# The In-Laws and Enmeshment



## hawkeye11

Hello, everyone! I am new to this site and hope to get some good advice from other married individuals.
My topic, if detailed, would take about 20-30 pages, so I will be as brief as possible.
I am a 51 year old male. My wife and I have been married for almost 20 years. We have two sons, pre-teen years.

The problem: My wife invites her family everywhere we go...which has been going on since the birth of our sons. Whether it is theme parks, children's museum, water parks, sporting events, the zoo, children-oriented movies, restaurants, kids activities (football, soccer, basketball teams, etc). and the list goes on and on. I told her (after an 8-day trip to Disney) how I felt about this (around 10 years ago). This still occurred for years. Notwithstanding the babysitting and just regular weekend visits. In short, her parents and sister-in-law have been a suffocating tsunami wave, especially since our sons were born. This is done with the invitation, and blessing, of my wife.
Every child sporting event, they attend, and drive two hours round trip for the most basic things and can't miss a thing. In addition, my wife abandons me and immediately is with her mother as soon as she shows up. And, it is the same in all these activities. My wife is with her mother the entire time and has nothing to do with me the rest of the day.

All of her actions finally were put into words one day. My oldest son was about to celebrate a birthday, and wanted to go to Kennedy Space Center. Naturally, her parents and sister were invited as well. My wife sat me down and talked about the theme park plans concluding with...this is an exact quote ("I know that you want the four of us to do things alone together. But, I cannot not invite my family to the things we do, because what we do is so special."). I almost walked, but I didn't. I became so depressed and as usual, she was physically with her mother the entire time...while I carried the backpack of drinks and snacks. This was four years ago.
Later, that summer, I consulted a divorce lawyer. I found out some terrible financial things about getting a divorce, as well as the emotional trauma it would have on my sons...they are emotional boys. My wife and I have had a few discussions since, with her not budging an inch; and neither do I. And, I admit, I once yelled at her, "Who the **** are you married to!?" 
For years, I sought the advice of a therapist who stated my wife and her family have serious enmeshment issues. The last time we talked about this (my wife and I) was two years ago. Since then, not much has changed. Every single time my sons have a flag football game, soccer match, etc. these people bring their lawn/beach chairs, sit in a row together, and have a wonderful time!! This intrusion into our lives costs them nothing; but costs me everything.

I know now that my wife and I are not together until death do us part. I stay for the sake of peace and stability for my sons. There are so many more things I could mention, but there is not enough space. My wife's priorities are: her sons, her parents, her job, then maybe me (though she would never admit to this). I am admitting that I am buying time until a divorce would be more practical and the timing is better. I am not in love with her anymore and I believe, of course, the non-feeling is mutual. However, strange to say, we are both college-educated, responsible, are nice to one another, and do our best for our sons.

What do you think about this? What would you have done in my shoes? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## hubbyintrubby

I'd be beyond frustrated with that as well, and I'm relatively close with my family. 

You say she's not willing to budge an inch, but you're not also. Is there a reason that the two of you cannot come to some kind of middle ground here? 

As I imagine you know, marriage is about give and take and usually doesn't work out so well when it's all take and no give. It appears the problem is that she is willing to take and not give and in turn she is forcing you to give and nothing else.


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## SpinyNorman

The in-laws being part of the family is a good thing, but like most good things it can be carried so far as to be a bad thing. If once in a while they forget about you and get carried away w/ each other, well, they're only human.

But that doesn't sound like what you've got, it sounds like your wife thinks you're an unimportant part of the family. You should try to get her into MC so the 3rd party can get her to see this. Of course the goal is not to get your in-laws completely out of your life forever, it's to get everyone to give you your rightful place.

If she won't do this, she is telling you you don't matter to her, and that means she shouldn't matter to you. Do what's right for you. Educate yourself on divorce, don't trust everything one attorney says. And educate your sons how a healthy marriage works so they don't fall into the hole you did.

Good luck.


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## Tdbo

I'd say that you need to start taking control of your relationship. Mrs. Hawkeye has a 20 year head start.
You are never going to totally change the dynamic. However, there needs to be a happy medium.
Study up on the 180 and implement it. Take this time for clarity and formulate a plan.
Go out of your way to be father of the year for your kids.
Wife gets dry. ice.
When things reach their pinnacle with the Mrs., you lay out your plan.
Overbuild the plan, giving yourself the latitude to comprise, yet still get what you need.
Lay it out. Be prepared to walk.
See if she wants to break up her family.
She will be as disrespectful to you as you will let her.
Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose it if you want to save it.


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## WandaJ

You let her do it for 20 years, it will be hard to turn it around. She got used to making decisions by herself, without asking for your input, and frankly, without respecting your choice. She knows you'd prefer vacation with just your wife and kids, and choses to disregard it. 
I would go crazy if I'd have to ge everywhere with extended family, even my own. For me vacation is time to slow down and relax, and feel myself. 

But this is not just about vacation - it is about her not respecting what you want. Much bigger issue.

You really need to have a serious conversation about it. It will be shock for her - it worked just fine for her for 20 years, she will probably fight you during that converstaion. Give her time - if she comes around to seeing your point in few days, and is willing to work on it, that's a win. But there is also an option, she will not come around. Then it is your decision time.


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## notmyjamie

I'd be tempted to book a nice vacation with my kids but not my wife and tell her that you wanted some time alone with your immediate family. If she asks why she wasn't included be honest, she is part of that immediate family and not yours. 

But I agree with others that allowing her to make all the plans and include her family for 20 years has been too long and it's not going to be easy to change. Could you book something for your family and not tell her about it until it's too late for her to invite her family along? Or tell her that if she invites them you're cancelling the event altogether.

That's if you even care enough to bother trying to change things. It sounds like you're past that now.


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## NextTimeAround

Try booking vacation just with your sons.

Do you get along with your FIL?


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## jlg07

Yup. start doing things with just your sons, leave your wife out.
If she asks, tell her flat out because I want to enjoy my kids without your family being involved. Since you seem incapable of only the 4 of us doing things, I'm going to do it with just the boys.

You need to start standing up to this. For games, etc., NOT much you can do -- sit separate if you want, but I don't think that will bother her OR her family at all. They will just blame you.

Another option, when all the family is gathered ONCE again at an event,
CONFRONT them. Ask her Father/Mother WHY they have to be at EVERY event and if it fair that YOU do not get to spend alone time with YOUR family? Get mad, blow it up -- push back on THEM. Doubt it will work, but maybe it will.
If you are there at events and continue to make it uncomfortable for THEM to be there, maybe that would work (BUT it may blow up in your face also).


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## NextTimeAround

> Another option, when all the family is gathered ONCE again at an event,
> CONFRONT them. Ask her Father/Mother WHY they have to be at EVERY event and if it fair that YOU do not get to spend alone time with YOUR family? Get mad, blow it up -- push back on THEM.


I wouldn't do that. One, because that approach probably won't work. They'll deny AND put the blame on him.

I think the OP should take what is his and that is the free time that his children have. If the ILs have a problem with that, let them cast the first stone. they may in fact like the idea and have always wondered why the OP never did that before. I think this is important because the kids may think Grandma and Grandpa pay for everything.

In any case, some one on two experiences are good. Whitewater rafting or some other outdoor sport would be very good.


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## Openminded

Does she know you’re unhappy enough to divorce her one day?


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## hawkeye11

Openminded said:


> Does she know you’re unhappy enough to divorce her one day?


I don't think so. You would have to meet her and her family to fully understand why I haven't done so. No one involved in this situation is a proverbial "bad" guy. I know her family loves their grandsons (and nephews) with all their heart. But, I am essentially a fifth wheel in all this. Like I said in the intro, I could write a book about my specific experiences in order to present a full picture. This is a very self-absorbed, egocentric, obtuse family. The father is an old college athlete jock from the 1950's who always lives his life the way he wants it; the mother is sort of a maid and servant; she's never cut the umbilical chord to her daughter (my wife) as a result. My wife learned this ego-centrism from her father. In the recent past, I think my wife thought a divorce could ensue and backed off somewhat. Now, like I said, these issues haven't been brought up in two years because I know where she stands. I sacrifice for my sons to provide them familial peace and stability.


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## Blondilocks

Does she work? If not, is there any chance of her getting a job? That would ease the financial ramifications of a divorce.

Also, you don't have to be the porter. How about missing a few of these outings and let your wife explain your absence to her parents.


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## Tdbo

NextTimeAround said:


> I wouldn't do that. One, because that approach probably won't work. They'll deny AND put the blame on him.
> 
> I think the OP should take what is his and that is the free time that his children have. If the ILs have a problem with that, let them cast the first stone. they may in fact like the idea and have always wondered why the OP never did that before. I think this is important because the kids may think Grandma and Grandpa pay for everything.
> 
> In any case, some one on two experiences are good. Whitewater rafting or some other outdoor sport would be very good.


One way or another, he needs to get some agency in his life.
Taking the kids somewhere and excluding dear Ol' Mom might send a message.


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## Marduk

I was in a similar place with my ex (without kids) and it sucks. To hate every weekend, to hate your own vacations... that sucks.

It also sucks that you've been doing this for 20 years and won't divorce over it. My call would be to walk, but you're not going to do that. But, FFS, at least stop being the errand boy when they are there. If she wants to ignore you, smile, and let her do that - you go do your thing. Probably with your kids and leave her to her parents.

So with that being said, you're focusing on cutting your inlaws out of family things involving your kids. My advice is don't. That's going to strike her as manipulative and putting her in a bad spot. Instead, do things that are couple things. Is she going to invite her mom on date nights? Is she going to invite her parents on a long weekend Vegas sexy romp with just the two of you? A romantic week in Paris? BDSM night at the local sex shop? No.

Use this situation if you're not going to walk away from it. Her doting parents can sure take care of your kids on date nights, weekend getaways, and romantic trips now that your kids are likely more than old enough for those kinds of things. That's what a buddy of mine did in a similar spot, and now they have something we never had - the ability to have built in babysitters and support for when you need it.


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## Spicy

I would ask your FIL to take a quick walk with you at the next game. 

Approach him from the “needing advice from another dad”. (Aka play to his ego).

Calmly tell him how grateful you are for their support of your boys, and that they will continue to need it. That you are happy they are so close.

Then let him know that on the other hand, your family is suffering from spending none of your family time just the four of you. Say, “I’m sure you can understand how that could affect a family, never enjoying any of their recreation alone”. Now that the boys have reached these challenging ages or something to that effect, you need to focus more on them and your wife, but it can’t be done because there is always a group.

Express your concern for your boys *and also your marriage.* Say that you know your wife will continue to invite them to every single thing, because that is her kind nature, but if _they could please consider declining just some of the invites_, that you know it will help your core family get close and a strong bond be built again. 

I’m sure they don’t want her to get divorced, and letting him in on this intel that it is affecting your marriage too, may really help. Normally I would answer...”talk to your wife blah blah blah”. You have done that already. Try a different approach.


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## Tilted 1

If you continue to let this be as it is, you've just inoculated your son's to be passive and accepting the wife as head of the house. Not really looking out for them. You need to be upfront with your wife and don't do it passively, your W only knows strength. Be that! 

Enough is enough, time to take charge of your life. And your family.


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## Marduk

Spicy said:


> I would ask your FIL to take a quick walk with you at the next game.
> 
> Approach him from the “needing advice from another dad”. (Aka play to his ego).
> 
> Calmly tell him how grateful you are for their support of your boys, and that they will continue to need it. That you are happy they are so close.
> 
> Then let him know that on the other hand, your family is suffering from spending none of your family time just the four of you. Say, “I’m sure you can understand how that could affect a family, never enjoying any of their recreation alone”. Now that the boys have reached these challenging ages or something to that effect, you need to focus more on them and your wife, but it can’t be done because there is always a group.
> 
> Express your concern for your boys *and also your marriage.* Say that you know your wife will continue to invite them to every single thing, because that is her kind nature, but if _they could please consider declining just some of the invites_, that you know it will help your core family get close and a strong bond be built again.
> 
> I’m sure they don’t want her to get divorced, and letting him in on this intel that it is affecting your marriage too, may really help. Normally I would answer...”talk to your wife blah blah blah”. You have done that already. Try a different approach.


While I think this is a good idea and _might_ work, I tried this with my first FIL and he agreed to it in the conversation with me on a golf course, just the two of us. And then later told my MIL and my wife that I was obviously trying to control his daughter and keep her away from them, and that if I didn't want to spend time with them, I didn't have to. But their daughter could and would.

This is after 2 years of us spending 2 weekends every month driving 3 hours away to their place and staying with them, spending _every_ vacation and long weekend at their place or at their vacation home, and never getting a honeymoon - you can guess why.

My guess is that her parents like this arrangement exactly like it is, and are manipulative enough to get what they want. But still worth a shot.


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## Spicy

Marduk said:


> While I think this is a good idea and _might_ work, I tried this with my first FIL and he agreed to it in the conversation with me on a golf course, just the two of us. And then later told my MIL and my wife that I was obviously trying to control his daughter and keep her away from them, and that if I didn't want to spend time with them, I didn't have to. But their daughter could and would.
> 
> This is after 2 years of us spending 2 weekends every month driving 3 hours away to their place and staying with them, spending _every_ vacation and long weekend at their place or at their vacation home, and never getting a honeymoon - you can guess why.
> 
> My guess is that her parents like this arrangement exactly like it is, and are manipulative enough to get what they want. But still worth a shot.


Wow, two wives in a row like this??? Bizarre. You are attracted to a certain kind of women.

H and I both love to spend time with our parents, but we love to spend time alone and with just our kids way more!

I would still try it. There is no doubt he will tell your MIL, and depending on her personality you could include her in the walk so she knows exactly what you said. Your wife already knows how you feel, so when it gets back to her it won’t be a big surprise. If this doesn’t work, I would begin the trips with just you and your boys.


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## jlg07

Could you just plan a fun weekend with your wife/kids, NOT TELL HER what you are planning (even if it conflicts with something she has setup with her family), just wake up, get them in the car and GO so that she has no time to include her family?


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## Marduk

Spicy said:


> Wow, two wives in a row like this??? Bizarre. You are attracted to a certain kind of women.
> 
> H and I both love to spend time with our parents, but we love to spend time alone and with just our kids way more!
> 
> I would still try it. There is no doubt he will tell your MIL, and depending on her personality you could include her in the walk so she knows exactly what you said. Your wife already knows how you feel, so when it gets back to her it won’t be a big surprise. If this doesn’t work, I would begin the trips with just you and your boys.


Sorry perhaps I misspoke. Only my ex wife was enmeshed with her family. But there was all kinds of weirdness with her, and it was really the least of the problems I encountered.

My point is that her family wasn't going to let her have a life of her own, and by extension to have us have a life of our own without a fight.

With my current wife, I get along with her family better than she does, and we've certainly set boundaries there.


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## SpinyNorman

I know several friends/relatives whose wives have declared DH's family persona non grata while their own family ranks ahead of DH in the marriage. Of course not all nor even most women are like this, but neither is this a one-off.


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## hawkeye11

Thank you everyone for your responses. The varied "solutions" certainly tell me that there are no easy answers. Some of you have mentioned my wife getting her way for so long that it is ingrained in her and her parents to get what they want; and how often. It is true that I did not mention my feelings on every occasion. However, we have discussed it in addition to two or three blow-ups from me about it. The last discussion was in 2018 where she said that, in referring to her parents and sister going everywhere we go that "this is family." She responded this way after I said something about it being bizarre behavior. She also mentioned, defensively, she knows some couple who went with in-laws to France together the previous summer. So, she and her parents have, in my opinion, know very well how to circle the wagons and gather the troops. Not budging an inch. Since I blew up about this, we have never returned to a theme park for a vacation. That was four years ago. I believe that she is worried to do this because not inviting them will hurt their feelings; inviting them will set me off.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, this will not be permanent. I don't know the ending-I haven't flipped through the pages and decided to read the last page of the last chapter of this book. What I do know is that this will come up again and will have a different result than in the past. That different result is the question mark.


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## frusdil

I will never understand why some men and women are so enmeshed with their parents. Pathetic.


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## sunsetmist

Do you have parents, close friends, siblings that you could include and hang with while ignoring her/them? After all it is only fair that your family gets to participate in the love! Everyone pays their own way if possible. Someone might get tired of this new norm.


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## Marc878

You teach people how they can treat you. Living the life of a martyr is a thankless task. Your kids will grow up and have their own life. What will you have then?

This won’t change now. You’ve let it go too long.


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## hawkeye11

sunsetmist said:


> Do you have parents, close friends, siblings that you could include and hang with while ignoring her/them? After all it is only fair that your family gets to participate in the love! Everyone pays their own way if possible. Someone might get tired of this new norm.


My father died of pancreatic cancer 10 years ago. My elderly, MS-stricken mother lives with my sister 1,200 miles away.


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## hawkeye11

Marc878 said:


> You teach people how they can treat you. Living the life of a martyr is a thankless task. Your kids will grow up and have their own life. What will you have then?
> 
> This won’t change now. You’ve let it go too long.


You are correct. Years ago I sought the help of a therapist. He asked me a very revealing question. What are things going to be like between you and your wife when the kids leave? I mentioned that we would probably be two ships passing in the night or worse. Simply put, there is no way that there will not be a come-to-Jesus moment conversation between the two of us. This will probably happen when my sons are a little bit older.


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## SpinyNorman

hawkeye11 said:


> You are correct. Years ago I sought the help of a therapist. He asked me a very revealing question. What are things going to be like between you and your wife when the kids leave? I mentioned that we would probably be two ships passing in the night or worse. Simply put, there is no way that there will not be a come-to-Jesus moment conversation between the two of us. This will probably happen when my sons are a little bit older.


IDK what your wife's relationship w/ the kids is like, but for many parents today it is best described as "umbilical". 

What are the odds she moves wherever they do and doesn't consider you any more important than she does now?


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