# Wife decided to go to a bachelorette party



## jai_mann

So I'm new here. I'll search the threads for similar cases after I post my situation.

I've been married for just over 2 months. I've been with the same lady (30 years old) for the past 8 years. She's always been faithful and generally forthright (sometimes I have to pry things out of her). She's in psychiatry. My own background is in psychology with an emphasis on behaviorism. So, clearly, even the supposed experts have their issues...

I've made myself pretty clear on what I feel are failing standards in society and the promotion of degeneracy via the media. My wife has been hearing this for several years now, as my concern for society and youth grows. And yet, she decided to go to a bachelorette party two nights ago, when she knew a male stripper would be there and that I absolutely frowned upon these things.

In the morning, when she came back, she tried "getting close" to me while I was sleeping, and she never does this unless she wants to make love. I was exhausted and furious with her for going to that thing, when she had the opportunity to leave after dinner and a club, but instead, she went back to the apartment where this guy shows up.

She has had the nerve to tell me that I didn't need to know the details of what happened with her there, and she has repeatedly lied about the entire experience, which initially went from, "I didn't know there would be a stripper there until we left the club" to acknowledging that it was in the invitation which she left up on our desktop. She was clearly excited as it would be "real bachelorette action".

She initially lied and told me the stripper didn't do anything to her. But I got a confession out of her that she had put on a bikini top beforehand, which was clearly for skin contact. And eventually, she indicated that he had rubbed his genitals on her back (he had a thong on, big whoop). Obviously, after much teeth-pulling, I got more facts, and I don't think that I've heard the last of it.

She claimed that it was awkward, horrible, and disgusting, but I pointed out to her that if this was the case, she could have left at any time. She willingly went along with all of this. She's sorry she got caught, essentially, but not sorry about what she did. Again, she had the nerve to come home to me all stimulated and wake me up in the morning. I'm completely disgusted with her and I've told her that she has crossed a line that I don't know if our marriage will withstand.

I'm planning on seeing how truthful and honest she is regarding the issue further, mainly to see if she is willing to attempt to rebuild my trust by telling me what happened (and if I'm further outraged by her actions, I'll know if I even want to try to salvage this thing). I've been calm and analytical with her, which has made her lies transparent.

I honestly don't know if I can repair things as the wound is deep and my trust is damaged to the core. I am willing to give more information if people ask as I'm really here to get feedback from others and to try to cope with having my heart broken by the girl who I once thought was so virtuous.

Please feel free to comment or ask questions. 

Thanks in advance, as I have yet to speak to anyone else about this. Part of me wants to get her to talk to her parents about it with me present, as we are supposed to have a delayed wedding reception with my folks on the east coast. I don't want to create resentment, but she's very clearly been disrespectful and untruthful to me. She said a number of times before I got the more graphic information out of her that I was making a big deal out of nothing. She knew how I felt about that sort of thing, and she spent July 4th back with her ****ty friend who is the bride-to-be, and that friend was telling her the same thing (some friends and I pity the future hubby).

Enough for now. Comments are appreciated...


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## unbelievable

Your wife is a responsible adult. You've known her for eight years. She's perfectly capable of going to see male strippers or securing any other form of male attention whenever it suits her. She apparently decided to marry you instead. She was invited to a bachelorette party, and for whatever reason, she accepted the invitation. 

The sorts of foolishness you described, whether they are your cup of tea or not, are typical of bachelorette parties. If you are invited to a bachelor party, you won't be playing checkers there. Let your wife be an adult and trust that she will be a responsible and faithful one. 

If her devotion to you isn't enough to keep her from straying too far, any commandments you hand down from the mount won't help, either. She got in the mood and then she brought it home to you. 

If you have the number of that stripper, I'd like to send my wife to see him.


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## jai_mann

unbelievable said:


> Your wife is a responsible adult. You've known her for eight years. She's perfectly capable of going to see male strippers or securing any other form of male attention whenever it suits her. She apparently decided to marry you instead. She was invited to a bachelorette party and for whatever reason, she accepted the invitation. The sorts of foolishness you described, whether they are your cup of tea or not, are typical of bachelorette parties. If you are invited to a bachelor party, you won't be playing checkers there. Let your wife be an adult and trust that she will be a responsible and faithful one. If her devotion for you isn't enough to keep her from straying too far, any commandments you hand down from the mount won't help, either. She got in the mood and then she brought it home to you. If you have the number of that stripper, I'd like to send my wife to see him.


You see, this is my problem. It is not faithful of her to have a male stripper rubbing his genitalia on her, or for her to come home horny, waking me up.

Faithfulness is more than simply physical contact. It involves psychological aspects as well. 

Is there some reason why you fail to address the facts that she lied through her teeth to me regarding this incident, and that she went to this incident knowing full well that I did not approve?

This notion of people being able to go see strippers is not some thing that every one agrees upon as a matter of values. Clearly, your values differ from mine. This issue at hand here is not what you think is okay, but what I think is okay, as I am her husband and your standards are not my standards. 

Don't treat me as if I'm naive about those parties either. I find your tone condescending and non-productive.


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## F-102

I think you are WAY over reacting. It was a bachelorette party, not a swingers party. Yes, the male rubbed his junk on her, but these strippers are working for tips-they will pull out all stops. Of course your W didn't leave-nobody wants to bee seen as the buzzkill at these things. If it were a bachelor party, and a stripper showed up, would you have the nerve to walk out?


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## fredless

jai_mann said:


> You see, this is my problem. It is not faithful of her to have a male stripper rubbing his genitalia on her, or for her to come home horny, waking me up.
> 
> Faithfulness is more than simply physical contact. It involves psychological aspects as well.
> 
> Is there some reason why you fail to address the facts that she lied through her teeth to me regarding this incident, and that she went to this incident knowing full well that I did not approve?
> 
> This notion of people being able to go see strippers is not some thing that every one agrees upon as a matter of values. Clearly, your values differ from mine. This issue at hand here is not what you think is okay, but what I think is okay, as I am her husband and your standards are not my standards.
> 
> Don't treat me as if I'm naive about those parties either. I find your tone condescending and non-productive.


It also appears that your values and your wife's values differ. This may be something for you and her to discuss.

I agree that it's a problem that she lied about knowing that a stripper was going to be there. She likely lied because your values differ. I'm not defending lying but she likely thought this was no big deal and you clearly have a different view of the event. She seems to be aware of this difference in values.

As an aside, I don't understand why you would want to discuss this incident with her parents. The last thing I would want to do is to bring my in-laws into a conflict between me and my wife.


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## the guy

Why did you let her go in the first place. You sound like a smart guy, and one that knows damb well what goes on when there are strippers and now your all worked up.

You made your bed now lie in it and I for one would give my chick a good spanking for miss behaving like that, but i also would have expected it

Bachelorette and bachelor party are for single folks.

Look at from the strippers view point, his and her job is to get clients sexualy charged so they get more money by doing kinky things. The kinker they get the more money they get. Its all about certian degrees of sex. Sex sex sex, and you let you women go and now your pissed.

Maybe your just pissed b/c you weren't alpha enough to tell her to stay home.


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## geogirl

My mother told me " It doesn't matter where they get their appetite from, as long as they eat at home." Gotta love mom.


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## piqued

jai_mann said:


> You see, this is my problem. It is not faithful of her to have a male stripper rubbing his genitalia on her, or for her to come home horny, waking me up.
> 
> Faithfulness is more than simply physical contact. It involves psychological aspects as well.
> 
> Is there some reason why you fail to address the facts that she lied through her teeth to me regarding this incident, and that she went to this incident knowing full well that I did not approve?
> 
> This notion of people being able to go see strippers is not some thing that every one agrees upon as a matter of values. Clearly, your values differ from mine. This issue at hand here is not what you think is okay, but what I think is okay, as I am her husband and your standards are not my standards.
> 
> Don't treat me as if I'm naive about those parties either. I find your tone condescending and non-productive.


Respectfully, you are the problem.

Who knows why she decided to attend, loyalty to a friend, curiousity, wanted a night on the town, something missing sexually between the two of you and she wanted to take in the show. Any of these things or more. But, the only pertinent fact is that she did attend and she clearly wanted to attend. As for faithfulness, the fact that something or someone other than you turned her on is not infidelity. Do you really want control over what she thinks, or at least have the right to approve or disapprove of her thoughts? Look at it like this, she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!

But, you made it clear that you stayed home and stewed about her going the entire time. What type of life is that for your wife? I'm not talking about values either, I'm just talking about the freedom of thought and expression.

As for her lying about it or being less than forthcoming I can think of a couple reasons. One, that might be her nature where she's just not comfortable talking (with you) about things that interest her that she fears won't interest you. Two, along a similar line, judging (albeit its a very short sample) by what you've written she might be afraid of being open with you for fear of either your rejection or your rebuke.

Lastly, and please take this with all due respect, but you sound like a pompous academic that is so convinced by his own thoughts and beliefs that he can't seem to find any level of acceptance for anyone else's, including his wife's. What person comes to an advice forum, asks for help, and then arrogantly rejects a stranger's advice because "I find your tone condescending and non-productive"? Again, respectfully, you seem to be here for no other reason than to have your anger, mistrust, and reasoning validated by others rather than seriously looking for a way to help or improve your relationship with your wife.

Go back and re-read your first two post and analyze yourself. To me, you sound extremely rigid, close-minded, and controlling. Your wife is probably the least of your problems in your relationship. Just my two cents.


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## jai_mann

F-102 said:


> I think you are WAY over reacting. It was a bachelorette party, not a swingers party. Yes, the male rubbed his junk on her, but these strippers are working for tips-they will pull out all stops. Of course your W didn't leave-nobody wants to bee seen as the buzzkill at these things. If it were a bachelor party, and a stripper showed up, would you have the nerve to walk out?


First and foremost, she didn't need to go back to this apartment. All she had to do was say have fun after the club and come home. Secondly, leaving such a scene is not as much of a buzzkill as staying at the scene and acting repulsed. 

I won't go to a bachelor party where strippers are involved, and never have. I didn't have a bachelor party for myself as I find it classless. 

I understand the difference in values that people have here. I'm pondering why it is so difficult for people to dissociate themselves from their own values, and take my values into account for this situation. One does not need to agree with my values to do so.


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## jai_mann

fredless said:


> It also appears that your values and your wife's values differ. This may be something for you and her to discuss.
> 
> I agree that it's a problem that she lied about knowing that a stripper was going to be there. She likely lied because your values differ. I'm not defending lying but she likely thought this was no big deal and you clearly have a different view of the event. She seems to be aware of this difference in values.
> 
> As an aside, I don't understand why you would want to discuss this incident with her parents. The last thing I would want to do is to bring my in-laws into a conflict between me and my wife.


Yes, this value difference is what is killing me. We dated for nearly 8 years and were monogamous. I never went to strip clubs nor she. I'm not sure if she expressing this difference in values simply to justify her own behavior (which I find likely given all of the rest of her behavior thus far). I've been outspoken regarding my own views which makes me feel betrayed that if she truly had differing values, she failed to share them.

I've got a chronic injury to boot and several times over the years I told her I might never recover (tendonitis in the hamstring and adductor), and that if she wanted to split she could. I have felt in the past 4 years that she has stuck with me because she thought I was the best she could get. Clearly, I'm not fitting the bill on something but she isn't communicating about it with me, even though she says she'll communicate when there's issues.

Well the only reason I was thinking of bringing the parents in to the issue is as I said, we are supposed to have an east coast wedding reception for my family members who couldn't make the west coast one. If we have to cancel the reception our parents are going to want to know what's going on. I don't know that I want to go through with it at this point. If our values differ that fundamentally and she has hid this fact for years then I can not see a lasting and fruitful marriage. I'd rather nip the problem in the bud before there's children caught up in the mess.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

piqued said:


> she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!


how do you know she didnt?
then guilt sex?
she lied about everything else.

i would have locked her out until later in the day.

they just got married.
she already knew how he felt about these issues.
she chose to still marry him.
complete disrespect in my eyes.


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## jai_mann

the guy said:


> Why did you let her go in the first place. You sound like a smart guy, and one that knows damb well what goes on when there are strippers and now your all worked up.
> 
> You made your bed now lie in it and I for one would give my chick a good spanking for miss behaving like that, but i also would have expected it
> 
> Bachelorette and bachelor party are for single folks.
> 
> Look at from the strippers view point, his and her job is to get clients sexualy charged so they get more money by doing kinky things. The kinker they get the more money they get. Its all about certian degrees of sex. Sex sex sex, and you let you women go and now your pissed.
> 
> Maybe your just pissed b/c you weren't alpha enough to tell her to stay home.


Shall I bind her wrists with lock and chain?

My values were made clear. As an adult, aware of my values, she selected not to end her evening after dinner out, or clubbing (she even texted me saying it wasn't her scene at the club, and I texted back, facetiously, that it sounded like great fun for "married women"). I'm not going to physically restrict her, and factually speaking, it would be better to be in this situation where I question if the relationship should continue, than to be physically controlling, as that merely leads to resentment.

Would it be alpha enough to give her a thorough beating when I next see her, or has the moment passed? (yes I'm being facetious again...)


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## Entropy3000

So let me get this right. After the club they went back to the apartment and had a private male stripper party where a male stripper rubbed his c0ck on her. She was prepared for that becasue she purposely wore a bikini top for that action. How is this ok? Wearing "special" clothing to allow for his access at the least.

So at least he rubbed on her bare skin. It is reasonable to wonder if she took the top off. It is not unheard of for male strippers to receive handjobs, blowjobs and sometimes cum on the "ladies". In some private male stripper engagments they actually have sex with some of the women. All of what I am saying is complete specualtion, BUT when she is telling lies and saying you do not need to know then there is fire. 

One can reasonably assume the bikini is for extra access and as a display to the stripper for his extra attention. Normally in this case the stripper will use his mouth to pull money out of her bikini top. He of course takes the liberty of playing with her nipples through her bikini, but with such access it easily allows for the bikini to be pushed away or even taken off so he can touch her breasts, kiss and suck on them and maybe have some c0ck breast action which may or may not result in his orgasm. Not typical, it just depends solely on what the ladies want. This should not be assumed of course. You just flat do not know. But this is why women wear a bikini top. It allows access and can easily he disgarded. In private shows it is possible for the stripper to have the "ladies" rub then down with oil including rubbing his genitals. They generally bring some whip cream along in case the women are interested in licking or sucking the whip cream off of their c0cks. Pretty graphic stuff. Again, no reason to assume this happened but it is the environment and I am sure part of the excitement for the ladies. It is reasonable to assume some of these things went on with other women if not with your wife. Ok so that is out of the way.

My wife and I have a look but do not touch policy. Beyond this boundary we consider cheating. We have agreed to that. I would be very upset if my wife lied to me about such activities and not only went to a male strip club but then went to a private party with male strippers. Private parties with male strippers are often pretty much sex parties. The strippers are essentially prostitutes. That is the reason why they are private. If my wife went to a strip club and did not touch or get touched I would not be upset as it is what we have agreed to. I am fortunate that my wife does not want to do these things.

I am betting what went on at the party goes way beyond what you would consider acceptable.

She did not think you needed to know the details of what happened there to her. Really? Why? You are married two months and she is already out after this type of entertainment.


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## unbelievable

Really doesn't matter what the OP's morals allow or don't allow because he wasn't in attendance. If he doesn't like genitals rubbed on his back, he doesn't have to attend. An individual cannot dictate another person's moral standards. Whatever occured apparently didn't break any laws, so it didn't violate society's moral standard. His wife's moral standards are between her and God. He can make his position known to her but in the end, he must accept her (along with her morals) or reject both. 
I have no desire to see strippers and I haven't felt the need to attend a bachelor party that included them. That's part of my own personal morality, I suppose. However, my personal morals also hold that I don't own any other human being nor do I have the right to demand that they adhere to my personal moral standards. The song of freedom often sounds condoscending, offensive, objectionable, or unproductive.


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## Halien

unbelievable said:


> Really doesn't matter what the OP's morals allow or don't allow because he wasn't in attendance. If he doesn't like genitals rubbed on his back, he doesn't have to attend. An individual cannot dictate another person's moral standards. Whatever occured apparently didn't break any laws, so it didn't violate society's moral standard. His wife's moral standards are between her and God. He can make his position known to her but in the end, he must accept her (along with her morals) or reject both.
> I have no desire to see strippers and I haven't felt the need to attend a bachelor party that included them. That's part of my own personal morality, I suppose. However, my personal morals also hold that I don't own any other human being nor do I have the right to demand that they adhere to my personal moral standards. The song of freedom often sounds condoscending, offensive, objectionable, or unproductive.


Does this stop at genital rubbing, or just sex with another guy, or sex with many guys? I guess I'm with you on the freedom thing up to the point of saying "I do".


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## Entropy3000

unbelievable said:


> Your wife is a responsible adult. You've known her for eight years. *She's perfectly capable of going to see male strippers or securing any other form of male attention whenever it suits her.* She apparently decided to marry you instead. She was invited to a bachelorette party and for whatever reason, she accepted the invitation. The sorts of foolishness you described, whether they are your cup of tea or not, are typical of bachelorette parties. If you are invited to a bachelor party, you won't be playing checkers there. Let your wife be an adult and trust that she will be a responsible and faithful one. If her devotion for you isn't enough to keep her from straying too far, any commandments you hand down from the mount won't help, either. She got in the mood and then she brought it home to you. If you have the number of that stripper, I'd like to send my wife to see him.


Really? It is ok for her to secure whatever male attention her little heart desires and he should accept it. LOL. UFB. In an open marriage I agree.


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## Entropy3000

jai_mann said:


> You see, this is my problem. *It is not faithful of her to have a male stripper rubbing his genitalia on her, or for her to come home horny, waking me up.*
> 
> Faithfulness is more than simply physical contact. It involves psychological aspects as well.
> 
> Is there some reason why you fail to address the facts that she lied through her teeth to me regarding this incident, and that she went to this incident knowing full well that I did not approve?
> 
> This notion of people being able to go see strippers is not some thing that every one agrees upon as a matter of values. Clearly, your values differ from mine. This issue at hand here is not what you think is okay, but what I think is okay, as I am her husband and your standards are not my standards.
> 
> Don't treat me as if I'm naive about those parties either. I find your tone condescending and non-productive.


This is not being faithful. You are correct. The key here is that before she went to this party you should have agreed upon boundaries. In fact before you were married. That said, who even thinks their wife is going to go out of thier way to have a guy rub his c0ck on her. F'd up sir. BUT it seems many women today are cake eaters. They want their husband to be faithful but they wish to play with other men.

Faithful married folks do not lie to each other.

Faithful married folks do not have members of the opposite sex rub their genitals on them.

Faithful married folks do not behave in way their SO would object to.

Faithful married folks do not act in a single manner.

Faithful married folks do not disrespect their SO.

Faithful married folks do not do the others things that you are yet to discover.


We are not talking about "seeing" strippers. Male strippers interact in sexual ways with thier clients. In a club it is bad enough. Private parties are again just a form of sex party. Anything goes. How far is only up to the "ladies". It is not just up to how much cash they want to spend. Many strippers will gladly perform sexual favors for women they like.

Men or women who do this type of stuff are playing just the tip.


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## Entropy3000

F-102 said:


> I think you are WAY over reacting. It was a bachelorette party, not a swingers party. Yes, the male rubbed his junk on her, but these strippers are working for tips-they will pull out all stops. Of course your W didn't leave-nobody wants to bee seen as the buzzkill at these things. If it were a bachelor party, and a stripper showed up, would you have the nerve to walk out?


This was a private party. Not at a club. Buzzkill or not she participated in this activity. She knew up front she was going to do this. The intention of this type of peer pressure is to blast through marital boundaries with an excuse. Gee hon we all banged the stripper. I did not want to seem like a wuss and kill the buzz we were all having. So it is ok.


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## Entropy3000

geogirl said:


> My mother told me " It doesn't matter where they get their appetite from, as long as they eat at home." Gotta love mom.


I disagree. This is really just one level of cukolding. She did not go to "see" the strippers, she interacted with them to some unknown extent. 

Is it ok if she gave the guy a HJ or a BJ? Rubbing his c0ck on her is good clean fun.

How far will she go at the next party ... and the next?


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## Entropy3000

piqued said:


> Respectfully, you are the problem.
> 
> Who knows why she decided to attend, loyalty to a friend, curiousity, wanted a night on the town, something missing sexually between the two of you and she wanted to take in the show. Any of these things or more. But, the only pertinent fact is that she did attend and she clearly wanted to attend. As for faithfulness, the fact that something or someone other than you turned her on is not infidelity. Do you really want control over what she thinks, or at least have the right to approve or disapprove of her thoughts? Look at it like this, she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!
> 
> But, you made it clear that you stayed home and stewed about her going the entire time. What type of life is that for your wife? I'm not talking about values either, I'm just talking about the freedom of thought and expression.
> 
> As for her lying about it or being less than forthcoming I can think of a couple reasons. One, that might be her nature where she's just not comfortable talking (with you) about things that interest her that she fears won't interest you. Two, along a similar line, judging (albeit its a very short sample) by what you've written she might be afraid of being open with you for fear of either your rejection or your rebuke.
> 
> Lastly, and please take this with all due respect, but you sound like a pompous academic that is so convinced by his own thoughts and beliefs that he can't seem to find any level of acceptance for anyone else's, including his wife's. What person comes to an advice forum, asks for help, and then arrogantly rejects a stranger's advice because "I find your tone condescending and non-productive"? Again, respectfully, you seem to be here for no other reason than to have your anger, mistrust, and reasoning validated by others rather than seriously looking for a way to help or improve your relationship with your wife.
> 
> Go back and re-read your first two post and analyze yourself. To me, you sound extremely rigid, close-minded, and controlling. Your wife is probably the least of your problems in your relationship. Just my two cents.


She did not go to a "show". It was not becasue she was turned on. She was part of the show and acted out sexual activities with a male prosititute ( stripper ).

You know there is a difference between a guy looking at a stripper .... a show and going into the VIP with the stripper for sexual favors. In these private parties the strippers may or may not take the women to the bedroom or to the restroom. Very often they just get it on in front of the other women with a lot of hollering and whooping and you go girl.


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## jai_mann

piqued said:


> Respectfully, you are the problem.


I do not agree.



piqued said:


> Who knows why she decided to attend, loyalty to a friend, curiousity, wanted a night on the town, something missing sexually between the two of you and she wanted to take in the show. Any of these things or more. But, the only pertinent fact is that she did attend and she clearly wanted to attend.


This is obvious. I already stated as much to her. IMHO she wanted to see a muscle bound model dancing around naked. This is by definition infidelity. Look up the definition. It is unfaithfulness and disloyalty to me, some one she pledged herself to not 2 months ago. 



piqued said:


> As for faithfulness, the fact that something or someone other than you turned her on is not infidelity.


Yes it is infidelity. Becoming sexually, physiologically aroused by others is a lack of faithfulness. Please read the dictionary definitions for these words as you are mistaken.



piqued said:


> Do you really want control over what she thinks, or at least have the right to approve or disapprove of her thoughts?


Apparently there is this problem with some people on this forum who perceive boundaries as those with the boundaries wanting to control others. If some one steps close to your face speaking to you are you controlling for wanting them to give you space? If two people pledge faithfulness to one another is it controlling to desire an adherence of that pledge of faithfulness? The thing is, if she honestly wants to hold the values that she claimed (and she wasn't just saying so to make herself not sound like a hypocrite) then that's fine. We split up and I go on my way. What precisely is it that makes you think that I desire to control what she thinks? She made an oath, I would appreciate it if she held to it. If you contract some one to do some construction for you, would you be controlling if you requested that they adhere to the contract?

What's so complicated about this?



piqued said:


> Look at it like this, she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!


No. You see, I'm not desperate, nor do I seek sloppy seconds, or to be the guy she comes home to bang. I understand that the average male apparently will take what ever they can get, but I'm not interested in what ever I can get. I want a functional, honest relationship; something in small supply these days, as demonstrated in numerous posts thus far.



piqued said:


> But, you made it clear that you stayed home and stewed about her going the entire time. What type of life is that for your wife? I'm not talking about values either, I'm just talking about the freedom of thought and expression.


What's the problem? She wasn't physically present to observe my disgust with her decision. I fail to see your point. Can you expand upon what you mean by freedom of thought and expression and how my ire with her behavior, a married woman, are at odds?



piqued said:


> As for her lying about it or being less than forthcoming I can think of a couple reasons. One, that might be her nature where she's just not comfortable talking (with you) about things that interest her that she fears won't interest you. Two, along a similar line, judging (albeit its a very short sample) by what you've written she might be afraid of being open with you for fear of either your rejection or your rebuke.


The motivations for her lying aren't a mystery. She didn't want me knowing what she did because she knew I would not approve of some stranger rubbing his genitals across her. My concern with the lying is that it is at odds with faithfulness and loyalty, which is what we pledged ourselves to in marriage. 



piqued said:


> Lastly, and please take this with all due respect, but you sound like a pompous academic that is so convinced by his own thoughts and beliefs that he can't seem to find any level of acceptance for anyone else's, including his wife's.


In what way do ad hominem attacks upon my character provide productive feedback? I'm not interested in your loose values or the loose values of any one else on here. In fact, I didn't expect so many with loose values on here and perhaps I should have requested that those with loose values keep them to themselves as I am not seeking feedback from such. Now in retort, how can I accept the thoughts or beliefs from her, _if she does not share them until after she has done something I disapprove of_? When I express an attitude on something to her, then it's her turn to express her attitude, especially if it differs. If she is not willing to be open about her attitudes with me, especially when they differ, then that sets up both parties for problems. 



piqued said:


> What person comes to an advice forum, asks for help, and then arrogantly rejects a stranger's advice because "I find your tone condescending and non-productive"?


Look at what I posted. I did not ask for help. I asked for feed back. So I'm getting feedback, and I'm rejecting some of it. What's the problem? Didn't you just earlier state that I should be open to freedom of expression? Maybe you should be open to my freedom of expression and not attack me simply because I disagree with what others have said, and in a condescending manner at that (ie: any commandments you hand down from the mount won't help, either). 



piqued said:


> Again, respectfully, you seem to be here for no other reason than to have your anger, mistrust, and reasoning validated by others rather than seriously looking for a way to help or improve your relationship with your wife.


I was actually interested in getting feedback from people on here as I thought their values might be similar. From what I've read searching through other threads, there are absolutely others who share my attitude on this topic, but that have not posted here. Rather than having some one regurgitate my own viewpoints, I was hoping, that those who share similar values, would chime in with their own feedback on the issue. There's plenty of others with the same values who have gone through such experiences and that's who I thought I would hear from. But it appears that there's far more with loose values on here. Can I help it if your values are not the same as mine? No. 



piqued said:


> Go back and re-read your first two post and analyze yourself. To me, you sound extremely rigid, close-minded, and controlling. Your wife is probably the least of your problems in your relationship. Just my two cents.


Maybe you're right. Maybe I should encourage my wife to go out on girls night out, get intoxicated, dress to kill, potentially have the occasional stripper rub his meat against her, and giddily wait for her to return home, all ready for action. Thanks for recommending that reread my posts. Honestly, I don't know what I was thinking when those gems were presented to me.
:lol:


----------



## Entropy3000

jai_mann said:


> Shall I bind her wrists with lock and chain?
> 
> My values were made clear. As an adult, aware of my values, she selected not to end her evening after dinner out, or clubbing (she even texted me saying it wasn't her scene at the club, and I texted back, facetiously, that it sounded like great fun for "married women"). I'm not going to physically restrict her, and factually speaking, it would be better to be in this situation where I question if the relationship should continue, than to be physically controlling, as that merely leads to resentment.
> 
> Would it be alpha enough to give her a thorough beating when I next see her, or has the moment passed? (yes I'm being facetious again...)


It is actually pretty easy to draw the line. It is not about you physically restraining anyone. It is not about controlling anyone.

You simply state that this activity is not acceptable to you in your marriage.

I think it very telling that now you are married she feels free to be single again.

Me, if I had been married for two months .... and I found my wife lying and doing things she knew I found unaccecptable ... I would probably not continue on. The fact that she sadi you did not need to know what she did would be a deal breaker for me. The attitude and lying would be the biggest part but frankly you have no idea what she actually did. You know at least she lied, disrespected you and has a guy rub his c0ck on her. That she was expecting BTW. This was not some being caught by surprise thing. For me if my wife wants another mans c0ck she can have it. I just will not be her husbanded and would get no kick from being cuckolded.

No kids ... right? If you do have kids in the furture with her make sure they are yours.
I don't say that to be offensive or disrespectful. If she is going to frequent these typ of things there is a real reason to be concerned especially with her lying about it and not wanting you to know what she did.


----------



## jai_mann

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> how do you know she didnt?
> then guilt sex?
> she lied about everything else.
> 
> i would have locked her out until later in the day.
> 
> they just got married.
> she already knew how he felt about these issues.
> she chose to still marry him.
> complete disrespect in my eyes.


Wow, some one who shares similar values. Thanks for responding. Would you care to give me more feed back regarding this? I've known her for 8 years and can read her exceptionally well. I very highly doubt she's ever had sex or done any thing else like that since we started dating. She really has been a gem up to this point. 

I've got this problem of an additional reception on the east coast for my family in a month. I feel like I should cancel it until we work things out and either decide to work on this together, or go our separate ways. We still haven't cashed all of the gift checks from the reception on the west coast here and it's a head ache at the moment. I know that we need to talk things through but if she thinks I'm the best she can do and that's her reason for sticking with me, then she's clearly not going to be motivated to leave me or respect me. That's really one of the major issues of concern here. I've got no problem leaving her. It's a heart break, but after you've gone through one you learn to move on and try to learn from the previous good and bad experiences...


----------



## Entropy3000

unbelievable said:


> Really doesn't matter what the OP's morals allow or don't allow because he wasn't in attendance. If he doesn't like genitals rubbed on his back, he doesn't have to attend. An individual cannot dictate another person's moral standards. Whatever occured apparently didn't break any laws, so it didn't violate society's moral standard. His wife's moral standards are between her and God. He can make his position known to her but in the end, he must accept her (along with her morals) or reject both.
> I have no desire to see strippers and I haven't felt the need to attend a bachelor party that included them. That's part of my own personal morality, I suppose. However, my personal morals also hold that I don't own any other human being nor do I have the right to demand that they adhere to my personal moral standards. The song of freedom often sounds condoscending, offensive, objectionable, or unproductive.


His wife fornicating with twenty men would not break any laws.
Should he be ok with that?

Indeed marriage 2.0 legally says nothing about fidelity. It has to be policed with pre-nups and reasonable trustworthy people making vows to one another. Of course these vows are not legally binding any more. Progress.

It is even legal to murder your child if there is reasonable doubt.



He is well within in his rights to refuse to be married to a woman who behaves this way. That is within the law.


----------



## Entropy3000

jai_mann said:


> Wow, some one who shares similar values. Thanks for responding. Would you care to give me more feed back regarding this? I've known her for 8 years and can read her exceptionally well. I very highly doubt she's ever had sex or done any thing else like that since we started dating. She really has been a gem up to this point.
> 
> *I've got this problem of an additional reception on the east coast for my family in a month.* I feel like I should cancel it until we work things out and either decide to work on this together, or go our separate ways. We still haven't cashed all of the gift checks from the reception on the west coast here and it's a head ache at the moment. I know that we need to talk things through but if she thinks I'm the best she can do and that's her reason for sticking with me, then she's clearly not going to be motivated to leave me or respect me. That's really one of the major issues of concern here. I've got no problem leaving her. It's a heart break, but after you've gone through one you learn to move on and try to learn from the previous good and bad experiences...


Use this. Maybe she will realize you are serious. How can one be married to someone who does not resepct them. It is unfortunate that she was one way for eight years and now wants to play with other men.


----------



## Entropy3000

geogirl said:


> My mother told me " It doesn't matter where they get their appetite from, as long as they eat at home." Gotta love mom.


Geogirl was your mom ok with having sex with strippers? Or just short of penetration. Where is the line? Is there a line?


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## golfergirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Geogirl was your mom ok with having sex with strippers? Or just short of penetration. Where is the line? Is there a line?


If my H went to a bachelor party and rubbed his face in some strippers boobies, I'd have a problem. If he lied - I'd have a bigger problem. I hold myself to same standards that I expect of him. Funny - people think it's disrespectful for a wife to joke about wanting to rub some guys bicept, think it's ok to have strange genitalia rubbed on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

golfergirl said:


> If my H went to a bachelor party and rubbed his face in some strippers boobies, I'd have a problem. If he lied - I'd have a bigger problem. I hold myself to same standards that I expect of him. *Funny - people think it's disrespectful for a wife to joke about wanting to rub some guys bicept, think it's ok to have strange genitalia rubbed on them.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you and I agree. 

Who are you talking about?

I have the same boundaries as my wife.

FWIW rubbing face in boobies is not the same as a guy rubbing his junk on the wife, but you made a good point. I think lap dances are the equivalent.


----------



## Entropy3000

piqued said:


> Respectfully, you are the problem.
> 
> Who knows why she decided to attend, loyalty to a friend, curiousity, wanted a night on the town, something missing sexually between the two of you and she wanted to take in the show. Any of these things or more. But, the only pertinent fact is that she did attend and she clearly wanted to attend. As for faithfulness, the fact that something or someone other than you turned her on is not infidelity. Do you really want control over what she thinks, or at least have the right to approve or disapprove of her thoughts? Look at it like this, she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!
> 
> But, you made it clear that you stayed home and stewed about her going the entire time. What type of life is that for your wife? I'm not talking about values either, I'm just talking about the freedom of thought and expression.
> 
> As for her lying about it or being less than forthcoming I can think of a couple reasons. One, that might be her nature where she's just not comfortable talking (with you) about things that interest her that she fears won't interest you. Two, along a similar line, judging (albeit its a very short sample) by what you've written she might be afraid of being open with you for fear of either your rejection or your rebuke.
> 
> Lastly, and please take this with all due respect, but you sound like a pompous academic that is so convinced by his own thoughts and beliefs that he can't seem to find any level of acceptance for anyone else's, including his wife's. What person comes to an advice forum, asks for help, and then arrogantly rejects a stranger's advice because "I find your tone condescending and non-productive"? Again, respectfully, you seem to be here for no other reason than to have your anger, mistrust, and reasoning validated by others rather than seriously looking for a way to help or improve your relationship with your wife.
> 
> Go back and re-read your first two post and analyze yourself. To me, you sound extremely rigid, close-minded, and controlling. Your wife is probably the least of your problems in your relationship. Just my two cents.


Dude!!!! I just read your posts. You want your wife to lighten up and get onto chat sites and do webcam stuff.

Dude!!!!!!!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/12393-meathods-get-wife-interested-chat-erotica-porn.html


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## golfergirl

Entropy3000 said:


> So you and I agree.
> 
> Who are you talking about?
> 
> I have the same boundaries as my wife.


It wasnt you, but there was a thread where a wife was commenting to her friend in front of H that she wanted to squeeze coaches bicepts to see if they were real. Everyone agreed it was rude and some even joked that he should comment he wants to motorboat some chicks hot hooties. It was that thread in general I was refering to. You and I agree. I don't know what I'd call it (cheating), but it is rude, disrespectful and dishonest!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

golfergirl said:


> It wasnt you, but there was a thread where a wife was commenting to her friend in front of H that she wanted to squeeze coaches bicepts to see if they were real. Everyone agreed it was rude and some even joked that he should comment he wants to motorboat some chicks hot hooties. It was that thread in general I was refering to. You and I agree. I don't know what I'd call it (cheating), but it is rude, disrespectful and dishonest!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. I remember the thread. My answer in that thread was not to do equivalent bad behavior.


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## heartsbeating

I understand how you'd be annoyed. She wasn't upfront with you, she didn't respect how you felt, she let a guy rub himself on her (which I do think she probably found gross) but in the end and maybe reluctantly, she has told you what happened. 

I went to my first bachelorette party in this vain just a few years ago. There was a party bus, drinks, then strip club. Most of us found the strip club a real turn off, myself included. I wasn't enjoying it, left early and sober. I learned the night continued for the remaining girls with a private stripper and more drinks, he may or may not have scored a bj. 

I don't know what the answer is for you. It's a bump in the road early on for you both. Based on your personal views, it's a major bump. You said she's been a gem up unto this point. She's still that person. She went to a bachelorette party and messed up. I do think it could have been worse and chances are you're gonna have to deal with worse in your marriage than a drunken bachelorette party and a stripper rubbing his covered wang against her back. Gross lol. Give yourself time to deal with it. Don't do anything rash. My 2 cents.


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## Entropy3000

heartsbreaking said:


> I understand how you'd be annoyed. She wasn't upfront with you, she didn't respect how you felt, she let a guy rub himself on her (which I do think she probably found gross) but in the end and maybe reluctantly, she has told you what happened.
> 
> I went to my first bachelorette party in this vain just a few years ago. There was a party bus, drinks, then strip club. Most of us found the strip club a real turn off, myself included. I wasn't enjoying it, left early and sober. *I learned the night continued for the remaining girls with a private stripper and more drinks, he may or may not have scored a bj. *
> 
> I don't know what the answer is for you. It's a bump in the road early on for you both. Based on your personal views, it's a major bump. You said she's been a gem up unto this point. She's still that person. She went to a bachelorette party and messed up. I do think it could have been worse and chances are you're gonna have to deal with worse in your marriage than a drunken bachelorette party and a stripper *rubbing his covered wang* against her back. Gross lol. Give yourself time to deal with it. Don't do anything rash. My 2 cents.


Strip clubs are one level of things. Private "shows" are a whole other level of activity for men or women.

I may be weird about this but while I would not be pleased with a "covered wang", I find the uncovered wang rubbing on the wife a whole other level of activity.

The difference between a female stripper doing a lap dance clothed and one doing it nude. A different level to be sure.

He really does not know what the activity was.
I do agree that if it truly was just what you describe he should be able to set future boubdaries with her and move on IF she will agree to boubdaries he can accept and vice versa.

He seems to be getting trickle truth FWIW.


----------



## Ayrun

I honestly can't imagine my lady in a situation like that. I think she'd burn up red from embarrassment, and maybe faint. Kinda funny, now that I think about it.


----------



## morituri

Dump her and move on. Case closed.


----------



## piqued

well, at the core there are two things here. The first is how does he square his values with his wife's misstep. I agree with what was posted above, through the course of your future marriage there will probably be greater challenges than this one. It's up to you to decide if this one night of letting her hair down has completely spoiled your opinion of what you've otherwise described as a great lady.

As to her decision to attend the stripper portion of the evening, this would seem to indicate that there is something lacking in her life, and it could or could not be sexual. And, to be fair to her and yourself, this might be brought on by something you are or are not doing. Perhaps she just wanted a chance to experience something she hasn't, perhaps even as she shares your views she was rebelling against the strong and controlling manner in which you voice them, perhaps sexually she was in a rut and just wanted some excitement.

The actions and the deception are definite issues to work through, and they obviously leave a mark. But, in dealing with those don't lose sight of the underlying REASON for the actions. You may have played an unwitting role in that as well.


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## Syrum

I view strip clubs and private strippers at parties as cheating.

If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse then you know it's not OK. 

If you would find it cheating if you came home and your spouse was alone in a room with a naked person of the opposite sex enjoying a peep show, then it is still cheating if they do this in a strip club, it doesn't matter that they are in a group or have paid for it.

I don't know why society is so complacent about this sort of behaviour, I find it degrading to everyone involved.

I think your wife is very wrong, and that it's perfectly Ok to have those boundaries, it doesn't mean anything is lacking in your sex life as some people seem to imply. Sometimes people behave badly and treat their spouse poorly despite having great relationships.


----------



## Syrum

piqued said:


> Respectfully, you are the problem.
> 
> Who knows why she decided to attend, loyalty to a friend, curiousity, wanted a night on the town, something missing sexually between the two of you and she wanted to take in the show. Any of these things or more. But, the only pertinent fact is that she did attend and she clearly wanted to attend. As for faithfulness, the fact that something or someone other than you turned her on is not infidelity. Do you really want control over what she thinks, or at least have the right to approve or disapprove of her thoughts? Look at it like this, she could have picked up a guy at the club or gotten down with the stripper, but she didn't. She came home and wanted to get on with you!


If the Op's wife felt something was missing in the relationship, she should have gone to him and talked about it. Not been disloyal and behaved like she did.

I believe it is infidelity. Just because there is no vaginal penatration doesn't mean you have been faithful. seriously people just seem to go further and further with what is socially acceptable, despite it being bad for relationships.



> But, you made it clear that you stayed home and stewed about her going the entire time. What type of life is that for your wife? I'm not talking about values either, I'm just talking about the freedom of thought and expression.


What kind of life is it for him, knowing his wife would rather go out and have some guy rub himself on her, rather then value and protect her marriage ans honor her vows?



> As for her lying about it or being less than forthcoming I can think of a couple reasons. One, that might be her nature where she's just not comfortable talking (with you) about things that interest her that she fears won't interest you. Two, along a similar line, judging (albeit its a very short sample) by what you've written she might be afraid of being open with you for fear of either your rejection or your rebuke.


I can think of a couple of reasons too, she knew what she did was wrong. She felt ashamed etc, usually people lie when they have something to cover up.



> Lastly, and please take this with all due respect, but you sound like a pompous academic that is so convinced by his own thoughts and beliefs that he can't seem to find any level of acceptance for anyone else's, including his wife's. What person comes to an advice forum, asks for help, and then arrogantly rejects a stranger's advice because "I find your tone condescending and non-productive"? Again, respectfully, you seem to be here for no other reason than to have your anger, mistrust, and reasoning validated by others rather than seriously looking for a way to help or improve your relationship with your wife.


I disagree, you seem to be pushing your own agenda, which is you think it's fine to ogle other people and have them rub themselves on you for pleasure. Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that it's really a good thing to do because you wouldn't want to believe your own values wrong.



> Go back and re-read your first two post and analyze yourself. To me, you sound extremely rigid, close-minded, and controlling. Your wife is probably the least of your problems in your relationship. Just my two cents


Just because some one doesn't take the socially accepted norm that strippers, prostitution, porn etc are Good for relationships or great for their marriage doesn't make them closed minded in fact I would say the opposite is true, all these "open minded" people with the same sexual values as every other person are the ones who seem very closed minded to the idea that it is harmful.


----------



## AFEH

jai_mann, eight years together, no problems. Two months married she stomps on and crushes one of your boundaries, she’s unfaithful and lies about it. It’s the marriage, she thinks she’s got you by the balls.

Two months and she’s already crashed off her pedestal. I think it’s time to be thankful you don’t have children together, it’s a whole new ballgame with disloyals/liars when kiddies are involved.

Keep to your standards, don’t let her lower them, drag them down. You don’t have to change the craziness that’s going on in some parts of society. It is time to be absolutely intolerant of such behaviour in your life with your wife. Tell her if she doesn’t like your rules/boundaries she can leave.


----------



## Halien

AFEH said:


> jai_mann, eight years together, no problems. Two months married she stomps on and crushes one of your boundaries, she’s unfaithful and lies about it. It’s the marriage, she thinks she’s got you by the balls.
> 
> Two months and she’s already crashed off her pedestal. I think it’s time to be thankful you don’t have children together, it’s a whole new ballgame with disloyals/liars when kiddies are involved.
> 
> Keep to your standards, don’t let her lower them, drag them down. You don’t have to change the craziness that’s going on in some parts of society. It is time to be absolutely intolerant of such behaviour in your life with your wife. Tell her if she doesn’t like your rules/boundaries she can leave.


And if it helps, here's another who completely agrees with the statement above. Interestingly, my wife says that one of my traits that she finds most attractive is that I am extremely protective of her, but only within the boundaries that we agree upon together. If your wife can't see that part of your motivation is your fierce love of her, and not just selfishness, then you two are further apart than you thought before, and I think this is part of what is bothering you.


----------



## Hicks

I totally agree that she crossed a boundary and that this is not what a married woman should be doing. The major issues are lying, wearing a bikini, and physical contact.

Now, you know she got "turned on" by this. You must realize that your wife is a sexual woman who gets turned on by displays of maleness. She put herself in a situation where there was one Alpha Male and many woman literally fighting each other for him. This is why she wore the bikini, allowed herself to be touched and I'm sure did whatever it took to get the male to choose her over the other females. This is all biologically based. And it is pure infidelity for a woman to compete with other femailes to try to win the approval and respond sexually to an Alpha Male who is not her husband.

So, keep this in mind that your wife is biologically programmed to respond sexually to an alpha male. The question is, did your lack of maleness open the door for her to get caught up in this? Almost certainly. I'm not blaming you but I recommend you be aware of this angle.

But given all that, in your resolution of this problem you have to display male strength. This means you cannot give up this boundary, or your values, or you definition of infidelity, or allow yourself to walk away from this without her complete understanding and 100% agreement what it means to be your wife. Also, you cannot act in such a way that the wedding reception has any impact whatsoever in your decision. So, I would recommend you cancel it. You should tell your guests and let your wife know that the explanation for the cancel is "Wife and I had a difference of opinion on something. It is the type of thing that I'm not sure we have the same idea of marriage. I don't want to get into the specifics. We are working through it. For now, I would not feel right about having a reception".

Your strength, your unwillingness to waver from your values (even when explaining why you are canceling the party) are key here. But, given everythign described, I would give your wife the chance to demonstrate that she accepts marriage on your terms, giving her the choice to do this or leave.


----------



## Entropy3000

Syrum said:


> I view strip clubs and private strippers at parties as cheating.
> 
> If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse then you know it's not OK.
> 
> If you would find it cheating if you came home and your spouse was alone in a room with a naked person of the opposite sex enjoying a peep show, then it is still cheating if they do this in a strip club, it doesn't matter that they are in a group or have paid for it.
> 
> I don't know why society is so complacent about this sort of behaviour, I find it degrading to everyone involved.
> 
> I think your wife is very wrong, and that it's perfectly Ok to have those boundaries, it doesn't mean anything is lacking in your sex life as some people seem to imply. Sometimes people behave badly and treat their spouse poorly despite having great relationships.


Finally some words of reason and sanity. He has every right to be concerned for more than one reason.


----------



## Whip Morgan

I work in hospitality and every summer we are flooded with bachelorette parties. These things are almost always thoroughly planned out. Everything. Most of the time, they are women acting silly together. However, I have seen some very inappropriate behavior by a woman about to be married ( and the friends are often married, encouraging the behavior). 

Jai, the problem with these bachelorette parties is that the husband to be and husbands of other women will never get the real story of what happens on these trips. Unless a woman does something wrong and breaks down from guilt. Look around at the stories in the Infidelity board. That doesn't happen often. 

Your wife knew what was going to happen, was ready for it, participated and then lied to you about it. Two months after she took vows to love you above all others. She could have left that party early knowing you had entirely reasonable expectations of her behavior, regardless of what her friends would have said to her. She chose not to. What really sucks is that you may not have the whole story. Read some more posts in the Infidelity board, and you'll think you definately dont know the whole story. And she is socializing with women who condone this type of behavior. Lots of stories floating around here about toxic friends.

Two months in and she pulls something like this? No respect and no honesty. Since I've been lurking on TAM for close to a year, and combined with what I've seen in my work - bachelorette parties and the dreaded "girls night out", I have developed a phrase that I've been repeating to a few married friends. If your wife/husband wants to act single, make them single.


----------



## Entropy3000

Hicks said:


> I totally agree that she crossed a boundary and that this is not what a married woman should be doing. The major issues are lying, wearing a bikini, and physical contact.
> 
> Now, you know she got "turned on" by this. You must realize that your wife is a sexual woman who gets turned on by displays of maleness. She put herself in a situation where there was one Alpha Male and many woman literally fighting each other for him. This is why she wore the bikini, allowed herself to be touched and I'm sure did whatever it took to get the male to choose her over the other females. This is all biologically based. And it is pure infidelity for a woman to compete with other femailes to try to win the approval and respond sexually to an Alpha Male who is not her husband.
> 
> So, keep this in mind that your wife is biologically programmed to respond sexually to an alpha male. The question is, did your lack of maleness open the door for her to get caught up in this? Almost certainly. I'm not blaming you but I recommend you be aware of this angle.
> 
> But given all that, in your resolution of this problem you have to display male strength. This means you cannot give up this boundary, or your values, or you definition of infidelity, or allow yourself to walk away from this without her complete understanding and 100% agreement what it means to be your wife. Also, you cannot act in such a way that the wedding reception has any impact whatsoever in your decision. So, I would recommend you cancel it. You should tell your guests and let your wife know that the explanation for the cancel is "Wife and I had a difference of opinion on something. It is the type of thing that I'm not sure we have the same idea of marriage. I don't want to get into the specifics. We are working through it. For now, I would not feel right about having a reception".
> 
> Your strength, your unwillingness to waver from your values (even when explaining why you are canceling the party) are key here. But, given everythign described, I would give your wife the chance to demonstrate that she accepts marriage on your terms, giving her the choice to do this or leave.


Some good points of view here. For you to give into her is not attractive. She has demonstrated that she is interested in competing for the Alpha male which of course is very disrespectful of you. She would not find your willingness to accept this as attractive on your part. It would be you submitting to here desire for other Alpha males. This is why I see this activity as a level of cuckolding if allowed to continue.

Check this blog out. Just finished the book myself.

http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/


----------



## morituri

As someone else here said, she probably engaged in more than just allowing the male stripper to rub his genitals on her skin. More so if there was alcohol involved - which is almost always the case.

Bottom line is that you were conned by her into believing that she shared your moral value system. It didn't take long after the two of you got married that she commits this grievous act of infidelity. It wouldn't be surprising if she did cheat on you during your 8 year courtship. For people seldom do an about face with regards to their moral values, like she has.

Get the marriage annulled and move on.


----------



## jayde

My two cents . . . 8 good years and one night of mildly bad behavior. Hmmm. And she wanted to do you afterwards. Many guys wouldn't call this a problem. 

IMHO - I think you did this already - tell her how much this upset you and you find her behavior repulsive and that you would like for her to never do it again. And get over it. One might argue that there is a moral dilema in our society that people so flippantly toss away basically good relationships due to selfishness, pigheadedness, lack of trying or always seeing the grass greener elsewhere. From a practical perspective, is this one issue worth tossing it all away and having to start afresh with someone new? (and having to find out all sorts of other issues about them). 

And I'm not talking about being a doormat, putting up with abuse, not manning/womanning up or anything like that (if she were hitting the bachelorette parties every weekend and flipping you the bird as she walked out the door - that would be a different matter). It sounds like you two have some really good stuff happening in your relationship - try fixing it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

It seems harsh to leave a marriage because she attended this party. 

But it isn't a great sign having her disregard your wishes and attend this party after only being married two months. It is disrespectful and is a sign as to what will happen in the years to come.

Somehow you need to make a very strong stand. You may have to leave the relationship. You may be able to get the message to her that this won't be tolerated without actually separating. 

But she needs to know that you are willing to leave her for this type of thing or your future years are going to be filled with her doing as she pleases without regard for your feelings.


----------



## unbelievable

Clearly, this woman is evil. She had the bad manners of making an adult decision that her husband disapproved of. I say a few dozen lashes or maybe stoning. Of course, you could always sell her to some other guy. You might, however, join the 21st century and regard this woman as a person. She may not dig everything you do, either.


----------



## jayde

Unbelievable . . . youhad me going for a moment. LOL


----------



## morituri

unbelievable said:


> Clearly, this woman is evil. She had the bad manners of making an adult decision that her husband disapproved of. I say a few dozen lashes or maybe stoning. Of course, you could always sell her to some other guy. You might, however, join the 21st century and regard this woman as a person. She may not dig everything you do, either.


You are so right, how dare he be such a neanderthal.

He should consider himself lucky that she came back to him and offered him 'sloppy seconds' :woohoo:


----------



## jayde

One more thought - if the marriage is really in trouble over this one event, perhaps there are other things going wrong too and this is just an easy thing to put your finger on.


----------



## morituri

jayde said:


> One more thought - if the marriage is really in trouble over this one event, perhaps there are other things going wrong too and this is just an easy thing to put your finger on.


It is obvious to a blind man that the two of them share different moral value systems. She pretended to share his when in reality she didn't. That's called *deception* and it's at the root of many marital problems including infidelity which this 'event' shows quite clearly, she committed.


----------



## jayde

morituri said:


> It is obvious to a blind man that the two of them share different moral value systems. She pretended to share his when in reality she didn't. That's called *deception* and it's at the root of many marital problems including infidelity which this 'event' shows quite clearly, she committed.


Well - without a whole lot of background, I'm thinking they wouldn't have lasted 8 years, and I hope, not gotten married if they're moral compasses were not, at least, mostly lined up. And, if her lying to him was a pattern and she was sleeping all around town, I would agree with you.


----------



## chillymorn

unbelievable said:


> Clearly, this woman is evil. She had the bad manners of making an adult decision that her husband disapproved of. I say a few dozen lashes or maybe stoning. Of course, you could always sell her to some other guy. You might, however, join the 21st century and regard this woman as a person. She may not dig everything you do, either.


:iagree:

you should have banged her when she came home it would have been some of the best sex you guys ever had.

missed a golden opprutunity:scratchhead:


----------



## MrK

I can't be bothered to read all of these posts, but Entropy is correct. There were some B-J's being given at this party, by multiple women and right in front of each other. At this point, I'd say it's 50-50 as to wether or not your wife put his junk in her mouth. Minimum, the bachelorette got laid, probably a couple of others. That your wife gave him a handjob is practically guaranteed. She admitted to revealing some skin for some fun, she lied about other stuff...

I've been to strip joints. I've been to a couple of bachelor parties. I've read things and heard personal accounts of other people at both. It is very rare that a man gets any kid of sex at naked girl parties. But google "bachelorete party video" or "CFNM Video" (clothed females, naked males) and watch a few. No man will EVER let his SO go to a private stripper party after that. 

Check yourself for STD's. This is bad.

OK. I've read all of the posts. Check out some of those male striper websites. CFNMtube.com may be all you'll need. If you guys have never seen this stuff, be prepared to be amazed.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I cannot believe the conclusions that people are jumping to here. It just blows my mind. In any case, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. C'est la vie.


----------



## MrK

You're quote the partier, eh BrightEyes?


----------



## kelevra

Alpha Time son... you just choppered into the Nam


----------



## Whip Morgan

unbelievable said:


> Clearly, this woman is evil. She had the bad manners of making an adult decision that her husband disapproved of. I say a few dozen lashes or maybe stoning. Of course, you could always sell her to some other guy. You might, however, join the 21st century and regard this woman as a person. She may not dig everything you do, either.


Yes, she as an adult, made a decision to engage in activities that her husband disapproved of. She knew he was not okay with the idea of a male stripper at a private show. Common sense should lead any adult to realize that the same husband would not be okay with his wife removing clothing and engaging in physical contact with the stripper, which was what she knew would happen. 

Thats the problem. She made the decision to do this. Then she made the decision to lie about it. I stated earlier that I work in hospitality and deal with bachelorette parties often. Do I have some bias against them when I read these stories here? Yeah, sure. But I will not consider all women who attend these functions as evil, or as manipulative liars. 

However, in Jai's case, we know there was inappropriate contact between a married woman and a stripper, which she was ready for and allowed. We also know she lied to her husband. My experiences dealing with BPs makes me believe there is still alot that Jai doesn't know about (and any husbands of other women present)


----------



## Whip Morgan

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I cannot believe the conclusions that people are jumping to here. It just blows my mind. In any case, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. C'est la vie.


Brennan, it is very easy to jump to conclusions and assume the worst-case scenario. And we have no idea of how Jai's relationship has been for the last 8 years

But the problem remains : something occurred that Jai's wife knew he was against, and she then lied about it. Not good.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MrK said:


> You're quote the partier, eh BrightEyes?


I am saying that their are some vast assumptions being made.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Whip Morgan said:


> Brennan, it is very easy to jump to conclusions and assume the worst-case scenario. And we have no idea of how Jai's relationship has been for the last 8 years
> 
> But the problem remains : something occurred that Jai's wife knew he was against, and she then lied about it. Not good.


She lied, that's a given. Jumping from that to she blew him in front of all the women/nailed him and is now disease ridden is ridiculous.


----------



## MrK

Do the google search.


----------



## jayde

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am saying that their are some vast assumptions being made.


I agree. And, over the past few months, I've learned that we often create a lot of our problems by what we assume, imagine, reading into others' thoughts and expecting others to not be honest. Call me naive, stupid, overly optomistic, whatever but coming to this realization has gotten me through the darkest time of my marriage (and my life). Ask the hard questions, be prepared for the answers and trust that it's true until proven otherwise.


----------



## morituri

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I cannot believe the conclusions that people are jumping to here. It just blows my mind. In any case, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. C'est la vie.


*Oh really? How would you feel if your husband went to a bachelor party after you expressed your wishes that he did not, put on his swimsuit, went to the club and then to an apartment where the female stripper came on to him rubbing her vulva on your husband's skin and then he came home late in the morning trying to have sex with you? How would that make you feel?*


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> *Oh really? How would you feel if your husband went to a bachelor party after you expressed your wishes that he did not, put on his swimsuit, went to the club and then to an apartment where the female stripper came on to him rubbing her vulva on your husband's skin and then he came home late in the morning trying to have sex with you? How would that make you feel?*


No need to bold and shout at me. I never once said what she did was right, now did I? I find those parties disgusting for both sexes and he has every right to be hurt/angry/etc. 
What I am saying is that it seems like everybody is jumping to some enormous conclusions about what she did. We don't know what happened, none of us were there but she has already been tried and executed by this forum. STD's, bj's, hj's, group sex, yup.....she did it all.


----------



## morituri

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What I am saying is that it seems like everybody is jumping to some enormous conclusions about what she did. We don't know what happened, none of us were there but she has already been tried and executed by this forum. STD's, bj's, hj's, group sex, yup.....she did it all.


If the genders were reversed, I doubt that there would be many women members of this forum who would take your view of the events.

When a married woman allows a man other than her husband to rub his private parts over her skin, the boundaries have already been crossed and sexual intercourse, bj, group sex, etc are well within a reasonable conclusion. As I said before even a blind man (or woman) can see this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> If the genders were reversed, I doubt that there would be many women members of this forum who would take your view of the events.
> 
> When a married woman allows a man other than her husband to rub his private parts over her skin, the boundaries have already been crossed and sexual intercourse, bj, group sex, etc are well within a reasonable conclusion. As I said before even a blind man (or woman) can see this.


Again, I never said she didn't cross boundaries. I said that there are differences in what those boundaries are. We can argue this until the sun comes home, the fact is....he's made up his mind.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> If the genders were reversed, I doubt that there would be many women members of this forum who would take your view of the events.QUOTE]
> 
> Yup, there was a thread about this in the reverse and we were told to chill out and it's just a fantasy. So there.
> I think neither sex should go to places like this. Bad all the way around.


----------



## Entropy3000

morituri said:


> It is obvious to a blind man that the two of them share different moral value systems. She pretended to share his when in reality she didn't. That's called *deception* and it's at the root of many marital problems including infidelity which this 'event' shows quite clearly, she committed.


The old bait and switch


----------



## Entropy3000

chillymorn said:


> :iagree:
> 
> you should have banged her when she came home it would have been some of the best sex you guys ever had.
> 
> missed a golden opprutunity:scratchhead:


Most men are not into being cuckolded. That is what that best sex would have been about.


----------



## jayde

Well - JaiMann hasn't chimed in lately. Hopefully he's too busy with the missus to really care what anyone else has to say!


----------



## michzz

I don't think it is reasonable to presume that your wife did more than she stated that she did--as bad as it was for her to do it.

However, preparing in secret to go, changing her clothes in anticipation of it, and having sexual contact of any kind with the stripper, and then coming home all wet and wanting sex? Yuck!

That scenario alone calls into question her motives, her intentions towards you, and apparently her sexual satisfaction in the marriage.

You definitely have a problem on your hands.

Getting all outraged with her and wanting her to say she will never do it again?

Means nothing. See, she wanted to do it. And nothing that transpired made her to not want to do that. proof of that is her sexual excitement to the point of wanting sex with you afterwards.

You just married her, this is extremely significant in this rebellion. She wanted to know if she still has it and wanted a romp.

Her intent was to have contact with the stripper. She thought she would get away with it and dismissed your concerns.

Do you need an STD test? I doubt it, but get one if you feel you need one. They are cheap.

do you need to get your marriage annulled or a divorce?

It depends on your sense of being violated and her expression of regret. And trust going forward.

There are a lot of things at play here. Is this wife who wants another man's unit rubbed on her, but only at parties, worth keeping as a wife?

Only you can decide this.


----------



## AFEH

She’s a psychiatrist. Supposed to be able to help other people in their time of need. But she has no morality and does not respect another’s boundaries, even those of her husband. I for one pity her clients.

Stick to and uphold your core values and beliefs jai_mann, you will never regret it.


----------



## unbelievable

A legitimate boundary is agreed to by both parties. An edict does not constitute a legitimate boundary.


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## AFEH

unbelievable said:


> A legitimate boundary is agreed to by both parties. An edict does not constitute a legitimate boundary.


Mine do Unbelievable. In my life there are things I will not negotiate or compromise. Makes me feel really good.


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## unbelievable

AFEH said:


> Mine do Unbelievable. In my life there are things I will not negotiate or compromise. Makes me feel really good.


I concede we all are free to divorce or commit suicide at will. One doesn't need advise or approval from this forum to do either.


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## AFEH

unbelievable said:


> I concede we all are free to divorce or commit suicide at will. One doesn't need advise or approval from this forum to do either.


Keep faith in yourself even in the toughest of times.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I cannot believe the conclusions that people are jumping to here. It just blows my mind. In any case, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. C'est la vie.


This is why at least some marriages include boundaries and behavior that limit this speculation. i.e. once you cross one boundary it gives the appearance of infidelity. You can say he should trust her. Well he did and she broke his trust.

The root casue of the discussion is really that they did not agree on the boundaries. Rather than agree to boundaries she just went ahead and lied to him.

Let's use me as an example. What if I went to a private party that included strippers. Ok fine so far this is within my marriage boundary of look but don't touch. If I were to go do this I would give my wife a heads up that I was attending. We have already worked out the boundaries but it is respectful to let my wife know. It is not asking permission to go. That said if there was something she was concerned about in a given case we would discuss it.

So what if I then made sure I was more accessible for the strippers. i.e. did not wear underwear or whatever becasue I knew I was going to get some "real action" as was stated above.
Then I got some number of lap dances and who knows how many extras. Suppose I went into the VIP room. If this later came out that I went into the VIP room, what conclusions would my wife make or not make. In a private apartment maybe I went into the bedroom.

So you go "but if your wife trusts you then things should be fine". The problem being that she did trust me and I broke her trust. Trust me hon I just played just the tip. How is this right?
Lying to her and giving her trickle truth. Is that ok?

Anyway, in real life I don't go to strip clubs if I can avoid it. When my team visits DFW they often go at least one night to a strip club. I make sure I drive and head on home after drinks and dinner and let them do their thing. I did the strip club thing when I was in my early 20s before I married. 

That said when I travel I don't have the luxury of driving a separate vehicle. I have talked this out with my wife. So the boundary I am comfortable with is that I will have drinks and look but don't touch. Some other guys, most married do the VIP room thing. Others do not. I hang with the folks who believe that is cheating and we have some drinks and fend off the strippers. I actually hate this. I don't like being rude either. That talking thing is ok but I tell them that they are wasting their time on me and to focus on other potential customers. In general chatting with strippers does not interest me. Sure they are just doing their job. Sure I love the sight of nude women as much as any guy does. I do not accept lap dances that are paid by other folks. I tell the strippers to "pocket" the money.
It is a part of company culture I could do without. I need my job. I woild not attend a private stripper party at an apartment. I don't need my job that badly. A club is one thing. A private party is another. I don't need to have secrets from my wife. I do not need to have pictures of me doing this. That gives power to folks they should not have over me. Yes it is a concern in the hard ball corporate world. 

So it would not be ok for my wife to be groped or be grabbing another mans genitals. If she wanted to go to a strip show where there was no physical interaction with her ... fine. It is fair. She has turned those opportunities down in the past and states she has no intention of attending in the future. 

Private stripper shows for women can be pretty wild. For men too of course. If a woman attends these things and becomes part of the show she opens herself up to question especially when she is lying and going against the wishes of her partner. YMMV.

What do you consider appropriate boundares here?


----------



## Undertheradar

I'm a male...

For starters, I've had a couple experiences with this stuff.

I was a guest at a bachelor party, and all my friends were busy getting STD's in the other room. I chose to be the party pooper,and just have a couple drinks.

Then I had a stripper show up at my office as a birthday gag for me. I dismissed her away from a personal dance, and I politely offered her services into the conference room, for a "company dance" on the conference table. 

Now.... What your wife did could easily be taken a couple ways. 
Your wife could just have gone along with the party, and let her hair down. The guy could have rubbed her this way or that way, and she screamed her guts out like most women do. I've witnessed my own MOTHER get stupid nuts for a stripper many years ago. 

Now, if the line was drawn to point where the stripper simply rubbed this and that, I'll be OK with it. OTOH, ig she had to grab him, and "do things", Id be upset.

I have a suspicion that your wife felt a strong love for you, and realized that maybe she crossed over into unchartered territory, and came home to "forgive herself" of her actions. Not necessarily horny from seeing the stripper.
My wife did this after her EA. She was all over me, and I couldn't understand why. It turned out that her EA was gay, and there never was any contact, yet her guilt made her want me more.

I have a feeling that your wife git this out of her system, and would never go down that road again.

I would suggest a session of apologies from both of you.

I think your actions are justified, and I would have been going nuts at the thought, ..then again, I look around, and see other married women experience this, without issue.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No need to bold and shout at me. I never once said what she did was right, now did I? I find those parties disgusting for both sexes and he has every right to be hurt/angry/etc.
> What I am saying is that it seems like everybody is jumping to some enormous conclusions about what she did. We don't know what happened, none of us were there but she has already been tried and executed by this forum. STD's, bj's, hj's, group sex, yup.....she did it all.


We cannot wildly assume she did not do these things. She put herself in a bad situation. That is the takeaway. If you do that you open yourself up for this. If she is an adult she needs to be accountable for her actions. Period. She did lie and she did cross boundaries. So she gets what she gets which is wild speculation. To assume it was all innocent is a weak view point.
He needs to find out just how far things went OR he can simply say they that she already went too far and move on.

She did this. Not him. She needs to make it right. He trusted her. She broke his trust. All that was said was that he did not need to know what she did. She left it to speculation. She gave him trickle truth. Red Flags.

He will never know bacause of the code. You know the what happens here stays here culture.


----------



## Entropy3000

jayde said:


> Well - JaiMann hasn't chimed in lately. Hopefully he's too busy with the missus to really care what anyone else has to say!


He may have a job. He may even be writing a pyschology paper on the reactions on this forum. Idunno.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> We cannot wildly assume she did not do these things. She put herself in a bad situation. That is the takeaway. If you do that you open yourself up for this. If she is an adult she needs to be accountable for her actions. Period. She did lie and she did cross boundaries. So she gets what she gets which is wild speculation. To assume it was all innocent is a weak view point.
> He needs to find out just how far things went OR he can simply say they that she already went too far and move on.
> 
> She did this. Not him. She needs to make it right. He trusted her. She broke his trust. All that was said was that he did not need to know what she did. She left it to speculation. She gave him trickle truth. Red Flags.
> 
> He will never know bacause of the code. You know the what happens here stays here culture.


I guess I don't see things in the extreme then. Yes she crossed a boundary but if she behaved like what I have seen at most parties, it is a bunch of women laughing and having fun and watching some guy dance around and grind on the most shy person. It isn't a gang bang or an orgy but that's what every body assumes and the OP as well so no need to discuss further.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I guess I don't see things in the extreme then. Yes she crossed a boundary but if she behaved like what I have seen at most parties, it is a bunch of women laughing and having fun and watching some guy dance around and grind on the most shy person. It isn't a gang bang or an orgy but that's what every body assumes and the OP as well so no need to discuss further.


Should he assume this? She did not want to share anything of what she did. He will likely never see the pictures. Yes they exist.

I am not assuming that she did any more than she admits to. Is it likely she did more. Maybe. But all those other things can and do happen at times. The private nature of the party is the thing. By its nature it is secret fun with a man or men. It was not in a club. Yes, things can and do happen in clubs but the real deal is at private parties. No limits.

So where is the boundary? Totally nude guy grinding on women wearing bikini tops? Lets be honest some women do dress special for these. Not all but some. Sans various garments. 

Are you in favor of CFNM parties, which is what this is? Are you ok with women in various states of undress during these parties?

At the tamest there are simulated sex acts. A male dominating the female in such a way she is playing being submissive to him. Add serious alcohol consumption .... oh boy.

Can I assume that hj's, bj's are not part of acceptable behavior? I think you are saying that has not happened at the CFNM parties you have attended. ( yes I switched to CFNM on purpose ).

Does the most shy person wear a bikini top just to show how shy she is? I think the bikini top is a significant thing here. It was thought through. It does not sound like a shy women being grinded on, but rather someone looking for some real "bachelorette activity". All good fun. Nothing sexual of course.
Just a guy with a big erection and a c0ck ring to keep it that way for the ladies to enjoy.

Is this ok for guys too? Strippers in a private party? It is for a lot of couples. Fine.

Actually this activity is not the issue. The issue is that it is done in the contect of a marriages where one partner does not condone it. They do have some things to get settled in their marriages and agree on boundaries whatever they are. I am not judging the behavior other than this is what the husband objects to. If he was ok with it, then to each their own.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> I am not assuming that she did any more than she admits to. Is it likely she did more. Maybe. But all those other things can and do happen at times. The private nature of the party is the thing. By its nature it is secret fun with a man or men. It was not in a club. Yes, things can and do happen in clubs but the real deal is at private parties. No limits.
> 
> So where is the boundary? Totally nude guy grinding on women wearing bikini tops? Lets be honest some women do dress special for these. Not all but some. Sans various garments.
> 
> Are you in favor of CFNM parties, which is what this is? Are you ok with women in various states of undress during these parties?
> 
> At the tamest there are simulated sex acts. A male dominating the female in such a way she is playing being submissive to him. Add serious alcohol consumption .... oh boy.
> 
> Can I assume that hj's, bj's are not part of acceptable behavior? I think you are saying that has not happened at the CFNM parties you have attended. ( yes I switched to CFNM on purpose ).
> 
> Does the most shy person wear a bikini top just to show how shy she is? I think the bikini top is a significant thing here. It was thought through. It does not sound like a shy women being grinded on, but rather someone looking for some real "bachelorette activity". All good fun. Nothing sexual of course.
> Just a guy with a big erection and a c0ck ring to keep it that way for the ladies to enjoy.
> 
> Is this ok for guys too? Strippers in a private party?


Do you just follow me around TAM? 

I already posted that I have a serious issue with these parties, men and women. I don't like them and although I have gone, it isn't my favorite way of spending a Friday night.
We already agree that she lied and covered up her behavior. I think she was/is ashamed. I don't think things went any further than she described but even that is a dealbreaker for her husband and I respect that. She knew his dealbreaker and did it anyways. Not cool at all. 
Not to get away from the subject too much but there are alot of people here who crucified this woman but then tell other women here who have issues with strip clubs that it's just letting off steam. Table dances and lap dances = letting off steam. A dude grinding on a woman's back = std. Gotcha.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Do you just follow me around TAM?
> 
> I already posted that I have a serious issue with these parties, men and women. I don't like them and although I have gone, it isn't my favorite way of spending a Friday night.
> We already agree that she lied and covered up her behavior. I think she was/is ashamed. I don't think things went any further than she described but even that is a dealbreaker for her husband and I respect that. She knew his dealbreaker and did it anyways. Not cool at all.
> Not to get away from the subject too much but there are alot of people here who crucified this woman but then tell other women here who have issues with strip clubs that it's just letting off steam. Table dances and lap dances = letting off steam. A dude grinding on a woman's back = std. Gotcha.


I have already asked myself this question Bright Eyes. 

I hope I do not. That said, we both gravitate towards certain threads. I find bantoring with you interesting. So maybe there is my answer. I don't mind someone who can make me rethink my position. You do that well. 

I don't like double standards. Men and women are different but I think it is important to have balance in what is expected from each partner. It is about respect.


----------



## MrK

BrightEyes continues to be less than honest in her posts: She doesn't do anything inappropriate when out clubbing so husbands shouldn't fear their wives doing it. Even though real life says there is a better than average chance they are, ESPECIALy when secrecy and a few lies are thrown in. 

She just see's a lot of giggly girls getting embarrassed during the CFNM parties she's attended. Even though she knows that's the exception, she insists the partier be given the benefit of the doubt, even when secrecy, premeditation and lies run rampant in the story.

Two threads on wives potentially acting inappropriately and she says the odds are nothing happened when it is blatantly NOT the case in both instances.

Why do you do that? Is it because you're a clubber / frequenter of male strip shows and you feel it's your obligation to do your best to make them seem innocent? I don't understnad your way of thinking and "helping"


----------



## Conrad

Entropy3000 said:


> I have already asked myself this question Bright Eyes.
> 
> I hope I do not. That said, we both gravitate towards certain threads. I find bantoring with you interesting. So maybe there is my answer. I don't mind someone who can make me rethink my position. You do that well.
> 
> I don't like double standards. Men and women are different but I think it is important to have balance in what is expected from each partner. It is about respect.


Actually it's about commitment.

If you find someone who is "too sensitive" for you, don't get involved in a long-term relationship with them.

If you find your partner saying far too often "live with it" when you wish they'd be saying - "wow, I never thought of it that way"

Might be best to part.

The resentment that springs when someone doesn't care what you think will - eventually - overwhelm the relationship in some shape, manner, or form.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MrK said:


> BrightEyes continues to be less than honest in her posts: She doesn't do anything inappropriate when out clubbing so husbands shouldn't fear their wives doing it. Even though real life says there is a better than average chance they are, ESPECIALy when secrecy and a few lies are thrown in.
> 
> She just see's a lot of giggly girls getting embarrassed during the CFNM parties she's attended. Even though she knows that's the exception, she insists the partier be given the benefit of the doubt, even when secrecy, premeditation and lies run rampant in the story.
> 
> Two threads on wives potentially acting inappropriately and she says the odds are nothing happened when it is blatantly NOT the case in both instances.
> 
> Why do you do that? Is it because you're a clubber / frequenter of male strip shows and you feel it's your obligation to do your best to make them seem innocent? I don't understnad your way of thinking and "helping"


Clearly you don't read my posts. If anything I am more honest than necessary. You seem to be the only one who thinks otherwise.
Clubber and patron of strip clubs? Yeah, you caught me. I work for ther PR department at Chippendale's and gosh, business is down what with the economy and all I need to come here and drum up business.


----------



## Deejo

Fair warning ...

Speculation, exaggeration, baiting and name calling.

Stop.


----------



## Entropy3000

Conrad said:


> Actually it's about commitment.
> 
> If you find someone who is "too sensitive" for you, don't get involved in a long-term relationship with them.
> 
> If you find your partner saying far too often "live with it" when you wish they'd be saying - "wow, I never thought of it that way"
> 
> Might be best to part.
> 
> The resentment that springs when someone doesn't care what you think will - eventually - overwhelm the relationship in some shape, manner, or form.


Wondermous! :iagree:


----------



## Scannerguard

J'ai Mann,

I won't get into the ins and outs of this discussion (got to page 2 and listening to you justify) but I am kind of informing you. . .you sound like a Conservative guy. 

This forum leans liberal with sexual mores so mostly (not everyone), you are going to get responses biased towards that.

I am not saying that with judgment or trying to rile up the forum (liberal has become a word equated to communist in the 50's thanks to Rush Limbaugh). I consider myself pretty Moderate when it comes to sexual mores.

You're fiancee sounds liberal (or moderate) with her sexual mores.

I don't think the two of you are a match. So, why tie the knot and end up with a divorce?

In fact, sometimes Moderates drive Conservatives and Liberals more crazy than the polar opposites because you never know where we are exactly coming from and we kind of go on an issue by issue basis with morality.

Find a more Conservative woman.


----------



## Scannerguard

Oops. ..re-read - you're married.

Welcome to prison.

Here's your orange suit.


----------



## WhiteRabbit

Well I think you're all a bunch up uptight prudes!!! Kidding  don't shoot!

Being serious... H and I didn't do the "last party" crap before we got married bc of the ickiness that comes along with it. With that said, we DID go to a few strip clubs with groups of friends occasionally and had a blast. But we were BOTH there and we agreed in boundaries ahead of time. 

Now this woman knew her husband very well prior to this party incident. She knew his views on things and actually portrayed herself as sharing these views. I don't think she lied about sharing the views but people do grow and change...perhaps she is changing her views on things. 
What she did was really a blow to the foundation of morals and beliefs they built together. Going to a party with a stripper present may not seem like a big deal to people who have spouses that will cheat with anything that moves their way but to him, it is HUGE. I'm the first one to raise my fist and say I will do whatever I want and go out wherever I want. But there has to be a line you don't cross out of respect for not just your spouse but for yourself and your relationship. 
While the way you express yourself may come off sort of hoity-toity and a smidge controlling...I don't think that's how you meant it. I see you as someone who is hurt that his wife didn't stop to consider the morals and beliefs the two of you built your relationship on throughout the years before letting some oiled up Fabio man roll his bits n pieces all over her. These are the things that add up to very large problems and the eventual breakdown of your marriage. These issues need to be addressed and explored before they cause damage you can't repair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lonelyman

jai_mann said:


> So I'm new here. I'll search the threads for similar cases after I post my situation.
> 
> I've been married for just over 2 months. I've been with the same lady (30yrs old) for the past 8 years. She's always been faithful and generally forthright (some times I have to pry things out of her). She's in psychiatry. My own back ground is psychology with an emphasis on behaviorism. So, clearly, even the supposed experts have their issues...
> 
> I've made myself pretty clear on what I feel are failing standards in society and the promotion of degeneracy via the media. My wife has been hearing this for several years now as my concern for society and the youth grows. And yet, she decided to go to a bachelorette party 2 nights ago, when she knew a male stripper would be there and that I absolutely frowned upon these things.
> 
> The morning when she came back she tried "getting close" to me while I was sleeping, and she never does this unless she wants to make love. I was exhausted and furious with her for going to that thing, when she had the opportunity to leave after dinner and a club, but instead she went back to the apartment where this guy shows up.
> 
> She has had the nerve to tell me that I didn't need to know the details of what happened with her there, and she has repeatedly lied about the entire experience which initially went from, "I didn't know there would be a stripper there until we left the club" to acknowledging that it was in the evite which she left up on our desktop. She was clearly excited as it would be "real bachelorette action".
> 
> She initially lied and told me the stripper didn't do any thing to her. But I got a confession out of her that she had put on a bikini top beforehand, which was clearly for skin contact. And eventually she indicated that he had rubbed his genitals on her back (he had a thong on, big whoop). Obviously, after much teeth pulling I got more facts and I don't think that I've heard the last of it.
> 
> She claimed that it was awkward, horrible, and disgusting, but I pointed out to her that if this was the case she could have left at any time. She willingly went along with all of this. She's sorry she got caught essentially. But not sorry about what she did. Again, she had the nerve to come home to me all stimulated and wake me up in the morning. I'm completely disgusted with her and I've told her that she has crossed a line which I don't know if our marriage will withstand.
> 
> I'm planning on seeing how truthful and honest she is regarding the issue further, mainly to see if she is willing to attempt to rebuild my trust by telling me what happened (and if I'm further outraged by her acts I'll know if I even want to try to salvage this thing). I've been calm and analytical with her which has made her lies transparent.
> 
> I honestly don't know if I can repair things as the wound is deep and my trust is damaged to the core. I am willing to give more information if people ask as I'm really here to get feed back from others and to try to cope with having my heart broken by the girl who I once thought was so virtuous.
> 
> Please feel free to comment or ask questions.
> 
> Thanks in advance as I have yet to speak to any one else about this. Part of me wants to get her to talk to her parents about it with me present as we are supposed to have a delayed wedding reception with my folks on the east coast. I don't want to create resentment but she's very clearly been disrespectful and untruthful to me. She said a number of times before I got the more graphic information out of her that I was making a big deal out of nothing. She knew how I felt about that sort of thing and she spent july 4th back with her ****ty friend who is the bride to be, and that friend was telling her the same thing (some friend, and I pity the future hubby).
> 
> Enough for now. Comments are appreciated...


if this happened to my fiance it wouldnt bother me one bit, but thats just my opinion


----------



## Entropy3000

lonelyman said:


> if this happened to my fiance it wouldnt bother me one bit, but thats just my opinion


He is married to her. Not a fiance. Not questioning you weighing in but while you would be ok with this activity, he is not. So in your case she would have your blessing and that would be all well and good. 

What if she did something more that crossed your boundaries and she lied about it? Would you be ok with her doing that? You are just stating you have different boundaries than he does.

His boundaries were crossed and he is surprised that her boundaries are not what he perceived based on an eight year relationship.


----------



## MardiGrasMambo

*I only read the first page* 

You should have banged her brains out and after you were done you should have told her that she would never get sex like that ever again if she went against your wishes...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> He is married to her. Not a fiance. Not questioning you weighing in but while you would be ok with this activity, he is not. So in your case she would have your blessing and that would be all well and good.
> 
> What if she did something more that crossed your boundaries and she lied about it? Would you be ok with her doing that? You are just staing you have different boundaries than he does.
> 
> His boundaries were crossed and he is surprised that her boundaries are not what he perceived based on and eight year relationship.


I agree with you. We all have boundaries and having your spouse cross them leaves a lot in question. He is well within his right to be upset/hurt/confused.
I've given this post more thought and yeah, that was really selfish of her. It is one thing if he had been to parties like this and then put his foot down for her to go but that isn't the case. 8 years and they both knew what is/was expected of the other. 
Having said that, I am sure that his imagination is running wild right now and I don't blame him at all. While some parties like this get out of hand, most do not and perhaps that should be taken in to consideration? :scratchhead:
Either way, if it's a deal breaker, that's it. I have deal breakers that others would find ridiculous but for me, cross that line and I am gone. Period.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I agree with you. We all have boundaries and having your spouse cross them leaves a lot in question. He is well within his right to be upset/hurt/confused.
> I've given this post more thought and yeah, that was really selfish of her. It is one thing if he had been to parties like this and then put his foot down for her to go but that isn't the case. 8 years and they both knew what is/was expected of the other.
> Having said that, I am sure that his imagination is running wild right now and I don't blame him at all. *While some parties like this get out of hand, most do not and perhaps that should be taken in to consideration?* :scratchhead:
> Either way, if it's a deal breaker, that's it. I have deal breakers that others would find ridiculous but for me, cross that line and I am gone. Period.


A very reasonable statement for sure. He should take that into consideration. He cannot assume the worst nor bury his head in the sand. They need to talk this through.

I actually think he can still work this out with her. They need to decide whether they can come to agreement on boundaries and still lead a happy life together. Maybe she can help him through it by being completely honest as to what did go on. Only he knows what a deal breaker is for him. They both have to be willing. It is a shame to throw away eight years. There must be some other issues they are having for her to do this that need addressing.


----------



## Halien

WhiteRabbit said:


> Well I think you're all a bunch up uptight prudes!!! Kidding  don't shoot!
> 
> I see you as someone who is hurt that his wife didn't stop to consider the morals and beliefs the two of you built your relationship on throughout the years before letting some oiled up Fabio man roll his bits n pieces all over her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frankly, us Fabio types are so misunderstood. Don't we have a right to put food on our table? Its certainly understandable that women would prefer to lick it from between our steel-like abs, but don't blame us for her preferences. And trust me, nowhere does the term 'bits and pieces' apply to our bodies. 

Just kidding!! I honestly don't know where these come from sometimes.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> A very reasonable statement for sure. He should take that into consideration. He cannot assume the worst nor bury his head in the sand. They need to talk this through.
> 
> I actually think he can still work this out with her. They need to decide whether they can come to agreement on boundaries and still lead a happy life together. Maybe she can help him through it by being completely honest as to what did go on. Only he knows what a deal breaker is for him. They both have to be willing. It is a shame to throw away eight years. There must be some other issues they are having for her to do this that need addressing.


The problem is the trust is broken. Whatever she now says will not be believed. He will think she still holding back and he will have "mind movies" of what happened. While I don't think more happened, it doesn't matter what we think (as he pointed out).....it matters what he thinks and he already said he is disgusted with her. That's a hell of a road to come back from. 
I was wrong to take the angle I did earlier. So what if "nothing more" happened? He has been betrayed and she was the one who did that.


----------



## Whip Morgan

In the scope of threads I've seen at TAM, I certainly consider this an issue that can be worked through. If he decides he has gotten the complete story from her, she has shown true regret at breaking his trust and puts forth willingess to work on the marriage, then I see hope in this story. 

However, since I've started lurking on TAM, almost every incident, there is usually more to the story than what a spouse caught lying has told. Whether or not more happened, the damage is done. The scene was certainly set for more things to happen. Red flags are red flags.

And those friends the wife was with at this party? I hope she doesn't want to go out with them in the future for that "Girls Night Out"...


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The problem is the trust is broken. Whatever she now says will not be believed. He will think she still holding back and he will have "mind movies" of what happened. While I don't think more happened, it doesn't matter what we think (as he pointed out).....it matters what he thinks and he already said he is disgusted with her. That's a hell of a road to come back from.
> I was wrong to take the angle I did earlier. So what if "nothing more" happened? He has been betrayed and she was the one who did that.


Wow. We are flip-flopping on this. Interesting. Yes, there is a lost trust. How much I don't know. Trust can be regained. There has been some level of betrayal.

Through most of my marriage I was a Superman. My wife could trust me 100% BUT, I found my kryptonite. No excuses, but I let myself fall into what I realized later was an EA. We were just friends. It felt fine.

My wife saw the signs. Hit me up side the head and called me on it. She saved our marriage. I did not realize what I was into until I started coming out of withdrawing from the other person.

My wife and I did the His Needs Her Needs thing. I learned about boundaries after that. I had some but thought I was always in control and my love for my wife and high character would save me .... and bluh!

I F'd up and had to deal with it. I am not perfect. I thought I was I guess. I only recently at my wife's urging have truly forgiven myself. It took a long long time.

I dare say my marriage is better than it ever has been. I am a wiser and much better husband now. My wife is wiser as well. However her actions show that she actually has greater trust for me now than before. 

This experience has made me a more compassionate person when dealing with this stuff. Forgiving as well. I come off very hard line becasue I feel that if caught soon enough relationships can be saved before they blow up. I encourage SOs to intervene for the benefit of both parties. It is lazy to have 100% blind trust in anyone.

So as you say I have a dim view. I guess so. But it is the context of my own failure that I entreat those otherwise good people to avoid such failure. Good people do fail. Their ego gets in their way sometimes. They know they are good and just cannot envision a failure on their part. 

So these folks can work it out. Trust can be regained. It does not have to be too late. They can decide this.


----------



## Entropy3000

Whip Morgan said:


> In the scope of threads I've seen at TAM, I certainly consider this an issue that can be worked through. If he decides he has gotten the complete story from her, she has shown true regret at breaking his trust and puts forth willingess to work on the marriage, then I see hope in this story.
> 
> However, since I've started lurking on TAM, almost every incident, there is usually more to the story than what a spouse caught lying has told. Whether or not more happened, the damage is done. The scene was certainly set for more things to happen. Red flags are red flags.
> 
> *And those friends the wife was with at this party? I hope she doesn't want to go out with them in the future for that "Girls Night Out"...*


Yep. :iagree:

Some "friends" can be toxic to a marriage.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Op, only got to page 2. I am surprised at all the remarks myself.

What she did is WRONG.

That is sad she would treat you like this.

Marriage counseling?


----------



## Entropy3000

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> Op, only got to page 2. I am surprised at all the remarks myself.
> 
> What she did is WRONG.
> 
> That is sad she would treat you like this.
> 
> Marriage counseling?


These two could tear a MC apart. LOL.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Entropy3000 said:


> These two could tear a MC apart. LOL.


lol

Maybe I should read the other 6 pages?
:lol:


----------



## Entropy3000

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> lol
> 
> Maybe I should read the other 6 pages?
> :lol:


Just kidding .... BUT

The wife is a pyschiatrist the other in the pyschology field.

Obviosuly strong willed folks. No doubt intelligent.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Wow. We are flip-flopping on this. Interesting. .


I am not flip flopping in any way. I never once said it was okay for her to go to something that clearly was a boundary issue for him, now did I? Not once. 

What I defended against was a bunch of guys who came here and likened this to a gang bang and [email protected] and that she now has diseases. Also the hypocrisy of the ones who posted here who tell us to chill out when men go to strip clubs and bachelor parties as just guys "bonding time".

Seriously? You are getting married and your last chance of "freedom" involves half dressed people that grind on you for money?! It's just downright pathetic.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Good point Brennan. Unfortunately, how could anyone reasonably expect Jai to believe what his wife said is true, and that nothing else occurred? Another consequence of when a spouse lies to the other. 

Yes, there are plenty of parties where women have fun but do not cross boundaries of married behavior. However, Mrs. Jai knew what her husband expected and decided to cross the lines, then lie about it. It is not unreasonable to suspect further activity occurred when these red flags are flying right in Jai's face.

Over in Infidelity, its all about "red flags" and "trickle truth". People that post on this thread have read enough on TAM to question Mrs. Jai's story. No one should get vicious, though. Hopefully Jai can take a few days for the immediate anger to subside to have a productive discussion with Mrs. Jai. I'm hoping he doesn't come back here saying "there was more that she finally told me" or "I discovered more details". Unfortunately, we've all seen quite a bit of that on TAM.

In these boards, smoke almost always leads to fire.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am not flip flopping in any way. I never once said it was okay for her to go to something that clearly was a boundary issue for him, now did I? Not once.
> 
> What I defended against was a bunch of guys who came here and likened this to a gang bang and [email protected] and that she now has diseases. Also the hypocrisy of the ones who posted here who tell us to chill out when men go to strip clubs and bachelor parties as just guys "bonding time".
> 
> Seriously? You are getting married and your last chance of "freedom" involves half dressed people that grind on you for money?! It's just downright pathetic.


C'mon, I went through one of these really expensive training programs and found that the perfect answer for almost any scenario is "It depends..." Just don't forget the little head tilt, because it insures confidence. Never have to worry about flip flopping again. Just try it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am not flip flopping in any way. I never once said it was okay for her to go to something that clearly was a boundary issue for him, now did I? Not once.
> 
> What I defended against was a bunch of guys who came here and likened this to a gang bang and [email protected] and that she now has diseases. Also the hypocrisy of the ones who posted here who tell us to chill out when men go to strip clubs and bachelor parties as just guys "bonding time".
> 
> *Seriously? You are getting married and your last chance of "freedom" involves half dressed people that grind on you for money?! It's just downright pathetic.*


Fair enough. You did give the whole thing some further thought which is fine. I did as well. My focus was first on pointing out there was indeed an issue. Did my usual lets see what the extremes could be. That is just me. I find the max and min points and then focus in between and see what may be a reasonable conclusion in between the extremes.

We still have no idea what actually took place.

By the time one is getting married the commitment is already there. You are not "single". A ceremony does take place later but you are already in a commited relationship.
So for men and women a party of debauchery seems the worst thing to celebrate a commitment. 

But bachelor and bachelorette parties are not just for bride and groom. They are for single and married people alike. Many of these people expect strippers and some prostitutes. The parties range in both directions in extremes. Mild to yes gang bangs. They readily get out of hand. Many people reporting having a blast but do not want thier SO to know what they did and with whom. I find that F'd up. It must work for some folks. To each their own.

Strippers do nothing for me. I think it is pathetic to pay money for someone to grind on you as well. I am not particularly interested in talking with someone who grinds on people for money. I don't care if they claim to be in pre-law at UT or not.


----------



## Entropy3000

Whip Morgan said:


> Good point Brennan. Unfortunately, how could anyone reasonably expect Jai to believe what his wife said is true, and that nothing else occurred? Another consequence of when a spouse lies to the other.
> 
> Yes, there are plenty of parties where women have fun but do not cross boundaries of married behavior. However, Mrs. Jai knew what her husband expected and decided to cross the lines, then lie about it. It is not unreasonable to suspect further activity occurred when these red flags are flying right in Jai's face.
> 
> Over in Infidelity, its all about "red flags" and "trickle truth". People that post on this thread have read enough on TAM to question Mrs. Jai's story. No one should get vicious, though. Hopefully Jai can take a few days for the immediate anger to subside to have a productive discussion with Mrs. Jai. I'm hoping he doesn't come back here saying "there was more that she finally told me" or "I discovered more details". Unfortunately, we've all seen quite a bit of that on TAM.
> 
> In these boards, smoke almost always leads to fire.


He may never post again. But I would not be shocked if he came forward with some additional more radical trickle truth.

So you may have covered this, but what in your opinion is the typical goings on at the private parties. I know it ranges a lot.

Maybe this is another thread. But I am thinking that private parties usually mean full monty. Maybe multiple strippers.
Some simulated sex. Some oli rubbing and some whip cream action. Maybe some kissing. A good amount of groping.
Probably varies from state to state what is legal.

How about the type of party where a woman would wear a bikini top.

If I am out of bounds here. I retract the question.


----------



## Whip Morgan

I have seen both bachelor and bachelorette parties where everyone had a fun time, danced, drank, etc. But were responsible and remembered why they were celebrating. Many men and women can and do have fun w/o having a stripper present. My BILs BP was a baseball game. I've seen bachelorette parties where they have a nice dinner and are back in by 11PM and enjoying drinks on the pool deck.

However, I've also been witness to inappropriate behavior, the exact opposite of what any man/woman would expect a spouse-to-be to act like. No regard for the honesty and committment to a person they're pledging their love to. Above all others.

From what Jai has described, Mrs. Jai's party (which she knew of ahead of time and participated in) belongs in the latter category. I have a bias against the "Girls Night Out". I completely do. I did not approve of them before I found TAM, and I sure as sh*t don't care for them now. I'm also against husbands that go out to bars consistently, and especially strip clubs. That is a place that if a person goes to, the spouse should be present. 

However, when I think that way, I tend to paint all woman with the same brush, and that isn't fair. A woman can go out and have fun w/o acting inappropriately. So can a man. Nights out can be fun. Sounds like Mrs. Jai had fun alright, but by completely throwing out any respect for her husband. Same goes for the other women at this party who are either married or in a relationship. However, we have no idea if other women were uncomfortable and left. Unfortunately, Mrs. Jai was not one of them.


----------



## Entropy3000

Whip Morgan said:


> I have seen both bachelor and bachelorette parties where everyone had a fun time, danced, drank, etc. But were responsible and remembered why they were celebrating. Many men and women can and do have fun w/o having a stripper present. My BILs BP was a baseball game. I've seen bachelorette parties where they have a nice dinner and are back in by 11PM and enjoying drinks on the pool deck.
> 
> However, I've also been witness to inappropriate behavior, the exact opposite of what any man/woman would expect a spouse-to-be to act like. No regard for the honesty and committment to a person they're pledging their love to. Above all others.
> 
> From what Jai has described, Mrs. Jai's party (which she knew of ahead of time and participated in) belongs in the latter category. I have a bias against the "Girls Night Out". I completely do. I did not approve of them before I found TAM, and I sure as sh*t don't care for them now. I'm also against husbands that go out to bars consistently, and especially strip clubs. That is a place that if a person goes to, the spouse should be present.
> 
> However, when I think that way, I tend to paint all woman with the same brush, and that isn't fair. A woman can go out and have fun w/o acting inappropriately. So can a man. Nights out can be fun. Sounds like Mrs. Jai had fun alright, but by completely throwing out any respect for her husband. Same goes for the other women at this party who are either married or in a relationship. However, we have no idea if other women were uncomfortable and left. Unfortunately, Mrs. Jai was not one of them.


Deftly put! Yet clear. Just checking my own radar on this against someone else who may have better insight to this stuff.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Entropy3000 said:


> He may never post again. But I would not be shocked if he came forward with some additional more radical trickle truth.
> 
> So you maybe you have covered this, but what in your opinion is the typical goings on at the private parties. I know it ranges a lot.
> 
> Maybe this is another thread. But I am thinking that private parties usually mean full monty. Maybe multiple strippers.
> Some simulated sex. Some oli rubbing and some whip cream action. Maybe some kissing. A good amount of groping.
> Probably varies from state to state what is legal.
> 
> How about the type of party where a woman would wear a bikini top.
> 
> If I am out of bounds here. I retract the question.


Ent, I know that there are strippers and companies that arrange these private parties that follow strict guidelines in interaction with the female audience. Doesn't sound like this party was one of them.

But we'll never really know. A constant trait shared by the bachelorette parties (and "girls night" groups) that I felt were acting inappropriately for married/committed women was that the husbands would never be told what truly happened throughout the event. Some you could tell by their behavior, some would openly say it. Almost bragging about it. I don't see many bachelor parties, but those types of groups exist also. I don't consider this a male/female thing. 

I think you're right to consider going from min-max. How many stories could be found here where a spouse says something along the lines of "I never would have thought he/she could do this!" The facts that Jai was able to extract from his wife's lies just do not paint a picture of an innocent party. Was this the kind of event that you can see in internet porn, the "CFNM" ? Who knows. But like I said earlier, red flags are red flags. Something wasnt right. No spouse in a healthy marriage or acting respectfully to his/her spouse would declare "you dont need to know".


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Fair enough. You did give the whole thing some further thought which is fine. I did as well. My focus was first on pointing out there was indeed an issue. Did my usual lets see what the extremes could be. That is just me. I find the max and min points and then focus in between and see what may be a reasonable conclusion in between the extremes.
> 
> We still have no idea what actually took place.
> 
> By the time one is getting married the commitment is already there. You are not "single". A ceremony does take place later but you are already in a commited relationship.
> So for men and women a party of debauchery seems the worst thing to celebrate a commitment.
> 
> But bachelor and bachelorette parties are not just for bride and groom. They are for single and married people alike. Many of these people expect strippers and some prostitutes. The parties range in both directions in extremes. Mild to yes gang bangs. They readily get out of hand. Many people reporting having a blast but do not want thier SO to know what they did and with whom. I find that F'd up. It must work for some folks. To each their own.
> 
> Strippers do nothing for me. I think it is pathetic to pay money for someone to grind on you as well. I am not particularly interested in talking with someone who grinds on people for money. I don't care if they claim to be in pre-law at UT or not.


I couldn't give a crap what people "expect". My husband was "expected" to have strippers at his party yet instead he had two poker dealers, proper tables and a bartender. I was "expected" to have men fling off their thongs in my face, yet I had a skiing day with my friends.
It wasn't about my friends, ever. It was about us. If they wanted skanks, don't bother showing up.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I couldn't give a crap what people "expect". My husband was "expected" to have strippers at his party yet instead he had two poker dealers, proper tables and a bartender. I was "expected" to have men fling off their thongs in my face, yet I had a skiing day with my friends.
> It wasn't about my friends, ever. It was about us. If they wanted skanks, don't bother showing up.


I actually expect folks to be adult enough to do exactly what you are saying. Only the very weak in my opinion would bow to peer pressure to the point of crossing reasonable boundaries.

From the guys point of view I would incorporate a sporting event and/or maybe do like your hubby.


----------



## Entropy3000

Whip Morgan said:


> Ent, I know that there are strippers and companies that arrange these private parties that follow strict guidelines in interaction with the female audience. Doesn't sound like this party was one of them.
> 
> But we'll never really know. A constant trait shared by the bachelorette parties (and "girls night" groups) that I felt were acting inappropriately for married/committed women was that the husbands would never be told what truly happened throughout the event. Some you could tell by their behavior, some would openly say it. Almost bragging about it. I don't see many bachelor parties, but those types of groups exist also. I don't consider this a male/female thing.
> 
> I think you're right to consider going from min-max. How many stories could be found here where a spouse says something along the lines of "I never would have thought he/she could do this!" The facts that Jai was able to extract from his wife's lies just do not paint a picture of an innocent party. Was this the kind of event that you can see in internet porn, the "CFNM" ? Who knows. But like I said earlier, red flags are red flags. Something wasnt right. No spouse in a healthy marriage or acting respectfully to his/her spouse would declare "you dont need to know".


I feel lame for asking but since by design these are secret women only events it is hard to know what the deal really is. I have no doubt that what is admittied to is pretty much only a percentage of the truth.

The OP also indicated he has some physical issues that may be impacting him. So his wife looking for attention from a male stripper type would be particularly emasculating to him. Maybe that is strong word but it should hit him in the face in a not so nice way. The other side of the coin is that she is acting out in a way that shows she is looking for this type of excitement. The challenge to getting back together is not just in sweeping this under the rug but in dealing with these aspects head on.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> I actually expect folks to be adult enough to do exactly what you are saying. Only the very weak in my opinion would bow to peer pressure to the point of crossing reasonable boundaries.
> 
> From the guys point of view I would incorporate a sporting event and/or maybe do like your hubby.


I find it interesting that you didn't respond to my post about hypocrisy. It is okay for a man to go out with buddies and engage in this activity but not for a woman. What's the difference?
FWIW, I find ALL of this to be disgusting and yes, it's one of my deal breakers.


----------



## jai_mann

piqued said:


> well, at the core there are two things here. The first is how does he square his values with his wife's misstep. I agree with what was posted above, through the course of your future marriage there will probably be greater challenges than this one. It's up to you to decide if this one night of letting her hair down has completely spoiled your opinion of what you've otherwise described as a great lady.


I fully agree with you. We talked a lot more last night and today. She basically spilled the beans last night as I said I was simply giving her rope and if she wanted to hang herself it was up to her. If she was honest with me then we could work from there but the honesty was a must. So, I will finish commenting on the rest of what you have said and post a separate update at the end of this thread which has grown enormously (thanks for all of the feed back folks, and please understand that as I have gotten more information and processed that in light of the other information I have a much more solid idea of where I want to go with this.)



piqued said:


> As to her decision to attend the stripper portion of the evening, this would seem to indicate that there is something lacking in her life, and it could or could not be sexual. And, to be fair to her and yourself, this might be brought on by something you are or are not doing. Perhaps she just wanted a chance to experience something she hasn't, perhaps even as she shares your views she was rebelling against the strong and controlling manner in which you voice them, perhaps sexually she was in a rut and just wanted some excitement.


This is absolutely, directly tied in with it. I already knew this aspect of things but she's so submissive, and has a meek personality that she didn't communicate those needs well with me. Her needs were definitely sexual, that's a given from her behavior, and I accept that.

When I first posted to this forum I mentioned that I have a chronic injury of 8 years. This injury is in my tendons where my hamstring and adductor muscles attach at my gluts and inner groin area. It hasn't completely prevented us from being intimate, and we have usually been able to do things once or twice a week, but this past month has been brutal on me. We had not done any thing all month. I literally had tinnitus start in my ears about 3 weeks ago which I think is from clinching my jaws, unintentionally, from the chronic pain over the last 2 years. And then I was sick for a week about 1.5 weeks ago. So her sex drive was up.



piqued said:


> The actions and the deception are definite issues to work through, and they obviously leave a mark. But, in dealing with those don't lose sight of the underlying REASON for the actions. You may have played an unwitting role in that as well.


Her initial lies and telling me it wasn't my concern were, after my own review, and in my humble opinion, because she was scared and embarrassed about me knowing what happened. I do think that her spending most of the day, 2 days after, with her bride to be friend influenced her decision to try to keep it from me as she really is a submissive person and her friend probably drilled her to keep her mouth shut.

I'll post my general update next.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I find it interesting that you didn't respond to my post about hypocrisy. It is okay for a man to go out with buddies and engage in this activity but not for a woman. What's the difference?
> FWIW, I find ALL of this to be disgusting and yes, it's one of my deal breakers.


Bright Eyes. I started t answer this. BUT it is really hijacking this thread. 

I suggest you start a thread on this topic and I will incriminate myself for sure. Tomorrow.


----------



## jai_mann

GENERAL UPDATE:

Many of you have responded and I plan on reading through every single post after I give a general update of things. Thank you all for feedback, I am appreciate of your time.

Please look at my post just prior to this which describes my chronic injury and the ~1 month with out any intimacy.

So I think I know more facts at this point and I will mention those at this point. She has divulged to me that this guy kept his thong on and only a couple of the girls got "rides" from him. I don't know if she did or not. She claims she didn't but she also said he never did any thing to her. Then she revealed that he had his genitals on her back. Last night she revealed that he had put his groin in her face (all supposedly covered). She's only been to one strip club in her life, years ago, and it was females only-with her cousin and the cousin's fiance.

I was literally going to say that I had the strong impression that she thought she was going to be a spectator because she had to borrow a bikini top from another girl (she supposedly didn't go with a change of clothes like the other girls). But minutes ago I just remembered that literally a week or two before this she had gotten a victoria secrets catalog and was perseverating over "tops". She's small up top and self-conscious about it, but during that time, when I was clueless and telling her not to look at that crap she made it clear she was looking at tops! So she must have at least been told to get a top for the party. I don't know if she knew there would be skin action but there's no doubt in my mind that top would have been for that party. I'm pretty pissed now that I've made that connection and she didn't share it with me. I'll give her some rope and hint around and see what I can get out of her in case she's honestly forgotten with all of the stress of these things.

Essentially I've been giving her rope to either hang her self or do the right thing and she has divulged more. The fact that she revealed the guy had his groin in front of her face makes me happy that she would divulge that sort of detail, but I am concerned about this pre-planning and what she knew or thought might go down.

I do want to see if things can be worked out but it's an issue of rebuilding trust and I'm going to have to tell her that she needs to do most of the talking to describe every thing related to this event. I've asked carefully formulated questions to force the responses so far, and I shouldn't even have to do that. There are a number of details regarding what all went down that didn't involve her but, as long as it's truthful, and I think it has been from watching her facial expressions and manner of response, then the party wasn't a full blown jerk off/screw the guy sort of party.

She says she wants to stay with me and I believe her, but I need to be the one she is closest to and whom she feels comfortable confiding in, even if she behaved poorly. There's no trust where that sort of communication doesn't exist.

I'm going to read through all of the responses to this point and see what others have said. I can't think of much else to add at the moment as my sleep hasn't been great over this thing and I'm a bit side tracked with just having made the connection of her looking for tops in victoria secret prior to this (she threw out the magazine when I insisted that she not look through there as those models just serve to lower her already low self-confidence). If I wasn't so tired I think I would have probed her on this last night but she will be given more time to air out her dirty laundry with out me giving her hints.

So far as getting things out of people it's a lot easier to tell them you know certain facts and you want to see if they'll be honest about them. I keep my cards close in order to get her to put her cards on the table and I can get more information than I otherwise would get. I'm just hoping that she didn't go for a ride like the other girls. She's only 100lbs and it wouldn't be beyond reason to think that she would have gone with the crowd on that, especially if she was picking out a top.

I just thought things were getting better today on those terms. I wish all people could just be honest. How wonderful life would be then...


----------



## Syrum

Firstly even if your intimacy hasn't been great, this is because of an injury, and she should have told you she felt things weren't good right now (or did she?).

Sometimes things like that happen during marriage and it's no reason to step out.

Also as for the submissive thing, I can understand because I can be quite submissive and I find it very difficult if I do not feel desired or wanted or actively persued by my OH. This is really important to me and my sexual attraction to him. 

Again though, she should not have done what she did no matter what was going on with you and should have been looking for solutions with you, as you should have with her. Even if you can't have sex there are lots of ways to make her feel desired by you and for you to be sexual with her. It still does not excuse her behaviour.


----------



## DawnD

jai_mann said:


> GENERAL UPDATE:
> 
> (she threw out the magazine when I insisted that she not look through there as those models just serve to lower her already low self-confidence)...


Don't you find that just a wee bit controlling? I am sorry, but if you can't see that truly being controlling will not help in your relationship, she most likely will not want to be honest with you about anything. You need to back off on the " I am going to tell you whats best for you" attitude, and work on the " We are in this together, lets talk about things so we are both happy with one another". 

I do wholeheartedly agree with you that if you made it clear you didn't want her to attend, that her committment to you should have outweight some bachelorette party. No question there. The question is if you have this controlling type of behavior with her, how long before she does the next thing to rebel against you trying to control her? Are you willing to step back and realize that you might have a problem like that?


----------



## jai_mann

Folks you'll have to bare with me on responding here. I had a medical appointment yesterday for my leg and I was running on 3 hours of sleep. Today I crashed hard around 3am and woke up around 5am, fell back asleep at 10am and got up at 3 pm.

I chatted more with the wife today. She's definitely behaving as though she is sorry, but as others have stated, how much is an act?

It took me a while to read through all of those previous posts. The wife is out at a new kids on the block concert that she and friends booked months ago (she is still some what of a teeny bopper). I knew about this way in advance. She will call when she's heading back in 15-45 minutes or so. I can't spend too much time posting right now as I need to mull over what others have said so far. 

I do think things may be salvageable. I need full disclosure though because if sex was involved, I'm out the door. It's bad enough to find out last night the guy was waving his genitals in the little baggy in her face, which she did not disclose before, but again, last night she seemed much more predisposed to disclosing things, I just don't think she disclosed as much as I need to hear about, such as the premeditation (wtf? how about my feelings or commenting about it to me?).

I want to briefly clear the air on a few things. I am a grad student on medical leave. My background is in psychology and behaviorism. I would humbly consider myself an expert at reading people, which includes micro-expressions, tone of voice, avoidance of response, and many other related things. That's what has helped me get this info, which, again, she could be embarrassed or scared to tell me, even if she wasn't giving bj's or hj's. I honest to god can't see her doing that and I know her well. She has esteem issues due to her breast size and even if alcohol in her I couldn't picture her removing the top she was given (after she couldn't find one form victoria's secret, grrrr.)

As to any one thinking I'm arrogant or what ever, I think my analytical personality is being misconstrued here. If people look up the Meyer's -Briggs temperament sorter with google, I am an INTJ. A nerd's nerd. It's who I am. Sorry that I can be blunt, but I try not to be rude.



If people could please comment regarding Hicks post on page 3 of this thread, that I should just cancel the east coast reception for now and announce that my wife and I have differences in opinions on marriage that we need to first work out I would appreciate it.

There are many other comments that resonated with me and I can't acknowledge them right now as I need to get off here and think through things. Yes, I am angry at her, but if you look up my personality, we INTJ's keep our emotions in check and do our best to be pragmatists. 

I do think that Hick's comment may need to be pursued, to drive home the point to my wife, and to take a stance that I won't be a vegetable and let her run wild as I try to rehabilitate my tendon injuries. I will have more time to comment tomorrow, and in between now and then I would appreciate feedback regarding Hick's commentary.

I will try to address other posts tomorrow as this thread is large.

Regardless of my values, or any one else's values, I sure wish people would just be honest with each other. The world could be a beautiful place if people were forth right with one another.


----------



## golfergirl

jai_mann said:


> It took me a while to read through all of those previous posts. The wife is out at a new kids on the block concert that she and friends booked months ago (she is still some what of a teeny bopper).


A New Kids on the Block concert? That should be punishment enough!
Seriously, I hope things work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

^ agreed!



jai_mann said:


> The wife is out at a new kids on the block concert that she and friends booked months ago (she is still some what of a teeny bopper).


I think what you really should be concerned about, is her taste in music 

But as for the reception, what do _you_ think you should do?


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Don't take no **** from her or any other of these modern "women." Also, don't let anyone tell you that her ****ing this up so early is your fault. 

She knew what you wouldn't have liked about this, that's why she lied and she'll continue lying. You know this and everyone else here does too. Whatever you do, make sure it's what you want to do, go your own way. Just remember, do unto others before they do unto you.


----------



## jai_mann

QUICK LATE NIGHT UPDATE:

The wife and I talked for a bit when she got in from her concert. I raised the issue of the swim suit top that she had been looking for and if it was meant for the stripper and she said no. I believe her 100% on this as she didn't give any of the typical cues and she has been forthright since last night (took her a while to open up).

I do remember now that she had been wanting an entire new suit after our beach wedding in April. She already had a bottom half but had not found a suitable top half (she's very petite). So it was a coincidence and I've no doubt about it.

Regarding the east coast reception, I believe I will maintain it and follow through as planned. That bathing suit top had me concerned about just how preplanned this may have been and it would have absolutely, without a doubt indicated that she knew and wanted to be rubbed on. But as it stands, she had to borrow a top from another girl, and I think that happened as she's submissive and goes with the group on things, so as she has said numerous times, she realized that she was in over her head when things got going but it was like being frozen from action. 

My own pre-incident notion of male strippers was pretty naive and I think it was similar to her own notion. A guy comes in, says some corny lines, blasts some music, rips off his clothes and gyrates around, possibly some tips are stuck in the g-string and that's it.

I didn't know how raunchy these things could get. It's like the craigslist hooker ads that existed for the longest time. How do those things manage to exist if LEO can easily spot them and it's against the law to provide sex for money (whole separate issue, but if "private" stripping is known to degenerate to this sort of thing at times, how is that not shut down?)

Any way, we both talked about what we could do to make each other happier and to satisfy needs. She's still going to get an STD test but at this point, with her opening up and divulging info, I don't know that it's required. Still better safe than sorry since this guy was rubbing himself on some girls who are wild, whereas my girl is pretty tame. My wife only knew a few of all of the girls there and several of the wild ones were there because they were the bride to be's friends (and they set up the stripper thing). The wild ones were getting rides and the others, including my wife, and I believe her on this, were sitting off to the side watching when they realized that they were going to be a part of the show just sitting there as the stripper eventually came over to them, looking for tips. The wife indicated that no fellatio or Hj's were given and was surprised to hear that stuff happens (I had no clue until researching this stuff a few days ago either).

I will try to go back and address comments made by others with what I now know in retrospect. I greatly appreciate the honest feedback from every one, even if my values aren't the same as several of you . I'll have to do so tomorrow though as it's late, and it's been a stressful several days.

My gratitude to you all.


----------



## MrK

jai_mann said:


> GENERAL UPDATE:
> ..only a couple of the girls got "rides" from him.


Rides? What does that mean, exactly?




jai_mann said:


> GENERAL UPDATE:
> Then she revealed that he had his genitals on her back. Last night she revealed that he had put his groin in her face (all supposedly covered). ...


A little trickle truth going on here, no? I've got to think that once the genitals came out, they stayed out. I've never seen a stripper pull down her g-string to show her coochie to some patrons but leave it up for others. An article of clothing comes off, it stays off. 

Look, I can see where this post is going with all of the peace, love and happiness, and I'm glad you two are communicating. And I really hate to be the first to say otherwise. It's just that with my issue, my wife "got away with it". Many other spouses of members here did so as well. I just gave up. And you know what? The underlying isues that caused it all are still there. My wife's continued lies and refusal to come clean are a still BIG indicators of lack of love and respect for me. 

Ask to see the pictures. Ask matter of factly, as though you know they are there. As Entropy said, they exist. It always amazed me that not only will married women put genitals of strange men in their mouths in front of other girls, but will allow pictures and even video to be made. It's like the gang-bangers who commit a crime and post the video on you-tube. 

Now that I think of it, start googling "Joanies bachelorette party" and see if any of THESE Einstein-ettes posted anything.

Sorry. You can get back to the happy ending version now.


----------



## Hicks

I guess what I would say is rather than figure out what happened exactly, what you have to do is focus on whether this was a pattern or an event. And, how can you stop it from being a pattern if it is something that is emerging.

If you are confident that it was an "event", then I would say it's not worth throwing your marriage away. Even if she did things you don't like. But, what I said before is still very important. Your wife is a sexual female who is attracted to Alpha male behavior. Your nerdiness and your injury are working against you in that regard. That doesn't mean GIVE UP... but you must compensate for these things. How? By having strong values and expectations stated frequently about how your wife will behave in your marriage. And how you will behave in your marriage. And having open dialog about meeting each other's needs. Related to this episode it means absolutely keeping your "hurt" about your boundaries and your values and staying away from any line of reasoning that looks like you are weak or jealous, and making sure she understands the axe will fall on your marriage the minute you find a) she was not being truthful or b) anything similar to this ever happens again. The key to the reception is to either have it or don't have it, but never have that be part of you decisions about the future of your marriage, nor having a fear about what your relatives will think be part of your decisions with your wife.


----------



## WhiteRabbit

You'd be amazed at how stupid people are when posting their pictures online.

I agree with searching for pics of the party. they're out there somewhere...

(stupid people story: several years ago we fired a girl because she thought it would be cute to use her office key to come in and have sex in the surgical suite with her boyfriend while capturing the whole thing in one big happy kodak moment. the dumb b*tch posted a pic of her in her bra,boyfriend naked but covered by her...in the surgical chair ON HER FACEBOOK PAGE)


----------



## Whip Morgan

Jai, if you believe that your wife is telling the truth about what happened and that her embarassment and regret is genuine, this breach of trust can be overcome. Unfortunately, this trickle truth is very common from lying spouses, there is a possibility that there is still more she hasn't told you. 

It is very possible that she was among a group of women who felt things have gone too far. As you wrote of her submissive nature, its common for people to want to go along with the majority. Those other women, the "wild" ones, those are the toxic women here. I'd also question the integrity of the bride-to-be. This submissive nature of hers, this could lead to further trouble down the road. Her willingness to be submissive to the point of ignoring your boundaries and blowing past them is not good. I'd highly recommend that you sit down and discuss this with her, and that further "events" with these women is not a good idea. The Girls Night Out isn't a good idea with a woman willing to follow the crowd.

You know your wife, we don't. If you feel good that you have the story, I hope you are able to address this and move forward. Her submissive tendency could be a problem, I'd look for counseling to work with that. I am wondering, though, have you thought how your behavior contributes to her submission? I also connect submission such as this to low self-esteem. Use this incident, if you decide to continue with the marriage, to examine your behavior towards her and be open to realizing you may be contributing to her submission/self esteem problems.


----------



## F-102

You told her, in regards to the VS catalog, not to "look at that crap",
and then later insisted that she throw it away because it lowered her "already low self confidence"?

No wonder she's rebelling-she sees you more as a stern father than an equal partner.

You remind me of guys who tell their ladies "Don't eat too much-you're fat enough as it is".

You may be educated and hold degrees, but you are NOT particularly smart.


----------



## AFEH

Hicks said:


> I guess what I would say is rather than figure out what happened exactly, what you have to do is focus on whether this was a pattern or an event. And, how can you stop it from being a pattern if it is something that is emerging.
> 
> If you are confident that it was an "event", then I would say it's not worth throwing your marriage away. Even if she did things you don't like. But, what I said before is still very important. Your wife is a sexual female who is attracted to Alpha male behavior. Your nerdiness and your injury are working against you in that regard. That doesn't mean GIVE UP... but you must compensate for these things. How? By having strong values and expectations stated frequently about how your wife will behave in your marriage. And how you will behave in your marriage. And having open dialog about meeting each other's needs. Related to this episode it means absolutely keeping your "hurt" about your boundaries and your values and staying away from any line of reasoning that looks like you are weak or jealous, and making sure she understands the axe will fall on your marriage the minute you find a) she was not being truthful or b) anything similar to this ever happens again. The key to the reception is to either have it or don't have it, but never have that be part of you decisions about the future of your marriage, nor having a fear about what your relatives will think be part of your decisions with your wife.


It’s a million miles away from alpha male behaviour, in my book anyway. It’s just a guy selling his body for money, very much like a woman prostitute. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## AFEH

I think OP’s behaviour is like that of a father, rather than an equal partner in life. For example it’s like his wife is his daughter and he’s making excuses for her, she was forced into it by her friends sort of thing. That’s maybe something you’d say about a thirteen year old. That’s a parent child relationship and that’s never good.

Rather I think OP should not give or listen to any excuses from his wife. What he does need to talk about is personal responsibility. And marriage is rarely about one stroke and you’re out, especially so early on in the marriage. The thing to do with this situation is use it to learn new ways of resolving conflict and how to reconcile differences in values and beliefs, this wont be the first situation and hopefully not the last.

The biggest thing here I think is “the truth”. OP’s wife has been “caught out”. She needs to learn through this experience that the truth always pays. And then when she’s been truthful for OP to forgive and move on. Maybe smack her bum and send her to bed for being such a naughty girl.

Truth and forgiveness are absolute golden cornerstones, foundations of long and happy marriages. Without them they eventually crumble.


----------



## Entropy3000

jai_mann said:


> Folks you'll have to bare with me on responding here. I had a medical appointment yesterday for my leg and I was running on 3 hours of sleep. Today I crashed hard around 3am and woke up around 5am, fell back asleep at 10am and got up at 3 pm.
> 
> I chatted more with the wife today. She's definitely behaving as though she is sorry, but as others have stated, how much is an act?
> 
> It took me a while to read through all of those previous posts. The wife is out at a new kids on the block concert that she and friends booked months ago (she is still some what of a teeny bopper). I knew about this way in advance. She will call when she's heading back in 15-45 minutes or so. I can't spend too much time posting right now as I need to mull over what others have said so far.
> 
> I do think things may be salvageable. I need full disclosure though because if sex was involved, I'm out the door. It's bad enough to find out last night the guy was waving his genitals in the little baggy in her face, which she did not disclose before, but again, last night she seemed much more predisposed to disclosing things, I just don't think she disclosed as much as I need to hear about, such as the premeditation (wtf? how about my feelings or commenting about it to me?).
> 
> I want to briefly clear the air on a few things. I am a grad student on medical leave. My background is in psychology and behaviorism. I would humbly consider myself an expert at reading people, which includes micro-expressions, tone of voice, avoidance of response, and many other related things. That's what has helped me get this info, which, again, she could be embarrassed or scared to tell me, even if she wasn't giving bj's or hj's. I honest to god can't see her doing that and I know her well. She has esteem issues due to her breast size and even if alcohol in her I couldn't picture her removing the top she was given (after she couldn't find one form victoria's secret, grrrr.)
> 
> As to any one thinking I'm arrogant or what ever, I think my analytical personality is being misconstrued here. If people look up the Meyer's -Briggs temperament sorter with google, I am an INTJ. A nerd's nerd. It's who I am. Sorry that I can be blunt, but I try not to be rude.
> 
> 
> 
> If people could please comment regarding Hicks post on page 3 of this thread, that I should just cancel the east coast reception for now and announce that my wife and I have differences in opinions on marriage that we need to first work out I would appreciate it.
> 
> There are many other comments that resonated with me and I can't acknowledge them right now as I need to get off here and think through things. Yes, I am angry at her, but if you look up my personality, we INTJ's keep our emotions in check and do our best to be pragmatists.
> 
> I do think that Hick's comment may need to be pursued, to drive home the point to my wife, and to take a stance that I won't be a vegetable and let her run wild as I try to rehabilitate my tendon injuries. I will have more time to comment tomorrow, and in between now and then I would appreciate feedback regarding Hick's commentary.
> 
> I will try to address other posts tomorrow as this thread is large.
> 
> Regardless of my values, or any one else's values, I sure wish people would just be honest with each other. The world could be a beautiful place if people were forth right with one another.


I am thinking now that you should not cancel the reception unless you see her really playing you. My take is that she is now very embarrassed. Probably was involved with a little more interaction than stated. The trickle truth. I just don't think it got very much more wild from her. Just my take.

It would be optimal if she was able to come copmpletely clean on this for her own benefit so she can move forward. In general you and her must keep a real communication going. Nail down what you can as to why this happened. Get those boundaries agreed to. You should be firm when you define them, but she needs to fully accept them along with you. This prevents later resentment. But you should not compromise your deal breakers. Trust can be regained here. It should take a little time though so be patient. If she however continues to do things behind your back you have your answer. I don't think this will happen.

Ideally this speed bump will help you guys move into the level of intimacy in your marriage. Where you are willing to share more with each other. It is make or break though. 

At some point you will completely forgive her. She will need to forgive herself. The biggest thing was her lying and purposely going against your feelings. It is up to you but I don't think she shattered her vows at the party. Again though it would help if she flat told the whole truth.


----------



## Entropy3000

jai_mann said:


> QUICK LATE NIGHT UPDATE:
> 
> The wife and I talked for a bit when she got in from her concert. I raised the issue of the swim suit top that she had been looking for and if it was meant for the stripper and she said no. I believe her 100% on this as she didn't give any of the typical cues and she has been forthright since last night (took her a while to open up).
> 
> I do remember now that she had been wanting an entire new suit after our beach wedding in April. She already had a bottom half but had not found a suitable top half (she's very petite). So it was a coincidence and I've no doubt about it.
> 
> Regarding the east coast reception, I believe I will maintain it and follow through as planned. That bathing suit top had me concerned about just how preplanned this may have been and it would have absolutely, without a doubt indicated that she knew and wanted to be rubbed on. But as it stands, she had to borrow a top from another girl, and I think that happened as she's submissive and goes with the group on things, so as she has said numerous times, she realized that she was in over her head when things got going but it was like being frozen from action.
> 
> My own pre-incident notion of male strippers was pretty naive and I think it was similar to her own notion. A guy comes in, says some corny lines, blasts some music, rips off his clothes and gyrates around, possibly some tips are stuck in the g-string and that's it.
> 
> I didn't know how raunchy these things could get. It's like the craigslist hooker ads that existed for the longest time. How do those things manage to exist if LEO can easily spot them and it's against the law to provide sex for money (whole separate issue, but if "private" stripping is known to degenerate to this sort of thing at times, how is that not shut down?)
> 
> Any way, we both talked about what we could do to make each other happier and to satisfy needs. She's still going to get an STD test but at this point, with her opening up and divulging info, I don't know that it's required. Still better safe than sorry since this guy was rubbing himself on some girls who are wild, whereas my girl is pretty tame. My wife only knew a few of all of the girls there and several of the wild ones were there because they were the bride to be's friends (and they set up the stripper thing). The wild ones were getting rides and the others, including my wife, and I believe her on this, were sitting off to the side watching when they realized that they were going to be a part of the show just sitting there as the stripper eventually came over to them, looking for tips. The wife indicated that no fellatio or Hj's were given and was surprised to hear that stuff happens (I had no clue until researching this stuff a few days ago either).
> 
> I will try to go back and address comments made by others with what I now know in retrospect. I greatly appreciate the honest feedback from every one, even if my values aren't the same as several of you . I'll have to do so tomorrow though as it's late, and it's been a stressful several days.
> 
> My gratitude to you all.


This does sound much more plausible and makes a lot more sense than her just changing her personality completely and becoming someone else. Be encouraged. 

I may be seen as a wuss here, but I don't think I would insist on the STD tests. I think they probably got her attention and was worth asking for. But you may want to reconsider here. As long as she understands that some of these parties can and do go that far and why you were concerned because her behavior was not like herself.


----------



## Entropy3000

Hicks said:


> I guess what I would say is rather than figure out what happened exactly, what you have to do is focus on whether this was a pattern or an event. And, how can you stop it from being a pattern if it is something that is emerging.
> 
> If you are confident that it was an "event", then I would say it's not worth throwing your marriage away. Even if she did things you don't like. But, what I said before is still very important. Your wife is a sexual female who is attracted to Alpha male behavior. Your nerdiness and your injury are working against you in that regard. That doesn't mean GIVE UP... but you must compensate for these things. How? By having strong values and expectations stated frequently about how your wife will behave in your marriage. And how you will behave in your marriage. And having open dialog about meeting each other's needs. Related to this episode it means absolutely keeping your "hurt" about your boundaries and your values and staying away from any line of reasoning that looks like you are weak or jealous, and making sure she understands the axe will fall on your marriage the minute you find a) she was not being truthful or b) anything similar to this ever happens again. The key to the reception is to either have it or don't have it, but never have that be part of you decisions about the future of your marriage, nor having a fear about what your relatives will think be part of your decisions with your wife.


Good stuff here. :iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

AFEH said:


> I think OP’s behaviour is like that of a father, rather than an equal partner in life. For example it’s like his wife is his daughter and he’s making excuses for her, she was forced into it by her friends sort of thing. That’s maybe something you’d say about a thirteen year old. That’s a parent child relationship and that’s never good.
> 
> Rather I think OP should not give or listen to any excuses from his wife. What he does need to talk about is personal responsibility. And marriage is rarely about one stroke and you’re out, especially so early on in the marriage. The thing to do with this situation is use it to learn new ways of resolving conflict and how to reconcile differences in values and beliefs, this wont be the first situation and hopefully not the last.
> 
> The biggest thing here I think is “the truth”. OP’s wife has been “caught out”. She needs to learn through this experience that the truth always pays. And then when she’s been truthful for OP to forgive and move on. Maybe smack her bum and send her to bed for being such a naughty girl.
> 
> *Truth and forgiveness are absolute golden cornerstones, foundations of long and happy marriages. Without them they eventually crumble.*


Yes, they have to get here. They both need her to free herself by telling the entire truth. Then they can go from there.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrK said:


> Rides? What does that mean, exactly?


In the broader sense ride means what it sounds like. A female in the cowgirl position riding the male or man standing with woman straddling the guy with her legs around him. This can occur with actual penetration of course but in this context what is common is for there to be simulated sex with the stripper grinding himself into the woman through at least panties. Most likely with him standing and her riding with her legs around him. 

This may turn into him putting her to the floor, humping on her and then sliding up her body and teabagging her ( genitals / scrotum on her face ). An alternate is for him to instead put his face in her crotch and at least simulate oral sex. My guess is that if she took a ride they went the teabag route. 

I am doubtful she went for the ride. But that is very possible if she readily succumbs to peer pressure. I think he took advantage of the bikini top and rubbed his junk on her. You can be sure whatever happened was at the extreme urging of the pack. You go girl. Great delight had by many in seeing a shy women embarrassed with the hopes she will get a little wild. Since she is shy, she would have been a target by the group for thier entertainment. This is usually decribed as female bonding and having a bit of harmless fun. Men will do this by buying other guys lap dances who do not want any part of it. If they are weak wusses they go along with it. If they are strong men they decide what their boundaries are, not the group. If you are the AMOG you don't follow the group.

This may not have been the wildest of events. I will not call it a show because the audience is in the show. You don't just watch. Strippers at least grind on the women and maybe pull their hands onto thier manhood. Women pay for this. Go figure. When men do this they are called pigs. But if "special" attire was used aka bikinis then there were some activities within the group that some if not all of their hubbys would have cringed at and in another context would have beaten the ever loving [email protected] out of the guy. But again, women pay for this. Excuse me. Some women.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> In the broader sense ride means what it sounds like. A female in the cowgirl position riding the male or man standing woman straddling the guy with her legs around him. This can occur with actual penetration of course but in this context what is common is for there to be simulated sex with the stripper grinding himself into the woman through at least panties. Most likely with him standing and her riding with her legs around him.
> 
> This may turn into him putting her to the floor, humping on her and then sliding up her body and teabagging her ( genitals / scrotum on her face ). An alternate is for him to instead put his face in her crotch and at least simulate oral sex. My guess is that if she took a ride they went the teabag route.
> 
> I am doubtful she went for the ride. But that is very possible if she readily succumbs to peer pressure. I think he took advantage of the bikini top and rubbed his junk on her. You can be sure whatever happened was at the extreme urging of the pack. You go girl. Great delight had by many in seeing a shy women embarrassed with the hopes she will get a little wild. Since she is shy, she would have been a target by the group for thier entertainment. This is usually decribed as female bonding and having a bit of harmless fun. Men will do this by buying other guys lap dances who do not want any part of it. If they are weak wusses they go along with it. If they are strong men they decide what their boundaries are, not the group. If you are the AMOG you don't follow the group.
> 
> This may not have been the wildest of events. I will not call it a show because the audience is in the show. You don't just watch. Strippers at least grind on the women and maybe pull their hands onto thier manhood. Women pay for this. Go figure. When men do this they are called pigs. But if "special" attire was used aka bikinis then there were some activities within the group that some if not all of their hubbys would have cringed at and in another context would have beaten the ever loving [email protected] out of the guy. But again, women pay for this.


You seem to have alot of knowledge on this subject. Was your stage name Tex by any chance?


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## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You seem to have alot of knowledge on this subject. Was your stage name Tex by any chance?


Big Tex 

Did I get it right? I have a vivid imagination.

The only nickname I had was in the Navy ... "Hooker <my last name>"

1) Flight deck related on the back of floatation device
2) I generally stood shore patrol in the hooker bars to help keep the lads in order. I was not a patron. Really. It was very entertaining though.

-------------
Also if his wife is shy and diminutive once things got rolling these strippers pretty much can just man handle the women. Things happen fast. Part of the allure and excitemnet of being ravaged / taken I guess.

What excites women in these scenarios from the husbands perspective is worth understanding in my opinion. Women seem to lose their inhibitions quickly within the pack. Maybe it makes them feel safer about going farther. It had been suggested that they are competing for the males attention. No doubt these guys are "hot" in their own right but what really makes them hot is the pre-selection by the other women.

What Turns Women On

I think some women enjoy this activity for more than just bonding and a bit of harmless fun. It is sexual. Just wish they would admit it and move forward.

----
Anyway it looks like the OP and his wife have a great chance of working through this speed bump. Hopefully it is just that.


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## chrisbx7

Get over it man! She went out with her friends and had a good time. You have trusted her for 8 years while dating so why shouldn't you trust her now. There is no way you could stop her if she decided to cheat on you. You need to stop worrying about the details of what happened and accept the fact that she came home to you!


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## Entropy3000

chrisbx7 said:


> Get over it man! She went out with her friends and had a good time. You have trusted her for 8 years while dating so why shouldn't you trust her now. There is no way you could stop her if she decided to cheat on you. You need to stop worrying about the details of what happened and accept the fact that she came home to you!


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ends-legitimized-infidelity-5.html#post134949

I like the above post as a good example of something way more serious to deal with it.



> I have read almost all of this thread and I must put my story out there. I was married for 18 years and my wife started going out with co-workers for a girls night out about once a month. I didn't have any problems with this until my son and I were in the area and I called to see if she had any cash for us to get some ice cream. She answered her phone as I was walking in the place and told me she wasn't there. She and a "freind" left and went to do something else. Well, I saw her car in the parking lot where she told me she would be. I went home and checked the cell phone bill and noticed alot of calls to a number I did not know. I called and it was a man. To make a long story short, she went out all the time and if I said anything it was my fault for not trusting her. If I went with her she wouldn't even want me to stand by her and she never had any fun. Once she went missing while we where out and I couldn't find her for 2 hours. Everything got worse and finally I left. I found out later (from all her friends) that she had about 4 or 5 affairs during those times. She would go to the clubs with a group and have one of her men pick her up. I'm glad I left because I have found and married a great woman. We moved across the county and are happy. Whenever someone wants one of us to go out, we always ask the other if they want to go. This works out great. Good Luck! Remember though, if it's ever bad enough to walk out once, it is never going to be any different if you decide to go back.


In no way is the OP's situation this far gone or any where near it. Definitely a speed bump compared to the above. Which may be your point. This is nothing compared to this more serious stuff.


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## jai_mann

jayde said:


> Well - without a whole lot of background, I'm thinking they wouldn't have lasted 8 years, and I hope, not gotten married if they're moral compasses were not, at least, mostly lined up. And, if her lying to him was a pattern and she was sleeping all around town, I would agree with you.


It's definitely not a pattern and believe me my 1st serious relationship was like that. I thought that I needed to put in effort to make things work but I learned that you can't change some one who wants to behave a certain way. So you just learn to pick out those people and avoid them. I dated many women after this and all it took was one date to know if they were long term material. 

I learned a lot after that 1st relationship, the cues to watch for behaviorally. How to separate the players from serious people, etc. And that was 10 years ago. As I stated in my most recent posts, this was some thing that could have been avoided but she clearly didn't think it would be like it was and once she was at the point of the others providing a bikini top for her (she wouldn't put on bikini bottoms like a couple of the other girls who went for rides and got grinded, and I very much believe her) she was caught up with the group since she's passive. 

We discussed that last point especially because she needs to watch out for any sort of future incident where she knows she would be too weak to break from the group. She's been quite forthright after I got her to break the uncomfortable news to me. She literally told me when she heard fireworks going off on the 4th, that she wished it was gun shots at her. She is the type to beat her self up over small things and this was a huge thing. 

I do think every thing will be okay but we will continue to make sure boundaries are understood, and how to avoid situations like this (she knows the whole male stripper thing isn't as tame as she thought it was). If it's any other added value, she was definitely a virgin when we first met and started dated at ~22 years of age.


----------



## jai_mann

MrK said:


> I can't be bothered to read all of these posts, but Entropy is correct. There were some B-J's being given at this party, by multiple women and right in front of each other. At this point, I'd say it's 50-50 as to wether or not your wife put his junk in her mouth. Minimum, the bachelorette got laid, probably a couple of others. That your wife gave him a handjob is practically guaranteed. She admitted to revealing some skin for some fun, she lied about other stuff...
> 
> I've been to strip joints. I've been to a couple of bachelor parties. I've read things and heard personal accounts of other people at both. It is very rare that a man gets any kid of sex at naked girl parties. But google "bachelorete party video" or "CFNM Video" (clothed females, naked males) and watch a few. No man will EVER let his SO go to a private stripper party after that.
> 
> Check yourself for STD's. This is bad.
> 
> OK. I've read all of the posts. Check out some of those male striper websites. CFNMtube.com may be all you'll need. If you guys have never seen this stuff, be prepared to be amazed.


I understand at this point that this sort of degeneracy can and does happen, but not at all of these events. I'm not willing to make assumptions and I'd prefer to abstain from thinking that some thing like that happened, or did not happen. I can only go by what evidence I have and that's coming from her. I trust her responses at this point as I've gotten all of what I have out of her by reading her responses, facial expressions, eye contact, all of that stuff. I do have the back ground of one who can handle reading even strangers and know if they are lying to me (psychology background w/ specialization in behaviorism and particularly reading people). And again, once the initial barrier was breeched with her the rest has come out.


----------



## jai_mann

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I cannot believe the conclusions that people are jumping to here. It just blows my mind. In any case, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. C'est la vie.


I'm not sure what you think my mind was made up on at that point. I was sleuthing for facts still. My concern for canceling my reception at that point was predicated upon the fact that she wasn't being forthright with me. I need honesty from my best friend, lover, and wife.


----------



## jai_mann

Whip Morgan said:


> Yes, she as an adult, made a decision to engage in activities that her husband disapproved of. She knew he was not okay with the idea of a male stripper at a private show. Common sense should lead any adult to realize that the same husband would not be okay with his wife removing clothing and engaging in physical contact with the stripper, which was what she knew would happen.
> 
> Thats the problem. She made the decision to do this. Then she made the decision to lie about it.
> 
> However, in Jai's case, we know there was inappropriate contact between a married woman and a stripper, which she was ready for and allowed. We also know she lied to her husband. My experiences dealing with BPs makes me believe there is still alot that Jai doesn't know about (and any husbands of other women present)



She absolutely knew I didn't approve of strippers. She actually didn't know that she would be rubbed on until, back at the apartment, the girls who planned it started getting into bikini's for their rides. My wife didn't bring any changes of clothes and being submissive, went along with only changing tops. She's extremely weak when it comes to acting on her own versus the crowd. So as mentioned in the last post, we want to work on her avoiding such potential scenario's in the future. And she got her once in a life time view (too up close and personal) of a male stripper. I don't think from what has been said at this point that she was ready for physical contact but she expected to at least be watching. Some people really don't know how crazy those private things get and having been with her for 8 years, and not knowing that even myself, I really don't think she knew there would be contact until she was caught up in the flow of things as the few wilder girls got into bikini's and loaned her a top (every body's doing it). I don't think that I'm making excuses for her at all because believe me, I'd leave if I thought she went out for some skin action. That's why in the earlier post I was concerned when I remembered her looking for a top in the victoria secret magazine, but because of my intense focus on this whole issue I had completely forgotten that she's been in search of a new suit since April (I know, I was with her at our beach wedding and beach honeymoon). She's 100lbs, and petite, so she did find a nice bottom half, but because of how petite she is she doesn't want a bikini top, she wants one of those tops that goes to midrift.

Things make much more sense to me given her willingness to be forthright after I got her to get past the barrier of being scared and embarrassed of revealing what happened with her.


----------



## jai_mann

Therealbrighteyes said:


> She lied, that's a given. Jumping from that to she blew him in front of all the women/nailed him and is now disease ridden is ridiculous.


I agree. That sort of assumption might work if I have noted previous issues with her. If it was the 1st girl I ever dated then I would absolutely think she could have gone down on him, as that girl was a pathological liar and I didn't realize it until 6 months in. My wife has literally spent huge chunks of her life with me over the last 8 years of a committed relationship and I've never had any issue like this crop up. Not once. In fact, we've always told each other that we feel like soul mates and I can see it in her eyes and how she has stayed with me.

If she wanted to leave or **** around she very easily could have as I've offered to let her leave. We've never had a single fight, but when I've been at my worst in physical pain and incapacitation, I told her she didn't need to stay with me and she could find a guy with out the injuries, if it was too much for her. She's never waivered or indicated that she needs things that I can't do (going out and dancing or any thing like that). She's gone out with coworkers on occasion to bars or clubs but some of them are married too and it's more or less just been co-workers hanging out. I've gone out once so far to meet some of them because they wanted to meet me. So, I think this thing will blow over but as stressful as it has been it has helped wake me up to "married life" and that we need to establish boundaries. I never thought they would be needed as this sort of thing has never happened in 8 years of being together.


----------



## jai_mann

jayde said:


> I agree. And, over the past few months, I've learned that we often create a lot of our problems by what we assume, imagine, reading into others' thoughts and expecting others to not be honest. Call me naive, stupid, overly optomistic, whatever but coming to this realization has gotten me through the darkest time of my marriage (and my life). Ask the hard questions, be prepared for the answers and trust that it's true until proven otherwise.


Here's the interesting thing, and maybe I can contribute back to the forum over the next week or so regarding this issue of reading others. In my humble opinion, it's always best to work with what absolute facts you can get. And it's not good to guess at people's motivations. You can actually get a very strong knowledge of other people's motivations just by observing their behaviors. As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. 

Some of you may want to google "Paul Eckman". This professor sells cds to train the average joe to catch what are called "micro-expressions" on the human face. These micro-expressions are split second expressions that may occur in various muscle groups. Those muscle groups are tied directly to the brain's emotional circuitry and they occur before people have a chance to mask them. These are the same micro expressions that skilled poker players look for as tells. 

So for instance, if I carefully observe a player who just looks at his 2 cards for the very first time (first time is important as it's the first time they come into contact with the stimulus) I can potentially find out if they are happy, neutral, or annoyed with the cards they have been dealt. I've really p!ssed some people off telling them what they think about their hands right after they look before, but you won't always get those signs.

So none of us really have to guess at this stuff, there are things we can all learn to pick up on. It all boils down to "stimulus" "response". If you ask a question (stimulus) the micro-expressions, eye contact avoidance, or brief rapid blinking of eye lids, or redirection in their response all indicate an avoidance of that stimulus (specific question). And that would tell me to probe the topic further, but maybe changing the context so that you can narrow things down. It is an art. It does take time to perfect. But it is a very empowering feeling to know that you can tell exactly how people feel on a given thing. These things don't just have to be used on trying to find out if some one is lying.

They work great for keeping a pretty healthy relationship. You can make note of whether or not your partner is bored with a topic or if they are just going along for you. It can help you balance your needs with theirs, and visa-versa. 

Again, for others, I don't want to come off as arrogant or condescending. This is generally my professional area. I want to reciprocate what I can to every one here for taking the time to give me your own feed back on my problem. It's also the issue of support from others when I had no one else I wanted to talk about this to (I didn't want to bring my parents or friends into this when I had minimal details). Just getting feedback was supportive through this stressful event.

I did do some research on this whole "private stripper" thing which I was totally naive about initially. I was mad enough just thinking she went to go watch one, but to find out that things involved the guy rubbing his genitals, in the tiny thong on her back, absolutely raised my concern about how far things went given what I've recently learned about these private strippers.

She is getting the STD test today but I don't expect any thing of concern at this point. I'm working with her to get her to trust me and that she should be able to feel comfortable talking to me about every thing as I'm her husband, and I should be seen as her best friend who will always look out for her. As some others on here have noted, this sort of thing can actually help to build trust once she sees how I handle her telling the truth. She acknowledges she shouldn't have gone there and she wants to earn back my trust.

There's no cuckolding going on her. I won't lower my standards, but she's going to work to regain my trust. The cost/benefit ratio of ending what has been great up to this point over what happened and the dynamics thereof aren't worth it. I know things didn't go any farther than she's described by her reactions and the fact that after 2 days she just spilled the beans.


----------



## Entropy3000

I think you have a good idea for the truth now. Awesome. This was just a speed bump.


----------



## MakinOurWay

MrK said:


> I can't be bothered to read all of these posts, but Entropy is correct. There were some B-J's being given at this party, by multiple women and right in front of each other. At this point, I'd say it's 50-50 as to wether or not your wife put his junk in her mouth. Minimum, the bachelorette got laid, probably a couple of others. That your wife gave him a handjob is practically guaranteed. She admitted to revealing some skin for some fun, she lied about other stuff...
> 
> I've been to strip joints. I've been to a couple of bachelor parties. I've read things and heard personal accounts of other people at both. It is very rare that a man gets any kid of sex at naked girl parties. But google "bachelorete party video" or "CFNM Video" (clothed females, naked males) and watch a few. No man will EVER let his SO go to a private stripper party after that.
> 
> Check yourself for STD's. This is bad.
> 
> OK. I've read all of the posts. Check out some of those male striper websites. CFNMtube.com may be all you'll need. If you guys have never seen this stuff, be prepared to be amazed.


Are you serious? You're not serious? You can't be.
These "hen party" web sites are professionally produced pornography starring professional, paid actors and actresses. 
You SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that 40 neighborhood moms and marketing directors and yoga instructors and students and daughters and sisters all voluntarily approved to have their faces videotaped giving head and having group sex and receiving facials? SERIOUSLY? 
"Hi Betty, come on over later tonight and please wear your ****tiest skirt and no underwear and rock those Louboutin pumps and your sexy halter top. I've hired a team of 3 professional photogs and 2 lighting guys and 1 sound guy to show up 3 hours beforehand at my sprawling suburban mansion to video tape us all having sex." Yeah, that's happening more and more frequently these days... what's our culture coming to?? Why won't anybody think about the children!!??

Jai, your wife lied to you because I think as your tone and the 11 pages of your maniacal insistence on the rectitude of your rigid views proves... you're a pain in the ass. You're inflexible. You're verbose. You don't care about her. You're awesomely selfish. And you spoil for fights where you get to assert how RIGHT you are and how WRONG she or others is.

She gets to do what she wants. You get to lose sometimes. You set up the scenario where you forced her to lie. You're the problem. The earlier poster on the first page was correct.


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## saveamarriage101

I think we should focus on the lying. Nevermind the party. I mean we all know what goes on there, we all have different feelings about it. You don't like it, and your wife doesnt seem to mind it. That is something for the 2 of you to discuss.

As for the lying, that is a different story. Her being dishonest shows that she knew it would hurt you, she knows that you wouldnt like it, yet she did it anyway. What she should have done it told you before she left. That way it shows trust for both of you. You trust her not to do anything, as she told you up front what she was doing. And she can trust you to allow her to go do what she wants.

I think you need to sit down and talk to her about what happened. And say that you both need to trust each other more, and be more upfront about it in the future. 

If you can't be honest with each other...then I would consider some major councelling, or what you find fit.


----------



## jai_mann

MakinOurWay said:


> Jai, your wife lied to you because I think as your tone and the 11 pages of your maniacal insistence on the rectitude of your rigid views proves... you're a pain in the ass. You're inflexible. You're verbose. You don't care about her. You're awesomely selfish. And you spoil for fights where you get to assert how RIGHT you are and how WRONG she or others is.
> 
> She gets to do what she wants. You get to lose sometimes. You set up the scenario where you forced her to lie. You're the problem. The earlier poster on the first page was correct.


Maybe you missed the part about us being together for 8 years prior to her deciding to say "I do", and to remain faithful to me? Your attack on my values does nothing to address the issue of her behavior. Apparently you condone lying to others, especially if their values are different from your own. And apparently having standards (which I have not hid during those 8 years, nor have I attached a collar and leash about her neck, she was free to leave at any time) means that I don't care about her.

To be blunt, none of what you say is supported in facts. The bulk of it is merely ad hominem attacks upon me and my character. Ad hominem attacks are not constructive criticism. It is entirely devoid of any thing constructive. If I spoiled for fights then I would not have left the first girl I ever dated as her seeing guys behind my back provided plenty of fights where she was busted for philandering. Seriously, why leave some one like that when I could have all the drama my heart desires? :lol: 

Every one gets to do what they want, but there are consequences for behavior. If that behavior is out of line with one persons values then the person with those values will respond. So, because I hold conservative values, and they are clearly out of line with your values, you have responded here because you feel the need to castigate me for holding such values. I can deal with that. It doesn't bother me that some one with loose values has gotten bent out of shape over the fact that I hold values diametrically opposed to their own.  If you're spoiling for a fight with me over values you won't get it. This is the only response you'll get out of me as I'm not here looking to convert those who play fast and loose with values. And the wife and I are working through this just fine at the moment. So the home front is practically back to normal. 

Your post was humorous though, I'll give you that .


----------



## jai_mann

saveamarriage101 said:


> I think we should focus on the lying. Nevermind the party. I mean we all know what goes on there, we all have different feelings about it. You don't like it, and your wife doesnt seem to mind it. That is something for the 2 of you to discuss.


Well we've discussed it since and I've posted regarding those discussions in this thread. The lying was my biggest concern as we're supposed to be able to rely on each other as closest friends and allies. She's spilled the beans on things as I've said and she has said the party was over her head and that she didn't expect it to be like it was (previous posts address this, she didn't go prepared with a bikini like the few wild girls in the group did. She borrowed one and caved to peer pressure.)



saveamarriage101 said:


> As for the lying, that is a different story. Her being dishonest shows that she knew it would hurt you, she knows that you wouldnt like it, yet she did it anyway. What she should have done it told you before she left. That way it shows trust for both of you. You trust her not to do anything, as she told you up front what she was doing. And she can trust you to allow her to go do what she wants.
> 
> I think you need to sit down and talk to her about what happened. And say that you both need to trust each other more, and be more upfront about it in the future.
> 
> If you can't be honest with each other...then I would consider some major councelling, or what you find fit.


I fully agree with your take on the lying. I don't think that she really thought I would get as upset as I did over it, even though I've made it clear that I find such things to be acts of degeneracy. I think she caved to carnal desire as a result of a number of factors, some my fault, some just the nature of our biology. She was scared to tell me because she knew I wouldn't be happy hearing about a guy rubbing his genitals (in the tiny thong) on her back, and wiggling them in her face. I already know from psychological experiments that 2/3's of the population will typically cave and go with the flow in situations, especially when there are more authoritative figures, or domineering personalities present. She's submissive and I know that, so she caved with regards to the bikini issue, and tagging along. We've talked about it and she knows that she has to work on trying to avoid potential situations like that. Basically we've discussed the "toxic friends" issue, and the issue of roles in marriage.

I've browsed this site to see the sort of things that could come up so that I can discuss them with her. And I've told her that I would appreciate it if she checked this site out, to get a feel for the sort of things that could lead to problems between us. Really, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of things that led to this and I know that me having exacerbated health issues last month didn't help with her needs. 

I've never taken issue with her going and doing stuff with friends but when it comes to certain contexts I do take issue and I am against certain things after having learned about them on here. Girls night out is a bad idea. Private strippers are a bad idea. I told her I can cope with her going to a club where certain rules are generally enforced, but that I still would prefer she not do that.

Really, the way things stand now, I think we're communicating well, she's being honest, I'm trying to make up for my lack of attention to her needs (being chronically injured has provided us with ups and downs in that area, but unlike certain posters here I'm not willing to tell her to go get her sexual needs attended to by another guy).

Things are going well for now and she has talked to me on a daily basis about winning back my trust. I think we're coming out of this stronger and closer than before. I still hate that it happened, but it's what people do after a thing happens that matters since the past can not be changed.


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## MakinOurWay

Yeah, it's going to be great when your boy decides he doesn't want to play whatever sport you think he should. It's going to be great when your daughter starts dating. How many times do you expect to kick your children out of "your house" until they bend to your will and accept it as the only law?
You're clearly ok with ceding control of decisions to others.

EVERY SINGLE THING you've written about only touches upon the center of your opinions. You're not whole. Your relationship is not whole. You have spent, and will forever spend, your life slamming square pegs into round holes because you think it's the way things should be. 
You need to speak to a therapist about being more accommodating, open and pleasant.


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## AbsolutelyFree

JaiMann, I hope you can see that although MakinOurWay's posts are a bit coarse, there might be a little bit of truth in what he's saying.

You are thirty years old and have been when this girl since you were 22. I assume she is the same age as you or maybe younger. Perhaps I'm going out on a limb, but, I am imagining that her life has been a bit sheltered. You might be the only person she has serious relationship she has been in.

Your wife has a lot of respect for you and I'm sure she thinks you're very intelligent. Additionally, she is pretty submissive as you said. I think in her mind it is clear that she could never challenge you or win an argument about a 'moral issue.' Even if she felt she was right, she knows she can't debate and isn't able to speak as assertively as you.

Still, in another respect she can't change the fact that she has some curiosities or inclinations to see if she is missing out on anything. She knows that it is not 'right' in the morals which she has agreed to, and she doesn't want you to think less of her. In her mind she knows you are 'right' and she has no defense for her actions, but she wanted to go to that party and she may even have enjoyed herself. Those are her feelings, and you can't change them.


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## MakinOurWay

AbsolutelyFree said:


> Those are her feelings, and you can't change them.


I wish I'd said this previously.
That Jai is incurious about those feelings is... well, I'm not going to judge.
This needs scrutiny by a professional 3rd party.


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## F-102

Jai Mann, your "Father Knows Best" attitude towards your marriage may very well drive your W away.


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## morituri

F-102 said:


> Jai Mann, your "Father Knows Best" attitude towards your marriage may very well drive your W away.


He didn't 'bait and switch' her like a lot of spouses do. She KNEW what his core values were before and after he married her.


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## AFEH

Absolutely. She trashed one of his core values/boundaries just 2 months into the marriage. And then lied about it. Problem OP has, in my mind, is that he’s making all sorts of excuses for his W’s behaviour. And he’s trying to change her. That’ll make OP a codependent.


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## morituri

AFEH said:


> Absolutely. She trashed one of his core values/boundaries just 2 months into the marriage. And then lied about it. Problem OP has, in my mind, is that he’s making all sorts of excuses for his W’s behaviour. And he’s trying to change her. That’ll make OP a codependent.


But can you blame him? he IS after all emotionally invested in her.

Maybe she got curious as to what happens in those private parties. Too many women with very little sexual experience due get sucked into those parties and with a little alcohol and encouragement from their girlfriends "Your husband won't know what happened" end up doing things that they would never do, including fu*cking the dancers.


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## F-102

I'm talking about him telling her not to read the VC catalog because she has "esteem issues", and calling it crap. He is trying to make her decisions for her-sorta like the man who forbids his family to watch certain TV shows because they need to be "protected" from reality.


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## Entropy3000

MakinOurWay said:


> Yeah, it's going to be great when your boy decides he doesn't want to play whatever sport you think he should. It's going to be great when your daughter starts dating. How many times do you expect to kick your children out of "your house" until they bend to your will and accept it as the only law?
> You're clearly ok with ceding control of decisions to others.
> 
> EVERY SINGLE THING you've written about only touches upon the center of your opinions. You're not whole. Your relationship is not whole. You have spent, and will forever spend, your life slamming square pegs into round holes because you think it's the way things should be.
> You need to speak to a therapist about being more accommodating, open and pleasant.


He is expecting his wife to be faithful and honest. He will encourage his children. If he finds his son taking drugs he will take action. if he finds his daughter not taking care of her school work he will take action. Good husband. It remains to be seen if he will be a good father.

So it is about spin for some people. To take information that is in front of them and then create a completely different argument. Fun I guess at others expense.

She betrayed his trust. He is not a doormat. That is the only thing he is guilty if here.


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## Entropy3000

MakinOurWay said:


> Are you serious? You're not serious? You can't be.
> These "hen party" web sites are professionally produced pornography starring professional, paid actors and actresses.
> You SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that 40 neighborhood moms and marketing directors and yoga instructors and students and daughters and sisters all voluntarily approved to have their faces videotaped giving head and having group sex and receiving facials? SERIOUSLY?
> "Hi Betty, come on over later tonight and please wear your ****tiest skirt and no underwear and rock those Louboutin pumps and your sexy halter top. I've hired a team of 3 professional photogs and 2 lighting guys and 1 sound guy to show up 3 hours beforehand at my sprawling suburban mansion to video tape us all having sex." Yeah, that's happening more and more frequently these days... what's our culture coming to?? Why won't anybody think about the children!!??
> 
> Jai, your wife lied to you because I think as your tone and the 11 pages of your maniacal insistence on the rectitude of your rigid views proves... you're a pain in the ass. You're inflexible. You're verbose. You don't care about her. You're awesomely selfish. And you spoil for fights where you get to assert how RIGHT you are and how WRONG she or others is.
> 
> She gets to do what she wants. You get to lose sometimes. You set up the scenario where you forced her to lie. You're the problem. The earlier poster on the first page was correct.


Don't be a hater. No one is ever forced to be a liar of a cheat. If they cannot be faikthful they should seek to either end the relationship or to improve it. You do not improve relationships by lying and cheating.

Marriage is not taking turns losing. If one spouse loses both lose. Contemplate this for while.


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## Entropy3000

F-102 said:


> I'm talking about him telling her not to read the VC catalog because she has "esteem issues", and calling it crap. He is trying to make her decisions for her-sorta like the man who forbids his family to watch certain TV shows because they need to be "protected" from reality.


I don't disagree with you. He is in the pychology field. It is often advised that if you have a body image problem that you not spend a lot of time viewing magazines for example that depict ideallic standards. Rather one is supposed to focus on improving themselevs while not being discouraged. So he is likely following this thinking. It did not work out so well for him. But in his own way he was trying to help. I know folks on this forum will not see this. But it is what it is.


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## F-102

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but his aforementioned "Father Knows Best" attitude sounds a lot like my dad. He would do things like rip the women's underwear ads out of the Sears catalog, forbid us to watch certain shows on TV, and he even severely punished my sister for mentioning the "S" word, (he was too scared to say the word "sex")-because he didn't want us to get "ideas".

I remember one instance, when I was watching something, and one of the female characters whispered that her friend was molested as a child. Dad said: "What's this s**t you're watching? Turn it off!"

And I was 18 at the time.

I know he's in psychiatry, and he's looking out for her best interests, but she may be getting tired of living in a "1984" type police state. All I'm saying is that his wife may feel the same resentment towards her H as we had for our father, and she may leave him for this. 

Yes, I agree that it was wrong for her to keep secrets, but he may wonder WHY she wanted to keep this secret.


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## F-102

And, him saying not to read something because she has "esteem issues" sounds like a parent telling his overweight daughter that she can't have sweets because she's too fat.

She's his WIFE, not a "Grand Experiment".


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## Entropy3000

F-102 said:


> And, him saying not to read something because she has "esteem issues" sounds like a parent telling his overweight daughter that she can't have sweets because she's too fat.
> 
> She's his WIFE, not a "Grand Experiment".


Fine. But why do you make such a big deal about this?

Maybe he cares about her.

How about this guy is stepping in early and not waiting like so many other guys on this forum for when their wives are out having ONSs or whatever. He is just more dominant for this forum than most of the submissive folks.


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## Entropy3000

Beware of the Panther – WE tv

This was mentioned by someone earlier in the thread. This bride would not allow her hubby to have strippers at his party but she had this at hers. They can't even air much of her party on TV. It probably was not a real wild party but the video infers the stripper spent some quality time in the bedroom.

Interestingly enough, when her bacherlorette show aired it was a completely different show. Maybe it was just another event. They went to what amounted to a private house with some private male stripper action. Pretty much the same type stuff.


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## morituri

Entropy3000 said:


> Beware of the Panther – WE tv
> 
> This was mentioned by someone earlier in the thread. This bride would not allow her hubby to have strippers at his party but she had this at hers. They can't even air much of her party on TV. It probably was not a real wild party but the video infers the stripper spent some quality time in the bedroom.
> 
> Interestingly enough, when her bacherlorette show aired it was a completely different show. Maybe it was just another event. They went to what amounted to a private house with some private male stripper action. Pretty much the same type stuff.


*Did anybody show the groom this video so he could see for himself what a hypocritical sk**k his bride to be really is?*


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## F-102

Entropy3000 said:


> Fine. But why do you make such a big deal about this?
> 
> Maybe he cares about her.
> 
> How about this guy is stepping in early and not waiting like so many other guys on this forum for when their wives are out having ONSs or whatever. He is just more dominant for this forum than most of the submissive folks.


Because I think he treats her too much like a little kid. And she felt that she had to keep it a secret because she would be "punished".


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## Entropy3000

F-102 said:


> Because I think he treats her too much like a little kid. And she felt that she had to keep it a secret because she would be "punished".


You are right. I hate the [email protected]@rd.

Anyway, I hope you are wrong.


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## F-102

Alright, E3000, I get the message-I'm an uneducated interloper without a PhD on this thread, which you have appointed yourself as the guardian of, so I'm leaving it.


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## KJ5000

I only got to page two before I posted so forgive me if I missed other responses after that.
I can not believe how many people think the original poster is the problem!! His wife was dishonest and disrespectful and he's supposed to be OK with c0ck on back action?
I hear the term "Aplha" thrown around quite a bit here. Nothing can be more Beta than allowing your wife to engage in meat play with some stripper.
A guy from my gym was a former stripper and he told us that you would not believe how women conducted themselves at these strip shows, much worse than men.
If a woman was attractive and wanted to blow him he'd always oblige and he wasn't checking for wedding rings.
To the original poster, stick to your guns and find out Eaxctly what went on so that you can decide what to do next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

KJ5000 said:


> I only got to page two before I posted so forgive me if I missed other responses after that.
> I can not believe how many people think the original poster is the problem!! His wife was dishonest and disrespectful and he's supposed to be OK with c0ck on back action?
> I hear the term "Aplha" thrown around quite a bit here. Nothing can be more Beta than allowing your wife to engage in meat play with some stripper.
> A guy from my gym was a former stripper and he told us that you would not believe how women conducted themselves at these strip shows, much worse than men.
> If a woman was attractive and wanted to blow him he'd always oblige and he wasn't checking for wedding rings.
> To the original poster, stick to your guns and find out Eaxctly what went on so that you can decide what to do next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000

KJ5000 said:


> I only got to page two before I posted so forgive me if I missed other responses after that.
> I can not believe how many people think the original poster is the problem!! His wife was dishonest and disrespectful and he's supposed to be OK with c0ck on back action?
> *I hear the term "Aplha" thrown around quite a bit here. Nothing can be more Beta than allowing your wife to engage in meat play with some stripper.*
> A guy from my gym was a former stripper and he told us that you would not believe how women conducted themselves at these strip shows, much worse than men.
> If a woman was attractive and wanted to blow him he'd always oblige and he wasn't checking for wedding rings.
> To the original poster, stick to your guns and find out Eaxctly what went on so that you can decide what to do next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. So this guy actually stands up for himself and his marriage and he gets beat up for being controlling. UFB.


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## Grayson

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. So this guy actually stands up for himself and his marriage and he gets beat up for being controlling. UFB.


The two are not mutually exclusive.

It's possible for his wife to have crossed his personal boundaries (and for the specific boundaries in question to be relatively reasonable) *and* for him to simultaneously be a controlling @$$. It's even possible that the latter could be the impetus for the former. (Not that that would _excuse_ the former, but it could _explain_ it.)

Based solely on the information he's presented here, I'd say it's a little from Column A and a little from Column B.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

Grayson said:


> The two are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> It's possible for his wife to have crossed his personal boundaries (and for the specific boundaries in question to be relatively reasonable) *and* for him to simultaneously be a controlling @$$. It's even possible that the latter could be the impetus for the former. (Not that that would _excuse_ the former, but it could _explain_ it.)
> 
> Based solely on the information he's presented here, I'd say it's a little from Column A and a little from Column B.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which makes him a conservative on a liberal forum.


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## mdmk

Its time to get rid of her, she will never change and neither will you. If she has cheated then she will continue i would not even ask the details i would just deep six her. It does not matter if she cheated or not in your mind she did and that's all that matters. Your mind is the true reality for you. You do whats best for you just like she did what was best for her.


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## Stonewall

geogirl said:


> My mother told me " It doesn't matter where they get their appetite from, as long as they eat at home." Gotta love mom.


cant argue with that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mdmk

agreed stonewall lol


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## Cosmos

No matter what our personal views are on bachelor / bachelorette parties, the OP's wife knew his stance on this sort of thing _before_ she married him. Whether we agree with his values or not doesn't detract from the fact that his W sought to renegotiate the boundaries and lie to him 2 months into the marriage, and he's not happy about it. On this basis, I think he's justifiably upset.


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## mdmk

as do i


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## Ano

I had a male stripper at my bachelorette party. 

Your wife just didn't want to seem like a party pooper.

Yes, he did rub his package all over me and everyone there.

Yes, it was awkward and weird.

No, I did not stop him because it was just a historical laughing experience for everyone and I didn't want to be a party pooper.

I know that you have issues with this to begin with, but understand that it would have made your wife out to be a big party pooper and possibly making the party not as fun for everyone else had she stopped the stripper. Go easy on her. It was a man that was PAID to rub himself on women, it wasn't personal or erotic. He was just working for his money and making the ladies laugh.


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## tacoma

I`ve only read the first 3 pages of this thread so forgive me if I missed something.

You`ve been together 8 years without a problem.
2 months after marriage she goes off rubbing strippers ****s on her.

I think the vows themselves are a motivating agent here as I`ve seen it so many times in this forum.

She owns you, she feels she can get away with a certain level of **** she wouldn`t get away with pre-marriage.

I wouldn`t allow this incident to end a new marriage but I would use this scene as an example and educational tool.

Lay down some boundaries, tell her what she just did set everything in your relationship on a back burner, 8 years back (Kids, house, whatever) until you feel secure enough in her to trust her with these parts of your life.

Make certain she understands divorce is something you have no problem with if she can`t agree to your boundaries.
Let her know you will not hesitate to serve her D papers if she thinks she can continue this ****.

In the future these types of events are off limits for her as part of your boundaries.

Edit:

Did your wife have a bachelorette party herself pre-marriage?


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## tacoma

Ano said:


> I know that you have issues with this to begin with, but understand that it would have made your wife out to be a big party pooper and possibly making the party not as fun for everyone else had she stopped the stripper. Go easy on her. It was a man that was PAID to rub himself on women, it wasn't personal or erotic. He was just working for his money and making the ladies laugh.


That's hysterical.


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## mdmk

Ano said:


> I know that you have issues with this to begin with, but understand that it would have made your wife out to be a big party pooper and possibly making the party not as fun for everyone else had she stopped the stripper. Go easy on her. It was a man that was PAID to rub himself on women, it wasn't personal or erotic. He was just working for his money and making the ladies laugh.


Ok... Lets see she does not have to be a party pooper she could have just left and saved her marriage. Or two she can party and loose her marriage that's her choices she knew that going into it and she chose a **** over her husband plain and simple. Also your forgetting that she wore a bikini top to this party just for this occasion.


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## Cosmos

jai_mann said:


> ...I have yet to speak to any one else about this. Part of me wants to get her to talk to her parents about it with me present as we are supposed to have a delayed wedding reception with my folks on the east coast.


OP, this would be a bad idea on a few levels. You're a married couple and it's not a good idea to involve inlaws in marital issues... If you feel the need for any form of mediation over this issue, an unbiased third party, such as an MC, would be a better option, IMO.


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## Cosmos

Ano said:


> I had a male stripper at my bachelorette party.
> 
> Your wife just didn't want to seem like a party pooper.
> 
> Yes, he did rub his package all over me and everyone there.
> 
> Yes, it was awkward and weird.
> 
> No, I did not stop him because it was just a historical laughing experience for everyone and I didn't want to be a party pooper.
> 
> I know that you have issues with this to begin with, but understand that it would have made your wife out to be a big party pooper and possibly making the party not as fun for everyone else had she stopped the stripper. Go easy on her. It was a man that was PAID to rub himself on women, it wasn't personal or erotic. He was just working for his money and making the ladies laugh.


I'd rather poop all over someone's party than disregard the boundaries of my relationship... Leaving after the dinner would have been the way I would have done this.


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## Complexity

dead thread peeps


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## Cosmos

Oops...


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