# Physical touch - I need permission



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I have always noticed this about myself, but was thinking hard about it the other day. I simply CAN NOT come into physical contact with another person unless I seem to have express consent.

With my son it's different, I have no issues with personal space with him, and in the few relationships I've had when things were going well I also seemed to feel I had permission to initiate physical contact. Once I have that permission I am not only perfectly comfortable I actually enjoy it in a natural way. The last year or two, I lost that with my W - I noticed when I touched her she would avoid it, defend from it and act disinterested and I think it was a large part of that bond breaking for me.

But with someone new, different I simply can't, and rarely ever had, allowing myself feels the same as if I were to cut off my own finger.

If someone stumbles near me I just completely back away, I have heard it said that when engaging with a woman touch is a show of attraction, well there have been times I would love to but my mind just cannot wrap around it - there is no natural feeling way for me to have ANY kind of physical contact with someone new, especially if I'm attracted to them and like them.

It is a completely beta behavior and I hate it, it's like I'm a trained dog.

How does a person get past that? I doubt I ever will, this has been my way my whole life. I guess I should read more No More Mr. Nice Guy and the breaking free activities...


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Awww, Lon. This made me sad. Well, of course you have that reaction if your W acted that way.

I think it will take a loving, welcoming partner to help you get over this.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Lon, you probably fear rejection, and so you wait for a signal that your touch is welcome. I wouldn't worry about this. When the right woman comes along, she will reach out to you. She will be intrigued by the challenge of your perceived coolness, and want to see what is behind that Canadian exterior.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You say you've been this way your whole life. Do you know why? I do this but it's because I was raised in a non touchy family. I can do it now but only with people I trust like my kids and my loving husband. Everyone else forget it. I don't want to touch and I don't want to be touched.

I'm not a hugger. 

I guess I don't see why this is a bad thing.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> You say you've been this way your whole life. Do you know why? I do this but it's because I was raised in a non touchy family. I can do it now but only with people I trust like my kids and my loving husband. Everyone else forget it. I don't want to touch and I don't want to be touched.
> 
> I'm not a hugger.
> 
> I guess I don't see why this is a bad thing.


My family wasn't very touchy, but there were hugs and kisses good night when I was a young kid. Then for some reason when I was like 11 or 12 me and my bro both stopped wanting kisses, but we still got hugs.

Thing is I am definitely a hugger now (when I have someone in my life I can give a nice long cuddly hug to). My family also rarely say "I love you's" but in my relationships with women I've loved and my child I dole the I Love You's out readily and I mean it. In fact I ONLY say it when I mean it.

I am very touchy feely and I NEED it, it is my biggest love language I think. There have been phases in my life where I literally have gone YEARS without the physical contact of anyone except a handshake here or there, or a hug from mom or grandma. When my LTR with highschool girlfriend ended it was almost 4 years before I had another relationship and during that time I had only one date - the girl sat on my lap on a pub crawl and it felt comfortable (cause we were all drunk) but nothing happened that night, she tried to get me drunk at her apartment once again but I was such a chicken I didn't pursue it (though wanted to). So that sums up my entire love life of my 20's basically. Two exes and one would be, and years of feeling unloved simply from lack of touch.

One time some buddies and I all crammed into a car to head out to the beach and it was crowded, my leg was in contact with one friend most of the way there and I was excrutiatingly aware of it the whole time, longest car ride ever.

Yes there is a pretty big fear of rejection for me, I'm very conflict avoidant, my dad is an alcoholic but never abusive in any way, I always thought he was the greatest dad ever, it was only later in life I realized how selfish and neglectful he could be. I was bullied bad in primary gradeschool and I'm pretty sure that is what hardened me up and make me guard my emotions.

I think it is more than just fear of rejection it really is like a beta trait, classical conditioning or something.


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

I can relate. I was raised in a totally non-touchy family. No hugs or touch at all past the years when we were very little..like toddlers. Also no one ever said "I love you", not ever that I can remember. I can be near people now but it is something I am aware of (like you and your friend's leg), and I have to consciously resist breaking contact. Even with my kids and husband, I would prefer to choose a seat across the room rather then being close on the couch. 

It is really hard to get over early conditioning. I think you can go through the motions, but I don't know that it ever becomes second-nature. ??


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I’m always touching people, sometimes complete strangers. I had one guy, a complete stranger ask me if I’d give his blind elderly mother a hug! In Portugal there just isn’t the reserved nature there is in England. The Portuguese personal zone is practically zero! It took some getting used to. Every time someone came in real close I’d move away and we’d kind of dance around the room in that way. Even the young woman in the bank when accompanying me to the door walks besides me shoulders touching as though we are lovers!


Break through your barriers and just do it. Hasn’t got to be a hug! A touch on the shoulder or arm is ok. Here it ALWAYS comes back and it’s a complete joy.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Break through your barriers and just do it. Hasn’t got to be a hug! A touch on the shoulder or arm is ok. Here it ALWAYS comes back and it’s a complete joy.


Well like I say it is the same kind of feeling stopping me from being able to as whatever it is that stops me from jumping off the ledge of a building or cutting off a finger. I guess its a bit of a phobia, and perhaps the solution is deconditioning myself by just touching people and hoping not to 1) puke on them from my lack of nerves 2) get a restraining order against me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Lon said:


> the solution is deconditioning myself by just touching people and hoping not to 1) puke on them from my lack of nerves 2) get a restraining order against me.


I have no desire to touch people but I agree with just going for it. Face your fears. KWIM.

On #2 I can definately help you with. Learn to read body language. It's actually quite easy. If you met me in real life you'd know in 5 seconds NOT to touch me. My arms are crossed, I will maintain personal space, etc. 

However if you did hug me I'm not going to retaliate in anyway. All you're going to get is a stiff body. LOL But it wouldn't be personal or a rejection of you in anyway. I just don't like to be hugged unless we're in a relationship. Then I'm perfectly fine with it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What you are describing is fear. Fear is something we are taught, or we experience.

So look at the bright side. You can unlearn it and discover what you already know; touch is extremely important and extraordinarily powerful.

It's a way for you to convey strength and confidence, caring and compassion, or love and joy.

Figure out what it is ... and get past it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Have you ever been for a massage? I wonder if there's a way you could get used to receiving touch, in a non-sexual way, and as a realization that it's to connect your own mind/body as well as receive the touch from the therapist without any expectation other than receiving a professional massage? You could just start with a 30minute back massage to get used to the idea if you haven't been before.

I'm the type that gives big hugs. Last night I saw some friends I haven't seen in a long time. We were excited to see each other. I gave her a big hug, then my guy friend just about bowled me over with a hug. To me, that type of touch is an expression of joy and gratitude to be in each others presence. I didn't grow up in a touchy-feely household but it's the way I am. I was introduced to one of their friends and although I felt myself instinctively wanting to hug them too (as a welcome), their body language indicated they liked their space and so I held back.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you do need to read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book. Also visit the forums on the nomoremrniceguy.com website. Lots of good support over there.

I too am very much a Touch love language person. And I don't like touching other people or being touched except in sterile situations like shaking hands in a business setting.

For me I came to the conclusion that it is because touch to me is an expression of love, and so I am not comfortable with a casual friendly touch. Sort of like a kiss on the lips would be out of place in that situation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Heartsbeating said*: Have you ever been for a massage? I wonder if there's a way you could get used to receiving touch, in a non-sexual way, and as a realization that it's to connect your own mind/body as well as receive the touch from the therapist without any expectation other than receiving a professional massage?


 This is a great idea for starters... I know a man who pays $40 for 1 full hour of massage and she comes into the home, brings her table & everything, the wife pays for it. Need to look into something like that. 

I don't feel No More Mr Nice Guy is enough here, the conflict avoidant part is very Beta, but not so sure about the rest... This is FEAR due to your past experiences, it has worked itself into a phobia... you feel shame, you can not allow yourself to be vulnerable in this way due to excrusiating fears of rejection... you have built a wall so noone can touch you = hurt you. 

It DOES all make sense given what you say here:



> *Lon said:* Yes there is a pretty big fear of rejection for me, I'm very conflict avoidant.....
> 
> ..... I was bullied bad in primary gradeschool and I'm pretty sure that is what hardened me up and make me guard my emotions.


 There is a book called "Feel the Fear and do it anyway". Alot of valuable truth in that sentence. 

Coming into loving yourself, finding yourself worthy to be loved... this is what is needed deep within... *feeling you are worthy to be TOUCHED by another*...in this case. These subjects are so difficult to talk about cause they go so emotionally deep--and it makes us vulnerable to even put this out there to another.... but as I just read today in this book (below).... it is something that can not be avoided or take a short cut.....it has to be Trudged through.... all the hard stuff that makes our stomachs churn . 

This is the Shame/ Vulnerability / Connection researcher.... her stuff is well.... the most insighful I have ever come across.... 

This is the book I am reading >> The Gifts of*Imperfection - Books - Brené Brown

A couple videos of her speaking about these issues, to deal with our fears, our shame -is what leads us to loving ourselves & finding ourselves worthy to be loved ... 

THE GIFTS OF IMPERFECTION: LIVING WITH COURAGE, COMPASSION AND CONNECTION 

Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability 

Also it would help to find an understanding -yet Aggressive woman in the touch sense. (Sorry I am taken Lon!) 

I feel so much can be overcome if you are matched with someone who you can truly be vulnerable with...you feel that freedom....who you can trust, who won't take your insecurities & beat you over the head with them. This happens much too often in relationships...which further stunts us, shuts us down. 

I hope you don't think I got too far off the subject... what I am talking about is the "roots" of so many of our emotional hang ups..... freedom in touch is just one of many.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> Have you ever been for a massage? I wonder if there's a way you could get used to receiving touch, in a non-sexual way, and as a realization that it's to connect your own mind/body as well as receive the touch from the therapist without any expectation other than receiving a professional massage? You could just start with a 30minute back massage to get used to the idea if you haven't been before.
> 
> I'm the type that gives big hugs. Last night I saw some friends I haven't seen in a long time. We were excited to see each other. I gave her a big hug, then my guy friend just about bowled me over with a hug. To me, that type of touch is an expression of joy and gratitude to be in each others presence. I didn't grow up in a touchy-feely household but it's the way I am. I was introduced to one of their friends and although I felt myself instinctively wanting to hug them too (as a welcome), their body language indicated they liked their space and so I held back.


I have "considering getting a massage" for awhile (like a couple YEARS, lol) and I think my reluctance is definitely in part to the fear... however in "clinical" type settings like the doctors office, eye exams, dentists I settle in pretty quick - I don't think it is a massive phobia for me - when I am around someone that is slightly more than receptive to a hug (my ex inlaws I still hug when I'm there with my son) it is all so natural and I feel the love and joy just like you describe heartsbeating... I have also come up with other excuses to put it off, like "there are so many to choose from how do I select the right one" and "I don't know if I'm more comfortable with a female or male therapist".

it really depends on me giving myself permission which, when there is no ethical conflicts involved, I seem to hinge almost entirely on getting permission from the receiver. and the instant I recognize that there is consent all fear, shame and trepidation completely and instantaneously disappear and vaporize. When someone open their arms to embrace I don't hesitate, I'm just never the one to open my arms first (except for my son and when I was with my W).

The shame/vulnerability/fear aspect of it that SA mentions is definitely a very effective conditioner - the thing is I could trudge through it but I know for a fact that when I do I will feel awkward and uncomfortable and will send out those same vibes. And of course, aside from my own submissive behavior there is also the golden rule that is ingrained in me - and since I am uncomfortable with any kind of touch that could be perceived as inappropriate, I certainly have convinced myself to not take any kind of risk in this kind of situation.

I'm all for tackling fears head on, but I sense that this submissive behavior is more than just fear. I suppose "experimenting" with touch more openly is something I need to do to figure out how to get over this.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Interesting, maybe it can be a cultural thing too

Like for instance, during my childhood there was a certain 'street culture' and the 'bro hug' and hell if we can hug our bros it's unthinkable to ask for permission to hug (or... hehe) our females

Just get drunk =/
You'll be fine


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Assuming there hasn't been exposure in your childhood of a scenario whereby someone close to you felt they were inappropriately touched, then my thought taps into the lines of deejo and SA, and that is that _giving_ and _initiating_ touch, to express love, compassion and intimacy .....takes vulnerability on your part. 

I am going to reveal a detail about one of my 9 lives. And that is, I was once a remedial massage therapist. Over those years, not every client greeted me with a skip and a smile and a feeling of "I can't wait for a massage!" Some were extremely nervous and anxious. Part of my job was to help put them at ease and understand why they might feel that way. I remember a client brought her daughter to see me, who was about 18/19 and was self conscious of her back due to a condition she had. While her muscles were benefiting from the treatment, the main reason she was there was that she hadn't let anyone (besides her mother) see her back in years, let alone touch her. The daughter wanted to do this for herself. She was at her most vulnerable. I usually draped one towel at the hip and covering the legs, and started with another towel over the back so the client was fully covered to begin - just as a way to initially connect through breathing and movements over the towel. Once their breathing was calm, I would remove the towel on their back so just the one that covered them from their hips down, remained. With her however, instead of removing the towel that was on her back, I kept it over her but just exposed her shoulders to begin. Once she became comfortable with that, I folded the towel back further. By her third session, she didn't need the gradual approach with the towel. She was already getting used to the idea that someone else was seeing her back, accepting her as she was, and allowing herself to accept that. 

Some clients had slight physical disabilities they were self-conscious of. Others had emotions they were self-conscious of. I had a client who hadn't been able to cry since the death of her boyfriend. He was on vacation overseas when he was killed in a bombing incident. She was self-conscious that she couldn't release her emotions and at the same time was worried that she would in front of me. I explained what she might expect from the massage and 10mins into her treatment, she quietly began to sob. It was a 90minute treatment. She quietly cried the entire time. Another client was referred from a psychologist. He'd been the victim of an armed robbery. Gun held to his head. He had trouble sleeping and couldn't close his eyes during the massage. Normally soft lighting was used in the room but he needed it to be bright and initially couldn't lay prone on the table either. 

Vulnerability - and the strength to be vulnerable - is something that many struggle with even while facing it. 

It's my belief that being comfortable _receiving_ touch (while I understand this isn't a phobia for you), could be something to consider. Perhaps as a way for you to recognize that touch doesn't need to be feared. But then you will need to turn that around to become comfortable _initiating_ touch and perhaps reading body language as to whether the recipient is open or not. I don't know anything about the psychology involved, I just know from experience, the impact that touch can have on the mind and body.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Lon said:


> The shame/vulnerability/fear aspect of it that SA mentions is definitely a very effective conditioner - the thing is I could trudge through it but I know for a fact that when I do I will feel awkward and uncomfortable and will send out those same vibes. And of course, aside from my own submissive behavior there is also the golden rule that is ingrained in me - and since I am uncomfortable with any kind of touch that could be perceived as inappropriate, I certainly have convinced myself to not take any kind of risk in this kind of situation.





> *Heartsabeating said *: But then you will need to turn that around to become comfortable initiating touch and perhaps reading body language as to whether the recipient is open or not. I don't know anything about the psychology involved, I just know from experience, the impact that touch can have on the mind and body.


Well I know a guy who trudges ahead a little too much, he is single and well, he will hug women a little too openly, he has even been called into the Pastors office for getting fresh with women and needing to tone it down cause he makes them feel uncomfortable. 

So there is surely a line of "appropriate / inapproapriate" also to be in tune with, reading that body language. 

All about healthy boundaries. 

Love your Post HeartsBeating... you REALLY know of what you speak.... a woman of many talants!

Hey analyze me. I have never felt comfortable getting a massage from anyone. They did a Mops demonstration with a Massage Lady once... I think I was the only Mom who didn't want a sample of her massage...... I wouldn't care if it was a lady or a man, I just "feel" a little funny about it. It's not something I have ever had done. There was my chance, it was free, and I passed it up! This was about 4 yrs ago now. 

But obviously I am extremely touchy feely with my husband...and always hugging -kissing my kids... and have no reservations about anyone (family members) etc hugging me. I generally don't initiate those things unless I am comforting a female friend after a deep conversation & she literally needs a hug. 

I never liked clowns either as a child or wanted to sit on Santa's lap!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

There is a really big thing with “appropriateness”.

Where I am it’s very “Mediterranean” in culture. Us English can look extremely reserved and cold relative to the natives. Some of us, like me, adopt and adapt to it very well. I just love it. I’ve this great Portuguese neighbour, an artist and ex paratrooper. He’s helping me grow veg at the moment and has half my garden for his own veg. As two guys in our 60s we are not afraid to give one another the occasional hug. It’s a quick acknowledgement of a pretty deep friendship between two males.

With his wife, it is expected that when we see each other it’s pecks on the cheeks, because that’s how friends do it here!

But with the English it’s very different. For example there’s a group of us that play badminton, about twenty or so at a time. I would never give any of the men a hug and I’ve stopped doing the peck on the cheek thing with the women, even though some of them want to. I’d rather upset the women than their husbands who are watching!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lon,

My family was pretty unemotional growing up, and even hugs were rare. There was also sexual abuse in my past at times where I was between homes, and it made the whole subject feel sort of like you describe. I think that sometimes this type of childhood environment makes a person miss out on the things we learn instinctively about body language otherwise.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I've found ways to get past that "invitation" hesitation that you mention, at least for me, is to watch how they greet you. Where I live now, its pretty normal to shake the hand of any friend you haven't seen for a while, but mainly in the early part of a social friendship. The second time you meet someone, you can tell a lot about them by reading the way they extend their hand after you offer your hand for a shake. Whether they lean their upper body forward to extend, or move closer. Whether they turn the wrist to place their hand in yours. Try it. Often, the body language tells you all you need to know. I think that you have to become more comfortable with instinctively picking up on people's body language.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lamaga said:


> Awww, Lon. This made me sad. Well, of course you have that reaction if your W acted that way.
> 
> I think it will take a loving, welcoming partner to help you get over this.


No, he needs to work on it himself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Even just this morning, there is a new woman that started working in the office and we caught up at the curb waiting for the green light - I recognized her face and could read that she recognized mine, I nodded and said hi, she said hi back. We walked across the intersection together, I asked her how she is liking the job so far, then I introduced myself by name, and was, in my mind, desperately trying to pull my hand out of my pocket and offer it to shake but it was just glued in there, paralyzed. She replied with her name and I was just waiting and hoping she would extend her hand so mine would become unglued but there were no handshakes.

And as for HB's massage example, I completely understand about the healing powers of touch - with my ex it was one of the things I was so attracted to when we first started dating - she has an amazing healing touch, in fact it became frustrating because it as soon as her hand and attention was on me it would always just put me into a trance when she was trying to energize me... When she started her spa business I knew she would be succesful on the service end, her clients literally all loved her and I suspect it really is a powerful gift she has.

I was going to an osteopath for awhile for some minor little things, my ex W's suggestion though I was open to it, and I found the touch very intimate, I enjoyed it and the results but realized it was deeply emotional for me and also that I was becoming very attracted to the therapist and starting to have fantasies so I stopped going.

I am perhaps a little out of tune with reading body language - I'm pretty good at observing the interaction among others, just become so distracted with my thoughts when I myself am having that interaction. There was no sexual abuse or physical abuse of any kind in my childhood - though my ex and my old highschool gf both were determined that there must have been and that for some reason I'm repressing it... but honestly, no I have a very vivid recall of childhood memories from as early as 2 years old, which I'm sure have been colored over time but there is certainly nothing in my head that I recognize as inappropriate.

I am thinking that I'm just a really submissive person, and that submissiveness shows up most in initiating touch. When my son was born there was even a change inside me, like the submissive dial got cranked all the way. I know submissiveness is not supposed to be an appealing trait in a man, but I fear its the truth for me, I have some insecurities like anyone, and in my mind if you don't then you are a narcissist. I am also really confident in my own abilities, I do like who I am just find that I haven't really found a place in the world I fit right. I thought I had that before in my marriage, but now I have no clue. Problem with my submissiveness is that I have neither no idea WHAT I want to go pursue nor do I have anyone willing to kind of take the lead on it, so it really hasn't ever worked. My whole life I suspect I've been trying to resist the submissiveness because its the message from society and even on this website to a large degree. But now I'm wondering more and more if its something I need to embrace, and I do have a fear of losing respect by others if I take that path, nor do I see how I would go about that, especially as I've never met a physically attractive woman that would truly be able to handle that.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lon said:


> I am thinking that I'm just a really submissive person, and that submissiveness shows up most in initiating touch.


I think the feeling of being submisive might be the key. And how you equate the narcissism with touching. It's important, I believe, to be able to begin to see touching as an affirming act, or healing, at times. Seeing it as something you do for the people in your life. Like with this woman that you met today. Really, you don't know what she needed, or wanted in terms of a friendly gesture. But think about the power it could have in making her feel welcome in her new job if she was nervous. Putting it in the context of what you are trying to accomplish from the perspective of the other person can turn it into a simpler decision. She would view a simple handshake as a coworker reaching out to make her feel welcome. There's nothing selfish or narcissistic about it if your gesture is just as much about trying to make her feel a part of a new company as it is just getting to know her.

Think of what you are trying to accomplish with the subject of this thread. Its also about breaking down the barriers with the people in your life that keep you distant. Its not a selfish act when you realize that in most situations it is about "the relationship", and not just "what Lon wants", if that makes any sense.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I agree with your take on that Halien... as to submissiveness showing itself in my ability to initiate touch, I meant that in my personal situation that is the case, its not necessarily universal.

And I was equating narcissism not necessarily with touch but more so with having no insecurities, or atleast not acknowledging any, and I'd wager that a narcissist would have no reluctance initiating touch if that is what they wanted (though I doubt it would be at all about welcoming the coworker or putting them at ease).

Your last paragraph makes perfect sense to me, thank you for this comment!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon, seems to me you may be confusing narcissistic behaviour with gregarious (liking to be with other people) behaviour.

Gregarious: outgoing, sociable, social, extrovert, expressive, expansive, unreserved, companionable,

There really are people that like to get to know others for the pure sake of getting to know them!

You’ve obviously a deeply rooted dislike of narcissism (hatred?).



But if you believe that if you behave in a gregarious way that others are going to see you as a narcissist, something you seriously dislike then maybe that would explain your reticence about putting yourself out.




If you see and believe that gregarious people are narcissistic then I believe that to be a seriously big problem for you.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I believe this whole talk of narcissism is leading this conversation astray - I did not mean to really bring that topic up because it really has no bearing one way or the other. I understand the vast difference between narcissism and gregariousness they are two entirely separate things.

I hold nothing against gregarious people, in some ways I can be a little envious but mostly I just admire their ability.

as for narcissists I don't really know anyone that truly falls into that category anyway.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well I know a guy who trudges ahead a little too much, he is single and well, he will hug women a little too openly, he has even been called into the Pastors office for getting fresh with women and needing to tone it down cause he makes them feel uncomfortable.
> 
> So there is surely a line of "appropriate / inapproapriate" also to be in tune with, reading that body language.
> 
> ...


It's strange to me, now that I think of this, that I never actually 'analyzed' why someone may or may not like/be receptive to touch and massage therapy. 

I had people that couldn't wait to get on the table. I had people that wanted to, (like my examples) but had reservations. And I met a couple of people that just did not want to be touched. On the (rare) occasion I came across someone like that, I never tried to convince or analyze them. I just respected that's how they felt. And the reason those appointments were rare, was because someone who knows they don't want to be touched or feel the need to try it, won't book themselves in. It would occur when someone else booked them in on their behalf.

I remember a husband had booked his wife in for a massage as a surprise. He'd pre-paid and excitedly dropped her off. He kissed her goodbye and told her he'd pick her up in an hour. She looked bewildered. When he left, she told me she didn't like to be touched and really didn't want the massage. I accepted that. She phoned her husband to collect her. We chatted over herbal tea while waiting for him to arrive and then I refunded her husband. It was all fine. I never really questioned the why in those rare instances.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It can be a great deal to do with childhood. My wife’s family are just not the touchy feely type. I tried giving her dad a hug once, absolutely no response at all, bit like a lamppost. Her brother took his own life after which her mother tried to get “warmer” with her other brother, to give him hugs and a kiss. He said he felt repulsed by it. He was over fifty and it was the first time his mum had ever tried to hug him. He reckoned he would have liked it as a child and maybe then as an adult.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Lon said:


> Even just this morning, there is a new woman that started working in the office and we caught up at the curb waiting for the green light - I recognized her face and could read that she recognized mine, I nodded and said hi, she said hi back. We walked across the intersection together, I asked her how she is liking the job so far, then I introduced myself by name, and was, in my mind, desperately trying to pull my hand out of my pocket and offer it to shake but it was just glued in there, paralyzed. She replied with her name and I was just waiting and hoping she would extend her hand so mine would become unglued but there were no handshakes.


I'm curious as to why were you waiting and hoping she would extend her hand to yours? What do you think the handshake and touch would mean to you? In that instance, you'd already read her expression that she recognized you and then you initiated the contact (albeit non-physically), with a smile and hi. There was a natural flow happening. I wonder if your hand was 'glued' because it might seem unnatural to that flow?

I think we've all had that awkward moment at some point whereby we misread each others body language slightly. Not in a work setting, but socially, when one goes to just hug and the other expects a kiss on the cheek. And there's that weird moment where it doesn't align lol. I just laugh at my own awkwardness if that happens. I do seem to have awkward moments though so I'm used to it by now 

You stopped going to the Osteopath because the therapy was translating to your mind as a crush. I wonder if that is related to the fact that you have lacked both receiving and giving touch - and it's something that you want. Perhaps it's difficult to translate to yourself that touch can be healing without being intimate in an 'inappropriate' way? 



Lon said:


> I am thinking that I'm just a really submissive person, and that submissiveness shows up most in initiating touch. When my son was born there was even a change inside me, like the submissive dial got cranked all the way. I know submissiveness is not supposed to be an appealing trait in a man, but I fear its the truth for me, I have some insecurities like anyone, and in my mind if you don't then you are a narcissist. I am also really confident in my own abilities, I do like who I am just find that I haven't really found a place in the world I fit right. I thought I had that before in my marriage, but now I have no clue. Problem with my submissiveness is that I have neither no idea WHAT I want to go pursue *nor do I have anyone willing to kind of take the lead on it*, so it really hasn't ever worked. My whole life I suspect I've been trying to resist the submissiveness because its the message from society and even on this website to a large degree. But now I'm wondering more and more if its something I need to embrace, and I do have a fear of losing respect by others if I take that path, nor do I see how I would go about that, especially as I've never met a physically attractive woman that would truly be able to handle that.


Sounds to me that what you are really struggling with is taking the lead for yourself, in your own life. Are YOU willing to take the lead?

It's my thought that knowing yourself and what your strengths and weaknesses are, accepting them; is then when we become comfortable. To me, that is more the message I read when I see messages of 'being in control' on these boards. But hey, I acknowledge that I'm intruding into the Men's Clubhouse here but that's the impression I get. I don't think it's about being something you are not. It is about recognizing what you are comfortable with for yourself and then evolving and growing for yourself - in whatever way that means to you.

I'm also curious if there's someone you were close to that didn't show their insecurities?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

HB, I think you are getting close to the heart of it.

I definitely do not feel like I'm taking the lead in my life, nor willing to really, I'm quite happy to be in the backseat except at the moment there is nobody behind the wheel so it feels kind of upsetting in the same kind of way as this metaphor. It wasn't always like this - I've always been laid back but felt like I was able to point myself in the right direction all the time. It's really in the last few years, perhaps when my son was born and I've felt a huge burden of parental responsibility that I conceded the right to take control over my own life. I honestly feel like I have been just waiting for commands or instructions. Maybe I was looking to my ex as the one to take charge of defining parenting or the household, I gladly would have done whatever specific thing she asked but she refused to ask and instead just blasted with criticism, especially the things I was already putting in all my available effort. I found trying to figure out her needs, the needs of my child and my own needs mentally exhausting, and I burned out. Or maybe it is lack of religion, but honestly logic and reason won out over faith in my inner dialog, perhaps I just need to give in to a non existant diety and be happy like all those religious folk claim to be.

As to the handshakes and natural flow of things, i feel like I really do not understand the protocol at all. And it seems like I'm unable to learn from mistakes or continually improve at it. And it seems to me the longer it has gone on the less confident I've been at being able to make a decent guess at the protocol. Even tonight I was listening to some dance song about love and passion and I realized when I hear those songs it is always about others, like I'm excluded and merely allowed to witness the lyrics from an outsiders perspective.

I guess I've just felt like I need a little more external affirmation once in awhile - maybe my mind is interpreting that lack of self confidence as submissiveness or maybe it is the other way around. I just feel like when I was young I always had faith in having a future potential, and as I've gotten older feeling like I've been squandering it all away - I wonder of this is what a midlife crisis is, except more specific for the Robert Glover defined Nice Guy.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Lon said:


> HB, I think you are getting close to the heart of it.


I don't think I'm actually really doing anything. I'm reading your words, that's all. Read back yourself - maybe tomorrow. It seems a lot of it is there, you just need to listen/read for yourself. 

I will speculate that the focus on touch and body language is just something tangible for you to concentrate on. A way to pinpoint your feelings of an underlying tone that you're frustrated with.

As for feeling lost, taking a look at ourselves, and I'll throw the word "disillusionment" in for good measure too ...I'd say that happens to many of us. It's just part of growth. It's part of the journey. It seems to me, recognizing things about ourselves is perhaps the first step of many.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Well I did intentionally initiate some touch tonight, went for beer and wings and they didn`t supply any wet wipes, so my hands were sticky server said she`d bring a bowl of water. She was new and all alone and busy and I just decided to wash my hands in the restroom and on the way back I passed her, put my hand on her shoulder and told her to not worry about the bowl of water. I can't really tell how she received it, seemed sort of natural I guess, I'm still obviously overthinking it, she didn't seem to acknowledge what I said but ended up not bringing water so perhaps she heard (or just forgot).


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

Lon said:


> Well I did intentionally initiate some touch tonight, went for beer and wings and they didn`t supply any wet wipes, so my hands were sticky server said she`d bring a bowl of water. She was new and all alone and busy and I just decided to wash my hands in the restroom and on the way back I passed her, put my hand on her shoulder and told her to not worry about the bowl of water. I can't really tell how she received it, seemed sort of natural I guess, I'm still obviously overthinking it, she didn't seem to acknowledge what I said but ended up not bringing water so perhaps she heard (or just forgot).


Damn, I just typed up a long post to you, and lost it when the internet connection failed.

Good job. Let me tell you this from someone who has been there. From someone who was afraid to get on an elevator alone with a member of the opposite sex just 6 years ago....

People love "touch". As long as you're not "creepy, touchy, feely" about it, and the person has ANY inclination to think you're "okay", they will welcome it. I don't care if it's a woman in the elevator you've met a few times, or the guy you've had a couple beers with. We LIKE TOUCH. 

Strike up a conversation with a woman. Simple, easy. After a few times of that, when you see her, put a hand on her shoulder and say "hey, wow, it's been a while, how have you been?"

The guy at the bar? He says something funny, slap his shoulder and laugh. 

The woman you work with who you have had conversation with but haven't seen in a while? Throw her a "friend's hug" or a "business hug". Non-threatening, quick, and to the point. You WILL find that people respond very positively to this, and that "touch" instantly transforms you from "just someone I work with" to "a really nice guy / woman I know" or "work with". It opens up doors. Big doors. Maybe not as bad as the "touchy, feely, creepy guy" but no less socially approachable would be the "my god, he's strange and so hard to get close to" guy.

Touching someone, anyone, was so far out of my comfort zone after my terrible divorce and child custody battle, that I could not fathom it. I closed off so deeply within myself because of it, I could not even talk to someone. I mean, as I said, I could not even get on an elevator alone with someone. I would purposely slow down and make sure I didn't "catch the elevator" just to avoid being alone with a woman in one. If you saw me now, you'd think I was a lying son of a bitsh! 

If you're a good person, I don't care if it's a guy or a girl, they will respond favorably to your touch. And it will hasten the opening of doors you'd otherwise have spent who knows how long trying to "talk" your way through. Confident people are not afraid to touch. We all like confident people who are comfortable with themselves.

Go forth, touch, but don't be creepy! After a short time, it will seem second nature to you.

So sorry I could not explain that better. But trust me, you'll be glad you put this phobia behind you after you give it a try.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

"A man found an eagle's egg and put it in a nest of a barnyard hen. The eaglet hatched with the brood of chicks and grew up with them. All his life the eagle did what the barnyard chicks did, thinking he was a barnyard chicken.

"Years passed and the eagle grew old. One day he saw a magnificent bird above him in the cloudless sky. The old eagle looked up in awe. 'Who's that?' he asked.

"'That's the eagle, the king of the birds,' said his neighbour.

'He belongs to the sky. We belong to the earth; we're chickens.'

"So the eagle lived and died as a chicken, for that's what he thought he was."

"The Eagle Who Thought He Was a Chicken" | Jahiel Kamhi


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Bob, why the hate for chickens?

lol, j/k I understand your point, but who the fvck is going to teach the chicken-raised eagle how to fly? how does it get off the ground? That's what I'm trying to figure out.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ha! I chuckled when I thought about it the other way around, a chicken thinking it’s an eagle ….


A lot of these things are about getting outside our comfort zone. I’ve done it just about all my life. Outside my comfort zone is where I feel more alive, more aware. For example I’m currently living in a country where I know about 20 words of their language. A lot of people wouldn’t do that.


I think in some ways (looking at your photo especially) you’re a man waiting to be born. Does that sound crazy?


So really stretch yourself and do things outside your comfort zone. It’s how we learn about ourselves and many other things and it’s how we grow!


…. I always feared staying the same. Saw it as kind of a very slow death! Anything is better than that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would find an Adult Children of Alcoholics club near you and start attending.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

turnera said:


> I would find an Adult Children of Alcoholics club near you and start attending.


hmmm, interesting take on it... I've never really felt like my fathers drinking or behavior has had any kind of traumatic impact on me - I don't have a lot of negative feelings about it, I don't feel like I've ever really role modeled myself after him, never felt like I was much like him anyway, though possibly I've made choices to avoid being like him. I've always liked my father, slightly less when he's drinking more excessively than usual, but we've always been able to have good conversations about life, philosphy and all that non-touchy feely stuff. I have seen my mom as more of a role model and I can see that she has a lot of codependent traits, and I am a lot like her in many other ways, so I guess I'd fit the bill for codependency.

So I will admit that my upbringing probably plays a huge part in this, and perhaps there are others grown up in similar homes now with similar personalities. My brother, OTOH is very much like my father, and we've been distant from each other all our adult lives. He actually moved into my home last year, and we get a long but are not very close we do our own things, I relate to him even less than my father but I admire a lot of things about him - he is a nice guy too but you'd never know it to look at him, he is the outdoorsy rugged manly bushman, hunts fishes, smokes, drinks, does whatever he pleases but is very kind to others just like me, my mom and my father.

Perhaps I will pursue this avenue after trying a few other things to break free from some fears.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

His drinking changed the dynamics in your house. You will be amazed, once you go to a few of these meetings, just how much it affected you.


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