# Where to go from here?



## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

I've been lurking for many months at TAM and reading thru CWI section. Finally thought of sharing my own unfortunate brush with infidelity and how it destroying me, made me question my self worth and the worth of carrying on with the facade of married life.

Backstory.

I'm 36, WW 33, married for 8 years and a beautiful daughter of 6. About 3 years ago, wife moved cities to take up a new job and we stayed apart for about 12 months. She had an EA+PA with a co-worker, which I found out in Sep '13. I did all the mistakes in the book, which stupid BH's do. Believed in all her bull$hit, her gaslighting. The events of 2013 - leading up to the D-Day, her I'm not in love with you speech and the following stuff I did to win her back (which I cant believe I was able to pull off) & her behavior in those days. I'm so scarred by those experiences that I dont know why I didnt throw the fu#king divorce papers at her face. I'm never gonna be able to forget some moments I saw her with OM and the conversations that ensued. 

We went to MC afterwards, did some IC as well but left it midway as it was not working for me. She's been doing a lot of small things for me, she's done a 8 page detailed letter to me (sharing many details of the affair), has written a NC email to OM, etc etc. Somehow, it all feels little. All of that seems like a waste. I still spend each and every day thinking about how unmanly and weak I was and how all of this is a hogwash. I feel for her because she's bee remorseful and has really tried to make up. However, looks like we are differently wired and I cant appreciate the small things unless the big things are sorted out. She's scared to go back to big discussions (understandably so). Our MC tried to give us some tools to have discussions but it didnt last too much. 

The period in which she had the affair, was incidentally one of the worst periods for me professionally (extremely tough new client and a new geography, etc). If there was a time in life when I really needed my partner's support, that was it. It kills be to think that she betrayed me with OM at that very moment.

I've read some stories of R on this board and how the WW took the betrayal issues head on and did the heavy lifting. Not sure whether my WW is up to it. 

I'm not even sure what I'm looking for here. Guess just writing would help me think clearer and get out of this mess.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

If your wife is still working with the other man, it will be very difficult for you. You might meet up with him in some corporate event and it will trigger all the negative feelings again.

Your trust in your wife is broken. You are ashamed of yourself for groveling to her to come back to you. In your mind, you became a Beta Man. During her affair, you became a Beta Man.

You need to see a psychologist. You need professional to help you reconcile your role as a husband.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Grey ghost

Roselyn has the right idea but I think you also need to deal with unresolved issues from the affair head on.

Whether your wife wants to or not.

Are you two living in the same city now?

Your wife has taken baby steps to show remorse but until you talk about what you see as missing in the marriage those issues will never go away.

That can be seen as rug sweeping......

Can you give us more details on the affair, exactly how long it lasted, is the OM still in the picture?

Was he married? Does your wife still have the same job?

And does she know "the why" that allowed her to lie, cheat and no longer feel in love/married to you?

HM


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to fill in a lot more detail for us to get a better picture. How did you find out? Exactly what happened? What did you see? What did she say? Did you expose? Was the OM married? What did he say? Does their employer know? How long had it really been going on? Did she initiate? Did she try and protect him? How did it stop? Etc


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

OM left the company around middle of last year. A good 8-9 months after the D day. He was unmarried at that time. My wife got fired (mass layoff) in Dec & is now starting up on her own. So, they are not working together now but were till upto June last year.

Roselyn - you're right. Not just the affair but the behavior after D day has deeply effected me mentally (Beta'ized)

Here are some more details:

She moved cities & started this job exactly 3 years ago. I joined her about 2 years ago. So, we were in different cities for about 2 years. I used to regularly visit (once every 3-4 weeks) for a few days. POSOM was in her team and slightly senior to her. According to her confession letter, she starting flirting with the OM during late 2012 and early 2013. Then, for various work related trips in Mar - Aug '13, she and OM visited another country several times. The affair turned physical during one of those trips. As per her description (the long 8 pager letter in which she gave me many details), she's the initiator. 

I got the "I'm no longer attracted to you/I dont feel the spark" talk in Aug of '13. The affair was at the peak I suppose at that time. I had relocated my base but was traveling myself to other side of the world quite frequently. It was during one of those 3 week trips that she said that she was not sure that she wants to stay married, etc. I came back a couple of days before her b'day (will write out the painful b'day sequence in detail later). All the usual signs like locking the phone, stepping out to take phone calls, locking the computer, were there. She regularly used to stay back late in office on pretext of work. One weekend night, I could unlock her computer and found out chats, google searches for "morning after pill", etc. I confronted her and she confessed. More pain after that. I couldn't sleep or eat properly. 

There are many other small episodes, a few other friends involved - I already feel tired recalling all of them. Big thing which I remember is that she didn't quit her job and was in contact with the OM till his last day. She insists that the affair was over immediately after the D day. I exposed her to her parents (who've been living with us for quite sometime before that).


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Since you love your wife enough to reconcile with her, you need to work on forgiving her, forgiving yourself, and letting go. If you can't do it alone, get professional help.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> Since you love your wife enough to reconcile with her, you need to work on forgiving her, forgiving yourself, and letting go. If you can't do it alone, get professional help.


 He did not love his "wife enough to reconcile with her". He loved his wife enough to *try* to reconcile with her. There is a difference. If after trying he realizes that he (like many) cannot get over the betrayal, he needs to move on. He does not owe her reconciliation, and cannot be faulted for not being able to.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You need to take the time to heal. You should focus on you and know that you have good qualities. Your esteem took a shot, and your probably resentful for what she made you feel, the actions you tried to take to win her back, and losing your self-respect in the process.

Your marriage should not be the priority right now, but the each of you as individuals. You both need to get to a place where you can talk openly and listen, if not, the marriage is dead. Once you are stronger, and have clarity, you might not even want to reconcile, or you could give her another chance. Once she works on her issues, she will be honest and tell you what went wrong with her. She will have to face the facts that she is not the great person she believes that she is. Then you will have to figure can you love this flawed person. Your perception of her will never be the same again.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

TRy said:


> He did not love his "wife enough to reconcile with her". He loved his wife enough to *try* to reconcile with her. There is a difference. If after trying he realizes that he (like many) cannot get over the betrayal, he needs to move on. He does not owe her reconciliation, and cannot be faulted for not being able to.


True. But even if he chooses to divorce his wife, he will continue to be tied to his wife's affair, unless he finds a way to let go. 

You can rid of the bacteria that produced the toxin, but you still have to get rid of the toxin as well.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

It won't be easy. I ask you to try only because there are kids involved. 

Besides the humiliation that you feel, there is the question of would she do it again. Your thoughts are valid on the affair continuing after dday and only ending (?) after the OM moved.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

This hurt you deeply as your wife was the initiator. She pursued the Other Man and I don't believe that she stopped as she was still in contact with him until his last day at work. He rejected her and she fell back to you. You know this now. You feel that you are the second choice. You are uneasy that she will do this again.

If you are secure enough to accept that she will do this again, given the right condition, then stay married. If you want security to a marriage commitment, it's time to see a divorce lawyer but continue to see a psychologist. Your trust in your wife is non-existent.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GreyGhost said:


> I've been lurking for many months at TAM and reading thru CWI section. Finally thought of sharing my own unfortunate brush with infidelity and how it destroying me, made me question my self worth and the worth of carrying on with the facade of married life.
> 
> Backstory.
> 
> ...


Unmanly? Weak?

Oh, no Sir! Not you!

You were manly enough and strong enough to carry an unfaithful spouse, a child and a very difficult workload.

:allhail::smnotworthy:


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Roselyn said:


> If your wife is still working with the other man, it will be very difficult for you. You might meet up with him in some corporate event and it will trigger all the negative feelings again.
> 
> Your trust in your wife is broken. You are ashamed of yourself for groveling to her to come back to you. In your mind, you became a Beta Man. During her affair, you became a Beta Man.
> 
> You need to see a psychologist. You need professional to help you reconcile your role as a husband.


His wife cheats and he needs to see a psychologist to reconcile his role as a husband ? WTF am i reading ?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Now she wants you back because the OM dumped her and she lost her job ?




> Big thing which I remember is that she didn't quit her job and was in contact with the OM till his last day


What else do you need ? The only reason she is here is because her lover dumped her. She apologizes, not out of love for you but out of fear of the unknown and losing everything she has. No wonder you get the bare minimum.

You say you were ashamed at your reaction back then. I can honestly say that how you are reacting now is nothing to be proud of either. She clearly chose him. You will always be the man she settled for and you know that.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Warlock, you totally mis-interpreted what I posted here. When I said to the OP that he needs to see a psychologist to reconcile his role as a husband, I meant that he needs professional guidance in what a husband is and his expectations should be. You are way too harsh! You don't even let this man decide for himself and insult my intelligence personally.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Moderator, if you are watching current posts in TAM the language that are used are getting to be foul (such as these posted in the response of Warlock). TAM should not encourage foul and profane language in posts.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

GreyGhost said:


> Big thing which I remember is that she didn't quit her job and was in contact with the OM till his last day. *She insists that the affair was over immediately after the D day.*


Yeah!

Many here have heard those exact words. "The Affair was already Over". Not exactly... At DD the Secret is Over. More correctly just another vain attempt of the WS to *minimize* what they consciously, willingly did behind your back.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The time it takes to recover from this is in the neighborhood of five years.

If you had to quit counseling you had the wrong counselor.

Check out PTSD counseling for yourself. Being cheated on is the very definition of trauma. We've had battle hardened soldiers here say going through this was worse than battle.

You are not beta for trying to reconcile. This takes guts and perseverance. That doesn't mean you become a doormat.

There is no reason to assume you cant handle this. This is the result of many long distance relationships. They are always a risk.

Get the two books linked to below , also HIS NEED HER NEEDS.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is a list of things you need to read with your wife and hold her to them. Print them off and go over them together to judge her responses. Good luck

_*The Wayward Spouse Instructions

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

*_


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

GG,
Some people can reconcile and some people can't reconcile. It sounds like you are a "can't" person. There's no shame in that, you gave it an honest shot, the shame is squarely on your WW.

Know that as bleak as your life was professionally a few years ago, you will be challenged again. Time marches on....there will be deaths, health and financial problems in you life. Friends and family who will drift in and out of your life. If your wife was unable to support you then do you think she'll be able to support you when worse a crisis arises?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Roselyn said:


> If you are secure enough to accept that she will do this again, given the right condition, then stay married.


 What does being able "to accept that she will do this again, given the right condition" have to do with the OP being "secure enough"? I would say the opposite, as I think that the OP must be "secure enough" not to accept such cheating in a spouse.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Roselyn said:


> Warlock, you totally mis-interpreted what I posted here. When I said to the OP that he needs to see a psychologist to reconcile his role as a husband, I meant that he needs professional guidance in what a husband is and his expectations should be. You are way too harsh! You don't even let this man decide for himself and insult my intelligence personally.


I did not mean to insult your intelligence. I apologize if it came across as such..

Again, notice that you mentioned psychologist instead of a therapist.. Not sure if it was intentional on your end


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Roselyn said:


> When I said to the OP that he needs to see a psychologist to reconcile his role as a husband, I meant that he needs professional guidance in what a husband is and his expectations should be.


He doesn't need professional help to figure this out.

As a husband his expectations should be:

1. Honesty
2. Respect
3. Love
4. Loyalty
5. Good communication

Obviously having your wife cheat on you means none of your reasonable expectations as a husband are met. Moving forward, he has these possible routes:

1. Reconcile - Both parties put in the hard work to come to terms with her affair and then address the issues in the marriage that may have existed pre-affair.
2. Try to reconcile - but fail because one or both parties were not capable of working past the affair. 
3. Divorce immediately - Trust is broken. The End.

Any of the three routes are acceptable. OP's role as a Betrayed Husband is to pick the one which leaves him with the most self-respect.

Op, please don't be too hard on yourself with this talk of "unmanly" and "weak". Being deliberately back-stabbed by your wife when she fvcks someone else is the most emasculating experience known to man.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Will she take a polygraph to explain that the A was over after D day? 

No more flirting, no more A, no more contact, yet she continued to work with him? 

How would she feel if the roles were reversed? Would she be so understanding? If she is not communicating about this, she is not remorseful. She is not moving the earth to help you with your pain.

Will she pay for more counseling sessions to continue to work thru this?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> True. But even if he chooses to divorce his wife, he will continue to be tied to his wife's affair, unless he finds a way to let go.
> 
> You can rid of the bacteria that produced the toxin, but you still have to get rid of the toxin as well.


Wrong.


his wife is a cheat. She needs to do the heavy lifting, not him. Problem is that he's already done it and hasn't gotten all of the answers and is still wondering why he got slapped the way he has.

It's not his job to get over her affair, it's her job to help get him over it and accept it if he curbs her a$$


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP- you may or may not be able to reconcile. Either way it turns out- it is not a failure on your part.

If they were still working together- would the affair still be going...

After her hot lover leaves and she gets fired- now you look pretty good to her. With her being the aggressor in the affair- she chased POSOM- you have to wonder how she will respond to the next option that comes her way.

Are you two still in MC?

Your wife should be busting her arse to reconcile with you. I'm talking more than an 8-page letter. What is she doing to help you heal? Does or did she make comments to you about being weak during her A?

You sound like a person who managed quite a lot- child care- inlaws living with you- moving stressful job, spouse cheating. That is not the mark of a weak person.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

What makes you think your old lady isn't up to doing the heavy lifting to save *her* marriage?


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Hmmmmmm. :scratchhead: Just read your original and follow-up posts. My question is, after the unbelievable disrespect this woman has shown you, please explain why you're still together. I don't understand how men can allow themselves to be treated this way, and stay with the cheater. You never mentioned the depth of her remorse. Did she actually show any, or is she only upset about having been found out?


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> 
> his wife is a cheat. She needs to do the heavy lifting, not him. Problem is that he's already done it and hasn't gotten all of the answers and is still wondering why he got slapped the way he has.
> ...



Obviously reading and comprehension seemed to have been lost here.

*NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT HIM DOING THE HEAVY LIFTING! 
HIS PERSONAL RECOVERY COMES FIRST. MARITAL RECOVERY IS IRRELEVANT.*

THAT is what my comment was all about.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

OP, if she has not immediately flown home, thrown herself on the floor before you a crying, snot bubbling mess of a human stain, begging for mercy and unable to stand, -- then there ain't a piece of remorse in her worthy of reconciling with.

She needs to earn you back. Trust is gone. She destroyed your M. She needs to rebuild herself back to you.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

GG, sorry to see you here and thanks for providing more details, as painful as it was. Here are my observations:


Your wife is a liar, a cheater and very disrespectful. Remember this going forward.

She is not and was not remorseful about the affair and stopped it only when he had to go away.

She initiated and he was single - so while he was immoral to sleep with a married woman, the cheating was mainly down to her looking for it and pushing it to make it happen.

The fact that she was looking for the "morning after" pill means she had no care for your life putting you at risk of dangerous std's.

Other than an 8 page letter and a meaningless NC email, she has not had any real repercussions for her actions and has almost certainly lost even more respect for you as a man.

I do not believe that you stayed because "you loved your wife enough to reconcile or try to reconcile". You stayed out of fear, shame and apathy. Fear of harming your kids lives, shame at being emasculated and trying to recover that, and a laziness in tackling this situation properly instead of sweeping it under the rug.

I believe she would do it again in a heartbeat but will be smarter at hiding it next time.

You need to consult a lawyer to protect assets, custody etc., file for divorce and serve her, remembering you can stop the divorce process at any time. However you need to be prepared to go through with it at all times.

You need to heal yourself first - this is not about fixing your marriage but more to do with fixing you (do the 180, get in shape, read some of the books mentioned here etc).

Decide if you really want to stay in this marriage. Don't do it for the sake of the kids. They survive better in a happy co parenting environment than in a toxic and resentful marriage.

So far I have not seen any reason to stay with her. She does not love you and I don't think that you love her.

Don't waste time and money on MC until you are sure that she means what she says.

Remember the reconciliation route is long and very difficult with a very small percentage chance of success. She needs a list of things she has to (want to) do - mainly actions not words.
My tuppence worth.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> GG, sorry to see you here and thanks for providing more details, as painful as it was. Here are my observations:
> 
> 
> Your wife is a liar, a cheater and very disrespectful. Remember this going forward.
> ...


:iagree:

OP, manfromlamancha pretty much nailed it.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

it's all good Dogbert. I get you now


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> Warlock, you totally mis-interpreted what I posted here. When I said to the OP that he needs to see a psychologist to reconcile his role as a husband, I meant that he needs professional guidance in what a husband is and his expectations should be. You are way too harsh! You don't even let this man decide for himself and insult my intelligence personally.


Roslyn,
Warlock is not being condescending, but is being astute in this matter. When a BS comes here they are completely unhinged and even more so vulnerable. Whatever advice that is provided is often dismissed unless it is good standing in nature, passive, and the path of least resistance.

The OP has already heard about how much he sucks, to hear that he needs to reconcile himself not only skews the actions of his wife but also in some ways validates her in the OP's mind as being justified. Just by seeing the number of post Warlock, and many others, have submitted they have seen this time after time with only the nouns being different and all other aspects being the same, unfortunately even the endings usually turn out the same, especially for men. 

If the OP takes an aggressive approach now he may have a chance to either save his marriage or salvage himself from this situation the best he can. But I do not think your advice was attacked, merely challenged.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> OP, if she has not immediately flown home, thrown herself on the floor before you a crying, snot bubbling mess of a human stain, begging for mercy and unable to stand, -- then there ain't a piece of remorse in her worthy of reconciling with.
> 
> She needs to earn you back. Trust is gone. She destroyed your M. She needs to rebuild herself back to you.


 Op,

This is the super cliff note condensed version, unless you like complicated matters, no need to push for more detailed understanding.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

GG, what exactly did your wife say and do when you caught her out. What was the birthday sequence you refer to and also the times when you saw her and POSOM together - could you say more? It sounds like she carried on with him for a bit until you got her to write the NC email even though she almost certainly took it underground up until he left.

Also, where are you guys based i.e. what cities are we talking about ? And what other country did they visit ? You may be able to sue the company they worked at for "alienation of affection" (depending on where you guys are).

Take care.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

chaos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> OP, manfromlamancha pretty much nailed it.


Yep! He can add immediately reading Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. Taking the red pill and waking up to reality. His beta is in full control.

Man up, OP. Read this book. Afterwards, read Mindful Attraction Plan. Both by Athol Kay. 

If you care and want her back, read the books.
If you truly want to know what to do, read the books
If you want to dump her, read the books

Do you see a pattern in this advice?


Here's an option. Divorce her, start dating her and others. You'll see a huge difference in women who cheat and those who don't. Which would you pick on an even playing field. A known cheat or a fresh start with a hot babe who won't.

Btw, just maybe, she'll date and F others as she's free of you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Q tip said:


> You'll see a huge difference in women who cheat and those who don't. Which would you pick on an even playing field. A known cheat or a fresh start with a hot babe who won't.


I can't always tell someone who'll cheat from someone who won't. None of us got married expecting our spouses to cheat. I think it's more complex than that.

I reconciled because my wife is, in general, a person of good character. Who cheated. So for me, understanding WHY she cheated is the key point in working out how likely a repeat is, and how to avoid it.

I don't know whether GG's wife deserves another chance and reconciling is very hard....I wouldn't blame anyone who ended a marriage after infidelity.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Man, I think your post is possibly a case of expecting the worst. Understandable, but not necessarily fair. 

Let’s go through your points.

Putting this one at the top, out of order, because I think it is the most important one:



manfromlamancha said:


> You need to heal yourself first - this is not about fixing your marriage but more to do with fixing you (do the 180, get in shape, read some of the books mentioned here etc).


GG, this is absolutely true. You need to become strong within yourself. You need to know you have worth. You need not to look to your wife for validation. 

No marriage is perfect, and if you depend on others for self worth, eventually you will get hurt by their failings. If you believe in yourself, it becomes easier to put things into perspective.

Now to the rest of the post, and sorry Man, but I am going to disagree with much of what you wrote. I think it’s important to note the assumption that seems to underpin what you wrote, and therefore it should be at the top, not the bottom.



manfromlamancha said:


> So far I have not seen any reason to stay with her. She does not love you and I don't think that you love her.


I don’t see how you could know that based on the information supplied. But GG can decide that. 

So, the rest of your post....



manfromlamancha said:


> Your wife is a liar, a cheater and very disrespectful. Remember this going forward.


Cheater - guilty. Liar, almost certainly….you can’t carry on an affair otherwise. But this bit gives me pause.


GreyGhost said:


> As per her description (the long 8 pager letter in which she gave me many details), she's the initiator.


That could be the sign of someone who is coming clean. Trickle truth would normally see her claim to have fought the advances of the OM but succumbed. What do you think GG. How honest or otherwise is she? One clue might be here.


GreyGhost said:


> One weekend night, I could unlock her computer and found out chats, google searches for "morning after pill", etc. I confronted her and she confessed. More pain after that. I couldn't sleep or eat properly.


How quickly did she confess? How much did she trickle truth? Did her confession contain any major lies, and if so, did she later correct that herself, or did she come clean only when cornered with evidence that proved her words false?

Remorse....


manfromlamancha said:


> She is not and was not remorseful about the affair and stopped it only when he had to go away.





GreyGhost said:


> I feel for her because she's bee remorseful and has really tried to make up. <snip. Big thing which I remember is that she didn't quit her job and was in contact with the OM till his last day. She insists that the affair was over immediately after the D day.


Man, why do you say she is not remorseful? GG, why do you say she is? 

How does either of you know when the affair really stopped? 

Degree of blame.....


manfromlamancha said:


> She initiated and he was single - so while he was immoral to sleep with a married woman, the cheating was mainly down to her looking for it and pushing it to make it happen.


“Initiated” covers a range. All the way from “she pushed and badgered for months and moths” to “they were both wanting it but she mad the first move”. I’m not sure how much she pushed, or how much it was down to her. And if it were my wife, the hyperbole would not matter. She did it. That’s enough.


manfromlamancha said:


> The fact that she was looking for the "morning after" pill means she had no care for your life putting you at risk of dangerous std's.


It means she had unprotected sex. That's all. From what I have read on TAM, affair sex is usually unprotected. And particularly if the “morning after pill” search relates to the first time they had sex….would you prefer that your faithful wife did something thoughtless in a moment of passion, or that she pulled out the condoms that she was carrying even though you guys don’t use them…..
She’s damned here whichever way she goes, and maybe that’s fair enough - she cheated - but lets recognise it. Thoughtlessness is not the same as reckless disregard.

Repercussions....


manfromlamancha said:


> Other than an 8 page letter and a meaningless NC email, she has not had any real repercussions for her actions and has almost certainly lost even more respect for you as a man.


The repercussions she feels depends on what sort of person she is. For my wife, having to live with what she did is a life sentence. That’s one of the really sucky things about infidelity. Both of us will live with the fallout for the rest of our lives. I know the pain is genuine for my wife. I’ve seen various waywards express the same thing here. I don’t know GG’s wife, he will have to decide that.

The loss of respect is an interesting one. My response is, not necessarily. And if you are a strong person, it can return. This needs a lot more discussion, but for now, I just think Man is giving a worst case.

Laziness…..????



manfromlamancha said:


> I do not believe that you stayed because "you loved your wife enough to reconcile or try to reconcile". You stayed out of fear, shame and apathy. Fear of harming your kids lives, shame at being emasculated and trying to recover that, and a laziness in tackling this situation properly instead of sweeping it under the rug.


Man, you’ve been 20-30 years in your current relationship according to your profile. At what point did you experience infidelity, and how did you approach it?

Me, I stayed for the sake of the kids, and eventually we reconciled. You seem to throw “Fear of harming your kids lives” as if it was a bad thing. I’m not saying you can or should always stay together for the sake of the kids, but if GG did not even consider that, and made it all about him, what sort of person would he be?

Fear….well who would not fear a major change like divorce? You can’t let it rule you but its a consideration.

Shame……yeah, there is shame to being cheated on. I wouldn’t stay for that reason, but I don’t know if GG did. 

Laziness? A thousand times no. Reconciling is hard work, and long term. And there are periods where you just give your emotions time to settle so you can work out what you really think and feel. I would be more worried if the process WASN’T painful, given how central to our hearts marriage is.

And then you make judgements about GG’s love. Well I love my wife but there are times I hate her for what she did to us. It’s confused. And whether I divorced or reconciled, there would still be some confusion and regret. 

She will cheat again....?


manfromlamancha said:


> I believe she would do it again in a heartbeat but will be smarter at hiding it next time.


Why? Because all cheaters do that? In which case we agree to disagree. Or do you have some more nuanced reason?

Legal advice....


manfromlamancha said:


> You need to consult a lawyer to protect assets, custody etc., file for divorce and serve her, remembering you can stop the divorce process at any time. However you need to be prepared to go through with it at all times.


The marriage may not survive, and I agree it would be prudent to position yourself with an eye to the possibility of divorce. GG, you are unwise if you don’t at least speak to a lawyer and understand your rights and obligations.

But why should you file for divorce? And if you can stop the process at any time, under what circumstances would you stop it? Or is this advice really presupposing divorcee as the outcome and trying to get you started gently?



manfromlamancha said:


> Decide if you really want to stay in this marriage. Don't do it for the sake of the kids. They survive better in a happy co parenting environment than in a toxic and resentful marriage.


The jury is out on that. There is plenty of evidence that kids suffer as a result of divorce. But I agree they would also suffer in a toxic continued marriage. GG, if this is an important consideration to you, let us know and I’ll dig out some information I had on how divorce could negatively impact your kids for your consideration. It's useful if you care about it, and likely to be an awful thread jack otherwise.



manfromlamancha said:


> Don't waste time and money on MC until you are sure that she means what she says.


This seems like “chicken and egg” logic. How do you get to the point of being sure unless you work through the issues through MC or some other means.

I’d suggest rather that you not rely on MC to fix everything. It’s just a tool.



manfromlamancha said:


> [*]Remember the reconciliation route is long and very difficult with a very small percentage chance of success. She needs a list of things she has to (want to) do - mainly actions not words.


Long and difficult, yep. Very small percentage chance of success? I have never seen reliable stats on that. Perhaps you can quote a specific percentage with supporting references. 

But if you want to reconcile, then there’s only one marriage that matters, yours.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK this is to address Wazza's comments on my post.

Precursor to what I have to say: I have a habit of not listing all my reasoning and often come out with a conclusion that I have worked out in my head and as a result of two things: reading what the OP has posted (and in other threads too at times) and a combination of past experience and TAM collective experience i.e. the results of many stories that start out one way and end up another. So here goes.

*So far I have not seen any reason to stay with her. She does not love you and I don't think that you love her.*

If you agree that she is a liar, cheater and disrespectful (which is what I concluded from her actions, then that in itself is a reason not to stay with her. But to add some colour: they are married only 5 years with a 3 year old daughter when she decides to go to another city to work (at this stage we don't know if D3 is with her or with OP) and she then proceeds to "initiate" a physical affair with POSOM, a co worker who was slightly senior to her and to whom she was attracted. This happened while OP was going through a bad time in his life and went on from 2012 to 2013 (about 8 months) before she was caught. After that she went on working with him until he left the company. Apparently she put him through some extra sh!t when he caught her and even had him in knots when he saw her with him (I am trying to find out more about this). She also gave him some version of the "I am not in love with you" spiel. Even though she said it was over , she stayed in contact with him to the very end. SHE DIDN'T LOVE HIM. He is still resentful and openly says that he would leave if not for the kid, and goes on to say that he should have divorced at the time. He also states that he is ashamed and feels emasculated and has no other reason to stay. HE DOESN'T LOVE HER.

In her coming clean, she wrote an 8 page letter. Remember that the POSOM had left (her high and dry), and she was attempting to salvage her relationship (very plan B, wouldn't you say). Also remember that OP found her chats and emails (which is when he discovered her "need for the morning after pill". So he had enough info to piece together the fact that she was the initiator. You are trying to suggest that she is an honest cheater who genuinely wants to come clean without trickle truthing. I still do not believe that OP has all the truth. She has told him details to things that he knows happened - probably because he told her to tell him the truth or else it was truly over. Not sure that this indicates genuine remorse - certainly does indicate Plan B recovery.

*She is not and was not remorseful about the affair and stopped it only when he had to go away.*

Because she didn't come clean on her own. Because she continued contact with him until she found out that he had to go away. Thats when she came crawling back to OP. Because she wrote a meaningless NC letter and then had contact. Because she doesn't want to go back to "big discussions" according to the OP. Because according to the OP, he doesn't believe that his wife is "up to" doing the heavy lifting he has seen other WW's here do to show true remorse. You really can't see this ???

*She initiated and he was single - so while he was immoral to sleep with a married woman, the cheating was mainly down to her looking for it and pushing it to make it happen.*

This came from OP himself and I am inclined to believe that he has seen and heard enough to come to the conclusion that she initiated it.

*The fact that she was looking for the "morning after" pill means she had no care for your life putting you at risk of dangerous std's.*

Whether it is normal for infidelity sex to be in the heat of the moment and without protection, it still doesn't absolve her from putting her husbands life at risk by having sex with him after. And she had months of pursuing before ending up in the sack with him. So yes I would expect her to have supply of condoms with her in case she got lucky.

*
Other than an 8 page letter and a meaningless NC email, she has not had any real repercussions for her actions and has almost certainly lost even more respect for you as a man.*

We need to agree to disagree if you think that she has felt repercussions and is living with a life sentence like your wife. She refuses to talk about the affair with OP for Chissakes!

*I do not believe that you stayed because "you loved your wife enough to reconcile or try to reconcile". You stayed out of fear, shame and apathy. Fear of harming your kids lives, shame at being emasculated and trying to recover that, and a laziness in tackling this situation properly instead of sweeping it under the rug.*

OP has already says that he shouldn't have reconciled but thought about the kid. He also says that he feels emasculated. As for the "laziness", he sounds and is worn down by all of this and went along with the rug sweep. Had he been more energised he would be doing a lot more to speed her a$$ out the door! She hasn't done anything to help him get through his pain.

Now as for me: my wife cheated on me when we were engaged and I was going through an extremely hard time as a very young man struggling to pay my way through university, my dad had just died, I supported my then fiancé and younger sisters, and had no money. She decided to go on a holiday to Spain with friends and slept with at least one guy there and then didn't disclose exactly what happened out of fear. It took me a long time to get the truth out of her and she has been perfect since then. Had I known the full truth I might well have left at the time.

As for OP's wife doing it again - I see no reason for her not to. TAM experience kicks in her and confirms this.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Where did your daughter live while you were living in different cities?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Man, I am providing a counter perspective. You may be totally right. I am not saying you are wrong. I do think there are alternatives and that you have made assumptions.

What I'm about here is giving GG options, things to consider. 

I don't think he is pro or anti divorce at this point, I think he is hurting and confused. As I was at his stage.



manfromlamancha said:


> If you agree that she is a liar, cheater and disrespectful (which is what I concluded from her actions, then that in itself is a reason not to stay with her.


By this logic, noone would ever reconcile. 

I agree that she has cheated, she has lied, and not been respectful. But what is her normal behaviour? Is she someone who made a bad decision and regrets it, or someone who is only sorry she got caught? Is she someone who has lied under pressure (has anyone here not done that?) or a habitual liar?



manfromlamancha said:


> They are married only 5 years with a 3 year old daughter when she decides to go to another city to work


Her decision or joint?



manfromlamancha said:


> Apparently she put him through some extra sh!t when he caught her and even had him in knots when he saw her with him (I am trying to find out more about this).


The birthday stuff? Let's await details before concluding what was said.




manfromlamancha said:


> She also gave him some version of the "I am not in love with you" spiel. Even though she said it was over , she stayed in contact with him to the very end. SHE DIDN'T LOVE HIM.


I got that spiel during wife's affair, and worse. It doesn't have to be the end, and it doesn't have to be emasculating.



manfromlamancha said:


> He is still resentful and openly says that he would leave if not for the kid, and goes on to say that he should have divorced at the time. He also states that he is ashamed and feels emasculated and has no other reason to stay. HE DOESN'T LOVE HER.


Not seeing where he talks about emasculation. Could you point that out please?

My reading of his posts is he is hurt, confused and torn. I well remember those feelings. If you want to reconcile you have to work through them. It can be done, it isn't easy.




manfromlamancha said:


> In her coming clean, she wrote an 8 page letter. Remember that the POSOM had left (her high and dry),


Where does it say this?



manfromlamancha said:


> Also remember that OP found her chats and emails (which is when he discovered her "need for the morning after pill". So he had enough info to piece together the fact that she was the initiator.


Did GG say this was in the chats, or are you assuming?



manfromlamancha said:


> You are trying to suggest that she is an honest cheater who genuinely wants to come clean without trickle truthing. I still do not believe that OP has all the truth. She has told him details to things that he knows happened - probably because he told her to tell him the truth or else it was truly over. Not sure that this indicates genuine remorse - certainly does indicate Plan B recovery.


I'm not suggesting she is an honest cheater. No such thing. I am asking whether the despicable things she did as a cheat are her normal character.



manfromlamancha said:


> *She is not and was not remorseful about the affair and stopped it only when he had to go away.*


Where does it say this? It says contact continued. But the affair?



manfromlamancha said:


> Because she continued contact with him until she found out that he had to go away.


I would agree continued contact is a mistake, but it doesn't mean the affair was still on.



manfromlamancha said:


> Because she doesn't want to go back to "big discussions" according to the OP. Because according to the OP, he doesn't believe that his wife is "up to" doing the heavy lifting he has seen other WW's here do to show true remorse. You really can't see this ???


TAM has a recipe. Not everyone follows it. My wife didn't do a lot of the "heavy lifting" either. We shouldn't be married if I hadn't stayed for the kids at the time. 



manfromlamancha said:


> *She initiated and he was single - so while he was immoral to sleep with a married woman, the cheating was mainly down to her looking for it and pushing it to make it happen.*
> This came from OP himself and I am inclined to believe that he has seen and heard enough to come to the conclusion that she initiated it.


And I agreed. But I added nuance on how to judge it.



manfromlamancha said:


> Whether it is normal for infidelity sex to be in the heat of the moment and without protection, it still doesn't absolve her from putting her husbands life at risk by having sex with him after. And she had months of pursuing before ending up in the sack with him. So yes I would expect her to have supply of condoms with her in case she got lucky.


Where does it say she was pursuing him for months? 



manfromlamancha said:


> We need to agree to disagree if you think that she has felt repercussions and is living with a life sentence like your wife. She refuses to talk about the affair with OP for Chissakes!


My wife and others I have spoken to on TAM talk about guilt. I don't assume she feels that way, I don't know. But how do you know she doesn't? Do you know what she will vs won't talk about or why?

My wife, in the aftermath of the affair, did not understand I was seeking information for closure. She thought I was angry and attacking her. So she would shut down, I would push for more. Vicious cycle. (MC could possibly help this).




manfromlamancha said:


> OP has already says that he shouldn't have reconciled but thought about the kid. He also says that he feels emasculated. As for the "laziness", he sounds and is worn down by all of this and went along with the rug sweep. Had he been more energised he would be doing a lot more to speed her a$$ out the door! She hasn't done anything to help him get through his pain.


She hasn't done everything he wants....probably hasn't done enough. I don't know how much is enough though...



manfromlamancha said:


> Now as for me: my wife cheated on me when we were engaged and I was going through an extremely hard time as a very young man struggling to pay my way through university, my dad had just died, I supported my then fiancé and younger sisters, and had no money. She decided to go on a holiday to Spain with friends and slept with at least one guy there and then didn't disclose exactly what happened out of fear. It took me a long time to get the truth out of her and she has been perfect since then. Had I known the full truth I might well have left at the time.


I can understand that. If I had not had kids I would have made different choices. And I'm sorry for what you went through.

Did you get to a point where you could forgive her for cheating, lying and disrespect? See, if I apply the logic you advise GG with, surely the same logic says you should divorce your wife. What's different?



manfromlamancha said:


> As for OP's wife doing it again - I see no reason for her not to. TAM experience kicks in her and confirms this.


I apologise for the incredibly personal question, but why do you assume your wife won't do it again. I guess this is the thing those of us who have been cheated on hate to consider, but we have to.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wazza, firstly I do not assume that my wife won't do it again. I gave her plenty of opportunity to do it again with almost a dare so that I could boot her out the door. She didn't.

As for whether she did any heavy lifting - well yes she did! More than any heavy lifting that has been described here. If I now found that she was not really remorseful and I was some kind of plan B (strongly doubt it since these were 19 yo boys she met on holiday), I would not get divorced now because I am too old and set in my ways to be divorced - would be more a question of each of us walking away - and what you have to remember is that she still denies sleeping with the guy. Kissing, making out, even getting into bed but then having a breakdown, crying and leaving immediately. Remember that was over 34 years ago, before we were married - I was 20 years old. She hasn't strayed once since then - maybe she was sowing some wild oats. Again, the only confirmation I had was from a "friend" of hers who was there and cheating on her husband at the time. She had subsequently fallen out with my wife and decided to tell me that my wife cheated (but wasn't of the exact details and wasn't sure if my wife went "all the way"). So there is reasonable doubt. Hope that helps you understand my thinking on things so enough of the threadjack.

Mine was not quite the same as being married with kids and struggling through married life.

As for him feeling emasculated, see bolded bits below:


GreyGhost said:


> I've been lurking for many months at TAM and reading thru CWI section. Finally thought of sharing my own unfortunate brush with infidelity and how it destroying me, made me question my self worth and the worth of carrying on with the facade of married life.
> 
> Backstory.
> 
> ...


Look Wazza, you can offer your opinion and I will offer mine. You can even try to shoot down mine, but I cannot sense any remorse based on what OP has said and based on similar patterns in other threads. Of course, there are always exceptions.

Just because you reconciled, without your WW doing any heavy lifting doesn't mean GG should. I would really like to hear more from GG anyway.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> Wazza, firstly I do not assume that my wife won't do it again. I gave her plenty of opportunity to do it again with almost a dare so that I could boot her out the door. She didn't.
> 
> As for whether she did any heavy lifting - well yes she did! More than any heavy lifting that has been described here. If I now found that she was not really remorseful and I was some kind of plan B (strongly doubt it since these were 19 yo boys she met on holiday), I would not get divorced now because I am too old and set in my ways to be divorced - would be more a question of each of us walking away - and what you have to remember is that she still denies sleeping with the guy. Kissing, making out, even getting into bed but then having a breakdown, crying and leaving immediately. Remember that was over 34 years ago, before we were married - I was 20 years old. She hasn't strayed once since then - maybe she was sowing some wild oats. Again, the only confirmation I had was from a "friend" of hers who was there and cheating on her husband at the time. She had subsequently fallen out with my wife and decided to tell me that my wife cheated (but wasn't of the exact details and wasn't sure if my wife went "all the way"). So there is reasonable doubt. Hope that helps you understand my thinking on things so enough of the threadjack.
> 
> ...


I want to be clear that I am not trying to shoot down your opinion, nor to say that GG should reconcile. I don't have enough information to have a view on that. It's about providing him with perspectives to consider. I see it as his decision.

P.S. My wife did a lot of heavy lifting...later...just not in the TAM way. I worded my previous comment on that badly.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Wazza said:


> I can't always tell someone who'll cheat from someone who won't. None of us got married expecting our spouses to cheat. I think it's more complex than that.
> 
> I reconciled because my wife is, in general, a person of good character. Who cheated. So for me, understanding WHY she cheated is the key point in working out how likely a repeat is, and how to avoid it.
> 
> I don't know whether GG's wife deserves another chance and reconciling is very hard....I wouldn't blame anyone who ended a marriage after infidelity.


The Point is, would you date and marry a known, proven cheat? Dating is less involved than marriage in context of the point being made.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Q tip said:


> The Point is, would you date and marry a known, proven cheat? Dating is less involved than marriage in context of the point being made.


A serial cheater, no. I wouldn't consider it. Someone who had cheated once, it was out of character, and they had learned from it and were genuinely remorseful, I would consider it, especially if there were extenuating circumstances.

This is not a defence of cheating, I just think no one is perfect.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Wazza said:


> A serial cheater, no. I wouldn't consider it. Someone who had cheated once, it was out of character, and they had learned from it and were genuinely remorseful, I would consider it, especially if there were extenuating circumstances.
> 
> This is not a defence of cheating, I just think no one is perfect.



I would tend to view a woman's candor, remorse, and accepting full responsibility for her cheating, as a big plus that I'm dealing with an adult I could learn to trust.


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> Now she wants you back because the OM dumped her and she lost her job ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on its head Warlock. Exactly my feelings. Affair was atleast a few months long (not an ONS). It was a choice. All that was said to me during the affair was not a drunken outburst. That's why I feel what's the point even if she's fully remorseful and does everything that a remorseful WW should do. Mentally, she's been to the point of exit once. She's come back for whatever reason - her being there is a sign that something is truly broken.


Grey Ghost


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> Will she take a polygraph to explain that the A was over after D day?
> 
> No more flirting, no more A, no more contact, yet she continued to work with him?
> 
> ...


I asked her exactly the same thing. She said she would not have been able to handle it. But yet expected me to handle it. You'll all ask why. I'll have to share more backstory to discuss her supposed "attachment" to the job.

She was working in an applied research role and this POSOM was theoretical researcher. She got inspired from him (and others at workplace) and wanted to apply for a PhD. She was in the middle of her exams and applications process when D day happened. She said that her chances of a good recommendation will go down dramatically if she leaves this job (there arent many available like this in the place we live). Eventually, she applied to many top schools and ended up getting admit (with a lot of incentives) from one of the Top 10 schools. she declined the admission citing personal reasons, in early 2014. Summary - she did risk ruining our R over an admission chance.


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

the guy said:


> What makes you think your old lady isn't up to doing the heavy lifting to save *her* marriage?


While our MC was on (we had 15-20 sessions over a period of 6-9 months), I regularly kept bringing the A up and how it was something to be dealt before we could go back to marital history, communication challenges, power play, etc. However, the counselor felt that I was vacillating too much between A and other issues. While all this was going on, WW was too scared (almost super defensive) when I brought the discussions about A at home. We had a lot of blow up's. I remember one night when I took the OP's address from her and decided to go and whack him to his senses. She got really scared and kept calling me when I was driving. I drove for a few hours and came back. She knows that there is a lot of anger issues I'm dealing with and A is not the area she can deal with.

So, Heavy Lifting which I seek - which is an urge to understand, discuss, dissect - isnt something she's up to. Whether we call it rug sweeping or guilt or shame - I dont know.


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

thummper said:


> Hmmmmmm. :scratchhead: Just read your original and follow-up posts. My question is, after the unbelievable disrespect this woman has shown you, please explain why you're still together. I don't understand how men can allow themselves to be treated this way, and stay with the cheater. You never mentioned the depth of her remorse. Did she actually show any, or is she only upset about having been found out?


My reason so far: Daughter

Did she show any remorse - yes, she did. Including literally falling at my feet and asking me not to divorce her.
Was it enough for me - No


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GreyGhost said:


> I asked her exactly the same thing. She said she would not have been able to handle it. But yet expected me to handle it. You'll all ask why. I'll have to share more backstory to discuss her supposed "attachment" to the job.
> 
> She was working in an applied research role and this POSOM was theoretical researcher. She got inspired from him (and others at workplace) and wanted to apply for a PhD. She was in the middle of her exams and applications process when D day happened. She said that her chances of a good recommendation will go down dramatically if she leaves this job (there arent many available like this in the place we live). Eventually, she applied to many top schools and ended up getting admit (with a lot of incentives) from one of the Top 10 schools. she declined the admission citing personal reasons, in early 2014. Summary - she did risk ruining our R over an admission chance.


Boy, don't consequences suck? 

Her willingness to prioritize your marriage over her career was your measuring stick for R with her.


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

manfromlamancha said:


> GG, what exactly did your wife say and do when you caught her out. What was the birthday sequence you refer to and also the times when you saw her and POSOM together - could you say more? It sounds like she carried on with him for a bit until you got her to write the NC email even though she almost certainly took it underground up until he left.
> 
> Also, where are you guys based i.e. what cities are we talking about ? And what other country did they visit ? You may be able to sue the company they worked at for "alienation of affection" (depending on where you guys are).
> 
> Take care.


manfrommalancha - we live in India. Not comfortable sharing cities. There are no laws like "alienation of affection" out here. I did seek some professional advice regarding contacting company HR but unless I had some documentary evidence, I couldnt have pursued legal action. 

The birthday sequence... it starts about 20 days before her B'day - when I got the "I'm not in love with you" speech - over phone. This is when I was traveling and she was at home. Of course, the ground got swept beneath me. I discussed leaving work midway and comeback to take a break with her and resolve our issues. She vehemently asked me not to do so, and said that she wanted space to think this through (she was banging the OM at this time and didn't want me to disturb her peace). Like many BH's, I took upon myself to woo her love back. Started planning a bundle of surprises for her B'day. So, I come back 2 days before her B'day. I told her that I'm planning to surprise her & she asked me to keep it low key. On the day, I booked a suite in a posh hotel, packed one of her favorite black dresses, booked a evening play at a theater. Oh, before I forget, bought a solitaire as her present. Took a ride, picked her up middle of the day and started our day. Left daughter at home with my inlaws. We first went and met my boss for coffee (he was in town and wanted to meet me for something else). Quickly checked into the suite. I planted her present in the bathroom - hoping she would discover it after the bath. She did discover it. Didn't acknowledge. I took the present out (she was in her favorite black dress by then) and called her over in the balcony and gave her the gift. It was twilight. She said she couldnt take it since she's not sure where she's right now. She also said that this was the first anniversary gift that she ever received from me and it was too little too late. We went to the play, came back and ate a hurried dinner and slept two feet apart. 3 days later was Dday.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Someone will be along shortly with the long post about what real remorse looks like. You can try searching for it on the forums, too.

Real remorse means she feels horrified at what she did to you, her daughter, and the family. It means she is floored that she was capable of doing what she did, and can't believe how stupid she was. It means she feels to her core that she has a nearly infinite amount of making up to do, a nearly infinite debt to repay you.

Such a person would not stonewall discussions, give you trickle truth, and be defensive.

Good recovery from infidelity requires that she provide all the information you request from her, and she work diligently at building new behaviors within the marriage. R is finding a way for you to trust that she is no longer the same person as the one who betrayed your trust in one of the worst ways possible. This means understanding what happened and why it happened. What was going on in her that this was ok in her mind? But then R is also building into the future a new relationship.

It is possible to come to peace with her infidelity, yet still get divorced. That is not R, it is only the first half of R.

It sounds like your therapist was, like many, ignoring the first half of R and trying to jump directly into the second half of R, which is building a whole new marriage with healthy dynamics. Newsflash to MC, you can't rebuild on a broken foundation!

Some women are simply unable to admit what they did. Some sort of psychological blockage where they cannot admit to being wrong, due to deep self image or confidence issues maybe. I think this is fairly rare. When it does happen, husbands I know in this situation report they recognize this syndrome and they also see the wife doing everything needed to R aside from being able to discuss details of the A. I don't think this is your wife from what you've described so far, but if it is, it may or may not be enough for you.


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Where did your daughter live while you were living in different cities?


With my wife.


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