# LD's get frustrated, too.



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Full disclosure - I am a bit nervous about making this thread since this is a sensitive topic. I am not sure how to make it more private. My goal is to hopefully use feedback from this thread to gather my thoughts on a path forward. 

I am the LD spouse in my marriage. I've been reading here for years, including giving feedback on a few HD threads trying to offer the LD perspective. It seems that LD's often get a bad reputation, and I'm hoping that won't prevent me from sharing here.

I would like to improve my own satisfaction with sex, but I do not know how. Everyone else seems to have this magical experience, and I don't and really never have. I see this as a problem with ME and my body, not a problem with my partner. I feel defective. The whole issue seems too complicated and detailed that I don't even know where to start with asking for advice. 

I am the lower drive spouse, but I DO have a drive. It's there. It's just lower than my H. My natural inclination is about 1-2x a month. That is without any outside "inspiration" - i.e., spontaneous desire. I hear that a lot of women are responsive desire, responding to some kind of stimulus. I cannot say for sure if I fall into that category because my H does not approach me or initiate sex. (I won't go into further detail on that here, but if asked I'll elaborate.)

Although I only spontaneously desire it 1-2x a month, we are doing it around once every 7-10 days. That is all initiated by me, trying to keep my marriage alive and well. I do think sex is important. That's still not as often as my H would like but he does not complain (to me, at least. I don't know what he really thinks.) I do think he is disappointed in both the frequency and in my performance, but that is just me getting in my own head and projecting my insecurity onto him. He has never expressly said anything to me to make me feel that way. 

For the most part, when I start with spontaneous desire, I enjoy sex on the same level that someone might enjoy a good meal. It's nice. It's not mind blowing. If I am not hungry before this nice meal is in front of me, I dont enjoy it nearly as much. 

I have trouble reaching O with a partner. I always have. It takes an extraordinary amount of effort to make it happen during sex. A lot of times I feel that the effort is not worth the reward. I can and do have sex without my O, and in those cases sex is just "meh" for me. Not good and not bad, just OK. I have been sexually active since I was 14, and I did not have my first O with a partner until I was around 20. Even then it was only sporadic. I will say that with my husband, it is the best that it has ever been. I can O more consistently with him than at any time in my past. It's still nowhere near what I'd like it to be. It's still a lot of work. 

When I was younger, I used to always fake my O. I didn't know any better to be honest. I always thought that sex was for the man, not the woman. That it was something I was doing FOR him, not something to be enjoyed together. I did not know how to get myself to O anyway with a partner, and I didn't want to share my shame of being defective for not being able to do what seems to be easy for everyone else. So I faked it, to spare both his feelings and my own. The idea of being truthful about it and then going on this quest to get me to O was something I dreaded. Every man I've ever been with required the woman to O before sex was considered "over", and seemed to judge their own worth over their ability to do so. I did not want to be the cause of bad feelings for someone I cared about, so I put on the act. This included faking it with my now-husband in the beginning of our relationship. I do not fake it with him anymore and have not for many years. I do not blame any of my partners for my lack of O or lack of enjoyment, especially during the time that I was faking it.

As I get older, I find my body and what sex feels like to be continually changing. I do not know if that is normal. It seems to get better over time, but the physical sensations of sex have changed over the years. This makes it difficult for me to find a path to O with my H that stays consistent. We can have a few key moves that usually get me there, and over time they don't work anymore. Or they work on a Tuesday and not on a Friday. I have no idea why, and it is so frustrating. This has particularly been a problem post childbirth. That was almost 9 years ago now. 

Additional complications - 

I take SSRI for anxiety. I have been taking them for about 9 years now. I have been on various medications at varying dosages. These all effect my sex drive. I have worked closely with my doctor to try to get on a medication that 1. works (sex is the last thing I care about when I'm rocking in the corner in a constant state of panic) and 2. has the least effect on my sex drive. This meant finding a specific med that worked and then trying to get on the lowest possible dose to control my anxiety. I have found that the sexual side effects increase as the dosage increases. I am on the lowest dose I am willing to go right now and I am actually having break through symptoms, so I am worried I may have to bring the dosage back up again. My sole reason for keeping the dosage low is an effort to keep those sexual side effects at bay. (Side note: I have tried all of the meds that claim no sexual side effects like Well butrin and they do not work for me.)

I do not take birth control. We got pregnant both times while I was on birth control and using it exactly as prescribed. Birth control also wreaked havoc on my sex drive, and without the assurance of preventing pregnancy, we feel like what's the point. We use condoms. My H is not a candidate for a vasectomy due to some issues he has. We both wish we didn't have to use anything, but every other option we've looked into we've decided we didn't like. 

I have some mystery health problems that flare up suddenly. Right now I have a blanket diagnosis of "fibromyalgia" but I don't think that is right. My symptoms are pain related. When I am in a flare I can become useless on the couch for many days at a time. That complicates my sex life because in a flare period I am pretty much completely useless, and sex is off the table. These flares are completely unpredictable for me. Part of my journey has been trying to figure out triggers so that I can reduce the number of flares. 

I will leave it at that for now. I don't even know where to begin to start making things better. 

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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Mismatched sex drives in a relationship is neither person's fault, but is difficult on both. 

Your low sex drive can easily be a combination of medication (which you can't avoid), and bad early experiences where you pretended to O, because you thought you needed to, and so didn't get to fully enjoy sex. 


When you say you have difficulty having an O during "sex" do you mean during intercourse, or do you mean from any sexual activity, including vibrators etc. 

Would having an O regularly change things?

I expect your husband doesn't initiate because he is frustrated by the lack of sex. It isn't his fault, and it isn't your fault, but I expect the frustration is there. 

How do you feel about doing sexual things for him if you are not in the mood? Is it something you can do just to make him happy? Does he do non-sexual things for you just to make you happy?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

> Although I only spontaneously desire it 1-2x a month, we are doing it around once every 7-10 days. That is all initiated by me, trying to keep my marriage alive and well. I do think sex is important. That's still not as often as my H would like but he does not complain (to me, at least. I don't know what he really thinks.) I do think he is disappointed in both the frequency and *in my performance*, but that is just me getting in my own head and projecting my insecurity onto him. He has never expressly said anything to me to make me feel that way.


Just to pick a chunk to comment on, not ignoring the rest 

You know, he well may be disappointed in freq. I'd be surprised if he is in your performance as long as you are making a bit of an effort, which it sounds like you are. It really doesn't take much for us to feel like you care.

The other thing is, feel free not to answer this, any history of any trauma? I ask because of the combo of anxiety, mystery health issues, somewhat early start to sexual activity, general LD issues etc. can suggest that. Therapy would help if that is the case. And it could be lighter duty stuff like unstable home life, divorced parents etc.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Mismatched sex drives in a relationship is neither person's fault, but is difficult on both.
> 
> Your low sex drive can easily be a combination of medication (which you can't avoid), and bad early experiences where you pretended to O, because you thought you needed to, and so didn't get to fully enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


I meant any sexual activity, with the exception of incorporating a vibrator. My H does not like using them so I try to limit it as much as possible, but when we do use them I can get there in under 5 minutes. It does feel a bit unnatural and clunky though when we use them.



> Would having an O regularly change things?


I think so? I mean it's hard to explain how it feels to have sex without an O to a lot of people who have them every time. I've never met a man who didn't O every time and expect that to be part of their experience. But since I have never experienced "having an O regularly" myself, I can't fully answer to what degree it would change things. 



> I expect your husband doesn't initiate because he is frustrated by the lack of sex. It isn't his fault, and it isn't your fault, but I expect the frustration is there.
> 
> How do you feel about doing sexual things for him if you are not in the mood? Is it something you can do just to make him happy? Does he do non-sexual things for you just to make you happy?


About 75% of the time we have sex, it is for his benefit. I'm not a starfish and I initiate it, but it is for him not really me because I was not in the mood when I started it. Sometimes I think if he DID initiate it or at least make some moves that it would increase my desire to do it more often, but I just don't know for sure and the risk seems too great to bring it up. I don't want to make false promises to him. I keep thinking if I ask him to do something in hopes it will change things, and then it doesn't end up working, the defeat will be worse than just never trying anything at all. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Is he passionate when you have sex? Does he take his time pleasing you without frustration or feeling like he's trying to rush things? Is there a lot of non-genital foreplay beforehand or is it right to your vagina?

Initiating all the time would really dampen things. Is it initiating right before sex starts? 
Some of the best part is the during the day flirting, anticipation, sexy texts and touches to get you all warmed up before you're even in bed. 

Sex was pretty blah for me too until I found the right partner for me. I don't think all hope is lost, may just need some tweaking


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do you think he could get used to using a a vibrator as part of sex? We do and I've never had any problem with it. I did used to be able to give her an O through oral etc, but she prefers getting there more quickly. It seems that would help you enjoy sex more which might make him enjoy it more.

I fully understand not having an O. About half of the time I don't. I take care of my wife, and then she is too "tired" do do anything for me. It does make sex a lot less desirable. 

It is easy in a bad sexual relationship for both people to feel nervous about making things worse. Again I'm very familiar. I worry about asking for things that she will either reject with a negative response, or as you said, suggesting something that winds up not working. 




kag123 said:


> I meant any sexual activity, with the exception of incorporating a vibrator. My H does not like using them so I try to limit it as much as possible, but when we do use them I can get there in under 5 minutes. It does feel a bit unnatural and clunky though when we use them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Don't feel alone. Your story is one I've seen lots of with friends. 

Don't know how much of the following you might have already tried....

Read fifty shades of grey. Try to connect to the body response systems described. It can help you become responsive. Try positions other than missionary. Try a **** ring with a small bullet. These vibrate but are much less intrusive than many vibrators. 

Your husband doesn't like vibrators is a red flag for me. He should want to please you. If this does it for you what's the issue. Some men are just jerks and only care about their O. But let's assume yours isn't a jerk. Some men feel like they aren't manly if their penis doesn't make you O in their time frame. Have to work of the why he doesn't like it. When mine makes me O with toys I make sure to give him credit and tell him he's my puppet master making me quiver like jelly. And truth is I like him using toys over me using them any day.

My easiest O is him with a pillow under him butt, **** ring with vibrator and me on top in reverse cowgirl. I last about 2 minutes there are other positions that can take 45 minutes or not at all.

I have/had trouble Oing early on and before I became more involved I the process. I would like to say my hubby came up with new toys and positions but I started us down this path. He had however been a champ in responding. We do things I never thought he'd want to do or be open to. I now O so much more often and more importantly BETTER.

I'd encourage you to try some things and also slowly open up more with your husband. If he knows you can O doing this or that but not doing the other he should be more open to trying. One of the things that was hardest for me, letting him get his O and admitting I didn't get mine. Then letting him 'work' on me. It was hard mentally and I felt guilty that it took me longer. But since I get better O's now we have sex more often which he loves. O's also build more desire in women we are usually more receptive the 24 hours after a good O then a normal day.

Planning ruins it for some women that view passion/sex as spontaneous or not romantic. But you might try writing a note and putting it in his lunchbox or talking over breakfast. ( assuming he has any clue about what you've posted). Tell him you'd like sex tonight, tell him things you'd like to happen. Men for the most part like to be clued in instead of guessing.

I'd write something like this but fill in with anything you want.

Dearest Husband,

Last night I had a sexy dream of you, and tonight I'd like to fulfill some of that. When we get home and we go to the bedroom to change kiss my passionately and gently squeeze my ass. I love your hands. During dinner sit by me and rest your hand on my thigh. Later when I'm in the shower I want you to come in after I've washed my hair a lather up my body playing with my breasts and rubbing my ass. I want you to dry me off kissing each part as you do. Once in bed I want to taste you taking you fully in my mouth. But I don't want to waste you here. I want to feel your tongue gently tasting me and your finger exploring me. I'm going to slip on a **** ring and try a new position. I want to be on top and feel you inside me. If I come too early I want you to turn me over and mount me. I want to feel you come inside me your juices mixing with mine.

See you tonight. 

PS. I was shy about talking to you about this I hope this meets with your approval.
Lipstick kiss here. 
Lightly scented if he likes scents.


And since I didn't mention it before. Lube Lube.

Mid day text something weird like a cob of corn. If he ask you say it's like a penis waiting to apply enough heat til it pops and makes something good insert popcorn bowl emoji.

Or a lipstick kiss emoji.

After sex anything that felt good make sure to share that with him. Of course while it is happening is the best time but I'm guilty myself of not talking as much during just enjoying or letting him enjoy. Men tend to want to please so if he knows your liking it then they'll usually do more of it. After sex is also a great time to get him to initiate more. I love how you rubbed my butt before dinner or joined me in the shower. I think Saturday I'd like to try doggie style or a pillow under my butt I hear it makes the angle better. I'd like to try anal but I don't want to gross you out. And my favorite.... Once you've said or tried anything new because of you... I feel weird wanting new things but think I'd like to try new things are there anything you'd like to try?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've never had a clitoral O from PIV and gave up wishing for one long ago. I get so much fulfillment from PIV without an O that I've never felt like I'm lacking anything from it, but I did used to be envious of women who can have a clitoral O from it. (I'm differentiating a clitoral O from a gspot or vaginal O because I sometimes have those).

I just love the feeling of him being inside of me so much. It's almost nice to just enjoy it without worrying about an O. Whether it's slow or fast, the feeling of him inside of me is heavenly.

If I do want to have a clitoral O with a partner I have to have it by oral or vibe. Most of the time I don't bother (but I do ask for and get a gspot O about half the time....though this is usually by his fingers after the PIV.) Getting a clitoral O for me is a challenge and I don't like it feeling like a challenge with a partner. So I get those on my own when I want them. I can't have a gspot O on my own so I enjoy relying on a partner for those. 

I'm just sharing this to offer a view of sex without O's that is incredibly satisfying for another woman in case it helps.

Do you enjoy the feeling of him being inside of you, in and of itself?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is he passionate when you have sex? Does he take his time pleasing you without frustration or feeling like he's trying to rush things? Is there a lot of non-genital foreplay beforehand or is it right to your vagina?
> 
> Initiating all the time would really dampen things. Is it initiating right before sex starts?
> Some of the best part is the during the day flirting, anticipation, sexy texts and touches to get you all warmed up before you're even in bed.
> ...


Trying to answer questions as they come in...

He will do anything and everything to make sure I enjoy it. He would gladly spend hours on the task if I wanted him to. The problem is me. I don't know what to tell him to do. Without knowing what directions to give, I get flustered and feel like I am wasting time and that it's never going to go anywhere. It's also not very sexy (to me) to be giving orders the whole time. I often feel like I'm taking too long. 

There is no real foreplay before I initiate things. It's just from zero to 60 at that point. It takes me a little while to get into it. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It takes most women some time to get into it going from 0-60. 
i know I got stuck in my head a lot about not being fast enough, being too complicated. It's way too hard and frustrating to O that way. Wasn't worth the trouble. It was almost pointless to try for me. By the time I got an O it was so unsatisfying. 
Day long foreplay is a must for many woman. Being in the mood,
Having him get you in the mood is a must for many women. 

I also get not wanting to give direction. 

Look up passionate porn (often labeled as female porn) and if you see something you may like, show it to him for direction. Send some dirty texts during the day you know you'll initiate, take some sexy pics to send. He'll hopefully get the hint and keep it up. Then you will be more in the mood when the time comes. Maybe he'll start doing it himself after? 

He's willing, that's a big chunk of the battle gone 😊


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Kag123, if you don't like giving directions, find a sex education or some porn/erotica you think you would like him to do with you and ask your H if he could do what is in the video.

There is an organization that claims to help women enjoy sex. It is geared around having the man stroke the woman sexually for 15 minuets. One of the goals is for the woman to find out what she likes and give feedback so the man learns what turns the woman on.

OneTaste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OneTaste

Here is a general how to video On Youtube search for " The How To OM Video "
On Youtube watch " Ignoring Desire Tortures Your Partner " Not to say anything against you but how it might affect your H.


There are PG rated videos on Youtube and even some r rated ones if you can find them.

I am not advocating you spend money or buy anything from One Taste, but to try what they do in the 15 min session at home.


BTW, I admire your courage to post your situation.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

First of all - I want to applaud you for being here and posting on this forum - sharing your experience as a low drive. I know how rough it can be around here sometimes admitting your a low drive, but I think its great that you are willing to help give some insight about the other side which is seldom heard from.

if I understand you correctly - you orgasm about one out of 4 times. You have sex once every 7 to 10 days which means you have an orgasm about once a month or less - about 10 to 12 orgasms a year. Is this correct? 

Can you give a little more info about your situation. How old are you and your husband? What is a typical night of sex look like for you? What is your most reliable way to have and orgasm - by yourself and with your husband? Lets start with these questions.

One thing that stuck out to me is that you and your husband don't seem to communicate at all about sex. Is that correct? If so - the first thing we got to get you doing is talking to each other about sex on a regular basis. Perhaps if it is really uncomfortable for you to talk about it - can you write him letters - or share articles about sex - or read a book together about sex? To increase your enjoyment of sex more - both you and your husband need to work together and talk about it - to make it happen. 

Have you read the book "Women's Anatomy of Arousal" by Sheri Winston CNM. RN. BSN. LMT yet? If not, I strongly suggest you get it and read it with your husband if you feel comfortable enough. If you are not comfortable reading it with him - read it on your own and leave it in conspicuous places so he can pick it up and read it too.

And the last thing I want to tell you tonight - you are NOT defective - you are just unskilled at the moment. Sexual response for many women is a learned skill - and it takes practice, practice, practice to master it. Even so - because our bodies never stay the same - its also a skill we have to re-learn every time our body changes on us. We can see this as a negative thing - or we can see it as a fun challenge. Try thinking about this as a fun challenge and making the goal to have sex be more pleasurable for you than it is now. Don't focus on orgasms - focus only on feeling pleasure. Try to tune into your body and evaluate what feels pleasurable - and what doe not. Concentrate on what you are feeling. Explore different types of touch on various parts of your body - and pay attention to how it feels. Does certain types of touch feel better after you are aroused? Do you like a hard touch or light feathery ones? ETC. In other words use your senses and just work only on increasing pleasurable feelings right now!

Good Luck. We are all pulling for you!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> we are doing it around once every 7-10 days. *That is all initiated by me*, trying to keep my marriage alive and well. I do think sex is important. *That's still not as often as my H would like* but he does not complain (to me, at least. I don't know what he really thinks.) I do think he is disappointed in both the frequency and in my performance


Bolded has me confused. He doesn't initiate? At all? I don't think it's your performance.

ETA: have sorta been there, dumb but difficult, but real (but she didnt/wouldn't initiate, awkward).


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Also keep in mind how the whole relationship is can play a big role in how easily it is to O and how much you enjoy sex

If he meets your emotional needs, you feel respected and loved, it is a lot easier to enjoy sex. 

A woman's drive can have a lot to do with her emotions and needs.


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## Jason Bourne (Jul 30, 2017)

Sounds like your partner needs to discover you whatever method he may be using. 
I found that most women esspecially my wife are very very typical female like (duh) and will need turned on in ways that have nothing to do with sex. And when i do she glows and shivers and orgasms within seconds and several times. My wife has your drive even a lot less. She could easily be a nun. She was a virgin and she never ever masturbated. Extremelly low sex drive. If i wouldn't initiate any action sex would never exist.
Your partner needs to stimulate you emotionally, do some chores for you during the day or days before it happens, buy you attentive small gifts. 

As for SSRIs i know the filling i'm on snris myself and it made a huge difference when i weaned off and back on. Apparently Rosea Rhodiola is pretty good with libido. However theoretically it increases the serotonin in your receptors which may or may not badly work against the SSRI you're talking. Talk to your doc. My mom takes an SSRI and rhodiola rosea and basil (capsules) and she says it has greately improved her sleep and mood. 
I know exacty what you're saying about being anxious vs sex. 
In regards to anxiety the solution i found is to learn to identify any stress in your life and manage it and care less. 
Anxiety and depression are not ilnesses but an effect of a bad lifestyle or emotional state


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Just to pick a chunk to comment on, not ignoring the rest
> 
> You know, he well may be disappointed in freq. I'd be surprised if he is in your performance as long as you are making a bit of an effort, which it sounds like you are. It really doesn't take much for us to feel like you care.
> 
> The other thing is, feel free not to answer this, any history of any trauma? I ask because of the combo of anxiety, mystery health issues, somewhat early start to sexual activity, general LD issues etc. can suggest that. Therapy would help if that is the case. And it could be lighter duty stuff like unstable home life, divorced parents etc.


I just saw this. 

No trauma history at all. 

Anxiety and mental health disorders run in my family on both sides. I truly feel my problem is a brain chemistry problem. I've done every natural remedy and therapy and nothing gives true relief like medication does. 90% of my family on both sides take SSRI medication and are non-functioning without it. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Do you think he could get used to using a a vibrator as part of sex? We do and I've never had any problem with it. I did used to be able to give her an O through oral etc, but she prefers getting there more quickly. It seems that would help you enjoy sex more which might make him enjoy it more.
> 
> I fully understand not having an O. About half of the time I don't. I take care of my wife, and then she is too "tired" do do anything for me. It does make sex a lot less desirable.
> 
> It is easy in a bad sexual relationship for both people to feel nervous about making things worse. Again I'm very familiar. I worry about asking for things that she will either reject with a negative response, or as you said, suggesting something that winds up not working.


Regarding the vibrator - 

I think it makes him feel inferior to use it constantly. It also causes problems because he feels like he cannot last as long when we use one. He doesn't like that it's easier for me with the vibrator than without it. A ring or any type of vibrator that he wears himself doesn't work for me. I need constant stimulation so I have to be the one using it, which means I need to be in certain positions in order to use it. That's what can be somewhat clunky about it. 



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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

anastasia6 said:


> Don't feel alone. Your story is one I've seen lots of with friends.
> 
> Don't know how much of the following you might have already tried....
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the suggestions. 

I guess I am a little tired of taking the lead on this subject all of the time and have a bit of resentment there over it. Like I said, it's a lot of work for me to get my O during the act of sex itself. Add in that when I initiate, I also have to do the mental work of getting myself to that point in the first place. That means "making myself" do it, as one would make themselves go to the gym for example, knowing it's good for you but having that reluctance still. By the time we are in bed and getting ready to do it, I already feel like I've exerted 100x more effort because I was the one who had to get myself mentally ready for it when I wasn't in the mood originally. I have no idea if this makes sense to anyone else but me. 

I don't blame my H for not approaching me or initiating. If I were in his shoes I can't say I wouldn't do exactly the same. But for some reason I still have a bit of resentment there for having to lead all of the time. That is one of the main reasons I don't do notes and things with him. I want to be the recipient of those gestures not the one casting the line all of the time. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've never had a clitoral O from PIV and gave up wishing for one long ago. I get so much fulfillment from PIV without an O that I've never felt like I'm lacking anything from it, but I did used to be envious of women who can have a clitoral O from it. (I'm differentiating a clitoral O from a gspot or vaginal O because I sometimes have those).
> 
> I just love the feeling of him being inside of me so much. It's almost nice to just enjoy it without worrying about an O. Whether it's slow or fast, the feeling of him inside of me is heavenly.
> 
> ...


It feels OK. I would not say heavenly. I do not O from PIV, never have. Another problem is that we both need vastly different things to get our O. He needs fast and hard movement, I need very slow movement or none at all. I usually end up letting him do his thing because I want him to enjoy the experience. It feels OK for me, sometimes depending on where I am in my cycle it can be borderline painful. If I am going to O at all, mine will come before we ever do PIV. So by the time we get there I usually have decided in my mind whether I'm going to try for my own O or not. Either I've already had one or I know it's not going to happen at all so I just let him do what feels good for him. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I would hate having to initiate all the time and take the lead. If you stopped, would he eventually start? 
If he took the time to get you in the mood before hand, a lot of your troubles to O would be solved already. Don't feel like there is anything wrong with you. Most women can not go from 0-60 without initiating, having their partner get them in the mood,etc. 
Most women can O easier with a vibrator. Nothing you have said makes you atypical of the average woman and he needs to learn that too. You're not difficult, you're normal and he needs to know the effort required on his part before and during is normal.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Handy said:


> Kag123, if you don't like giving directions, find a sex education or some porn/erotica you think you would like him to do with you and ask your H if he could do what is in the video.
> 
> There is an organization that claims to help women enjoy sex. It is geared around having the man stroke the woman sexually for 15 minuets. One of the goals is for the woman to find out what she likes and give feedback so the man learns what turns the woman on.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will check that out! 

I am sure I can find something for us to try. 

I get frustrated too easily now. I am 33 years old and I often feel like I should have this stuff figured out by now, like I'm the only woman out there in my 30s that still struggles with this. My body is still a mystery, it still doesn't respond the same way from day to day (to sex) and that makes me feel like the goal post is constantly moving. I often wonder how I am supposed to give my H direction to help me when I can't figure it out myself. 

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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Kag, honestly I think it could have been my wife writing this letter.

22 years into this marriage, we still have the same problems we had at the beginning. Except you can add in most of your issues, pain, SSRI, thyroid, stress, etc.

She does not turn me down if I initiate it, but I am just turned off by the whole process right now. I feel that it is about 90% me servicing her, and due to other reasons, I feel like 75-80% of my life is me providing for the family and I get little to nothing in return for it. I don't know how that part of your marriage is, but it is another thing.

I feel like, historically, she has never done the work that counselors ask for and overtime I just resent her for it. I am at a point where I don't even want to initiate at all and would rather just go to sleep. Thankfully I fall asleep fast, because as I lay there I am internally agonizing about my desires to touch and be touched by her.

I imagine that in her mind, she feels that she does all the work in the bedroom and has always done the work counselors have asked for.

I really have little hope for it to change at this point.

Anyway, my wife has expressed to me that she feels she would be more interested if I chased her. If I came at her and took her, etc. That is sort of what you were expressing in an earlier post.

The reason I don't do that, is that every signal I get from her is one that tells me she doesn't really want that. I am always aware of her pain levels, her stomach upset, how tired she is, how busy her next day is going to be, etc.

Why would I try to initiate at that point? I bring that up, because maybe you can look at the messages you are sending subconsciously, and see if something changes.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

mary35 said:


> First of all - I want to applaud you for being here and posting on this forum - sharing your experience as a low drive. I know how rough it can be around here sometimes admitting your a low drive, but I think its great that you are willing to help give some insight about the other side which is seldom heard from.
> 
> if I understand you correctly - you orgasm about one out of 4 times. You have sex once every 7 to 10 days which means you have an orgasm about once a month or less - about 10 to 12 orgasms a year. Is this correct?


I suppose as an average that is more or less correct for sex with my H. I get more Os than that in a year because I still do MB and can easily get them myself that way. I use a vibrator though so it's not really the "same".



> Can you give a little more info about your situation. How old are you and your husband? What is a typical night of sex look like for you? What is your most reliable way to have and orgasm - by yourself and with your husband? Lets start with these questions.


I am 33, he is 37.

We have two young kids at home and demanding schedules, so the only time we can do it is at night after the kids are in bed. We are both typically exhausted by that time, but we don't really have much of a choice and have to take the opportunity when it's there. I will initiate once we get into bed for the night by touching him. He will respond by touching me back. Sex lasts about 30 mins on average. To be fair, I am not willing to put hours of effort into getting my O on a typical night because I know that I am depriving myself of sleep for every hour that we stay awake at night. I get about 5 hours of sleep on a good night without sex. I'm constantly doing a cost-benefit analysis in my head. For me, an hour of sleep is worth more than my O. So if my O doesn't come quickly and easily within a typical 30 min session, I'll say forget it and let the issue drop. If I really really want one and it's just not happening, I'll bring out the vibrator because then I can get one within 5 mins. 

We get date nights quite a bit, but they only rarely involve overnights for our kids. So usually a date night or time alone is spent going out somewhere and then picking up kids before we get home, so sex routine remains the same.



> One thing that stuck out to me is that you and your husband don't seem to communicate at all about sex. Is that correct? If so - the first thing we got to get you doing is talking to each other about sex on a regular basis. Perhaps if it is really uncomfortable for you to talk about it - can you write him letters - or share articles about sex - or read a book together about sex? To increase your enjoyment of sex more - both you and your husband need to work together and talk about it - to make it happen.


I'm not shy and we do talk openly about sex, I just feel like we've kind of talked it to death and don't know what else to say at this point. If I had concrete things to tell him to do, I'd tell him those things. But it doesn't feel productive to start a conversation with him like this thread - "I'm not enjoying sex as much as I want to, but I don't know why and I have absolutely no idea what to do about it, and I'm not sure whether the problem is you or me, or that we can even fix it." He's got a lot of his self worth tied up in this issue and all he hears is that I am saying HE is not good in bed if I approach it that way. I tend not to discuss things with my H unless we can forge a path towards a solution. If I am just venting or rambling I keep that to myself until I've formed my thoughts concretely and succinctly. 



> Have you read the book "Women's Anatomy of Arousal" by Sheri Winston CNM. RN. BSN. LMT yet? If not, I strongly suggest you get it and read it with your husband if you feel comfortable enough. If you are not comfortable reading it with him - read it on your own and leave it in conspicuous places so he can pick it up and read it too.
> 
> And the last thing I want to tell you tonight - you are NOT defective - you are just unskilled at the moment. Sexual response for many women is a learned skill - and it takes practice, practice, practice to master it. Even so - because our bodies never stay the same - its also a skill we have to re-learn every time our body changes on us. We can see this as a negative thing - or we can see it as a fun challenge. Try thinking about this as a fun challenge and making the goal to have sex be more pleasurable for you than it is now. Don't focus on orgasms - focus only on feeling pleasure. Try to tune into your body and evaluate what feels pleasurable - and what doe not. Concentrate on what you are feeling. Explore different types of touch on various parts of your body - and pay attention to how it feels. Does certain types of touch feel better after you are aroused? Do you like a hard touch or light feathery ones? ETC. In other words use your senses and just work only on increasing pleasurable feelings right now!
> 
> Good Luck. We are all pulling for you!


I have not read that book - I will look into it. Thanks! 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Bolded has me confused. He doesn't initiate? At all? I don't think it's your performance.
> 
> ETA: have sorta been there, dumb but difficult, but real (but she didnt/wouldn't initiate, awkward).


He does not initiate. I think if you asked HIM this question, he would argue differently and say that he did. If he does initiate, it's so subtle that I am not getting the message. 

I think for him this is a bit like trying to navigate a minefield. He has no way of knowing from one moment to the next how I am going to feel by the time sex is a possibility (see my previous post - our only real time is late at night). I can be sick at the drop of a hat with horrible migraines or pain, which tends to hit me hard and very suddenly. I can be absolutely exhausted and despite perhaps wanting sex earlier in the day, be completely forgetting about it by the time we crash into bed at night. I think he knows that he has no way to predict my receptiveness, so it is easier to just let me tell him when I'm ready. He never turns me down. He just waits for me to give him the green light basically. I consider this "me initiating". 

I have told him that I would like him to initiate more and he says to me these exact things. That he does not know how I'm going to be feeling and it feels insensitive to ask for sex if I am not feeling well. 

He will also do very subtle things and claim that I rejected him. For example, we might be watching TV and he will put his hand on my knee while we are on the couch, and if I shift position because I am uncomfortable and his hand is no longer on my knee this is me rejecting him. He will never say that to me though. It took me years to realize that these tiny little gestures were something huge to him, and that I did something without even realizing it that he interpreted as my rejection. When I had no idea something like touching my knee was his initiating sex. I think we've mostly gotten past this now, but this hit the fan a couple of years ago and I was floored when it did...mostly floored that I was apparently causing so much angst by rejecting him and wasn't even aware I was doing it. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I would hate having to initiate all the time and take the lead. If you stopped, would he eventually start?
> If he took the time to get you in the mood before hand, a lot of your troubles to O would be solved already. Don't feel like there is anything wrong with you. Most women can not go from 0-60 without initiating, having their partner get them in the mood,etc.
> Most women can O easier with a vibrator. Nothing you have said makes you atypical of the average woman and he needs to learn that too. You're not difficult, you're normal and he needs to know the effort required on his part before and during is normal.


I'm not sure if he would eventually start. 

Since I do have a drive, albeit a smaller one, I never let it go too long to truly test this theory. 

I think the longest we've gone without sex in my recent memory was 5 weeks. That was with me letting the issue drop and seeing what happened. I was MB during that time to get myself by. That alone made me feel very crummy about what I was doing, because being the lower drive spouse I try to reserve all of my desire for him instead of taking care of it myself. By the end of 5 weeks he stopped me in the bedroom one day and said "Are we ever going to have sex again?" Just like that lol. Even though that wasn't quite what I wanted in terms of initiating (definitely not sexy or romantic), I had been waiting and waiting for him to even notice so that ended the standoff right then and there. 5 weeks is a long time even for me so I was pretty much scaling the walls at that point and didn't want to make him jump through any more hoops. 

I didn't really feel like that experiment was good for my marriage overall though. I just grew resentful that he wasn't making a move and I think he was probably just wondering what the heck was going on. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> Kag, honestly I think it could have been my wife writing this letter.
> 
> 22 years into this marriage, we still have the same problems we had at the beginning. Except you can add in most of your issues, pain, SSRI, thyroid, stress, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes I think this is 100% correct and absolutely exactly how my husband feels (regarding why he does not initiate). That is why I said I do not blame him at all for his lack of initiation. I get it. If I were in his shoes and he were tired and sick all of the time, I would feel selfish asking him for sex. That is why I said I imagine for him it is like trying to navigate a minefield. 

In my heart I want him to "chase me", but my logical brain knows that I cannot offer him a guarantee that even if he did, I would be feeling well enough to accept his advances. That alone is why I do not push this issue. I said it before - I do not want to give any false promises to him. If I tell him to do X and I promise him Y if he does, I better be damn sure I can deliver Y before I have him go through the effort. 

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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I know different people are bothered by different things so its hard to compare, but I so enjoy watching my wife have an O, that a using a vibrator is fine with me. Its only akward because she wants me to hold it and that is awkward while also having sex (or was back when we had sex :frown2 If you are happy to hold the vibrator, I don't see how its a problem.

Does he not last as long because he feels the vibrations, or because of your reaction to the vibrator. If the former, a small light vibrator might be able to stimulate you but not him. 

Have you looked inot a we-vibe? Its something you wear / insert during intercourse so it doesn't get in the way. OTOH, he will feel the vibrations so again he won't last as long.

Still I don't see why you can't use a vibrator half the time. It may not be the best for him, but it is for you. The other half of the time you can do what works best for him. (and afterwards he should be happy to finish you with a vibrator / oral / toys)





kag123 said:


> Regarding the vibrator -
> 
> I think it makes him feel inferior to use it constantly. It also causes problems because he feels like he cannot last as long when we use one. He doesn't like that it's easier for me with the vibrator than without it. A ring or any type of vibrator that he wears himself doesn't work for me. I need constant stimulation so I have to be the one using it, which means I need to be in certain positions in order to use it. That's what can be somewhat clunky about it.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It sounds like both of you feel like you do most of the work in the bedroom. How is that?



Tasorundo said:


> Kag, honestly I think it could have been my wife writing this letter.
> 
> 22 years into this marriage, we still have the same problems we had at the beginning. Except you can add in most of your issues, pain, SSRI, thyroid, stress, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Kag, I wish I could tell you something that would help, but as I wallow in the opposite side of the mire, I don't really have an answer.

I am trying to think of what I could get from her that would help pull us both out of it, and I don't really have any ideas at this point. I have tried many things from this end, flirting, non-sexual touching, massage, focusing on her pleasure, not focusing on her pleasure, dates, taking on more at home, etc. Hell, I even moved our family across the country for a new job so that she could change careers to something she wanted.

The saddest part of my story is that the only period in our 22 years that things were good, was during the hysterical bonding after I had a ONS. Then one day, like a switch, that was gone. Not only was it gone, but I think she now resents that she ever behaved that way, like I forced her to be someone she wasn't.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Being rejected is really unpleasant, but at the same time you can't want sex all the time. Can you find subtle hints to give him?

If he puts a hand on you and you move away from discomfort, why not continue to shift until you are right next to him, give him a kiss on the ear or something. Basically if he takes any step in the direction of intimacy, you can at least match it / take the next step. 

My wife sometimes asks me to initiate more often, but its probably less than one in 20 times that she actually accepts my initiation. Its really tough on the ego to be constantly turned down by the person you love. Its also sexually frustrating - before initiating you are thinking about sex, and wanting it, so rejection hurts even more. 

I think that if you are going to reject more often than he does, it really needs to be up to you to take the first step, or at least give him a clear sign that he should. 




kag123 said:


> He does not initiate. I think if you asked HIM this question, he would argue differently and say that he did. If he does initiate, it's so subtle that I am not getting the message.
> 
> I think for him this is a bit like trying to navigate a minefield. He has no way of knowing from one moment to the next how I am going to feel by the time sex is a possibility (see my previous post - our only real time is late at night). I can be sick at the drop of a hat with horrible migraines or pain, which tends to hit me hard and very suddenly. I can be absolutely exhausted and despite perhaps wanting sex earlier in the day, be completely forgetting about it by the time we crash into bed at night. I think he knows that he has no way to predict my receptiveness, so it is easier to just let me tell him when I'm ready. He never turns me down. He just waits for me to give him the green light basically. I consider this "me initiating".
> 
> ...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

uhtred, I cannot speak for Kag, but the reason why I think my wife and I both feel we do most of the work is this: My wife initiates, much like Kag described she does. My wife will touch my arm or shoulder in a more than a pat kind of way, or possibly she will even kiss me. This is followed by me kissing her, touching her, having oral with her, using a toy on her, and then having sex with her. So, after the shoulder pat, it is all about me doing the work.

Her work was patting my shoulder.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Since I do have a drive, albeit a smaller one


Are you sure about that?

I do get your frustration, my wife rarely ever initiates, and if so it's verbally. She's even outright said that it's my job. Do I want to feel desired? Sure, but as long as she doesn't turn me down (and she doesn't) I'm ok I guess. But I do know what times I have a green light.

Your uncertain health is tough, but he needs to realize that it's not you rejecting him.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Where do you live? Do they have medical or recreational marijuana?

You might find that mj treats your anxiety better than SSRI and with no sexual side effects. Except maybe that you are more relaxed and enjoy sex more. Go for the sativa varieties that are activating rather than the indica that are sedating.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> I do get your frustration, my wife rarely ever initiates, and if so it's verbally. She's even outright said that it's my job. Do I want to feel desired? Sure, but as long as she doesn't turn me down (and she doesn't) I'm ok I guess. But I do know what times I have a green light.
> 
> Your uncertain health is tough, but he needs to realize that it's not you rejecting him.


What do you mean - am I sure? 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I know different people are bothered by different things so its hard to compare, but I so enjoy watching my wife have an O, that a using a vibrator is fine with me. Its only akward because she wants me to hold it and that is awkward while also having sex (or was back when we had sex :frown2 If you are happy to hold the vibrator, I don't see how its a problem.
> 
> Does he not last as long because he feels the vibrations, or because of your reaction to the vibrator. If the former, a small light vibrator might be able to stimulate you but not him.
> 
> ...


He doesn't last as long because he feels the vibrator sensation and he doesn't like that it makes him lose control over his own control, if that makes sense. Most of sex is me desperately trying to speed my response up while he's simultaneously trying to slow his down LOL. It's bizarre but that is how it works. 

I hold it, but it gets in the way of any face to face positions, because otherwise I can't fit it where it needs to go. And he prefers face to face positions. 

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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> What do you mean - am I sure?


Are you sure your drive is lower than his? He doesn't sound super HD to me. I just threw that out as it may alter your approach.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Being rejected is really unpleasant, but at the same time you can't want sex all the time. Can you find subtle hints to give him?
> 
> If he puts a hand on you and you move away from discomfort, why not continue to shift until you are right next to him, give him a kiss on the ear or something. Basically if he takes any step in the direction of intimacy, you can at least match it / take the next step.
> 
> ...


I agree with you and since I've never experienced him actually initiating as many times as he may actually want sex, I couldn't tell you how many times he might actually get rejected. For example, you stated for your marriage it is usually 1 out of 20 times she says yes. I don't know for us if it would be 1 out of 20, or 1 out of 10, or 1 out of 2, and to me those differences matter. 

If I were my H, I might be comfortable taking a swing if I knew I'd get a hit at least half of the time. But if you asked me to do it and I knew the odds were only 1 out of 20, I'd be a lot less likely to put myself out there at all. I empathize that it takes a lot of vulnerability to make the advance and risk rejection. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> uhtred, I cannot speak for Kag, but the reason why I think my wife and I both feel we do most of the work is this: My wife initiates, much like Kag described she does. My wife will touch my arm or shoulder in a more than a pat kind of way, or possibly she will even kiss me. This is followed by me kissing her, touching her, having oral with her, using a toy on her, and then having sex with her. So, after the shoulder pat, it is all about me doing the work.
> 
> Her work was patting my shoulder.


Ok - honestly, this might be fair for me too. 

If I am going to O at all, I am in the passive position to do so. I cannot focus on performing and my O at the same time. I don't know why. So yes, I at least give a college try for my own O every time we have sex and that means to some extent that every single time, he is doing something to me vs me doing something to him. At least for part of it. I never thought about whether this would bother him to be honest, he has never said anything about it. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Are you sure your drive is lower than his? He doesn't sound super HD to me. I just threw that out as it may alter your approach.


I can only go by what he tells me. He says his ideal would be every 1-3 days and that he MBs a lot because he knows I couldn't keep up with that. 

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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Another thought. Can you have sex with him the way he enjoys, then have him take care of you with a vibrator and dildo (or whatever you prefer). Or reverse the order. There is still the closeness and intimacy of PIV, but you also get an O, even if it isn't at the same time. 

There are lots of different shaped vibrators, so maybe you can find something that works. 




kag123 said:


> He doesn't last as long because he feels the vibrator sensation and he doesn't like that it makes him lose control over his own control, if that makes sense. Most of sex is me desperately trying to speed my response up while he's simultaneously trying to slow his down LOL. It's bizarre but that is how it works.
> 
> I hold it, but it gets in the way of any face to face positions, because otherwise I can't fit it where it needs to go. And he prefers face to face positions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Ok - honestly, this might be fair for me too.
> 
> If I am going to O at all, I am in the passive position to do so. I cannot focus on performing and my O at the same time. I don't know why. So yes, I at least give a college try for my own O every time we have sex and that means to some extent that every single time, he is doing something to me vs me doing something to him. At least for part of it. I never thought about whether this would bother him to be honest, he has never said anything about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


But this is super normal too. Even now I need to be relaxed and focused. I can't do 69, It's hard for me to be doing work and getting towards an O at the same time. There's nothing wrong with him needing to be doing something to you, he should enjoy this part just as much. The vast majority of women need something other than just PIV to O so either before, during or after sex, she needs something else and if you are starting at 0, that is usually a lot of work. 

You can always try a set amount of time, say 1 month. He doesn't MB, he initiates sex and takes the time to put you in the mood first (ie- not just rolling over in bed wanting sex, he sets the mood during the day so you aren't at 0 when he initiates) You agree to not reject him during this time. At the same time, 15 hours a week alone time, dates and romance. 

After 1 month evaluate if there were any positive changes in your relationship and sex life. 

I really do not believe there is anything wrong or different about your sex drive. All the things you mention are so normal and common.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would start looking at ways to make life LESS demanding. All the other issues may originate there.

We were your age with two young kids, part time work and full time PhD students and made it work well. In a few years when you age a bit and the kids start their sports / piano / college / medical school routine (it never ends ) and your careers advance and become more demanding, then what will you do when you're sleeping 5 hours a day now?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Where do you live? Do they have medical or recreational marijuana?
> 
> You might find that mj treats your anxiety better than SSRI and with no sexual side effects. Except maybe that you are more relaxed and enjoy sex more. Go for the sativa varieties that are activating rather than the indica that are sedating.


Kind of funny story - we went to Vegas in May, and I saw tons of MJ boutiques all over the place. They were for medical use only so you had to have the medical ID card to get it. Damn. I was about to get us some until we found that out. 

The week after we returned home, recreational use was legalized there. Of course!

We have never tried it together. It's not legal in our state. 

I'm a bit leery, too, but I would definitely try it. I used to have a couple of drinks and that would put me in the mood, but now with my pain/migraine issue it seems like even half of one drink is enough to spur a migraine.  It was my one vice for relaxing and now it's slipping away! I am honestly a bit pissed about it.

I also have had some very strange experiences mixing my SSRI with alcohol and I am worried that the same thing might happen with any substance. I find it hard to predict how the alcohol will affect me. It's very wierd. Sometimes I can have a couple of drinks and it's just like before I took the meds...fun and no big deal. Other times I can have one drink, feel like nothing, then a very long time later feel VERY drunk. Like room is spinning, I'm going to vomit drunk. It's like my body doesn't metabolize the alcohol correctly or something and it will hit me out of nowhere like an hour later. Doesn't make any sense. I've gotten sick a couple of times that way and it's made me super cautious now about alcohol. I drink a lot slower than I used to afraid that it might knock me over unexpectedly if I don't! I am worried MJ might be the same, but if I get the opportunity to do it legally, I will try it! 

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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Although I only spontaneously desire it 1-2x a month, we are doing it around once every 7-10 days. That is all initiated by me, trying to keep my marriage alive and well. I do think sex is important. That's still not as often as my H would like but he does not complain (to me, at least. I don't know what he really thinks.) I do think he is disappointed in both the frequency and in my performance, but that is just me getting in my own head and projecting my insecurity onto him. He has never expressly said anything to me to make me feel that way.


I think that is wonderful that you are making the effort to stay connected to your husband. 

Being the husband of a LD spouse, I just wanted to give my perspective of this quote. You may be different, but here is my experience. You are correct, he would most likely enjoy having sex at least 1-2x a week instead of a month. I used to do the romance and try to initiate regularly. I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "I'm tired", "The kids are around", "I have so much work to do", "All you ever think about is sex". She will never flat out say no, but there is always some excuse. And most of the romantic gestures are meet either with indifference or a seeming inability to even notice the gesture. We have talked about it and she acknowledges the lack of sex, but blames it on me not approaching her when she is available. No such thing as spontaneity. If sex does not occur in the morning while she is still laying in bed, it does not happen. And even then, she will roll over or pretend to be asleep if she is not in the mood.

All in all, I finally just quit trying. The shear volume of rejections was enough to discourage me from trying or even bother to talk about it anymore. She is content with 1x a month or less. I never turn her down when she is in the mood, but I rarely pursue it on my own. I wouldn't say I am bitter about it, I have just accepted that she just isn't into fooling around that much. Would I love to be with someone with an equal sex drive? Absolutely, but I am not young any more and going out to find some sweet young thing isn't on my radar. The only bonus of getting older is that I am not as interested as I once was.

Good luck working on you. I hope that your husband will appreciate your effort and see that you are trying to overcome this hurdle.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If I were you, I would plan a vacation "just the 2 of you" to a place where it is legal for recreation.

Also, I think you need to be very explicit with your H that his aversion / insecurity is a big part of the problem. This is not a case where kag is LD and H is blameless and unlucky. This is a case where kag's sexuality is well within human female norms and H's insecurity prevents either of you from achieving the closeness that you could obtain if he were braver.

Also, think about getting some viagra and attempting "round 2" with the focus being mainly on you and using toys during PIV. That is, round one is for him. Round 2 is for you. He won't have as much trouble lasting longer during round 2, even with you holding the toy against him.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Is it unrealistic to think that I could totally ditch the vibrator? He doesn't seem to like it and then it makes me feel self conscious for using it. I get frustrated because I wish I could just experience what sex is like for a man, just once. You know, not an overwhelming effort. It seems like that will never happen for me. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Is it unrealistic to think that I could totally ditch the vibrator? He doesn't seem to like it and then it makes me feel self conscious for using it. I get frustrated because I wish I could just experience what sex is like for a man, just once. You know, not an overwhelming effort. It seems like that will never happen for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


That'll never happen for the vast majority of women sadly. 

Lots of foreplay (before the vagina part) and the right combination of touching and/or oral could replace the vibrator but wanting to have quick, simple PIV orgasms is just not a likely bet. Even quick, simple any kind orgasms are not a likely bet for many women. 

I have managed to go from no PIV orgasms to being able to have them but it took a partner being able to do it, meet all my needs, put me in the mood and still with all of that it's not a guarantee. I have also ditched any vibes cause I don't need them right now, he does a lot of oral and other things, but if I was having a bit of a block I'd whip one out and not feel bad at all. A girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. 

Try to embrace the "effort". Don't feel it's a waste of time or too hard or too much work. It's a fun part. It's not just for you. It is part of the entire experience. He should be enjoying that part as much as PIV. It should be fun, relaxed, no time limit. Slow work up, lots of foreplay, stimulation on you... it's just a normal part of sex. 

I think a lot of people want that porn/movie sex but it's not realistic.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Can you O on your own? How much time have you spent teaching yourself to O without anyone's help?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

OP...I hate to say it but it sounds like your husband is selfish and egotistical (allergic to a vibrator way). IMHO, he should be the one here asking for advice. It just seems to me that you're already doing all you can. 

I wish I had more positive advice, but he just seems like a bad lover 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Is it unrealistic to think that I could totally ditch the vibrator? He doesn't seem to like it and then it makes me feel self conscious for using it. I get frustrated because I wish I could just experience what sex is like for a man, just once. You know, not an overwhelming effort. It seems like that will never happen for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


F that. Use what you need to use.

He doesn't like the way it feels? Ok, so what's wrong with him using it on you first until you get yours, and then follow it up with PiV? Wouldn't that just be dreadful? :slap:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> If I were you, I would plan a vacation "just the 2 of you" to a place where it is legal for recreation.
> 
> Also, I think you need to be very explicit with your H that his aversion / insecurity is a big part of the problem. This is not a case where kag is LD and H is blameless and unlucky. This is a case where kag's sexuality is well within human female norms and H's insecurity prevents either of you from achieving the closeness that you could obtain if he were braver.
> 
> Also, think about getting some viagra and attempting "round 2" with the focus being mainly on you and using toys during PIV. That is, round one is for him. Round 2 is for you. He won't have as much trouble lasting longer during round 2, even with you holding the toy against him.


I hear Vale is nice...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Full disclosure - I am a bit nervous about making this thread since this is a sensitive topic.


Thanks for sharing your story. I completely agree that if you have a certain level of desire, that it is very problematic to push yourself beyond that. If that and other issues frustrate you, there is nothing to feel ashamed about.

You should feel very proud in your marriage that even if you do not know what to do to improve things, that at least you care about it in a loving way. 

Being intimate and close to someone after many years of being married is challenging. 

If you need a place to start, try talking with your husband about what it is you need from him to help you feel more confident. If he is one of those guys that refuses to give you compliments, playfully pinch/tickle him until he gives you what you want! 

If there is one thing I have worked on with my wife, it is anything I can do to help her feel much more confident. That is probably the one thing I attribute that has helped us in all areas of our marriage. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Can you O on your own? How much time have you spent teaching yourself to O without anyone's help?


Yes I can O on my own with a vibrator. Without it, no. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Elizabeth001 said:


> OP...I hate to say it but it sounds like your husband is selfish and egotistical (allergic to a vibrator way). IMHO, he should be the one here asking for advice. It just seems to me that you're already doing all you can.
> 
> I wish I had more positive advice, but he just seems like a bad lover
> 
> ...


^ I agree a bit with this too. 

It was like night and day for me going from a man who viewed my "effort" to O as time for ME, work he did before we could get on with PIV for him. 

My BF now, that whole beginning part is for HIM. He loves it. He'll stop PIV to go back to do more. He'll do more after PIV. He'll do it even without an orgasm for himself. 
And my orgasm problems have miraculously been solved. I take next to nothing to O, I can do it multiple times.. many many multiple times, in a variety of different ways. I nearly passed out once. 

I do still think that even with the best partner ever, many women will still need "effort" to O and that's ok and normal and he should love doing it. But a good, unselfish, giving partner sure does help too.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> OP...I hate to say it but it sounds like your husband is selfish and egotistical (allergic to a vibrator way). IMHO, he should be the one here asking for advice. It just seems to me that you're already doing all you can.
> 
> I wish I had more positive advice, but he just seems like a bad lover
> 
> ...


I would disagree. 

He doesn't make a huge deal about the vibrator, I just know it's not his preference and I wish it wasn't mine. 

I would like to experience "easy" sex that doesn't involve so much time and effort, that is all. A vibrator makes it take less time and effort but is very unnatural and does make it seem less romantic, I guess. 

I mean is it a total pipe dream to want to O together at the same time in a harmonious experience instead of the first you, then me, thing. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I mean is it a total pipe dream to want to O together at the same time in a harmonious experience instead of the first you, then me, thing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


That's Hollywood stuff, imo. When that happens at all it's a complete accident.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I mean is it a total pipe dream to want to O together at the same time in a harmonious experience instead of the first you, then me, thing.


Ugh, we used to regularly be able to simul-cum from PiV, no more, so be it. Can you cum from oral? It's a skill my wife only learned later in life, we are glad about that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Yes I can O on my own with a vibrator. Without it, no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


He would object to using the vibrator while you are doing it? 

Do you like O? Do you get something out of it? Do you feel sexy or get something out of releasing that side of yourself?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Kag- is he kinky at all? You? There's some things he and you can try on the kinky end of things but only if it is something you guys would be into.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I want to put a disclaimer out there that I do not think my H is bad in bed at all and he is the most patient and giving partner I've ever had. He would gladly do anything I asked and more. He would spend hours on this quest to make things better for me if I allowed him to. Key phrase there. I don't often give huge chunks of time towards this effort and will cut it short if I think it's not going anywhere for me. 

So I respectfully disagree with those who are saying otherwise and would prefer to focus the conversation onto things I can do to solve the problem, rather than anything to do with bringing him down. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Reduce stress... The rest will follow. You can run O statistics thru Excel all you want but at the end of the day if your primary sexual organ is shut down it doesn't matter...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

sokillme said:


> He would object to using the vibrator while you are doing it?
> 
> Do you like O? Do you get something out of it? Do you feel sexy or get something out of releasing that side of yourself?


No no. He never tells me to stop using it or prevents me from using it. He will sometimes sigh a bit when I open the drawer and reach for it, and has occasionally said "hold on" (meaning don't bring it out yet) and switched us into some new position or something. Sadly that doesn't make a difference for me. So it's not this big theatrical thing, it's just a small hesitation from him. The hesitation gets in my head though and sometimes later on I have thoughts of shame for "needing" a device to get off. It's that echo of feeling defective that rings in the back of my head. 

We talk about it sometimes after the fact and he tells me what I've posted here. That it makes it hard for him to focus because he loses control with the vibration and that he feels like it's a bit clunky. It could be as simple as him knowing that once I bring it out, I'm going to last another 5 mins tops and then the whole session will be over. Maybe he wants it to last longer. I don't know. He's definitely not a jerk about it though. 

ETA - Yes of course I like to O. I'm at the point in my life now where my patience for sex without my O is growing thin. I just want to get mine too on a consistent basis. My H will do anything in his power to get me there and he wants to give me those Os too, I just feel powerless because I don't know how to get myself there. That's kind of what spurred me making this thread. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It would be nice to O together just from PIV, but that doesn't work for most couples.

The closest my wife and I could get was back when we had sex, I could adjust using the vibrator on her so that we both finished at once, and that was very nice. Even then it only sometimes worked. 




kag123 said:


> I would disagree.
> 
> He doesn't make a huge deal about the vibrator, I just know it's not his preference and I wish it wasn't mine.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Reduce stress... The rest will follow. You can run O statistics thru Excel all you want but at the end of the day if your primary sexual organ is shut down it doesn't matter...


You seem like a guy who would appreciate my love of statistics though!  

In all seriousness - how does one reduce stress? It's an obvious answer but difficult to put into practice. How did you do it when you/your wife were going after the PhD?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Kag- is he kinky at all? You? There's some things he and you can try on the kinky end of things but only if it is something you guys would be into.


I'm open to hearing it! 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> You seem like a guy who would appreciate my love of statistics though!
> 
> In all seriousness - how does one reduce stress? It's an obvious answer but difficult to put into practice. How did you do it when you/your wife were going after the PhD?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Simple answer. We were so busy with a newborn, a toddler, and school to even think about being stressed. It was chaos, but we did not mope on it. We did what is needed to graduate. I had a slightly easier plan of study and did much of the childrearing duty too.

Try to understand what causes stress in your life. Relatives, money, work, kids, your spouse , yardwork, chauffeuring the kids, etc. Try to plan this out. I'm a superb planner and have everything laid out. 

You don't need a perfect house or be the 110% employee. Unless you're in a critical business of course. One of you will sacrifice career for work or you get a live in nanny. I chose the first. Cook in batches. Things like those. 

Most stress is self induced. My wife should have zero stress. She is constantly stressed out - on purpose - because everything has to be in her ISO 9000, Six Sigma world. She has hundreds of little rules that she freaks about. Me, about 3-4.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> I'm open to hearing it!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Basically, he controls your orgasm. He does sound willing and the problem is a lot in your head and not your vagina so you're taking your head right out of the mix. It's not up to you now. You don't have to worry if you are taking too long, being too much effort. He says how long he goes. He is in 100% control. Getting out of your own mind and letting him take full control could just relax you enough to help. 

You can kink it up to the point where he controls your orgasms so much he can make you orgasm on command but it sounds like a lot of training and time... it does work though apparently. I've read a lot of women going from not being able to O or only with a vibrator to being multi-orgasmic and Oing on command with orgasm training. 

Initial Steps Into Orgasm on Command Training | Submissive Guide

Orgasm Control

It does sound silly and counter-productive a bit but I have read many women with a hard time Oing being successful with it. Our brains are weird, sometimes just making small shifts in perception can make a huge difference.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Glad that you are starting the action.

I would also hope that he would start the action from time to time.

Hope you find some positive experiences.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Simple answer. We were so busy with a newborn, a toddler, and school to even think about being stressed. It was chaos, but we did not mope on it. We did what is needed to graduate. I had a slightly easier plan of study and did much of the childrearing duty too.
> 
> Try to understand what causes stress in your life. Relatives, money, work, kids, your spouse , yardwork, chauffeuring the kids, etc. Try to plan this out. I'm a superb planner and have everything laid out.
> 
> ...


See...if you asked me, I would say I'm not really that stressed. A few years ago, when the kids were younger and we were struggling to make ends meet, yea definitely. Now that they are older (7 and 8) and more independent, it's not as taxing at home as it used to be. They dont need constant supervision. They do a lot of work around the house too and are very self sufficient. 

Work is getting easier as time goes on. I now have 20 employees who are gold to me and have orchestrated it so that we work in synch, so no one person is overworked. My work is flexible too so that I can work from home when I need to. The times of 60+ hr work weeks are gone for me. My H's job is a bit more stressful, primarily because he is a perfectionist, but he enjoys what he does for a living so that helps a lot. 

Money problems are easing up a bit as we advance in our careers and make more money. We are comfortable financially for the first time we both can remember. 

My health problems stress me out but I don't know what to do about that. 

I had a major mental breakdown right after my kids were born, and that is when I hit rock bottom. I got on meds and got my mind back to a reasonable state, and it's only been up from there. 

In fact, it is only now that I have begun to tackle the problem of sex because this is the point in our life where all of the other stresses are finally calming down. A few years ago it was the furthest problem from my mind. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I agree with you and since I've never experienced him actually initiating as many times as he may actually want sex, I couldn't tell you how many times he might actually get rejected. For example, you stated for your marriage it is usually 1 out of 20 times she says yes. I don't know for us if it would be 1 out of 20, or 1 out of 10, or 1 out of 2, and to me those differences matter.
> 
> If I were my H, I might be comfortable taking a swing if I knew I'd get a hit at least half of the time. But if you asked me to do it and I knew the odds were only 1 out of 20, I'd be a lot less likely to put myself out there at all. I empathize that it takes a lot of vulnerability to make the advance and risk rejection.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You need to put parameters around generally how often and when for him, then tell him he must step up. You in turn will pledge to either not turn him down if it is within those params or you WILL give him a firm raincheck within 24 or ar most 48 hours. This from a guy who basically refuses to initiate. That refusal is well earned by her behaviour. But I would change that with those promises. You can do that and it is on you. You could at a minimum commit to try it for a couple or three months.

Everything else you describe is not all that out of the ordinary to me. Can't give specific advice on techniques cause my wife is different. She has the LD part but she is less clit focused in the O department so the mechanics aren't going to work the same.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Good. Then all you need is good project management. 

I'd say more fun activities for the family, trips etc. You only have a decade before they go to college, then "financially secure" becomes a synonym for "perpetually broke"

Also, the older the kids the more energy it takes. Not work, per se. Energy. As much as I hate the last decade of my marriage we accomplished what we set out to do, so it's all good.

Focus on the big picture and your kids. Hard as it may seem to be, that brought us closer.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Good. Then all you need is good project management.
> 
> I'd say more fun activities for the family, trips etc. You only have a decade before they go to college, then "financially secure" becomes a synonym for "perpetually broke"
> 
> ...


Well we have been on vacation 4 times already this year and number 5 is in a couple of weeks lol. These are our golden years with our kids. If I could freeze them at this age I would.  They are young enough to still enjoy our company and want to hang out with us but old enough to be self sufficient. 

The trip to Vegas we took together was just H and I for a week and it was on that trip that my problem with O became something at the forefront of my mind, unfortunately. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Or going the other direction from SlowlyGoingCrazy's suggestion. 

*You* control things. He is tied to the bed and you do whatever feels good - with or without a vibrator, only letting him finish once you are done. 

All depends on which of you enjoys being more sub or dom.






kag123 said:


> I'm open to hearing it!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Can he bring out / use the vibrator when he has had enough and wants both of you to finish?



kag123 said:


> snip
> snip
> . It could be as simple as him knowing that once I bring it out, I'm going to last another 5 mins tops and then the whole session will be over. Maybe he wants it to last longer. I don't know. He's definitely not a jerk about it though.
> snip


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

On Sunday we had nothing to do and spent the day around the house. In the afternoon, the kids got involved in watching a movie in the living room so I went to our bedroom to read. (My kids are old enough to not need 24/7 supervision at this point.) The door to our room was open and my H was coming in and out of the room periodically. I had thought he might stay and spend time with me of his own accord, but when it became apparent he wasn't planning to do that, I waited for him to come in the room again. When he did I patted his side of the bed and asked if he would like to stay with me. He looked at me and said "Why?". I said - to spend time with me, maybe close the door the have some "quality time"? He smirked at me and said "We can't do that, the kids are in the other room watching a movie." I told him I thought it would be fine, we could tell them we are taking a nap and that the movie was loud so we are closing the door. They wouldn't care. He chuckled at me, shook his head (like I was being unbelievable) and left the room. He didn't return. 

I was upset at his reaction, that he so casually brushed me off as if I was a complete idiot. It made me pretty angry. I had all these thoughts swirling in my head about how I felt like I went out on a limb to initiate and how he shut me down. I was embarrassed. I was irritated that I am always the one to initiate anyway. I felt ugly and stupid. 

Some of those thoughts are mine, not his. It's my own insecurity creeping up. Logically, I know that. It's still hard for me to quell it when those emotions take hold. I know some of that is just the history we have together that is in the back of my mind.

I believe that my H does not purposefully mean to inflict harm by his words and actions. I believe that he is simply ignorant sometimes (the dictionary definition of the word) and coupled with that, I am overly sensitive sometimes, and that creates a perfect storm that causes tension between us. This is what I tell myself. Perhaps it's my own coping technique, because it is less painful to think this is what is happening than to think he would actually be calculating to hurt me. 

Since we were still with our kids the rest of that day and there wasn't any way for us to have a conversation about it while they were around, I just stifled it until later. But I did act cold toward him. Not mean, just kept my distance. When I'm boiling under my skin it's hard for me to completely pretend that everything is great, so the best I can usually do is just withdraw or be silent. It's not intentionally passive aggressive by any means. It's more - I can't hash this out with you right now, so I'm going to do my best not to make things worse by being quiet. (If you don't have anything nice to say...don't say anything at all.)

By the time night came and the kids were asleep, I was still angry and it felt like it wasn't worth talking about it. I knew saying something...literally anything about it...would be like taking the lid off of Pandoras box and would cause my anger to overflow. I don't feel like spewing anger is productive towards finding a solution so I chose to keep my mouth shut. 

He knew I was upset with him. All he said was "Are you mad at me?" I replied "Yes, I am." He replied - "You are always mad at me for something." 

I didn't say another word. I just went to bed at that point before I exploded, because how could I follow that statement of his with anything good. 

It's been a couple of days and I'm still mad at how things went down, and sex has been off the table completely. We arent being rude to each other, and I am not giving him the silent treatment or anything. I cant. We've got lives to lead and a household to run together, so we still need to talk to each other about parenting and household business on a regular basis. There is just an air of iciness when things are like this. There is no friendly banter or chit chat when are fighting. Everything is reduced to business only. 

During all of this, I still have a drive for sex and I've been taking care of it myself, because I don't want to be with my H under these circumstances. I think he's waiting for me to just drop it, and initiate again with him and for things to go back to normal. That seems to be our M.O. Sex means "everything is OK" to him. The end of an argument. 

Usually my drive gets me to the point where my instincts take over. I am low drive, but I still have urges. I live with a man that I want to be with and it's hard to be completely abstinent when we live in close quarters. We still sleep in the same bed even when we are fighting. 

The first time we have sex after something like this happens, I get mad at myself afterwards. Like I gave up on my principles and nothing got resolved and that I am weak. The sex is usually not good for me either, probably because of where my head is at, and that adds to my own guilt. (Feelings of - that wasn't even worth giving in for.) I am usually still not happy with the way things played out, but then he's completely happy go lucky because if we had sex that means he's got nothing to worry about. Sex becomes loaded with meaning and gets complicated.

I don't know how to fix this dynamic. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I don't know how to fix this dynamic.


Yes you do. Say something. In the moment. Even if it isn't positive. Important truth about things that make you unhappy is "good" to convey to your spouse even if it is not pleasant. You will know your marriage is working well when you both react positively to receiving unpleasant news from your spouse. Learn to say "thank you for sharing" when your spouse shares something that is bothering them. I am guessing that once you train your husband to thank you for sharing in the moment, the make-up sex will get better for you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I had that too Kag. Like sex after meant things were fine and why am I still grumpy? Then it was that I'm never happy. See, sex or not I am not going to be happy so why bother. 

I don't know if you are at that bad of a place with it but I get the underlying "sex means it's solved" and not wanting to give in. 

I'd not initiate sex until you're satisfied with a discussion about the fight first.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> On Sunday we had nothing to do and spent the day around the house. In the afternoon, the kids got involved in watching a movie in the living room so I went to our bedroom to read. (My kids are old enough to not need 24/7 supervision at this point.) The door to our room was open and my H was coming in and out of the room periodically. I had thought he might stay and spend time with me of his own accord, but when it became apparent he wasn't planning to do that, I waited for him to come in the room again. When he did I patted his side of the bed and asked if he would like to stay with me. He looked at me and said "Why?". I said - to spend time with me, maybe close the door the have some "quality time"? He smirked at me and said "We can't do that, the kids are in the other room watching a movie." I told him I thought it would be fine, we could tell them we are taking a nap and that the movie was loud so we are closing the door. They wouldn't care. He chuckled at me, shook his head (like I was being unbelievable) and left the room. He didn't return.
> 
> I was upset at his reaction, that he so casually brushed me off as if I was a complete idiot. It made me pretty angry. I had all these thoughts swirling in my head about how I felt like I went out on a limb to initiate and how he shut me down. I was embarrassed. I was irritated that I am always the one to initiate anyway. I felt ugly and stupid.
> 
> ...


You just journaled the last 2-3 years of my life. The brushed-off initiations. The icy period that follows. Especially that last paragraph. I'd get so angry at myself when I'd finally go back to the well. I'd feel like I'd betrayed myself. Sex became fraught with negative emotion (more-so than it already was).

I never was able to figure out how to fix that dynamic either. Eventually I stopped caring. I hope you do better than I was able to.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Kag, I was smiling as I read your post. Thinking, 'welcome to my world'. I've often thought about rejecting my other halves approach after she's basically ignored me for several weeks, but I never have. 

It is a bit confusing that the single rejection hurts so much to the one who has thrown them out so casually and in such volume over the years - referring to my spouse not you there. Anyway, at least he didn't call you a sex addict / fiend / or pervert . Think it through, has he done this in the past? Any regularity? Often? If it is once or twice in the past year you have to write it off as only fair...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Kag, thinking outside the box here. Something I've read about (if you're of the rule-bending variety) that has helped a lot of marriages--MDMA. It used to be legal and widely used in marital counseling situations. It's a bit harder to come by now, but I've read accounts of it being used still to really open up lines of communication and help put resentments to bed.

If MDMA is not available, you could try molly although I wouldn't recommend it because it's often cut with other substances.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> During all of this, I still have a drive for sex and I've been taking care of it myself, because I don't want to be with my H under these circumstances. I think he's waiting for me to just drop it, and initiate again with him and for things to go back to normal. That seems to be our M.O. Sex means "everything is OK" to him. The end of an argument.


Before we got married my wife sat me down and made sure I understood that sex was still going to happen even when we were fighting. Sex is not a weapon. And the word oxygen came up in the conversation. At times we'd have to force ourselves to do it and would tell each other that we're still mad and it's not over but still managed to have sex. That has served us really well. Granted our usual sexual dynamic was/is in a better place than yours. 

Yes, you have to talk about what's bugging you and he needs to understand it's not over until you agree, but it's not like you're not going to sex with him, or?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@kag123. He should not have rejected you like that. I can understand him being uncomfortable about sex with the kids awake, but then his reaction should have been a temporary "no" with a promise to make up for it later that evening (and of course to fulfill that promise and more). 

I understand also how you feel having sex with someone who has been rejecting you. Get it all the time with my wife - she casually turns me down all the time, then expects that when *she* happens to want sex, I will always be eager. 

Sucks. 

I think the only solutions to a bad sex life are to leave, or to honestly convince yourself that it doesn't matter anymore.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

This is an ongoing problem with us. I should have been more honest with him about my feelings, but have learned that being forthright with him makes him retreat. The more I tell him, the farther he retreats. Anything negative I share with him, he hears as "I am not good enough." All further conversation is moot at that point because he's not listening. 

I've never really found a solution to that issue so instead learned it is safer to just keep it to myself unless it's critical. This doesn't fall into the category of critical so I will probably end up letting it go eventually, "Going back to the well", and then feeling a pang of guilt for it. Rinse and repeat. 

He doesn't reject me often, and it wasn't even really the rejection so much as the way he presented it. His attitude made me feel dumb. The fact that he never initiates made me feel like I am less desirable to begin with, then add being rejected (even though it was so infrequent) and I had an emotional avalanche hit me. 

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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> This is an ongoing problem with us. I should have been more honest with him about my feelings, but have learned that being forthright with him makes him retreat. The more I tell him, the farther he retreats. Anything negative I share with him, he hears as "I am not good enough." All further conversation is moot at that point because he's not listening.
> 
> I've never really found a solution to that issue so instead learned it is safer to just keep it to myself unless it's critical. This doesn't fall into the category of critical so I will probably end up letting it go eventually, "Going back to the well", and then feeling a pang of guilt for it. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> ...


We all get it! .


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Kag - a couple of thoughts from reading through your thread.

1. You may not be as low drive as you think you are. I am wondering if you have a responsive drive and you are just not getting much to respond to and/or you mind thoughts are keeping your body from responding.

2. You are your own worst enemy here - with the negative mind thoughts. I was too - and had all the same negative mind play go through my head for years. Still do way too often. Throughout this thread as you describe how you are sexually - almost everyone - and I will add my voice to this too - has told you that how you are sexually - is the way most women are. In fact - I personally believe that God made women this way on purpose. I mean if we women were like men. It would be in and out - wham bam - thank you mam all the time - with very little time spent talking, not much spending quality time together out of bed, no courting, no need for foreplay, no taking it slow and we would all be quickly having tons of orgasms, but missing a lot of pleasure that only comes from slow exploration and build up. And to top it off there would probably be very little emotional connection between the sexes. 

Bottom line - to get aroused, and to have orgasms, most women require time and effort - in and out of bed. FACT!!! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - in fact that is a very good thing. So quit fighting it.

3. You are also probably projecting your negative thoughts to your husband too. You think you are taking too long - and so you get frustrated - which makes it take even longer by the way - and then you start thinking your husband is getting frustrated that you are taking too long - when in fact he is probably just enjoying every single bit of the ride. Every single part of it, including the work only on you. 

4. A lot of women use vibrators cause it speeds things up for them. When that becomes the standard go to - to have an orgasm - weather it be alone or with your husband - it can become a crutch. But you can retrain yourself to not use them and come during oral or manual stimulation - and possibly through PIV, if you really want to and are willing to do the work. 

I never used a vibrator until I hit menopause and then started having problems having orgasms. Once I started using them, I found I could not have one unless I used a Hitachi wand. My body got use to the intense vibration - and I had to retrain it to respond to other stimulation again. I started by retraining it to respond to other vibrators. Not all worked, but I found a couple of smaller ones that did. In my retraining efforts I figured out just how much of a part my brain plays in the whole process and I started concentrating on the pleasure and not worrying about orgasms, I found that fantasizing helped a lot with increasing the pleasure levels. This was not a simple process - and it took a lot of time - a lot of reading and research too. 

I had been trying on and off to cum without any vibrator and was not successful for many months - until one night. I was really really horny. We had gone to visit one of our married kids - and I didn't pack the vibrator. We had sex late one night - but I didn't cum. As I lay there - totally frustrated - and hubby was snoring contently by my side. I started to just rub myself - using a lot of lube - and started playing scenes in my head that turned me on. It took a while - I think it was close to 2 hours (I would quit for several minutes and then start up again), and I finally went over the edge. Let me tell you - it was really a very intense orgasm. 

Once I knew it was possible - I kept trying to do it again, and again - solo only at first and when I was really really horny (I stopped using the vibrator completely - so I was horny a lot) I only did it when I had a lot of time but I also put a time limit on it so that I concentrated mostly on feeling pleasure - and stopped after the time limit even if I had not cum yet (this helped make me even hornier the next time). I found the more it happened, the more I got use to orgasming manually and the easier it became. When I could cum regularly without a vibrator alone - then I started working on doing it with hubby. I did a similar technique with learning to have multiples and now also have multiples regularly. Now I am working on having an orgasm with PIV and no other stimulation. I have had success stopping all other stimulation right before going over the edge - so that the actual orgasm is PIV happened with thrusting onlu, so I think this too may be possible. But frankly - manual stimulation is still brings about the more intense orgasms - so not really all that concerned about it. I am more or less just curious if it can also be learned. Experience thus far is telling me it can. 

So what I am telling you is - having orgasms is a learned skill and your body can be trained and retrained to respond to various forms of stimulation - if you work at teaching it too. And you CAN teach and older dog new tricks. 

But it takes positive thinking - keep trying and thinking that it can be done and lots of practice. I would say 2 or 3 times a week if you can. Stop berating yourself - you are totally normal and the way you are is actually helpful to your marriage, you just need to start working and communicating with your husband instead of doing the negative mind thinking for the both of you. 

Don't ever forget that your brain is your biggest sex organ and plays an important part in the learning process. Use it!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Kag - a couple of thoughts from reading through your thread.
> 
> 1. You may not be as low drive as you think you are.


Yep I don't think @kag123 is low drive at all, that said I think her husband is low drive and probably not particularly good at sex either.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Mary I cannot agree more with your post. Spot on. 
And yes, all those "sexual issues" are just being a woman. Somehow we need to teach more girls that it's normal because I had the same thoughts. I took too long, was too complicated, needed too much effort. 
Maybe the porn type ideas of women suddenly orgasming loudly as soon as he puts it in are messing with our sense of what is normal and not.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the thoughtful response. 

Yes, I do suffer from negative thinking. Right now I'm in a depression spiral, and until I can pull myself out of it I don't think I can really absorb and practice your advice - though I do think it makes sense. 

When I am low, I am very low. It isn't really to do with the rejection from the other day or any specific event. Just my mental health taking a sharp dive, I think. Hard to implement any positive changes or have the motivation to work towards anything when I get like this. It pretty much takes all of my energy to shower, get myself to work, and force myself to eat. 

I'm not sure if anyone else on this thread suffers from mental health issues and gets it? 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Personal said:


> Yep I don't think @kag123 is low drive at all, that said I think her husband is low drive and probably not particularly good at sex either.


I guess I don't know what the metrics are for someone to be "low drive". When I say it, I mean it in the context of my marriage. I have a lower drive than my husband, based on what he states his is. 

I don't think he's "bad at sex" by any means and I don't think that is even a fair statement for anyone here to make. 

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have depression Kag. And anxiety. I totally get it. 

Every little thing becomes too much. It's physically and mentally exhausting and the smallest things can set you off. 

For me to have the ability to make positive changes I need to be on meds. Meds don't necessarily take my depression away but make me ok enough to deal with it. To have the motivation to walk and write and fight it. 

Talk to your dr. May be time for a medication adjustment.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think HD and LD are important only relative to your partner. 

I view someone as "bad at sex" if they do not do their best to please their partners.



kag123 said:


> I guess I don't know what the metrics are for someone to be "low drive". When I say it, I mean it in the context of my marriage. I have a lower drive than my husband, based on what he states his is.
> 
> I don't think he's "bad at sex" by any means and I don't think that is even a fair statement for anyone here to make.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Likely simply uneducated about sex instead of bad at it. If the desire is there he can be a good sexual partner but may need some learning about good foreplay, what's normal for a woman. 

The vast majority of men I've found were pretty bad at sex to be honest. Some were clearly teachable, some were clearly not.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Oh, I am on meds. And I've been on every med in the book over the past 9 years, trying to find something that works. I finally found something I can live with which is what I am taking right now. It's not side effect free, but it's tolerable. I used to be on a higher dose of this a couple of years ago. It made me a zombie. I got it down to no longer feeling like a zombie, but that means the bad stuff... anxiety and depression... still creep through sometimes. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think HD and LD are important only relative to your partner.
> 
> I view someone as "bad at sex" if they do not do their best to please their partners.


He does everything I've ever asked him or allowed (key word) him to do, and more - so he does not meet that definition in this case. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Likely simply uneducated about sex instead of bad at it. If the desire is there he can be a good sexual partner but may need some learning about good foreplay, what's normal for a woman.
> 
> The vast majority of men I've found were pretty bad at sex to be honest. Some were clearly teachable, some were clearly not.


Why would it be the man's fault though - how could you call him "uneducated" - if his partner doesn't give direction or "teach" him how to please? 

No two women are the same, right? So even the most experienced man would need to learn new tricks when he's with a new woman. 

He has tried every move in the rolodex and is it his fault if none of them work? 

I see it as a communication issue whose fault lies squarely on MY shoulders, not his. I don't know how to help myself- how can I expect anyone else to know how to do it? 

If anything- I am the one who deserves the title of "bad at sex"!

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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Why would it be the man's fault though - how could you call him "uneducated" - if his partner doesn't give direction or "teach" him how to please?
> 
> No two women are the same, right? So even the most experienced man would need to learn new tricks when he's with a new woman.
> 
> ...


It's not tricks or moves so much as general understanding. All of your "sexual problems" are just being a woman. You need foreplay, not just genital stimulation as foreplay but the rest of you too meaning he shouldn't be going right for your vagina until you are already turned on, slow build up, it takes time. The amount of time it takes you is well within normal. You needing clitoral stimulation is most women. You not being able to go from 0-orgasm is totally normal. 

These shouldn't be things either of you are trying to work around or fix but embrace as part of the entire event.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I guess I don't know what the metrics are for someone to be "low drive". When I say it, I mean it in the context of my marriage. I have a lower drive than my husband, based on what he states his is.


As the only person initiating sexual relations within your marriage you prove through your actions that you have a significantly higher sexual drive than your husband.



kag123 said:


> I don't think he's "bad at sex" by any means and I don't think that is even a fair statement for anyone here to make.


On this we shall have to agree to disagree.



kag123 said:


> He will also do very subtle things and claim that I rejected him. For example, we might be watching TV and he will put his hand on my knee while we are on the couch, and if I shift position because I am uncomfortable and his hand is no longer on my knee this is me rejecting him. He will never say that to me though. It took me years to realize that these tiny little gestures were something huge to him, and that I did something without even realizing it that he interpreted as my rejection. When I had no idea something like touching my knee was his initiating sex. I think we've mostly gotten past this now, but this hit the fan a couple of years ago and I was floored when it did...mostly floored that I was apparently causing so much angst by rejecting him and wasn't even aware I was doing it.





kag123 said:


> I think the longest we've gone without sex in my recent memory was 5 weeks. That was with me letting the issue drop and seeing what happened. I was MB during that time to get myself by. That alone made me feel very crummy about what I was doing, because being the lower drive spouse I try to reserve all of my desire for him instead of taking care of it myself. By the end of 5 weeks he stopped me in the bedroom one day and said "Are we ever going to have sex again?" Just like that lol. Even though that wasn't quite what I wanted in terms of initiating (definitely not sexy or romantic), I had been waiting and waiting for him to even notice so that ended the standoff right then and there. 5 weeks is a long time even for me so I was pretty much scaling the walls at that point and didn't want to make him jump through any more hoops.


I also think your husband is manipulative and passive aggressive towards you as well.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes - let's agree to disagree. 

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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It may not be anyone's "fault". 






kag123 said:


> He does everything I've ever asked him or allowed (key word) him to do, and more - so he does not meet that definition in this case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You two are clearly not compatible sexually. Doesn't mean either of you is incompetent or inept. It is like trying to plug a US power cord into a EU plug. Doesn't work. Both items are fully functionally but completely incompatible. If either or both of you were paired with the correct partner, both would be competent. As it is, you create much frustration.

I sympathize. My wife and I are the same.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I sympathize. My wife and I are the same.


Yes and like @kag123 and her husband, none of you are bad people for not connecting well sexually.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

While it does not sound like your in the same boat as this blogger, she does have a number of articles on how to increase libido.

https://forgivenwife.com/can-fake-it-to-make-it-really-work-with-sex/


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

You are a loving caring spouse, actively working for solutions. I hope you realize how special you are and deserving of what you seek. 

I skipped a few pages, but wanted to chime in anyways.

Mating in Captivity, by Esther Perel, is a really good book that might help you see yourself with some compassion.

Sort of like mary35 said, it doesn't sound like you two talk enough about the difficulties, or effectively.

I don't get the impression your husband is eager to please, or putting the same level of effort on improving your sex life together. It's confusing to hear there are things that might work for you but he doesn't like them -- when he is the one who apparently would like you to be more frequently interested. (Maybe I missed or misunderstood some things.)

My concern isn't to blame him or you. The danger, if he is not putting in effort here, is resentment kills connection before one realizes it's even there. YOUR needs in this are important, and not owning them in conversations with yourself and not expressing them to him will slowly rob you of your ability to feel connected to him when you are being physically vulnerable, making matters much worse. Not saying this is what is happening, just suggesting you give it some thought if you haven't. I could be wrong, but I sensed maybe there is something to think about there.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Good post @PieceOfSky. It reminded me of one more book suggestion, _How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It_ by Love and Stosny. Really helped me and I think there'd be some good take away in it for you.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for that response. I'm still in a dark place so it's hard for me to respond but I didn't want any of you to think that I don't appreciate you trying to help me. 

I have a profound feeling that where I am is my fault, not my husbands. I'm not saying he's perfect. No one is. I just do not blame him for any of this. I still feel lucky to have him and grateful he is here. Quite honestly, if I had to live with me on a regular basis, I'd have left a long time ago. I'm not easy to have for a wife. Not just sex, overall.

I have real problems telling my H anything negative. Even what is meant as constructive criticism I find difficult to say. I do not like hurting his feelings. I care too much about him. I am an empath. When he hurts, I feel it in my bones, as if the pain happened to me. (It is the same with my children.) 

I know this sounds like I am extremely fragile. Maybe deep down I am. But when I have something negative to say, when it's something serious, I need to know he is either A) going to hold steady and not react at all or B) react in a gracious and kind manner. I need lots of positive reinforcement. Otherwise I will clam up, and find it easier to say nothing. 

Needing or expecting that reaction from him (or from anyone you are delivering bad news to) isn't realistic. My logical mind knows that I cannot control his reactions. My logical mind knows I shouldn't try, and that I shouldn't own what is not mine to own. That does not stop me from feeling this way.

IMO - My H does not deal with my criticisms well. This isn't just related to sex, it's anything. He does not get angry or anything. He just withdraws and is hurt. Some of it may be how I say things. I am very blunt. I cannot sugarcoat things to save my life. 

There are very few people in my life that I truly care about. I am a very closed person and prefer to keep my circle tight. The only people "in" my circle are my husband and two kids. Everyone else is outside of that line, even my best friends, even my parents. If you are outside the circle, I keep you at arms length. I can be honest and I don't really care what you think about it. You can be mad at me or hate me, and I can just walk away without sweating it. For those "in" the circle, it is different. I care too much. I am invested. These relationships are more demanding of me. 

I do not need to be 100% transparent with my two kids, it is not necessary or even prudent. So my relationship with my husband - that is really the only one that requires this level of transparency. It completely stresses me out and brings me great joy, all at the same time. This push and pull, of wanting to be closer but simultaneously wanting to run...I've never found a way to completely live on one side or the other. I'm always right in the center of that seesaw, one foot on either side, sometimes leaning left and sometimes leaning right. 

I think my husband is the same. We are more alike than different. I see the same stress and fear in him sometimes that I recognize in myself. 

I have always been my own ship. I steer my own course, I correct my own mistakes, I travel vast oceans and do not feel lonely. Meshing myself into someone else's life has been one of the hardest things I've ever done. I've never let someone else onto my ship before. I'm 9 years into this (13 years together total, 9 married) and still feel uncomfortable at times with our proximity and how entangled our lives are. Isn't that bizarre? 

My point is, that I know I could do a better job at opening up and communicating to him. I know that if my H read my posts here, he may actually be shocked to learn some of what I've written, because I cannot say that I've ever really told him all of it. Bits and pieces, sure. But I always make sure I have a "no big deal" attitude when we have a serious conversation because it makes ME feel better about it. I feel like I can easily steer the conversation back to safety if it's getting into murky waters that way. I think that gives the impression that I really don't care, when I care quite a bit. So I do not blame my husband for not knowing or not understanding. 

I don't like to talk about serious things with him - as evidenced by the above. I also don't like to be touched. I am very bad at non-sexual affection. And it is one of my husbands top needs. Of course, right. The one thing that is most difficult for me to give.
I need and crave space. Mental space, emotional space, and physical space. It is all part of the same coin. 

I do not like to kiss. We almost never kiss. I try to do it for his benefit but I truly, truly, do not like it. I do not like to hold hands, or have an arm around me. Over time I have gotten used to having him put his hand on my leg, and that is OK. Sitting beside each other on the couch (both of us touching) or spooning in bed is OK too. Hugging, being touched in passing, especially when I am doing something and don't expect it (like cooking and he comes up behind me and touches me), it is a reflex for me to quickly move away or push him away. My animal brain goes into flight mode. 

No, I have never suffered any abuse in my past. 

I have tried to retrain myself to enjoy affection. There are times when I can enjoy it, but it's still not nearly enough for my H. Since I bristle at his touch- it makes any initiation attempts by him awkward. How do you initiate sex with someone if you can't touch them or kiss them? It's not personal to him. I have always been like this with every man in my life. I am like this with friends and family. I hate being hugged hello or goodbye in social settings. I'll do it to be polite, but if I know you well, I'll eventually tell you "Sorry, I'm not a hugger." Even my parents don't try to hug me anymore lol. 

Sometimes I think that what worked so well about us is that we are both so closed off. He was very "cool" when I met him, and I had a lot of other relationships with guys where I felt very smothered by them. He was never needy. He still isn't. He is very non-threatening to me, I felt like I could set the pace and relax around him. I know he isn't going to push me out of my comfort zone, and I am not going to push him out of his.

Only sometimes - I do want someone who will push me. 

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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

So, when is that sometimes and what is it you want? Most importantly I guess - do you know it when you want it?

If you know when and what it is you could explain it to him and give him a signal. Light a candle, wear something specific, whatever...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Honestly I don't think there is a "fault" here Kag. You or your husband. 

I can relate to the touching thing. In general I have a very don't touch me feeling. I think it's great that you found ways you are comfortable with. Same with wanting to run my own ship, not letting people too close. I'm the kind of person who will struggle opening a jar for an hour and won't ask for help. I don't want to need people. I don't make friends but do also get hyper-attached to others. I'll listen to everyone around me talk about their problems and I just never do. I'm fairly secretive and private and a very small number of people know me at all. 
Sounds like we are a lot alike in many ways. 

I ended up needing someone who would take charge and push me out of myself and I needed to give in and go against my brain and let myself get stripped down to vulnerable and not in control of anything. 
That's how I found my peace but you may need something else. 

With talking to him, try to find ways to spin it into positives. 

A poster linked a quiz thing today, could be a way to get a conversation going without really having to start a conversation and it can be positive. Let's find some stuff we might like! 

Interactive Sex Questionnaire for Couples | Mojo Upgrade

Then the conversation can go from there. If you have some things on there he didn't know about, knowing you want to try it may make him more comfortable initiating it too. No risk of rejection


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

What people are saying is that he should be encouraging you to use it - to try and make the overall experience better for you. 





kag123 said:


> I would disagree.
> 
> He doesn't make a huge deal about the vibrator, I just know it's not his preference and I wish it wasn't mine.
> 
> ...


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