# Why men use hookers



## temperance

I was just talking to a friend who shows me where he 'order' his hookers. One of my best friend (a different guy) who is a heavy user of call girls, I call him a prostitute addict! My best friend is not a handsome guy, but a great guy, have a great education and a great job, early decent income. I have seen him going into two serious relationships and got dumped twice over the years, heartbroken and all. He is desperately looking for a new girlfriend for number of years now, he is in his 40s now... but he is a hooker addict for sure. He would spend thousands of dollars a month on hookers and then regret spending the money he can't effort! He told me, 'only if I have a girlfriend/wife'. 

But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn. 

Some of these girls are sweet on the phone too, honey this, sweetheart that, some young and beautiful, (yea see how i bond with all my guys pals... they would put them on a speaker phone and let me listen). But well.. they all earns like doctors! Anyways... that's besides the point. Most of my friends who order, they would go into what they want and bargain for a price to get what they want. And I realized...they want the 'girlfriend experience'. 

I came across this article, 
Sun News : Men visit hookers for cuddling and companionship: Study

So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


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## treyvion

temperance said:


> I was just talking to a friend who shows me where he 'order' his hookers. One of my best friend (a different guy) who is a heavy user of call girls, I call him a prostitute addict! My best friend is not a handsome guy, but a great guy, have a great education and a great job, early decent income. I have seen him going into two serious relationships and got dumped twice over the years, heartbroken and all. He is desperately looking for a new girlfriend for number of years now, he is in his 40s now... but he is a hooker addict for sure. He would spend thousands of dollars a month on hookers and then regret spending the money he can't effort! He told me, 'only if I have a girlfriend/wife'.


His addiction like masterbation, kills his desire to find a real relationship.



temperance said:


> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.


All men or most men do not use hookers. Some do, as you attest, some large groups of men might find it an ok practice.



temperance said:


> Some of these girls are sweet on the phone too, honey this, sweetheart that, some young and beautiful, (yea see how i bond with all my guys pals... they would put them on a speaker phone and let me listen). But well.. they all earns like doctors! Anyways... that's besides the point. Most of my friends who order, they would go into what they want and bargain for a price to get what they want. And I realized...they want the 'girlfriend experience'.


Why not go get a girlfriend?

I came across this article, 
Sun News : Men visit hookers for cuddling and companionship: Study



temperance said:


> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


Men that I would know who would use a hooker would tend to do it for the sex, or the sex acts they can't get at home. I do believe some men can become addicted to it and seek emotional connections from the sex workers, not learning how to find it outside of the paid for experience.


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## OhGeesh

Ha ha...........Sex is not just inserting the penis into the vagina multiple times then goodbye.

The GFE is super popular and why wouldn't it be? It feels 100% real kissing, french kissing, foreplay, and ultimately sex the only difference is usually there are condoms involved unless you are a VIP customer. 

One big misconception in the escort world is frequency........everyone thinks these woman are banging 20 random strangers a week and that is simple not the case unless you are a bottom of the barrel provider.

Most see 2-3 clients and most women these days are happy to provide the GFE because of the rates.

In the southern US it's not uncommon for a girl to charger $500-600 for a 2hr GFE experience. So, if she screens well (picking only verified wealthier men) she only needs to put in a couple of hours a work a week to hearn $1000-1200/wk tax free.

The whole game is being stepped up with sugar babies and college students doing the same as wealthier older men spoil, lavish, and have sex with girls 20+ years their junior.

I could go on and on, companionship? To some degree and I think variety is just as much a motivator.


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## Cletus

I don't exactly know. I've never personally known a man who used one, to my knowledge.


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## Sandfly

In some countries, they have cafes where men all go together to share one. They even all sit out together on the terrasses till very late into the night - it's a social thing too.

Each man takes as much as he likes, and then maybe gets a bit of food, and comes back.


The water cools the smoke, I guess. Not so harsh - That's the main reason.


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## theroad

temperance said:


> I was just talking to a friend who shows me where he 'order' his hookers. One of my best friend (a different guy) who is a heavy user of call girls, I call him a prostitute addict! My best friend is not a handsome guy, but a great guy, have a great education and a great job, early decent income. I have seen him going into two serious relationships and got dumped twice over the years, heartbroken and all. He is desperately looking for a new girlfriend for number of years now, he is in his 40s now... but he is a hooker addict for sure. He would spend thousands of dollars a month on hookers and then regret spending the money he can't effort! He told me, 'only if I have a girlfriend/wife'.
> 
> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.
> 
> Some of these girls are sweet on the phone too, honey this, sweetheart that, some young and beautiful, (yea see how i bond with all my guys pals... they would put them on a speaker phone and let me listen). But well.. they all earns like doctors! Anyways... that's besides the point. Most of my friends who order, they would go into what they want and bargain for a price to get what they want. And I realized...they want the 'girlfriend experience'.
> 
> I came across this article,
> Sun News : Men visit hookers for cuddling and companionship: Study
> 
> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


You answered your own question. Your friend has no game. He is 40, and rejected more times then the army rejected draftees in WWII.


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## someone90

temperance said:


> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers...


You might want to rethink that statement.


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## trey69

If he's a "hooker addict" like you say then him finding a g/f or wife may not change that. 
He needs some self esteem. If he's a good guy, with a decent job and makes decent money then he's likely
failing in the relationship area due to lack of self esteem. Whenever he decides to be serous about finding a 
g/f then he will need to back off the hookers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos

> Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


It's my guess that the majority of men who pay for sex have low self-esteem and enjoy the hooker experience because it gives them a sense of confidence and power that they can't achieve in romantic relationships.

Your friend needs to rethink using hookers, because he's already shot himself in the foot when it comes to finding himself a decent woman in the future. 

A barge pole wouldn't be long enough for me to even contemplate touching a man who had slept with prostitutes.


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## Jamison

temperance said:


> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.
> 
> 
> I have never been with a hooker, so I think the statement about, "most all men", is incorrect.


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## PBear

I would also question your "most, if not all men" statement. AFAIK, guys in my circles don't use prostitutes. I know I never have. Maybe you should rethink what guys you're hanging out with?

As far as your friend who can't get a girlfriend and has spent thousands on prostitutes? He should be spending thousands on counselling and therapy...

C


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## ca-nami

i see no issue in it. 

And I think men who do so simply because they like sex, not because they lack self-esteem. it's a misnomer to say only sad/ugly men use them. I guess I see little wrong in it, if others don't like that view, so be it.


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## sh987

I also take issue with painting most, if not all, men as johns. It's without basis in fact and is gender stereotyping. I've never gone to a prostitute, nor even had the urge. Of all the guys I've known in my adult life, there's two I know of who have done it.

-A married friend of my brother's, who went while his wife was pregnant. Ugh.
-An old friend who was single for many years. He was quite lonely, and went to an "upscale" place once a week for about a year, where he settled on one particular woman he saw the most. He told me about she really liked him, how she listened really well, and I told him "Yeah, prostitutes are all pretty good listeners." 

I viewed the first man as a scum bag (cheating on his pregnant wife with a prostitute), but took a far lighter stance with my friend, due to him being single: he wasn't hurting a spouse/SO.

Are there more of them who have gone but not wanted to admit it? I'm sure there are. It still doesn't come close to being most, and it's obviously not all.


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## VermisciousKnid

Sandfly said:


> In some countries, they have cafes where men all go together to share one. They even all sit out together on the terrasses till very late into the night - it's a social thing too.
> 
> Each man takes as much as he likes, and then maybe gets a bit of food, and comes back.
> 
> 
> The water cools the smoke, I guess. Not so harsh - That's the main reason.


From the Boston area, are you?


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## treyvion

theroad said:


> You answered your own question. Your friend has no game. He is 40, and rejected more times then the army rejected draftees in WWII.


He has no game because he doesn't HAVE to have game, he uses hookers... Once he stops this addiction, his mind will have to find another way for him to procure sex and intimacy with females.


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## treyvion

Cosmos said:


> It's my guess that the majority of men who pay for sex have low self-esteem and enjoy the hooker experience because it gives them a sense of confidence and power that they can't achieve in romantic relationships.
> 
> Your friend needs to rethink using hookers, because he's already shot himself in the foot when it comes to finding himself a decent woman in the future.
> 
> A barge pole wouldn't be long enough for me to even contemplate touching a man who had slept with prostitutes.


Some of the hookers are well maintained to model types. So the guy may be paying for access to a level of beauty that he normally would not have access to. 

Of course all hookers are not model types. A bunch of scum in that group, and lowering yourself to have sex with them is really hurting your life.

Some of the men use the paid for experience not as a necessity but more as a luxury. Imagine ordering Filet Mignot and another time having a taste for Top Sirloin...

When the hooker comes they know they are going to have the agreed upon sex acts, so it is always a reward versus possible endless dinners with a date that go no where.

I see how it can be addicting, and I see how it can reduce your impetus to find a non-paid for experience.


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## CallaLily

Hope he uses protection, and if not I hope he gets tested regularly! I'm sure there are many who protect themselves, and probably some who don't.


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## 2ntnuf

I guess you've had a rough life, OP. I only know of a couple men who have used them and for one, it was during a dry spell that lasted a long time. The other, needed a woman to attend a party with him and found a fairly high-classed woman who knew how to carry herself. I guess he didn't want any attachment because he was wealthy. 

I have never been with a hooker. I don't think, "most, if not all", men have been with a hooker or call girl, etc.

Your thread brought up something very important, though. How is it a woman can give this type of, "girlfriend experience", which outwardly shows an emotional connection, but does not make her emotionally attached?

That, would be an interesting discussion and learning experience.


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## treyvion

CallaLily said:


> Hope he uses protection, and if not I hope he gets tested regularly! I'm sure there are many who protect themselves, and probably some who don't.


And there are probably many who have protected themselves and still caught something.


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## 2ntnuf

MissFroggie said:


> It's called role-play. It's acting. And it is very easy to do, especially when you are being paid for it. I should add that I am an actress not a prostitute lol, but I am often required to act as the wife/mother/gf/sister/friend of someone I have only just met and don't always even like, I've had to fall in love and get married, I've had to pretend I hate someone who in reality I'm good friends with - it's not a problem, it's my job.


That was great to read. I can tell you have done some research and know something about it.

What is tough for me to understand is that I can't imagine what happens in the brain with the chemicals produced to induce attachment? How does one tell themselves that those feelings produced naturally, are a lie, without losing something important to long-term successful relationships?

I also wonder if there isn't a slightly higher smattering of narcissism present for any of these folks? What do you think? 

I'm not saying anyone is a narcissist. What I know is we all need some level of narcissism, to want to take care of ourselves. I think it's lacking in codependent individuals.


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## ca-nami

MissFroggie said:


> Did you read what the OP said about his friend who is addicted to hookers but desperate for a relationship? I think any addiction that causes you to spend money you can't afford, leaves you with feelings of regret and depression, destroys your genuine personal relationships and prevents you from forming close relationships, is an issue.
> 
> Another issue with prostitution is that in most places it is illegal. There are all kinds of things going on behind the scenes that you would never know were happening - even in 'high class' situations. I used to consider taking a couple of lines of cocaine occasionally as no big issue. I was not paying for it and not hurting anyone. I was not addicted and was at no risk of becoming addicted. Then I researched more about it and I uncovered the lives it has already destroyed/hurt just to reach the end-user. I stopped immediately and won't use it again while it remains illegal. If legalised, my viewpoint would probably change and yes, I would probably take it occasionally again. Prostitution as with cocaine, _can_ have very limited damage to the end user, however this is not always the case and where they are illegal there is likely to be harm done somewhere along the way that the end user is funding/enabling/continuing simply by being the end user.
> 
> Many prostitutes have been abused and have low self-esteem or feel they have very limited choices. They have issues which IMO require help and counselling. The vast majority of prostitutes would not be doing this if they had viable alternatives. There is a minority of prostitutes (usually high class ones) who would _say_ it is their choice and they want to do it. I question whether they would still be doing it if they could maintain a decent lifestyle without it, if they would then perhaps their issues are related to power or sex addiction themselves, there is almost universally some kind of abuse or loss in their past that they are either escaping, trying to take back their control from or that has put them in a situation where they feel they have no other option. No child grows up dreaming of becoming a prostitute, no parent dreams of this for their child. How is there no issue with this?
> 
> The fact is that where prostitution is illegal there are prostitutes and users being hurt by it. It changes slightly where it is legal as there is access to support/counselling/protection from abuse etc. The user is also safe from prosecution and with regular controls on testing for diseases etc they are all at less risk from this too. Just like alcohol, which is legal, where prostitution is legal it can still have devastating affects on the user. It can become an addiction and it can destroy relationships, including future relationships. It can cause financial hardship, it can cause low self-esteem, depression, remorse, guilt etc etc. I really don't see how anyone can say there is no issue and it doesn't hurt anyone. Even alcohol hurts people and you are not risking prosecution or diseases, and it doesn't leave a trail of destroyed lives and crime behind it as it gets to the end user.
> 
> If it really is just because men 'like sex' then it is be an addiction and needs counselling etc where they are spending beyond their means, feeling remorse afterwards and failing to secure genuine relationships when they desperately want to. I also think they should take a long look at what they are funding and who they are exploiting because they 'like sex'. Personally I like cocaine...but I won't do it if it is fueling the pain of others.
> 
> Even where it is legal, the prostitute has all kinds of resources available, there is little risk of diseases etc and the end user is not an addict...the end user still needs to be aware of the risks of that changing but even if they don't become addicted they need to be aware that many women will not be interested in a man who uses prostitutes and it may affect their reputation with other people too. If someone said to me they had felt the need to use prostitutes in the past but wouldn't do it while we were together it would make me question whether they were a good enough partner - I mean, if they are so inadequate/undesirable they need to _pay_ for it then why give myself to them?
> 
> 
> 
> It's called role-play. It's acting. And it is very easy to do, especially when you are being paid for it. I should add that I am an actress not a prostitute lol, but I am often required to act as the wife/mother/gf/sister/friend of someone I have only just met and don't always even like, I've had to fall in love and get married, I've had to pretend I hate someone who in reality I'm good friends with - it's not a problem, it's my job.


It's not only inadequate men who do it, but men who are stable or even in relationships already. 

I was questioning the presumption that ALL men who do it are like the OP's friend, which is not true absolutely. The OP's friend has issues granted, but then


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## treyvion

MissFroggie said:


> Interesting response! When I wrote the response i was thinking the major difference between how it must be for a prostitute as opposed to an actor is just the sexual element, but your response mentioning about how the brain works, lies etc has made me realise there is another very significant difference other than the sexual side of it. That being the element of truth/lies etc. The other significant difference that you have prompted me to recognise is that as an actor we are BOTH acting, but in the prostitute giving a GFE there is one actor and one person not acting and not even necessarily aware the person they are confiding in is acting. I've done role-play where I am playing a part (eg. the customer) and the client is being themselves (they really are the sales assistant), in order to identify ways to improve their interactions and make the interactions they take into the workplace better for everyone. They know it is a role-play and they know why, they have hired me to act, we are problem solving together and there is no deception or ulterior motives except those shared between us both.
> 
> I guess as an actor it should follow that I am a great liar in real life, but I'm not, because that is about deception and has a moral element to it.
> 
> I think that a prostitute has had to develop the skill of detachment to a level most of us do not need to and would not do. To have sex with someone for money, someone you feel nothing for, is something I couldn't/wouldn't do. I think that it could be that having already developed the coping methods to detach enough to do that would allow someone to detach enough for a GFE too? IDK, but if you can detach for the intimate physical experience then detaching for the emotional one doesn't seem much different.
> 
> I don't know about there being a higher level of narcissism in prostitutes (even those giving the GFE), I'd actually think it is likely to be lower than in others. For most people the survival skill of detachment at such a level is extremely difficult. I think it comes from serious trauma. When I was abused I would detach. I wasn't there, I was somewhere else, sometimes looking down on myself from somewhere up above in the ceiling, sometimes somewhere completely away and not looking at all. For someone who has not experienced a trauma that causes that natural survival mechanism, it would be near impossible to just generate it, but for those who already have that, developing it further, taking it to a different experience/level could be possible.
> 
> Not all abused people detach, not all abused people continue to detach either, but I think to be a prostitute you must be able to detach on some level to be able to cope with it. Counsellors have to be able to detach to some extent or they'd go home from work and be unable to switch off from what they have heard, same with criminal barristers etc. Personally, I can't when it comes to real things, real people, real emotions, real events that have/are hurting someone, no matter how big or small those may be...I couldn't be a counsellor. Yet with acting I can perform a very emotional and upsetting scene without taking that into my real life because it is ALL fake, all made up, all pretend and for entertainment and no-one is really affected by any of it. I can kill someone without it affecting me when acting, but I couldn't in real life.
> 
> I don't know if this makes sense or whether it is a relevant response to your post, but I guess it just made me realise the other difference being about reality/acting etc and made me realise even more how deeply someone working in such an industry must be hurting/damaged.


That pain turns into power, their EGO's get super sky high as they control the frames and get their money.

The question is do you really want the habit of being with someone who has to detach from their feelings to have intimacy with you?

Keep in mind some of the clients they may like and may be attracted to...

But others, they clearly would not want to perform for if it weren't for the money.


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## 2ntnuf

MissFroggie said:


> Interesting response! When I wrote the response i was thinking the major difference between how it must be for a prostitute as opposed to an actor is just the sexual element, but your response mentioning about how the brain works, lies etc has made me realise there is another very significant difference other than the sexual side of it. That being the element of truth/lies etc. The other significant difference that you have prompted me to recognise is that as an actor we are BOTH acting, but in the prostitute giving a GFE there is one actor and one person not acting and not even necessarily aware the person they are confiding in is acting. I've done role-play where I am playing a part (eg. the customer) and the client is being themselves (they really are the sales assistant), in order to identify ways to improve their interactions and make the interactions they take into the workplace better for everyone. They know it is a role-play and they know why, they have hired me to act, we are problem solving together and there is no deception or ulterior motives except those shared between us both.


Never, ever thought you might be a prostitute. I'm very sorry if I ever gave that impression. I was just trying to find some connections between a prostitute who acts like a girlfiend, and an actor, who acts like a girlfriend. sans sexual act. 

I think the biggest factor IS the sexual act. That's where the natural chemicals that flow to the brain and cause attachment must be pushed aside and believed to be a lie by the prostitute. It is quite a hurdle. 



> I guess as an actor it should follow that I am a great liar in real life, but I'm not, because that is about deception and has a moral element to it.


This is not picking on you, but I wonder if acting isn't similar to lying? You essentially have to believe you are the character to give the best performance. You know you are not, but you must almost believe you are capable of being the character. You must understand what they might feel and how you might react emotionally, if you were them. 



> I think that a prostitute has had to develop the skill of detachment to a level most of us do not need to and would not do. To have sex with someone for money, someone you feel nothing for, is something I couldn't/wouldn't do. I think that it could be that having already developed the coping methods to detach enough to do that would allow someone to detach enough for a GFE too? IDK, but if you can detach for the intimate physical experience then detaching for the emotional one doesn't seem much different.


Interesting. That's something for me to think about. I'm not sure I am understanding. 



> I don't know about there being a higher level of narcissism in prostitutes (even those giving the GFE), I'd actually think it is likely to be lower than in others. For most people the survival skill of detachment at such a level is extremely difficult. I think it comes from serious trauma. When I was abused I would detach. I wasn't there, I was somewhere else, sometimes looking down on myself from somewhere up above in the ceiling, sometimes somewhere completely away and not looking at all. For someone who has not experienced a trauma that causes that natural survival mechanism, it would be near impossible to just generate it, but for those who already have that, developing it further, taking it to a different experience/level could be possible.


Agree, I don't know that it's narcissism in prostitutes, but maybe in the higher levels of call girls from college and those who choose the profession from a different background?

As far as your abuse is concerned, I am very sorry for you and would share my experiences with being abused in the year before separation and the year after, in private. Although they are not the same, I do think you might find we have some similar feelings surrounding our differing experiences. 



> Not all abused people detach, not all abused people continue to detach either, but I think to be a prostitute you must be able to detach on some level to be able to cope with it. Counsellors have to be able to detach to some extent or they'd go home from work and be unable to switch off from what they have heard, same with criminal barristers etc. Personally, I can't when it comes to real things, real people, real emotions, real events that have/are hurting someone, no matter how big or small those may be...I couldn't be a counsellor. Yet with acting I can perform a very emotional and upsetting scene without taking that into my real life because it is ALL fake, all made up, all pretend and for entertainment and no-one is really affected by any of it. I can kill someone without it affecting me when acting, but I couldn't in real life.


I believe you. I think there is a difference in each of us. I think there are also similarities. I don't consider the connections to prostitution as valid in your specific case. It's more just the deception of the audience. Once sex is involved, it changes the dynamics. In acting, there is no actual sex, therefore, no release of the levels of oxytocin? required for attachment. 





> I don't know if this makes sense or whether it is a relevant response to your post, but I guess it just made me realise the other difference being about reality/acting etc and made me realise even more how deeply someone working in such an industry must be hurting/damaged.



Yes, thank you. I think it made me realise the same. It also made me connect the dots in some ways to a wayward spouse who can have sex with others while having it with their spouse, and not revealing it through emotions or any manner obvious to the BS.


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## Cosmos

treyvion said:


> Some of the hookers are well maintained to model types. So the guy may be paying for access to a level of beauty that he normally would not have access to.


Those types of hookers would be way above the average man's budget for sex


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## treyvion

Many of them aren't saints at all, have more in common with thugs and crooks. Many figure, they would be having sex with all these men for free anyway, why not get paid for it.

I've ben around it enough to understand the animal it is.

And YES, there are a percentage of them who are controlled and forced into it by pimps and groups who keep them in the life. So they fear for their life if they got out of it.

I wouldn't touch most of them with a twenty foot pole, it really is a nasty thing.


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## treyvion

Cosmos said:


> Those types of hookers would be way above the average manners budget for sex


Give me an idea. I've seen some "porn star" quotes which aren't that big of a deal with someone with descent money. I still would prefer to not pay for sex.


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## ca-nami

yes, I know inadequacy is subjective.


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## treyvion

treyvion said:


> Many of them aren't saints at all, have more in common with thugs and crooks. Many figure, they would be having sex with all these men for free anyway, why not get paid for it.
> 
> 
> 
> MissFroggie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of them? I think few of them. I also question why anyone would want to fund and spend time with people or approve of time spent around them if this really was the case too.
Click to expand...

I spent 20+ years around the stripper types and some of these would do the bunny ranch and things. In a variety of cities, even in the personal lives of some. It's nothing to brag about but I did gain enough typical behaviors in it all. Many of them where closer to thugs, and they had thugs in orbit around and near them. They could have you robbed. It definately was not a higher moral level of individual, more of a lower one.




treyvion said:


> I've ben around it enough to understand the animal it is.
> 
> 
> MissFroggie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been around enough of them who are certainly not like that to know there are a lot of exploited and hurting women involved in this. Those I met would not be sleeping with these guys anyway so think they might as well get paid for it. I think that attitude of saying that is very ill-informed, offensive and dismissive. Most people in this line of 'work' need help and support to escape it. They do not feel clever and joyous after the act while throwing the money into the air because they're so rich.
Click to expand...

The lure of the fast money is a hard addiction to break. Plus you begin to equate sex with the money and have a hard time forming any intimacy without it. It damages people. It's definately not all peaches and cream. Like I said with many of the clients they look at them like their creepy, but if it's a celebrity figure or real attractive well off man, they may enjoy the business.




treyvion said:


> And YES, there are a percentage of them who are controlled and forced into it by pimps and groups who keep them in the life. So they fear for their life if they got out of it.
> 
> 
> MissFroggie said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how exactly do you know which is which? Who is being forced and who is not? It happens at all levels - from the street-walker to the high-class call girl. I also think that there are not just pimps controlling a lot of them. They are pushed into it and controlled by the laws and the state themselves. They are unable to make a living elsewhere, have been reduced in self-esteem due to being let down by the authorities who should have protected them and they are in and kept in a mental and physical state that gives them little or no alternatives. These people need help and support, not judgement - they beat themselves up enough already without other people joining in.
Click to expand...

You said possibly by the state, government and authorities, being locked into it by various leverages hard for the general public to understand. That's why I used to words "groups". It could even be just social groups who hold them in the position, not allowing them to change their social light so they get stuck. Many don't realize they can completely move where they don't know anyone and start life over.

After some time in the game, these prostitutes are sharks themself. I don't understand why you downplay this. They are dangerous people who will do depraving things for money. In hierarchies where there are sharks and predators, there is a bully system in place, so yes they take some abuse and bad treatment, but it's part of the game they participate in.



treyvion said:


> I wouldn't touch most of them with a twenty foot pole, it really is a nasty thing.





MissFroggie said:


> Most of them? So some are fine and you would? No-one comes out of this without some level of damage, both prostitutes and client.


[/quote]

Who cares if their physical appearance is fine? They could have AIDS. What about their character? Were they doing the same thing with another man a couple hours earlier, what about a couple of days? Is he in the same situation with her? That's pretty ugly...

I'm not going to say I could never date someone who was in this line of work in the past, but they would have to be tested and they would have to be completely DONE with it for several years before I came along. I don't want them associating with anyone from that lifestyle.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Mine was one part, what I perceived as rape, by my wife and the other was that I was physically forced, by a large male, to sit while undergoing a procedure by a university educated, degreed, woman. Both were against my will, but I felt I had no choice. Emphasis on felt like. It has made me feel the fight or flight instinct you speak of here. That is where I think we might find some similarities. I don't know yet, how to overcome those tremendous fears and I cannot, because of my upbringing, for one, just go and have sex with whoever to rid myself of that. Maybe it's because mine was not as traumatic, too. Whatever it is, I thought we might talk sometime. I'd rather not get into too much detail in public. 

Thank you, so much.


----------



## OhGeesh

Cosmos said:


> Those types of hookers would be way above the average man's budget for sex


Define average? For $300/hr you can find a pretty gorgeous provider that will be 21-25 and KNOW WHAT SHE IS doing!

Add to that the late surge in SB/SD relationships with college coeds and the perks are there.

For guys who are 35-60 that can no longer attain beautiful girls in that age bracket using a provider or sb/sd relationships allows them to still dabble in the world from time to time.

If you are even a average looking 40yr old $1000/mo will get you alot.


----------



## OhGeesh

MissFroggie said:


> I think that is a significant amount of money and hiding that kind of spending from a spouse would be difficult. Anyone with an addiction would be needing to spend that a lot more than 3 times a month (what your $1000 would get you). Yes, I agree with Cosmos that 'those kinds of hookers' would be out of most men's budget.
> 
> It also ties in with what I said about my feeling that a man who needs to pay for it would be ill-suited for me and I wouldn't consider them for a relationship regardless of if they stopped or had already stopped. $300 an hour? If they were spending that kind of money what is wrong with them that would prevent them from being able to attain or sustain a relationship. There is probably something significant missing from their personality.


It's all relative Miss Froggie.......depends how the family dyamic is. Some marriages the husbands handle all of the finances, retirement, purchases, everything and for them moving some monies around would be easy. Before my wife worked and she was a SAHM and I as making $130k/yr I handled everything it's pretty common.

Again the guys I know that dabble in these worlds are all married, all as happy as the "avg" 45-50yr old can be in a "avg" marriage. Both have gained weight, sex life is blech, life is blech, just living work, older kids, life is boring and they see "escorts" for fun every so often. Usually business trips, fake fishing trips, fake hunting trips, most of them say you can get hooked because it so fun. Then you feel guilty and quit and then the urge arises again and you start again.

I'm sure for some addicted 3-5x a month might not be enough, but I don't know if a married person could pull that much away time. Especially if it as a SB/SD relationship which I haven't even touched on.

I would give you websites so you could go see for yourself how easy it is to step into this world you get verified to prove you arent law enforcement and then it's just fun.....in theory.

**Cheap escorts go as low as $75/hr I purposely used $300hr for higher end gorgeous women.


----------



## Feeling-Lonely

The only time I understand the paying for sex is when a single guy in military after not seeing a woman for 6 months has 2 nights off before going back. 

My close friend did, he also admitted he didn't enjoy it and it wasn't worth the money.


----------



## OhGeesh

MissFroggie said:


> I think you've just verified one of the reasons I find it repulsive - they are all cheating on wives. They are stealing money from the family, lying, exposing themselves and their wife to diseases (no matter how careful they say they are being and no matter how careful they are being, it's not enough) and they are pathetic (IMO) to be so lacking in imagination and intelligence as to find some alternative to spruce up their dull little lives. Maybe they should try actually going on a hunting or fishing trip, or maybe have the imagination to spend that money on something that brings joy and excitement to the whole family? Never mind though, they'd rather the excitement of spending the family's money on hookers...if the wife finds out you might find that hooker you thought was in budget was the most expensive fake fishing trip you've ever made!


I don't disagree..........but it happens. People look at life, start to feel like the better years have gone by, question the why, feel mortal, and then wish they could enjoy some of the things age has taken away. 

Or they just want the variety ofdifferent women and new experiences. They look at how hard they work and decide they deserve this.

Some know it's wrong from the jump, but just compartmentalize it and keep going.

In the end we all die and have to live with our actions.........! Some will have a clearer conscious than others.


----------



## sinnister

There is a reason why this supply and demand will never die.

The principles of the drug trade apply here. As long as there are people wanting to buy a product there will be those who supply it.

As to the original question? I do believe you are on to something when you speak of emotional connection. I can't imagine the point of paying good hard earned money to have relations with somebody that acts like a blow up doll.


----------



## Cosmos

sinnister said:


> There is a reason why this supply and demand will never die.
> 
> The principles of the drug trade apply here. As long as there are people wanting to buy a product there will be those who supply it.
> 
> As to the original question? I do believe you are on to something when you speak of emotional connection. I can't imagine the point of paying good hard earned money to have relations with somebody that acts like a blow up doll.


:iagree:

But a very compliant doll whose job it is to tell the 'client' what he wants to hear and fulfill his wildest fantasies

As for 'connection,' that is also a fantasy. A fantasy that ends when the 'client's' hour is up. Then it's back to reality. A reality that can include a disease that can last a lifetime.

Very sad, indeed...


----------



## Machiavelli

temperance said:


> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


In the 21st century? 

#1. They are unattractive. Most women are somewhat sexually repelled by most men.

#2. They are too lazy to become attractive. A good physique can go a long way to attract women, at least when they're ovulating.

#3. They are married and too well known (celebrity) to go around picking up random women who are trying to trap them into marriage or create drama. Think: John Edwards and his space skank.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Four pages and no one has admitted to being with a prostitute? I have. The first time I was in Spain with my college buddies after graduation and went to a brothel "just to see what one was like". We all ended up doing it. None of us were in the category of actually needing to pay for sex. In fact most of us hooked up with other tourists on the trip in addition to our brothel romp.

The second time I was traveling on business with one of the older execs in the company I worked for. He actually sent a girl to my room. Once I opened the door I wasn't going to send her away. 

I think you guys are way over analyzing this stuff. Most men that pay for sex aren't ugly dudes with no game that can't get it elsewhere. They aren't seeking an emotional attachment either. They pay because they want just the sex and nothing else. They don't want somebody texting them or calling them for a second date. Or if they are married they don't want to be contacted anymore at all. 

Even that punk Justin Bieber visited a brothel recently in Brazil. Do you think he needed to pay for sex?


----------



## Machiavelli

ReformedHubby said:


> Even that punk Justin Bieber visited a brothel recently in Brazil. Do you think he needed to pay for sex?


Read #3 in my post above. I have a pretty good list of celebrities and politicians from a very enlightening F investigation into the financial aspects of prostitution, only a portion of which the DoJ allowed to be released (BJ Clinton was PRez). You'd be amazed at what people are stupid enough to charge to a credit card and how much pimps like to brag about their customer lists when they think they're talking to someone in the business.


----------



## ca-nami

ReformedHubby said:


> Four pages and no one has admitted to being with a prostitute? I have. The first time I was in Spain with my college buddies after graduation and went to a brothel "just to see what one was like". We all ended up doing it. None of us were in the category of actually needing to pay for sex. In fact most of us hooked up with other tourists on the trip in addition to our brothel romp.
> 
> The second time I was traveling on business with one of the older execs in the company I worked for. He actually sent a girl to my room. Once I opened the door I wasn't going to send her away.
> 
> I think you guys are way over analyzing this stuff. Most men that pay for sex aren't ugly dudes with no game that can't get it elsewhere. They aren't seeking an emotional attachment either. They pay because they want just the sex and nothing else. They don't want somebody texting them or calling them for a second date. Or if they are married they don't want to be contacted anymore at all.
> 
> Even that punk Justin Bieber visited a brothel recently in Brazil. Do you think he needed to pay for sex?


This.

People would be surprised who pays for sex. To say only ugly losers do is a misconception.

It's like Charlie Harper from Two and a Half men, he was a player but had plenty of prostitutes in addition to "non-paid" relationship sex. Like him, for many men who do it it's simply a supplement.


----------



## Sandfly

I don't use prostitutes. Working at a hotel, I saw plenty of them coming in to satisfy guests, and they generally weren't attractive.

There was one nice prostitute who used to virtually live-in, along with a landlord who had hundreds of properties but was lazy to take care of himself, so he stayed at the hotel. She clearly had some kind of amphetamine problem because she was on the thin side, hyperactive and her movements were jerky.

He paid good tips, a generally nice bloke, so this use of prostitutes seemed to be part of a pattern of 'money makes things simpler', rather than ugliness or whatever.

So the girl often came down to keep me company at night when she was 'off-duty'. She started talking about coming back to the room with her. One night she came behind the bar and started talking some waffle about her vagina and showed me the goods, and made her invitation again.

That was awkward. Anyway, although she was nice and young and all that, I'm not interested in the idea of sharing someone any more than sharing a handkerchief.

I hope it never comes to that as I get older.

So there you have my dealings with prostitutes.


----------



## catfan

As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


----------



## skype

catfan said:


> As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


We all see things through the filter of our desires. That is why advertising can work, even though the claims can often be utterly absurd. It is not hard to fool people who want to suspend their disbelief.


----------



## Sandfly

catfan said:


> As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


Men can't spot fake. I was very lucky to have experienced fake early on, so I developed an immunity to charm and flattery.

I think, in the in-depth example I offered, she was having fun with him, after all, she was high as a kite most of the time, she was living in comfort with room service, entertainment.

Normal men are happy when they think other people are happy. So if she's buzzing out of her brain with a smile on her face, he could easily ignore if the relationship was based on a lie.

To put it another way, the kind of (non-psycho) man who would visit a prostitute is probably the 'pleaser' type anyway. In his fantasy world, she 'looks' happy, so she must be happy.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

catfan said:


> As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


Not for me either but I don't know how much different it is than going to a bar and picking up a ONS. They're both about sex and self-gratification and not much else.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## catfan

*Re: Re: Why men use hookers*



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Not for me either but I don't know how much different it is than going to a bar and picking up a ONS. They're both about sex and self-gratification and not much else.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Isn't a ONS mostly with a person you find attractive?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

catfan said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not for me either but I don't know how much different it is than going to a bar and picking up a ONS. They're both about sex and self-gratification and not much else.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't a ONS mostly with a person you find attractive?
Click to expand...

IDK, would a person pay for a prostitute they found unattractive, in a physical sense?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## catfan

*Re: Re: Why men use hookers*



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> IDK, would a person pay for a prostitute they found unattractive, in a physical sense?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


No, I mean the other way around. The woman that comes with you, I just suppose she is attracted to you, I doubt a prostitute will be.


----------



## catfan

She will be into money though.


----------



## Sandfly

Well, men's standard on sex-attraction are a lot lower than personal, longterm relationship attraction. 

This is why a minority of very crude and ill-mannered English girls still consider themselves a success with men.

Because they can get ONS no problem.

But they are not really desirable.

They ought to be thinking instead 'do I attract the right man'?

And work on their abrasive personalities.

This is probably a suicidal comment 

But we can read it another way: to get a gentleman, act like a lady. To get a player, act like a hooker.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

catfan said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> IDK, would a person pay for a prostitute they found unattractive, in a physical sense?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean the other way around. The woman that comes with you, I just suppose she is attracted to you, I doubt a prostitute will be.
Click to expand...

If I have a ONS, do I care? Sure, I would assume she came home with me because she found me attractive enough to have sex with but I think my motivation really just comes down to getting laid. If it wasn't then I would probably try to see if it was more than just a ONS. Btw, I'm not a ONS kind of guy.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## catfan

*Re: Re: Why men use hookers*



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> If I have a ONS, do I care? Sure, I would assume she came home with me because she found me attractive enough to have sex with but I think my motivation really just comes down to getting laid. If it wasn't then I would probably try to see if it was more than just a ONS. Btw, I'm not a ONS kind of guy.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


OK, I get it. Guys just want to get laid, looks don't matter. Wow, I guess I'm glad I'm a woman and have higher morals. Yuck...


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

catfan said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I have a ONS, do I care? Sure, I would assume she came home with me because she found me attractive enough to have sex with but I think my motivation really just comes down to getting laid. If it wasn't then I would probably try to see if it was more than just a ONS. Btw, I'm not a ONS kind of guy.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I get it. Guys just want to get laid, looks don't matter. Wow, I guess I'm glad I'm a woman and have higher morals. Yuck...
Click to expand...

Looks do matter. Like I said, if a man hires a hooker, I assume he finds something sexually attractive about her or the situation. For every man having a ONS or NSA sex there is a woman so it isn't as if women hold some moral high ground.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## unbelievable

If a fellow is new in town and a young lady invites him to a party with her, it aint hardly neighborly to refuse. She might get the idea that folks where he came from just don't have any manners at all.


----------



## Cleigh

From a womans pov, having a ONS... They guy still needs to be attractive. I have tried with someone I didnt find that good looking and just couldn't preform. I laughed to much and ended up walking out


----------



## Sandfly

catfan said:


> OK, I get it. Guys just want to get laid, looks don't matter. Wow, I guess I'm glad I'm a woman and have higher morals. Yuck...


This is not true. If it were true, none of them would ever marry or stick around when the pregnancy test came up positive.

Put it this way, there is absolutely no incentive to marry anymore, and it's quite easy to skip country/state.

They still marry and want to see their kids, even though it would make sense to skip. 

In fact, never mind marriage. Having someone move in to his house is significant enough for a solitary animal such as man.

"It must be love".


----------



## treyvion

Cleigh said:


> From a womans pov, having a ONS... They guy still needs to be attractive. I have tried with someone I didnt find that good looking and just couldn't preform. I laughed to much and ended up walking out


Many men can have sex with someone they don't find attractive. They do it for the sex. Many women can have sex with men they don't necessarily like or attracted to. They do it for the sex and/or money.

Some women like sex and are indiscriminate about partners and are just having "fun".

Also with the prostitute thing some men don't take it so serious, they are just having "fun" and it's an add in to their life...


----------



## Machiavelli

Cleigh said:


> From a womans pov, having a ONS... They guy still needs to be attractive. I have tried with someone I didnt find that good looking and just couldn't preform. I laughed to much and ended up walking out


Of course you see it that way. That's the usual perspective for a woman with regards to a ONS. Women (like Sandfly's drunk English girls) can pull higher ranking, more attractive men for a ONS than they can for a relationship. That's why most men aren't able to have as many ONS as they would like, cause they don't rank high enough to pull it off with any frequency. Say a guy is an 8, if he's willing to lower his standards, he can have a steady stream of 5 and 6 girls with little or no work. But, he certainly won't be taking 5 rank girls to meet his friends.


----------



## Machiavelli

treyvion said:


> Many men can have sex with someone they don't find attractive. They do it for the sex. Many women can have sex with men they don't necessarily like or attracted to. They do it for the sex and/or money.
> 
> Some women like sex and are indiscriminate about partners and are just having "fun".


Most men are attracted to most women. Most women are not attracted to most men.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Of course you see it that way. That's the usual perspective for a woman with regards to a ONS. Women (like Sandfly's drunk English girls) can pull higher ranking, more attractive men for a ONS than they can for a relationship. That's why most men aren't able to have as many ONS as they would like, cause they don't rank high enough to pull it off with any frequency. Say a guy is an 8, if he's willing to lower his standards, he can have a steady stream of 5 and 6 girls with little or no work. But, he certainly won't be taking 5 rank girls to meet his friends.


Right! You nailed that point, that hasn't been discussed and it is what really goes on.

Many of the guys doing ONS are doing them with alot of people they won't introduce to anyone, it was just the sex. So they are using their rank to get it.

That's how a much lower rank female can get a higher rank guy just for the night or some sex sessions...


----------



## Machiavelli

catfan said:


> As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


Asian men are spending $$$$$ millions to develop sex robots, so i guess it's not a problem.


----------



## Sandfly

treyvion said:


> Right! You nailed that point, that hasn't been discussed and it is what really goes on.
> 
> Many of the guys doing ONS are doing them with alot of people they won't introduce to anyone, it was just the sex. So they are using their rank to get it.
> 
> That's how a much lower rank female can get a higher rank guy just for the night or some sex sessions...


Aye, but what gets me is how the girls mistake their ONS skills, or ability to score an attractive foreign man in need of a visa, for being 'good with men'.

As time goes on, they sleep with lots of slimeballs, doing the round of a limited pool of men who have no intention of taking it further, and then they've got the cheek to say 'all men are sh*t'.

The truth is, ONS aren't going to get them happiness.

When they've had their fun, and the clock starts ticking for marriage and babies, well - I won't touch them, sorry.

Too much trouble. Ruined, to be blunt. I look for genuine women, not users and embittered party-girls.

I predict the girls who do get married after a wild-time with multiple partners in their twenties will only become 'nostaligic' in their forties, and try to live it over.

There is a proverb for this phenomenon 

Can we get a cultural shift on this? I have rejected so many 'bubbly' alcoholics after a couple of dates... something needs to change.


----------



## treyvion

Sandfly said:


> Aye, but what gets me is how the girls mistake their ONS skills, or ability to score an attractive foreign man in need of a visa, for being 'good with men'.
> 
> As time goes on, they sleep with lots of slimeballs, doing the round of a limited pool of men who have no intention of taking it further, and then they've got the cheek to say 'all men are sh*t'.


Even if they are enjoying sex, they are being $hitted on by the guys who just wanted the sex out of it. The guy isn't thinking about them.



Sandfly said:


> The truth is, ONS aren't going to get them happiness.


It's training them for behaviors which won't let them be good for a long relationship.



Sandfly said:


> When they've had their fun, and the clock starts ticking for marriage and babies, well - I won't touch them, sorry.


I wouldn't touch one even before the clock is ticking.


Sandfly said:


> Too much trouble. Ruined, to be blunt. I look for genuine women, not users and embittered party-girls.
> 
> I predict the girls who do get married after a wild-time with multiple partners in their twenties will only become 'nostaligic' in their forties, and try to live it over.


I see how they mess themself up just like men mess themself up relying on hookers or jacking off to porn.



Sandfly said:


> There is a proverb for this phenomenon
> 
> Can we get a cultural shift on this? I have rejected so many 'bubbly' alcoholics after a couple of dates... something needs to change.


Someone can get over it if they ruined themself like this, but it's not going to be overnight. It would take years.


----------



## yours4ever

Sandfly said:


> They ought to be thinking instead 'do I attract the right man'?
> 
> 
> But we can read it another way: to get a gentleman, act like a lady. To get a player, act like a hooker.



I agree with this.
Not long ago I went to PUA online forum (out of curiosity) and there was actually a subforum named "relationship".
Surprisingly, well, no, not surprisingly.. I found the the top two common subjects were related to maintaining a relationship, and another one is ... How to deal with cheating girlfriends.

I'm not saying nonplayers' relationship have no problem at all. But it seems to me that players tend to hook up with players too... The girls that they pickup and have ONS is well, a ONS type of girl. It is harder to hook up a woman who has higher and stricter standards. Besides, why go into a relationship with a no-premarital sex- woman when there are sex-on-third-date women out there?
I'm just showing that people tend to go for people who have the same values.


I think parents need to inform daughters how to choose a responsible, family minded men.. to avoid players.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

And men who use hookers are players.. Using the easiest way to get sex/women.


----------



## 2ntnuf

yours4ever said:


> I agree with this.
> Not long ago I went to PUA online forum (out of curiosity) and there was actually a subforum named "relationship".
> Surprisingly, well, no, not surprisingly.. I found the the top two common subjects were related to maintaining a relationship, and another one is ... How to deal with cheating girlfriends.
> 
> I'm not saying nonplayers' relationship have no problem at all. But it seems to me that players tend to hook up with players too... The girls that they pickup and have ONS is well, a ONS type of girl. It is harder to hook up a woman who has higher and stricter standards.
> 
> 
> I think parents need to inform daughters how to choose a responsible, family minded men.. to avoid players.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> *And men who use hookers are players.. Using the easiest way to get sex/women*.




May I tell a true story? 

There is a guy who worked at a steel mill all his life. He never had much luck with women. He was hurt once really badly. After that, he did all he could to make a decent living and retirement for himself. He made a good hourly rate. He worked as much as he could. He saved and scrimped. 

It was said, he would, once in a while, I think it was once a month, go where he could find a woman to sleep with. It wasn't often. He was never a PUA. He wasn't homely, but neither was he very attractive. He was clean and decent, but not very religious. 

He never had a girlfriend. He couldn't risk his, "heart", any more.

He lived a decent life, other than that. He had no family. They were all gone or had abandoned him. He was alone. 

When he died, he was so thankful to the steel mill for the life they provided him, he gave them what was left of his money. It was a million dollar savings. Specifically, I think it was a 401k, but I'm not certain.


----------



## Machiavelli

That's a pretty pathetic story.


----------



## Quant

Its also cheaper in emotional and financial costs then most female interaction. I don't know why more men don't get prostitutes.


----------



## Sandfly

Quant said:


> Its also cheaper in emotional and financial costs then most female interaction. I don't know why more men don't get prostitutes.


You must be joking?

Women are fun to have around. They only cost you if you start out on the basis of 'I'll pay'.

They only cost you emotionally if you are a conflict-avoider and too nice. If one is playing games, get a new one who is honest.

They need you as much as you need them. That fish and bicycles stuff is nonsense.

The only problem is finding one that is not living in a dream world about what to expect from a man.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Machiavelli said:


> That's a pretty pathetic story.


It is, but it does illustrate my point, that not all are PUA's.


----------



## ca-nami

catfan said:


> As a woman it just amazes me that a guy can just ignore the fact that the prostitute is all fake and isn't into them at all... To me that would kill all interest and lust, to know this dislike me ... So I do wonder how men ignore this?


They're paying, they don't care.


----------



## ca-nami

MissFroggie said:


> Yes, until you get busted by the police, a criminal record, lose your job and reputation...great risk to take. Then there is the truly smart prostitute who sleeps with you once, films it and then blackmails you with it ha ha, no more wife, no more house, no more job....or you're paying her to keep her mouth shut for the rest of your life lol. I think you can find yourself in a lot of bother for that cheaper, easier experience


Or do it in a country that it's legal? Or in which post people don't care?


----------



## ca-nami

Whatever dude...seemingly you can't accept the opinions of others well..


----------



## ca-nami

MissFroggie said:


> I get your point, but we were talking about men who regularly use prostitutes, are addicted to using prostitutes and those who want the GFE. Your situation does not apply to any of those things. The OP talked of a friend who was addicted to prostitutes, spending money he couldn't afford and regretting it afterwards, was desperate to have a proper relationship but couldn't get one etc etc. It's a different situation to a group of young lads visiting a brothel while on holiday 'just to see what one was like'.


What makes you so sure that most men who regularly use prostitutes are not healthy? Who even defines "healthiness" anyhow? It's a completely subjective label. Are you as such?


----------



## Caribbean Man

yours4ever said:


> I agree with this.
> Not long ago I went to PUA online forum (out of curiosity) and there was actually a subforum named "relationship".
> Surprisingly, well, no, not surprisingly.. I found the the top two common subjects were related to maintaining a relationship, and another one is ... How to deal with cheating girlfriends.
> 
> I'm not saying nonplayers' relationship have no problem at all. *But it seems to me that players tend to hook up with players too... The girls that they pickup and have ONS is well, a ONS type of girl. It is harder to hook up a woman who has higher and stricter standards. Besides, why go into a relationship with a no-premarital sex- woman when there are sex-on-third-date women out there?
> I'm just showing that people tend to go for people who have the same values.*
> 
> 
> I think parents need to inform daughters how to choose a responsible, family minded men.. to avoid players.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> And men who use hookers are players.. Using the easiest way to get sex/women.


:iagree:

Funny thing is , last year I was on a particular thread on this forum debating this PUA stuff .

I tried as best as I could to explain to a bunch of ladies on that thread that the women who PUA's have success with are themselves into that same lifestyle. They're both players.

I tried to tell them that all a girl had to do to avoid becoming 
" victim" PUA's and players was be more responsible in her choice of partners..
I tried,
I tried, but alas , I failed.

They somehow managed to convince themselves that PUA's were responsible for a woman's choice of sexual partners , especially if she got played...


----------



## Caribbean Man

Interesting thread.

Just a side note; _In some countries , prostitution is legal. For example , in Costa Rica it is legal for anyone above the age of 18 , both male and female to have sex in exchange for money, but pimping is illegal._

Now, has it occurred to anyone here that very affluent , well respected upper class women actually pay men to have sex with them too?
And that they pay many times more than what their male counterparts pay for sex with " street " hookers?

Just like Thailand and Brazil are famous destinations for male sex tourists, the female sex tourists is what makes the Caribbean a hot destination. The average female can't afford a vacation at seven miles beach, Negril in Jamaica , Crane beach and beach resorts , Barbados , Shaol Bay East Resorts , Anguilla or Sandy Point Beach Club and Villas , Tobago.
Those are just a few well known resorts famous for their " beach boy " culture. 
Usually , the more seasoned , wealthy female sex tourist tend to bypass the resorts , for the local, " bed & breakfast " type of accommodation where they would rent a young man for their entire vacation , outside of the public glare.
And they pay , handsomely.

So maybe to get a better perspective , we could look at , _why do people pay for sex._

That, is a very complex question.


----------



## ca-nami

Caribbean Man said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Just a side note; _In some countries , prostitution is legal. For example , in Costa Rica it is legal for anyone above the age of 18 , both male and female to have sex in exchange for money, but pimping is illegal._
> 
> Now, has it occurred to anyone here that very affluent , well respected upper class women actually pay men to have sex with them too?
> And that they pay many times more than what their male counterparts pay for sex with " street " hookers?
> 
> Just like Thailand and Brazil are famous destinations for male sex tourists, the female sex tourists is what makes the Caribbean a hot destination. The average female can't afford a vacation at seven miles beach, Negril in Jamaica , Crane beach and beach resorts , Barbados , Shaol Bay East Resorts , Anguilla or Sandy Point Beach Club and Villas , Tobago.
> 
> *So maybe to get a better perspective , we could look at , why do people pay for sex*_._
> 
> That, is a very complex question.


Because they like sex? Is this somehow evil? or does your own morality override all?


----------



## Caribbean Man

ca-nami said:


> Because they like sex? Is this somehow evil? or does your own morality override all?


Almost everyone likes sex.
But if we are to examine the question , sex is _supposed_ to be free, but is it really free?
If it is free, then why do people pay money , sometimes lots of money for sex?


----------



## ca-nami

Supposed? By whom and from where? Do you actually ground your views?


----------



## TiggyBlue

Caribbean Man said:


> Now, has it occurred to anyone here that very affluent , well respected upper class women actually pay men to have sex with them too?.


Not long ago the demand for male prostitutes when the UEFA Euro started was all over the news 
Demand for male escorts rises by 26 pc since Euro kicked off


----------



## ReformedHubby

I'm glad this thread has started to get more realistic posts about why men pay for sex and the type of men that do. Based on my experience the lonely pathetic unattractive guy with no game has pretty much lost interest in sex/given up once they reach a certain age, and does not represent the most frequent customer.

The guys paying for prostitutes are seeking variety and sex "their way". Also, lets not kid ourselves. If there weren't a lot of men using them there wouldn't be so many working girls. They don't call it the world's oldest profession for nothing.


----------



## yours4ever

2ntnuf said:


> May I tell a true story?
> 
> There is a guy who worked at a steel mill all his life. He never had much luck with women. He was hurt once really badly. After that, he did all he could to make a decent living and retirement for himself. He made a good hourly rate. He worked as much as he could. He saved and scrimped.
> 
> It was said, he would, once in a while, I think it was once a month, go where he could find a woman to sleep with. It wasn't often. He was never a PUA. He wasn't homely, but neither was he very attractive. He was clean and decent, but not very religious.
> 
> He never had a girlfriend. He couldn't risk his, "heart", any more.
> 
> He lived a decent life, other than that. He had no family. They were all gone or had abandoned him. He was alone.
> 
> When he died, he was so thankful to the steel mill for the life they provided him, he gave them what was left of his money. It was a million dollar savings. Specifically, I think it was a 401k, but I'm not certain.



Ops.what i meant was a man who looks for hookers have some same values and perspectives as a player.

1. Doesn't want commitment to another person's happiness, trust and loyal companionship.
2. Doesn't care about the sex object.
3. Want the easy way to something which is rewarding.. May i say lazy? 

The only different with your story is that person's degree of laziness, aloofness or cowardise.


Another very good, and real example of "a hooker for a player; a lady for a responsible man" is this:
A PUA got played by a gold digger. 
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1014/what-the-hell-happened-pua


Link is from my beloved hubby, who "was once a pua" (i dont agree with this qoute since he practise to be one with the goal of finding a wife)


My conclusion is that a man who pays for sex is not a good potential husband, due to his values that lead to paying for hookers.
That is all from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ca-nami

yours4ever said:


> Ops.what i meant was a man who looks for hookers have some same values and perspectives as a player.
> 
> 1. Doesn't want commitment to another person's happiness, trust and loyal companionship.
> 2. Doesn't care about the sex object.
> 3. Want the easy way to something which is rewarding.. May i say lazy?
> 
> The only different with your story is that person's degree of laziness, aloofness or cowardise.
> 
> 
> Another very good, and real example of "a hooker for a player; a lady for a responsible man" is this:
> A PUA got played by a gold digger.
> What the hell happened? (PUA) - Married Man Sex Life Forum
> 
> 
> Link is from my beloved hubby, who "was once a pua" (i dont agree with this qoute since he practise to be one with the goal of finding a wife)
> 
> 
> My conclusion is that a man who pays for sex is not a good potential husband, due to his values that lead to paying for hookers.
> That is all from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So liking sex is bad, got it lol.. 

Wow, so judgmental..


----------



## 2ntnuf

yours4ever said:


> Ops.what i meant was a man who looks for hookers have some same values and perspectives as a player.
> 
> 1. Doesn't want commitment to another person's happiness, trust and loyal companionship.
> 2. Doesn't care about the sex object.
> 3. Want the easy way to something which is rewarding.. May i say lazy?
> 
> The only different with your story is that person's degree of laziness, aloofness or cowardise.
> 
> 
> Another very good, and real example of "a hooker for a player; a lady for a responsible man" is this:
> A PUA got played by a gold digger.
> What the hell happened? (PUA) - Married Man Sex Life Forum
> 
> 
> Link is from my beloved hubby, who "was once a pua" (i dont agree with this qoute since he practise to be one with the goal of finding a wife)
> 
> 
> My conclusion is that a man who pays for sex is not a good potential husband, due to his values that lead to paying for hookers.
> That is all from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This was what another respectable member posted after I wrote that, and then, my response.




Machiavelli said:


> That's a pretty pathetic story.





2ntnuf said:


> It is, but it does illustrate my point, that not all are PUA's.


I think we are in agreement. One thing you are not considering. This guy chose to do that rather than get married. It is pathetic, but it also illustrates the depth to which a person might be harmed by infidelity and revenge associated with the WS, who believed to be pushed to the affair. I don't know the exact circumstances. I know it was miserable for both spouses. Revenge, while in some ways SEEMS satisfying, will ultimately cause more issues than were present originally. 

Maybe I needed to explain even further? 

Can you blame a person for believing they are worthless or worth so little that they will not find a decent spouse? Can you blame a person for being so beaten down that they give up?

*Edit:* Also, consider that so many here claim that sex is a need. If it's a need, this guy did the only thing he could do to keep from hurting his, "heart", further. Although there are bonding chemicals released with sex. He had no expectations that she would be faithful, so he could release himself from the burden of guilt that he might have caused her to be unfaithful. End of edit. 

I think, if it was a woman who had been abused, you might believe differently when she goes out and sleeps with as many partners as she can find. For me, this is similar. 

While we may believe it's not the best course of action, I, personally, can certainly understand the consideration of such actions. 

Just to clarify, I've never paid for sex.

Which brings up a thought. Are we all kind of prostituting ourselves? Many here have said that love is conditional. What is that price and does that make us a kind of prostitute? Interesting to think about. I know many will not even allow themselves to consider that thought.


----------



## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> Which brings up a thought. Are we all kind of prostituting ourselves? Many here have said that love is conditional. What is that price and does that make us a kind of prostitute? Interesting to think about. I know many will not even allow themselves to consider that thought.


Sex is always going to require an exchange, even if it's mutual and nothing more than bodily fluids.

Marriage itself is nothing more than a promise of male protection of the female and provision of food and shelter for her and her offspring in exchange for exclusive sex and no bastards to raise.

In CM's comment about sex tourism for old bags in the Caribbean area, he mentioned that these women pay a lot more for sex than guys do. Of course, the reason this is the case is so the woman's rationalization hamster can spin the transaction up into "romance." It's never a crass $20 for a BJ, it's I have a sick mom and we need help at home, etc, post coital I would speculate, while the woman is coming down from hottest sex of her old life. Then they end up sending money to the guy even after they have returned home. They have to believe there is a "romance" in there somewhere to self-justify the hot sex. The woman gets "romance" (actually just hot sex) and the guy gets some dough.

The scary part about this above is how many of these women haven't bothered to get divorced first.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Sex is always going to require an exchange, even if it's mutual and nothing more than bodily fluids.
> 
> Marriage itself is nothing more than a promise of male protection of the female and provision of food and shelter for her and her offspring in exchange for exclusive sex and no bastards to raise.
> 
> In CM's comment about sex tourism for old bags in the Caribbean area, he mentioned that these women pay a lot more for sex than guys do. Of course, the reason this is the case is so the woman's rationalization hamster can spin the transaction up into "romance." It's never a crass $20 for a BJ, it's I have a sick mom and we need help at home, etc, post coital I would speculate, while the woman is coming down from hottest sex of her old life. Then they end up sending money to the guy even after they have returned home. They have to believe there is a "romance" in there somewhere to self-justify the hot sex. The woman gets "romance" (actually just hot sex) and the guy gets some dough.
> 
> The scary part about this above is how many of these women haven't bothered to get divorced first.


You wonder whose money they spend on their "romance"


----------



## yours4ever

2ntnuf,
You have good points there for us to ponder. 

I am a sahm. (Sure he brings back the money and i do most of housework, serving him n baby, and cooking -- with very little "salaries and bonuses".) and there was a time when I was overwhelmed by work and was too emotional, I shouted at my husband, "it is very convenient for you right? To have me as a 3 in one : a maid, a nanny and a prostitute!"

And just now, recently, after sex, my husband said, "were you a prostitute?"

Now, of cause i did not have sex with him for money. Did i do it for my own pleasure? No. That wasn't the reason at all. I did it because of love :- i desire him and wanting to please him. 

Both parties (he and i) love each other. 

That is the huge thing MISSING from hooker and client's relationship. 

Is sex free? No. A spouse or suitor needs to earn the right to sex and must gain love from the mate. 

Why? When sex is easily available( listen, sisters and hookers), the value/reason for marriage lessen.But this is another big heavy topic. I believe i already answered OP's questions in previous posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> In CM's comment about sex tourism for old bags in the Caribbean area, he mentioned that these women pay a lot more for sex than guys do. Of course, the reason this is the case is so the woman's rationalization hamster can spin the transaction up into "romance." It's never a crass $20 for a BJ, it's I have a sick mom and we need help at home, etc, post coital I would speculate, while the woman is coming down from hottest sex of her old life. Then they end up sending money to the guy even after they have returned home. They have to believe there is a "romance" in there somewhere to self-justify the hot sex. The woman gets "romance" (actually just hot sex) and the guy gets some dough.
> 
> The scary part about this above is how many of these women haven't bothered to get divorced first.


Horse crap. Women go for rent-a-stud for the same reasons men hire girls: they want sex with a hot young thing, and they want it their way, with no complications and entanglements. Keeping one on the line isn't about romance, it's about not having to screen and train new ones year after year. And while many are married, most are probably single.

Plenty of old fart men also pay handsomely for a "companion" in the sex tourism industry, and will even buy their prostitutes houses and whatnot, so they can have their little "love nest" away from home. Or will rent their girl for the week or two that they are on vacation, and book them into their hotel room. While lots of men will hire girls for a cheap bj in a back alley at home, sex tourism is often about getting the girlfriend experience at a price they can actually afford. Plenty of these men are also married.

Sex tourism is IMHO an especially seedy affair, as it's capitalizing on economic disparity in a way that turns entire cultures into sex toys for another. Sure you can argue that the prostitutes are "choosing" to make a "better" living just by having sex, but I find it disastrously sad when this "choice" is the "better" one -- for all kinds of reasons.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Machiavelli said:


> Sex is always going to require an exchange, even if it's mutual and nothing more than bodily fluids.


I'm not sure I understand. In my mind, there is always a price. It can then, be, "like", prostitution. Society has placed prostitution in a bad light, just as promiscuity once was. The "need", must be filled.



Machiavelli said:


> Marriage itself is nothing more than a promise of male protection of the female and provision of food and shelter for her and her offspring in exchange for exclusive sex and no bastards to raise.


I agree when thinking in terms of the not so distant past. I saw this in my mother and father. Mum worked, but that was not her main duty, and not why she got married. She only worked a part-time job and that was in her later years when my sister and I were older. 

That kind of lifestyle is today, called, a SAHM. She was that until she got her part-time job that gave her a paycheck. Before that, she prided herself on being the best wife and mother, she could be. 

Of course, the flip-side is that dad had to provide for the family and make certain she was happy. If that fell apart, there would have been societal shame placed on him, that is not so prevalent today in the same circumstances. 

I'm sure you know all of this. I guess I wanted you to know I do, as well. The thing is, it's not that way for women today, who have their own careers. Even those who do not are capable of finding one and supporting themselves. 

I think this is great, but it changes the dynamics. Who wants a woman who has her own income, assuming the man has his own, and doesn't want to combine incomes for the greater power it provides to have better financial stability? Maybe I'm confused here? I'm at least trying.



Machiavelli said:


> In CM's comment about sex tourism for old bags in the Caribbean area, he mentioned that these women pay a lot more for sex than guys do. Of course, the reason this is the case is so the woman's rationalization hamster can spin the transaction up into "romance." It's never a crass $20 for a BJ, it's I have a sick mom and we need help at home, etc, post coital I would speculate, while the woman is coming down from hottest sex of her old life. Then they end up sending money to the guy even after they have returned home. They have to believe there is a "romance" in there somewhere to self-justify the hot sex. The woman gets "romance" (actually just hot sex) and the guy gets some dough.


We all justify our actions, don't we? We rationalize so we don't lose our minds, when we don't follow our conscience. 



Machiavelli said:


> The scary part about this above is how many of these women haven't bothered to get divorced first.


Yeah, scary for their husbands, who think they have a faithful/monogamous, spouse, and are doing all they can to provide. I guess the need for money to provide a living is more powerful than a need for sex. Sex becomes a means to an end. Is it always a means to an end? I don't think it is. Sometimes I wonder.


----------



## ca-nami

MissFroggie said:


> Same as an audience going to the theatre - they know it's not real but have bought into the suspension of disbelief. Even if something goes wrong or doesn't quite add up they'll ignore that and accept the fantasy because they have paid for that adventure, that journey and are invested in it.
> 
> The risk with the GFE etc is that it is easier for someone to become convinced there is more to it and they could get hurt or attached to the point of addiction or exploited by the prostitute who is feeding their need for affection and friendship. An audience member going to the theatre is under very little risk of this unless they have some kind of mental health issue that prevents them from differentiating between fiction and reality. Anyone using a prostitute for the GFE should be extra careful not to get too drawn into the fantasy they have built.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course that's an option  However there are plenty who don't do that too and they should definitely be careful not to screw their lives over. There are also plenty who are not married who do too - so no risk of divorce etc too. I'd say that if you're doing it to watch your back, but it feels more appropriate (and a little bit kinky - mirrors on the ceilings etc ha ha) to say 'watch your butt'
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't saying that 'most men who use prostitutes are not healthy' - it was reference to the OP which was what we were responding to and described a very unhealthy situation that was hurting his friend and his friend's ability to form meaningful relationships
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and I think there is something pretty gross with that too lol. I agree, it would be more interesting to look at 'why do people pay for sex?'


er.. I think the issue is that you don't/cannot get the real world.

And who follows laws? lol.. only chumps do..


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> *Then they end up sending money to the guy even after they have returned home. They have to believe there is a "romance" in there somewhere to self-justify the hot sex. The woman gets "romance" (actually just hot sex) and the guy gets some dough.
> *


Mach,
Do you live in the Caribbean!
LMAO, You hit the nail right on the head!

" _The Bank job_ " is an interesting movie based on the true story of a series of events that took place during the 70's when a member of the British Royal family was photographed on a private beach in the Caribbean frolicking in the nude with a beach boy,. Jason Stratham starred in that flick.

There's this guy I grew up with who was part of the
" beach boy " scene in his 20's.
A German woman woman used to visit the island every year. She literally " owned" him whenever she came and when she left she bought him expensive gifts. The guy even got a Peugeot 307 coupe convertible from that woman. One year she paid for his ticket for them to holiday somewhere in Europe. 
Some of those guys live off the hog. Those women literally maintain them.

The first time I took my wife to the resort island I was born and grew up, [ we currently live on another island] she was amazed when a cruise ship full of women came in and these women came in droves, some with pictures of guys asking people for them by name.
It's a well organized international sex trade, and its mostly mature , affluent European women.
The younger professional ones tend to stick to the expensive resorts / hotels and pick up cheap beach boys on the beach.
They all come to party and have a good time.

I recently saw a documentary on it, I'll try to locate it on Youtube and post it here, but ever since i was a kid, that type of sex trade has been going on.


----------



## 2ntnuf

yours4ever said:


> 2ntnuf,
> You have good points there for us to ponder.


I don't do it for others alone. I do it for me, too. I read what you write. You all have valid points to consider. You are all helpful to me. Thank you.




yours4ever said:


> I am a sahm. (Sure he brings back the money and i do most of housework, serving him n baby, and cooking -- with very little "salaries and bonuses".) and there was a time when I was overwhelmed by work and was too emotional, I shouted at my husband, "it is very convenient for you right? To have me as a 3 in one : a maid, a nanny and a prostitute!"
> 
> And just now, recently, after sex, my husband said, "were you a prostitute?"


SAHM's do not, in many cases, get the respect they deserve. In my opinion, it's because you do your job so well. The husband does not have to pay for it to be done, so, after a while, his appreciation for all that you do, which is vital to all that the family accomplishes, is less. 

Sure, he can do it on his own. It won't be easy, nor will it be as profitable(more than money). I cannot express this enough. Many do not appreciate the efforts that a quality SAHM puts into the smooth operation of the family unit AND the marriage.



yours4ever said:


> Now, of cause i did not have sex with him for money. Did i do it for my own pleasure? No. That wasn't the reason at all. I did it because of love :- i desire him and wanting to please him.
> 
> Both parties (he and i) love each other.
> 
> That is the huge thing MISSING from hooker and client's relationship.


I would not think you would do it for money. 

While the availability of a quality woman who is monogamous, is one part of the reason, in my opinion, to get married, it is not love if it is not given freely from the heart, with desire.

That's how I am. I don't know how anyone else is. I don't want it, if she is not into me. It's not fun. It's not satisfying, emotionally. That is the kind of sex that can be obtained by other means. 




yours4ever said:


> Is sex free? No. A spouse or suitor needs to earn the right to sex and must gain love from the mate.


We agree.



yours4ever said:


> Why? When sex is easily available( listen, sisters and hookers), the value/reason for marriage lessen.But this is another big heavy topic. I believe i already answered OP's questions in previous posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it really doesn't. ONS sex is hot, but there is no, "real", love there. There is attraction love, or infatuation. In prostitution, there is only physical release. The woman doesn't even want, "you". She wants money. If she could get that kind of money, with the attention she is getting, she may do it some other way. There is also, sometimes, drugs and abuse involved, which change her decision making abilities.

Marital sex, is a combination of desire, infatuation, longing for that husband or wife, deep emotional connection through loving actions, looks, and words. The satisfaction of marital sex or even committed relationship sex, to some extent, goes way beyond what could ever be achieved otherwise. 

There is great value in marital sex. Nothing else, in my opinion, can compare. When folks think otherwise, it makes me wonder why they bother to get married at all. They can live together and combine as much income as they feel safe. They can share the chores and bills. It will be similar, but still not the same.


----------



## CuddleBug

temperance said:


> I was just talking to a friend who shows me where he 'order' his hookers. One of my best friend (a different guy) who is a heavy user of call girls, I call him a prostitute addict! My best friend is not a handsome guy, but a great guy, have a great education and a great job, early decent income. I have seen him going into two serious relationships and got dumped twice over the years, heartbroken and all. He is desperately looking for a new girlfriend for number of years now, he is in his 40s now... but he is a hooker addict for sure. He would spend thousands of dollars a month on hookers and then regret spending the money he can't effort! He told me, 'only if I have a girlfriend/wife'.
> 
> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.
> 
> Some of these girls are sweet on the phone too, honey this, sweetheart that, some young and beautiful, (yea see how i bond with all my guys pals... they would put them on a speaker phone and let me listen). But well.. they all earns like doctors! Anyways... that's besides the point. Most of my friends who order, they would go into what they want and bargain for a price to get what they want. And I realized...they want the 'girlfriend experience'.
> 
> I came across this article,
> Sun News : Men visit hookers for cuddling and companionship: Study
> 
> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?



I've never ordered an escort, had a stripper or prostitute before. Not my thing and if I was into that, Mrs. CB wouldn't of married me.

There are so many online dating sites, I don't see why a guy can't create an account and start looking. He can truthfully enter what he's looking for in a woman / wife, hobbies, interests, life goals, current pics of himself and you name it. Many women to meet. What about local dating stores in the city he lives?

Quick and easy to do and he will have a gf and maybe wife in no time because you're being honest with what you're looking for with each other.


----------



## Caribbean Man

2galsmom said:


> If men want to hire women for sex and pay them to listen and act like they care, I think the business should be regulated and they should be paid fair wages and get their healthcare and dental in the process.


In some societies, that is the case.
Back in the olden days they were called " concubines." Their families were made rich in exchange for the said service to the king or some important government official .


----------



## ca-nami

Caribbean Man said:


> In some societies, that is the case.
> Back in the olden days they were called " concubines." Their families were made rich in exchange for the said service to the king or some important government official .


So according to you, paying for sex is a pathology.

Prove it. Can you cite a peer reviewed text stating as such?


----------



## treyvion

2galsmom said:


> No it isn't nonsense. You miss the point with all of your ability and insight? The problem comes when you think you need another person to be happy, to pay your bills, to complete your life and then seek happiness through another person. Both genders do this and men are fish as well.
> 
> That is the point, it is not an anti-man comment, it is a pro be a whole person comment.


Unfortunately, we can be happy by ourselves. But with the add in of the other person and their viewpoint towards our stuff and their priorities we may become upset to sad. I mean some people are tough to be around, because they think the world revolves around them. So you do need the right relationship partner to be stay happy.



2galsmom said:


> Men are taught by society, memes and sometimes directly that they are to be powerful and in charge. This poses quite a predicament when women do not comply. Are they failures as men? The woman is not obedient, well a hooker is. You tell a hooker to listen she listens, she does whatever you say, all you have to do is pay her.


A strong woman should enjoy feeding her males masculine side as long as he takes care of responsibilities. It should not be a competition at all. Unfortunately biology made the male and female a certain way. Yes women need to work and be able to take care of themself these days, but a real woman needs a man and a real man needs a woman, you can't get around this.

Single people get around it by dealing with a whole lot of people of the opposite sex and getting bits and pieces here and there.



2galsmom said:


> What does, aside from the pregnancy part, does a woman NEED a man for? Honestly I would like a non-emotional objective list.


It would be wise to have a man for physical protection, safe sex with the opposite sex, an additional source of income, someone to share the time and responsibility of the tasks and chores in the house, also someone to cover you so even if your family and politics turned on you, that you have support.



2galsmom said:


> Companionship? How is male companionship needed and for a man vice versa? Sex?


Unfortunately, I'm more of a man with women around me who act like a woman and feed my masculine side. I cannot get around this being strong in the man realm without women, I'm not gay. I'm a man.



2galsmom said:


> I think people do not know how to fill their own lives with meaning and look to sex, or companionship with others to fill it, and inevitable it often fails.


Unfortunately we are going to have sex and companionship whether we do it the single way or the relationship way and others the gay way,and you have your asexuals too.



2galsmom said:


> As for all women wanting to return to their twenties, not all. I know one personally who has no desire to return to the mindset she had in her twenties, the lessons came hard earned and she is looking forward to being an adult and the sum of her experiences. So if one party girl is not embittered and longing for the past therefore not ALL woman wish to return to their twenties.


The twenties is about people being young, dumb and full of cum. So theres a lot of lessons you should have gotten out of there, without having to go repeat the stupid mistakes. There are some who make it thru their twenties having been responsible and steadfast the entire time but it's not the majority.



2galsmom said:


> The only exception would be to return with the wisdom she has now, and she would not spend her time looking for a bicycle, she would swim well and strong and see what other fish she met along the way.


Right... We may return to our 20's to make much better use of those 10 years, not following others or pop-culture, and being super duper productive and putting ourselves in a much better position in life.



2galsmom said:


> If men want to hire women for sex and pay them to listen and act like they care, I think the business should be regulated and they should be paid fair wages and get their healthcare and dental in the process.


Men always will and women always will do this too. Happened before christ walked the earth. I don't support it, but I realize it's a part of life so it will happen.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ca-nami said:


> So according to you, paying for sex is a pathology.
> 
> Prove it. Can you cite a peer reviewed text stating as such?


Dude,
I think you've dialed the wrong number...


----------



## Caribbean Man

2galsmom said:


> What does, aside from the pregnancy part, does a woman NEED a man for? Honestly I would like a non-emotional objective list.


I think it's kinda hard given today's socioeconomic realities to purchase a house , own a vehicle and live a decent life on a single salary , whether male or female.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Caribbean Man said:


> There's this guy I grew up with who was part of the
> " beach boy " scene in his 20's.
> A German woman woman used to visit the island every year. She literally " owned" him whenever she came and when she left she bought him expensive gifts. The guy even got a Peugeot 307 coupe convertible from that woman. One year she paid for his ticket for them to holiday somewhere in Europe.
> *Some of those guys live off the hog. Those women literally maintain them.*


I worked with a female exec that went down to Trinidad and fell in "love". It was during the time when that book came out about the older black woman that met a young Caribbean stud. That guy must have had all kinds of game because she moved him back to America. He didn't have to work or do anything. She even let him bring his best friend up to live with her too. I lost touch with her but remember feeling kind of sorry for her. They were still going strong last time we talked but I got the feeling it probably wouldn't last. She was completely supporting him.


----------



## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> She even let him bring his best friend up to live with her too. I lost touch with her but remember feeling kind of sorry for her. They were still going strong last time we talked but I got the feeling it probably wouldn't last.


She has two hot young guys to play with, and you feel sorry for her? Why?

Would you feel sorry for the man who imported and supported two hot young women?


----------



## treyvion

2galsmom said:


> Trying to learn here, so what have we?
> 
> Why the need?


You'll live without it, but life will be better with it.



2galsmom said:


> It is just the way it is, PERIOD.
> 
> Not a persuasive answer.
> 
> So that is why people rush into relationships, I need one, that is the way it is period, months later . . . . uh oh I don't need this %$%#.


People are mimicking pop-culture and repeating some of the "the dumb are c0cksure while the intelligent are full of doubt" quotes. So they do and interact in basically dysfunctional ways.



2galsmom said:


> Honestly, so are we back to economics? We need one another to pay bills?
> 
> That is not enough to stay together. Just get lower bills. Yes. It can be done.


Most people are going to have a same sex room mate or someone. May as well stop all this fighting and males and females work together and respect each other.



2galsmom said:


> I am not proposing everyone return to Sparta (although they were victorious with Athens and Persia) and live in a segregated society but I think we are at an important point in social evolution where traditional thinking has failed us, we have, both genders been brainwashed to some extent and to be fitful we need to question it.


Yeah we are brainwashed to think like males and females are different species.



2galsmom said:


> On my list of To-Read books which is growing by the second so I will take another TAM break is by Anthony de Mello. It has in fact been mentioned on TAM and I have seen him mentioned elsewhere. We have bought into something we cannot attain, so we seek it elsewhere and in ways that will never actually make us "happy."


You should be able to be happy by ourself, but our choice of friends and/or relation partners can either add to it or take from it. Yes, you can be happy and your interaction dejects you, diminishes you, angers you.



2galsmom said:


> Hookers are one of them. I suspect they put a band aide on a larger wound and simply address the symptoms of a man's issues rather the core issue.


Hookers been around at christ. We ID'd on here how a reliance on them can be a very bad thing.



2galsmom said:


> That's all. You have do address your own issues and "needing" another person has led to more problems than it has helped.
> 
> Same with sex. That is where the useful regret of the 20s comes in so handy . . .


LOL



2galsmom said:


> If you notice, Mr. Sheen in real life on whom his character is largely based started with one hooker/porn star and at one point he was up to three at a time, well if three doesn't solve my problems maybe 4 will!


Yeah, so he had 3 problems and adding another problem is going to make things better.



2galsmom said:


> I won't buy into only weak women are single and strong women are with men because it is not true, and no I am not advocating men and women SHOULD remain single either.


I'm glad you feel this way. A good man is not afraid of a strong woman. However if the womens strength is at his expense he might not find it a good thing at all.


----------



## ReformedHubby

2galsmom said:


> Hookers are one of them. I suspect they put a band aide on a larger wound and simply address the symptoms of a man's issues rather the core issue.
> 
> That's all. You have do address your own issues and "needing" another person has led to more problems than it has helped.


I still maintain that a lot of you guys are way over analyzing this stuff. I think I'm the only guy in this thread that's admitted to being with one and I have to tell you that men just aren't that complicated. Ordering a call girl is pretty much the same as ordering a pizza for the men in that lifestyle. They pick size, race, hair color, etc. handle their business and the girl leaves.

The only need being addressed is a temporary itch. They are horny. Nothing more nothing less. These men don't pay them for companionship. They pay them to leave. Granted all of the men I know that use call girls are other executives and business owners. Perhaps the every day guy is different but I doubt it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ReformedHubby said:


> I worked with a female exec that went down to Trinidad and fell in "love". It was during the time when that book came out about the older black woman that met a young Caribbean stud. *That guy must have had all kinds of game because she moved him back to America. He didn't have to work or do anything. She even let him bring his best friend up to live with her too.* I lost touch with her but remember feeling kind of sorry for her. They were still going strong last time we talked but I got the feeling it probably wouldn't last. She was completely supporting him.


These guys don't really have any " game " per say.

These women just like how things and people are laid back down here. They meet such a guy and he realizes she's loaded and he treats them like a princess. He does everything for her because that's where his money's coming from.

I know this younger guy from my older neighbourhood who started working on a cruise ship. On his first cruise, he met this older affluent , single black woman., a millionaire who owned a business. She's about 10 yrs older than him . She took him off that cruise ship job, they flew back down here,got married in a lavish ceremony on the beach. She treats him like some kind of king. My wife and her are very close, they live in very nice area in San Diego. He's a lucky man.
But I don't think I can live like that.

Funny thing is, even though he lives up there, he's always down here , two or three times yearly partying hard..

What a life!


----------



## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> She has two hot young guys to play with, and you feel sorry for her? Why?
> 
> Would you feel sorry for the man who imported and supported two hot young women?


LOL, the thought did cross my mind that she was sleeping with both. I don't think so though. Even though he didn't work the first dude she bought over first was super romantic. He would cook for her, draw her a bubble batch etc. etc. I think she was in love with him. Who knows, maybe they are still together.

Regarding the man, it depends. If he was gullible and actually believed that the two hot women actually wanted to be with him than I would feel sorry for him. If he knew what he was buying and that it won't last then its no big deal.


----------



## always_alone

2galsmom said:


> Hookers are one of them. I suspect they put a band aide on a larger wound and simply address the symptoms of a man's issues rather the core issue.





ReformedHubby said:


> I still maintain that a lot of you guys are way over analyzing this stuff. I think I'm the only guy in this thread that's admitted to being with one and I have to tell you that men just aren't that complicated. Ordering a call girl is pretty much the same as ordering a pizza for the men in that lifestyle. They pick size, race, hair color, etc. handle their business and the girl leaves.


I rather think the whole point was to say that men (and women) who compartmentalize sex in this way are in fact covering up deeper issues.

Certainly, the men (and women) I've known to use prostitutes we're pretty much incapable of real intimacy, and wanted everything on their own terms. Only paid professionals will give you this.


----------



## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> I rather think the whole point was to say that men (and women) who compartmentalize sex in this way are in fact covering up deeper issues.
> 
> Certainly, the men (and women) I've known to use prostitutes we're pretty much incapable of real intimacy, and wanted everything on their own terms. Only paid professionals will give you this.


In my opinion you are 50% correct. Having it on your own terms in a sexual way without reciprocation is the appeal, at least for men. However the emotional aspect of it isn't what the john or jane (ha, ha) is seeking. 

People compartmentalize sex all the time. It doesn't mean they are incapable of intimacy or loving someone. Normally I don't put a whole lot of weight in my own opinion, but since I am the only one in this thread to admit to being with a prostitute I think I have a very good understanding of the motivation behind it. 

I don't think all people who pay for sex are flawed. If anything they know what they want and are willing to pay for it. Its 2 a.m. and you want some booty? Pick up the phone and order some. I know that sounds crass, but for _most_ men. That's all there is to it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

ReformedHubby said:


> In my opinion you are 50% correct. Having it on your own terms in a sexual way without reciprocation is the appeal, at least for men. However the emotional aspect of it isn't what the john or jane (ha, ha) is seeking.
> 
> People compartmentalize sex all the time. It doesn't mean they are incapable of intimacy or loving someone. Normally I don't put a whole lot of weight in my own opinion, but since I am the only one in this thread to admit to being with a prostitute I think I have a very good understanding of the motivation behind it.
> 
> I don't think all people who pay for sex are flawed. If anything they know what they want and are willing to pay for it. Its 2 a.m. and you want some booty? Pick up the phone and order some. I know that sounds crass, but for _most_ men. That's all there is to it.


I guarantee you, I'd admit to it if I was ever with one. I've made plenty of open posts condemning myself for things I've done. I personally, had an opinion from friends or relatives who I trusted. I also have considered it as a viable option.

I've, "thunk", on it for years, when I was in a drought. I even talked about it with lots of people, just to get opinions. Some I worked with and some I drank beer with. Their opinions aren't much different from the ones here. 

Not having the cash, probably helped stop me. Ii also understood that the ones on the corner are probably abused and on drugs. That helped stop me. I knew the higher priced ones were better choices, but, again, I have issues with having sex, with just anyone.

While I do understand the need for connection, the risks outweigh the benefits for me.


----------



## Daisy10

temperance said:


> I was just talking to a friend who shows me where he 'order' his hookers. One of my best friend (a different guy) who is a heavy user of call girls, I call him a prostitute addict! My best friend is not a handsome guy, but a great guy, have a great education and a great job, early decent income. I have seen him going into two serious relationships and got dumped twice over the years, heartbroken and all. He is desperately looking for a new girlfriend for number of years now, he is in his 40s now... but he is a hooker addict for sure. He would spend thousands of dollars a month on hookers and then regret spending the money he can't effort! He told me, 'only if I have a girlfriend/wife'.
> 
> But, the truth is, I know most, if not all, men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.
> 
> Some of these girls are sweet on the phone too, honey this, sweetheart that, some young and beautiful, (yea see how i bond with all my guys pals... they would put them on a speaker phone and let me listen). But well.. they all earns like doctors! Anyways... that's besides the point. Most of my friends who order, they would go into what they want and bargain for a price to get what they want. And I realized...they want the 'girlfriend experience'.
> 
> I came across this article,
> Sun News : Men visit hookers for cuddling and companionship: Study
> 
> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


Yes this is true.

Another good book to read is called "G Strings and Sympathy". It's a book about the complex dynamics between strippers and their clients.


----------



## Sandfly

Caribbean Man said:


> Just like Thailand and Brazil are famous destinations for male sex tourists, the female sex tourists is what makes the Caribbean a hot destination. The average female can't afford a vacation at seven miles beach, Negril in Jamaica , Crane beach and beach resorts , Barbados , Shaol Bay East Resorts , Anguilla or Sandy Point Beach Club and Villas , Tobago.
> Those are just a few well known resorts famous for their " beach boy " culture.


Dear CM, Good points!


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> Mach,
> Do you live in the Caribbean!
> LMAO, You hit the nail right on the head!
> 
> ....It's a well organized international sex trade, and its mostly mature , affluent European women.
> The younger professional ones tend to stick to the expensive resorts / hotels and pick up cheap beach boys on the beach.
> They all come to party and have a good time.


Thirty+ years ago worked with guys who were from the Caribbean and from Brazil and we used to trade stories. I thought the women were always after me, playing in a band as I was, but never with checkbook in hand.

About the same time, I had a friend of mine who was in Hawaii and studying Japanese on his Army education deal (what they used to call the GI Bill); basically, he was being a bum for a while courtesy of his savings and Uncle Sugar. He sees this very confused middle aged Japanese lady looking totally out to sea and asks her what's the problem, just trying to be helpful. Next thing you know, he's getting a phone call from a new Japanese woman about every two weeks, just arriving on the island and looking for a tour guide.


----------



## rubpy3

Just for devil's advocate, if I took all the money that I spent building relation and start family with stbxw, and spent them pooning, I would've laid 2, 3 times a week with a young hottie who will at least act to appreciate me and give me a GFE. Instead, i ended up with a sexless marriage for years and worked my ass off to support a damned self entitled b!7ch. The last time we even kissed was 2, 3 years ago.

Sure I don't get any emotion connection whatever, but at least I don't end up with a broken heart like I do now with stbx.


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Horse crap. Women go for rent-a-stud for the same reasons men hire girls: they want sex with a hot young thing, and they want it their way, with no complications and entanglements. Keeping one on the line isn't about romance, it's about not having to screen and train new ones year after year. And while many are married, most are probably single.


Even really really rough looking women can get all the NSA sex they want with no complications, other than the clap. They just won't be getting it with the very high rank males they want (Vee torso, tall, bulge); that requires something extra. Sometimes a lot extra, like a four engine bomber or two:

Porfirio Rubirosa

Notice the women were in lurv.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Even really really rough looking women can get all the NSA sex they want with no complications, other than the clap. They just won't be getting it with the very high rank males they want (Vee torso, tall, bulge); that requires something extra. Sometimes a lot extra, like a four engine bomber or two:
> 
> Porfirio Rubirosa
> 
> Notice the women were in lurv.


Their mouths were watering for this guy. I'm sure constantly...


----------



## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not sure I understand. In my mind, there is always a price. It can then, be, "like", prostitution. Society has placed prostitution in a bad light, just as promiscuity once was. The "need", must be filled.


Promiscuity remains in a bad light, except for some wittol freaks. Women with a long body count are a bad risk for marriage in a monogamous society.



2ntnuf said:


> I agree when thinking in terms of the not so distant past....Of course, the flip-side is that dad had to provide for the family and make certain she was happy. If that fell apart, there would have been societal shame placed on him, that is not so prevalent today in the same circumstances.
> 
> I'm sure you know all of this. I guess I wanted you to know I do, as well. The thing is, it's not that way for women today, who have their own careers. Even those who do not are capable of finding one and supporting themselves.


Not only is this true of high earning women, but also of women with no chance to support themselves. Women are great beneficiaries of government largesse for single mothers. It's no accident that as women's political power has increased, they have worked to have government replace the sexually marginal beta-providers they would have had to rely on in the past. Thanks to higher paying jobs or welfare, they are now free to ride the cøck carousel and collect baby daddies and the child support they bring with them.



2ntnuf said:


> I think this is great, but it changes the dynamics. Who wants a woman who has her own income, assuming the man has his own, and doesn't want to combine incomes for the greater power it provides to have better financial stability? Maybe I'm confused here? I'm at least trying.


So long as the present societal structure endures, there is absolutely no reason for any Anglo-sphere man to marry, with a couple of exceptions. They are men who want to be in control of the upbringing of their children and/or men who have religious objections to sex outside of marriage. Outside of those considerations, there is no upside, only downside. Thus saith Elvis, "Why buy the cow, when you can get milk through the fence."



2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, scary for their husbands, who think they have a faithful/monogamous, spouse, and are doing all they can to provide. I guess the need for money to provide a living is more powerful than a need for sex. Sex becomes a means to an end. Is it always a means to an end? I don't think it is. Sometimes I wonder.


No. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes sex is just sex. When we're talking about Olde English bags sending a couple thousand pounds a year to a 25 year old "lover" in the Caribbean to "help out" it's a means to an end.


----------



## Machiavelli

treyvion said:


> Their mouths were watering for this guy. I'm sure constantly...


Yeah, here's some more.

Notice his wives would rate no higher than 4 or 5 on the richter scale, but they would be billionaires in today's money. On the other hand, look at the side action he was getting: celebrity 9s and 10s. Again, though, these are female versions of Rubiroso himself. These women were notorious nymphomaniacs who used low rank, but wealthy and/or connected men as money spigots and career boosters simultaneously.


----------



## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> Even really really rough looking women can get all the NSA sex they want with no complications, other than the clap. They just won't be getting it with the very high rank males they want (Vee torso, tall, bulge); that requires something extra. Sometimes a lot extra, like a four engine bomber or two:
> 
> Porfirio Rubirosa
> 
> Notice the women were in lurv.


I went to visit the article. 

Mmm. I must confess I am more annoyed at men than women.

There is always some loser willing to suck up, pay and put out. There is always some little sneak waiting for a chance to turn his fake friendship into a come-on. Someone who is attending some class or playing some instrument or working in some job, not because he likes it, but because it's a way-in with gullible females.

There is always some guy who doesn't care about paternity, is perfectly happy to move in with a woman with three kids to someone else, and pay her mobile phone bills, to stay home with the kids while she goes off on the innocuous girls nights out.

Men are too easy. Where is the self-respect?

It has been mentioned that men don't seem to mind that the whole thing is fake, the relationship with prostitutes. 

Not just with prostitutes - with all the guys who are 'super nice' to you, shoulders to cry on at work etc.

Maybe I'm being too harsh. Perhaps these men have just adapted to what is expected of them.


----------



## Machiavelli

Sandfly said:


> Maybe I'm being too harsh. Perhaps these men have just adapted to what is expected of them.


When you reward a particular behavior, you get more of it.


----------



## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> When you reward a particular behavior, you get more of it.


Right, but the rewards for them are so slim...

I don't find fanny addictive. Take it or leave it. One is as good as the next - personality is a rarer prize. 

There seem to be men prepared to kill themselves for fanny though...

And it annoys me that there are men who bring the price of the rest of us down by flooding the market with their easy-ness.

What do I do? Join the Taliban?


----------



## Machiavelli

Sandfly said:


> Right, but the rewards for them are so slim...
> 
> I don't find fanny addictive. Take it or leave it. One is as good as the next - personality is a rarer prize.
> 
> There seem to be men prepared to kill themselves for fanny though...
> 
> And it annoys me that there are men who bring the price of the rest of us down by flooding the market with their easy-ness.
> 
> What do I do? Join the Taliban?


How do you feel about goats and boys?


----------



## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> How do you feel about goats and boys?


I feel that goats make a good curry, Very tasty. Boys could be useful as child-soldiers.

No attraction I'm afraid. Is this a requirement?


----------



## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> Normally I don't put a whole lot of weight in my own opinion, but since I am the only one in this thread to admit to being with a prostitute I think I have a very good understanding of the motivation behind it.
> 
> I don't think all people who pay for sex are flawed. If anything they know what they want and are willing to pay for it. Its 2 a.m. and you want some booty? Pick up the phone and order some. I know that sounds crass, but for _most_ men. That's all there is to it.


Ah, well. A friend of mine worked as a prostitute, and she said that at least 2/3 of her job was counselor and social worker. Yeah, they wanted sex, but what they really wanted was validation and acceptance.

Guys who visit prostitutes are usually either cheating or aren't able (or unwilling) to get some from a relationship. Which isn't always emotionally damaged, but often is. Word on the street is that it usually is, no matter how cavalier and studly the men wish to appear.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Even really really rough looking women can get all the NSA sex they want with no complications, other than the clap. They just won't be getting it with the very high rank males they want (Vee torso, tall, bulge); that requires something extra. Sometimes a lot extra, like a four engine bomber or two:
> 
> Porfirio Rubirosa
> 
> Notice the women were in lurv.


Huh??? Not seeing the connection between this playboy and the sugar mammas.

Except that I'm skeptical that "lurv" had anything to do with any of it either way. 

It's all about sex and money, and the power to have it all your way, no muss, no fuss.


----------



## looking for clarity

I discovered my husband was visiting prostitutes and escorts. He's a good looking successful man and I hardly ever turn him down for sex. He did this while I was pregnant and breast feeding and he had unprotected sex with me. Even though I have evidence, he won't admit he met with them. So, I don't know why.

It is the most horrifying feeling to know you could be exposed to a fatal disease without your knowledge. I am going to divorce him and so he is losing his family over this. And I don't know why he was willing to risk us to do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

There are se workers who actually have steady partners and a normal life outside of prostitution. They view the sex they have with clients as " work" and not pleasure. 
Given that quite a lot of people are in non monogamous relationships such as polyamorus , swinger lifestyle,casual sex , and so on , it isn't difficult to follow their rationale.
It is a form of compartmentalization , how well it works for them is another issue. 
Just want to put this out there for those who think that sex workers are some sort of lower life form , or from another planet.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Caribbean Man said:


> There are se workers who actually have steady partners and a normal life outside of prostitution. They view the sex they have with clients as " work" and not pleasure.
> Given that quite a lot of people are in non monogamous relationships such as polyamorus , swinger lifestyle,casual sex , and so on , it isn't difficult to follow their rationale.
> It is a form of compartmentalization , how well it works for them is another issue.
> Just want to put this out there for those who think that sex workers are some sort of lower life form , or from another planet.


Very true. Many are married with children and have what most would consider a very normal life outside of their work.


----------



## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> Ah, well. A friend of mine worked as a prostitute, and she said that at least 2/3 of her job was counselor and social worker. Yeah, they wanted sex, but what they really wanted was validation and acceptance.
> 
> Guys who visit prostitutes are usually either cheating or aren't able (or unwilling) to get some from a relationship. Which isn't always emotionally damaged, but often is. Word on the street is that it usually is, no matter how cavalier and studly the men wish to appear.


I'm sure there are vulnerable men that pay for sex but it isn't the norm. There are entire websites dedicated to detailed reviews of known prostitutes. The men on these sites don't discuss how these women make them feel or what they talked about. They specifically talk about what sex acts the prostitute performed and if she was any good at it or not. If people pursue ONS for sex why is it so hard for you to believe this is so different? At least under this scenario no one gets hurt. The customer and hooker both get what they wanted.


----------



## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm sure there are vulnerable men that pay for sex but it isn't the norm. There are entire websites dedicated to detailed reviews of known prostitutes. The men on these sites don't discuss how these women make them feel or what they talked about. They specifically talk about what sex acts the prostitute performed and if she was any good at it or not. If people pursue ONS for sex why is it so hard for you to believe this is so different? At least under this scenario no one gets hurt. The customer and hooker both get what they wanted.


It isn't hard for me to believe that men are pursuing prostitutes for sex. I just think a lot more of them are lonely, sad, vulnerable or emotionally cut off than you are willing to allow. Men always strut to show how impassive and studly they are, but it's often a mask.

A lot of the guys who pursue ONS are also vulnerable, having been hurt or rejected by women, or incapable of true intimacy, and in need of proving how studly and manly they are. 

This is not to say that they aren't actually cold and sex focused, as I'm sure they are. Just that it's emotional damage and scar tissue that often gets them that way.

I'd say the prostitutes know their clients better than the clients know themselves.


----------



## treyvion

looking for clarity said:


> I discovered my husband was visiting prostitutes and escorts. He's a good looking successful man and I hardly ever turn him down for sex. He did this while I was pregnant and breast feeding and he had unprotected sex with me. Even though I have evidence, he won't admit he met with them. So, I don't know why.
> 
> It is the most horrifying feeling to know you could be exposed to a fatal disease without your knowledge. I am going to divorce him and so he is losing his family over this. And I don't know why he was willing to risk us to do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Probably bragging to friends about it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

looking for clarity said:


> I discovered my husband was visiting prostitutes and escorts. He's a good looking successful man and I hardly ever turn him down for sex. He did this while I was pregnant and breast feeding and he had unprotected sex with me. Even though I have evidence, he won't admit he met with them. So, I don't know why.
> 
> It is the most horrifying feeling to know you could be exposed to a fatal disease without your knowledge. I am going to divorce him and so he is losing his family over this. And I don't know why he was willing to risk us to do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like your post in spite of the fact that you are in an unenviable position in your marriage because in the end, you did the right thing.
You divorced him.


However the fact remains that you STBXH was successful and good looking and still had sex with a sex worker.
That's what RH was trying to tell the others earlier in this thread.

Men tend to use prostitutes because it offers some sort of fantasy and completely ,no strings attached sex.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> However the fact remains that you STBXH was successful and good looking and still had sex with a sex worker.
> That's what RH was trying to tell the others earlier in this thread.
> 
> Men tend to use prostitutes because it offers some sort of fantasy and completely ,no strings attached sex.


And all I'm trying to say is that just because a man is successful and good looking, it doesn't mean he isn't severely damaged and incapable of emotional intimacy.

I knew this guy, for example, who was very good looking, owned his own business, and by all rights should have been a very eligible bachelor. He hired prostitutes all the time because he wanted sex his way, on his terms, with no commitment.

Thing is, he also wanted a girlfriend, and kept trying, but he couldn't handle the fact that they too had needs that interfered with his narcissistic need to have everything his way. So he destroyed relationship after relationship going back to prostitutes, and wondering what was wrong with all the women in this world.



Men like to play the studly role, no doubt. And keeping women as toys and playthings seems to help them do that. I guess it makes them feel superior? But some of the most apparently successful men are actually quite messed up. Would you like to hear the stories from a dominatrix?

There is definitely a difference between what you see on the surface and what is happening underneath.


----------



## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> Men like to play the studly role, no doubt. And keeping women as toys and playthings seems to help them do that. I guess it makes them feel superior? But some of the most apparently successful men are actually quite messed up. Would you like to hear the stories from a dominatrix?


AA I think you are very often way off on the psychological reasons for why most men do the things they do. A man is not thinking about how superior he is when picks up a hooker. He is almost always thinking about some part of her anatomy or what he wants to do with/to her. Also sleeping with a hooker is not an ego boost. When swapping tales with buddies about how much of a stud you used to be or how much game you had, telling a story about a woman you paid for is a non starter. What you have described in this thread is what makes sense from the female perspective, however men are much more driven by biology than psychology when paying for sex. 

One thing I did want to clarify. Just because there isn't a long term attachment it doesn't mean the men are cold towards the hooker and vice versa. Client and provider are usually very nice/cordial to one another throughout the transaction. However, lengthy conversations ain't happening when men are paying for 30 to 60 minutes of time. This is how it works from someone who knows. Choose to accept it or not. I'll let you have the last word, you always do anyway.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I have never and would never have sex with a prostitute, and I'm one of the people who thinks it should be legal. Something about it would just make me feel pathetic.

As for why someone would do it, I can only imagine that its a combination of sheer physical release and the illusion of validation (sort of an emotional-ish thing for men imo).

Then again there are men who get plenty of validation who still seek prostitutes. Maybe there are a lot of potential reasons.

Myself, I'd find having to pay for it to be kinda ego destroying... couldn't do it.


----------



## pidge70

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I have never and would never have sex with a prostitute, and I'm one of the people who thinks it should be legal. Something about it would just make me feel pathetic.
> 
> As for why someone would do it, I can only imagine that its a combination of sheer physical release and the illusion of validation (sort of an emotional-ish thing for men imo).
> 
> Then again there are men who get plenty of validation who still seek prostitutes. Maybe there are a lot of potential reasons.
> 
> Myself, I'd find having to pay for it to be kinda ego destroying... couldn't do it.


All men "pay" for sex in one way or another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Men like to play the studly role, no doubt. And keeping women as toys and playthings seems to help them do that. I guess it makes them feel superior?


I'm sure this applies to some men, but I think this is a very small minority. I also don't think paying prostitutes is anywhere near as commonplace as OP lets on.


----------



## treyvion

pidge70 said:


> All men "pay" for sex in one way or another.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some women pay.


----------



## ReformedHubby

MissFroggie said:


> I just want to say that one of the things I like about TAM is that inevitably posters reflect different points of view and don't always agree with one another. It's great for getting more insight into things and there have been things that I have had a fairly thought-out opinion about but someone else has said things that have changed my view. I like that because it shows the validity of having a discussion at all. I don't however like it when people start getting nippy with other posters on a more personal and insulting level, insisting that they are right when the fact is you can both be right and unless facts contradict an opinion in an absolutely indisputable way it is healthy to hear other opinions even if we do not agree. Please can we play nicely? The fact relating to this thread is that we actually don't know why men (or women) use hookers and even if we know a factual reason for one individual doesn't mean we know it for ALL individuals. The opinions on here are all valid and deserve respect as opinions.


I take it you are referring to my last post. Was it really that bad?


----------



## Lionelhutz

There was something on the Huffington Post ( I think) talking about the demographics of men who use sex workers. It is about 10% of the male population. The "typical" John varies significantly depending on they use street walkers or connect over the internet. Not surprisingly both income level and the likelihood that the John is married is greater if they connect with a sex worker over the internet as opposed to the street. 

There has been more talk about this lately here in Canada since the Supreme Court struck down a part of the laws on prostitution and there has been a sex worker advocacy group pushing for decriminalization. 

I don't think you will find any easy answers or one size fits all answer to this question of why some men use these services and why some women choose this line of work. It seems that it is everything from simple release, sexual adventurism, secret fetishes or loneliness. I think many men would feel more comfortable claiming they were "horny" and seeking sex then admitting to being sad and lonely. And as we can all see from these posts, there are lots of people who feel sad and lonely within a marriage.


----------



## ca-nami

always_alone said:


> It isn't hard for me to believe that men are pursuing prostitutes for sex. I just think a lot more of them are lonely, sad, vulnerable or emotionally cut off than you are willing to allow. Men always strut to show how impassive and studly they are, but it's often a mask.
> 
> A lot of the guys who pursue ONS are also vulnerable, having been hurt or rejected by women, or incapable of true intimacy, and in need of proving how studly and manly they are.
> 
> This is not to say that they aren't actually cold and sex focused, as I'm sure they are. Just that it's emotional damage and scar tissue that often gets them that way.
> 
> I'd say the prostitutes know their clients better than the clients know themselves.


er.. really? lol.. A lot of men who are into ONS simply like sex. Just because you deem it immoral, doesn't mean it's a pathology.


----------



## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> AA I think you are very often way off on the psychological reasons for why most men do the things they do. A man is not thinking about how superior he is when picks up a hooker. He is almost always thinking about some part of her anatomy or what he wants to do with/to her. Also sleeping with a hooker is not an ego boost.


Well, let me just say that, like many folks, what prostitutes do after work is much like what other people do. They get together to "unwind", and this often involves gossiping about their clients. It is quite interesting to be privvy to such conversations.

Of course, they are cordial with their clients. They are paid to be so. They will tell their clients whatever they want to hear. This does not mean that they respect them. Indeed, apparently one of the hardest parts of being a prostitute is refraining from laughing at him.

So, I'm sure that the men are focused on sex and body parts, but what they are revealing is their own selves and need for validation and ego-stroking (or punishment, or babying, or playing superhero or whatever).

All what you are saying to me is really that lots of men are so emotionally detached, they aren't only oblivious to their surroundings, they don't even see what it is they are showing to others.


----------



## always_alone

ca-nami said:


> er.. really? lol.. A lot of men who are into ONS simply like sex. Just because you deem it immoral, doesn't mean it's a pathology.


I didn't say it was immoral or pathological. Just a sign of how they view themselves and women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> And all I'm trying to say is that just because a man is successful and good looking, it doesn't mean he isn't severely damaged and incapable of emotional intimacy.
> 
> I knew this guy, for example, who was very good looking, owned his own business, and by all rights should have been a very eligible bachelor. He hired prostitutes all the time because he wanted sex his way, on his terms, with no commitment.
> 
> Thing is, he also wanted a girlfriend, and kept trying, but he couldn't handle the fact that they too had needs that interfered with his narcissistic need to have everything his way. So he destroyed relationship after relationship going back to prostitutes, and wondering what was wrong with all the women in this world.
> 
> 
> 
> *Men like to play the studly role, no doubt. And keeping women as toys and playthings seems to help them do that. I guess it makes them feel superior? But some of the most apparently successful men are actually quite messed up. Would you like to hear the stories from a dominatrix?*
> 
> There is definitely a difference between what you see on the surface and what is happening underneath.


Errr no.

Interpersonal relationships are intricate , delicate stuff that takes time and attention. Sometimes a man or single guy doesn't want the hassle of a relationship especially when he's a self made businessman with very little time or social life trying to build himself.
The average woman wouldn't want a man like that because they don't have the patience nor are willing to understand his drive and passion. He has no time for them neither the drama that goes with relationships. It isn't because he's narcissistic. They want no part of his dream, especially at those low times when it fails to deliver. He want's no part of any relationship related drama.
Fair enough

Remember that Richard Gere / Julia Roberts 90's movie " Pretty Woman?"
Well,there are special escort services available for men like that, and women who don't mind selling their services.


----------



## Caribbean Man

pidge70 said:


> All men "pay" for sex in one way or another.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, maybe, not really.

" _Though chaunge be no robbry for the chaunged case._."

Translation;

" _fair exchange is no robbery_..." 

So maybe it's just a fair exchange?


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> Errr no.
> 
> Remember that Richard Gere / Julia Roberts 90's movie " Pretty Woman?"
> Well,there are special escort services available for men like that, and women who don't mind selling their services.


So, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly:

You're saying that a man who is so wound up in his business, he has no time for interpersonal relationships, and no woman would have him because he doesn't have sufficient time to pay her any attention, is neither self-important nor lonely?

He'd prefer escorts, but it isn't because they come and go as he dictates, and always tell him what he wants to hear?

And this is emotionally healthy to your mind?


----------



## Caribbean Man

MissFroggie said:


> *I do think it is immoral because so many people involved in it are desperate to get out and hurting. I still think it would be better if it were decriminalised, especially for the prostitute as it would make it easier for them to get the help they need to get out of it if they want to.*
> 
> This article is quite clear about the damage prostitution causes and how damaged and let down most prostitutes were before they went down that route:
> 
> Facts About Prostitution


Well at least we agree on something!

i too think that it should be decriminalized because in it's present condition, it only lends itself to the abuse of prostitutes by pimps , corrupt police , clients and the rest of society.

Decriminalization would simply make it safer for everyone involved, and ensure that those involved in sex trade at least make a decent living.

Pimping , which is just another form of human trafficking should be criminalized with severe penalties.

Concerning the damage, many , many people are psychologically or emotionally damaged. Prostitution doesn't necessarily make it better or worse. Just like any other sexual activity.


----------



## always_alone

MissFroggie said:


> I do think it is immoral because so many people involved in it are desperate to get out and hurting. I still think it would be better if it were decriminalised, especially for the prostitute as it would make it easier for them to get the help they need to get out of it if they want to.


True. It is a very seedy and dangerous industry, and I didn't mean to downplay this side of it. And there is other sorts of immorality involved as well, particularly if the john is cheating on a partner.

Still, I don't think ONS or paid sex is necessarily immoral, but both say something about the participants.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> So, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly:
> 
> You're saying that a man who is so wound up in his business, he has no time for interpersonal relationships, and no woman would have him because he doesn't have sufficient time to pay her any attention, is neither self-important nor lonely?
> 
> He'd prefer escorts, but it isn't because they come and go as he dictates, and always tell him what he wants to hear?
> 
> And this is emotionally healthy to your mind?


And you're assuming that the average person you might bump into walking down the street , or driving the car next to yours on the freeway , or seated next to you on the subway is guaranteed to be emotionally healthy?:scratchhead:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Because I definitely don't think so!
.
But there's a name for what you're doing.
.
It's called an " _Illusory correlation.._."


----------



## tacoma

temperance said:


> But, the truth is, *I know most, if not all,* men order hookers, including my dad, my brother, my guy pals, just like watching porn.


This is false,
If it were true we'd have a serious hooker shortage and demand would drive prices very high.
Far as I know I can still get oral for $20 down on the strip if I were so inclined.



> So... do you guys agree, are you looking for emotionally connection? What does it mean for men to have emotional connection, if it is something money can buy? Why do men want from hookers (other than sex obviously)?


I don't buy this either.
Men who use hookers are looking for convenience or sex or just convenient sex.

I guess there is probably a sub-set of guys very unlucky with women who think they can go this route for emotional fulfillment but that kind of thinking is probably why they're unlucky with women to begin with.

If I were to divorce my wife I would consider using prostitutes (The legalities would probably keep me from doing it).

Simply because it would be easier to keep my daughter away from the drama of my dating life if I just didn't date.

In my case convenience would be the motivating factor.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Machiavelli said:


> Promiscuity remains in a bad light, except for some wittol freaks. Women with a long body count are a bad risk for marriage in a monogamous society.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is this true of high earning women, but also of women with no chance to support themselves. Women are great beneficiaries of government largesse for single mothers. It's no accident that as women's political power has increased, they have worked to have government replace the sexually marginal beta-providers they would have had to rely on in the past. Thanks to higher paying jobs or welfare, they are now free to ride the cøck carousel and collect baby daddies and the child support they bring with them.
> 
> 
> 
> So long as the present societal structure endures, there is absolutely no reason for any Anglo-sphere man to marry, with a couple of exceptions. They are men who want to be in control of the upbringing of their children and/or men who have religious objections to sex outside of marriage. Outside of those considerations, there is no upside, only downside. Thus saith Elvis, "Why buy the cow, when you can get milk through the fence."
> 
> 
> 
> No. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes sex is just sex. When we're talking about Olde English bags sending a couple thousand pounds a year to a 25 year old "lover" in the Caribbean to "help out" it's a means to an end.



I don't know how I missed this until now. Thank you, Machiavelli. I really appreciate this post.


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> All what you are saying to me is really that lots of men are so emotionally detached, they aren't only oblivious to their surroundings, they don't even see what it is they are showing to others.


In other words - you know men better than they know themselves?


----------



## Cletus

I have never used a prostitute. I have absolutely considered it. 

Why would I do that? Because I am married to a woman who rates about a 9.5 on the sexually closed off scale. I don't want a divorce. I don't want a mistress. I don't want the hassle of finding another relationship.

What I want is my first BJ in 30 years. What I want is a woman who, if I suggest something in the bedroom, says "YOLO, why not?" instead of trying to understand why anyone on god's green earth would want to put his face into her crotch or have sex in something other than the missionary position. Those would be the reasons I would visit a prostitute, not some bloody psychological malfunction upon which a lucky grad student could write a dissertation.

There are many reasons I don't use prostitutes, including but no limited to disease, the abuse and degradation of the women, and the fact that I would know that the entire event was utterly and completely fake - but were I just a little less averse to those downsides or a little more desperate, who knows?


----------



## treyvion

Cletus said:


> I have never used a prostitute. I have absolutely considered it.
> 
> Why would I do that? Because I am married to a woman who rates about a 9.5 on the sexually closed off scale. I don't want a divorce. I don't want a mistress. I don't want the hassle of finding another relationship.
> 
> What I want is my first BJ in 30 years. What I want is a woman who, if I suggest something in the bedroom, says "YOLO, why not?" instead of trying to understand why anyone on god's green earth would want to put his face into her crotch or have sex in something other than the missionary position. Those would be the reasons I would visit a prostitute, not some bloody psychological malfunction upon which a lucky grad student could write a dissertation.
> 
> There are many reasons I don't use prostitutes, including but no limited to disease, the abuse and degradation of the women, and the fact that I would know that the entire event was utterly and completely fake - but were I just a little less averse to those downsides or a little more desperate, who knows?


It's not entirely fake. The person is not your woman. Some of them actually like sex and will make sure you feel good. Some of them enjoy being good at their craft. Of course mixed in there are others who will be so cold to you that you wish you never did it, because you feel so much worse after.

It's better to get your desires met from your spouse.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> What I want is my first BJ in 30 years. What I want is a woman who, if I suggest something in the bedroom, says "YOLO, why not?" instead of trying to understand why anyone on god's green earth would want to put his face into her crotch or have sex in something other than the missionary position. Those would be the reasons I would visit a prostitute, not some bloody psychological malfunction upon which a lucky grad student could write a dissertation.


And you don't think that being desperately unhappy with your sex life with your wife is an emotional problem?

I'm not trying to say that I know men better than they know themselves. I am trying to point out that men who use prostitutes are often very sad, very lonely, and trying to fill huge voids in their lives.

And everything I've heard here seems to confirm that -except men keep wanting to describe it as nothing but physical release/sensation. I find this baffling.


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> And you don't think that being desperately unhappy with your sex life with your wife is an emotional problem?


Not by my definition. She's not broken. I'm not broken. There's nothing pathological about our individual tastes, needs, or desires. 

The problem is a relational problem. What she lacks in the bedroom a prostitute is likely very, very good at providing.



> I'm not trying to say that I know men better than they know themselves. I am trying to point out that men who use prostitutes are often very sad, very lonely, and trying to fill huge voids in their lives.


Since I'm not very sad or very lonely, trying to fill a huge void is the only applicable label left.

Sounds like the same reason just about everyone gets married.




> And everything I've heard here seems to confirm that -except men keep wanting to describe it as nothing but physical release/sensation. I find this baffling.


That's just lack of imagination on your part. I have absolutely no difficulty believing that such men exist, even if I'm not one of them.


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> And you're assuming that the average person you might bump into walking down the street , or driving the car next to yours on the freeway , or seated next to you on the subway is guaranteed to be emotionally healthy?:scratchhead:
> "


Not at all. I think we live in an age of epic alienation and disconnection from each other --and that this partly explains why we increasingly need to hire companions and lovers, rather than having sincere emotional connections.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> That's just lack of imagination on your part. I have absolutely no difficulty believing that such men exist, even if I'm not one of them.


See, that's just it. I have no difficulty imagining such men either. I've met them. And I think they tend to be emotionally damaged --or have really quite despicable attitudes towards women.

OF course, both of these are considered quite acceptable traits for men these days. So maybe it is a failure of my imagination that I can't see it as this fantastic and glorious celebration of biology that it apparently is...


----------



## treyvion

always_alone said:


> And you don't think that being desperately unhappy with your sex life with your wife is an emotional problem?
> 
> I'm not trying to say that I know men better than they know themselves. I am trying to point out that men who use prostitutes are often very sad, very lonely, and trying to fill huge voids in their lives.
> 
> And everything I've heard here seems to confirm that -except men keep wanting to describe it as nothing but physical release/sensation. I find this baffling.


I knew alot of dudes who did it with strippers and prostitutes, just because, and it was "a cool thing to do". They also had regular sexual relations, but they were living a hectic non-stable existance, so they don't really care.

So there are different types.


----------



## treyvion

always_alone said:


> See, that's just it. I have no difficulty imagining such men either. I've met them. And I think they tend to be emotionally damaged --or have really quite despicable attitudes towards women.
> 
> OF course, both of these are considered quite acceptable traits for men these days. So maybe it is a failure of my imagination that I can't see it as this fantastic and glorious celebration of biology that it apparently is...


What do you think about swingers sex? To them it's just sex and nothing to do with love. I didn't see it's right or wrong.

But some people enjoy sex. Some will pay for it and the different options. And like we said, the have it your way, or the variety, or whatever.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Forgiveness and Acceptance


Sometimes, I think I need a dose of this. Okay, many times.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Not at all. I think we live in an age of epic alienation and disconnection from each other --and that this partly explains why we increasingly need to hire companions and lovers, rather than having sincere emotional connections.


I can't argue against this , because it's very factual.

I would even go on to say that today, just like in ancient history, prostitution thrives , and have always thrived in areas where there are large population centres with lots of economic/ commercial activity , migrant labour , military activity or generally speaking , in areas where people are alienated and disconnected from each other.

Prostitution and socioeconomic growth go hand in hand. The more money circulates in a community , the greater chance of prostitution existing and thriving in that community.

Even before the money construct , prostitution existed and was used as currency to secure favour.
As long as there are haves and have not's , prostitution will exist.

Therein lies the correlation.


----------



## Quant

I've never been with a prostitute but I just don't see it as a big deal. Maybe its because I was born in Russia?


----------



## Cletus

Quant said:


> I've never been with a prostitute but I just don't see it as a big deal. Maybe its because I was born in Russia?


The you have met my sister, no? Best prostitute in all of Kazakhstan.

Nice, very nice.


----------



## Quant

Cletus said:


> The you have met my sister, no? Best prostitute in all of Kazakhstan.
> 
> Nice, very nice.


Ah Kazakhstan, the Alabama of the former Soviet Union.


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Huh??? Not seeing the connection between this playboy and the sugar mammas.
> 
> Except that I'm skeptical that "lurv" had anything to do with any of it either way.
> 
> It's all about sex and money, and the power to have it all your way, no muss, no fuss.


It was lurv for the heiresses, tool for the actresses.


----------



## Machiavelli

Sandfly said:


> I feel that goats make a good curry, Very tasty. Boys could be useful as child-soldiers.
> 
> No attraction I'm afraid. Is this a requirement?


Yes. Yes, it is.


----------



## Machiavelli

Sandfly said:


> I feel that goats make a good curry, Very tasty. Boys could be useful as child-soldiers.
> 
> No attraction I'm afraid. Is this a requirement?


To be a Talib? Yes. Yes, it is.


----------



## Machiavelli

looking for clarity said:


> I discovered my husband was visiting prostitutes and escorts. He's a good looking successful man and I hardly ever turn him down for sex. He did this while I was pregnant and breast feeding and he had unprotected sex with me. Even though I have evidence, he won't admit he met with them. So, I don't know why.
> 
> It is the most horrifying feeling to know you could be exposed to a fatal disease without your knowledge. I am going to divorce him and so he is losing his family over this. And I don't know why he was willing to risk us to do this.


He was willing to do it because his sexual gratification was more important to him than your life.


----------



## Machiavelli

ReformedHubby said:


> Very true. Many are married with children and* have what most would consider a very normal life outside of their work.*


Just with lots of added drugs, usually.


----------



## Shoto1984

Sorry if this has been mentioned previously but... A few yrs back a former girlfriend/wife of Billy Idol published a tell all about her life with Mr Idol. In an interview she was asked "why a man who could have women easily pay prostitutes for sex" Her answer was "No no no....men like that don't pay the girls for sex....they pay the girls to go away..." I enjoyed the answer.


----------



## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> To be a Talib? Yes. Yes, it is.


Hmmmm... So, covering women in blankets won't work? Shucks.

With an extra couple of decades under your belt, have you ideas on what might make a positive difference to Anglo-world marriages from a _collective _perspective?


----------



## Machiavelli

Sandfly said:


> Hmmmm... So, covering women in blankets won't work? Shucks.
> 
> With an extra couple of decades under your belt, have you ideas on what might make a positive difference to Anglo-world marriages from a _collective _perspective?


Society and prosperity benefit from legal monogamy. Lower ranked men who normally would not have been able to attract a wife (it's estimated that under polygynous ancient societies only 30% of men were able to pass on their genes) under polygyny, married and the men worked hard to provide for their wives, thus adding to society, instead of running around the countryside conducting raids and kidnapping the harems from other tribes. This is what allowed complex civilizations to flourish.

Unfortunately, monogamy is opposed by the natural hypergamous impulse. Since the beta-provider male has been replaced by well paying jobs for the top half of women and government hand outs for the lower half of women, these men will have a harder time attracting a mate, and an even harder time keeping them from straying. Plus, if they fail to keep the woman interested, the men are going to get screwed in the courts. Society has disincentivized marriage.

Currently marriage is falling drastically from favor in the lower orders, but not so in the higher earning segments. More than ever before in history, a married couple indicates higher status. This trend will continue. In the USA, in 1965 3% of white births were illegitimate, in 2012 that was up to 29%. And we all have a pretty good idea how that works out for later success in life, even if the government is mailing a check to the trailer house every mont.

I don't think a fix is politically possible and religion can no longer uplift the lower orders, since Christianity is unfashionable in the West. What will happen is that prosperous married people will have kids who marry other children of prosperous marrieds, keeping the high IQs and earning power increasingly consolidated. Meanwhile the prols will continue to practice an unwedded polygyny where the prol players will score big with large soft harems. The hottest prol women will be picked up and elevated for the harems of the higher ranking men in the upscale world who can pull it off.

While all that is going on, lower ranked males will be much more laid back about education, working, or contributing to society. You don't need to bust your ass for 40-60 hours a week when it's just you. This is, of course, already happened and has been noted extensively in female written books and articles. Conservatives also tell men to "man up." Why should they?

As long as the state continues with these marriage disincentives the problem will continue. Can you imagine a reversal of these disincentives? I can't. 

You can't fool mother nature.


----------



## ca-nami

Machiavelli said:


> Just with lots of added drugs, usually.


What defines normal? I thought you said you were wise.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Machiavelli, I like how you think.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Unfortunately, monogamy is opposed by the natural hypergamous impulse. Since the beta-provider male has been replaced by well paying jobs for the top half of women and government hand outs for the lower half of women, these men will have a harder time attracting a mate, and an even harder time keeping them from straying. Plus, if they fail to keep the woman interested, the men are going to get screwed in the courts. Society has disincentivized marriage.


What a bunch of hateful, ill-considered nonsense that flies in the face of all sorts of evidence about success in marriage, achievements of off-spring, and attitudes and behaviours of varying social classes.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

There's plenty of room to argue against what he's saying AA, but "hateful"? Really?


----------



## ca-nami

I happen to support it, but am not certainly a sociopath. Nice to demonise those who think differently from you lol..


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie, is it wrong of a woman, of her own free will, to have sex with a man for money?

The vast majority of the social ills you point out, are the direct result of a black market. Quite similar to the social ills that come with the illicit drug trade.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> I have backed up my opinion with facts. You have not.
> 
> Douglas Adams — 'All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.'


You have plenty of facts. Unfortunately, you draw a faulty conclusion from those facts. Every "John", or even supporter of legalized prostitution, is not a sociopath.

For example, the rape of a prostitute doesn't make prostitution wrong. Your argument is rife with such faults. By analogy, using your logic, we can say that having one's purse snatched, makes carrying a purse wrong.


----------



## treyvion

MissFroggie said:


> I find it difficult to believe that someone would consider this their preferred choice of income had they not been damaged in some way or had they other viable alternatives. Many people who have been damaged in some way and are struggling with social and economic problems draw the line when it comes to this as a 'solution'.
> 
> I have no issue with people choosing promiscuous life-styles, however when it comes to the buying and selling of people it becomes exploitative, corrupt and easier to ignore the facts than to offer support and help to those involved.


They like the fast and easy money. And for some of them it's alot of money in a very short period of time. So it becomes an addiction.


----------



## Cletus

MissFroggie said:


> I find it difficult to believe that someone would consider this their preferred choice of income had they not been damaged in some way or had they other viable alternatives. Many people who have been damaged in some way and are struggling with social and economic problems draw the line when it comes to this as a 'solution'.
> 
> I have no issue with people choosing promiscuous life-styles, however when it comes to the buying and selling of people it becomes exploitative, corrupt and easier to ignore the facts than to offer support and help to those involved.


No fair defining away the question by saying , in effect, that anyone choosing prostitution cannot by definition be exercising free will.

Such people do in fact exist, so the question remains.


----------



## Cletus

treyvion said:


> They like the fast and easy money. And for some of them it's alot of money in a very short period of time. So it becomes an addiction.


Why do I get the impression that if I told you I like breakfast cereal every morning, you'd call me an addict?

This might be the most overused term on the forum.


----------



## treyvion

Cletus said:


> Why do I get the impression that if I told you I like breakfast cereal every morning, you'd call me an addict?
> 
> This might be the most overused term on the forum.


I was just saying that many of them would make the choice to do it given the other choices, because they could make more money faster.


----------



## Cletus

MissFroggie said:


> This may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority would not be doing it if they had that freedom of choice.
> 
> There are people who had sex with an adult while below the age of consent who do not feel abused or coerced by it. The fact that the majority of those under age who have sex with an adult have been coerced, abused or taken advantage of is what is held relevant when making and upholding laws to protect and forms the basis of what society deem acceptable. Someone prostituting themselves who wants no help changing their situation can turn away help and support in escaping that life-style, it does not follow that due to that tiny minority of cases we should ignore the plight of the majority.


Now don't go putting words into my mouth. It does not follow that legalizing prostitution is equivalent to ignoring the plight of the majority any more than legalizing driving ignores the plight of the 35,000 who die annually behind the wheel.

Human trafficking is a huge problem that should not be ignored, but it does not follow that every sexual transaction conducted for money as opposed to love is of this nature.


----------



## Cletus

treyvion said:


> I was just saying that many of them would make the choice to do it given the other choices, because they could make more money faster.


Agreed, but that's not addiction. That's optimization of near-term earning potential at the potential cost of other long term problems.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> Now don't go putting words into my mouth. It does not follow that legalizing prostitution is equivalent to ignoring the plight of the majority any more than legalizing driving ignores the plight of the 35,000 who die annually behind the wheel.


Ummm. Those who die behind the wheel are the minority. A small minority at that, despite the real dangers. Do you really think that if the majority of drivers were dying behind the wheel that driving would be the right and entitlement that it is?


----------



## sinnister

MissFroggie said:


> This may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority would not be doing it if they had that freedom of choice.
> 
> There are people who had sex with an adult while below the age of consent who do not feel abused or coerced by it. The fact that the majority of those under age who have sex with an adult have been coerced, abused or taken advantage of is what is held relevant when making and upholding laws to protect and forms the basis of what society deem acceptable. Someone prostituting themselves who wants no help changing their situation can turn away help and support in escaping that life-style, it does not follow that due to that tiny minority of cases we should ignore the plight of the majority.


I think you have to take a closer look at who is demanding the supply. That will give you your answers in terms of prostitution laws.

From what I understand, the majority of the demand is coming from wealthy more prominent sources. Ever check out online classifieds lately? That's where the majority of the business is being done. Not back alley corners. That is small time.

The demand is coming from those who have the big time money. And there is a vested interest by those in power to not create a climate to piss off those with big time money.

From my observation, the coercion that exists in that industry is a lot less than you realize.


----------



## Cletus

MissFroggie said:


> What words did I put in your mouth or do you not understand the expression and context that applies to that phrase?
> 
> I was also NOT referring to my opinion on legalisation or decriminalisation of prostitution, I was talking within the context of those using prostitution as it currently stands.


I don't have enough of a vested interest in this topic to carry on a long, tedious argument with someone over it. 

Carry on.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> I did not say that every "John", or even supporter of legalized prostitution, is a sociopath. *You have put words into my mouth which I did not say.*


Didn't you?



MissFroggie said:


> If this doesn't matter or means nothing to your conscience then there is more lacking than sex/companionship. If you can not see that prostitution is a form of trading PEOPLE then you are in denial and there is something emotionally and morally dead inside.


Does the above paragraph impuning one's lack of conscience, denial, and dead emotional and moral state, not define a sociopath?

So aren't you in fact declaring that prostitution supporters are sociopaths?



MissFroggie said:


> I also did not say that the rape of a prostitute makes prostitution wrong. That was part of the body of facts I listed and *again you have put words into my mouth that I did not say.*


I haven't put words in your mouth, I'm attempting to show you how your conclusion does not fit the facts you provided. You used a statistic on rapes of prostitutes to argue that we should be against prostitution. My analogy is exactly on target: A statistic on purse snatching crimes against those who carry purses being used to argue that women shouldn't be allowed to carry purses.



MissFroggie said:


> Rather than your suggestion that it equates to purse snatching, I would say it relates more to a situation where people are being regularly attacked in a dark subway and society refuses to address the issue with adequate lighting, cctv or any other kind of security measures to prevent it.


Actually, that would equate to the regulation of prostitution, and I agree with that. Still, my choice to go down the dark subway doesn't make the subway wrong, or me wrong. The wrong is the attackers alone. The wrong is the rape.

Now, if you're arguing for greater protection of sex workers, awesome! But you know you're not. You're arguing against prostitution, period. How much "protection" does the law provide an illegal activity? Law enforcement isn't exactly high on the list of priorities here. How many hookers are even going to report a rape? Its like a crackhead reporting that someone stole his crack.



MissFroggie said:


> Prostitution goes a step further, when a prostitute is raped, even though there are laws that recognise this is wrong, prosecution is virtually nil. That would equate to having put those security measures into place in the subway but refusing to use the cctv etc to secure a prosecution in the event of a crime.


So get it out of the dark. Legalize it and give these women proper protection of law and regulation.

Prostitution itself isn't the problem.


----------



## treyvion

MissFroggie said:


> Would you advocate this as a way for your teenage daughter to pay her way through university or perhaps as a career choice? How would you feel if that was her only option to make money? Would you help her out financially or would you say, "Just go sell your body for a few months, quit moaning and stop sponging."


I didn't say it was a good choice. You damage yourself when you go into that career path and gain the level of compartamentalizion required. I wouldn't want my daughters doing it, I'd prefer they work hard and take a job making less money.



MissFroggie said:


> Here's a good way to start anyone off who is enthusiastic and excited about the golden opportunities the bright world of prostitution offers:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Help Wanted- Women and Girls Do YOU want this job?.pdf
> 
> Of course we'd like our wives, daughters, sisters etc doing this...it's a great job and like many in employment it's just for the money and not through sheer desperation and a complete lack of support and help.


They know what they are getting into if they make a choice to do it, and they get strong in doing it over time, taking pride in themself, building up that side of themselves. These aren't all shivering and cowering victims. It's wolves and sharks being shown a trade, and how to become bigger and bigger and stronger in it.


----------



## ReformedHubby

sinnister said:


> I think you have to take a closer look at who is demanding the supply. That will give you your answers in terms of prostitution laws.
> 
> From what I understand, the majority of the demand is coming from wealthy more prominent sources. Ever check out online classifieds lately? That's where the majority of the business is being done. Not back alley corners. That is small time.
> 
> The demand is coming from those who have the big time money. And there is a vested interest by those in power to not create a climate to piss off those with big time money.
> 
> From my observation, the coercion that exists in that industry is a lot less than you realize.


The industry has changed a lot. The seedy under current still exists but you are correct in that a lot of the girls have their own advertising websites and act as independent businesses. They even incorporate themselves and pay taxes. They also have websites that escorts can use to screen their customers so they don't end up alone with a psycho. 

I see that the thread has gone a long ways away from its intent. I kind of figured that would happen, but couldn't resist coming back!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> This may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority would not be doing it if they had that freedom of choice.
> 
> There are people who had sex with an adult while below the age of consent who do not feel abused or coerced by it. The fact that the majority of those under age who have sex with an adult have been coerced, abused or taken advantage of is what is held relevant when making and upholding laws to protect and forms the basis of what society deem acceptable. Someone prostituting themselves who wants no help changing their situation can turn away help and support in escaping that life-style, it does not follow that due to that tiny minority of cases we should ignore the plight of the majority.


This is actually a problem of applying your standards to someone else. To many people, its just sex. I've known a couple women who would gladly have been somewhat casual prostitutes. Not all prostitution is a career choice to go hang out on a corner or brothel. For some, they literally have a circle of male "friends", none of whom they're romantically or physically interested in... but they're nice friendly guys and the woman knows these men would love to have sex with her. I've even been propositioned by one particular cash strapped girl. Money for a bj. I turned it down. She was like, "Oh c'mon, you know I'm going to give you a bj anyway. So just give me money anyway! Mama needs a new pair of shoes!" Hard to describe... she wanted to be like a paid friend with benefits... in essence, a prostitute who only accepts payment from guys she likes a little.

It was a completely unserious thing to her. She would have happily enjoyed an NSA arrangement where I give her money for sex. We had an NSA thing as it was.

There are perfectly healthy men and women out there that have no problems with such an arrangement anymore than you might have with paying a masseuse.


----------



## ca-nami

MissFroggie said:


> I have backed up my opinion with facts. You have not.
> 
> Douglas Adams — 'All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.'


No, you clearly insinuated as such.


----------



## Sandfly

I'm going to stumble in, and say that I think that all copies of the film "pretty woman" should be burnt, and the actors crucified.

There's nothing glamorous about being a prostitute.

I guess you have to ask yourself: would I want to be one?

No amount of money could make you want to have sex on demand with Hillary Clinton or Angela Merkel. Am I right?

Because as a mangina, that's hypothetically who you'd be servicing, not Angelina Jolie.


----------



## always_alone

MissFroggie said:


> I absolutely agree that prostitution itself isn't the problem and I think that anyone funding it is part of the problem and funding the pain. I was also very clear that the things I said were my opinion and that they were my reasons why I wouldn't have a relationship with someone who thought it was okay.


Now, MissFroggie, you have to understand that in TAM land, women just love to be treated as objects and happily aspire to the glorious privilege of being treated as such. This is *perfectly* healthy, after all, what self-respecting woman wouldn't want some extra cash for something she normally gives away for free? 

And, of course, men who use prostitutes are merely exercising their biological imperative to stick it into whatever available orifice, and it is *perfectly* healthy for them to do so. You see, men are never lonely, or sad, or vulnerable. They never have a hard time finding connection or women because they are all amazingly wealthy (hence desirable) or good looking (or both) superstuds, with a bunch of perfectly healthy, gorgeously beautiful, self-empowered prostitutes who are ready to fulfill their every wish.

Relationships, on the other hand? Those are for losers who want to wallow in the muck of other people's needs and don't realize that sex is just a transaction anyways.


----------



## Cletus

Sandfly said:


> I'm going to stumble in, and say that I think that all copies of the film "pretty woman" should be burnt, and the actors crucified.
> 
> There's nothing glamorous about being a prostitute.
> 
> I guess you have to ask yourself: would I want to be one?
> 
> *No amount of money* could make you want to have sex on demand with Hillary Clinton or Angela Merkel. Am I right?
> 
> Because as a mangina, that's hypothetically who you'd be servicing, not Angelina Jolie.


Careful with the absolutes there. I can envision an amount of money that would make the task MUCH less disagreeable.

At least Merkel hasn't had a double mastectomy. Am I right?


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> Now, MissFroggie, you have to understand that in TAM land, women just love to be treated as objects and happily aspire to the glorious privilege of being treated as such. This is *perfectly* healthy, after all, what self-respecting woman wouldn't want some extra cash for something she normally gives away for free?
> 
> And, of course, men who use prostitutes are merely exercising their biological imperative to stick it into whatever available orifice, and it is *perfectly* healthy for them to do so. You see, men are never lonely, or sad, or vulnerable. They never have a hard time finding connection or women because they are all amazingly wealthy (hence desirable) or good looking (or both) superstuds, with a bunch of perfectly healthy, gorgeously beautiful, self-empowered prostitutes who are ready to fulfill their every wish.
> 
> Relationships, on the other hand? Those are for losers who want to wallow in the muck of other people's needs and don't realize that sex is just a transaction anyways.


Seems that extra dose of bitter on the oatmeal with a side of haughty arrogance isn't sitting so well this morning. 

Time for a cleansing purge.


----------



## Sandfly

Cletus said:


> Careful with the absolutes there. I can envision an amount of money that would make the task MUCH less disagreeable.
> 
> At least Merkel hasn't had a double mastectomy. Am I right?


Name your price, cleets, and be serious. How much money would it take for you to get a rock-solid boner 5 night a week, delivering multiple orgasms, for a month for Merkel.

Because Gigolos are not usually hired for 'one-offs'.

I just couldn't do this!


----------



## Cletus

Sandfly said:


> Name your price, cleets, and be serious. How much money would it take for you to get a rock-solid boner 5 night a week, delivering multiple orgasms, for a month for Merkel.
> 
> Because Gigolos are not usually hired for 'one-offs'.
> 
> I just couldn't do this!


A month of Merkel for the ability to quit working, travel the world in comfort (luxury not needed), pursue my hobbies with reckless abandon, and live out my days in comfort? I'd take that bet, to whatever amount is required. The likelihood of such an event being unlikely beyond the pale, I've never computed the dollar equivalent. 

Whatever the number, add enough for a 24/7 Viagra drip, and away we go. Who knows, maybe she's a complete freak behind closed doors.


----------



## Sandfly

Cletus said:


> A month of Merkel for the ability to quit working, travel the world in comfort (luxury not needed), pursue my hobbies with reckless abandon, and live out my days in comfort? I'd take that bet, to whatever amount is required. The likelihood of such an event being unlikely beyond the pale, I've never computed the dollar equivalent.
> 
> Whatever the number, add enough for a 24/7 Viagra drip, and away we go. Who knows, maybe she's a complete freak behind closed doors.


Ha ha!

Name the dollars, dude, don't be coy! I have to see whether you'd work for the amount you'd ACTUALLY get for this service.

I'll tell you the wage for a super-hot stud once you tell me your price.


----------



## Cletus

Sandfly said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> Name the dollars, dude, don't be coy! I have to see whether you'd work for the amount you'd ACTUALLY get for this service.
> 
> I'll tell you the wage for a super-hot stud once you tell me your price.


Ah, but you didn't say limited to the wage set by the gigolo standards and practices board. You said no amount of money.

I'd dig ditches for enough compensation. Doesn't mean any one is obligated to take me seriously.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

missfroggie said:


> Didn't you?
> 
> No I didn't - I said, "IMO, for anyone faced with the facts to still insist that prostitution hurts no-one there has to be something lacking within them. Be it intelligence, empathy or some other quality considered normal and essential within a civilised society." This does include someone who would be defined as a sociopath, but does not disclude people lacking intelligence or choosing to ignore the facts or colour it a different way to enable them to justify their part in that cycle. I did not say that anyone who uses/agrees with the use of prostitutes is a sociopath.
> 
> Does the above paragraph impuning one's lack of conscience, denial, and dead emotional and moral state, not define a sociopath?If on reading and accepting the facts then perhaps, I did not however say that all people using prostitutes are sociopaths - I believe most are not sociopaths but use euphemisms and are selective with what they choose to hear and believe regardless of the facts...this is not the same as being a sociopath.
> 
> So aren't you in fact declaring that prostitution supporters are sociopaths?
> 
> No. They may not be aware of the abuse within prostitution or they may not accept the facts as facts and convince themselves prostitutes are having a grand old time enjoying extravagant, non-taxed income.


So, those of us who are aware of the struggles faced by prostitutes (ie everyone? lol) and still support legal prostitution are sociopaths then? Is that different from my original question? All you really changed is awareness of other crimes. Or do you really think that the problem is that nobody knows that all sorts of crime befalls those engaged in illicit trade? People know this. If a person is seeking an illegal prostitute... don't you imagine that person believes prostitution should be legal? And being legal and regulated, isn't it reasonable to think the vast majority of the problems/crimes associated with prostitution fall off dramatically... just as with alcohol prohibition? By citing all of those statistics in your case, you are implying that prostitution is responsible for all of those crimes. Rape... physical abuse, child abuse... all of these things exist independent of prostitution. Prostitution doesn't cause them. So they serve no value in your case against prostitution. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Also understand that I'm not cherry picking when I point out rape. The majority of your stats have the same problem. ie - prostitutes getting assaulted by their pimps... what have you. Being assaulted by pimps isn't an inherent property of prostitution. Again, the stats you cite are declaring that a bunch of other crimes, dictate why someone shouldn't support prostitution. That's why I said purse snatching wouldn't exist if we didn't support carrying purses. lol 

See, eventually prostitution conversations boil down to one thing inherent to prostitution and not tied to another crime: Whether a woman can be trusted to make decisions over her own body.

Is she an agent capable of deciding that she wants to have sex for money, or is anyone who makes that decision not capable of doing so because you disagree with it. That's the crux of the prostitution issue.

If you're not competent to decide whether to have sex for money, what argument is there to say you're competent to decide whether to have an abortion or not? Or have cosmetic surgery? What does it take for women to actually have complete rights over their own bodies? Ultimately, for me, this is what prostitution is about and why I think it should be legal even though I have no desire for a prostitute.

All those crime statistics are entirely irrelevant.


----------



## Sandfly

Cletus said:


> Ah, but you didn't say limited to the wage set by the gigolo standards and practices board. You said no amount of money.
> 
> I'd dig ditches for enough compensation. Doesn't mean any one is obligated to take me seriously.


OK, OK. There is a 'going rate'. You won't get more than the going rate for a cultured stud.

Could you do a month of merkel munching for 40,000 dollars?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> I absolutely agree that prostitution itself isn't the problem and I think that anyone funding it is part of the problem and funding the pain.


Also, I would just like to point out that this sentence doesn't make sense to me.

Prostitution isn't the problem. Anyone funding prostitution is funding the pain. So all prostitution is necessarily a pain inflicted on a woman who was really incapable of decided whether to have sex for money?

See... I think most of the problems go away by making it legal. The remaining problems should be addressed with regulation. The few that will likely persist, are probably no worse than social ills that befall any number of "careers"... such as the likelihood of substance abuse among singers/actors.


----------



## married tech

> A month of Merkel for the ability to quit working, travel the world in comfort (luxury not needed), pursue my hobbies with reckless abandon, and live out my days in comfort? I'd take that bet, to whatever amount is required. The likelihood of such an event being unlikely beyond the pale, I've never computed the dollar equivalent.
> 
> Whatever the number, add enough for a 24/7 Viagra drip, and away we go. Who knows, maybe she's a complete freak behind closed doors.


I got to admit that for that cash I would seriously consider it. 

If nothing else I would tag team with Cletus and split the cash! 

Some liqueur, a few Viagra or similar plus a good open conversion about what she wants and what I expect hygiene wise followed by an agreed price and I'm good to go.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> Seems that extra dose of bitter on the oatmeal with a side of haughty arrogance isn't sitting so well this morning.
> 
> Time for a cleansing purge.


Oh, right. I forgot the part that any person who dares deviate from the received forum wisdom about what constitutes *perfectly healthy* sexual behaviour should immediately be called a whole series of unflattering names.


----------



## Cletus

Sandfly said:


> OK, OK. There is a 'going rate'. You won't get more than the going rate for a cultured stud.
> 
> Could you do a month of merkel munching for 40,000 dollars?


Probably not. I can make that in 3-4 months at my regular job. I would probably say yes for a year's salary - 1 month of munching followed by 11 months of gargling lye. You do the math.


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> Oh, right. I forgot the part that any person who dares deviate from the received forum wisdom about what constitutes *perfectly healthy* sexual behaviour should immediately be called a whole series of unflattering names.


I was happy to stick to the topic until your mini-meltdown that maligned everyone on the other side of the issue in TAM. 

Now? Not so much.


----------



## Sandfly

married tech said:


> I got to admit that for that cash I would seriously consider it.
> 
> If nothing else I would tag team with Cletus and split the cash!
> 
> Some liqueur, a few Viagra or similar plus a good open conversion about what she wants and what I expect hygiene wise followed by an agreed price and I'm good to go.


OK, well, just because I couldn't do it, doesn't men manginas don't exist 

That was the price for a cultured stud BTW - slightly above average looking confident men are half that.

Still, 20 grand/40 grand - OK if you can handle it right?


----------



## Cletus

married tech said:


> I got to admit that for that cash I would seriously consider it.
> 
> If nothing else I would tag team with Cletus and split the cash!
> 
> Some liqueur, a few Viagra or similar plus a good open conversion about what she wants and what I expect hygiene wise followed by an agreed price and I'm good to go.


Are you forgetting that those shoulders were once rubbed quite vigorously by G.W.? Don't forget to factor that into your quote.

Tag team - I like the imagery. About the time she smashes a folding chair over my back, I can crawl to the ropes and call in the cavalry.


----------



## Sandfly

Cletus said:


> Are you forgetting that those shoulders were once rubbed quite vigorously by G.W.? Don't forget to factor that into your quote.
> 
> Tag team - I like the imagery. About the time she smashes a folding chair over my back, I can crawl to the ropes and call in the cavalry.


What if she refuses to wash? What if her bodyguards are standing folded-armed at the exit?

OK, that's enough now 

All I really wanted to say is: 'is it really a great life to be a hooker'?

For forty thousand and Viagra on drip, I'd have a go. It would be a looooooooooooooong month though.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> I was happy to stick to the topic until your mini-meltdown that maligned everyone on the other side of the issue in TAM.
> 
> Now? Not so much.


Mini-meltdown? Hardly. It was just that everyone was so busy misrepresenting MissFroggie's point and attacking their straw men, I thought I'd return the favour.

If everyone is so aware of the problems and dangers and hurts that are a part of the prostitution industry, why the vigorous defence presenting it as empowered choices of perfectly healthy people?

The fact is, they just aren't. It's all fun and games to hypothesize how much you'd charge for your sexual services, but the choices facing real prostitutes both men and women are much more desperate.

You do realize, for example, that your client would much more likely be Larry Craig than Angela Merkel?


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> What a bunch of hateful, ill-considered nonsense that flies in the face of all sorts of evidence about success in marriage, achievements of off-spring, and attitudes and behaviours of varying social classes.


Care to add any facts to the emotionalism?


----------



## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> Care to add any facts to the emotionalism?


I don't think it was the content. Just that it concentrated only on women, scratch that, could be read that way.

I think modern man has big problems. He's not helping the situation by taking on kids that aren't his; 2. and he doesn't ask enough questions about 'how did you break up with your husband/father of your children' before getting involved...

only to discover that there's more to it than 'we just grew apart' or 'he dumped me'.

I could be wrong. Even though I agreed with you, it 'read' as a snobbish/'women can't ever help their biology'. 

Well, let's say women are total slaves to biology. How then do men, knowing this, ensure the best outcome for both sexes?

Am I talking nonsense?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> I didn't say I support legal prostitution, I said I support the decriminalisation of those selling sex. There is a big difference.


Please, by all means explain this big difference. So you think it should be legal to sell sex and illegal to buy it? Are you serious?



MissFroggie said:


> I also did not say that all users of prostitutes are sociopaths - I said they could have all kinds of issues, one I specified was a lack of intelligence.


Your own descriptions of a person who supports prostitution in spite of all your facts, describe a sociopath. The only "out" you've explicitly allowed for your sociopathic description is for someone ignorant of your facts.

MissFroggie, its all the same... you're just trading issues. You don't seemingly think an educated, rational, informed, moral person can support prostitution. To you, the supporters are sociopathic, ignorant, or unintelligent.

I believe a woman may do with her body as she pleases, and that such an industry should be carefully regulated as are other potentially dangerous occupations.

Is a woman within her right to control her own body, and sell sexual favors or not? Is a man within his right to pay for sexual favors she offers?



MissFroggie said:


> It seems you are either unable or unwilling to actually read my posts without misinterpretting what I have said or the context I have said it in. I will assume it is because you are unable to understand, because to say otherwise would imply a deliberate twisting and distorting of what I am saying.
> 
> Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


Little to nothing of what you've posted makes any sense to me. Prostitution is bad because women get raped? Its bad because pimps beat women? You rattled of a billion terrible things that happen to prostitutes, none of which is an inherent quality of prostitution but rather the environment in which illicit prostitution is conducted. I'm all for bringing it out of the dark and regulating it.

I guess I'm stupid. Oh wait! I support legal prostitution! I'm either sociopathic, ignorant or stupid... right? 

Does a woman have agency or not? Does the man? These people are incapable of deciding for themselves? You're capable of deciding for them? What right does anyone have to tell a woman she may not have sex for money?


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> How then do men, knowing this, ensure the best outcome for both sexes?


How would you answer this question, Sandfly?


----------



## Vega

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> See... I think most of the problems go away by making it legal.


Hmmm....

I wonder how many men would want to _marry_ a prostitute if prostitution was 'legal'? 

I wonder how many men would have NO PROBLEM with their _wife_ being a prostitute 'part time'...IF it was 'legal'?

Most men who I know of can't STAND the thought of another man TOUCHING his wife, let alone the visual of another man having sex with her. 

But if prostitution becomes legal, then why would there be an issue if a wife decides to become a prostitute? After all, if it becomes 'legal', then it's 'legal' for EVERYONE.

Seems to me that there are a whole bunch of OTHER problems that would need to be overcome that have little to do with 'legalities'...

Vega


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Plenty of hookers are married. There's someone for everyone, and every lifestyle. Even porn stars, who are also selling their sex, find husbands.

It is again an issue of applying your standards to someone else's lifestyle. It might not be even remotely popular, but it is out there, and there are couples who don't have issues with it. To them, its only sex. An ugly handshake. Its hard for some people to fathom, but for some people, that's what it is.


----------



## Sandfly

jld said:


> How would you answer this question, Sandfly?


I dunno! I'm only in my 30's. I haven't experienced any other 'culture' than the one we live in now.

My gut tells me that the problem is that once upon a time, both men and women were under an illusion about how men and women should be, and they both tried to live up to it. One tried to be a gentleman when he wasn't, the other tried to be an angel, and she wasn't.

Then the women realised - hey I'm not an angel, I'm a person. A person who wants money, sex, adulation, an easy life. But for the men, they carried on 'pretending'.

The trouble is, men - being slower to catch on - still think they must be gentlemen (underclass aside). So it's like... the jokes on them. They think a real man is a payer, a pleaser...

So, what I think needs to change, is men need to stop being 'easy' and 'helpful'. Sure, they should still help people, but they should have standards, namely: if I see no gratitude or respect, the help stops forthwith.

But I would like to know if I'm out on a limb in this thinking. For all I know it could be a skewed interpretation.


----------



## jld

Vega, don't you think there are men who would not care if their wife was a prostitute, if she were bringing in a lot of money?

Some people just seem very materialistic.


----------



## Vega

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Plenty of hookers are married. .


Define "plenty".

If the estimate of working prostitutes in the US is between 1-2 million, how many of them do you suppose are married? 

Considering the amount of jealousy exhibited by married men who cringe at the thought of another man TOUCHING his wife, I would think the figure would be very, very low.


----------



## jld

Sandfly, you have talked in other threads about wanting to see good manners in women. And you just mentioned gratitude and respect. How would you define gratitude and respect?

And this is the last exam question!


----------



## jld

Vega said:


> Define "plenty".
> 
> If the estimate of working prostitutes in the US is between 1-2 million, how many of them do you suppose are married?
> 
> Considering the amount of jealousy exhibited by married men who cringe at the thought of another man TOUCHING his wife, I would think the figure would be very, very low.


Do you think there might be class differences at play here, Vega? Or not at all?


----------



## Vega

jld said:


> Vega, don't you think there are men who would not care if their wife was a prostitute, if she were bringing in a lot of money?
> 
> Some people just seem very materialistic.


Of COURSE there are _SOME_ men who wouldn't care HOW his wife makes money! But I believe that MOST men WOULD care, and would have a HUGE issue with his own wife being a prostitute...whether BEFORE or AFTER marriage.

Maybe we should take a poll here on TAM...


----------



## Vega

jld said:


> Do you think there might be class differences at play here, Vega? Or not at all?


I'm not sure what you mean by "class differences", jld. Could you please elaborate a little more for me?


----------



## Sandfly

jld said:


> Sandfly, you have talked in other threads about wanting to see good manners in women. And you just mentioned gratitude and respect. How would you define gratitude and respect?
> 
> And this is the last exam question!


Good question.

It's not quite formulated in my mind yet. It's like... I'm thinking of a specific guy right now. His wife and I make jokes and laugh in front of him, about his job, the kind of sci-fi shows he watches, how he's got a bit of a beer-belly. etc. Nothing big. But while I'm just kidding, his fiancée - I watch her body language - she is part joking, part contempt. It's that sly 'look in her eye' that I notice. If I was him, it wouldn't happen... well, I say that, but who knows if one day I'll be struck blind to this sort of thing.

Anyway, what he should be doing is taking the p*ss out of her in return, giving as good as he gets, but he doesn't. He never criticizes or makes fun of her. Is he scared to lose her? He's too 'easy' is the only way I can express it.


----------



## jld

Vega said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "class differences", jld. Could you please elaborate a little more for me?


I am wondering if people with little money, maybe worried about economic survival, would be tempted to be involved in prostitution, or have their spouse involved in prositution, if it would bring in a lot of money. Or does this just seem completely improbable?

To go a little further, you've heard of middle class morality? Well, as I understand it, it takes a little money to turn down money. And so men who might see this the way you think, may not see it the way men with less earning potential see it.

Again, these are just questions. I am just trying to understand it, too.


----------



## Cletus

Vega said:


> Define "plenty".
> 
> If the estimate of working prostitutes in the US is between 1-2 million, how many of them do you suppose are married?
> 
> Considering the amount of jealousy exhibited by married men who cringe at the thought of another man TOUCHING his wife, I would think the figure would be very, very low.


I'll gladly concede all of your points, if I can ask a question:

What does this matter? Are women to only be allowed to have careers approved (TM) by potential husbands? How many women really want to be married to a McDonald's register employee? 

Wasn't long ago that a woman with just about ANY job outside of the home was not considered to be marrying material.


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> Good question.
> 
> It's not quite formulated in my mind yet. It's like... I'm thinking of a specific guy right now. His wife and I make jokes and laugh in front of him, about his job, the kind of sci-fi shows he watches, how he's got a bit of a beer-belly. etc. Nothing big. But while I'm just kidding, his fiancée - I watch her body language - she is part joking, part contempt. It's that sly 'look in her eye' that I notice. If I was him, it wouldn't happen... well, I say that, but who knows if one day I'll be struck blind to this sort of thing.
> 
> Anyway, what he should be doing is taking the p*ss out of her in return, giving as good as he gets, but he doesn't. He never criticizes or makes fun of her. Is he scared to lose her? He's too 'easy' is the only way I can express it.


I am sure it makes you lose respect and trust in her. And it sounds like you don't know why he takes it. You think he should have more self-respect, and maybe, more basically, more awareness of what she is doing.


----------



## married tech

> My gut tells me that the problem is that once upon a time, both men and women were under an illusion about how men and women should be, and they both tried to live up to it. One tried to be a gentleman when he wasn't, the other tried to be an angel, and she wasn't.
> 
> Then the women realised - hey I'm not an angel, I'm a person. A person who wants money, sex, adulation, an easy life. But for the men, they carried on 'pretending'.
> 
> The trouble is, men - being slower to catch on - still think they must be gentlemen (underclass aside). So it's like... the jokes on them. They think a real man is a payer, a pleaser...
> 
> So, what I think needs to change, is men need to stop being 'easy' and 'helpful'. Sure, they should still help people, but they should have standards, namely: if I see no gratitude or respect, the help stops forthwith.


Sort of yes however women are still pretending just as much hence the problem with their wanting equality but not wanting all the responsibilities and less favorable aspects that go with it. 

They want equal say and equal pay and equal rights to whatever but they don't want to do equal workload or the equal crap work and self control side. 

When you want to be equal to the man you are no longer the princess who gets rescued and carried way to live happily ever after at someone elses expense. You share equal responsibility for what has to be done even when it involves personal sacrifice and actual effort. 

Basically when you wanted to have equality to the knight that means you also have to shine your own armor feed your own horse clean up all the piles of crap that it leaves behind put up with all the politics and ritual of the knights job which includes a lot of spending your time doing the behind the scenes work that spoiled princess never have to do.


----------



## jld

married tech, I think the change in the economy had a lot to do with this, not just women wanting equality.


----------



## Sandfly

jld said:


> I am sure it makes you lose respect and trust in her. And it sounds like you don't know why he takes it. You think he should have more self-respect, and maybe, more basically, more awareness of what she is doing.


Yes, that's it exactly.

I don't trust her, but I also like her... because she's sly and what she says is funny.

I reckon he knows what she's doing and he wants her to stop it. But he won't do anything about it. That just makes it sadder.

I just don't get it, that's all.


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> I reckon he knows what she's doing and he wants her to stop it. But he won't do anything about it. That just makes it sadder.


I'm sure that's awkward for you.

Maybe you should send him to TAM!


----------



## Sandfly

jld said:


> I'm sure that's awkward for you.
> 
> Maybe you should send him to TAM!


No, I don't think 180's are the answer... 

You know how it is here (and I am jesting BTW: )

"We were at the beach the other day. My wife went off to get an icecream. She bought my son an icecream. She bought my daughter an icecream. She didn't buy me one."

Poster one: - do other women come on to you?
Poster two: - Don't worry about it mate.
Poster 3 : - Get rid of her. Do the 180. Here is the link...

I am totally kidding.


----------



## jld




----------



## married tech

Why men use hookers......

Because in the long run they are cheaper, do what you ask and you know exactly what it will cost you even if its not sex related and when you no longer need them around they understand the concept of shut up and go away. 

The rest is just moral semantics. :banhim: 

Do you know why fathers give their daughters away at their weddings? 

Because in the old days a guy had to give a large dowry to the prospective brides father in order to marry her. Unfortunately too many men found that what they traded for didn't live up to the price paid so they returned them wanting their stuff back. 

Thats why fathers give their daughters away now. By giving them aways the As is where is no returns rule keeps them from having to take them back..


----------



## Sandfly

Has it ever happened that a sex worker, or a women client of a gigolo, has got pregnant and tried to claim alimony?

Coz M-tech just said 'no consequences'. Has anyone enforced alimony on a child conceived through hookerism?


----------



## married tech

> Coz M-tech just said 'no consequences'.


No I didn't. 

Did I?


----------



## Sandfly

married tech said:


> No I didn't.
> 
> Did I?


Come to think of it, I don't know!

Whhooops!


----------



## Holland

married tech said:


> .......
> 
> They want equal say and equal pay and equal rights to whatever but they don't want to do equal workload or the equal crap work and self control side.
> 
> When you want to be equal to the man you are no longer the princess who gets rescued and carried way to live happily ever after at someone elses expense. You share equal responsibility for what has to be done even when it involves personal sacrifice and actual effort.
> 
> Basically when you wanted to have equality to the knight that means you also have to shine your own armor feed your own horse clean up all the piles of crap that it leaves behind put up with all the politics and ritual of the knights job which includes a lot of spending your time doing the behind the scenes work that spoiled princess never have to do.


Equality/equity is really a no brainer in this day. It is a simple concept that people of either gender should be getting equal pay for an equal job.
I have never met a woman that wants equality without wanting to work, it would be counter intuitive. The drive to strive is not gender specific. 

As for paying for sex, it is a job but I find the whole industry to be sad. I know men that have paid for sex and it is hollow and left them feeling empty even though they had sexual release. 

Men that pay for sex while in a relationship are revolting IMO. Men that are single and have to paid to have their needs met sound normal but a man that opts for paid sex long term because he cannot engage emotionally with a woman has issues.


----------



## Cletus

Holland said:


> Men that pay for sex while in a relationship are revolting IMO. Men that are single and have to paid to have their needs met sound normal but a man that opts for paid sex long term because he cannot engage emotionally with a woman has issues.


I say this with all sincerity, no tongue in cheek - 

I am in a long term marriage. For good sex, I would have to pay - half of everything I own. 

Does that make me revolting?


----------



## Holland

That is twisting what I said Cletus. I said that men that pay hookers while married.

But since you ask I would give up half of everything to have a fulfilling life and it is exactly what I did.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Me too.


----------



## ReformedHubby

MissFroggie said:


> This is an interesting previous post of yours. It explains a lot. Core values and long term insecurities are difficult to get over. That goes for everyone, I know my own core values and past very much influence my views too.
> 
> Since you have demanded statistics from me and I've supplied them, but when I've asked for stats for all these liberated women happily selling their bodies then going home to their husbands etc and you have come up with absolutely no stats....since you insist on twisting my words around to suit your own purpose or saying you don't understand etc etc...*I think I'll draw my own conclusion that you do not want to hear, you don't want to be open to the possibility that when you pay for sex she would rather be doing pretty much anything other than 'you' and may not even see the money you hand to her and finally that the reason you are this way comes from deep seated insecurities and ill-formed core values that "no sex meant nobody wanted me... and admitting the truth meant admitting that*".


I think you and AA are getting the reaction you are getting because you are trying to tell these posters whats going on in their heads. I don't pretend to know how a women would feel about paying a man for sex, but if one told me how she felt about it I'd believe her. Especially one who has actually paid for sex.

Regarding the whole hookers not wanting to be there or talking about customers behind their backs none of that matters to the customer as long as she is nice to him when they are together. They have no connection or even mutual acquaintances. Paying customers are often required to give the contact info of a girl they've seen as a reference to a new girl, so these men are well aware that they are being talked about and not always in a positive light.

I don't have stats for you Miss Froggie and I can't even really divulge how I know what I know, but believe it or not its not uncommon for client and hooker to sit together after a session and show pictures of each others children and talk about their significant others. 

You are right that there is a shady under current of the industry that does exist. The things that you talked about do happen, but there is another side of it as well.


----------



## Vega

jld said:


> I am wondering if people with little money, maybe worried about economic survival, would be tempted to be involved in prostitution, or have their spouse involved in prositution, if it would bring in a lot of money. Or does this just seem completely improbable?
> 
> To go a little further, you've heard of middle class morality? Well, as I understand it, it takes a little money to turn down money. And so men who might see this the way you think, may not see it the way men with less earning potential see it.
> 
> Again, these are just questions. I am just trying to understand it, too.


Oh, o.k. Got it now, thanks! 

I'm sure that people who have very little money--couples AND singles--would get involved with prostitution. It's a way of life for many young attractive women...and older attractive women...and older not-so-very-attractive women. A not-so-very-attractive woman may not make as much money as the young buxom college student, but she probably won't starve either. 

As for whether or not a married or otherwise 'attached' couple would do this, I'm sure it's happened. I just don't believe that it's happened nearly as often. Like I asked before, of the million or two prostitutes in the US alone, how many of them are married? My guess is, not too many, no matter HOW hard up for cash they are. 

Vega


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> Oh, o.k. Got it now, thanks!
> 
> I'm sure that people who have very little money--couples AND singles--would get involved with prostitution. It's a way of life for many young attractive women...and older attractive women...and older not-so-very-attractive women. A not-so-very-attractive woman may not make as much money as the young buxom college student, but she probably won't starve either.
> 
> As for whether or not a married or otherwise 'attached' couple would do this, I'm sure it's happened. I just don't believe that it's happened nearly as often. Like I asked before, of the million or two prostitutes in the US alone, how many of them are married? My guess is, not too many, no matter HOW hard up for cash they are.
> 
> Vega


Alot more than you think MAY be married or in a long term relationship, just for the security and permenant safety net such a relationship provides them.


----------



## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> Regarding the whole hookers not wanting to be there or talking about customers behind their backs none of that matters to the customer as long as she is nice to him when they are together. They have no connection or even mutual acquaintances. Paying customers are often required to give the contact info of a girl they've seen as a reference to a new girl, so these men are well aware that they are being talked about and not always in a positive light.


My point was not that clients should care what their service providers are saying about them, but that clients are often revealing an awful lot about themselves in their encounters.

So maybe his only conscious thoughts at the time are about sex, but she sees more of him, his fears, his needs, his weaknesses, his loneliness than you realize. 

And remember, it's the prostitutes themselves that say that much of their job does is counseling and social work. 

Are you trying to tell me they don't really know their own job?


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Care to add any facts to the emotionalism?


It wasn't emotionalism at all. Just an observation as to the utter lack of fact and reliance on stereotype in your own post.

1. Successful marriages are not the prerogative of wealthy people
2. High IQ and wealth do not share the correlations that you imagine
3. The whole beta male theory is incoherent, first you have them raiding harems, then incapable of doing anything at all --and somehow make it sound like it's all women's fault that this is so 
4.Your insinuation about single mothers are false, as are your claims about their offspring
5. Polygyny is not an accurate label, and you are implying a whole host of sexual behaviours for which there is no evidence.

I'm sure there's more..


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> It wasn't emotionalism at all. Just an observation as to the utter lack of fact and reliance on stereotype in your own post.
> 
> 1. Successful marriages are not the prerogative of wealthy people


Well, the facts say that marriage has already become a trait of the wealthier third of society and this is a long term trend, with the lower orders largely abandoning marriage. There are books out on what this all means and it's not a state secret.



always_alone said:


> 2. High IQ and wealth do not share the correlations that you imagine


LOL. 



always_alone said:


> 3. The whole beta male theory is incoherent, first you have them raiding harems, then incapable of doing anything at all --and somehow make it sound like it's all women's fault that this is so


Beta males are perfectly capable of executing ambushes, raids, reckons and they participate in any military organization you wish to name. They are not necessarily women's first choices for sex partners, though, and that's what an alpha is in the context of the battle of the sexes. I knew a US Army Ranger who couldn't get laid for over a year. You are highly confused about what an alpha and a beta are. Even beta chimpanzees patrol and raid other troops.



always_alone said:


> 4.Your insinuation about single mothers are false, as are your claims about their offspring


Sorry, but unwed mothers really do have baby daddies.



always_alone said:


> 5. Polygyny is not an accurate label, and you are implying a whole host of sexual behaviours for which there is no evidence.


One man copulating with many women is polygyny, informal or formal.



always_alone said:


> I'm sure there's more..


I'm still waiting for one.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> I'm still waiting for one.


Well, I'm not seeing much in the way of facts from you either.

What stats show that marriage is for the wealthy?

And yes, babies have daddies, or at least sperm donors, but that says nothing about the quality of their lives or their outcomes. Single-parent families do tend to be poorer because there is only one income, but all of your other insinuation are just stereotypes that you hurl around and expect everyone to accept.

And polyandry means one woman sleeping with more than one man. What's your point? Oh, right, you have more ridiculous insinuations based on the pseudo-science of maladjusted teenagers to throw around.


----------



## treyvion

always_alone said:


> My point was not that clients should care what their service providers are saying about them, but that clients are often revealing an awful lot about themselves in their encounters.
> 
> So maybe his only conscious thoughts at the time are about sex, but she sees more of him, his fears, his needs, his weaknesses, his loneliness than you realize.
> 
> And remember, it's the prostitutes themselves that say that much of their job does is counseling and social work.
> 
> Are you trying to tell me they don't really know their own job?


I've been in the strip club for 20 years. So... One of the things that was common is these are double and triple life livers... So they are sneaky, snakey and desceptive. They say and do what you want to hear.

So, after a nice guy ordered one lady a round of drinks at the bar... As soon as his back was turned, and she went to her group, she was totally KILLING him and downtalking him. 

And the guy didn't do anything but be nice. It was more common than not.

The psychology to perform in that lifestyle is intense. You know they compartamentalize super hard. And there is a ton of psycho and drama in that world.


----------



## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> My point was not that clients should care what their service providers are saying about them, but that clients are often revealing an awful lot about themselves in their encounters.
> 
> So maybe his only conscious thoughts at the time are about sex, but she sees more of him, his fears, his needs, his weaknesses, his loneliness than you realize.
> 
> And remember, it's the prostitutes themselves that say that much of their job does is counseling and social work.
> 
> Are you trying to tell me they don't really know their own job?


Well, I must say I agree. Johns do talk, and hookers are very empathic. Its what makes them good at what they do.


----------



## Cletus

Holland said:


> That is twisting what I said Cletus. I said that men that pay hookers while married.
> 
> But since you ask I would give up half of everything to have a fulfilling life and it is exactly what I did.


I won't try to stretch an analogy too far, but a lot of marriages go down like mine did - 

1. No sex before marriage
2. Buy a ring. Buy a marriage license. Part of the legalities of that license is an implied agreement to part with half of all shared assets if terminated.
3. Get married
4. Have sex (and lots of other wonderful and good things)

As the 80% breadwinner in the family, I very much "paid for sex". Of course that's not the only reason I got married, nor is it the only thing I have received in benefit from that marriage, but the effect is nonetheless a real part of the bargain. In exchange for my current and future income potential, I was awarded a loving wife, a caring home, and sole access to sex with my wife. According to Pew, one in three married people identify financial security as a primary reason for entering into the commitment in the first place. And if you think marriage isn't first and foremost a sexual contract, you haven't been reading the responses to anyone who admits to cheating hereon. 

Where do you think the saying "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" comes from? The Western ideal of marriage for love is a historically recent phenomenon, not universal, and one that hasn't necessarily even proven itself to be superior in outcomes yet. 

So I guess I just don't draw as hard a line between someone who is paying money directly for sex and someone who is mixing their assets with another in part for sex. Seems more like a difference in degree rather than kind.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Vega said:


> Define "plenty".
> 
> If the estimate of working prostitutes in the US is between 1-2 million, how many of them do you suppose are married?
> 
> Considering the amount of jealousy exhibited by married men who cringe at the thought of another man TOUCHING his wife, I would think the figure would be very, very low.


I have no data for prostitutes, but I doubt its different from the population at large. I know the marriage or cohabitation rates for porn stars isn't different from the population at large, so why would it be for prostitutes? Both are having sex for money.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Vega said:


> Of COURSE there are _SOME_ men who wouldn't care HOW his wife makes money! But I believe that MOST men WOULD care, and would have a HUGE issue with his own wife being a prostitute...whether BEFORE or AFTER marriage.
> 
> Maybe we should take a poll here on TAM...


Most men would care. And most women wouldn't ever consider prostituting themselves. However, some wouldn't care. Both are quite clearly a minority.


----------



## ReformedHubby

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Most men would care. And most women wouldn't ever consider prostituting themselves. However, some wouldn't care. Both are quite clearly a minority.


There are certainly cases when strippers and hookers marry customers. I don't know if the motivation is love, financial, or does the guy think he is rescuing the girl. Who knows? But it does happen.

If you talk to a married escort that caters to high end clients they really do see it as a career, and they often balk at their husbands when asked to quit. They usually strike some sort of agreement to not do certain acts with customers.


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## Cletus

ReformedHubby said:


> There are certainly cases when strippers and hookers marry customers. I don't know if the motivation is love, financial, or does the guy think he is rescuing the girl. Who knows? But it does happen.
> 
> If you talk to a married escort that caters to high end clients they really do see it as a career, and they often balk at their husbands when asked to quit. They usually strike some sort of agreement to not do certain acts with customers.


I'm reminded of "The Sessions", the true story about a paralyzed man and his sex surrogate. She had sex for money, under a very different system than prostitution. She also had a loving husband, good family life, and children.


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## treyvion

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Most men would care. And most women wouldn't ever consider prostituting themselves. However, some wouldn't care. Both are quite clearly a minority.


It would definately be considered an "extreme lifestyle", but some people wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## ReformedHubby

Cletus said:


> I'm reminded of "The Sessions", the true story about a paralyzed man and his sex surrogate. She had sex for money, under a very different system than prostitution. She also had a loving husband, good family life, and children.


That was a great film. My wife and I really liked it.


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## treyvion

ReformedHubby said:


> That was a great film. My wife and I really liked it.


We probably should see the movie. I was wondering about the "sex surrogate system".


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## DvlsAdvc8

MissFroggie said:


> This is an interesting previous post of yours. It explains a lot. Core values and long term insecurities are difficult to get over. That goes for everyone, I know my own core values and past very much influence my views too.


Not sure what my teenage insecurities have to do with my support of legal prostitution on the grounds of individual right to ones own body. You can attack me all day long if that's your intention, but doing so only shows you have no counter to my individual rights argument.



MissFroggie said:


> Since you have demanded statistics from me and I've supplied them, but when I've asked for stats for all these liberated women happily selling their bodies then going home to their husbands etc and you have come up with absolutely no stats


What thread are you reading? I demanded no stats from you. My argument doesn't hinge on statistics, it hinges on the right to one's own body and self-determinism. What stats have you asked of me? lol Your stats don't even make YOUR argument... as you yourself all but admitted. For example, rape is wrong, and prostitution doesn't make someone rape. The two are not related, and rape is not an inherent property of prostitution. The rape of prostitutes is common BECAUSE it is illegal. I tried explaining this to you as the crackhead who has his crack stolen. Crime against those participating in criminal activity is rampant, period. This is because consequences of committing the crime are significantly less when the victim fears reporting it for revealing their own criminal activity.




MissFroggie said:


> ....since you insist on twisting my words around to suit your own purpose or saying you don't understand etc etc...I think I'll draw my own conclusion that you do not want to hear, you don't want to be open to the possibility that when you pay for sex she would rather be doing pretty much anything other than 'you' and may not even see the money you hand to her and finally that the reason you are this way comes from deep seated insecurities and ill-formed core values that "no sex meant nobody wanted me... and admitting the truth meant admitting that".


I haven't twisted ANYTHING you've said. If I'm misunderstanding you, then by all means clarify how I'm misunderstanding you.

How exactly does your ad hominem argument via my teenage insecurity get you any traction? As I've said in this thread, I wouldn't pay a woman for sex - period. Largely because having to pay for sex would be ego destroying to me. Those were my exact words in this thread.... my lack of interest in a prostitute might may very well be based in the validation I get from a willing sex partner, but isn't that exactly OPPOSITE the case you'd like to make for why I support legal prostitution? lol Let me say this again... I have no interest in prostitutes. Your argument against me personally is even worse than your argument against prostitution to be totally honest.

I believe that a woman who wants to perform sexual acts for money, and a man who wants to pay money for sexual acts, should be free to do so. I don't believe you or government has a right to tell them they can't. That *I* don't want a prostitute is entirely irrelevant.

So what right do you have to tell someone under what conditions they may or may not have sex? That's what you have to show to win this argument. Not that prostitution is less than a dream job, or some weird ad hominem that my support of individual rights is based on my teenage insecurity (thanks for the laugh though), or that there's a lot of crime around illicit prostitution. My argument is SOLEY based on a woman's right to have sex under whatever conditions she chooses. If she chooses to do so in exchange for money, that's HER RIGHT.


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## Cletus

MissFroggie said:


> This is an interesting previous post of yours. It explains a lot. Core values and long term insecurities are difficult to get over. That goes for everyone, I know my own core values and past very much influence my views too.


Am I reading this right? Do you really mean to imply that many/most/every one who believes prostitution ought to be legal is suffering from long term insecurities or a lack of core values? 

Please tell me that's not what you're trying to imply. and that you really didn't intend to be that dismissive and offensive to whom you were responding here.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Ironically, she's closer to explaining why I don't want a prostitute than why I think prostitution should be legal. Its kinda bizarre really.


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## treyvion

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Ironically, she's closer to explaining why I don't want a prostitute than why I think prostitution should be legal. Its kinda bizarre really.


Legality for something that's going to be underground if you don't do it kills all the illicit activity that occurs around it, and provide a "safe" environment for the workers.


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## LeaderInTraining

I'm another man who has never used a prostitute. Actually I've never had sex with anyone other than my wife. And we waited until marriage.

I did have a porn/masturbation addiction, though, for at least 2 years. It was all I thought about day or night, and it's what I spent all my free time on.

I would guess that men use hookers because they're looking for the nurture they didn't have from their mother. Not many would admit it, just like I didn't realize why I was addicted to porn. I thought my relationship with my mother was just fine.

If the father is absent in a family, even just emotionally absent, and the mother takes the dominant role, she is no longer able to provide nurture. She has to be both dad and mom. This leaves a mother void in her sons, and they will be constantly looking for another woman to bring them comfort. Some find it in girlfriends, others in hookers. Neither one really fills the mother void, so they go from one to the next, looking and looking.


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## treyvion

LeaderInTraining said:


> I'm another man who has never used a prostitute. Actually I've never had sex with anyone other than my wife. And we waited until marriage.
> 
> I did have a porn/masturbation addiction, though, for at least 2 years. It was all I thought about day or night, and it's what I spent all my free time on.
> 
> I would guess that men use hookers because they're looking for the nurture they didn't have from their mother. Not many would admit it, just like I didn't realize why I was addicted to porn. I thought my relationship with my mother was just fine.
> 
> If the father is absent in a family, even just emotionally absent, and the mother takes the dominant role, she is no longer able to provide nurture. She has to be both dad and mom. This leaves a mother void in her sons, and they will be constantly looking for another woman to bring them comfort. Some find it in girlfriends, others in hookers. Neither one really fills the mother void, so they go from one to the next, looking and looking.


A man should have a woman though. It's natural, we shouldn't fight this.

So a man leaves his parents and clings to his wife and she leaves her parents and cleaves to her husband.

Pop culture, societal norms, power groups, etc forcing us to distort some really basic things and make them literally impossible.


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## Caribbean Man

I remember many moons ago when I frequented the strip joints and such , I had a couple lady friends who were strippers and escorts.

These girls lived lavishly, they had money, because their rates were hot and they selected their clientele. 
I asked one of them , how was it that they were able to get businessmen and politicians to pay them so much money for sex , buy them expensive gifts and so on?
She told me she charged $1500.00 / night, and she usually just serviced one client / night. 
So then,what was the difference between her and the next escort girl who charged much less, and had to do three clients / night to make that amount?

She told me that there was no real difference , woman to woman. But because those men saw themselves above the rest of guys , the though that if they paid more they would get exclusive treatment. So basically she was selling her clients " the emperor's new clothes."

But what she told me after always stuck with me.
She told me; " _Every man pay for his vices , and vices are never free or they wouldn't be vices..._"


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## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Well, I'm not seeing much in the way of facts from you either.
> 
> What stats show that marriage is for the wealthy?


Like I said this is not a new trend and it has been heavily discussed for the last ten years, at least.

The National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, compiled by the Federal Gov is merely one such study. 

Here are some treatments in the popular press with links to source material. Happy reading:

Well off more likely to marry

Low income couples more likely to divorce

Low income couples less likely to marry

Of course the exception to the above is when the woman is the high earner in a successful couple, those tend to divorce.




always_alone said:


> And yes, babies have daddies, or at least sperm donors, but that says nothing about the quality of their lives or their outcomes. Single-parent families do tend to be poorer because there is only one income, but all of your other insinuation are just stereotypes that you hurl around and expect everyone to accept.


Male children of unwed mothers more likely to fail



always_alone said:


> And polyandry means one woman sleeping with more than one man. What's your point?


That there is absolutely no need for a man who is semi-sexually attractive to marry unless he wants legitimate children or has religious beliefs that preclude sex outside of marriage. It's a mans world out there, because women aren't holding back the goodies until marriage.



always_alone said:


> Oh, right, you have more ridiculous insinuations based on the pseudo-science of maladjusted teenagers to throw around.


Start reading the above articles and studies. I don't know any teenagers with Ph.D.s.


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## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> But what she told me after always stuck with me.
> She told me; " _Every man pay for his vices , and vices are never free or they wouldn't be vices..._"


And the screwing you're getting, isn't worth the screwing you're getting. 

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Some guys, that's the only screwing they are going to be getting.


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> *And the screwing you're getting, isn't worth the screwing you're getting. *


So then, it begs the question of who's really the " victim " in prostitution?


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## DvlsAdvc8

^ I want to like this line of discussion even though I don't know if I fully agree, just because its witty.


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## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> So then, it begs the question of who's really the " victim " in prostitution?


And then, as you so astutely pointed out, these guys continue to give gifts to these women when the transaction has already been covered in cash. I do not understand it. I knew quite a few musicians who had stripper girlfriends and some of these girls' customers would give them expensive gifts. I can only assume this was intended to be a prepayment. Knowing these girls, I also would not doubt they scored at some point. These girls were also "not hookers." 

Also, about married prostitutes, the infamous Earp brothers of law enforcement fame (Wyatt Earp, Tombstone) were notorious for pimping out their wives, so I guess it's okay if you're enough of a lowlife.


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> And then, as you so astutely pointed out, these guys continue to give gifts to these women when the transaction has already been covered in cash. I do not understand it. I knew quite a few musicians who had stripper girlfriends and some of these girls' customers would give them expensive gifts. I can only assume this was intended to be a prepayment. Knowing these girls, I also would not doubt they scored at some point. These girls were also "not hookers."
> 
> Also, about married prostitutes, the infamous Earp brothers of law enforcement fame (Wyatt Earp, Tombstone) were notorious for pimping out their wives, so I guess it's okay if you're enough of a lowlife.


It really comes down to how one views sex.
But I see a huge double standard by some who claim that lots of casual sex , ONS and so forth ,doesn't make someone good or bad , it could just mean that the person enjoys lots of sex.
But yet some of these same people tend to condemn prostitutes and prostitution.:scratchhead:
Sex has always involved some measure of exchange , and if a person freely exchanges sex for money I see no problem with it.

The only problem I have with prostitution is that it isn't organized or legal which leads to the exploitation of some of the sex workers.
Because of the internet, some sex workers now control their own finances , and no longer have to work for a pimp.

Pimping should be criminalized.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Caribbean Man said:


> Pimping should be criminalized.


The proper role of a pimp is the safety of the prostitute. Naturally, in illegal prostitution, there's a lot of leeway for abuse... but essentially her paying for physical protection from her clients.

But in legal prostitution, the pimp is really just the security guards there to ensure the safety of the women at a brothel - similarly paid from the revenue received from the clients.


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## Caribbean Man

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ^ I want to like this line of discussion even though I don't know if I fully agree, just because its witty.


Well there are no real victims _of_ prostitution itself.
They were both victims before the the money was exchanged.

That's why it's incorrect to argue that only X type of person would become a sex worker or only Y type of person would pay money for sex.
Human beings and society are way more complex than that.
Prostitution straddles almost every socioeconomic stratum in every society , even in theocratic societies where the penalty for prostitution is death .

In reality,both the prostitute and the client are victims of something called_ life._


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## ReformedHubby

I never told the whole story about the executive I used to travel with that would gift me escorts from time to time (okay, so it was more than once). Since we are talking about high roller prostitute customers I feel its applicable. For him money was no object. He once bought a ****tail waitress a 60k car so he could have his way with her. She just became one of "his team" as he called them. I never understood this because its not like he had to pay for it, plus he was married. He was just a guy that lived to excess in everything he did.


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## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> He was just a guy that lived to excess in everything he did.


And by the sounds of it a crystal clear example of *exactly* what I was talking about.


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## ReformedHubby

always_alone said:


> And by the sounds of it a crystal clear example of *exactly* what I was talking about.


I can see how you would see it that way. If it wasn't for his infidelity I really would have had no problem with his lifestyle. He certainly had his quirks, but to be honest without those quirks he probably wouldn't have achieved as much as he did in life. I guess it all depends on what your definition/criteria for damaged is. I wouldn't classify him as unhappy though.


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## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Here are some treatments in the popular press with links to source material. Happy reading:


Oooh, recommended Google searches. Let's see what's in there:

Single moms are better: Kids raised by single mothers are sturdier.

Low-Income Marriage: Study Says Low-Income People Have Traditional Marriage Views

Poor people value marriage as much as the middle class and rich, study shows / UCLA Newsroom




Machiavelli said:


> That there is absolutely no need for a man who is semi-sexually attractive to marry unless he wants legitimate children or has religious beliefs that preclude sex outside of marriage. It's a mans world out there, because women aren't holding back the goodies until marriage.


And yet they keep doing it in droves. A strong majority, in fact, that doesn't include cohabitating LTRs. Why do you suppose that is? 

Could it be that a relationship offers more than "goodies", (which, as we've thoroughly established in this thread, are available to anyone, no matter how good-looking or alpba, for a price)?


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## Cletus

always_alone said:


> And yet they keep doing it in droves. A strong majority, in fact, that doesn't include cohabitating LTRs. Why do you suppose that is?


They may still be doing it in droves, but the trend is down across all socioeconomic groups. The drop in married men from 1970 to the present is almost 4x as great among the poor than it is among the rich. 

Only one group has seen a rise in marriage rates over that timespan - the richest women. Every other group is down, some remarkably.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/marriage-is-for-rich-people/


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## always_alone

ReformedHubby said:


> I guess it all depends on what your definition/criteria for damaged is. I wouldn't classify him as unhappy though.


Well obviously I don't know the guy from Adam, and so can't really say for sure.

But I do know that in general it's the successful, flashy exec types that are usually the most far gone, but hide it the best.


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## Sandfly

Machiavelli said:


> That there is absolutely no need for a man who is semi-sexually attractive to marry unless he wants legitimate children or has religious beliefs that preclude sex outside of marriage. It's a mans world out there, because women aren't holding back the goodies until marriage.


Call me old fashioned, but marriage wouldn't be about guaranteeing sex - it sounds silly that this could be a motive.

It would be about getting a ring on the finger that says "this is mine, hands off". 

But... rings can be removed or explained away. 

So for the same reason, I would insist on the changing of the last name. 

And yet... this can be explained as 'I'm separated' so I'd probably insist on a tattoo as well, just to make sure. 

Though, even this could be kept covered.

So maybe I'd cut off the end of one of her small fingers. 

She'd find it much easier to explain why she's not interested in someone else's advances.

An adapted version of 'pinky swear'?


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## always_alone

Cletus said:


> They may still be doing it in droves, but the trend is down across all socioeconomic groups. The drop in married men from 1970 to the present is almost 4x as great among the poor than it is among the rich.
> 
> Only one group has seen a rise in marriage rates over that timespan - the richest women. Every other group is down, some remarkably.
> 
> http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/marriage-is-for-rich-people/


Ah, a real link. Thank you.

No doubt marriage is down across the boards. Both men and women are less enamored with it than in days past. But I think it's the ceremonies and pieces of paper they are forgoing, not necessarily the relationships themselves. Cohabitation is, for example, way more popular.

The income disparity in stats is, I have to admit, news to me. But I still doubt the explanations are even close to the picture Machiavelli painted.

But I think that's a topic for another thread --unless the real reason poorer women are divorcing is because their husbands visit prostitutes.


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## ca-nami

always_alone said:


> I didn't say it was immoral or pathological. Just a sign of how they view themselves and women.


You didn't? lulz.. the insinuation is clear. If people like sex, so what?


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