# dominant woman, please advise



## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

first off, i'm not a cat lover really. more a dog person. but i dig the anonymity.

also, in the interest of transparency, this isn't about a marriage. but it is about a serious, committed, monogamous relationship. 

our relationship isn't very conventional. it's conventionally the man who plays the dominant role. he and i are both unconventional though. we're both more heterosexual than not, but i express a bit more masculinity than the average woman. he expresses more femininity than the average guy. if you want the technical term, we are both psychologically androgynous.

there's very deep compatibility - emotional, mental, physical and spiritual. we haven't been together a very long time, but i can tell it will be for the long haul. 

this post is actually for advice on two issues. the first is the dominance and submission. he and i both prefer to be submissive in bed - most women who are more dominant outside the bedroom like to submit in bed. but the thing is, neither of us really wants to take the active role in the bedroom. so, we get into these very, very subdued power struggles about it. and that's sad because we both really enjoy expressing our sexual interest in each other and connecting in that way - we're just both not enthusiastic about being the one who's in charge of it.

i end up taking the dominant role in bed more often than i'm used to, but i don't really like it. i'm wondering about ways i might become more interested in dominating him in bed, when i feel lackluster about it. or ways i might be able to have him more interested in being the dominant one in the bedroom.

this relates to the second issue i'm hoping for feedback on - generosity. when i state emotional needs, he's very very good at being supportive. but most of the time, i feel like i'm much more generous than he is. more willing to do the things i am not so crazy about doing. i am even being a stereotypical woman about it - i want him to WANT to be generous. i want him to WANT to be more enthusiastic about dominating me in bed, even if he isn't crazy about it, because it will please me, and because you tend to want to share the burdens and joys equally with someone you really care about. (he has called me the lady who stole his heart.)

i would like to bring these things up with him in a conversation, but i can tell he's likely to get very defensive about the generosity thing. and the upsides of this relationship are incredible - but it's unrealistic to expect no issues to sort through just because you have found your soul mate. we're both the babies of the family, which may have something to do with it.

so, do you have advice for how i might come to enjoy dominating in bed more than i enjoy it now, or how i might get him more naturally enthusiastic about dominating me in bed when he is naturally submissive? and how i might either come to release the budding discontent about the generosity, or a way to encourage more generosity from him without triggering defensiveness?

thanks very much for your ideas, encouragement, suggestions, whatever you may offer.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

Your situation is rather unusual and people will have difficulty finding helpful advice.

The only thing I can tell you is that you appear to have found your _almost_-perfect other half ... but you are so obsessed with the "almost" that the "perfect" part is getting harder and harder to see.

Most relationships, even really good relationships, have a lot more "almost" in them than they do "perfect".

My advice is, appreciate and enjoy what you have and quit worrying about what you don't have.

Good luck.


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## peacefully (Nov 13, 2009)

I can't think of advice to give you specifically, however I'd suggest that you talk as openly as you can about your feelings and about what you want. You say that you have not been together for that long, but that you have a solid bond, which is a great start!
Start out how you want to end up. If you start holding back your wants and desires now, that is how you will end up- frustrated and possibly resentful. The more open you can be with your partner about what you want and need, the better, as this will give him a chance to make you happy. Give him that opportunity by communicating with him.

AlexNY:



> Most relationships, even really good relationships, have a lot more "almost" in them than they do "perfect".


THAT is a GREAT piece of advice!
I think most of us can get stuck seeking perfect, when 'almost' is usually pretty great... Plus, it's always great to feel like there is room for improvement! Besides, when things are too 'perfect' we tend to lost interest...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Have you expressed these needs verbally to your partner? It sounds like you have not. For the dominance, just tell him "i'd like to play passive today." or "Would you be willing to tie my hands?" Be sure to mention things like, "It really turns me on when you are more aggressive" or something like that. As for the generosity (not sure what you mean there, kind of vague), again, just ask for it. "I need more generosity in my life. Will you surprise me sometimes by doing x, y, or z type things?" If you don't verbalize, he may not get it. You can eventually ask him to take on the dominant/generous role without your prompting sometimes, explaining that you feel unimportant when he fails to remember that these things are important to you. But get in the habit of asking directly for what you want and telling him how you feel. Good luck.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

AlexNY said:


> Your situation is rather unusual and people will have difficulty finding helpful advice.
> 
> The only thing I can tell you is that you appear to have found your _almost_-perfect other half ... but you are so obsessed with the "almost" that the "perfect" part is getting harder and harder to see.
> 
> ...


this is a very good point.
thank you for acknowledging that this is a fairly unusual situation, and you are right that i'm letting the almost seem bigger than the perfect.

i don't know if i am worrying about what i don't have, it's more like i am not feeling as valued because i am making more of the compromises in bed. but point taken anyway 


peacefully said:


> I can't think of advice to give you specifically, however I'd suggest that you talk as openly as you can about your feelings and about what you want. You say that you have not been together for that long, but that you have a solid bond, which is a great start!
> Start out how you want to end up. If you start holding back your wants and desires now, that is how you will end up- frustrated and possibly resentful. The more open you can be with your partner about what you want and need, the better, as this will give him a chance to make you happy. Give him that opportunity by communicating with him.
> 
> AlexNY:
> ...


very good point you made as well.


sisters359 said:


> Have you expressed these needs verbally to your partner? It sounds like you have not. For the dominance, just tell him "i'd like to play passive today." or "Would you be willing to tie my hands?" Be sure to mention things like, "It really turns me on when you are more aggressive" or something like that. As for the generosity (not sure what you mean there, kind of vague), again, just ask for it. "I need more generosity in my life. Will you surprise me sometimes by doing x, y, or z type things?" If you don't verbalize, he may not get it. You can eventually ask him to take on the dominant/generous role without your prompting sometimes, explaining that you feel unimportant when he fails to remember that these things are important to you. But get in the habit of asking directly for what you want and telling him how you feel. Good luck.


thanks for the response. i have talked to him about who takes the dominant role in bed, we both know through conversation that neither of us enjoys it as much.

here is an example of the generosity. for Valentine's Day, he started out with a suggestion of going to play pool. i didn't like that as an idea, so i said i was interested in seeing that new movie called Valentine's Day. he responded by saying he would go see that movie if i paid for both of us. it just did not strike me as an attitude of willingness to do something you're not naturally thrilled about because it's what your partner prefers. 

he has said he doesn't like to be on top because it's more work. i understand that, but i've suggested several times that we go very slowly, because it's fun to tease yourself that way and because it is less work to do that. he has tried, but i guess he gets carried away. and i know i don't need to take that personally, but my self esteem still doesn't like that he considers sex with me to be work if he is on top.

thanks to everyone for the ideas. i guess, the way he responded to seeing that movie, it has me a little gun shy about expressing my wants and needs, because now i'm afraid he won't want to respond in a way that honors my wants and needs if it involves doing things a way he wouldn't naturally prefer. but if i am already feeling like there is an unbalance of giving and receiving, i do need to speak up about it. and remind myself of all the ways it's going well.

thanks again


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It seems like, in both situations, what you're really talking about is selfishness. He wants you to do the work in bed so it's easy on him. In essence, he wants a hooker. And he wants you to do the work in the relationship so HE is the one being taken care of. You may want to look a little more closely at that dynamic before you say you're perfect for each other.

That said, the bedroom thing is easy. Go to B&N and buy 52 Invitations for Grrreat Sex by Laura Corn (I think). It contains 26 invitations for YOU to give him for a great night. It contains 26 invitations for HIM to give YOU for a great night. In your situation, I would specify that you are more than willing to 'invite' him to a great night, but you firmly - FIRMLY - expect him to reciprocate. To that end, once you invite him and make sure he has a great night...well, there may not be another one until HE reciprocates and invites YOU to one.

Not to be rude, but to show him that he CAN put a little effort into sex and get a great reward for it. 

As for relations, this is just going to have to be you being honest. You are making what's called a Disrespectful Judgment on another site. It means that you are ASSUMING what he will say or do, and basing your decisions and actions on that assumption. That is unfair to him, and you. Just tell him. Now, that said, I think it will work better if you think about it and come up with some concrete examples of things that you know matter to him, and get him to think about how he would feel if you chose not to ensure he got those things, just because you'd prefer to be waited on or treated like a princess. Point out that this is how you're beginning to feel - that he wants all the stuff HE likes to get, but he's not willing to reciprocate so that YOU enjoy the same feelings.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> It seems like, in both situations, what you're really talking about is selfishness. He wants you to do the work in bed so it's easy on him. In essence, he wants a hooker. And he wants you to do the work in the relationship so HE is the one being taken care of. You may want to look a little more closely at that dynamic before you say you're perfect for each other.
> 
> That said, the bedroom thing is easy. Go to B&N and buy 52 Invitations for Grrreat Sex by Laura Corn (I think). It contains 26 invitations for YOU to give him for a great night. It contains 26 invitations for HIM to give YOU for a great night. In your situation, I would specify that you are more than willing to 'invite' him to a great night, but you firmly - FIRMLY - expect him to reciprocate. To that end, once you invite him and make sure he has a great night...well, there may not be another one until HE reciprocates and invites YOU to one.
> 
> ...


great post. plenty right there. in the past i was the one seen as selfish, so it's interesting to be on the other side of it.

i am a good catch, or even a great one. i don't even know if he's aware of coming across this way, i do hope he will be interested in a better balance. especially since there really are a lot of great positives here, some i am not sure i would find in another relationship. but. if he is not willing to modify a few things because my needs aren't being met, it's much better to learn about that now. i will prepare to talk about this with him, with some concrete examples. he's actually good at being empathetic, but examples would help anyway. thanks for the post.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

That detail helps. He is being fairly selfish and please do not make the mistake of thinking you can be ok with it. Mutual satisfaction in bed and the kind of generosity you describe are really important, not superficial things. Selfish people are often immature and/or co-dependent, so take a long look at what you are getting from this relationship and figure out why it is so satisfying. Sex isn't everything, but unsatisfying sex will destroy a relationship sooner or later (and great sex doesn't save a relationship, either). 

Good luck with that talk, and I hope it works out.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> That detail helps. He is being fairly selfish and please do not make the mistake of thinking you can be ok with it. Mutual satisfaction in bed and the kind of generosity you describe are really important, not superficial things. Selfish people are often immature and/or co-dependent, so take a long look at what you are getting from this relationship and figure out why it is so satisfying. Sex isn't everything, but unsatisfying sex will destroy a relationship sooner or later (and great sex doesn't save a relationship, either).
> 
> Good luck with that talk, and I hope it works out.


thank you. no, i am seeing quickly that i would not be okay with significant, regular selfishness in a long-term relationship.

i'm seeing that is what my bedroom role thing is really about. the sex is actually satisfying, but the selfishness isn't. it's the idea that i am expected to do all the work that is getting to me, the sex itself is good. when he finishes too soon he has no problem helping me finish myself (past guys were intimidated by the toys).

i'm thinking this may partly be because we're both the baby of the family, used to getting our way. but this would grate on me after a while. i hope he sees the potential here and will be responsive when i say i don't want to resent him for this. 

i may tell him i feel like the give/receive balance is off, but i don't think it would be fair for me to demand that he give more. instead, i'll be giving less, but i want him to know it's not that i'm no longer interested in the relationship, it's just a way to make some changes on my end so it feels more fair and so i don't start resenting him because of my own choice to be giving. tell him this may include some nights where we don't have sex at all if he is unwilling to enthusiastically take me. that i enjoy the sex, but i don't need it and it's not really worth it to me to feel like i'm pulling more weight. that i hope he values me and the relationship enough to make some changes, but it's not something i will expect either. 

i dunno... talking to myself a bit here, trying to get clear on what i wish to say. open to feedback if anyone cares to offer it. he didn't even give me anything for Vday, and we have only been dating a little over a month, and his paychecks weren't going through right, but then he spent $25 on a video game. so yeah, pretty selfish. 

definitely positive qualities there too, and the compatibility is almost scary, but this is one area that has started to get to me. all i can do is express how it is for me, hope he cares enough to make an effort, and accept whatever comes from it. plus, i know i am low-maintenance, so i know it's bollocks to frame this as me being too needy. i deserve to feel valued and appreciated, that happened a lot in the beginning but it's like he feels too safe to bother with effort now, and that's not cutting it for me.

thanks for the replies everyone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've only been dating a month?

Ummm...that seems a little early to be taking this all so seriously. And making grand plans. JMO.

I assume you've been having sex every night, then? Maybe if the frequency were reduced, the quality would improve? Just talking out loud.

At any rate, if you've only dated a month, it's a safe bet he hasn't even wasted time thinking about you six months from now. So maybe you're getting ahead of yourself; i.e., maybe you should just step back and have fun for now?

How do you know his paychecks weren't going through? Does that mean that he asked you to pay for dinner or movie or whatnot? Did you VERIFY that his checks weren't going through? IDK, that's a big red flag for me.

fwiw:


> i'm thinking this may partly be because we're both the baby of the family, used to getting our way.


Oh yeah! My D19 just got out of a relationship with a baby of the family, and you could plot his actions to the T. That said, I'll respectfully ask you (no offense), but what does that say about you, as well? Is it possible that you are reading too much into what he is or isn't giving because _you_ have a heightened sense of worth? I'm only asking because you're the one here, so it can't hurt to look at this honestly.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> You've only been dating a month?
> 
> Ummm...that seems a little early to be taking this all so seriously. And making grand plans. JMO.
> 
> ...


we've both made very casual, but heartfelt, statements about the future. such as a comment about a debate continuing for a long time. or he recently made a statement about spending time together in the summer. 

we don't spend every day together. we haven't even had sex every single time we're together. but when we do, it's either him on top but he is whiny about it, me on top, from behind (less common), or both on our sides but that hurts my back the next day.

it's more the attitude about it than the position itself, which i'm only realizing since talking about it.

but this is not just me talking about it as if it's long term. he talks that way too. we're both committed - if anything, it feels like we already passed that infatuation phase and are already in that phase of comfort and routine. it feels safe, because we feel like we know each other so well. 

but we only spend a couple nights a week together.

he was the one who said something about his paychecks. it relates to the semester just starting and him having a job with the university. takes longer to process the checks when the semester starts. he volunteered that, but no i didn't go behind his back to see if he was lying (if that's even what you meant). he mentioned it after i gave him a couple homemade Vday gifts and he didn't have anything to give me (again, selfish attitude). it was his way of providing an explanation/excuse. i'm usually good at knowing if someone is lying, but i didn't do anything sneaky to confirm he was telling the truth.

i do know he actually has a job though. 

so, in case it wasn't clear, it's not that we have only been dating casually for a month. we've been in a committed, monogamous relationship for a month.

re: the both being the baby. i would not say at all that i have a heightened sense of worth. if anything, i have only had a healthy sense of worth in the last five years - over twenty years of not feeling healthy self-worth. i don't think i am expecting too much here, and i don't think i am just huffy because i'm not constantly getting my way. i'm pretty self-aware most of the time, but that theory feels totally off to me. like i think i said before, i used to be the one who was seen as selfish. nowadays, no one who knows me would see me that way. this is not about wanting to get my way constantly, it's about wanting this to be balanced. there's nothing wrong with that. 

and, i don't think i've projected this any farther into the future than he has. if anything, it feels like we somehow short-circuited the typical three months that is standard for the infatuation phase. could be the insane amount of compatibility means we both think we know the other and are less focused on actively finding out about each other - after many situations of seeing how we are exactly the same. the selfishness (and the aloofness) are more like he is the mirror of the me i used to be. 

i know the timing doesn't seem like much, but we aren't rushing. and i'm not fast-forwarding any more than he is. but, if i were you, i would likely respond the same way. i do understand the motivation to tell me to chill out and relax and enjoy it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's cool. Just asking to make sure you've considered everything. I've seen a lot of people go down the wrong solution path because they didn't. Sounds like you have a good handle on it.

I was asking about the paycheck, to see if he has never paid for going out. If he used 'no paycheck' as an excuse to get you to pay for everything. If that were the case, I would run! But if it was just for V Day, I'd chalk it up to selfishness.

The first year I was married, my H kept saying he didn't believe in 'having to' give gifts on birthdays and V Day, etc., just because 'society' said he had to. My next birthday, in June, he didn't give me a present. Gave that same excuse. Didn't want to 'have to' - he preferred to just surprise me on other days, whenever HE felt like it. I kind of stewed on it for awhile; then, in December, I ignored his birthday. Just wished him a happy birthday, and went about my business. WOW, was he upset! When he grilled me about it, about hurting his feelings that way, I just shrugged and said 'well, you said you didn't believe in having to give gifts for birthdays when you decided not to give ME anything in June; so I assumed that YOU wouldn't want anything, either.' What was he going to say? Needless to say, next year, I got a gift.

What's his relationship with his parents like?


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> That's cool. Just asking to make sure you've considered everything. I've seen a lot of people go down the wrong solution path because they didn't. Sounds like you have a good handle on it.
> 
> I was asking about the paycheck, to see if he has never paid for going out. If he used 'no paycheck' as an excuse to get you to pay for everything. If that were the case, I would run! But if it was just for V Day, I'd chalk it up to selfishness.
> 
> ...


ouch. thank you for sharing some of your experience, helps me get a better idea of what others go through and whether my own experience is normal or common. my guy has moments of being very sweet, and incredibly supportive. financially and materially he is cheap, makes no bones about saying so. but before he understood that i didn't mind paying for myself, he was paying for both of us. oh, and i will add, he is a poet. so i suppose the cheapness could be a side effect of living that identity. 

what's weird is, before we went out for Vday i told him i planned on giving him something - i did not want him to feel awkward if i got him something and he didn't do the same. when i said i planned on giving him something he asked if i was trying to one-up him. explained that i just thought he would want to know. but then he didn't give me anything, and i think he prefers to be mysterious - so, i don't know if he really planned to get me something before the money issue came up or what. 

i only recently found out which area of town he lives in. like i mentioned, he does the aloof thing. i used to do that myself, so i know the way to push him out the door is to press for more info. because that was me. but i do know his experience with his parents was similar to mine, they could be critical at times and had this way of subtle invalidation for any perspective that went counter to their own. his parents are still together though. no idea when he plans for me to meet them, and as aloof as he is i don't plan to press the issue any time soon. i don't really mind, at this point, that we usually go to my turf. 

oh, if we are trying to figure him out, he is an INTP and a Taurus. i'm an INFP and a Scorpio. lots of intensity and willfulness. he prefers to be logical, but he could be the most emotionally supportive man i've ever known. i guess he is modeling how he wants me to respond whenever he gets the courage to be emotionally open with me. or maybe it's a side effect of his femininity that he is so supportive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or, he might not be putting that much thought into it. Just sayin'...


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> Or, he might not be putting that much thought into it. Just sayin'...


point taken.

one of his friends said, while i was sitting there, that this friend has never seen him this happy. but there is no reason to assume, with his femininity, he would be thinking like a woman at this point regarding the relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When I lift weights it raises my testosterone levels and aggression levels. 

I agree about the emotional projection thing. I either do or don't do what my wife wants. Mostly I do what she wants. I ALWAYS do it with a smile and enthusiasm because the whole point of it is to make her feel loved/wanted happy and it totally ruins it if I act sour about doing whatever it is. 

Is he willing to alternate with you on the dominant side? Are there certain things that he finds fun in the dominant role that make it more fun for him? 




catlover said:


> first off, i'm not a cat lover really. more a dog person. but i dig the anonymity.
> 
> also, in the interest of transparency, this isn't about a marriage. but it is about a serious, committed, monogamous relationship.
> 
> ...


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> When I lift weights it raises my testosterone levels and aggression levels.
> 
> I agree about the emotional projection thing. I either do or don't do what my wife wants. Mostly I do what she wants. I ALWAYS do it with a smile and enthusiasm because the whole point of it is to make her feel loved/wanted happy and it totally ruins it if I act sour about doing whatever it is.
> 
> Is he willing to alternate with you on the dominant side? Are there certain things that he finds fun in the dominant role that make it more fun for him?


what emotional projection thing are you talking about?

the enthusiasm makes a significant difference. may i ask, did you always automatically do it this way, or was there a point where she had to say, honey, it would help if you'd not act sour in doing what i ask'?

he is *technically* willing to alternate, but he is so blase and whiny about it. it isn't too fun for me to be dominated in bed when all the nonverbals say this isn't fun, i'm not enjoying it. i'm just not sure how to address that either, but i would imagine a large part of it is mental. in the beginning, i disliked being in the dominant role because i wasn't used to it and because i hadn't felt almost forced into it before. but i shifted my attitude about it, and i am curious if there is some way i might help him do the same without seeming pushy or whatever.

then again, it's not really pushy to want my partner to actually enjoy sex with me even if there's positions he likes more. 

i did not think to ask if there are some aspects of the dominant role that make it more fun for him. if it comes up in conversation i may ask about that, but on the other hand i also feel like i have catered enough for now, unless or until i give him a chance to decide how he responds when i express how this has been for me.

geez... if there wasn't so much good here, so much worth keeping, i would be done with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My wording was ambiguous - sorry. Let me clarify. 

When my wife asks me to do something, if I feel really strongly against it I say no and explain why. This is very rare but it does happen. Otherwise when she asks me to do something, I project a happy enthusiastic vibe while I do it. I mean the point is to be nice right - it would ruin it for her if I said "ok - and than seemed blase or indifferent or worse resentful about it". 

Is he more comfortable doing this after two or three drinks. 

Why is he not able to get into this simply to make it fun for you? BTW it is kind of passive aggressive to agree to do it and then do a half assed job. 



catlover said:


> what emotional projection thing are you talking about?
> 
> the enthusiasm makes a significant difference. may i ask, did you always automatically do it this way, or was there a point where she had to say, honey, it would help if you'd not act sour in doing what i ask'?
> 
> ...


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> My wording was ambiguous - sorry. Let me clarify.
> 
> When my wife asks me to do something, if I feel really strongly against it I say no and explain why. This is very rare but it does happen. Otherwise when she asks me to do something, I project a happy enthusiastic vibe while I do it. I mean the point is to be nice right - it would ruin it for her if I said "ok - and than seemed blase or indifferent or worse resentful about it".
> 
> ...


thanks for clarifying. i should add, he isn't really "whiny" about it, not openly/directly, but it isn't something he obviously enjoys either. and sometimes after we do it the way i prefer he will get a little weird about it - all quite subtle, but i'm perceptive and intuitive. someone who is less so would not see it as whiny, but i can put all the pieces together, which is what i do in calling it that.

neither of us are big drinkers. 

yeah, i agree about the passive aggressive thing. i think a lot of it is selfishness by default, being the baby, used to getting his way. then again, it is unfair of me to assume he knows i see it that way. there are also things that make me think he wants me to be pleased. he is responsive to the emotional me, and i have not yet explained all this in terms of how it affects the emotional me. so, it could be he is willing to respond in those terms, even if it means compromise.

he may not really get either, that the sex is not as fun for me if there is a vibe of obligation - again, i haven't come out and said that, wouldn't be fair to expect him to know. also, i know how fragile guys can be about sex. and he is hypersensitive to criticism so i need to tread lightly here - because the good things are worth it, if i can express myself in a nonconfrontational way that shows some trust in him and in the possibility that he wants to address this on his own, without any demands from me. i can explain how this is for me and give him space to change it - not demanding change, but explaining that i will be giving less and leaving it up to him to decide if he also sees this partnership's potential is worth making a few adjustments.

(or, do folks here think it would be better overall to just not give as much without explaining? i can see how that would help, especially if this is some boredom thing from knowing he has me, but on the other hand i don't want to introduce really unhealthy dynamics either...)

oh, also, it's not that he does a half-assed job really. it's just, since i'm intuitive and perceptive, i sense his attitude about it. if he wants to play the submissive role, then it seems he could really take it on - by being willing to please me. and at this point, i shouldn't assume he doesn't want to until we talk about it. regardless of how long we've been together according to the calendar, the way we relate to each other shows me we have come to a stage where "a talk" is reasonable.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it is ALWAYS a bad idea to pull back and give less. Why? Because they will sense you pulling back, be hurt themselves, not know WHY you are pulling back, and start pulling back TOO! Before you know it, you have two people nursing hurt feelings, making assumptions about why the OTHER person is doing all the hurting...until you just give up and divorce.

Communication is king here. What good is a relationship, if you can't be honest? Just start out honest, and keep it that way. If the relationship doesn't work with you being honest, it's not the relationship for you.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> I think it is ALWAYS a bad idea to pull back and give less. Why? Because they will sense you pulling back, be hurt themselves, not know WHY you are pulling back, and start pulling back TOO! Before you know it, you have two people nursing hurt feelings, making assumptions about why the OTHER person is doing all the hurting...until you just give up and divorce.
> 
> Communication is king here. What good is a relationship, if you can't be honest? Just start out honest, and keep it that way. If the relationship doesn't work with you being honest, it's not the relationship for you.


so, you mean doing this without an explanation is bad?

i agree with you, and i am probably making a lot of fuss over nothing - meaning, he will probably hear what this is like for me and wish to address the hurt and unmet needs on his own. but the positives are so good, that i want to work through this in the best possible way - with someone who obviously has some baggage of his own, that makes it seem harder to communicate openly. i knew that going in, i am lying in the bed i made. but i can also tell part of him wants to be open with me, and he is working up the courage to make what seems like a huge risk. 

so, i don't really like the idea of manipulation - and pulling back without comment seems manipulative, which is why my original thinking was to explain that i am still interested in the relationship, but giving less seems like a better option than demanding that he give more, so that is what i plan to do unless he has another idea.

also, i have played the aloof role. i know it is a way to manipulate without doing much. so that is another reason to not amplify it with more manipulation. but providing an explanation to go along with changes i'm making for me doesn't seem manipulative to me.

hopefully all i will need to do is explain how this has been for me and that's all he will need to make adjustments.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

aloof = passive aggressive. Not pretty.

I think the key in talking to him is to show him that (1) you are NOT saying he is bad (that's the first thing he'll hear, and he'll need reassurance), and (2) you are telling him the truth because you envision a GREAT future with him, as long as you're both getting what you need.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> aloof = passive aggressive. Not pretty.
> 
> I think the key in talking to him is to show him that (1) you are NOT saying he is bad (that's the first thing he'll hear, and he'll need reassurance), and (2) you are telling him the truth because you envision a GREAT future with him, as long as you're both getting what you need.


those are both fantastic points, thank you.

since i was once aloof (not so much pass-agg, i think that often comes with the territory but isn't necessarily a given), i understand how that pattern works and i know what plays into it and what short-circuits it. if i focus on expressing myself, and add comments about being scared to express myself when it feels scary to do so (did that before, and i was rewarded for trusting him to share something sensitive), and if i don't make him feel pressured to share himself or play into the aloof control crapola, he will probably come around. at least, i wish to give him a chance. things like that can take some time, it can be VERY scary for an aloof person to be open with their emotions. 

but in the meantime, i do owe it to myself to talk about this with him, and to give him a chance to show more generosity. i would hate for this to become a deal-breaker, but then again, if there is no effort on his part it's so much better to see that now.

thank you again for the fantastic points for the conversation.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

turnera said:


> I think it is ALWAYS a bad idea to pull back and give less. Why? Because they will sense you pulling back, be hurt themselves, not know WHY you are pulling back, and start pulling back TOO! Before you know it, you have two people nursing hurt feelings, making assumptions about why the OTHER person is doing all the hurting...until you just give up and divorce.
> 
> Communication is king here. What good is a relationship, if you can't be honest? Just start out honest, and keep it that way. If the relationship doesn't work with you being honest, it's not the relationship for you.


I agree completely.

My first marriage had lots of problems, but one of them (which I didn't understand as a huge red flag at the time) was when I stopped telling my wife things because every time I told her about anything that made me unhappy she would cry. I should have realized what that meant, but didn't. Eventually it dawned on me that I hadn't been honest with her about how I was feeling in over a year, because I couldn't stand the crying.

Not too long after that, she was dumping out all her unhappiness, and one thing she was unhappy about was that I never talked to her. So I told her a whole lot of pent-up truths, and things went downhill from there.

Be honest: if you're not compatible for some reason, find that out as soon as you can. Don't do what my first wife and I did, or you'll find yourself pretending to be a person your spouse likes, and your spouse will be pretending to be someone you like, and you can't pretend forever.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

artieb said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> My first marriage had lots of problems, but one of them (which I didn't understand as a huge red flag at the time) was when I stopped telling my wife things because every time I told her about anything that made me unhappy she would cry. I should have realized what that meant, but didn't. Eventually it dawned on me that I hadn't been honest with her about how I was feeling in over a year, because I couldn't stand the crying.
> 
> ...


thank you for sharing your experiences. it does help me a lot to hear about the lessons others have learned and applied to their own lives. i can understand if the crying was aversive to you, and i can also understand how your wife could respond that way to negative feedback. we ladies can have very sensitive skin.... but i definitely agree with you it's better to be honest, and to be your true self, from the beginning. it takes so much work to pretend to be someone different!

i think i just needed to work up some courage to be honest about how this was for me, especially since we haven't technically been in a relationship very long.

but i did it, i talked to him last night and explained where i am coming from. i did my best to be sure he didn't feel criticized and even told him i was trying really hard at that.

he listened, and asked a couple of questions to clarify what i was saying. i told him at one point that i know he isn't naturally very open with people, and i get that because i used to be the same way, but i think i still understand him really well even though he tries to keep things to himself.

later that night i got the impression that he sees that i do really "get" him, and according to my intuition i get him better than anyone he's been in a relationship with. i think he's also impressed that i understand him so well even though he tries to be aloof.

the discussion went well though, and it turns out i was making an assumption about his attitude taking the dominant role in bed. i was wrongly thinking he didn't enjoy it when he really just gets tired easily. i need to thank him the next time i see him for correcting my assumption, and perhaps playfully point out that he could build up more endurance with practice 

the convo went well, and the rest of the night i could tell he was really making an effort to balance the taking and giving. even in terms of conversation, usually he has not always responded when i talk but last night he made an effort to say something every time i talked to him - a sign of more openness. the conversation has strengthened the relationship.

he also understood how hard it was for me to do this. he even thanked me for talking about what was on my mind. i also explained about how i reacted to him saying he'll only see a movie i prefer to see if i pay for both of us. can't remember if i mentioned that already but it happened and i laughed at the time, but i was really shocked and hurt that he was so unwilling to accommodate me in one of the few times i brought up something he's not naturally thrilled about. i told him last night that i laughed, but i really felt shocked and hurt about that - and at that time, i also felt really vulnerable, so i laughed because i did not want him to know how vulnerable i felt.

now, this is intense honesty for me to say that. it shows how much i am willing to trust him, if i am willing to say i responded that way because i was feeling vulnerable. he sees how much honesty and trust was involved in saying this to him, and i think he feels like we are closer because i explained this.

i think he may not NATURALLY want to be more accommodating with me, but he does understand. he gets now why i think it's reasonable for him to be more willing to accommodate me in these rare moments when i want to do something that he isn't interested in. he knows i don't demand much. but i think he also sees all the potential here, and now that i have explained how this has started to get for me, i think he wants to make a much stronger effort to be more accommodating.

example, before he went home i asked if there was anything specific he wants to do next time we hang out. he said there wasn't, and then he asked me the same thing (he has usually not asked me the questions i ask him, or not always, so him responding this way was a sign of his effort to make things more balanced). then he started mentioning possible things we could do next time we're together, and he was alternating between things he would prefer and things he believes i would prefer - it was a very obvious, endearing, and cute way of showing me he heard me about the balance of giving and taking and wants to do better. 

anyway, i really appreciate the suggestions, advice, support, and words of experience that you've all offered. this turned out to be very constructive, and it has strengthened the foundation of the partnership. thanks for helping me gather the courage i needed to discuss these sensitive, intimate, delicate feelings of mine


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

VERY impressive! I'm really glad for you, too.


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## catlover (Feb 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> VERY impressive! I'm really glad for you, too.


thanks! i was impressed by how well he handled it, and how well it turned out. hopefully i will remember this in the future and continue being willing to go ahead and talk about things as soon as they start to eat at me. even if he didn't enjoy what i was saying, i think he's also glad i actually decided to talk about it instead of letting it fester or expecting him to guess/just know i'm upset and why. i have noticed a lot of people (often women) go about it that way, and i think that's quite unfair. i mentioned this to him as well, how i don't think that's fair or reasonable. as a man, he is probably very glad i see it that way 

also told him what we talked about here, that i decided the best thing to do is to (a) let him know this started to bother me, and (b) start giving less. told him i wanted to explain why i wanted to give less, because it would be manipulative to just start giving less and expect him to figure out why. i think he appreciates this attitude because neither of us like the mind games.

so, thanks for the support! i'm impressed with him, with myself, and with how we're both handling it


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