# think I am going mad - anyone else had this?



## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I have posted bits and pieces of my story up - 

here's another version. 

Last October my H turned 40.

I organised a big party for him. He said that no one had ever done that before - not for his 18th not for his 21st. I felt happy to organise it.

He was weird about inviting his work colleagues and made up a strange story.

The following weekend we had an argument 

I asked him if he loved me - he said "I don't know"

I asked him if there was someone else he said "I don't know" 

I urged him to see a doctor and a counsellor.

The following weekend he sat down opposite me and told me that he didn't love me and that he hadn't loved me for 10 years.

He said that he was fine - he wasn't having a psychotic attack - (there is a history of mental illness in his family) 
but that he had been in denial and that he had stayed with me because he 'didn't want to hurt me'

He also said that the counsellor he saw suggested that we seek MC - but he said he thought it was hopeless. 

I told him to leave. The entire converstion lasted around 5 minutes.

I stayed at my sisters that night. He moved out the next day.

My kids (8 & 10) were devastated - they had never even seen us fight. 

He stayed away for a few months. Came back and forwards - I have read posts on this forum - those of you who have been there will know the deal. 

He told me he was confused - and unhappy - needed some time to work things out.

I didn't eat or sleep for about two months. Was in shock and physical pain most of the time. 

When I saw him the pain went away. That pure, that simple. 

Sometime (March maybe? he came back) 

He said I am coming back - not for you - not for the kids but for me - it is what I want - "I have always loved you".

By June he was gone again.

This time he has rented a house, bought furniture, had the phone connected. He has told the kids (but not me) that he doesn't think he is ever coming back. 

I don't think he is either. 

He is infatuated with a younger work colleague.

He wants to start a relationship with her (maybe he already has?) but the idea of an affair is morally distateful.

He'd rather destroy the entire marriage first.

That's more honourable.


I am lucky 
I have a good job 
My kids are wonderful, smart, perceptive little people.
I know that I will get through this.


I feel like I am going mad because I am starting to feel okay again - 

But it is a mad sort of okay

Euphoric almost - demented.

Up until now I have gone out of my way not to see my H. It hurts too much.

I have had severe panic attacks just sitting at my computer because I think there may be an email waiting for me.

But now - in my demented state I am wondering what it would be like to just accept it -

and act as though I am cool, fine, happy even.

I don't know whether this is a fantasy - or it is really where I want to be anyway.....

I have been very stressed and am wondering if it is my brain giving me a break from it all.

I have a lot of SH** to sort out - 

But all weekend I have been sewing clothes for myself and thinking I look pretty good in them.

It is like I just can't stand it anymore and have escaped. 

Has anyone else had this sort of madness?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You are working to some sort of acceptance. Teetering on it in fact. This crap that we've been going through is all consuming. 

There was a point where I'd feel lucky to have a few minutes where I didn't think about him and our marriage. Going over and over things. Insignificant things at one point in my life...things that I would have never recognized in my "other" life. 

Try writing out the things that you need to sort out. Organize your thoughts on paper. It really does help. Even if you have no conclusion to these thoughts.

Escaping from the madness is still good. The person that posts here is an intelligent, sane, good woman. She is just going through an extremely awful time. Nothing that she did but circumstances beyond her control. She will win in the end. I just know that you will. Good people win in the long run. You are good.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks CW
it is your conviction and your clarity I love
and I do know that you know what I am feeling

my H and the kids are a long way away at the moment - visiting my H's dad. having the family holiday without me.

when I took my kids to the airport a few days ago I cried all the way there, I cried all through a conversation with airport staff about who was picking them up at the other end - I cried as I stood looking at the plane take off, I cried all the way home...

and now no tears.

I know that I have to get myseelf into gear again work out what 'needs to be done'

I know that he WON'T do it

What is really scary for me as well is that I have been researching passive agressive behaviour 

I am alarmed

for some reason I have heard the term passive agressive for years - but never understood the 'agressive' part....


Now I understand why even throughout all of this I have this image of him as calm, reasonable, 'together'......

that's because he is completley practicised at this 

I 'look' hysterical because I am actually registering some real emotion....

honestly it scares me to think of how 'few' times throughout this whole ordeal he was REAL 

I can also see how this behaviour works to his advantage 

he applies pressure through 'not acting' 

waiting for me to sort it out..

I had been working on the assumption that the reason that he didn't want to sort things out was because he felt gulity and couldn't face what he is doing

now I think it is his way of getting things done.

so so scary

just absorbing all of this -

no calm feelings for me today.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Keep sorting. My H would throw out the "I am no longer in love with you." But was unwilling to do anything about it until I suggested MC. I gave him phone number and he waited and waited. I ended up saying "are you gonna call?" 

My H threw out the "I want to divorce" in March. I waited until May....I couldn't stand it anymore. "When, how?" I asked....I can't take the waiting. You want to divorce but do nothing. I ended up initiating the when. I still told him that I wouldn't file. 

He is just now filing. He may end up taking his time to get the documents and details done. We will need to meet with the attorney together. 

They are just going with whatever they feel like. Don't care about others (family). Not in the REAL sense.

It's sad to see your kids go off for what originally should have been a family holiday. You will have grieving points along the way. I still do. I am even preparing for Christmas!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Keep sorting. My H would throw out the "I am no longer in love with you." But was unwilling to do anything about it until I suggested MC. I gave him phone number and he waited and waited. I ended up saying "are you gonna call?"
> 
> My H threw out the "I want to divorce" in March. I waited until May....I couldn't stand it anymore. "When, how?" I asked....I can't take the waiting. You want to divorce but do nothing. I ended up initiating the when. I still told him that I wouldn't file.
> 
> ...


CW I was more like you the first time he left.

I saw the bank manager, estate agent, called the government agencies ...got things going.

I wanted it sorted more than I wanted anything else 

Looking back on it now I am amazed at how I swung into action.

No wonder my family kept on saying to me 
"you're doing really well" 

I didn't think that I was - but on reflection I was awesome!

This time round I am not so much dragging my heels as pondering what may be the best way forward and how I might be able to get what I want instead of just reacting to the impulsivness of his decisions....

At least that's what I think I am doing.

I am kind of stuck on the idea of wanting to keep the house. 

many have said "Sell the house" 

but I don't want to - I am not materialistic in the least (neither is my H for that matter) but it seems important to try and look after my financial security now that I'll be alone.

But how do you know what is right to do in these situations? 

It is so damn confusing.

And I am so so tired....

It is like this juggling act - or this cascading card game.

I decide I want to keep the house so I start looking for more work. I find more work which gives me a little more money - but it is not permanent. Because I am working more I am tired -
more stress and more pressure -

Not enough time/space/ to work things out....

And then my fears...

I admire the way that you are still able to talk to your H.

I am so scared and intimidated by mine most of the time - 

Scared of what?

I don't understand .....

The worst has kind of happened...

thank you so much for your calm sensible support 

it's true I can tell that you do care....

I am trying to focus on this idea that good does win in the end -

I know what you mean - I really do -


I have both my boys birthdays coming up and am perplexed about how to handle them...

I went through one last year when things were hideous -

What are you planning for Christmas???


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

They say during the first year to not make any major decisions. Sometimes you have to....no choice.

The house: This is the way I looked at whether to keep mine or not. Can you afford it without working yourself to death? What if something breaks (major) can you afford to fix it or buy another one? I wouldn't want to kill myself to keep a house. You can always start smaller or rent and move your way up. Plus, with you having 2 younger children....the expenses and time involved with keeping a house.

Also, for me the memories was a big one. I have this house...we both designed and built. Pictures everywhere. Our bed. Our this/that. I want a fresh start for me and our daughter. She is excited about the prospect of helping to find a new place and decorating it. 

Get a pad of paper write "pros" and "cons" regarding keeping or not keeping the house. It helps.

I'd imagine the first separation you were like "that's it" I gotta take care of things. When he came back you were very hopeful and elated that you got this second chance for your relationship. Then...months later he decided to RUN again. Heartbreaking..you thought you were trying to put the past behind you. He pulls the stunt. I'd imagine the old emotions came back along with NEW ones. "How could I let him do this to me again?" "I am a sucker...I fell for it." The emotional rollecoaster and you are trying to protect your kids from it as well. 

Regarding Christmas and other holidays. I am going to create me own special holiday traditions. I am sure that I will have my D either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. His family, which I am still close with...are leaving it open. They are inviting everyone still for Christmas dinner. They are leaving it up to my H and me. I am not sure what I will do. On one hand we get along that we could still spend the dinner together with the kids present. On the other hand...I don't really want to see him this first year after divorce. I am disgusted...him being all nice-nice and smiling. Me pretending how lovely things are....WHATEVER!! I'll cross the bridge when it comes I suppose.

You have the funnest birthday party ever for your boys! Don't include you husband...let him figure his life with the boys out. Don't expect anything from him and if he offers something for the boys...then be surprised. Let you H see and hear how much fun the boys had at their birthday. 

What an azz they are....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW Thank you !

Such sensible & sensitive advice - 

and reading it made me realise that I am still deferring to him in my mind....(will I never train myself out of this?????) 


e.g. what if he wants to cook pizza for the boys on their birthday (like he always does)

well that is exactly what he said no to isn't it????


I am going to bed now...I will scheme some more in the morning...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Good point. How do you get out of the habit of deferring to him? You just eventually do. He's not present and he doesn't make any of the daily decisions. He has no voice unless it's major matters with the kids. His choice is made. Let him have it!

I am telling you. He will get envious when you kids tell him how great their birthday was...or what happened here or there. It's good to let him envy you a bit. You are the main parent and get the perks! 

My H walked in on Sunday to my lovely lively house. He was so hesistant to go...incredible. He would have like nothing more than for me to say "go have a seat and watch the movie" with our son. I didn't. He went home alone and sick. His choice.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW I think you always remind me of something really valuable:

NO matter what 'they' are going through and no matter how much 'sympathy/empathy/concern/feelings of tenderness' they manage to inspire in us the main point is that they are IDIOTS and we are NOT. We have not lost our powers of reason and sense. THEY HAVE. THEY ARE BEREFT. NOT US

I love the fact that even though you are hurting and grieving you can still see this clearly.

And that you act accordingly. 

I'll make a tragic confession.

Part of me _still _feels "Sorry" for my H because he married, lived with had two kids with someone, who he never really LOVED. 

Part of me thinks - what an amazing man to try and make the marriage work even though he didn't really love me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I obviously have some rewiring work to be done.


Now on the birthdays etc - you are right once again!

I am fairly sure he's not making any practical plans towards making sure the boys birthdays are fun. 

The boys are very worried about this - where will they be?

Where will their party be?

Who will they invite?

usual kid stuff - my kids start planning their birthdays early....

I am going to plan both their birthdays while they are away - I would have done this anyway. He's never been a part of this stuff. Only does sport - but I guess that's pretty normal. 

I will let my H organise how he is going to see and celebrate his kids birthdays himself.

I won't offer anything.

Just to go back in time for a minute we had to go through my youngest son's birthday last year about a week or two into the separation.

I remember my H came over, mowed the lawn, cooked pizza, played with all the kids....it was horrible 

When I told him afterwards how very difficult I had found the day he said

"I'd like to think that _we _are the sort of parents who would always be together for their children's birthdays"

I looked at him like he was mad and said that that was the sort of assumption he might happily make if we were MARRIED!

But you can see how insidious this sort of comment is...

Makes him seem like HE is the one who has children's best interests at heart, that he is the one ADULT enough to put his feelings aside for his kids....

I think he was genuinely shocked when I said that all bets were off if we separated permanently.

But CW, 

sometimes I think I AM being childish. 

If I read through some of the posts that discuss children and separation and I wonder ....

what is best?

what sort of separated parent do I want to be????

none of these questions answered...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Exactly...not matter how much you feel like giving them empathy/sympathy. They evoked this on themselves. They never spoke up until it was too late, in their minds, and then we didn't get a chance.

Knortoh: You don't need to rewire at all! Not at all! You are a kind, compassionate person. You care about your family. You H is family. I do the same thing. I was depressed and selfish for years. I functioned ok with my fake face on...but it was difficult. I told him how I was "sorry." I told him how awful it must have been to live under these conditions and not knowing what to do about it. I REALLY did apologize and mean it. I ask for forgiveness. You know what he did.......he rolled his eyes. He thought I was trying to evoke some sort of emotion from him. 

I am willing to be that your H loves you now. Maybe not "in love." Staying 10 years with someone you don't love at all. Seriously....I doubt it. No matter what they say. I don't believe much of what my H says....alot of dramatic ramblings from a man that doesn't deal with his feelings and is working his life on a superficial level. Gimme a break! Can you really say that he was so sacrificial and his life was a living hell for 10 years. NO! I am sorry. I can't muster much sympathy. 

My friends catch me saying "poor H." They say "don't feel sorry for him. He's the one doing this...not you. Feel sorry for you!"

I got the WE statement..pre separation also. "I think WE are going to do just fine with our D. WE would never do anything to hurt our D." He would also say...during sex..."I can US doing this when we are divorced and unattached to any one else." Ya right buddy! The sex that we had during the last years was ALL initiated by me...and it sucked having sex with a cardboard box. haha

I think you need to give yourself a break. This first year will be many changes in our lives. Try not to plan too far in advance. Maybe one day you will celebrate birthdays together. For me...I can't do it. I am a bit angry as I feel he wants his cake and eat it to. Of course, with this anger, my kids don't get both parents at the same time. That is what divorce is...I need to preserve myself at this point. If it makes me feel better and I am not doing undue harm to my kids than I will take the course that makes me feel better. Without their MOM sane...what do they have left?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> I got the WE statement..pre separation also. "I think WE are going to do just fine with our D. WE would never do anything to hurt our D." He would also say...during sex..."I can US doing this when we are divorced and unattached to any one else." Ya right buddy! The sex that we had during the last years was ALL initiated by me...and it sucked having sex with a cardboard box. haha


Goodness CW - what is wrong with these guys???????

Is it that we are so stable, constant, reliable 'there' for them that they can't even imagine that we won't be there for 'sex' after they have left us?????

Well my H has proved he thought it was hunky dory to have sex with me after he'd left me emotionally.............

Then when he came back and he was talking about leaving he said that one of the bad things about him leaving was that 

I wouldn't get to have sex anymore........

as though he was providing a service to me 

what is the combination of lack of logic and lack of compassion that allows these guys to think these thoughts and think that it is okay to share them?????????????????????????????????

I will never understand. 

one day I will be somewhere that I don't care anymore 

PS am taking your advice and having a 'break' - mental break from my problems


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Good deal knortoh: You take that break! Well deserved.

It struck me funny how he was soooo concerned how you wouldn't get to have sex anymore! How freaking considerate...

My H called...long story. He was stressed with landlord problems. The landlord is a druggie and has been entering his condo eating/drinking H's food. The landlord said he's sorry and it won't happen again. Well it did today.

My H changed the locks and fears the landlord will be angry regarding that. My H doesn't want my D around if the landlord goes crazy. So my H is bringing over our D to my house for the rest of the week. OK. I talk to him and give suggestions on how to approach the landlord and talk calmly. I ask if my H is "ok." He says..."everthing is just going wrong." I told him "I am sorry that things are going so rough." 

We go to hang up and guess what he says..."ok...I LOVE YOU."

This is the first time in many months (3-6 months) that he ended a phone call willingly saying I love you." A Freudian slip probably. Does it give me hope? No. I thought it was funny. He is seeking the same comfort that he always had....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

OH CW,

"I love you"

and thinsg aren't going too good! 

he is one messed up dude. 

WTF did he think was going to be RIGHT? 

This sounds so much like what my H was like the first time he left.

He was living in a place sharing with a guy and he used to come over and complain how dirty it was and I just used to look at him and laugh and he would just look back at me completely wounded that I wasn't offering any sympathy.

Then one day he rang me to ask me what he should wear to work - really . 

Then I remember after he left the second time he came to mind the kids and when I left the house said 

"see you darling" 

I was devastated - and I cried all the way to work. 

Meanwhile I think my 'break' is over.

J and the kids have come back from their holiday - and although the kids aren't back with me till next week I felt my stress levels rising the minute I knew they were back.

I know that he is running out of credit and something needs to be resolved with our finances - I was interested to read in your post that you guys still have joint finances - same here 

yes that trust!

in my case it is not exactly misplaced but my H is poor at money management - or at least has been poor and careless as part of his bad behaviour over the last while 

I'd just like to keep the staus quo for as long as I can - 

just to give me a bit more time to start feeling better etc.

but I need to prepare myself for the fact that he may well begin to really pressure me to sell house.

I had a long session with my counsellor today and she just says 
" I am sorry but you have a boy there"

CW - I really don't think my H is coming back at all.

I think his whole leaving thing is too deep and has been too long developing -

I don't think he'll find an 'easier' or 'happier' relationship especially over the long term but I don't think he'll ever want to come back to me -

not the least because he won't want to risk hurting me and the boys again....

it still hurts so so much


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh:

I know it hurts like heck! I have a sliver of hope...a tiny sliver. I will be divorced and still have a tiny sliver.

I will still have fun and handle my life. I will still go out with a hunky guy, if he looks like Brad Pitt! I will get on with my life. There are NO guarantees that anything will come out of my sliver of hope. I can't/won't wait around for 2 years hoping my husband will "get it."

You will learn to get on with yours as well. You have less hope as your H has come back once and left again. Heartbreaking. Plus, the fact that he's having an affair won't send him home running. I bet the affair end up bottoming out in less than 6 months. Really, they don't usually last long. 

In the meantime, what are you doing to occupy yourself with the boys are gone? Do you have any close girlfriends?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW 
on HOPE:
I think I wrote this somewhere on another post - but I read recently that in Spanish the word for waiting is the same as the word for hope....

And I relate to your metaphor a sliver - as though it is light -

Although yours is thin I think it is bright and I sincerely hope that it is given the chance to shine again.....

Either way it is a bit like love we don't have a whole lot of choice here - I think hope, love have a life of their own - 

I admire the conviction that you have with choosing to move on in the ways you _can_ control...

And I am always back to my mum on that one 

"you are in control of you" 


I think what I am finding pretty tricky at the moment is just the on-going stress 

I have always (maybe mistakenly) believed that my H and shared a 'easy going' 'light' take on life.

I have not tried to intervene too much with what the 'universe' seems to be telling me .....

I don't do things if they seem too 'hard'

I am struggling to accomodate my current circumstances in the 'trust the universe' ethos. 

I am not religious in the traditional sense of the word (although I pray a great deal!) 

but I guess what I am talking about is akin to trusting in GOD....

so it's really just about that controlling what you can and letting go of what you can't...

right now I am still in the quagmire of what working out what I can and can't control....what I can and can't plan for .....

it sucks when you have to reasses your whole life philosophy as well as put up with your husband leaving you............

learning so much painful stuff 

sorry for such a deep post - just woke up feeling like this


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Letting go or as I say "giving it to God." Same message.

It's a healthy way of controlling what you can't.

I learned many lessons of this with my 20 year old. He was my difficult child to raise. 

Now I have another boy to "let go." ha

This isn't the first crisis of this magnitude in my life. I had one in childhood. It tooks me years to come to terms with it. I fought it tooth and nail. I learned to forgive and let go.

This isn't a new lesson for me, but one that I hadn't recognized until lately. 

I pray for peace for myself....every day. This is what I feel. I was and still pray for my husband and our relationship but he has free will. God give him that...a choice. 

However, I also have free will. When I prayed for peace...it slowly came over me. I chose it. 

Knortoh: I think this is becoming our own blog..the Knortoh CorpusWife SHOW! haha


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Letting go or as I say "giving it to God." Same message.
> 
> It's a healthy way of controlling what you can't.
> 
> ...


CW

Always look forward to reading your posts and the dialogue that we have
think it would make a nice book.

It is my 10th wedding anniversary today and the sky is the same beautiful blue as when we married....

I sensed that there was a story there with your son - but I didn't know that you also had experienced suffering as a child....

I love the idea that you pray for peace

It's the lightness that comes with letting go that I long for -

It's having a light touch on things that I long for...

Seems so incongruent with the practical worries that I have -

that is where I am getting caught up...

but I am reminded of a lovely quote by Simone Weil as I write this ....

I am at work now and can't find it but will send it your way tonight...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Difficult day...memories of better times when your heart was light.

Now it's heavy.

I will pray for your peace. You deserve it and it will come albeit slowly.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW thank you for praying for me I feel blessed 

I really need those prayers right now 


from Simone 

"If I light an electric torch at night out of doors I don't judge its power by looking at the bulb, but by seeing how many objects it lights up. The brightness of a source of light is appreaciated by the illumination it projects upon non-luminous objects. The value of a religious or more generally a spiritual way of life is appreaciated by the amount of illumination thrown upon things of this world"

I am not sure why I felt compelled to share this with you - 
but hope you like it all the same

have just hung up the phone after talking to my kids - 

I feel so awkward talking to them 

I don't want to talk to them - I want to be with them

my youngest said that he cried himself to sleep every night because he missed me so much 

what does my H think when he sees this? 

I still can't believe that he can square doing this to the kids with himself

so much unlike the person who I believed him to be

why is there this assumption that if someone leaves it is

'ultimately all for the best''

"unavoidable"

"just what he had to do"

I think its fair that I learn the lessons in life - but I can't see how what the kids are going through is fair -

I know I am ranting 

so hard to let go when this is in the mix...

am wondering what my peace will look like/feel like/ ????

do I just have to trust that he loves them and that he really does have their best interests at heart?

that he is just doing what he has to do?

that it will all be okay?

don't know anymore

thanks for listening


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I hope you all know what great comfort I find in these posts and threads. I do not have anyone in my life that can understand the emotional rollercoaster ride so I read your words. 
I hope we all find peace. Thank you.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren said:


> I hope you all know what great comfort I find in these posts and threads. I do not have anyone in my life that can understand the emotional rollercoaster ride so I read your words.
> I hope we all find peace. Thank you.



Wren,
we are a community of sorts and somehow we have 'found' eachother. it really helps me too.
I am not sure what you are going through but my thoughts are with you.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for sharing Simone....so true. 

I know about talking to to the kids. My D forgets who she is supposed to be with....she will call me after school to tell me she is staying late. I have to tell her..."your dad is picking you up remember." Bless her heart. 

It's good that your H still wants a relationship with your boys. Some leave and make a completely new life...the wipe the others out. Just allow your H to have whatever relationship that he will have with your boys. The boys will make their own decision what kind of parent he was growing up.

You will forge your relationship with them as well. They will see you as a strong woman that made it through a difficult time...with grace and dignity. That's important for them to see this...as we all know we faces challenges in life. No one is immune. 

Don't worry about the lessons for now. You won't know until much later what they are...Rest assured you are learning them.

Even though I may seem to have things figured out as to why my husband ran away. I will never know for sure. He doesn't know either. He is learning his own lessons. He'll figure out what they are later down the road as well.

What have you been doing for yourself while your boys are away?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpus my therapy is sewing - so I have been making clothes, listening to music, swimming and lifting heavy weights at the gym...
not a bad life !

I don't have a lot of close friends 

and only one who has any real sense of what I am going through

I am finding it hard to reach out to anyone at the moment

but being alone is fine


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What a talent to know how to sew! It's a lost art. 

Working out good choice.

I know about being alone. I don't mind alone. I never did. I have friends that would never be alone. My Mom is like that...

I was the opposite. I started to reach out to anyone that I felt was a good person and positive. I invited out them to lunch or coffee or whatever. They are the single girls. I created a good group to hang out with that enjoy all sort of activities. They really opened their arms to me. My friend Teddy has been nothing but supportive and invites to places all of the time. I rarely turn her down. I keep meeting more and more nice people. I've always like a few good friends...never needed many. 

Do what you feel that you can. However, people can/surprise you when you reach out. I never imagined the support that I would have.

My H on the other hand....has little support. Perhaps, that the reason why he's not doing well.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Am feeling very stressed and confused today -
trying to write lists 
get on top of things 

would love someone to talk it out with - confusion seems to creep up on me constantly -

it's as though I don't know how to prioritise/ decide anything -

I have had a lot of support from some lovely people - most of them that I have known through work.

I don't have a lot of 'single' friends...

my family have been great - but are fatigued with me and honestly don't get 'it'

my H's family is supportive - but they obviously want J to be happy....and are very non-judgmental of him (due to the difficult upbringing etc) and the fact he is a sweet and kind guy.

They are upset with him for 'how' he has done this - is doing this - but not necessarily _for _doing this .....

so many conflicting feelings -

missing being able to love him for who he is so much

am so sick of having think about everything - especially 'how' I deal with him 

just want to sit down and be straight - and go through things 

sick of talking about him and not _to _him ....

it's as though why am I doing all this other stuff when really what I need to be doing is sorting stuff out with him 

am not coping with the lack of routine, predictability, really struggling today


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Am in great need of strength - have agreed to meet H tomorrow.

Still find just seeing him incredibly painful and in addition he has behaved pretty much like a sulky adolescent throughout.

My counsellor just keeps on saying 

" I am sorry you have a boy there"

It is my start of trying to negotiate with this sulky boy -

I want to be calm, peaceful, easy going - I need to let him think that I am doing well - if he sees me suffering he just acts worse...gets more defensive etc...

am nervous as hell

need to get my courage out -

wish me luck.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You can do it K! Just breathe. And remember to treat yourself with love and kindness.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: Good plan on the meeting! Do what you need to do....pamper yourself prior to meeting him. Do what makes you feel better. Listen to upbeat music before you meet him. Get pumped up!

Show him how well you are doing. Maybe you met someone? Why are you outgoing and happy? Don't be too desciptive with your days/nights? When he asks what have you been up to-----say "no good" and laugh! haha When he asks how are you doing-----say "really good!" haha

Fake it girl! Show him that you are kicking azz in life! I BET he isn't having that much fun!!

He's probably expecting you to be depressed. He may expect you to bawl. If you cry, no big deal. I ALWAYS tell myself that I WILL NOT cry in front of him. I do. Last meeting it was just a little tears and I went out being awesome!!

What is the meeting about?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Dear Girls, thank you so much for your words of advice and support....

can't tell you how much it means to me..

reason for meeting - well I think there are two very different agendas...

I emailed him (very friendly) and said 
"now that we are separated and I know we both love our boys very much I am keen to discuss some big picture stuff about them" -

problem is he emailed me back straight away (most unusual) and said yes I'd like to meet we also need to discuss financial stuff.

the fact that he emailed me back straight away and wants to meet today means that he is desperate and very worried about money. 

he is a massive avoider - so he will only do things when he finds himself is a corner at these times he acts impulsivley

so we are meeting with two very different agendas

_he_ wants to pressure me to sell the house - (which would relieve him of immediate financial strain)

_I_ want him to start thinking about ways in which we might work together productively to hold onto house for boys 

I am not optimistic anything 'real' could be acheived today -

so I guess I want to be strong and not be pressured 

and I want to try and tell him that I am going to be calm, reasonable, and that I am approachable and easygoing - if he wants to act 'in kind' we may get somewhere.

but if he is continuing with the sulky teenager routine...well...

uuugh I am so nervous

I keep on thinking I have NOTHING he wants 

how can I negotiate?

what do I 'need' from him?

that's where I get confused...really.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What do you need from him?

What are your wishes regarding the boys?

What are your wishes regarding the house? Can you financially hold onto the house? What if he decided he can't keep up with helping toward the house? 

I hate for you to be in dire straits if he decides to quit paying like he has...He may end up saying he just can't do it anymore financially. Be prepared for that. If so, then keeping the house will mean struggles for you. Losing the house will be even more trauma. What are you options regarding living arrangement if the house HAS to be sold? 

Of course, it better to have the boys in their home. However, it may not work. Prepare youself for the worse

This is what I've done all along. Prepare for the worse and hope for the best. 

You are right....the financial stuff is probably killing him at this point.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> What do you need from him?
> 
> I need for him to tell me how much he can commit to financially.Have asked him in many and various ways to do this over past few months - he is not a details person and has refused to give me a figure. Until I know this I don't even knwo whether there is a hope of keeping house.
> 
> ...


Sure is - otherwise he would not be wanting to meet!

am tempted to text him and say it is off for today -

am I being a coward?

am I just not prepared?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Well you are prepared! What you told me is as prepared as you will be given the circumstances. Nothing is final regarding a divorce and you are in separation mode.

Try to get a figure from him. If you don't want the house sold before the divorce...tell him. It won't hurt to talk.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: I got to thinking about you tonight. I am feeling a bit out of sorts. I got to thinking about how awful it was for your H to say he hadn't loved you in 10 years! That probably was the most selfish, mean statement that he could have ever said. 

I am not sure if he meant it to hurt you. I am not sure if he wanted to make you angry enough to leave him. That statement alone must have hurt you to the core and made you wonder if everything was a total LIE! 

He is a selfish mean man. Right now in whatever mental state that he's in (midlife/depression/euphoric), I pray that you will be able to gather your thoughts. Your life will be better without a man in this current state. 

That fact is, when he came back the first time, professing his LOVE again showed his true colors. He doesn't know what in the heck he's feeling. It changes all of the time.

I hate the word VICTIM. I don't want to behave in that role. However, I don't have a good enough word to describe our roles. We are victims here. At the mercy of a spouse that promised us a lifelong partner, had children and home with us, but when things got tough couldn't handle it. Now we are to pick up the pieces and take their SH_T..whenever they feel like spewing. 

Our lives will eventually get better. It's the in between time that sucks.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> knortoh: I got to thinking about you tonight. I am feeling a bit out of sorts. I got to thinking about how awful it was for your H to say he hadn't loved you in 10 years! That probably was the most selfish, mean statement that he could have ever said.
> 
> I am not sure if he meant it to hurt you. I am not sure if he wanted to make you angry enough to leave him. That statement alone must have hurt you to the core and made you wonder if everything was a total LIE!
> 
> ...


I agree we are 'victims' of circumstance - 
we are not playing the victim - looking for sympathy saying poor me -

our H's are both far more 'victims' than either of us.

Do you know one of my dear sisters told me that she though I was being a victim a few weeks ago - ouch 

I don't agree, but I will never tell her that. Mainly ironically enough because I think it would hurt her to know that she had hurt me - I think she was just feeling desperate and had heard too much SH** that I should have left for my counsellor....

I tend to agree my H is SELFISH - but I am going to enter that in a new post...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I met with my H today.

I took your advice and dressed well. I wore a man's shirt in the vague hope that he may wonder if it belonged to the new man in my life - it was a pathetic really but it gave me a kick anyway!

At first we talked about the weather (has my life come to this I thought?)

I felt pretty awkward and thought I was going to start crying.

I didn't!

I remembered why I was there - to get what I want!

J asked me what I meant by 'big picture' stuff. 
I said that I wanted to talk about what we wanted for the kids - and how we were going to provide that now that we were separated....

J said "I just want them to be happy"..........

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

he told me he was angry that I had got counselling for them without consulting him -

(can i just say that I did tell him - via email and I tempted to find it and resend it - but that would be petty)

we chatted about them for a while - what we are worried about etc - some of the happier stuff.

I was very good natured and kind to him.

I told him that Vincey had written a song called "I'm just not that into you" we both managed to have a laugh about this which I think is pretty big of me considering the circumstances! 

I also asked him if he liked his father's day present which was a dart board - I said that I had thought about sticking my face in the middle - he got embarrassed and said he wasn't angry with me and that he had no right to be angry with me.....

sad thing is that I don't believe a word that he says anymore.

not a word.

anyway I eventually shifted the conversation around to asking him to consider us working together on keeping the house.

he started to get stressed/angry immediately 
he stopped looking at me and started frowning -

he wasn't happy - I'd guess he was ANGRY!

anyway as I suspected all he is worried about is paying his credit card debt and buying a new car - selling the house would be his mealticket there...

when I asked him to work out how much money he was willing to pay in child support he balked - 

he said he didn't knwo how to work it out - 

this is not true - he is just lazy and doesn't want to commit to any details in life 

he's so happy to say " I'd never leave you in the lurch" 
"you cna have the house"

then, just so I knew he was being really insincere he said I think I'll go and work in the middle east for 6 months -

this is a favourite of his throughout the separation. If I thought he meant it in the slightest I would buy him a one way ticket and drive him to the airport! 

but it's lipservcie to his dad who thinks this would be the manly thing to do...........

nothing REAL with this man - all grand statements - 

no substance 

we spoke about other stuff -

I am ashamed to say I asked him about OW he said it was 'nothing' - that he wasn't seeing anyone - 

whatever - 

he would say anything - he wants me to sell that HOUSE! 

I thought that I didn't have anything he needs - but he does need me to sign those papers.....

I got home and felt good and then bad

part of why I felt good was because I think I started a dialogue (maybe) and I am sorry to say that part of why I felt good was because I got to see him....

sad isn't it?

we are messy messy people 
love is illogical 

thanks for listening


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Sometimes wouldn't it be fun to be sarcastic and rude to their face!

When he said he'd work in the middle east for 6 months-"what's stopping you!"

You were strong at that meeting.

You told him what you wanted. He wants a new car! OH WELL! Maybe the OW can get him one!haha

It's funny that they want to be separated but want you to be in touch regarding the kids "details." 

His questions regarding the kids counseling and you not contacting him...oh well..that's how it goes when you are separated/divorced you don't always get a say in what the other does....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Sometimes wouldn't it be fun to be sarcastic and rude to their face!
> 
> When he said he'd work in the middle east for 6 months-"what's stopping you!"
> 
> ...



Yes quite!

Still going through stuff from yesterday -

Some good outcomes from meeting some not so good -

I remember the feeling the first time he left - you are still the wife - he still wants you to look after the kids when he plays baseball -

I think he gained a bit of ground with all this stuff yesterday -

I don't know how long it will last - but I have offered to do a whole lot of looking after when he can't have them....

Perhaps as time goes on and I have more defined life outside of just being the jilted wife he will have to step up a bit more 

Do I think this is really going to happen????

Nope - the difference is that I put the kids first.

You know I asked him if he was 'happier' 

he said "well at first I was relieved but no, I have been struggling - feeling very gulity - I haven't been very nice to you" have felt like 

'topping myself' - 

also something he says to me from time to time and which his family and perhaps his counsellor buys into 

it is CRAP

so now I am supposed to feel sorry for him because he can't move on because he feels so guilty because he was so awful to me - 

UUUUUUGGHHHHHH

if he is sorry and feeling guilty he could make himself and me feel a whole bunch better by actually helping me work out how I am going to survive financially etc. 

instead he is just saying it's too hard - 

we have a TV show here called 

STUPID STUPID MAN 

that's all I can think of today. 

do you know the other thing?

he told me how badly he was doing but didn't ask me about me -
HE is profoundly uninterested in me -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Grrr. Yes, even when my H was living with me he didn't always ask me about myself or my day. Sometimes he'd catch himself and ask "oh, enough about me..how was your day?" I'd say "oh fine." I said fine because if I decided to tell a cute story or whatever he'd get a glazed look in his eye (too much information). Afterall my story wasn't about him. 

By the way, I guess in my second to last phone call I got my message across regarding the boundaries we set (serving papers without letting me know and the money spent on a hunting lease trailer). I told him that he floundered on both of those agreements. I was disappointed that he did these things. He apologized.

The last converstion he MADE it a point to say he was meeting with an attorney and I could come along this week. He said I know you want to be in the "loop." No SH_T! Such a thoughtful man.

So, your H isn't happy? What's his point then?

I wanted so bad to tell my H...are you happier than 2 years ago? When did you decide that you could toss the promise that you made to God and me? Is this financial cut worth it to you? Is it worth that you D and S come from a divorce family? What legency do you think you are giving your children? Their parents couldn't stick it out, so why do they think they should? Disposable marriages.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep to all the above.

Am having a 'real' moment -
nothing matters except they don't want to do it - 
reasons don't matter -

my H told me has doing a 'learned optimism' thing with our eldest son...

that things are **** now but they'll be better -

does he know how much it ****s me to hear him say that?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I think I am feeling bitter because I know the only reason he met with me was because he was worried about money....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

How weird is it, how much energy does it take to learn to 'deal' with our husbands in the way that we have to? 

so tired want to escape


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Escaping would be nice! I think of moving off to work. OK. Reality checks in "I have kids!"

I think it may be easy to deal once we detach ourselves more. 

For me, I keep hoping things will change. Knowing that nothing will change. In fact, since this nightmare began nothing has changed except me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes detachment would be great -

somehow though I think with you and I it is gonna take a bit of time - 

we are too connected


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You are right. Of course, we'll always be connected married with kids. You can't undo that...

I guess my H is calling the tax guy and attorney today? He is going to try to get an appointment this week. I can't wait to get this over with...it's like he is going full on toward this divorce now. 

If I were ever to have a chance at reconciliation it will be after the divorce. He can't get anything out of his mind but taking care of this "business." I am the same way regarding business, but THIS business is a BIT different. We both are driven people in different ways.

Don't get me wrong..I am not waiting on him. 

Funny thing, I need a new cell phone. I wasn't sure what to do as if I do the free phone it extends our contract for 2 years. I talked to him about it. He said "I don't care if you are on the plan, you do what makes you feel comfortable. I don't mind paying for it after the divorce, if you want to stay on the plan." 

These little details all swirling in my mind. Stay on the same phone plan with him (free) and remained "tied." Or get my own plan. I think I am too cheap to turn down a free phone! haha


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpus, I think in your case you are correct - 
I think he has to truly believe it is over and if he straightforward and efficient this is exactly how he will do it -
at least you know it will be doen properly!

What a messy messy business though - it' s not business as we know it - there are in fact no clean lines or due dates -

and once again it's the details
(my advice - go for the free phone!) 
I am staying on the health insurance for as long as I can - !)
let's be practical!


I have so wished that I had enough money to have my 'business' taken care of by professionals - and I have seen my accountant twice and a solicitor 

but the fact is it would make poor 'business' sense to hand it over to them -

so I am left handling the negotiations with 'the boy' myself.

am learning so much.

work up this morning beginning to see things clearly -

by this I mean I am starting to see things through my own lenses and not those where I am 'feeling sorry' for J. 

Interesting -

I need to write it all down before the day and emotion clouds my head.

I am thinking of you


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

right now I regret seeing H on Sunday. 

hearing him say how much he'd hurt me and how gulity he felt opened the wounds 

sharing kind words opened the wound

hope he is hurting a lot 

I really do

does this mean that I can only choose between anger and sadness?

I feel so sad and I feel just sad about the whole situation


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It hurts every time I see or talk to my H. I have to say, when I hear he is in pain, it comforts me in some strange way. 

Even though, I know he is suffering, when he tells me he's suffering it makes me feel like I'm not the only one. 

However, tonight I am back to my peaceful mode after I spoke to him. I had sadness and anger for the past day. I hate those emotions. I've gotten tired and worn out from them. 

Perhaps you will gain some peace along the way. As you start gaining more control of what you can, you start gaining peace. It's when I feel out of control...such as when I saw him at his condo with the bikers on the floor. That is when it turned sad/angry. 

How long has he been out of the house? Do you still have hope in your heart?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> It hurts every time I see or talk to my H. I have to say, when I hear he is in pain, it comforts me in some strange way.
> 
> Even though, I know he is suffering, when he tells me he's suffering it makes me feel like I'm not the only one.
> 
> ...




He's been gone over 3 months - no I don't have any realistic hope. He swore that he wasn't seeing the OW yesterday - that it was all nothing - does this make me feel better or worse?
I guess if this is the case it makes me feel a little better and a little worse. But I honestly don't trust his words 
and I am not at all sure that he is capabel of being honest with himself.

But I guess part of me does have hope - because I still love him.

I miss his spirit, his soul - his kindness and gentleness and his goodness. AT these times I think everything he has said is true - he really never 'quite' loved me - it was never 'quite enough' and he tried in his own way and he never meant to hurt me....

don't know today


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Okay, now here's the problem today.

Am i just being sucked into his stuff again?

While it is true that I can't afford to use solicitors I could go back to the women's legal service that is free - (not always consistent but FREE). 

Is it that using solicitors makes me feel mean?

I have had one meeting with a solicitor and they drew up a letter to send him - and I read it and I just felt sick pretty much and I knew that he would be furious -

and I wanted to avoid this.

I am so so confused - how do I keep it clean for the sake of the kids - 

I guess the kids don't need us to be friends - they just need us to be friendly -

am I whimping out on this stuff?

am I avoiding it as much as he is?

do I just think it's not me? I don't want to be this person who fights...

but this is a big nonsense isn't it?

I am one messed up person -

I think I am secretly hoping that he will just change his mind -

and yet in a way I don't see how he will ever really respect me unless I get tough with him -

any advice ?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't think you are messed up. All of your questions are logical. Your situation is messed up!

It's the double edged sword. You need to protect yourself but you don't want to make him mad enough to NEVER want to reconcile. It's the secret hope that lays in your heart.

I have the secret hope. We aren't the only one. 

Since he can't give you any information other than "sell the house." Since he doesn't want to deal with financial matters forthright. I don't see any choice. 

I think it's a matter of protecting yourself and respect.

You can do this in a friendly and professional way. He will probably get angry as it's NOT on HIS terms. OH MY!!! They have been making ALL of their moves based upon when they FELT like it. 

You are using your head at this point. Better to take care of your financial arrangements and legalities with your head and not your heart.

I think this is a smart move on your part.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K and CW, 

Thought I'd chime in a little. CW, keep doing what you are doing. You are doing this as best can be given the circumstances. K, need to forget the OW. Doesn't help to think about it. I know, been there regarding the OM. Ask CW, she'll tell you a little of my thoughts on Os.

Keep up the work girls. Sometimes none of us realize it, but we are on the path to better selves.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I think you're right FA....better selves.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA and CW 
thank you -

respect 

how do I treat myself with the respect that I deserve?

that's what I want to think about today and that is how I am going to try and make my decisions....

if I come back to myself and am honest about my motivations for my self....

it is advice I give to my kids all the time -

look after your own behaviour, not your brothers.....

I am going to need some more help as I try to connect this 
'big idea' - RESPECT to the practicalities of the situation....

FA - are you saying forget the OW - 
s because the only thing that matters is ME?

CW are you saying go the legal route?
a friend of mine was here yesterday and she was pretty much saying the same thing -

she said if it gets tricky and you and J can't talk to eachother at all for a while - just sutdown with the kids and explain that this is how it is for a while.....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

The legal route? I'm not sure how the legalities are with your separation. I am also not sure how comfortable you feel with your H. 

The main thing, that I would NOT like to see, is your H stop making payments or contributions to the household because he NEEDS another car or can't afford to. 

There wouldn't be anything wrong with talking to a solicitor. Getting the facts. Putting something down on paper do say he needs to contribute X amount. Of course, you know your H better. Maybe it's not needed. For my H, it wasn't needed.

What are your fears?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Well he's not a bad person

not by a long shot - so I'm not worried about him doing me over completely

BUT he is inattentive to details and is very self-centred at the moment - duuuhhhhh.

I seem to have more faith in his ability to 'do the right thing' than my counsellor and my family - which just makes me think that I am acting on emotional stuff and not using my brain here...

So I guess the dynamic is that I keep on being open, honest, approaching him with the expectation that he acts in a like way - but my counsellor thinks I pretty much get trampled on when that happens....

maybe not because he is not fair - but just because he's on this 'me' trip.....????


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I see...he's being selfish and thinking of himself. Will he get to a point, where it crosses over to his financial support? That's a valid question.

I'd talk to a solicitor at the very least to find out your rights. Decide what you want to do later.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes it will - because he will get into a mess - and when he does 
he acts impulsively 

e.g leaves the marriage.
rents a house he can't afford etc.

Just like you I have guided him -

without me it will be a "series of unfortunate events" I have no doubt! 

when the car breaks down what will he do pay me or buy a car?
buy a car of course !

his excuse -

the only one he ever uses:

"K, I had no choice".....

better protect myself!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Am feeling much much worse tonight than I have for a long time -

am buckling under pressure to sort everything and this just leaves no room for my emotional struggle 

so sick of having to be the grown up one -

everyone thinks that I can handle it and sort it and I just don't want to anymore 

I want to escape to a place where I can just be hurt...and not have to be responsible for fixing the mess....

I asked my counsellor today what I did - how I found myself here -

she said 

"You fell in love with a very damaged person with whom you shared a whole life philosophy, but who was really a boy ....that's all"

I think then I just started hurting so bad - 

he hasn't been able to 'grow up' with me 

and he doesn't want to try -

he wants to grow up with 'someone else" 

I feel like I have failed - 

I feel ashamed for my kids - that I couldn't even give them a happy family life -

I am not materialistic - I am not career driven - ever since i met J I was happy to have a family and even if things weren;t perfect in the world I always thought -

I have this perfect little family -

nothing gets better or richer or sweeter

I was so proud of 'us' and the kidn way we lived our life - 

and the light in our children's eyes

but I was mistaken it was a lie ...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: 

You H wasn't/isn't capable at this point to grow up into a man.

He doesn't have the skills, isn't working toward gaining the skills, and is merely acting upon impulse and/or feelings (boylike). 

He won't grow up with anyone else. Really...you have a history and children. If he was going to grow it would have been during this time.

He may not have the capacity to be mature.

Don't be ashamed. It wasn't you. You stuck in there. You did everything you could. No regrets. You couldn't change him. You couldn't make him stay.

Let the kids come to their own conclusions. They will know which parent they can depend upon. Really.

It's the death of a dream. 

You should protect yourself. Don't depend upon him to do the right thing.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

To answer your question of me regarding the OW. Yes, focus in on you and not her. If you focus in on her it eats you alive with the what are they doing, etc. I know -- I've been there. 

Don't blame yourself or feel ashamed about what is happening. As I've come to find out during my struggles - there are a lot more people going through similar things all around you. I was amazed at that. 

Don't blame yourself. It took 2 people to make this mess -- not 1. No matter what you think or your H thinks that is true. I've felt all the same emotions as you have regarding this and when it is all said and done it takes 2 to sort our the mess as well. The other person has to take responsibility for their actions. 

CW is right the kids will know. Just focus on yourself as hard as that is right now.

I wish there was a magic pill that just resolved things like this, but there isn't. One day there will be peace in your life again, if you allow it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA & CW

thank you so much for your gentle words of support -

I trust you both and I can feel your authenticity and wisdom -

many people believe that feelings are 'beyond' words but

I love words and I love that even though we have never met we can communicate about this 

I was a mess last night but I got through and today is another day...

I'll work it out eventually - how to 'be myself' 
(that is stay true to that 'life philosophy' of which I am so fond) 

and sort out the practical matters as best I can.

protect myself without changing who I am 

I am not there yet - 

and I am doing this the hard way 

without being driven by anger 

but once it is done it will be done -

CW I am going to start thinking about the 

no regrets thing -

I think J is filled with regrets - but I think you are correct -

I have none - (well no biggies anyway)

and I want to get through this de-coupling with none as well.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

I don't know about wisdom. Just trying to help another soul as others have been helping me. Kind of like "paying it forward".

Well you both are better than me. Right now I have a lot of anger toward my W. Wups. I need to start thinking xW. Right now i despise her. Her time will come - karma ensures it.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: I suspect you enjoy language. I can tell through your writings and big ol words!!

You are doing well. Up and down days part of the course. 

FA: "Pay it forward: that is how I like to think about things. 

I started volunteering during this mess. I felt that if I "served" others that it would "serve" me. It has. I am blessed.

I think you are right about not being "driven" by anger. It's normal to be angry. I am but not let it consume. 

Another day.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

really tired

had a confrontational conversation with my counsellor this morning - she spoke about how women always think that they can't do it by themselves - that they need a partner..etc

I know what she is saying 

but it bothers me as well 

and I think I have to work on it

I don't think parenting by yourself is comparable to one where your skills complement eachother 

and when you have parented in together for 10 years you are going to miss those skills that the other parent had -

my H has his faults - but we were a wonderful team as far as parenting went - even he would agree with that 

I miss this way more than I miss other aspects of the relationship 

I am struggling to understand how I proceed without feeling lost all the time -

my desire to have a relationship with him over the kids is overwhelming me 

so much to sort out..........

very confused about this


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I am so sorry hun.. You are in obvious pain and I agree that parenting is only done well together. If you are split you operate as one and not joint decisions or paths. Why are we mature enough to have kids but when times get tough bail?? 

As you know with my wife she won't win mother of the year awards but together we are good. She is sensitive and I am strong.. Like yesterday with our daughters homework.. I push my daughter and get her to focus and work. When my method isn't working she steps in and tries her way which is a lot softer.. Togeher it works but if we were seperate our daughter wouldn't get that chance. This is how big having a family is.. This is something that happens everyday.. People need to take it seriously and forgo their needs a little for their families..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Maybe we don't need another person. But humans are social animals and we yearn for companionship. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting someone to share your life with, especially if you have children. What a confusing, painful time. I'm thinking of you, K.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's is better if the kids have two parents. When the parents compliment each other it's downright awesome for the kids! They get the best of both worlds. It's a much different and more difficult job on your own. 

I am thankful that my H, like yours knortoh, wants to be involved. So many parents walk away or have little contact. Sad for the kids.

Some cash was stolen by one of my son's "friend." We put two-two together and figured it out. The kid is 18 and stole from my son, me and another guy. What a jerk. Anyway, we've been spending time doing police reports. 

I called me H and told him that we were being stolen from....maybe someone got the garage code, etc. This was before my son and I figured it out. I had told my H that I was going to sleep on the couch with my handgun to meet my thief! I was p_ssed. I didn't like the idea of someone sneaking in my house stealing. 

My H was like "I will spend the night. I will take care of this now." I told him I called in case something happened. I didn't need his help as I got it covered. It does make me angry that I have these issues and he goes to his condo alone. YES! His stress is much better thank you.

I told him. This is real life..stress and all.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks for understanding guys -

means a lot to me to 

I think I am still in disbelief about this 

of all the things my H was willing to forgo to get out 

I think the role of father and yes CW (protector) is the one I thought he could not sacrifice.

I can remember thinking how can he not want to lock the door before we go to sleep?

how can they sleep not knowing whether we are safe? 

how do guys 'give up' this privilige of having a family that needs you?

I will never understand this -

perhaps my H kept it well hidden but I didn't see any evidence of suffering on his part which needed to be relieved to this extent.

I can well understand how I will get over the romantic suff - being jilted etc. I can understand how I could find someone else to make me feel 'in love' etc - 

but this I don't think I'll ever get it...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren said:


> Maybe we don't need another person. But humans are social animals and we yearn for companionship. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting someone to share your life with, especially if you have children. What a confusing, painful time. I'm thinking of you, K.


Wren do you know the really sad thing is that the night before he left he broke down and started crying saying that he wasn't going to be able to enjoy the kids without me and that he didn't even know if he could look after them without me - so I can only assume he is going through a similiar amount of pain as me as regards this - I really really don't understand why this pain is necessary.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

was just ironing my clothes and I realised why talking to you guys is so good:

I feel like I can tell you the bad stuff and you get it -
but it's more than that 
it's the fact that you don't feel compelled to tell me things are ok when really they are not
you guys are all ok with saying yep that sucks...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

We each have our own heartache. 

Unfortunately, we have that in common and much MORE!

For us and many others we just don't get it! 

We weren't THAT bad. Were we?

It's like the girl that asks..."I wasn't pretty enough. I wasn't smart enough." We weren't "enough." When in fact, it wasn't the girl at all...it was them. They weren't "enough." They felt inferior. They couldn't deal with emotions. 

I wish I could wake up from this nightmare. It feels like I am dreaming. I am going through the motions and wondering if this is going to be my lucky day.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I wish I could wake up from this nightmare too. 

I am sleeping well at night but I'm not getting quality sleep. I wake up and still feel exhausted. My mind is on overdrive. 

Do any of you have a moment of peace or happiness and then all of the sudden remember that oh yeah, my husband decided he no longer needs me in his life! I feel as though I can't be happy. 

Have any of you tried grief counseling? I'm considering it. I told one of my coworkers this week what was going on. She said that sometimes divorce or a tough break up is almost worse than going through the death of a loved one. I think this is true.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It is definitely true...you go through the same stages as grieving.

Me too on the quality of sleep. I used to sleep like a baby. Now I sleep like a 40 year old on a commuter bus that's driving over potholes.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Yup same for me. I used to ake p after 3 hours and check to see where wife was. Now that she is back in bed I am sleeping a ton better. I don't want to make you guys feel bad but I do know exactly where you are. At work my wife is always on my mind.. Going over I am not that bad of a person for this to be happening or I say I'm sorry over and over. It's heart breaking..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

mls31 said:


> I wish I could wake up from this nightmare too.
> 
> 
> Do any of you have a moment of peace or happiness and then all of the sudden remember that oh yeah, my husband decided he no longer needs me in his life! I feel as though I can't be happy.
> ...



It is so much like a nightmare or a new version of life as you know it - and it creeps up on you -
moments of happiness and then crash 
exactly 
and yes in many ways I suspect we experience it as worse than losing someone -
it is so unfinished 

and I know this sounds mean - but we all die and all live knowing that we die -

so I think it easier to be 'philosophical' about this

also if my H died I know my family would be treating me as a grieving wife 

instead they say unhelpful things like
"you've just pinned all your happiness on J. "

???????

unless you go through this no-one has a clue - not a clue........


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Not a clue is right. Like I said elsewhere, it's a lonely battle.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ok gang here's a new low point!

I went to my sister's 50th birthday party tonight.

I made myself a new dress and arrived early.

I was cheerful and pleasant - and danced all night to the band -

I got everyone up on the dancefloor - (felt very liberating)

towards the end of the night I went to the kitchen to do the dishes.

I was chanced upon by two guys!

One is husband of a friend who is just 'sleezy' he did the dishes with me and it was fine - I felt uncomfortable but was handling myself...when the next thing I know my brother-in-law's brother who is a creep of the highest order came up behind me hugged me and slobbered on my neck and whispered in my ear how
'sad' he was to hear my news.

I managed to release myself - which wasn't easy and said
'that's ok sh*t happens even to good people'

and then I looked at both of them and said 
"who needs a f***ing man anyway"? and stormed out.....

oh what fun being a single woman!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: You handled that well..I loved the part where you said 'who needs a f....ing man anyway?" I couldn't help but laugh...

I know it's not funny but the picture you gave me....
I'm sure they were clueless.

It was good that you got out and danced. Fun fun! I am going to a concert 80's music tonight. Should be some dancing involved.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes you know I don't feel 'upset' at all -
it was kind of funny


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Having very difficult day missing him and our life like hell - kids tired and upset -


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Do i really love this guy?
He intimidates the hell out of me...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I feel for you, K. I really do.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thank you wren - I also love your name - not sure whether it has anything to do with the bird - we have these beautiful little blue wrens in Australia ...

ok

now I know it's not wise but I had long conversation with my father-in-law tonight - he's lovely and he loves me as a daughter and we have always been close - but my H is his only son....and I guess you know where I am going with this.

anyway I tried to broach the subject of finances as I thought that my FIL might be able to help me makes sense of my H's seeming 'inability' to grasp what needs to be done in order to separate - but ain't it the way - no-one really knows your partner like you do. 

it was fine that he didn't know what I was talking about 

but it's always the way that people make 'light' of our situation - 
him saying "oh well you two just get on so well I know you aren't going to fight about things" 

and then " I think J is very lonely and I am sure that there is 'no-one else (OW)...."

and then commenting that he thought the kids were "better than ever" as though our break up had been good for them....

he's a lovely man and he has been through a lot mor cr** than I have known - 

but it still hurts - 
when will I learn...

I am beginning to see that your relationship with everyone changes....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I went out with my in-laws for lunch last night. Even though, I know his mom and dad are HIGHLY disappointed in his choices. They would NEVER tell me or my H this....

They are keeping very neutral. He was raised as an only child (2nd marriages for them). It drives me crazy that they won't talk to him and help him sort things out. They have never been a family that confides in each other. That is a huge reason why my H doesn't have the skills of conflict and comfrontation. He didn't grow up that way.

It sounds like your H's family might be a little of the same. I hear the "everything is going to work out" motto shining through your posts as your were telling about your FIL. My in-laws are the same way....especially my FIL.

My h has always said that I was closer to his parents then him. I feel bad for that statement. He is really closer to ME than anyone. My H loves his parents but feel that his parents have never been up to "bat" for him. 

I think you are right we really do know our H's better than their family.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah! I was just lying in bed thinking how can his dad be neutral about us having to sell home, or neutral about kids growing up this way, or so keen to think there is someone else to say to me how 'lonely' and 'sad' and 'stressed' J is as well.......
I am an idiot -
everyone in his family is just saying poor J just like I did for years...what is it about this guy? why does everyone want to protect him..................including me for 14 years


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

The want to protect him because he is a "nice" guy. Plus, the family component is also strong as well. 

What is so poor about J? How would they have seen J's life during the marriage? Why would they feel sorry for him? Did he come across as a weak person?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Good question CW!

Well he is boyish...and 'nice' and gentle and kind ....
and there is an overwhelming concensus that he suffered very badly at the hands of his mum....missed out on vital parenting - her madness meant that she was cruel...

But in terms of the marriage it has been a good one - don't think for a second that his family consider that I have been bad aprtner or haven't had best interests at heart...

but I think they chalk it down to his upbringing 

and the pity falls into two camps...

1. his dad - feels sorry for him that he hasn't been able to maintain happiness with me who knows why?

2. his big sister who (i think) buys his whole story of never having loved me and having stayed with me out of a sense of duty....(she calls it playing a role)

so no matter what they feel sorry for him and even his sister Paula who really is much more sympathetic to me says that she feels like protecting him...

I don't know - does this make sense ?

like to hear what you think of this...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

My Dad came across as your husband does. My Dad's mom had schizophrenia and 6 kids. She was married but the H couldn't take care of them. All 6 kids ended up being adopted. My dad was 13 years old.

My Dad wasn't very good in social skills. He could work and hold down a job. He was shy or meek. He also was strange. I never connected to him. We don't have a relationship to this day. My parents divorced when I was 15.

During the divorce process...everyone felt sorry for my dad. He wasn't the best husband (drink/affairs/jail) but the WAY he came across. So shy, nice, quiet....even the judge and jury (yes) in the courtroom felt bad for him. 

Even to this days, it's "poor E" from my MOM!!! Oh my. 

I never felt bad for him. We all have issues in our lives...bad marriages, bad childhoods, bad jobs. He wasn't a good dad or husband. 

I think some people give off the vibe of "poor me." 

Has your H always given off this "vibe?"


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks Corpus,
wow that;s an amazing story about your family - 
lives upon lives of complex stuff 
sounds like you had a challenging childhood 

and some experience of the 'poor me' outlook 

Sure with J it's the vibe - women in particualr pick up on it whereas men usually just think of him as a "helluva nice guy" if someone has free tickets to the football they'll invite John -

and in so many ways he is a good person and wonderful with kids etc...

but this is not the only side to him - I have seen the stubborn and passive agressive side as well....

well as you have said we all have good and bad in us...

I have been thinking about all the financial stuff and i have realised that I am expecting him to behave in a way that siply won't happen.

It is not so much that he isn't 'being reasonable' it is much more that he doesn't see things the way I do and he has very underdeveloped life skills in this area. 

Is this because I have compensated for him? 
Perhaps - but now is his chance to step up! 

I have always been aware of his shortcomings as regards money etc and I have been more than happy to not worry about them as his other qualities are way more important.

He will be reeling with the fact that I am now 'expecting' him to think about long term stuff and committ to things beyond a month....

So should I just 'give up' with this ?

Just accept I am divorcing the man I married - 

He thinks he'll be different - he thinks it means he is grown up - but I am slowly gathering evidence that he isnt' changing all that much -

only his circumstances....

I really am beginning to think I just need to hand it over to a solicitor -

he is going to be impossible to negotiate with -

but he still has a week to get back to me 

I think all in all your guy is much more 'grown up"


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

"I have been thinking about all the financial stuff and i have realised that I am expecting him to behave in a way that siply won't happen.

It is not so much that he isn't 'being reasonable' it is much more that he doesn't see things the way I do and he has very underdeveloped life skills in this area. 

Is this because I have compensated for him? 
Perhaps - but now is his chance to step up! "

You are starting to gain some clarity on your H's life outlook and how you may have contributed. That is a good start. 

Given what you told me and if he's like my H....he won't change. You are right to push the financials as this is your family and you need some future bearing (more than a month to month basis). If he gets a girlfriend and decided that he can "short" you the next month....you are in a bind. 

I'd get some legalities going, if he doesn't present you with much in a week. This may put him in crisis mode. I think crisis mode is GOOD. It's my belief that people are more likely to change when there is crisis. 

I look at pivotal times in my life and marriage...each time there was change-there was ALSO crisis involved!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ahhh that's an interesting way of looking at it -
force the issue....
I am going to ponder this one -
really I need to think about it....
thanks


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok - so I am thinking relax the pressure emotionally - be easy going upbeat - how i want to be in life -

but turn the screw financially is this a f***ed way of looking at it?????


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Absolutely look at it this way. 

Behave as if you are secure emotionally with the decision of divorce. OK this IS happening. 

Turn the screw financially. This is your right to protect yourself...no one would blame you. Afterall YOU did not walk away! 

You can still remain on good terms. It up to him how he behaves. It's his choice if he thinks you are doing something devious. It's a matter-of-fact...you have children to provide a safe and secure environment for...it's up to you. He need to play his role financially and otherwise. You can't risk that he may change his mind and "forget" to pay the bills.

When they leave, they are under the impression that they can do what they FEEL. Come and go as they please....it gives them confort that things are the "same" as when they left. This isn't a purposeful plan. We allow them to have things remain the same as they are...we are HOPEFUL that they will return.

The moment, when you start changing things (financially, dating others, legally, no chit/chat) they start FEELING uncomfortable. They'll get angry or start blaming etc. Pure emotional stuff. That's ok. It's up to us to remain calm, cool and collected. We are in control. This is what happens when people divorce. They feel pain and they have legalities to deal with and they have financial obligations to their children and they don't get to chit/chat with their wives anymore.....

Create that crisis.

*I just realized that I've been in control since the separation. I chose to limit talk, to agree to the divorce, to ask to date others (haha), to begin chit chatting again, to hire a good attorney, to appear attractive and confident around him, to remain secretive about my goings-on (even if nothing is going on), etc.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks for this wonderful advice CW.

I am going to try and take it on board. 

I am just letting you know I am going to need help with the practicalities of this plan - hope you are going to be on line for a while! 

I am smart in lots of ways - but I am also very dumb.

I think I am beginning to see how I want to use this painful time as an 'opportunity for growth" but it aint easy is it?

I liked what you said to me about recognising who my H is what I did to contribute to this -

this is important....

I am only just beginning to really get that you can only change YOU....

This is something I am looking forward to learning in a much deeper sense...

stay posted!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok just called my H (am starting to feel weird calling him that!) and that was a biggy for me -
Had to organise a few things -
he sounded terrible - like there is nothing in his voice -
he forgot even to ask how I was -
but I am practising being friendly and happy and organised and in control with him and you're right CW makes me feel in control...which is great....
can I keep it up??
yes of course


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You can do it, K. And on the days you feel you can't, forgive yourself, and try again.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You can do this...it gives you power. They are hurting..you see it and you hear it. What benefit is it for them to leave a nice household (not without flaws) and go it alone? What they begin to discover (not immediately) is its' THEIR problem. They are getting what they want but are still unhappy? 

I went on to tell my h during a "talk" that the divorce needs to happen sooner to bring things to a head. I told him that once he's divorced he'll realize that it's been him and not ME the whole time. He gives me no response. I don't care. This is how I feel about the situation. If he disagrees with me...then he needs to let me know. He doesn't say a word.

Also, you said in an earlier post that your H may come to a point where he wouldn't come back in fear of hurting you again. Of course, my H has a similiar attitude. That's why is important for him to see you doing well. There may come a point, when you see signs of him wanting to move closer. You may have to recognize that and tell him it's "OK" to come back. However, you WILL need to put conditions on his return. He has to come back for the right reasons (you) and to be fully in (100%) the marriage. Also, to work on the marriage together. Just a thought.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

THANKS GUYS - REALLY AM BEGINNING TO FEEL A BIT BETTER -
HONESTLY !

IT IS ABOUT 1 WEEK UNTIL MY H'S BIRTHDAY AND SO 1 YEAR SINCE THE NIGHTMARE BEGAN!

I have survived so far and the boys have survived ....

and I really do appreciate all your support 

CW that is so true - what benefits to these guys are there to going out alone? 

my H swears nothing is happening with OW - "that it was nothing" 

I don't know - can't be too sure with him anymore but I think that's true as well. Maybe he's finding that moving on isn't so easy?

Anyway it's not that I am getting my hopes up - I do think my guy is a pretty messed up individual and I do suspect that I will have moved on by the time he sorts it...

I thought it was weird when I was talking to my FIL the other night and he said
"you wouldn't have him back now would you?"
and I said
"of course I would - I love him and this is not what I want for myself and my kids" 
he was genuinely surprised -


I don't know about you CW but I don't take a lot of this 'personally' - it is about HIM and so although he has hurt me terribly I know he is a good person and I am a good person - and we have loved eachother in every way that is possible - so I know that it _could _work for us. 

But that's not my destiny in life at the moment.

And it may be not where we turn up -

but at least I know that no matter what I will always want to have him in my life somewhere...on the edges perhaps - but still around and that's a much healthier feeling than some of the ones I have been having!

adios amigos!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Our H's need some serious soul searching. It requires some work on their part. Not sure if they are able. 

Our destiny is to be who we NEED to be for ourselves and our children. We are strong, intelligent, healthy women. We love our H's despite their flaws and maladjustment. We are willing to accept them back into our lives given the right circumstances.

It's also been almost a year for our nightmare's anniversary. I think another year from now will look totally different.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Cw you are link a font of wisdome at the moment - I loved what you wrote about destiny......
am going to print that one up and stick it on my wall...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Funny how philosophical you write when you are living through hardship!

Many relationships would NOT have a spouse waiting for the other spouse to come around. I know many people that say "kick him to the curb." Even his mother is surprised that I let this go on so long???? She said "I don't know how you stayed in it this long." Man, I am fiercely loyal but am I stupid for sticking around? 

No, I don't think so. It's not like I was being abused or anything. It's because we have a shared history, love, and commitment that I stay. 

I don't know if there was OW involved I'd probably feel different. He still wears his wedding ring during the divorce.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

People walk away so easily. I feel like one should earn your way out of a relationship. We didn't just jump in- why just jump out?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW true I am a bit of a home grown philosopher - but you're not too bad at that either I have to say...thinking is my speciality! 

My hurt side fights with my reflective side though....

I fear all the time that my Hope for my H and I is completely misguided and naive....that I am being emotionally obtuse and that I just don't want to believe it's over.... 

but what does it matter?
it's my business and it is not stopping me from living my life.

Like you we know these guys - not just the crap they have put us through - but all the other bits as well....

I think my H thinks that I don't know him - but I do -

anyway my rational part thinks it's all over - but the irational part thinks otherwise -

my counsellor just thinks its conditioning - he came back once he'll do it again...

but nobody knows the future hey? 

Wren I agree! 
I was so very shocked when my H left me the first time -
no thought involved at all 

all reactive emotion - he claimed that he had shocked himself! 

he's impulsive and doesn't think things through - that's one reason I know he'll be suffering - he just goes for the quick fix -

this doesn't necessarily work in my favour and I think that he may well act 'impulsively' with another woman if he hasn't already....

so dangerous terrain 

but he didn't try and work things out

he had the gall to say to me that he 'knew what he wanted to change about our relationship but it was more irrational than that"

well who knows - love is irrational I guess.....

but he has also said a lot of other stuff to me and I can't think he's found much peace yet.

I don't think he is feeling bad just because he feels guilty - I think he also misses me and our life - but I doubt whether he's capable of being honest about that - 

until my H is capable of being honest with himself he's not much good to anyone - 

hope he can one day but I will have moved on I expect....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

allow me to vent:

just got off the phone with H.

He was cross because our son had baseball training today and he didn't go....

I tried to get my son to go - but he complained of a sore ankle (a silent protest perhaps) despite all my powers of persuasion I couldn't get him there....

my H was p***off about this -



and said " I would have made him go"

It was all I could do to say "Well guess what J. you're not friggin well here anymore - so you couldn't MAKE him go"

after we got off the phone I called him back - I am just so sick of him being 'cross' with me when I have done NOTHING to that man - what is his problem????

he was still agressive - I say 
"hi how are you?" and he never says how are you - 

So I say -

"J I am really trying to reach out to you so that we can have productive relationship about the kids and I'd appreciate it if you'd respond in kind" 

he gives a few excuses - "I wasn't cross with you, I was cross with Vince" ...etc...but this is all CRAP 

he IS cross with me 

being separated with kids is the absolute pits 

all of the crappy fights and none of the making up....

How do I keep my cool in these circumstances ?
Should I call him on this behaviour?
What do I really think of someone (anyone) treating me this way?
Would he be as rude to anyone else? 
Why am I still copping it even though I have given him his freedom and am getting on with my life?
It is as though just the sound of my voice annoys him...

Why is he so angry with me????

I think my counsellor would say he is p**** with me about the money side - that I haven't sold the house and that I am holding him accountable....
and that he will be angry about this until it is resolved.....

I am beginning to see that he isn't very 'nice' to me and is still acting like a child....do I really love this guy? 

can i just say something about my 8 year old?
after the phone call he said to me 
"Mum when you are angry with Dad, go in your room, Vince and I will go downstairs and you say whatever bad things you want to like "I hate you!" or whatever you like" 

he is amazing - !!!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Knortoh You are noticing the issues with being seperate. 2 lives living independant of each other and have their own rules and ways of handling things. The kids pay the most cause they have to learn to be 2 different people with each parent. As a couple you both agree to raise and handle issues together. No conflict and no different standards. 

Your doing great keeping cool IMO. Your practing everything you can do to improve and move on.. Let him get upset and angry. Thats HIS problem. 

His anger is directed to you cause you handled the situation different then the way he would have. Not that you were wrong in anyhing you did but not HIS way. It is something he needs to get over. Just remind him that he's not their and I made the best decision I could.. Thats all you can do.. 

You don't love the guy he's become but there is the same guy you married deep down. Only anger and frustrations are shown now. The question is how long you want to endure it?

As for the kids again this is the problem with seperation.. They are used like pawns and it makes them grow up to fast. I hate to see it. It was the main drive to saving my marriage besides I love my wife more then I could any other women..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH thank you so much for your support and insight. 



Loving Husband said:


> Your doing great keeping cool IMO. Your practing everything you can do to improve and move on.. Let him get upset and angry. Thats HIS problem.


You are correct about this - I keep on thinking that if I treat him how I would expect to be treated he'll eventually pick up on my cues. What hurts is that he is generally one of the most polite individuals I have ever met and is a master of making people feel at ease. It feels cruel when he treats me this way. 



Loving Husband said:


> His anger is directed to you cause you handled the situation different then the way he would have. Not that you were wrong in anyhing you did but not HIS way. It is something he needs to get over. Just remind him that he's not their and I made the best decision I could.. Thats all you can do..


Yes you are correct once again - it just feels unfair that he blames me when he is the one who gave up the right and resonsibility to handle these things when he left...



Loving Husband said:


> You don't love the guy he's become but there is the same guy you married deep down. Only anger and frustrations are shown now. The question is how long you want to endure it?


I guess I can endure it because I don't live with it - but I tell you what LH I am losing respect for this guy....i thought he was angry and frustrated living WITH me - now he's out he's even angrier - it's that old thing you take yourself with you wherever you go - so true....
when he left he told me 
"i just want my kids to see me happy" .....
he was horrible to our son as well as to me tonight



Loving Husband said:


> As for the kids again this is the problem with seperation.. They are used like pawns and it makes them grow up to fast. I hate to see it. It was the main drive to saving my marriage besides I love my wife more then I could any other women..


Yes I am concerned for them. The older boy (who wouldn't go to baseball) fakes these injuries all the time - even my Husband said he thought it was a 'silent protest' - 

the little one kills me with compliments...trying to make feel good 

you know LH I really don't understand how people can be so matter-of-fact about what kids go through when parents split...
it still shocks me that my H would sacrifice his role as fulltime dad in this way...

I NEVER thought he was capable of this mid-life crisis or not -
maybe not the man I thought he was?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Who in the heck is HE going to be angry with...himself? NO

He is already blaming you and hence the anger is directed toward you. Because he's a "nice" guy like my H...he won't come outright and say it.

I would say these things to him in a calm, cool collected manner.

Something like this..."the moment that you choose to walk out the door you left me with the day to day responsibilities of taking care of our children. In the household, as you remember, there are good and bad days with kids...that is life. I do my best as I am alone here. I don't need you to get angry and on my case. I'd appreciate with these "little" things that you leave it to yourself."

I love your 8 year old! He also has amazing insight (like you)! He's right on by the way....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah CW you are correct 


of course he's angry with me - aint no one else there and he is till being Mr Nice Guy at work etc....

the question is why am still surprised by this 

I keep on waiting for Nice John to come out again - sometimes I think he's quite nutty in this way though -

once again only two switches - nice and awful 

nothing in between.

I am going to memorise your words and use them on him next time I feel his petulant anger bears down the phone at me 

I think I will be over him sooner than I imagined if this continues much longer


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,


Just hang in there. You are doing well given the circumstances. It takes a lot of energy for someone to stay mad at another person. It is draining for them.

You can do this.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Sucks to be the scapegoat and usually the person closest is the chosen one. I hate it. He will wake up, one day. I believe it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA 
that's such a valuable insight - 
I sometimes feel as though he has been 'secretly' angry at me for years 
I know when he sees me face to face he finds it difficult to maintain he comes across very differently and says
"I have no right to be angry with you"....

But FA my question is -what is 'real' the angry bit or the not angry bit? 

Is it that when he thinks about it and remembers that I am not in fact a bad person that he 'isn't angry' or is this just a mask ?

my gut feeling is always that the anger is a mask -

my counsellor thinks I am nuts when I say this - and she says it's no longer a distinction I need to worry about...

pretending to be angry being angry - what's the difference?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: FA is a good one to be asking these questions. He has alot of insight on this subject regarding anger.

I feel that the anger is the pain coming out. My H is, of course, the same way. He was angry for months. Hell...about everything. He could get sparked off easily as well. My H used to be this happy go lucky guy. Not any more. He didn't DEAL with his emotions, it just came out as anger. Plus he picked up drinking wine in the evenings. Lovely! I think he is still doing that one alone!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

that's interesting - pain coming out as anger....

my H's best friend (who is no longer really his friend said to me once that anger is one step away from guilt .....)

my H has both (guilt and pain)

but I am so sick of all the dark sides of life -

I crave the light at the moment...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

Anger, as I've come to find out takes many forms. For me with my w, I had long known as a child that I would lash out at people with anger. As a child I once broke a door. That was a turning point. It might have been bad timing on my part but I read a book entitled "Will" written by of all people but G. Gordon Liddy. He talked about overcoming fears of things that you just control it. As a result I realized I didn't want to do that and would "will it away". So I did with my anger.

The problem is it boils up from time to time. Afraid of what I might say - I could say very hurtful things that I didn't really mean - I avoided confrontation on a personal level. Not on a business level. In business I always stand my ground. So if I ever was with someone long enough, and I rarely ever was prior to my w, I started to become what some term the "nice lady". A pleaser. Unable in the viewpoint of the one I love to make a decision. To look pathetic. Add a stressful business environment and you look like a wimp. But that is me. Not necessarily your H.

I learned a lot from a book entitled "The Dance with Anger" by Harriet Lerner. When I read her description of the "nice lady" I thought she was reading my mind. Again add that mindset to other things going on with me and I appeared weak and pathetic to my w. Too late for me now, but maybe you should get a copy and read it. There are other personalities in there regarding anger. Please note that my anger never entailed anything physical to anyone I love or loved I should say. Actually the coping mechanism I created was just the opposite - appeasement at all costs.

And I'm like CW's husband - I don't deal well with emotions. When things are going well I appear pretty happy go lucky. When not I revert inward to myself. Add pressure to myself, etc. Then for me it just builds from there. Withdrawal from everything and everone, except my son. I was even withdrawing from my parents and brother. I was a mess. My w assumes I was cheating but I was not. Never have cheated on even someone I dated. Never had the taste for that. 

Now she is resentful and mad. So mad she has cheated on me. Still mad at me about things. Projects her own issues onto me. 

The positive to me out of all of this has been learning about my core issues. How to deal with my anger. How to deal with childhood issues. It took me a while to look deep and realize why I did things the way I did. I've gone through emotional hell, but I will survive somehow, some way. 

Anger isn't a mask. But it is just an emotion just like being happy. I just didn't want to hurt the ones I loved the most - so I guess I left them without even realizing it. Your H is probably afraid to express his anger because he doesn't want to hurt you without meaning to like I did. It is real. The pain is deep but it has to be let go. 

I know I'm rambling, but this is my biggest issue and although it kills me to write about it, I need to. I don't want others to follow in my foot steps. Keep asking questions and I will do my best to provide any insight I might have. You have hope and I see it in him to try based on what you've shared. Ask your questions. I'm here to help.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA 
you've given me so much to think about and digest - I will have some more questions and I will take you up on your offer of answering them ...

thank you


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

That is what I'm here for, to pay it forward. To help others. Makes me feel better. I look for advice too. But until, like you realized that you played a part, no couple has a chance if it is all one sided. That is why I believe you should have hope, because he realizes he played a part in this. Without that, there could be no real change. Hopefully he is up to the challenge. But as I found out, you have to be willing to open up with a counselor and dig deep.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Spouses tend to take everything out on each other. Why do we hurt the ones closest to us?? Why do we treat total strangers better then our spouses?? What does it accomplish?? our husband is doing that. Why is there no responibility for our actions directed towards them?? On a positive side.. Anger/Frustraion/Guilt is all emotions of being attached to somebody. That is a good thing. If he had NO emotion I would be more concerned. I was told anger is the cousin to love. I believe it. If somebody hurts you they are connected.. I know that if somebody at work hurts me I am unphased.. If my wife does I am torn apart. This is why we are here..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Add that if your spouse is a sensitive person, like mine then when he is hurting and doesn't deal with the emotions we get the brunt of the anger.

Although, when you are no longer in the same household it's different. The first few months he was angry at other...his boss, his partner, his parents, his landlord. I didn't talk to him much during that time (LMBT). 

Since I began talking to him and he's began the divorce process he seems more centered with me. I don't know. Today, I was thinking...I wonder if he puts as much thought into US as I do. I wonder if he thinks about me at all?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - I am setting myself to thinking about what role I have played in the break up...not in a beating myself up way - but in an honest way...as it is tricky it will take some time...but thank you SO much for reminding me of that...

LH I agree - anger is an emotion and in a strange way you know (if I am honest) I am pleased that he is angry -
for him it is sign that he is not 'in control' of his emotions - and he works very hard to put on a rational and clam demeanour usually...
it's so true the mask is cracking - it was FA who told me honestly that some guys really are 'boys' playing the role of 'man' - which is the case with my guy....

CW - yep he's sensitive alright - that's why we love them hey!
In my heart I know he's suffering and will probably take much longer to get over 'us' than I will...

And CW I find myself thinking the same thing -

is he thinking about us, about me at all??????

They are going through a very self-centred moment remember ....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Anger is good, as long as one doesn't get stuck there. What I find interesting is how our partners finally see the light and start wanting to be selfish, after they have committed to relationships that are safe. Do they not see the connection?
You can take care of yourself while being in a relationship. It's not black and white!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - exactly -
the first thing my H said to me when this hit the fan was 
"I haven't been very good at taking care of my mental health"....

so 

he has to LEAVE??????

but that's my H all over - can't live in grey area -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

They leave because of the fight or flight response. 

They don't know what else to do...their pain is great and they can't deal....flight is what they choose.

The more I hear the details regarding "taking care of my mental health" I say it is truly, truly about him. He's messed up big time...like my H. 

In retrospect, I didn't take care of my mental health. I stood to fight. I guess in many ways, had I been a different person, like our H's I would have fled. Hmmm.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I let myself in for a battering as well...

but CW I am wondering whether I need to really let go in order to keep on taking care of myself....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't know if we can let go. We are still emotionally attached knortoh. Letting go means having NO hope or not wanting that relationship. I'm not there. I won't be there after the divorce either. 

Maybe he'll get a girlfriend or turn out to be gay or have some secret life that totally gets me angry and detached. Heck...I'm not sure that would even do it. 

I think it will just take time. We may end up finding another relationship after the divorce and figure out what we've missed. I'm just allowing myself to take life as it comes.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

hmmm time............ the fullness of time..........well I am becoming acquainted with time like never before!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

Yes time. It is eternal and sometimes marches by so slowly in the moment. And then you look up and it is years later. You wonder where the time went. Now it stands still for us. For them, I guess it keeps moving. 

Detachment is best. I know it means no hope. But for our sanity, it is best.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - but this is so sad


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I get what everyone is saying about time. 

I think I'm to the point where I want whatever is going to happen to happen. I'm tired of dealing with all of these emotions. I'm tired of waiting for my H to serve me divorce papers. 

In some ways I so desperately want the clocks to turn back to June or July when things were better. In other ways I want to move on. 

One thing is for sure, I still miss the man I married. I miss him a lot and I don't know what happened to him. 

Gotta keep saying: this too shall pass.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Life is a grey area. Not to sound pompous, but did we partner with emotionally immature people?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren life is grey - and the short answer to your question is 'yes'....
we overlooked this because we loved them - their spirit, their kindness, their presence...
it was a risk - they didn't grow up with us -
it is so sad


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Can I just share that I am no longer 'going' mad - I am mad...I have had to work very long hours the last few days - trying to earn enough money to keep floating...and it has meant sitting at the computer...hence why I am able to keep up with everyone's posts!

can't go out to exercise because of kids 

so I have taken to getting up every hour or so and running around my back yard - (it's pretty big) but I just jog around and around - - 

and I can't tell you how nuts I feel.....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

_'But I don’t want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can’t help that,' said the Cat. 'We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.'
'How do you know I’m mad?' said Alice.
'You must be,” said the Cat. 'or you wouldn’t have come here.'”_


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)




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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Oh yes, lets all go down the rabbit hole.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

knortoh: I was wondering how often do you hear from your H?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Never!
if i could juts evaporate off the earth I think that would suit him best. 
I was getting horrible emails from him about stuff every week - so I asked him to just call me if he needed to say something (I had developed problems with opening my work email because it woud bring on panic attacks...) 
but now - he would never call me for anything -
he texts me about the boys and I call him when I need to arrange something 
I have asked if he wants to meet every two weeks to discuss parenting and he has said yes - but don't think he'll ever organise it...
I have done so both times....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What was horrible about the emails? Just curious.

My H wouldn't organize the meeting either. He's afraid of the confrontation or possible relationship talk. Not so much since I've allowed him to call ramdomly and are relationship is more relaxed. Now, as you know, he calls often. 

How often does he see the boys? What are the arrangements.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Well both the tone (impersonal and sometimes a little nasty) 
no hello or goodbye etc...

and also the content....

I just found it incredible to be delivered informartion from him this way...

Sometimes the emails weren't bad but I think it was a bit of conditioning on my part....

I associated them with emotional pain...

Everything was so shocking for me - the 1st time because it came out of the blue and the 2nd time because I had re-invested so much...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I understand. It's not like the e-mails/texts/messages that you would have gotten pre-problems. It's a reminder of things gone wrong. I do get that one.

I sent my H a rare e-mail...helping him locate a website. I didn't have to do it. No "thanks." THAT will be the last time I help him unless he asks.

You do build a wall and know what you can tolerate anymore. I'm like you...if it doesn't "sit" with me well then I don't do it (if possible).


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah, yesterday I was cleaning out a bag and I found an email that I had printed out from him that he'd sent when he'd back and he was on a high and we were planning holidays etc...
couldn't believe that it was April - so warm so full of love 
I almost couldn't believe that it was from him....
yet that was real too 
I really got f****ed over....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

In there world...they are in a fantasy land of feelings.

They are being led by how they feel. Think of your average 3 year old. Maybe emotionally they are that young...in a way.

How can your H tell you with full emotions that he loves you. 

Then a month later or whatever...change his mind. Pure childlike behavior. Like my counselor said...it's like a child "I'm going to take my toys and leave!" They don't want to stay because they don't like what's happening (with us or with them). 

I tell you...that is a double hell you went through. Thinking things are going to be ok. Rekindling and reconnecting...then bamm!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes it was/is a toughy....
and for him feelinsg were everything!
I remember him saying with utmost conviction

"K. don't you think I'd cut off my right hand if i could feel like that (peacefully in love with you) all the time?????"

what do you say to that - 

when he didn't feel 'in love' it meant it was 'out of love'...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

OH my what a dramatic statement! (hand cutting)

My husband told his parents...after he broke the news of our divorce. He said "I'd break my bike in a million pieces if I could change things!" His mom told me this. It doesn't make any sense. He was emotional (not crying) at the time. At the time, his parents thought the divorce was both of our ideas. 

After I spoke with the mom and gave the details. She told me what he said. DUH. He could change things but was unwilling.

When my H told the kids. It was my idea (before hand) to have him say to them that the divorce was his doing. I told him all along..I don't agree or want this and if you tell them...make sure that you tell them it's your idea. Guess what! He conveniently left that out. I told them, in front of him. He gave me a look (angry) at the time. I don't care it was important to me that they knew that there MOTHER wasn't giving up. That someone was willing to fight! I told him parents the same thing.

So your H and my H are along the same lines-acting as if those feeling are beyong their control. Rubbish.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

once again - amazing correspondences -
and your H willing to sacrific the bike!

sorry I am laughing - only because I think my H loves his bike more than me too!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah - it's always out of their control 
no responsibility...

my H told my kids (and his dad) that he left 'cause we weren't getting along????
no wonder his dad thinks I am hiding something!

Oh yeah the other thing I just remembered was in the beginning when I told him how awful he had been behaving towards me he just said

"I have to find out why I have been so horrible to you" (looking for an excuse as opposed to taking resonsibility....)


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Thats not looking for responsibility its a pity party. He is looking for an excuse to behave this way.. Don't let him feed you.. Just move along. I can see how tough you have it and you don't deserve this. Neither do the kids.. Hang in there it cant get worse can it??


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks LH and you are correct...
sometimes I have to remind myself it actually CAN'T get worse..he's gone....
and I am surviving...
went out with my eldest son tonight to a show and I smiled all night - a first for such a long time...
it's ok....not great but it's ok....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

That's a start.. I saw my wife smile so much yesterday and it made me feel good.. I know it made her feel good.. Now you have to build on that.. I feel for you I really do.. We as men abandon the wives and leave the kids with them. Mean while the wife pays the most and the husband has time to do whatever. If the guys stood up for their actions we wouldn't have a world getting this messed up...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Take solace in small victories, K. Smiling all night is definitely worth a celebration.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Knortoh: I KNEW you'd get the bike statement! Really! If he was willing to sacrifice the bike for the relationship than THAT was a serious statement (sarcastic). The bike WAS more important (the last year).

I am also happy that you were able to smile. I actually do that more now than ever. My H would have a comment or look (nothing mean) but kept me from letting loose sometimes. Now, I don't worry about that.

Lately, my thoughts don't always run to him and our relationship. I can think of other things, in my sleep, when I drive, than us. It's a significant step as you know. When you no longer think of issues during your down time.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> When my H told the kids. It was my idea (before hand) to have him say to them that the divorce was his doing. I told him all along..I don't agree or want this and if you tell them...make sure that you tell them it's your idea. Guess what! He conveniently left that out. I told them, in front of him. He gave me a look (angry) at the time. I don't care it was important to me that they knew that there MOTHER wasn't giving up. That someone was willing to fight! I told him parents the same thing.


GRRRRRR.....the paragraph above could have come out of my wife's mouth and it raises my bloodpressure to boiling. Why was it important for your kids and his parents to know their mother/daughter-in-law wasn't willing to give up??? I've never been able to understand that logic.

I ask out of curiosity and seeking to understand.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Good question.

I have a 15 year old and 20 year old...given their age and understanding..I felt more comfortable with them knowing a bit more than perhaps a young child.

It was also important for me to be a model for my children. They see, without me pointing out, that I have done everything to save this marriage. However, I wanted my H to state that he was the one letting go or giving up. It wasn't a mutual decision and their was nothing that I could do to stop it. I didn't give up and I am proud of that! 

During that time it was also the (1) thing that I had control. It may have been selfish but it was the little comment that made me feel better. So be it.

My H had relatives and friends believing it was a mutual decision. It was not and that made me angry. I could have kept quiet and allowed our divorce reasons to be kept "private." Then I ask myself, it really wasn't private...it was a lie.

Hope this answers the reasons why? It wasn't meant to be mean spirited. Yes, it made me feel better.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Dzed thanks so much for your honest insights..they are really helpful to us who have been on the other side of this equation..is there a term for the person who ends up with a Mr NG?????

CW perhaps you and I should write a book - "Married to Mr Nice Guy" ....

I can see now that my H doesn't want to love me ...

that's it
pure and simple 

I want to love him and I want him to love me - hence the pain....

when he came back he wanted to love me - hoped he could love me but found he couldn't...

he did try...

and I get it that it took enormous courage for him to tell me - even he opted out of telling me DIRECTLY....

or at least articualting it....

can I ask your advice about something?

I feel as though the Mr. NG fits my H's personality perfectly but I also think that in my case I am trying to deal not only with emotional dishonesty but also immaturity 

dealing with him now is like dealing with a petulant teenager....

when I meet him face to face he tells me that he feels terrible and guilty (because he's been so horrible to me) 

but if I have to call him I say hi, how are you? and he says hi - in a really annoyed tone - can't even bring himself to say how are you -

now please bear with me as I am aware this may sound petty...

but it is bascially the brush off - why are you calling me - I am annoyed with you before I even start to discuss anything and we do have 'adult sized' problems and two 'real' children to continue to care for...

so I guess what I am asking is this part of the nice guy thing - or is it that underneath the nice guy I have been living with a petulant teenager - 

or is it just a level of immaturity that not all NG's have?

can you answer that one?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

I believe that is what a NG would say to someone. I haven't read the book yet, out of stock at 10 stores around here and on order. Being one, I can tell you that is how I would react, annoyed, insteand of real feelings. He is a petulant teenager at this point. Actually he might be a six year old. It could have started that long ago. I'm not making excuses, just reality here. Realize I have just, with D8zed's help, become aware that I am an NG, but I started to understand the physosis involed. Please at any cost, etc. After a while it just builds within. I can't remember how long you've been married, for me just 7 and a half years, so I now see that if my w's personality was different this could have lasted for 20+. And that isn't good for either person. Think about it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks FA -
I have been with J for 14 years, married for 10....
so I guess now -
how do I best deal with this?

you see FA I don't ever equate your ability to reason and reflect and articualte with who my H is 

I think we have to add into the mix with him a difficulty in articulating stuff...(he is smart however and I always thought in some ways a lot more emnotionally smart than me) 

do you think that you can just articulate things better because you are a little further down the track...

and how do you think my H would react if I tried to braoch any of this with him???

disaster/pointless????


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh...

I'm not willing to say your H's rudeness on the phone is related to being NG. There are too many other possibilities. I think an outsider would need to know both sides of the story (yours and his) before venturing a guess.

If I put myself in your H's shoes and it was *my *wife calling me, I might act annoyed on the phone because she can be controlling and sometimes nasty when she's hurt. 

Of if my wife called me more than I thought necessary, I might act annoyed.

It's just so hard to say what could be going on. You might be right about the maturity level. I just don't know. Sorry.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D&zed once again thanks for honesty - I have called him twice in last three months and am neither rude nor controlling -
(not personal opinion) my counsellor says that she thinks that I am one of the most reasonable people she has even seen going through current situation - 
but who knows?
I think teh conclusion that I am coming to is 
YES my H is classic NG but add into the mix a level immaturity that you other NG's just dodn't seem to have at all...
I feel as though each time he is with me /communicates with me it is a constant struggle to think who is, what he wants, how he has to 'stand up to me'.... 
but often it is just childish nonesense - or arguments that if you were living togther you would deal with quickly...
anyway thanks for insight again...
think I was better off when I didn't get it at all


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Don't you think the NG's is a sign of immaturity? 

When my H's cops an attitude when we speak....I ask him "are you upset with me?" Being a NG he'll say "NO WHY?" Because you are coming across abrupt and unfriendly." He'll immediately change into NG again! Of course he will turn into the NG again...he was confronted. If he was mature, he would say something like..."No, I'm not really mad but you called me when I was upset about something else. Or, when you call and I hear you voice I get upset." Instead...I get the denial and switch to NG mode. 

I know understand this clearly. 

Now we are beginning to understand.."I am married to a Nice Guy." (going on sale soon). Now what?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW I don't know - maybe I get it but I am still disapointed - always disapointed...that he indulges this side of himself with me...
I think the sequel wil be
Surviving Separation: When Mr Nice Guy turns out to be not so nice!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I am a little perplexed on this NG thing.. I thought that was a good thing?? How is he being a NG doing this to his family. I think its more immaturity and Mid-Life Crisis.. I see somebody who thinks they are trapped and can't appreciate what they have. Somebody looking foe something missing in their life.. I am wondering how long it takes though.. How long have you gone without contacting him?? Also, I don't remember if you said that you are going through the divorce process at all.. It might be a way of turning things around IF you filled first.. I know it's scary as I could never have but it does sometimes snap people out of it..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH, NG aren't really _nice_, well it's hard to say what is nice and what is not because the problem with them is that they hate confrontation /dealing with things - so they 'act' nice/easy going/ they say 'you decide'....but if they don't really agree they end up resenting you and they never mention this resentment until it boils up and makes a terrible mess for everyone....so they are nice - but the problem is that they'd rather act nice than hurt your feelings DIRECTLY - it is not correct to say they don't hurt you - they do - but they just do it so indirectly....
so they are very nice and fun and easy going when they agree /are happy - the problems really start when they want to say no - at the end of the day I think it's because they can't find their own power...it comes at a huge personal cost -
at the end of the day they have spent so many years being emotionally dishonest that they don't really know what honesty is....
I believe (as does CW that we have been married to good people...- but because they are so 'incongruent' with themselves it is all a mess).....
fast forwarding to a divorce would be good for me I think - it would give me closure - but it wouldn't help bring him back...
his resentment is deep - I think he resents me for somehow not _guessing _he really didn't want to be with years ago and letting him go then......
total mess up -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

k: You said it! D8zed said it's was "emotional dishonesty." It his the nail on the head for me. 

Imagine living in their shoes. Unable to say what you want or feel? How to get past that?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

CW,

I don't think it is immaturity. But it is emotional dishonesty for sure. The saddest thing is that you do it to the people you care for the most. Because in your mind it is protecting them from you when it really is pushing them away. How do you get past that? Time, practicing the exercises in the book and making it natural.

LH, it isn't about being truly Nice. It is giving so much to avoid confrontation that you lose yourself. You don't know who you really are. I know I'm not sure who I am now.

I just couldn't be confrontational and I couldn't explain why. Even to my counselor. I need to talk to her about this phenomenom of the Nice Guy.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Oh and CW, it is nice to see someone actually thinking about the other side and trying to see it from their perspective. That is the difference between you and my w. She doesn't care to do that, just do it my way type of thing.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> I just couldn't be confrontational and I couldn't explain why. Even to my counselor. I need to talk to her about this phenomenom of the Nice Guy.


Cauton: Be prepared for your counselor (a female) to nod knowingly at you when you start talking about the NG stuff but she probably won't completely understand it FROM A MALE'S PERSPECTIVE.

My advice is:

1. If you keep the same counselor, ask her if she'd read the book.

2. If you decide to change counselors, try to find a male who is familiar with NGS.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Good point d8zd!

It's a fairly new perspective...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys this is a total panic post..it is Saturday morning and have taken kids to baseball - in so MUCH pain - it was the best part of our week when we were together - 
I feel like i ma doing fine and I get down there and yeeks - I am a mess can't even look at him without crying...............


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Man! It's amazing how these things can just HIT you. It's like...this is never going to happen again (us together). It's heartwrenching...

I guess you H is at the baseball park as well? Man..that is difficult considering you are not talking much. 

Just try to put on a smile and say "hello." Talk to others, cheer on your kids, and have a good time. Then...privately (later) start a crying binge! You know it will make you feel better.

I hate this for you for us. I want to kick and scream "it ain't fair." 

Take a breath. Let us know how it went.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I concur with CW. I'm glad I coach my son's baseball and soccer teams this fall. Keeps my mind away from her when she is there. I can focus on the game and what is going on - cause that is my job when I'm there.

Also, I love coaching the kids. I love seeing all of them progress from where we start the season. Makes me feel good. Have to be a little stern, but have fun too.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Well I am through it - 
keep on thinking 'get through' just get through...I said hello - but not goodbye...
didn't talk to too many folk and ran into a pole (with my head - not the car) so have a huge bump and bruise now on forehead! 

I think aside from just the family things of sport I see the very best parts of J at these things...he is so admired as a coach and he is so kind and lovely to the kids - 

it is the beautiful image that I am still so in love with - and of course the way he looks - the sound of his voice - the whole bit ..and just being so proud of him - 

and knowing that aint the side he wants to show me anymore -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

OMG: The pole thing killed me. Sorry, but I've done the same thing! Just when you thought you were being smoooooth...

When you see him doing this...what do you see? You see him doing something that he enjoys. You find it attractive right?

Same thing with J. He will find you attractive when you aren't trying and you are doing something you enjoy.

I try to keep this in mind around my H. However, when separated the opportunities are scarce. 

I have a friend whose wife was hopeless OUT of the marriage (affairs, no longer attracted to him, no longer in love). After 2 years of fighting for this marriage....he gives up. Put notice on the house to vacate and finds another place (cheaper) for the family. He tells her he's moving with the kids and she can find somewhere else to live. GUESS WHAT! She is shaping up and changing and admits to wanting to stay in the marriage. He has totally given up. Totally didn't care what she thougt about him anymore. He doesn't trust her and that will take time. She needs to prove herself. 

To tell you the truth. I've known them since I was a kid. They've been married for 20 years. The last 2 years have been bad. I NEVER would have thought that they'd come together again. In private, she told me she can't be attracted to him and wants to be friends, etc. She was going crazy like our H's....worse. Time and patience can changed things. You never know what the next year will bring. 

Not that it will bring out H's back...who knows. It's like I am living on this other planet where my life was left somewhere else.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

THANK you CW - that was a wonderful and insightful post -
you are so right!
It is his world - and he is star of it -
and yes it's very attractive -

but you are also correct 
he doesn't get to see me indulging my passions and being happy anymore....

so not a whole lot of luck there either!

but the pole thing was funny - just after I ran into it passed a dad from school - i pretended I didn't see him because I was REALLy crying by that stage and have lost sunglasses (the separated woman's best friend!) but of course he made a point of saying hi, how are you...and I felt like such a dweeb - crying stumbling along - what a LOSER!

and can I join you on that other planet?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: To add more description to your pole incident adds more laughter!!! The lost sunglasses and all...you have a great sense of humor. 

The planet seems to be gaining numbers..you are more than welcome!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

knortoh said:


> LH, NG aren't really _nice_, well it's hard to say what is nice and what is not because the problem with them is that they hate confrontation /dealing with things - so they 'act' nice/easy going/ they say 'you decide'....but if they don't really agree they end up resenting you and they never mention this resentment until it boils up and makes a terrible mess for everyone....so they are nice - but the problem is that they'd rather act nice than hurt your feelings DIRECTLY - it is not correct to say they don't hurt you - they do - but they just do it so indirectly....
> so they are very nice and fun and easy going when they agree /are happy - the problems really start when they want to say no - at the end of the day I think it's because they can't find their own power...it comes at a huge personal cost -
> at the end of the day they have spent so many years being emotionally dishonest that they don't really know what honesty is....
> I believe (as does CW that we have been married to good people...- but because they are so 'incongruent' with themselves it is all a mess).....
> ...



So its more like a Passive-Aggressive person then??


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Actually LH -

yes , well I think so, 
I know my psychologist has used this term with me about my H, although she hasn't used passive aggressive - but when I researched PA he ticks about every box...

I don't know what the difference is except I am guessing without having read the book but having checked out the website that it is a more 'gender-based' type....and that it has something to do with our particualr world at the moment and how men have difficulty being 'men'. 

D8zed seems to be our resident expert! Just wish I would have know this earlier....

I am proud of myself just had a friendly conversation with my H on the phone. This was after being so upset this morning...very proud.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH,

It is and isn't passive aggressive. Some NG's are only NG's in personal situations. Some are in everything they do. But the bottom line seems to be that for whatever reason, they put the ones they love on a pedestal. Avoid confrontation due to a variety of reasons - fear of rejection, fear of what they might say in response to someone else's statements. It is hard to describe simply.

Suffice it to say that I became one with my wife. I placed her on a pedestal and diminished myself. Over time I just didn't want to rock the boat with her. Now when we were dating I wasn't like that. I'm not sure why I changed, I just did. I believe some of it is my w's personality, some of it is me trying to be what I though is a good husband instead of just being me. Over time I lost myself.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> LH,
> 
> It is and isn't passive aggressive. Some NG's are only NG's in personal situations. Some are in everything they do. But the bottom line seems to be that for whatever reason, they put the ones they love on a pedestal. Avoid confrontation due to a variety of reasons - fear of rejection, fear of what they might say in response to someone else's statements. It is hard to describe simply.
> 
> Suffice it to say that I became one with my wife. I placed her on a pedestal and diminished myself. Over time I just didn't want to rock the boat with her. Now when we were dating I wasn't like that. I'm not sure why I changed, I just did. I believe some of it is my w's personality, some of it is me trying to be what I though is a good husband instead of just being me. Over time I lost myself.


FA 
when I talk to my counsellor about my H she says that he couldn't find his 'power' and the problems arose only when he wanted to say NO...
minor resentments built up over time - and build up and build up ....
I am certain that my H was also motivated by the idea of being a 'good' husband - 'playing the role of a good husband' at the cost of not being true to himself...

My H says he just never wanted to hurt me - and when we went to MC - the MC said that he thought we were 'phobic' about hurting eachother.....

what a mess! 

but in your case it hasn't stopped you loving your wife - in my case it led to my H not loving me -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You have a good counselor K. She is insightful regarding your H. It makes sense. 

My H was "phobic" and still is a great deal regarding "being mean" towards me. "Being mean" is when he wants to tell me something less than flattering about our relationship. Hence, I never got the full story.

K: That must the most difficult thing...thinking your mariage was a lie. That he never loved you. I can't believe that is true. If there were horrible conditions in the marriage-yes. But to say "NEVER." I just can't believe it. Something is up. He's can questioned his love but never loved. Then, I think he is clueless regardless what love is.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeah, it is messed up. Yes my love of her and fear of her rejecting me was what turned me into an NG. It is clear to me know. But isn't it funny that me adoring her was what she wanted in the beginning and now isn't. She is doomed to repeat this over and over.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW - that is where I am now - 


he was nice guy from the beginning and therefore didn't want to tell me that he didn't love me - he starts playing a role - trying to do his best - never feels right - finally turns 40 - drops the act...

that's his version I think...

most people who know us don't believe this to be that case I think.

most people say it is just not possible to saty in loveless marriage so long...


I think the conclusions that I am coming to are

1. J was always going to have issues with emotional honesty - his damaged upbringing saw to that - this means that he feels like he is playing a role all the time...but up until the last couple of years it was a role he _wanted_ to play - 

2. the combination of meeting OW and turning 40 meant that he asked himself whether this was the only role he would play in his life - and he said no - I want to try something else - don't know what ....just get me out of this one - it hurts like hell!!!!!!!!!

3. now he doesn't he doesn't want to play any roles at all - but he doesn't have a clue about what that would mean /look like...

4. he thinks a key is not caring about whether you are popular - hence 

"I am not very popular at my new school but I don't care" - it is that clumsy...

5. thinks I'm an ******* for leaving K but I don't care.... 

this time it's about ME and my happiness not hers - I put hers ahead of mine ....no more 

At the same time he does feel guilty and sad and he misses me etc....

HE does love me CW - he is connected to me - deeply -
and that's why he is gulity and sad etc...

but as everyone says love is a choice and he chooses not to love me anymore ...didn't work , wasn't right. didn't make him feel good....

and me understanding him, knowing him, loving him and forgiving him doesn't change this - 

does this make sense to you?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes. They are quite juvenile in their thinking aren't they?

For the first time, in his life, he feels empowered by "going alone" but doesn't know how to do it the right way. Doesn't know which direction to go-other than out. He's out. Now what?

I would seriously give him the NG book. If he's searching...maybe it will bring things together for him. Maybe not. Can't hurt.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah , he loves self-help books -
guess it wouldn't hurt....
I just assume he is working through this stuff with counsellor....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I agree with Corpus at this point K. Give him the book because it can't hurt the situation. He did love and does love you, he just doens't know who he is. See post on the Real World to you.

It is what it is. I have so much hope for you K and CW. Your guys will figure it out. It might take a while, but both of you are strong and sane. Can't say the same about my w. But don't worry about me, I will be ok. She won't, I will be.................

I just don't want my son to be a NG. THank goodness I am beginning to understand what this is so I can prevent that. I believe she would mold him into one.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It will be interesting where we are a year from now. 

FA: Your son will learn alot from you. How do you thing you can teach emotional honesty to a 6 year old? What ideas do you have?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Well, its not totally about "emotional dishonesty" that is the result. I will focus on the causes. Shyness around others at times, etc.. 

I think that is what builds. Being comfortable with who he wants to be and not what "I would want him to be". So just encourage him, tell that his best is enough and see where that leads. 

Your thoughts?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - I think in terms of kids just letting them be who they want to be - and do what makes them feel good is the best - you are an aware parent with lots of love for your son....

I am one of 7 kids and my parents honestly couldn't care what we 'did' in our lives...education, no education....well paid, poorly paid - we are loved regardless -

it's just loving them unconditionally without being stifling ..

I have never realised what a gift this was -

I know that you said the whole NG thing started with your W but for my H it goes much further back - and it is entrenched in his professional personna as well... 

he grew up with a mad and domineering mother, 6 smart sisters and an estrnaged father - 

relationships with women were always going to be tricky...

are you the NG at work?

do you have lots of female friends?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

FA: I think it's a perfect way to approach your son. He'll do just fine and when you model to him your honesty then he will "get it." Of course the father/son relationship is different than the H/W. 

K: My family didn't care about the things/education that you did either. I was loved and was very close to my Grandmother that gave me uncoditional love at the nth degree. It is a true gift. My G always built me up!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys it is my H's birthday tomorrow - 
1 year since my nightmare began...time goes so slow and fast...
I am all at sea tonight -
can't decide whether I should contact him for his birthday???

To put it in persepctive I'll mention that he actually FORGOT mine this year - it was a week after he'd left for the 2nd time!
Really I know he is self-centred at the moment but even I was shocked....hadn't taken kids to get me a present or anything...

Anyway I know he won't be expecting anything even a call from me - he's in his "I don't deserve anything mode"...

I don't know I feel like I am getting so confused again - talking about him all the time probably isn't good for me 

I need to move on....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

I'm sure I was a NG a lot longer in some ways. It is just that I believe her personaily really brought it out in ways I never allowed with other people. 

Well since we got married - no because of her jealousy. She I was thinking of her feeling, knowing how that would make her feel so I didn't.

And yes I had a mother who was demanding with a father who didn't say anything. The household was don't rock the boat and don't talk about feelings.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA Oh yes I forgot - it is when you really love someone and care about their opinion that this starts to develop - or gets mre intense
My H said that I was the one person he never wanted to hurt in life...
we all set out with such good intentions


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

That is what makes it emotionally dishonest. You dont want to hurt the one you love - probably a good thing - but then you aren't yourself or voice yourself - the dishonest part.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, can you send him a happy birthday e-mail or an e-card? That way you acknowledge the day without directly speaking to him.
I know you feel confused but it's just part of the healing. Give yourself a break.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks Wren 
that's good advice - I am hard on myself -
I'll see how I feel tomorrow - if I can send it in good faith I will - if I am feeling bitter and sad I'll leave it - don't think it's a biggie either way!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

knortoh said:


> FA Oh yes I forgot - it is when you really love someone and care about their opinion that this starts to develop - or gets mre intense
> My H said that I was the one person he never wanted to hurt in life...
> we all set out with such good intentions


Everybody has the good intentions.. Problem is if he is living for you and so worried about hurting you that he isn't enjoying how he feels. With that means he's not connected to you so seperation is very easy. It's a way of being safe.. Love is NEVER safe if you throw yourself into it.. It's a double edge sword. It can give you all the best but it cuts so hard when hurt.. I will take that over not feeling it..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I agree with Wren. Just a little something like the ecard would be good. And if you don't want to send anything that is fine too because you are right it isn't a biggie.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

You are right LH. Good intentions. For NG's the fear of rejection or approval seeking overwhelms those. Unbelievable that it takes going through something like I am and finding this forum to discover that. Well better late than never.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> Everybody has the good intentions.. Problem is if he is living for you and so worried about hurting you that he isn't enjoying how he feels. With that means he's not connected to you so seperation is very easy. It's a way of being safe.. Love is NEVER safe if you throw yourself into it.. It's a double edge sword. It can give you all the best but it cuts so hard when hurt.. I will take that over not feeling it..


Thanks LH you always have such a clear way of looking at this stuff - it's all that expressing that you do - are you sure you're not a woman??

But on a more serious note you are right - love isn't safe if you throw yourself in but at least we will die knowing that we ahve loved and are capable of loving...

I think I have posted this before but I was shocked to hear my H say that he was 'jealous' of the love I had for him - he wants to feel that...
he was jealous of my capacity to love him - and to add insult to injury he thinks he will develop that capacity with someone else -
so 'my love' is the measure .....of what he hasn't got..........
you just can't win !


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

Thinking seriously about what your H said I believe that is NG. He loves you, but can't let go totally due to his fear of rejection. So it isn't complete in his mind. That is what he is jealous of that you are safe with him to give your love totally and without fear. When he says develop it with someone else he isn't understanding that it won't be there either unless he addresses his problems. Hope I'm making sense here.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - I had to read your post a few times - but it does make sense to me....the way that he has spoken about us is that he has always had 'reservations' and 'doubts' I had wondered whether this meant that he had always held himself 'in reserve'....

I think he has. I think what he is thinking is that with someone else he may have less doubts and hence feel less reserved..heck I don't know ...different people can awaken different things in us can't they?

But I guess what you are saying is that these 'reservations' are due to a fear of being close ( he has also made that comment ) and so the next time he comes close to feeling 'love' he will more than likely start withdrawing?

The MC tried to take a similiar line with him - he asked him what he thought of me with someone else etc...and my H still says that he can't stand the idea (of me with another man) in fact it turns out he spent much of our relationship 'imagining' I was having affairs etc...easily prone to jealousy when I have had none....

But at the end of the day he considered this argument and came up with the one that he doesn't love me ....the thing is he thought about it for a long time already and has been seeing a psychologist all the way through - 

so I can't really say he isn't trying to work things out....and I feel like I am in denial if I just keep on saying 
but he's wrong, he does love me...blah blah blah...

I feel like I am just being arrogant and unable to entertain the idea that someone could fall out of love with me....

so glad I can write this stuff out - get it out....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Not a fear of being close - but of you rejecting him. You leaving him for who he is if he let you in completely. Afraid that you wouldn't really like him. I guess he was jealous as well. 

I was never jealous nor did I have thoughts of my w with another man until an OM showed up. But my wife probably wanted me to show some jealousy. It does in a strange way show your love for the other. My brother describes her as little bit "white trash" mentality. She like conflict for conflicts sake. Makes her the center of attention. I just didn't do it.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

knortoh said:


> Thanks LH you always have such a clear way of looking at this stuff - it's all that expressing that you do - are you sure you're not a woman??
> 
> But on a more serious note you are right - love isn't safe if you throw yourself in but at least we will die knowing that we ahve loved and are capable of loving...
> 
> ...


Don't listen to him. It's a fantasy in his head. He will NEVER achieve that cause he's not ready to feel that. It wants to bad. I can tell from your post yet he's not capable. Key is for him to realize you are the one he needs to get there with. It is exactly what I am trying to do with my wife. 

I am far from a women but since I was raised by my mother I got a lot of the traits women usually get. Would you believe my wife has called me cold?? Mainly cause I can handle difficult situations without out being emotionally attached. I know it sounds wierd. Like if I lose a close person to death I won't cry cause I accept the result. I feel bad but don't lose it. Yet I am amess if I lose my wife. So I guess I am cold to others except my inner circle.. Not sure I understand it.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> Not a fear of being close - but of you rejecting him. You leaving him for who he is if he let you in completely. Afraid that you wouldn't really like him. I guess he was jealous as well.
> 
> I was never jealous nor did I have thoughts of my w with another man until an OM showed up. But my wife probably wanted me to show some jealousy. It does in a strange way show your love for the other. My brother describes her as little bit "white trash" mentality. She like conflict for conflicts sake. Makes her the center of attention. I just didn't do it.


Jealousy is only present when insecurity is there. I told the wife I never checked her phone before she did this.. Why?? Cause I had nothing to worry about. When she started acting secretly I was checking her every now and then. When we feel the one slipping away we love its a panic something is going on..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> Not a fear of being close - but of you rejecting him. You leaving him for who he is if he let you in completely. Afraid that you wouldn't really like him. I guess he was jealous as well.
> 
> I was never jealous nor did I have thoughts of my w with another man until an OM showed up. But my wife probably wanted me to show some jealousy. It does in a strange way show your love for the other. My brother describes her as little bit "white trash" mentality. She like conflict for conflicts sake. Makes her the center of attention. I just didn't do it.


Oh ok I have to think about this one - I have never thought of it in this way - fear that I would reject him - 

I know that my C has said that she thinks he's going through an adolescent stage - that I was the good mother he didn't have and that he has to leave me and find himself ...he sure is acting like an adolescent ...

FA your w sounds like hard work....a high maintenance woman am I correct?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

In some ways yes, in others no. The weirdest thing about her is that she wants to be with someone, but doesn't want to be responsible. I never demanded she cook, clean or other things. She really didn't cook much. I did as much as her and helped with cleaning, laundry, etc. Of course since I had lived on my own for so long prior I did all of this for me so I naturally just did it. But it never seemed enough for her.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> In some ways yes, in others no. The weirdest thing about her is that she wants to be with someone, but doesn't want to be responsible. I never demanded she cook, clean or other things. She really didn't cook much. I did as much as her and helped with cleaning, laundry, etc. Of course since I had lived on my own for so long prior I did all of this for me so I naturally just did it. But it never seemed enough for her.


My wife was the same.. Plus she would only love me if I took care of her. If I didn't I got nothing.. She never was on her own. Neither was I but I took the role of protector and never stopped.. Now I am giving her the freedom. It has helpped her see herself.. Keep it up eventually she has to face it..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH,

No she is feeling that void with OM now. Only when his marriage implodes over this will she not have someone in that role.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You are, again, lined up in my thinking. The comment regarding if you are in denial that he could fall out of love with you....grabbed me. I feel the same way. Are we fooling ourselves? Either way..we still have to be the best us and move forward. No matter what the reasons we are given no choice. I just don't think we are...

It's strange to spend all of these years building a family unit. After 24 years...to spend all of that time to build it up and the fact that we couldn't maintain it. Wow! How to unravel all of this is mindblowing.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Keep going strong K and CW. You both are strong, thinking and good people. Not "nice" but good. That is the difference. I don't believe either of you are "fooling yourselves".


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

FA: Thank you for that comment...I sure hope we aren't "fooling ourselves."


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K: You are, again, lined up in my thinking. The comment regarding if you are in denial that he could fall out of love with you....grabbed me. I feel the same way. Are we fooling ourselves? Either way..we still have to be the best us and move forward. No matter what the reasons we are given no choice. I just don't think we are...
> 
> It's strange to spend all of these years building a family unit. After 24 years...to spend all of that time to build it up and the fact that we couldn't maintain it. Wow! How to unravel all of this is mindblowing.



CW 
I know - I think it's because we are just similiar people whose lives are somehow aligned - a kind of coincidence and just lucky part of that coincidence was 'finding' one another in cyber world, or anonymous land as FA calls it! 

I really _am _confused about this one - (being in denial) 
I spoke to my counsellor about it a bit...about having the gut feeling that he 'loves' me and would come back - she said she thought I was probably correct - but she also said (in my case) it would lead to more of the same of what I was subjected to when he came back the first time - his confusion is deep and won't be resolved quickly - - not for many years....
so that is where the hopeless feeling comes in - 

and you are so so correct at the end of the day we have been given no choice - it's all about us now - who we are as individuals - and neither of us knows where that will take us either - 

I always like what you say about it being a process and it isn't linear...I am slowly getting closer to being who I think I am -
and that means that I can accept things a bit better

the very tricky thing for us CW (or maybe just for me because to be honest you seem clearer on this than me) is asking ourselves what sort of relationship we want with this guys now and into the future....

and to be honest the other tricky thing is to avoid having some misguided notion that I can influence him in anyway -

at least that is where I am at...

I am done fighting that's for sure - he wants freedom he can have it...

and all we can do is concentrate on ourselves - 

it will be _very_ interesting to see where we are in a year's time


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I think our guys are past the point of being influenced. At one point, they were highly influenced by us. The NG syndrome to please. Now..they are finding their own way. 

I KNOW I don't want my H back as he was....even prior to his crisis state (pre-OCT). I've changed and no longer willing to accept a shallow man. I don't expect an extremely deep person. Just someone willing to dig beneath the surface. 

Your C is right in that they will have years of work. Not that they won't come back prior to the work being done. We are always learning. However, I don't think they will be ready for awhile.

I am going to have a relationship with my H as long as it benefits ME! If he's ugly or angry or unappreciative it won't be MY problem-it's his. On the other hand, if I feel like bringing him over chili when I drop off my D (like today) and he's appreciative...then great. I wanted to do it and he like it. I'm not holding back too much..just doing what I feel is best and beneficial. If it starts hurting-then I won't do it. 

Funny thing, even in a divorce there are no rules. I have friends ask me "you did what?" They are picturing an ugly divorce-this isn't it. It's not me or my nature. His either. We're different. He's just f'd up!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K:
> I am going to have a relationship with my H as long as it benefits ME! If he's ugly or angry or unappreciative it won't be MY problem-it's his. On the other hand, if I feel like bringing him over chili when I drop off my D (like today) and he's appreciative...then great. I wanted to do it and he like it. I'm not holding back too much..just doing what I feel is best and beneficial. If it starts hurting-then I won't do it.
> 
> Funny thing, even in a divorce there are no rules. I have friends ask me "you did what?" They are picturing an ugly divorce-this isn't it. It's not me or my nature. His either. We're different. He's just f'd up!



CW as usual you are the voice of reason and what you say I just seem to hear with such clarity...

Yes precisely have the relationship _I_ want with him ...as long as it benefits me and doesn't hurt me ....
you are brilliant! 

And as for the no rules thing you are correct - 
I remmeber having that conversation with my H before he left - saying this is 'our' separation we can do it however we want...
and I believed that - but now I just have to be clearer about it is my separation....sure I didn't want it but still I can deal with how I want - 

ahhh I am seeing how we get our power back (well I don't think you ever lost yours!) 

THANK YOU CW -
so much for me to think about and work on


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I've never been called brilliant! Thanks for the confidence boost.

It's refreshing to hear people take control of their lives when in the not-do-distanct future...things seems out of control. I sooooo felt that way. 

I'm a simple girl with simple thoughts. If it hurts don't do it! ha


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Not simple CW, emotionally strong. Go girl.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Part of the unconditional love is loving my H through the divorce!

It's true I really do love him without strings...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

It's hurts though doesn't it?
I love my H as well - they are good people and we know this 
I am feeling very ratty today - struggling with it being his birthday - I haven't texted him or anything - I will see him at baseball training and I have bought him a cake (drew the line at baking one!) 
gee it hurts today -


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I have found out it's easier to love unconditionally when you don't expect anything in return cause your not going to get it. Yet when things start to improve you want it. In fact you need it. It is part of that human nature of wanting to be loved by somebody. I love my wife no matter what she does but now I am yearning for her love. This is a hard battle. Now CW you are so ahead of the game. YOu have been fighting in a good way and nothing your husband does effects you in front of him. You are so strong... I hope he wakes up eventually..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: This would be a difficult day for me. Heck all of the holidays and birthdays are difficult (the last year). Good for you and buying the cake. I'm sure he is thinking that nothing will happen on his b-day regarding your side. I would be like your K....I couldn't let the day go by with nothing said or done (not me). However, in a fleeting glimpse of anger I think...he deserves for nothing to happen.

LH: You're totally right. Loving unconditionally and expecting nothing. I'm there. It makes it easier to do the unconditional thing after you have kids. They can be brats and you still love them. Sort of like our spouses!

I picture what my life is going to look like in a month or 6 weeks...when the divorce is final. Mostly because it will help me come to terms. I feel like I am leaving him behind even though he's the one wanting the divorce.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

CW See I could never see my life without my wife... No way would I want that to happen.. I know in my heart I am the best man for her. Her family tells me that. I know she can be he best women for me once she lets go and becomes a women.. This is why you ware so ahead of the game. You can see the what if and plan for the worst. It's a good thing when you control your emotions. Mine well I can't..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH: Don't sell yourself short. You have controlled your emotions. Maybe not to the degree that you wanted or to the same degree that I have. You have certainly allowed your wife time and space. Nobody's perfect in this relationship game.

I have no choice but to picture my H. He isn't doing this for attention. He takes care of his business and right now the divorce is business. I'm like that as well. We have build our lives this way...not letting much fall to the wayside.....EXCEPT our marriage. (oops). It's unbelievable how you can have friendship, teamwork, dramafree, hardlyfighting, goodmom/gooddad, decent sex life (pre-1 year problem mark), financially same page, good health, and still want a divorce, professed love for each other, and still have a divorce pending. It's amazing to me.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes it seems like something from bizarro world to me. That is why I know the problem lies inside of him. He will eventually figure that out.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys you would be proud of me -
I saw my H at baseball - gave him the cake and a kiss and wished him happy birthday - he looked a complete mess! guilt isn't attractive..but guess what I felt fine - absolutely -
CW think that I am chanelling you..
feel like this is a big step for me -


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Good job. Keep going.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

> I am going to have a relationship with my H as long as it benefits ME! If he's ugly or angry or unappreciative it won't be MY problem-it's his.


knortoh,

This is a good example of 'detaching from the outcome'. CW knows she has to create a life for herself that is not dependent on her H. Yes, she would love for her marriage to be restored but that doesn't drive her actions. 

BTW, I wouldn't have done anything for my H's b-day and I don't think he expected it. I'm willing to bet the cake made him feel more guilt. If it doesn't matter, that's fine. And I'm not trying to beat you up - just giving you his possible perspective.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

No worries d8zed - i appreciate the comment....
it was from the kids - 
and to be honest for the kids 
I am sure just seeing me makes him feel guilty and so I am not at all worried about adding to it....
I did it for me and for the kids and it made me feel good - honestly -

I have been thinking about the detached from the outcome stuff and isn't this just a version of what life is anyway?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I have been thinking about the detached from the outcome stuff and isn't this just a version of what life is anyway?


Can you expound on that?

To take the CW example one step further, if it doesn't matter if the marriage is restored or not, then that is true detachment. She is detached from the outcome. She is doing things that she feels are in HER best interests with no apparent ulterior motives. She is letting things (life) unfold without any manipulation on her part. She will feel good about the outcome no matter what it is.

The NG book talks about "covert contracts". A very simple example is a person saying "I love you" expecting the other person to say "I love you too" in return. If they do not respond that way, we feel hurt or wonder if they really DO love us.

NGs are famous for covert contracts and can use them to manipulate people and situations to get what they want. Just be careful you don't do the same thing - if *I* do this, then *HE* will do this.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Well d8zed I can honestly say that I have always generally had a pretty 'light' take on life - 
by that I mean I have never worked much to plans or master narratives - have been pleased pretty much with what life has offered me and taken up opportunities - 
I am not goal orientated...

I think I know what you are talking about though - the hidden contract... 

but I would say that for most people when we say "I love you" we kind of do expect it back - this is not the same as saying it so that we can hear it back - not at all -
more like when you look at someone you expect that your gaze will be returned....

but I do love my H - and as far as I know myself I am not motivated by the expectation that if I do certain things he will 'love me' in return...

but I can't say I am completley selfless nor on top of this stuff I am stillworking through it 

for me it has more to do with the fact that I want to feel as though I can live my life according to the same 'accepting' principles that I lived by when what life offered me was more explicitly what I anyway wanted....

I am not 'there' yet - but when my H left I was distraught because i felt he had left and 'stolen' our philosophy...
our approach to life....

anyway I am rambling and possibly not making any sense...

not at all certain that all my motivations are noble either -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: It feels good huh???!!! The key is whatever your H felt or you thought he felt was it didn't matter. It was YOUR gift and you wanted to do it because if made you feel good. The rest and how he "took" it was his problem. 

D8zd: You are sooooo smart. How you write is incredibly insightful and profound for me. You JUST make sense. You are dead on being aware that you aren't expecting anything in return...it backfires on you if you do. For me, it's total freedom and confidence. VERY empowering.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I think so many people confuse the "in love" feeling and loving somebody. The "in love" feeling comes and goes with time. if you work at keeping that feeling there it's a live and well. If you don't it fades and disappears. Now it can come back after it's gone but somebody has to change to get it to come back. IE starting making an effort to "LOVE" them.. Now loe on the other hand is a deeper emotion thats there all the time. It's in your thoughts and actions everyday. You are at the grocery store and you see something your husband would love to have and you buy it cuase you know it will make him feel good. Too many times people run their relationships with the "in love" feeling and when that goes they think they should move on. Yet when they try the deep love kicks in and confuses them..  This is why affairs happen so often cause they need to fill that void with something. Hence lust.. I could go on but I think you get the picture.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey LH you know this - we know this - it's our H's that are missing the point....
so sad too bad!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

And our exWs.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Can you email it to them?? :rofl: Maybe draw a picture for the ones that don't want to read??


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K:
> 
> I picture what my life is going to look like in a month or 6 weeks...when the divorce is final. Mostly because it will help me come to terms. I feel like I am leaving him behind even though he's the one wanting the divorce.


CW do you mind me asking how you do picture things?
Can I ask are you picturing 'real' things - houses, jobs, friends, experices or more vague 'how you will be' ...

I am struggling with the future - but I think that may be partly to do with the fact that none of the financial stuff is sorted and I am not sure where I'll be living and workwise etc. Still so much to sort. 

I guess my desire to make my own future will drive me to sort things?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I guess my "picture" is my life....

My house and how I want to decorate.
My job and what I want but know I will need to maybe settle for now (economy).
My friends..have more get togethers. I don't feel comfortable with havng many over as it's still OUR house. 
If I can handle a date? Or do I want to.
Handling my budget. What do I need. Will I save?

It's like preparing myself for life. I am a serious planner and it makes me feel better to at least have a plan and know that I may have to change it. That's ok. It's like the people who organize their closet and feel better. 

I saw my H at the seawall this afternoon. He went for a run with some mutual friends. Had a small chat with them. I was walking. I still love him but am disappointed how he can just let our "family" go. I respect him but I don't. It's strange. I guess the part that I don't respect is that he didn't speak up to me along time ago...he still can't speak up to me. He's FROZEN. 

I am sorry to say...but as soon as he has a crisis (medical, financial, personal or some sort) that doesn't have anything to do with me. He will appreciate the fact that I was his wife. I'll be there for him but he will learn about deep relationships. He doesn't have any.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K:
> 
> I still love him but am disappointed how he can just let our "family" go. I respect him but I don't. It's strange. I guess the part that I don't respect is that he didn't speak up to me along time ago...


CW I could have written these words. Exactly how I feel.

I am sorry to say...but as soon as he has a crisis (medical, financial, personal or some sort) that doesn't have anything to do with me. He will appreciate the fact that I was his wife. I'll be there for him but he will learn about deep relationships. He doesn't have any.

I think my H is lucky in that he has lots of siblings, sisters who love him - he has emotional support from them - I think he feels closer to them than to me - so I don't my H will suffer too much. Don't think he needs me much at all except around the kids...but he seems fine with that as well...

I feel completely superfluous in his life - something extra that just draggged him down and that he didn't need - somthing he can so easily do without...it hurts not to feel needed. 

You know I am plagued today about thinking about what I did to contribute to the end of my own relationship....

It's like I want to own up - confess - but I don't know what to confess to...

I have asked my counsellor - she said something like "you fell in love and were willing to overlook potential issues because of other good qualities"....

I can't tell you how sad I feel about this...it's like regretting something that you can't name - and this hurts so much as well...

you know everyone talks about working on yourself etc - and sometimes I don't get that either - 
it feels kind of narcissistic - 

truth is I still feel so very lost.

a few years ago when I finished my MA thesis I wrote

This is dedicated to J, Vince and Ray who give me my sense of place".....

what hurts the most is this - no more sense of place.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

"but am disappointed how he can just let our "family" go."

CW and knortoh...

What do you mean exactly by that statement? As you know, I struggle with issues related to breaking up the family and hurting the children. Statements like the one above reinforce my decisions not to do anything. That's why I ask.

Thanks.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D8zed, I do know some of how you are struggling with this 
but in my case at least the reason why I am disapointed is because our family life was good (for me and the kids) ....
now it wasn't what I thought it was - but in many ways J and I had a good relationship (we were kind and considerate, we had good sex life, we loved each other's families, admired eachother, ...) 
I know it wasn't 'doin it for him' and he was suffering but in my case and I think CW's we would have liked to be given the choice to help our H's through their difficulties...
and yes I do value the old fashioned family life - it was what I wanted for my kids...
but when my H told me hadn't loved me for 10 years - guess what - I said "well you'd better leave...." - I never tried to make him stay if he was sure he didn't want to be there - in fact the 2nd time I had to beg him to leave -

he didn't want to take responsibility.

it wasn't what I wanted but I thought it was the honest thing to do for our family 

the only time I tried to talk him into staying was when he said he was genuinely confused - 

so I feel I'd like to make two points 
1. the dispaointment is around the fact that our H's didn't believe in the family enough to help him through things

2. when I felt my H was really suffering in the marriage and didn't want to be there I said go 

this is very different to what I know of your situation - which isn't healthy for you...

what I am trying to say is that you always talk about your own emotional dishonesty but your w isn't playing fair ....

but I still think your point is valid perhaps a better way that I could put it would be that I am disapointed that my family wasn't robust enough to keep my H feeling happy - I was disapointed that he didn't find it as sustaining as I did....

I just think you need to start holding your w to the same standards that you hold your self to and not let yourself be blackmailed...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You make an interesting point on "what you could have done different" in regards to you role. Maybe we could have not enabled their NG behavior? Perhaps asked few more questions...although I gotta say. 

Just going out to dinner or simple decisions could be frustrating. Him "Where do you want to do to dinner?" Me "I don't care really..I picked last time. Where do you want?" Him "I don't care." Me "really just not hamburgers...anywhere is fine. Your choice." Him "I don't know." Me "How about Mexican." Him (makes a face) "Ok that sounds good." It was exhausting!

I wonder what your H's sisters have to say about his departure?

D8zd: I agree with K. The "letting or family go" has to do with the point where they were ready to leave they were DONE. Not willing to do much as far as working back into the marriage. K and I would have done anything to salvage our marriage. The fact that they couldn't speak up before they wanted out..was frustrating an unfair. 
Our relationships were, of course, different then yours. Is your W willing to work or willing to change anything? Are you willing to change?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Our relationships were, of course, different then yours. Is your W willing to work or willing to change anything? Are you willing to change?


According to W, I am 80-90% responsible for our marriage problems. Is she willing to change? Not so much since she doesn't have any issues (according to her). Am I willing to change? I've changed enough - to the point I no longer have any dignity. No thanks.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Do you think D8zd that you will be able to regain your dignity and have the life that you want? Are you at that point?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW just on the what could I have done differently thing - I can remember times when I thought - I can't get through to him - I am not even going to try...I do remember some sort of 'giving up' feeling....
but I also remember when he did 'open up' - once a few years back he said he was 'struggling' and wanted to go back and see his psychiatrist and I said well "go" and he said " I don't know we can't afford it" and I said (may sound dramatic but I remember exactly what I said) 
"J I would sell the house tomorrow if I thought that it would help you sort things out"....

I am glad that I can remember that stuff because it reminds me that I was totally supportive and concerned for his welfare throughout our marriage as I am now - 

but then again why did I let that go - should I have hassled him ?

you know I did give J a lot of 'personal' space /privacy...I figured he'd been through a lot of stuff with his mum that I would have never understood and so I never asked him about his 'therapy'....I wanted him to know that I respected his right to have 'issues' and to work them out himself....

do you think this ending up 'enabling' his NG stuff or do you think it is unrelated? 

he has said throughout that he 'regrets' not speaking up earlier - 
but my question was "why was it too late once you had spoken up?" - surely if you are like me and you welcome any moves towards personal development - even those that hurt you individually "why is it too late"

is it because now that I know how he really feels about me - and how he has never been sure about the marriage that he can see the hurt in me and so he can't live with that?

my gut tells me that a lot of his behaviour has to do with not wanting to hurt me still - while at the same time he is thinking that he needs to put himself first....

am I just complicating things?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: It doesn't sound like you enabled things for him. Were you a primary decision maker in the marriage? Did he turn to you for most of the decisions as in askng "what should we do?" My H did that and I think it made me appear superior (hindsight). I would have deferred to him more maybe.

I think you are complicating things. Blaming his behavior as if you've done something wrong. You aren't perfect!! No one is...we ALL could have done/said something better or nicer or more appropriate. WE all have fought or gotten snippy or became ugly with each other. That's life and stress and all. 

I'm done figuring out my H. I put my time in analyzing this guy. It helped me figure out things for a bit. It's exhausting to analyze someone elses life. 

You sounded like a calm and patient and supportive wife. Maybe he hung in there longer than he would have with anyone else. Did he dad others before he met you? Did he have a long term relationship with another before you?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks for you honest reply CW 

In terms of decision making I took a lead in some big things (house buying etc) but everything else was joint I thought -

I was calm adn supportive and no he had virtually no experience in 'love' before us...
so at least part of the issue is
feeling as though he has missed out on potential 'better' partners and also having no way of 'assessing' how good or bad our relationship was /is...the fact he can risk what he knows on many levels is a really good thing hurts


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I see...he didn't see any one else seriously before you. 

Maybe he is wondering if there is something better. My H is going through that as well. Good luck to them both. We are pretty good gals!! Knowing my H, he'll be the knight-in-shining-armor to some hot girl...only to find out she's psycho!!!! 

You have along way to go into your separation. What do his sisters say? I don't think you responded to that one yet???


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW a long way to go - do you mean he has a lot to learn?

HIS Sisters - well -
they mainly (aside from 1 ) are of the opinion that this is a direct result of how 'damaged' he was as a child -

There is a general concensus that he was very sensitive and so suffered more than the others - also gender stuff....

So they are loathe to say he is making a mistake...I mean what are they going to say? HE said he was unhappy in the realtionship and that he can't make himself or me happy - can't be the man I want him to be ...

I am only really close to two of them

one of them is a mother figure for him and she keeps on saying that I am dealing with a boy - and that she thinks that it is a case of 'arrested development'....

she loves and adores him and he is very much the child she didn't have - she also feels an affinity with him in that she says that she and he were the worst effected by their mum as they were the most sensitive... 

she is also the one who says to me that he has been playing a 'role' - which FA could really relate to...

I asked her if she thought we had a bad relationship - she said No - but I always thought there were some strange things about you guys - she said the 'sport' thing was one - him playing baseball every Sunday...

I don't
really know what she means but I think because they grew up with a crazy but 'progressive' mother (hippy) and so he was very schooled in being a guy who understood 'women' and wasn't traditional -

I think she has always been surprised that he has adopted some old-fashioned manly beahviours - I don't know really 

They don't agree with HOW he has done this - long, drawn out, passive aggressive, not sorting stuff out... 

but they don't disagree with his right to do so and the idea that I am better off without him if he doesn't love me....

the other sister that I am close to is much more critical of him (to me) she thinks he is emotionally bereft and is making a mistake - and she believes that he has loved me but that he is 'in love' with someone else...

she thinks blaming his past is a cop out....

but they love him and accept him no matter what - 

they are good people - lovely people


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It good to hear that they love him but really don't understand. Who does right?

I say you have along way to go because of the requirements in your town/country for divorce. I think you said you have a required 1 year of separation correct? It's only 60 days until a divorce in Texas once filed. I'm not sure if it's good or bad. 

I feel time can be a healer in many ways. I have seen it in my H. Once he moved out and time is under his belt...he seems better. A year ago we were going through hell. The most difficult time in my life those months. NOt knowing how to fix it and what to do. 

Today my H called (again)..this time no pretending to talk about kids....He said "you have time to BS..or if you don't want to it's OK" type thing. He mentioned some random thing and went onto our son. Anyway..he's now wanting to BS. That is a definitely a change. 

Even though he's talked about getting together to "hammer" things out divorce wise...he's going MUCH slower than before. Who knows. I am still of the notion that a divorce is a good thing to bring him to the "light."


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

I'm telling you, you need to get the book. Based on your revelations, he is an NG. Being raised by a progressive hippy mother to be sensitive, etc. Code for not like other men. That is exactly the problem. He never learned how to be a man.

The book talks about why it is more prevalent today than ever. Post World War II, we moved to industrialized countries. Fathers starting working outside the home more and more. Whereas in agrarian societies fathers and sons worked side by side and sons saw how to be a man. Women became liberated here. Ths sixties happened with its confusing images for some people. LEss and less men went into teaching, etc. All creates a larger amount of NGs. Abesnt fathers or non communicative etc.

So his mother created this. His motherly sister continues on the tradition by the way. He can't break free until he realizes what he is.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi guys thanks so much for feedback - ok will get book - hear you loud and clear! 

FA that's amazing feedback about big sis...
I have thought throughout that she has played a 'role' in this - not in a sinister way - but in a sense in which he uses her to justify his position - he argues that she was always worried about us - and concerned when I became pregnant...

and while she was lovely to me throughout the separation she bought into the whole suicidal thing bigtime 

the thing he sees his psych now as a mother figure as well...
when he 'came back' to me after he'd left the first time he said the two people he didn't want to tell were his motherly sister and his psych....

CW I know that you and your guy were teenage sweethearts - did you have other partners as well????


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Its funny K that the big sis would thing him playing ball on Sunday was weird. Actually would be a good thing for an NG - fulfilling one of his needs and putting it first. Yes, obviously I'm not an expert, but feel that is his problem. You didn't mention a father for him, did he have one involved?

The statement of couldn't me "the man you wanted" - I've even thought to myself with my w. Felt I was lacking - pedestal thing and not standing up for myself and putting my needs first again. He might have been doing the same thing.

K, maybe you should tell something like this: You know I want to be a safety person for you. Someone you can be yourself with and no matter who you are I won't leave you. Everybody has faults and imperfections. I do and you do that is what makes us human. You don't have to be perfect, just yourself. And I want to help you find you again. Sure I might get mad at some of the things you might do, but I'll still love you. I just want you to love yourself.

Just some thoughts.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> K, maybe you should tell something like this: You know I want to be a safety person for you. Someone you can be yourself with and no matter who you are I won't leave you. Everybody has faults and imperfections. I do and you do that is what makes us human. You don't have to be perfect, just yourself. And I want to help you find you again. Sure I might get mad at some of the things you might do, but I'll still love you. I just want you to love yourself.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


FA thank you I would love to say that stuff to him - but I don't think for a minute he would want to hear it and therefore I feel like I risk being so hurt again...
the thing is FA that I think he's probably aware of the NG stuff to a degree - but his major thing is that he 'doesn't love me' - and has 'always had doubts about us" - he believes he stayed to make me happy at the cost of his own happiness...

he's putting his needs first now by leaving me.

Doesn't leave me a whole lot of room for sharing honestly and emotionally with him - each and every time I have done that over the last year I have pretty much either been met with guilt, silence or anger...you see he can't meet me in a place where we can talk unless I acknowledge that I accept that he doesn't love and doesn't want to be with me -

......

I was trying to 'show' my love and support but I don't think I am wildly good at that either.

Can I ask your advice please? 

Today when I saw him he mentioned the lawn. I haven't mowed the yard since he left... it's not overgrown but it needs some attention. He said that he had been talking to the boys and that they wanted it mowed - ( I have spoken to them and they have said it is fine - but who knows with kids in these siutaions?) 

Anyway he said he'd be happy to come over to mow it - "only because he was thinking of the boys' needs. 

Now, I got quite upset about this 
a) because although he is talking about the boys' needs this is the man who has steadfastly refused to work out how much maintenance he is going to pay me - has offered me only the vaguest assurances about not 'leaving me in the lurch financially' I do want to address the boys' needs - these needs - not the lawn.

b) I said to him - I am not sure I want you to mow the lawn- "when you said no to being married to me you also said no to doing the lawn" I know this sounds childish and petty - but that is really how I see it - he forfeited the right to take care of his children's yard in the manner in which he would like -

he got angry at this - and said I only thinking of the boys' needs....

So I came away feeling 'unreasonable' - but it would hurt me to have him here doing this -


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I think you need to do what you feel is right for you. Create that boundary and don't feel bad about. Feeling bad about his feelings is NG thinking. That is what I've been doing with my exW for too long. That is why she didn't think I was a "man". 

You go girl.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> I think you need to do what you feel is right for you. Create that boundary and don't feel bad about. Feeling bad about his feelings is NG thinking. That is what I've been doing with my exW for too long. That is why she didn't think I was a "man".
> 
> You go girl.


Thanks FA - 
I appreciate your cheers of support _ I would GO if I knew what to do!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I can see feeling bad about his feelings is a waste of time - perhaps I have some NG stuff! The MC we saw said that he thought we were both _phobic _about hurting eachother - I was intrigued and wanted to know more - but it was right around that time that my H said he needed out of counselling! 

We still seem to love telling echother that we 'don't want to fight - we both said it to eachother today - what do you make of that?

I think I will tell him I have the lawn covered. The last thing I need at the moment is the sense of him picking and choosing what he still wants to do 'for us'.....

I know he said it was for the boys but that aint logical - it was something _he_ loved doing - he misses it - he wants to feel good that he is giving them a nice place to play...

Part of me just feels like laughing about this stuff too - it so ridiculous - us having this sincere conversation about the lawn when we have had a drought for over two months - 

I just want to lighten everything up - it is funny being separated and having these silly conversations -
we are both so friggin sincere....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

That is funny - "so friggin sincere". Maybe you ought to get "real" and pick a fight just to see what he would do. It would be out of character for you. Maybe he wants you to stand up for yourself as much as you want him too. Just a thought based on your counselor's perception.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Something in what you say rings a bell ....I sometimes think that he doesn't really respect me.........
the whole being considerate stuff - 

boy FA I am confused - is it the end of considering eachother's feelings? 


love the idea of picking a fight with him ...
just before he left he suggested we drive out to the country and yell at eachother -
I loved this idea - but it was just him talkin - he didn't really want to do it..............


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: The lawn thing is soooo funny to me also! My H would offer this and or that around the house. These are nice gestures but the don't get the big picture. 

Yes, we dated others during HS in between our break ups. Our breakups were short lived a month or two then back on. He's 1.5 years older...went off to college and had "fun." We pretty much were together but he still had "fun!" No girlfriends but probably a lot of one-nighters (drunken stupor type stuff). He went into the military. I ended up dating an older guy. He got jealous and upset. I ended up apologizing and told him that I didn't have a commitment with him..he always strayed while he was away. He wasn't coming home for years-so what to do? Ended up married soon after. We truly were "in love" and loved each other. We both were mature. Soooo. 

I find it strange that your H is seeing his psych as a mother figure. Not wanting to tell her that he left and all. I believe that the process of counseling is impeded if he has those feelings. He needs to feel supported and open during these sessions. Just a thought.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes indeed CW - the lawn thing is definitley 'off' the big picture...and funny 

"Hey, K seems easier to get on with now - she won't mind if I drop by every couple of weeks and do the lawn for the boys...I am a true Nice Guy!" 

you guys do sound like you both had some experience 'in love' before hitching up....

it is/was a problem for my H - he perceives that I was 'more experienced' than him - in his uglier moments he is incredibly 'bitter' about this. - it was significant to me that one of his revelations when he wanted to reconcile was that he had (with the help of his counsellor) come to the conclusion that jealousy about my 'life story' was extremely 'unfair' (childish) and that the 'real reason he was so jealous was because he 'loved me so much' .....hmmmmm........that one didn't last! 

and I think the reflection you offer about the counselling being somehow compromised if he sees her as a mother figure really insightful......

Looking back it is very palbable - an example -

straight after we had sex for the first time when we were reconciling he said to me 
"I don't know what I am going to tell that psych I am seeing - think I just won't go back" - you don't talk to your mum about sex do you? 

I strongly urged him to 'reconsider' and after his first session 'back' with her he proudly told me that she had said that 'it' was an exciting development and nothing to be ashamed about - a mutual decision by adults - 

looking back on that whole thing now (with the benefit of your insight) I see how she must be aware of what is going on and is encouraging him to understand that he is an 'adult' ....

but as you say - it would also seem that this potentially impedes his development - but you would have to think that counsellor is aware of this stuff - but then who knows she only knows what he is telling her............

the advice from her that he acted on when he left the 2nd time was about 'finding your essence' that when he found his essence he would know what to do (leave or stay) 
apparently his essence told him - get out....

I think the level of his under development is only just hitting home now CW....

it is taking me a long time to understand him and sometimes I feel like giving that side of the equation up and just focussing on ME - but as I work things out I do get some peace and I do begin to understand how to proceed with him....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It seems like the mother figure with his psych isn't mutual. Good thing...he may have developed this with any psych. Maybe not a male though...

He seems very underdeveloped with this maturity. Looking for approval, wanting to avoid, jealous in regards to your feelings, etc. These are all immature behaviors as you already know. 

How does one recognize these behaviors and begin stepping up to the plate? Living alone may be the best medicine for him yet. Allowing him to discover that he can live a life as a mature person without others to fall back on.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes CW he is so immature - but he kept so much of his feelings hidden from me - when I try an work out how I didn't know who he was i get so so confused -
is he a boy who has been pretending to be a man? how can someone pretend for 14 years? how come I didn't notice ?
why did he pretend to be such a nice man that was so kind and considerate and mr wonderful....am I deluded about what my life was - what our relationship was? 

think baseball is going to be my weekly 'issue'. I was on canteen duty tonight - a new mum introduced herself to me and asked me who I was - she said - are you with J's team??? - I just looked at her - stalled and then I blurted out that I was his wife....what an idiot I am 

then you guessed it before I knew it I started weeping -I waited for the tears to stop and when they didn't after half an hour I excused myself - all the while I was watching my S play Baseball and seeing my H being mr wonderful coach.... laughing and chatting.........

when I read this I sound pathetic so sorry about that - you are welcome to give me a virtual slap if you think that would help...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

No you don't sound pathetic, just human. Don't beat yourself up about it. It takes time to overcome the emotions. As you detach it will get easier.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It's very hard cause you are attached emotionally. It's not pathetic it's just how love reacts after being hurt. Your husband is just playing the game and ignoring his feelings. Not sure how he can do it. Hang in there...


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

"Living alone may be the best medicine for him yet. Allowing him to discover that he can live a life as a mature person without others to fall back on."

BINGO!!! I couldn't agree more with CW's statement.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You are NOT pathetic, K. You are a feeling person and that takes courage!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Nothing pathetic what-so-ever. What's pathetic is your H....

My gyno appt. yesterday....she said "I really feel sorry for your H. Not so much you...although I know this is difficult." I laughed. "Me too!"


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D8zed said:


> "Living alone may be the best medicine for him yet. Allowing him to discover that he can live a life as a mature person without others to fall back on."
> 
> BINGO!!! I couldn't agree more with CW's statement.


I have been thinking a lot about this one as well - it's a goody CW - a CW gem...(one for the book!) 

I was just lying in bed thinking the fact is that so far no evidence whatsoever of maturity levels rising - 

If he bails on actually starting to sort financial stuff out tomorrow as planned - I'll kick start him by sending him the solicitor's letter that I have in waiting -

part of me thinks that I am still 'protecting' him from having to worry about it and I am sure that I am at least in part motivated by hoping he'll come back one day 

my lesson in this I am realising is that I need to stop making allowances for him - I hear everyone telling me that he is a 'boy' and so I treat him like one - 

no more


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Listen to your gut K. I hear you loud and strong! He's making no positive movement or change in his life. He's still in boy mode. It's very easy to let him have an "easy" ride regarding this separation. 

After all, he's a good guy that loves his kids. Everyone loves him right? Well, he isn't such a good guy in my book. He's been less than honest. He's left his marriage on standby. And doesn't want to deal with important financial issues that you've been begging him to look at. 

If he can't hash out a financial arrangement...then that solicitors letter should be on its way. How do you think he will react? My H would be a little angry but not tell me so. He would be offended that I wouldn't try to do this on our own (when you've tried more often than not). DUH! 

Treat him like a man. Either he will fold or step up. It's not for us to protect them. I feel the same way with my H. He's nuts! Talks to me today like we are BFF. He's in fantasy world all in the meantime...he hasn't been taking care of the divorce business in as lively a fashion.

My gyno (I know I kept mentioning her) said yesterday that when her H filed...she was "done" with it. She told him "lets get this done...when is the court date?" Him " I don't know." She said "I am going to call and find out myself." She started hurrying things up.....rumors at the hospital and guys wanting to date her after the divorce-filled his ears. He started to have feelings of "is this what I want."

They want it all on their terms. They may not even know that they are doing this...it's just go with the flow for them (boy behavior) Once we start taking action...they feel uncomfortable.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes CW -
I have just had a call from 10 year old telling me he is worried about 8 year old - so sad - he is trying so so so hard to make things right and he is so 'stepping up to the plate' when my H isn't.

Right now I don't care if my H never speaks to me again.

I just want to tell him he may feel like all he can manage is boy stuff at the moment but that I expect him to be a man - 
now more than ever -

HE needs to tell me how he is going make sure that his wife and kids are going to survive financially and how he is going provide for us - I don't want his money - but I deserve to have what I am entitled to and I deserve not to have to worry about whether i can pay the bills this week...............

If he can't tell me - I will get the solicitors to work it out - it will cost us both money we don't have - I don't care - it's worth it now to make him see separating isn't a game -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

k: Why is your 10 year old worried about your 8 year old? 

That is so sweet by the way that he's using those words. My kids are like their dad-closed up. It worries me, but I mention to my D (whose really close to her dad) that it's ok to say what you want in appropriate ways. 

I'm impressed with your kids.

It's frustrating and tiring to baby someone that doesn't deserve it at this point!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Well, my 8 year old is unwell today and doesn't want to go and watch his brother play baseball - my H has obviously told him he has to go and he is upset (he doesn't lie about being unwell ever).
So I can imagine the tension over there is pretty bad...

SO i think my 10 year old was ringing to 'sound me out' and see if I could have Ray for the day...

trying to solve the problem - ease the tension -

my 8 year old got on the phone and told me that only Vince (10 year old) cared about him ....

I know kids are full of sh** but it is so sad - and I am so angry at my H for not handling this better................


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes CW, an emontionally absent father for your son can be dangerous and lead to you know what. My father was -- never spoke. And with a critical mother. Well, that is how it starts. Try to please mom, cause can't please dad. But you don't seem to be overly critical so I don't see it as such a risk. At least that is one thing I am been doing right. I talk to my son, tell him I love him, that I'm there for him to talk, stay active in coaching, him seeing me play soccer with the guys and playing with us, etc. That is what my father never, ever did.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Your kids are adorable really! 

He will have to handle it all by himself. The kids will pick up things clearly as they already have. Your boys may even try to pull the "sympathy card" for a while between parents. They sound very intelligent.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Boys are back home. 8 year old told me
"no offence but I just feel a lot safer here" - tells it how it is! 

Had a quick chat to H. 

He said he wanted to speak to me about 10 year old's birthday. What the "arrangements" were - 

(My son has invited 9 friends over for a party and has asked his dad to cook pizza as per tradition). 

I just said to my H - well if you can cook the pizza and freeze it and drop it over that would be great...

he was totally taken aback - he was expecting to be here for the party I am sure....last year we went through the 8 year old's party and he said then 

"I'd like to think that WE are the sort of parents who would always be together on our children's birthdays".....

now please let me have it if I am not seeing straight here - but I don't see what 'right' he has to expect this - 



anyway I quickly shifted onto the subject of finances -(which I have been asking him to sort for 5 months) 

my H has a highly responsible position - he is the boss where he works and has a big budget etc - he is superstar at his job... 

J: "Are we meeting tomorrow ? "
K: "Have you worked anything out?
J "no - I don't know how to work it out"
K " all I have asked you for is a figure - how much child support you can afford to pay me" - I have given you the budget all you need to do is look at it and come up with a figure - what you think is fair" 
J "well I don't know - I tried to live off the absolute minimum - and that didn't work"
(this was a reference to a nonsense budget he did when left which our accountant thought was totally irrational) 
K "So J I am going to the solicitors this week (panic in his eyes) I can get them to work it out and you can just say yes or no..."
J silence
K "so are we meeting tomorrow?"
J "I don't know - I'll go into work now and try and do some work on the budget - I'll call you tonight"............

can hardly wait!

well he called - is hoping to have something worked out by early next week doesn't want to meet - is sounding angry...


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Well when it comes to money he sounds like he is really reserve about it. Knowing its oing to hurt him bad. I bet he's trying to figure out how little he can get away with giving to make yo uhappy. It's kind of like negotiating a car. You don't want to pay too much but don't want to offend either. Its going to effect him for a lot of years..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

He's sounding angry because you are forcing him to deal. Good for you, K. You are taking your power back.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Whooooo girlfriend you did it! You are forcing his hand...and he's NOT liking it!

The birthday party was brilliant. I'm not saying that you can never have parties for your kids together. However, I'm not sure that I want to have parties the first year together. It's our perogative. That was a show of strength.

Also bringing up the solicitor. He probably doesn't want to be told what to pay? It's good that you are prodding him to take action. 

Why does he get to float along and do whatever he feels?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys, thank you so much! LH I laughed out loud when I read your post because you are so CORRECT and yet I had'nt seen it like that - I am always so busy attributing 'higher motives' to J 

-it's all about how he 'looks' - doesn't want to appear 'mean' yet really doesn't want to live like a pauper - this will be a huge conflict for him - I have always called him Prince J because he likes the finer things in life....the car analogy is PERFECT! 

Coupled to this is the fact that doesn't like to plan long term - and yet this must be a long term answer - 

no wonder he is putting it off! 

a guy's perspective is just priceless THANK YOU AGAIN...

and W thank you for the power comment - I felt terrible last night - when he called we talked a lot about the boys and it was painful painful painful.......

CW - I am glad you think that I am approaching birthday party ok. That one has to hurt him. And that's not my intention - but in my book this is exactly what he gave up when he left - the worst parts of being married with kids and the best parts - he can't just 'come back' for the good bits.... 

He will be brimming with anger about all of the above - no wonder he doesn't want to meet....

once I start to see J's motivations as not as 'noble' as I always assume it begins to make more sense - 

my challenge is understanding this and not deferring to this idealised vision of him - as noble yet conflicted - 

at the moment in his life he is acting on some pretty basic stuff.....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I agree on the B-day. My w had planned a sleepover for my son and then that went away Monday this week. Then she wanted to plan something together when I wasn't invovled in the first decision. I made plans for he and I and too bad for her.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes FA - they need to get their act together and plan what they want to do for their children's birthdays - my H wanted to talk about 'presents' last night as well - as though we had to confer -
he is REALLY missing this stuff - 
GOOD he should suffer. He's leaving all this behind.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I concur.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Is this birthday season? My son's b day is tomorrow..like FA's son. I am going to make a cake and have a little celebration (if he allows) as he's been down. Anyway, spoke with my H regarding things...I said "you invited to eat some cake with us around 6 or so." I'll let you know if the time changes and all. 

I'm not in the mood to be giving at this point.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

You know I realised a couple of things today
the first is that I am still very angry at my H because he never told me (directly) our relationship is 'over' even after saying to me before he left that he'd like to think he had the guts to do this ...

I know I know NG stuff can't face me - can't tell me -


He decided one day that we had spoken enough about our relationship and that was it - no more....
his choice...


but I just keep on thinking about this boy/man thing - everyone counsellors, family friends say he is a boy..you are dealing with a boy and I just feel like saying to him that this is not how I see him - I see you as a man and I expect you to behave like one now - sort this mess out - take some responsibility - face the cosequences of your decision....

now I know that it is not wise for me to do this just to off load - but I still want him to know that I think he is a man - ...

but it doesn't really matter what I think does it - it's not going to change anything is it?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I don't know about you but I would send him to his room and if he didn't go I would spank him.. That will teach him for trying to be a NG..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH: Amen brother!

K: You tell him whatever you want to tell him...if it makes you feel better and off loads some of your stress-do it!

Expecting him to "man up" is reasonable. He may choose to not to.... as in the financial realm and you may have to make him "man up" with the solicitor. You are now going to see if he is capable after your little conversation that you had recently. It will be interesting what he is going to do. 

There is nothing wrong with expecting him to be a man. However, be prepared to deal with the boy.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ha Ha

Guys I get your message -

If I apply the anology I think it's about not protecting him from the consequences of his decisions -

It's not about hurting him (I am not a punitive person) it's about how I look after myself first and not protect him....

It's so easy to focus on them instead of yourself - 

Who do I want to be ? How will I act? What do I want ? I need to start arcticulating all of these...then I what I need to do will be clearer....


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## wantosaveit (Oct 17, 2009)

can you give me some advice my husband has only left me 5 days ago - I am going crazy lonely, this gut feeling inside - anything that you think could would help -


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok - he calls tonight saying he has looked at some budget stuff??? but wants to get together to talk about my son's birthday list...while we are talking the kids start fighting...I hang up and tell him I'll call him later....

I am so full of anger - I just want to yell at him to come home the kids need him 

I am so sad I don't want to discuss what presents he is going to get for our son -

I can't believe he is doing this - still - can't believe that his freedom is worth this

I know people do this - but we were such fantastic parents - we have taken such beautiful care of our kids -

I am full of bitterness about this 

about the fact that he has taken the jopy of sharing our kids away from me 

of everything I can't believe that he has done this and that he can live with himself having done this -

I am so so angry and I want to tell him.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K.. I understand.. I think it's horrible that you and the kids going through this while he sits in peace only worry is what to get the kids. Its not fair and of course they don't understand this is the for worse part they should be following.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh K. I feel for you. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to still have the eternal connection, children, and feel all these emotions.
You have eveyr right to be angry. Will he understand it or validate the anger? Probably not. He can't see beyond the end of his nose right now.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, you know he never told me it was over - one day when he was picking the kids up we started talking and he said 
"i don't have the feelings for you that I should" 
and then when i tried to talk about the realtionship he said he didn't want to talk about 'us' anymore - that we had atlked baout everything - (all we had done was talk about him ) - 

I so want to yell and scream at him because I never got a chance - he just slipped out the back door 

but would he validate it ? that's a good way of putting it - I don't think he can/would - as he sees it he has never done anything wrong - not his fault - never really 'loved' me - tried hard even though the deep love wasn't there...

it is just that we are starting to talk again about the kids etc. and that messes me up _ i want to really talk instead of the crap...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

He would be forced to take responsbility for his actions if he validated your anger. He would be forced to really take a look at himself and how slipping out the door has affected a family. It's an easier out to say there is no love.
My mom and dad have been married for 40 years. She told us that there have been many times over the years that she questioned her feelings and wanted to kick my dad out. But she chose commitment and knew those feelings were temporary. The ebb and flow of relationships are constant. Change happens, no matter the person you choose. I don't know. Maybe it's a load of BS that I keep telling myself so I feel like a martyr to J's victim.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

My wife told me she hasn't felt close to me since we first started dating (July 1985). Would you consider this part of the "ebb and flow" of a relationship? (I wouldn't.)

I guess I struggle with the question - "are all marriages supposed to last a lifetime no matter what"? (except for those involving some type of abuse)


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

d8zed, not feeling close from the very beginning is no ebb and flow. And I really hate that experienced that emotional withholding.
And I'm not sure all marriages can last a lifetime. I just think we choose partners without a lot of thought because it's so easy to walk away in this society.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I would like to yell and scream at my H. It might make me feel better. He would stand like a deer in headlights or he'd leave. He wouldn't fight back...Maybe if he would-we'd get somewhere. Who knows. 

I never expected a perfect marriage. I just expected a commitment....a full course commitment. No holds barred. Of course, if I was abusive, etc...it wouldn't surprise me if my spouse left. I didn't deserve this. I think to myself...there are many people, in the world, that have tragedies in their lives. They don't deserve those either. I am just one in a million. It still hurts.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deer in the head lights. Maybe that is what I looked like with my w at times. No longer.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K: I would like to yell and scream at my H. It might make me feel better. He would stand like a deer in headlights or he'd leave. He wouldn't fight back...Maybe if he would-we'd get somewhere. Who knows.


They don't fight back - so the dynamic is that they stay calm and 'detached' and you end up feeling like an hysterical mess....

they won't go there with us - they don't want to 

my H has made a decision he feels good about based on the argument that he has never 'really' loved me and 'doesn't have the feelings he should for me'...

end of story...we both split up and live happily ever after...


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

We all have heard the same facts; re-stated; re-hashed and re-packaged in some way. It is a lame attempt, in my opinion, to try to relieve the guilt they are feeling for their decisions that have caused so much pain to others. For example, how many on this board can honestly say that their spouse walked away sat down with them, looked them in the eyes, and had a heart to heart talk on why they left, what they needed, and how it can be addressed together? Love is not a feeling- lust is. love is a commitment; it is a decision as I see it. It would be interesting to review any studies about spouses who leave marriages. In the book make Up Dont Break Up, the Pursuer Distancer relationship is discussed. It discusses that in most cases, it is the distancer who leaves the relationship and the pursuer left behind to try to salvage the marriage unilaterally. I am just wondering, how many spouses on this board will label themselves a pursuer? Was your spouse who left what you would call a distancer? I reflect back on my marriage and, yes, my wife was a distancer throughout the marriage, and an introvert as well. Just curious on others!


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

A distancer by definition, cannot become as fully invested in, and attached to, the marriage.

The question is, did you see this distancing pattern while dating? If so, is that something that should be considered when thinking about a life-long mate?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep he has always withdrawn, but dobo we don't enter relationships with this insight - 
and it is never starightforward,
my H pursued me - was 'in love with me first' 
asked me to marry him and was the one who wanted to have kids - if the withdrawal was consistent we'd see it - 
the fact is our spouses wanted both - to be in and to be out...


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

Dobo- I did and did not listen. My wife has always been a distancer as the definition states. Though, I was not assessing the books and reflection I do know 2 decades ago as none of us likely were. I am wondering what others are experiencing. DFor those of you left behind, are you a distancer or a pursuer in your thoughts?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I'm the expressor, the pursuer in the last few years -


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

And your spouse left you, correct?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sure did...twice!!!!!!!!!


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

It is interesting................it appears there is some logic to a mad situation; the situation we all find ourselves in- predictably unpredictable results from distancers- run when the going gets tough- Perhaps that is something for everyone to reflect on if another relationship down the road in life arises-


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

knortoh said:


> Yep he has always withdrawn, but dobo we don't enter relationships with this insight -
> and it is never starightforward,
> my H pursued me - was 'in love with me first'
> asked me to marry him and was the one who wanted to have kids - if the withdrawal was consistent we'd see it -
> the fact is our spouses wanted both - to be in and to be out...


Sounds like my relationship. I've been a distancer and pursuer as has J. During the breakdown in the last year? He was the distancer.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Hindsight: He has been the pursuer for 23 years of marriage. 

The marriage crisis came about and then I become the pursuer. 

Now, I am neither.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep - all that stuff is over for me now too - just want to 'meet' on some 'neutral' ground ....


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

what ios the process to get there? I am still in love with my wife who is now gone 4 months- and have no clear indication which way this is going-though she is NOT home which is instructive. How did you let go? How do you detach and say i am done? I can't seem to get there.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Waiting thats a battle in you. You have to figure out when you had enough and not going to take it any more.. That's when you can detach. I never could get there as my SIL kept telling me to think of the kids if I ever thought of giving up..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Waiting: I think it takes time. I have detached over 3 months of separation but not fully detached. I don't think I will for many years. I think there are levels of detachment.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

WP I haven't detached hardly at all - but I am going on each day and he is not here - i am working through it - it is not easy - 

i have realised I need to get to a stage of 'releasing' him and I hope to start a post on that soon..it hurts like hell and it aint easy..but somehow you get through....can't tell you how as I believe each journey is different.......


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I believe in the stage theory as well. We each have different relationships with different expectations. 

I'm not sure why I have released so quickly. I know in my divorce support group many have been divorce for months or years and haven't released their husbands.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Cw maybe it's because spiritually we feel connected to them - and so we can release them? do you know what I mean?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wish me luck distant friends am off to meet ex to discuss eldest love child's 11th birthday....and he said he never loved me!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

WP, K, CW,

A wise person has told me that I keep looking at individual acts of my w instead of the whole situation. That I need to look at the whole thing. Was my w more of a giver or taker in the relationship = taker. Was my w more rigid or more flexible and willing to compromise = rigid. Maybe we all need to step back and look at things this way. I know it makes a difference for me since I've always said things like she is this but...... knowing in some ways she could be giving or compromising. 

I would say everyone plays the part of distancer and or pursuer in a relationship but again which one is prevalent. I would say my w was the distancer - aka the rigid rules, threat of leaving if it isn't my way. She isn't introverted, but like me doesn't know how to communicate her thoughts. She assumed I should know.

Problem is in life no one gives you a manual and says this is how it is done. At least no one gave me one. Now with all the books I have read I am beginning to understand my failings as a H. And I did fail, but I wasn't alone in this she did to. She wasn't a good W either. It is just she realized my failings before I realized her's. Of course there really is no right or wrong way because each person is differrent and therefore each couple is different.

I know I'm rambling this am, just some thoughts.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I'll be interested on how the birthday plans will turn out. Hmmm.

FA: I know there isn't always black and white right? We all play our roles for the most part. 

I'm just tired at this point. I still don't sleep fully.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys I am in a weird state - a new stage and I don't trust myself at all....
I met with J at cafe...
was pretty funny first thing he said was " I don't have any money" - meaning the coffee was on me ...it's that familiarity that they take for granted - it floors me - but I still laughed. 

we talked about the birthday stuff -
my son is going to wake up here and so I suggested that he spend the evening with my H.

my H ummed and ahhed - he's doing the NG - kind considerate - 
"well I think he'll want to be at home for his birthday"...

I say "well yes he does he wants you to come over for dinner" ...

nothing is decided - I am not clear - my H isn't going to make a call on this ....I have been thinking I can do this - do the dinner and the cake and have him here and then I think no I can't....

I don't know - confused again...

don't think it's a good idea 

FA - we all fail in life and we all have chances to learn...it's just part of being human - no relationship is perfect - it just is what it is - a relationship ...there is no manual in life - it's learn on the job - all the time ...but I think often when people walk away that they are missing the chance to learn.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

If your going to do it your going to have to be strong. Acting like everything is normal in your life. This could be your time to shine and show your moving on and its not phasing you. I know it's hard but you could get him to think if you pull it off.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks LH - the weird bit is that although I thought even up until a couple of days ago that this is something I could never do I now feel as though I can - I don't know why...but can I tell you why I am scared - I am worried that I am just 'trying to get him back'...and this is not only dumb it is stupid....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

If you focus on your son and not him you'll do great. Treat him as a friend/guest and nothing more. This will help...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I totally agree with LH!
You are stronger than I am K. I don't think I could do it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH, W - thank you - treat him as a guest ....is this a case of fake it 'till you make it?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I agree with LH...if you are gonna do it then you need to let it shine.

If not, then bow out and say it's not a good idea right now. 

Did you break down after the meeting? I used to...now I don't.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Interesting CW - no I didn't - (break down) thought I would thought I wanted to but didn't - went and had a glass of wine with my boss! 
I have moved on


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yep. That's a sign. I used to break down after each time I saw or heard from him.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

okay now I am thinking
on birthday S wakes up with me - 
after school his Father comes over we have cake - open presenst etc..then his dad takes him to his palce for birthday dinner...
or after school fahther takes him out for play in park then back to me for dinner and cake -
question still can I handle dinner and cake - am I just giving H the easy way?
is it sending son a wrong message?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Your son will probably like that his parents are together and friendly. I think, in kids hearts, they always want their parents back together (unless the marriage was REALLY bad). On that note...you son won't think any different.

Not sure if I could do the WHOLE dinner and cake/presents thing either? I had invited my H over for cake only as I didn't want to have conversation over dinner. That, I decided, would be my comfort zone. He ended up not being able to come as he had alread made plans for our son and him and dinner (my son was undecided). 

Anyway..do what you can handle.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

If you didn't break down, that's a good sign K!
I don't know if I could handle dinner and cake, either. But I hope it works out well for you all. You're a courageous lady!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

OK people - am struggling 

think I have shifted too far - too quickly -

just got home from dropping kids at H's place - for the first time ever he offers me a cup of tea -
I accept...

I sit on his couch in his appartment our kids around us - it feels wrong it feels right - it feels nice the 4 of us all together....

I look at him and I sense that he still loves me - 

we don't exchange any looks of love it's not that - it's just a sense...

we sit outside on and chat about the birthday gifts - I sense him starting to put barriers up again...he realsies that he's slipped...he realsies he better start sending me the message he is doing this as a friend and as the mother of his children....

I thank him for the tea and leave...

I haven't broken down - no tears - 
just wondering if I am setting myself up to be hurt and wondering when I'll be 'out of love' with him.............


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh K, you may never totally "be out of love" with him. But as long as you continue to invest ie. spending time with him, talking with him- the feelings will not lessen. There are no guarantees. He probably does love you. But he can't/won't give you what you want/need/deserve right now.

I know you love him. I know it hurts so much. But please be careful with yourself.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: He still loves you. I have never thought that he didn't love you. Not matter what you wrote or told us he said...I had a feeling through his actions that he loves you. If you had a traumatic marriage...I would have thought "ok..he's lost the feelings." 

You didn't have one of those horrible marriage. People don't ask their spouse in for tea...during a separation if that were the case. It may be that he's not longer feeling those "in love" butterflies anymore. Like my H. 

Maybe telling you that he no longer loved you was a "tool" to step away from the marriage? Wasn't it a "tool" to step back into the marriage? He's using his LOVE as a weapon. He just doesn't have the skills or honesty to discuss it in any other way. 

This is how I am seeing it by your writing. I am also comparing it by our similiar circumstances.

You don't have to be out of love with him. The main thing is that you move forward. The feelings will take care of themselves.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Your love will always be there for him K. It will diminish, but will be there. Remember K, W, and CW that if they recover from NG that they will be different in ways. And it will take time to do. I'm still not all the way through the exercises a first time.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> K: "
> 
> You didn't have one of those horrible marriage. People don't ask their spouse in for tea...during a separation if that were the case. It may be that he's not longer feeling those "in love" butterflies anymore. Like my H.
> 
> ...


WOW CW - he does use the word 'love' like a tool - this hits home as absolute truth - can you help me to understand this a little more ... ?

I feel I have taken some 'spiritual' steps forward and emotional steps backwards - and am going to have a long hard think about how to move forward emtionally once my son's birthday is over. 

thanks guys - also Wren & FA - I am listeing to you both as well and I also feel the truth and insight in what you write - once again feel very lucky to have this place to discuss things.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm telling you guys, a weekend trip to the Bahamas. Sit around and talk about our spouses, enjoy the beaches and just LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Do you have to have a passport now to just go to the Bahamas. I haven't traveled internationally since 9/11 so I don't know. I let mine expire. Of course easier to get reinstated then start anew. Have to get one for my son though. If you do, then I miss the old days of just having a DL for the Bahamas or birth certificates for Canada and Mexico.

Last time I was out of country was to Panama. What a place. Don't want to go back there.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Could be a bit of a stretch for me to get there FA - but I am smiling thinking about it - any chance you guys can come here - plenty of nice islands near me ....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I always wanted to go their, the birthplace of Mel Gibson. Just kidding on Mel. No, almost went once. A friend of mine in college was from Melbourne and invited me down for X-Mas. But darn, a college kid forking out that kind of dough. Should of went though, her next door neighbor was Mel.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Melbourne is the pits - I live in the subtropics - we don't consider oursleves even remotely related to southerners!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Darn K, I'm a southerner here in the US. Wasn't born a southerner, but I've live here long enough. Y'all know what I mean? Subtropics, is that like living in Miami here in the states. Is it always warm? Just curious. Like I said, always have wanted to go to Austrlia and New Zealand. I want to go out on one of those rivers in New Zealons with the flat bottom speed boats and let it rip.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm game for any kind of travel! I believe that you do need a passport for all places now, including Mexico (I live 3 hours away).

K: The using love as a "tool." Think of it when a child uses "I hate you" to a parent. It's used to evoke a reaction or let off steam. Same juvenile concept.

Put our H's in this frame of mind. Not having the emotional verbage to lay it out may be a reason. Maybe not having the skill or wanting lack of conflict. I'm not sure.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA it's always warm here - and very beautiful blue skies - can't complain about weather at least (although a lot folk do!)

CW think I am getting what you are saying - although I am still a little confused - do you know when something makes sense but not quite? 

I have to keep on reminding myself that his version of our life together is that he didn't break up with me when he wanted to 14 years ago, (because he didn't want me to think that he was 'using' me for sex), and stayed with me ever since because it was what he thought he should do and it wasn't all bad. 

Really this is what he thinks - from this he is also able to deduce that our relationship was never what it could have been because he never fully 'accepted' (read committed) ....

but his final word 

"I just can't do us" 

if he could he would - problem solved for everyone - 

not sure where 'love' fits in across that period of time -

I just _feel _it when I see him - but could be just lust- 

that was the pattern last time he left - 

and he caved into it - this time I think not...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

lust or chemistry...

Let's say maybe he stayed because things were not all that bad. Or he stayed for the sex. 

That's a long time to be with someone for any other reason than love..I know you had your sons and that was a different level of commitment for him. 

I just don't get it. If he didn't love you than he may just be crazy or a great actor. Let's say hypothetically that, in the future, he came home. How could you trust what he said or how he treated you? It's like you are trying to decipher the truth? Man....that's no life.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes sobreing thought - I don't think he really knows himself (too many years of harbouring doubts and dangerous thoughts and not testing them) he is testing them now - but has decided he doesn't want to hurt me and wants to feel LOVE...wants to feel what he has seen me feel for him - he can't trust himself and that's why I couldn't trust him either - 
but I still think it's a load of crap - 
as you say it's a long time to stay if it wasn't love - 
has to be hurting him somewhere....

he is a great actor - he said he is tired of pretending 
but I don't think it's been an act -

you can't act for that long - he loves me I can see it - 

it hurts


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm glad you see it. You need to see it. 

Let him say what he wants and do what he wants.

He'll figure out things...like my H. It will probably be too late for me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

k.. I can tell you coming from a man we try to hide our true feelings. Like we have to be the man and not allowed to show that. I battled that for a lot of years in my marriage and held back. I now realize how damaging that was and as you can tell I am very upfront and expressive with my feelings. I do feel it's a benefit.. I am true with myself and to my wife. I have taken the outlook that I live ONCE and if I cheat myself because of society I am the one that has to pay for it. I also look at it this way. What is the purpose of holding it back?? It hurts everything. Being "the man" makes me feel like I am being cheated out of life..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH, that is what I was doing as well. Holding back to be the man, etc. I realize how damaging that was and won't in the future.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH & FA - so you are saying that you both felt that if you showed your true feelings you weren't a man?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes, that is part of it K. Of course with me that comes from my father who never showed emotion. Well except for anger. I guess that is what I saw.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

This is so interesting - when my H and I did the MC one night the MC started saying to him

"I bet you don't think very much of people who indulge their emotions do you?" 

I remember being quite confused at the time 

Now I guess what he was getting as was that 'control' was a big virtue to J....?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I guess our culture hasn't progressed that much regarding men and showing emotions. At least not our generation. Perhaps we will teach our children differently. However, they do see what we project and tend to model the behavior.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

No more that we had to project the strong type that can handle everything and if we showed to much we would look weak. That's how I felt at least
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Same here LH, same here. So you aren't alone. The interesting part if the conflict in today's society. If you get the book No More Mr. Nice Guy and read it, it has an intersting take on where we stand today as opposed to history. I believe K has read it, as well as CW and Wren.

Things are confusing for us guys today. And they are for woman as well, but their expectations have changed so much from our fathers. Also, we all elevate our children at times over our relationships with our spouses, which isn't right. But is the "progressive" thing to do. But when you do that, you lose the connection with your spouse. Nobody is really to blame, but one understands and one doesn't. Oh well. It is what it is.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That was our big mistakes ....putting the kids first! 

Of course you do..in crisis and all but overall...it's a bad thing but "progressive" now.

My parents didn't carpool me to my friends. I either walked or rode my bike. We didn't do many spend the nights. You played until dark and came home. My parents didn't want us inside much.

My parents didn't sign me up for every activity that I wanted. I got to choose one for the year or however it lasted.

Now my parents marriage didnt' work out either...there problem was incompatibility. But...the focus wasn't on the kids.

My H did the opposite. Taking our kids problems as our problems...and catering to their wants. Not all of the time...we didn't go overboard but they mostly got what they wanted (no materialistic) is reasonable.

My H and I have a focus=being the best parents. It wasn't being the best H and W. Boy did my kids lose out!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes they do. There is another thred where Dobo and I have been discussing this. There was an article written by a local community columnist that my father gave me a month or two ago that discussed this. It is an interesting read.

His point, and I don't mean to offend, is that the women's movement in this country changed things. The men tried to not be like their fathers, etc. The women started their careers. And they both ended up putting the childrent first above their relationship. The boys with the fathers said, I won't be like dad, cause the first thing I'll do is play with my childrent. The wife, who now has a career and feels that she has to be super mom, says I've got to get dinner. So dad comes home and the first thing he does is walk past wife and play with the kids because "they want" his time. Meanwhile wife it toiling away in the kitchen to fix dinner. They eat, get the kids washed up and ready for bed, read to them, and tuck them in. Seems great. 

But the parents are so tired they don't have "them time". The moral. The H should have stopped and kissed his wife - in front of the kids - and if the kids said oh dad, oh dad, play with me. The dad should have said, "I will, but mom is the most important thing at this minute -- one day you'll understand" Then talked to his wife. That would be enough, but I think help finish dinner, set the table, whatever. Then after dinner the two of them could spend some family time with the kids, tuck them in, and if not tired -- well you know what.

It seems to be a backlash of the lock key syndrome. There is a balance, but who the heck knows what it is.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA my husband literally walked through the house and into the backyard with kids every day - I would ask him to stop and have coffee with me and he would - for a couple of minutes but his focus was getting to kids - and they knew it - escpecially older one - he hassled him until he got down there with them.....not sure he respected me at all...but the MC told him he had to d othe couple time with me - he didn't want to - everything I come back to is him not wanting to ...not caring


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, I don't think it is so much that he "didn't want to" as much as with the kids he didn't want to be his dad. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense.

But I remember one of the first thoughts I had when my w told me she was pregnant, I won't be like my dad and I will be there for Harrison. turns out that wasn't the right thing to do. That was the point of the article, that although us kids took from our dads that they would rather see mom and read the paper befoere talking to us, they actually were teaching us something, i.e. Couple first, them second, and us as kids third. That isn't bad order, it turns out that is probably the best order. I know I think Harrison first right now, but that isn't good. I won't spoil him becasue that actually harms him in the long wrong. Me and my business first, Harrison second. The key is how I spend my time with Harrison. He needs to learn independence for his life.

Well I'm rambling.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I agree with the womens' movement statement/column you mentioned. It opened up many doors but we didn't quite know how to balance our lives.

My H and I agreed that I would be a stay at home mom for years. It was easier and the kids benefited. However, when he got home...I think he felt the need to connect with the kids. He did. Later the kids got older and weren't available and barely said "hello" when he came home. They had their lives. Then my H and I were left with each other. What do we do now? 

We were so driven to have a nice lifestyle and nice homelife that we forgot ourselves and our marriage in the long run.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> K, I don't think it is so much that he "didn't want to" as much as with the kids he didn't want to be his dad. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> .


You weren't rambling FA...and makes perfect sense : _my H didn't want to be his dad -_ his estranged dad - he wanted his kids to do boy things play baseball etc..and his dad had affairs and my H was adamant he would never do that - in fact he said that to me today that he was trying to give our boys the guidance he never got....

But I do need to share (as they say)

I had an 'emotional' chat with J this afternoon. I have been thinking about it for a while - I weighed up and saw the pitfalls and dived in anyway...it has been at least 4 months since our last one!

I just needed to square a few things with him - 

I told him how hurt I was that he had never actually come to me and told me things were over - 

I also told him that I had had time to reflect on our relationship and I was clear that I hadn't knowingly done anything to end the marriage...

He said sorry and he still didn't know where things were at...
the famous "I don't know" 

he said he has no anger towards me at all 
and acknowledges that none of this is 'my fault' but feels terribly gulity and that he has just realised that he is very angry - he said he wakes up each morning full of anger...he said that he think that he has been angry for 25 years 

I told him that I found talking to him about boys's birthdays etc was extremely painful - he said it was for him as well -

He cried - so I think he was being emotionally honest with me - 

I asked him a bit about the NG stuff - he said that he never felt he could say anything that would hurt me - and he said he realises that he has done nothing but hurt me - duuuhhh

I said do you realise how damaging that was to our relationship? he said yes....

He said he hadn't been thinking of leaving me at all the first time - he had just been feeling suicidal - and turning 40 pushed him over the edge (and EA - but he conveninetly forgot that !) 

And the second time he left he said he was in a lot of pain....

I told him that everyone (his family etc) keep telling me he is a boy and I said I think you are a man - 

He said - I feel like a boy and just lately I have been thinking to myself - grow up....he said he had only had this thought in the last two weeks! 

Anyway I told him I loved him and that I thought he was a wonderful person - and that I was going to be okay and that I needed to move on -

he found that difficult to hear but I was glad to have the chance to say it....

he thanked me for having the courage to speak to him and said he would talk to me again...we'll see....


I just wanted to say to everyone out there in anonymous land - all you damaged people who have posted to me and commented and helped me get to this place of understanding - THANK YOU -

I wouldn't have had the guts (without CW & LH ) and I wouldn't have known what to say (without the input from FA and D8zed - if you are still out there somewhere!) -

I don't think our chat changed anything between us - but it was a step forward for me - I didn't cry - he did and I am not crying now! -


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

We are all winging it... It's almost like we change too much.. If when we grew up our parents both worked and had no time the kids remember that and do the opposite. Now spend so much time with kids that they forget other areas. I am starting to think so many people don't know how to balance their life any more. We are so consumed with how much stuff we can get. How much activities we can do with our kids that the most important part is neglected.. My BIL has been married for over 20 years but when I see them its about everything else but them. I never see them kiss or hug. I never see any closeness or even looks that show caring Its like a business arrangement. They have a beautiful home. Kids are wonderful and well adjusted. Will make nice adults but they have NO marriage. I don't understand why people do that. I will now always put the order Wife/Kids/House/Job.. I hope my wife does to as she says she will.. Kids need to see the affection between husband/wife. They need to see love.. It's all part of growing and if they don't see it they won't give it freely when older. It's a cycle that has to break..


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K-- It's great.. He is finally thinking about his issues and starting to see a clear picture. This is a huge step forward.. BRAVO!!! Now let him dwell on this for a bit. He needs to digest the aftermath. Once the spouse has time to reflect and no longer blame they have to see themselves in the mirror.. I think it was also good you told him your moving on. Now with his feelings out there and will think hard about you slipping away. Maybe get it jump started.. Hopefully the next few days stirs up something. :smthumbup:


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH I think I read somewhere that the reseach now says the best thing that you can do for your kids is just be there....that's it...the clincher - being present ....wish my H would have read that and taken it on board -

and thanks Lh - but honestly I am not optimistic - it's been a year since this started only now he has the thought to grow up???

I know he is thinking but to protect myself 

I am going to pull right back again now - get the legal stuff going and move on -really - 

he may never work it out and he still says that he has always had significant doubts about us and that he used to think that was just him - but something changed in him - (his feelings for OW) and that made him think that he was just with wrong person....this is still going on for him - 

until he works through that he won't come back to me - and I think I will have moved on then..I am good and kind and loyal - but I won't be hurt by him anymore - I think it's too late for us.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K-- Most men are not deep.. Sorry but it is true.. They don't think more then whats on the surface or how they feel at the moent. They don't look to see what their actions do.. It is very tough for most men to get it cause of that.. Yet when one does it makes a marriage better. Hopefully he will


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, first off. Wow on the talk. That took a lot of courage, and thoughtfulness. It seems that you timed it perfectly with him thinking about those things the last two weeks.

It sounds like to talked to him in a firm and gentle way without anger or anything. I'm glad you told him you loved him, would be okay without him and have to move forward. That was awesome.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks FA - hope I struck the correct tone - went with my gut -and I am feeling okay...I am so much stronger these days...still wouldn't surprise me if he never 'talks' to me again - but who knows? His life - his turn to think, grow up and be bitter and angry or let go of the anger and move on....not my stuff 
mine is to go on and to be myself ...what a huge lesson this is -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Our J's sound the same. So weird!
You sound strong K and I'm so proud of you!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: What a wonderful conversation! I think it was a breakthrough for you and him. It was open and honest sounding. I know you think his process is so slow....over a year but he is starting to evaluate his life and recognize things. 

Remember, he's a late bloomer-emotionally. He won't get up to our speed...maybe ever. That's ok but this "talk" was significant.

Will it change anything in the near future? You are right. Probably not. 

You strength is your posts come out clear. Moving on and forward with your legalities and your life. Smart woman!!

This kind of conversation will never happen with my H. He just doesn't share any feelings. 

The kind of anger that your H feels my H feels and shows as well. It's probably a form of "beating" themselves from the guilt.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks for the support guys - you have helped me to have faith in myself and to understand what we are going through and that is a major reason why I was able to talk to him...and it was a significant one for him...

CW the reason why J can talk at all is because he is in counselling...they don't have the language unless they go - 
and I thought when he said that nothing was going on with OW that he was 'honestly' trying to work stuff out...

you're correct though it is slow and I didn't hear anything like a re-think of what 'love' is going on -

But I did manage to tell him that I thought we had shared every type of love there was ...

I have a feeling he will grow up eventually but it will be painful as it usually is.

I have the feeling with your H CW that the painful lesson is also on its way...he is still avoiding and if he is looking in the mirror he's only seeing the surface stuff ...
I thought about him when you said the getting up and riding 60 miles each day - it's running isn't it? he'll keep doing this until he realises he can't get away from himself.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Absolutely...his bike rides are a form of escape! He's only rides 3 days a week that far or he'd REALLY escape (die)!

My H won't or can't go to counseling on a regular basis. However, I do think he's come around since a year ago and the deep pain that he was experiencing. It was as if he lost a family member type of pain (without the crying).

I am a believer that God put things in front of us...whether we choose to take advantage of the "lesson" is up to us. My H had his landlord and issues in front of him. As an outsider I could see the lessons that was put in front of my H. The man was divorced 2..going on three times, a substance abuser, beaten up by his wife, and was experiencing suicidal thoughts (heavy). 

My H has never gotten THAT involved with anyone. It was emotional overload. My he even told the guy, after her found out he was entering the condo again, that he NEVER was his friend and NEVER wanted to be his friend. "Just let me pay the rent and THAT's IT." 

Well...the guy just didn't "get it." The night that he was beaten up by his W...he left his door open (condo next to my H's) and he was moaning for my H to come in. My H was "my gosh...what's happened? My H helped him out that night. How do you not?

Then..the guy shared his suicidal thoughts. It was upsetting to my H. But he handled it pretty well. The fact is..usually he would have called me up or asked me to help! 

This is what I mean by God putting things in front of us. These opportunities that we don't always see or take ahold. It was a way for my H to help someone who was really hurting (deep). It was an emotional connection with another human being.

I don't mean to get all "holy" on your thread. It's just my feeling.

K: You do what you need to do. I believe that J will eventually want back with his family. I believe the same for my H. I'm just inpatient and not sure if I can wait another year or two. If I had him saying "just give me time" or something to that effect it would be different. I don't have it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW 
So you are saying that your H has had an opportunity to learn from this guys' tragic death - and perhaps this is the beginning of him opening up to others' personal pain? ...that makes perfect sense...

and I like your lens of looking at the world - the spiritual dimension.
I completely get that this where you gain your strength - 

I have been drawn to thinking about things from a spiritual point of view at different times in my life - both happy and sad and I am in the process of doing this now with my current situation...

My breakthough with this came when I realised that what I missed of J was his 'spirit' his goodness - as opposed to his personality (which I don't miss at all!) 

And this shifted things for me - I spoke to my psych and she put it this way - she said we have a spiritual /soul life and a personality - she said that the trick is to not let your personality development hold up your spiritual development...(sorry am not explaining this too well) she said that she thought that was what was happening with J - I recognised and loved his soul - but he was being held hostage by his personality - a real disjunct between the two - this is the pain ...I think....perhaps

I am glad that God has put you before me in anonymous land CW!


The other thing I just thought was just before he left my H kept on saying to me that he wished he had some spiritual beliefs...I wasn't sure what he meant - but now I know why...something to help to give him another perspective...
does your H have them?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You have a better way with words..that first sentence is a great summary. I believe it has opened his eyes and he has learned something. Wouldn't we live in tragedy if we did not learn things through our crisis? 

This process with this tragic individual was overwhelming and scary for my H. He has a variety of emotions toward this guy. When the end came and things were "boiled" down it was sad. Make you appreciate the things that you have in life. 

Any time you have a disconnect between your thoughts and feelings or your personality and soul or your IQ and achievement (examples)...there are problems. 

How was his personality different from his soul? Can you explain?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW - I don't think I have the real answer to that yet - haven't thought about it enough 

J is just a very good person - he's a teacher and now a school principal - whenever parents meet him he is the person they want teaching their kids...he has this warmth and amazing gentleness to children - and he is funny and calm with them - he is delightful....his goodness oozes out of him -

this is part of his spiritual goodness and in this case his personality backs it up - now you can say this is just wanting/needing to appear good seek publci approval ect. and that is part of it - but it's not the whole story - but being that 'good' to hundreds of students takes it toll...

I think he found he couldn't keep this level of goodness/kindness up at home - we are real human beings with a range of characteristics - so when he felt angry/diagreeable not the NG he didn't know how to express it - scared of the fallout ? 

Alos there is the issue of his late blooming - emotionally - meant that while he was 24 when we got together he was probably really only the equivalent of 16 perhaps - 

so while he is a 'good' person intent on doing the right thing - he had on going issues - and I am listing these from his perspective . 

he never got to split up with me - when he wanted to (didn't want to hurt me) 
had no way of knowing if i was the 'one' 
he felt he was too young to have kids - but wanted them anyway and knew he'd be a good dad 
found out he was very attractive to women and that he could easily have affairs if he wanted 
(more pressure) 
and then middle age - me busy - him busy , money stress and turning 40 existential crisis - who am I? why am I a marriage where I don't feel in love? 
there must be more to life....
I have to be a man and stand up for what I want instead of letting everyone else be happy at my expense... 

so I think the NG stuff compounded with him - and his lack of maturity - he is in a place he doesn't remember making conscious choices to get to...he is waking up....

but he is very sensitive and very kind and very good - a genuine nice NG

and his spirit and his soul are way ahead - in som nay ways perhaps because he suffered so much as child (as you did) this gives you painful insight - but it also in his case led to the opportunities for his personality to be fully developed to be limited - 

does this make sense - think I only started to get to it when I got to the end of the post ....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

You are doing great K, you really are. I thank you for posting you soul on her and for your support to me.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You're so introspective. I sense your H is waking up.

I sense you are waking up as well!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks guys I am waking up - and thanks for reading all this stuff can't be easy to follow sometimes! 
I am feeling at peace - still moments of anger and despair and sadness - but so much more at peace...


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

never understood the whole mid-life crisis. I turn 40 in 8 months and yes I ahve my little things I have done. I shaved all my facial hair off and bought some hip clothes. I already had the sports car from when I was younger like 28. Then again no matter how much crap I go through I stand by my wife...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

LH, you are an inspiration.

K, you are blossoming before our eyes!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You've come along way. Your confidence is showing through your posts. It's wonderful that you are gaining strength and sharing with others. Thank you for being a strong and positive voice!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks as always guys - I need to follow through on practical matters now - it's like a game of leap frog - I work some emotional stuff out but in the meantime the practical stuff gets left behind - 
back to how I can keep house and survive! yeeeeks!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

It is the night before my son's birthday - it is storming here after no rain for 2 months - tonight I am tired and I don't understand how he can elect not be here - when it storms here it is wild and the power went off for a while - the kids got scared...he should be here with them - looking after them 
it is my son's birthday and I am wrapping the presents by myself - I am close to letting go of him -
it is too exhausting doing this by myself 
I hope he is miserable and alone for a long time - I do.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I know how you feel about your H when you say things like that. I've thought the same thing about my w. But then I realize if she is miserable it will affect my son. I just want my so to have as stable an upbringing as possible.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey FA - that's a good point! just venting you know how it is - I don't really wish him any suffering (well maybe a little when he isn't with kids!)


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes I know how it is K. Same here, knowing that she had just a little misery in her life would make me smile some more. I don't know if it would or not.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, I'm glad you allow yourself to vent. It's perfectly healthy. I just can't wrap my brain around your H not wanting to be there for you and your children. Then again, I don't understand a lot of what's going on with my situation.
I'm sad for you. I'm sad for us all.
Keep up the good work!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I hope your son's party is a blast! It's lonely celebrating without your mate...however it something to get used to and is normal to have all of these feelings. I think we know that by now! No fun but we are doing just fine!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Have had the present opening - my S had a lovely time - he hugged me and said it was the best birthday ever - if only his dad was here....am going to spend the day cooking devils food cake and lasagne - J is coming over for cake later how weird it must be for him to be a 'guest' at his son's birthday... what a price to pay


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Absolutely. For my son...my H didn't make cake. He had plans for dinner the next day. My son decided he had better things to do and canceled. First birthday my H missed. I feel bad for both of them. My son is resentful of my H.

Sounds like a good time so far!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm sure that it was hard K. In a way I lucked out having both my kids under one during this time, I don't have to do what most of you have to do, not only take care of your own feelings but your children who know what is going on and have questions. I think from the way your wrote that you handled yourself well K and you venting is normal and healthy! Happy Birthday to your son.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Okay guys have stuffed up - j came over after school for cake ..
first of all I said hi darl -(a slip) ...
then I just started to lose it...we did the cake which didn't taste all that good and now they have gone out to the park and I am weeping - what a mess...how can he do this ? I just want to enjoy this day...........what an idiot I am thinking that I was brave enough to get through this - 
he is withdrawing again because we spoke the other day....
have to get those emotional boundaries up again


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

You can do it K. YOu can just think and say out loud - I'm a strong and powerful person. My needs come before all others except my kids. I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

You've got to give yourself positive affirmations. I'm doing that every day, especially when I am sad.

It is starting to help.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes..K don't feel horrible for showing emotions. You are human. I know you plan on being strong and your body has other plans. 

You are probably right with the emotional boundaries. It's cruel to have to live this way. Really.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks so much FA
I can do it
I'll just fill you in on where things stand with J & I now - mainly for myself so that I have it written...

he says he has always had "significant" doubts fears and worries about "us" - that's ALWAYS 
coincidentally he was 'in love' with me when I became preganant with our first child - he was keen to have children - etc
then life just happened - one thing after the other - 
that is true - we have moved often for his work and we had another child - 
he harboured these doubst withut sharing with anyone - at times they would become worse...
he never spoke to me - or anyone - he would never speak about 'us' - although we spoke a lot about the kids...
one of the reasons that he stayed was because he thought that if he couldn't love me he wouldn't be able to love anyone...???
he continued not to really 'speak' to me becaus ehe was scared of what would come out...scared of the consequences. 
when he turned 40 it was all too much - he was infatuated with a girl at work and he said he just couldn't do it any longer....
he left for a few months, missed me and came back - why? 

because 'felt' right - 
but the good times didn't last
he felt 'worse' about us than ever and left again...

when he left he wanted to leave the door open - 
said we are still married - just living apart - I don't know what is going on with me - I am not going to get involved with anyone else...

he has neer come back - and doesn't want to - hasn't said this to me openly until tonight..(didn't want to hurt me) 

he misses some aspects of our life, is lonely but feels better...
that's it...
so while life was a happy accident for me - it has been an unhappy one for him...
that's pretty much it.

I have lived with someone who really didn't want to be with me - honestly...wow. 

now that's emotional dishonesty!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

So his feelings changed and he never told you about it. Then because he never told you about it he HARBORED these feelings. He hyperfocused on these feelings of wanting out...that was all he could think of was wanting out...he thought he could stay but those feelings were too strong when he turned 40! 

He never got any relief...it was a muscle aching to be used. It was a button waiting to be pushed. He had to do and he did...he left. Turning 40 and a new love interest was enough to put him over the edge. 

He felt relief but not the kind of relief he was expecting. He started doubting his decision. He loved his boys. He had chemistry with you. He had feelings (what kind?) for you. He was lonely. He came back but not fully. You didn't know this but he did. He came back for the wrong reasons.

He's back in the house...routinues are gathered. He doesn't have the "in love" feeling like the OW gives him. He's tied down again. He is feeling trapped. The issues that he had never went away. He doesn't tell you (again). He doesn't express himself. He is starting to focus that he may want out. He doesn't want to hurt his kids or you (again). He know if he leaves than he HAS to leave for good. He can't put his kids and you through anymore.

Hence...."I'm never coming back." 

His issues aren't resolved. He seems resolute and who knows at this point. Get your ducks in order financially. It will be a process before our H's wake up. They are smart guys...they will eventually but hell...another year of this! No thanks.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW you summarised it so much better than I could have - he now has the perfect reason not to come back - he tried that and it just hurt everyone...can't come back unless he is 100% committed he will never be that with me - possibly not with anyone - but he won't hold himself to that with anyone else - he can enter new realtionships because they don't ever require as much committment...however here's the clincher - he tells himself that he _will _meet someone to whom it _[won't be an effort_ to 100% committ - he now knows that is what he has to do to make a relationship work...he just doesn't want to do this with me - too many years of pain and heartache...


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

K....I'm late to the party but wanted to say "great job" on your talk the other day where you said you needed to move on. I know you will have up and down days but it really is best to move on. Your H has much work to do on himself. Don't let him suck you back in until he's completed his work.

CW....I really enjoyed your story about the landlord and your H. ("Land Lord" - hmmmmm, interesting huh?). I don't consider myself a religious person but I am a spirtual person. It was kind of neat how those events unfolded in your H's life.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D8zed was wondering where you were ! 
Thanks - I do have to move on - think it's pretty much over between my H and myself...guess that's the way it goes


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: He's fooling himself on many levels. Thinking that another woman isn't going to want his commitment. Good luck buddy! And if he find her...he's gonna have his hands full getting HER to commitment (if ya know what I mean).

It's too easy and acceptable to walk away from your family for many superficial reasons. Disappointing.

D8zd: We missed you! I enjoyed the landlord story as well. It's ironic how my H leaves to be "alone" and ends up with a soap opera. I feel sorry for how things turned out for the landlord. He was supposedly a good guy when not under the influence. Now my H deals with the landlords wife (the one the beat him/landlord before she left).


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes I think J has much to learn in relationship land - most of his have gone on in his head !!!!!!!!!!!! ours included...
it's new day have sent him a friendly email and am moving on - birthday is over I survived with only a few tired tears and a couple of emotional conversations with my ex... 
I told him in the email that he should be grateful that all I ask for is a chat every now and then other ditched spouses would do far worse! Which he may live to find out....hee hee


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

They just don't know how good they have it. 

A friend of mind went for the jugular with her H. Once he decided he was out-SHE was on FIRE! She didn't let go until the end and $30k in attorney bills (her's only). She got what she wanted as well.

My parents divorce had a trial divorce to determine things in the 80's. Horrible event. They didn't have much (middle class). They don't do this as much thank goodness.

Many divorces are full of ugliness and bitterness. Revenge and anger are the main course.

My H's best friend says "for a couple going through a divorce you get along better than most married folks." Nothings changed.

Maybe I am a pushover. I just don't like drama.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wow K you sound a lot better today. i"m sad today. Tomorrow I move out of where I've lived for 7 years and in the area for 9. I will back in this area in the future, but now I need a good healthy environment to regroup and really gain my strength. The strength that my w was initially attracted. Not for her, but for me. Back then I didn't give a darn about anyone. Moved when I wanted to, did what I wanted. I guess that is where I am now except for a beautiful son.

I feel like talking to a friend of mine who lives - well I don't know right now where he lives - one of the stans from the break up of the Soviet Union. Here's a guy who never left North Carolina his entire life until he was almost 30. With the exception of Myrtle Beach - which is only a couple miles south of NC. All he wanted in life was a family. I don't know what happened to him, but one day he sold his house and just roamed across the US for about nine months. Then he showed up on my parents doorstep to tell them he was going into the peace corp (just right after the iron curtain fell and the Soviet Union unraveld) to teach these countries how to set up a banking system like ours. Since then he works contract jobs and has lived in 31 countries and visited much more. He married an Bulgarian woman he met (actually saw him on CNN getting out of that country when the dictator was overthrown and interviewed). But because of the nature of their jobs he and she hardly live together. But when they are together they travel for a couple months together. Seems to work well for them.

Anyway, you never know maybe I'll call him and see if i could do the same.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow what a tale about your friend - sounds like although you are sad you are beginning to think about the possibility of a new kind of future - every now and then I let myself think that...
do you know all that I have wanted to do the last few years was go an live in the US or Canada - my H can get a job there really easily - when he came back after leaving the first time - we actually downloaded the paper work so that we could apply to go - take the whole family and live somewhere different - 

just yesterday I was thinking of calling my H and saying let's go - pack up the 4 of us we'll be alone and having fun -

you sound like you have done some travelling - anywhere you really liked?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

FA: Your friend has had a varied and exciting life! I looked up the Peace Corps when I found out my H wanted to leave....

I would do it in a heartbeat but have my D still here and couldn't bare the thought of leaving her for months at a time. 

Maybe I'll meet you somewhere in the Peace Corps when we are old and gray!!

Come'On K...we'd welcome you here in the US. Great adventure! 
The house across the canal from ours is a rental. It used to only rent to the Australian military families. We had 3 families from Australia live there (separate years). Great families and alot of fun! My kids were around the same age of one of the families. They hung around for a few years and had a great time together.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh CW - I would at the drop of a hat - but this is one of the dreams I've had to let go of ....my H and I love our American culture - music - sport (that's why our kids play baseball - it's pretty unusual here) why am I meeting you online now when I can't go? why is life like this? DANG


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

CW, actually he was only in the Peace Corp for 2 years. But then he started taking contract jobs with all these UN, global organizations. He's worked for OPIC, the World Bank, all sorts of international agencies. My mother kind of adopted him as her 3rd son when I was in college and his parents were -- we'll just say not there for him. Buy yes hard to believe that Opie from Siler City, NC ended up this way. I only say Opie because he actually knew Aunt Bea form the show -- she lived and died in Siler City, NC. So sad, in the end she was a cat lady with 30 or 40 cats living in her house and nobody could get her out, not even Andy Griffith.

K, you can always go. Think about it you can. I know your kids are young, but you can always come to where I live. That is a promise that I will let you hold for a long time. But at the same time I'd love to be in Australia too.

I've traveled some, mostly the Caribbean, Mexico, Bahamas, Mexico. Not like my parents for the last 7 years of so. They've been to Africa, Chine, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Peru, Ecaudor, the Galapogos Islands, Israel, most of eastern Europe, through the Panama Canal on a trip, through Alaska on a boat and train trip. Talk about doing it all. I'm waiting for them to go to Antarctica - the only continent they have left. That was always my mother's dream to travel. Some people realize that you have to wait for your dreams to come true, my w doesn't accept that - narcissist tendency for the here and now. To bad for her. She is a Beatles fan through and through - that is why our son is named Harrison after George. Middle name is mine after Terry Bradshaw of the Pittsburgh Steelers 70s dynasty. Anyway, I always thought in my dreams I would take her to Liverpool to see where it all started for the Beatles -- her loss. I'll take Harrison just by myself.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh LH liverpool what a great idea - I grew up listening to my big sisters play the beatles - the later stuff I remember most - young people are really into them again too - the pittsburgh stealers (is that baseball?) sorry for my ignorance! 
not sure I'll get out of Australia anytime soon - I have travelled quite a bit - lived in Paris and the UK - and I was desperate to go away with my H - he had the chance to come to New York with me and he didn't....I didn't enjoy it without him - looking back it was time when he was almost completely withdrawn from me - and it was only when I went across the world did I really sense it - I remember being so surprised that I missed him more than I missed my kids - was so telling - 
I have missed him for such a long time


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's amazing, when we have distance, that we can reflect on our lives. I have looked back on vacations and can now tell when things started going wrong (in his eyes). Just judging from behaviors and all.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Got to be some great esperiences traveling like that. I haven't done a ton but would like to someday. Time is what gives you the opportunity to look back. I guess this is why we need to give them space. The problem I see is sometimes they don't know how to return after they had that time. Some are afraid to say anything and the longer it goes the harder it gets. 5 years ago when I did this I would drop suttle hints to the wife that I would welcome her back if she ever needed to.. Sort of a way of leaving door open.. hard to do without seeming like a doormat though..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH you are right - and the issue isn't so much appaering like a doormat it is being a doormat! 

But my H knows I'd take him back - at the moment it just puts more pressure on him - he wants the relief of being able to think I have moved on - I haven't told him research indicates it will be at least 2 years until this happens - we have over 18 months to go! 

It's great to hear from you by the way and we are thrilled that you are concentrating on R and don't have as much time for on-line stuff - that is the most brilliant reason - we will miss you !


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH: Did you wife make the first moves to come back into the relationship (5 years ago)? Did you invite her first? 

K: I wonder what would happen if you said...hubby I am moving on without you. I happen to be interested in dating? (Not that you are or anything).


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I went quiet for almost a month just exchanged emails on daughter. She made the first move though said her family pressured her. Though that was bs. She came to my work one day and invited me to Xmas dinner at her families home. Everybody was surprised. To bad she didn't learn and we failed again. Not this time though I refuse to allow her to stop and will continuous support until that wall is down
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH you guys have had an interesting history haven't you? No wonder you are the world expert on your wife! 

CW My H would be hurt but secretly relieved - it would release some pressure - he's feel free to pursue OW...it wouldn't change his mind - he knows me too well - he knows that I am not going to be dating right now....

He also knows that I won't go 'looking' for love - traditionally I rely on chance and luck for love - no reason to expect I'll change takc there either - remember he knows me !


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Yes..I understand. I am fiercely loyal and traditional. He knows how I feel. It's against my nature.

However, the look was priceless when he came to me 2 months after separation and wanted a divorce. I said "OK. I'd like permission to date!" 

I'm not sure if that was right or wrong. I don't care at this point. Serves him right to get a little shook up.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

K and CW: Are you both saying that you won't date at the time? I know my marriage was a whirlwind and I can't even fathom what it would be like to be married the length of time some of you have been and then to have this happen, so I'm sure its different. However, I know that I have been told that for me at least, it would be good to get out and date. So I'm just wondering why you two won't? Is it bc its hard to imagine it? Again I know our situations are different, and the truth is I am willing to bet I will never see my H again more than likely but I was told to go out and date. However that advice hurts at the same time....do you think that you all will date again?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash I think I'll eventually find love again - I do - there's nothing major standing in my way ...at the moment I am learning to be myself alone again and it's not bad - I am busy, work, boys and unresloved separation issues....and I don't think it's wise for me at this stage - I could do something superficial but that doesn't interest me at the moment - I think in about 18months if I had to put a time frame on it I may be ready - doesn't mean that I'll find love then of course - but that's about how long I imagine it may take for dust to settle - I may want to revenge date if I see my H with someone - but that wouldn't be good would?

I think with you though you are so much younger and therefore so much more likely to find someone quickly - also in your case your kids would benefit from a step dad - I don't want my kids to have a step dad....so how I negotiate all that is tricky....single feels better for me now.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- We have had a VERY wierd marriage. Not the norm for sure. We were both kids. Had no clue how to work on a marriage. I think we went through the motions for the first 7 years. Neither of us knew what a marriage was or what we needed to do.. I am serious. We played house. Then after the first kid reality of working more on the marriage hit.. Wife was supposed to be a SAHM.. Then after I built our house I lost my job and I was a SAHD. Well that burned her.. That was the start of our first break up. I know I didn't do what I needed to in our marriage to make it better but my wife has some SERIOUS issues that will make any relationship fail. First is her low self esteem. her need for attention from OM to make her feel good. She is seeing this. Asking herself why she needs this attention. It's amazing she has never had a PA.. Though she has had plenty of EA and that was cause of it. Then 2nd she has this major wall of her true feelings. She is afraid to get hurt but I have been consistantly telling her if she leaves that wall up we are DOOMED.. You can't love somebody only part of the way in. It's ALL your heart or nothing. I am giving her time but this has to happen.. If not I am moving on cause I can't take the stress any more. This is the last time I fight for her. I am 40 now and refuse to waste any more time. I am an expert on my wife cause I read. I figured out what is going on with her and know what to say to make her know I see the issues. I also worked on myself so she felt I was making the first move to improve our marriage. Kind of like stepping up to the plate.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH you are such an inspiration to me and I am so glad that you can still find the time to post - it is just so interesting to hear your story and how much you know about yourself and your relationship...lives are so amazing...people are so amazing...love is amazing....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Love is amazing if you allow it to.. Facts are most men are afraid of their feelings and are afraid to look weak. I wish I was better at this. I want more... I don't care what it looks like to other people.. This is what life is about not all the crap around it. Everybody loses sights on it. I have for years.. 


I am trying to find time to post cause I think it helps me focus more on what I got seeing all these horror stories. I am going in late to work today and I don't have any kids.. So I am trying to load up on the posts.  I feel so bad for the people with their love being lost and wanting to be loved so bad..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH you are so right - this is what life is about - this is why we are here to love and to learn - realtionships and how you treat others this is what is important in life - everything else is window dressing...I feel like coming to this forum is like studying on what is important in life - what really matters.....weird thing is I think my H feels the same - he has nver cared for careers or material things either - just being kind and caring and doing the right thing by the people we come into contact with each day - how is it that I have fallen so off his radar?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Cause if you put your time and effort into everything instead of prioritizing you lose sight. I have found the key and will always keep it in front now. You have to focus on your spouse FIRST.. Then trickle everything else. Life is too distracting.. That's why I am going to make a life change soon or NJ will kill us. As my wife said we need to make the jump to save our family. Slow everything down. Get back to basics and focus on what is important. I just text the wife what her song was for me. We have our song but I have always felt that was mine to her. She wrote back Kenny Rogers Through The Years. It's a wonderful song. Nice to see some emotions out of her. I don't get it much cause that wall is always protecting her heart.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH: I like the idea of getting back to basics. I know it sounds silly but I don't wear my 20 year anniversary ring. I only wear my wedding ring. It signifies the beginning or the basics for me. 

I would like to simplify my life. I will do that when/if this D goes through. But my personality is like that so it's easy.

Ash: I don't have any notion to date now. For me...I am still officially married. Plus, I am not emotionally finished with my marriage (still hope and mixed signals). I also want to heal my heart before I start getting involved with others. It's not fair to them.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Am trying to come to terms with some hard truths today.

1. my H is seeking help and working on himself - this is good - and positive 

2. this does not mean at all that 'working on himself' will lead him back to 'us'

3. in fact what he wants is to put 'us' behind him - move on

4. he told me all he wants to do now is concentrate on being a good father - I believe this is true - 

5. It hurts me so much that his idea of being a good father does not include being with the mother of his children. He has split from me as a romantic partner - now he wants to work on splitting from me as a co-parent. That's logical - next step.

6. I am still (after 1 year) trying to work him out - secretly thinking if I can find this magic key it will all make sense and I'll know what to do...

7. The NG stuff is interesting and explains a lot - he's not an 'idiot' with this stuff and although he may not be using the term NG I do think he is probably dealing with it with his psych. But it won't change anything for us: I'll explain why. 

8. He acknowledges that 'not being honest' not having any honest relationship talk completely undermined his marriage.

9. So while it would seem logical to some of us on this board that he might think well now I can recognise that honesty is crucial to a healthy relationship I could apply this logic to being with K and see how it goes the problem is this 
the 'truth' that was revealed is that he doesn't want to be in the relationship at all. And his truth has a toxic historical twist. He has "always had significant doubts and reservations". Therefore whole relationship is emotional lie.

10. Therefore he must be honest - get out- move on find someone who he truly loves and let me do the same.

That's it - that's how he sees it.

And all I can assume is that his psych backs him up on this?

WHo knows he was in such pain being with me .

But guys who am I ?
WHy am I still obsessing about this?
I bet you are sick of reading this stuff !

I am thinking a lot about respect and feeling so much like he doesn't respect me - he says he does -
but the thing is how do I respect myself?

I need to shift my focus to me - it feels like I am losing him if I do this - but he is GONE! he says he is still confused but that is NG stuff. 

How can I shift back to me ? How can I accept he has gone and doesn't want to come back?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I know know K...how do you accept?

Those facts that you have listed could have been my facts.

We are still married. That keeps us tied.

We still have kids together. That keeps us tied.

We still love each other. That keeps us tied.

How can we cancel those things out? (not the kids)

You can't. I am afraid.

I can't move on until the divorce. I am moving foward but I still wear my wedding ring. I still hope and pray. 

Until I say.."I am divorced." Until I remove my wedding ring and live in another house will I know that I HAVE to move on. To be healthy, I HAVE to move on at that point. 

Right now..we are waiting and hoping and praying.

Your #6 is what I am looking for.."the magic key." If we say, look or act a certain way then that will be "it." They will rethink. 

I know, one thing, this is a slower process than I could have imagined. 

K..I don't know how to refocus on "me" either. I keep doing thing and going through the motions but I still come back to "HIM." It all about him. 

How do you let him go, when we are tied this way?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I have cat. What do you spell. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW I am glad that you have the idea of divorce and moving house as cues for moving on - that's what I need - do I pick a date? do I divorce him? do I start making a conscious effort to move on - instead of just hoping time will fix it? How do we do this CW?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, you sound like me. I could have typed that myself. And I too, don't know how to do "this." CW seems to have it all figured out. I wish I could handle this like she does. Because I really believe her H will be back. I don't know about us though, K. I wish I had the answers. I know I'm tired and so pained. I know you must be, too.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: What is he waiting for? There is a waiting period right? How much longer? Is he filing? 

If you are like me..you almost hate to ask these questions and force them to move. Like you are tempting fate. 

I don't want to ask my H about the divorce. I let him approach the subject. You won't see me asking him about anything. Our time period will be up in less than a month. We can, if we are ready, get a divorce.

If you have a longer period of time to wait...then why approach the subject? I would however figure out the financial part. Other than that...maybe letting him go. Like everyone here is telling me....have a date. Let him know. Maybe we are being too nice and patient?

It's easier said than done.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

K, if you don't want the divorce and if you are still in a waiting period, then like CW said I wouldn't bring it up. You will know in your heart and your head when you just have to let it go. But you have to be honest with yourself. Once you know that you have tried everything that you can do, and that hasn't worked then its time. And you might say well i will spend the rest of my life trying to put us back together. The only thing is you can't put something back together without the right ingredients. And the right ingredients are needed by both parties. Give it time, give it space, that's why there is that period between filing and the finalization. Think things through and be honest. And yes the honestly may hurt, it hurt me once I knew that I had done everything that I could, thats when I sent the email to my H. And it still hurts and I still wish that it wasn't going down this route. But I also know I did what I could from my end and I gave him chance after chance after chance, and it just came down to me finally letting go. Have an honest, heart tearing converstion with yourself, you might come out better for it...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash thank you - I wil keep on trying for that honest chat with myself - I just thought I was much clearer when he left the first time - one of my problems is that I am conditioned to think he may come back again - he came back once - why not again? 
I am conditioned to think he doesn't really know himself or know what he is doing - a fact compounded by the fact he won't be clear or straight - he won't ask for a divorce in a hurry - but that's also a cultural thing - it's far more common for people to 'not divorce' here - each time I have asked him if he wants to divorce he says I don't know and looks at me as though I am saying something very hurtful....but I am talking about him again - got to stop!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Culturally, what do people do there when they don't divorce but want to...do they remain separate and go on with their lives? 

Is this very common?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep - just live separate lives and only get divorced when one party wants to marry - my H's father and mother were separted for 16 years and reconciled after that! (weird story - not a great example)


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Sometimes this happens here because of finances and all. 

I would have a hard time moving on without the divorce.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes I have only started to think that maybe I need to (divorce) for myself - not for him but for me - he is too ambiguous and shady a character - he would be in my subconscious forever unless I clear him out somehow ....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

A bad day for me - I am full of anger - thinking that he hasn't respected me doesn't respect me - very angry with him indeed and very tired


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- take a deep breath. I know it builds up.. How about an escape. Like to a bar to have a drink and some food?? Try to find something positive to refocus.. I lost 20lbs during my issues. Wife not happy cause she gained it...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: It's good to get angry as we have been extremely nice to our H's despite their behavior.

I don't like to be angry for long...not my style. 

I'm like you in regarding a divorce....it will help me clear the plate. Even though emotionally I will always be tied to him in some way. I hate that thought.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH, that is funny she gained what you lost. K, if you want to clear the plate then take the step to do it. Don't wait. I think you need to do what is best for you. It is going to take him time to resolve his issues. Now you are seeing as you said a while back or he admitted that he swung the pendulum to far to thinking of himself. That can happen with a recovering NG. They forget the basic goodness in side of them and become a self serving jerk for a while.

I am being careful not to do that. I will put my needs first which is what everyone should (exception children) but not without thought to others. That is what your H wasn't doing.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Everything I read and have been told says that anger is part of the detaching process. I'm uncomfortable with anger. It's more exhausting than the grief.
K, I want you to know that I think you're incredibly loving and courageous. Capacity to love=strength in my book!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I agree....that anger is exhausting! I think that's why I wane in and out of it. 

K...Wren has it right. You are loving and courageous. Any man would be lucky to have you. Any friend would be lucky to have you!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks guys - I am taking everything you say to me on board and pondering it (as is my style) ...am less angry today - 
it is a beautiful day and my son has his birthday party on -
so sad to be doing it without H - 
but hey


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ah my son's birthday - what a toughie - a pain in my heart all day - he had 12 friends over - they played soccer - ate pizza and ice-cream cake - I missed my husband every second of it - and more so after every one has gone home - you know that lovely feeling when you sit and reflect on how the days was - the kids ...all that you share what happened - and I can't think I am the only one suffering today -
big big pain....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh K, I feel for you so much.
Does love really have to hurt this much?
What are we going to do?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: So sorry the day was bittersweet. I never thought the fact when the kids go home and there is time to reflect and clean, etc. This would effect me also. It's those little things that you aren't aware of until they are gone. 

You ask yourself, am I going to always feel this way? 

I went to a bar last night with a friend. She introduced me to a new woman that husband recently left (2) days ago. This woman was outgoing and quite forward. She was asking guys to dance and was BOLD! It was her 3rd marriage and married for 1.5 years. 

I gotta say...I've been going through my stuff a year. She was acting out but I feel that marriage is important to many people....but it's treated as disposable.

It was suprising to see someone acting out so quickly. Even today, I can't do it.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, I know what you mean regarding the reflection on the day. I just miss being able to tuck my little guy in every night. I guess we just have to stop thinking about things like that.

CW, well obviously to that woman marriage is disposable. I just don't see myself being able to do that either. To me marriage is an institution that should not be taken lightly -- "for better or for worse". I just don't get how people can be so cavalier about it, but then as we've discussed before it is becoming so much more me, me, me in today' world.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- I feel you getting sucked in hard.. I think in a few weeks its going to get really tough with x-mas. Hang in there hun.. I hope he feels it too..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks guys - am getting sucked in hard - and he is feeling it too - but doesn't change anything - he's tough = used to lots of pain - he'll just be chalking this up to same same....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Just keep moving forward K. We are all here for you.

Happy Halloween!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I know hun...nothing changes no matter what. Kinda have these feelings as well.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Want to get a kick out of Halloween? Take a lok at some of the pics I put up.. We all got dressed up..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What awesome pics LH! Such a beautiful family!!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes LH - your daughter is amazing looking and a lot like your wife!

Now team I am going to try and move on - I have thought today that I need to articulate my anger - not the wild implusive in rage feeling but the on-going thud that I have as regards my situation...I think I have been too dismissive of this - mainly because I don't 'do' anger very well and I have never wanted to have an 'angry' relationship with H...
but you know I haven't put it all down clearly...
I talk about my frustration, my disapointment, my sadness but not my anger...do you know I think I am scared of anger myself?

I have really taken on board the advice from folk who say don't hold onto the anger - it ony eats back in at you -and I have been wishing to heed that advice - but maybe a little prematurely - 

I am thinking of allowing myself a month or so of anger -

so over my next few posts I am going to be talking anger ....

once I work out what it is that I am angry about that is!!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- Get that anger out. Nothing good can happen for you until that happens.. It's god to see you addressing it..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Anger is only bad when it doesn't serve you well ie. staying stuck and emotionally paralyzed. Let it out, K! You have every right to be angry! I'm angry for you!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

:2gunsfiring_v1::banghead::FIREdevil::cussing::rules::gun::woohoo::soapbox::rant:


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes K you need to allow yourself to be angry to get rid of it. Anger is just an emotion like happiness, etc. It must be dealt with. For me my anger comes from my issues. So discovering what my anger is based on comes from turning things around and taking responsibility for my issue. Then I can verbalize it without being "angry". Also gets rid of it faster for me.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I get what you are saying K..personality wise it seems we are a bit similiar. Lots of energy to get anger and usually it doesn't stay long. It may be a personality trait...not bad or good. It may surface but not like our other emotions. As long as you recognize and deal with it as best as you can.

I am angry for you as well.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, are you out there? Hope all is well.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thinking of you, K. Check in when you have a chance.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I got a PM yesterday from K...she is taking a breather. Probably will post another thread.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks for checking in on me guys - am re-grouping - am pretty much where CW is at - need to get it over and done with - too much pain for too long...when I am feeling a bit more positive I may begin a new post just as FA did when he felt it was time to move on....I am still reading everything - just too tired to comment right now...
K


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Just know we are here for you.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Looking forward to your new thread K! You can do it!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi guys
have no energy fo rnew thread I am afraid....for some reason the grind of everything has settled on me and I am finding things very tricky indeed - have spent most of today crying and very pained...it is like a form of emotional exhaustion I think - I desperately want to run away and have someone look after me 
very very tough time.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

We are here when you are ready....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh K, I wish I could hug you. I hate this.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thankx W likewise. it'd be nice to have a cup of tea together wouldn't it?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes. Because I don't know about you, but it seems all my "friends" and loved ones have reached their limit of support and empathy. I'm fighting this battle alone.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

It's hard for them to understand if they haven't been through and it is hard for them to stay with the pain - they just want it to be over for your sake - but it is lonely I agree


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's lonely for us alright. We are without our partners. We didn't choose this life. It's hard for others to understand unless they've been through it (especially with the reasons that were given). 

However, we do have this space on the net. A place we can come any hour to post our latest or help others. It really is a great source of support. Someone always here to listen.

For the most part this will be a lonely road and we will have to find our way. 

Hugs to all!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes it is lonely when the family and friends are tired of hearing it. I know I did that to them. It's just a shame it has to happen.. I can tell you how many people I talked to...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

That's why I need this place so much - everyone here gets the pain and the obsession and no-one thinks I am a loser for saying how it is -
the rest of the world can't handle it - but you guys can !!!!!!!!!!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You are no loser. To feel is courageous!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey thanks Wren - am 'feeling' ok right now - yay!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Stay present in those moments, K!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

I know for me everytime things get "over my head" I just come on here and type it out...it helps. Oh and I always look forward to reading comments by you K they give me hope. As far as you, I think your doing great considering all aspects of the situation. And I think you gave me this advice a little while back...fake it until its real. Keep "faking" the strength, that your ok, and one day you will wake up and you won't be faking it.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's like we are keeping an online journal with comments/advice given. It's really helpful. 

Glad you are feeling better.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys I am so feeling stronger - I am so starting to believe in myself again and to just feel stronger than him - now when I imagine him he is a weak person - someone hiding and avoiding - 
I am feeling brighter and so much lighter - is this what detatching feels like?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It's not allowing you to be effected by your relationship issues. It's exsisting as if this is the new life.. Yes it is like that.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yay!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm happy for you, K. You are such an inspiration to me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W really? that's such a lovely thing to say....thank you ...I am just clawing my way back into the land of the living....but you know how you are so grateful for those times you feel okay...the times that you find your 'self' again ...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Absolutely-grateful! This is how I feel about my H...as if he's weak. Can't handle his family...can't handle crisis...or sticking around when things are tough. 

It's good to have great days to know that they may out number the bad days at some point. It gives me hope for my future.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Funny that you should say that CW 'cause that is how I feel - I see that my H in terms of his weaknesses and this is connected to me feeling strong - sad that it has be a kind of inverse relation - but that is definitely how it is for me at the moment...nothing has changed - I just feel differently about myself and about him -


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Any man who runs from their issues is a coward. They made their bed and refuse to fix it. As you can tell I don't have many friends. Why?? Cause I am to upfront and people don't like the truth..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH, I would just say that it is any person who runs from the hard times and their issues is a coward, not gender specific.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

FA-- True but I was using that in their issues. My wife was doing the exact same thing their husbands are. Nothing is different.. Blaming others for their unhappiness.. Blaming them for having no life.. Blaming them for the way they turned out. I guess I have no more patience for it..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't have any patience for it either anymore. Because that is what my w has been doing. Blaming me for her issues, her "unhappiness", etc.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys - the really tricky thing for us (and I'll leave you out of this LH) is to learn that we now can't blame them for our 'unhappiness'...this is what I am working on now - I know it is the ONLY way forward for me - I so get that - like I have been studying and studying and the penny has finally dropped - but putting into practice - that's the challenge now....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Good point K...we can't blame them for our unhappiness! Good point indeed..


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wow, that is going to be a tough one for me. Your right K, you are so right, but I guess along with me agreeing that I can't blame him for my unhappiness...might mean that I have to forgive him and I'm not ready to do that yet

But good for you K for thinking that out...that is definetly a good point on your part


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

All theorectical at this stage guys - but I do know if I keep in blaming him I am giving him the power to control my emotions - and no more of that - I am not even in a realtionship with him anymore why would I be interested in letting him have that impact on me - as I said to Ash earlier - he is simply somone who deposits money into my account now - the best way for me to see him...


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Totally understand what you are saying, K.

I learned early that I can't sit around on my butt waiting for my H to make me happy. Only I can make myself happy.

It seems like you are getting some clarity. Keep your head up!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

It is difficult for all of us humans to get that point K, that we are responsible for our own happiness. Your H, CW's H, my w, LH's w, don't see that. It seems so simple looking back at it, but most things that are simple seem to be so complex looking forward, but not backwards. Without that understanding we blame all others in our life for our unhappiness, because as LH has said that is human nature.

Only LH's w is starting to see that now. If you understand that, I think that is where true individual growth comes in. Correct me if I'm wrong LH -- I mean Yoda, bow head and leave shaking terribly from my statement.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

LOL yes FA.. When you start to reflect and see what is making you unhappy and not blaming others for it you are starting to grasp it. People can make you unhappy but they can't make you happy. There has to be some personal drive inside that makes you, you... Something you can do that puts a smile on your face and says I am in my happy place now. I think a lot of people like our spouses fail to look at themselves like that.. Then the blame the nearest person to them cause since your married to them they have to have done this to you. You have manipulated them into who they are. I can almost guarantee all your spouses have said that or made you feel like that. It's so easy to blame somebody for how you feel.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes LH, my spouse was and is doing that. I was the one who couldn't make her happy, etc. I didn't , yada yada, yada. Now some things might be true that I needed to work on, but most of those statements are projections onto the other.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes you probably did things that made her UNHAPPY.. Yet she has to make herself happy. When all said and done who is she going to blame for her not being happy still?? Nobody.. This is when you will get your shot. trust me she has to get there eventually. Now it could be too late for you. That still will be your decision. This is a normal cycle. You will be around cause you have a kid with her.. So it's just a matter of when..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm sure some things I did or didn't do did make her "unhappy", but as you said her happiness is owned by her. Right now she is "happy" with the OMs. But that is just window dressing. An escape and avoid mechanism to get through. Yes, one day - not any time soon - she will see.

As I said though it is hard for me to give her unconditional love at all at this point given her actions.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Don't you love LH ? his logic is impeccable ...
happiness - another thought 
you know my mum (very wise lady - not big on offering advice or telling you what to do in life - 
just looks at me in a kind of semi-disbelief when I say J has gone off to find happiness..she thinks that life is full of suffering and difficulty for all of us ...the trick is to get through this without becoming bitter ....and to know that better times also turn up on you doorstep...she really feels so sorry for him - she does - as though he is inherently 'faulted' - 
and my dad who has dementia and who 'forgets' most of what is going on has said "he won't be happy" ...
they aren't saying this to make me feel better - they love him dearly - he has been a beautiful SIL to them ........
I think what I am saying is that for them leaving to seek 'happiness' is just beyond the pale...
K


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

So true K, so true. Got you note. Great idea with H and R.

Yes my w's mother loves me to death or at least she did. Her whole family did, even her dad's mother who basically hates all men. And I mean that she hates all men. Might be something from her in my w.

Happiness is a journey I guess.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - I can see you being a wonderful SIL - 
I am still DIL number 1 with my FIL ...he has always loved me and vice-versa 
and my parents love my H's dad as well - they still call eachother and catch up - their lovely relationship has survived this!
Which I am so glad about...

J & I often joked in our early days that we could never break up because our families loved eachother so much! 

He now sees this as a 'negative' contibuting factor as to why he 'stayed' with me - in love with my family and not me!!!!!!!!!!!!

truly amazing how a total positive for me can be construed into a negative for him...truly amazing ...

I have always thought how lucky I was to have married into such an beautiful open family..............they are as much of my life as are my family of origin - sorry hate that term! 

but I am realising that although it is difficult I must not be drawn into feeling awkward around them now - I still love them and they still love me - J's crisis is his crisis.....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

That is correct K. I will still love her family. They opened their arms to me. Her parents are much younger than mine - they start early in West Virginia with kids - so they will be involved with H for a longer period of time. I would never deprive him of those times with them. I'd even drive him there myself so he could visit.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my H asking "how do we do this." I was referring to not only breaking up our relationship but the relationship of our families. How do we disentangel our lives? It seems to be piece by piece.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes it's difficult to imagine how detached and disengaged they must be to not recognise this ..or not care about it ...all those connections which hold us in place in life ...they don't feel them


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, right now they don't care really I suppose. You'll laugh that when around my parents now my w acts like nothing has happened etc. Gives them hugs etc. Remember my parents know everything about what has transpired. She just amazes me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

What arse ! and you think you are guilty of emotional dishonesty - ?????


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

FA- I think your wife needs a dose of her own medicine.. Time for you to put on that happy face and start to date. I know your still married but she has already done it.. Why not?? Turn the tables..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm not ready to do that LH. I know it would give her a dose of reality. I just can't do it -- I am married.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

And yes K, my parents shake their heads as well. They don't say anything to her or act differently. They just can't believe the way she is acting. I wish her mom could see her, she would just slap her upside the head if she knew the truth.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

She's not honoring that vow.. Wh do you think you have to?? I understand that you shouldn't just to get back at her but you could be missing out on somebody that will love you back. Are you going to wait until the D is final??


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH, most likely I will. It might sound old fashioned and yes she hasn't lived up to the vow. Of course in her mind as soon as she decides it is over there is no vow. We'll see. I figure the OM2 from WV will tire of having to travel to see her. That should take a few months. Of course she goes up there as well, but eventually there would be that talk about being together. And now that she has cornered herself with custody issues with me, he would have to move here. He as a daughter - she looked around 10 or 11 - I can't imagine him doing that. But she can't leave this area or she has to give up custody to me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

We are all waiting - things havent played out yet for any of us......


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wow FA it seems like your wife has in a sense "weaved a very sticky web". 

In a way I'm lucky, and I have mentioned this before, that I live in PA and my H lives in Texas...at least I don't every have to worry about crossing his path!

It would bother me if we were nearby and he was around my family pretending nothing happened. I don't think my anger issues could take that!

Keep us posted.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes it is as I believe Shakespeare put it "what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive".


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't think I could stomach having my H around my family and him acting like nothing is wrong.

I'm also pretty sure if he steps foot on my parents property, my dad will meet him with a gun. 

Since I'm living with my parents (which happens to be roughly 7 miles from my in-laws), the chances are pretty high that our paths will cross. I have no idea how I will handle that. I haven't talk to them since this all transpired.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm still close with my in-laws. They can't help that her son/brother ran away. They try to be neutral but his sister does think he's lost a few marbles.

We all live within a 10 mile radius. I'm ok with it. 

Just go with what you think is right. You know what the right thing to do is....you are better than your H.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

My in-laws were so behind me. They knew my wife wasn't in right mind. She tried to turn them on me but her lies kept piling up... Then they realized it was her having the issues not me being the problem. Her side knew I wasn't trying to manipulate anything just wanted a better marriage.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Just feeling like crap tonight - why is it when I talk to my H I feel like a mad crazed bit*** and he sounds so calm, sensible, rational, composed....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Cause you want something which is very emotional and he isn't emotional about the same thing. I know it drives you up the wall. How can this person be so calm about a life changing event?? He is either so disconnected that he's in the right frame of mind to divorce or he's fooling himself into thinking it's ok.. Putting on the front. Hang in there K-...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Lh - think he's disconnected - and this makes me even more crazed


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

He probably is disconnected and numb. How else could he leave his family?

It's difficult to see them all friendly and jolly isn't it? Like they aren't affected. They are...they put on a face because we expect them to fail and look miserable. Just as we try. They just do it better. Well, actually I do it better than my H. He doesn't hide about me. At this point, I don't think he can now.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Just a whinging post - car broken, washing machine broken, 3 overdue bills in kitchen want to kill him - unconditional love - what's that?????????????


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K....I know it's overwhelming now. Does he help with the bills?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It's the old saying when it rains it pours. I hope you can talk to him about the issues. YOu still are married.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, I wish I could shake him for you. and then hug you for a long, long time.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Help? he asked me today whether I had paid them and then said that there is $300 in the account!!! If you call that helping? 

But guys I have to say I am so detaching - I know that he has chosen to spend tomorrow night (son's birthday_ without him because he has 'something else on" and guess what? I don't give a rats anymore - he also is trying hard to convince me and himself that he is letting Ray spend the night with me for selfless reasons part of me feels like calling him and just saying - you can fool everyone - even yourself but you can't fool me anymore - but I can't be bothered - if he is daft enough to exchange a night with his boys for time with the OW - I think that says it all - 

I am so detaching - 

so detaching 

how weird is it that our main goal in life is to detach ourselves ????


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I am so detaching -
> 
> so detaching
> 
> how weird is it that our main goal in life is to detach ourselves ????


Good for you, K!
I wish I had the strength. 

I am called an empath so I naturally connect. Detaching is so foreign to me and so far, I am failing miserably!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ok W you will just need to find someone suitable to connect with - maybe this is how you will heal?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

So K..he really doesn't help much. 

He sees the boys when he's convenienced. Make me angry for you.

I definitely see him with OW. I don't think he's been a wonderful actor this whole time. 

At this point K...who cares. You are right in detaching. You deserve so much more. You're such a caring, intelligent women...you'll find your way. 

At this point, I'd rather be alone then have someone that treated me wrong.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, CW is right about detaching and that you deserve better treatment. You are caring and intelligent. Just keep doing what you've been doing with your boys -- I find them extraordinary with what you've shared. I still am in awe of R's metaphor story with the super glue. 

And CW -- the same goes for you. You and K share a lot of the same traits - caring, intelligent and inner strength. 

Neither of you forget that.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW,
he;s not admitting that is what he is doing - but nothing else is logical - I could be wrong - but my reasoning is basedon the fact that I have suggested on several occasions that he has the boys tonight and he keeps on saying that they need to be with me because my family will want to call them???? He said that he had made arrangements because he didn't think he'd be having the boys - (poor John stuff) but when I say have them - he says no...

I am so angry because he is just talking NG crap -

Today he has just been emailing me telling me that he is happy to drive Vince down to our holiday - he still wants to help out ??? 

It is typical of his lack of sensitivity that he doesn't understand how toxic I find him and his presence - 

or how hurtful it would be for the boys to have him 'visit' at our holiday - 
thank you all so much for being here today -

really struggling


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sorry to post again - but now he has just sent me an email answering mine which said I really didn't want him to drive Vince to the holiday saying "I understand" - what an f wit - what does he understand ? 

I so want to call him and yell at him -


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, he is really being a horse's butt. I just can't imagine passing up time with my son. Especially at his age and your kids ages. In such a short time this time will be gone in their lives. And it is so important - at least to me - to be there. Soon they won't want to be "around" their parents.

What a putz. He will regret this big time and it will hurt him deep. Don't let him make you feel guilty for having to say, no they need to be with their father today, tonight or whenever.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

He's sending me photos of the boys - it is freaking doing my head in - what is this what we share now ? I can't even open them


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

WTF is wrong with people? It really can't be cluelessness. Selfish a$$holes!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Hmmmmm....all this drama that all of us could do without.

I heard once that tough stuff only happens to tough people. Somedays than I wish I wasn't a tough person if thats the case!

Oh K, it sucks! I hurt for you and all of you on here because when did life turn to this? When did marriage get to be like this? What happened to when a man and a woman took a vow and actually, oh I don't know, kept it?

Your main goal in life isn't to detach K....it is to learn that the best is yet to come.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash - what a lovely way of looking at things - thank you!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: He's consumed with guilt. Leaving his family and then having another woman. Ok. His deal was he wasn't REALLY leaving you for another woman. He was leaving you because he "couldnt' do us anymore." I don't care what he says. That OW gave him enough push to leave his family. That's why he "couldn't do us." 

All of this pretending to "help" when he really doesn't want to help is so NG. 

Tell him to back off. If you need him, you will let him know. No more offers of help. 

My H is totally like this but I'm handling it differently than you. It's not right or wrong how we handle things. Our circumstances are simliar but different. I just let him offer. I tell him "thanks."
This morning he offered help with the tree. I said "thanks." I have no intention of ever calling him for help. I will need to be dying or it's something with the kids that I can't handle.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys I am back - holiday was so .....difficult - but so full of happy moments as well. It is nice to touch base with you guys again - I went out of my mind being off line ! I am offcially addicted to anonymousland...


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

An anonymous voice in the back of the room mumbles, "welcome back".


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

d8zed when I write my book "anonymousland" (have to negotiate the rights with FA for the title) you will be a very special enigmatic character - the mystery figure at the centre -


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey K!!! I missed you! Glad you had a good (if at times, painful) holiday...you made it through!

I know how you feel the days I don't have time to come on here...I feel like a lost little puppy!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I always feel more grounded when I can connect with my anon-o-friends!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

anon-o-friends! love it!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I feel a bit ansy when I don't get to post for a day! 

I think we have a problem!!!!! haha

Glad the holiday was good despite the absence of H.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

LOL CW- I try to get her as often as I can but I am having a hard time since my wife is struggling so much...


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Glad you are back K.

Looking forward to more of your insightful posts!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K gave me a quick email. It seems that her hard drive has crashed. She says "hi" to everyone!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ok, my friend Johnannes came and fixed my computer temporarily am such a loser I don't know my password for this site or anything else really - so I have been able to read the posts but not respond...I am struggling BIG time again -I don't know why really - i am funtioning ok - on the surface but - I actually think I need to write a longer post ...and no time now...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Tell us K, what is the most difficult part that you are dealing?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpus, so happy to hear from you - maybe my issues are down to not spending enough time on forum....
and thank you for asking.
I think the worst for me is not being able to share the kids - the good the bad and the ugly. 
This is compounded by the fact that I don't understand / can't imagine when or how I could ever feel ok about this.

I feel so much like reaching out to him over the kids - I know that he must be sufferering on this score as well. 

But my counsellor has warned me against any softening of my stance - she thinks that my willingness to understand his point of view - to have compassion for him works against me every time -

as in I end up getting hurt

She urges me to quit imagining how he is feeling.

so guys I think the worst is feeling the connection with him over the kids - and knowing that sharing this is over - forever.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, part of detaching is to stop empathizing and caretaking. I know you want to make sure he is participating in the kids' lives. But you can't let him off the hook. His choice has taken away a lot of perks.
You two will always share the children. But it is now HIS responsibility to be part of their lives.
Does that make any sense?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, I know how you feel about empathizing with the other's point of view. But as your counselor said it gets to you more. I've quit worrying about my w's feelings and the outcomes for her lives for she is the only one who can control them. Not me.

And you can't control him to particpate with the kids. I can't imagine why he wouldn't want to more. But that is just me. Sounds like his guilt is still raging.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ok team - I have trying to dream up a way to play virtual secret santa - and trying to think of other silly things to do - I have just been invited to a Xmas party and the sky is very blue here today..life is good


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Life is good....spend your energy on that part of life. The good part.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

K, you live in Australia right? 

I might (prob am) going to be asking some dumb questions right now...so you have Christmas the same time we do? But wouldn't that make your christmas in the summer?

Try not to laugh to hard if the questions are that dumb! haha I'm just a little confused.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash I am laughing hard - yes we have christmas in summer - complete with roast!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Roast? Roast? Come on bring out that holiday ham!!!! Is that tradition in Australia to have a roast? How interesting. Here it seems ham or turkey.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Roast and plum pudding! My favourite memories of XMAS as a kid were finding the sixpences in the pudding....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

mmm roast and plum pudding!

When I lived in Florida, I had a hard time adjusting to warm holidays. But I guess if that's all you know, then it's no big deal. 

One day, I hope we can all get together for our own anon-o-friends holiday!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Had a weird day today. My eldest son who is only 11 has suddenly started dressing like an emo. True I bought him the skinny black jeans but I didn't realise he was going to put them on and not take them off!
I mentioned to my H that I thought he was a little young for this - very tongue in cheek - and my H sent me some photos of him which he titled emo.

When I got them I was ok. I thought this is fine he is our son and we can still enjoy a joke about him.........in fact I felt pretty good about it 

Later i just was so angry and so sad ...

Now I am non-committal again.

My counsellor keeps on warning me about softening toward him - 
but what happens when you don't have the energy to be angry anymore?

it's ok not expecting anyone to answer this one - it's a bit obscure...just anono - thinking!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, just when you think you have no more energy to be angry, bam! Our poor hearts are resilient! No softening- you deserve better ok?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Love will do that. Only good things come with love.. So if you love him you will soften up.. Just shows you still trying..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Perhaps she mean softening toward him...as in wanting him back or leaning on him. 

You don't have to be angry and you don't have to be soft. There is no right or wrong. 

I see it positive that you were able to look at the pics he sent without crying!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep I guess it is a positive - who knows what it means?
- perhaps it is something we will always do - send eachother pics ? at least it is not words - we have had so many horrible conversations - it feels ok.........I am trying to be open and following my intuition...........I have always thought that my H and I would reach a good place even if we are never 'together' again - maybe this is a tiny way towards that place?

bit lonely tonight though -
wish I had a boyfriend or a couple even!!! (just joking)


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Who knows K, maybe one day you will have a couple of boyfriends!:smthumbup:

Some nights are harder than others. Some nights I go to bed and I feel fine and I just drift of to sleep, then other nights I cry myself to sleep. Just know that everyday you wake up and open your eyes in and of itself is a blessing, and that you made it through another night.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey K, I found this video and I posted it as a new thread, check it out towards the middle of it, it has a lot of good advice


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi everyone - just reporting in that I have been to a XMAS party, drank 2 alcoholic slushies and had a good night. Feel ok. That's all..just wanted to share!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Ohhhh K! Out and about in the world...and with alcohol!! Tends to once in awhile make things better doesn't it? lol Glad you got out and had a good night.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Knowing you had a good night and you're feeling ok makes me smile!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K...are you on this message board tipsy??? LOL


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW - absolutely not ! drove home - was just feeling cheery!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: I have been on the board "cheery" also!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Ohhhhh cheery is that what we call it now? I learn so much from all of you!!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Is that what you people call it over there??


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

you guys I was not drunk!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not even tipsy - just feeling ok...it was not drug induced!!!!!!!!!!! heck if I could drug induce it I'd do it! 

my cheeriness lasted a few days - but came crashing down sadly and quickly when the boys came home - they seemed so happy and so full of fun things that had done without me -

instead of being able to share in their happiness I felt left out - I felt the pain of them having a life outside of me - catching up with family and friends without me -

I am not proud of these feelings at all -

I am just very hurt at not being able to share the boys and their joy anymore - it is a hurt which to be honest hasn't got easier but has intensified over time - 

I am finding things very difficult again


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes K. This will be reoccuring I think. When my H had some friends over, I was curious and jealous. I had never NOT known what was going on in his lives. 

He doesn't do much, so I'd imagine when he does...those feelings will creep up again.

It's a reminder of our separate lives.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

My H emailed me today and asked me if he could keep the boys for XMAS lunch - he already has them XMAS eve. I arranged to meet him to discuss. 

I told him I didn't want to change plans at the last minute and that he could cook them something special on XMAs eve instead.

He was annoyed but quickly said ok - I hadn't thought of that. 

I don't think he had. 

I wish I would have left after that - but I hung around 
I asked him if he wanted a divorce - 
He said 
"I haven't really thought about it"
I said 
"I find that hard to believe -it is a yes or no answer"
He said - "well I think it's inevitable"????

I said well - no it's not inevitable - you have to take some action for this to happen...........

This is how he sees things - just 'happening'....he still can't take responsibility...

I felt really upset afterwards - he never fails to disapoint me -


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- It might be time to take back the control. If you have any shot to make it work you need to push the divorce.. It could either snap him out of push him further but if it pushed him further it was going to happen any way..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey Lh - we can't get divorced for another 6 months - legally that is how it will work here.
It won't push him back but it may clear some things for me.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- Well then I would start making the plans for 6 months from now. I would get all my ducks in a row... You can't keep living in limbo. It's unhealthy..


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes limbo is never good....good for you for letting him know that you need notice if you both are to change plans for the kids...he can't just spring something like that on you...

As far as you feeling more pain again...it happens, stages, and also remember the holidays really make this worse. So keep that thought and just get through these next few weeks and see what happens after that.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You H is such a NG with an NG attitude. 

Didn't want to come out with the word "divorce" as it might upset you and he didn't want you to react. All the while, the writing is on the wall and he can't admit it. Don't rock the boat-eh!

6 months later and you will be DONE Kath! This will eventually give you time to work things out in your mind and what you want your life to look like:

1. Kids
2. Living situation
3. Finances
4. Work
5. Dates

All of it! We have a bright future, K, one with precious friends and family. We deserve all of it.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks CW


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K- my son watches Sprout over here and they have a morning show and the group is from Australia called "The Wiggles" You heard of them?? If so how big are they over there??


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

LH the wiggles are huge here - I hate them - luckily my kids never went for them either!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Well they are korny..  Hey so is Barney over here. People wanted to punch that stupid purple dinosaur..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Barney also drove me mad -


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Spent the first CHristmas eve without my kids. Vince rang very sad. I was so tempted to go and see him. I was lucky to spend it with Yoko my Japanese friend. They don't really celebrate Christmas so it was just another night - this worked well. Tomorrow my plan is just to get through - that's it. 
Merry Christmas to all the broken hearted....this time next year we'll all be feeling better....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

K After you get through this you can handle almost anything. I say almost cause I been told that finalizing the D is very emotional.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, Merry Christmas. Keep going you can do this. We will all get through this. I forget you are ahead of us time wise. I'm sure V and R will have a good day.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

It is Christmas day. I went to his place for opening presents with boys. He was supposed to be making is all breakfast - but....
the boys were really uncomfortable and I had no idea what to do there. I made an executive decision and left early. He is dropping boys back later. I cried and screamed my anger out on the way homw and now I am fine. My house looks beautiful and I am listening to music and I don't have the energy to be cross anymore. Merry Christmas you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Merry Christmas K. Is it nice and warm, sunny with a blue sky? Keep going.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Merry Christmas K! Ours is around the corner here.....

You sound like you are doing ok-letting it out is good therapy.

I am holding mind back for now..


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wow K I was about to wish you a merry christmas for tomorrow...but thats right its Christmas over there for you now!!!

Keep your head up K, you got through the holidays!!!

Merry Christmas to you and your children...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hmmm Christmas day - 
when my H dropped the kids off he apologised for messing up the 'christmas breakfast'. He stood outside my house just saying how annoyed he was with himself for not getting it right....later he texted me to say sorry again...what does he fr***ing well expect? That we are going to get together on these occasions and it is all going to be easy and fine without any effort or thought from him? 

I told him that all the issues around communication that I had with him in the relationship are still there - namely that he doesn't communicate with me - somehow I don't think separation is going to help us there! 

But guys the point isn't that he f***ed up Christmas day for me and the boys, the point is that he left and broke up our family and it is never going to be 'easy' to get together again - this is what I deserve an apology for - 

after that I went to my sisters' house - it was ok.
kids and I swam (yes it was hot and blue sky FA)


Honestly folk boxing day was horrible - the boys and I struggled with eachother all day - 
we went to see a movie - old dogs - it wasn't bad for kids....
but after that we just all felt bereft...normally we watch the cricket and drink and hang out with family......

I was consumed with anger and all sorts of other bad and frustrating feelings - I am going to try a lot harder for the kids today - they deserve so much more on the holidays....

just lately I have been waking up with my heart racing again - pure panic - I haven't had this for months - why is it that when you feel that you are moving forward you can be dragged back...body, heart and soul....

peace is what I long for


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K:

Do your run? I thought, if you are a runner or like to run that would be perfect for you. Get in the zone and get some of that frustration and anger out. 

It's so darn easy to focus on our losses. In fact, it's nearly impossible to ignore them. Have you/we gained anything by this? I am wondering if we can answer this question honestly.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW thanks for getting me thinking. I do like running and yesterday I ended up just lifting weights for a while and yes (this is for FA - doing some push-ups!) Swimming is really my thing but the pool is closed for 3 weeks...maybe the panic and anger is arising because my exercise routine is all out of sync....

I have been thinking about your other question for a while and thank you so much for asking it - you always get me thinking.

I am sure that there have been positives for me - 
1. compassion for others in pain
2. a general wake up call - I am healthier, fitter, more aware of my mortality, more aware that life has a beginning, a middle and an end, more aware that everything is delicate? 
3. ability to do what I call "look people in the eye' and just connect. I am very present in the world at the moment. sadly not with everyone - I am present with my students and very unpresent with some members of my family - don't know what that is about.
4. have completely rethought work - my brain is working very well - lots of ideas - lots of energy - completley new approach.
5. have reached out and met new friends (including those who have met via this forum) 
6. have learnt a whole lot about what the human heart goes through - what it can endure, how it endures stuff,
7. have learnt once again that although we are all different we are also all pretty much the same...
that's about it for now - 
that's a whole lot of stuff for 12 months I guess.....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wow K! You came up with alot of positives. It's a wonderful list for sure. I would not have thought some of what you wrote but much of it fits me.

I also think of how I took my life for granted and how I appreciate people so much more. Not just my family but friends that have cared for me during this time.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Cw I think about that one - taking life for granted - taking peace and happiness for granted - it hurts that one doesn't it? That feeling of where did it go? Why was I unable to hold onto it? I have been thinking a bit more about happiness I know that some of us have been posting about that on another thread and I no w I see happiness as a 'gift' - not as something to chase - something that arises...just "is"....I know this is a bit different from saying it is 'inside' us - I think we need to have the capacity to experience it - but we can't necessarily engineer it...sorry I am getting deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep today...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: You are making my brain hurt!

I believe you are right..it's within us but our perception gets in the way many times. We all have that capacity-somewhere.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I've thought about you a lot over the holidays, K. And I am so proud of you for thinking of so many positives. You are an amazing spirit. <3


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow wren that's a lovely thing to say...thank you


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, those are great postives. I think you are right about happiness being within but sometimes we just block it. I haven't started reading this book yet, but my brother suggested it to me. The book is Saddhartha by Herman Hesse. Written in the fifties I believe. It is about his journey finding himself within -- what he went through etc. The journey we should all take. Like I said I haven't read it, but my brother highly recommends it -- I guess he felt I needed it he gave it to me for X-mas.

Kudos on the push ups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Drop and give me --- 20, no I'll settle for 5. Keep it up.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey guys - happy new year and all that - stay posting in 2010...


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## lost1234 (Aug 24, 2009)

Same to you K...please do the same!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Happy New Year K! 2010 will be better! Much love!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Happy New Years K!

By the way I sent you a letter about 5 days ago!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow CW - something to look forward to ! 
thanks 
K


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I have been waking up very early again - very stressed
none of the financial aspects of the separation have been sorted
my husband believes that he is acting honourably in this department - but he is not because he won't actually face up to the figures...

Even though he went to our accountant and agreed to a support payment he has no understanding of what this payment is for -

I was shocked to learn recently that he thinks the payment he is making allows him a 50% stake in the property when in reality it is close to 10%.


He is not 'good' with money in a number of ways and also seems very resentful of me over money - which is ironic as my common sense with money and financial help from my folks is the only thing that has kept the mortgage paid over the last year while this has been going on -

Some people say to sort this out legally - but truth is once i start paying legal fees I have no money for the mortgage - and as my H is a professional avoider and procrastinator I am convinced that beginning the legal process would not speed things up and would probably lead me directly to having to sell my house sooner rather than later....

I know that this is not the end of the world 

What are my options for helping him to understand the reality of the situation?

I have been holding out hoping he will 'get it' and do the right thing by us financially - 

I have fits of intense anger about this - it is horrible anger - and stress so I know that I have to sort it for my mental health as well as just for practical reasons -

I have tried so hard to reason with him - but it seems as though his resentment gets in the way everytime -

any advice guys?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Do you have mediation services in your area? Here, it's a cheaper alternative to legal fees. And often, it's less "ugly."


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: He won't "get it." Assume this and don't bother with explaining. He's a adult man and it he gets screwed then it's his problem.

You worry about you. Have a plan...if you have to sell the house then figure out what you can afford and where you can live (look at ads, etc). Have a plan B...written on paper. Have a budget on paper. Keep it handy.

Financial is so important to you well being...knowning how you are going to make it! 

You have an idea of what kind of support that he will need to pay by the courts? If so, then make your budget with that and go from there. Get an extra job or you'll need to downsize....Just having it on paper will make it feel more organized in your mind.

I guess there are no easy answers. Don't depend on your H do a thing.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, listen to CW. She knows of what she says. Get your plan together. Look around for places to live just in case. I know things are different there in Australia then here in the US, but be prepared. Assume it will take time to sell if that is what you have to do, and have somewhere lined up. J is an idiot. Again, J is an idiot and self centered right now. You have to take care of you mate. I'm here for ya. Always.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

K, I totally understand your frustrations. I am currently about to pull out my hair due to my ex's utter stupidity. I actually had to tell him to contact his lawyer to get our divorce decree started. He thought the court system would draw up those papers. In fact, I don't think he really even knows what a divorce decree is! 

There have been a few things that I have really had to push to get accomplished. Things that should have been handled solely by my ex. If you H is like mine, you have to keep in mind that you are dealing with a child-like NG who is used to having things done for him. It may take some constant reminding/pushing to get things done.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Taking care of business on your own behalf is priority at this point....

It's learning not to depend on them.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks guys - i hear you loud and clear - 
independence is the key
not relying on him 
I get it now


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Although it has been over year since my H left I am going through a rough patch once again.
It was around this time last year that my H started coming back to me - before he left again in June.

I keep on thinking that he will come back again - I know he is not.

I haven't been posting because I can't actually find a way to explain exactly what is going on with me at the moment -

I am deeply confused 

both about who he is 
and who I am 


I feel that I need to go back through all my posts and try and make some sense of things 

sorry if you are reading this 
it is as vague as hell 

I feel as though I have lost my anchor again -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

We're here for the rough patches, too K.
I understand how confusing the letting go can be.
Talk to us. <3


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks wren
I know you guys are there for me - or here and I appreciate that heaps

something isn't right with me 

my h sent me an email the other day saying he "felt the need" to say that our relationship hadn't been terrible and that we had much love, joy and happiness -
and that he missed our friendship and sharing the boys..

he also noted that he didn't want to reconcile (just to make that clear!)

and that he was sorry for all the hurt he had caused...

now I am not sure how 'genuine' the message was - 
part of me thinks that he wrote it so that he appears more rational and considered in his decision making 

NG stuff - 

he offers this stuff occassionally by way of 'explanations' however it is in fact the opposite of an explanation - 

I read that and think - so why are you leaving? 

but I am thinking about writing him a repsonse which speaks about atonement -

on the one hand I am thinking this is practical - 

I could list some of the on-going issues that we have (finances, the boys etc.) and let him know how I think he could improve the situation and perhaps if at present he is feeling remorseful he may act on them -

and part of me then thinks he is still being ingenuine
there is nothing in that email I didn't already know 
and that the 'reason' he has left is because he wants to be free to pursue his feelings for OW. 

I may be wrong about this - however my counsellor says there is no other explanation for his behaviour that holds any water.

my gut also tells me this. I think.

he is just trying to hook me into to NG stuff - 
(i think)

dazed ? are you out there is this NG stuff? 
what do the rest of you guys think....

but anyway I am off track - 

sorry this post is going to have two parts -

so what I am busy wondering is this -
is a letter which mentions atonement me just asking him to step up again?
giving him yet another NG opportunity?
or is it a practical step at this point?

I need to get the best out of him because we are parenting our kids closely for at the very least next 10-12 years -

is he throwing me a line to smooth the waters or is he just feeling guilty that he told me he hasn't loved me for 10 years and that I have repeated this to his sisters ?

sorry if this is just a mess to read.

thanks if you have read it!

I am adding this 
as I walked away after writing this I felt as though perhaps it is about forgiveness -
although I still have anger I want to forgive him so that I can move on 

I know this may sound like a weird question but what does forgiveness feel like?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

For me...forgiveness means peace. Where you come to a point where you don't question him as much regarding his acts. Where the anger isn't at the forefront.

It doesn't mean that you forgot. It doesn't mean that you never have anger or nonpeaceful days. It's just an overall peaceful feelings with moments of "other" feelings.

This is my perspective. 

I'd quit worrying about him or his messages. Trying to decipher him, at this point, is trying to decipher some ancient writing. You may have more than one meaning. Then, you are no better off than when you started.

It's difficult to not focus on him. Eventually, it will tone down. 

Quit looking for those answers. Eventually, you will have them....it may take a awhile. It may be your own answers and not his.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

hmmm thoughtful reply CW - thanks very valuable


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Sounds like his email is an attempt to make himself feel better (instead of trying to make *you* feel better). And yes, it does sound like some type of NG attempt to keep his emotional hose attached to you.

Personally, I'd ignore the whole thing and wouldn't give him the benefit of a reply.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Excellent advice dazed I have not replied thus far and will remember your words - 
I knew that you's have the NG perspective!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW - the kids 
that's where I get stuck with forgiveness 
am angry and bitter about that 
the other stuff the 'love' stuff is just **** and the money stuff I don't in my heart care about - but not sharing the kids anymore and not being able to be there for my kids each day -
how do I forgive this???
I know it is not for you to answer ...
just thinking outloud


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I know it's hard K, to forgive, in regards to the kids being left behind. I think it will be the kids responsibility to forgive your H or not. Eventually, they will have to figure out if this is the dad that they want a relationship with...

Your job is to not focus on your husband and what you CANNOT control. What if your kids forgive your H and you do not? You end up being the bitter and resentful mother. You want to be the mom that the kids can look up to and depend upon. You want to be the mom that they can come to no-matter-what. They will see you as the strong one. I know you are already this way, in their eyes. 

What your H has done is a load of [email protected] in my eyes. However, he's taking energy from you at this time. Energy that could be focused elsehwhere in a more productive venue.

I know your talents K...you have many of them. I also know of your loving nature. Focusing on your H, takes it away bit by bit.

Take care to not listen to him, when he contacts unless it's about the kids. Cut him off, say you can't talk, or you don't want anymore "explanations." 

It's difficult. 

The money matter makes you feel less, in control, not knowning how things will work out. I don't know how Australia works. I know you've been to a mediator and all. I guess you have a few choice in the money matters-find cheaper (i know not easy) and make more money (additional support or more work). 

You and the boys will be the ones to sacrifice. I hate this for you...K.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks CW
I know what you say is so
the kids have already forgiven him - they love him and he loves them -

and I know I have to stop focussing on him

you are correct if I do this I am pulled away from what I need to do to look after myself and my kids and move on 

I am very obsessed at the moment again - it is like he is in my head - he is in my dreams and there nearly every waking moment 

why right now I don't know 

the kids can recognise that I am trying hard to rebuild things for them - 

you're right the money thing is just adding to my stress levels right now

I may have to let go of the house....
if I can't provide this for the boys myself I just have to face it head on - relying on him for support in this area is dumb. 

I wasn't repsonsible for this -
thanks for reading and responding


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Another thing..K. Don't be too hard on yourself and the fact that you aren't "over him." You will gradually do this in your own time. 

You are a good, intelligent, caring woman. 

It's all hard..K.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks CW
just a sad and difficult time in life
for many of us here
and you are spot on again
I am very self-critical about the fact I am not 'over' him 
I am so slow in life for some things '
I know I don't want to be angry or bitter or resentful or in love with someone who doesn't want me forever...
I know that I want to be the best separated parent that I can be 
and I know that he will always be a special person to me 
I just have to keep on telling myself that I wasn't responsible for this happening and that there was nothing I could have done...
I tend to fall into blaming myself -
once again thanks for responding 
means a lot to me
K


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I got a new lawyer today.
she was really smart and I feel happy that I have her on board.
It is interesting working with people (strangers) on the details of your life. 
But the smart ones they have seen it all 
she pointed out to me that both my H and his love interest are being quite decent about the whole thing...interesting perspective - guess she sees much worse!
she was so astute though 
she said 
this girl doesn't know what she is getting herself into does she?
she then went on to say that she (ow) was only seeing the version of the man made 'whole' through 14years of love and attention from me....
I have been thinking about this ever since...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Remember K, the ow is only seeing one version of your H. Remember when you first met, you saw one version of him too. Over time other characteristices come out, good, bad and indifferent to you. That is what the ow doesn't see.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

yeah -
she seeing the lovely image - 
and in my H's case it is a pretty nice one to women.
my friend yoko always says that he 'presents very well'....

but that's ok

it's not to do with me 
the only relationship that matters is the one that I have with him 
and I don't mean that in a romantic way 
I mean that in a real way

we still have a relationship over the kids 
and that is the one I need to manage at the moment 

I think things are still too raw for me and him to have a decent one 

but I think one day we will

he is allowed his own life - his own choices - his own freedoms 

not much to do with me anymore 

I don't wish him any unhappiness or pain - I hope he gets what he wants....and that this does make him happy - maybe it does - maybe he is happy already

I am less clear about what I want FA
and this is partly because I have enjoyed the 'drift' of life in the past - delighted by unforseen opportunities - not too concerned about other stuff

but from here I have realised I have to take a little more control of things for now - until I can get myself to a place where I am able to make the most of those unforseen opportunities....

none of us can see what life is going to bring us and who we will be at the end of it...


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## SoxMunkey (Jan 1, 2010)

knortoh... you sound really at peace with yourself and that you have come to terms with the way things are. I am not talking about just laying down and surrendering, but I mean in a way to where you have finally had the chance to exhale.

Your words and demeanor are really comforting.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, my therapist used the tides to help me visualize the letting go process. The water, during high tide, continues going out, but each time it lessens until the tide comes in fully. we are going to have moments when our wave reaches out to the ocean but as time goes by, our wave will reach the sand fully.
Does that make any sense? lol

<3


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ds thank you 
I do have times of peace and 'enlightenment' I have had throughout - in fact right at the beginning of my journey (before all the hurt and pain set in) I was quite clear about this stuff...

but there is a whole lot of human emotion to work through no matter how 'philosophically' we can think about it 

I find I can have 'intellectual' clarity and yet not much spiritual peace - then - every now and then both are my gift - 

the spiritual stuff that's the important bit -
that's the love stuff - the 'real' love stuff -

I know that is where I want to be - I know that is who I want to be - I also know that I have a way to go ...

Wren 
that is a beautiful analogy 
and very helpful to me as well 
thank you


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You will survive and thrive, K! And never worry too much about your emotions. The scabs get bumped off sometimes. But eventually, it will heal over. 

Listen to KT Tunstall's Heal Over. 
YouTube - KT Tunstall - Heal Over


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I love the fact that you are carefree spririt but realize the time for you take control. 

It's a great thing to be carefree in your nature. I wish I were more. I am more controlish...

You sounded so peaceful in the last post.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

K, I admire you over the fact you are able to say that you hope your ex finds happiness. 

I am not to this point yet. I still want him to be lonely, miserable and depressed. 

How do you get to that point? When do you put aside your bitterness and anger?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

mls 
there is some residual bitterness and anger that's for sure 
it builds up and I have a few sessions (at the gym) whatever -
crying etc 
and then it passes 

I find being angry requires energy....

no matter what he says or does I have loved him deeply - we have shared all the big stuff in life and lots of the small stuff 

whether he says now he was acting or he was always unhappy???
who cares - 

we had more happy times together and we shared more kindness together....than many other couples - 

ultimatley not even he can undo this -

I don't get it 
and I won't get it
why this isn't 'enough' for him - but it is not

so I just have to let go it 

but if I succumb to bitterness and anger I feel as though I am letting all of his negativity win 

everyone who knows me knows I am very optimistic soul - 
I thrive on light and energy....

it's like the bad stuff doesn't belong with me anymore 

also I remember reading once that wishing someone ill is like drinking a poison chalice....

having said that I don't spend a whole lot fo time vidualising what my h's happiness may look like - that would HURT bigtime


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I like this thinking K. 

I agree that I spent a lot of happy times together with my ex. In fact, there are several times that I talk to a friend or coworker about something that my ex and I did together. When I talk about it, I am not bitter. Those were happier times and I enjoyed those times. He can't take that happiness away. No matter what happens, we shared a lot of firsts together. He can't deny that.

You are right, anger lets him win and takes energy. I'll try to stop thinking about how happy my ex seems to be now. But that's hard to do when he posts pictures online of his new, younger woman.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I've always been a advocate against holding anger to close. It takes a great deal of energy.

I have always been one to let it out and move on. It's refreshing to read your words..comforting.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sadly I have fallen off the peace train today.
I have been trying to negotiate at work for a higher workload - 
although my immediate supervisor supports me 
there has been no support except of the most tokenistic from upper management - 
Iwas in these battles way before J left me 
but today I just felt worn out by it all -
I know it is a political decision and not a personal one (not to give me fulltime work) but I can't help feel under appreciated. 

I am going to begin looking into new avenues of income. New careers. 

Who knows?

Other than that mls I was thinking something.

I am not all that noble as regards my exH.

Although I don't wish him unhappiness I do often think how I might feel if/when he remarries and has another family. Or indeed even when he the OW come 'out'. I am predicting that one soon. Not sure I'll be filled with warm feelings then.

I think it is entirely reasonable for your key emotion right now be anger. You were betrayed.

But we must keep supporting one another to remember it is not about us - and it is not about is not being 'good enough' - it is their shortcoming not ours. 

The fact is I think my ex will struggle to settle into a new life because it will come with so many complications and difficulties.

He is not good with these. And I also don't believe he has hit the emotional honesty button right on yet. So I am slow to believe or even care whether he says he is happy or not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while I don't wish him unhappiness I find comfort in the fact that I believe 'happiness' is not his for the asking right now...I think he has a long way and very proabably some rough times before he gets there and maybe he never will. Does this make sense? 

As for your mr juvenile well what can you say? 
A snapshot on facebook is just that - a snapshot - an instant.
It doesn't compare to what you and he have shared.

Ignore it - take your own happy snaps !


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

K I love your words. I wish I could just shrink you, put you in my pocket and everytime the anger emotion washes over me I would pull you out and listen to what you have to say.

Hey, and you have every right to fall off the peace train too!! While it is wonderful that you and your H had so many good memories I am sure its hard to bc your left with wondering why at times, and I think thats ok, thats normal. But keep doing what you are doing, don't let the anger overtake you.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash, 
you inspire me as well. 
K


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Sometimes as we've heard "when a door shuts another opens." 

Allow your head and heart to be open to possibilities. Even if you don't think a different career is what you want...pursue anything that may have interest. You never know. 

I landed my job in Nov. It wasn't what I wanted but nevertheless intereviewed. I was brutally honest and thought I wouldn't get it.
I did. That shocked me and I thought, well maybe I shouldn't accept and wait. Then, I thought maybe God has put this in my lap for a reason. He did.

I knew immediately once I started. It won't be the job that I will have for the rest of my life. However, it's not stressful overall. It's with a group of girls in their late 20's that keep me entertained and laughing all of the time. I am able to accumulate hours for my license (takes 3000). And...did I say it's not stressful.

If I would have taken a job in my career path, it would have be stressful and demanding. I didn't need something like that....

Maybe, K...pursue a bunch of different jobs. See what pops up. Interview even if you aren't attracted to it. It's kind of exciting. 

As far as the peace train. You'll catch another ride...later.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

K, you always have great wisdom. Yes, I need to move on and make my own happy pictures. I am trying. No more looking at his Facebook page.

Anger seems to be taking over me at this moment. You are right, I was betrayed. I even feel embarrassed. No doubt many of our friends have now seen the pictures online. It feels like a slap in the face. And it also feels like our 7 year relationship meant nothing to him. 

CW has some valid points in regards to your career. This may be the best time for you to pursue other opportunities. You never know what lies ahead.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Guys thanks for your support.
I had meeting with upper management today - I didn't get what I wanted but boy was I proud of how I handled myself -
I have learnt to appreciate my honesty...
no emotion, no fear, no defensiveness, I just spoke plainly and asked them to help me -

they said they would in corporate double speak...
which really meant no -

but I will work it out 

I am going to start looking for new work - it will be fun - 
realistically I don't think I'll jump ship _ I love my work 
but you are so right 
you just never know 
and it always feels great to have options...

I met up with a younger gf who is also going through divorce tonight
She and I have decided to start a social diary -
rock climbing' squad swimming, biking clubs, and work our way through all the different types of dances....( I am very unco)
I am keen to see her meet someone and the idea of doing this stuff just makes me laugh sooooo much 
it is like this cliched idea of what you do when you are 'single'...

I knew I would eventually find a way of being cool with being single - and now I have 
treat it like a game!

we are getting together next week to develop our program -

looking forward to sharing with you all.....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I can't wait to read about all your adventures, K!
When I feel overwhelmed over loss of control, I remember the flip side is having options and choices.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yep. I guess I've been doing that also..K. Playing it like a game, you don't know if you will win but at least you are trying and having some fun!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

We'll have fun just playing.

I had my first meeting with My FIL since this has happened 
he lives a long way away
I know it will get easier to see him
we love eachother...
I told him that I didn't think J was going to be happy but that I know that he thinks he is doing the right thing.

It is hard I think he thinks that things must have been bad in the relationship....

He looks shocked if I mention the idea of J being with someone else...as though this could never happen 

Funny isn't it what people think?

He also said that he really hoped he didn't re-marry or have kids again.

They have no idea.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok 
seeing FIL knocked the wind out of my sails.

memories of happier times - 

FIL has always been a special person to me.

How do I move forward and have a productive loving relationship with him? 

I never thought I'd be an ex-daughter in law.

I think not talking about J must be number one on the list.

Thank goodness I have this forum.

I have been reading through everyone's posts and getting my daily dose of hard won wisdom.

I have so much work to do on myself ....

we all have our own battles no matter what is going on in life.'

I miss the days of not thinking about EVERYTHING.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I miss the days of not thinking about EVERYTHING.


Follow this link below and start reading at page 33.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I still love my in-laws. I don't call them my ex-in laws either. They aren't...I didn't divorce them. My H divorced me.

You are right....that's the first step to not talk about J anymore to him.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks D8zed!
ironically for me my H spent the year before he left me reading this book - 
when he left he said to me 
"why did you think I was reading all those self-help books?"....


but I will give it a go - I am up for anything these days! 
I guess it is working for you ?
another friend of mine on the forum - outinthecold always reminds me to be present - notice what is going on around me -

you know I have always been a drifter - 
not too concerned with the past or the future 
or at least not much under the allusion that I have a whole lot of control over stuff....

I struggle with this sort of thing because I find it vague....

I'd really like to hear how you apply this and how you find it helps you ....

hey - that whole bit about the pain body makes SO much sense -
it is as though I am ok and I see something anything and it reminds me that I am inpain -

I have noticed this this morning - how can everything hurt me...?

...............thank you for posting this


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh said:


> Thanks D8zed!
> ironically for me my H spent the year before he left me reading this book -
> when he left he said to me
> "why did you think I was reading all those self-help books?"....


What did your H mean by that statement?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ha ha 
who knows?
he thought that I was supposed to guess that because he was reading self-help books he was struggling in the marriage.

when he now says to me that he has 'tried harder than you (meaning me) will ever know...I think he is referring to all the self -help stuff.

it's a bit of a nonsense for me 

if you are struggling with your wife perhaps telling her would be a good start....

but I am sure that he feels that he sincerely tried (to change himself and be happy) before blaming the relationship.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Isn't the a NG behavior! "YOU see I was trying all along." 

Duh! Perhaps you should open your pie-hole and mention to your WIFE your unhappiness instead. 

My ex told me the same thing..."I've been trying for years." Wow. That was a long time to never TALK about it.

Ok. I am being sarcastic and mean-spirited. These are grown men with children and long term relationships. Grrr.


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## lost1234 (Aug 24, 2009)

OMG!!!

K and CW...yet AGAIN our men have stated the same crap!

pisses me off!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

they are a predictable bunch aren't they?


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Predictable yes? At times *******s yes!!

I feel for you K, if you do start reading some books let me know what you feel is a good read, I have yet to read any. I've been focusing on reading books on single parenting. Wow. Some of them are kinda depressing!

Keep working on you, I know you are. Good advice to stay grounded in the present, but don't let that stop you from looking forward to what is to come.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks Ash 
I am still very up and down. I am letting myself be drawn to the positive in life - and I have real moments of joy and clarity -
but I struggle still with terrible stress and panic 
particularly at work....
very very draining.
I still don't know what I am looking forward to ...
can't see it yet...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K,

We all struggle in our own ways. You are doing great. Just remember you've got blue skies in your future.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

And very blue skies here today -


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I still don't know what I am looking forward to ...
> can't see it yet...


I know the feeling K. Like I said on my post, being single and lonely is definitely better than what I am going through now. However, every night I pray to God to guide me in the right direction. It is truly in his hands now. 

It's exciting, yet very, very scary not knowing anything about your future.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, are the skies still blue? They are grey here today and the last couple of days. You can and will handle this.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

MLS: I have and do the same. I pray for guidance from God. He has yet to let me down. I am presented with opportunities that appear to be not what I WANT but I take them anyway. 

Each time, this has happened, I show my faith in his judgement. Many times, I have thought about the song "Jesus take the Wheel" it's a perfect song for me.

The former mother/wife that loved to take control and be in control. It's a humbling experience my life has been this last 1.5years...the jokes on me!

I only see the real reason for these unwanted opportunities...after I take them. Then, it's the aha moment.

K: It's probably best to continue to focus on the here and now. That is your priority. However, looking at the big picture and creating happiness in your life. This is something I know you can do with your creative side. Sometimes going through the motions is all you can do.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I am so sad at the moment.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I still have those moments, k. It's normal.
talk to us.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh K, I care about you!! I hate hearing that your sad but know that it is bound to happen and will happen again. Give yourself a time limit each day or week (whatever you need) and let yourself feel sad for that amount of time. When the time is up...let it go.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That's a great idea ASh. Timing yourself...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Things have been tough for me for two reasons
the first is that it was around thsi time last year that J started coming back...lots of memories and confusion there - 
and 2nd his dad has been down visiting and I have had to adjust to having him as an ex-FIL,

just hearing his dad talk about him tenderly and warmly and funnily as we always have together hurt badly -

then on friday ray kicked the front door in (it is glass) and cut his leg and had to have stitches...
it just hurt not to have J there to share this -
and I know he would have been hurting not being here...

then when I get sad I am ashamed to say I indulge in some 
punishing thoughts :
I start thinking /understanding believing everything that he has said ....and then I imagine him living happily ever after with OW 
and then I imagine his family all getting together and saying how happy he is now and what a terrific girl she is etc....

I know I invent those thoughts and they are about him and not me and I know it is an evil thing to do myself...

but sometimes I just think that is really the way it is..and will be and he wouldn't be doing this to me if it weren't for the sake of true love....and as I have always believed in love as a guiding principle in life - I feel he is entitled to follow this and enjoy it...

this is then connected to re-asking myself what I did wrong...how I could have taken better care of my realtionship -

I was blindsided but I should have seen something...
I wasn't careful enough - I didn't ask the right questions - 
I don't know guys....I must have played a part in this somewhere -

I think there is another side to these thoughts as well - ones that are actually about forgiving him - but that is on the edge of my consciousness and I can't explain them.

I am digging myself out through concentrating on my work and trying to develop something new there - but this hasn't been going to plan either - and when several things in your life stack up against you - I guess you start to suspect it may be you - I don't know 

I know rationally the work thing especially is not me - it's a stategy issue - 
but I need to be tough and creative and work out how to make what is not working work for me 

I have an idea - not very well crystalised about how to do this - but at this stage i don't know whether it is a pipe dream or not. 

I am lucky I have a lovely brother who came over and talked me last night about my 'idea'...

and I woke up feeling better....
more peaceful


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I can tell you would be a great "idea" person. Such a creative and warm person. I bet you can make this idea happen-so smart.

I can't tell you how many times that I have questioned myself. Recently, I told a friend "he must have really disliked me to leave as he did?" She was shaking her head "no" and said "you have to give that up...it wasn't about you." 

I think that's the hardest concept. To figure that it's not about you but it is being done TO YOU. And they say it's you....or at least my insinuated that it was me and the relationship and how he FELT about me. 

Frankly, anymore I don't want to see my family or his family anymore. I love them all but either they are asking "how are you?" or they are thinking they need to check in on me. It's annoying as all. 

I wish I could wake up next year and forget the hard part of transitioning into my new life. 

What fun.


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## SoxMunkey (Jan 1, 2010)

Sometimes the answer to the question is that there really isn't an answer. You cannot beat yourself up day in and day out wondering how, why, and when. For whatever reason they have chosen to take the steps that they have taken... they have moved out and on. No one can ever say that the pain isn't deep, but we have to learn to heal and go on. I know, I know... easier said than done. But it is something that we have to do whether we want to or not.

knortoh... do you have any hobbies or get out of the house and just do a few things that you actually enjoy? Maybe taking that time and doing something else will help you to not think so dee and hard about "what-if's" and reflect so much on what's past.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm ashamed to admit I've had those exact same thoughts K. Nearly daily I ask myself what I did wrong, why he didn't love me anymore, how I let things get to this point. And yes, I've envisioned my ex and the OW living happily ever after. I even imagine his friends and family telling him how great they are as a couple and how they never quite understood how we got together. 

I agree that we only punish ourselves by having these thoughts. I just wanted you to know that you're not alone. I too am trying to figure out how to ignore these thoughts and feelings.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I told my friend H...who is also having marriage problems.....

"We are focusing entirely too much on them." It's true. 

The agnst and anger and analyzing and "what ifs" are time consuming. I go back, in my mind, "it's him and his loss." Very simple and true.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

it is comforting as anything to know that you guys have some of the same thoughts - thank you for sharing.

it is their loss CW I so agree -

and DS thank you for your words as well 

I am slowly starting to begin a new life or a new stage in life -

You know guys the thing that gets me is that I have had moments. times even when I have peace - when I can see who I want to be in the future - not a clear picture but the important stuff and what seems important to me at the moment is being ok with what has happened -

and you are correct ds we have to accept and move on - no choice there - 

working through so that am the person that I want to be for myself and my kids....

just peaceful - accepting - calm that is what I long for - it's this mad pounding in my heart that is driving me crazy right now -


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I am going through some changes - 
Trying to stand up to his lies. 
He still lies to me even though leaving was 'being true to himself' - even though he has no reason to anymore -
as always he can't be direct.
How do I manage this?
Do I keep on challenging him - incur anger and bad behaviour?
Part of me wants him to know that I know the truth even if he can lie to himself...
Another part just thinks it is crazy counterproductive - I need to handle him as well as I can to get the best outcomes for the boys and myself...I don't feel like fighting - 

Who cares if he is lying to himself?

Engaging is just putting energy where I no longer want to ....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I am going through some changes -
> Trying to stand up to his lies.
> He still lies to me even though leaving was 'being true to himself' - even though he has no reason to anymore -
> as always he can't be direct.
> ...


I empathize. I was dealing with the same issue. I detached. I decided that it was no longer worth it for me to call J on his crap. He knows what he's doing. Why invest? Part of detaching means letting go of trying to help him see the light.

Do what is best for you K, and your kids. Eventually, your H will see the light.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You are realizing this K....engaging is caring too much at this point.

Why not realize that he's flawed or f**ed up. You have no reason to care and frankly that caring is taking up too much time.

Set your boundaries and "think about" what you want when he wants something. Let him know later (as we discussed prior).

Then, don't seek answers from him. He doesn't have what you want.

Finally, be kind to yourself and allow yourself setbacks. But fully focusing on him isn't letting you to move forward.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't let him rent real estate in your brain. He's not worth it. 

Feel sorry for him, leave it at that, and move on.

You have better things ahead of you.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks guys,
Corpus, Wren, Tunera I know what you are saying.
and I get the not letting him take up space or trying to call him on things - it's not my job to do that anymore.

However the day to day nuts and bolts of shared parenting means that we have to both be willing to negotiate regardless of why someone wants something. 

at present I am in this situation.

He wants to change the arrangements with the kids.
I have said no.
He has come back with BS arguments. 
(I know the real reason) 

But we are effectively at an impasse - 

I suggested that we get together and discuss. He said ok - but I have not organized when ...

now I know there is no real benefit to meeting - unless it forces him to back down quickly - which can happen with him. 

I don't want to meet with someone who isn't bringing anything genuine to the table -

so do I manage the situation by just standing firm and saying once again I have thought about this and I am clear about what I think is best?

do I just keep on giving him this message?

I don't think he'll back down on this...and we all know two people who won't shift aren't any good to anyone....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Find a mediator; it would be worth the money, IMO.


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

Corpuswife said:


> You are realizing this K....engaging is caring too much at this point.
> 
> Why not realize that he's flawed or f**ed up. You have no reason to care and frankly that caring is taking up too much time.
> 
> ...


Nicely put CW. I need to remember this also. I need to also redirect my focus and rememeber that my W no longer has what I want or need. I think when you are a "leaver" like our spouses are, they should not get the attention they "want" but the attention that they have earned through their bad and unacceptable behavior. And beside what is needed for the children, that's very little attention at all for them.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Let him arrange a date to meet or arrange for a mediator. He wants the change, let him bring it up to you again.

Of course, it's important to be flexible on things to avoid the pulling of the children. However, if it's wrong for them you need to set your boundaries. Let HIM figure something else out.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

When I picked the boys up the other day Ray started telling me how things went badly at his Dad's house. 
When he tells his dad that he is missing me and he wants to see me/speak to me John is not sympathetic - and says that it would only make 'me' sad to know this -
they end up fighting about this and Ray gets sent to his room -
I know that kids can misrepresent things but Vince confirmed the story...
they both told me that they feel that John isn't honest with them - and Vince says that this is why he can't talk to his dad about stuff...
because he doesn't want to if John isn't being straight with him...
I am slightly taken aback at how smart they are and how clearly they see things
my psychologist told me this would happen - but I am reeling from what they have said....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What your children tell you has nothing to do with what you should do as an adult. 

What are YOU doing to (1) fix your marriage or (2) move on and provide your sons with a healthy home life?


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## lost1234 (Aug 24, 2009)

K,
i have just caught up on what you have been going through! boy do i feel alot of the same!
with small kids it makes it all a bit harder imo, just because we as mothers try to keep in mind what is best for them...
then we have the h who has suddenly gone back in time and is acting and behaving worse than the real children!
take a deep breath!

from what i have just read, you are doing ok, not cartwheels by any means but ok...

its a tough situation and it takes all the patience in the universe!

i decided that when the holidays were finally over, i was going to distance myself...we all know how hard this was for me because of the girls...

wow does it help matters...i cant say i am not engaged at all...but nothing like before. ya know what? it seems as i have actually been getting much more respect from him...he has been around alot with the surgery and all...then gone again. yeah, it hurts cause i like having his normal self around, but it is easier now to see him go...

i focus on me and the girls...i dont leave him uninvited, but i do what i want to do wether he wants to join us or not...

i now have a knack for quickly getting off of the phone if i hear that tone in his voice...

i walk away when i notice the mood swings starting ...with the girls

do i want my marriage to work out after all of this? by all means!

i just dont want to be part of his fall...i dont want for the girls and myself to be pulled down with him! he needs to do this for himself before he will truly be what he fully needs to be for our family again!

our sitches have alot of similarities, so please dont take offense to anything i have just written...i sooooo understand what you are going through...

you guys have heard me and helped me all of these months to become strong enough to finally say things like this...and to see them for what the are!

its sad, it hurts, i still cry a lot, i want to be able to help him, and **** do i want him to come home...BUT not like he is today...i want MY HUSBAND back...not this sorry excuse that looks like him!

love and hugs! i am thinking about you and your boys K!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

lost thanks so much for your very kind wishes...of course I don't take offense - 
I am doing ok as you say 
I don't want to be in this place forever so I will move on - 
things just haven't settled for me yet
once the paperwork is done and things have calmed down again maybe I'll have some peace.
I am still in love with him and that is what is holding me back for now I think - 
I'll detach and accept eventually and I'll be ok -


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## lost1234 (Aug 24, 2009)

K,

I know how hard it is! I will keep you and the boys in my thought and prayers...

keep us posted! even if it is venting! get it all out, youll get some relief only if its lasts a few hours...its worth it!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree with lost, keep venting and posting.
I feel for you, K.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

hi everyone 
a quick update - life has been busy - 
I am ????
really introspective at the moment, a little tired....
life goes on - 
perhaps I am moving forward but I can't articulate it if I am 
maybe I am standing still -
I am having a productive life - am loving my boys and appreciating my family and friends....all this is true ....
all this is positive....
I love hearing where you guys are at - 
and I am glad that all the gang are still posting....
Wren let us know what you are doing soon.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

K, we've missed you. How is the non-profit going? So glad to hear from you.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Busy Busy! I know what you mean K!

I do miss your posts and emails. However, I have no doubt that you will continue on a positive path!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Miss you K! You stay in my thoughts, my friend.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi everyone,
still not much to report....I don't know why but I find posting about my life really tricky at the moment. I do think things are going better though and I am so grateful for all the wonderful things in my life.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Hi K, no news shall be taken as not bad news ...

Hope you continue the march towards a semblance of clarity and stability. It's always a kicker when you think you have it, and then you don't. It's like trying to hold onto a fish.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I take the no news as good news K!

It's like I don't have as many details to post as I am moving on. Although my dating tales are quite entertaining to TAM....I feel at a loss for words now.


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## lonelysoulneedinganswers (Feb 25, 2010)

hmmm
Now that was a long thread to read but one of the most helpful. I am going thru the exact situation and am 'going mad' myself. I find comfort in your words here in knowing that it is something you can get past.
My H and I just separated after me having a toxic reaction to wellbutrin  I spent too much time into fixing me like I was the problem and not noticing what the real issues were.
I am now fearful for my kids. MY H now has a temper or anger problem that can blow out of nowhere right now. I know that 2 young girls can be a handful and I am afraid of him blowing up at them.
Last night we were arguing, I left to the store to get a break and he calls my cell to inform me he was leaving early back to the city in he now lives/works in M-F. THis weekend was supposed to be for the girls. After talking to him I returned home and was calmly talking to him when all the sudden to said something offensive to me and I blew and told him to go....he stormed out, ripped the fence off the hinge and drove the suburban right through the gate.
I shortly after received a call from his mom telling me she was going to interveign now since he was having blood pressure probs at the moment. I agreed not to talk to him and that was it.
I am so so scared that he will try to come back today and I don't wanna fight, and really don't wanna see him.
I know he depressed got health issues and he needs his space but I don't understand where the anger comes into play here?
This is not the man I married? 
This man is up and down, I love you, I cant stand you and doesn't know if he is coming or going and I can't handle it anymore.

I am scared but confident that my girls and I will be fine alone but there is that piece of me that loves him dearly and that is that hardest part. 

I am so so lost and lonely. I don't really wanna divorce but I can't live like this anymore......how do you turn off the feelings for them???


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