he has to put his children's needs first." While many people in our society seem to have adopted this attitude, I think it is problematic for a number of reasons.
> 
> First, healthy people know that their children will be best cared for if they the parent are happy. If you aren't doing what it takes to make yourself happy, the chances are the people around you (especially your children) will suffer. Even Jesus realized that love of self is the correct starting point for the love of others (see Matthew 22:39).
> 
> Second, people who actually put others' needs ahead of their own generally do so because they have serious psychological problems. Whether you call it a having "martyr complex" or being a "white knight," as described in Dr. Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy," it's generally a sign of emotional immaturity rather than of strength. Of course, there are notable exceptions, (e.g., Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa) but these exceptions are rather easily recognized.
> 
> Third, more often than not, people who claim to be putting their children's needs first are simply using their children as an excuse not to do something that they know they should do instead (Horizon is a perfect example of this -- he can't get a full time job because he is "putting his children's needs first," but meanwhile he ignores the impact his partner's drinking is having on his children).
> 
> I think that the best way Horizon can help his children is by addressing his need to be financially independent of his partner. If that means insisting that his partner play a larger part in day-to-day child care, I think that is appropriate. Once he accomplishes this, he will have choices about his life, his relationship with his partner and his children's environment that he doesn't at present and he will, IMO, be better able to care for them.


Excellent post, I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Horizon

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Why in the world would you stay up all night taking care of a kitten that she brought home without even bothering to ask if you wanted it? Do you have some kind of martyr complex?
> 
> Have you read NNMNG yet; have you even bought it? Are you serious about improving your life or do you just want to complain about it to a bunch of strangers?
> 
> About the only progress I see in you so far is that you now that _you_ let _her_ control _you_. When are you going to stop that?


The cat can now escape the laundry and has developed an affection for me. I wasn't up all night, it just kept meowing at the bedroom door and wanting to sleep on my face. Disrupted night's sleep i meant. WS is on crutches.


----------



## Horizon

OK - since her operation 8 days ago my WS has cut back on her drinking by more than half. She hardly touched it for the first 2 days and then it has settled in at 2-3 drinks a night. This might not seem like much to you but trust me it is a big deal. What is more important is the fact that she is talking about it for the very first time, she is verbalising; recognising she has been drinking too much.

There is a long way to go with this but it has to be baby steps. Whether it stays this way is the question. The other question is - Will she give the bottle away altogether? Highly unlikely IMO. 

Keep in mind that my WS does not get roaring drunk, she is a steady drinker. Our children are not nor have they ever been witness to outright drunkenness. Except for two notable occasions - one 18 months ago and another two years before that as previously stated. 

Not a good look as the incident 18 months ago included another woman's husband (also drunk) trying to subtly (sleazily) take advantage of her inebriation by getting a little too up close and personal in the swimming pool to the point where one of the other children said "is.....Jeff's girlfriend now? 

I sorted him out quick smart and he folded like a deck of cards. It created a massive stink as they are her girlfriends - his wife blamed my WS of course which is a fair enough POV considering my WS was not attempting to stop him when I stepped in. That bloke has since had a stroke and is unable to work and can barely look after himself.

Another thing is my WS has openly stated for the first time that she has been irresponsible with her spending and is cutting back. I have told her that I will keep an eye on it. So we'll see where that ends up. 

MY gut feeling is that she will return to these old habits - if this at some point includes an EA or PA or anything remotely resembling it then it's game over. I have told her this. 

I've still got the VAR going but it doesn't reveal anything other than her taking the odd swipe at me to her work colleague (that was a few weeks ago), but nothing savage. Just general talk about work & girl talk, about blokes occasionally, nothing unusual - most of it from the work colleague re her relationship.

The last seven days have been positive even though I was venting about a few issues, raking over the coals. Still not confident of the outcome but we'll see.

Just on the work children dynamic. With the distance she has to travel to work and the nature of her work there is no way she can make adjustments to get the kids to or from school. She is not neglecting our children, when she is at home she is actively involved in their parenting - crutches and all.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Just on the work children dynamic. With the distance she has to travel to work and the nature of her work there is no way she can make adjustments to get the kids to or from school. She is not neglecting our children, when she is at home she is actively involved in their parenting - crutches and all.


You keep missing the point on this work/childcare issue. I bolded the important part of my post.



Nucking Futs said:


> Great explanation about how you got to where you are. Now get a damned job and tell your chick that since she wants to act single your going to make her single and these problems are now hers to work out. *Get out and give her an opportunity to understand what she's losing.*


I understand you're seeing progress so not going to rock the boat right now, but when she's back on her feet and back to her usual tricks come back to this.


----------



## Michie

SAHD's are awesome Horizon, never let anyone tell you otherwise. A real man is a person who can support the growth and delvopment of another human being is fvucking amazing.

Good luck to you!


----------



## LostViking

Michie said:


> SAHD's are awesome Horizon, never let anyone tell you otherwise. A real man is a person who can support the growth and delvopment of another human being is fvucking amazing.
> 
> Good luck to you!


Yes SAHDs are awesome. 

And ungrateful breadwinning wives who cheat are nightmares from the pit of hell.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon,

You are the yo-yo of TAM. One day you're berating your wayward, drunken partner and the next your making excuses for her. Consider:



Horizon said:


> *OK - since her operation 8 days ago my WS has cut back on her drinking by more than half. She hardly touched it for the first 2 days and then it has settled in at 2-3 drinks a night. This might not seem like much to you but trust me it is a big deal. What is more important is the fact that she is talking about it for the very first time, she is verbalising; recognising she has been drinking too much. [Consuming 2-3 drinks a night is still alcoholic territory. The only way out for an alcoholic is abstinence. You know this. Stop giving yourself false hope that she is getting her drinking "under control."]*
> 
> There is a long way to go with this but it has to be baby steps. Whether it stays this way is the question. The other question is - Will she give the bottle away altogether? Highly unlikely IMO.
> 
> *Keep in mind that my WS does not get roaring drunk, she is a steady drinker. Our children are not nor have they ever been witness to outright drunkenness. Except for two notable occasions - one 18 months ago and another two years before that as previously stated. [Your children witness an adult -- there mother -- drown her problems night after night in alcohol. Don't you know that having an alcoholic parent is one of the main causes of alcoholism. If you truly care about your children, you will do something about this.]*
> 
> Not a good look as the incident 18 months ago included another woman's husband (also drunk) trying to subtly (sleazily) take advantage of her inebriation by getting a little too up close and personal in the swimming pool to the point where one of the other children said "is.....Jeff's girlfriend now?
> 
> I sorted him out quick smart and he folded like a deck of cards. It created a massive stink as they are her girlfriends - his wife blamed my WS of course which is a fair enough POV considering my WS was not attempting to stop him when I stepped in. That bloke has since had a stroke and is unable to work and can barely look after himself.
> 
> Another thing is my WS has openly stated for the first time that she has been irresponsible with her spending and is cutting back. I have told her that I will keep an eye on it. So we'll see where that ends up.
> 
> *MY gut feeling is that she will return to these old habits - if this at some point includes an EA or PA or anything remotely resembling it then it's game over. I have told her this. [How will it be "game over" if you don't have a job that pays your bills? You've been crying for months that you can't leave because she is the main breadwinner in the family. What will be different the next time she cheats?]*
> 
> *I've still got the VAR going but it doesn't reveal anything other than her taking the odd swipe at me to her work colleague (that was a few weeks ago), but nothing savage. Just general talk about work & girl talk, about blokes occasionally, nothing unusual - most of it from the work colleague re her relationship. [A good wife (husband) does not take "swipes" at (his) her spouse, ever. You have become so used to her abuse that you consider it a blessing when she doesn't "savage" you to her colleagues. That's just sad.]*
> 
> *The last seven days have been positive even though I was venting about a few issues, raking over the coals. Still not confident of the outcome but we'll see. [Here's how I see it: the past seven days you've been saying what you feel but, now that you are being called out to for not doing something about your predicament, you start to rugsweep so as to justify your continued inaction.]*
> 
> *Just on the work children dynamic. With the distance she has to travel to work and the nature of her work there is no way she can make adjustments to get the kids to or from school. [So the bottom line is that there is no way you can take a full-time job and become financially independent of her. That's the perfect excuse for doing nothing to help yourself and just continuing to wallow in self-pity.]* She is not neglecting our children, when she is at home she is actively involved in their parenting - crutches and all.


You've got an answer for everything, Horizon, except what you are going to do to get yourself out of the hell of a marriage you complain about. Here's what I said on April 9 in your first thread:

_"I'm sorry but, from what you've told us, your life is a total mess. You are with a lying, cheating alcoholic who has no respect for you and for good reason. *You have no independent means of support so you and your children are totally dependent on her for your well-being.* Why should your WW do anything to fix her marriage? You can give her no reason to because you have nothing to offer her that she couldn't get by hiring a nanny. *You can't even seriously threaten to leave her.
*
*"What you really need to do is to get a life, one in which you can support yourself, start being a proper male role-model for you children and regain your self-respect.* If you do this, you may -- someday -- be in a position to insist that your wayward partner start to get her life in order (which is also a total mess). If you don't, she will eventually dump you because, once she no longer needs a "wife" to help raise her kids, she won't need you.

"I hope you sort out your current marital issues but, even if you do, it will only be temporary. Your alcoholic partner will cheat on you again. So please, don't lose sight of the "big picture" which, in your case, is not a pretty one.

"Good luck to you."_

Here's what you said in response:

_"Wow carmen ohio, you've rocked me. And that's why I'm here. It is so easy to lose sight of everything and I need the heavy hitters to lay it on the line. 

"I've just got back from my first visit to a psychologist. His advice to me in the current state I'm in emotionally was that my Amygdala is flooding me with toxic chemicals and interrupting normal function. Therefore it is essential to counteract these by releasing endorphines - exercise etc.

"He recommended I keep playing it cool, as normal as possible and work on myself. This was at the end of a 50 minute meeting. 

"You are right I'm a bit of a car wreck. *Everything you have said struck home. I have been stupid enough to believe that we would get by on just being under the same roof I suppose,the four of us. I've falsely believed that my role as SAHD was a worthy place.* But the reality is that while I have kept up my side of the bargain in parenting our children my partner has lost all respect for me. 

*"I have no means of self support (home equity borrowing is a last resort) and not for the first time, as I've watched my kids slowly work their way to some type of independence, have I pondered exactly what you have said.* She'll have no need for me. *I have put myself in this boat and I have got to get out. *

"Tell me, do you really think that the relationship is simply not salvageable? Why do you think she will cheat on me again - the same reason she did this time, she has a taste for it now? Is it likely she has done this before? Was the cheating arguably justified then? Sorry to pepper you but your objectivity gives me some reality"_

Sadly, you seemed to have regressed in your thinking. Why is that? Have you looked deep inside and realized that there is no hope there? Or are you simply refusing to do what you know you need to out of fear? There has to be a reason and you need to find out what it is so that you can overcome it.

I'm still hoping you will get your act together some day, I will continue to nag you as long as you post here (unless you ask me to stop) and I still wish you good luck because I, like a lot of other people on TAM, I care about you -- probably more than you wayward partner does.


----------



## Horizon

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon,
> 
> You are the yo-yo of TAM. One day you're berating your wayward, drunken partner and the next your making excuses for her. Consider:
> 
> 
> 
> You've got an answer for everything, Horizon, except what you are going to do to get yourself out of the hell of a marriage you complain about. Here's what I said on April 9 in your first thread:
> 
> _"I'm sorry but, from what you've told us, your life is a total mess. You are with a lying, cheating alcoholic who has no respect for you and for good reason. *You have no independent means of support so you and your children are totally dependent on her for your well-being.* Why should your WW do anything to fix her marriage? You can give her no reason to because you have nothing to offer her that she couldn't get by hiring a nanny. *You can't even seriously threaten to leave her.
> *
> *"What you really need to do is to get a life, one in which you can support yourself, start being a proper male role-model for you children and regain your self-respect.* If you do this, you may -- someday -- be in a position to insist that your wayward partner start to get her life in order (which is also a total mess). If you don't, she will eventually dump you because, once she no longer needs a "wife" to help raise her kids, she won't need you.
> 
> "I hope you sort out your current marital issues but, even if you do, it will only be temporary. Your alcoholic partner will cheat on you again. So please, don't lose sight of the "big picture" which, in your case, is not a pretty one.
> 
> "Good luck to you."_
> 
> Here's what you said in response:
> 
> _"Wow carmen ohio, you've rocked me. And that's why I'm here. It is so easy to lose sight of everything and I need the heavy hitters to lay it on the line.
> 
> "I've just got back from my first visit to a psychologist. His advice to me in the current state I'm in emotionally was that my Amygdala is flooding me with toxic chemicals and interrupting normal function. Therefore it is essential to counteract these by releasing endorphines - exercise etc.
> 
> "He recommended I keep playing it cool, as normal as possible and work on myself. This was at the end of a 50 minute meeting.
> 
> "You are right I'm a bit of a car wreck. *Everything you have said struck home. I have been stupid enough to believe that we would get by on just being under the same roof I suppose,the four of us. I've falsely believed that my role as SAHD was a worthy place.* But the reality is that while I have kept up my side of the bargain in parenting our children my partner has lost all respect for me.
> 
> *"I have no means of self support (home equity borrowing is a last resort) and not for the first time, as I've watched my kids slowly work their way to some type of independence, have I pondered exactly what you have said.* She'll have no need for me. *I have put myself in this boat and I have got to get out. *
> 
> "Tell me, do you really think that the relationship is simply not salvageable? Why do you think she will cheat on me again - the same reason she did this time, she has a taste for it now? Is it likely she has done this before? Was the cheating arguably justified then? Sorry to pepper you but your objectivity gives me some reality"_
> 
> Sadly, you seemed to have regressed in your thinking. Why is that? Have you looked deep inside and realized that there is no hope there? Or are you simply refusing to do what you know you need to out of fear? There has to be a reason and you need to find out what it is so that you can overcome it.
> 
> I'm still hoping you will get your act together some day, I will continue to nag you as long as you post here (unless you ask me to stop) and I still wish you good luck because I, like a lot of other people on TAM, I care about you -- probably more than you wayward partner does.


After I sort myself out maybe I'll meet someone like you Carmen - once I find my spine I mean.


----------



## Horizon

I didn't say thankyou Carmen - so, thankyou. I can take it on the chin. I know it is very frustrating for you and the other supporters here to see the obvious flaws in my posts and watch the wheels spinning.

I'm trying to make this work but it....shoot i can't even think. The bottom line is there's no excuse. I ordered my own copy of NMMNG today.

Let me say one thing - I have now more than at any time in the last 9 weeks regularly considered a life apart from my WS. It's been building over the last few weeks - imagining it, how I could actually do it. I do feel like I am building to that, albeit slowly.

When things feel as though they are improving I want to announce it to some degree - I see it as progress but it's not really progress at all from your perspective. I get that. Until I take my balls back & take action it's all words - I get that as well. 

I've always been a giver, you should have seen me giving to the family this past long weekend. I scaled new heights. Sounds pathetic but there was genuine fun. Still....


----------



## WyshIknew

And the surprise you promised for OMW?


----------



## Horizon

WyshIknew said:


> And the surprise you promised for OMW?


Yes!, that copy of her husbands e-mail to my WS in which he leveraged his own wife as a tool to get into my WS's pants one last time must have hit her like a ton of bricks.

He pushed the "open marriage" line & the great risk he was taking and therefore because the greater risk they both used to take wasn't quite as exciting now with the wife apparently knowing about my WS & him (more BS) to some degree - given all this would my WS like to play some more. Just wanted a f**k, only thing he ever wanted.

What a low life - I'm sure she knows nothing because way back in April when I fronted him I asked him how his W would feel if she knew the graphic details of what he himself told me went on, the pr**k conceded she wouldn't like it. Really? You think so?! 

But no response - I didn't expect any as she has ignored me 3 times before. 

Question: Do people here believe his wife turns a blind eye to this or they do in fact have an open marriage? I believe not, just a gut feeling - lovely teenage kids nice jobs and home. No guarantee I know, but I just don't get that vibe.


----------



## warlock07

What do you think would happen if you asked for an one sided open marriage for the length of time she had the affair ? How do you think she will react ? She already told you that you did not have the affair only because you couldn't. 

Read cpacan thread. He had an interesting outcome


----------



## Headspin

You know how I feel about this horizon but I have been exactly where you are 

- an emasculated, destroyed, who also became a SAHD, husband in love with a a mentally damaged cake eater, and whilst she was not overtly destroying everything and the boat remained unrocked by my co dependence, love support and infinite patience the world trucked on.

I could not make the leap could see only that I was the one who would break it all up and make everyone unhappy.

I did make the break - she was out, gone. I was left financially in ruins trying to look after my two kids 8/9 for 4 nights a week. House would need to be sold give her half and me left wallowing in a sea of shvt whilst OM left his wife for a wonderful life with her.

My kids wanted me to keep our house, their family home . 
I worked from home part time always and really upped my game. 
I put all my work in to the days when I do not have my kids and some on days when I do but as usual I worked around them
OM did not leave his wife! (well well!)
stbx found she had to take out a £10,000 loan to sort her rented accomodation / life out
She lived in a rented small cottage for two months Now lives in a small uncomfortable terr house with kids in one room
Kids and I still live in our big gardened beautiful 300 yr old cottage 
Financially I cut her off completely, even though she still earns at least twice as much as me she now has money problems 
I now earn treble from a year ago. I can afford to keep my house but not yet get a remortgage to pay her off, but that will come 
My kids despite her trying every which way to get more time to even up our time so she can argue better for more money from the house will not go to her for the extra day.
They know what has happened and why and do not want to spend any more time with her 
I do not miss the whole of my life being a lie wondering about the next visit the next new face she might be banging
I do not miss being a SAHD and have this person look at me questioning what I do as I clean up after her **** yet again

If I'm honest I do miss the intimacy of being with someone you feel is part of your very being, the great sex which it was, but that came with a price that no man or woman should have to pay - the complete destruction of a good, loving, honest, human being that is me 

She made me completely forget me as I gave and gave and gave 

Last night my daughter asked me if I was happy? ! I said apart from dealing with the divorce and house and access times which would all be sorted soon then yes I am but in a very different kind of way, an almost relieved way. 
Life is very simple now for us, focused on work to keep the kids as stable and happy as they can be in difficult circumstances. She asked if I would marry again. I said not for the near future and probably not anyway but that is the least of my worries atm. I realize this is a transitional period for me for us and that I have to be fully focused on the basics which are the children then me. 

There is still difficulty stbx is impossible to deal with in an amicable way as she thought she'd wander of over the hill with OM into the land of unicorns and fairies within a month or so. It's all the complete reverse. In fact she's still trying to pull OM from his wife and child a year or so down the line. She's even trying to ingratiate him to my kids which they do not appreciate so that tells you a lot about her and how utterly self centered she is, but at least emotionally I don't have to worry about that, just that my kids are okay.

I'll stop there at the risk of derailment ! but this should show you that the fundamental difference between me 15 months ago and 12 months ago and of course now is that I realized down beneath my stomach I was born with a large pair of balls and they needed to come out and play a much bigger role in my life. They had sat down there for ten years, become redundant other than the obvious and to support the needs of a cake eating selfish bastard who damaged or otherwise chose to hurt my children and me and other families every fking day - every single fking day of our lives 

Once my balls were out on the table in full view everything changed, literally overnight. It will happen to you at some point and it may take some time but you will and can do a lot better horizon. Life can present a different face for all of us and we often cant see how and why that happens, but it does and I'm sure it will for you 

Good Luck


----------



## Northern Monkey

Self respect.
Self worth.

I can understand where you are with these. I was in the very same place 6 months ago.

You need your focus completely on yourself.

Give yourself some respect. Demand it from others. Realise your worth. Be what you can be and stop finding excuses to settle.


----------



## Michie

LostViking said:


> Yes SAHDs are awesome.
> 
> And ungrateful breadwinning wives who cheat are nightmares from the pit of hell.


Ummm yes I agree


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> After I sort myself out maybe I'll meet someone like you Carmen - *once I find my spine* I mean.





Horizon said:


> I didn't say thankyou Carmen - so, thankyou. I can take it on the chin. I know it is very frustrating for you and the other supporters here to see the obvious flaws in my posts and watch the wheels spinning.
> 
> I'm trying to make this work but it....shoot i can't even think. The bottom line is there's no excuse. *I ordered my own copy of NMMNG today.*
> 
> Let me say one thing - *I have now more than at any time in the last 9 weeks regularly considered a life apart from my WS. It's been building over the last few weeks - imagining it, how I could actually do it. I do feel like I am building to that, albeit slowly.*
> 
> *When things feel as though they are improving I want to announce it to some degree - I see it as progress but it's not really progress at all from your perspective.* I get that. Until I take my balls back & take action it's all words - I get that as well.
> 
> I've always been a giver, you should have seen me giving to the family this past long weekend. I scaled new heights. Sounds pathetic but there was genuine fun. Still....


Dear Horizon,

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and consider what I have to say, despite the fact that the way I say it might not be the best. Yah, I guess I have gotten frustrated with what I perceive to be your "lack of progress" but it seems I've either overlooked or not been aware of things you have accomplished: 

- ordering NMMNG is a good start,

- beginning to think about a life apart from your partner is another, and

- continuing to look for gainful employment (which I understand you are doing despite facing difficulties over child care) is a third.

So I agree that you are making progress and I apologize for saying that you've not. What I want is for you to build a new, happier life for yourself and your children (and also for your partner, if she decides to start to deal with her problems). I realize that it will take time and that there will be hills and valleys, and I also realize that you won't do everything according to some schedule laid down by me or anybody else.

So please forgive me for belittling your accomplishments and especially if I have said anything to set you back or cause you to question your self worth. All I can say in my own defense is that my sometimes over-the-top rhetoric is not an indication that I _don't_ care but a reflection of the fact that I _do_.

Don't give up. You will get there. You have it in you. You just need to find it in your own way and time.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks Carmen,

it is a bit scary to consider a life apart but I'm doing this every day now. I've just been reading two books on infidelity - "Infidelity - Exploding the Myths" by Julia Hartley Moore and "Unfaithfully Yours" by Dr Zita Weber. It helps me to know more about the subject, to also see it from the fem perspective and just have something like being on TAM to help get through it. As if I needed to know anymore - right?

It's funny, I actually feel a bit guilty having these thoughts while my WS is working, recovering from her operation and carrying on like all is pretty much normal. But these life apart thoughts persist.

I was chatting to a bloke at the local supermarket this morning, a businessman, who I brought around to the subject of infidelity. Wow, then he went off like a skyrocket.

Turns out he's my age and was cheated on when his 3 kids were a similar age to my 2. This happened back when he had just turned 40 some 15 years earlier. The thing that stood out for me was how adamant he was about leaving his wife.

He said nothing was the same after DDay. He tried for almost a year but it was irretrievable. He could not get past the complete loss of trust and the constant wondering. He's now happy in another relationship as is his ex. The main thing he said was the affect it had on his children - despite best efforts it was a big hurdle for them.

I left him there wondering about that strange feeling you have when you think that things have been placed in your path for enlightenment. The affair to wake me from my psycho / physical slumber, meeting him - like a signal to encourage me to move on.

It all seems to fit somehow. OK, I'm not a Christian and I profess to serious doubts about the man upstairs but there is a part of me that can't help wondering. I have had these type of experiences before.

hmmmm....in any case thank you all. The wheels are spinning alright but I can feel them just starting to take hold.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> . . . OK, I'm not a Christian and I profess to serious doubts about the man upstairs but there is a part of me that can't help wondering . . .


"And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed." (Deuteronomy 31:8)

". . . be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5)

Horizon, it cannot hurt to pray for wisdom, patience and courage and you might be surprised how much it will help. Whatever your relationship with "the man upstairs," he loves you and wants the best for you.


----------



## sandc

carmen ohio said:


> "And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed." (Deuteronomy 31:8)
> 
> ". . . be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5)
> 
> Horizon, it cannot hurt to pray for wisdom, patience and courage and you might be surprised how much it will help. Whatever your relationship with "the man upstairs," he loves you and wants the best for you.


And my personal favorite...

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

NOT trying to turn this into a spiritual thread. If you've ever got questions, PM me.


----------



## Horizon

We are in Recon world. And I am thankful for the horizontal tango scraps but I do get peeved. Now, let me just say that I well understand that Recon world is a bit like being in a lunatic asylum. It is not like any other place you have visited and it doesn't come with an exit sign. 

OK, we are on the same page. Now the thing about Recon world is that at a glance it looks like that other place you used to occupy, remember that place? - Normal world. Ahh, how good it looks now but, hate to break the news to you sunshine - you aint goin' back there anytime soon.

But Recon world is not without it's promises. You can get laid with your WS in Recon world. That is admissible and at times unavoidable and it is reported it can be somewhat hysterical - for a little while. Something is better than nothing - let's agree on that because if you are going with nothing you are not in Recon world you are in It's Over world.

So, here's the thing - if I spent years in Normal world getting knocked back more than I got laid, being set up all day that something was going to happen and then it doesn't materialise that night for any number of reasons (because I still hadn't worked out that we were in deep do do) why should I feel any different when that same vibe is apparent in Recon world.

She asks me last night if I want to play "hide the sausage" this weekend. "Sure" i say - dispensing with any sense of eagerness. And today she's giving out signs that tonight's the night. But sure as sh!t Sherlock as soon as a couple of drinks are under the belt and dinners eaten the same vibe that permeated my home for the last 5 years wafts through the house.

"I'm sore", "I'm tired", "I'm so exhausted", "this business with my father being sick is really taking it out of me"....some things stay the same - even in Recon world (unless this is not Recon world and I have actually landed in Bizzaro Recon world....oh God!!!!!)


----------



## Horizon

Oh, hang on, I just realised that Bizzaro Recon world would be perfect - look what it did for Kramer!


----------



## Robsia

She's controlling you in with same way she has alays controlled you - with sex.

Next time she asks you if you want to play "hide the sausage" say "No, thanks." And make her wonder why.


----------



## Horizon

of course nothing was going to happen tonight - I knew in my heart of hearts, as I have always known. I just wanted to deal with it here as a joke.

I went up to see her while she lay in bed. I simply said to her / asked her how she felt about things, how she thought we were going because I felt that it was strained, that we were not communicating.

Apparently she has been walking on eggshells the last 10 weeks and....I was up there wanting to talk because I wanted sex, or I was going to complain about not getting it...."no, that's not it at all, i'm over that. This is about...."

Worst argument ever, crutches flying, lightbulb broken, son crying.
When I mention the POSOM's name she goes nuts. She hates hearing it and even said "Don't mention his name because you are hurting the children" She's off the planet. 

Same old argument - she's completely recalcitrant. And I'm being brainwashed by TAM. And....drum roll...."get over it" and....drum roll...."It was nothing, a blip".....

Wow there was some bad language....sorry....finished, done, gone....


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> of course nothing was going to happen tonight - I knew in my heart of hearts, as I have always known. I just wanted to deal with it here as a joke.
> 
> I went up to see her while she lay in bed. I simply said to her / asked her how she felt about things, how she thought we were going because I felt that it was strained, that we were not communicating.
> 
> Apparently she has been walking on eggshells the last 10 weeks and....I was up there wanting to talk because I wanted sex, or I was going to complain about not getting it...."no, that's not it at all, i'm over that. This is about...."
> 
> Worst argument ever, crutches flying, lightbulb broken, son crying.
> When I mention the POSOM's name she goes nuts. She hates hearing it and even said "Don't mention his name because you are hurting the children" She's off the planet.
> 
> Same old argument - she's completely recalcitrant. And I'm being brainwashed by TAM. And....drum roll...."get over it" and....drum roll...."It was nothing, a blip".....
> 
> Wow there was some bad language....sorry....finished, done, gone....


The brainwashing here on TAM is a good one, you better believe when you are being cheated and the rationalization hamster finds reasons to keep you going, you are being brainwashed in a bad way.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Headspin said:


> You know how I feel about this horizon but I have been exactly where you are
> 
> - an emasculated, destroyed, who also became a SAHD, husband in love with a a mentally damaged cake eater, and whilst she was not overtly destroying everything and the boat remained unrocked by my co dependence, love support and infinite patience the world trucked on.
> 
> I could not make the leap could see only that I was the one who would break it all up and make everyone unhappy.
> 
> I did make the break - she was out, gone. I was left financially in ruins trying to look after my two kids 8/9 for 4 nights a week. House would need to be sold give her half and me left wallowing in a sea of shvt whilst OM left his wife for a wonderful life with her.
> 
> My kids wanted me to keep our house, their family home .
> I worked from home part time always and really upped my game.
> I put all my work in to the days when I do not have my kids and some on days when I do but as usual I worked around them
> OM did not leave his wife! (well well!)
> stbx found she had to take out a £10,000 loan to sort her rented accomodation / life out
> She lived in a rented small cottage for two months Now lives in a small uncomfortable terr house with kids in one room
> Kids and I still live in our big gardened beautiful 300 yr old cottage
> Financially I cut her off completely, even though she still earns at least twice as much as me she now has money problems
> I now earn treble from a year ago. I can afford to keep my house but not yet get a remortgage to pay her off, but that will come
> My kids despite her trying every which way to get more time to even up our time so she can argue better for more money from the house will not go to her for the extra day.
> They know what has happened and why and do not want to spend any more time with her
> I do not miss the whole of my life being a lie wondering about the next visit the next new face she might be banging
> I do not miss being a SAHD and have this person look at me questioning what I do as I clean up after her **** yet again
> 
> If I'm honest I do miss the intimacy of being with someone you feel is part of your very being, the great sex which it was, but that came with a price that no man or woman should have to pay - the complete destruction of a good, loving, honest, human being that is me
> 
> She made me completely forget me as I gave and gave and gave
> 
> Last night my daughter asked me if I was happy? ! I said apart from dealing with the divorce and house and access times which would all be sorted soon then yes I am but in a very different kind of way, an almost relieved way.
> Life is very simple now for us, focused on work to keep the kids as stable and happy as they can be in difficult circumstances. She asked if I would marry again. I said not for the near future and probably not anyway but that is the least of my worries atm. I realize this is a transitional period for me for us and that I have to be fully focused on the basics which are the children then me.
> 
> There is still difficulty stbx is impossible to deal with in an amicable way as she thought she'd wander of over the hill with OM into the land of unicorns and fairies within a month or so. It's all the complete reverse. In fact she's still trying to pull OM from his wife and child a year or so down the line. She's even trying to ingratiate him to my kids which they do not appreciate so that tells you a lot about her and how utterly self centered she is, but at least emotionally I don't have to worry about that, just that my kids are okay.
> 
> I'll stop there at the risk of derailment ! but this should show you that the fundamental difference between me 15 months ago and 12 months ago and of course now is that I realized down beneath my stomach I was born with a large pair of balls and they needed to come out and play a much bigger role in my life. They had sat down there for ten years, become redundant other than the obvious and to support the needs of a cake eating selfish bastard who damaged or otherwise chose to hurt my children and me and other families every fking day - every single fking day of our lives
> 
> Once my balls were out on the table in full view everything changed, literally overnight. It will happen to you at some point and it may take some time but you will and can do a lot better horizon. Life can present a different face for all of us and we often cant see how and why that happens, but it does and I'm sure it will for you
> 
> Good Luck



Read this till you digest......It may take days.


----------



## sandc

If anyone's brain ever needed washing it's yours.


----------



## Northern Monkey

You know exactly what it is.

Blame shifting.
Denial.
Hunting for the victim chair.

You've seen it all before by now yeah?


----------



## LostViking

Two words pop into my head when I think of you Horizon:

Stockholm

Syndrome


----------



## alte Dame

Yes, TAM is brainwashing you into thinking that she drinks far too much. All nonsense.


----------



## Horizon

And 3 things which i thought were very instructive from the Saturday night blow up (funny how details arrive a few days late)

- she described albeit briefly how she could well live on her own, how she didn't need all this hassle from me since DDay "on yah bike then" i said.

- Money, when this topic came up for the miilionth time and I calmly tried to explain to her that someone has to keep an eye on the household economy she finally spat the dummy and said "Who cares!". I said "so you're happy to go back to the bank in the next few months and lift the mortgage even further rather than rein in spending (always between $700 & $1,000 per month on her AMEX card)?" 

Her "it doesn't matter, and that new washing machine is on my AMEX don't forget" me "Why is that el cheapo $350 washing machine on your AMEX?"

Shoot - wish I'd never cracked that gag about passing on our debts to the children.

- At one point she said to me "Why are you harassing him and his wife?" me "WTF!, you're defending him?, oh my God!!" This was some bizarre reflection by her on the 2 texts I sent way back to the POSOM's wife to inform her and the texts from that same week which I sent to him to flush him out because he was so cagey. 

Is it possible to meet any normal people out there. My WS's arguments and points come apart like a hot knife through butter and often have no relevance. Gas lighting and diverting.


----------



## bfree

Why are you still arguing? Why are you still trying to win? And what is it that you think is there to win?


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> Why are you still arguing? Why are you still trying to win? And what is it that you think is there to win?


Damned if I know:scratchhead:


----------



## Horizon

bfree, 

seriously though, I think it is just years of unresolved resentment exposed by DDay. On both sides. This whole experience has also released a level of pent up rage.

When you are faced with the bald faced diversions still being perpetrated, the inability of the WS to acknowledge the facts, the in your face defensive line, and now the "let's get on with it" wall of silence, something occasionally gives.


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> bfree,
> 
> seriously though, I think it is just years of unresolved resentment exposed by DDay. On both sides. This whole experience has also released a level of pent up rage.
> 
> When you are faced with the bald faced diversions still being perpetrated, the inability of the WS to acknowledge the facts, the in your face defensive line, and now the "let's get on with it" wall of silence, something occasionally gives.


Resentment is your problem to deal with. Arguing with her isn't going to help you work through resentment or rage. Its just going to add to it. If you're on fire do you try to put it out with lighter fluid? Find a way to work through it by yourself. Don't you understand that you are doing and continue to do everything to perpetuate your own torment and pain? Stop for a minute and think about what you're doing...and then do the complete opposite.


----------



## Horizon

Yeah, I'm OK most of the time but when she gives me attitude when I ask a simple question....I'll try harder.

On the POSOM - do you disagree with me confronting him. No violence but because my WS is incapable / unwilling to answer my questions.

I need this jigsaw puzzle of the last 12 months as complete as I can get it before I feel I can even move one step forward.

Being TT'd by my WS for God knows how many years is completely unacceptable - it will not happen.


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> Yeah, I'm OK most of the time but when she gives me attitude when I ask a simple question....I'll try harder.
> 
> On the POSOM - do you disagree with me confronting him. No violence but because my WS is incapable / unwilling to answer my questions.
> 
> I need this jigsaw puzzle of the last 12 months as complete as I can get it before I feel I can even move one step forward.
> 
> Being TT'd by my WS for God knows how many years is completely unacceptable - it will not happen.


What do you gain from confronting him? Do you think he'll say he's sorry and if he did would you believe it? Do you think you'll get some sort of satisfaction or closure? What do you hope to accomplish? You cannot believe anything he says can you? See, you're going about this all wrong. You won't get answers by engaging the POSOM any more than you have by engaging your wife. The way to eventually get answers is to disengage. Disengage from your wife and certainly disengage from anyone else connected with her affair.


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> What do you gain from confronting him? Do you think he'll say he's sorry and if he did would you believe it? Do you think you'll get some sort of satisfaction or closure? What do you hope to accomplish? You cannot believe anything he says can you? See, you're going about this all wrong. You won't get answers by engaging the POSOM any more than you have by engaging your wife. The way to eventually get answers is to disengage. Disengage from your wife and certainly disengage from anyone else connected with her affair.


Part of it would just to enjoy watching the blood drain from his boater (boat race - face). Could go badly, but right now I'm so peed off that I need to fill this vacuum. I'm sick and tired of "eventually" bfree, that word is emblazoned on a tower in TT world.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Part of it would just to enjoy watching the blood drain from his boater (boat race - face). Could go badly, but right now I'm so peed off that I need to fill this vacuum. I'm sick and tired of "eventually" bfree, that word is emblazoned on a tower in TT world.


Confronting the OM at this point is weak, if you were going to do it at all you should have done it long ago.

You have to shake up this situation. Until you force changes things will continue as they have been. 

Get a job and move out. I'm going to keep telling you this until you get it. She's never going to change her attitude towards you as long as you keep doing the same stuff over and over. 

Do you want a better relationship with her? Show her what she has to lose. Right now you're showing her that she can cheat on you and treat you like crap and you don't have the testicular fortitude to do anything about it. So either step up and take some action or just admit that you're her maid and nanny and let her screw whoever she wants while you stay home and take care of the kids.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Also it appears you do have some rights even though you're not legally married. 

This page is from a law firm located in Sydney that specializes in this kind of case. Assuming you're not in Western Australia, of course.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks NF but I wont be vacating the premises in the very near future.

Here's something a little disturbing. I was doing a bit of driving yesterday and out of nowhere the penny dropped yet again for me on my WS.

When we first got together after she came to work where I was employed she was still living with her XH, I had been on my own for about 12 months and living in my own home.

I only went to her home once and that was to pick her up to drive her and other colleagues to a conference. She explained to me again how the marriage was dead, though they had obviously not divorced at that stage. A couple of months later, possibly less, she was living with me. 

In any case around this time she told me she had to meet up with a bloke and end there connection (my words). Obviously she had been seeing this bloke while still married. I protested about her going to meet him and I still remember her telling me that it was not something I could or should try to control but to trust her that she had to tell him goodbye.

OK, I was jealous of this stranger and we had only just kicked off so I kept out of it whatever and we moved on. That was about 18 years ago. When we had our blow up I asked her many times to reveal who that was- she refused outright. The best I got was that it some banker she had met at a work conference. She said - "I don't want you tracking him down like you did the.....(AP)". HUH? was my incredulous expression to that dopey statement.

OK, she was having an affair behind her husbands back, because, surprise surprise, things were dead in the water. And then something else....

Early in our relationship she introduced me to her circle of friends who we caught up with occasionally. Her best girlfriend had 2 daughters with a bloke who was very wayward, bi-polar and also had a criminal record. Actually he wasn't a bad fella but couldn't keep his hands off the babes and was generally irresponsible. 

Guess who had f**ked him behind her best GF's back?....You got it in one. I distinctly remember her confessing this to me early in the peace. Yes, it happened before my time with her.

And now she has repeated the pattern with me. That's the thing, the pattern. It never occurred to me before but there is a distinct pattern of behavior. Food for thought. 

You, know, I'm reading about Mick Jagger at the moment, not that I haven't read about him before but this is more about his activities with women (and some men). It's gossipy for sure but if it is even remotely accurate I'm wondering if we should just all live in open relationships and be done with it. 

Yeah, write into law, into marriage agreements with the children the primary consideration. Shoot, the ramifications....


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Thanks NF but I wont be vacating the premises in the very near future.





Nucking Futs said:


> Confronting the OM at this point is weak, if you were going to do it at all you should have done it long ago.
> 
> You have to shake up this situation. Until you force changes things will continue as they have been.
> 
> Get a job and move out. I'm going to keep telling you this until you get it. She's never going to change her attitude towards you as long as you keep doing the same stuff over and over.
> 
> Do you want a better relationship with her? Show her what she has to lose. Right now you're showing her that she can cheat on you and treat you like crap and you don't have the testicular fortitude to do anything about it. So either step up and take some action or just admit that you're her maid and nanny and let her screw whoever she wants while you stay home and take care of the kids.


:banghead:


----------



## Enginerd

Horizon said:


> Thanks NF but I wont be vacating the premises in the very near future.
> 
> Here's something a little disturbing. I was doing a bit of driving yesterday and out of nowhere the penny dropped yet again for me on my WS.
> 
> When we first got together after she came to work where I was employed she was still living with her XH, I had been on my own for about 12 months and living in my own home.
> 
> I only went to her home once and that was to pick her up to drive her and other colleagues to a conference. She explained to me again how the marriage was dead, though they had obviously not divorced at that stage. A couple of months later, possibly less, she was living with me.
> 
> In any case around this time she told me she had to meet up with a bloke and end there connection (my words). Obviously she had been seeing this bloke while still married. I protested about her going to meet him and I still remember her telling me that it was not something I could or should try to control but to trust her that she had to tell him goodbye.
> 
> OK, I was jealous of this stranger and we had only just kicked off so I kept out of it whatever and we moved on. That was about 18 years ago. When we had our blow up I asked her many times to reveal who that was- she refused outright. The best I got was that it some banker she had met at a work conference. She said - "I don't want you tracking him down like you did the.....(AP)". HUH? was my incredulous expression to that dopey statement.
> 
> OK, she was having an affair behind her husbands back, because, surprise surprise, things were dead in the water. And then something else....
> 
> Early in our relationship she introduced me to her circle of friends who we caught up with occasionally. Her best girlfriend had 2 daughters with a bloke who was very wayward, bi-polar and also had a criminal record. Actually he wasn't a bad fella but couldn't keep his hands off the babes and was generally irresponsible.
> 
> Guess who had f**ked him behind her best GF's back?....You got it in one. I distinctly remember her confessing this to me early in the peace. Yes, it happened before my time with her.
> 
> And now she has repeated the pattern with me. That's the thing, the pattern. It never occurred to me before but there is a distinct pattern of behavior. Food for thought.
> 
> You, know, I'm reading about Mick Jagger at the moment, not that I haven't read about him before but this is more about his activities with women (and some men). It's gossipy for sure but if it is even remotely accurate I'm wondering if we should just all live in open relationships and be done with it.
> 
> Yeah, write into law, into marriage agreements with the children the primary consideration. Shoot, the ramifications....




You're such a drama queen Horizon.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> :banghead:


What? And leave my children here in this house and move into a bedroom somewhere? 

R U F**king Nuts??


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> And now she has repeated the pattern with me. That's the thing, the pattern. It never occurred to me before but there is a distinct pattern of behavior. Food for thought.


Exactly. The pattern. She won't change, ever.
So.... plan your exit.


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> What do you gain from confronting him? Do you think he'll say he's sorry and if he did would you believe it? Do you think you'll get some sort of satisfaction or closure? What do you hope to accomplish? You cannot believe anything he says can you? See, you're going about this all wrong. You won't get answers by engaging the POSOM any more than you have by engaging your wife. The way to eventually get answers is to disengage. Disengage from your wife and certainly disengage from anyone else connected with her affair.


bfree - i am doing that. It is a fine line but I'm disengaging in the right way I believe. I'm focused on the children, getting work and keeping this household civil. Except for that outrageous blow up last weekend things have been OK.

But I have bad days when I want to smash this c**t. My logic goes out the window. There is a jigsaw puzzle half complete and I thought that seeing as he was the only one who gave me the answers before that he could give me more answers and I could maybe get this puzzle 75% complete.

That's part of the disease I've contracted bfree - it demands answers and my WS is completely unable thus far to put any meat on the sandwich. Most days I'm OK.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Horizon said:


> bfree - i am doing that. It is a fine line but I'm disengaging in the right way I believe. I'm focused on the children, getting work and keeping this household civil. Except for that outrageous blow up last weekend things have been OK.
> 
> But I have bad days when I want to smash this c**t. My logic goes out the window. There is a jigsaw puzzle half complete and I thought that seeing as he was the only one who gave me the answers before that he could give me more answers and I could maybe get this puzzle 75% complete.
> 
> That's part of the disease I've contracted bfree - it demands answers and my WS is completely unable thus far to put any meat on the sandwich. Most days I'm OK.


You do realize that you more than likely aren't going to get the answers you seek. And even if you get answers you won't know if they are true or complete. You are like me in that way. You seek closure. I sought closure for over 20 years far into my second marriage. You know what I learned. Not only that you can never really get closure but ultimately it doesn't matter when compared to having a rewarding and fulfilling life.


----------



## LostViking

This whole thread is one big slow-motion trainwreck.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> What? And leave my children here in this house and move into a bedroom somewhere?
> 
> R U F**king Nuts??


Yeah, because what you're doing now is so effective. 

You're using your children as an excuse for passivity. You've said in this thread that your wife is a good mother, so what are you afraid of? 

They're children, real little people, not life preservers for you to cling to in fear of the world outside that house.


----------



## carmen ohio

Nucking Futs said:


> Yeah, because what you're doing now is so effective.
> 
> You're using your children as an excuse for passivity. You've said in this thread that your wife is a good mother, so what are you afraid of?
> 
> They're children, real little people, not life preservers for you to cling to in fear of the world outside that house.


Sorry, Horizon, but I've got to agree with this.

I know you really love your children and want the best for them. At some point you're going to realize that the life you have with your wayward partner is damaging them and that, for their sake, you have to find a way to regain your independence from her and leave her behind.

I just hope you realize this while you can still do something about it.


----------



## jay_gatsby

carmen ohio said:


> Sorry, Horizon, but I've got to agree with this.
> 
> I know you really love your children and want the best for them. At some point you're going to realize that the life you have with your wayward partner is damaging them and that, for their sake, you have to find a way to regain your independence from her and leave her behind.
> 
> I just hope you realize this while you can still do something about it.


:iagree:


----------



## Horizon

Enginerd said:


> You're such a drama queen Horizon.


Yeah , you have a problem with that?. Her proclivity to cheat was not apparent to me. It's only since DDay that there is a pattern evident. Nothing was happening like this during our 18 years, no red flags except in the last 12 months - 3 of which I ignored.

Next time get back to me with something substantial - we all have to work through our own sh!t our own way.


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> This whole thread is one big slow-motion trainwreck.


Then stick around for the grand finale'


----------



## Northern Monkey

Hey Horizon

I ended up being the one to leave despite it all being her choice. I couldn't truly detach under the same roof.

I believe the people saying the time has come may be right. 

I fought against moving out and moving on for months. But it did bring clarity. 6 months from moving on and I am as emotionally stable and happy as I recall EVER being. This despite not seeing as much of my boys as I want and having no work right now. I know who I am and what I want for the first time. I not WE.

I don't just mean drop everything and go. But I think planning that move is every bit as important as working on yourself and your employment options.


----------



## jay_gatsby

Horizon, what exactly are you trying to?


----------



## Horizon

OK - I'm in my 180 zone and it appears she is doing her version of the 180. As of right now 6.30 at night I have had it up to here! No, I'm not talking about falling for her 180 - her 180 is "carry on as normal". I now call it that. But does it gets my goat or what.

This is the trouble with years of dependency. If only she'd do just a little bit more - but it is not happening. I'm massively sexually frustrated - and nothing is coming down the line around here. Look, I'll be honest, I have from time to time turned to the internet for some "stimulation" in the last few weeks. I don't feel great about it but it worked at the time - sort of.

Yes, I have to look after me - no argument. But when you are 10 weeks out from DDay and you are meant to be in Recon (supposedly) and nothing is happening it is a little demeaning and a little more humiliating. I mean what the f**k does she think is going on in my head?

And I'll say this - I may be nuts but I could swear that the recovery from the operation and the "I'm exhausted" from using the crutches routine and the "I'm so exhausted" anyway and the ubiquitous Saturday and Sunday 3 hour afternoon naps are all perfect "outs". 

I nearly lost it before when she started to side with my son when I told him he was not having the whole chocolate bar but he could have half. Then after I departed to the PC here to let off steam I heard, as I have so so many times over the years - "Your Dad is right....". Gee thanks - can't even parent without some interference or undermining.


----------



## Horizon

and....last night on her way to bed, about to ascend the staircase she turned to me and said "I can't wait, I want to have more "cuddles", this boot, I hate cuddles with this boot on....". 

"Yes, how terrible for you. You poor thing"


----------



## Horizon

"Oh, bloody hell, Jesus, the kitten's got outside. Can you go and get the kitten"

"Sure, as if I haven't got anything better to do with my f**king life"

"Thanks....are you alright?"

"I don't want to talk about it"

"What's wrong?"

"Nothing is being resolved around here....f**king forget it. I don't want to talk about it. Seriously, don't worry about it"

Yeah pathetic - I must be getting close to moving out day. This frustration zone is much more frequent now. I feel like I'm wasting my life.


----------



## Robsia

^How can you expect it to be resolved if you don't want to talk about it? If my H and I had a problem, and he told me not to worry about it and he didn't want to talk about it, I'd take him at his word.

Also, watch your behaviour. Bitter sarcasm and swearing is borderline abusive. As the BS, I have the right to be angry, but when working toward R, I don't have the right to be abusive toward my WH - it's not constructive.


----------



## LostViking

Robsia said:


> ^How can you expect it to be resolved if you don't want to talk about it? If my H and I had a problem, and he told me not to worry about it and he didn't want to talk about it, I'd take him at his word.
> 
> Also, watch your behaviour. Bitter sarcasm and swearing is borderline abusive. As the BS, I have the right to be angry, but when working toward R, I don't have the right to be abusive toward my WH - it's not constructive.


There is no recovery to work on. In order for recovery to begin the wayward spouse has to show remorse and contrition....she is showing none. Zero, nada, goose egg. 

Horizons best bet is to get out and find a place of his own, get a job, lose the tonnage and start being a man again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

Robsia said:


> ^How can you expect it to be resolved if you don't want to talk about it? If my H and I had a problem, and he told me not to worry about it and he didn't want to talk about it, I'd take him at his word.
> 
> Also, watch your behaviour. Bitter sarcasm and swearing is borderline abusive. As the BS, I have the right to be angry, but when working toward R, I don't have the right to be abusive toward my WH - it's not constructive.


No one's working toward R here, it's just rug sweeping and whining.


----------



## Horizon

Well that was a great weekend.

We had a good talk on Saturday night. We agreed not to argue and were successful for the most part.

I learned a lot from this conversation. Some things finally sunk in. My WS will never resile from her position that her affair was justified. She agreed it was not justified on any level but because I turned from her, ignored her and made her feel unwelcome in her own home it was justified. It wan't justified but it was justified. 

My WS will never resile from her position that she derived no physical enjoyment from the multiple acts of intimacy with the POSOM. It simply was not anything like I think it was. Tick, I get it now.

And I learned something new. I also practiced infidelity. Because I had turned from her, ignored her and made her feel unwelcome in her own home I had effectively cheated on her. Therefore you could argue that her infidelity was in fact a revenge affair because of my cheating.

Later that night we got it on like we haven't for years. Like I said - that was a great weekend.


----------



## LostViking

Oh .....my....god....

That's it. I'm never coming back to this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> Oh .....my....god....
> 
> That's it. I'm never coming back to this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All true. Stick around LV, the best is yet to come.

pssst - I've found some accommodation close by.


----------



## LostViking

Sh!t I just did! Dammit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

So did you apologize for cheating on her? (Joking)

The scary thing is that with logic like hers,she could on a whim cheat with anyone at anytime and never be guilty.

Wow, Forest run.


----------



## Acabado

I really want to chop your wife's head from her shoulders. Damm.


----------



## happyman64

Horizon said:


> Well that was a great weekend.
> 
> We had a good talk on Saturday night. We agreed not to argue and were successful for the most part.
> 
> I learned a lot from this conversation. Some things finally sunk in. My WS will never resile from her position that her affair was justified. She agreed it was not justified on any level but because I turned from her, ignored her and made her feel unwelcome in her own home it was justified. It wan't justified but it was justified.
> 
> My WS will never resile from her position that she derived no physical enjoyment from the multiple acts of intimacy with the POSOM. It simply was not anything like I think it was. Tick, I get it now.
> 
> And I learned something new. I also practiced infidelity. Because I had turned from her, ignored her and made her feel unwelcome in her own home I had effectively cheated on her. Therefore you could argue that her infidelity was in fact a revenge affair because of my cheating.
> 
> Later that night we got it on like we haven't for years. Like I said - that was a great weekend.


Wanna have another great weekend?

Tell her by her reasoning that you are entitled to a physical affair to even the score. After all, in her mind you already committed adultery.

Run that by her on Friday night and see if she steps up to the plate over the weekend???


Let us all know on Sunday how that works out for you Horizon.....


----------



## Nucking Futs

You can't even argue with someone who thinks like this. It doesn't matter how right you are, her "logic" invalidates whatever you say. :crazy:


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> You can't even argue with someone who thinks like this. It doesn't matter how right you are, her "logic" invalidates whatever you say. :crazy:


Beautifully put. That's what it has been like for almost 18 years when it comes down to tin tacks ie: when the sh!t hits the fan, when I've ever got to close to the truth on anything that's a little close to the bone. 

My WS is in a world of deep pain from her upbringing and her wayward behavior is but one aspect of how she deals with it. I can't help her with that - I have encouraged her to go into counseling & she acknowledges she needs it but....there's her work, the new job she will probably get, the recovery from the operation, the sick father....you get the picture.

Not to mention me cheating on her....


----------



## Headspin

One of my best friends is a regional head of a mental health care company 

Here's one point he impressed upon me recently that highlighted a huge mistake I was, am, always did make about my stbx.

He said "You are making a huge error and always have. You are always applying the logic of a regular normal thinking man / person on any situation that arises with your wife.
That would be worth persevering with if she were the same - regular and normal - BUT, she isn't, never has been, never will, be so you are simply wasting your time and effort doing that
You will only ever get any understanding, even worthwhile interaction, with her when you start treating her like the damaged person she is and always has been
She can never understand or reason in a normal way because she isn't 'normal in any accepted sense
You need to understand this yourself to be able to deal with and move forward with her in any sensible way that will satisfy what you need"

In terms of her mentality and my expectations he is dead right and only since I started dealing with her in a completely different way albeit, acrimoniously and more aggressively have I got any 'sense' from her way of thinking


----------



## Horizon

Shaggy said:


> So did you apologize for cheating on her? (Joking)
> 
> The scary thing is that with logic like hers,she could on a whim cheat with anyone at anytime and never be guilty.
> 
> Wow, Forest run.


Was unable to apologise as I was unable to form words at the time. Mouth agape, eyes fixed and dilated.


----------



## Northern Monkey

That's some impressive stuff from her. Not exactly surprising though.

Tbh though I'm more interested in the accomodation comment.

Sounds like your in a strong phase.


----------



## Acabado

Headspin said:


> One of my best friends is a regional head of a mental health care company
> 
> Here's one point he impressed upon me recently that highlighted a huge mistake I was, am, always did make about my stbx.
> 
> He said "You are making a huge error and always have. You are always applying the logic of a regular normal thinking man / person on any situation that arises with your wife.
> That would be worth persevering with if she were the same - regular and normal - BUT, she isn't, never has been, never will, be so you are simply wasting your time and effort doing that
> You will only ever get any understanding, even worthwhile interaction, with her when you start treating her like the damaged person she is and always has been
> She can never understand or reason in a normal way because she isn't 'normal in any accepted sense
> You need to understand this yourself to be able to deal with and move forward with her in any sensible way that will satisfy what you need"
> 
> In terms of her mentality and my expectations he is dead right and only since I started dealing with her in a completely different way albeit, acrimoniously and more aggressively have I got any 'sense' from her way of thinking


Did he follow it with practical advice on how to?


----------



## bfree

Acabado said:


> Did he follow it with practical advice on how to?


Yeah......RUN!


----------



## Acabado

bfree said:


> Yeah......RUN!


I know it's what Headspin did. I'm rather sure it's what Horizon should.


----------



## Headspin

Acabado said:


> Did he follow it with practical advice on how to?


haha 

That's the problem, he spoke sense in every way, but for me it was a slow extraction. Pulling myself away from a woman who I had grown accustomed to being there for, to support for, to forgive transgressions, to make allowances for all the time but in a sense always trying to gently impose 'normality' upon her which is what we deep down want to see, our closest being as happy and fulfilled in a 'normal' world as much as they can be. Whilst she had me fighting in her corner since day one she relied upon my normality to shield her, to get her through her mental issues.

But my friend was right that was always playing into her hands allowing her to have our relationship based upon her needs her desires - her control. After dday about 14 months ago now it took me another 6 months to come to my senses, to start treating her like the manipulative scheming deceiving ***** she really was.

As he pointed out stop trying to get, to expect, a typical response from a 'normal' responsible person - she is damaged and will never do that, she had become an animal that scented blood and repeatedly went in for the kill, she upped her 'abuse' factor as she went along too, enjoying each new exposure more than the last. She became so self orientated / centered that it was hard to believe this was the same person I'd met 16 years ago. 

The moment I started treating her like she was this half crazed dog who would unpredictably lash out for no reason the easier it became. I went into self preservation mode ignored all the usual lines of amicable communication. Went completely dark, the full 180 more (like a 1,080!!) then I saw her truest colors of all, even after we separated, happy to chase whatever she wants at the infliction of any damage to our children or the families children wives of other s too.

It then became very easy to detach but in Horizons defense this has only just happened for him and it takes some time to really sink in about a person who you obviously care about so much be they mentally challenged or not. It really takes a lot of self examination and reasoning to understand you are not dealing with somebody who loves you in the usual sense. 'Disordered' people have an agenda about the way they love and attach to others - they simply will not / are not capable of loving you in a simple straightforward reciprocative way ie - normal. There is always something 'complicated attached to their 'love'. There is always a price 

There is no general right way of dealing with a person like this, you find a way after not being able to and then you grasp it with both hands and in my case, you head for the hills.

I had 4 ddays - Although there was obviously never a true reconciliation I gave it a damn good go ! 

It's why I so admire those who can reconcile. With all the mental stuff that is so embedded in dealing with adultery infidelity I'm amazed that some human beings can have such mental strength to actually embark on it and succeed


----------



## Horizon

What a f**ked day. Contacted the POSOM just to hear him sh!t himself. Waste of time but couldn't be helped.

Look, I know most of you are done with my thread but this pain - wow!

I am so pissed off with my WS. To think I have been dealing with the discovery of my father's pedophilia since 2005, depression off and on in the last 2 years, ill-health off and on, male menopasue (according to my Endocrinologist who detected Low T and resolved it with HRT also in the last 2 years) and Diabetes, also confirmed by my Endo.

Not attractive but, you know, the excuse is about me turning away blah blah blah and all the time she knew about the sh!storm going on. And think about this - I became SAHD to also allow her career to progress. Something I've never mentioned and something a magistrate might take into account.

Fark, I'm angry about this. The whole bloodhound thing, limbo thing is destroying my life. I've become obsessed - I've become this suspicious f**ked up fatherly beast and not of my own doing, this is not who I am!

My WS has all her own sh!t going on and that lead to the opening line from the talk last Saturday night. She called the "talk" before bed and lead with - "I know you would like me....want me to do more and I know you are not happy about me not doing much but....there is all this stuff going on with my Dad being sick and the operation. It's not that I....."

ERGGHHHH!!!!!DEAD END STREET


----------



## Horizon

And another thing I became and still am the emotional touchstone for a much loved older brother who has been completely ostracised by an uncaring twin brother and the rest of the family. I'm his only contact, his only love. And he is the father of an abused daughter at the hands of his own father, my f**king Dad! I've been willingly doing all that as well as get the house sold and find a house. I mean sh!t, things happen in life. 

"in sickness and in health...." sure, didn't take the vows but it's understood - f**king BS is what it is! Weak is what she is, couldn't do the hard yards....rambling....mongrels.


----------



## Horizon

Yes, somewht inebriated for once. my turn i reckon........


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> And another thing I became and still am the emotional touchstone for a much loved older brother who has been completely ostracised by an uncaring twin brother and the rest of the family. I'm his only contact, his only love. And he is the father of an abused daughter at the hands of his own father, my f**king Dad! I've been willingly doing all that as well as get the house sold and find a house. I mean sh!t, things happen in life.


So?


----------



## Horizon

So, my WS's father just passed away - call came in 20 minutes ago, 3.24am. Reality check. He was a mean old bastard but I came to love him. Better father figure than the POS I had.


----------



## Horizon

Detectives have been here this morning to issue an Apprehended Violence Order. I missed them so I will be interested when I get down to the Cop shop sometime today to see what the details are.

I have made no threats but I'm sure there will be a threat construed. It may be placed by his wife - in any case I'm looking fwd to my day in court. 

In the presence of a magistrate the plaintiff has to demonstrate / prove that an AVO is warranted and I get to say my bit as well. 

Will be good at least to finally see this bloke face to face unless he has someone appear for him. We'll see.


----------



## CEL

Horizon said:


> Detectives have been here this morning to issue an Apprehended Violence Order. I missed them so I will be interested when I get down to the Cop shop sometime today to see what the details are.
> 
> I have made no threats but I'm sure there will be a threat construed. It may be placed by his wife - in any case I'm looking fwd to my day in court.
> 
> In the presence of a magistrate the plaintiff has to demonstrate / prove that an AVO is warranted and I get to say my bit as well.
> 
> Will be good at least to finally see this bloke face to face unless he has someone appear for him. We'll see.



Okay I am going to give you AWESOME advice.

1. See IC like make that your number 1 priority.

2. Get your wife in IC make that number 2

3. Go to MC make that number 3


You have a TON going on. She has a TON going on. You need some real help to sort this stuff out I don't think you are crazy or anything I think you really need someone to talk to who can REALLY help you deal with all this crap so whatever you think is number 1 on your list it is not reorder you life to get this stuff done. Otherwise I fear for YOUR and HER future life.


----------



## happyman64

Horizon

Do not get your butt thrown in jail please.

HM


----------



## Shaggy

Horizon,

What's going that they would come looking for you?


----------



## Horizon

Yep, all the sh!t that I am going through and just to top it off I'm the bad guy.

And hey I'm in trouble anyway for daring to ask an intrusive question on the same day that her father dies. F**king insensitive me. Which lead to an inpromptu meeting....

But the ledger is balanced - I'm the one being secretive for not mentioning that I'd attempted more contact with the POSOM.(the AVO Cops gave her their business card)

....and she didn't enjoy it and I contributed to it happening - all repeated yet again when she attempted to explain in the meeting why after nearly 3 months she hasn't lifted a finger to recon....it started to get a little frayed around the edges after that. 

Daughter's choir practice the perfect escape plan.


----------



## Horizon

POSCOM (piece of sh!t cowardly other man) uses my limited communication with his him and his wife to apply for an AVO. Trying to push the harassment / fear angle I'd say. 

I called the constable from the Cop card but they never came back - probably just knocking off night shift. She was just coming back from her Mum's when they arrived, I was doing the school run.

Over here plaintiff can apply for a variety AVO's via cops or via court. The cops serve it on the defendant (me) and you have to attend court for what is called mention and then later for a hearing.

Be interesting to see what's in the AVO statement.


----------



## Horizon

Sorry you good people, but I just have to throw this out there to piss you all off. 

During the impromptu tonight we covered off again on the fact that my WS didn't take the STD test and lied to me that she did take it.

And yes....she didn't have the STD test because....an entirely new angle now folks....get ready for it....not a word of a lie....drum roll...."you didn't give me the opportunity to say no!"

Excuse me while I vomit.


----------



## Shaggy

Horizon,

I really do not think she is making any real effort to R. In fact her actions sound more like someone who will cheat again given the opportunity.

She put more effort into the affair and OM than into R and you.

Exit plan time.


----------



## turnera

Explain again why you'd stay with her?


----------



## LostViking

Yeah....horizon you must have ton of self-hatred. You almost seem to relish the abuse. And this is abuse. You are an abused husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> And yes....she didn't have the STD test because....an entirely new angle now folks....get ready for it....not a word of a lie....drum roll...."you didn't give me the opportunity to say no!"
> Excuse me while I vomit.


When you think the kind f psychological mindset required to have this kind of thoughts and behavior... you just can give up any hope she can live as a normal person. No way.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Sorry you good people, but I just have to throw this out there to piss you all off.
> 
> During the impromptu tonight we covered off again on the fact that my WS didn't take the STD test and lied to me that she did take it.
> 
> *And yes....she didn't have the STD test because....an entirely new angle now folks....get ready for it....not a word of a lie....drum roll...."you didn't give me the opportunity to say no!"*
> 
> Excuse me while I vomit.


This is entirely logical and makes perfect sense. Of course, I mean in that special logic she uses, not normal logic.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Sorry you good people, but I just have to throw this out there to piss you all off.
> 
> During the impromptu tonight we covered off again on the fact that my WS didn't take the STD test and lied to me that she did take it.
> 
> And yes....she didn't have the STD test because....an entirely new angle now folks....get ready for it....not a word of a lie....drum roll...."you didn't give me the opportunity to say no!"
> 
> Excuse me while I vomit.


Ok it's been enough, time for you to detach and move on. Don't question or revisit that entire situation and get on with your life.


----------



## workindad

Shaggy said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I really do not think she is making any real effort to R. In fact her actions sound more like someone who will cheat again given the opportunity.
> 
> She put more effort into the affair and OM than into R and you.
> 
> Exit plan time.



I could not possibly agree more. Sorry to say it, but it is time to begin your exit strategy.


----------



## Horizon

You are all right. I have a place to go but....look, I am the bad guy for daring to even consider let alone express some minute need to ask a question during this sudden bereavement. I am involved, I'm a support, I may have to do the eulogy and then there is everything else....

I could not control my inner fuming bloke from peaking over the carapace since it struck me that her very involvement with this scumbag is the reason I'm in this new mess with the court. Obviously right - it all comes back to this god damn betrayal.

I'm not running around screaming but hell do I want to rage. So when she wants to have a sit down and apologise for ignoring me because she's concerned about how I will react, or I raise my voice, or I'm not listening, or why do I care because I turned away, or her broken foot or her deceased father or whatever it will be next - it starts me up. 

So, I'm in this zone and now I am being portrayed as the insensitive bastard for daring to not only throwing out a question last night but continuing with my sarcasm this morning - such is the rage within. I have crossed a line - to dare express hurt and anger and all this Broken Spouse sh!t (she inflicted) when her father has passed on.

I could have handled it better, sucked it up. Instead I will now have selfish a-hole attached to my name, needy selfish a-hole. But who was to know the AVO was real or that the Cops would show 5 hours after the old fella died.

She took off to take the children to school on the way to her Mum's. Giving me the firm cold shoulder I deserve. later I'll have to try and squeeze out some type of apology - more emasculation.

Just my luck. It set me off down this path of self- loathing and resentment and emasculation all over again. Stuff she is not able to help me with, particularly not now - never in fact.

There is too much resentment and justification - and she will never suggest counseling or mediation or whatever because deep down she is not affected, she's over it.

This is the stage I'm at people - the pre-exit stage I suppose. Where it is really hitting me that there is nothing there but memories clouded by layers of pent up resentment. An abject example of a couple who did not communicate, who, when the writing was on the wall, ignored it and let it fester. 

I cannot up and leave this very moment - yes, exit strategy.

Sorry to frustrate those of you who are further down the path, who see and know all too well the story. I'm living this part of it and it is breaking my heart just to type this. I'll try and pull my head in until after the funeral.


----------



## Horizon

You have to understand the sickness this has brought out - on one hand I don't care that she is upset with me. F**k her and her pain.

The old bloke was such a massive intolerant rude a-hole to his wife and most others that it's no wonder the wife is in shock but oh so relived that after 50 years she can finally have an identity. She's looking fwd to finally having a pet - believe that? Wasn't allowed to. She'll sell the dump for a windfall and get the retirement village home with her friends that she's been dreaming about. Good for her - such a beautiful Christian woman.

They're glad deep down - you get it. Sh!t, I shouldn't have said that this morning. What a prick I am. Still, I liked him, at least you knew where you stood with him.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> You are all right. I have a place to go but....look, I am the bad guy for daring to even consider let alone express some minute need to ask a question during this sudden bereavement. I am involved, I'm a support, I may have to do the eulogy and then there is everything else....
> 
> I could not control my inner fuming bloke from peaking over the carapace since it struck me that her very involvement with this scumbag is the reason I'm in this new mess with the court. Obviously right - it all comes back to this god damn betrayal.
> 
> I'm not running around screaming but hell do I want to rage. So when she wants to have a sit down and apologise for ignoring me because she's concerned about how I will react, or I raise my voice, or I'm not listening, or why do I care because I turned away, or her broken foot or her deceased father or whatever it will be next - it starts me up.
> 
> So, I'm in this zone and now I am being portrayed as the insensitive bastard for daring to not only throwing out a question last night but continuing with my sarcasm this morning - such is the rage within. I have crossed a line - to dare express hurt and anger and all this Broken Spouse sh!t (she inflicted) when her father has passed on.
> 
> I could have handled it better, sucked it up. Instead I will now have selfish a-hole attached to my name, needy selfish a-hole. But who was to know the AVO was real or that the Cops would show 5 hours after the old fella died.
> 
> She took off to take the children to school on the way to her Mum's. Giving me the firm cold shoulder I deserve. later I'll have to try and squeeze out some type of apology - more emasculation.
> 
> Just my luck. It set me off down this path of self- loathing and resentment and emasculation all over again. Stuff she is not able to help me with, particularly not now - never in fact.
> 
> There is too much resentment and justification - and she will never suggest counseling or mediation or whatever because deep down she is not affected, she's over it.
> 
> This is the stage I'm at people - the pre-exit stage I suppose. Where it is really hitting me that there is nothing there but memories clouded by layers of pent up resentment. An abject example of a couple who did not communicate, who, when the writing was on the wall, ignored it and let it fester.
> 
> I cannot up and leave this very moment - yes, exit strategy.
> 
> Sorry to frustrate those of you who are further down the path, who see and know all too well the story. I'm living this part of it and it is breaking my heart just to type this. I'll try and pull my head in until after the funeral.


:slap: :banghead:


----------



## Horizon

Yep


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> Yeah....horizon you must have ton of self-hatred. You almost seem to relish the abuse. And this is abuse. You are an abused husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's is true, why am I reveling in this torture? I'm sick no? There must be a label for it - persecution complex. Perverse pleasure in ones own misfortune.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Explain again why you'd stay with her?


Don't know anymore - kids?, fear of the unknown or that me being out there without a career, in a room and....being the loser that I feel I am. yeah that's me the loser who needs her but has got to a point where I'm being forced to confront me. So, she is actually doing me a favor. I guess that means that the only thing I feel for her are those rare tender moments and the equally rare sex. What is a normal relationship? just 2 f**ked up people who are reaping the harvest of their unresolved personal issues and the whole new bag of issues they both created. Pain = more pain. Loserville - but she's tough and she's got what every player needs. I just can't see my options yet.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Don't know anymore - kids?, fear of the unknown or that me being out there without a career, in a room and....being the loser that I feel I am. yeah that's me the loser who needs her but has got to a point where I'm being forced to confront me. So, she is actually doing me a favor. I guess that means that the only thing I feel for her are those rare tender moments and the equally rare sex. What is a normal relationship? just 2 f**ked up people who are reaping the harvest of their unresolved personal issues and the whole new bag of issues they both created. Pain = more pain. Loserville - but she's tough and she's got what every player needs. I just can't see my options yet.


You are a loser, and you will remain a loser as long as you stay there and let her continue to emasculate you. Nut up and move out. There will never be a good time, only somewhat less bad times, so just suck it up and move out. You won't believe how much clearer your thinking will become and how much easier it will be to move forward once you've removed yourself from the situation that is holding you down. 

Do it. Just do it. You will feel better and you're SO will have an opportunity to see what she's losing. Give her a chance to miss you, you might be surprised at her reaction.

Just do it.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I could have handled it better, sucked it up. Instead I will now have selfish a-hole attached to my name


So?



Horizon said:


> later I'll have to try and squeeze out some type of apology


Why?


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> oh so relived that after 50 years she can finally have an identity. She's looking fwd to finally having a pet - believe that? Wasn't allowed to.


What does that mean? YOU didn't allow her to have a pet?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

turnera said:


> What does that mean? YOU didn't allow her to have a pet?


I think he's talking about his MIL. His wife's father was the massive intolerant a-hole and his MIL was not allowed to have a pet.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> So?
> 
> Why?


I was trying to say that I wished I had acted with a bit more decorum less than 24 hours after my WS lost her father. I just didn't have the strength to hold back on my issues since the AVO trigger (Cops still haven't got back to me - low priority)

Disturbingly I'm still angry & and a little sarcastic. Finally told my mother today - boy is she pissed off. I was a mess for 4 hours. She helped me. I've had my issues with Mum for sure but she was there for me every step of the way today.

Recon mode never was - as Lost Viking or Nucking Futs said, there is no Recon here.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> I was trying to say that I wished I had acted with a bit more decorum less than 24 hours after my WS lost her father. *I just didn't have the strength to hold back on my issues since the AVO trigger *(Cops still haven't got back to me - low priority)
> 
> *Disturbingly I'm still angry & and a little sarcastic.* Finally told my mother today - boy is she pissed off. I was a mess for 4 hours. She helped me. I've had my issues with Mum for sure but she was there for me every step of the way today.
> 
> Recon mode never was - as Lost Viking or Nucking Futs said, there is no Recon here.


This is completely UNsurprising to me. Not only has your wife betrayed you in the worst possible way, but you are continuing what she started by allowing her to repeatedly rug sweep her appalling behaviour with no consequences. 

Not only are you betraying yourself and your own psychological needs primarily, but your children are living in an emotionally toxic environment because neither of their parents are doing what needs to be done.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I was trying to say that I wished I had acted with a bit more decorum less than 24 hours after my WS lost her father.


That is worth an apology. Make it (with no 'but's') and then move on and return to your self-protection mode.

But try to keep the sarcasm under wraps, ok? Not healthy for you or anyone else.


----------



## Openminded

Don't ever again contact the other man. There can be no good outcome from that. Your anger needs to be directed toward your wife. She's the cause of this.

What is your plan going forward?


----------



## Horizon

Example of sarcasm (or what WS generally terms snide remarks). My WS was explaining to our son how the eulogy will be split up among various members of the family and how she and myself will speak. My son asked her what will we say. I said " I know what I'd like to tell them". WS's bitter expression followed and that is how it has been since the Cops showed and I went into this post AVO trigger zone that I'm still in. 

But as I previously said things have gotten progressively worse in the last few weeks. And I think it is primarily because I am expected to get over it, that I have been doing the heavy lifting and snooping and I'm just worn out from the whole analytical shebang and what I can see she is.

Even here at 6.19am I have these feelings and thoughts which no person should have. I resent my WS, I resent her silence, the bitterness like a 180 that she is now enacting because I have been so "callous" - f**k her!. 

See? I really want to change back but that must be the old me that I'm letting go of. The nice guy. I'm not saying nasty guy is here but it's more like "f**k you I've had enough" guy has arrived - at last. 

Normally I would have written some beautiful words, bought flowers. But I have done virtually nothing since comforting her after the night duty doctor rang with the bad news 3 nights ago.

I didn't even go up to her Mum's place yesterday as asked to help find some things the old fella may have hidden. I let her know it would be best and later after she split in bitter silence I went to my Mum's instead.

And I am finding it hard to turn this ship around, to be nice. Maybe when the wayward gambling addict brother and her Mum arrive today for a few hours it will prove to be an ice breaker. Tell you what - when the well wishers drop in we can sure act normal.

All that has happened in the almost 3 months since DDay is that I became a bloodhound and she went mostly silent because she couldn't face my depth of despair, roller coaster emotions and rage. 

Her default position has been limited remorse with a mountain of defensive manoeuvrings. She is unable to act any other way and I have had the blinkers removed, albeit slowly, to see who I am really dealing with. That is the shock - the stranger in the room.

If she had been genuinely and regularly remorseful despite the operation and the whatever excuses then I think that I could build on it but it is just not there. And as she stated it up front after DDay - "If you expect me to come sobbing or crawl then you have...." There's some truth for you, the built up resentment overshadowing everything and anything.

Plan? Move right now like Nucking Futs says? She's got the moola, she should move ASAP but she will not and the alternative to that is the single bed in a strange house 15 minutes away. 

Why should I move? My plan is to get a full time job and just tell her that I have a job and she can make arrangements to get the children to school before she goes to work because I will be out the door making a buck.

Cue "but you are still there"! Yes, we need to separate.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Example of sarcasm (or what WS generally terms snide remarks). My WS was explaining to our son how the eulogy will be split up among various members of the family and how she and myself will speak. My son asked her what will we say. I said " I know what I'd like to tell them". WS's bitter expression followed and that is how it has been since the Cops showed and I went into this post AVO trigger zone that I'm still in.
> 
> But as I previously said things have gotten progressively worse in the last few weeks. And I think it is primarily because I am expected to get over it, that I have been doing the heavy lifting and snooping and I'm just worn out from the whole analytical shebang and what I can see she is.
> 
> Even here at 6.19am I have these feelings and thoughts which no person should have. I resent my WS, I resent her silence, the bitterness like a 180 that she is now enacting because I have been so "callous" - f**k her!.
> 
> See? I really want to change back but that must be the old me that I'm letting go of. The nice guy. I'm not saying nasty guy is here but it's more like "f**k you I've had enough" guy has arrived - at last.
> 
> Normally I would have written some beautiful words, bought flowers. But I have done virtually nothing since comforting her after the night duty doctor rang with the bad news 3 nights ago.
> 
> I didn't even go up to her Mum's place yesterday as asked to help find some things the old fella may have hidden. I let her know it would be best and later after she split in bitter silence I went to my Mum's instead.
> 
> And I am finding it hard to turn this ship around, to be nice. Maybe when the wayward gambling addict brother and her Mum arrive today for a few hours it will prove to be an ice breaker. Tell you what - when the well wishers drop in we can sure act normal.
> 
> All that has happened in the almost 3 months since DDay is that I became a bloodhound and she went mostly silent because she couldn't face my depth of despair, roller coaster emotions and rage.
> 
> Her default position has been limited remorse with a mountain of defensive manoeuvrings. She is unable to act any other way and I have had the blinkers removed, albeit slowly, to see who I am really dealing with. That is the shock - the stranger in the room.
> 
> If she had been genuinely and regularly remorseful despite the operation and the whatever excuses then I think that I could build on it but it is just not there. And as she stated it up front after DDay - "If you expect me to come sobbing or crawl then you have...." There's some truth for you, the built up resentment overshadowing everything and anything.
> 
> Plan? Move right now like Nucking Futs says? She's got the moola, she should move ASAP but she will not and the alternative to that is the single bed in a strange house 15 minutes away.
> 
> Why should I move? My plan is to get a full time job and just tell her that I have a job and she can make arrangements to get the children to school before she goes to work because I will be out the door making a buck.
> 
> Cue "but you are still there"! *Yes, we need to separate.*


You need to read Northern Monkeys thread. He did the single bed in the rented room for a while, and while he's still not in the best financial shape right now he's in a much better place mentally and he just got a new job. 

Listen, you're swirling around the toilet bowl. Just spinning 'round and 'round, not advancing, afraid to go down the drain. But once you go ahead and go down the drain you find it's just a short trip through a sewer to get to an ocean of possibilities. :smthumbup:

I was giggling while writing that. :lol:


----------



## LostViking

Like Nemo!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Northern Monkey

An analogy that helped me was that I was desperately clinging to a ledge. I was terrified of letting go. I didn't want to fall.

One day I dared looked down and the ground was just inches below.

Your turn.

Just because you've always put up with abuse, doesn't mean you always have to.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> *. . . My plan is to get a full time job and just tell her that I have a job and she can make arrangements to get the children to school before she goes to work because I will be out the door making a buck . . .*


Excellent! Now you're talking.


----------



## Horizon

By the way does anyone know anything about Social Cam on FB? I ask this question because I noticed that the POSOM along with 2 others is listed as "Following" my WS. 

Would this be recent or from previous contact as to my knowledge she has not had contact since March. I think it is old contact data, there is no date - does it mean that they are in contact via this platform. Haven't questioned her yet.

I posted this in the Men's section under "PAP (Post Affair Paranoia)". Just wondering, still snooping


----------



## Will_Kane

Socialcam is a mobile social video application for iPhone and Android, that was launched March 7, 2011. It allows users to capture and share videos online and on mobile, as well as via Facebook, Twitter, and other social networks. By July 2012, the application passed 16 million downloads.

With many millions of downloads, Socialcam is the free and easy way make and share videos with friends and family from your iPhone. Now with vintage video filters!


NYTimes: “The most talked about video app”



Features:

...

✔ Private accounts and private videos

✔ Vintage and experimental video filters

✔ Share to Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Email/SMS

✔ Fast upload in the background (no spinners)

✔ Videos stored in the cloud

✔ Watch on any smartphone, computer, or tablet

✔ Upload existing videos from your camera roll

✔ Browse, like, and comment on friends’ videos

✔ Instantly notified when your friends take videos

✔ Live feed of your friend's favorite videos See More


----------



## Horizon

Thanks for this, I looked it up - but can anyone tell me, if it states on Social Cam (on FB) that "Currently you have 3 followers" (which includes the POSOM) does that mean that it is happening right now or has happened within the last few days? 

I know that this is an Iphone App - however her Iphone does not show that she has installed the App. Though I guess she may have been using it and subsequently dumped it and FB is just showing the embers. Anyone able to untie this knot? She does have Instagram on her Iphone but it needs a login.

PAP (Post Affair Paranoia)


----------



## Ovid

It means they can see what she posts. It could have happened at any time. 

IMHO your W shouldn't have a FB account... js


----------



## Horizon

Ovid said:


> It means they can see what she posts. It could have happened at any time.
> 
> IMHO your W shouldn't have a FB account... js


OK thanks Ovid, but they have both de-friended months ago. Is this a way around this or something?


----------



## Will_Kane

Horizon said:


> OK thanks Ovid, but they have both de-friended months ago. Is this a way around this or something?


Social Cam is not Facebook. It is an app that can be used with Facebook.

De-friending (on Facebook) is different than blocking. Depending on your privacy settings, people you've de-friended can still see your Facebook and you theirs. People you've blocked theoretically cannot. Of course, you can always open another account or use someone else's.

Social Cam has a way to prevent people from seeing your stuff. It doesn't appear she is preventing him from seeing her stuff if he is still listed as following her.

You can't prevent them from communicating, or even catch them doing it, unless you are with her 24/7. There are just too many ways for them to do it and not get caught, unless they get sloppy. Your wife is sloppy.

I recommend you stop worrying about her leaving you. Focus on yourself, being completely independent of her, getting a job, letting her worry more about the kids, like you posted earlier.


----------



## lordmayhem

Will_Kane said:


> De-friending (on Facebook) is different than blocking. Depending on your privacy settings, people you've de-friended can still see your Facebook and you theirs. People you've blocked theoretically cannot. Of course, you can always open another account or use someone else's.


:iagree:

De-friending is not enough. They have to be blocked.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks all. It is one of those things that gets blown up due to the trauma of this. Obviously I can't stop anyone doing anything they want to do. It is just the enormous doubt that lingers.

Anyway here is an update ie grist for the mill....

My accommodation opp got put on hold when my very christian "savior" informed me that the room was occupied by a relative from OS. I have met this lady so it is no bull dust story. No probs.

Here's something. Because of the heated battles in the past we reached an agreement where we would avoid it, even to the point of continuing e-mail dialogue to lessen disruptions at home. 

I received an e-mail from her the day after her father's funeral suggesting I might consider moving out because of my explosive anger. I knocked that on the head and brought the whole thing to a level place describing how we both needed to communicate; that her remaining silent was perpetuating the whole thing. So I have kept my rage in check for 5 days but in the last 24 hours the questions keep circling and I can feel the frustration rising, the frustration which leads to anger.

Yes, forget about her, get on with your life, fixing you etc but the questions remain. So I thought the best thing was to calmly tell her that I have questions that I want answers to. I diligently kept emotion out of it and watched it all unfold exactly to plan, just like every other time.

First came the sigh, this after I explained that I had questions and if necessary I would be happy to e-mail them so she could answer them at her leisure. I noticed that she was quickly undermining my approach and then going on the defensive. I kept calm and reminded her I was doing that as agreed but she was mightily pissed off.

What followed was a WS's masterclass in shutting down communication.

I'm happy to e-mail them to you

Great, that will be fun at work tomorrow, just what I need

Well, you don't want to answer them here.

No, not now, I just got home.

Fine, I just want you to understand that because we are keeping the peace these questions don't just evaporate. I've told you that. I thought we agreed that communication is the key if we want to work this out.

Jesus!, our daughter has got her friend over!

Yeah, I know, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just talking to you.

Whenever you do this I just freeze, it just comes out of nowhere....

Well that's because....

See, you wont let me finish, you always do this....

I'm trying to explain to you that this situation has thrown the rule book out the....

You won't listen, you won't let me finish!

OK, what do you want to say.

Oh right, right....

Seriously, go ahead, what do you want to say?

I'm not having this conversation now!

I'm just telling you that communication is the key, I need questions answered, even the most minor thing, it will help me fill out the picture. 

I won't be able to answer all your questions.

Yeah, I know, look I can't make you answer any questions but I'm going to ask them anyway. If you don't answer them then I'll deal with that.

What does that mean?

I'm trying to communicate with you as we discussed last Friday. Everything has been going pretty well since then. But you can't expect this to blow over. I know you want to forget it but that won't happen.

I got over it ages ago!

(Biting my tongue) OK I know you keep saying that but I haven't alright. That's why I'm doing this so I can try and figure this out and fill in some blank spots. If I can get these questions answered and squared away that's got to be a good thing right?

Your emotions are either up here or down here, you explode, I don't know when you are going to ask questions, you keep shoving them in my face, you won't listen....

See you are bringing down the shutters, this is what I'm talking about.

Yes

OK, well, I'll just e-mail them to you. Is tomorrow OK?

I don't know, I've got work to do.

Well when is a good time, a week, a month? It's got to be dealt with at some point.

Send them, go on, send them!

I'm not going to argue with you but I will ask you questions, whether you answer them is up to you.

Great timing, great timing! Thanks! (referring to her Fathers funeral from last week)

Don't try that, I won't cop that. That it is beneath you


----------



## Northern Monkey

I think your need for answers from her is only holding you back tbh.


----------



## Everafter2013

Hi Horizon,

What are you afraid of? 

Please sit down and really think about it. 

You are procrastinating, and you procrastinate by obsessing about your WW and the OM. 

I just go through this thread by clicking every 10-pages. You are on the same thing for months. You are obsessing, my friend. It is clear, your wife is a unrepentant cheater. If you dissect every single emails they have ever exchanged, you will come to the same conclusion. You will not get a different answer. 

You can ask her until the cow comes home, read your latest post again, you go round and round in circle. Pointless.

So the real questions now, what are you going to do about it? What is holding you back from doing what you know you have to do?


----------



## Rugs

Yep, she is done. It irritates me reading the exchange so I have to imagine she has had her fill.

What is the saying? Go dark? 180? Anyway, go for a jog to release some tension and ignore your wife completely. 

She does not want to reconcile so she does not want to answer your questions. Move on and take care of yourself. Be a good dad and you will come out ahead.


----------



## turnera

IIWY, I would just go to her and tell her you are ready to help her pack her stuff up, as she is showing no intention of putting YOUR needs first, given what she has done to you. IF she says nothing, go get the luggage and return. If she still says nothing, go to the bedroom and start packing. She needs to see you aren't going to accept the rugsweeping.


----------



## Horizon

The bit I haven't included is that she approached me about 20 minutes later and apologised and said she automatically gets very defensive whenever I want answers and that it was wrong and that she would try and answer any questions I put to her. She then kissed me and apologised again. She was halfway through her first drink at that point. Lucky me!


----------



## Northern Monkey

Please tell me the "lucky me" wasn't serious!


----------



## Horizon

Northern Monkey said:


> Please tell me the "lucky me" wasn't serious!


My dodgy sarcastic humor. What is funny is how in this limbo land when something genuinely affectionate happens you do appreciate it but you also cringe


----------



## Horizon

OK TAMers, is this appropriate? In my snooping on my WS's work laptop I read more recent communication between her and an interstate work colleague. 

This bloke and my WS have need for e-mail contact only from what I know doing their sort of work - though there may be the odd social phone call here and there. Just as I did when I was in management years ago.

I did notice that there was some group e-mails between certain staff members before last Xmas, including this bloke and my WS, which were just some shared jokes. 

He then flew to the work Xmas party in Sydney at which a humorous photo was taken where it appeared that his hand was touching her breast (it wasn't, but the photo went around for a laugh - no harm done). They had their arms around each others shoulders. Truly harmless IMO - except for the vibe it illicits since DDay.

Anyway there has been no contact (via e-mail anyway) since Dec 2012 but I tonight discovered some e-mail contact from mid June 2013. It started as a group e-mail again as before but then branched away to just the 2 of them.

In these messages she talked about using crutches and how they were painful but at least she was building her upper body. He then turned that comment into a typical bloke remark saying "Well at least your husband will enjoy being lady manhandled"" to which she replied "Everyman's fantasy right?" and which he then replied "Sorry I took so long to reply - I was fantasising...about lunch"

2 weeks later in June he asked her if he would see her in the office as he was coming up to Sydney. She said yes, they talked a little about her operation and then she suggested they catch up for lunch as she's had seen him for so long (7 months) and she like to have a chat. He said he would try but he had to see her boss. She made a remark like "Oh, right, see if I care then" Obviously a little more flirty play-acting.

His response was again about her injured foot to which she replied she couldn't wait to get out of flat shoes and into high heels. His response to that was "it will be nice to see you in some lady shoes again" and "It's been a while you obviously don't know how to dial my number"

She replied "You never answer your phone, you are always out of the office or on holidays - great job!"

She has mentioned nothing about this to me, and I smelt a rat back around DDay when I was snooping more intently. 

Should I be worried about this now that I know what I know about my WS? Or is this just harmless flirting? My gut say no and my gut also says WARNING!!! AFFAIR POTENTIAL!!!!

And to think I told her she should let me know if she is meeting up with any bloke I don't know. Then again I don't know if the lunch went ahead. Hmmmm....


----------



## Robsia

There is no such thing as harmless flirting in this situation.

I would blow my top if my WH was flirting with some woman he worked with and arranging cosy lunch dates with her to 'catch up'.


----------



## Horizon

Robsia said:


> There is no such thing as harmless flirting in this situation.
> 
> I would blow my top if my WH was flirting with some woman he worked with and arranging cosy lunch dates with her to 'catch up'.


Thanks Robsia and more to the point - it really sucks, the entitlement yet again. She will never be the WS who comes on bended knee to plead for forgiveness. She needs the attention to feel good, to feel loved, to feel whatever and it has nought to do with our wasteland last few years that all LT relationships suffer. 

It's all about her using up those precious few years before menopause, before the wrinkles, while she still looks halfway decent and the fish will still bite.

I have all the early correspondence after DDay where she made all the promises, nay! a guarantee!!, she would do ANYTHING!. Nothing but BS from the mouth of a cheater. How best to deal with this hmmm?


----------



## crazyace

Dear Horizon,

So after all this, that you know of, after the affair, after the new potential one starting (here I am assuming that this is a recent communication you read !) ... why are you still with her ?
She will nor change and keep cheating and hurting you .. I think you have to let her go ..!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Thanks Robsia and more to the point - it really sucks, the entitlement yet again. She will never be the WS who comes on bended knee to plead for forgiveness. She needs the attention to feel good, to feel loved, to feel whatever and it has nought to do with our wasteland last few years that all LT relationships suffer.
> 
> It's all about her using up those precious few years before menopause, before the wrinkles, while she still looks halfway decent and the fish will still bite.
> 
> I have all the early correspondence after DDay where she made all the promises, nay! a guarantee!!, she would do ANYTHING!. Nothing but BS from the mouth of a cheater. *How best to deal with this hmmm?*


Horizon, honestly, you make me want to poke myself in the eyes.

The advice for this is the same advice you've been getting for months. It's the advice that gives you the best chance of saving this relationship, while at the same time giving you the chance to clear your head enough to determine if it's really worth saving.

It's simple. Move out. Give her the opportunity to see what she has to lose. I know it may not be easy, but take a job and move out. Don't worry about the kids getting to and from school, let her handle that. Show her what it will mean to be a single mother. Let her understand exactly how much you've been doing for her and the kids by forcing her to do it herself.


----------



## Nucking Futs

One other thing. You haven't been fighting to save your relationship. There's a difference between fighting _with_ your partner and fighting _for_ your partner.

What you've been doing is causing more damage to the relationship. All the fighting coupled with still being there to take care of her is only deepening her contempt for you. 

You can see that what you've been doing is not helping. It's time to change it up and do something else. Follow the advice so many have given you over the last few months.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> Thanks Robsia and more to the point - it really sucks, the entitlement yet again. *She will never be the WS who comes on bended knee to plead for forgiveness.* She *needs the attention* to feel good, to feel loved, to feel whatever and it has nought to do with our wasteland last few years that all LT relationships suffer.
> 
> It's all about her *using up those precious few years before menopause*, before the wrinkles, while she still looks halfway decent and the *fish will still bite*.
> 
> I have all the early correspondence after DDay where she made all the promises, nay! a guarantee!!, she would do ANYTHING!. Nothing but BS from the mouth of a cheater. *How best to deal with this* hmmm?


 You really have to ask how to deal with a wife who wants to sleep around on you while keeping you waiting at home?

You DO have the right to expect a wife who wants ONLY YOU, you know. Go out and find one.


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> take a job and move out. Don't worry about the kids getting to and from school, let her handle that. Show her what it will mean to be a single mother. Let her understand exactly how much you've been doing for her and the kids by forcing her to do it herself.


 Exactly. You are nothing more than the curtains on the wall now, the nanny, the cook, who she pays for.

You stopped being her husband long ago.

Don't you have ANY self respect left?


----------



## ArmyofJuan

She has shown you that she can't be trusted so yea, she lost the right to "harmlessly flirt" because she is known to take it to the next level. Considering her past it is very disrespectful to be talking to an OM like that. 

My FWW wouldn't dream and acting "flirty" with another man today, she doesn't want to give the impression she is leading them on after what she went through. If your W was remorseful she would think the same way.

She doesn't respect you, you are wasting your time with someone like this. There's a million other women out there willing to take her place, go out and find one.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



ArmyofJuan said:


> There's a million other women out there willing to take her place, go out and find one.


Ain't that the truth.


----------



## sandc

I agree. Once a spouse has become a WS, there is no such thing as harmless flirting. I believe with a WS it is call trolling.


----------



## Acabado

Why bother confronting this? If you were near close to anything resembling a reconciliation it would be necessary to call her on her poor boundarires and the need to strengthen them but you are not at all.
IMHO you should just take note as a new confirmation on who she is, as another reason to solidify your need to change your life by getting out of this toxic marriage.

So... man, any update on your "getting doks in a row" front?


----------



## Horizon

OK - so what would you do right now people? My gut says confront. She is demonstrating that she has no concept of boundaries and is effectively acting like a single person.

She should have mentioned this up front. The fact is she didn't, whether the lunch happened or not, and she should have. 

It demonstrates that part of her thinking where she believes she is entitles to a private life (if I can put it that way) where she does not have to answer to me or anyone.

Not long ago she said to me "you don't know what it's like to be free". In response to our discussion about the awful upbringing I had. Shoot, that remark is so loaded now.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Horizon,

I haven't read your entire thread. Looks like the last two pages are about her and the OM hooking up again, and everyone telling you that it is over.

At this point there really isn't anything to confront her about. Just let her know you know what is going on and be done with her. It is miserable to see people living through this stuff. She is not serious about R or the email flirting would not have happened.

The tone I get is that you are a bit scared to live on your own. It is mentioned that you need to get a job. Start doing something in that direction everyday. 

End this miserable life with her, and find a new one.

Good luck!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> OK - so what would you do right now people? My gut says confront. She is demonstrating that she has no concept of boundaries and is effectively acting like a single person.
> 
> She should have mentioned this up front. The fact is she didn't, whether the lunch happened or not, and she should have.
> 
> It demonstrates that part of her thinking where she believes she is entitles to a private life (if I can put it that way) where she does not have to answer to me or anyone.
> 
> Not long ago she said to me "you don't know what it's like to be free". In response to our discussion about the awful upbringing I had. Shoot, that remark is so loaded now.


Your gut says confront. This is the same gut you've been following that's been keeping you living in your own personal purgatory watching your SO eat cake. Ignore your gut, it's been co-opted by your SO and is no longer on your side.

What do you do? You have 2 options:

1 Say nothing. Get a job and a new place to live. Move out. When she asks why now, then you tell her the last straw was the email flirting with this guy. 

2 When she gets home from work give her a big smoochie on the hiney and apologize for all the trouble you've given her over her love life and explain that you now realize that what she does with other men is none of your business. Promise to be a good boy as long as she continues to take care of you.


----------



## LostViking

Sh!t or get off the pot.


----------



## treyvion

Nucking Futs said:


> Your gut says confront. This is the same gut you've been following that's been keeping you living in your own personal purgatory watching your SO eat cake. Ignore your gut, it's been co-opted by your SO and is no longer on your side.
> 
> What do you do? You have 2 options:
> 
> 1 Say nothing. Get a job and a new place to live. Move out. When she asks why now, then you tell her the last straw was the email flirting with this guy.
> 
> 2 When she gets home from work give her a big smoochie on the hiney and apologize for all the trouble you've given her over her love life and explain that you now realize that what she does with other men is none of your business. Promise to be a good boy as long as she continues to take care of you.


Horizions STBXW is paying the bills?


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> Horizions STBXW is paying the bills?


Mostly, I don't get monetary reward for the hours I spend kicking the sh!t around her, raising my children and everything else. I have part time work but it's intermittent. But not for long, I'm looking at 2 full time options 2day, however there may be a 6 month College training period etc so I have to bide my time.


----------



## Horizon

STBXW should be STBXP (partner - as in defacto). 

With the emphasis on "X" eh?


----------



## AlphaProvider

Horizon said:


> Mostly, I don't get monetary reward for the hours I spend kicking the sh!t around her, raising my children and everything else. I have part time work but it's intermittent. But not for long, I'm looking at 2 full time options 2day, however there may be a 6 month College training period etc so I have to bide my time.


That's why I said STBXW, because regardless of what happens it will be an ex. Actually it is an ex that you currently still live with.

Try not to complain about this, part of complaining is adding to TAM about the situation. Start a new situation(s) for yourself and talk about and do that.

The one with her is dead.


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> Mostly, I don't get monetary reward for the hours I spend kicking the sh!t around her, raising my children and everything else. I have part time work but it's intermittent. But not for long, I'm looking at 2 full time options 2day, however there may be a 6 month College training period etc so I have to bide my time.


Great news. Thank's God.
That's the path. Meanwhile start practicing the give a sh!t attitude, with time it will be the jerknee reaction.


----------



## alte Dame

You are pushing a very big boulder uphill with her alcoholism and cheating. I'm sure it's exhausting for you.

Why not give up the burden and seriously look to the future without her? Even if she were committed to reconciliation, it wouldn't be a healthy one because of her drinking. Stay serious with the job search so that you can let go of her. Do this healthy thing for yourself and your children.


----------



## AlphaProvider

Acabado said:


> Great news. Thank's God.
> That's the path. Meanwhile start practicing the give a sh!t attitude, with time it will be the jerknee reaction.


Give a $hit about yourself, and give a $hit about your life. Your thing with her is over.

Do not keep talking about it, we need to hear of all the constructive and rebound things you've done for yourself.


----------



## jay_gatsby

Lovemytruck said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I haven't read your entire thread. Looks like the last two pages are about her and the OM hooking up again, and everyone telling you that it is over.
> 
> At this point there really isn't anything to confront her about. Just let her know you know what is going on and be done with her. It is miserable to see people living through this stuff. She is not serious about R or the email flirting would not have happened.
> 
> The tone I get is that you are a bit scared to live on your own. It is mentioned that you need to get a job. Start doing something in that direction everyday.
> 
> End this miserable life with her, and find a new one.
> 
> Good luck!


:iagree: I wonder if anyone has analyzed this forum and has a breakdown of what % try to R, are successful due to encouragement by posters, and % try to R and are not, bc of the posters telling them to man up, move on, do a 180, read MMMSL, or whatever.... is it 50-50?


----------



## Horizon

Lovemytruck said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I haven't read your entire thread. Looks like the last two pages are about her and the OM hooking up again, and everyone telling you that it is over.
> 
> At this point there really isn't anything to confront her about. Just let her know you know what is going on and be done with her. It is miserable to see people living through this stuff. She is not serious about R or the email flirting would not have happened.
> 
> The tone I get is that you are a bit scared to live on your own. It is mentioned that you need to get a job. Start doing something in that direction everyday.
> 
> End this miserable life with her, and find a new one.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks, this is about some other dude she has contact with through work. Same sh!t, same smell.


----------



## WyshIknew

Tell this new dude to feck off?

Then ask him for his wifes email or phone number so you can relay his texts etc to her?

Some say not to contact the AP but I think it is in the manner of contact.

A, Please leave my wife alone, she means the world to me.

B, Back off now pal or I will gut you like a fish. (figuratively speaking)

World of difference.

When he backs off (if) and says "oh there was nothing in it honestly. It's just work stuff'" " Then say, "Oh that's good, your wife will obviously not mind the texts etc being sent to her then.", "What's her number"?


----------



## Racer

Nucking Futs said:


> What do you do? You have 2 options:
> 
> 1 Say nothing. Get a job and a new place to live. Move out. When she asks why now, then you tell her the last straw was the email flirting with this guy.


I personally like the variation of this where you don't tell her why and leave her guessing. You know how that feels. All communication becomes divorce and kid related. Basically you just dump her without giving her a reason why.... She gets to spend time figuring out what was the final straw and never really knowing. Eats 'em up inside, slowly and painfully. They are “entitled to answers after all you’ve put her through”... 

That's the thing with 'entitled princess types'. “Control”; they like to be the masters. By cutting her off from even the slightest bit of information, it will drive her bonkers. “How dare you! I deserve an explanation!” “Um... no you don’t...(and hang up)”.

Even if you stay; It is a valid card to play. You owe her nothing and never did. So give her all she deserves; Nothing at all. The way it usually plays out is she’ll start doing things to re-establish her control over you; Little test. Don’t play that game. Just cut her out and do what you want. You don’t even have to be nice or courteous as those are gifts to show respect. Have none; treat her as the ‘nothing she is’. From now on, it is about how you will be treated as a human being... Accept nothing less and rip into ANYONE for crossing those lines with you whether you are married to it or not. I like to think of it; “Would I tolerate this from an ex-wife?” And if no... then out came the stick (versus a carrot for things I liked). It works.

The minute you stop thinking of yourself as a husband, is the minute you are truly free of really caring or not what or how you treat this person and what they think of it. They are just another person, an individual, you have to deal with. “Our life” dies and is replaced with “My life” and what you want out of it. She isn’t going to like that at all.... So what?


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> I personally like the variation of this where you don't tell her why and leave her guessing. You know how that feels. All communication becomes divorce and kid related. Basically you just dump her without giving her a reason why.... She gets to spend time figuring out what was the final straw and never really knowing. Eats 'em up inside, slowly and painfully. They are “entitled to answers after all you’ve put her through”...
> 
> That's the thing with 'entitled princess types'. “Control”; they like to be the masters. By cutting her off from even the slightest bit of information, it will drive her bonkers. “How dare you! I deserve an explanation!” “Um... no you don’t...(and hang up)”.
> 
> Even if you stay; It is a valid card to play. You owe her nothing and never did. So give her all she deserves; Nothing at all. The way it usually plays out is she’ll start doing things to re-establish her control over you; Little test. Don’t play that game. Just cut her out and do what you want. You don’t even have to be nice or courteous as those are gifts to show respect. Have none; treat her as the ‘nothing she is’. From now on, it is about how you will be treated as a human being... Accept nothing less and rip into ANYONE for crossing those lines with you whether you are married to it or not. I like to think of it; “Would I tolerate this from an ex-wife?” And if no... then out came the stick (versus a carrot for things I liked). It works.
> 
> The minute you stop thinking of yourself as a husband, is the minute you are truly free of really caring or not what or how you treat this person and what they think of it. They are just another person, an individual, you have to deal with. “Our life” dies and is replaced with “My life” and what you want out of it. She isn’t going to like that at all.... So what?


This is very interesting Racer. I think I have had the blinkers on with regards to control for a long time. I never really considered it which may be an issue from my own upbringing - a father who so scared & dominated us that I rationalise control as a the norm (just a thought).

Something completely different unfolded last night. I'm basically in 180 at the moment and have been rising very early - around 4am. Anyway my WS informed me last night that she hated that I got up so early, that i wasn't there in bed. It made her feel insecure and she wanted me to try and stay longer - even if I needed to turn on the lamp to read or - get this - hit her up for fun times. That's bull of course, it's never worked in 18 years. Bottom line she was half inebriated when she expressed all this.

Anyway I asked her what's up with all this sudden "I need you stuff" (I didn't put it quite like that but you get my drift) and I also said that it seemed a bit odd regarding sex in the middle of the night because nothing was happening in that department at all and hadn't for a month.

She said - "I'm struggling with some demons at the moment, it's getting close" What demons? I wondered and then she was saying that the day for sex was "getting close". 

"That sounds a bit ummm....what do you mean?" I asked.

"I know, I know, I think about it everyday, I should be doing more for you. We're getting close"

So this morning before work she said to me that what she meant by "demons". She said she feels crowded in by everything, she doesn't have any time for herself, every one wants something from her etc.

OK, for years I used to deal with this by taking the children out for a day or half a day so she could just chill out. it was either a Saturday or a Sunday. This is nothing new, but it hasn't been the case in the last few years as the kids have matured and there has been a lot more sport etc.

More control?


----------



## turnera

You change...she grasps.

Nothing new.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Horizon,

Last post for my day.

The more you realize she is all about her, the more you will let go. 

The more you let go, the faster and harder she will pursue.

The harder she chases you the faster you will realize that she is desperate. You don't want desperate. You want desirable. You want attractive. This is not it.

You need to move on with this one. Start looking outward. I was there. It is good to move on, and get this bad cycle with your WW over. You will find peace when you finally let go and move on.

Get that job, file, and be the man of your destiny.


----------



## Horizon

Lovemytruck said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Last post for my day.
> 
> The more you realize she is all about her, the more you will let go.
> 
> The more you let go, the faster and harder she will pursue.
> 
> The harder she chases you the faster you will realize that she is desperate. You don't want desperate. You want desirable. You want attractive. This is not it.
> 
> You need to move on with this one. Start looking outward. I was there. It is good to move on, and get this bad cycle with your WW over. You will find peace when you finally let go and move on.
> 
> Get that job, file, and be the man of your destiny.


-----

It's sadly so true. I feel sorry for our children, they are so happy. WE are all getting on fine except Mum & Dad - still talking a bit but...well it's gone. The arguments have stopped, I made sure of that but there is still some sting in the tail.

After all that I have shared here I am finally seeing her for what she is. That "letting go" is a funny thing, it's almost as though it is happening despite myself.

She drank excessively the last 2 nights and then came down with a massive migraine last night that kept her off work today. So she's not drinking tonight - WOW! 

Since she lost her father 3 weeks back it's started a new angle. The "I don't know what's wrong with me" angle - or as I like to think of it - "I now have an open ended pass to keep doing f**k all".


----------



## Shaggy

Her stuff about everyone wanting something from her is her fishing for you to not hold her accountable or responsible for your relationship or her duties to it.

What I mean, is its her fishing to get you to back away and not ask her to hold up her end.

She sees the 180 as you putting pressure on her for her to step up and put effort into you as your partner.

Good job, on not taking the bait.


----------



## Horizon

Shaggy said:


> Her stuff about everyone wanting something from her is her fishing for you to not hold her accountable or responsible for your relationship or her duties to it.
> 
> What I mean, is its her fishing to get you to back away and not ask her to hold up her end.
> 
> She sees the 180 as you putting pressure on her for her to step up and put effort into you as your partner.
> 
> Good job, on not taking the bait.


Spot on Shaggy - embarrassing to witness and a true reflection of her. To think the number of times in the last 14 weeks I have told her that she is not stepping up to the plate and there has always been something in the way.

I mean sure, you busted your foot but you still have all your senses. And OK your Father passed on and you are struggling with why you are not mourning but....

See Shaggy, I've told her outright - you aren't doing anything because there's nothing in you to give. You no longer have what ever it is you had for me (God knows what it was - love I suppose, seems a million years ago).

She rejects this outright and hates me putting it to her. Do you think it's simply that she fears facing the unfamiliar, a life apart?
It's like she expects me to just hang in there while she works out whatever these "demons" are.

(punting the drink would be a great place to start)


----------



## turnera

More like she's never had to stand up and own her shyte. Some people just skate through life without the humility, the integrity - as long as things are going good, you look great. If things aren't going good, you scramble for ways to deflect it.


----------



## Racer

And yet a different take... I saw those words of everyone needing or expecting something from her as a potential issue with external validation. I think you've read NMMNG Horizon, so it's like the NG thing of trying to be all those things you believe everyone else thinks you should be..... and never really finding yourself or what you want.


----------



## Shaggy

Alcohol is a depressant. This doesn't just mean it makes you sleepy. It has a lingering affect on your mood even after you've sobbed up.

I've noticed that my own mood can sometimes get negative and seeing things only as problems after drinking too much.

I suspect that a big part of her demons are being made worse and harder for her to handle entirely because of the drinking.

It's not enough to sober up, what's needed is a long term drying out to help the brain and her emotions to reset back to a happier state. That could btw be weeks or months to fully cleanup and reset.


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> And yet a different take... I saw those words of everyone needing or expecting something from her as a potential issue with external validation. I think you've read NMMNG Horizon, so it's like the NG thing of trying to be all those things you believe everyone else thinks you should be..... and never really finding yourself or what you want.


Racer, sorry, I'm a little slow on the uptake. Could you break this down a little. Appreciated.


----------



## turnera

Racer said:


> And yet a different take... I saw those words of everyone needing or expecting something from her as a potential issue with external validation. I think you've read NMMNG Horizon, so it's like the NG thing of trying to be all those things you believe everyone else thinks you should be..... and never really finding yourself or what you want.


 It's possible. Many women grow up just intending to marry and raise kids and never take time to figure out if THEY matter, what THEY want - their identity IS the family.

That said, we don't know her history, and whether she's been an integrity-filled person and is only now just breaking down and missing the life she never lived, or whether she's been a User and avoided responsibility. Is she this way now because she's in trouble? Or is she in trouble because she's this way?


----------



## Racer

Ok... External validation. Basically, her self worth is tied up in how others see her. In each and every relationship, she believes they have certain expectations of her that she must live up to. So with the kiddo’s playdate mommy’s, she needs to look like a great mother. To her boss, a great employee. To you, a great wife. To her boyfriend, exciting and fun. Etc. If she lives up to what she believes each of these relationship want, she feels valued and special. So there’s this chameleon approach to life.

The problem. She can’t be a great wife and girlfriend at the same time. She can’t be a great worker without leaving the kids all day. She can’t be a ‘good girl’ and a h00ker in bed. So, she tries to balance it. That means she starts failing in some areas. That results in her feeling less special and more like a failure. Often blaming others for why she feels like that; After all, in her head they are your expectations of her. And on and on it goes feeling more and more like there’s a heavy weight on you and you can’t lift it back up. So, there’s some escapism.... Affairs are one way; She can be whomever she wants and forget about all her other roles. But it doesn’t last because it’s hard to trick yourself that much. But for a time, in your AP’s eyes, you are a special person instead of a failure at life. 

That is what you are competing against. That is why you should distance fast and force those “I failed” feelings upon her. Those feelings need to be strong enough that even the escape no longer works. It just makes her feel even more pathetic. 

And, if you want to R, you need to give her a way out. For me, that was going through the NMMNG program of how to find yourself, judge yourself, and get all this internally. Lead. Show her how it can be done. My wife is a smart cookie, so she began to see this new way of thinking and play with it. So it changed from allowing everyone else dictating who she was, to looking in the mirror and choosing for herself who she was going to be. I knew (and hoped) that in her heart, she wasn’t a bad person and wanted the same things out of life that I did. She doesn’t look to me to make it for her... She makes it herself and we share the road together.

edit; Oh, and btw, I see you doing this a lot too. Trying to be the 'good husband'. Why? When did being you become a bad thing?


----------



## Racer

Oh.. More thoughts on external validation. Say you have a belief about yourself. “I am a great worker!” You most likely seek out people who pat you on your back and tell you those things too. But what if you aren’t? Oh... easy. Play the pity card to people who really have no freaking clue how good or not you are at your job; Whine about work and the brutal corporate atmosphere keeping you chained down. And people are people; “Poor you. I bet you are great at your job. I know companies can be nasty.” They try to cheer you up by reinforcing your belief. And you feel better about yourself because “they get me”...

See how you aren’t really looking and judging yourself? You are making excuses why your greatness can’t shine and blaming others. And now, instead of looking how to better your situation and be a good worker, you are looking for supporting enabling friends who will buy into your excuses and relieve you of being responsible for your lot in life. 

Now imagine the difference that you might see if you just looked in the damn mirror and judged yourself. Are you or are you not a good worker? And then started working on those things you think you are failing on.... 

There is a difference between using relationships as a sounding board, and using them to validate or justify your thoughts. You can tell the difference because sounding board types are open to various ideas.... the validaters only want to hear the words that mirror their own thoughts.


----------



## Horizon

OK, I've just about had it, and of course is anyone surprised. Even my false Recon had the word hope attached to it - small as it was.

I'm doing great stuff with myself and my children, really working on things and not putting any pressure on my WS. Still doing my version of the 180 - no angst, not nasty. OK - all good (if that's possible).

So there are excellent days, sport days like this weekend, wonderful home cooked meals, some drinks with friends - genuine living IMO.

Cue the bedroom, I'm not pressuring, nothing like that. But....she has sent some signals recently. Remember - zero intimacy for 5 weeks. 

The moment arrives (IMO of course - stupid me) - nothing. Big fat nothing. The only thing fat in the room is....well you get the picture.

OK, I can't help it, I am not a robot. I have to ask - "What's up?"

Answer - "I don't know"

End of communication - I want you lot to absolutely go ballistic, get medieval on my ass, go for it - WTF is going on besides the f**king bleeding obvious????


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> OK, I've just about had it, and of course is anyone surprised. Even my false Recon had the word hope attached to it - small as it was.
> 
> I'm doing great stuff with myself and my children, really working on things and not putting any pressure on my WS. Still doing my version of the 180 - no angst, not nasty. OK - all good (if that's possible).
> 
> So there are excellent days, sport days like this weekend, wonderful home cooked meals, some drinks with friends - genuine living IMO.
> 
> Cue the bedroom, I'm not pressuring, nothing like that. But....she has sent some signals recently. Remember - zero intimacy for 5 weeks.
> 
> The moment arrives (IMO of course - stupid me) - nothing. Big fat nothing. The only thing fat in the room is....well you get the picture.
> 
> OK, I can't help it, I am not a robot. I have to ask - "What's up?"
> 
> Answer - "I don't know"
> 
> End of communication - I want you lot to absolutely go ballistic, get medieval on my ass, go for it - WTF is going on besides the f**king bleeding obvious????


I'm shocked, _SHOCKED_ I tell you! Who could have possibly foreseen this? 

Oh, yeah, _EVERYONE!_

You clearly have her right where she wants you. What's your status on moving out?


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> OK, I can't help it, I am not a robot. I have to ask - "What's up?"
> 
> Answer - "I don't know"
> 
> End of communication -


Well, for one thing...why end of communication?

What did YOU do to continue the conversation, to inform her that you expect sex to be part of the marriage by now, that you are getting frustrated, and wth is she thinking?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Well, for one thing...why end of communication?
> 
> What did YOU do to continue the conversation, to inform her that you expect sex to be part of the marriage by now, that you are getting frustrated, and wth is she thinking?


-----

I'm so glad you asked that T. 

BTW - End of Comm is my little end of post touch but relevant. I got up straight away, didn't say a word other than to myself "F**k it!"

I have been not trying to go down this path, not pushing the sex angle but sometimes it's just impossible. Right?

If you recall I have been getting some signals from her in the last few weeks where she demonstrates concern for our future and says she wants us to work it out and she does want sex and yes, as stupid as it sounds - "it's getting close" (the first bonk in "yonks" I presume - "Yonks" slang for ages) 

But really, she has had a few drinks on board each time so it's all maudlin BS particularly if nothing is happening. 

The fact is this morning, yet again, she can't say what is the problem, I get a small sentence reply as in "I don't know" and then I think - "end of communication". I've been avoiding conflict on this.

Yes, I deserve an answer. I think I have become a little confused as what action to take in this "false" Recon situation due to a few different POV's on TAM. Thinking, obviously incorrectly, that I didn't want to do any more damage (as if there is more to do). We are hanging on by a thread.

I reckon she wants to be single and f**k who she likes when it suits her, if at all. Maybe the cats will be enough company. In the meantime she puts out a few scraps of hope because for whatever reason she can't make it happen. Which leads me to paranoid speculation that she is recovering from something like an STD (mad thinking) or....f**k, who knows? I am frustrated beyond description.

A few weeks back at the start of this "stage" of - no intimacy even though intimacy is alluded to - when I was gently pressing the lack of "action" she said - "I don't care if I never have sex again". 

Could someone pls remind my WS what signal she is sending in those words. Relationship over it says to me. Or maybe she doesn't need to be reminded. Surely she couldn't be that cunning - playing a long game, surely not.

And I haven't even mentioned the end of year OS vacation we are meant to be taking. I just want it for my children. Can't see it as the beginning of something special with the WS.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Could someone pls remind my WS what signal she is sending in those words. Relationship over it says to me. Or maybe she doesn't need to be reminded. Surely she couldn't be that cunning - playing a long game, surely not.


I don't understand why you think she doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what she's doing, she's playing you like an accordion. And I don't mean that in a good way, if there is a good way to play an accordion

She believes she can signal anything she wants to you and it doesn't matter because you won't do anything but pout and whine. 

Are you going to prove her wrong, or continue to prove her right?

Are you going to move out?


----------



## turnera

Here is the action you take:

Wife, I deserve a wife who wants to have sex with me.

If you are unwilling or incapable of having sex with me, we have no future.

I'm moving on.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> I don't understand why you think she doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what she's doing, she's playing you like an accordion. And I don't mean that in a good way, if there is a good way to play an accordion
> 
> She believes she can signal anything she wants to you and it doesn't matter because you won't do anything but pout and whine.
> 
> Are you going to prove her wrong, or continue to prove her right?
> 
> Are you going to move out?


------

OK, let me get this right you think my idea, that she is in fact playing a game designed to make me make the decisions ie: move out, move into the spare room etc is her grand plan? That her silence, and snippets of hope are tactics to get me to end it??? Phuck that for starters!!!!


----------



## LostViking

I think if I read anymore of this thread I may have lapse into a coma...


----------



## r0r0bin

LostViking said:


> I think if I read anymore of this thread I may have lapse into a coma...


I Agree. This man has no stand point.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> ------
> 
> OK, let me get this right you think my idea, that she is in fact playing a game designed to make me make the decisions ie: move out, move into the spare room etc is her grand plan? That her silence, and snippets of hope are tactics to get me to end it??? Phuck that for starters!!!!


No, that's not even close. 

She has no grand plan, she's just enjoying making you dance and twist. You're no longer a man she loves, you're a toy she's playing with. You need to move out to take her toy away. Show her that you're still a man. Break her out of this thought process and make her miss you. One more time for emphasis:

_You need to make her miss you._

You need to move out. You need your own income. You need to 180 from a distance, not in the same house much less the same bed.

There are two things that could happen if you move out. One, she might realize what she's losing and finally start acting like she cares about you. You could have a shot at genuine R if this happens. Or, you might actually detach and find that you not only don't need her, that you're actually happier out on your own and not being toyed with. Or both. Regardless, you need to break the status quo.

Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. By that definition you're completely around the bend.


----------



## Horizon

So, she is a no good, low down mean alcoholic, cheating b**ch who is getting here rocks off watching me suffer? (when she is not distracted thinking about and setting up other men to make herself feel good & validated??)


----------



## Horizon

Furthermore I have completely lost sight of a what a happy healthy relationship looks or feels like - have I ever had one? I don't know, I just don't know.


----------



## Nucking Futs

And on that note I'm out.


----------



## Northern Monkey

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Horizon said:


> So, she is a no good, low down mean alcoholic, cheating b**ch who is getting here rocks off watching me suffer? (when she is not distracted thinking about and setting up other men to make herself feel good & validated??)


Pretty much.

Whether concious or not.

More to the point though. Who the F is Horizon? Do you have no interest in finding out?


----------



## Wazza

Horizon, I haven't followed your thread for a while and I am breaking one of my personal rules..I would normally read the entire thing before commenting, but I don't have the time right now. So I am going to put an idea forward in case it resonates.

And what I write next, others are going to immediately dismiss as crap. But so be it...I am sure it is not crap as a general principle, I just have no idea whether it applies in your case.

An affair is damaging to the BS but also the WS, It is entirely possible that your wife's attitude to sex is because she feels guilty. She has her own troubles and stresses over what she did.

Not a popular attitude around here. We are supposed to not care about the feelings of the WS. After all, they caused this mess and didn't care about your feelings when they were doing it.

I get why people think that. I am just not sure it is always the best strategy. My reconciliation involved elements of not tolerating unacceptable behaviour from my wife, but it also involved elements of supporting her in things that had hurt her..even when her wounds were self inflicted.

Now...even if what I just said resonates with you, I don't think you should immediately go on some charm offensive. My advice to you remains as it was before...stand on your own two feet, and do what you can to be independent of your wife economically and stronger emotionally.

You wil note that whether my hypothesis is true (she is suffering guilt) or Nucking Futs had nailed it (she is toying with you) the advice is the same. You need to get to where you can negotiate and work on the marriage from a position of strength.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I've been avoiding conflict on this.
> 
> Yes, I deserve an answer. I think I have become a little confused as what action to take in this "false" Recon situation due to a few different POV's on TAM. Thinking, obviously incorrectly, that I didn't want to do any more damage (as if there is more to do).


What am I missing? Why are YOU worried about doing more damage? Did you do something to her first? 

If not, then you are taking the wrong attitude about this and displaying a desperation to stay together that I'm sure she senses - and thus has no reason to move forward.

Your attitude SHOULD be 'wife, I'm giving this marriage X weeks (or X months). I need to see a different version of you, one that actually CARES about me and makes me FEEL cared for. I get that you have 'issues' and I'm willing to be patient while you work them out and even help you if I can - to a degree. But it takes real WORK on your part to change, just as I've worked hard to make myself a better person. If you're the same at the end of X weeks, then I'll just have to assume you're happy being in the position you're in. And I'll move on.'


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> ------
> 
> OK, let me get this right you think my idea, that she is in fact playing a game designed to make me make the decisions ie: move out, move into the spare room etc is her grand plan? That her silence, and snippets of hope are tactics to get me to end it??? Phuck that for starters!!!!


A lot of people do that subconsciously. They RUN. Not literally, but by not making decisions, by taking too long, by not discussing, by not sharing their feelings...the never learned good behavior growing up, so how could they know any better? That's where a therapist comes in - which she SHOULD be attending every single week, at this point.


----------



## alte Dame

Horizon said:


> Furthermore I have completely lost sight of a what a happy healthy relationship looks or feels like - have I ever had one? I don't know, I just don't know.


You may never have had a healthy relationship given her alcohol consumption. I don't think her different signals regarding sex (as well as other things) are particularly mysterious - she thinks and talks one way when she's drunk and another way when she's hungover & probably another way when she's completely sober. You don't know what kind of person she would be if she dried out. I'm sure whatever it is, it would be quite different from what you've had until now. (In all of these guises, though, she appears not to want sex with you - her talk about it changes, but not her actions.)

So..the answer is that you certainly don't know what a healthy relationship would be with her. You don't even know what sort of person she is without the alcohol. I doubt she knows anymore. If she dried out, she would probably be very surprised to experience how different her view of herself and her world would be.

I agree with the others here - you should work on yourself for yourself and your children. Making yourself more independent will both help you and make you more attractive to your WW. If she no longer finds you attractive and this feeling lasts and you are on your own for the future, at least you will have found your footing and the strength to move on without her.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> Horizon, I haven't followed your thread for a while and I am breaking one of my personal rules..I would normally read the entire thing before commenting, but I don't have the time right now. So I am going to put an idea forward in case it resonates.
> 
> And what I write next, others are going to immediately dismiss as crap. But so be it...I am sure it is not crap as a general principle, I just have no idea whether it applies in your case.
> 
> An affair is damaging to the BS but also the WS, It is entirely possible that your wife's attitude to sex is because she feels guilty. She has her own troubles and stresses over what she did.
> 
> Not a popular attitude around here. We are supposed to not care about the feelings of the WS. After all, they caused this mess and didn't care about your feelings when they were doing it.
> 
> I get why people think that. I am just not sure it is always the best strategy. My reconciliation involved elements of not tolerating unacceptable behaviour from my wife, but it also involved elements of supporting her in things that had hurt her..even when her wounds were self inflicted.
> 
> Now...even if what I just said resonates with you, I don't think you should immediately go on some charm offensive. My advice to you remains as it was before...stand on your own two feet, and do what you can to be independent of your wife economically and stronger emotionally.
> 
> You wil note that whether my hypothesis is true (she is suffering guilt) or Nucking Futs had nailed it (she is toying with you) the advice is the same. You need to get to where you can negotiate and work on the marriage from a position of strength.


Not going to dismiss your comments at all. Whether your hypothesis is correct or not your advice echoes what everyone else has been saying. He needs to concentrate on himself and stop engaging her. You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness. Whether that negotiation involves a divorce or a reconciliation doesn't matter right now.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



alte Dame said:


> You may never have had a healthy relationship given her alcohol consumption. I don't think her different signals regarding sex (as well as other things) are particularly mysterious - she thinks and talks one way when she's drunk and another way when she's hungover & probably another way when she's completely sober. You don't know what kind of person she would be if she dried out. I'm sure whatever it is, it would be quite different from what you've had until now. (In all of these guises, though, she appears not to want sex with you - her talk about it changes, but not her actions.)
> 
> So..the answer is that you certainly don't know what a healthy relationship would be with her. You don't even know what sort of person she is without the alcohol. I doubt she knows anymore. If she dried out, she would probably be very surprised to experience how different her view of herself and her world would be.
> 
> I agree with the others here - you should work on yourself for yourself and your children. Making yourself more independent will both help you and make you more attractive to your WW. If she no longer finds you attractive and this feeling lasts and you are on your own for the future, at least you will have found your footing and the strength to move on without her.


Also if she has been drinking for a while she may not ever display the person she might be when dried out. There is such a thing called stinkin thinkin that long term alcoholics have. It basically means there is never a time when alcohol doesn't affect their personality, attitudes and thoughts. They have to be sober for quite a while to purge that poison from their minds.


----------



## NativeSun09

Wow. You keep doing this circle jerk with your "wife" and you see that nothing has changed. She's too far gone. Her constant inebriation, the cheating, her manipulation of you are all signs that she is not all that concerned with trying to heal and change and be a better partner. Many posters on here told you that R was going to be Damn near impossible judging by your description of your relationship or lack thereof. It sucks to see that you are still putting up with the nonsense your "wife" is doling out. She needs counseling and/or rehab. And you need (Must!) to show independence by getting a stable job, working on setting up a life for yourself and your children. You best be sure that your children see and hear everything that their parents do. How do you feel about the example that she's setting through her alcoholism and you through your acquiescence to allow her to walk all over you. You need to be your own man while you work on your relationship. If anything is to work out, she absolutely needs to see that you can and will strive without her if she doesn't get her crap together. Mrs. Horizon has to see that Mr. Horizon is not a doormat. And you, my friend, are acting like a doormat. If you set boundaries or guidelines and she doesn't see fit or care to even abide by them then wtf are you still doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

It takes a year after filing for divorce in Australia to even bring the case to court. He could file this week and then give her a year to get her act together and save the marriage while he gets a job and starts moving on. Why wait?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NativeSun09

LostViking said:


> It takes a year after filing for divorce in Australia to even bring the case to court. He could file this week and then give her a year to get her act together and save the marriage while he gets a job and starts moving on. Why wait?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Did mention my WS had her own "Deal breaker"?

I forgot all about this. I was informed when things got slightly heated one evening approx a week ago.

I can't recall the exact context as I was also shutting it down from getting out of control with the children close by.

In any case she went on to say that my weight gain was a deal breaker. Never mentioned as having such magnitude though it did figure in many strained exchanges over the years.

Now post DDay it is a deal breaker - warning! History Re-write zone up ahead. What a piece of work.


----------



## LostViking

Well, get off your azz and lose weight. That is something that CAN be fixed with some effort on your part. 

Her alcoholism and slvttiness are different stories. If she hits you with the weight issue, hit her back with the boozehound/wh0re issue.


----------



## bfree

LostViking said:


> *Well, get off your azz and lose weight. * That is something that CAN be fixed with some effort on your part.
> 
> Her alcoholism and slvttiness are different stories. If she hits you with the weight issue, hit her back with the boozehound/wh0re issue.


Two things....lift weights and paleo diet. Try doing something for yourself and too yourself and stop worrying what she is up to. How can you take the high road if you're lying flat on your back?


----------



## Wazza

LostViking said:


> Well, get off your azz and lose weight. That is something that CAN be fixed with some effort on your part.
> 
> Her alcoholism and slvttiness are different stories. If she hits you with the weight issue, hit her back with the boozehound/wh0re issue.


One reservation...if there is to be reconciliation you have to get beyond "room sex" - where you both stand at opposite ends of the room and shout "F*ck you!!!!!"

So consider making the point without hitting her back. To me that's kind of an alpha thing. At some level she knows she is wrong. Rather than shouting a screaming, treat her alcoholism with the disdain it deserves. Do ht give her viewpoint equal time. A viewpoint that wxcessive drinking and wh0ring is ok doesn't deserve equal time.

Maybe you set a program for weight loss, tell her you are doing it, and comment that she should deal with her drinking too. Maybe if you make the point without making it an argument, it will sink in better. Maybe if you are at Weight Watchers it might get her along to Alcoholics Anonymous.


----------



## happyman64

Horizon said:


> Did mention my WS had her own "Deal breaker"?
> 
> I forgot all about this. I was informed when things got slightly heated one evening approx a week ago.
> 
> I can't recall the exact context as I was also shutting it down from getting out of control with the children close by.
> 
> In any case she went on to say that my weight gain was a deal breaker. Never mentioned as having such magnitude though it did figure in many strained exchanges over the years.
> 
> Now post DDay it is a deal breaker - warning! History Re-write zone up ahead. What a piece of work.


Horizon

You see through all her BS.

Now start to focus more on you and less on her.

When the time comes to better yourself, mentally and physically you will be ready.

So get one f those FT jobs and start rewriting your future.

Because your wife is stuck in the past.

HM


----------



## turnera

Who cares what her deal breaker was?


----------



## Horizon

Yes, it was never mentioned, but who cares. The carousel keeps turning. Not so much trickle truth in this house as trickle BS, as in make it up as you go along. 

"to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part, except if you get fat, that's a deal breaker"


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> One reservation...if there is to be reconciliation* you have to get beyond "room sex" - where you both stand at opposite ends of the room and shout "F*ck you!!!!!"*
> So consider making the point without hitting her back. To me that's kind of an alpha thing. At some level she knows she is wrong. Rather than shouting a screaming, treat her alcoholism with the disdain it deserves. Do ht give her viewpoint equal time. A viewpoint that wxcessive drinking and wh0ring is ok doesn't deserve equal time.
> 
> Maybe you set a program for weight loss, tell her you are doing it, and comment that she should deal with her drinking too. Maybe if you make the point without making it an argument, it will sink in better. Maybe if you are at Weight Watchers it might get her along to Alcoholics Anonymous.


I just spit up my coffee reading this. lol


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> I just spit up my coffee reading this. lol


Yeah, we call it "hallway sex" over here. Tell each other to get f**ked as you pass by. :rofl:


----------



## Racer

I’m starting to agree with the others. You need to move out (or at least do it mentally). 

As much as all of us keep trying to tell you that you need to work on yourself, you insist for what can only self-masochistic reasons to allow yourself to be ‘controlled’ by this chick. She *makes me* feel this, think that, etc. Everything seems to be you second guessing what the hell is going on in her head. It has to stop. Your entire emotional state and direction you are going is dictated by her; And it’s not her, it’s you trying to point yourself in ways that will have some result with her. Stop it. 

So you want sex... You, it’s her fault for not being in the mood. But single Horizon, what would he think? Oh yes, “I’m not getting laid unless I do something about that.” Single Horizon no longer relies on anyone to just provide stuff for him “just because”. Single Horizon understands; He is on his own. You are, start acting like it. 

So, move out. Put yourself out there on your own so you have to make your own choices and decisions without her influence. (You can do that in-house too, but only for a bit like a couple months... then it’s sort of pointless).


----------



## badmemory

Horizon said:


> Did mention my WS had her own "Deal breaker"?
> 
> I forgot all about this. I was informed when things got slightly heated one evening approx a week ago.
> 
> I can't recall the exact context as I was also shutting it down from getting out of control with the children close by.
> 
> *In any case she went on to say that my weight gain was a deal breaker. Never mentioned as having such magnitude though it did figure in many strained exchanges over the years.*
> 
> Now post DDay it is a deal breaker - warning! History Re-write zone up ahead. What a piece of work.


A possible response to her insults to you about being fat, partially borrowed from Winston Churchhill:

_"Dear, the good news is that I can loose the weight in three months. The bad news; you will forever be a a lying, cheating, adulterer. I prefer my situation."_

Okay, may not help the R, but wouldn't if feel good to say?


----------



## Wazza

Racer said:


> I’m starting to agree with the others. You need to move out (or at least do it mentally).
> 
> As much as all of us keep trying to tell you that you need to work on yourself, you insist for what can only self-masochistic reasons to allow yourself to be ‘controlled’ by this chick. She *makes me* feel this, think that, etc. Everything seems to be you second guessing what the hell is going on in her head. It has to stop. Your entire emotional state and direction you are going is dictated by her; And it’s not her, it’s you trying to point yourself in ways that will have some result with her. Stop it.
> 
> So you want sex... You, it’s her fault for not being in the mood. But single Horizon, what would he think? Oh yes, “I’m not getting laid unless I do something about that.” Single Horizon no longer relies on anyone to just provide stuff for him “just because”. Single Horizon understands; He is on his own. You are, start acting like it.
> 
> So, move out. Put yourself out there on your own so you have to make your own choices and decisions without her influence. (You can do that in-house too, but only for a bit like a couple months... then it’s sort of pointless).


Kind of sums things up. A big part of my reconciliation was basically getting the principles Racer is describing here, and paradoxically it made the marriage better.


----------



## Horizon

I know what I have to do, I have never been more clear about it - I haven't got all my ducks lined up yet and I do want to do this trip at the end of the year for our children. It's something that I absolutely must do for them and myself.

I feel embarrassed to report this but I had another unfortunate revelation this morning. 

You may recall that my WS was having an affair behind her husbands back with a man she refuses to name. On the pretext I would hunt him down! (more smokescreen BS - and why not name him really?)

It was before my time, almost, she had to brake it off with him (the AP) when she got serious with me. Remembering she was was still under the same roof as her husband when we started out. "It's been over for ages" were her words at the time about her husband when I expressed concern that she was still there. 

How do I know she wasn't still bonking the un-named AP in the early days of our relationship? Good chance.

Get this - early in our relationship when I became acquainted with her circle of friends she informed me that she had slept with her best girlfriend's partner (he the father of two girls with this woman).

This bloke is Bi-polar and also a petty criminal (weekend prison back then, cheating on his GF, hitting up on older school girls, drugs,anything....). When their first child was born my WS and I were in our first year. I remembered the baby photo of their first girl.

This weekend just finished my WS's BG was at our home with her daughters, now all grown up. The oldest is 18 The BG flashed that same bay photo of her oldest, been in her wallet all these years - then the penny dropped this morning for me.

My WS had f**ked her BG's partner, that wayward petty crook, while she was married! Two affairs she had on her husband! (that I know about) It took time but I got there OMFG!


----------



## Decorum

There is a storm on the Horizon.


----------



## LostViking

What storm? Just more BS Horizon will sit and swallow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

LostViking said:


> What storm? Just more BS Horizon will sit and swallow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's time to get off the pot and move to greener pastures.

Even single with a positive influence FB is a huge improvement, over keep talking about that past situation.


----------



## turnera

Wait a minute. You had an affair with her and now she cheated on you?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Wait a minute. You had an affair with her and now she cheated on you?


No, there was never anything like that. She told me that they were under the same roof until the lease ran out. 

I never met the man. However if I ever did meet him I would love to get his POV on what the status was at the end of their marriage, not to mention the marriage in total - it's all grist for the mill, pointless.

I just know he'd have a story to tell.


----------



## Horizon

Just to clarify - my WS was only at home with her husband for a few weeks when she then moved in with me. It all happened pretty quickly with us, maybe a month tops. She didn't stay for the lease to expire - he stayed, 

Other than that I haven't a clue who this person is walking around in my partners body. Very X-Files.


----------



## Horizon

Horizon said:


> Just to clarify - my WS was only at home with her husband for a few weeks when she then moved in with me. It all happened pretty quickly with us, maybe a month tops. She didn't stay for the lease to expire - he stayed,
> 
> Other than that I haven't a clue who this person is walking around in my partners body. Very X-Files.


....and latest research tonight reveals that someone is looking at pre-paid mobile phones (otherwise known as a "burner"). Surely it's a little too early for my son and that is something that would be discussed with me anyway....the storm gets closer.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> Just to clarify - my WS was only at home with her husband for a few weeks when she then moved in with me. It all happened pretty quickly with us, maybe a month tops. She didn't stay for the lease to expire - he stayed,
> 
> Other than that I haven't a clue who this person is walking around in my partners body. Very X-Files.


Oh she was a wing walker!










Most people who date right after a breakup realize that they are not ready to move on with someone else yet, healing and growth are required.

Sounds like she was in your C0ckpit before any of that could happen, you probably married up, which is what she was looking at the time, a soft place to crash land.

Did she ever really love you? Were you just a nice guy?


Burner phone, Hmmm!
BTW, Captain Horizon, its important for the pilot to hold the plane level and true as the wing walker crosses to the other man's plane.

Don't attempt this on a stormy day.

You are not "the man" to her, sorry.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> Just to clarify - my WS was only at home with her husband for *a few weeks when she then moved in with me*. It all happened pretty quickly with us, maybe a month tops. She didn't stay for the lease to expire - he stayed,
> 
> Other than that *I haven't a clue who this person is* walking around in my partners body. Very X-Files.


For the benefit of future relationships, maybe you'll learn from this, that you should never make plans with a person until you've known them for at least a year or two. That way, you have time to observe them - a lot - and see how they are in good times AND bad. If they're faking, they can't keep it up THAT long without their true skin showing through.

And just have to say it...she WAS married when you started a relationship with her.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Decorum said:


> Oh she was a wing walker!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most people who date right after a breakup realize that they are not ready to move on with someone else yet, healing and growth are required.
> 
> Sounds like she was in your C0ckpit before any of that could happen, you probably married up, which is what she was looking at the time, a soft place to crash land.
> 
> Did she ever really love you? Were you just a nice guy?
> 
> 
> Burner phone, Hmmm!
> BTW, Captain Horizon, its important for the pilot to hold the plane level and true as the wing walker crosses to the other man's plane.
> 
> Don't attempt this on a stormy day.
> 
> You are not "the man" to her, sorry.


Time for a barrel roll...


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> For the benefit of future relationships, maybe you'll learn from this, that you should never make plans with a person until you've known them for at least a year or two. That way, you have time to observe them - a lot - and see how they are in good times AND bad. If they're faking, they can't keep it up THAT long without their true skin showing through.
> 
> And just have to say it...she WAS married when you started a relationship with her.


Agreed, but many relationships start before divorce proceedings are completed. I myself was long divorced when I met her. It may seem strange to you but I remember being a "little" concerned they were under the same roof at the time but she assured me that it was all said and done.

I guess that in the cold hard light of what I now know there is perhaps some science to it. Look we all know about re-bounds and soft landings etc - it can't be denied. And even as I think now, I can remember expressing the rebound factor to her. But love, or whatever it was (lust?), overode anything and soon she was shacked up with me.

However I will never accept the implication that i cheated with her, though technically you could argue the case. There was no sneaking around, as far as I was aware she was "single". Technically she wasn't - I accept that. 

Did she cheat on him (exit affair with me and another incomplete affair as I later discovered with the dude she wont name) and effectively fool me. Probably, knowing what I now know.

This is f**king with my head - how blind I have been. Too trusting, too trusting....


----------



## Wazza

So the $64,000 question. If she is a repeat offender.....what is your basis for reconciliation?

Sorry, it is a horrible question, and I am not trying to tell you what to do. But I am sure the question is in your mind, and it isn't going to go away....so, where to?


----------



## Acabado

And how did portray her marriage and first husband?
Look at how she's behaving now... you even acknowledge she's likely this way since a child... so you can conclude she was also abusive to her first husband and playing the victim at the same time.
And you know she decided the marriage was over and started cheating... see the patern?
What's the difference? The kids. But given her personality it's not a good thing, it feeds her victim mentality and complete inability to face the mirror.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I can remember expressing the rebound factor to her. But love, or whatever it was (lust?), overode anything and soon she was shacked up with me.


Look up PEA chemicals. That's where lust comes from. It pretty much guides all affairs and all relationships for the first couple years. PEAs give you a 'high' where you ignore everyone (love is blind) who tells you otherwise, all you can think about is her and she you, and all you wanna do is have sex, sex, and more sex. It's your biological drive to grow the species. Unfortunately, it's biologically proven to DISAPPEAR from your bodies from within 2 to 4 years. Then SOME people will go looking for the next piece of tail



Horizon said:


> However I will never accept the implication that i cheated with her, though technically you could argue the case. There was no sneaking around, as far as I was aware she was "single". Technically she wasn't - I accept that.


Really? Then I'll assume you met her husband, hung out with him enough to hear from HIM that they were divorcing and no sore feelings.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Look up PEA chemicals. That's where lust comes from. It pretty much guides all affairs and all relationships for the first couple years. PEAs give you a 'high' where you ignore everyone (love is blind) who tells you otherwise, all you can think about is her and she you, and all you wanna do is have sex, sex, and more sex. It's your biological drive to grow the species. Unfortunately, it's biologically proven to DISAPPEAR from your bodies from within 2 to 4 years. Then SOME people will go looking for the next piece of tail
> 
> Really? Then I'll assume you met her husband, hung out with him enough to hear from HIM that they were divorcing and no sore feelings.



I even remember her telling me in that first year, when she had contact with him re their divorce, that he had said to her "I'll kill him", when she told him she was in another relationship. 

All I know for sure is that she told me she knew the marriage was wrong but she felt pressured to go through with it - very conservative parents. Her husband was immature and loved to get on the drink, and his mother was very much involved in their lives. A pretty rough old-school sexist family - the men didn't mind laying on the innuendo etc.

When they went house hunting just before their wedding the husband to be announced that he was not ready to buy a house yet (I had a house well and truly by then but this was 2 years before we met via work). That was the the final straw but she still married him.

Soon after we got together she told me that her husband had taken their 20k plus savings and bought himself a car, she kept a washing machine and dryer and a few other things and that was it. I urged her to take action to recover her share of the savings but she refused. I couldn't believe it at the time but not necessarily unusual when couples want to move on minus hassles (clean break sacrifice).

The fact is I did not think about their marital status. I belived what she told me, I was in love / lust with her. She left that house and moved in with me. I did not meet her husband and nor did he come looking for either of us. She did not speak to him again except re the divorce.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> So the $64,000 question. If she is a repeat offender.....what is your basis for reconciliation?
> 
> Sorry, it is a horrible question, and I am not trying to tell you what to do. But I am sure the question is in your mind, and it isn't going to go away....so, where to?


Recon seems impossible now - I have no basis just possessions and memories and now, a strange feeling of guilt. She is happily going about her business and I am thinking only about when to drop the guillotine blade. Does she deserve any less?

The question is with me very moment.


----------



## Horizon

Acabado said:


> And how did portray her marriage and first husband?
> Look at how she's behaving now... you even acknowledge she's likely this way since a child... so you can conclude she was also abusive to her first husband and playing the victim at the same time.
> And you know she decided the marriage was over and started cheating... see the patern?
> What's the difference? The kids. But given her personality it's not a good thing, it feeds her victim mentality and complete inability to face the mirror.


You are dead right, that's why I'd love to hear his perspective. She is unwilling / incapable to acknowledge the depth of misery she has created or the need for her to turn the ship around and face it pronto - drinking, spending, seeking other men's approval (sex the bi-product). She can't face up to it. "Get over it, I did" is her catchphrase.


----------



## turnera

So basically you got scammed like all other men in her life and you let your penis guide your decisions moving forward. Happens all the time, don't beat yourself up over it.

What will you do NOW?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> So basically you got scammed like all other men in her life and you let your penis guide your decisions moving forward. Happens all the time, don't beat yourself up over it.
> 
> What will you do NOW?


Right now, I am staying here. I am not leaving this house. 

Do you think that the last 18 years was as much a time of hibernation for her, let's cal it, true nature?

Children come along, things are OK, things aren't so OK, things go right off the boil....

Of course I'll forever wonder now if there were any other OM in the last 18 yrs before this POSOM crawled out of his hole. No reason to believe so but who knows.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> You are dead right, that's why I'd love to hear his perspective. She is unwilling / incapable to acknowledge the depth of misery she has created or the need for her to turn the ship around and face it pronto - drinking, spending, seeking other men's approval (sex the bi-product). She can't face up to it. "Get over it, I did" is her catchphrase.


Oh. In a cheaters "glaze", they are saying things with themself as center as it pertains to them, they will deflect, minimize, etc - automatically. Theres not even thought to it, it's because of the lies, and self-embellishment.


----------



## turnera

I think the last 18 years were good enough for her. And I highly doubt there was only one OM. She does have a habit, after all.


----------



## Horizon

I feel like such a fool.

We never had any plans, never made them. Buying this house was about as far into the future that we looked.

I have just sat back knowing all this, knowing that a happy and close and yes, let's say it for the first time, a suited couple would look to the future - make plans.

Am I wrong?

The whole thing is a farce. Like her own father she has never been interested in much at all outside of her own small world. Jesus! to think I lived in the US and Japan years back, did stuff.

No wonder going on a family holiday at years end is such a big deal - she's never been OS in her life!

Not false Recon but false relationship....yes, yes, yes I get it.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> I feel like such a fool.
> 
> We never had any plans, never made them. Buying this house was about as far into the future that we looked.
> 
> I have just sat back knowing all this, knowing that a happy and close and yes, let's say it for the first time, a suited couple would look to the future - make plans.
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> The whole thing is a farce. Like her own father she has never been interested in much at all outside of her own small world. Jesus! to think I lived in the US and Japan years back, did stuff.
> 
> No wonder going on a family holiday at years end is such a big deal - she's never been OS in her life!
> 
> Not false Recon but false relationship....yes, yes, yes I get it.


I don't see making plans as the sign of a happy or suited couple. And I don't know that the relationship was false.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> I don't see making plans as the sign of a happy or suited couple. And I don't know that the relationship was false.


Well, there you go, look at how confused about the whole thing I am. All made sense before April 2nd 2013.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Well, there you go, look at how confused about the whole thing I am. All made sense before April 2nd 2013.


That is what it does to you. You want it not to be true, you blame yourself......

Normal, don't sweat it. Just work on you.


----------



## condave

hey Buddy! How is it going, sorry you are going through what you are going through.

I came across this thread which you might find interesting 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/22677-being-challenge.html


This is one response by a lady that caught my eye

How do you become a challenge? Dress smartly, get regular haircuts, take care of yourself, groomed face and fingernails and make yourself attractive to others. Nothing and I mean NOTHING makes a woman stand up and take notice if she thinks somebody else is moving in or finds "her man" attractive. 
Personality wise, don't ask permission. Granted, some things require a discussion and compromise but too often I hear my guy friends "asking permission" to stay an extra hour or two after work to hit up a bar and drink with their co-workers, yet the wives think nothing of saying "I am going out with my friends on Saturday night". Stake your claim, if it is reasonable.
In the 17 years my hubby and I have been married, the time my attraction to him was the lowest was when he "asked" to do things. I had always encouraged him to go out, join company sponsored sports teams, go to a bar with friends, live! For whatever reason his "nice guy" approach told him to stay at home. I got so tired of it but I never told him. Fast forward 10 years and we were having problems. He blurts out one evening that I kept him from golfing, racquetball, hanging out with friends, etc. Um, yeah. Wrong. Granted when our sons were babies I needed the help but as they grew older, I kind of wanted him to get out just as much as I wanted to. I think he was still stuck in the "having to be there" phase and that was not healthy. I FELT like his mother and it made my skin crawl. I know his mother and we are often at odds. She is the one who always wants her husband by her side and in turn, taught her sons this. I managed to break him of this. Be your own man, within reason and you will have a wife who respects and loves you.


While obviously the above is very different from your situation, have you thought that maybe your wife doesn't do more for your relationship because she doesn't believe she can lose you? Women are can be very strange, and they are usually more attracted to a guy if they think he is a good catch to other women, or if they think that there is competition for him from other women, in fact women are actually known to be more attracted to a guy who has a girlfriend rather than a single one, strange isn't it? It's a concept called "Pre-Selection", have you had about it? Anyway you seem to be driven by the urge to make your wife feel your pain, or understand a bit of what you are going through. I can tell you that they is no better way to get to her than to portray the image that you are moving on from her and starting to form other friendships and relationship. For example why don't you buy a nice new jacket and new jeans, tell your wife you are going out on Friday night (with your buddy or otherwise), spray a fresh new cologne, make sure she sees you looking your best before you leave the house, a nice new haircut, spend the whole night out, give her something to think about, women thrive on competition and being able to hold down their man, if she gets the slightest hint that you are "able" to jump back into the dating field again she will go absolutely crazy and you might be able to get the reaction you want from her, believe me about this, worse-still your WS seems like a control-freak, control freaks thrive on always being in control, obviously, so what do you think will happen to her at the slightest hint that she is losing control, that's right! She will come buckling on her knees to you. Remember when you started your 180, when your wife fell apart, and teared up in front of you, squeezing your knuckles etc? Well that was because she felt she was losing control of you buddy. Whether you want recon or not you have to give her a challenge.

One last thing is that having read a couple of other threads from some guys I noticed one phenomenal thing was that as they underwent their self-improvement, a lot of other women started noticing them, as a by product of improving themselves, they got a lot more attention and gained confidence because of this, it's like they realized that they were not losers because of who they are,or something inside of them, but rather because of how they acted and thought. Start changing something today, start by giving your chick something to think about and see for yourself that you are just as lovable as any other man, you lost it somewhere along the way and went beta, but this is not the end of the road, it's a journey you are taking to find your Alpha side. 



Also watch this movie :

Watch Crazy, Stupid, Love. online free 2011 - download Crazy, Stupid, Love. - 1ChannelMovie


Movies are great because they get your mind off stuff, but they also drop some subtitle hints about life sometimes and they are a great motivator, you get plenty of laughs too, you sound like you need some laughs lately. Sure real life is tougher than Hollywood, but people learn a lot from watching actors 

Good luck 

Dave 

Oh! And start by changing your cologne, make her wonder about your new smell, I think something woodsy would do, maybe Playboy V.I.P or something, it's simple and cheap


----------



## turnera

condave said:


> While obviously the above is very different from your situation, have you thought that maybe your wife doesn't do more for your relationship because she doesn't believe she can lose you?


This is the key to EVERY relationship. Unconditional love doesn't belong in a marriage.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



turnera said:


> This is the key to EVERY relationship. Unconditional love doesn't belong in a marriage.


QFT

The only unconditional love is a parent for a child. All other love is conditional and if you can't see that you'd better open your eyes.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> This is the key to EVERY relationship. Unconditional love doesn't belong in a marriage.





bfree said:


> QFT
> 
> The only unconditional love is a parent for a child. All other love is conditional and if you can't see that you'd better open your eyes.


Had to think about this, because I don't want it to be true. But i think it is.

Certainly any of us who have been betrayed kow there are limits to our spouses affection, and we cannot take their commitment for granted

As for giving unconditional love...I have a walk away point now. I didn't before the affair, not really. And it is healthy because I work to ensure we don't get to the walk away point.


----------



## Horizon

Well, after some reading here and elsewhere I figured out I'm pretty much your classic passive aggressive. Not pretty to live with apparently (I noted that my WS used this term to describe me a few weeks back for the very first time).

Well, well, she's been doing some reading and now she's got me classified.

I was just looking at her now, smiling at something on the morning news before work (if i hear another thing about those inbred nobody royals and their new born prince I'm getting a Kalishnikov) she is completely unattached to anything remotely resembling Recon.

She's not in Recon, we are not in Recon, not even false Recon. This is "wait and see what happens nextcon". She is not asking a question, nothing. You can cut the air with a knife.

I guess she thinks that tickling my bum just before I jump into the shower last night and telling me "nice tooshy" is doing it for me. Penis thinking "hmmmm where's this heading", brain steps in - "Warning Will Robinson, alien approaching".

Can I sue for psych torture? Is this me the accordion being played as suggested by NuckingFuts?

And more - when i exited the shower this morning I lightly remarked "see what you are missing". Her stock response - "I'm working on it". When she left for work I felt anger and humiliation. Why even bother saying it? Oh, that's right - that little bit of hope. I'll wait, no worries....hmmmm, how long will that be?

Oh, by the way, you will be glad to know that the national sales force are converging on Sydney next week. I was told last night - all of it coated in a less than believable act about what a hassle it will be - "I don't want to go...." (methinks she doth protest too much). 

No mention of the fact that a certain work colleague who she recently flirted with and asked to catch-up for lunch a few weeks back will also be in town. VAR!!!!

Finally, she has purchased a Navman GPS. I offered this as a potential gift 12 months ago but it was agreed it was a waste of time. Now suddenly my WS has a GPS. Thoughts anyone, something I'm missing beyond a frivolous purchase?


----------



## Horizon

This relationship is over - yes, I finally got there.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> Oh, by the way, you will be glad to know that the national sales force are converging on Sydney next week. I was told last night - all of it coated in a less than believable act about what a hassle it will be - "I don't want to go...." (methinks she doth protest too much).
> 
> No mention of the fact that a certain work colleague who she recently flirted with and asked to catch-up for lunch a few weeks back will also be in town. VAR!!!!
> 
> Finally, she has purchased a Navman GPS. I offered this as a potential gift 12 months ago but it was agreed it was a waste of time. Now suddenly my WS has a GPS. Thoughts anyone, something I'm missing beyond a frivolous purchase?


GPS, maybe she is concerned that you can track her phone but she does not want to get lost going out to luncheons.

Btw if you see a string out if front of you make sure it is not tied to your nose. VAR on!


----------



## Wazza

GPS. The trouble having been cheated on is you can jump at shadows. Your question is reasonable or the GPS could be nothing.

If you can say the relationship is over, what are you going to do? Does anything she does matter?

Why not travel with her to Sydney and hang out when she is not in meetings?

Is she flying to Sydney? Not sure how you VAR her.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> GPS. The trouble having been cheated on is you can jump at shadows. Your question is reasonable or the GPS could be nothing.
> 
> If you can say the relationship is over, what are you going to do? Does anything she does matter?
> 
> Why not travel with her to Sydney and hang out when she is not in meetings?
> 
> Is she flying to Sydney? Not sure how you VAR her.


We are in Sydney - people are coming here from interstate. Now she wants to buy a new lounge. I told her couldn't we spend the money on IC & MC. She said, yeah but not right now. I said why? She said - "It's half price". Seriously. I realised today that she is not even thinking about her A or the sh!t that's happened. She's moved on, everything is fine. That's why she asks me questions like - "what's wrong" or "why are you talking that way" etc. She seriously has no idea.


----------



## warlock07

Looks like she is done pretending and acting like she cared


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> We are in Sydney - people are coming here from interstate. Now she wants to buy a new lounge. I told her couldn't we spend the money on IC & MC. She said, yeah but not right now. I said why? She said - "It's half price". Seriously. I realised today that she is not even thinking about her A or the sh!t that's happened. She's moved on, everything is fine. That's why she asks me questions like - "what's wrong" or "why are you talking that way" etc. She seriously has no idea.


I am unsure what to suggest.

In such a situation I would take action to make the point, but every action I can think of starts from a place of economic independence. Eg...move out for a few days, decree no more joint money spent on lounges or other joint property until you are sure the marriage has a future.

But I think those things are off limits to you because she can cut off your money supply and you are screwed. Or if you argue about the lounge, it is her money and you don't get a say.

Any progress on establishing that independence?

I would definitely refuse to et her have lunch with OM, and I would find ways to check. But again, what is your next action if she refuses?


----------



## condave

Horizon said:


> Well, after some reading here and elsewhere I figured out I'm pretty much your classic passive aggressive. Not pretty to live with apparently (I noted that my WS used this term to describe me a few weeks back for the very first time).
> 
> Well, well, she's been doing some reading and now she's got me classified.
> 
> I was just looking at her now, smiling at something on the morning news before work (if i hear another thing about those inbred nobody royals and their new born prince I'm getting a Kalishnikov) she is completely unattached to anything remotely resembling Recon.
> 
> She's not in Recon, we are not in Recon, not even false Recon. This is "wait and see what happens nextcon". She is not asking a question, nothing. You can cut the air with a knife.
> 
> I guess she thinks that tickling my bum just before I jump into the shower last night and telling me "nice tooshy" is doing it for me. Penis thinking "hmmmm where's this heading", brain steps in - "Warning Will Robinson, alien approaching".
> 
> Can I sue for psych torture? Is this me the accordion being played as suggested by NuckingFuts?
> 
> And more - when i exited the shower this morning I lightly remarked "see what you are missing". Her stock response - "I'm working on it". When she left for work I felt anger and humiliation. Why even bother saying it? Oh, that's right - that little bit of hope. I'll wait, no worries....hmmmm, how long will that be?
> 
> Oh, by the way, you will be glad to know that the national sales force are converging on Sydney next week. I was told last night - all of it coated in a less than believable act about what a hassle it will be - "I don't want to go...." (methinks she doth protest too much).
> 
> No mention of the fact that a certain work colleague who she recently flirted with and asked to catch-up for lunch a few weeks back will also be in town. VAR!!!!
> 
> Finally, she has purchased a Navman GPS. I offered this as a potential gift 12 months ago but it was agreed it was a waste of time. Now suddenly my WS has a GPS. Thoughts anyone, something I'm missing beyond a frivolous purchase?




You are the strongest case of co-dependency I have seen here, it will kill you if your wife leaves you, it will cripple you emotionally, you need to do something now, anything, maybe even pray, a lot of people have found comfort in the words of the Holy bible when they were in their darkest moments


----------



## condave

turnera said:


> This is the key to EVERY relationship. Unconditional love doesn't belong in a marriage.



The Christian way of marriage brings love and a strong bond. People have swayed from these values and that's why I think we are increasingly having to play mind games to keep our spouses, it shouldn't be like that, love should be easy, I sure wish it was easy


----------



## condave

You know, I always wondered why some men shot dead their wives, and then turned the gun on themselves after the wife left them, I always thought to myself, "what would be the point???" But it's easy to understand now when some men feel like there is no life after their wife

There is life after your wife buddy, maybe even a better life  Stay strong!


----------



## Wazza

condave said:


> The Christian way of marriage brings love and a strong bond. People have swayed from these values and that's why I think we are increasingly having to play mind games to keep our spouses, it shouldn't be like that, love should be easy, I sure wish it was easy


Thead jack, but for the record I disagree.


----------



## Horizon

This is the "feedback" I received moments ago when I again explained to my WS that the new lounge is not a priority for me and that we need to sort us out if that is still possible - get into IC & MC, whatever we can do. Have a serious shot at this and that she needs to start doing some heavy lifting.

"Okay, I hear you, but we need to move forward. We can’t just wait until you are in a place where you feel comfortable.

We don’t get time to talk and discuss things, there are always the kids or we are flat out on weekends with their stuff. I am scared that when we do talk you will either get angry or try to pull my entire life apart ie talking about when I was with my ex-husband (which by the way was before you and I shouldn't have to feel like I have to explain my whole life to you).

I still feel like you think you have every right to know everything about me and ask any question that you like, you still like to think that you can tell me what is wrong with me, but won’t look at yourself.

I don’t need you to try and “fix” me – I don’t need you to tell me what I need to do – I need you to accept me as me and stop trying to make me what you want me to be.

I feel like I have no privacy and no time to me and what little time I might get, you are wanting me to give it to you.

I am trying to move forward, fixing our relationship is not just about me, you have to understand that we can’t just go back to what we were like 10/15 years ago, there is a lot of time where we did not communicate and it wasn’t just about me. I feel like you expect me to fix everything, but I am still emotionally trying to re-connect with you as you shut me out for a long time and I can’t just make that come back because you now want it to.

I am trying to work through this, but I cannot dwell on it all the time – I feel sick everytime I think about what I have done and I feel sick everytime I talk about it and you ask me questions. I want to move past it and move on."

Doesn't that just say it all folks. WOW!


----------



## Northern Monkey

Stop talking to her. 180. You're not strong enough to have these conversations. You need to detach. Gain perspective.

It won't be easy but till you know who you are, how can you possibly know what you want?
All your posts are still about her.

It's time to talk about yourself. Love yourself enough to realise you exist. You matter.


----------



## Wazza

Ok Horizon, I am going to give you a perspectiv that most here will disagree with.

First, her desire not to talk about it, to move on and past it, is normal, and I think a good thing, since it indicates guilt. However...she needs to understand that you can't move past it that quickly, and she needs to talk about it to help you heal. I had exactly the same problem with my spouse.

Second "we don't get time to talk" is a reasonable comment. You can work on that by finding specific time with her.

Thirdly, you need to address the problems she has identified in the marriage. I am assuming here you want a healthy relationship, and I don't see how you get tht by grinding her into the ground.

None of this is to excuse her affair, but people are going to tell you she has no rigt to any of those feelings because she cheated, and I would not agree with that.

With that in mind, what do you wish she had said differently?


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Ok Horizon, I am going to give you a perspectiv that most here will disagree with.
> 
> First, her desire not to talk about it, to move on and past it, is normal, and I think a good thing, since it indicates guilt. However...she needs to understand that you can't move past it that quickly, and she needs to talk about it to help you heal. I had exactly the same problem with my spouse.
> 
> Second "we don't get time to talk" is a reasonable comment. You can work on that by finding specific time with her.
> 
> Thirdly, you need to address the problems she has identified in the marriage. I am assuming here you want a healthy relationship, and I don't see how you get tht by grinding her into the ground.
> 
> None of this is to excuse her affair, but people are going to tell you she has no rigt to any of those feelings because she cheated, and I would not agree with that.
> 
> With that in mind, what do you wish she had said differently?


I think I need to point this out. Horizon, your wife sounds to me very stubborn and in a huge amount of denial. That said you need to decide what you want to accomplish here. If I were you I would be looking at finding a way out of this marriage and striking out on my own. I admittedly would not be up for trying to fix this marriage given that it seems its all going to be on you...at least in the beginning. However, if your goal is to try to fix this marriage I'm going to encourage you to listen to Wazza. From what I've read over many many threads he was in a similar situation with a wife that wasn't really interested in repairing the damage caused but he was able to guide his marriage to a better place. Some say that he compromised too much but the fact is that he is still married and his marriage is in a very good place. If that is your goal and you feel you are up to it maybe his approach may be the best one for you. But you are going to have to change a great deal about yourself before your wife is going to be able to turn her attention to herself in a meaningful way.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> I think I need to point this out. Horizon, your wife sounds to me very stubborn and in a huge amount of denial. That said you need to decide what you want to accomplish here. If I were you I would be looking at finding a way out of this marriage and striking out on my own. I admittedly would not be up for trying to fix this marriage given that it seems its all going to be on you...at least in the beginning. However, if your goal is to try to fix this marriage I'm going to encourage you to listen to Wazza. From what I've read over many many threads he was in a similar situation with a wife that wasn't really interested in repairing the damage caused but he was able to guide his marriage to a better place. Some say that he compromised too much but the fact is that he is still married and his marriage is in a very good place. If that is your goal and you feel you are up to it maybe his approach may be the best one for you. But you are going to have to change a great deal about yourself before your wife is going to be able to turn her attention to herself in a meaningful way.


I would say my wife had a different view of what it meant to fix a marriage, rather than that she didn't want to repair the damage. That aside, fair summary.


----------



## turnera

What seems to be missing is an agreement on what moving forward looks like. I'd tell her you either go with me to MC so we can do just that, or I'll take that as a sign you're not sincere and I'll make plans to move on.


----------



## alte Dame

The foundation in all of this is still one of alcoholism. You are both papering over the toxicity of this. You would be happy to have things revert to happier days before your relationship deteriorated and she cheated, but those days were just the early days of her alcoholic behavior. If you were to recover those days, she would still be traveling down a destructive path.

I realize that I must sound monotone and shrill, but I can't help but believe that you are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Your relationship issues will not be the death of her, but her drinking will be if she doesn't face it soon.

So, what should you wish she had said instead of what she did say? How about, 'I'm trying to deal with my drinking problem. This is very difficult and I need your support. I am sorry for what I have done and I am trying. Once I am healthier, I'm hoping that we can work on our relationship in a more positive way.'


----------



## Acabado

alte Dame is dead on.
I can't tell you how many times i've seen personalities as your wife's at recovery meetings. Alsoholism it not reduced to the moment they hit the bottle.


----------



## BashfulB

I just read through this thread and I shake my head.  Horizon you are overweight, underemployed and you live off your wife. Her alcoholism aside there is no mystery why she has zero respect for you. You need to become your own man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Horizon said:


> This is the "feedback" I received moments ago when I again explained to my WS that the new lounge is not a priority for me and that we need to sort us out if that is still possible - get into IC & MC, whatever we can do. Have a serious shot at this and that she needs to start doing some heavy lifting.
> 
> "Okay, I hear you, but we need to move forward. We can’t just wait until you are in a place where you feel comfortable.
> 
> We don’t get time to talk and discuss things, there are always the kids or we are flat out on weekends with their stuff. I am scared that when we do talk you will either get angry or try to pull my entire life apart ie talking about when I was with my ex-husband (which by the way was before you and I shouldn't have to feel like I have to explain my whole life to you).
> 
> I still feel like you think you have every right to know everything about me and ask any question that you like, you still like to think that you can tell me what is wrong with me, but won’t look at yourself.
> 
> I don’t need you to try and “fix” me – I don’t need you to tell me what I need to do – I need you to accept me as me and stop trying to make me what you want me to be.
> 
> I feel like I have no privacy and no time to me and what little time I might get, you are wanting me to give it to you.
> 
> I am trying to move forward, fixing our relationship is not just about me, you have to understand that we can’t just go back to what we were like 10/15 years ago, there is a lot of time where we did not communicate and it wasn’t just about me. I feel like you expect me to fix everything, but I am still emotionally trying to re-connect with you as you shut me out for a long time and I can’t just make that come back because you now want it to.
> 
> I am trying to work through this, but I cannot dwell on it all the time – I feel sick everytime I think about what I have done and I feel sick everytime I talk about it and you ask me questions. I want to move past it and move on."
> 
> Doesn't that just say it all folks. WOW!


Horizon, look at what you wrote and think through her response. Part of what she is saying is correct and says volumns. Part of it is pure defensiveness. And part is just wrong. 

Focus on the "I heard you" part, the part where she is complaining that you don't have time to talk, and the part where she feels you will get angry. I would suggest that you two get away to talk. Promise her that if you do get angry you promise that you will channel your anger into positve discussion so that you can move forward and that you will not yell, scream, leave the room, throw crap in her face, that you will be civil and that you will discuss things calmly and fairly. Often times having a mediator like in MC might be best under these circumstances if your wife does not feel "safe" with you. 

As a BS'er myself, I had to listen to what my wife was saying in order to work things out. It is easy to say they have to do all the heavy lifting but in reality we need to come along and help them if you want R.


----------



## Horizon

BashfulBull said:


> I just read through this thread and I shake my head. Horizon you are overweight, underemployed and you live off your wife. Her alcoholism aside there is no mystery why she has zero respect for you. You need to become your own man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Live off her my arse! - put a figure on the thousands of hours I have put into my family - AS AGREED!!!! if she can't respect that then she can shove it up her clacker.


----------



## warlock07

Horizon said:


> This is the "feedback" I received moments ago when I again explained to my WS that the new lounge is not a priority for me and that we need to sort us out if that is still possible - get into IC & MC, whatever we can do. Have a serious shot at this and that she needs to start doing some heavy lifting.
> 
> "Okay, I hear you, but we need to move forward. We can’t just wait until you are in a place where you feel comfortable.
> 
> We don’t get time to talk and discuss things, there are always the kids or we are flat out on weekends with their stuff. I am scared that when we do talk you will either get angry or try to pull my entire life apart ie talking about when I was with my ex-husband (which by the way was before you and I shouldn't have to feel like I have to explain my whole life to you).
> 
> I still feel like you think you have every right to know everything about me and ask any question that you like, you still like to think that you can tell me what is wrong with me, but won’t look at yourself.
> 
> I don’t need you to try and “fix” me – I don’t need you to tell me what I need to do – I need you to accept me as me and stop trying to make me what you want me to be.
> 
> I feel like I have no privacy and no time to me and what little time I might get, you are wanting me to give it to you.
> 
> I am trying to move forward, fixing our relationship is not just about me, you have to understand that we can’t just go back to what we were like 10/15 years ago, there is a lot of time where we did not communicate and it wasn’t just about me. I feel like you expect me to fix everything, but I am still emotionally trying to re-connect with you as you shut me out for a long time and I can’t just make that come back because you now want it to.
> 
> I am trying to work through this, but I cannot dwell on it all the time – I feel sick everytime I think about what I have done and I feel sick everytime I talk about it and you ask me questions. I want to move past it and move on."
> 
> *Doesn't that just say it all folks. WOW*!


For the 415th time, yes.


----------



## warlock07

Horizon said:


> Live off her my arse! - put a figure on the thousands of hours I have put into my family - AS AGREED!!!! if she can't respect that then she can shove it up her clacker.


So, work on things you have control over. Don't depend on her.


----------



## Horizon

Why wouldn't I get drunk tonight - I live in hot and cold land, back and fwd, hot and cold, on and off. I never get drunk, wellf**k it I will now.

I take my son out for a big son an Dad night WWE!!!! son loves it, did it ;last year allgood, huge audience, John Cena etal great fun - quick let's beat this mob of 15k to the car park ahhSH!T I backed my WS's car into a concrete pillar.

OUCH bad enough.Tell the truth I tell my son, no stories, no BS, the truth. Get home, everything's fine, tell the truth, then the attitude. Everyones goin to bed this late (no I didn't drink there I don't do that sh!Qt but I'm effing hanging one on now).

See she's pranged her work vehicle a couple times already in the last 2 years. Did I say anything, did I attitude? NO! but the birds sare comin home to roost no wold boy, all the years of critiquing is thrown back in my face.

I tell her, and her M um, "Sh!QT hap;pens". Shouldn't have said that, she lashedout at the hypocrite. Oh yeah - payback, not a leg to stand on. So I graab my clothes and head off to the bath but not before i gently remind her that i did not give her a hard time beofre about scrapes and bumps.

But see, the half of whisky is consumed already, so what the f**k right - she's 3/4 stung. So I'm getting the eff you right at the end of the night after a good day a mixed bag and a new lounge (f**king tacky piece of Sh!t tha5t it is) but I'm not rockin the boat on that one. So a nice end cap.

But hey, I have volunteerewd to get up ewarly and take my daughter to her gala day so she can sleep in cusae I'm such a top bloke when she was staring down the barrel of an alldayer - bloody gala days.

(I will be OK to drive and I will take my car - unearned as it is becasue i don't contribut f**k all around her I'm the nanny named Fran - yeah call me Fran. Good night and God b;leess.


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> So, work on things you have control over. Don't depend on her.


Stop making sense and yes u right. I am of the opinion that it feels like things are conspirin g. Do you know that feeling - I have had this my whole life. Something goes out of whack and then other shYt happens. Like the prang - now that's something one should own and move past

OMFG!!!!!she was talking about her affair, she was making an equivalendce. How could I miss that, it wasn't so much years of neg comments but me judfging her because of the affair. Ho wdare I expect her to be forgiving - don't you see? She's a f**king payback loving b**ch arrrcghhGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Live off her my arse! - put a figure on the thousands of hours I have put into my family - AS AGREED!!!! if she can't respect that then she can shove it up her clacker.


Right now there is a lot you guys don't agree on very much. I know how that feels, I have been there, and it sucks. I think it is worse for you as when you disagree you are so powerless. I note that, despite your strong views on the subject, you have the new lounge.

I'm taking that back to my wife's affair. Our economics were different, I was the primary breadwinner and she was the stay at home just going back into the workforce. But I vividly remember at the time her total disregard of my views and wishes. Nothing I said would make a difference. And this included agreements about our approach to career and financial plans. It seemed like none of them counted if she decided differently

Everything I had done, everything I had given. So much, so very much, my best, and yet not enough........

It's easy for me here to tell you to work on yourself. And it is what I did (it was all that I could do at the time) but it was not a happy journey.

You will get through. One way or another, things will work out. Maybe not as you expect, but you will find a balance.


----------



## Numbersixxx

BashfulBull said:


> I just read through this thread and I shake my head. Horizon you are overweight, underemployed and you live off your wife. Her alcoholism aside there is no mystery why she has zero respect for you. You need to become your own man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Heh, that's some straight dope right here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

BashfulBull said:


> I just read through this thread and I shake my head. Horizon you are overweight, underemployed and you live off your wife. Her alcoholism aside there is no mystery why she has zero respect for you. You need to become your own man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 He has a point.


----------



## Horizon

try to ignore that from last night - not my usual self. Sorry TAMers. Just done my share of Gala day then I'm getting some much needed sleep and then exercise zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........


----------



## carpenoctem

*Horizon:

*In her view, you do not deserve change. *In her view, you are not worth changing anything about her for.*

*In her view, the passengers have no option but to bear and share the aftermath of the mistakes made by the captain. And she IS the captain.* And you cannot bail.

*In her view, you are like an under-qualified employee who keeps demanding better work conditions, but both the employee and the employer knows that he will not leave, that he cannot find another / better employment. So, his querulousness has to be tolerated in view of his menial utility.*

The only thing that might tilt the balance is: a *startling change* in your personality / life, financial or employment situation. Or a serious health threat for her (god forbid).

(Just for the sake of it, imagine: if you win a lottery now, it will change your personality, and THAT will change her approach to you. Since that is just a fantasy, a job outside home might be a more realistic goal. But that has been talked about ad nauseum on this thread).

She might try to hold on to you ONLY when you begin to let go.




The thousands of man-hours you invested in the family – alas, that record is writ on water.


Wish you better times.


----------



## Horizon

I note this morning, first day the WS squeezes into her h/heels is the same day the flirty interstate dude is in town for the conference and dinner. 

The flirty dude who agreed that it would be nice to see her in "lady shoes" again after so long in flat shoes and a moon boot. Not that he was in town anyway to see any of this. 

Just some IMO typical potential AP prodding around the edges (unintentional pun), looking for an opening, hunting some feedback (worse, but you get the drift). A man knows.

Those e-mails now deleted. But I have a memory.

I love the way the WS walks out the door in the h/heels, because those delegates will be at the office first thing of course, but goes to pains to flash me the comfy flat shoes in her hand because she's so sure she won't last in the h/heels - seeing as the foot is still pretty tender.

You see the lie - it is so transparent it is sickening. Even if it's just for a little titillation (yes the puns can get worse) she is in fact meeting an agreement, she is punctuating that flirty line in the e-mails as in "Hey, remember we talked about h/heels, well do I look as good as you were implying - am I desirable?"

Tell me I am wrong. You can't because I know I am right. 

What is wrong is that she thinks I am so stupid I'll miss it - or she doesn't give a f**k but has to dole out a little something in the form of flat comfy shoes as a trinket of security. Effectively she's rubbing my face in it.

Such a shame - she scrubs up pretty well but none of it for me. 

PS: I was virtually rock hard all weekend, desire at breaking point. last night i thought at one point i would go out of my mind as those ubiquitous words rolled out - "I'm so tired, I'm going to bed" - "good night" - "Good night"


----------



## Horizon

Wish I had a VAR for the evening dinner. Let's see what the car VAR reveals. Nice way to live life this is.

PS: two job interviews this week.


----------



## Wazza

Sorry...I remember my wife doing the same. It sucks. Though she would have worm the flats and had the heels in the car.

There is a little but of trigger in this but I think I would find it hard not to go to the dinner, or at least be outside and observe them coming out. But as you say...the dressing up for him and none of it for you is a pretty clear message. Maybe she doesn't realise.

Weightlifter always advises people in your situation if they have a var in the car and someone else gets in, stop listening, lest you hear painful sounds that can never be unheard. Suggest you consider that. Have you got a friend who can listen to the var if that happens? Or a confidante on TAM?

Good news about the job interviews. Work on yourself. Whatever happens to the marriage, working on yourself will pay dividends.


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> What is wrong is that she thinks I am so stupid I'll miss it - or she doesn't give a f**k but has to dole out a little something in the form of flat comfy shoes as a trinket of security. Effectively she's rubbing my face in it.


You are still deluded about who your wife is. Of course she's rubbing it. Of course she knows well you snoops on her.
This is more of the same, telling you nobody would have sex with you, the excuxes to not having done the STD, witholding sex, the get over it, get used to it... she abuses you, and keep abusing you becasue she can and becasue she has no more than contempt an disgust for you. She doesn't hide, she's open and blunt with it. It's you the one still in denial and ill translating this and puting it into a patalable light.

I'm sorry but it's what I read about your wife.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> You are still deluded about who your wife is. Of course she's rubbing it. Of course she knows well you snoops on her.
> This is more of the same, telling you nobody would have sex with you, the excuxes to not having done the STD, witholding sex, the get over it, get used to it... she abuses you, and keep abusing you becasue she can and becasue she has no more than contempt an disgust for you. She doesn't hide, she's open and blunt with it. It's you the one still in denial and ill translating this and puting it into a patalable light.
> 
> I'm sorry but it's what I read about your wife.


No doubt things are not good. I am unsure whether Mrs Horizon is cynically flaunting things, or just thoughtless in her actions. Either way, it isn't good.

Was there ever an agreement of no contact with the other man?


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> No doubt things are not good. I am unsure whether Mrs Horizon is cynically flaunting things, or just thoughtless in her actions. Either way, it isn't good.
> 
> Was there ever an agreement of no contact with the other man?


It's the unavoidable work colleague thing. Management insists on the locals at least be there for the dinner. The day stuff doesn't include WS because she and her boss have already done the conference sessions component.

WS did make one concession after I expressed my displeasure in her boss encouraging her to stay for drinks and cab it home. She is driving so it's only 2 drinks - which is BS anyway if sparks fly. Cheaters are very adept at time management. I want to hear the VAR no matter what. There is truth in VAR and I don't like my truth 2nd hand.

I think my WS is more thoughtless than anything else. However lately it feels as though there is some science to all of this - science as in me being forced to act. Zero intimacy (sex) but one very effective way to force decisions. Am i paranoid to think that? I don't believe so.


----------



## Horizon

Another thing, two days ago when I opened up the work colleague subject and my concern about her staying on for drinks etc. She revealed - "He was married for 15 years and he's got a girlfriend, we talked about that....". She doesn't get it, never will. "So you are discussing relationships with him?" I said. No real response then she left in a huff. She can't see the tip of the EA and what could transpire - you'd think she'd be clued up on that one.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> It's the unavoidable work colleague thing. Management insists on the locals at least be there for the dinner. The day stuff doesn't include WS because she and her boss have already done the conference sessions component.
> 
> WS did make one concession after I expressed my displeasure in her boss encouraging her to stay for drinks and cab it home. She is driving so it's only 2 drinks - which is BS anyway if sparks fly. Cheaters are very adept at time management. I want to hear the VAR no matter what. There is truth in VAR and I don't like my truth 2nd hand.
> 
> I think my WS is more thoughtless than anything else. However lately it feels as though there is some science to all of this - science as in me being forced to act. Zero intimacy (sex) but one very effective way to force decisions. Am i paranoid to think that? I don't believe so.


If you hear the guy get into the car....if you hear them start doing things.....are you strong enough to deal with it? Not saying it is going to happen, but it is a possibility.

My wife's AP was the unavoidable work colleague thing....we got through it. Not trying to tell you divorce or reconcile, just observing that your situation is not necessarily irredeemable. 

I imagine today is going to be a pretty crap day for you. Even if nothing is going on, you will be worried. Stay strong...do something just for you, ok?


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Another thing, two days ago when I opened up the work colleague subject and my concern about her staying on for drinks etc. She revealed - "He was married for 15 years and he's got a girlfriend, we talked about that....". She doesn't get it, never will. "So you are discussing relationships with him?" I said. No real response then she left in a huff. She can't see the tip of the EA and what could transpire - you'd think she'd be clued up on that one.


And again Mrs Wazza struggled with that one. We have made progress but it took a loooooooong while.

I think that when you get a job and reinvent yourself, you are going to find a lot of stuff gets better. Hang in there.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> And again Mrs Wazza struggled with that one. We have made progress but it took a loooooooong while.
> 
> I think that when you get a job and reinvent yourself, you are going to find a lot of stuff gets better. Hang in there.


---

Do you think my suspicions that my WS's actions are somewhat premeditated is loopy?


----------



## Madman1

A woman dresses to please a man the she is willing to undress for.

He put it out there, what he wants to see, and she is dressing to submit, to please, for approval.

Sad really.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> ---
> 
> Do you think my suspicions that my WS's actions are somewhat premeditated is loopy?


Loopy? Of course not. Correct? Dunno. I don't know your wife.

My wife is a decent, moral woman. She never set out to have an affair. She was hit by the temptation and didn't deal with it well. She fought it all the way to the point of spending the night with him......it was a kind of head-in-the-sand refusal to see cause and effect.

I would be less likely to have reconciled if it had been premeditated, but I don't imagine it would change the amount of pain the affair caused.

But of course I have had over twenty years to work through it. I have confidence in my judgement now, but at the time of the affair, having not seen it coming, I had years of doubt.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> *. . . PS: two job interviews this week.*


Like that a lot. Good luck.


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon said:


> Wish I had a VAR for the evening dinner. Let's see what the car VAR reveals. Nice way to live life this is.
> 
> PS:* two job interviews this week*.





Wishful thinking: you'd be offered both jobs.

It's time life did you a good turn.

Best of luck, my brother. From my heart.


----------



## Horizon

Madman1 said:


> A woman dresses to please a man the she is willing to undress for.
> 
> He put it out there, what he wants to see, and she is dressing to submit, to please, for approval.
> 
> Sad really.


Yes, I didn't mention the modern new shirt as well - "Do you like it?". "Yes" - "A bit different...." - "Yes". 

The new shirt styled to be deliberately off centre on one side, the cut and pattern, white and off white, almost cubist, a hint at breaking the modest conservative garb that has enshrined her for many years. Daring in a subtle sort of way.

There's something showing up every week from online shopping, either in a box or padded bag. AMEX running at more than a grand a month, not to mention all the other PayPal notes on our joint banking statements. Occasionally this includes groceries - occasionally.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Loopy? Of course not. Correct? Dunno. I don't know your wife.
> 
> My wife is a decent, moral woman. She never set out to have an affair. She was hit by the temptation and didn't deal with it well. She fought it all the way to the point of spending the night with him......it was a kind of head-in-the-sand refusal to see cause and effect.
> 
> I would be less likely to have reconciled if it had been premeditated, but I don't imagine it would change the amount of pain the affair caused.
> 
> But of course I have had over twenty years to work through it. I have confidence in my judgement now, but at the time of the affair, having not seen it coming, I had years of doubt.


I meant premeditated as in designed to get me to act - forcing me to take action to bust this bond.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> I meant premeditated as in designed to get me to act - forcing me to take action to bust this bond.


I think it unlikely, but I don't know her. Some of the stories I have read on TAM are pretty unbelievable.


----------



## Thorburn

Madman1 said:


> A woman dresses to please a man the she is willing to undress for.
> 
> He put it out there, what he wants to see, and she is dressing to submit, to please, for approval.
> 
> Sad really.


:iagree: When my wife was with the XOM she would dress fairly normal, in February she faked going to work to "fool" everyone, so she dressed like she was going to work. THen things started to get worse in my opinion. After getting caught my wife, in the words of her middle sister, "dressed like a *****. She started wearing skin tight yoga pants to work. During the night of February when I confronted her with the recording till the time she finally came clean and confessed and repented, my wife was really out there as far as dressing was concerned. She was really trying to get guys attention and it was working. This has been a conplaint of mine for years, the way she dressed. I remember many conversations where I would complain about something she was wearing and her comment was, "I dress this way for you, Mac", and my responce was typically, "Really!! how come I am not out shopping with you when you are dressed this way?, or "Really!! How come I not out with period when you dress this way?" "IF you were dressing this way for me then I think I would have to be with you, Right?" I did finally get her to admit that she was dressing that way to attact guys. It worked to a certain extent.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> There's something showing up every week from online shopping, either in a box or padded bag. AMEX running at more than a grand a month, not to mention all the other PayPal notes on our joint banking statements. Occasionally this includes groceries - occasionally.


Who's paying for all this? Do you have some sort of agreement on bills?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Who's paying for all this? Do you have some sort of agreement on bills?


Us, mostly her of course. There never has been any agreement. 

The only agreement has been that I back off from raising questions about drinking and spending and now cheating. The three pillars of her addiction.

The fights that have been had when I tried to reign in spending have been met with steely resistance. Like the fights about drinking in days gone by - therefore I am seen as wanting to exercise control (my God the pressure / control she must have felt from her father). Hence the often repeated line from the e-mail recently posted to me.

"I don’t need you to try and “fix” me – I don’t need you to tell me what I need to do – I need you to accept me as me and stop trying to make me what you want me to be." Said so many times to me over the years.

or - "I still feel like you think you have every right to know everything about me and ask any question that you like, you still like to think that you can tell me what is wrong with me, but won’t look at yourself." The words of someone who will not look in the mirror.

Her genetic problem solving skills passed down from her Father are a great strength but are also manifested in me being portrayed as one who requires her to always fix something and by extension a living personification of her Father. (She doesn't want to f**k her Dad).

"I feel sick every time I think about what I have done and I feel sick every time I talk about it and you ask me questions." So don't ever ask questions about the three pillars and all will be just fine.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Us, mostly her of course. There never has been any agreement.
> 
> The only agreement has been that I back off from raising questions about drinking and spending and now cheating. The three pillars of her addiction.
> 
> The fights that have been had when I tried to reign in spending have been met with steely resistance. Like the fights about drinking in days gone by - therefore I am seen as wanting to exercise control (my God the pressure / control she must have felt from her father). Hence the often repeated line from the e-mail recently posted to me.
> 
> "I don’t need you to try and “fix” me – I don’t need you to tell me what I need to do – I need you to accept me as me and stop trying to make me what you want me to be." Said so many times to me over the years.
> 
> or - "I still feel like you think you have every right to know everything about me and ask any question that you like, you still like to think that you can tell me what is wrong with me, but won’t look at yourself." The words of someone who will not look in the mirror.
> 
> Her genetic problem solving skills passed down from her Father are a great strength but are also manifested in me being portrayed as one who requires her to always fix something and by extension a living personification of her Father. (She doesn't want to f**k her Dad).
> 
> "I feel sick every time I think about what I have done and I feel sick every time I talk about it and you ask me questions." So don't ever ask questions about the three pillars and all will be just fine.


But why are those two statements not valid from her point of view? Why are they unfair?


----------



## Horizon

VAR revealed nothing. I might add that some time after DDay she agreed that there were some issues with drinking (probably told you this before right?) and she also agreed to keep her spending in check. Nothing changed.

Night out booked for dinner at a swish restaurant. First time in....i can't remember when we ever did this....shoot.

I reckon a lot will come out on this night. I'm not going to spoil the night with questions, no way, I want to have a good time and see if we re-connect in any way. I have my doubts naturally but we will see.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> VAR revealed nothing. I might add that some time after DDay she agreed that there were some issues with drinking (probably told you this before right?) and she also agreed to keep her spending in check. Nothing changed.
> 
> Night out booked for dinner at a swish restaurant. First time in....i can't remember when we ever did this....shoot.
> 
> I reckon a lot will come out on this night. I'm not going to spoil the night with questions, no way, I want to have a good time and see if we re-connect in any way. I have my doubts naturally but we will see.


How many days of var activity was monitored?


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> VAR revealed nothing. I might add that some time after DDay she agreed that there were some issues with drinking (probably told you this before right?) and she also agreed to keep her spending in check. Nothing changed.
> 
> Night out booked for dinner at a swish restaurant. First time in....i can't remember when we ever did this....shoot.
> 
> I reckon a lot will come out on this night. I'm not going to spoil the night with questions, no way, I want to have a good time and see if we re-connect in any way. I have my doubts naturally but we will see.


Doubts, natural. But where she makes an effort, consider accepting she is trying, even if not in the way you like.

Fights about money, about allocation of time, and about consumption of alcohol are common problems in relationships I have observed. Be wary of tying them to the fact that she cheated. She is entitled to have a different view from you.

Reconnecting takes time.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> But why are those two statements not valid from her point of view? Why are they unfair?


IMO this is her way of rugsweeping. the shutters come down hard, to hear the truth might mean having to entertain the idea of changing. 

I believe she needs to change these destructive behaviors. It's is unfair because it is used as an argumentative defensive tool to portray me as a negative controlling person.

Of course from her POV these statements are perfectly valid.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Doubts, natural. But where she makes an effort, consider accepting she is trying, even if not in the way you like.
> 
> Fights about money, about allocation of time, and about consumption of alcohol are common problems in relationships I have observed. Be wary of tying them to the fact that she cheated. She is entitled to have a different view from you.
> 
> Reconnecting takes time.


true, and it is something I have to face up to. it is hard to go with someone's POV when it is so obviously flawed IMO. Arrogant right? 

It's just that, like her old man, she will not give a bloody inch - even on destructive behavior. This tells me she does not want to work on us. there is no us. 

That bloody independent streak of hers which interprets the spectre of control descending in any suggestion or observation.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> IMO this is her way of rugsweeping. the shutters come down hard, to hear the truth might mean having to entertain the idea of changing.
> 
> I believe she needs to change these destructive behaviors. It's is unfair because it is used as an argumentative defensive tool to portray me as a negative controlling person.
> 
> Of course from her POV these statements are perfectly valid.


Well....truth is subjective. Let's take the least contentious. Why is her spending wrong? As opposed to different from what you would choose?

It's dangerous to be hardline about equating your preference with absolute truth.

Not trying to argue, trying to raise an alternate perspective


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> true, and it is something I have to face up to. it is hard to go with someone's POV when it is so obviously flawed IMO. Arrogant right?
> 
> It's just that, like her old man, she will not give a bloody inch - even on destructive behavior. This tells me she does not want to work on us. there is no us.
> 
> That bloody independent streak of hers which interprets the spectre of control descending in any suggestion or observation.


Well, I am challenging the notion that all of the differences are flaws.

IF you accept that some of the differences are differences, not flaws on either part, you them need to check your own thoughts for traces of arrogance.

Why am I raising this? Because your wife is who she is....she is not going to be a fundamentally different person. And you aren't going to move on...either to divorce or reconciliation..without accepting that.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Well, I am challenging the notion that all of the differences are flaws.
> 
> IF you accept that some of the differences are differences, not flaws on either part, you them need to check your own thoughts for traces of arrogance.
> 
> Why am I raising this? Because your wife is who she is....she is not going to be a fundamentally different person. And you aren't going to move on...either to divorce or reconciliation..without accepting that.


It's probably that 10 year age difference. I am the child of depression and war experienced parents. "keep an eye on the penny's and the pounds will take care of themselves".

I believe in paying down debt. My WS believes in spending frivolously. When I see our available $ (buffer) shrinking each year and I look where the $ are being spent I have to speak out. Correction - I used to.

I have told her when the sh!t hits the fan she can go and see the bank. I am not tight with money, I am careful with it. Not so her. "Who cares" she said.

So in a way I have changed, accepted, she never does. Ever.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> It's probably that 10 year age difference. I am the child of depression and war experienced parents. "keep an eye on the penny's and the pounds will take care of themselves".
> 
> I believe in paying down debt. My WS believes in spending frivolously. When I see our available $ (buffer) shrinking each year and I look where the $ are being spent I have to speak out. Correction - I used to.
> 
> I have told her when the sh!t hits the fan she can go and see the bank. I am not tight with money, I am careful with it. Not so her. "Who cares" she said.
> 
> So in a way I have changed, accepted, she never does. Ever.


My wife and I have similar arguments. She is coming around to my point of view. I can give you some ideas I have used, but that is off topic a bit. 

You will find when you have an income the negotiation changes. You can split expenses and you have some control. Anyway that is in the future. For now, just keep her infidelity, which is wrong and inexcusable, separate from other disagreements where there are two sides.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> My wife and I have similar arguments. She is coming around to my point of view. I can give you some ideas I have used, but that is off topic a bit.
> 
> You will find when you have an income the negotiation changes. You can split expenses and you have some control. Anyway that is in the future. For now, just keep her infidelity, which is wrong and inexcusable, separate from other disagreements where there are two sides.


Wazza, by all means PM me if you have any ideas. I'm an open book. Thanks for your feedback.

Just this exchange has helped me see myself and therefore understand some of her frustration. You'd pay big money for a pro to help with that.

She's just impossible to crack, in the sense that she is just not malleable. She must think it is a weakness. She gives very little away. All bottled up by the bottle.


----------



## Horizon

I suppose I should be grateful that the VAR revealed nothing. However what it revealed the very next day was instructive.

My WS really likes to play the f**k you party girl with her much younger work colleague. Yes, there is a mother daughter aspect but I do wonder what influence the much younger colleague has brought to their close friendship.

I noticed something disturbing. The colleague revealed that she was going to spend the night at another man's home and they joked & speculated whether she would get physical with him. You see the colleague has a long time boyfriend. Recently they had a sort of bust up.

It didn't stop my WS from asking her young friend "What are you going to tell .........?". What excuse for being absent on the weekend in other words. IPhone photos were displayed on route and the comments from my WS were affirming. 

All wrapped up in "Why not" comments etc and when the situation is right etc etc. My WS sure knows about that.

What a shame that my WS couldn't ad vise her to do the right thing by her longtime (ex) boyfriend. I'm certain that he'd rather not be pining for a reconciliation with someone who so quickly jumps into another's bed.

My WS didn't advise otherwise because she concurs. What they don't know won't hurt them. What a lousy piece of work.


----------



## turnera

Better off without someone with that mentality, for sure.


----------



## Acabado

Yet another evidence you can't possibly R with this woman; she's doesn't have toxic/enabler/cheering friends, she's the main one.
How can you R with a woman which vicariusly enjoy other's infidelities? If she's not currently cheating is because she doesn't feel like doing it, not because she believes's it's not OK.
You need to accept the kind of woman your wife is.


----------



## badmemory

Horizon,

The picture you have painted of your wife in all these posts, leaves one with the undeniable notion that she is irreparable. If this last VAR incident had been isolated, without her prior history, it would be bad enough.

But what it simply is; is a snapshot of her terminal mindset. She won't change. She will be more careful. It may take a while for you to catch her again. 

You can choose to ignore all the unremorseful behavior leading up to that point; and instead you can continue to look for the next smoking gun. But why?


----------



## Horizon

I can't deny your observations and I was looking for the good in what I was listening to. But the facts speak for themselves.

This young colleague started out by expressing that she would have to be a "good girl" because this bloke (where she met him was not properly audible) lived too far away. She agreed to the date and agreed to stay for the night because of the distance. The jokes centred around that the bloke would obviously "try it on".

IPhone pics revealed that he wasn't a bad "looker" - tall, rugged etc. - confirmed by my WS. 

My WS then ran with the idea by saying "couple of Margaritas, some good food, I'm there" (paraphrase but you get the picture). And that's the thing, my WS has always been like that - if the chemistry / situation is right, go for it - that was how we started. Except she was meant to leave that mindset behind 18 years ago.

The young colleague is IMO effectively seeking the OK (confessing) from my WS and my WS has absolved her. See, if I brought this up my WS would argue "but she's single now" - there'd always be a justification.

Wouldn't it be nice to hear my WS give some adult advice like "yeah, he's a hot man, but you know......., you really need to speak to........,because even though you had that bust up the other day you have been together for a long time and he has probably put it down as a blow out. It's not acceptable to jump into bed with someone else at this stage. Make certain your ex is really your ex"

But then again if my WS gave this type of advice she wouldn't be a WS would she - wrong! - she'd be a concerned hypocrite.


----------



## Horizon

Brilliant feedback let me say again. Truth hurts.

Wow and we have this big dinner date coming up and I am studiously going to avoid you know what and just have fun but....

Sitting opposite someone who....who I just can't believe, who I want to believe....

I am going to go in with a positive open mindset but I can't help but suspect that it will be a night out with good food and a couple of drinks (for me, of course I'll be driving) and shallow conversation.

Any talk that might arise about the A and how to move fwd will have to come from her side. If that happens I'm not looking fwd to fighting the opportunity to drive a semi-trailer through the inconsistencies and make-believe. But i will not wreck the night - bite your tongue and have fun will be my credo.


----------



## turnera

No matter what happens, DO NOT LIE FOR HER.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> No matter what happens, DO NOT LIE FOR HER.


Dead right T - that's the thing, if she starts with the BS I'll just have to keep an eye on the temp gauge. Besides we're grownups and WTF have I got to lose - truth is the only commodity I'm interested in.

Got my all clear from the Doc for the Gym - not just walks with the dog but some real good workouts after all these years. Job thing didn't go so well but I'm headed true north.


----------



## Horizon

Hey TAMers, I have been doing a bit of reading elsewhere on the subject of re-connection and intimacy etc. Just wondering, does anyone have any feedback on the return of intimacy / re-connection.

I know there are some success stories but it seems that they are few and far between. 

You have to imagine that the pro-active ways described in some of the reading suggested is not something I can see my WS being part of.

And to be honest I'm not keen on going through the process myself. I just can't see it working - perhaps I'm frightened of being rejected. 

For example, the idea of putting aside multiple hours for us to talk just will not happen - she wouldn't do that. I guess I'm just gun shy after such prolonged periods of no intimacy. 

Yes, I should try something but there has been so little coming from her side of the fence it seems almost pointless to start on a path of re-connecting, by whatever means. 

Maybe some of you could suggest other ways of breaking the ice, something else simple & practical - small steps. We are going out to this weekend for the first time in a long time and I'm opened minded but cautious.

(yes, why bother, I hear some of you say)


----------



## turnera

The only cases I can think of where true intimacy came back is when the cheater hit full-on rock bottom and came back on his/her knees. TRULY remorseful, aware of what they almost lost, and wholly grateful for the second chance. To the point that they would go to your parents and his/hers and admit what they did and beg forgiveness, kind of remorseful.

And that has NEVER happened, IME, except when the BS has truly walked away and was ready to be without the cheater.


----------



## Racer

It is so frustrating watching your story Horizon. I was like you. Seriously. How it played out... she started breaking NC. Did it in a way that she knew I couldn’t track and kick started her EA again. 

Throughout all of this, I see one single constant; She is in full control of you on both a emotional and action level. She doesn’t even have to take responsibility for it because you are doing it to yourself over and over and over. There is zero f’n reason for her to change at all; You put her in control of you. 

How many things have you talked yourself out of because “She’d never, she wouldn’t, she couldn’t,..........” She hasn’t even been tested yet or this idea brought up because you’ve already decided how she’d react and steered clear of anything that might upset the princess. And I know you are going “But Racer, I know her so well...” Do you? Are you really in her head? And when did how she feels about things become more important to you than how you feel about it? When the hell did you become her doormat? Is that attractive? Is that what you want to be? 

You already know she doesn’t think like that at all; She puts “self” over you. AND YOU FOLLOW HER LEAD. Stop it! Just stop it already.. This is not working is it!? Seriously, stop worrying or fretting or trying to second guess her or seek specific outcomes... Just focus on what you want, state it, and do it. “I want to spend time with you.” Then do. My wife didn’t because she was petty and vindictive (and scared to be alone with me) thus made excuses. 

So, I found ways to entertain myself and let it show that she hurt my feelings; 180 heavy and hard. (Avoiding passive/aggressive things just to piss her off) It was about me looking in that mirror and liking that guy. I didn’t care what she saw, I cared about what I saw in myself. So, I did stuff for me to rebuild my own self-esteem without her help or input. She became a ‘non-person’ like a screaming vagrant giving opinions about life... And every now and then, I’d ask her if she wanted to join me in whatever it was I decided I wanted to do; and sometimes, she asked and I’d tell her no if I really didn’t want her there with me. And lol, that’s also a good time to use a revolving argument by throwing her own words back in her face. You don’t have to be a ****, just be a fully functional independent person. I thought back to who I was before when we dated. I didn’t need her then to define me, and my tolerance levels were much lower... So I became that guy again. That’s the same dude she fell in love with.

An idea to build some of that intimacy. Early after DD, I too remember those awkward times. So... We did Wii “Biggest Loser” and exercised together. No talking really, just sweating. An hour or more every other night. It expanded, slowly... tv shows we'd watch together, then date nights (movies). Lots of stuff that didn't require a lot of 'talking'. But there'd be some. And that too expanded over time. Think of it like dating her again and you are both shy as hell and afraid the other person might not like you...


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> The only cases I can think of where true intimacy came back is when the cheater hit full-on rock bottom and came back on his/her knees. TRULY remorseful, aware of what they almost lost, and wholly grateful for the second chance. To the point that they would go to your parents and his/hers and admit what they did and beg forgiveness, kind of remorseful.
> 
> And that has NEVER happened, IME, except when the BS has truly walked away and was ready to be without the cheater.


First sorry about the long post. 

Now, not trying to pick an argument..but what does it mean? "In your experience". Is that real life friends? Stories on TAM? Something else?

What you write doesn't accord with my experience, and it feels a little like repeating a TAM orthodoxy (hence my challenge).

If you could offer more information of what experiences informed your opinion, it might give Horizon what he needs to think through your suggestion.

My understanding is that you have been active on TAM a while, and done a lot of reading on the nature of relationships - one of the better educated people around here on the theory. But that you have not walked away from your own relationship yet (or if you have it's recent) and you are not counselling lots of marriages outside TAM. Is that accurate, and if so is your reading the basis of the comment? And I apologise, but I don't remember the details of your marital issues. 

In my own marriage, we have redefined what intimacy is. I would say we are more intimate than at any prior point. Truly intimate because it is less based on illusions. But it does not and never again will feel complete and perfect. That feeling perfection was always an illusion...the affair shattered the illusion.

Likewise if I leave her, I wil never have that illusion with another. In fact the true intimacy with my wife includes understanding of her faults and accepting her, as she accepts mine. Note this is not the same thing as accepting and enabling her faults!

On TAM...a quick mental recap of the reconcilers I have followed, I don't know that they follow your pattern always. B1 and EI for example. But in general the active TAM threads I see are more often about breakup than reconciliation. For a start this place is very anti WS. I cannot see how any reconciling couple stays in the broader TAM community. I think it would be a drag on moving past things. Too much focus in negatives, pain, payback and tests.

And I cannot see going to parents and admitting as any sort of acid test. Who cares? My parents were never told of my wife's affair. Her parents knew. I told them, because I asked them to support her at a time when I thought we weren't going to make it. No sense of blowing up the affair.

Horizon, have a look at B1's "Reconciliation" thread. It is about the only place where I see reconciliations tracked "long term" in TAM. Some of the couples there have been there 18 months. And the posters on that thread (as well as the mods) don't allow the sort of WS shellacking that goes on elsewhere on TAM. No free passes, just a lot more constructive discussion. It might get you some ideas. 

Mr Blunt, like me, is a long term reconciler (over 20 years). Our stories are different. He is closer to Turnera's pattern than I am. He divorced his wife, kept living with her, and remarried later. Rookie4 has been in reconciliation over a year, I think. He and his wife divorced. He moved on, she worked on herself. Later they got back together..the story of that is in his thread. He is the most like Turnera's pattern I can think of. (And he thinks I was way too soft on Mrs Wazza!) Maybe Dig and Regret also fit her pattern. Frostflower just took her husband back. He was remorseful, and she accepted his remorse. No head kicking. She wonders if she was too soft, she would like him to work on things more. But she is just happy to be together again. All of these guys except Frostflower and Blunt have their stories in the Reconciliation thread. Frostflower has her own journal thread, Blunt and i have exchanged details all over the place...best to PM him if you want his story. And each story is different.

WorkingAtIt is a bit like you in that she had to work on herself as part of fixing the marriage. Think she is ok, she doesn't post any more. 

There are some examples you can read up to get you started. Let me know if you need help finding those stories.

Tuenera, it happens I think you and I agree about the need for Horizon to carve a position of independence for himself. But to me at least, that is about working on him and putting himself in a position where he will be ok if the marriage fails. It is also addressing some serious weaknesses I see in the marriage, that stand alone apart from the affair. It is not a recipe to crush his wife underfoot and drag her snivelling and contrite back to the cave, or whatever. She has faults (as we all do) and even if she works on the, they will always be part of her. Some if those faults contributed to the affair. The question is what has she learned, what is she changing? And we don't know that yet because they are not having effective dialog. The home is still a battleground, too soon to say Horizon and Mrs Horizon are reconciling IMO.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Hey TAMers, I have been doing a bit of reading elsewhere on the subject of re-connection and intimacy etc. Just wondering, does anyone have any feedback on the return of intimacy / re-connection.
> 
> I know there are some success stories but it seems that they are few and far between.
> 
> You have to imagine that the pro-active ways described in some of the reading suggested is not something I can see my WS being part of.
> 
> And to be honest I'm not keen on going through the process myself. I just can't see it working - perhaps I'm frightened of being rejected.
> 
> For example, the idea of putting aside multiple hours for us to talk just will not happen - she wouldn't do that. I guess I'm just gun shy after such prolonged periods of no intimacy.
> 
> Yes, I should try something but there has been so little coming from her side of the fence it seems almost pointless to start on a path of re-connecting, by whatever means.
> 
> Maybe some of you could suggest other ways of breaking the ice, something else simple & practical - small steps. We are going out to this weekend for the first time in a long time and I'm opened minded but cautious.
> 
> (yes, why bother, I hear some of you say)


Gee, after my last post I have really used up my quota on your thread, but here goes. 

The last conversation she reported, where she was asking you to move on...could actually have been her trying to work in things in my opinion. Just not in the way you are looking for.

Engage, persist, take your time. And work on you like we have been saying. Don't see your goal as dealing with her affair. See your goal as building a healthy marriage.

I just worked on one thing at a time. It took forever...the affair was 23 years ago and the process continues, not sure it will ever end. It is a bit like eating an elephant...there is a lot to get through and at first it is hard to see the difference you are making. Later on it gets clearer.

The affair was a defining and shocking period in our relationship, but I think a lot of what I am working through I would have had to anyway, because they are issues with the core relationship. The affair was a symptom, not the cause.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> I suppose I should be grateful that the VAR revealed nothing. However what it revealed the very next day was instructive.
> 
> My WS really likes to play the f**k you party girl with her much younger work colleague. Yes, there is a mother daughter aspect but I do wonder what influence the much younger colleague has brought to their close friendship.
> 
> I noticed something disturbing. The colleague revealed that she was going to spend the night at another man's home and they joked & speculated whether she would get physical with him. You see the colleague has a long time boyfriend. Recently they had a sort of bust up.
> 
> It didn't stop my WS from asking her young friend "What are you going to tell .........?". What excuse for being absent on the weekend in other words. IPhone photos were displayed on route and the comments from my WS were affirming.
> 
> All wrapped up in "Why not" comments etc and when the situation is right etc etc. My WS sure knows about that.
> 
> What a shame that my WS couldn't ad vise her to do the right thing by her longtime (ex) boyfriend. I'm certain that he'd rather not be pining for a reconciliation with someone who so quickly jumps into another's bed.
> 
> My WS didn't advise otherwise because she concurs. What they don't know won't hurt them. What a lousy piece of work.


Hat trick....

While I might have given advice more along your lines..the fact is your wife is giving advice here to a woman who regards herself as unattached. Two adults who presumably believe promiscuous sex between consenting adults is ok.

And, while I would have considered using a VAR in your position, you are now confronting the downside. You know these secrets. Secrets get in the way of intimacy. But admitting to your wife you are spying on her will create strain. What are you going to do about that?

And for that matter, what conversations have you had that you would never want your wife to hear. What thoughts do you long to keep private? Fantasies about other women maybe? Genuine lust for another woman, even though not acted upon? Times when you were blowing off steam, bellyaching about her behind her back after a fight.....

Whatever standards you apply to her, you have to apply them to yourself. 

So are you going to keep using that VAR?


----------



## turnera

Wazza, I meant of all the 'cases' I've watched unfold here, at MA, at MB, and at LS over the past 10-12 years. Yes, people have reconciled without it. But more often than not, the BS then comes back and says 'it's not there, the spark, he/she doesn't feel connected to me, I don't know why I'm not feeling better or why he/she isn't committing and doing all she can.'

IMO, that means they reconciled because it was conveninent, it was what they knew, not because the WS realized he/she couldn't live without her spouse.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Wazza, I meant of all the 'cases' I've watched unfold here, at MA, at MB, and at LS over the past 10-12 years. Yes, people have reconciled without it. But more often than not, the BS then comes back and says 'it's not there, the spark, he/she doesn't feel connected to me, I don't know why I'm not feeling better or why he/she isn't committing and doing all she can.'
> 
> IMO, that means they reconciled because it was conveninent, it was what they knew, not because the WS realized he/she couldn't live without her spouse.


Fair comment. Dunno about the other websites. I just wouldn't decide everything on the basis of TAM, for the reasons I said in my earlier post.

I guess I think you have to deal with the underlying relationship issues. TAM sometimes doesn't go beyond the affair. Seems to assume that acknowledging other problems is tantamount to offering excuses for the affair. Not a perspective I agree with.

There was a time when I thought Mrs Wazza and I would never have the spark again. It came back over time. Think I recall Blunt writing something similar.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Gee, after my last post I have really used up my quota on your thread, but here goes.
> 
> The last conversation she reported, where she was asking you to move on...could actually have been her trying to work in things in my opinion. Just not in the way you are looking for.
> 
> Engage, persist, take your time. And work on you like we have been saying. Don't see your goal as dealing with her affair. See your goal as building a healthy marriage.
> 
> I just worked on one thing at a time. It took forever...the affair was 23 years ago and the process continues, not sure it will ever end. It is a bit like eating an elephant...there is a lot to get through and at first it is hard to see the difference you are making. Later on it gets clearer.
> 
> The affair was a defining and shocking period in our relationship, but I think a lot of what I am working through I would have had to anyway, because they are issues with the core relationship. The affair was a symptom, not the cause.


I'm worried I have lost so much respect for her that I just want to tell her to f**k off. Last night a blow-up happened based on a small incident where my son broke a jar of coffee. Because I had placed the coffee with the plates and saucers due to overloading of the upper pantry shelf, I was drawn into it and effectively blamed by my WS. The remark made, while my WS swept up the mess was unnecessary. I had just been out for 2 hours with my daughter. I wasn't going to cop that.

Also the best part of 1/2 a bottle of whisky had been consumed. See the triggers on a micro level let alone the A elephant constantly in the room. This then lead to comments like "When you have to work every day" and "When you get a job" and "Go and sleep it off" and "You are arrogant and stubborn like you Father, you are your Father's daughter". 

I even created a thread on resentments (GRD) after the blow-up. It just looks petty I'm sure.

And we are meant to be having this wonderful dinner tomorrow night. I think we can't stand each other but we are doing what is familiar. MC much - I'll run that by her again seeing as the lounge has been bought and she can't use that as a reason to delay. What a joke.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Hat trick....
> 
> While I might have given advice more along your lines..the fact is your wife is giving advice here to a woman who regards herself as unattached. Two adults who presumably believe promiscuous sex between consenting adults is ok.
> 
> And, while I would have considered using a VAR in your position, you are now confronting the downside. You know these secrets. Secrets get in the way of intimacy. But admitting to your wife you are spying on her will create strain. What are you going to do about that?
> 
> And for that matter, what conversations have you had that you would never want your wife to hear. What thoughts do you long to keep private? Fantasies about other women maybe? Genuine lust for another woman, even though not acted upon? Times when you were blowing off steam, bellyaching about her behind her back after a fight.....
> 
> Whatever standards you apply to her, you have to apply them to yourself.
> 
> So are you going to keep using that VAR?


I believe that I will eventually catch her out with irrefutable evidence. In time she will do it again. Is that TAM mind control? If so she is gone. You recommend dropping occasional VAR?


----------



## doubletrouble

Depends on what you are going to do with the VAR info. If it just pisses you off and you do nothing about it, all you are doing is feeding your fire. If you get information then take action based on concrete evidence of what you know, then the fire takes HER. 

So far it seems all you guys do is argue, drink too much, and sit in separate corners. Where is the "fix" for this broken relationship?

Takes two to tango. Do your part.


----------



## Acabado

Horizon said:


> I *believe that I will eventually catch her out with irrefutable evidence.* In time she will do it again. Is that TAM mind control? If so she is gone. You recommend dropping occasional VAR?


And the what, then she's gone?

Give me a break Horizon, are you really pretending her behavior after this time you caught her is not a dealbreaker? That if you had the meanings to get out of this marriage (stable, well paid job) you wouldn't be divorced by now?

This is the woman who mocks you and tell you you can't get any woman.
She's the one that still, after all this time not even got an STD test.
She's the woman who still denies sex (how much time now?)
She's the woman who gets drunk almost every night.
She's the woman who verbally abuses you on a dayly basis.
She's the woman who lost the empathy chip yearas ago (if ever had one).
She's the woma nwho shows her disgust nad lack of respect with every conversation.
She's the woman who will spin the reality and deflect everything so you can't have a decent conversation.
She's the woman who does as she please because she's the one who put the money on the table and brings this fact over every time she's callend on... anything (again did it yesterday).
She's the woman incapable of any kind of intimacy (not just sex).

And the dealbreaker is another affair?
Please, be honest with yourself, nothing could worse now.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> I believe that I will eventually catch her out with irrefutable evidence. In time she will do it again. Is that TAM mind control? If so she is gone. You recommend dropping occasional VAR?


If you believe she will do it again, and you are going to keep spying...then why are you still there?

She already did it, you have your trigger.

You cannot have an open, honest, caring relationship while you are lying to her.


----------



## workindad

Acabado said:


> And the what, then she's gone?
> 
> Give me a break Horizon, are you really pretending her behavior after this time you caught her is not a dealbreaker? That if you had the meanings to get out of this marriage (stable, well paid job) you wouldn't be divorced by now?
> 
> This is the woman who mocks you and tell you you can't get any woman.
> She's the one that still, after all this time not even got an STD test.
> She's the woman who still denies sex (how much time now?)
> She's the woman who gets drunk almost every night.
> She's the woman who verbally abuses you on a dayly basis.
> She's the woman who lost the empathy chip yearas ago (if ever had one).
> She's the woma nwho shows her disgust nad lack of respect with every conversation.
> She's the woman who will spin the reality and deflect everything so you can't have a decent conversation.
> She's the woman who does as she please because she's the one who put the money on the table and brings this fact over every time she's callend on... anything (again did it yesterday).
> She's the woman incapable of any kind of intimacy (not just sex).
> 
> And the dealbreaker is another affair?
> Please, be honest with yourself, nothing could worse now.


Read what Acabado wrote carefully... Does this sound like the life that you want or the example of a marriage that you want to project for your kids. Do you want them to grow and accept this type of behavior from their spouse because it is what they saw you accept growing up?

It's your life. It's your choice to take action and make the best of it.


----------



## carpenoctem

Reflections vis a vis some earlier posts on this page, and some striking stories of Reconciliation on TAM, in that context:


In B1 and EI’s case, her husband denied her sex and physical intimacy and their emotional accompaniments, for years. She warned him clearly that if she did not get these from her spouse, she would be forced to look elsewhere. Still, he did not change / try to change that aspect of their marriage. And she resorted to infidelity.

(It turned out that he was testosterone-deficient, and there WAS a solution within the marriage – but that was a later realization).

From an external POV, *there was a tangible, credible, serious infraction on the BH’s part, to juxtapose with the WW’s infidelity. *That makes it DIFFERENT from this (Horizon's) case.

(Not to equate infidelity with anything).





In Wazza’s case, after discovering his wife’s infidelity, he continued in the marriage only for the children (at that stage, it was not a Reconciliation, but an adjustment under duress), and as years passed thus under the same roof, they rediscovered their worth to each other through communication, and rekindled the marriage.

Wazza and I have discussed this before, but time-healing, while they shared physical space and life’s responsibilities, and the WW being amenable and vulnerable, was a major factor in this. That makes it DIFFERENT from this (Horizon's) case.




Matt Matt’s case is a miracle standing on its head – he was pre-warned by his wife that she would have an affair if a particular old flame of hers returned, and he did, and she did (have the affair). The gauntlet was: if he couldn’t take it, he could leave. He did not. She had her affair while in the marriage, staying in the same house as her husband… …the affair over, she came back to him, never showed real remorse, and he did not ask for any. She even showed astonishment when he showed any serious hurt about the affair. He totally rugswept the affair, never rubbed it on her face, and they reconstructed the marriage. He showed more remorse for his near RA later than she ever did for her in-your-face, year-long(?) affair.

His case is DIFFERENT from this (Horizon's) case. *Heck, from almost ANY case on TAM.
*





In TheGuy’s case, he was physically abusive of her, and sexually, treated her like a sex worker, for many years (by his own admission). She retaliated by sleeping around profligately (20 men?). Then, she stopped the infidelity, and he stopped the abuse. And they rebuilt the marriage. A rare feat.

Here too, there was a tangible, credible, serious infraction on the BH’s part, to juxtapose with the WW’s infidelity. That makes it DIFFERENT from this (Horizon's) case.





Yes, deep inside, EVERY case is different, but since we are drawing some comparisons, this aspect perhaps needs to be doctored in.

In these cases (TheGuy, B1, and some other cases here), *the forbearance shown by the BH after discovering the spouse’s infidelity (which eventually led to the reconciliation), must be weighed in light of their realization that they had inflicted serious (divorce-inducing level) damage on the marriage too* (and the Reconciliation must be weighed in light of the WS’s amenable / recompensatory attitude).

In many / most other cases, the BS’s major fault was being one part of a somewhat dysfunctional, lazy marriage, which had fallen victim to routine and boredom, or was beset with life’s many challenges, like most marriages are. Not much more, not much less. The BS stuck with it, the WS strayed.

To come to the case in point: Horizon’s case, as far as we know (from his rendition), is one of the breadwinner losing respect for the non-earning home manager, taking him for granted despite his daily contributions to the running of the family, having some strange on the side as entitlement, and then when discovered, being defiant, unrepentant, and being a reluctant traveller in the Reconciliation wagon, refusing most of the BH’s demands, knowing / believing he cannot get any better, denies him sex even now… …with the irony being, the more he perseveres, the more she seems to lose respect for him, and consciously / subconsciously, pushes / dares him.

In Horizon’s case, as far as we know, there is no infraction of a serious nature on his part, to juxtapose with her infidelity, in order to warrant an even platform of reconciliation. It is as lopsided as most cases of infidelity are (then again, as they say, if you want to reconcile, you better forget about fairness - whatever be the nature of infidelity)

And the current situation looks like: *he wants to reconcile, while she might at best, RELENT.* It is far too lopsided.

To draw wisdom for reconciliation from those (earlier mentioned) cases for Horizon’s situation, seems pretty incongruous.

But if it works, why not? I guess.

(Maybe she will eventually see in his perseverance the guarantee / blessing of the presence of a ‘till death’ spouse, and learn to value it). Maybe.


P.S.:
Matt Matt, TheGuy: your stories were mentioned because of seeming relevance. I apologize if it was an annoying reminder.


----------



## Wazza

Zugz, I would not say there was any infraction on my part that led to Mrs Wazza's affair. There were pressures, but they were either beyond our control or the result of decisions we took together. Or in the case of enabling social circles, decisions in which I had no part.

I am also unsure about your comment that it was not a reconciliation at first. Reconciliation is small steps. My rage in the early days was at least as great as that Horizon is dealing with now, and the first challenge was to get to the point where we could be effective coparents, so there was work going on that was ultimately part of the reconciliation. Like being in the same room without losing it 

But I didn't have a strategy. Even today I continue to work on the marriage, and think I will to the day I die. How much of that is reconciliation and how much is working on things that needed work apart from the affair?


----------



## Chaparral

You are a stay at home dad. She calls you your fathers daughter. This ain't rocket science and you certainly aren't the first stay at home dad to come here and absolutely refuse to look in the mirror.

Just thought I would drop by and see that your wheels were still spinning in the mud.


----------



## Horizon

Chaparral said:


> You are a stay at home dad. She calls you your fathers daughter. This ain't rocket science and you certainly aren't the first stay at home dad to come here and absolutely refuse to look in the mirror.
> 
> Just thought I would drop by and see that your wheels were still spinning in the mud.


The last 2 quotes were from me to her during the short blow out. She is her Father's daughter alright.

I cleared the decks today on last night's blow out and a host of unspoken issues over recent weeks. No aggro, just up front opinion. She copped it fair and square because I did not try to beat her about the head with it. I did this so there would not be any bad vibes for our night out tomorrow.

Excluding the massive elephant in the room of course. Gotta try and have some fun no matter what


----------



## r0r0bin

you already lost your dignity as a man by not divorcing annd ignoring her now enjoy your limbo. stop ranting as you already accept her and gave 2nd chance


----------



## Headspin

I have to be honest horizon I have no idea at all what you are trying to achiev in this anymore I really don't


----------



## treyvion

Headspin said:


> I have to be honest horizon I have no idea at all what you are trying to achiev in this anymore I really don't


The last two statements sum it up.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

You are completely wasting your time with her. Read your thread and see this. If you wish to continue being a beta male allowing yourself to be controlled by her then so be it.

Sad really. Time to man up and declare your needs. If she can meet them, there is something to work toward, if she is only willing to do as she wishes all the time then there is no point.

Obviously I believe she is too selfish to listen and react, I feel this is due to both her learned childhood behavior and her general lack of respect for you.


----------



## turnera

How's the job hunt going?


----------



## Horizon

Missed those two jobs - an ageism thing I believe, but I have another iron in the fire for an on road sales position (fingers crossed). I'm chasing down these types of jobs specifically now because there is flexibility time wise and I have a mountain of experience.

My attitude now is that I'm giving "us" until the family trip at years end. I reckon I'll have a good idea of what she is prepared to really do well before then anyway. Yesterday I reminded her I fully expect her to be hands on (drop the jokes folks) now. 

I'm not confident she can make the changes I'd like to see. Yes, I have given her undeserved latitude but the string can only stretch so far. If you think this will be a permanent state you are wrong - but as I said I will see this year out for better or worse.

That's why I believe tonight's dinner will be instructive. Yes, we'll have fun but I think it will reveal just enough, without riffing on the topic, to demonstrate her willingness to be proactive. 

In the end her actions, almost non-existent so far, will obviously tell all. Yes, I'm basically giving her a last chance to step up.


----------



## Enginerd

Horizon's story has always been unbelievable to me. Usually people in such deep denial would not write about the subject of their denial in such descriptive detail with this amount of enthusiasm. I still get the impression that he(?) writes these posts to satisfy his(?) need for creating some drama. Sort of personal entertainment full of partial truths.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

"Another" is not spelled L-A-S-T.

Sorry, every time I think you are making headway, you run backwards. 

You are so broken, you complimented the other man. I bet you didn't even realize what you did. No, that isn't honesty, that is the sign of a broken ego with self esteem issues.


----------



## Horizon

Hmmm....how did I compliment the OM? i think you're making the mistake of lumping everyone in together. Each situ is different. I have never been in a place like this in my life - I don't deny a lot of the flak that has desrevedly been sent my way but I have to handle it my way. 

My WS has given enough signals despite our occasional blow outs that she does get it. But she hasn't acted - that's the killer. I'm giving her less than between now and the end of the year - if things spin out as I suspect I'll be here anyway. I want my children to experience this special holiday without any angst. Even if we split up our accommodation and separate it will not be acrimonious. 

"broken ego and self esteem issues" - yeah, that's me alright.


----------



## Horizon

Enginerd said:


> Horizon's story has always been unbelievable to me. Usually people in such deep denial would not write about the subject of their denial in such descriptive detail with this amount of enthusiasm. I still get the impression that he(?) writes these posts to satisfy his(?) need for creating some drama. Sort of personal entertainment full of partial truths.


BS - I like to write, embellishments are in style only and I like to add humor - that's my thing, it ease the pain I guess. Everything I have stated since April this year is true as I see it.

However I agree that there is a level of satisfaction in putting this down. There is a level of personal entertainment and a need to generate drama. That is a failing in my personality I suppose. 

But I needed TAM to be able to see through the layers of WS BS and find out some truth about my WS and find out about me as well. I needed TAM to see what was really going on. 

OK I'm spinning my wheels but that's how it has to be right now.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> BS - I like to write, embellishments are in style only and I like to add humor - that's my thing, it ease the pain I guess. Everything I have stated since April this year is true as I see it.
> 
> However I agree that there is a level of satisfaction in putting this down. There is a level of personal entertainment and a need to generate drama. That is a failing in my personality I suppose.
> 
> But I needed TAM to be able to see through the layers of WS BS and find out some truth about my WS and find out about me as well. I needed TAM to see what was really going on.
> 
> OK I'm spinning my wheels but that's how it has to be right now.


It's real powerful if you can compartamentalize her crap and cut it out of your life and focus on what you need to be doing along with personal enjoyment...

If she's going to be a WAS it's no need to worry about her. If she's going to come home, she's going to come home. If she's not coming home now, you may as well llet her go to the OM, seperate yourself. Make that powerful phase shift of not allowing interrupters and disrespectors to have a large influence on your life.


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> It's real powerful if you can compartamentalize her crap and cut it out of your life and focus on what you need to be doing along with personal enjoyment...
> 
> If she's going to be a WAS it's no need to worry about her. If she's going to come home, she's going to come home. If she's not coming home now, you may as well llet her go to the OM, seperate yourself. Make that powerful phase shift of not allowing interrupters and disrespectors to have a large influence on your life.


Yep, it takes strength, I can see that. But that's part of it. There is plenty to criticise in me and my less than inspiring fits and starts but I have to do it this way for a number of reasons already outlined.

My gut tells me she will never be able to change an iota of her behavior and it will come down to that day when I tell her it is not enough. I can't wait for her to be attracted to me again and it is not a case of me just getting over it.

As for my life in general this whole upheaval has been positive in a few ways. One is I don't take crap anymore - family, friends, strangers I just tell 'em my feelings. A brother of mine has been pulling status sh!t on me for years - he tried it again recently and I told him to f**k right off, to grow up or don't bother communicating with me at all. 

Boy did he get a shock and the behavior stopped (not that we are that close anyway but I needed to say that to him instead of my normal position of keeping the peace). Mum wasn't happy but, well....too bad.


----------



## Headspin

Horizon said:


> BS - I like to write, embellishments are in style only and I like to add humor - that's my thing, it ease the pain I guess. Everything I have stated since April this year is true as I see it.
> 
> *However I agree that there is a level of satisfaction in putting this down. There is a level of personal entertainment and a need to generate drama. That is a failing in my personality I suppose.*
> 
> But I needed TAM to be able to see through the layers of WS BS and find out some truth about my WS and find out about me as well. I needed TAM to see what was really going on.
> 
> OK I'm spinning my wheels but that's how it has to be right now.


Do you not see that makes all this become you simply satisfying your needs, seeking attention, almost using the drama for your own ends. 

I sense you are losing sympathy and credibility horizon.

You are in a terrible situation and I sympathize but I also sense you are almost enjoying that on here
There is a truly 'pathetic' (proper definition) element to that I'm afraid


----------



## tom67

Here is alpha IT TAKES A THIEF Opening Titles - YouTube


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Horizon said:


> Hmmm....how did I compliment the OM? i think you're making the mistake of lumping everyone in together.


No, I misread your post.


> IPhone pics revealed that he wasn't a bad "looker" - tall, rugged etc. - confirmed by my WS.
> 
> My WS then ran with the idea by saying "couple of Margaritas, some good food, I'm there" (paraphrase but you get the picture). And that's the thing, my WS has always been like that - if the chemistry / situation is right, go for it - that was how we started. Except she was meant to leave that mindset behind 18 years ago.
> 
> The young colleague is IMO effectively seeking the OK (confessing) from my WS and my WS has absolved her. See, if I brought this up my WS would argue "but she's single now" - there'd always be a justification.


 I thought you were talking about the young colleague your wife was talking to being male. I missed the part that she was female, I apologize.



> Each situ is different. I have never been in a place like this in my life - I don't deny a lot of the flak that has desrevedly been sent my way but I have to handle it my way.


 Look, I standby everything, but the compliment mistake in my post. 

You have given her another chance to step up, not a last. 
You say she gives you signals, but continues down the same road.
You comment on her actions give truth, but they don't.

It is things like this that make me say you are going backwards. This is basically a summarized version of many of your posts roughly two months ago. There are three our four other posts, scattered through your recent postings, that sound like you are regressing. 

You are basically back where you started. You just have a new reason to keep reconciling, the family trip. You keep adding reasons to keep the marriage going when you are hurting and stressing. I feel terrible that you didn't get the jobs, but let me express something to you. You do know it may not be an ageism thing, it may be that the stress is written all over your body language? I've been in job interviews while training to be a recruiter. I didn't like taking a person's life into my hands and stopped. Seriously, you learn to the tell the difference between nervousness and serious stress. 



It is your life, you do what you want and I have never said anything different. I actually stopped posting, instead of derailing, when you said "let me handle it my way" nearly two months ago.


----------



## Horizon

Headspin said:


> Do you not see that makes all this become you simply satisfying your needs, seeking attention, almost using the drama for your own ends.
> 
> I sense you are losing sympathy and credibility horizon.
> 
> You are in a terrible situation and I sympathize but I also sense you are almost enjoying that on here
> There is a truly 'pathetic' (proper definition) element to that I'm afraid


This is the other half of the story then, the bit that is leaking out now. Maybe the truth is my attention seeking is so great that it is this very thing that is f**king up my relationships. My frustration with not getting the attention I needed lead me to slowly turn bitter and she could only cop so much. Hey I'm shrinking my own head here - I must need some serious psychotherapy.

Otherwise the night out went OK. If there is a better southern Italian noshery than that joint in Sydney right now I'd love to eat there.

So my WS loved all of it and spoke of re-connecting and doing something like this much more regularly. She touched me frequently and put her arm in mine just about all the time. It was a good night. But zero you know what. I guess I'm just meant to wait. No 

I have to be honest, I do not have a clue what to do to attract her. That chemistry is gone - I really don't think she can get it back. Guess I'll just have to find a f**k buddy.


----------



## Horizon

tom67 said:


> Here is alpha IT TAKES A THIEF Opening Titles - YouTube


Huh? watched a bit of this when I was a kid. And....


----------



## alte Dame

It might not happen that you get the chemistry back, but it is possible. If you work on yourself, on your physical condition and professional situation & thereby your self-respect and self-esteem, this flows out to everyone around you. This helps you, but also changes the way others view you. Keep working on you. You haven't been at that long enough to really see the effects it can have. Try to discipline yourself to routinely channel your energy into working positively on yourself.


----------



## Remains

I have just finished reading your thread. I started it some time ago, cane back to it thinking there would be some movement with so many pages. But there is none. Which is why, I guess, posters are getting frustrated. The anger is there, but no movement to change it. Advice is falling on deaf ears. Now, if you are just blogging in order to get your feelings out that is one thing. If you are requesting advice continually and kind of listening while ignoring, that is another. I know it isn't as black and white as that, but it is difficult to keep giving advice to someone asking for it who then does little to change the situation.

In saying that though, it is good to see that you are trying in some ways to improve YOU...i.e. gym, job situation.

I can understand somewhat in your lacking of action. You are only about 4 months past DD? I found the 1st 3 months I was in a complete daze. 3-6 months I began to make a little sense of it all and begin to put it into perspective. And if I continued posting every bit of my relationship as you do, I would have equally frustrated posters. I am just over 2 years past DD now, and to address some of the points made some pages back, mine has not been a classic R. My partner is not classically remorseful. I will tell you what worked for me, in the hope that some of it may strike a chord. 

I, like you, wanted him to act a certain way, to say and do the right things. To get to the real truth of it all. And in my opinion, I imagine you have a large part if the truth. I don't think I have as much as you do, however, this is not a competition. She wants to talk with you to a certain degree, has initiated talks. I have not had that. You have a few things to hold on to that give you some hope that she is serious...I believe I now have a lot to show mine is serious...though it has taken hard work to get there...

I think the only thing you can do that will really heal you is to work on you, on being independent. To get to a place where you will be absolutely fine, good even, with or without her. You have been given this advice a lot, and I will reitterate it. Once you detach enough to be less dependant on her and her actions, when you realise you cannot control her and can only control you, once you feel good about yourself and what you do, once you create your boundaries, make her aware of them, and stick to them, then you will be in a better place. This is all about you. And only you. If she wants to be a part of that, then it is the more the merrier. If she doesn't, then no problem. 

I think another thing you have to do is make her more aware of your needs. Voice them. Without the expectation on her to satisfy them. Voice them in a neutral way with no need for her to step up and sort out your needs. This also comes with an acceptance of her, of your situation. You have to accept all that has happened so YOU can move on. That doesn't mean you will still be there if your needs are not met. And certainly not if she strays again...I hope. But acceptance of what you cannot change is key. 

I found that acceptance of him, and letting go, was the key to my situation. I have found that in detaching, accepting, and letting go, I feel he is more in love with me than ever. More attentive, more everything. 

He is not an open person, he struggles with giving difficult truths. I may never get them. That doesn't mean I will still be here years down the line if I never get them, but I accept him a lot more than I did. And he makes effort in many ways to show his love. Practical ways. And loving ways. I don't think he will ever give me what I need in regards to the A, but he gives me most of what I need now. 

Is he worth the risk? I think he may be. But that is never an absolute. I am ready to leave in a split second if he screws me over again. I don't need him. But I do love him, like being with him, and all that is very obviously returned.

Don't know if any of that helps....I do know that you need to clear your head, that you need to concentrate on you. That you need to let all of that go which holds you so angry and bitter, and deal with it all in a much more positive way. I don't know if your feelings of betrayal are linked too heavily with your past, that you connect the 2 and all your past is bundled up in your present and so your feelings are all connected and lashing out is not just this as a situation that stands alone, but all if it in one big pot if sh*t. 

Let go, concentrate on you, open up to her more in a positive way regarding your needs, stop banging your head on the same wall...it hurts, know that if she does this again there is nothing you can do about it, nothing you can do to stop her, accept what you cannot control, make a better life for you.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> That chemistry is gone - I really don't think she can get it back. Guess I'll just have to find a f**k buddy.


Or, here's a novel thought...an actual WIFE who WANTS to have sex with her HUSBAND.


----------



## life101

Horizon said:


> So my WS loved all of it and spoke of re-connecting and doing something like this much more regularly. She touched me frequently and put her arm in mine just about all the time. It was a good night. But zero you know what. I guess I'm just meant to wait. No
> 
> I have to be honest, I do not have a clue what to do to attract her. That chemistry is gone - I really don't think she can get it back. Guess I'll just have to find a f**k buddy.


For women, it all comes from the mind. She has to respect you in some ways in order to rekindle that spark. Remember why she fell in love with you in the first place? A woman will never want you if she thinks that you are not desired by any other woman who is at least as good as she is. So you have to raise your sex rank, may be by working out or getting a better job or achieving something that her other suitors cannot.

And please correct me if I am wrong, but are you talking about a reverse affair? After what you went through? It never works and you will be better off divorcing your WS and then jumping into the dating scene. My apologies if I understood it wrong.


----------



## Horizon

First I want to say thank you to everyone who has offered some insight and suggestions. For the regulars in particular, a big thank you. 

Please be reassured - I do know what to do. I'd have a pretty good idea by now based on the number of times TAM "friends" have come back to remind me. It is just the doing. It has taken me until now to get really motivated to actually join the gym after some casual visits - read false starts. In fact false starts were everywhere even up to the last week or so - just on 4 months from DDay.

I only recently finally saw that the best jobs and most likely jobs I'd get were what I did before. The heavy vehicle driving had been my answer to be regularly employed (perm part-time with extra work some days). It suited our set-up. My WS made the big bucks and I did my bit and could bring in 7 or 8 hundred extra each week. It gave me a clear sense of worth on top of the SAHD role which I've done since 2005. But at least I have always sought to contribute $ as well. Not just stay at home.

It was a big blow in June 2012 to have to punt my driving job of 5 years to suit the fact that my WS had finally found another high paying job after a redundancy kept her out of the market for 6 months until march 2012. I took 6 weeks leave and then left. The kids came first.

What devastated me subsequently was that in that period where she got closer to starting her new much higher paid job and from the actual start date in March 2012 she was underway with her EA. The PA kicked off in June 2012.

I guess I still can't get passed the betrayal. I have to be honest people. I still silently and regularly give her the finger when she goes off to bed or says something blithe (IMO) about how she feels about us. It is childish but I'm still angry. I have fallen into that trap of her having to fix this, her having to make it happen. It won't. I get it now. But it still cuts me up. I can't describe in words how angry I still am about this.

I can see that the energy I'm expelling in this anger and the negative chemistry is bad - I get it. The exercise and work (soon I hope) will fight this insidious trap. It's just that I have to go through this more than I realised. I should have known - enough TAM threads deal with the longevity of this. It's so f**ked up in my head I just....keep repeating myself ad nauseum.

Think about it - I have to pull my finger out and work really hard to drag myself to the mountain top where she might or might not be attracted to me again. But no, it's about doing it for me and her response might be an added bonus. 

That's the thing as well, I realised I have never done anything for me - ever. I'm not used to it folks. I'm the giver, the occasionally pissed off giver. Nice guy syndrome - love me the lap dog. Turning this lifetime of behavior around is like turning around the Titanic - oh dear, awful analogy but you get my drift. No excuses - I get it.

It's just that my mentality asks the question - couldn't she do a little more. But wrong question. I have to learn to detach. See I was 180ing but it is hard to sustain. So the answer is to focus on myself and detachment will be a bi-product of that and, fingers crossed, it might ignite something.

I loved that comment someone made to me recently about the WS dressing up for the man she wants to undress her. As my WS spouse did on one memorable morning going off to work. I'll never forget how I mostly ignored the red flag around Oct last year that she was dressed up as if going out at night. 

It was 7.15am and she had on the fire engine red lippy as well. " I am meeting my buyer this morning" - later after DDay it became "well i did see my buyer!" You sure did and then lunch. That hurts people, that really hurts.

So when we got ready last night for our big night out last night I was less than amused that she was dressing as she normally does for work each day. Mostly black - high heels, slacks, black lightweight jacket. The only extravagance a new patterned shirt - very nice shirt. OK it was neat casual but....I dunno, she looked great but....

Look, she kept up the lines about re-connecting, and how I'm her "love" and touching me and holding my hand or being arm in arm but I was never going to get laid. Yes, let's get it out there - I need to get laid. It's getting to critical mass. Shaking hands with the un-employed is not cutting it.

For her it's - "I'm disturbed that this appears to be only about sex to you" (as she said to me a few weeks back). It's about re-building without sex people - do you get that? 

Or maybe it's about regular dates which we agree must happen, and then something magical will happen. OK wrong thinking - detach, work on yourself and maybe she will tune into my new found cache and be hot for me all over again; one day....in a land far far away.

Yes, I'm not over the betrayal by a long shot and I pretty f**ked up with my upbringing tied in as Remains suggests. Believe me I am trying - it is just that this whole shebang is so debilitating and still so new. 

No, i was just letting off steam about the FBuddy and professional help is not my thing. Something would be nice though - you'd think she could manage a hand job. I guess not. It's funny nothing has happened for more than 6 weeks - zero! and yet before that there was a period (2 or 3 times) where we got into the sack and had some fun. Then it just stopped dead in it's tracks. 

A few weeks later we both went off like firecrackers one night. That came after an argument - instant make up sex. Nothing since. I started to wonder if she had some medical condition - I don't know why that happened, just stopped - nothing, not a word in more than 6 weeks. And the arguments have virtually disappeared with my diligence to keeping the peace. What happened?

So you see how this virus of infidelity wreaks havoc? There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason and she will not take up the sword an explain other than the couple of times she said "I'm working on it". I actually asked her never to say those words again.

Well, I'll keep plugging away. Hmmmm, maybe she has become involved with a sect who practice celibacy? just a thought.


----------



## turnera

Did you ever even READ NMMNG?


----------



## warlock07

> I have fallen into that trap of her having to fix this, her having to make it happen. It won't.


----------



## Horizon

I should have said "had" - not any more.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Did you ever even READ NMMNG?


Yes T, I reading it thoroughly now. before I kind of rushed through it. But it really hits the mark now. Yes, that's me in there.

Very good insight for men and women about what is happening with their children and the health or lack of in their upbringing.


----------



## Horizon

My WS makes me sick to my core. I should not have again read some of the "his and hers" incriminating e-mails I accidentally on purpose stumbled across this evening but hey.... Just to read the intensity of the exchanges - all denied - makes my soul crumble. Brings to mind baseball bats and meat grinders....


----------



## turnera

You should hand them to her and ask her to read them out loud to you.


----------



## Horizon

You know what T, she doesn't have the eggs to look this calamity in the face. I believe in people and they turn out to be little more than shallow opportunists - the business world a special breeding ground for this kind of moral decay.

My WS thinks because I briefly got my rocks off on Sunday when the house was empty that I'm satisfied. The amount of effort she is putting in can an be engraved on the end of a needle point. And I had to put the acid on her for that.


----------



## turnera

Who cares if she has the eggs? Her reaction is not your problem. Merely SHOWING them to her so she knows you know, would be enough for me.


----------



## Rugs

I don't want to re-read this whole thread as I found it very confusing the first time but in short can someone tell me is this marriage in D or R or being rug-swept so I can follow it from here.

Horizon, are you on the fence right now?


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> You know what T, she doesn't have the eggs to look this calamity in the face. I believe in people and they turn out to be little more than shallow opportunists - the business world a special breeding ground for this kind of moral decay.


 stuck that like an olympic landing. There are those shallow opportunist, and then there are also people like you and others on TAM who want something a bit more meaningful, a person who will stay with you and be interested if times get bad and you don't have alot of money for example. But the world around us is being programmed to be increasingly shallow.




Horizon said:


> My WS thinks because I briefly got my rocks off on Sunday when the house was empty that I'm satisfied. The amount of effort she is putting in can an be engraved on the end of a needle point. And I had to put the acid on her for that.


LOL. Right, you got yours is how they look at it. From your postings with your WS, you are done there.

I don't know if you finally have divorced yet - but you should and if you have not, you should have the process under way.

Also I would not hide one bit spending time with some female collegues who enjoy your company.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Who cares if she has the eggs? Her reaction is not your problem. Merely SHOWING them to her so she knows you know, would be enough for me.


If his aim is to rebuild sexual (and presumably emotional) intimacy, then her reaction is very much his problem IMO.


----------



## turnera

What did I miss?


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> What did I miss?


Harranguing over past sins is not a top ten seduction technique?

Which is not an answer to Horizon's issue. It comes back to working on himself and restoring his sense of self worth as an individual IMO.


----------



## Horizon

T - she has known I've had these since a weeks after DDay. I had originally seen a number of texts as well (sexting) and I had heard some voice mails. WS dumped the texts after i revealed them to her in evidence (shocked amazement) and also finally dumped the voice mails after a number of weeks. Never seemed to have much urgency. Maybe a trophy?

She actually went into my files on our PC and dumped my copies of her e-mails. However I have them stored elsewhere as well. Yes, I was beating myself up a bit and reminding myself of the gravity of the "crime".

Obviously I'm no angel but the awful state of human relations on this globe gets my goat. My older brother went through a similar thing prior to me but he neither got nor sought the sordid details - he'd seen enough and put up with enough.

He can't stand my WS and refuses to come here if she is around. This is a man who we both helped out emotionally as he made his way through his relationship breakdown in 2011 / 2012. he's much better now and has met a really nice lady. Still sad that he has less time with his youngest son now.

The main reason he refuse to see my WS is not only has he seen what I have endured but pointed out that while we were offering him comfort and support under our roof she was doing the same thing to me. I can't blame him for saying "I don't want to talk to her". And he used to love her. My brother is not vindictive but he can't wear her at all right now.

Good news - off to the Gym this morning. Workout, swim, spa....me me me.


----------



## turnera

What I mean is, why are you caring how she takes this if she isn't even addressing what she did?


----------



## Horizon

Because I stupidly think she will change. Because I stupidly think that she will somehow magically instigate an iota of an approximation of a performance that demonstrates she has an atom of a spark for me sexually. She can't even find a moment to pretend. She can't even pretend, she can't even do a mercy whatever which she was managing at least a few months ago. The truth sits there bored out of it's brain waiting for one of us to openly acknowledge it's presence without dancing around it for years in the vain hope that someone will pop in with a time machine so we can escape back to better days.


----------



## turnera

Or...move forward to a wiser, more enlightened future where you initiate relations with a woman who actually CARES about you?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Or...move forward to a wiser, more enlightened future where you initiate relations with a woman who actually CARES about you?


Yep but not any time soon; and now she looks like pulling this bigger better job with the international trips each year....great, more money more BS, more you know what - what a blast!


----------



## Horizon

Had to laugh when I just read that she'll need Skype (for the first time) to talk to the international headhunter tomorrow as was recommended by the recruiter....seriously, it's just perfect. It feels like some malevolent force is writing a cruel script here - well f**k them!, I'm writing my own as well.


----------



## ceejay93

I'm confused! What are you trying to accomplish? Are you in R or D? 

You keep complaining about her lack of remorse but don't seem to have plans for a divorce. Is your goal to wallow in self pity or hope for a miracle? 

Regardless of your choice, best of luck!


----------



## turnera

WTH are you doing, Horizon?


----------



## Madman1

Rugs said:


> I don't want to re-read this whole thread as I found it very confusing the first time but in short can someone tell me is this marriage in D or R or being rug-swept so I can follow it from here.
> 
> Horizon, are you on the fence right now?





turnera said:


> Or...move forward to a wiser, more enlightened future where you initiate relations with a woman who actually CARES about you?





Horizon said:


> Yep but not any time soon; and now she looks like pulling this bigger better job with the international trips each year....great, more money more BS, more you know what - what a blast!





turnera said:


> WTH are you doing, Horizon?



He is totally and completely stuck. He is unemployed, his self worth is shattered, his health in decline. He has no place to go and he is not going anywhere.

He is not divorcing and not reconciling, his is just putting up with it at the price of his self worth.

Now can we please stop asking what is happening or pushing him to do something.

I suggest from now on we talk about the weather, self improvement and maybe some sports.

In fairness he is making a few false starts at working on himself, and who hasten stumbled at that a few times.

His options are slim.


----------



## bfree

Horizon,

What did you eat today/yesterday? Did you go to the gym? Did you go jogging?

See the way I see it there are a lot of things in your life that you have little or no control of. Whether someone hires you. Whether your wife decides to have sex with you....or someone else. Whether your marriage continues or you finally divorce (you should have control of this but have demonstated that you really don't.) But there is something you most definitely have complete control over. And that's what goes in your mouth (I'd add you can control what comes out of your mouth but I'm not sure that's the case.) You can decide if you eat healthy or not. You can decide if you are going to fuel your body with premium or [email protected] You also can make sure to find a little time to go to the gym and work out or go jogging. See those are things that you DO control. And at the end of the day you can look in the mirror and say that you did right by yourself for yourself. Or you can sit there like a lump bemoaning the fact that your life sucks and there is nothing you can do but accept it and be miserable. Now which sounds better to you?


----------



## Horizon

Funny but true....

WS with son at sport training tonight.

-------

WS: Waiting for the rain to clear, not likely.

ME: Agreed, r u feeling horny?

WS: What? random comment.

ME: Not at all, R U having trouble deciphering?

WS: Yep!

ME: OMG!

later at home after training was cancelled.....

ME: was that confusing somehow?

WS: What?

ME: What I texted

WS: What?

ME: My message

WS: What? What are you talking about?

ME: My message "are you feeling horny"?

WS: I don't know what you mean

ME: OK....are you mucking around?

WS: What! I don't know what you mean, what are you on about?

ME: Seriously?

WS: I've finished work, I'm at baseball, I....what is it? (goes upstairs)

ME: OK, no worries.

ME: (shortly after) Horny as in hot

WS: Huh?....oh,oh....I'm not in that space. I was at work all day and baseball....my head is not in that space at all....were you serious?

ME: Yes, totally.

WS: But why would I....why do you think....?

ME: I dunno, why not? Just wondering.

WS: Oh....OK....sorry....I've ruined it....have I ruined the mood?

ME: nah, no big deal.

SON: Dad, can I have your old phone?

ME: NO!....sure mate, after we sort the new phone out.

WS: have I ruined the mood?


----------



## turnera

So...you're telling yourself she didn't know what you meant?


----------



## Robsia

I read that as being why on earth would she be feeling horny when she is with her son at sports training.

And I agree with her. Why would she?


----------



## turnera

Yeah, I always wondered why guys thing girls enjoy that kind of thing.


----------



## bfree

I might say something like that to the Mrs but it would be in a playful banter. I wouldn't expect she was really horny at that moment nor would I expect her to strip off her clothes and start moaning. That said since she is into me and we have a healthy sex life she would probably respond in a likewise playful manner. That's the problem Horizon. You and your wife aren't in a good place in regards to your sex life. That's why she ignored your text.


----------



## Robsia

Also, these comments:

ME: Not at all, R U having trouble deciphering?

ME: was that confusing somehow?

...are annoying, sarcastic and PA.

Now I know you are having trouble in the bedroom department, but even in a perfectly normal marriage there is a time and a place to be horny, and at a sports event with your son is not it.

In fact, if she were, you'd probably have cause to worry, because it would mean there was some hunky coach or parent she was being horny over.


----------



## Racer

Next time, just change it slightly instead of it being focused on her. Just state; "I am f'n horny". She can choose to ignore that or comment...

You spent too much time focused on her and what she was feeling/thinking and less time expressing yourself and what you are thinking/feeling.


----------



## Acabado

Racer, hope you don't mind. I'm sure you can relate, somehow, to this story.
Horizon, click on Racer profile and read all you can about his story and read his posts. He also had to deal with a difficult situation and a difficult wayward. He managed to find a way, granted he had some adventages over you but still it was more about the self work he did than circunstances.


----------



## Horizon

That's the trouble with typed messages. But it was meant in a playful way and not meant to be sarc at all. So there was that level of miscom. Then it got so ridiculous at home - I was waiting for her to go "gotcha!" - but she never did so then I thought she really didn't understand the word "horny". Impossible but.

I love the way the ladies say they can't understand how guys would think or why would she be....

Come on, we're guys!!

I'm drowning here ladies. I'm trying something, anything to ignite a spark. It was meant to be playful while she sat in the car waiting for the rain to clear. Maybe next time I'll kick off with "R U programmed to receive"! (deliberate sarc)

Mind you - the VAR from earlier that day demonstrated plenty of oohs and aaahs from my WS when the young work colleague revealed more iphone pics of her new fbuddy. My WS even remonstrated with her young friend for not taking more revealing images - "I'll have some of that", "Nice arms" "is that all" etc.

Not to mention the cacophony of wows or come back here's! as she (presumably) drove past some hunky construction worker or other. But of course she was in her car on the way to work and unlike sitting in a car with her son, she was in a fog machine playing single chick - none of it real, expressions of arousal all fake.

Next time I'll be far more prudent & judicious (sarc in overdive)


----------



## Racer

Acabado said:


> Racer, hope you don't mind. I'm sure you can relate, somehow, to this story..


I don't mind at all. The basic gist of it Horizon is I dealt with a unremorseful, sexless, rugsweeping, TT'ing, lying, pos, wh0re for a wife. And I'm still married to her and the relationship is going along pretty well now.


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> I don't mind at all. The basic gist of it Horizon is I dealt with a unremorseful, sexless, rugsweeping, TT'ing, lying, pos, wh0re for a wife. And I'm still married to her and the relationship is going along pretty well now.


Thanks Racer - what is the quick way to read your threads I'm searching around like a chook without it's head.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Racer said:


> I don't mind at all. The basic gist of it Horizon is I dealt with a unremorseful, sexless, rugsweeping, TT'ing, lying, pos, wh0re for a wife. And I'm still married to her and the relationship is going along pretty well now.


Aren't lobotomys great? Just kidding.


----------



## Racer

Horizon said:


> Thanks Racer - what is the quick way to read your threads I'm searching around like a chook without it's head.


Easiest way is to click on my profile. From there hit the statistics. Then the "see all threads started by"... it's the My Story one. 

Also a good way to find other people's stories or why they are here.


----------



## Horizon

You might think that I couldn't be more disgusted after what I have endured since early April. Wrong. 

Tonight my POS WS has done it to me again - for the last time and I mean the last time. The penny has finally truly dropped. I have copped my final insult.

She has all day lead me to believe (after a false start last night due to the fact that she consumed more whisky than I can remember - almost two 3rds of a bottle) that we would be indulging in a little fun this evening.

Why did she go off the rails last night, maybe the international phone call first thing this morning from the VP of the USA company trying to head hunt her....the pressure, who knows? All I know is that it killed any chance of anything as it has done for years. 

So tonight was the loose arrangement which suited both of us. Wrong.

I took up her responsibility of taking our son down to the oval for the sport make-up due to rain from the other night. I offered, I was glad to - 3 nights this week I have taken up the job as I mostly do anyway. I did it tonight so she could chill, knowing she would have a couple but hoping she's "turn up". Wrong. I got home and a 3rd was already quaffed.

She still sent the signals as we went through the process of getting our children settled. No rush, all good - except she was "half stung".

Then the first signs of what I already knew in my heart. The exaggerated yawn, the animated slump into the lounge. Finally she took our son up to bed and we agreed I'd be up in five. My daughter settled in with her ipod, our son snuggled with his DS. 

I enter the boudoir. She is flopped on her side, the turned head, the sort of smiling sour expression. "Oh, do we have to. OK come on. I'm so tired"

I turned on my heels "Forget it, you're never doing this to me again" She offered a few lame muffled comments or protests which I didn't bother trying to understand as I walked down the hallway - in the past an argument might have ensued. Not anymore. 

She prefers the bottle to me.


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> Just to read the intensity of the exchanges - all denied - makes my soul crumble. Brings to mind baseball bats and meat grinders....





turnera said:


> You should hand them to her and ask her to read them out loud to you.


Make copies, hand them to WW, ask her to read them, then ask her to deny them.

You will never recover without the truth.


----------



## theroad

Wazza said:


> Harranguing over past sins is not a top ten seduction technique?
> 
> Which is not an answer to Horizon's issue. It comes back to working on himself and restoring his sense of self worth as an individual IMO.


He is not going about building romantic feelings.

He can not because he has not gotten the truth he needs from his WW.

He does not want to divorce his WW.

He can not go without the full truth about the affair.

So unable to chose from those two things he has chosen to live in limbo. Doing nothing and hoping to get laid by his WW.


----------



## bfree

Horizon, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your wife's drinking is the main issue here. But what you don't seem to want to accept is that her drinking is her problem and as long as you continue to make it your problem you are enabling her unacceptable behavior. You should be completely concentrating on yourself and detaching from her. You should be getting your life in order and making yourself into a better man. Everyone here, whether they are advising divorce, reconciliation or whatever are all saying the same thing. Physician heal thyself.


----------



## Wazza

theroad said:


> He is not going about building romantic feelings.
> 
> He can not because he has not gotten the truth he needs from his WW.
> 
> He does not want to divorce his WW.
> 
> He can not go without the full truth about the affair.
> 
> So unable to chose from those two things he has chosen to live in limbo. Doing nothing and hoping to get laid by his WW.


It isn't going to work. My point was pragmatic, not moral. You don't make women hot by nagging.

She is not going to play. He cannot work on her. He can only work on himself.


----------



## theroad

Wazza said:


> It isn't going to work. My point was pragmatic, not moral. You don't make women hot by nagging.
> 
> She is not going to play. He cannot work on her. He can only work on himself.


Your response to my post does not make sense.


----------



## Wazza

theroad said:


> Your response to my post does not make sense.


Does to me. 

Look, Horizon wants to get laid, so he complains when he doesn't. 

But what they need is things to make her more interested in him sexually. Nagging her isn't going to do it.

He needs to get her to feel romantic feelings. Nagging won't do that.

So how long does he keep jerking off and complaining? What can he do that he hasn't done already? He needs to break out of the mold, cos his wife won't.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Does to me.
> 
> Look, Horizon wants to get laid, so he complains when he doesn't.
> 
> But what they need is things to make her more interested in him sexually. Nagging her isn't going to do it.
> 
> He needs to get her to feel romantic feelings. Nagging won't do that.
> 
> So how long does he keep jerking off and complaining? What can he do that he hasn't done already? He needs to break out of the mold, cos his wife won't.


Exactly! Why should she have any incentive to change? Horizon has to work to make himself a better man. Then if his wife doesn't come back to him then he can find a woman who will.


----------



## treyvion

bfree said:


> Exactly! Why should she have any incentive to change? Horizon has to work to make himself a better man. Then if his wife doesn't come back to him then he can find a woman who will.


Who says he needs to be "better", he may be fine as he is, without being in a disrespectful relationship. Many of us where fine before these affairs got carried on. We weren't perfect, no one is.


----------



## tom67

bfree said:


> Exactly! Why should she have any incentive to change? Horizon has to work to make himself a better man. Then if his wife doesn't come back to him then he can find a woman who will.


Exactly when she gets home he should go out a few nights a week and not tell her where start acting confident be a man of mystery, show some independence ugh change it up.


----------



## life101

treyvion said:


> Who says he needs to be "better", he may be fine as he is, without being in a disrespectful relationship. Many of us where fine before these affairs got carried on. We weren't perfect, no one is.


This. 

Horizon may decide to get "better" (whatever that means), but it has to be for him, not to "seduce" his WW. Did his wife tell him that she was going to fvck others if he didn't get better? Was it included in the marriage vows? She married him, she knew him, she could see him, she knew what she was getting into. He kept his end of the bargain, she didn't.


----------



## Horizon

It is a fundamental error of mine. I have been working on myself - the fact that my body is wracked with soreness due to the gym workouts attests to that. But the mistake is thinking that we can somehow rebuild along the way has been wrong. This is non-Recon / Limbo Land.

I stupidly thought, while I improved myself, I would continue along and we'd, with her help, find something extra. You have to remember that there were the written statements by here, the verbal comments about wanting this and that - yes, the usual suck in. She can't do it.

I know how many times you have all pointed out the obvious particularly with your own experiences but it takes how ever long it takes. I was at a job interview yesterday only a few hours after her head hunter call. I felt that we were united in that sense - that it meant something. Know what I mean? There are all these false signals.

But reality is she is now bingeing a bit more - twice a week consuming a bit extra. I'm telling you it is sad to watch, it is really sad to observe. Yet her masculine side, her strong blokey side would blow off my protests or pleas. They stopped long ago, the only thing I say from time to time is something trite or neutral, it's rare now.

She sees me as this father figure bloke who is trying to control her. She's not interested in sex or overt intimate displays. To think she told this POSOM how much she loved kissing and touching him. I'm not in the ballpark.

Anyway this is old news. I guess I'm just amazed now that there is not one part of her mind that reflects on the obvious dismantling of the final embers that was whatever we once had eons ago. It doesn't seem to register - maybe being inebriated at night, work fixated during the day and somewhat familied out at night & weekends is the perfect cover.

She is going to get one hell of a surprise if she tries to hand me a mercy f**K this weekend. Not interested.

All that talk about "I'l do whatever it takes, I'll do ANYTHING" all meaningless.


----------



## Horizon

The only thing that will get her fired up is an affair. Probably perfect for her. New job, if it comes off (and it's looking good), new f/buddy on the trips OS. Just enough new and exciting, perfect.


----------



## Wazza

treyvion said:


> Who says he needs to be "better", he may be fine as he is, without being in a disrespectful relationship. Many of us where fine before these affairs got carried on. We weren't perfect, no one is.


I am not defending the wife here, her infidelity is wrong.

But right now, Horizon is impotent in the face of a situation he finds intolerable. Worse, he is trapped in behaviours that are making his situation worse. he has even admitted thar he kind of enjoys coming here and writing "oh woe is me" posts. Sorry, but that is a bit pathetic.

He needs to make changes for that reason alone. At the moment he is like someone trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.


----------



## Wazza

life101 said:


> This.
> 
> Horizon may decide to get "better" (whatever that means), but it has to be for him, not to "seduce" his WW. Did his wife tell him that she was going to fvck others if he didn't get better? Was it included in the marriage vows? She married him, she knew him, she could see him, she knew what she was getting into. He kept his end of the bargain, she didn't.


For him. Exactly.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> I am not defending the wife here, her infidelity is wrong.
> 
> But right now, Horizon is impotent in the face of a situation he finds intolerable. Worse, he is trapped in behaviours that are making his situation worse. he has even admitted thar he kind of enjoys coming here and writing "oh woe is me" posts. Sorry, but that is a bit pathetic.
> 
> He needs to make changes for that reason alone. At the moment he is like someone trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.


True, I said that but being on TAM is one of the few pleasures I have besides my children. So I was and do indulge from time to time in that respect - but what I say is the truth as I see it. There is an entertainment aspect in that the feedback stimulates me but I'm not just writing any old sh!t. Do you get what I mean or am I so f**ked up I can't see it? OK I'm f**ked up but....


----------



## Nucking Futs

So how did the interview go?


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> True, I said that but being on TAM is one of the few pleasures I have besides my children. So I was and do indulge from time to time in that respect - but what I say is the truth as I see it. There is an entertainment aspect in that the feedback stimulates me but I'm not just writing any old sh!t. Do you get what I mean or am I so f**ked up I can't see it? OK I'm f**ked up but....


I get what you mean, and I am ok with it, because I know you are just blowing off steam, and you are job hunting and working out..the two things you need to do.

You are doing ok. Keep going.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> So how did the interview go?


It went well IMO. i won't know until end of next week. It will mean working nights with a PUb that brews their own beers - really nice setup. Work will be primarily late in the week and weekends and will start anywhere from 6pm to 7pm until 2am or 3am. Transporting Pub / Club patrons home. Yes, dealing with the inebriated. I'll have to get an ABN number (business number) as it's contracted plus they want the recruit to do an RSA course (responsible Service of Alcohol - oh the f**king irony!!!!). So I will find out next week.

Even though the hours will be tough I just have to get something more fixed and relatively close to home. I can feel something is going to happen. I can feel it, whether it is this position or not. I can also feel that this is the true beginning of the end. If I pull this job or another and she is, as expected, offered the position she was headhunted for then that's it i reckon. 

I will be caught up, she will have more responsibility with the children in the evenings .....something will crack. I should be thinking this will all be positive for us but I think it will be otherwise. Guess I have just had too much. Maybe I'll be proved wrong but I feel as though my heart is not in it. I just can't imagine what a good outcome looks like - that's not good, I can't even visualise happy times with her. Sad.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> It is a fundamental error of mine. I have been working on myself - the fact that my body is wracked with soreness due to the gym workouts attests to that. But the mistake is thinking that we can somehow rebuild along the way has been wrong. This is non-Recon / Limbo Land.
> 
> I stupidly thought, while I improved myself, I would continue along and we'd, with her help, find something extra. You have to remember that there were the written statements by here, the verbal comments about wanting this and that - yes, the usual suck in. She can't do it.


You improve it for yourself, because you may as well. And many of us when we get cheated like this can get stuck into a spiral of negativity, so you have to do something. However you cannot go around carrying the phisod of anger and pain because that's not going to attract anything good for you.



Horizon said:


> I know how many times you have all pointed out the obvious particularly with your own experiences but it takes how ever long it takes. I was at a job interview yesterday only a few hours after her head hunter call. I felt that we were united in that sense - that it meant something. Know what I mean? There are all these false signals.


Kudos on the job interview. Keep it moving.



Horizon said:


> But reality is she is now bingeing a bit more - twice a week consuming a bit extra. I'm telling you it is sad to watch, it is really sad to observe. Yet her masculine side, her strong blokey side would blow off my protests or pleas. They stopped long ago, the only thing I say from time to time is something trite or neutral, it's rare now.


I know what you mean. I don't think we should contend with a masculine side, be with another female or gay man if that's going to be predominant. But to bash back my masculine side is not going to work one iota.




Horizon said:


> She sees me as this father figure bloke who is trying to control her. She's not interested in sex or overt intimate displays. To think she told this POSOM how much she loved kissing and touching him. I'm not in the ballpark.


Reality is a wonderful thing. You've been on this board for a minute though. I wouldn't try to be in the ballpark.



Horizon said:


> Anyway this is old news. I guess I'm just amazed now that there is not one part of her mind that reflects on the obvious dismantling of the final embers that was whatever we once had eons ago. It doesn't seem to register - maybe being inebriated at night, work fixated during the day and somewhat familied out at night & weekends is the perfect cover.
> 
> She is going to get one hell of a surprise if she tries to hand me a mercy f**K this weekend. Not interested.
> 
> All that talk about "I'l do whatever it takes, I'll do ANYTHING" all meaningless.


I wouldn't even worry about it, nor worry about a scrap she's going to hand you to fill her ego. She's looking down on you when you take it, and you cannot. Go find you a new honey.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> It went well IMO. i won't know until end of next week. It will mean working nights with a PUb that brews their own beers - really nice setup. Work will be primarily late in the week and weekends and will start anywhere from 6pm to 7pm until 2am or 3am. Transporting Pub / Club patrons home. Yes, dealing with the inebriated. I'll have to get an ABN number (business number) as it's contracted plus they want the recruit to do an RSA course (responsible Service of Alcohol - oh the f**king irony!!!!). So I will find out next week.
> 
> Even though the hours will be tough I just have to get something more fixed and relatively close to home. I can feel something is going to happen. I can feel it, whether it is this position or not. I can also feel that this is the true beginning of the end. If I pull this job or another and she is, as expected, offered the position she was headhunted for then that's it i reckon.
> 
> I will be caught up, she will have more responsibility with the children in the evenings .....something will crack. I should be thinking this will all be positive for us but I think it will be otherwise. Guess I have just had too much. Maybe I'll be proved wrong but I feel as though my heart is not in it. I just can't imagine what a good outcome looks like - that's not good, I can't even visualise happy times with her. Sad.


This is not that bad. It leaves you all day for more job hunting/interviews, and it has the added bonus of interfering with her social life. That's assuming she's mother enough to avoid drinking that heavily when she's the only adult home.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> This is not that bad.  It leaves you all day for more job hunting/interviews, and it has the added bonus of interfering with her social life. That's assuming she's mother enough to avoid drinking that heavily when she's the only adult home.


I once asked her what she would do if I suddenly had a fall or a heart attack or whatever and I needed to get to emergency (one of those arguments over drinking) - without batting an eyelid she told me "I'd call an Ambulance".


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



life101 said:


> This.
> 
> Horizon may decide to get "better" (whatever that means), but it has to be for him, not to "seduce" his WW. Did his wife tell him that she was going to fvck others if he didn't get better? Was it included in the marriage vows? She married him, she knew him, she could see him, she knew what she was getting into. He kept his end of the bargain, she didn't.


Correct which is why I said he needs to detach from her and start making himself a better man, not for her but for him. Horizon had said he's badly out of shape, lacks confidence, isn't working, etc. He needs to address those issues so that he can make the best choices for himself. Right now he feels he had no choices. It's time he starts creating opportunities. Then he can decide what's best for him moving forward.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Wazza said:


> I get what you mean, and I am ok with it, because I know you are just blowing off steam, and you are job hunting and working out..the two things you need to do.
> 
> You are doing ok. Keep going.


And stop concerning yourself with what she is doing. Sometimes the best way to communicate is not a yell but a whisper.


----------



## Longtime coming

In the same boat..this year alone I personally know of 9 couples who are going through the same ****..must be something in the water..


----------



## Horizon

Finally she has admitted she has issues with men. But....I am not to ask her about it, she doesn't want to "go there". She will get professional help when she sees fit and not with any coercion from me.

These are deep seated father issues IMO.

She has also admitted to being raped twice by her ex-con boyfriend when she was a teenager. Forcing her to do it when she didn't want to. Some ugly men have a counter argument to this - "they really wanted me to do it that way" etc. Anyway she doesn't want to talk about it or....have me try to "fix" her, dig around in her past.

I know well enough that these issues are what the drinking is partly about. She completely disagrees of course.

And because I took years to see my depression and addressed it in my own good time then she has every right to be in no hurry to fix her man issues. I tried to explain to her that in this BS Recon state it might help if she got to it with a modicum of urgency. No says she, when I'm good and ready says she.


----------



## Horizon

No man will tell her what to do.


----------



## treyvion

Longtime coming said:


> In the same boat..this year alone I personally know of 9 couples who are going through the same ****..must be something in the water..


With "sex in the city", "think like a man", etc.... It's in the culture today. Theres a mysticism behind this BS and this is going to be the way it's going to be. 

The key is to find someon with your mindset, that can see the BS for what it is.


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> With "sex in the city", "think like a man", etc.... It's in the culture today. Theres a mysticism behind this BS and this is going to be the way it's going to be.
> 
> The key is to find someon with your mindset, that can see the BS for what it is.


Spot on. there is the this massive brainwashing where a vast portion of the population are listening to too much FM radio and the hip, no responsibilites BS combined with the even worse visual BS on TV. The adoration of the fake. Add to that a cougar aged attractive woman with a secret fix on the Channing Tatum's & Joe Mangienello types and well the brainwash, desperation to be valid, is complete. Like shooting fish in a tank.

Gee, there are so many younger blokes champing at the bit to give it to an older woman and there are so many older women champing at the bit to hand it out. In the meantime us older men, unless we are buff, have died the hair and bought the new gear (and learned to respect ourselves) are invisible. I see so many blokes out my way, same age, grey - look like they have just about given up. That was me almost, not any more.

That is the big dichotomy with my WS, she has a man's brain inside a woman's body. She very much IMO had to become the success the only son couldn't be. Trying to please her father dominated her life. Now that the nasty patriarch is gone (much as I liked him) all of this stuff is starting to leak out - the new found freedom his death has afforded is really screwing with her head. Something else to drown with grog. Why does she feel so unworthy when she is so good at what she does? - not so crash hot with relationships, but we share that in common. Damage in both camps.


----------



## Horizon

VAR never lies - she is too tired for sex or fighting demons or still working through it etc but it all amounts to virtually zero sex. On the other hand VAR says that WS wants an e-mail pic from her work colleague of some stud. Comments like - "F**K the head, just show us the body....". Oh yeah!; as she has stated 3 times since DDay - "I couldn't care if I never had sex again". Sure!


----------



## Horizon

lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies...........


----------



## turnera

Why are you still doing this?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



turnera said:


> Why are you still doing this?


Great question.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> VAR never lies - she is too tired for sex or fighting demons or still working through it etc but it all amounts to virtually zero sex. On the other hand VAR says that WS wants an e-mail pic from her work colleague of some stud. Comments like - "F**K the head, just show us the body....". Oh yeah!; as she has stated 3 times since DDay - "I couldn't care if I never had sex again". Sure!


That part of her mind is open for others. I would get back into the single game, because she has.


----------



## Wazza

I guess the other possibility is that she is talking crap with her work colleague. Dunno.

Either way, your course remains to be strong and work on you. Job and gym.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> I guess the other possibility is that she is talking crap with her work colleague. Dunno.
> 
> Either way, your course remains to be strong and work on you. Job and gym.


I think this is closer to the mark. The much younger work colleague has helped light a spark since she has been riding with my WS. Funny how all the pieces fit together. But there is no grand plan it all just rolls out - decaying relationship, FB, younger work colleagues, Fifty shades of BS fantasy, POSOM's reeling in their catch....bit by bit the entitlement comes to the surface.

Body is burning right now - pushing it a little harder each time. Cardio is the toughest bit.

Why am I doing this? - this is what I have to do until January 2014 (or sooner, but I don't want to f**k up our family OS trip as we have paid quite a bit in advance)


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> That part of her mind is open for others. I would get back into the single game, because she has.


It could be crap as Wazza says but unfortunately she's got runs on the board so I really can't argue with your POV. That doubt, daily doubt, is a bastard of a thing. Is in fact that part of her mind truly open to others and therefore it is just a matter of time? You'd have to think it's more likely than not she'll act on the same temptation. 

Great way to live - for now.

One last thing - i think it is hilarious that I have pressed the accelerator to get in shape and get a better, higher paid job and she just sits back and does f**k all


----------



## Horizon

I'm enjoying working out and getting a bit of the mojo back but it feels like the boat has well & truly sailed. There is a stench in the air.


----------



## the guy

Hey, get a new air freshener!
.


----------



## the guy

Horizon said:


> and she just sits back and does f**k all


And why is this important to you?


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> It could be crap as Wazza says but unfortunately she's got runs on the board so I really can't argue with your POV. That doubt, daily doubt, is a bastard of a thing. Is in fact that part of her mind truly open to others and therefore it is just a matter of time? You'd have to think it's more likely than not she'll act on the same temptation.
> 
> Great way to live - for now.
> 
> One last thing - i think it is hilarious that I have pressed the accelerator to get in shape and get a better, higher paid job and she just sits back and does f**k all


Do it for yourself. Yes she is gathering many of the viewpoints of people she finds so much more interesting to listen to than you, they all know better, lol.

Get in shape, your dress, your money all right for you. Maybe someone else will be worthy of your time, just remember there are a lot of free riders and users out there.

There are also generous and loving women, who don't want to use a man.

Probably the best thing you can do to help your situation is get a new babe. They always get jealous and come back to claim you, but once they know they have you they go back to their antics.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon, I get how much it hurts, and there are no guarantees for the future. But if you do reconcile it happens in small steps, not a big bang.

Work on yourself, and stop worrying about things you cannot change anyway.


----------



## Horizon

the guy said:


> And why is this important to you?



An increasingly diminishing part of me stupidly held on to the idea that my WS would be part of the Recon, that she would finally come on board. Wrong again.

I held onto the belief that Recon was and is possible but 2 people have to do it. If one is not contributing, despite their logical reasoning, it is not Recon - hence false Recon.

I have to admit that this experience has shown me how pathetic I had become - almost totally dependent without even being conscious of it. Occasionally you have seen me regress to this state but I'm already in a much better place than I was.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> An increasingly diminishing part of me stupidly held on to the idea that my WS would be part of the Recon, that she would finally come on board. Wrong again.
> 
> I held onto the belief that Recon was and is possible but 2 people have to do it. If one is not contributing, despite their logical reasoning, it is not Recon - hence false Recon.
> 
> I have to admit that this experience has shown me how pathetic I had become - almost totally dependent without even being conscious of it. Occasionally you have seen me regress to this state but I'm already in a much better place than I was.


At least you realized it was diminishing you. Get her outta your headspace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Tonight I feel pretty much more humiliated than any other time since DDay.

The local Police have just been to my door and served me with the Apprehended Violence Order that they tried to serve me in early June. Back then they left a business card. I called the cop shop that same day but heard nothing from them. (and assumed the matter had been dropped)

I have discovered tonight that the cops never received my message and they reckon they'd been here a couple of more times to find me.

In any case they were a couple of nice youngish blokes, very reasonable who, if anything, had the demeanor that they were all to familiar with this type of situation.

They pointed out that I had missed the court appearance date as per the order, but agreed that it was a no fault type situation and I should call the court to find out what ruling was made on that day.

So I will do that first thing tomorrow after I get my children to school. Why so much detail?

I think it is helping me to deal with the waves of humiliation that a now coursing through my body. To think that my children went straight to the door (it's exciting when there is a knock at the door), to think that I had to lie to their faces to explain why I was out front chatting to 2 strange men (in plain clothes fortunately) for 10 minutes.

To think my partner asked "Is everything alright?" about 30 minutes later. Conscious of the children no doubt. Anyway, that's it right now. 

I'm so angry and wracked with contempt for those two pieces of excrement who put me in this situation. I have visceral hatred for these lowlifes. Enough said.


----------



## Horizon

PS: you'd just love the way the statement has been spun to characterise me. I hope I'll have my say in court - yeah me, the bad guy.


----------



## Wazza

What was the reason for the Apprehended Violence Order?


----------



## Horizon

fear of being stalked and maliciously hurt....


----------



## Wazza

The OM took it out? Your wife? (But you live with her...)

Who? And why two people? Did you do anything to justify it?


----------



## Horizon

He went to his Local Court and took it out on behalf of himself and his wife. They are listed as protected persons 1 & 2. 

The Magistrate will decide if the order is justified. It could go either way - he may suggest mediation. However I have some compelling counter evidence to the exaggerations and outright lies in his statement. I hope I get my say.

I'm advised to have a Lawyer with me but I feel like I just want to stand up there and defend myself. I made no physical threats.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Horizon said:


> He went to his Local Court and took it out on behalf of himself and his wife. They are listed as protected persons 1 & 2.
> 
> The Magistrate will decide if the order is justified. It could go either way - he may suggest mediation. However I have some compelling counter evidence to the exaggerations and outright lies in his statement. I hope I get my say.
> 
> I'm advised to have a Lawyer with me but I feel like I just want to stand up there and defend myself. I made no physical threats.


not getting a lawyer is a huge mistake.


----------



## toonaive

Do not go to court without a lawyer to represent you!!! Yea, that would be a monumental mistake.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> An increasingly diminishing part of me stupidly held on to the idea that my WS would be part of the Recon, that she would finally come on board. Wrong again.


And you're thinking you can actually go on a TRIP with this woman? WTH?

Why don't you just sell the trip to someone else, and leave to go live a new life?


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I'm advised to have a Lawyer with me but I feel like I just want to stand up there and defend myself.


 Then you're a fool and you'll end up in jail AND paying your wife's OM thousands of dollars.:scratchhead:


----------



## Racer

Horizon, I suspect you are an idealist. By that I mean, you expect the world to operate “in a fair and reasonable way”. It doesn’t. That’s what finally broke me. 

Give up the notion that another person’s perception of “reasonable” matches you own. You do not know the magistrate or how that person views this sort of stuff. You really only know how you view it. It may not be enough. Try to use less empathy in your life.

Put it this way: Is your wife operating at all on the same set of rules that you would consider “fair and reasonable”? Probably not... You’ll find a lot of people don’t. Stop having that expectation in them that they will understand and work like you do. 

Get a Lawyer.


----------



## Decorum

turnera said:


> And you're thinking you can actually go on a TRIP with this woman? WTH?
> 
> Why don't you just sell the trip to someone else, and leave to go live a new life?




Yep sell the trip and tell your wife that you are going to use the money to pay for a lawyer to defend yourself.

And just leave it at that.


----------



## Wazza

Does his wife know about the affair? I am not always pro exposure, but in this case I would consider making sure she knows about he court order, and why it was done....particularly if you have evidence.

And I think you should turn up without a lawyer, and rely on the reasonableness, integrity and basic decency of the legal system. NOT!!!!!!!

And if go gage a lawyer, as I think you should, and decide to expose, check that it doesn't violate the court order.


----------



## Horizon

It is not an actual order yet. He is seeking certain outcomes such as no contact, no use of his private material etc. It is a statement of what he believes has happened so far, what he perceives as my intentions and what he would like the court to enforce. The magistrate must decide to grant or not to grant after he listens to both sides.

The POSOM's wife clearly knows. She is portrayed as someone in fear, as he portrays himself, and my contact with her is outlined in the AVO statement. He also states up front that he revealed all to his wife about the A and when it ended. 

However I have evidence showing otherwise - should I go for my own type of AVO? I was hoping to dispute the obvious inaccuracies in his statement.

This is all I will say about it at this stage, seeing this is a public forum.

....I would have thought my WS would be champing at the bit to support me. Not last night nor this morning. Mainly silence. This is the same person who months ago during a blow up accused me of stalking the POSOM & his wife based on the text he sent me and copied her on. She doesn't have my back. 

There I go again, expecting the world to be fair - here was another opportunity for her to express solidarity, do something, anything. Climb out of her pathetic mind-set and reach out to me and say "I caused this, I'm sorry, I'll do whatever needs to be done to help you with this, appear in court if need be, write a statement, whatever...." Pipe dream.


----------



## Racer

The trip thing I do get. I did that.

For me, after the false R was discovered, we had already prepaid a big family cruise. I was done with the marriage. However, my mindset was; “I want the kids to have one last really good family memory before we split it all up.” I focused completely on making this a real good trip for my family (of which she is a part). 

It is an entirely different attitude. I didn’t see this as an opportunity to get us back together and sweep her off her feet. This was not a romantic family getaway. This was my last chance to give the kids, and myself, a very good final memory of this family to cherish before I turned their world inside out and left their mom. Something untainted by her affairs. I knew the next year, as the divorce proceeded would be tough on them and me. I just wanted something special to remember and thought the kids would want that too. Basically, this was it. The last time we would be together as a family.

We had one fight about it. She was going to bail on the trip because I had told her we were done and when we got back I was filing. She said, “What’s the point on going then?” I played the Mom card; “The kids; Do you really want their last family memory to be you staying home and hooking up with the OM for comfort? Just come and help make this a good memory for them. Put your own petty grievances aside for a week and come with us. They will need it later. All we’ve done for the last 8 months is bicker and fight. Do you want them to remember that is what it was like? This is the last trip we will ever take as a family. Suck it up and give them something fond to remember about us.”

And that’s exactly what I did. No fighting, no talks, etc. Zero attempt to mend or change the direction of this relationship with my WW. I did fun stuff, happy stuff and didn’t care if she was there or not. I enjoyed myself and my family and found a temporary escape from ‘it’.


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> The trip thing I do get. I did that.
> 
> For me, after the false R was discovered, we had already prepaid a big family cruise. I was done with the marriage. However, my mindset was; “I want the kids to have one last really good family memory before we split it all up.” I focused completely on making this a real good trip for my family (of which she is a part).
> 
> It is an entirely different attitude. I didn’t see this as an opportunity to get us back together and sweep her off her feet. This was not a romantic family getaway. This was my last chance to give the kids, and myself, a very good final memory of this family to cherish before I turned their world inside out and left their mom. Something untainted by her affairs. I knew the next year, as the divorce proceeded would be tough on them and me. I just wanted something special to remember and thought the kids would want that too. Basically, this was it. The last time we would be together as a family.
> 
> We had one fight about it. She was going to bail on the trip because I had told her we were done and when we got back I was filing. She said, “What’s the point on going then?” I played the Mom card; “The kids; Do you really want their last family memory to be you staying home and hooking up with the OM for comfort? Just come and help make this a good memory for them. Put your own petty grievances aside for a week and come with us. They will need it later. All we’ve done for the last 8 months is bicker and fight. Do you want them to remember that is what it was like? This is the last trip we will ever take as a family. Suck it up and give them something fond to remember about us.”
> 
> And that’s exactly what I did. No fighting, no talks, etc. Zero attempt to mend or change the direction of this relationship with my WW. I did fun stuff, happy stuff and didn’t care if she was there or not. I enjoyed myself and my family and found a temporary escape from ‘it’.


Just how I feel. I want it for myself and the children. We don't even have to bunk in together. Plus there are other family members going along. 

Naturally I'd rather spend any money on my children rather than a Lawyer. Excuse my naivety - this will be just a hearing before a Magistrate. Is the danger that his Lawyer will tear me to shreds or that I might make a blunder in speaking or that the court will feel insulted etc.?


----------



## Wazza

The danger is you will make a mistake and incur an unfair judgement because you don't know the rules.


----------



## Racer

Horizon said:


> Just how I feel. I want it for myself and the children. We don't even have to bunk in together. Plus there are other family members going along.


That's so similar. That cruise was 'the big family'; my side. My parents and my sister's and their family. And because I have a family of five, we did have two rooms. So, I didn't have to sleep with her at all (and didn't). Boy's room and girl's room with adjoining deck.

The lawyer thing. Basically, just assume people in power are still people too. What you need to understand is nobody comes to them with a happy story and 'everything is great'... everything is a complaint. Everyone has a justification, excuse and a sob story. They already sort of expect to hear two completely different stories and they will have to decide whom to trust more. Usually the one with the most evidence and hard documented facts is more believable. And they don't really care; They do not have any emotional investment in this problem. You are just one more he has to listen to for the day. He probably has a whole list to go through... and that has been his life for a long time now.

And this is a restraining order right? Shouldn't really matter to much unless you really, really need to talk to these people.


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> That's so similar. That cruise was 'the big family'; my side. My parents and my sister's and their family. And because I have a family of five, we did have two rooms. So, I didn't have to sleep with her at all (and didn't). Boy's room and girl's room with adjoining deck.
> 
> The lawyer thing. Basically, just assume people in power are still people too. What you need to understand is nobody comes to them with a happy story and 'everything is great'... everything is a complaint. Everyone has a justification, excuse and a sob story. They already sort of expect to hear two completely different stories and they will have to decide whom to trust more. Usually the one with the most evidence and hard documented facts is more believable. And they don't really care; They do not have any emotional investment in this problem. You are just one more he has to listen to for the day. He probably has a whole list to go through... and that has been his life for a long time now.
> 
> And this is a restraining order right? Shouldn't really matter to much unless you really, really need to talk to these people.


Yep, that's effectively it. Lucky the cops came last night - I have to be in court next Monday! I'll have to explain to the Magistrate why I missed the first date.

Anyone seen my WS? She's gone to ground, no support, no empathy, nothing. Not even interested in reading the "Application for an AVO" doc. Her name is mentioned numerous times and....silence. Defence mechanism?


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## turnera

No. Lack of interest in you.


----------



## Blacksmith01

awake1 said:


> No more mr nice guy - please read it.
> 
> 
> And stop using logic. That isn't a computer youre talking to, it's an emotional trainwreck without common sense.


I Love that line. I learned that the hard way.


----------



## LostViking

turnera said:


> No. Lack of interest in you.


Talking to a wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

Horizon, are you working yet?


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## Horizon

Still driving - I have been told I'm on the shortlist for the full-time gig at the Pub. However the GM is away and he decides. Should know by end of next week - fingers crossed. Did a 10 hour driving shift yesterday which was good - just not enough of it.

Update on the AVO....

I'm off to court tomorrow. Over here the initial appearance is referred to as a "mention". I'm quietly confident the Magistrate ("Your Worship" as per our English Law traditions) will dismiss the application based on my hard evidence.

Not unexpectedly my WS refuses to support me on any level with regard to this matter. Doesn't want to know about it.


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## Wazza

Have you asked her why?


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## Nucking Futs

Wazza said:


> Have you asked her why?


Turnera nailed it with this.



turnera said:


> No. Lack of interest in you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> *Still driving - I have been told I'm on the shortlist for the full-time gig at the Pub. However the GM is away and he decides. Should know by end of next week - fingers crossed. Did a 10 hour driving shift yesterday which was good - just not enough of it.*
> 
> Update on the AVO....
> 
> I'm off to court tomorrow. Over here the initial appearance is referred to as a "mention". I'm quietly confident the Magistrate ("Your Worship" as per our English Law traditions) will dismiss the application based on my hard evidence.
> 
> Not unexpectedly my WS refuses to support me on any level with regard to this matter. Doesn't want to know about it.


As far as work goes, anything is better than nothing. Now that you have something you can start working to better yourself monkey style. 

You've taken the first step towards recovery. Just stop worrying about why your SO doesn't support you, that relationship is dead. You and your SO are like two viruses, floating around inside a corpse, not realizing that the host organism is dead and your situation is hopeless.

Don't be offended by my metaphors. I don't mean them to come out that way, and I'd rather not examine what part of my psyche they come from. I'm pretty sure there's snakes and spiders in there.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Have you asked her why?


Yeah, it's ugly. No big blow up as it was dealt with via e-mails. I just expressed my dismay that she was not interested on any level and that IMO a sign of Recon would have been some empathy, offer of support etc. After all the snake and his wife are playing victim - both listed on the AVO doc as "The protected" - can you believe that? (of course you can)

So, considering that her actions lead to this whole thing being possible her feedback in a nutshell was....Nothing to do with me, what did you hope to achieve?, YOU DID THIS NOT ME!, two men carrying on like children and abusing the already clogged law system, you are blaming me yet again, I've had enough of this walking on eggshells, forget it and move fwd or go - your call.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Yeah, it's ugly. No big blow up as it was dealt with via e-mails. I just expressed my dismay that she was not interested on any level and that IMO a sign of Recon would have been some empathy, offer of support etc. After all the snake and his wife are playing victim - both listed on the AVO doc as "The protected" - can you believe that? (of course you can)
> 
> So, considering that her actions lead to this whole thing being possible her feedback in a nutshell was....Nothing to do with me, what did you hope to achieve?, YOU DID THIS NOT ME!, two men carrying on like children and abusing the already clogged law system, you are blaming me yet again, I*'ve had enough of this walking on eggshells,* forget it and move fwd or go - your call.


So what's she like when she's not walking on egg shells?

She clearly doesn't care whether you stay with her or leave her. If you leave her she has no babysitter but can play all she wants. If you stay she has the babysitter but has to put up with you and your needs. Not that she's going to fulfill them.

You need to go full bore into the 180, 100% committed to it. She may or may not notice but it's not for her and not for your relationship, it's for your benefit alone.


----------



## condave

Nothing to do with me, what did you hope to achieve?, YOU DID THIS NOT ME!, two men carrying on like children and abusing the already clogged law system, you are blaming me yet again, I've had enough of this walking on eggshells, forget it and move fwd or go - your call.[/QUOTE]

Wow! This woman is the devil :bsflag:


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## Horizon

AVO Application dismissed by Magistrate on my request. Coward POSOM didn't even show up to court.


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## Wazza

Horizon said:


> AVO Application dismissed by Magistrate on my request. Coward POSOM didn't even show up to court.


Now legally you are allowed to go around and beat the stuffing out of him!!!!!! What are you waiting for?

Just kidding...


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## WyshIknew

Horizon said:


> AVO Application dismissed by Magistrate on my request. Coward POSOM didn't even show up to court.


Did you get your 'say' or was it just a rubber stamp job?


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Now legally you are allowed to go around and beat the stuffing out of him!!!!!! What are you waiting for?
> 
> Just kidding...


Don't tempt me


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## Horizon

WyshIknew said:


> Did you get your 'say' or was it just a rubber stamp job?


Rubber stamp job, magistrate was glad to sign off on it. She allowed him an extra hour to front (held up in traffic etc) and then another half an hour later I was out of there. The court officer went outside about 5 times to call his name - nothing, no Lawyer, nothing. 

The magistrate reminded me that he could re-apply for the AVO despite the fact that she was dismissing it.

The strange thing is that she told me he diligently appeared there 3 times before today! 

I don't get it, once yeah when the Cops didn't serve me but two more times? I didn't bother asking but I am left wondering if this was his plan anyway. Gutless either way - I was rip roaring ready for a hearing so I could have my say. Anyway all good - bloke's a low life.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> Yeah, it's ugly. No big blow up as it was dealt with via e-mails. I just expressed my dismay that she was not interested on any level and that IMO a sign of Recon would have been some empathy, offer of support etc. After all the snake and his wife are playing victim - both listed on the AVO doc as "The protected" - can you believe that? (of course you can)
> 
> So, considering that her actions lead to this whole thing being possible her feedback in a nutshell was....Nothing to do with me, what did you hope to achieve?, YOU DID THIS NOT ME!, two men carrying on like children and abusing the already clogged law system, you are blaming me yet again, I've had enough of this walking on eggshells, forget it and move fwd or go - your call.


So much disregard and disrespect,
Your wife is a mirror when you hold her up you are seeing yourself.
l know you are working on it, but never get to the place where you lose yourself and allow someone to treat you this way again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## "joe"

horizon thanks for your accounts, your full posts make it possible for others to look at their own lives. i see that alot has happened since you posted this but i want to comment.

this matches my situation to a good degree:



Horizon said:


> Infidelity cannot be justified. But I can empathise with Clair's POV. The fact is, as I have admitted here, I was not the most pleasant man to be with. I had neglected my health, I had become sarcastic, I made snide comments and I did not have much consideration for my partner.
> 
> I was in a world of pain - depression, self hatred. However I did not neglect my family, my children, but I did neglect my partner. On the flip side she also neglected me. It became a chicken / egg argument but the fact is we turned from each other. In this respect the ground was prepared for the possibility of an affair.


in my case it wasn't an affair, she "solved" our marital issues - and we had them - by wholesale deceit and departure. the deceit has me shattered. my TBX also had drinking and spending problems, and the fact that i was prudent will cost me viciously when all is settled.

but i am in full agreement that infidelity is never justified. i had asked mine to keep communicating, but she chose not to. i hope to come to some level of understanding that will allow me to trust again, though from the evidence around here it's not easy.


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## Shaggy

Horizon


She doesn't want or love you, that's obvious.

The vars are showing that she has sexual feelings, but not ever for you.

Advice 

1. She earns much more than you. It would be best for you to divorce her and go for full custody and spousal support from her now when you aren't working full time.

2. Find every bottle in the house and dump it down then drain, or put a nice large pinch of salt into them to make them undrinkable. , repeat daily.

3. Realize this is who she is choosing to be - selfish, rejecting of you, putting everyone else ahead of you.


4. Stop expecting to ever have sex with her again. She has no passion or drive for you. None. Her actions show this, her words on the var show this.

She may have stopped giving sex to the OM, but she hasn't stopped cheating on you, She is no longer being your partner and its by her choice. You are the roommate who cares for her kids.

Sorry sir, but you are so much more deserving of love and a real relationship than what you are accepting from her.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Shaggy said:


> Horizon
> 
> 
> She doesn't want or love you, that's obvious.
> 
> The vars are showing that she has sexual feelings, but not ever for you.
> 
> Advice
> 
> 1. She earns much more than you. It would be best for you to divorce her and go for full custody and spousal support from her now when you aren't working full time.
> 
> 2. Find every bottle in the house and dump it down then drain, or put a nice large pinch of salt into them to make them undrinkable. , repeat daily.
> 
> 3. Realize this is who she is choosing to be - selfish, rejecting of you, putting everyone else ahead of you.
> 
> 
> 4. Stop expecting to ever have sex with her again. She has no passion or drive for you. None. Her actions show this, her words on the var show this.
> 
> She may have stopped giving sex to the OM, but she hasn't stopped cheating on you, She is no longer being your partner and its by her choice. You are the roommate who cares for her kids.
> 
> Sorry sir, but you are so much more deserving of love and a real relationship than what you are accepting from her.


The problem with this advice is that they're not married and they're in Australia. So hurray! No divorce necessary. Just work up the money to leave. But Boo! No spousal support on the Horizon. <-- Sorry, couldn't resist. 

I don't know if Australia has any kind of palimony set up or not, too busy right now to search for it.


----------



## OldWolf57

take her camping,, hear their are some really hungry crocs over there


----------



## OldWolf57

yeah, most knw me here, so wht did you expect from me


----------



## Shaggy

Nucking Futs said:


> The problem with this advice is that they're not married and they're in Australia. So hurray! No divorce necessary. Just work up the money to leave. But Boo! No spousal support on the Horizon. <-- Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of palimony set up or not, too busy right now to search for it.


Does OZ have common law marriages? In some parts of the world they would be married due to the time they've been together in the same home.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Shaggy said:


> Does OZ have common law marriages? In some parts of the world they would be married due to the time they've been together in the same home.


This is a link I posted on this thread on June 17th.


----------



## Horizon

Shaggy said:


> Does OZ have common law marriages? In some parts of the world they would be married due to the time they've been together in the same home.


Yes, de-facto responsibilities are the same (legally binding) as marriage here in Oz.


----------



## Horizon

The funny (annoying) thing about my WS is that she makes all the right noises - "I love you, "we are working this out" etc

But....cannot do deep remorse; all the stuff I believe she has to do to earn my trust again to rebuild. 

When I told her that she had to do a hell of a lot more than she was doing there was a pause - I asked her if she understood what I meant. She said "No". I hung up.

This was in the wake of the failed AVO and in the wake of her complete lack of empathy / acknowledgement of her involvement in the situation on any level.

She then contacted me and said "I love you and we are going to work this out". Ok the actions aren't there as I would like obviously but I'm convinced this is less about cunning and more about someone who just cannot do guilt / remorse that truly remorseful WS's can do - as demonstrated on TAM.

She is effectively saying that this is all she has got but that she is committed to Recon.

Then I discovered in the wash to be hung out two new pairs of black micro fibre undies with the lace tops. Trust me they are hot!!!!. And we had a bit of a joke over the phone about that and shortly after my mind went into overdrive. You understand why.


----------



## LostViking

Believe what she does and not what she says. I love you's are meaningless without actions to back them up...sex being one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

Horizon said:


> Then I discovered in the wash to be hung out two new pairs of black micro fibre undies with the lace tops. Trust me they are hot!!!!. And we had a bit of a joke over the phone about that and shortly after my mind went into overdrive. You understand why.


Who is she wearing them for?


----------



## turnera

Did you tell her you expect to be taking them off of her in bed tonight?


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Did you tell her you expect to be taking them off of her in bed tonight?


Why not ask? What have you got to lose?

She says she wants to try..ask her to wear them for you tonight. Without barbs, facial expressions, etc. create a wholly positive opening and see what she does.


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> Believe what she does and not what she says. I love you's are meaningless without actions to back them up...sex being one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So true - not a good track record.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Why not ask? What have you got to lose?
> 
> She says she wants to try..ask her to wear them for you tonight. Without barbs, facial expressions, etc. create a wholly positive opening and see what she does.


I have, believe me I have, both over the phone yesterday and face to face last night. There is never any commitment, just comments like "maybe" and "we'll see" and "settle down". This weekend she'll be given an opp to put them to good use - nothing happens during the week, never has (except if you are a POSOM, then you just name the day and time and which car park )

To be fair to my WS I forget to mention earlier that she did say that she felt our Recon should be seen in other things that we do, not just sex. Such as last weekend when we went out in the morning to buy a stick of furniture and we had a coffee and did a quiz in a mag and late did some gardening together. I get that.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> I have, believe me I have, both over the phone yesterday and face to face last night. There is never any commitment, just comments like "maybe" and "we'll see" and "settle down". This weekend she'll be given an opp to put them to good use - nothing happens during the week, never has (except if you are a POSOM, then you just name the day and time and which car park )
> 
> To be fair to my WS I forget to mention earlier that she did say that she felt our Recon should be seen in other things that we do, not just sex. Such as last weekend when we went out in the morning to buy a stick of furniture and we had a coffee and did a quiz in a mag and late did some gardening together. I get that.


I would agree that sex is only a part of R, but it _is_ a part. Right now you're not her sex partner, you're her room mate, and you're in false R. If you get laid at all this weekend it'll be duty sex, and you'll know she's not in to it.


----------



## LostViking

Watching Horizon beg for scraps has actually started to be kind of fascinating in a sadistic kind of way: like watching a female praying mantis tear the head off her mate and eat it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

LostViking said:


> Watching Horizon beg for scraps has actually started to be kind of fascinating in a sadistic kind of way: like watching a female praying mantis tear the head off her mate and eat it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It has to not be begging. It is creating the opportunity. If she does to wish to share it, don't beg.


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> Watching Horizon beg for scraps has actually started to be kind of fascinating in a sadistic kind of way: like watching a female praying mantis tear the head off her mate and eat it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the last time ( 2 weeks back ) she had a raging orgasm! Seriously, not faked. Maybe you are going to be cruel and say that this only proves that any AP could give her that as well.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> I would agree that sex is only a part of R, but it _is_ a part. Right now you're not her sex partner, you're her room mate, and you're in false R. If you get laid at all this weekend it'll be duty sex, and you'll know she's not in to it.


The sex is great when she's into it but she is not into it much. I don't beg people, but I concede that my frustration is at times palpable.

OK, what are you alluding to? Knock it back altogether? I can't force her to want it every day. Long before any affair she was never like this anyway - LD? Seriously, the A sparked her up but she's never been hanging out for sex - ever; and it is not that she is not into me. When I was younger and hotter her frequency was low. 

But now the cougar years are upon her and I'm no longer hot.....


----------



## LostViking

I'm not trying to be cruel. I'm kicking you in your bloody arse. Quit cow-towing to that woman. Seriously, is her V THAT good that you need to preschedule sex two weeks in advance with her?. For god's sakes!

I think you and MattMatt exist just to piss the rest of us off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

There is no pvssy on this planet good enough for any man to sacrifice his self respect over. None.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> The sex is great when she's into it but she is not into it much. I don't beg people, but I concede that my frustration is at times palpable.
> 
> OK, what are you alluding to? Knock it back altogether? I can't force her to want it every day. Long before any affair she was never like this anyway - LD? Seriously, the A sparked her up but she's never been hanging out for sex - ever; and it is not that she is not into me. When I was younger and hotter her frequency was low.
> 
> But now the cougar years are upon her and I'm no longer hot.....


I don't think I was alluding to anything. I'm saying flat out she's not into you and if she does allow you access to the golden vagina it will be because she wants to shut you up about it. 

What will happen if you don't say or do anything to initiate sex. Will she initiate? Will she ask about it? Or will she heave a sigh of relief that at least she doesn't have to do that with you again.

Why don't you try it and see what happens? Or doesn't happen.


----------



## Shaggy

I bet the hesvy booze consumption is a major contributor to her low drive for you, alcohol is a depressant.


----------



## Horizon

I can't deny what you are saying. My HD has been constant and has been something that has bugged her from year dot. The A came about when the relationship went south south along with my self respect.

It's just that I'm so bloody horny! In this respect my HD has been part of my downfall. Funny even when my health went south - Diabetes, low Testosterone, weight gain, depression, ageing....my HD has never departed. My testosterone therapy (gel) hasn't changed much about anything other than rid me of those headaches and weird tired feeling I used to get.

I'm the HD master! without the HD playpen.

OK, the challenge is to leave her alone. Put my HD aside, shake hands with the unemployed occasionally and see what happens. OK, I'l try it and maybe gain some self respect along the way. Yeah, I'm too easy, right.

Yes, heavy booze consumption is key to much of this I reckon - excluding the aberration of the A (hoping that was an aberration).


----------



## LostViking

A low drive alcohic who cheats with younger guys. 

Yeah.... That's a woman I want to be married to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

LostViking said:


> A low drive alcohic who cheats with younger guys.
> 
> Yeah.... That's a woman I want to be married to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:slap::banghead:


----------



## LostViking

I fvcking hate this thread. Why do I come here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

LostViking said:


> I fvcking hate this thread. Why do I come here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: because you like doing this ---> :banghead:


----------



## tom67

LostViking said:


> I fvcking hate this thread. Why do I come here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whip that dead horse you bastage!


----------



## tom67

Whip It - Devo - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

LostViking said:


> I fvcking hate this thread. Why do I come here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



How has the OP changed himself? Has he lost weight? Found a new job?

The thread has lasted so long that don't remember for sure. But I do remember that I wanted him to change himself, to act. But who am I put another person who needs to do the same. Some percentage of TAM involves hypocrisy.


----------



## carpenoctem

Even when / if she deigns to have sex with you, she probably does it with contempt for you in her mind, and most likely visualizes the OM in her mind to make it bearable.

*Wouldn’t it be much more manly to masturbate with some dignity, than strenuously campaign for and accept this farcical sex?*

Horizon, you seem to have developed a morbid fascination for your own victimhood and humiliation, and for the attention of the kind-cruel audience in the TAM theatre.

But in all these, a life of dignity (which is everyone’s inherent right) is slipping you by.

Sad to witness.


----------



## Horizon

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Even when / if she deigns to have sex with you, she probably does it with contempt for you in her mind, and most likely visualizes the OM in her mind to make it bearable.
> 
> *Wouldn’t it be much more manly to masturbate with some dignity, than strenuously campaign for and accept this farcical sex?*
> 
> Horizon, you seem to have developed a morbid fascination for your own victimhood and humiliation, and for the attention of the kind-cruel audience in the TAM theatre.
> 
> But in all these, a life of dignity (which is everyone’s inherent right) is slipping you by.
> 
> Sad to witness.


That explains the intense orgasm. It did cross my mind to use the A as a verbal stimulant while we are f**king; on those rare occasions - bit brutal though. Then again....

I am all for strenuous wanking and tonight could be the go.

I get your point. I do wonder if my violent abusive upbringing has left me with such a poor opinion of myself that victimhood and humiliation are close companions. Attention seeking an antidote.

Therapy hasn't changed anything about my inferiority complex but I do feel I have made improvements to what i was like years ago. I wonder why she is with me? Maybe I'm the only one who will accept her faults, or her own feelings of inferiority have blocked her climbing the social / corporate ladder.

An occasional affair higher up the totem pole an antidote maybe?


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon said:


> I do wonder if my violent abusive upbringing has left me with such a poor opinion of myself that victimhood and humiliation are close companions. Attention seeking an antidote.
> 
> Therapy hasn't changed anything about my inferiority complex but I do feel I have made improvements to what i was like years ago. I wonder why she is with me? Maybe I'm the only one who will accept her faults, or her own feelings of inferiority have blocked her climbing the social / corporate ladder.
> 
> An occasional affair higher up the totem pole an antidote maybe?




*It is striking that you can face your own negatives like a real man (brutally, in fact), while being unable to do so vis a vis HER negatives.*

You are a complex man, Sir.



*She is not really with you. You are with her.*

And she knows no other man will cling to her as desperately as you. Maybe that is the hook for her. Maybe that is why she continues in this marriage.

*Maybe you are her last-resort man* -- after she is through with others. (She has never told you that she will never again go after another man, has she? I mean, has she articulated those words?)




I wish I could offer you a well-remunerated employment, so that the change can begin.

Wish you the best.


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Even when / if she deigns to have sex with you, she probably does it with contempt for you in her mind, and most likely visualizes the OM in her mind to make it bearable.


Evidence? Or are you just throwing out worst case hypotheses?


----------



## Horizon

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *It is striking that you can face your own negatives like a real man (brutally, in fact), while being unable to do so vis a vis HER negatives.*
> 
> You are a complex man, Sir.
> 
> 
> 
> *She is not really with you. You are with her.*
> 
> And she knows no other man will cling to her as desperately as you. Maybe that is the hook for her. Maybe that is why she continues in this marriage.
> 
> *Maybe you are her last-resort man* -- after she is through with others. (She has never told you that she will never again go after another man, has she? I mean, has she articulated those words?)
> 
> I wish I could offer you a well-remunerated employment, so that the change can begin.
> 
> Wish you the best.


Thanks for your kind words, her quote -

"I swear, no, I guarantee this will never happen again"

"How can you do that?" I said.


----------



## alte Dame

You both seem to be wounded people who are acting out and self-protecting. You, Horizon, are glib about your pain after experiencing what you have. You sound like a prisoner who has been subjected to ongoing abuse - you can't get away from it, so you deal with it in your own way, with resignation and some black humor. She crawls into a bottle every day. Neither one of you leaves. You both act like you are helplessly stuck with one another.

My belief after reading this thread for so long is that you both need real outside support and help, you for some of the coping behaviors that you have developed over the years that are not necessarily healthy for you for the long run, and she very certainly for her alcoholism. You don't have to do this healing together. I keep hoping that you will start advocating for your own life & take a big step to change things just for yourself.


----------



## carpenoctem

_Quote:
Originally Posted by*carpenoctem* View Post
Even when / if she deigns to have sex with you, she probably does it with contempt for you in her mind, and most likely visualizes the OM in her mind to make it bearable.

QUOTE=Wazza;3781810]Evidence? Or are you just throwing out worst case hypotheses?[/QUOTE]_

No evidence whatsoever, wazza. Hence words such as ‘probably’, ‘most likely’.

There was probable cause for such an assumption.

Such is our doubtful inheritance of monogamy (at least on a psychological level), that even in best case scenarios, where the marriage is rock solid, it is highly probable that a spouse is standing proxy for some fantasy man / woman during sex.

Isn’t it?


----------



## RAN

Wrong Post


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carpenoctem* View Post
> Even when / if she deigns to have sex with you, she probably does it with contempt for you in her mind, and most likely visualizes the OM in her mind to make it bearable.
> 
> 
> 
> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence? Or are you just throwing out worst case hypotheses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> 
> No evidence whatsoever, wazza. Hence words such as ‘probably’, ‘most likely’.
> 
> There was probable cause for such an assumption.
> 
> 
> Such is our doubtful inheritance of monogamy (at least on a psychological level), that even in best case scenarios, where the marriage is rock solid, it is highly probable that a spouse is standing proxy for some fantasy man / woman during sex.
> 
> Isn’t it?


Infidelity sows doubt and focuses you on negatives. It was certainly something I had to deal with in reconciling, and believe I would have had to deal with in a different way had I divorced.

So, you can say "we all fantasise about someone other that our partner sometimes. It's normal and healthy even in the best relationships"

Or you can say "She has contempt for you. If she came she was obviously thinking of someone else."

The same basic fact used to convey two different messages.

From what Horizon has said her I think we have a couple who have been complacent in their marriage and lives drifting into territory that is unhealthy. One of them had an affair. They are struggling with reconciliation because they have a lot of underlying issues to deal with.

Horizon is doing the right thing, working on himself. He is not happy, but I get the sense he wants reconciliation, and is frustrated by how hard it is and how slow the progress seems to be. And he judges, correctly IMO, that things are still fragile.

I don't think his partner is the devil incarnate, or that she wants him gone, or that she is not trying. I think both of them in their own way are looking at the mess that the affair created (or highlighted) and struggling with how to fix it.

And I think we have to balance pointing out serious risks (like being careful when the OM was on town) without throwing pure negative speculation of worst case scenarios. Horizon...you know her.....if not putting our has always been part of her, then it is now normal, not a sign of the affair.

This is not a Pollyanna post. There are real and serious issues to deal with, and i can't say whether you guys will make it. But others in your situation have.


----------



## Horizon

alte Dame said:


> You both seem to be wounded people who are acting out and self-protecting. You, Horizon, are glib about your pain after experiencing what you have. You sound like a prisoner who has been subjected to ongoing abuse - you can't get away from it, so you deal with it in your own way, with resignation and some black humor. She crawls into a bottle every day. Neither one of you leaves. You both act like you are helplessly stuck with one another.
> 
> My belief after reading this thread for so long is that you both need real outside support and help, you for some of the coping behaviors that you have developed over the years that are not necessarily healthy for you for the long run, and she very certainly for her alcoholism. You don't have to do this healing together. I keep hoping that you will start advocating for your own life & take a big step to change things just for yourself.


That's it, I know it. I'm scraping along the bottom of the barrel but I am making the right moves. My WS doesn't to face herself and won't be told to face herself. She admits to certain issues but sees no necessity to act, not now anyway. And the big one that she will not admit to - drinking; but for her there is no problem. She is one of those people who is very sure of themselves and doesn't need to be told what to do let alone what might be wrong with her. She is independent like that. 

I don't know if I mentioned her response when 2 weeks ago I explained to her that IMO the "demons" she said she was fighting and the "issues with men" really needed early attention via a professional (particularly if it would aid Recon) - she said that it was a bit rich for me to sit on my depression for years and not do a thing and now finally act after the cat was out of the bag. I had done this all in my own good time and so would she. 

I had an interesting talk with my counselor last night. He thinks that my WS might have always wanted a man higher up the totem pole and may well still want that but she can't do what is required to have that. See, she is a very down to earth blokey type girl (man in a woman's body type thing). The men higher up the totem pole might have ideals in women she can't meet. She can meet some of them - intellectually, physically to a degree but she could never play that BS game.

He thinks she refuses to have her head read for what it might reveal, whatever that might be - hello! man, I'm much smarter than this counselor. i think there may be truth to that but it's BS anyway. the chemicals flow and then bingo - however you can't deny that it was the younger newer better model. You just can't get away from the fact that she f**ked a better model. No amount of intellectualising is going to change that. 

These cheaters leave you guessing, one thing i really hate. Transparency my behind!


----------



## carpenoctem

Wazza: Hello.

I presume Horizon, per se, is worth as much respect as a man, as you and I presume we are worth. My responses are based on that presumption.

Her anger could be temporary. Her hate could be transient. Her indifference could perhaps diminish / disappear when / if love / lust is rekindled.

*But disrespect, that is a toxic animal that crouches far deeper. *It almost becomes instinctive, once it becomes chronic.

(Yes, an act of superlative heroism / a dramatic transformation can knock it out of her, but that happens only in movies) 

Do you really think it is possible that she can climb out of it any time soon, at least to a plane of at-par mutual respect?

If not, should he or any other man, have to live with such disrespect (or even a fraction of it) from his spouse?

Is marriage, or any other human bondage, worth suffering tangible disrespect?

(Yes, many people live with it, just as many people in situations similar to his remain married. But since we are discussing a better outcome for Horizon, I wonder whether he should settle for that / he IS settling for that / setting himself up for that).




Going by what is generally bandied here:

If he finds employment, becomes financially independent and regains a little manly enigma, she might rediscover a little respect for him. 

*Hitch: he is finding it hard to find employment.*



If he decides to divorce, and stands firm on that decision, she might regain some respect for him.

*Hitch: That will make his life harder *(court procedures, child custody, child support issues, etc), at least in the short run. Plus, that is not what he WANTS, right now.



Even if he does a clear-cut 180, she might regain some respect for him.

*Hitch: 180 is near-impossible when you are financially dependent.*



Yes. He could *wait out / work at* the process of a Reconciliation (quasi / real),
of time-healing (ending in continued togetherness / separation),
of her alcoholism de-addiction, of his re-individualization, x, y and z.
I presume that is what he doing now.

*Hitch: Life* (factors such as advancing age and diminishing health, wealth, sex market value, etc., making a later restart more difficult as time goes by).

*Tough call.*




From an external POV, it seems Horizon needs to get out of his self-imploding co-dependence first, in order to be a more wholesome human being.

I wonder whether that is possible within this marriage, and whether they can really re-script this marriage to enable that.




Some more presumptions:

When you were confronted with infidelity, Wazza, you were fundamentally in a much better place than Horizon. You were well-employed, and presumably had significant self-worth and social acceptance. And you did not have his baggage of traumatic childhood and inferiority perception.

Not to diminish your trauma, but it seems Horizon is on much shakier ground. Right now, he doesn’t seem to have any real leverage.

*The irony is, if he decides to quit, he will suddenly find some real leverage.*

*Viz., legal leverage* (if he divorces, the courts will favour him in terms of child support, etc). But that is not what he wants.

Plus, *psychological leverage *– the WW finding some respect for the BH when he demonstrates that he can face life without her.

If he continues status quo… …? Hard to tell.


----------



## Horizon

She's moving to another plateau. The new job with the OS travel is almost in the bag and she nonchalantly states she wants a new Audi as her lease vehicle. 

How ironic that I copped the years of the hard drinking suburban type knock about party girl (not my kind) and now she's doing the very thing she eschewed - social climbing. 

Does anyone see my point? Oh yes, I'm defining myself by her - a mistake, a bad habit. Just pi**es me off. The anchor gets rusty so you just cut it loose.

I have a had a shocker today. I'm sick and I can't get this POSf**ker out of my head. I've had this happen twice before - high stress, in this case the day in court, plenty of adrenalin and then wham!

I literally felt my energy plunge when I left the court and because there is a flu epidemic and some of my family are crook I copped it big time. So not good, regressed a bit, hot tub here I come.


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Wazza: Hello.
> 
> I presume Horizon, per se, is worth as much respect as a man, as you and I presume we are worth. My responses are based on that presumption.
> 
> Her anger could be temporary. Her hate could be transient. Her indifference could perhaps diminish / disappear when / if love / lust is rekindled.
> 
> *But disrespect, that is a toxic animal that crouches far deeper. *It almost becomes instinctive, once it becomes chronic.
> 
> (Yes, an act of superlative heroism / a dramatic transformation can knock it out of her, but that happens only in movies)
> 
> Do you really think it is possible that she can climb out of it any time soon, at least to a plane of at-par mutual respect?
> 
> If not, should he or any other man, have to live with such disrespect (or even a fraction of it) from his spouse?
> 
> Is marriage, or any other human bondage, worth suffering tangible disrespect?
> 
> (Yes, many people live with it, just as many people in situations similar to his remain married. But since we are discussing a better outcome for Horizon, I wonder whether he should settle for that / he IS settling for that / setting himself up for that).
> 
> Going by what is generally bandied here:
> 
> If he finds employment, becomes financially independent and regains a little manly enigma, she might rediscover a little respect for him.
> 
> *Hitch: he is finding it hard to find employment.*
> 
> If he decides to divorce, and stands firm on that decision, she might regain some respect for him.
> 
> *Hitch: That will make his life harder *(court procedures, child custody, child support issues, etc), at least in the short run. Plus, that is not what he WANTS, right now.
> 
> Even if he does a clear-cut 180, she might regain some respect for him.
> 
> *Hitch: 180 is near-impossible when you are financially dependent.*
> 
> Yes. He could *wait out / work at* the process of a Reconciliation (quasi / real),
> of time-healing (ending in continued togetherness / separation),
> of her alcoholism de-addiction, of his re-individualization, x, y and z.
> I presume that is what he doing now.
> 
> *Hitch: Life* (factors such as advancing age and diminishing health, wealth, sex market value, etc., making a later restart more difficult as time goes by).
> 
> *Tough call.*
> 
> From an external POV, it seems Horizon needs to get out of his self-imploding co-dependence first, in order to be a more wholesome human being.
> 
> I wonder whether that is possible within this marriage, and whether they can really re-script this marriage to enable that.
> 
> Some more presumptions:
> 
> When you were confronted with infidelity, Wazza, you were fundamentally in a much better place than Horizon. You were well-employed, and presumably had significant self-worth and social acceptance. And you did not have his baggage of traumatic childhood and inferiority perception.
> 
> Not to diminish your trauma, but it seems Horizon is on much shakier ground. Right now, he doesn’t seem to have any real leverage.
> 
> *The irony is, if he decides to quit, he will suddenly find some real leverage.
> 
> Viz., legal leverage* (if he divorces, the courts will favour him in terms of child support, etc). But that is not what he wants.
> 
> Plus, *psychological leverage *– the WW finding some respect for the BH when he demonstrates that he can face life without her.
> 
> If he continues status quo… …? Hard to tell.


Hi *carpenoctem*,

I don't have enough info to compare myself to Horizon, but your presumptions bout h place I was in (and possibly about where Horizon is) are wrong.

I also think it good to give Horizon perspectives and thoughts, but bad to try and decide for him one way or another.

It almost seems you are tacitly admitting to painting things in a bad light to steer him towards divorce.


----------



## carpenoctem

Wazza said:


> Hi Zug,
> 
> I don't have enough info to compare myself to Horizon, but your presumptions bout h place I was in (and possibly about where Horizon is) are wrong.
> 
> I also think it good to give Horizon perspectives and thoughts, but bad to try and decide for him one way or another.
> 
> It almost seems you are tacitly admitting to painting things in a bad light to steer him towards divorce.




No, Wazza. That would be as tangential as saying you are trying to push him towards Reconciliation, regardless of whether that is good for his long-term sanity and psychological integrity as an individual.

But yes, if he were my own brother / son, I would be encouraging him to heal from this on his own, not with her.

I am presuming that if he were your own brother / son, your approach to this situation would be the same as your approach on this thread.

All said, I am sure that in our own ways, you and I both hope Horizon finds himself in a better place. 


P.S.:
I am sorry about my wrong assumptions about your situation, Wazza. That was facetious of me.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> She's moving to another plateau. The new job with the OS travel is almost in the bag and she nonchalantly states she wants a new Audi as her lease vehicle.
> 
> How ironic that I copped the years of the hard drinking suburban type knock about party girl (not my kind) and now she's doing the very thing she eschewed - social climbing.
> 
> Does anyone see my point? Oh yes, I'm defining myself by her - a mistake, a bad habit. Just pi**es me off. The anchor gets rusty so you just cut it loose.
> 
> I have a had a shocker today. I'm sick and I can't get this POSf**ker out of my head. I've had this happen twice before - high stress, in this case the day in court, plenty of adrenalin and then wham!
> 
> I literally felt my energy plunge when I left the court and because there is a flu epidemic and some of my family are crook I copped it big time. So not good, regressed a bit, hot tub here I come.


Ugh, flu sucks. I hope it's just a 24 hr bug.

As far as the car is concerned, why do you care what she's driving? She's paying for it out of her own income which is about to increase. Right? Are the children going to go hungry or without shoes? What's the problem with it?


----------



## Wazza

I want to comment on Zug's respect point.

Respect is important, but comes from within. A lot of the work we are advising you to do on yourself Horizon, is really about giving you respect as a person.

One of the most important lessons I learned from Mrs Wazza's affair is that I cannot find my sense of self respect and self worth from her. It has to come from me. And then, well maybe I decide to share my life with her, or maybe not. But if I share, it is because we both judge the relationship worthwhile, for whatever reason. And for me the two big reasons are:

1) Our shared history. I stayed for the kids. We now have grandkids, and a lot of shared experiences. We know each others faults and foibles. .This takes time. I am in my 50s and can never have that with anyone else.

2) She is my best friend. Warts and all.

Mrs Horizon is not entitled to cheat, but she is entitled to be herself. And you are entitled to make your choices. 

If I no longer had Mrs Wazza's respect, then I would be sad, but it would not damage my self esteem. That is her issue not mine. It's actually quite a liberating place to be.

A lot of people on TAM bang on about "I won't be disrespected!!" and that is certainly their right...but if you are old enough to get the analogy, it kind of reminds me of Marty McFly in the "Back To The Future" movies and his "Nobody calls me chicken" line. If you don't know the movies, watch them, watch that thread develop (in II and III), and think about how he handles the gunfight with Bufort Tannen. Its only a movie, but there is a serious life lesson in that. The best way to prove yourself is to not have to.


----------



## Wazza

Additional comment...developing inner strength and self respect does not mean I am not vulnerable. We all experience sadness, we all need to break down and feel emotions at times.

Mrs Wazza is my safe place for sadness with many things, but for relationship issues I have another VERY good friend I lean on. She had issues in her own marriage, and we are each others safe place when we need to be vulnerable....with appropriate safeguards of course, because opposite sex friends have to be handled very carefully.

If you find that safe place you can be strong in front of your wife.

You have us Horizon, and we are real and here for you. But do you have any close friends you can lean on?


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Additional comment...developing inner strength and self respect does not mean I am not vulnerable. We all experience sadness, we all need to break down and feel emotions at times.
> 
> Mrs Wazza is my safe place for sadness with many things, but for relationship issues I have another VERY good friend I lean on. She had issues in her own marriage, and we are each others safe place when we need to be vulnerable....with appropriate safeguards of course, because opposite sex friends have to be handled very carefully.
> 
> If you find that safe place you can be strong in front of your wife.
> 
> You have us Horizon, and we are real and here for you. But do you have any close friends you can lean on?


No - my best friend is a lost cause; self centered, unable to provide that kind of sustenance in any way. 

My older brother to a degree - now that my Mother knows, I would say my Mother.

I hate feeling blocked to share emotions with my WS but blocked I am. Part of the fallout - those periods of resentment, which she says is evidence that I hate her etc, but are simply those days when the horror of it takes hold.


----------



## turnera

"evidence that you hate her" is just a cheater's way to silence you.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> "evidence that you hate her" is just a cheater's way to silence you.


I am sure it is true sometimes but certainly not always.

My wife and I struggled with this. I needed to talk about things to process it. She was so ashamed of herself (post fog) that she couldn't stand to talk about it and felt like I was bringing it up to attack her.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, and she wanted you to stop doing it.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Yeah, and she wanted you to stop doing it.


Of course. But the feeling of being attacked was real, she was not just saying it to shut me up.

Point ring, maybe Mrs Horizon is playing games to dodge awkward quetions, or maybe she is genuinely struggling with guilt and remorse. And that is perfectly understandable, in fact is is a sign of someone you can reconcile with IMO.


----------



## Racer

Horizon said:


> I hate feeling blocked to share emotions with my WS but blocked I am. Part of the fallout - those periods of resentment, which she says is evidence that I hate her etc, but are simply those days when the horror of it takes hold.


I got that one too... Not so much a ploy to deflect, but for my WW it was part of the "why try?" excuses and justifications for her actions.

I told her it wasn't hate. It's anger, rage even at what she did, mixed with a loss of respect for someone I once admired. Then reassured her I thought it could be rebuilt, but not through ambivalence or pretending it's the same as before. She was going to have to work at it instead of coming up with reasons not to work.

And just keep talking... Doesn't really matter what she thinks of you as long as you present the true you. And it sounds like she's sharing back as far as how she interprets what you say. Just clarify for her what you do feel.... and don't bullsh1t it. If you are pissed and triggering, don't deny it or bury it inside.


----------



## LostViking

My head is about to drop off.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon,
Maybe you can find a close female friend from whom you can draw emotional support, with appropriate boundaries of course, to help you establish some self worth and regain your confidence.

Tell your wife that since you cannot talk to her about the pain of her affair you need someone to give you feedback and reassurance that you can heal from this and that you are making progress.

I have lost track are you in counseling, maybe a female counselor?

Then maybe showing some emotional freedom and independence as a result will help her to see you differently.

If she sees you making progress she will respect you more and it will be a mirror to her own progress, i.e. you are moving on without her and are able to establish emotional connection in normal non abusive relationships.

LostViking; I want to snatch your head out of the basket and peer into your eyes.


----------



## turnera

Wazza said:


> Of course. But the feeling of being attacked was real, she was not just saying it to shut me up.


Yes she was. She may have not been _aware_ of it, but she wanted it to stop, so she told you it was hurting her.


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> Horizon,
> Maybe you can find a close female friend from whom you can draw emotional support, with appropriate boundaries of course, to help you establish some self worth and regain your confidence.
> 
> Tell your wife that since you cannot talk to her about the pain of her affair you need someone to give you feedback and reassurance that you can heal from this and that you are making progress.
> 
> I have lost track are you in counseling, maybe a female counselor?
> 
> Then maybe showing some emotional freedom and independence as a result will help her to see you differently.
> 
> If she sees you making progress she will respect you more and it will be a mirror to her own progress, i.e. you are moving on without her and are able to establish emotional connection in normal non abusive relationships.
> 
> LostViking; I want to snatch your head out of the basket and peer into your eyes.


Hm. Was the close female friend bit a reference to my post?

Gender doesn't matter in my case. The person happened to be female. The friendship happened. In an appropriate way. With wife's knowledge and permission.


----------



## Wazza

Wazza said:


> Of course. But the feeling of being attacked was real, she was not just saying it to shut me up.
> 
> Point being, maybe Mrs Horizon is playing games to dodge awkward quetions, or maybe she is genuinely struggling with guilt and remorse. And that is perfectly understandable, in fact is is a sign of someone you can reconcile with IMO.





turnera said:


> Yes she was. She may have not been _aware_ of it, but she wanted it to stop, so she told you it was hurting her.


Your response is wrong as a simple matter of fact. In my case, at the time, she didn't tell me it was hurting her, she avoided talking about it. The fact that it hurt her came our much later after we got the talking flowing.

But I don't think that's the important bit. The important bit, for Horizon, is that avoiding talking about it could be a sign that she doesn't care enough to make an effort, or that she cares an awful lot and is avoiding because it hurts her. Those two scenarios, in my thinking, have very different meanings for the relationship.


----------



## Decorum

Wazza said:


> Hm. Was the close female friend bit a reference to my post?


It definitely occurred to me because of your post, but if he can do it safely he can get some much needed female feedback, (which I think would be harder for his wife to dismiss, hence a counselor might be best), and he might help his wife visualize his acceptability to other females and his ability to move on. 

I would not go as far as Machiavelli as to recommend flirting or developing a harem but anything he could do to honorable up his rank would be a good thing.

You may not approve, and I have never suggested something like this but I think it may be something to consider, its subtle but empowering.

I am trying to work from the angle you mentioned that she is as remorseful as she knows how to be and is working on reconciliation in her own way. (Which is a little like putting out a fire in your own way, against all advice.).

Did you think I was being snarky ha ha,

I was tweaking you a little, but I still think it is worth consideration.


----------



## Horizon

I wish I knew! When you bring it up (like bringing up vomit), on those rare occasions, they say all the right things - but only briefly.

Her line is that it is painful, she feels sick when she thinks about what she did and she wants to move on. I have to accept that on face value. She is saying that she can't do anything more than the little she has done.

We tried the "10 mins ask any question" thing as suggested by my counselor months back but it only lasted 2 nights. Each time I got angry - particularly with the oral details. To nonchalantly state "I almost gagged" tipped me over the edge.

That then became a foundation stone reason not to talk to me because I would become explosive. I told her this is the risk you have to take because of what you created and what I need to recover. Never happened again.

As time passes I can see very clearly her unashamed independence. Not a bad thing but it manifests in spending. Yet another pair of new shoes magically materialised this week. I had a succinct conversation with her 3 months ago about turning this around and putting funds aside for our trip. Like her drinking she just cannot stop.

When I examine her work PC history it is choc full off shopping websites - always has been. There is nothing wrong with looking, she is a woman after all, but she will not commit to taking action to reduce spending - "it was only $20" her standard riposte.

Anyway, isn't the point about communication that I shouldn't be left guessing what she might mean. Mad.

I have become so insecure that I now regularly think about and believe that this is the tip of the iceberg. That this is all just a slow wind down until the kids are old enough or some exec comes on the scene. That's where I am at. That she is well aware of what she can attract because she has a had a bit of "new".

Another affair when she heads OS for business meetings twice a year. 

Why would I want to disclose my fears, reduce my dignity, to the very person who is the source of it?


----------



## carpenoctem

Wazza said:


> One of the most important lessons I learned from Mrs Wazza's affair is that I cannot find my sense of self respect and self worth from her. It has to come from me.
> 
> *If I no longer had Mrs Wazza's respect, then I would be sad, but it would not damage my self esteem. *That is her issue not mine. It's actually quite a liberating place to be.



It would probably have damaged your self esteem if you were financially dependent on her too, Wazza.

That is the crux of Horizon's situation.

While living in a material world, how can one have that 'I' sense without financial self-dependence / assurance?



But the travails of separation after decades together - of restarting life itself as one has known till then, walking into an unknown future with a fake smile to mask the angst about the prospect of lonely later years, and the spectre of another man usurping / sharing your space with your child... ...all those are powerful reasons to stay.

But once you decide to stay, you cannot but be hit hard by the daily dysfunction and conflict. So messy, the Reconciliation phase. 

Congratulations for making it through the mess and rebuilding successfully, Wazza.


----------



## Wazza

Lots of relationships fight over money, or different values on things like drinking. The thing is to separate those out from the affair, and not to lump them in as part of the same major problem. I am a saver and my wife is a spender. We always fought about money and we probably always will.

Depending how explosive you are, how aggressive you are, in fights, then trying to avoid conversations that lead to fights is totally understandable on her part. I am not denying your right to know, but she wouldn't be human if she didn't get defensive. As one betrayed spouse to another, I get how unfair it is that that she does this to you then it's up to you to moderate your emotions so discussion can occur??? WTF???? Well, you have to decide. Would you rather stand your ground, or compromise because the discussion is the end goal?

As for the future....she knows she can pull, so she will go after strange again. Maybe. Or she knows how much pain she caused, she is sick at herself, and she has learned her lesson. I can't tell you which of those is true for you. And it is an important question.

In your shoes I would probably not disclose my fears right now. Certainly not gratuitously. To my wife now it's all out there, but the emotion is acceptance, not fear. The fact is, she showed herself capable of attaching to another man, being intimate with him sexually and emotionally, ganging up with him against me, lying to me, blaming me, and contemplating leaving me. And nothing I did could prevent it. I will never again assume that she is always on my side. I will never again make a serious life plan that does not include the contingency of divorce. She doesn't like it, but that is what she did. She can work within that constraint, or she can accept that her actions destroyed the marriage and leave. So it is out there and on the table with her. But not in a sense of fear or patheticness, if that makes sense. The message is..."This is what you did. I am prepared to make the marriage work, but on a basis of truth, not lies. I want you around, but if you are not adult enough to deal with the consequences of what you did, noone is forcing you to stay." The tone is not beating her up, but facing an unpleasant truth.

If you want to look at it in terms of power games, I have the ascendency (not that I focus on that perspective).

When we say to work on yourself, part of what it does it get you to this place. I was not there at the time of my wife's affair. I am now.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> It definitely occurred to me because of your post, but if he can do it safely he can get some much needed female feedback, (which I think would be harder for his wife to dismiss, hence a counselor might be best), and he might help his wife visualize his acceptability to other females and his ability to move on.
> 
> I would not go as far as Machiavelli as to recommend flirting or developing a harem but anything he could do to honorable up his rank would be a good thing.
> 
> You may not approve, and I have never suggested something like this but I think it may be something to consider, its subtle but empowering.
> 
> I am trying to work from the angle you mentioned that she is as remorseful as she knows how to be and is working on reconciliation in her own way. (Which is a little like putting out a fire in your own way, against all advice.).
> 
> Did you think I was being snarky ha ha,
> 
> I was tweaking you a little, but I still think it is worth consideration.


Have never known you to be snarky. 

I guess I am not into all those games. They are kind of bullcrap to me, and forming other female friendships to rile her seems to me a bit juvenile and dangerous. 

I am who I am. Mrs Wazza can like me or leave. 

My close friend lives far enough away that we must communication electronically and there are safeguards to keep it appropriate. I would not form such a close friendship without those safeguards. I am a male and cannot be close to a woman without having sexual thoughts (perverted me!!!) so it needs to stop a long way short of where anything bad could happen.


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> It would probably have damaged your self esteem if you were financially dependent on her too, Wazza.
> 
> That is the crux of Horizon's situation.
> 
> While living in a material world, how can one have that 'I' sense without financial self-dependence / assurance?
> 
> 
> 
> But the travails of separation after decades together - of restarting life itself as one has known till then, walking into an unknown future with a fake smile to mask the angst about the prospect of lonely later years, and the spectre of another man usurping / sharing your space with your child... ...all those are powerful reasons to stay.
> 
> But once you decide to stay, you cannot but be hit hard by the daily dysfunction and conflict. So messy, the Reconciliation phase.
> 
> Congratulations for making it through the mess and rebuilding successfully, Wazza.


Financial dependence is complex. Divorce might have bankrupted me...long story. But I never thought about that, nor felt gratitude that I had a job, at the time....my world came crashing down, my unreasonably fragile self esteem went through the floor.

I know I talk about being confident now, and I am, but believe me I was a mess then.

I reckon Horizon is doing just fine under the circumstances.


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon said:


> Her line is that it is painful, she feels sick when she thinks about what she did and she wants to move on. I have to accept that on face value. She is saying that she can't do anything more than the little she has done.
> 
> ... ...
> 
> I have become so insecure that I now regularly think about and believe that this is the tip of the iceberg. That this is all just a slow wind down until the kids are old enough or some exec comes on the scene. That's where I am at. That she is well aware of what she can attract because she has a had a bit of "new".
> 
> Another affair when she heads OS for business meetings twice a year.




She does not want repeat shaming.

You don’t want repeat cheating.


*By common logic, if the repercussions of infidelity are not greater than the recreational values of it, chances of a repeat offense is high.*

Then again, it varies from person to person.

*At least, do try to make sure that if she cheats again, you would not THEN be in the same level of dependence paralysis that you are in now.*

God forbid, if she does it again, you should ideally be in a position to walk and be on your own, or stay by *sheer* choice, minus the aspect of financial dependence (apologies for bringing that irritating point up again and again).

Hope you have a better day tomorrow.


----------



## carpenoctem

Wazza said:


> To my wife now it's all out there, but the emotion is acceptance, not fear. The fact is, she showed herself capable of attaching to another man, being intimate with him sexually and emotionally, ganging up with him against me, lying to me, blaming me, and contemplating leaving me. And nothing I did could prevent it. *I will never again assume that she is always on my side. *I will never again make a serious life plan that does not include the contingency of divorce. She doesn't like it, but that is what she did.



That struck so hard, Wazza.

I guess this is what infidelity does -- changing a BS *from "I will take a bullet for her" to "I will never again assume that she is always on my side."*


----------



## Decorum

Wazza said:


> Have never known you to be snarky.
> 
> I guess I am not into all those games. They are kind of bullcrap to me, and forming other female friendships to rile her seems to me a bit juvenile and dangerous.
> 
> I am who I am. Mrs Wazza can like me or leave.
> 
> My close friend lives far enough away that we must communication electronically and there are safeguards to keep it appropriate. I would not form such a close friendship without those safeguards. I am a male and cannot be close to a woman without having sexual thoughts (perverted me!!!) so it needs to stop a long way short of where anything bad could happen.



  IRL I am a bit of a tease.


Yeah Im a member of the pervert club myself so I keep a safe disance as well.

Back to my post,

Do you really think this would be a bad idea for him?

Consider it apart form my indescrition.

I would not recomend it for the purpose of riling her up, that would be pointless.

I did not want to say it but since Horizon has mentioned it above, the OS trips would eat me alive.

She has to have enough respect for him to know she will be the loser if she is unfathful.

I dont want to blow it up, I do think it is painful for her (I did not before), but if there is no understanding no respect established, before she goes Horizon can only think the worst. Then what ground will their reconcilation gain and hold for the future?

I think time is running out.

BTW I sit here covered in bullcrap 

Take care!


----------



## treyvion

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> That struck so hard, Wazza.
> 
> I guess this is what infidelity does -- changing a BS *from "I will take a bullet for her" to "I will never again assume that she is always on my side."*


Why take a bullet
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

I know that my track record here - spinning my wheels etc has lead to a mountain of frustration but as I have said before, it has been part of the process. 

Be that as it may, I have made it clear to my WS, with no uncertainty, that if I get even an iota of a sniff that she is headed down this path again then it is game over. I mean that.

In this sense I am a hypocrite when I disclosed some weeks back how she was flirting with a work colleague from interstate and wanted to catch up for lunch. She disclosed at the time that she knew about his private situation - the fact that he was in a two year relationship after the failure of a 12 year marriage. I pointed out to her that yet again she was headed to an EA. She refuted my claim but I notice she has not had further contact with him - at this stage.

As I explained, it may well have been innocent work banter (which most partners are never privy to) but with the knowledge of her cheating and the nature of the banter I told her the contact was inappropriate. Effectively she agreed. But the issue remains - if she needs that "validation" as she needed it up to March this year then there is only one thing I can do.

My gut feeling is that she will do it again - I hope I am wrong but she is just at that cougar last shot age, she has that entitlement, that sense of power if you like - all that stuff. I may be wrong but look what it's done to me - I have very little faith in anything.

Just on my best friend - he has never visited me. Our last home which we occupied for 12 years before coming her, he never visited. He just will not get off his arse and drive over from the northern beaches (the insular peninsula we call it). he has never paid me that respect. I must be old fashioned, I used to believe in respect and good manners - sadly the lack of either has infiltrated my own home.


----------



## the guy

Your old lady needs to be spanked.

Sorry but during this fragile marriage she just needs to be punished and thats all I got to say about that.


BTW respect is commanded not "believed in" and expected! if your really "old fashion" your old lady would be over your knee!!!!


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> That struck so hard, Wazza.
> 
> I guess this is what infidelity does -- changing a BS *from "I will take a bullet for her" to "I will never again assume that she is always on my side."*


It was the beginning point of the journey.

A lot of people on TAM say a cheater has a fundamental defect and you just have to find someone without that defect.

I think it is less black and white. I think everyone has their breaking point, and you need to know where it is and how to deal with it.

So my wife is an amazingly moral person, one of the most caring, trustworthy and moral people I know.

But she also has her moral blind spots.

When she cheated it was a horrible six months but there was a perfect storm of factors at play. By understanding how she got to that point I know how to manage the risks and lessen the chance if a repeat.

Horizon, I understand why you are worried about your wife's trips, and I would be too. Both my wife and I travel with work, and we both have opportunity to cheat if we want to. In your shoes, I would state this worries you and talk about what you could do to lessen it. The other question is, if she has business trips and you are working, who looks after the kids? My strong recommendation is that you need to have a job and will not consider putting that on hold to babysit. For much the same reason that I give...you are determined to be financially independent.

She needs to know how she will handle child care before accepting the new job. You need to be unyielding. She does not get a say.


----------



## Wazza

Horizon said:


> Just on my best friend - he has never visited me. Our last home which we occupied for 12 years before coming her, he never visited. He just will not get off his arse and drive over from the northern beaches (the insular peninsula we call it). he has never paid me that respect. I must be old fashioned, I used to believe in respect and good manners - sadly the lack of either has infiltrated my own home.


Insular peninsular. Great phrase.

At one stage of my life I moved from an affluent suburb to a working class one. I lost some friends who saw my new address as beneath them. I can do without friends like that....


Is that what you did? Whereabouts in Sydney are you? Working class of more ritzy?


----------



## Wazza

the guy said:


> Your old lady needs to be spanked.
> 
> Sorry but during this fragile marriage she just needs to be punished and thats all I got to say about that.
> 
> 
> BTW respect is commanded not "believed in" and expected! if your really "old fashion" your old lady would be over your knee!!!!


Either extremely kinky or borderline wife beating.


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> Back to my post,
> 
> Do you really think this would be a bad idea for him?
> 
> Consider it apart form my indescrition.
> 
> I would not recomend it for the purpose of riling her up, that would be pointless.


I can only speak for me. I find the idea so distasteful that I would never consider it. If that's what it takes, well time to move on IMO.

Not interested in bullsh1t games.


----------



## Decorum

Wazza said:


> I can only speak for me. I find the idea so distasteful that I would never consider it. If that's what it takes, well time to move on IMO.
> 
> Not interested in bullsh1t games.


Ok thanks!


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> Ok thanks!




I may lack subtlety in some of this stuff. Dunno.


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Insular peninsular. Great phrase.
> 
> At one stage of my life I moved from an affluent suburb to a working class one. I lost some friends who saw my new address as beneath them. I can do without friends like that....
> 
> 
> Is that what you did? Whereabouts in Sydney are you? Working class of more ritzy?


There is a bit of that but it's more downright laziness. But for sure people are snobbish about location. 

On a personal level I think it is a shame that my so called best mate doesn't have a clue what it means to be a friend. 

Correct me if I am wrong but a best friend is someone I would want to confide in. I would hope that I could approach a best friend with a trauma like infidelity. Maybe not? More than 40 years of friendship and he still gives zero. Knows nothing.


----------



## Decorum

Wazza said:


> I may lack subtlety in some of this stuff. Dunno.


Nope, its all good. I respect where you are comming from.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> On a personal level I think it is a shame that my so called best mate doesn't have a clue what it means to be a friend.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but a best friend is someone I would want to confide in. I would hope that I could approach a best friend with a trauma like infidelity. Maybe not? More than 40 years of friendship and he still gives zero. Knows nothing.


I wounder if this is the more experienced Horizon poking through.
When you can verbalize your boundaries and expectations to yourself that is only one step away from acting on them. 
Its only a matter of confidence then. No second guessing yourself! 
And dont spend time wondering what someone else is thinking. See that for what it is.

Btw on a daily basis expectations ruin relationships, if we try to control someone else. But deciding if you even want a relationship or if it needs repair based on them is square one.

I would like to think I would help someone in need whenever I could, but right or wrong I will judge you, and our level of friendship would go from there.

It has been said "You can tell alot about a man by the company he keeps", 
and also I would point out that people are attracted to strength, grace, kindness and execellence. The bond of time notwithstanding.

You can find friends that think well of you and will invest in the relationship. (Not saying to cut this guy off though)


----------



## Horizon

On one of those few occasions when I have expressed hurt about the lack of contact my WS would admonish me eg: "he did give you that lovely gift for your 50th, that's his way of showing you..." I say BS to that. Friendships are proactive IMO but here in OZ many men from my generation, most in fact, just cannot do emotion and I have been an emotional minefield - Toughen up, that's what the world wants. 

Actually whenever I mentioned a slight against me my WS would not auto take my side. That's the thing, in some situ I would like blind loyalty, sometimes - admonishment, bringing you back down to earth is not a bad thing, but some support....my neediness on display, not pretty, I suppose.

I can testify to me verbalising boundaries and expectations. If anything will pull that into focus an affair will. I'm much tougher on people now.

I raged against a brother some months back when he pulled sh!t on me one too many times, really gave it to him. Unfortunately it was just before we marched on behalf of our father and his comrades at our annual ANZAC Day memorial in the city centre. No a good look - my WS and children watching on.

That and other incidents topped off by the AVO would never have happened if my WS had not gone EA/PA. gee she has caused some SH!T -


----------



## Chaparral

Two questions. Did you ever read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER

Did you ever get a job?


----------



## bfree

the guy said:


> Your old lady needs to be spanked.
> 
> Sorry but during this fragile marriage she just needs to be punished and thats all I got to say about that.
> 
> 
> BTW respect is commanded not "believed in" and expected! if your really "old fashion" your old lady would be over your knee!!!!


Have I ever told you how much I love reading your posts! :rofl:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Wazza said:


> .
> I don't think his partner is the devil incarnate, or that she wants him gone, or that she is not trying. I think both of them in their own way are looking at the mess that the affair created (or highlighted) and struggling with how to fix it.


I don't think she is the devil incarnate either.

However, she cannot possibly be looking at the mess that the affair created in the same way that Horizon is, because she is looking at it from the bottom of a bottle. 

So her struggles and priorities are altogether different than his.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> It was the beginning point of the journey.
> 
> A lot of people on TAM say a cheater has a fundamental defect and you just have to find someone without that defect.
> 
> I think it is less black and white. I think everyone has their breaking point, and you need to know where it is and how to deal with it.
> 
> *Everyone can cheat. There are no perfectly moral people. You need to understand that and know going in that it is a possibility in any relationship with anyone.*
> 
> So my wife is an amazingly moral person, one of the most caring, trustworthy and moral people I know.
> 
> But she also has her moral blind spots.
> 
> When she cheated it was a horrible six months but there was a perfect storm of factors at play. By understanding how she got to that point I know how to manage the risks and lessen the chance if a repeat.
> 
> Horizon, I understand why you are worried about your wife's trips, and I would be too. Both my wife and I travel with work, and we both have opportunity to cheat if we want to. In your shoes, I would state this worries you and talk about what you could do to lessen it. The other question is, if she has business trips and you are working, who looks after the kids? My strong recommendation is that you need to have a job and will not consider putting that on hold to babysit. For much the same reason that I give...you are determined to be financially independent.
> 
> *She needs to know how she will handle child care before accepting the new job. You need to be unyielding. She does not get a say
> 
> This! A thousand times this!
> 
> *.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I don't think she is the devil incarnate either.
> 
> However, she cannot possibly be looking at the mess that the affair created in the same way that Horizon is, because she is looking at it from the bottom of a bottle.
> 
> So her struggles and priorities are altogether different than his.


Horizon, how much does she drink? Can you quantify it?


----------



## Horizon

Wazza said:


> Horizon, how much does she drink? Can you quantify it?


Yeah, I have said it before. She will consume the best part of half a bottle of whisky every night, 7 days a week. A standard bottle here is 750mls, so she is doing 300 to 400 mls per night (13-14 fluid ounces, is that right??)

Generally she consumes this over a four hour period :sleeping:


----------



## LostViking

Do you know how much damage she is doing to her liver? If she survives the next five years without coming down with psirrosis it would be a miracle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> Yeah, I have said it before. She will consume the best part of half a bottle of whisky every night, 7 days a week. A standard bottle here is 750mls, so she is doing 300 to 400 mls per night (13-14 fluid ounces, is that right??)
> 
> Generally she consumes this over a four hour period :sleeping:


750 millileters is approximately 25 U.S. fluid ounces. A standard drink contains 1.5 ounces of booze. That works out to 17 drinks per bottle. So your WP is consuming the equivalent of nearly 8 drinks a night. That is serious drinking.

It takes a normal human liver about 2 hours to convert one drink. If one consumes many drinks, the liver becomes less efficient and the metabolic process takes longer. So, your WP is essentially inebriated all day from the previous night's drinking.

Horizon, she is a full-blown alcoholic. I sent you the links to Al-Anon before (several times, I think). Please get help for yourself and your children.


----------



## Shaggy

That also has got to be impairing her mentally and emotionally too.


----------



## tom67

carmen ohio said:


> 750 millileters is approximately 25 U.S. fluid ounces. A standard drink contains 1.5 ounces of booze. That works out to 17 drinks per bottle. So your WP is consuming the equivalent of nearly 8 drinks a night. That is serious drinking.
> 
> It takes a normal human liver about 2 hours to convert one drink. If one consumes many drinks, the liver becomes less efficient and the metabolic process takes longer. So, your WP is essentially inebriated all day from the previous night's drinking.
> 
> Horizon, she is a full-blown alcoholic. I sent you the links to Al-Anon before (several times, I think). Please get help for yourself and your children.


Get that job and get your kids out of there.:iagree:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Shaggy said:


> That also has got to be impairing her mentally and emotionally too.


Of course it is impairing her this way. All day. Every day.

Alcohol binds directly to receptors for acetylcholine, serotonin and GABA, as well as effecting levels of dopamine. All of this controls moods and the ability to make judgements as well as other higher brain functions.

The level of insight that she needs to make the changes for her own and her children's wellbeing; and that of the health of her relationship, is impossible to be reached, let alone maintained, while all this brain chemistry is being so drastically altered.

There are many other health effects as everyone knows, but I primarily wanted to call Wazza out on his refusal to step down from his persistent idea that she is trying and should be given a chance to improve herself etc.

This absolutely cannot happen until she gets help for her alcoholism. 

But she doesn't think she has a problem with alcohol and this is why there is no hope for Horizon within this relationship, but he just cannot see it, or at the very least, doesn't want too.

He also doesn't see the problem, although he talks about her alcohol consumption so there may be some spark there deep within his brain, that wants him to acknowledge it consciously.

However, if he really, fully and consciously, believed in it, he would be getting help himself, but he isn't. That says a lot.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Aaah, the PA statement disguised as humour. Love it!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the invite, but no, I wont accept your offer.
> 
> I think the point I was trying to make has been made.
> 
> 
> The logic I have attributed to you from the reading of your posts is my personal one to make. I don't think there is any argument there.


Actually I think calling me out on a point, then refusing to discuss when challenged, is unhelpful. 

Horizon, I do not think your wife should just be given a chance to improve herself. I am not even certain she is trying, though I think she probably is. Happy to discuss further if it helps you, don't particularly need to otherwise.

My advice remains to work on yourself because that is what you can control.


----------



## Horizon

She is an alcoholic, she is going to score this much better job and I fear that something is going to happen to her.


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> She is an alcoholic, she is going to score this much better job and I fear that something is going to happen to her.


I find it unfathomable that she drinks that much and can still not only function at work but get a promotion as well. Are you enabling her? Are you supporting her in any way? Do you help her get up for work in the morning? Do you set out her clothes, do her laundry, set up the coffee maker? If so, stop right now. The only way an alcoholic turns things around is for their drinking to become such a problem that they begin to lose things that are important to them. Obviously you are not one of those things or she would be working harder to save this relationship. But maybe she values her job enough that if you stop enabling/supporting her in all ways it will impact her work life enough for her to take a second look at her drinking and the impact it is having. Just a thought.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> She is an alcoholic, she is going to score this much better job and I fear that something is going to happen to her.


I think you fear is warranted Horizon. 

If there is going to be even greater pressure on her with this new job, then her alcohol consumption will probably increase to cope with it.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> I find it unfathomable that she drinks that much and can still not only function at work but get a promotion as well. Are you enabling her? Are you supporting her in any way? Do you help her get up for work in the morning? Do you set out her clothes, do her laundry, set up the coffee maker? If so, stop right now. The only way an alcoholic turns things around is for their drinking to become such a problem that they begin to lose things that are important to them. Obviously you are not one of those things or she would be working harder to save this relationship. But maybe she values her job enough that if you stop enabling/supporting her in all ways it will impact her work life enough for her to take a second look at her drinking and the impact it is having. Just a thought.


Eight is a scary number, but I have seen worse. A lot worse.

Horizon, when does she drink? When I have known people with serious alcohol problems, one of the signs was they would drink to get through the day. Constantly drunk, and could only function in that state.

Is she doing that, or just over consuming at night?

The worry that the pressure of work will make things worse is a valid concern.


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## Amplexor

This thread has been cleaned up for a thread jack. Just say'n!


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## Horizon

She doesn't touch a drop during the day except on those odd occasions when she has a catch up with the girlfriends (on a weekend - usually only 3-4 times each year). Sometimes there have been blow-outs where she has been plastered but it's pretty rare.

I've decided to have a sit down with her, whether she likes it or not, and layout my concerns about her drinking, her new job pressures, the pressure of international travel - something she hasn't done before, the potential for another A; all of it. I know what the response will be but I'm putting it out there yet again.

She has always said that her drinking is the only way she can calm her mind. She uses alcohol to wind down but just takes it too far. If it was two drinks per evening no worries but it is triple that.


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## SadSamIAm

Horizon said:


> She doesn't touch a drop during the day except on those odd occasions when she has a catch up with the girlfriends (on a weekend - usually only 3-4 times each year). Sometimes there have been blow-outs where she has been plastered but it's pretty rare.
> 
> I've decided to have a sit down with her, whether she likes it or not, and layout my concerns about her drinking, her new job pressures, the pressure of international travel - something she hasn't done before, the potential for another A; all of it. I know what the response will be but I'm putting it out there yet again.
> 
> She has always said that her drinking is the only way she can calm her mind. She uses alcohol to wind down but just takes it too far. If it was two drinks per evening no worries but it is triple that.


Two drinks per evening are not acceptable. A person shouldn't need any alcohol/drug to 'wind down'. If they do, then they have a problem.


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## Wazza

Keep the drinking in perspective. I don't think anyone is saying it is a good thing, but there is a range of view on how bad it is.

Is it something you are willing to end the relationship over? You are getting conflicting advice here, and none of us are necessarily experts. You have to decide.


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## Acabado

She's a full blown alcoholic, not a single drink is acceptable anymore.
If she gets sober she might reach, someday, the conditions to become a partner.
Meanwhile imagining any kind of R is a futile exercise.


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## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> She doesn't touch a drop during the day except on those odd occasions when she has a catch up with the girlfriends (on a weekend - usually only 3-4 times each year). Sometimes there have been blow-outs where she has been plastered but it's pretty rare.
> 
> 
> I've decided to have a sit down with her, whether she likes it or not, and layout my concerns about her drinking, her new job pressures, the pressure of international travel - something she hasn't done before, the potential for another A; all of it. I know what the response will be but I'm putting it out there yet again.
> 
> She has always said that her drinking is the only way she can calm her mind. She uses alcohol to wind down but just takes it too far. If it was two drinks per evening no worries but it is triple that.


Doesn't matter Horizon, she is still, even though her BAC would be normal during the day, mentally and emotionally inebriated. Her moods, the way she sees things, insight, sense of fairness, love, affection, her ability to focus and stay present are all affected profoundly. Do some research on the effects of long term alcohol abuse and its effects on relationships and mental health, there is plenty out there. 

I won't even get into what it is doing to her on a physical level. 

Until she gets completely sober, she can never see what it is you want her to see. Therefore your efforts to repair this relationship are hopeless. Unless she gets sober. Completely sober that is.


Don't get me wrong, I feel for her I really do. I know of the need to drink to cope with life. I know how she is feeling and where she is at. 

I understand how you love her, want to help her and recover your relationship with the mother of your children.

But you can't, quite simply because you are not her friend, partner, lover or support. 

The bottle is.


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## Horizon

The one earning all the bucks is the most fragile. If she falls in a heap we are f**ked no matter what dollars I earn. That's a big part of the fear, that at some point she will collapse and financially we're cactus. Even with income protection.

Another pair of new shoes arrives, another parcel with some top or other shows up, something for the children they don't really need....it never stops. Spending is another addiction and a means for her to exert independence somehow "no one tells me what to do with my money". 

Here am I Mr Frugal and she just ignores my calls for restraint - even with the trip coming up and my calls for putting some dosh aside for excursions etc whatever and even when she agreed to cut back it still continues. Even when I look her in the face and say "You just wont take on board what I'm saying, I'm asking you to just turn the tap off for a while...." Nothing.

Have I mentioned the pills? She has always been a pill popper supreme. I grew up only taking drugs as prescribed or handed out by Mum. Even as an adult I am frugal with pills. Not my WS. She has had a steady stream of pills since I've known her. Mersyndal for migraines, copious amounts of pain relief tablets, Ibprofun etc. Whenever a big box of Cold & Flu tablets were in the drawer they'd be gone in a few weeks. My question to the whereabouts always met with "I didn't take them all" BS! the night time ones which knock you out always disappearing first.

Our whole family is recovering from this wicked flu virus that has been doing the rounds this winter. Now she has been struck down by a chest infection. She is on a large dose of anti-biotics but did that curtail the drinking? NO. I made a remark about the fact that she should not be drinking and taking anti_B's and she replied - "It doesn't say not to drink on the packet". It's the same story from years ago whenever she had a virus. Not beyond defaulting to naivety when needed. 

I can't get through to her people - I'm thinking that because I am fixed on making this trip away a great time for my family that I pick a time on our return and just say OK, you have to get underway with some type of plan to recover from your alcoholism or we are done. If I get stuck into her now with the new job etc it will just create a bad vibe until we leave. You may disagree with me but I have to be patient. There is so much at stake as you well know.


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## Wazza

Have you discussed balancing two careers and child care? What was the outcome?


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## Horizon

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Doesn't matter Horizon, she is still, even though her BAC would be normal during the day, mentally and emotionally inebriated. Her moods, the way she sees things, insight, sense of fairness, love, affection, her ability to focus and stay present are all affected profoundly. Do some research on the effects of long term alcohol abuse and its effects on relationships and mental health, there is plenty out there.
> 
> I won't even get into what it is doing to her on a physical level.
> 
> Until she gets completely sober, she can never see what it is you want her to see. Therefore your efforts to repair this relationship are hopeless. Unless she gets sober. Completely sober that is.
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I feel for her I really do. I know of the need to drink to cope with life. I know how she is feeling and where she is at.
> 
> I understand how you love her, want to help her and recover your relationship with the mother of your children.
> 
> But you can't, quite simply because you are not her friend, partner, lover or support.
> 
> The bottle is.


I appreciate this BA7, I appreciate everyone's input. I know this is a massive saga but it has to be played out. She thinks her drinking is normal, it's sad to watch. It is only since DDay that I have looked again at what I already knew about her drinking and her other addictions. It is terrible to be in a such a helpless position and then be attacked for bringing up that old drinking issue. To think that part of this process means that I will probably have to watch her crash and burn or the possibility of a slow descent into a life ruined by alcohol with me as the carer. The whole thing doesn't bear thinking about but think about it I must.


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## the guy

I feel sorry for the poeple around you and care about you, as they watch you get defined by this women.
What an example you are!


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## the guy

You sir have grace above all else!


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## Horizon

the guy said:


> I feel sorry for the poeple around you and care about you, as they watch you get defined by this women.
> What an example you are!


No one knows she has a drinking problem.


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## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> I appreciate this BA7, I appreciate everyone's input. I know this is a massive saga but it has to be played out. She thinks her drinking is normal, it's sad to watch. It is only since DDay that I have looked again at what I already knew about her drinking and her other addictions. It is terrible to be in a such a helpless position and then be attacked for bringing up that old drinking issue. To think that part of this process means that I will probably have to watch her crash and burn or the possibility of a slow descent into a life ruined by alcohol with me as the carer. The whole thing doesn't bear thinking about but think about it I must.




I'm sorry if you felt you were being attacked. That certainly was not my intention. It's just that your situation hits very close to home for me. I was in a very similar position to your wife a few years ago. Although I didn't have an affair. I was in a high paying, respected career. Trying to cope with that and a large family and other more personal issues, I found it increasingly hard to cope without some sort of crutch to get me through the days. 

My family needed me and I wasn't there for them, the more I depended on a crutch, the less I was available to them, the less I was available to them, the more I needed a crutch to cope with that barely recognisable understanding.

I heard nothing my partner was saying. I justified everything in my own mind. Every single thing. To not do so would mean tearing down walls, when I had little emotional or mental strength to cope with life as it was anyway.

I now know how very lost I was and how I treated my family. 

Your despair is what I recognise my family and partner was in at that time. I feel for you both so much, but I also know how hopeless it is unless she gets some serious, serious intervention. 

While she has numerous addictions, these are all her supports, her crutches to help her cope with her life. She can never see the way clear to a normal stable life with you until these addictions are gone, or at least until she is has worked a long way towards them being gone.

She will never be able to hear or see your perspective on anything, because her defences are fortresses, biochemically altered and shored up by alcohol and the other drugs that she consumes. 

This is what I wanted you to see and I sincerely apologise if you felt attacked personally.


I understand your fear. You have so much to do to protect your children and maintain a stable life for yourself and them. 
I understand your hesitancy and the need to work through the process that you see ahead. 

As long as you are going into it with your eyes wide open and with full awareness of her inability to change while she has no recognition that she has a problem, then who am I to say otherwise?

If it is your plan to stay with her as her caretaker, then let her be. Don't try and make her see reason over anything that she is doing that is "wrong". It only stresses her more and drives her to her bottled best friend and support. It stresses you and the kids also. Her job is where she shines, (I shone there too, got promotions etc) and you are obviously concerned about family finances and the ability to maintain your lifestyle. So in effect, if this is your choice, then facilitate that as much as you are able to tolerate. 
This means not denouncing her if she doesn't see things how you see them. She can't see them that way for the reasons I have outlined. 

But how are you going to take care of yourself? You need some respite, someone to offload on. You can do it here. Will that be enough? What will you do with the anger and rage that you will surely have a right to feel and express appropriately somewhere? You really need someone on the ground as a support. A friend? What about Al-Anon? I know you said in a PP you were able to talk to your mum. Can you offload more on her? Would she be able to see where you are coming from by you being your partner's caretaker in effect?

What will you do if she escapes from her demons in another affair? Will that be where you draw the line in the sand? 
This may happen. If it does, do you have an exit strategy and finances available to move forward with yours and your kids lives? Are you the healthiest that you are able to be? At least for them if not for yourself.

I hope one day she realises the treasure she has in you.


I wish you the best and sincerely hope you enjoy your family holiday!


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## Northern Monkey

Hey horizon. Just caught up.

I just think you need to step back still and should be fully focussing on your ability to stand as an individual in your own right at the moment.

Forget all this R nonsense for a bit. I say nonsense as you don't feel she is genuine so that's what it is. As false an R as could imagined. 

I've asked before and I know you do think about it but who are you. You don't seem any closer to an answer. Until you can answer it in a way that does not relate to her.. how can you worry about the relationship.

Rhetorical. I know how, been there myself but the point stands.

Seems to me under the drama and insecurity, there is a stand up guy. When was the last time he got some fresh air? Let him out!


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## Nucking Futs

Northern Monkey said:


> Hey horizon. Just caught up.
> 
> I just think you need to step back still and should be fully focussing on your ability to stand as an individual in your own right at the moment.
> 
> Forget all this R nonsense for a bit. I say nonsense as you don't feel she is genuine so that's what it is. As false an R as could imagined.
> 
> I've asked before and I know you do think about it but who are you. You don't seem any closer to an answer. Until you can answer it in a way that does not relate to her.. how can you worry about the relationship.
> 
> Rhetorical. I know how, been there myself but the point stands.
> 
> Seems to me under the drama and insecurity, there is a stand up guy. When was the last time he got some fresh air? Let him out!


He's right. You're way too focused on her and not focused enough on yourself. You need to do the 180, not as a way to manipulate her, just as a way to distance yourself from the impending train wreck. 

You can't save her. You can't even help her save herself until she wants to save herself. Nothing you say to her will change her self destructive behavior. At this point it's likely only making matters worse.

You need to be focusing like a laser on improving _your_ situation. Forget the trip. It's not going to help matters. 

When she crashes, and she will, you're going to be the sole support for your children. You need to be finding your next job.


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## turnera

Horizon said:


> No one knows she has a drinking problem.


 Then tell her family. Stage an intervention. Tell her she gets help or you're gone.

And please stop putting this trip above all else. You're going to be miserable on the trip anyway, and have wasted 6 months for nothing.


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## turnera

Start going to Alanon, for yourself. It will help you figure out what to do.


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## Horizon

Why I can't trust her, why I feel waves of revulsion and contempt, why I am still building resentment -

She has never acknowledged the depth of her connection with the OM. She resented that I took action to put an end to it and portrayed my action as an example of me yet again taking control. Turned a natural reaction on a betrayed man's part into an attack on his character. Blame blame blame.

She categorically states that what I read in all the e-mails and texts was fantasy. (Totally outrageous, completely unbelievable - a wicked evil lie backed up consistently by "You weren't there, you don't know what happened, you've put your own spin on it, as you well know e-mails can be deceiving")

She completely replaced me with another man while, despite our relationship stasis, did just enough to maintain the illusion that we were still in a relationship. She utterly tricked me.

She committed sexual acts with a man that she has never given to me, she described that POS in intimately and flattering ways that she has never used to describe me - ever, even in the early days.

She has refused to be open with me on any level about the depth of their connection and maintains there was no "depth" to it. She will not open a forum for me to ask the most basic questions. She used my early anger as a reason to avoid discussion. Some early, post DDay questions were met with " I can't remember"

"How did you f**k in his car?" - "I don't remember"

Why am I doing this? Because I have been sick for a week, so sick that I thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I have completely lost interest in everything and I am sick as well. I am doing just enough to get the children to school and to sport etc. I can barely look her in the face. When she asked me last night why was I so angry I could only manage "Do I have to spell it out for you?"

I'm sick and pi**ed off - I'm starting to resent the very f**king ground she walks on.

I have been left with this scar for the rest of my life. Even if I give her the punt I will always have to ware it. But if I just get over it all be OK. Simple. BS!

But if I really take care of myself and read MMSLP and lift my rating I'll be hot sh!t. F**k that! What? Are all those men & women out there who are over 50, and look it, just sitting ducks to be cheated on? Loyalty, what a concept.


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## carpenoctem

Horizon said:


> *Are all those men & women out there who are over 50, and look it, just sitting ducks to be cheated on? *


sad prognosis for life, isn't it?

maybe, just as all of us have no choice but to accept the frailties that accompany our elderly years, we also will have to learn to accept the disloyalty of our spouses with equanimity, as a sine qua non of human sexuality. And it works across both genders.

so hard, but.


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## "joe"

horizon, your post #1201 tells alot of truths. i'm also over 50 and also will have to wear this scar forever. my wife also deceived me, doing enough to give the impression that we had a stable life and then jumped when she was ready, and it was like pulling teeth to get her to acknowledge the deceit ("i'm not proud of it!", she actually said that). there will be no completely getting over it. i can't take any interest in anything. i'm still in a nervous-breakdown state. like you say, advice to "just get over it" is simpleminded. the hardest thing is that we still carry an emotional attachment for someone who is objectively a moral bankrupt. i loved being married, even if the marriage wasn't always happy, and i want my marriage back, even if it's totally gone.

the best thing about this board is to know that others have been exactly in the same situation. that knowledge by itself won't cure our pain, but we're the ones in the right, the decent people, as everyone here knows.


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## turnera

I'm 55. My DH is 58. We still have a LOT of life ahead of us (DD22 is just out of college, now it's our turn). And there are millions of single women our age who only want one thing - an honest, respectable man who will treat her well and be loyal to her, too.

Once you do those things, read the books, start taking care of yourself, get a job, you'll be pushing women away.

You deserve better than this, ok? And your kids will benefit, too.


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## toonaive

turnera said:


> I'm 55. My DH is 58. We still have a LOT of life ahead of us (DD22 is just out of college, now it's our turn). And there are millions of single women our age who only want one thing - an honest, respectable man who will treat her well and be loyal to her, too.
> 
> Once you do those things, read the books, start taking care of yourself, get a job, you'll be pushing women away.
> 
> You deserve better than this, ok? And your kids will benefit, too.


Horizon, what turnera says is very true. Keep looking ahead, pushing forward for what you need and want. Things will turn around for you. I just turned 50, and after everything my AxW put me through over the past 10 years,(23 total) I thought I was too old and broken down to even consider much of a future. A mere shell of the man I was 20 years ago. Not so!! What I have realized over the past 2 years, is that I am better than I ever was! You will be too! She did not get the best of you.


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## "joe"

turnera said:


> And there are millions of single women our age who only want one thing - an honest, respectable man who will treat her well and be loyal to her, too.


i've had three persons, all women, assure me that i'm "young" (b/c i'm a man) and will meet someone. but where is this cohort of single 50 year old women who want relationship? i'm in no state yet, but match.com didn't look promising.


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## cpacan

Horizon; try to visualize what you want from life - if you could design your very own path and destination - what would it look like?

Here's the rub... you must do this without including your wife in the vision, not even a small fragment of her.

I tried that and it made wonders to me. I imagine i'll do something I like doing for a living. I imagine supporting my kids in growing up to be loving, lovable and decent adults. I also imagine living my senior years with a woman, one to talk to, one to care about and one who cares about me. Wonderful vision, isn't it?

I came to realize that I can have all these things without my wife. Once I realized this I was able to relax a bit more and take care of myself. It simply means that I can leave whenever I choose to do so to create my life vision. It's a powerfull vision and belief.


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## turnera

"joe" said:


> i've had three persons, all women, assure me that i'm "young" (b/c i'm a man) and will meet someone. but where is this cohort of single 50 year old women who want relationship? i'm in no state yet, but match.com didn't look promising.


 Women want to meet a man in a real setting, not a hookup one. Get out of your house and start living life. Take classes, join a group/club for your hobby, volunteer, join a bowling league, tutor kids at a school, go jogging/skating, go to the grocery store more, join a tennis team...the possibilities are endless.

This is a great place to start: Events and Adventures


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## Horizon

I do not choose to be up at 2am, sick and pi**ed off but here I am.

Why must I be cast as the person holding on to the sh!t? I didn't ask for this and I don't deserve it but, that's right, life is so unfair.

I crawled around to our local supermarket yesterday. The lady serving me in the Deli looked very familiar - I absolutely never forget a face; Like a few in recent years who I have not seen since they were 16 but forty years later still recognise without fail.

The name evaded me. She agreed that she went to the same high school, yes she was born in the same year - "We were in the same class" I said. She didn't recognise me but I wasn't offended. She revealed her maiden name and it confirmed it for me, I even remembered where she sat in English. But she didn't recall that either.

A feint smile crossed her face as she served me. She told me her married name and I remembered somewhat vaguely the family of 8 boys her husband was from - ex husband.

I smiled at her and said "See you again" - I had to move quick because I felt like I was going to cry. Something that happens nearly everyday now. That poor woman was the same age as me and she looked totally defeated. She even had a kind of stoop as she trudged over to wrap the fish.

I suppose I'm just feeling fragile but if ever anyone looked like they deserved a hug it was her - that face in the classroom you never really get to know.

I don't hate my WS, I don't do hate very well. Even if she could feel what I feel it wouldn't make any difference. It's my thing to sort out.

Footnote: My WS can only express affection in small ways. While I have been unwell she has been very attentive and asked me many times if there is anything she can do, or get me. Last night as I went to climb into a hot bath she asked me yet again if there was anything she could do - "How about a blow job?" I said. A sour expression crossed her face. "You did ask" I lamely called. Man I could have really used that BJ. What the hell, it's only been....how long has it been now?.....seriously, I can't remember.


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## badmemory

Horizon said:


> "How about a blow job?" I said. A sour expression crossed her face. "You did ask" I lamely called. Man I could have really used that BJ. What the hell, it's only been....how long has it been now?.....seriously, I can't remember.


Horizon,

I'd have to laugh if this wasn't so sad. Week after week you document the lack of remorse she displays; and add another chapter to your sad story.

When, just when, will you divorce this woman?


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## alte Dame

You know, H., my mother died quite suddenly at age 48 from an undiagnosed heart problem. My father, who was 51 at the time, fell apart. Completely and for years. Their relationship wasn't the way you describe yours. Their love was the stuff of legend in our community (we won't talk about Dad's ONS's that I found out about later and that he said meant 'less than nothing').

When I say that my father was a broken man after her death, that is an understatement. I had to forcibly find him an apartment, decorate it for him, actually buy him a TV so he wouldn't sit alone crying all evening and then force-marched him into small activities in the neighborhood - a volunteer group here, a church group there.

After a few years, my father had reinvented his life, albeit never as joyful as it had been by his own constant admission, but he did it. He had one completely disastrous marriage to an alcoholic and then another to a much younger woman. He had professional ups and downs and lonely periods and had to restructure a life that, when all was said and done, he didn't really want. When he had a few drinks in him, he confessed that all he really wanted was my mother back.

But he slogged on and tried to live each day. He loved his grandchildren and his new wife (a nice but relatively stupid woman).

He never lost his sense of complete and utter indignation over what fate had brought him. By all rights, he would sometimes thunder, his W should be by his side. His pride told him that he didn't deserve to lose the love of his life. Just look at all the cr*ppy people out there in the world cheating and robbing - why should he lose his W? Where was the justice?

So you rail and are furious, H. You are indignant that you are facing this fate. You take baby steps to help yourself cope, all the while raging at the injustice.

For me, the rage will push you eventually to do what you need to do. And your pride will hold you in good stead. My father became much more emotionally independent and was able to revisit his memories with less pain. For you, H., I think you need to take your indignation at your WW's insolence and let it fuel each step you take for your own renewal. It sounds corny, perhaps, but you need to fight your way out of this box you've put yourself in. You have the fire to do it. You just have to keep taking those small steps. Don't waver.


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## Horizon

"Yet again, I find myself in the situation where you can barely look at me, let alone have a conversation with me. You address all of your comments currently to the kids or the animals and refuse to discuss or hear anything I have to say.

Why are we back here again and why are you being so difficult to communicate with. What is the problem!!!! In case you haven’t noticed, I have been unwell as has .......... and yourself. .......... and I got on to the antibiotics and started to improve quite quickly, with you – you have been unwell for almost two weeks, but have refused to do anything about it – I DON’T GET IT and now somehow I AM THE BAD GUY AGAIN.

I don’t know what is going on and I don’t know what you want me to do – you won’t talk, you won’t listen you just shut me out and I have been trying to help – even though I have felt like sh*t.

I DON’T GET IT – please stop treating me like this!"

I get her sending this to me today. I didn't bother replying, I just couldn't do it. We said hello when she came home, that was enough. She knows I read it. I couldn't be bothered arguing. (I'm following Docs instructions re starting a round of anti-b's but let's not let that fact interrupt the flow)

However, I don't get how she can act as though there is some other mysterious reason for my pissedoffedness. It's like she has completely deleted her affair and I am just this narky annoying partner who has theses inexplicable mood swings which upsets the household.

It's really hard to carry on like all is normal when all is not normal - all is normal for her.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> Why are we back here again.......?


She has a point. Why are you back there again?




> However, I don't get how she can act as though there is some other mysterious reason for my pissedoffedness


Really? You still don't know? 

Or are you just blowing of steam?

In which case it's all good.


----------



## Decorum

The unintended consequences of these small steps (little swipes and frequent kicks) may be to irreparably damage any chance you have of saving this, as you give her more reason to feel that it is unworkable.

But in the end divorced is divorced.

Begging for a blow job, that really gets the juices flowing.
Seriously!

But you are sick, maybe you will do better when you are well.


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## turnera

Horizon said:


> It's like she has completely deleted her affair and I am just this narky annoying partner who has theses inexplicable mood swings which upsets the household.


Well, let's be fair here, Horizon. You're not exactly saying it to her face, not calling her out, not laying it at her feet. All you can say is 'you know!' and expect that to be enough.

Be brave enough to look her in the face and say 'you're not remorseful, you're rugsweeping, and I'm not sure if I can stay in this marriage with your low level of making up for what you did to me.'


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



turnera said:


> I'm 55. My DH is 58. We still have a LOT of life ahead of us (DD22 is just out of college, now it's our turn). And there are millions of single women our age who only want one thing - an honest, respectable man who will treat her well and be loyal to her, too.
> 
> Once you do those things, read the books, start taking care of yourself, get a job, you'll be pushing women away.
> 
> You deserve better than this, ok? And your kids will benefit, too.


My wife had so many friends that are widowed, single after divorces or concentrated on their careers so much they never had time to develop lasting relationships. They would love a man to be with. She tells her friend's that I'm available to hire out but they couldn't afford me.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



turnera said:


> Women want to meet a man in a real setting, not a hookup one. Get out of your house and start living life. Take classes, join a group/club for your hobby, volunteer, join a bowling league, tutor kids at a school, go jogging/skating, go to the grocery store more, join a tennis team...the possibilities are endless.
> 
> This is a great place to start: Events and Adventures


So true. Nobody wants to be with someone who sits on their computer all day waiting for the doorbell to ring.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



badmemory said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I'd have to laugh if this wasn't so sad. Week after week you document the lack of remorse she displays; and add another chapter to your sad story.
> 
> When, just when, will you divorce this woman?


What I find sad is that if I said that line to my wife she would laugh and have an equally snappy comeback. But Horizon gets a sour puss because their relationship is rocky. But the saddest thing I see is knowing the reaction ahead of time he continues to put himself out there for rejection. It's like he's feeding off the negativity and purposefully subjecting himself to the rejection. I just don't get it.


----------



## turnera

And then asking for a BJ he knows he won't get. Sad.


----------



## warlock07

if your wife was so emotionally capable, you wouldn't be here in the first place...Looks like what she can do for you and what you want are on different planets. She is probably trying something in her own f*cked up way and she doesn't have enough motivation to make any major change. She is far too powerful in this relationship and she is used to it..


----------



## Horizon

It's Father's Day today and there was some mention of hand relief. However this is unlikely to eventuate based on years of zero outcomes.

Not unexpectedly I suppose, I have for the first time lost any idea of expectation. I was not even excited by the possibility though I would obviously participate were something to happen.

In a strange way I feel a kind of sadness, not much but a bit, mixed with a certain amount of sentiment. As though I am finally saying goodbye to what ever it was that we had. I can't even think what we had come to think of it. 

We had a great family lunch with both Mum's and a family friend at a club where I grew up, a really beaut afternoon but I felt virtually no connection with her at all - sort of a friendship.

It's like the 180 is running itself. Kind of bothers me but I could really see the end of us today.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon I wish you were a troll. (I know you are not)

I just don't want to believe that I read what I just read.


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> Horizon I wish you were a troll. (I know you are not)
> 
> I just don't want to believe that I read what I just read.


Yeah, it's pathetic. the sex thing has been something I have perhaps put too much store in. It has always been a big deal for me as though it defines me. I think it is where I have truly felt most successful - so for it to be virtually non-existent in my life is tough to accept let alone get used to. 

The hand relief was probably a bit of a lame joke on either side and I was expressing the futility of it here, as though that was the final ember of that particular part of our lives. I have no say in it at all, it has nothing to do with what I might want or need. We are just co-existing and I am increasingly accepting that sex is, as I said, virtually non- existent.

You wish I were a troll? Me to!


----------



## Nucking Futs

I hope you didn't ask her for a hand job, or anything else. You should be deep in the 180.

How's the job coming? Are you back to work or still sick?


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Yeah, it's pathetic. the sex thing has been something I have perhaps put too much store in. It has always been a big deal for me as though it defines me. I think it is where I have truly felt most successful - so for it to be virtually non-existent in my life is tough to accept let alone get used to.
> 
> The hand relief was probably a bit of a lame joke on either side and I was expressing the futility of it here, as though that was the final ember of that particular part of our lives. I have no say in it at all, it has nothing to do with what I might want or need. We are just co-existing and I am increasingly accepting that sex is, as I said, virtually non- existent.
> 
> You wish I were a troll? Me to!


Make it existent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

No, the sex thing has become a bit of a joke, if ever mentioned which is just about never. Definitely have given up seeking any physical fulfillment from her.

Amazing how the juices got flowing when some strange popped their head up. Then all that was dormant woke up. Just not for me.

Work is very frustrating. I am still waiting to here about the driving job so I have decided to "harass" them again today. I have been given more casual driving this week but it is really just pocket money. 

Glad to have kicked this flu bug but I tell you this cough does not want to let me go. Bastard of a thing.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> You wish I were a troll? Me to!


Ha ha, well said Horizon.

I'm glad it was a lame joke, otherwise it would be really sad.

My wife and I had a rough patch where our intimacy dropped to zero.

She actually offered me pity sex (didnt call it that at that time), we were working through some things but she is a decent woman.

I was repulsed at the thought of having sex under those conditions and I never took her up on it.

But you say that it is the one thing you were good at, man your self exteem is smashed. Sex would help but you can make some improvement by behaving differently, it seems pointless but it really makes a difference.

I do wish you well, let me know when you post somthing, "tongue in cheek" so to speak (sorry), that way I won't get so red faced,  ha ha 
Take care.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> No, the sex thing has become a bit of a joke, if ever mentioned which is just about never. Definitely have given up seeking any physical fulfillment from her.
> 
> Amazing how the juices got flowing when some strange popped their head up. Then all that was dormant woke up. Just not for me.
> 
> Work is very frustrating. I am still waiting to here about the driving job so I have decided to "harass" them again today. I have been given more casual driving this week but it is really just pocket money.
> 
> Glad to have kicked this flu bug but I tell you this cough does not want to let me go. Bastard of a thing.


With her it's likely dead unless she had a near death experience. There's life outside of your situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Makes me wonder. I'm sick of this life that's for sure.

That f**king ***** BGF of hers keeps up a steady flow of Channing Tatum pics. Even on f**king Father's Day.

"You know what I like" she replied. F**king facebook, makes me sick to the stomach.

It's all a big f**king joke, just a bit of fun. My WS idolises youth - Tatum, that other favorite of hers Joe Mangioitalian or whatever the f**k he's called. That whole Magic Mike crew. F**k 'em!

Help me put this in perspective - I get the eye candy bizzo but this just sh!ts me because it is so incessant - pics of young hunks repeated every week or so, plus I'm fragile much.

Nothing wrong with it but....there is something wrong with it. I'm not normally jealous but I can't compete with that fantasy. I reckon it's all part of the same mix - 50 Shades of Stupidity, Bodice Rippers, Eye Candy hand arounds among GF's, all that sh!t. 

Just the right motivation - get as close to that eye candy ideal as I can with some POS who kind of fits the mold. Yeah I'm f**ked up tonight, thanks darling you....


----------



## turnera

She's trying to recreate her youth but doing it the way she really wanted to - being open about her sexuality. Except with you, of course. You're safe and she thinks she'll never leave you. So she doesn't waste effort on you.


----------



## Decorum

He is drunk posting.


----------



## Horizon

I am fighting depression, worthlessness. I have to do this on my own. I will beat it. I just don't need this sh!t - "how are you feeling....?" she says, for fu**ks sake!


----------



## LostViking

Your wife is a sick person. Mentally and morally. You red to decide if you are going to continue letting her drag you into hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> I am fighting depression, worthlessness. I have to do this on my own. I will beat it. I just don't need this sh!t - "how are you feeling....?" she says, for fu**ks sake!


Don't let her see you depressed. Be happy in her presence, even if you have to do an oscar worthy performance. Don't show her your depression or anger. 

Fake it 'til you make it.

Also, don't get too focused on the driving job. If you don't have it yet you should still be going all out to get something. Any job is better than what you have now, and no job is too dirty. Except politics.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> I am fighting depression, worthlessness. I have to do this on my own. I will beat it. I just don't need this sh!t - "how are you feeling....?" she says, for fu**ks sake!


Have you been drinking?


----------



## Horizon

I'm not much of a drinker - 1 or 2 a night. I wasn't smashed when I posted, just mightily frustrated and pi**ed off. The cat gets more affection around here - seriously. In fact tonight as a joke I answered the phone using the cat's name "Hello, this is Puss Puss speaking" My MIL laughed down the line. I was getting a little sarcastic tonight about the younger male cat - kitty this kitty that - JAYZUS!!!!. The older cat is a female and she mostly keeps to herself. It's all part of the mix - depressive feelings and this bloody cat as the centre of attention just about does my head in some nights.


----------



## turnera

Do something about it. GAL.


----------



## Decorum

Its been a while since I have looked at the information but I believe that the depressive effects of alcohol last several days, so even though you are not drunk its working against you.

If you don't mind me asking I forget are you on meds for your depression?


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> Its been a while since I have looked at the information but I believe that the depressive effects of alcohol last several days, so even though you are not drunk its working against you.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking I forget are you on meds for your depression?


Yes, Pristiq - seems to work OK, keeps the rare rages and Dad nuttiness at bay. Though my children love my nuttiness. I think I'm a bit like my father - an un-diagnosed bi-polar. I'm certain I have elements of that, highs & lows but not massive extremes. So the drugs keep me pretty level. I have to confess that, as with last night, I forget to take my meds occasionally. It happens sometimes - anyway, back to the gym at last after 2 weeks of illness.


----------



## Decorum

Good for you, keep making healthy choices. lympic1:
And don't forget your meds!


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> I am fighting depression, worthlessness. I have to do this on my own. I will beat it. I just don't need this sh!t - "how are you feeling....?" she says, for fu**ks sake!


You gotta set some goals for yourself. Without a direction you will be dragged into her stuff and will follow her emotional response to you. It's not good at all. You need to be looking at and working another direction.


----------



## Horizon

Dead right T, as I experienced today. Big mistake - as I have been sex starved for so long I weakened and made reference to some physical intimacy by recommending that she set a date.

The playful joking and brief communication went like this....

"No"

"Come on, you know you want to"

"No I don't"

"You don't, want to lock something in?"

"No, I don't have to"

(pause) "OK, talk later"

Message received loud and clear. Stupid me, I regressed. Anyway it was brief - humiliating but brief. Onward & upward!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Dead right T, as I experienced today. Big mistake - as I have been sex starved for so long I weakened and made reference to some physical intimacy by recommending that she set a date.
> 
> The playful joking and brief communication went like this....
> 
> "No"
> 
> "Come on, you know you want to"
> 
> "No I don't"
> 
> "You don't, want to lock something in?"
> 
> "No, I don't have to"
> 
> (pause) "OK, talk later"
> 
> Message received loud and clear. Stupid me, I regressed. Anyway it was brief - humiliating but brief. Onward & upward!


I had a long reply typed out, but I deleted it. There's no point trying to help someone who rejects all help and continues the self destructive behavior. 

I'm beginning to agree with the other posters who say you don't really want to fix this, you get off on her humiliating you. 

:banghead:


----------



## Decorum

Nucking Futs said:


> you get off on her humiliating you.
> 
> :banghead:


:iagree:

That's it, I could not quite put it into words, but that's it!

You're a sick puppy horizon, you act like you think you deserve this.

And you come on here for a second helping!

It's self mutilation vs healthy choices.

Unsubscribing, I'm not going to feed the beast anymore.

I wish you well!


----------



## Acabado

C'mon man, stop beggin her for sex.


----------



## Racer

I’ll try and stick with you Horizon. Why is it humiliating? The answer lies in the simple fact that you actually give a sh1t whether or not she desires you. DETACH!!! I can not stress to you how important it is to cut that emotional hose you’ve attached to your wife. It is sucking your life right out of you.

You are like this little puppy who, no matter how much you get beaten, continues to whine and try to get attention. I can almost imagine you in a maid outfit with a pretty bow in your head greeting her as she gets home from work just hoping she’d smile and give you a kiss before asking ‘what’s for dinner dear?’. Then being shocked when she laughs her ass off, takes a pic and humiliates you on the internetz. It is long past time for you to learn how to get that emotional fulfillment internally instead through others like your wife or us. We can't be relied on for that, but you can rely on yourself.

Desire. How do you feel desired? Does it really have to come from her or isn’t it really you just want it to come from her? What if ‘the woman in red’ gives you ‘the look’ as you pass by? Do you notice it? Doesn’t that interpret as she found something about you desirable? You don’t have to get laid to see that sort of thing around you. Start doing Mom’s Day out (stay at home if I remember right).... meet people, start connecting with others. Shockingly, I doubt they will be disgusted by you. Be you and just enjoy being around others. Even that beaten puppy likes playing with other dogs. 

Start doing ‘stuff’ that isn’t about your wife at all and allows you to actually feel good doing it. Learn to enjoy life and what it has to offer. It does not have to come from your wife. I don’t care if she might get pissed about it... What’s she gonna do? Get mean? Have a affair? You can handle that and already have..... You can handle a lot more than you give yourself credit for. Stop whining, start living.


----------



## Horizon

I will be seeking professional help for my masochistic need to bask in humiliation. I'm pretty sure it is all rooted in my childhood of being abused & humiliated by my Father. The physical pain from beatings and the psychological warfare on my siblings and myself has obviously not been dealt with as I thought. I thought I had come to terms with it even though one of my older brothers and I are the only ones who ever discuss the abuse - let alone the depraved acts he committed against two of his gran daughters when he was well past 70 yrs of age. 

On pedophilia - this is another aspect of the cheating which destroyed me. I had to face this reality about my father from 2004. Knowing from one of my gran daughters what he had done to her over more than 10 years and watching the other gran daughter vehemently pursue denial. Watching my oldest brother excommunicated, even by his own twin and rejected by his own mother, while the others came in firmly behind a monster who escaped conviction.

Me being the only member of the family who sat firmly in the middle to be there for a brother but no wanting to lose that bond with my greater family. To be viewed with suspicion by my blindly loyal family because I will not let my older brother be forgotten. In all this emotional turmoil, years of it, raising my children - in all this my WS decided to betray me. It feels like a double betrayal if you know what I mean.

All because of my Fathers's depraved acts. How do I know how my WS views me in light of this broken family and the disgusting things that went on, let alone how we were treated as children. Damaged goods? In this pressure cooker and with a failing relationship she cheated - there's the answer to life's woes!

But yes, I do humiliation - like a failed relationship, we just can't say goodbye to each other. I will seek help because you are right - I am really f**ked up far worse than I thought. I am getting off on it. 

When I was a little fella my father once slowly poured a jug of water over my head when I spoke back or made some smart arse kid remark. I would have been 9 or 10. I clearly, even now, literally remember the deliberate humiliation in front of my brothers. Maybe it started then. 

Or maybe it was when he cut a length of garden hose off with a razor blade and beat our legs so hard the welts were frightening. Later our friend next door remarked about the damage as we stood out the front playing around. We laughed it off - it was a horrific, brutal site but well had we learned form our Mother, who could not or would not protect us,to say nothing - to rug sweep.

Maybe it was being forced to eat Weetbix with warm water because there was no milk or to have that collection of sports cards so slowly and lovingly built up over months and so coveted, randomly distributed to other siblings as a form of punishment. The collection destroyed - a child's possessions not his possessions at all. Anything can be taken and given away or obliterated at a whim.

I haven't got over it - I have tied to function like all the other drones, be normal. It's a farce, a rolled gold farce. My father has created a family of misfits. We try very hard to be normal and mostly we succeed but my God there is a price to pay. 

I have to seek professional help because I am still looking at the world as though it is this nasty corrosive hell that is made up of people pretending to be nice. No wonder drink and do drugs are so popular. The whole joint is f**ked up.

I must keep functioning for the sake of my children. Thanks for your input and if anything at least I got to know a bit more about me. Truth hurts but at least it is something real, something to work on. I'm going to take a break from all this for a while - thanks.


----------



## Horizon

PS: didn't get the job. The modern world of employment prevails - you update your resume', get dolled up, rock up, later get told you are on the short list and then nothing. You have to chase them down to be told you didn't get the job. In the old days people treated you with respect and went to the trouble to let know either by letter or by phone. Not anymore - f**k you is the mentality. And to think these people doing the interviews were my age or older. But I dare not complain or that chance that they want me down the line will be burnt. Shut up, get on with it. Next.

That's it for a while - goodbye & best wishes, Horizon.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> PS: didn't get the job. The modern world of employment prevails - you update your resume', get dolled up, rock up, later get told you are on the short list and then nothing. You have to chase them down to be told you didn't get the job. In the old days people treated you with respect and went to the trouble to let know either by letter or by phone. Not anymore - f**k you is the mentality. And to think these people doing the interviews were my age or older. But I dare not complain or that chance that they want me down the line will be burnt. Shut up, get on with it. Next.
> 
> That's it for a while - goodbye & best wishes, Horizon.


Hey. Just wanted to say within the opposite sex relationship realm, you will do fine once you find someone who knows how to appreciate you and encourages you to flourish. You've been through a lot of tough things.


----------



## Racer

Honestly, this is good stuff Horizon. Anger, emotions, about you and your lot in life broiling up from somewhere deep inside. What is fantastic about it, is think of that as raw energy. Now direct it to change your life instead of trying to change a past you can’t. I did a ton with anger driving me forward. 

And about that humiliation thing. I don’t believe you get off on it. I’d be willing to be you just sort of expect to be treated like that. So it’s become a self-fulfilling prophesy. I won’t give up on you. Seriously, I was a total wreck and see a lot of myself in you. I am kind of a masochist myself... sort of like ‘testing your metal’ just to see how much damage you can endure and not lose it. Almost a certain pride that you can’t be crushed and can take it. 

Oh, and I’ll guess that suicidal thoughts have entered (or they did with me when I got like that). I’ve come close enough to feel the 5 lb pull of trigger with 4 lbs on it. That’s also when I decided I had nothing left to lose by trying to do things completely different. Instead of living for others, I just said F’ it and started doing stuff for myself. Was easier when I was in college to just sort of drop off the planet and go. Not so easy as an adult loaded down with responsibilities and people who do actually rely on me... However it can be done. 

I did turn it all around. Enjoying my life, and enjoying my freaking insane SA wife. You can too.

Sorry about the job. Keep plugging away. Something will come along. Do not give up on yourself.


----------



## turnera

My DH had the same kind of upbringing. Today, when he gets in a situation where he looks bad or is seen as wrong, he grins. It's the weirdest thing. I'd be breaking down sobbing, but his defense mechanism is to grin and pretend it's cool, it's funny. I think therapy would be amazing for you, considering the amount of abuse you endured.

Have you ever read A Child Called It?


----------



## bfree

Al-Anon would help him detach. Just sayin.


----------



## Racer

Horizon said:


> excuse my prying, but do you and your wife have an active physical relationship, are you happy in this dept?


Yes. Happy at first, but it’s slowly starting to devolve into her old dynamics. Rather than thread jack this thread, I’ll paste it into yours.

Expanded:
The sex is not quite where I want it to be lately, but I will own part of it and understand the dynamics a ton better. So it’s different and less of a problem this round that I dwell on. I no longer expect sex ‘just because’ I bought the cow. 

Also there’s that perception switch. For me, it isn’t sex. My ‘breakthrough’ was more that I wanted to feel wanted, desired and that whomever I’m with romantically, feel that way about me... Sex is a probable outcome of those feelings. I had been using sexual interaction as a kind of relationship meter. So I’ve stopped looking at and counting the sex, but instead look for all those other signs. 

We’ve had those conversations over and over. “Love languages”... we are different in how we interpret. So I’ve learned to translate as have she (she is more of action person like cards, little romantic gestures, dates, etc.). I’m more physical contact, touch and feel but do appreciate some ‘action’ stuff like her making herself look good for me rather than the old sloth cloth attire. Lately though, she’s gone back to invalidating how I feel those romantic things like to her, they aren’t important and showing little signs of how she might express seeing me as a romantic option. 

So, on to Plan B. Remember how I don’t rely on her for my own emotional needs? She is well aware of this and I don’t tell her to fix this. I’ve put it simply; “I feel unwanted and undesired. I do want to feel this and have a hard time doing this without some sort of re-assurance from the outside. I want it to be you that helps me; This is not easily found looking in a mirror. Can you help?” I get some words, “oh, I am attracted to you.” then nothing in the form of supporting actions except she ‘let’s me’ have sex with her (in the past she’d reject, but knows now that I really would divorce if we go back to that). Still... it’s much different than jumping me or starting something that works for me emotionally. (Duty sex is just a physical release rather than a positive emotional experience). 

So, I’m starting up the ‘be attractive’ things again and finding it within. Gym stuff, wardrobe, outside interest, and doing fun stuff: *Without her.* As dumb as it is, she’s a ‘grass is greener’ persona. It’s not easy and is hard work particularly when you are depressed (another subject). So you have to place her on the other side of the fence and nurture your field before she is wanting to come to you.

You might consider that. It’s part of the detachment and focusing on your life.


----------



## azteca1986

Horizon said:


> PS: didn't get the job. The modern world of employment prevails - you update your resume', get dolled up, rock up, later get told you are on the short list and then nothing. You have to chase them down to be told you didn't get the job. In the old days people treated you with respect and went to the trouble to let know either by letter or by phone. Not anymore - f**k you is the mentality. And to think these people doing the interviews were my age or older. But I dare not complain or that chance that they want me down the line will be burnt. Shut up, get on with it. Next.
> 
> That's it for a while - goodbye & best wishes, Horizon.


Don't complain. Learn from the experience. You're within your rights to ask them what you can improve - your resumé, interview technique, any re-skilling you can enter into...

A decent HR department will be happy to give you feedback. It will also help keep you top of mind if an opportunity does present itself later on down the line.


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon said:


> On pedophilia - this is another aspect of the cheating which destroyed me. I had to face this reality about my father from 2004. Knowing from one of my gran daughters what he had done to her over more than 10 years and watching the other gran daughter vehemently pursue denial. Watching my oldest brother excommunicated, even by his own twin and rejected by his own mother, while the others came in firmly behind a monster who escaped conviction.
> 
> Me being the only member of the family who sat firmly in the middle to be there for a brother but no wanting to lose that bond with my greater family. To be viewed with suspicion by my blindly loyal family because I will not let my older brother be forgotten. In all this emotional turmoil, years of it, raising my children - in all this my WS decided to betray me.



oh, man.


that you retained your basic sanity while living in this toxic cauldron seems like such an achievement. 

of course, with some psychological fault lines, as you yourself know.


----------



## treyvion

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> oh, man.
> 
> 
> that you retained your basic sanity while living in this toxic cauldron seems like such an achievement.
> 
> of course, with some psychological fault lines, as you yourself know.


Go find you a "good church girl" who knows that she likes sex and never look back.


----------



## Horizon

News.

I am now ensconced in the guest room which has been met with some disapproval - "as long as it's not permanent". Bottom line - there is nothing, she had one sleepless night adjusting and that's it. As I explained; I may as well sleep alone - I have been sleeping alone for a long time.

This was my reaction to the first heated exchange in months where, among other things, she accused me of stalking the POSOM. That was the last straw and I moved that night. She was effectively defending him. (This came about from a question I asked her about the mystery man she was seeing when we first started up). 

Previously she would not name him for the ridiculous fear that I would hunt him down - this has now morphed into "I can't remember his name". More BS (even if I am chasing ghosts I was just trying to fit a piece of the jigsaw puzzle) 

She also rigorously reinforced the point that she did not need to explain anything to me about her cheating. And yet again she hit me with "get over it!". This was all the motivation I needed to take that next step.

Even better news.

Yesterday my specialist confirmed that I have stopped my Diabetes in it's tracks. All my blood work is excellent and equal to non-Diabetics. I have lost 5 kilos. He's super impressed and has told me to not bother testing my blood but keep up the Diabetes tablets in the meantime. I'm aiming to drop down to 110 Kilos by Xmas - steady as she goes. He has referred me back to my local GP and doesn't want to see me until next March. The good eating and Gym workouts are working - I really feel great today. A door has been swung wide open for me.


----------



## alte Dame

Great news on the health front! You are a testament to tenacity, Horizon, and I have faith that you will be fine in the end. Growing up the way you did taught you how to endure & now it seems like you are teaching yourself how to win.

I'm sorry the job didn't pan out. It sounds like pablum, but you WILL eventually land something good if you keep at it.


----------



## Horizon

I'm the captain of this ship.

To think I fell into a deep hole a few days ago and it was a minor blow up with my WS that brought me out of it.

I'm obviously physically, psychologically & emotionally stronger. I just suddenly had this energy to confront the BS and really see the dead horse I was flogging. I just went and did it.

As far as I'm concerned if you removed our children (God forbid) and our financial commitment from the equation we'd have nothing - and one day that will be the case.

There is no great song and dance from her; we may as well be single. In any case this is for me.

Certainly my improved physical and mental condition is great for my son & daughter. It's an example I want them to experience. You can teach old dogs new tricks!

And isn't it funny that my WS, who has been a lifetime poor eater, is now making salads for work and taking fruit. Incredible - she has actually told me it is quite intentional. She's trying to improve that part of her life. I feel I have had some influence on her in that area.

But for us nothing has changed. There is no activity - we exist under the same roof and that's it. Be that as it may I have bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Horizon

It's like we are 180'ing each other. It feels like it is utterly and completely over but she is ignoring the fact - he's not saying anything so I wont either. I suppose she is happy enough to just have me here as the minder - to admit to anything deeper might mean bringing it to a head and thus disrupting the already precarious balance. 

She said to me that she understood I needed to have my space for myself. Umm....am I missing something? Do you understand how weird this is? She is content to live this way as though she just views it as a little phase I'm going through. That old neediness rears it's head and I knuckle down and remind myself this is for me.

It seems completely pointless though - just another thing that has happened.


----------



## Shaggy

Horizon,

My advice, give up the booze completely- at this point all alcohol to you is nothing but bad calories and a mood depressant.

I'm no tea toddler, so I'm not saying this from that angle. Replace it with water and some lemon slices. Yeah, it doesn't taste as good, but it does help with the weight loss.


----------



## turnera

What's your goal now, Horizon?


----------



## Decorum

Shaggy said:


> Horizon,
> 
> My advice, give up the booze completely- at this point all alcohol to you is nothing but bad calories and a mood depressant.
> 
> I'm no tea toddler, so I'm not saying this from that angle. Replace it with water and some lemon slices. Yeah, it doesn't taste as good, but it does help with the weight loss.


Actually lemon slices in water help adjust your PH correctly, you will feel the difference when you get that right. And be less prone to disease. Its alkalizing.

http://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2006/02/10/lemon-water-alkalising-superstar/


FYI, My comments earlier about alcohol were exactly for the reasons Shaggy stated, not to make you a "teetotaler". Not trying to be defensive here, just want my intentions to be clear.

Peace!


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> Actually lemon slices in water help adjust your PH correctly, you will feel the difference when you get that right. And be less prone to disease. Its alkalizing.
> 
> Lemon Water Benefits
> 
> 
> FYI, My comments earlier about alcohol were exactly for the reasons Shaggy stated, not to make you a "teetotaler". Not trying to be defensive here, just want my intentions to be clear.
> 
> Peace!


All good. We have an awesome lemon tree in our backyard - only yesterday we gave away yet another bag. It is going gangbusters since we pruned it and occasionally urinate on it - plus the osmocote citrus pellets of course. I have never seen a lemon tree drop so many lemons. So yes, I will try the lemon slices in water.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> What's your goal now, Horizon?


A job! - there is obviously no doubt that a job will make a huge difference in so many ways. 

I want to have financial independence from my WS.

It's crazy, way back I won more than 30 grand, when we I had my first home. I put the lot on my mortgage. My WS was with me by then. It was how I always viewed money - in a collective way.

On the other hand she is a "good earner" but has a different view about money - "It's mine and I'll do what I like with it" was effectively her outlook. Over time from when I became a SAHD her entitlement grew and so did her disrespect for me. 

As I made adjustments to suit her career advancement / our family (gave up my driving job to accommodate her much higher paid new job) she was was effectively the sole breadwinner. I contributed whatever I could with whatever work I could fit around the children's needs.

All of this just added to the broken relationship - her diminished view of me etc. See, it only really all became conscious after DDay.

DDay was the big wake call for me as you can well see. It is an undeserved lesson but a lesson nonetheless. Something had to snap me out of it and it had to be betrayal.

So my over arching goal is to move past the world of negativity she handed me.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon,
I so agree with what you say.
My wife became a sahm after the birth of our first child.

She later became afflicted with MS and was no longer able to work.

But she is industrious and thrifty and I am telling you that she has saved me/us more money then she could have ever earned at a part time job.

In the 20 plus years, I have never felt like it was my money, like she was freeloading, or she was lazy, never. (Now I will admit sometimes I am.)

I have to monitor my "happiness level" to maintain my motivation, its a personal issue. (not that I am unwilling to talk about it, I just don't want to take up a lot of space ATM).

A spouse that is like my wife is worth their weight in gold, but I do subscribe to the view that its hard for a woman to respect a man who does the same thing (i.e. SAHD), some woman get it, but you need to be sure.

So yes, employment - do it!

Don't be discouraged, I see people whom I know, that I would NEVER hire, get jobs, its not you! You just need to find the right place.

Follow through, there is a better future for you if you do.

If you do what you have always done and get what you have always got, then if you want something different you have to DO something differently.

Take care!


----------



## Horizon

Really pi**ed off with myself.

This weekend has been going OK, I'm in the guest room still and will remain there and the vibe around the house is pretty good.

But this morning over a few laughs I stupidly hinted at some physical. It was a step back. Her reaction was par for the course; a kind of half hearted agreeance while she turned the newspaper pages without looking at me.

I set myself up and has been noted before; I set myself up for a fall. I misplaced my dignity. I did the same thing only recently and whilst this morning was no blow up it hit me harder. It was like the beginning of last week when she uttered the infamous "You stalked him" - "Get over it", I just said to myself I have had enough.

When I inquired about the less than enthusiastic response she hit me with "....I'm being told what to do" line. (A fav refrain of hers) End of the section, I walked off, she tried to go to anger, I nipped it in the bud; said I wasn't copping this anymore and that was it. And I will not. Lesson finally learned. 

You see how mad this is. I need physical intimacy, she is simply not going to give it to me. OK, I get it but....in this false recon zone she is still playing this tune that we are in fact reconciling. So it works this way - she thinks or implies we are getting somewhere. But I know we are going nowhere and when I have a hiccup (usually about sex) it becomes a shining example of me doing something to de-rail the false recon process. Get what I mean?

Catch 22 - no win.

Just on re-writing history. I noticed when we had the minor blow up a week ago when I decided to hit the guest room, she said to me "You are always demanding sex". I asked her to give me an example of that, she said nothing, I then pounded out the words "I demand sex!" and asked her if I have ever done that. More silence. I then asked her to retract that statement. Nothing. I have never demanded sex in my life, dropped plenty of hints but never demanded. Sickens me to see history being spun like this.

So I took two steps back but it is not a bad thing - it is part of the recovery process. I have to be stronger. Much as I hate shaking hands with the unemployed I guess I am going to have to; something I haven't done for weeks but....well, a man's gotta eat.

Good ship Horizon is back on course.

PS: Seeing as I'm going to be in the guest room for some time, I'm seriously considering a massive poster of Jane Fonda from Barbarella - after all, the first time I genuinely felt like I was on heat was when I was watching Ms Fonda in that opening scene - whew!


----------



## turnera

Priests go without sex for their whole lives. Surely you can do without for a year or two while setting up your future life.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> Priests go without sex for their whole lives. Surely you can do without for a year or two while setting up your future life.


Well they're supposed to anyway. For the first 3/4 of church history priests were allowed to marry. Look for that to change soon.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Priests go without sex for their whole lives. Surely you can do without for a year or two while setting up your future life.


That will be impossible. I'm not being smart about this T and I take your point but I have got to get some action. Thankfully I'm not into pros, couldn't afford it anyway. I don't like online F/Buddy stuff either - guess I'll just have to pray or something.

It's bizarre - my WS wants to stick with me but she can't connect with me physically (and yes, we know why, it's well documented - she's just not into me). The whole shebang is dead in the water.

And yet some months ago she talked about having demons and issues with men and "we're getting close" etc - these things blocking re-connection along with my inability to "get over it". 

She wants to be with me and - oh boy, here's another line for that thread about quotes you don't want to hear anymore - drum roll.... "I chose you". :rofl: After having her bit of fun she chose me! She saw her sordid betrayal to it's natural conclusion (until it might have started up again and who knows, may well again) and then chose me. She doesn't see any hole in that claim :rofl:

I digress, the point is that if you had these issues blocking you having the Recon you want why wouldn't you be working on that? :scratchhead: You and I know the reason but not my WS.

Onward and upward.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> That will be impossible. I'm not being smart about this T and I take your point but I have got to get some action. Thankfully I'm not into pros, couldn't afford it anyway. I don't like online F/Buddy stuff either - guess I'll just have to pray or something.
> 
> It's bizarre - my WS wants to stick with me but she can't connect with me physically (and yes, we know why, it's well documented - she's just not into me). The whole shebang is dead in the water.
> 
> And yet some months ago she talked about having demons and issues with men and "we're getting close" etc - these things blocking re-connection along with my inability to "get over it".
> 
> She wants to be with me and - oh boy, here's another line for that thread about quotes you don't want to hear anymore - drum roll.... "I chose you". :rofl: After having her bit of fun she chose me! She saw her sordid betrayal to it's natural conclusion (until it might have started up again and who knows, may well again) and then chose me. She doesn't see any hole in that claim :rofl:
> 
> I digress, the point is that if you had these issues blocking you having the Recon you want *why wouldn't you be working on that? :scratchhead: You and I know the reason but not my WS.*
> 
> Onward and upward.


Would you mind laying out the reason for this as you see it? I'm curious if you see it the same way I do.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon



Horizon said:


> That will be impossible. I'm not being smart about this T and I take your point but I have got to get some action. Thankfully I'm not into pros, couldn't afford it anyway. I don't like online F/Buddy stuff either - guess I'll just have to pray or something.
> 
> It's bizarre - my WS wants to stick with me but she can't connect with me physically (and yes, we know why, it's well documented - she's just not into me). The whole shebang is dead in the water.
> 
> And yet some months ago she talked about having demons and issues with men and "we're getting close" etc - these things blocking re-connection along with my inability to "get over it".
> 
> She wants to be with me and - oh boy, here's another line for that thread about quotes you don't want to hear anymore - drum roll.... "I chose you". :rofl: After having her bit of fun she chose me! She saw her sordid betrayal to it's natural conclusion (until it might have started up again and who knows, may well again) and then chose me. She doesn't see any hole in that claim :rofl:
> 
> I digress, the point is that if you had these issues blocking you having the Recon you want why wouldn't you be working on that? :scratchhead: You and I know the reason but not my WS.
> 
> Onward and upward.


Horizon,
I have followed your thread all along, but if I get something wrong please forgive me, because I'm going from memory, and I'm low thyroid ATM so it my not be pretty, ha ha.

Here is what has been on my mind for a few days now.
I just want to say that I am in no way excusing her cheating.

As I recall you were a hard person to live with because of your depression. That kind of situation dries a woman up from the inside. I had been thinking of your wife as in the wrong but lately I see her and your marriage as damaged by more than the affair.

Let me explain what I mean. To her the (can I say) "past" Horizon is still very much in the present.

Is it possible that she does regret her affair and wants to be committed to you, but the needy draining Horizon is just hard for her to continue to prop up.

Some times her attitude does seem harsh, but maybe it is all she has left emotionally ATM. her tank is empty.

If this is the case the appropriate response on your part is not anger, but to truly work on Horizon, do what you said in your previous post, get counseling, take you meds etc, become an energy giver and not an energy taker.

I don't have boots on the ground so this could be off.

But doing the 180 so that she will seek you could be the wrong approach, it just seems like a relief for her to be free of the burden.

Don't hold that against her if it has taken a lot out of her, she is only human, I do think sometimes you have to put the affair in perspective and work on yourself and your marriage to raise the level of a reconciliation, when the relationship was hobbled in the first place. This I know is close to TAM heresy.

Can you be more patient, work on you and be someone that is fun to be with for her. Do you remember what it was like in the beginning, a phone call, holding hands, just being together were all amazing, don't be needy but try to enjoy what she is able to give, and work on being someone that she can enjoy too.

I think this is going to take some time and work. Are you willing to do that?

I think that your current approach is to her a bit like trying to hug a porcupine in a mine field.

Just consider it, if it's off I'm sorry, maybe some of our fellow posters can make some adjustments to it.

Take care!


----------



## Racer

The sex thing was hard for me too Horizon. Just keep working on yourself. And like I said, do a bit of socializing on the outside to get a feel for yourself. Basically, I found I had allowed my wife to define for me how unattractive I was through all that rejection and acting like being with me was nearly physically repulsive for her. Same sort of battlecry; “It’s all you think about and I’ll not be used for sex!” 

So removed her from my equation and loosened my boundaries outside the marriage. Women were responsive (or at least I believe they were which is just as important). It changed my perception about myself and my wife as well as changing her perception about me. Basically, when a twenty something hottie knows your name and comes up to start chatting when you are out with your fourty something wife (who is also an adulterer and knows she is withholding), just kinda brings out the jealousy in them. When higher sex rank females are around and actually like you, your wife will feel it. In her head, I was lucky she tolerated me because no other woman would. Taking her out of the house and into a social venue with others who didn’t share her ‘what a loser’ opinion, eventually had her questioning who I really was and why these others saw something in me. And then fear, pure emotion. She knew I owed her nothing but the same petty vindictive behaviors she had put toward me. Let her feel she’s the loser in all this.

I’m not sure you are ready for that yet though. So, start working toward it. Work on yourself until you start seeing yourself as a real catch. Then go out and start testing that theory. Not PUA stuff where you are looking for sex; but acceptance as a friend and someone fun and interesting to talk with. If you are like me, it’s sort of like embracing the old “friend zone” bubble you used to hate as what you are now looking for. Any woman showing interest, you put in that friend zone. 

And lol... I might recommend “The Game” (a PUA book). I did get it originally just to mess with my WW. But read it. The beginning ‘missions’ are about self-confidence boosting exercises and breaking out of a self-isolation shell. You do need that. I even use some of it in business to assist in networking. So go ahead and get it and leave it out on your nightstand. You don’t care if she see’s it. Let her think whatever she wants about why you have it.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> Would you mind laying out the reason for this as you see it? I'm curious if you see it the same way I do.


If these "profound" reasons for her inability to connect with me are not being dealt with then it tells me that she doesn't see any great need to connect - once again, all her own good time, all on her terms.


----------



## Horizon

Decorum,

I think you are very close to the mark. In this awful situation when so much is at stake the whole experience is like a slow grinding devolvement into rubble. You try all these tactics and the outcome is not always to your benefit - one size does not fit all.

To your point - given my WS's personality these tactics have had little impact. Some will say it reflects the fact that she is not into me and she just can't fake it and is making excuses and creating diversions until something gives - I leave or something. That's been my thinking all along but I do wonder.

I have been an emotional drain on her, I am like that - emotionally hungry, but much less since DDay. To be fair to her it was not pretty - she had no damn right to cheat but it was not pretty. The stupidity is that she introduced a third person and just complicated the sh!t out of the wreckage of our relationship.

I do believe deep down that we are salvageable - think Costa Concordia being re-floated 

I will have a much better idea as things continue to improve for me. I feel really good now and I'm hoping that as I continue to focus on me good things will come from that. A job will be the icing on the cake.

Realistically I'd like her to do a lot more remorse but she just can't do it. She shows love in small ways, that's all she has got. I have to find that space between what I believe I need in a relationship and what she is capable of giving and how she may "improve" and if that is enough. 

I do have to be patient and as you say find those moments. An example would be the wrestle we had at our son's baseball game on the weekend. Nothing OTT but it was fun; I knocked her hat off a few times and she responded physically, tried to push me out of my chair, then I put a gentle headlock on her and she elbowed my ribs and went for my ears. This was all done with a quite a bit of laughing. Seriously it was fun. God knows what people thought. Who cares!

What a rollercoaster. I'm not convinced though, she is pretty selfish but we will see.


----------



## Horizon

I mean I don't even know if i will ever really be able to get past the cheating even though the images don't have a hold on me, even though I feel better and stronger than the affair - I just don't know.


----------



## turnera

Horizon, the ONLY way I see your wife ever caring about you again is if you start getting out of your house and having a LIFE. One that doesn't include her. One that does include lots of people and lots of pretty women (who you are NOT pursuing, but she doesn't have to know that).

You need to raise your ranking. Right now it's so low it's below the floorboards and you're invisible. Start enjoying your life. She will notice.


----------



## turnera

And have you made an appointment with a therapist yet?


----------



## Shaggy

I think it's a mix of you getting you out as other have said, and her dealing with her alcoholism. That much drink every night is killing her ability to feel an honest emotion. It fully everything and cast a gray pallor on it.

Look I'm certainly not anti drinking, but she's taken it so far that she really is into the self medicating zone.


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> I think it's a mix of you getting you out as other have said, and her dealing with her alcoholism. That much drink every night is killing her ability to feel an honest emotion. It fully everything and cast a gray pallor on it.
> 
> Look I'm certainly not anti drinking, but she's taken it so far that she really is into the self medicating zone.


You are falling short here Shaggy, she's full blown alcoholic.
Absolutly no hope here unless she acknoledges and then decide to take the path of recovery. Even then, chances are she will not be aviable to a half decent relationship for at least two years in the best scenario. Recovering from alcohol requires it to be the primary, almost exclusive focus, there's little room to anything nor anyone more.


----------



## Horizon

Yes, I am seeing a therapist. All going well but I do have to say that it's all territory I have covered before when I was much younger and in therapy (in my early 20's). I'm not being smug but I feel I know all there is to know - the key is how do you move beyond that and it seems to me that only I can do that by working on the here and now - learning to be that fwd thinking person and stop living in the past. I have been living in the past since my Mother stood by while my Father abused me - no doubt my siblings, who are comfortably numb to the truth, except for my beloved older brother, exist the same way.

My WS is an alcoholic, a total self medicator as observed - no ifs buts or maybes. On the weekend she bought a large bottle of whisky (1125 mls). After two nights 3/4 of it is gone (I had a little of it myself - 150 ml approx over 2 nights). She's averaging around 300-350 ml each night.

I have told her again recently that I am very concerned what the long term ramifications for her health are, let alone the damage already done. She nods her head and acknowledges what I'm saying but once again, you can lead a horse to water....

I know she is thinking about it, I can't tell you exactly why but I can see changes in her diet as an indicator she is thinking about her overall health. I am hoping that she can make that leap to dealing with her alcoholism but I suspect that it is such a huge hurdle that it may overwhelm her. In any case a big worry for us seeing she is the chief bread winner. 

All the other things that go with the drinking - poor boundaries & judgement, quality of relationships etc are going to be a huge revelation if she ever gets off this awful stuff.


----------



## Decorum

By working on yourself you are being a good example to her.
Don't push her verbally to much for now but keep doing what you are doing. At some point hopefully she will realize that (considering he current state) you are better then she deserves. (I mean in terms of behavior). Maybe it will light a fire under her.

She is already making small (ok easy) healthy choices, but it is a start.


----------



## Acabado

... and please, please, please, don't beg for sex again.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Acabado said:


> ... and please, please, please, don't beg for sex again.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Horizon

OK, I accept that my hint dropping was begging for some action and yet another thing for her to view as weak and pathetic. Not any more!


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> By working on yourself you are being a good example to her.
> Don't push her verbally to much for now but keep doing what you are doing. At some point hopefully she will realize that (considering he current state) you are better then she deserves. (I mean in terms of behavior). Maybe it will light a fire under her.
> 
> She is already making small (ok easy) healthy choices, but it is a start.


That's the thing. The only way I can influence her is by my detachment - - by bettering myself. I'm doing that. I have stopped my Diabetes in it's tracks, I'm losing weight, eating well and the kids are responding to it. Our conversations are far more often about a healthy lifestyle. I can only hope that she will get to that point of change sooner rather than later. If it happens it will be amazing - eventually. With or without me she will be in a much better place.


----------



## turnera

Look for ways to fill your days with your kids with fun, cheap things to do. Go for walks, take them fishing, play volleyball or soccer, make paper sailboats...fill your time with amazing memories and let her see you doing that...and miss it.


----------



## treyvion

turnera said:


> Look for ways to fill your days with your kids with fun, cheap things to do. Go for walks, take them fishing, play volleyball or soccer, make paper sailboats...fill your time with amazing memories and let her see you doing that...and miss it.



Do it for you may as well get lost in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon:

A couple of pessimistic probabilities (a little untimely, but bear with me):

* She finds better career prospects, begins earning more money, begets higher social status, and eventually leaves you (after having found a ‘better’ man (in her view), or even without it).

* She surrenders to her alcoholism, it impacts her work and eventually she loses the job / gets demoted or whatever, turns into a physical and mental wreck, and then, leans on you to pick up the pieces.

*I hope at the end of all this drama, you are not saddled with the second probability. *The first one, you can handle better.

I am saying this because, if the second probability turns real, *you might stick on and try to be the savior, at great (further) cost to yourself *(you already are 50, and perhaps should not be gambling with any more of your life).

I wish there was a way to stop both probabilities on their tracks.


----------



## Horizon

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Horizon:
> 
> A couple of pessimistic probabilities (a little untimely, but bear with me):
> 
> * She finds better career prospects, begins earning more money, begets higher social status, and eventually leaves you (after having found a ‘better’ man (in her view), or even without it).
> 
> * She surrenders to her alcoholism, it impacts her work and eventually she loses the job / gets demoted or whatever, turns into a physical and mental wreck, and then, leans on you to pick up the pieces.
> 
> *I hope at the end of all this drama, you are not saddled with the second probability. *The first one, you can handle better.
> 
> I am saying this because, if the second probability turns real, *you might stick on and try to be the savior, at great (further) cost to yourself *(you already are 50, and perhaps should not be gambling with any more of your life).
> 
> I wish there was a way to stop both probabilities on their tracks.


....gulp


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> ....gulp


Stiff upper lip mate. The path for you is the same.
Be the Horizon you chose to be not the one that life (or the wife) pushed you to be.

Good choices, personal contentment, confidence, these are worth their weight in, oh IDK a good imported tea! 

Go here and you will be able to enjoy or at least deal with the possible outcomes.


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> Stiff upper lip mate. The path for you is the same.
> Be the Horizon you chose to be not the one that life (or the wife) pushed you to be.
> 
> Good choices, personal contentment, confidence, these are worth their weight in, oh IDK a good imported tea!
> 
> Go here and you will be able to enjoy or at least deal with the possible outcomes.


True and thanks Decorum. I'm sure you know I was being just a little tongue in cheek, however the point was well made.

I'm really thankful that I can see a world for me which does not include my WS. Yes it saddens me to some degree but is also uplifting because it is really possible to move on from an affair. By that I mean to be able to genuinely see beyond it, even after only 6 months.

It is amazing how just getting off my arse and working on me has made such a difference to my attitude. 

I step sideways occasionally, as I did yesterday, when I re-read some of their e-mails. It is not just about self torture though, it helped me reinforce the degree to which she was involved with him - all of it denied. 

I doubt whether i will read them again - they are just about imprinted on my brain anyway. I'll keep them either way. And one final thing - recalling their communication helps my steadfastness in not ever underplaying what she did. It is a monstrous betrayal. 

Just one last thing. There have been many benefits in being a BS. A heavy price to pay but it has helped me - I will never say she has done me a favor though. The thing is it does make me wonder what I ever had with her during all these years - what was our relationship really built on? Who is she really? Who am I?

All of us, the betrayed, have received this wake-up call. It's incumbent upon us to use this personal cataclysm wisely. Have a great weekend everyone.


----------



## KanDo

Horizon said:


> OK, I accept that my hint dropping was begging for some action and yet another thing for her to view as weak and pathetic. Not any more!


She views you as weak and pathetic because that is how you present yourself. You whine about the intolerable situation you are in but you tolerate it. You say you detach, but you seek physical connection. When will you ever take action???Just see a lawyer and file. Man-up and move on. Stop wallowing and start winning. She will be paying you support for at least the short run. You have no legitimate excuse for not respecting yourself.

Rant over.


----------



## Horizon

KanDo said:


> She views you as weak and pathetic because that is how you present yourself. You whine about the intolerable situation you are in but you tolerate it. You say you detach, but you seek physical connection. When will you ever take action???Just see a lawyer and file. Man-up and move on. Stop wallowing and start winning. She will be paying you support for at least the short run. You have no legitimate excuse for not respecting yourself.
> 
> Rant over.


Very interesting thread and you have sure been through the ringer. That's two years and counting dude, I've been at this for about 6 months. In any case I have to do this my way, bit by bit. Your way is your way KanDo. 45K is madness as far as I'm concerned but horses for courses. Good luck with the outcome.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> I'm really thankful that I can see a world for me which does not include my WS. Yes it saddens me to some degree but is also uplifting because it is really possible to move on from an affair. By that I mean to be able to genuinely see beyond it, even after only 6 months.
> 
> *It is amazing how just getting off my arse and working on me has made such a difference to my attitude... *
> 
> All of us, the betrayed, have received this wake-up call. It's incumbent upon us to use this personal cataclysm wisely.
> 
> Have a great weekend everyone.



Horizon, 

There is a new brightness about you that comes through in your writing. :smthumbup:

Be it a sunrise or a sunset it is a place in time and space, full speed ahead mate, I'm proud of you, really!


----------



## Horizon

Thanks Decorum, reminds me of a great trip I made by myself back in the early 90's. I went down the Western Australia south coast from Fremantle (famous for when we stole the America's Cup from the Yanks back in the 80's).

It is an amazing place. Late one afternoon I took a walk along the headland at Cape Naturaliste to a whale watching spot and it looked much like your photo. The sun was a little higher in the sky, soon clouds gathered and random shafts of light spotted the ocean to the horizon. Glorious.


----------



## Horizon

Couldn't help but VAR the catch up with friends. I really needed to hear her spin on the A - if it were to be discussed. It was.

What a whitewash! We have sorted ourselves out apparently, decided we are better together than apart. A much needed wake up call! 

Boy would I love to put my 20 cents worth into that one.

But I wont. I now have clarity on the spin; sort of knew it anyway.

Amazing how far apart the reality is from the spin. 

So happy to see that you are over it darling and glad to see we are headed in the right direction - sarc off -.

No real remorse - a few drinks, it happens. Move on.


----------



## Horizon

....and yes, my WS has officially been head-hunted by the US firm. Much more money, business trips overseas 3 times each year - "fasten your seat belts it's going to be a bumpy ride"


----------



## Horizon

I have been doing our arithmetic and we will officially need to go and see our bank dude for extra moola. There are some complications coming up with us having to get another vehicle when the company car is handed back and available funds to do that etc - usual sh!t, living beyond our means. 

As a bloke, this is how I think - Problem & Solution. 

Reality - on the same day that my WS has been head-hunted I have been accused of raining on her parade by bringing this up.

This is one of the relationship stumbling blocks people. I know from experience that this is generally her response. I'm always bringing bad news. However if I magically new when the correct time to raise the subject was or the precious words to use so as not to infuriate her then all would be well. Yes, I'm the party pooper.

Meanwhile our available funds drop and drop and drop - I mentioned it here months ago, I've been telling her for years and years. But I am the Father figure old ogre checking the ledger and she doesn't want to hear it. It's not about timing - it's about a total f**king miss-match.


----------



## Horizon

We cannot talk about the affair. It can only ever be an argument. This week has been a step back. Maybe I should not have VAR'd the BS she spoke about the A to her friends.

Our little set-to tonight (nothing too bad) completely followed script. It takes the same course almost word for word. It was a blast from the past and completely unnecessary. 

She sticks so steadfastly to her line - unbreakable. Yes, I'm not going to ever break it, nor should I endeavour to. Just a step back, cementing what can't be changed.


----------



## turnera

Why, again, are you in this when she is doing NOTHING to repair what she did?


----------



## Madman1

Interesting thread. Your wife is a tough nut to crack.

IMO your wife thinks you two have agreed that you are better together then apart. She believes its about as good as it can get.

She knows you are obsessing for her, chasing her, so she has your interest securely in place and she is in control of the love faucet. 
She has no reason to feel insecure.

I wonder if you started to have a disinterest in her, a losing of respect for her, not the anger, name calling or begging $hit, just a subtle revulsion of her. 
Maybe she would start chasing you a bit.

Maybe if she wants to cuddle, think of vomit and say "ah not right now or something", show it on your face in your eyes.

You have had a good upswing, I hope you can stay up.


----------



## Racer

It is something for you to work on Horizon. I too am a ‘party-pooper’; it was one of those valid complaints my wife had against me. Same thing, I look at the big picture. There’s also a deeper issue within... I don’t like change. So my head automatically seeks out problems or issues with new changes. You need to do a couple things; Get out of your comfort zones more and learn that you will be ok. That helps build some confidence that change isn’t worth a ton of worry about. The other thing is to intentionally also seek out the pro’s of this change so it isn’t associated in your head as only problematic. Looking for the good (even if’s its wrong); Right off the top of my head it says to me this is a good thing in a divorce settlement with more alimony potential and less chance of custody due to travel.

And lastly, learn to let someone bask in their glory of their little triumphs in life. There’s no reason you had to bring it up immediately. Just tuck it away and bring it up a few days later as well as some thought out solutions to the problem.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Why, again, are you in this when she is doing NOTHING to repair what she did?


For my children & for financial reasons. But it is problematic. I don't want to think cynically but it might be, as suggested, that ironically she in fact moves on. Despite what she says. 

I really believe that the eventual independence of the children, when they are less of a factor in that sense, will be the time when action takes place.

It does feel like a holding pattern despite her proclamations of "ever after" and very much because of my constant state of doubt & overall lack of belief. My WS still believes it is a case of when I finally get over it :scratchhead:


----------



## Horizon

Madman1 said:


> Interesting thread. Your wife is a tough nut to crack.
> 
> IMO your wife thinks you two have agreed that you are better together then apart. She believes its about as good as it can get.
> 
> She knows you are obsessing for her, chasing her, so she has your interest securely in place and she is in control of the love faucet.
> She has no reason to feel insecure.
> 
> I wonder if you started to have a disinterest in her, a losing of respect for her, not the anger, name calling or begging $hit, just a subtle revulsion of her.
> Maybe she would start chasing you a bit.
> 
> Maybe if she wants to cuddle, think of vomit and say "ah not right now or something", show it on your face in your eyes.
> 
> You have had a good upswing, I hope you can stay up.


Thanks. I have been down this road numerous times over the months. It results in a no communication period and then is completely forgotten - by her. I am portrayed as the one who is being narky and not "getting over it". It's like water off a ducks back to her. She's impenetrable on this stuff. Yes, she's happy as it is. Her horizon (pun if you like) is pretty close - as good as it gets is right. Life can be broken down into simple digestible pieces. Stop bringing up this Affair nonsense and get on with it!


----------



## Horizon

Racer said:


> It is something for you to work on Horizon. I too am a ‘party-pooper’; it was one of those valid complaints my wife had against me. Same thing, I look at the big picture. There’s also a deeper issue within... I don’t like change. So my head automatically seeks out problems or issues with new changes. You need to do a couple things; Get out of your comfort zones more and learn that you will be ok. That helps build some confidence that change isn’t worth a ton of worry about. The other thing is to intentionally also seek out the pro’s of this change so it isn’t associated in your head as only problematic. Looking for the good (even if’s its wrong); Right off the top of my head it says to me this is a good thing in a divorce settlement with more alimony potential and less chance of custody due to travel.
> 
> And lastly, learn to let someone bask in their glory of their little triumphs in life. There’s no reason you had to bring it up immediately. Just tuck it away and bring it up a few days later as well as some thought out solutions to the problem.


Yes, you are right. I handled it badly. I have a lot to learn - and I am. It just pi**es me off that I have to be the one to point out that we are going backwards, that her oft used default "I hear you" is classic avoidance. 

I want to set guidelines - a budget. I have tried for years and my WS studiously avoids it. My money my say is the implication. She hates to be fenced in - hence no boundaries huh?

It's part of the mismatch which only becomes apparent after you are already locked together. I should have known years back, before the kids, when I questioned her about her Superannuation and she flipped out. 

She did not have a clue how much she had in Super or even the location of some of it. She had a few floating around due to job changes; her paperwork all over the place and still is to this day. 

And this is where the personality comes in, the attitude to men perhaps (the Father thing) and her perceptions about control all tied up in her outburst....how dare I make her feel stupid for not knowing her Super status. 

Excuse me for wanting to take a snapshot of our financial status and work a budget since we now both were responsible for my mortgage. The thing is that she doesn't see that her very attitudes are far more about control than mine.

I don't really want to discuss it. I may not be in the mood to discuss it. I may well jump straight to defensive anger if you try to pin me down. 

But yes, her glory, I'll be more sensitive to her glory moments. Yes! of course!! Her affair was a glory moment - "he made me feel good". She defends him on one hand and on the other hand says she would smack him in the mouth if she saw him now. 

That POS gave her glory and was only using her, she allowed herself to be used - the fog was dropping and she saw the lay (deliberate pun) of the land.


----------



## turnera

"I hear you."

"WHAT do you hear? I want to know exactly what you heard me say and what it means. Right now."


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> "I hear you."
> 
> "WHAT do you hear? I want to know exactly what you heard me say and what it means. Right now."


Yes, of course. But it's not like that. She's always doing something else. And more to the point, when I pull her up and say "No, you hear me but you are not listening" - she says "Yes I am!". You see, she's just that type of person, she's not even trying to be nasty or controlling, just not available when it doesn't suit her or I'm just constantly choosing bad times. The upshot is she doesn't change her behavior anyway.


----------



## Racer

Oh geez... My wife has said on multiple occasions "You make me feel stupid." I clarify it for her. "No. I just point out the absence of thought and you already know this. It's not me making you feel stupid that has you upset, it's that I noticed it too that bothers you most." She can't have flaws in her own mind. So rather than feel stupid for the stupid things she does, it's easier to blame those feelings on you just because you do actually think things out. What was once a strength and attraction she had about you (because foresight ads security) is now a liability in her head (limits her). 

I bet once that was a nice balance between the two of you. She was impulsive, you kept her in check. You were stuck in 'your comfort zone' she introduced you to new impulsive things you would have talked yourself out of if not for her. Now it's a battle between you taking the extreme sides of the spectrum both trying to be 'right'.


----------



## turnera

Then I'll ask you again - what are YOU getting out of this other than to feed your Codependency?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Then I'll ask you again - what are YOU getting out of this other than to feed your Codependency?


I know the difference now. I know my arse from my elbow. I knew 1 10th of f**k-all before. The blinkers are off and I can see what is possible and where I want to be.


----------



## Decorum

Racer said:


> Oh geez... My wife has said on multiple occasions "You make me feel stupid." I clarify it for her. "No. I just point out the absence of thought and you already know this. It's not me making you feel stupid that has you upset, it's that I noticed it too that bothers you most." She can't have flaws in her own mind. So rather than feel stupid for the stupid things she does, it's easier to blame those feelings on you just because you do actually think things out. What was once a strength and attraction she had about you (because foresight ads security) is now a liability in her head (limits her).
> 
> I bet once that was a nice balance between the two of you. She was impulsive, you kept her in check. You were stuck in 'your comfort zone' she introduced you to new impulsive things you would have talked yourself out of if not for her. Now it's a battle between you taking the extreme sides of the spectrum both trying to be 'right'.


Yep,
Sometimes the things that attract us seem toxic to us later on.

One of the things that a connections does early on is create sympathy and appreciation.

How to recapture that, how to see each other’s strength as a positive and let them be who they are.

Is that just idealistic hogwash? I know that is the conflict that brought me to TAM. Still here, so still looking, though I understand the issue better.

I think a lack of mutual respect will certainly sabotage any effort.

That may be a place to start the dialogue. If both agree that they want to better the situation.

Rambling off/

If we can answer that one we should start a marriage website, we could call it "Talk...." oh never mind.


----------



## Horizon

It's not impossible that we can rekindle. I do have irons in each fire, just a few more for my fire. As I have repeated, this new position and the overseas travel and the trip will be make or break us IMO. I just can't see us heading into 2014 with the same dynamic.

That's based on how things are right now - it will be a quite a change. The flip side is the change in me - how I see her now and what I want from life. It's not easy to under these conditions - much remains the same but psychologically I am in a much better place. I am confident in how I will handle my future.

I do take on board the feedback. There are things that all of us can try to improve our chances of Recon. I made the mistake of thinking she would do more - I expected her to and she can't; just small things here and there.

So i do things for me and our children and remain civil with my WS.


----------



## Horizon

Dear friends, you are cordially invited to "The Social Spot" to add your intellect and sense of drama and fun to my thread "The TAM Saga - A compelling Story". Feel free to throw in a paragraph, or more. New characters most welcome. See you there!


----------



## Horizon

The detritus of cheating.

Tonight my WS tells me about this dude who runs a factory. She has had to deal with him for business purposes - has only met him face to face twice. 

So she's telling me about the coincidence that they worked on the same project 12 years ago but from different ends. They never met, would have no idea either existed or worked on the same product.

Then she lays on the fact of his high salary and the even higher $ offer he's been made to work OS - not far from where her new job will take her once a year for a week each time. But he has teenage children and wouldn't want to uplift his family....though maybe.

And it was all such a great conversation and a bit of a laugh and such a coincidence and his great suggestions for the suppliers, her side of the business, and how it all made such good sense and was such a great idea for the retailers and suppliers to embrace his genius ideas....

Meanwhile the BS, me, while projecting an outwardly calm and "interested" demeanor is taking mental notes that you'd expect a BS would take - be compelled to take. 

Name, workplace location, maybe maybe maybe what if what if what if. Go there, pretend to be a prospective client check out his rating. Remember to VAR!!!!

The detritus of cheating.


----------



## Horizon

You know, someone somewhere once tipped me off to watch out for the ones they talk about....I didn't ask for this mild paranoia but do you blame me?


----------



## turnera

No, this guy bugs ME and I'm not even married to your wife.


----------



## Decorum

Ditto, she does not realize the road she is going down, or maybe she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Sounds like she's looking for somebody (anybody) to replace you.


----------



## Horizon

I can only describe it this way - when it comes to my WS talking about other blokes I find it virtually impossible not to see a red flag - even when there shouldn't be one. The fact is she has created the environment where red flags can be planted everywhere. 

I mean how would I know? I have to have that awareness that it might happen again despite her occasional self critiques that her A was such a bad move blah blah blah and will never happen again blah blah blah. Obviously, how can I believe that?

I maintain that this is the third pillar of her addictive nature that has been revealed since DDay. The need to be validated - to be desired. As someone here once said to me - it is also about her trying to recapture those more youthful years; when playing, not having to be so responsible were "de rigueur". 

That is why I believe the new job with the OS travel will be the true make or break. I hate to be cynical but I can see a time when those new ways of concealment will be uncovered. I hope I'm wrong but I have to be prepared, after all, her boundaries have been compromised - which is one of the motivators for why I am working on myself.


----------



## Horizon

And i was required to gently remind her tonight that I am not buying the "You weren't there" "you're putting your own spin on it" or that the e-mails and sexts and voice mails are not an accurate reflection of what took place. I had to tell her, for the millionth time, that I will not accept the lie - ever.

I wont believe her because my Mother lied to me when I was a child - that's the diversionary rationale, Mother issues. Tragic watching a liar in full swing.


----------



## warlock07

This woman really hates you..

Didn't she cheat multiple times before you ?


----------



## treyvion

warlock07 said:


> This woman really hates you..
> 
> Didn't she cheat multiple times before you ?


Horizon,

If she is on "hate"... As she performs her acts against for you her hate grows. When you are "right" her hate grows". When you are "wrong" her hate grows. When you do right by others her hate grows and when you do wrong by other her hate grows.

It can be a lethal situation, and if it is indeed hate, I would extract myself from that environment. You don't want to find out how far it can go.

Get out of analysis mode and start acting on your life, your life depeneds up on it.


----------



## Horizon

She can't face herself when it comes to what she did so she throws it back at me.

This all came about when I told her my older brother did not want to talk to her since finding out what she did - not that they are that close anyway. 

The fact that she was cheating on me while we were both comforting my brother who was being cheated on by his ex around the same time was startlingly ironic and angered him no end.

She was offended that he didn't want contact with her for the foreseeable future and then the "it was a mistake" line came out. I felt compelled to correct her on that and then....

All good, no huge blow up - I do tend to analysis. I'm working on me and my future. Our close proximity will lead to these brush fires occasionally.


----------



## illwill

Can't blame the guy for having a zero tolerance policy for cheaters and hypocrites.


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> This woman really hates you..
> 
> Didn't she cheat multiple times before you ?


I only put it together a few months back that she in fact had some what of a "track record". She had cheated on her husband at the end of their relationship and had also had a "one off" with her best GF's ex - before he was an ex

Having not known her before then it didn't register much with me though, as someone here pointed out, I was technically cheating with her on her ex husband because we started out before she left their home. 

I never met him and she literally came straight to live with me a month or so after we met. I was reassured at the time that it was all over - he was doing his thing and she hers.

In retrospect a bit murky but there were no issues back then, no rampaging husband, no sneaking around. 

Let me put it this way - I know enough to say that she has a bit of form. Cheating on me cemented a pattern. When things hit the skids she seeks affection elsewhere.

I will say this. Today we got a bit heated again. I repeated to her that there was really no chance of Recon while she refused to be questioned, while she was content to just wait around until I "got over it". I reminded her that it will take some heavy lifting on her part; that she really had to pitch in if she was serious.

She told me to go away and leave her alone.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Horizon said:


> She told me to go away and leave her alone.


And that is exactly what you should do!


----------



## Horizon

bfree said:


> And that is exactly what you should do!


Dead right about that


----------



## missthelove2013

ugh...I made a mistake...it was a mistake...
BULLS-H-I-T...SCREWING SOMEONE ELSE IS NOT A MISTAKE, IT IS AN "ON PURPOSE"...deal with it...


----------



## Horizon

missthelove2013 said:


> ugh...I made a mistake...it was a mistake...
> BULLS-H-I-T...SCREWING SOMEONE ELSE IS NOT A MISTAKE, IT IS AN "ON PURPOSE"...deal with it...


Get this, when were having, let's say, a little rehash, she argued that in fact it was a mistake because she was forced into it.

Yes, without actually saying it she implied that my inaction (our relationship downtime) forced her into infidelity. I'm not kidding!

And not forgetting - "just remember who earns the money around here" and "I am not an alcoholic. Do you know how many people I know who drink every night? Most of them". 

Dragging out the big guns she was and there's more but it's just a re-run of other lies.


----------



## bfree

Yeah, she was talking to the OM about how hard and lonely her life was with you and then when she moved to get up and leave she tripped and fell right onto his hoohaa.

Total accident


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> She told me to go away and leave her alone.


"Great. I'll help you pack."


----------



## Horizon

Well that's it. I'm powering for a full time job now.

My WS has not only effectively told me to f**k off re any type of ongoing communication regarding her sordid affair she has today effectively told me to f**k off when I have tried to again (for the umpteenth time) raise the matter of her out of control spending - primarily on her Amex card.

I am accused of yelling, demanding, not listening, not giving her a chance to speak and not believing a word she says (mostly correct on that one). 

Further I was told to "Stop treating me like a child, sort yourself out, get off my back about spending and drinking and get a job and then maybe we can talk. *****ing at me does not work". Maybe she says!

Nothing works with this woman. When I pointed out that I had given up a perfectly good job to suit us she went on about when she took maternity leave 12 & 10 years ago! Huh?- slightly different circumstances I would have thought.

Which made me realise that her A came directly after being out of work for nearly 6 months following a redundancy. Something I haven't mentioned here before. She blames me for shutting her out but she was very down about that - before and right through Xmas 2011 into 2012.

Guess what helped lift her out of the dumps besides a new job (the one she is about to leave). It all happened round the same time - the new job and the A and more to the point the EA was well established prior to March 2012. That's what was helping her through that last period before she snagged her current job. 

Just some detail, another piece of the puzzle - I'm living with a complete stranger now.


----------



## SaltInWound

Horizon said:


> I'm living with a complete stranger now.


Not true. You have always lived with that complete stranger. She was just late introducing herself.


----------



## bandit.45

Next vacation I take I think I'm going to Oz. From all the Aussie threads on TAM I've read, the women down there seem delightfully loose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

There's a time you stop being a victim to become a volunteer.

Reduce your expectations from her to less then zero. Plan your life as she wasn't there (she's not except as a dead weight around your neck). Stop reaching out, about anything: drinking, money, afffair, sex... renounce to any kind of affection of meaningful conversation. Nada. Show no sadness, no frustration, no anger... nothing. She's forniture, just walk around her.

Glad to hear you keek searching for jobs. Kids and an exit plan, these are the real focus.


----------



## Racer

Acabado said:


> There's a time you stop being a victim to become a volunteer.
> 
> Reduce your expectations from her to less then zero. Plan your life as she wasn't there (she's not except as a dead weight around your neck). Stop reaching out, about anything: drinking, money, afffair, sex... renounce to any kind of affection of meaningful conversation. Nada. Show no sadness, no frustration, no anger... nothing. She's forniture, just walk around her.
> 
> Glad to hear you keek searching for jobs. Kids and an exit plan, these are the real focus.


Yep... I liked to think of my wife as a living ghost haunting me. Just sort of a presence around the house that sent chills through me and changed the channels on the tv. Whatever she says to you, repeat it in your head in your best 'spooky voice'... Always gave me a smile. That also pissed her off because I was supposed to get upset or start groveling and I'm just standing there with a silly grin and her not knowing why.


----------



## Horizon

bandit.45 said:


> Next vacation I take I think I'm going to Oz. From all the Aussie threads on TAM I've read, the women down there seem delightfully loose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Delightfully loose and apparently attached. Beware POSOM zones.


----------



## Horizon

Funny thing - she can deny her alcoholism all she likes but her 'History' on her PC suggests a person looking for answers. She's checking out info about alcoholism and not for the first time.

I did cynically wonder if she was looking for a way to label herself as some type of 'safe' drinker - there are categories, self healers, high functioning etc. She's definitely in the 'functioning' category.

I'm certain she knows full well that she is an alcoholic - denial being one of the first identifiers. Maybe it is just the cusp of recovery; (that has been my forlorn hope before) - however it's not my problem any longer.


----------



## bandit.45

Horizon said:


> Delightfully loose and apparently attached. Beware POSOM zones.


Fosters and loose Aussie shielas....too bad I can't drink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

bandit.45 said:


> Fosters and loose Aussie shielas....too bad I can't drink.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not to mention Tooheys (my fav), Reschs, Hahn, KB Lager (NSW), Victorian Bitter, Melbourne Bitter (VIC), Four X (QLD), Cascade (Tasmanian), Coopers (SA), Swan, Emu (WA), NT Draught (Northern Territory....

WE LOVE BEER!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> Funny thing - she can deny her alcoholism all she likes but her 'History' on her PC suggests a person looking for answers. She's checking out info about alcoholism and not for the first time.
> 
> I did cynically wonder if she was looking for a way to label herself as some type of 'safe' drinker - there are categories, self healers, high functioning etc. She's definitely in the 'functioning' category.
> 
> *I'm certain she knows full well that she is an alcoholic *-denial being one of the first identifiers. Maybe it is just the cusp of recovery; (that has been my forlorn hope before) - however it's not my problem any longer.


IF she does realise it, there MAY be something left to hope for.

However with this new higher pressure job about to start I can't see it somehow. She should be thinking about slowing down, not making herself more stressed out with more responsibility.

Horizon, you do sound more upbeat and determined about your future. I think her affair can be viewed in a positive light in some ways. It was the catalyst (eventually) for you to become stronger in yourself and start the process for a better future. 

If she hadn't had the affair then her deteriorating alcoholism could have eventually completely sold you and your kids down the river, because you may possibly have stayed in denial and in your "comfort zone".


----------



## MattMatt

Horizon said:


> Not to mention Tooheys (my fav), Reschs, Hahn, KB Lager (NSW), Victorian Bitter, Melbourne Bitter (VIC), Four X (QLD), Cascade (Tasmanian), Coopers (SA), Swan, Emu (WA), NT Draught (Northern Territory....
> 
> WE LOVE BEER!


Little Creatures Pale Ale. https://littlecreatures.com.au/about


----------



## Horizon

and didn't my WS's mother get a surprise last night when she saw how much whisky her daughter consumed by bed time


----------



## bandit.45

Whiskey is my poison. It nearly killed me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

bandit.45 said:


> Whiskey is my poison. It nearly killed me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was visibly inebriated on the way to bed. We had a great night with her Mum staying over - a beautiful christian woman, but she was a little shocked alright (because I have mentioned it to her Mum in the past but this was the first time that she had seen it first hand). Great dinner, watched a movie and it wasn't till bedtime that I noticed how much she had actually consumed - slightly more than half a bottle (she'd had an extra one or two I'd say). It's really very sad to see it. Why? We were having a great night and there were no blow ups and she just will not, cannot stop. Such a shame and finally I can really see what role this drinking has played in our relationship. Seriously I didn't give it all that much credence as a factor in our relationship until I came here to TAM. I mean it bugged me big time for years....but I never considered it in terms of boundaries until I discovered the affair. The thing is she has always been a bit of a flirt and with the drinking and what some people here have said, how the prolonged use can affect overall decisions even when sober. What the hell, even without the drink she would have cheated IMO.


----------



## tom67

Horizon said:


> She was visibly inebriated on the way to bed. We had a great night with her Mum staying over - a beautiful christian woman, but she was a little shocked alright (because I have mentioned it to her Mum in the past but this was the first time that she had seen it first hand). Great dinner, watched a movie and it wasn't till bedtime that I noticed how much she had actually consumed - slightly more than half a bottle (she'd had an extra one or two I'd say). It's really very sad to see it. Why? We were having a great night and there were no blow ups and she just will not, cannot stop. Such a shame and finally I can really see what role this drinking has played in our relationship. Seriously I didn't give it all that much credence as a factor in our relationship until I came here to TAM. I mean it bugged me big time for years....but I never considered it in terms of boundaries until I discovered the affair. The thing is she has always been a bit of a flirt and with the drinking and what some people here have said, how the prolonged use can affect overall decisions even when sober. What the hell, even without the drink she would have cheated IMO.


Even if she quits if she doesn't face the why she will still be a rotten dry drunk.


----------



## Horizon

I noticed that she has created an icloud e-mail account. She recently upgraded to a new iphone. Who knows what to think.... hmmm....that'd be me.


----------



## Horizon

Drinking calls the shots

After being lead up the garden path for physical intimacy all afternoon and evening, the expectation has been dashed by drinking.

This has been the pattern for years and I have worn it for the last time. Contrary to what may have been the case on odd occasions, I do not 'beg' (drop hints) for it - it is a two way street.

But once again as the drinks are consumed tiredness takes over and children have yet to go to bed. It is then very easy for my WS to do what she has done many times - I'm talking many times - and simply approach me and say "I'm going to bed".

For only the second time ever I went up and asked her what was going on. She said "the children are up, what do you want me to do?". 

In my belief a couple trying to work it out would, like a healthy couple, make concessions, adapt. No. Not ever in her case. Every night without fail she must be inebriated. Then when she is questioned attitude kicks in.

So I didn't drop the subject but said to her "why must this keep happening?". She repeated again but this time with a touch of acid "the children are up, you get them to bed...." She was in no state for anything and at that moment my daughters sleep over GF wandered past our room.

I stepped in and closed our door "When will I be part of this equation?". 'Well you get them to sleep...." Sure, right I thought and closed the door. No blow up, nothing, more of the same. A complete waste of time. I now have to find a way not to be taken in my these scraps thrown my way. (Hell, she's even taking the scraps back!)

In her false universe intimacy is thwarted by children but in reality it is drinking which calls the shots.

One step back, two fwd, onward and upward.


----------



## Shaggy

She's loving the bottle more than anyone else.


----------



## user_zero

Shaggy said:


> She's loving the bottle more than anyone else.


hmmm ....... she's kinda act like a bad teenage girl (no offense).

getting wasted. trying to be mean to who she sees as parental figure (horizon). acts irresponsible , immature , ...


----------



## Acabado

When you are a drunk any meaningful relationship (even with your own kids) is simply imposible. She can function at work, that's all.
She told you recently: she needs to drink everyday tons to cope with life, she knows, dsomehow, that's why she tiptoes alcoholism in the web. 
If you want more info there's tons of advice outhere, it's not about when she's inebriated, it's 24/7, it's a failing brain, tons of psichological issues which comes with it apart from what made her become an alcoholic to begin with. Expect nothing from her. She's just unaviable. Honestly, I get why you are here but I believe you'd be better serviced reading alcoholism websites and forums if you want to figure her out and evaluate the odds of any kind of future with her. 
Some stories about alcoholism plus infidelity? Clic here ---> For Those That Love An Alcoholic - II (follow betrayed1012's posts, he's great. There's also a part I)

I see you keep trying to engage her, expect from her... something. It's futile, stop hitting your head agaisnt the wall.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs said:


> When she crashes, and she will, you're going to be the sole support for your children. You need to be finding your next job.


I posted this on 8/27. Your recent posts make it more evident. She's going to crash and burn, and the stress of starting a new job may accelerate the process. _Your children need you to have income independent from her._ You need it for yourself too, but you and your kids will be in a world of hurt when her income drops to zero if you haven't got a job yet.

It also wouldn't hurt to have life insurance on her.


----------



## bandit.45

Shaggy said:


> She's loving the bottle more than anyone else.


Well if Horizon won't let her wh0re around, what else does she have?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

bandit.45 said:


> Well if Horizon won't let her wh0re around, what else does she have?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Over spending and then throwing on horizon's face she's the one bringing the money so he has to shut up.
Drinking, overspending, cheating, emotionaly and verbally abusing horizon... the whole picture. She's a hot mess.


----------



## Numbersixxx

bandit.45 said:


> Whiskey is my poison. It nearly killed me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is or was?


----------



## Horizon

My WS says that it will never happen again but she's an alcoholic and I have just discovered a new icloud e-mail address she has created - she has an upgraded iphone. It could be more to do with music downloads but I don't trust anything. 

When she recently screamed at me in upper case in an e-mail about what was 'really' going on with her AP and how she was trying to get rid of him I could not buy it due to the nature of the exchanges between them that I had already read numerous times.

I can't trust what she say, it just comes across as unbelievable. 

All the graphic stuff between them was just BS she says - all of it. Part of her plan to let him down slowly because she didn't know what he might do. 

This is how she said goodbye to that POS only 6 months ago.

“As I have said before, I got way, way too close to you, to the point where I seriously thought about where we could go with it. Whilst I love the idea of being able to touch you and play with you, I can't go back there, because there would come a time where it would have to end or we would be found out. I don't need that in my life right now. I need it to be all or nothing, unfortunately we can't have it all - so it needs to be nothing. It is not just to do with (wife) and you know that - I just can't have part of you only.”

She's referring to the fact that he was also f**king other women let alone being married with children. She didn't like being part of his 'harem' IMO.

Seriously are these the words of someone finally closing the door? I told her that, as a man, if this was sent to me I would see it as a massive confirmation of how deep and abiding the feelings were, how much power I had over the person and that with some little effort on my part it could all be back 'on' in an instant.

To be fair there has been no contact in more than 6 months and this was her response to his last attempt to get some more action. It is their last communication - 2 weeks before DDay. 

She says that her delayed responses to him, such as this last contact, was part of a strategy where she would push out the dates - leave it longer and longer to respond until he finally got the message. She feared what he might do - it was all BS, the lot of it, just to ensure a safe landing. I just can't buy it.

Am I that stupid that I can't see the truth in what she is trying to sell me? Am I wrong to think that all the communication I read between them suggested they were hot and heavy? She hates the suggestion by me that they were that 'deep' and gets mightily pi**ed off when I say their communication proves it. Why doesn't this woman just admit the truth???! 

What part is alcohol consumption playing in what I think is a web of outright denial?


----------



## Decorum

When she said she if afraid of what he might do, does she mean that he might tell you in some way or what beat her up?

Any idea?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> When she said she if afraid of what he might do, does she mean that he might tell you in some way or what beat her up?
> 
> Any idea?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only recently did I hear, for the first time, the "I feared he might tell you and I therefore tossed up whether I would tell you myself line". This is the 2nd explanation of what she actually feared.

In the first wave of "explanations", just after DDay, her comment was that she feared what he might do. Without her actually saying so, it implied to me that he was perhaps a jealous vengeful control freak or something. 

But seriously, I could not and still can't reconcile with these remarks. It just comes across as complete BS. I say this because when I spent the best part of an hour grilling that POS and warning him off, he came across as quietly spoken. There was nothing in his communications or anything he said to me that suggested there was anything to fear on that level.

How do I ever really believe any of it? Her default now of course is that it is pointless talking about it because I don't believe a word she says. Perfectly wrapped.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Numbersixxx said:


> Is or was?


As an alcoholic I consider my liquor of choice to be poison still even though I haven't touched it in two decades. Once you start thinking in the past tense it's too easy to let your guard down and fall into old patterns.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> What part is alcohol consumption playing in what I think is a web of outright denial?


You are confounding things, drinking, over spending, flirting, ok also cheating, yes all related.

Lying has more to do with getting caught and trying to avoid the truth and consequences with you.

Then after the lies well, its time to avoid the knock, knock, knock, of truth in her own mind, time to have another drink, cheers.




Horizon said:


> Only recently did I hear, for the first time, the "I feared he might tell you and I therefore tossed up whether I would tell you myself line". This is the 2nd explanation of what she actually feared.
> 
> In the first wave of "explanations", just after DDay, her comment was that she feared what he might do. Without her actually saying so, it implied to me that he was perhaps a jealous vengeful control freak or something.
> 
> But seriously, I could not and still can't reconcile with these remarks. It just comes across as complete BS. I say this because when I spent the best part of an hour grilling that POS and warning him off, he came across as quietly spoken. There was nothing in his communications or anything he said to me that suggested there was anything to fear on that level.
> 
> How do I ever really believe any of it? Her default now of course is that it is pointless talking about it because I don't believe a word she says. Perfectly wrapped.


It sounds like he did not have that much invested in your wife.

As she tried to pull away to rope him in, he may have threatened her just to see if it would work to control her. It was worth a try.

She may have been fearful that he was serious (I doubt he was) and tried to strategize her way out of it. It sounds like he meant more to her, then her to him.

She was variety to him, the spice of life, but no good as a staple diet, no matter how much she threw herself at him. Nice huh? That's your girl.


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> You are confounding things, drinking, over spending, flirting, ok also cheating, yes all related.
> 
> Lying has more to do with getting caught and trying to avoid the truth and consequences with you.
> 
> Then after the lies well, its time to avoid the knock, knock, knock, of truth in her own mind, time to have another drink, cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like he did not have that much invested in your wife.
> 
> As she tried to pull away to rope him in, he may have threatened her just to see if it would work to control her. It was worth a try.
> 
> She may have been fearful that he was serious (I doubt he was) and tried to strategize her way out of it. It sounds like he meant more to her, then her to him.
> 
> She was variety to him, the spice of life, but no good as a staple diet, no matter how much she threw herself at him. Nice huh? That's your girl.


Nah, I don't think there was a threat. I think it is just more BS to cover up the 'we're breaking up but come chase me' game. She has admitted to playing that game - enjoying being pursued. It's all lies.

From what I have read since DDay, the male cheaters just want to f**k and the females, well they want the emotional connection, to whatever degree for whatever exact psycho purpose. Sex can be white hot but not necessarily so as my WS maintains - I have my doubts about that.

95% of the communication from his side is about sex - all about sex and just a little bit about her being special plus whatever he said to her face to face at their "lunches". I'm sure he 'laid' it on with a trowel at those meetings.

There is a kind of romantic theme to her words in the sense that she talks about considering where they could go with it because they got so close and all the other stuff i read which is for my eyes only etc.

Honestly I think the truth is that she fell for him big time - younger, fitter, very much a fit for that shades of grey mindset. In that sense I can buy the fantasy line - that she has reflected on it after the event and can see how she bought into it and how it was very much a fantasy in that sense.

That's the bit she is trying to articulate to me. I get that. I think that now that the fog has lifted she feels like a fool. That's why she has on a number occasions expressed anger toward that POS. She let herself be sucked in and she is prepared to blame him for it and sell it back to me - hence "If I saw him now I'd smash him in the face". Would you now darling?

Yeah, she was just a conquest for him, another pin to knock over - and she knows it. He knew just what to say and when to say it - she considered his soothing words in a "hows your day?" phone call at work like a balm. And he had a good shot at keeping her in the tent even up to approaching the end of March this year

PS: By my oath I wish he had threatened her, how I wish he had.


----------



## Shaggy

Did you expose posom to his wife?


----------



## Decorum

Got it. Thx.

It was gameplaying on both sides, it seems that was to me too. (the dating game,  )


----------



## Horizon

Shaggy said:


> Did you expose posom to his wife?


Full on I did, on three occasions. I posted her a copy of the e-mail he sent to my WS, where he tried to start up again this March - that was my final contact with her and he used that as part of the application to take out an AVO against me. It failed and was dismissed in court by the magistrate.

Understandably she didn't want to talk to me nor did I push it, but I made sure she was under no illusion about the scumbag she married - the father of her children.


----------



## Thorburn

*"If I saw him now I'd smash him in the face". Would you now darling*?


My response, "Let's go over and see the bloody bloke then, my dear". And "Let me see your fighting pose, dear wife". 

Just ear tickling comments. Why they don't get it is beyond me.


----------



## Horizon

She was visibly angry but there will always be the BS component. As I said, I think any anger is because he sucked her right in and she let him do it.

She needed something to lift her out of the drudgery of a long fallow period and the pressure of children and work and that's where aholes like him thrive.

The fog lifts and she has to face what she put at stake for a bit of new. And the fog has been progressively lifting for the last few months even though she drinks and sometimes acts like a recalcitrant teenager.

Her cross to bare. I'm working out and feeling great and I'm seeing another dude today about work. Seriously I cannot believe what this exercise has done for me. It not only makes me feel physically better & stronger but mentally I feel much more capable.

Even the worn patches on my knees which were evident due to poor blood supply when the Diabetes first kicked in around 8 years ago (an early ignored sign IMO) have disappeared. I feel bloody great!


----------



## Horizon

I'm human. I'm a BS on the mend. But that doesn't stop the triggers; all of us BS's know about that. The triggers can be anywhere any time. Even watching the Aussie version of The Batchelor was a trigger - something happens in the show, a comment is made by her, I point out the hypocrisy etc. You get the picture.

I'm better than all this but sometimes it cuts. I think depression rears it's head as well. It's a few things which coalesce and you want to strike out - sometimes. But most of all you just want to move past this sh!t. But striking out in the face of having to go it alone is not a choice or an option it is part of the process I believe; particularly when the process is on one side. I mean if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

The WS has a role to play - to a degree, not as a crutch but, well, like the WS's I've read about here. They are proactively trying to do something to mend the great wound they have created.

Not my WS - she has effectively said no to talking about her affair and reigning in any spending. No, pure and simple, as I recently posted.

And when a trigger came upon me like it did last and she uttered more BS it threatened to go nuclear but it did not. We have sort of got beyond that but that is mainly because I will not let it and she is just way over it. Like yesterday's news or yesterday's fish & chips paper as we like to say (yes, thanks to our English cousins who us Aussies are very competitive with and love to take the pi** out of but who we love without exception).

And so she confirms it and even says that she "does not have to answer questions" and once again those beautiful segues headed up by "just remember who is paying the mortgage around here". 

It is quite direct now on these odd occasions when I regress from a trigger and it blows up a bit - the power plays are simple and in full bloom.

What f**king Bi*ch you are I thought last night. Just a selfish selfish person who is unable to deal with the gravity of what she has done and wants it to go away - "You need to move on. I am not going to spend the rest of my life like this. If you can't deal with it move out"

The mother of my children who has some really lovely qualities which I'm increasingly finding trouble identifying. She even made some reference to not putting our children through a situation where she would have to pay maintenance. 

Just proves that she's done all the maths - who hasn't when things look seriously shaky. But guess who even denies having those thoughts?

2 more job interviews coming up - Thank God!


----------



## ceejay93

Why haven't you filed for divorce? I'd do it before getting a job to maximize alimony/maintenance. 

I keep reading your thread in hopes of finding out why you insist on staying in that home. Your child may need a father but the child also has to learn what it means to stand up for oneself and the consequences of actions. 

Still mind-blown by how you haven't snapped. Best of luck cause this is a hell of a sh!t sandwich!


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> And so she confirms it and even says that she "does not have to answer questions"


Of course she doesn't. She knows you aren't leaving, no matter HOW disgusting she acts. She has no reason to show humility, regret, shame...nothing.


----------



## turnera

You could see a lawyer and have the lawyer start papers for her having to support you and the kids with you remaining a SAHD.


----------



## Racer

Um... I don’t hold back like that anymore. If my mind is going “What a f’n b*tch”, I tend to say it and substitute the ‘b’ word with the ‘c’ word for “impact”. I will also expand to what a fine human she’s turned into to reinforce my disdain of ‘her’ (all of her; use hand gestures ). Pure rejection of all that she has made of herself. I do end though often with a reminder of who she once was and how much I miss that person. Sort of just paint the black and white of then and now and what she allowed herself to become. There’s a reason she drinks. Does she really like herself? You might ask her....

edit; and when you say these horrible things, don't do it with an angry voice. Do it like it is a simple observation like you are describing some new species of bug you've stumbled upon.

When my wife was like that, I knew damn well that she too missed the old days of how we were. It’s just that she was trying to paint how we ended up here was my fault. I preferred to rub her nose in her own stink since she was obviously not able to smell it herself. 

Then find happier things to do with yourself and leave her sitting their in her own filth. 

Good luck with the job interviews!


----------



## Horizon

I think I've tried everything. I'm portrayed as a grumpy old man. Over 50, angry (it's what happens to men, par for the course, me the template) - even her mother who now knows about the affair (our secret) said "you need to find out who you are". She told that to her daughter as well and shared the fact with me during a H to H recently. (I thought I knew who I was before April 2012)

Even at 6am this morning I'm called intolerant (for f**ks sake, I'm working today!). Why? That f**king cat of hers. From 5.30am, if it's been in, it wants out. It starts the whole cabaret routine, meowing, play biting etc.

OK it's beaut animal but I told her what would happen - no great stretch I grew up with 7 cats. See our older cat is outside most nights. She gets this kitten because she is a mad cat lover, without any discussion with me and we, as in me, get exactly what I said would happen - disruption. She doesn't mind. She loves the f**king cat more than she's ever loved me. 

When I do my half asleep grumpy man thing which also means I am not getting up to let it out (most of the time a silent routine until she does it) and then when I dare vocalise it, as I did just now, I'm called intolerant.

All part of the same thing. She's a super hypocrite. Thrusts an animal into our dynamic because she craves that silent time, no conditions affection from the cat and f**k me for not feeling the same way all the time. I love cats but I can take it or leave it. Their fair weather friends.

Now my dog - there's a loyal friend. You'd love my dog, he actualy smiles and tries to talk. He's a legend - loves giving and receiving love. (Dig the word "loyal")


----------



## turnera

Why don't you get a litter box?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Why don't you get a litter box?


The stink - adolescent cat (ex kitten) now does it's ablutions outside like big cat. We normally have one in the laundry but we ween them off that. My attitude is leave them out all night but it's complicated - cats are nocturnal but they also kill the lizards & birds - screws up our own little eco system which I hate. My WS says "they're cats" she will not brook any criticism. 

Anyway summer has come early it was almost 39c yesterday - In October! (35c is 100 on the old scale) So the cats should be out all night hopefully. No wonder people end up living alone or alone under the same roof - no end of fights on all manner of thing.


----------



## Horizon

Pretty happy - secured another job today. So now my two jobs add up to about 22 - some weeks 25 hours. This may not seem like much but it is a vast improvement. When I secure a third job I can hopefully approach full time hours.

A padded bag arrived on my doorstep this afternoon. It was obviously for my WS. She opened it tonight - lo and behold another handbag. Very stylish bag, but another one? I just got over the very stylish handbag she bought late last year (the one prior to that is sitting unused in the garage - so now there will be two unused stylish handbags in the garage. That I am certain about).

OK, it's a girl thing. But I can't get used to it. She has two really good bags in really good condition (probably 5 if I hunted around out there) but she just has to have another one. It's like, right, I'm starting a new job so I'll spend some $ on clothes & accessories.

So it creates bad blood because she picks up on my vibe. I can't help thinking about the number of times she agreed to cut back. Another lie.

Thank God the work is coming in. She just sees me as the "rain on my parade guy". To the point now that I'm starting to think that she is deliberately throwing it in my face - tempting me to leave. ("If you don't like it, leave"!)

I'll tell you something all you BS's. I have completely lost sight of what constitutes a healthy relationship - so used to dysfunction am I.


----------



## Decorum

She is just living her life, probably not trying to piss you off.
Willingly to, maybe ignoring you but not necessarly trying to cross you, but I have been wrong before.
So what do you guess 500 to 1000 EUR for the purse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

Decorum said:


> She is just living her life, probably not trying to piss you off.
> Willingly to, maybe ignoring you but not necessarly trying to cross you, but I have been wrong before.
> So what do you guess 500 to 1000 EUR for the purse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suspect what was going through her mind when she ordered it was "F him, its my money."

Horizon, congratulations on adding more work. Keep going with improving your own situation. Remember, there's a good chance you'll end up the sole breadwinner for your kids. 

Is she keeping up with her health? Had her liver checked lately?


----------



## Decorum

NF Yeah probably.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

It's that bloody retail therapy. Another addiction. 

Alcohol, spending, need for validation (validation = potential for another affair to meet this need, particularly when she will be OS with the new job). Who knows, maybe the fantasy to be FAD'd ("f**ked and dumped") by a 20/30 something male (Magic Mike, 50 Shades of BS etc) will be sated.

These are the 3 pillars of her addictive nature.

That would be a big NO - to have her liver checked would be to get close to the reality of her alcohol dependency.


----------



## Horizon

Hello, hope you're all doing well.

I know this belongs elsewhere but I'll ask about it here. I'm thinking that a relatively functional relationship is the opposite of what I have. So what do all of you think constitutes a healthy relationship? I know it is subjective but there are some foundation stones we all share.

This whole thing has thrown me so far off track I don't know what to believe. Yes, I have improved myself out of sight but still I feel very much "out of whack" psychologically.

I have become somewhat more paranoid than I was before. I am becoming increasingly concerned about my WS going overseas early next year. All trust is gone and to me it just looks more like she is going to enjoy a jet setting business role (with all the benefits) and I remain the nanny.

By asking about a healthy relationship it helps me piece it all together by hearing the words of real people. Yes I can read a million things on line but they all come across with a sameness that bugs me.

To be honest, her new job is making me feel even more humiliated if that makes sense. I have to accept that my sense of self worth still needs a lot of work despite what I think. 

This is what cheaters don't get - the damage is profound.

After I listened to the VAR of her recent afternoon with her BGF's and the total whitewash BS spin she put on her "confession"....well it made me sick. Yeah we're working on us. Sure! (she hasn't lifted a f**king finger)

The thing that bugged me was that her GF's didn't scrutinise her much more, give her a big serve. I was wrong to expect that. They didn't condone it but they were not overly concerned either - sort of matter of fact attitude. If only they knew the half of it.

I actually lay in bed the other night seriously wondering if anything was worth the effort. I got that low. Cheaters will never get that.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Hello, hope you're all doing well.
> 
> I know this belongs elsewhere but I'll ask about it here. I'm thinking that a relatively functional relationship is the opposite of what I have. So what do all of you think constitutes a healthy relationship? I know it is subjective but there are some foundation stones we all share.
> 
> This whole thing has thrown me so far off track I don't know what to believe. Yes, I have improved myself out of sight but still I feel very much "out of whack" psychologically.
> 
> I have become somewhat more paranoid than I was before. I am becoming increasingly concerned about my WS going overseas early next year. All trust is gone and to me it just looks more like *she is going to enjoy a jet setting business role (with all the benefits) and I remain the nanny.*
> 
> By asking about a healthy relationship it helps me piece it all together by hearing the words of real people. Yes I can read a million things on line but they all come across with a sameness that bugs me.
> 
> To be honest, her new job is making me feel even more humiliated if that makes sense. I have to accept that my sense of self worth still needs a lot of work despite what I think.
> 
> This is what cheaters don't get - the damage is profound.
> 
> After I listened to the VAR of her recent afternoon with her BGF's and the total whitewash BS spin she put on her "confession"....well it made me sick. Yeah we're working on us. Sure! (she hasn't lifted a f**king finger)
> 
> The thing that bugged me was that her GF's didn't scrutinise her much more, give her a big serve. I was wrong to expect that. They didn't condone it but they were not overly concerned either - sort of matter of fact attitude. If only they knew the half of it.
> 
> I actually lay in bed the other night seriously wondering if anything was worth the effort. I got that low. Cheaters will never get that.


It looks like you're her nanny because you are. Your role in the relationship is the annoying do-gooder nanny who won't stop sticking his nose into her business (drinking, spending) and occasionally gets pouty about sex. It's not just a perception, several people in this thread have pointed out that you're her nanny, not her lover.

Paranoia? Definition 2 from the online dictionary: Extreme, irrational distrust of others. Given what you know about her behavior it's trust that would be irrational, not distrust. She has given you ample reason to suspect her and no reason to trust her.

Don't expect her girl friends to stand up for you or call her out on her bad behavior. If they were the type of people to do that she wouldn't have them as girlfriends.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> It looks like you're her nanny because you are. Your role in the relationship is the annoying do-gooder nanny who won't stop sticking his nose into her business (drinking, spending) and occasionally gets pouty about sex. It's not just a perception, several people in this thread have pointed out that you're her nanny, not her lover.
> 
> Paranoia? Definition 2 from the online dictionary: Extreme, irrational distrust of others. Given what you know about her behavior it's trust that would be irrational, not distrust. She has given you ample reason to suspect her and no reason to trust her.
> 
> Don't expect her girl friends to stand up for you or call her out on her bad behavior. If they were the type of people to do that she wouldn't have them as girlfriends.


Thanks NF, right on the money. Yep, the whole shebang remains f**ked up. 

It's extraordinary that I'm am the BS and I am having to make all the changes. I'm doing the work but she gets to remain the same. No adjustment is required from her because all is fine. 

Doesn't that mean I'm expendable? I mean, obviously.

If I can just get over it all will be fine and if I can't? "If you don't like it, leave"

I wish she would leave.


----------



## Decorum

You ask...


Horizon said:


> So what do all of you think constitutes a healthy relationship?


Well not this...


Horizon said:


> It's extraordinary that I'm am the BS and I am having to make all the changes. I'm doing the work but she gets to remain the same. No adjustment is required from her because all is fine.


or this...


Horizon said:


> I wish she would leave.



You have a long way to go. Don't lose heart, you have to keep working on you.

It is the quality of the people that make a marriage strong, their maturity and personal integrity, and relationship skills.

Your marriage is suffering from a dearth of all of these and you are a big part of the problem (but only about 50%).

Your wife working overseas scares me for you, and not just because I think she may cheat. 

It would be stressful on any marriage, no doubt, but I think it will be very hard on you and make it more difficult for you to make progress personally.

You really do believe that your happiness is at the mercy of things/people/circumstances you cannot control.

You do not have a good sense of self, you don't own your own soul.

By working on your self, the actions and decisions you need to take will be more clear to you.

What you will tolerate is determined by this self awareness and personal value.

These are cliché buss words because they are fundamental to personal growth and they are so debilitating when broke.

Keep getting help!

I like you Horizon I think I have posted as much on your thread as any I ever have, its in the top few and they are far and away from the others.

I am going to cash in those Tam credits and say the number one thing for you (without my specifying specific actions) is to keep working on you and not lose heart. See it through to the end.

Take care!


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> Hello, hope you're all doing well.
> 
> I know this belongs elsewhere but I'll ask about it here. I'm thinking that a relatively functional relationship is the opposite of what I have. So what do all of you think constitutes a healthy relationship?


Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? It will tell you exactly what a healthy marriage looks like.


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> It's extraordinary that I'm am the BS and I am having to make all the changes. I'm doing the work but she gets to remain the same. No adjustment is required from her because all is fine.


Whose fault is that? Sure as hell isn't _hers_. 


Horizon said:


> I wish she would leave.




Holy crap, Horizon. Do you even hear how pathetic you sound? Have you even _read_ No More Mr Nice Guy?

Why do YOU think you say you wish SHE would leave?


----------



## Decorum

turnera said:


> Whose fault is that? Sure as hell isn't _hers_.
> 
> 
> Holy crap, Horizon. Do you even hear how pathetic you sound? Have you even _read_ No More Mr Nice Guy?
> 
> Why do YOU think you say you wish SHE would leave?


I did not want to say this but I was thinking it.

When a child is sent to their room as a punishment and wishes their parent would just go away we can all smile because it is age appropriately immature, but in an adult male like yourself it is pathetic.

You have a long way to go before you will be a healthy marriage partner.


I want to point out one more thing. When you get beat up here a little, often (its seems to me that) you redefine what you were doing with a "come on guys I was just venting/complaining/wishing, etc and that's not how I really am"

I think you are not really facing the truth when you do this.

This immature throwback is a BIG part of your issues! Face it!


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> Whose fault is that? Sure as hell isn't _hers_.
> 
> 
> Holy crap, Horizon. Do you even hear how pathetic you sound? Have you even _read_ No More Mr Nice Guy?
> 
> Why do YOU think you say you wish SHE would leave?


It's incredibly passive. You have firmly placed yourself in the role of helpless victim. Don't be a helpless victim, be a man of action.

Stop being this guy









and start being this guy.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fist Full Of DOOMSTICK, Yeah!!!

Horizon, Until she decides to start changing for the better, your relationship isn't going to change for the better.

I would start getting p!ssed!. What she did to you is not your fault. You should not(and can't) be the one who has to try to fix it.


----------



## Racer

Horizon said:


> It's extraordinary that I'm am the BS and I am having to make all the changes. I'm doing the work but she gets to remain the same. No adjustment is required from her because all is fine.


Um... yes, she will have to change. As you distance more and more it will no longer matter to you if she thinks it’s fine. From your perception, it is not fine.



> Doesn't that mean I'm expendable? I mean, obviously.


In her head, that might be. Certainly not ‘valuable’. Thing is, you are. If you weren’t, she’d just divorce and get on with it. 


> If I can just get over it all will be fine and if I can't.


That is exactly what a rugsweeper wants to believe. They are fine letting you rot away internally as long as it doesn’t affect them. But it does affect them because it isn’t easy to just suck it up when everything about them reminds you; that’s why they blame you for things being not fine.

Try ‘accepting her terms’. Seriously, think of it like a job. Make a list of your duties and responsibilities as though she were your employer. “Best buddy” and emotional support shouldn’t be on that list. She’s your boss. Do your job well, but everything else is you living your life outside of work. Give her exactly what she claims she wants and not an ounce more. 

What happens is she has to start asking for those things she takes for granted. It’s clear she doesn’t want an equal, so it won’t work for you like that. You tell her for that kind of relationship, she needs to treat you as an equal instead of a staff member. 

Role play: You can invent whatever kind of employee you want to be. Feel free to have NSA sex with your boss if you can keep it from being some deeper sign; A man-wh0re employee, just know your place. 

Let her know what you are up to and how you are redefining the relationship. You stay emotionally detached like you would at the office. Walk away from arguments, disengage, stay distance and aloof. It can be fun... she can’t sue you for sexual harassment and you get half the company if she fires you. Just keep in mind that this is nothing more than a mental trick to plod forward without the deeper pity party... it is not a deeper relationship like a marriage should be. But it might help become that launching pad to something deeper again because it does help you see things in a different light.


----------



## carpenoctem

Horizon:

*I sometimes wish there would be some kind of an alien abduction in your home.*

That seems to be the only thing that will remove you from this toxic situation.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon, when does she start the new job and start the international travel?


----------



## Horizon

New position kicks off in 10 days. Int travel will be 2 or 3 times per year depending. Up to a week each time. Trade shows / conferences etc. First trip early 2014.

I'm full steam ahead for a full time job - anything. Bank gave us the punt for extra $ as I warned. It's what happens when you live beyond your means. 

Damn, this bad news is raining on her parade again.


----------



## 86857

Horizon. Having just read only a few bits and pieces on your thread, isn't there any way you can leave?
Is it financial? You are stay-at-home Dad? How old are the kids? If she earns more than you, she would have to pay you custody I think. I gather you are looking for a job. Is that what's preventing you?

Sorry I'm not familiar enough with your story but it feels like you are drowning in it and need to be thrown a lifebelt.
Are you at a place where you can give serious thought to leaving and getting back out into the sunshine again?


----------



## bfree

Years ago I remember my wife watching a soap opera. I recall her stepping away for several weeks and when she started watching again she really hadn't missed a thing. The characters were all still stuck in their quagmires, the overall atmosphere remained the same, even the people that were supposedly dying were still hanging on...and still dying. That is what this thread reminds me of.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I worry for you H. As per the previous post, I'm slowly catching up after some time away from TAM and I have to ask.. where is your progress?

It's good you are all out for full time work but is that all that's happening? Do you feel your making progress in yourself? As its really hard to see it from the outside.

Everything still seems to be based on how it relates to her. I'm still waiting to meet the real Horizon. He's got to be in there somewhere?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Northern Monkey said:


> I worry for you H. As per the previous post, I'm slowly catching up after some time away from TAM and I have to ask.. where is your progress?
> 
> It's good you are all out for full time work but is that all that's happening? Do you feel your making progress in yourself? As its really hard to see it from the outside.
> 
> Everything still seems to be based on how it relates to her. I'm still waiting to meet the real Horizon. He's got to be in there somewhere?


While I agree with your assessment about the lack of personal progress during this ordeal I believe the financial situation plays a large part in this. It's very common for men to have their personal identity tied up in what they do. Ask a man what he does and he'll tell you I'm a firefighter, salesman, pilot, whatever. For many men they are what they do and don't really have much else going on. In this case what Horizon does is SAHD and for want of a better word lackey to his SO, not something calculated to build self esteem. 

The reason I've pushed so much for H to get a job and separate from her is because I believe his current situation is retarding his growth. I believe once H has his own income sufficient to separate his personal growth and self confidence will explode.

Horizon, I don't mean to be insulting with anything in this post. In fact, let me take this opportunity to apologize for some of my previous posts. I deliberately insulted you on multiple occasions trying to make you angry. I thought you were way too passive and accepting of what was happening to you and thought if I could get you angry at me at least you would be stirred up and might carry that anger over to your situation. I don't think I succeeded in firing you up enough but even when I'm deliberately trying to piss someone off there's only so far I'll go.

I don't think you're a lackey or a eunuch. I think you were very deep in it and couldn't see a way out. You're starting to take steps to correct your situation. Baby steps to be sure, but progress is still progress even when incremental.


----------



## Horizon

It is very true about identity for men linked to career. It goes without saying really. Before, some years back, I was a sales manager. I wore the gear and I had the office. Circumstances removed me from that status and I worked for a further two years in sales and then became a SAHD. 

Some months back my WS's mother, after an afternoon alone chatting with her daughter, told me I needed to find out who I was (they had both agreed that this was my dilemma).

Later at a lunch this subject came up due to the fact that I had expressed having itchy feet to find full time work. It became slightly heated when my WS's mother said she did not understand the male idea that work defined you. 

I nipped the whole thing in the bud because I was about to get a little more stroppy and create a bit of a scene. Not good for a Father's Day lunch. This idea of work defining you escapes this christian woman.

But it is true for male or female. otherwise why would my WS have fallen into a rut when she was unemployed for 6 months. She admitted this to her best girlfriends. Told them she was feeling worthless and that I was incommunicado. 

And whose soothing words helped bring her out of the rut at around the same time she nailed the job she has just resigned from? 

Something else that now defines me whether I like it or not.


----------



## Horizon

And who last night has expressed virtually zero interest in the fact that the bank will not loan us further $, who would rather ritualistically read her trashy women's mags right after work than talk about it. Who said "lets wait and see how my new hours pan out". Not even a minute to discuss what is for me a very serious concern - servicing debt.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I agree, work is a big deal. I wasn't trying to downplay that.

I don't think it should get caught up on though. Back when my split went down I'd stepped down from my management post to supervisor and reduced my hours to 24 per week. Ego wise this did bother me despite having very good reasons for having done so.

Most of my healing came months before I found what in my mind and to my fragile ego, was a real job again though.

Dont put off the search for work as I agree it will be a massive boost and give you options, but likewise, don't let that search stop you making progress you could be making in the meantime.


----------



## Horizon

She doesn't like to dwell on the past. Remorse, making amends is for her like dwelling in or with the past.

My WS has not done one thing to improve us to work toward Recon. Despite her words the fact is she has done nothing.

She has a number of great things to look fwd to. New job, new car, better income, OS travel etc. etc. ....

Her strength, like others like her, is the ability to put aside anything that takes away from enjoying yourself. Just looking at me would be to experience rain on her parade I suspect.

It is my job to get my sh!t together and all will be repaired.

How can Recon exist if one half of a so called relationship is deeply wounded and battling to get themselves into shape and up to speed (whatever that is) and the other side is out there building more and more cache - acting like they are single (kind of).

I've said this here before, and this is why I have gone back to counselling, I have lost sight of what is acceptable and what is not. Which means I have lost sight of me again. This is bloody hard, I am sick to death of this struggle while she is out there kicking goal after goal.

Sorry, but right now I feel like this poor sap who is trying really hard but going nowhere. I have no idea what to expect from her.


----------



## Decorum

It is hard and you just have to keep moving and re-evaluating.

You have hope of “some kind” to come out on top of this, a better more respected you, a better marriage, etc.

I don’t know how else to say it but if this marriage doesn’t get much better and it goes away, it still will not be much worse. 

In this case the kids lose more than the BS, because the marriage is a $hit sandwich.

The good news is that it can only get better, your financial life would be the most affected, because by my reckoning you don’t have much intimacy or companionship to lose at this point.

So keep working on yourself and give the relationship your best shot, but in the end a better you is all that may emerge from this. So you have to do it for you, not the two of you, or you will keep coming to the point of wondering if it is worth it, the question is are you worth it?

Anyone who has gone through what you have would have some baggage, that is to be expected, that’s why those things are sooo evil, don’t doubt yourself, you can do it and you are worth it.

Take care!


----------



## Horizon

I'm OK, just doing a bout of depression. I never thought I would have to admit that. Even on the meds I still did not really consider myself depressive but the truth is there plain and simple. I have these days that come upon me - whether they are driven by things like her achievements and me driving heavy vehicles or the weight of her cheating; I don't know. Al I know is that I feel physically drained and cynical about everything.

That hurts a lot - she knew all this, the truth that was revealed about my father a few years back, my health issues, her own issues, our struggles. All plain to behold and she goes and has an affair for nothing but the thrill & the lift it gave her and then I get the blame & the mess to clean up. I mean what a f**king piece of work. I feel like having a revenge affair with anything just to spite her.


----------



## jack.c

my friend, often the answer is before our eyes ..... but for some reason you dont see it, but unstead you try to understand things that, at this time, are impossible to understand. I believe that only by improving yourself and trying to improve your life and ignoring everything else, you will finaly find the answer and you will have a ease of mind to make the best choices. Surely the psychological role is crucial. Stop trying to understand, start working on yourself.
I've been ther... it's not easy! But the final result will amaze you!


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> I have no idea what to expect from her.


Well, duh...more of the same!


----------



## turnera

Horizon said:


> That hurts a lot - she knew all this, the truth that was revealed about my father a few years back, my health issues, her own issues, our struggles. All plain to behold and she goes and has an affair for nothing but the thrill & the lift it gave her and then I get the blame & the mess to clean up. I mean what a f**king piece of work. I feel like having a revenge affair with anything just to spite her.


No offense, but she acts this way because you are the perfect victim. If you were more alpha and put her in her place once in a while, YOU would be attractive to her and it might be YOU she was coming on to. 

Remind me what books you have read about this?


----------



## treyvion

turnera said:


> No offense, but she acts this way because you are the perfect victim. If you were more alpha and put her in her place once in a while, YOU would be attractive to her and it might be YOU she was coming on to.
> 
> Remind me what books you have read about this?


Well, duh. Horizon knows he shouldn't be accepting of this treatments and behaviors, but he's still in the same chair.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> I'm OK, just doing a bout of depression. I never thought I would have to admit that. Even on the meds I still did not really consider myself depressive but the truth is there plain and simple. I have these days that come upon me - whether they are driven by things like her achievements and me driving heavy vehicles or the weight of her cheating; I don't know. Al I know is that I feel physically drained and cynical about everything.
> 
> That hurts a lot - she knew all this, the truth that was revealed about my father a few years back, my health issues, her own issues, our struggles. All plain to behold and she goes and has an affair for nothing but the thrill & the lift it gave her and then I get the blame & the mess to clean up. I mean what a f**king piece of work. I feel like having a revenge affair with anything just to spite her.


Yeah it a cycle of thoughts you go through, it obvious from outside the fishbowl. 

When you use up all your cognitive, emotional, or physical reserves you experience depression, in that area respectively.

The answer is to conserve and renew those energies, not to use them all up in obsessive thinking, and fretting.

It is self defeating. You have to begin to recognize that cycle and take the steps needed to stop and change it.

Working on yourself is the answer. Don't spend any time beating yourself when you get sucked back in, just recognize it and start again.

It will diminish over time if you keep at it.




treyvion said:


> Well, duh. Horizon knows he shouldn't be accepting of this treatments and behaviors, but he's still in the same chair.


trevion is right if you accept abusive treatment, it will throw you back into a self defeating cycle, you have to have your boundaries and your rational to maintain your self respect in the face of it.


----------



## treyvion

Decorum said:


> Yeah it a cycle of thoughts you go through, it obvious from outside the fishbowl.
> 
> When you use up all your cognitive, emotional, or physical reserves you experience depression, in that area respectively.
> 
> The answer is to conserve and renew those energies, not to use them all up in obsessive thinking, and fretting.
> 
> It is self defeating. You have to begin to recognize that cycle and take the steps needed to stop and change it.
> 
> Working on yourself is the answer. Don't spend any time beating yourself when you get sucked back in, just recognize it and start again.
> 
> It will diminish over time if you keep at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trevion is right if you accept abusive treatment, it will throw you back into a self defeating cycle, you have to have your boundaries and your rational to maintain your self respect in the face of it.


Alot of it is you sit in the chair by simply dealing with this person. It means they view you how they view you, they treat you as such. You can't change it.

There are things you can do to get them to look at yourself differently, and also to minimize some of their negative interactions?

Do you really want to fight through this, or can you accept that perhaps this person wants to treat you much less than you should be treated? Sometimes that's all it did, they put a label on you, and nothing you can do about it.


----------



## Decorum

treyvion said:


> Alot of it is you sit in the chair by simply dealing with this person. It means they view you how they view you, they treat you as such. You can't change it.
> 
> There are things you can do to get them to look at yourself differently, and also to minimize some of their negative interactions?
> 
> Do you really want to fight through this, or can you accept that perhaps this person wants to treat you much less than you should be treated? Sometimes that's all it did, they put a label on you, and nothing you can do about it.



Treyvion, I hope you don't think that we are at odds. If he wants to get out of the chair I would applaud.

He is doing himself no good by exposing himself to this treatment. 

We might disagree on this, I would like to see him establish himself, his self respect and financial situation, before he pulls the plug on this marriage, because I think if he waits it could end differently. ( I realize that often BS are told that they must be wiling to lose a marriage to save it, in this case I think that would just end it, I would like to see him become more desirable before he tries to leverage that.)

I think Horizon is broken form events not even related to his marriage or her betrayal.

I do not believe that he has the tools to respond to a "man up" exhortation. My intention is to help him deal with it so he can stand up.

I think he needs professional help.

We view this from a distance, and I can see a scenario where he is a very needy man who is difficult to live with. That his wife ,as you say, has labeled him as a dysfunctional person but is now willing to live with it.

However she has no reason to believe that things could get any better and so her effort reflects that.


(Nothing excuses cheating.)


We have been trying to get him to get a grip on himself, but with little success, because his issues run much deeper than just her infidelity.


So yeah I am not aiming for the money shot, if he just starts to deal with his past I would be glad, but if you can infuse something into his spine that gets him out of his chair I would be very glad form him as well.


Often the TAM methodology is to apply some well intended (can I say) insults to a BS to help wake them up.


I think that Horizon just takes it and ignores it (thinks he deserves it and is powerless to do anything about it), in a sense he is playing us a bit (the same way he plays his wife, poor me the victim), but his damage and pain are real and everyone needs an outlet.

I hope this is cogent enough to follow.

Take care!


----------



## Horizon

I come from a long line of victims and it's hard to break the mold any time let alone after 50. Do you have any idea how it feels to have an older brother call from interstate just for a modicum of love and affection, denied him all these years because he is ex-communicated? 

To hear that older brother refer to himself as a loser. All because he has lost his birth family through no fault of his own, because his marriage has recently collapsed, because he carries those same demons. For some reason he and I have it worn on our sleeves. The other siblings seemingly immune - the ability to turn from the truth and carry on; and we have each other

My WS is going on to more success and I'm starting to even resent that now. Seeing her off in her new Euro vehicle to her last day at her old job made me more aware of my lower status. I'm the woman around here, I even have the fem emotions to go with it.

I am an emotionally damaged man who has spent his life trying to fit in and right here I'm trying to be Dad and a man in a relationship and like everything else in my life it always comes apart at the seams. I don't mean to be smug but if you haven't experienced it you can't really understand it.

My personal stuff is so well covered that if I died tomorrow and left a long document about my issues most people, the few that I know, would say huh? Or then again maybe not, no one really knows anything about my inner world save my WS, a few Psychs way back and the counselor bloke I'm seeing now, who is just tapping the surface. Friends you ask? They know nothing about me.

So with all this sh!t you can see how the affair has just sent everything for me into this long tail spin. I am really trying to drag myself out of it, just the overall hell of being the BS let alone a couple of days of depression. Decorum gets it - my issues from childhood cloud everything. It is as though I am not entitled to have a normal life - whatever that is. 

Do you know that it is only recently that I can see that my wayward thinking is not the norm. I thought everyone had these perverse dark thoughts. I guess that's wrong - or it could be that we all have them to some degree but they are just not that powerful or graphic for most of us. 

When I undertook some last "snooping" on my WS's work laptop, before she handed it back this week, a discovery put me into yet another bad place. She has all these searches for expensive Gin. I'm thinking - I don't drink Gin, she's leaving her job, bingo it's for a work colleague. The kind of gift you give a work colleague - an executive gift. Right on the money.

Yes, I asked the question this morning, on her last day as she applied her make-up and doctored up her best appearance for an easy day with a goodbye lunch. Yes, she bought it for her direct boss to say thank you. OK, I went straight to red flag and thought - married man, children, Euro background....paranoia, paranoia (albeit slightly). And with her track record why would I not think that?

I was smoldering angry and I'm trying to keep a lid on it as she's getting ready to hit the road. So all of it caves in on me. It plays right into that victim thing, the hurt from way back combined with the recent hurt - hurt piled on hurt. The "you are not wanted, second rate" thing. The clear memory of my father looking at me, after a rare run-in with my Mother, and saying "I don't like you". It's all that sh!t. The massive insecurity kicks in, the couldn't get to sleep until 2am this morning tiredness kicks in - I felt like I wanted to destroy something.

And that's what has been happening all my life - anyone who even smacks of success / power makes me feel intimidated. And that young woman I met years ago who hadn't been anywhere, who knew one fifth of f**k all but whose raw intelligence has kept her in good stead is now one of them. I'm inhaling the vapor trail of success as she turns the corner.

I deserve transparency, I deserve a human being who would be sensitive enough to know that keeping anything from me is a mistake in these circumstances. I deserve a human being who would think that our finances are so tight that a card would have been more appropriate than a bottle of expensive Gin. Even if a bottle of Gin is a nice, networking imbued gesture (who knows who you will be working for one day right?) I think it was wrong. But yes, it's a threat, another symbol of the threats I feel.

Yes, I'm indulging here and ranting, and I have to stay focused and make it about me but it is almost impossible. I haven't given up but I am so sick of this constant flow of negative energy - a lifetime of self hatred and then 6 months of betrayal layered over the top - well, it's just madness. It is a wonder that I haven't topped myself.

Maybe that's the only good thing I received from that deeply damaged man I called my Father. After those 2 months of hand to hand bloody carnage with the Japs, as they were pushed south from Malaya, after the calamity of surrender on Singapore Island in 1942 to their ultimate imprisonment in Changi and then the horror of the death march - 18 months of building that damn Burma / Siam railway. Starved, beaten, tortured, worked to death - murdered. And he makes it back to Changi, one of the walking skeletons, the shadows of men.

"Just keep putting one foot in front of the other" he said. When they were at their lowest they had a melodic refrain which echoed through the railway cuttings "Are we down-hearted? No!". 

Much as the man hurt me and our family I always think - If he could live through that then I can live through this.


----------



## illwill

Wow.


----------



## turnera

Jesus Christ, Horizon. Just do whatever it takes so you can get some REAL help from a real psychologist and learn to deal with your dysfunctional childhood. You deserve to have a real life. But you aren't going to get that without going in for real help.


----------



## Horizon

I am turnera. I had a really good session with my Psych yesterday.

I've had a bit of a 'shocker' this week, as in shocking. The overall thing with me is deep insecurity and the affair hit it out of the park.

I am working on me, on my issues from childhood.


----------



## turnera

Very glad to hear it.


----------



## Horizon

It might seem obvious but I am having to start from scratch to identify what I can and cannot change. I have been a control freak about everything - I didn't realise I was so deep in it - on every aspect.

example - my daughter is a such a slob that she lost both pairs of her glasses within her bedroom. I found one pair by accident, mixed in the with her clothing strewn everywhere, almost crushing them underfoot. The other pair is somewhere in there yet to be found as the clean-up is not complete. I went 'on guard' warning everyone to tread carefully plus I was worrying about the cost of replacing them as our finances are shot (not even sure the other pair is in there). 

I have to learn (practice) to let it go - let what will be actually be. Not abrogate my responsibility as a parent but accept that some things just have to play out without my input. The consequences battle with my daughter (cleaning out her room once a week) is still being played out and that battle has to be met but even then I have to find that centre. Up against my partner on this matter I seem to be too OTT about that. I'm not dropping my line on responsibility but just trying to take the drama out of it. I'll get there.


----------



## Decorum

We have some things in common Horizon both in insecurities and history.

Its varies for everyone but when I stopped guessing what people were thinking about me it changed my life. I did not even realize how self defeating it was.

Now that was near 30 years ago (with many other realization of course, its a marathon not a sprint) but I am fundamentally different as a result, honestly its not even on my list anymore. I know progress is possible if a man or woman will only take the needed steps.

Im so glad to hear that your session went well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

How old is your daughter?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> How old is your daughter?


12 going on 17 - you get the picture.


----------



## Horizon

Decorum said:


> We have some things in common Horizon both in insecurities and history.
> 
> Its varies for everyone but when I stopped guessing what people were thinking about me it changed my life. I did not even realize how self defeating it was.
> 
> Now that was near 30 years ago (with many other realization of course, its a marathon not a sprint) but I am fundamentally different as a result, honestly its not even on my list anymore. I know progress is possible if a man or woman will only take the needed steps.
> 
> Im so glad to hear that your session went well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I worry way too much and let things out of my control control me. Obviously the big one of late has been the sh!t storm my WS brought into our lives.

I have to actively, sometimes moment to moment, observe how I'm falling into the same trap I have been for years. It's hard work applying new behavior - undoing a life time of programming. 

I have always believed that you can teach an old dog new 'tricks' - now I'm trying to prove it. Knowing when to hold them or fold them.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> 12 going on 17 - you get the picture.


Oh, your d has reached the age where you suddenly become stupid and just don't understand. In 10 years you'll suddenly become smart and understanding again.


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> Oh, your d has reached the age where you suddenly become stupid and just don't understand. In 10 years you'll suddenly become smart and understanding again.


Yes, I'm the stupid one alright. But it's beautiful to watch. She's so sharp and happy, nothing phases my daughter. She inhales life. And at 12 there are still those moments when she wants to be a little girl again and just be held - and we are there for that as well, whenever she wants it. I love her so much I could never adequately describe it with words. Having children is a special privilege


----------



## Horizon

PS: my daughter is pushing 6' - not so little. We get our height early in my family.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> PS: my daughter is pushing 6' - not so little. We get our height early in my family.


Well, I'm 46 years old and I'm starting to think I'm never going to hit 6'. I'm still hoping though.:smthumbup:


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> Well, I'm 46 years old and I'm starting to think I'm never going to hit 6'. I'm still hoping though.:smthumbup:


High heels maybe?


----------



## doubletrouble

You bump your head a lot more when you're tall (6'6" here, scars to prove it).


----------



## Horizon

doubletrouble said:


> You bump your head a lot more when you're tall (6'6" here, scars to prove it).


Reminds me of a funny story

Years back in Japan i was walking up the stairway at a nightclub with a friend of mine; kind of like a fire escape - the ceiling was really low and at each platform before you turn to the next flight there was a sign hanging "Look Up - Your Head". We laughed about that for days because my friend was taller than me and he whacked his head on the way up. But the weird English phrasing was the funniest bit.


----------



## doubletrouble

I always snickered at the British road signs "Road Hump" and the Underground "Mind the Gap".... Oh and the road sebras. 

Even in English, depending on where you're from, signs can take on a whole new meaning.


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## loopy lu

I cant believe I just read that whole thread. 
Now I need brain bleach. 

Horizon, this **** is TOXIC, and is poisoning your children (it is - no ****. IM a child of infidelity, I KNOW!).

Protect your kids and their future. Teach your son how to be a man and teach your daughter about how to have non-dysfunctional relationships with men. GROW A PAIR!

If you want them to have ANY kind of idea about properly functioning relationships you will pack them up and get them out. 

I know sure as **** you cant do it for yourself....but maybe for them?????


----------



## Horizon

Ever-Man said:


> Horizon, you have an opening here to "save" your marriage, or relationship is more acurate, and if you are not financially independent I suggest you hatch a plan to save your marriage and start a double-life of your own, setting yourself up for an exit when your kids are older, or when you have had enough.
> 
> Many TAMers will tell you to divorce immediately, and if the marriage is OVER that is good advice, but if you have a spouse expressing remorse and love for you, there are many other options, all depend on what you want.
> 
> There are many degrees of infidelty of varying types of seriousness, in my opinion your spouses is a 7 degree serious (10 being the most), whereby there were elements of love, sex and degradation of the marriage and ongoing lies even after the affair was recovered. With this kind of affair you need to protect yourself and think of yourself as "half done" with this woman, who seems very selfish and dangerous. You can reconcile with this kind of person, but disingenously, don't make yourself vulnerable to her every again, and always be on the lookout. However, she seems good for sex, and as a bread-winner, do enough to keep her and use her to these means. don't tell her your using her, but tell her you love her. LIE, and say your totally forgive her (you never should) and trust her and understand how hard this is for her (these should be all lies, she is a looser).
> 
> The other half of you should start making a plan to leave when the kids are a bit older, or you are more ready. This plan kept totally to yourself will build your confidence, you will turn yourself into your best ally; while the wife, she is to be used for your needs, play her for all you can.
> 
> When you feel somewhat recovered, and the marraige is a bit more stable, you should start looking for a more suitable spouse.
> 
> Good luck, enjoy using your wife and lying to her in the same manner she lied to you. You will feel A LOT better, and sleep well!!


This is happening now - I'm in the slot for a new job. Slowly the pieces are coming together. Don't know if you are around Ever-man but it's happening.


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## puzzled1

wow! I've just spent the better 1/2 of my day (should be working!), reading your battles. Although I'm female, I can say I have been walking in your shoes for the past 3 years. My 19YO daughter caught her dad in an exlpicit convo with a co-worker. I held all this in through the holidays, and then found the receipt for the flowers and bracelet he'd given her. (spent more on her than he did me!) No signs of unhappiness from him prior, but Yeah, he blamed me for his affair, and said he felt unwanted, undermined, like his opinion didn't matter.(although he resented the duties of being a father for anything more than the public image). He appeared truly remorseful, we did the whole counseling route, but I was repeatedly warned by the counselors that he was lying about the length of the affair, and the involvement. He claimed, and still does that it was only 3 months, and was only an emotional affiar with "some touching". I pleaded with him to just throw it all out on the table - about OW and any others and he emphatically denied there were any others, and that he NEVER had intercourse with her. Yeah, this is about the time the counselors said he was going to take this to his grave. 
Three years foward, I happened upon the OW's Facebook page, and for some reason, she decided to make it completely public. I found comments on her page which would imply that the A was actually right about 1 year. I don't know any man who would obstain from sex in an affair for a full year! Do you?
He doesn't know I know this, but I've been told by another former co-worker that he continued to see OW up until about 6 months ago. NO body will say anything to the betrayed, but funny how when people start getting laid off, the communication opens up. He works for an Australia-based company ironically! 
Anyway, just recently, this OW moved north of us (6-7 hour drive), The weekend she moved (in with her new boyfriend),and spouse was melancholy as hell, fidgety and seemed uber drepressed. While I knew why, I didn't mention to him as he would have denied it. 

We have talked on several occasions about the affiar and he insists, every time, that it was a mistake, as he was feeling unwanted, and that he was NOT in love with her. Three weeks ago, I ran into a co-worker of his who seemed like she needed to vent. Told me she just doesn't care anymore, and that he'd had an affair with another co-worker 8 years into our marriage, and, had propositioned a direct report employee 8 yrs ago, and she ended up resigning her position due to his constant harassment. he reports to the Cheif counsel of the co - great person to have in your back pocket! I invested in a few covert VAR's and although I've yet to hear anything about this latest affair partner, I did hear undeniable proof that he is a serial cheater, planning to get him some while on a guys trip to Vegas. Also a convo he had with his sister about how he can't listen to certain songs, because she broke his heart. now wait a minute, that shouds more like SHE dumped YOU!! My situation is like yours in that I was out of work, and felt stuck - but truly loved him too. All this info just threw me right back to Dday. Now gainfully employed, I feel much more confident, although I am living the torn feeling of wanting to trust, yet snooping and playing detective daily. So I feel for you. The other day, my (grown) daughter sent me these words from a song , and what an eye opener it was: 


I was your cure
you were my disease
I was saving you
while you were killing me.

It seems as though you may also have a serial cheater, based on your posts. You need to get out now. It's not going to get any better. Much strength to you and I hope you are able to come out of this shining!


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## Horizon

We are through. Massive argument. 'you're always angry", "i hate you" "you and your depression' "you always undermine my successes" 'Go and live with your depressed brother" (then an underhanded comment about he and I having a gay thing - stupid joke) - all of this in front of our son. Her throwing around Effs like confetti & using the C word once. Telling me I drove her to drink. She hates my guts, thinks I'm an old angry depressed bastard who is ruining her life. When she is angry that is it - no holds barred. I admit I must be a mongrel to live with - I'm not happy, haven't been for a long time. Mocked me for having the bad luck to have grown up with the father that I did. After I argued that she was in love with the bottle she told me that I was having a relationship with my mother and that I always chose my M over her. A bit odd because I remembered she had major issues with her ex-husbands mother. I almost felt she was talking about her ex's mother. I am starting to really get how f**ked up my relationships are because of my upbringing - I am bringing this same sh!t to the table each time. Unfortunately my WS is not able to look at herself and see what part of the toxic mix she is contributing. She ranted about me leaving her alone and how she does not need to be told how to be or how to live....same old sh!t. It's all old ground, boring I know. Even my contribution to the household, my parenting, everything was brought into question. History re-writes the whole kit and kaboodle. My 5 years of driving were questioned because I was only doing 25 hours per week and she had to get the children off to school and apparently I used to come home and say how tired I was and just sit there....it's never that simple and nothing I say will change a thing. It proves that she has firm ideas about me as a human being and will not resile from them. When I told her that much of my anger and issues were exacerbated due to the affair it was scoffed at. there is no remorse, nothing - just resentment that I dare to raise the Affair as something that is simmering away. "get over it, it was nothing" and the new one - "it happens all the time" Wow. Anyway I'm f**ked up but still standing.


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## Horizon

She is totally unrepentant, she has nothing to repent, 'I am never going to be the woman you want me to be"

"I am making something of my life"

"You can't deal with the fact that you were given no guidance"

This woman thinks I am a complete loser. She actually can't stand the sight of me. When her anger is up out it comes - all guns blazing "Fu*k you, you c**t!. I hate you!!"

She maintains the house is hers. Unbelievable, she even pulled the new higher income line on me "I'm earning ..... a year now...." Sickening. I won't bother with all the other crap lines - you've heard it all before.

I have made zero impact on her - her lack of respect for me is so low it is off the page. I'm just this annoying house mate - minus the mate bit. Yeah i know "Old territory"

PS: this all blew up because I had disciplined the children after school and when she cam home from work she didn't really want to hear the anger that i still had. She asked me that dumb cliched question - "Did you have a bad day". I actually had a great day so later when I expressed the fact that the anger she could sense in me was, at a deeper level, because i was still pissed about the fact that she would not face up to and talk about the affair, well, she exploded.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Tell me you're not really going to leave the house. Please.


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## Acabado

Keep putting your hand in the fire... you will keep getting burned.
Masochism?
Why didn't you get your kids and go for a walk instead of subjecting yourself and them to her abusive drunken rants scapes me.
Did you ever talk to a lawyer? What do he/she say about the potential outcomes if you file now?
This is such unhealthy enviroment for the entire family...


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## turnera

Are you at the lawyer's office right now?

And PLEASE don't let your son hear that again. Show some strength and take him away next time.


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## warlock07

Horizon, this is not meant to be snappy or a snark but there were no new revelations in your recent posts.


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## Horizon

There hasn't been a blow out for some time. The thing is she has now outright said that affairs are nothing, no big deal, common place. In essence she condones affairs and that obviously tells me she is primed to do it again. Just as multiple TAmers have said from day one - she will do it again.

If she was unhappy enough to do it once then she is more than unhappy enough now to start up all over again.

I am not leaving this house as I have said many times. That would suit her just fine now that her Father has passed and her Mother has the time to be here if needed. 

One of the things I feared most, a personal bugbear of mine that I have to learn to get over - the status war - finally has fully blossomed. My contributions as a Father & child rearer & Housekeeper amount to zip. I am not on the chart in any respect of career, income, appeal. I will never match it with younger executive blokes in sharp suits.

I have to find that in me. That is a tough one but I have to find that self respect, that confidence.

Last night. at one point, she said "OK sit down what do you want to know, I'll answer questions. I've got nothing to lose". I told her I wouldn't give her the satisfaction. After the horse has bolted she sarcastically wants to offer up something because it doesn't matter.

Her pride, her no holds barred self preservation is something to behold.


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## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> There hasn't been a blow out for some time. The thing is she has now outright said that affairs are nothing, no big deal, common place. In essence she condones affairs and that obviously tells me she is primed to do it again. Just as multiple TAmers have said from day one - she will do it again.
> 
> If she was unhappy enough to do it once then she is more than unhappy enough now to start up all over again.
> 
> I am not leaving this house as I have said many times. That would suit her just fine now that her Father has passed and her Mother has the time to be here if needed.
> 
> One of the things I feared most, a personal bugbear of mine that I have to learn to get over - the status war - finally has fully blossomed. My contributions as a Father & child rearer & Housekeeper amount to zip. I am not on the chart in any respect of career, income, appeal. I will never match it with younger executive blokes in sharp suits.
> 
> I have to find that in me. That is a tough one but I have to find that self respect, that confidence.
> 
> Last night. at one point, she said "OK sit down what do you want to know, I'll answer questions. I've got nothing to lose". I told her I wouldn't give her the satisfaction. After the horse has bolted she sarcastically wants to offer up something because it doesn't matter.
> 
> Her pride, her no holds barred self preservation is something to behold.


So what did the lawyer say on your consultation?


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## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> So what did the lawyer say on your consultation?


I haven't seen a lawyer. I haven't got the money for that, but I will research my rights. I'm staying here.

It's outrageous. The BS, in my case anyway, does all the work. Change how I dress, style my hair, work out. She does nothing, doesn't have to. Doesn't need to change. Can't change.

Our relationship is beyond over.

I'm not really upset, just a little tired this morning. I'm resigned to the fact that it is kaput - we will have to co-exist for the time being. I'm just going to do what I have always done in relation to my children and remain as polite as I can be.

The penny has finally dropped with me that she genuinely does not care to build on anything. She thinks that things will magically improve over time without her input. Her earning the big bucks is enough.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> I haven't seen a lawyer. I haven't got the money for that, but I will research my rights. I'm staying here.
> 
> It's outrageous. The BS, in my case anyway, does all the work. Change how I dress, style my hair, work out. She does nothing, doesn't have to. Doesn't need to change. Can't change.
> 
> Our relationship is beyond over.
> 
> I'm not really upset, just a little tired this morning. I'm resigned to the fact that it is kaput - we will have to co-exist for the time being. I'm just going to do what I have always done in relation to my children and remain as polite as I can be.
> 
> The penny has finally dropped with me that she genuinely does not care to build on anything. She thinks that things will magically improve over time without her input. Her earning the big bucks is enough.


Your done.

See if you can do a non-contested divorce and get this boat anchor from around your neck.


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## turnera

I'll wager that you can file some sort of form that forces HER to pay for YOUR lawyer, since she is the breadwinner.


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## Horizon

turnera said:


> I'll wager that you can file some sort of form that forces HER to pay for YOUR lawyer, since she is the breadwinner.


I'm checking things out tomorrow morning. Just to be clear on my rights. I don't know what will be possible under the same roof. It will always have de-facto status if we are at the same address I guess.


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## Decorum

Horizon said:


> We are through. Massive argument. 'you're always angry", "i hate you" "you and your depression' "you always undermine my successes" 'Go and live with your depressed brother" (then an underhanded comment about he and I having a gay thing - stupid joke) - all of this in front of our son. Her throwing around Effs like confetti & using the C word once. Telling me I drove her to drink. She hates my guts, thinks I'm an old angry depressed bastard who is ruining her life. When she is angry that is it - no holds barred. I admit I must be a mongrel to live with - I'm not happy, haven't been for a long time. Mocked me for having the bad luck to have grown up with the father that I did. After I argued that she was in love with the bottle she told me that I was having a relationship with my mother and that I always chose my M over her. A bit odd because I remembered she had major issues with her ex-husbands mother. I almost felt she was talking about her ex's mother. I am starting to really get how f**ked up my relationships are because of my upbringing - I am bringing this same sh!t to the table each time. Unfortunately my WS is not able to look at herself and see what part of the toxic mix she is contributing. She ranted about me leaving her alone and how she does not need to be told how to be or how to live....same old sh!t. It's all old ground, boring I know. Even my contribution to the household, my parenting, everything was brought into question. History re-writes the whole kit and kaboodle. My 5 years of driving were questioned because I was only doing 25 hours per week and she had to get the children off to school and apparently I used to come home and say how tired I was and just sit there....it's never that simple and nothing I say will change a thing. It proves that she has firm ideas about me as a human being and will not resile from them. When I told her that much of my anger and issues were exacerbated due to the affair it was scoffed at. there is no remorse, nothing - just resentment that I dare to raise the Affair as something that is simmering away. "get over it, it was nothing" and the new one - "it happens all the time" Wow. Anyway I'm f**ked up but still standing.


Humm!
I responded to your pm before I caught up on you thread.

This was a nasty and painful fight.

IDK take the time you have left to deal with yourself, and become a better person to live with.

Purpose, firm boundaries, confidence. 

This is a bootcamp for life, many Bs's come out of this a better person, if you do anything get that done.

You will have gained something even if your marriage ends.

Some people are energy givers, others are energy takers and drain you, there has to be a give and take, but if not then don't try to take, detach and find purpose elsewhere.

Keep in touch.


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## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> I haven't seen a lawyer. I haven't got the money for that, but I will research my rights. I'm staying here.
> 
> It's outrageous. The BS, in my case anyway, does all the work. Change how I dress, style my hair, work out. She does nothing, doesn't have to. Doesn't need to change. Can't change.
> 
> Our relationship is beyond over.
> 
> I'm not really upset, just a little tired this morning. I'm resigned to the fact that it is kaput - we will have to co-exist for the time being. I'm just going to do what I have always done in relation to my children and remain as polite as I can be.
> 
> *The penny has finally dropped with me that she genuinely does not care to build on anything. She thinks that things will magically improve over time without her input.* Her earning the big bucks is enough.


Horizon,

The "penny dropped" months if not years ago. You just haven't wanted to admit it _or_, perhaps in some strange way, you actually derive some kind of comfort from your situation. Could it be that you have pretended for so long that there was hope for your relationship -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- because it meant that you could continue to put off doing something about your miserable life?

Also, stop kidding yourself that _"he thinks that things will magically improve over time."_ She doesn't think this. She hates your guts and will drop you like worn out shoe the first chance she gets. When you think things like this, it only reinforces your foolish belief that somehow your relationship with her will survive. It won't. Accept that. And then do something about it.

You need help: legal help, psychiatric help, al-anon help, all kinds of help. Please, please, please, get it.


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## Horizon

And it gets more difficult, with her holding the trump.

I am in the slot for this new driving job but that means early starts which clash with what her new job requires - time wise. It means our children would be on their own to get themselves ready and off to school.

It means that she cannot guarantee she can be here to whip them off to school and then get to the office on time. Further complicated by the fact that she has not even completed her first week and already they want her in early for a hook up conference call with the US tomorrow.

I can't win. I'm meant to go for a medical today and what's the point? I feel compelled to push the button and just say well I'm doing this and you will have to be here but we cannot afford to jeopardise her huge income or we risk losing our house.

What a f**k up.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> And it gets more difficult, with her holding the trump.
> 
> I am in the slot for this new driving job but that means early starts which clash with what her new job requires - time wise. It means our children would be on their own to get themselves ready and off to school.
> 
> It means that she cannot guarantee she can be here to whip them off to school and then get to the office on time. Further complicated by the fact that she has not even completed her first week and already they want her in early for a hook up conference call with the US tomorrow.
> 
> I can't win. I'm meant to go for a medical today and what's the point? I feel compelled to push the button and just say well I'm doing this and you will have to be here but *we cannot afford to jeopardise her huge income or we risk losing our house.*
> 
> What a f**k up.


Not "our" house, her house. Yes, I remember the 30k you put into the house but you're going to be out on the street with nothing if you don't nut up. 

Is she going to lose that job? No. Why do I say her job is safe? Because I don't believe you'll actually do anything. You're already coming up with excuses to remain her b!tch.


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## turnera

How old are your kids?


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## Horizon

turnera said:


> How old are your kids?


12 & almost 10

this is not an excuse! I would love to say to my daughter "hey, here are the house keys, take over" - but that is irresponsible and, as you parents know, no guarantee that she could get rocking and rolling herself let alone rouse out her younger brother and having to depart at different times. You can drop the children at school before 8.15am - though some squeeze 8.00am. That's even with the clothes and lunches done the night before. I'm not saying they wouldn't give it a shot but there is a risk that we haven't taken before and their mother isn't keen because she is caught up with a new job and her own concerns for the children's safety.


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## turnera

You can apply for jobs that let you start work at 9 or 10.


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## Horizon

turnera said:


> You can apply for jobs that let you start work at 9 or 10.


Of course! And I appreciate your words - the problem has been that I can snaffle up Driving jobs but they demand early starts. Anything with more 'normal' hours is as rare as Hen's teeth, particularly leading into Xmas. I'm attached to a number of employment agencies for this very thing. I just have to remain positive and know the opening will be there soon.

ps - we are in separate rooms, no kisses hello or goodbye - nothing (which is fine by me), just polite words concerning practical family / home matters. 

The family trip OS early next year will be OK, I can share a room with my son. She demanded I not go when we had the blow up the other night but naturally I told her where she could 'go' on that matter - wouldn't miss it for the world just to see the looks on my children's faces.

As infamous Aussie criminal Ned Kelly said just before he was hanged - "such is life"


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## Horizon

Just wondering - should I be concerned about the new icloud e-mail address? I know my WS is hooked up with Apple for a variety of reasons - down loading music for phones & ipods but should this be of concern? I discovered the fact a few weeks back. I wondered if an icloud e-mail address was automatic given what she has been setting up with Apple.


----------



## Decorum

Once again I sent an pm before I caught up on the thread. oops.

I think she has moved to the point emotionally where she can envision the end of your marriage.

And no I dont think she has been there all the time!

When a woman throws that switch it's hard to come back from.

I am going to stay with some of my suggestions in my Pm, its depends on where you want this to go.


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## 86857

You should be able to get free legal aid. 
You are not necessarily 'de facto' if you are under the same roof.
In Australia, you have to be separated for 12 months before you can divorce. You can live under one roof i.e.separated if you can prove that you aren't living as husband and wife, separate bedrooms, not socialising together etc. You have to sign an affadavit. 
What about getting a forklift licence? About $500 but apparently there's lots of work available. Usually 8:00am start I think. Maybe some night shifts available too. 
Just a thought.


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## happyman64

Horizon said:


> Just wondering - should I be concerned about the new icloud e-mail address? I know my WS is hooked up with Apple for a variety of reasons - down loading music for phones & ipods but should this be of concern? I discovered the fact a few weeks back. I wondered if an icloud e-mail address was automatic given what she has been setting up with Apple.


Many of us Apple users with .me addresses were automatically given .iCloud addresses..........


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Horizon said:


> Just wondering - should I be concerned about the new icloud e-mail address? I know my WS is hooked up with Apple for a variety of reasons - down loading music for phones & ipods but should this be of concern? I discovered the fact a few weeks back. I wondered if an icloud e-mail address was automatic given what she has been setting up with Apple.


I don't know about you, but she should be a little worried.

If she's storing the only copies of the kids pictures, she should have a hard drive back up at home. I've read a few horror stories of people loosing all there data and not have it all backed up at home.

And there's the hackers... After all it's a cloud, not a safe.


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## Horizon

Gotta say this detachment is empowering, not in a cynical way but in a genuine sense of mental balance. I feel right in what I'm doing. Being in separate rooms is not entirely comfortable but it is the right place to be. 

There is no spark, no remorse which is par for the course. Nothing has changed there. I am doing this for me and the children (but mostly for me TBH). 

Part of this is a genuine desire to take pressure off her as well. The idea that I was a thorn in her side was just another aspect of the dysfunction. I don't need that for myself and if it helps with the calm around here it is good. And that is what is happening. 

It is a little scary, wondering about the future, what 2014 holds in store for our family but I'm up to it. I think the argument the other night was the straw that broke the camel's back. I could finally really see that she was incapable of any change - that in the scheme of things I really wasn't that important to her to the degree that she would do whatever it takes.

We are getting on OK though - just not "getting it on". Which is fine by me. Tellingly I have lost that lust thing as well. I am hoping that this is not some sort of phase but rather a genuine maturing for me psychologically. I suppose my background of insecurity and self doubt makes me think it is a bit of an act but I feel quite calm and centred about it all. That must be good.

She may still crash and burn from this detachment - i am wondering about that, but I could be wrong. Yet another thing I have no control over and nor should I. 

The really concerning thing for me is if we will be able to keep this home. She doesn't seem concerned that we are so close to the precipice.


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## turnera

Pretty common - the BS finally starts to detach, which brings the WS back, but usually too late.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> Gotta say this detachment is empowering, not in a cynical way but in a genuine sense of mental balance. I feel right in what I'm doing. Being in separate rooms is not entirely comfortable but it is the right place to be.
> 
> There is no spark, no remorse which is par for the course. Nothing has changed there. I am doing this for me and the children (but mostly for me TBH).
> 
> Part of this is a genuine desire to take pressure off her as well. The idea that I was a thorn in her side was just another aspect of the dysfunction. I don't need that for myself and if it helps with the calm around here it is good. And that is what is happening.
> 
> It is a little scary, wondering about the future, what 2014 holds in store for our family but I'm up to it. I think the argument the other night was the straw that broke the camel's back. I could finally really see that she was incapable of any change - that in the scheme of things I really wasn't that important to her to the degree that she would do whatever it takes.
> 
> We are getting on OK though - just not "getting it on". Which is fine by me. Tellingly I have lost that lust thing as well. I am hoping that this is not some sort of phase but rather a genuine maturing for me psychologically. I suppose my background of insecurity and self doubt makes me think it is a bit of an act but I feel quite calm and centred about it all. That must be good.
> 
> She may still crash and burn from this detachment - i am wondering about that, but I could be wrong. Yet another thing I have no control over and nor should I.
> 
> The really concerning thing for me is if we will be able to keep this home. She doesn't seem concerned that we are so close to the precipice.


This detachment was reality induced (not the typical 180 type) which means that you were forced by circumstances to face reality.

That's not bad but be aware that you may still be the caboose and your feelings the engine.

How intentional will it be from here?

The path you see ahead of you is really only one option, you have choices. You just have to take the right decisions if you want to head in a given direction. So far as it depends on you.

Horizon,
The "thorn in her side" comment made me wince. I am concerned that you may be referring to what I said in my Pm's.

Those were just some things for you to work on as a person, regardless of your relationship status.

The empowerment you feel is real, the sense of freedom is real, but it is a freedom and empowerment from the things that hinder you, not from her.

I hope you can ride that to a better self-concept that does not just "let" things happen to you, things that the "universe" does to you.

Horizon, I believe that because of your past you tend toward an External Locus of Control (as opposed to an Internal locus), Google this, if it rings true then spend some time with it, maybe ask your counselor about it. 

You are not in a bad place, but its a starting place not a destination, you will need to review your options and decide where you should go from here.

Take care!


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## Horizon

After a solid week of 'positive' detachment my WS wanted to talk last night. She told me that the last week was the best she had felt for a long time. For roughly 8 years in fact! (me being SAHD for just about 8 yrs coincidentally).

She thought that we had really got along very well - we talked and there was zero pressure (we always have good conversation). That was the thing. Since I detached she has felt zero pressure to do anything or be anything for me. She has not felt compelled to behave in the way I have made her feel she should behave. I have been doing this in one way or another for many years.

Based on this last week she felt closer to me and alluded to the fact that she felt that she could explore intimacy with me. There was more natural connection and therefore attraction.

She expressed remorse for her decisions - expressed regret and told me how badly she had f**ked up.

She did go on to dig around in the past and say how even though I had worked for those years as a driver that she had to get the children off to school and was often cooking in the evening and getting them off to bed - particularly our problematic son who didn't sleep properly for the first three years (a fact that has not been given enough weight in terms of those years and lack of sleep and the pressure it brought to bare on the both of us)

I countered with two things: 1 - I didn't want to dig around in the past because it lead to arguments and I was over it. 2 - she was correct but I had to remind her that I had to learn, to grow, to put in. That I was not conscious of my contribution, thinking I was doing OK. And that in the end I have completely taken up the baton, so to speak, adapted and had for years now been doing all that. I was illustrating that we had evolved in time, that we had worked it out.

But of course neither of us were happy. We paid a terrible price for our evolution together.

In the end she told me that she did not know what it was - whether I had just said "F**k it all" or something else was motivating me but that what ever it was she felt the pressure had disappeared and she could just be herself.

I think I mentioned (possibly to Decorum in my PM) that I was conscious of removing pressure from my WS, that that would be a factor of my detachment though not the primary motive. So that has been a positive for sure.

In any case I told my WS that I couldn't be exactly sure but it all felt very natural to me after our last blow up. I chose without vindictiveness to separate under the same roof, to put that distance between us, but primarily for myself.

And further, that "F**k it all" was a component of my thinking. That I genuinely did not know what 2014 held for us but that it was going to be a great year for me - with or without her. She accepted this.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon,


I think things are exactly what they seem to be here. I would not second guess anything about this.

This way of being is actually a natural state for a man even though it feels uncertain and awkward at the moment for you.

I knew a pastor once (he was a friend) who said he figuratively walked around with his resignation in his back pocket, this empowered to maintain impartiality in all the politics that go on in a church. (There are actually tremendous pressures on a pastor, don't let anyone tell you differently)

Listen, keep that attitude (don't be rude, at least to start with) but be clear in your own thinking, it frees and empowers you, and that makes you sexy btw.

Mr. Pendulum, I think you have been so far one way that the middle point seems like its way on the other side, it's not it just feels that way, I know where of I speak here.

Its like learning a new dance, but after a while it starts to come naturally.

Once you let that genie out of the bottle it does not go back in easily, so hang in there for some time.

You still have options but you are learning a very valuable lesson here, explore this, and find the boundaries so that it feels normal.

I am really quite glad for you. Take care!


----------



## Racer

Decorum said:


> Once you let that genie out of the bottle it does not go back in easily, so hang in there for some time.


Yep... I called it Pandora's box. She made the massive mistake of making me face my insecurities and fears where they were no longer a potential threat, but becoming real. These same fears is what had kept me in check trying to please and appease her. There came a point where you can no longer avoid them. So, I turned that corner and just started dealing with this new reality and my own back.

So, if she thought I was such a monster for loading the dishwasher improperly... I decided she needed 'context' and 'redefinition' of what a real monster can feel like. Nothing left to stop me or lose.


----------



## Decorum

Racer said:


> Yep... I called it Pandora's box. She made the massive mistake of making me face my insecurities and fears where they were no longer a potential threat, but becoming real. These same fears is what had kept me in check trying to please and appease her. There came a point where you can no longer avoid them. So, I turned that corner and just started dealing with this new reality and my own back.
> 
> So, if she thought I was such a monster for loading the dishwasher improperly... I decided she needed 'context' and 'redefinition' of what a real monster can feel like. Nothing left to stop me or lose.


You have just written my story as well. When you are pushed to the point where you have nothing to lose, you can afford to live like you have nothing to lose.

Why would a free man ever enter into slavery again?


----------



## carpenoctem

*You have fought chronic diabetes, even more chronic disrespect, even more chronic deceit, and even more chronic dependency, and seem to be coming out on top.*

Who knows, you might even turn into one of those eponymous Alphas, much as I hate the concept.

Way to go, Sir.

Ironically, you have your wife to thank for this - without her pushing you so infernally much, you wouldn't have attempted a turnaround so desperately.


----------



## carpenoctem

Decorum said:


> When you are pushed to the point where you have nothing to lose, you can afford to live like you have nothing to lose.
> 
> Why would a free man ever enter into slavery again?
> 
> *Somewhere there has to be a "you go girl" book that explains to women how to stay just shy of that line*



oh yes.


----------



## Nucking Futs

How's it going Horizon?


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> How's it going Horizon?


Thanks for asking NF.

It's limbo land. I've moved back into the master bedroom after we had relatives here on the weekend. No big deal, no issues, no anything. My WS has encouraged me a couple of times to come back. So I have - more for the comfort than anything else.

I think I mentioned this before but I have lost sight of what to expect from a relationship in terms of intimacy. Obviously this depends on the dynamics between couples - even "happy" couples can have very little intimacy. The only thing I can go on is what I would like to have in my life.

So yeah, Xmas is close, our holiday is on the horizon and nothing is new under the sun. Boring - just an iota of intimacy would be nice. 

Still working out and I've lost a little more weight. I feel pretty good, just this damn domestic set up.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> I think I mentioned this before but I have lost sight of what to expect from a relationship in terms of intimacy. Obviously this depends on the dynamics between couples - even "happy" couples can have very little intimacy.
> 
> *I don't know if anyone will agree with me here but more often than not the woman sets the tempo and temperature of sex and intimacy. This is why the MMSL is such a help.
> 
> I think your wife is able to communicate what she wants and no one can tell you (within a certain range) what is reasonable for you.
> 
> The question is will your spouse sympathize with your needs.
> 
> (She may need some time and interaction to recover herself as well.)
> 
> 
> There is a sympathy quotient that is a very good measure of a relationship.
> 
> I think it's safe to say you are in a deficit.
> 
> Will your wife recover hers' for you? Keep working on yourself, stay a little detached and see if it ever comes back, otherwise you will have to decide what you will put up with.
> 
> BTW sympathy is not pity, it is a component of a genuinely good relationship, it is the mutuality of sympathy in a relationship that makes the connection strong. If its all on one side, well then that is a hard road to hoe.
> 
> * The only thing I can go on is what I would like to have in my life.
> 
> *I think you are asking the right question. Look around, don't be unrealistic but answer that question, you are at the stage of life where many people ask that, really! Being able to articulate what you need is important for a couple reasons.*


Take care!


----------



## bfree

Excellent post Decorum.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks for your concern. The insights are so important to me. It's incredible what you can learn about yourself let alone human behavior / life. A pity it has taken this calamity to wake me up but there it is.

Yeah, I'm in deficit alright. I had to think hard about this and other aspects. I had got to the stage where I was in such doubt about my feelings and what was going on that I could not answer questions about me/us for myself. I was becoming confused.

Now I trust my gut and the signals coming my way. I know that what I'm experiencing is on the money - it is not exaggerated. In terms of my WS it is significant because she is not tuned in to the "sympathy quotient" and in fact her position effectively undermines any chance of it. However she is not being consciously cruel or anything like that - it is just her and where she is at.

It is not enough for me. We are just surviving. Detachment is on both sides as she detached from me long ago. She makes occasional signals like commenting on the fact that I was nude after a shower etc.

It has a sort of girlish, playful tone but stops in it's tracks. She maybe expects the old me to take this as a cue to get started with the innuendos & hints, which I now don't. Whatever she is on about (titillation?) is quickly shut down when I don't respond. It's not that awkward but it's like she suddenly realises where she was heading or something. She's going to have to do better than that.

(maybe she is missing not having the chance anymore to knock me back!)

I had a pretty bad day yesterday, really stepped back into the betrayal etc. Fortunately I was working and didn't get to focus for too long on it. So thanks a million - still working on me. Onwards and upwards.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> It's not that awkward but it's like she suddenly realises where she was heading or something. She's going to have to do better than that.
> 
> (maybe she is missing not having the chance anymore to knock me back!)


She may see where the relationship is headed (over the cliff) and is throwing out a few carrots (out of fear) to slow it down. Its good you are being objective enough to see it, because it is a far cry from trying to save a relationship.

Personally I don't think a 60/40 relationship is bad because it tends to shift back and forth over time depending what a person is going through, but if it get more uneven for an extended period of time then I think the other person is not investing enough in the relationship (in general).

(BTW not trying to bash you but you have been on both sides of that in this marriage too, so working on yourself will pay off)


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## Northern Monkey

Happiernot used to use little carrots of potential intimacy to placate me. Oh how I used to gobble them up. Funny how when the time came to deliver there was always a reasonablen not to. If you responded the old way, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she went back to shutting it down.

That said, if its a gradual process if rediscovering that intimacy, at some point there is only one way to find out.

I think you are right to be highly sceptical of her at this point. It's good to hear you vocalise that all that matters is what "you" want. I'd say maintain that detachment that has been so slow coming. You have to be able to take a rejection without falling apart before even considering putting yourself into that position with her imo.

I've been quick to pick up on a lack of progress for you but the tone of your posts seems to show there is some being made. Be proud of that and hold tight to it. Not backsliding is just as tough as gaining that ground but also just as rewarding.


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## Horizon

Good points and great to hear from you NM. And thanks so much everyone for helping me nail it down. As I said I'm confident of what is happening - much less inclined to doubt myself.

I still clearly hear those words she spoke when we had that last blow up a few weeks back - "I am never going to be the woman you want me to be". 

She also said this some weeks after DDay as I recall. The thing is it does not just refer to not being able to or wanting to express deep remorse etc - it has much deeper meaning now IMO. I wonder if it is almost an exit remark which popped out under heated conditions.

I can only judge things and make decisions based on how we are getting on and specifically if my needs are being met. Obviously my needs are not being met. If this continues into the new year, after our family trip away, all bets are off. I suspect nothing will change.

The flip side of this coin is if her needs are being met. Fact is the only needs I am meeting for her that I can see is being the stable presence at home and offering some type of platonic companionship. 

I don't expect that we should be passionate lovers as such, but I believe a certain level of regular passion is definitely possible and should be a part of my life. If she can't provide this then what have I got besides the situation we have now?

If she was thinking about us and the health of our relationship you wouldn't know it. Not a word about any of this comes from her lips. It's as though she is perfectly content and why not with a new high paying jobs and OS trips to follow. 

It is this very environment, prior to my detachment when I was weaker, which had me wondering if this was in a fact a tactic (hence "I'll never be the woman you want me to be"). In the sense that the screws were being turned tighter - an ultimatum; this is as good as it gets.

So I roll on. I'm stronger now. Something will give eventually - we are getting closer to critical mass each day.


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## Horizon

Yeah, she's giving me absolutely zero - there is nothing. And as you well know - nothing comes from nothing. 

The other day when I regressed I have no shame in reporting that I felt totally unloved, almost abandoned. Very much a child's state of mind, how I felt deep down growing up. 

That's OK - I'm growing, as much as it is a battle I am growing through this. 

Funny how all the promises from my WS post DDay were nothing more than just words, empty words.


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## warlock07

groundhog day


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## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> groundhog day


Fair enough - if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.

Thing is I have made changes. Agreed not massive changes but I have done enough to know that it will and should only ever be for me. (not forgetting the positive effect a fitter Dad has on his children).

In growing to where I am I have developed insight I didn't have. It's pretty scary knowing what is coming around the bend. I can't see anyway to avoid it but it's unavoidable anyway.

There is no soft landing.


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## Decorum

Any landing is better than crashing. You are working to be who you really are. No one can take that from you so dont give it away. Confidence, some hope and satisfaction in yourself are valuable assets during rough times.

When you possess them you have something to offer another person.

Just find a worthy person to share yourself with. And of course your kids are very deserving of the best "you" that you can muster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

I got pipped at the post on that full time job. I don't believe much of the BS these recruiters and employers go on with. Make you feel like your the man and then whip the carpet out from under you or you hear nothing at all. I'm certain that ageism is the main factor - it's not like we are talking about highly skilled work. Anyway, next!


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## Decorum

Sorry man, it is rough, I was out for 9 months I have seen it also. Keep trying. I ask this in fear and trembling so everyone be nice to me, can your wife help find something at her new company or finance some type of start for you? It seems like its easier to find a job when you have one.

She is your partner and part of your network.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

Not at this joint, it's a small office and as for financing well, we haven't got a zac (five cents) for anything. 

Actually at her last job, a few weeks before she finished, a bloke resigned and she put me up for the position. I raced off my resume to the manager of that section. He never responded to my letter - I never heard a word. A-holes paradise the modern workforce.


----------



## Horizon

This detachment has revelations. I'm still well in this mode - perfectly natural, not forced. I have stuck to my guns even though we are sharing the bedroom now. 

Remember the talk she had with me a week after I detached (after the last blow up a few weeks back)? How she had never felt better about us in the 8 years or so and she felt it was a basis for exploring intimacy etc?? - all WS BS.

No effort - par for the course; and plenty to look fwd to in early 2014. An OS family holiday and 3 business trips away (2 OS, 1 interstate) all by March. Lucky her and screw reconciliation. 

I will have a full time job come hell or high water !


----------



## Horizon

Our finances are f**ked to the max. I have done the sums, seen the sh!t storm and it will hit us before Xmas. I calmly told my WS this morning that we need to talk about this. Here is how it goes....

Hey, we need to talk about our finances

Yeah....

Have you seen the situation, do you know what is happening there?

Yeah....what do you want me....?

(longish pause to avoid the explosion that is always close by)

We'll talk later on.

See, the same old dynamic. The inference is that she is in no way responsible and hates the thought of being tied down by financial restraints. When I (the old annoying sexually unappealing Father figure) bring up this up the first port of call is not - "let's sit down and solve this" it is - "well who's to blame?".

And that's because my WS has been committing financial infidelity for years driven by God knows what psychological issues and is not prepared to face it and, as with her affair, throws it back at me. In this case for not bringing in enough income - blames someone except herself. 

That is the implication, hence statements in the past such as "I don't see you working at nights or on weekends". As if she ever did when I worked full time and she was at home with the babies. I mean when the roles were reversed she had a casual job at a retail outlet and boy was I earning a sh!tload less than she is pulling in now!

We are screwed. At some point before Xmas - for the first time in my life I might add - we are going to have a bill or an expense that we do not have the funds for and the only alternative will be to throw it on my other credit card (only ever used for 'secret' gifts and never with more than 1 grand owing). 

That rarely used card of mine is currently blown out by far more than I would ever let it because of a recent expense exceeding more than 2 grand. So in effect we have reached that critical mass now. All we will do is add to that debt. I can't wait to see what her plans are to turn this ship around besides the fact that I am going to take the first full time job that comes my way (at the worst time of the year for employment).

A fu*king mess.


----------



## WyshIknew

Do you have equity in the house?


Not being mean but this is a situation that you as well as her allowed to develop.

Not being funny but if it implodes your best bet might be to divorce and declare bankruptcy.


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## Horizon

WyshIknew said:


> Do you have equity in the house?
> 
> 
> Not being mean but this is a situation that you as well as her allowed to develop.
> 
> Not being funny but if it implodes your best bet might be to divorce and declare bankruptcy.


You could argue that. But I am not going to accept responsibility for her wayward spending. The fact that I have hung in there implicates me but there has been a lot at stake not the least our children. This problem has been brewing from about when I became SAHD (roughly 8 years and yes, I have always worked in that time on a part time or casual basis).

This can be partly solved and more quickly solved with me securing a full time job and her looking up the meaning of the word frugal.

The equity / line of credit escape plan has maxed out. As previously disclosed and after doing this 3 times in 8 years already, the bank said NO.


----------



## Horizon

My WS just called me and we briefly discussed our $ issues. She told me she has no idea about how to fix this. I kid u not.


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## WyshIknew

It's something you both need to work on together.

As a team.


----------



## illwill

Horizon said:


> This detachment has revelations. I'm still well in this mode - perfectly natural, not forced. I have stuck to my guns even though we are sharing the bedroom now.
> 
> Remember the talk she had with me a week after I detached (after the last blow up a few weeks back)? How she had never felt better about us in the 8 years or so and she felt it was a basis for exploring intimacy etc?? - all WS BS.
> 
> No effort - par for the course; and plenty to look fwd to in early 2014. An OS family holiday and 3 business trips away (2 OS, 1 interstate) all by March. Lucky her and screw reconciliation.
> 
> I will have a full time job come hell or high water !


He!! yeah.


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon's WP is a full-blown alcoholic. Until she decides to do something about that, there is little chance that anything will change for the better in their marriage, be it their financial situation or physical intimacy.

Horizon, you may find the following link helpful in better understanding your WP: Seattle Institute for Sex Therapy, Education & Research: Women, Sex and Alcoholism


----------



## Horizon

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon's WP is a full-blown alcoholic. Until she decides to do something about that, there is little chance that anything will change for the better in their marriage, be it their financial situation or physical intimacy.
> 
> Horizon, you may find the following link helpful in better understanding your WP: Seattle Institute for Sex Therapy, Education & Research: Women, Sex and Alcoholism


Thanks CO - just an update. My WS really broke down last night. The pressure of being the family peacemaker, surrogate son, the 'success' story, all under the gaze and demands of her Father and his subsequent death a few months back is starting to bring things to a head. The root of her alcoholism is buried here and she's knows it - she admitted it last night. A good sign for her I hope.

Merry Xmas and best wishes for 2014


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## LostViking

Horizon do they have Al-Anon in Oz? (No it is not a Muslim sect). If they do you need to join a group in your area and get support from other spouses of alcoholics. It is a valuable resource that costs nothing.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



LostViking said:


> Horizon do they have Al-Anon in Oz? (No it is not a Muslim sect). If they do you need to join a group in your area and get support from other spouses of alcoholics. It is a valuable resource that costs nothing.


Excellent suggestion. It will also help him with that codependency.


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## Horizon

Yes Al-Anon is a few burbs away. My contact at the Salvation Army is helping me with this.

Say - don't I have aright to know if my WS is going to catch up with some dude she has done business with before? He knows she is a good contact for his products, I get that, but I believe she should tell me. I don't feel comfortable about it even though I'm sure it's all above board. Actually I'm not sure at all.

And guess who was busted snooping around viewing my WS's business profile recently. F**king pushing the envelope this pr**k is after many months of nothing. Just a little nudge - she'd be aware he viewed her profile. The audacity, the hypocrisy (considering this same action was part of his failed AVO against me). Hold fire, hold fire....

In both cases I reckon I deserved to be informed. She said zip - I can just hear the "I didn't want to upset you...." BS. I believe that talking to me about something possibly as harmless as this is an ideal way to rebuild - a perfect opportunity to build trust. Nothing.


----------



## the guy

Old habits are hard to break.


----------



## Horizon

True enough - and it is not so much what this implies rather it is the continuation of this platform that my WS rigidly sticks to. 

"I don't have to tell you anything, stop telling me what to do" - ie: I am portrayed as controlling, that's the message I'm getting.

Just proves how far removed she is from any comprehension that my need to know is valid, of any worth. She has no concept of that at all but she has a clearly defined understanding of her entitlement to a hidden life. 

That's the place where affairs happen - beholden to no man, no one. She should be single.


----------



## SaltInWound

Sooner or later the cheater always gives you a variation of the control accusation. 

Mine told me, "I'm a big boy. I can do what I want." Shows at what age his emotional maturity froze. Doesn't change the fact it translates into adult speech to mean "Stop trying to control me."


----------



## LostViking

Horizon said:


> True enough - and it is not so much what this implies rather it is the continuation of this platform that my WS rigidly sticks to.
> 
> "I don't have to tell you anything, stop telling me what to do" - ie: I am portrayed as controlling, that's the message I'm getting.
> 
> Just proves how far removed she is from any comprehension that my need to know is valid, of any worth. She has no concept of that at all but she has a clearly defined understanding of her entitlement to a hidden life.
> 
> That's the place where affairs happen - beholden to no man, no one. She should be single.


And yet you keep talking to her. Talk talk talk.

You should be doing the 180 and manning your exit strategy. Only talk to her about household logistics and the kids. But you won't stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Actually i was referring to the fact that nothing progressed from that point (her denial & silence) months & months ago. I've done quite a bit to improve me in that time. The fact that I can see evidence of something that naturally disturbed me just got me huffing and puffing. Her silence on the fact that the POSOM viewed her business profile and a business associate seeking more business for 2014 wants to catch up for a coffee - pi**ed me off. I published it here to let off steam but i haven't spoken to her about it. Guess I'm waiting to see if she will hang herself.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Talk less.

Do more.

Jump over the bumps on the horizon.


----------



## Horizon

I made a direct official complaint to the worldwide CEO of the company that employs the scumbag and also threatened legal action.

Cowardly ahole.


----------



## Horizon

Well we are off on our OS holiday this weekend. 

I have trepidation because my mindset is all wrong. It is like the death of our relationship has long past but we are going through the motions of being together.

This seems to be only my issue. My WS is naturally tired having just returned from her 1st OS business trip prior to our trip away but she is just the same. And why not?

I think what I mean is that my insecurity about the whole set up is at the fore yet again and she just rolls along without a care in the world - enjoying life. Meanwhile I'm madly parenting, setting the house up for the house sitter, getting all our sh!t in order. And on it rolls.

I have done a lot of work on me in 2013, a hell of a lot more than I have for many years. I was a depressed, unhealthy wreck and I couldn't see it. I have taken that in hand and yet I can see that I still expect her to "come to the party", to take some action beyond a quick hug and a few nice words after her 4th drink.

It's not going to happen. And my challenge is how I am going to make this year count for me. Taking care of my children is a given but I have to get cracking much more than I realised. Greater effort required - I keep getting knocked back for these full time jobs so I just have to hit harder.

I can't see my WS making any changes - she's proved it and nor does she think she needs to. Affair or no affair. It's just who she is. I expect something more from her and it's not going to happen. really, the idea that our trip away, as alluded to by her some months back, will have some nice physical included is bogus.

I feel alienated from her. I realise that I am still hurt, I am still doing pain despite my improvements. An affair really f**ks things up, particularly when things had got so f**ked up before then. It's a double whammy and as I have told her - "all your affair has done is doubled the angst".

And she rolls on - she'd got the job, the trips away (the head space away), the status. I've got the domestic bliss (sarc) I've cleaned this house from top to bottom in the last week - front and back inside & out and of course it counts for sh!t. "Wow, you have really been doing stuff around here". I no longer get off on it - and yes, I was doing it for the kudos as well as it needed to be done. What a fool - but i will keep doing it because it has to be done.

This must be a year of change. I have to find that strength to move on from this. It is really like a yoke around my neck. I cannot go on feeling great one moment and sh!t the next. 

I have my own personal issues that I am dealing with in counselling. That's good for me. I have to separate out what is between her and me, and me and myself and I've pretty much got that nailed. 

I have held out hope for a genuine reconciliation but I don't see a thing that is going to make that happen other than I just forget about it and let my WS dictate terms - dictate when there is any physical - any type of affection or intimacy. That can't continue.

I have got to the point where I now question what a man older than 50 should expect. I have started asking myself if I have got it all wrong that those things I want are symptoms of neediness. That can't be right, surely. Where does the desire for intimacy end and neediness begin? It's mad!

So I'll enjoy this family holiday. Just to see my children experiencing their first OS trip and having a wild time is almost enough for me. 

Talk to you later friends and once again thank you for all your good advice and tough love in 2013 - Horizon


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Well we are off on our OS holiday this weekend.
> 
> I have trepidation because my mindset is all wrong. It is like the death of our relationship has long past but we are going through the motions of being together.
> 
> This seems to be only my issue. My WS is naturally tired having just returned from her 1st OS business trip prior to our trip away but she is just the same. And why not?
> 
> I think what I mean is that my insecurity about the whole set up is at the fore yet again and she just rolls along without a care in the world - enjoying life. Meanwhile I'm madly parenting, setting the house up for the house sitter, getting all our sh!t in order. And on it rolls.
> 
> I have done a lot of work on me in 2013, a hell of a lot more than I have for many years. I was a depressed, unhealthy wreck and I couldn't see it. I have taken that in hand and yet I can see that I still expect her to "come to the party", to take some action beyond a quick hug and a few nice words after her 4th drink.
> 
> It's not going to happen. And my challenge is how I am going to make this year count for me. Taking care of my children is a given but I have to get cracking much more than I realised. Greater effort required - I keep getting knocked back for these full time jobs so I just have to hit harder.
> 
> I can't see my WS making any changes - she's proved it and nor does she think she needs to. Affair or no affair. It's just who she is. I expect something more from her and it's not going to happen. really, the idea that our trip away, as alluded to by her some months back, will have some nice physical included is bogus.
> 
> I feel alienated from her. I realise that I am still hurt, I am still doing pain despite my improvements. An affair really f**ks things up, particularly when things had got so f**ked up before then. It's a double whammy and as I have told her - "all your affair has done is doubled the angst".
> 
> And she rolls on - she'd got the job, the trips away (the head space away), the status. I've got the domestic bliss (sarc) I've cleaned this house from top to bottom in the last week - front and back inside & out and of course it counts for sh!t. "Wow, you have really been doing stuff around here". I no longer get off on it - and yes, I was doing it for the kudos as well as it needed to be done. What a fool - but i will keep doing it because it has to be done.
> 
> This must be a year of change. I have to find that strength to move on from this. It is really like a yoke around my neck. I cannot go on feeling great one moment and sh!t the next.
> 
> I have my own personal issues that I am dealing with in counselling. That's good for me. I have to separate out what is between her and me, and me and myself and I've pretty much got that nailed.
> 
> I have held out hope for a genuine reconciliation but I don't see a thing that is going to make that happen other than I just forget about it and let my WS dictate terms - dictate when there is any physical - any type of affection or intimacy. That can't continue.
> 
> I have got to the point where I now question what a man older than 50 should expect. I have started asking myself if I have got it all wrong that those things I want are symptoms of neediness. That can't be right, surely. Where does the desire for intimacy end and neediness begin? It's mad!
> 
> So I'll enjoy this family holiday. Just to see my children experiencing their first OS trip and having a wild time is almost enough for me.
> 
> Talk to you later friends and once again thank you for all your good advice and tough love in 2013 - Horizon


Horizon, I hope you have a good trip. Don't expect any intimacy, you're not going to get it. She dangles the possibility in front of you to keep you chasing after her but she has no intention of actually delivering.

And that brings me to a suggestion: You need a girlfriend. I'm serious, and I don't mean in secret. You need to openly start dating. Tell your SO that you're looking for an intimate relationship, and since she's not interested you're looking elsewhere. If she objects tell her your surprised that she has a problem with it since she's told you over and over that her affair is no big deal. Move into your own bedroom and tell her that it wouldn't be fair to your girlfriend to still be sharing space with her.

What are the possible results of this conversation? The less likely one in my opinion is that she flips out on you but eventually realizes what she has to lose and starts trying to actively reconcile with you. Possible but I wouldn't expect it. A more likely reaction is she flips out on you, calls you every name in the book, cries, etc. but is secretly relieved that you'll be leaving her alone. The most likely in my opinion, and the most damaging for you in the short term, is that she is immediately openly happy that you're finally moving on.

Of course, don't do any of this until you get back from your trip.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> Horizon, I hope you have a good trip. Don't expect any intimacy, you're not going to get it. She dangles the possibility in front of you to keep you chasing after her but she has no intention of actually delivering.
> 
> And that brings me to a suggestion: You need a girlfriend. I'm serious, and I don't mean in secret. You need to openly start dating. Tell your SO that you're looking for an intimate relationship, and since she's not interested you're looking elsewhere. If she objects tell her your surprised that she has a problem with it since she's told you over and over that her affair is no big deal. Move into your own bedroom and tell her that it wouldn't be fair to your girlfriend to still be sharing space with her.
> 
> What are the possible results of this conversation? The less likely one in my opinion is that she flips out on you but eventually realizes what she has to lose and starts trying to actively reconcile with you. Possible but I wouldn't expect it. A more likely reaction is she flips out on you, calls you every name in the book, cries, etc. but is secretly relieved that you'll be leaving her alone. The most likely in my opinion, and the most damaging for you in the short term, is that she is immediately openly happy that you're finally moving on.
> 
> Of course, don't do any of this until you get back from your trip.


What else is there to lose, nothing really. Why not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## theroad

Still a SAHD?

Proven time and time again. Women lose respect and desire for SAHD's.


----------



## treyvion

theroad said:


> Still a SAHD?
> 
> Proven time and time again. Women lose respect and desire for SAHD's.


Agree.

Theres a way to do it if you have to. Say while she's gone it was a SAHD dad, that worked out, did some boxing or MMA training, did some hustle things to bring in money.


----------



## Horizon

I've always worked either permanent part time (25-30 hrs per week for 5 years at one stage of 8 yrs SAHD) or casually as I am right now. I've always had some income on the boil. Plus in the last 6 months I've joined a great gym, lost 8 kgs, toned up etc.

Between us it hasn't changed anything (she has never complimented me or even observed the changes I have made). Trust me, you can actually see some definition now. The elephant is still in the room. A lot of unresolved stuff is sitting there. 

Just before she went on the OS business trip my WS expressed concern that I would leave her this year (yes, after a few drinks). I couldn't even believe that statement on the face of it. Maybe it was an arse about way of expressing a desire. I don't know, but I do know that wondering is pointless. The only thing that is concrete is action.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> I have held out hope for a genuine reconciliation but I don't see a thing that is going to make that happen other than I just forget about it and let my WS dictate terms - dictate when there is any physical - any type of affection or intimacy. That can't continue.
> 
> I have got to the point where I now question what a man older than 50 should expect. I have started asking myself if I have got it all wrong that those things I want are symptoms of neediness. That can't be right, surely. Where does the desire for intimacy end and neediness begin? It's mad!


Horizon,
For a man and woman in their 50's the interest and frequency of intimacy is a range of acceptability on a normal curve.

There are many factors but they dont really need to be listed.

The only thing that is not normal is none.

I work out of town for now but since my wife and I have worked on reconnecting when I get home after a few minutes of talking she is already hinting that she wants to knock the boot.

Maybe some others will concur, but time alone in personal caring conversation is an aphrodisiac. There is no reason that the 50's should be passionless. (yes of course there may be medical reasons etc I just mean generally).

What can derail that train?

A lack of intimacy!
What can cause a lack of intimacy?
Its a long list but guilt, active infidelity, addictions, unresolved issues, etc.

All PUA aside, there must be a given level of honesty in mutual self disclosure and acceptance to acheive intimacy.

Plus as others have mentioned the wife must maintain respect for her man. I actually think that this is part of the commitment that a woman makes when she vows fidelity in marriage.

Many of us have had to learn to not be a "nice guy", to have self respect and be an awesome person in some measure. Thats our responsibility.

But women keep lists and to keep a faithful heart a woman needs to see and see again that the good side of the list outweights the bad, and it does in any decent man. 

Yeah nobody is perfect but marriage is a journey with a life partner, and life always means change and growth. Love always tries to encourage the other person to be the best they can be.

I DONT THINK YOU SHOULD EVER APOLOGISE FOR YOUR NEEDS WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE. SHOULD YOU EVER GET WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE AND YOU WANT A REALITY CHECK FAIR ENOUGH, BUT UNTIL YOUR TRAIN PULLS UP TO THAT STOP I DONT THINK YOU SHOULD SECOND GUESS YOURSELF!!!

Is this all corny BS or is it just simple truth? I know what I think.

So the odds do seem to be stacked against you, things are going her way outside the marriage, but the relationship is stuck and dying not changing and growing.

She is dissapating the time and energy she should put into the relationship through an unhealthy sublimation with every ounce (or 29.5 ml) of alcohol.

She is broken, I feel sorry for her I really do.

Keep making progress, her fear that you may leave her may be based on that very progress but that is her stitch.

I hate to say some of this before you go on vacation but its not like you dont see it, so give the elephant a peanut for me.

I just hope you can find the quiet confidence to be an awesome person and keep moving forward.

Take care!


----------



## Horizon

The whole thing has descended into sh!t. I wanted to discuss some consequences for my daughters typical teenage anti-authority behavior. She has been particularly bad lately - typical yes, but there must be some lines that she cannot cross. My WS butted heads with me and very quickly it descended into accusations that I "tell" but never ask etc. "One of the reasons why you wouldn't have the STD test if I remember; because I told you to, because I demanded it" I couldn't help countering. A farce, a complete f**king farce on the eve of 2 weeks OS. I am not taking her sh!t anymore - f**k her! Wouldn't even give me the opp to get out what i wanted to say about our daughter - even said at one point "Why are you telling me?". Really. Just wanted to go on about teenage girls and how I just don't get it when I kept saying I do get it (it's not that difficult to understand but apparently as a man I don't - huh?). I believe there must be consequences. Even given plenty of latitude there must be consequences as in "I'm taking your iPod for 24 hours" etc. OMG she was defensive. Me as the father figure ogre thing again. I know who has issues and it isn't my daughter.


----------



## Horizon

Thanks Decorum, really appreciated. This is sounding ridiculous I know; but sh!t happens. I can always bunk in with my son. It's like two people from two different planets talking sh!t in a language that neither understands and both getting mightily pi**ed off in the process. Wow, ain't this holiday going to be interesting.


----------



## Decorum

Yeah you feel like the only one enforcing boundaries and hate always having to be "the bad guy".

The consequences your daughter experiences help form her norms and standards that will be with her forever.

She may forget the time the lesson is learned but the lesson itself is preserved as her brain wires itself through the process.

Its a gift to your daughter, your wife needs to understand that her own insecurities will deny her daughter this gift.

The reason children grow up is so that they can learn the lessons they need in life, you have to make hay when the sun is shining.

I know its hard for you, maybe ask you wife if she is willing to let your daughter grow up without being corrected.

That you cannot parent as a team if you cannot agree that she needs to learn certain lessons.

Descending into dispute does not accomplish this.

You might try this (not in front of dear daughter) " I would enforce an important boundary at this point, one she needs to be successful in life but I cannot do it without your support, will you stand with me in this".

If the answer is no then step away, don't argue, do this a few times and see if her insecurity will prompt her for your input.

The goal is to help her visualize emotionally that her leniency is harming her daughter. (You cannot just tell her that she has to be able to visualize it, and fear is a good way to visualize things.)

Even a compromise on an agreed discipline is better than nothing.

Its short term and maybe worth a try.

Don't be the bad guy for a while, eventually your daughter and wife will have to clash, (its a mother daughter tradition) don't be their unifying factor, since she can play you both.

My second born daughter was being snarky with me once and trying to tell me off. I was not ok with that. I looked at her and said "so we are done right"? I really was a nurturing understanding father and she was (unknowingly) taking advantage of that and taking it for granted. 

The look on her face was like her best boyfriend just broke up with her, she knew our relationship was going to change at that point if she got it wrong.

"What do you mean?" She was not sure what to think (nor was I really) only that I was at some turning point. " I mean that our caring relationship ends here right, because I am certainly not the piece of crap like you are trying to treat me like."

She just wanted her way but she could see the price was to high to push it. I learned this from Ronald Regan's approach to terrorism. You have to make it too costly for them to take the chance .

Our rapport move to a much better place (I admit I was learning to not be a "nice guy" at the time), she is a woman now graduated and off on her career but we were and are very close and to this day I can tell how much she respects me.

I am rambling a bit so just take it for what it worth.

Don't let your wife control your happiness.
Take care!


----------



## Horizon

A nice bookend to the start of this thread more than 8 months ago. It's gone 1.30 am and I've manged 3 hrs sleep. We head OS in less than 10 hrs.

I perhaps have done my WS a disservice. It's not that she is not interested in disciplining our children it is just that she did what she has done a few times to me over the last 18 years. She took my attempt to bring up the subject about boundaries and made my communication "technique" the subject. That is why it crashed and burned into a full tilt argument. She kept repeating 'You tell, you tell people...." Absurd. She knows how to push that button and I fell into it, even when I said "I am not falling for this again" I actually did. Then I am picked off as the one who lost control ie: "Where is this anger coming from?" Hello!!!! She even went as far to imply the next day that it was the one JD I consumed. 

When I opened my eyes a little while ago my mind was very clear; as it always is at this time. I find that if I wake in the middle of the night that the correct answer to whatever issue my mind falls upon is sitting right there - lucidly composed. It feels true, it is true. 

I thought about my WS and me, the swim we had in our pool before bed a few hours ago. I completely and utterly felt how there is nothing between us. Not a breath of what we once had, whatever that was. I'm unable to completely shake this crushing blow of infidelity and have resentment toward her. She is unable to find anything within herself to kick start something remotely resembling reconciliation. And while that resentment remains in me and while she uses that vibe to reinforce her defenses we have nothing. A kind of stalemate.

Neither of us know how to shake this off. I just can't bring myself to keep playing this "shut up and get over it, here are a few scraps" (an odd hug here and there and zero sex) scene and she has nothing in the tank to give me. So we cling to the realities of having children and financial commitments.

As i have speculated before it is this very dynamic which made me believe I was being played and forced to take action. Whereas I can now see that some type of action, any action, is the only option when you have stalemate. Of course she holds the financial trump - she knows I am currently screwed in that sense. There is so much she knows - an unspoken cunning.

I'll tell you - the night before last when we went at it, she again went on about the house being hers. it's absurd and just something she likes to throw in - a power card she tries to deal. It's BS of course but you could swear she believes it. Which of course has to do with money and therefore power. All that's left is what you've got right?

In the midst of this BS banter I countered with my absolute commitment to our children over the last 9 years. That if you could put a $ figure on my contribution....forget it. As a few have said on TAM, there are no points for being a great SAHD. It counts for zip and here is my WS virtually saying just that. When I challenged her to quantify my contribution she couldn't do it, didn't want to do it. Arguments go like that, they get nasty but it was a cruel truth. It doesn't have a $ value - the argument put up by housewives years ago. Feeling valueless, unappreciated etc. She even hoisted that one on me. A whining housewife or something.

There is nothing left just the drawn out process of finally saying it for real and acting on it. I'm finally really understanding that our time together is finished. Her affair may not have been intended as an exit affair but it has been the shot that killed us off. 

Onward and upward.

PS: After a withdrawal yesterday I discovered that we have less than $100 in our account until her pay goes in next week. That shook her up. We had the best part of $30k credit when we moved in 11 months ago. All gone. Gone where? Need I say it??


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> A nice bookend to the start of this thread more than 8 months ago. It's gone 1.30 am and I've manged 3 hrs sleep. We head OS in less than 10 hrs.
> 
> I perhaps have done my WS a disservice. It's not that she is not interested in disciplining our children it is just that she did what she has done a few times to me over the last 18 years. She took my attempt to bring up the subject about boundaries and made my communication "technique" the subject. That is why it crashed and burned into a full tilt argument. She kept repeating 'You tell, you tell people...." Absurd. She knows how to push that button and I fell into it, even when I said "I am not falling for this again" I actually did. Then I am picked off as the one who lost control ie: "Where is this anger coming from?" Hello!!!! She even went as far to imply the next day that it was the one JD I consumed.
> 
> When I opened my eyes a little while ago my mind was very clear; as it always is at this time. I find that if I wake in the middle of the night that the correct answer to whatever issue my mind falls upon is sitting right there - lucidly composed. It feels true, it is true.
> 
> I thought about my WS and me, the swim we had in our pool before bed a few hours ago. I completely and utterly felt how there is nothing between us. Not a breath of what we once had, whatever that was. I'm unable to completely shake this crushing blow of infidelity and have resentment toward her. She is unable to find anything within herself to kick start something remotely resembling reconciliation. And while that resentment remains in me and while she uses that vibe to reinforce her defenses we have nothing. A kind of stalemate.
> 
> Neither of us know how to shake this off. I just can't bring myself to keep playing this "shut up and get over it, here are a few scraps" (an odd hug here and there and zero sex) scene and she has nothing in the tank to give me. So we cling to the realities of having children and financial commitments.
> 
> As i have speculated before it is this very dynamic which made me believe I was being played and forced to take action. Whereas I can now see that some type of action, any action, is the only option when you have stalemate. Of course she holds the financial trump - she knows I am currently screwed in that sense. There is so much she knows - an unspoken cunning.
> 
> *I'll tell you - the night before last when we went at it, she again went on about the house being hers. it's absurd and just something she likes to throw in - a power card she tries to deal. It's BS of course but you could swear she believes it. Which of course has to do with money and therefore power. All that's left is what you've got right?
> *
> In the midst of this BS banter I countered with my absolute commitment to our children over the last 9 years. That if you could put a $ figure on my contribution....forget it. As a few have said on TAM, there are no points for being a great SAHD. It counts for zip and here is my WS virtually saying just that. When I challenged her to quantify my contribution she couldn't do it, didn't want to do it. Arguments go like that, they get nasty but it was a cruel truth. It doesn't have a $ value - the argument put up by housewives years ago. Feeling valueless, unappreciated etc. She even hoisted that one on me. A whining housewife or something.
> 
> There is nothing left just the drawn out process of finally saying it for real and acting on it. *I'm finally really understanding that our time together is finished. Her affair may not have been intended as an exit affair but it has been the shot that killed us off.
> *
> Onward and upward.
> 
> PS: After a withdrawal yesterday I discovered that we have less than $100 in our account until her pay goes in next week. That shook her up. We had the best part of $30k credit when we moved in 11 months ago. All gone. Gone where? Need I say it??


Horizon, have you consulted with an attorney to find out what your rights would be if and when the two of you separate? As I recall, the two of you are not married and therefore things may be more legally complicated than in a typical divorce situation. If you haven't, why not? You say you finally realize that your relationship is finished. So when will you start to act to protect yourself and your children?


----------



## turnera

I find it hard to believe that no matter what country you're in, you won't get half of everything you guys own.


----------



## ceejay93

Gotta say, still confused about what you're expecting to happen. Are you wairing for your children to turn 18 before you gtfo your sh!t marriage or are you simply planning on staying miserable for the rest of your life because you can't do better?

There is no way you get a divorce and end up worse than you are now! You're gonna get alimony and she can't squander that. You'll be free of this hell hole, and most importantly, you won't have to write a post complaining about your sh!t marriage that you refuse to leave!


----------



## Granny7

Horizon said:


> 3.15am and I'm still up. After all the wonderful help from you great people here I can report that - drum roll - it got worse. Yes folks I'm back.
> 
> See, I was very definitely on the Recon path with my partner / de-facto (and could still be - just) and have been for a few weeks. It's roughly a month since DDay. But....
> 
> Last night I pressed my WS for another look at her secret Hotmail account. The one that she recently claimed she had forgotten the password to, the one where a month ago I accidentally came across her betrayal.
> 
> Remember I described how my heart thumped in my chest as I scrolled? But stupidly I spoke to soon and she deleted them. WRONG! I reset her password, with her consent, and got into "sent items" (how dumb is this woman?). And there they were in all their glory.
> 
> I copied all of them to myself this time. I read each and every one more than a few times. The correspondence was from June 2012 until March 2013. There were notable gaps where, as it describes, they were trying to keep away from each other but struggled. It would start in fits and bursts and is very graphic. There are about 15 e-mails. Add to this the iphone sexting I spoke of and that's about it.
> 
> The key to the communication is sex (obviously) but much more painfully love - yes expressions of love. Even on the 2nd of March this year, the 2nd of March !!!! she says "You do know how much I love you?"
> 
> It goes on and on. I couldn't hold back. I confronted her in the bathroom and poured the remaining content of my drink, the only beer in the house, all over her. The children freaked out. They didn't see that but they had heard enough.
> 
> After a massive kerfuffle I told them upfront what had happened and why Mum and Dad had been arguing for the last month. She then sat them down and told them she had made a mistake.
> 
> I can't talk anymore - I'm so shattered by the depths of this, by the depths of her denial and self delusion regarding the meaning of what she has done. I'm tired of her pushing the case about me having turned away despite how badly things had become - the justification, the "he meant nothing, it meant nothing" line.
> 
> You said I'd be back - you were so right. F**K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Horizon,
God, I feel for you! I can't imagine what you must be going through right now. Well, on the other hand, yes I can. I keep putting off getting in touch with the OW after 25 yrs. and asking or baiting her into getting the truth about what really happened in bed? But on the other hand, I'm so scared to hear the truth, because if he had sex their is no telling what I might do to him. 

Pouring beer on top of his head would be minor to what I might do, cops or not. I know she's a woman, so that's about all you could do. I personally think the cops might have understood, but I'm sure a lot on here wouldn't agree with me. Anyone under the same circumstances would have lost it.

The only thing I don't agree with is, it's got to be kept civil in front of the children. They don't deserve to be hurt or exposed to this mistake made by your wife. Hang in their okay, you have a tough road ahead of you.

Granny7


----------



## illwill

So, what will you do about this continued disrespect?


----------



## Horizon

Well here we are in the middle of our holidays and it is a disaster. It is what I knew it would be. The children are having fun of course but as for the WS and myself - forget about it. 

I made the error, after 5 nights of going through the motions of zero intimacy on any level, to raise the subject. Adult like, openly. WRONG! Big argument. "What? You expect intimacy after what you said to me two nights before we left??!" And did I cut lose on her again.

Long story short (these internet fees are astronomical) she always has a perfect excuse for not discussing anything. Forget about talking about intimacy issues, my WS will not even discuss us - full stop. It's always the wrong time or whatever - "Later", is such a convenient word.

The fact is she is not going to give an inch. All the talk about a new start, a new beginning, giving this recon a damn good shot etc.- all BS, massive BS. She has done nothing and will do nothing and is effectively squeezing me so tightly that it is impossible to remain cool. I become the person who is forced to act. IMHO she knows exactly what she is doing.

I asked her the other night to name one thing in more than 8 months that she had done to help us reconcile. Dead silence or a diversion. She's got nothing because there is nothing. I'm starting to hate this person who I refer to as my WS. Strong words but I don't know how else to put it.

After a sightseeing trip for the morning I said to her "I feel like we have reached the end of the road". She again said she didn't want to discuss it and got up and walked out of the restaurant. Left just like that. And of course when we caught up later she accused me, for the second time, of ruining our holiday.

If I just shut the f**k up and keep up the pretence this holiday will magically improve for us. I'm fighting hard to keep a level head. Pls don't blame me for speaking out, there is only so much silence and fakery one can take. I guess I'll shut up now - what more needs to be said?

Hope you are all well - Horizon in paradise.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Well here we are in the middle of our holidays and it is a disaster. It is what I knew it would be. The children are having fun of course but as for the WS and myself - forget about it.
> 
> I made the error, after 5 nights of going through the motions of zero intimacy on any level, to raise the subject. Adult like, openly. WRONG! Big argument. "What? You expect intimacy after what you said to me two nights before we left??!" And did I cut lose on her again.
> 
> Long story short (these internet fees are astronomical) she always has a perfect excuse for not discussing anything. Forget about talking about intimacy issues, my WS will not even discuss us - full stop. It's always the wrong time or whatever - "Later", is such a convenient word.
> 
> The fact is she is not going to give an inch. All the talk about a new start, a new beginning, giving this recon a damn good shot etc.- all BS, massive BS. She has done nothing and will do nothing and is effectively squeezing me so tightly that it is impossible to remain cool. I become the person who is forced to act. IMHO she knows exactly what she is doing.
> 
> I asked her the other night to name one thing in more than 8 months that she had done to help us reconcile. Dead silence or a diversion. She's got nothing because there is nothing. I'm starting to hate this person who I refer to as my WS. Strong words but I don't know how else to put it.
> 
> After a sightseeing trip for the morning I said to her "I feel like we have reached the end of the road". She again said she didn't want to discuss it and got up and walked out of the restaurant. Left just like that. And of course when we caught up later she accused me, for the second time, of ruining our holiday.
> 
> If I just shut the f**k up and keep up the pretence this holiday will magically improve for us. I'm fighting hard to keep a level head. Pls don't blame me for speaking out, there is only so much silence and fakery one can take. I guess I'll shut up now - what more needs to be said?
> 
> Hope you are all well - Horizon in paradise.


What was it Einstein said about doing the same things and expecting different results? :scratchhead:


----------



## WyshIknew

Horizon said:


> Well here we are in the middle of our holidays and it is a disaster. It is what I knew it would be. The children are having fun of course but as for the WS and myself - forget about it.
> 
> I made the error, after 5 nights of going through the motions of zero intimacy on any level, to raise the subject. Adult like, openly. WRONG! Big argument. "What? You expect intimacy after what you said to me two nights before we left??!" And did I cut lose on her again.
> 
> Long story short (these internet fees are astronomical) she always has a perfect excuse for not discussing anything. Forget about talking about intimacy issues, my WS will not even discuss us - full stop. It's always the wrong time or whatever - "Later", is such a convenient word.
> 
> The fact is she is not going to give an inch. All the talk about a new start, a new beginning, giving this recon a damn good shot etc.- all BS, massive BS. She has done nothing and will do nothing and is effectively squeezing me so tightly that it is impossible to remain cool. I become the person who is forced to act. IMHO she knows exactly what she is doing.
> 
> I asked her the other night to name one thing in more than 8 months that she had done to help us reconcile. Dead silence or a diversion. She's got nothing because there is nothing. I'm starting to hate this person who I refer to as my WS. Strong words but I don't know how else to put it.
> 
> After a sightseeing trip for the morning I said to her "I feel like we have reached the end of the road". She again said she didn't want to discuss it and got up and walked out of the restaurant. Left just like that. And of course when we caught up later she accused me, for the second time, of ruining our holiday.
> 
> If I just shut the f**k up and keep up the pretence this holiday will magically improve for us. I'm fighting hard to keep a level head. Pls don't blame me for speaking out, there is only so much silence and fakery one can take. I guess I'll shut up now - what more needs to be said?
> 
> Hope you are all well - Horizon in paradise.


You are with her because?


----------



## turnera

And you are surprised that you are getting the exact result we told you that you would get...why?


----------



## WyshIknew

Dude.

You first posted in April 3013.

What are you going to be posting in April 2014?

I hope it's not this same whinging and whining.


ETA. Make something happen. You deserve better than this.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon,

Bali or Fiji wasn't ever going to temporarily repair her alcohol affected serotonin receptors. 

In fact it quite often makes things worse, because staying in paradise notwithstanding, being out of the comfort zone of day to day home life familiarity, leaves a residual anxiety that needs an extra dampening down effect to maintain a sense of emotional equilibrium. 

That maybe in the form of increased denial, projection, drug of choice or addiction usage, or whatever. 

Your asking for intimacy was only ever going to go one way.

She is sick and there is nothing you can do to change that.

I hope you can have some fun with your kids on your holiday.
You three deserve some fun.


----------



## Racer

Of coarse it was a disaster. You went on it with some expectations and a ‘covert contract’ that the holiday would have a specific outcome. And when it didn’t, you handle it like someone who feels betrayed (about her not being like you imagined she would on this holiday).

Just refocus. Have fun with your kids, being on holiday, and enjoy yourself. She isn’t necessary, nor should you rely in any way for her to make this holiday ‘fun’ for you. Make your own fun.


----------



## WyshIknew

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Bali or Fiji wasn't ever going to temporarily repair her alcohol affected serotonin receptors.
> 
> In fact it quite often makes things worse, because staying in paradise notwithstanding, being out of the comfort zone of day to day home life familiarity, leaves a residual anxiety that needs an extra dampening down effect to maintain a sense of emotional equilibrium.
> 
> That maybe in the form of increased denial, projection, drug of choice or addiction usage, or whatever.
> 
> *Your asking for intimacy was only ever going to go one way.*
> 
> She is sick and there is nothing you can do to change that.
> 
> I hope you can have some fun with your kids on your holiday.
> You three deserve some fun.


And yet as has been pointed out and mentioned by Horizon himself his wife had no hesitation at all in dropping her knickers and sucking off OM.


----------



## Horizon

Quote of the Day:

"This isn't working, you can't get over it"

eeerrrrrggggghhhhh....

The children and I are having a great time. I have got past that sh!t from the other day. It was just a reaction. My WS is a hell of a lot more screwed up than I realised. Her family has done a job on her alright, particularly her father. I do feel for her but only so much - it's her battle.

Man, for a few days we were fighting gale force winds and at one stage 5-6 metre swells. Have had to miss one stop and have just been informed that we are not going into Fjordland / Milford Sound due to further dangerous conditions. The Fjord pilot there said no way he was going to take our ship in. Bummer, that place is glorious.

Oh well, drinks and partying.


----------



## Horizon

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Bali or Fiji wasn't ever going to temporarily repair her alcohol affected serotonin receptors.
> 
> In fact it quite often makes things worse, because staying in paradise notwithstanding, being out of the comfort zone of day to day home life familiarity, leaves a residual anxiety that needs an extra dampening down effect to maintain a sense of emotional equilibrium.
> 
> That maybe in the form of increased denial, projection, drug of choice or addiction usage, or whatever.
> 
> Your asking for intimacy was only ever going to go one way.
> 
> She is sick and there is nothing you can do to change that.
> 
> I hope you can have some fun with your kids on your holiday.
> You three deserve some fun.


True BA7. In much closer proximity for 2 weeks (close quarters) and using any old argument detail, anything - sleep, my God the sleeping! - she keeps the distance, the "dampening down". Still, I bought her a nice, no strings, gift today - she loves it. But the distance, the remoteness....I guess she must think that is how things will remain. There is nothing else, there is no next level, breakthrough moment etc. It just is - zero.


----------



## Horizon

Have had to borrow money from a family member to tide us over until next pay. That caused an argument at the end of our holiday which was false recon repaired by a few hours of disconnect. 

I made a crack about the family member knowing what the money was really for - she hated that, hates the idea that anyone might know anything - about anything.

I am going back to the spare room. I admit I re-read the e-mails between her and the POSOM after we returned. Madness and reveals a self flagellation characteristic in me but it helped me solidify my thoughts. I can't stand this.

My problems though are some health issues, mainly dental which is super expensive and which I am forced to endure and just getting that job so I can move on.

I just can't stand being around her. I hate that pitying feeling I get and the fact that I'm worried she will come apart at the seams. I have to be focused and quietly brutal.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Have had to borrow money from a family member to tide us over until next pay. That caused an argument at the end of our holiday which was false recon repaired by a few hours of disconnect.
> 
> I made a crack about the family member knowing what the money was really for - she hated that, hates the idea that anyone might know anything - about anything.
> 
> I am going back to the spare room. I admit I re-read the e-mails between her and the POSOM after we returned. Madness and reveals a self flagellation characteristic in me but it helped me solidify my thoughts. I can't stand this.
> 
> My problems though are some health issues, mainly dental which is super expensive and which I am forced to endure and just getting that job so I can move on.
> 
> I just can't stand being around her. I hate that pitying feeling I get and the fact that I'm worried she will come apart at the seams. I have to be focused and quietly brutal.


You don't have to do anything but get on with your life. I wouldn't worry about her, her choices. Eventually you will get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Many times the discussion of it, the replay is being addicted to drama. I know it's hard to see it that way but that's what it is.

You have to release and renew. It feels so good to know that what was an important part of your life is no longer damaging you like this anymore.


----------



## Horizon

treyvion said:


> You don't have to do anything but get on with your life. I wouldn't worry about her, her choices. Eventually you will get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Many times the discussion of it, the replay is being addicted to drama. I know it's hard to see it that way but that's what it is.
> 
> You have to release and renew. It feels so good to know that what was an important part of your life is no longer damaging you like this anymore.


Thank you t. Yes, I have been addicted to the drama. Most days she carries on like all is normal - talks to me like we have for years. Those little asides, the cement of communication. Good stuff I mean, the tone of words etc. It brings on some guilt. I am working on my resolve through goals; where i want to be this year. Yeah, the damage....wow, has there been a lot of that. I've chosen not to live like that. I will have to tough it out until I can get the finances in order. The main thing obviously is that I both know what I want and do not want. Took a while to sort that. Our holiday was final confirmation really.


----------



## treyvion

Horizon said:


> Thank you t. Yes, I have been addicted to the drama. Most days she carries on like all is normal - talks to me like we have for years. Those little asides, the cement of communication. Good stuff I mean, the tone of words etc. It brings on some guilt. I am working on my resolve through goals; where i want to be this year. Yeah, the damage....wow, has there been a lot of that. I've chosen not to live like that. I will have to tough it out until I can get the finances in order. The main thing obviously is that I both know what I want and do not want. Took a while to sort that. Our holiday was final confirmation really.


It got all your attention, because it was important to you. You talked about the most important thing in your life at that time and tried to work past it.

It didn't work. Give her none to almost none attention and focus on what you need to do for your own life.

There will be someone else, and now that you have been armed with this additional wisdom you can come out of it better.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

I've only read the last few pages of this thread, since the holidays. Just one comment:

You realize that this isn't detachment, don't you?

If you were truly detached, you wouldn't participate in the drama - you certainly wouldn't exacerbate it - you wouldn't dwell on the past or fret about the fu2re.

You'd be posting about how you and the kids are getting along, and about your plans for your fu2re. But instead you continue 2 post about what you think she thinks about you and give play by plays of your arguments and blame games.

I hope you can really detach at some point.

-ol' 2long


----------



## Horizon

Some more truth. Thanks 2long. You are dead right. I have indulged in the drama as a means of coping. I have detached in ways that have fooled myself. In reality I was limiting communication and being neutral but in my heart I wanted her to come to me. Deep down I am still dependent in my thinking. I have a hell of a lot of work to do and there is a hell of a lot to face this year with the upbringing of our children, their stability, key. I can see how my WS is trying to move fwd as though all is OK but in reality so much damage has been done that we are dead in the water. It has only ever been my dependency which has blocked my passage fwd. I have to break that knot - it's a tough one.


----------



## Nucking Futs

How about an update Horizon?


----------



## Horizon

Not a great deal of change for us, only for me. I have a lot of sh!t to get through with my counselor. He's an older bloke - a really wise dude who is bringing it back to me. He's not really allowing me to divert or blame but to see what my role is and what I can do the fix me. I have plenty of anger, let's just leave it at that.

My WS and I went to a wedding last weekend; huge family thing. I had two of my brothers at my table who I do not speak to other than hello and goodbye and at some point my WS and I got down to some 'deep' talk about us. Bottom line is that she was well fueled by then and her remorse and regret was aided by that. I kept the peace and was very tender & supportive.

Later that night I realised that it was just more BS. Not that she didn't mean it but that everything returns to where it was before hand. There is no follow up, nothing is mentioned. There are no plans, no action, just coexistence. 

She is happy because she has her second OS business trip coming up, this time to the USA. I'd be smiling to. So there is some adventure for her and that's about it. More domestic bliss for me. I have had more work but it is just $ to keep the wolf from the door - no fulfillment really. 

There has been zero physical in any way shape or form for almost 5 months. There were always excuses before, an argument or some other thing, and now it is all left unsaid. I do not approach her or hint in any way. Ironic isn't it - when this was the case in the early days of this drought she told me how great she felt that there was no pressure and how she wanted to explore intimacy again - all BS. 

I feel like I have been played like a fiddle. All i want to do is have that big conversation - give her the ultimatum speech, but I have so few cards in my deck to leverage with. She just rolls on like all is OK - really it is embarrassing because I have doubted my own take on this. As though I had it all wrong somehow; that it was just me.

Anyway I am more than entitled to put it all on the line now. I promised myself I would not go through 2014 like this. Think about it - yes i struggle with my weight and I have shortcomings but I have really had a shot in the last 10 months. I'm much fitter, I dress better, I have cut out sarcasm and snide remarks. I have really tried to lift my game.

It is mostly for me but I would be a liar if I didn't admit that I wanted some of it to rub off on her but she has virtually nothing to say about it. I don't float her boat.

Think how ridiculous this scenario is - I have done all this work and she has nothing to change or improve. She is fine. I am the one who makes adjustments. How can another person think that continuing in a relationship but denying your SO any type of intimacy is healthy? I am being forced to act. 

Let me put it this way - if she had significant blocks for whatever reason (other than me not doing it for her) which were preventing her form being physical you would hope you'd be brought into the loop on it. No, I'm always guessing, wondering.

Other than that I noticed on her new work notepad that she had viewed Craigslist, Plenty of Fish and Omegle. I just entered the first letter of the alphabet in the search box and these were in the drop down box. 

Seems obvious I know but I have not raised it. I just know there will be a big "I feel violated" argument or it was my work colleague or 'I have a right to curiosity...." or whatever more BS. It doesn't look good in light of our history but this woman does not need to care take my emotions. It wouldn't occur to her that I might feel bent out of shape by it.

Got to head out to the gym now. Keep well everyone.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Not a great deal of change for us, only for me. I have a lot of sh!t to get through with my counselor. He's an older bloke - a really wise dude who is bringing it back to me. He's not really allowing me to divert or blame but to see what my role is and what I can do the fix me. I have plenty of anger, let's just leave it at that.
> 
> My WS and I went to a wedding last weekend; huge family thing. I had two of my brothers at my table who I do not speak to other than hello and goodbye and at some point my WS and I got down to some 'deep' talk about us. Bottom line is that she was well fueled by then and her remorse and regret was aided by that. I kept the peace and was very tender & supportive.
> 
> Later that night I realised that it was just more BS. Not that she didn't mean it but that everything returns to where it was before hand. There is no follow up, nothing is mentioned. There are no plans, no action, just coexistence.
> 
> She is happy because she has her second OS business trip coming up, this time to the USA. I'd be smiling to. So there is some adventure for her and that's about it. More domestic bliss for me. I have had more work but it is just $ to keep the wolf from the door - no fulfillment really.
> 
> There has been zero physical in any way shape or form for almost 5 months. There were always excuses before, an argument or some other thing, and now it is all left unsaid. I do not approach her or hint in any way. Ironic isn't it - when this was the case in the early days of this drought she told me how great she felt that there was no pressure and how she wanted to explore intimacy again - all BS.
> 
> I feel like I have been played like a fiddle. All i want to do is have that big conversation - give her the ultimatum speech, but I have so few cards in my deck to leverage with. She just rolls on like all is OK - really it is embarrassing because I have doubted my own take on this. As though I had it all wrong somehow; that it was just me.
> 
> Anyway I am more than entitled to put it all on the line now. I promised myself I would not go through 2014 like this. Think about it - yes i struggle with my weight and I have shortcomings but I have really had a shot in the last 10 months. I'm much fitter, I dress better, I have cut out sarcasm and snide remarks. I have really tried to lift my game.
> 
> It is mostly for me but I would be a liar if I didn't admit that I wanted some of it to rub off on her but she has virtually nothing to say about it. I don't float her boat.
> 
> Think how ridiculous this scenario is - I have done all this work and she has nothing to change or improve. She is fine. I am the one who makes adjustments. How can another person think that continuing in a relationship but denying your SO any type of intimacy is healthy? I am being forced to act.
> 
> Let me put it this way - if she had significant blocks for whatever reason (other than me not doing it for her) which were preventing her form being physical you would hope you'd be brought into the loop on it. No, I'm always guessing, wondering.
> 
> Other than that I noticed on her new work notepad that she had viewed Craigslist, Plenty of Fish and Omegle. I just entered the first letter of the alphabet in the search box and these were in the drop down box.
> 
> Seems obvious I know but I have not raised it. I just know there will be a big "I feel violated" argument or it was my work colleague or 'I have a right to curiosity...." or whatever more BS. It doesn't look good in light of our history but this woman does not need to care take my emotions. It wouldn't occur to her that I might feel bent out of shape by it.
> 
> Got to head out to the gym now. Keep well everyone.


Good update. Good progress too, even if it doesn't seem like much to you this update shows that you're approaching the mental state you need. You're not quite there yet because you still care what she does, but you're getting closer.


----------



## brokeneric

I am where you are, not wanting to move on but need to. Eventually you will have to move on. Try doing it with some semblance of self-respect.


----------



## davecarter

Horizon, mate, you're an Aussie...all I have to say is...


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> Not a great deal of change for us, only for me. I have a lot of sh!t to get through with my counselor. He's an older bloke - a really wise dude who is bringing it back to me. He's not really allowing me to divert or blame but to see what my role is and what I can do the fix me. I have plenty of anger, let's just leave it at that.
> 
> My WS and I went to a wedding last weekend; huge family thing. I had two of my brothers at my table who I do not speak to other than hello and goodbye and at some point my WS and I got down to some 'deep' talk about us. Bottom line is that she was well fueled by then and her remorse and regret was aided by that. I kept the peace and was very tender & supportive.
> 
> Later that night I realised that it was just more BS. Not that she didn't mean it but that everything returns to where it was before hand. There is no follow up, nothing is mentioned. There are no plans, no action, just coexistence.
> 
> She is happy because she has her second OS business trip coming up, this time to the USA. I'd be smiling to. So there is some adventure for her and that's about it. More domestic bliss for me. I have had more work but it is just $ to keep the wolf from the door - no fulfillment really.
> 
> There has been zero physical in any way shape or form for almost 5 months. There were always excuses before, an argument or some other thing, and now it is all left unsaid. I do not approach her or hint in any way. Ironic isn't it - when this was the case in the early days of this drought she told me how great she felt that there was no pressure and how she wanted to explore intimacy again - all BS.
> 
> I feel like I have been played like a fiddle. All i want to do is have that big conversation - give her the ultimatum speech, but I have so few cards in my deck to leverage with. She just rolls on like all is OK - really it is embarrassing because I have doubted my own take on this. As though I had it all wrong somehow; that it was just me.
> 
> Anyway I am more than entitled to put it all on the line now. I promised myself I would not go through 2014 like this. Think about it - yes i struggle with my weight and I have shortcomings but I have really had a shot in the last 10 months. I'm much fitter, I dress better, I have cut out sarcasm and snide remarks. I have really tried to lift my game.
> 
> It is mostly for me but I would be a liar if I didn't admit that I wanted some of it to rub off on her but she has virtually nothing to say about it. I don't float her boat.
> 
> Think how ridiculous this scenario is - I have done all this work and she has nothing to change or improve. She is fine. I am the one who makes adjustments. How can another person think that continuing in a relationship but denying your SO any type of intimacy is healthy? I am being forced to act.
> 
> Let me put it this way - if she had significant blocks for whatever reason (other than me not doing it for her) which were preventing her form being physical you would hope you'd be brought into the loop on it. No, I'm always guessing, wondering.
> 
> Other than that I noticed on her new work notepad that she had viewed Craigslist, Plenty of Fish and Omegle. I just entered the first letter of the alphabet in the search box and these were in the drop down box.
> 
> Seems obvious I know but I have not raised it. I just know there will be a big "I feel violated" argument or it was my work colleague or 'I have a right to curiosity...." or whatever more BS. It doesn't look good in light of our history but this woman does not need to care take my emotions. It wouldn't occur to her that I might feel bent out of shape by it.
> 
> Got to head out to the gym now. Keep well everyone.


After this affair you are letting your WW still have a job with over night trips?

You need a check up from the neck up. The lights are on but it appears nobody is home.


----------



## Nucking Futs

theroad said:


> After this affair you are letting your WW still have a job with over night trips?
> 
> You need a check up from the neck up. The lights are on but it appears nobody is home.


He's not "letting" her do anything. Horizon has no leverage at all. 

There's no need to be rude. Take it easy.


----------



## turnera

I'm curious - why are you NOT having that conversation?


----------



## warlock07

Go visit a prostitute and get laid. It is legal in Australia fro what I remember


----------



## illwill

Nucking Futs said:


> He's not "letting" her do anything. Horizon has no leverage at all.
> 
> There's no need to be rude. Take it easy.


He is letting her do it while still married to him.


----------



## Horizon

My WS is earning the $ around here. There is an argument for the point raised though. She went ahead and applied for this position in a field of work she loves. She has built up national retail skills & connections that are in demand. Her pay has doubled in the last 4 years. I am always told how the interviews are going but that's about it. 

I did have an issue with her being away OS three times a year; more because it limited my job prospects which are f**ked up anyway, but also for obvious reasons. This wasn't discussed other than "we'll work it out" etc. It is selfish but we need the $ or we are out the front door. So she is getting what she wants - the new euro style car, the clothes, the job. I'm not in the ballpark in that sense but I'll just keep rewarding myself with how far I have come, my contribution as a parent and a Father. 

It has got to the point now where the subject of sex, which will arise from time to time in whatever way, is dismissed. If I make some observation or pun, not necessarily about us, she is very quick to stop the subject dead in it's tracks. It is almost like that subject has been expunged from our lives. If it's not hinted at or discussed then it doesn't have to be dealt with.

Boy is my WS in for a big surprise when I finally find the courage to put my words into action. I am prevaricating - trying to find the right timing (an excuse - yes). I know it is weak but I'm uncertain - basically I'm scared of what will be the real outcome of this. Her tail is up, she seems content, the children are happy, I'm the only one wanting to throw a grenade into the joint. 

It is hard to find the strength to lay it on the line and say enough is enough - all this time, all these words and yet no action, nothing. But the key thing is I have to get away from this dependent idea that her decisions or actions are what I am waiting on. I have to find it in me to say that this is the action I am taking, that I have decided what I want.

Look, I wont lie, I am struggling with this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> My WS is earning the $ around here. There is an argument for the point raised though. She went ahead and applied for this position in a field of work she loves. She has built up national retail skills & connections that are in demand. Her pay has doubled in the last 4 years. I am always told how the interviews are going but that's about it.
> 
> I did have an issue with her being away OS three times a year; more because it limited my job prospects which are f**ked up anyway, but also for obvious reasons. This wasn't discussed other than "we'll work it out" etc. It is selfish but we need the $ or we are out the front door. So she is getting what she wants - the new euro style car, the clothes, the job. I'm not in the ballpark in that sense but I'll just keep rewarding myself with how far I have come, my contribution as a parent and a Father.
> 
> It has got to the point now where the subject of sex, *which will arise from time to time* in whatever way, is dismissed. *If I make some observation or pun, not necessarily about us, she is very quick to stop the subject dead in it's tracks.* It is almost like that subject has been expunged from our lives. If it's not hinted at or discussed then it doesn't have to be dealt with.


:slap:

Horizon, honestly I don't know if you just can't grasp the concept or can't control yourself. _Stop talking about sex in any way with her._ No jokes. No puns. No off color comments. Just expunge it from your vocabulary. Your attitude should be that you wouldn't F her if she had the last ***** on earth. When you talk to her it should be like you're talking to this woman.









I'm with warlock07. You need to get laid but you're not in any kind of mental condition right now to inflict that on a normal woman. Go find a prostitute.



Horizon said:


> Boy is my WS in for a big surprise when I finally find the courage to put my words into action. I am prevaricating - trying to find the right timing (an excuse - yes). I know it is weak but I'm uncertain - basically I'm scared of what will be the real outcome of this. Her tail is up, she seems content, the children are happy, *I'm the only one wanting to throw a grenade into the joint. *
> 
> It is hard to find the strength to lay it on the line and say enough is enough - all this time, all these words and yet no action, nothing. But the key thing is I have to get away from this dependent idea that her decisions or actions are what I am waiting on. I have to find it in me to say that this is the action I am taking, that I have decided what I want.
> 
> Look, I wont lie, I am struggling with this.


Your SO threw a grenade into the family. You need to crawl out of the wreckage rather than trying to convince yourself that it's all still good. Do you really think the kids haven't noticed the tension? 

Speaking of your kids, you're raising them in an unhealthy environment. The sooner you split from her and get your own place the sooner they'll have somewhere to get away from her. You really need to stop trying to protect your kids from breaking up their family and start trying to protect them from their mothers downward spiral.


----------



## Nucking Futs

illwill said:


> He is letting her do it while still married to him.


They're not married, and how the hell is he supposed to stop her? She doesn't give a rats rosy red rectum what he thinks and he can't work up the gumption to leave her.


----------



## bandit.45

Fvck is this thread still going???


----------



## Chaparral

You're in a sexless marriage, craigslist and the other sites she visits indicates she is getting plenty.

Have you checked to if she is on A.M. Australia is supposed to be the only country where more women are on that website than men.


----------



## Chaparral

You're the live in maid and babysitter, why would she want to have sex with you. She does what she wants. You pretend.


----------



## lordmayhem

Chaparral said:


> You're the live in maid and babysitter, why would she want to have sex with you. She does what she wants. You pretend.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## warlock07

bandit.45 said:


> Fvck is this thread still going???


Unfortunately, he alos thinks he is in R.


----------



## Nucking Futs

warlock07 said:


> Unfortunately, he alos thinks he is in R.


Whoa, is that right? Horizon, do you think you're in R?


----------



## Pepper123

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



Horizon said:


> This must be a year of change. I have to find that strength to move on from this. It is really like a yoke around my neck. I cannot go on feeling great one moment and sh!t the next.
> 
> I have held out hope for a genuine reconciliation but I don't see a thing that is going to make that happen other than I just forget about it and let my WS dictate terms - dictate when there is any physical - any type of affection or intimacy. That can't continue.


Horizon, Love... re-read your words. 
Lack of intimacy is not okay. You cannot go on like this. You cannot allow her to dictate your happiness and state of mind. 

Find a hooker if you want, but ultimately I think you will just feel more empty... but maybe that is just a woman's perspective. 

She is using you every single day, and you are letting her. She is not a good person. You seem like a great dad and an honorable man. Many women would love to share their life with you, once you open that door and are able. But you have to open the door to the rest of your life...


----------



## turnera

What would your high school/college friends think of you if they saw you now? They'd laugh you out of the room for being such a wuss.

Is this what you intended to be, growing up?

You're a kept man to a SugarMomma and you can't even acknowledge it.


----------



## Horizon

I don't believe this is an unhealthy environment for our children. Arguments, conflict is virtually non-existent now. There were a couple of blow-ups before our holiday in January but that was nothing like before. Our children are happy, they have their friends, their sport and they are both doing well in school.

The simple fact is I am not getting my needs met and I will have to wear the fact that despite what my WS did to me I will be taking action that will disrupt this environment. It's like I'm f**ked every which way. But I have the right to act - I can't get past what she did to me, to us, and how she has just blown it off like it is nothing.

It is not my problem to solve her issues. Like I said I'm being played.

PS: I wouldn't go near a Pro with a ten foot barge poll - errgggh


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> I don't believe this is an unhealthy environment for our children. Arguments, conflict is virtually non-existent now. There were a couple of blow-ups before our holiday in January but that was nothing like before. Our children are happy, they have their friends, their sport and they are both doing well in school.
> 
> The simple fact is I am not getting my needs met and I will have to wear the fact that despite what my WS did to me I will be taking action that will disrupt this environment. It's like I'm f**ked every which way. But I have the right to act - I can't get past what she did to me, to us, and how she has just blown it off like it is nothing.
> 
> It is not my problem to solve her issues. Like I said I'm being played.
> 
> PS: *I wouldn't go near a Pro with a ten foot barge poll - errgggh*


ONS then. It would do you a world of good to get laid. You might also want to get your testosterone levels checked. Time favors no man.


----------



## turnera

So you're going to do something or not? Looks like not.


----------



## treyvion

Nucking Futs said:


> ONS then. It would do you a world of good to get laid. You might also want to get your testosterone levels checked. Time favors no man.


Yes, get some pu$$y. Lower your standards if you have to. Start the circulation up. Once you get into the swing of things this will be all behind you, and your test levels and confidence will be up.

Sex does so much for the ego of someone who is sexless or recent bad relation.


----------



## turnera

I don't usually advise this, but in your situation, you need to do SOMETHING to remind you that you are the man of the house, not the slave.


----------



## WyshIknew

Well I dunno. A little while ago I got lambasted and told that my morals were disgusting for daring to suggest that a WS would be hypocritical to complain if their BS were to get some action.

And here people are encouraging Horizon to go down that exact route. It's a funny old world.


----------



## Nucking Futs

WyshIknew said:


> Well I dunno. A little while ago I got lambasted and told that my morals were disgusting for daring to suggest that a WS would be hypocritical to complain if their BS were to get some action.
> 
> And here people are encouraging Horizon to go down that exact route. It's a funny old world.


If it was in the context of a revenge affair I would say no to it but that is not the case here. I'm advising he get laid here with the full understanding that there is no hope for reconciliation and at this point it's become a mental health issue for him.


----------



## treyvion

Nucking Futs said:


> If it was in the context of a revenge affair I would say no to it but that is not the case here. I'm advising he get laid here with the full understanding that there is no hope for reconciliation and at this point it's become a mental health issue for him.


It'll be the best thing he's done for himself. He will easily see he can go back in there with the soon to be ex for more punishment if he chooses, or to stay out and deal with females who want to deal with him.


----------



## Horizon

My Testosterone level is excellent. And I have been on a hormone replacement gel for roughly 3 yrs - around the same time I was diagnosed Diabetic. And I have that in check as well - seeing the Prof next month for another check-up.

I'm open to a ONS - I need it. Nothing coming my way though, the Fems don't check me out. 

I reckon it's because I still carry a bit of a gut and have developed a frown. I feel a lot better but I'm obviously going to have to work harder. I've caught myself in the mirror from time to time and I just don't have an upbeat demeanor. I'm not hang dog but I think this whole shebang has f**ked me over more than I realise and I'm showing it.

It wouldn't hurt to get out there in the market. I'll have to line up a night out with some mates.


----------



## WyshIknew

Nucking Futs said:


> If it was in the context of a revenge affair I would say no to it but that is not the case here. I'm advising he get laid here with the full understanding that there is no hope for reconciliation and at this point it's become a mental health issue for him.


What's the difference?

I apologise if I'm wrong but I think it was you who told me that my morals were disgusting. I've looked for the thread but I think it got deleted.

How can it be morally disgusting for me to suggest that a WS would be hypocritical to complain if a BS got some strange and yet perfectly ok to encourage someone to go get some? :scratchhead:

I also had a similar incident on tears thread. Many posters were critical of her husband for dating other women. I supported him in this and again people wagged their fingers at me. People just aren't consistent.

In tears case her husband told tears that he was done. She effed around with another guy, he told her he was done and the marriage was done. He did it the mans way.

Encouraging Horizon to sneak around behind his wife's back (I know they aren't married but I see no difference between an LTR and a marriage) is not the mans way.

If he goes down this route he should tell her that she effed around, she broke their marriage, she obviously has no intention of fixing it so they are done.
He will be looking for some loving and once finances allow he will be going his own way.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

WyshIknew said:


> Encouraging Horizon to sneak around behind his wife's back (I know they aren't married but I see no difference between an LTR and a marriage) is not the mans way.
> 
> If he goes down this route he should tell her that she effed around, she broke their marriage, she obviously has no intention if fixing it so they are done.
> He will be looking for some loving and once finances allow he will be going his own way.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## Nucking Futs

WyshIknew said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> I apologise if I'm wrong but I think it was you who told me that my morals were disgusting. I've looked for the thread but I think it got deleted.
> 
> How can it be morally disgusting for me to suggest that a WS would be hypocritical to complain if a BS got some strange and yet perfectly ok to encourage someone to go get some? :scratchhead:


I don't remember this but it's possible.



WyshIknew said:


> I also had a similar incident on tears thread. Many posters were critical of her husband for dating other women. I supported him in this and again people wagged their fingers at me. People just aren't consistent.
> 
> In tears case her husband told tears that he was done. She effed around with another guy, he told her he was done and the marriage was done. He did it the mans way.


I agree with you about tears husband, and it's the same situation here. This relationship is dead. She is not interested in reviving it.



WyshIknew said:


> Encouraging Horizon to sneak around behind his wife's back (I know they aren't married but I see no difference between an LTR and a marriage) is not the mans way.
> 
> If he goes down this route he should tell her that she effed around, she broke their marriage, she obviously has no intention of fixing it so they are done.
> He will be looking for some loving and once finances allow he will be going his own way.


I never said he should sneak around, I said he should get laid. He should be out living his own life and should not consider her his mate any more, just a room mate. A drunk, obnoxious room mate.


----------



## Nucking Futs

WyshIknew said:


> What's the difference?


The difference is the relationship. If there is hope for reconciliation then sex outside the relationship is wrong unless all parties are in agreement about it. If there is no hope for reconciliation but the partners are stuck with each other for financial reasons as in this case there is no need to refrain.


----------



## WyshIknew

Providing he does it the right way I am in complete agreement. Just don't do it in an underhand way.
First he has to tell her that due to her actions and subsequent inaction he and their relationship are done.

Horizon, you seem to be a bit down on yourself, not surprisingly after all your problems.

My avatar is a pic of me holding my beautiful granddaughter Amelia Grace.

As you can see I am no oil painting, quite plain really, and don't have a golden ratio. But I get the odd bit of female interest. Women like men and they like all types of men.

As a good hearted family man who can pull his weight in the house, dresses well, has confidence and won't take any shet your stock would be very high in the dating market at your age.

Yes, if you have a beergut continue to work on that as it helps to at least be in shape.

There is a world of women out there who would love the chance for a good, thoughtful man to share their life with.

Just tell her first ok?


----------



## theroad

Horizon said:


> My Testosterone level is excellent. And I have been on a hormone replacement gel for roughly 3 yrs - around the same time I was diagnosed Diabetic. And I have that in check as well - seeing the Prof next month for another check-up.
> 
> I'm open to a ONS - I need it. Nothing coming my way though, the Fems don't check me out.
> 
> I reckon it's because I still carry a bit of a gut and have developed a frown. I feel a lot better but I'm obviously going to have to work harder. I've caught myself in the mirror from time to time and I just don't have an upbeat demeanor. I'm not hang dog but I think this whole shebang has f**ked me over more than I realise and I'm showing it.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt to get out there in the market. I'll have to line up a night out with some mates.


A lot of guys never get hit on. All that means is you have to work for it. Complaining about a gut has never gotten rid of one.


----------



## Horizon

theroad said:


> A lot of guys never get hit on. All that means is you have to work for it. Complaining about a gut has never gotten rid of one.


I'm working on it - I should have said that at my age it is proving hard to reduce. I haven't given up, there is less gut than before - still gymning it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> I'm working on it - I should have said that at my age it is proving hard to reduce. I haven't given up, there is less gut than before - still gymning it.


So do you think you're in R?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Horizon said:


> I don't believe this is an unhealthy environment for our children. Arguments, conflict is virtually non-existent now. There were a couple of blow-ups before our holiday in January but that was nothing like before. Our children are happy, they have their friends, their sport and they are both doing well in school.
> 
> The simple fact is I am not getting my needs met and I will have to wear the fact that despite what my WS did to me I will be taking action that will disrupt this environment. It's like I'm f**ked every which way. But I have the right to act - I can't get past what she did to me, to us, and how she has just blown it off like it is nothing.
> 
> It is not my problem to solve her issues. Like I said I'm being played.
> 
> PS: I wouldn't go near a Pro with a ten foot barge poll - errgggh


Honest question - do you really think you kids don't see the dysfunction in your marriage? That they don't understand that things are not right, even if they don't know exactly what is going on? Because they do. You two are not fooling them and you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.


----------



## turnera

About what I was thinking. Remember that you are 100% what they learn to be. If they see a Giver and a Taker and the Giver being run over, guess what they grow up to be? Givers or Takers. Instead of emotionally healthy middle-of-the-road people who will Give AND Take in moderation.


----------



## doubletrouble

Horizon said:


> I'm working on it - I should have said that *at my age *it is proving hard to reduce. I haven't given up, there is less gut than before - still gymning it.


Sorry friend, that's an excuse. I'm 55 and know you can be ripped if you choose to be. But you have to decide to be something that's not you today. 

Get Tom Venuto's book.


----------



## Decorum

Horizon said:


> , the Fems don't check me out.
> 
> I reckon it's because I still carry a bit of a gut and have developed a frown.


Hey this is pretty shallow thinking; …it is the frown not the gut.

If you carry yourself with confidence and an accepting smile and make a simple start to a conversation you will have a lot more opportunity than you believe, there is no doubt.

You may not achieve Machiavelli’s harem but you absolutely can meet and date cute woman especially in your age bracket. It’s more important to have a stable income and be able to connect than anything else (boy and I was calling you shallow ha ha ah ha).

Having said that I am not encouraging you to step out on your marriage, but this same mis-understanding regarding your worth (i.e. what you have to offer) is something that hinders your every relationship, and stunts your relationship even with your wife.

“As a man thinks in his heart so is he” if the first though in your head undermines your self-confidence it will be obvious, and someone else cannot prop you up, that is why it is called “self” confidence.

Take care!


----------



## Horizon

Nucking Futs said:


> So do you think you're in R?


Not any more. This is co-existence. I had fooled myself there for a long while that it was R, then I used to joke that it was false R and then referred to it as Limbo Land. So, I'm progressing!

People I had a massive session with my counselor this morning. The amount of sh!t to get through is staggering. If you think you have a handle on my issues think again. My dependency / co-dependency, mal-adaptive behavior; all those tricks I used as a youngster to get me through an abusive childhood are slowly being peeled back.

These are the default behaviors I have been using in relationships for years. After all those different psych sessions in earlier years and all the reading and talking it is only now in my 50's that I am truly seeing myself.

Think about this; even after all this sh!t since DDay I have still been falling into the habit of dependency. Care taking my WS's emotions because she hurt herself again (yes almost a year to the day and she falls down the stairs again!). Finding excuses not to act, always deferring.

But the big one is that I had tricked myself into believing I was forging ahead by building more evidence and thus resentment, all this ammunition to say "Look what you have done....". What I have to do is to choose the life I want to live - but not directed by her behavior. It has to be me choosing that life I deserve.

I didn't realise that I was still allowing her to call the shots in my own bent way. I'd look into the crystal ball and weigh up the pros & cons and take the soft option. She didn't have to say a word - I was playing her role and my role. Do you get what I mean? All my life I have gone along as though I had no voice and no choice. This happened from a very early time in my life.

In relation to my WS and what I have to do some of you will call out "Hello!!" because it is so obvious to you and you have mentioned this before to me. But it was never going to sink in until I could really learn what I was doing. It's that basic.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Not any more. This is co-existence. I had fooled myself there for a long while that it was R, then I used to joke that it was false R and then referred to it as Limbo Land. So, I'm progressing!
> 
> People I had a massive session with my counselor this morning. The amount of sh!t to get through is staggering. If you think you have a handle on my issues think again. My dependency / co-dependency, mal-adaptive behavior; all those tricks I used as a youngster to get me through an abusive childhood are slowly being peeled back.
> 
> These are the default behaviors I have been using in relationships for years. After all those different psych sessions in earlier years and all the reading and talking it is only now in my 50's that I am truly seeing myself.
> 
> Think about this; even after all this sh!t since DDay I have still been falling into the habit of dependency. Care taking my WS's emotions because she hurt herself again (yes almost a year to the day and she falls down the stairs again!). Finding excuses not to act, always deferring.
> 
> But the big one is that I had tricked myself into believing I was forging ahead by building more evidence and thus resentment, all this ammunition to say "Look what you have done....". What I have to do is to choose the life I want to live - but not directed by her behavior. It has to be me choosing that life I deserve.
> 
> I didn't realise that I was still allowing her to call the shots in my own bent way. I'd look into the crystal ball and weigh up the pros & cons and take the soft option. She didn't have to say a word - I was playing her role and my role. Do you get what I mean? All my life I have gone along as though I had no voice and no choice. This happened from a very early time in my life.
> 
> In relation to my WS and what I have to do some of you will call out "Hello!!" because it is so obvious to you and you have mentioned this before to me. But it was never going to sink in until I could really learn what I was doing. It's that basic.


I think you'll find good advice for what you need to do in this video:

Click for video


----------



## turnera

You're a lot like LifeScript. It took him at least three attempts to leave his abusive wife and we're still not even sure he'll stay away; he still hasn't filed for divorce. You really do have to get there in your own time.

Just make sure you get there!


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> *I don't believe this is an unhealthy environment for our children.* Arguments, conflict is virtually non-existent now. There were a couple of blow-ups before our holiday in January but that was nothing like before. Our children are happy, they have their friends, their sport and they are both doing well in school.
> 
> The simple fact is I am not getting my needs met and I will have to wear the fact that despite what my WS did to me I will be taking action that will disrupt this environment. It's like I'm f**ked every which way. But I have the right to act - I can't get past what she did to me, to us, and how she has just blown it off like it is nothing.
> 
> It is not my problem to solve her issues. Like I said I'm being played.
> 
> PS: I wouldn't go near a Pro with a ten foot barge poll - errgggh


Horizon,

You are deluding yourself. You're wayward partner is an alcoholic. You children have to live with that. She has contempt for you. Your children know that. Yet you fail to do anything about it. Your children see that.

Please, please, please, as I and others have urged, get in touch with AlAnon and get help for your children and yourself.

Still praying for you.


----------



## Lifer

Hi Horizon,

I've made my way through your entire thread, finally. I'm new here, but I'd like to encourage you. You have taken up the hard work of self improvement, and have seen some results. Keep at it. I want to share 2 quotes with you, that I say, over and over to people I counsel. I have to remind myself often, as well. 

1. "It will never be any easier to fix, than it is right now." Let everything you do be moving you toward your goal. I can see you want to reconcile with your WS. Change you, and you change your relationship. Don't be toxic in your approach. You know full well how she responds to how you approach. Change it. Be a leader. She wants you to lead her, even though she fights it. Don't be a dictator, but a leader. 

Here's the tough part. Forgive your wife the affair. I know she is rug sweeping, and minimizing, and you may never know the truth. The problem is that you need to forgive her more than she needs to be forgiven. The unforgiveness, bitterness, and inability to see anything but the A is killing you. Literally killing you. It is also destroying your home, and your kids. Don't worry about the shame. Forgive her, tell her you love her, and you want to have a wonderful life, and that the affair has cost you all enough, already. If you want to have a great marriage, and even sex life, begin to behave, right now, as if you already have it. I don't know everything, but this jumps out at me from your thread. Realize this, you have both been hurt very badly in life, and you are treating each other as if the other is the sole abuser. You are both acting out of PAIN, and hurt. Hurting people hurt people.

2. "There is no use changing, as long as the excuse still works." We all know that excuses really only work for the person making the excuses. Yes, the adulterous affair took place. It does not have to define you, her, or your marriage. I believe you want to R, so do it. Make yourself, and your family happy. Be the man you can be, and lead your family out of all this pain, and despair. 

It won't be easy. It never is. But, you'll know you gave it your vest shot, and you may just get a great life out of the deal. Tell her you don't understand how, or why, she did it. Tell her you don't need to understand, but that you understand she is damaged, as you are, and that you are better together. But, you don't want to exist, you want to live, and enjoy life, together. 

Horizon, as hard as it is to understand, you guys need each other. But, you don't need some broken shell of each other. You need each other at your best. Don't fight your wife. Fight FOR her, and FOR your marriage. 

All of this does not mean you have to be a victim, and take crap. It means change, and change is never easy. 

Please understand I have not tried to address everything. But, I think we all know that you want to stay with her. There's nothing wrong with that. To me, it is honorable. You just have to WORK toward it. Feel free to PM me. I'm pulling for you. You have been through the mill. But, you're still alive, and you still have a chance.

If you don't want R, then quit punishing everybody, and giving her the chance to punish everybody. Leave. No matter the financial crisis, you can work it out. Move in with a friend, or your brother, get a lawyer, and fight for yourself, and your children. There is a win there for you, in either choice you make. Go get it.


----------



## carpenoctem

In his wife’s view, Horizon hasn’t had an affair yet because ‘he can’t get anyone / no one would have / want him’. She doesn’t think she even owes him a real apology for her affair, because she is the earning spouse, and she is entitled to extra spice. She does not think the thousands of hours he has invested in the family as a SAHD is worth much. It would not be an exaggeration to say that Horizon is the lowest denominator of her social esteem.

Will a woman who thinks that way, turn if he acts nice and happy now?

Unlikely. And he will become just a caricature of himself.

*With tremendous difficulty, this man has rekindled in himself something that somewhere resembles self-respect.

Let him live with that at least, please.*


----------



## cpacan

@Lifer: I find find it hard to believe that you've actually read the whole thread. The very last paragraph of your long post is the best one I think

Where precisely do you see the ground for reconciliation in this case? How do think it's even possible when the offending spouse doesn't even recognize that there is something to reconcile?


----------



## Nucking Futs

cpacan said:


> @Lifer: I find find it hard to believe that you've actually read the whole thread. The very last paragraph of your long post is the best one I think
> 
> Where precisely do you see the ground for reconciliation in this case? How do think it's even possible when the offending spouse doesn't even recognize that there is something to reconcile?


I think you misunderstood Lifers advice. He's not recommending reconciliation, he's recommending abject surrender. He's recommending that Horizon just accept that his SO is going to screw other people but not him. He's recommending that Horizon give up any self respect and grovel at her feet.

Revolting.


----------



## cpacan

Nucking Futs said:


> I think you misunderstood Lifers advice. He's not recommending reconciliation, he's recommending abject surrender. He's recommending that Horizon just accept that his SO is going to screw other people but not him. He's recommending that Horizon give up any self respect and grovel at her feet.
> 
> Revolting.


My bad. It makes sense, then. But I'm still curious to learn why and how Lifer believes that this could work out. Especially when you see it from Horizons POV.


----------



## Granny7

cpacan said:


> My bad. It makes sense, then. But I'm still curious to learn why and how Lifer believes that this could work out. Especially when you see it from Horizons POV.


cpacan,
I think I can definitely speak from over 25 yrs. of experience in accepting, forgiving my CH's affair. I tried to save our marriage, was devastated by his A as I couldn't have been a better wife to him. After 25 yrs. of marriage, thinking he loved me more than anything, but now looking back on it, he loved himself and his A more. But I plugged on, therapy, everything to save our marriage and he wouldn't answer my questions, didn't really show remorse, just argued and lied about everything. But trying to save our 25 yr. marriage was my goal and thinking that he would change kept me going. So, when I read what Lifer said, I couldn't believe it.

I'm now fast forwarding 25 yrs. ago later and all that I shoved under the rug is now pounding in my brain. It won't stop, what did he actually do with her, did he really love her, how did I fit in his picture during those 3 years of the A and why was their no remorse and begging me to stay afterwards? He didn't contribute and treat me extra special after forgiving him 25 yrs. ago? I am now beating myself up for staying, but I was trying to salvage 25 yrs. of marriage and still had feelings for him. Now, I just feel numb to everything. So in a nutshell, if the other person isn't trying to make it work, why should the betrayed partner do all the work. If the CS isn't in the marriage, let them go. If they wanted the marriage to work, they would be trying also. Horizon has been given good advice from a lot of people, so now he has to look in the mirror and ask himself, "What do I want to do with my life going forward?" Not being in the spot that I am in at the age of 70 and not being happy, but scared to go out on my own and start over and give up everything that I sacrificed to keep our marriage together. Yes, he is definitely trying now, but I can't get the images of them together, the betrayal and lies of 4 yrs, the last being him keeping the secret even though they had broken up, at least I think they had. So for us it might be to late, but for Horizon, he is still young and might be able to start his life over while he is young. I wish him luck in this difficult decision. 
Granny7


----------



## 2asdf2

Granny7 said:


> cpacan,
> ---------snip for brevity----------------
> *So for us it might be too late, *but for Horizon, he is still young and might be able to start his life over while he is young. I wish him luck in this difficult decision.
> Granny7


Granny7:

Two years ago, I had a very similar situation to yours. Same age, same long-ago betrayal, same WS lack of remorse, same lack of information, same gaslighting.

But it is not too late. I separated, as the disrespect I felt from my WW demanded that I maintain self-respect. It has not been easy, but it has been -very much- worth it.

I am in a year-long supportive relationship with a beautiful lady, slowly-but-surely healing, and rebuilding my life, for what's left of it.

Don't let age get in your way. There are people out there (for men, and for women) who are interested in living their life fully. You should also be one of them.

*It is never too late!!!*


----------



## Granny7

2asdf2 said:


> Granny7:
> 
> Two years ago, I had a very similar situation to yours. Same age, same long-ago betrayal, same WS lack of remorse, same lack of information, same gaslighting.
> 
> But it is not too late. I separated, as the disrespect I felt from my WW demanded that I maintain self-respect. It has not been easy, but it has been -very much- worth it.
> 
> I am in a year-long supportive relationship with a beautiful lady, slowly-but-surely healing, and rebuilding my life, for what's left of it.
> 
> Don't let age get in your way. There are people out there (for men, and for women) who are interested in living their life fully. You should also be one of them.
> 
> *It is never too late!!!*


2asdf2,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm still in the process of knowing what to do with my life. I have my whole family, 2 daughter's against me for bringing all this back up 27 yrs. later. The 7 grandchildren have no idea and would be devastated and I am told it would destroy our family unit. Right now with my 2 daughters, I don't see a family unit. My CH had cleaned up his life, has never strayed since 25 yrs. ago. This all came to light about 5 yrs. ago due to stock market crash, lack of libido and he has never in the past 40 yrs. of marriage, the first 12 were not bad. So now he stopped drinking 2 yrs. ago and for the past year has tried hard to make up for what he did. My biggest issue is that I don't feel, even after 3 polygraph test, which the last one was done by an expert, he passed in regards to having sex with her on those 2 weekends, even though they slept in the same bed. He just claims to have forgotten so much, gets upset when I want answers and then when I get them, I don't always believe him. If he could lie to me for 3 yrs. he definitely knows how to do it very well. So their is no trust or respect for him at this point. We had a good night last night, which it's even hard now for me to sleep with him as I have visions of her in my head. I'm still not happy, even this morning. So I don't know what I'm going to do? Thanks for your upbeat message though, it's appreciated.
Granny7


----------



## doubletrouble

Horizon said:


> She has zero respect for me and she is waiting for me to do something about it.


There ya go.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Yep! So what are you waiting for Horizon? 

You know what needs to be done.....


----------



## Horizon

Really had it out with my WS tonight. I tipped her off to our much needed "talk" earlier in the day. Unfortunately by the time family stuff was done and things had settled my WS had consumed 7-8 drinks.

Anyway no arguing, I put it to her that I was done with this "no intimacy" thing, that I needed much more and was making decisions for me now.

She listened intently and threw in her 20 cents worth here and there. We kept calm. And then this kind of sad resignation descended on me.

She repeated something she had said to me maybe 8 or 9 months ago. Back then she said "I couldn't care if I never had sex again". 

This was well before the period of a few weeks where I totally detached and she said "I have never felt better in about 8 years. I feel we can explore intimacy again". And that was followed by a short burst of "parent time'; over 5 months ago - then nothing.

Just like before she said - "I don't care if I never have sex with you or anybody" I burst out laughing until she realised what she had said. She then said - "Channing Tatum could walk in right now and I wouldn't....". 

I said - "Well that's no good to me. I have to make decisions for me. I can't live like this".

She tried to placate me saying "I understand" etc. And then she segued into how, since we have returned from our holiday (6 weeks ago), that she has really seen how I have tried and how much closer we are and how well things are going....WTF!

Calmly I told her that I didn't feel that way at all. She was surprised - "Really? Oh".

I said - "Look, back last October or thereabouts I detached for weeks and you told me how you felt and that we could explore intimacy again because I had taken the pressure off. But nothing happened, nothing".

This is the sad bit. She sort of stumbled on her words and then said to me - "I lied....I lied" WTF!

I said "What do you mean you lied?"

"um....I didn't feel that way....you were so angry. I had....it was hard to deal with your anger. You remember how angry you were and...."

"Angry! I have been angry for years....do you have an idea why...."

And then our son came in and we adjourned.

Later after a shower I said to her - "look I don't really know what that was about...." She said something like "It's good, we're getting there we....(unintelligble)....I'm going to sleep now"

I let it fade anyway; knowing in my heart full well what it was all about. I really felt sorry for her tonight - telling me that something she had pronounced as so significant was all a lie. More lies - but the way she did it, the unconscious default to it.

It's both frightening & breathtaking to witness.


----------



## Pepper123

She has zero interest in this relationship, just wants the comforts that come with it. Very unfortunately for you in this case, you are a normal guy with normal needs. She is truly a selfish piece of work!

Ever considered how Ironic your handle is... it's like you see it (your future) off in the distance on the horizon, but are stuck from walking towards it.


----------



## Horizon

She is only "soft" when she is drinking, gets a bit emotional when she is drinking. She also said something in the middle of our talk about how at different times last year she wanted to put an end to it all because she felt so bad at work some days - all due to my anger presumably. My take is that if I was satisfied I wouldn't be so angry. These days I'm rarely angry and more resigned to what has to happen.

Yeah, great observation Pepper123. Very ironic - there is something on that horizon for me though.


----------



## carmen ohio

_Our only security is our ability to change._ ~John Lilly


_When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves._ ~Victor Frankl


_If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it._ ~Mary Engelbreit


_We would rather be ruined than changed;
We would rather die in our dread
Than climb the cross of the moment
And let our illusions die._
~W.H. Auden


_It's the most unhappy people who most fear change._ ~Mignon McLaughlin


_The only difference between a rut and a grave is their dimensions._ ~Ellen Glasgow


----------



## Horizon

That's it then.

I attempted to finish off what I tried to complete last night and it descended into a heated debate, not really an argument.

Apparently a couple we know (old friends of hers) have not had sex for 10 yrs. I was told - "Pete doesn't have a problem with that? Why should you?"

Probably best to encapsulate my very last conversation about "us" with my WS by just quoting her. There is so much. This is in no particular order and includes statements which were off topic - little more than gas lighting segues IMO. (I was brilliant in keeping on topic by the way)

"You have all this time on your hands. We are your focus, you don't have anything else. The pressure that puts on me is enormous"

"That comment about me being racist like my father you don't know how that hurts me" (a deliberate and obvious joke and not the first time we have made these digs at each other)

"OK, I have said it four times. If you want sex then go out and get it"

""t's all about sex to you"

"We are intimate we just don't have sex"

"Anyone could walk in here right now and I wouldn't have sex. I don't want to have sex"

"I think if I just give him (me) twenty minutes then he wont bug me about it for a while"

"You've got nothing else in your life and you want me to fix it for you"

"Yes, if you had other interests our relationship would be better. No that might not mean sex but it would be better because you will have other things to think about"

"The kids are playing with my emotions just like you. My son cracked that joke on Saturday about you having gone home which was untrue but he had me believing it and wondering why you had done that. They get that from you. (crying) People think it's OK to f**k around with my emotions"

"I didn't lie last night, I didn't lie about what I said last year. I don't know, for God's sake!"

"I am so screwed up inside...."

"No!, I am not going to get help. When would I get time for that. It's alright for you you have the time. We've been struggling ($)"

"I am not going to counselling! when would I have time. The weekends are full"

"I never have time for myself"

"I was dragged along to see that Psychologist. And you just wanted to use it to hammer me" (not true but a bi-product when your SO has had an affair)

"We are in a relationship"

"Do you think you are going to still be having sex when you are old?"

"You always have a shot at my friends, you don't want me to be around them" ( a lie, I have completely changed toward them. I'm more relaxed around them. I like them. Classic Gaslighting)

"Well go then. See yah later"


----------



## Acabado

And you want to remain married to this woman becasue?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Horizon said:


> That's it then.
> 
> I attempted to finish off what I tried to complete last night and it descended into a heated debate, not really an argument.
> 
> Apparently a couple we know (old friends of hers) have not had sex for 10 yrs. I was told - "Pete doesn't have a problem with that? Why should you?"
> 
> Probably best to encapsulate my very last conversation about "us" with my WS by just quoting her. There is so much. This is in no particular order and includes statements which were off topic - little more than gas lighting segues IMO. (I was brilliant in keeping on topic by the way)
> 
> "You have all this time on your hands. We are your focus, you don't have anything else. The pressure that puts on me is enormous"
> 
> "That comment about me being racist like my father you don't know how that hurts me" (a deliberate and obvious joke and not the first time we have made these digs at each other)
> 
> "OK, I have said it four times. If you want sex then go out and get it"
> 
> ""t's all about sex to you"
> 
> "We are intimate we just don't have sex"
> 
> "Anyone could walk in here right now and I wouldn't have sex. I don't want to have sex"
> 
> "I think if I just give him (me) twenty minutes then he wont bug me about it for a while"
> 
> "You've got nothing else in your life and you want me to fix it for you"
> 
> "Yes, if you had other interests our relationship would be better. No that might not mean sex but it would be better because you will have other things to think about"
> 
> "The kids are playing with my emotions just like you. My son cracked that joke on Saturday about you having gone home which was untrue but he had me believing it and wondering why you had done that. They get that from you. (crying) People think it's OK to f**k around with my emotions"
> 
> "I didn't lie last night, I didn't lie about what I said last year. I don't know, for God's sake!"
> 
> "I am so screwed up inside...."
> 
> "No!, I am not going to get help. When would I get time for that. It's alright for you you have the time. We've been struggling ($)"
> 
> "I am not going to counselling! when would I have time. The weekends are full"
> 
> "I never have time for myself"
> 
> "I was dragged along to see that Psychologist. And you just wanted to use it to hammer me" (not true but a bi-product when your SO has had an affair)
> 
> "We are in a relationship"
> 
> "Do you think you are going to still be having sex when you are old?"
> 
> "You always have a shot at my friends, you don't want me to be around them" ( a lie, I have completely changed toward them. I'm more relaxed around them. I like them. Classic Gaslighting)
> 
> "Well go then. See yah later"



And there you have it. She doesn't want to change for the benefit of your marriage, or for you. She won't change. She made the decision months ago.

You're hanging on to what once was and what you want to be.

You know that D is the only option now. When you do file, be fore warned, she may start to back peddle. If you fall for this, you're only prolonging the pain and the inevitable.

She needs professional help. psychologically and with her drinking. She has to be willing to get it. She's not right now.

Maybe you filing D will make her realize this, maybe not. But you do yourself no favors by staying with her any longer.

Are you worried that she will deteriorate if you leave?


----------



## doubletrouble

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Are you worried that she will deteriorate if you leave?


Sounds from what she says, she'll do better. 
I doubt it, but that's what she's saying.
Words have to mean something, especially with the actions she's given.


----------



## Chaparral

Get a job.


----------



## just got it 55

1587 posts of the same old same old

55


----------



## warlock07

When did you delude yourself into thinking that there would be sex?


----------



## Horizon

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> And there you have it. She doesn't want to change for the benefit of your marriage, or for you. She won't change. She made the decision months ago.
> 
> You're hanging on to what once was and what you want to be.
> 
> You know that D is the only option now. When you do file, be fore warned, she may start to back peddle. If you fall for this, you're only prolonging the pain and the inevitable.
> 
> She needs professional help. psychologically and with her drinking. She has to be willing to get it. She's not right now.
> 
> Maybe you filing D will make her realize this, maybe not. But you do yourself no favors by staying with her any longer.
> 
> Are you worried that she will deteriorate if you leave?


Yes, I am pretty worried about that. She is under pressure. Her first USA trip is jam packed. All the stuff not dealt with is sitting there just below the surface. The drink can only keep it at bay for so long. My counselor has told me that alcohs generally have to crash pretty hard before they snap out of it, if they snap out of it. That can mean losing the home on the way, everything shattered, death....


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> When did you delude yourself into thinking that there would be sex?


Old habits / expectations die hard.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Yes, I am pretty worried about that. She is under pressure. Her first USA trip is jam packed. All the stuff not dealt with is sitting there just below the surface. The drink can only keep it at bay for so long. My counselor has told me that alcohs generally have to crash pretty hard before they snap out of it, if they snap out of it. That can mean losing the home on the way, everything shattered, death....


This is why I keep posting stuff like this:


Nucking Futs said:


> Nucking Futs said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's right. You're way too focused on her and not focused enough on yourself. You need to do the 180, not as a way to manipulate her, just as a way to distance yourself from the impending train wreck.
> 
> You can't save her. You can't even help her save herself until she wants to save herself. Nothing you say to her will change her self destructive behavior. At this point it's likely only making matters worse.
> 
> You need to be focusing like a laser on improving _your_ situation. Forget the trip. It's not going to help matters.
> 
> When she crashes, and she will, you're going to be the sole support for your children. You need to be finding your next job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted this on 8/27. Your recent posts make it more evident. She's going to crash and burn, and the stress of starting a new job may accelerate the process. _Your children need you to have income independent from her._ You need it for yourself too, but you and your kids will be in a world of hurt when her income drops to zero if you haven't got a job yet.
> 
> It also wouldn't hurt to have life insurance on her.
Click to expand...


----------



## Horizon

Thanks NF - I'm getting there. We're done.


----------



## lostmyreligion

My wife is a binge drinker. She used alcohol as an excuse for lots of things up to and including her 'indiscretions' and we fought about it lots over the years. She always said she _couldn't_ quit drinking. Just quitting for the 9 months while pregnant with the kids was hell for her.

Last year she decided she could control it. You know - have only a couple at any given time just to take the edge off the urge to get drunk. 

She did pretty good. Didn't see her drunk for almost a full year.

Holidays came 'round this year and she was stressed. She had that 'one too many' and was now bombed on Christmas Eve in front of the kids and was trying to get drunker. Problem for her was I had hidden the booze by that point.

When she figured that out, she went into a rage and clocked me in the nose. Again, in front of the kids (13, 14 & 22).

My oldest daughter and I managed to defuse the situation and get her to bed without any more violence. I slept on the couch.

Christmas Day I walked into the bedroom and she was sitting on the bed sobbing uncontrollably. Went on about how she was becoming her dad and yada yada. I just stood and listened. She finished by looking at me with pleading eyes and saying "I don't know why you haven't left. Why are you still married to me?"

In one of the most coldly lucid moments of my life, I gave her a long stare and said quietly "I don't know. Fix this problem you have with the bottle, starting now, or I won't be." Then turned and walked out.

She cleaned herself up and started by apologizing to each of the kids individually for ruining Christmas. She then went to our doctor who prescribed some anti depressants that seem to be working really well for her. 

Long story short, she hasn't touched a drop since and doesn't seem to be craving it. I firmly believe that it's because she knew I was deadly serious when I said I would leave her.

It's all about consequences for their actions and the conviction to follow through on what *you* need to do to mitigate their effect.


----------



## carmen ohio

lostmyreligion said:


> My wife is a binge drinker. She used alcohol as an excuse for lots of things up to and including her 'indiscretions' and we fought about it lots over the years. She always said she _couldn't_ quit drinking. Just quitting for the 9 months while pregnant with the kids was hell for her.
> 
> Last year she decided she could control it. You know - have only a couple at any given time just to take the edge off the urge to get drunk.
> 
> She did pretty good. Didn't see her drunk for almost a full year.
> 
> Holidays came 'round this year and she was stressed. She had that 'one too many' and was now bombed on Christmas Eve in front of the kids and was trying to get drunker. Problem for her was I had hidden the booze by that point.
> 
> When she figured that out, she went into a rage and clocked me in the nose. Again, in front of the kids (13, 14 & 22).
> 
> My oldest daughter and I managed to defuse the situation and get her to bed without any more violence. I slept on the couch.
> 
> Christmas Day I walked into the bedroom and she was sitting on the bed sobbing uncontrollably. Went on about how she was becoming her dad and yada yada. I just stood and listened. She finished by looking at me with pleading eyes and saying "I don't know why you haven't left. Why are you still married to me?"
> 
> In one of the most coldly lucid moments of my life, I gave her a long stare and said quietly "I don't know. Fix this problem you have with the bottle, starting now, or I won't be." Then turned and walked out.
> 
> She cleaned herself up and started by apologizing to each of the kids individually for ruining Christmas. She then went to our doctor who prescribed some anti depressants that seem to be working really well for her.
> 
> Long story short, she hasn't touched a drop since and doesn't seem to be craving it. I firmly believe that it's because she knew I was deadly serious when I said I would leave her.
> 
> It's all about consequences for their actions and the conviction to follow through on what *you* need to do to mitigate their effect.












lostmyreligion, you win the trophy for "post of the week."


----------



## PieceOfSky

Lostmyreligion,



Were there things you had done that had gotten you prepared -- say, given you the wisdom, conviction, and strength -- that led you to be how you were in the coldly lucid and pivitol moment?


----------



## lostmyreligion

PieceOfSky said:


> Lostmyreligion,
> 
> 
> 
> Were there things you had done that had gotten you prepared -- say, given you the wisdom, conviction, and strength -- that led you to be how you were in the coldly lucid and pivitol moment?


I found TAM/CWI a couple of years back and read voraciously. 

This site has been and remains a clear lens through which I've been able to look at and understand my own and my partner's actions in both this union and past relationships.

More importantly, it's provided the clarity of sight needed to successfully and correctly deal with the hazards as they present themselves moving forward in my marriage.


----------



## Horizon

"I don’t want to not have you in my life – I love you and I will work on ME to get where we need to be. Yes, that includes more intimacy. I tend to retreat and hide behind bravado when I feel insecure."

The olive branch of hope. When i questioned her on this as nothing more than a way to reset she got a little upset. On the other hand I think my counselor was correct when he said that maybe this is all she has got.


----------



## Pepper123

(((horizon)))


----------



## Horizon

Pepper123 said:


> (((horizon)))


It was embarrassing to receive that e-mail from her.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Horizon said:


> "I don’t want to not have you in my life – I love you and I will work on ME to get where we need to be. Yes, that includes more intimacy. I tend to retreat and hide behind bravado when I feel insecure."
> 
> The olive branch of hope. When i questioned her on this as nothing more than a way to reset she got a little upset. On the other hand I think my counselor was correct when he said that maybe this is all she has got.


Don't fall for this again! THis is exactly what your W has been doing forever now and you fall for it every time.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> "I don’t want to not have you in my life – I love you and I will work on ME to get where we need to be. Yes, that includes more intimacy. I tend to retreat and hide behind bravado when I feel insecure."
> 
> The olive branch of hope. When i questioned her on this as nothing more than a way to reset she got a little upset. On the other hand I think my counselor was correct when he said that maybe this is all she has got.


Pay attention to what she does, not what she says. Don't believe a word of this until you see her scheduling a counselor or going to AA meetings. Until then it's just words.


----------



## WyshIknew

And yet she had no problem dropping her knickers for OM.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

WyshIknew said:


> And yet she had no problem dropping her knickers for OM.


I agree. It's not that she doesn't want to have sex at all. She just doesn't want to have sex with you(right now any way). How much longer are you going to be willing to wait?...

The reason she cheated on you is the same reason she still won't have sex with you.

She needs professional help. All this back and forth is only costing you more time that could have been better spent on improving yourself(or anything else).

Maybe she'll come around, but stop waiting for it to happen.


----------



## turnera

I thought you said you were done.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> I thought you said you were done.


I think she saw him pulling away and said just enough to reel him back in.


----------



## Horizon

She hit the reset button before the USA trip tomorrow - clean slate, deal with it later mentality. All in her head. 

I am done. When the penny finally drops for her and if I need to, I'll simply remind her that she has not kept a single promise since DDay and has lied again as well. The game playing is over, I have been disrespected for the last time - 12 months is enough of this sh!t for me.

I made a promise to myself about 2014 and I'm sticking with it.


----------



## turnera

Great! 

So you are seeing a lawyer while she's gone to set up her paying you for after you separate, right?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Let me make this really simple for you.

She loves to have sex. She wants to be intimate.

But she can only do so with someone she has "feelings" for.

That's how her brain is "wired". So guess what? 

She doesn't have ANY feelings for you right now.

She doesn't love you, she's still infatuated with the OM even if he's out of the picture.

She's still in a fog and would screw him if she could (or if she isn't still already).

My ex pulled the same crap. Don't be a fool.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Horizon said:


> She hit the reset button before the USA trip tomorrow - clean slate, deal with it later mentality. All in her head.
> 
> I am done. When the penny finally drops for her and if I need to, I'll simply remind her that she has not kept a single promise since DDay and has lied again as well. The game playing is over, I have been disrespected for the last time - 12 months is enough of this sh!t for me.
> 
> I made a promise to myself about 2014 and I'm sticking with it.


Any chance of the OM meeting her in the states, or during(no pun intended) a long layover?

She ain't over him by a long shot and many affair partners will foot the bill of a plane ticket just to bump uglies with with their "one true love".


----------



## Horizon

This the trouble for any BS in my situation - you're left guessing and all the while they are stringing you along. They would have you believe one thing or a set of things but the truth is elsewhere.

I can only look at the actions (or more precisely, inaction) for my answers. 

As you would know I have even got to the point where I thought that for whatever reason - drink, childhood abuse etc. - that she did not know or see the end result of her statements and inaction. The affect it was having on me. 

If I give her the benefit of the doubt I ask - why? Why can't she see it? But it is all pointless because the end result is the same - inaction. So I don't bother, it's just who she is. Maybe she doesn't see who she is but I do.

The OM? Who knows - I have spent some time wondering about where he sits in her mind. I'm confident he is out of the picture but I naturally have that modicum of doubt. And if not him who else?

So I'm back to where I started. Nothing has changed. It is remarkable that she thinks I am just going to go along with this. Is she so sure I'll hang in there because I always have? Or worse that she just doesn't look that far ahead. Which carries more weight for me because we have never talked about the future - where we'd like to live or what we'd like to be doing. Zip.

Lawyer Monday.


----------



## tom67

Lawyer Monday, good the beginning of the rest of your life.
Update us on Tuesday.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> This the trouble for any BS in my situation - you're left guessing and all the while they are stringing you along. They would have you believe one thing or a set of things but the truth is elsewhere.
> 
> I can only look at the actions (or more precisely, inaction) for my answers.
> 
> As you would know I have even got to the point where I thought that for whatever reason - drink, childhood abuse etc. - that she did not know or see the end result of her statements and inaction. The affect it was having on me.
> 
> If I give her the benefit of the doubt I ask - why? Why can't she see it? But it is all pointless because the end result is the same - inaction. So I don't bother, it's just who she is. Maybe she doesn't see who she is but I do.
> 
> The OM? Who knows - I have spent some time wondering about where he sits in her mind. I'm confident he is out of the picture but I naturally have that modicum of doubt. And if not him who else?
> 
> So I'm back to where I started. Nothing has changed. It is remarkable that she thinks I am just going to go along with this. Is she so sure I'll hang in there because I always have? Or worse that she just doesn't look that far ahead. Which carries more weight for me because we have never talked about the future - where we'd like to live or what we'd like to be doing. Zip.
> 
> Lawyer Monday.


:yay::toast::smthumbup::smnotworthy::bounce::woohoo:


----------



## turnera

Thank God.

And Horizon, you just never know. If you FINALLY show strength and manhood and leave her behind, she might - MIGHT - finally wake up and see her wrongdoings. But it would never have happened until you take this step.


----------



## SteveK

MattMatt said:


> Oh. Oh, no! Damn.
> 
> So perhaps if she has sex with husband, she is cheating on the OM?:scratchhead:
> 
> Horizon, this might not be over! You need to protect yourself and your children.


THIS POST THOUGH ABOUT A YEAR OLD MADE ME LAUGH. You can check out my story under Wife of 28 years left me for a tour guide.
Anyhow, the other day we were talking and my wife who is in hiding with her affair, even though she goes to work and comes to the house when I am not here said to me:

Hes not that type of guy, I don't believe he chased all those other married women, hes different from those type of guys....then she continues...IMAGINE THE HELL HE WAS LIVING IN, WE WERE IN THIS RELATIONSHIP AND HE KNEW THAT I WAS SLEEPING IN YOUR BED AND MAKING LOVE TO YOU, WHILE I WAS TELLING HIM I LOVE HIM AND MISS HIM AND WANT TO BE WITH HIM...AND THIS WAS EVEN BEFORE WE FINALLY GOT INTIMATE!!! 

Can you believe she said this. We are still married we are not even legally separated!!!!!! So I asked when they got intimate and she said probably after she ran away and I said BS it was the Monday you met him in that no-tell-motel for four hours and she says no I don't remember that, what a load of junk!! At the least it was the evening of the day she decided to leave me. She even goes as far to admit that hes not satisfying her like I did...Come on, someone told me that even if she is satisfied by you but feels no love its not as powerful for a woman as bad sex with someone she deeply loves...I am so nauseous I cant stand this!!!


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> . . . Lawyer Monday.


How about Al-Anon Tuesday?


----------



## Chaparral

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNN42bJUkw. Watch this video horizon to the end.


----------



## Horizon

(QUOTE) Can you believe she said this. We are still married we are not even legally separated!!!!!! So I asked when they got intimate and she said probably after she ran away and I said BS it was the Monday you met him in that no-tell-motel for four hours and she says no I don't remember that, what a load of junk!! At the least it was the evening of the day she decided to leave me. She even goes as far to admit that hes not satisfying her like I did...Come on, someone told me that even if she is satisfied by you but feels no love its not as powerful for a woman as bad sex with someone she deeply loves...I am so nauseous I cant stand this!!!(/QUOTE)

Yes I can. It makes sense to me. She has described the sex as boring but maybe what you say is the difference - she felt that emotional connection with a dud f**k. Even on night 2 of our 'talk', when it got a little heated and went down that path for a bit, she still pulled out the "It was fantasy", "I didn't enjoy it". Maybe what you say is closer to the truth because she also pulled out the "He made me feel this and that...." But who cares now huh? Following your logic that just shifts me further away from the totem pole that I'm not on anyway - we don't even get it on. I don't need this charade so it's all BS, past tense.


----------



## Horizon

Chaparral said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNN42bJUkw. Watch this video horizon to the end.


Very interesting, men are redundant.

About 25 years ago I was at a Pub in Manly one Saturday afternoon, my 'local' as we say; there was an older bloke there propping up the bar (he was about my age now). Normally I only spotted him on Friday and Saturday nights. He was always there - a mechanic and a man of few words.

This particular arvo (afternoon) I tried to get a word out of him but it was near impossible. Finally before i left I asked him if he had a wife. He ignored me. Because I was a little pi**ed at him I goaded him gently by asking if he had a girlfriend. 

With that he put his beer down, stood up, turned to me and said "If a woman didn't have a c**t she wouldn't have a friend in the world". Wow! I was too into fems to buy that sh!t.

I later discovered via a mate of mine that this bloke shared an apartment with two other men. They were all roughly the same age and all divorced. They were ageing tradesmen who had no time for women. The only time a women went near their joint was when they all chipped in for a hooker.

Years later some friends of mine, where I grew up, had also been divorced. These two men also shared an apartment. The first time I popped over for a drink they showed me their Decree Nisi documents - both neatly framed and proudly displayed on the hallway wall as you entered their digs.

As Kurt Vonnegut would say "So it goes".


----------



## davecarter

Horizon said:


> Very interesting, men are redundant.
> 
> About 25 years ago I was at a Pub in Manly one Saturday afternoon, my 'local' as we say; there was an older bloke there propping up the bar (he was about my age now). Normally I only spotted him on Friday and Saturday nights. He was always there - a mechanic and a man of few words.
> 
> This particular arvo (afternoon) I tried to get a word out of him but it was near impossible. Finally before i left I asked him if he had a wife. He ignored me. Because I was a little pi**ed at him I goaded him gently by asking if he had a girlfriend.
> 
> With that he put his beer down, stood up, turned to me and said "If a woman didn't have a c**t she wouldn't have a friend in the world". Wow! I was too into fems to buy that sh!t.
> 
> I later discovered via a mate of mine that this bloke shared an apartment with two other men. They were all roughly the same age and all divorced. They were ageing tradesmen who had no time for women. The only time a women went near their joint was when they all chipped in for a hooker.
> 
> Years later some friends of mine, where I grew up, had also been divorced. These two men also shared an apartment. The first time I popped over for a drink they showed me their Decree Nisi documents - both neatly framed and proudly displayed on the hallway wall as you entered their digs.
> 
> As Kurt Vonnegut would say "So it goes".


That's just jaded men. Bit weak, to be honest.

You give up on women, you've given up on life, IMO.


----------



## Chaparral

Horizon said:


> Very interesting, men are redundant.
> 
> About 25 years ago I was at a Pub in Manly one Saturday afternoon, my 'local' as we say; there was an older bloke there propping up the bar (he was about my age now). Normally I only spotted him on Friday and Saturday nights. He was always there - a mechanic and a man of few words.
> 
> This particular arvo (afternoon) I tried to get a word out of him but it was near impossible. Finally before i left I asked him if he had a wife. He ignored me. Because I was a little pi**ed at him I goaded him gently by asking if he had a girlfriend.
> 
> With that he put his beer down, stood up, turned to me and said "If a woman didn't have a c**t she wouldn't have a friend in the world". Wow! I was too into fems to buy that sh!t.
> 
> I later discovered via a mate of mine that this bloke shared an apartment with two other men. They were all roughly the same age and all divorced. They were ageing tradesmen who had no time for women. The only time a women went near their joint was when they all chipped in for a hooker.
> 
> Years later some friends of mine, where I grew up, had also been divorced. These two men also shared an apartment. The first time I popped over for a drink they showed me their Decree Nisi documents - both neatly framed and proudly displayed on the hallway wall as you entered their digs.
> 
> As Kurt Vonnegut would say "So it goes".


But did you notice that women say they want one thing, lose attraction and go for the alpha, bad boy type for sex?


----------



## Horizon

davecarter said:


> That's just jaded men. Bit weak, to be honest.
> 
> You give up on women, you've given up on life, IMO.


The two fellas from where I grew up later remarried and still are. The older blokes were finished; they'd done their dough.

That's not me though.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Horizon said:


> Yes I can. It makes sense to me. She has described the sex as boring but maybe what you say is the difference - she felt that emotional connection with a dud f**k. Even on night 2 of our 'talk', when it got a little heated and went down that path for a bit, she still pulled out the "It was fantasy", "I didn't enjoy it". Maybe what you say is closer to the truth because she also pulled out the "He made me feel this and that...." But who cares now huh? Following your logic that just shifts me further away from the totem pole that I'm not on anyway - we don't even get it on. I don't need this charade so it's all BS, past tense.


From a "mechanical" perspective it could of been regular vanilla sex. This is just trickle truth from her though. She may not have even finished but for her it was much better than the sex she was having with you even if you get her off every time. Why? Because she is "in love" with the OM. For her it was hot and heavy, passionate, illicit, essentially far more gratifying. But that's all part of the delusion. The same delusion that makes her think this POSOM is a wonderful man and not the home wrecking piece of garbage whose just using her that he really is. 

The bottom line is your spouse has without a doubt checked out completely. So you can either continue to pine for a woman who disrespected you in the worst possible way (and CONTINUES too) or you can wake up and realize you deserve better than this trash you call your wife. No one said its easy to walk away. Its real hard to give up something your comfortable with but in the long run you will be FAR better off getting this poison out of your system. 

Good luck.


----------



## turnera

It would behoove all men to read at least a couple of books about how women are attracted sexually, just so they know what they're dealing with. It's not physical, it's not pure emotional, there's a bit of needing it to be take my breath away. Probably in our genes since caveman days.


----------



## SteveK

turnera said:


> It would behoove all men to read at least a couple of books about how women are attracted sexually, just so they know what they're dealing with. It's not physical, it's not pure emotional, there's a bit of needing it to be take my breath away. Probably in our genes since caveman days.


My WAW damn near admitted I had become the Boy toy. She loved my body and my skills, she said I was the better lover, I was more endowed and was the only man that could please her orally. She even at one point said how come some men don't like to do that!! She does give a great BJ and likes to be reciprocated..I cant believe I have not been with her in 35 days!! I still remember the last time we were intimate a few days before she left. She is great at reverse Bull riding...I just dont see her being as wild with the OM. Thing is a thought if a woman especially your wife is really enjoying her intimate life with you, there is a strong emotional bond as well. I believe that why she had never left me before, until he put this fear in her that I would hurt her or something stupid like that.
I will let you know what happens if she moves back for an in-house separation or even if not and he leaves to go back to his country. I know to be careful so she can not accuse me of forced Sex.


----------



## happyman64

SteveK said:


> My WAW damn near admitted I had become the Boy toy. She loved my body and my skills, she said I was the better lover, I was more endowed and was the only man that could please her orally. She even at one point said how come some men don't like to do that!! She does give a great BJ and likes to be reciprocated..I cant believe I have not been with her in 35 days!! I still remember the last time we were intimate a few days before she left. She is great at reverse Bull riding...I just dont see her being as wild with the OM. Thing is a thought if a woman especially your wife is really enjoying her intimate life with you, there is a strong emotional bond as well. I believe that why she had never left me before, until he put this fear in her that I would hurt her or something stupid like that.
> I will let you know what happens if she moves back for an in-house separation or even if not and he leaves to go back to his country. I know to be careful so she can not accuse me of forced Sex.


Inhouse separation?

File under abandonment.

keep her out of the house on her own dime.

Maybe then she will miss you Steve. And not just your support.

Show her consequences......


----------



## turnera

Steve, what you're missing is that women have to respect their man. It's biological. By saying you'll keep her at any cost, you just lost her. Women want a man they have to earn. (the same for men) If you're that easy, you're to be walked on.

And guess what she's doing?


----------



## SteveK

turnera said:


> Steve, what you're missing is that women have to respect their man. It's biological. By saying you'll keep her at any cost, you just lost her. Women want a man they have to earn. (the same for men) If you're that easy, you're to be walked on.
> 
> And guess what she's doing?


Thats been my point that my IC sees our MC sees, that i was afraid of her that i always walked on eggshells even though she asked me not to. You see they say that because she controlled me I lashed out in emotionally abusive ways..it was almost like a panic attack. But the way she explains it to people they are feeding her that i am a demon child. now I know she is giving her perspective, but she refuses to see her part in any of it. its all my fault. meanwhile when I threatened to leave years ago she begged me to stay and I never had an OW. I had plenty of opportunity but I never even thought of crossing the line. The second I got uncomfortable I brought up my wife.
HER POSOM always targeted married woman, even though she refuses to believe it.

I just don't want to go so cold that I loose her forever. she means to much to me.

Now i can tell you my IC has said if I take her back I am an idiot because she may do this again, and then I would need to find a new therapist! As long as he is unattached he is a danger to me and my marriage. That is what scares me, that she still will come back, but have this plan in her head of leaving after my son graduates High School. I think she always planned this, BUT this POSOM came along kind of early in her scheme.

Gad I am a fool for love.


----------



## Horizon

Chaparral said:


> But did you notice that women say they want one thing, lose attraction and go for the alpha, bad boy type for sex?


Yes - if you look at my WS's actions as NF says it follows type.

Overall, it is a fascinating subject to my mind even though it has caused such havoc for me. I accept that I have not been that "alpha, bad boy' type. 

There are many LTR's that have 'dried' up but the couple remain loyal - don't cheat; but if it is hard wired in the possibility remains for either of them.

My WS's first BF was in jail for a while (10 yrs before I knew her). There's a bad boy. She cheated on her ex husband with an Investment Banker (so she says). There's an Alpha. She cheated on me with a younger fitter senior management POS....she fits the pattern.


----------



## happyman64

You are a fool for abuse. Not love.

You just happen to love the abuser.

In case you haven't figured it out yet she is still abusing you.

And until you get it through your head and truly detach from her, there is no chance for your marriage.

Think about it.

The concept is hard to understand.

But you need to empower yourself. To show that you are still your own man and not codependent. Or dependent on her for love.

You need to love yourself.

You need to respect yourself.

Show your kids what a man that has values, self esteem and loves/respects himself.

Because until she sees that man she will not think twice that any of her past decisions have been wrong or hurtful.

HM


----------



## Horizon

BetrayedDad said:


> From a "mechanical" perspective it could of been regular vanilla sex. This is just trickle truth from her though. She may not have even finished but for her it was much better than the sex she was having with you even if you get her off every time. Why? Because she is "in love" with the OM. For her it was hot and heavy, passionate, illicit, essentially far more gratifying. But that's all part of the delusion. The same delusion that makes her think this POSOM is a wonderful man and not the home wrecking piece of garbage whose just using her that he really is.
> 
> The bottom line is your spouse has without a doubt checked out completely. So you can either continue to pine for a woman who disrespected you in the worst possible way (and CONTINUES too) or you can wake up and realize you deserve better than this trash you call your wife. No one said its easy to walk away. Its real hard to give up something your comfortable with but in the long run you will be FAR better off getting this poison out of your system.


This is central to the betrayal. It plays out for me as complete lack of self awareness / intellect - but in fact it is jammed up with lies. The inability to accept the obvious holes in the argument & denials demonstrates she is an accomplished liar. She knows the truth but cannot admit it. The idea that she doesn't have that insight into her true motives disturbs me. The continued argument that it was all "fantasy" may be recognition that she fully understood - after the fact. In the end you are always left with doubt and questions. Really, I'm guessing - I just don't know anything for sure other than she ripped me off big time.


----------



## turnera

SteveK said:


> Gad I am a fool for love.


No, just a beta male.

Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP yet? They are your only salvation at this point.


----------



## SteveK

turnera said:


> No, just a beta male.
> 
> Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP yet? They are your only salvation at this point.


Whats the difference between Alpha and Beta males?

She told me they have not been completely intimate, he has a problem in his manhood. She said they did get intimate her last day in Israel, and I am thinking Oral from him. It hurts a lot to know another man is feeding on her. She says its not that much he has low-T.

Anyhow, I am so confused. She cried to me for two hours over coffee tonight.

She says she is still in love wih me but the hurt I caused her with abuse in the past pushed her away. thing is this guy is a tool and I am a healed and new man and have been for a long time.

She claims she is afraid to hurt him, because he is so sweet.

Meanwhile, He is giving her crap about her wanting to reconcile because he has spent so much on her the last month..WTF, what have I spent on her, two houses, two sons, 34 years of my life. 2 years of hell with this EA. This guy is such a Deeckhead!


----------



## bandit.45

This is not the thread to be asking advice about how to handle infidelity Steve. Have your thread moved to CWI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> This is central to the betrayal. It plays out for me as complete lack of self awareness / intellect - but in fact it is jammed up with lies. The inability to accept the obvious holes in the argument & denials demonstrates she is an accomplished liar. She knows the truth but cannot admit it. The idea that she doesn't have that insight into her true motives disturbs me.The continued argument that it was all "fantasy" may be recognition that she fully understood - after the fact. In the end you are always left with doubt and questions. Really, I'm guessing - I just don't know anything for sure other than she ripped me off big time.


Horizon,

Of course your WP lacks self-awareness and can't think straight, has to lie to you (and probably herself, too) and doesn't understand herself. She's a raging alcoholic. But, I fear the one holding on to a "fantasy" is you -- otherwise, you would be much further along in your detachment and self-development.

I'm glad you have decided to speak to an attorney. This is an important step. But, for the love of Pete, please get help for yourself and your kids to deal with her drinking.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> This is not the thread to be asking advice about how to handle infidelity Steve. Have your thread moved to CWI.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh, whoa! I'm reading this in CWI... Was the thread recently moved?


----------



## turnera

SteveK said:


> Whats the difference between Alpha and Beta males?
> 
> She told me they have not been completely intimate, he has a problem in his manhood. She said they did get intimate her last day in Israel, and I am thinking Oral from him. It hurts a lot to know another man is feeding on her.


You wanna know the difference? Here's the difference:

An alpha male, KNOWING another man was 'feeding' on his wife, would walk away and say 'unless you can PROVE to me a good reason to take you back, we are done. I deserve better.'

A beta male says 'oh honey, you must have been stressed, let's talk about this so we can figure out together why you need more than me.'

Which one do you think YOU are?


----------



## turnera

SteveK said:


> Whats the difference between Alpha and Beta males?
> 
> *She cried to me for two hours* over coffee tonight.
> 
> She says she is still in love wih me but the hurt I caused her with abuse in the past pushed her away. thing is this guy is a tool and I am a healed and new man and have been for a long time.
> 
> She claims *she is afraid to hurt him*, because he is so sweet.


And you still can't tell the difference? Your wife cries TO YOU about how she can't hurt 'her man' and you ALLOW IT?

Son, THAT is a beta male.


----------



## SteveK

bandit.45 said:


> This is not the thread to be asking advice about how to handle infidelity Steve. Have your thread moved to CWI.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is CWI thread, 

I have asked several times to have My personal thread on my marriage moved, but it has not been.


----------



## Nucking Futs

SteveK said:


> This is CWI thread,
> 
> I have asked several times to have My personal thread on my marriage moved, but it has not been.


Correction: This is _Horizons_ CWI thread. Talk about your problems in his thread is a thread jack.


----------



## bandit.45

SteveK said:


> This is CWI thread,
> 
> I have asked several times to have My personal thread on my marriage moved, but it has not been.


Keep PMing the mods. They must be off duty for the weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VFW

I think that you have given this relationship its due diligence and it is time to let this story kind of end. I don't think she has it in her to do anymore than she has so far. You two have been existing that is about it for quite awhile. Time to take care of the legal and financial issues, then you can make living arrangements and move on with life. I caution you to not hurry into another relationship. You will still need a little time to heal from all this. There is no need of projecting STBX's issues onto someone else. It will all come in due time my friend. It is a brave new world out there.


----------



## FOH

I understand it has been a year but children and wanting to believe that a relationship can be save takes time. I am not one to judge anyone because I did the exact same thing. Hang in there I know it is rough and things are hard to deal with, but you will come to the point when you will have to decide how or when you want to end this. Some of us are here to listen and some to be that reality check get on with your life. I think you will decide when you are ready. But if you ever need to talk while going through this post to the infidelity chat. We will always listen.


----------



## Horizon

Well....I have to prove to the enth degree "separation under the same roof". It can be done legally but I have to jump through mucho hoops.


----------



## SteveK

Nucking Futs said:


> Correction: This is _Horizons_ CWI thread. Talk about your problems in his thread is a thread jack.


Actually something is f'ed up, i asked a simple question and then thought I was on my thread, there was no intention to thread jack..

My stuff can be deleted or moved to my thread.


----------



## BashfulB

SteveK said:


> Actually something is f'ed up, i asked a simple question and then thought I was on my thread, there was no intention to thread jack..
> 
> My stuff can be deleted or moved to my thread.


Just keep after the mods Steve. They will respond eventually.


----------



## Horizon

And now I find that this Piece of Excrement has attempted contact again - after all the warnings....I can't believe it. I'm now being challenged like never before....PHEW!!!! It's good that she's away.


----------



## carpenoctem

Renewed contact with this OM, or extramarital liaisons with some other man/men was / is a given, Horizon.

You should have been surprised if that did not happen. As would have been many who post in your thread.

Wish you fortitude.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> And now I find that this Piece of Excrement has attempted contact again - after all the warnings....I can't believe it. I'm now being challenged like never before....PHEW!!!! It's good that she's away.


Any man would be furious about the POSOM attempting to contact his woman again. You should not be. She hasn't been your woman in a long time. She hasn't even pretended to be your woman.

Ignore it. She's not your problem any more.


----------



## Horizon

No, it is beside the point, I explicitly told this f**khead to disappear and was assured by his Wife that he was well over my FWS. He obviously has an itch that can't be scratched - I can help him with that. This is not about my FWS and you 'men' should know that.


----------



## vi_bride04

Tell his wife if he is still married.


----------



## warlock07

How do you know?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> No, it is beside the point, I explicitly told this f**khead to disappear and was assured by his Wife that he was well over my FWS. He obviously has an itch that can't be scratched - I can help him with that. This is not about my FWS and you 'men' should know that.


I can see where you're coming from. You warned another man off and he's disregarding your warning. That's all the proof you need that he has no respect for you. I wonder where he got that? Oh, yeah, your wife. She has no respect for you either, but you keep *****ing out on doing anything about her lack of respect. Growing a set about him when you've essentially been acting like a eunuch to your wife all this time is sure going to impress the cops that are hauling you off to jail.

Get your head out of your ass. This guy is not your problem, your wife is your problem and until you take firm action there nothing else matters.


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> I can see where you're coming from. You warned another man off and he's disregarding your warning. That's all the proof you need that he has no respect for you. I wonder where he got that? Oh, yeah, your wife. She has no respect for you either, but you keep *****ing out on doing anything about her lack of respect. Growing a set about him when you've essentially been acting like a eunuch to your wife all this time is sure going to impress the cops that are hauling you off to jail.
> 
> Get your head out of your ass. This guy is not your problem, your wife is your problem and until you take firm action there nothing else matters.


Holy cow! Print this out and keep it in your wallet, Horizon. Read it at least twice a day. And then FOLLOW it!


----------



## carmen ohio

Nucking Futs said:


> I can see where you're coming from. You warned another man off and he's disregarding your warning. That's all the proof you need that he has no respect for you. I wonder where he got that? Oh, yeah, your wife. She has no respect for you either, but you keep *****ing out on doing anything about her lack of respect. Growing a set about him when you've essentially been acting like a eunuch to your wife all this time is sure going to impress the cops that are hauling you off to jail.
> 
> Get your head out of your ass. This guy is not your problem, your wife is your problem and until you take firm action there nothing else matters.


:iagree:with everything NF just said.

Frankly, Horizon, the OM would be doing you a favor if he took her off your hands. At least that would force you to face up to your demons and get your life back on track. I sometimes think that nothing short of her leaving you (which, I am certain, she will one day) can save you.

Please, prove us all wrong.


----------



## tom67

carmen ohio said:


> :iagree:with everything NF just said.
> 
> Frankly, Horizon, the OM would be doing you a favor if he took her off your hands. At least that would force you to face up to your demons and get your life back on track. I sometimes think that nothing short of her leaving you (which, I am certain, she will one day) can save you.
> 
> Please, prove us all wrong.


She may leave everyone for good if she doesn't get into a rehab center soon.


----------



## Horizon

Do what? The lawyer basically told me I was f**ked three ways. All the hoops, all the changes to finances, the Tax Dept, Family assistance of any kind (most people in OZ receive some type of Gov assist - kids rebates etc otherwise known as middle class welfare) evidence, evidence, evidence and just to be separate under the same roof. Really solves sh!t. I can't be 100% sure of course but my gut tells me she has nothing to do with that POS. Yeah, yeah if not him then who next....f**K the lot of them! I'm stuck - I don't have the $ and I have 2 children.


----------



## Decorum

tom67 said:


> She may leave everyone for good if she doesn't get into a rehab center soon.


Yeah that's the elephant in the room, unless she gets dried out permanently, there is no hope, and only she can choose to get help.

ETA, Yeah without employment you are stuck.


----------



## turnera

So, really, why ARE you not working?


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> So, really, why ARE you not working?


Jayus! I am working but perm part time hours. I can't jag a FT job, they wont even look at me. You have no idea how many FT jobs I have applied for. If I want to drive FT I have to start early. Who is going to get them set up and ready for school? My FWS, sure, when she's in OZ. Her mother when she's not? driving over here staying a week 3 times a year....I will sort this but it will not happen tomorrow. Meanwhile a-holes thrive.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Horizon said:


> Jayus! I am working but perm part time hours. I can't jag a FT job, they wont even look at me. You have no idea how many FT jobs I have applied for. If I want to drive FT I have to start early. Who is going to get them set up and ready for school? My FWS, sure, when she's in OZ. Her mother when she's not? driving over here staying a week 3 times a year....I will sort this but it will not happen tomorrow. Meanwhile a-holes thrive.


You just answered your own question and solved your own problem. Take an early driving job and let your WW know that she's going to be responsible for getting them to school regardless of travel, let her make the arrangements.


----------



## turnera

Jeez, just asking! You're so miserable as things are, yet you aren't changing anything. Do you have linkedin where you are? Other places to network? Get creative.


----------



## Horizon

warlock07 said:


> How do you know?


I'm not stupid, that's how i know - can't say anything more at this point.


----------



## turnera

The 'something' is you leaving, Horizon.


----------



## Horizon

Hi everyone,

thought I'd update you. We are separate under the same roof.

There have been a couple of talks recently - instigated by myself and then, unusually, the final talk instigated by her.

I laid it out for the very last time and just reminded her what I was doing. I didn't bother going down the path of her drinking or disengagement (inability to do any heavy lifting etc.) or whatever - that's over with. Her problem.

The main thing was to avoid conflict and just communicate. Which we did - pretty much. No anger. 

Some days later she wanted to talk. OK then I thought - I'm all ears.

The upshot was that she had read a letter in a newspaper to a counselor which she related to. The writer said that her husband was very abusive when they fought and had said things which left her numb and damaged. Later he would want to have sex and she felt zero physically and mentally. Her question was "what can I do to be more open with my husband when we fight?"

This apparently is my WS's issue, or a big part of it. Though I must say; It's been a hell of a long time since I have wanted make up sex or any sex. I don't go there - haven't for more than 7 months. So she feels nothing for me because of my abuse - I get that already. And the bit i didn't bother asking her - the obvious - "What are you doing to mend that?" No need to ask the obvious now though. I don't care about the answer - I know the answer.

The other aspect is my neediness / co-dependency. Has driven her nuts for years.

To be honest this has come out in my ongoing counseling - I can't deny that. I had no idea what I was doing and what damage it was doing to my relationships. I thought I knew so much; I had done so much work on me over the years but nothing had sunk in. It was all just reading. The penny never dropped - until now.

So I have had to cop a big lesson. It's been worth it, tough as it is.

Anyway it's all after the fact now. I'm not in love with the woman - she just happens to be the mother of my children.


----------



## Decorum

Thanks for the update Horizon.

I always look at your idle thread in my subscription list and wonder how you are doing.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Wishing you the best, Horizon. I haven't spoken up much here on your thread, but I have been following along and trying to learn.



It sounds like you are ratcheting in some real progress, reaching real clarity on some fundamentally important things, and are being careful to work on yourself. I admire that. 



It is only a matter of time before you create the good life you deserve.


----------



## turnera

So you're divorcing?


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> So you're divorcing?


Can you interpret his last post?


----------



## turnera

Well, I got that she doesn't love/trust him, he doesn't love her, he's working on his codependency, she blames him for everything. The only question left is, is he strong enough to end this clusterfluck of a relationship?


----------



## Horizon

I'm in my part of the house - things are civil. I'm building my finances. Got rid of the expensive car and the ridiculous repayments - got a second hand Aussie muscle car. Doing whatever extra work I can, not worrying about her sh*t - taking care of mine. Divorce? We're not married; but no, it's not legal as such, not yet.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

So, you're both free to date someone else?


----------



## Horizon

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> So, you're both free to date someone else?


Yes, but for me it's the last thing on my mind at the moment - even after the total lack of intimacy for the last 7 or so months.

Whatever she does is her business however she knows not to bring anyone into this house.


----------



## Horizon

turnera said:


> Well, I got that she doesn't love/trust him, he doesn't love her, he's working on his codependency, she blames him for everything. The only question left is, is he strong enough to end this clusterfluck of a relationship?


Fair enough question T - I'm on my way. There are no fakey reconciliation talks or innuendos etc; none of that jive. I'm over that BS. But for the time being we are under the same roof. I'm just focusing on getting myself set up and raising my children.


----------



## turnera

Horizon, aside from getting rid of the debt - and I commend you on that - there are only two ways to 'set yourself up' to move on without her. Either get a real job or hire a lawyer to get her to pay you child support.

You are doing neither.

The problem is, I think you are staying 'for the kids' but in reality you can't bare to leave her and will stay under any circumstances to be near her. But after 10-15 years of that, you will have no self esteem left after watching her date other men and treat you like her lackey, that you'll then be unable to leave at all.

That's a sad legacy to leave your kids.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> Horizon, aside from getting rid of the debt - and I commend you on that - there are only two ways to 'set yourself up' to move on without her. Either get a real job or hire a lawyer to get her to pay you child support.
> 
> You are doing neither.
> 
> The problem is, I think you are staying 'for the kids' but in reality you can't bare to leave her and will stay under any circumstances to be near her. But after 10-15 years of that, you will have no self esteem left after watching her date other men and treat you like her lackey, that you'll then be unable to leave at all.
> 
> That's a sad legacy to leave your kids.


I agree. And by the way, should Horizon be sent over to read SteveK's thread? Perhaps they can cure each other?


----------



## Pepper123

It took me years to leave my circumstances. I judge no one. Glad to see you are building some resolve, Horizon... no one can make you move faster except you.


----------



## Horizon

And what are you doing sid, sitting back sucking down c**ktails? This is serious sh*t and considering the turn of events I'm in a much better place. T has a point but I have to do it my way. I haven't lost sight of the big picture.

I have read some of this SteveK's blokes thread - not my situation. I cleaned up the piece of excrement who my WS got involved with, scared the tripe out of him and he still had a another sneaky shot 9 months later - so I f**ked him up again.

I'm doing what works for me and my family.


----------



## carpenoctem

At least / above all, you got off the hamster wheel, Horizon.

Best of luck in moving ahead.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Horizon said:


> I cleaned up the piece of excrement who my WS got involved with, scared the tripe out of him and he still had a another sneaky shot 9 months later - so I f**ked him up again.
> 
> I'm doing what works for me and my family.


Horizon banged OM's mom. You are the man, bro.


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## Horizon

WhiteRaven - ummm.... I'm a little slow on the uptake as in that one's gone right over the top. Has something in my thread lead you to believe that?


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## turnera

Horizon said:


> I'm doing what works for me and my family.


So you ARE staying for at least the next 15 years, then?

I'm asking because you have never actually ANSWERED the question of whether you are going to leave her.


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## WhiteRaven

Horizon said:


> WhiteRaven - ummm.... I'm a little slow on the uptake as in that one's gone right over the top. Has something in my thread lead you to believe that?


You posted somewhere you did OM's mommy. You are an inspiration, truly.


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## Horizon

WhiteRaven said:


> You posted somewhere you did OM's mommy. You are an inspiration, truly.


Not me. If I wrote that, implied it somewhere on my thread I will have to delete it. Not true.


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## WhiteRaven

Horizon said:


> Not me. If I wrote that, implied it somewhere on my thread I will have to delete it. Not true.


Mea Culpa. Still the thought of it gave me new ideas. Thanks.


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## carpenoctem

Change WILL come, Horizon.

*Perhaps as friend, or as foe. But it WILL come.*

Having said that, let me also quote: The only thing you can change is yourself. But sometimes, THAT changes everything else.

I confess I also am a victim of self-perpetuated stasis. It's so easy to advise.


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## Horizon

WhiteRaven said:


> Mea Culpa. Still the thought of it gave me new ideas. Thanks.


Yeah, that's a twist - avoid the POSOM's wife and go for the mother.


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## WhiteRaven

Horizon said:


> Yeah, that's a twist - avoid the POSOM's wife and go for the mother.


Why avoid when you can have it all?:smthumbup:


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## Decorum

Horizon,
Did I miss somewhere that you were not actually married?
Is that something you are just now revealing?

Are you considered common law in your Provence?

Seems I remember discussing her paying some maintenance.



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> At least / above all, you got off the hamster wheel, Horizon.
> 
> Best of luck in moving ahead.


I think this is true and it required Horizon doing some work in IC and facing some hard truths.

I think your are doing well Horizon, keep getting stronger and do the right things so you can regain some of your lost self-esteem.

Lost in your youth, lost in your own cheating, lost in your wife's infidelity.

You are a worthy person, keep working on yourself.

Your partner is a side note now, you know what is important, your health and well being, your kids, and moving on.

I wish you well,
Take care.


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## Nucking Futs

Decorum said:


> Horizon,
> Did I miss somewhere that you were not actually married?
> Is that something you are just now revealing?
> 
> Are you considered common law in your Provence?
> 
> Seems I remember discussing her paying some maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is true and it required Horizon doing some work in IC and facing some hard truths.
> 
> I think your are doing well Horizon, keep getting stronger and do the right things so you can regain some of your lost self-esteem.
> 
> Lost in your youth, lost in your own cheating, lost in your wife's infidelity.
> 
> You are a worthy person, keep working on yourself.
> 
> Your partner is a side note now, you know what is important, your health and well being, your kids, and moving on.
> 
> I wish you well,
> Take care.


Yep, you missed it, he's talked about it all the way through. In his area the phrase is "de facto", so he has some rights and a lawyer will need to be involved.


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## Horizon

*carpenoctem* - you can feel the change. You feel better, stronger, a little smarter. You know that the actual break will still smack you hard but you realise that that is the next step. There is no reconciliation, no going back. She feels safer in her addictions. I am the opposite now - I get the safety in wanting to stay behind but I simply can't do it anymore.


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## Decorum

Nucking Futs said:


> Yep, you missed it, he's talked about it all the way through. In his area the phrase is "de facto", so he has some rights and a lawyer will need to be involved.


Is that you honey? You know I tend to forget the details.

Sorry NF having a little deja vu to go with my apparent memory loss.


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## BetrayedAgain7

Horizon said:


> carpenoctem- you can feel the change. You feel better, stronger, a little smarter. You know that the actual break will still smack you hard but you realise that that is the next step. There is no reconciliation, no going back. She feels safer in her addictions. I am the opposite now - I get the safety in wanting to stay behind but I simply can't do it anymore.


Good on you Horizon. You sound to me like you are getting there, slowly but surely you are doing it. 

I really hope you are prepared for the possible eventuality of another affair though. 

As you disengage more and more from her, she will more than likely need someone else to provider her with emotional and physical sustenance.
But then again, maybe the whiskey will be enough.

Take good care of you and those kids of yours.


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## Horizon

It might happen again, some say it's very likely - but that's her sh!t. 

Thanks for your kind words BA7.


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## turnera

Are you going to stay in the same house with her while she carries on the next affair?


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## Horizon

I am going to stay in my house and raise my children - she does her bit as any mother does. Despite her problems she does not ignore her parental responsibilities. I am not going to fork out 150 a week on a bedroom with some stranger. This is my home and yes, I have my creature comforts here - modest as they are, I don't need a lot.

I'm doing my own stuff - I'm still working out, pushing for more hours and obviously a FT job ( you have to understand my FT job options are a little limited - much that comes through is heavy lifting stuff, loading unloading, and I just can't sustain that with the dodgy lower back I have). But I will have a FT job.

Why should I be the one to vacate the premises anyway? Of course not, but she refuses to go as well. So I just do what has to be done. If you call that "staying for the kids" then so be it.

It's probably because I had an abusive upbringing but the last thing I want to do is disrupt their lives - they have their friends, their sport, their schools and yes, their creature comforts. It's a pretty good home - except that Mum and Dad, who are perfectly civil 98% of the time just do not love each other.

There is a sh!t load of stuff out there on whether the kids are better off with the parents staying under the same roof or the regrets people had for not separating sooner in their lives etc etc I get it. But I'm a different person now and my belief is that my children will be OK - the heat is off now. I've grown past the daily resentment and anger.

I don't need her to make me feel better and I don't need to fix her - used to believe that once but that is over now; it was part of the co-dependence. I have learned that lesson. And I have realised she is not going to change and it is not my problem anyway.

There is always a price to pay either way. I'm paying this price. If she wants to hook up with someone I don't give a damn. It doesn't bother me now because I know there is a better person out there for me - someone who is not toxic. 

I know why she needs to hook up - it's a pattern she developed way back before my time, I just tuned in to it very late. I wasn't awake to what I participated in.

See, your thinking this is a long winded excuse for being a doormat but it's not. I don't need to know what she is up to now - I'm not her partner, her lover or her bloody parent; I'm not even her housemate. Her sh!t is her sh!t. For now I am here - things change, but I know in my heart this is where I have to be now.

She can't humiliate me T - that's over.


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## turnera

I'm fine with you staying for the kids. I did, too. I'm not fine with your kids watching their mom cheat on their dad. I hope to God you have the fortitude to find a way to put a stop to that. Otherwise, guess what happens, no matter HOW good a dad you are? They will become adults who either cheat or become doormats. Because children become what they observe.


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## Nucking Futs

How's life treating you Horizon?


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## Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs said:


> How's life treating you Horizon?


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## Horizon

Hi NF and hello dear friends,

thanks for asking. Life is pretty good. I'm making great progress in counselling and have finally jagged that full-time job. Hell, that took a while. The process involved for older workers to get a job is plainly disgraceful.

I am weaning myself off the anti-depressant Pristiqu for no other reason than I was confident I could do without it. So far so good, though things can get a bit 'funny' - but nothing too outrageous.

I am still living in my home and it has pretty much settled down. My ex WS does her thing and I do mine and we sort the parenting as required. For those wondering, she does not bring anyone here and to my knowledge is not involved with anyone. But "frankly I don't give a damn".

The big thing for her was suddenly losing her brand new job with the big pay packet and OS travel. That was a massive blow to her and she has had to lower her expectations with a less well paid position.

To her credit she has cut right back on her consumption of alcohol and is even supporting my goal to eradicate junk food from the pantry and having it as an occasional treat. The kids aren't impressed but there are alternatives.

So all things considered it could be a hell of a lot worse. Feel free to ask me anything. I trust that you are all well and heading in the right direction.

best wishes Horizon

PS: Forgot to mention - I have had some "contact" with the opposite sex in recent times. Just saying.


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## bandit.45

You got laid?  good for you!


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## Decorum

Hey glad to hear you are making healthy choices my friend.
You sound relativity positive.

Did I miss where you updated on her losing her job what happened?


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## warlock07

Does she know?


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## Horizon

hello Decorum,

no I haven't posted about that before. I have rarely checked in of late. Been reading mostly or adding a like.

True Bandit - quite odd & funny & enjoyable.

Warlock - I have not openly told her but I figure she has worked it out from my occasional weekend absences.


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## warlock07

What if she brings OM back into her life ? Would you care ?


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## bandit.45

I don't advocate open marriage, but I guess in this case...


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## carmen ohio

Horizon said:


> Hi NF and hello dear friends,
> 
> thanks for asking. Life is pretty good. I'm making great progress in counselling and have finally jagged that full-time job. Hell, that took a while. The process involved for older workers to get a job is plainly disgraceful.
> 
> I am weaning myself off the anti-depressant Pristiqu for no other reason than I was confident I could do without it. So far so good, though things can get a bit 'funny' - but nothing too outrageous.
> 
> I am still living in my home and it has pretty much settled down. My ex WS does her thing and I do mine and we sort the parenting as required. For those wondering, she does not bring anyone here and to my knowledge is not involved with anyone. But "frankly I don't give a damn".
> 
> The big thing for her was suddenly losing her brand new job with the big pay packet and OS travel. That was a massive blow to her and she has had to lower her expectations with a less well paid position.
> 
> To her credit she has cut right back on her consumption of alcohol and is even supporting my goal to eradicate junk food from the pantry and having it as an occasional treat. The kids aren't impressed but there are alternatives.
> 
> So all things considered it could be a hell of a lot worse. Feel free to ask me anything. I trust that you are all well and heading in the right direction.
> 
> best wishes Horizon
> 
> PS: Forgot to mention - I have had some "contact" with the opposite sex in recent times. Just saying.


Horizon, you should be really proud of how much you have accomplished in the past year and a half. Keep it up, mate.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: After the Lies - their connection fully revealed*



carmen ohio said:


> Horizon, you should be really proud of how much you have accomplished in the past year and a half. Keep it up, mate.


Damned right!


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## carpenoctem

Horizon:

A full-time job. A self-supported spinal column. Attention from the opposite sex. Self-containment and confidence.

You have overcome your WW’s influence on your mental state, and reinvented yourself in an impressive manner. Or you are getting there.

Glad to know. Congratulations.

*Please hold on to that job like one would hold on to one’s pacemaker.*


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## Horizon

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Horizon:
> 
> A full-time job. A self-supported spinal column. Attention from the opposite sex. Self-containment and confidence.
> 
> You have overcome your WW’s influence on your mental state, and reinvented yourself in an impressive manner. Or you are getting there.
> 
> Glad to know. Congratulations.
> 
> *Please hold on to that job like one would hold on to one’s pacemaker.*


I will ! My progress would have been a lot more arduous without my TAM friends. Don't misunderstand me, I have had setbacks and I still trigger from time to time but I'm in a much better place - no doubt about that. I'm even just about over the revenge fantasies - they took up some brain cells I can tell you.

Still gyming it as well. That was a big hurdle for me but I'm in that nice zone now where if I'm not there I miss it. I have a kind of craving for it now which is cool. Nothing fancy, just weights and cardio via the cross trainer. All good - though I have to say getting rid of the gut is the toughest bit.

Can't thank you all enough. Be well good people.

Until next time - Horizon in Oz


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## G.J.

Took me all day to read and I'm so happy you have found your self
I actually felt a warm glow at the end


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## bandit.45

I havent always been your mate Horizon, and for that I apologize. 

But you know there were times I wanted to wring your goddamn neck.


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> I havent always been your mate Horizon, and for that I apologize.
> 
> But you know there were times I wanted to wring your goddamn neck.


I agree but he has evolved better late than never.


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## happyman64

Good for you Horizon.


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