# Question for WW's, where you able to stop short of intercourse?



## chubhub (Jul 13, 2015)

Most say one is as bad as the other... It's splitting hairs but is possibly different.

WW"s reply only!

Did you stop short of full intercourse? What was reasoning either way?

Monica stopped short, right?!!!


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

chubhub said:


> Most say one is as bad as the other... It's splitting hairs but is possibly different.
> 
> WW"s reply only!
> 
> ...


Sorry... you're going to get a lot of *crickets* my friend.

LOL, is that the line your wife is giving you? It's called Trickle Truth.

Cheater script translation: Hug = Kiss, Kiss = Oral, and Oral = Sex

If she says she stopped short of full intercourse, she probably just stopped short of full blown anal.

But maybe someone else will chime in.....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

Yep he is right...... She stopped short of a full blown gangbanging his friends.........then again she may not have.


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## chubhub (Jul 13, 2015)

is there anything factual going on in this forum or just a lot of angry dudes feeling good telling all to get divorced?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chubhub said:


> is there anything factual going on in this forum or just a lot of angry dudes feeling good telling all to get divorced?


LOL. If you'd perhaps read from a more objective perspective, you'd find that much of the advice that is given is more than warranted by the insight that's provided.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

First off I'm not a WW, but as a woman I can tell you most of the time if a woman goes far enough to get emotional with a man to the point of sneaking around to meet with him. I would think she's already considered sleeping with him. I would never go anywhere alone with a man unless I was prepared to sleep with him. Why else would you have to meet him. You can just talk on the phone. I don't see her taking these risk then just stopping, But that's just my opinion. hope it helps.


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## chubhub (Jul 13, 2015)

As a long time poster maybe you can provide some useable advise as to whether or not there are any WW's frequenting this board...


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## chubhub (Jul 13, 2015)

Now we're getting somewhere... Thank you


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

chubhub said:


> is there anything factual going on in this forum or just a lot of angry dudes feeling good telling all to get divorced?


Denial, and stuff.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chubhub said:


> As a long time poster maybe you can provide some useable advise as to whether or not there are any WW's frequenting this board...


There are a number of _former_ waywards here, but those *actively* engaging in adultery are typically run off due to not hearing (or reading, I suppose) what they want to hear.

Many of them tend to congregate on other sites, where they console each other while working feverishly to assure themselves that they're NOT shallow, vacuous, hormone-driven, dead-from-the-neck-up teenagers whose actions are responsible for the destruction of their homes, marriages, and families.

But that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

Or read.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

I am not a ww but I used to be married to one. My xww did not stop. She boned two different guys while we were married. 
She did do her best to lie about everything until she was busted and couldn't bull**** me any more. 

hope this helps


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

chubhub said:


> As a long time poster maybe you can provide some useable advise as to whether or not there are any WW's frequenting this board...


I've only seen one that I can remember & I can't remember her name. Sorry I hope you get the answers you're looking for..


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Devastated an lost said:


> I've only seen one that I can remember & I can't remember her name. Sorry I hope you get the answers you're looking for..


It would probably be helpful if she told everyone _*what*_ she was looking for.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

3putt said:


> It would probably be helpful if she told everyone _*what*_ she was looking for.


With a name like "chub*hub*", I figured OP was/is male.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> With a name like "chub*hub*", I figured OP was/is male.


Where did I get she from? Too many threads running through my mind, I guess.

Or just not paying attention.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Who is Monica?

Your wife?

Sorry pal... I'm afraid she didn't stop "short."


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It is possible. People can get an attack of the guilts and decide not to go all the way. 

Yes, I know, in general terms "we only kissed" is a weird form of shorthand for "we made mad munkee sex for two hours" but not always.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

This thread reminds me of a joke where the wife comes home and confesses to her husband that she had an affair but the guy only put his penis halfway.

He feels comforted that she didn't go all the way and forgives her.

Later, he's at a bar and sees the other man and gets into a fight with him. After he bloodies the AP up, he slaps him on the back, decides to let bygones be bygones and tells the guy its not a big deal because the wife told him that he only put his penis in halfway.

Other man says, "yea but did she tell you it was the bottom half?"


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Does it matter? It is only semantics!


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

.....when a cheating spouse 'tries' to play down their actions ....or ....tries to even apologize for their actions ...and the words leaving their mouth contain "only did this or only did that" ......you know that lies are flying out of their face.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Splitting hairs? Is that a pun?


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Based on the info I gleaned from my FWW from the "dark period" over 10 years ago, she was 4 for 4 on PAs. She also stated that "of course it's physical if you are meeting in person, otherwise you could just talk on the phone. Especially if you are meeting up where there are no other people around."


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You may want to do a search for recent threads or posts to search for a couple. Once you find one or more, you can PM each woman and pose your question to her. Chances are good that they may respond to a PM since there is no chance of them getting flamed for their replies by any TAM member.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Zanne said:


> Now I believe that the straying begins in the mind and that's just as destructive and devastating. But maybe as you said, that's splitting hairs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct.

OP, you don't have to be a WS to know that even before the genitals get going, the brain has been cooking away for quite a while. It's no cliché that the largest sexual organ is the brain.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I'll answer your questions. But I have to wonder, why does it matter? Cheating is cheating and it begins in the mind. IMO.
> 
> Why are you so focused on the act? I used to think it was a pretty big deal.
> 
> Now I believe that the straying begins in the mind and that's just as destructive and devastating.


Geez. It matters.

For many, the _physical_ act of sex is the threshold at which reconciliation ends and divorce beings. Waywards know this, so they minimize, lie, deflect, trickle-truth, etc.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Well, in my opinion, what happens in the mind is just as bad if not worse because it's easier to hide.
> 
> A BS can be relieved that their cheating spouse never had intercourse with their affair partner, but how do they know their spouse isn't thinking about and imagining somebody else while they are together, even while making love. The mind is very powerful. You can imagine all sorts of things.
> 
> IMO, the battle is in the brain. But maybe that's a female thing.


It's not a female thing, it's a human thing, and there's the rub... you can never _truly_ know, even when you're assured of what you _think_ you know.

Additionally, this applies to _every_ relationship -- even those that haven't been breached by the foul taint of infidelity.

That said, it's much easier to trust in what you think you know when your trust hasn't been shattered by an adulterous spouse.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Zanne said:


> Divorce after a long term marriage is complicated.


Divorce is complicated, period. I'd say trying to save a marriage after a spouse cheats is even more complicated. I found divorcing my exww far simpler than trying to reconcile.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Geez. It matters.
> 
> For many, the _physical_ act of sex is the threshold at which reconciliation ends and divorce beings. Waywards know this, so they minimize, lie, deflect, trickle-truth, etc.


Agreed. I may have been able to reconcile if the affair were only emotional. However I'm glad she spread for the POSOM, because it gave me the opportunity to leave a horrible, messed up person and marriage. I would've likely felt obligated to save the marriage had it not gone physical. Now? I'm happily divorced.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

chubhub said:


> is there anything factual going on in this forum or just a lot of angry dudes feeling good telling all to get divorced?


I use to think the same thing because like you I didn't like what I was hearing and just jumped to conclusions like you just did.

We actually are trying to help. Your situation is not unique and as much as you want to think you are the exception to the rule you will soon find out you are not. Denial is one of the stages when dealing with an affair and sounds like you are neck deep in it at the moment.

We know what works and what doesn't since most of us did all the wrong things at first like you did (or else you wouldn't be here). We want you to learn from our mistakes and know that cheaters are VERY predictable. The names change but the story ends the same way every time. Your choice is the learn things the hard way by going out on your own (which you know work or else you wouldn't be in this situation) or take the advice from people who have already been down this road.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I agree. My relationship with my STBXH was never the same after he cheated on me. I won't do it again. I will walk. But then, I'm at a different place in my life.
> 
> I still think I would leave over an emotional affair. And I'm speaking from both sides of experience. But everyone has their own line they draw in the sand.


Generally speaking, women have a more difficult time w/ the emotional part of an affair, and a given BW will be more willing to work things out when she's able to see that, for her husband, the affair was nothing more than "just sex".

For men it's generally the opposite, and the physical aspect of an affair, if any, is more difficult to reconcile.

The reasons for this are rooted in our evolutionary psychology. Women expect their men to provide resources, stability, and security, and they're more willing to forgive and reconcile in the face of an affair when they're able to determine that none of that has necessarily been threatened.

Men, on the other hand, are wired in such a way that it's very unnatural for us to provide for another man's offspring. Most of us will readily do it for stepchildren, but not so much for a child produced as a result of a wife's adultery.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I tend to agree with this sentiment, although I don't follow evolutionary belief's. I'm sure there are exceptions.


I don't believe in chicken fried steak, even though you can get one at damn near every restaurant and truck stop in the Great State of Texas.



Zanne said:


> To the OP, I questioned why intercourse was such a big deal because I believe that's not even half the problem. Again, the battle is in the brain. If you don't solve that then it will only be a matter of time before it's much, much more.


How would you advise one to go about "solving" it?


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## chubhub (Jul 13, 2015)

thx


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Healer said:


> Agreed. I may have been able to reconcile if the affair were only emotional. However I'm glad she spread for the POSOM, because it gave me the opportunity to leave a horrible, messed up person and marriage. I would've likely felt obligated to save the marriage had it not gone physical. Now? I'm happily divorced.


The same for me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm not a woman, or a wayward, but I have seen and considered affairs many times.

It strikes me as a similar mentality as what sometimes happens with extreme punishments for crime. I forget the state, think it was texas, but when they lowered the tolerance for certain crimes, there was this interesting bifurcation effect...

Where, indeed, there was a short period where such crimes went down. However, there was an interesting secondary effect -- when someone still went ahead and did the crime, they did it to a higher extreme.

Because, you know, they're already going to jail or death row -- might as well go all the way trying to get away with it, right?

Seems to me a similar effect occurs in affairs. Once you get past the tipping point where it's "bad" -- kissing or touching... where your spouse will freak out or leave you anyway -- you might as well go all the way, right?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> *Well, why is somebody else in their head in the first place?*
> 
> I don't have all the answers, Gus, and believe it or not, I struggle with the why's and why not's. I don't believe once a cheater, always a cheater, but I would want to know about the core beliefs and character of my significant other, something I ignored when I got married. I also think some partners mistreat each other and take their relationship for granted and throw in passive aggressive behavior and nothing gets solved. Also, to be honest, divorce emotionally and financially destroys most families, so....


:slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marduk said:


> I'm not a woman, or a wayward, but I have seen and considered affairs many times.
> 
> It strikes me as a similar mentality as what sometimes happens with extreme punishments for crime. I forget the state, think it was texas, but when they lowered the tolerance for certain crimes, there was this interesting bifurcation effect...
> 
> ...


Exactly what my brother told me once.

What a douche.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

chubhub said:


> Most say one is as bad as the other... It's splitting hairs but is possibly different.
> 
> WW"s reply only!
> 
> ...


Can we assume that this question pertains to a situation you are in?

When an affair begins there is always the culmination of intercourse on the mind. Is there perhaps "hesitation sex"? Sure, my FIL hesitated with his AP. Three days later the deed was done. 

It is only a matter of time....


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Human nature follows a 3 step process:
1 You think about it
2 You talk about it, maybe to your girlfriends
3 You do it, then talk about it to your girlfriends some more

Very predictable. And if you are meeting the guy in private, there's only one reason for that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Human nature follows a 3 step process:
> 1 You think about it
> 2 You talk about it, maybe to your girlfriends
> 3 You do it, then talk about it to your girlfriends some more
> ...


Exactly.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

" I don't believe once a cheater, always a cheater"

Sadly, except for in a minority of cases where a WS does A LOT of self-reflection and effort to change, I do believe this is true.

This is their coping mechanism for when they are unhappy in a relationship....and any time they get unhappy again, the pattern is very likely to repeat.

UNLESS they to the work to change....and most selfish people are just unwilling to put in that kind of effort.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

While I agree that EAs can be as devastating as PAs, PAs have the added "bonus" of the mental video or images that pop up in a BS head. This is not just a male thing but a female thing as well. It takes months or years of PTSD type therapy to help conquer those horrible video or images. They are crippling, I should know.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

morituri said:


> While I agree that EAs can be as devastating as PAs, PAs have the added "bonus" of the mental video or images that pop up in a BS head. This is not just a male thing but a female thing as well. It takes months or years of PTSD type therapy to help conquer those horrible video or images. They are crippling, I should know.


Ya, they're different beasts.

EAs have the problem that it's hard to define what the problem actually is, and easy to feign/maintain/re-write the whole thing as innocence.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I seriously believe most people don't see themselves having an affair when they get married"

Of course they don't.

The most selfish and disgusting people I have ever met still viewed themselves as good and upstanding people.

They were also the type that pointed fingers everywhere but at themselves when some incident or problem arose.

It's why I don't give a da*n about what people say or think....I judge people by what they DO.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Having been on the inside of many threads thru PM's.
Its uncommon. 
Most common of the uncommon.
Real "Just Kissed" Ive seen
1) Most common of these Ive seen are the make out with a random guy on a GNO either in a car or right at the bar. Note a couple were male strippers who wanted more. The VIP room at a male review... Apparently anything goes. Some women just cant ramp up to sex that fast I guess.
2) An ex on *INCIDENTAL* meeting. IE unplanned meet up like at an event.
3) Coworker at party. Again unplanned meeting.
When a meet up is planned... Not sure I have ever seen it not end in sex.
Virtually all involved large quantities of alcohol.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

It's uncommon because it makes little sense to go that far, and then not actually do the deed.

I mean, think about it. They've already risked the primary relationship, so from the cheater's mindset it's little additional risk. They're already addicted to the attention, and if they stop short they might lose the one that's giving them so much attention. And, the person must be attractive to them for some reason to already be at that point... so nature takes it's course.

It's just emotional and sexual economics.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

marduk said:


> Ya, they're different beasts.
> 
> EAs have the problem that it's hard to define what the problem actually is, and easy to feign/maintain/re-write the whole thing as innocence.


EAs and PAs have ranges. EAs can range from excessive communication and sharing of personal and marital information all the way to declarations of love and expressions of desire to be with the AP. While PAs can range from sexting and making out all the way to secret meeting in hotels, apartments or houses for full blown sex sessions.

EAs can be easier to gaslight because they can be sold as simple "friendship" while ignoring that an innocent friendship is never hidden from the other spouse nor does it become the dominating time consumer in a spouse's daily life who could be using that time for other things, such as communicating and sharing those same things with her/his spouse. 

On the other hand PAs can never be gaslighted, not even with the often used and ludicrous cheater statement "It's not what you think honey". For how can sexting or being caught red handed having sex with another person be explained away? They can't. Even in a situation where the couple is in "the lifestyle" where they establish rules of conduct, such a scenario could be a major rule breaker.

Both hurt like hell because of one common denominator, trust has been destroyed.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

morituri said:


> EAs and PAs have ranges. EAs can range from excessive communication and sharing of personal and marital information all the way to declarations of love and expressions of desire to be with the AP. While PAs can range from sexting and making out all the way to secret meeting in hotels, apartments or houses for full blown sex sessions.
> 
> EAs can be easier to gaslight because they can be sold as simple "friendship" while ignoring that an innocent friendship is never hidden from the other spouse nor does it become the dominating time consumer in a spouse's daily life who could be using that time for other things, such as communicating and sharing those same things with her/his spouse.
> 
> ...


There are actually BS's out there that fall for this bullsh*t line. I can't provide a link at the moment, but I've actually read at least one thread here where a BH walked in on his WW in bed w/ another man. They fed him the "it's not what it looks like" bullsh*t, and he completely fell for it.

For a while, anyway.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> There are actually BS's out there that fall for this bullsh*t line. I can't provide a link at the moment, but I've actually read at least one thread here where a BH walked in on his WW in bed w/ another man. They fed him the "it's not what it looks like" bullsh*t, and he completely fell for it.
> 
> For a while, anyway.


 @GusPolinski Gus don't you know that the guy was a friend who was simply helping the wife out with a vaginal massage using his penis? It's done all the time. (dammit, #$%[email protected] sarcasm switch won't shut off).


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"@GusPolinski Gus don't you know that the guy was a friend who was simply helping the wife out with a vaginal massage using his penis? It's done all the time. (dammit, #$%[email protected] sarcasm switch won't shut off)."

lol....yeah, ungrateful SOB.

He should have been more appreciative and thankful for OM's care and effort.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

morituri said:


> @GusPolinski Gus don't you know that the guy was a friend who was simply helping the wife out with a vaginal massage using his penis? It's done all the time. (dammit, #$%[email protected] sarcasm switch won't shut off).


"That's cool. Hey there, Mr. Masseur, let me use this shotgun to help extricate you from my home. That said, I'm going to need help to 'help' you, which is cool, because a few folks will be along in a few minutes to carry what's left of you out on a stretcher."


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> "That's cool. Hey there, Mr. Masseur, let me use this shotgun to help extricate you from my home. That said, I'm going to need help to 'help' you, which is cool, because a few folks will be along in a few minutes to carry what's left of you out on a stretcher."


No, no, no Gus you don't say that. You say "Mr Masseur permit me the pleasure of helping you enter Nirvana. No need to thank me, it will be my pleasure" and then go BOOM!. >


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I was gonna say, gas-lighting and TT for PAs are common. With my situation it was everything from:

1 just friends, no touching at all
2 just hugs, because that's what good friends do
3 touching shoulders, hands
4 rub his face (did this in front of me), he doesn't mind
5 touched mid-section while slow dancing, noticed some wood coming thru, must have been the song 
6 rubbed his junk thru his pants, he felt her stuff 
7 he saw my bra when I was changing, but no big deal, he's like my brother
8 saw him in his undershorts
9 took a nap together, spooned with him
10 napped again, only this time I was naked because it was hot, but he was in his undershorts, so it was OK
11 hand job, but I didn't look, made sure no spunk got on my wedding ring
12 showed him my naked body after showering at his place, which I do all the time, asked for his opinion on areas of my body I can improve on, but it's OK nothing physical happened
13 asked my single toxic friend to "warm him up" back at his place after a night of drinking, then hand off to me because he is reluctant with a married woman 
14 BJ or 2 or 6, but I kept my eyes closed and it was mostly hand
15 intercourse in car, we used condoms so it's OK
16 intercourse in my house, but it's OK because kid was at grandma's
17 intercourse in hotel, when my house not available
18 intercourse at the cemetery, when hotels become to expensive and my house not available
19 start a new affair and skip to step 16 same night to try to get rid of the previous one because he got "too obsessed and controlling" with me
20 have a ONS with a smoking hot guy you just meet, skipping to step 17 same night, and inviting the same single toxic friend from step 13 to sneak into your room at 3 am in the same hotel and pull back the sheets on his sleeping naked body for her to see

It only took 12 yrs to get the full truth, but who's counting?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Your mess Maj. You're staying with that train wreck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> I was gonna say, gas-lighting for PAs are common. With my situation it was everything from:
> 
> 1 just friends, no touching at all
> 2 just hugs, because that's what good friends do
> ...


And this was supposedly in an open relationship you declared before you got married and continued years after the marriage. It just goes to show you that even these types of relationships are not immune to the lies and deception that destroy trust.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

morituri said:


> And this was supposedly in an open relationship you declared before you got married and continued years after the marriage. It just goes to show you that even these types of relationships are not immune to the lies and deception that destroy trust.


Mostly true, it became the equivalent of "open" a few years after the wedding, when she believed that I had abandoned her. Gas-lighting and trickle truth to the extreme until she was sure I wouldn't leave and was comfortable revealing the truth (at least most of it) many years later upon R.

I just wanted to demonstrate an extreme example of gas-lighting and trickle-truth. She told me I was "paranoid" and that it would really upset her if I started playing "detective" and snooping around when I was home on leave because she was an adult and could do whatever (or whoever) she wanted. She also practiced the "hiding in plane sight" by inviting me to events with the OM, telling me we could become friends because we are "so alike".

The answer to the OP's question is: *NO, she didn't stop before it became physical*.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The twist of situation for me consists of:

My (future) husband while we were dating reconnected with someone he called an ex gf. They decided to take a trip together. He told me about the trip 4 weeks in advance but not all the details.

His so called just a friend ex got pissy with him during these four weeks before their trip so he started turning towards me..... which made her start working harder for him (I've seen the messages).

the weekend before the trip he told me all the details. It was one one one, not a group trip. He told her about me....... but only of late let me know about her.

They did share a hotel room together. He won't confirm whether it was one bed or two beds. But He says that she tried it on him (not the other way around).

Considering what I know of her (from what he has said about her, the messages between them and her representations on social media), I think it's possible that she would see sex as a tool (she was 29 at the time) and COULD have tried it on him to cause him greater confusion as to which one to choose.

What I do know for a fact is that just past midnight their local time on the first day of their trip, he sent me an e-mail claiming that she had a boyfriend (I later confirmed that that was true) and given that, we could all be friends now. 

So 5 years on, yes he's doing all the right things that a wife would want her husband to do, but still, we're all human and just a little curious:

1. Who tried what on whom?
2. Was it consummated at all?

Anyone with some wisdom on the matter, direct or tangential is welcome to contribute here.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

If it was before the marriage, why do you care about who he hooked up with? Did you honestly tell him about all of your sexual misadventures prior to marriage, including bachelorette party? And he should feel free to tell you the details of whatever happened because you two were not married yet, unless he is afraid his image in your eyes will be degraded because he was banging both of you and lying to both, which guys are known to do.

Usually single people of the opposite sex don't share hotel rooms unless there is attraction and an agenda.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> *If it was before the marriage*, why do you care about who he hooked up with? Did you honestly tell him about all of your sexual misadventures prior to marriage, including bachelorette party? And he should feel free to tell you the details of whatever happened because you two were not married yet, unless he is afraid his image in your eyes will be degraded because he was banging both of you and lying to both, which guys are known to do.


They were dating. Beyond a certain point, sexual exclusivity is somewhat implied. I realize that's not necessarily the case these days, though.

Better question, @NextTimeAround... why didn't you dump his ass? I say that because he sure as f*ck was banging his "ex" in the hotel room.



MAJDEATH said:


> Usually single people of the opposite sex don't share hotel rooms unless there is attraction and an agenda.


Indeed.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

MAJ,

If people are dating exclusively, it certainly is cheating.

And its obvious her fiancee knows they were exclusive too....otherwise, why lie and obfuscate?

If they were in a 'laissez-faire' period of dating prior to commitment when this went down, he would just admit what happened and remind her that they were not exclusively together yet.

Lying and minimizing is always a dead give away that the person doing it knows da*n well that what they did was wrong and scummy.

Honest people with no reason to feel guilty about their actions simply do not act that way.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

one thing that I gather about dating, both before my first marriage and the second time around, men do not like the idea that they are being multidated. So I avoided multi dating, but at the same time, it seems that (some) men feel that it's ok to still do sampling while expecting the women to be faithful......_ even before exclusivity is even discussed._



> Usually single people of the opposite sex don't share hotel rooms unless there is attraction and an agenda.


I think some people, usually women, think that OSFs are 100% interchangeable. Someone still in their 20s, is going to have that campus mentality. And also will think in terms of saving money -- ie, one hotel room is cheaper than 2-- 



> Better question, @NextTimeAround... why didn't you dump his ass? I say that because he sure as f*ck was banging his "ex" in the hotel room.


I thought about dumping him. But he started to do the right things when we were together after that. When I figured out that he was still in touch with her, I told him I would start dating again. And then he cut all ties with her. 

But still, I contemplate it as it's human nature. and I bet a lot of other people are dealing with similar situations. They don't know it because they don't know what's going on below the surface. My (future) husband was messy at his place; kept every window on his computer open and gave me the key to his apartment. Had he been more secretive, I would have had to move on. 

ie, A guy only makes a date for the same day. Many people will ask, why so persnickety? Are you doing the The Rules on this guy? What's wrong with spontaneity? Were you really so busy that you had to turn down that date? When in fact, this guy was waiting for his No. 1 to make a decision and when she stands him up, he calls his No. 2. It's funny how people are quick to defend the unknown.

I think more often, men have higher standards in how they expected to be treated when dating.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

to give more examples of these habits, a (former) female friend of mine told me that she took a trip with a guy she was dating at the 6 month mark. 

They had not had sex yet. they shared expenses on the trip including flights and hotel, but she did not discuss with the guy that she still was not ready to have sex with the guy. and admitted to me that she did weird things like tried to stay in the both in hopes that he would fall asleep soon.

So after the trip, she had to come to terms with the fact that the guy dumped her. She believes that it was for other reasons. Maybe it was for a bagful of reasons. The trip just sealed the bag.

I have read in other places where women will take a trip with the guy they're dating. Will try to avoid sex on the trip despite sharing hotel room. and then be annoyed because the guy dumped her after the trip.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I have read in other places where women will take a trip with the guy they're dating. Will try to avoid sex on the trip despite sharing hotel room. and then be annoyed because the guy dumped her after the trip."

Yeah...this is probably very common.

The guy may take the avoidance, especially if the woman seems very distant and uncomfortable in her demeanor while alone in the room, to mean that she is really just not that into him....this thinking would be stronger based on how long the couple had already been dating.

Afterwards, the guy is probably going to lose interest in continuing to pursue a woman hard, if at all, if he feels she just doesn't really want him.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Zanne said:


> Well, why is somebody else in their head in the first place?
> 
> I don't have all the answers, Gus, and believe it or not, I struggle with the why's and why not's.* I don't believe once a cheater, always a cheater, *but I would want to know about the core beliefs and character of my significant other, something I ignored when I got married. I also think some partners mistreat each other and take their relationship for granted and throw in passive aggressive behavior and nothing gets solved. Also, to be honest, divorce emotionally and financially destroys most families, so....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't this affair like your third or fourth affair since you've been married? (if I am recalling your other threads correctly, I believe it is).


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> "I have read in other places where women will take a trip with the guy they're dating. Will try to avoid sex on the trip despite sharing hotel room. and then be annoyed because the guy dumped her after the trip."
> 
> Yeah...this is probably very common.
> 
> ...


these days, I understand these things better like symbolism. That is, if you are going to share a hotel room with a guy, then it should be not only with someone you are dating, but someone with whom you are ready to start (or continue) sexual relations with. 

I think a lot of women want it both ways. that is to take a trip even with a guy and just treat it like a Girl's Night Out. If the guy was interested in dating her, then I can see why he would not be happy with the weekend arrangement.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Reminds me of a recent situation that just cracked me up.

A married friend of my wife was bragging to us (in front of her husband and the other couple involved)

"We're so secure in our marriages that at a recent event Jimmy and I shared a hotel room for a weekend. Johnny, my husband and Jane, his wife were all cool with it. Why are you guys so insecure all the time?"

I started laughing, my wife takes one look at how out of shape Jane is, how hot her friend is, looks Jane right in the eye and says "are you blind or just stupid? Even if nothing happened, do you not think he fantasizes that something did?"

And I laughed and laughed and laughed. And said to Johnny "You travel a lot for work, right? How's that working out for you?"

And then for some reason we weren't welcome at the party any more.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marduk said:


> Reminds me of a recent situation that just cracked me up.
> 
> A married friend of my wife was bragging to us (in front of her husband and the other couple involved)
> 
> ...


Ha! Sounds like a confession to me.

What a couple of suckers.

Actually... _four_ of them.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

I am a former WW (20 years ago) and yes I did stop short of intercourse and there was no oral either. 

I think I thought that intercourse would be a marriage deal breaker but the other stuff could be forgiven. (i know -how stupid!) He never found out and i did not tell him. - I transferred out of my place of employment and avoided every place I might run into him and stayed off of any media sites that might start communication. I loved my husband and still do. It was a time when we were having problems, growing apart, and I was too immature and selfish to work hard on what needed to be fixed.

sometimes WW stop short of intercourse .
Sometimes WW only do it once 
sometimes WW end it and do NC on their own 
sometimes WW can see through the fog hey are in and do the right thing

And I know BS will say I need to come clean with him but I will take it to my grave. To tell him now after 20 years would be like it happened yesterday for him and all the pain and anguish would be fresh.
Please don't bash me Karma's been a [email protected]$#.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You have to do what you think is right NurseJackie, but remember that truth is a pesky beast. It has a way of finding to path to the surface through trails you would have never anticipated. You better have a good explanation prepared.


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## Tito Santana (Jul 9, 2015)

nursejackie said:


> I am a former WW (20 years ago) and yes I did stop short of intercourse and there was no oral either.
> 
> I think I thought that intercourse would be a marriage deal breaker but the other stuff could be forgiven. (i know -how stupid!) He never found out and i did not tell him. - I transferred out of my place of employment and avoided every place I might run into him and stayed off of any media sites that might start communication. I loved my husband and still do. It was a time when we were having problems, growing apart, and I was too immature and selfish to work hard on what needed to be fixed.
> 
> ...


Nursejackie,

I couldn't help but notice your other thread, suspecting your H is having an affair and looking for evidence on FB and such. If you do confirm any wrongdoing, would you confess your own self admitted affair? Or will you let him think you've maintained fidelity the whole time, while you question him and guilt him for his affair? 

Not trying to put the heat on, but just a curious question.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Zanne said:


> A BS can be relieved that their cheating spouse never had intercourse with their affair partner, but how do they know their spouse isn't thinking about and imagining somebody else while they are together, even while making love. The mind is very powerful. You can imagine all sorts of things.
> 
> IMO, the battle is in the brain. But maybe that's a female thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You really don't know how men's minds work, do you?

Even loyal, faithful men are going to have a wandering mind once in a while. Yes, even during sex. 

You know that cute blond in accounting? Well one day she was refilling the copy paper in a short skirt when your husband walked by.... that glimpse entered his mind later in the day when he asked to do it doggy-style >


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

morituri said:


> While I agree that EAs can be as devastating as PAs, PAs have the added "bonus" of the mental video or images that pop up in a BS head. This is not just a male thing but a female thing as well. It takes months or years of PTSD type therapy to help conquer those horrible video or images. They are crippling, I should know.


EA's don't give you STDs, particularly permanent ones that are a reminder every time there is a flareup.

EA's don't produce questionable paternity.


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## SomethingsUp (Sep 30, 2014)

My STBXH completely denies to this day that no intercourse happened between him and the AP *****, kissing is all he's ever admitted to and that took 6 months to get that after I left him.

Here's what I know:

-He failed a lie detector test that asked: *Have you ever had sexual relations with (AP name)*? 

-Before the test he wanted the polygraph examiner to re-word the question from "sexual relations to intercourse. He was really upset that he wouldn't change it.

-He took her a 3 or 4 out of town trips to buying shows (3 days long), booked two rooms, over the years. 

-He said to me once it was leading to sex.

-Affair went on for FOUR years.

-Admitted it was an EA at marriage counseling. 

-I found Viagra pills in his suit case and his brief case with pills gone. 

-AP told me once when I confronted her that if I was looking after his needs I wouldn't be in this mess.

-He admitted he had a crush on the AP, then later said he didn't mean it that way.

-He was obsessed with Anal, I wouldn't do it.

-In 2012, I suspected something was going on between the two of them because I found very inappropriate, graphic email jokes (genitals pic type) sent from him to her. I confronted him and was angry, he was her boss! He denied everything, told me I was crazy, they were just friends back then. Busted them with evidence in Sept 2014. He continued for 2 more years when he clearly new I was upset back in 2012. He admitted to the necking in the work truck back in 2010 in March 2015 after 6 months of TT. Sick bastards, both of them!!! 

I dumped cheaterpants btw, divorce is in the works and I moved over 200 miles away! Gaslighting SUCKS! Stonewalling SUCKS! Now I don't give a crap what they did but I do think they had intercourse many times, I mean c'mon 4 YEARS!!!!! And the VIAGRA!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SomethingsUp said:


> My STBXH completely denies to this day that no intercourse happened between him and the AP *****, kissing is all he's ever admitted to and that took 6 months to get that after I left him.
> 
> Here's what I know:
> 
> ...


Liar, liar, crotch on fire!

:lol: :rofl:


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

if they have lied to you about everything, they will surely lie to you about this. Women IMO make better liars than men (and yes I am a woman).


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

marduk said:


> Ya, they're different beasts.
> 
> EAs have the problem that it's hard to define what the problem actually is, and easy to feign/maintain/re-write the whole thing as innocence.


_Yep... all that innocence goes out the window..._ *when the Panties hit the floor.*


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## sharpender68 (Jun 25, 2015)

The OW and I never had intercourse. Yes, we did other things, but nothing that involved parts beneath the waist. In our minds, it was over a line we didn't want to cross while we were still married to other people. I'm not saying it was any less of a betrayal to my wife, but she is dealing with the physical betrayal better than she is dealing with the emotional betrayal.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"In our minds, it was over a line we didn't want to cross while we were still married to other people."

sharpender,

First welcome to TAM....and want to say its brave of a WS to come on these boards.

Hope you can let the vitriol that will fly your way from time to time roll off so you will stay and contribute stuff like this.

Just to be clear...I'm not attacking, but am actually very curious to understand what your thinking process is on the quote above.

How and why was this line a 'bridge too far' but all the other boundaries you had so obviously blown through were not?

You had to know that what you had already done was incredibly destructive and hurtful to your spouses already.

So why did you stop there?....What in your thinking made everything up to that point acceptable, but this line a big no-no?


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## sharpender68 (Jun 25, 2015)

Thanks for the welcome! To clarify, we didn't view anything we did as acceptable. We knew what we were doing was wrong, all of it. The short answer to your "bridge too far" question is, "I don't know." Our relationship felt like an 8 on the "cheating" scale, where-as intercourse felt like a 10. I don't know if there is any other way of explaining it. We both had the same line we wouldn't cross until the marriages ended. We knew all the lines we crossed to get to that line were still betrayal. Maybe that last line, "penetration of the vagina by the penis", isn't a line you can ever cross back over. The OW and I loved each other, maybe if we didn't we would have crossed that line. We didn't start the relationship to have sex, we were friends for years before we knew there was something more.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Betrayal is merely the non-sexual act that precedes sexual activity! The act of sex only serves to solidify and broaden the betrayal!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Sharpender,

What I believe most betrayed spouses feel is that passionate kissing is the same as the intent to commit intercourse. I would encourage you not to try and minimize what you did with the OW by saying "it was only kissing" to your wife. A great many betrayed spouses feel even more bitter because what they never got from their cheating spouses for years what was given freely to the OM/OW for so little effort.

Tamat


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I notice that the OP, Chubhub hasn't been back since the 15th...

Guess we weren't sellin' what he wanted to be buyin',

Oh well, some wisdom needs to be lived to be learned.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think most people believe that there is a range of inappropriate actions, that flirting is different from sex. But I also think that different people may have very different ideas about where various acts fall on that scale. 

Self justification also varies a lot. Many people can justify flirting, few can self-justify sex - but again different people have different limits.

I don't think there are any rules that apply to most people.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think most people believe that there is a range of inappropriate actions, that flirting is different from sex. But I also think that different people may have very different ideas about where various acts fall on that scale.
> 
> Self justification also varies a lot. Many people can justify flirting, few can self-justify sex - but again different people have different limits.
> ...


*Largely, their whole mantra is simply, "If it feels good, do it! ~ To hell with who it hurts!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## minebeloved (Nov 7, 2013)

what does WW mean?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

minebeloved said:


> what does WW mean?


Wayward Wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

thanks for holding off with the bashing-seriously

Bandit-

This is a very good question and one I've thought about for a long time. If he admits to having had an affair (I will assume it went all the way) and it stopped when we went into MC or shortly there after- I would forgive him and try to move forward. We have a weekend retreat for couples at the end of this month. I cannot judge him because I know that I behaved in the same manner at a crisis point long ago.

To tell him under these circumstances would serve no real purpose except to hurt him deeply and freshly IMHO. I don't think he would want to know. 

2nd scenario……I find out he has had a longterm PA and that he has continued it while we are working so hard in MC. If these wonderful improvements in our relationship have just been tactics to throw me off the A trail while they go underground…Then I'd probably tell him every little detail with the sole purpose of hurting him- and probably destroy any chance of R 

I won't know till I get there I guess


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

nursejackie said:


> thanks for holding off with the bashing-seriously
> 
> Bandit-
> 
> ...


You have fallen into a trap that many cheaters do.

You are rationalizing not telling. Do you really believe your unfaithfulness hasn't contributed to damaging your marriage?

What your husband doesn't know HAS hurt him.

On some level, you are still a cheater, depriving your husband and poisoning your marriage.

Take it to your grave. Your marriage might need to be buried first though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Nursejackie,

What I suspect happened, is that your H knew something was up when you were cheating on him, and stored it in his memory at the same time that he went into protective denial. Men are often well tuned in to the sexual behavior of their wives and significant others, and he likely noticed some new trick or an increase or decrease in desire for him. This was likely a terrifying time for him.

That memory of your cheating never went away and stayed there as a mental postit note to balance the scale one day. I felt this way for a long long time about my W cheating before I got married, but I could never bring myself to do it, and I blundered into a marriage supporting website one day which turned it around 20+ years after. 

The fact that you remember your affair every day of your life is enough of a reason to reestablish your integrity. If you expect honesty from your H you need to provide it yourself.

Think about it this way perhaps, every affair requires dishonesty to survive and remain hidden, you can't fight dishonesty with dishonesty.

Tell your story, then offer that both of you take a polygraph to reassure that the truth has been completely told.

Tamat

PS there is no reason to bash anyone, the pain of being on the receiving end of, and the brutal reality of an affair should be enough to make most people compassionate. You do not seem to be a serial cheater and seem to have had your affair due to length of contact and low boundaries.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Of the several WWs that I have known, who confided in me, all had told numerous lies to the AP to get what they wanted, with the most common lie being "We're separated and getting divorced". Even to an untrusting eye, seeing pictures of the husband and kids at the house, and hubby's clothes laying around don't preclude her from having a good story to explain it. "He moved out, but only took a few clothing items with him". "He just needs a place to store his tools until the D is final". I heard them all. Do you blame the AP from not stopping short of intercourse?


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