# Early signs of success



## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

When I posted this 2 weeks ago:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/209634-another-classic-ldw-hdh.html

I had no idea what was to come. Based partly from some responses in that thread, partly from reading other threads, over the past two weeks I've bought and read NMMNG and MMSLP. (You sure do love your acronyms here... )

Bottom line, I was a textbook Nice Guy (in NMMNG terms)/Beta (in MMSLP terms). I've started making changes. I've rediscovered my long-lost love for video games. I've started making decisions and being assertive:

Old me:
Her: Where do you want to go for dinner?
Me: I don't know, where do _you_ want to go?
---
Me: Bob from work is having a get-together on Sunday. What do you think?

New me:
Her: Where do you want to go for dinner?
Me: Let's go to that new steak house. I've been wanting to try it.
---
Me: We're going to Bob's house on Sunday for a get-together.
Her: Sound's great!

For those who haven't read MMSLP, the takeaway is basically, you don't get to "give up" once you're married. You want her to have sex with you, you've got to man up, be manly and desirable. I've been doing the complete wrong thing for years.

I bought some weights and have begun a workout routine. I'm not overweight, but I'm out of shape. I want to be the hottest guy at the pool. I want my wife to drool over me.

And ALREADY, we've had sex 5 out of the past 7 days. I call it a win. I feel great.

Thanks, everyone.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

calamityjim said:


> When I posted this 2 weeks ago:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/209634-another-classic-ldw-hdh.html
> 
> ...


How long did it take you to make that transition? You don't control you guys direction every single time do you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I absolutely hate it when my husband defers every stupid decision to me! I feel like I'm his mother instead of his wife!

Good job Jim!


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

treyvion said:


> How long did it take you to make that transition? You don't control you guys direction every single time do you?


I made the transition pretty much instantly. In all honesty, I had a bit of a mental breakdown when I self-identified with all the Nice Guy stuff. Had a big fight, got over it, had some great make-up sex and been riding pretty high ever since.

As far as me "controlling direction" I would prefer a different phrase. The problem that we've had during our entire relationship is that she's very passive and non-confrontational, and I was deferring most of the decisions to her. I'm fairly passive as well, but more in that I'm just pretty laid back. So when it came to decisions, such as where to eat, I could eat anywhere, so I left the decision to her. She was practically begging me to grow a pair and make a call, but I wasn't getting the signals for 13 years. We've had numerous fights over the years on the topic of her feeling like everything was her responsibility, and it was never really resolved.

Just to be clear, it's only been a short time. It hasn't come to a point where I have to stand firm in a decision that I've made. I say we're going to the steakhouse, and she says she wants Italian, I guess it will depend on my mood how I handle that. I'm also not naive enough to think that this 5x/week thing is permanent, that's why I called it "early signs"  But regardless, things are pretty great.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Not a huge fan of MMSLP, but NMMNG is fantastic. Do a self-check every now and then and don't be afraid to go back and re-read it. Old habits can be hard to break in the long run.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Not a huge fan of MMSLP, but NMMNG is fantastic. Do a self-check every now and then and don't be afraid to go back and re-read it. Old habits can be hard to break in the long run.


I'm the opposite. I liked MMSLP more. I liked that there was lots of real-world experience, that the author shared what worked for him, including silly little teases, "pick-up" lines, etc. NMMNG seemed to say "be an *******, it will make people like you." While I realize that I need to be more of an ass sometimes, I think some of the stuff in NMMNG was a little overboard.

What specifically did you not like about MMSLP? Like about NMMNG?

(For the sake of those who may be happening upon this post randomly, we're discussing the books _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ and _The Married Man Sex Life Primer_.)


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Not a huge fan of MMSLP, but NMMNG is fantastic. Do a self-check every now and then and don't be afraid to go back and re-read it. Old habits can be hard to break in the long run.


I think both are decent but totally on old habits.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

calamityjim said:


> I'm the opposite. I liked MMSLP more. I liked that there was lots of real-world experience, that the author shared what worked for him, including silly little teases, "pick-up" lines, etc. *NMMNG seemed to say "be an *******, it will make people like you."* While I realize that I need to be more of an ass sometimes, I think some of the stuff in NMMNG was a little overboard.
> 
> What specifically did you not like about MMSLP? Like about NMMNG?
> 
> (For the sake of those who may be happening upon this post randomly, we're discussing the books _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ and _The Married Man Sex Life Primer_.)



Interesting, that's not what I got from it at all. The value I got from NMMNG was more about a pattern of behavior I'd fallen in to with regards to suppressing what I actually wanted with the expectation that it would make my wife so happy that she'd give me what I wanted anyway. It's illogical and doesn't work, but a lot of men for some reason fall in to this line of thinking.

I think NMMNG and MMSLP operate on two different wavelengths. 

MMSLP is about "How do I get my wife to sleep with me?" For many men, it may be effective. For me, not so much. My wife really doesn't respond to that kind of stuff.

NMMNG is about "How do I fix what's fundamentally wrong with me, regardless of whether it causes my wife to sleep with me or not?" The end result of NMMNG may or may not include more sex. For me it helped me recognize what a douche I'd been acting like (covert contracts and such).


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

way to USE YOUR EROTIC POWER!!


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Also, when you guys have sex mix it up a little. Be in control. Don't ask her to do things, just do things. Like if you want doggy style just flip her over. 

And pound her hard and deep. Like it's the last time you will ever have sex with her. 

I'm 2 years into my MAP. And our sex life is now average 3-4x a week. And I get BJ's any time I want. She loves giving me them. The best part is in the past pre MMSLP, she would never let me finish in her mouth. Now she begs me to. 
Morning sex was a no-no back then, now she knows I love it and wakes me up to have sex. 

There's a book you should read called "sex God method". It's actually free on line. If you can't find it PM me and I'll direct you. 

Keep working out. Don't let up on your MAP. Be the leader in your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Interesting, that's not what I got from it at all. The value I got from NMMNG was more about a pattern of behavior I'd fallen in to with regards to suppressing what I actually wanted with the expectation that it would make my wife so happy that she'd give me what I wanted anyway. It's illogical and doesn't work, but a lot of men for some reason fall in to this line of thinking.
> 
> I think NMMNG and MMSLP operate on two different wavelengths.
> 
> ...


Completely agree Fozzy.

I think a lot of women here at TAM dislike MMSLP because it lacks authenticity. It's more like a players handbook, which I concede would be very useful in a few select situations. It can also give a Nice Guy some lines to use until he has fully embraced his authentic self and is able to put that self forward with confidence.

As a kinky chick, MMSLP is like a play book on subtle domination and that's why a lot of the things he suggests would work for me.

BUT, if your wife isn't kinky MMSLP should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Jim you describe your wife as passive which could also be interpreted as a closeted submissive. Just an FYI....


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Yes, most woman want to be subbmissive. It's at the core of their evolution. They may try and hide it but they can't change millions of years of evolution. 

My wife tries to be dominating in our marriage and puts on a good act. I just be more dominating. In bed, is where I take control. I call her my little sex slave and sometimes hold my hand over her mouth and the other slightly above her neck and goto town. She loves it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jerry123 said:


> Yes, most woman want to be subbmissive. It's at the core of their evolution. They may try and hide it but they can't change millions of years of evolution.
> 
> My wife tries to be dominating in our marriage and puts on a good act. I just be more dominating. In bed, is where I take control. I call her my little sex slave and sometimes hold my hand over her mouth and the other slightly above her neck and goto town. She loves it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No Jerry, most women do not want to be dominated. 

Most women do not want to be the mommy to their husbands.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Completely agree Fozzy.
> 
> I think a lot of women here at TAM dislike MMSLP because it lacks authenticity. It's more like a players handbook, which I concede would be very useful in a few select situations. It can also give a Nice Guy some lines to use until he has fully embraced his authentic self and is able to put that self forward with confidence.
> 
> ...


I plan to re-read NMMNG soon. With fewer system-shocking revelations, I may perceive it differently.

Thanks for the insight. But regardless of which "plan" I'm following, bottom line is be assertive, stop getting pushed around, say what you want/feel, and work on your appearance. I don't see any of those things going too negative.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

ahhhh, women and their inability to overcome the power of their limbic systems....



but seriously CJ, I'm happy you are getting laid more by showing more confidence

because confidence in both sexes is sexy


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> No Jerry, most women do not want to be dominated.
> 
> Most women do not want to be the mommy to their husbands.


???

Please explain your opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Women tend to have a stronger nurturing instinct than men.

Women tend to nurture those we love.

Nurturing those we love easily morphs into a sort of mothering over those we love. Pampering a husband with a cold, performing other care giving chores, like meal prep, laundry, shopping for household goods.... Everyone enjoys being nurtured and pampered, men included!

Over time, the wife who has been nurturing her rather passive husband tends to take over. It's not done on purpose. But because he has been passive and she is a nurturer, she continues to step up and step in and take over. She begins to feel like his Mommy rather than his wife because he really doesn't care where they eat, what color to paint the walls, where to go on vacation, which outfit she should wear... He is easy to please and really doesn't care too much about a lot things so he simply defers to her thoughts and opinions.

Conflicts come about and again he defers to her because he doesn't much like conflict either. Although he might not want to have his in laws over to watch the game it's easier to go along.

She's not a dummy and she knows he's not fully on board but since he isn't willing to speak up, she will do what she wants.

His passivity and conflict avoidance is a sexual turn off, so he's not getting laid too much any more. NOW he is paying attention! So he becomes even more agreeable. 

She has to interpret him in order to get his thoughts and opinions. She has to pull this info from him when she easily shares the same info with him.

Her instinct to nurture has made her feel like his mother. Instead of him saying No, don't want the in laws over I want to watch the game with my buddies, he goes along to get along thinking he's doing the right thing. But this has become his normal routine, to go along to get along. Like a child who doesn't really know what he wants or how to get what he wants or how to stand up for himself, she has to nurture his opinions and thoughts out of him.

A husband needs to act like a full partner in the marriage. When he sits back and let's his wife set the tone, make the decisions, bring up issues, decide on a course of action, he is not a partner but a subordinate.

She is his mommy and that is a huge sexual turn off!


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Ha, I totally agree!!

I meant the "most woman do not want to be dominated" line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jerry123 said:


> Ha, I totally agree!!
> 
> I meant the "most woman do not want to be dominated" line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess they'd prefer to dominate men.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jerry123 said:


> Ha, I totally agree!!
> 
> I meant the "most woman do not want to be dominated" line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Dammit! I knew whichever part I answered you'd come back and say it was the other part! Got me!



treyvion said:


> I guess they'd prefer to dominate men.


This is not an either or type sitch Trey. 

Most women like men to be adults and not act like another child she has to care for, make decisions for and or interpret.

If you go into a business partnership where you each have equal say, it would be silly for you both to weigh in on or duplicate one another's strengths. It would also be disastrous if one partner acted like a subordinate just because the other partner had strong opinions. Over the long run how do you think that would play out?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

treyvion said:


> I guess they'd prefer to dominate men.


Yup...Of course they do. 

Women don't want pu$$ies as husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Lila said:


> I disagree that *most* women want to be submissive. *Some* do, *some* don't, and * some* enjoy a balance of the two. Implying otherwise makes women sound very one dimensional, which from my experience, is far from the truth. Probably the main reason why MMSLP (and some other red pill theories) works for some men in certain relationships and fails with others.


I will wait to post a longer opinion to this tomorrow since my wife is taking a shower and was hinting at a sex filled night so I don't have time to write. 

I agree to a point, women don't want to be the submissive every second of their lives but it's in a woman's nature to be the first officer and husband to be the captain in 99% of situations. It can't work the other way. I've been there, and I can tell you first hand I would rather be single and lonely than be in that situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jerry123 said:


> I will wait to post a longer opinion to this tomorrow since my wife is taking a shower and was hinting at a sex filled night so I don't have time to write.
> 
> I agree to a point, women don't want to be the submissive every second of their lives but it's in a woman's nature to be the first officer and husband to be the captain in 99% of situations. It can't work the other way. I've been there, and I can tell you first hand I would rather be single and lonely than be in that situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jerry, you're wrong. It is NOT in a woman's nature to be subordinate to her spouse. It IS in a woman's nature to not want to mommy her spouse!

I do hope you come to understand the difference. I know in the beginning it's difficult for a lot of men to get the difference, particularly since so many men tend to hold onto that little boy for so very long. And I get how it is easier for a man to break down a complicated dynamic of an egalitarian relationship into simpler concepts such as "women like their man to be a man so that must mean that women want to be dominated." 

In time you will come to understand the difference.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

I think part of the problem is different people's perception of the word "submissive." 

Back when my wife and I were "churchy," the topic of submission came up. (We were probably only dating at the time.) "Wives submit to your husbands, for it is the way of the Lord" or however it's worded. She did not take kindly to the thought. "I am a modern woman! I hope you don't expect me to clean the whole house, change diapers, and cook while you sit on the sofa, drink beer, and watch football! oh HELL no."

I don't think her reaction was uncommon. That seems to be what most women think it means to be submissive. I seem to remember stumbling across some site ages ago that talked about marital spanking. Not in a sexual way, in a the-house-is-not-as-clean-as-i-would-like way. Freaking weird if you ask me.

But in reality--

I should stop and remind everyone that I've been practicing this stuff for like a week. I do not have all the answers. 

In reality, at least for me, it's just about being decisive. We spent so much time in the past flip-flopping about what to do, where to go, what to eat, etc. Now, I just make a decision and we go with it. If she objects to my decision, I don't say "screw you, you be submissive," I listen to her input like a good captain would. Maybe I like her idea better, maybe I realize her idea is more feasible, maybe she and the kids would prefer plan B while I miss out on plan A. We do plan B. My newfound decisiveness is not a ploy to get to do whatever I want all the time, it's just a way to man up.

Based on the fact that she was practically tearing my clothes off last night, I think it's working. :smthumbup:

(That's 6/8 now )


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I guess they'd prefer to dominate men.



I think it's not that women prefer _to dominate_ men; rather, they prefer dominant men. 

Not men who will dominate them--but men who can dominate their _own_ lives. You know, men who have their sh!t together.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jerry123 said:


> Also, when you guys have sex mix it up a little. Be in control. Don't ask her to do things, just do things. Like if you want doggy style just flip her over.
> 
> And pound her hard and deep. Like it's the last time you will ever have sex with her.


:iagree: :yay: :smthumbup: 

Definitely works for me!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> :iagree: with Anon on this. Submissive women respond very well to the MMSLP message.



I'll keep it in mind as I push my next wife around the hovel, barefoot and pregnant and all that 

If there are submissive people out there outside of a BDSM scene I'd like to meet them. In my circle of friends and acquaintances it's not common at all to find submissive people. 

The corporate and social ladders as you move up are not conducive to such behaviors.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Keep in mind that there is a difference between a woman who feels naturally submissive in a relationship, and a woman who is just attracted to very dominant men. 

Sometimes a woman with a dominant personality still prefers that her man out-dom her. 

It a matter of relative, not absolute, roles.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Let's not confuse being a dominant man submissive woman as where the man is abusive and berates/hits/verbally abuses the woman and she stays in the relashionship. 

A "real" dominant man captains the relashionship. Is confidant and can control his emotions. Figures things out for himself. Fixes things that needs to be fixed around the house without being told. Has a guy hobby and hangs out with his guy friends from time to time. 

A "real" submissive woman is nurturing and caring. Does not b!tch at her husband for every little thing. Does not use sex as a weapon. 

Funny thing is thinking of all the married couples off the top of my head, most of the wives are soft spoken, gentle and don't berate their husbands in front of me. 

A dominate wife and a submissive husband rarely works. 

In my situation years ago my wife used to berate me in front if people. Would always try and make decisions in our marriage. Used sex as a weapon. She would get pissed if I went out with friends. 

Total 180 now because of MMSLP. Read the book 2, maybe even 3 times. She never knew I read it. 
Now I have a hobbies I do with guys. Shooting range, poker night, golfing. I don't ask her when I do these things, I just tell her. Not in a mean/nasty way. In a confident way. 
Got back from 2 vaca's in the last month. Sex at least twice a day, she also drank a little more than usual and we tried a few new things. She asked me what was best part of the vaca's and I said all the sex and the new things we tried. 

Is not perfect, she still tries to push my buttons. But I've really learned to control my anger and OI. If you get angry and mad then lose control she wins. 

A few months ago one night she just would not stop b!tching. I grabbed my keys and left. She was not expecting that. My son kept calling me, did not know it was him until he left a message crying. My wife told me later she did not know if I was just going for a drive or going to meet another woman. After I explained to her it won't be tolerated by me the way she acted. For 3-4 days after she could not keep her hands off me or my clothes on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I absolutely hate it when my husband defers every stupid decision to me! I feel like I'm his mother instead of his wife!
> 
> Good job Jim!


:iagree:


"I don't know" and "I don't care" are some of the worst sentences on the earth!

Men! Just take charge and make some decisions, dang it!


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

jerry123 said:


> Now I have a hobbies I do with guys. Shooting range, poker night, golfing. I don't ask her when I do these things, I just tell her. Not in a mean/nasty way. In a confident way.


Help me out, Jerry, as this is something I'm still not clear on. My dominance is minor so far and only been family-oriented. Thing is, there seems to be a fine line between being assertive and being a diсk. For example, if we have plans to go to dinner as a family, and I say "screw your plans, I'm going to the range," that's a pretty clear-cut diсk move. On the other hand, if we don't have anything in particular going on and I do the same thing, that's being assertive and being your own man.

I guess my overall problem is that my wife makes too many damn plans. Maybe I have to be a diсk a few times and screw up some plans, we'll see.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

calamityjim said:


> Help me out, Jerry, as this is something I'm still not clear on. My dominance is minor so far and only been family-oriented. Thing is, there seems to be a fine line between being assertive and being a diсk. For example, if we have plans to go to dinner as a family, and I say "screw your plans, I'm going to the range," that's a pretty clear-cut diсk move. On the other hand, if we don't have anything in particular going on and I do the same thing, that's being assertive and being your own man.
> 
> I guess my overall problem is that my wife makes too many damn plans. Maybe I have to be a diсk a few times and screw up some plans, we'll see.



Oh your doing great...I can just feel the confidence in your posts as I read them. Your doing something right now that's triggering her wetness and attraction. Believe me buddy, it's not always going to be like this. It's baby steps so if I have one word of advice is to keep working out. I'm sure you can tell your confidence from getting laid like tile is high. 

As for being a dominant **** and to say screw your plans, I would never do that. I just say, oh sure hunny, let's go look at bed sheets on Saturday. Then Sunday say, I'm heading to the range to shoot for a few hours. How bout later we try out those bed sheets when the kids goto sleep. Wink, wink. 

Be a happy guy. Even if your not getting laid. 

My situation last week: We got a new headboard for our new king size bed. It took us 3-4 days to finally decide on one. I just told her I liked this one because the back is soft and pleaded and her head won't get hurt while its slamming on the back whille we screw. Guess which one we ended up with...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A marriage between two partners with similar income, education, and the like is not conducive to the type of availability and covert fear based techniques that may work in other more "unbalanced" traditional situations...

I'm still waiting for the popular American "Children Led Marriages" approach or as is more common in Asia, "In-law Led Marriages"


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> Men! Just take charge and make some decisions, dang it!


Totally agree... and like Jim said... just flip your woman over and TAKE her... POUND her... be an ALPHA male!

Slow love-making has its place, but sometimes a man just has to TAKE what is HIS! Of course, the reverse is true too... I've NEVER been shy about my needs...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> *I'm still waiting for the popular American "Children Led Marriages" approach *or as is more common in Asia, "In-law Led Marriages"


 John, you are such a card!


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