# Is this what a separation is meant to look or feel like?



## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Hi all,

My wife of just ten months moved to the UK where I live with my 3 kids for which I have full custody.

To say the last ten months has been tempestuously turbulent would be an understatement of well..the last ten months. After going through four Marriage Counsellors, church counsellor also and several attempts by either of us to make things work but failed, I agreed to my wife's most recent request for a divorce - there's been one on average every 4-6 weeks!

Anyways, having refused to beg this time, and both of us vacillating over whether or not to divorce, she decided (again I agreed) to separation. I however, never having gone through stuff like this before, did not know that a separation entailed her literally packing EVERYTHING belonging to her out of the house. She has returned to her parents' home in the US and I am here in the UK with my 3 kids. 

Attempts to talk via skype after her first day back in the States ended in an argument and the usual kitchen sinking or laundry list from her. She again suggested that we cut off ALL communication for a month. Again, I agreed but after two weeks, I think out of sight is becoming out of mind for me. I am coping very well with my kids, I am stress free and don't feel guilty every minute for hurting someone's feelings. Kids missed her the first few days, but they're just getting on with life and I keep them busy doing fun stuff. I do however, make myself very emotionally available to them whenever they wish to talk about what's going on. 

She told my kids I asked for a divorce (false. she did:scratchhead but they see all of her things are out of the house, no contact whatsoever at all with us and we're just getting on with life - without her.

So my question is this - Is this what a separation is meant to be like i.e fully moving out of the matrimonial home and no contact? She did send an email soon after leaving saying she loves me and wants to change for me but I just don't see where things begin from having moved back to the States, told my kids we're getting divorced and this total blackout approach. Is this normal or should I be very worried? 

Thanks all


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

Bolt, there aren't any rules on these things... Just stunning similarities between many of us. Sorry for the bad news that brings you here. 

That you and your wife have fought continuously during the honeymoon phase isn't a good indicator. How long did you date prior? Are your fights about something specific or does it just go global?

Read through a bunch of the threads here about strategies for tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## forumman83 (Aug 12, 2012)

Yes. It would be interesting to hear more about the fights you are having (i.e the causes or perceived causes). And possibly about both of your childhoods.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Orpheus said:


> Bolt, there aren't any rules on these things... Just stunning similarities between many of us. Sorry for the bad news that brings you here.
> 
> That you and your wife have fought continuously during the honeymoon phase isn't a good indicator. How long did you date prior? Are your fights about something specific or does it just go global?
> 
> ...


Sadly, I fell on the pretty much all the basics of choosing a partner. We only knew each other for about a year before we got married. We met online a few months after my divorce and spent no more than perhaps 6weeks together in person. Everything else was through online video calls. I live and work in the UK, she in the US. 

The stupid thing is we had these fights when we were courting but somehow, I foolishly figured love would win the day and everything would be ok. In fact it's gotten much worse. I am licking my wounds.

She is a feminist, women's lib. kinda gyal. Very logical and could talk a dead problem out of its grave. I am just a bloke (as we say in the UK). Tell me what the problem is, how you'd want us to resolve it then express love and grace. Not my wife..she wants an explanation for everything. Failure to do so equals = man trying to dominate and be unaccountable to woman.  I don't see men as oppressing women - she does.

With time on hand now I can see that we argue about gender politics but most importantly how poorly I am meeting her needs. I say I am doing my best, heck I am blowing fuses all over the place while also trying to be there for 3 very young kids. She says I am not doing so in the areas that matter most to her and is not sure I am capable of understanding. Well, I then start losing interest in trying .. cue another fight etc


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

iBolt said:


> So my question is this - Is this what a separation is meant to be like i.e fully moving out of the matrimonial home and no contact? She did send an email soon after leaving saying she loves me and wants to change for me but I just don't see where things begin from having moved back to the States, told my kids we're getting divorced and this total blackout approach. Is this normal or should I be very worried?


In a word YES.

Nothing is ever certain in these situations. She probably does want to change for you, but she is not at that point yet. Moving out and NC are quite normal for the walk away spouse.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

PS: I am no dufus that's incapable of holding his own in an intellectual discussion. I hold a Masters Degree in Politics, host public meeting between policy makers and stakeholders, get heat from opposition party supporters during public meetings etc but with these, people still can respectfully agree to disagree with me and we still get on great. For my wife however, hell no! Being right and being seen as the more hurt party is more important. 

I guess my biggest shortcoming is that having heard and seen these all before, I literally just shut down. I isolate myself from her cos I feel so harshly dealt with and disrespected despite my best efforts. This drives her nuts. I just get fed up of always apologising for something so I stop...until the next time, then the next time though I haven't apologised for anything the last week as she is on the other side of the Atlantic ocean.


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

It sounds like you have a pretty good idea about the house of cards you dealt yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

iBolt said:


> PS: I am no dufus that's incapable of holding his own in an intellectual discussion. I hold a Masters Degree in Politics, host public meeting between policy makers and stakeholders, get heat from opposition party supporters during public meetings etc but with these, people still can respectfully agree to disagree with me and we still get on great. For my wife however, hell no! Being right and being seen as the more hurt party is more important.
> 
> I guess my biggest shortcoming is that having heard and seen these all before, I literally just shut down. I isolate myself from her cos I feel so harshly dealt with and disrespected despite my best efforts. This drives her nuts. I just get fed up of always apologising for something so I stop...until the next time, then the next time though I haven't apologised for anything the last week as she is on the other side of the Atlantic ocean.


The best part is apologizing for what she did.

Really makes a guy feel good about himself.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Orpheus said:


> It sounds like you have a pretty good idea about the house of cards you dealt yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is moving in the right direction.

Most of us went into separation going "What the...??"

iBolt, you are in good company here, as I stated before.

If you need to vent, then vent. If you need advice just ask (or it will probably be offered freely as long as you are cool with that).

It sounds like you know where your part in the problem is, so now I challenge you. What are YOU going to do about it? Remember, healing and improving is all about you. If she comes back in the process, consider that a bonus. But you need to work on you, and try not to worry about her. Only she can fix herself, it's not our place to do it for them.

Take a moment and think about things in your life that are important other than your W, and focus on those for now.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

LockeCPM4 said:


> He is moving in the right direction.
> 
> Most of us went into separation going "What the...??"
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Why the emphasis on the "second time"?

Did you learn anything the first time?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Why the emphasis on the "second time"?
> 
> Did you learn anything the first time?


I obviously didn't learn enough. I have learnt about how to choose a marriage partner and to trust my gut feelings. I ignored the red flags but the risk prone part of me ploughed through anyways. There was no such feeling pre- first marriage. Things went very sour and dangerous after 8 years of marriage hence why I have my kids full time now but I had to get out first and hope for a human being as a judge not one of those the woman is best for kids types. The truth is I don't know where this will end up. A false start need not mean an unhappy ending. Choices can be made though harder work will be required nevertheless changes can be made.

If there's anything I've also learned, it is that love is TOTALLY overrated. All those romantic books that kids grow up reading should either burnt or seriously re written. Too many, especially women. I'd guess come into marriage expecting totally unrealistic things.which is a setup for shock. At least that is my experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you consider failing a "second time" to be humiliating?

If I may ask, how old are you?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

yes I do. I am 36, 37 soon
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

iBolt said:


> yes I do. I am 36, 37 soon
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look at it this way.

If you learn what you need to learn this time, you likely have more than half your adult life to live - getting it right.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Satya said:


> iBolt, I'm sorry for what's happened. I was in an LDR with my ex for 5 years before we married (him from UK, I from US). We also met online. Sounds you two were living/working apart for much less time (?) but distance can really test a relationship in all the ugliest ways.
> 
> I had to move back to the US during our separation, there was no choice for me as there was no question we would D. I needed the support of my family. I can't understand your wife's decision to move back though. Had she ever lived in the UK before the move? You mention quite a bit of counseling. Could you share a bit more about what led to the initial troubles?


My initial post is here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/54701-confused-afraid.html

General theme is that she says she has needs that I am not meeting. I tell her that while i do not fully understand these 'needs' thing, I am trying to meet them as best I can bearing in mind that I have 3 kids (all under 10) who have been through so much. They're in my full custody and I take it upon myself to be there for them emotionally and in other ways as a father.

She feels she is always vying for attention and she is always least on my priority list. This is her reality and it does not matter what I think to the contrary as far as she is concerned. I REALLY STRONGLY believe that people have become too focused on needs needs needs and how these ought to be met by their partner or else bye bye. I hate the 5 love languages book as I think it just gets people focusing so much on what their love languages are and if their partner isn't meeting these then they must be selfish.

This sums up our issues. Mind you, if you were a fly on our wall, you would think she is was the only one with needs that I, the selfish and uncaring husband, is unwilling to meet. She sees rejection, spousal abandonment and suspicion in far too many things that I no longer have the emotional wherewithal to deal with. The constant criticism, nagging and harsh judgments simply drove ever bigger wedges between us. She sees everything as black or white. I just switch off, isolate myself knowing what's coming again. Looootttsss of contention and argument....


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> If you learn what you need to learn this time, you likely have more than half your adult life to live - getting it right.


Thanks Conrad


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

You said you are making surprising progress on my thread. Tell us about it.

This place isn't just for the bad news you know


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

LockeCPM4 said:


> You said you are making surprising progress on my thread. Tell us about it.
> 
> This place isn't just for the bad news you know


The good news I guess is that W sent an interesting email recently saying she loves me and that she recognises that there are things about her past, well before we even met, which she needs to deal with. Essentially, she talked about how these things cause her to self loathe etc.

These were things I did not have the courage to raise with her when I got the blame for everything and was never good enough. So I took some comfort in that but the difficult thing for me now is that the lack of communication and increasing uncertainty is creating havoc for me.

I am living an increasingly independent life. Heavy and frequent gym sessions, making new friends there, just keeping busy and me seeing that my world is not falling apart without her is making me wonder what ever next.

I can now see why many folks do not recommend separation as a way of dealing with marital problems.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

iBolt said:


> She talked about how these things cause her to self loath etc.


IBolt, if she has strong BPD traits, that self hatred is to be expected. BPDers typically are filled with self loathing, as I discussed in your thread -- near the end of my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/54701-confused-afraid.html#post1029081.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

BPD traits are common in these situations.

The tough part is that the victims of such a disorder rarely see that anything is wrong with them. It creates a vicious cycle that does not end...


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## legiox (Sep 2, 2012)

Man I still remember my counseling meeting last week. I was nothing but a horrible husband according to her. Not one time did she fess up to her faults. Was pretty shocking. She blamed me for the DWI she got 2 years ago. Really? Blaming me for a DWI? OMG


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## WhatKatyShouldHaveDone (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi iBolt

Please don't think that love is overrated. You sound incredibly intelligent and thoughtful, and it sounds as though you love your wife. Most importantly you were/are willing to work on your marriage, you didn't just point the finger then give up on everything. Commitment, courage and faith are all aspects of real love, and real love can never be overrated!

I come on here feeling love-sick, morose, rather pitiful actually, then I see all these decent, 'normal' people, just like you, willing to do whatever it takes, willing to take responsibility, willing to do the hard graft, willing to fall in love again, and it just makes me MAD.  

We do not deserve to be treated this way, I don't even know you, but I feel very strongly that *you do not deserve to be treated this way.* That you have so much more to offer than what your wife is currently able to appreciate, or even experience. And that you should get on with living your life, open to the idea finding a woman who is capable of 'real' love, and if in time that ends up being your wife - great, if not, great.

Win-Win?? It's what I keep telling myself anyway....

I also live in the UK and the more posts I read (been lurking, sometimes posting for, oooo, 8 months now) from again, decent 'normal' blokes like yourself just makes me think, who the hell is my husband?? I thought he was one of your lot - one of the good guys? This cannot be happening to me!! You'd think 8 months and I'd be a little further into acceptance territory!

You've inspired me to actually start my own thread anyway, so I'll stop hijacking, and thank you, and remember, don't give up on love!! Love always gets two thumbs up :smthumbup:


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

The truth is that though I see many of the characteristic traits of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) that Uptown described in my wife - I am in denial. Heck I see some of that in almost everyone around me..actually not (that's the denial and rationalisation again).

This is just so frustrating. I sometimes wish I was one of those men who just does not give a fuschia about stuff like these. Those guys who just would NOT deal with the kind of drama that relationships bring up at times. My mum was SHOCKED when she came to visit me and kids to see that my W had literally packed everything of hers out of the house. Her view was (she is VERY OLD SCHOOL) -that is it! She's gone and don't let her back in the house...

Then our MC, who is now only seeing me because W is in the US, is pretty much effectively telling me to move on. She cannot/will not tell me to get a divorce but having shown her a couple of email exchanges between W and I over few months while together, she (MC) was flabbagasted. She was like, "If my husband was to ever tell me that he could not fault my efforts in our marriage as you have done to your wife here - I would be over the moon" She was just shocked at my W's response to this email in which I was just always apologising for something or the other.

Why am I such a fusching fool for punishment?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Because you are codependent.

Work on that.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

WhatKatyShouldHaveDone said:


> Hi iBolt
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Why am I such a fusching fool for punishment?


As Conrad pointed out, you likely have strong aspects of codependency in your personality -- as I do. This means that you likely are an excessive caregiver whose desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). The best explanation I've seen for how we got to be this way (through our childhood experiences) is provided by therapist Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?.


> I see many of the characteristic traits of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) that Uptown described in my wife ... Heck I see some of that in almost everyone around me.


IBolt, that's okay. You SHOULD be seeing BPD traits in everybody around you. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of those traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. This is why, like all the other PDs, BPD is called a "spectrum disorder." We all exhibit the traits to some degree.

At issue, then, is NOT whether your W has the BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. At issue is whether she has most of them at a strong level. I don't know the answer to that question. Indeed, I've never even met the lady. But I am confident you can spot the red flags if you've taken time to read about them, e.g., my brief overview at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as verbal abuse, distrustfulness, lack of impulse control, and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you.

Of course, only a professional can determine whether her traits are so severe as to constitute full blown BPD. That's why I suggested you speak with a clinical psych for a visit or two to obtain a candid professional view. Yet, even when the traits fall well short of that diagnostic threshold, they can make your life miserable and undermine a marriage. Hence, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married to her, it simply does not matter whether her traits meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." What matters is whether they are so strong that you are unhappy much of the time and the children are being harmed by the fighting and verbal abuse.

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify girls you didn't want to date because they were too selfish and grandiose -- without knowing whether they met 100% of the criteria for having Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without knowing whether she met all the criteria for having Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without knowing whether they had full blown Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

UPDATE:

My wife and I spoke on phone for first time in 3 weeks. Seemed like 3 centuries though we have been communicating by email. Basically we ended up fighting again. She wanted to have facetime contact via internet with my youngest this Saturday for his birthday. I said sure but please be aware that having not heard from you in a while, he and his older siblings will want o know when you're coming back. You don't know and neither do I. I just don't want them facing all this uncertainty. It's taken a lot of work for me to settle them after our separation.

Then bam! Hell burst its banks. She felt I was trying to shield my kids (all her step kids) from her. All I wanted her to understand was that there may well be an emotional cost to the kids seeing her and then not knowing when they'll talk with her again.

Things got mean and again came the laundry list. You did not do this or that....you hate me, you are angry with me etc. I told her I had moved on from these negative feeling and resentment as they were major obstacles. I was then shocked when she said that I brought out the worst in her, something which never happened in her previous relationships.

That was the last straw for me. For context, she hates the guys she dated before me. Two cheated on her (she caught one in bed with another), one pretty much ruined her medical school career (he gets the blame mostly), another was hooked on porn (as a feminist - she cannot stand porn, neither can I). To then compare me to these men (has been done before) was just heart breaking.

I just feel nothing has changed much. I am the enemy. She then informed me yesterday that "Now that i know who you are, I am trying to decide IF I can be happy married to who you are knowing you are not going to change at the core"...

Eventually, something will have to give. I cannot keep dealing with all these crap.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Question for you:

Is there anything wrong with wanting to know if my wife from whom I am separated is seeing a counsellor for her self declared 'issues and self loathing'?

I am continuing to see our MC (separately) to avoid stonewalling when upset but to discuss things. I am very upfront with her about so she knows I am working on being better and to reassure also but she ABSOLUTELY refuses to engage this question of mine. I think she is seeing a therapist but I think it is worthwhile sharing insights together IF the purpose of separation is to come together again. Right?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Is there anything wrong with wanting to know if my wife from whom I am separated is seeing a counsellor for her self declared 'issues and self loathing'?


No, nothing that I can see wrong. I am surprised you would ask. It is natural for you to be concerned about a woman you still love. Unlike a BPDer, you are still aware of those feelings because you do not split off your love, putting it out of reach of your conscious mind. But perhaps I don't understand what you are asking here.


> I am very upfront with her about so she knows I am working on being better and to reassure also but she ABSOLUTELY refuses to engage this question of mine. I think she is seeing a therapist but I think it is worthwhile sharing insights together IF the purpose of separation is to come together again. Right?


Yes, that usually is the express purpose of "separation." Once a person decides not to reconcile, he not only separates but also files for divorce. You apparently have not reached that point yet.

But why are you so reluctant to move to the next step of filing for divorce? Let's recap your events: Due to your long-distance dating, you actually spent only two months together before getting married. Even during that courtship period, she was starting fights with you. Since the marriage about a year ago, she has started numerous fights and threatened you with D every 4 or 5 weeks throughout the marriage. 

Now she has fully abandoned you and your children by moving to the other side of the Atlantic ocean, taking ALL her possessions with her. She announced she is diviorcing you. You even told your children she was doing so. Why, then, are you considering this to be only "a separation"? In my view, you should be describing it as "a blessing, a gift from God."


> I am continuing to see our MC (separately) to avoid stonewalling when upset but to discuss things.


If your descriptions are accurate, your W's issues go FAR beyond a simple lack of communication skills, which is what MCs are so good at handling. IMO, this is why MC is useless despite your saying "we met with at least 4 MCs before she departed for the US." I urge you to stop seeing MCs because they lack the training to even recognize disorders such as BPD, much less know how to treat it.

Instead, you should be seeing an IC -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you -- and your 3 kids -- have been dealing with. Even if your W stops seeing MCs and starts seeing a highly trained psychologist, you still cannot rely on that psych for candid information. For anyone married to an abusive angry spouse, relying on HER therapist to give you a diagnosis likely will be a _disastrous course of action_ if she has strong BPD traits. I say this for three reasons.

*First, HER psychologist may tell you absolutely nothing.* Because BPDers generally are excellent actors, it is a cakewalk for them to hide their BPD traits during a 50-minute session held only once a week. It therefore can take a psychiatrist a year or two to see the dysfunctional behavior you saw all week long -- and it is highly unlikely a BPDer will remain in therapy that long (in the unlikely event you persuade her to even start).

Yet, even assuming that the psych has sufficient time to identify a BPDer's disorder, it is unlikely that the psych will ever tell you. Therapists are loath to tell a BPDer -- _much less tell her spouse_ -- the true diagnosis. Giving her the name of her disorder almost certainly will result in her immediately quitting therapy. And, in the unlikely event she stays in therapy, telling her may cause her behavior to become WORSE, not better (by giving her a new identity as "the BPDer"). 

Moreover, therapists know that listing the diagnosis as "BPD" likely means insurance companies will refuse to cover it. It therefore is common for the "diagnosis" to be listed, instead, as one of the side effects or comorbid disorders, such as depression, anxiety, or adult ADHD -- all of which are covered by insurance.

Remember, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. Like an attorney, he is ethically bound to protect his sick client -- even if you occasionally attend the sessions together with your W. Hence, relying on her therapist's advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney's advice during a divorce.

I am sensitive to this withholding of BPD information because, for 15 years, I took my unstable, abusive exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists (and two MCs) -- at a cost of over $200,000. Significantly, NOT ONE of them ever told me the name of her disorder even though I sometimes attended the sessions with her. Instead, they followed the usual practice of using code words and talking about the Axis I disorders that are covered by insurance.

For example, the last psychologist -- whom my exW saw weekly for five years -- always said "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask for a diagnosis. At the end of that five years, when I was angry and thus very insistent on being told exactly what was wrong with my exW, this "no labels" psych reluctantly conceded that she has a "thought disorder." Duhh. Well, of course, that is exactly what BPD is!

Moreover, the BPD books I've bought all read like a biography of my exW's life. She exhibits all nine BPD traits very strongly and, for many years, had been sexually abused by her own father. At age 13, when she was strong enough to fight him off, he started beating her regularly. Significantly, my experience with psychologists is very common, as I've found when communicating with hundreds of other "Nons" like me at the BPD forums.

*Second, being able to spot BPD red flags is an important skill. *Even if psychiatrists could be relied upon to be candid with you, they are never around when you need them the most -- when looking for a suitable mate. Significantly, anyone on this forum who has tolerated an abusive spouse for more than a year is at GREAT RISK of leaving that abuser only to run into the arms of another one just like him. This is why so many of the folks complaining about abusive partners on this forum also complain that their ex-partners had been abusive too. And this likely is why you find yourself married to an abusive W only a year after leaving an 8-year marriage to a mentally disordered first wife.

It therefore is important for abused partners like us to learn how to spot all nine BPD traits so that, when we escape the toxic relationship, we won't keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. Because we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits, it is easy for us to spot strong occurrences of them in other people.

*Third, a diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you.* As I noted earlier, even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable, harm your 3 kids, and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean he doesn't have strong BPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein in client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 90% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) eventually realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM-5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no bus coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk.

Again, I suggest you stop seeing the MC and start seeing a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to find out what you and your kids have been dealing with. I also suggest that, while you are waiting for an appointment, you start reading _Stop Walking on Eggshells._ It is the best selling book targeted to the spouses of BPDers.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bolt,

This is part of your awakening.

When is it "her" fault?

It's the ex's fault that this didn't happen for her. It's this guy's fault that they broke up?

It's your fault for standing up for your kids.

Get the picture?

She doesn't "get" mad.

She IS mad - and simply looking for a place to dump it.




iBolt said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> My wife and I spoke on phone for first time in 3 weeks. Seemed like 3 centuries though we have been communicating by email. Basically we ended up fighting again. She wanted to have facetime contact via internet with my youngest this Saturday for his birthday. I said sure but please be aware that having not heard from you in a while, he and his older siblings will want o know when you're coming back. You don't know and neither do I. I just don't want them facing all this uncertainty. It's taken a lot of work for me to settle them after our separation.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

How about this:

Cool... firm... dispassionate...

"I'm not ok with dumping anger on me."


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## 381917 (Dec 15, 2011)

Please don't waste any more time on her. Do not let her talk to your kids. She has already hurt them enough. You told them you and your w were divorcing. Keep your word on that. Divorce her. Eliminate her completely from your life and their.


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## WhatKatyShouldHaveDone (Jun 12, 2012)

ibolt - how's it going?

Just want to reiterate, now that you're talking of separation and not divorce; You. Deserve. Better.

We all have flaws and faults, and can we can all be irritating to live with on a daily basis. We all make mistakes and get it wrong. Unlike her, you were prepared to work on things. Don't allow her to re-write history to turn you into the big bad wolf. 

Think about it; If you WERE the big bad wolf - you most certainly would not be spending any time worrying about the fact that you may be the big bad wolf!

Let yourself off the hook.

Your wife sounds very very angry, and she is entrenched in victim mode. She clearly has A LOT of her own crapola to wade through before she is even in a place where she can BEGIN to work with you on your marriage. 

It is a long, loooooong road. Which isn't necessarily a problem - except your wife will not even acknowledge that she has any kind problem in the first place.

Until she does this, and owns up to her share (50%) it is totally game over.

But that's ok. _Because_; say it once more with feeling; You. Deserve. BETTER


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