# Sex has gotten so boring



## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

My wife and I have been married for 20 years and I would say that we have a very good marriage. Here is the problem - when we first got together she told me up front that the only way for her to be able to orgasm is either if she is on top or by oral stimulation. That was fine with me and I had no problem with that. The first problem is that she is not a very sexual person so we probably don't have sex more often than once or twice a month. That being said, when we do have sex, since it has been so long, I tend to ejaculate very quickly. To counter that, I usually stimulate her orally until she orgasms and then it is my turn. All would be well and good except that I really would like to be stimulated orally myself or at least manually, but my wife will not give oral sex. She says that she has to really be in the mood for it for her to be able to give me oral sex. In the last 20 years she has given me oral sex 3 times. So as a result our sex life is like this: we have foreplay for a while with me doing most of it, I stimulate her orally until she orgasms, we go to the missionary position until I orgasm and that is it. It has been the same routine for 20 years.

I would even forget about the oral sex altogether if she would act more sexy. When we have sex, I try to stimulate her as much as possible by touching, rubbing and kissing, and I know she really enjoys it, however she fails to reciprocate. When we start out she does rub and fondle my penis, but this doesn't last long and she just stops. After she has her orgasm, I would love for her to touch, rub, and fondle me, but it just doesn't happen.

I know that communication is the key to a healthy marriage and sex life, but I am afraid that she will be appalled if I ask her to be more sensual. Did I mention that she comes from a Pentecostal Holiness background? Some things you just don't talk about. I am surprised that she ever told me that she has to be on top to orgasm. That was the last sex talk we had.

I have never been unfaithful to my wife but I am very afraid that if things don't change in the bedroom that if I were presented the opportunity to have sex with someone else, I might be tempted - just so I could have normal, non-boring sex for once.

Help me please.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> My wife and I have been married for 20 years and I would say that we have a very good marriage. Here is the problem - when we first got together she told me up front that the only way for her to be able to orgasm is either if she is on top or by oral stimulation. That was fine with me and I had no problem with that. The first problem is that she is not a very sexual person so we probably don't have sex more often than once or twice a month. That being said, when we do have sex, since it has been so long, I tend to ejaculate very quickly. To counter that, I usually stimulate her orally until she orgasms and then it is my turn. All would be well and good except that I really would like to be stimulated orally myself or at least manually, but my wife will not give oral sex. She says that she has to really be in the mood for it for her to be able to give me oral sex. In the last 20 years she has given me oral sex 3 times. So as a result our sex life is like this: we have foreplay for a while with me doing most of it, I stimulate her orally until she orgasms, we go to the missionary position until I orgasm and that is it. It has been the same routine for 20 years.
> 
> I would even forget about the oral sex altogether if she would act more sexy. When we have sex, I try to stimulate her as much as possible by touching, rubbing and kissing, and I know she really enjoys it, however she fails to reciprocate. When we start out she does rub and fondle my penis, but this doesn't last long and she just stops. After she has her orgasm, I would love for her to touch, rub, and fondle me, but it just doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


A couple of questions: Is she still religious, or just carrying around that baggage?

Who usually initiates sex, you or your wife?

How often do you whack off? (serious question)

How often do you date her?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well you know your solution (have an open and honest talk) and are just too afraid of implementing it.

so either, be bored/miserable or ask for what you what


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Well, the way that I see it you have a couple of options here. The first is communication - she likely thinks everything is fine because you never indicate otherwise. So, unless you speak up she'll never know. The risk, of course, is that she may get defensive or feel inadequate.

The second, if you are unsure about trying the communication route initially, is to just take ownership of moving the sexual relationship forward yourself. This would be by trying to incorporate subtle differences into each of your lovemaking experiences AND to try more non-sexual touching and conversation with your wife each day.

For example, if you're always missionary position, then start shifting things around. You move her upside down or sideways in the bed, you move the position of her legs. My H does this all the time - he'll say something like "I just want to try this out. Let's see how it feels."

So, put your thinking cap on and start thinking about what subtle things YOU could start to do - lead the way - see what happens.

I don't think your wife will likely just become a sensuous woman unless she has some help, guidance, and reassurance from you. And that can happen both in and out of the bedroom.

God Bless.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> A couple of questions: Is she still religious, or just carrying around that baggage?
> 
> Who usually initiates sex, you or your wife?
> 
> ...


She usually initiates it. Most of the time when I do she says, let's play tomorrow.

Because of my situation I watch a lot of porn (not the kinky, weird stuff) and masturbate several times a week.

Not very often, unfortunately.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JC: If you haven't surfed over to Athol Kay's site, Married Man Sex Life, you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to. It explains a lot of what's going on with your sex life, and has positive steps you can take to improve it.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Well, the way that I see it you have a couple of options here. The first is communication - she likely thinks everything is fine because you never indicate otherwise. So, unless you speak up she'll never know. The risk, of course, is that she may get defensive or feel inadequate.
> 
> The second, if you are unsure about trying the communication route initially, is to just take ownership of moving the sexual relationship forward yourself. This would be by trying to incorporate subtle differences into each of your lovemaking experiences AND to try more non-sexual touching and conversation with your wife each day.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Just this week I took a bold step and tried something different. While I was giving her oral, I moved into the 69 position. My thought was that maybe she will try oral as well since the position was right and even if not, maybe she would stimulate me manually. She did neither. I was so disappointed that I lost my erection.

I have to mention that we do a lot of non-sexual touching whenever we are together. We hold hands often and I also rub and touch her in non-sexual ways whenever possible.

BTW, we are both in our late 50s.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You married a good girl and she has been a good wife to you for 20 yrs. If you want a different sort of women I think you need to do the work to find her. The way you are thinking now is grossly unfair to your wife and family.
> 
> No not that you want a different sort of woman that happens but that you would contemplate cheating and all of the pain and disruption to you wife and kids who never harmed you. If you want something different and your wife cannot offer that to you then make an orderly, planned and controlled exit. It will be hard on you and your family but will not bring the devastation and mental anguish to your family that cheating would.
> 
> ...


Catherine, most men who admit that they are thinking about cheating are actually saying that their current sexual status quo is bad enough so that yes, the possibility of a making a poor decision in the face of temptation becomes recognizable, and they don't want to do that. Scolding the dude for his honest assessment of his situation isn't going to help him. Sure, he wants to be faithful -- but his Buzz is getting too loud for him to appreciate the other good things in his life. If he doesn't slake the Buzz, then, well, something might happen. And reminding him of his 20 long low-sex commitment in the face of his desire for novelty is likewise unhelpful -- he needs to know how to juice up his relationship. Which might mean some serious changes on his part, true, but he's not going to be motivated by guilt and duty. Eventually the Buzz can overwhelm even those powerful factors.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Just this week I took a bold step and tried something different. While I was giving her oral, I moved into the 69 position. My thought was that maybe she will try oral as well since the position was right and even if not, maybe she would stimulate me manually. She did neither. I was so disappointed that I lost my erection.
> 
> I have to mention that we do a lot of non-sexual touching whenever we are together. We hold hands often and I also rub and touch her in non-sexual ways whenever possible.
> 
> BTW, we are both in our late 50s.


Does she indulge in romance novels or the like? And do you watch porn at all? Sometimes it's just a matter of providing some enrichment, both romantic and sexual, to get the erotic imagination fired up on both sides.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I read that watching porn actually decreases a man's satisfaction with the real thing and causes unrealistic expectations.


Read where? And who wrote it?

Porn doesn't do that any more than reading romance novels decreases a woman's satisfaction with the real thing and causes unrealistic expectations. 

That's your advice? "Lower your expectations"? That doesn't really seem fair.



Catherine602 said:


> What exactly do you want from your wife? Are you looking for h to act like one of the porn actresses? Does she know you watch porn, how does she feel.
> 
> Many women lose respect for men who watch porn and they are loath to do anything even close to what porn stars to. Maybe you should try giving up porn and concentration on your sex life with your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Oh. So it _is_ "lower your expectations", with a little "shame on you" on the side. 

A woman who loses respect for a man who watches porn doesn't want to understand her own husband's sexuality -- and shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't want to understand hers in return. If nothing else, it certainly calls into question her level of commitment and even her love for her husband. 

How would the ladies like it if we were to lose respect for them for watching soaps and reading romance novels, and then refused to do anything the romantic male leads do? Somehow I don't think y'all would be amused.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You married a good girl and she has been a good wife to you for 20 yrs. If you want a different sort of women I think you need to do the work to find her. The way you are thinking now is grossly unfair to your wife and family.
> 
> No not that you want a different sort of woman that happens but that you would contemplate cheating and all of the pain and disruption to you wife and kids who never harmed you. If you want something different and your wife cannot offer that to you then make an orderly, planned and controlled exit. It will be hard on you and your family but will not bring the devastation and mental anguish to your family that cheating would.
> 
> ...


Yes, it would be grossly unfair and that is why there is so much fear over this thought. I have been cheated on myself and I know how it feels.

As far as having all of the "fun", I try to give my wife all that she needs and wants sexually and for those rare times that she does not achieve orgasm, I am perfectly willing to forgo my own satisfaction until another time.

My wife means everything to me, and I try very hard to please her in every way. After our lovemaking she is very satisfied and she has told me so. Unfortunately, I am not the one who is unimaginative and boring. If you had read this thread carefully and not focused on the cheating aspect you would see that. Cheating is not really an option because I love my wife and I would not want to do anything to hurt her, but it disturbs me that I even had the thought.

As far a porn goes, a lot of it is quite disgusting, but the aspect of porn that gets me stimulated is when the *female partner is very active in trying to please her man* as well as the man trying to please her. I don't care about kinky sex. About as kinky as I ever want to get is doing "doggie style" once and a while and some reciprocal action on her part.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

average once or twice a month with 3 bjs in the past 20 years after you doing all the work to give her pleasure . . it seems rather one-sided and unfair, and you have been settling for way too little for a very long time. there is no way I would have let this slde for so long.

When she asks you to do something around the house, tell her you really need to be in the mood for it.

I hope you guys can communicate openly about this.. best of luck to you and your wife.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Just this week I took a bold step and tried something different. While I was giving her oral, I moved into the 69 position. My thought was that maybe she will try oral as well since the position was right and even if not, maybe she would stimulate me manually. She did neither. I was so disappointed that I lost my erection.
> 
> I have to mention that we do a lot of non-sexual touching whenever we are together. We hold hands often and I also rub and touch her in non-sexual ways whenever possible.
> 
> BTW, we are both in our late 50s.


Hmm... I wonder if she knew that she was expected to give you oral in the 69 position or not? Did you verbalize this to her or just expect her to take the hint? If you hint physically like that, but she's not biting (no pun intended), then verbalize it.

To be totally honest, I cannot do that position - I need to close my eyes and concentrate on being simulated to reach an orgasm, and that is really hard to do when also trying to stimulate another. 

There are lots of good books that could give you ideas:

Amazon.com: how to make love to a woman: Books

You said you are in your late 50's. She is through menopause? Does she have any issues with dryness/pain? After menopause, with the loss of estrogen the vagina thins and dries out and can make intercourse more uncomfortable. Just wanting to make sure that there isn't a physical impediment that could be causing some reluctance.

Best wishes.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ian - Too bad that the sex buzz is so overwhelming that all else fades into the background. Morality, concern for kids, concern for hurting wife, concern for an abrupt change in living conditions for them all . Maybe you mean that I am making it difficult for him to be selfish by reminding him of duty and responsibility, protection, the debt he owes a faithful good wife and innocent kids. 

I am religating him to the dull grayness of his existence when he could have the excitement of mindless porn sex with real woman who will touch him the way the porn stars touch, desire him sexually and be willing to do anything for him. That all important sex, sex, sex should make him a happy man. Free of the shackles of marriage and he can take his birthright of endless variety and newness with different hot chicks having sex like a porn star. A very few men may have this after 20 years of marriage but a man with is stupid enough to throw away a good marriage and a good wife and family to satisfy an itch is a fool and he will soon find it out. I was trying to remind him of that. 

I want to run away sometimes when it gets overwhelming for me or boring. I am certain I would be able to find many sex partners and even a man or two who would fall in love with me, although I am not 22 anymore. But I choose to stay with my family and the life I built, the deep bonds and history. It seems dull and and unrewarding sometimes but when I feel this way, I take responsibility and inject the excitement adventure of new d**k with my husband. I make a choice and do what it takes to make it happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> As far a porn goes, a lot of it is quite disgusting, but the aspect of porn that gets me stimulated is when the *female partner is very active in trying to please her man* as well as the man trying to please her. I don't care about kinky sex. About as kinky as I ever want to get is doing "doggie style" once and a while and some reciprocal action on her part.


Wanting their female partner to be more active, enthusiastic, and initiative seems to be a common theme for men. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't become some all-encompassing ruler by which the woman is constantly measured.

For many women, initiating or being overly enthusiastic can be a hard feat - especially if she has had some prior conditioning in her life (e.g., religious/moral) that makes her believe this is wrong or dirty.

As well, for many women they are loathe to do anything that may make them feel 'used' (sometimes 'one-sided' or 'perfomance-type' acts can cause that feeling). If a woman feels like she is going to be compared to some other standard where she will come up short, her insecurities may take over and she may be very unlikely to be willing to make a move.

Just trying to give some insight in to what possible thought processes could be going on if your wife fits in to one of those categories.

Another question: You are sure she is being satisfied? For women it can take a lot longer than for men, and they can leave the table, so to speak, without ever really being satisfied and without ever verbalizing it (they may not even know they could have it better). Taking longer to do foreplay and work with her and watch her responses could go a long way to helping alleviate that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joe that why I suggest that porn may be robbing you of sexual satisfaction with your wife. You want her to be someonrpe she is not - if she was never active and enthusiastic about pleasing her man then she is not that kind of person and she is unlikely to spontaneously become that person. Besides, porn is fiction the eggerness and enthusiasm displayed by the porn actresses is an act. Do you want your wife to put on a show for you? She is not likely to think she owes you a show. 

I was not sexually imaginative or experimental when I first got married. In fact I was quite repressed. My husbands attitude brought me slowly out of my shell. He did it incrementally, patiently and he never showed disappointment. When you did the 69 thing - how do you know that she knew what you wanted? When you lost your errection it probably confused and worried her. You want to build up her confidence and reassure her that you are happy with her. If you tear her down you will go in the opposite direction of your goal. 

You know your wife best of all but I can tell you from the standpoint of a formerly repressesd female the best way to approach her. First it is going to take patience and control. The more patience and groundwork you put in the more you will get out. My husband makes me feel sexy and beautiful I never feel that he is trying to make me into one of the characters he sees in porn. It seems to be all about us. 

I would suggest that you change the focus of your efforts from trying to get her to do an act to making her feel like doing it. If she des not know what you want and why how can she respond? She obviously loves you, you are a normal man and as such needs to change the dynamic to keep it fresh. She will go along with you if you approach as something that is normal that husbands and wives make changes. 

men usually lead the charge and it is not dissatisfaction with her but just seeing how things could be for both of you. If you think like that then you will not do something and expect to know what you are thinking and you will not act disappointed. Be calm, assured and like you know what you are doing. Lovingly direct her in small steps. Talk about it and let her know you appetite for her is changing but making about being inspired by her not porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Wanting their female partner to be more active, enthusiastic, and initiative seems to be a common theme for men. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't become some all-encompassing ruler by which the woman is constantly measured.
> 
> For many women, initiating or being overly enthusiastic can be a hard feat - especially if she has had some prior conditioning in her life (e.g., religious/moral) that makes her believe this is wrong or dirty.
> 
> ...


Accepted for publication ---- a nugget of gold here!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Too bad that the sex buzz is so overwhelming that all else fades into the background. Morality, concern for kids, concern for hurting wife, concern for an abrupt change in living conditions for them all . Maybe you mean that I am making it difficult for him to be selfish by reminding him of duty and responsibility, protection, the debt he owes a faithful good wife and innocent kids.


Yes, it is too bad that the Buzz is that overwhelming. And yes, it can disrupt all that and make it secondary. And it's not that you are making it difficult for him to be selfish by reminding him of all of that, you are actually exacerbating the power of the Buzz by invoking the latent resentment he feels about his dedication to those ideals for 20 years and what he has to show for it. But it's a subtle thing, I understand.



Catherine602 said:


> I am religating him to the dull grayness of his existence when he could have the excitement of mindless porn sex with real woman who will touch him the way the porn stars touch, desire him sexually and be willing to do anything for him. That all important sex, sex, sex should make him a happy man.


I've seen very few men complain "I'm just having too much wild sex." And I've seen very few men who don't have sex express how happy and content they are with their lives.

And yes, you are relegating him to that. He could, theoretically, have all of that with his wife. Ideally he should. He doesn't, it's making him depressed and resentful, and he came here for advice so that he didn't do something stupid. 



Catherine602 said:


> Free of the shackles of marriage and he can take his birthright of endless variety and newness with different hot chicks having sex like a porn star. A very few men may have this after 20 years of marriage but a man with is stupid enough to throw away a good marriage and a good wife and family to satisfy an itch is a fool and he will soon find it out. I was trying to remind him of that.


The fact that you see the Buzz as "an itch" tells me you don't understand it or its power. That's like a man dismissing menstruation or pregnancy as "a minor inconvenience". The Buzz is a fundamental fact of life for men, and it can overwhelm everything else if allowed to. And the more you tell a man about his duty and responsibilities when the Buzz is in his ear, the more you feed into the insidious idea that he's done his part and can move on towards a more fulfilling life. 



Catherine602 said:


> I want to run away sometimes when it gets overwhelming for me or boring. I am certain I would be able to find many sex partners and even a man or two who would fall in love with me, although I am not 22 anymore. But I choose to stay with my family and the life I built, the deep bonds and history. It seems dull and and unrewarding sometimes but when I feel this way, I take responsibility and inject the excitement adventure of new d**k with my husband. I make a choice and do what it takes to make it happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You aren't a man. You don't hear the Buzz. The Buzz encourages you to eschew that security . . . it's not just being overwhelming or in consideration of a boring life. It's real to us, and not easily dismissed.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Joe that why I suggest that porn may be robbing you of sexual satisfaction with your wife. You want her to be someonrpe she is not - if she was never active and enthusiastic about pleasing her man then she is not that kind of person and she is unlikely to spontaneously become that person. Besides, porn is fiction the eggerness and enthusiasm displayed by the porn actresses is an act. Do you want your wife to put on a show for you? She is not likely to think she owes you a show.


Joe, accepting the _status quo_ is unfair to you and, believe it or not, your wife. Catherine wants you to lower your expectations to . . . well, basically, where they have been for 20 years. She doesn't feel your wife is capable of growth in this arena, and she might be correct. If that is the case, then you have some serious decision-making ahead of you: either you condemn yourself (and her) to spend the rest of your life resenting her more daily until you are dead, or you take action and at least try to pursue the kind of sex-life you want with her. 

And don't bother trying to romance her. Romance is fiction. The sensitivity and enthusiasm displayed by the romantic male leads is an act. Do you want to put on a show for your wife? You do not owe her a show.

Doesn't look quite as acceptable from that standpoint, does it?



Catherine602 said:


> I was not sexually imaginative or experimental when I first got married. In fact I was quite repressed. My husbands attitude brought me slowly out of my shell. He did it incrementally, patiently and he never showed disappointment. When you did the 69 thing - how do you know that she knew what you wanted? When you lost your errection it probably confused and worried her. You want to build up her confidence and reassure her that you are happy with her. If you tear her down you will go in the opposite direction of your goal.


Of course, if you are generally unhappy with her performance, then faking your happiness might be an option. The fact that she tacitly rejected your overture and made you feel like crap, thus losing your erection, I'm sure yo can find some way around that. You don't have to tear her down, but if she doesn't know that there is a problem and the nature of that problem, you're never going to make it.



Catherine602 said:


> You know your wife best of all but I can tell you from the standpoint of a formerly repressesd female the best way to approach her. First it is going to take patience and control. The more patience and groundwork you put in the more you will get out. My husband makes me feel sexy and beautiful I never feel that he is trying to make me into one of the characters he sees in porn. It seems to be all about us.
> 
> I would suggest that you change the focus of your efforts from trying to get her to do an act to making her feel like doing it. If she des not know what you want and why how can she respond? She obviously loves you, you are a normal man and as such needs to change the dynamic to keep it fresh. She will go along with you if you approach as something that is normal that husbands and wives make changes.


You can try this route, but it is unlikely to work. Wives in long term relationships tend to see whatever it is that they are doing in bed as "perfectly sufficient" if you haven't complained bitterly (and when you do, then you're being "unreasonable"). You need to lay it out for your wife, tell her how her actions have made you feel (and put it in those terms) and indicate to her that you are in the process of searching for answers to this dilemma. But she does need to know how you feel, and you should be prepared for some fireworks and fallout. But you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.



Catherine602 said:


> men usually lead the charge and it is not dissatisfaction with her but just seeing how things could be for both of you. If you think like that then you will not do something and expect to know what you are thinking and you will not act disappointed. Be calm, assured and like you know what you are doing. Lovingly direct her in small steps. Talk about it and let her know you appetite for her is changing but making about being inspired by her not porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, good luck with that. Try Catherine's approach, and let us know what happens. I'm curious to see how it plays out.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Honestly, all about this 'Buzz'.

A man who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the 'Buzz', not the one who lets it lead him around by his [email protected]

"_I am,
indeed,
a king,
because I know how
to rule myself."
~Pietro Aretino_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Honestly, all about this 'Buzz'.
> 
> A man who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the 'Buzz', not the one who lets it lead him around by his [email protected]
> 
> ...


:iagree: For sure. I am glad my husband is not a neanderthal! However, he's very sexual and into some awesome things (same things I'm into)...but he doesn't follow his d!ck around like a tuning fork. He sees women as whole beings, not just walking sperm receptacles.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joe you can be rigid, doctrinaire and say and do things that push your wife away. You will make her retreat and you may then find I easier to have an affair. men who push this agenda of telling her what you want and being clear about what she needs to do to prevent you from cheating know nothing about intimacy. If they think that is how it works between men and woman then, they can not possibly have ever had a connected intimate relationship with a woman. They blame their unhappiness on the deficiencies of women and the wholeness of the male. That his not where you are so I would be careful. 

They try to push an agenda of hostility to anything female vulnerable or yielding. They don't want to be close to a woman but they want sex from her free and clear of any obligations but they can't get it. They try to spread their bitterness and lack of ability to be close to anyone to others. It would validate them.. You have the capacity to bond but you have a problem that is solvable. An avoindant man cannot see that because they think in black and white. Think in shades of gray and use your love and capacity to bond as a tool. Do come back and tell us you plans and you successes and failures. I think you will be successful just don't get discouraged at the outset. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Honestly, all about this 'Buzz'.
> 
> A man who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the 'Buzz', not the one who lets it lead him around by his [email protected]
> 
> ...


One could make the same argument about women, and their reproductive issues. Both are a rarity, in my opinion. Let's turn it around and see how it scans: 

"A woman who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the hormonal maelstrom and physical effects of her reproductive cycle, not the one who lets it lead her around by her uterus and ovaries."

Hmmm. You may have something, there.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> :iagree: For sure. I am glad my husband is not a neanderthal! However, he's very sexual and into some awesome things (same things I'm into)...but he doesn't follow his d!ck around like a tuning fork. He sees women as whole beings, not just walking sperm receptacles.


Again. You don't understand the Buzz. And you misrepresent my position. The OP isn't following his d!ck around like a tuning fork either, because it's been sadly silent for 20 years while the Buzz consumes his mind. Is it a crime he wants it to hum again?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> One could make the same argument about women, and their reproductive issues. Both are a rarity, in my opinion. Let's turn it around and see how it scans:
> 
> "A woman who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the hormonal maelstrom and physical effects of her reproductive cycle, not the one who lets it lead her around by her uterus and ovaries."
> 
> Hmmm. You may have something, there.


I do not disagree.

I believe that we, both men and women, are responsible for our actions and our choices.

If we so choose, we do not have to let our baser natures, or our 'buzzes', rule us.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Joe you can be rigid, doctrinaire and say and do things that push your wife away. You will make her retreat and you may then find I easier to have an affair. men who push this agenda of telling her what you want and being clear about what she needs to do to prevent you from cheating know nothing about intimacy. If they think that is how it works between men and woman then, they can not possibly have ever had a connected intimate relationship with a woman.


You are incorrect. The Manosphere is filled with plenty of men who did just that, and are living more fulfilling, more sexual lives with their wives (or without them). See: Athol Kay. Or myself. That's essentially what I did. Never been happier, or enjoyed a deeper connection with my wife now that I've made her understand.




Catherine602 said:


> They blame their unhappiness on the deficiencies of women and the wholeness of the male. That his not where you are so I would be careful.
> 
> They try to push an agenda of hostility to anything female vulnerable or yielding.


Just because you feel threatened by the strength of their arguments, doesn't mean that they are hostile. I merely want women to be held accountable for their equality, and extend that courtesy to men. That means that sex is on the table in the equation. That's not an "agenda", that's just being fair.



Catherine602 said:


> They don't want to be close to a woman but they want sex from her free and clear of any obligations but they can't get it.


_Au contraire_: they do want to be close to a woman, which means having fulfilling sex with her in concert with their obligations as husbands. But they can't get it. Without guidance from an older generation (in this case, that can't be helped -- the rules changed on our fathers and they are more clueless than we are) we are merely seeking an answer that satisfies our needs and desires and simultaneously fulfills those of our wives, without conditions, excuses, or overt assertions of power. 




Catherine602 said:


> They try to spread their bitterness and lack of ability to be close to anyone to others. It would validate them.. You have the capacity to bond but you have a problem that is solvable. An avoindant man cannot see that because they think in black and white. Think in shades of gray and use your love and capacity to bond as a tool.


That's her nice way of telling you to forget about it, accept the status quo, and lower your expectations dramatically. It's not a black-and-white thing, it's a male-female thing. There are few shades of gray between males and females. We each have our specific interests, and pursue them. Don't let anyone try to convince you that your interests are inferior to hers. 



Catherine602 said:


> Do come back and tell us you plans and you successes and failures. I think you will be successful just don't get discouraged at the outset. Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree. I look forward to hearing from you.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I do not disagree.
> 
> I believe that we, both men and women, are responsible for our actions and our choices.
> 
> If we so choose, we do not have to let our baser natures, or our 'buzzes', rule us.


I'm going to remind my mother-in-law of that next time she turns down the heat -- she's in the throes of menopause.

"Mimi, you're just letting your baser nature rule you. Get over it!"

I'm sure it will go over splendidly.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm going to remind my mother-in-law of that next time she turns down the heat -- she's in the throes of menopause.
> 
> "Mimi, you're just letting your baser nature rule you. Get over it!"
> 
> I'm sure it will go over splendidly.


Well, I'm in peri-menopause right now and I have hot flashes and night sweats, and I frequently do say just that to myself. (Reminding yourself it won't last forever helps too.)

I have found that your ATTITUDE about things can make a big difference in life. A positive attitude can help immensely.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

You are exactly the way my wife and i were before things blew up AND OUR SEXLESS PERIOD (Two years now) started.

She is not that in to you, she holds resentments sooner or later you may be sexless too. Those resentments have been piling up since your wedding day. That;s why the sex is lame youare not worth her energy.

You have to find out what she resents in you. She's just going with the flow but day by day she s building more and more resentment. Til one day...IMILWYBNILWY!

She won't tell you but one day she may give you the same ILYBNILWY speech.

Think about this:

If she really was happy and loved you... you would be getting better sex. Simple.

Find out whats wrong before she goes sexless on you. That really sucks.

Been there just now starting to turn a corner.


Fix yourself.. find out why she isn't feeling it. You don't turn her on it's boring and she resents you and YOU ARE CLUELESS . Only difference between you and I right now is you are having more bad sex and I'm having virtually none. But I now have set clear expectations and truly believe a way better sex life is around he corner with my wife. I've been working on me for two years. I'm becoming he man she really wants.

I'm re-booting our marriage.

She has to WANT you to have GOOD SEX with YOU. Change YOU. Then set clear expectations with HER. Don't accept a suck sex life. Save your marriage.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hmm... I wonder if she knew that she was expected to give you oral in the 69 position or not? Did you verbalize this to her or just expect her to take the hint? If you hint physically like that, but she's not biting (no pun intended), then verbalize it.
> 
> To be totally honest, I cannot do that position - I need to close my eyes and concentrate on being simulated to reach an orgasm, and that is really hard to do when also trying to stimulate another.
> 
> ...


Once again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I'm pretty sure that she knew what to do in that position since that is the only way we have ever done it in the past, but it is possible that she just didn't have a clue. Regardless, I would have gone for a little manual stimulation instead of her hands being by her side. The point is that I would love to at least have some touching and sensuality from her. It all really feels one sided. She knows what I like because I know on several occasions I have told her that I like oral sex just as much as she does.

What makes it all so puzzling to me is that I know that my wife really loves me and cares for me, and she shows it in many different ways, just not in the bedroom. I know what she enjoys when we are intimate and I know what turns her on and it is because I love her and care about her is why when we have sex I try to make sure that I do what I know she enjoys so that I can bring her the kind of satisfaction that she is looking for.

As far as the whole menopause thing, I don't really think that she is avoiding sex because of pain or unpleasantness because she did buy some lubricant just for very reason that she is post menopausal and is subject to dryness. I think that she does not have a very strong sex drive. Honestly, it is not the frequency that is at issue here. I just want just a little more sensuality from her. At least as much as I show to her, after all, I am not a wild man. Chandeliers, ropes, chains, vibrators, rings and all that other stuff really does not really interest me. Touching, feeling, rubbing, stroking, all of the things that I do for her, is all I want in return.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> Once again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I'm pretty sure that she knew what to do in that position since that is the only way we have ever done it in the past, but it is possible that she just didn't have a clue. Regardless, I would have gone for a little manual stimulation instead of her hands being by her side. The point is that I would love to at least have some touching and sensuality from her. It all really feels one sided. She knows what I like because I know on several occasions I have told her that I like oral sex just as much as she does.
> 
> What makes it all so puzzling to me is that I know that my wife really loves me and cares for me, and she shows it in many different ways, just not in the bedroom. I know what she enjoys when we are intimate and I know what turns her on and it is because I love her and care about her is why when we have sex I try to make sure that I do what I know she enjoys so that I can bring her the kind of satisfaction that she is looking for.
> 
> As far as the whole menopause thing, I don't really think that she is avoiding sex because of pain or unpleasantness because she did buy some lubricant just for very reason that she is post menopausal and is subject to dryness. I think that she does not have a very strong sex drive. Honestly, it is not the frequency that is at issue here. I just want just a little more sensuality from her. At least as much as I show to her, after all, I am not a wild man. Chandeliers, ropes, chains, vibrators, rings and all that other stuff really does not really interest me. Touching, feeling, rubbing, stroking, all of the things that I do for her, is all I want in return.


I was there... yes she LOVES you but she doesn't find you exciting or sexy anymore guaranteed.. If she did you would be having better sex.

Don't get blindsided... not all is ok with your marriage. She resents you in some fashion. Sex is a chore to her in some fashion. She feels a little trapped. Your a known quantity and she doesn't need to invest her energy in you. you've allowed this boring sex life. She's just doing what you've allowed and resents you for it.

Think logically. Try to find out what she resents and change.

Work on you then set clear expectations. i guarantee ther is an issue she hasn't told you about..little resentments.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I was there... yes she LOVES you but she doesn't find you exciting or sexy anymore guaranteed.. If she did you would be having better sex.
> 
> Don't get blindsided... not all is ok with your marriage. She resents you in some fashion. Sex is a chore to her in some fashion. She feels a little trapped. Your a known quantity and she doesn't need to invest her energy in you. you've allowed this boring sex life. She's just doing what you've allowed and resents you for it.
> 
> ...


I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have to disagree with you. There is no resentment, but there does seem to be a lack of imagination. The biggest obstacle in me having a conversation about this is that I am afraid that once she hears how I am feeling she will feel guilt over not being the wife that she should have been. There are also other factors and fears that I have over not having this conversation with her, but I guarantee you that it is not resentment that is a factor here.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> but I am afraid that she will be appalled if I ask her to be more sensual. Did I mention that she comes from a Pentecostal Holiness background? Some things you just don't talk about. I am surprised that she ever told me that she has to be on top to orgasm. That was the last sex talk we had.




I think this might be MORE about her Pentacostol upbringing - and her hormonal state at this time in her life -than anything else. Pointing out...Once or twice a month sex, basically you do all the manual stimulating, she starts to touch you & just STOPS, failing to reciprocate. 

This does NOT sound like a case of resentment or lack of love to me- on her part. . Let's remember......Good girls aren't raised like that, most women brought up very religiously have a world of time coming out of that "mindset" ....that ANYTHING goes-even once married, no shame, grab his co**, lick it up, expressing high sensual pleasure may even feel taboo in their brains, these things get embedded in their psyche,-they push that type of talk away, it can hinder the whole bedroom experience. Men do not understand this cause of the High Test levels that make it so easy to throw all that crap out the window and get down & dirty- their minds are on a differnt hemisphere. 

It can be a pure uphill battle for a husband to deal with this, because it is 2 differing mindsets warring , one for what is acceptable-why do you want to get dirty ? (the woman), one for HIS pleasure -which makes him feel utterly loved , wanted (the man). 

If she could just SEE, FEEL, taste, whatever you want to call it...how this is affecting her husband, how this is hindering him in ways that she would NOT want -(resentment WILL build in him -make no mistake-likely has! ). If she truly loves him, she needs to open her mind , allow these talks ! Because HE wants to go there, he is her other half, his pleasure SHOULD matter, a good woman will engage him in this pleasure he seeks. He does not sound at all unreasonable to me. 

I had a decent measure of this "sex is dirty" thinking -when I was younger , my husband suffered because of it - we didn't even talk about sex (him being passive was no help to bring me out of this mind you), I felt peniss were homely, embarrased to even moan, show outright sexual pleasure, had to be under the covers, lights out, lingerie even seemed too stripper like....and I am even a more aggressive woman! 

.... I shed every bit of this on my own, but it was only after educating myself and having a sex drive explosion...If women could only feel "the Buzz" the way men do..their minds would be awakened unto thier husbands cries. 

Even though Ian is a little BRASH on here , I have to agree with most of what he speaks, though I don't feel Romance is worthless , I know it keeps me happy & I would be pi**ed if my husband threw that out.

This was Brilliant ...


> "A woman who is worthy of admiration and devotion and held in the highest esteem is the one who has been able to successfully channel and control the hormonal maelstrom and physical effects of her reproductive cycle, not the one who lets it lead her around by her uterus and ovaries."


 
Until a woman has walked a few months with some balls, they simply will NOT get it. Minus the balls, I swear I experienced it .....2 things happened to me.......I wanted my husband to get more creative, DO more to me, touch me more, get more aggressive / more Porn starish (yes that IS the truth)...

....and it was the 1st time in my life...I thought ....."OH my God, if I wasn't getting regular sex, even though I have a marriage to DIE FOR, I believe I could have cheated on my husband !" YIKES ... I even spoke this out loud to him -trying to EXPRESS how I was feeling ...it was "THAT strong". Trust me when I say , this was NEVER ME!!! My eyes were opened -WIDE to the male experience, the hormonal torture of need and desire, yearning for MORE. 

Poster, I sympathize with you, I never thought by your saying what you did -you meant you was going to run out & cheat on your wife, you simply spoke out of your frustration-it was an expression, the same thing I did. It was SCARY to admit that ! Hell yeah! 

I would say you have been pretty patient for 20 years, so why NOW, in your late 50's , this sudden "needing more", or you have always felt this way, but suffered silently, sucked it up, and now you are feeling a Midlife crisis coming on? 

Too much religious thinking PLUS a low sex drive on top of that -I would feel only makes the mind more difficult to penetrate. Her LOVE for you, an opening up of vulnerable communication on these very sensitive things, and a desire to truly UNDERSTAND YOU because of that LOVE -even though she is NOT feeling it like you ....I see as your only hope .

Persosnally, I don't feel you should have to lower your expectations, it would be much easier, having been on both sides of this (prudish thinker vs High driver) for her to come your way and GIVE as much as YOU GIVE in the bedroom, at the very least, this is fair, this is loving, she needs to come to this place.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Simple Amorous - That's a very nice post. But specifically HOW can he get his wife to come around. That's really the point of the thread. HOW do you get a passive woman to get hot for you? Because telling him he deserves hot sex does nothing but make the guy (and any guy feeling that way) feel like he's getting ripped off in his marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You are exactly the way my wife and i were before things blew up AND OUR SEXLESS PERIOD (Two years now) started.
> 
> She is not that in to you, she holds resentments sooner or later you may be sexless too. Those resentments have been piling up since your wedding day. That;s why the sex is lame youare not worth her energy.
> 
> ...


Can you give more details, it would help. What made your wife change her tune?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

seeking sanity said:


> Simple Amorous - That's a very nice post. But specifically HOW can he get his wife to come around. That's really the point of the thread. HOW do you get a passive woman to get hot for you? Because telling him he deserves hot sex does nothing but make the guy (and any guy feeling that way) feel like he's getting ripped off in his marriage.


As difficult as it is, you have to get to the root or cause of the passivity if you want to turn it around. Sometimes the root are things the husband can address within himself or within the relationship, sometimes the root are things the wife must address within herself or within the relationship. Most likely, it is a combination of both.

A wife must have an epiphany and a desire to want to turn from passive to active - but this is something that comes from within her. It can be the result of some kind of stimulus - sometimes from something that happens within her (like SimplyAmorous hormonal surge when she hit her 40's or a woman who finds she craves more intimacy out of her husband and relationship and starts to actively search for solutions - that is what happened to me). Sometimes it can be a result of things that happen outside of her - such as actions that her husband does.

In any case, a husband can create the kind of environment that would foster this kind of development in his wife. Think back to a time when your wife was more sexual with you. What is different between then and now - and not just things like kids and jobs - but in your actions toward each other. Too often, we loosen the tether we have on each other in our relationships and we let ourselves drift apart. But, one partner can try to 'pull' the other back to them.

A wife wants to be the desire of her husband's heart - the one he admires and wants above all others. What are the ways that SHE would need to be shown this by her husband (not the ways that he wants it to be shown to him or the ways that only he wants to show it)?

And as always in a marriage, there's always compromise, sometimes sacrifice, and sometimes acceptance of any given situation. Each person has to decide the mix that they can live with.

If it could be condensed down in to an easy solution, we would not have to be here, eh?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> Simple Amorous - That's a very nice post. But specifically HOW can he get his wife to come around. That's really the point of the thread. HOW do you get a passive woman to get hot for you? Because telling him he deserves hot sex does nothing but make the guy (and any guy feeling that way) feel like he's getting ripped off in his marriage.


Well *#1 *, I don't feel he needs to be vilified for FEELING the way he does -it is natural, normal, human and OK to speak what he spoke, it was honest. 

*#2. *IF it IS indeed *religious conditioning*, there you have something to point the finger at -some root that needs UPROOTED. Get some GOOD books on how to please a man, how to please a woman, written by Sex Therapists, not some Preacher somewhere. Read a little every night- together in each others arms. If there is no resentment in this marriage , I for the life of me, can not see why a spouse would be against such a thing. It can be a bonding experience, open her eyes to new things they never tried, she may come to learn "Wow, this sounds enjoyable"- lets try that , and once tried, seeing how HAPPY it makes him she may want to keep doing it -and wonder why she was so against it, both working for the better of the marriage, in honor of the last 20 yrs togehter ...doing out of love for each other . And if she has something she wants from him, he needs to step up for her too in those areas. Honor those love languages. His is likely "Physical touch", maybe hers is "Acts of Sevice", so help her around the house more with an enthusiastic attitude, with a smile. 

How about a book like this : Amazon.com: Sensual Love Secrets for Couples: The Four Freedoms of Body, Mind, Heart & Soul (9780738709659): Al Link, Pala Copeland: Books

Variety of good titles here: Amazon.com: sexual intimacy in marriage: Books

Amazon.com: The Sexually Confident Wife: Connecting with Your Husband Mind Body Heart Spirit (9780767926065): Shannon Ethridge: Books

A good attitude , I think Enchangment mentioned, can be life giving in this as well. Can we do this for our other half- because it is important to them. She is already "satisfied" -she gets hers, then her hands get tired after a few moments on him, where is her attitude ? It takes two caring for each other. 

My husband is my HERO, he went out of his way to please me when I exhausted every drop of his TEST . Was he feeling it lustfully ---NO!! I even got a little irratated about that ! But his love FOR ME *drove him*, he even told me he wants me to come to him, to never go off alone. ALL spouses should BE like this. For him, My pleasure IS HIS Pleasure, he would always say this to me. I know most men feel this way about thier wives, but not many wives feel this way. What a shame I say. 

Anything less is just not honorable, this is how I think.... so I speak. We have zero resentment issues. At this point, it is more about the *emotional connection *, not raging lust, that keeps us sexual, that mindset has now carried over, it will never die in me . Not enough marriages ever come to this place. But it is worth thriving to get there. 

*#3 **The Hormonal *.... many women here want to make a point that our hormones should not rule us, well .....good, I agree, this man has not cheated on his wife -they didn't ! Now from her end.... she is not feeling it -so in the spirit of equality, she should not be ruled by her "UNfeeling it" either and do what she knows will PLEAAASSSEEEEE her man. If it is good for one, why not the other. 

There is a poster on this forum, she was not awakened till AFTER menapouse, Threetimesalady -she has a thread in that Successful marriages section (she has a different name at the beginning) .... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...h-do-we-part-my-love-then-grab-me-you-go.html she is the most inpirational thing on here, she has shared she uses ESTRING . I think if you are not feeling it, for the health of your marriage, and for passion's sake, women would do well to look into taking something to boost that a little, if we can not engage our MINDS enough to bring this about(stirring our dopamine levels) , we ought to look into some hormones. I know I will be -if this drys up on me. 

So yeah..... If I was the man, this is how I would approach these things....communication, intimacy books, bonding, a goal to overcome wrong thinking, lavish her with what she wants as well as a wife, listen carefully, but express your deep desires too, get a sex game, do candles in the bathroom-bubble bath , take a romantic vacation , explore, try erotic massage.

I still feel romance is necessary (sorry Ian- though I LOVE his thoughts!) ... I just don't feel the man should have to "stuff it". That is wrong. My husband stuffed and when I learned of this, I was serioulsy MAD at him -then I cried for how he felt for too many years -as I didn't get it. I am not like the majority of women where you have to walk on egg shells with every word, lest they put you in the dog house & build a resentment wall. I am not sure how men deal with this. If I was a man, I would be a curse. I want the raw unbridled truth of how someone feels, I can deal with it, the good, the bad & the ugly. 


This is an inspirational peice all women should get a handle on... Threetimesalady wrote this..(after menopause mind you) ....


> Sex is desiring him every time you look at him. Needing him to fill that wonderful yearning deep inside you that needs filling & to die for. Sex is having breasts that ached to be touched & loved & you can not live without it. Sex is waking him up in the middle of the night as you need him & want him & then you find that he wants you just as much & you make love for an hour & get up & have coffee & wonder where the years have gone. Sex is finding the thrill after years of a man that can still make you scream & turn you to mush. Sex is turning him into a crazy man who wants you more than his own life.
> 
> Now. Love is being able to see some fault in your lover but shutting your mouth for the good of a marriage. Love is having to give & take in a marriage. Learning where to stop an argument when it is not important to win. Winning sometimes can be losing. Love is being able to find in that precious other the boy in the man that you fell in love when you 1st married. Love is being able to go to the sexiest side of you & turn that man into mush after all these years. Love is being able to hear from your lover that if you die first he will follow you as he cannot live without you . Love is the sunshine in the morning when it is cloudy out but seeing him next to you makes your world. Love is being able to say screwing & not being embarrassed plus any other really dirty word in the bedroom as he loves it. The dirtier the better as we all know that ladies do not talk dirty with those wonderful words but we also know as ladies that when we enter our bedroom to our precious that we leave the lady at the door. We then turn into his sex siren. As hot & as sensual as can be. And then we all know that when we leave that bedroom we again pick up the lady. All us ladies must have the two faces of Eve. This makes for a very very fullfilling marriage, full of intimacy and Love. A man would never stray if he had this.


Is that not the attitude we all need to catch -for our men??


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Can you give more details, it would help. What made your wife change her tune?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being a model husband (Not too hard as I was good before apart from 1 or 2 flaws)
Giving her space (Been two years of change in place)
Then pointing out that the last two years were less than ideal and that we won't go through that ever again one way or another. (Put my foot down)
I'm not happy, she's not fully happy at last talk. It's all the sexlessness stress. I sensed the same old crap and decided to take action!

I wrote her a letter, dated it and read it to her basically that enough is enough (in a nice way) I also told her we are either getting closer or farther apart up to divorce. That we are done with the status-quo.

Told her my first decision point (Year 2) didn't go well and that I had another in the future and I hoped it would go much better.

So far so good. Seems like a switch flipped in her. Originally she flipped of emotions for me two years ago. Her words along with he ILYBNILWYA speech. She also said it would just take time...well times up. The last two years we improved our marriage but the mental torture of a sexless existence was grueling on me personally. Yet I still thrived and kept it in most of that time frame. Allowing time to heal.

Still not there yet all the way but I see the light now.

I think she never thought I'd push it potentially to divorce.. I made her face reality. I really think she was just too busy to deal with it head on myself. Thinking that I'd always be there.
She knows I'm serious. I've taken the high road for two years straight..I'm done. Nothing personal at all because i KNOW I did my best over two years AND was in no way so bad that this should have ever happened! I'm a great husband and always treated her like gold she knows she has a good thing.

In a way I'm glad it did happen. I think our marriage will be much stronger for going through this.

I had to give her a wake up call like she did me two years ago.

Monthly talks about us until A) Both of us fully happy or B)Divorced no in-between. I'm not etting his 'sexless" experiment drag out like so many others.

I love her like crazy but will become single if needed. It's really now a path of least resistance for her. Its in her court now. Signs are she's going the happy route 

We get along great... it's just the sex thing. it's dumb. i don't have time or patience to let this drag on. I guess I manned up! I think I was too nice before the whole thing blindsided me.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have to disagree with you. There is no resentment, but there does seem to be a lack of imagination. The biggest obstacle in me having a conversation about this is that I am afraid that once she hears how I am feeling she will feel guilt over not being the wife that she should have been. There are also other factors and fears that I have over not having this conversation with her, but I guarantee you that it is not resentment that is a factor here.



How do you know for sure? It's all the "little" things then wham-o


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Trying - I am all for commitment and staying the course. But I notice that the success stories are from spouses who decide that leaving is a viable alternative in an untenable situation. It is a frightening prospect but it has to be on the table. If leaving were not in the mix, we do what is all too human, stop trying.
> 
> I think you are doing the right thing you did everything you could to make things right and now you are at the tipping point. It is important that at this critical time, she may test your resolve and you need to prepare yourself to separate if she does not move ahead. Sometimes a little shock and awe is needed. . Just sayin'
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I just made up my mind I wasn't going to let this continue any longer than two years. It gets really frustrating when the talks last couple six months in-between are the same old re-hash about "feelings" and the past.

It's like she didn't know how to move forward.

I already am at the point that I'm NOT afraid to lose her. If I want a roommate basically I'll live with a guy.

I adore my wife, She is my one true love. If I leave her it will be to make her happier and that's all. I'll always love her.

I guess it's all knowing I gave it my absolute best. No regrets.
She married a good guy but everyone has their limit. Mine was two years.

I won't accept an unhappy marriage anymore.

BTW it won't be separation it'll straight to divorce.
Separation is only for those who can't communicate. We can communicate and EVERYTHING else is great. It's up to her. Happy marriage or divorce

Us men are human too not some animal you can control and abuse.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Just take her and have your way with her the next time you are in bed.

Take her by surprise


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well *#1 *, I don't feel he needs to be vilified for FEELING the way he does -it is natural, normal, human and OK to speak what he spoke, it was honest.
> 
> *#2. *IF it IS indeed *religious conditioning*, there you have something to point the finger at -some root that needs UPROOTED. Get some GOOD books on how to please a man, how to please a woman, written by Sex Therapists, not some Preacher somewhere. Read a little every night- together in each others arms. If there is no resentment in this marriage , I for the life of me, can not see why a spouse would be against such a thing. It can be a bonding experience, open her eyes to new things they never tried, she may come to learn "Wow, this sounds enjoyable"- lets try that , and once tried, seeing how HAPPY it makes him she may want to keep doing it -and wonder why she was so against it, both working for the better of the marriage, in honor of the last 20 yrs togehter ...doing out of love for each other . And if she has something she wants from him, he needs to step up for her too in those areas. Honor those love languages. His is likely "Physical touch", maybe hers is "Acts of Sevice", so help her around the house more with an enthusiastic attitude, with a smile.
> 
> ...


SimplyAmourous, you have given me some of the best advice and comments that I have read so far. After reading everyone's comments and advice (ignoring those who are just being confrontational wanting to lay blame on one party or the other), this is my plan:

The next time we are going to have sex I am going to have a conversation with my wife. I am first going to ask her if there is anything that she feels in lacking in our lovemaking. I know that at first she will say that our lovemaking is good, she has before when I have asked and I just dropped it at that. This time I will press a little harder to try and find out if there is anything that I am doing wrong. After that I am going to tell her how I feel and what I am wanting and needing out of our sexual life. Hopefully all will go well and things will improve. If not, then there really won't be much of a change in the way things are now. If the discussion does not go well, then I will have to decide what to do at that point. Probably if conversation and discussion does not lead to greater satisfaction and a change in our love life, then professional counseling may be in order.

Thank you all for your comments. At times when I was reading some of the comments, I was almost brought to tears from all of the compassion and understanding some of you have had for my problem.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Joe,

And realize that it may be something totally outside lovemaking that she may need in order for her to be more in to the lovemaking. She may need more of an emotional connection with you to want to do that lovemaking. Do you think she is getting that from you?

Here's something for you to read from the marriagebuilders.com site that may also give you some food for thought: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Men always think women are such complex creatures, but we really just often want the simple daily attention - the conversations, the affection - of our husbands to help feed our emotional connection to him.

God Bless.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Even though Ian is a little BRASH on here , I have to agree with most of what he speaks, though I don't feel Romance is worthless , I know it keeps me happy & I would be pi**ed if my husband threw that out.


Correction: I don't feel Romance is worthless, at all -- it's as essential to female sexual psychology as porn is to male sexual psychology. My wife is more into "supernatural romance" (the Sookie Stackhouse novels, specifically) but as long as she realizes that I'm never going to be an immortal, blood-sucking superman with a tanning problem, and I recognize that she's never going to be a porn star, we get along famously. 

And believe it or not, I'm a hopeless romantic at heart. I don't eschew romance . . . I just want it to be understood properly.


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## gonefishin (Oct 7, 2011)

The best way to handle this is tell her you need to discuss something. Do not do this in the bedroom. If she likes wine buy a nice bottle and have a conversation over a glass of wine.

You have been married for 20 years. If you can not discuss sex, you have a big problem. Tell her you love her and you want her to be happy. Then, ask her point blank if she is happy with her sex life. If she says no, ask her what you can do to improve the situation. Let her control this conversation. 

If she says yes, then you need to start talking. Let her know you are not happy. She may think your perfectly satisfied.

People have been brainwashed over the years regarding sex and religion. If I were you, I would push all the religious stuff aside. This is your marriage not her churches.:smthumbup:

Good luck


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have to disagree with you. There is no resentment, but there does seem to be a lack of imagination. The biggest obstacle in me having a conversation about this is that I am afraid that once she hears how I am feeling she will feel guilt over not being the wife that she should have been. There are also other factors and fears that I have over not having this conversation with her, but I guarantee you that it is not resentment that is a factor here.


I was also thinking that the resentment explanation might be just too simple, considering that you said that she does really seem to want you to know that she is enjoying sex. She wants you to feel appreciated.

We do, however, quickly fall into firm, regimented communication patterns. Its entirely possible that maybe you've just missed the triggers that would open her up to be more explorative. Maybe she doesn't even know what they are.

My dad was a pretty shallow guy. Every lecture from him when I was a kid was about getting a woman to put out. But he did have one or two good ideas that have helped me, even though I try to be nothing like him.

The key, he said, is to never let your wife feel like sex is your intended goal. Its subtle, but 'she' has to feel like 'she' is your goal, and sex is only a byproduct. And if 'she' is your goal, it becomes possible that she'll open herself up to new patterns of thinking when it comes to sex.

What I'm suggesting is that, through no fault of your own, you may have missed some key needs she has, early in the relationship. We all do. Be willing to think outside the box. Make 'her' the goal for a while, and don't even focus on the sex until you've begun to help her find out what these needs may be. For my wife, one of those 'openers' is strong passion while she is doing something for me, like cooking a great meal. I found out that this was something she daydreamed about as a younger woman. Being swept off her feet while working around the house. She really wants to feel appreciated. I would often approach her from behind, kissing passionately, stealing a feel, focusing on how incredible she is. 

She was incredibly insecure about her body, so when we were along, away from the bedroom, I spent so much time undressing an area, telling her how beautiful she was as I massaged it with oils. I assured her that I wanted her to feel safe and secure in telling me about her insecurities, and her secret desires. So much of this was just about assuring her that I was crazy about her, appreciated her, and if I happened to let it slip that I wanted to do this, or that to her body, or loved the expression on her face when we did that, she began to be much more open. I don't think she has ever felt like sex was the goal. It was just something we explored together, looking for new ways to one up each other. My focus was on her, on making her feel like a seductive goddess.

I'm just hoping that there may be some triggers within your wife. Some that the two of you maybe just overlooked because of the assumptions you brought into the marriage. To many people focus on the mistaken belief that 90% of sex is in the bed. The truth is that this should be a small portion, and decided well in advance before getting there. These triggers tend to really challenge her to look for more than just making you feel appreciated. They can touch on her desire to explore, making her feel like you've given her a safe and trusting environment.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> well you know your solution (have an open and honest talk) and are just too afraid of implementing it.
> 
> so either, be bored/miserable or ask for what you what


:iagree: she wont know unless yo tell her.


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## Frosty (Aug 23, 2011)

The problem a lot of marriages have is that one spouse wants the other to WANT to do what they need rather than be told and it become a chore.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm going to remind my mother-in-law of that next time she turns down the heat -- she's in the throes of menopause.
> 
> "Mimi, you're just letting your baser nature rule you. Get over it!"
> 
> I'm sure it will go over splendidly.


WTF!!! How the hell can you compare the desire to cheat with hormonal change in a female body!!!! Everyone has the capacity to cheat but not everyone can give birth!! You are missing the point completely?!?!?

Enchantment seems to have the best advice for you Joe. First and foremost you have to communicate with w. Although she says she is "satisfied", sadly that is what we are taught to say....you are the best I ever had...wow I didn't think I could feel that way! 

It does sound like w has issues with sex but sad to say men to seem to think that the lack of enthusiasm has anything to do with what they are... or are not doing. It sounds like she is actually not happy or satisfied but knows that it is not appropriate for her to say otherwise. She said that she can orgasm easier on top... Get her there. Yes it's her problem but if you want her to be more enthusiastic....ya gotta lead her there in a way that she won't feel used or dirty but rather wanting to have fun together. I say that because it sounds like she is just going through the motions of faking orgasm with oral sex and just letting you then orgasm. I could be wrong but after 17 years of marriage myself, I personally would not want to have sex that often either if I wasn't truly getting satisfied.

Good luck and HAVE FUN with her!!!!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

JoeCamel said:


> Once again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I'm pretty sure that she knew what to do in that position since that is the only way we have ever done it in the past, but it is possible that she just didn't have a clue. Regardless, I would have gone for a little manual stimulation instead of her hands being by her side. The point is that I would love to at least have some touching and sensuality from her. It all really feels one sided. She knows what I like because I know on several occasions I have told her that I like oral sex just as much as she does.


Joe, have you tried sensually taking her hand and placing it on you? I have to agree with you, there is no question in my mind that w loves you and things are fine in all other aspects of your marriage, it's purely the physical aspect of sex. I have to admit although I can be pretty freaky with my h, I get a little upset if he just places his junk in my face EXPECTING me to do stuff. Maybe try sensual messages both for her and you and ease into it.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> As difficult as it is, you have to get to the root or cause of the passivity if you want to turn it around. Sometimes the root are things the husband can address within himself or within the relationship, sometimes the root are things the wife must address within herself or within the relationship. Most likely, it is a combination of both.
> 
> A wife must have an epiphany and a desire to want to turn from passive to active - but this is something that comes from within her. It can be the result of some kind of stimulus - sometimes from something that happens within her (like SimplyAmorous hormonal surge when she hit her 40's or a woman who finds she craves more intimacy out of her husband and relationship and starts to actively search for solutions - that is what happened to me). Sometimes it can be a result of things that happen outside of her - such as actions that her husband does.
> 
> ...


Word of great wisdom!!!! Definitely something all of us need to think about!!:iagree:


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Correction: I don't feel Romance is worthless, at all -- it's as essential to female sexual psychology as porn is to male sexual psychology. My wife is more into "supernatural romance" (the Sookie Stackhouse novels, specifically) but as long as she realizes that I'm never going to be an immortal, blood-sucking superman with a tanning problem, and I recognize that she's never going to be a porn star, we get along famously.
> 
> And believe it or not, I'm a hopeless romantic at heart. I don't eschew romance . . . I just want it to be understood properly.


Sorry Joe for completely getting off topic but...Thank you Ian for clarifying that I was starting to get a little confused/upset about your stance on things!!!! :smthumbup:


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Joe, just catching up on this thread... it seems that you have been a total "nice guy" in bed, always putting her needs above your own, selfless and a pleaser. In reality, as you are expressing here you are not selfless and that is good... but she has 20 years of conditioning, both from the way it always has been plus with her religious beliefs. It seems to me that by doing more than her duty she is sinning, by allowing herself to orgasm is probably already close to crossing the line... It seems like she needs to somehow break that conditioning and accept that she is allowed to explore sex within a marriage - perhaps there is a religious marriage counselor in your community that is open to talking about sexuality, to help her get past her long time hangups (if that is what this really is about) and also to coach you as to what to do to help her. Good luck, if you have some faith in each other I know that your relationship can improve and you will get more fulfillment from it!


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

Start by talking about it outside the bedroom, during a neutral relaxed time. Don't blame, don't criticize, and don't make it into a problem. Talk about what you want. 

Something like, "You have gotten so sexy to me over the years, I really want to celebrate that by finding new and exciting ways to experience pleasure together.", Then have some ideas in mind to share with her. It's not about the orgasm, it's about the feelings and closeness of touching and sharing each other, otherwise, you would be content just orgasming the same old way. Keep that in mind when you are talking to her.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

JoeCamel said:


> My wife and I have been married for 20 years and I would say that we have a very good marriage. Here is the problem - when we first got together she told me up front that the only way for her to be able to orgasm is either if she is on top or by oral stimulation. That was fine with me and I had no problem with that. The first problem is that she is not a very sexual person so we probably don't have sex more often than once or twice a month. That being said, when we do have sex, since it has been so long, I tend to ejaculate very quickly. To counter that, I usually stimulate her orally until she orgasms and then it is my turn. All would be well and good except that I really would like to be stimulated orally myself or at least manually, but my wife will not give oral sex. She says that she has to really be in the mood for it for her to be able to give me oral sex. In the last 20 years she has given me oral sex 3 times. So as a result our sex life is like this: we have foreplay for a while with me doing most of it, I stimulate her orally until she orgasms, we go to the missionary position until I orgasm and that is it. It has been the same routine for 20 years.
> 
> I would even forget about the oral sex altogether if she would act more sexy. When we have sex, I try to stimulate her as much as possible by touching, rubbing and kissing, and I know she really enjoys it, however she fails to reciprocate. When we start out she does rub and fondle my penis, but this doesn't last long and she just stops. After she has her orgasm, I would love for her to touch, rub, and fondle me, but it just doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


It happens all the time...your wife doesn't know how to enjoy it. She's just going through the motions, plain and simple.

When I was about 23, I taught myself what to do, how to do it and how to have great s*x EVERY time. Up until that point, sure it felt OK, but sex was just something I did (and I really didn't know what I was doing) witouth understanding what the big fuss was about. Truth be told, I spent more time pleasuring myself prior to then than anything else, because I used to assume that's all there was. 

She needs to learn this one way or another, so either teach her what you want, or see a sex therapist, or both.


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## JoeCamel (Oct 7, 2011)

It has been a long time since I last posted, but I am happy to report that we finally did have "the talk". I think that we both learned a lot from our conversation. We have both agreed to having a little more imagination in the bedroom and to try new things.

I learned that although she enjoys the oral sex that I perform on her, I sometimes get a little over zealous and that has caused some physical discomfort for her.

She has learned that she really is not being as sensual with me as I would like, although in her mind she though that she was.

We have both agreed to more foreplay of the hugging, touching, rubbing and kissing variety to help her become more aroused. Much to my surprise, she is even considering using some sex toys during our lovemaking sessions.

I have agreed to be the initiator of sex more often. I never did before because she just doesn't have as much of a sex drive as I do, but I promised not to be hurt when she says no.

I made her promise not to have sex with me just because I want it. I don't want it to become a chore or some task that she has to complete for me. And here is where she really surprised me. She said "I promise, but sometimes I just want to give you a gift", meaning, just lay back and enjoy while I give you pleasure.

All is all I feel very good about the way things are headed. I will report back and let you know how things are going.

Thanks to everyone for all of your comments and suggestions.


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## husband1987 (Dec 13, 2011)

If she is like my wife. She will tell you to stop giving her oral if you expect it back because it isn't going to happen. Also, don't try and flaunt your penis like candy for her because mine will just gag. 

I've read the books, and basically, IMO, if you don't marry a kinky girl than forget having a crazy sex life. Sex will never be what you want despite slight improvements. Makes me wonder why I broke up with my ex. Sometimes I think mentally crazy and kinky is better than sane and not kinky.


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## beentheredonethat_ (Jan 31, 2016)

IanIronwood said:


> Read where? And who wrote it?
> 
> Porn doesn't do that any more than reading romance novels decreases a woman's satisfaction with the real thing and causes unrealistic expectations.
> 
> ...


Porn absolutely does cause or increase sexual dysfunction in men and women. Read about it. There are tons of legit resources online, just start with Google. It can corrected however it has to be eliminated until the issues/dysfunctions are present.


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