# Separation is so painful I can't describe it. Trying to Man Up!



## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm about to go through a separation from my wife of 9 years & I’m completely crushed. I love her more then anything & feel completely lost without her. We have a 7 yr old son & he too is my pride and joy. This is my 2nd marriage and have 2 teenage girls from 1st marriage.

We have always done many things married couples shouldn't do. Separate finances, sleeping arrangements (I snore), separate friends, etc. However, we always found a way to make it work. Two good people from two good families I guess is what made it work. 

We've had ups & downs and gotten over some hurdles most marriages couldn't. We have had a past of breakups (while dating) where I would move out for 6 months & then my wife would call crying asking me to come back and I always did. I love her what can I say.

I was always the initiator, the one giving hugs & saying how much I love her. She would say “I love you” back, but over the years the strength of her love was weakening. Everyone saw it but I denied it. Our sex life was never anything to talk about. I denied all of this for a while. 

For her, having to deal with me complaining about my X, my daughters (who have not been all that great to me), finances & getting all worked up over small stuff has taken it’s toll on her. She’s lost the feeling. Regardless of anything, my wife is an extremely caring and sweet person that would not hurt a fly. 

She said we need to separate. She's unhappy. She's not interested right now at working on the marriage. She cares alot about me but doesn’t have the 100% to give me that she says I should have. She has been giving 80% but does not have the other 20% (i.e. sex drive, feelings a wife should have for her husband, that spouse connection, etc). 

I did the phone log check and played private investigator. I found the EA. She admitted to exchanging text messages that were flirtatious but that’s all. He is someone she knows for 15 years (works with) and safe to speak with since she has absolutely no feelings of it going any further. 

After a few days of not being able to deal with it, I called the guy and gave him a piece of my mind. He said he knows my wife a long time and it's always been casual banter and work related. Nothing more. No idea what I was speaking about and stuck with that story. My wife's cousin (who I have always been close with) confirmed for me I had absolutely nothing to worry about with him and swore up and down he is nothing more then a friend for a long time. I believe her. 

Anyway, I have been a lost ever since this has all gone down, walking around like a zombie, depressed, lonely, weak when I see her and wanting her more and more. I have been literally forcing myself to eat since she lowered the boom.

I know I have to leave my house soon and stay a few nights a week (to start) at a cousins house, but I so badly want to win her back. I crumble and show weakness whenever she’s around. It’s hard still living in the same house. I'll do anything. Family and friends said I need to do the 180 on her. Is that what I do to win her back? If so, how?

Thanks.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

The 180 is to put yourself in a better place for moving on. If you're doing it to "win her back", you're missing the entire point to it, and it will fail eventually as you revert back to your default behaviors, since you didn't actually change but were just putting on a performance.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks PBear. Appreciate the reply. Your right, to me the 180 was changing the fact that I always look weak and fragile and doing the 180 to come off as tough and I can survive without you (but really hoping she'd breakdown and say she really misses me and wants to possibly work on things). I guess then if I do the 180 it's more to fix me and get myself better. 

With that said, how would I then go about winning her back and her looking at me in a different light??


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Thanks PBear. Appreciate the reply. Your right, to me the 180 was changing the fact that I always look weak and fragile and doing the 180 to come off as tough and I can survive without you (but really hoping she'd breakdown and say she really misses me and wants to possibly work on things). I guess then if I do the 180 it's more to fix me and get myself better.
> 
> With that said, how would I then go about winning her back and her looking at me in a different light??


Being the kind of man your W could date. I know what my wife's interests are, I know how to humor her, etc. And, I know what kind of guy she'll be seeking. Be that man. Show her things you've neglected over the marriage. Be the person she originally fell in love with. What did you do? How did you act?

Force yourself to do this for YOU. Not in hopes and attempts at getting her back. Because, you will run into setbacks, dismissals, rejection even, but if you react differently (than your habit), and do all of these things consistently, over time, it will show her that change is possible. 

Even if she came back to you, don't shelve the new ways/attitudes. Keep it up. Forge a new relationship (your marriage didn't work, so don't return to it).


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks JayB. Wow. What you said made so much sense and really struck me to open up to things I would have never thought of so thanks again. 

She always said I looked at things on the negative side. She always said I (me) was never happy and complaining about something or someone. Maybe I can change my outlook on things and stop the negativity. I know I can and will.

She is crying to me today (in an email) saying "I am sick, and sad, and tired, and sorry" her exact words. How do I answer that? Do I stay strong and not reply and make it like I'm not jumping at the slightest thing she sends me? I want to, but think alot of this is phycological and I need to ignore it to get better. Am I wrong?? So damm lost. ughhh


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

bippy17 said:


> Thanks JayB. Wow. What you said made so much sense and really struck me to open up to things I would have never thought of so thanks again.
> 
> She always said I looked at things on the negative side. She always said I (me) was never happy and complaining about something or someone. Maybe I can change my outlook on things and stop the negativity. I know I can and will.
> 
> She is crying to me today (in an email) saying "I am sick, and sad, and tired, and sorry" her exact words. How do I answer that? Do I stay strong and not reply and make it like I'm not jumping at the slightest thing she sends me? I want to, but think alot of this is phycological and I need to ignore it to get better. Am I wrong?? So damm lost. ughhh


Complaining and negativity really strains the marriage. I broke my neck 4 years ago, but I do my best NOT to complain about the daily severe pain. Its not easy, but I try to put myself in others shoes. I do my best looking for the positive things in life even though I feel trapped in my own body. 

My husband never complains about anything, ever. I often wonder how he does it. He is the most positive person and this is what helps me stay positive. I couldn't do it without my husband. If he was negative all the time, I don't think I could stay.

Both my husband and I had horrible marriages prior to us getting married. I had a child previously and he did not. My ex is abusive and unfaithful. I put that all behind me and moved on a very long time ago. Neither one of us bring up the past. We both look forward towards the future, even though it's difficult at times.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it. Do I reply to the wife when she tells me she is hurting and sick when she is the one who initiated this? I want to reply but feel like this is a chess match at times. I want to be there for her but have to start thinking of me and healing without her sending me these notes throwing me off and setting me back. I want to give everything I got to win her back but not sure if I do that everytime, when she throws me a crumb or just give her what she wants and ignore it??? I have said too many times how much I love her to her and would do anything to make it right. 

Please help, I love the feedback!


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it. Do I reply to the wife when she tells me she is hurting and sick when she is the one who initiated this? I want to reply but feel like this is a chess match at times. I want to be there for her but have to start thinking of me and healing without her sending me these notes throwing me off and setting me back. I want to give everything I got to win her back but not sure if I do that everytime, when she throws me a crumb or just give her what she wants and ignore it??? I have said too many times how much I love her to her and would do anything to make it right.
> 
> Please help, I love the feedback!


I would play it cool. Say you understand. But let your actions speak for you. Remain calm. Relaxed. In control.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks Jayb for the reply. Going to take your advice and just give a very short reply so that she doesn't think I am mad or anything.

Let me tell you though, Man it's hard when she shows her weakness and for me to act all like I don't care. But I know this may be one of the only shots I have to turn the tables and see what happens. Does that make se:scratchhead:nse?


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Thanks Jayb for the reply. Going to take your advice and just give a very short reply so that she doesn't think I am mad or anything.
> 
> Let me tell you though, Man it's hard when she shows her weakness and for me to act all like I don't care. But I know this may be one of the only shots I have to turn the tables and see what happens. Does that make se:scratchhead:nse?


It does make sense in a weird way. I wish I'd follow my own advice! You're farther along than I. My W remains detached/resistant to anything other than being friends. Has no "love feeling" at all that I can see.

I wish you the best.


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## lovemygirls (Feb 26, 2012)

"Anyway, I have been a lost ever since this has all gone down, walking around like a zombie, depressed, lonely, weak when I see her and wanting her more and more. I have been literally forcing myself to eat since she lowered the boom."

I'm right there with you. It's nauseating. 

I like the advice of JayB. "Being the kind of man your W could date." That's who she married and we once were. Did we just let things go? Did I let them go? All I can come up with is communication.

I spent the entire weekend inside. Yesterday I finally had enough. I'm going to give this my all. I picked up two more books today, "Hold me tightly" & "The Seven Principles for making marriage work". I've started eating as healthy as possible and next week is back in the gym. 

Everyday I'm making it my quest to try to address what I've neglected, who I am, who she is, who we are as a family. 

For whoever long it takes, or however much time I have, this is what I'm going to do. And at the end of it all, I have to try and keep the courage in the forefront of my mind to know that I've tried my very best.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Jayb and Lovemygirls thanks so much for the feedback. Let me tell you it really helps. Beleive me, my wife breaksdown, but still wants to be apart. By me answering her and showing my whole hand is not going to let her miss me. Sounds childish but being weak and jumping at everything she says (throwing a crumb once in a blue moon) to be the nice guy just does not work and delivers no results. 

It's not like anything has changed as far as her feelings. I'm not going home tonight (staying with family). It's going to really sting later on I know it. 

Jayb's advice to "play it cool. Say you understand. But let your actions speak for you. Remain calm. Relaxed. In control." sounds like it makes the most. 

I want her back so bad it hurts so bad. However, I guess I have to think it's ok to go through the pain to think after pain comes success and reward. Thoughts??


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Jayb and Lovemygirls thanks so much for the feedback. Let me tell you it really helps. Beleive me, my wife breaksdown, but still wants to be apart. By me answering her and showing my whole hand is not going to let her miss me. Sounds childish but being weak and jumping at everything she says (throwing a crumb once in a blue moon) to be the nice guy just does not work and delivers no results.
> 
> It's not like anything has changed as far as her feelings. I'm not going home tonight (staying with family). It's going to really sting later on I know it.
> 
> ...





I know this too. My heart is ripping. I made mistakes in our M that I'm trying to over-correct now. All of the should-haves, could-haves, would-haves are way too much for my W to consider and believe at this point. And, all of this didn't happen overnight. That's why I'm determined to be present in the moment. To think before I act. Turn-off the autopilot. Any turnaround will take time.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Because, the reward is what you do to and for YOU. I'm processing the fact that my W may have doubts, regrets, etc. and STILL want to leave. Even after the D, she may have that and STILL want to be divorced. She may have 2nd thoughts, etc., but STILL won't come back to me out fear, guilt, etc. Take those possibilities to heart.

That's why it's so important to be focused on YOU. Yes, love her. But, love YOU.

I pray that what I write to you, I can apply it to my own situation.

It is very hard.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Keep breathing and moving forward. 

Do all aspects of the 180, but concentrate on the positive behaviors (cheerfulness, positivity, getting back into shape, eating healthy, being acessible to your kids, etc.).


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

All of you guys have been just fantastic in the feedback. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Wow, really looking at things now in a much different light. 

Yes, I am a weak person and when I hear in her voice that she is sorry, that she agrees time will tell if ever there is a chance(even though I need to move out and be on my own), I still have that little glimmer of hope that sits inside me, that crosses my mind in every instance we are in each others company. I also have the down time where I wonder where she is, who she is talking to, who is making a move on her, who is putting crap in her head, etc. those things completly torture me and is what I mainly struggle with. "Bandit.45" Your right, I will breath and make sure to concentrate on positive. Hard during down time. 

"Jayb" and "lovemygirls" thanks buddy. Your really helping me to understand and think more about me. I guess going forward is to continue to be positive, get a plan to move out (not beiong forced out), hoping that while i'm out and settled maybe God will bring us together one day again.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

bippy I think you've got to get it to where you're not playing a game, but working with facts. You can't game her and manipulate her into wanting you back. And even if you did, you'd have solved nothing.

She has said she doesn't feel it for you, is unhappy, and doesn't want to work on the marriage. Is talking to other man about it... but the hopeful you hears an additional "...right now." 

Her words (and actions now) right there matter most and outweight everything else. When she says she is sorry, you hear "I want you back" in your heart. Whn she says she is sad, you hear "I want you back" in your heart. That is not what she is saying. She's saying she's sad, and she's sorry. That's it.

Work on you - that is the 180. Or perhaps a modified 180... but make yourself better, different attitude, more date-able _because you want to_, not because it's going to "show her". By simply doing it, you will show through to her... Accelerate focus on "you", and slow down focus on "her". 

Good luck!


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

"2xloser" very powerful feedback and I can't tell you how it's helped me to realize the 180 more. 

I got the facts earlier today at 6:15am. She told me everything. 

A few months ago XBoyfriend (of 11yrs) contacted her via email an apologized for treated her badly years ago (he had slept with her cousin amoung other things in the relationship). 

This started an email exchange, phone call and emotional feelings that my w felt "may/I don't know" have lead to a situation that was more then just email and calling. In short, his wife found out about the email, called my w a peice of s%^& and no other contact since. 

My W said this brought her the closure she needed on that relationship (sorry that it caused another family to be hurt). By having those feelings left her confused and scared by why she felt that way about it possible turning into something more. 

The follow up act was what lead to the recent flirtatious text exchanges with her emotional friend of 15 yrs that we discussed about 2 weeks ago. He was a safe venture since she never had those kinds of feeling for him but needed to see if she felt that she had those feelings for just another person or if it was just her X getting in touch and dealing with those emotions. 

She is now more confused after speaking this morning. Crying all the time and telling me she has no idea whats wrong in her head and why this mid-life crisis type behaviour is now coming about. 

As sick as it sounds, this kind of left me releived in 2 ways...One, I feel I now know the deal as to what went down and also leaving me feeling good that it's not me and nothing I can do to change her feelings.

As "2xloser" explained, I cannot do anything other then worry about me and take care of ME and slow down focus on her. 

"Accelerate focus on "you", and slow down focus on "her"." Great advice.

Guess now my next step is to contiune to work on me, don't read into everything (email, text) and interpet it like she wants to come back. Focus on me (planning my next move), and let the cards fall where they may. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Really going to give the 180 a shot. 

Am I thinking right?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Bippy: I like your rationale and your thinking. I couldn't agree more with the advice that our TOM community has given you! Take it in stride, pray about it often, and know that we'll be here for you if you ever need a shoulder! Best of luck to you, my friend! May God bless you and continue to keep a watch over you!


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Over the past 2-3 weeks I have been a zombie. Lost, emotional, confused, not knowing how to act, strong at times, weak most of the time, choked up, faking a smile - basically, lost my identity. 
Along the way leaning on my family for support. However, as you may know, family support comes with a price. The price of them becoming very resentful to my W. Pissed at her. Which makes me feel like it is a big mistake telling them too much but I couldn't help myself needing that shoulder to cry on. They console me one minute and the next telling me to "Wake up and move on already" "you have to be stronger" "your too weak" etc.. They deal with conflict by showing anger. By hating. It's easier for them and they can't understand why I cannot be that way. Well I am not. 

Their pressure and feedback to "move on already", "you guys never really had a great marriage", "she's this and she's that" made me reflect on things more driving home from work yesterday. I thought about carefully analyzing/filtering what I say to all of them (mom, dad, sis, etc.). I need to stop wining to them even when it feels good to let it out. I pay the price every time with them eventually throwing things up in my face and hating my W more. This is not about them, it's about me. Ugghhhh!

Anyway, after thinking I realized and ready to take the next step in this horrible separation process that is probably just the "dress rehearsal" for divorce, I still striked up yet another conversation last night with my W. What was supposed to be a money conversation and come up with a $$ amount so I can understand what I need to pay her monthly and what I can afford so I can get my own place, turned into me sulking again to her. Showing the weak man. Turning her off again. Still not getting it. Still needing her to hurt me yet again and say she is "checked out" at this moment. Still having to show my weakness, and unappealing presence was so degrading and I knew it but couldn't hold back. It sucked. Really it did. She made it clear yet again that we have no heart beat in this marriage at this time and we need to separate and that she is definitely done. Did not leave any gray area at all and to please stop asking the same thing over and over cause it just sets us back. 

After being slapped in the face yet again with hearing her hurt me again (I asked for it) and saying how sorry she was ("love you and care about you but I do not have that spouse love and not sure where I lost it"), I said to my self last night (while alone) that my life (me) has had enough. It's 180 time. Time to change me for me and only me. To be there for my son and daughters, to find a new home, to be happy, to get my personality back, etc. 

Time to grow up and face this by not just saying it but letting my actions show, by sticking to a plan to "180 it" right now. Not tomorrow but now. I knew today was going to be a good day and pray to God that tomorrow is better and wink at that guy in the mirror and say "It's gonna be alright kid" "you can do this". I hope this makes sense to some of you out there who are further along in this crappy process then I am. Please, I welcome you passing your thoughts and motivation on to me, I need it and plan to learn everyday how to get stronger for me and hope for the day in the future that I will be happy either by being alone, with a new partner or back with my W. 

Whatever God has in store I need to go with because I know he has never let me down.

Thanks everyone for allowing me to let it all out and listening.

Matt


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Matt:

I know how torn-up you are. I still am, but by the grace of our Lord, I'm getting better. If you'll take the time to read my story on here, it's a living testament to literally being dumped on the side of the road kind of like a dog.

I've been in Christ since I was a Sophomore in college. I have always felt his presence in my life and I really felt the love of God in all that I did. This past weekend, I finally took part in the "Walk to Emmaus" through my church, and let me tell you that even as a practicing Christian(Methodist), I found out that I had no conception of what all His love entailed. I went in there feeling that my cross was bigger and heavier than anybody elses, just to find that mine only pales in comparison. Instead of being ministered to, I started ministering to those other guys.

Like you, few of my friends want to ford the discussion of my situation, however my "real friends" do, and therein is the blessing. My STBXW is trying to play a game of "character assassination" against me by lying to her family about me in order to justify her position. The sad thing is that I truly love those folks more than anything in the world, and miss them so very much. Anyway, I've prayed about it and have forgiven my STBXW, and although it hurts, it is time to move on.

If you belong to a church, keep going and continue to greatly enrich your spiritual side. Tell your problems to your pastor or spiritual leader. They will sit down and unhurriedly listen to you and provide you with great counsel.

And if you need to send me a private message on here, I'll be happy to respond and keep up with you. You may not know it, but the Heavenly Father knows all too well what you're going through and what the truth is. Embrace His grace and His unending love for you.

And when you get done praying, ask him to send us some of that cool New Jersey air down here to the Lone Star State! It's already starting to get overheated down here!

May the Lord's presence continue to be with you, my brother!


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks Arbitrator. I do pray and yes it works. Just hope today's attitude flows over on to tomorrow and the days after. Man this is tough and takes up all your time and effort to be there for YOU.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Hopefully you recognize that your family wants you to be happy. They see you hurting, and lash out at what is causing you pain. They care. They just can't help you, other than team up "on your side". Unfortunately, as you're seeing, this is a process and one you have to row through, mostly on your own, to come out the other side. Don't make the mistake of telling yourself you get it, only to fall into old habits. It will just frustrate you. 

As you start to man-up for yourself -- not for her -- take the option of "back with my w" off the table. Right now you are closer to being with another partner than you are in getting back to her. Set the goal of getting yourself to where you can look back at this time and ask yourself, "Do I even really want to be with her? Does she even deserve me? Do I want someone who I doubt, and who doubts her commitment to me?" Sounds lofty right now perhaps, but it is a real place you must get to... when you move on in actions, the emotions will follow. You WILL get through this, it is an emormously difficult time for you, but there is light on the other side. You already know there is. You jyst have to go really seek it out and not accept the place you're in now. 
Good luck. It's a long and treacherous road with potholes too easy to fall into, but climbing out of each one makes you stronger and wiser. You'll get there.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> Matt:
> 
> I know how torn-up you are. I still am, but by the grace of our Lord, I'm getting better. If you'll take the time to read my story on here, it's a living testament to literally being dumped on the side of the road kind of like a dog.
> 
> ...



Hi Arbitrator - 

This post really hit me. Can I send you a PM? Currently, it says you are not available to receive PM's. I appreciate it.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

2xloser said:


> Hopefully you recognize that your family wants you to be happy. They see you hurting, and lash out at what is causing you pain. They care. They just can't help you, other than team up "on your side". Unfortunately, as you're seeing, this is a process and one you have to row through, mostly on your own, to come out the other side. Don't make the mistake of telling yourself you get it, only to fall into old habits. It will just frustrate you.
> 
> *As you start to man-up for yourself -- not for her -- take the option of "back with my w" off the table. Right now you are closer to being with another partner than you are in getting back to her. Set the goal of getting yourself to where you can look back at this time and ask yourself, "Do I even really want to be with her? Does she even deserve me? Do I want someone who I doubt, and who doubts her commitment to me?" Sounds lofty right now perhaps, but it is a real place you must get to... when you move on in actions, the emotions will follow*. You WILL get through this, it is an emormously difficult time for you, but there is light on the other side. You already know there is. You jyst have to go really seek it out and not accept the place you're in now.
> Good luck. It's a long and treacherous road with potholes too easy to fall into, but climbing out of each one makes you stronger and wiser. You'll get there.



These are some of the doubts I have whnever I'm around her, or even thinking about our situation.

Look at the work I'm doing and willing to do, compared to my W who is checked out. Why would/should I devote my being in learning from my mistakes, asking forgiveness, living and loving, only to be met with indifference from my soulmate spouse? It is incredibly frustrating and hurtful to have her acknowledge my progress and leave it at that.

I also realized I'm pretty much alone in this. My bff was my wife and she can't help me. My next closest friends are my small childen. My family initially told me to move on and directed their anger towards her, but now, withold comments while I sort this out for me.


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## lovemygirls (Feb 26, 2012)

"Look at the work I'm doing and willing to do, compared to my W who is checked out. Why would/should I devote my being in learning from my mistakes, asking forgiveness, living and loving, only to be met with indifference from my soulmate spouse? It is incredibly frustrating and hurtful to have her acknowledge my progress and leave it at that."

Same boat here. I guess at the end of it all, we can say we did everything possible. And we'll be that much better for it; even if the results aren't what we wanted. Sucks man, I know.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Been feeling really good since Tuesday. Trying to turn corner but it's friggin hard. Patting myself on the back always saying "it's gonna be alright kid". that's what gets me through it. Whew, deeeeeep breath......


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## lovemygirls (Feb 26, 2012)

Bippy,

Good to hear man! Keep that up!


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Jayb said:


> Why would/should I devote my being in learning from my mistakes, asking forgiveness, living and loving, only to be met with indifference from my soulmate spouse?


You shouldn't, because she's not your soulmate spouse -- either never was, or is not any longer.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think you should try talking to the ex-bf's wife to know what actually went down. Too many blips in her story


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Been a few weeks since I posted my story and wanted to update everyone on how things have transpired since my last post. 

I have been on my best behavior for the past 3-4 weeks. I have done everything in my power to make the living together separation tolerable and less awkward for both of us. Being as nice and considerate as any man would trying to save his marriage. Because she has said financial issues really played into 60-70% of our issues, I have since paid off my car and started paying extra to creditors, etc. This I feel I have control over this part of things and hopefully shows how much I am taking what she has told me seriously. I have now lost between 45-50 lbs and living at the gym to keep busy and feel good. For the first time in my life I feel I'm in the best shape I have ever been in. However, I can't seem to enjoy this part of my life and the accomplishment I have made physically. 

Over the past 3-4 weeks we have been getting along great. Being able to talk, joke and share what goes on when visiting family (separately). However, knowing in my heart I need to move out to expedite the situation one way or another (knowing it's going towards divorce or seeing if there is any love left), I chose to go on the apartment hunt and find a place to live. It took alot for me to get to this point but I knew it was probably the best move. Her mother, my family and friends all agreed that I needed to do this. I looked for a short term lease (in case something changed along the way). Initially, my W told my family that she thought it would be great for me to be on my own and experience what it would be like to live on my own since I never have (to get some independence). Well, this past Friday I found a place. I went home to get paperwork to ultimately sign a lease and broke the news to my 7yr old son and W that I was leaving.

He cried (crushing to see that) and she seemed to get a tiny bit (just a tiny bit) of a reality check in her facial expression. She asked why I would pay all that money to leave and then put myself in what could be a financial struggle rather then stay home and separately work on ourselves (separately - she was not saying to work on things together/the marriage) to ultimately after a month or 2 or 3 to reconvene and see where we are if we are we ready to work on things or ready to move on. I have no idea where she was going with this. To me, the money would work itself out if I left (it always has) - bottom line, if she wanted me to go I was giving her what she wanted. Right? I handed it to her on a silver platter. She initially wanted me to move on and if something changed then we would deal with it. This is what she wanted but then told me she thought it was a bad move and that how could we ever eventually work on our situation if we are still going to have the financial struggle of now me having my own place. I'm more confused now. What should I make of this?

This past week I have taken the family out to dinner, paying for everything that I can and expressed to her how much the marriage means to me and that I am going to prove how I am not that same guy. All this with trying to balance out how to act in my own house and not making her feel pressured. Ughhh this is tough. 

Yes, she has not changed her feelings towards giving me anything other then hello and goodnight and thank you's for the nice things that I'm doing. But no more. I know I cannot expect anything more then what she is giving me and that it is basically impossible to change how someone feels once they fall out of love with you. I get that and continue to remind myself of that. It's so hard to be under the same roof and not being able after 15 years to hug and kiss my wife. Unbearably hard to get past this want/need. However, I know this cannot happen right now based on the way she feels and giving her space.

I rambled on here so thanks for reading through this crazy situation. I really need any advice anyone can provide.

Thanks All for always being here to listen!

Bippy


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Been a few weeks since I posted my story and wanted to update everyone on how things have transpired since my last post.
> 
> I have been on my best behavior for the past 3-4 weeks. I have done everything in my power to make the living together separation tolerable and less awkward for both of us. Being as nice and considerate as any man would trying to save his marriage. Because she has said financial issues really played into 60-70% of our issues, I have since paid off my car and started paying extra to creditors, etc. This I feel I have control over this part of things and hopefully shows how much I am taking what she has told me seriously. I have now lost between 45-50 lbs and living at the gym to keep busy and feel good. For the first time in my life I feel I'm in the best shape I have ever been in. However, I can't seem to enjoy this part of my life and the accomplishment I have made physically.
> 
> ...



This is my life now. For years, my wife has questioned if I truly loved her. I wish she could see how often I post here!
After reading the 5 Love Leanguages, I'm convinced we both spoke and understood 2 different languages. Our love tanks were on empty for quite some time. I remained committed out of vows and sense of duty more than anything else.

It takes 2.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Your so right, it does take 2. No matter how hard we try to make our spouses fall back in love with us again, it has to come from that person to get the feeling back. We can only do so much. It's what everyone has been telling me. 

All I can say is this, if anyone is thinking about separation and you choose to live with your spouse during the separation to figure out if there is still love or not (on top of maybe financial reasons) and your the one who is still physically attached/attracted, be prepared for the toughest challenge of your life. It is filled with rejection, constant hurt and trying to interpret every word that is spoken to you by your spouse to see if what he/she said means they arfe coming around or getting more distant.

WOW, Life should not be this hard!


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## sd212 (Feb 24, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Your so right, it does take 2. No matter how hard we try to make our spouses fall back in love with us again, it has to come from that person to get the feeling back. We can only do so much. It's what everyone has been telling me.
> 
> All I can say is this, if anyone is thinking about separation and you choose to live with your spouse during the separation to figure out if there is still love or not (on top of maybe financial reasons) and your the one who is still physically attached/attracted, be prepared for the toughest challenge of your life. It is filled with rejection, constant hurt and trying to interpret every word that is spoken to you by your spouse to see if what he/she said means they arfe coming around or getting more distant.
> 
> WOW, Life should not be this hard!


This could not be more true. Was without question the worst part of this process and I would never live under the same roof if I had it to do over. I'm also positive that doing so taught her that I'm a doormat who will be here for her no matter what she does to me. I so should have shown her what she was giving up.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks SD212. WOW, thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. 

Man, it is definetly hard. I'm here because she said if I moved out and incurred the additional expenses of having my own place, how would we be able to fix us if we can't fix our finances first. 

Mixed signals by her everyday. She's a little close one day and joking and then the next day everything is cut and dry. But yet when we do sit down and talk (which makes me feel like I'm the weaker one for whatever reason), she makes it like "hey nothing's changed, it's only been a few days since we discussed how we are going to approach this" "it's not going to happen over night", etc. ...drives me nuts.

But your right, I do feel like a doormat sometimes and I can set my mind to be strong all day long before I see her, but the minute we are in a room together, I crumble and get weak and want to jump her bones..hahaha....Am I nuts??

Feel like pinching myself to wake up from this bad dream.


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## sd212 (Feb 24, 2012)

You are NOT nuts. I was\am exactly the same way. Much of my IC has been about why I can't seem to see her for what she is now and in spite of all of it I would give my life to be naked with her again 
: ) I'm exaggerating of course but what you're feeling is precisely what I felt. Cut yourself some slack on your feelings, they are natural.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks Bud. Means alot. It's weird ya know when your going through this lousy time in your life, you feel like your always under the spotlight, your the only one on earth going through it.


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## jenny123 (Mar 21, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Your so right, it does take 2. No matter how hard we try to make our spouses fall back in love with us again, it has to come from that person to get the feeling back. We can only do so much. It's what everyone has been telling me.
> 
> All I can say is this, if anyone is thinking about separation and you choose to live with your spouse during the separation to figure out if there is still love or not (on top of maybe financial reasons) and your the one who is still physically attached/attracted, be prepared for the toughest challenge of your life. It is filled with rejection, constant hurt and trying to interpret every word that is spoken to you by your spouse to see if what he/she said means they arfe coming around or getting more distant.
> 
> WOW, Life should not be this hard!


We are still in the same house. It has been a month since he told me he wants a separation. It really is pure hell. I can not live like this. He doesn't understand because he is not the one hurting. I just can't believe how cruel and undetached a person can get after spending 22 years together. I just got back with the kids after a few days out of state and I get home to see he buys a new welcome flag outside and restocked the pantry and tells my son to tell me that I can also eat the food, it's for everyone??!!!??? This "man" is out of his mind! He has no intentions of leaving, so unfortunately I am going to have to go the legal route. He wanted a separation....doesn't that mean we SEPARATE??


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

Sounds consitent that the spouse who initiates the Separation is the one that really doesn't know what they want after you give them their space. They will drive you nuts trying to keep up with their personality. It could become consuming and damaging to your own mind if YOU don't come to the realization that whatever they do or say means nothing but garbage, mind games and trying to help themselves feel better about the guilt and that your still emotionally attached to them. Thats why it's important to stay true to yourself, become better for YOU not them. When someone wants you/needs you/loves you they will tell you not play games. Simple as that.


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Your so right, it does take 2. No matter how hard we try to make our spouses fall back in love with us again, it has to come from that person to get the feeling back. We can only do so much. It's what everyone has been telling me.
> 
> All I can say is this, if anyone is thinking about separation and you choose to live with your spouse during the separation to figure out if there is still love or not (on top of maybe financial reasons) and your the one who is still physically attached/attracted, be prepared for the toughest challenge of your life. It is filled with rejection, constant hurt and trying to interpret every word that is spoken to you by your spouse to see if what he/she said means they arfe coming around or getting more distant.
> 
> WOW, Life should not be this hard!


This is EXCACTLY where I am right now after 15years of marriage...and you hit the nail on the head: it IS the most difficult thing I have ever been through...hoping/praying for the best. 

You've never stated though if you guys were seeing a MC or anything, are you? If not, you may want to look into it even if it is alone.


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## chocolategeek (Mar 8, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> Thanks SD212. WOW, thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
> 
> Man, it is definetly hard. I'm here because she said if I moved out and incurred the additional expenses of having my own place, how would we be able to fix us if we can't fix our finances first.
> 
> ...


Bippy, I think she's confused herself. But her stopping you from moving out sounds a little suspicious. If she didn't care about you, wouldn't she even be happy you were moving out? And "how would we be able to fix us if we can't fix our finances first?" This is quite loaded. She's outright talking about fixing the marriage, but I think she doesn't quite know how to go about it so she gives some excuse about fixing your finances first. 

Do the 180 for you. Her brain's all muddled up so you can't expect her to make sound decisions. Take up a new hobby (or rekindle an old one); go out and have good, clean fun with friends; get out there and explore what the world has to offer you. Build a life of your own that has nothing to do with her, but don't do anything you'd be ashamed of if she found out. 

I've tried being emotionally abandoned by my H and "separated" while still living in the same house. It was hell for 2 years. Being separated and living under one roof basically does not work. I suggest thinking about getting that apartment if she doesn't turn around soon. She can't see what she'll be missing if you're still there. 

And here's a great post about doing a 180:



marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> ...


Will pray for your strength and wisdom in these hard times.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm still in the same house with my stbxw and it's tough. 

90% of the time now we get along and connect better than we have in years. Still sleep in the same bed and this past week she even reached out and asked if I could hold her because she was cold in bed. Not gonna lie... it was nice. Since then we sleep next to each other all night.

But the flip side is that I caught ler in another lie about the OW. They have pulled back on their relationship to pretty much just a texting thing but she is very much still in the fog over her.

It's a constant struggle of feelings like SD said of not wanting to be the doormat and show her what she is missing versus staying in the house with her and the kids and loving the time together for that 90%.

I think the 10,000 dollar question is am I helping my chances of R by staying and building the love bank or am i shooting myself in the foot by not showing her what she would be missing by moving out....

I would pay any amount of money for someone to answer that question...


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Lol....

and then Chocolate comes along and lays out a clear case why I should move out.

I think.....


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

"Chocolate" and "Coachman" thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it. Great stuff.

I think your spot on with the fact that she has confused herself. And exactly, if she wanted me out I handed it to her on a silver platter. Why would she stop me saying that the money made no sense and we would not be ablt to address us if we brought in that additional expense of me getting an apartment? Let's be real here, when you want out you feel the money stuff will work itself out. right? 

To me it's confusing. Does she just want me here for financial reasons? Does she want to see if we spend the next 1-2 months working on finances to see if this opens up a tiny tiny light to focus on us? I am more f'd up since this went down this past Friday. Took alot to get the courage to get my own place (you have no idea) I agree that it may occasionally cross her mind about fixing this mess but not so sure since all I do is get rejected. Constantly rejected. Maybe I just need the deeeep breath and give it a little time to see if anything at all changes.

I agree about the 180. I need it bad. Bad. 

I couldn't agree with you more (which is why I wanted the apartment) that she will never come around if I am still here. 

I have an appointment tomorrow with my shrink to lay all these things out and see what she says. Head is spinning so fast. Whew.


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## jenny123 (Mar 21, 2012)

bippy17 said:


> sounds consitent that the spouse who initiates the separation is the one that really doesn't know what they want after you give them their space. They will drive you nuts trying to keep up with their personality. It could become consuming and damaging to your own mind if you don't come to the realization that whatever they do or say means nothing but garbage, mind games and trying to help themselves feel better about the guilt and that your still emotionally attached to them. Thats why it's important to stay true to yourself, become better for you not them. When someone wants you/needs you/loves you they will tell you not play games. Simple as that.



^this!!!!


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## chocolategeek (Mar 8, 2012)

coachman said:


> I'm still in the same house with my stbxw and it's tough.
> 
> 90% of the time now we get along and connect better than we have in years. Still sleep in the same bed and this past week she even reached out and asked if I could hold her because she was cold in bed. Not gonna lie... it was nice. Since then we sleep next to each other all night.
> 
> ...


Coachman, I know how hard it is being in limbo. And I can't say for sure whether you'd be better off staying and trying to make deposits in her love account or leaving and focusing on you. Only you can feel when you've had enough of the confusion and the lies. You can't have a loving marriage with lies and indecision. Both spouses have to have radical honesty and true commitment.

I bore with being separated for eight months and living in the same house when I saw that my H wasn't changing but getting worse. I couldn't be the one to leave since I became pregnant with our third child during the fifth month of our separation, and I couldn't drag our two young kids with me. I asked him to leave. 

It did a lot of good and I was able to focus on myself and the children. Ignored him for the most part while I worked, had fun, and pursued my interests. But I was only able to make him leave when I'd had enough. Prior to that, I was still hoping things would turn around and that we would reconcile. Didn't happen. Get in tune with your gut feel. Give it a bit more time. You would know when she's making real changes to better herself and the marriage, or when you've had enough. How long have you been separated, by the way?

If she wants to work on both of you again, you need to hear it directly from her. No mixed signals and sleeping beside each other with her still texting the other person. If she doesn't change, you will absolutely feel it in your gut and in your heart that you've had enough. You won't have an ounce of confusion and the only thing you'd want is to be away from her and the hurt that she's choosing to cause you. You would know.

So, do I get the $10,000? Lol. J/k.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

We have been separated for about 3 months. - Sorry about the length on this one...once you get going sometimes it just wants to all come out. I know you guys understand. Anyway...

She has made it clear that she has no intention of R as of now. She and the OW still think they are "soul mates" and that they will spend the rest of eternity together. Of course the OW is still living with her BF and daughter. Its a strange story and if someone would have said I would be mixed up in this kind of drama tearing apart two families, I never would have believed it. The irony is...the OW is cake eating and staying in her situation just as my wife is with me but she doesn't realize it.

There relationship would never last in the light of day...but of course they don't see it that way. The fog is a powerful thing. Unless you see someone in it...it's hard to imagine the power it can have. It's a crazy thing to witness first hand. 

At the same time she has never once talked about filing for divorce. I have brought it up in the past couple months and she says that's fine...go file because I don't consider us married anyway. Which I understand..because her EA/PA with OW voided the marriage, but she's in no hurry to make it official. 

I only plan on being in the house for a couple more months while we save money for one of us to move out. I have gone back and forth with moving, and I think I will be the one to leave. I think if she left it would just give her more of a feeling of starting over new as opposed to her feeling..oh $hit...he is actually gone. When I do leave...she is going to be a mess... I have no doubt about that. When she realizes what she lost it is going to be a rude awakening. It's very possible she ends up without me or the OW. 

My gut tells me that there is no hope for R while she is still involved with the OW. Which I think is pretty common sense. We have a great time together and like I said...most of the family time we spend together now is wonderful. The hugs we share or times we spend close in bed is just icing on the cake for me. I honestly don't get my hopes up or make it a big deal because if I did..I know she would pull back immediately. It's something I enter into completely on my own knowing it most likely means nothing to her...but at the same time i know it couldn't hurt the cause and it's something I'm sure a lot of people on TAM would kill to have one last time. So I'm trying to just appreciate it for what it is. Enjoying that last little bit of intimacy that I can get because it could end any day.

Her lies about the OW are almost all because of the fog. I love my wife more than anything...but now I only get glimpses of her. 

So that's the plan at this point...enjoy the next couple months together and build the love bank. If it makes a difference then great...if not, then I'm making sure the guy who walks out the door is best version of me imaginable. In shape, confident and a changed man... for me. I have never had a problem with women but when I finally leave, if she doesn't stop me before I walk out...I'm never turning back. And even if she does stop me..she would have to have a completely different attitude and be committed to R and I just don't see that happening. 

I have prayed for R long ago and work everyday at putting it to bed. Now I'm just enjoying the time we have with the kids in the same house. It will kill me not seeing them every night but I know that if that day comes when I leave the house...if she doesn't stop me and commit to working on things together... then it's for the best.

Chocolate - I have appreciated your posts so much and it has helped me more than you know reading your wise words from someone who has actually lived it. 

Like everyone, i have good days and bad but thanks to this site and the numerous books I have read since I found out about the A I would like to think I have all the tools to come out the other end a much better person. Of course I would have loved that one last shot knowing everything I know now....but life just doesn't work that way. Thanks for reading everyone and I appreciate everyone's feedback.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Oh and the $10,000 check is in the mail!!!


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

As I mentioned in one of my previous notes, last Friday I discussed with my Wife that I was leaving and was going to sign a 6 month lease on a apartment. At the time, she said it made no sense to leave knowing that it would bring an additional financial burden onto me that would eventually not enable us to focus on the marriage issues, and still leave the financial issues on the table. This prohibiting us to eventually focus on us. With that said I did not take the apartment.

This morning we were discussing my appointment tonight with the psychiatrist and I wanted to make sure we were on the same page with the questions I had for the psychiatrist. I said I was going in there to discuss a few things:

1. How do we stay in the same house and continue to be cordial, nice and comfortable to each other? Can that work with me not getting frustrated and having no expectations other then co-existing in the same house?
2. When during this time (in the same house) is it right to start to focus on us? How do I do this without making her feel pressured?
3. When do we decide this is not working or is working and we'll continue?

Well little did I know she took away from our last Friday conversation this....That I would stay at home for another 6 weeks until I was able to be in a little bit better financial position to move out rather then spending the next six weeks to "see how it goes" and "How we get along". This set me back and threw me a curve ball. Man, we just can't get on the same page! If I knew this last Friday that this is what she was trying to say, then I would have taken the apartment - no question. To me, money always some how finds it's way to work out (in my experience) and most of the time your never ready to take on additional expenses but you find a way to make it work which is why I would have left.

Anyway, we continued our convo and I said getting my own apartment (after 6 weeks - Not really sure how 6 weeks makes that much of a big financial change knowing it aint that bad of a financial situation) could be the right thing to do, but could also still backfire knowing that I will be incurring more expenses regardless of when I do it (security, furnish it, possibly having to buy-out the lease if things work out 3 months into it, etc.) 

*OR*, Stay put, giving the next 6 weeks to continue to do our own thing (separately), give her space (as much as I can to stay out of her way), keep myself occupied by continuing to go to the gym, eat right and be with my son and re-evaluate the situation (at some point) knowing nothing may come out of it and having no expectations along the way.

She suggested this...for now, why don't we just stick with the possibility of by the end of May I move out, still go to psychiatrist tonight and mention all of these things to see what the psychiatrist says and we can take it from there.

We also discussed the possibility of me asking my cousin if it would be ok to stay with him for now (a few months), give her 3 months to clear her head, pay him to stay at his place without having to incur all the expenses of signing a lease, security deposits and furnishing a place. Then seeing how things play out. 

Does this make sense? Stay? Go? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks everyone.


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## chocolategeek (Mar 8, 2012)

You're welcome, Coachman. We're all here to support one another. I totally understand what you mean by savoring the last bits of intimacy. Sigh. Also went through that during our separation. But it's good that you've cleared your thoughts and know that if our spouses aren't fully committed to working on the marriage, then it ends there. No amount of reasoning with them or begging will change their minds. Down the road, when they wake up to the harsh reality of losing us, that's when they might decide they still want to be with us. But we can't wait for that day. We have to tend to our Selves because no one's going to do it for us.

Hope I see that check in my mailbox tomorrow! Heheh! It's nice that we can still laugh here. A good sense of humor does wonders for the soul.


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## bippy17 (Mar 20, 2012)

My cousin is open to me staying with him temporarily but wants it only to be temporary. I do at some point have to fully move on and get settle and if something changes for the better so be it.

However, he said to be quite honest he's a little pissed that we all have to adjust our lives (me moving in with him) to see if by giving her 2-3 months to clear her mind proves one way or another if there is anything left in our marriage.

I know getting my own place is probably the right answer. However, I want to see (for the sake of our marriage and my 7yr old son) if time heals us. \

I'll pray and keep the faith.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

And why is she not moving out... or at least the possibility being discussed?


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## ghgh45 (Jul 11, 2012)

Folks, I don't know if your set to receive new posts when someone posts but thought I would try.

I've read through all the pages here and thanks to all because it has helped me. I'd like to tell you my story but wanted to see if the post (and Coachman, Chocalate, etc.) was still active.

Many thanks


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

ghgh45 said:


> Folks, I don't know if your set to receive new posts when someone posts but thought I would try.
> 
> I've read through all the pages here and thanks to all because it has helped me. I'd like to tell you my story but wanted to see if the post (and Coachman, Chocalate, etc.) was still active.
> 
> Many thanks


Still here... Feel free to post 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

coachman said:


> Still here... Feel free to post
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm out of lumber. So, you're safe.... for now.


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## ghgh45 (Jul 11, 2012)

Ok, here goes. I'm from a dysfunctional single parent (mom) family w/physical and verbal abuse. I say that just to set context of some relief I may feel and for folks to understand.
My wife of 24 years has says she wants to stay in same house for kids (I do to) but seek her soul mate. She told me 5 days ago.
First, crushing, guilt, alone, damaged, etc. all what I feel.
Second, she has every right as I have never understood (until now) what it meant to truly love someone with everything. I always held out, weather it was lying about finances (so I could buy what I wanted) or not listening to a 100 cries for help.
Don't get me wrong, she was right there in many cases, but at the end of the day I was acting like a child always pushing, wanting my way, thinking every argument was just a positioning exercise to get something else.
And boy did we argue (scream). Her point was that I always took it personal (which I did) by calling names.
I am now hurting in ways I did not see possible. Gut wrenching. However, I guess the silver lining here is that I am a different person even as I wright this post. I am the soul mate she wants.

Sorry for the continuous text but as one person put it, it just comes out, brain doesn't compose well these days.

Oh my gosh, all that and...... we have 3 wonderful children. That and a level of finances is why we feel best staying in the same house.

I have wanted to apologize for all the mean things I did, when I wrote the list I was so ashamed over so long that I'm not sure how a reasonable person could even listen. Unless you were a paid therapist.

We have went on a date and it went well. Should I do others. I have read the 180 Healing Heart and it seems really rationale but then I wouldn't be doing some of the things I am doing now. I say I love you, I peck her on the cheek, etc. How do I show I understand and have changed unless I do those things. Many posts say you just can't because she is not in a space where she can here them. I think I believe that. Nothing worse than a lip kiss being turned to a cheek peck by her. Ouch.

All I have for now. Thanks for reading. This forum has helped me.


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## loki1954 (Sep 23, 2013)

I know exactly how you are feeling. and it is not easy for you... i am in the same boat, but like you, i will not be given the chance to prove that this woman means everything in life to me.

I just got the "I don't love you anymore", bang.. also I don't want to hurt you, and i am sure you know the kind of horrible pain that i am talking about.... i find it difficult to see light at the end of the tunnel.

The evenings are surreal, my little mind pretends that things will be okay, when the reality is that i will never be given that chance.

Know this, there are people that are suffering as you are, and feel such sympathy for your pain. Take care of yourself.


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## ghgh45 (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm revisting the site after a little over a year. Divorce is final now and I have begun a new life. My Ex and I are still in a good relationship but each recognize that life as it once was together is no longer. For me it was painful at first but now having weathered that storm and started a new life I am much happier than I knew I could be.
My children are healthy and have moved through things very well. A good relationship with my Ex has helped that. I am in a healthy relationship after dating for a while. The largest change for me was redefining myself, my priorities and my relationship with my children.
As I look back it is amazing to me that we stayed married so long. I suppose that's true for many. Now being divorced it's funny to me that I would not choose to go out with my Ex if her twin were somehow introduced to me. Very telling and interesting.
Oh well, this site has helped me so I wanted to perhaps give some hope to those that are moving through the same things. There is light at the end of the tunnel for any situation.

All take care !!


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