# I see nothing wrong...



## noturtypicalwoman

Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....

Anyone?


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## Jakobi Greenleaf

I suspect it is somewhere in between. If I wrote a list of the ten most important things to me in my marriage, sex would be as high as number two or as low as number three. I suspect that most guys would place it at a similar level. I think your husband could handle the asking for sex part better. I also think that you could do a better job of meeting his needs as a man. I am inclined to believe that if he were to have joined and phrased the same issue from his point of view he would be told to either 180 or start looking into divorce. A very important line in my wedding vows said foresaking all others. That means I gave up my chance at every other woman in the world. If you are not going to make it worth his while, how can you expect him to keep his vows?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Liam

I always tend to think of it as the 'cherry on top', rather than 'the most important thing'. Us men do see it as important though, that's just the way we are wired up  On the other hand though, desperation and constant nagging is only going to turn a woman off.

Maybe you can try to meet in the middle somewhere? He makes you feel more relaxed and special, and you agree to put more effort into the area of intimacy? His current approach is only going to create tension, so maybe the best thing is to explain _why_ you feel the way you do about this area. As long as it's something you are willing to work on though. Good luck


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## See_Listen_Love

What Jacobi said!


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## noturtypicalwoman

Well you have all made good points. While I do not believe he is the type to stray (he's too shy around anyone else but me), I do get your point, Jakobi. Come to think of it, there has been some stress lately with our families, maybe that's a part of me not wanting it? I don't know and I don't want to make excuses for myself. And yes Liam, his approcah only succeeds in turning me off. Clearly we both need to work on this. I will do some brainstorming and sit him down for a heart to heart. Thanks everyone!


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## unbelievable

It's not whether sex is important. It's whether your husband is important; whether your marriage is important. Pooh Poohing his needs is the same as telling him that he doesn't matter and neither does your marriage. He's not asking to get off. He can do that himself and with a lot less drama. He's turning to his wife because he needs to feel intimate with her. That aint important?


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## anchorwatch

Oh boy, how common is you dilemma. You need to speak each others languages. Get this book and take a look at this site. You should both take the quiz. Enjoy.

The 5 Love Languages®


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## noturtypicalwoman

unbelievable said:


> It's not whether sex is important. It's whether your husband is important; whether your marriage is important. Pooh Poohing his needs is the same as telling him that he doesn't matter and neither does your marriage. He's not asking to get off. He can do that himself and with a lot less drama. He's turning to his wife because he needs to feel intimate with her. That aint important?


I never said his needs are not important. He gets intamacy and attention and appreciation.. all without sex. I was never 'poo-poohing" his needs, I was merely wondering why sex specifically was so important when he knows I love him.


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## noturtypicalwoman

anchorwatch said:


> Oh boy, how common is you dilemma. You need to speak each others languages. Get this book and take a look at this site. You should both take the quiz. Enjoy.
> 
> The 5 Love Languages®


Thanks! I will check that out!


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## Mistys dad

Why do you say that wanting sex is "refusing to grow up"?

Also keep this in mind, trust, respect and loyalty will be the first three things thrown out when the good looking coworker catches the eyes of a spouse in a low sex marriage.


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## uhaul4mybaggage

God, how many marriages have gone south because her libido dies and/or his romantic side takes a permanent vacation. 

Wish I knew then..

Any way, go jump on your husband. Right now. Even if you don't want to. Tell him you can't take it anymore, you have to have him RIGHT NOW. 

You'll be glad you did.


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## missmolly

Men and women have different needs - if you want him to respect yours, why shouldn't you respect his? They don't have to be the same to be legitimate. This is what he is, so do you really love all of him or only selective parts?


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## noturtypicalwoman

Mistys dad said:


> Why do you say that wanting sex is "refusing to grow up"?
> 
> Also keep this in mind, trust, respect and loyalty will be the first three things thrown out when the good looking coworker catches the eyes of a spouse in a low sex marriage.


I was referring to his nagging for sex. And as I said before, believe what you want, but he is not the type to stray.


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## Maricha75

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I never said his needs are not important. He gets intamacy and attention and appreciation.. all without sex. I was never 'poo-poohing" his needs, I was merely wondering why sex specifically was so important when he knows I love him.


Simply put, many men view sex as the way they feel loved... not just intimacy and attention. Intimacy covers a wide variety of areas, not just sex. I'm guessing, from the way you have explained it, appreciation, attention, intimacy would be how YOU feel loved... i.e. your love language. You likely have a mix of a couple, but one is slightly more dominant. 



noturtypicalwoman said:


> Well you have all made good points. While I do not believe he is the type to stray (he's too shy around anyone else but me)


Believe me, this means NOTHING when it comes to cheating. If someone sees him as vulnerable, she will prey on it, believe me. It won't matter how shy he is. If someone is giving him attention, he will enjoy it...if he is so inclined. Being shy has nothing to do with it whatsoever.


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## Maricha75

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I was referring to his nagging for sex.* And as I said before, believe what you want, but he is not the type to stray.*


That's what I thought about my husband. He always said flirting equals cheating... and he got involved in an emotional affair because I wasn't meeting HIS needs. So yes, it DOES happen, even when we believe they aren't the "type" to cheat.


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## anchorwatch

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Thanks! I will check that out!


Good, for you to look for the answers. Let us know what you find.


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## MattMatt

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Well you have all made good points. *While I do not believe he is the type to stray (he's too shy around anyone else but me),* I do get your point, Jakobi. Come to think of it, there has been some stress lately with our families, maybe that's a part of me not wanting it? I don't know and I don't want to make excuses for myself. And yes Liam, his approcah only succeeds in turning me off. Clearly we both need to work on this. I will do some brainstorming and sit him down for a heart to heart. Thanks everyone!


Really? Ya think? Not saying he will but if you think: "Hey, I can play mind games with hubby, as he'll never be able to get another woman" that's not fair of you, is it?:scratchhead:


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## WorkingOnMe

If sex is good it's 10% of the marriage. If it's bad (or rare) it's 90% of the marriage. Oh, and I agree with him. If you think sex is "not important to me at all" then you've got a huge problem. I also tend to agree with him that if you don't want it then chances are you probably are not that attracted to him anymore. Yup, you two have issues. And if it's solvable, then the first step is to admit it's a problem.


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## noturtypicalwoman

Ok I'm beginning to see this was a huge mistake. Unless you know my husband personally, you have no place to tell me what he will and won't do. But Maricha did make one good point. I need to be more attuned to his "way of feeling loved."


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## MattMatt

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I never said his needs are not important. He gets intamacy and attention and appreciation.. all without sex. I was never 'poo-poohing" his needs, I was merely wondering why sex specifically was so important when he knows I love him.


No! That's not how it works! It really isn't!

He needs sex with his wife. So, yes, you *are* poo-poohing his needs.

You are sending out mixed messages.

"I Love you honey! _*just not enough to let you have sex with me*_..."


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## noturtypicalwoman

MattMatt said:


> Really? Ya think? Not saying he will but if you think: "Hey, I can play mind games with hubby, as he'll never be able to get another woman" that's not fair of you, is it?:scratchhead:


Um woah, who says I'm playing mind games with him? Your comment was extremely uncalled for! I do NOT play mind games with my hasband and he DOES know I love him!


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## MattMatt

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Ok I'm beginning to see this was a huge mistake. Unless you know my husband personally, you have no place to tell me what he will and won't do. But Maricha did make one good point. I need to be more attuned to his "way of feeling loved."


Then this clearly is not the right place to ask this question? Unless the only answer you wanted was: "You husband needs to grow up! No one needs sex more than once a month!"

And that's not asking a question, that's seeking validation for a pre-determined viewpoint.


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## anchorwatch

Matt, give her a chance to absorb it all.


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## MattMatt

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Um woah, who says I'm playing mind games with him? Your comment was extremely uncalled for! I do NOT play mind games with my hasband and he DOES know I love him!


You presume your husband will not seek sex out of the marriage as you believe he is too 'lacking' (lacking in confidence) to do this. That, in my opinion, is, actually, a mind game, as you base how you treat your husband on this preconceived idea of how he will behave, given your understanding of his psychological make-up.


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## noturtypicalwoman

MattMatt said:


> Then this clearly is not the right place to ask this question? Unless the only answer you wanted was: "You husband needs to grow up! No one needs sex more than once a month!"
> 
> And that's not asking a question, that's seeking validation for a pre-determined viewpoint.


I came here for advice and support, not to be accused of maniupulating my husband and being a bad wife.


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## Enginerd

I think your making the classic mistake of assuming your husband should think like you - a woman. If he's healthy your husband will not be fulfilled as a man if he cannot have mutually enjoyable sex with his wife. If your rejecting him for whatever reason eventually his resentment will grow until he must take some action. He may not have the confidence or lack of character to cheat, but he will leave you emotionally. He will check out and begin to seek attention elsewhere if he's still alive. You sound very unimpressed with him and I would imagine that can't help with your desire. If he needs to "man up" then you should tell him so. How would you react if he withdrew from you on every level? Remember,it's the quiet guys who go ape **** crazy when they've had enough.


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## MattMatt

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I came here for advice and support, not to be accused of maniupulating my husband and being a bad wife.


You are not a bad wife! But you do need to examine how you interact with your husband. And see if there's a way you can accommodate his sex drive. 

Read the book that's been suggested, perhaps think about couples counselling.


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## WorkingOnMe

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Ok I'm beginning to see this was a huge mistake. Unless you know my husband personally, you have no place to tell me what he will and won't do. But Maricha did make one good point. I need to be more attuned to his "way of feeling loved."


I think this is important. For many (most?) men sex is the way we feel love and the way we express love. So if he is not getting sex, even though you "say" you love him he won't feel it and certainly won't know it. Rather, he will begin to doubt it. You know the saying "actions speak louder than words"? When it comes to feeling loved, sex is about the only action. And no amount of other action or words will convince him.


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## missmolly

Don't make the mistake of believing that your husband is 'not the type to stray' . I believed that about my husband, with every fibre of my being, and I was WRONG. 
I get where you're coming from with his technique though - that would turn me off. It seems that the problem is that he does not put enough effort into seducing you in a way that makes you desire him physically. Not sure what I'd do about that but there's sure to be some good books on the topic. Does he like to read?


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## noturtypicalwoman

Thank you Working, for putting this into perspective for me without insulting me. That means a lot!


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## Holland

noturtypicalwoman said:


> ........002 though.
> Here's the "problem." *My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, *and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. *I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.*.......
> 
> Anyone?


This is not a competition of who is right about what is the most important thing in marriage, but if you treat it that way you are both going to be losers.

He will lose sex, you will lose trust, respect and loyalty.

IMHO a ggood, healthy and strong marriage has sex as one of it's major foundations along with trust, respect and loyalty.

Take it from a sexless marriage survivor, if you take sex (which really is about connection and intimacy) away from him, you won't be married for long.

And what is not to like about sex? Maybe this needs to be addressed.


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## noturtypicalwoman

missmolly said:


> Don't make the mistake of believing that your husband is 'not the type to stray' . I believed that about my husband, with every fibre of my being, and I was WRONG.
> I get where you're coming from with his technique though - that would turn me off. It seems that the problem is that he does not put enough effort into seducing you in a way that makes you desire him physically. Not sure what I'd do about that but there's sure to be some good books on the topic. Does he like to read?


He does, usually online. He's told me he doesn't have the patience to read an actual book lol, I dunno. Anyway, any sites you can suggest I show him?


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## WorkingOnMe

My suggestion is to buy (or better yet, download on Kindle) "Married Man Sex Life Primer". It's a book about much much more than sex. It's all about male/female relationships and it's a really easy read. I suggest that you read it first (you'll learn a lot) and then give it to him as a gift for him to read.


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## missmolly

Just an aside here - I find the concept of being 'asked' for sex quite weird. Neither of my two husbands, or previous and in between BF's have ever done that. Sex has always just happened.
I think I would find asking a put off, always. Does that make me weird?


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## Enginerd

You're very easily insulted.


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## WorkingOnMe

Sex, trust, respect, loyalty.

These things are all intertwined. Women tend to only want sex from men they trust and respect. Loyalty can be short lived without sex. Respect "follows" trust and sex follows respect. None of them live in a vacuum. To say than any one of them is unimportant is a mistake for sure.


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## missmolly

WorkingOnMe said:


> My suggestion is to buy (or better yet, download on Kindle) "Married Man Sex Life Primer". It's a book about much much more than sex. It's all about male/female relationships and it's a really easy read. I suggest that you read it first (you'll learn a lot) and then give it to him as a gift for him to read.


:iagree:

I read it first when I bought it, just to be sure that it would be helpful to our situation. Some aspects I wasn't too sure about but all in all I think that it is a really good book. It's also very easy to read and has a lot of 'laugh out loud' lines in it.


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## WorkingOnMe

missmolly said:


> Just an aside here - I find the concept of being 'asked' for sex quite weird. Neither of my two husbands, or previous and in between BF's have ever done that. Sex has always just happened.
> I think I would find asking a put off, always. Does that make me weird?


Agree 100%. I never ask. My wife thinks asking is the appropriate way to initiate. So she'll say "you wanna get busy?" I find the very question to be a turn off. I told her that for the 100th time a couple days ago. She said well how am I supposed to initiate then, I'm never sure if you'll want to or not. So I said hey, just go down there and start....I won't stop you. I only stop you when you come right out and ask that way because it makes me feel uncomfortable.


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## Holland

missmolly said:


> Just an aside here - I find the concept of being 'asked' for sex quite weird. Neither of my two husbands, or previous and in between BF's have ever done that. Sex has always just happened.
> I think I would find asking a put off, always. Does that make me weird?


No not weird, I think that not having to ask is healthy. With my SO sex just happens, it is almost a given. It is a new relationship but I will do everything I can to keep it that way.

I know we are going to have dinner or whatever it is we are doing and then I know we are going to have sex, brilliant way to live


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## missmolly

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sex, trust, respect, loyalty.
> 
> These things are all intertwined. Women tend to only want sex from men they trust and respect. Loyalty can be short lived without sex. Respect "follows" trust and sex follows respect. None of them live in a vacuum. To say than any one of them is unimportant is a mistake for sure.


I want to like this twice
I have printed this out - thanks WOM.


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## missmolly

we will occasionally ask each other NOT to have sex


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## noturtypicalwoman

Thanks for the suggestion, Working. I will find that book. But, I still don't agree with something. It's not that I want sex from someone else and it's not that I don't love, respect and trust him. If I could want sex as much as he does, I would. But I'm just not built that way. To me sex is physical, not emotional, so it isn't as important. And before everyone jumps on that, no I have never been sexually violated in any way. That's just how I see it. 
And Enginerd, excuse me for being human....


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## Enginerd

Be human with him and tell him that sex is merely a physical act that you can do without. He might get insulted.


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## bandit.45

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I never said his needs are not important. He gets intamacy and attention and appreciation.. all without sex. I was never 'poo-poohing" his needs, I was merely wondering why sex specifically was so important when he knows I love him.


This is how a woman feels loved by her husband. When he tells her he loves her and meets her emotional needs.

This is not how a man feels loved by his wife. Men feel loved by their wives when their wives have sex with them.

The problem here is you lack an understanding of basic human physiology and psychology. Your husband apparently lacks an understanding of emotional intimacy. 

You both need to educate yourselves or your marriage will not last.


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## WorkingOnMe

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, Working. I will find that book. But, I still don't agree with something. It's not that I want sex from someone else and it's not that I don't love, respect and trust him. If I could want sex as much as he does, I would. But I'm just not built that way. To me sex is physical, not emotional, so it isn't as important. And before everyone jumps on that, no I have never been sexually violated in any way. That's just how I see it.
> And Enginerd, excuse me for being human....


Read the book. Things will start making more sense. I was in a low sex marriage and thought my wife just didn't have a desire for sex. One of the first things I realized was that she was just low desire "for me". Given the right man and the right behaviors, all of a sudden the desire comes flooding back. There are countless stories on this website about wives who were low desire and then started cheating and did all kinds of freaky things with their affair partner. You yourself were into sex in a big way at the beginning, right?

Just remember, just because you think sex is physical for you and not emotional, doesn't mean it is to him. By the way, even though you say it's physical and not emotional, I don't believe that for one second. If sex carried with it no emotions then you would not be so offended at the idea that he could cheat. It's clearly an emotionally charged issue for you. And be very careful, saying that it's just physical has been used as an excuse for cheating for eons.


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## noturtypicalwoman

Now that was the way to say it, not by resorting to insults, thank you Bandit for talking to me like I'm a human! I will take what you said into consideration and I will read the book suggested in this post


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## anchorwatch

I see that you've found out you touched on one of the hottest subjects on the site. lol

Here's another read for you. His Needs Her Needs

And do take the  The 5 Love Languages® quiz


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## southbound

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?


You sound somewhat like my x wife. I wouldn't know how to solve your issue; I didn't solve mine, but for someone who's been there, i can say this: I think sex is an important thing to most men; it's how we feel loved just the same as other things may cause the wife to feel loved. My wife's low drive caused me to think, "what is wrong with me?" "Am I that unattractive?" "Why does my wife not want to have sex with me?" I had to go through the day with a burning desire, like wanting a cool glass of water after a day in the dessert, while my wife just coasted along with no desire. It was confusing.

Someone made a comment in another thread something like this: Some people look at sex as a treat, like chocolate ice cream, instead of a vital part of marriage. I think my x wife looked at it as ice cream.

As a man, I couldn't understand how to be with someone you love each day but not want to make love on some kind of regular basis. My wife kinda played the "dirty-pig" card too. I was just a pig for wanting sex all the time, and she was the normal one, so, that was enough for her; there was nothing to work out. Her needs were somehow more normal than wanting sex to feel loved. 

I have no solution to your issue, but just thought i would share my thoughts with my experience. I think it is something that will have to be worked out in some form or fashion or it could be real trouble for the marriage. 

i think trust, respect, and loyalty are super important in a marriage too, but i can share that and expect it from other people in my life as well. Making love is the one thing that I wanted only with her. 

I don't think your husband's verbal responses are good at all, but he's probably frustrated beyond measure. I'm not saying it's your fault, I've learned that. He may be doing things, such as his verbal outbursts, that are turning you off, but i don't think either of you will be happy if it continues like this.


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## noturtypicalwoman

It seems that I have LOL. I will definitely give that article a read and take the quiz, thanks!


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## bandit.45

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Now that was the way to say it, not by resorting to insults, thank you Bandit for talking to me like I'm a human! I will take what you said into consideration and I will read the book suggested in this post


Look they dont teach us this stuff in grade school. Our parents were clueless. 

But seriously... you have to look at this as a very serious threat to your marriage. If you and hubby cannot get on the same page the two of you are heading for trouble. All the books the others have listed are good ones.

Get crackin'.


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## noturtypicalwoman

southbound said:


> You sound somewhat like my x wife. I wouldn't know how to solve your issue; I didn't solve mine, but for someone who's been there, i can say this: I think sex is an important thing to most men; it's how we feel loved just the same as other things may cause the wife to feel loved. My wife's low drive caused me to think, "what is wrong with me?" "Am I that unattractive?" "Why does my wife not want to have sex with me?" I had to go through the day with a burning desire, like wanting a cool glass of water after a day in the dessert, while my wife just coasted along with no desire. It was confusing.
> 
> Someone made a comment in another thread something like this: Some people look at sex as a treat, like chocolate ice cream, instead of a vital part of marriage. I think my x wife looked at it as ice cream.
> 
> As a man, I couldn't understand how to be with someone you love each day but not want to make love on some kind of regular basis. My wife kinda played the "dirty-pig" card too. I was just a pig for wanting sex all the time, and she was the normal one, so, that was enough for her; there was nothing to work out. Her needs were somehow more normal than wanting sex to feel loved.
> 
> I have no solution to your issue, but just thought i would share my thoughts with my experience. I think it is something that will have to be worked out in some form or fashion or it could be real trouble for the marriage.
> 
> i think trust, respect, and loyalty are super important in a marriage too, but i can share that and expect it from other people in my life as well. Making love is the one thing that I wanted only with her.
> 
> I don't think your husband's verbal responses are good at all, but he's probably frustrated beyond measure. I'm not saying it's your fault, I've learned that. He may be doing things, such as his verbal outbursts, that are turning you off, but i don't think either of you will be happy if it continues like this.


Thank you for your support, southbound. It eases me to know I'm not an entirely alone in this and I'm not the only woman who has ever had these thoughts. I am sorry your ex-wife and you could not work things out, but I am determined to work things out with my husband.


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## Numb in Ohio

When my H and I first got together, we had sex A LOT!! 

A couple years down the road, I slowed down on it.. he groped, planned, gave massages, begged, and either I just stuck with the 'no',, or gave him a "for him", in and done. 

This built up resentment on my part, and his. 

And not as an insult to you knowing your H, but everyone on this forum thought they "knew" their spouse, and that they wouldn't stray.... yet here we are.
Counseling for us brought out some underlying issues to our problems..and our thoughts about sex and intimacy. 

Women attach emotionally, men attach physically.. I think it's just our human nature..

I do hope you read some books , and look into MC. 
I also hope you can fix your issues before they spiral, and build up resentment. 

Best of luck...


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## noturtypicalwoman

Thank you Numb, that was very nice to say and very encouraging. I am definitely going to try my hardest to make this work!


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## Emerald

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?


If you read through some of the threads here you will see many posts about different sexual "desires."

Do you consider yourself "low desire?" 

How often do you have sex with your husband & more importantly, how often do you "desire" sex?

Do you think you desired sex more (every day) in the beginning of your relationship because it was new & exciting?


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## ladybird

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I was referring to his nagging for sex. And as I said before, believe what you want, but he is not the type to stray.


 There is never really a "type" that strays, it can happen. 

Say you take someone who is not getting their needs met from their spouse, they met someone who is more then willing to meet the needs that are not being met at home. It may not happen the first time or the second time, but chances are it will happen eventually. It is playing with fire and when you play with fire, you will get burned.

For some people sex isn't on the top of the to do list. It is pretty high on mine. 

You are not meeting one of your husband needs, It will cause a entire sting of things like resentment and bitterness and so on.

I could write a book on it. Just because you think it is childish and silly it isn't. It is pretty serious!


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## uhaul4mybaggage

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I came here for advice and support, not to be accused of maniupulating my husband and being a bad wife.


I was doing what you are doing. I was a bad wife. I didn't know it. Now I'm not a wife at all. 

You are getting advice. It's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true. They are different beasts than us. And if you don't sex em, they feel you don't love em. Hence my earlier advice. 

And my H was very quiet, a good man, I think, from the start. and I NEVER thought he'd go outside for it. But people do change, and being unhappy in a primal way will change you. If you don't want that, do something now. But once a month is not much.


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## ladybird

Male sex drive

The average male is more interested in sex than the average female.
It can be enormously difficult for women to understand just how powerful the average man's sex drive is.
Although males vary a lot on how keen on sex they are, the average man does tend to be much more 'driven' sexually than the average women is. (This applies to gay men as well as to straight guys – but in fact this article just deals with heterosexual males.)
In 2005, one of Britain's top sex experts told the media that in general, men are on a 'five day cycle' where sex is concerned (ie wanting to make love every five days) – whereas women are more likely to be on a '10 day cycle'. There may be some truth in this.
But it's also true to say that plenty of males – particularly young and virile ones – would really like to have sex every day – and maybe more often than that.
Indeed, in the era of anti-impotence drugs we have actually seen middle-aged men who have been using these medicines to have sexual encounters with three different women in a single afternoon. This is pretty crazy behaviour, but it does offer an insight into male sexuality…
Nature's programming
One of the reasons why the human race has survived for hundreds of thousands of years is the fact that nature has 'programmed' men to be mad keen on penetrating women – and getting sperm into them.
That may not sound very nice, but it's the truth. The primary sexual objective of a human male is to get his penis inside a woman – and to discharge his sperm into her.
And even though many guys succeed in being faithful to their partners, the scientific truth is that males are really 'programmed' to inseminate as many attractive females as possible.
So the fact of the matter is that the human race has survived in the main because primitive men went round fertilising a lot of women – thus ensuring the continuance of the species.
Your man today
But let's bring it up to date. What about your man today?
Well, it should be the case that recent centuries of civilisation have had an effect on him – so that he does not try to impregnate every nice-looking woman he meets.
Nonetheless, the following are fairly safe assumptions:
your man is very keen on sex
he thinks about it a lot – much more often than you do
however romantic and gentle he may be, deep down one of his major objectives in life is to get his penis inside you
and once it's in there, he has a deep, driving 'biological imperative' to reach a climax – and ejaculate into you.
Oral and rectal sex
So ingrained is this instinct to impregnate a woman that many men appear keen to accept any available female orifice – even if it's not the vagina.
That's why a very high proportion of men desire oral sex and a substantial minority (and it does still appear to be a minority) are keen on anal sex.
Conclusion
So, the average male is more interested in sex than the average female and is much more likely to:
feel very strong urges to have intercourse
take sexual risks, regardless of the consequences
be unfaithful
try 'commercial' (ie paid for) sex
feel extremely unhappy and disaffected with life if he is not having regular sex with a partner
feel desolate if a woman he loves rejects his sexual advances.
And the average man tends to be more swiftly aroused than the average woman.
Indeed, the slightest thing can set a man off – for instance:
the sight of a woman's cleavage
noticing a woman's bottom which has a shape that appeals to him
seeing a good pair of legs
getting even a whiff of perfume.
Of course, we are not suggesting that the average man acts on these arousal triggers whenever they happen.
But it can help women to understand their men if they are aware of just how driven males can be where sex is concerned.

Men's sexual response


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## Plan 9 from OS

OP, as others have mentioned, men feel the loving bond with their wives through sex. Not only is this true for men but I also think a lot more women think of sex as the love language within their marriage too. But I'm honestly surprised that no one has asked the question yet, so I will.

How frequently do the two of you have sex? You're getting a lot of advice - and good advice at that - but it won't truly hit home until we can put your issue into context. If your husband wants sex daily and you think that it's OK to have sex every other day or 1 out of 3 days then I would say that your husband should dial back his expectations a little. However, if you think your husband should be content to have sex only 1 time a month or less, then I would day that this is a serious problem and you need to find a much better compromise. Would you mind putting this into context for us?


----------



## southbound

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Thank you for your support, southbound. It eases me to know I'm not an entirely alone in this and I'm not the only woman who has ever had these thoughts. I am sorry your ex-wife and you could not work things out, but I am determined to work things out with my husband.


No, you are not the only woman like this. I know how it feels to wonder if you are the only person who thinks a certain way, behaves a certain way, or is the only one experiencing a particular situation. I came here looking for answers, and have found some insight to my situation. 

If you are determined to make it work, that is a great attitude. That is an attitude i wish my x wife had had. Like i said, I don't have an answer. Both will have to search within yourself and determine what is the real issue. I don't think it's just a matter of you trying to figure out how to have more sexual desire while your husband does nothing to change. Your husband may need to work on himself and make some much needed changes, which may make him happier with himself. And who knows, some positive changes in him could spark something inside you that you thought was all but gone. "Plan 9 from Os" made some good points in the above post too.

I didn't mean to ramble, but when i hear of situations that were similar to mine, I just think that my story and thoughts might help in some way.


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## noturtypicalwoman

Wow, very informative information. Thank you!


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## noturtypicalwoman

I think that's getting a bit personal for open forum. Feel free to pm me any private questions you may have. For now though, I am going to do some reading. Good night.



Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, as others have mentioned, men feel the loving bond with their wives through sex. Not only is this true for men but I also think a lot more women think of sex as the love language within their marriage too. But I'm honestly surprised that no one has asked the question yet, so I will.
> 
> How frequently do the two of you have sex? You're getting a lot of advice - and good advice at that - but it won't truly hit home until we can put your issue into context. If your husband wants sex daily and you think that it's OK to have sex every other day or 1 out of 3 days then I would say that your husband should dial back his expectations a little. However, if you think your husband should be content to have sex only 1 time a month or less, then I would day that this is a serious problem and you need to find a much better compromise. Would you mind putting this into context for us?


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## uhaul4mybaggage

I have sex 5 times a day and can't wait till I get a partner! 

Just kiddin. 
Well, maybe mentally.


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## Plan 9 from OS

> Originally Posted by Plan 9 from OS View Post
> OP, as others have mentioned, men feel the loving bond with their wives through sex. Not only is this true for men but I also think a lot more women think of sex as the love language within their marriage too. But I'm honestly surprised that no one has asked the question yet, so I will.
> 
> How frequently do the two of you have sex? You're getting a lot of advice - and good advice at that - but it won't truly hit home until we can put your issue into context. If your husband wants sex daily and you think that it's OK to have sex every other day or 1 out of 3 days then I would say that your husband should dial back his expectations a little. However, if you think your husband should be content to have sex only 1 time a month or less, then I would day that this is a serious problem and you need to find a much better compromise. Would you mind putting this into context for us?





noturtypicalwoman said:


> I think that's getting a bit personal for open forum. Feel free to pm me any private questions you may have. For now though, I am going to do some reading. Good night.


If you don't want to share more info about your situation, then that's fine. I don't have to know the answer. But unless you feel that others will lurk on here and trace your username back to you, I wouldn't let an open forum dissuade you from sharing your situation. It's an open forum but an anonymous one too. My mom and dad didn't name me "Plan 9" and I don't sign my name as Mr "From OS", if you get what I mean (lol, sometimes I crack myself up). 

My only concern is that people will sometimes give advice on situations where there isn't enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions. Before I weigh in on situations, I try to get background info if I can. No sweat if you want to give it but the advice you get may not be 100% applicable if important details are left out. JMHO. Good luck with it all.


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## SunnyT

I hear alot of men say, " As a man, I need sex to feel loved." 

Well, I don't know why more women don't say it... but as a woman, I need sex to feel loved. I know with my ex, and a lack of sex (once a week... which equals a lack of sex to me) it made me feel like "what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me?" 

I can be fine without sex, but I can't understand why my husband wouldn't WANT me. Now, current H.... alot of WANT, alot of sex.... both of us are HAPPY!

I just don't think it's just me. I REALLY don't understand why "women want less sex" as the years go by.


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## unbelievable

If you were incapacitated and unable to feed yourself should your husband feed you when you're hungry or only when he happens to feel hunger himself? It really doesn't matter that you understand why your husband desires sex with you. You know that he does but you choose to refuse, placing your needs above his. I don't give a fig for my wife's flower garden or for most of her crafts or shopping trips. If she's important to me, though, I'll make her needs important to me. Her needs aren't the same as mine but that doesn't mean her's are less important or that she needs to grow up or change. When you married your husband, he agreed to not have sex with other women. The implied agreement is that you will attend to his reasonable sexual needs and that he will attend to your's (and not only when you happen to feel like it). If it's not your place to meet his physical needs, who would you like to delegate those duties to? Maybe your Libido's in the basement today but these things change. If you were burning with desire and he didn't feel just naturally inclined, would you prefer that he take care of his wife as he promised or would you prefer that he tell you to grow up? I'm sure he doesn't enjoy turning to a cold wife for sex. Rejection isn't fun. If he had access to a pill that would chemically castrate himself, I expect he would eagerly eat them like M&Ms. The guy who annoys you so much because he wants to demonstrate his love for you will statistically end up under ground years ahead of you. You will have loads of time to look out for #1.


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## krismimo

I agree Sunny I just don't get it...


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## missmolly

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I think that's getting a bit personal for open forum. Feel free to pm me any private questions you may have. For now though, I am going to do some reading. Good night.


This is an anonymous forum - none of us know each other.


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## southbound

SunnyT said:


> I hear alot of men say, " As a man, I need sex to feel loved."
> 
> Well, I don't know why more women don't say it... but as a woman, I need sex to feel loved. I know with my ex, and a lack of sex (once a week... which equals a lack of sex to me) it made me feel like "what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me?"
> 
> I can be fine without sex, but I can't understand why my husband wouldn't WANT me. Now, current H.... alot of WANT, alot of sex.... both of us are HAPPY!
> 
> I just don't think it's just me. I REALLY don't understand why "women want less sex" as the years go by.


After coming here, I realize there are many issues, but i can't relate to them or understand it either. I was married to my x wife for 18 years, and my desire to have sex with her wasn't a bit less than it was the day we married. I never voiced one single complaint about her appearance, because i didn't have any. I gave back massages, rubbed feet, told her she was beautiful, you name it. I don't think there is a sexual fantasy she could have mentioned that I wouldn't have tried. I think she had no doubt that I thought she was a beautiful woman and that i desired her, but that apparently didn't register with her. Shouldn't that have counted for something?


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## SunnyT

Sorry to hear that Southbound.... but I totally know what you mean, only from the other side of the aisle. It SHOULD count. 

And someone said it well.... he promised to foresake all others, what more could you want from someone? And doesn't that mean that you will provide all the "saking"???? And why wouldn't you? Sometimes we are deep and loving, sometimes gutteral/animal, and sometimes best friends just having fun "going at it".... THIS makes both of us feel loved, wanted, desired, appreciated, happy, loving, and more.... 

If there is problem for one spouse in the marriage, then the marriage has problems. Too bad the other spouse doesn't always get that.


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## Numb in Ohio

southbound said:


> After coming here, I realize there are many issues, but i can't relate to them or understand it either. I was married to my x wife for 18 years, and my desire to have sex with her wasn't a bit less than it was the day we married. I never voiced one single complaint about her appearance, because i didn't have any. I gave back massages, rubbed feet, told her she was beautiful, you name it. I don't think there is a sexual fantasy she could have mentioned that I wouldn't have tried. I think she had no doubt that I thought she was a beautiful woman and that i desired her, but that apparently didn't register with her. Shouldn't that have counted for something?


 Yes, that should count for something... So I assume she didn't reciprocate?


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## southbound

Numb in Ohio said:


> Yes, that should count for something... So I assume she didn't reciprocate?


Not overall. I think she just saw it all as me being a sex nut. The strange part to me is that she had low self-esteem about her looks when we first met, even though she was beautiful. One would think that having a guy who desired her would be a plus, but i guess not.


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## Numb in Ohio

southbound said:


> Not overall. I think she just saw it all as me being a sex nut. The strange part to me is that she had low self-esteem about her looks when we first met, even though she was beautiful. One would think that having a guy who desired her would be a plus, but i guess not.


This is not reading into your situation at all. 

This scenario made me think of my H ,, Whenever he gave me a back rub or massage,, it was always supposed to lead to sex,, never "just because".. maybe this lead to me pulling away from him.. because I did see him as just wanting sex. If he knew he wasn't getting sex, I didn't get a back rub, or any attention at all. He would roll over and move over to not even touch me in the bed.

I couldn't get a hug without him "groping". I couldn't walk past him without a grab out..

This led to resentment on both sides, so I think I purposely denied him to see if he loved me for me... not sex...He failed the test.... Was this fair of me to do? I don't know.

I tried to avoid him,, I sometimes would make excuses to not go to bed, until I knew he was pretty much asleep.. I know this was awful, but...

And yes, I'm insecure about my looks too... I don't consider myself pretty, yet H would say I was beautiful...


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## Holland

SunnyT said:


> I hear alot of men say, " As a man, I need sex to feel loved."
> 
> Well, I don't know why more women don't say it... but as a woman, I need sex to feel loved. I know with my ex, and a lack of sex (once a week... which equals a lack of sex to me) it made me feel like "what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me?"
> 
> I can be fine without sex, but I can't understand why my husband wouldn't WANT me. Now, current H.... alot of WANT, alot of sex.... both of us are HAPPY!
> 
> I just don't think it's just me. I REALLY don't understand why "women want less sex" as the years go by.


I agree with you Sunny. Men do not have a monopoly on wanting sex to feel loved but they do tend to vocalise it more.

The biggest problem is that people are pairing up with the wrong partners and we are not taught about sex drive issues before marriage. I sure will be talking to my kids about it when they are older.


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## southbound

Holland said:


> The biggest problem is that people are pairing up with the wrong partners and we are not taught about sex drive issues before marriage. I sure will be talking to my kids about it when they are older.


True. Of all the things I may have thought about concerning sex when I was younger, I never once thought about "sex-drive." I was naive enough to assume everybody liked sex.


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## Hicks

Your man will feel loved through sex. That's the frequency he receives love in.

All the other signals you are sending are are not received, since you are transmitting the wrong frequency.

It's not a healthy practice in a marriage to question your partner's needs. Especially using your own needs as the lens... Since every person has different needs.

Sex is a huge deal to your husband. You have to accept that on faith. And you have to gain satisfaction in life by defining yourself as a great wife who meets the needs of her husband. In other words, the reward is not the "sexual connection" to you, the reward is the satisfaction you gain from making your husband's life great.

This is not a one way street in that he also needs to understand your Love Language, since clearly it is not sexual, and meet that.


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## Jellybeans

The bottom line: you see nothing wrong with hardly having sex and he does.

This will create massive problems. Mark my words.


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## Chris Taylor

No one doubts you love your husband, but consider this...

If he told you he loved you, then sat on the couch all day unemployed, would you consider that showing his love for you?

If he told you he loved you and spent every waking hour working on his hobbies and ignoring you, would you call that love?

If he told you he loved you, then wasted his money on things and couldn't pay the bills, would you call that love?

If he said he loved you, then beat you and the kids, would you call that love?

Saying "I love you" is merely words if there are no actions to back them up (or if actions differ from showing love).


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## Jellybeans

Great points, ChrisTaylor.

To flip this: If you told him something he does or does not do bothers you greatly and makes you feel *unloved*, and he continued to do the very thing that you told him makes you feel un loved--how would you feel? 

Because that is ultimately what this comes down to.


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## unbelievable

If I said I loved someone but I not only ignored but ridiculed their basic physical needs, I'd be a damned liar.


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## Jellybeans

unbelievable said:


> If I said I loved someone but I not only ignored but ridiculed their basic physical needs, I'd be a damned liar.


The absolute truth.

Someone put this on a posterboard!


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## southbound

Numb in Ohio said:


> This is not reading into your situation at all.
> 
> This scenario made me think of my H ,, Whenever he gave me a back rub or massage,, it was always supposed to lead to sex,, never "just because".. maybe this lead to me pulling away from him.. because I did see him as just wanting sex. If he knew he wasn't getting sex, I didn't get a back rub, or any attention at all. He would roll over and move over to not even touch me in the bed.
> 
> I couldn't get a hug without him "groping". I couldn't walk past him without a grab out..
> 
> This led to resentment on both sides, so I think I purposely denied him to see if he loved me for me... not sex...He failed the test.... Was this fair of me to do? I don't know.
> 
> I tried to avoid him,, I sometimes would make excuses to not go to bed, until I knew he was pretty much asleep.. I know this was awful, but...
> 
> And yes, I'm insecure about my looks too... I don't consider myself pretty, yet H would say I was beautiful...


I guess that's how my wife was too. I never understood, because all i had was just for her. She was the only one i felt that way about, but that didn't make her feel any more special apparently. I always thought, "what's wrong with a husband desiring his wife?" Why is that such a turn off. If I had been flirting with other women and such, I can see where she might think i was just a sex pig, but it was all for her.

It's been said before, but men are more visual. A woman just doesn't realize how many little things she does during the day that may push a button in her husband, and I guess it's not that way with women so much. For example, I remember we were in town once and she decided she wanted a pedicure. Well, going into a nail salon isn't exactly a guy thing, but I went in anyway. She's sitting there with her jeans rolled to her knees and feet in the water. i can't remember if something was ticklish or what, but suddenly she springs her foot out of the water and lets out a little screech. She keeps her leg extended in the air a few seconds with water dripping before easing it back in. I'm thinking, "You are so beautiful. That was so adorably sexy." I'm sure that sounds crazy to most women, but when a guy loves a woman, sometimes seemingly small things can push a button.


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## Ten_year_hubby

noturtypicalwoman said:


> In fact, sex is not important to me at all.


Too bad. A lot of women feel this way, my wife included. I respected her feelings, even felt sorry for her (still do) and we went right down the same road that the other couples with non-participants have described in this thread. 

One day we got into a major big-time disagreement. She was so upset over my feelings, she figured she would file for divorce and get me to capitulate since anyone with a brain can see that the family court system is biased against men. Child support, alimony, child custody, retirement accounts, the man is always at a loss in family court. So when I said "Sure babe, here's my offer, let's sign the papers right now. The sooner you're out of here, the faster I get someone else", this wasn't exactly what she expected. She thought she would get her way and instead she found herself one signature away from a miserable life on the poverty line.

The point here is that I wouldn't throw out my wife, the mother of my kids, just because sex wasn't important to her. But if she wants to go and take her attitudes towards sex with her, I won't have a problem showing her the door. I wouldn't suppose you want this kind of relationship, I know I don't and I hope any other women reading this don't want their husbands feeling this way about them. On the other hand, if it's not important, it's not important. You can probably move in with a girl friend or a gay guy


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

southbound said:


> she had low self-esteem


This is a primary driver (or anti-driver in this case) here. If someone has pathologically damaged self esteem from childhood or early adult experiences, marital love on it's own will not be enough to overcome the dysfunction. Current estimates indicate that 25-33% of American women were sexually abused at some point in their childhood. This has to play out badly in their adulthood.


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## 45188

I'm a woman and even I'll tell you sex is highly important - Especially for men. They use it to feel close emotionally. Who watches more porn? Men or women. MEN! Because sex is important. We are not the same. Mother Nature programmed us different biologically. Sex is VERY important to men. VERY. Important. You need to initiate more. You NEED to. He NEEDS you to. Men are borderline sex obsessed!

I rape mine every other day, even if I don't want to. It's part of the give / take of relationships.


----------



## WalterWhite

I think it comes right down to respect. If we respect the other, then we accept their needs, and we don't define for them what those needs should be. The latter would be disrespect.

The OP does not understand men, nor does she respect her man.

Perhaps he is going about his part wrong too, but if he has become a "nag" I would suspect she created much of that in him, by her lack of understanding of the opposite sex.

I would implore the OP to study up on what men need; to feel love, and respected, and valued, and once the OP does this, now there is a chance for joy to flourish in their marriage.

As to the question of whether the OP's husband is the "straying type".....this question is irrelevent because it does not matter. Either way, does the OP really feel ok with her NON-straying husband having feelings of not being loved IN THE WAY he wants?

Instead of arguing if he is the straying type, there is a more important question: "does he feel loved, and does she respect his need to be loved through sex?".

A woman that withholds from her man (barring medical reasons) is a bad wife. Sorry, but it is true.

The OP can either get pi$$ed at the last sentence, or she can take it as a wake up call. How she takes it determines the type of woman that she is.


----------



## Sara8

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?


I can see how his approach can be a huge turn off to you, even if you wanted sex every day. 

Are you sure he isn't cheating?

While in his affair, my STBEH started with this frequency issue, even though he would frequently rebuff me for sex, when I was interested. 

He seemed to be making an issue about an issue he created. He actually now admits he did this, since I have filed after his cheating, and he wants to work things out.

Prior to his affair (likely the contemplation phase) He became very unromantic about asking for sex, almost brutish. 

I was turned off and discussed why. He didn't seem to care.

In fact the rude way he approached escalated almost as if he wanted to annoy me. (he now admits this was true and has apologized.)

I even went so far as to make my own romance by cooking a gourmet dinner and lighting candles and playing soothing music and then initiating sex , he rebuffed me, saying the romance seemed silly. 

Soon after, He did meet a predatory women who fed his ego and offered easy sex. He says he wasn't looking for it but I don't agree.

Interestingly she did not have sex with her own husband, apparently she wasn't ever attracted to him and married him as a meal ticket. 

She also had prior affairs and seemed to enjoy the conquest of having a married man lust after her. 

She pursued him, and she pushed for sex. I think my husband liked the pursuit so he kept her at bay for as long as possible but was always interested in the affair. 

Would a few visits to a good marriage counselor help open discussion between you two?

Meanwhile put a var in his car and monitor his email and cell phone texts and calls. Have a PI follow him at lunch during work or if he goes out alone at night.

I was totally blindsided by my STBEH's cheating. It ruined my love for him and although he does not now want the divorce, I can never ever trust him again, due to the Long term affair he had with a low life woman.

That's sad too because he is now saying he desperately wants things to work out between us. 

All it would have taken was a little romancing before he decided to jump into an affair and we probably would have been okay. 

But now, I will never be able to trust him again. Too many lies.


----------



## sinnister

If you're not prepared to have a sexaul relationship with your husband you shouldnt be married. Sex is a part of marriage...your beliefs are wrong.


----------



## sinnister

kipani said:


> I'm a woman and even I'll tell you sex is highly important - Especially for men. They use it to feel close emotionally. Who watches more porn? Men or women. MEN! Because sex is important. We are not the same. Mother Nature programmed us different biologically. Sex is VERY important to men. VERY. Important. You need to initiate more. You NEED to. He NEEDS you to. Men are borderline sex obsessed!
> 
> I rape mine every other day, even if I don't want to. It's part of the give / take of relationships.


If nothing else listen to this post by Kipani. I could not have written better if I tried.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Bye the way, did the OP or another ld female share what they considered the appropriate way for their husband to ask or otherwise not nag for his needs?


----------



## Sara8

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Too bad. A lot of women feel this way, my wife included. I respected her feelings, even felt sorry for her (still do) and we went right down the same road that the other couples with non-participants have described in this thread.
> 
> One day we got into a major big-time disagreement. She was so upset over my feelings, she figured she would file for divorce and get me to capitulate since anyone with a brain can see that the family court system is biased against men. Child support, alimony, child custody, retirement accounts, the man is always at a loss in family court. So when I said "Sure babe, here's my offer, let's sign the papers right now. The sooner you're out of here, the faster I get someone else", this wasn't exactly what she expected. She thought she would get her way and instead she found herself one signature away from a miserable life on the poverty line.
> 
> The point here is that I wouldn't throw out my wife, the mother of my kids, just because sex wasn't important to her. But if she wants to go and take her attitudes towards sex with her, I won't have a problem showing her the door. I wouldn't suppose you want this kind of relationship, I know I don't and I hope any other women reading this don't want their husbands feeling this way about them. On the other hand, if it's not important, it's not important. You can probably move in with a girl friend or a gay guy


I find this post really interesting. 

A couple I know had a similar issue and the husband bullied the wife into sex by threatening divorce if she did not capitulate and have sex as often as he liked. 

Fast forward four years. He is 48 and gets erectile dysfunction (oh the karma bus) Viagra and cialis don't do the trick and he has negative reactions to them to boot. So he can't use them. 

The wife was so resentful that sex was important enough for him to bully her into it, that she totally withdrew from him after his ED diagnosis. 

She also started accruing lots of girlfriends and started doing the things she liked without him and then filed for divorce. And, yes, he had to pay her alimony and give her half of everything, and when it came out in court he threatened to divorce her for not wanting sex as often as he, the courts showed no mercy on him. 

There were plenty of witnesses to attest to his bullying the wife into sex more frequently 'cause he actually bragged about it to people and they were called to testify in court by her attorney. 

Ah ya' gotta' love that Karma bus.


----------



## Sara8

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Bye the way, did the OP or another ld female share what they considered the appropriate way for their husband to ask or otherwise not nag for his needs?


Low desire is not the same as being turned off by a husbands brutish approach to initiating sex more frequently. 

As I mentioned the OW in my husbands affair did not have sex with her husband but she was hot to trot with strange men.


----------



## Sara8

WalterWhite said:


> Instead of arguing if he is the straying type, there is a more important question: "does he feel loved, and does she respect his need to be loved through sex?".


So if this guy get's erectile dysfunction as so many men do, and he can't use cialis or viagra 'cause ya' know those drugs can kill a guy with heart disease....

...I guess then he will never be able to feel loved because he can't have sex. 

And, what if his wife feels unloved because he can't get it up, even if she attempts to jump him.

Just wondering?

Do you think you guys who are so insistent that sex is their love language and feel it is the best part of the marriage will be so kocksure when/if they get ED.

Words can come back and haunt ya' sometimes.


----------



## Sara8

SunnyT said:


> I just don't think it's just me. I REALLY don't understand why "women want less sex" as the years go by.


Maybe their man sucks in bed. 

As I said, the OW in my spouses affair just wanted some new stuff to get excited over. She was a serial cheater who never had sex with her spouse. 

Now that I have filed to divorce my cheating spouse, he wants to reconcile. 

He has even admitted that the OW was kinda' lousy and self absorbed in bed. Seeming to want to be serviced. She took more than she gave. 

Some men are the same way with their wives but generous with their affair partners. 

Go figure.


----------



## unbelievable

If I had ED, my mouth and my hands would still work. My wife would still be human and my vows would still be valid. We aren't talking about someone who is unable to meet their partner's need, but someone who knows about the need, is able to meet the need, but just simply would rather not. If my wife were paralyzed or severely mentally disabled, I would neither ask nor expect sexual intimacy. Again, that's not the situation the OP has handed us.


----------



## t_hopper_2012

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I was referring to his nagging for sex. And as I said before, believe what you want, but he is not the type to stray.


There is an interesting dynamic here that I don't think you are aware of, Noturtypical.

You have emphasized, repeatedly, that your husband is not the type to stray. What if he was? How would that change things? What if had other women flirting with him and what if he relished in that attention? Would you fight a little harder to keep him? Would you go the extra mile and amp up the sexual side of the marriage?

You have gotten prickly at people making assumptions and diagnosing your problems. Get ready. I am going to do it again. I think that you don't respect your husband. (Translation of: "he's too shy to stray" is "he's not all that much of a man"). You don't respect him as a man and this has had the affect of severely reducing your desire to have sex with him. I also think that you feel like you've got him right where you want him (after all, he's not going anywhere ... he's too shy). You'll give him as little sex as you feel like and you're just fine with that ... if he would just stop whining.

Now, based on the various stories I've read here at TAM, it seems like there is somebody who is likely to stray in your marriage: *you*. Do a little research here. You'll see over and over again where women who don't respect their husbands as men end up cheating when they find a stud that they do respect.

You say that you love your husband and that you want to work on your marriage? The first thing you might do is compare how you felt about him when you first met (and sex was daily) compared to now (you make him beg for sex). What things happened along the way for him to become so much less of a man in your eyes? What would it take for him to become more of a man in the relationship? How would that impact the relationship and, finally, is this something you want?


----------



## WalterWhite

Sara8 said:


> So if this guy get's erectile dysfunction as so many men do, and he can't use cialis or viagra 'cause ya' know those drugs can kill a guy with heart disease....
> 
> ...I guess then he will never be able to feel loved because he can't have sex.
> 
> And, what if his wife feels unloved because he can't get it up, even if she attempts to jump him.
> 
> Just wondering?
> 
> Do you think you guys who are so insistent that sex is their love language and feel it is the best part of the marriage will be so kocksure when/if they get ED.
> 
> Words can come back and haunt ya' sometimes.


There are many ways to be sexual without the aid of a stiff penis. There is sexual massage, caressings, and a kiss can be as electrifying as intercourse.

A man feels love through intercourse...but he can also feel it with touch, kisses, hugs, and a finger up his butt to stimulate his prostate...no erection required. Use your imagination...where there is love, there is often a way


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Sara8 said:


> So if this guy get's erectile dysfunction as so many men do, and he can't use cialis or viagra 'cause ya' know those drugs can kill a guy with heart disease....
> 
> ...I guess then he will never be able to feel loved because he can't have sex.
> 
> And, what if his wife feels unloved because he can't get it up, even if she attempts to jump him.
> 
> Just wondering?
> 
> Do you think you guys who are so insistent that sex is their love language and feel it is the best part of the marriage will be so kocksure when/if they get ED.
> 
> Words can come back and haunt ya' sometimes.


Huge difference between "can't" and "won't".


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Sara8 said:


> She also started accruing lots of girlfriends and started doing the things she liked without him and then filed for divorce. And, yes, he had to pay her alimony and give her half of everything, and when it came out in court he threatened to divorce her for not wanting sex as often as he, the courts showed no mercy on him.
> 
> Ah ya' gotta' love that Karma bus.


It's not clear exactly where the statute of limitations runs out on karmic action. Today's no fault divorce may be a fair deal to finally get rid of someone who doesn't want to be there in the first place. Fast forward 20 years, the guy has a new wife that understands loving him and his ex's has her friends to hold her hand in the doctor's office.


----------



## krismimo

I'am sorry but being a wife to a sick husband I'm so tired of hearing the ohh just touch caress if you havnt been through it it is not that easy... it REALLY is not. it is frustrating it is hard its an empty void that is hard to fill and what makes it more confusing is you love each other but you still have needs.


----------



## Sara8

Chris Taylor said:


> While we wait for other women to tell us guys what DOES work to get them to be more sexually inclined, I just want to address the above statement.
> 
> In my situation, the "brutish approach" came after long attempts to meet my wife's needs, needs she said had to be met for her to feel closer and be more willing to have sex. But after a while, when the "nice way" doesn't seem to work, the approach becomes more ragged.
> 
> You see other posts where the guy is grabbing his wife, feeling her up, grabbing her in bed, etc... but my guess is he's at that point (the "brutish approach" point) where nothing has worked in the past.
> 
> So when I argue with my wife and blurt out "well, just _when_ are you going to have sex with me?" isn't merely a "brutish approach" but an expression of exasperation.


Well, I can't be fly on the wall in your bedroom nor you in mine, so we will just have to take each other's word. 

Still, are you saying you could find no other way to get her interested?

I hear a backrub a lot, but massages definitely have a sexual connotation. 

Romance is in the head. 

Like I said, my husband was romancing the OW, so I know he had the capacity to understand what a women wants. 

I read the emails, saw the texts, they were all forwarded to me anonymously. 

I think the guys just start to take their wives for granted and EXPECT sexual gratification and when the wife's not interested they all balk.

I bet if you had a new romance it would be so exciting, like ALL NEW RELATIONSHIPS ARE, that all your brutish ways would suddenly disappear. 

I saw the romance happen with my STBEH and the OW. 

That's why he is soon to be ex. 

It's sad that he wants to reconcile, now. 

But ya' know what, I want some romance and there are plenty of romantic guys out their. 

My spouse used to often say: "I'm just not the romantic type."

I accepted that, but I never cheated. He did.

At first I was devastated, too. 

But ya' know what, I am starting to feel good about it because, now I can boot him and move on without one iota of guilt.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Sara8 said:


> So if this guy get's erectile dysfunction as so many men do, and he can't use cialis or viagra 'cause ya' know those drugs can kill a guy with heart disease....
> 
> ...I guess then he will never be able to feel loved because he can't have sex.
> 
> And, what if his wife feels unloved because he can't get it up, even if she attempts to jump him.
> 
> Just wondering?
> 
> Do you think you guys who are so insistent that sex is their love language and feel it is the best part of the marriage will be so kocksure when/if they get ED.
> 
> Words can come back and haunt ya' sometimes.


The biggest mistake people make when it comes to sex as seeing the penis and vagina as the primary components. Sex is SOOOOO much bigger and more varied than those two body parts. I could EASILY keep my wife satisfied if I couldn't get it up. Would she miss intercourse....hell yeah, but would it ruin our sex life....not even close!!! We'd still share our physicality and have sex like we always have. It might be more with hands, mouth and toys but it would still be sexual.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

WalterWhite said:


> There are many ways to be sexual without the aid of a stiff penis. There is sexual massage, caressings, and a kiss can be as electrifying as intercourse.
> 
> A man feels love through intercourse...but he can also feel it with touch, kisses, hugs, and a finger up his butt to stimulate his prostate...no erection required. Use your imagination...where there is love, there is often a way


Yes indeed. I don't think the OP represented herself as being open to anything like this. I took away that she didn't want to touch or be touched sexually. Maybe she can check back in and let us know


----------



## krismimo

True to an extent but then again.. god bless you guys because if you had to deal with illness for an extended period of time and I really hope you dont because more than likely you will change your tune.


----------



## WalterWhite

krismimo said:


> I'am sorry but being a wife to a sick husband I'm so tired of hearing the ohh just touch caress if you havnt been through it it is not that easy... it REALLY is not. it is frustrating it is hard its an empty void that is hard to fill and what makes it more confusing is you love each other but you still have needs.


Incorporate toys in your love making. Buy a lot of batteries. I know it's not the same as full blown natural, but it might be a good start.


----------



## WalterWhite

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes indeed. I don't think the OP represented herself as being open to anything like this. I took away that she didn't want to touch or be touched sexually. Maybe she can check back in and let us know


I was responding to Sara. Read better, buddy


----------



## sinnister

A whole bunch of hatin' going on by some ladies up in here.


----------



## krismimo

Ummmm thanks for the suggestion but no, been there done that just make things more frustrating and not to be rude you have no clue no you don't know. But I appreciate the suggestion.


----------



## Sara8

Ten_year_hubby said:


> It's not clear exactly where the statute of limitations runs out on karmic action. Today's no fault divorce may be a fair deal to get rid of someone that doesn't want to be there in the first place


So, your wife's low desire suggests she doesn't want to be there. 

Unless she has said that, it's likely not true, and as one counselor mentioned a person doesn't stop wanting sex for no reason. Either it's poor health or the hubby sucks in bed, or one of the other is cheating and has withdrawn emotionally and/or physically. 

So again, I ask, and every guy here seems to be avoiding this with a serious answer. 

If you get ED and can't have sex with your wife, does that mean it's okay for her to think you no longer love her and want out?

Emotional issues often cause low or no desire. 

Emotional issues can also be considered a physical issue because in case ya' don't know the brain is a part of the body, and if something in the brain is broken, it's a PHYSICAL ISSUE. 

One guy said he still can use his hands and other parts. Give me a break. I bet when he gets ED he will also have low desire. 

ED is caused by a lack or arterial and venous blood flow. It causes tiredness and tired people are not interested in sex. 

But argue all you want and talk to me after the old weeny turns into a rope. 

The I will ask you again, does a rope indicate you no longer love your wife?


----------



## krismimo

@not your typical. Good luck with reading and take it from me and others on here do not take each other for granted because that is the easiest thing to do.


----------



## Sara8

sinnister said:


> A whole bunch of hatin' going on by some ladies up in here.


Are you referring to me? 

If so, does a logical discussion equate to hate in your mind? That's insulting and condescending, IMO.

That's odd. I thought a logical discussion was just that, unless I am talking to a neanderthal, I always assume I am talking to someone who can handle logic.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Sara8 said:


> Low desire is not the same as being turned off by a husbands brutish approach to initiating sex more frequently.


I will openly challenge anyone in this thread to give me an approach to initiating that my wife would not find to be brutish. But this is her problem and she has to own it. If she's ok with being turned off, that's good enough for me because I'm definitely not turned off, especially not by her being turned off. And she is definitely turned off. I love her, I understand her and I feel for her, but I can't live her life for her.


----------



## Emerald

OP - You may have low sexual desire & there is nothing wrong with
that. Many men also have it - married to one & there are threads here from women about their partners. There is also nothing wrong that you have different values/ideas on what is most important in a marriage.

It appears that your husband may have a high sexual drive. As you know & are living it, this is a very difficult situation & that is why you came here - to get advice. It is a touchy subject as you can see from some of the replies here.

Because I am LD, I cannot provide you with any advice on trying to up your sexual desire - nothing has worked for me.

Maybe you will get some replies with ideas & suggestions for increasing your desire. I hope so.

If you cannot increase your sexual desire, then you will need to reach a "compromise" with your H. No different than any other compromises made in marriage.

Good luck OP.


----------



## A Bit Much

I've been following this thread, and I don't want to hijack, but I just had a thought...

Maybe LD is directly linked to likeability? Sex in your marriage is about more than just love, it's LIKING who you're loving too. So much so that you just want to jump their bones and do the nasty whenever possible!

I've loved and not liked, and when I felt that way sex was way down on the list of things to do. I viewed it as a chore and I'm an HD person.


----------



## Another Planet

To the OP, DO NOT be surprised when he leaves you or cheats on you! You have been warned by the majority here. Your relationship needs help and you need to accept that fact.

Good luck, and I wish you and yours a safe journey.


----------



## unbelievable

I have low desire to go to Bed, Bath, and Beyond, but my wife likes the place, so I go with her. I have low desire to go visit her parents, but I put on a happy face and go. When I got married, it was pretty clear to me that I was agreeing to place the needs of my wife, any prospective kids, and my marriage, above my own. The OP may well find herself with limited mobility, with her noodles scrambled. Her husband might have low desire to feed her and clean her poop and drool. If he's a decent husband, he will do what needs doing. A commitment to do only what one feels like only on the days one feels like doing it, is no commitment at all. I can buy a more durable commitment from any streetwalker for $50.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Sara8 said:


> So, your wife's low desire suggests she doesn't want to be there.
> 
> Unless she has said that, it's likely not true, and as one counselor mentioned a person doesn't stop wanting sex for no reason. Either it's poor health or the hubby sucks in bed, or one of the other is cheating and has withdrawn emotionally and/or physically.


My wife did say that a bunch of times over the years, but I think she may have been a little confused about what she wants. She has quit saying it over the last year, with one or two exceptions. She was here this morning and we'll pray she's here when I get home.


----------



## MattMatt

krismimo said:


> True to an extent but then again.. god bless you guys because if you had to deal with illness for an extended period of time and I really hope you dont because more than likely you will change your tune.


It's difficult, sometimes, but we just get on with it, don't we? In my marriage it's my wife who has the chronic illness.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

A Bit Much said:


> Maybe LD is directly linked to likeability? Sex in your marriage is about more than just love, it's LIKING who you're loving too.


Good point, maybe it's directly linked to liking oneself, seeing oneself as lovable, seeing oneself as deserving, seeing oneself as desirable


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## Emerald

I have HIGH desire to go to Bed Bath & Beyond


----------



## jaquen

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?


----------



## unbelievable

I don't suppose the OP entered into the relationship knowing her libido would fluctuate or diminish. Once one gets into the habit of justifying telling her partner "no", it's only logical that soon their partner's requests become insignificant, unreasonable, or aggravating. This is why we have values and commitments; to make us do that which is right even when we don't feel like it.


----------



## Holland

unbelievable said:


> If I said I loved someone but I not only ignored but ridiculed their basic physical needs, I'd be a damned liar.


I lived that dream, got the emotional scars to prove it. In the end I kicked his arse to the kerb.

OP you may feel ganged up on here but please listen to what everyone is saying. If this type of support forum was available to me many years ago I think my life would have been very different. Take the advice and use it wisely.


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## fetishwife

To the OP....

My wife said that horrible statement to me one day 3 years ago. At the time I was used to the concept of her not really liking sex that much. I let it pass and went on with life...we had sex about 6 times per month with her occasionally having an O...but mostly not. Oh I tried everything and would do anything.

anyway...

years go by and she gets this obsession with an actor (she has had many but this one became sexual where she started aggressively initiating sex with me after watching his movies with me).

However, when we started to fight about it...Im jealous....

She specifically said "sex is not an important part of my life"....she now denies saying that and says she MEANT to say "its not as important to me as it is to you...".

What I HEARD was this "making love with you is not an important part of my life...". That was more than I could stand to hear...that was it for me....something had to give....no way I was sticking around for that I needed to be the man and FIX the situation or LEAVE and find myself a new lady.

Now 6 months later...me running the MAP from MMSL Primer....me buying a condo and almost moving out....us going to IC/MC for months.....is that she has sexual issues that she is ashamed of and always found sex uncomfortable and that I did not help along the way by adding to her shame when I got mad about all this over the years when little bits of it came to my attention. 

When this came up again during our fight (which was over her sudden HIGH sexuality over her fantasy obsession with a movie star)... where suddenly sex WITH ME became a VERY important part of her life for a good number of weeks until I killed it with anger...during a very angry discussion she repeated that horrible phrase...not only that but in the same discussion she told me it took "all her willpower" to stop reading about her movie star and watching his movies....as I asked her to do that back at that time.

KINDA CONFUSING TO ME ABOUT THE SEX AND DESIRE STUFF! 

For 23 years MY DESIRE FOR HER HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME...or maybe even has increased! 

I am not shy to say that I cried all night after I heard that from her because I thought this was hopeless and half my life was gone...and told her I was going to have to leave her immediately. 

Now my crying all night she said got her super hot....go figure...and I got incredible sex that night ?mercy sex? I think not. 

This got the ball rolling and we have worked on it ever since. Now I think SEX is important to her because its important to ME and US. I could not understand the co concepts of .......

(1) Her being hot for a fantasy man

(2) Saying sex was not an important part of her life

(3) Saying she loved me and no other and had no desire for any other man now or ever....except the fantasy men of course...haha...cause they dont talk back...and are all 11+ on the good looking and alpha male scale....

(4) Saying she felt her life would not be worth living without me...she would kill herself if I left her....(she does not need my work or money or anything like that).

I could not GET IT. To me....without sex there could be no relationship...now she was NOT DENYING ME sex...but the IDEA that she did not want it or care about it to me was CLEAR evidence that she did not love me and was not attracted to me physically.

Now we have sex ALL THE TIME about every 2 days, daily on weekends. Sometimes she is into it, sometimes I know she is doing it for me/us...more than "for her"....rarely I can tell maybe she would rather say no, but does not....if Im aware I draw back...or just do it quick for her consideration also....luckily not too common...

She KNOWS I was deeply hurt and Im pretty "wimpy" on that side...I really feel that without her desire she is not "In Love" with me...so when you say "He knows I love him" you may be wrong.

The way I now KNOW that she is IN LOVE with me is

(1) She has tolerated months of my anger and threats to leave, ,me buying a condo, sleeping at a friends house some nights etc. AND SHE STILL IS HERE and still says she loves me and STILL HAS A LOT OF SEX WITH ME!!! I cant over emphasize how important that has been to me in believing her that she is in love with me! Without the frequent sex I would not believe her...Im sure.....

(2) She is willing to explore her sexual issues with me and let me talk to her about the things that do arouse her.

I dont know what it is like to be in your body. I can only guess what LD feels like. But I think you are no longer IN LOVE with this man of yours (but that is hopefully temporary if he can get his act together and get you hot again). 

I lift weights, lost 3 inches of waist and have visible (not six pack haha) abs, I shaved my head, I wear nice clothes and shoes. Im attractive to other women Im 100% sure.

He should do all this for you. He needs to read MMSL Primer.

I resent this all badly as I feel like I want my wife no matter what...age 45....I want her more than ever. When she was 15 pounds overweight (lost it again on medifast) I still wanted her. So I dont understand WHY she didnt want me....but I have some idea now that we are different.

But the ONE THING that makes me BELIEVE that she REALLY LOVES ME...IS THE SEX.

Sorry if that is tough for you to hear..but its an absolute 100% fact.

I can NOT be talked out of wanting sex. I have even thought I wished I had low T sometimes...no I dont really want that at all....but in the worst moments I wished that I had low drive.

Instead I told her I want 3x per day...(an exaggeration...but 1-2 daily would be nice)..and I get 3-5 per week vs her probably only on her own wanting 2-3 per month..not sure.

NOW things have changed so much though...she is generally a very unexpressive person (vs obviously me)...she would NEVER post here...she writes small text messages....short email...never in her life told her father she loved him...very distant relationship with cold father..she has some trouble being close to our 12 year old daughter..where my daughter and I are very very close.

So IF YOU ARE IN LOVE WITH HIM....something is OFF. He needs to man up..from what you write you SEEM not to respect him and SEEM not to think he would be attractive to other women..and you see him as a NON ALPHA male..(shy etc)..

My wife tells me now she is PROUD to bring me to parties and show me off...she tells me IM sexy and that I make her feel sexy.

All this is NEW and remember starting off from a similar place as you...

Although Im naturally not a "nice guy" and Im sometimes a rude, inconsiderate (forget her birthday some years...oops) person haha, Im well off and have my own business...

I threw her out of the house (verbally) when I found out how far her obsession had gone I was so jealous I saw it as an emotional affair...

..so maybe Im more naturally alpha/ass type vs your man. Not sure....but that thing she said...WOW that turned me into a baby/crying mass of destroyed flesh.


----------



## turnera

Has anyone recommended yet reading His Needs Her Needs?

It describes how to grow a healthy marriage. Where neither is being ignored, taken for granted, etc. Where BOTH of you are aware you have a duty to take care of your marriage. Where you discuss everything and ensure that neither of you is building up resentments over Love Busters (women won't want sex if they are full of resentment for their men). 

It really does take a lot of work, but it's worth it, if it results in both of you getting what you want.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

The same marriage doesn't have to be the same thing for the two people in it. I do think that both of you should make every effort to meet each other's needs. It might be just as difficult for him to hold your hand or to avoid certain words or to sit and eat at the table every night or every morning (or whatever) as it is for you to have sex every day. I think it's about effort, making sure that what is important to the other person, if it's something you can provide in the partnership, you want to. He could probably express his frustration differently. I think it's unfair to have had lots of sex before and then to change what you're doing after marriage. I always say to date how you want your life to be, not to date to get married and then expect to have it be different than how it was when you were dating. There are lots of different ways to have sex. Maybe changing it up a bit would make it more tolerable for you. If he asked you to do something else for him every day, that was important to him, but not sex, and you were able to do it because it was important to him in terms of bringing closeness to your relationship, how would you respond?


----------



## missmolly

krismimo said:


> I'am sorry but being a wife to a sick husband I'm so tired of hearing the ohh just touch caress if you havnt been through it it is not that easy... it REALLY is not. it is frustrating it is hard its an empty void that is hard to fill and what makes it more confusing is you love each other but you still have needs.


I am sorry you are in this position and feel for you as my husband has health problems at times. We have however, managed to achieve a moderate degree of contentedness by persevering. There's an excellent book on this subject but unfortunately I am overseas at the moment and can't remember the title. Perhaps you could google it.


----------



## krismimo

I know what you and matt and saying! It can be done but it is not as easy as some people think it is. It's not impossible just very difficult. I think my small pet peeve is you can't suggest something that you yourself are not going to do or havnt been through first hand. Does not mean your opnion is invalid but it is hard talking about something very few people can associate with. You know I don't know what is worse to be in good bill of health and choose not to have sex with your partner or not have a great biil of health and hardly have no sex or (at best) ok sex at all? Thanks miss molly for your suggestion I really do appreciate it


----------



## DTO

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I never said his needs are not important. He gets intamacy and attention and appreciation.. all without sex. I was never 'poo-poohing" his needs, I was merely wondering why sex specifically was so important when he knows I love him.


To directly answer your question, men have biological triggers that motivate us to seek out sex. Among them:

1)The orgasm
2) Seminal vesicles filling up (sometimes in as little as one day)
3) The ampullae filling up after three days or so

And, how does he know you love him when you are not meeting his needs? Because you do stuff that resonates with you? Not likely? Because you tell him so? Actions speak louder than words, and your actions cause him to doubt his value. Also, you mean emotional intimacy is what he gets - that's not nearly the same as physical intimacy.

I would agree that if he were here we would tell him to do the 180. Shake things up a bit and make himself more scarce. You said yourself that he's shy and not ever likely to leave. Perhaps you have become complacent?

Looking at the big picture, why does the value you place on sex even matter? Why is it not enough that he wants more sex? How would you feel if he stopped doing stuff just because you liked it? I guarantee there's stuff he does for you that he finds neutral or even taxing. If you doubt that, ask him to go a week to not do anything for you that is not directly pleasurable for him as well.


----------



## A Bit Much

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Good point, maybe it's directly linked to liking oneself, seeing oneself as lovable, seeing oneself as deserving, seeing oneself as desirable


You can like yourself but dislike who you are with your spouse too. At the time I loved but didn't like my ex it was largely because of all the hurt I experienced at his hands. It was difficult to express love to him in a sexual way because of that. Resentments and unresolved hurt can nosedive a sex drive. 

I liked myself and felt loveable and desireable without any help from him. Which is why I suppose things ended the way they did ultimately.


----------



## missmolly

unbelievable said:


> If I had ED, my mouth and my hands would still work. My wife would still be human and my vows would still be valid. We aren't talking about someone who is unable to meet their partner's need, but someone who knows about the need, is able to meet the need, but just simply would rather not. If my wife were paralyzed or severely mentally disabled, I would neither ask nor expect sexual intimacy. Again, that's not the situation the OP has handed us.




or then again if you had ED, you might be mortified and demasculated by it to the extent that you freeze and become unable to function in any way sexually. You might even completely withdraw into yourself and not cope with it at all.
That's what my husband did at first and he's a man who had NEVER displayed ego problems. It took years to work through these problems and I don't think it is possible for any woman to be any more gentle or understanding than I was.

and then OP, you regret every minute of what you had and wasted.


----------



## DTO

Sara8 said:


> If you get ED and can't have sex with your wife, does that mean it's okay for her to think you no longer love her and want out?


Depends. If I could take a Viagra and get it going but refuse because it's too much trouble, then absolutely yes she would be justified in doing so. If I honestly told her $20 (for the pill) and an hour's pre-planning are too much effort, she would assume I don't care enough about her to make even a modest effort (and she would be right).

If, OTOH, I had some serious medical issue that would be different. Let's say I had prostate cancer and had the gland removed. And, in the process, the nerves were damaged or severed. I give it my best effort but the little guy just won't respond. Then, leaving me would be her character flaw, because I am doing my best to address the issue.

And that is the difference here. I would wager that a small minority of refusing spouses (men and women alike) actually have a physical issue that prevents intercourse. From what I've read on TAM and elsewhere, a decent number have issues that make sex more problematic, and most could have more sex but choose not to. And those who choose to not have more sex refuse to address their issues and/or get upset that you even have the nerve to complain.

The difference between "cannot" and "will not" (which is another way of saying "choose to not") is monumental.


----------



## DTO

Sara8 said:


> I find this post really interesting.
> 
> A couple I know had a similar issue and the husband bullied the wife into sex by threatening divorce if she did not capitulate and have sex as often as he liked.
> 
> Fast forward four years. He is 48 and gets erectile dysfunction (oh the karma bus) Viagra and cialis don't do the trick and he has negative reactions to them to boot. So he can't use them.
> 
> The wife was so resentful that sex was important enough for him to bully her into it, that she totally withdrew from him after his ED diagnosis.
> 
> She also started accruing lots of girlfriends and started doing the things she liked without him and then filed for divorce. And, yes, he had to pay her alimony and give her half of everything, and when it came out in court he threatened to divorce her for not wanting sex as often as he, the courts showed no mercy on him.
> 
> There were plenty of witnesses to attest to his bullying the wife into sex more frequently 'cause he actually bragged about it to people and they were called to testify in court by her attorney.
> 
> Ah ya' gotta' love that Karma bus.


Well, I don't agree with bullying. And if this guy was bragging about bullying her, then he is a tool.

But, at the end of the day she was unwilling to provide whereas he was unable. Plus, there seems to be something missing from this story. She was cowed into putting out but when he became impotent she walked out? Seems odd.

Another thing. This woman you know probably is not the victim you make her out to be here. Granted, the guy was a jerk. But, lets say that he does not push for sex but continues to be patient. Now, the ED still hits at 48. The opportunity she had to really knock his socks off is gone forever. It seems unlikely that she would have felt much (if any) remorse for squandering that opportunity, which speaks very poorly of _her_ character.


----------



## unbelievable

missmolly said:


> or then again if you had ED, you might be mortified and demasculated by it to the extent that you freeze and become unable to function in any way sexually. You might even completely withdraw into yourself and not cope with it at all.
> That's what my husband did at first and he's a man who had NEVER displayed ego problems. It took years to work through these problems and I don't think it is possible for any woman to be any more gentle or understanding than I was.
> 
> and then OP, you regret every minute of what you had and wasted.


Perhaps if I had grown accustomed to operating according to my emotions, you might have a point. I've never had that inclination. My emotions haven't dictated my behavior for 50 years so if I suddenly become a slave to them, it will be a clue that I am ready for a shrink.


----------



## Jellybeans

OP-- how often are you having sex with your husband? What is the frequency?


----------



## DTO

Maricha75 said:


> Believe me, this means NOTHING when it comes to cheating. If someone sees him as vulnerable, she will prey on it, believe me. It won't matter how shy he is. If someone is giving him attention, he will enjoy it...if he is so inclined. Being shy has nothing to do with it whatsoever.


This is absolutely true. Not all women will take advantage, but to an observant woman an ignored guy gives off a signal like stink off a turd. I had a co-worker call me out for having an inattentive wife just by the way I thanked her for offering to bring me tea (I was visibly ill but refused to call in sick).

The ones who are interested (especially, but not necessarily, if they see him as vulnerable) will push hard. Two stick out in my mind. One, in college, was in my work groups, laughed at dumb jokes, bent from the waist (and she had a killer figure), waited after class to say hi to me, etc. The other was a few years ago and went so far as to say "you've been married for XX years so you're safe - come on over".

I didn't follow through on those (or any other) opportunities. But, it took a great deal of strength to refuse them, and I know most other guys similarly situated would have gone for it. How would you feel if your H had to battle temptation because you sent him out lacking?

Or, try this one out. Sometimes I feel like I was a fool for sticking with my wife (now ex) because she never came through for me in 16 years of marriage. These opportunities (and others) were with smart and attractive women, not plain women or women looking to hang on because they wanted an easy answer to life. Even if your husband never cheated, how would you feel if he regretted marrying you for something you could have easily provided?

Or, to borrow from another post on this thread, how would you feel if he became ill and the opportunity for a good sex life was simply gone? If you can seriously say that none of these circumstances would bother you, you might need to look at how much you value him.


----------



## missmolly

unbelievable said:


> Perhaps if I had grown accustomed to operating according to my emotions, you might have a point. I've never had that inclination. My emotions haven't dictated my behavior for 50 years so if I suddenly become a slave to them, it will be a clue that I am ready for a shrink.


For 50 years my husband had been the most sensible and level headed person I had ever met. In fact it was one of the things that i most admired about him - his ability to rationally analyse situations and react with consideration for outcome. 
That was why I was so shocked at his response to ED.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> One guy said he still can use his hands and other parts. Give me a break. I bet when he gets ED he will also have low desire.
> 
> ED is caused by a lack or arterial and venous blood flow. It causes tiredness and tired people are not interested in sex.


I can speak from experience on this one, Sara. My 31 year old husband has been dealing with ED issues for a few reasons.

1. He is suffering from depression. Well, more specifically, Bipolar II, but he appears depressed nearly all of the time.

2. High blood pressure due to some of his medications... which, unfortunately, are the only things which are helping his head.

3. Weight gain...again, his medications. The man doesn't over eat. He eats when and how much he is supposed to.

Now, even with his inability to get it up as often as we would like, his desire *HAS NOT DIMINISHED IN ANY WAY*. And he DOES use his mouth and his fingers to get me off each time, regardless of whether he is able to finish. So, yes, Sara, men who have ED CAN still have the desire. He is NOT always tired. He is VERY interested in sex. Not everyone fits into your little form here. So, excuse me while I say "give ME a break!"


----------



## _Jo_

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?


Good advice has been given by so many fellow members here that I hope you're able to work things out with your H. I just found this forum today and happen to be in your H's shoes so I'd like to give my 2 cents and hopefully get some good advice myself on such a difficult and under estimated issue. 

So my wife and I have been married for 3 yrs now. We dated 3 years before I proposed. In the sex department everything was great! we would do it at least once a day. Things were going fine til right after our marriage. Just a few months after sex started to go down drastically and without any real explanation. To the point where I unfortunately at times question whether or not I made the right decision marrying her. 
I do not wish these feelings upon anyone. 
I don't know what to do because I have such a high sex drive and she doesn't. Like the OP, she feels as if sex is the least important thing in a relationship. 
I love her to death and I do not want to break my voes but I feel so vulnerable to cheating sometimes. 
The opportunity has been there before and I was able to control it but my patience is diminishing and I my sex drive is way to high. I have told her this and naturally, she becomes very upset and starts telling me to leave her if that's what I want and that kind of things which I don't. But my desire for sex is so great that I don't know that I can stay faithful if I continue to be neglected. I know that's terrible to say but I'm just expressing how I feel. Any advice?


----------



## Samayouchan

noturtypicalwoman said:


> My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all.



WOW I think I have finally found someone just like me. LOL. This sounds familiar. Its not that I dont like sex, but I'm okay without it. My first marriage ended because I wasn't satisfying my husband in the bedroom along with my ex cheating on me.... But i'll tell you what my Momma told me at the end of it all then.
"There are just some things a lady has to do even though its bothersome to you, in order to keep your husband happy. Sex is one of them. They are just wired for it differently."

I can NOT express how important that statement is in my new marriage even if i REALLY dont want to, I just go ok fine. I know you're wired differently and you need this (the sex)more than me. In the end, yea I'm actually happy about it. Making my new husband happy is my goal and I love him more than life itself. He treats me like a queen for the most parts. And for that, he gets rewarded. =p


----------



## Holland

Samayouchan said:


> WOW I think I have finally found someone just like me. LOL. This sounds familiar. Its not that I dont like sex, but I'm okay without it. My first marriage ended because I wasn't satisfying my husband in the bedroom along with my ex cheating on me.... But i'll tell you what my Momma told me at the end of it all then.
> *"There are just some things a lady has to do even though its bothersome to you, in order to keep your husband happy. Sex is one of them. They are just wired for it differently."*
> 
> I can NOT express how important that statement is in my new marriage even if i REALLY dont want to, I just go ok fine. I know you're wired differently and you need this (the sex)more than me. In the end, yea I'm actually happy about it. Making my new husband happy is my goal and I love him more than life itself. He treats me like a queen for the most parts. And for that, he gets rewarded. =p


Really? No *people *are wired differently it is not gender specific.

Many women enjoy sex, many men don't. Sorry but your mums statements just goes to prolong the incorrect stereotyping of genders in regard to sex.

People have different drives, no big deal. The problem in so many cases is when a partner had sex at the start of the relationship and then changes. 

I don't like stamp collecting, boating, horse riding. I would do all of these things at the start of a new relationship to show my partner that I valued his interest in other things. But I would make it clear that they were not long term interests for me but he can go and enjoy them.
To engage in sex at the start of a relationship and then pull the plug later is a nasty thing to do to the person you supposedly love. 

If you don't like sex, don't partner up with someone that does.


----------



## Samayouchan

Holland said:


> To engage in sex at the start of a relationship and then pull the plug later is a nasty thing to do to the person you supposedly love.


oh i totally agree!


And again, my mother knew the circumstances behind my situation at that time, and it was good to hear that because it helped me understand some issues i was having.

i still think guys are wired differently XD =p but thats just a personal outlook. =/ edit all guys arent** always the same :smthumbup:


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> Well, I don't agree with bullying. And if this guy was bragging about bullying her, then he is a tool.
> 
> But, at the end of the day she was unwilling to provide whereas he was unable. Plus, there seems to be something missing from this story. She was cowed into putting out but when he became impotent she walked out? Seems odd.
> 
> Another thing. This woman you know probably is not the victim you make her out to be here. Granted, the guy was a jerk. But, lets say that he does not push for sex but continues to be patient. Now, the ED still hits at 48. The opportunity she had to really knock his socks off is gone forever. It seems unlikely that she would have felt much (if any) remorse for squandering that opportunity, which speaks very poorly of _her_ character.


Hmmm. Interesting that you have now become a mind reader. 

I know this woman very well. She loved her husband, but had low desired. 

As I said emotional issues are just as serious as physical issues. 

Her husband disrespected her and showed her all he cared about in the marriage after 20 something years is sex. 

He was effectively telling her he only saw her as a geisha girl rather than a life partner. 

She told me why she left. She said she left because of all the years of his bullying for sex, and now that he could not have sex, she was just suppose to put up with it. 

This guy created his own problem and with ED he isn't going to find anyone new. Karma in action I say. 

One woman I read about in a book about marriage counseling told the counselor that when her husband whined about not having sex often enough, but refused to approach her in a romantic enticing way, she felt as if she was only his "sperm toilet" not his life partner.

If sex is your sole criteria for staying married, than really you should let her go.

And that is my advice to the person who started this thread. Let this guy go. 

He's going to cheat and use sex as his reason. She is only his sex slave, he does not love her or care about her.


----------



## sinnister

Sara8 said:


> Are you referring to me?
> 
> If so, does a logical discussion equate to hate in your mind? That's insulting and condescending, IMO.
> 
> That's odd. I thought a logical discussion was just that, unless I am talking to a neanderthal, I always assume I am talking to someone who can handle logic.


Sara8: When I say "hate" I don't mean hate hate. I'm talking about hatin'. In the urban sense.


----------



## Sara8

Maricha75 said:


> I can speak from experience on this one, Sara. My 31 year old husband has been dealing with ED issues for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. He is suffering from depression. Well, more specifically, Bipolar II, but he appears depressed nearly all of the time.
> 
> 2. High blood pressure due to some of his medications... which, unfortunately, are the only things which are helping his head.
> 
> 3. Weight gain...again, his medications. The man doesn't over eat. He eats when and how much he is supposed to.
> 
> Now, even with his inability to get it up as often as we would like, his desire *HAS NOT DIMINISHED IN ANY WAY*. And he DOES use his mouth and his fingers to get me off each time, regardless of whether he is able to finish. So, yes, Sara, men who have ED CAN still have the desire. He is NOT always tired. He is VERY interested in sex. Not everyone fits into your little form here. So, excuse me while I say "give ME a break!"


To borrow your own words: Not every one fits into a little form. 

As I recall you had an emotional affair, so I am not sure that you are so easily satisfied with his mouth and hands. 

And not every women would be. Some would want to experience the typical sex and their is actually a psychologically valid reason why hands and mouth MAY not be enough for some women or maybe even all. 

Also, when a man uses his hands and mouth there is no sexual satisfaction for him so in the end it would be normal for him to lose interest in servicing his wife.


----------



## Sara8

sinnister said:


> Sara8: When I say "hate" I don't mean hate hate. I'm talking about hatin'. In the urban sense.


Please enlighten me to your definition of hatin' so that I don't misconstrue and totally understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Sara8

Holland said:


> If you don't like sex, don't partner up with someone that does.


Here's the thing. People grow and change after 20 something years. 

Some men get ed and that is easy to understand as being physical. 

But many women have hormone deficits that are physical but it is not OBVIOUS that it is phyisical and it appears that they just don't enjoy sex. 

When in reality they are not fueled by the hormones that cause them to want sex. 

A husband that loves his wife might realize this just as so many women who have husbands with ED who are NOT satisfied with them using their hands and mouth and prefer sex the good old fashioned way, but yet they love their husband and CHOSE not to nag.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> And that is my advice to the person who started this thread. Let this guy go.
> 
> He's going to cheat and use sex as his reason. She is only his sex slave, he does not love her or care about her.


My advice would be similar to the OP... if they can't work out the sex issue, then yes, let him go. But to say she is his sex slave?? Really? She hasn't stated how often they have sex. She thinks that's too personal for an open forum. For all we know, she is content with once a month and he would be happy getting once a week. HARDLY a sex slave in that instance! Look, I know we all bring our own baggage when we reply to posts, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the OP's husband ABSOLUTELY WILL CHEAT and use sex as the excuse, when we don't know the whole story. We only know the small part she has posted: He wants more sex, she doesn't. Not EVERY man will cheat due to lack of sex. Not saying it never crosses their minds, but SOME stay faithful. I pointed out that she can't count on him "not [being] the type to cheat" as her only basis for this. Type has nothing to do with it if a marriage turns sexless. Just because my husband had an EA, doesn't mean OP's husband will. Just because your husband chose to have a PA, doesn't mean the OP's husband will. Just because I had EAs, doesn't mean her husband will. My point is that there are both sides to this and we are getting PART of HER story. 

I apologize if this seems like I am attacking you, in any way, Sara. That was not my intent. My purpose in pointing this out is that we really don't know much about the situation, and we are ALL speculating about it. But just because he's not getting sex doesn't mean he will cheat on her. He very well could be the type to divorce before getting involved with someone else. We don't know. Probably never will because the things asked, she refused because she finds the questions too personal...even for an anonymous forum.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I have found once things start heading in that direction that I always end up enjoying sex so even if I'm tired or not in the mood, etc, if I give it a chance I always end up satisfied, happy and very glad I did. And even if I went to sleep later, it seems a small concession - I don't really find myself more tired than usual the next day.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> To borrow your own words: Not every one fits into a little form.
> 
> *As I recall you had an emotional affair, so I am not sure that you are so easily satisfied with his mouth and hands.*
> 
> And not every women would be. Some would want to experience the typical sex and their is actually a psychologically valid reason why hands and mouth MAY not be enough for some women or maybe even all.
> 
> Also, when a man uses his hands and mouth there is no sexual satisfaction for him so in the end it would be normal for him to lose interest in servicing his wife.


Yes I did. Sexually, I was satisfied. Sexually, I AM satisfied. Not everyone fits the same form, that is true. My point was not that EVERY man would be ok with this. My point was that SOME, including MY husband, are. Maybe he will feel differently as we age. Who knows? But not everyone who experiences ED is unwilling to please his wife. Not every woman would be satisfied that way, I agree... but not every woman would be opposed to having ONLY that.

ETA: Also, Sara, the ED issue is NOW, not then. He never had ED at that time. He is satisfying me EVEN NOW in that way. The EA was not due to any sexual problems in our marriage. The EA was my stupidity in ANOTHER area of the marriage. WE are on track regarding that. It is something that he and I TOGETHER have discussed and we are on the same page regarding that issue. Thanks.


----------



## Holland

Sara8 said:


> Here's the thing. People grow and change after 20 something years.
> 
> Some men get ed and that is easy to understand as being physical.
> 
> But many women have hormone deficits that are physical but it is not OBVIOUS that it is phyisical and it appears that they just don't enjoy sex.
> 
> When in reality they are not fueled by the hormones that cause them to want sex.
> 
> A husband that loves his wife might realize this just as so many women who have husbands with ED who are NOT satisfied with them using their hands and mouth and prefer sex the good old fashioned way, but yet they love their husband and CHOSE not to nag.


But we are talking about short term marriages here not 20 years worth. For sure we all ebb and flow but you are putting all cases into one basket which is not the reality of what we are discussing.


----------



## Sara8

Dad&Hubby said:


> It might be more with hands, mouth and toys but it would still be sexual.


Well that sounds so romantic and fulfilling. :sleeping:

Kinda' akin to masturbating, yes, no, maybe?


----------



## DTO

Sara8 said:


> Please enlighten me to your definition of hatin' so that I don't misconstrue and totally understand where you are coming from.


It means strongly envious or jealous of another person, where you seek to bring them down in your mind to compensate for something they have and you want.


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> I can see how his approach can be a huge turn off to you, even if you wanted sex every day.
> 
> Are you sure he isn't cheating?
> 
> While in his affair, my STBEH started with this frequency issue, even though he would frequently rebuff me for sex, when I was interested.
> 
> He seemed to be making an issue about an issue he created. He actually now admits he did this, since I have filed after his cheating, and he wants to work things out.
> 
> Prior to his affair (likely the contemplation phase) He became very unromantic about asking for sex, almost brutish.
> 
> I was turned off and discussed why. He didn't seem to care.
> 
> In fact the rude way he approached escalated almost as if he wanted to annoy me. (he now admits this was true and has apologized.)
> 
> I even went so far as to make my own romance by cooking a gourmet dinner and lighting candles and playing soothing music and then initiating sex , he rebuffed me, saying the romance seemed silly.
> 
> Soon after, He did meet a predatory women who fed his ego and offered easy sex. He says he wasn't looking for it but I don't agree.
> 
> Interestingly she did not have sex with her own husband, apparently she wasn't ever attracted to him and married him as a meal ticket.
> 
> She also had prior affairs and seemed to enjoy the conquest of having a married man lust after her.
> 
> She pursued him, and she pushed for sex. I think my husband liked the pursuit so he kept her at bay for as long as possible but was always interested in the affair.
> 
> Would a few visits to a good marriage counselor help open discussion between you two?
> 
> Meanwhile put a var in his car and monitor his email and cell phone texts and calls. Have a PI follow him at lunch during work or if he goes out alone at night.
> 
> I was totally blindsided by my STBEH's cheating. It ruined my love for him and although he does not now want the divorce, I can never ever trust him again, due to the Long term affair he had with a low life woman.
> 
> That's sad too because he is now saying he desperately wants things to work out between us.
> 
> All it would have taken was a little romancing before he decided to jump into an affair and we probably would have been okay.
> 
> But now, I will never be able to trust him again. Too many lies.


What in the world does any of this have to do with the OP?


----------



## Sara8

Holland said:


> But we are talking about short term marriages here not 20 years worth. For sure we all ebb and flow but you are putting all cases into one basket which is not the reality of what we are discussing.


I actually agree, that if early on the disparity in desire is obvious, that is a bait and switch.

I am talking about ten years or more and depending on the person's age. 

Still, I have heard of once healthy men developing ED in their 30s due to stress nothing physical and the wife does not cheat. 

None of my lady friends cheat on their spouse. I would dump them pronto if they did. Quite a few are married to guys with ED. 

I can tell you that none are satisfied with the hands and mouth and toy approach. It gets depressing according to the women I know, and also the men lose interest in it quickly because their is nothing in it for them.

None have bullied them or threatened to cheat or divorce them. 

*I believe that is the point the original poster is trying to make. *

She is saying that a marriage is about far more than sex.

It is about having a trustworthy life partner to help you navigate and weather the storms of life. 

Also, there are lots of single men I know who refrain from sex for years, because they need to feel love to want sex and having sex just for sex sake would expose them to STDs.

There are single people who go without sex for years and their private parts don't fall off. 

But I agree, if the wife acts all hot prior to marriage and then a few years later acts all prissy, then that's weird. 

The OW in my STBEH's affair was like that. She lured her husband in with sex and then got tired of him. 

Likely she would have done the same with my STBEH 'cause she is a self confessed serial cheater. 

Based on the emails I saw between the two, she truly hates her husband. She complained about his hairy, pudgy, pale body and how it disgusts her. 

She said she hides in another room at night hoping he falls asleep so she doesn't have to ward him off. 

The husband whom I talk to and met, is better looking than she is and works his butt off to send their 4 children to good schools. 

Sad that all she cares about is sex and the thrill of the new conquest.


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> It means strongly envious or jealous of another person, where you seek to bring them down in your mind to compensate for something they have and you want.


And enlighten me further please, are you accusing me of that or is it just a general statement?

Just askin' for clarification. 

Before I tell you how amusing I find that statement to be if it is aimed at me.


----------



## Sara8

jaquen said:


> What in the world does any of this have to do with the OP?


The point is right in the first paragraph, in which we are discussing that perhaps the OP does not want sex with her husband for various reason including POSSIBLY, he stinks in bed among a variety of other things.


----------



## WalterWhite

Sara8, you continually misrepresent the OP's opening in this thread. There is no medical, no physical reason she denies her husband sex. She simply does not value his need for it. Go back and read her opening statement!

She is being selfish to not validate his needs, and to meet them.

Why don't you see this? Why do you continually misrepresent the theme of this thread? Are you projecting your own issues here? It seems so, even if it is not intended. 

Also, a sexless marraige is not really a marriage at all. It's more like a friendship because it lacks romance, erotic love, the type of loving that is or should be unique to just those two people. And for those couples elderly that cannot have sex for medical reasons or physical reasons, they can still feel romance because of the MEMORIES they created in their younger years. But too often, younger couples are not making much of those types of memories :-(.

One last thing: When a spouse has a pattern of denying sex to the other (not talking medical or physical reasons here), it is the breaking of the marriage vows, just like cheating, and grounds for divorce.


----------



## Sara8

_Jo_ said:


> Good advice has been given by so many fellow members here that I hope you're able to work things out with your H. I just found this forum today and happen to be in your H's shoes so I'd like to give my 2 cents and hopefully get some good advice myself on such a difficult and under estimated issue.
> 
> So my wife and I have been married for 3 yrs now. We dated 3 years before I proposed. In the sex department everything was great! we would do it at least once a day. Things were going fine til right after our marriage. Just a few months after sex started to go down drastically and without any real explanation. To the point where I unfortunately at times question whether or not I made the right decision marrying her.
> I do not wish these feelings upon anyone.
> I don't know what to do because I have such a high sex drive and she doesn't. Like the OP, she feels as if sex is the least important thing in a relationship.
> I love her to death and I do not want to break my voes but I feel so vulnerable to cheating sometimes.
> The opportunity has been there before and I was able to control it but my patience is diminishing and I my sex drive is way to high. I have told her this and naturally, she becomes very upset and starts telling me to leave her if that's what I want and that kind of things which I don't. But my desire for sex is so great that I don't know that I can stay faithful if I continue to be neglected. I know that's terrible to say but I'm just expressing how I feel. Any advice?


Have you gone to counseling. 

Any good counselor will tell you that a lack of desire does not come out of the blue. 

It takes two to tango.

If your sex issue truly can not be resolved with counseling than perhaps you might want to consider divorce.

Your wife has already given you permission to divorce if you are unhappy.

Cheating as an exit affair is very cruel. Do the moral thing, and file for divorce if counseling can't solve your sex issue.


----------



## Sara8

WalterWhite said:


> Sara8, you continually misrepresent the OP's opening in this thread. There is no medical, no physical reason she denies her husband sex. She simply does not value his need for it. Go back and read her opening statement!
> 
> She is being selfish to not validate his needs, and to meet them.
> 
> Why don't you see this? Why do you continually misrepresent the theme of this thread? Are you projecting your own issues here? It seems so, even if it is not intended.


Actually if you read her replies she has said none of those things. 

Why are you putting words in her mouth. 

She said she loves him and respects him but does not feel that sex is all that important in the marriage. 

I am saying that maybe she feels that way because as one women mentioned in a marriage counseling book. 

Her husband's constant whining about sex makes her feel like a "sperm toilet"

If you research denial and repression, it is quite possible for someone to feel that way without even acknowledging it at the conscious level. 

To your point, too, it's possible she does not love her husband and is in denial about that too.

Still, she has denied that. So I can only believe what she says.


----------



## WalterWhite

Sara8 said:


> Actually if you read her replies she has said none of those things.
> 
> Why are you putting words in her mouth.
> 
> She said she loves him and respects him but does not feel that sex is all that important in the marriage.
> 
> I am saying that maybe she feels that way because as one women mentioned in a marriage counseling book.
> 
> Her husband's constant whining about sex makes her feel like a "sperm toilet"
> 
> If you research denial and repression, it is quite possible for someone to feel that way without even acknowledging it at the conscious level.
> 
> To your point, too, it's possible she does not love her husband and is in denial about that too.
> 
> Still, she has denied that. So I can only believe what she says.


The point is, and it is found in her opening statement: She UNILATERALLY has made the decision for HIM that he wants too much sex. The frequency is very little too. If we are to beleive her own words and take them at face value, then it is reasonable to view her as withholding, and not being there for him. Now granted, he might have done some bad stuff to deserve this treatment, but she is not saying.


----------



## Dubya

WalterWhite said:


> The point is, and it is found in her opening statement: She UNILATERALLY has made the decision for HIM that he wants too much sex. The frequency is very little too. If we are to beleive her own words and take them at face value, then it is reasonable to view her as withholding, and not being there for him. Now granted, he might have done some bad stuff to deserve this treatment, but she is not saying.


That's what I got out of OP's post as well. Btw, is OP still on this thread?


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> The point is right in the first paragraph, in which we are discussing that perhaps the OP does not want sex with her husband for various reason including POSSIBLY, he stinks in bed among a variety of other things.



Phantom points the OP never stated, or implied.

What the OP stated in her original scenario is clearly laid out: her husband thinks sex is "the most important part of marriage", and she disagrees. She goes on to say that they use to have sex every single day, but that the sex diminished, and gave no reason. The husband in turn feels like she's not attracted to him, and she disagrees. She simply feels sex is "overrated", and feels that other aspects of the marriage are more important. The man is now angry at her, and wants the sex she's continually denying him, the sex she once participated in very regularly. In later posts she makes it clear that she doesn't get the big deal as to why her husband can't feel her love, and attraction, in other non-sexual ways.

You have been running up and down this thread over the last several pages with your fist in the air, and your man-hating badge on full display. You are hijacking this thread with your own issues, and your own problems, that frankly have NOTHING to do with the scenario presented by the OP. You are doing nothing but projecting left and right at this point.

You need to stop. This thread is not about you, your friend's husband with ED, your husband's relationship with a woman who likes married, "strange" men, the romance he didn't give to you but gave to her, "karma" biting men in the butt with ED, or sex slaves.


----------



## Another Planet

Dubya said:


> That's what I got out of OP's post as well. Btw, is OP still on this thread?


Hopefully she is to busy spending time with her husband.


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> Well that sounds so romantic and fulfilling. :sleeping:
> 
> Kinda' akin to masturbating, yes, no, maybe?





Sara8 said:


> I can tell you that none are satisfied with the hands and mouth and toy approach. It gets depressing according to the women I know, and also the men lose interest in it quickly because their is nothing in it for them.


My guess is that you don't have any lesbian friends. Because you basically just denounced the entire way many lesbians find sexual satisfaction.

I'd love to see you tell a lesbian that the "hands and mouth and toy approach" can't be romantic, fulfilling, and satisfying.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Sara8 said:


> Interesting that you have now become a mind reader.
> 
> Her husband ... showed her all he cared about in the marriage after 20 something years is sex.
> 
> He was effectively telling her he only saw her as a geisha girl rather than a life partner.


Sara8,

Please don't take this the wrong way because I highly value your contributions to this thread.

I see this as classic textbook projection


----------



## turnera

Well, as a woman, I think it's just as likely that she has picked up on the tone of the OP's discussions and sees how hard her husband pushes for it. If he isn't being as giving in the areas that matter to HER, that creates huge Love Busters. It's just basic psychology. 

We don't know, of course, but we're wasting valuable bandwidth and meta time discussing whether a responder is valid or not. Back to topic?


----------



## anchorwatch

turnera said:


> Well, as a woman, I think it's just as likely that she has picked up on the tone of the OP's discussions and sees how hard her husband pushes for it. If he isn't being as giving in the areas that matter to HER, that creates huge Love Busters. It's just basic psychology.
> 
> We don't know, of course, but we're wasting valuable bandwidth and meta time discussing whether a responder is valid or not. Back to topic?


I agree, that if all this projecting hasn't run off the OP, we should wait for her response and reaction to the readings and advice.


----------



## Carisma

It seems that the OP has disappeared but I have 2 things to say so will just say them....

1. To be all in for sex in the early days of the relationship and now say it does't matter indicates a lie somewhere. That is a nasty trick to play on a man.

2. For me, the longer I go without (3 months caring for dying family member and too exhausted to even M) the less interested I am. I had to force myself back into the game....but the more I get the more I want. I don't know why but it has always been the case. And if you don't enjoy it you need to do some more personal experimentation with toys or something....just saying. If you cut that out you are missing out on a lot of fun! Give yourself a chance to enjoy this part of married life. And there are times when it won't be enjoyable, do it anyway BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM!!!!


----------



## turnera

Carisma said:


> 1. To be all in for sex in the early days of the relationship and now say it does't matter indicates a lie somewhere. That is a nasty trick to play on a man.


Not a trick. Women usually have to feel loved to want to have sex. Men usually have to have sex to feel loved. If the man has the higher drive, it behooves him - in order to get what HE wants - to pay attention to whether she's feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a lower-libido female is still going to want to 'do it' as much as the man. Especially if he's not meeting HER needs or is Love Busting her. 

Call it unfair all you like. But it IS human nature and basic psychology. You can't MAKE a woman want it if other issues are going on.


----------



## Chris Taylor

turnera said:


> Not a trick. Women usually have to feel loved to want to have sex. Men usually have to have sex to feel loved. If the man has the higher drive, it behooves him - in order to get what HE wants - to pay attention to whether she's feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a lower-libido female is still going to want to 'do it' as much as the man. Especially if he's not meeting HER needs or is Love Busting her.
> 
> Call it unfair all you like. But it IS human nature and basic psychology. You can't MAKE a woman want it if other issues are going on.


All this is true, but OP clearly states in her opening post that she loves him and finds him attractive:

"He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true."

So if that is the case, and barring any issues she has not mentioned (or I missed), it's not him. It's her.


----------



## Carisma

You know, most men I know don't start out being nasty and crude. But when his wife continually refuses him, he pretty much knows he is going to get a "no" so why bother asking nicely anymore. It is not second nature for guys to be "courteous" but when they work to be that way for us and we shut them down, why should they bother any further? I bet the crude questions didn't happen the first week she decided she didn't want sex anymore.

And you know what....a woman that says that she loves her husband and claims to want to preserve her marriage, but is unwilling to deliver on that, is deluding herself! It doesn't sound like the OP is saying that she only wants it once a week and he wants it daily, it sounds like she just doesn't WANT IT AT ALL! If she would come back and clarify things that would be nice but she hasn't. There are a good many times that he puts the moves on me and I am tired/stressed/bored/ whatever...and I deliver because I believe the Dr Laura claim, *if you don't show your husband that you love him the way he needs to be shown, someone else will.* 

Some are saying he deserves to have the lock on the marriage bed because he isn't nice to her, what came first? And more than that, maybe if she were to "put out" for him occasionally, he would feel more inclined to show her love the way SHE wants it. There seems to be a lot of man-bashing here!


----------



## LookingForTheSun

* And if you don't enjoy it you need to do some more personal experimentation with toys or something....just saying. If you cut that out you are missing out on a lot of fun! Give yourself a chance to enjoy this part of married life. And there are times when it won't be enjoyable, do it anyway BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM!!!![/QUOTE]*
:iagree:

And I agree with another post - the more we (hubby and I) have sex, the more I want it.

From the original post on here - sounds like the husband just wants sex with his wife -and he is telling her in so many words - he is gettng frustrated. He is feeling a disconnect in that they are not being intimate enough, so if he can't have the love making, he will settle for sex - but at least he wants it from her - very important to recognize!

I won't go into why I know sex is important in a marriage (not my thread), but don't let life, kids, work get in the way. Make time for it, and if you are not enjoying it, figure out why - I am a female, and it is one of the best things in a marriage that the two of you can share - and having a healthy sex life wil help your relationship in many dfferent ways - and may keep you more attentive to each other and make you both vulnerable enough in the bedroom where you share your true feelings about each other and life in general. Sex IS NOT over rated.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

*Also, when a man uses his hands and mouth there is no sexual satisfaction for him so in the end it would be normal for him to lose interest in servicing his wife.[/QUOTE]* So getting an erection is not sexual satisfaction? Or is satisfaction only the last few seconds?


----------



## Emerald

OP got run off a long time ago.

Carry on........................


----------



## MattMatt

> Originally Posted by Maricha75
> Believe me, this means NOTHING when it comes to cheating. If someone sees him as vulnerable, she will prey on it, believe me. It won't matter how shy he is. If someone is giving him attention, he will enjoy it...if he is so inclined. Being shy has nothing to do with it whatsoever.


I believe that this is what happened to me. I am a shy person, but had an affair.


----------



## turnera

Chris Taylor said:


> All this is true, but OP clearly states in her opening post that she loves him and finds him attractive:
> 
> "He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true."
> 
> So if that is the case, and barring any issues she has not mentioned (or I missed), it's not him. It's her.


I can love the hell out of my husband and still be turned off in the bedroom if he's LBing me or if there are other issues going on. It still behooves the one seeking more sex to figure out what it takes.


----------



## turnera

Carisma said:


> Some are saying he deserves to have the lock on the marriage bed because he isn't nice to her, what came first? And more than that, maybe if she were to "put out" for him occasionally, he would feel more inclined to show her love the way SHE wants it. There seems to be a lot of man-bashing here!


 Not man-bashing. Being logical, and presenting things that WORK to resolve whatever issues there are.

And we, none of us, have any idea what really goes on in their marriage so making assumptions does no good. She should "put out?" Like a hooker? Right. 

Why not just discuss the issues in the marriage that BOTH have and find a real solution?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

turnera said:


> Not a trick. Women usually have to feel loved to want to have sex. Men usually have to have sex to feel loved. If the man has the higher drive, it behooves him - in order to get what HE wants - to pay attention to whether she's feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a lower-libido female is still going to want to 'do it' as much as the man. Especially if he's not meeting HER needs or is Love Busting her.
> 
> Call it unfair all you like. But it IS human nature and basic psychology. You can't MAKE a woman want it if other issues are going on.


I am afraid the human nature in our genes is that the woman lures the man with sex and the man provides with shelter and food.So if the woman thinks (unconscious) that shelter and food is provided the only sex she needs is to produce offspring, and not have sex just for fun and love. That is simply waisting costly resources of time and energy.

Some women have not left this genetic origin behind them and use sex as a means to get to their targets....


----------



## missmolly

LookingForTheSun said:


> *Also, when a man uses his hands and mouth there is no sexual satisfaction for him so in the end it would be normal for him to lose interest in servicing his wife.*


 So getting an erection is not sexual satisfaction? Or is satisfaction only the last few seconds?[/QUOTE]

I believe this was referring to a side issue of someone with an ED problem


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> It means strongly envious or jealous of another person, where you seek to bring them down in your mind to compensate for something they have and you want.


You avoided my question. Are you referring to me? If so.......

Wow, that's a major assumption, and all based on message board postings. 

Wow, you must be something to read minds so well. :sleeping:

Can you give me the upcoming powerball numbers 'cause, like wow, you are so convinced your psychic and can read minds so well, that well, with that kinda' confidence, like wow, you must be great, at the very least in your own mind. I wish I had your kinda confidence. You would make a great politician.


----------



## Sara8

WalterWhite said:


> Sara8, you continually misrepresent the OP's opening in this thread. There is no medical, no physical reason she denies her husband sex. She simply does not value his need for it. Go back and read her opening statement!


Are you a doc who has done a physical psychological evaluatoion this women? 

I am saying a lot of ignorant husbands do not understand that hormone deficits often go undiagnosed and are difficult to measure accurately. 

This may be an undiagnosed cause. 

But a lot of MALE doctors refuse to believe this because they are uneducated and dense or untrained and old school.

Just because you can't see a physical cause or someone is themselves unaware of a physical cause doesn't mean there isn't one. 

also, let me say again, If her husband is a lousey lay like a lot of men who think they are great in bed when they are really lazy lovers, then it's still physical because it's in her head and her brain is a physical part of her body that controls love chemicals and other hormones. 

I know that is a bit technical for the average joe, but it's a fact.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Well, by the OP's definition of marriage I am married to my dog.


----------



## Sara8

jaquen said:


> My guess is that you don't have any lesbian friends. Because you basically just denounced the entire way many lesbians find sexual satisfaction.
> 
> I'd love to see you tell a lesbian that the "hands and mouth and toy approach" can't be romantic, fulfilling, and satisfying.


No, I decidely don't have ANY LESBIAN friends. 

And, that is likely why I can't relate. 

I have nothing against lesbians, but the idea of doing it with another women definitely grosses me out. 

I guess that's why I don't have lesbian friends and would not be happy with hands and mouth only and the fact that my partner could not ejaculate. 

BTW: Thank you for clarifying that I am heterosexual and to some degree making my point.


----------



## Sara8

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Sara8,
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way because I highly value your contributions to this thread.
> 
> I see this as classic textbook projection


You do?

Based on what?

Your message board diagnosis both amuses me, and automatically invalidates it by any basic standard of pyschological diagnositic method or criteria for both the hard and soft sciences

But persist in your delusional diagnostic skills, if it keeps you in your comfort zone and prevents you from thinking that your wife may not want sex for reasons that MAY threaten you.


----------



## Sara8

anchorwatch said:


> I agree, that if all this projecting hasn't run off the OP, we should wait for her response and reaction to the readings and advice.


Actually, I think reading the discussion whether or not she is presumptuous enough to assume projections (if they actually exist) will still benefit the OP. 

The convo may take her out of her comfort zone, but that is where growth takes place. 

Just basic psychology.


----------



## Sara8

recent_cloud said:


> my goodness your button has been pushed.
> 
> and my reference to a button was not meant to be a metaphor
> 
> for, well, sex stuff and such
> 
> anyways
> 
> here's hoping you calm down a little
> 
> after such a climactic social intercourse
> 
> on this thread
> 
> :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


Wow another assumer. 

You are so wise, or are you. 

Do the wise advise assuming anything?

Not when I was in school.


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> Not a trick. Women usually have to feel loved to want to have sex. Men usually have to have sex to feel loved. If the man has the higher drive, it behooves him - in order to get what HE wants - to pay attention to whether she's feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a lower-libido female is still going to want to 'do it' as much as the man. Especially if he's not meeting HER needs or is Love Busting her.
> 
> Call it unfair all you like. But it IS human nature and basic psychology. You can't MAKE a woman want it if other issues are going on.


Excellent point, and I agree. Alas, it will elude those who have no understanding of basic psychology and that is likely the majority of society. 

So sad.


----------



## DTO

Sara8 said:


> Hmmm. Interesting that you have now become a mind reader.
> 
> I know this woman very well. She loved her husband, but had low desired.
> 
> As I said emotional issues are just as serious as physical issues.
> 
> Her husband disrespected her and showed her all he cared about in the marriage after 20 something years is sex.
> 
> He was effectively telling her he only saw her as a geisha girl rather than a life partner.
> 
> She told me why she left. She said she left because of all the years of his bullying for sex, and now that he could not have sex, she was just suppose to put up with it.
> 
> This guy created his own problem and with ED he isn't going to find anyone new. Karma in action I say.
> 
> One woman I read about in a book about marriage counseling told the counselor that when her husband whined about not having sex often enough, but refused to approach her in a romantic enticing way, she felt as if she was only his "sperm toilet" not his life partner.
> 
> If sex is your sole criteria for staying married, than really you should let her go.
> 
> And that is my advice to the person who started this thread. Let this guy go.
> 
> He's going to cheat and use sex as his reason. She is only his sex slave, he does not love her or care about her.


Hi again Sara,

Your sarcasm aside, I stand by my analysis. I'll reiterate that LD is an emotional / mental thing. It does not dictate action. In that way, it is distinctly different than ED which does not respond to treatment. That is a physical inability to perform.

The difference between humans and other animals is we can go beyond instinct and stimulus/response in the way we act. Some people, unfortunately, don't do this consistently.

Your friend's LD did not automatically lead to low sexual activity because, again, we humans do not just react. Her LD _plus a willingness to indulge her LD state_ led to her refusing sex. At some point, she decided that her needs or comfort were _more_ important than his, or her discomfort with sex was greater than his without it. If she had simply resolved that her his needs were as important as hers (and she would act on that basis), the sexual activity would not have been so low.

I've made a few observations of your belief system (based on your posts) that might explain why you seem so out of touch with the other posters:

1) Your initial claim is that sex is held out as more important than it should be. But following posts reveal a sense that sex is simply unimportant - men should be willing to live without it. It's a matter of degree, admittedly.

2) Your view of proper sex is very rigid. You speak of "good, old-fashioned sex" (intercourse) and note that manual sex, oral sex, and toys are akin to "masturbation". This sounds like someone who devalues experimentation and variety, and maybe holds to religious / cultish views on "good" sex and "bad" sex.

3) You speak of sex being unimportant over the long term. I believe you wrote something about why leave for no sex after 20 years. It's a bit of a reach, but it really sounds like you think the proper role of sex is to procreate. After about 20 years of marriage, more kids generally are not in the picture, and life is busy (raising the kids you do have, tending to house, jobs), so why bother?

The folks here on TAM take a mindset that sex is always important in marriage. And that sex is not just procreation sex or sex with a "purpose". We mean recreational sex where you please yourself (hopefully) and your partner (a must) because it's most likely important to one of you and the marriage is about caring for that other as much as yourself, not interrupting that simply human regard with value judgments.


----------



## Sara8

Emerald said:


> OP got run off a long time ago.
> 
> Carry on........................


I will bet money that she is MOST LIKELY still reading but not responding because of the beating she is taking from the men folk and some of the women who are berating her.


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> Not man-bashing. Being logical, and presenting things that WORK to resolve whatever issues there are.
> 
> And we, none of us, have any idea what really goes on in their marriage so making assumptions does no good. She should "put out?" Like a hooker? Right.
> 
> Why not just discuss the issues in the marriage that BOTH have and find a real solution?


More good points. 

I see this with Betrayed spouses who are amping up the sex to try to save their marriage. 

It is a reward to do that, not a consequence. 

So sad and degrading.

Based on my reading here, it seems the spouses who get tough and boot the spouse effectively cutting off sex, have the higher reconciliation success rate both male and female.


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> The difference between humans and other animals is we can go beyond instinct and stimulus/response in the way we act. Some people, unfortunately, don't do this consistently.


Ah. Now we have found common ground. 

Yes, as humans we should be able to go beyond instinct. Sexual instincts can be surpassed by love for the spouse.

Yes. they crave sexual union instinctually but are evolved enough to realize their love overrides instinct. 

See, we agree. 

As many women who stay with men who have ED and don't leave or cheat. 

BTW: Do your homework please. ED can be solely psychological, too.


----------



## johnnycomelately

DTO said:


> The folks here on TAM take a mindset that sex is always important in marriage. And that sex is not just procreation sex or sex with a "purpose". We mean recreational sex where you please yourself (hopefully) and your partner (a must) because it's most likely important to one of you and the marriage is about caring for that other as much as yourself, not interrupting that simply human regard with value judgments.


'Recreation' sounds frivolous. Sex plays an important role in bonding and conflict reduction too. You talk about animals and sex, but in fact most mammals have sex a lot less often than humans do. Sex has become an integral part of our social structure and without it marriage is meaningless. 

Every person has a right to a decent sex life within a marriage and the onus is on the OP to get help if she can't live up to her side of the marriage contract.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Sara8 said:


> Yes, as humans we should be able to go beyond instinct. Sexual instincts can be surpassed by love for the spouse
> .


Actually lower animals have sex much less often than humans do. Sex for bonding is a trait of more sophisticated mammals like us, bonobos, chimps and gibbons. 

Sex is part of the marriage contract, without it the deprived partner is justified in ending the marriage, because the other partner is breaking the contract.


----------



## Another Planet

LookingForTheSun said:


> * So getting an erection is not sexual satisfaction? Or is satisfaction only the last few seconds?*


*

WHAT!!! Getting an erection is not sexually satisfiing, actually it can potentially be the beggining of a very frustrating and agonizing day.*


----------



## Holland

Sara8 said:


> No, I decidely don't have ANY LESBIAN friends.
> 
> And, that is likely why I can't relate.
> 
> I have nothing against lesbians, but the idea of doing it with another women definitely grosses me out.
> 
> I guess that's why I don't have lesbian friends and would not be happy with hands and mouth only and the fact that my partner could not ejaculate.
> 
> BTW: Thank you for clarifying that I am heterosexual and to some degree making my point.


You don't have to have any lesbian friends to relate to sex other than PIV. 
Mouth, hands, toys, mutual masturbation, mind sex, heavy breathing and deep, long kissing. I could easily live off all this and more if my guy had ED. I adore him and we do not limit our sexual life to just PIV. We can hug, kiss and caress each other and consider that extremely satisfying.

Closed minded or self limiting sex no doubt contributes to many peoples lack of desire.


----------



## DTO

DTO said:


> Hi again Sara,
> 
> Your sarcasm aside, I stand by my analysis. I'll reiterate that LD is an emotional / mental thing. It does not dictate action. In that way, it is distinctly different than ED which does not respond to treatment. That is a physical inability to perform.
> 
> The difference between humans and other animals is we can go beyond instinct and stimulus/response in the way we act. Some people, unfortunately, don't do this consistently.
> 
> Your friend's LD did not automatically lead to low sexual activity because, again, we humans do not just react. Her LD _plus a willingness to indulge her LD state_ led to her refusing sex. At some point, she decided that her needs or comfort were _more_ important than his, or her discomfort with sex was greater than his without it. If she had simply resolved that her his needs were as important as hers (and she would act on that basis), the sexual activity would not have been so low.
> 
> I've made a few observations of your belief system (based on your posts) that might explain why you seem so out of touch with the other posters:
> 
> 1) Your initial claim is that sex is held out as more important than it should be. But following posts reveal a sense that sex is simply unimportant - men should be willing to live without it. It's a matter of degree, admittedly.
> 
> 2) Your view of proper sex is very rigid. You speak of "good, old-fashioned sex" (intercourse) and note that manual sex, oral sex, and toys are akin to "masturbation". This sounds like someone who devalues experimentation and variety, and maybe holds to religious / cultish views on "good" sex and "bad" sex.
> 
> 3) You speak of sex being unimportant over the long term. I believe you wrote something about why leave for no sex after 20 years. It's a bit of a reach, but it really sounds like you think the proper role of sex is to procreate. After about 20 years of marriage, more kids generally are not in the picture, and life is busy (raising the kids you do have, tending to house, jobs), so why bother?
> 
> The folks here on TAM take a mindset that sex is always important in marriage. And that sex is not just procreation sex or sex with a "purpose". We mean recreational sex where you please yourself (hopefully) and your partner (a must) because it's most likely important to one of you and the marriage is about caring for that other as much as yourself, not interrupting that simply human regard with value judgments.


I'll also add that your views on sex are very "black and white". Apparently a "good" husband is okay with little or no sex. OTOH, a man who places a priority on sex seems to be automatically deemed a sex fiend who is using his wife. He is not a guy who takes good care of his wife and wants a little back, for instance.

Have you even considered that a guy can have sex and other needs, all of which need to be met for him to feel fulfilled (guys are complex too)? Or, is your problem that guys (and some women, too) consider bad sex a deal-breaker?

I like to use the analogy of a car. A car needs several things to be serviceable: an engine, a gear system to get that power to the wheels, and steering and brakes to control the car, for instance. The absence of any one of these makes any car a bad car; they must all be present. Think of sex the same way - by itself not sufficient, but by its lack a deal-breaker.


----------



## Sara8

johnnycomelately said:


> Actually lower animals have sex much less often than humans do. Sex for bonding is a trait of more sophisticated mammals like us, bonobos, chimps and gibbons.
> 
> Sex is part of the marriage contract, without it the deprived partner is justified in ending the marriage, because the other partner is breaking the contract.



You are comparing humans to bonobos and chimps and gibbons.......nuff said. :awink:


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> I like to use the analogy of a car. A car needs several things to be serviceable: an engine, a gear system to get that power to the wheels, and steering and brakes to control the car, for instance. The absence of any one of these makes any car a bad car; they must all be present. Think of sex the same way - by itself not sufficient, but by its lack a deal-breaker.


You are comparing your wife and sex to a car?

Oh brother. :slap:

Last time I checked my Mercedes convertible, as sexy as it looks, had no brain or sex organs.


----------



## Sara8

Holland said:


> You don't have to have any lesbian friends to relate to sex other than PIV.
> Mouth, hands, toys, mutual masturbation, mind sex, heavy breathing and deep, long kissing. I could easily live off all this and more if my guy had ED. I adore him and we do not limit our sexual life to just PIV. We can hug, kiss and caress each other and consider that extremely satisfying.
> 
> Closed minded or self limiting sex no doubt contributes to many peoples lack of desire.


Actually the scientists who study human sexual response are on my side. 

Might you be closed minded. 

Or aren't you aware of the studies that show that sex without penetration or ejaculation is not as emotionally satisfying for women.

And, that's probably why being lesbian holds no interest for me and actually makes me feel queasy. I am attracted to men. 

Ugh just ugh. The mere thought of Sex with a woman grosses me out.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Sara8 said:


> More good points.
> 
> *I see this with Betrayed spouses who are amping up the sex to try to save their marriage. * Now we have moved the topic to those darn betrayed spouses again who decide to stay in the marriage and work through it rather than pack up and leave. OK - so let me speak from my POV being a betrayed spouse - there is no shame in my game. I am married to the man and can have sex as much as I want - in fact - it was pretty darn hot last night and lets just say that needs to be saved for the weekends or we will never be productive at work the next day - my experience - I am not trying to save my marriage - my marriage is saved - we are now at the point where we are enjoying again what we once did and appreciating each other more and living life to the fullest like we should have been in the first place.
> 
> *It is a reward to do that, not a consequence. * There is no reward in working through an infidelity in marriage for either party - it sucks on all levels - there is pain, shame and devestation - IF THE WS FEELS TRUE REMORSE. That being said, if you are both working on your marriage and are in in for the long hall, if you don't have sex and enjoy each other, you are doing yourselves a HUGE injustice and not helping matters at all. Why stay married to someone you don't plan to or want to have sex with?
> 
> *So sad and degrading.* Degrading if you let yourself feel degraded if your ocontinues to cheat. When you are married to someone, you have every right to have sex with them and there should be no shame. No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> 
> *Based on my reading here, it seems the spouses who get tough and boot the spouse effectively cutting off sex, have the higher reconciliation success rate both male and female.*


 I guess I am of the minority - and that is OK - because I like sex with my husband and I can't get enough.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I think this thread has gone into the weeds. Looks like OP bailed on this thread awhile ago. JMO, but maybe a new thread is needed for the other discussion going on.

OP, not sure if you have bailed for good, but please consider that sex is more than what you think it is. Try to learn more about how your husband views it, because I'm expecting tough times ahead if you two don't figure this out.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Sara8 said:


> Actually the scientists who study human sexual response are on my side.
> 
> Might you be closed minded.
> 
> Or aren't you aware of the studies that show that sex without penetration or ejaculation is not as emotionally satisfying for women.
> 
> And, that's probably why being lesbian holds no interest for me and actually makes me feel queasy. I am attracted to men.
> 
> Ugh just ugh. Sex with a woman grosses me out.


I just read an article this morning of how a woman can have an orgasm just by thinking about it....will have to try - I know lots of men are visually stimulated - however, I am too, and lots of times that plays a role in how hot the sex gets and just a bit of visual can lead to mental images and pictures - lots of talking is definitely hot too. While penetration almost certainly makes for the big O, it is not the main factor, and I am emotionally satisfied during every other second. That's just me.

Maybe I need to move to a different thread.


----------



## Holland

Sara8 said:


> Actually the scientists who study human sexual response are on my side.
> 
> Might you be closed minded.
> 
> *Or aren't you aware of the studies that show that sex without penetration or ejaculation is not as emotionally satisfying for women.*
> 
> And, that's probably why being lesbian holds no interest for me and actually makes me feel queasy. I am attracted to men.
> 
> Ugh just ugh. The mere thought of Sex with a woman grosses me out.


Please quote these studies.

Anecdotally I can tell you without a doubt that sex without penetration or ejaculation are very emotionally and physically satisfying for me personally so I would be keen to see these studies.

Again you are projecting. You come across as very homophobic which is your choice but don't devalue other peoples ability to enjoy all sorts of sex and intimacy because of your choice of lifestyle.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> I will bet money that she is MOST LIKELY still reading but not responding because of the beating she is taking from the men folk and some of the women who are berating her.


Unless she's doing it without logging on... no, she is not still reading. Not since Tuesday afternoon, anyway.


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> No, I decidely don't have ANY LESBIAN friends.
> 
> And, that is likely why I can't relate.
> 
> I have nothing against lesbians, but the idea of doing it with another women definitely grosses me out.
> 
> I guess that's why I don't have lesbian friends and would not be happy with hands and mouth only and the fact that my partner could not ejaculate.
> 
> BTW: Thank you for clarifying that I am heterosexual and to some degree making my point.


What are you even talking about? You don't have any lesbian friends because you like ejaculate? And somehow you saw my post as a reiteration of your heterosexuality? When was my post even about you, your sexual needs, or your hetrosexuality? 

Lawd.


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> You are comparing your wife and sex to a car?
> 
> Oh brother. :slap:
> 
> Last time I checked my Mercedes convertible, as sexy as it looks, had no brain or sex organs.


It's called an analogy.

And clearly you didn't gather the point as he analogized car parts with SEX in a marriage, not his wife.

At this point your obvious bitterness, and all of this vitriol, is offering nothing of substance to this discussion, has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP, and seems to be about your own personal need to vent. I've lost track of the personal insults and poster bashing you're currently doling out. One moment you're attacking other posters for not having a degree in psychology, the next you're protesting (a bit _too_ hard) the sexual tenants of lesbianism. You are all over the map today, but going nowhere fast.

You need to take a seat, catch your breath, and maybe create another thread to expound on your obvious issues.


----------



## SadSamIAm

My guess is that Sara8 has had some issues with men. Not certain, just a guess. After this thread, an educated guess.


----------



## Holland

SadSamIAm said:


> *My guess is that Sara8 has had some issues with men*. Not certain, just a guess. After this thread, an educated guess.


and lesbians and women that enjoy a very well rounded sex life with their men.


----------



## turnera

She's more practical than a lot of the posters here.


----------



## DTO

johnnycomelately said:


> 'Recreation' sounds frivolous. Sex plays an important role in bonding and conflict reduction too. You talk about animals and sex, but in fact most mammals have sex a lot less often than humans do. Sex has become an integral part of our social structure and without it marriage is meaningless.
> 
> Every person has a right to a decent sex life within a marriage and the onus is on the OP to get help if she can't live up to her side of the marriage contract.


I did not mean it to sound frivolous. I agree it's vital to a marriage, for all the reasons you stated.

I merely used the term to describe sex that does not have a "purpose", such as procreation.


----------



## jaquen

Holland said:


> and lesbians and women that enjoy a very well rounded sex life with their men.


Which, when all added together, means a person basically has issues with...themselves.


----------



## DTO

Sara8 said:


> Excellent point, and I agree. Alas, it will elude those who have no understanding of basic psychology and that is likely the majority of society.
> 
> So sad.


Actually I agree as well. I go further and say that you cannot make a woman want it under any circumstances. A guy, no matter how much romancing he does and no matter how special he makes her feel, can make a woman want him. At some point she has to be receptive to the mood and decide to respond.

Sure, sometimes the guy is a jerk, or a lazy lover, or whatever. But, it seems that lots of times the woman walks in with baggage, or has some undiscovered physical issue, etc. But, she can realize that the power is within her to decide to participate regardless (barring physical impossibility, of course).

That is point. All these arguments about women having LD issues, men being lazy lovers, men having psychological ED, etc. only matter when the offender says "and my needs matter more than yours, so I can't be bothered to do anything about it - whether "anything" means getting the appropriate help or simply deciding to but yourself on the back burner once in a while and make your partner the priority (something both partners should do with equal frequency).


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Not a trick. Women usually have to feel loved to want to have sex. Men usually have to have sex to feel loved. If the man has the higher drive, it behooves him - in order to get what *HE wants *- to pay attention to whether she's feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a lower-libido female is still going to want to 'do it' as much as the man. Especially if he's not meeting *HER needs *or is Love Busting her.
> 
> Call it unfair all you like. But it IS human nature and basic psychology. You can't MAKE a woman want it if other issues are going on.


I agree with the sex to love (or love to sex) causality you stated above. But the sole conclusion that men need to pay attention to her love needs to make sure that the sex continues past the "newness" is flawed, because it is one-sided.

I could just as easily say the same thing for something a woman desires more than a man - let's take provision for instance:

"If the _woman_ has the _want to be supported_, it behooves _her_ - in order to get what SHE wants - to pay attention to whether _he's_ feeling the love. Cos once the PEA chemicals filter out after the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship and all you're left with is mental attraction (minus Love Busters), it's not practical to assume a _self-confident male_ is still going to want this _support situation_ as much as the _woman_. Especially if _she's_ not meeting _HIS_ needs or is Love Busting _him_. 

Unless you assume that the woman's viewpoint is more important that the man's, it works both ways. And, yeah, many women (including my ex) will state that the woman should be prioritized over the man - that's why I'm not discounting that possibility in this thread.

The only enduring solution is for both spouses to come to the marriage esteeming their partner equal to themselves, giving from that mindset, and building a virtuous cycle of each doing plentifully for the other. I really don't get any other mindset.

Also, I see in your post that you talked about his needs and her wants. I even highlighted it above - in case you wanted to see it for yourself. I don't know whether it was intentional or unconscious, but the fact that you stated it that way at all is very telling.

I can assure you that what you consider to be wants are actually needs from the viewpoint of the average man. As strong as the average man feels about getting it, I would suggest that the average woman take that need as seriously as her own. Somewhere along the way it became fashionable to devalue men's needs but ignoring the needs of either is relationship death.


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> I agree with the sex to love (or love to sex) causality you stated above. But the sole conclusion that men need to pay attention to her love needs to make sure that the sex continues past the "newness" is flawed, because it is one-sided.


Nope. 

If he meets her needs, she will be HAPPY to meet his for sex. 

And if she isn't, then she has her own issue to deal with, and he may not want to stick around. 

But psychologically speaking, if they both love each other and want to be married, if he meets her needs (and doesn't turn into a Nice Guy), she will be ready and willing for it.


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> Also, I see in your post that you talked about his needs and her wants. I even highlighted it above - in case you wanted to see it for yourself. I don't know whether it was intentional or unconscious, but the fact that you stated it that way at all is very telling.


Fair attempt to distract. But it doesn't change the dynamic here. Men have a biological urge to want it more, in most cases. Women have a biological urge to mate, procreate, and nest. Cavemen didn't last more than 5 or 10 years past procreation, so our bodies weren't set up for long-term bonding. To overcome that, since he DOES have the stronger biological urge and she's less likely to, it just ain't gonna happen unless he does something to get it. Unless he's used to raping his wife.

You can say all you want that a woman 'should' want to please her man all the time and give him sex 3 times a day. But in reality it's not going to happen. And don't even get me started about who's doing 75% of child-rearing and homemaking and is then expected to ALSO put her husband ahead of herself along with the kids, the house, and everything else. 

It's psychologically unrealistic to expect her MIND to drift toward daily "I need to make him happy and feel like sex when I've got 15 other things that have to get done before I get to stop and sit down on the couch and watch tv like he's doing."

One thing my husband HAS learned in 30 years is that, when he wants it that night, he'd better get his butt off the couch and help me with the cooking, the dishes, the dogs, or whatever else has to get done. Cos if I still have 10 other things to do before I can go to bed, he'll be sitting in bed a long time, waiting for them to all get done. And THEN he'll think I'll want to be intimate?


----------



## Another Planet

The onesided man bashing continues. 

I am hearing alot of wants coming from the otherside not alot of needs. Rationalyzing with your wants over his needs is not healthy.

Understand that for the majority of healthy men sex is an emotional NEED. And if it is a need of his and you purposely take that away from him for whatever reason he will not love you anymore. Sooner or later he will also either cheat on you or leave you.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Nope.
> 
> If he meets her needs, she will be HAPPY to meet his for sex.
> 
> And if she isn't, then she has her own issue to deal with, and he may not want to stick around.
> 
> But psychologically speaking, if they both love each other and want to be married, if he meets her needs (and doesn't turn into a Nice Guy), she will be ready and willing for it.


This is absolutely not true. Many women, from what I've read and seen and for a variety of reasons, are happy to just take and not give back. Many more put limitations on what they see as "need" (as in, "he does not need more than intercourse" or "he does not need it more than 2x per month").

I see and here about these issues too much here and IRL to believe that women in these two groups are a small minority (I happen to think it's a rather large minority). And, yeah, these women have their own issues (and their men need to think about leaving). No arguments on this little bit.

The issue is, though, you get really, really few women who agree they have a problem (and fewer who will agree to do something about it - but that's a different topic). Many use this "conventional wisdom" to blame shift.

So, to sum it up, you have seemingly large numbers of refused spouses who can't make any headway in their issues (often despite attempts to romance more, etc.) and you have most refusing spouses saying "I don't need to change". Clearly, there is a disconnect.

The incidence of refusing spouses who say "I don't have a problem" or "I should be treated well without sex", etc. is too high for a blanket statement of "if the man gives well the woman will respond" to be appropriate.


----------



## jaquen

turnera said:


> You can say all you want that a woman 'should' want to please her man all the time and give him sex 3 times a day. But in reality it's not going to happen. And don't even get me started about who's doing 75% of child-rearing and homemaking and is then expected to ALSO put her husband ahead of herself along with the kids, the house, and everything else.
> 
> It's psychologically unrealistic to expect her MIND to drift toward daily "I need to make him happy and feel like sex when I've got 15 other things that have to get done before I get to stop and sit down on the couch and watch tv like he's doing."
> 
> One thing my husband HAS learned in 30 years is that, when he wants it that night, he'd better get his butt off the couch and help me with the cooking, the dishes, the dogs, or whatever else has to get done. Cos if I still have 10 other things to do before I can go to bed, he'll be sitting in bed a long time, waiting for them to all get done. And THEN he'll think I'll want to be intimate?


The woman who thinks like this shouldn't have gotten married. She should have run down to the local sperm bank, gotten a deposit, and created a life and family where she didn't have to worry about her husband's constant cries for sex.

That's a win-win for everybody.

The only point this line of thinking drives home is that a lot of women need, and deserve to be, ALONE.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Fair attempt to distract. But it doesn't change the dynamic here. Men have a biological urge to want it more, in most cases. Women have a biological urge to mate, procreate, and nest. Cavemen didn't last more than 5 or 10 years past procreation, so our bodies weren't set up for long-term bonding. To overcome that, since he DOES have the stronger biological urge and she's less likely to, it just ain't gonna happen unless he does something to get it. Unless he's used to raping his wife.
> 
> You can say all you want that a woman 'should' want to please her man all the time and give him sex 3 times a day. But in reality it's not going to happen. And don't even get me started about who's doing 75% of child-rearing and homemaking and is then expected to ALSO put her husband ahead of herself along with the kids, the house, and everything else.
> 
> It's psychologically unrealistic to expect her MIND to drift toward daily "I need to make him happy and feel like sex when I've got 15 other things that have to get done before I get to stop and sit down on the couch and watch tv like he's doing."
> 
> One thing my husband HAS learned in 30 years is that, when he wants it that night, he'd better get his butt off the couch and help me with the cooking, the dishes, the dogs, or whatever else has to get done. Cos if I still have 10 other things to do before I can go to bed, he'll be sitting in bed a long time, waiting for them to all get done. And THEN he'll think I'll want to be intimate?


I agree that the biological urge for sex is as you state. All I'm saying is that the woman needs to apply the golden rule. Before you say "I don't feel like sex so I won't have it", imagine what it will be like to be refused what you DO want, for lack of sex. My take-away from your posts is that you believe that the guy should give first and if she does not respond then he must have done something wrong. Faulty assumptions both.

And, yes, the guy should not sit on his butt while his wife slaves around the home - he should be just as busy as she, whether out making a living or alongside her at home. If your dymanic is that way, that sucks, but you are in a tiny minority if that is the case. Of all the married couples I know at least fairly well (dozens) there is maybe one where the guy just sits on his ass.

Neither I nor anyone I associate with regularly is that way.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

DTO said:


> I ... say that you cannot make a woman want it under any circumstances. A guy, no matter how much romancing he does and no matter how special he makes her feel, can make a woman want him. At some point she has to be receptive to the mood and decide to respond.
> 
> Sure, sometimes the guy is a jerk, or a lazy lover, or whatever. But, it seems that lots of times the woman walks in with baggage, or has some undiscovered physical issue, etc. But, she can realize that the power is within her to decide to participate regardless (barring physical impossibility, of course).


Thanks DTO. In a relationship between two mature adults (if such a thing exists) each partner would understand that they can't make the other feel or want anything. Both partners would own their individual feelings and accept the consequences of their own actions. Making the man responsible for his wife's feelings and actions (or lack thereof) is promoting the idea of a controlling type of relationship and a perpetuates the immature attitude of making someone else responsible for how one feels.

Estimates are that 25-35% of American women are sexually abused in childhood. A utilitarian "hook-up" culture that is prevalent today in young adults live leaves women feeling used and worse. These are just two of the many reasons why a woman might arrive in a marriage situation with an unhealthy attitude towards sex. However natural it may be to see one's partner as the cause of one's feelings through their action or inaction, blaming one's partner does not make for a strong, growing, satisfying marriage.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> It's psychologically unrealistic to expect her MIND to drift toward daily "I need to make him happy and feel like sex when I've got 15 other things that have to get done before I get to stop and sit down on the couch and watch tv like he's doing."


Excellent point. Anyone who relies on drifting has no chance at all that they will find themselves prioritizing their spouse over their other responsibilities. There has to be something more in effect


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

jaquen said:


> She should have run down to the local sperm bank, gotten a deposit, and created a life and family where she didn't have to worry about her husband's constant cries for sex.
> 
> That's a win-win for everybody.


I may be on thin ice here but I'm not sure this is a big win for the kid


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> If he meets her needs, she will be HAPPY to meet his for sex.
> 
> And if she isn't, then she has her own issue to deal with, and he may not want to stick around.


With all due respect, I'm not aware of any criteria for rightful behavior that advocates treating unfairness with more unfairness and it is clearly unfair to leave someone just because they have issues.


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> This is absolutely not true. Many women, from what I've read and seen and for a variety of reasons, are happy to just take and not give back..


Talk about gender bashing.


----------



## agreenbough

I'm still stuck on the poster who claimed men need sex for EMOTIONAL closeness, and then said, "who watches more porn?" So they're watching porn for emotional closeness......with who, exactly.....

Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....

You're trying to make women feel like there's something wrong with them for not being like men. If my only value to my husband, after having his children and taking care of everything else for 25 years, is as a sex toy, all that says to me is that HE doesn't love me, he just wasnt access to my body. That's not love. It wasn't a bait and switch - that falling in love feeling is transient. 

All I'm hearing here is "you won't give what I want, you're so selfish wah wah wah."


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Talk about gender bashing.


It's not bashing. It's just repeating what I (and many others) have read time and again here.


----------



## turnera

And I can bring just as many stories of horndog men who expect their wives to do all the housework and childraising and still be ready for sex at the drop of a hat.

meh


----------



## DTO

agreenbough said:


> I'm still stuck on the poster who claimed men need sex for EMOTIONAL closeness, and then said, "who watches more porn?" So they're watching porn for emotional closeness......with who, exactly.....
> 
> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....
> 
> You're trying to make women feel like there's something wrong with them for not being like men. If my only value to my husband, after having his children and taking care of everything else for 25 years, is as a sex toy, all that says to me is that HE doesn't love me, he just wasnt access to my body. That's not love. It wasn't a bait and switch - that falling in love feeling is transient.
> 
> All I'm hearing here is "you won't give what I want, you're so selfish wah wah wah."


First of all, you did not have his children. You had your (plural) children.

Then, if that's the way you take his sex drive, that is on you. I guarantee you that getting sex is not all that is important to you. Screw him plenty yet curse him out or drive your family into bankruptcy and he'll likely still leave at some point. Yes, sex is vital to many if not most men. But you try to falsely say that it's ALL that men want, which is simply not true.

Also, you act like during those 25 years he was just coasting along and you were doing all the hard work. Try something different. Understand that for the first 25 years he was working just as hard as you were, sacrificing just as much for the family.

I'll bet that if you really internalized that reality (meaning really got that men don't skate but generally work just as hard as the women) then you'd see that your argument falls apart. It's just easier to tell yourself that your man had it easy while you did the real hard work.

How would you feel if your man said "sweetie, I'm simply tired of grinding away day and night. I worked hard and was apart from my family 50 to 60 hours a week for decades to support you and the children. They're out of the home and care for themselves. My drive to go out every day and navigate the workplace is gone.

So, I won't be making that nice vacation. We'll get a small apartment somewhere - this nice home does not do it for me any more. You won't starve, but if you want more than what I give you'll have to do for yourself.

If you really loved me you would sacrifice these ultimately unimportant material things and find a way to be happy with what I'm willing to provide."


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> And I can bring just as many stories of horndog men who expect their wives to do all the housework and childraising and still be ready for sex at the drop of a hat.
> 
> meh


Look, we are not getting anywhere.

At the end of the day, I will continue to insist that men and women need to come to the table and be equally considerate of each other's needs. They need to not pass judgment but instead just provide equally for each other.

You will continue to insist that the man needs to give first and wait for his woman to respond. You will also continue to insist that the man generally should accept less sex and not insist on having his needs viewed as equally important.

Me: he wants it every other day and she wants it once per month means that 2x per week is a reasonable compromise.

You: he should be happy if she goes 2x per month.

We will never get past this foundational difference over the importance of sex in marriage and of men's needs in general.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

agreenbough said:


> I'm still stuck on the poster who claimed men need sex for EMOTIONAL closeness, and then said, "who watches more porn?" So they're watching porn for emotional closeness......with who, exactly.....
> 
> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....
> 
> You're trying to make women feel like there's something wrong with them for not being like men. If my only value to my husband, after having his children and taking care of everything else for 25 years, is as a sex toy, all that says to me is that HE doesn't love me, he just wasnt access to my body. That's not love. It wasn't a bait and switch - that falling in love feeling is transient.
> 
> All I'm hearing here is "you won't give what I want, you're so selfish wah wah wah."


Wait a sec... Are you responding to this thread in the context of the OP or are you responding to the big debate that began after this thread was hijacked for a "battle of the sexes"? If you're responding to the "battle of the sexes" then never mind because this argument in this thread is pointless. However, if you are responding to what the OP has posted, then you can't make such a wide sweeping statement without getting more facts. We don't know if the husband is a "sexual beast" that is manipulating the OP into performing all the time or if the OP is basically not engaging in sex at all with her husband and he desired to have sex with his wife. Either extreme in the previous sentence is wrong and a happy medium needs to be reached.


----------



## Another Planet

agreenbough said:


> I'm still stuck on the poster who claimed men need sex for EMOTIONAL closeness, and then said, "who watches more porn?" So they're watching porn for emotional closeness......with who, exactly.....
> 
> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....
> 
> *You're trying to make women feel like there's something wrong with them for not being like men*. If my only value to my husband, after having his children and taking care of everything else for 25 years, is as a sex toy, all that says to me is that HE doesn't love me, he just wasnt access to my body. That's not love. It wasn't a bait and switch - that falling in love feeling is transient.
> 
> All I'm hearing here is "you won't give what I want, you're so selfish wah wah wah."


No that isn't the point, there is something wrong with the relationship and maybe divorce should be considered.


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> At the end of the day, I will continue to insist that men and women need to come to the table and be equally considerate of each other's needs. They need to not pass judgment but instead just provide equally for each other.
> 
> You will continue to insist that the man needs to give first and wait for his woman to respond.


Hmmm..I said:


> If he meets her needs, she will be HAPPY to meet his for sex.


Same thing you said. 

YOU just don't like that I said, if he wants it _more than she does_, he has to make sure he IS meeting her needs.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Hmmm..I said:
> Same thing you said.
> 
> YOU just don't like that I said, if he wants it _more than she does_, he has to make sure he IS meeting her needs.


I think you misunderstood what I said.

To clarify, I don't agree that if a man meets a woman's needs she will respond to sexually. I think that is the way it should be, provided that the wait for the man is short. IOW, if I am treating my wife well every day, then getting sex every day or every other day should not be a problem. If my needs matter as much as hers and she is getting those needs met daily, why should I not be entitled to the same frequency as her?

I don't believe that, in reality, one can assume the woman getting her needs met leads to the man getting his needs met. Too often, that process gets short-circuited by refusers having baggage, using sex as a weapon, or negating the validity of the need (as in "you don't need sex that often"). Just looking at all these posts should see that this process is circumvented all too often. If I am the man not getting enough sex, it's just as reasonable to look at my wife as myself as being the problem.

My advice to couples having this problem is simple - give to each other simultaneous. The refuser (man or woman) should not wait until that loving feeling is present to provide sex - that implies a "before" and an "after" and devalues one person's perspective. The refuser needs to communicate the need and, once the request is being fulfilled, meet the other's need without waiting for that loving feeling to return. IOW, it's the perspective of "love is an act, not a feeling".

A refusing spouse (man or woman) taking my advice would have a thought process like this: "my spouse is not happy with the sex life. That is a problem for the marriage, and thus a problem for me. My spouse is doing the things that I have requested, so it is not fair for me to get what I want and hold back on what I provide in return. I am going to do what he or she wants sexually, as long as I am getting what I request, until I can figure out why my emotional response is lagging."

That's the only fair way. At that point the refuser has two good choices: give more or take less. Continuing to get what you want without giving back equally is unacceptable.


----------



## jaquen

agreenbough said:


> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal.


Bull**** that low-to-no desire women tell themselves to feel better.

It's not all womankind. It's YOU. _Plenty_ of women crave and adore sex. They're not sitting around whining about men being sex fiends, and complaining that healthy, virile men, GASP!, actually want sex on a regular basis. Don't lump them in with the sexless lot just because tons of women are totally disconnected from their own sexuality.

Because the hilarious thing is that many of those so called LD partners have no problem rocking out to a virbrator, or other sex toy, a couple times a week.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Hmmm..I said:
> Same thing you said.
> 
> YOU just don't like that I said, if he wants it _more than she does_, he has to make sure he IS meeting her needs.


There is another reason your suggestion here is not realistic. According to your view, if the woman feels loved, she will meet her man's need. The logical extension of that viewpoint is that there are no genuinely Low Drive women.

If every woman would respond to feeling loved by meeting her man's need, then the only reasons for a woman not doing so are she is not being loved the way she wants or she has "issues" (as you put it) that need resolution. IOW, every well-adjusted woman is a tigress waiting to come out and ravish her man will all the sex he needs to feel loved, right?

How do reconcile your viewpoint with one like from Sara8, who says that the woman may not want to meet the man's sexual need regardless of how well he treats her, and he should be all right with not getting it met?


----------



## jaquen

The more time I spend here, the more I am convinced:

A a lot of people on TAM _really _need to get laid.


----------



## 45188

There are some seriously selfish posts in this thread. It takes 15 minutes. The more you turn him on, the quicker he'll be done. Sex is a basic need. I don't understand why this thread has gone on this long, haha..


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

agreenbough said:


> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....


See if you can find another doctor because there are plenty of them, male and female, who are more than happy to help


----------



## DTO

kipani said:


> There are some seriously selfish posts in this thread. It takes 15 minutes. The more you turn him on, the quicker he'll be done. Sex is a basic need. I don't understand why this thread has gone on this long, haha..


Exactly. I've noted before that in 90 minutes a week (less than 1% of that week) you could rock your spouse's world three times and have time to clean up afterwards.

If you have even a decent spouse (not great), and you can't do what they want for 90 minutes (and that means no "that's gross" or "you want what?") then you have a serious problem.


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said.
> 
> To clarify, I don't agree that if a man meets a woman's needs she will respond to sexually. I think that is the way it should be, provided that the wait for the man is short. IOW, if I am treating my wife well every day, then getting sex every day or every other day should not be a problem. If my needs matter as much as hers and she is getting those needs met daily, why should I not be entitled to the same frequency as her?


Because part of 'wanting' sex is a mental process. Mixed in with a fiercely personal bodily function. One which girls are usually raised to be somewhat conservative about. So YOU have a DRIVE that PUSHES you (via erection, etc.) to WANT it all the time and thus you have an urge to satisfy it. The typical woman wants it when her heart and mind are combined, and it becomes this weird combination of things, including happy to be wanted, wanting to please the man, but also ensuring (in the back of her subconscious) that she's not going to labeled a wh*re, or whatever goes through her mind. 

It's not like how boys are raised, to go out there and find anything they can stick their you know what in, and then laugh about it. Girls are raised to look at it as something special, to be shared with someone special, and for it to be USED as something special, not just to satisfy a bodily urge. So when a guy starts pushing her for 3 times a day or even every day, she's working overtime in her head to rationalize it. 

Now, maybe if BOTH of you are truly sharing chores 50% across the board, and she doesn't really end up doing stuff while you're hanging around watching tv or hanging with friends, if you cook every other meal and bake half the cookies, if she has JUST as much free time as you do...maybe she can come at this with just as much playfulness as you do. But I doubt that happens very often.


----------



## jaquen

If you are married, and pleasing your spouse isn't anywhere near the top of your "to do" list, the question is simple:

Why are you married?


----------



## turnera

Because people make adjustments. Because people have more than one top need and she may be pleasing her spouse by meeting 9 of his 10 top needs and the 10th one (sex) she may be meeting only half as often as he wants - which of course will never be as often as he wants but plenty for her, given that she's a female and has a female's biological drive.

It's a fair bet that if a woman has stopped having sex with her husband, something's not going great on HER end, either.


----------



## turnera

The bottom line is that women are NEVER going to turn into people with drives as high as the men, generally speaking (always exceptions). It's biological and it's psychological.

You can whine about it all day long or blame women til the cows come home but at the end of the day, most women will STILL not want it as much. Nothing's going to change that truth. All you can do is deal with that truth the best you can in your relationship.


----------



## jaquen

Marriage is a lot of wonderful things.

But sex is the major factor that differentiates a marriage from close friendships, or comfortable companions.

If a woman enters into a marriage with the delusion that sex will magically become unimportant, or of little importance, than she should not be married.

If a woman knows going in that she has a low drive, then she should be upfront with her man about that so he can decide if that's what he wants to handle.

If a woman gets to a point in her marriage where she has little to no sexual desire left for her husband, but he still has desire for her, and sex in general, than she should divorce him.

Before anybody comes back with talk of all the other important factors in marriage, save yourself the effort; I know. But this discussion is about sex, so I'm going to stay on topic.

The bottom line is that too many women have too many damn excuses surrounding why they "can't" devote, per week, the time it takes to watch a movie to making love to the so called loves of their lives.

If you don't want sex any more, assuming you ever wanted it to begin with, then get out. Release your man to find a woman who actually is interested in sex, and find yourself one who isn't, another woman, or enjoy the non-demanding pleasures of singledom.

And please spare me the "almost all women are LD" excuse. That isn't even largely backed up by science. And interestingly enough, the erotic/romantic novel business is booming, and vibrators and other sex toys for women are flying off the shelves.


----------



## Kasler

This thread is a disgrace, a mod should seriously close this. 

Way off topic, OP left, and just a coat rack to hang projections now.


----------



## krismimo

OK OK TIME OUT TIME OUT TIME OUT.... @Tunera and others I understand that are studies and books and all that good stuff but the problem I have is you all are speaking as though most or all women feel this way and that is not true because I dont agree with half the things your saying. Second we can all be adults here but I dont think calling people names, being a bully and trying to belittle points of view because you dont agree not only is childish but that is NOT practical.


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## krismimo

Just speak as a person not for men kind, not for women kind just personal experinces that is all we can do, that is all we should do because trying to speak on behalf of everyone else is not getting anwhere.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Because part of 'wanting' sex is a mental process. Mixed in with a fiercely personal bodily function. One which girls are usually raised to be somewhat conservative about. So YOU have a DRIVE that PUSHES you (via erection, etc.) to WANT it all the time and thus you have an urge to satisfy it. The typical woman wants it when her heart and mind are combined, and it becomes this weird combination of things, including happy to be wanted, wanting to please the man, but also ensuring (in the back of her subconscious) that she's not going to labeled a wh*re, or whatever goes through her mind.
> 
> It's not like how boys are raised, to go out there and find anything they can stick their you know what in, and then laugh about it. Girls are raised to look at it as something special, to be shared with someone special, and for it to be USED as something special, not just to satisfy a bodily urge. So when a guy starts pushing her for 3 times a day or even every day, she's working overtime in her head to rationalize it.
> 
> Now, maybe if BOTH of you are truly sharing chores 50% across the board, and she doesn't really end up doing stuff while you're hanging around watching tv or hanging with friends, if you cook every other meal and bake half the cookies, if she has JUST as much free time as you do...maybe she can come at this with just as much playfulness as you do. But I doubt that happens very often.


You know, I think we're getting somewhere here.

I completely agree that those things can dampen a woman's drive. I would argue that not only are sometimes women taught to be conservative about it, but sometimes they are taught that their sexuality is dirty. And it's sad.

I recall when my daughter was a toddler she came out of the bath naked (as kids do sometimes). My ex told her "you need to hide your shame". I shut her down on the spot and made it clear she was not to refer to my daughter's body in that manner. But, how often do kids hear that and internalize it?

But, to me that's not a reason to expect less than I give. That's a reason for the woman to unlearn previous bad habits and pre-conceptions and learn to see sex as a good thing. I doubt you'll agree with that, but where it is. Isn't that a better altnernative than tiptoeing around her sexual shame issues?

What should make my wife know she's not a ***** and that it's special is that it's with me. Nothing else is necessary. If our young ladies don't understand that, then their parents have failed them. But, again, that's no reason to let that condition persist indefinitely.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> Now, maybe if BOTH of you are truly sharing chores 50% across the board, and she doesn't really end up doing stuff while you're hanging around watching tv or hanging with friends, if you cook every other meal and bake half the cookies, if she has JUST as much free time as you do...maybe she can come at this with just as much playfulness as you do. But I doubt that happens very often.


That's a big maybe and I just don't buy it. I can say with authority that households in which neither spouse ever picked up a dish or a washcloth and both partners have and abundance of discretionary time face exactly the same problems, maybe even more so


----------



## turnera

DTO said:


> then their parents have failed them. But, again, that's no reason to let that condition persist indefinitely.


 The thing is, they DID. And you don't just turn that off. You're a guy, you think you just push ahead til you achieve something. Psychological issues don't work that way.

And you're still not understanding. 

For the typical woman, whose sex drive wanes as she starts having kids (and biologically/mentally shifts to nesting), she DOESN'T WANT SEX as much as the man. 

YOU still want it because your upbringing AND body push you to. 

But for the typical woman, choosing to still have it 3 times a day is NOT the kind of release or thing to look forward to like it is the man; she doesn't have a biological urge pushing her to find release. 

It is not the same mindset. And you can't MAKE it the same. You just can't. She will NEVER look at getting it 3 times a day the way you do. She just won't. 

And, therefore, DOING it 3 times a day requires a higher level of commitment, choice, and, yes, pushing herself to do something outside her norm. So you are telling her that if she loves you, SHE will therefore maintain an artificial level of commitment that she WOULD NOT CHOOSE if it weren't just to please you. That's akin to her telling you that you had to ... IDK, go to Chuck E Cheese 3 times a day for the next 40 years. Sure, you may be able to find enjoyment in it, if you HAD to. But you sure as hell would not enjoy the quality of your life.

I'm not saying women don't want to. At all. I'm saying you need to understand that, psychologically, you are asking the woman to go BEYOND her biological/mental comfort zone to 'be' this person you want her to be, when she is also dealing with being the person who never turns off for the kids/house/family, as is typical for women. Generally speaking, of course. So, there SHE is, pushing herself every day to be what you want of her, while you aren't. And, if she doesn't, you label her selfish, lazy, a user, self-centered...


----------



## turnera

Ten_year_hubby said:


> That's a big maybe and I just don't buy it. I can say with authority that households in which neither spouse ever picked up a dish or a washcloth and both partners have and abundance of discretionary time face exactly the same problems, maybe even more so


 I would love to see a study that shows how many men REALLY contribute at least 50% to ALL chores.

And those households you refer to had other issues going on.


----------



## krismimo

I agree with you ten yr hubby we cant fit most people in a mold and say hey thats the majority.....


----------



## Pseudonymousse

noturtypicalwoman said:


> Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
> Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
> This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "_now_ can we have sex??" every day?
> Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....
> 
> Anyone?



I'm a girl and considered to be a prude by pretty much everyone who knows me. So with that in mind...

Sex is very important to a healthy, close and comforting marriage. Men and Women are turned on differently. Unless there's a medical reason behind it, I think the reason why you think sex is overrated is because there's something else wrong. If you're under stress, or perhaps your relationship is under some stress, it can greatly affect your desire to be physical with him.

He's definitely not helping his cause by whining about it, for sure! 

If you want my advise, I would say revamp your relationship. Forget sex for the sake of sex, and get attracted to each other all over again. Get to know your husband all over again. Let him get to know the now 4-years-married woman that is you. Go on dates, play sports together, do things you both love to do and do things only he or only you love to do. Rebuild your attraction and respect towards one another and I'm sure sex will follow.

I think sex is the physical communication of the mental and emotional connection. You sound like you just need to reconnect.


----------



## Holland

turnera said:


> The bottom line is that women are NEVER going to turn into people with drives as high as the men, generally speaking (always exceptions). It's biological and it's psychological.
> 
> You can whine about it all day long or blame women til the cows come home but at the end of the day, most women will STILL not want it as much. Nothing's going to change that truth. All you can do is deal with that truth the best you can in your relationship.


I just don't see this in my circle of friends, if anything the women have equal or higher desire. And look at all the posts on TAM from women who's partners are the LD spouse.



> Because part of 'wanting' sex is a mental process. Mixed in with a fiercely personal bodily function. One which girls are usually raised to be somewhat conservative about.


and herein lies the problem. It is not biological it is upbringing. So now all these women that are sexually repressed are raising the next generation. Now is the time to break these ridiculous gender stereotypes.

No matter what peoples views are on this I can say from experience that sex issues in a marriage are devastating emotionally. Don't raise your kids to continue the cycle.


----------



## Pseudonymousse

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think this is important. For many (most?) men sex is the way we feel love and the way we express love. So if he is not getting sex, even though you "say" you love him he won't feel it and certainly won't know it. Rather, he will begin to doubt it. You know the saying "actions speak louder than words"? When it comes to feeling loved, sex is about the only action. And no amount of other action or words will convince him.



Ya know, I don't know why people keep saying that? That men feel loved through sex. I always thought so too until I met my husband. He *says* he wants sex after every time we do it (which is perhaps once every few months, and we're relatively newly married), but then he lets months pass by before he tries anything again. Yes I know, I can try to instigate it too, right? But he keeps himself busy by being on facebook, youtube, on video call with his family, etc. The days he works he complains that he's tired, and the days he doesn't work, he doesn't come to bed until I'm faaaaast asleep (he'll stay up at night on fb, youtube or skyping, or calling his family members). This is the guy who tells me constantly that he can't stay awake at night he needs his 10hours beauty sleep or he gets sick, etc. And when do *do* it, well... he needs constant encouragement to stay in the game if you know what I mean. And the sad part is, I don't know enough about sex to offer that encouragement. Jeez, sometimes I wonder if he's gay?


----------



## turnera

Holland said:


> It is not biological it is upbringing.


No. It IS biological. AND upbringing. 

As I said, I'm speaking generalizations but I've been reading about this for 40 years and nearly every single source will tell you that men have a higher biological drive.


----------



## turnera

Holland said:


> So now all these women that are sexually repressed are raising the next generation. Now is the time to break these ridiculous gender stereotypes.


By making them have sex when they don't want it?


----------



## krismimo

So basically it is still a guess an assumption is really a guess.


----------



## Holland

turnera said:


> By making them have sex when they don't want it?


No, and don't put words into my mouth. I am a woman and resent that you feel you can speak for me or other women in the way you have been.

I am talking about raising emotionally balanced future adults which is exactly what I am doing with my kids. They have the right to fully explore who they are sexually, to give and receive respect and to live sexually fulfilling lives as adults.

There is too much talk about tit for tat, he does this so she will do that, she does this so he will do that. This is not a competition which seems to be how some approach their marriages and sex lives. No gender is more or less to blame but everyone has a *responsibility *to themselves and their partners to quit this shutting down, playing the blame game, instead just sit down and listen with love to their partners. 

I would like to know how many marriages are truly happy when the sex side of it is dysfunctional. I am betting not many. Therefore this issues needs to be approached without the use of blame and for adults to sit down and talk to each other without fear of reprisals.


----------



## Holland

turnera said:


> No. *It IS biological. AND upbringing.*
> 
> As I said, I'm speaking generalizations but I've been reading about this for 40 years and nearly every single source will tell you that men have a higher biological drive.


And the same can be said for men that are LD, I look at the family my LD ex came from. His issues sure do come from upbringing which is a parallel friends of mine in similar situations have come to recognise. Upbringing is paramount to raising sexually and emotionally healthy adults. We can do something about upbringing so surely this is a major consideration and one that parents should embrace and work with.


----------



## krismimo

Holland than you for pointing that out because I too felt that she was speaking for most/all women and I strongly disagree with Tunera.


----------



## Another Planet

Pseudonymousse said:


> Ya know, I don't know why people keep saying that? That men feel loved through sex. I always thought so too until I met my husband. He *says* he wants sex after every time we do it (which is perhaps once every few months, and we're relatively newly married), but then he lets months pass by before he tries anything again. Yes I know, I can try to instigate it too, right? But he keeps himself busy by being on facebook, youtube, on video call with his family, etc. The days he works he complains that he's tired, and the days he doesn't work, he doesn't come to bed until I'm faaaaast asleep (he'll stay up at night on fb, youtube or skyping, or calling his family members). This is the guy who tells me constantly that he can't stay awake at night he needs his 10hours beauty sleep or he gets sick, etc. And when do *do* it, well... he needs constant encouragement to stay in the game if you know what I mean. And the sad part is, I don't know enough about sex to offer that encouragement. Jeez, sometimes I wonder if he's gay?


I would kinda start to be concerned if I were you.


----------



## Pseudonymousse

Another Planet said:


> I would kinda start to be concerned if I were you.


I am concerned ... I just don't know how to tackle it. We of course have other problems which I'm debating about if I should post or not, that is contributing to this sexless marriage.


----------



## jaquen

I'm totally confused about where this "3 times a day" number is coming from.

:scratchhead:


----------



## Another Planet

Pseudonymousse said:


> I am concerned ... I just don't know how to tackle it. We of course have other problems which I'm debating about if I should post or not, that is contributing to this sexless marriage.


I would if I were you. That is why you are here isn't it, to get some help? Start a thread of your own, lets see what you have to say.


----------



## Another Planet

jaquen said:


> I'm totally confused about where this "3 times a day" number is coming from.
> 
> :scratchhead:


I have noticed that also. I just assumed she is totally projecting, looking for someone to back up her idea of her sexless marriage.


----------



## Holland

jaquen said:


> I'm totally confused about where this "3 times a day" number is coming from.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Yeah even I am not up for that :rofl: But we are having pre sex all day, we talk, cuddle, kiss, just hang out together enjoying each other in non sexual ways.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> And, therefore, DOING it 3 times a day requires a higher level of commitment, choice, and, yes, pushing herself to do something outside her norm. So you are telling her that if she loves you, SHE will therefore maintain an artificial level of commitment that she WOULD NOT CHOOSE if it weren't just to please you. That's akin to her telling you that you had to ... IDK, go to Chuck E Cheese 3 times a day for the next 40 years. Sure, you may be able to find enjoyment in it, if you HAD to. But you sure as hell would not enjoy the quality of your life.
> 
> I'm not saying women don't want to. At all. I'm saying you need to understand that, psychologically, you are asking the woman to go BEYOND her biological/mental comfort zone to 'be' this person you want her to be, when she is also dealing with being the person who never turns off for the kids/house/family, as is typical for women. Generally speaking, of course. So, there SHE is, pushing herself every day to be what you want of her, while you aren't. And, if she doesn't, you label her selfish, lazy, a user, self-centered...


Actually, I see more common ground here.

I would actually note that no one here is asking for sex three times a day. If anyone here (man or woman) came with the complaint "my spouse has sex with me daily but it still isn't what I need" he or she would be shut down quick by even the most pro-sex person (and I would head that effort).

Now then... (and using me as an example, as it's easier to write this way) I freely admit I told my ex to stretch herself and strive to meet my need. Why? Because I busted my ass every day to meet hers (financial security, spacious home, lots of spending $). Those things don't just happen overnight, regardless of willpower. I laid the groundwork for my success over several years of college and low-paying, crappy jobs.

You are saying a woman must be motivated to stretch herself. I say that many (if not most) sexually unsatisfied men are already doing the proverbial "3 daily trips to Chuck E. Cheese for 40 years". We are putting in everything we've got (usually at our wives' direction) into a black hole. And the same is true for the refused women. That's why we are so frustrated. Read about the refused who say "I do everything and she won't budge" and the refusers who say "he's a great guy and takes good care of me - if he stopped asking for sex things would be perfect".

Yes, going out and providing for our families is what guys are wired to do, and what women typically expect. But, there is a huge gap between "providing" and what most guys do, which is strive over the long-term for their wives and children to their own detriment. No man drives far, travels, or works long hours apart from his family for the hell of it. Ditto for coming home, letting his wife pick what to watch on TV, hearing her problems while squelching his, etc. We do it - sacrificing our immediate interests - to build up our loved ones. And, while we don't keep score, we will notice and act if the imbalance gets too large.

So, yeah, I (and the others) know full well that satisfying us sexually takes effort. You will have to figure the mechanics of sex. You might have to tell your friend that you can't meet as often because your husband is feeling neglected he is a priority. You might have to deal with some phobias if you are having fear or anxiety issues. But if your attitude is "that isn't easy for me" - if your attitude is that the potentially hard work is not worth it - how much do you see and appreciate the hard work I do over decades to provide you with what you say you want?

The answer is "not much". You demonstrated this by noting "you aren't (pushing yourself the way you expect of her)". Why is not forsaking all others, striving to provide, doing what she asks, and putting myself last (usually) not good enough - not "committed" enough? Complacency.

Why are publications about "doing a 180", "cooling off", not being a "Nice Guy", etc. popular? Because they recognize this phenomenon, and because they work. They are excellent for recognizing the dynamic, breaking out of it, and driving change (even if they don't get you to where you want to be).

:smthumbup:Can I get an amen?:smthumbup:


----------



## Another Planet

Amen!


----------



## MEM2020

T,
What you are saying is completely correct. Factually, biologically correct. I am sorry your H was not as kind and considerate a partner as you deserve. I mean that. 

No question - that when it comes to a drive imbalance, if you want a happy marriage:
1. Both people have to make a good faith effort to compromise on frequency and
2. The man and the woman have to learn what female responsive desire is and act accordingly 






turnera said:


> By making them have sex when they don't want it?


----------



## MEM2020

DTO,
What you wrote below, was why most nights I expected an hour or so during which my W put MY NEEDS first. I expected her to want to do it, because she loved me for who I am and what I did for her/the kids. 

And if she hadn't loved me enough to want to do that, I would have accepted it very quickly. 





DTO said:


> Actually, I see more common ground here.
> 
> I would actually note that no one here is asking for sex three times a day. If anyone here (man or woman) came with the complaint "my spouse has sex with me daily but it still isn't what I need" he or she would be shut down quick by even the most pro-sex person (and I would head that effort).
> 
> Now then... (and using me as an example, as it's easier to write this way) I freely admit I told my ex to stretch herself and strive to meet my need. Why? Because I busted my ass every day to meet hers (financial security, spacious home, lots of spending $). Those things don't just happen overnight, regardless of willpower. I laid the groundwork for my success over several years of college and low-paying, crappy jobs.
> 
> You are saying a woman must be motivated to stretch herself. I say that many (if not most) sexually unsatisfied men are already doing the proverbial "3 daily trips to Chuck E. Cheese for 40 years". We are putting in everything we've got (usually at our wives' direction) into a black hole. And the same is true for the refused women. That's why we are so frustrated. Read about the refused who say "I do everything and she won't budge" and the refusers who say "he's a great guy and takes good care of me - if he stopped asking for sex things would be perfect".
> 
> Yes, going out and providing for our families is what guys are wired to do, and what women typically expect. But, there is a huge gap between "providing" and what most guys do, which is strive over the long-term for their wives and children to their own detriment. No man drives far, travels, or works long hours apart from his family for the hell of it. Ditto for coming home, letting his wife pick what to watch on TV, hearing her problems while squelching his, etc. We do it - sacrificing our immediate interests - to build up our loved ones. And, while we don't keep score, we will notice and act if the imbalance gets too large.
> 
> So, yeah, I (and the others) know full well that satisfying us sexually takes effort. You will have to figure the mechanics of sex. You might have to tell your friend that you can't meet as often because your husband is feeling neglected he is a priority. You might have to deal with some phobias if you are having fear or anxiety issues. But if your attitude is "that isn't easy for me" - if your attitude is that the potentially hard work is not worth it - how much do you see and appreciate the hard work I do over decades to provide you with what you say you want?
> 
> The answer is "not much". You demonstrated this by noting "you aren't (pushing yourself the way you expect of her)". Why is not forsaking all others, striving to provide, doing what she asks, and putting myself last (usually) not good enough - not "committed" enough? Complacency.
> 
> Why are publications about "doing a 180", "cooling off", not being a "Nice Guy", etc. popular? Because they recognize this phenomenon, and because they work. They are excellent for recognizing the dynamic, breaking out of it, and driving change (even if they don't get you to where you want to be).
> 
> :smthumbup:Can I get an amen?:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

Another Planet said:


> I have noticed that also. I just assumed she is totally projecting, looking for someone to back up her idea of her sexless marriage.


One of the men had said he wanted it 3 times a day.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Sara8 said:


> You think are comparing humans to bonobos and chimps and gibbons.......nuff said. :awink:


If you don't understand where we come from you will never understand human nature.

You can deny the importance of sex all you like - reality won't be changed by your self-delusion.


----------



## johnnycomelately

This is how Maslow saw it.


----------



## Sara8

jaquen said:


> What are you even talking about? You don't have any lesbian friends because you like ejaculate? And somehow you saw my post as a reiteration of your heterosexuality? When was my post even about you, your sexual needs, or your hetrosexuality?
> 
> Lawd.


Wow the fact that the mere thought of having sex with a women disgust me bothers you?

I think it indicates I am heterosexual. 

Would it then be fair or even logical for me to assume you hate heterosexuals?


----------



## Sara8

DTO said:


> I like to use the analogy of a car. A car needs several things to be serviceable: an engine, a gear system to get that power to the wheels, and steering and brakes to control the car, for instance. The absence of any one of these makes any car a bad car; they must all be present. Think of sex the same way - by itself not sufficient, but by its lack a deal-breaker.


Uh! LOL.

Okay I get it, you view a wife as an inanimate object like a car. 

And sex as mechanical. 

I get that. Thank you letting us all know where your head is at.


----------



## Sara8

Holland said:


> Please quote these studies.
> 
> Anecdotally I can tell you without a doubt that sex without penetration or ejaculation are very emotionally and physically satisfying for me personally so I would be keen to see these studies.
> 
> Again you are projecting. You come across as very homophobic which is your choice but don't devalue other peoples ability to enjoy all sorts of sex and intimacy because of your choice of lifestyle.


Actually I have an undergraduate degree in psychology. 

Do you know how to do proper research. Do it please.

When you get yours maybe we can discuss it without me having to do YOUR HOMEWORK.


----------



## Sara8

SadSamIAm said:


> My guess is that Sara8 has had some issues with men. Not certain, just a guess. After this thread, an educated guess.


And my guess is that your education is quite different from mine.


----------



## Sara8

jaquen said:


> Which, when all added together, means a person basically has issues with...themselves.


Now be nice. 

The conventional wisdom for years was that lesbians have issues with their daddies, as well as themselves.

Now based on the real scientific data that statement is kinda ignorant, isn't it?


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> Fair attempt to distract. But it doesn't change the dynamic here. Men have a biological urge to want it more, in most cases. Women have a biological urge to mate, procreate, and nest. Cavemen didn't last more than 5 or 10 years past procreation, so our bodies weren't set up for long-term bonding. To overcome that, since he DOES have the stronger biological urge and she's less likely to, it just ain't gonna happen unless he does something to get it. Unless he's used to raping his wife.
> 
> You can say all you want that a woman 'should' want to please her man all the time and give him sex 3 times a day. But in reality it's not going to happen. And don't even get me started about who's doing 75% of child-rearing and homemaking and is then expected to ALSO put her husband ahead of herself along with the kids, the house, and everything else.
> 
> It's psychologically unrealistic to expect her MIND to drift toward daily "I need to make him happy and feel like sex when I've got 15 other things that have to get done before I get to stop and sit down on the couch and watch tv like he's doing."
> 
> One thing my husband HAS learned in 30 years is that, when he wants it that night, he'd better get his butt off the couch and help me with the cooking, the dishes, the dogs, or whatever else has to get done. Cos if I still have 10 other things to do before I can go to bed, he'll be sitting in bed a long time, waiting for them to all get done. And THEN he'll think I'll want to be intimate?


Well said, alas it will likely fall on deaf ears. 

A man that even thinks about demanding sex rather than wooing it, is likely too far gone.


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> Talk about gender bashing.


Not only was it gender bashing but the statement was a gross stereotyping and a generalization 

Generalizations and stereotyping, are never valid from a scientific or social perspective.


----------



## Sara8

agreenbough said:


> I'm still stuck on the poster who claimed men need sex for EMOTIONAL closeness, and then said, "who watches more porn?" So they're watching porn for emotional closeness......with who, exactly.....
> 
> Men just don't get that low desire in a woman is normal. I should know - I've had three doctors, two of them men, shrug off my low desire concerns with, "Oh, that's normal." Believe me, if I could change it, I would. It has caused me a lot of anguish - worse than my husband having to use his hand occassionally.....
> 
> You're trying to make women feel like there's something wrong with them for not being like men. If my only value to my husband, after having his children and taking care of everything else for 25 years, is as a sex toy, all that says to me is that HE doesn't love me, he just wasnt access to my body. That's not love. It wasn't a bait and switch - that falling in love feeling is transient.
> 
> All I'm hearing here is "you won't give what I want, you're so selfish wah wah wah."


Exactly. 

And that was the original posters point. 

She said she thought that there is more to marriage than sex. 

Apparently her husband doesn't get it and so to quite a few of the husbands posting here.


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> Now, maybe if BOTH of you are truly sharing chores 50% across the board, and she doesn't really end up doing stuff while you're hanging around watching tv or hanging with friends, if you cook every other meal and bake half the cookies, if she has JUST as much free time as you do...maybe she can come at this with just as much playfulness as you do. But I doubt that happens very often.


Exactly.

And, that is likely the original poster's point. 

A women needs to feel as if her husband loves her for more than just the sex he can get. 

Alas, most men don't realize that. That is perhaps why some men feel entitled to cheat if they feel deprived. 

The interesting news is that women cheating has risen dramatically and now equals if not exceeds cheating by men. 

Now, when a women is not satisfied by her man, emotionally, she feels entitled to cheat, to. 

Both are wrong, but that is why the numbers for both men and women cheating has risen 

It sad because it all boils down to lack or realistic expectations, a lack of communication, and selfishness.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Sara8 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And, that is likely the original poster's point.
> 
> A women needs to feel as if her husband loves her for more than just the sex he can get.
> 
> Alas, most men don't realize that. That is perhaps why some men feel entitled to cheat if they feel deprived.


Do you have any statistics or evidence to back up that statement or is it just based on prejudice?


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> The thing is, they DID. And you don't just turn that off. You're a guy, you think you just push ahead til you achieve something. Psychological issues don't work that way.
> 
> And you're still not understanding.
> 
> For the typical woman, whose sex drive wanes as she starts having kids (and biologically/mentally shifts to nesting), she DOESN'T WANT SEX as much as the man.
> 
> YOU still want it because your upbringing AND body push you to.
> 
> But for the typical woman, choosing to still have it 3 times a day is NOT the kind of release or thing to look forward to like it is the man; she doesn't have a biological urge pushing her to find release.
> 
> It is not the same mindset. And you can't MAKE it the same. You just can't. She will NEVER look at getting it 3 times a day the way you do. She just won't.
> 
> And, therefore, DOING it 3 times a day requires a higher level of commitment, choice, and, yes, pushing herself to do something outside her norm. So you are telling her that if she loves you, SHE will therefore maintain an artificial level of commitment that she WOULD NOT CHOOSE if it weren't just to please you. That's akin to her telling you that you had to ... IDK, go to Chuck E Cheese 3 times a day for the next 40 years. Sure, you may be able to find enjoyment in it, if you HAD to. But you sure as hell would not enjoy the quality of your life.
> 
> I'm not saying women don't want to. At all. I'm saying you need to understand that, psychologically, you are asking the woman to go BEYOND her biological/mental comfort zone to 'be' this person you want her to be, when she is also dealing with being the person who never turns off for the kids/house/family, as is typical for women. Generally speaking, of course. So, there SHE is, pushing herself every day to be what you want of her, while you aren't. And, if she doesn't, you label her selfish, lazy, a user, self-centered...


All excellent points. 

Sadly most men or women for that matter are not familiar with science behind your claims. Hence they argue. 

And, again, this all brings us back to the posters original point. 

A marriage should be about more than just sex and sex shouldn't be the most important thing in a marriage or to anyone. 

There is a 2006 movie called idiocracy in which the culture is all dumbed down, and sex is the most important thing to them. sigh.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I see nothing wrong...with a little bump and grind.


I'm sorry! I just had to do it. I keep seeing this thread pop up over and over and that is what plays in my head every time. LOL


----------



## Sara8

turnera said:


> No. It IS biological. AND upbringing.
> 
> As I said, I'm speaking generalizations but I've been reading about this for 40 years and nearly every single source will tell you that men have a higher biological drive.


That's not a generalization. 

It's actually backed by scientific and social studies. 

It's a fact, a sad fact but one indeed. 

It's the reason why so many men leave their faithful wives who helped them become financially successful, for a women 20 years younger who only cares about their money and will most likely cuckold the old man without him even knowing.

Studies also show that women who cheat are far less likely to get caught. 

Why?

They don't need to spend marital assests on the affair partner as a man does, and men are not as skilled at reading facial expressions as are women.

And, that brings us back to the original posters main complaint. 

A healthy marriage should be about more than just sex.


----------



## Sara8

Holland said:


> And the same can be said for men that are LD, I look at the family my LD ex came from. His issues sure do come from upbringing which is a parallel friends of mine in similar situations have come to recognise. Upbringing is paramount to raising sexually and emotionally healthy adults. We can do something about upbringing so surely this is a major consideration and one that parents should embrace and work with.


Low desire in a man or a woman can be either nature or nurture. 

A lot of times LD is associated with some type of undiagnosed physical issue. It can be lesions in the emotional centers of the brain or the centers that release certain hormones, or it can be cardiovascular disease. 

In any case this thread is amusing because it was my husband who had low desire. 

I wanted sex more often, particularly early in the marriage. 

I put up with his low desire because I loved him and thought (which again brings up back to the original poster's point) That MARRIAGE IS ABOUT FAR MORE THE JUST SEX.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Of course a healthy marriage is about more than just sex, just like a healthy body is about more than a healthy heart. The point is if you don't have a healthy sex life the marriage can't be healthy and may well die.

This is not about men versus women it is about caring enough about your marriage to do everything you can to keep it healthy. If you dismiss your partner's sexual needs you are being selfish and putting the marriage at risk.

The OP said 'I see nothing wrong...' That is the crux of the matter.


----------



## jaquen

Sara8 said:


> Wow the fact that the mere thought of having sex with a women disgust me bothers you?
> 
> I think it indicates I am heterosexual.
> 
> Would it then be fair or even logical for me to assume you hate heterosexuals?



:rofl: What? I can't even fathom how you reached that conclusion based off what I said.

You have officially tipped over into the Twilight Zone. You aren't even comprehending what I, or anyone else for that matter, is saying. You just seem to be living in a world designed solely of your own projections, and all shred of objectivity has flown the coop.



Sara8 said:


> Actually I have an undergraduate degree in psychology.


Please get your money back.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> Uh! LOL.
> 
> Okay I get it, you view a wife as an inanimate object like a car.
> 
> And sex as mechanical.
> 
> I get that. Thank you letting us all know where your head is at.


Please, Sara, he isn't talking about his wife as if she is an inanimate object. Fairly certain you know this. You are trying to get a rise out of him. The car analogy works, and works well, if you think about it. A car has a lot of things it needs in order for it to work... just like a marriage does. And that's what he meant in using a car analogy, and you know that. Or maybe not. Maybe I "get it" because I am married to a mechanic...and I grew up with men who loved working on cars.


----------



## krismimo

Wow you guys hit the ground early in the morning....


----------



## krismimo

HOPE I was soo going to put that down he he I was going to pull up the video but thought that might be a bit much happy to see I'm not alone....


----------



## Carisma

This has gone so far off the rails, that if the OP ever does come back she will be scared off again!

One thing that stands out to me is the dichotomy that is represented here. 

I could not tell for sure, but got the feeling that the OP may be a Stay at home mom/wife. Maybe I am forgetting that. 

However, just to use that as an example - 

If a man came in here and said "I don't see anything wrong with keeping my paycheck, paying rent/utilities etc but not giving my wife ANY spending money because after all it is my check and I hug her and give her affection so she shouldn't need it" Everyone would be all over him about how controlling, arrogant etc that he is. 

BUT.....the way I see it, there are many kinds of "currency" in a marriage. If his currency is regular sex, then her withholding it is controlling, unkind, selfish etc. 

OP mentioned that her husband was Loyal, trustworthy, generous etc...all currencies that women appreciate. However, she is unwilling to be generous with the ONE currency he is asking for. 

I don't keep an account in my relationship - but I know that like the 5 love languages says, If I keep the account full for my husband, full with the currency he WANTS, He is much more gentle, kind, patient, happy etc! 

Why wouldn't I want to do that? How could it possibly be in MY best interests to say "I have my rights and my rights say that this is not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you". So, the next time MY car breaks down he can say "well, since I don't need that car and it isn't important to me and there is not enough in the household account to fix it, I guess you just have to be happy not having a car...after all, I don't see anything wrong with saying that you don't need the car because I don't need it. I have a car that works". Except my husband COULDN'T say that because everyone would say he was a horrible, controlling jerk.

Double standard much? So, today I don't feel like "doing it" but he does....last time he took my car for an oil change he probably didn't really feel like doing that either, probably had better things to do with his time....but one thing I always know, is that it ends up being good for both of us....we feel closer, he is happier, and I especially if I wasn't in the mood, I can feel like I gave him a gift that he deserves because he does so much for me.

I don't know if I am just talking in circles or not, but I hear all this man bashing in here because men DARE to want sex. For heaven's sake, it is a natural urge and it doesn't HURT me to give in sometimes when I am not in the mood. The whole argument of he needs to be nicer to her...well, what comes first? The chicken or the egg? She could try giving him what he wants and lo and behold, I bet he gets nicer! It is weird how that works! Someone has to go first and I am willing to bet that after feeling frustrated for a long time, he won't probably be able to put forth that effort/take that risk with a cold wife.


----------



## moxy

Sex is an important part of marriage. If one person's needs are not being met, then that person will either stray or suffer as a result. I suggest you two go to marriage counseling and really talk about this. Maybe you can come to some kind of compromise. Perhaps he might find some other way to feel connected to you. Perhaps you might be able to connect with him more on his level, too. I imagine that other issues than just sex exist and you should sort them out before things get too out of hand. It's just as wrong for you to minimize his needs as it would be for him to disregard yours.


----------



## Sara8

johnnycomelately said:


> Of course a healthy marriage is about more than just sex, just like a healthy body is about more than a healthy heart. The point is if you don't have a healthy sex life the marriage can't be healthy and may well die.
> 
> This is not about men versus women it is about caring enough about your marriage to do everything you can to keep it healthy. If you dismiss your partner's sexual needs you are being selfish and putting the marriage at risk.
> 
> The OP said 'I see nothing wrong...' That is the crux of the matter.


I agree that the fact that she sees nothing wrong is dangerous. I wouldn't say it is the crux of her point. 

I already asked her to ensure her spouse wasn't cheating. 

As I mentioned, though, My spouse as low desire, but I didn't cheat.

Like the original poster, I felt marriage was about more than sex, and I wasn't going to give up on it due to my spouse's low desire.

And that is the point the original poster is trying to make.


----------



## Sara8

Maricha75 said:


> Please, Sara, he isn't talking about his wife as if she is an inanimate object. Fairly certain you know this. You are trying to get a rise out of him.
> 
> The car analogy works, and works well, if you think about it. A car has a lot of things it needs in order for it to work... just like a marriage does. And that's what he meant in using a car analogy, and you know that. Or maybe not. Maybe I "get it" because I am married to a mechanic...and I grew up with men who loved working on cars.



You know Maricha, I am glad you are pleased with the car analogy. 

I don't find that analogy appropriate at all

It scares me some that you do find it appropriate, too.

I think the Original poster is saying in so many words that her spouses constant whining about sex is making her feel like a sex OBJECT. 

A CAR is an object, right?

Perhaps you might google Sex Object and it's meaning and how women relate to that term.


----------



## jaquen

Instead of continuing to suffer through Sara8's projection driven butchering of the OP, how about we let her speak for herself?

*Hello, I am new here (just now signed up) and I have a problem. Well, at least my husband thinks that I do. I am 35 years old, I have no kids and my husband and I have been married for 4 years at the end of this month. I have been with my husband since 2002 though.
Here's the "problem." My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all. When we first got together, we would have sex at least once a day, and as the relationship went on, it became less and less. He seems to think I don't love him and I'm not attracted to him. This is not true. I just think sex is overrated and the more important aspects of marriage are trust, repect and loyality.
This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "now can we have sex??" every day?
Okay so either my husband is a huge hornball who just refuses to grow up or I'm a huge prude....

Anyone?
*

The woman never said that her husband thought of her as a sex object, or saw sex as the ONLY component of marriage.

The woman flat out said that:

- Sex is not important to her at all
- She use to have sex "at least once a day", but that sex has become diminished over time
- Her husband is feeling insecure about her love for him, because she stopped having sex with him as often
- She think sex is "overrated"
- Pontificates if her husband is a hornball, or if she's a prude

That's the info provided by the OP. Most of the crap happening in this current debate has NOTHING to do with the information actually provided.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

And we wonder how people get run off from the website.


----------



## Chris Taylor

WorkingOnMe said:


> And we wonder how people get run off from the website.


True, but if you post in a public forum, you have to be able to face the enemy fire that results.

But if OP stayed and debated her position, I don't think this thread would have derailed like it did.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Sara8 said:


> A marriage should be about more than just sex and sex shouldn't be the most important thing in a marriage or to anyone.


Sara8,

Thanks for getting back to us.The op said;

"My husband thinks sex is the most important part of marriage, and I highly disagree. In fact, sex is not important to me at all."

With all due respect, who is mind reading here? Only the op's husband can accurately say what he really thinks and we haven't heard from him. Maybe he was misunderstood when he communicated his priorities. However the op speaks pretty clearly regarding her thinking which is "sex is not important to me at all". 

And why shouldn't sex be the most important thing anyway? Who are we to tell someone what is important to them?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Carisma said:


> Why wouldn't I want to do that? How could it possibly be in MY best interests to say "I have my rights and my rights say that this is not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you".


For one reason, because our culture tells women this is how they should assert themselves in order to achieve their goal of equality (at some low functional level) to men


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> By making them have sex when they don't want it?


By helping them understand the value of marital relationship. By helping them understand the role of physical intimacy in the marital relationship. By allowing them be able to like sex and accept their human sexuality and still feel OK about themselves as women.

And don't forget that men have a huge responsibility in raising their daughters as well as their sons. Turning the fathering role over to women thinking that somehow it is only their business or that they are better at it or just being uncomfortable and not doing it may be one of the root causes of our problem


----------



## homebuilder

opinions are like ***holes everybody has one buy for one person to say what should be most important to other people is crazy. the fact is sex is very important to some and not at all for others but whatever it is that one spouse is not getting enough be it sex conversation holding emotional support or whatever its a big deal to them and its the other spouses duty to ante up or get to stepping
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

HB, 
As much as you might wish it was, that isn't how this works and I think you know that. If YOU believe it is that important as the deprived HD partner:
1. Somehow we have gotten way off track sexually. Relax, this isn't going to be a long or tense conversation on the subject. 
2. We love each other and let's just agree that unless something changes:
- I have zero desire to press you to do something you don't want
- I know you realize that it is equally unacceptable for you to try and force celibacy upon me

Since you have made it clear that sex isn't important to you, I expect that means you will remain monogamous. As for me I promise to be discreet and try to not break the budget with my activities in this area.


----------



## Maricha75

Sara8 said:


> You know Maricha, I am glad you are pleased with the car analogy.
> 
> I don't find that analogy appropriate at all
> 
> It scares me some that you do find it appropriate, too.
> 
> I think the Original poster is saying in so many words that her spouses constant whining about sex is making her feel like a sex OBJECT.
> 
> A CAR is an object, right?
> 
> Perhaps you might google Sex Object and it's meaning and how women relate to that term.


Funny thing about cars... I can relate to the analogy that A MARRIAGE is like a CAR in that it TAKES MULTIPLE THINGS TO MAKE IT RUN RIGHT. How difficult is THAT to comprehend? Seriously! He isn't saying SHE IS A CAR. He is saying that a MARRIAGE, LIKE a machine, requires MANY different components to "run right". ONE of those components is SEX. Not calling a woman a sex OBJECT. I really think you are deliberately "misunderstanding" this analogy for God knows what reason. 

Now, my mechanic husband doesn't treat me like a sex object, doesn't view me as a sex object AT ALL. So poking holes in the analogy isn't going to work for me. 

I still wonder how often the original poster's husband actually DOES ask for sex. She did say that was getting too personal, so we will never know. It is all speculation. But if he's only asking once a week and she only wants it once every 4-6 weeks... I'd say that HARDLY qualifies as constantly after her for sex. 

But what do I know? I, apparently, am an OBJECT because I understand a car analogy.


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## southbound

Dr. Phil said something once that made a lot of sense to me. He said that if a marriage is good and both are satisfied with their sex life, sex is only about 10% of what is right with that marriage. But, if the sexual relationship is not good, it can be about 90% of what is wrong with the marriage because somebody is hurt and frustrated.

the importance of sex in a marriage is difficult to describe. Some will say it's not very important, and some will say it is. For me, it's like this: Food has no direct connection to my job whatsoever, and if someone asked me why i was successful in my job, eating would not be on the list, but if i didn't get to go to the cafeteria every day and fulfill my hunger desire, I'm sure my hunger and the thoughts of food would start to replace my thoughts of my job. I would have a need for something that wasn't being fulfilled, and it would have a negative impact on me. 

I can remember a few times in my marriage when i felt sexually fulfilled. At that point, sex wasn't an issue. i wasn't going around nagging my wife about it and doing things to try to spark her interest, so, we went about our marriage with happiness. But when i was denied sex regularly, i felt unloved and had a burning desire all the time that messed with my emotions.

So, I don't know if sex is the most important thing or not, but it certainly became most important to me when i was deprived.


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## johnnycomelately

Sara8 said:


> Not only was it gender bashing but the statement was a gross stereotyping and a generalization
> 
> Generalizations and stereotyping, are never valid from a scientific or social perspective.


You mean like this:



Sara8 said:


> Alas, *most men *don't realize that. That is perhaps why some *men* feel entitled to *cheat* if they feel deprived.


Pot calling the kettle black.


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## DTO

Hi Maricha,

You are absolutely correct with the intent behind my car analogy.

I don't think the problem is that the scoffers don't get the analogy. Rather, they don't approve of the value system that analogy represents.

I for one don't feel it's reasonable to want a spouse only for sex with nothing else mattering. I do feel it's reasonable for sex to be, along with a few other items, at the top of my list. Call it a "must have", if you will.

If I were to consider marriage today, my "must haves" would be kindness to my daughter, high drive (for sexual frequency and variety), honesty, and good financial stewardship. Any one of these missing would be a "deal breaker" - even the sex part.

There are people who are offended that sex is a dealbreaker. Some of them would say that it's okay for sex to be important, but sex should never be a deal breaker in marriage. Others would go even further and say sex (other than for procreation maybe) should not be important at all. There are folks out there who are uncomfortable as a sexual being and (like my ex) and resent that sex appeal is part of the attraction process at all.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.



Maricha75 said:


> Funny thing about cars... I can relate to the analogy that A MARRIAGE is like a CAR in that it TAKES MULTIPLE THINGS TO MAKE IT RUN RIGHT. How difficult is THAT to comprehend? Seriously! He isn't saying SHE IS A CAR. He is saying that a MARRIAGE, LIKE a machine, requires MANY different components to "run right". ONE of those components is SEX. Not calling a woman a sex OBJECT. I really think you are deliberately "misunderstanding" this analogy for God knows what reason.
> 
> Now, my mechanic husband doesn't treat me like a sex object, doesn't view me as a sex object AT ALL. So poking holes in the analogy isn't going to work for me.
> 
> I still wonder how often the original poster's husband actually DOES ask for sex. She did say that was getting too personal, so we will never know. It is all speculation. But if he's only asking once a week and she only wants it once every 4-6 weeks... I'd say that HARDLY qualifies as constantly after her for sex.
> 
> But what do I know? I, apparently, am an OBJECT because I understand a car analogy.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## homebuilder

I am HD I was when my mife and I dated I was when we married I still am today my wife knew this and I think it is unfair that once your married to think you don't have to respect who I am. The problem is married people get the attitude that your married and your just going to accept it and not do anything about it. That is a bad attitude to have and one that it selfish and disrepectful to someone that you say you love.


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## LookingForTheSun

southbound said:


> Dr. Phil said something once that made a lot of sense to me. He said that if a marriage is good and both are satisfied with their sex life, sex is only about 10% of what is right with that marriage. But, if the sexual relationship is not good, it can be about 90% of what is wrong with the marriage because somebody is hurt and frustrated.
> 
> the importance of sex in a marriage is difficult to describe. Some will say it's not very important, and some will say it is. For me, it's like this: Food has no direct connection to my job whatsoever, and if someone asked me why i was successful in my job, eating would not be on the list, but if i didn't get to go to the cafeteria every day and fulfill my hunger desire, I'm sure my hunger and the thoughts of food would start to replace my thoughts of my job. I would have a need for something that wasn't being fulfilled, and it would have a negative impact on me.
> 
> I can remember a few times in my marriage when i felt sexually fulfilled. At that point, sex wasn't an issue. i wasn't going around nagging my wife about it and doing things to try to spark her interest, so, we went about our marriage with happiness. But when i was denied sex regularly, i felt unloved and had a burning desire all the time that messed with my emotions.
> 
> So, I don't know if sex is the most important thing or not, but it certainly became most important to me when i was deprived.


:iagree:

Well said. Now some might argue though that you are comparing sex and your wife to a pizza or chicken wing....


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## Maricha75

homebuilder said:


> I am HD I was when my mife and I dated I was when we married I still am today my wife knew this and I think it is unfair that once your married to think you don't have to respect who I am. *The problem is married people get the attitude that your married and your just going to accept it and not do anything about it.* That is a bad attitude to have and one that it selfish and disrepectful to someone that you say you love.


I think this needs a slight clarification.... *SOME* married people have this attitude.


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## Ten_year_hubby

DTO said:


> I for one don't feel it's reasonable to want a spouse only for sex with nothing else mattering.


I don't think it's really feasible anyway, I mean no one can be that compartmentalized, it's just not possible. Accusations like this are extreme rhetoric intended as a dis


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## Holland

Sara8 said:


> Actually I have an undergraduate degree in psychology.
> 
> Do you know how to do proper research. Do it please.
> 
> When you get yours maybe we can discuss it without me having to do YOUR HOMEWORK.


Rude much? This usually stems from feeling on the back foot and out of control. 

Regardless of any degrees you may have, I prefer to live in reality not text books. 

Quite simply you are very defensive and projecting in the thread.


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## Holland

Sara8 said:


> That's not a generalization.
> 
> It's actually backed by scientific and social studies.
> 
> It's a fact, a sad fact but one indeed.
> 
> It's the reason why so many men leave their faithful wives who helped them become financially successful, for a women 20 years younger who only cares about their money and will most likely cuckold the old man without him even knowing.
> 
> Studies also show that women who cheat are far less likely to get caught.
> 
> Why?
> 
> They don't need to spend marital assests on the affair partner as a man does, and men are not as skilled at reading facial expressions as are women.
> 
> And, that brings us back to the original posters main complaint.
> 
> *A healthy marriage should be about more than just sex.*


No one is disputing that. If you could stop and listen you will see that posters are saying a healthy marriage has a good sex life as one of it's pillars, not the whole foundation. It really could not be simpler than that.

A bad sex life in most marriages will cause it to collapse no matter what the other foundations for it are.


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## WorkingOnMe

Another inanimate object! Pillars!


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## southbound

So, is there a bottom line to the sex issue? I've been here for two years and miss-matched sex drives have been an issue the entire time. Apparently we haven't solved anything, because we still have plenty to talk about. 

I know that there is no "normal" number of times per day, week, or month that applies to everybody. We have guidelines and traditions of 3 meals a day, 8 hours of sleep, take 2 every four hours, and apply once daily. We may only eat once a day and take 3 every four hours, but we know if we stray too far from the suggestions, things may not be good. We have no standards for normal frequency of sex, therefore, we all get to be normal and have an argument for that normalcy. 

Is there a point, though, considering all else is good, where someone should look at themselves and ask, does my frequency of desire seem rational, and does my spouses? If I want it 3 times a day and my spouse doesn't, am I being rational to expect it of them? If I want it once every two months, is it rational to expect that would satisfy the average person? What about once a week? Then, if we are honest and decide our level of desire is a bit off, what do we do? Could the HD spouse act in a way that could increase desire in the LD spouse, or is it just what it is regardless of what happened? Could the HD have a talk with himself and say "Look pal, three times a day is over the top, you can surely find a way to be happy with less." I don't know.


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## FalconKing

WorkingOnMe said:


> And we wonder how people get run off from the website.


I said the same thing yesterday in another thread:slap:


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## Machiavelli

noturtypicalwoman said:


> I think that's getting a bit personal for open forum.


Translation: If I tell you I only allow sex twice a year, you may not be sympathetic to my situation.


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## hehasmyheart

Don't make him have to nag. Meet in the middle and give it to him twice as often as you'd like just because you love him and want him to be happy (that is, if you do).

Btw, anyone is prone to cheating, in my opinion.

Just think, you could be on here writing about the regret you have for not fulfilling his needs after he's been with the other woman.

If he's saying things like "Are you ever going to f me?", sounds like resentment is setting in. How infrequent is it happening???

I mean no disrespect, everyone is different, but yes, it sounds a bit prudish.


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## DTO

Sara8 said:


> A man that even thinks about demanding sex rather than wooing it, is likely too far gone.


That is a pretty strong statement.

You don't seem to realize that men generally do not demand sex. We will at some point hold women accountable for not meeting our needs, but making an issue of something is not the same as demanding it. You make it sound as if men behave like children, screaming for it and such.

Second, the reality is that a guy is not going to complain just because you missed a day or two of sex. We get that women need to be in the mood and are generally reasonably patient about it. If it gets to the point where a woman is feeling some push-back from the lack of sex, it has been a problem for a long time already. The guy probably feels like "I've wooed her and she makes all the right sounds about liking the treatment, but still nothing, so it's time for Plan B".

Third, this attitude really creates a no-win situation for the guy - one that he will not put up with once he figures out what is going on (I know I didn't). To wit:

* If I want better sex I need to woo her.
* If I still don't get what I need, I need to try harder while keeping in mind that sex should not be that important.
* If I shake up the relationship (cool it down, 180, or even discussing ending it) I am a jerk for overemphasizing sex.

There is no scenario, under this paradigm, where I can legitimately claim that I deserve / have earned the sex I desire. And that's just flat out B.S.


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## Dubya

A couple have folks have derailed this thread so bad it's jumped the tracks, stole a police car, picked up a hooker, a kilo of coke and headed straight for the Mexican border


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## Emerald

Dubya said:


> A couple have folks have derailed this thread so bad it's jumped the tracks, stole a police car, picked up a hooker, a kilo of coke and headed straight for the Mexican border


LOL

The OP & I chatted in PM's. The day she bravely came to this site to post her issue & ask for advice, she felt attacked, so she left. Now some will say, tough sh*t, open forum, blah, blah, blah.

Most regular posters here of are superior intelligence & that is what makes it such a great forum.

I do see a bit of a double standard here when women post about not liking sex, not seeing sex as a big issue in a marriage, they are sometimes made to feel like worthless human beings but mostly are given good advice. It's the bashing that runs them off & the good advice goes unnoticed.

The rare time a man posts about sexual problems, he is told to get his T levels checked & other helpful bits of advice. I never see him bashed or run off the forum. There is a level of empathy for a man with sexual issues not always given to women.


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## FalconKing

^Yeah I noticed that a lot. One gender gets more understanding than the other depending on the problem.


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## johnnycomelately

Emerald said:


> LOL
> 
> The OP & I chatted in PM's. The day she bravely came to this site to post her issue & ask for advice, she felt attacked, so she left. Now some will say, tough sh*t, open forum, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Most regular posters here of are superior intelligence & that is what makes it such a great forum.
> 
> I do see a bit of a double standard here when women post about not liking sex, not seeing sex as a big issue in a marriage, they are sometimes made to feel like worthless human beings but mostly are given good advice. It's the bashing that runs them off & the good advice goes unnoticed.
> 
> The rare time a man posts about sexual problems, he is told to get his T levels checked & other helpful bits of advice. I never see him bashed or run off the forum. There is a level of empathy for a man with sexual issues not always given to women.


That is not true. A man posted recently about his wife complaining about his PE and he showed the same selfish attitude and he got criticised for it.

The issue was her dismissive attitude as in 'I see nothing wrong.'


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## MEM2020

Carisma,
I honestly believe my W and I BOTH think the way that you do. 

If I said to my W:
- Respect
- Communication and
- Trust 
Are what really matters in a marriage.

The "....XYZ...." things that YOU think matter, really should not be important to you. They really aren't that important to a marriage. 

If I said that she would reply with:
- What is RESPECTFUL about you telling me what SHOULD be important to ME?
- What type of COMMUNICATION is it when you ignore and deny my stated priorities?
- When I married you, I TRUSTED you to treat me as well AFTER the ceremony as before. We both know you never acted like this before we married










Carisma said:


> This has gone so far off the rails, that if the OP ever does come back she will be scared off again!
> 
> One thing that stands out to me is the dichotomy that is represented here.
> 
> I could not tell for sure, but got the feeling that the OP may be a Stay at home mom/wife. Maybe I am forgetting that.
> 
> However, just to use that as an example -
> 
> If a man came in here and said "I don't see anything wrong with keeping my paycheck, paying rent/utilities etc but not giving my wife ANY spending money because after all it is my check and I hug her and give her affection so she shouldn't need it" Everyone would be all over him about how controlling, arrogant etc that he is.
> 
> BUT.....the way I see it, there are many kinds of "currency" in a marriage. If his currency is regular sex, then her withholding it is controlling, unkind, selfish etc.
> 
> OP mentioned that her husband was Loyal, trustworthy, generous etc...all currencies that women appreciate. However, she is unwilling to be generous with the ONE currency he is asking for.
> 
> I don't keep an account in my relationship - but I know that like the 5 love languages says, If I keep the account full for my husband, full with the currency he WANTS, He is much more gentle, kind, patient, happy etc!
> 
> Why wouldn't I want to do that? How could it possibly be in MY best interests to say "I have my rights and my rights say that this is not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you". So, the next time MY car breaks down he can say "well, since I don't need that car and it isn't important to me and there is not enough in the household account to fix it, I guess you just have to be happy not having a car...after all, I don't see anything wrong with saying that you don't need the car because I don't need it. I have a car that works". Except my husband COULDN'T say that because everyone would say he was a horrible, controlling jerk.
> 
> Double standard much? So, today I don't feel like "doing it" but he does....last time he took my car for an oil change he probably didn't really feel like doing that either, probably had better things to do with his time....but one thing I always know, is that it ends up being good for both of us....we feel closer, he is happier, and I especially if I wasn't in the mood, I can feel like I gave him a gift that he deserves because he does so much for me.
> 
> I don't know if I am just talking in circles or not, but I hear all this man bashing in here because men DARE to want sex. For heaven's sake, it is a natural urge and it doesn't HURT me to give in sometimes when I am not in the mood. The whole argument of he needs to be nicer to her...well, what comes first? The chicken or the egg? She could try giving him what he wants and lo and behold, I bet he gets nicer! It is weird how that works! Someone has to go first and I am willing to bet that after feeling frustrated for a long time, he won't probably be able to put forth that effort/take that risk with a cold wife.


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## IndiaInk

Holland said:


> Rude much? This usually stems from feeling on the back foot and out of control.
> 
> Regardless of any degrees you may have, I prefer to live in reality not text books.
> 
> Quite simply you are very defensive and projecting in the thread.


Yes.

Quite Rude.

And I don't even have a _dog in this fight_...but I'm a little embarrassed for her...

I don't think an _undergraduate_ psychology degree is something one goes throwing around as if it carries any weight...

But hey, that's just me...


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## MEM2020

Emerald 
I agree with you completely. I read her post and thought - ok she wants to fix this, good for her. And honestly his behavior was not good so I felt some sympathy for her. 

She never even mentioned a frequency and people stated bashing her straight off.


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## Broken at 20

So I know I am a little late getting in on all this, but I remember what psychology taught me...

People feel love in a lot of different ways. 
I actually had to take a test, that established (or think it did) what my love language was. Or something like that. 
And the test told me, I would feel loved getting sex and affection from my SO. (Being a male, no big surprise there)

And I compared with some people in my class. 
And a lot of people had a different 'love language.' 
Other had it more from a 'sex and caring,' standpoint, others were just 'support and affection,' it just varied. 

So let's say your love langauge is affection and emotional intimacy. Well, sounds like yous husband's is sex. 
So, if you cut him off from his love langauge, how willing will he be to talk your love langauge. 

"Love isn't a one-way street. 
Those that treat it like one tend to find themselves driving alone." 
-Psychology Professor (never could remember his name)


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## Ten_year_hubby

Emerald said:


> The OP & I chatted in PM's. The day she bravely came to this site to post her issue & ask for advice, she felt attacked, so she left.


This looks to me like a big misunderstanding. The only question I can see that the op asked was:

*This has caused many arguements, but seriously, wouldn't you get sick of your husband getting mad and saying "are you ever gonna f**k me?" or "now can we have sex??" every day?*

Other than that, I though she was asking the forum what they though rather than asking for advice


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## johnnycomelately

^^I agree. This was probably a 'let's see what other people think thread.' The OP is convinced she is in the right and just wanted that to be confirmed. 

I don't see how anyone can be criticised for making their opinions about her attitude felt as long as they didn't get personal.

This thread veered off track because it was turned into a men v women mud-slinging match. There really was no need for that because the issue is the same whether you own a penis or a vagina.


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## MEM2020

Seek first to understand and then to be understood. 

No chance of understanding a situation from a single post. 

The men most angry at her post are generally the same type of men who post 'my sex life is bad.......' and when they get asked: have you asked your wife a, b, and c their reponse is to ignore the post. 

In fact a good half the men posting about how bad their sex life is make the 'factual statements that: They get their wives off every time and since an orgasm = great sex, their wife likes having sex with them. Of course even though she likes it, they almost never have sex.....


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## johnnycomelately

MEM11363 said:


> Seek first to understand and then to be understood.
> 
> No chance of understanding a situation from a single post.
> 
> The men most angry at her post are generally the same type of men who post 'my sex life is bad.......' and when they get asked: have you asked your wife a, b, and c their reponse is to ignore the post.


Actually most of the anger wasn't directed at the OP but people who made ignorant generalisations about what 'most' men think. 

Sexist comments are bound to make people angry.


----------

