# Sex, engineers and feeling like I suck...



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Hi there,

I am genuinely seeking sound advise.

I know that I am sensitive (especially around "that time"). I read once in a very old book that a sensitive mind is self-centered. I really get that b/c everything becomes about you and how you feel. I am doing my best to shift that.

I'm married to an engineer. He's very open minded, but he definitely likes to be in control of his environment and to get things "right". He can also be a bit dramatic at times. His mother was super controlling and I feel like I'm around her sometimes when I'm with him.

I feel like I can't do anything right. I mean, from what time of day I do laundry to how I boil eggs, he usually has some "engineer" comment. The thing is, the input is often valid, so I try to keep an open mind. The problem is that I rarely hear any positive input. So, I end up feeling like I suck, especially when I am pre-menstrual. 

I'm pretty sure I don't suck. I make a good living, am in my late 40s and am in great shape. I am kind and interesting.

I want to tell him how this makes me feel (and I've tried), but then he gets sensitive about "getting it wrong" too.

BTW, I don't want to "ask for positive input" b/c then it feels forced. But, it is affecting our relationship deeply to the point that I think about leaving b/c I hate feeling bad about myself when I'm around him (have felt this way for most of the 14-year marriage).

We both work from home and as I was reading the thread here on TAM about Valentine's Day blow jobs. I want very much to do that. But, b/c his comments leave me feeling bad about myself around him, I don't. We both miss out. (He's not the type of guy who will do anything for sex, it has to be a connection.)

I would like to find a middle path b/c my mind keeps thinking "stay or go". I suppose I need to find out if he's wiling to do any work (feel like I'm always doing the emotional work in the relationship).

I'd like any constructive input so I can find the right words to gently address this with him. Or (and especially) any ideas that will shift my mindset if my thinking is off base.

Thank you,
Kerry


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Tell him that because he is so busy micromanaging the efficiency too many small things around you that he is ignoring a much higher order effect and not optimizing his marriage. Tell him about the BJ loss and how he is flying you by wire into a mountain.

In other words tell him in a way he can understand so that the object of his engineering is his marriage not how you do things.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

As a fellow engineer, I can sympathize with your husband. But he is still wrong.

He needs to understand that some battles just aren't worth winning. The cost is too high, the return on investment too low. When he does this, ask him how this materially effects his life other than his asinine OCD sense of the how it ought to be done. If the answer is "not or hardly at all", that's when you can tell him to just stuff a sock in it. 

Don't worry about hurting his feelings. He needs them to get a little hurt to learn how to live with someone who so constantly does everything the wrong way. He will adapt


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Let me add one thing: good on your for keeping an open mind too. Sometimes it really does matter. I have lost the argument with my wife on how to set the mirrors on her car, even though it can be shown objectively that she's wrong. I saved us from a collision on the freeway once, but one day she'll be unlucky.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's difficult for some logical, concrete personality types to consider the less tangible aspects of relationships and life, that improve the "user experience". Remind him that Apple achieved its success by paying close attention to user satisfaction, and not just optimizing and maximizing features.

A dear friend recently dated and moved in with an engineer with attitudes and behaviors like those you describe. She was unable to get him to change his critical and controlling ways, and after a year, broke up with him, but stayed friends. He has tried to soften his behavior since, but it is too late for them to rekindle the relationship.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> It's difficult for some logical, concrete personality types to consider the less tangible aspects of relationships and life, that improve the "user experience". Remind him that Apple achieved its success by paying close attention to user satisfaction, and not just optimizing and maximizing features.



That was my point with the BJ comment. It was a Use Case scenario he failed to consider.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Use his engineering logic to explain it to him.

Husband, if you don't stop criticizing me you will end up divorced.

Then every time he does it, you say "Remember what i told you? I think you meant to say I really like the eggs you just made for me, thank you my beautiful talented wife"

Eventually you will teach him how you want to be treated, and probably have some fun doing it.

He will be open to this becuase he wants to make you feel good. That is his desire. He does not desire to make you feel bad. You are feeling bad, but it is not his intent to make you feel bad. So you too have to separate what is in his heart from how some of this makes you feel.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanks for the reassurance and some wording that I would not have thought of (even though I can be very logical myself).

I am not seeking to be right, just to reduce my anxiety and increase the joy in our lives. I also seek to be closer to my husband, but wonder if he can understand that.

I just spoke with him about it. I was as gentle as possible.

His response was to ask how he can tell me things without me taking it personally. I explained that it wasn't about me taking it personally (that's where this type of conversation always goes). I suggested that he pace himself or pick his battles.

I feel dis-empowered by all of this. I am so afraid to make a decision I can't think straight. Then, I make a "bad" decision b/c I'm over-thinking.

I don't know how to get him to understand this. I am still open to positive and constructive input.

Thank you!


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm married to an engineer too, so I can relate to the way you are feeling. My husband means well and he's a great guy but tact is not his forte. I have learned over the years to 1. Not take things so personally and 2. To diffuse a lot of situations with sarcasm and humor. For example, if he's laying into me I'll say, "well don't spare my feelings bro!! Tell me how you really feel."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Hicks said:


> Husband, if you don't stop criticizing me you will end up divorced.


I'm pretty sure he would not respond to this very well. He would shut down.



Hicks said:


> Eventually you will teach him how you want to be treated, and probably have some fun doing it.


I think I've spoiled him by taking on all the discomfort. 



Hicks said:


> He will be open to this becuase he wants to make you feel good. That is his desire. He does not desire to make you feel bad. You are feeling bad, but it is not his intent to make you feel bad. So you too have to separate what is in his heart from how some of this makes you feel.


I really want to believe that he doesn't want to make me feel bad. But, we've had this conversation for 14 years. It usually turns into me taking things too personally.

I do get a little frustrated b/c when I've done things like this to him (question his judgment), he sets me straight right quick.

I lose patience b/c he will not listen to me. I also question that maybe it serves him to be "right" and in control, and it makes him feel good about himself (at my expense).

I have exercised enormous amounts of patience with this for many years. I just feel bad around him. I feel uncomfortable. I don't want to go through the rest of my life like this. I either need to stay on this and be persistent (I tend to be passive, like my mother), or accept that it is not working for me. Very sad, we have so much going for us. I feel pretty certain I'd make him unbelievable happy if he would allow it. Maybe he's not wired for that? I guess time will tell.

Thank you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Can you set up written areas of responsibility? You are responsible for A,B, C. He is responsible for X,Y, Z. He cannot say anything about how you do A,B, or C unless it involves danger, and vice versa you can't say anything about how he does X,Y, or Z.

My guess is you do things in a way that works, just not the same way he would have done it. If it is good enough, it is good enough.

He has to learn he is not in charge of how you do things. If it is so important to him how something is done or when it is done, he can do it himself.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Kerry said:


> I have exercised enormous amounts of patience with this for many years. I just feel bad around him. I feel uncomfortable. I don't want to go through the rest of my life like this. I either need to stay on this and be persistent (I tend to be passive, like my mother), or accept that it is not working for me. Very sad, we have so much going for us. I feel pretty certain I'd make him unbelievable happy if he would allow it. Maybe he's not wired for that? I guess time will tell.


That is exactly what you need to tell him. He needs to hear that you want to be married and there are positives about being with him, but you are worn out and cannot take any more.

I would suggest good marriage counseling. Make an appointment at a time when you know he could make himself available. Tell him what is in that quote above. Then tell him you have the appointment which you hope he will come along to.

If he doesn't come along, you go yourself. Chances are he'll show up, but if he doesn't you can still get the ball rolling with the counselor.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cletus said:


> He needs to understand that some battles just aren't worth winning. The cost is too high, the return on investment too low....


--Reminds me of the old joke about the engineer about to be executed. The blade of the guillotine falls half-way, binds up and stops. 

The engineer exclaims, "Wait a minute! I see what's wrong...."


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

For example, we tried to recycle one time and he would pick through the trash just looking for stuff to gripe about. I got so sick of it. I said, " if you don't get out of the trash, I'm going to hide a bloody tampon in there!!" We stopped recycling shortly after!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ms. GP said:


> For example, we tried to recycle one time and he would pick through the trash just looking for stuff to gripe about. I got so sick of it. I said, " if you don't get out of the trash, I'm going to hide a bloody tampon in there!!" We stopped recycling shortly after!! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The engineer in me would like to say something about the continued importance of recycling regardless, but will exercise the better part of valor.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Ms. GP said:


> if he's laying into me I'll say, "well don't spare my feelings bro!! Tell me how you really feel."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you ever just get worn down by this? Does it not affect your self esteem at all?

Sometimes I just feel bad about being married to someone who treats me like this (maybe this is just self pity?).

Also, it doesn't help that we live very out in the country and 13 years ago moved 500 miles away from my very large family. As you can imagine, we aren't exactly brimming over the top with local friends.

Thank you.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Thor said:


> That is exactly what you need to tell him. He needs to hear that you want to be married and there are positives about being with him, but you are worn out and cannot take any more.
> 
> I would suggest good marriage counseling. Make an appointment at a time when you know he could make himself available. Tell him what is in that quote above. Then tell him you have the appointment which you hope he will come along to.
> 
> If he doesn't come along, you go yourself. Chances are he'll show up, but if he doesn't you can still get the ball rolling with the counselor.


Sorry, but I'm LOLing (with you, not at you!). You're suggesting taking an engineer who is very hung up on right and wrong to go to have someone tell him how he's doing it wrong? Been there, done that (several times).

Thanks anyway!


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Kerry said:


> Thanks for the reassurance and some wording that I would not have thought of (even though I can be very logical myself).
> 
> I am not seeking to be right, just to reduce my anxiety and increase the joy in our lives. I also seek to be closer to my husband, but wonder if he can understand that.
> 
> ...


I am now exactly where I usually end up when I try to address this with him. I regret bringing it up. He says he just doesn't know how to do it any other way. He doesn't know how to be himself and not offend me.

He IS willing to continue talking about it.

I am tempted to go back to my "black and white thinking" of either having to live with this or get out. 

Please help me stay middle of the road. I feel pathetic, but am just being honest and vulnerable here on the forum that I really need some support (not easy for me).

I keep trying to make _him_ feel better. A counselor told me a long time ago that I have to get comfortable making him uncomfortable. Never quite got the hang of that.

I am grateful for the support here and am grateful for the acknowledgment of my feelings.

I could use (and greatly appreciate) any and all encouragement to stay kind, calm and persistent. 

Thank you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Kerry said:


> I am now exactly where I usually end up when I try to address this with him. I regret bringing it up. He says he just doesn't know how to do it any other way. He doesn't know how to be himself and not offend me.
> 
> He IS willing to continue talking about it.


So believe him and take his statements at face value. 

Then the burden now falls upon you to make it clear how to "do it any other way". You might have to be very explicit - things like "I don't like it when you say that to me" won't cut it if he doesn't get a better model. You may have to tell him in detail how to say things and when to not say things. 

Simple changes like "Instead of saying 'you're doing it wrong', ask 'Why are you doing it that way' or 'have you considered this'". Other times, the conversation might go "Fvck off. This isn't a DefCon 1 crisis, leave me alone". 

It's entirely possible that the language and behavior you're seeking from him is as alien to him as the way in which he speaks to you is from your perspective.

Again I say - be prepared to hurt his feelings a little. If he's an engineer, he understands the necessity of breaking eggs to make an omelet.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I started telling my husband that if he didn't like the way I was doing something, that he was free to take it over as one of his chores. He stopped bugging me about stuff.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Kerry
If he is a good engineer then he knows that you often have to deal with non-optimal solutions. A single engineer never controls every aspect of a large project, and if they are good, they know what things are and are not important. The same thing applies at home: If you notice your partner doing something that will have major negative consequences it makes sense to stop and talk to them. If it is trivial, then it is not worth either of your times to discuss. (my wife and I collect the trash around the house differently on garbage day. I'm sure each of us thinks *our* method is superior, but we certainly don't argue about it_.

That said, he should never say anything to put you down. You are his wife and he love you. (or darn well should). Real help with a chore is one thing, but trying to demonstrate one's intellectual superiority by putting down others is never acceptable. 

(I mean I know I'm smarter than anyone else, so why should I bother proving it to them. They are doing the best they can with their pathetic little brains  )


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Know a lady who married a engineer. One night she had a couple drinks in her and we watched as she pretended to be her husband. The best thing she said was when they have sex he damn nears sets up a transit level and tripod to see if the bed is straight and then she went on and said that when he wants her on her hands and knees that maybe she should put a book under her right knee to bring that side of her body a inch and a half higher make the penetration of her level so there's less wear and tear on their equipment. We were laughing so hard at this while the engineer husband tried to defend himself making her point even more valid. THEN he caught on and shut up


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Engineer: It's not a job description, it's a personality type.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Kerry said:


> I feel like I can't do anything right. I mean, from what time of day I do laundry to how I boil eggs, he usually has some "engineer" comment. The thing is, the input is often valid, so I try to keep an open mind. The problem is that I rarely hear any positive input. So, I end up feeling like I suck, especially when I am pre-menstrual.


I think that it would be helpful to know how to respond to your concerns if we knew what kinds of things he is actually saying to you that you are calling “engineer” comments.

Also, when you tell these can you please tell us what his tone of voice is? How loud is he speaking?

Can you give us some examples of the things he says? You bring up two.. laundry and boiling eggs. 

What engineering comment does he make about those? 

Can you give a few more examples as well?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I disagree with some here that her husband's behavior is normal for engineers.

I'm an engineer. My family is full of engineers. I don't do this sort of thing and neither do the engineers in my family.

I also know a lot of engineers from work and as personal friends. 

Nit picking and belittleing their spouse is not the trait of being an engineer. Not trusting others to do normal, everyday tasks and picking on them for it is not part of what makes an engineer click.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Kerry said:


> Do you ever just get worn down by this? Does it not affect your self esteem at all?
> 
> Sometimes I just feel bad about being married to someone who treats me like this (maybe this is just self pity?).
> 
> ...


No it's not self pity. No one should have to deal with someone constantly nick picking what they are dong. I was married to a guy who did this. It's maddening. 

.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Kerry said:


> His response was to ask how he can tell me things without me taking it personally. I explained that it wasn't about me taking it personally (that's where this type of conversation always goes). I suggested that he pace himself or pick his battles.
> 
> 
> Thank you!


why does he *have* to tell you how to do laundry or boil eggs? Just because you are not doing these things his way, doesn't mean you are doing them wrong.He is treating you like a child or a subordinate, and that means that your relationship is unbalanced. He is the smarter one, the decider, you are the one who just needs to shut up and listen. He does not show you respect, he does not respect your feelings. You are not cherished in this relationship. No wonder you just want to pack up and run away.

I don't think subtle and gentle talks will help much, not after fourteen years. You have to show action. Like someone said earlier " you don't like it the way I do it, do it yourself" and leave the kitchen with that egg boiling and him in charge.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,
Your posts are very insightful. 

And I believe that many people would find it emotionally draining if they were subjected to a steady stream of critcism.

So humor me to a couple observations that might be worth sharing with K2. 

Married life is not a vast exercise in time/motion optimization and does not need to be unless you have sired a vast brood of little people. 

While a certain basic competence in the 'mechanics of life' is necessary, most marriages thrive or fail based on the emotional ecosystem in the house. 

So let's look at the intersection of those two aspects of your marriage, the mechanics and the emotions. 

Keep a journal for two weeks. And log his feedback. All of it. Compliments and criticism. And then give him the log with a request. For each time he commented on something you did - what was his primary motivation. 

Is it because the mechanics of your approach substantively impacted him? Or is it because he has a deep need for things to be done 'his way'? Or worse, because he has a need to feel superior to you. If so, why does he feel insecure? 

By the way - here's why I'm guessing it's insecurity. 

Because secure people are comfortable complimenting others. They aren't constantly trying to gain a positional advantage - by limiting their feedback to critiques. 

M2 and I are both big on sincere compliments and thanking each other. 95% of the time M2 wakes up to fresh coffee because I set it up the night before - and we have a timer. She never complains about the missing 5%. She occasionally thanks me for the 95%. 

I'm guessing that for us, the ratio of compliments/thanks you to criticism is between 3-1 and 10-1 depending on how well we are getting along. I absolutely believe that ratio should never fall below 1-1. Because if you honestly believe your partner is getting more substantive stuff wrong than right, you ought not be married. 

And I have a pretty good idea how he may respond to all this:
1. I'm just trying to help you: nonsense - you don't need help 
2. These are 'small' things: In isolation they are small in aggregate they are draining and hurtful. And if they're so small - why does he feel compelled to comment on them? 
3. Why are YOU so sensitive? But I'm not getting that impression at all. It feels like he's the one who is either hypersensitive to efficiency/effectiveness or he's insecure. ANYONE would feel raw if their contributions produce no reaction and their sub optimal approach to laundry generates a comment. 

Part of HIS job as your H is to be emotionally additive to your life. It sounds like he's actually subtractive and has been for a long time. 

If he's so confident that his behavior is defensible, he'll gladly go to marriage counseling with you. But don't suggest it until you've got a two week log of data. It will give the MC some raw data from which to begin. And will prevent him from minimizing the issue....



Kerry said:


> I'm pretty sure he would not respond to this very well. He would shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Kerry said:


> I'm pretty sure he would not respond to this very well. He would shut down.
> 
> *But it's the truth. He needs to konw this.*
> 
> ...


He has to logically connect that his life will be better if he stops doing this. ADMIT THAT YOU TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Own that! Tell him that you are sorry but that is the way you are wired. Just like he is wired to correct you, you are wired to take it personally. Ask him to go off and decide if he thinks his life is better off if he able to verbally criticize you and make you feel miserable and unloved or his he better off holding his judgment back and attempting to make you feel loved and approved by him.... Let him ponder the type of man he wants to be and the type of marriage he wants to have.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,

There's a theme that goes like this: He's just being a 'logical' male and you are just being an irrational and 'sensitive' female. 

I totally reject that type of thinking because - that's not how people succeed at work. The way folks succeed in a work setting is by recognizing and embracing the idea that the single most important resource a group has is emotional energy. 

And recognizing that, emotionally mature folks: 
- Are quick to encourage and support 
- And careful to limit criticism to stuff that's important and deliver the message in a constructive manner

There's nothing logical about sucking the life out of other folks over petty nonsense....





Kerry said:


> I am now exactly where I usually end up when I try to address this with him. I regret bringing it up. He says he just doesn't know how to do it any other way. He doesn't know how to be himself and not offend me.
> 
> He IS willing to continue talking about it.
> 
> ...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Kerry, you should listen to Mem. Good advise,

Don't blame yourself for not having thicker skin so you can just shrug it off. That's the way you are, and you won't change it. He either accepts this and adjusts his behavior, or continue making you, his wife misearable, until one day you simply walk away. And he will come here complaining about walk away wife and how he didn't see it coming.

My guess is that you have already built thicker skin, and shaking many of those snabs at you. But you cannot take it any further.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,
My three - tangible - suggestions are:
1. Keep a log of his feedback / both positive and negative
2. Gradually start spending more time with friends/family who like and respect you - and less time with K2
3. Go to individual counseling (IC) to work on ways you can learn to gradually decrease the emotional impact of his comments









WandaJ said:


> Kerry, you should listen to Mem. Good advise,
> 
> Don't blame yourself for not having thicker skin so you can just shrug it off. That's the way you are, and you won't change it. He either accepts this and adjusts his behavior, or continue making you, his wife misearable, until one day you simply walk away. And he will come here complaining about walk away wife and how he didn't see it coming.
> 
> My guess is that you have already built thicker skin, and shaking many of those snabs at you. But you cannot take it any further.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

The support here has been very helpful.

At the risk of sounding as though I am "protecting" my husband, I don't want this to turn into a bash session of him or engineers or people prone to OCD. He is a human being and has his story and is responding to life in a way that makes sense to him. I don't like it, but instead of letting him know that it is hurting his marriage (in language he can grasp), I have carried anxiety. This is not good for anyone.

I will add that when I stay calm and point things out to him in a way that doesn't place a demand on him, he responds really well. I lose patience though; imagine that! At some point he's going to have to take responsibility for his life. That is going to be his choice and is not something I can "make" him do.

I am going to do some inner work and look inside myself for the beliefs that cause me to tolerate the life I've tolerated for this long by writing off his behavior off as "normal (for an engineer)" or okay.

We all know that I can run from this relationship, but if I don't change the faulty "code" inside of me, I will most likely end up completely avoiding relationships or getting into one that is a bit better, but still has similar undertones. 

This is inner work, so I won't go into it here (not afraid to admit my crap it; just don't want to wax on).

Sincerely and with gratitude.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Post this on the refrigerator:


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

He is acting normally. You are acting normally. I have experienced this exact dynamic in my marriage.

What he doesn't understand: his wife's main emotional need is the exact opposite of telling her how to do things. He should be telling you how great you do things.

What you don't understand: He is frustrated by not being able to tell you anything about how he would like something to be done differerently without getting you upset.

You two have to both move to the middle. You have to tolerate some input from him. He has to avoid giving criticism / input etc. in all but the most crucial situations.

You just have to keep trying until he gets it.

For example if he gets upset about you telling him how you would like to be talked to or treated, you an respond "So it's OK for you to tell me how to fold laundry, but it's not OK for me to tell you how to speak to your wife?"

Engineers are predictable. IF there are negative outcomes from ceratin behaviors he does, and postiive outcomes from other behaviors he does, I'm pretty sure you will see him change.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Post this on the refrigerator:
> 
> View attachment 32441


Why no UML version?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

meson said:


> That was my point with the BJ comment. It was a Use Case scenario he failed to consider.


I will add the BJ requirement in the DOORS database... And define a few test cases while we are at it


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Why no UML version?


LOL. Creating the UML version of this flow diagram has been left as an exercise for the reader.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> I will add the BJ requirement in the DOORS database... And define a few test cases while we are at it


You have to use DOORS? I felt sorry for you for your situation with your wife, but now I'm amazed you can manage to get up in the morning.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm also an engineer (mechanical). One time I was changing my nephew's diaper in the middle of the living room and my DW stepped behind me to inform me of my incredibly poor technique ... Here was my response:

"Dear wife, there may be 50 ways of changing our nephew's diaper, but right now I am doing this my way. Our nephew will not suffer in any way and I guarantee the diaper will not fall down. I need you to step back right now. Should I need diapering advice, you will be the first person I call".

As an engineer, it took me a long time to learn to not offer advice that had not been solicited. Offering unsolicited advice, however well-intentioned, is not caring, it is controlling. I also had to learn to step back.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Post this on the refrigerator:
> 
> View attachment 32441


This...is...brilliant.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

View attachment Family Drama Flowchart.pdf


Rendered in Visio and posted in PDF format for "the fun of it"...


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

*Re: Re: Sex, engineers and feeling like I suck...*



Kerry said:


> Sorry, but I'm LOLing (with you, not at you!). You're suggesting taking an engineer who is very hung up on right and wrong to go to have someone tell him how he's doing it wrong? Been there, done that (several times).
> 
> Thanks anyway!


I think he needs a wake up call on how you feel and how serious this is. You don't want to be around him and are contemplating separation or divorce. 

If he refused to go to MC or IC after that bombshell then don't hold your breath for him to change. 

Him correcting you has nothing to do with him being an engineer. It's because he does not respect you.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Here's some logic for him. 

You don't tell him how to engineer.

He shouldn't tell you how to do anything that you are undertaking. 

It will be tough, because of a myriad of rational reasons. "It works better this way", "It's easier, faster that way", whatever. In the end, he is going to have to accept that he's making you sick with worry and anxiety, and he's GOT TO SHUT UP. If something is in your hands, in your kitchen, or anything your are working on, SHUT UP AND LET ME DO IT.

Promise the same goes go you. No telling him how to part his hair, park the car, or talk to your friends. Hands off for both of you until an opinion is sought.

Your new motto should be DROP IT AND LIVE. I'll call him and tell him if you want.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

jin said:


> Him correcting you has nothing to do with him being an engineer. It's because he does not respect you.


This is perfectly true, OP. He's wired for yes-no, on-off, right-wrong. But the nitpicking and belittling is a personality issue. An engineer will always notice that you're loading the dishwasher "wrong". But one who respects you will learn to keep his mouth shut about it because you've indicated that you're hurt by the criticism.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rowan said:


> This is perfectly true, OP. He's wired for yes-no, on-off, right-wrong. But the nitpicking and belittling is a personality issue. An engineer will always notice that you're loading the dishwasher "wrong". But one who respects you will learn to keep his mouth shut about it because you've indicated that you're hurt by the criticism.


True.

But not before showing you at least once why you're loading the dishwasher wrong. The seasoned engineers leave it at that. The REALLY seasoned engineers understand that you probably don't care to ever be shown how to load the dishwasher. That's when they're ready for the move to management.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

SamuraiJack said:


> View attachment 32449
> 
> 
> Rendered in Visio and posted in PDF format for "the fun of it"...


Thanks. It looks more authoritative in that form! Like whoever designed it knows what they're talking about. 

I actually think it makes sense and might be a good way to get through to engineer type personalities.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

Cletus said:


> The engineer in me would like to say something about the continued importance of recycling regardless, but will exercise the better part of valor.


Well feel free to come pick through my trash anytime!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

Kerry said:


> Do you ever just get worn down by this? Does it not affect your self esteem at all?
> 
> Sometimes I just feel bad about being married to someone who treats me like this (maybe this is just self pity?).
> 
> ...


The short answer to your question is not anymore. We both have our own lives and our life together. We laugh about stuff like this now. My husband did the ol how do I approach you then, and I said, "I'm not going to give you an instruction manual on how to **tch at me." I realize sarcasm doesn't translate to text well, but I'm usually laughing when I say it. He did however, once break out the manual for the dishwasher to show me how to load it properly. It's funny now. I realized his intentions were good, but there's no rule that says I have to listen to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> The seasoned engineers leave it at that. The REALLY seasoned engineers understand that you probably don't care to ever be shown how to load the dishwasher. That's when they're ready for the move to management.


What engineers often lack is the social skills to realize when to say and when not to say something. I'm a non-engineer leader in my team that includes engineers, software developers, and graphics designers and as everyone reports, it's all black and white to the engineers and all shades of gray for the rest of us. 

Try to 'train' your engineer the same way I 'train' mine. By defining qualitative, rather than quantitative goals. This makes them think more in terms of 'what' and less in terms of 'how much'. Our customers don't grade us A-F. I don't grade my team A-F either.

Also provide feedback early and often. Engineers tend to be left alone till they screw up or till they succeed. Communicate early and often. 

Also try to think like them a bit. Not A LOT, but a bit. When you use your intuition, explain it to them also. When you use empathy or plain good ole' conversation skills to draw out answers, explain those. Explain how your mind thinks versus how their mind thinks.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I disagree with some here that her husband's behavior is normal for engineers.
> 
> I'm an engineer. My family is full of engineers. I don't do this sort of thing and neither do the engineers in my family.
> 
> ...


:iagree: This is what I was going to write ... almost to the word, and that includes being an engineer.

Commenting on when and how you do the laundry is nothing to do with being an engineer and everything to do with being obsessive and controlling. Some things are just too little to be worth arguing about unless you are search for something to criticize.

P.S. How do you spot an extrovert engineer at a party? He's the one looking at someone else's shoes when he talks.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Perhaps more direct than you're looking for OP, but simply email him a link to this thread.

One thing I've always been bothered by is the people giving a serious consideration to leaving a marriage, and the other partner has NO CLUE it's that serious. Give him the heads up. It may "soften" his stance a little.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Cletus said:


> True.
> 
> But not before showing you at least once why you're loading the dishwasher wrong. The seasoned engineers leave it at that.


Cletus,

I appreciate your candor. Good point about above. I believe my hubby feels unheard and unappreciated. It hurts him when I shut him down immediately.

Honestly, I am not comfortable with some of the suggestions to tell him to "BACK OFF!" That just is not the person I want to be. When I at least listen to him, it isn't such a big deal. I wouldn't want to hang out with someone who thinks it is okay to say "BACK OFF" to me. We do really well when we can take things slow, but I have a busy schedule and lose patience.

I know that some of this problem is in me. I HATE to get things "wrong" and/or be told what to do. I used to get a little annoyed (didn't show it) when I was a bartender and someone asked me for a refill. I was just mad at myself for not catching it (my own perfection issues). 

It might be helpful to hear from you more about the feeling that is behind that need to "show me once?"

Thanks!


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

john117 said:


> What engineers often lack is the social skills to realize when to say and when not to say something. I'm a non-engineer leader in my team that includes engineers, software developers, and graphics designers and as everyone reports, it's all black and white to the engineers and all shades of gray for the rest of us.
> 
> Try to 'train' your engineer the same way I 'train' mine. By defining qualitative, rather than quantitative goals. This makes them think more in terms of 'what' and less in terms of 'how much'. Our customers don't grade us A-F. I don't grade my team A-F either.
> 
> ...


This is very helpful, and the type of guidance I am looking for.

I am a pretty "inward" person, so a lot of my conversations go on in my head. That probably doesn't help him at all.

Thank you.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Ms. GP said:


> ...He did however, once break out the manual for the dishwasher to show me how to load it properly.


 *grins* My wife just goes behind me and reloads everything. It used to drive me nuts...Now I just let her load it...but I do the cooking so it's all good. LOL!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lila said:


> I'll preface this with my husband is also an engineer and does seem to enjoy _sharing_ his methods for improving chore _processes_ with me. I'm not a huge fan but I've learned to cope.
> 
> Showing anger never works. All it does is start fights that never fail to snowball out of control.
> 
> ...


Yeah.... that would not work with me. I do not have patience to treat adults like children. But this shows how the same issues may become deal breaker in one marriage, and just nuisance in another, all depending on personality of the partner.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Kerry said:


> Cletus,
> 
> It might be helpful to hear from you more about the feeling that is behind that need to "show me once?"
> 
> Thanks!


Engineers design things. We take pride in an elegant solution to a complex problem. We appreciate such a solution from others, and we understand that there are ways of using the tools in our life correctly and, to varying degrees, incorrectly.

Let's take the dishwasher as an example. Ours has two spinning water jets, one high, one low. If, as my wife is wont to do, you load something too tall in the lower tub, you block the rotation of the upper jet, which is *designed* to spin to work effectively. Does that mean the glasses in the upper tray don't get cleaned properly? I don't really know - I've never done the controlled experiment to find out, but I do know that the tool was designed to work a certain way. When I see you load it incorrectly, interfering with its operation, I feel obliged to point that out. I know my wife doesn't give this sort of thing much if any thought.

I have a stock story that I go to for this topic too. The rear view and side view mirrors on your car work best when you set them correctly (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cartalk.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffeatures%2Fmirrors%2FCarTalkMirrors.pdf&ei=NrroVIrILIrzoATs-IDoDg&usg=AFQjCNGqNVIcKomkCXuCoq7Sd1dwR_fOJg&sig2=y7OScDrhhLpFma01BkC4Jw&bvm=bv.86475890,d.cGU&cad=rja). When you don't set them correctly, you increase the size of your blind spot and the chance of a collision. My wife does not care. I have tried several times to tell her how to do this and why - she just does not care. This one actually is safety related, so I pushed harder than I would on the dishwasher, but ultimately I had to give up.

Getting older and wiser helps you figure out which of these kinds of things are worth a little friction and which are not, but both have roots in the same principle.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Engineers design things. We take pride in an elegant solution to a complex problem. We appreciate such a solution from others, and we understand that there are ways of using the tools in our life correctly and, to varying degrees, incorrectly.
> 
> Let's take the dishwasher as an example. Ours has two spinning water jets, one high, one low. If, as my wife is wont to do, you load something too tall in the lower tub, you block the rotation of the upper jet, which is *designed* to spin to work effectively. Does that mean the glasses in the upper tray don't get cleaned properly? I don't really know - I've never done the controlled experiment to find out, but I do know that the tool was designed to work a certain way. When I see you load it incorrectly, interfering with its operation, I feel obliged to point that out. I know my wife doesn't give this sort of thing much if any thought.
> 
> ...


Best Post Ever.

OP

You are responsible for your own feelings. Why is it that you feel belittled when all your husband is doing is trying to help? I bet if Channing Tatum showed you how to load a dishwasher you'd be all ears. 

I have a spreadsheet grocery list arranged in a flow pattern of how I walk thru the store. You can make fun of me but I get in and out of there 30 minutes faster. 

His help is harmless with good intentions and maybe some of the problem is how you interpret his help. Try trusting his intentions. Try understanding who he is and what he is good at. Don't resent him for it.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

For the record, if Channing Tatum tried to show me how to load a dishwasher, I would think he was a tool and boycott all his movies!! But the spread sheet idea is pretty cool. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lila said:


> So I've implemented methods that I use at work to deal with management. When he feels it's necessary to "instruct" me on something I:
> 
> a) Very sweetly ask him to show me what he is talking about. Then I say "Wow, you're awesome babe. You're doing such a great job with [whatever chore], I'm going to let you finish it." Then I pat him on the butt and quickly make my exit. This is the "sugar and spice" approach.
> 
> ...


:lol::rofl: Love it. That should work in many cases.


I had asked the OP to give some examples so that we'd get a much better idea of what's going on. What she is describing could be one of two things...

Her husband could be a guy like yours, and those ideas would work.

Or he could be a guy like my ex (son's father). In that case those things you suggest would make him belittle me further and things would get a lot worse.

But OP has not given any examples so we have no idea is she's getting advice that really fits her situation.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> 3. Go to individual counseling (IC) to work on ways you can learn to gradually decrease the emotional impact of his comments


Disagree. The solution to someone making controlling or negative comments is not for the recipient to learn better how to deal with them anymore than the solution for the recipient of abuse is to learn how to better treat bruises. The solution is for the instigator to learn how not to do it in the first place.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's why it was the third item on a list of 3.

The first two were about managing his behavior. 

Anyone who gets upset when asked for a refill while bar tending - might benefit from IC. 

Just because being asked for a refill (makes you feel bad) doesn't mean it's abuse. 

I suggested IC because after first suggesting MC, the OP stated that they've repeatedly done MC to no effect. 




WonkyNinja said:


> Disagree. The solution to someone making controlling or negative comments is not for the recipient to learn better how to deal with them anymore than the solution for the recipient of abuse is to learn how to better treat bruises. The solution is for the instigator to learn how not to do it in the first place.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Perhaps more direct than you're looking for OP, but simply email him a link to this thread.
> 
> One thing I've always been bothered by is the people giving a serious consideration to leaving a marriage, and the other partner has NO CLUE it's that serious. Give him the heads up. It may "soften" his stance a little.


This brings up the whole "walk away wife" issue. I hear you that you're bothered, but I suspect the reason the other partner has no clue is because they choose not to listen and truly hear what's going on.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Anyone who gets upset when asked for a refill while bar tending - might benefit from IC.
> 
> Just because being asked for a refill (makes you feel bad) doesn't mean it's abuse.


Mind you, this was over 20 years ago and I didn't at all feel abused. It was me being hard on myself. I think you get that, but just being clear.



MEM11363 said:


> I suggested IC because after first suggesting MC, the OP stated that they've repeatedly done MC to no effect.


Just to clarify, I've gone to IC on and off throughout the entire relationship. He has gone to two appointments with me (two different counselors). I've suggested MC, but his response is usually "this shouldn't be so hard" or "why can't we just get along."

Thanks.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,
I know its not abusive. And I knew that you knew it wasn't abusive. 

My comment was directed at wonky ninja who seems to feel that your husband is abusing you and therefore my suggestion for you to seek IC was inappropriate. 





Kerry said:


> Mind you, this was over 20 years ago and I didn't at all feel abused. It was me being hard on myself. I think you get that, but just being clear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Kerry,
> I know its not abusive. And I knew that you knew it wasn't abusive.
> 
> My comment was directed at wonky ninja who seems to feel that your husband is abusing you and therefore my suggestion for you to seek IC was inappropriate.


Hi MEM,

Yes, that makes sense and I totally get it. I was just being clear in the way I convey my story. It gets a little out of hand on these boards. The do serve a purpose, but we all come at it things with our views based on our own experiences. 

I am really wanting to clear up my own crap here before I go "throwing stones." As I said in my original post, I know that I am really sensitive and I don't think that truly serves anyone.

Just hearing some feedback from other engineers has been helpful. I know what engineers are like and I know there's a difference b/t control, OCD, and being a good engineer, etc. I've worked with a lot of techies. I think when you're in it, and you toss your own "stuff" into the mix, it gets a little murky.

I hope you're having a good day.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,

I am. And I hope you are having a good day as well. 

I have some understanding of your situation because M2 is a bit OCD and when my blood sugar is trashed I am definitely hyper sensitive. 

I DO believe intent is key. 

For instance, in our 1-1 interactions M2 is terrific. Totally into me. 

When we socialize, she becomes mischievous. She will make comments about me that are often funny, but unflattering. 

This used to upset me. Then I realized M2 only did this when she felt 'left out'. So, when she starts down this path, I turn the focus of the conversation to her - in a positive manner. Soon as she stops feeling left out - she stops making mischief. 

Motives matter. 





Kerry said:


> Hi MEM,
> 
> Yes, that makes sense and I totally get it. I was just being clear in the way I convey my story. It gets a little out of hand on these boards. The do serve a purpose, but we all come at it things with our views based on our own experiences.
> 
> ...


----------



## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Kerry,
> I know its not abusive. And I knew that you knew it wasn't abusive.
> 
> My comment was directed at wonky ninja who seems to feel that your husband is abusing you and therefore my suggestion for you to seek IC was inappropriate.


Abuse takes many forms and it doesn't have to be physical. My comment was actually meant as an analogy. I've reread it and stand by what I said.

That being said constant criticism in a relationship is a form of emotional abuse. It is belittling, harms the self esteem and is not conducive to an equal partnership.

I'm not suggesting that you should never criticize or correct your SO as constructive disagreement should make the relationship stronger, but that is very different from what the OP described.

I agree that she probably needs IC but the solution is in his change of behavior.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I keep reading this thread wondering when the sex with an engineer part is going to start.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I actually believe that emotional abuse often ALSO takes a physical toll on the victim over time. Chronic saturation of stress hormones is really bad for you.

From what we've heard, it troubles me that the husband is reacting the way he is - when the OP tells him this pattern is making her feel bad. 

The reason I asked her to keep a log of his feedback is simple. 

When your partner gives you a lot of positive feedback you tend to feel loved and respected. Constructive criticism in that context tends not to feel bad. Certainly not nearly as bad as it does if your partner limits their feedback to criticism. 

Without a clearer picture of the frequency, good to bad ratio, tone used and timing of the feedback, it's hard to have a strong opinion regarding their dynamic. 

Is he mildly OCD and inconsiderate or is he insecure and making himself feel better at the expense of her self esteem. 

Even without a lot of detail, I admit having a strong bias in these situations. When one spouse is clearly upset and the 'happy / satisfied' spouse avoids or refuses MC, that's a big red flag. 

His comment that: it shouldn't be this hard - struck me as very selfish. 

Folks who are too busy to make a couple hours a week for something that's very important to the *most important person in their life*, strike me as selfish. Whether that's MC, sex or just about anything else, if it's important to them - it ought to be important enough to you by proxy to actively participate.....




WonkyNinja said:


> Abuse takes many forms and it doesn't have to be physical. My comment was actually meant as an analogy. I've reread it and stand by what I said.
> 
> That being said constant criticism in a relationship is a form of emotional abuse. It is belittling, harms the self esteem and is not conducive to an equal partnership.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Hi MEM,

I am reading through this entire thread again. I think you've really nailed it in this post. From the part of the emotional drain, to insecurity, to his responses, to keeping a journal, to the lack of compliments (and insecurity), and his emotionally adding to or subtracting from my life, it is all right here.

I have been dancing at the door of these issues for a very long time. I know that I've reached that point where I just can't not face it any longer. I am also no longer attached to any outcome.

I've known all the above things for the entire marriage. I just didn't want to face that I made a mistake. I didn't want to "hurt him" and I didn't want to even consider that I married someone who lacked character. Plus, I, too, had my own crap to work on.

I also didn't want to put my needs and desires on the table because I risked having them denied. My own selfishness is in here too...not wanting to hear that I shouldn't do or have something that I want. This is still in the mix and something for me to be honest about with myself and him.

Thanks for your insight. 

Kerry




MEM11363 said:


> Kerry,
> Your posts are very insightful.
> 
> And I believe that many people would find it emotionally draining if they were subjected to a steady stream of critcism.
> ...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

WonkyNinja said:


> Disagree. The solution to someone making controlling or negative comments is not for the recipient to learn better how to deal with them anymore than the solution for the recipient of abuse is to learn how to better treat bruises. The solution is for the instigator to learn how not to do it in the first place.


A lot of "controlling or negative" comments aren't actually about control or demeaning, but rather process improvement. If I observe a given procedure and think of changes that save someone time or effort, I feel somewhat obligated to let them know. Whether they implement the suggestion doesn't really matter to me if the end result is the same. The intent is generally to help. I suspect this is the case for a lot of logic-minded folks.

Mem's bullet acknowledges that what is perceived as a slight, may also be an innocent helpful suggestion. How it is received is a combination of delivery, frequency, value and sensitivity. Counseling could help both of them learn new delivery and response methods and teach them to have greater mindfulness during these events.

The reason nit picks are nit picks, is that while they may be appropriate helpful corrections, the degree of improvement isn't worth the cost of correction. Take away the nit picks and the frequency of suggestion is greatly reduced and perhaps alleviates her feelings of incompetence.

Hubs probably needs to do more cost-benefit analysis on his suggestions, and wifey probably could try to interpret the bigger impact items as more helpful than berating. This would be much more productive than trying to isolate blame or demand changes from a single party.


----------



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> A lot of "controlling or negative" comments aren't actually about control or demeaning, but rather process improvement. If I observe a given procedure and think of changes that save someone time or effort, I feel somewhat obligated to let them know. Whether they implement the suggestion doesn't really matter to me if the end result is the same. The intent is generally to help. I suspect this is the case for a lot of logic-minded folks.


I agree and I think this is the case with my husband. It feels to me like the intentions can be broken out as follows:
Approx 70% - it's process improvement
Approx 20% - it's fear. Fear that something I do will cost him time or cost us money or cause something "bad" to happen.
Approx 10% - it is about insecurity where he wants to be the "smart one" and/or wants credit for knowing the answer.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Mem's bullet acknowledges that what is perceived as a slight, may also be an innocent helpful suggestion. How it is received is a combination of delivery, frequency, value and sensitivity. Counseling could help both of them learn new delivery and response methods and teach them to have greater mindfulness during these events.


I think it is the frequency that wears me down. And, that he has turned into the critical voice in my head and I don't think for myself sometimes. My identifying the differences and addressing them accordingly (a response in order of the above list: 70% thank you or I do or don't want process improvement help at this moment, 20% tell me what is concerning you, 10% I feel uncomfortable with what's going on here; I'd like to talk about it now or when we're in a good space to do so).



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The reason nit picks are nit picks, is that while they may be appropriate helpful corrections, the degree of improvement isn't worth the cost of correction. Take away the nit picks and the frequency of suggestion is greatly reduced and perhaps alleviates her feelings of incompetence.


Yes, yes, yes!!! This is well put. And is in language that is natural to me and that I can use. 

I (almost) always want process improvement...I am a huge fan of it in business! I like it and am really into efficiency! I know he doesn't want to be a nit pick.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Hubs probably needs to do more cost-benefit analysis on his suggestions,


I feel that I could convey this to him in business language that an engineer would understand. I speak better biz language than engineer language, but feel that it translates well.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> and wifey probably could try to interpret the bigger impact items as more helpful than berating. This would be much more productive than trying to isolate blame or demand changes from a single party.


Yes, I am willing to do this. And, having broken out things into percentages as I did above will help me separate and treat each issue.

Thank you so much. This has been one of several incredibly enlightening and productive posts.

Sincerely,
Kerry


----------



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Cletus said:


> I keep reading this thread wondering when the sex with an engineer part is going to start.


Ha ha ha. Well, my wish is that I would "want" to initiate sex more often. Part of what prompted me to post in TMC was seeing the question about Valentine's Day BJs. It caused me to think about how I wanted to give my husband that type of gift (and not just on Valentine's Day), but b/c of some underlying issues (and b/c around him I feel like I suck...little pun intended), I don't do it.

We actually have a good sex life, but I would be so much more into it if I felt more comfortable around him.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, something else to consider in your percentages, that may be a big part of the issue, is how often you hear critiques versus compliments. If you're getting 10 criticisms or "suggestions for process improvements" to every 1 compliment or affirmation, then that can be a huge problem. It's hard to keep hearing critiques as a positive thing, if you rarely hear him say anything that's actually positive. If that's what's going on, you may need to discuss with him that you not only need him to lay off some of the criticisms, but you _also_ need him to increase the number of positive comments. Affirmation is a legitimate emotional need.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Rowan said:


> OP, something else to consider in your percentages, that may be a big part of the issue, is how often you hear critiques versus compliments. If you're getting 10 criticisms or "suggestions for process improvements" to every 1 compliment or affirmation, then that can be a huge problem. It's hard to keep hearing critiques as a positive thing, if you rarely hear him say anything that's actually positive. If that's what's going on, you may need to discuss with him that you not only need him to lay off some of the criticisms, but you _also_ need him to increase the number of positive comments. Affirmation is a legitimate emotional need.


Excellent point. I told him years ago that I need some balance. I just don't know that he is very interested in pointing out things he likes. He tends to find what's wrong with things (and people) and works from there.

At some point, it is just humiliating to have to ask someone to say nice things to you.

I appreciate you saying that it is a legitimate emotional need. It is one that, sadly, I've gone without for a very long time.

Thank you.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Have you read _His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley? Another good one from the same author is _Lovebusters_. If you haven't read either, I recommend them both. Even better, see if your husband will read them, either independently or with you. I think what you're encountering is probably a combination of what Dr. Harley would call lovebusters and unmet emotional needs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,

Here's what's obvious - about you - from your thread: 
- smart
- good writer
- fair and balanced
- sad and anxious about this situation (but not angry and vindictive)
- self aware 

Because of that, I'm certain you provide your H plenty of opportunities to compliment you. 

That said, I agree with you that there is no satisfaction from a compliment that you yourself had to request. 

So - in terms of the 5 love languages - your H is weak when it comes to 'words of affirmation'. And yet he's quite the love buster 
regarding negative feedback. 

How does he typically show you he loves you? 






Kerry said:


> Excellent point. I told him years ago that I need some balance. I just don't know that he is very interested in pointing out things he likes. He tends to find what's wrong with things (and people) and works from there.
> 
> At some point, it is just humiliating to have to ask someone to say nice things to you.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

MEM,

Thank you for your kind words. The fact that you noticed and took the time to acknowledge those things means a lot to me.

Sorry for the slow reply. I wrote a much longer response with a bunch of my own philosophical insights. I might share them later b/c I think they shed light on why I struggle and why he is confused. But, I've set that aside and, for now, I'll just answer the question at hand...

* He "looks out for me" by picking up on things that he's concerned I'll miss...
- Did you remember to: cancel your hotel room; renew your car registration; pay your insurance bill; etc. Not always, but consistently. (I manage a lot at work, so I guess I could take this negatively or see it as him being a pal).
* Encourages me to stand up for myself at work and with family.
* Takes care of things around our property to save us money, keep us self-reliant
* Designed and built us a home that is energy efficient and set us up for "easier" living/retirement (we built it together, and both put in a ton of manual labor)
* Changes the oil in my car (I help)
* Asks me if I'm warm enough. He manages the thermostat b/c he coordinates with the outside temps/conditions to minimize energy use.
* He took two physical hits while protecting me in two situations (weird that both cases involved dogs and we both love dogs...we even met walking our dogs).
* One year at Christmas he was busy with clients and sweetly suggested I go home for the holidays and spend time with family. He helped me find a good deal on flights.
* He helped with an inheritance situation (from a very distant relative, not something the least bit "expected") by being encouraging and it saved me a substantial amount of money in "finder's" fees.
* Often sends me cute videos/pictures via email.
* Occasionally sends me emails with inspirational quotes b/c he knows I like them.
* Occasionally sends me emails with informational things that help me at work.
* Often sends me emails with news items that keep me informed and that we're both interested in.
* Totally plans our vacations (checks in with me for my preferences). Finds us awesome deals and adventurous things to do.
* Carefully researches movies to find ones that we'll enjoy. Often finds ones that I really like. They give us interesting things to talk about.
* Helps me with laundry, even when it is mostly mine (sometimes I don't let him b/c I enjoy the solitude...I often hang my clothes outside)
* Does his own food shopping, cooking and cleans up after himself. (not sure this counts?)
* Manages all of our lawn/garden equipment
* Fixes our cars, equipment, etc. himself and saves us money.
* A kind thing he said to me about 1.5 years ago: "I know you would have." This was in response to me saying, "I didn't want to do that, but I would have," which was about a very difficult task that I faced, but ended up not having to do.
We usually exchange a nice hug and a simple kiss when we see each other around the house (we both work from home).


Thanks,
Kerry




MEM11363 said:


> Kerry,
> 
> Here's what's obvious - about you - from your thread:
> - smart
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,
Incredibly helpful. 

There are folks who have a deep phobia of / obsession with waste. Wasting resources causes them extreme distress. 

Unfortunately even small amounts of waste distress them. 

Can be very draining to have a partner like this. 







Kerry said:


> MEM,
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. The fact that you noticed and took the time to acknowledge those things means a lot to me.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry,
Sorry - I realize my earlier response wasn't helpful. 

That's a good list. He actually does a lot of positive things for you. 

And to be fair - when someone is this consistent - I try to give them some latitude. For example design/build an energy efficient / retirement friendly home. That's a big thing. And it's a big thing that you jumped in and helped build it, not all spouses would do so. 

My earlier response was because M2 can at times behave the way your H does. She's made a major effort to improve. 

The difference is - She was only being irrationally cheap with me on occasion - and other than that M2 was doing a lot of things right. So the overall was positive despite episodes of behavior that I found very upsetting. 

Your H is rock solid when it comes to the mechanics of life. And your list bears that out. He's weak at the intangibles. 

The thing is, when you're comfortable, or even affluent, the mechanics matter less. 

All that said - the one thing M2 did a few times, caused me to start looking for apartments - was she combined a lack of gratitude with a big dose of 'this is how I am'. 

So here's the thing. Each time I told her I'd found an apartment she responded the same way:
- I'm sorry for being ungrateful
- I'll try harder not to be so difficult 

And I'd say her follow thru was good. 

You ought to consider that as an option. Three months. It gives both you and your partner time and space to experience life apart. 

That said, when I proposed moving out, I was prepared for and fully ok with the possibility that M2 might go straight to the nuclear option and respond by filing. I'd reached the end of the road in terms of what I would tolerate. 

But that is a path each person needs to carefully assess for themselves. 





Kerry said:


> MEM,
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. The fact that you noticed and took the time to acknowledge those things means a lot to me.
> 
> ...


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Total "Acts of Service" guy when it comes to showing love...


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Thank you SJ,



SamuraiJack said:


> Total "Acts of Service" guy when it comes to showing love...


Yes, for sure. There are a few disconnects though...

The acts tend to be the ones that make _him_ feel good or that he "_thinks_" should make me feel good. Sometimes if he misses the mark he just can't take the constructive feedback (b/c of his own perfection issues...and I have them too).

Also, since I see that is his love language is acts of service I want to know what I can do for him. He gives nebulous answers when I ask, but is demanding when he wants something that I don't guess.

We are similar in that we both hate to ask for things (stubbornly independent so as to not be vulnerable?). 

I hate to intrude on the clubhouse here, but I feel like I get more out of this forum. Maybe because there are some role reversals in my marriage (he's at home more, more "particular" about the house, I have more interaction with people, I am more secure emotionally/around people, etc.).

I feel better about myself after visiting here, and *not* at all at his expense. I want us both to be uplifted, and if that is not possible then there are some big decisions to be made. I see how incredibly strong I am to have weathered this (not that anyone should have to). I don't want a relationship where one person is subservient, and I don't think he wants that either. I see my own control issues too (who, me?)!

And, btw, I see how my dysfunction (and sometimes very sh!tty behavior) has fed into his issues.

I am going to get some IC for me, but only if I can find someone who will maintain focus on MY role in all of this and coach me as I develop the courage to always do the right thing (for all, not to keep the peace). It is really easy to focus on the other person...what's that saying about the splinter in my brother's eye, but not the beam in my own? If I can't find this type of support, I swear I'll just do this on my own and I *will* create a positive outcome (though support would be nice).

Thanks to all for some really constructive and well-thought-out support.

Kerry


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