# Porn vs Erotica: same problems?



## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

I hadn't given it much consideration until this morning, but another post made it "real". I see in the addiction forum all of the time how porn use by men has ruined marriages, but erotica such as 50 shades, some of the vampire stories, etc, are never mentioned as ruining a marriage when it is used by the woman.

Do you consider it on the same level, porn for men and erotica for women?

I ask because for 'most' men, we just need a little visual stimulation and we can get going, for quite a few women the erotica seems to have the same effect for them.


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## marriedglad (Dec 5, 2011)

Reminds me of this:


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

movealong said:


> I hadn't given it much consideration until this morning, but another post made it "real". I see in the addiction forum all of the time how porn use by men has ruined marriages, but erotica such as 50 shades, some of the vampire stories, etc, are never mentioned as ruining a marriage when it is used by the woman.
> 
> Do you consider it on the same level, porn for men and erotica for women?
> 
> I ask because for 'most' men, we just need a little visual stimulation and we can get going, for quite a few women the erotica seems to have the same effect for them.


I don't think you can make blanket statements because it varies based on the individual using it.

There are men and women who use both in a healthy way and some who use it in an unhealthy way. I think you have to look at each situation under it's own merits.

If a man uses porn as his "escape" and in turn disregards his wife, that's wrong. Just as there are women who use erotica as an escape and ignore their husbands.

There are husbands and wives who watch porn together and read erotica together to enhance their love life, that's good.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

movealong said:


> Do you consider it on the same level, porn for men and erotica for women?


I understand what you're saying, but do not think your terminology is correct.

The word, "Pornography" comes to us from the French _pornographie_, which in turn is derived from the Greek, πορνογραφος. (pornographos)

It's a compound word formed by fusing the feminine noun, πορνή (Prostitute) with the infinitive, γραφειν (to write) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."

This word was coined long before the invention of the camera to describe a *sexually explicit story*

That is still the primary definition in English dictionaries, so what you are describing as "Erotica" is actually pornography in the purest sense of the word.


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Will pip in with what you'd expect: porn or erotic literature (I've always called romance novels/literotica "lady porn") or whatever. If it adds to the relationship then it's fine. If it takes away from it, there's a problem.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

It seems like once a month this topic is brought up, and ultimately, there's never a consensus. 

I do think though, for women written erotic fulfills different needs. I'd say that you get a lot of women falling for 50 Shades or Twilight not purely for the sexual charge but because they are trying to fulfill some emotional lack. They like living vicariously and imagine being the object of desire and experiencing not just the physical sensations but the emotional thrill as well. It's a form of escapism. So, I think it's different in that way. 

As Dad&Hubby notes, that could be damaging to a relationship as well, if that's used instead of trying to connect with a partner. But it does ask the question what happened first, the disconnect or the erotic reading. Did the erotica reading start the disconnect or did a pre-existing relationship issue lead to attempting to fulfill that void? 

I do however think that if erotic or visual porn use is a dealbreaker for someone, that should be an honest part of the consideration if a relationship is feasible. And not start downplaying a partner's feelings on the topic by saying "it's just what men do." As I noted in another thread, "just" and "only" are dismissive words.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Thank you for the terminology review. I appreciate learning new things. To be clear, I am using it in it's more common forms today. 

I saw a facebook discussion similar to this topic, and there is a post in the Lady's Lounge that brought it to mind. One of the response on facebook came from a guy who said:

"Tell me again how your husband's porn viewing is ruining your marriage but 50 Shades and vampires are just fine."

This was after one of the ladies mentioned 50 Shades, btw. Until today, I really didn't equate them, but seeing them in this light it seems that they would be.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

movealong said:


> Thank you for the terminology review. I appreciate learning new things. To be clear, I am using it in it's more common forms today.


You're very welcome. I'm not trying to be pedantic because I think this dovetails with the spirit of your thread here.

What I understand you to be asking on this thread is if there is any real ethical difference between the two mediums in marriage (?) 

I would say, very little. Both are pornography. A lot depends on the individual and whether they can maintain their mental balance or not, but both are potentially destructive in a relationship. Both have the potential to divert sexual energy away from our spouse inwardly into a fantasy world where mere mortals can't compete.

It's important for both men and women alike to not be hypocritical about this and not attempt to portray their preference in pornographical entertainment as fundamentally different.

I would submit that when common English words are redefined (Either more narrowly or more broadly) into something other than what dictionaries actually say they mean, there is often an agenda involved somewhere along the way.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anything can become a sexual distraction from your spouse.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PS...what is "brazzers"?


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Brazzers is an "erotica" website... haha


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> What I understand you to be asking on this thread is if there is any real ethical difference between the two mediums in marriage (?)
> 
> I would say, very little.


The fundamental difference is this: written pornography is ink on paper (or letters on a screen); visual pornography is (except for anime, etc) real people.

Ethical issues arise in relation to how these real people are treated.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> The fundamental difference is this: written pornography is ink on paper (or letters on a screen); visual pornography is (except for anime, etc) real people.
> 
> Ethical issues arise in relation to how these real people are treated.


--Which is why I was careful to add the qualifier, "In marriage." 

I do understand the broader issues, but the OP seems to be asking for opinions on whether one or the other is inherently more harmful to a relationship. (i.e. "Ruining a marriage")


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I'm not into either, but I think the main difference is that erotica relies on the reader's imagination, whereas porn involves a few clicks of a mouse and, hey presto, there are real people having sex.

Bottom line for me, be it erotica or porn, if it (or anything else) bothered my partner or impacted on our sex life I would stop doing it. Reality is more important to me than any form of fantasy.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> PS...what is "brazzers"?


Don't Google it...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

as concerned to marriage I feel there the same.

IF they detract from your sex life.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

There have been studies done that seem to prove that women use erotica as a means to "connect" with their spouse, whereas men tend to use porn to "disconnect" with their spouse.

These are only tendencies, and do not reflect everyone's experience.

Having said all of this though, I feel that 50 shades is pretty pathetic - as far as erotica goes - and I think it falls into the "disconnect" kind of erotica. This is my opinion of the book - yours may differ.

I think that Faithful wife is right. Anything can "distract" you from your spouse. It is up to each one of us to make sure that we do not let the little things of life take away from our marriages. We all know when we allow ourselves to be distracted.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

50 Shades, starting from a woman's fanfiction fantasy of Twilight and edited to make it an original story, has been the new staple of the romance genre for while...where a more internet porn-informed public is the market. I haven't read it, but if it is like any other book out there...a generally cypher-ish character...confused about her identity, yet probably career successful...stumbles across an enigmatic figure who bests her psychologically...and removes her will to help her explore new things about herself. "He is such a bast***, but I just...can't...tear myself...away...." Easy to make fun of, just as it probably it is easy for women to judge the poor writing AND acting in porn films...not to mention the conspicuous amount of ridiculously proportionate silicone. 

Yet, at the same time, there does create a sense of competition in SOME relationships when such media is utilized. The women in porn are airbrushed and streamlined, down for anything at anytime with anyone...where her body is willing and the men are typically downplayed, cyphers for the watcher to fantasize his own placement. Same in women's erotic fiction, they are written to the pulse of the reader, starting with a slow emotional hook buildup, where the men, either brutes or sophisticates...or sophisticated brutes, are moody, driven, have an urge to release...and the woman is his target to sexually annihilate until he discovers that she "is different" and that he starts to love her. These things are edited to elicit the most favorable response from those watching or reading it. 

My point is that many spouses feel they need to compete with these constructs as often reality just doesn't offer the same euphoric reward as fantasy (Check that...the reward is often not as easily obtained)...and do sometimes have reason to question things when porn/erotica is in the picture when marital sex is poor, communication is poor, and there is emotional withdrawal. Sure, sometimes erotica/porn provides inspiration for some, but at the same time, many spouses don't know how to feel when spouse out-of-the blue starts wanting to intro some BDSM elements or starts making requests that he.she never knew about before seeing porn. How does the requesting spouse respond when other spouse is uncomfortable? Do they get angry, dejected, and try to get their needs met elsewhere? Is there open communication to talk about the change or revelation of their tastes? At the same time how does one respond to a spouse asking to take things up a notch...does he/she freak out, judge their spouse, call them a perv? 

The way I look at it...when people are married...there should be NO BOUNDARIES to how they ought to share and communicate with each other, so that they can come to cooperation and understanding about how best to achieve each other's needs..but at the same time...people need to keep their fantasies in check...and not to get so ramped up on porn and erotica that it ruins your ability to appreciate your spouse...because IF you don't know how to differentiate between that which is a polished product, designed for you to hunger for more, and that which is real and takes a lot of investment and work...then that's a problem.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

movealong said:


> I hadn't given it much consideration until this morning, but another post made it "real". I see in the addiction forum all of the time how porn use by men has ruined marriages, but erotica such as 50 shades, some of the vampire stories, etc, are never mentioned as ruining a marriage when it is used by the woman.
> 
> Do you consider it on the same level, porn for men and erotica for women?
> 
> I ask because for 'most' men, we just need a little visual stimulation and we can get going, for quite a few women the erotica seems to have the same effect for them.


A man who shuns his wife in favor or visual porn is abusing porn. A woman who shuns her husband in favor of erotica is not necessarily abusing erotica.:::ducking head::::

Before you all jump down my throat, just hear me out?

Times are changing now, women in their twenties grew up with the internet and information has always been at their finger tips. Information they didn't know about comes across their screens, they didn't have to search for it. They certainly didn't have to ask anyone about it! Women in their twenties have a much broader understanding of their own healthy sexuality as a result. If they wanted to know if sitting on a toilet seat could get you pregnant, they could find out. If they heard the word clitoris and didn't know what it was, where it was, or what it was supposed to do, they could find out!

But older women did not have this kind of access to information. Developing a healthy understanding of their sexuality was left to friends and adults, who usually left out a LOT! The message on sexuality that was (it's changing now thank god!) driven home to women was that only slvts liked sex. Being a slvt was bad. Don't like sex until you're married. 

Men don't get the same message and even on these forums the message to women remains the same in very subtle forms...if you liked sex before you were married, your husband is going to have a difficult time dealing with his jealousy! And if you really liked sex, well, just don't answer his questions.

Enter erotic porn for women cue the applause! FormerSelf above gave only a small sample of what women read. Did you know women are the biggest buyers and writers of gay porn? Wanna know why? It's because gay porn is two men, where sex and overt sexuality is socially acceptable. Men are supposed to be horn dogs, two men together exclude the problems of writing in characters with virtue and modesty. Two gay men together can be all over themselves and each other and anyone else and it is completely acceptable and always portrayed as totally masculine! Women dig it because women respond to sexually aroused situations! It is liberating!

Lastly, erotica is built on a foundation of a relationship. NOT so with visual porn! And that is a vital distinction!

A woman who shuns her husband in favor of erotica may have sex addiction problems, but she may not. She may be wondering why she never feels so freely aroused with her husband but does with erotica. She may be working out how she got to be so kinky. She may be angry at her husband for something else he isn't picking up on. She may be discovering that she IS allowed to want things she always was ashamed to admit even to herself! She may be a tad angry about that too. 

Erotica gives women permission to be the sexual creature we were designed to be, but taught not to be!

If your wife is shunning you because of her erotica, it is a completely different ball game than a man shunning his wife because of visual porn.

And let's not forget, a woman can masturbate and still be available for sex. Not all men can say the same.

If your wife is shunning you in favor of erotica, read what she's reading and open the dialogue. The same tactic will not work with visual porn because there is no relationship in visual porn and it is THAT freedom from the burdens of relationships, and all the anxiety associated that the porn addict reaches for.


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## kittiebee (Jan 11, 2014)

I personally don't have a problem with porn, i would however have a problem with it if my OH used it rather than having sex with me

I think most women have a problem with porn because their men keep it secret, its a hidden thing... women hate secrets, we know your up to something be that a need to catch up with golf buddies or research the latest oral sex position... we would quite like you to research oral sex on us 

why do we read these sexy novels, watch True blood... because the man looks at the girl with I want to rip your clothes of eyes.. i am going to be told off by some people..but yes we want you to look us at like you want to rip our clothes off....


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

This is all very true...as just as there is a whole gamut of types of niche material out there for men...that same goes for women who I am sure like certain tweaks here and there in their fantasy material. I have to admit, my views are certainly colored by my experience where my wife is a sex addict...so the constructs I offered in the "standard" romance template, to me is the basic starter template. My wife got bored pretty quick with the standard stuff and enjoyed the variety that Anon Pink mentioned is out there... such as BDSM, gay...wife was not so much into lesbian, not a lot of romance fluff...more into intense and taboo material. I wasn't too troubled by it in the beginning, but as I tried to engage her on the subject (something when we were younger, she would vehemently ascribe that porn/erotica was WRONG...but now she was experimenting) it was something she didn't want to really discuss...and she started to develop a whole lot of instant irritation during sex. I assumed it was her reading material...but that was just child's play to all the flirting at work and online encounters that I knew nothing about. 

I've said before elsewhere, the interplay of porn/erotica is up to an individual couple...as they can best deem if it is benign, beneficial, or deterimental to their relationship...and hopefully said couple can have the maturity to be open and communicative.

However Anon Pink, although I see what you you are saying...but such as I said with my wife...she hates the emotional elements in female erotica...preferred rape scenarios. But at the same time...what you said about women overcoming the culture of sex/body-shame is a real thing...won't discount that...but it just seems sucky that married people can fall into a pattern where they take and keep sex in their separate corners sometimes and forget to share.


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## kittiebee (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm sorry, I didn't read previous messages. just responded to the initial question

please take care FormerSelf x


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Could not agree more FormerSelf. Sorry you went through such an ordeal.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Good times!:smthumbup:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Lastly, erotica is built on a foundation of a relationship. NOT so with visual porn! And that is a vital distinction!
> 
> A woman who shuns her husband in favor of erotica may have sex addiction problems, but she may not. She may be wondering why she never feels so freely aroused with her husband but does with erotica. She may be working out how she got to be so kinky. She may be angry at her husband for something else he isn't picking up on. She may be discovering that she IS allowed to want things she always was ashamed to admit even to herself! She may be a tad angry about that too.
> 
> ...


Very interesting perspective! 

I can't help but think, though, that the shunning aspect isn't so very different between the two. True, women are given comparatively fewer opportunities to explore their sexuality, and may need assistance/support coming into their sexual selves. But to actually shun a loving spouse in favour of these fantasies seems to me to be on par with a guy shunning his loving wife for porn. In both cases, it's stepping out a real human relationship in favour of an idealized and shallow fantasy.

I guess I'm questioning the "relationship" aspect of written porn. In my admittedly limited experience the woman in erotica is usually some ridiculous naive waif type that is swept away by some equally ridiculous hero type. Is that really a much deeper foundation than hard guy meets horny girl?

Personally, I find the stereotypes propagated by both forms equally offensive, and not terribly helpful for developing healthy sexual relations with a real live person. Add actually shunning the real person to that, and you have a recipe for disaster in both cases.

Would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Very interesting perspective!
> 
> I can't help but think, though, that the shunning aspect isn't so very different between the two. True, women are given comparatively fewer opportunities to explore their sexuality, and may need assistance/support coming into their sexual selves. But to actually shun a loving spouse in favour of these fantasies seems to me to be on par with a guy shunning his loving wife for porn. In both cases, it's stepping out a real human relationship in favour of an idealized and shallow fantasy.
> 
> ...


The shunning is very different between the two. Visual porn has NO relationship. None. It's about sex and nothing else. Erotica is always predicated on the relationship, always. 

While both visual and written porn portray idealized and unrealistic caricatures of the principals, written porn actually takes great pains to try to present a woman more realistically so the reader can identify easier. There are more erotic stories written with a curvy woman than with a waif like woman. However the male principal is always big...everywhere. Because no woman wants a man she outweighs. 

Shunning a husband in favor of written porn speaks more to her lack of insight into her needs, than the husbands lack of care. In most situations, believing that most men want a happy wife and will therefore take the steps they know to take in order to secure her happiness, the husband is relying on his early models of what a good husband does and what his wife indicates she wants from a good husband. He must rely on her to speak up on how she wishes to be seduced. While the men in her books never have to ask, "rub here, over here, too much..?" And when they do ask, the men in the books, well they don't ask, they demand. "Show me how you like it.." They order, "spread your legs and touch yourself..."

And here is the cruelest part. Woman has shunned her husband in favor of erotica. His reaction is self doubt. He becomes less confident and he tries harder to nice his way back into her heart. Meanwhile she's reading and salivating over the pirate king who stole his woman, stripped her down and tied her to his bed not caring about her objections and gave her earth shattering orgasms while he explained to her his rules. Or she's reading about security software millionaire who has been tasked with guarding her as he falls hopelessly in love with her and thinks her ample curves are the hottest thing since sliced bread! Meanwhile, back in real life she puts on her jeans that are too tight, mentions this fact to her H and he says..."you look fine, if they're too tight go put on another pair." Instead, if she had spoken of her self doubt in man-speak, he would have been able to offer the reassurance she was looking for.

In terms of shunning a husband due to her trying to come to terms with her own desires, she feels rejection from him, whether real or imagined and she's trying to work that out. We all know what she SHOULD do, but everyone comes to marriage with their own baggage.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink,

I value insights into the female perspective, (Pretty much the primary reason I'm on TAM these days.) so enjoyed reading what you wrote above. 

I really hope this doesn't come across as argumentative, but is it really fair to offer circumstances possibly mitigating a woman's shunning of her husband in favor of erotica while denying (via exclusion) that circumstances similarly could exist for a man _vis-à-vis_ visual pornography?

I'm not saying this because I believe there are any valid excuses at all for shunning a partner who cares about you (I don't and I hope I've been clear on that.) but couldn't your paragraph simply be rewritten thus?

"A man who shuns his wife in favor of visual pornography may have sex addiction problems, but he may not. He may be wondering why he never feels so freely aroused with his wife but does with visual porn. He may be working out how he got to be so kinky. He may be angry at his wife for something else she isn't picking up on. He may be discovering that he IS allowed to want things he always was ashamed to admit even to himself! He may be a tad angry about that too." 

For example, in my parent's generation and to a lesser degree, in mine, simply confessing a fantasy about fellatio to one's wife would be to risk not only an extremely adverse reaction in the bedroom, but denunciation as a pervert among family and friends as well. So freedom of sexual thought and freedom of sexual expression have been two very different things for men as well as women. And even today, even in the enlightenment of the post internet age, there are plenty of men out there who have learned the hard way that complete forthrightness is not appreciated by their wives, which is really sad.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Octillo, you ask a good question and the most basic answer I can give you is this.

I don't know much of anything about a man with visual porn addiction. It simply doesn't come across my radar of interesting things to understand. I do know a bit about addiction and I do know the very tangible differences between visual and written porn and I do know one or two things about a mans sexuality. Putting those together I came up with my basic understanding of the difference in relative harm to marriage caused by visual or written porn.

Pure extrapolation on my part...but it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

While I agree with you about the generational differences in accepting ones sexuality, one cannot escape the blanket of inhibition falls much more heavily on women than it does men of all generations.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

For the record, understanding motivation is not mitigating the behavior it caused. Sometimes behavior that needs to change needs the wall of limits and sometimes it needs to be understood first, so the right wall of limits can be built.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

FormerSelf said:


> 50 Shades, starting from a woman's fanfiction fantasy of Twilight and edited to make it an original story, has been the new staple of the romance genre for while...where a more internet porn-informed public is the market. I haven't read it, but if it is like any other book out there..*.a generally cypher-ish character...confused about her identity, yet probably career successful...stumbles across an enigmatic figure who bests her psychologically...and removes her will to help her explore new things about herself. "He is such a bast***, but I just...can't...tear myself...away...."* Easy to make fun of, just as it probably it is easy for women to judge the poor writing AND acting in porn films...not to mention the conspicuous amount of ridiculously proportionate silicone.


My wife and her ex boyfriend exactly.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> While I agree with you about the generational differences in accepting ones sexuality, one cannot escape the blanket of inhibition falls much more heavily on women than it does men of all generations.


In that vein, I think it's interesting that pornography in centuries past has arguably been as much for the elucidation of the reader as for their entertainment. 

_Ragionamenti_ (Reasoning) was published in 1536. _La Retorica delle Puttane_ (The Whōre's Rhetoric) was published in 1642. _L'Ecole des Filles_ (The Girls School) was published in 1655. _Aloysiæ Sigeæ Toletanæ satyra sotadica de arcanis amoris et veneris_ (Luisa Sigea Toledana's Sotadic Satire, on the Secrets of Love and Sex) was published in 1660. These works fall into a literary genre called "Whōre Diaries" which was erotic literature told from the female perspective in the form of a dialogue between two women. One would be a little older and extremely experienced sexually, usually because she had spent a portion of her youth as a courtesan or prostitute while the other would be very young, very inexperienced and very, very curious. At the time it was intended to appeal equally to both men and women, but I honestly don't know who would find it more interesting in the internet age.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Considering how few women could read, compared to men who could read, during the time frame when the *****'s Diaries where written and published I doubt very much it was written for women readers at all. Same reason why most lesbian visual porn is produced for men, not real life lesbians.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> In that vein, I think it's interesting that pornography in centuries past has arguably been as much for the elucidation of the reader as for their entertainment.
> 
> _Ragionamenti_ (Reasoning) was published in 1536. _La Retorica delle Puttane_ (The Whōre's Rhetoric) was published in 1642. _L'Ecole des Filles_ (The Girls School) was published in 1655. _Aloysiæ Sigeæ Toletanæ satyra sotadica de arcanis amoris et veneris_ (Luisa Sigea Toledana's Sotadic Satire, on the Secrets of Love and Sex) was published in 1660. These works fall into a literary genre called "Whōre Diaries" which was erotic literature told from the female perspective in the form of a dialogue between two women. One would be a little older and extremely experienced sexually, usually because she had spent a portion of her youth as a courtesan or prostitute while the other would be very young, very inexperienced and very, very curious. At the time it was intended to appeal equally to both men and women, but I honestly don't know who would find it more interesting in the internet age.


I just did a quick google search for these...and came up empty. Have you got a link?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Considering how few women could read, compared to men who could read, during the time frame when the *****'s Diaries where written and published I doubt very much it was written for women readers at all. Same reason why most lesbian visual porn is produced for men, not real life lesbians.


Reading purely for pleasure (As opposed to simply being able to read a few passages out of the Bible) was pretty much confined to the aristocracy during the Elizabethan era and Stuart period and female literacy was actually quite high in that demographic, especially in England.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> But older women did not have this kind of access to information. Developing a healthy understanding of their sexuality was left to friends and adults, who usually left out a LOT! The message on sexuality that was (it's changing now thank god!) driven home to women was that only slvts liked sex. Being a slvt was bad. Don't like sex until you're married.


So true! When I started menstruating, I asked my mother about sex. I'd heard a lot of whispering that went on between the boys at school, and really needed to know that sex wasn't as filthy as they implied it was. I remember her dismissing this with "You'll find out when you're married!"

I read The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir and, being too young to understand even half of it, was horrified to (incorrectly) conclude that I was a Lesbian. I agonized over this shameful state of affairs for at least a year, then plucked up the courage to talk about it to one of my 'worldly' older sisters. What a relief when she told me that orgasms were normal and having one alone didn't mean that I was a Lesbian!

Yes, things were a LOT different when I was young teenager...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Whatever one is reading, watching, or looking at, if it involves sexual fantasies about someone other than their spouse, it's not helpful to the marriage. "50 Shades", porn, the SI Swimsuit issue, or the hot chick or guy at work can all be equally "wrong".


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Whatever one is reading, watching, or looking at, if it involves sexual fantasies about someone other than their spouse, it's not helpful to the marriage. "50 Shades", porn, the SI Swimsuit issue, or the hot chick or guy at work can all be equally "wrong".


Pure unmitigated Bull Sh!t.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Pure unmitigated Bull Sh!t.


Geeze.... this thread was going along fine until this...

Anon, unbelievable is simple giving his or her viewpoint. If you don't agree then have a discussion. Don't just hit him with the internet version of "I'm rubber, you're glue - what ever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you..."


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sparkyjim said:


> Geeze.... this thread was going along fine until this...
> 
> Anon, unbelievable is simple giving his or her viewpoint. If you don't agree then have a discussion. Don't just hit him with the internet version of "I'm rubber, you're glue - what ever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you..."


Okay, point taken. 

Unbelievable, I apologize for being rude, insulting and dismissive. 

Please explain how you think it is possible that sexual fantasies can be controlled to the point that even in ones mind, one can remain in control of thoughts that flitter in and flitter out on a whim? We can't control who or what turns us on. Take for instance people who've developed strange fetishes, like a foot fetish or ladies underwear sniffing fetish... I doubt very much people who are excited by such things can control the fact that those things excite them. Consequently, watching a movie, looking at a fashion magazine that happens to include...say...George Clooney (please don't be gay please don't be gay) and experiencing a vivid yet fleeting thought, is again something that cannot be controlled. As such, allowing a vivid fantasy life that may or may not include ones spouse can actually help the marriage. So long as the action that is prompted by those thoughts are turned to the spouse.

I should think a man who comes to bed after his wife has been aroused by reading erotica, would be delighted to entertain her desire to be taken, particularly since she is already wet and willing!

It's not as if she, well I'll speak for myself, it's not as if I am actually desiring the pirate I've been reading about. I am aroused by the scenario, the mood and the setting. I can pretend that my husband is the pirate and our bed is the captains berth. I can go put on my soft and silky night gown and take the sash from my robe and hand it to him as I turn around with my hands behind my back. It's him, my husband the pirate captain, who has taken me captive and is about to ravish me...so long as my pretty silky night gown remains unscathed, go to it big boy!


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Anon please send my wife your books as soon as your finished reading them!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

:


richie33 said:


> Anon please send my wife your books as soon as your finished reading them!!!


:lol:

It's not so easy at that Richie. First, your wife has to know that it is safe to share these things with you. Safe meaning that you will not only encourage her erotic reading but join her erotic reading, both of your bringing your fantasies from the trashy literature to each other. She also has to feel safe that you won't alter your view of your wife being the good woman she always has been, cause remember, slvts are bad and women who like sex are slvts!

Cause who the hell has the time to set the scene of the pirate captain's berth in their own bedroom?


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :
> 
> :lol:
> 
> ...


I like when my wife is a slvt.:smthumbup: 

Choking and me just being and terrible man that makes her do bad things is better then a pirate.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Okay, point taken.
> 
> Unbelievable, I apologize for being rude, insulting and dismissive.
> 
> ...


If you told me what to do be prepared for a red booty,little lady!!! :FIREdevil:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> He must rely on her to speak up on how she wishes to be seduced. While the men in her books never have to ask, "rub here, over here, too much..?" And when they do ask, the men in the books, well they don't ask, they demand. "Show me how you like it.." They order, "spread your legs and touch yourself..."


And this is precisely why I see little difference between the formats.

Porn geared to women does tend to focus a bit more on women's pleasure, but I still think she's faking it.

Either way she is always submissive to his whims.

I get that many (most? All but me?) women do in fact have these sorts of fantasy. But I really don't see much difference in visual material that's all about male desire and written material that's all about women submitting to male desire. I don't think either is a very good teacher.

So, let's just say for example that a woman is exploring her sexuality with visual porn. Does she get the same exemption as one who does so with the written? 

I do agree 100% that women have to deal with a lot more negative conditioning and shaming about sex than men do.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> And this is precisely why I see little difference between the formats.
> 
> Porn geared to women does tend to focus a bit more on women's pleasure, but I still think she's faking it.
> 
> ...



Wait, what do you mean you still thinks she's faking it? You mean the character is faking it? How can that be?:scratchhead:

I have to tell you I have never written a scene in which the mechanics utilized that gave her an orgasm were not the very mechanics involved that have also given me an orgasm! Furthermore, the sex scenes written by writers who are men (in some cases) or women who are clearly not very experienced, are broadly exposed as being lousy reads. When a scene is written that explains exactly what is happening, the reader has to feel it herself, it has to be something she also wants to feel and it has to be something that will push her buttons, otherwise, the scene falls flat and the product doesn't sell.

Well of course erotica is geared to a woman's pleasure...that's who is buying it! Women's erotica sells well because women love love stories! And they are learning to love sex and now they want both!

Not all erotica involves dominance and submission. There is a broad genre that is straight up romance with some very loving and vanilla sex thrown in. The sex is mutual and the partners show equality in desire and response. I simply find it boring as hell so I neither read it nor write it nor edit it.

A woman exploring her sexuality gets all exemptions in my book. If visual porn is her ticket to arousal and accepting her sexual self, I say go for it sister!


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

always_alone said:


> And this is precisely why I see little difference between the formats.
> 
> Porn geared to women does tend to focus a bit more on women's pleasure, but I still think she's faking it.
> 
> ...


Haven't met a lady who isn't a little subbie at heart.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Wait, what do you mean you still thinks she's faking it? You mean the character is faking it? How can that be?:scratchhead:
> 
> I have to tell you I have never written a scene in which the mechanics utilized that gave her an orgasm were not the very mechanics involved that have also given me an orgasm! Furthermore, the sex scenes written by writers who are men (in some cases) or women who are clearly not very experienced, are broadly exposed as being lousy reads. When a scene is written that explains exactly what is happening, the reader has to feel it herself, it has to be something she also wants to feel and it has to be something that will push her buttons, otherwise, the scene falls flat and the product doesn't sell.
> 
> ...


Then I get to wank it to porn too right.

Lets be honest most chick porn involves dominance and submission,its a reality ladies like to be roughed up in the sack.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

In my younger hornier days I was as much into erotica as I was into watching porn. But I was a guy watching porn and reading erotica, which means that I skipped past all the filler stuff and went straight for the first page that mentioned c*** or b**bs, or the first scene where the clothes came off.

I am older now, and for me I don't want to or need to waste my sexual energy with porn or erotica. But I can still see where I could draw inspiration from either one, and I can see where couples who use either one as inspiration are probably having sexier romps in the bed.

I think that if you are happy with your sex life, but you want to enhance it, then porn or erotica can help you.

But, if you are not happy with your sex life then I think that porn and erotica can influence you to be even more unhappy. That was my experience, and that is what I want to share.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Quant said:


> Haven't met a lady who isn't a little subbie at heart.


Quant, meet Always alone, she is not a little subbie at heart and might just have to beat the stuffing out of you for suggesting such a thing...


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Quant, meet Always alone, she is not a little subbie at heart and might just have to beat the stuffing out of you for suggesting such a thing...


That's what they all say until they are bent over saying,"yes sir,no sir".

Also I'd like to see her try,I've boxed since I was 9 and was a bronze in the local Golden Gloves boxing competition in Boston.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Quant said:


> TI've boxed since I was 9


You wouldn't hit a lady, would you?

( now summoning my best Rodney Dangerfield...)

"She AIN'T no lady..."


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Quant said:


> Haven't met a lady who isn't a little subbie at heart.


*sigh*


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I can say from experience that erotica reading can absolutely be just as harmful for the spouse as visual porn use. For me, it is the sexual energy spent elsewhere when my sexual energies are denied or put on hold. Someone mentioned earlier how a woman can do her business and "still be available", but I'm sorry, in my case it's usually pretty obvious when my wife has done her business, and NO, she does not seem "available". It is quite clear that she seems to have a certain frequency of desire, and if that desire is fulfilled by herself, then to be frank I just "missed out". I'm certain this is not the case with every relationship, but seems to be with mine. 

If the issue is that the SO feels sexually replaced by porn or erotica, there is no difference. That is NOT to say that porn or erotica or any other of numerous stimulants cannot be successfully used without issues. Hell, I STILL watch porn and read stories and use toys with my wife rather frequently when we have sex, even though half the time it makes me feel like I'm just being "allowed" to join her masturbation (rather than it being an experience for us to both share). Only some of the times is it a hangup, and as many men in my position would agree, I'd rather have deal with the hangup and actually get some than make a scene and shut it down completely. 

I love the idea of "exemptions" for women due to suppression. In the case of many men who "use" porn, that is exactly what they are overcoming - suppression of their desires that are as active as they were when dating, but now that the new and exciting have worn off their women are bored with them, or any other of many legitimate excuses. Regardless, how is that "equal" to hold one sex to a different standard? It's plainly not, it is a pure double standard.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

always_alone said:


> *sigh*


Don't get too hot and bothered now.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Wait, what do you mean you still thinks she's faking it? You mean the character is faking it? How can that be?:scratchhead:


It was a joke, of sorts, referencing the obvious faking in typical internet porn.

I'm not trying to say that all erotic material is bad. Just that I'm not convinced the written stuff is categorically better. Maybe some of it is, but some is utter trash (and still sells like wildfire. 50 shades, for example). And visual stuff can be beautiful too.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Quant said:


> That's what they all say until they are bent over saying,"yes sir,no sir".


I really wanted to ignore this comment, but I have to say, it makes me want to go on a castration spree


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I really wanted to ignore this comment, but I have to say, it makes me want to go on a castration spree


Hate is the first step towards love.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

always_alone said:


> It was a joke, of sorts, referencing the obvious faking in typical internet porn.
> 
> I'm not trying to say that all erotic material is bad. Just that I'm not convinced the written stuff is categorically better. Maybe some of it is, but some is utter trash (and still sells like wildfire. 50 shades, for example). And visual stuff can be beautiful too.


I played classical piano for a long time that doesn't make my taste of music categorically better.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> I feel always_alone's chills from here.
> 
> Please knock it off, holy cow.


Yes truly a horror, I'll refrain from jokes then.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> It was a joke, of sorts, referencing the obvious faking in typical internet porn.
> 
> I'm not trying to say that all erotic material is bad. Just that I'm not convinced the written stuff is categorically better. Maybe some of it is, but some is utter trash (and still sells like wildfire. 50 shades, for example). And visual stuff can be beautiful too.


Sorry, the sarcasm font must have been off...:smthumbup:

As a writer of said trash.... I must agree with you we just write porn, nothing earth shattering unless you like that stuff. 

Not knocking any of it.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry, the sarcasm font must have been off...:smthumbup:
> 
> As a writer of said trash.... I must agree with you we just write porn, nothing earth shattering unless you like that stuff.
> 
> Not knocking any of it.


There's interesting smut and uninteresting smut to me not that its objective when it comes to perceptions of things that approximate art.I think I'm a pretty good sexter if I say so myself, I could be garbage to others of course.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I can say from experience that erotica reading can absolutely be just as harmful for the spouse as visual porn use. For me, it is the sexual energy spent elsewhere when my sexual energies are denied or put on hold. Someone mentioned earlier how a woman can do her business and "still be available", but I'm sorry, in my case it's usually pretty obvious when my wife has done her business, and NO, she does not seem "available". It is quite clear that she seems to have a certain frequency of desire, and if that desire is fulfilled by herself, then to be frank I just "missed out". I'm certain this is not the case with every relationship, but seems to be with mine.
> 
> If the issue is that the SO feels sexually replaced by porn or erotica, there is no difference. That is NOT to say that porn or erotica or any other of numerous stimulants cannot be successfully used without issues. *Hell, I STILL watch porn and read stories and use toys with my wife rather frequently when we have sex, even though half the time it makes me feel like I'm just being "allowed" to join her masturbation (rather than it being an experience for us to both share).* Only some of the times is it a hangup, and as many men in my position would agree, I'd rather have deal with the hangup and actually get some than make a scene and shut it down completely.
> 
> I love the idea of "exemptions" for women due to suppression. In the case of many men who "use" porn, that is exactly what they are overcoming - suppression of their desires that are as active as they were when dating, but now that the new and exciting have worn off their women are bored with them, or any other of many legitimate excuses. Regardless, how is that "equal" to hold one sex to a different standard? It's plainly not, it is a pure double standard.


This was an excellent post outlining a serious problem in your relationship. You say sometimes sex with you wife feels like she has allowed you to join in her masturbation. So her fantasy life is so powerful you feel there is no room for you anymore?

Can I suggest you make a thread over in SIM?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Apparently this is MY problem, not hers, and as such I just need to get over it. I don't know that it is that her fantasy life is so powerful - personally it seems that her desire for ME is just that dull (if existent). So the only way for her to actually enjoy it is to turn it into a masturbation scenario. Pathetic, eh? 
I've toyed with starting another thread, but I don't know that much can be done. Unfortunately my brain and my emotions on the matter are uncooperative and irreconcilable.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Apparently this is MY problem, not hers, and as such I just need to get over it. I don't know that it is that her fantasy life is so powerful - personally it seems that her desire for ME is just that dull (if existent). So the only way for her to actually enjoy it is to turn it into a masturbation scenario. Pathetic, eh?
> I've toyed with starting another thread, but I don't know that much can be done. Unfortunately my brain and my emotions on the matter are uncooperative and irreconcilable.


I'm certain it does hurt, quite a bit!

You'd be surprised, perhaps, with the help you might get starting your own thread.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Wow, this thread gave me some really good information. 

Anon Pink, I simply disagree with your assessment that women get a "pass". Men may not have been sexually "repressed" in past generations, but dang did we get some bad information from the men (older brother, uncles, friends, etc) about what sex is and what we are supposed to do. Do we then get a pass because of that wrong information? Does it matter that we were set up as young boys to think sex was supposed to be wonderful/exhilarating/fulfilling each time and that all we were required to do was be there and the woman would just love it?

I don't know. I tend to agree with the common sentiment that if it is interfering with the relationship there is no difference between porn and erotic literature.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

movealong said:


> Wow, this thread gave me some really good information.
> 
> Anon Pink, I simply disagree with your assessment that women get a "pass". Men may not have been sexually "repressed" in past generations, but dang did we get some bad information from the men (older brother, uncles, friends, etc) about what sex is and what we are supposed to do. Do we then get a pass because of that wrong information? Does it matter that we were set up as young boys to think sex was supposed to be wonderful/exhilarating/fulfilling each time and that all we were required to do was be there and the woman would just love it?
> 
> I don't know. I tend to agree with the common sentiment that if it is interfering with the relationship there is no difference between porn and erotic literature.


I don't disagree with the sentiment either. Men don't usually have sex for several years before the learn how to orgasm. Men don't usually have trouble orgasming, at least not on a regular basis. Because of this, I don't think they will ever be the same.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

My wife is a big fan of Georgette Heyer. This author is credited with the creation of the Regency romance genre and I've read a few of her books out of curiosity. (Hell, I'll read pretty much anything within arms reach) Heyer did not write actual erotic fiction; she wrote in the tradition of Jane Austen more than a century before her, where the focus was 110% on the relationship and the gradual development of romantic love between a man and a woman. 

As a male reader though, I struggle at times with these authors and not because I don't appreciate romance. A basic hurdle that both female and male authors alike face is the difficulty in creating characters of the opposite gender that will be accepted by that gender as authentic. In my amateur, bourgeois opinion, Austen was much better at this than Heyer, but even her male characters leave me scratching my head sometimes. (When they do not behave as men.) 

Having said all that, I'm curious: Austen is considered to be one of the great writers of her generation. Do writers of actual erotic fiction today do a better job at portraying a *real* male/female relationship or do their opposite gender characters tend more towards foils?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Do contemporary authors compare to the esteemed Ms. Austen on anything at all?

How DARE you suggest such a thing! Good day to your sir!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You're funny, Anon.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Do contemporary authors compare to the esteemed Ms. Austen on anything at all?
> 
> How DARE you suggest such a thing! Good day to your sir!


LOL - Sometimes the 'like' button is just not enough. 

I guess the optimist in me would like to believe we've made some progress since then.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

If there is one persons azz I would love to kick it would have to be that Mr. Darcy. I hate that dude!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RClawson said:


> If there is one persons azz I would love to kick it would have to be that Mr. Darcy. I hate that dude!


hate hate where is the HATE button!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Now that dinner is cleaned up...

Jane Austen remains a bit of an enigma. Was she writing soft core porn in the 1790's? Or was she writing social satire in occult form? All of her novels chronicle the difficulty of being a young lady with small fortunes and smaller prospects. And yet, she set tongues wagging about not only Mr. Darcy but Mr. Ferrars in Sense and Sensibility, Edmund in Mansfield Park and the sigh worthy Mr. Knightly in Emma...well Emma is not a lady of small fortune but the influence of her sickly father means she has no future but that which he deems safe. And let's not forget totally dream worthy and gentleman dom of Captain Wentworth from Persuasion!

I have yet to read a novel that accurately depicts the opposite sex of the author very well. The vast majority of contemporary romantic erotica is utter crap in terms of portraying a realistic man...even in simple dialogue.

I have read erotica written by men and it's very easy to tell it's a male writer. I honestly can't think of any novel in which romance is a key theme in which both the male and female are realistic at all.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I just did a quick google search for these...and came up empty. Have you got a link?


Google Books rocks. English translations for most of them are available.

(Sorry I missed this)


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

In my opinion its a huge double standard women get a free pass because their women and learn about their sexuality diffent than men so men should just shut up.

nope not working for me.

because women are turned on by erotica like men are turned on to visual porn they are the same in my book and if one partner is rejecting or with holding from the other and using erotica or porn instead of comunicating and working on making your sex life better with your spouce.

its sad really. that two people who profess to love no other can't comunicate how to make love to eachother. So because of their own insecurities,inhabitions,stubarness,Ignorance,and refusal to grow as a person /husband/wife. instaed they turn to erotica/porn ........yuk


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

I use porn to take care of a physical need, since I'm not turned on by my partner (and there is nothing she can do to fix that, or refuses to address what is under her control). After I reach a point at which I need physical contact, I'd do it with her, and then go back to the squeezing-it-out.

Is porn helping or hurting? It's keeping me from considering other women and thus keeping us together until our child gets older and she plugs back into her career and has a higher income than now, i.e. we could consider splitting up the household--and it would be her call, since I do not want to live with a woman again, and when living alone I'd simply have casual sex 2-3 times a year. On the other hand, it allows a real problem to be ignored.


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