# Feminist Father



## Deejo

Everybody loves a catchy t-shirt ... Nice message to boot.

https://shine.yahoo.com/team-mom/-feminist-father--shirt-worn-by-nj-dad-goes-viral-163733847.html


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## John Lee

5. She makes the rules, but I enforce them when called for backup


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## Hope1964

Why is an attitude like that called 'feminist'? Shouldn't everyone make the rules for their own body, whether they're male or female?

Hopefully I am not stepping into a snake pit here.


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## Deejo

Hope1964 said:


> Why is an attitude like that called 'feminist'? Shouldn't everyone make the rules for their own body, whether they're male or female?
> 
> Hopefully I am not stepping into a snake pit here.


Oh yes you did ...

I think it's the concept of empowering our daughters. 
No dad wants to see his daughter defining her self, measuring her self esteem by, or having any doubts about what is right for her, when challenged by the expectations of a young man.

As for their mothers, that's a completely different story.


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## Faithful Wife

It is a feminist statement because women don't have full sexual agency across the board yet which is something feminists and sex positive people are working to correct.

On Being Female and Sexual Agency | Psychology Today

"We are still living in a world where young girls are pledging away their sexual agency to their fathers, in a world where a woman has no sexual agency inside her own culture, religion or family. Where women are still making sexual choices based on the needs of their partners outside of their own desires."


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## John Lee

A lot of people say "everyone should be equal so why should there be feminism?" But there is feminism because everyone is not treated equally. Everyone should make the rules for their own body, but it's women who more often are not allowed to.


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## SimplyAmorous

Myself & husband would get more of a chuckle or agree with these...










I trust our daughter will be very careful in choosing the men she allows into her life.. so we'd never wear a T-shirt like this.. but had I seen a T-shirt like this on a Father, we'd be more likely to give him a high 5... (great conversation piece)....we'd feel we had more in common with that type of person...over the feminist T-shirt guy .. 

Even our sons would prefer this sort of welcoming in comparison, as to them, it shows they really care what type of men are taking their daughter out..(and I assume all of this is teenage years).. as the Feminist T-shirt man's daughter was 20 yrs old ...I read the article..she can do what she wants.. 

It's funny, the 1st time our 3rd son went to his Gf's house, her dad was on the porch cleaning his GUN.. we got a great laugh out of that, whether it was intentional or not.. we loved it !


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## QueenofEverything

Hope1964 said:


> *Why is an attitude like that called 'feminist'?* Shouldn't everyone make the rules for their own body, whether they're male or female?
> 
> Hopefully I am not stepping into a snake pit here.


Because anything that has to do with women being treated and respected like human beings is deemed as "feminism" even though that's not true as feminism oppresses women.


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## Hope1964

Well I guess I missed that memo. Interesting.

I've never paid much attention to the whole 'feminism' thing. Maybe because I was raised with the assumption that I WAS equal to boys in pretty much every way. Superior in many ways


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## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> It is a feminist statement because women don't have full sexual agency across the board yet which is something feminists and sex positive people are working to correct.
> 
> On Being Female and Sexual Agency | Psychology Today
> 
> "We are still living in a world where young girls are pledging away their sexual agency to their fathers, in a world where a woman has no sexual agency inside her own culture, religion or family. Where women are still making sexual choices based on the needs of their partners outside of their own desires."



It is a "nice" thing to do if a spouse ( husband or wife ) considers his spouses sexual needs outside of their own. Of course you do not have to...


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## QueenofEverything

Hope1964 said:


> Well I guess I missed that memo. Interesting.
> 
> I've never paid much attention to the whole 'feminism' thing. Maybe because I was raised with the assumption that I WAS equal to boys in pretty much every way. Superior in many ways


/beginning rant that goes slightly off topic/

Yes, but equal does not mean "the same" when it comes to this topic. Nor should men and women see life as being in competition with one another. We need to learn how to take our best assets and work together. That's what many seem to miss, and that causes issues that are not necessary. 

Shouting from the rooftops and villianizing men while crying about it doesn't erase biology. Men and women are not the same, and they never will be. However, men and women are both equally deserving of respect. I hope to pass on that message to my children. 

/end rant/


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## TiggyBlue

Pretty much how my what my parent's taught me growing up, 
sounds good to me.


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## Faithful Wife

Lol!


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## John Lee

QueenofEverything said:


> Because anything that has to do with women being treated and respected like human beings is deemed as "feminism" even though that's not true as feminism oppresses women.


Obvious troll and probable male.


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## NobodySpecial

Hope1964 said:


> Why is an attitude like that called 'feminist'? Shouldn't everyone make the rules for their own body, whether they're male or female?
> 
> Hopefully I am not stepping into a snake pit here.


I guess activism is necessary when inequality exists. Would that there had never been a need for the civil rights movement. But there was. The goal is to not need activism because everyone is treated equally and not based on arbitrary stuff.


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## NobodySpecial

QueenofEverything said:


> Because anything that has to do with women being treated and respected like human beings is deemed as "feminism" even though that's not true as feminism oppresses women.


Oh! Do share!


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## coffee4me

I had never heard the term Feminist Father until I read this article on Father's Day. Can't say I necessarily agree with everything it says but it was very interesting. 

Feminist Fathers' Day 2014: #feministfathersday


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## Deejo

*Re: Re: Feminist Father*



Faithful Wife said:


> "We are still living in a world where young girls are pledging away their sexual agency to their fathers, in a world where a woman has no sexual agency inside her own culture, religion or family. Where women are still making sexual choices based on the needs of their partners outside of their own desires."


I'm sure that comes as news to the father's and husbands whose wives want nothing to do with them in the bedroom.


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## Faithful Wife

I'm sorry, what does my quote (from the linked article I posted) have to do with sexless marriages?


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## Faithful Wife

By the way, if you read the article, the woman who wrote it, Pamela Madsen, is a sex educator and sex work advocate. Please don't try to conflate the sexless marriage issue with her article about sexual agency. Not everything is about sexual mismatches, sometimes things are about what the article said they were about.

Her book: http://www.amazon.com/Shameless-Dit...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1605291757


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## that_girl

This furthers my thinking in being with women only.

I don't want to pledge away anything to anyone.


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## SimplyAmorous

coffee4me said:


> I had never heard the term Feminist Father until I read this article on Father's Day. Can't say I necessarily agree with everything it says but it was very interesting.
> 
> Feminist Fathers' Day 2014: #feministfathersday


Interesting indeed.. I would be curious to hear if the Feminists on this thread sees these views as balanced or more of a radical slant??

No matter what I read on Feminism, I always ask myself the same thing over & over & over...what about teaching our sons Integrity, Respect....treating others like the golden Rule.. yet still there is obvious differences in the Genders.. we can all see this.

Why can't this be celebrated.. I just see these things more of a "values" issue over a "Women vs Man" issue.. I don't feel all men have some need to conform to this list of 50 things, this depends on the dynamics and lifestyle of the couple.. throwing the label feminist on this - just puts a sour taste in my mouth....

Thought I'd list some of the 50 ....as the article says ..(quote)...."We believe that the key lies in changing masculinity - to raise boys to feel cared for, to be aware of their own feelings, to see women as people like themselves and not objects, to hold men accountable for their behavior and reward them for demonstrating compassion and empathy.".. 

My thoughts are .... the "Changing masculinity " seems misplaced here ...like it is suggesting that masculinity is against these things.. NOT IN OUR HOUSE full of 5 sons and 1 Father.....seriously??

It goes on to say ....this is about "making a commitment to take action against patriarchy and misogyny in real life."...

I picked some of these out...(my thoughts in blue)



> *2*. Strive to do more than half of the labor of raising a kid, building a family and maintaining a home. This is part of living our feminist values in our family and being a good role model for our kids and their friends. What is the "more than half" - how is this fair , equal and balanced ?
> 
> *3.* Do your kid's hair, cook, clean and/or other responsibilities that "women" usually do that are also intimate bonding experiences. I see nothing wrong with my doing the hair, the cooking , the cleaning while my H works ..and when he comes home concentrating on the MANLY tasks that require more Strength or danger (is that wrong to say??)...Should us women start climbing on the roofs, changing transmissions, using the chain saw while dad is inside changing the diapers.. Nahh... we like our roles as they are, I see no need to change , and my H would rebuff if I even suggested those things....
> 
> *4. *Pick flowers for your little boy and fix stuff around the house with your little girl. I think it would be better for Dad to take the boys fishing , or throwing a ball around...over picking them flowers ..I don't even care for sports but I see nothing wrong with the way it is NOW. Boys need to do something with that excess Testosterone in their youth anyway!!
> 
> *7.* Encourage the boys in your life to enter the worlds created by girls during play, and encourage them to invite girls into theirs. The invitation is the key. Stop them if they try to impose their worlds. I don't think boys would be all that interested in Barbie Dolls..
> 
> *12*. Read books about feminism, to your kids and to your self. Oh my... Again.. why books on Feminism.. why not books on what is important in life...how we treat other people... having self awareness, teaching about integrity, being a person of their word, to do no harm to those in their path...
> 
> 
> *13*. Say, "Everyone gets to choose for their own body" often enough that your kids think of it as one of your catch phrases. Really not sure what all this entails.. much BODY talk among feminists...honing in on these things all the time...We should all teach our children to respect others boundaries, this includes our bodies.. of course..
> 
> *14. *Use "feminism," "patriarchy," "misogyny," "sexism" and related words in your everyday conversations with kids, and take time to listen to their use of those words. They have brilliant insights about the oppression they see. Please someone confirm this is Radical with me [email protected]#
> 
> Really... EVERY DAY USE THESE WORDS TO OUR KIDS..
> 
> Again... speaking honesty, integrity, cultivating a self awareness of our actions .... now this would not hurt a child .. .. this is over the top ..this sounds like a Witch hunt - the smallest things may be seen as misogyny, or sexism!
> 
> 
> *16*. Commit to eliminating violence, aggression and force with women and children. Again, this goes back to teaching children about healthy boundaries, to respect others....not bully in school, etc...having Fathers as good Role models is a plus....
> 
> *17*. Teach your kids about *mansplaining* and male entitlement and why it hurts all of us. New word for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Urban Dictionary: mansplaining
> 
> *1.* Originally, this term was used to describe boorish men who felt the need to "correct" what a woman said, even on topics that the man didn't know anything about.
> 
> However, the term quickly degenerated into a get-out-of-jail-free card used by angry women when a man dares to point out even the most blatant error.
> 
> *2* A sexist term used by misandrist women to disrespect, belittle and devalue the opinion of her male peers in an attempt to make herself appear smarter or better in comparison.
> 
> This is common among mixed gender discussions and debates. The term mansplaining is commonly thrown around by those wish to turn the argument into a battle of the sexes or just lack any knowledge or means od adding value to the discussion and wish to devalue the input of other's (in this case males) who are involved in said discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I see this as silly.. whomever has more experience with a topic or has lived it -and if they are respectable, shows give & take in a conversation....does it really hurt to listen, even if we don't agree.. we can still learn..I don't agree with either sex shutting the other down personally.
> 
> *18*. Teach them about male privilege at an early age. Teach them to use their privilege in the service of others until the time they are ready to attempt to eradicate it. Not sure what they are getting at?
Click to expand...


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## SimplyAmorous

> *20*. Once a day or once a week, talk about an example you saw of patriarchy or sexism. Yes , just FOCUS on all the woman haters.. I would never raise my children like this.. why not have deep discussions with our children to what they see in society, in the news.. ask how they feel, discuss the various sides of any issue.. without bringing gender into it at all ??
> 
> *21*. Don't shame kids of any gender for being girly - feminine gender expression is as valuable and wonderful as any other! Read books like My Princess Boy to help normalize and celebrate boys who wear dresses and embrace feminine gender expressions. While "tomboys" are generally accepted, it's good for all kids to see that boys like girlie things too. Ok....here is the Book.... My Princess Boy:
> 
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> 
> Would love to hear some thoughts on this ! Seriously .. nope, we won't be celebrating our sons wearing dresses ! OMG... oh Yeah, women just eat those types of men up...
> 
> *22.* Don't let your kids hear you make generalizations about people based on gender. "It's a boy thing" and "It's a girl thing" harm kids of all genders. If and when you do say it, be honest and compassionate with yourself, saying something like, "Why did I say that; is that actually true; I don't think so?" Sorry I ENJOY those differences, and they are NEVER a put down when I speak of them.. it may be for some comic relief at times.. I see the male gender as weaker than us in some areas, but it's endearing somehow.. and It's not a put down on me when men speak about us in ways.. there is always a fine line I suppose.. just as anything CAN GO TOO FAR, including feminism !
> 
> *24*. Do not assign female gender/sex traits to inanimate objects. Your car is a car. Do not refer to it as "her" or "she" or any other anthropomorphized designation. I guess I don't see the big deal, we had a Guy friend who called his Beloved car "Christine"... SO WHAT ....not getting how this is hurting women at all?
> 
> *27*. Make a point to ask if there are changing tables in the men's restrooms everywhere you go. I don't think the majority of men would care where to change the baby --if it needs done, he'll get it done..Sometimes men are pretty funny, another thing I love about them... Even I would.. no changing table.. so what...I'll do it over here.. away from passerby eyes....
> 
> *28.* Speak up when you see unwanted tickling. I Don't get it ??
> 
> *29*. Teach consent every day. Teach your child that we need permission to touch each other's bodies. Raise our daughters to be safety conscious and to have a healthy self-esteem against the onslaught of sexism and misogyny. Raise our sons to promote consent culture. hey, this one I agree with....I just wouldn't call it Misogny or sexism, I'd just warn her of OVERLY HORNY YOUNG MEN....I don't see that it's a blight on them in any way...they just happen to think with their male appendage too often (and I doubt many would be offended by me saying this - are you men?).....she just needs to be careful!!
> 
> *30*. Make a plan for how you are going to teach your kids about rape. Men, have conversations with other dads about this and ask them what they're thinking of doing. Be ready to share about why you think it's so important that we talk with all our kids about it. Again, our goal is to create a culture of men working together to support each other to end misogyny and generate feminist power. Not sure how Femisnist POWER is going to stop a psychopath.. but Ok... Better to teach our daughters to be very careful in what type of crowd she hangs with....to stay in groups, not walk down dark alleys alone.. this is just as important for her safety.
> 
> *32*. When you do something wrong, let your kids see you own up to it rather than blaming someone else. Integrity 101 :iagree:
> 
> *33*. Don't argue or get defensive when women talk about their experiences. Is this taught both ways ??
> 
> *34.* Listen when women are talking. The best of men always do!
> 
> *36*. Sex positive is a family value. When sex comes up, be open, honest and positive.
> 
> Can read about that here = Sex-positive movement - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sex-positive feminism, also known as pro-sex feminism, sex-radical feminism, or sexually liberal feminism, is a movement that began in the early 1980s. Some became involved in the sex-positive feminist movement in response to efforts by anti-pornography feminists, such as Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan and Dorchen Leidholdt, to put pornography at the center of a feminist explanation of women's oppression (McElroy, 1995). This period of intense debate and acrimony between sex-positive and anti-pornography feminists during the early 1980s is often referred to as the "Feminist Sex Wars". Other sex-positive feminists became involved not in opposition to other feminists but in direct response to what they saw as patriarchal control of sexuality. Authors who have advocated sex-positive feminism include Ellen Willis, Susie Bright, Patrick Califia, Gayle Rubin, Carol Queen, Avedon Carol, Tristan Taormino, Diana Cage, Nina Hartley, and Betty Dodson, who could be regarded as the grandmother of the movement.
> 
> 
> 
> So if one is outside of these views, those would be the "Sex Negatives"?? I'm still learning !
> 
> 
> *50.* Men, be expressive with your love and tenderness. Strive to be emotionally open and fluent in love, appreciation and gratitude. Patriarchy teaches men to be fiercely competitive with other men and to be oblivious to the contributions of women. Naming and speaking our love, appreciation and gratitude helps counter this. Hey ..this sounds like a Nice Guy.. Romantic, very loving.. most women reject those and go after the competitive arrogant JOCK in high school....& the high paid CEOs ...yeah.. right.. this will do men lots of favors..
Click to expand...


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## Wolf1974

Had to chime in here as the father of two daughters who are not near dating age yet but I'm sure that 25 will come soon enough. 

As a police officer I worry even more I than the average father about them dating and safety. I don't envy them having me as their father when it comes to dating and boys as I could careless about embarrassing them. My only job is to make sure they live to 18, graduate from high school and make sure they aren't pregnant at that time. If I can achieve that in today's society and working against their mother on the dating issues it will be a miracle but I never back down from what's the right.

I have though been dreading the dating thing which is sure to come....at 25... So I asked around some of my colleagues on tips to use to get the point across to the little bags of hormones that come caking. One guy had the best saying I ever heard and he had three daughters. He said he would sit quietly as the boy came and introduced himself to mom and his other daughters. Then when the boy was leaving he would say hey I have something for you and would throw him a bullet. Then he would say if you **** up and my daughter gets hurt in any way the next one you don't get to see coming. Said he never had an issue with any of his daughters and dating. I love it lol 


When they are 25 of course


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## Deejo

coffee4me said:


> I had never heard the term Feminist Father until I read this article on Father's Day. Can't say I necessarily agree with everything it says but it was very interesting.
> 
> Feminist Fathers' Day 2014: #feministfathersday


I read this. And read SimplyAmorous' reply.

I'd like to think these gentlemen mean well. 

But as for the outcome they want, and redefining masculinity?

No.

I remember seeing the 'Princess Boy' family on TV. 
That was over 2 years ago. Family has completely fallen off the radar since. Even the webpages last update is from 2012. The child was 5, it's entirely possible that much like my very own daughter ... dressing up like a princess just isn't what it used to be.

I believe it's our job as parents to love and support our kids. Sometimes that can be challenging if supporting them can also potentially mean that they will be subject to judgement and/or ridicule.

I know. I try very hard to coach my son as far as what are good things to try and talk about with peers vs. the things he may want to talk about, that virtually anyone else, isn't going to have a clue what he means. He's high functioning autistic. I have had to find a way to address his question of why his sister has so many friends and people want to talk to her, and why he doesn't have any, and nobody wants to talk to him.

It can be rough.

But some of the things on the list created by that male author? Really left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Omego

SimplyAmorous said:


> Myself & husband would get more of a chuckle or agree with these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I trust our daughter will be very careful in choosing the men she


SA, LOVE that shirt. I'd wear it myself and I'm the mother.... soo true (except for the going back to jail part). LOL!


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## TiggyBlue

Deejo said:


> But some of the things on the list created by that male author? Really left a bad taste in my mouth.


IMO the father feminist day link is quit extreme, there was a couple of things I agree with but on the whole it seemed pretty intense.


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## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> I read this. And read SimplyAmorous' reply.
> 
> I'd like to think these gentlemen mean well.
> 
> But as for the outcome they want, and redefining masculinity?
> 
> No.
> 
> I remember seeing the 'Princess Boy' family on TV.
> That was over 2 years ago. Family has completely fallen off the radar since. Even the webpages last update is from 2012. The child was 5, it's entirely possible that much like my very own daughter ... dressing up like a princess just isn't what it used to be.
> 
> I believe it's our job as parents to love and support our kids. Sometimes that can be challenging if supporting them can also potentially mean that they will be subject to judgement and/or ridicule.
> 
> I know. I try very hard to coach my son as far as what are good things to try and talk about with peers vs. the things he may want to talk about, that virtually anyone else, isn't going to have a clue what he means. He's high functioning autistic. I have had to find a way to address his question of why his sister has so many friends and people want to talk to her, and why he doesn't have any, and nobody wants to talk to him.
> 
> It can be rough.
> 
> But some of the things on the list created by that male author? Really left a bad taste in my mouth.


I think you're being overly generous here Dejoo.

I don't think that author meant well at all.

I've read the article posted and a few more like it in times past. I've even read a few articles across at " the good men project" in times past , and my conclusion is that these people hate the masculine stereotype.

They don't like men.

If the genders were reversed and the opening paragraph read
" _we believe that the key lies in changing women_ " , instead if masculinity , it would be rightly called misogyny.

There is a general , common underlying tone in all of them.

One that says " Feminism is good , but masculinity is bad " , hence the _" good men , bad men_" context in which they frame their arguments.
So in order to " fix men " they must first renounce their traditional " masculinity privilege ", because it is inimical to feminist interests and gender equality. Right there is where the sophistry comes in.

All human beings are born equal with privileges that are unique to their gender. Stripping one gender of its privilege to create " equality" is like saying that wealthy people should stripped of their hard earned money in order to create a more "equal "society.

It's a pseudo Marxist approach to a problem created by accepting set of beliefs riddled with half truths and fallacies.


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## Caribbean Man

Omego said:


> SA, LOVE that shirt. I'd wear it myself and I'm the mother.... soo true (except for the going back to jail part). LOL!


:iagree:
I've seen another one a woman sent me on Facebook ,
" Ten Rules For Dating My Son."



Speaking from a perspective of gender equality, I think the she rocks. 
I think the real message behind these rules is that it doesn't matter the gender , parents ought to protect their kids from bad people.
There is good and bad in everyone.


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## SimplyAmorous

Omego said:


> *SA, LOVE that shirt. I'd wear it myself and I'm the mother.... soo true (except for the going back to jail part). LOL*!


Here is the one for the Mother.. in regards to her son... and No, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER wear something like this.. (it would come off completely obnoxious & depending on the woman, I just wouldn't trust she'd have the sense of humor that men have in this regard)...Could turn out I'd have a Black mark on my forehead for life putting something like this on- if the relationship lasted....










Hopefully we've instilled in them ENOUGH what to look for in a woman, that compatibility too...that she will make a fine wife, Mother & is deeply in love WITH HIM...not settling... not looking to what he earns more so or something like that. .....

Our sons are more on the Gentle side and treat women like ladies and sad to say, in today's society I just don't see that as much of a plus... the vast majority seem to have to have their play time with those who toss them away... before they look to the good guys...


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## Omego

SimplyAmorous said:


> Here is the one for the Mother.. in regards to her son... and No, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER wear something like this..


Yes, I wouldn't wear it either but I'd be thinking it very, very hard. 

It's up to us to educate our sons and daughters correctly so that they can make good life decisions... obviously easier said than done!


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## Cosmos

Deejo said:


> Everybody loves a catchy t-shirt ... Nice message to boot.
> 
> https://shine.yahoo.com/team-mom/-feminist-father--shirt-worn-by-nj-dad-goes-viral-163733847.html


I don't see this as at all feminist, and it's just sad that what should be obvious has to be 'stated' at all. If we rear our sons and daughters properly, they will know these things without having to have it spelled out to them.

The same goes for the mother's T-shirt. It's all about boundaries and respect for others.


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## Fenix

There is a lot of good stuff in that list but also a lot of things are taken too far. Basically, as I read through the list, I saw it as an attempt to make our children (esp. sons) aware of the discrepancies in which men and women are viewed in society. And these differences are real and harmful. It is also an attempt to reclaim the word feminism (as well as patriarch and misogyny) from the sullying that has gone on thanks to the Rush Limbaughs of the world. 

The guys are also clearly aligned with the LGBT movement (which is fine in my opinion) with their insistence on exposing our children to princess boy etc. I do not have a problem with exposing our children to all of the different aspects of gender.

I think it is great when boys see their mothers camping and fishing and cooking and sewing. I think it is equally great when our children see their fathers caring for their families, by grooming and cuddling their kids, as well as teaching them how to build rockets etc.

There should be no activities separated by gender, only by interest.

And yeah, I feel it is wrong to refer to *girly* things, or insult by saying stop acting like a girl and similar comments. Invariably, these are used as insults in our society. When they are neutral, I won't have such a problem with it, but they are never neutral.

Finally, male privilege is a very real thing. Just like white privilege. Just because you don't acknowledge it doesn't mean it isn't there. Being cognizant of it is important...what is the phrase? With great power comes great responsibility.

OK, now really finally, the first t-shirt is fine and is a direct response to the rape situation in our country. One in four? come one. That is an epidemic. The second two are eyeroll worthy, funny in a cringing sort of way, but as a response to the first?...just obnoxious.


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## Entropy3000

coffee4me said:


> I had never heard the term Feminist Father until I read this article on Father's Day. Can't say I necessarily agree with everything it says but it was very interesting.
> 
> Feminist Fathers' Day 2014: #feministfathersday


This is wrong on so many levels. Indeed bring children up to have proper values and respect others. Men can certainly embrace their masculinity and NOT treat women with disrespect. This IS a fallacy to say the issue is all with men and masculinity alone. While sprinkled with statements I can endorse I see it in agregation as a diatribe. I don't care how many good thoughts are sprinled into that steaming pile. Too many agendas there. Activism has its place certainly. There can be a thin line between activism and oppression. So let's not rush to mentally castrate men.
Men need to embrace their masculinity. Not let others define who they are. Again some good thoughts in the mix. Too much like religion. You know. The opiate of society.

But the term masculinity like the term feminism is defined differently by many people. I see it like the discussion about yoga pants.  We argue about two completely different pictures of things. This is why in serious conflict resolution you have to come to a common definition. But even with the same picture in front of us we all can see different aspects. There is yin and yang in everything. It is also like that famous picture of the young Vietnamese girl near the end of the war. That picture evokes never ending emotional and intellectual responses. It is seen from so many perspectives simultaneously. And yet even that pales in comparison to this very topic.

On the T-shirt. It is only partly right. The parents, Dad included need to be involved here. Being responsible for young people under the age of 18 is hard enough. Guess who deals with the fallout? When someone reaches 18 they get to make all thier own decisions. This is just one aspect of the T-shirt but it is the one that I take exception with.

Look, I had a horrible childhood in many ways. But a 13 year old girl cannot be left to call all the shots. I do not want to rehash my childhood. Both my parents are gone now. I was brought up in an oppressive way. Cared for on many levels and IMO abused on others. There were some good values presented but suffice it to say I was not brought up with any male priviledge at all. Actually in hindsight it was quite cruel. There is much inbetween how I was brought up and the other extremes.

All this said, over the years I have had some rather deep discussions offline with women wanting / willing to open up abut it. AND, I am appalled ( not strong enough ), and saddened and angered by much of this. So indeed we have inherited the world and are responsible for the ongoing legacy. I cannot relate in any way to those men. I am offended to be lumped in with them. I get the "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" view. But I choose how I do it. I get to do that. 

As freudian as it all is, you can't have my guns or my balls. But I will be gone soon enough. Is the world a better place this day than it was the day I was born? Or have we just changed who the victims are? I just don't know. But I do know that people continue to be manipulated from all sides.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sorry, what does my quote (from the linked article I posted) have to do with sexless marriages?


Nothing. Unless one has been, or finds themselves in a sexless marriage, and wondering about the concept of agency.

Read the link, read the book overview, read her blog. Presuming you have read the book, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but she sounds much more geared towards providing insight and support to women that have have already run the gauntlet of marriage, motherhood, and mid-life. 
Don't know how much of her sex educator piece she cross-pollinates with her fertility educator piece.

I do want my daughter to have, be aware of, and comfortable with agency, and specifically sexual agency, long before she says "I do ..." to anyone.


----------



## that_girl

I can't stand those shirts. I really cringe with the son one. Gross.

Maybe the mom should date him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo, sexual agency includes a wife who doesn't want to, won't or can't have sex with her husband. Not all cases of sexless marriage are the same. We don't have to demonize all wives that "don't give it up" to their husbands as unfeeling shrews who are out to make their man miserable.

And whether anyone likes it or not, your 13 y/o daughters DO have agency over their bodies and some of them will choose to be sexual with their bodies at various levels.

Honest question: if pregnancy were not an issue at all, and if broken hearts and emotional pain weren't either...would you still have an issue with your 13 y/o mashing with another age appropriate person? Is it really just the "consequences" of sexual behavior that you are worried about for your daughters, or do you really just not like the thought of her experiencing sexual pleasure?


----------



## John Lee

A person can simultaneously be aware of their sexual agency and recognize that lack of sex can be bad for a marriage. I don't see what the problem is there.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo, sexual agency includes a wife who doesn't want to, won't or can't have sex with her husband. Not all cases of sexless marriage are the same. We don't have to demonize all wives that "don't give it up" to their husbands as unfeeling shrews who are out to make their man miserable.
> 
> And whether anyone likes it or not, your 13 y/o daughters DO have agency over their bodies and some of them will choose to be sexual with their bodies at various levels.
> 
> Honest question: if pregnancy were not an issue at all, and if broken hearts and emotional pain weren't either...would you still have an issue with your 13 y/o mashing with another age appropriate person? Is it really just the "consequences" of sexual behavior that you are worried about for your daughters, *or do you really just not like the thought of her experiencing sexual pleasure?*


There are consequencies to everything. 

I find the bolded a fallacy and more than creepy. Not the sexual pleasure but your conclusion.

I have great understanding of the other extreme from personal experience. It is not the sexual pleasure that is at issue. If you are going to allow this then 13 year olds should support themselves and be allowed to marry. There is a needed transition. Perhaps it comes down to the attitude that sex is just sex.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo, sexual agency includes a wife who doesn't want to, won't or can't have sex with her husband. Not all cases of sexless marriage are the same. We don't have to demonize all wives that "don't give it up" to their husbands as unfeeling shrews who are out to make their man miserable.
> 
> And whether anyone likes it or not, your 13 y/o daughters DO have agency over their bodies and some of them will choose to be sexual with their bodies at various levels.
> 
> Honest question: if pregnancy were not an issue at all, and if broken hearts and emotional pain weren't either...would you still have an issue with your 13 y/o mashing with another age appropriate person? Is it really just the "consequences" of sexual behavior that you are worried about for your daughters, or do you really just not like the thought of her experiencing sexual pleasure?


I believe a husband or wife has a right to choose to not to have sex with their spouse.

I also believe that spouse has a right to feel entitled to a level of sexual activity with their relationship partner, and if it is not there, they have a right to end the relationship.


----------



## that_girl

treyvion said:


> I believe a husband or wife has a right to choose to not to have sex with their spouse.
> 
> I also believe that spouse has a right to feel entitled to a level of sexual activity with their relationship partner, and if it is not there, they have a right to end the relationship.


True.

However, in my situation, where my husband has pulled so much crap that his "sorries" mean nothing and now that he "wants this marriage", I'm more like "eh"...and the sex isn't happening.

If he wants to leave, that's fine. But...every situation is different. You can't shet on someone and then expect sex to be part of the aftermath. Wrong.


----------



## Shoto1984

The missing variable in all this is the age of the son or daughter. The "I make the rules" shirts work well up to about 18 and maybe somewhat longer if the kid is still under my roof. Then, (and hopefully I've done my job as a parent) we can transition ot the "she/he makes the rules" shirt and not have a tragic outcome.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> True.
> 
> However, in my situation, where my husband has pulled so much crap that his "sorries" mean nothing and now that he "wants this marriage", I'm more like "eh"...and the sex isn't happening.
> 
> If he wants to leave, that's fine. But...every situation is different. You can't shet on someone and then expect sex to be part of the aftermath. Wrong.


Words can be great, but they don't mean crap unless backed by actions. 

I hear ya!

Yeah hubby cant $hit on you for so long and expect you to look at him in the best light...


----------



## John Lee

Faithful Wife said:


> Honest question: if pregnancy were not an issue at all, and if broken hearts and emotional pain weren't either...would you still have an issue with your 13 y/o mashing with another age appropriate person? Is it really just the "consequences" of sexual behavior that you are worried about for your daughters, or do you really just not like the thought of her experiencing sexual pleasure?



These paradoxical hypos are pointless. Our feelings about a 13-year-old daughter having sex are inseparable from all of the emotional complexity, pain, and potential consequences it can cause.


----------



## John Lee

FWIW, I've never heard a woman say "I'm really glad I lost my virginity at 13" or "I wish I had lost my virginity at 13 instead of at __."


----------



## Faithful Wife

I loved the sexual experiences I had at age 13, so there ya go, John Lee.

I had many lovely boys to make out with and it was fun as hell. Not sex but definitely the warm ups to sex. I still remember every one of them. I suffered no harm, and had only a really great and fun time, learning about my body and my own sexuality.


----------



## always_alone

John Lee said:


> Our feelings about a 13-year-old daughter having sex are inseparable from all of the emotional complexity, pain, and potential consequences it can cause.


Are your feelings about a 13-year old son having sex also inseparable from all of the emotional complexity, pain, and potential consequences?


----------



## that_girl

My daughter is almost 15. A good kid. Swim team. All As (except a C in math which is completely acceptable as she struggles and studies her butt off).

That being said, we TALK. She knows all the sex things. I didn't hold back thinking she wasn't old enough. I answered her questions, I told her things I knew, I told her how old I was when I lost my virginity and my reasons (I was almost 21). We talked about slang, emotions, fertility, how BOTH bodies work....what boys will say, what girls may say (A girl has a crush on her), how to handle different situations, how to start situations, what to do in trouble, what to do to not put herself in a position of trouble, STDs, sex positions, what making love truly means, why she should wait a while longer (she assures me she has no interest in sex and whatever...she's almost 15. She has to know things).

If she came to me and said she wanted to have sex (she has no bf but if she did), I would talk some more...I'd empower her to take control of her fertility. We'd talk about safe sex and why it's important. We'd go over all the consequences from having sex without taking precautions and even when precautions fail.

My biggest thing to her is not to have sex until she can support herself and/or any child she may produce. Marriage isn't a factor in my talks because that's for her to decide. 

Our conversations are amazing. Something I never had with my mother but wish I did. Sex was a "no topic topic" in my home growing up. I kissed at boy at almost 17 and touched his penis and it was the crime of the WORLD. Man, my mom handled that all wrong. Wow. 

My daughter does know that her sexual choices also come with a price in my home. If she wants to do adult things while still an adolescent in my home (or living off me through college, etc), then she'll need to pay adult rent and get adult jobs. 

I don't think there's one thing she and I haven't talked about. We have a great relationship now that she's past middle school. But I feel she has all the tools to make the best decisions for HER. She is not my child, but her own person that I am guiding as she grows. Life is hard. Lessons will be learned. Her heart will be smashed into pieces-- it happens to us all. At this point I'm just there to support her and listen to her as she goes through it all.

I think I got off topic. lol. I'm sorry.


----------



## Entropy3000

treyvion said:


> I believe a husband or wife has a right to choose to not to have sex with their spouse.
> 
> I also believe that spouse has a right to feel entitled to a level of sexual activity with their relationship partner, and if it is not there, they have a right to end the relationship.


Sexual agency can also be perverted into meaning a spouse can have sex with anyone. Which they can. But laws need to change.


----------



## Entropy3000

always_alone said:


> Are your feelings about a 13-year old son having sex also inseparable from all of the emotional complexity, pain, and potential consequences?


No no. I think taking your son with you to the brothel at least weekly is a healthy thing.


----------



## always_alone

Entropy3000 said:


> No no. I think taking your son with you to the brothel at least weekly is a healthy thing.


Well, a brothel is taking it a bit far, but IME, boys get the porn and the high-fives, and the girls get the shame and the speech about consequences.


----------



## that_girl

My brother got the shame and consequences talk. I'm 13 years older than him and my dad and myself talked to him at age 14.

If I had a son, he'd not get porn or high-fives. His penis is just as important as my daughter's vagina. He shouldn't be going around getting STDs or passing them around or knocking girls up.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I've raised two kids to adulthood, one boy one girl, and talked to them about sex and pleasure and reproduction from very early ages. Both became sexually active in high school but both had had some make outs with boys and girls prior to that and both are very sexually health and mature adults now. Both have thanked me many times for handling their sex education at home the way I did.


----------



## coffee4me

that_girl said:


> My brother got the shame and consequences talk. I'm 13 years older than him and my dad and myself talked to him at age 14.
> 
> If I had a son, he'd not get porn or high-fives. *His penis is just as important as my daughter's vagina. He shouldn't be going around getting STDs or passing them around or knocking girls up.*


My son gets the shame and consequences speech perhaps more than my daughter will. If she gets pregnant her consequences are in her control. If he gets a girl pregnant the consequences are out of his control. He is stuck with whatever the girl decides. 

We had this talk again last week. He tells me he just cant take hearing me say words like condom and std's to him. "Mom!, some things can't be unheard. I'm going to be scarred from this conversation" GOOD


----------



## Entropy3000

always_alone said:


> Well, a brothel is taking it a bit far, but IME, boys get the porn and the high-fives, and the girls get the shame and the speech about consequences.


I knew what you meant. I agree with you on this. Let's celebrate that. 

But there was a time when this was true for some.

But the consequences are not small. Even today, if a boy fathers a child ... who deals with this?


----------



## always_alone

Entropy3000 said:


> But the consequences are not small. Even today, if a boy fathers a child ... who deals with this?


Indeed. Precisely why I made that comment in the first place. A free pass is not the right message.

But as we see from some of the responses here, the times, they are a-changin'.

Yay!


----------



## NobodySpecial

coffee4me said:


> My son gets the shame and consequences speech perhaps more than my daughter will. If she gets pregnant her consequences are in her control. If he gets a girl pregnant the consequences are out of his control. He is stuck with whatever the girl decides.
> 
> We had this talk again last week. He tells me he just cant take hearing me say words like condom and std's to him. "Mom!, some things can't be unheard. I'm going to be scarred from this conversation" GOOD


Why would ANYONE EVER include shame in their dialog with their children?


----------



## that_girl

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would ANYONE EVER include shame in their dialog with their children?


Not shame about themselves. More of like...well, in my case, the whole enchilada. 

I guess shame isn't the best word. I don't shame my kid for her choices, but we do admit when we make stupid ones.


----------



## that_girl

And then we think, "What was I supposed to learn from that?"

lol She's a great young woman. I am enjoying the time watching her mature. 

Whoever falls in love with her is a lucky person. She's a quirky, fiery, sometimes OCD firecracker. LOL


----------



## coffee4me

that_girl said:


> Not shame about themselves. More of like...well, in my case, the whole enchilada.
> 
> I guess shame isn't the best word. I don't shame my kid for her choices, but we do admit when we make stupid ones.


exactly, shame is not the right word . I made a stupid choice of word.


----------



## coffee4me

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would ANYONE EVER include shame in their dialog with their children?


Wait, I take that back, shame is the right word. I do talk to my kids about shame. 

Shame: a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you basically know you have done something wrong. 

I have talked them through mistakes that they have made and felt ashamed about. They have felt guilt and regret in their own actions, especially if those actions hurt another. We have discussed this and the consequences of their mistakes.


----------



## that_girl

Shame is man made emotion. So is guilt.

Shame is not healthy.

You can know you did something wrong but also know it was a lesson and that you can make things better and to not do that again.

Shame is nothing I want my children to feel about their decisions. 

I want them to acknowledge their errors and make them right. With strength. People mess up. No need for shame.


----------



## Faithful Wife

The problem with shame in sex discussions with kids is that we end up shaming them for their natural desires to feel pleasure.


----------



## Faithful Wife

What If We Admitted to Children That Sex Is About Pleasure? - Pacific Standard: The Science of Society


----------



## Fenix

that_girl said:


> Shame is man made emotion. So is guilt.
> 
> Shame is not healthy.
> 
> You can know you did something wrong but also know it was a lesson and that you can make things better and to not do that again.
> 
> Shame is nothing I want my children to feel about their decisions.
> 
> I want them to acknowledge their errors and make them right. With strength. People mess up. No need for shame.



Oooh, I disagree. Shame and guilt are both extremely healthy *when they are appropriate*. Both concepts have been contaminated; wrongly in my opinion. Those emotions can be the functions of a healthy conscience. The problem is when they are inappropriate.


----------



## John Lee

always_alone said:


> Are your feelings about a 13-year old son having sex also inseparable from all of the emotional complexity, pain, and potential consequences?


I would absolutely not want my 13-year-old son having sex.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> What If We Admitted to Children That Sex Is About Pleasure? - Pacific Standard: The Science of Society


Great article.

"Our son asked why they didn’t tell him this stuff at school. The mate explained that adults stupidly think that if you tell children the truth about sex, they’ll have sex earlier than they really should. He added that the evidence indicates otherwise."

What I also don't get is why do parents WANT their kids to deny sexuality? Somehow it makes sense to educate them about everything else. But it makes sense to keep them in the dark about sex?


----------



## John Lee

Faithful Wife said:


> I loved the sexual experiences I had at age 13, so there ya go, John Lee.
> 
> I had many lovely boys to make out with and it was fun as hell. Not sex but definitely the warm ups to sex. I still remember every one of them. I suffered no harm, and had only a really great and fun time, learning about my body and my own sexuality.


But sex has consequences that "warmups to sex" do not.


----------



## ocotillo

Deejo said:


> Everybody loves a catchy t-shirt ... Nice message to boot.
> 
> https://shine.yahoo.com/team-mom/-feminist-father--shirt-worn-by-nj-dad-goes-viral-163733847.html


If I've read the article correctly the daughter in question is 20 years old, so my response to the shirt is basically a shrug.

Isn't patting oneself on the back for behaving as they ought to anyway a personality flaw of the "Nice guy?"


----------



## Entropy3000

The mantle has been passed.



I have my idealistic side for sure. I embrace more than anyone else might guess.


----------



## Entropy3000

ocotillo said:


> If I've read the article correctly the daughter in question is 20 years old, so my response to the shirt is basically a shrug.
> 
> Isn't patting oneself on the back for behaving as they ought to anyway a personality flaw of the "Nice guy?"


20!!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

That is a whole other thing. Indeed!


----------



## that_girl

And I don't agree. People are consumed by guilt and shame and never look into fixing it. 

I'm not talking about feeling bad for hurting someone...but that can be fixed to the best of your trying.

When I feel sad about hurting someone, I make it right...sincerely. I never mean to hurt anyone so usually it's a misunderstanding. But to feel guilty and hold on to that is not healthy.

That's all I meant.

Shame is the same thing. If you do something wrong, fix it. To the best of your ability, fix it. Sincerely and with purpose. Don't wallow in shame.


----------



## Happyfamily

QueenofEverything said:


> Because anything that has to do with women being treated and respected like human beings is deemed as "feminism" even though that's not true as feminism oppresses women.


Feminists were at the forefront of anti-pornography, for raising age of consent, and anti-immigration for marriage. They are the ones who denigrated choosing wife/motherhood over work. 

All are the exact opposite of a woman's right to choose. The art of feminism is learning how to look at any situation and frame it as the woman being victimized. 

I know exactly what it is like to have someone force themselves on you as an 8 year old. So when I was 15 and having great sex I was listening to the adults tell me I did not have the "capacity" to choose. They were not on my side. They were on the side of my abuser at 8, all of them taking my right to decide away from me. Anything but let ME decide. They would have taken my boyfriend, put him in jail, ruined his life, and made a big public spectacle out of me. 

The irony of this t-shirt is that it was ordered by a 20-year old and if she was a teen at the age of consent the father would be wearing the one *Simply Amorous* posted. I am the property of someone else.


----------



## Faithful Wife

John Lee said:


> But sex has consequences that "warmups to sex" do not.


So are you ok with your 13 y/o daughter having sexual agency and choosing to make out with age appropriate people, or not?

Then take another step.

How about skin to skin contact?

How about oral sex?

At what point of sexuality do you feel your daughter should no longer have sexual agency to make these decisions? The point is, she DOES have that sexual agency whether you want her to or not. And a lot of what parents are actually afraid of has more to do with her "being a sl*t" than it has to do with the consequences of sex.

If you teach children about reproduction, pleasure, consequences and agency at a young age, they will tend to understand these things at adolescence. Then they really can have agency, because they can understand the consequences of sex. If instead you try to tell them that they aren't allowed to do this and that because "I said so", you are taking away their agency.

The other side of this is that if you do not teach a child what sexual agency means, they will not know it is ok to tell an adult "no" in cases of child molestation.

The double edge of this for some parents is that same agency includes the right to say YES to age appropriate sexuality and masturbation.


----------



## NobodySpecial

that_girl said:


> And I don't agree. People are consumed by guilt and shame and never look into fixing it.
> 
> I'm not talking about feeling bad for hurting someone...but that can be fixed to the best of your trying.
> 
> When I feel sad about hurting someone, I make it right...sincerely. I never mean to hurt anyone so usually it's a misunderstanding. But to feel guilty and hold on to that is not healthy.
> 
> That's all I meant.
> 
> 
> Shame is the same thing. If you do something wrong, fix it. To the best of your ability, fix it. Sincerely and with purpose. Don't wallow in shame.


Shame/gulty and remorse have different flavors to their meaning. I think the beneficial one is remorse. I think it drives remedy and amends. Guilt and shame are tools of religion to keep people in line.


----------



## GTdad

This thread needs some balance from a Neanderthal. Happy to fill the position.

I'm protective of all of my children (I have 8, four of each, and half adults). When my adult son told me he thought he was probably gay and that he was struggling with his feelings about that, it brought out new facets of that instinct. Although I admittedly struggled with it too, most of all I just wanted to hug him and tell him it would be okay (he's several states away).

But with my younger daughters? That instinct to protect them is strongest of all, right or wrong. And it's not about sex so much as it is protecting them from pain, though of course sex is part of that equation. But when I meet boyfriends, the look and vibe I send their way isn't "protect my daughter's chastity", it's "protect my daughter's heart". Lest I dig yours out with a rusty shovel.

I feel the same way of my sons' hearts, but I admit that's it not quite as fiercely intense. I don't know why, exactly, I guess because what we're talking about _is_ instinctual, not intellectual. But I'm okay with that.


----------



## John Lee

[to faithful wife] I feel like you are not making a distinction between "agency" and what the role of a parent is. Agency is the ability to decide what to do or not to do. I can't stop my daughter from doing anything. I'm not going to put a chastity belt on her, I'm not going to keep her locked up. But I can encourage her to err on the side of caution. 13-year-olds understand pleasure, but there are a lot of things they don't understand. As a parent, you know more about life than they do, so I see it as your job to guide them. I would not "shame" my daughter for having sex at 13, but I'd certainly encourage her to wait longer.


----------



## Faithful Wife

And John...I'm only talking about 13 y/o's because someone else brought up that exact age. But the point I'm really making is that many kids at age 13 are already sexually active in various age appropriate ways. Parents should be working with this, not against it. That's all. Agency is having the right to do or not do with your body as you see fit. Yes, a 13 y/o needs a lot of education in order to make the best choices. But many of them do, and within 2 years many of them really will have sex...consequences or not. You know, nature taking its course and all.


----------



## Entropy3000

One thing to also consider is your values may not be the values of others. Meaning allowing / encouraging your son or daughter to have sex in their bedroom may be what you consider to be ok. One could argue better there than somewhere else.

But what about the situation where the parents of a boy support their son having sex with girls at their home? The girls parents may have a completely different view of this. We might declare that her parents are out of bounds. We cannot make those decisions for other people. Whether we feel we are right or not.

There is a difference between children doing this anyway and for them to be encouraged to do so. One would have to fight the all too common living thru your children vicariously that so many will do. 

Should parents have faith in other parents? Probably not.

My point is that this can very much be abused in its own ways under activist thinking. In fact I could see an idiot father helping his son set this type of thing up and this is unfair to the girl. Or vice versa. No one has suggested this is what anyone wants but there are always those that will take advantage.

Unintended consequences is the point even if my example above is less than perfect.


----------



## Happyfamily

Faithful Wife said:


> The point is, she DOES have that sexual agency whether you want her to or not.


Absolutely!

The bizarre thing is that we have actually granted enormous power to children over their parents and others with these laws that are supposedly protecting them. 

If you want your parents in jail, sneak out of the house and soon enough someone with a cell phone will call the police because you are unattended. Better still, just say you are afraid of a parent to one of your school teachers. The teachers are encouraging the students to do just that. 

If you want a giant drama swirling around you then flirt with older guys and it won't take long to have him carted off to jail and everyone at your feet saying what a victim you are. 

The median age of sex the first time is 17. Over 150 million people have had sex before 17, yet it is treated in the news as if they were some extreme rarity, needing rescuing. 

They're doing it. Six million of them by age 12. There are things you can do to reduce the odds but if they are determined - almost nothing you can do will stop them.


----------



## John Lee

Happyfamily said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> The bizarre thing is that we have actually granted enormous power to children over their parents and others with these laws that are supposedly protecting them.
> 
> If you want your parents in jail, sneak out of the house and soon enough someone with a cell phone will call the police because you are unattended. Better still, just say you are afraid of a parent to one of your school teachers. The teachers are encouraging the students to do just that.
> 
> If you want a giant drama swirling around you then flirt with older guys and it won't take long to have him carted off to jail and everyone at your feet saying what a victim you are.
> 
> The median age of sex the first time is 17. Over 150 million people have had sex before 17, yet it is treated in the news as if they were some extreme rarity, needing rescuing.
> 
> They're doing it. Six million of them by age 12. There are things you can do to reduce the odds but if they are determined - almost nothing you can do will stop them.


That's an irresponsible argument imo. Millions of people drive drunk every year too. I would say having sex at 12 is about as responsible as driving drunk. In fact, at that age your self-control compared to your hormones is about the equivalent of being drunk.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Shame is man made emotion. So is guilt.
> 
> Shame is not healthy.
> 
> You can know you did something wrong but also know it was a lesson and that you can make things better and to not do that again.
> 
> Shame is nothing I want my children to feel about their decisions.
> 
> I want them to acknowledge their errors and make them right. With strength. People mess up. No need for shame.


Disagree.

Shame, Guilt, Jealousy, Fear are all as natural as breathing.

Without a sense of shame and guilt it would be impossible to empathize.
Lack of empathy is a trade mark of narcissistic disorder.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lol,

I can't believe that we're talking about encouraging our 13 and 14 year old kids to have sex , because they have " agency."

Well why not just give them your credit cards, keys to your car and whilst you're at it, sign over the deed of your property to them ?

After all, it _is_ also rightfully theirs too.

No?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Disagree.
> 
> *Shame, Guilt, Jealousy, Fear are all as natural as breathing.*
> 
> Without a sense of shame and guilt it would be impossible to empathize.
> Lack of empathy is a trade mark of narcissistic disorder.


Here is a snippet from Brene Brown on that (the Shame researcher).... the difference between *guilt* and *shame*... they serve a necessary purpose, shame keeps us down, it is debilitating (associated with addictions, anger, etc)... but Guilt is our helper... this doesn't mention Empathy -even though it was labeled as such...

Empathy Magic


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Shame, Guilt, Jealousy, Fear are all as natural as breathing.
> 
> Without a sense of shame and guilt it would be impossible to empathize.
> Lack of empathy is a trade mark of narcissistic disorder.


Who said anything about a lack of empathy?

I feel tons of empathy without shame or guilt.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> I can't believe that we're talking about encouraging our 13 and 14 year old kids to have sex , because they have " agency."
> 
> Well why not just give them your credit cards, keys to your car and whilst you're at it, sign over the deed of your property to them ?
> 
> After all, it _is_also rightfully theirs too.
> 
> No?


I wonder what thread you are reading. I see nothing here that says people want their young teens to have sex. 

It was questions. Not encouragement.


----------



## that_girl

But the choices we make can help or harm others.

What good does shame or guilt have? It doesn't serve anyone.

Acknowledging the eff up, owning it, admitting it, no bullshet, seeing it from the other person's side, listening, apologizing and changing your ways is way better than wallowing in guilt and shame.

Please.


----------



## Deejo

Don't know who mentioned '13 year old girl', but it wasn't me. My daughter is a wonderful and young, 8. 

We aren't going to be talking about sex and agency, until well after we have had the discussion about where babies come from.


----------



## Happyfamily

John Lee said:


> That's an irresponsible argument imo. Millions of people drive drunk every year too. I would say having sex at 12 is about as responsible as driving drunk. In fact, at that age your self-control compared to your hormones is about the equivalent of being drunk.


lol. Straw man. Watch me do the same for you:

You should not be advocating drunk driving. It's irresponsible.


----------



## John Lee

Happyfamily said:


> lol. Straw man. Watch me do the same for you:
> 
> You should not be advocating drunk driving. It's irresponsible.


No, I think you're missing the point. "They're doing it anyway" is not a reason to accept behavior.


----------



## Entropy3000

Deejo said:


> Don't know who mentioned '13 year old girl', but it wasn't me. My daughter is a wonderful and young, 8.
> 
> We aren't going to be talking about sex and agency, until well after we have had the discussion about where babies come from.


Much later they will learn where jewelry comes from.

Eclectic sexist reference ... nevermind.

Punchline :
_
Her mother interrupted her and said, "Oh no, honey, that's where jewelry comes from."_


----------



## Happyfamily

John Lee said:


> No, I think you're missing the point. "They're doing it anyway" is not a reason to accept behavior.


"They're drunk driving" is no reason for you to accept drunk driving. I wish you would stop promoting drunk driving.

I am not missing the point at all. Just returning the favor.

You are also using the fallacy of false equivalency. Why not bring Hilter killing the Jews while you're at it. It's just like underage sex and drunk driving. When people do this - inability to argue a point on its own merits... they have conceded.


----------



## Faithful Wife

John Lee said:


> No, I think you're missing the point. "They're doing it anyway" is not a reason to accept behavior.


And yet whether you accept it or not, "they're doing it anyway".


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> Don't know who mentioned '13 year old girl', but it wasn't me. My daughter is a wonderful and young, 8.
> 
> We aren't going to be talking about sex and agency, until well after we have had the discussion about where babies come from.


Your daughter doesn't know where babies come from at age 8?

There are basic reproduction facts that small children can easily understand without knowing anything about "sex". I'd advise you to move toward giving her that education. By age 10 she may start menstruating, some do. She needs information about her body well before that time.


----------



## John Lee

Faithful Wife said:


> And yet whether you accept it or not, "they're doing it anyway".


Really? How come kids from some backgrounds are more likely to do it than others? You think parents make no difference in whether girls have sex at age 12?


----------



## John Lee

Happyfamily said:


> "They're drunk driving" is no reason for you to accept drunk driving. I wish you would stop promoting drunk driving.
> 
> I am not missing the point at all. Just returning the favor.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you were "promoting" it, I said you shouldn't accept it just because they're doing it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

John Lee said:


> Really? How come kids from some backgrounds are more likely to do it than others? You think parents make no difference in whether girls have sex at age 12?


Lol! Yeah, our cave ancestors were real sl*ts weren't they. Too bad they weren't privileged enough to teach their kids better, yeah?

Humans are going to start having sex when they hit puberty. As it always has been and always will be.


----------



## John Lee

Faithful Wife said:


> Lol! Yeah, our cave ancestors were real sl*ts weren't they. Too bad they weren't privileged enough to teach their kids better, yeah?
> 
> Humans are going to start having sex when they hit puberty. As it always has been and always will be.


Getting pregnant at 13 is fine if you're expecting to lead a short hunter-gatherer style life and die at 30.


----------



## John Lee

I mean, our cave ancestors did lots of things -- are you cool with all of them because they are "natural"?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Exactly! And our bodies still want to start having sex at that age, right?

So we need to discuss that fact with our kids, that WANTING to have sex is completely normal and natural and that is one of the ways you give them agency.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok, John I can see we're getting no where, so nice chatting with ya. Whatever point you think you are making with me is getting no where also, so fair is fair.


----------



## that_girl

I don't encourage my 15 year old to have sex. But education is important. Knowing that it's her body and she should respect it is important. Knowing that sex doesn't always equal love is important for a 15 year old girl to know.

I was 21 when I lost my V card (well, almost 21). I had many reasons to wait as long as I did. I shared those with her. As parents we can't shy away from the one thing that made us parents. We have to discuss this with our children and that starts at age 3 with body parts and what private means, etc.


----------



## Faithful Wife

never mind...can't post link...


----------



## Caribbean Man

John Lee said:


> Getting pregnant at 13 is fine if you're expecting to lead a short hunter-gatherer style life and die at 30.


I " adopted " my nephew at a very young age.
Took care of him , sent him to school, checked his homework , and grades etc.

At 12 yrs old he wrote an exam and was accepted into a very prestigious Catholic boy's college.
But even at that age, there were lots of girls around him. He was big for his age, athletic built and played rugby for a junior club.

When he was accepted into the college, I sat him down and explained certain realities of life to him, especially about opportunity,choices and how they would affect his future.
I told him should he choose to start having sex with those girls the risks were plenty at that age and weren't worth the risk. 

I explained to him that if he got a girl pregnant he might as well kiss his dreams of becoming an engineer and a professional football player goodbye. I told him in no uncertain terms that I would not be helping him take care of any baby at that age. I told him if a man had sex with a woman and she got pregnant ,then the offspring was his responsibility and his alone.
Not his parents, neither the government.

Today at 19 yrs old, he's working part time, is a first year engineering student,professional rugby player, has a gorgeous 22 yr old woman , a Psychology major as his girlfriend, and is well on his way to achieving his dreams.

It all comes down to equipping kids to make the right lifestyle choices that would enable them to achieve their goals.

Recently he asked me to help him purchase a car.
_That_ , most certainly, I _will_ help him do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Hmm....so interesting. And here I thought I was the only one who raised good kids who didn't get people pregnant.


----------



## Happyfamily

John Lee said:


> I didn't say you were "promoting" it, I said you shouldn't accept it just because they're doing it.


The moment you stop making straw man arguments, false equivalencies, and feigning moral superiority over me then the favor will be returned. 

People that educate their children and speak frankly with them are accustomed to this kind of illegitimate attack. I totally understand the technique. You want me to be on the defensive, blubbering about how right you are that I don't want my kids having sex at age ten or whatever.

But I don't let people bully me like that. You know I don't, but you just want the pleasure of making me say it instead of debating the point: how do you approach the subject given the fact they can choose whether you like it or not. 

For one thing, you don't bully your kids like you are trying to bully me. You don't prove yourself a hypocrite that cannot be trusted. You speak to them as people with rights and abilities, not talk down to them as sub-humans. I saw the results of that approach with young girls who rebelled by doing the very things the parents didn't want.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> I told him if a man had sex with a woman and she got pregnant ,then the offspring was his responsibility and his alone.


This is how my husband sees it, too. He puts the responsibility on the man. 

He does not blame women for the single mother "epidemic," as he calls it.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> This is how my husband sees it, too. He puts the responsibility on the man.
> 
> He does not blame women for the single mother "epidemic," as he calls it.


Not surprising that you missed the point...CM's post had nothing to do with gender or the man taking responsibility simply because he's a man...sheesh...do women carry ANY responsibility for ANYTHING in your world view?


----------



## Entropy3000

samyeagar said:


> Not surprising that you missed the point...CM's post had nothing to do with gender or the man taking responsibility simply because he's a man...sheesh...do women carry ANY responsibility for ANYTHING in your world view?


Yes. The point had nothing to do with gender but limiting ones life and dreams.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *jld said*: This is how my husband sees it, too. He puts the responsibility on the man.
> 
> He does not blame women for the single mother "epidemic," as he calls it.





> *samyeagar said*: Not surprising that you missed the point...CM's post had nothing to do with gender or the man taking responsibility simply because he's a man...sheesh...do women carry ANY responsibility for ANYTHING in your world view?


This is how I view it.. I don't feel one sex is more responsible over the other...*the Ideal *is when both sexes look to themselves 1st and not blame the other....and in this train of thought I think highly of JLD's husband..for being SO RESPONSIBLE.....as he is not a man who would walk away from a women he impregnated..

Asking my H's thoughts on this ..he said .. "in a perfect world, all men would be a MAN about it & take responsibility".... but reality shows otherwise.... every day...

Now...speaking from my own POINT of view.. ..I feel men are weaker sexually due to the excess Testosterone pumping & washing over them in puberty-causing them to wank themselves up to 5 times a day (my H did)... their brains have been hi-jacked to SEX , SEX , SEX... and this shows by how they are always trying to bed women...(My H just lost himself in Playboy magazines instead)...they have an incessant WANT to stick it IN something.. it's an urge that needs taken care of...also the shape of women's bodies suddenly becomes electric..they can't get enough.. 

I really don't think the majority of younger women are plagued with that sort of Horniness in high school in comparison...(no way!)....this is why those who study hormones will tell you this is Men's PRIME years ....(for us women -this comes later, late 30's into our 40's.. and WOW!!!!)...

So I have always viewed MYSELF MORE RESPONSIBLE to put on the brakes..guarding my hole and who goes there...after all, I would be the one left carrying a baby, or having to get an abortion or feeling devastated if I fell in love with this guy & he walked away..


----------



## Entropy3000

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Now...speaking from my own POINT of view.. ..I feel men are weaker sexually due to the excess Testosterone pumping & washing over them in puberty-causing them to wank themselves up to 5 times a day (my H did)... their brains have been hi-jacked to SEX , SEX , SEX... and this shows by how they are always trying to bed women...(My H just lost himself in Playboy magazines instead)...they have an incessant WANT to stick it IN something.. it's an urge that needs taken care of...also the shape of women's bodies suddenly becomes electric..they can't get enough.. *


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Oh hell to the yes.

Insatiable.


----------



## over20

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is how I view it.. I don't feel one sex is more responsible over the other...*the Ideal *is when both sexes look to themselves 1st and not blame the other....and in this train of thought I think highly of JLD's husband..for being SO RESPONSIBLE.....as he is not a man who would walk away from a women he impregnated..
> 
> Asking my H's thoughts on this ..he said .. "in a perfect world, all men would be a MAN about it & take responsibility".... but reality shows otherwise.... every day...
> 
> Now...speaking from my own POINT of view.. ..I feel men are weaker sexually due to the excess Testosterone pumping & washing over them in puberty-causing them to wank themselves up to 5 times a day (my H did)... their brains have been hi-jacked to SEX , SEX , SEX... and this shows by how they are always trying to bed women...(My H just lost himself in Playboy magazines instead)...they have an incessant WANT to stick it IN something.. it's an urge that needs taken care of...also the shape of women's bodies suddenly becomes electric..they can't get enough..
> 
> I really don't think the majority of younger women are plagued with that sort of Horniness in high school in comparison...(no way!)....this is why those who study hormones will tell you this is Men's PRIME years ....(for us women -this comes later, late 30's into our 40's.. and WOW!!!!)...
> 
> So I have always viewed MYSELF MORE RESPONSIBLE to put on the brakes..guarding my hole and who goes there...after all, I would be the one left carrying a baby, or having to get an abortion or feeling devastated if I fell in love with this guy & he walked away..


I agree SA. What about the fact that a couple can have sex, the woman gets pregnant....chooses NOT to tell the father,and she has an abortion..he never knows he lost a child.....a child he might want to raise.....OR she decides she wants the baby and he wants an abortion... he is stuck with child support for 18 years....see how skewed it is....:scratchhead:


----------



## jld

SA, you certainly have a wise view: guarding with whom you share your body. You chose a sensible man to marry, and you have been very happy. Wise course.

Dh will be home tomorrow, and I will ask him to look at this thread. He is coming in late, so it might not happen until Sunday.

I know he faults men more for irresponsibility. He says that men are selfish, and women are vulnerable. He did say once that some women are selfish, too.

He just doesn't tolerate much from men, SA. He believes men can control themselves, if they need/want to. He doesn't like to see them given a pass.


----------



## that_girl

If you have sex a baby could be made. I duno how to make it any clearer. If a woman aborts the child, that's on her and it may suck for the man....but I have yet to find a solution that makes the woman carry the child in her body so the man can raise it.

I guess that's life. Until men can carry their own child in his body. Sounds cold, but....yea.

As far as having a child the man doesn't want and then lacing him with child support? I've been there. Got knocked up by a man who said he never wanted kids. I had been told I couldn't have kids by a doctor. Seemed to be a good fit until surprise!

We tried to make it work for a while. It didn't last 2 years. The first year we were broken up and i left him a year after I moved in with him when she was 2.

I never went after child support. I made this child with a man who was up front about not wanting kids. Fine. His loss. He was a good dad for 8 years then poof! gone.

They talk and stuff but that's their business. My daughter sees who he is (a jerk) and I say nothing.

Never once have I collected a check from him and she's almost 15.

I raised my kid.


----------



## that_girl

I was watching "Becoming Chaz" the other night. Beautiful story about Chastity Bono becoming who she/he is now. Chaz. A man.

He said, "I never understood men's desire to hump everything they saw until I started taking testosterone. It's INTENSE!"

That hit me. I don't think men and women will ever truly understand each other's hormonal balance until they've walked a mile...Just have to do the best we can, I guess.


----------



## over20

This is a tough topic to discuss. Thank you for sharing your story...You were told by a doc that you could not have children, right? You must have discussed this with your lover. He also shared that he did not want children as well..right? That sounds fair enough. 

Can you see for a small moment how a man, has no control over the decision when a baby is made.....he is dammed if he wants to keep it and dammed if he wants an abortion...


----------



## hambone

JLD. Who do you think looks more towards their wedding day, young men, or young women?

Who spend more time fantasizing... planning, dreaming about getting married?


----------



## that_girl

Yes, I see that. I think it all goes back to really knowing whom you are having sex with.

I could never have an abortion. Just isn't for me. I told other men this. I used protection and clocked my cycles. My children are 9 years apart and not by accident.

If a man feels that strongly about wanting any child that is made, then he better know the woman he's making the child with.


----------



## that_girl

I've also had friends who get pregnant and the man is into it and then POOF ! disappears. Or tries to talk her into an abortion.

My friend had this baby and he's nowhere to be found. This man was all about her and this baby and blah blah blah.

The coin has two sides.


----------



## over20

That's true...your very wise and I believe you can see both sides.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> I've also had friends who get pregnant and the man is into it and then POOF ! disappears. Or tries to talk her into an abortion.
> 
> My friend had this baby and he's nowhere to be found. This man was all about her and this baby and blah blah blah.
> 
> The coin has two sides.


I agree. How can we all make this more fair....should we have laws about this such thing?...gun shot weddings...till death do us part....may have solved some relationships.....IDK:scratchhead:


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> JLD. Who do you think looks more towards their wedding day, young men, or young women?
> 
> Who spend more time fantasizing... planning, dreaming about getting married?


Generally speaking, women. But I guess men think it's pretty important, too.

Why?


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> I was watching "Becoming Chaz" the other night. Beautiful story about Chastity Bono becoming who she/he is now. Chaz. A man.
> 
> He said, "I never understood men's desire to hump everything they saw until I started taking testosterone. It's INTENSE!"
> 
> That hit me. I don't think men and women will ever truly understand each other's hormonal balance until they've walked a mile...Just have to do the best we can, I guess.


I see your point, but Chaz was NOT born a male but a female...HUGE difference...


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Generally speaking, women. But I guess men think it's pretty important, too.
> 
> Why?


I'm asking... you think young girls are just slightly more interested in getting married than young men?

I see a whole industry built around brides.. TV shows like, "Say YES to the dress". Bride magazine.. Bridal fairs etc etc.

You think boys grow up dreaming of their "big day"?

When I look in the Sunday paper... I see tons of pictures of the Brides... 

How often do you hear a boy say...in frustration..."She's afraid of commitment!"

And, from personal experience... I've seen how girls pressure my son to marry them.


----------



## that_girl

over20 said:


> I see your point, but Chaz was NOT born a male but a female...HUGE difference...


Not really. He was putting the male's equivalent of testosterone into her body.

It was causing sex issues with her partner.


----------



## over20

jld said:


> Generally speaking, women. But I guess men think it's pretty important, too.
> 
> Why?


I am not being mean JLD, but men have more to lose by getting married.....by nature they want to spread their seed....marriage limits them.


----------



## that_girl

over20 said:


> I am not being mean JLD, but men have more to lose by getting married.....by nature they want to spread their seed....marriage limits them.


I don't think that's true in this day in age.

I work. I have a career. I have a ton to lose in respect to livelihood.

My checks were garnished by the IRS because of husband's lies and stupidity.

If men want to spread their seed, don't get married. Women these days know what they are worth and what they deserve. Being tied to one person who could make your life hell is also soul sucking. 

Both people have a lot to lose when things go wrong.

I'd never legally marry again. That's for sure.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> I don't think that's true in this day in age.
> 
> I work. I have a career. I have a ton to lose in respect to livelihood.
> 
> My checks were garnished by the IRS because of husband's lies and stupidity.
> 
> If men want to spread their seed, don't get married. Women these days know what they are worth and what they deserve. Being tied to one person who could make your life hell is also soul sucking.
> 
> Both people have a lot to lose when things go wrong.
> 
> I'd never legally marry again. That's for sure.



Your right.... I was trying to make the point that it is a non gender issue......I am not being mean, but your situation at hand might skew the topic for fair debate.


----------



## that_girl

Well, I'm not the only one who has had "more to lose" from getting married.

I know a few women who were raked over the coals in divorces. One of which's husband was openly cheating on her. She made more money and had to pay HIM alimony because of it. OMG! He was openly and cruelly cheating on her, she files divorce and now pays him 500 a month. The eff.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> Well, I'm not the only one who has had "more to lose" from getting married.
> 
> I know a few women who were raked over the coals in divorces. One of which's husband was openly cheating on her. She made more money and had to pay HIM alimony because of it. OMG! He was openly and cruelly cheating on her, she files divorce and now pays him 500 a month. The eff.


Yes, it goes both ways.....read "moving ahead" story....he is a TAM member here who has gone through hell with his cheating wife...


----------



## that_girl

So really, anybody has "more to lose". Not just men. If men want to sow their seeds, then marriage isn't for them. But they CHOOSE to get into a monogamous, legal union so that's their problem if they suddenly wish they hadn't.

Same as for people who have more to lose financially. I know people poopoo prenuptuals, but in all honesty, shet happens.


----------



## over20

I see your point......and I like the healthy debate.....so if a man and women agree to sex.....and she was willing ...and getspregnant........why would she insist on child support?....does she or does't she want to keep the baby? It's not the mans fault for getting her pregnant....dang she should have been on the pill.....


----------



## that_girl

Men don't have to be trapped into anything. They are grown people with minds of their own.

If they go an marry someone because they feel pressed to do so, that's on them and they should get a backbone.


----------



## that_girl

No birth control is 100%. So you have to know whom you are sleeping with.

Talk. Talk about every situation that could happen.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> Men don't have to be trapped into anything. They are grown people with minds of their own.
> 
> If they go an marry someone because they feel pressed to do so, that's on them and they should get a backbone.


Wow...ouch :scratchhead:


----------



## that_girl

Why ouch?

You can't make a choice to marry someone and then cry about it. You chose to do it. You could have easily said no and dealt with the drama for a while and moved on.


----------



## that_girl

What are you talking about? She has the rights over her body and what is inside of it...at this point in time, that is law.

Fair to men? Well, when it's equal that both people can get pregnant and endure all that that entails, we'll talk fair.

No one should be pressed into marriage. Say no.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> What are you talking about? She has the rights over her body and what is inside of it...at this point in time, that is law.
> 
> Fair to men? Well, when it's equal that both people can get pregnant and endure all that that entails, we'll talk fair.
> 
> No one should be pressed into marriage. Say no.


Once again the argument is one sided.....


----------



## that_girl

Lol. Well, have fun with that. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Grown people have choice. Make your choice and deal with it. Man or woman.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> What are you talking about? She has the rights over her body and what is inside of it...at this point in time, that is law.
> 
> Fair to men? Well, when it's equal that both people can get pregnant and endure all that that entails, we'll talk fair.
> 
> No one should be pressed into marriage. Say no.


Thank you for proving my point, yes it takes a sperm and egg.


----------



## over20

that_girl said:


> Lol. Well, have fun with that. I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Grown people have choice. Make your choice and deal with it. Man or woman.


Why cant you still see that men have no choice but to accept a womans choice?.....:scratchhead:


----------



## TiggyBlue

over20 said:


> Why cant you still see that men have no choice but to accept a womans choice?.....:scratchhead:


But they do have a choice IMO, sex was the choice.
For both genders there can be massive consequences (pregnancy,std's,protection not working,their sexual partner turning out to be a shady character and trying to trap into pregnancy by either pretending to be on the pill or piercing condoms). 
If two people willingly have sex fully knowing what the consequences could be then neither are victims of what happens thereafter.


----------



## over20

TiggyBlue said:


> But they do have a choice IMO, they have the choice to not have sex.
> For both genders there can be massive consequences (pregnancy,std's,protection not working,their sexual partner turning out to be a shady character and trying to trap into pregnancy by either pretending to be on the pill or piercing condoms).
> If two people willingly have sex fully knowing what the consequences could be then neither are victims of what happens thereafter.


I respect your opinion....but why is the man always the target..why aren't..woman asked to close their legs....and the man can then before sex...put money on the table for an abortion,...if the woman sees fit? But maybe she wants more than an abortion...and once again....does she tell her partner she is pregnant and why not?
.


----------



## TiggyBlue

over20 said:


> I respect your opinion....but why is the man always the target..why aren't..woman asked to close their legs....and the man can then before sex...put money on the table for an abortion,...if the woman sees fit?


It might be my experience but I've heard plenty of times someone say comment's like 'should have kept her legs closed' about a single mum.


----------



## over20

I agree. But a single mum becomes a single mum sometimes by choice..


----------



## TiggyBlue

over20 said:


> I agree. But a single mum becomes a single mum sometimes by choice..


I agree it can sometimes by choice, but before conception two people that made a choice that led to her becoming a single mum (unless she used a sperm bank).
Either way it's easy to target or try to put onus on one gender's head but at the end of the day it is a lot harder for someone to trick you into getting pregnant or force you to become a father when you don't want to be if individual take sole responsibility for themselves and use their own measures to protection themselves.


----------



## over20

TiggyBlue said:


> But they do have a choice IMO, sex was the choice.
> For both genders there can be massive consequences (pregnancy,std's,protection not working,their sexual partner turning out to be a shady character and trying to trap into pregnancy by either pretending to be on the pill or piercing condoms).
> If two people willingly have sex fully knowing what the consequences could be then neither are victims of what happens thereafter.


Exactly.....then the woman should not expect child support and the man should not have to pay for an abortion.


----------



## TiggyBlue

over20 said:


> Exactly.....then the woman should not expect child support and the man should not have to pay for an abortion.


I agree and the man should not expect to get out of paying child support.


----------



## over20

Wow.......and the woman should tell the man he is a father before SHE chooses to abort HIS baby.


----------



## TiggyBlue

over20 said:


> Wow.......and the woman should tell the man he is a father before SHE chooses to abort HIS baby.


I agree that is totally biologically unfair on men but (and I don't mean to sound callous) biology isn't fair. 
It's not fair that from two people having sex a women either has the choice of aborts (which wouldn't be a walk in the park for many) or carry a baby full term and it isn't fair that due to being the carrier of that child could abort a mans baby.

All you can do is give kids the tool of information and consequences and hope they apply it so either gender hopefully minimizes the risk of ever being put into these type of situations.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> SA, you certainly have a wise view: guarding with whom you share your body. You chose a sensible man to marry, and you have been very happy. Wise course.
> 
> Dh will be home tomorrow, and I will ask him to look at this thread. He is coming in late, so it might not happen until Sunday.
> 
> I know he faults men more for irresponsibility. *He says that men are selfish, and women are vulnerable. * He did say once that some women are selfish, too.
> 
> He just doesn't tolerate much from men, SA. He believes men can control themselves, if they need/want to. He doesn't like to see them given a pass.


 Your Husband is certainly unique.. it must have been that in his lifetime he has seen the women around him *more* taken advantage of (I think we talked about this!) and as you say Vulnerable... he is on the grand scale of that Protector / Provider type.... He was obviously very turned off by what he saw or experienced and this left a profound effect on him at a young age... 

I just think we often speak out of what we have seen or experienced ourselves -and it becomes ingrained in us.. 



> *that girl said*: I was watching "Becoming Chaz" the other night. Beautiful story about Chastity Bono becoming who she/he is now. Chaz. A man.
> 
> *He said, "I never understood men's desire to hump everything they saw until I started taking testosterone. It's INTENSE!*"
> 
> That hit me. I don't think men and women will ever truly understand each other's hormonal balance until they've walked a mile...Just have to do the best we can, I guess.


 I wish I would have seen that...

I really FEEL ''*I get it"*.. I was thinking I had a sex addiction when I hit 42.. (was on an addiction forum before I landed here)...I was too embarrassed to REALLY come out & speak how HIGH my sex drive was, it was causing "sex issues" with my Husband.....*I could not get enough*....

I had physical symptoms...like our teen sons in puberty..my body temp was Hotter.. fouler smelling underarms suddenly .... a burst of energy, I hardly needed sleep, wanted to jump him 3 times a day... needed 0 foreplay for 8 straight months (If I had a rod, it would have NEVER went down!)......Porn suddenly became electric to me, shivers right to my private parts... we rented it !...it was so bad, I could hardly concentrate, I was undressing every good looking man I seen in public...I could NOT keep my hands off my Husband.....(oh he was Enjoying all this LUST directed at him)...everything else seemed so mundane... I lived around his erections...I felt GREAT, a new confidence came over me -my new language was flirting.....

If they could bottle what happened to me and sell it to Low drive women.. that'd be bigger than Viagra!

I was beginning to wonder if I had some form of Bi-polar hyper sexuality .. I was loving it ... but it was tormenting at the same time..because the "need" was ever present....if he would have pushed me away, I don't think I could have handled it.. it was THAT INTENSE. That RUSH lasted 8 months.. (My crazy story)... so I feel I have a good understanding of what men go through ..

I can say this.. my H had WAY MORE restraint - and self control if one compared me in MY Prime to His in HIS Prime though... I looked at him with the straightest of faces and asked him "how in the hell did you DO that??" putting himself down as much as he did in our past.. I suddenly realized how much I hurt him.. but it also made me MAD feeling he should have talked to me, let me know how he felt..came on to me like a freight train sort of thing (like I was)... Darn him...

He told me he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex"....Oh that was sweet....but I didnt care if it was "Just about sex" during THAT time..we both joked how I needed my "FIX" many times during that phase.. that was my Great awakening !


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> When he was accepted into the college, I sat him down and explained certain realities of life to him, especially about opportunity,choices and how they would affect his future.
> I told him should he choose to start having sex with those girls the risks were plenty at that age and weren't worth the risk.
> 
> *I explained to him that if he got a girl pregnant he might as well kiss his dreams of becoming an engineer and a professional football player goodbye. I told him in no uncertain terms that I would not be helping him take care of any baby at that age. I told him if a man had sex with a woman and she got pregnant ,then the offspring was his responsibility and his alone.
> Not his parents, neither the government.*


CB, even though you didn't have your own biological children, you have the heart of a GOOD Father ...that's just how I see it...you have mentioned your niece many times over as well.. in how you handled her and what you taught her .... I just really like your style ...you lay out the scenarios.. they understand it's their choice...and you do it with CONCERN for their well being, their future....as it should be..

My step Mother was not a loving person to me growing up.. but the strict lessons on responsibility for my every action..and to NOT blame someone else or even think or entertain the idea that those outside of my choices (mainly her & my Dad) was going to step in and save me.... this was drilled into me since I was like 10 yrs old....... I resented some things about my upbringing but not being taught THIS...

I'm nothing like my Step Mothers style... with our kids...there is much give & take..sit down discussions.... we allow our children to argue with us (what I really mean is Honesty banter...the freedom to debate any /every issue)...we want them to speak their minds FULLY.. so we know where they are , what they believe in....why they believe in it .... we lay out scenarios...encourage them to REASON every side ..and to always always always have their future in mind..to avoid as many detours as possible in life.



> *TiggyBlue said:* *But they do have a choice IMO, sex was the choice.*
> 
> For both genders there can be massive consequences (pregnancy,std's,protection not working,their sexual partner turning out to be a shady character and trying to trap into pregnancy by either pretending to be on the pill or piercing condoms).
> *If two people willingly have sex fully knowing what the consequences could be then neither are victims of what happens thereafter.*












No Victim....sex was *the* choice. 



> (a sperm bank).
> Either way it's easy to target or try to put onus on one gender's head but *at the end of the day it is a lot harder for someone to trick you into getting pregnant or force you to become a father when you don't want to be if individual take sole responsibility for themselves and use their own measures to protection themselves*.


 How important it is...



> *Over20 said*: Exactly.....*then the woman should not expect child support and the man should not have to pay for an abortion.*


 This is how I feel... Too many people set themselves UP *expecting* others will "DO THE RIGHT THING"....if we had a penny for how many times that goes sour, we'd all be millionaires.... if one has casual sex, basically they do NOT know that person or what they are made of.. so to expect ANYTHING from a night of passion.... to me is laughable, naive ...and this is what mistakes are made of...

Oh you can take them to court, b**** whine & moan how they are scum (how often do we see this in society?).... Genders at each others throats.. but at the end of the day, had they BEEN more responsible on their own end.. all of this would have been avoided!! Those who actually marry and are good partners, now when they get screwed, I truly see them as a victim.. but not in the dating world.. I just don't...I can't. We have masturbation.. we have so many sex toys, can we have orgasmic pleasure without a strange body. ..hell yeah! 

Personally If I was dumb enough to sleep with a Prick.. and got myself knocked up.. if I wanted that Baby.. I really woud want to wash the A-hole from my life.. if he gave me any attitude about stepping up and paying.. 

The whole scenario would disgust me on the deepest of levels...at that point I could see me wanting his rights terminated ..on paper.. and having the Prick completely washed from my life..as I wouldn't want my child to be seen as a BURDEN.. in any way. 

I just think we set ourselves up when we EXPECT someone outside of a willing giving commitment to us / knowing & tasting of their character to *care* or *DO* anything for us...


----------



## hambone

TiggyBlue said:


> I agree and the man should not expect to get out of paying child support.



Do you believe in equality? Equal rights?


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Personally If I was dumb enough to sleep with a Prick.. and got myself knocked up.. if I wanted that Baby.. I really woud want to wash the A-hole from my life.. if he gave me any attitude about stepping up and paying..
> 
> The whole scenario would disgust me on the deepest of levels...at that point I could see me wanting his rights terminated ..on paper.. and having the Prick completely washed from my life..as I wouldn't want my child to be seen as a BURDEN.. in any way.
> 
> I just think we set ourselves up when we EXPECT someone outside of a willing giving commitment to us / knowing & tasting of their character to *care* or *DO* anything for us...


I think that is often what happens, SA. The woman is left holding the bag, along with whatever shame society puts on her. 

I am just not one who is going to give the man a pass.


----------



## TiggyBlue

hambone said:


> Do you believe in equality? Equal rights?


Yh I do, but not everyone will be treated equally with either gender (or can even be biologically equal in some area's). That's why knowing about consequences and preventing situations happening is so important IMO.


----------



## committed4ever

Wow what an interesting thread! From feminist Dad to kids having sex (or not) to the unfairness of unplanned pregnancy and the decision that follows.

SA, CM, LOVED your posts early on about fathers/kids and sexuality. I never heard of the sex "agency" stuff but in my opinion 13 year olds are nowhere near mature enough to handle having sex and should be taught that it is for adults in a loving relationship. It doesn't matter that they might end up doing it, they might end up smoking crack too but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be highly discouraged. I think going along with sex at such an early age makes the child vulnerable to being taken advantage of. 

Loved the 2nd shirt about the daughters and the shirt about the sons. The first shirt was TOTALLY lame. Who needs a Dad like that? Although it's understandable since his daughter is 20. But I'm with whoever kept reiterating their daughter wouldn't be dating until she is 25! LOL!


----------



## committed4ever

hambone said:


> JLD. Who do you think looks more towards their wedding day, young men, or young women?
> 
> Who spend more time fantasizing... planning, dreaming about getting married?


What an intriguing question! I think it would make an interesting thread. So Hambone, what DO men think and feel in anticipation of their wedding day?

I know for me, the wedding got totally out of hand because I wimped out and let my Aunties and sisters take over. If I had it to do over again I would elope.


----------



## jld

I think this is the thing, ham: Dh was very committed right from the start, and I did not need a big wedding. Too costly, and my family was in turmoil, anyway.

We ended up marrying at the court commissioner's office, with about ten other people present. The whole weekend cost about $500.

It was still the happiest day of my life.


----------



## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> What an intriguing question! I think it would make an interesting thread. So Hambone, what DO men think and feel in anticipation of their wedding day?
> 
> I know for me, the wedding got totally out of hand because I wimped out and let my Aunties and sisters take over. If I had it to do over again I would elope.


I remember in the last few days leading up to my wedding day, and on my wedding day,
I was very afraid.
I am usually a very confident person.

I was not afraid in a bad way ,maybe apprehensive is a better word, but I was nervous about what type of husband I'd be.
Maybe like the apprehensiveness one feels just before a final exam , although they have studied and are confident, things happen.

I was also nervous about finally giving up completely on what my perception of " freedom" was.

It was nerve wracking for me. 

I just wanted the entire ceremony and after party to be over with so that I could get on with the business of being a married man.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> Your Husband is certainly unique.. it must have been that in his lifetime he has seen the women around him *more* taken advantage of (I think we talked about this!) and as you say Vulnerable... he is on the grand scale of that Protector / Provider type.... He was obviously very turned off by what he saw or experienced and this left a profound effect on him at a young age... *
> 
> I just think we often speak out of what we have seen or experienced ourselves -and it becomes ingrained in us..
> *
> I wish I would have seen that...
> 
> I really FEEL ''*I get it"*.. I was thinking I had a sex addiction when I hit 42.. (was on an addiction forum before I landed here)...I was too embarrassed to REALLY come out & speak how HIGH my sex drive was, it was causing "sex issues" with my Husband.....*I could not get enough*....
> 
> I had physical symptoms...like our teen sons in puberty..my body temp was Hotter.. fouler smelling underarms suddenly .... a burst of energy, I hardly needed sleep, wanted to jump him 3 times a day... needed 0 foreplay for 8 straight months (If I had a rod, it would have NEVER went down!)......Porn suddenly became electric to me, shivers right to my private parts... we rented it !...it was so bad, I could hardly concentrate, I was undressing every good looking man I seen in public...I could NOT keep my hands off my Husband.....(oh he was Enjoying all this LUST directed at him)...everything else seemed so mundane... I lived around his erections...I felt GREAT, a new confidence came over me -my new language was flirting.....
> 
> If they could bottle what happened to me and sell it to Low drive women.. that'd be bigger than Viagra!
> 
> I was beginning to wonder if I had some form of Bi-polar hyper sexuality .. I was loving it ... but it was tormenting at the same time..because the "need" was ever present....if he would have pushed me away, I don't think I could have handled it.. it was THAT INTENSE. That RUSH lasted 8 months.. (My crazy story)... so I feel I have a good understanding of what men go through ..
> 
> I can say this.. my H had WAY MORE restraint - and self control if one compared me in MY Prime to His in HIS Prime though... I looked at him with the straightest of faces and asked him "how in the hell did you DO that??" putting himself down as much as he did in our past.. I suddenly realized how much I hurt him.. but it also made me MAD feeling he should have talked to me, let me know how he felt..came on to me like a freight train sort of thing (like I was)... Darn him...
> 
> He told me he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex"....Oh that was sweet....but I didnt care if it was "Just about sex" during THAT time..we both joked how I needed my "FIX" many times during that phase.. that was my Great awakening !


Agree SA and you make a good point. In my experience I have seen far more selfishness from women than men but that's my own life experience. We each have our own view.


----------



## committed4ever

Caribbean Man said:


> I remember in the last few days leading up to my wedding day, and on my wedding day,
> I was very afraid.
> I am usually a very confident person.
> 
> I was not afraid in a bad way ,maybe apprehensive is a better word, but I was nervous about what type of husband I'd be.
> Maybe like the apprehensiveness one feels just before a final exam , although they have studied and are confident, things happen.
> 
> I was also nervous about finally giving up completely on what my perception of " freedom" was.
> 
> It was nerve wracking for me.
> 
> I just wanted the entire ceremony and after party to be over with so that I could get on with the business of being a married man.


So did it show, or did you manage to smile your way through it? How old were you? 

My thoughts are that most men would be nervous wrecks but my H was just the opposite. He seemed to enjoy it much more than I did and seemed genuinely happy. I loved the vows, and our first dance and that was about it from the whole 5 hour affair.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> I think that is often what happens, SA. The woman is left holding the bag, along with whatever shame society puts on her.
> 
> *I am just not one who is going to give the man a pass*.


It's not that I would give him a pass.. and think he's just a decent Guy.. (if we are talking about walking away from a pregnant woman & bulking at his responsibilities to care for his own child)...and I DO feel every man has a right to a paternity test to KNOW he was not duped by a woman...

I used the term "Prick" for a reason.. those type of men only look out for their own interests, uncaring, unfeeling, irresponsible, Fvck 'em & leave 'em type... and think little of it... there is no way to have an inkling of respect for this sort of man...

But that's why I wouldn't want him in my life at all... If I was someone he could just toss away...Oh she is just another lay.. ...this is so severely UGLY to me... that I'd want to vomit him from my life.. so it's not so much a Pass.. but a Mistake (on my part for allowing him IN pre-maturely).... before I learned who he was...and allowed time for that emotional connection ..(that I care about) to grow...with attachment strings leading to a shared commitment that is felt and alive between 2 people ...that he wanted my heart & soul as well as my body. 

A young girl needs to stick to her boundaries to protect herself... 

Shame.. in a moment ...then it would turn to Guilt for being so stupid ....then you learn from it...like that song.. You live - You Learn...to be more careful next time around..



> *hambone said:* *Who do you think looks more towards their wedding day, young men, or young women?
> 
> Who spend more time fantasizing... planning, dreaming about getting married*?


 In our situation, my H would have married me at 18.. He was ALL IN....he knew what he wanted / he is so the marrying type ...it was me who held that back a few yrs...as I was so young & never dated anyone else...I had to be sure..

Honesty, I never thought I'd have a Large wedding.. ..no one on his side or mine ever did that...but something was stirring in me.. *I wanted that*...I feel I would have regretted it if we didn't go all out...we weren't the type to pamper ourselves at all.. yet we waited so long (almost 7 yrs )...it was OUR TIME, & I wanted it to go off with a BANG.. 

I so enjoyed planning every detail... it was a walking on the clouds.. celebrating with family and friends...







...but then we blew off our Honeymoon.. Ha ha


----------



## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> So did it show, or did you manage to smile your way through it? How old were you?
> 
> *My thoughts are that most men would be nervous wrecks* .


Yes , you are correct imo.

Whenever I'm that nervous about anything I usually act very calmly and try to think straight.

Luckily , my mother and her parents did most of the catering and other peripheral stuff.

But I managed to keep very calm.

She was extremely happy and she was constantly smiling.

We had lots of guest and a traditional church wedding, I was just 24 yrs old. I remember after the exchange of vows, when the pastor sid " _I now pronounce you man and wife, you may kiss the bride.."_, I was so nervous, I simply gave her a peck on her lips. She pulled me back in for a real kiss,lol.

That was a sign of things to come.

But yes, most men I know said that they were very nervous, but my wife was very happy, and in hindsight, I think her confidence reassured me quite a lot.


----------



## jld

You have very good boundaries, SA, and you are transmitting that to your daughter, I am sure.

I don't think I had the right values growing up, SA. Being with dh has changed my life so much for the better. I am so grateful to him.

But if we had had to be equal right from the start, it would not have worked. I was not as "clean" as he was. But fortunately for me, he did not judge, and just chose to see the good that was in me, and nurture it.

That is the kind of man I want for every woman. I have known many hurting women in my life, many who were taken advantage of. That is not what I want for them.

I think by having higher standards for men, we can improve the lives of women and children. And I think men will be pleased at what they can become when someone expects something of them, too.

Obviously, my worldview comes out of my own life experience, mainly what I saw in the lives of my parents and ten older siblings, growing up. Dh saw similar things in his family. I am not sure we ever entirely shake off our upbringing.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> She was extremely happy and she was constantly smiling.


Lol, I can totally relate to that. I hope every woman here can!


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> I think this is the thing, ham: Dh was very committed right from the start, and I did not need a big wedding. Too costly, and my family was in turmoil, anyway.
> 
> We ended up marrying at the court commissioner's office, with about ten other people present. The whole weekend cost about $500.
> 
> It was still the happiest day of my life.



I got married at my MIL's house in a borrowed suit. We had 50 guest and spent less than $500. 

And it was the happiest day of my life.


My question was, on average, do you think boys/men grow up day dreaming about the day they get married? Like a lot of girls do?

Is there a "groom" magazine? Do they have Groom fairs? Do you see pictures of the groom in the wedding pictures in the paper on Sunday..

When I was in college... they did this thing, called a candle light. We'd hear about it at supper. All the girls would be giddy! Passing the word around so everybody knew.. "We're having a candlelight' tonight!!!" All the girls would get together in a dimly lit room at their dorm.. they'd pass a candle from girl to girl... it might go around the room 3 or 4 times.. finally... a girl would blow it out... That was the way they announced that someone was engaged. Never heard of a candle light for the prospective groom.

I'm not good at being subtle.. People tell me I'm too blunt.. Please forgive my bluntness..

Do you really think that boys look forward to getting married with the same anticipation that girls do?

The last wedding we went to... we were friends of the groom, they had 8 bridesmaids.. When you attend a big wedding like that... what are the chances that the huge wedding was the grooms idea?


----------



## that_girl

over20 said:


> I agree. But a single mum becomes a single mum sometimes by choice..


And the ones who do it by choice usually don't complain about it.

I'd say MOST women are not single moms by choice. A man left.


----------



## jld

My husband was looking forward to it, ham. Maybe not the wedding so much, though I think he would have liked a traditional Catholic family wedding. 

But from what I hear, he is the exception among men. He also puts children first, and has tremendous respect for mothers. He is very slow to blame women for society's problems, ham.

And he has no tolerance for men who will not commit, and who use women instead. 

But maybe I am missing your point? Please just be blunt. I don't think I am getting it.


----------



## hambone

that_girl said:


> And the ones who do it by choice usually don't complain about it.
> 
> I'd say MOST women are not single moms by choice. A man left.


But, it's my understand that most divorces are initiated by women.


----------



## that_girl

hambone said:


> But, it's my understand that most divorces are initiated by women.


I don't know about that.

Divorce is tricky. My female friends who initiated divorce also had good reason. Cheating, abuse, one friend's husband had even joined an apocalyptic cult  Yea.

I'd never initiate divorce willy nilly. But I will be soon (or finishing it) because my husband simply lies and breaks his promises and won't get the help he needs to be in a marriage. Sure I could sit here day in and day out feeling alone just to keep the marriage in tact, but...screw that. He's had 3 chances over 3 years and he's done nada.


----------



## coffee4me

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is how I feel... Too many people set themselves UP *expecting* others will "DO THE RIGHT THING"....if we had a penny for how many times that goes sour, we'd all be millionaires.... if one has casual sex, basically they do NOT know that person or what they are made of.. so to expect ANYTHING from a night of passion.... to me is laughable, naive ...and this is what mistakes are made of...
> 
> The whole scenario would disgust me on the deepest of levels...at that point I could see me wanting his rights terminated ..on paper.. and having the Prick completely washed from my life..as I wouldn't want my child to be seen as a BURDEN.. in any way.
> 
> I just think we set ourselves up when we EXPECT someone outside of a willing giving commitment to us / knowing & tasting of their character to *care* or *DO* anything for us...


This is very true! But it goes both ways. 

I have spoken to my son about his lack of control if he gets a girl pregnant. His life decisions will be squarely placed in another's hand. He lives with her choices. 

I took that a step further and explained that if she chooses to have the child then he will also not have control over how the child is parented in the other household. So if she chooses not to step up and be an appropriate parent to the child even thou she chose to keep the child that is a consequence he and the child will pay. 

I express the financial commitment of unwanted pregnancy but for him it's not the biggest consequence. To him the biggest consequence would be not being able to raise his child full time or ensure the child's welfare when the child isn't with him.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> My husband was looking forward to it, ham. Maybe not the wedding so much, though I think he would have liked a traditional Catholic family wedding.
> 
> But from what I hear, he is the exception among men. He also puts children first, and has tremendous respect for mothers. He is very slow to blame women for society's problems, ham.
> 
> And he has no tolerance for men who will not commit, and who use women instead.
> 
> But maybe I am missing your point? Please just be blunt. I don't think I am getting it.


I see a LOT of young girls who are just dying to get married. They will jump through hoops trying to get a guy to marry them. They put themselves out there... in their eagerness to get married... the make themselves vulnerable to being used. 

So, they jump through hoops to get a guy to marry them with no forethought to actually having to keep up that front.. to keep jumping through those hoops once they are married.

I've been to weddings where the bride and groom are fighting like cats and dogs at the wedding. 

I know from personal experience, my first wife married me for all the wrong reasons. Once that wedding day passed.. she totally relaxed.. No sex, no cooking, no cleaning, no washing clothes, no going out dancing, no camping, no nothing. She kept up that front long enough to get me to marry her.

And, my son... He has never had to pursue a girl friend. They pursue him... and, I've seen the kind of pressure these girls put on him to marry them. The current girl friend says, "Nothing less than a 2 caret diamond looks good on my finger!" 

IMO, if things aren't heading towards marriage in 18 months or so, the girl needs to seriously consider cutting ties and moving on. 

One person can only abuse another person if the abused allows it.

I really don't think guys (most guys) are afraid of commitment. When a guy meets a girl he hard down loves... he will commit. What he's saying is, "I don't want to be committed to YOU!"

Be nice.. focus on the issues.


----------



## that_girl

Ohhh yes. I do talk to my daughter about chasing guys. We read anthropological books though. lol. Men like to do the chasing. Women do too but...well, it goes into a lot of stuff. No need to chase men. If a man is interested, you'll know. I guess that sounds old fashioned but, biologically we are still humans at the core.


----------



## hambone

that_girl said:


> I don't know about that.
> 
> Divorce is tricky. My female friends who initiated divorce also had good reason. Cheating, abuse, one friend's husband had even joined an apocalyptic cult  Yea.
> 
> I'd never initiate divorce willy nilly. But I will be soon (or finishing it) because my husband simply lies and breaks his promises and won't get the help he needs to be in a marriage. Sure I could sit here day in and day out feeling alone just to keep the marriage in tact, but...screw that. He's had 3 chances over 3 years and he's done nada.


Remember that thread we had a while back... Why do women reconcile so much more frequently than men do? 

My first wife initiated divorce with me. I didn't do anything wrong. It was her that changed the day we got married... No sex, no cooking, no cleaning, no nothing. She a SAHW (no kids). 

In my case.. I think she married me with an exit strategy. Stay married as long as she could stand it and take everything she could get her hands on on the way out... It was strictly a financial decision... the getting married part.

But, we need to look at the bigger picture.. no anecdotal evidence.


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> One person can only abuse another person if the abused allows it.
> 
> Yes, and this is the advantage of modern society. Women do not have to accept abuse. There is a way out.
> 
> That is why it is so important for girls to get a good education. We don't want them to feel trapped.
> 
> I really don't think guys (most guys) are afraid of commitment. When a guy meets a girl he hard down loves... he will commit. What he's saying is, "I don't want to be committed to YOU!"
> 
> Yes, I do think that when a man falls, he falls hard. That was certainly dh.
> 
> And a smart girl will not accept to be used. But not all of us are smart, ham.
> 
> Be nice.. focus on the issues. Not sure what this means.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> But if we had had to be equal right from the start, it would not have worked. I was not as "clean" as he was. *But fortunately for me, he did not judge, and just chose to see the good that was in me, and nurture it.*


 I can see why he fell in love with you.. you have a wonderful heart.. you were so honest with him, it blew him away /probably knocked him down (ha ha)..... manipulative secretive women don't DO THAT [email protected]#$% ...I hope your H shares one day on here..the whole ..."IF JLD was a User car salesman....".. OMG ...I LOVED THAT !..and it speaks it all @#$

You are one of a kind girl !.. he knew he might travel the world and not find another like you in his path..so he swooped you up. 



> *But maybe I am missing your point? Please just be blunt. I don't think I am getting it.*


 Actually I am not getting his point either.. I mean.. Ok.. I agree, men could care less about a big wedding. they just want HOT SEX...for the rest of their life with that one special women or they wouldn't even THINK of getting married. ... this I will BUY... and if they want children.. being the honorable type.. they will marry...

BUt what is wrong with us women dreaming, being giddy Romantic about this beautiful day we look forward to ..with the man we are deeply in love with.. wanting to make it official.... I looked upon whom I married as one of the largest factors in my overall happiness with Life.. this is my other half ! 

It should be a celebration of 2 souls together.. I think it's beautiful.. why shouldn't there be music , flowers and dancing !! I know my H appreciated my enthusiasm here ..whether one wanted 3 people on their special day or 400 , so long as we don't loose sight of what brought us together.. go for it !



> *Hambone said* I see a LOT of young girls who are just dying to get married. They will jump through hoops trying to get a guy to marry them. They put themselves out there... in their eagerness to get married... the make themselves vulnerable to being used.
> 
> *So, they jump through hoops to get a guy to marry them with no forethought to actually having to keep up that front.. to keep jumping through those hoops once they are married*.
> 
> I've been to weddings where the bride and groom are fighting like cats and dogs at the wedding.
> 
> *I know from personal experience, my first wife married me for all the wrong reasons. Once that wedding day passed.. she totally relaxed.. No sex, no cooking, no cleaning, no washing clothes, no going out dancing, no camping, no nothing. She kept up that front long enough to get me to marry her.*
> 
> And, my son... He has never had to pursue a girl friend. They pursue him... and, I've seen the kind of pressure these girls put on him to marry them. The current girl friend says, "*Nothing less than a 2 caret diamond looks good on my finger!"*


Ok NOW I get it ..Hambone is speaking out of his own personal experiences...sounds like a *Bait & switch* ...how his 1st wife let it all go after the big wedding... so yeah..

I don't feel a woman should ever chase a man...I would feel something was lost on our relationship if I did that.. I really wanted the man to pursue me and make his intentions known.. there is a sense of security in that ... *for me anyway*... 

I just wonder how your son feels about that comment ..you have mentioned it before.. other red flags Hambone, in her attitude ..her expectations ??

I wouldn't like that either and I'd be concerned.. ya know..about what is really important to her.. it shouldn't be about the size of the Rock.. but how much she adores your son..and wants to make a life with him... if that was me I'd rather have a smaller diamond and put all of our savings stashed away for the home we'd be looking to buy & settle down in...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

coffee4me said:


> This is very true! But it goes both ways.
> 
> I have spoken to my son about his lack of control if he gets a girl pregnant. *His life decisions will be squarely placed in another's hand. He lives with her choices*.
> 
> I took that a step further and explained that if she chooses to have the child then he will also not have control over how the child is parented in the other household. *So if she chooses not to step up and be an appropriate parent to the child even thou she chose to keep the child that is a consequence he and the child will pay. *
> 
> I express the financial commitment of unwanted pregnancy but for him it's not the biggest consequence. * To him the biggest consequence would be not being able to raise his child full time or ensure the child's welfare when the child isn't with him.*


EXCELLENT COffee4Me ...and what a wonderful son you have... very smart young man!!

We have visited these scenarios also.. because let's face it.. this is how the cookie crumbles - for far too many....the guys hands are tied... and it can eat him up inside... it's just not the best for children.. we *need *to care about the Children ...


----------



## hambone

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't feel a woman should ever chase a man...I would feel something was lost on our relationship if I did that.. I really wanted the man to pursue me and make his intentions known.. there is a sense of security in that ... *for me anyway*...
> 
> I just wonder how your son feels about that comment ..you have mentioned it before.. other red flags Hambone, in her attitude ..her expectations ??
> 
> I wouldn't like that either and I'd be concerned.. ya know..about what is really important to her.. it shouldn't be about the size of the Rock.. but how much she adores your son..and wants to make a life with him... if that was me I'd rather have a smaller diamond and put all of our savings stashed away for the home we'd be looking to buy & settle down in...


I think marriages do work out better when the man pursues the woman.. But, by observation, I see way more girls, because of their desire to "have their day"... be the center of attention at the wedding, I see them pursuing the boys. And, in the process, they are subject to being abused... as in, strung along for years in hope against hopes that they will eventually get married. 

My son tells me and his mother that he's just "having fun".. This girl had her eye on him when he was dating another girl. As soon as they broke up.. she broke up with her boyfriend and put a full court press on my son. He likes her.. But, I don't see it leading to marriage.. In fact, I see the relationship winding down. 

The main problem I see between them is her competitiveness. My son want's to share his favorite things to do and such.. and she's always competing... She is just not impressed.. she's seen better. she's seen bigger.. she's tasted better etc. She certainly doesn't idolize my son.. And, she competes with my wife for his attention. Not an endearing quality for a prospective DIL.


----------



## jld

Have you suggested they break up, ham?


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Have you suggested they break up, ham?


No I haven't. He's doing fine. I see him pulling away... getting tired of her manipulation.

She didn't come home with him this weekend... And he doesn't seem upset about it at all.

It will end soon enough.

I have given my children ever increasing responsibility growing up. I want the transition into adulthood to be a short step for them.

This is part of growing up. 


the one I'm worried about right now is my DD. She has her first boyfriend... She's only 18... They'be been dating about 18 months.

I had many long talks, back when she was 15 and 16... before she started dating this kid... about boys... About, letting them chase you.. NEVER... EVER change jobs or move because of a boy, unless he's your husband. 

It was kind of disappointing.. and hurtful... that I wasn't the #1 man in her life full time. We were really close when she was growing up.. But, now, she's going to school full time (making almost all A's), working part time (but they keep calling her in and some weeks she get's 10hrs of OT. ) and dating this boy... Whom, BTW, lives in Kentucky (he grew up in our town but his dad got transferred before his Junior year in HS. They grew up knowing each other. They played soccer from about 2nd grade on but only noticed each other about 6 months before he moved. 

Right now, the young man is at basic training.. he joined the Air Force Reserves to pay for college.

Anyway.. that's the back story. I can only hope that I've packed enough information into her that she'll do the right thing...

Having both a son and a daughter... helps me see both sides of the situation.


----------



## that_girl

Ham! Your children sound wonderful  You've done a good job.

My daughter will be 15 this year and we're getting so close. She and I have had our issues for as long as I can remember but in the last 2 years, it's been great.

I dread the day she moves out but I prep her for it anyway.


----------



## hambone

that_girl said:


> Ham! Your children sound wonderful  You've done a good job.
> 
> My daughter will be 15 this year and we're getting so close. She and I have had our issues for as long as I can remember but in the last 2 years, it's been great.
> 
> I dread the day she moves out but I prep her for it anyway.


Thank you!


I've got great kids. Both were honor students.. never had a speeding ticket, never had a wreck.. never had a phone call from a cop in the middle of the night..

This fall, baby girl goes away to college... gonna miss her..


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I can imagine. I am grateful for my two knuckleheads. When one goes to college, my other will only be in 4th grade  I do like my children so much more now that they're older. lol.


----------



## jld

Jmo, but I would not feel comfortable if I saw my son using a girl. I would have to speak up.

Just not a fan of casual sex, I guess.


----------



## coffee4me

jld said:


> Jmo, but I would not feel comfortable if I saw my son using a girl. I would have to speak up.
> 
> Just not a fan of casual sex, I guess.


I didn't get the impression that Ham's son was using this girl. He likes her and he's spending time with her. The more he gets to know her perhaps he finds she's not very compatible with him and he starts backing off. 

Why is that using her?


----------



## hambone

that_girl said:


> Yea, I can imagine. I am grateful for my two knuckleheads. When one goes to college, my other will only be in 4th grade  I do like my children so much more now that they're older. lol.


I have thoroughly enjoyed raising my children.. I've often said that I wished we could roll the clock back and do it all again!

I asked my wife the other day.. "what do you say we adopt.. and do it again???"

She said "no"... didn't really even ponder the point... Then again, we're in our late 50's... One of the causalities of waiting so long to have children... I may not live long enough to enjoy grand kids... Heck, I might not even life long enough to walk my daughter down the aisle.


----------



## jld

coffee4me said:


> I didn't get the impression that Ham's son was using this girl. He likes her and he's spending time with her. The more he gets to know her perhaps he finds she's not very compatible with him and he starts backing off.
> 
> Why is that using her?


She wants to get married. He does not. Ham has talked about it in other posts.

The way I understand it, the boy is happy to use her for sex, for as long as she feels like waiting around.


----------



## that_girl

You will live long enough. Don't say that. >:O

I say that because my dad passed at 62...before my sister's and my wedding. before our next babies. So don't say that.

I am over raising children. LOL I said that wrong. I mean, the newborn, infant, toddler stage. I do like this school age stuff. My youngest got promoted to 1st grade from pre-K because she was working beyond a kinder level! yea!  

Know what relieved my need to nurture? My puppy. She's 20 months now but we got her at 10 weeks. A boxador. Omfg. Yea. Always my baby


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Jmo, but I would not feel comfortable if I saw my son using a girl. I would have to speak up.
> 
> Just not a fan of casual sex, I guess.


I'm kinda getting tired of her abusing my son... You know, him taking out to eat all the time.. all these concert tickets, taking her camping and canoeing... buying all her groceries .. buying her gifts... etc. etc. etc.

He mows yards on weekends. She helped him once... and expects half the money... and for him to take her out to eat...

When I say she pursued him... I mean that in every sense of the word. She was throwing herself at him when he was dating his previous girl friend and he was rebuffing her.


----------



## that_girl

The girl plays a role too.

She can leave.


----------



## coffee4me

jld said:


> She wants to get married. He does not. Ham has talked about it in other posts.
> 
> The way I understand it, the boy is happy to use her for sex, for as long as she feels like waiting around.


I can see where you are coming from jld but if it were my daughter, I'd tell her she is the one putting herself in the situation. 

"why should he buy the cow if he's getting the milk for free" is what I would tell her. She is the one giving up the sex with no promise of commitment. She is in control of her body and if she is waiting around for a commitment and giving up the sex , she owns that- not him.


----------



## jld

He gives her money, she gives him sex. Is that pretty much it?

There is not going to be any commitment. 

Yes, she can leave, and by the sound of it, she may be. I hope so.

We all have a little different values in this area. I think it takes a special kind of man to say, You know, I could use you, but I am not going to. I don't love you, and you deserve an intimate relationship with someone who does love you. Wait for him.

That is the kind of young men Dh and I are aiming to raise, anyway. That is the kind of man dh is. 

That is what I want for other women, too.


----------



## over20

TiggyBlue said:


> I agree that is totally biologically unfair on men but (and I don't mean to sound callous) biology isn't fair.
> It's not fair that from two people having sex a women either has the choice of aborts (which wouldn't be a walk in the park for many) or carry a baby full term and it isn't fair that due to being the carrier of that child could abort a mans baby.
> 
> All you can do is give kids the tool of information and consequences and hope they apply it so either gender hopefully minimizes the risk of ever being put into these type of situations.


:iagree:


----------



## coffee4me

jld said:


> He gives her money, she gives him sex. Is that pretty much it?
> 
> There is not going to be any commitment.
> 
> Yes, she can leave, and by the sound of it, she may be. I hope so.
> 
> *We all have a little different values in this area. I think it takes a special kind of man to say, You know, I could use you, but I am not going to. I don't love you, and you deserve an intimate relationship with someone who does love you. Wait for him.*
> 
> That is the kind of young men Dh and I are aiming to raise, anyway. That is the kind of man dh is.
> 
> That is what I want for other women, too.


jld I hope my son would do the same but I also realize that there will be a learning curb in relationships before he comes to realize some things. I also hope my daughter would never put herself in the position to be waiting around "thinking" some guy is going to marry her.


----------



## jld

I think we can point some things out, though. We can start with: Is that how you would like to be treated, if you were a female? Is that how you would like to see your mother or sister treated?

And my favorite: Is that really the kind of person you want to be?


----------



## that_girl

I think it all comes from leading a life of example for your children as well.

I know my kids watch me. I try to instill a value of being content in life and yet always striving to be better than you were yesterday.

As far as accepting crumbs from people when it comes to love and happiness, that is something I am working on but I realized I watch my mom accept crumbs from her marriage and I also accepted crumbs from her. Seems only natural I would think that's all I deserve in a marriage.

So I look at that. And I talk about it with my 15 year old...about crumbs and why I no longer talk to my mother.

I don't want my kids to make my same stupid mistakes. Sure they'll make mistakes but I don't want them to be like me...WAITING for someone to love them. No. I should have just loved myself long ago. And that is what I am trying to instill into my daughters. Love yourself more than ANYONE. That's not to say be selfish and show no compassion, etc...it means VALUE YOURSELF more than other people do. Don't wait for someone to love you...fill that void yourself. Don't try to force someone to love you...value your worth. Know your worth. Love YOU.


----------



## hambone

that_girl said:


> I think it all comes from leading a life of example for your children as well.
> 
> I know my kids watch me. I try to instill a value of being content in life and yet always striving to be better than you were yesterday.
> 
> As far as accepting crumbs from people when it comes to love and happiness, that is something I am working on but I realized I watch my mom accept crumbs from her marriage and I also accepted crumbs from her. Seems only natural I would think that's all I deserve in a marriage.
> 
> So I look at that. And I talk about it with my 15 year old...about crumbs and why I no longer talk to my mother.
> 
> I don't want my kids to make my same stupid mistakes. Sure they'll make mistakes but I don't want them to be like me...WAITING for someone to love them. No. I should have just loved myself long ago. And that is what I am trying to instill into my daughters. Love yourself more than ANYONE. That's not to say be selfish and show no compassion, etc...it means VALUE YOURSELF more than other people do. Don't wait for someone to love you...fill that void yourself. Don't try to force someone to love you...value your worth. Know your worth. Love YOU.


I have preached to my daughter to "be yourself... and let some boy fall in love with YOU!"

I have told both of my kids, "nobody loves you more than your mom and dad... no one wants to see you be more successful and happy... than you mom and dad.. One of these days.. when you've got a tough choice to make... remember that."

I've spent a lot of time talking to my kids about what's important.. family, friends, etc. and not material things. 

To that end, I've talked them a lot about how to handle money.


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> I have preached to my daughter to "be yourself... and let some boy fall in love with YOU!"


:iagree:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Jmo, but I would not feel comfortable if I saw my son using a girl. I would have to speak up.
> 
> Just not a fan of casual sex, I guess.


This wasn't casual sex but imagine how over the top it was.. good friend of mine, she has a teenage son. ..him & his GF has been sexually active for awhile now.... I love this lady.. she's great.. we talk about it all.. and I guess her son is pretty OPEN TOO.. I can't remember how in the world this came up in conversation (it was a while ago).. but I guess he told his Mom that he did his GF on the kitchen table while her MOM was sleeping in the living room...

My mouth did hang open a bit ..we were comparing our sons and getting a big laugh over this.. as our oldest is still a virgin...and hers, a lot younger is going to town -- I think he wants to get caught by a MOM !


----------



## jld

I hope our kids wait for sex until the find the right one. I hope they will wait until they have a means of earning a living.

I am probably the most idealistic, conservative person on TAM.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> I hope our kids wait for sex until the find the right one. I hope they will wait until they have a means of earning a living.
> 
> I am probably the most idealistic, conservative person on TAM.


My kids were raised in church.

All you can do is do your best to instill good values and morals into your kids...

The harder you try to control them.. the harder they are going to rebel. And, at some point, you are going to lose control.

We have not tried to control our kids. We've let them make their choices.. after we've presented and explained their options. We want our kids to know that we are on their side.


----------



## jld

We cannot control them, but we can certainly share our thoughts with them.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> We cannot control them, but we can certainly share our thoughts with them.


You can for a while.... And a lot of people do control their kids... 

Whip them constantly.

Threaten them... yell and scream at them.. 

Control them by intimidating them..

All that does is built resentment.. At some point... that child is going to do the exact opposite of what you want them to do... just to prove they have free will...

And, at some point. you can no longer control them.

One of the biggest mistakes I see parents making if fixing their child's mistakes... and then fussing, threatening, etc. that if they do it again.... you are going to actually punish them!


----------



## that_girl

I was raised in the church. Didn't buy into it after age 12 but that didn't matter. Still had to go to church (shoot me in the face).

That being said, the teachings did help me. And some healthy fear of my mother finding out....I waited for sex until almost 21. I was in college. I had dated this young man for 11 months prior to any sex or sexual contact...kissing and holding hands was our norm.

I had yet to make a living of my own, but I was responsible and used 3 types of birth control...pill, foam and condom. That's the best we could do. It was intimate and fun. We dated 4 years....then he slept with my best friend in a "drunken night" after one of our fights and that was it (she did play a part too and I haven't talked to her since either).

I hope my daughters wait like I did. Not for marriage, but for a mature, grown up sex life. Heartbreaks will happen. But I'd much rather them go through the big heartbreaks that come from a break up where you've shared your bodies--- at an older age. Not as a teen. Definitely not in my home. That's just common respect. I never had sex in any parents' home. I had an apartment (our school's dorms at the time) through college and that was that.

I do talk to my daughter about the biological effects of sex on a woman because I want her to know how sex and sharing her body BONDS HER to her mate. How semen actually bonds a woman to that man for better care of offspring, etc. It's not something to do lightly. And If you do choose to just have sex willy nilly, you can't say you didn't know. Just be safe. 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. We can be parents and teach and guide and then we have to let them go and live. ...and yet be here for the times they need some more guidance or just an ear to listen, without judgement.

That's what I want with my kids. I never had that with my mom. She found out I kissed a boy at almost 17 and hell broke loose. Lame.


----------



## that_girl

Awww SA, the feels 

My daughter is an old soul. We talk about everything. No judgement. She talks to me about issues she's having with friends and I give her insight. Honest to god, you may not want to hear this, insight. And she reflects and makes the best decision for her. Sometimes her decisions are what works, sometimes not. When they do, we rejoice together! When they don't, we talk about it again and i listen and remind her of the insight. So she learns. How can you learn if you don't fail sometimes?

My mother never took my life seriously. Teenage drama is REAL! It's VERY REAL TO THEM. I respect that. It's how we learn to be adults. I never tell her to "get over it" as my mom did...nor do I fill her with empty cliches-- "Oh well, their loss." or other such nonsense. Her life is REAL. Her feelings matter.

I always dreamed of having a mother like my friends had. Mothers who enjoyed their daughters' lives and listened and let their daughters be TEENAGERS. Not my mom. But since I never had that mom, I am that mom. I don't mourn my mother any longer. We can't choose family. We CAN, however, learn from the people around us and choose to be better and cut toxicity from our lives.

Growing up is hard. Watching my daughter mature is one of the most beautiful gifts I've ever been given. Having her talk to me about everything is just....I can't even explain it.

But I fostered it when she was a child. I never shut her down. I listened to her little stories of little things and responded with insight. Her life matters to me. And she knows it.

I don't think there is ANYTHING she can do or say to me that would make me turn my back on her or meet her with sarcastic judgement. Drugs? Pregnancy? Sexuality issues? Bring it.

My journey is just beginning with my 5 year old. She is a different breed than my older one :lol: She is just....a diva. I think she came out with a boa and glitter. :rofl: But I do my work. I plant the seeds. I am consistent NOW and it's hard NOW (just as with my older daughter) but I have seen that my labor PAYS OFF.

My children are not my children. They are adults in training. I am here to guide them, respect them, help them, make them see their errors and help them through it. I try to foster compassion and empathy and a strong sense of self. It's hard sometimes. But...worth it. They are not OF me. They just came THROUGH me.

ETA: I am also happy to say that my house is the house the kids hang out in.  I always wanted that but NO ONE liked my mother  My daughter has a friend who is here weeks on end because her and her dad live in a garage...poor  So she is welcomed any time. I love it. I'm that mom with that house. It's amazing


----------



## that_girl

Oh, it should have read, "Honest-to-god-you-may-not-want-to-hear-this" insight.

I don't mince words with her. She doesn't mince words with me.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> Oh, it should have read, "Honest-to-god-you-may-not-want-to-hear-this" insight.
> 
> I don't mince words with her. She doesn't mince words with me.


IN other words... she is just keeping it real.. bracing you just a little.. but she's gonna lay it on you anyway.. and you do the same back...you both have an appreciation for that.. wouldn't have it any other way.. 

We lay it all out there too.. Honestly...alot of THIS is our form of humor and Banter.... keeps things entertaining...and genuine at the same time!


----------



## jld

Awww . . . such good moms here.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Your daughter doesn't know where babies come from at age 8?
> 
> There are basic reproduction facts that small children can easily understand without knowing anything about "sex". I'd advise you to move toward giving her that education. By age 10 she may start menstruating, some do. She needs information about her body well before that time.


I started my period at 10. Thankfully, my mom had had the girl talk with me a couple of years before so I knew what was going on. The talk itself weirded me out a little(she...didn't really know how to explain menstruation and did a bad job of it), but it made sense when I hit puberty. I had a great fifth grade teacher around that time who really helped me understand what was going on in my body. 

The rest of this conversation is interesting, because I had absolutely no interest in sex. Or making out. Or even kissing in general. I was "16 and never been kissed". And when I did have my first kiss/make out session, I abhorred it. I had no sexual/passionate feelings whatsoever. 

For me, those feelings hit after I turned 18. Then, it was all I could think about when awake and asleep. I wish my mom had told me about masturbation, because it would have helped me _a lot_ back then. But my mother's philosophy was to tell me as little as possible, something I did _not_ appreciate as a sexually active adult.


----------



## treyvion

John Lee said:


> FWIW, I've never heard a woman say "I'm really glad I lost my virginity at 13" or "I wish I had lost my virginity at 13 instead of at __."


In some REALMS they are! And even expect their daughter to end it around the same time.


----------



## ntamph

My parents are still unable to have a conversation with me about sex and I'm 30.

They made sure that it was impossible for me to be in situations where I could experience normal things that happen as you grow up (first kiss, make out session.....) while I was under their roof.

Honestly, some posts in these threads drive me crazy and I told myself not to read them because I knew there would be people posting about how fun the first things were when they were young. I would be embarrassed to post the ages at which these things happened for me. They happened WAY later for me.

I feel that these things were stolen from me because of their Puritanical attitudes. 

So I will definitely raise any future children of mine with a much more open mind.

But damn do I have regrets from my younger years.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Can't say my parents talked to me about much of anything, but I was horny and boy crazy as long as I can remember. .. I was just too shy to allow any of them to know I liked them.. I was a huge Romantic and just wanted the right boy to find me.

Been masturbating since age 11 or so... after so many days, that feeling would "build up" in me - or if I seen something erotic..(R rated scene)... it would hit me like a shot. Romance novels put me over the edge...none of this has changed over the years.

Always a reader.. It was more books that taught me about sexuality, I knew how ..and what to avoid -so I wouldn't get pregnant...(Step Mother would have thrown me out onto the streets if that happened- which she pretty much laid out)....I read about STD's... I understood some can render a girl infertile... I never wanted to use any hormonal birth control because the side effects worried me too much and my dream of having my own family and staying as healthy as possible ruled my thinking..those were my biggest dreams. 

I was so horny around my H when we met ... I really needed to change my underwear -maybe even my pants..like all the time....I am not sure I really understood this fully.. but the thrill of being touched was overwhelming ...If he didn't go there, I would have been frustrated. 

I remember thinking in the beginning ...even saying this to him... 'how in the H are we not going to go [email protected]#$".. it was intense.. but somehow what I believed in held me back.. after all he could have gotten in BIG trouble -he was 18, I was just 15...so we got used to what we did..and it was good.


----------



## jld

SA, you had a great deal of self-awareness early on, and chose a great husband. Mr. SA is a very kind, secure man, a good father as well as husband.

The thing is, not everyone chooses as wisely as you did. I made some bad decisions early on, and I am really glad I ended up with dh, anyway. I just don't want my kids to go through what I did.

And I am not saying they would. I think the older kids are head and shoulders above me when I was their age. I grew up with the wrong values, and I really regret that. I have told them about my life, and I really hope they have learned from my stupid decisions. Someone should benefit from that, lol.

I guess I just want them to have a conscience about how they treat other people. There are a lot of vulnerable people out there. They won't feel good later if they use people, and no one likes being used, when they realize it. That is really all I was trying to say a few pages ago, and maybe just to myself, lol.

It is so good you share your experiences here. You have a strong, long, loving relationship with Mr. SA, and we all benefit from hearing about it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> SA, you had a great deal of self-awareness early on, and chose a great husband. Mr. SA is a very kind, secure man, a good father as well as husband.
> 
> The thing is, not everyone chooses as wisely as you did. I made some bad decisions early on, and I am really glad I ended up with dh, anyway. I just don't want my kids to go through what I did.
> 
> And I am not saying they would. I think the older kids are head and shoulders above me when I was their age. I grew up with the wrong values, and I really regret that. * I have told them about my life, and I really hope they have learned from my stupid decisions. Someone should benefit from that, lol.*


 you've done a phenomenal job in raising them ..you and husband, so hands on.. so honest before them.. .*Kids RESPECT THAT*..when we respect ...we listen.. right?



> I guess I just want them to have a conscience about how they treat other people. There are a lot of vulnerable people out there. *They won't feel good later if they use people,* and no one likes being used, when they realize it. That is really all I was trying to say a few pages ago, and maybe just to myself, lol.


 I don't think everyone has a conscience nor would they care if they use others --You are so idealistic JLD [email protected]#$ Would be nice but not so much what I see in the world... but yes..we should all rise above that ! :iagree:


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> you've done a phenomenal job in raising them ..you and husband, so hands on.. so honest before them.. .*Kids RESPECT THAT*..when we respect ...we listen.. right?
> 
> I don't think everyone has a conscience nor would they care if they use others --You are so idealistic JLD [email protected]#$ Would be nice but not so much what I see in the world... but yes..we should all rise above that ! :iagree:


Thanks, SA. I try to be as honest as I can be with them. It is embarrassing to admit some things, but I hope it will help them avoid mistakes.

I want them to be good and responsible people. I want them to feel good about themselves. Who cares about how much money you have, or what you look like, if you don't feel good inside?

That is what I really want for them -- to feel good inside of themselves -- genuinely good. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

I remember a friend told me she lost her virginity and excitedly shared the news with her parents. It blew my mind lol.

My dad never discussed... well... pretty much anything with me or taught me life-skills. I guess I picked up some stuff through observation, including what I didn't want for myself. He provided in ways he knew. I don't think he met any boys I dated before my husband. 

My mother instilled a sense of self-respect earlier on and encouraged me not to follow the crowd. She offered the "your body is a temple" view. She readily admitted to me that she's a prude and felt sex was overrated. She's a good sport though and can be open-minded for other perspectives. I bought my first corset / lingerie set at 18. I didn't have a boyfriend. I was still a virgin. I was simply wanting to explore my own sexuality and she was there with me. She never had lingerie but was still able to be supportive of where I was at. In recent years she visited us and saw my underwear hanging up to dry. She asked, "Who's head-bands are these?" and we had a laugh about it. I've been shopping with her and made fun of her beige granny panties lol. 

Aged 6, playing 'kiss chase' in the playground, I was the little flirt that would slow down for the boy I liked... "oops, you got me!" Aged 14, I went to the cinema with a boy and asked if he wanted to kiss me. Turns out he did. My dad collected me from the cinema and the embarrassment hit when he noted my lipstick was smudged all over my face haha. That was my first kiss. I was going to raves at 15/16 and then night-clubs at 16/17. I stayed guarded. The body sometimes said "Yes" while the heart said, "No". At 17, there was a gorgeous guy in his 20's who invited me back to his hotel room. I declined; I knew I was far too innocent and that wasn't going to be my style. 

Friends thought I'd be the first to have sex. I was one of the last. It had to be with someone I gave a damn about and who gave a damn about me in return. Turns out, that ended up being my husband.


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## over20

hambone said:


> My kids were raised in church.
> 
> All you can do is do your best to instill good values and morals into your kids...
> 
> The harder you try to control them.. the harder they are going to rebel. And, at some point, you are going to lose control.
> 
> We have not tried to control our kids. We've let them make their choices.. after we've presented and explained their options. We want our kids to know that we are on their side.


:iagree:


Great post


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## heartsbeating

I tip my hat to those of you who have open communication with your children. I can't relate to how these topics are approached as we don't have children... but by the sounds of it, there are some mighty fine parental units amongst us. Big ups!


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## over20

We just want them to be better informed than we were...


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## soccermom2three

With my 19 year old daughter, I find what works for us is when I let her come to me to start conversations. In the past, when I ask too many questions or start giving unwanted advice it shuts her down and I get the "I know Mom!" Usually, it's driving in the car or hanging out at home and she brings something up and we end up having a great talk. Sometimes I'm surprised by the things she tells me, definitely things I didn't talk about with my own mom.


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## hambone

over20 said:


> We just want them to be better informed than we were...


It's a lot more dangerous than it was when we were growing up.

You HAVE to better inform you kids these days.


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## ScarletBegonias

Maybe if my mother had been a bit more concerned about what was being done to my body when I was a kid I would have given more care to what was happening to my body as a teen and young adult. 

But she didn't care.So I didn't care. I didn't have a superman dad to save me either. So I made my own choices and had a LOT of sex. 

I want to give a big fat f**k you to people who feel they can judge me for my sexual history. I don't judge theirs whether they were getting it on constantly or whether they saved themselves for the perfect person. 

There are some pretty sh*tty relationship partners out there full of selfish entitlement. If you look closely you'll find it's a mixed bag of sexual histories. 

I don't think promiscuity in your past always makes you a bad partner just like I don't think being pure always makes you a good partner. 

If you're going to have sex you better make damn sure you're prepared for the potential emotional fallout and physical risks that can come along with having sex outside of a long term relationship.Don't lie to a person just to get them into bed.Don't be someone you're not just to get laid. If you can't be grown up enough to be honest about your intentions and feelings then you're not grown up enough for sex. Those are the lessons I teach my son.

Well,in addition to "porn isn't real.most men don't have penises like that.just bc your friends say a girl is a **** doesn't mean she is one.just bc your friends say they slept w/someone doesn't mean it actually happened.don't EVER have sex with someone and tell the whole world about it...it's tacky. Learn how to please your girlfriend by talking to her BEFORE falling into bed with her.Don't let a girl think or act like she owns you just bc she has a vagina."


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## heartsbeating

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't judge theirs whether they were getting it on constantly or whether they saved themselves for the perfect person.
> 
> There are some pretty sh*tty relationship partners out there full of selfish entitlement. If you look closely you'll find it's a mixed bag of sexual histories.


Well said, lady.


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## heartsbeating

ScarletBegonias said:


> If you're going to have sex you better make damn sure you're prepared for the potential emotional fallout and physical risks that can come along with having sex outside of a long term relationship.Don't lie to a person just to get them into bed.Don't be someone you're not just to get laid. If you can't be grown up enough to be honest about your intentions and feelings then you're not grown up enough for sex. Those are the lessons I teach my son.
> 
> Well,in addition to "porn isn't real.most men don't have penises like that.just bc your friends say a girl is a **** doesn't mean she is one.just bc your friends say they slept w/someone doesn't mean it actually happened.don't EVER have sex with someone and tell the whole world about it...it's tacky. Learn how to please your girlfriend by talking to her BEFORE falling into bed with her.Don't let a girl think or act like she owns you just bc she has a vagina."


Yet another parent I'm tipping my hat to.


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## ScarletBegonias

Thanks!


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