# selfishness vs incompatibilyt



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some of the discussions of sexual problems tend to blend incompatibility and selfishness.

I think that they are quite different. It is possible for a couple to both be open to pleasing each other, but what they enjoy sexually is just very different. If one wants romance, candles and gentle lovemaking and the other wants handcuffs and rough fckng there may be very little common that they can both enjoy. This may in no way be the fault of either.

The other case is where one is just plain selfish - they don't care about their partner's wants, they only care about their own enjoyment in bed. This usually is seen in other parts of the marrige as well.

Of course (as with a couple I know), you sometimes get both.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Just my opinion, but I believe there are many more that fall into the category of incompatibility, than just selfishness. 

I remember one such discussion on a different forum, about a 'sexual preference questionnaire' that couples should fill out and exchange prior to marriage.
May sound crazy, but, maybe not so crazy. 
Too many find out later, that they are far apart on such matters, and when one or both are unwilling to change......it explains a lot.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> The other case is where one is just plain selfish - they don't care about their partner's wants, *they only care about their own enjoyment in bed.* This usually is seen in other parts of the marrige as well.


As in, "I want you to want me in the specific ways that I want to be wanted" type of thing? Also known as the husband that craves nothing more than a wife that would actually beg just to give him a blow job. Then he could repeatedly say "no" just to enjoy seeing her work really hard for the opportunity.

...wait a minute I got myself all aroused, what were we discussing again?

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I agree with you that selfishness and incompatibility are two completely separate reasons for sexual problems, and I also agree that sexual incompatibility accounts for the vast majority of 'sexless marriage' problems we read about on TAM. 

I believe people are either sexually compatible or they are not, and when they are not, the only option available to them, as a couple, is coping (lowered expectations for sexual satisfaction or finding other ways to get needs met). It's a simple concept to understand but an impossible thing to force between two people. 

The tougher problem to tackle is when couples start out compatible but life events cause their views to change in different directions. Couples maintaining sexual compatibility long term throughout their marriage is a much more difficult concept to understand but sometimes fixable.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

My ex was extremely selfish, in bed and out of it.

That was incompatible with me.


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## blessedhusband (Apr 10, 2016)

Without selfishness, "incompatibility" could have no impact on a marriage. Respect, trust, compromise, service, communication, and compassion are equally important in all rooms of the home. When two people are truly committed to one another and committed to these values, everything else either falls into place or is completely irrelevant. Just because a husband and wife may find it hard to have an orgasm at the same time because of differing triggers or fetishes does not make them "incompatible" with one another, nor does it diminish the value, potential, or benefits of their marriage. If both are more worried about pleasing their spouse than about pleasing themselves, then they will naturally end up taking turns. One person gets an orgasm and the humbling reassurance that they are valued by their spouse; the other person gets the priceless joy that comes with selflessly serving their spouse and seeing their spouse happy. The next time, they trade roles and rewards. If this is not how things are working out in your marriage, then talk to your spouse about it openly and humbly or seek counseling. 
I cringe when I hear the word "incompatible" used to suggest that two people should not be together simply because they are not identical in every way. Sure, some differences are more difficult to work through than others, and sometimes couples are simply not able to reconcile their differences despite a strong desire on both sides to do so. This is especially true with differences in core values, beliefs, and cultural customs. But sexual fantasies and fetishes are not what marriage is about. Take it from someone with a high sex drive and very deviant fetishes who has had sex just once in the last two years thanks to the libido-killing and personality-altering effects of my wife's medications. Even before the meds, there never was and never will be a chance of my wife embracing my fantasies and fetishes, as much as I may wish it could be so. I'm not sure there is anyone on this forum facing more differences in the bedroom than me. But I am committed to my wife 100%, and I can't think of two people more "compatible" than we are.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agree with all this. 

Important to add that selfishness can be very much in the eye of the beholder. 

In a large chunk of sexually broken marriages, the writing was on the wall before the first child. Tons of posts from folks who say: Once we got married our sex life mostly died. 

They proceed to tell their story - which goes something like this: several years later we had our first child. And things got even worse and then a second child after which it became sexless. 

The way that looks to me is that the HD loved their partner and wasn't willing to directly address the issue prior to kids. That seems like a type of selfishness. 




blessedhusband said:


> Without selfishness, "incompatibility" could have no impact on a marriage. Respect, trust, compromise, service, communication, and compassion are equally important in all rooms of the home. When two people are truly committed to one another and committed to these values, everything else either falls into place or is completely irrelevant. Just because a husband and wife may find it hard to have an orgasm at the same time because of differing triggers or fetishes does not make them "incompatible" with one another, nor does it diminish the value, potential, or benefits of their marriage. If both are more worried about pleasing their spouse than about pleasing themselves, then they will naturally end up taking turns. One person gets an orgasm and the humbling reassurance that they are valued by their spouse; the other person gets the priceless joy that comes with selflessly serving their spouse and seeing their spouse happy. The next time, they trade roles and rewards. If this is not how things are working out in your marriage, then talk to your spouse about it openly and humbly or seek counseling.
> I cringe when I hear the word "incompatible" used to suggest that two people should not be together simply because they are not identical in every way. Sure, some differences are more difficult to work through than others, and sometimes couples are simply not able to reconcile their differences despite a strong desire on both sides to do so. This is especially true with differences in core values, beliefs, and cultural customs. But sexual fantasies and fetishes are not what marriage is about. Take it from someone with a high sex drive and very deviant fetishes who has had sex just once in the last two years thanks to the libido-killing and personality-altering effects of my wife's medications. Even before the meds, there never was and never will be a chance of my wife embracing my fantasies and fetishes, as much as I may wish it could be so. I'm not sure there is anyone on this forum facing more differences in the bedroom than me. But I am committed to my wife 100%, and I can't think of two people more "compatible" than we are.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Important to add that selfishness can be very much in the eye of the beholder.


Very much so.

My ex wife and I weren't sexually compatible. Not because we didn't share similar interests, but because (as I've mentioned here before) there were physical impediments. I was too big for her (or rather, she too small for me, I'm not huge), she had TMJ/lockjaw, she had a hyper sensitive clit, which made contact painful. I would hit her cervix every time, if I wasn't careful (again, this was her being small, not me being huge). She had an extreme aversion to semen getting anywhere near her, or on her.

In short, there wasn't a whole lot we could do. In the early days, we (she) tried. As time went on, all she wanted was a "wham bam, thank you ma'am". That was what SHE wanted. She initiated more than I did, believe it or not. But foreplay was 10-20 seconds of manual stimulation for me, and about the same amount of oral on her (going nowhere near her clit. If I accidentally brushed it, forget it...)

To this day, I still have no idea what she got out of it, or why she continued to want this. No complaints, at least I got something. But I promise you, it had nothing to do with her being nice to me, or being unselfish. It wasn't for me.

But whereas she, once upon a time, made an effort to satisfy me, it became what I described above, and was like that the last 8 or 9 years we were together. And she couldn't have cared less what pleasure I was receiving, as evident by her telling me to hurry up, or asking if I was close.

That played with my mind BIG time, as she was usually the one to initiate this, then seemingly received no pleasure from it, and proceeded to hurry me up.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

blessedhusband said:


> If both are more worried about pleasing their spouse than about pleasing themselves, then they will naturally end up taking turns. One person gets an orgasm and the humbling reassurance that they are valued by their spouse; the other person gets the priceless joy that comes with selflessly serving their spouse and seeing their spouse happy. *The next time, they trade roles and rewards*. If this is not how things are working out in your marriage, then talk to your spouse about it openly and humbly or seek counseling.
> .


When does THAT happen???

I have yet to know a man who would sacrifice HIS orgasm just so his wife could get off, and do it _regularly_.

It seems that either the wife gives her husband a BJ or a HJ and doesn't get her orgasm OR they BOTH get an orgasm.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Vega said:


> When does THAT happen???
> 
> I have yet to know a man who would sacrifice HIS orgasm just so his wife could get off, and do it _regularly_.
> 
> It seems that either the wife gives her husband a BJ or a HJ and doesn't get her orgasm OR they BOTH get an orgasm.


Agree! I've met lots of men who feel it is women's duty to give them stand-alone orgasms and quickies designed to please him, while easily accepting that his pleasure is (or should be) enough to make her happy (so bonding, don'tcha know), but I have yet to meet the man who will have sex without orgasm just to give her pleasure. (This seems to be frequently justified by men needing sex more than women.)


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Vega said:


> When does THAT happen???
> 
> I have yet to know a man who would sacrifice HIS orgasm just so his wife could get off, and do it _regularly_.
> 
> It seems that either the wife gives her husband a BJ or a HJ and doesn't get her orgasm OR they BOTH get an orgasm.


I wouldn't play that game with my wife. Why on earth would I want to set a precedence that an orgasm in something to be withheld? For what purpose?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

You know what bugs me about these threads? The common notion that something is broken about the wife. She must be selfish, deficient, naive or sexually dysfunctional.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know what bugs me about these threads? The common notion that something is broken about the wife. She must be selfish, deficient, naive or sexually dysfunctional.


It seems that female sexuality is much more of a complex issue. The whole responsive desire stuff as well as more judgments thrown at them by society. Men are much simpler - touch penis and proceed to sex.

The thing that gets me is that even if it is the woman that is broken, why is she? Would she be like that with any man, or is the issue related to how she is with just her husband?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't know about "sacrifice" but sometimes with some couples men will do things for their partners but not get an O in return.

While PE is a well known issue for men, delayed ejaculation is pretty common too. For men with that issue, its quite common to provide their partners an O but not get one in return. 




Vega said:


> When does THAT happen???
> 
> I have yet to know a man who would sacrifice HIS orgasm just so his wife could get off, and do it _regularly_.
> 
> It seems that either the wife gives her husband a BJ or a HJ and doesn't get her orgasm OR they BOTH get an orgasm.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Agree! I've met lots of men who feel it is women's duty to give them stand-alone orgasms and quickies designed to please him, while easily accepting that his pleasure is (or should be) enough to make her happy (so bonding, don'tcha know), but I have yet to meet the man who will have sex without orgasm just to give her pleasure. (This seems to be frequently justified by men needing sex more than women.)


In the past few years there have been a handful of times when my wife was good to go for round 2, even more rare round 3 lol! Anyway, from time to time we do go for a while and she has an enjoyable time and then I choose to stop because well, it ain't going to happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that. 

But in general, yes round 1 I always get mine . If the equipment is in working order with no delayed ejaculation issues, I'm highly skeptical of any male that suggests they trade off on who has an orgasm.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I've done that fairly frequently - but it may not be common.



always_alone said:


> Agree! I've met lots of men who feel it is women's duty to give them stand-alone orgasms and quickies designed to please him, while easily accepting that his pleasure is (or should be) enough to make her happy (so bonding, don'tcha know), but I have yet to meet the man who will have sex without orgasm just to give her pleasure. (This seems to be frequently justified by men needing sex more than women.)


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
the original post was gender neutral because from what I've read on boards like this, the issues can go either way. There can be incompatibility and either men or women can be selfish lovers.




NobodySpecial said:


> You know what bugs me about these threads? The common notion that something is broken about the wife. She must be selfish, deficient, naive or sexually dysfunctional.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

anonmd said:


> In the past few years there have been a handful of times when my wife was good to go for round 2, even more rare round 3 lol! Anyway, from time to time we do go for a while and she has an enjoyable time and then I choose to stop because well, it ain't going to happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
> 
> But in general, yes round 1 I always get mine . If the equipment is in working order with no delayed ejaculation issues, I'm highly skeptical of any male that suggests they trade off on who has an orgasm.


Yeah! 
My wife can go 5 or 6 sometimes, I could too when younger, but pretty tough duty anymore. 
So, if I can only do 2 or 3, and she wants more, I gladly oblige! 
So, I get all I can handle, and so does she. Neither of us 'sacrificing', or 'trading off'.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> the original post was gender neutral because from what I've read on boards like this, the issues can go either way. There can be incompatibility and either men or women can be selfish lovers.


AFAIC the only selfish lovers are ones who want their partners to do something that they don't want to do.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
sorry, I can't parse that uniquely. 

If by "something *they* don't want to do", do you mean that person "A" wants "B" to do something "B" doesn't want to do? I think it depends - A might be selfish if they are asking B to do something that is very unpleasant of painful for B. B might be selfish if they are only willing to do things that they personally enjoy, but expect A to do other things.

If by "something *they* don't want to do" do you mean that person "A" wants "B" to do something for A, that A isn't willing to do for "B". For example "A" wants oral sex from "B", but won't reciprocate. I think this is often selfish, but for opposite sex couples things are symmetric - fore example oral sex on a woman is different from oral sex on a man. Some will claim that the difference is so large that is is reasonable for oral to be done by one, but refused by the other.







NobodySpecial said:


> AFAIC the only selfish lovers are ones who want their partners to do something that they don't want to do.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> AFAIC the only selfish lovers are ones who want their partners to do something that they don't want to do.


So when a guy is done, rolls over and leaves his wife hanging, and she wants him to continue but he no longer wants to......she's being selfish?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Well I disagree with the original premise that incompatibility and selfishness are different things. I think they are two sides of the same coin and the only real difference is who is doing the labeling and what their perspective is.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Well I disagree with the original premise that incompatibility and selfishness are different things. I think they are two sides of the same coin and the only real difference is who is doing the labeling and what their perspective is.


Compatible: capable of existing or living together in harmony.
Or simply put, having the same interests and viewpoints.

Selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
Pretty straight forward no? 

Different.

:smile2:


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

Sometimes when I want sex and my wife is tired, not on the mood, she will give me a standalone BJ to completion. Occasionally this will arouse her to the point where she will want PIV. 

On the other hand, I would and have done standalone oral on her with no expectation of reciprocation or my having an orgasm. It creates desire and sexual tension that can be cashed in the next encounter. My only wish is that she would ask me to give her standalone oral more than the one or two times a year she asks for nowadays.

It's not a compatibility thing or selfishness on either part, it's actually more of a communication thing.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

keeper63 said:


> Sometimes when I want sex and my wife is tired, not on the mood, she will give me a standalone BJ to completion.


That would come under the definition, and it's an excellent definition, of her being "UNselfish". 

Also, her doing that, aif she really doesn't like to, anytime, is unselfish. 

Just going by the ol' Funk & Wagnell's Dictionary here...... 

:smile2:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Capster said:


> Men are much simpler - touch penis and proceed to sex.


Not IME. If only it were so simple.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> sorry, I can't parse that uniquely.
> 
> If by "something *they* don't want to do", do you mean that person "A" wants "B" to do something "B" doesn't want to do? I think it depends - A might be selfish if they are asking B to do something that is very unpleasant of painful for B. B might be selfish if they are only willing to do things that they personally enjoy, but expect A to do other things.
> ...


I think it is just as selfish (more selfish) for a partner who wants more/different stuff than their partner does to think that that partner SHOULD provide so long as it is not nasty.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Not IME. If only it were so simple.


A rash generalization on my part, I know.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Capster said:


> Men are much simpler - touch penis and proceed to sex.





always_alone said:


> Not IME. If only it were so simple.


I doubt anyone actually knows:grin2:

I THINK I'm in the 'touch penis and proceed to sex' camp but that never actually happens so if it was happening, say 5 times a week, would I respond as I think I'd respond? Maybe not I suspect there is some amount that could get overwhelming, dunno, it'd be fun to experience for a while. 

I do now pretty much let her initiate and I never turn her down but that's not the same thing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> So when a guy is done, rolls over and leaves his wife hanging, and she wants him to continue but he no longer wants to......she's being selfish?


This does not computer for me. We would laugh. I would grab my Hitachi. Then we would both go to sleep.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Examples maybe? Things that different people might consider selfish or incompatibilities. 

A person who wants oral and who's partner is happy to do it, but doesn't want to do it in return.

A man who expects quick relief from his wife, but doesn't want to do the same for her because it takes a long time (this separate from normal mutual sex).

Someone who likes BDSM play and wants their partner to tie them up and dominate them - but the partner doesn't enjoy that sort of play.

A woman who enjoys lots of nonsexual intimacy to get in the mode, but then wants the actual sexual encounter to be over quickly.

A case where one person almost always wants sex, the other rarely - so the LD person determines when and how all of the sex occurs. 

Someone who enjoys and asks for a particular sexual position that their partner doesn't like (but isn't actively painful).



I think that there are lots of cases where people may disagree on how reasonable the requests are, and how selfish the person turning them down is. I suspect (but would be interested to know) that people will tend do judge by their own relationships - those who are the HD in a HD/LD are more likely to find miscellaneous sexual requests reasonable than those who are the LDs.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

anonmd said:


> I doubt anyone actually knows:grin2:
> 
> I do now pretty much let her initiate and I never turn her down but that's not the same thing.


You don't initiate?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Some of the discussions of sexual problems tend to blend incompatibility and selfishness.
> 
> I think that they are quite different. It is possible for a couple to both be open to pleasing each other, but what they enjoy sexually is just very different. If one wants romance, candles and gentle lovemaking and the other wants handcuffs and rough fckng there may be very little common that they can both enjoy. This may in no way be the fault of either.
> ...


Sexuality cannot be disconnected from the emotional. Maybe what one partner wants is not a sexual configuration but acceptance for who they are without pressure to "please" the snot out of a horn dog?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Capster said:


> You don't initiate?


Not none but pretty much no.

If it can't happen on a work night, hates her job, she's too tired on a Friday night and needs Saturday to recover then why bother. Oh yeah, add menopause to the mix as well. 

There is about a 3 hour window on Sunday morning where the planets may align. Sometimes I initiate, mostly she does, sometimes she actively avoids...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some would say "please a horn dog". (and "horn dog" is straying pretty close to slvt).

Others might say have a "passionate love life"

Its clear that different people view sex differently. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Sexuality cannot be disconnected from the emotional. Maybe what one partner wants is not a sexual configuration but acceptance for who they are without pressure to "please" the snot out of a horn dog?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Not none but pretty much no. If it can't happen on a work night, hates her job, she's too tired on a Friday night and needs Saturday to recover then why bother. There is about a 3 hour window on Sunday morning where the planets may align. Sometimes I initiate, mostly she does, sometimes she actively avoids...


In the short time I've perused this forum, I've come across many guys who seem to follow the same strategy. Admittedly, I've never read a book or article recommending that the man not initiate. Frankly, I think you're playing with fire.

In women, it's more of a responsive desire thing. By not initiating, how do you make her feel wanted and desired? Are you leaving yourself open to someone else showing desire and reeling her in?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Unlikely, in any case I'm not sure I care at this point.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sexuality cannot be disconnected from the emotional. *Maybe what one partner wants is not a sexual configuration but acceptance for who they are without pressure to "please" the snot out of a horn dog*?


DING! DING!! DING!!! For the WIN!!!!

There are so many threads about how a man should go about trying to "get" his partner to have more sex with him. He's advised to help around the house (as if it's HER 'job' in the first place), help with the child care (again, as if it's HER 'job'...), maybe pay her a few compliments here and there. 

Those things might work in the short term, but if the problem is deeper than that (which it usually is) it's not going to last. From experience I can tell you that if my husband complained to me about lack of sex and then started to do more around the house, I would catch on pretty quickly. In HIS mind, doing the dishes = sex, whereas, in *my* mind, HIM doing the dishes TODAY = ME doing the dishes TOMORROW. 

The _emotional _connection seems to be the first thing to go, *IF* it was ever _really_ there in the first place. I know in my own situation, once my late husband and I got married, he STOPPED _emotionally_ "putting out". He told me that he had "done his part"...he had "won" me...and now it was *MY* turn to "put out". He also told me that a guy "can't keep up that CHARADE forever"! 

After hearing that, I was completely turned off. We had been having sex almost every day and even two and three times some days. 

Several years later we were in therapy. I told the therapist my side and my late husband didn't deny it. But the ONLY complaint he had was our lack of sex. After listening to his 15 minute rant, the therapist (male) looked at me, looked at him, looked at me, looked at him again, leaned forward and told him, "You have a long way to go before you should even THINK about having sex with this woman again." My late husband simply made a face. 

I left him less than a year later.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Agree with all this.
> 
> Important to add that selfishness can be very much in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> ...


I believe that there are two perfectly sound reasons why a woman's sex drive could (and often does) fall off after giving birth.

Hormonal changes (especially when breast feeding) and psychological (now seeing herself as a mom instead of as a sexual being).

Disagree?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Some would say "please a horn dog". (and "horn dog" is straying pretty close to slvt).
> 
> Others might say have a "passionate love life"
> ...


Very differently. A passionate love life is something you have WITH someone. A horn dog is what you are AT someone. Given that I have had several decades of passionate sex life, I may know something on the subject.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> When does THAT happen???
> 
> I have yet to know a man who would sacrifice HIS orgasm just so his wife could get off, and do it _regularly_.
> 
> It seems that either the wife gives her husband a BJ or a HJ and doesn't get her orgasm OR they BOTH get an orgasm.





always_alone said:


> Agree! I've met lots of men who feel it is women's duty to give them stand-alone orgasms and quickies designed to please him, while easily accepting that his pleasure is (or should be) enough to make her happy (so bonding, don'tcha know), but I have yet to meet the man who will have sex without orgasm just to give her pleasure. (This seems to be frequently justified by men needing sex more than women.)


I have often given stand alone oral to my wife.

I would have liked it to happen more frequently than it has.

If I were single again and wanted a new relationship (I probably wouldn't), I've often thought that this would be my first move.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> I left him less than a year later.


What took so long?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I have often given stand alone oral to my wife.


Yah not my experience either. DH would happily do anything. So would I.

Why "stand alone"? Can anyone actually enjoy while standing?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Examples maybe? Things that different people might consider selfish or incompatibilities.
> 
> A person who wants oral and who's partner is happy to do it, but doesn't want to do it in return.
> ...


I find it really difficult to imagine that you do, in fact, love your wife. You have this stream of activities, positions and configurations. That when you don't get, you are being "turned down". The only viable excuse for you is pain. Do you have any idea of what makes her feel safe and open?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know what bugs me about these threads? The common notion that something is broken about the wife. She must be selfish, deficient, naive or sexually dysfunctional.


There are plenty of threads where it's the woman who is the HD in a sexless marriage and everybody talks about how the husband is broken.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> There are plenty of threads where it's the woman who is the HD in a sexless marriage and everybody talks about how the husband is broken.


What is interesting is that while I don't doubt you, the number seems way lower. Or I am oblivious. (It can happen!) In any event, that is clearly wrong, ineffective and useless.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

They pop up periodically so there are 'plenty', but the numbers are lower.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> They pop up periodically so there are 'plenty', but the numbers are lower.


I don't have any experience as a seemingly (for ME since I was not really LD just looked like it) LD man in a marriage, so I don't have much advice to offer.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> So when a guy is done, rolls over and leaves his wife hanging, and she wants him to continue but he no longer wants to......she's being selfish?


Well done!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> What took so long?


Lack of finances on my part.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
What I listed are not the things I personally want - and I left a number gender neutral. These are the sorts of issues that I see here frequently. I left those specifically as borderline cases.

You have an image in your mind of what I am like, but you are quite wrong - though I can see how you might see my posts that way.
\
Just so you understand - and can see where I'm coming from:

I do a fair share of housework, cleaning, bills, chores etc. We both work full time jobs and neither of us has ever complained that the other doesn't do their part. I've never cheated, never been out of work (nor has she), never yelled at her, never been drunk. I'm no Adonis but I am tolerable looking. 

Casual romance and intimacy go on all the time. I give her a kiss, run my fingers through her hair, cuddle on the sofa whenever there is time. She gets flowers, dinner dates, little jewelry trinkets and moonlit walks on tropical beaches (at least when we are in the tropics :smile2:, otherwise they are walks in our neighborhood). 



Whenever we have sex, I start out by asking if there is anything special she would like - and if she suggests anything I do it. I take lots of time starting with gentle touches, and eventually more intimate things including oral - she is usually at that point the one to request that we move on to sex. She enjoys sex when we have it and almost always has an O (and almost never wants a second). 

The problem is that she wants sex rarely. If I don't push at all, it drops to every few months or less. If I ask gently, she apologizes but says no. If I tell her how much I miss it and get upset / angry, she gets upset - then surprisingly our sex life becomes frequent (every other day) for a little while, then gradually declines - twice a week, once a week, twice a month, every month, every 2 months. 

She is somewhat limited in what she enjoys in bed, and worse is very bad at telling me what she does or doesn't like. She won't do oral. She used to for my birthday (only), but after many years told me that she hates it, its disgusting (something she had never said before) - so I've never asked again.

She only finds one position comfortable for PIV so that is what we do - and its not a great one for me (though I'm happy to do it because she likes it). This isn't her fault, she does often find PIV uncomfortable - but part of that is that it is quite rare. During times when it was common she found it much more comfortable.

Other requests are a bit of a minefield. The problem is not that she turns things down (which is fine) but that he sort of implies that there is something wrong with me for wanting them). I have a very wide range of things that I enjoy in bed - but I have to be careful about asking. She rarely requests anything and says that I always know what she wants.


All that said, things have been pretty good recently - much more variety and we have been steady at 1/week every sunday 3-5pm. I'm concerned though that this is down from 2/week a few months ago and 1/2 days a few months before that. Every time the decline is so....very.....slow - as if I won't notice. Its clearly planned - if something prevents Sunday, then we have sex saturday or monday, but never otherwise. 

Its not bad - and I over complain here (but not to her). Its the frustration of being with someone who I love, and who gives every indication of enjoying sex, but it being so infrequent. During the times when we are having sex frequently, she gives every indication of being very happy - enthusiastically passionate. Is she just pretending for me? That would be sad. When asked she says that she really enjoys sex, talks about it often, wears sexy lingerie every evening, and enjoys the attention she gets - but other than sundays, there is always a reason not to at the last minute. 

She has recently learned to tell me "I didn't sleep well last night" every day as a code that she doesn't want sex tonight and I shouldn't ask - so I don't. (she does have sleep problems but they don't get in the way of anything else that she wants to do).


What makes her feel safe and open?As far as I can tell everything she does with me besides sex. She loves cuddling in bed - and I enjoy it as well - if I haven't been denied sex for too long. We spend a lot of time sitting together and it makes us both very happy. Its just for me sex is a natural extension of other physical intimacy. 


Sorry do derail the discussion, but I've noticed in NobodySpecial's posts that she seems to have formed a rather incorrect image of what I am like -and by extension what many HD people are like. 






NobodySpecial said:


> I find it really difficult to imagine that you do, in fact, love your wife. You have this stream of activities, positions and configurations. That when you don't get, you are being "turned down". The only viable excuse for you is pain. Do you have any idea of what makes her feel safe and open?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Richard, no offense, but it is quite clear that you come here to vent and not to learn anything. Cheers.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

I've actually learned quite a lot here. This is the first place I found out that LD/HD issues are common in marriages. First place I found that my situation was not uncommon. First place I found that there was much more gender equality in HD/LD than I had expected.

Learning doesn't mean that I agree with all of the advice form everyone since it is contradictory. I've listened to and rejected as unlikely to succeed in MY situation advice that I be more Alpha, more manly, more sexually aggressive with my wife etc. I've listened to but rejected as not informed advice that there is something I should do or stop doing in general - though I listen intently to any specific suggestions of what I should do.

Your advice tends to be that I'm not listening to anyone - but I haven't seen specifics from you. People post LOTS of things, most of it not appropriate for any specific situation. If you want me to listen to you you need to be specific, not just complain that I'm not taking advice - when I can't tell which advice you recommend. 

I do come here to vent - here where it is harmless, rather than take out my frustrations by complaining to my wife, or worse complaining to friends in the real world. 

In addition to venting, I post here to let other people in my situation know that it is not uncommon. Too many people in HD/LD situations are told that it is their fault - that they need to do more, that they are somehow inadequate and that otherwise their partners would be all over them. This bad advice is given to men and women, and I post against it wherever I see it. 







NobodySpecial said:


> Richard, no offense, but it is quite clear that you come here to vent and not to learn anything. Cheers.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I guess I find this sad. You want to encourage other people to likewise be ineffective (since it is not "uncommon) while pressuring your wife into uncomfortable duty sex while calling her "bad at" talking, more than once insinuating that she is selfish for not performing to your list of configurations.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

@richardsharpe, 

Sorry you felt you had to explain yourself. It's really tough to be open in a forum with all kinds of guessing and personal experiences getting in the way. It's tough to get your point across and not have at least someone mistakenly think poorly of you. Don't worry about all of that. Your posts all over this site don't show you are an ogre or a pervert.

I'm going to try not to let my issues get in the way of my impressions. 

Anyway, you wrote:



> The problem is not that she turns things down (which is fine) but that he *sort of implies that there is something wrong with me* for wanting them). I have a very wide range of things that I enjoy in bed - but I have to be careful about asking. She rarely requests anything and *says that I always know what she wants.*


I doubt there is anything wrong with you, but maybe you two are not compatible in some ways? 

You always know what she wants means she doesn't want anything from you, so what you do is fine. And, of course she O's. She is a sexual being and can feel what you do. It's like some woman who is unattractive to you giving you a bj. You close your eyes and just feel. Hypothetically, I mean, of course. 



> *She only finds one position comfortable *for PIV so that is what we do - and its not a great one for me (though I'm happy to do it because she likes it). This isn't her fault, she does often find PIV uncomfortable - but part of that is that it is quite rare.* During times when it was common she found it much more comfortable*.


Does she really hurt? If so, you'd think a doctor could diagnose an illness or affliction of some sort and if they can't heal her, at least let you know what is going on. Have you tried to get her to see someone and discuss it with them? 

So, maybe when she was very horny, she would be fine with it? 



> When asked she says that she really enjoys sex, talks about it often, wears sexy lingerie every evening, and enjoys the attention she gets


Yeah she, in general, really enjoys sex, but not with you? Talks about it often and wears lingerie every evening to drive you insane or for what purpose? 

She's lying. Could be you aren't giving her something she wanted or needs to feel like a sexy giving woman. I tend to see her as a person who will do for you if you do for her. A score keeper to you. She might not be a scorekeeper to someone she is highly attracted to. 

Well, of course she enjoys the attention she gets. She's playing you like a fiddle. 

What's keeping you in this sham of a marriage? Sounds like she knows she will be financially well off if you do divorce her and that's the leverage she has. She's happy with it too. 

My opinion is, she is very abusive, mentally, emotionally and verbally. She needs help from a counselor and you need to find a way out and happiness instead of frustration and false hope. She's gaslighting the hell out of you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
And your specific suggestion for what I should do? I honestly don't know which posts by which posters you think I should listen to. You previously mentioned 2 very prolific posters who have had all sorts of (often very reasonable) suggestions for all sorts of situations. Its not easy to go through thousands of posts to find ones that apply to my situation.



NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I find this sad. You want to encourage other people to likewise be ineffective (since it is not "uncommon) while pressuring your wife into uncomfortable duty sex while calling her "bad at" talking, more than once insinuating that she is selfish for not performing to your list of configurations.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
It so difficult to get a clear picture across. 

We are not sexually compatible, but are in almost every other way. I mean how many women would I find who think going to the ruins of the last holdout of the Minoans is cool, or who enjoy an all day train ride in western China, or flying a small plane over the mountains, or think cuddling on the sofa while watching "how its made" is fun. We really do get along very well on everything else. 

PIV is often uncomfortable for her. Its sort of strange - once we start doing sexual things she gets in a hurry and wants PIV before she is really ready and we are not very size compatible. Also it seems that if she doesn't do it frequently, it is less comfortable. I in no way insist on it - but once she is aroused she really wants it - but is sore later. Only a few positions work.

She doesn't see lingerie as driving me insane. Her view of sex is very strange - I describe it (not to her) as a "PG13 romance". She enjoys everything leading up to sex, but right when sex would start there is a scene cut. 

Is she attracted to anyone else? Not that I've noticed, and I do seem like her type (as far as it exists). Of course she could hide it. (we are both highly technical and I'm not really up for a game of spy vs spy)

Is she using me? Maybe. She doesn't need me - she is independently wealthy. Still maybe she wants me because I do so much for her, and maybe for social status / friends? 

Is she "naturally" selfish, only child etc. Is she so used to being selfish that she doesn't recognize it anymore? I do have a male friend who is like that and who's wife is divorcing him soon.

If I'm being used - why doesn't she use me for sex? Someone else? Possible of course, but no evidence. 

So, I'm aware that I may be being used - or I may not. I'm guessing not. I enjoy my time with her, so despite sex not being great, there is not enough reason for me to leave. Unlike many, I can live with uncertainty. If I find out that she has had a many year affair, I'll laugh at my own stupidity / blindness, and just get on with life. 

I think though that she is low libido, and has responsive desire, along with moderate levels of selfishness and an upbringing that sex is bad. If she doesn't feel like sex at the moment she doesn't want it and sees no reason to do it for me since sex is "bad". 

Overall my life is actually very good. The sex issue is just frustrating because it seems like it shouldn't be a problem. 






2ntnuf said:


> @richardsharpe,
> 
> Sorry you felt you had to explain yourself. It's really tough to be open in a forum with all kinds of guessing and personal experiences getting in the way. It's tough to get your point across and not have at least someone mistakenly think poorly of you. Don't worry about all of that. Your posts all over this site don't show you are an ogre or a pervert.
> 
> ...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Never said or even implied she was having an affair, just that she wasn't attracted to you. She can't do anything to help her with that compatibility? 

I see what you mean about being compatible in other ways. It's likely status and her being an only child that are causing some issues. It's likely she can't let you go or she would be less of a woman in the eyes of too many who mean so much to her. 

I suppose it is hopeless when you live in a country where a woman's honor and respect is dependent upon whom she marries? Sad world you live in. I'm sorry for you both. 

No wonder you have such a difficult time. 

This seems to go back to what I implied in some ways. She would rather someone else in some sense, but is well trained to show whomever her husband is that she respects him and is happy to be with him. I think leaving her would likely kill her. So sorry for you both.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
She claims that she finds me attractive. Same as she claims that she enjoys sex..... just not now :frown2:

(I shouldn't have even mentioned the "status" issue - it was a really minor issue that on re-reading I see looks much bigger than I meant it to be) I'm in the US, and she could divorce me with no significant social problems. Its just that within our friends I'm very socially visible, she is very quiet. She is a very capable, admirable woman with a professional career - just socially pretty quiet. We've been in the same close circle of friends for decades and if we divorced she would be uncomfortable there.

I really absolutely don't want to divorce her - I really do love her and enjoy our time together and think she loves me. I guess the issue is that life is wonderful - with this one really annoying exception that seems so inexplicable. 


And yes, I know that means that things won't change, so I really should just stop complaining here.




2ntnuf said:


> Never said or even implied she was having an affair, just that she wasn't attracted to you. She can't do anything to help her with that compatibility?
> 
> I see what you mean about being compatible in other ways. It's likely status and her being an only child that are causing some issues. It's likely she can't let you go or she would be less of a woman in the eyes of too many who mean so much to her.
> 
> ...


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

In the short time I've been around this board, my advice on the advice here, is like reading & accepting reviews on Amazon products.

Posters here don't know you, they don't know your wife. Don't know what you do, where you live....anything. 
Many, after reading a brief description of the situation or two, are ready for you to run away, divorce, sue, or drag your wife by the hair into the bedroom and boink her brains out whether she likes it or not. 
Really? Experts? 

Just like Amazon reviews, rake all the crazies off the top, and the ones on the bottom, and take the rest with a grain of salt. 
Those suggestions, which may be something you can try, without starting an all out war or something worse....maybe give them a thought or three & a try.
Those which have determined that your wife hates you, and on & on.....scratch. 

Just my 2 cents. 
:surprise:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> She claims that she finds me attractive. Same as she claims that she enjoys sex..... just not now :frown2:
> 
> (I shouldn't have even mentioned the "status" issue - it was a really minor issue that on re-reading I see looks much bigger than I meant it to be) I'm in the US, and she could divorce me with no significant social problems. Its just that within our friends I'm very socially visible, she is very quiet. She is a very capable, admirable woman with a professional career - just socially pretty quiet. We've been in the same close circle of friends for decades and if we divorced she would be uncomfortable there.
> ...


Complain all you want. 


I honestly believe what I posted initially, now that it's clear you live in a free country. 

I suppose you must then have great wealth and powerful connections. That would be a reason she won't leave and you don't want a divorce. 

Divorce or dishonor would create a stir in the community which could not be lived down. Many of those friends would take sides and someone would be ostracized. 

Is that a bit closer to the truth? 

If that is true, why don't you two find someone who is sexually compatible and discrete? Compromise on the conditions of an open marriage. I'm sure that happens all the time though it's just not discussed between spouses.

Be a freak and discuss it, maybe? You might be surprised. You would both still have all else that you can't give up. The love you have now would still be there. It's ideal for you two. Did you have a thread on that? I thought you did. If so, what happened with that?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

@richardsharpe,

Sorry for being so blunt. I'm not trying to be facetious with that post. I really mean it. I think, when you are in a no win situation and really do have a sham marriage with love, you may want to consider that you love them so much, that hurting them with sex is not satisfying at all. It hurts you more than them. And, I'm sure it hurts her deeply...much more than just physical pain, if she loves you as much as you are trying to infer. 

I think in normal marriage, it's not so tough to divorce. Yes, it's very hard, but when you find that you or she would be totally wrecked by it, and you can't find it within yourself to love her enough to take the blame, it's probably the best option left. It's very sad that I believe that. I'm going to try to think about this more. 

I think I must believe you love yourself more than her, or you'd find a way to let her go while keeping her honor and place in your society. It's not really all that different from anyone else's world, in my opinion. It's just that it seems like there is much more to lose. I guess you don't want to let someone else have her, as any other man.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Your wife performing oral on you all that time and only now telling you that it's disgusting is reprehensible. Either don't do it in the first place or keep your mouth shut. 

Try telling her that you've always hated doing something for her that she enjoyed. 

Your wife could be:

1) Selfish and naive. She really doesn't fully understand how much this means to you because she really doesn't spend much time thinking about what's important to you. 

2) Selfish, not naïve. She does understand how much this means to you and really doesn't give a sh!t. Your happiness isn't the least bit important to you. However, she finds being married to you convenient, so she does the bare minimum to keep you around.

3) She likes sex well enough, she just doesn't think about it much. It's disconcerting that she can't give some priority to something so important to your happiness.

4) She may subconsciously be sexually turned on by things that horrify her rational mind. She thinks she should be attracted to someone like you; someone who acts like you, but she isn't. She doesn't want to face the kind of man she would be attracted to. She avoids sex to avoid thinking about this.

5) She's not selfish and does care about your happiness. She's just been taught that sex is completely different than anything else and that she should never feel the need to do it unless she has spontaneous desire. That's the way it is and you're being unreasonable for not putting up with it.

All of these possibilities are disturbing.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's weird because he can't tell the truth.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I agree with that. My point is - the HD is already very unhappy with their sex life - for years before they have kids. 

But is afraid to do much about it for fear of cratering the relationship.





Buddy400 said:


> I believe that there are two perfectly sound reasons why a woman's sex drive could (and often does) fall off after giving birth.
> 
> Hormonal changes (especially when breast feeding) and psychological (now seeing herself as a mom instead of as a sexual being).
> 
> Disagree?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

2ntnuf,

Both Richard and his wife would be financially fine in the event of a divorce. 

But emotionally - she would be hurt FAR worse than he would. And Richard, is through and through a: 'serve and protect' type guy.

He won't do that to her. 

I believe the outsourcing conversation - would have the desired impact on her willingness to see how selfish she's being. But it won't change her drive. 

It's not an easy conversation. While I'm a proponent of this approach, I have only employed it maybe 3 times in 25 plus years. 

Once - early in the marriage, when I should have taken a softer approach. 
Once when it was a gray situation middle of the marriage. 
And once when it was by far the best move I could have made. 

The key to that type conversation is the following theme. 

Wife, You either believe sex is important or you don't. Your actions say that you don't. If that is the case, than the outsourcing option ought not cause you major distress. 

If that isn't the case, why are you being so selfish. 

The first type conversation should be about priorities, as opposed to a direct threat to outsource. 

And it ought to include a - delayed response pass which looks like this: I don't expect you to respond right now. Consider it for a few days and then let me know what you think. That said, I absolutely expect a response. 

Because the sense I get is that many LD folks, say as little as humanly possible in discussions about sex. And that is part of the reason those marriages get so one sided. 

FWIW: Richards wife sounds eerily similar to M2. She's got some control issues. She will find the idea of outsourcing - appalling beyond measure. That said, she's kind of spoiled. Because she sees the vow to forsake as a responsibility free leg of the marriage. 





2ntnuf said:


> Complain all you want.
> 
> 
> I honestly believe what I posted initially, now that it's clear you live in a free country.
> ...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Wife, You either believe sex is important or you don't. Your actions say that you don't. If that is the case, than the outsourcing option ought not cause you major distress.
> 
> If that isn't the case, why are you being so selfish.


There are too many easy, but false, dichotomies on this thread. You can believe sex is important AND still not want it very often.

Particularly if you find it painful to do.

It seems the inclination is to accuse (always) the other for selfishness, what ultimately is incompatibility.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> I guess the issue is that life is wonderful - with this one really annoying exception that seems so inexplicable.


Richard, you seem a good guy, so let me say this as gently as I can: there is nothing inexplicable here. You have explained and explained it, upside down and sideways. The problem isn't that you don't understand her, it's that you want her to be different. And she isn't.

Can you find that secret key to making her different? Maybe. But it may not even exist.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

always_alone said:


> There are too many easy, but false, dichotomies on this thread. You can believe sex is important AND still not want it very often.
> 
> Particularly if you find it painful to do.
> 
> It seems the inclination is to accuse (always) the other for selfishness, what ultimately is incompatibility.


I'm just going to toss this out there, but...

...isn't it possible that the HD person is the _REAL_ "selfish" one?

Sometimes I wonder (because of my own experience with my late husband) if the HD is being a bit greedy...or insecure. 

*waits for rotten tomatoes to be thrown at me for even suggesting such a possibility*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,
That's an odd thing to say to me. I am resolutely opposed to sex that is painful to your partner. 

And I absolutely get that - there's physical pain and pain of the spirit. 

I just believe it is - toxic - when a sexual relationship becomes entirely dictated by one person. 

And I believe that tying a discussion about sexual dissatisfaction to divorce - may create the impression you don't love the other person. 

My outsourcing conversations weren't: I don't love you - and I want out. 

They were more: I DO love you, I'm just not ok with this piece of the puzzle so.....

In a way - it reverses the polarity of the conversation entirely. It isn't about how much I love you. It is instead a question of how much you love me. 

You can't love me - nearly so much as you love yourself - if you try to shut down outsourcing while failing to meet my minimum needs - whatever those are. 

And to be fair - and fully transparent about this - I get that M2 sees outsourcing as the basis for justifiable homicide. She has serious control issues and sees this as a huge loss of control. 

It strikes me as odd - when folks tell me that the vow to forsake all others is absolute and unconditional. Reason is that - the prime vow - ain't about forsaking. It's about loving. And there is nothing loving about jerking someone around sexually. 





always_alone said:


> There are too many easy, but false, dichotomies on this thread. You can believe sex is important AND still not want it very often.
> 
> Particularly if you find it painful to do.
> 
> It seems the inclination is to accuse (always) the other for selfishness, what ultimately is incompatibility.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> That's an odd thing to say to me. I am resolutely opposed to sex that is painful to your partner.
> 
> And I absolutely get that - there's physical pain and pain of the spirit.
> ...



I know, MEM. I said what I said because despite all this, the issue is *still* being framed here as one person "jerking the other around sexually", as selfishness, as being hypocritical for seeing sex as not important, yet holding someone hostage. And so on.

And I don't see that as fair. There is nothing contradictory about viewing sex as important, but not wanting it often. There is also nothing inherently stupid or evil or selfish or unfair, or nasty about not wanting sex often. It just is.

So by all means, have your conversations about outsourcing, find that piece on the side if you need to, meet those minimum needs.

But let's not pretend that doing this is somehow more justified or less selfish than the other side. Or somehow not one person dictating how the sexually relationship should go.

I mean, even consider the notion of "minimum needs". Now suppose my minimum need is twice daily, including extended oral. My prerogative? Absolutely! I get to define my needs, and I get to increase them exponentially if I want to.

I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it probably does because I know you love your wife, and for the most part you acknowledge and validate her perspective and I have even seen you make a similar point to the one I'm making here.

Which is basically that it isn't fair to call someone names or accuse them of nefarious motives because they have a different perspective than you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Please don't take the "social status" too seriously. My wife and I both have professional jobs, she also has some inheritance money. We have a comfortable amount of money, but not seriously wealthy. I'm well known in my field, but its a small field. 

Sex outside marriage has been indirectly discussed and discarded - we have friends who are poly so the topic comes up in general. We've never talked about it for *us* but my wife has made it clear that she doesn't like the idea and I really don't either. No moral objections, but I've seen it ruin marriages and don't want to go there. 




2ntnuf said:


> Complain all you want.
> 
> 
> I honestly believe what I posted initially, now that it's clear you live in a free country.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think 5 is the most likely. A lot of young women are taught "never do anything you don't want to do" and that is usually very good advice. It can fail though it taken too far, or if "don't want to do" is interpreted in a very broad way.



Buddy400 said:


> Your wife performing oral on you all that time and only now telling you that it's disgusting is reprehensible. Either don't do it in the first place or keep your mouth shut.
> 
> Try telling her that you've always hated doing something for her that she enjoyed.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
true. I'm just not good at dropping mysteries, and its still mysterious to me. (I know what is happening but don't understand what is in her head).

Interestingly, very recently things have gotten a lot better. Actually had sex twice last week and with much more variety than usual. As always I'm tempted to believe that this is a real change, not just a fluke. 

bored readers can just ignore my posts - probably the best idea. 







always_alone said:


> Richard, you seem a good guy, so let me say this as gently as I can: there is nothing inexplicable here. You have explained and explained it, upside down and sideways. The problem isn't that you don't understand her, it's that you want her to be different. And she isn't.
> 
> Can you find that secret key to making her different? Maybe. But it may not even exist.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
In some case the HD may be the selfish one, expecting things that are not reasonable. Its not clear where to draw the line. 

Insecurity - also likely true. Being repeatedly turned down is really bad for ones self esteem. 




Vega said:


> I'm just going to toss this out there, but...
> 
> ...isn't it possible that the HD person is the _REAL_ "selfish" one?
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
This I think was my original question in this thread. What is and isn't reasonable. If someone wants sex twice daily are they unreasonable? is their partner selfish for turning them down? Does it change if its once a month and they are still turned down?

I think it depends on things you can't measure from the outside. If someone wants sex and their partner wouldn't mind but prefers to watch TV, that seems different from their partner being mentally or physically uncomfortable. 






always_alone said:


> snip
> I mean, even consider the notion of "minimum needs". Now suppose my minimum need is twice daily, including extended oral. My prerogative? Absolutely! I get to define my needs, and I get to increase them exponentially if I want to.
> snip
> .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,
My primary 'jerk around' theme is the gas lighting / willful incomprehension. 

In general that's the thing I focus on. If that's not happening, everything else is usually workable. 






always_alone said:


> I know, MEM. I said what I said because despite all this, the issue is *still* being framed here as one person "jerking the other around sexually", as selfishness, as being hypocritical for seeing sex as not important, yet holding someone hostage. And so on.
> 
> And I don't see that as fair. There is nothing contradictory about viewing sex as important, but not wanting it often. There is also nothing inherently stupid or evil or selfish or unfair, or nasty about not wanting sex often. It just is.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Difficult to define reasonable - frequency - from the outside. 

What I would say to M2 - were I in your shoes. 


Don't pretend you can't tell how much distress you are causing me in this part of the marriage. And just in general - stop playing dumb where sex is concerned - it's insulting. I don't play dumb when you talk about stuff matters to you. 

----------
All that said - I'm going to warn you - don't ask for the truth - and then be judgemental about it. 

Half the initiation that comes my way is - kindness sans passion. 

And the only decent responses to that are either
- oh umm ok sure (getting overtly excited about a largely one sided experience is poor form) 
Or
- your an angel, how about maybe tomorrow? (which more literally means how about the next time you might actually be feeling it)






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> This I think was my original question in this thread. What is and isn't reasonable. If someone wants sex twice daily are they unreasonable? is their partner selfish for turning them down? Does it change if its once a month and they are still turned down?
> 
> I think it depends on things you can't measure from the outside. If someone wants sex and their partner wouldn't mind but prefers to watch TV, that seems different from their partner being mentally or physically uncomfortable.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> In some case the HD may be the selfish one, expecting things that are not reasonable. Its not clear where to draw the line.
> 
> Insecurity - also likely true. Being repeatedly turned down is really bad for ones self esteem.


I was the HD in my first marriage. Of course, I was much younger. After she got pregnant, she became HD. I wasn't so much after the 5th month or maybe 6th. I know. I'm a dirty rotten scoundrel and so forth and so on. Whatever....we all have our likes and dislikes. It was creepy for me.

So, anyway, either because of that, which is odd since her body went back to what it was before, pretty much, she became disinterested in sex. Some of it was, I believe the added responsibility. Being tired. Worrying about a newborn and so on. I can't blame her and didn't. I just worked whatever mojo I had and she came around, eventually. It was tough for a while. She rejected me, but I understood that she may have been feeling ugly, unattractive and many other things from the pregnancy and my rejection of her. By the way, I told her that might happen. Mean or intelligent and honest? Not sure, but I didn't want to lie to her. I respected her that much anyway.

We were both attracted to each other. I was very attracted to her and yes, still am or at least was when I saw her last in 2009. Sucks when you are not right for each other, but it's best to be divorced. That's likely the reason we got through that period of sexless marriage. It's also likely that my telling her how sexy she was, how much I wanted her and believe it or not, what I wanted to do to her(nothing crazy or disgusting, just things that should turn on a woman with sexual needs of her own) and how she turned me on, helped.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> This I think was my original question in this thread. What is and isn't reasonable. If someone wants sex twice daily are they unreasonable? is their partner selfish for turning them down? Does it change if its once a month and they are still turned down?
> 
> I think it depends on things you can't measure from the outside. If someone wants sex and their partner wouldn't mind but prefers to watch TV, that seems different from their partner being mentally or physically uncomfortable.


What is reasonable for you is not reasonable for her. Don't play that game. Quit that. It does no good except to keep score and build resentment. 

No, she's not selfish for turning you down. Ask her. 

Do you think she is? Sure.

See? No good keeping score, man. You shoot yourself in the foot when you do that. Doesn't that hurt? 

"Ouch. It hurts when I do that."

"Don't do it." 

"Oh, never thought of that."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> What is reasonable for you is not reasonable for her. Don't play that game. Quit that. It does no good except to keep score and build resentment.
> 
> No, she's not selfish for turning you down. Ask her.
> 
> ...


This is easy in theory. 

Sprinkle in some resentment and putting the scorecard away becomes incredibly difficult.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> This is easy in theory.
> 
> Sprinkle in some resentment and putting the scorecard away becomes incredibly difficult.


Here's how it worked in real life for me, all those years ago. She'd say no. I'd say okay, but you know I want you and I won't put up with this. Then, I'd walk away. 

I would not discuss it further. Period. 

I would then, in the next day or so, tell her how sexy she was. I'd tell her what I wanted to do with her. "oh, that's gross". I'd tell her how hot she was, not beautiful. I'd tell her how her lips looked to me.

Then, I'd drop it. I turned it around on her and got her thinking about it. 

Yeah, sometimes I had to take care of things myself. I made no bones about it. It was what it was. Do me, then and it won't bother you. Hey, whatever, it's up to you.

Hey, I'd rather have you, but you don't want to. Oh well, I'm not going to suffer, I'll tell you that. 

Still, kept telling her how much I wanted her. How much I needed her. Some of what I would do. Not disgusting, just enough to get her thinking. 

She came around. She saw other women talking to me. I didn't do anything wrong. I was just friendly and open. Still, I told my first wife I loved her and I wanted her. Kissed and hugged or at least attempted. Touched her and rubbed her back. 

Did not say anything when I was touching her and rubbing her back, about sex. I didn't want to ruin it. When there was nothing intimate like touching going on, I would say something, and not all the time, but enough to keep it fresh without being overbearing. 

I did not say the same thing time after time, but mixed it up a bit. Always letting her know I wanted her because she turned me on. Who she was and how she looked turned me on. She was on my mind all day, off and on. 

Different things, but not badgering. Not constant reminders.

ETA: Yeah, she complained. I ignored it. I guess cause I was horny and didn't hear it. It went in one ear and out the other. I just stared at her with those eyes. You know the ones where she knows you are thinking about her with no clothes on. Cause I was. Then, I'd say, whatever....

I'd try to laugh with her. Tease her and get her a little frustrated with me and touching me. Not make her steaming mad at me. If she said something like, "you bastard", I'd tell her that dirty talk only made me hornier and smile. She got the message, or she was incapable.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Want to know the problem with that? 

If she isn't attracted to you naturally, she is only having sex with you out of a competitive nature and not because she really does want you, too. 

If that's the case, you're screwed, no matter what you do. You'll have to do it again and again and again. That's no fun and it's time to get out of the marriage. And, she isn't stupid. She'll catch on.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> true. I'm just not good at dropping mysteries, and its still mysterious to me. (I know what is happening but don't understand what is in her head).
> 
> Interestingly, very recently things have gotten a lot better. Actually had sex twice last week and with much more variety than usual. As always I'm tempted to believe that this is a real change, not just a fluke.
> ...


Boredom was not at all what I was getting at.....

What makes you think it is real change? And, assuming you are right that it is, what will you do with it?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> This I think was my original question in this thread. What is and isn't reasonable. If someone wants sex twice daily are they unreasonable? is their partner selfish for turning them down? Does it change if its once a month and they are still turned down?
> 
> I think it depends on things you can't measure from the outside. If someone wants sex and their partner wouldn't mind but prefers to watch TV, that seems different from their partner being mentally or physically uncomfortable.


I don't think it is unreasonable to want sex 2x a day. Or more. Or less. People want what they want.

Where it starts to get unreasonable is when you decide that the world should conform to your wishes: 

I want to be rich, and so everyone should send me 1$. That's not too much to ask is it? I mean, it's only a dollar. Most people wouldn't even notice it's gone. I'll even demonstrate my largesse and exclude those who count that as a day's wages, and I'd still get a billion.

I'll admit, though, that sometimes I read these threads and I think, gosh it would be nice to be told that I'm beautiful, or desirable, or to get massages, or whatever. It's so easy to see what other's have and think it should be your own.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Your wife performing oral on you all that time and only now telling you that it's disgusting is reprehensible. Either don't do it in the first place or keep your mouth shut.
> 
> Try telling her that you've always hated doing something for her that she enjoyed.
> 
> ...


Well, I asked in my post if my wife was selfish or sexually naive-so figured since Buddy posted this, I would answer. 

My wife does fit into #1 because despite our conversations, I truly don't think she understands how I feel-because she just simply can't relate to it. Also #3 also really fits her as well-she does seem to like sex when she allows her mind to go there-but as she has said it it is just not a priority for her. Other things in her life are more important. Also #5 is in play because she was brought up thinking sex was only for marriage, she does attach words like "dirty and gross" to things like masturbation and oral sex. 

I believe my mistake and probably a lot of guys mistake in marriage is that we spend a lot of time before marriage talking about the future-where we want to live, if we want kids and if so, how many, where we want to work, our families and a lot of other every day life situations. BUT, we don't spend time talking about our sexual expectations-or just thoughts on sex period. You ASSume that will all work out, I know I did. We didn't live together before marriage but each time we were around each other-usually weekends or arranged week nights where we could, we were all over each other, very hot and steamy. I ASSumed once married we would be like that even more-we never were, even newly married. Granted, we were probably 2-4x a week then-which I was happy with and would be more than enough now. BUT, the signs were there, she got very embarrassed talking about sex, she didn't want to go into any detail about sex or sexual terms. She wanted to change the subject as quickly as I brought it up. That should have been a sign but I was young and in love. I think couples need to throw sexual expectations on the table before marriage, I think you need to be able to talk about masturbation, about oral, about anal if that is your thing-never has been mine. I just think you can learn a lot about a person by how they talk and what they will say. If your partner is very uncomfortable even talking about sex, chances are they don't really like sex that much for whatever reason.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want sex 2x a day. Or more. Or less. People want what they want.
> 
> Where it starts to get unreasonable is when you decide that the world should conform to your wishes:
> 
> ...


Me too...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> I think couples need to throw sexual expectations on the table before marriage,


I don't think this will work. To SOME degree perhaps, but you can't count on it. 

If a woman has never had children before, she'll have NO IDEA how she's going to feel both physically and emotionally once she has them. It's not something that one can predict with any consistent accuracy. 

Same goes for men. If a man loses his job, he may sink into depression. His libido may suffer and if his spouse DOES manage to get him into see a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist may put him on some meds that could kill his libido even further...or even REV IT UP a few notches and his spouse can't keep up.

The point is, that you can both agree that sex is important to both of you TODAY and things can take a drastic turn TOMORROW. 

IMO, the _main_ focus of marriage should be the _relationship_; not sex. There are just too many factors to influence the sexual aspect. 

If I supposedly married my "best friend" then he should remain as my best friend whether we are having sex twice a day or twice a year. 

Maybe we should stop _expecting_ a certain amount of sex, and simply be _grateful _when it happens.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want sex 2x a day. Or more. Or less. People want what they want.
> 
> Where it starts to get unreasonable is when you decide that the world should conform to your wishes:
> 
> ...


It's funny that you posted this AA. This morning I was thinking about how this thread would go if we were talking about money instead of sex! 

In fact, I still may post about it...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
No reason at all, I'm just eternally hopeful. When our sex life becomes more frequent she also becomes happier and more affectionate in general. 

If it is a real change, I'll be very happy. 



always_alone said:


> Boredom was not at all what I was getting at.....
> 
> What makes you think it is real change? And, assuming you are right that it is, what will you do with it?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
While I like the post, there is one big difference between money and sex: If I give you money, you have more, but I have less. If we have sex, it should be something we both enjoy and we both gain. 

Of course if someone doesn't want sex, then there is a loss and gain, but unlike money there is no way to measure the balance. "not wanting" sex can range from it not being a top preference at the moment (would rather watch TV), to it being a horrible experience. 

Maybe the difficulty in measuring is one of the things that makes sex tricky. Chores can sort of be judged by time / effort. Money is easy. Sex - for the same person at different times it can be anywhere from very positive to very negative. There is not way to compare the gain and loss. 





always_alone said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want sex 2x a day. Or more. Or less. People want what they want.
> 
> Where it starts to get unreasonable is when you decide that the world should conform to your wishes:
> 
> ...


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Vega-

I do agree this-

IMO, the main focus of marriage should be the relationship; not sex. There are just too many factors to influence the sexual aspect. 

If I supposedly married my "best friend" then he should remain as my best friend whether we are having sex twice a day or twice a year. 

Maybe we should stop expecting a certain amount of sex, and simply be grateful when it happens.

That is what my marriage is based on-same with many other guys that come here to complain or vent I would imagine. But then we are called certain names because we want to remain in our marriages- as we say because other than this one aspect, all is good-folks tend to not believe that is possible I guess. Sure, lack of sex is not ideal for the partner that wants it more but the marriage vows are for better or worse, richer or poorer, better or worse and I think you have to take those seriously or not get married. It is so easy to divorce these days for whatever problem you might have. That is why I am trying to stay away from this board and just view every few days because I do think sometimes it can do more harm than good-you read about couples having sex so often, women that want sex more than their husbands, you end up feeling worse because you say, WHY NOT ME. It brings out your selfish nature I think. 

Back to what I said about talking sex before marriage-you are 100% correct, your drive IS going to change due to circumstances that will happen during the marriage-as you mentioned, giving birth, losing a job, losing a parent or sibling as you get older, your children leaving the nest, etc etc. There is no predictor of how these changes will impact your sex life. My thought on it is this though-if your spouse has trouble discussing sex or seems to push that subject away or off the table, I do think that is a true indicator of being potentially being low drive. If you bring up something, like oral sex they don't want to talk about it, or if you try to give oral sex and you are pushed away, that is a sign. I guess my point is, typically there are signs early on that indicate a true behavior that many times a couple in love will overlook. I think a healthy sex discussion is something a couple should talk about before marriage. Granted, with my wife-she was very aggressive early on-she suggested us spend nights together, she would just get naked and hop into bed etc, so she was showing it was important to her early on-and I was the first and only for her-and she got naked for me VERY early in the relationship. Still, when I tried to talk about sex acts, or tried to ask her to tell me what she liked as I was doing it, or tell me what she wanted, silence. She was embarrassed to tell me, she didn't want to talk but just do, she would even tell me-STOP talking (I was just trying to ask what she wanted, trying to learn her hot spots etc). Bottom line, as I look back on it, it was telling that she didn't like to communicate about sex and if I were out single again, that would one of the topics at the top of my list-to find a woman that was not ashamed or embarrassed to talk to me about sex. If you can't talk about sex with your loving partner without getting embarrassed, who can you talk with about it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
For some (many) people sex is closely tied to love and romance. 

Picture the movie Titanic without the physical attraction - imagine its about 2 straight men who are friends..... it just doesn't work. Or Romeo and Julian killing themselves because they can't be friends anymore. (to be clear I'm talking about sexual attraction not gender - a gay same sex couple would feel the same as a hetero opposite sex couple).

I think people go into marriage with an assumption (sadly rarely discussed) about what sex will be like. 

Best friends is great but a friendship is not exclusive. You don't object when your best friend decides to spend some time with another friend, don't care if they decide to have sex with someone else. Friendships can drift apart - with no bad feelings on anyone's part. 

Friendship is a very different sort of relationship from the exclusivity and permanence of love / marriage. 









Vega said:


> snip
> 
> IMO, the _main_ focus of marriage should be the _relationship_; not sex. There are just too many factors to influence the sexual aspect.
> 
> ...


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Did you really bring Titanic up as an example of love? Maybe if love were dependent on how often you said the other person's name...

In my eyes, intimacy is the most important part of a relationship. It is the foundation of everything. Someone you are intimate with will feel more connected to you, will likely be more honest and caring...it is really what makes a marriage work. Everything else makes a partnership work. It's important, but you don't need to be married to have a partnership.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Titanic just makes me think of Rose clawing Jack's frozen hand off her wrist and letting him sink to the bottom.

"I'll never let go" indeed.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Titanic just makes me think of Rose clawing Jack's frozen hand off her wrist and letting him sink to the bottom.
> 
> "I'll never let go" indeed.


Reminds me of that Statefarm commercial where the dude keeps on saying "I'm never..."...getting married, having kids, moving to the burbs...and he keeps on doing it. The last one is, "I'm never letting go". Um, you lied about all those other I'd nevers, I don't believe your punk ass.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Bottom line, as I look back on it, it was telling that she didn't like to communicate about sex and if I were out single again, that would one of the topics at the top of my list-to find a woman that was not ashamed or embarrassed to talk to me about sex. If you can't talk about sex with your loving partner without getting embarrassed, who can you talk with about it.


You know, it could still be useful information. Shame and embarrassment don't need to be a permanent situation. Because she is ashamed and embarrassed does not make her somehow broken.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OliviaG, that is like my wife-not talk just do it, well when she is in the mood. But, if you can't tell a person what you want, there is a lot of guess work involved-especially early on. I now know what does the trick for my wife but I had to try it on my own-explore which is nice but I also think it is a positive to be directive as well-I mean as my wife's lover, I want to please her and will do whatever I can, but I also am not a mindreader. Also, in the heat of passion, I let words slip and my wife almost seems to get pissed with me for saying a word during the act?? It is just a very one sided conversation when it comes to sex for us-always has been and I think that is an indicator (not the only one) of a person have a lower sex drive. This statement-

I liked sex but not talking about it. Talking about it seemed crass and I had never been exposed to talking explicitly about sex; it seemed like something women didn't do and I would have been afraid to really let go in talking about it in case I said something that made my husband uncomfortable with me.

This goes back to the "good girl" mentality, good girls don't say or do that. I think in the privacy of your bedroom/house with your partner, you should be able to talk about everything, openly and not be embarrassed. My wife can't do it and I can live with it but I do think it is a sign. I was on a board one time and read some guys signs of a LD partner, I wish I could find that and post it here. But you read through it and it certainly does resonate with my wife and probably most LD women.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I don't know about that; maybe that's true for an older, more experienced couple. I have always liked sex but have not always been comfortable talking about it. I would have been mortified having a conversation like you suggest when I was dating or the first few years of my marriage. I liked sex but not talking about it. Talking about it seemed crass and I had never been exposed to talking explicitly about sex; it seemed like something women didn't do and I would have been afraid to really let go in talking about it in case I said something that made my husband uncomfortable with me.
> 
> Even now, less talk and more action is preferable to me. Analyzing it to death robs the experience of some of its magic. I can talk about virtually anything now, with zero hangups or embarrassment, but if my husband wants to do something I'd much prefer that he just do it. If I don't like it I'll put the brakes on. But please, let's not have to talk about it; that's a turn-off.


I mostly agree with PAPS. I understand where you're coming from--it does take away some of the magic. But when you're considering legally tying yourself to someone for the rest of your life and depending on them (and ONLY them) for your sexual needs---that's something worth having an awkward conversation about.

Embarrassment is one thing. Repression is something entirely different. Leaving something like that up to trial and error (when sometimes the trying doesn't even happen until late in the game) is flirting with disaster.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> I believe my mistake and probably a lot of guys mistake in marriage is that we spend a lot of time before marriage talking about the future-where we want to live, if we want kids and if so, how many, where we want to work, our families and a lot of other every day life situations. BUT, we don't spend time talking about our sexual expectations-or just thoughts on sex period. You ASSume that will all work out, I know I did. We didn't live together before marriage but each time we were around each other-usually weekends or arranged week nights where we could, we were all over each other, very hot and steamy. I ASSumed once married we would be like that even more-we never were, even newly married. Granted, we were probably 2-4x a week then-which I was happy with and would be more than enough now. BUT, the signs were there, she got very embarrassed talking about sex, she didn't want to go into any detail about sex or sexual terms. She wanted to change the subject as quickly as I brought it up. That should have been a sign but I was young and in love. I think couples need to throw sexual expectations on the table before marriage, I think you need to be able to talk about masturbation, about oral, about anal if that is your thing-never has been mine. I just think you can learn a lot about a person by how they talk and what they will say. If your partner is very uncomfortable even talking about sex, chances are they don't really like sex that much for whatever reason.


My wife is often embarrassed about or uncomfortable with talking about sex. Yet so far throughout our relationship together there is very little sexually (including lots of non-vanilla stuff), that she doesn't enjoy or won't do.

Before my wife and I got married we didn't talk much about where we wanted to live, if we wanted kids (we have had two together, they're 15 & 12), where we wanted to work or the future. In fact when she first asked me out on a date and then had sex with me on our third date at her request, neither of us thought we would be anything other than some at the time fun together.

Likewise we didn't talk about sexual expectations regarding frequency or practices we expected going forward. We just did things in the moment and sought consent just before the moment. If something worked for us we kept doing it if it didn't we'd let it go after trying it for a while just to be sure.

What we mostly talked about (and still do) is some work experiences, friends, holidays, European history, politics, music, theatre, movies, literature and art.

Yet in a few weeks I will have been happily married for 17 years. Add a few more weeks after that and I will have had a high frequency/quality sexual relationship with my wife that has lasted 20 years.

As to assumptions, for any long term sexual relationship that I was in, I always assumed that sex would probably taper a little and would sometimes wax and wane along the way as well. Which is what has happened, so we are now down to a frequency of 4-6x and often more a week.

Considering the fact that not less than twice a day has been the norm at the beginning of all of my sexual relationships. I can't imagine ever thinking that a frequency of 2-4x a week at the start, would promise much frequency in the long term.

The point I want to make is, it is better to judge someone by what they do rather than what they say or won't say.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I agree - and disagree. I also would feel very uncomfortable discussing sex early in a relationship. At the same time it is such an important issue.



I suppose online dating sites could have sex questionnaires where the information is kept secret, but an overall "compatibility score" is generated - hmm, maybe time to create a startup :grin2:

It wouldn't guarantee that people won't change, but at least it could warn people that the are stating out very incompatible. 






OliviaG said:


> I don't know about that; maybe that's true for an older, more experienced couple. I have always liked sex but have not always been comfortable talking about it. I would have been mortified having a conversation like you suggest when I was dating or the first few years of my marriage. I liked sex but not talking about it. Talking about it seemed crass and I had never been exposed to talking explicitly about sex; it seemed like something women didn't do and I would have been afraid to really let go in talking about it in case I said something that made my husband uncomfortable with me.
> 
> Even now, less talk and more action is preferable to me. Analyzing it to death robs the experience of some of its magic. I can talk about virtually anything now, with zero hangups or embarrassment, but if my husband wants to do something I'd much prefer that he just do it. If I don't like it I'll put the brakes on. But please, let's not have to talk about it; that's a turn-off.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I mostly agree with PAPS. I understand where you're coming from--it does take away some of the magic. But when you're considering legally tying yourself to someone for the rest of your life and depending on them (and ONLY them) for your sexual needs---that's something worth having an awkward conversation about.
> 
> Embarrassment is one thing. Repression is something entirely different. Leaving something like that up to trial and error (when sometimes the trying doesn't even happen until late in the game) is flirting with disaster.


I am VERY appreciative of the non-verbal cues my husband took as he paid attention to me during the earlier days when I was shameful and embarrassed. It went a long way to reassure my shame and help me break away from it.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

NS, never said she was broken, that was your term. BUT, now 27 plus years into our relationship, she has not changed and I feel comfortable in saying she will not. I don't see a magic pill changing that part of her-and honestly I would be shocked if she ever said a "dirty" word during sex, before of after. As in dirty word of "harder/faster" or "OH YES, OH GOD". That is dirty in her mind, heck me even saying you are so wet is given a mean look, or me saying OH YES-she frowns on that, and if I do let something go-shhhh, you might wake the kids. 

Personal, congrats on your successful marriage, thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want sex 2x a day. Or more. Or less. People want what they want.
> 
> Where it starts to get unreasonable is when you decide that the world should conform to your wishes:


Posters usually aren't asking the world to have sex with them.



always_alone said:


> I want to be rich, and so everyone should send me 1$. That's not too much to ask is it? I mean, it's only a dollar. Most people wouldn't even notice it's gone. I'll even demonstrate my largesse and exclude those who count that as a day's wages, and I'd still get a billion.


It would be reasonable to ask a friend for $1. Heck, if you asked a stranger for $1, they'd probably give it to you.



always_alone said:


> I'll admit, though, that sometimes I read these threads and I think, gosh it would be nice to be told that I'm beautiful, or desirable, or to get massages, or whatever. It's so easy to see what other's have and think it should be your own.


Expecting your SO to tell you that you're beautiful or desirable or give you a massage is a perfectly reasonable expectation on your part. If I were your SO, I'd do those things.

I don't get this idea that it's unreasonable to expect anything from others. Of course you can't be dependent on others for what you want, but having some expectations for what you hope to get out of a relationship is good practice. Assuming that you're doing your best to meet your partner's expectations.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> While I like the post, there is one big difference between money and sex: If I give you money, you have more, but I have less. If we have sex, it should be something we both enjoy and we both gain.
> 
> Of course if someone doesn't want sex, then there is a loss and gain, but unlike money there is no way to measure the balance. "not wanting" sex can range from it not being a top preference at the moment (would rather watch TV), to it being a horrible experience.
> ...


Careful with the word "should", Richard.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> NS, never said she was broken, that was your term. BUT, now 27 plus years into our relationship, she has not changed and I feel comfortable in saying she will not.


It sounds like you think she is broken. She does not communicate the way you do. Had you known that that would have been a red flag to you. I am very comfortable saying she will not either without the helpful, guiding, loving hand that enCOURAGEs the change. 

Let's say I have a kid who is ashamed of his batting. Instead of care, I badger him for more and more batting. As his parent, I have the right to insist he bats more. He gets upset, and for a time, tries to please me with more batting. I have not enCOURAGEd him to change his view of batting at all. In all likelihood, I have INCREAED his reticence.




> I don't see a magic pill changing that part of her-


I am not suggesting a magic pill that will change HER. But after decades of habit, face it, even if you "got it" today, it is likely too late.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am VERY appreciative of the non-verbal cues my husband took as he paid attention to me during the earlier days when I was shameful and embarrassed. It went a long way to reassure my shame and help me break away from it.


NS, would you say that you were motivated to break away from the embarrassment? Did you acknowledge it? 

That's the difference I'm talking about between embarrassment and hard-coded repression. Embarrassment can be worked through (I was embarrassed at first too). I believe repression often cannot be worked through, mostly because the repressed person doesn't WANT to work through it, and in fact won't even acknowledge its existence.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

But see NS, I have encouraged her to share, encouraged her to let her walls down and not nagged her to do so-I have also accepted she is who she is-and I love her. I don't think she is broken, she is who she is. But this again turns into how I have failed. Amazing really but nothing I wouldn't expect from you!!  Thanks as always for your posts to me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> NS, would you say that you were motivated to break away from the embarrassment? Did you acknowledge it?


Not at first. My mantra was that is what wives do. That is how women are. That is what married couples do. And I would have continued in that vein forever, I suspect. There was no real REASON for me to abandon my position. Until he made it clear to me that he married me, not my vision of what a "wife" was, and that he did not share that vision of what a wife was. He set an effective limit. I had to choose between holding onto my right fight or learning another way of thinking about it.



> That's the difference I'm talking about between embarrassment and hard-coded repression.


We are talking shame here, not just embarrassment. What was drilled into me as a child was SHAME. Shame to be female. Shame to be anything other than wife and mother. Shame that anything sexual is BAD which makes you BAD. You do this nasty thing for your husband because you love him, and men are yucky like that. But you avoid it as best you can.

Why would I be able to get past that shame and someone else could not?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> But see NS, I have encouraged her to share, encouraged her to let her walls down and not nagged her to do so-I have also accepted she is who she is-and I love her. I don't think she is broken, she is who she is. But this again turns into how I have failed. Amazing really but nothing I wouldn't expect from you!!  Thanks as always for your posts to me.


Words don't work.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Maybe we should stop _expecting_ a certain amount of sex, and simply be _grateful _when it happens.


I'm assuming that this "not expecting anything of our SO" applies to everything; 

Should we not expect a husband to continue to "date" his wife once they're married? By this rule, I can't see why that should be expected of him. The wife shouldn't expect anything and simply be grateful if he does actually choose to pay attention to her.

This "no expectations" game might be a good way to avoid getting hurt, but it's a piss poor way to live your life.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would I be able to get past that shame and someone else could not?


The world is full of people who aren't able to move past shame. We're not all equal.

You ultimately made the decision that your relationship with your husband was more important than your vision of the natural order of things. Many people would decide exactly the opposite.

In any event, I'm glad that things worked out for you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> The world is full of people who aren't able to move past shame. We're not all equal.
> 
> You ultimately made the decision that your relationship with your husband was more important than your vision of the natural order of things. Many people would decide exactly the opposite.
> 
> In any event, I'm glad that things worked out for you.


I was motivated by his strength, honesty and courage. Thanks.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Perhaps the best indicator of a woman who likes sex: get her hormone levels tested. High normal T and DHEA and she's a keeper.  There's an objective method for you.
> 
> If you're already married: there's hormone replacement therapy for that.


Hormone therapy only works for a woman who is motivated to try it in the first place. It can be great for a woman who's trying to get her mojo back, but she has to want to first.

We see this with low-T men all the time. The low-T actually kills their motivation to even try it.

Edit:

My my, aren't I the party-pooper today?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Perhaps the best indicator of a woman who likes sex: get her hormone levels tested. High normal T and DHEA and she's a keeper.  There's an objective method for you.
> 
> If you're already married: there's hormone replacement therapy for that.


For the first case, yes at the time of the test. I suspect all bets are off once pregnancy (ies) occur, you can hope but no guarantee they will wind up back at the base line. 

For case #2, yes is motivated as Fozzy says and if it there is no contraindication due to family history of cancer risk for example.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Words from you don't work (others here seem to have some sort of respect for me), so why do you keep responding to my posts?? Just ignore me, since your brilliance can't help an idiot/lost cause like me!! I would be very happy if you would, so that means you will do the opposite!!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I agree with you Fozzy; try being married to a man if you want to deal with someone not motivated to go to the doctor about sexual issues. Then you'll see what digging one's heels in really looks like! Women are much easier in this regard - we've had to do it all our lives. (Period trouble, pregnancy, birth control, menopause).
> 
> If I've learned anything this year, it's this: desire = hormones. All the hand-wringing and psychological analysis in the world won't fix a hormone imbalance.


Sure. If there is a hormonal balance. If you were raised by my mother and the nuns, you might think differently. Being motivated to change your core is not easy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Words from you don't work (others here seem to have some sort of respect for me), so why do you keep responding to my posts?? Just ignore me, since your brilliance can't help an idiot/lost cause like me!! I would be very happy if you would, so that means you will do the opposite!!


I think someone told you where the ignore list is. Feel free. But believe it or not, I have actually helped people in your situation. So if there is some lurker out there, maybe I will get a thank you for your perseverance again some day.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Btw I don't know why you think I have any feelings at all about you. Disrespect? I DO think you have your fingers in your internet ears yelling It's Not ME, It's HER. Which does you no good, since you can do nothing about that.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OliviaG-

You posted this-

I've never had to tell my husband what I wanted; he was good at reading my reactions - never had to read my mind, my body was giving him all kinds of feedback. 

My wife has never told me either, and I have figured out what pushes her buttons, it can be fun to explore-but at the same time-I do think some feedback is also helpful along the way-nothing spectacular but maybe an OH YES, that feels good. I can read body language and actions-that is great but also a little verbal is not a bad thing either. I used to do that early on when my wife used to give oral, I wanted her to know what was feeling good to me and also how much I appreciated her doing that for me. 

What you call dirty talk - talking in the heat of passion is not what I thought you meant when you said "talking about sex"; I thought you meant a discussion about it outside of the act.

I did mean a talk about sex outside the act, not in explicit details, just basically if it was important to you and things you like-more like pillow talk maybe after the act-did you like that, would you like to try this sometime etc, just being able to do something like that is more what I am getting out-not telling someone to stop talking or getting openly embarrassed if the topic comes up. 

The way you describe your wife's reaction to things said in the heat of passion, she sounds very sexually repressed. That's a whole different thing than what I was talking about. You should have noticed this before marriage didn't you? Did you just ignore it? Or did you kind of like it because it made you feel like she was inexperienced (which a lot of men seem to like)?

She was far more aggressive early on, I mean SHE took the lead early on, it was awesome and I was in awe of her. Women I had been with before, I was the aggressor from the start. She was passionate and into it, so I am sure did ignore but then again, I was in love and she was taking control.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> It's a lot easier to motivate a person with normal or above average desire levels than one with no desire at all or very little.


Not when the problem is not desire levels. You could have doped me up (despite no hormone imbalance) until I was awash in the stuff. It would not have changed what I thought of sex one bit.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I think you just agreed with me...


Or I am not understanding you. You seemed to be saying that regardless of what is going on in someone's head, fill 'em up with hormones, and they will f like bunnies.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you have a spouse who doesn't seem to want sex that there can be a multitude of reasons for this. Some may be physical, some psychological. If you have done everything in your power to address possible psychological or relational issues for an extended period of time and nothing changes, then maybe there is a hormone (physical) problem.
> 
> If there is a lack of the right hormones there will be no desire no matter if everything else is perfect. The person themselves won't recognize it; they don't miss a hunger they don't have.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

WOW, NS, I actually agree with you on this point-

It's Not ME, It's HER. Which does you no good, since you can do nothing about that.

Yep, but this is a forum to discuss issues, to vent, to share, to complain or whatever you feel you need to do. You have always made it know that pouting/complaining around my wife is so very beta, I think some guys like me come here and do vent/complain. I have also mentioned that SHE is the one that needs to change, and I can't make her change. I am not going to make a threat, because I am not prepared to act on that threat. I get that your husband did-and that worked for you-because YOU wanted to make the changes but you can't take your situation and assume it will work for everyone-it is not one size fits all. Every situation is different. It is what it is, and despite what other folks here believe-which also I can't change, my wife is a special person that I love dearly. She has a lower need for something than I do, unfortunately that is the person that has control, not just sex but all aspects. My wife likes to go shopping and for me to go with her. I can't stand going shopping but will go sometimes because I know she enjoys it. But, if up to her we would go much more often-but I control it because I have less need for shopping. The difference is, she can go shopping with her Mom or friends, and still have a great time. I can't have sex with anyone else. 

I feel like you continue to attack me every chance you get, I get your feelings on me, but I can't figure out why you feel the need to continue to add comments when I do post here? It is your right but what purpose does it serve?? I do think ignore should be in order-but then again, maybe you will say something that does help me and I might miss it!!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

This thread was easier to follow when it was men vs women.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
You are right for people who are comfortable having sex early in a relationship. 

For others love and long term commitment come before sex. At that point it can be very difficult to end things when the sex turns out to be incompatible. You've already fallen in love and don't want to give that up and instead just hope the sex gets better.

Some way to find out about sexual preferences / interests before there is a long term commitment would be really nice. 







OliviaG said:


> The problem with asking people about sex early in a relationship is that you're relying on them telling you the truth. I don't think you should be overly hopeful that you'll get the truth.
> 
> I think you're much better off evaluating action over talk.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> I feel like you continue to attack me every chance you get, I get your feelings on me, but I can't figure out why you feel the need to continue to add comments when I do post here?


I am not trying to attack you. I am sharing a PoV and what your words sound like outside of your thinking mode. I also mentioned that I have helped people in the past, even lurkers, though on this group I am not sure it is allowed. I think I will go check the terms of service.

I am not sure I mentioned this in this thread. So maybe you don't know this. Many zillions of years ago, I brought my marriage issues to usenet. One very persistent person helped me a lot, even though I was resistant at first.





> It is your right but what purpose does it serve?? I do think ignore should be in order-but then again, maybe you will say something that does help me and I might miss it!!


As I mentioned, my posts have been helpful to others besides the OP in the past.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OlivaG-

I agree, BC pills are something I know impacts my wife and her sex drive. She is taking them now for irregular and heavy bleeding but before when she got off them, I could tell a difference (she had been on them for years when we didn't want kids as actual BC). I had a V so we don't need her to take them for BC reasons but her doctor wants her to stay on them-and she likes that comfort as the heavy and irregular scared us both to death-and it caused her obvious problems with clothes etc.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

NS, I guess it is just the way you post that feels like a personal attack.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> This thread was easier to follow when it was men vs women.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> It would be really nice, but I don't think it's possible; the person themselves might not even know if they're the type to be reticent about sex until they have a long term commitment.
> 
> I think if you wait to have sex until you have a serious commitment then you take a big risk. More risk than I'd be comfortable with unless I knew I could be fine with breaking it off and with having wasted the time.


I agree with this a zillion percent, even to the degree that I think some religions who advocate this do their followers a disservice.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> If your wife is having heavy and irregular bleeding (or was without BC pills) then she has a hormonal imbalance, *most likely*.


My doc told me that the most frequent cause is actually the benign (non cancerous) growths like polyps and 2 other kinds whose names I cannot remember. Not saying my doc was right. Just sharing what info is available.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> NS, I guess it is just the way you post that feels like a personal attack.


My DH has nicknamed me "Android". I don't do it on purpose. You cannot see my sunny, smiling face.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I have a feeling that hormone problems are what causes the benign growths.


TMI alert...









Not in my case. I had polyps growing on my other 2 kinds of growths. Two weeks of bleeding that required incontinence protection to leave the house. No hormone problem at all.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Seems to me one perspective to help reduce the number of mismatches is to assume that the sex you have before marriage will be the most frequent and enthusiastic sex you will ever have. I know that is not necessarily the case. But it is often the case for marriages where the sex eventually goes downhill. So to protect yourself from ending up in a mismatch, do NOT assume sex will get better after you get married. If you are unhappy with your sex life before marriage, and your fiance says "don't worry, it will get better after we are married as we get to know each other better", my advice is RUN FOR THE HILLS. Might cost you a wonderful marriage. But for sure it prevents you from getting stuck in a marriage to someone who doesn't find you all that attractive and wants to marry you for other reasons. Getting better after marriage should be a bonus. If you are counting on that to get to the minimum satisfactory level long term, then you are probably marrying the wrong person.

And as for talking about it, all well and good to say "don't talk, do" if you are GGG for most of the things your partner tries to do. So well and good to suggest most try "doing" first. But if your partner does not respond favorably to "just do it", then for sure insist on talking. If they won't go along with most of the doing and they also won't talk about it, RUN FOR THE HILLS. Sooner rather than later.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I don't think it's worth arguing about, do you?


I am not arguing with you. I am sharing information on the internet that is different from your information.



> I hope they never grow back for you; they should not, if there was no underlying cause for their growth in the first place.


I have no idea if there was an underlying cause, just that hormones weren't it. They won't return, thanks. I have no uterus. Yay!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm glad you found a solution to your problem. Others have different problems - it seems that your problem is not PAPS18's wife's problem or her doctor would have recommended surgery rather than the birth control pill as treatment, particularly since she has decided *she doesn't want to get pregnant again*.


Um. No, not really. My doc also wanted me on BC because surgery is more invasive. I had to push for it. You are getting ticked at me for responding to your assumptions with information. But it is helpful for real information to be presented.

Did you even read the part where he said he got snipped?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


>


So I followed the arrow up too far. When I saw the gauges above his head my first thought was "Why is William H Macy wearing Mickey Mouse ears?"


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Vega-
> 
> I do agree this-
> 
> ...


Agreed, PAPS. Envy and selfishness can definitely bring out the worst in us. 



> Back to what I said about talking sex before marriage-you are 100% correct, your drive IS going to change due to circumstances that will happen during the marriage-as you mentioned, giving birth, losing a job, losing a parent or sibling as you get older, your children leaving the nest, etc etc. There is no predictor of how these changes will impact your sex life. My thought on it is this though-if your spouse has trouble discussing sex or seems to push that subject away or off the table, I do think that is a true indicator of being potentially being low drive. If you bring up something, like oral sex they don't want to talk about it, or if you try to give oral sex and you are pushed away, that is a sign. I guess my point is, typically there are signs early on that indicate a true behavior that many times a couple in love will overlook. I think a healthy sex discussion is something a couple should talk about before marriage. Granted, with my wife-she was very aggressive early on-she suggested us spend nights together, she would just get naked and hop into bed etc, so she was showing it was important to her early on-and I was the first and only for her-and she got naked for me VERY early in the relationship. Still, when I tried to talk about sex acts, or tried to ask her to tell me what she liked as I was doing it, or tell me what she wanted, silence. She was embarrassed to tell me, she didn't want to talk but just do, she would even tell me-STOP talking (I was just trying to ask what she wanted, trying to learn her hot spots etc). Bottom line, as I look back on it, it was telling that she didn't like to communicate about sex and if I were out single again, that would one of the topics at the top of my list-to find a woman that was not ashamed or embarrassed to talk to me about sex. If you can't talk about sex with your loving partner without getting embarrassed, who can you talk with about it


Not disagreeing with you. We should definitely attempt to talk about it before we get married and yes...a show of embarrassment could be an indicator about not being able to talk about problems that may arise in the future. 

Then again, at what point in the relationship do we talk about sex? Some would say "early"...which could drive the other person away, even if they're comfortable talking about sex. It could drive them away because they could get the idea that you're MOSTLY interested in sex and NOT the rest of the relationship. Personally, I am very comfortable talking about sex. But if a man wanted to talk to me about sex within the first few dates, I'd run for the hills. In *my* mind, he's more interested in sex than the relationship. 

But from HIS point of view, he doesn't want to get too involved with someone (a.k.a. fall in love) and "waste his time" with someone who he can't talk to about sex! 

It's probably a discussion worth having within the first few months (somewhere between 3-6 seems reasonable) but not WEEKS of dating. I think enough time should go by to show that (s)he's not just interested in sex without having invested too much time in someone who is obviously not on the same page (sexually). 

So, it's a catch-22.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There are no guarantees - however - there are traits which tend to correlate to a happy sex life. 

1. Generosity: A partner who has an 'all about you' switch
2. Adventurousness: 
3. Strength of overall feelings for you: 
4. Playfullness: 









OliviaG said:


> I think that's a safe assumption for most people.
> 
> 
> 
> If my partner didn't respond favourably to "just doing it", then I'd already know what I needed to know. S/he could tell me whatever s/he liked, but if what s/he said did not align with what s/he did, I'd believe the action and not the words, anyway.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> There are no guarantees - however - there are traits which tend to correlate to a happy sex life.
> 
> 1. Generosity: A partner who has an 'all about you' switch
> 2. Adventurousness:
> ...


You just described my dogs :grin2:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Posters usually aren't asking the world to have sex with them.


No, of course not. But another person is a part of that world, and what I have learned is that I cannot expect anyone to want to have sex with me. Or to find me beautiful. Or desirable. Or to offer me massages. (Unless I pay for them, of course.)

I mean, I can try to expect it, but again and again the world shows me that it doesn't really give a crap what I want.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> While I like the post, there is one big difference between money and sex: If I give you money, you have more, but I have less. If we have sex, it should be something we both enjoy and we both gain.
> 
> Of course if someone doesn't want sex, then there is a loss and gain, but unlike money there is no way to measure the balance. "not wanting" sex can range from it not being a top preference at the moment (would rather watch TV), to it being a horrible experience.
> ...


But Richard, it's only a dollar. You won't miss dollar will you? It won't even buy you a coffee after all. Besides, haven't I given you all sorts of wonderful posts to ponder??

IOW, exactly! How do you calculate cost?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Actually I have on occasion given money to strangers because I thought they needed it. Once on a trip to Europe I found out the person sitting next to me on her way to visit her husband (in the military) didn't have enough money to get from the airport to the city. I handed her 50euro. Was I scammed? Maybe - but I felt like I'd done a good deed 








always_alone said:


> But Richard, it's only a dollar. You won't miss dollar will you? It won't even buy you a coffee after all. Besides, haven't I given you all sorts of wonderful posts to ponder??
> 
> IOW, exactly! How do you calculate cost?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
you can't expect everyone to be attacted to you, but isn't it reasonable to hope (expect?) that your partner will do all those things for you? Isn't that a reasonable expectation in marriage?

I guess its quite possible that people have very different ideas about what is expected in marriage. Maybe that would be an interesting thread.




always_alone said:


> No, of course not. But another person is a part of that world, and what I have learned is that I cannot expect anyone to want to have sex with me. Or to find me beautiful. Or desirable. Or to offer me massages. (Unless I pay for them, of course.)
> 
> I mean, I can try to expect it, but again and again the world shows me that it doesn't really give a crap what I want.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Dogs probably make the best role models for how to love, don't you think?


OMG! Every day my dogs go totally ape **** when I get home. Mom's home! OMG I am going to die! Mom's home!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Actually I have on occasion given money to strangers because I thought they needed it. Once on a trip to Europe I found out the person sitting next to me on her way to visit her husband (in the military) didn't have enough money to get from the airport to the city. I handed her 50euro. Was I scammed? Maybe - but I felt like I'd done a good deed


Yes, people can be very generous, no doubt. If I worked at it, I could probably collect quite a few dollars.

But that isn't the point, really, is it? Just because you find something to have a low cost, or just because you make your decisions in a certain way doesn't mean others think that same way.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> you can't expect everyone to be attacted to you, but isn't it reasonable to hope (expect?) that your partner will do all those things for you? Isn't that a reasonable expectation in marriage?
> .


I'm not talking about everyone. I'm talking about anyone.

And yes, I can expect all kinds of things. But I will be disappointed.

Doesn't matter who thinks it is reasonable.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I guess I expect very different thinks in a loving relationship than from random people. I expect someone who loves me to be happy putting in extra effort to make me happy, as I am to do so for them.

I have no such expectations for random people - though I find most people actually are pretty generous. 




always_alone said:


> I'm not talking about everyone. I'm talking about anyone.
> 
> And yes, I can expect all kinds of things. But I will be disappointed.
> 
> Doesn't matter who thinks it is reasonable.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I guess I expect very different thinks in a loving relationship than from random people. I expect someone who loves me to be happy putting in extra effort to make me happy, as I am to do so for them.
> 
> I have no such expectations for random people - though I find most people actually are pretty generous.


I seem to be failing to articulate my point well. Of course a love relationship will have a different dynamic than one with random strangers. Otherwise, no one would bother.

But what I have found is that if I align my expectations to who the person is, rather than who I want them to be, I am not disappointed very often. Yes, I can make my SO tell me that I look okay, but I can't make him see me as beautiful. Yes, sometimes I can guilt him into sex even when he's not into it, but then it is lackluster and depressing.

All in all, I just find it easier to adjust my expectations than anything else.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Dogs probably make the best role models for how to love, don't you think?


I just peed on the carpet and shredded my wife's pillow. She'll be home soon. Will update.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Somehow I missed this post before, but I'd have to say I've had nearly the same experience. But add another 11 years onto it.


All going well, we'll also get to enjoy 11 years or more of the same moving forward. That said if we don't, at least we've enjoyed what we've had.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Each of us - is armed. We have an arsenal of weaponry at our disposal. But we are also bonded together. 

And - it is foolish to injure someone - who you will then have to carry. 

The bazooka we each carry - contains an armor piercing round of disappointment. This is an armament to be used sparingly. 





always_alone said:


> I seem to be failing to articulate my point well. Of course a love relationship will have a different dynamic than one with random strangers. Otherwise, no one would bother.
> 
> But what I have found is that if I align my expectations to who the person is, rather than who I want them to be, I am not disappointed very often. Yes, I can make my SO tell me that I look okay, but I can't make him see me as beautiful. Yes, sometimes I can guilt him into sex even when he's not into it, but then it is lackluster and depressing.
> 
> All in all, I just find it easier to adjust my expectations than anything else.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Each of us - is armed. We have an arsenal of weaponry at our disposal. But we are also bonded together.
> 
> And - it is foolish to injure someone - who you will then have to carry.
> 
> The bazooka we each carry - contains an armor piercing round of disappointment. This is an armament to be used sparingly.


The reality is that I wouldn't even be with my SO if I thought him selfish or inconsiderate. What drew me to him in the first place was that he was not that guy.

And we are compatible on so many levels. Which does not, of course, mean perfectly compatible, with some of the differences being more challenging than others.

The way I look at it is that I am and have always been quite independent and not particularly interested in changing myself to accommodate other people. I needed someone who would accept me for who I am, and it would drive me nuts to be with someone who always wanted to fix me or was perpetually disappointed in me.

And I figure I owe it to my partner to accord him that same consideration.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I just peed on the carpet and shredded my wife's pillow. She'll be home soon. Will update.


Let your wife know that I am willing to teach her to potty train you. If she has the bedroom door open or you not in a crate while she is gone, the pillow is on her.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Dogs probably make the best role models for how to love, don't you think?


You might be onto something since my dogs do love to sniff balls and ass lol. >


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> It would be hard to accept staying married to someone who found me unattractive and undesirable. I don't think I could stand it.


It is harder than hard. I don't think anyone can endure it for long and retain their sanity. I know I haven't.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Each of us - is armed. We have an arsenal of weaponry at our disposal. But we are also bonded together.
> 
> And - it is foolish to injure someone - who you will then have to carry.
> 
> The bazooka we each carry - contains an armor piercing round of disappointment. This is an armament to be used sparingly.


See, that is a big part of why I stayed married to my wife. She shot me with her bazooka. Repeatedly. Why should someone else have to lug me around? Seems only fair for her to do the carrying. She broke it. She owns it.

Yes, bad on me for sticking around after it became clear how often the rounds were incoming. Guess I am a slow learner. But once I became emotionally quadriplegic, couldn't see foisting myself on anyone else.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> The sticky part is what's reasonable? I don't think I'd want to marry someone who didn't find me attractive, or didn't desire me, so I do expect my husband to find me attractive and tell me so once in a while and to show some desire. If either of those stops for whatever reason, then something's wrong and I feel the need to identify the problem and do my best to correct it.* It would be hard to accept staying married to someone who found me unattractive and undesirable. I don't think I could stand it.*


Agreed, especially bolded. Knowing my personality where it is very easy for me to detach from anyone, I would check out quick if it ever got to that point. Even worse I would think would be staying with someone who you knew didn't desire you but faked it so you wouldn't leave.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Even worse I would think would be staying with someone who you knew didn't desire you but faked it so you wouldn't leave.


At some point when you have invested far too much with someone who pretended to desire you the only remaining course is to fake it back at them. Sauce for the goose baby!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,
That makes perfect sense. My issue with the way he treats you is primarily related to his high and rising gaslighting index (GI).

There are couples whose marriages are predicated on polite fictions. As long as they 'say' the proper stuff to each other, it is tacitly understood that their actual behavior can be completely at odds with their speech. 

These are folks to whom - courtesy rules. 

Then there are folks like you - for whom - truth rules. 

Partners generate a constant stream of non verbal communication (NVC). When that stream gets completely out of synch with their word stream - folks like you (and me) - attempt to reconcile the delta. 

Miscommunications happen. But if the delta is instead a deep rooted pattern - that is different. 





always_alone said:


> The reality is that I wouldn't even be with my SO if I thought him selfish or inconsiderate. What drew me to him in the first place was that he was not that guy.
> 
> And we are compatible on so many levels. Which does not, of course, mean perfectly compatible, with some of the differences being more challenging than others.
> 
> ...


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