# Infidelity Statistics?



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Does anyone have a url or preferably several, that may indicate the statistics that a person may cheat or not?

It would be nice to see this broken down by

age group
gender
marital history 1st, 2nd, 3rd marriage, etc)

Might be nice to see what the current rates are like... I think everyone knows the first time marriages divorce rate.. that's practically a household number.

What about cheating rates?

This is a nice start..

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/stats-about-infidelity.html

If anyone has anymore good ones please post.

There are a lot on the www, but many are almost 10 years old or more...

Thx


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Some I just looked up. You'll have to go through them and determine which is valid. I'll make a best guess before posting them.
> 
> Infidelity Facts - Infidelity Statistics
> 
> ...


There are no scientific, credible stats regarding infidelity. Even one of the websites listed has a note that states:

Note: Due to the secretive nature of infidelity, it is impossible to find the exact figures about cheating and extra-marital affairs. In many cases, infidelity never gets discovered

They are at best guesstimates. Even the US divorce rate is an educated guess.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> There are no scientific, credible stats regarding infidelity. Even one of the websites listed has a note that states:
> 
> Note: Due to the secretive nature of infidelity, it is impossible to find the exact figures about cheating and extra-marital affairs. In many cases, infidelity never gets discovered
> 
> They are at best guesstimates. Even the US divorce rate is an educated guess.


I understand how statistics work.

Thanks.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Latest Infidelity Statistics of USA

I was pleased to see all those numbers until I read this comment : 



> _There is something missing in their relationships that compel them to look elsewhere for what they want
> _


What a pile of crap. Sure.. blame the betrayed spouse.

I don't think the authors of the url noted have read Shirley Glass. lol

Glass actually says outright that most men who cheat actually admitted to being happy with their marriage.

Even with women who cheated over 1/4 of them admitted to being happy with their marriage.

So.. how on earth can you conclude with confidence there's anything missing in the marriage?

You can't, not with confidence anyhow.. particularly when the wayward is male.

I am really tired of people pointing fingers at the spouse and the marriage when infidelity happens.

Many people cheat because of opportunity, not because they are "missing something"...

Infidelity = unhappy marriage/spouse not giving enough?

Where did this nonsensical urban legend get started anyhow???

Grrrrrrr


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Allen,
> 
> Men, before getting married, tend to think in terms of the individual things which are done by a woman he is interested in. He will make decisions based on those observations. After marriage, men tend to think of issues as a whole.
> 
> It is exactly the opposite for women. I read this at psychcentral. I don't have the link. If you want it, I can look for it. It should be a fairly accurate study.


I don't even follow what you wrote... lol


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I am not concerned about the why's of accuracy or inaccuracy.

I get that the data is not from a controlled sample.

I get that data collected from unethical and secret activity is questionable.

I get all of that.

Despite the trouble with the data, iti s what it is... And it's all we have to work on.

It does not make any sense to reject data simply because it's not as reliable as other data is.

It's still better than guessing!

I am noticing the numbers are all over the place.

I just thought it might be nice for people divorcing, or those already divorced, to know roughly what the odds are that they can avoid getting cheated on a second time.

If you stay with your spouse, you can be pretty sure it's 100%.

I am just wondering what the chances are if you leave or divorce. What are the current odds of getting cheated on a second time.

It is not looking good to be honest, the younger generation in particular is internet reckless beyond belief.

I think it would be comforting for people to hear they have say, a 75% chance of dodging the infidelity bullet the second go around...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Ya, I realize the chances are high enough that you need to prepare yourself.

I don't think anyone here wants to think that's what's going to happen to them all over again.

I can't even find an answer to a more obvious question : 

Who is better to date, someone who has cheated, made a mess, and regrets it

OR

Someone who has never cheated before

Who is the higher risk there? Someone who has been down that road and seen the mess it creates, or someone who is aware it happens, but has never done it yet?

Are you better off dating a remorseful cheat, or an infidelity virgin?


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Ya, I realize the chances are high enough that you need to prepare yourself.
> 
> I don't think anyone here wants to think that's what's going to happen to them all over again.
> 
> ...


Looks like you didn't find what you were looking for.You can't use stats to find someone who may be a better match. We're talking about human beings. You can meet a woman who you feel is a great match, live with her for 2-3 years, get married, and find out she is a pathological liar and a serial cheater.

You need to perform a complete due diligence as best as possible, to eliminate as much of the crap shoot as possible


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Source: Associated Press, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy
Research Date: 9.8.2013

Infidelity Statistics | Statistic Brain


Percent of marriages where one or both spouses admit to infidelity, either physical or emotional 41 %


Percent of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had 57 %


Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had 54 %


Percent of married men who have strayed at least once during their married lives 22 %


Percent of married women who have strayed at least once during their married lives 14 %


Percentage of men and women who admit to having an affair with a co-worker 36 %


Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips 35%


Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law 17 %


Average length of an affair 2 years


Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered 31 %


Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught 74 %


Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught 68 %


Percent of children who are the product of infidelity 3 %


Of course these stats only take into account those who _admit _to these things. It's my guess that the numbers are far higher.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> [*]Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips 35%


Does this mean 35% the married cheaters had their affair on a business trip?

Or does this mean 35% of the married people had an affair on a business trip?

:scratchhead:


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> You can't use stats to find someone who may be a better match


As opposed to ... guessing?

No, I'd rather go with the statistics thanks...


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

The one that really freaked me out is that some 64% of women would cheat if they knew they would never get caught. 

I have been married twice. I was married young and it only lasted 9 months, but she did cheat on me. The second one is what brought me here. I'm dabbling with that issue with an IC. I'm trying to find out why I keep getting married to cheaters.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Does this mean 35% the married cheaters had their affair on a business trip?
> 
> Or does this mean 35% of the married people had an affair on a business trip?
> 
> :scratchhead:


The way it reads I imagine it means that they admitted to actually committing infidelity whilst on a business trip. I don't know how else it can be read?


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> As opposed to ... guessing?
> 
> No, I'd rather go with the statistics thanks...


That's not what I implied. Read the post again!!!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Ya, I realize the chances are high enough that you need to prepare yourself.
> 
> I don't think anyone here wants to think that's what's going to happen to them all over again.
> 
> ...


Someone who tells the truth. In either of your alternatives, how do you know?

You are better to approach future relationships with the knowledge that cheating can arise as an issue and you need to guard against it.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> The way it reads I imagine it means that they admitted to actually committing infidelity whilst on a business trip. I don't know how else it can be read?


As I said, it's hard to determine if they are saying : 

35% of married people cheat while on business trips.

OR

35% of cheaters did their cheating while on a business trip.

Those two are not the same thing.

The first says 35% of married people cheat.

The second does not indicate how frequently married people cheat, only how frequently cheaters use business trips as their cover.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Source: Associated Press, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy
> Research Date: 9.8.2013
> 
> Infidelity Statistics | Statistic Brain
> ...


That is a mess. If this is right, we all have to look at our own marriages and those of our friends with a totally jaded eye. Doesn't seem to me that this can be right, but I have been wrong before.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> What a pile of crap. Sure.. blame the betrayed spouse.


That's not what this means. All humans have needs. Many don't know how to express them, for some reason. Like it or not, most people cheat for reasons that make sense only to them. I found myself in an almost sexless marriage for months, until recently, when I decided I'd had enough that I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. That it needed to be fixed.

I learned about women's needs, and about my own (book His Needs, Her Needs...brilliant BTW), and put that learning to work and we're well on our way to recovery. 

Each spouse is responsible for their own behaviors in the marriage that creates an environment that makes one person in the marriage to make a decision - get that need met outside the marriage or work with their spouse to get those needs met.

What is the difference between one who opts for the affair and one who fights for their marriage? I don't really know, I just know that I'd never, ever, ever do that to my wife, our marriage, or my family. I'd opt for the painful discussions, and perhaps fights, to make it clear what needs are not being met. If after all is said and done my spouse simply could not, or would not meet those needs, then I'd move to separation/divorce before I'd cause that kind of pain.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

BradWesley said:


> There are no scientific, credible stats regarding infidelity. Even one of the websites listed has a note that states:
> 
> Note: Due to the secretive nature of infidelity, it is impossible to find the exact figures about cheating and extra-marital affairs. In many cases, infidelity never gets discovered
> 
> They are at best guesstimates. Even the US divorce rate is an educated guess.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> What a pile of crap. Sure.. blame the betrayed spouse.
> 
> I don't think the authors of the url noted have read Shirley Glass. lol
> 
> ...


I don't believe that this is blaming the spouse, it is just saying that something is missing. I know that it is possible to be happy even though things aren't always the greatest. It is all relative. Just because I don't have all my bills paid and large piles of cash laying around, doesn't mean that I can't be happy with things.

Happiness can also come and go and we tend to look at the big picture and judge happiness based upon the overall. Is everything rosy from day to day and do I live for my job and everything in my life, no not at all times, but probably can say that as a whole I was happy (before the whole A thing happened). Does my WW feel the same way, I would think not, but does her lack of happiness stem from and belong solely to me or to her lack of "wanting" and pursuing her happiness?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There appears to be a big fall off after marriage. "Any relationship" is pretty vague.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Hahaha! There's the rub - how can there be any reliable stats on infidelity when the subjects of the study are liars by nature?

There can't.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Ive seen a bazillion links. They range mostly from ~25% to ~50%. I believe the 33% ones are closest.

For this I will define cheating as manual, oral, anal or vaginal sex.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> Hahaha! There's the rub - how can there be any reliable stats on infidelity when the subjects of the study are liars by nature?
> 
> There can't.


Which would seem to suggest it is all so much more dismal. I am not buying the numbers. Liars are liars. Cheaters are liars. I do not believe these numbers, especially when I understand that whatever percentage is self reported is quite likely to be quite a bit worse in reality. Maybe. I don't know. I've been wrong before. But the idea that every married person I know and encounter, some of whom I have known for years, the chances are better than not that they have been unfaithful. I am not buying it yet.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Healer said:


> Hahaha! There's the rub - how can there be any reliable stats on infidelity when the subjects of the study are liars by nature?
> 
> There can't.


I'd think the better questions to ask if they've ever been cheated ON, confirmed cheating. That type of self reporting is going to be much more accurate than asking if one they have ever cheated on somebody....

Of course, I might be able to catch my W in an affair if all I had to do is have somebody call from Skype purporting to conduct a poll about infidelity, and ask questions that would help me get my confirmation....many, I think most, won't even bother to fess up unless they've already been discovered. Those who are still in the closet with their affair won't self report affirmatively.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

john1068 said:


> I'd think the better questions to ask if they've ever been cheated ON, confirmed cheating. That type of self reporting is going to be much more accurate than asking if one they have ever cheated on somebody....
> 
> Of course, I might be able to catch my W in an affair if all I had to do is have somebody call from Skype purporting to conduct a poll about infidelity, and ask questions that would help me get my confirmation....many, I think most, won't even bother to fess up unless they've already been discovered. Those who are still in the closet with their affair won't self report affirmatively.


And how many BS's will never ever find out they were such?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Healer said:


> Hahaha! There's the rub - how can there be any reliable stats on infidelity when the subjects of the study are liars by nature?
> 
> There can't.


Anonymous surveys. That's what those are called.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

john1068 said:


> That's not what this means. All humans have needs.


This sounds like wayward babble...



john1068 said:


> Like it or not, most people cheat for reasons that make sense only to them.


They dont' make sense to the cheaters either, the cheaters aren't thinking, not the wayward or the OP.

To suggest that cheating makes sense to anyone is ridiculous and dismissive.



john1068 said:


> I found myself in an almost sexless marriage for months, until recently, when I decided I'd had enough that I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. That it needed to be fixed.


Cheating is an illegitimate response to legitimate complaints.

If your house needs electrical work you don't set the house on fire.

_Illegitimate response to legitimate problem.
_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Anonymous surveys. That's what those are called.


There really is no such thing, as somehow there is always some linkage to identification, and people know this so they cover or minimize just like in real life.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> There really is no such thing, as somehow there is always some linkage to identification, and people know this so they cover or minimize just like in real life.


Bull

I can hang out at an air port and give people self addressed stamped envelopes and a questionairre to be filled out.

Untraceable


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Anonymous surveys. That's what those are called.


Nope, those contain sample bias as well. Statistics and surveys are reliable to a point. Basically, the larger number of participants, the larger region of sampling and an equal mix of participants makes for the most reliable statistics.

I could go into a little more detail, but that isn't what you want.

Go to google schoolar and look for the peer reviewed statistics. They tend to have less of a bias than GQ or Maxim Magazine surveys.


Allen_A said:


> Bull
> 
> I can hang out at an air port and give people self addressed stamped envelopes and a questionairre to be filled out.
> 
> Untraceable


This is an example of sample bias. As someone related, 35% claim they cheated on a business trip.
You are in one of the top places to travel for business.......

Sample bias. Nope, not saying it invalidates your survey, just saying it can create a skewed percentages.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Bull


Think what you want, but prove to me otherwise. If it is through the internet, then there is IP tracing, the phone, a direct connect number, and in person, well we know how that works. There is always some telling mark, whether people want to pursue and identify the group that is another story, but no such thing exists in this day and age as true anonymity! 

So I say bull to your reply! (and your edit about the SASE questionaire is also traceable as the envelope would have a postmark on it, leading you back to the person (as most people are good with faces , they would have an inkling of whom they handed them out to and could connect the dots).


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Nope, those contain sample bias as well. Statistics and surveys are reliable to a point. Basically, the larger number of participants, the larger region of sampling and an equal mix of participants makes for the most reliable statistics.
> 
> I could go into a little more detail, but that isn't what you want.
> 
> Go to google schoolar and look for the peer reviewed statistics. They tend to have less of a bias than GQ or Maxim Magazine surveys.


You aren't talking about anonymity you are talking about bias.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Think what you want, but prove to me otherwise. If it is through the internet, then there is IP tracing, the phone, a direct connect number, and in person, well we know how that works. There is always some telling mark, whether people want to pursue and identify the group that is another story, but no such thing exists ion this day and age as true anonymity!
> 
> So I say bull to your reply! (and your edit, is also traceable as the envelope would have a postmark on it, leading you back to the person (as most people are good with faces , they would have an inkling of whom they handed them out to and could connect the dots).


I just did prove it. lol

There is not always some "telling mark", sorry.

Postmarks don't lead back to people, they lead back to post offices where the letter was mailed from lol

I am not worried about who handed the survey out. who cares if the person leading the survey is anonymous? lol

The anonymity is for the respondents.

If you use a self addressed stamped envelope and hand written questionnaire you can't trace that back, sorry.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I just did prove it. lol
> 
> There is not always some "telling mark", sorry.


No you didn't! LOL! I guess if you just want to write off the postmark then so be it (it was how the unibomber and several others were caught )most recently the ricin laced letters sent to the White House and Congree were traced directly back to the individual by postmark (and don't forget their would be prints, possibly DNA in the saliva on the envelope, etc) . So stick to your story!!


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> No you didn't! LOL! I guess if you just want to write off the postmark then so be it (it was how the unibomber and several others were caught )most recently the ricin laced letters sent to the White House and Congress. So stick to your story!!


Right, someone cheats on their wife and the FBI is going to get involved to hunt them down?

That's hilarious, but bull.

Do you have a realistic counter argument at all?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> You aren't talking about anonymity you are talking about bias.


I know, bias is in the quote. I am saying that anonymity doesn't make a survey more reliable. You know in correlation to this post:


> Hahaha! There's the rub - how can there be any reliable stats on infidelity when the subjects of the study are liars by nature?
> 
> There can't.


There is a study out there that actually makes the above quote scary. I found it once and it disappeared. I'll search again because it will make you wonder about the percentages all over again.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Right, someone cheats on their wife and the FBI is going to get involved to hunt them down?
> 
> That's hilarious, but bull.


Once again proven wrong but hanging on until the end, keep up the good work. The argument wasn't whether the FBI was involved or would get involved, the argument presented was that there is not true anonymity today, and you have proven nothing yet (although I have shown that there are several ways to trace just about anything, so I have proven my side. Where is your proof!). Since you lost that argument, now you are going to skew it away from the facts presented so you can try and prove your point (and in certain cases the FBI and government has been involved in the cheating on a spouse, both in covering it up, ahem..Kennedy, and putting the facts out there, ahem..Clinton. Will it happen for Joe the plumber, probably not, but one never knows.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> the argument presented was that there is not true anonymity today


In the context of a discussion about infidelity statistics lol

The FBI is not part of that context. lol

Yes, taken drastically out of context there is a small chance the FBI (lol.. funny) could hunt a cheater from an anonymous survey down. lol

Right, like that's gonna happen.



Squeakr said:


> , and you have proven nothing yet (although I have shown that there are several ways to trace just about anything, so I have proven my side. Where is your proof!).


What you have proven is that you can take an argument out of context in order to drum up an unrealistic counter-argument, that's all you have proven.



Squeakr said:


> Since you lost that argument, now you are going to skew it away from the facts presented so you can try and prove your point


No, I am trying to ground this argument into context again. We aren't talking about unibombers here, we are talking about infidelity. lol



Squeakr said:


> (and in certain cases the FBI and government has been involved in the cheating on a spouse, both in covering it up, ahem..Kennedy, and putting the facts out there, ahem..Clinton. Will it happen for Joe the plumber, probably not, but one never knows.


Good grief, the degree of infidelity by government reps adds nothing to the argument, you are just blathering now...

Next you'll be talking about aliens and outer space and how they diffuse anonymous surveys about infidelity lol

What about ghosts and goblins?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> In the context of a discussion about infidelity statistics lol
> 
> The FBI is not part of that context. lol
> 
> ...


Think what you want, but I never brought the government or FBI into this argument. That is where you're doing and where you went with it trying to discredit my examples (so the blathering is all yours to own!). I just stated that everything could be traced, therefor no true anonymity exists, and gave proven examples of tracking through different media and how it was possible to do so. You were the one that introduced the FBI and government to discredit my examples and tried to make it laughable by stating that the FBI wouldn't ever get involved in infidelity (your weak counter argument point, and by now YOU have driven the argument away from a survey and introduced a different area) and I once again showed proof that they can and sometimes do (with 2 examples) and yet you once again turn it on me like I am the one that is reaching for straws. I have agreed that they probably wouldn't for the average man, but yet you are trying to denounce all of my arguments.

I hope that you aren't a lawyer (and I am not) as your clients would be very unhappy with their representation, as you present unrelated evidence that just open up a whole new line of questions, allowing for more, and possibly [email protected] evidence to be used as admissible since you started the line of questing, therefor relevance takes over.

Edit:
I like you like the added edit about the aliens, goblins, and ghosts. You can only see that you have lost your argument, so you develop diarrhea of the mouth and just start blathering about anything that comes to mind. Yet if I were to bring up an example with any of these new additions you have added (which you somehow think, like the FBI Addition, were part of the original argument or that I added them), you would shoot me down as taking the argument to anew direction or level. Just give up when you are so far behind the 8-ball. Just throwing out incongruent thoughts and smatterings is not helping your case nor making me look bad, since you are proven wrong in a statement you have to result to insulting the other person. Nice!


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

zzzzzz....


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> As I said, it's hard to determine if they are saying :
> 
> 35% of married people cheat while on business trips.
> 
> ...


That website survey was for people who admitted to cheating. If you cheated, did you do it on a business trip? So the 35% is of cheaters, not 35% of all married people.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriage therapists tell me that cheating is increasing. At least in their experiences in their offices they are seeing a definite shift in the last 10 years. Interestingly, social media usage and cell phone ownership have exploded over the last 10 years.

In the past, the couples who came in for therapy only had infidelity in about half (according to one therapist relative of mine). Now it is nearly 100% of couples. She is also seeing a large bubble in the middle age group, roughly 40 - 60 yrs old.

My personal experience with friends and coworkers indicates that the infidelity rate is very high, somewhere over 50% of all couples. Most likely 2/3rds. These are the affairs we can be confident about. This would suggest an individual rate of around 40% or more of all married people have at least one affair which is discovered or rightfully suspected.

My observation, and what I am told by therapists of their clientelle, is that women cheat as often as men. Women may be less likely to admit it on surveys. We know they tend to reduce their number of sex partners on surveys. 

One of the necessary factors in an affair is opportunity. Opportunity has greatly expanded in the electronic age. Opportunity to make contact with the most dangerous potential AP, an ex lover. Opportunity to nurture the early stages of an affair via covert communications. Opportunity to facilitate meetups via covert communications.

One thing which has changed over the past decades is more recognition of a crush as a form of EA. I agree more with the old school of thought that one can have a short term crush or lust attack without it being an affair. If one does nothing to further a relationship then it isn't an affair. It may be a distraction, but if one has strong boundaries and stays away from this other person, it is not a disloyalty to the marriage.

We may be over-reporting EAs as a result, based on my view of it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Thor said:


> Marriage therapists tell me that cheating is increasing. At least in their experiences in their offices they are seeing a definite shift in the last 10 years. Interestingly, social media usage and cell phone ownership have exploded over the last 10 years.
> 
> In the past, the couples who came in for therapy only had infidelity in about half (according to one therapist relative of mine). Now it is nearly 100% of couples. She is also seeing a large bubble in the middle age group, roughly 40 - 60 yrs old.
> 
> ...


I can only credit the close to 100% statistic if it is taking an extreme view of EAs.

But then you would have to clarify what cheating is. When I develop a close relationship with another woman, I take steps to reinforce boundaries, one of which is to tell my wife, and put her in control of things. I suppose someone could look at one of those friendships and argue it is an affair, but since everything that happens has my wife's permission and blessing, it is not cheating. (And by my definition, not an affair either).


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> You aren't talking about anonymity you are talking about bias.


You started this thread seeking reliable and comprehensive statistics on infidelity.

Do you care whether it is lack of anonymity that makes stats unreliable, or bias? Or is your main focus "are these stats reliable, and if not why not?"

Maybe the FBI won't get involved, but lots of people just won't reveal this sort of personal information to strangers. Safer to assume there is a scam. "What is they are a detective hired by my spouse and the envelope is identifiable in some way?" for example. That is how I would think. My wife (who unlike me has had an affair) would not be so conscious. She would just not reveal personal info to strangers.

I don't mind if you want to keep arguing. But given the intense interest this subject has for most people, I think if it were possible to get reliable stats, more skilled people than you and I would have done it by now.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Infidelity Statistics*



2ntnuf said:


> A woman I know, who has been cheated on, told me, "If you are sharing anything personal with a potential sexual partner, it's cheating.(EA)"
> 
> Harsh standards and they are personal to every individual, but it makes a strong point, I bet many women would agree with.


Which makes faithful life pretty lonely for bisexuals....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> hahahahaha I never thought of it that way! I wonder why...........


Now don't you go spreading rumors!!!!

But being serious.....,I understand your friend's line. I just think it is very firm. Which may be appropriate. Certainly the more risk there is for sexual congress the more you need to have limits in place so the temptation is avoided.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Use discretion. Are you sharing something about your marriage or spouse? Probably not a good idea. Are you talking about sex? Again, probably not a good idea. Confiding emotionally about really anything, family, pets, celebrity or other crushes. Again, all probably bad ideas. I like white anchovies and snow days. Probably ok, but know where the line is.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Re-thinking, it seems it is not about being mindful of a line, but mindful of yourself. Do you really want to do that? Cheapen your marriage that way? You can if you want.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> I think if it were possible to get reliable stats, more skilled people than you and I would have done it by now.


Exactly, the numbers would be much closer in each study. I've seen numbers as low as 6% up to the ones we constantly see pushed on the website.


> Are you sharing something about your marriage or spouse? Probably not a good idea. Are you talking about sex? Again, probably not a good idea. Confiding emotionally about really anything, family, pets, celebrity or other crushes. Again, all probably bad ideas.


 This is basically what the study I can't find addressed. If I put on my tinfoil hat, I'd think they buried the results. It had a larger than normal sampling, compared to many of the infidelity surveys I see, which is why it caught my eye.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I agree with you, Wazza. I'm not sure where the best place to draw that line is. It is an individual decision based upon past experience and our ability to forgive and forget.


I would have to vehemently disagree on this point. Where do you draw the line on what's cheating I don't think is an individual decision. Don't you think your spouse has a voice in this?

I find it interesting there's talk about how to define cheating and no one suggested to simply ask the spouse what they are comfortable with? lol

I think its probably best o negotiate with your spouse to identify what degree of risk the two of you are willing and comfortable with each other engaging in.

Again, I don't think this is something you decide in secret. Your spouse is the primary victim, not you, so they should most certainly have a voice here. Maybe not the final say, but certainly a voice to some degree. Not to mention these definitions would apply to both spouses.

Again a good reason to negotiate and communicate.

You may find what you think is strict, your spouse thinks is just right. I do think though that it's best to keep the rules equal for both spouses.

For what it's worth McGraw just says it plainly enough : 
_
If you wouldn't do it with your spouse there in the room watching you, it's cheating.
_

And for those single forum members : 

_
If you wouldn't do it with their spouse there in the room watching you, it's cheating.
_



2ntnuf said:


> I think changing my behavior and boundaries, to afford less opportunity of infidelity and making that a permanent change, is what will be most effective in future relationships.


And negotiating with your spouse to ensure this is reciprocal.



2ntnuf said:


> I don't know, though. I'm still working on it and just starting to work on changing me.


Work with your spouse to negotiate that.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> For this I will define cheating as manual, oral, anal or vaginal sex.



@ weightlifter. Would you consider it cheating if a man had 100 hours of conversations with a woman, never kissed or had sex with her, fell in love with her, talked about marriage with her and then told his wife he wanted a divorce so he could marry her? That's what my husband did, and it devastated me and our marriage, of course.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

IFAR. Yes. I guess i should differentiate. I meant PA. My wife had an EA via email with an ex. As an extra treat he is a half literate inbred hillbilly.

And yes the loss of trust is devastating. I remember seeing the email thing .. After the rage died... Naw this happens to other people...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> When I develop a close relationship with another woman, I take steps to reinforce boundaries, one of which is to tell my wife, *and put her in control of things*. I suppose someone could look at one of those friendships and argue it is an affair, but since everything that happens has my wife's permission and blessing, it is not cheating. (And by my definition, not an affair either).


Did you write this next post with or without what I just quoted in mind. Bear in mind that the posts you quoted were responses to what I wrote. The context was..."ok a different set of rules may be ok provided your spouse has agreed.



Allen_A said:


> I would have to vehemently disagree on this point. Where do you draw the line on what's cheating I don't think is an individual decision. Don't you think your spouse has a voice in this?
> 
> I find it interesting there's talk about how to define cheating and no one suggested to simply ask the spouse what they are comfortable with? lol
> 
> ...


Btw I like the McGraw quote..that very rule has kept me on the straight and narrow many times.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> She does not have a voice in what I say is cheating. She has a voice in what she says is cheating. I can't speak for her. I've been divorced since 2012. I can say, her line was different than mine. I didn't cheat. She did, many times.


I am referring to spouses that are still together. If anyone is divorced the point is moot.



2ntnuf said:


> Defining those boundaries for yourself and not compromising, unless there is a good reason, is important to self respect. You don't have to like my opinion. You don't have to respect it.


You do have to compromise with your spouse (if you have one) for goodness sakes.

The thing is, what two people agree on as being a betrayal ought to apply to both of the spouses.

If the rules are too strict, they are too strict for both, if they are too loose, they are too loose for both.

My main point is you don't decide what is cheating on your spouse without having a conversation with your spouse. lol

_It's just nonsensical to be in a committed relationship with another person and not consult them on what would or would not be a betrayal.
_

If you don't want to get cheated on, make sure your spouse knows what cheating means.

If your spouse does not want you to cheat, your spouse needs to make sure you know what cheating means.

Both spouses, talking, together... almost sounds like a... shall we say it... marriage?



2ntnuf said:


> I deserve respect for having boundaries and keeping them.


Has someone said otherwise?



2ntnuf said:


> I do like those quotes in italics.
> 
> You can negotiate, but, "the proof is in the pudding". Actions do speak louder than words. Negotiate too much, and you will have cause to become a doormat like me. I won't compromise as much with anyone else.


Negotiate does not mean be a doormat. I am suggesting that _two people who want to avoid betrayal should discuss what constitutes betrayal._

If two people are in a committed relationship and don't want to get cheated on, they ought to be talking to their spouse to make sure their darn spouse knows what cheating means. lol

Deciding all these things in isolation is rather comical to say the least.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I did not say you don't have to compromise. What I did say was, you only compromise when there is a good reason.


Well, I don't know anyone that would consider compromising with a bad reason.

But yes, I think we understand one another here...



2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, it would be nice if it did. How would you know? Do you think you'd see how she acted and that would provide proof that she is living up to her negotiated boundaries?


The thing is, spouse's don't like to be policed. It's disrespectful.

On the other hand, you can't be expected to sit around while your spouse takes her cell phone into the shower with her either.

This is a tricky one and I just use the same policy the law does for violating privacy : 

_Reasonable Cause
_

If your spouse is demonstrating a pattern of suspicious behavior. You have to investigate. She's given you cause to violate privacy at that point.

If you go too early, you are being disrespectful to her. If you wait too long, something is too far down the road to put a stop to it.



2ntnuf said:


> That explains a little better. I got the impression you would ask her what she thought was cheating and agree to it.


No, I wouldn't suggest anyone agree to anything blindly.

What I was reading here was a lot of people talking about doing the opposite.

Expecting a spouse to not cheat on you that was

a. uninformed on what cheating means to you
b. not invited to the negotiation about what constitutes betrayal
c. not allowed a voice in what infidelity is and how to avoid it

That just seems as silly as agreeing sight unseen.

No, don't accept your wife's terms blindly, but dont' make these decisions about what you will accept or not accept from her in secret either. Talk about it.

If you do'nt want her having any private lunches with attractive men from her workplace, let her know! lol

I honestly think this would be a very healthy conversation to have. It would also be an informative one.

Don't you want to know what your spouse would consider cheating? Don't you want to know if she's got the right idea or the wrong idea?

Heck, hand her a copy of Shirley Glass' _Not Just Friends_ and have a three hour chit chat about it I say...



2ntnuf said:


> Well, as long as she tells you what should be cheating, I guess it's alright.


I think it's important to you that you know what she thinks it is rather than waiting to find out something like : 

_I have fallen in love with him, I do plan to leave you, but we havent' had sex, so I am not cheating..
_

Is that when you want to find out how your spouse defines cheating??? That's a bit late in the game isn't it?



2ntnuf said:


> That sure stopped my wife.


I am not suggesting that it will guarantee it, but it will give fair warning. It will also give you the go ahead to act to protect yourself. If you warn her ahead of time

a. no private lunches with attractive men from work
b. no talking about marital troubles
c. no skype at 4 am

And she does these things and ends up infatuated, you know she knew she was headed down a dark road and you did give her fair warning. You cant' rationalize to yourself that she made a mistake and let her off the hook.

_Making sure she and you are on the same page protects you both better than not discussing it_.



2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, because if she doesn't tell me what cheating is, I might do something that she didn't like. I'd best do what she tells me.


It may cause a stir yes. I do think you need to take the time to understand someone you profess to love yes.

I think discussing this, arriving at some understanding together is far more constructive. I think it's far more constructive than sitting in some closet someplace with a notepad and pen working out the "house rules" you expect her to follow.



2ntnuf said:


> No, I was explaining my position concerning respecting myself. I may deserve something, but not get it. I wasn't accusing you. I wasn't clear.


What you will tolerate will overlap here yes.

I don't recommend giving up the whole strategy for unfortunate scenarios though.

If she decides to go wayward on you, and you have given away your hand to her to begin with, you are at risk for getting royally exploited.
_
I do think you need to keep your contingency plans to yourself_.

I do think though it's important to discuss where the lines actually are. If she chooses to cross them later anyways, then you are best to have her blind for that.



2ntnuf said:


> Discussing what you think betrayal is, will not stop betrayal.


Nope, it won't. But _not discussing infidelity is inviting a higher risk of betrayal than discussing it_.

Seriously... you can't expect her to play safe if she doesn't even know what the safety rules are.

Nor you, heck, she may even teach you a thing or two about women and risks you invite into your marriage you didn't know about.

Granted, this is about a committed partner, I am not suggesting people who are divorced go back to their x spouses and have a chit chat, that's moot.



2ntnuf said:


> You seem to be changing your mind. You started off by saying you should compromise. Now you're saying you should tell her what your boundaries are. Which is it?


I think you should let her know what you think cheating is so she knows where the line is you don't want her crossing.

This line may shift during the conversation, it may get tighter, or more likely it will get more focused. For a lot of spouses I think the problem is a lack of focus on what cheating means.

Most spouses go into a marriage knowing roughly what cheating means, but not having a concrete enough understanding to act on it until it's way too late.

Most spouses understand "cheating" to mean "no sex with other people".

In my opinion that definition is not restrictive enough.

a. no private lunches with other men
b. no private chats with other men
c. no discussing personal information with other men
d. no discussing marital problems with other men

etc.. these are the terms I would use to begin a discussion about what cheating means.

Most spouses would hear those four examples and be shocked. I would call each of those examples cheating.

We cheat in small doses, we often wade into the cheating pool rather than diving right in.

As Glass says in her book 

_By the time we realize where the line is, we are on the other side of it.
_ 

I say have a chat early, at least it gives you a fighting chance.



2ntnuf said:


> You might want to know what your boundaries are before you get married.


And you might want your spouse to know too.



2ntnuf said:


> It will be much less comical when you go into a marriage and just agree with her boundaries without exploring what they mean to you personally, first.


I think all of this ought to be discussed during the courting period.

Unfortunately when people are infatuated, they rarely have these serious chats.

This is why in part a lot of infidelity relationships fail too. You don't take the time to seriously find out who the other is. Two people just play around in secret and find out after they have merged their lives together what the other is made of.

Talk early, talk about what cheating means before they find out the hard way.

There are a great many people that end up infatuated without planning that to happen. I don't know what the breakdown is, but a lot of affairs happen because people don't have their marital boundaries sorted out yet. Discuss them with your spouse!

You want to get an understanding shared with your spouse to avoid that from happening. You can't accomplish that deciding things in secret.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I didn't press the issue because it was supposedly, "none of my business".


The downfall of many marriages, relationships and friendships.

I find it strange that there are cameras and recording devices everywhere, people rarely complain, but they still want complete privacy from the people they have married.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The only type of tests I gave, were to ask her a questions about something we observed together, that someone else was doing. Like, "if you were in that situation, what would you do?" I don't think that's a, "sh!t test". I think it's just, "good business".


No, I don't think that's a good test either.



2ntnuf said:


> Done and done, on both accounts. Things change in life and marriage. People are placed in stressful positions. You don't know what they will do, by words alone.


No, you have to gauge their behavior under stress. We get blindsided often enough, yes.

All I can suggest for those out there who are gunshy is to observe behavior, quietly, and thoroughly.

From my own end there were more than enough warning signs and I ignored them.



2ntnuf said:


> Past action does indicate possible future performance. She didn't say much about her past.


I find in my case that there is enough transfer trouble to have known better. Your spouse does not need to have cheated in the past for you to throw down a flag.

Deception
Equivocation
Lying by Omission or Commission
Shortage of Impulse Control
Can't keep a healthy diet (indulgent)
Enjoys alcohol
Can't manage finances well - credit card debt

Any of these is a red flag and observable.

I honestly don't even recommend asking, I would just suggest observing carefully. The bigger problem is when people are courting, they have on their best clothes and their best face. It's not an honest picture to begin with.



2ntnuf said:


> I thought it wasn't my business, just like so many here state. I let it go. I trusted. I am here and divorced because she went back to doing what she had done in the past, which was never revealed. I didn't press the issue because it was supposedly, "none of my business".


I think in the future you would very much make it your business. I know I will.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

People tend to allow their bad behavior in other areas to spill into their relationship.

If someone you are dating is 

a. hiding information from friends
b. shady with finances
c. can't control their impulses to shop, etc

It's something to be aware of. Impulse control is not often limted to infidelity.

If impulse control is the issue with your previous spouse and why infidelity happened, you may have observed impulse control issues with her in other areas for example.

Diet and finances are common areas where impulse control issues also manifests itself.

If you date someone that says they are on a diet, but you observe them rationalizing eating junk, this is a red flag.

I know it sounds silly, but if you want to know if your spouse may cheat, check out their credit history... find out how much debt they accumulate, and how regularly they pay debt off. How many payments they missed in their credit history.

If people spend recklessly, odds are they may relate with other men recklessly too.

Don't ask them if they are good with their finances - check it yourself.

Don't get me wrong, there are people who are careful with money and can stick to a diet that cheat, but there are a lot more who can't do it.

There are a variety of reasons why people cheat, but lack of impulse control is a big one and you ought to be able to spot the warning signs of that early enough.

I didn't even get into alcohol consumption. If they need to drink to feel better, odds are they will seek out an affair to get a buzz on too.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Or a better question to ask is, what are your mate's coping strategies?

Everyone has coping strategies.

Work
Weight lifting
Jogging
Knitting
Gardening

Whatever.

There are healthy coping strategies and less than healthy ones : 

Alcohol
Shopping
Gambling
Video Games
Eating Junk

etc

You will notice the less healthy strategies offer instant gratification, whereas the healthier ones offer a long term benefit instead.

Guess where infidelity goes?

Try to figure out what your mate does under stress, to cope with the stress.

I am willing to bet most of the people you observe who dont' cheat have healthier coping strategies than the ones you know that do cheat.

I am not suggesting this will be true in all cases, but these are things you can observe to give yourself a heads up.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Not when we first met, but three years later, she wanted to reconcile with her brother, and that's when some trouble started. It snowballed from there.


I know the examples won't offer anything concrete, but it's a place to start.

If she's giving creditors the dodge, expect her to play the same cat and mouse games with you.

Again infidelity will often be part and parcel to this escapism fantasy.

Double standards, as you indicated with her diet, again is another indicator that she's ok with her cheating, while she won't tolerate that from you.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Allen_A said:


> Or a better question to ask is, what are your mate's coping strategies?
> 
> Everyone has coping strategies.
> 
> ...


Allen,

I married my with very young. She started cheating at year 25 of marriage. But the signs were always there, just too stupid to ever see through her beauty... as you said..._ "these are things you can observe to give yourself a heads up."_

Couple those less healthy coping skills with vanity and selfishness (secretive) and you got it pegged for infidelity. If I might add to your list... Passive Aggressive, bury and bottle up those marriage issues, now she martyr to boot. 

I think you nailed it with the desire for instant gratification. And think about it? I needed to provide nothing to equation for her to "finally" be happy and fulfilled. On the surface, sounds like the perfect deal... until caught.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Other red flags

What kind of films does she enjoy? There's a hit list here of hate marriage films - is she throwing flags down with being a Titanic fan?

What kind of novels line her bookshelf - romantic escapism nonsense?

Does she own a copy of any marriage therapy books?

Does she have a copy of Harley form her first failed marriage, does she watch Dr Phil on a regular basis?

Lots of stuff to look for, some obvious, some less so...

What is the caliber of her friends and their romantic status?

Does she have a lot of guy friends?

lots to look out for without asking her a thing.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Sorry, there are flags and there is obsession.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Will you explain in a little more detail, why those are red flags? Some of them, I may be forgetting something. I loved the titanic and enjoyed the love between the two. I haven't watched it in years. Not sure why it's bad.


It's romantic escapism.

Rose is engaged
She and her mother have committed to marry the guy

Instead, she flirts with the cute artist floating around the boat who clearly has no problems flirting back with her.

It's just romantic escapism.

The film's message is, if you are unhappy, run around a boat with some flighty irresponsible artist, have sex in secret, and humiliate your finance. This apparently somehow leads you to a better life (I am still trying to figure out how that works)

There is a list of films here on this forum and I even categorized it, check that thread out. I will see if I can find the url.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...st-movie-about-cheating-i-have-ever-seen.html



> Will you throw out the book you are reading to learn all of this before you get married?


There is no specific book. I read articles about infidelity, books, videos, I made a research project out of the circumstances that lead up to it. There are patterns to watch for, definite patterns.



2ntnuf said:


> What's up with Dr. Phil? I don't watch, but don't know off hand other than he seems like a drama queen, to some extent.


There are several episodes of Dr Phil on youtube and elsewhere. He interviews couples dealing with infidelity. You get to see the patterns after a while.

McGraw may not be the best therapist in the world, but watching him sit down with a couple for an hour, while you get to be a fly on the wall is priceless.

He's probably not the best therapist, but due to the popularity of his show, he's one of the most accessible.

If I could get actual video footage of other therapists working at resolving conflict in marriages with couples I would watch it, but it's hard to come by. McGraw has a show that runs five days a week.

He's not the best, but he's accessible.

I can send you some urls to some good episodes if you want.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry, there are flags and there is obsession.


Obsession?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Many of us have less than great friends from the past. I had a few who I hadn't contacted in twenty years, but were held against me. Isn't what you do now, in some ways, important, too?
> 
> Romantc status? Are her friends single? Is that what you mean? Most singles, will have single friends, until they get married. Not sure I get that one. Will you please explain?


Current friends is the most important. What you do now is more important than what you were doing fifteen years ago.

And yes, in my opinion single women are a risk to married women. Single women will introduce your wife to a lifestyle that is not conducive to a happy marriage.

I am sure there are exceptions, but if you add into the mix your potential mate hangs out with a lot of single women it's a red flag in my opinion.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Now, I remember. Okay. I forgot about that in the titanic movie. I was so enamored with the desire and love they showed for one another, I completely glossed over the infidelity.


Yes, the infidelity was completely glossed over. Infidelity in some films is discouraged, in others like Titanic, infidelity is romanticized.

Films are a popular pastime today, and they will offer a ubiquitous education in the process. It's helpful to be mindful of what she's watching.

Too much _Titanic_ and not enough of _Unfaithful_ and you may have a warning sign.



> I always thought having good books about relationship building was a sign that one wants to be a better person. One has done all they can to be a good person. That's why I didn't understand that.


Yep they can be a good indicator. Their absence can be an indicator as well.

I am just saying, look at her bookshelf. What is there, and what isn't there...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Check out navygirls thread from today, her husband is a classic case, you can see all the warning signs : 

Financial Infidelity
Risk Taker
Impulse Control issues
History of promiscuity
father at a very early age
Seeks forgiveness rather than permission

Infidelity is right down the road from all of that.. you can call that like a snowstorm. It's not as if the guy snuck up on her...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/152129-he-technically-cheated.html

This is all just my opinion I know... that's all anyone an offer.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

The gun on it's own is not an issue.

He bought it without a conversation
He spent money without a discussion (a lot if I recall)
He has no place to safely store it and has a 12 year old in his home.

All of this points to someone who acts on his impulses and does what he wants, without much forethought to the consequences.

If he negotiated with his wife for a gun
If he saved up carefully and negotiated with the savings plan
If he had a safe place to store the gun
If there was not a young boy in the home

All of this would have been a lot less alarming...

This really should be in the other thread, give it a read and see what she says, its not a long thread.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I did read it. I didn't get that sense from it, but I'm sure something was mentioned. I understand.


You can read my comments in there about it. That's a rather alarming case.



2ntnuf said:


> I want to admit that those issues I had, didn't occur until I was at a place where my x2 had already committed adultery via sex. I realized it wasn't the way to handle things and I was wrong.


Some people have impulse control, some people don't. Most of us struggle to some degree, but most of us put more effort into it.

I don't doubt you did the best you could.

I have a copy of _Relationship Rescue_ in my home. Do you think she went to read that when crisis happened? nope


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Allen,

I guess every situation has differences... but, in my wife's case when she was cheating it was pure cheaters script. The cute new figure, obsession with sexy cloths, new single friends, GNO, she even read the romance novels. 

When I finally caught her in PA, I brought all this to her attention... Unbelievable... she could see it or didn't want to believe it.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Anonymous surveys. That's what those are called.


Anonymous or not, cheaters are liars.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Healer said:


> Anonymous or not, cheaters are liars.


Why on earth would someone lie on an anonymous survey and take the effort to send the results back in snail mail? lol

That just strikes me as terribly far fetched to say the least.


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