# Trying to Figure It Out



## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I can't believe how long this grew, but everything seemed important to me to set up the story. If anybody likes to read, I'd love to hear input.

My wife of nearly ten years moved out and filed for divorce six weeks ago. We met on a college field trip in 1997 and she asked me out. She was 21, a sorority girl, not really devoted to her studies, and had had several previous relationships (including being previously engaged twice, I think). I was 20, incredibly shy, a nearly 4.0 student, and had never been on a date in my life. We were definitely the odd couple, and all of our mutual friends were amazed at how well matched we ended up being, as we both pulled each other away from our extremes and towards a middle ground. We graduated in 1999, and I went on to graduate school (locally) so that I could hopefully provide a better life for the person I assumed I'd be with forever. We were engaged on Christmas 2000, bought a house in August 2003, and married October 2003. I finished school in December 2002 and took an uninspiring job that promised to eventually pay well. She has always worked in animal-related fields, though that's not what she studied in school when we met. She's never made a lot of money, but that was never as important to her as being happy and fulfilled by her job. Over the years she moved from job to job (within her field) seeking more and more happiness, and eventually 
started her own business, but didn't have enough clients to make much money. Meanwhile, my job started paying more and more, and to accommodate her lower income, I worked more and more overtime to pay our bills. For no good reason other than that we didn't have a compelling reason to do so, when we got married we never merged our finances. The only part of our finances that was common to us both was that I made her an authorized user on my credit card, which she used for all of our groceries and household expenses and for whatever personal expenses of hers she couldn't afford to cover. I paid that bill every month, on top of the mortgage, property taxes, insurance -- all the big stuff. She paid the gas and electric bills and whatever living expenses she didn't put on my card. Once a year or so, I would ask her if she was staying on top of her personal expenses, because she had told me that she had been in consumer credit counseling in college before we met. Commonly, I would find out that the balance on her credit card had grown to a few thousand dollars, and on several occasions I paid it off for her so that she would be payment-free. I also paid off the last couple thousand on her car so that she wouldn't be burdened by it. The last time that happened was in 2009, when I paid about $3,000 to pay off her credit card. Since then, she always insisted that she didn't have any debt. Until very recently, anyway. But I'll save that for later.

In late 2009 or early 2010 she informed me that she was seeing a counselor for depression and asked me to go with her. This scared me, because she had not previously given me any indications that she was unhappy or depressed about anything. I wasn't ready for counseling, and she didn't press me on it because we had a long talk and I agreed to be much more attentive to her and to work less (which seemed contradictory to me, because it was my work that was funding both of our lives, and she knew that.....). Anyway, she praised me for being so much better afterwards. We had just gotten a new puppy that she wanted badly, because her older dog was starting to show signs of health problems and she was afraid of losing her and not having another dog to help her through the grief. So things felt very happy to me in 2010 with the new puppy, and into 2011. Also, in June 2010 she started working a new job (an hour away), though not as a regular employee, but as a subcontractor under her own business name. She worked in the office some but also drove all over the place seeing clients in their homes, with no compensation for travel time or expenses. She absolutely loved this job (and still does to this day), but the net income that it provided to the household was virtually non-existant once you factored in all of the gas and other travel-related expenses she was charging on my credit card to make it happen. But she absolutely loves the job, and my job provided just enough monthly income to allow her the freedom to do that, and I was still getting a lot of overtime, which is paid out quarterly. Those overtime checks covered home improvements, vet bills, and allowed me to pay a lot of extra on the house.

So in early 2011 she was the better part of a year into the job she loves, and in April 2011 I paid off the house (a modest one, but paid off in less than 8 years, and a HUGE relief to me, since it meant I could work less overtime). We celebrated. But the very next month we had to euthanize her old dog, who she had received as a puppy the year we graduated college together. That was a sad time. And then a month later my work picked up again and I had to work a ton of overtime. In September 2011 I started experiencing extreme exhaustion -- falling asleep at work, on the couch, even while driving. It was scary. But I thought I was just working too much, so I kept going to bed earlier and earlier, but nothing helped. Meanwhile, she usually didn't get home from work until at least 7:00, and often after 9:00 on nights that she was tending to clients in their homes after they got home from work. So combine that with me going to bed early, and we didn't see a lot of each other during the week. On weekends we'd have dinner out together, and often have a movie night on the couch, which would always start with cuddling, but before the end of the movie I was snoring. She always laughed at me for falling asleep, and she laughed about stories of getting caught snoring at my desk at work. This went on through much of 2012, even though work slowed down a lot around the middle of 2012. But a couple months later it dawned on me that I was still exhausted, irritable when I was awake, no sex drive, etc., even though I wasn't working as much. It was around this time that my wife also mentioned that she thought she heard me stop breathing at night. So I made an appointment with my doctor for right after the holidays, and in January 2013 was diagnosed by my doctor as having probable sleep apnea. A month later I had an overnight sleep study and was diagnosed with the severest form of sleep apnea (anything over 30 "apneas" per hour is considered severe, mine was measured at 103). By the end of February I was being treated for the apnea with a BiPAP machine, was sleeping much better, working much less, eating better, exercising, and losing weight (I had gained 40 pounds during the 16 months that I was untreated). I turned my entire life around, was seeking ways to spend more time with my wife, and we started planning a 10-year anniversary vacation for the fall. Then, in the middle of this "high" of optimism, I was packing on a Friday night for a short weekend trip and I could tell she was upset by something. When I pressed her on it, she admitted that when I returned from the trip the following Monday, she wouldn't be there, because her family and friends were coming to move her in with her parents while I was gone. Needless to say, I cancelled my trip and we stayed up until 2:30 in the morning talking. I can't remember a lot of the conversation because I was an emotional wreck, but the bottom line was that she was claiming that she had been giving me "signs" of unhappiness for a year or more, and that while things were much better this year, it was too late, that she was no longer in love with me, and she said she did not want to go to counseling. She was very emotional too, and she made it clear that counseling was just something she couldn't put herself through emotionally, because she had taken a lot of time to come to this decision and she insisted that both her head and her heart were 100% in agreement on it.

Since she moved out I've discovered things that have my head spinning, and I'm going to counseling every week to try to get through it. She still refuses counseling and when I told her that my attorney advised that we could ask the court to order counseling, she got angry and insisted that she just wants the divorce finalized as soon as possible so she can move on with her life. That's been the number one emotion since she's moved out -- anger. Though she has nothing to be angry about. She is the most stubborn person I've ever met, and she's using the anger to deflect any attempts to reach the guilt that I know she feels about how she pulled the wool over my eyes. In fact, I think she's trying to get me to show anger, because seeing me angry makes it easier for her to justify it to herself. I fell for that a couple of times before I figured out what she was doing. She knows that I've always hated my job, but endured it for 10 years so that she would have the freedom to do whatever she wanted to do, with no worries about what the job paid. She also knows that I hate debt and always asked her to share her debt with me. I now know that not only has she accumulated $13,000 in debt on the credit card I knew about, she has four OTHER credit cards that I didn't know about with who knows what on them (I'm waiting for her to disclose that information now). She also owes $15,000 on her car that she bought without telling me, not long after I paid off her previous car so that she wouldn't have a payment. Under state law, she stands to get half of all the assets, including the house that I paid for in its entirety, and I stand to get half of her debt, even though it's exclusively in her name and she intentionally hid it from me. I know she doesn't feel good about this, because it's the one topic that has made the anger disappear from her face and she's had no angry response to -- just guilt about the aftermath for me. Even though she always likes to profess independence, and that her debt is "not unusual", and that "she's fine", I know she's going to claim poverty when it comes time to divide things and seek to take everything she can from me. I would hope that would weigh heavy on her conscience, but I'm not sure I really understand how she works and what she's capable of being comfortable with.

She claims that she's been showing me "signs" for at least a year, though she won't identify any of these "signs", and she admits that she planned on just leaving while I was gone because she knew I didn't see it coming and didn't want to be there to see the impact. In reality, the last couple of years, DESPITE my lack of sleep and lack of energy to do anything, was full of nothing but positive signs from her. In October 2011 we had a great vacation at our favorite vacation spot. We were shopping for home improvements and in 2012 alone we spent over $15,000 of my overtime on home improvements PLUS nearly $4,000 for a surgery for her dog (which she hugged and kissed me for and promised to "work it off"). Investments in our future, I thought, but she wasn't planning on us having a future? I've got Valentine's and birthday cards from the last couple years with handwritten messages about how she loves me more every year, she appreciates how hard I work for her, etc. Not more than a month before she moved out we were talking about our next home upgrades, and we had sex at her invitation around the same time. After she moved out I brought up the sex on the phone and she said "I like sex. I would have had sex with you every night". Nice. So it didn't mean anything more to her, but she knows that it was much more of an emotional thing for me, and very affirming to me that she was in love with me. She was my first date and my first and only EVERYTHING, afterall, so it always meant something more to me than just a recreational activity.

Another thing I'm thinking back on is our finances. Every once in a while, perhaps once a year, I would have a rather weak quarter of overtime, and I'd look over my credit card bill and try to figure out where we could make some cuts, because our monthly bill the last couple years was $3,150. That's more than I was bringing home every month from my regular pay, so without a good quarter of overtime I would struggle to keep up. I would identify a couple of places where I thought she was spending way more than necessary (shopping at three different grocery stores every week, including the local organic store where everything is triple the price it should be), and her response was, almost without exception, to be offended. The most recent of these occurrences was a couple months before she moved out, when I was in the middle of getting healthy and looking for ways to be able to get by, financially, with working less. I've always believed that she recognized how hard I worked to relieve her of any of those financial burdens, and the fact that she could get angry about asking her to watch her spending is pretty discouraging to me. Has she never respected what I did for her? Does her apparent lack of respect for the value of a dollar when it comes to debt also mean that she doesn't respect the value of the dollars that I've worked so hard to provide? I've purposely NEVER asked her to even consider sacrificing career happiness just to try to get a better-paying job. In fact, the last several years I didn't even KNOW how much she made. I knew it was probably a sore subject for her, and I didn't want her to think that it mattered to me, as long as she was happy. She always did the taxes, and I just signed where she pointed to. If we owed money, she told me how much to write the check for. If we got a refund -- well, I never saw any of the refund checks. So I thought a once-a-year reminder to help me out on the expenses by being more frugal would be viewed as a very reasonable appeal.

Almost without exception, every female friend who I've told the story to has been of the opinion that a wife could not just pretend everything was fine and then file for divorce unless there was somebody else. Admittedly, I had barely even given that a thought in the 16 years we were together. I trusted her implicitly, even though she came home late many nights (she had a plausible reason, seeing clients in their homes 
after normal business hours, then having an hour+ drive back home herself). She's denied it (sympathetically, not angrily) the few times I've asked her about it, but I really wouldn't expect her to admit it. Even though it'd almost be better for me to know, rather than have to wonder about it, I would assume that if there was somebody else her family and friends probably don't know and she wouldn't want that to get out. So I doubt I would ever get the truth out of her for that reason. But the opportunity was certainly there. And the lack of concern for the importance of marriage was apparently there. And she was dishonest about her finances. So what would have stopped her from cheating? Is that why she wants the divorce to happen immediately? So she can stop hiding the other person? For most of the past six weeks I've believed that she was refusing counseling because she felt vulnerable to being broken down and changing her mind about feelings she worked really hard to keep to herself, but maybe it has nothing to do with that and she just wants to be able to introduce "that new guy she just met" to her family sooner rather than later.

If it's not clear, I have a lot of things bouncing around my head. But above all, I have the feeling of not being able to live without her, for all that she did for my own self-esteem and happiness. Starting all the way back in 1997 when she asked me out after having never even been spoken to by a woman before, to the rewarding feeling of having someone to provide for these last ten years, and the happiness that I felt by 
seeing her happy. I'm not ready to give in.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Some specific questions for anyone who made it through the story above:

1. I probably know what the answer will be, but is the general consensus that there must be somebody else, for her to plan an exit like she did, with no warning to me that she was unhappy about anything? If she's afraid to admit it due to how it will make her look to friends and family, is there any way to get her to get past that and feel a benefit to admitting it?

2. Is it common for women to not feel (and value) incredible security in a situation like she had, with me paying all our bills and completely enabling her rewarding-yet-unprofitable career? The way she usually reacted to conversations about cutting her spending here or there leads me to believe that she wasn't too concerned about the work I was doing for her. And her fearless attitude toward debt also suggests a complete lack of concern about financial security -- afterall, that's what credit cards and budget-friendly minimum monthly payments are for. I guess it can be summarized that she's a live-for-today kind of girl, while I had set us up for the future. I thought, together, we had the best of both worlds.

3. She was very emotional the night she broke the news to me. But since then, it's been nothing but anger at the mention of anything about us. I know she feels guilty. I think that might be what took her so long to actually do it -- talking herself into being comfortable with it. In fact, after 16 months of poor health until my sleep apnea was diagnosed and treated, it was after everything got better that she moved out, which I now suspect was her thinking "oh crap" about her decision and rushing to get out before she became any more conflicted. I interpret the anger as a way to deflect attempts to make her think hard about and question her feelings, because she doesn't feel good about it. Is anger a common tactic in her situation? I'm no longer able to contact her about "us" because her attorney has threatened to file contempt charges for harassment. My attorney has seen the e-mails I sent and says there's nothing harassing about them, but if they make her feel emotional distress to think about what I've said then a judge would side with her. So I've had no contact with her in two weeks except for a couple of times when I've had house-related questions. Does the order of no-contact diminish the effect of no-contact on trying to win back somebody's heart?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> I knew it was probably a sore subject for her, and I didn't want her to think that it mattered to me, as long as she was happy.


Were YOU ever happy?

You provided EVERYTHING for your spouse; how could you ever think she would appreciate any of it?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks for reading my novel and for the reply.

I was absolutely happy. At least 95% of the time or more, and even when I was questioning things about her the other few percent of the time I never questioned that I was 100% sure that I wanted to be married to her for the rest of my life.

I provided everything financially. Or, I thought I did -- it still remains to be seen what she felt compelled to run up her credit card debt on. But she provided me enough happiness, companionship, laughter, etc., to make it all worthwhile to me. Despite the financial inequalities, I felt like I was getting the better end of the deal. She needs a career that challenges her, fulfills her, and, as I'm realizing now, probably even plays to her ego a little bit (she speaks at conferences in her niche field, and for a while was teaching at a local community college as an adjunct instructor, which didn't pay much money but I suspect was good for her ego). I discovered soon after I finished school that I didn't need the same level of happiness in my career, as long as it paid well and allowed me to provide for us while she did whatever made her happiest. Seeing her happy with her career made me happy, and made me feel like I was partly responsible for it. I guess I thought that working hard at a job I don't particularly like in order for her to have the freedom to do what she wanted was something to be appreciated for.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> I guess I thought that working hard at a job I don't particularly like in order for her to have the freedom to do what she wanted was something to be appreciated for.


Yeah - that's a very common theme here.

Neglecting the most important person: YOU - in order to make them happy. 

Nice Guy Sydrome.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Blue,

Sounds like that's how you would have wanted someone to treat you.

Too bad she didn't share that perception.

Few do.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

A nice guy, definitely. But I didn't view it as neglecting myself in any way. Everybody derives happiness from different sources. I'm not ambitious in my career beyond using it to make a good living. I sought happiness when I wasn't at work.

Of course, she isn't citing "being a nice guy" as the reason for the divorce. She would claim, above all, that I haven't kicked enough of the shyness that I've always had. It's resulted in me not meeting many of her current group of friends, though, in fairness, I worked a lot in order for her to have the opportunity to MAKE these friends at her current job, and it's hard to pay the bills and be available for social gatherings. Especially when we were already having to work hard to even get time alone, which was what I wanted more than anything when we weren't both working. That would be her biggest legitimate complaint, though it was exacerbated between September 2011 and January of this year by my sleep apnea, which had me too exhausted to do anything. This year I had kicked that and was working on the diet, exercise, good sleep, weight loss, working less, asking her to spend less -- everything that was equating to me improving my self-image and having more time to meet the friends that I hadn't yet met. But it was too late, according to her.

Incidentally, the 15 pounds I had lost in a couple of months earlier this year seems pretty insignificant to the 35 I've lost in the 6 weeks since she moved out. And 32 of those came in the first month. 14 in the first 5 days.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Been there. I lost the weight when she left. She lost the weight when she thought she might lose her savings that she's been illegally squandering tax free. What does that say?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Blue,
> 
> Sounds like that's how you would have wanted someone to treat you.
> 
> ...


Is that a universally bad quality for me to have? Did it just leave be prone to being taken advantage of by a particular person who didn't value it, or do MOST women not respect that?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Is that a universally bad quality for me to have? Did it just leave be prone to being taken advantage of by a particular person who didn't value it, or do MOST women not respect that?


If you're running around trying to put a smile on a woman's face, she's unlikely to feel safe.

If she has any doubts about herself, kissing her behind in that fashion puts your value beneath hers.

She responds by losing respect - for you.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> "Being A Nice Guy"


https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Quick Read - Dive into it immediately. 



BlueCalcite said:


> She would claim, above all, that I haven't kicked enough of the shyness that I've always had.


This has nothing to do with why she left you. Scratch it off the list.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> This has nothing to do with why she left you. Scratch it off the list.


As you read and absorb, you'll likely find that nothing she complained about is the real reason she's gone.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If you're running around trying to put a smile on a woman's face, she's unlikely to feel safe.
> 
> If she has any doubts about herself, kissing her behind in that fashion puts your value beneath hers.
> 
> She responds by losing respect - for you.


I have no doubt that is true, now (unfortunately). But I grew up with the belief that the number one responsibility of a man was to provide for his family financially. I knew it wasn't the only thing that was important, but I guess I depended on her to communicate with me if my priorities needed adjusted. From my viewpoint, I saw her charging so much of her life on my credit card and always eager to shop for expensive home improvements. I saw that as affirmation that she placed high importance on my providing for her in that way.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> But I grew up with the belief


Everything you grew up believing is WRONG.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I have no doubt that is true, now (unfortunately). But I grew up with the belief that the number one responsibility of a man was to provide for his family financially. I knew it wasn't the only thing that was important, but I guess I depended on her to communicate with me if my priorities needed adjusted. From my viewpoint, I saw her charging so much of her life on my credit card and always eager to shop for expensive home improvements. I saw that as affirmation that she placed high importance on my providing for her in that way.


Nope

Watch what they do - don't listen to what they say.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Nope
> 
> Watch what they do - don't listen to what they say.


I wept when my wife moved out. She seemed indifferent. It was as if she had no issue with walking away. Then I threatened to take half of her hard earned savings (like I'm legally entitled to). Not because I wanted it, but because I wanted her to play fair with child support. Boom, it became REAL and she was forced to see what she had caused. She was forced to see an attorney. She lost a ton of weight. I still haven't fully resolved what it says. Was she living in this fantasy that everything would be hunky dory moving out? Did she not realize that divorce is a LEGAL PROCEEDING? Either way, she lost weight. A lot. Very quickly.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf
> 
> Quick Read - Dive into it immediately.


Yeah, I could tell just in the first few pages that many of the characteristics fit me. Not all of them, but the ones that do are pretty alarmingly accurate.

I wouldn't say I completely avoid conflict, but it's a last resort. I rarely raised my voice with her, and when I did it was always the result of what I perceived to be disrespect for my hard work. For example, after about the third time I said something to her about trying to watch her spending here or there, explaining that my monthly take-home was barely covering the bills, and she expressed disapproval of the idea, I said something like...."Well, then I guess I can just take your credit card away and that would solve it." She immediately took offense to this, but I had run out of ideas on how to get through to her that we really, really needed to make very minor spending cuts so I could be just a little bit less stressed about paying the bills.

Another source of conflict on a few occasions was equally as stupid. I have horrible seasonal allergies. When they get bad, I can go several days sneezing virtually non-stop. So shortly after we bought the house we replaced the furnace/A.C. and had what was supposed to be the best allergen filtering system installed. On a couple of occasions I came home from work and found that she had the windows open, which kind of defeated the purpose of the filter. I assumed it slipped her mind the first couple of times, and kindly reminded her to not open the windows during allergy season. Then I started coming home and finding clear evidence that she had HAD them open all day, but closed them right before I got home. The first time I confronted her and told her how I could tell that she had them open, she got mad and reacted like a child who had got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. No apologies, ever. This happened a couple times more (that I noticed) but I stopped talking to her about it and just pondered silently what it meant about whether she cared about me.

When she was giving me a laundry list of reasons she was leaving, she threw that one in there -- I can't live like this, without fresh air anymore.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Why didn't you take the card?

She couldn't use it responsibly.

Respect points. 

Clearly you are on the right path.

Does she still have any access to your money? Cut her off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> I wept when my wife moved out. She seemed indifferent. It was as if she had no issue with walking away. Then I threatened to take half of her hard earned savings (like I'm legally entitled to). Not because I wanted it, but because I wanted her to play fair with child support. Boom, it became REAL and she was forced to see what she had caused. She was forced to see an attorney. She lost a ton of weight. I still haven't fully resolved what it says. Was she living in this fantasy that everything would be hunky dory moving out? Did she not realize that divorce is a LEGAL PROCEEDING? Either way, she lost weight. A lot. Very quickly.


People like her dream all their problems will be solved when they're away from you.

Then they go away and - boom - now all her problems would be solved by coming back.

Black/white thinking


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Why didn't you take the card?
> 
> She couldn't use it responsibly.
> 
> ...


I didn't take it because I didn't want to escalate it that far over, literally, a couple hundred dollars a month. I don't think she would have viewed it as a reason to respect me more, and thought it just might make things worse.

She still has that card, but it's the only funds of mine that she has access to. I asked her about it a week or two after she moved out and she said she hasn't used it. I keep an eye online and she hasn't, and I don't think she will. I think she's happy to just keep running up her cards with the knowledge that she'll eventually be able to pay them all off if the divorce goes through and she gets half of everything.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> I didn't take it because I didn't want to escalate it that far over, literally, a couple hundred dollars a month. I don't think she would have viewed it as a reason to respect me more, and thought it just might make things worse.


And that's what you were afraid of right?

If you would have taken the card away and put your foot down... Guess what would have happened?

Your attraction to her would have sky rocketed.

Like I said... Everything you have learned is WRONG.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Cancel her card.

See a lawyer immediately about your finances. Protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When a woman's man caves into her, she begins to feel unsafe.

Who else will he cave in to?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> Cancel her card.
> 
> See a lawyer immediately about your finances. Protect yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Report it stolen - tonight.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Cancel her card.
> 
> See a lawyer immediately about your finances. Protect yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll go ahead and do that, though I'm sure she wouldn't use it. After all, she proclaims that she is independent and doesn't need me. And for a while, she'll be right, since she stands to be supported by the value of half of my assets for as long as she makes it last.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Are you paying any of her bills?

Send them to mommy's.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> After all, she proclaims that she is independent and doesn't need me.


Make her eat her words.

Remove yourself from her emotionally, physically and financially.

Hard 180.

Don't respond to text, calls or emails.

You have to take counterintuitive measures at this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Are you paying any of her bills?
> 
> Send them to mommy's.


No, I'm not paying anything of hers. And I just removed her from authorized user status on my credit card.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Make her eat her words.
> 
> Remove yourself from her emotionally, physically and financially.
> 
> ...


Well, that doesn't really apply, because she doesn't contact me. She had to have her attorney threaten me with contempt for harassment (through my attorney) after I spent the first few weeks after she moved out and filed for divorce by e-mailing her several times a week giving her the reasons why I think she rushed to judgement (I wish I'd known about the advice here back then, in early June, but I just found this place a few days ago).


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> In late 2009 or early 2010 she informed me that she was seeing a counselor for depression and asked me to go with her. This scared me, because she had not previously given me any indications that she was unhappy or depressed about anything. I wasn't ready for counseling, and she didn't press me on it because we had a long talk and I agreed to be much more attentive to her and to work less (which seemed contradictory to me, because it was my work that was funding both of our lives, and she knew that.....). Anyway, she praised me for being so much better afterwards.
> 
> *Here was your first warning flag. She wanted more of your time, and you seemed to be more concerned about the money. She was reaching out to you here. At some point during this period, did you try and have a discussion with her about cutting expenses so that you COULD spend more time with her? I mean, if she was wanting more time, then she most likely would have been willing to cut back.*
> 
> ...


I am very sorry that she went about this the way she did, I understand that you feel blindsided. You have a lot of admirable qualities, you seem like a good man, and she took full advantage of your giving heart. Take some time and do some nice things for yourself for a change.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Hey Blue,

Sorry you're here.

But you are lucky in that you have some real pro's giving you solid advice here.

Seems to me that your relationship was more parent/child than husband/wife?

I do find it somewhat surprising that a woman who was so dependent on you has walked away. Her attorney must be giving her some good financial encouragement.

But it's not the first time a good guy was screwed over by a greedy woman.

I feel for you. You're about to learn some tough life lessons.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> I think she's happy to just keep running up her cards with the knowledge that she'll eventually be able to pay them all off if the divorce goes through and she gets half of everything.


Ask your attorney about that. Mine told me that the court frowns on that behavior. 

If she's racking up CC debt post-separation, then she should be responsible for paying it all back.

Your STBX isn't the first greedy weiner who thought they could get away with that!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Here was your first warning flag. She wanted more of your time, and you seemed to be more concerned about the money. She was reaching out to you here. At some point during this period, did you try and have a discussion with her about cutting expenses so that you COULD spend more time with her? I mean, if she was wanting more time, then she most likely would have been willing to cut back.


There wasn't a time in our marriage (at least in the last 5-6 years) when I didn't make it known that, without overtime, my base salary barely paid the bills. In fact, I have an IRA that I used to have 10% of my pay automatically diverted to. The last dollar I contributed to that IRA was in April 2009, because our expenses (regular monthly ones + unexpected ones + home improvements she desired) exhausted it all. If she wanted more time, she should have told me so rather than cheering on everything that my income did for us. And she really gave no indication that she held anything against me regarding not going to counseling. That feels like a lifetime ago, and there's been so many great times together since then. But I've clearly demonstrated that I don't really understand women.



3Xnocharm said:


> Ok, here is where she went wrong. Showing a man "signs" that you are not happy is like shouting at a deaf person. BUT...at the same time, she had learned from the past that telling you how she was feeling did not yield results either. She ASKED you to go to counseling with her, that was obviously important to her, so you not going sent her a message. Seriously look back on these last couple of years and really try to see what those signs were. But with that said, she should have been up front with you and said hey look, I am unhappy and I am leaving unless we fix this.


I honestly don't believe she was sending me those signs. I believe she was detaching herself during that time and intentionally WANTED me to not see that anything was wrong, because that might result in things changing for the better and confusing her thoughts. Sort of like how I feel that all the positive things that were happening this year (after a bad year+ with no sleep) actually pushed her out the door. The "signs" from her were overwhelmingly positive. I have a pile of cards where she went out of her way to write very personal, sweet messages to me, and we were always talking about what next to buy for the house. Of course, I could look at it as a cynic now and interpret that as her wanting a nicer house to try to take in the divorce.



3Xnocharm said:


> A woman who is done with her marriage does NOT have to have a man lined up already in order to leave, I know because I have done it. BUT, in her case, I am getting a feeling that she may have indeed started seeing someone. Her "job" that takes her to other people's houses, late hours...seems really convenient, doesnt it??


That's what I'd like to believe -- that she doesn't have to have someone lined up. And she's extremely career-oriented and extremely busy with that career. But she also seems to have had a reason to not try to communicate her dissatisfaction with me. As for her job -- it's completely legit that she goes to clients' houses. Often she's with her (female) boss for the appointments. But certainly there's opportunity there.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Ask your attorney about that. Mine told me that the court frowns on that behavior.
> 
> If she's racking up CC debt post-separation, then she should be responsible for paying it all back.
> 
> Your STBX isn't the first greedy weiner who thought they could get away with that!


I don't mean that she's going out of her way to run up unnecessary debt now -- I know I'm not responsible for that. But what she stands to take in a divorce would pay all of her bills as of the date the complaint was filed.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I understand that you dont feel ready to give in, but you pretty much dont have a choice. She is done. I can tell by the anger and the guilt, again, I have been there, done that. Once I decided I was done, there wasnt a damn thing he could ever do to get me back. I didnt hate, I was just...done. And I am pretty certain that is where she is at.


Can any hope be read into this: when she left, she took a small framed photo of us. It was the first photo ever taken of us together, before we were even dating. It was our favorite photo. When I asked her about it, she said she took it because she wanted the frame.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

It doesn't look good.

Remember you won't be able to nice her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Can any hope be read into this: when she left, she took a small framed photo of us. It was the first photo ever taken of us together, before we were even dating. It was our favorite photo. When I asked her about it, she said she took it because she wanted the frame.


Ouch. That's cold.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Your wife's lack of emotion, or at least the type of emotions you would expect to see from someone with guilt or remorse, is a common internal coping mechanism. To be able to live with her actions she must rationalize her behavior in her mind.

Her subconscious mind downplays or ignores her failings and exaggerates yours. 

Don't hold out hope of this changing anytime soon. If it does, great. Most likely it won't so save yourself months of torment and start accepting now that your wife won't respond logically to this event.

For your own sake, you need to start detaching yourself from her. You may feel like you can't or don't want to but you need to trust us on this point. When you get yourself to a position where you can choose to reconcile (if it becomes an option) or walk away at any point you will regain control of your life.

For peace of mind you should also spend some time looking for evidence of an affair. There are some red flags here and you need to get some answers or this will eat away at you. There are many threads here that advise on how to gather evidence. Read up. Start by analyzing the phone records.

Most of all you need to take care of yourself. See a doctor about the weight loss, lack of appetite and sleep, depression etc. Get yourself a good counselor and deal with the emotional side effects. Get your lawyer to help you protect your assets. Don't let pride stop you from getting help.

Take care
T12


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> For peace of mind you should also spend some time looking for evidence of an affair. There are some red flags here and you need to get some answers or this will eat away at you. There are many threads here that advise on how to gather evidence. Read up. Start by analyzing the phone records.


Yeah, I'm on this, though my options are limited now that she's moved out. I'm supposed to be getting her phone records in the next couple of weeks. And I have a laptop that she used until September 2011 when the display died. The hard drive is still intact, though, so I'll put it through all of the file recovery options to see what turns up.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Your wife's lack of emotion, or at least the type of emotions you would expect to see from someone with guilt or remorse, is a common internal coping mechanism. To be able to live with her actions she must rationalize her behavior in her mind.
> 
> Her subconscious mind downplays or ignores her failings and exaggerates yours.


This is absolutely accurate. My own codependence went looking to rationalize the demise of my relationship and encountered just this. Not a single ounce of input regarding her own failings. In the middle of it, I didn't see it. Looking back I do. The divorce will not solve her problems, but she thinks it will because she thinks the problems are MY problems and severing the snakes head kills the snake. Little does she know...


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> This is absolutely accurate. My own codependence went looking to rationalize the demise of my relationship and encountered just this. Not a single ounce of input regarding her own failings. In the middle of it, I didn't see it. Looking back I do. The divorce will not solve her problems, but she thinks it will because she thinks the problems are MY problems and severing the snakes head kills the snake. Little does she know...


And you'll be just fine without her - she can count on that.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> And you'll be just fine without her - she can count on that.


That's where I'm at a disadvantage. She knows I struggled to trust people before we met, that I always assumed I'd be single for life, but that I took a chance on her and then went all-in on trusting her to be honest with me, not to cheat on me, and not to hurt me. She knows she's eroded the trust that she helped me build.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

You're not a disadvantage. In fact, this will give you the clarity to identify red flags moving forward...even in yourself.

The thing is, it's hard right now. Everybody understands that. There comes a point, however, when you can make choices NOT based on emotion.

Maybe the trust aspect is a codependency issue within yourself? I'm certain IC would help you flush this out. Especially now when you're WILLING to be introspective. Most of all, understand that this was her choice. It sucks when people make a choice FOR you but you can start to see the illusion of what you had isn't what you thought.

It will get better.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> That's where I'm at a disadvantage.


BS!



BlueCalcite said:


> She knows I struggled to trust people before we met.


Want to explain why?



BlueCalcite said:


> She knows she's eroded the trust that she helped me build.


Let's prove her wrong.

Please... Purchase Married Man Sex Primer as soon as you get the chance.

If you want to take the next step.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I do find it somewhat surprising that a woman who was so dependent on you has walked away. Her attorney must be giving her some good financial encouragement.


Yeah, her attorney has definitely coached her into what she's entitled to under law. The week after she moved out I got her to admit that she agrees it's not fair for her to walk away with half of everything I paid for, knowing how hard I worked to set us up for a virtually carefree future. But then she mentioned something about her attorney telling her about "sweat equity". And then she stopped talking because she said she didn't want to say anything that would screw her.

The thing about sweat equity -- aside from cutting the grass (1/3 acre) because I'm allergic to it, she did no more around the house than I did. I did 90% of the cleaning because I cared a lot more about it than her. And in the last 5 years, I can count on my fingers the number of meals she cooked for me. We came home at different times and ate separately, except for on weekends when we would often go out to dinner. And we have no kids, so she wasn't taking care of kids. She certainly did her share around the house, but not a greater share than me, and certainly not a share worthy of offsetting the difference in our financial contributions.

This is probably the case with everybody here, but my wife would have been the first person to ridicule someone else for divorcing their spouse in order to take half of the assets. And then there's her debt that she purposely hid from me because she wanted to feel independent. How independent do you think she'll be when it comes time to negotiate assets and debts?


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)




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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I struggle to keep from thinking about quitting my job, which has no value to me now that I'm not providing for her and us, and finding something I would enjoy to do even if it paid much less. I can't imagine the look on her face at the thought of me making less money and how that would screw up her plans for spousal support.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

You now have control of everything so do what makes you happy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re: Re: Trying to Figure It Out*



BlueCalcite said:


> That's where I'm at a disadvantage. She knows I struggled to trust people before we met, that I always assumed I'd be single for life, but that I took a chance on her and then went all-in on trusting her to be honest with me, not to cheat on me, and not to hurt me. She knows she's eroded the trust that she helped me build.


Stop that. The longer you indulge in self pity the longer it takes to get back on your feet.

You will recover from this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

torn2012 said:


> Stop that. The longer you indulge in self pity the longer it takes to get back on your feet.
> 
> You will recover from this.


Drama Triangle | Lynne Forrest

Stay out of the victim chair.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> BS!


By being at a disadvantage, I was referring to the prospect of her "counting on" me being fine without her.



> And you'll be just fine without her - she can count on that.


Whether I get back on my feet or not, she knows me as someone who views this as a knockout punch, given the extent to which I made her the center of my universe, and having never been through a breakup before. And she knows that I have no desire to ever think about any other woman -- that the vows I took were to her and her alone. I've told her that since she moved out.

With orders not to contact her, I don't even know what opportunity I have to show her that I'm strong, aside from in court, which seems late. Plus, I was already drastically changed this year because of the sleep apnea diagnosis and treatment. I've always been extremely claustrophobic, and I took that on and kicked its ass to learn to sleep with my BiPAP mask. She praised the changes, then moved out anyway, so I'm not sure strength is something she has her eyes open to right now.



> Can any hope be read into this: when she left, she took a small framed photo of us. It was the first photo ever taken of us together, before we were even dating. It was our favorite photo. When I asked her about it, she said she took it because she wanted the frame.
> 
> 
> > Ouch. That's cold.


It seems cold if she really took it just because she wanted the frame. But it would have taken 5 seconds to remove it from the frame and leave the photo, which would have been a colder statement, I think. I can't help but think she has good memories that she's struggling with.


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## Battleworn (Jun 24, 2013)

I read something about this when reading through a 180 checklist of sorts- Don't believe anything they say, and only half of what they do? Maybe less than half. I'm not trying to give you hope by saying this but she won't be telling you the entire truth because she knows what she is doing is wrong. My STBXH told me some stupid lies that I could see right through, but it's either denial or them trying to make themselves feel less guilt. Your mission should be to not even listen to a word she is saying. She is hurting and probably freaked out that she is making a huge mistake, but she obviously doesn't feel that is enough to go back to you. You cannot force her, and nothing you say will reach her. It has taken me months to realize that these TAM pros are actually right and should be listened to from the get go but some things you have to learn on your own. If she wants to come home, she knows where to find you. Just don't contact her. When you don't, she will probably be wondering why you haven't. 

As to your mentioning that she seems like the type to ridicule women divorcing and taking half, I read something a while back about people being in a relationship and always hinting or accusing their spouse/significant other about cheating, when they themselves have either done it or would do it. 

Really, you seem like a really good guy! She's willing to throw it all away with both hands, I think you should just let her fall on her own for now. 

There's a song I like to listen to, to remind me that I am not the type of girl who takes things lying down. It's called Titanium! Give it a listen c:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Battleworn said:


> Just don't contact her. When you don't, she will probably be wondering why you haven't.


Well, I'm not allowed to contact her unless it's an emergency. I contacted her plenty the first few weeks after she moved out, and she had her attorney threaten me with contempt charges for harassment if I didn't stop contacting her. The thing is, my attorney read all of the e-mails that I sent her and said that there was nothing harassing about them, that they were very well-written, from the heart, and logical. But that if reading them pokes at her emotions, then she can claim harassment and a judge would side with her.



> Really, you seem like a really good guy! She's willing to throw it all away with both hands, I think you should just let her fall on her own for now.


A nice guy, actually, which seems to be a poisonous characteristic. As far as letting her fall on her own -- that's what's hard for me to envision, because even though the state law says that assets are to get divided "equitably" (fairly) and not necessarily equally, and that debt is at the discretion of the court to assign to the person who incurred the debt, my attorney is painting a pretty bleak picture for my chance of them actually doing anything other than splitting assets and debts 50/50, regardless of who paid for the assets (me, 98%) or acquired the debt (her, 100%, and without my knowledge). So she stands to walk away with enough to live on for a few years. Makes me regret working as hard as I did to make life easy on her for so long and to make our future together virtually worry-free.......


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## Battleworn (Jun 24, 2013)

Ouch. Harassment by trying to talk some sense into her? Sorry, I missed page 2 I think. Reading from my phone. 

I didn't mean fall, as in financially. I mean the emotional support! But you're right, it will be hard to contact her. Unless she has a heart made of stone, she will be dealing with many regrets, that forced NC being one of them. 

I think what you need is to find something to be happy about. Seems obvious but it really isn't that easy. Maybe you should start by acting on that thought of getting a new job that would make you happier? If, of course, that wouldn't affect the outcome of your divorce. 

Sorry you're in this place. I don't think there is anything wrong with a nice guy, but it seems like you were a little too nice to her. Self respect and confidence are extremely attractive, and when you didn't put your foot down about the financial issues, when you caved to her taking offense, she saw that you were an easy mark. You shouldn't have bad to explain anything to her. If you told her to cut back on spending, it should have been left at that, but she knew you would take care of it anyway so she kept at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Battleworn (Jun 24, 2013)

I would just find something to be happy about sugar. Find something and hold on to it, because it might be the only thing keeping you together some days. I have started making scarves to give to shelters and donation boxes around winter time, even though Texas winters aren't particularly spectacular, but it has been good for me. Therapeutic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

How universal is it that women really want boundaries set? I spoke to my counselor about it and he cautioned me that, though being assertive is a good trait when it's employed without making the other person mad, his impression of my wife (after 6 sessions) is that her worldview is one in which neither rules nor honesty are particularly important. I'm waffling a little bit on whether this falls under the nice guy > loss of respect > loss of love progression.

I've done a lot more thinking about when she asked me to go to counseling in January 2010, and I remember now that her counseling started in late 2009 because of self-inflicted stress. She's extremely career-motivated and is absolutely unable to say "no" to anything that's asked of her. The result is that she's always stressed about the next conference she's speaking at (or organizing), the next meeting of this group or that one, the next exam/certification she has to prepare for -- all on top of her regular job. On top of it, she had a lot of health problems in 2009 that, combined with the stress of over-extending herself with commitments, is what originally put her in counseling and diagnosed with depression. Historically, when she's been stressed like that it's been extremely difficult for me to communicate with her effectively, which made her stressed about our relationship too. That's what prompted her to ask me to join her in counseling. Since then, at least once a year we've had the conversation about her needing to learn to budget her time better (it just dawned on me that budgeting anything is a problem for her -- time and money). She always agreed, but never really got less "busy" because whatever group/organization she distanced herself from was replaced by something new. So she's still always stressed, and I'm wondering if she's blaming our relationship for her stress and failing to recognize that simply being home with me more often has always been the solution for happier times. There have been times in the last few years where I've expressed frustration about her career, which she might have interpreted as lack of support. But it was really just me recognizing the repeating pattern of her having a hand in everything, getting stressed by it, and wondering what she ended up gaining from any of it (and what we lost from it).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Calcite,

No one thinks they "want" boundaries set.

Yet, the way they respond to no boundaries strongly suggests they need them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Calcite, I'm so sorry to read this. I can't understand how people like your STBXW can just drop bombs like this. My H and I have been having trouble for a long time, and he's know how I've felt from the very beginning. I can't understand how a couple is supposed to work through problems if one half doesn't even know they exist.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Calcite, I'm so sorry to read this. I can't understand how people like your STBXW can just drop bombs like this. My H and I have been having trouble for a long time, and he's know how I've felt from the very beginning. I can't understand how a couple is supposed to work through problems if one half doesn't even know they exist.


Thanks. That's pretty much how I feel. Although I'm pretty convinced that she didn't want things to be worked out, and that's why she didn't let me know how she was feeling.

It's feeling more and more like a money-grab because I found an old e-mail from her that suggests she WAS stressed about her finances in 2009, the year that led her to counseling (the debt was just a few thousand at the time). It's now at least $13,000 in credit and $15,000 on her car. I fear that, knowing I disapproved of runaway debt, she felt she couldn't talk to me about it, and it grew, and her financial stress grew on top of the stress from work commitments. It's really sad for me to think about her not feeling she could come to me. She knows I would have been disappointed, but then I would have worked with her to right the ship. But she's so sensitive about admitting wrongdoing. I can't remember if I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but last year she did something that could have given me a severe electrical shock (if not worse), but instead of apologizing about it she was mad and offended that I was mad about her carelessness.

I'd love to have a conversation with her friends and family, because as used as I feel right now, I'd wager a lot of money that they were used just as much as me. She told me one story (of her feelings) to lead me on along the way, and told them exactly what she needed them to know about us to elicit exactly the feelings of support that she was looking for.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Blue, just an observation - you seem really hung up on the financial details of this situation. It's obviously very important to you. But you need to be careful not to obsess over it. It will consume you to the point where your recovery stalls.

I had a hard time dealing with this myself because it just seemed so unfair. The best advice I received on this was from my lawyer. He said straight up "Don't expect fairness. The system isn't built that way." Harsh but true. He had seen many men walk into his office with an idea of justice only to watch them (against his advice) be drawn into a fight with their ex that cost them a small fortune in legal fees and rarely delivered an equitable result.

It's sh!tty but you may just have to accept the fact that the fortune you worked hard to build will take a big hit. It's not fair and I really feel for you but you can save yourself months of torture by coming to terms with it now.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

So up until now I've been levitating myself a little bit above rock bottom with the optimism that I could try to get her to agree to counseling through our attorneys, and if she refused to voluntarily, we could file a motion with the court to order counseling. She refused it voluntarily, so my attorney has been working on the motion and affidavit for the court. But today when I was reviewing it, she told me she really advises against even filing the motion, because from her correspondence with her attorney, she can tell that she really doesn't want it and, since we don't have children, the court is unlikely to make someone as stubborn as her try to reconcile. And the end result in these circumstances is that it just makes them madder and more difficult to work with. All sound legal advice, I'm sure.

So now I have until tomorrow to decide whether I want my attorney to file the motion, on the small chance that counseling would be ordered, and then on the small chance that I could get her to feel something in that counseling. Versus taking the "I won't stand in your way if that's what you want" approach and letting whatever happens happen. I think I know what the right thing to do is, but I'm afraid of falling that last bit and hitting the ground, because I really don't know how far down it is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trying to force someone into counseling is a pointless exercise.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Actually getting them to go may be pointless too if you don't understand their *true* motives


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Trying to force someone into counseling is a pointless exercise.


Agreed. I've told my attorney to abandon that plan.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Blue, just an observation - you seem really hung up on the financial details of this situation. It's obviously very important to you. But you need to be careful not to obsess over it. It will consume you to the point where your recovery stalls.


I care much less about it than the fact that I'm losing her. I'd rather be penniless with her (the "her" I love, anyway) than to walk away with everything but her. It's just hard to think about how sure I was that we were perfect for each other, with her having a career she loves, and always focused on today, and me making good rural middle-class money and looking out for our future. Together we had everything balanced, except for enough time for each other, I guess. But it's mind-boggling that she could hide so much of her unhappiness for so long and actively, intentionally lead me to believe that our marriage was forever.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

I guess that's the mistake that most of us made when our relationships ended. We kept expecting the person we thought we knew to re emerge from this new colder version of our partner.

Sadly, it seems pretty rare around this forum for the detached spouse to reform in the manner the blindsided spouse hopes. Ultimately, we are left to grieve for the loss of the person you loved. Right now you seem to be somewhere between hope for R and the grieving process. 

It's very hard to come to terms with.

The reason why she seems to be less affected by this is because she checked out emotionally long before she left. To make the separation as easy on her as possible she let you believe that everything was ok up until the last minute. This counters all the moves you would've deployed (the same ones you're attempting to now - counseling, etc) had you been aware that this was coming.

She seems very determined to move on without you. For your own sake you need to start doing the same. I'm sorry that this is happening to you buddy.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Sadly, it seems pretty rare around this forum for the detached spouse to reform in the manner the blindsided spouse hopes. Ultimately, we are left to grieve for the loss of the person you loved. Right now you seem to be somewhere between hope for R and the grieving process.


Yeah, I'm definitely stuck in the middle of those, but the hope for R is fading. I'm starting to separate the person I knew for 16 years from the person that exists now, and grieving that other person almost as if she died. I can't get the memories out of my head. We were supposed to celebrate our 10-year anniversary in October in our favorite vacation spot, where we had spent time nearly every other year since we met in 1997. I can't decide if I need to go there on my own and make new memories there by myself (as hard as that would be) or just keep fighting the memories with her.



> The reason why she seems to be less affected by this is because she checked out emotionally long before she left. To make the separation as easy on her as possible she let you believe that everything was ok up until the last minute. This counters all the moves you would've deployed (the same ones you're attempting to now - counseling, etc) had you been aware that this was coming.


I'll never grasp how someone can be so cruel as to feel themselves _starting_ to check out without speaking up about their feelings, especially when they know their spouse is busting their ass at a miserable job to pay the bills. Thinking back on the month or so before she left, she definitely baited me into some really stupid arguments, which I think was her way of formulating the anger that she needed to actually pull the trigger without guilt. It was especially odd timing, since this year was going so well with me being treated for my sleep apnea and feeling better than I'd felt in over a year. I told her that work was slowing down, and I was looking forward to it because we'd get to spend more time together, but that we'd need to budget a little bit better since I'd probably be making close to 20k less than last year. Her response was to be angry that I was evaluating her spending on my credit card. But she seemed open to trying to find ways for herself to get home from work earlier more often. After she moved out, though, she told me that it really pissed her off that I asked her about being home more often.

I did something stupid the night she broke the news to me that I'm sure eased her mind. Somewhere during the 5 hour conversation about her leaving the next day, she started crying about being afraid that I'd try to take the dogs from her. The dogs are her life (she works in an animal-related field), but we adopted one of them at my recommendation and we considered that one "my" dog. Being the dummy I am, I shifted into concerned husband role and started consoling HER, assuring her that I wouldn't try to take the dogs. Well, in the back of my mind I assumed that I'd get to SEE the dogs, so I didn't object to her taking them when she moved out. But now I understand that they're just treated as regular property and the court won't split custody or order visitation, and she has refused to let me see them. So now I need to fight for the dog that I am close with and let her know that walking away isn't without consequences. She's not taking everything that's dear to her and leaving me with nothing that's dear to me.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> The "signs" from her were overwhelmingly positive. I have a pile of cards where she went out of her way to write very personal, sweet messages to me, and we were always talking about what next to buy for the house. Of course, I could look at it as a cynic now and interpret that as her wanting a nicer house to try to take in the divorce.


I have these too. Cards, love notes, sexting, right up until that last fight. Disgusting levels of deception to protect their constructed "reality" to make it easy to leave.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I care much less about it than the fact that I'm losing her. I'd rather be penniless with her (the "her" I love, anyway) than to walk away with everything but her. It's just hard to think about how sure I was that we were perfect for each other, with her having a career she loves, and always focused on today, and me making good rural middle-class money and looking out for our future. Together we had everything balanced, except for enough time for each other, I guess. But it's mind-boggling that she could hide so much of her unhappiness for so long and actively, intentionally lead me to believe that our marriage was forever.


It's interesting how many of us come to this statement of the "her" we love (the one we idealized) versus that actual real "her". You, me, SNM and I'm sure others.

It's a discovery process to realize the her we want isn't in there anymore or at least she's very deeply buried and might not be recoverable. And if she is recoverable, she has to do that work herself; we can't nice, force, beg, etc. the "her" we love to reemerge.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> To make the separation as easy on her as possible she let you believe that everything was ok up until the last minute. This counters all the moves you would've deployed (the same ones you're attempting to now - counseling, etc) had you been aware that this was coming.


This.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> I guess that's the mistake that most of us made when our relationships ended. We kept expecting the person we thought we knew to re emerge from this new colder version of our partner.


Cold is a word I've heard used to describe my stbxw from many friends and also used many time on TAM to describe the WAW (walk away wife).

Cold. that's apt.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> We were supposed to celebrate our 10-year anniversary in October in our favorite vacation spot, where we had spent time nearly every other year since we met in 1997. I can't decide if I need to go there on my own and make new memories there by myself (as hard as that would be) or just keep fighting the memories with her.


That may be too painful. Perhaps give that trip a rest this year and reevaluate later. You may not want to go there again for the painful reasons, but give yourself a break this year to assess.

Start making some new traditions by yourself or with friends. New locations, fresh scenery, no direct line to hard memories and the associated grief.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Cold is a word I've heard used to describe my stbxw from many friends and also used many time on TAM to describe the WAW (walk away wife).
> 
> Cold. that's apt.


Cold to me, but she has a huge circle of friends and family to which I think that side of her is completely hidden. So I don't expect to get any help from anybody that's close to her in making her realize how warped her concept of reality is. In fact, it's something I've been worrying about ever since she left -- knowing how close she is to her family and friends, and how much input she must have gotten from them, makes me fear how her tales to them have been twisted to paint me as the devil.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Cold to me, but she has a huge circle of friends and family to which I think that side of her is completely hidden. So I don't expect to get any help from anybody that's close to her in making her realize how warped her concept of reality is. In fact, it's something I've been worrying about ever since she left -- knowing how close she is to her family and friends, and how much input she must have gotten from them, makes me fear how her tales to them have been twisted to paint me as the devil.


She did. Accept it and move on. You can't control it. It's lies and BS, but it is what it is.

Deal with anything you did poorly in the relationship and fix it. You can't do anything about what she says to her circle to paint you black and paint herself the victim. If you haven't read Conrad's link on the victim/drama triangle, go read it. If you have, read it again. She's playing the victim to her circle and you're the bad guy.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

She moved from Persecuter to Victim and found a nice comfortable spot on that victim end for a bit.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> She moved from Persecuter to Victim and found a nice comfortable spot on that victim end for a bit.


Yep, she'll hang out there for the foreseeable future.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> If you haven't read Conrad's link on the victim/drama triangle, go read it. If you have, read it again. She's playing the victim to her circle and you're the bad guy.





> A SGR’s greatest fear is that they will end up alone. They believe that their total value comes from how much they do for others. It’s difficult for them to see their worth beyond what they have to offer in the way of “stuff” or “service”. SGR’s unconsciously encourage dependency because they believe, “If you need me, you won’t leave me”. They scramble to make themselves indispensable in order to avoid abandonment.


No doubt about it, that pretty much defines me. From when we first met 16 years ago, when she was struggling with school and responsibility in a lot of areas, I was there to help her. And during our marriage, she struggled to be able to provide for herself, so I went out of my way to provide for her and make her feel like she needed me. And when I felt like she wasn't respecting me for it, it made me angry, which sometimes I let her know about and sometimes I just bottled it all up.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

^^ I was dependant and I hated it but it was for ~6 months only
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> But now I understand that they're just treated as regular property and the court won't split custody or order visitation, and she has refused to let me see them. So now I need to fight for the dog that I am close with and let her know that walking away isn't without consequences. She's not taking everything that's dear to her and leaving me with nothing that's dear to me.


You never had children just dogs. Lucky.. 

Let her have all the mutts. Once in awhile she'll look at them and think of you, think of the good things about you. Think about all the money you earned and gave to her. And then she'll curse you because in her mind you thought you could buy her love. And perhaps to some degree that was a mistake that you made.

You should have gotten respect and passion from her in some other way. Hindsight is 20/20.

Women who are obsessed with animals are weird. Read Chuck's thread. He stopped having sex with her because they had 15 dogs that slept on their bed.

Finish the D asap. Give up all idea of getting back together with her. It is never going to happen.

You are not too old to find a new woman. Go to the gym workout super hard to get you body in shape. It will give you self-confidence. Don't be in a hurry to get married.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Women who are obsessed with animals are weird. Read Chuck's thread. He stopped having sex with her because they had 15 dogs that slept on their bed.


An ability to relate to dogs and not to people should be a huge red flag. That is a sign of someone who wants control over a relationship. They want someone who will always be happy to see them, that they can make all the decisions and will never question their decisions. Dogs are fine, but they are a stand-in for a relationship that is all about control.

It's like a primitive intimate relationship. I will clean up your poop and feed you and you will love me no matter what I do. 

Not healthy.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> You never had children just dogs. Lucky..


Children is a topic I've largely ignored, but now that I'm pondering attributing this to some sort of midlife crisis, I'm wondering if it's something she was wrestling with. We've never had a serious conversation about children. We were both always busy, and as career-motivated as she is, it wasn't a given that she would want to have the stay-at-home mother role, even if it was just for a while. But the night she broke the news to me, one of the things I mentioned was how we had just put so much of the hard work behind us by paying off the house a couple years ago, virtually unlimited options for the future if we wanted to do this, or that, or have a baby, or........and she went from sad tears to angry tears, told me to not bring that topic up, and went on to say something very kind to me. Something like, not wanting to risk passing my social anxiety onto a child. Like it's something to breed out of the human race. I dropped the topic. But now I wonder if, at age 37, she was feeling depressed about it, if she had wanted to but didn't think I wanted to, or if she wanted to but didn't think I was "fit" to. I just don't know. Obviously communication was a problem for us since we didn't get enough time together. It was a topic that would have come up by me in 2011 when we paid off the house, if I didn't then almost immediately get swamped with work and start feeling exhausted from the apnea symptoms. And it was a topic that I was going to bring up this year, now that I was feeling good and working less, but I didn't get the chance.



> Let her have all the mutts. Once in awhile she'll look at them and think of you, think of the good things about you. Think about all the money you earned and gave to her. And then she'll curse you because in her mind you thought you could buy her love. And perhaps to some degree that was a mistake that you made.
> 
> You should have gotten respect and passion from her in some other way. Hindsight is 20/20.


It wasn't about thinking I could buy her love. It was about knowing that she needed to do what she needed to do, career-wise, regardless of income, because she's passionate about it, and I wanted her to be able to do that. So I worked a lot to pay our bills, had very little time for any hobbies of my own, and just wanted recognition from her that I was doing it for her, and that if I came up short on time for her other needs, we needed only to budget our expenses better so that I could devote more time to other things. But conversations with her about budgets the last few years never went anywhere, so I just kept working to keep up with the bills, which ultimately ended up with me developing sleep apnea and battling that for 16 months. That's the time during which I know she made her decision to leave. Given her willingness to run up her own credit cards and just make payments on them for the rest of her life, part of me thinks that she was angry with me for insisting on paying off the card every month. Her solution to budget problems isn't to buy less, it's to pay for less now and worry about it later.



> Women who are obsessed with animals are weird. Read Chuck's thread. He stopped having sex with her because they had 15 dogs that slept on their bed.


I don't fault her for caring so much about the dogs. I've learned to care about them a lot too. When we were dating we knew that living together would take some work, because, although we both loved animals, she grew up living WITH the animals while I grew up with OUTSIDE animals. We found a happy solution -- we bought a split-level house, and the dogs and cats were gated on the lower level. So the dogs never slept with us, but one of the things on her laundry list of reasons why she was leaving was because she was jealous of all of her friends who get to live and sleep WITH their dogs and she couldn't live this way anymore. That stings (if it's true), because I've gotten so close to the dogs that if I knew she really felt that strongly about it, I was willing to let the dogs into the rest of the house and even sleep with them. When we first got married, the first thing I did every night after work was to vacuum OUR area of the house, just to get rid of all the dog hair that had been tracked there the previous day. But over the years I got more and more used to dog hair and was barely vacuuming once a week. She noticed this, but it never occurred to her to say...."Hey, I see the dog hair doesn't bother you anymore. Can we just take down the gates?"

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with why she left. That's just one of those things she has in her head to rationalize it to herself. But I still wonder how things might have been different had I taken the initiative to offer to let the dogs into the rest of the house.



> You are not too old to find a new woman.


Too old? No. Too in love with the "her" I knew for so long to feel anything but sick about thinking of anybody else -- definitely.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> We found a happy solution -- we bought a split-level house, and the dogs and cats were gated on the lower level. So the dogs never slept with us, but one of the things on her laundry list of reasons why she was leaving was because *she was jealous of all of her friends who get to live and sleep WITH their dogs and she couldn't live this way anymore. That stings (if it's true), because I've gotten so close to the dogs that if I knew she really felt that strongly about it, I was willing to let the dogs into the rest of the house and even sleep with them.*


You need to work on building relationships with people and forget about your crazy Stbxw.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

angstire said:


> An ability to relate to dogs and not to people should be a huge red flag. That is a sign of someone who wants control over a relationship. They want someone who will always be happy to see them, that they can make all the decisions and will never question their decisions. Dogs are fine, but they are a stand-in for a relationship that is all about control.
> 
> It's like a primitive intimate relationship. I will clean up your poop and feed you and you will love me no matter what I do.
> 
> Not healthy.


:lol: not 15 but 5 dogs

the older two were perfectly ok, 

they came in bedroom after business was completed

well except once :rofl: the older girl dog nudged in and barked 

at my arse in the air.... mood killer but....momentarily

I had no qualms about the three small puppies until.....

1-they had to be with her at every moment

2-brought fleas and tics to the house

then I slept in different locations

it is like the scene from Mr. Wonderful when Matt says

"if you wanna live in $hit that's your business"

this was set in motion in 2009 and by then the de-evolution

was already set in motion. I set my line in the sand, as did she

in the end nobody won

three of the outside dogs were taken to the campgrounds

lots of farms in area...they fit that lifestyle

two were taken, one was not

that @#$%^ traveled 15 miles...and when I came to house

to clean back in March...there the one sat 

I admire the dog and I kept him

I also kept my ex's brother's dog, he will be out next year

I kept Ty as well....he is a throwback to a Grateful Dead hippie

So in all, she collected ten...three were given away, she took four

I kept three....three outside dogs

mind you in the country, they come in handy

one follows me when I mow the yard...tipped me off on a snake

Do I miss the dogs who are gone? Yes I do, especially two

the older 12 y/o female and her only female puppy

those were the two who seemed to know back in November

I was heartbroken....but neither could have made it as 

outside dogs so I set everything up to unfold when ex had them

and I had the other three, her other two male pups and Ty

Taking the ones who could best get along and in Ty's case

transition to being outside...was what I had to do

It was not any of the dog's fault

There are times, I think more of dogs than I do humans

but that's another tale....you are not judged by the situations

you run into but how you handle yourself during them


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BlueC I came in late but try these

if she calls, texts you ignore

set boundary to emails and have a three day grace in opening them

let her believe she is better off, the truth will show

let her sit in the victim chair, pointing fingers

repeating lies so much she starts believing it 

this is a focus on you

yes you made mistakes during the M

who cares who made more....evaluate your pitfalls

improve yourself, regain that hobby you loved

when I realized neither of us were truly happy

I set forth a repolishing of how I used to be

she could have climbed aboard if she chose

but a month apart I realized, it can not work, time has come

we had GREAT times together but they were a distant blur

give the W what she wants

it never turns out as they planned

if I covered anything already touched on, my apawlageez


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> An ability to relate to dogs and not to people should be a huge red flag. That is a sign of someone who wants control over a relationship. They want someone who will always be happy to see them, that they can make all the decisions and will never question their decisions. Dogs are fine, but they are a stand-in for a relationship that is all about control.
> 
> It's like a primitive intimate relationship. I will clean up your poop and feed you and you will love me no matter what I do.
> 
> Not healthy.


I've never thought about that. She works in animal behavior, so spends her days consulting with pet owners to fix problem behaviors (aggression and others). Obviously, an element of that is that she is trying to establish control of their behavior by positively reinforcing (rewarding) good behavior. Did she view her relationship with me like that? I really don't think so. She wasn't always in that particular niche of the veterinary field. She was a veterinary technician for many years and got interested in the behavior part of it when she saw too many cases of people having their dogs euthanized because they weren't having any success fixing problematic behaviors. So she switched to that specialty out of a desire to save pets' lives, not out of a desire to control a relationship.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I got about halfway through His Needs, Her Needs this weekend and, as a result, I had a really difficult weekend thinking about how badly I failed at meeting her needs for affection and conversation. But then I remind myself that those needs weren't met because we didn't have enough time together for them to be met, though I pleaded with her to help me budget our finances so I could work less and be with her more, and I pleaded with her to commit less time to others (various animal-related non-profit groups) so that she could be with me more. In the end, it leaves me confused as to why she doesn't recognize that. (I know -- I'm not supposed to be concerned about why she sees things the way she sees them, but that's easier said than done).


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

She doesn't see it because right now isnt a time to be introspective, it's a time to be in denial. Seeing her own pitfalls means admitting she did something wrong and you can't do that when you convinced your entire army that you're the victim
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> She doesn't see it because right now isnt a time to be introspective, it's a time to be in denial. Seeing her own pitfalls means admitting she did something wrong and you can't do that when you convinced your entire army that you're the victim
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I guess I worded that wrong. I understand why she doesn't see it now -- she doesn't want to see it that way. But I wonder how she failed to recognize it long ago, before she decided to flee.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I wondered this too. A lack of commitment to a marriage that required saying "maybe I don't have all the answers"? I dunno. Maybe it relates back to His Needs Her Needs.

Either way, she didn't care, so resentment built.... which paved the bridge of denial that created her escape.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Sounds like you were trying to build the time into your lives for affection and conversation, by working less. Even if you hadn't read the book, you were working towards what you needed to do.

Bottom line is, and SNM and me can relate, now she's got you painted so black, it doesn't matter what you say, or what you're working on, she can't see it. To admit you can change, to admit you might not be all black is to admit she might be wrong. That she was rash, that she didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, or time to work, or energy. 

Giving you credit for change, openness, anything puts cracks in her narrative of you as the bad guy. And she can't have that or she will have to admit that she might be wrong.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

***Giving you credit for change, openness, anything puts cracks in her narrative of you as the bad guy. And she can't have that or she will have to admit that she might be wrong.****

For God's sake she can't do that!

She was unappreciated by Blue 

She was unloved by Blue

Hmm thank you Mrs. Blue for sharing

here are some nails, a hammer and a cross

nail yourself to it


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Exactly. Denial is a helluva drug....


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I've been thinking about my stbxw's personality. I've always thought of her as being extremely self-confident, and that I was the one who struggled with self-confidence, leading to my hesitance to meet new people. I thought of my wife that way because she's very career-motivated, always volunteering for leadership roles with various non-profit groups (to the detriment of our marriage), loves to speak at conferences (was in Chicago last week to speak), always going for that next certification (she loves letters after her name, to the point of rarely signing her name without including them). I've always looked at this as confidence, but recently I started pondering if it could be exactly the opposite -- low self-esteem manifesting itself in the drive to feel good about herself through admiration of others. For several semesters she taught at a couple of (not exactly local) community colleges, even though the pay and the number of hours she got barely made it worth the gas and time it took to get her there and back. But I think calling herself a "college instructor" was a powerful feeling and was mesmerizing to her. So I wasn't sure which way to lean on the topic until I just stumbled upon the wikipedia page for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which describes one of the determining traits (for NPD versus true confidence) as "cannot handle criticism". That is exactly the phrase I've used to describe her, and to explain why I can't for the life of me remember the last time she's apologized to me for anything, even when she's done something potentially dangerous. She always resorts to getting defensive and then goes on the offensive.

I can't find a single symptom on the list that doesn't fit.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

uh oh


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I thought the same of my wife, although I misconstrued financially responsible with mature and confident. Ironically, she was neither. She was great at saving, yes, but there was such a surplus in my pay that it hid the finances that were being blown (gym memberships, cell charges, etc) and I never even knew she had terrible credit initially. 

The repetitive cosmetic surgery should have been an indication of a low self esteem but I didn't care about that when we met. Hell, I thought this woman is AMAZING there CAN'T be ANYTHING wrong with her!

That said, I sought validation as a child and it carried on into my adulthood. They key is to recognize it and harness that outspoken, not-shy person you are to your benefit while separating the hidden motives you have from the success it can bring you.

I'd lean on NPD for my wife as well. If it came down to her being criticized, she'd simply get quiet and walk away. That's so unfortunate that somebody would bring not only another (me) but a baby into this world only to have us contend with an issue she won't fix until she acknowledges it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

It's not clear to me -- is NPD just the clinical name for being a narcissist, or is there a difference between them?


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Much of this is a guess for me, but trying to connect a few dots:

Causes

The cause of this disorder is unknown, however Groopman and Cooper list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:
An oversensitive temperament at birth (no input here)
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback (my stbxw works in an industry based on illusion (strip club))
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood (no feedback here. She dropped out of HS and became a stripper. Her Mother had little to no control)
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers (no feedback here)
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults (she was a former stripper. enough said?)
Severe emotional abuse in childhood (no input. I wish I had more here. Parents moved her around a lot)
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents (Father was absent for much of the time, didn't get along with Mother)
Learning manipulative behaviors from parents (Father punished behavior unparelled to his own opinions with silence (passive aggressive behavior) and my stbxw did the same to me)
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem (My wife STILL sees a psychic to "talk" to her deceased Father which is a MAJOR sore subject with her that will evoke tears nearly instantly. Seems to have general disdain for her Mother or at least a SEVERE lack of patience/empathy)


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

And is someone with these characteristics immune to the general advice about needing boundaries, and losing respect for me as a Nice Guy, etc? I'm just re-evaluating, now, what would have been a "successful" way of maintaining her love. It almost seems like kissing her butt would be highly desired by someone like her.

We definitely had different viewpoints on the value of pursuing credentials to put after our names. I teased her a couple of times when I saw her sign her name with all of her credentials afterwards. It's obviously fine on professional documents, but I'm talking about, for example, the warranty registration card for a $100 printer or something of similar importance. That probably didn't play well to her need for constant admiration.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I agree with you completely. Here is where is failed for me.

The boundaries would have said "this is unacceptable behavior", which it damn well was. I rode mine out simply because I didn't know how to fix it. Rather than fixing ANYTHING I played into her behavior sensing pain rather than dysfunction. Immediate respect loss. This is your catch 22. What good is respect, when they will fight you on what they believe is "right"? You cannot win in this scenario. 

One of the things mine said when she left was "you never made me feel beautiful". While this is most certainly an absolute negative, it may have some truth to it. My wife "punished" me by silence. I KNEW there was something wrong (in her case much of it was when I lost my job, the $ wasn't there and her foreseeable future involved working) This did not bode well, I presume because she never actually ADMITTED IT. 

So that said, you can understand the psychology of how little I felt the desire to admire her (which I truly did) when she was forcefully keeping her feelings from me.

In the end, mine repeatedly cited "I think WE made a mistake" which absolved her of responsibility for acting like a child. Whether that is a conscious or unconscious choice depends on her actually comprehending that she is severely dysfunctional in her behavior.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

ah, the imperial WE. I love it when politicians speak for The American People. No, wait, I hate that. 

Also when the WAWs speak of we. I also hate that.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Lol I couldn't agree more. Blameshifting brah. They don't look AS bad when it's a joint failure, right?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I never heard a "we" out of her mouth. It was all "you" haven't changed, "you" didn't want to see the signs, "you" haven't done this, "you" haven't done that.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I agree with that, I meant while she was still IN the house planning her EXIT. Once she was gone, she put ZERO effort into proactively discussing ANYTHING that had to do with "we".


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

That makes two of us; I have yet to hear any we, only about me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> I agree with that, I meant while she was still IN the house planning her EXIT. Once she was gone, she put ZERO effort into proactively discussing ANYTHING that had to do with "we".


What did you expect?


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

That the warm person I loved would return.


Wrong.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> That the warm person I loved would return.
> 
> 
> Wrong.


Me too. 

I'm beginning to suspect she didn't exist, except in my mind.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Mine existed at one point. I think she was raised to believe that the man should be the breadwinner and I had no way to win against that considering she met me as a student. I think she fought it for a year and finally left when it was too much to bear. such a tragedy to rip up a family for something that comes and goes like money. While it is important it wasn't like I was sitting on my a**. I hope for the best moving forward and I look forward to meeting somebody who's on the same page as me for longer than one and a half years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

She may have existed during the infatuation period, but the tally keeping and resentment started after that.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Well, I WAS having a good night last night (as good as they can be, anyway) thinking about how narcissism explains EVERY trait I've ever attributed to her and how maybe things never had a chance between us for reasons I couldn't control. Then I had a dream about her (only the second one I've had in two months since she moved out) where she admitted to me that she was having an affair. I woke up this morning feeling horrible because of it. Actually, I've read a lot about how people have difficulty sleeping at night because that's the hardest time for them. For me it's just the opposite. I don't have trouble falling asleep. I think it's the combination of the mask I wear for my sleep apnea and the noise the BiPAP machine makes, and the fact that I rarely went to sleep with her. She always came to bed well after I was asleep. But waking up in the morning -- that's tough, because she would always be there, and now she isn't, and it always feels like the start of another really long, painful day. Weekends are especially bad since I don't have work to distract me.

I had another realization this morning about her potential infidelity, and how far back it might have gone. We met in 1997. She had an online friend that she chatted with, but he lived in Florida, a good 1000 miles away. A couple/few years after we started dating she was driving to Florida to either pick up or drop off her grandmother, who lived there most of the year but came to stay with her family during the summer. She happened to live not far from this online friend, and she admitted to me that she planned to meet him in person. I wasn't comfortable with it, but she assured me I didn't need to be concerned. Well, either the night she was supposed to meet him or the next day, I was talking to her on the phone and she told me that they didn't end up meeting, because when they were making plans on the phone, he said something to her that implied he wanted to do more than just meet, and she got creeped out by it and called it off. I believed her, and only occasionally wondered about it in the days/months that followed, but had long ago forgotten about it. Then when she broke the news to me, part of our 5-hour emotional conversation was about how much trust we had in each other, how loyal I've always been, how I've always trusted her, and I brought up that event from long ago and how proud I was of her. I couldn't remember his name, and she reminded me and went on to say that "Yeah, he's married now and has two kids. We're Facebook friends." I didn't think anything about that, but now I'm trying to figure out if there's ANY good reason for someone to be Facebook friends with a guy who she claims creeped her out 14 years ago? It worries me now that her thirst for admiration could have had her seeking admiration from anybody, in any way, regardless of her marital status. In fact, she admits to not being a fan of rules or expectations to behave a certain way, so what is marriage, really, except a set of rules for how one is supposed to behave?

I think now that the number one need that I didn't fulfill for her was admiration, because I became less supportive over time of all of the commitments she was making to others (for the benefit of her own ego). I supported whatever she wanted to do for her job, but the extra stuff was just getting in the way of time together. I think she found herself, over time, realizing that her number one need -- admiration -- was being fulfilled more and more outside the home rather than in her marriage. I don't think I had a chance of competing with that.

I'm struggling with the desire to blurt this all out to her, everything I think I know, now, about why she behaves the way she does, and what it means for my impression of how unfaithful a person she is. I have urges to reach out to her family. It's probably a fantasy, though, that they would actually evaluate her personality with any more honesty than she would. Though it seems that her parents would HAVE to have witnessed these traits manifest themselves during childhood or early adulthood (if not in more recent interactions). I have to believe that she's always been prone to lying and that they would have caught her before. I just wish I had proof of the affair(s).


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

You can still get proof of the affairs. Phone records, etc.

Don't bother talking to her, presenting your new thinking and expecting an epiphany from her. You're the enemy, she isn't going to have an ah-ha moment because you have sound, reasonable arguments. Maintain the 180. Let her go.

She may see your POV some day and when she does, she may NEVER tell you.

You'll make yourself crazy expecting her to see your POV. I know, I'm in the same boat.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah, I'm supposed to be getting her phone records. But while that could be proof enough in my mind, it's not something that she would ever admit was evidence of an affair, and certainly not something that I could "expose" to friends/family about proof of an affair.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

From poking around online, there's no chance of ever getting transcripts of text messages, since it seems none of the phone providers store them for longer than a few days. But I'll know the names/numbers/frequency that she called/texted to/from for the past year. For what it's worth, she never protected her phone from me. I could have looked at it at any time. But she also knows that, while I'm tech-savvy with computers, I know nothing about phones, have never sent or received a text message in my life (my phone doesn't do texts), and therefore maybe she was just comfortable that I wouldn't snoop out of ignorance of the technology.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Pardon my ignorance -- but are there "apps" through which text messages can be exchanged without registering on the phone records? Or will the phone records contain logs of all communications, regardless of how they occurred?


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Sure, if it's an Android there are apps for yahoo IM, FB, etc. All could be used to send IMs and would not be tracked as anything but MB used by data plan. Same is true for iPhone, Blackberry, etc.

Ask around on the CWI forums if you want help. I don't know much about how to catch a cheater, but be ready for what you find out. 

Somethingnewmaybe didn't catch his ex, but suspected. In the end, he didn't care, because the marriage was over. 

I think some people that have found cheating in their relationships have been really unhappy with reading the texts and seeing the images. And inventing the mental movies that go along with the words.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Pardon my ignorance -- but are there "apps" through which text messages can be exchanged without registering on the phone records? Or will the phone records contain logs of all communications, regardless of how they occurred?


Tons of them.

Do you have any of her passwords? Did she defriend you off facebook?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't think I'd want to read the texts either. But I will be better off knowing with certainty, even if it's only my own standard of proof, than wondering forever about it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Tons of them.
> 
> Do you have any of her passwords? Did she defriend you off facebook?


No, I don't have any passwords, and I think she actually deleted her facebook account (not long after unfriending me).


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Mine had all the indicators. Right after the new year she literally fell off the map when it came to intimacy. She seemed to get home later every night. She was "out with the girls" more often. She had a previous romantic relationship with her boss at work and I found a message on her iPad from him although it was generic but she never use the messaging system on her iPad as far as I knew. The reason that I don't care is the it will all come out in the end there's absolutely no way to hide from that on a long-term scale. Besides, my utter lack of respect couldn't get any lower at this point
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> Mine had all the indicators. Right after the new year she literally fell off the map when it came to intimacy. She seemed to get home later every night. She was "out with the girls" more often.


I noticed nothing different in regards to intimacy, though, with our different schedules, sex wasn't a frequent occurrence for other reasons (6-8 times per year). Cuddling and other forms of intimacy were more frequent, especially on weekends. During the 16 months or so when I was exhausted with sleep apnea (September 2011 to January 2013) we had sex maybe 4 times. But it happened just about a month before she left, at her invitation, and after she left she explained that she had sex with me that night just because she likes sex, not because she was in love with me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

6-8 times per year?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Yep. Busy, mismatched schedules during the week, and she was often busy doing other things on weekends. And a healthy dose of laziness by both of us, I think, by not going out of our way to find time for it more often.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yep. Busy, mismatched schedules during the week, and she was often busy doing other things on weekends. And a healthy dose of laziness by both of us, I think, by not going out of our way to find time for it more often.


I think it's time to admit you just weren't that into each other.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think it's time to admit you just weren't that into each other.


I can't speak for her, but that's not the case with me, and I certainly don't think that's the case with her (at least, not until she reached the point of deciding that I qualified for the ILYBINILWY speech). I am a little different in that sex isn't my number one need. It probably barely cracks the top 5. She would probably rank it a little higher than me, but not high enough to say anything about being dissatisfied, especially given how career-motivated she is, always stressing about the next conference she was speaking at, or the next meeting she was organizing, etc.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I can't speak for her, but that's not the case with me, and I certainly don't think that's the case with her (at least, not until she reached the point of deciding that I qualified for the ILYBINILWY speech). I am a little different in that sex isn't my number one need. It probably barely cracks the top 5. She would probably rank it a little higher than me, but not high enough to say anything about being dissatisfied, especially given how career-motivated she is, always stressing about the next conference she was speaking at, or the next meeting she was organizing, etc.


I thought the same way when I was married to my first wife.

I found out what I thought wasn't my #1 need actually was.

Count your blessings.

She's doing you a favor.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I read somewhere else that cheaters often buy their spouse gifts of a magnitude that's out of the ordinary for them. For Christmas last year, my stbxw spent $1500 on me on some custom-made items that she knew I would love. (Actually, Capital One or Chase funded them, I'm sure, and I'll probably end up buying them for myself when her debt is divided). Typically, she spent very little money on me since she couldn't afford it. But this time she went over the top, and was disappointed that I spent a little less on her, and that I did it in a much less thoughtful way. In early December, she gave me a very sweet birthday card with a handwritten message about loving me more each year, appreciating how hard I worked, etc. When I brought that up with her after she left, she acknowledged that she remembered the card and then said that Christmas was a "tipping point".

I'm not sure what's more likely -- that she was upset by my gift to her after she did something so nice for me, and that it really was a tipping point in her thought process, or that it had nothing to do with my gift to her and her spending all that money on me was a cheater's move.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I spoke to my IC last night about her narcissistic behavior and he agrees that she is classic NPD. It explains how, after she left, any mention I made of all of our good times together was met with "things were never good!". Now that she's gone from viewing me as "white" to "black", all of the good memories are now, in her mind, false memories of what were actually bad times. I can't help but feel more sadness than anger now, because my IC assured me that she isn't able to recognize anything abnormal about her behavior, there was no intentional malice, it's just her worldview that she is to protect herself at all costs because that must be how everybody else operates too. It's probably not good for me to be feeling sorry for her, knowing that she'll use her worldview to try to make me into the bad guy during the divorce and take full advantage of her skill at doing that.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Ugh... I hate people's personality BS. Especially when it costs you your FAMILY.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

It's pretty telling what I'm up against when there are actually books written on the topic of the tactics utilized by narcissists during divorce.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

My stbxw mirrored a lot of what you had posted. I don't think mine intends to get nasty... and she certainly has a lot more to lose than I do right now.

Mine was raised in a superficial environment and works in one too. She's even worse than textbook NPD, she also lacks accountability and now struggles with why, now that she's gone, that the bad feelings didn't just disappear and we can be happy coparents. It's like she doesn't even realize that once she was gone I could see right through the lies.

This really hit home. My wife lacked empathy, couldn't see past instant gratification, put a lot of attention into clothing, hair, etc. Multiple cosmetic surgeries.

http://www.divorcesourceradio.com/narcissistic-personality-disorder-during-divorce/


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> My stbxw mirrored a lot of what you had posted. I don't think mine intends to get nasty... and she certainly has a lot more to lose than I do right now.


Didn't you say that you're not trying to take a lot from her? Could that be why she doesn't feel the need to go into self-protect mode?



> This really hit home. My wife lacked empathy, couldn't see past instant gratification, put a lot of attention into clothing, hair, etc. Multiple cosmetic surgeries.
> 
> Narcissistic Personality Disorder During Divorce



Thanks -- that was a good listen for me.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I'm certain she lawyered up, because her pot bust in 2008 had a recent disposition report pulled just DAYS after I told her she would be paying child support... and there hadn't been activity on that case in 5 years. To understand the dynamic, you have to understand who she is. Uneducated and breaking the law on a regular basis (smoking weed and hiding income). She's likely never thought ahead of the consequences, but she knows what she's doing is illegal either way. An attorney likely convinced her that she needed to protect herself. She flipped out the way that I told her that half of her hidden money could go to me. I even apologized for the way I did it later... but the fact is, it was THE LAW and because she didn't think of that before leaving our house is not my fault.

Even in mediation I watched her lie to my face about her income and wanting to start a business. Likely, she doesn't want a trail of ANYBODY knowing what she does because it could get her into trouble. I even let her out of CS because it meant that I would have to prove what her income really is. What a nightmare....but it IS her responsibility. Like it or not. I should have considered these things when I married her, but I was in love. Weeks ago I found out she was out buying more than pot... she can drive her life into the ground. That's on her as much as leaving this marriage is...but the moment that her own inability to be responsible comes at a cost to our daughter I will step in. I GENUINELY hope that she pulls her life together. She's not a total wreck, she's just in denial...and it's come at a cost to those who loved her the most.

I look back now at the things she's said and I cannot believe I either believed them, or put up with them. She was seriously an assh**** the last year.

She lacked an ounce of empathy when it wasn't serving her anymore. Was it an inability to cope with emotions? Did she perceive a few crappy months as the outcome of her entire marriage? The person who had multiple boob jobs, nose job, tummy tuck, etc had the audacity to tell me that I never made her feel beautiful...and I bought it hook line and sinker. I loved my wife. I thought she was beautiful. I think she didn't.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yep. Busy, mismatched schedules during the week, and she was often busy doing other things on weekends. And a healthy dose of laziness by both of us, I think, by not going out of our way to find time for it more often.


Blue, I read your whole thread. I'd be surprised if your wife didn't find someone else while the two of you were married and had an affair. You strike me as the type of guy that would have a very difficult time sensing a change in your wife and seeing the red flags. I guess it's up to you if you want to try to figure out if she most likely cheated or not. 

My comments will be most beneficial for trying to learn from this fiasco and to do better when you find a new person. But look at what you laid out about your marriage. Wife was often busy doing things on the weekend away from you. You two had crazy schedules where you didn't spend a lot of time together. You only had sex 6 - 8 times a year. She didn't communicate to you clearly that she had issues with the marriage. You couldn't pick up on a clue to save your life (my guess only). 

Sorry if this sounds cruel (I'm not trying to be!), but this marriage was destined to fail due to the lifestyle the two of you engaged in. I couldn't even imagine how this would be if kids were involved. So for next time, you need to find a woman that will work the same schedule as you. Also, you will need to not worry about making the perfect future but living in the present. You need to become more self aware and aware of others around you. You also need to communicate better and insist on good communication from your next lady.

Good luck in your future.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

^ this fits my marriage perfectly. Bummer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Blue, I read your whole thread. I'd be surprised if your wife didn't find someone else while the two of you were married and had an affair. You strike me as the type of guy that would have a very difficult time sensing a change in your wife and seeing the red flags. I guess it's up to you if you want to try to figure out if she most likely cheated or not.
> 
> My comments will be most beneficial for trying to learn from this fiasco and to do better when you find a new person. But look at what you laid out about your marriage. Wife was often busy doing things on the weekend away from you. You two had crazy schedules where you didn't spend a lot of time together. You only had sex 6 - 8 times a year. She didn't communicate to you clearly that she had issues with the marriage. You couldn't pick up on a clue to save your life (my guess only).
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to read through everything. I'd be surprised if there wasn't an affair too. Or multiple affairs, including one of the exit variety. I'd definitely like to have proof for the purpose of making it known to her family to offset whatever nasty things I'm sure she's told them about me.

Now that I'm sure she'd be diagnosed with NPD, I feel bad enough for her and her future to actually have feelings of wanting to help her. I've gotta kick those feelings, but it's hard not to think of her as really vulnerable right now.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Thanks for taking the time to read through everything. I'd be surprised if there wasn't an affair too. Or multiple affairs, including one of the exit variety. I'd definitely like to have proof for the purpose of making it known to her family to offset whatever nasty things I'm sure she's told them about me.
> 
> *Now that I'm sure she'd be diagnosed with NPD, I feel bad enough for her and her future to actually have feelings of wanting to help her. I've gotta kick those feelings, but it's hard not to think of her as really vulnerable right now.*


Blue, think of it this way:

You are helping her by letting her go, and letting her live with the consequences of her actions. You are helping *you*, simultaneously.

She has to fix herself. You fix you.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Blue, think of it this way:
> 
> You are helping her by letting her go, and letting her live with the consequences of her actions. You are helping *you*, simultaneously.
> 
> She has to fix herself. You fix you.


My head knows that. It's the rest of me I have to get there. My copy of Codependent No More should be in my mailbox when I get home.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I spoke to my IC last night about her narcissistic behavior and he agrees that she is classic NPD. It explains how, after she left, any mention I made of all of our good times together was met with "things were never good!". Now that she's gone from viewing me as "white" to "black", all of the good memories are now, in her mind, false memories of what were actually bad times. I can't help but feel more sadness than anger now, because my IC assured me that she isn't able to recognize anything abnormal about her behavior, there was no intentional malice, it's just her worldview that she is to protect herself at all costs because that must be how everybody else operates too. It's probably not good for me to be feeling sorry for her, knowing that she'll use her worldview to try to make me into the bad guy during the divorce and take full advantage of her skill at doing that.


Hi BC, thanks for this post. I still don't know what to label my stbxw with, but this description sounds a lot like her. All has been bad since day 1. My kids, me, etc. She's done nothing wrong, can claim no fault, etc. 

She's very proud of completing her nursing masters, but shares little (no?) credit with those who helped her get here (primarily me). After she did her DUI, no more mention of it and she was very passive aggressive to a friend of mine who had a DUI before she did. Then, when she did, rugsweep away.

I feel sad that this is happening to you, but your post brought some things together in a real way that 3strikes said to me weeks ago. Thanks.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I recently found out that mine had a breakdown in Vegas with the girls that was so bad after I lost my job that it made some of the other girls uncomfortable. She was sobbing about thinking I didn't love her and that she had to pay all the bills (which is funny because I had just paid for her entire pregnancy). Bottom line, we were not suffering financially and I DID still love her.

I think my wife suffered depression after giving birth, had some hormonal changes, or was depressed because of the weight she gained. SHE didn't want to have sex as much after giving birth and told her friends that I wasn't into it. I also think that was a cocaine fueled weekend for them. That nay have contributed. As mentioned, however, she NEVER cried in front of me. I never knew it was that big of a deal. 

In the end, I think my wife put WAY too much focus on social position, which her mother does as well. Financial stability I understand, but my wife left the marriage with far more money than she came into it with. 

I look back at her Mom's relationships. Engineer, successful, but she claimed he was stingy with his money. Current BF, Architect, who was still married when she met him. Worth millions. Could she have been just as happy with someone who made 50k yr? Logic tells me yes, but that doesn't seem to have fit the profile of any suitor while I was married.

STBXW is already pinning haircut styles on Pinterest... divorce wasn't even filed a month ago.

I don't even like looking at her face. She was a liar. A coward. Probably an adulterer. 

She was a complete ass to me the last year who basically said "your needs will not get me unless mine do". This is childish, immature behavior. There is no way in hell I would ever want that back.... but I'm angry... angry over the lies (yes, not talking is living a lie) and angry that I now have to co-parent with this person.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> I recently found out that mine had a breakdown in Vegas with the girls that was so bad after I lost my job that it made some of the other girls uncomfortable. She was sobbing about thinking I didn't love her and that she had to pay all the bills (which is funny because I had just paid for her entire pregnancy). Bottom line, we were not suffering financially and I DID still love her.
> 
> I think my wife suffered depression after giving birth, had some hormonal changes, or was depressed because of the weight she gained. SHE didn't want to have sex as much after giving birth and told her friends that I wasn't into it. I also think that was a cocaine fueled weekend for them. That nay have contributed. As mentioned, however, she NEVER cried in front of me. I never knew it was that big of a deal.
> 
> ...


You should just start your own thread


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Had one. Deleted it. Youre right though, that was a long post. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> Had one. Deleted it. Youre right though, that was a long post. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Noting wrong with a long post if the OP doesn't mind but you get more from your own thread. Why did you delete your thread, by the way?


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Blue, smallsteps and angstire have seen my long winded posts all over the place. Hoepfully they're ok with my rants.

I actually find it easier to follow others on their progress steps than to document my own in a running thread. The learning curve is so steep. By page 3 I felt differently than page 1. That and I'm still involved in a divorce (mediation) but with a good chance she has an attorney on retainer. I don't want to show all of my cards unless I have to but by documenting everything here I leave a good, discoverable, trail. Especially since my stbxw has a very obvious background, job, and history.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't mind. I learn more from other people's posts than mine sometimes. BC's post on NPD backed up what 3Strikes said, but when I was at a different point to accept it. It meant a lot and helped a lot. My thread is good for going back and rereading where I've been versus where I am. My journal is the same. Makes me ill some of the responsibility I shouldered a couple months ago. But, it's all a process. What is relevenant to me, BC, SNM, SS, etc., we are going thru the process. They may be too, but until there is acceptance of blame and there is empathy, their path is lather, rinse, repeat. Not a healing process.

I've left so many breadcrumbs that if my stbxw ventures on TAM, I at totally busted. Oh well. I haven't said anything I wouldn't say to her. Mostly.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Did you see this one? Aside from a few things this is fairly accurate of mine: AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> Did you see this one? Aside from a few things this is fairly accurate of mine: AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline.


That was a good article. Thanks!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> Did you see this one? Aside from a few things this is fairly accurate of mine: AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline.


Thanks for the link. There are a couple big differences between BPD and NPD, but enough similarities to make the article extremely informative.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Ugh. I received all of my stbxw's discovery documents today. 44k in debt spread across 5 credit cards and a car loan, with at least two of the credit cards at 29.99% APR. This, while making plenty of money for herself last year (a little over 30k), paying only about $200 in utility bills each month, and otherwise having free room and board, free gas in her car, etc. Several of them are EACH racking up over $100 in interest and late fees each month. Meanwhile, we have an antenna on our roof because all the bills I was footing left me not wanting to spend the extra $50 a month on cable TV. But several hundred a month in interest and fees doesn't phase her. NPD at its finest (jealousy, entitlement, impulsiveness).


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Ugh, indeed. Sorry bro, just think that you're getting away from this. It may feel like a weight now, but you're starting the process of getting out from under it.

Strength and honor.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Ugh. I received all of my stbxw's discovery documents today. 44k in debt spread across 5 credit cards and a car loan, with at least two of the credit cards at 29.99% APR. This, while making plenty of money for herself last year (a little over 30k), paying only about $200 in utility bills each month, and otherwise having free room and board, free gas in her car, etc. Several of them are EACH racking up over $100 in interest and late fees each month. Meanwhile, we have an antenna on our roof because all the bills I was footing left me not wanting to spend the extra $50 a month on cable TV. But several hundred a month in interest and fees doesn't phase her. NPD at its finest (jealousy, entitlement, impulsiveness).


Make sure you don't pick up the tab for that crap.

Respect yourself.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Make sure you don't pick up the tab for that crap.
> 
> Respect yourself.


That's certainly my goal, but I have to somehow prove that I didn't know about it and/or that the magnitude of it meets the definition of financial misconduct.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> That's certainly my goal, but I have to somehow prove that I didn't know about it and/or that the magnitude of it meets the definition of financial misconduct.


Work on proving it, but also take steps now to stop the bleeding. Separate the finances. Document the credit card debt. Cancel the cards if you can.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Work on proving it, but also take steps now to stop the bleeding. Separate the finances. Document the credit card debt. Cancel the cards if you can.


Finances are separated, and always were with the exception of her being authorized to use my credit card (no longer the case). It's the separation of our finances that allowed her to keep applying for new cards in her own name without me knowing. But even though the cards are exclusively in her name, in my state (and most states, I think) I'm equally responsible for them since the court has to assume that: 1) I knew about it, and 2) That the purchases in some way benefited the marriage. But there is precedent for the court assigning the debt to the person who ran it up when there's evidence of it being done without the spouse's knowledge. My case is largely circumstantial. I can show my history of never having HAD debt in my life other than the house and my car, and the house was paid off in less than 8 years by working 70-80 hour weeks. The car would have been purchased with cash, but the interest rate was less than my mortgage rate at the time, so I put all my money on the house and went ahead and took the full 3 years to pay off the car at 1.9%. That should show me as being highly unlikely to be knowledgeable of runaway debt, else I would have intervened. Plus, I have e-mails I sent her after she moved out in which I brought up the debt (which she "admitted" to being $13,000 when she moved out -- the trickle truth campaign had begun.....), and asking her why she felt she couldn't tell me about it, and how abnormal that amount (13k) was for someone with virtually no living expenses. She responded angrily that her debt was not unusual and that "I don't have trouble paying my bills. I'm fine." So hopefully the court will see that as an admission that she was hiding it from me.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> She responded angrily that her debt was not unusual and that "I don't have trouble paying my bills. I'm fine."


And now that I have her statements for the past year, not having trouble paying her bills means that she's been paying about $200 per month on each of them, which pays the $80 in interest, $39 in late fees, and knocks a grand total of $81 off her balance each month. And then she was spending at least that much on each of them each month, so she was essentially just treading water. Now that she's on her own, I imagine she has to be spending more on them.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Yes, that should help. The other thing you can do is ask her to take the debt or you will force her to.

If you force her to, it will get expensive, but your attorney can demand the credit card statements. When you have those, you can show those purchases were to benefit her. 

Persuade her to just take on the debt, as ramping up attorney involvement will get expensive. 

You could ask Chuck71 for advice too. I know his ex had problems handling money, so he might have some wisdom too.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Yes, that should help. The other thing you can do is ask her to take the debt or you will force her to.


I have a feeling that she wants to use the debt in the negotiation, by volunteering to keep all of the debt in exchange for another $22,000 worth of equity in the house, or from my IRA, or wherever. Which just rewards her for incurring the debt. By all means, go run up another $20,000 on your cards so you have another $10,000 in negotiating power, if you'd like....

I've read articles online suggesting that, even after a divorce, creditors can go after the former spouse if the debt is defaulted on. How the courts split or assigned the debt doesn't factor into the responsibility on default. What I don't know, however, is if that only applies in cases where the credit was in both of our names. Am I off the hook for any future problems? I know she would have used my income on her statement of household income to secure the cards, but the cards don't show up on my credit report, so I'm hoping that I don't even exist as far as the creditors are concerned.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> And now that I have her statements for the past year, not having trouble paying her bills means that she's been paying about $200 per month on each of them, which pays the $80 in interest, $39 in late fees, and knocks a grand total of $81 off her balance each month. And then she was spending at least that much on each of them each month, so she was essentially just treading water. Now that she's on her own, I imagine she has to be spending more on them.


Protect yourself from this.

She's "fine" doing this - let HER continue.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Ugh. I received all of my stbxw's discovery documents today. 44k in debt spread across 5 credit cards and a car loan, with at least two of the credit cards at 29.99% APR. This, while making plenty of money for herself last year (a little over 30k), paying only about $200 in utility bills each month, and otherwise having free room and board, free gas in her car, etc. Several of them are EACH racking up over $100 in interest and late fees each month. Meanwhile, we have an antenna on our roof because all the bills I was footing left me not wanting to spend the extra $50 a month on cable TV. But several hundred a month in interest and fees doesn't phase her. NPD at its finest (jealousy, entitlement, impulsiveness).


Oh my goodness, you must feel so stressed out.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I have a feeling that she wants to use the debt in the negotiation, by volunteering to keep all of the debt in exchange for another $22,000 worth of equity in the house, or from my IRA, or wherever. Which just rewards her for incurring the debt. By all means, go run up another $20,000 on your cards so you have another $10,000 in negotiating power, if you'd like....
> 
> I've read articles online suggesting that, even after a divorce, creditors can go after the former spouse if the debt is defaulted on. How the courts split or assigned the debt doesn't factor into the responsibility on default. What I don't know, however, is if that only applies in cases where the credit was in both of our names. Am I off the hook for any future problems? I know she would have used my income on her statement of household income to secure the cards, but the cards don't show up on my credit report, so I'm hoping that I don't even exist as far as the creditors are concerned.



This is a tough spot for you to be in. Do what you can to protect yourself from whatever stupid decisions she makes for herself.

When you're talking $$$ in the 10000s, your attorney's fees will be worth it. Get him/her to assist with navigating this, so once the D is final, the debt is not your problem. It won't be cheap, but it will help your future a lot.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Blue,

If the cards don't show up on your credit report, you're likely in the clear.

But, I would defer to the attorneys.

Divorce is equal parts art and science.

There's a certain amount you simply "must" give her by law.

If she "thinks" that's to help her with credit cards or whatever, who cares?

Just keep the amount you actually give her as close to the amount you "must" give her as you possibly can.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Her bills are her problem but I have a question. I may have missed this if you had mentioned it but 

1. Is her name on the house?

2. What are you doing with the house in the divorce?

I ask this because if she has any creditors after her or decides to stop paying they can put a lien on the home.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Her bills are her problem but I have a question. I may have missed this if you had mentioned it but
> 
> 1. Is her name on the house?
> 
> ...


Given the direction she's heading, it "could" be best that you force the sale of the house - simply to protect yourself.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Her bills are her problem but I have a question. I may have missed this if you had mentioned it but
> 
> 1. Is her name on the house?
> 
> ...


Yes, we're both on the deed. There has been no decision made about the house, and not really any discussions since the day she had her attorney threaten me with contempt charges if I didn't stop e-mailing her. When she first moved out, she had executed what I now recognize as a pretty effective gaslighting campaign, proclaiming all of these "signs" she had been showing me for a couple of years (but wouldn't identify). I've now learned that these signs didn't exist, but until I got to that point she had me blaming myself and convinced I was a broken person who needed fixed. We spoke early on about the logistics of her living in the house since it has a fenced in back yard for the dogs (a fence she coerced me into buying two years ago, probably just for this purpose.....). Anyway, I assumed she realized that her staying in the house would mean she would have to buy me out of my half, and when I pointed that out in an e-mail, about all the expenses she would have going forward ON TOP OF a small mortgage to buy me out, she was insulted by the suggestion of having to buy me out. That's why I think she has it in her mind that she's just going to take the house (with tens of thousands in improvements over the last few years) in exchange for not touching my IRA, cash, and/or assuming her own debt. But all along the numbers didn't add up in my head, because the sum of my IRA, savings, and my half of her "13k" of debt didn't equal my half of the house. But now that I know what her debt really is, it seems she has equipped herself with more chess pieces to negotiate with if she does, indeed, want to walk away with the house.

You bring up a good point about the potential risk to the home from creditors. I'll have to include that in any conversations with my attorney.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Don't give her too much credit for racking up debt to keep the house. It's unlikely she thought that far ahead. It's more likely she just didn't stop herself from buying things she didn't need.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Don't give her too much credit for racking up debt to keep the house. It's unlikely she thought that far ahead. It's more likely she just didn't stop herself from buying things she didn't need.


I agree. I'm sure she didn't know how that would work. It's just one of those happy accidents.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I agree. I'm sure she didn't know how that would work. It's just one of those happy accidents.


For her.

I appreciate you posting on the gaslighting and feeling broken and accepting everything she said at face value, to start. We're in a similar spot with no kids together with our stbxws and they're playing from the same game book. Your story helps remind me that I'm not a crazy a$$hole, which I believed when this all went down, because that's what she believes and she convinced me of it too. Thanks.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I never even knew what gaslighting was until I came here. But I quickly realized that she employed it throughout our marriage. I didn't recognize it as abuse, though, because I knew she was a liar, and I just chalked it up as a different manifestation of lying. But now it's easy to recognize the difference between most of her lies, which were always to protect herself from the shame/criticism/disappointment that she can't cope with, and the more manipulative gaslighting, designed to try to make me question my own recollection of events (her favorite was to claim that I needed to get my ears checked, because I obviously "didn't hear" so many things she told me). Like I said, much of it didn't have an effect on me through the marriage since I was pretty sure of myself and very sure that she was a liar. But when she left, that one worked on me, and had me stumbling around in confusion for weeks trying to make sense of what couldn't be made sense of.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> But when she left, that one worked on me, and had me stumbling around in confusion for weeks trying to make sense of what couldn't be made sense of.


Truth, bro. I was in the same boat. I was niave, but I didn't think someone I loved so much could do that. I was wrong.

Sucks for us to have gone thru, but getting better now and prepared for those sorts of ladies. Let's steer clear in the future.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yes, we're both on the deed. There has been no decision made about the house, and not really any discussions since the day she had her attorney threaten me with contempt charges if I didn't stop e-mailing her. When she first moved out, she had executed what I now recognize as a pretty effective gaslighting campaign, proclaiming all of these "signs" she had been showing me for a couple of years (but wouldn't identify). I've now learned that these signs didn't exist, but until I got to that point she had me blaming myself and convinced I was a broken person who needed fixed. We spoke early on about the logistics of her living in the house since it has a fenced in back yard for the dogs (a fence she coerced me into buying two years ago, probably just for this purpose.....). Anyway, I assumed she realized that her staying in the house would mean she would have to buy me out of my half, and when I pointed that out in an e-mail, about all the expenses she would have going forward ON TOP OF a small mortgage to buy me out, she was insulted by the suggestion of having to buy me out. That's why I think she has it in her mind that she's just going to take the house (with tens of thousands in improvements over the last few years) in exchange for not touching my IRA, cash, and/or assuming her own debt. But all along the numbers didn't add up in my head, because the sum of my IRA, savings, and my half of her "13k" of debt didn't equal my half of the house. But now that I know what her debt really is, it seems she has equipped herself with more chess pieces to negotiate with if she does, indeed, want to walk away with the house.
> 
> You bring up a good point about the potential risk to the home from creditors. I'll have to include that in any conversations with my attorney.


Glad to see you finally woke up from her gas lighting campaign. I saw something similar play out between friends of ours a few years ago. She had the guy believing he was the worst person on earth who treated her terribly. She was calling all the shots. Finally someone who knew the truth came forward and told him his wife was having an affair. Suddenly the ball was in his court (in my state once adultery is involved the left behind party has the advantage) the house was sold and he called the financial shots.

As for her spending, it's an addiction. I'm by no way defending it but that's what it is and she's not going to get it under control without outside help. That's why I'm saying you need to protect the house. Get her name off the deed, let her buy you out or sell it outright now before she begins to default on her credit cards. Don't put this off.

If she chooses to buy you out, it's not your problem how she does it, just as long as you have a check in your hand at the end. That being said, I doubt she will be able to get a bank to loan her money. It sounds like her credit to income ratio will cause an automatic rejection.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Glad to see you finally woke up from her gas lighting campaign. I saw something similar play out between friends of ours a few years ago. She had the guy believing he was the worst person on earth who treated her terribly. She was calling all the shots. Finally someone who knew the truth came forward and told him his wife was having an affair. Suddenly the ball was in his court (in my state once adultery is involved the left behind party has the advantage) the house was sold and he called the financial shots.
> 
> As for her spending, it's an addiction. I'm by no way defending it but that's what it is and she's not going to get it under control without outside help. That's why I'm saying you need to protect the house. Get her name off the deed, let her buy you out or sell it outright now before she begins to default on her credit cards. Don't put this off.
> 
> If she chooses to buy you out, it's not your problem how she does it, just as long as you have a check in your hand at the end. That being said, I doubt she will be able to get a bank to loan her money. It sounds like her credit to income ratio will cause an automatic rejection.


And, remember... even if you're selling at a loss, that loss is "currently" 50/50.

If you own the house and her creditors come after you for her debts, your losses have no limit.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> As for her spending, it's an addiction. I'm by no way defending it but that's what it is and she's not going to get it under control without outside help. That's why I'm saying you need to protect the house. Get her name off the deed, let her buy you out or sell it outright now before she begins to default on her credit cards. Don't put this off.
> 
> If she chooses to buy you out, it's not your problem how she does it, just as long as you have a check in your hand at the end. That being said, I doubt she will be able to get a bank to loan her money. It sounds like her credit to income ratio will cause an automatic rejection.


Yeah, I'll make it a priority to protect myself against this. I know she wouldn't be able to get a loan, but that doesn't mean her parents wouldn't cosign on a loan since I'm sure they're oblivious to her problems. That's something I really want to do -- make contact with her family and let them know everything about our relationship so that they can hopefully recognize the help that she needs. It'll also serve the purpose of (hopefully) rebuilding my image in their minds, since I know she's said nothing good about me, and I hate the feeling of being hated. I still have to speak to my attorney, and my next IC appointment is tomorrow, and I'm sure their advice is going to be to not tip them off about the personality disorder I recognize in her before the D is final, since doing so would just eliminate any advantage I gained by recognizing it and preparing for potential tactics.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> I never even knew what gaslighting was until I came here. But I quickly realized that she employed it throughout our marriage. I didn't recognize it as abuse, though, because I knew she was a liar, and I just chalked it up as a different manifestation of lying. But now it's easy to recognize the difference between most of her lies, which were always to protect herself from the shame/criticism/disappointment that she can't cope with, and the more manipulative gaslighting, designed to try to make me question my own recollection of events (her favorite was to claim that I needed to get my ears checked, because I obviously "didn't hear" so many things she told me).


My H did this too. Looking back, I think this was actually the cruellest thing he ever did because he made me doubt my own sanity. He would do it at a time when I was severely sleep deprived, too. It's a hard thing to realize that someone who's supposed to love you has been abusing you. Hugs.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yeah, I'll make it a priority to protect myself against this. I know she wouldn't be able to get a loan, but that doesn't mean her parents wouldn't cosign on a loan since I'm sure they're oblivious to her problems. That's something I really want to do -- make contact with her family and let them know everything about our relationship so that they can hopefully recognize the help that she needs. It'll also serve the purpose of (hopefully) rebuilding my image in their minds, since I know she's said nothing good about me, and I hate the feeling of being hated. I still have to speak to my attorney, and my next IC appointment is tomorrow, and I'm sure their advice is going to be to not tip them off about the personality disorder I recognize in her before the D is final, since doing so would just eliminate any advantage I gained by recognizing it and preparing for potential tactics.


Ok, here's the thing, if her parents want to co sign a loan for her,let them. As long as your name is not attached you don't need to concern yourself with it. If she defaults, it's their problem.

I think it's to your advantage not to contact her family. I realize it's hard because you want to get your side across but you need to let that go for now. It's her family and no matter what they will side with her. You will end up getting hurt and probably lose your advantage. 

Two things, first if she does have some sort of personality disorder you can't diagnose it and run to her family. It's not going to work. You learn about it so you can figure out a way to effectively deal with her while you go through this.
Second, stop worrying about what other people think about you. You cannot rely on what people think about you to make yourself feel better. If you are happy with who you are then your good. I'm not saying for you to be an idiot to people but if you are nice,thoughtful,polite and have a positive attitude people will like you. Those who don't, aren't worth being in your life.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> I think it's to your advantage not to contact her family. I realize it's hard because you want to get your side across but you need to let that go for now. It's her family and no matter what they will side with her. You will end up getting hurt and probably lose your advantage.
> 
> Two things, first if she does have some sort of personality disorder you can't diagnose it and run to her family. It's not going to work. You learn about it so you can figure out a way to effectively deal with her while you go through this.


It's not as much about giving them my side of the story as it's about making them aware of the seriousness of her problem and the extent to which she will be battling it and its side-effects for her entire life if someone she trusts doesn't try to help her. I know they've witnessed the symptoms, but like me for the last sixteen years they have no reason to try to tie the symptoms together into the underlying cause. I can make a very compelling case, to include the contents of e-mails and other communications she left behind on an old computer. As much anger as I have for her, I don't want her to crash, at least not without speaking up and giving somebody else the chance to intervene in a way that I no longer can.



> Second, stop worrying about what other people think about you. You cannot rely on what people think about you to make yourself feel better. If you are happy with who you are then your good. I'm not saying for you to be an idiot to people but if you are nice,thoughtful,polite and have a positive attitude people will like you. Those who don't, aren't worth being in your life.


I'm happy with who I am, and I'm not one to be too concerned with what just anybody thinks of me. But I had strong relationships with her family for sixteen years. I never really knew any of my grandparents because three of them died when I was young, and the other grandmother had Alzheimers for many years before she died when I was in college. So her grandparents were like my own, and the only ones I ever had an adult relationship with. I can't keep myself from being bothered by what they think of me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Blue,

Stop fixing.

They are her family, not yours.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

You can't go to her family with your theories. They will never believe you. If she was diagnosed and you had medical proof then that would be a different story. Hold on to the proof you have, in case you need it for yourself. If her family comes to you and asks about what you think then by all means tell them.

You need to let it go. She is not your responsibility. If her family is observant they will handle it. She's already had her lawyer threaten you about contacting her. Your hands are tied, there is nothing you can do.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> You need to let it go. She is not your responsibility. If her family is observant they will handle it. She's already had her lawyer threaten you about contacting her. Your hands are tied, there is nothing you can do.


:iagree:


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

She's not my responsibility, but that doesn't mean I can just let her fall without trying to help any more than I could drive by the scene of an accident without stopping to help. Maybe if she was just intentionally a bad person I wouldn't feel this way. But the more I read about it, the more I think of her as ill rather than malicious. And if I was her mom or sister, I think I would appreciate knowing.

This is a long way down the road, I'm sure, so I'll have plenty of time to consider the pros and cons.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> She's not my responsibility, but that doesn't mean I can just let her fall without trying to help any more than I could drive by the scene of an accident without stopping to help. Maybe if she was just intentionally a bad person I wouldn't feel this way. But the more I read about it, the more I think of her as ill rather than malicious. And if I was her mom or sister, I think I would appreciate knowing.
> 
> This is a long way down the road, I'm sure, so I'll have plenty of time to consider the pros and cons.


That tug you are feeling is codependence.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> She's not my responsibility, but that doesn't mean I can just let her fall without trying to help any more than I could drive by the scene of an accident without stopping to help. Maybe if she was just intentionally a bad person I wouldn't feel this way. But the more I read about it, the more I think of her as ill rather than malicious. And if I was her mom or sister, I think I would appreciate knowing.
> 
> This is a long way down the road, I'm sure, so I'll have plenty of time to consider the pros and cons.


When my stbxh left I wanted some sort of an explanation. It made no sense at the time. It was against his character to act toward his family in such a way. I swore it had to be that he had a stroke, mental break down or a brain tumor. I even went as far as looking up frontal lobe brain tumors and the symptoms of them. Guess what, he didn't have a brain tumor. He didn't have a stroke. Breakdown, who knows, maybe. Point is I wanted so bad to believe something went wrong with him to cause him to behave this way I blamed it on everything that remotely fit.

My cousin is a therapist who obviously was around the two of us our entire marriage. She said he a classic narcissist, plain and simple.

She also says it's very dangerous to self diagnose from just reading unless you know what you're doing because of all the variables that play into a diagnosis. Each case is unique because of the variables.

So you see, if you go to her family there is a real good chance they won't listen. You cannot be responsible any more. Stop the nice guy tendencies.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Obviously I can't claim to be able to diagnose her. All I can do is describe everything that she's ever done to me and to others and point out how all of her interactions with me and others, her career motives, her history of depression, her sensitivity to any suggestion that she's not perfect, etc., all fit the profile of narcissism.

And then there's her complete disregard for others. I don't think I even told this story. She grew up on a farm. I grew up allergic to animals, but always loving them, and always having outdoor animals. She got a puppy not long after we started dating and my ability (or inability) to live with a dog in the house was a big barrier to my comfort with committing to her. She sensed this and promised that the solution was simple -- we could keep the dog gated in just part of the house. So a couple years later we bought a split-level (perfect for our needs) and got married, and the dog was gated on the ground level. Despite this, I went through periods where I was having sneezing attacks that lasted days, and often had to sleep with a wet rag over my eyes and with my mouth wide open to breathe. It was miserable, and I don't know how much money I spent trying different combinations of pills, nose sprays, and eye drops, and still ended up with several eye infections from rubbing them so much. All of this was very apparent to her, and she acted as puzzled as I did. She even recommended that we get the ducts cleaned out, in case there was dust in the vents. Spent a few hundred bucks on that with no relief. Fast forward to the weeks after she left and I find a Skype chat log on an old laptop she left here laughing with a friend of hers about how she lets the dog upstairs when I'm at work and how she always jumps up on the bed and sleeps, and "she always picks his side of the bed, like she knows lol". She then went on to accept sympathy from this friend of hers about how hard it must be for her, as a dog person, to live with me and have to sneak the dog upstairs. Of course, no mention of "Well, actually that's the agreement we came to when I convinced him that we could make the marriage work." Always the victim, never at fault.

So, yeah, the whole "lack of empathy" symptom rings really strong to me.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

smallsteps said:


> When my stbxh left I wanted some sort of an explanation. It made no sense at the time. It was against his character to act toward his family in such a way. I swore it had to be that he had a stroke, mental break down or a brain tumor. I even went as far as looking up frontal lobe brain tumors and the symptoms of them. Guess what, he didn't have a brain tumor. He didn't have a stroke. Breakdown, who knows, maybe. Point is I wanted so bad to believe something went wrong with him to cause him to behave this way I blamed it on everything that remotely fit.


After my H took our not-swimming three year old into a swimming pool with no life jacket on and left her there, alone, so he could go shoot hoops, I did the same thing. I actually got him to see a neurologist, who was alarmed enough to order an MRI and cognitive testing. I was so sure that there _had _to be an explanation for his behavior, especially given that his father has a neuro-degenerative disease. But, no. No tumor, no dementia, not even ADHD. I was stunned. It took me a long time to accept that I wasn't going to get a solid diagnosis. 

It helps to remember what Conrad always says: "Look at his actions. He's shown you who he is." 

In the end, the diagnosis is just a label. Who they are, they are without it. Yes, it'd be nice to get a neat package explaining why they do what they do, but we don't need that to be able to let ourselves off the hook. We're not on the hook! We're not responsible for them. They are who they are, label or not. And we are able to choose how to respond to their behavior. 

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that a diagnosis would be wonderful. Especially if it were something like ADHD that could be controlled with a pill, or even a tumor that would respond to therapy. Not that I've spent time fantasizing about ways medicine could fix my H or anything...


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Not that I've spent time fantasizing about ways medicine could fix my H or anything...


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Obviously I can't claim to be able to diagnose her. All I can do is describe everything that she's ever done to me and to others and point out how all of her interactions with me and others, her career motives, her history of depression, her sensitivity to any suggestion that she's not perfect, etc., all fit the profile of narcissism.
> 
> And then there's her complete disregard for others. I don't think I even told this story. She grew up on a farm. I grew up allergic to animals, but always loving them, and always having outdoor animals. She got a puppy not long after we started dating and my ability (or inability) to live with a dog in the house was a big barrier to my comfort with committing to her. She sensed this and promised that the solution was simple -- we could keep the dog gated in just part of the house. So a couple years later we bought a split-level (perfect for our needs) and got married, and the dog was gated on the ground level. Despite this, I went through periods where I was having sneezing attacks that lasted days, and often had to sleep with a wet rag over my eyes and with my mouth wide open to breathe. It was miserable, and I don't know how much money I spent trying different combinations of pills, nose sprays, and eye drops, and still ended up with several eye infections from rubbing them so much. All of this was very apparent to her, and she acted as puzzled as I did. She even recommended that we get the ducts cleaned out, in case there was dust in the vents. Spent a few hundred bucks on that with no relief. Fast forward to the weeks after she left and I find a Skype chat log on an old laptop she left here laughing with a friend of hers about how she lets the dog upstairs when I'm at work and how she always jumps up on the bed and sleeps, and "she always picks his side of the bed, like she knows lol". She then went on to accept sympathy from this friend of hers about how hard it must be for her, as a dog person, to live with me and have to sneak the dog upstairs. Of course, no mention of "Well, actually that's the agreement we came to when I convinced him that we could make the marriage work." Always the victim, never at fault.
> 
> So, yeah, the whole "lack of empathy" symptom rings really strong to me.


You're worried about a woman who did that to you?

If you look at it just from reading symptoms as a lay person, she falls under being a narcissist. In what you just explained she only cared about her own happiness at the expense of your health.

What I'm getting at is do not go to her family and say anything. Let them deal with her now. You're reading things trying to get an explanation for why she's the way she is. Sometimes there is no answer, we just have to accept it for what it is and start to focus on ourselves.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> You're worried about a woman who did that to you?
> 
> If you look at it just from reading symptoms as a lay person, she falls under being a narcissist. In what you just explained she only cared about her own happiness at the expense of your health.
> 
> What I'm getting at is do not go to her family and say anything. Let them deal with her now. You're reading things trying to get an explanation for why she's the way she is. Sometimes there is no answer, we just have to accept it for what it is and start to focus on ourselves.


It actually doesn't matter.

The issue truly is why Blue lacked the self-love that made him willing to absorb that sort of brutal treatment.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It actually doesn't matter.
> 
> The issue truly is why Blue lacked the self-love that made him willing to absorb that sort of brutal treatment.


He's going to have to get past worrying about what's wrong with her before he can start to figure out what is wrong with him.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> He's going to have to get past worrying about what's wrong with her before he can start to figure out what is wrong with him.


While thumbnail diagnoses are dangerous, it's likely he emotionally "learned" (while he was young) that fixing behavior and acts of selfless service will "earn" him love.

Nothing is further from the truth.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> You're worried about a woman who did that to you?


Worried only in the sense that she's likely not to understand what she's doing, and, once the dust settles, I don't know what I have to lose by relating some of these stories to her parents and siblings so that they have an opportunity to help her.



> The issue truly is why Blue lacked the self-love that made him willing to absorb that sort of brutal treatment.


I didn't know about the dog sleeping in my bed. That was discovered years later, after she left. The other things that I did recognize -- I'm sure it was the feeling that having the companionship, regardless of the occasional disrespect, was better than being alone. Recall that she was my first date, at age 20. I went from absolutely convinced that I would be single forever to caught up in a 16-year whirlwind after she asked me out. Going back to what I remembered single life to be was the worst thing I could imagine.



> He's going to have to get past worrying about what's wrong with her before he can start to figure out what is wrong with him.


I'm in no hurry (though I am in weekly IC). I have no plans to attempt another relationship. Will that change in the future? Maybe. Who knows. But right now I'm of the mindset that, against my instincts, I gave it a try 16 years ago, I went all-in, it ultimately didn't work, and I don't want to go through this again.



> While thumbnail diagnoses are dangerous, it's likely he emotionally "learned" (while he was young) that fixing behavior and acts of selfless service will "earn" him love.


Obviously it didn't earn me real love, given her inability to love others. But it gave me 16 years that were better than the last 2.5 months. And it was putting my foot down that made her leave, since she couldn't cope with the news that there would be virtually no overtime for me this year, and throwing a temper tantrum wasn't going to work on me this time to make me find a way to fund her lifestyle. Add in my request for her to cut back on her ego-seeking travels so we could spend more time together, and I was suddenly a barrier to her needs rather than beneficial to them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I can assure you that once you get yourself squared away, there will be dates/partners who will be into you physically. At that time, you'll gain some interesting perspective on dedicating your life to someone who is willing/able to have sex with you 8 whole times/year.

I am certain of this.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> At that time, you'll gain some interesting perspective on dedicating your life to someone who is willing/able to have sex with you 8 whole times/year.


That was honestly more on me. Indirectly caused by her, but more on me. I was frequently just too tired to think about it, and I've since learned from my readings that my number one need is honesty/openness. When I sensed dishonesty from her (which was fairly often), I was turned off to her for days. She would have had sex much more often. But it ended up taking a span of several days of uninterrupted trust in her for me to feel affectionate and make things head in that direction.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

So her dishonesty was your fault?

Blue, it's good to own our PoS tendencies, as Conrad would say

But, I notice that you still have the desire to "fix" her, and make excuses for her.

*"Worried only in the sense that she's likely not to understand what she's doing, and, once the dust settles, I don't know what I have to lose by relating some of these stories to her parents and siblings so that they have an opportunity to help her."*

It's not your job, or anyone else's job, to fix her. It's all on her.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

I went back and read your first post. In it you say her friends were going to come in while you were gone to move her back to her parents house. What makes you think they will listen to what you have to say about her mental state? They won't and it will just end badly for you. Let it go. It is not your job to fix anything but YOURSELF!!

You sound a lot like me. I thought putting up with being controlled, being embarrassed by his behavior toward others, being constantly put down by him so he could feel better about himself was better than being alone. I figured I'd never find anyone better than him that would deal with me so I'd hang on to him. I'm starting to realize I was wrong. I wasn't respecting myself enough by thinking that way. I'm just hoping that next time around, I do a better job.

Stop making excuses for her. Start to worry about yourself. You've done enough hand holding for her and she walked away. Time for you to focus on making yourself a better person.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If your partner is immature enough to require that sort of hand-holding, they're like not mature enough to be grateful for your efforts on their behalf.

Two sides of the same coin.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> So her dishonesty was your fault?


No, but it was my fault that she didn't know how much it affected me, and how it played into my too-infrequent affection. Though, honestly, it was largely subconscious and I don't think I knew the magnitude to which it affected me.



> It's not your job, or anyone else's job, to fix her. It's all on her.


I realize it's on her to fix herself. But she can't take the steps to fix herself if she doesn't know she needs help. It's not like waking up, feeling an ache somewhere, and going to the doctor to get it checked out.



> I went back and read your first post. In it you say her friends were going to come in while you were gone to move her back to her parents house. What makes you think they will listen to what you have to say about her mental state? They won't and it will just end badly for you.


It was her parents and a few of her friends. Her friends I've never met, so I wouldn't approach them, and they're very recent friends anyway and have seen only the charming side of her. It's her family who I know has seen hints of her real personality (the individual traits, anyway). Her parents, brother, and sister are all very normal and in very equal partnership marriages. I think they would be alarmed by her debt, that she hid everything from me, the way she treated me, the things I can prove that she lied to them about, etc. I wouldn't be looking for them to turn their back on her in favor of me, and it wouldn't be presented to them as such. I'm not looking to re-establish a relationship with them. I would just want them to be made aware so that, even if they dismiss it now, it'll be in the back of their minds as they watch how her life unfolds going forward. I don't know. It seems reasonable to me for a family to care enough about their daughter/sister to want to know about patterns of behavior. But a lot of things have seemed reasonable to me.

How much more badly could it end for me? It would be done in the form of a letter written to them. They can do with the information whatever they want.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If your partner is immature enough to require that sort of hand-holding, they're like not mature enough to be grateful for your efforts on their behalf.


It wouldn't be to make _her_ grateful. Though my hope would be that her family would appreciate the concern.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> It wouldn't be to make _her_ grateful. Though my hope would be that her family would appreciate the concern.


I'm not talking about now.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

It was her parents and a few of her friends. Her friends I've never met, so I wouldn't approach them, and they're very recent friends anyway and have seen only the charming side of her. It's her family who I know has seen hints of her real personality (the individual traits, anyway). Her parents, brother, and sister are all very normal and in very equal partnership marriages. I think they would be alarmed by her debt, that she hid everything from me, the way she treated me, the things I can prove that she lied to them about, etc. I wouldn't be looking for them to turn their back on her in favor of me, and it wouldn't be presented to them as such. I'm not looking to re-establish a relationship with them. I would just want them to be made aware so that, even if they dismiss it now, it'll be in the back of their minds as they watch how her life unfolds going forward. I don't know. It seems reasonable to me for a family to care enough about their daughter/sister to want to know about patterns of behavior. But a lot of things have seemed reasonable to me.

How much more badly could it end for me? It would be done in the form of a letter written to them. They can do with the information whatever they want.[/QUOTE]

Look if it was just about clearing your conscience I'd say whatever. I personally don't think you should do it. I'm sure her family can figure it out for themselves. To them it's not going to look like your concerned for her, she'll paint it as you're being controlling or you think you know everything about her when you don't. It's not your problem any more. 
BUT right now you are going to go through a divorce process that she will not be looking out for your best interest, she'll be looking out for herself. That means you can not reveal these type of thoughts to her. You need to keep what you know and suspect hidden until you know how this will play out.

I know it sounds cold, but bottom line sometimes people get too emotional during times like this, which is perfectly understandable. We can't let emotions get in the way of good judgement. 
I'm am just as emotional as anyone else but as hard as it is I know if I mix that into the "business" end of my marriage I'm going to get scr***d. 

It sounds like you have coddled her your entire marriage. She wants to walk? It's time for her to grow up and take care of herself.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> BUT right now you are going to go through a divorce process that she will not be looking out for your best interest, she'll be looking out for herself. That means you can not reveal these type of thoughts to her. You need to keep what you know and suspect hidden until you know how this will play out.


I think I mentioned somewhere that this would be after the D is over, if I do it at all. A lot of things could change by then. But I know that it wouldn't be wise to tip them off now, since it would likely get back to her and her attorney. I'm just quietly collecting evidence to counter what are likely to be her tactics.



> It sounds like you have coddled her your entire marriage. She wants to walk? It's time for her to grow up and take care of herself.


Guilty. I think part of it was a feeling of being in debt to her for "rescuing" me from a pretty lonely, pathetic existence all those years ago.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I think I mentioned somewhere that this would be after the D is over, if I do it at all. A lot of things could change by then. But I know that it wouldn't be wise to tip them off now, since it would likely get back to her and her attorney. I'm just quietly collecting evidence to counter what are likely to be her tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> Guilty. I think part of it was a feeling of being in debt to her for "rescuing" me from a pretty lonely, pathetic existence all those years ago.


As a rule of thumb, anytime you feel "lucky to have someone" and are willing to do "whatever it takes" to keep them around, it's time for a re-think.

That's classic codependence.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Guilty. I think part of it was a feeling of being in debt to her for "rescuing" me from a pretty lonely, pathetic existence all those years ago.[/QUOTE]

Good now that you see that mistake, work on fixing it. 

You don't need anyone to rescue you from anything.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm going through her credit card statements for the past year. One of them is a card issued by her favorite jewelry store. In the last 12 months, she charged $7266.63 there. 25% of her gross pay going to the jeweler (probably double that when you consider the interest she's paying on it). That much spent in just a year, yet her list of assets claims she has only 6 pieces of "marital" jewelry with a total value of $7,600. So in the previous 8.5 years of marriage she apparently didn't buy anything. This card was issued in 2007, so it should be really telling about how much she spent (and thus how much she's hiding) by demanding to see ALL of those statements. I hope that's something my attorney can request.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I'm going through her credit card statements for the past year. One of them is a card issued by her favorite jewelry store. In the last 12 months, she charged $7266.63 there. 25% of her gross pay going to the jeweler (probably double that when you consider the interest she's paying on it). That much spent in just a year, yet her list of assets claims she has only 6 pieces of "marital" jewelry with a total value of $7,600. So in the previous 8.5 years of marriage she apparently didn't buy anything. This card was issued in 2007, so it should be really telling about how much she spent (and thus how much she's hiding) by demanding to see ALL of those statements. I hope that's something my attorney can request.


Holy $***. That's crazy. Again not your problem about how she's going to pay it back with how much interest but that's an interesting find to help your case. Print it, copy it, save it whatever. Just bring it up to your lawyer.

She has a massive spending problem. If I were you, I'd keep searching to see what else you can find.

Document, document, document!!!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Holy $***. That's crazy. Again not your problem about how she's going to pay it back with how much interest but that's an interesting find to help your case.


I HOPE it's not my problem. But the law says half of it is, unless I can get the court to agree that it's misconduct and that it was done without my knowledge. I hope the huge difference between what she claims to own ($7,600 in jewelry) vs. what I ultimately prove that she spent on jewelry over the 6 years she's had the store credit account will also prove her to be a liar (hiding assets) and will help my case in other areas too.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Is her claim figure already in writing?

If it is and you're finding this information I don't see how the court could ignore it.

My lawyer gave me a detailed form of assets and expenses for him to fill out (when the time comes). She said they can compare figures to see if my stbxh is lying about income and expenses.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Is her claim figure already in writing?
> 
> If it is and you're finding this information I don't see how the court could ignore it.
> 
> My lawyer gave me a detailed form of assets and expenses for him to fill out (when the time comes). She said they can compare figures to see if my stbxh is lying about income and expenses.


Yes, it's part of her signed and notarized response to all of my attorney's "interrogatories".


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yes, it's part of her signed and notarized response to all of my attorney's "interrogatories".


Good, then keep digging. It has to somehow work to your advantage.

As for the jewelry, is it an itemized bill? Does it show descriptions of what was bought? Unfortunately she could always say you approved the spending or some of it was gifts for you. 

The thing is if she lied about something like that, and if they see a pattern of overspending in other areas it might work to your advantage. Even if the court never sees it, you can use it as leverage.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> As for the jewelry, is it an itemized bill? Does it show descriptions of what was bought? Unfortunately she could always say you approved the spending or some of it was gifts for you.


No, the statements just show the total charge amount, not even the number of items purchased. Though I have to think that that information would be able to be subpoenaed from the store.

Trying to suggest I approved the spending will be hard for her, given the evidence I have that I didn't even know about the existence of the cards. And gifts for me? Ha! She knows better than to try that. I own my wedding band and my nearly 20-year-old high school class ring, which I've never worn. Those are the only two pieces of jewelry I've ever owned.

A couple months before she left, during our last argument about the budget, I brought up how much it was costing me in gas for her to work her job and used that to plead with her to help me with watch the spending elsewhere. She responded that she had an "open invitation" from the owner of the jewelry store to work there (which is in our town, so would save several hundred per month in gas). But it would pay her even less than she's making now, and she wouldn't enjoy it as much as the job she works, so that wasn't something I wanted her to entertain. Of course, it was also partly because I knew any money saved on gas would be blown on jewelry bought at "awesome dealer prices". The last thing I wanted was for her to be tempted to spend a lot of money on jewelry.....

It makes me mad now to think about how she let me believe that all the hours I was working was to pay our AND her bills so that she wouldn't have to run up debt for herself. And what I'm left with is permanent heart and lung damage of yet-to-be-assessed magnitude as a result of the sleep apnea that I developed as a result of the weight I gained as a result of sitting at a computer working 70-80 hours per week. All so she could live debt-free. Had I known she was happy incurring debt, I would have let her incur debt paying for her own gas, her own meals, her own half of the groceries, mortgage, etc. But those wouldn't have been fun things to spend money on, and she would have left me long ago had I done that.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Blue,

You will be responsible for half the debt accrued during your marriage. Sorry. Just expect it.

'Reckless spending' would occur if she ran up a bunch of debt post-separation, or possibly immediately before.

Sometimes we learn lessons the hard way


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Blue,
> 
> You will be responsible for half the debt accrued during your marriage. Sorry. Just expect it.
> 
> ...


That sounds like the voice of experience.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

There's actually precedent in my state for the debt to be assigned to the person who incurred it, when it can be shown that the debt was incurred without the spouse's knowledge and for no marital benefit.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

How can you prove it, though?

It's he said/she said. 

Doesn't hurt to try, I suppose....


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

It'd be a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence demonstrating my pattern of never acquiring debt except the house and car, both of which were paid off in no time. I'm nearly 37 years old and drive the second car I've ever owned, and I only bought it after the beater I owned from age 18 to 30 started leaking any time it rained and I got tired of the smell of wet carpet and the sounds of random chiming noises from all of the shorts in the electrical system. Then there are the e-mails I sent her after she moved out, asking her why she didn't feel she could tell me about her debt. Her response wasn't to deny hiding it from me, but to tell me it wasn't my concern and that she's in control of it. And she's already lied on a couple of financial statements to the court, and I'm going to be able to show her lying about a lot more when I find out how much she's spent at that jewelry store in the past 6 years since the account was opened. If she's spent $7,200 just in the past year, what are the odds that she only has $7,600 worth of jewelry, as she claims?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> There's actually precedent in my state for the debt to be assigned to the person who incurred it, when it can be shown that the debt was incurred without the spouse's knowledge and for no marital benefit.


As long as you're doing the legwork and not paying through the nose for a lawyer to do it then give it a shot. It can't hurt and even in the end if you get stuck with 1/2 the debt, at least you know you gave it your best shot fighting it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I'll certainly discuss with my attorney what the extra legal fees would be to fight it compared to what she thinks I can gain from it. With 22k on the line, it's worth an investigation. But 15k of that is her car, which I think is common for the court to stick to the person keeping the car. If that's the case, then maybe the total debt up for grabs is the 29k on credit, which would make it more like 14.5k that I would be fighting.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I'll certainly discuss with my attorney what the extra legal fees would be to fight it compared to what she thinks I can gain from it. With 22k on the line, it's worth an investigation. But 15k of that is her car, which I think is common for the court to stick to the person keeping the car. If that's the case, then maybe the total debt up for grabs is the 29k on credit, which would make it more like 14.5k that I would be fighting.


Yep, you have to make sure you don't end up spending more on lawyer fees than fighting her debt

I know my lawyer told me flat out the more work I do on my own gathering information and stuff like that, the more money I save.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Often in these situations, a simple, "I'm not ok with picking up debts you incurred" will suffice.

She may simply go along with it.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Often in these situations, a simple, "I'm not ok with picking up debts you incurred" will suffice.
> 
> She may simply go along with it.


True, and with the information you have so far she may be "persuaded" into not fighting you on her debt situation.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> True, and with the information you have so far she may be "persuaded" into not fighting you on her debt situation.


There's an added factor here of her defiance.

She's insisting these things are "ok"

Let her own them if it's so "ok"

Give defiant people what they want.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> True, and with the information you have so far she may be "persuaded" into not fighting you on her debt situation.


That would be ideal, but I wonder if her survival instinct and self-preservation would trump any guilt or feeling of responsibility. I don't know if she has it in her to jump on that grenade.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> That would be ideal, but I wonder if her survival instinct and self-preservation would trump any guilt or feeling of responsibility. I don't know if she has it in her to jump on that grenade.


You won't know until you try. I asked for something I didn't expect to get for my mortgage situation and I got it; no questions, no negotiation, just a yes. It was nice.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> That would be ideal, but I wonder if her survival instinct and self-preservation would trump any guilt or feeling of responsibility. I don't know if she has it in her to jump on that grenade.


You're missing the point, it has nothing to do with guilt or feeling responsible. It's about her self defiance taking over to prove something.

Not to mention if you have something to show her, the records you are finding of her overspending in this case, she may have an "uh oh" moment and figure she better not push it. Minds that work at such a rapid speed tend not to think things through. That can work to your advantage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> It's about her self defiance taking over to prove something.


Gotcha. That would be an interesting battle to witness -- her defiance wanting to prove she can handle it vs. her attorney whispering her rights in her ear.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Not to mention if you have something to show her, the records you are finding of her overspending in this case, she may have an "uh oh" moment and figure she better not push it. Minds that work at such a rapid speed tend not to think things through. That can work to your advantage.


I think she might have already had one of those moments (maybe with the help of her attorney). After originally claiming a gross income last year of $2,100 on her affidavit submitted with the divorce complaint, she came clean on her interrogatories and listed the entire $30,000+. The income she originally reported was the basis for her asking (and the court ordering) that I should pay all of the household expenses during the process. I have a feeling when she wrote that affidavit, her attorney didn't know any better. Then when she turned in the tax returns and other documents to him, I imagine he might have had a "WTF?" conversation with her.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I think she might have already had one of those moments (maybe with the help of her attorney). After originally claiming a gross income last year of $2,100 on her affidavit submitted with the divorce complaint, she came clean on her interrogatories and listed the entire $30,000+. The income she originally reported was the basis for her asking (and the court ordering) that I should pay all of the household expenses during the process. I have a feeling when she wrote that affidavit, her attorney didn't know any better. Then when she turned in the tax returns and other documents to him, I imagine he might have had a "WTF?" conversation with her.


Lol, yes it does seem she got a wake up call.

Look at it as a chess game, if you settle your thinking down and make the right moves you have a better chance of winning than the person looking at the board just rushing through the moves without thinking. Know how to play the game.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I shouldn't care about this, but I had a hard time sleeping last night thinking about it. I was looking over printouts of her appointment calendar for the past year, which she had to turn over to me. On June 9, eight days after leaving, she has 4:00 to 10:00 blocked off as "Date Night".

Argh.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I shouldn't care about this, but I had a hard time sleeping last night thinking about it. I was looking over printouts of her appointment calendar for the past year, which she had to turn over to me. On June 9, eight days after leaving, she has 4:00 to 10:00 blocked off as "Date Night".
> 
> Argh.


Sorry, that really stinks. I can see why you had a hard time sleeping.

Use it to help you move on. This should make you not feel so bad about what she is doing. Take care of yourself.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She'll miss your income. It will be sad for her. 

Lift weights, lose weight, get a new woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> She'll miss your income. It will be sad for her.


Living without health insurance will be a rude awakening for her too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Living without health insurance will be a rude awakening for her too.


Not your problem.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Not your problem.


Agreed. Unless the court considers it to be something she's entitled to and makes me provide it for her.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Agreed. Unless the court considers it to be something she's entitled to and makes me provide it for her.


Won't happen. Don't give that one any more thought.

You couldn't give her health insurance if you wanted to, once you're no longer married.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Agreed. Unless the court considers it to be something she's entitled to and makes me provide it for her.


In my state once you're divorced, no more health insurance even if the spouse wants to keep the other on.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm not sure what the law is in my state, but I was referencing the possibility that the lack-of-insurance could be used as part of a determination of spousal support, to help her be able to afford to purchase it on her own.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I'm not sure what the law is in my state, but I was referencing the possibility that the lack-of-insurance could be used as part of a determination of spousal support, to help her be able to afford to purchase it on her own.


This is something you should really ask your lawyer about since the laws vary from state to state. Since she does hold a job and she is capable of working I doubt they will order it. Do a Google or Bing search.

Don't go offering anything though. It's her problem to find insurance, not yours.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I'm not sure what the law is in my state, but I was referencing the possibility that the lack-of-insurance could be used as part of a determination of spousal support, to help her be able to afford to purchase it on her own.


It won't be.

Refresh my memory...

How long have you been married?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Married 10 years this coming October.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Married 10 years this coming October.


Do yourself a favor and check your state laws. In the state I'm in once your married 10 years it's pretty much lifetime alimony unless you can prove adultury or abandonment by the spouse seeking alimony. Not many states are like that but if I were you I'd double check.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Do yourself a favor and check your state laws. In the state I'm in once your married 10 years it's pretty much lifetime alimony unless you can prove adultury or abandonment by the spouse seeking alimony. Not many states are like that but if I were you I'd double check.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm pretty sure there isn't anything like that in my state, but I'll double check. The standard here is that spousal support is generally calculated to last one-third the length of the marriage, but the amount AND length of the support is often reduced in cases like ours, where the lesser-earning spouse will be walking away with a lump sum from whatever share of the fully-paid home she gets. It's supposedly about helping them get on their feet, not about equalizing salaries for the entire duration of the support. She'll walk away on her feet and it'll be up to her to keep her feet under her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Married 10 years this coming October.


Get this done ASAP


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I just noticed that above the table listing her debts she included the following:

"Debt was Incurred by myself, [Name]"

Could it be that she's taking responsibility? (Or, better termed given her personality, is she professing her ability to take care of herself?). I've got an e-mail in to my attorney asking what the statement means, but haven't heard back yet.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I just noticed that above the table listing her debts she included the following:
> 
> "Debt was Incurred by myself, [Name]"
> 
> Could it be that she's taking responsibility? (Or, better termed given her personality, is she professing her ability to take care of herself?). I've got an e-mail in to my attorney asking what the statement means, but haven't heard back yet.


It just might be that. That would be great for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I just noticed that above the table listing her debts she included the following:
> 
> "Debt was Incurred by myself, [Name]"
> 
> Could it be that she's taking responsibility? (Or, better termed given her personality, is she professing her ability to take care of herself?). I've got an e-mail in to my attorney asking what the statement means, but haven't heard back yet.


Run with that... fast.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Maybe she thinks that by extending that olive branch to me, I'll give into more of what she wants from the assets. She's going to find out that I don't have an olive tree.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are going to claim her jewelry as part of your marital assets, right?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

bluecalcite said:


> maybe she thinks that by extending that olive branch to me, i'll give into more of what she wants from the assets. She's going to find out that i don't have an olive tree.


good!!!!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> You are going to claim her jewelry as part of your marital assets, right?


Usually when they assign debt to someone, the assets associated with that debt would go to them as well (car and car payment being the classic example). So she can have any jewelry if she's paying the debt. If, somehow, the debt doesn't all get stuck on her, then, yeah, any jewelry we identify by inspecting the credit card statements will become "marital" and go against her share of the assets.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I woke up this morning to find a very courteous e-mail from my stbxw asking if the bill for the home and auto insurance came to me at the house, if I paid it, and to please mail her the new proof-of-insurance card for her vehicle (the old one expired a week ago). I did pay it, as I was ordered to pay EVERYTHING by the judge when she lied about her income on her financial affidavit (still haven't had an opportunity to set that straight with the court). I think I'll not respond to the e-mail, sit on the insurance card for a few days, and then put it in the mail via the slowest service offered by the USPS.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

She's being nice because she wants the insurance card.

I know with the company I'm with, they allow you to print proof of insurance off their website. If yours does that let her print it herself.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I called to see if there was a way to do that. There isn't, and the girl offered to just send her a copy of the card. I agreed, but now I wish I hadn't since I'm sure she's going to get the card sooner now than if I had done it.

Last week she came to the house one morning after I had left for work. She doesn't know that I have a hidden video camera running all day long. She wasn't in frame, but I heard her come in, pee in a little half-bathroom that I don't even use (and thus no TP in it), walked around the ground floor, then left. She was in and out in exactly two minutes. She said something (to the cats?) but I can't make out what it is. I haven't figured out what she was doing there. But it does give me the idea to start equipping that bathroom with TP and perhaps add a little itching powder just for fun.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

She still has keys to the house? You never changed the locks?

That was the first thing I did. Actually, my daughter thought of it. After he left the house that night she took off for an hour and showed back up with new doorknobs, deadbolts and a lock for the back gate. My brother came later and changed everything.

She probably just stopped in because she was nearby and needed to use the bathroom. Has she done that before?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Her name's on the deed and my understanding is that I can't stop her from coming without a court order.

I haven't known her to do that before (at least, not since the early days after she left, when I know she came a time or two to collect financial documents). There's really no reason for her to have just been in the area. If I had to guess, I would say that she has an interest in knowing how I'm keeping the house, especially as it relates to caring for the three cats she left behind (two indoors; one that lives outside and sleeps in the garage). She might have a fear that I want to get one of the dogs back from her (THE most important things in her life), and she could be looking for evidence to try to suggest to the judge that I can't take care of a dog. We will be filing for a temporary order for her to return the dog that was mine, and when we do she's going to have a classic NPD out-of-control breakdown. She's never known me to stand up to her, and she won't like that feeling.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ok as a dog lover I need to ask are the two dogs attached to each other? If they are maybe you should reconsider because you'll be hurting the dogs in all this. There are a lot of other ways to stand up to her.

Maybe she was snooping around. I wouldn't be too comfortable with that. Make sure everything is locked up somewhere safe if you don't want her to get her hands on it.

I wouldn't put tp in that bathroom either.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Ok as a dog lover I need to ask are the two dogs attached to each other? If they are maybe you should reconsider because you'll be hurting the dogs in all this. There are a lot of other ways to stand up to her.


Yeah, the dogs get along great together, and that's part of the reason why, when she announced she was leaving, I didn't object to her taking them. That, and compared to the grief I was going through at losing her (and all the horrible things she had me convinced I'd done to cause it), I wasn't in a position to worry as much about the dogs. But I also thought I'd get to SEE them. She has refused every attempt to see them, and even offered to let me babysit mine for a week while she was busy at work, and then violently changed her mind when I sent her an e-mail asking how we would be exchanging him. I think she never intended to let me have him that week and was just craving the power she knew she'd get by finding a reason to revoke that promise to me. So now I've come to the conclusion that that's what divorce is -- a whole bunch of relationships being broken up. Me from her. Me from the dogs. Her from the cats. The dogs from the cats (they played with each other and slept curled up together on big dog beds), my nieces from her, her nieces from me. The dogs will wonder what's going on at first, just like the cats are wondering where the dogs and my stbxw disappeared to. Now that I've learned who my stbxw is, and that the idealized her doesn't exist, it's my dog that I miss more.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I miss the dog more as well. He at least shared the bed with me at night.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yeah, the dogs get along great together, and that's part of the reason why, when she announced she was leaving, I didn't object to her taking them. That, and compared to the grief I was going through at losing her (and all the horrible things she had me convinced I'd done to cause it), I wasn't in a position to worry as much about the dogs. But I also thought I'd get to SEE them. She has refused every attempt to see them, and even offered to let me babysit mine for a week while she was busy at work, and then violently changed her mind when I sent her an e-mail asking how we would be exchanging him. I think she never intended to let me have him that week and was just craving the power she knew she'd get by finding a reason to revoke that promise to me. So now I've come to the conclusion that that's what divorce is -- a whole bunch of relationships being broken up. Me from her. Me from the dogs. Her from the cats. The dogs from the cats (they played with each other and slept curled up together on big dog beds), my nieces from her, her nieces from me. The dogs will wonder what's going on at first, just like the cats are wondering where the dogs and my stbxw disappeared to. Now that I've learned who my stbxw is, and that the idealized her doesn't exist, it's my dog that I miss more.


Maybe with the threat of taking the dog away she'll be more cooperative with visitation. I don't know if you can rationalize with her.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

My attorney is driving me nuts. The first status hearing was two days ago (Wednesday morning). I was told long ago when it was first scheduled that I didn't need to attend that, as nothing happens except the attorneys update the court on the status of everything. Leading up to it, I hadn't heard a peep from my attorney for several weeks, despite sending her several e-mails on various topics (wife's debt, other items revealed in her discovery information, etc) and inquiring with her staff several times about getting updated on things. 

The day before the status hearing (Tuesday), I sent her another e-mail just to make sure nothing had changed and that I still didn't need to be at the hearing. I also asked her to inform me if anything regarding getting my dog back or any other temporary orders could be addressed during this hearing (since those topics would be something I would want to be there for), or if those had to be handled at another time. I waited all day Tuesday and didn't hear back from her, so I called her office right before closing and talked to her staff, who just reiterated that I didn't need to be at the hearing, but they didn't know about the issue of the dog.

Wednesday came and went without any word from my attorney about the hearing, but when I got home at night I logged into Facebook and discovered that my stbxw's sister had suddenly unfriended me. The timing seemed unlikely to be a coincidence. So yesterday I e-mailed my attorney again to let her know about that, since it made it seem to me like something might have happened at the hearing to cause my stbxw to immediately call and cry to her sister. At 4:40 (a couple minutes after I closed my e-mail and left work) she replied saying "Yes, somethings happened. Call me before 5 or in the morning. Dog discussed." Well, I got this e-mail about 5:30, so I e-mailed her back basically to say that I wish I'd seen the e-mail sooner, but that I'd call her in the morning, though I probably wouldn't get much sleep thinking about it. She responded to ask for my phone number and that she'd call me now (last night). I sent her my phone number. She didn't call. I called her office first thing this morning, she wasn't in yet, but they left her a note to call me. Now it's 2:00 p.m. on Friday, she hasn't called me back, and she's on vacation next week! Is it unreasonable for me to expect to know what happened at my own hearing within, say, two days of the hearing taking place?

She doesn't seem to be very empathetic. Where have I heard that word before?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> My attorney is driving me nuts. The first status hearing was two days ago (Wednesday morning). I was told long ago when it was first scheduled that I didn't need to attend that, as nothing happens except the attorneys update the court on the status of everything. Leading up to it, I hadn't heard a peep from my attorney for several weeks, despite sending her several e-mails on various topics (wife's debt, other items revealed in her discovery information, etc) and inquiring with her staff several times about getting updated on things.
> 
> The day before the status hearing (Tuesday), I sent her another e-mail just to make sure nothing had changed and that I still didn't need to be at the hearing. I also asked her to inform me if anything regarding getting my dog back or any other temporary orders could be addressed during this hearing (since those topics would be something I would want to be there for), or if those had to be handled at another time. I waited all day Tuesday and didn't hear back from her, so I called her office right before closing and talked to her staff, who just reiterated that I didn't need to be at the hearing, but they didn't know about the issue of the dog.
> 
> ...


How much more is left on your retainer?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> How much more is left on your retainer?


As of August's bill, about $800. With her prep for this hearing, the hearing, and the phone call she just had with me, probably about $12 left now.

I just got off the phone with her. After briefing the judge on the general things, she informed him of the issue with two marital dogs, that my stbxw took them both when she left, that she had sent two cordial letters to stbxw's attorney asking to be able to see the dogs (her attorney acknowledged this), and that stbxw had not responded to either request. She went on to say that she intended to file a motion for temporary orders next week to address it, since stbxw wouldn't work with us. The judge made it known that he didn't want that motion filed, that it was ridiculous that stbxw couldn't recognize how two dogs (an even number) should be properly divided, and that, if necessary, he could order that the dogs be put in the pound so that we could both have equal access for visitation! :rofl:

My attorney noted that the judge was rather light-hearted about it, but still made his point loud and clear that it's in stbxw's best interest to work with me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> As of August's bill, about $800. With her prep for this hearing, the hearing, and the phone call she just had with me, probably about $12 left now.
> 
> I just got off the phone with her. After briefing the judge on the general things, she informed him of the issue with two marital dogs, that my stbxw took them both when she left, that she had sent two cordial letters to stbxw's attorney asking to be able to see the dogs (her attorney acknowledged this), and that stbxw had not responded to either request. She went on to say that she intended to file a motion for temporary orders next week to address it, since stbxw wouldn't work with us. The judge made it known that he didn't want that motion filed, that it was ridiculous that stbxw couldn't recognize how two dogs (an even number) should be properly divided, and that, if necessary, he could order that the dogs be put in the pound so that we could both have equal access for visitation! :rofl:
> 
> My attorney noted that the judge was rather light-hearted about it, but still made his point loud and clear that it's in stbxw's best interest to work with me.


This all sounds very positive.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Letter to her attorney asking for either both dogs every weekend, or my dog full-time is going out on Monday. Of course, this is just for the duration of the D process, which now has pre-trial and final hearings scheduled for February and March, respectively. I know stbxw is in a panic now based on whatever report she got from her attorney, and it'll be even worse for her when she finds out that the "visitation" I've asked for for months (with no response) has now been upgraded to, essentially, shared custody. I'm 80% happy with myself for finally standing up to her, and for the happiness that having time with the dog(s) will bring. (The house is way too quiet.....). But 20% of me hates myself for doing something to hurt the person I spent 16 years trying to protect.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Letter to her attorney asking for either both dogs every weekend, or my dog full-time is going out on Monday. Of course, this is just for the duration of the D process, which now has pre-trial and final hearings scheduled for February and March, respectively. I know stbxw is in a panic now based on whatever report she got from her attorney, and it'll be even worse for her when she finds out that the "visitation" I've asked for for months (with no response) has now been upgraded to, essentially, shared custody. I'm 80% happy with myself for finally standing up to her, and for the happiness that having time with the dog(s) will bring. (The house is way too quiet.....). But 20% of me hates myself for doing something to hurt the person I spent 16 years trying to protect.


It's not you job to protect her anymore, remember? Why shouldn't you get time with your dog's too?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> It's not you job to protect her anymore, remember? Why shouldn't you get time with your dog's too?


Talk less - do more.

Assert yourself.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> It's not you job to protect her anymore, remember? Why shouldn't you get time with your dog's too?


I know. I just wonder how much she's going to blame me for this, since I "promised" to not try to take the dogs from her. That was during a 5-hour long, very emotional conversation the night that she was informing me that she was leaving, and the dogs were, far and away, her biggest worry. For some reason, I felt the need to comfort her and assure her I wouldn't try to take them from her scratchhead. I wonder how things would have been different had I told her that I would fight for one or both dogs, or if I had forbid her from taking my dog with her. Of course, with what I know now about her, and what I've discovered that she was doing to me behind my back, if she had stayed out of fear of losing the dogs it would have essentially just been kicking the can down the road to deal with another day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You were her enabler.

She was doing whatever she wanted.

Think about this.

You told her she could have the dogs. She wants you to keep your word.

Has she kept her words? Any of them?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You were her enabler.
> 
> She was doing whatever she wanted.
> 
> ...


Not on anything important. Point taken.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

At the point you promised, you were willing to agree to anything to keep her or a chance that she would change her mind. Dirty pool.

Get your dog back. She's certainly gotten enough from you over the years.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> At the point you promised, you were willing to agree to anything to keep her or a chance that she would change her mind. Dirty pool.


It actually had little or nothing to do with that. It was partly because I was in shock and not focused on peripheral issues like the dogs. But it was largely because she had me convinced that I had really messed up and was unworthy of her, the dogs, or anything else that made me happy.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

You are worthy, so get your dog back.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

angstire said:


> You are worthy, so get your dog back.


You'll be very surprised at the positive rush of internal emotion when you're re-united with your dog.

Trust me on this.

We'll build on it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You'll be very surprised at the positive rush of internal emotion when you're re-united with your dog.


I'm counting on this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I'm counting on this.


Blue,

If I read you right, you've - literally - gone YEARS without doing even one thing for you.

Get your dog back brother.

Let us know how righteous it feels to get your dog back.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If I read you right, you've - literally - gone YEARS without doing even one thing for you.


It wasn't that bad. I had a hobby that I participated in, on average, a couple times a month, and which often took me out of town. That was my reward to myself. But otherwise, I worked way too much in order to pay our bills and give her the freedom to do as she pleased. No doubt, I spoiled her, and did so thinking she appreciated me for it. I understand now that doesn't work for a normal person, let alone a disordered one who sees everything given to her as entitlements and not the result of someone else's sacrifice.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> It wasn't that bad. I had a hobby that I participated in, on average, a couple times a month, and which often took me out of town. That was my reward to myself. But otherwise, I worked way too much in order to pay our bills and give her the freedom to do as she pleased. No doubt, I spoiled her, and did so thinking she appreciated me for it. I understand now that doesn't work for a normal person, let alone a disordered one who sees everything given to her as entitlements and not the result of someone else's sacrifice.


Going forward, keep this in mind.

If someone asks, that means they see.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Keep doing your hobby. Get your dog. These things will help with reinforcing your identity as "you", and separate from her as part of "us".

Add other things that reinforce the "you" as time, money and energy allow.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

About six weeks ago, not long after removing stbxw as an authorized user on my credit card, a charge of nearly $900 showed up as "pending" on my account. I called the bank and they said that, despite her card now being invalid, there are still ways that she could have charged something to the account (fraudulently). I assume this would have had to have been online, but they didn't go into detail of how she could have done it. Anyway, they closed the account and said that if the charge ended up posting to the account, I could dispute it and not be responsible for it.

I called the company associated with the charge, who is primarily a manufacturer but also does direct sales online. They understood the situation and were willing to help, but called me back 15 minutes later to say they couldn't find any record of a purchase in that amount, or any purchases in my name or stbxw's name. Though they told me that a purchase could have been made through one of their independent dealers, in which case they wouldn't necessarily have record of it.

Fast forward to yesterday, and I got my statement for August, and, sure enough, that charge posted to my account on August 5. I called the bank again and reported it and they initiated a fraud investigation. I'm going to call the merchant again tomorrow to see if they have any more information on it now. The bank will also be communicating with them in order to try to figure it out, and promised to inform me of anything they find out.

I had never heard of the company before, but I see they make and sell binoculars, among other things optics-related, and that's something I could easily see stbxw being in the market for (she enters one of the dogs in field trials, he takes off like a rocket, and she struggles to keep sight of him). Plus, the local hunting/fishing/outdoors store that stbxw frequents is a dealer for this particular line of products.

I'm not sure how she would have known the 3-digit code from the back of my card, unless there are online merchants who don't require that code? Plus, the charge was in the name of the manufacturer of the product, not of another store who might have sold it, so that confuses me (especially since the manufacturer didn't have any record of a direct sale in that amount, at least at the time that it was just "pending"). From all of her financial information she's turned over to me now, I know that she didn't have $900 of credit on any of her cards (most of them were within $100 of being maxed out), so could she have done something really stupid like this? I really hope so.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Most bigger merchants want the 3 digit code when placing an order. 
She might have found a merchant that didn't require it.

She may have done it or your card number could have been stolen. Can they track where the merchandise was sent?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Can they track where the merchandise was sent?


They can, but the merchant told me they couldn't give me that information, only the credit card company when they contact them to investigate the charge. The credit card company told me they'd share with me whatever they find out, but they couldn't advise me on how long that would take.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> They can, but the merchant told me they couldn't give me that information, only the credit card company when they contact them to investigate the charge. The credit card company told me they'd share with me whatever they find out, but they couldn't advise me on how long that would take.


Just keep checking on it, maybe if you keep calling to check on the progress they will move it along quicker.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

This didn't take long. My attorney just called to tell me that my dog is being returned to me on Wednesday night. I'm extremely excited to be getting him back, but even more sad about having to do this to her than I thought I would be. Actually, as she was telling me the news, the first feeling that came over me was grief on stbxw's behalf. I don't know if she's the one bringing him on Wednesday or not. If she is, then it'll be that much harder for me.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> This didn't take long. My attorney just called to tell me that my dog is being returned to me on Wednesday night. I'm extremely excited to be getting him back, but even more sad about having to do this to her than I thought I would be. Actually, as she was telling me the news, the first feeling that came over me was grief on stbxw's behalf. I don't know if she's the one bringing him on Wednesday or not. If she is, then it'll be that much harder for me.


Maybe having her turn over the dog to you will move her to come up with some sort of visitation/sharing schedule.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Congrats, enjoy getting your dog back. Realize that it could be tough to see her, but don't pay interest on a debt you may not owe (i.e. try not to worry).

Don't worry about her grief. That's not your job anymore.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I just got an e-mail from her detailing everything that would be coming with him (I had e-mailed her to ask if there was anything I needed to pick up for him in preparation). The wording of the e-mail makes it pretty clear that she won't be the one bringing him over. I'm not sure whether I'm happy or sad about that now.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I just got an e-mail from her detailing everything that would be coming with him (I had e-mailed her to ask if there was anything I needed to pick up for him in preparation). The wording of the e-mail makes it pretty clear that she won't be the one bringing him over. I'm not sure whether I'm happy or sad about that now.


It's better that way. Now you can enjoy your dog's homecoming.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> It's better that way. Now you can enjoy your dog's homecoming.


Truth, no distractions, just a boy and his dog...sorry, 

Again, good for you.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah, it's probably best this way. Though, being one to analyze things, it's got me wondering if she's avoiding me or if she's avoiding the emotions of having to be the one to drive away without him. Probably both. And it probably doesn't matter.

Every time I start to feel bad about it, I have to remind myself that, a couple of weeks after she left, she offered to let me babysit him for a week, then turned around and revoked the offer, knowing I was looking forward to it, and then the couple of e-mails I sent begging her to change her mind were the ones that she started forwarding to her attorney and were the start of the threats of contempt for harassment.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm fighting the urge to e-mail her back to let her know that I take no pleasure in hurting her, despite the feeling that she very much enjoyed hurting me by keeping him from me for so long.

I'm going to go to bed before I say something in an e-mail that I'll regret....


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## BlindsidedGirl (Sep 10, 2013)

I'm glad that you are getting your dog back. I know my soon to be ex wouldn't dare take my dog because he's so bonded to me that he would destroy the house without me. =) And being that he's a Great Dane, that's a LOT of destruction!


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Blue, you don't owe her an apology, sympathy or an explanation for getting your dog back. No need to email her to offer her comforting words.

She has made it clear that your emotional state is no longer her concern, regardless of her influence on it. You should take the same approach.

That way when your dog arrives you can welcome the positive emotions you've starved yourself of in recent times without any lingering feelings of guilt.

You've punished yourself enough mate. She is responsible for the consequences of her decision to end the relationship. Including the loss of access to the dog and your bank account. Not you.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Blue, you don't owe her an apology, sympathy or an explanation for getting your dog back. No need to email her to offer her comforting words.
> 
> She has made it clear that your emotional state is no longer her concern, regardless of her influence on it. You should take the same approach.
> 
> ...


I think, given her strong NPD traits, I was expecting to be the recipient of a lot of angry messages for daring to do something like this to her. And my response to those would have been to point out everything she did to me, including the things she doesn't even know that I know (the things I learned from files I recovered from her old laptop). So I was counting on being able to feel better about myself by seeing her true colors again and then getting just enough off my chest to make her realize that she created this situation. In the end, she's coming across as "nice" by not reacting the way I was prepared for, and that makes it harder for me to feel good about it.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Don't let her reactions to what you do define your emotional state. Easier said than done I know. But you gotta try. Fake it until you make it perhaps.

You'll spend a long time waiting for her to show some level of remorse if that's what you're hoping for. Accountability for her actions? If that ever happens (doubtful) she probably won't allow you to see it.

It's high time big blue started letting his own actions dictate his emotional state. There's someone out there who is a much better life partner. Someone who will put your interests first. Don't scare that person off by being hung up on someone who deliberately put your health below her desire to have dogs on her bed! Someone who lied about her level of debt despite being very well supported by her husband. Someone who would have left you in a very cowardly fashion had you not been suspicious of her behavior!!!

We all want to see you in a better place blue. I hope you continue make progress.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I think, given her strong NPD traits, I was expecting to be the recipient of a lot of angry messages for daring to do something like this to her. And my response to those would have been to point out everything she did to me, including the things she doesn't even know that I know (the things I learned from files I recovered from her old laptop). So I was counting on being able to feel better about myself by seeing her true colors again and then getting just enough off my chest to make her realize that she created this situation. In the end, she's coming across as "nice" by not reacting the way I was prepared for, and that makes it harder for me to feel good about it.


Sounds like you had a whole scenario dreamed up in your head. It's almost like your disappointed that it won't be played out.

Remember this about getting your dog back, that's all that should matter right now.

If you have a need to get all that off your chest then write it out and put the letter/email away.

Sometimes we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we won't get all the answers. Truth is we might not get any answers. We need to accept that fact and move on.

Focus on your dog, enjoy him. Don't waste your time concentrating on your stbxw.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Focus on your dog, enjoy him. Don't waste your time concentrating on your stbxw.


I already went on a little Amazon shopping spree for him last night, and just walked across the road at lunch to the dollar store to pick up a couple more small things. I'll be sure to spoil him, and he'll be joining me Friday after work for my weekly trail-run with a buddy at a local park. I'm sure I'll be taking him there for more casual walks/runs at least a couple more times a week.

As for stbxw, I don't think there's any way around feeling a sense of bittersweetness to even the good things right now. I just hope time will make the ratio of bitter to sweet become less and less.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Don't let her reactions to what you do define your emotional state. Easier said than done I know. But you gotta try. Fake it until you make it perhaps.
> 
> You'll spend a long time waiting for her to show some level of remorse if that's what you're hoping for. Accountability for her actions? If that ever happens (doubtful) she probably won't allow you to see it.
> 
> ...


F*ck an A. All of this. 

I can tell you from recent experience, waiting for remorse is unfullfilling. She most likely won't do it and if she does, it could be years. More likely, you'll get a ton of blameshifting. Don't wait for this, hope for it, etc. Try to detach and move on. Try to focus on you, getting healthy, etc. Try not to think about how you got screwed by her (even though you did). Ultimately, that's energy that continues to go into your past. And will not help you move into your future.

You and I have been through similar stuff in the way our relationships ended and we gave. No kids together, so minimal attachment after the D. And everything Torn said is true. The less you focus on her and instead make this about what you can change and your future, the faster you will recover. 

You're doing well throughout the time you started posting. Keep it up.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I already went on a little Amazon shopping spree for him last night, and just walked across the road at lunch to the dollar store to pick up a couple more small things. I'll be sure to spoil him, and he'll be joining me Friday after work for my weekly trail-run with a buddy at a local park. I'm sure I'll be taking him there for more casual walks/runs at least a couple more times a week.
> 
> As for stbxw, I don't think there's any way around feeling a sense of bittersweetness to even the good things right now. I just hope time will make the ratio of bitter to sweet become less and less.


Sounds like he's going to be one lucky dog to be with you. Spoil him and have fun!!!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

He's here! Surprisingly, it was my stbxw and her father who dropped him off. It took them, literally, 10 seconds to hand him to me, set his supplies inside the door, and leave. Very cold.

And not 2 minutes later, just as I expected, I was laying on the floor hugging him and became an emotional wreck thinking about how selfish I'm being and how much pain I was causing. I just don't like that feeling.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> He's here! Surprisingly, it was my stbxw and her father who dropped him off. It took them, literally, 10 seconds to hand him to me, set his supplies inside the door, and leave. Very cold.
> 
> And not 2 minutes later, just as I expected, I was laying on the floor hugging him and became an emotional wreck thinking about how selfish I'm being and how much pain I was causing. I just don't like that feeling.


How selfish YOU are being?

What's with that?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I know. It's not something I can just turn off. Plus, for a while, he's going to be wondering where his "brother" is. But he also loves playing with and sleeping with the cats, so he's not alone.

My stbxw still has a key to the house, and I suspect she'll take any opportunity she gets to come visit him when I'm at work and she's not. And I actually feel good about that....


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

You have conditioned yourself to feeling responsible for her actions over a long period of time. Accepted blame for things you shouldn't have. Reprogramming your emotional response to situations like this will take time.

At least now you recognize it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Happy to be home.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Good for you. When I go to the ex's house the dog goes crazy. I miss him for sure.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Happy to be home.


THAT's more like it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Beautiful dog


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

He looks pretty happy to me!!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I had a meeting with my attorney yesterday to finally discuss my stbxw's discovery and determine what more we want to go after. She agrees with me that we should dig deeper into her debt, especially her jewelry purchases, so she is going to subpoena more credit card statements to try to get to the bottom of how much money she's blown on jewelry and where that jewelry is now.

We have distinctly contrasting views on the value of me knowing with certainty whether or not stbxw had been cheating on me. My attorney says the court won't even want to consider it. When I explained that it would be worth it for me to know, and for stbxw to know I know, and for, potentially, stbxw's family and friends to know, she began to realize that it was important to me, regardless of its irrelevance to the divorce. But then she told me that she has no ability to subpoena her cell phone records, that federal law prohibits it now. We were voluntarily given the monthly statements for the past year, with the CALL logs, as part of discovery, but not the TEXT logs. Every single reference I can find online is that this information is able to be subpoenaed as part of any criminal, domestic, or civil court case, but my attorney told me that neither she nor the court can get it anymore. She actually gave me the phone number for a local private investigator who she said might be able to help me.

Does anybody know any more about this? Before I call or e-mail my attorney to report everything I'm reading online (past experience is that she'll not appreciate me doubting her word), is there some VERY recent law that protects this information on my stbxw's behalf?


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

I don't think that you can get text messaging either way but in the end how much does it really matter if you already believe that there was an affair? mine tried doing the same "I just want to tell you that I wasn't having an affair" as if she has any right to ask me to trust a single word that comes out of her mouth.

I don't think it's possible though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> I don't think that you can get text messaging either way...


I know I can't get the TRANSCRIPTS of the messages, but the logs of who/when she texted are supposedly readily available according to many lawyers responding to the question here:

Can cell phone records be accessed for civil matters? ? 39 Legal Answers as of October 18, 2012 - LawQA.com

In fact, I was also reading somewhere that the phone's geolocation data is saved by the provider and can be subpoenaed. That would be extremely informative to me.



> ...but in the end how much does it really matter if you already believe that there was an affair?


Me believing there was an affair and having strong evidence (or proof) are two different things, especially as it relates to the mutual friends and family whose relationships with me have been poisoned by her multi-year smear campaign against me, behind my back, while smiling to my face and praising me for everything I provided for her. She made a life of basking in the sympathy she evoked from others at my expense. I want to be able to shake that up a little bit.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> *poisoned by her multi-year smear campaign against me*, behind my back, while smiling to my face and praising me for everything I provided for her. She made a life of basking in the sympathy she evoked from others at my expense. I want to be able to shake that up a little bit.


I read this part and just got ill. So toxic and so much planning. God, our exes sound so much alike. We loved the facade and they hated us to some level behind the facade. Yuck. I need a shower.

Have you read this? Made a lot of sense to me.

BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

when mind tries to throw a fit I just remind her that she is not the victim. if she persists in any type of defamation I would have no problem recommending to the court that she takes a psych evaluation for cluster B personality disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> We loved the facade and they hated us to some level behind the facade.


Actually, I've realized that it wasn't the facade that I loved. I loved the real person, the girl with vulnerabilities and insecurities that I saw when she let her guard down. But she is deeply ashamed of that person and those feelings, doesn't love that person, can't feel love from me or others for that _flawed_ person, and thus the facade of a highly-confident, highly-accomplished professional. And the more praise that she can manipulate into being tossed at her professional image, the less she has to confront her insecurities. For a long time, I fed into her ego and funded her pursuit of getting her ego fed by others too. The last couple of years I became wary of her preoccupation with her image, and I know she sensed the decrease in the amount praise that I threw at it. And two months before she left, I did the unthinkable and reduced funding for it. The narcissistic supply she obtained from me was depleted, so time to move on.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I had a long visit with a cousin of mine last night, who is best friends with the wife of an attorney in a neighboring county. My cousin works for the court system in the neighboring county and is familiar with a lot of the common practices in divorces. She called up her friend in my presence to have her ask her husband about my attorney's claim that she could not subpoena my stbxw's cell phone records. He told his wife to tell my cousin to tell me that if she is claiming that, I need to tell her to show me the law or that she's fired. There's apparently no truth to it, she can get the records for me, and she apparently just doesn't want to. He also said that my attorney is not respected in the county anymore because she was caught lying in court and was charged with contempt.

Another topic that we disagree on is my stbxw's medical records. My attorney asked for her medical providers and what she was treated for in the past two years, but stbxw objected vehemently to giving up any details of what she was treated for. Through our insurance provider, I'm able to see that she has been to the doctor basically on a monthly basis over the past 1.5 to 2 years, with lots of lab work done. But the EOBs don't give any details on what the visits were for or what the lab tests were. I would really like to know if she visited the doctor for, say, STD tests, pregnancy tests, etc. My attorney refuses to subpoena those records, because if we find out that she has some sort of medical condition that affects her future earning potential, then that could hurt me in the determination of alimony. What is the likelihood of that? Especially since, to use information like that in that way, SHE would have had to provide the information to us. I accepted her explanation at the time, but now I think she just doesn't want to help me dig for evidence of infidelity.

I need to call her today and, at minimum, get to the bottom of why she lied to me about her ability to subpoena cell phone records, and maybe bring up the medical records again. I'm not looking forward to this, because the couple of times I've pointed things out like this before she has gotten noticeably insulted that I looked for answers behind her back, not trusting her implicitly. I'm starting to get the feeling I've hired a narcissist to help me divorce a narcissist.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

If you don't like or trust your lawyer then fire her and get a new one.

You seem to be focusing a lot of energy of things that aren't going to affect the outcome of your case. Right now your only concern should be financial because you don't want to get stuck with a financial mess once this is over.

You're letting a bunch of personal stuff get in the way of that focus. Stop worrying about BPD and phone records. If adultery has no effect on the case then don't bring it into the proceedings. 

Focus on you and how you can secure the best outcome for your case.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> You seem to be focusing a lot of energy of things that aren't going to affect the outcome of your case. Right now your only concern should be financial because you don't want to get stuck with a financial mess once this is over.
> 
> You're letting a bunch of personal stuff get in the way of that focus. Stop worrying about BPD and phone records. If adultery has no effect on the case then don't bring it into the proceedings.


Maybe these things won't affect the outcome of the case, but they might still affect my ability to move forward with some sort of satisfaction that I didn't lay down for her. Right now I have a lot of anger about how stupid she thinks I am (and, in a way, I was very stupid). But it bothers me to think of her walking away with the belief that I'm still just as stupid and just as oblivious to who she is and what she orchestrated for so long, at such a high price for me financially and, more importantly, emotionally. The worst thing that could ever happen to her is for the perfect image she's created for herself to be tarnished. Is it wrong or otherwise abnormal for me to want her to feel some uneasiness as a result of her actions?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Maybe these things won't affect the outcome of the case, but they might still affect my ability to move forward with some sort of satisfaction that I didn't lay down for her. Right now I have a lot of anger about how stupid she thinks I am (and, in a way, I was very stupid). But it bothers me to think of her walking away with the belief that I'm still just as stupid and just as oblivious to who she is and what she orchestrated for so long, at such a high price for me financially and, more importantly, emotionally. The worst thing that could ever happen to her is for the perfect image she's created for herself to be tarnished. Is it wrong or otherwise abnormal for me to want her to feel some uneasiness as a result of her actions?


No not at all. I used to feel the same way and I must admit as I watch him develop health issue after health issue I realize he's suffering. Everything didn't work out the way he wanted it to.

Now a funny thing has happened as time has passed. It's beginning to matter less and less. I am resigning myself to the fact that I will not get the answers I want. I need to find a way to move on without them. That's what I'm doing now.

I think if you are able to expose her financial irresponsibly that will send a clear signal that you are not "stupid". You will also shut her down if she doesn't end up getting what she wants in the divorce. 

You're all over the place, focus on one thing and go after it. You'll have more success that way.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> I think if you are able to expose her financial irresponsibly that will send a clear signal that you are not "stupid". You will also shut her down if she doesn't end up getting what she wants in the divorce.
> 
> You're all over the place, focus on one thing and go after it. You'll have more success that way.


I think what she wants most is to have it over with, even if she had to agree to a lesser settlement to accomplish that. Guiding her this way are a few things: 1. Her stubborn belief that she is self-sufficient (when, in reality, she targeted me and then stuck with me so long because I provided for her voluntarily without the indignity of her having to ask for it or admit any dependency); 2. Her absolute fearless attitude toward debt; and, 3. The sympathy that she would continue to have tossed her way if she were to walk out of a "horrible" marriage having been "victimized" by me yet again. She would eat that up and would gladly pay for that privilege. Though, in reality, no matter how she comes out of the divorce, she'll have been screwed over by her lawyer, the judge, me, or all of us, in her accounts to her family and friends.

My interest in the adultery could very well go beyond my obvious interest in knowing for sure and exposing her for it. It can also play into the finances, since it would be yet one more thing that she would have spent money on to incur her significant debt behind my back.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Actually, I've realized that it wasn't the facade that I loved. I loved the real person, the girl with vulnerabilities and insecurities that I saw when she let her guard down.


You know your situation better than me, obviously, so I am not telling you that what applied to me applies to you.

However, I have realized that I loved a facade of what she wanted me to see, and then my delusion ran with that despite her behavior to the countrary. She created the facade and I reinforced it. Earlier this summer, I would have said the same as you, there is a lot to love there and that's what I wanted. A few months later, that isn't what was going on, I believed the lie that she loved me because she worked so hard at it and I wanted to believe it. I didn't see the real her.

That may be what is going on for you now, or it may not. I'm giving you another option to consider, but ultimately, you are the arbiter of your situation and you have first hand info that I don't. Just trying to help be relating what I've learned.

SS if correct, try to focus on getting out of the marriage with what you want financially. If digging into infidelity doesn't help you out financially, let it sit for now.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> I think what she wants most is to have it over with, even if she had to agree to a lesser settlement to accomplish that. Guiding her this way are a few things: 1. Her stubborn belief that she is self-sufficient (when, in reality, she targeted me and then stuck with me so long because I provided for her voluntarily without the indignity of her having to ask for it or admit any dependency); 2. Her absolute fearless attitude toward debt; and, 3. The sympathy that she would continue to have tossed her way if she were to walk out of a "horrible" marriage having been "victimized" by me yet again. She would eat that up and would gladly pay for that privilege. Though, in reality, no matter how she comes out of the divorce, she'll have been screwed over by her lawyer, the judge, me, or all of us, in her accounts to her family and friends.
> 
> My interest in the adultery could very well go beyond my obvious interest in knowing for sure and exposing her for it. It can also play into the finances, since it would be yet one more thing that she would have spent money on to incur her significant debt behind my back.


From what you've said about your stbxw I have a feeling if she had an affair whomever the posom is was spending the money. 

If you think the jewelry store bill might have been for "gifts" she bought I don't think it's going to matter. You will end up spending more on lawyers fees than the bill actually was. 

You want to hold her accountable, I get that. You need to be careful though to not let your emotions take over right now. Too much focus on her.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> SS if correct, try to focus on getting out of the marriage with what you want financially. If digging into infidelity doesn't help you out financially, let it sit for now.


I'm looking at it like this: I'm going to be taking out a loan to write her a hefty check. The cost of acquiring more information about who I was married to is a drop in the bucket comparatively. Once the divorce is final, I won't have the ability to obtain any of this information. And maybe me having that information will actually pay off by making her more eager to settle for less.

That's how my head justifies it.

My heart justifies it in fewer, more colorful words.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

It sounds like you know what you're doing and why; go forth.

And spill the colorful words if it helps, just remember the ****s.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Well, Friday is our 10-year anniversary. The plan at the beginning of the year was to celebrate it in our favorite spot, Acadia National Park. Which is now closed due to the government shutdown. A sign?


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Probably not, but still a trigger for you, of better times.

I biked past a restaurant we had a fight after dinner on the way home a few years ago. Trigger city.

Sorry dude, try to find something(s) to do on your anniversary to distract yourself. You can struggle other days to work thru things, but on particularly tough days, give yourself a break and try to do other things, that distract you.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Sorry dude, try to find something(s) to do on your anniversary to distract yourself. You can struggle other days to work thru things, but on particularly tough days, give yourself a break and try to do other things, that distract you.


I definitely plan to try to keep myself occupied. Though I'm one of those people who, the more I try to not think about something, the more I think about the fact that I'm trying not to think about it.

I might be busy shopping for a new attorney that day, as it's been 5 days now since I called my attorney's office wanting to speak to her about the phone records that I know she lied about. She doesn't know what I want to speak about, but I think 5 days is enough time to get a return call. I called again this morning and reiterated my need to speak to her.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

She works for you, so if she's not getting back to you, do what you can to get her attention. Just so you know, my attorney is not great about that either and I've had her for over 10 years.

If you're doing something else on your anniversary, focus will be on that, hopefully that will be enough.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

So apparently my stbxw's way of showing disapproval with me is by instructing a family member to unfriend me on Facebook with each infringing act. A month ago, it was her sister upon learning that I was asking the court to make her return my dog. Yesterday, it was her Mom upon getting the news that we're requesting all of her credit card statements going back several more years AND she's going to be getting deposed on the topic of her finances.

She fails to see how obvious she was when she left without warning, with no believable reason, refusing counseling, and with the mindset of wanting it done as quickly as possible. She had to know that the discovery of nearly 50k of debt, despite having no significant financial responsibilities, would inspire some investigation. And now I can just see her stomping her feet in disbelief that I would be making this so hard _on her_.


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## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Weird, my STBXW's family has been ADDING me on FB. I deleted all of her friends when she moved out.

Oddly enough, she LEFT FB the day she moved out and came back about a week ago... right as our final papers were being signed.

More people are starting to see through her though... you might experience the same.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Well, I know she's been telling her family nothing but bad things about me for years. At least, I _know_ she was e-mailing and Skyping with her friends to that effect, so I assume her personal communications with her family were no different. She's the classic victimized extreme narcissist, in that she gets as much satisfaction from attention in the form of sympathy as she does from attention in the traditional, grandiose sense.

An example of how I know she was talking behind my back: We split our household duties, largely, according to what my severe seasonal allergies allow me to do easily. Significantly, this means that she cut the grass, which amounts to a quarter of an acre. This took a good hour of her time each week. In exchange, I did things that she felt were beneath her, such as vacuuming, scrubbing the kitchen and bathroom floors, etc. She _doesn't_ scrub floors. Plus, she's not really a girly girl, grew up on a farm, and prefers outdoor work. Perfect, because I also don't like hot weather, but love the winter, so I was happy to do all the winter work, shoveling snow, etc. Well, one day her parents showed up unexpectedly pulling one of their horse trailers, and in the horse trailer was a brand new riding lawn mower for her. To aid her in cutting the grass of our quarter acre. I didn't even think about what it meant at the time (other than "wow, that's really nice of them"), but now it's obvious to me that she went to them and cried about how horrible I was to make her cut the grass, when, in reality, that was part of our very mutually-agreeable division of responsibilities. I'm sure they know nothing of the traditional "woman's" responsibilities (whatever that means) that I took on out of necessity because she refused to do anything she deemed to be demeaning.

So, long story short, I have a lot of hole to dig myself out of with her family. Probably deeper than I can even imagine. In fact, I actually have been starting to feel embarrassed about past family get-togethers, where I was playing along as beloved son-in-law, and now realizing that they were probably hating me the whole time.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Try to let it go man. Who cares what they think or thought. It sounds like you stepped up the plate, were honest and did what you agreed to do. If you can look in the mirror, eff what they think.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> Try to let it go man. Who cares what they think or thought. It sounds like you stepped up the plate, were honest and did what you agreed to do. If you can look in the mirror, eff what they think.


I know. As I explained to a friend in an e-mail yesterday, it dawned on me that part of the reason that I care so much is that her family is huge compared to mine. The sum of my family and my friends is less than the number of her family members (immediate and distant) that I considered people I "know". So, in effect, my character has been and is being assassinated to greater than half the people I know. It's just infuriating.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

A deposition of my stbxw is now set up for Halloween morning (how appropriate). I'm not looking forward to being in a room with her, but it will be interesting to see how she stands up to the pressure of very pointed questions, many of which will challenge her perfect perception of herself. She's supposed to bring with her the last 18 months of text records and 5 more years of credit card statements. In addition, a subpoena was sent to her bank last week inquiring about the current/historical existence of a safety deposit box and the records of when it was accessed.

I was also notified that her attorney will be deposing me as well. My initial response is "Great! Ask me anything! Hook us both up to lie-detectors!" But I suspect she will have woven quite a story for him to pick at. Until last week, they hadn't even asked me for my credit card statements. They knew it had a zero balance, so apparently didn't care. But once they got the request for more of hers (5 cards x 5 years = 300 statements) they immediately requested the same from me. I'm not sure if it was just to give us work to do, or if they're actually going through the statements looking for misuse. What they'll find more than anything is thousands upon thousands of dollars of her business travel expenses that she charged to it without telling me, then she pocketed the money when she was reimbursed for much of it. It has a feeling of embezzlement to me, but, of course, it's legal to do when it's your spouse that you're siphoning the money from.

Anybody sat for a deposition before?


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Good luck. I have sat one before. It was over 10 years ago for work. Answer the questions as short as possible. Don't volunteer anything. Your attorney will likely advise the same.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Hey Blue. Is it possible that the lawyer is acting under instruction from your ex in simple retaliation to your request? This move doesn't appear to have a great deal of strategy behind it.

It could just be a hail mary. Perhaps she hopes her lawyer can unearth a little nugget of gold that helps paint you as the bad guy. That way she can continue to live in fantasy land where it's always someone else's fault and she never has to own her shyte.

Be ready for anything though. I've never been interrogated before but I've witnessed my brother being savaged by the court system in a custody battle. It's incredible how low some people will sink to get themselves out of a losing position.

We often have an unrealistic expectation that once all parties are in a room with a judge and lawyers everyone will tell the truth and the bad guy has to face up to what they've done. Don't be shocked if your ex lies. And definitely don't be surprised if, despite the weight of evidence against her, your ex maintains she did nothing wrong during and after the hearing.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah, I'm sure it's rooted in retaliation, since I'm sure had my attorney not decided to depose her, they would have had no reason to depose me. Whether they have any real plan or not, I don't know. Maybe they plan on just reacting to what my attorney asks her and then pressing me on the same things.

This won't be in front of the judge. It'll be at my attorney's office with a court reporter there to document everything. When stbxw lied on her signed and notarized financial affidavit that she submitted with the divorce petition, my attorney said "no big deal -- lots of people do that". When she lied on several of her interrogatories, my attorney didn't think anything of it. But for this, she says the stakes are higher. That said, I have no expectation that she'll be truthful. I don't think she fears anything. And while I haven't met with my attorney yet to go through all the questions, I'm sure several of them will be concerning topics on which I know things that she doesn't know I know. I'm not sure how these things work -- if she can ask a question, get her to lie, and then we whip out an e-mail or Skype conversation that I recovered from our old computer and confront her with it? That would be fun.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

I met with my attorney to discuss topics for her to address in the deposition of my stbxw on Thursday, and to speculate about what her attorney will ask me. She thinks much of their line of questioning will be concerning my education and job in order to boost their case for an eventual spousal support claim. My attorney already thinks my stbxw hurt her case for maximum support because, in response to the interrogatories, instead of "listing all jobs she has had since high school" (as she was asked), she attached her entire 3-4 page curriculum vitae which lists all of her jobs, education, certifications, journal publications, and speaking engagements. She couldn't resist showing it off, and my attorney was in disbelief that her attorney didn't stop her from doing that.

What sucks, and what I'm going to have to really concentrate on, is that I have to speak highly of her personality, employability, intellect -- basically everything that would go towards her earning potential, I have to speak highly of. And I have to do it without laughing or showing any other signs of deception.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

i havent read all of this. you sound like a good guy. i see nothing wrong with a man who first priority is his family finances and making sure his wife was happy. 

the thing that bothers me is she was taking advantage of you. having you pay off her credit cards. i dont know about your state but i think that after she moved out all debt occured by her after that date is her to pay. especially if they are in her name. have you checked into that. can you prove the date she left you and then prove she is responsible for her own bills after that date. i will continue reading but i just wanted to throw that out to you in case nobody or your lawyer hasnt yet

my apologize is you already got this informatin.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

All of her cards are basically maxed out and have been for a while. For the past year (at least) she's basically been treading water, paying a couple hundred per month on each of them and spending the same. So I don't think she could have accumulated any additional debt since she left.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

MrsVain said:


> the thing that bothers me is she was taking advantage of you.


I also discovered that she conned me into paying all of her income tax the last couple of years. She conveniently "forgot" to tell me that the job she was working was as a subcontractor under her business name, not as a regular employee with regular tax deductions. So she paid no tax during the year, then hid it from me by disguising it in our joint tax return, which I just signed without even looking and wrote the federal and state checks that she specified. She wrote off a lot of income due to business expenses, but I ended up paying all the tax on her net income plus her personal business tax.

And, in a Skype conversation I recovered from her laptop, she had the balls to tell a friend of hers on the other side of the country that she didn't have enough money to fly out to visit her because "she" didn't get a tax refund because "my husband makes too much money, so we got screwed on our taxes because _he_ didn't have enough withheld."


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> I also discovered that she conned me into paying all of her income tax the last couple of years. She conveniently "forgot" to tell me that the job she was working was as a subcontractor under her business name, not as a regular employee with regular tax deductions. So she paid no tax during the year, then hid it from me by disguising it in our joint tax return, which I just signed without even looking and wrote the federal and state checks that she specified. She wrote off a lot of income due to business expenses, but I ended up paying all the tax on her net income plus her personal business tax.
> 
> And, in a Skype conversation I recovered from her laptop, she had the balls to tell a friend of hers on the other side of the country that she didn't have enough money to fly out to visit her because "she" didn't get a tax refund because "my husband makes too much money, so we got screwed on our taxes because _he_ didn't have enough withheld."


This surprises you?

Codependents fill in the gaps and think they'll be appreciated for taking care of taxes and the like.

You figured you were a team and she was on your team and vice versa.

What you've discovered is that she's on her team.

AND... she's been very consistent about it.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This surprises you?
> 
> Codependents fill in the gaps and think they'll be appreciated for taking care of taxes and the like.
> 
> ...


No surprises anymore.

It's funny you mention the team analogy. When she was frustrated or depressed the last few years, several times she lamented: "I don't feel like we're a team." Unbelievable. She was working for her glorification. I was working to enable her pursuit of glorification. It seems to me that our "teamwork" was working out well for her.

What I now recognize she meant was: "You're not kissing my @ss enough."

She wanted praised continuously, but not as my wife. That's not a role that earned her any satisfaction or notoriety. She wanted to be praised as my superior, as the best animal behaviorist around, and she wanted me to do it with gratitude for her allowing me to bask in her glow.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> What I now recognize she meant was: "You're not kissing my @ss enough."


Setting that precedent sets a very dangerous dynamic.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Setting that precedent sets a very dangerous dynamic.


Yeah, the precedent was set for many years. A couple of years ago, when I developed my sleep apnea symptoms, I found myself falling asleep earlier and earlier every night and, as a result, started being less excited for her career because of how infrequently we found ourselves home together, awake, in the evenings. She surely sensed that and interpreted it as being unsupportive, which was certainly not the message I was trying to send.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Good luck with the deposition Blue.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Good luck with the deposition Blue.


Thanks. I've got a couple more weeks to think about it now. Her attorney delivered a bunch more of her credit card statements to my attorney late this afternoon, apologized for the timing, and said we could reschedule the deposition if we want to take some time to look through them. Plus, he said there were more to come. So we're going to wait until we have them all so we have the full picture to depose her on.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Have you had a look at the information provided yet? and if so:

1) Does it contradict any of her earlier statements regarding her financial position?

2) Is there anything that assists your argument for a reduced settlement?

How hard is this information to obtain? Surely it shouldn't take this long to hand all of it over. Why the drip feed?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

All we had received as part of the original discovery and interrogatories were the most recent twelve months of statements for each of the cards. A couple of them told us a lot (that she blew over 7k on jewelry in the past year, for one), but several of them didn't have significant purchases in the past year, just a high balance with a lot of minor purchases and a payment each month that was basically just covering the interest/fees and whatever minor purchases she made that month. How the balances got so high to begin with wasn't revealed, so, as part of the notice of deposition, she was asked to bring all of her statements going back to 2007 to the deposition, in addition to 18 months of text records from her phone. I questioned my attorney on the wisdom of having them provide the new information on the day of the interrogation, and she assured me that the standard practice, regardless of how the notice of deposition is worded, is to get any requested documents to each other in advance of the deposition.

I'm not sure why it took several weeks (and apparently there are still more to come). Perhaps she didn't have the statements going back to 2007 and dragged her feet on putting in the request for copies from Capital One, etc.

What's apparent is that a large percentage of the debt is related to: 1) her business; and, 2) her lust for jewelry. So my attorney actually floated the proposal to her attorney for her to accept the debt in exchange for keeping her business and all the jewelry. He didn't commit to it, but she (my attorney) didn't think that he was dismissing it, since she thinks he knows that I had no idea about the debt and seems very understanding about our interest in it. So that's the ultimate goal, with regards to the debt.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re: Re: Trying to Figure It Out*



BlueCalcite said:


> I questioned my attorney on the wisdom of having them provide the new information on the day of the interrogation, and she assured me that the standard practice, regardless of how the notice of deposition is worded, is to get any requested documents to each other in advance of the deposition.


So it's 'standard practice' to be under prepared? These lawyers live on a different planet to the rest of us.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> So it's 'standard practice' to be under prepared? These lawyers live on a different planet to the rest of us.


No, I meant that she implied that the wording on the notice of depositions, at least in my county, is typically funny, in that it is specified what is "to be brought" to the deposition, but, in practice, all the attorneys in the area treat it as meaning "provide to us in advance of the deposition". Which is why her attorney apologized for dropping the statements off the day before the deposition, when all he was asked was to bring them the day of.

I guess the real question is why it got to be the day before the deposition with my attorney having said nothing to me or to them about having not received the statements yet.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Deposition now scheduled for November 25. We just received a bunch more credit card statements, but are still awaiting about 4-years-worth of statements for the card used for all of her jewelry purchases.

This new batch of statements revealed something that made me chuckle. In early 2009 she came to me and sheepishly admitted that she was behind on her bills, that she had 2 credit cards instead of 1, and that she had a $3,000 balance on one of them. I paid it off for her, and she voluntarily handed me the card to hide from her because she wasn't going to use it anymore. Sometime in 2011 I found that card hidden in my office, struggled to remember what it was, then remembered (fondly) about how she voluntarily gave it up and had never begged for it back. Well, she didn't need to beg for it back because she never stopped using it. She was still having charges made to it electronically right after she gave it to me, and later that year had obviously requested a replacement card, and another six months later the balance was at $5,000 (maxed out). So when I found the card in 2011 and was proud of her for not using it, it had been maxed out for a year.

A short cover letter from her attorney that accompanied the statements that we just got states: "Our position is that all of these debts are marital, just as your client's debts were marital. The only difference is that your client had the financial means to pay his debt each month whereas [stbxw] did not."

It seems funny that "marital" purchases would not be put on the credit card I gave her to use for all marital purchases and, furthermore, that the credit cards on which these "marital" purchases were made were all kept secret from me.

The fight continues....


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Sorry dude, what a mess. keep us updated.

How are things going outside of divorce land?


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re: Re: Trying to Figure It Out*



BlueCalcite said:


> A short cover letter from her attorney that accompanied the statements that we just got states: "Our position is that all of these debts are marital, just as your client's debts were marital. The only difference is that your client had the financial means to pay his debt each month whereas [stbxw] did not."


They know what you're angling for. They know you've got a solid case. By stating her position they are attempting to cut you off at the pass. Trying to bluff you into not even attempting to make her accountable for her deceitful actions.

Perhaps your lawyer could state your position.

"We do not accept that all of these debts are marital. Our position is that some of these debts were accumulated without Blue's knowledge or consent and your client deliberately withheld this information for her own personal benefit."

Keep up the fight Blue.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

angstire said:


> How are things going outside of divorce land?


Up and down. The time change a couple weeks ago definitely had an impact on my mood. The darkness pretty much immediately upon returning home from work makes for long evenings (and that will only get worse for at least another month). I saw my doctor a few weeks ago for anxiety related to the approaching deposition, and the topic of depression came up. I told him it wasn't a big issue now, but that I thought it might largely be because of all of the time I was spending digging into her financials (I have a constantly-evolving Excel spreadsheet in which I've entered every one of her purchases from all of her credit card and checking account statements, classified by purchase category, plotted debt over time, etc.). That's occupying a lot of my time, as is the letter I've been working on to send her family after everything is over. From a depression standpoint, I'm more concerned about a couple/few months from now, when things are presumably over. That concerned him, and he advised me to start on Zoloft because it takes a while to kick in. I've had the prescription for three weeks and haven't taken one. I just hate taking pills. I was even nervous about taking a Xanax, and didn't take one until this weekend just to see what it would do (so I didn't walk into the deposition not knowing how I'd respond). Surprisingly, I felt nothing from taking the Xanax, so I might have to call my doctor to see if I need a higher dose for the deposition.



torn2012 said:


> They know what you're angling for. They know you've got a solid case. By stating her position they are attempting to cut you off at the pass. Trying to bluff you into not even attempting to make her accountable for her deceitful actions.


My attorney hasn't ruled that out -- that they're just holding onto whatever leverage they have until it's ripped from them by force. I suppose her attorney wouldn't be doing his job if he voluntarily gave up on the debt fight.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Deposition pushed back again, as yesterday we received the majority of the rest of her credit card statements. We're just missing a few miscellaneous ones now, so we have a pretty good sense of what happened with her debt. She spent $13,571.10 at the jewelry store since she opened the account in 2007. $4,400 of that was just after Christmas last year, apparently attracted to the offer of one year of deferred interest. I think she assumed she would have paid it off by now, and certainly since she filed for D she had to have thought she would have received her payday by now. But as it stands, on January 3 she gets hit with $1,300 in interest if she hasn't paid her $4,150 balance. There's no way she can pay it unless she borrows money from somebody. But I have a feeling she doesn't really care. What's another $1,300?

My attorney issued a subpoena to that jewelry store yesterday, which I wanted her to do a month ago. Hopefully they'll have the records to identify exactly what jewelry she purchased. Additionally, I hope that subpoena embarrasses the hell out of her, because she's on a first-name basis with the owners of the store, and always claimed to have a standing job offer there.

I've been keeping a constantly-evolving plot of her debt over time as we received her statements. Last night I added a line representing her total credit line as it changed over time with each new credit card she acquired. What's apparent now is that she has always had between $5,000 and $10,000 of available credit, spread across all her cards. Plenty of breathing room. That is, until that jewelry shopping spree in December, and another $1,033 she spent there early this year, which, by April, brought her within $1,000 of her total available credit. And this just happened to coincide with my revelation that I wasn't going to be pulling down the same overtime, instead selfishly focusing on my health. So her credit was drying up and her number one supporter was (in her eyes) abandoning her. Seems like the perfect time to cash out of a marriage that she was only in for the financial security.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

6 credit cards? How many did you know about before she left?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> 6 credit cards? How many did you know about before she left?


There are actually five. Two of those in the graph are actually the same "account" (the two blue ones), but it was renumbered in 2011. For some reason my attorney wants me to keep them separated in all of my spreadsheets/graphs.

I knew about exactly one of them.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Some progress has been made in the past couple weeks. The jewelry store responded to the subpoena with copies of all of her receipts, including descriptions of what was purchased. As we already knew, she spent about $13,500 there, and while most of it was to purchase new pieces, she also had some repairs/resizing done to pieces she apparently purchased elsewhere. But upon dropping them off to be worked on, they assigned a value to them. So between what she purchased there and what she had repaired there, we know she has at least $20,000 in jewelry (as opposed to the $7,600 she claimed. I assumed we would be rescheduling the deposition, when I received a surprise in the mail....

She's apparently nervous about getting exposed in court for all of her lies (both to me and to the court), because we received a settlement offer from her. She's offering to keep all of her debt and is not asking for spousal support in exchange for 50% of the value of the house and 50% of the value of my IRA (in cash; she doesn't want to establish an IRA of her own, since saving money for tomorrow is against everything she stands for). While the offer is favorable for me in theory, compared to what I could get stuck with if the court was to not care about all the evidence I have, we are objecting to how they arrived at their numbers, since they overestimated the value of the house by $15,000 and they're asking for a full 50% of the IRA in cash, not taking into account that it hasn't been taxed yet. So we're formulating a counter-offer to give her 50% of the appraised value of the house and the cash equivalent of 35% of my IRA, which would be what her half would be worth after taxes are deducted (70% of 50%). If she accepts it, or if we otherwise reach an agreement soon, then our scheduled January 6 status hearing would become the final divorce hearing.

I took the opportunity to have a little fun last week. She received some mail at the house -- a notice from the BMV, and some Christmas cards from acquaintances of hers who are obviously not close-enough acquaintances to have heard the news. I felt obligated to forward those to her, but not without slipping into the envelope a catalog for the big holiday sale at the jewelry store! Either that jab went right over her head, or she's looking for any opportunity to get on my good side (to accept her offer?) because I had an e-mail from her the next day thanking me for forwarding the mail to her. It was the first communication in two months.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

It's been a while, and things are pretty much over. There have been a lot of highs and now a pretty big low that has me feeling almost as low as the months right after she left.

A settlement was reached. She's assuming all of her debt and not asking for any spousal support, which she surely could have received. But she knew she'd be embarrassed in court and wanted to avoid that. So all the papers are signed by us, filed with the court, and now just waiting for the judge to sign to make it official.

Things were really looking up for me in the last month or so. I joined Match, and went out with a really great girl. Probably out of my league, but I could tell from our profiles that we have a ton in common, and I ranked her far and away at the top of the list of girls I'd like to meet. So when she agreed (after several funny e-mail exchanges), I was over the moon. It was my first date since 1997, but I went into it with low expectations, and that made it easier to just have fun. It didn't take long for her to learn that she was my first date since being on Match. She seemed less honored by that than I imagined. A little while into dinner she leaned forward to ask permission to ask about my divorce (I indicated "divorced" on my profile instead of "separated"). She was taken aback when I informed her that I was still waiting for it to be finalized. I explained the situation, but, not wanting to break the cardinal rule of talking about exes, I asked her if she wanted the filtered short story or the dirty truth. She smiled and asked me to lay the truth on her, so I did. It turns out she was recently in a 9-month relationship with a divorced guy who turned out to be not as over his marriage as he let on. So she's very sensitive to that. Anyway, we put that to the side, had a great remainder of the evening (LOTS of laughter....we have the same sense of humor), and she enthusiastically agreed to get together again, scheduled for two weeks later. We texted flirtatiously over the next week, and she sent me a very cleavagey photo from a charity event she attended on the Saturday between our dates. I took that as a very positive sign. But this past week the demeanor of her texts changed, and when we met for dinner on Saturday she showed up dressed very conservatively, especially considering the way she was dressed at the charity event the weekend before (and sent me a photo to show it off). The whole night was just slightly off, the conversation wasn't as effortless (I was more nervous, since the stakes seemed higher now), and I was a little under-the-weather and feeling the effects of the non-drowsy medication that wasn't really non-drowsy. At the end of the night, I walked her to her car and she said she just wasn't feeling a connection. I was shocked that it went from great to "no connection" so quickly.

I know I ended up talking about my marriage more than she wanted. I think I took her interest in it on date #1 as permission to talk about it whenever I wanted. I didn't go out of my way to talk about it, but if she asked a question to which the true answer was somehow marriage/divorce related, I didn't filter that out. And when you're with someone for 16 years, a lot of questions have answers that somehow involve that other person. At some point during date #2, I was answering a question that caused me to mention something to do with the ex, and she cut me off, leaned over, put her hands on mine, and said "You don't have to talk about her anymore." I took the physical contact as a good sign, but maybe that wasn't the sign she was trying to send. She really feels I'm in rebound, and no amount of talking to her about the chronology of events was reducing her wariness.

So now I'm left wondering how I'm going to make a connection with someone else, if I couldn't manage to get through date #2 with a girl who I have so many common interests with (and some unusual ones, at that). And I wish I wouldn't have ignored e-mails and potential dates with girls I was less interested in to hold out for her, since now I made my "rookie" mistakes with the girl I most wanted to impress.

Ugh.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> It's been a while, and things are pretty much over. There have been a lot of highs and now a pretty big low that has me feeling almost as low as the months right after she left.
> 
> A settlement was reached. She's assuming all of her debt and not asking for any spousal support, which she surely could have received. But she knew she'd be embarrassed in court and wanted to avoid that. So all the papers are signed by us, filed with the court, and now just waiting for the judge to sign to make it official.
> 
> ...


Calcite,

You get through all dates without talking about other women.

She asks you what happened with your ex.... a pregnant pause.... "It's complicated"

It's like feeding a ball of string to a cat.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah, that was my instinct going in. But when she asked, I allowed the ball of string to unravel too easily. I think I felt compelled to let her know that my wife left me, and then I felt compelled to defend myself against what I perceived to be the stigma of having been on the receiving end of the divorce papers. That certainly contributed to my over-explanation -- not wanting to be suspected of having done something wrong to deserve it. Though during date #2, when I explained the reason for bringing some of the stuff up, she told me that I didn't have to defend myself against anything. Nice to know, but by that point I think it was too late.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

But I think my tone also changed when I spoke of it. Even when I was answering her direct questions about it early on, during date #1, I felt myself go from jovial to serious. I think ten years from now I won't be able to laugh while I recount the story, but that says nothing about the degree to which I'm past it and happy to be done with it. But I fear she might have read it differently.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yeah, that was my instinct going in. But when she asked, I allowed the ball of string to unravel too easily. I think I felt compelled to let her know that my wife left me, and then I felt compelled to defend myself against what I perceived to be the stigma of having been on the receiving end of the divorce papers. That certainly contributed to my over-explanation -- not wanting to be suspected of having done something wrong to deserve it. Though during date #2, when I explained the reason for bringing some of the stuff up, she told me that I didn't have to defend myself against anything. Nice to know, but by that point I think it was too late.


Shakespeare wrote...

"Methinks she doth protest too much"

The Bard was a wise man.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Blue,

Don't get down on yourself. Did you really expect to hit it off with your very first date? Consider it practice.

Also, as a rule of thumb for Match or other on-line dating sites...try to keep your first meet under an hour, and limit it to drinks/munchies and light conversation. Leave them wanting to know more about you. Women like mysterious guys.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Don't get down on yourself. Did you really expect to hit it off with your very first date?


That's sort of the thing. I DIDN'T. I really wanted to. But I went into the first date expecting to be too nervous to make any kind of good impression on her. And then 15 minutes in she leaned across the table and said "you're so much cuter than in your photos", and when I was walking her to her car and started to say something about getting together again, she cut me off and enthusiastically said "yes, I'll agree to it now! yes!". So I allowed my hopes to get way up, especially after she texted me that photo with no provocation. The high that took me to makes the deflated feeling a lot more acute.

Edit to Add: Certainly contributing to the feeling is the fact that my marriage came out of my first date. So it took me 36 years to experience rejection for the first time, and only 9 months later to get my second dose of it.



ThreeStrikes said:


> Also, as a rule of thumb for Match or other on-line dating sites...try to keep your first meet under an hour, and limit it to drinks/munchies and light conversation. Leave them wanting to know more about you. Women like mysterious guys.


That's probably a good idea. Date #1 was only planned to be dinner, but we were both having such a good time laughing that we walked next door for another drink and talked another two hours.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> That's sort of the thing. I DIDN'T. I really wanted to. But I went into the first date expecting to be too nervous to make any kind of good impression on her. And then 15 minutes in she leaned across the table and said "you're so much cuter than in your photos", and when I was walking her to her car and started to say something about getting together again, she cut me off and enthusiastically said "yes, I'll agree to it now! yes!". So I allowed my hopes to get way up, especially after she texted me that photo with no provocation. The high that took me to makes the deflated feeling a lot more acute.
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably a good idea. Date #1 was only planned to be dinner, but we were both having such a good time laughing that we walked next door for another drink and talked another two hours.


Busy guys are more attractive.

You have plans after the first meeting that you squeezed into your schedule. So, "I hate to cut this off, but I really have to go"


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

It's also possible that she has multiple guys in "the mix" right now, and another guy is tickling her fancy.

Don't take it personally, because you have no idea what she's looking for.

Just line up some more ladies.

And don't be surprised if she texts you again at a later date, after you've forgotten her.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> It's also possible that she has multiple guys in "the mix" right now, and another guy is tickling her fancy.


Yeah, I know she's more active on Match than me. I think all women are, just because there are so many more guys on Match than women. We talked about that some, and she complained about how weird all the dudes are. She knew that I wasn't planning on setting up dates with others, that I preferred a one-at-a-time approach, but that I fully understood that that's not how it's often done. At one point she texted me something like "I want you to go on dates". I don't know if that was a red flag, or if a girl feels better if she wins a competition rather than just being the first one picked. Who knows.



ThreeStrikes said:


> Don't take it personally, because you have no idea what she's looking for.


That's sort of why I'm disappointed about it, because I spend just as much time looking at profiles to determine if I match what they're looking for as I do determining if they match what I'm looking for. That's why I'm kicking myself for perhaps screwing up what could have been a good thing. But ultimately, despite all of the things we had in common, maybe that one misalignment -- my recent/pending divorce and her sensitivity to it because of a bad experience --was just too big a barrier.



> And don't be surprised if she texts you again at a later date, after you've forgotten her.


That would be awesome. But I may have creeped her out, because the very next day I accidentally "liked" her profile on Match again. Ugh! I was trying to remove her profile from my search results, and clicked on the wrong thing. There are trip wires all over that website. I felt like a major ass, and it took an insistent female friend to convince me NOT to e-mail her to explain that it was an accident.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yeah, I know she's more active on Match than me. I think all women are, just because there are so many more guys on Match than women. We talked about that some, and she complained about how weird all the dudes are. She knew that I wasn't planning on setting up dates with others, that I preferred a one-at-a-time approach, but that I fully understood that that's not how it's often done. At one point she texted me something like "I want you to go on dates". I don't know if that was a red flag, or if a girl feels better if she wins a competition rather than just being the first one picked. Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Calcite,

Have you ever had confidence with women?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueCalcite said:


> Yeah, I know she's more active on Match than me. I think all women are, just because there are so many more guys on Match than women. We talked about that some, and she complained about how weird all the dudes are. She knew that I wasn't planning on setting up dates with others, that I preferred a one-at-a-time approach, but that I fully understood that that's not how it's often done. At one point she texted me something like "I want you to go on dates". I don't know if that was a red flag, or if a girl feels better if she wins a competition rather than just being the first one picked. Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On-line dating is a #'s game.

You will soon find that the "profile" is a joke. People can write anything.

Keep at it, you'll figure it out. And most importantly, have fun!


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Calcite,
> 
> Have you ever had confidence with women?


Around a woman that I know nothing about? No. I feel like I do when I'm around women who I know appreciate the qualities I offer. That's why I was surprisingly effective on date #1. She even leaned in at one point to say, surprisingly and appreciatively (I think), "you don't strike me as a guy just out looking to sow his wild oats". At some point she also caught me a little off-guard by "outing" me as not like the guys who are "looking for their next piece of p----". Had I just sipped my beer, she would have been excusing herself to the ladies room to squeegee it off her blouse. So, yeah, I was confident around her for one date and for a couple weeks of texting. Then things got weird and I panicked.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

And keep in mind that, from the age of 20 until 36, I was committed to a woman and purposely didn't interact with other women. Out of respect to my "devoted" wife.


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## AFPhoenix (Dec 24, 2013)

Blue, I'm right there with you in the dating game. Live and learn. It's been a long time since I was in the "game", but now I'm telling the coach to put me in. 

Have fun with it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Around a woman that I know nothing about? No. I feel like I do when I'm around women who I know appreciate the qualities I offer.


The Layguide: How to Seduce Women More Beautiful Than You Ever Dreamed Possible No Matter What You Look Like or How Much You Make: Tony Clink: 9780806526027: Amazon.com: Books

Let's do away with that roadblock.

Click on this link and start learning.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The Layguide: How to Seduce Women More Beautiful Than You Ever Dreamed Possible No Matter What You Look Like or How Much You Make: Tony Clink: 9780806526027: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Let's do away with that roadblock.
> 
> Click on this link and start learning.


Thanks, I went ahead and ordered it. But if its lessons focus on how to get a random woman to go home with me, then my interests diverge fairly strongly from its teachings. I assume I'll learn something that will help me put my best foot forward on a date with a girl I hope to establish a relationship with, and not just with girls looking to be bedded by a smooth-talking guy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> Thanks, I went ahead and ordered it. But if its lessons focus on how to get a random woman to go home with me, then my interests diverge fairly strongly from its teachings. I assume I'll learn something that will help me put my best foot forward on a date with a girl I hope to establish a relationship with, and not just with girls looking to be bedded by a smooth-talking guy.


Read it with an eye for what makes a man attractive to women.

(Talking about ex's isn't on the list)


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Read it with an eye for what makes a man attractive to women.
> 
> (Talking about ex's isn't on the list)


:thumbup:


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

And the Nostradamus award goes to:



torn2012 said:


> It's high time big blue started letting his own actions dictate his emotional state. There's someone out there who is a much better life partner. Someone who will put your interests first. *Don't scare that person off* by being hung up on someone who deliberately put your health below her desire to have dogs on her bed! Someone who lied about her level of debt despite being very well supported by her husband. Someone who would have left you in a very cowardly fashion had you not been suspicious of her behavior!!!


Wish I'd gone back and read through this thread a week ago. Though, again, I'm not hung up on the past, but failed badly at recognizing how it looks to somebody else. And with each attempt to ease her mind, I lodged my foot further into my mouth.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BlueCalcite said:


> And the Nostradamus award goes to:
> 
> 
> 
> Wish I'd gone back and read through this thread a week ago. Though, again, I'm not hung up on the past, but failed badly at recognizing how it looks to somebody else. And with each attempt to ease her mind, I lodged my foot further into my mouth.


Now, forgive yourself (the hardest part)

And, move forward.

Read my signature.

Don't wallow about a bad date the way you do about a bad marriage.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Conrad hits the nail on the head every time. Let it go Blue.

This need to understand through thorough analysis seems to be written into your DNA. While this trait serves you well in some circumstances it can also hinder progress in others. 

You need to fight the urge to continually go over the events of the past. An initial assessment is useful for the purpose of learning from the experience. But any further analysis really only serves as a form of self torment. No amount of self inflicted torture is going to change the past, but wallowing in it can adversely influence your future.

Let it go man.

Who's to say you won't find an even better match than this last one?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

torn2012 said:


> Conrad hits the nail on the head every time. Let it go Blue.
> 
> This need to understand through thorough analysis seems to be written into your DNA. While this trait serves you well in some circumstances it can also hinder progress in others.
> 
> ...


I'm a scientist, so analytical thinking is built-in. As to why I have to apply it to every part of my life -- I don't know. I'd have to analyze the possible reasons and get back to you.







torn2012 said:


> Who's to say you won't find an even better match than this last one?


I'm smart enough to know that an online profile only reveals part of the story, and that there are better matches out there _somewhere_. But I've been pretty discriminating when looking at profiles. For one, I'm an atheist, and that eliminates about 50% of the candidates who indicate that faith is important to them. And then I eliminate anybody who is a smoker. And then I eliminate anybody who gives off even the slightest hint of having any of my ex's traits. Within 50 miles, that leaves about a dozen girls to choose from, and she was, far and away, the one I trusted most, identified with most, and who I was the most confident that I matched what she was looking for. Except, of course, her wariness of recently-divorced guys, which I couldn't predict from her profile.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Ugh. So eight days ago I began e-mailing then texting with a seemingly great girl on Match. By Monday she enthusiastically agreed to meet this weekend, and we've been texting playfully ever since. Thursday I closed on the loan to buy my ex out of her half of the house, which, aside from the QDRO that is still being finalized for my IRA, was basically the last of my nightmare. I went to work yesterday on top of the world, and by 11:30 I was having the news broken to me by our president and vice-president that they had to lay me off, after eleven years. I'm still in that surreal state, so it hasn't completely hit me. I think I'm letting my spirits be buoyed by my date and all of the optimism surrounding it. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing, I don't know....

The irony is that the girl I'm meeting tomorrow seemed very self-conscious about telling me that she is only getting part-time hours as a lab tech in one of those satellite ER's (she has a BS in Clinical Laboratory Science) and, though she owns her own home, her parents are living with her to help with expenses (she was previously full-time). I was all prepared to ease her mind about how I don't care how much money she makes, or what her living arrangement is, as long as she lives within her means, etc. (she knows the basics of my story; she asked! I didn't offer!). Anyway, I don't feel like such an authority figure on the unimportance of money now that I'm the unemployed bum in the "relationship".

But she knows I was laid off, and she insists that it doesn't matter and she still wants to meet. So who knows, maybe this will be a good test of whether she's really interested in me or if she was only interested in my education, good job, and presumed good income.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Don't get ahead of yourself.

One day at a time.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Don't get ahead of yourself.
> 
> One day at a time.


Sorry to hear that.
Well today my car's engine caught on fire it's totaled but I'm okay and no one else's car or property was damaged.
Oh well.


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## torn2012 (Mar 23, 2012)

Previously you described your job as uninspiring and miserable among other things. Your employer may have just done you a great favor. 

About 18 months ago my employer made around 120 of my colleagues redundant. At first it was depressing. Most were concerned by where their next pay check would come from, angry at management for the decision and the timing of it (just before Christmas). 

After the initial grief some started to see it as an opportunity to find something they might enjoy doing. To this day many have. In fact, very few of the people I worked closely with are worse off.

You've been through a lot of changes over the last year. Hopefully this new change brings you closer to the life you really want.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Agree with Torn, sometimes getting laid off gives us the push we need to move on to better stuff. Fear and inertia play a role is staying stuck with something because we have it, not because we want it.

As to the girl, just enjoy the date. Don't overthink who's employed, etc. If she has an issue, she'll cancel or not go out again. Just have fun.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Story continues here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-a...o-i-attract-apparently-mentally-unstable.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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