# Thought Of Sex With My Husband Makes Me Nauseous



## LoveAddict

Hi TAM community,

Long-time reader and first-time poster here. I have generally been able to glean support through the various threads I read on this site, but this anxiety I’m experiencing is prompting me to make my first post, likely in desperation.

I think the title says it all. My husband and I have long been in the cycle of considering separation and then being too scared to file for quite some time, but it’s been the primary focus of our marriage this past year. We have agreed to make one last ditch effort to reconcile. While I am not quite ready to disclose the details of our marriage and how we got here, I will say that we just about literally did not have sex during our marriage. I don’t need all my fingers to count the number of times in the last 10 years, with the last 5 of those times being very mechanical efforts to conceive our children, who are now 5 and 7.

I should mention that my husband was the one who withheld it from me, and now he wants to have sex in this last attempt to reconcile and I feel a bit pressured to do this sooner than later. I don’t know if I can resurrect those feelings, and I’m not prepared to tell him I’m no longer sexually attracted to him. My husband has a history of being controlling and ill-tempered, so it makes it all the more dreadful. However, I believe that if we’re going to put our best foot forward one last time, then we have to test whether or not we can ever be sexually compatible. But what I’m feeling now makes me think of cultures where women are taken to be wives and one of their duties is to be at the sexual whim of the husbands they hate. My stomach is constantly turning.

From the reading I’ve done on these pages, there are a couple of things I want to add before folks respond. 1) Everybody is in therapy — we’re in couple’s counseling and both of us are seeing our own. 2) We have our reasons for wanting to reconcile, and are very different, but healthier, individuals than the people we were when we got married. We have done a tremendous amount of work towards healing our marriage (to which we each contributed in severe ways to its demise) but we believe there is hope for us.

I’m not sure what I’m looking for in posting this. I don’t really have a question. I just have terrible anxiety about this problem and just needed a safe place to let it out. Sorry for the long post, but thanks for reading. As with many others here, I’m feeling extremely vulnerable and am just grateful to have a forum where I can emotion dump, and maybe receive some support.


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## ConanHub

I think counseling for yourself is great. How is that going?


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## raakeshkohli

First of all I empathize with you. I am in a similar boat. Let me tell you this.. What I learnt from some of my close friends told me... Sex is one of the most blissful experiences of being in a married life. If it is taken away or being denied, it is a significant handicap in the marriage.


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## uhtred

If you don't want to have sex with him, then don't feel pressured into it - but consider it to be a sign that they marriage is beyond saving.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

No one wants to have sex with someone they don't like nor does anyone want to have sex with some one who is just not into them.

You stated you are not sure if you are ready to tell him you are no longer 'sexually' attracted to him. 

Well, are you actually sexually attracted to him or not? 

I would argue that being sexually attracted to him is not a switch you decide is on or off. 

If you are not sexually attracted to him get divorced, you both deserve better.

However if you are sexually attracted to him but don't want to have sex because of continuing anger and bitterness over what what has occurred in your marriage then perhaps honest counseling will help.


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## wilson

I would recommend not having actual sex right now. Rather, engage in other intimate or erotic activities that will not have as much pressure. For example, take showers together where you just wash each other. Or cuddle naked, or just topless if you're more comfortable with that. Before you feel like you have to go all the way, do some simple things that are much easier and won't take a lot of 'being in the right moment' attitude.

I actually would recommend you go to an actual sex therapist. They will likely have more specific advice on how to get from zero to sex. Jumping into sex too soon risks creating even more anxiety. Working with a sex therapist will likely be very productive since they can suggest things to try based on the state of your intimate relationship. They will move things along slowly enough so that both of you feel comfortable at each step. 

Forgetting about your husband for a moment---do you like sex in general? Do you think about having sex or sexual experiences? Even if he's not participating, there are still ways you can satisfy your desires. Have you been wanting sex and he hasn't been providing? Or is more that neither of you were really into it?

I hope these questions aren't too blunt, but the more honest and open you can be, the better advice you can get. We all understand the sensitive nature of this topic.


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## Faithful Wife

Can you start with one soft intimate kiss? Just one?

Can you look at him and draw up all of your love for him and kiss him authentically? Just start there. 

Don’t eat the whole elephant at once. A bite at a time. No expectations on him or you. If it feels right, kiss him some more later. 

Discuss it. Feel your feelings and examine them. 

Don’t dive right in to sex until your whole body wants to.


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## lifeistooshort

Feeling nauseous at the thought of sex with your hb is very difficult to come back from. Is it the thought of sex in general or just him?

If it's the latter you have an uphill battle. I got to the point with both of my ex hb's where I couldn't stand the thought of sex with them but did desire other men. At that point I knew the marriage was over. 

But FW's suggestion of starting slow is a good one. It won't help if you feel pressured. 

The issue is really one of safety and trust....as women we need to feel both for good sex with our spouse. I'll guess you don't have those right now.


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## LoveAddict

Wow, thank you everyone, for you thoughtful words. While I still feel uncertain about reviving our sex life, I feel a little less crazy.

To answer one recurring question, I do enjoy sex in general. I also think I have a tricky relationship with it. I’m an extremely sexual person, but know that it has been my primary form of validation since I was a teenager (I’m 43 now!). Hence, the screen name. Since having kids, I have poured myself into them and pushed my need for intimacy to the back burner. It’s easy when you’re so tired. But nonetheless, with the lack of sex for so many years, I have had to ...uh ... take matters into my own hands.

My husband and I were classically trained in non-communication. The kind where if you don’t talk about a problem, then of course it would simply go away. We entered our relationship this way, and nurtured it with this mindset. We discarded each other as humans, and we both behaved in ways that deeply hurt the other. My honest opinion is that we are not ready to rekindle our sex life. I think we are still holding onto a lot of resentment. Today, we fought, and I realized that while we communicate more (meaning we actually talk to each other), our words are still coming from a place of needing to be heard. So, while my initial feeling indicates that I’m not sexually attracted to my husband any more, there’s a high possibility that I’m just still angry.

We individually are growing in very healthy ways, especially in addressing abandonment issues, and that has helped our communication a bit, but we’re still not working together to save the marriage. It feels more like every person for themselves. Our couples’ counselor is a bit slow with us, in my opinion. He’s trying to undo every little hurt we experience, so it feels like more resentment is actually building up in the process. We are going to search for a new therapist.

We only just started kissing again about two weeks ago. He touches me intimately, and up to a certain point, it’s ok. Once it definitely crosses over to things you only do with a lover, that’s when it becomes unbearable. To be honest, I think I am resigned to having sex because I don’t want him to blame me for the failure of the marriage. We have talked about giving it everything we’ve got, which includes physical intimacy, but we are on very different timelines for this. It feels like a Mars and Venus problem. I’m scared of his anger, and while he has come to temper it significantly with all the work he’s done in therapy, I’m still wired to respond to his anger. And I think I’m just biting the bullet to not experience his wrath, but also, selfishly, to feel like I can’t be blamed for the failure of the marriage, if it comes to that.

I don’t know. I frequently suspect that both of us are simply too scared to leave, especially because of the kids. While we both saw many signs early in the relationship that indicated we should not be together, the one thing that kept us close was our equal value in family. It was probably the first priority for both of us. I know we have a ton of counseling to get through still, but this is where I’m at now.


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## wilson

LoveAddict said:


> However, I believe that if we’re going to put our best foot forward one last time, then we have to test whether or not we can ever be sexually compatible.


From everything you've shared, it's hard to see how you can find out if you're sexually compatible at this time in this environment. I don't get the sense that you have a solid loving relationship from which you can explore your sexual compatibility. It seems like you need a better foundation first. It seems like you guys should totally forget about anything sexual for the moment and work on trying to just be friends first. Do stuff like go on walks, make dinner together, talk, etc. Once you start to enjoy each other's company again, it'll be a lot easier to take it to the next level. But that would depend on both of you willingly taking sex off the table for the moment without developing resentment.



> He’s trying to undo every little hurt we experience, so it feels like more resentment is actually building up in the process. We are going to search for a new therapist.


While it can be good to examine points of conflict, it can also just dredge up a lot of hard feelings and not really bring any resolution. Unless there really is something that needs to be worked out, sometimes you just have to move on. Agree that each of you did terrible things and put those grudges behind so you can have a great relationship in the future. Otherwise, you end up like the Middle East where grudges go back generations and never go away.

I hope both of you realize your relationship has some significant challenges which will make success very difficult. It's not impossible, but both of you should understand that getting to a loving marriage will take a lot of work, sacrifice and time. As long as you both want to be on the same team and have the same long-term goal, you'll have a chance.


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## LoveAddict

ConanHub said:


> I think counseling for yourself is great. How is that going?


I have possibly the world’s greatest therapist. And I’ve had quite a few to compare. I have always had a hard time advocating for myself in a relationship — at work or with my friends or with the guy who cut me in line...no problem. But I’m a sucker in romantic relationship (or, I suck at romance, I should say). My therapist has helped me value myself again. I’m actually confident in all other areas of my life, but have completely rolled over for the wrong guys. So practicing new behaviors with my husband has been challenging, given that he was raised in a patriarchical household.

That being said, I sometimes feel like I’m a totally different person when I’m in couples counseling. I often acquiesce and don’t feel as confident in expressing myself. I guess it makes sense, since my husband and I have walked on eggshells for so long. But like I mentioned, I also think our therapist is painfully slow so we both tend to not say too much. Plus, I don’t think he has good time management skills, where we often tackle conflict in the last 5 minutes of the session and we both walk out frustrated.

My own therapist is great. My husband really likes his too. I’m sure we’d both rather spend two hours in individual counseling instead of that one hour together.


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## LoveAddict

wilson said:


> Once you start to enjoy each other's company again, it'll be a lot easier to take it to the next level. But that would depend on both of you willingly taking sex off the table for the moment without developing resentment.


I have been trying to suggest this. We never had a solid foundation to start with. I told him I wanted us to become friends. He said he would consider it. But he said he needs sex, and that he wants to make every opportunity for it to be with me. If I don’t capitalize on those opportunities, he said he would go outside the marriage.

To clarify an earlier question, he’s withheld it from me. I always initiated and was rejected, so I stopped trying. In hindsight, and based on something he recently said, I think he knew I was validated through sex and purposely denied me of it. I have not confronted him with this, just a theory. It’s just so mind boggling that he now is giving me ultimatums. Even more mind boggling that he wants to have sex with me after so many years of not.

We are quite damaged. My heart breaks into a million pieces when I think about what we could have salvaged.


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## aine

Please do not have sex with him until you are ready.
If you still have resentment, unless and until it is dealt with, having sex too soon is not good for either of you.

Discuss this with him. It sounds like he has to earn your trust again. If he was the one who turned it off, that damage was done over a long period of time, so he needs to be aware than an equal period of time if not longer needs to be given to restoring the relationship to a place where sex is possible. 
It may be little more than a physical release for him but it means so much more to you with all the triggers and resentments that have been built up. Be open and honest, it looks like you are on the right track but do not blow up your efforts by being dishonest now and just grinning and bearing it.
That is not fair to him and dishonesty is not the way to go. You can explain how you are feeling. Also consider a sex therapist to help you guys through.


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## personofinterest

"To clarify an earlier question, he’s withheld it from me. I always initiated and was rejected, so I stopped trying. In hindsight, and based on something he recently said, I think he knew I was validated through sex and purposely denied me of it. I have not confronted him with this, just a theory. It’s just so mind boggling that he now is giving me ultimatums. Even more mind boggling that he wants to have sex with me after so many years of not."

I copied and pasted the above for 2 reasons. The 1st reason is to highlight it for the posters who will come on to this thread, see a wife who doesn't want to have sex Kama and barrage you out of habit. This is not the typical cold woman thread. And I think it's good for various people to understand the at

2nd, I was in a sexless marriage as well. My husband was the one who with Hild sex from me. And I use the word with held because that is exactly what it was. Then, when he knew I was absolutely leaving, suddenly he was intrested in sex again. I relented 1 time and literally felt as if I was going to throw up or punch him in the face lol. To have waited until I was out the door to throw me a bone, no pun intended, was insulting to me. And I had enough experience to know that once the crisis had passed, sex would dwindle again

I am not sure what to advise you With regard to your marriage over all. I will say that if your entire marriage has been unhappy, if he has with held intimacy as a rule, if he has anger issues, and if you are not 100% sure that he is going to turn around 180ﾟ, don't trap yourself just because you don't want to be the bed guy. I knew when I left I would be the bed guy. It was worth it.


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## In Absentia

LoveAddict said:


> I’m scared of his anger, and while he has come to temper it significantly with all the work he’s done in therapy, I’m still wired to respond to his anger. And I think I’m just biting the bullet to not experience his wrath, but also, selfishly, to feel like I can’t be blamed for the failure of the marriage, if it comes to that.



My wife says that of me. She can't get over my former anger (for our sex life) and, although I haven't been "angry" for over 10 years, she still doesn't trust me. I don't think she ever will. So, no sex, no intimacy, no relationship, we are doomed...


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## personofinterest

In Absentia said:


> LoveAddict said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m scared of his anger, and while he has come to temper it significantly with all the work he’s done in therapy, I’m still wired to respond to his anger. And I think I’m just biting the bullet to not experience his wrath, but also, selfishly, to feel like I can’t be blamed for the failure of the marriage, if it comes to that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife says that of me. She can't get over my former anger (for our sex life) and, although I haven't been "angry" for over 10 years, she still doesn't trust me. I don't think she ever will. So, no sex, no intimacy, no relationship, we are doomed...
Click to expand...

 Just like an affair, sometimes the devastation other things causes is just too great to get over. Maybe the anger that she endured for so long just did so much damage that she can't recover from it. If that's the case, assigning the blame to hervard your lack of sex is probably not entirely accurate.


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## arbitrator

In Absentia said:


> *My wife says that of me. She can't get over my former anger (for our sex life) and, although I haven't been "angry" for over 10 years, she still doesn't trust me. I don't think she ever will. So, no sex, no intimacy, no relationship, we are doomed...*


*You don't deserve this unnatural sadness!

Get out and find the love that you certainly deserve!*


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## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> Just like an affair, sometimes the devastation other things causes is just too great to get over. Maybe the anger that she endured for so long just did so much damage that she can't recover from it. If that's the case, assigning the blame to hervard your lack of sex is probably not entirely accurate.


Not the derail the thread... but she has her problems. Upbringing, total lack of communication, self-image. She endured my anger for a few months, at the peak of our crisis... I'm not making excuses, but the lack of sex started _well before_ my anger. It was my way of reacting to the problem and the wrong way too. I'm aware of this. After all these years, I thought she might be able to forget, but obviously not. So, if the OP can't get over the fear, I would say she needs to regain the trust. It might be difficult. Also, I think that her husband wanting sex as a condition is wrong. They need to rebuild their friendship first.


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## In Absentia

arbitrator said:


> *You don't deserve this unnatural sadness!
> 
> Get out and find the love that you certainly deserve!*



That's what I will do. Still, my wife has told me things I will never forget and that have made rekindling our marriage totally impossible. I guess I deserve it.


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## personofinterest

In Absentia said:


> Not the derail the thread... but she has her problems. Upbringing, total lack of communication, self-image. She endured my anger for a few months, at the peak of our crisis... I'm not making excuses, but the lack of sex started _well before_ my anger. It was my way of reacting to the problem and the wrong way too. I'm aware of this. After all these years, I thought she might be able to forget, but obviously not. So, if the OP can't get over the fear, I would say she needs to regain the trust. It might be difficult. Also, I think that her husband wanting sex as a condition is wrong. They need to rebuild their friendship first.


Ah, so in your case, SHE was withholding, and you were angry for a few months.

*In THIS case with THIS OP....*

HE was withholding for years, AND he had consistent anger problems, and now that she is ready to leave, he suddenly wants sex and wants it NOW.

I'm assuming even the men here can see the difference...


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## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> I'm assuming even the men here can see the difference...


Yes, I can... :smile2: But I was talking about anger in general. Having lived through it, from what my wife told me afterwards, it can very difficult to overcome. I wasn't angry all the time and only in specific circumstances (it was my penis talking), so I can understand that living with a person who has regular anger bursts can be a point of no return.


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## BigToe

LoveAddict said:


> I have been trying to suggest this. We never had a solid foundation to start with. I told him I wanted us to become friends. He said he would consider it. But he said he needs sex, and that he wants to make every opportunity for it to be with me. If I don’t capitalize on those opportunities, he said he would go outside the marriage.


That's nice, as in nice and cozy put another log on the fireplace, but backwards and not realistic. With all the hurt and anger between the two of you it is going to take a long time to build a friendship. Holding off on intimacy in the hopes of developing friendship first doesn't seem to be a good plan to me. Yes, he may have withheld in the past, BUT, you say you want to try to rebuild the marriage. You can't do that without intimacy. If he wants it now; give.

However, his comment illustrates he still has work to do on his controlling ways. Did you confront him about his comment of going outside the marriage. You should probably confront that comment in counseling as well. It's a bluff in my opinion, but a "controlling" bluff that needs to cease. To me, this is a bigger obstacle than not being friends.

If you are serious about saving the marriage you are going to have to accept intimacy as part of it. Take one for the team and try it with open mind. You said it's a last ditch effort, so give 100% in case it really doesn't work out. At least then you can feel good that YOU did everything you could to make it work.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

OP,

If the marriage has been awful the whole time making positive futures for you both impossible and/or you've already made your mind up to divorce no matter if he's perfect in all ways from here on out - go ahead and tell H now. 
So no more time and money is lost and beginning of healing for both of you can get started.

You're just prolonging his (and your) agony, or you're just using him emotionally and financially.

One or the other, which are you doing? That choice is on you. Does that damage your high moral ground?

If you truly believe there's a chance to reconcile by all means continue with counseling. Myself, I'm for marriages working out if both SOs love, respect, and desire each other. Up to the time one SO has already decided to D. 

The it's time for that spouse to tell the other. Mutual respect for the love once shared, and all that.

Any chance of reconciliation will include sleeping together regularly. If you feel that can never happen pls put on your adult pants and tell him. 

It will only help you both if this is the case. The pain and grieving process (that you both will feel) can start, and the healing process will get closer.

He may be relieved. He may not. But initially there will be degrees of pain by both. If you don't help your situation by making some decisions here only more hurtful fighting will start. 
And you'll D anyway, only now with boatloads more bitterness. 

Make no mistake about that. 

If you truly believe by good communication and spending time together you and he will get back to a great place then prepare to sleep with him or as his sense of finality will harden too, and he'll make all these decisions for you and ask you to leave first. 

And have every right to.

Is that your hope? Sorry for the blunt question. Are you trying to get him to say quit first? Once he feels all is hopeless his attitude will likely change.

Sometimes a non-threatening conversation like a forum is the best place to hear tough questions. 

Lord knows none of this is easy.


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## She'sStillGotIt

LoveAddict said:


> To be honest, I think I am resigned to having sex because I don’t want him to blame me for the failure of the marriage.


Well, I'll say it.

So this jerk thought NOTHING of avoiding you physically like the *plague* your entire marriage, except for those times he bit the bullet and took one for the team when you needed to get pregnant.

And for all those 10 years of marriage, he didn't give a rat's ASS about how his nasty attitude and complete inability to be intimate with you made *you* feel. Because if he DID give a rat's ass about how it made you feel, he would have taken the initiative to fix the problem any way he could, but he didn't. 

Until now. Suddenly, Casanova is ALL about you two getting down and dirty between the sheets. Suddenly, he's ALL for it. 

So let's recap. For around 10 years, the guy has avoided touching you and wanted *nothing* to do with you (except when he had to in order to get you pregnant). And from what you wrote, those few times were awkward at best. 

So why all of a sudden is he just brimming over with passion _now_? It's only because he's a coward and is afraid of being on his own, not because he's got a new-found passion for you. And even _more_ unbelievably, after 10 years of him not giving a damn about your feelings, you're actually thinking that *YOU* have try to go along with it. Who CARES if he tries to blame you for the marriage failing? You know exactly who failed miserably in this marriage. 

Come _on_.


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## Mr.Married

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Well, I'll say it.
> 
> So this jerk thought NOTHING of avoiding you physically like the *plague* your entire marriage, except for those times he bit the bullet and took one for the team when you needed to get pregnant.
> 
> And for all those 10 years of marriage, he didn't give a rat's ASS about how his nasty attitude and complete inability to be intimate with you made *you* feel. Because if he DID give a rat's ass about how it made you feel, he would have taken the initiative to fix the problem any way he could, but he didn't.
> 
> Until now. Suddenly, Casanova is ALL about you two getting down and dirty between the sheets. Suddenly, he's ALL for it.
> 
> So let's recap. For around 10 years, the guy has avoided touching you and wanted *nothing* to do with you (except when he had to in order to get you pregnant). And from what you wrote, those few times were awkward at best.
> 
> So why all of a sudden is he just brimming over with passion _now_? It's only because he's a coward and is afraid of being on his own, not because he's got a new-found passion for you. And even _more_ unbelievably, after 10 years of him not giving a damn about your feelings, you're actually thinking that *YOU* have try to go along with it. Who CARES if he tries to blame you for the marriage failing? You know exactly who failed miserably in this marriage.
> 
> Come _on_.



You remind me of glazed doughnuts ...... Always sugar coated :grin2:


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## TJW

In Absentia said:


> my wife has told me things I will never forget and that have made rekindling our marriage totally impossible. I guess I deserve it.


I began by believing I deserved it for being a "geek" and "not the kind of man women go for". Later, I learned that this was HER problem and HER issues which had nothing to do with me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

OP,

From an excerpt in your post;

"We have done a tremendous amount of work towards healing our marriage (to which we each contributed in severe ways to its demise) but we believe there is hope for us."

I hope it works out if you want it to.

But that does indeed include regular sex. If that can never happen to a mutually happy degree then things are already over.

And all this is moot.

I wish you well, courage and strength to you.


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## WorkingWife

You sound like a 100% perfect candidate for marriage builders. (www.marriagebuilders.com) Everything you say reminds me of things I learned on that site -- your husband's anger, your recoiling from it, not wanting sex, unwittingly doing things that hurt each other.

I strongly encourage you to go read on that site. Here are the basic concepts: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

Some things that might be particularly good would be the book "Love Busters" (from that site) because it helps you see and correct the destructive things we instinctively do in a relationship which you both have probably done plenty of. Here's a summary: https://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

They also talk about women developing a sexual aversion to their husbands (yeah, anger will do that...) Those would be good to read but you're probably aren't ready for those yet: 

Overcome Sexual Aversion: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html
How can men get more sex: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

I agree with those who say to take it slow. What is you tell your husband you simply are not ready for sex yet but you want more intimacy and can you set a time line - a month, 6 months, whatever - wherein you two will be as affectionate as possible with each other - hugging, kissing, cuddling - but without it becoming sexual. If you know he's not going to turn a kiss or cuddle sexual hopefully you can relax and enjoy it whereas if you think he's going to move toward sex, you're going to be tense. If he withheld sex originally he should be able to go without for awhile. Make sure he understands you are trying to heal so you can have a wonderful sex life, you are not trying to punish him for past sins. But until you feel emotionally safe with him -- sex is going to be almost intolerable to you.

I disagree with those who say if you are not attracted to him anymore the marriage is over. If you both really do want the marriage to work, I think you can get the love back - or get it if it never was there - if you're both motivated to become better spouses for each other.










LoveAddict said:


> Wow, thank you everyone, for you thoughtful words. While I still feel uncertain about reviving our sex life, I feel a little less crazy.
> 
> To answer one recurring question, I do enjoy sex in general. I also think I have a tricky relationship with it. I’m an extremely sexual person, but know that it has been my primary form of validation since I was a teenager (I’m 43 now!). Hence, the screen name. Since having kids, I have poured myself into them and pushed my need for intimacy to the back burner. It’s easy when you’re so tired. But nonetheless, with the lack of sex for so many years, I have had to ...uh ... take matters into my own hands.
> 
> My husband and I were classically trained in non-communication. The kind where if you don’t talk about a problem, then of course it would simply go away. We entered our relationship this way, and nurtured it with this mindset. We discarded each other as humans, and we both behaved in ways that deeply hurt the other. My honest opinion is that we are not ready to rekindle our sex life. I think we are still holding onto a lot of resentment. Today, we fought, and I realized that while we communicate more (meaning we actually talk to each other), our words are still coming from a place of needing to be heard. So, while my initial feeling indicates that I’m not sexually attracted to my husband any more, there’s a high possibility that I’m just still angry.
> 
> We individually are growing in very healthy ways, especially in addressing abandonment issues, and that has helped our communication a bit, but we’re still not working together to save the marriage. It feels more like every person for themselves. Our couples’ counselor is a bit slow with us, in my opinion. He’s trying to undo every little hurt we experience, so it feels like more resentment is actually building up in the process. We are going to search for a new therapist.
> 
> We only just started kissing again about two weeks ago. He touches me intimately, and up to a certain point, it’s ok. Once it definitely crosses over to things you only do with a lover, that’s when it becomes unbearable. To be honest, I think I am resigned to having sex because I don’t want him to blame me for the failure of the marriage. We have talked about giving it everything we’ve got, which includes physical intimacy, but we are on very different timelines for this. It feels like a Mars and Venus problem. I’m scared of his anger, and while he has come to temper it significantly with all the work he’s done in therapy, I’m still wired to respond to his anger. And I think I’m just biting the bullet to not experience his wrath, but also, selfishly, to feel like I can’t be blamed for the failure of the marriage, if it comes to that.
> 
> I don’t know. I frequently suspect that both of us are simply too scared to leave, especially because of the kids. While we both saw many signs early in the relationship that indicated we should not be together, the one thing that kept us close was our equal value in family. It was probably the first priority for both of us. I know we have a ton of counseling to get through still, but this is where I’m at now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

LoveAddict said:


> I have been trying to suggest this. We never had a solid foundation to start with. I told him I wanted us to become friends. He said he would consider it. * But he said he needs sex, and that he wants to make every opportunity for it to be with me. If I don’t capitalize on those opportunities, he said he would go outside the marriage.*



Ok so reality check. THIS COMMENT RIGHT HERE tells you all you need to know. While I commend your valiant efforts to revive this dead horse, your husband's complete lack of concern for how you feel and telling you that he will screw someone else if you dont, proves that your marriage is basically done. No man should ever say this to his wife. (or vice versa...) What a jerk, seriously. 

I can relate to how you are feeling. You need to come to terms with the fact that you DONT desire your husband, and based on things you have said about him so far, I honestly dont blame you. I went through something similar with my first husband, your H sounds a lot like mine was... allow me to share...

I decided a few months after our daughter was born that I was never having sex with my (now ex) husband again. It wasnt really a conscious thing, it was just this overwhelming feeling that hit me. My ex had anger issues. He drank too much too often. He was letting his hygiene go. He basically got to the point that I was repulsed by him. He treated me like nothing. I was a complete non thought, non priority to him, we lived separate lives under the same roof. There was ZERO affection from him, he even got annoyed when I would ask for a hug hello when he came home from work. He ignored me. He put NO effort towards me at all. Then would approach me out of the blue for sex, and the sex got to the point where it was just awful. No fun at all, no intimacy or passion, and it was ALL about him. So my resentment built up until I came to that conclusion that I wasnt doing it any more. I was so unhappy with everything, I was reading books about whether to stay or go, and I asked about us going to counseling, and was told that there was nothing going on that was THAT BAD, and also that HE didnt have a problem, so maybe I should be the one to go get help. He was NEVER at fault for anything, and dont you dare try and tell him otherwise. I told him that I wasnt happy, that maybe I should leave, and as usual, my feelings just didnt even blip on his radar. 

I have never regretted my divorce for one moment. 

I admire your efforts. Do what you feel you need to so that you know you did everything you could. I just wanted to share so that you were aware others have been there.


----------



## In Absentia

I don't understand why he wants sex all of a sudden, when he withheld sex in the past. I guess it was to punish you? Now you are rebuilding and he doesn't need to punish you anymore... he's found his erection again... :scratchhead:


----------



## In Absentia

TJW said:


> I began by believing I deserved it for being a "geek" and "not the kind of man women go for". Later, I learned that this was HER problem and HER issues which had nothing to do with me.


In my case, she quotes menopause, her upbringing and empty nest syndrome for not wanting sex. But it's not true. I know. She has no libido, she is on meds and she can do without it (and me) and I have traumatised her with my anger... this is what she is really thinking...


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> That's what I will do. Still, my wife has told me things I will never forget and that have made rekindling our marriage totally impossible. I guess I deserve it.


Not to thread jack, but no, as many have said, you do not deserve this. You never did and you did not deserve your sexless marriage either, so you need to let this crap go. 

If you want to beat yourself up, ok, then you were stupid and inexperienced and moronic for staying in the marriage in the first place. 

That, if you really need something to martyr yourself over, then there are some things to use for that. 

It is quite possible that your wife NEVER Loved you, WAS Never attracted to you, and she may not even know how to love...

Will your thinking ever change for the better... I wonder....


----------



## In Absentia

We are having teenager problems right now (as a problem with the teenager), but I'm slowly detaching, don't worry. There's nothing left.


----------



## personofinterest

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP,
> 
> If the marriage has been awful the whole time making positive futures for you both impossible and/or you've already made your mind up to divorce no matter if he's perfect in all ways from here on out - go ahead and tell H now.
> So no more time and money is lost and beginning of healing for both of you can get started.
> 
> You're just prolonging his (and your) agony, or you're just using him emotionally and financially.
> 
> One or the other, which are you doing? That choice is on you. Does that damage your high moral ground?
> 
> If you truly believe there's a chance to reconcile by all means continue with counseling. Myself, I'm for marriages working out if both SOs love, respect, and desire each other. Up to the time one SO has already decided to D.
> 
> The it's time for that spouse to tell the other. Mutual respect for the love once shared, and all that.
> 
> Any chance of reconciliation will include sleeping together regularly. If you feel that can never happen pls put on your adult pants and tell him.
> 
> It will only help you both if this is the case. The pain and grieving process (that you both will feel) can start, and the healing process will get closer.
> 
> He may be relieved. He may not. But initially there will be degrees of pain by both. If you don't help your situation by making some decisions here only more hurtful fighting will start.
> And you'll D anyway, only now with boatloads more bitterness.
> 
> Make no mistake about that.
> 
> If you truly believe by good communication and spending time together you and he will get back to a great place then prepare to sleep with him or as his sense of finality will harden too, and he'll make all these decisions for you and ask you to leave first.
> 
> And have every right to.
> 
> Is that your hope? Sorry for the blunt question. Are you trying to get him to say quit first? Once he feels all is hopeless his attitude will likely change.
> 
> Sometimes a non-threatening conversation like a forum is the best place to hear tough questions.
> 
> Lord knows none of this is easy.


This is what I was talking about.....


----------



## personofinterest

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Well, I'll say it.
> 
> So this jerk thought NOTHING of avoiding you physically like the *plague* your entire marriage, except for those times he bit the bullet and took one for the team when you needed to get pregnant.
> 
> And for all those 10 years of marriage, he didn't give a rat's ASS about how his nasty attitude and complete inability to be intimate with you made *you* feel. Because if he DID give a rat's ass about how it made you feel, he would have taken the initiative to fix the problem any way he could, but he didn't.
> 
> Until now. Suddenly, Casanova is ALL about you two getting down and dirty between the sheets. Suddenly, he's ALL for it.
> 
> So let's recap. For around 10 years, the guy has avoided touching you and wanted *nothing* to do with you (except when he had to in order to get you pregnant). And from what you wrote, those few times were awkward at best.
> 
> So why all of a sudden is he just brimming over with passion _now_? It's only because he's a coward and is afraid of being on his own, not because he's got a new-found passion for you. And even _more_ unbelievably, after 10 years of him not giving a damn about your feelings, you're actually thinking that *YOU* have try to go along with it. Who CARES if he tries to blame you for the marriage failing? You know exactly who failed miserably in this marriage.
> 
> Come _on_.


THANK YOU

This is almost as bad as a porn thread with the absolute chosen blindness and denial in favor of the husband.


----------



## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> THANK YOU
> 
> This is almost as bad as a porn thread with the absolute chosen blindness and denial in favor of the husband.


I haven't seen anybody in favour of the husband here...


----------



## personofinterest

In Absentia said:


> I haven't seen anybody in favour of the husband here...





> Holding off on intimacy in the hopes of developing friendship first doesn't seem to be a good plan to me. Yes, he may have withheld in the past, BUT, you say you want to try to rebuild the marriage. You can't do that without intimacy. *If he wants it now; give.*
> 
> If you are serious about saving the marriage you are going to have to accept intimacy as part of it. _*Take one for the team*_ and try it with open mind.
> 
> *You're just prolonging his (and your) agony, or you're just using him emotionally and financially.
> 
> One or the other, which are you doing? That choice is on you. Does that damage your high moral ground?*
> 
> Any chance of reconciliation will include sleeping together regularly. *If you feel that can never happen pls put on your adult pants and tell him. *
> 
> If you truly believe by good communication and spending time together you and he will get back to a great place then *prepare to sleep with him or as his sense of finality will harden* too, and he'll make all these decisions for you and ask you to leave first.
> 
> *And have every right to.*
> 
> Is that your hope? Sorry for the blunt question. *Are you trying to get him to say quit first?* Once he feels all is hopeless his attitude will likely change.


Um....yeah


----------



## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> Um....yeah


yes, but Ragnar's post is not in favour of the husband... he is trying to understand and asking questions... in fact, he is telling her to leave if her heart is not in it (i.e. having to sleep with her husband)... you are being selective in your quotes...


----------



## Openminded

He's ignored you sexually for years and suddenly he wants sex now or he's considering cheating? What's with that?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

In Absentia said:


> yes, but Ragnar's post is not in favour of the husband... he is trying to understand and asking questions... in fact, he is telling her to leave if her heart is not in it (i.e. having to sleep with her husband)... you are being selective in your quotes...


Thank you. My exact intent.

😁


----------



## Elizabeth001

Openminded said:


> He's ignored you sexually for years and suddenly he wants sex now or he's considering cheating? What's with that?




Maybe his side piece broke up with him :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

In Absentia said:


> I don't understand why he wants sex all of a sudden, when he withheld sex in the past. I guess it was to punish you? Now you are rebuilding and he doesn't need to punish you anymore... he's found his erection again... :scratchhead:


Well, I guess it's a good old fashioned Christmas miracle, ain't it? Ten or more years of acting like she's a leper, and then suddenly demanding sex and telling her he 'needs it' or he'll 'get it elsewhere.'


Whose he trying to kid? I'm beginning to think the OP has been his 'beard' all these years.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

In Absentia said:


> I don't understand why he wants sex all of a sudden, when he withheld sex in the past. I guess it was to punish you? Now you are rebuilding and he doesn't need to punish you anymore... he's found his erection again...


Well, I guess it's a good old fashioned Christmas miracle, ain't it? Ten or more years of acting like she's a leper, and then suddenly demanding sex and telling her he 'needs it' or he'll 'get it elsewhere.'


Whose he trying to kid? I'm beginning to think the OP has been his 'beard' all these years.


----------



## wilson

LA, I was wondering if you could consider a few possibilities of how this all might work out and think about what the realistic future would be for you both and your kids. Like, if you stayed together, what are some likely ways it would work out? If you break up, what will that be like? I'm sure your emotions are all over the place, but try to think what paths the future would take knowing who you and your husband are. I know we all hope it will workout with a storybook ending, but sometimes the reality of who we are gets in the way.


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingWife said:


> You sound like a 100% perfect candidate for marriage builders. (www.marriagebuilders.com) Everything you say reminds me of things I learned on that site -- your husband's anger, your recoiling from it, not wanting sex, unwittingly doing things that hurt each other.
> 
> I strongly encourage you to go read on that site. Here are the basic concepts: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html
> 
> Some things that might be particularly good would be the book "Love Busters" (from that site) because it helps you see and correct the destructive things we instinctively do in a relationship which you both have probably done plenty of. Here's a summary: https://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html
> 
> They also talk about women developing a sexual aversion to their husbands (yeah, anger will do that...) Those would be good to read but you're probably aren't ready for those yet:
> 
> Overcome Sexual Aversion: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html
> How can men get more sex: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html
> 
> I agree with those who say to take it slow. What is you tell your husband you simply are not ready for sex yet but you want more intimacy and can you set a time line - a month, 6 months, whatever - wherein you two will be as affectionate as possible with each other - hugging, kissing, cuddling - but without it becoming sexual. If you know he's not going to turn a kiss or cuddle sexual hopefully you can relax and enjoy it whereas if you think he's going to move toward sex, you're going to be tense. If he withheld sex originally he should be able to go without for awhile. Make sure he understands you are trying to heal so you can have a wonderful sex life, you are not trying to punish him for past sins. But until you feel emotionally safe with him -- sex is going to be almost intolerable to you.
> 
> I disagree with those who say if you are not attracted to him anymore the marriage is over. If you both really do want the marriage to work, I think you can get the love back - or get it if it never was there - if you're both motivated to become better spouses for each other.


:iagree: Quoted to emphasize

You two can rebuild your marriage into a healthy one ... and eventually your desire for sex could return. But you two have to rebuild your marriage first. You feel the way you do because the bond between you is broken due to lack of both non-sexual intimacy and sexual intimacy. And because you rightly do not trust him.

Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them in that order, do the work that they lay out. And then ask him to read them with you and the two of you do the work together. 

If he is willing to do and do the hard work to permanently change himself in your marriage, there is a chance that your desire for sex with him will return and your marriage will be a good, passionate one. 

If you do this, give it 6 months. If things are not significantly better, it's time to file for divorce.

If he refuses to do the work laid out in the books and does not change, your marriage is over.

One thing to be careful of is that very often in these sorts of situations, he'll go through the motions to keep you, but once he thinks you will stay he will go back to his old says.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Sorry to be the negative Nelly, but once you find yourself disgusted by your H, there is no recovery. I know that feeling first hand. Add to that, her H has anger and control issues... going to make it pretty much impossible to feel safe getting close enough emotionally to even try.


----------



## LoveAddict

@personofinterest, thank you for understanding my perspective and shedding light to the fact that men will close up shop in a marriage too. I’d been so confused as to why he was doing this, because hey, don’t all men just want sex? I was operating on those same gerneralizations as those who think it’s always the wife who holds out. My husband only recently said he had a dark secret from his past, alluding to having been molested as a child. He won’t tell me the story, but it’s conveniently surfacing now. I’m not spending any energy getting it out of him, because if it’s a lie and he’s not telling me, then all the more to point at his manipulating ways. But if it’s true, then I want to respect his need for secrecy and maybe one day he’ll tell me, but more importantly, there could possibly be some deep rooted reason for his behavior. Given that our marriage turned into a parent-child relationship, I have wondered if his mom or an aunt did something to him, though I find that about 99.9% unlikely. Whatever it is, he had his reasons.

Also, if you don’t mind me addressing someone else’s comment here (and I won’t quote to make such a big deal of it) but I make about 150% more than what my husband brings home, so no, I’m not using him financially. I know it was just one of a few hypotheses, but that one really got me! Sorry, just like wanting sex, women can have really well-paying jobs too.


----------



## LoveAddict

In Absentia said:


> That's what I will do. Still, my wife has told me things I will never forget and that have made rekindling our marriage totally impossible. I guess I deserve it.


 @In Absentia, if I’m reading this correctly, I’d like to tell you that you DON’T deserve it. You and your wife both deserve happiness, if you would allow yourselves to have it, either in or out of this marriage. 

I think one of the reasons I’m so torn is that I have finally let go of my own anger. I’ve stopped blaming my husband for our marriage falling apart, and instead, see him as human. And I’ve also stopped seeing him as an extension of myself, and have relieved myself of the responsibility to change him. The fact that he finally sought out his own therapist (sure, it could have been in response to me wanting to leave) is a bit unbelieavable. He was one of those who was adamantly against it, because it’s “for the weak-minded.” He’s been in therapy for about 6 months now and is really thriving. He acknowledges he failed as a husband and father, and blamed himself for a lot of things. But with therapy, he’s beginning to forgive himself and has actually become a better dad (and sometimes husband 😉 )

I’m not afraid of this marriage ending. I’m not that afraid of him blaming me if that were to happen, but I do fear that I will forever blame myself. And that’s the work I, and everyone who feels responsibility to the demise of their marriage, needs to do. 

That being said, I’d kindly ask you to consider the fact that you have applied your standards onto your wife. You said you weren’t that angry, which may have been true in your eyes, but I believe your wife has the right to determine how much it affected her. My mother was abusive towards me. I’m sure that’s why I ended up marrying someone’s like her. Recently, I’ve been reconsidering if I’ve exaggerated my husband’s anger. (Ftr, I don’t think I have.) But what I’ve realized is that it’s going to exponentially harder for me to not be fearful when I’ve been managing fear since I was a child. 

In this reconciliation process, my husband has become keenly aware of thelevel of my fear. When he expresses anger towards me, he sometimes turns my fears into a joke. No, it’s not nice. But, if he can’t truly sympathize and allow me to set my own threshold for fear, then that’s another reason for me to leave.

I wish you well in your next steps and hope you do not take offense to some of my comments.


----------



## LoveAddict

wilson said:


> LA, I was wondering if you could consider a few possibilities of how this all might work out and think about what the realistic future would be for you both and your kids. Like, if you stayed together, what are some likely ways it would work out? If you break up, what will that be like? I'm sure your emotions are all over the place, but try to think what paths the future would take knowing who you and your husband are. I know we all hope it will workout with a storybook ending, but sometimes the reality of who we are gets in the way.


Believe me, we’ve both considered every possibility. We know that the version of the marriage we reconcile will probably not be the kind old Disney movies are made of, so both of us are giving serious thought to whether or not we could live with that. The kids are our biggest concern. Logically we know they’ll be fine, but it’s impossible to feel in our hearts that separating would also be best for them. 

Last night, I somewhat lightheartedly suggested to my husband that we consider “euthanizing the marriage.” With all the work we’ve been doing individually and somewhat collectively to sort out our marriage, could we possibly be at a point where we decide it’s the most humane thing to do? So it’s still up for further discussion. But then I realized that we are both extremely competitive people and that we are not quitting this marriage simply on principle! (Just kidding...sort of!)


----------



## In Absentia

LoveAddict said:


> @In Absentia, if I’m reading this correctly, I’d like to tell you that you DON’T deserve it. You and your wife both deserve happiness, if you would allow yourselves to have it, either in or out of this marriage.
> 
> I think one of the reasons I’m so torn is that I have finally let go of my own anger. I’ve stopped blaming my husband for our marriage falling apart, and instead, see him as human. And I’ve also stopped seeing him as an extension of myself, and have relieved myself of the responsibility to change him. The fact that he finally sought out his own therapist (sure, it could have been in response to me wanting to leave) is a bit unbelieavable. He was one of those who was adamantly against it, because it’s “for the weak-minded.” He’s been in therapy for about 6 months now and is really thriving. He acknowledges he failed as a husband and father, and blamed himself for a lot of things. But with therapy, he’s beginning to forgive himself and has actually become a better dad (and sometimes husband 😉 )
> 
> I’m not afraid of this marriage ending. I’m not that afraid of him blaming me if that were to happen, but I do fear that I will forever blame myself. And that’s the work I, and everyone who feels responsibility to the demise of their marriage, needs to do.
> 
> That being said, I’d kindly ask you to consider the fact that you have applied your standards onto your wife. You said you weren’t that angry, which may have been true in your eyes, but I believe your wife has the right to determine how much it affected her. My mother was abusive towards me. I’m sure that’s why I ended up marrying someone’s like her. Recently, I’ve been reconsidering if I’ve exaggerated my husband’s anger. (Ftr, I don’t think I have.) But what I’ve realized is that it’s going to exponentially harder for me to not be fearful when I’ve been managing fear since I was a child.
> 
> In this reconciliation process, my husband has become keenly aware of thelevel of my fear. When he expresses anger towards me, he sometimes turns my fears into a joke. No, it’s not nice. But, if he can’t truly sympathize and allow me to set my own threshold for fear, then that’s another reason for me to leave.
> 
> I wish you well in your next steps and hope you do not take offense to some of my comments.



Regarding the anger... that stems from my upbringing, I guess. Where I'm from (I'm not from the UK originally), we get rather agitated about things and we discuss and argue a lot, and we get angry. It's a normal process and I found it rather cathartic when I was younger because you can let the steam off and say stuff and then make up. After 5 minutes, I have forgotten about it. But my wife was/is completely the opposite and I can see I have done some damage. Even when I said I didn't mean it, she took it very personally. I underestimated that. I thought our love and relationship were stronger than that, but I was wrong. I understand why after 10 years she is still hurt. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it now.


----------



## wilson

LoveAddict said:


> Believe me, we’ve both considered every possibility. We know that the version of the marriage we reconcile will probably not be the kind old Disney movies are made of, so both of us are giving serious thought to whether or not we could live with that. The kids are our biggest concern. Logically we know they’ll be fine, but it’s impossible to feel in our hearts that separating would also be best for them.
> 
> Last night, I somewhat lightheartedly suggested to my husband that we consider “euthanizing the marriage.” With all the work we’ve been doing individually and somewhat collectively to sort out our marriage, could we possibly be at a point where we decide it’s the most humane thing to do? So it’s still up for further discussion. But then I realized that we are both extremely competitive people and that we are not quitting this marriage simply on principle! (Just kidding...sort of!)


I'm glad to hear you're considering all options. One thing I would like to bring up is that your kids are at an age where the long-term emotional impact of the divorce will be less than at other times. Obviously divorce is hard whenever it happens, but younger kids are more resilient and will likely move on better. Once the kids get to puberty and middle-school age, divorce can often bring about many significant behavioral issues. But once the kids are more like 15-16, then the divorce wouldn't be so bad. It's much better to divorce when the kids are 5 and 7 rather than 10 and 12 (and having lived through an additional 5 years of mom and dad fighting). So like Ele said, have a short-term endpoint of 6 months or something where you decide what you're going to do. 

Based on everything you've written, at this point I do think euthanizing the marriage is the most humane thing. We all hope things will work out, but there are so many difficult challenges in this relationship to overcome. If it's going to happen, you should see significant changes of character which make it abundantly clear that it could work out. But if instead the months ahead are filled with arguing and sniping, that's probably the reality of the situation coming through.


----------



## oldshirt

You realize you could go to a bar this evening and pick out the best looking guy you are attracted to and be having hot, sweaty, monkey sex within an hour or so with someone who actually wants to be with you and is actually willing to give it his all right??

Now I'm certainly not saying that you should actually do that, but what I am saying is assuming you are not 350 lbs and smell like a dead skunk in the sun, there is an endless supply of men that would want to be with you and who you would find hot and desirable and the chemistry would just naturally flow. 

I'm not saying that you should actually go to a bar and hook up with someone at the moment, but if you did, the attraction and desire would be natural and would flow even if it was just for one night. 

But what you are talking about here with your H is gut-wrenching and sick. It hurts to even read it. I can't believe people are actually suggesting books and websites and intimate kissing etc to try to resurrect this long-dead and decayed sham of a marriage. 

This was never meant to be. If you can count on two hands the number of times you've had sex and especially the awkward and uncomfortable acts of conception, this is perverse and a sin against nature. It doesn't sound like you two should have even been coworkers in the kitchen of McDonalds let alone spouses. 

How can you go from being nauseous at the thought of sex with your H to having an actual healthy and happy marital love life???? 

With years and tens of thousands of dollars of therapy and years of doing the hard homework, you may be able to go from almost puking to only being thoroughly disgusted. But going from nauseous to happy, healthy and vigorous?? no way. It's just too far. It's one thing to get from Detroit to Flint. But it's a whole other to get from Detroit to Venus. 

You can spend years and thousands of dollars and end up not puking when you try to have awkward, uncomfortable sex a few times a year. 

Or you can paint your nails, squeeze into that little black cocktail dress that shows a little too much cleavage and put on some uncomfortable but sexy heels and you can have some hot stud that is willing to do back flips and crawl through broken glass to ravage you in one night. 

Do you the dichotomy there?


----------



## personofinterest

Sometimes I think oldshirt is overly graphic, but he really hits the nail on the head.

You spent a decade with an angry man who wouldn't touch you. (And I cannot BELIEVE someone actually asked if it was YOUR fault he wouldn't touch you!!!!) And I really don't care if his anger was FOO oriented "cultural" (that's a new one), or if he felt better five minutes later. He devastated your psyche with his abuse - and yes, it WAS abuse.

And now that he knows he will lose you, he supposedly cares, but yet again, only if you play HIS way.

Yeah yeah yeah, there is an expert whose "method" apparently is foolproof, but this is a long standing problem. Go there, and you'll be advised to ask him to attend anger management, told to separate until he does, blah blah. You are just prolonging the inevitable. Unless you want to spend 25 hours every week alone with him, which I cannot imagine.

You are not the one who destroyed this marriage. Sure, I am certain you were not perfect. I am sure you had your frustrations and missteps. But this is NOT about you not wanting to have sex with your husband. Tjis is absolutely about him detroying your love for him and abusing you and then just expecting you to roll over.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

oldshirt said:


> But what you are talking about here with your H is gut-wrenching and sick. It hurts to even read it. I can't believe people are actually suggesting books and websites and intimate kissing etc to try to resurrect this long-dead and decayed sham of a marriage.
> 
> This was never meant to be. If you can count on two hands the number of times you've had sex and especially the awkward and uncomfortable acts of conception, this is perverse and a sin against nature.
> 
> How can you go from being nauseous at the thought of sex with your H to having an actual healthy and happy marital love life????


YES, THIS! I feel a little better its not just me feeling this....


----------



## oldshirt

LoveAddict said:


> Last night, I somewhat lightheartedly suggested to my husband that we consider “euthanizing the marriage.” With all the work we’ve been doing individually and somewhat collectively to sort out our marriage, could we possibly be at a point where we decide it’s the most humane thing to do?


I think you are on the right track here however euthanasia is to put something terminally ill out of it's suffering. 

I think you are past that. IMHO the marriage is already dead and starting to putrify. The more fitting conclusion is to mourn it, commiserate in it's fond memories (if there are any) and then give it a respectful and dignified funeral and burial. 

Here's how I am differentiating between terminally ill and putrifying. 

I get the impression that you each were just kind of living in your own shell but were surviving ok as just roommates and coparents. You weren't happy or satisfied; but you were each doing your own thing separate of each other and for the most part you were making it through the day. 

Your distress and nausea over sex and angst over the thought of being together is when you started to give serious consideration and possible effort in trying to save marriage and make it work. 

In other words, your nausea is over trying to do mouth to mouth and CPR on a dead and putrifying dead body. It's the resuscitation efforts that making you nauseous and giving you the most angst. 

The time for the euthanasia was probably somewhere around the 4th of 5th date but you chose instead to haul the terminally ill and dying relationship to the altar. It died not too long after that. 

It died years ago but now you are trying to resuscitate it and doing mouth to mouth on it is making you sick. 

We put dogs and cats to sleep to end their suffering. But we bury dead bodies because they are already dead and because as they rot they become a health hazard to everyone around them.


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## WorkingWife

Wow. I think this is a REALLY good post and shows a lot of smart, thoughtful introspection and objectivity. Objectivity is really hard to have when you are one of the main players in the situation. 

I think that with this kind of insight, whether you two stay together or divorce you have a much better life, with much healthier relationships, ahead of you than you have behind you and that is really encouraging and inspirational.

I have found in all relationships that play an important role in your life, being able to step back and see the other person as a human with their own perspective, needs, and set of shortcomings provides a huge sense of relief from feeling disappointed by them. Doesn't mean you are tied to them and must devote your life to them, but you can go about finding what you need from people who are able to give it to you. Compassion and understanding regarding those who are no are much better emotions than bitterness and resentment.




LoveAddict said:


> @In Absentia, if I’m reading this correctly, I’d like to tell you that you DON’T deserve it. You and your wife both deserve happiness, if you would allow yourselves to have it, either in or out of this marriage.
> 
> I think one of the reasons I’m so torn is that I have finally let go of my own anger. *I’ve stopped blaming my husband for our marriage falling apart, and instead, see him as human. And I’ve also stopped seeing him as an extension of myself, and have relieved myself of the responsibility to change him.* The fact that he finally sought out his own therapist (sure, it could have been in response to me wanting to leave) is a bit unbelieavable. He was one of those who was adamantly against it, because it’s “for the weak-minded.” He’s been in therapy for about 6 months now and is really thriving. He acknowledges he failed as a husband and father, and blamed himself for a lot of things. But with therapy, he’s beginning to forgive himself and has actually become a better dad (and sometimes husband 😉 )
> 
> I’m not afraid of this marriage ending. I’m not that afraid of him blaming me if that were to happen, but I do fear that I will forever blame myself. And that’s the work I, and everyone who feels responsibility to the demise of their marriage, needs to do.
> 
> That being said, I’d kindly ask you to consider the fact that you have applied your standards onto your wife. You said you weren’t that angry, which may have been true in your eyes, but I believe your wife has the right to determine how much it affected her. My mother was abusive towards me. I’m sure that’s why I ended up marrying someone’s like her. Recently, I’ve been reconsidering if I’ve exaggerated my husband’s anger. (Ftr, I don’t think I have.) But what I’ve realized is that it’s going to exponentially harder for me to not be fearful when I’ve been managing fear since I was a child.
> 
> In this reconciliation process, my husband has become keenly aware of thelevel of my fear. When he expresses anger towards me, he sometimes turns my fears into a joke. No, it’s not nice. But, if he can’t truly sympathize and allow me to set my own threshold for fear, then that’s another reason for me to leave.
> 
> I wish you well in your next steps and hope you do not take offense to some of my comments.


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## BluesPower

LoveAddict said:


> The fact that he finally sought out his own therapist (sure, it could have been in response to me wanting to leave) is a bit unbelieavable. He was one of those who was adamantly against it, because it’s “for the weak-minded.” He’s been in therapy for about 6 months now and is really thriving. He acknowledges he failed as a husband and father, and blamed himself for a lot of things. But with therapy, he’s beginning to forgive himself and has actually become a better dad (and sometimes husband 😉 )


I just have to jump in here. But I had a couple at lunch...

Does anyone get the irony of him possibly being molested, depriving his wife of sex for years, and thinking that therapy is for the weak minded???? 

I mean I don't even know where to start to unpack that mess. 

How anyone, and yes I am sexist as to say a even a man, thinks it is OK to deprive their partner of sex, I mean, how stupid do you have to be to think you can come back from that?


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## Openminded

It's possble it wasn't a female who molested him.


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## 3Xnocharm

Openminded said:


> It's possble it wasn't a female who molested him.


Its probably not even true.


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## personofinterest

3Xnocharm said:


> Openminded said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's possble it wasn't a female who molested him.
> 
> 
> 
> Its probably not even true.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thinking.


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## LoveAddict

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP,
> 
> From an excerpt in your post;
> 
> "We have done a tremendous amount of work towards healing our marriage (to which we each contributed in severe ways to its demise) but we believe there is hope for us."
> 
> I hope it works out if you want it to.
> 
> But that does indeed include regular sex. If that can never happen to a mutually happy degree then things are already over.
> 
> And all this is moot.
> 
> I wish you well, courage and strength to you.


@Ragnar, I meant to say this earlier, but this was kind of my point in posting my initial thread, so I do understand and appreciate your point of view here. I totally recognize that a healthy marriage includes a sex life to, as you said, a mutually happy degree. I don’t expect to live in limerance for the rest of our lives, but “good enough” is ok by me! It’s taking the initial step in finding out if there is any potential for good enough that has me in knots. But yes, I absolutely agree that we can no longer avoid it.

I can’t find the post for some reason, but someone said on here that yes, I should bite the bullet to find out. Because when I do, then I can at least say that I did everything I could. That’s the place from where my post came from, and I think you understand that. I’m not here to blame my husband for his anger or see if there’s a way I can get him to end the marriage first. This is just one pretty big part of the reconciliation process that’s not sitting well with me right now.


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## LoveAddict

In Absentia said:


> Regarding the anger... that stems from my upbringing, I guess. Where I'm from (I'm not from the UK originally), we get rather agitated about things and we discuss and argue a lot, and we get angry. It's a normal process and I found it rather cathartic when I was younger because you can let the steam off and say stuff and then make up. After 5 minutes, I have forgotten about it. But my wife was/is completely the opposite and I can see I have done some damage. Even when I said I didn't mean it, she took it very personally. I underestimated that. I thought our love and relationship were stronger than that, but I was wrong. I understand why after 10 years she is still hurt. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it now.


I can see that you understand how damaging your anger was for the marriage, but I’m glad you have that insight now. I’m not sure what it is, but there is a sadness about your posts that breaks my heart. I hope you have forgiven yourself and no longer carry so much responsibility for the demise of your marriage. 

I will always advocate for those who feel they have experienced abusive behavior, but the one thing that I wish was so much clearer to me much earlier was that I had a choice not to accept my husband’s anger. But I did for many years and it just allowed me to continue to accept it. Obviously, I’m not saying it’s your wife’s fault, but I also wish for her that she realizes she may have had a choice. I don’t get the impression you chained her to a bed and force fed her abuse, but I do believe that people in our circumstances have the will to stand up for themselves, or to change the responses and behaviors that were instilled in them as children. 

I think I mentioned that my mom had been abusive towards me, which is largely why I accepted it from my husband. Many people stop there and decide this explanation tied to their upbringing is enough. It’s an easy thing to blame, but few choose to change it. I also realized that I was exhibiting some of those behaviors myself and decided that my desire to no longer be an angry person or be tied to one was greater than my desire to save the marriage. I hope you and your wife find peace in or out of your marriage.


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## LoveAddict

oldshirt said:


> With years and tens of thousands of dollars of therapy and years of doing the hard homework, you may be able to go from almost puking to only being thoroughly disgusted. But going from nauseous to happy, healthy and vigorous?? no way. It's just too far. It's one thing to get from Detroit to Flint. But it's a whole other to get from Detroit to Venus.


I have great medical benefits and I spend about four hours a day commuting in my car, so my perspective is a little skewed. But I see your point! 😉

Just curious, are there any hot studs out there who are into a woman in Converse and a baseball cap (I reserve the right to say which team)? Who may also have an interest in helping me raise my children as their own?

I know there’s plenty of sex to be had out there, but between the stilettos and breaking up my family, a test run with the old man doesn’t seem so bad. If only he’d agree to an alternative lifestyle.


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## LoveAddict

oldshirt said:


> [
> 
> In other words, your nausea is over trying to do mouth to mouth and CPR on a dead and putrifying dead body. It's the resuscitation efforts that making you nauseous and giving you the most angst.
> 
> The time for the euthanasia was probably somewhere around the 4th of 5th date but you chose instead to haul the terminally ill and dying relationship to the altar. It died not too long after that.
> 
> It died years ago but now you are trying to resuscitate it and doing mouth to mouth on it is making you sick.
> 
> We put dogs and cats to sleep to end their suffering. But we bury dead bodies because they are already dead and because as they rot they become a health hazard to everyone around them.


Btw, I loved this analogy...and imagery. Especially when I think of myself giving CPR to road kill. But you’re right, it should’ve been a funeral that I suggested. Thank you for the powerful image that is actually quite helpful and disgustingly funny.


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## LoveAddict

@WorkingWife, thank you for the kind words. It has been an incredibly enlightening and liberating journey learning how to maintain compassion, release responsibility for others and advocate for myself. 

I’m a big fan of compassion. I’ve seen a lot of anger dissipate and self-esteem grow out of it.


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## In Absentia

LoveAddict said:


> I can see that you understand how damaging your anger was for the marriage, but I’m glad you have that insight now. I’m not sure what it is, but there is a sadness about your posts that breaks my heart. I hope you have forgiven yourself and no longer carry so much responsibility for the demise of your marriage.
> 
> I will always advocate for those who feel they have experienced abusive behavior, but the one thing that I wish was so much clearer to me much earlier was that I had a choice not to accept my husband’s anger. But I did for many years and it just allowed me to continue to accept it. Obviously, I’m not saying it’s your wife’s fault, but I also wish for her that she realizes she may have had a choice. I don’t get the impression you chained her to a bed and force fed her abuse, but I do believe that people in our circumstances have the will to stand up for themselves, or to change the responses and behaviors that were instilled in them as children.
> 
> I think I mentioned that my mom had been abusive towards me, which is largely why I accepted it from my husband. Many people stop there and decide this explanation tied to their upbringing is enough. It’s an easy thing to blame, but few choose to change it. I also realized that I was exhibiting some of those behaviors myself and decided that my desire to no longer be an angry person or be tied to one was greater than my desire to save the marriage. I hope you and your wife find peace in or out of your marriage.


Thank you for your kind words. Unfortunately, my marriage will end because my wife can't get over my anger outbursts of the past. Which I understand. I haven't been angry for over 10 years, but she says it's not enough. So she has ended our physical relationship (it's been over a year now) and I don't think I can live like a monk for the rest of my life (I'm 55). I'm aware of the damage I have inflicted her. She is a very sensitive person, with a damaged upbringing and mental health issues. I should have known better. Obviously I feel awful about it. This is why my posts are rather sad. I love my wife and I would like to stay in the marriage, but I can't without intimacy and a deeper relationship. We are just friends.


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## LoveAddict

personofinterest said:


> Sometimes I think oldshirt is overly graphic, but he really hits the nail on the head.
> 
> You spent a decade with an angry man who wouldn't touch you. (And I cannot BELIEVE someone actually asked if it was YOUR fault he wouldn't touch you!!!!) And I really don't care if his anger was FOO oriented "cultural" (that's a new one), or if he felt better five minutes later. He devastated your psyche with his abuse - and yes, it WAS abuse.
> 
> And now that he knows he will lose you, he supposedly cares, but yet again, only if you play HIS way.
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah, there is an expert whose "method" apparently is foolproof, but this is a long standing problem. Go there, and you'll be advised to ask him to attend anger management, told to separate until he does, blah blah. You are just prolonging the inevitable. Unless you want to spend 25 hours every week alone with him, which I cannot imagine.
> 
> You are not the one who destroyed this marriage. Sure, I am certain you were not perfect. I am sure you had your frustrations and missteps. But this is NOT about you not wanting to have sex with your husband. Tjis is absolutely about him detroying your love for him and abusing you and then just expecting you to roll over.


Believe me, I spent all those years feeling these things, expressing them, only to be met with more anger. I became a self-proclaimed expert in domestic abuse. But as I said, I also came to realize I made the choice to stay. At one point, I met with a domestic abuse counselor and was about to move myself and my kids into a shelter. The counselor ended up reporting to CPS something I told her about my kids that happened years previously. I have been a mandated reporter so I knew that whatever I told her would most likely end up somewhere else. That night, the police showed up at our door, and that made for an even better dynamic between me and my husband. When the dust finally settled from that experience is when I realized that, in my case, I was creating this chaos, and blaming it all on my husband. I didn’t have the strength to just leave. I’m not defending my husband’s behavior, but I did things beyond this that contributed to the failures of the marriage. I knew he would react poorly to however I responded to his anger and chose to keep blaming him for it all. It was a terrible terrible cycle.

What I do want to really emphasize now is that we are in a different place. We have done a lot of individual work. We both acknowledge our parts in sabotaging the marriage. We have accepted responsibility and are making amends. The reasons why we ended up in such a bad place don’t really matter any more. We are no longer caught in the details of whose offense was greater. And you’re only hearing my side of the story. I would reckon that if he were telling his, I’d be made to look like a total wretch. From a possibly more logical perspective, I do think his contributions initiated the death of our relationship, but I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t acknowledge his pain as separate from mine. Ask us both, on a scale of 1-10, how much pain did the other person cause you, and I guarantee we’d both say 11. Who am I to judge his scale? We’ve come to realize this, that applying our personal standards on the other person is what got us here.

But now we’ve collectively made a choice to reconcile, and so, with whatever I post here, it is with the decision that my husband and I are reconciling. It may end up being a short-lived effort but at least I’m not stuck wondering if I should stay or go.


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## LoveAddict

@In Absentia, I severed a 30-year relationship with my best friend for the very reasons you stated (aside from the physical intimacy). It was harder than any breakup I had ever experienced and, my kids aside, will still be if my marriage ends. But it was necessary to preserve myself. She was drowning and pulling me down with her. Her mental health issues were at a point where her doctors were tinkering with her medications so it was a particularly difficult time. I just wanted her to be well, to come to our friendship with an open heart, but as we were like sisters and sometimes behaving as such, her heart started to harden towards me. In my mind, we hardly had any conflict, but one day, I received an email from her outlining all the reasons I was a bad friend to her. I confronted her and she said she had been off of her medication for four days. We brushed that under the rug, until I received another email about 8 months later. I realized there was nothing I could do, other than to make the decision to save myself. 

I hope that you and your wife can remain friends. At least you will be salvaging that. You can still have love for her and be in A marriage, just one that is happy and healthy that may not include her. And once you reclaim joy in your life, your kids will experience it too. I hope the veil of sadness over your family will be lifted soon.


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## mary35

wilson said:


> From everything you've shared, it's hard to see how you can find out if you're sexually compatible at this time in this environment. I don't get the sense that you have a solid loving relationship from which you can explore your sexual compatibility. It seems like you need a better foundation first. It seems like you guys should totally forget about anything sexual for the moment and work on trying to just be friends first. Do stuff like go on walks, make dinner together, talk, etc. Once you start to enjoy each other's company again, it'll be a lot easier to take it to the next level. But that would depend on both of you willingly taking sex off the table for the moment without developing resentment.
> 
> 
> 
> While it can be good to examine points of conflict, it can also just dredge up a lot of hard feelings and not really bring any resolution. Unless there really is something that needs to be worked out, sometimes you just have to move on. Agree that each of you did terrible things and put those grudges behind so you can have a great relationship in the future. Otherwise, you end up like the Middle East where grudges go back generations and never go away.
> 
> I hope both of you realize your relationship has some significant challenges which will make success very difficult. It's not impossible, but both of you should understand that getting to a loving marriage will take a lot of work, sacrifice and time. As long as you both want to be on the same team and have the same long-term goal, you'll have a chance.





personofinterest said:


> Ah, so in your case, SHE was withholding, and you were angry for a few months.
> 
> *In THIS case with THIS OP....*
> 
> HE was withholding for years, AND he had consistent anger problems, and now that she is ready to leave, he suddenly wants sex and wants it NOW.
> 
> I'm assuming even the men here can see the difference...


And he has added a threat - now or Ill get it elsewhere. He may be communicating more, but doesn't sound like his controlling issue has been resolved.


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## In Absentia

LoveAddict said:


> @In Absentia, I severed a 30-year relationship with my best friend for the very reasons you stated (aside from the physical intimacy). It was harder than any breakup I had ever experienced and, my kids aside, will still be if my marriage ends. But it was necessary to preserve myself. She was drowning and pulling me down with her. Her mental health issues were at a point where her doctors were tinkering with her medications so it was a particularly difficult time. I just wanted her to be well, to come to our friendship with an open heart, but as we were like sisters and sometimes behaving as such, her heart started to harden towards me. In my mind, we hardly had any conflict, but one day, I received an email from her outlining all the reasons I was a bad friend to her. I confronted her and she said she had been off of her medication for four days. We brushed that under the rug, until I received another email about 8 months later. I realized there was nothing I could do, other than to make the decision to save myself.
> 
> I hope that you and your wife can remain friends. At least you will be salvaging that. You can still have love for her and be in A marriage, just one that is happy and healthy that may not include her. And once you reclaim joy in your life, your kids will experience it too. I hope the veil of sadness over your family will be lifted soon.


Thank you. We've been together over 30 years and we'll always be friends. We are not on bad terms, we still love each other but I can't fix my wife. And she doesn't want to fix herself. I think I have fixed myself to a certain extent. I'm very aware of my temper and I'm very careful: I haven't shown her any anger in over 10 years. So, yes, it's very sad, especially because things were going well. But she kept it hidden from me, the way she really felt. I have no other option, unfortunately. At the end of the day, I believe it's for the the best. If she doesn't trust me, we can't carry on.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

LoveAddict said:


> @Ragnar, I meant to say this earlier, but this was kind of my point in posting my initial thread, so I do understand and appreciate your point of view here. I totally recognize that a healthy marriage includes a sex life to, as you said, a mutually happy degree. I don’t expect to live in limerance for the rest of our lives, but “good enough” is ok by me! It’s taking the initial step in finding out if there is any potential for good enough that has me in knots. But yes, I absolutely agree that we can no longer avoid it.
> 
> I can’t find the post for some reason, but someone said on here that yes, I should bite the bullet to find out. Because when I do, then I can at least say that I did everything I could. That’s the place from where my post came from, and I think you understand that. I’m not here to blame my husband for his anger or see if there’s a way I can get him to end the marriage first. This is just one pretty big part of the reconciliation process that’s not sitting well with me right now.


A tough spot emotionally no matter what.

One of the best preparations for peace of mind on many subjects is afterwards, how will we look back on the way things played out.

If possible, it may be best to try, only if you decide, so when you look back in the event of a split you know you tried all you could.

It sounds like there are many pieces to your circumstances, no one solution may solve all ills.

If you have any desire at all to reconcile and still don't- by sleeping with him then even if things still collapse there will be one less "what if" in your rear view mirror. 

Trying to sleep with him one last time may itself solidify a split is best, helping the decision making process. 

Either may or may not help "future" you. 

Best of luck,

RR


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## LoveAddict

Well folks...I bit the bullet. I did not vomit and I don’t have any regrets. I guess that’s all I can hope for, for the first time after so long. I don’t know. Maybe that’s worst than just knowing the physical relationship is just dead. My husband said he felt weird. He wanted to analyze out thoughts and feelings, but I convinced him that we should not have any expectations for this go-around. 

I’m starting a new post in the sex forum because I’m not really sure how I feel about it all, especially moving forward. Successful ending or not, I won’t lose sight of the fact that our marriage is still very broken, and there is a good chance that it will revert back to that place once all this hysterical romance dies down. Thank you, everyone, for helping me get through this part of my journey.


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## wilson

LoveAddict said:


> Well folks...I bit the bullet.


Ah! I see the problem! You're not actually supposed to bite it. Trying being a bit more gentle and it'll probably go better 

On a serious note, it is good you tried regardless of how it worked out. Just having the mindset of being open to trying different solutions can often bring progress.


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