# An epidemic of narcissism



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/04/opinion/drexler-mothers-leaving/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Why is this happening?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> Opinion: Why there are more walk-away moms - CNN.com
> 
> Why is this happening?


pure shelfishness!

but hey not everbody is cut out to be a good parent!


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

This is why mandatory parenting classes should be part of the curriculum regardless if they want to have kids. These classes should be taught in a realistic setting where they have take home a doll and take care of the baby 24/7. This should be a graduation requirement. Too many people have kids because they are so cute and adorable but refuse to do the work that involved to raise a healthy child.

I also think mental illness education should be part of the curriculum. This education might prevent somebody in the future from selecting a partner who is not fit to be a parent.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Men have done this since the dawn of time... it's simply another (bad) way of women catching up with men IMO. 

It's just that society thinks it's different or worse when a Mum does it.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not entirely certain this is a new, or even an increasing, phenomenon. The concept of every single family in society raising all of their children in a hands-on-fashion from birth through early adulthood is a very modern construct. A hundred years ago, if a poor woman abandoned her children, no one much noticed or cared. Victorian cities were teeming with abandoned children and orphanages and work houses were packed beyond capacity with them. Wealthy women didn't have to abandon their children, as handing them off to be raised by nannies and tutors was the norm. Daily interactions with the children were entirely optional for the wealthy, and being too involved with actual parenting was even discouraged. Among the working poor, kids went into service or apprenticeship, and out of the house, at 10-14 years of age. The only people expected to do the daily parenting of their children from birth through late teens were the relatively small segment of society that made up the middle class. And even amongst that narrow slice of society, there were those who couldn't hack it and ran off. 

Today, we expect 100% of parents to tackle those same parenting hurdles. We adopted middle class values as the gold standard. Turns out not 100% of people who have children are actually up to the task. They never were.

I'm not saying it's not bad, only that it's not all that surprising.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

That's true.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm sure the increase in single-father households has far more to do with a fairer child custody system than it does with "walk away moms." I hate when reporters try to invent a problem.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

_"Though there are no hard numbers, reports would seem to indicate that the number of moms who actually do run away -- or at least walk away -- is increasing."_

Sounds like someone making stuff up to sell a book.

That, and the obligatory "It's a mans fault" comment has to be included.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I'm not entirely certain this is a new, or even an increasing, phenomenon. The concept of every single family in society raising all of their children in a hands-on-fashion from birth through early adulthood is a very modern construct. A hundred years ago, if a poor woman abandoned her children, no one much noticed or cared. Victorian cities were teeming with abandoned children and orphanages and work houses were packed beyond capacity with them. Wealthy women didn't have to abandon their children, as handing them off to be raised by nannies and tutors was the norm. Daily interactions with the children were entirely optional for the wealthy, and being too involved with actual parenting was even discouraged. Among the working poor, kids went into service or apprenticeship, and out of the house, at 10-14 years of age. The only people expected to do the daily parenting of their children from birth through late teens were the relatively small segment of society that made up the middle class. And even amongst that narrow slice of society, there were those who couldn't hack it and ran off.
> 
> Today, we expect 100% of parents to tackle those same parenting hurdles. We adopted middle class values as the gold standard. Turns out not 100% of people who have children are actually up to the task. They never were.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not bad, only that it's not all that surprising.


Rowan, you raise some very interesting points here, and have given me food for thought....


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm guess that the woman pictured found a new love in her life.

METH.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I'm not entirely certain this is a new, or even an increasing, phenomenon. The concept of every single family in society raising all of their children in a hands-on-fashion from birth through early adulthood is a very modern construct. A hundred years ago, if a poor woman abandoned her children, no one much noticed or cared. Victorian cities were teeming with abandoned children and orphanages and work houses were packed beyond capacity with them. Wealthy women didn't have to abandon their children, as handing them off to be raised by nannies and tutors was the norm. Daily interactions with the children were entirely optional for the wealthy, and being too involved with actual parenting was even discouraged. Among the working poor, kids went into service or apprenticeship, and out of the house, at 10-14 years of age. The only people expected to do the daily parenting of their children from birth through late teens were the relatively small segment of society that made up the middle class. And even amongst that narrow slice of society, there were those who couldn't hack it and ran off.
> 
> Today, we expect 100% of parents to tackle those same parenting hurdles. We adopted middle class values as the gold standard. Turns out not 100% of people who have children are actually up to the task. They never were.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not bad, only that it's not all that surprising.


This is absolutely true. Read this, Amazon.com: Parenting for a Peaceful World (9781921004148): Robin Grille: Books.

The truth is, we are better parents now, overall, than at any time in recorded history.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh, and even in the middle classes children spent a fair chunk of their time at boarding schools.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

waiwera said:


> Men have done this since the dawn of time... it's simply another (bad) way of women catching up with men IMO.
> 
> It's just that society thinks it's different or worse when a Mum does it.


exactly.
I'm not a walk away but I did allow my son's dad to have the bigger chunk of time with our son during the school year. When I made this choice,the judgment rained down from all directions.none of the people sitting there judging me even bothered to cast that judgment in the direction of the child's dad when I was the full time parent.


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## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

I knew early on in life that I had selfish tendancies. Not in a way that says the world revolves around me every minute of every day but in certain aspects of my life -- such as my free time. I cherish my free time. I always have and when I do get it I do what I want to do. When I got married we both agreed before marriage that children were not going to be a part of our lives. He flipped the script a couple years in, even tried to sabatoge my birth control, and we eventually divorced because of it. 

Hate to say it but if I did have children I know that I would probably be a walk away mom. I am thankful everyday that I had the wherewithal to know who and what I was. 

I don't think this necessarily makes me a narcissist though. Or maybe it does?!?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

IrishGirlVA said:


> I knew early on in life that I had selfish tendancies. Not in a way that says the world revolves around me every minute of every day but in certain aspects of my life -- such as my free time. I cherish my free time. I always have and when I do get it I do what I want to do. When I got married we both agreed before marriage that children were not going to be a part of our lives. He flipped the script a couple years in, even tried to sabatoge my birth control, and we eventually divorced because of it.
> 
> Hate to say it but if I did have children I know that I would probably be a walk away mom. I am thankful everyday that I had the wherewithal to know who and what I was.
> 
> I don't think this necessarily makes me a narcissist though. Or maybe it does?!?


I absolutely adore the honesty in this post.Thank you for sharing this!!

:smthumbup:


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

IrishGirlVA said:


> I knew early on in life that I had selfish tendencies. Not in a way that says the world revolves around me every minute of every day but in certain aspects of my life -- such as my free time. I cherish my free time. I always have and when I do get it I do what I want to do. When I got married we both agreed before marriage that children were not going to be a part of our lives. He flipped the script a couple years in, even tried to sabotage my birth control, and we eventually divorced because of it.
> 
> Hate to say it but if I did have children I know that I would probably be a walk away mom. I am thankful everyday that I had the wherewithal to know who and what I was.
> 
> I don't think this necessarily makes me a narcissist though. Or maybe it does?!?



I admire your honesty not just to us but to for yourself. So many people are living unfufilled lives when they are not honest with themselves first. Some people should not have children because having children and raising them in a loving, nurting home is fundamentally incompatible with your your life outlook . It does not, *I repeat* make you a bad person. Just like I am not ever going to be a brain surgeon, some people should not have kids because of the personal requirements. I have always known that I wanted to be a dad. Once my son was born it made that desire even stronger. I'm not any better than you or you better than me. Its just a choice. 

Some folks become parents when they should have not become parents. This is why parenting classes should be taught in schools as a requirement to graduate and in the curriculum it should be taught that people who are on the fence or not fully committed to having children should seek long term or permanent birth control.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I absolutely adore the honesty in this post.Thank you for sharing this!!
> 
> :smthumbup:


Me too. I would dare even say if people were this honest upfront even on the first date we would have less divorce overall.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Sanity said:


> Me too. I would dare even say if people were this honest upfront even on the first date we would have less divorce overall.


Absolutely.Sadly the majority will never catch on to that.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm so glad this post came up....
I've been dealing w/this for some time now w/my fiance.
His ex wife is a narcissist and also alienating his three children from him. (Which most parents who do this are narcissist) I've done a lot of research on this matter - and it seems that these people come in different degrees of narcissism but also do not mature past a young stage in their lives. It's sad mainly b/c what the children have to endure, but that they too may become narcissist.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

JustAGirl said:


> I'm so glad this post came up....
> I've been dealing w/this for some time now w/my fiance.
> His ex wife is a narcissist and also alienating his three children from him. (Which most parents who do this are narcissist) I've done a lot of research on this matter - and it seems that these people come in different degrees of narcissism but also do not mature past a young stage in their lives. It's sad mainly b/c what the children have to endure, but that they too may become narcissist.


My best friend divorced his ex NPD/BPD wife years ago and she still finds ways to make his life hell especially since he remarried. My buddy is also trying to have another kid with new wife which i'm sure will set off the NJ EX. 

My advice to you is VERY strong boundries that both you and your STBH must follow religiously. That was the only way that my buddy and his new wife were able to live in peace. Some people can be reasoned with but NPD's are just not worth it. Get things in writing from the court and just be ruthless and let your NO's mean NO and YES's mean YES. Calm reasoning will not work on folks who do not believe in boundries. Oh and I know this sounds terrible but do yourself a favor and do not allow his NPD ex to enter your home especially after marriage. You do not need that toxic energy in your home and you need to keep those hands where you can see them.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

My SO's parents are textbook NPD...I'm not a psych doc but damn they match every single trait.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

Sanity said:


> My best friend divorced his ex NPD/BPD wife years ago and she still finds ways to make his life hell especially since he remarried. My buddy is also trying to have another kid with new wife which i'm sure will set off the NJ EX.
> 
> My advice to you is VERY strong boundries that both you and your STBH must follow religiously. That was the only way that my buddy and his new wife were able to live in peace. Some people can be reasoned with but NPD's are just not worth it. Get things in writing from the court and just be ruthless and let your NO's mean NO and YES's mean YES. Calm reasoning will not work on folks who do not believe in boundries. Oh and I know this sounds terrible but do yourself a favor and do not allow his NPD ex to enter your home especially after marriage. You do not need that toxic energy in your home and you need to keep those hands where you can see them.


Trust me when I say this....you are 1000000000000000000% correct!! She doesn't respect ANYTHING and will say or do whatever to get what she wants. Right now, she has almost succeeded in alienating all three children. Whenever he has tried calling, she ignores the call or doesn't answer. Whenever he has spoken to them in the past - she yells in the background, talks bad about him and they either end up crying or she jerks the phone away from them - you can actually hear them telling her, "Noooooooo don't take the ph...." and it's over. So he has tried to explain to them that they don't get along, he doesn't want them to go thru that and to please call him when they can talk without having to go through that. But they never call.....

In my research, most parents who alienate are narcissts.

This is STRAIGHT from Hostile Aggressive Parenting - Emotional & mental child abuse and exactly what we're dealing with.

• badmouth a parent in front of the children and at every opportunity? 

• not answer the phone when the other parent calls? 

• convince the child that they should change their surname? 

• play on the children's feelings of guilt and sympathy? 

• use the child as a weapon against the other parent and family members? 

• order or manipulate the child to not answer the phone when it rings? 

• say that the child does not want to speak for to the other parent? 

• undermine the other parent by encouraging the child to defy the other parent 

Yes, we could take her back to court - I have so much written down, recordings, witnesses etc.....but WHO will enforce? There is a divorce decree w/a custody agreement SIGNED by a JUDGE....still she does this.

Oh, and btw, there is a "no trespass" order on her, she can't come to the house or she will go to jail.

BOUNDARY SET!


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> My SO's parents are textbook NPD...I'm not a psych doc but damn they match every single trait.


Scary, huh?


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Just A Girl said:


> Trust me when I say this....you are 1000000000000000000% correct!! She doesn't respect ANYTHING and will say or do whatever to get what she wants. Right now, she has almost succeeded in alienating all three children. Whenever he has tried calling, she ignores the call or doesn't answer. Whenever he has spoken to them in the past - she yells in the background, talks bad about him and they either end up crying or she jerks the phone away from them - you can actually hear them telling her, "Noooooooo don't take the ph...." and it's over. So he has tried to explain to them that they don't get along, he doesn't want them to go thru that and to please call him when they can talk without having to go through that. But they never call.....
> 
> In my research, most parents who alienate are narcissists.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Definitely keep those records. You might want to contact your attorney and ask him/her what your options are. If the EX does not follow court orders to the letter you can get her on contempt of court. It takes time but if you are persistent and the judge finally sees what a NJ she is they might give you sole custody. 

Its really something that when somebody applies for a law enforcement position they have to go through a physiological screening but when it comes to the most innocent creatures on earth (our babies), a simple online parenting class is enough to get custody. Unfortunately NPDers are great at fooling the courtroom with their fake tears and are professional victims. Oh if we could only tag them like cattle so they are easily recognizable and no other poor soul has to deal/breed with them. As you can tell I have zero tolerance for NPDers. They are a cancer on society.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

JustAGirl said:


> Trust me when I say this....you are 1000000000000000000% correct!! She doesn't respect ANYTHING and will say or do whatever to get what she wants. Right now, she has almost succeeded in alienating all three children. Whenever he has tried calling, she ignores the call or doesn't answer. Whenever he has spoken to them in the past - she yells in the background, talks bad about him and they either end up crying or she jerks the phone away from them - you can actually hear them telling her, "Noooooooo don't take the ph...." and it's over. So he has tried to explain to them that they don't get along, he doesn't want them to go thru that and to please call him when they can talk without having to go through that. But they never call.....
> 
> In my research, most parents who alienate are narcissts.
> 
> ...


BTW with all due respect your STBH is a VERY lucky man. Healing after divorcing an NPDer is so much better with the love of a good woman. My buddy's recovery is due mostly because he found a great woman to marry that helped him find his testicles and hope in the future. My hats off to you ma'am. :smthumbup:


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I saw your thread and posted (after writing a BOOK!) and then it was gone. See your PMs. Been there, dealt with that. You'll have to take her to court for contempt of court. Violating a court order is contempt. She'll have to comply - she can pay a fine or go to jail. 

You can file the motion on your own without an attorney if you can't afford one.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Oh, and in lots of states, because the children are minors, you can give permission on their behalf to legally record their phone calls, especially if you are concerned about emotional abuse. 

He settled out of court 2 weeks before the court date after hearing his own recording while on the phone with our daughter saying "I know you are recording this you B****!" "Kiddo, you know what we talked about, right?" Coupled with the psych evaluation results diagnosing his severe NPD while complimenting MY parenting.

The psych eval was the BEST $6K I ever spent.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

There are different types of narcissism too. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. My dh's exwife is the same way. She started going on GNO, enacted the cheater script to a T. 
Everything is about her. She's done and said some things that were laughable if not somewhat psychotic.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Oh, and he has to continue to call, send cards, presents on holidays, etc. The kids CAN NOT think he has given up even when it appears there is no chance of them being in his life. I don't care if this goes on until they are 18 - he HAS to constantly make an effort. Visit them at school if he has to.

Sorry to hijack.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

Sanity said:


> BTW with all due respect your STBH is a VERY lucky man. Healing after divorcing an NPDer is so much better with the love of a good woman. My buddy's recovery is due mostly because he found a great woman to marry that helped him find his testicles and hope in the future. My hats off to you ma'am. :smthumbup:


Thank you.....when we first got together, I wondered if I could withstand this. But he was still fighting (and she loves to fight, argue, call names and put him down) but once I started talking to him, helping him see that fighting with her wasn't doing him or his children any good....he stopped. Slowly because old habits die hard but he got to the point where it was ONLY about the kids and I saw her getting angry about that too.

He tells me over and over that my ex doesn't realize how lucky he is....my ex and I share custody of our son. He is happy and well adjusted. We've never put him in the middle or talked bad about one another....we both love him.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> There are different types of narcissism too. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. My dh's exwife is the same way. She started going on GNO, enacted the cheater script to a T.
> Everything is about her. She's done and said some things that were laughable if not somewhat psychotic.


I know allllll too well....

Wanna hear something funny?

SHE cheated (several times but let's talk about the last one where he left) and has since said, "He broke up their family"....
He hired a PI, (after paying alimony for 7 months) and got his divorce on the grounds of adultry and you know when that portion came up at their divorce hearing, her atty spoke up and asked if they could leave the court room? 

Everything SHE is doing, she says HE is doing.....
Drives me insane!


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

She sounds like she has borderline personality disorder. 
His ex decided out of the blue she wasn't happy. Started doing GNO and would've say where she was. He got really in her face and tried tracking her down. 
Finally he found her one night at a bar sitting on the same side of the booth flirting w a guy. She went ballistic and after that told everyone she wanted a d bc he was too controlling. 
She ended up moving out into her bf's house and now she tells the kids "we had to go in two different directions in life. We were on different paths."
Uh no you were a whöre. 
She doesn't use the cs money for the kids, hardly spends any time with them. It's awful. 
She started crying in court when the judge told her she had to drive 20 min to do the child exchanges. She expected him to go to her house because "he's the one who moved to a different state."
We were forty miles from her. 
Shes given up on being a good parent. Now all she cares about is her bf and partying.


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## Sussieq (Apr 6, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> Opinion: Why there are more walk-away moms - CNN.com
> 
> Why is this happening?


You must mean in YOUR opinion it's narcissism. Not sure why you needed to share this.....unless you're looking for an amen corner. Anyway, there's more to the story, such as she is mentally ill.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Did you read the story at all before you decided to go off on me?


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

Usually someone who is narcissistic is someone who's been damaged during childhood, or learned the behavior - if you haven't dealt with one - you might not wanna stay on this thread.

I've only dealt with this over a year, my STBH has for 14....there is SO much pain involved in this....and yes, bitterness....you can't help it


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Sussieq said:


> You must mean in YOUR opinion it's narcissism. Not sure why you needed to share this.....unless you're looking for an amen corner. Anyway, there's more to the story, such as she is mentally ill.


Uh, no the article is says: 

"What is happening?

It's hard to say, but our increasingly me-first world might have something to do with it. According to a study published in the journal Social Psychology and Personality Science, *clinical narcissism* --defined by heightened feelings of entitlement, decreased morality and a dog-eat-dog mentality -- has increased by 30% over the past 20 years. 

"In her book The Narcissism Epidemic, Jean Twenge argues that we live in a culture that not only tolerates, but also encourages, "being true to ourselves" and "never compromising." This can extend to parenthood, as more and more mothers and fathers resist the notion that parenthood is necessarily life changing -- and perhaps not all it's cracked up to be."

So... it's not her speculation - that's what the article, had you read it, says.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> She sounds like she has borderline personality disorder.
> His ex decided out of the blue she wasn't happy. Started doing GNO and would've say where she was. He got really in her face and tried tracking her down.
> Finally he found her one night at a bar sitting on the same side of the booth flirting w a guy. She went ballistic and after that told everyone she wanted a d bc he was too controlling.
> She ended up moving out into her bf's house and now she tells the kids "we had to go in two different directions in life. We were on different paths."
> ...


Her sister is bi-polar....
This girl isn't afraid of anything or anyone.
She's been to jail, she and her sister have beaten her MIL.
She took pills for 10 years of their marriage and my STBH worked AND took care of those kids.
She has been in two treatment facilities and on and on and on....

Everytime he's turned around, he's gotten the shaft.
The state of SC is for the mother - no matter what kind she is!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

My ex was professionally diagnosed so I know what I'm talking about as well. I thought he was bi-polar but they often occur concurrently. However he was not diagnosed with that and when I read up on NPD I saw how correct that diagnosis was. His 'manic' phases were only periods of power and acceptance when everything was going his way and his 'depressive' moods were any time he was called out on being wrong. Not BPD.

As a parent he did not read to her in elementary school. That was boring to him to read a simple child's story so he didn't do it.

He never helped her with projects for school - that was HIS time with her and not to be interrupted with anything of that nature.

When she was young she didn't want to go with him and he screamed at her saying he didn't HAVE to see her at ALL if he didn't want to. She sucked in her sobs and unhappily went with him. He didn't care about her feelings; his first thought was how dare she waste his time.

Absolutely narcissism affects parenting.

ETA - I've read up on the causes. He was in foster care as an infant, then adopted at 8 months old. I think his NPD was caused by a combination of not bonding properly as an infant coupled with a mother who, after having 7 miscarriages finally had her baby and I think she treated him like he walked on water, only exacerbating the problem. She never put her foot down with him.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I was with a narcissist for 20 years, married for 17. Seperated and divorced for over a year now. The amount of damage done is astounding, but what has surprised me even more is the amount of bitterness and venom coming from her.

I had no idea just how deep the hurt in me was, and just how messed up my marriage was until I started dating a very wonderful and patient woman. Some of the things you have been saying JustAGirl sound very much like the things my SO says.

The more I unravel the past 20 years, the more messed up it becomes. I do think that unless you have been involved with a narcissist, you really have no idea, and no way to imagine just what kind of a living hell it can be.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I was with a narcissist for 20 years, married for 17. Seperated and divorced for over a year now. The amount of damage done is astounding, but what has surprised me even more is the amount of bitterness and venom coming from her.
> 
> I had no idea just how deep the hurt in me was, and just how messed up my marriage was until I started dating a very wonderful and patient woman. Some of the things you have been saying JustAGirl sound very much like the things my SO says.
> 
> The more I unravel the past 20 years, the more messed up it becomes. I do think that unless you have been involved with a narcissist, you really have no idea, and no way to imagine just what kind of a living hell it can be.


I know!!! It's amazing! My friends hear the latest 'stories' and are always simply astounded. They call it 'backwards land' that he lives in. Because everything he said I was doing, he actually was. He is SO bitter! How dare I leave! How dare I question him! Most people who are angry, the anger wears off over time. For him it's like it just keeps building - just crazy!


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I was with a narcissist for 20 years, married for 17. Seperated and divorced for over a year now. The amount of damage done is astounding, but what has surprised me even more is the amount of bitterness and venom coming from her.
> 
> I had no idea just how deep the hurt in me was, and just how messed up my marriage was until I started dating a very wonderful and patient woman. Some of the things you have been saying JustAGirl sound very much like the things my SO says.
> 
> The more I unravel the past 20 years, the more messed up it becomes. I do think that unless you have been involved with a narcissist, you really have no idea, and no way to imagine just what kind of a living hell it can be.


I know. I was with mine for fifteen years. He also has BPD features. 
Over the past five years I've slowly unraveled all the things he did to make sure he subtly (or not) got his way. 
He is a master at making it look like he is a great giving person. He had excuses for everything. 
I wrote a big long thread in the ladies lounge about him and my father. 
Now my father was the worst kind of narc there is, bordering on psychosis. I think he had actual breaks with reality if not multiple personalities. 
After that I ended up with another one who just hid it really well. 
Funny thing is looking back most of our friends were N's too. These people couldn't have a normal conversation. And I would end up feeling like I was the social dork! 
No one would just talk about their lives, their pasts, feelings, what they think or want. It was all intellectual BSing and oneupmamship. So talking about the news and then endlessly going on about their own theories about this or that or educating us on their supreme knowledge of some arcane aspect of history. 
It got to the point where I couldn't talk to my ex bc all he wanted to do was this stupid BS about sci fi or technology.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

JustAGirl said:


> Usually someone who is narcissistic is someone who's been damaged during childhood, or learned the behavior - if you haven't dealt with one - you might not wanna stay on this thread.
> 
> I've only dealt with this over a year, my STBH has for 14....there is SO much pain involved in this....and yes, bitterness....you can't help it


My h and I both have exes with narc and BPD tendencies. At least we understand each other but it can make things stressful. 
I am really trying hard to let go a d detach from the past.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> I was with a narcissist for 20 years, married for 17. Seperated and divorced for over a year now. The amount of damage done is astounding, but what has surprised me even more is the amount of bitterness and venom coming from her.
> 
> I had no idea just how deep the hurt in me was, and just how messed up my marriage was until I started dating a very wonderful and patient woman. Some of the things you have been saying JustAGirl sound very much like the things my SO says.
> 
> The more I unravel the past 20 years, the more messed up it becomes. I do think that unless you have been involved with a narcissist, you really have no idea, and no way to imagine just what kind of a living hell it can be.


Ever heard the saying, "You never know how sick a relationship is until *you* get well?" That's part of all this....they have sucked you in, brainwashed you.....my STBH said their relationship changed on their honeymoon. I've read they can flip a switch and it's usually some milestone. Marriage, he said each time they had a child, it got worse. He wanted a life, that's who he chose and thought that was how life was handed to him. Then it was her taking pills (of course she says, "well they are perscribed") and at the beginning of their D, she tried to claim abuse, the judge threw it out....but he stayed for his kids. He said she would have killed them if he weren't there....she drove high with three babies in the car and he couldn't live with that. He has given up his whole life (never been to do anything he wanted to do) for his children. And she's turned them against him.....how could someone do that? They are sick and need help.....


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I know!!! It's amazing! My friends hear the latest 'stories' and are always simply astounded. They call it 'backwards land' that he lives in. Because everything he said I was doing, he actually was. He is SO bitter! How dare I leave! How dare I question him! Most people who are angry, the anger wears off over time. For him it's like it just keeps building - just crazy!


He sounds like he has BPD too. They are master projectionists. Oh the stories I could tell. 

Have you seen the Oz websites? They are support for people dealing w BPD people. They are so out of touch with reality it's like you are in Oz.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

JustAGirl said:


> Ever heard the saying, "You never know how sick a relationship is until *you* get well?" That's part of all this....they have sucked you in, brainwashed you.....my STBH said their relationship changed on their honeymoon. I've read they can flip a switch and it's usually some milestone. Marriage, he said each time they had a child, it got worse. He wanted a life, that's who he chose and thought that was how life was handed to him. Then it was her taking pills (of course she says, "well they are perscribed") and at the beginning of their D, she tried to claim abuse, the judge threw it out....but he stayed for his kids. He said she would have killed them if he weren't there....she drove high with three babies in the car and he couldn't live with that. He has given up his whole life (never been to do anything he wanted to do) for his children. And she's turned them against him.....how could someone do that? They are sick and need help.....


Again that's a BPD thing. Mine was the same. Everytime they delve deeper into adulthood they get worse. 
Mine got bad after the honeymoon, then after my d was born he lost his mind.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I know!!! It's amazing! My friends hear the latest 'stories' and are always simply astounded. They call it 'backwards land' that he lives in. Because everything he said I was doing, he actually was. He is SO bitter! How dare I leave! How dare I question him! Most people who are angry, the anger wears off over time. For him it's like it just keeps building - just crazy!


I have blocked her from calling and texting and have managed to channel all comunication through email now. The people around me who have been following my situation from the beginning have been totally blown away by her behavior, and it is astounding how within the same email, she will completely contradict herself, and accuse me of saying what she literally said three lines before.

We do have three children and my oldest two, 17 yo son, and 15 yo daughter will not talk to me at all. She has them completely convinced that I was the one who destroyed the marriage, when the straw that broke the camels back was her affair. Fortunately, my youngest son, 11, if perfectly happy with me and is ok with things.

I think it is a very different kind of difficult being the partner of a NPD victim, and one that takes a lot of love, kindness and patience. I think that the right person can find in a NPD victim an incredible partner in ways they could not have imagined if they are able to work through the nastiness that is sure to be thrown at them. I am so thankful every day for my wonderful woman who is willing to stand by my side.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Do your kids know about the affair?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> We do have three children and my oldest two, 17 yo son, and 15 yo daughter will not talk to me at all. She has them completely convinced that I was the one who destroyed the marriage, when the straw that broke the camels back was her affair. Fortunately, my youngest son, 11, if perfectly happy with me and is ok with things.


That's a shame. You should read my story in my sig line. He tried to alienate her from me but I was able to overcome. She was 10 when it came to a head; he'd been grooming her to turn against me and I didn't even realize until it was nearly too late. There was no affair but he did tell her that I was the one who broke up our family. I guess hitting me, belittling me, spitting on me, threatening my life... none of that counted as destruction of the marriage. For the most part life is so PEACEFUL now! 

I also had to learn how to not engage over the phone or in person. The judge actually ordered our primary form of communication to be via email and if one needed an immediate answer, to call and tell the other party they have an email that needs an immediate reply. So nice to not have to talk to him.

Four more years. I hate looking forward to the next four years going by fast because part of me wants to savor these next four years before our daughter turns 18. On the other hand, I never ever have to have contact with him again after that.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Do your kids know about the affair?


Of sorts. The OM was my youngest sons 4th grade teacher. We were already in the process of seperation when that came out. The kids do not believe there was an affair, because she had worked in the classrooms of the school every year the kids were there, so there was very good plausible deniability. It was turned around on me for being a lying controlling ******* who just wanted to make up hurtful things to make their mom look bad.

She admitted the affair to me rather easily actually when I asked her about it. She pretty much bragged about it and relished the hurt she was trying to cause by smiling through every detail.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> That's a shame. You should read my story in my sig line. He tried to alienate her from me but I was able to overcome. She was 10 when it came to a head; he'd been grooming her to turn against me and I didn't even realize until it was nearly too late. There was no affair but he did tell her that I was the one who broke up our family. I guess hitting me, belittling me, spitting on me, threatening my life... none of that counted as destruction of the marriage. For the most part life is so PEACEFUL now!
> 
> I also had to learn how to not engage over the phone or in person. The judge actually ordered our primary form of communication to be via email and if one needed an immediate answer, to call and tell the other party they have an email that needs an immediate reply. So nice to not have to talk to him.
> 
> Four more years. I hate looking forward to the next four years going by fast because part of me wants to savor these next four years before our daughter turns 18. On the other hand, I never ever have to have contact with him again after that.


I will read your story for sure. Are you the custodial parent?

When this all started going down, I figured that the behavior would stop, or at least mellow a bit after a few months, but it has gotten steadily worse. Is this going to continue indefinitely?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I highly recommend this book: 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1608820254/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/178-7882538-9133307


Sent from my iPhone and that explains the typos.


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