# How would you feel?



## norgie

Been married 18 years, two kids. First time poster.

My wife put our daughter on birth control pills and tried her best to hide this from me. My daughter spilled the beans by accident, so I don't really think she was worried or cared if I knew or not. I'm just kind of upset that my wife didn't discuss this or even at least inform me she made the decision. 

When I found out, my wife told me it was because daughter has bad cramps etc. Mentioned nothing about her being sexually active with her boyfriend. I also know the pill is not without its own potential complications. If it was just about cramps why hide it?

Wife also mentioned that on a previous check-up she was thinking about putting her on the pill. So this was considered for 2 years and still I find out indirectly and after the fact. 

Is this really something a spouse hides? How would you feel if your spouse kept you in the dark when it involved your child?


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## RandomDude

If ex did that I would go back to court for sole custody, but that's just me.

If daughter hid such a thing from me it'll break my heart, cause it means she doesn't feel comfortable confiding in me.


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## EleGirl

Your wife might feel that she told you two years ago when it was discussed as a possibility.

how old is your daughter?


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## SecondTime'Round

Hmmmm, well I gave my anxiety-ridden daughter 1/2 Xanax this morning and told her not to tell her dad, so I'm probably not the best example. My main reason for not wanting her to tell her dad is because I don't want him to ridicule me for having a Xanax prescription. I've had the same bottle of 30 pills since January. I'm not abusing them, but when the **** hit the fan and I was close to a breakdown, I was kinda hysterical on the phone asking for them.....anywho....

(Side note, she has Generalized Anxiety Disorder and despite a 504 that states she does not have to give oral presentations, she had to participate in a debate today.....unfortunately she won (and then sobbed her eyes out from anxiety so the Xanax did not even work) so she has to continue tomorrow  ). 

Birth control pills are not something I'd keep from her father. In fact, there is NO prescription that she'd be taking on a regular basis I'd keep from him. I think you have ever right to be upset.


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## SecondTime'Round

RandomDude said:


> *If ex did that I would go back to court for sole custody, but that's just me.*
> 
> If daughter hid such a thing from me it'll break my heart, cause it means she doesn't feel comfortable confiding in me.



I think that is a bit extreme.

Your second statement is understandable.


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## RandomDude

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think that is a bit extreme.


It would be a breach of trust for me, it may not lead to sole custody, but there definitely would be hell to pay


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## Holland

RandomDude said:


> It would be a breach of trust for me, it may not lead to sole custody, but there definitely would be hell to pay


No it would not lead to sole custody especially here in Aus. It is almost impossible to get sole custody, just ask my sister who has an AVO on her ex, he is abusive, has been put in gaol overnight, she has a DV advocate, he dumps the kids on her doorstep alone even when he knows she is not home, he leaves the kids alone at his house while he goes out drinking, the kids are under 12 and one has ASD, he pays no CS. Even she cannot get sole custody so sorry mate you would not stand a chance on this.

But to the OP yes I would be terribly upset about this especially in a one household family. You have equal rights and responsibilities as a parent.


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## RandomDude

At that point, I doubt I would care about the odds, nor did your sister when she went through the motions. Regardless I did not expect my comment to spark another debate, as my ex-wife and I have no designs on sole custody at present, it was more an expression to describe how pissed I would be however - if she had broken the trust that I've placed in her, trust that was built over many years.


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## norgie

Thanks for responding all.

Elle... My wife mentioned (after I found out about the contraceptive) that in her conversation with the doctor 2 years ago she considered putting my daughter on the pill. Never mentioned anything to me at that time. Daughter is 17. Yes... I know she doesn't need my permission to be on the pill or to get a prescription.

SecondTime... I'm sorry you have to keep a secret to help your daughter but I understand. I hope she continues to succeed in her debates. That takes courage.

Flower... I did ask my wife how she'd feel and didn't really get a good answer. She really wants everything (trys to make everything) revolve around her. She has to be the answer to all. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised I wasn't informed (at the very least)


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## RandomDude

norgie said:


> I did ask my wife how she'd feel and didn't really get a good answer. She really wants everything (trys to make everything) revolve around her. She has to be the answer to all. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised I wasn't informed (at the very least)


She has to be made aware that parenting ideally is a joint team effort if she wants the best for her daughter. I'm sure others can suggest some material your wife can read in this regard. 

For you however, may I suggest a trip to the men's clubhouse and look up some of the suggested reads on the sticky, there are some in regards to regaining your respect and authority in the household which I feel you also need.


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## norajane

norgie said:


> Is this really something a spouse hides? How would you feel if your spouse kept you in the dark when it involved your child?


More than anything, I'd want to know why she felt she needed to lie to me about it.

You two may have had a breakdown in communication and trust, and it may have been going on for a while. Or your daughter requested that she keep it to herself because she wants some privacy about it. Or...

I think the reasons for the lie are important to understand.


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## batsociety

When you say that she tried her best to hide it from you, what do you mean? Did she actually lie or did she just not mention it?

Perhaps your daughter requested that she kept quiet about it? I mean, it's kind of an awkward topic. Even if she's just taking it for cramps (like my daughter, also to keep her skin under control) there's that implication of sex, and no teenager really wants their parents to think about them in that way, especially not their dad. 

Or your wife wasn't sure if she wanted you to know? At 17 it's completely your daughter's business. It's up to her to tell you about it if she wants to, not your wife.


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## EleGirl

norgie said:


> Thanks for responding all.
> 
> Elle... My wife mentioned (after I found out about the contraceptive) that in her conversation with the doctor 2 years ago she considered putting my daughter on the pill. Never mentioned anything to me at that time. Daughter is 17. Yes... I know she doesn't need my permission to be on the pill or to get a prescription.


From the time my daughter was 16, I had no say about her medical care. Her doctors would not even talk to me with her approval.

The doctor put your daughter on BCP. Your wife has no say. Nor do you. (believe it or not). It could have been your daughter who asked her mother not to say anything to you. Most girls would be very embarrassed to talk to their father about this topic.

Are you really sure that you wife did something malicious? Or are you misinterpreting it and feeling left out? If your daughter is 17, in a few months you will have no say at all in her health issues.


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## Holland

RandomDude said:


> At that point, I doubt I would care about the odds, nor did your sister when she went through the motions. Regardless I did not expect my comment to spark another debate, as my ex-wife and I have no designs on sole custody at present, it was more an expression to describe how pissed I would be however - if she had broken the trust that I've placed in her, trust that was built over many years.


I get that Random, just saying that sole custody is an empty thought/threat.
Yes I would be pissed off with this situation though.


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## Holland

batsociety said:


> When you say that she tried her best to hide it from you, what do you mean? Did she actually lie or did she just not mention it?
> 
> *Perhaps your daughter requested that she kept quiet about it? I mean, it's kind of an awkward topic. *Even if she's just taking it for cramps (like my daughter, also to keep her skin under control) there's that implication of sex, and no teenager really wants their parents to think about them in that way, especially not their dad.
> 
> Or your wife wasn't sure if she wanted you to know? At 17 it's completely your daughter's business. It's up to her to tell you about it if she wants to, not your wife.


This. Sometimes kids want to know that they can have privacy or confidence with one parent. However even being a two household family if something this serious came up I would talk to my ex but preface this with it being between us. 

There are some things both parents should be on the same page about.


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## norgie

Thanks guys. Originally, I was asking how anyone else would feel about their spouse keeping them in the dark about medical issues involving their kid.



norajane said:


> More than anything, I'd want to know why she felt she needed to lie to me about it.
> 
> You two may have had a breakdown in communication and trust, and it may have been going on for a while. Or your daughter requested that she keep it to herself because she wants some privacy about it. Or...
> 
> I think the reasons for the lie are important to understand.


Yeah, I get that. You have to have communication to have it break down. So, I guess I understand the trajectory of this issue. 

Here's an example of what I get:

I work out of the house. For as long as wife and I have been together. Wife works 10 miles away at a company. 
For years I've picked up kids after sports practice at schools(s). Without fail (unless I'm on a business trip). One day, after practice, I'm sitting in the car waiting for my daughter to pick her up to go home. I see her... she waves... gets into a friends parents car and gets a ride home. 

At home, Daughter told me "mom said so-and-so will give me a ride home after practice". Seems my wife had a conversation with teammates mom a few days prior at a game and decided that since daughters play together... teammates mom can give my daughter a ride home. I always liked picking up my daughter because we could talk about stuff. 

Never mentioned to me that I'm not picking up my daughter at practice anymore. Wouldn't you think my wife would hesitate setting up a ride with someone else if i was already doing it? Nope. Nada. But very similar stuff happens to this day. Reg-u-lar-ly.

I think I'm finally coming to grips with being married to a very manipulative and less than honest woman. I've recently told her I feel our relationship doesn't have a solid foundation. Like the ground is always a little liquid under my feet. Manipulation, omissions, lies, redirections. 18 years and I think I'm starting to see a pattern. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Should I start a thread somewhere else?


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## SecondTime'Round

sargon said:


> Wow, there's something really wrong in your relationship if you keep such secrets from your husband, and even worse, you keep those secrets because he'd _ridicule _you for addressing your mental health issues.


Oh you have no idea. I'm moving out June 22. 

He's the reason I got the prescription.


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## Mr. Nail

For some reason this didn't surprise me much. If my wife and daughter went to a doctor for a woman thing they wouldn't talk to me about it, because it is girl stuff. I'm really educated enough to understand girl stuff but DW is a bit old fashioned on that point. At best my Wife would let me know over pillow talk.
MN


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## SecondTime'Round

We're a little different. My 14 year old wouldn't feel weird at all about talking about her periods with her dad. (Or with me). I'm sure he'd rather not hear details, but she's really open with both of us.

If it came to wanting BCP for sex.....she probably would not talk to dad.


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## norgie

Guess I was looking for someone with similar experience with their spouse. I felt I should at least know. How does being informed hurt anyone? It's not like I was going to forbid daughter from being on the pill. Or even let her know that I know. 

To whomever mentioned the girly stuff. Check your calendar... it's 2015... not 1950 

Being married makes me a partner. I can't think of anything I'd keep from my partner.


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## WorkingWife

I would be furious. I am skeptical of the "because of cramps" reason. (Are you aware of your daughter getting severe menstrual cramps?)

My instinct is that your daughter either is sexually active or your wife assumes she will be soon, hence the birth control pills. Why didn't your wife include you in this decision?

So my questions for you are: 
- Do you freak out at the idea of your daughter becoming sexually active where your wife would have good reason to want to avoid talking with you about it?

- Do you and your wife share the same views/values regarding your daughter and sex or is she more permissive here than you? 

- Have you been included in other information about your daughter's development - like when she first got her period?

- Does your wife often make then hide decisions you consider important but she minimizes?

Like I said, if I were in your shoes, I'd be furious. But if you do have a very strong reaction to the idea of your daughter becoming sexually active I can understand why your wife might want to hide it from you so she doesn't have to deal with that. I'm not saying that's okay, just that I understand the motive.

Otherwise I'd say it might be a "just us girls" bonding type thing, except it sounds like your daughter didn't think it was that big a deal. (I would have never talked with my dad about birth control pills though I took them as a teen.) And in general, I don't think it's okay for one parent to have secrets with the children from the other parent.


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## Fitnessfan

norgie said:


> Guess I was looking for someone with similar experience with their spouse. I felt I should at least know. How does being informed hurt anyone? It's not like I was going to forbid daughter from being on the pill. Or even let her know that I know.
> 
> *To whomever mentioned the girly stuff. Check your calendar... it's 2015... not 1950
> *
> Being married makes me a partner. I can't think of anything I'd keep from my partner.


There is still girly stuff in 2015.


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## joannacroc

Fitnessfan said:


> There is still girly stuff in 2015.


Some things, like being mortified at the idea of talking about periods, bad skin, birth control, or boys with your father, are timeless. 

OP, others asked if you were certain she HID it from you as opposed to just not thinking about sharing it. You didn't respond. Does that mean you don't know? I agree you guys need to develop a better line of communication if you are upset at this. Did you tell your wife it upset you? Did you ask her if she hid it deliberately? 

I'm not sure quietly fuming will accomplish much in terms of resolving this - though I totally sympathize as it's probably one of the things I did in my failed marriage. Sometimes it's easier than actually dealing with the issue. 

But the issue (your communication with and trust in one another) isn't going to go away so definitely schedule some quiet time with your wife when the kids aren't around and try and have a frank conversation about what went wrong and how it made you feel, and what you expect from one another when it comes to communicating about your daughter.


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## SecondTime'Round

WorkingWife said:


> I would be furious. * I am skeptical of the "because of cramps" reason. (Are you aware of your daughter getting severe menstrual cramps?)
> *
> My instinct is that your daughter either is sexually active or your wife assumes she will be soon, hence the birth control pills. Why didn't your wife include you in this decision?
> 
> So my questions for you are:
> - Do you freak out at the idea of your daughter becoming sexually active where your wife would have good reason to want to avoid talking with you about it?
> 
> - Do you and your wife share the same views/values regarding your daughter and sex or is she more permissive here than you?
> 
> - Have you been included in other information about your daughter's development - like when she first got her period?
> 
> - Does your wife often make then hide decisions you consider important but she minimizes?
> 
> Like I said, if I were in your shoes, I'd be furious. But if you do have a very strong reaction to the idea of your daughter becoming sexually active I can understand why your wife might want to hide it from you so she doesn't have to deal with that. I'm not saying that's okay, just that I understand the motive.
> 
> Otherwise I'd say it might be a "just us girls" bonding type thing, except it sounds like your daughter didn't think it was that big a deal. (I would have never talked with my dad about birth control pills though I took them as a teen.) And in general, I don't think it's okay for one parent to have secrets with the children from the other parent.


I would not be skeptical of this at all. In fact, I'm surprised that my 14 year old, who has had her period for 3 years, does not experience the horrific cramps/periods my twin sister and I did at her age. I'm GRATEFUL, but surprised she didn't inherit it. Some girls have really bad periods! (Mine were worse than labor. And, I was in 48 hours of severe back labor before an eventual c-section).


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## WorkingWife

SecondTime'Round said:


> I would not be skeptical of this at all. In fact, I'm surprised that my 14 year old, who has had her period for 3 years, does not experience the horrific cramps/periods my twin sister and I did at her age. I'm GRATEFUL, but surprised she didn't inherit it. Some girls have really bad periods! (Mine were worse than labor. And, I was in 48 hours of severe back labor before an eventual c-section).


I understand this and clearly remember a few incidents of lying on my back with my knees up rocking and crying with cramps as a teen. Knowing only what the OP said though, I am _*skeptical *_because:

1. Your teen daughter being put on BC pills seems noteworthy to me. Even if the reason is for cramps she's now on BC and could have sex w/out the consequence of pregnancy. How do you forget to mention that to your spouse unless you have a reason you don't want them to know?

2. "Those BC pills are *just* for my cramps." is kind of a popular meme these days. They _*are*_ prescribed for bad cramps, and this is pretty common knowledge now. I have seen this line on TV shows and I know of some younger people who give parents this reason for their BC pills when they are actually for BC.

I could be wrong but I would think they'd only be prescribed if the cramps were a pretty regular thing. And if her periods are regularly painful wouldn't her father be aware of that?

It certainly could be true, but it strikes me as odd that the mother didn't mention it regardless. Putting a teen on BC seems like a serious thing to me regardless of the reason.


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## norgie

OK. To clarify... 

1) I was never looking for my daughter to tell me directly she was on the pill.
2) I'm not quietly fuming, furious, freaking out or mad. 
3) Just kind of disappointed my wife felt she couldn't tell me or didn't want to tell me.
4) The way I found out is my daughter actually told me. A few days after her Dr appointment, she was pestering my wife to go to the pharmacy and pick up her "stuff". Wife tell's daughter to stop talking about it (never seen that before). Daughter keeps pushing it. Now... this is at 9:30pm... so I'm wondering what is so important that you need to pick it up right now... and you can't talk about it? So I asked this very question. My daughter told me point blank that she was on the pill and wanted mom to go get 'em like she promised. So I guess daughter didn't care if I knew. 
5) When my wife was asking my daughter to be quiet she looked uncomfortable... so I stepped in (to help her out) and to get my daughter of her back and to see what the big deal was. So yes... wife was trying hiding it. At least I see it that way. 
6) My wife told me that it was mostly for cramps. Daughter has a boyfriend for a year. Prom was in a week. I don't doubt the pill is for both reasons. But if it's a simple remedy for cramps? Come on!
7) Wife does decide... then hides or minimizes decisions she's made. Or just never talks about them. Thank you WorkingWife! I always find out things well after the fact. Which leads to frustration and resentment on my part. I go to my wife with issues so we can both work it out together and reach an agreement. She has never come to me with issues to work out. Funny how she'll always defend her reason for doing something (usually something that both partners should agree on before the fact) but can never explain or debate why something should be done before the fact. 
8) The pill issue just seemed to be the thing that made me step back and look at the landscape.. There's a history of manipulation, omissions, conflict avoidance, and flat out untruthiness. My wife is a good person. But I always feel like the ground is moving or there's no solid point of reference between us.


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## norgie

Fitnessfan said:


> There is still girly stuff in 2015.


You're right. But there is so much more on the table in this day and age.


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## norgie

sargon said:


> Stop being so oversensitive. This isn't about you.


Tool 
A person, typically male, who says or does things that cause you to give them a 'what-are-you-even-doing-here' look. The 'what-are-you-even-doing-here' look is classified by a glare in the tool's direction and is usually accompanied by muttering of how big of a tool they are. The tool is usually someone who is unwelcome but no one has the balls to tell them to get lost. The tool is alwasys making comments that are out-of-place, out-of-line or just plain stupid. The tool is always trying too hard to fit in, and because of this, never will.


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## SimplyAmorous

norgie said:


> *Never mentioned to me that I'm not picking up my daughter at practice anymore. Wouldn't you think my wife would hesitate setting up a ride with someone else if i was already doing it? Nope. Nada. But very similar stuff happens to this day. Reg-u-lar-ly.
> *
> I think I'm finally coming to grips with being married to a very manipulative and less than honest woman. I've recently told her I feel our relationship doesn't have a solid foundation. Like the ground is always a little liquid under my feet. Manipulation, omissions, lies, redirections. 18 years and I think I'm starting to see a pattern. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Should I start a thread somewhere else?


As a wife.. these sorts of things would *not* sit well with me....if my husband left me out in the cold, forgetting to tell me what 's happening with one of the kids.. change in plans..etc.. 

I am always on top of what is going on with our larger family.. the *who's*, *what* , *where's *.. *how's* and* WHEN*.. Heck I even let the kids KNOW where a sibling is.. who may be bringing them home.. we're very good at NOT missing anything.. as these things help on the smoother running of our daily lives.. Time is hard enough to find.. and stress abundant enough without adding to it! 

A large calendar hangs on our Kitchen wall that lists all activities, times, & changes if need be...with 5 left at home... if I screwed this up -we'd be a MESS & emotions would run high - with "Why didn't you tell me ..I wasted 30 minutes waiting there !".. time, gas, irritation.. that's not OK. 

With the whole birth control thing.. I would never go ahead without having a thorough discussion with my husband..in regards to our daughter.. Oh my YES!... I am one who never took birth control pills because I didn't like the side effects it listed. Myself & H used condoms after we married even... 

One poster here yrs ago lashed out at me telling me I was an irresponsible Mother if I didn't put my daughter on BC pills at age 15.. 

Some people feel strongly .. if 2 parents aren't on the same page.. it could be a war.. sounds in another year..it will be out of your hands. but for now.. you had a right to know what was going on.. 

No to mention.. it's a Good example for our kids to grow up seeing Mom & Dad keeping each other informed...it's more harmony...and less chance the kids will try to pit one parent against the other...things like that.. when you are a united front..


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## Somanylemons

I would probably be annoyed but not hugely annoyed.


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## turnera

norgie said:


> Been married 18 years, two kids. First time poster.
> 
> My wife put our daughter on birth control pills and tried her best to hide this from me. My daughter spilled the beans by accident, so I don't really think she was worried or cared if I knew or not. I'm just kind of upset that my wife didn't discuss this or even at least inform me she made the decision.
> 
> When I found out, my wife told me it was because daughter has bad cramps etc. Mentioned nothing about her being sexually active with her boyfriend. I also know the pill is not without its own potential complications. If it was just about cramps why hide it?
> 
> Wife also mentioned that on a previous check-up she was thinking about putting her on the pill. So this was considered for 2 years and still I find out indirectly and after the fact.
> 
> Is this really something a spouse hides?


That depends. How do you react when it comes to daughter things? MY husband grills my daughter inappropriately about female stuff or comments inappropriately or makes insinuations about her personality. So she has learned, and I have learned, not to tell him personal stuff about her. He is just not involved in girl stuff now.


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## norgie

So here's an update.

Had a discussion about this issue with my wife. Wanted to know her reasons for placing our daughter in BC... but more importantly wanted to understand the reason for not even – at the very least – informing me about something that has an impact on the health of our child. 

This was never about whether or not daughter was on BC. It was about my wife hiding something that concerned "our" child and then minimizing and directly lying about the reasons she made the decision. For those who brush this off as girl stuff or Daughter / Dad dynamics are missing the point. That was only context. 

So, in the conversation wife told me our daughter had bad cramps, etc. and this is the reason she allowed her to go on birth control. OK. So I asked my wife if she had knowledge of daughter and BF having sex. "I don't know... maybe" was her answer. So, you put our daughter on BC for cramps and you can't tell me? Yes. 

I explained to my wife that there was nothing i would hide from her when it came to our family, our relationship or anything that would affect us directly. It's never happened. And history would back this up. I also mentioned that her hiding, lying and manipulating had not gone unnoticed for the length of our marriage. It's just I never added everything up enough to recognize a pattern or to realize the effect it had on our marriage. At this point I can't accept anything else but honesty. If she felt the need to hide or minimize, lie or manipulate important issues between us then we don't need to be married any more. We can very easily divide everything up and go our separate ways and she can parent x days a week and I can parent x days a week and be happy with it. She could do what ever she liked with her life and never have to work with a partner to agree on issues or reach a common goal. 

Her response was that if she acts like this to me she must "not even be aware of it". My wife can lie to herself if needed.

So, I asked her again if she had known if our daughter was having sex and that this was the true reason for putting her on BC. She said that yes that she was... and yes she knew. Fine. That was the truth. All that.... just for a truthful answer. But we've been through this before. 

Some wise person once said "if you're going to do something, just do it right" The same can apply to honestly. "If you're going to answer a question to an important person in your life... might as well answer it honestly" or risk the fallout down the road. 

Turnera – Sorry you have to act this way with your husband. Sounds like he has big issues. If my wife had told me the info... I would have kept it between us. 

My wife also feels the need to be the center of everything. Always. I'm not sure if this has a relation or not but she's always held back info from me so she has the ability to make a decision or to decide something. Be the decider. On so many issues i'd shake my head and say "um... do you know you have a partner in marriage"? So... many... times.


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## dignityhonorpride

Fitnessfan said:


> There are definitely issues that my 16 yo daughter does not want me to share with her father. Most of these involved embarrassing issues, girly stuff and boys. I think it is important that a daughter can confide in a mother and know that it will go no further. I think it depends on the age of the girl as well. A 16 yo is going to college in 2 years and deserves some privacy in dealing with delicate issues. Many would go themselves to get bc without telling either parent if it was for sexual purposes so I find it a good thing she is able to confide in your exwife if it wasn't actually to regulate her period. If it was to regulate her period...I would have been horrified having my dad know anything period related or sex related for that matter about me as a teen. I do think medical decisions should be shared and discussed, I'm not sure going on the pill is one of them (depending on the age). I might even go as far to say that knowing you can discuss certain embarrassing delicate topics with one of your parents and feel safe in it being confidential outweighs the other parents need to know. Trying to think how I would feel if the roles were reversed, I think as much as it would bum me out if my daughter were to go to her dad with certain things and not me, ultimately, I would be happy for her that she has someone to talk to.


I wanted to chime in and agree here. I took BC for heavy cramps and lengthy cycles, and my dad didn"t know. I felt too awkward talking about anything puberty-related with him.


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## WorkingWife

norgie said:


> .... There's a history of manipulation, omissions, conflict avoidance, and flat out untruthiness. My wife is a good person. But I always feel like the ground is moving or there's no solid point of reference between us....


I hope it is ok to mention other websites regarding marriage from this forum... I want to recommend you visit the marriagebuilders.com website and look up:
Independent Behavior
and
The policy of joint agreement

And then talk to you wife about them. Her manipulations may be instinctual behavior she's not really aware of, or at least has not considered from your point of view. But they will definitely drain your love for her. (And you may be unwittingly doing things that frustrate her where she feels that behavior is her best option. Especially if it's getting worse and worse over time.)


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## norgie

WorkingWife said:


> I hope it is ok to mention other websites regarding marriage from this forum... I want to recommend you visit the marriagebuilders.com website and look up:
> Independent Behavior
> and
> The policy of joint agreement
> 
> And then talk to you wife about them. Her manipulations may be instinctual behavior she's not really aware of, or at least has not considered from your point of view. But they will definitely drain your love for her. (And you may be unwittingly doing things that frustrate her where she feels that behavior is her best option. Especially if it's getting worse and worse over time.)


Thanks WorkingWife... I'll take the time to read through the info you mentioned.

I fear you could be right about the "instinctual" behavior. She may well be telling the truth when she says she doesn't know she's lying about stuff. It's hard to believe and being on the receiving end isn't very fun. Drained is a good way to describe it. And just an unbalanced feeling that you can't trust your partner. But then again... this isn't imagined either. I know I can't trust her. And that hurts a great deal. 

I think it goes way back to her family (if you met them you'd probably see it instantly) or early relationships. About 8 or 9 years ago I asked her if she had problems with lying in previous relationships and did this cause problems in those relationships (Of course this was because it was becoming a problem with us). She told me yes with no great detail. Fast forward to present.... I asked her if she remembered the conversation... and she said no. Not sure she wants to deal with this or even cares to change it. But it's a problem. 

Thanks for suggesting the link.


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## WorkingWife

They also have some stuff about lies on that website too. There are different reasons people lie - to get out of trouble (I didn't wreck the car), so they can do what they want (I won't tell you about my bonus so I can spend it all on myself), to make themselves look better (I'm an astronaut millionaire), etc. 

Then there are the born liars. People who lie for absolutely no reason. What motivates them? Who the hell knows. They just lie to lie because they're lying liars and liars lie! Those people it's impossible to have a relationship with unless they change, and it's hard for those people to change because, well, they're liars. And liars lie! 

Based on this one omission it sounds like the type of lie one tells in order to stay out of trouble. It also sounds like an independent behavior - that's when you do whatever the hell you want with no regard for how it makes your spouse feel or how it affects them. A lot of people think that's perfectly fine to do in our culture. But it leaves the spouse feeling the way you describe -- you have no control over your life. This person is tied to you and they are just willy-nilly doing whatever they see fit and you have no say. You just get to wait and see what happens next... 

When my husband does that it makes me feel frustrated and hopeless. I literally feel the resentment physically in my chest and gut. And the thing is - like this BC for your daughter - it's not even always something I would object to if asked. I just want to be included in the decision making and have a say in my own bleeping life/family. But until someone understands the impact, they are usually very dismissive about it because they're doing what they want (so they're happy!) so what's the big deal? Just calm down and don't be such a control freak...


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## lglyn1

Your daughter probably felt embarrassed about having you informed of her decision to go on birth control pills. (I do know that the pill does help with the cramp issue.) Maybe your wife was being respectful of your daughter's request not to inform you. If that is the case, then your daughter shouldn't have spilled the beans. On the other hand, your wife needs to keep you informed of any meds your daughter is taking regularly in case of a medical emergency for your daughter that you have to deal with and your wife isn't present at the time.

I didn't want my dad to know about the female medical stuff when I was a kid either but if he had asked me directly what I was doing to prevent getting pregnant, I would have told him.


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## norgie

WorkingWife said:


> Based on this one omission it sounds like the type of lie one tells in order to stay out of trouble. It also sounds like an independent behavior - that's when you do whatever the hell you want with no regard for how it makes your spouse feel or how it affects them. A lot of people think that's perfectly fine to do in our culture. But it leaves the spouse feeling the way you describe -- you have no control over your life. This person is tied to you and they are just willy-nilly doing whatever they see fit and you have no say. You just get to wait and see what happens next...
> 
> When my husband does that it makes me feel frustrated and hopeless. I literally feel the resentment physically in my chest and gut. And the thing is - like this BC for your daughter - it's not even always something I would object to if asked. I just want to be included in the decision making and have a say in my own bleeping life/family. But until someone understands the impact, they are usually very dismissive about it because they're doing what they want (so they're happy!) so what's the big deal? Just calm down and don't be such a control freak...


This whole BC issue (one more lie) really opened my eyes to how long I've trusted my partner unconditionally. I'd always brushed off one-time lies as just that. But in truth, they've turned out to stretch the duration of our marriage. 

I think I've just reached my limit. Frustration, resentment, resignation is what I'm feeling now. And again... it's the cumulative effect of the lying and manipulation and the depth of it. Not this one time issue. I actually feel like I'm grieving! Like my marriage is dead or it's dying. And I've finally been told.

WorkingWife – It's very telling that your husband calls you the "control Freak" for wanting to be informed of decisions (or even.... gasp... being involved in making decisions!). I'd have to call the person excluding a partner from participating in a decision a "control freak". After all they are exerting complete "control" over the issue. They control the result.

It's a hard thing to do... to sit down and discuss an issue with your partner and to realize that at the end of the discussion you might not get all you want. That you might have to compromise your position a bit. But that's the teamwork of marriage. 

I'll have to start another thread.


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## Kitt

Disclaimer:not a parent.

I would feel deceived and not respected. I also think your wife knew your daughter is having sex with bf and felt shame surrounding it....afraid of your reaction. Perhaps this omission was the straw that broke the camels back and you just cannot take her lack of respect or lack of parental partnership. You aren't wrong in feeling upset.


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## EnjoliWoman

I have primary legal and physical custody of a 16y/o girl and after having light, although lengthy (i.e. two weeks or not ceasing entirely between heavier flows) I did put her on BC and I did tell her father. I knew he'd be fine with it because we had discussed it before even having kids - that we'd rather put our child on BC than have her risk a teen pregnancy. The first month didn't seem to help much but the second month she finally got more regulated. She is not sexually active yet and I do feel she would share that should the time come. Currently she hasn't kissed a boy.

I'm sorry your wife is lying and you had to go through such extremes to get to the truth. I can say I lied to my ex out of self-preservation due to his abuse and I wouldn't want a relationship like that ever again. 

Since it seems to be common for her and her family, it might just be a normal reaction for her. Either she'll have to try very hard to overcome it (suggest counseling?) or you'll have to realize this is her and it doesn't sound like that's an option for you.


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## Thor

norgie said:


> Is this really something a spouse hides? How would you feel if your spouse kept you in the dark when it involved your child?


No this is very bad to hide something like this. I nearly divorced my wife over a similar situation when she put our teen son on a med I had already made known I disapproved of. (I am not generally anti-medication, but very much opposed to this one specific med unless a last resort). I started the D process but other factors intervened (not relevant why). 

I would divorce my wife if something like this happened again.

Your wife hid it from you because she thought you would disagree, and she wanted to put your daughter on the med despite your disagreement. She cut you out of your right as a parent to make medical decisions for your minor child. You should have been part of the decision process before the med was given to your daughter. At the very least, but not good, would have been to tell you after the fact.

Your wife is in a better position to deal with the female issues with your daughter, but in this case of a prescription medication with many known side effects, some serious, you should have been part of the decision. This was not a life/death situation, nor is it a short term thing such as an anti-biotic. Some things such as anti-biotics are obviously fine for one parent to decide on, but I believe the other parent should be informed as soon as reasonably possible.

All of that is aside from your daughter possibly being sexually active. I am of the philosophy that there is very little a parent can do by the time the child reaches mid teens to deter sexual activity. Refusing to put her on the pill would not stop her from being sexually active if she otherwise wanted to be.


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## Yeswecan

norgie said:


> Been married 18 years, two kids. First time poster.
> 
> My wife put our daughter on birth control pills and tried her best to hide this from me. My daughter spilled the beans by accident, so I don't really think she was worried or cared if I knew or not. I'm just kind of upset that my wife didn't discuss this or even at least inform me she made the decision.
> 
> When I found out, my wife told me it was because daughter has bad cramps etc. Mentioned nothing about her being sexually active with her boyfriend. I also know the pill is not without its own potential complications. If it was just about cramps why hide it?
> 
> Wife also mentioned that on a previous check-up she was thinking about putting her on the pill. So this was considered for 2 years and still I find out indirectly and after the fact.
> 
> Is this really something a spouse hides? How would you feel if your spouse kept you in the dark when it involved your child?



I have two daughters. Birth control pills are normally prescribed for young women/women that have difficult menstrual cycles. I see nothing wrong here. Now, back to female stuff. Perhaps your daughter is a bit embarrassed and does not want you to know about her female parts. I know my W has talks with our daughters about the female body that they just will not share with good old dad. My W respects that and I do no ask. If it is something truly detrimental or my W needs my input she will discuss it with me. The hour or so birds/bee talk was conducted with my W. Dad was not a part but if asked would be. 

For me, sometimes mom/daughter talks/assistance remains between the two of them. I trust my W to making the right decisions. The reason is...if my W has any inkling that what she has advised to our daughter is wrong my W will consult me.

But between you, me and the lamp post my W would tell me about the BC pills before being prescribed. Even in confidence. Just the way she is.


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## WorkingWife

norgie said:


> WorkingWife – It's very telling that your husband calls you the "control Freak" for wanting to be informed of decisions (or even.... gasp... being involved in making decisions!). I'd have to call the person excluding a partner from participating in a decision a "control freak". After all they are exerting complete "control" over the issue. They control the result.


Just to clarify, my H does not call me a control freak. I'm the opposite of that and he knows (and appreciates) it. I was doing a general impression of the type of person who does a lot of independent behavior. Since I have started speaking up he has gotten much better about asking if I mind if he does certain things (usually buy stuff) but he still has a long way to go.

If you have always looked the other way and just accepted this treatment from your wife, maybe you can turn things around by letting her know you won't tolerate it any more. I need to start another thread too because I have trouble reconciling it, but I've noticed it is human nature for many to do as much as they can get away with. But then they are devastated when their spouse says "I'm done" and they suddenly claim to be willing to change.


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## One2One

Perhaps she never said anything because of how you would react? Did you react badly to her being on the pill or is it all because she didn't tell you?

It is a personal thing, perhaps the daughter didn't want you to know about it?

The pill can be given to help with stomach cramps and if she has a boyfriend it would make more sense if she's thinking of stepping to the next level.
Unfortunately if your daughter is at that stage in her life that she wants to have sex, there is nothing that you can do so it's best for her to be on the pill and take extra protection, something I'm assuming your wife has discussed with your daughter.

Have you had conversations with your daughter about her cramps etc?
My daughter wont discuss anything like this with her father.


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## luvinhim

Norgie, i am sorry for you situation and you should be mad. Your wife purposely kept this information from you because she knew your daughter is having sex. I think parent and child keeping a secret from the other parent is just WRONG. You are teaching your child that it is okay to tell partial truth to keep you out of trouble. I see that as a character flaw that will transfer into the childs marriage or friendships.

On to another point. I am reading some of these responses with my jaw to the floor. So many adults on TAM are adamant about being open and honest with a spouse when infidelity is concerned. Trickle truth is look upon with disgrace. We have folks placing VAR in vehicle to get to the truth of the matter. Tracing phone calls and checking phone bills to get the TRUTH. There are so many people who demand the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH, but when it comes to matters of money, parenting, extended famil and jobs some are willing to hide the truth from their spouse and find nothing wrong with it. WOW!!!


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## norgie

Thanks luvinhim,

You're right about a parent possibly teaching a child the wrong way to deal with issues by their own screwed up example. My wife is a crafty manipulator, can lie at will by omission, minimization, delaying and flat out untruthfulness. I got to a point early this summer where I had enough and called her on this manipulation / lying issue. She said "well... if I'm manipulating or lying I'm just trying to help... or I don't even know I'm doing it" Sure... I guess if you call a lier on lying that's what you get.

A family cook-out at my in-laws house last fall opened my eyes. I watched my mother-in-law approach my father-in-law while he was grilling food and he looked up and in a semi-angry voice said "will you stop trying to manipulate me"? No kidding. I kind of chuckled at this exchange at the time. I'm not chuckling anymore.


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## Marriedplustwo

Birth control can be a sensitive subject for a teenager. When I was 18 I got on it, but I hid it from both of my parents. I was so shy about it and terrified to tell them. Kind of embarrassing and a weird subject to talk about with my parents. I actually waited to go on it until I was 18 so I could get it myself. Cheers to your wife for being supportive of your daughter and them being able to talk about that. I did not feel I had that relationship with my parents to even talk about BC. I had a number of friends in the same boat. 

Maybe your wife thought you would feel uncomfortable talking about it and thought she'd spare you that awkward conversation.


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