# Counseling/Therapy Absolute Scams



## 23cm

Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners. 

What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science. 

In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.

Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias. 

Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets. 

So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.


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## Evinrude58

Soppisedly the counselor just give you the opportunity to talk and walk you through figuring things out for yourself. I think I'll save my money and just figure it out for myself, lol.
My best friend's mom, my bro in law, and my dad all do this **** for free. If only they knew how much money I should be paying then to listen to my crap, they'd be really po'd lol.


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## Jessica38

There are different types of therapy- some offer feedback and give expert opinions based on their clinical experience.

I agree that most MCs are not very helpful at improving marriages. I read a stat that MC is successful only 17% of the time. 

But marital coaching that gives couples a concrete plan to improve their marriage can be very helpful- some programs like Marriage Builders have saved many marriages. 

For couples with poor communication and/or problem solving techniques, I think searching for a plan that has worked for others in the same situation is probably the best bet. And many marriage problems come down to the same issues. Most couples' problems are not really unique.


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## EleGirl

The marriage counseling that you and your ex did. It sounds like it failed because "the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her." A counselor/therapist cannot force anyone to do anything. The patients have to be willing to be admit and address their own flaws. Seeing 7 counselors in 2 years not going to work because it takes time to build the relationship, to trust the counselor, etc. You really cannot blame the counselors if your wife was not ready to deal with her own stuff.

The experience you had with the psychiatrist is a typical Freudian type therapy. It's proven to not be very effective because of what you describe. It usually allows a person to talk about the same nonsense session after session with the therapist asking "and now of you feel about it". Most people need more guidance than that to figure out how they feel about it. But more importantly, most people need to know what to do about it. Research has found that this type of therapy actually is very non-productive except in a very few cases because it basically keeps people wallowing in their misery. Every time a person discusses the things that make them unhappy or how their parents screwed them up, they relive it. They once again experience the emotional harm, it actually perpetuates the people. It seldom helps them fix anything. It's ok to ID things that hurt you in the past. But once ID'd move on to a solution. 

Cognitive behavioral therapy is much more effective. You set a goal and figure out how to get to that goal. The you start doing it. It's not something that takes years to do. A few weeks to a few months is pretty normal. Michele Weiner-Davis has a good discussion of this in her book "Divorce Busting".

I've had a lot of luck with counselors, probably because I've assessed quickly if they were worth it or not and not returned to the ones that were not going to be helpful.

Now I really like certain self help books. Most of them are more along the line to cognitive behavioral therapy. Id the problem and here's what you do to change.


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## john117

Counseling fails because the counseled often feel they were dragged into it... Or, there are underlying mental health issues that your vanilla flavor counselor can't address.


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## Works

How funny that after a year of me having logged onto this site, this was the first thing that caught my attention (your post). My husband and I recently considered counseling... You are ABSOLUTELY right, it is a crock. You sit there and talk about how this/that/and the other makes you feel. Needless to say, long story short, we got through our issues on our own. Not saying it will be the same for everyone... Our sessions would have been $200 for an hour... You have to want to work on your marriage for it to work, counseling, or on your own.


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## 23cm

EleGirl said:


> The marriage counseling that you and your ex did. It sounds like it failed because "the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her." A counselor/therapist cannot force anyone to do anything. The patients have to be willing to be admit and address their own flaws. Seeing 7 counselors in 2 years not going to work because it takes time to build the relationship, to trust the counselor, etc. You really cannot blame the counselors if your wife was not ready to deal with her own stuff.
> 
> The experience you had with the psychiatrist is a typical Freudian type therapy. It's proven to not be very effective because of what you describe. It usually allows a person to talk about the same nonsense session after session with the therapist asking "and now of you feel about it". Most people need more guidance than that to figure out how they feel about it. But more importantly, most people need to know what to do about it. Research has found that this type of therapy actually is very non-productive except in a very few cases because it basically keeps people wallowing in their misery. Every time a person discusses the things that make them unhappy or how their parents screwed them up, they relive it. They once again experience the emotional harm, it actually perpetuates the people. It seldom helps them fix anything. It's ok to ID things that hurt you in the past. But once ID'd move on to a solution.
> 
> Cognitive behavioral therapy is much more effective. You set a goal and figure out how to get to that goal. The you start doing it. It's not something that takes years to do. A few weeks to a few months is pretty normal. Michele Weiner-Davis has a good discussion of this in her book "Divorce Busting".
> 
> I've had a lot of luck with counselors, probably because I've assessed quickly if they were worth it or not and not returned to the ones that were not going to be helpful.
> 
> Now I really like certain self help books. Most of them are more along the line to cognitive behavioral therapy. Id the problem and here's what you do to change.


Thanks EleGirl....I went to this guy with some psych knowledge--an MBA in Organizational Behavior and had all kinds of graduate level psych classes--and believed he was more of the Cognitive Behavior variety. That's why I prepared ahead of time and took written information about the basics of the problem--my wife drinks too much and sometimes so much that she disassociates and hallucinates...what should I do? Aside from a 12-step program for her -- she'd never go what tools what paths are open. If what I wanted wasn't what he was willing and prepared to do, why continue? 

Frankly, reading bulletin boards like Sober Recovery have helped much more than the high-priced shrink.


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## EleGirl

23cm said:


> Thanks EleGirl....I went to this guy with some psych knowledge--an MBA in Organizational Behavior and had all kinds of graduate level psych classes--and believed he was more of the Cognitive Behavior variety. That's why I prepared ahead of time and took written information about the basics of the problem--my wife drinks too much and sometimes so much that she disassociates and hallucinates...what should I do? Aside from a 12-step program for her -- she'd never go what tools what paths are open. If what I wanted wasn't what he was willing and prepared to do, why continue?
> 
> Frankly, reading bulletin boards like Sober Recovery have helped much more than the high-priced shrink.


Yea, it a crap shoot since one never knows is a counselor/therapist will be any good. Getting a bad one can be worse than not going at all. 

But a good counselor/therapist can be a great asset.


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## Satya

I personally had a great experience with my therapist, during my divorce. 

Sounds like you had a poor therapist and didn't crack down on your wife for obviously not being serious about wanting to address the issue(s). Cycling through 7 therapists is not their fault, and not what I'd think of as the norm.


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## arbitrator

23cm said:


> Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners.
> 
> What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science.
> 
> In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.
> 
> Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias.
> 
> Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets.
> 
> So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.


*So sorry to hear that, my friend! Oh, how I sense your pain! Just as there are some absolutely great counselors out there, there are some real clowns out there as well! 

Did you not get references from either people who had used this counselor before, or at the very least, from online rating services, say like an "Angie's List?" *


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## john117

The whole idea of therapy is talk. We started off with a renowned psychologist and graduate of the same university I went to. Thankfully it was $10 copays and after eight months​ it went nowhere. It was one of those "he should have gone to accounting school" moments. 

We switched to a different one - graduate of our school's rival - and she made spectacular headway. 

There's too many people in the profession that should not be there, period.


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## Mr The Other

23cm said:


> Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners.
> 
> What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science.
> 
> In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.
> 
> Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias.
> 
> Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets.
> 
> So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.


An ignoramus writes.....

Individual counseling often fails as the individual is unwilling to do anything. In the case of MC, not only do you need both to act, but most change will have to come from the person who is probably laziest and least committed.

I am perfectly happy with the MC I got before my divorce. It gave her homework, which she never did and that helped me see through her perpetual victim status. My ex-wife was not willing to make any effort, which was the problem in the marriage. It was a problem for the MC too, but not the MC's fault. Yet, it becomes another example of MC not working.

Of course, that was the Scandinavian model. The UK model accepts the aforementioned problem. It trys to make the man fit the woman. If the man is lazy and ignorant, it tries to change him. If the woman is lazy and ignorant, it insists the man accept her version of reality rather than objective reality for the sake of the marriage change his life around that. It probably is more effective for saving marriages, but pretty terrible in its own way. That is the model you encountered. Assuming the man is the more emotionally aware and responsible, it can succeed. But, normally, it will not work.

The truth is, if both people are prepared to work at making a marriage work, then it will not end up in MC in the first place.


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## aine

23cm said:


> Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners.
> 
> What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science.
> 
> In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.
> 
> Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias.
> 
> Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets.
> 
> So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.



Since when does anyone have to pay of $1000 for Al Anon meetings, I call BS on this. When you go to Al anon meetings you may pay for materials voluntarily but a $1000!!

Therapists/counselors, do not fix your problems, they help you to expose what it is you need to do for yourself.


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## 23cm

aine said:


> Since when does anyone have to pay of $1000 for Al Anon meetings, I call BS on this. When you go to Al anon meetings you may pay for materials voluntarily but a $1000!!
> 
> Therapists/counselors, do not fix your problems, they help you to expose what it is you need to do for yourself.


You misread, or perhaps I was unclear. I didn't have to pay for the Al Anon meetings. For one thing, I never went. I paid a total of nearly $1,000 to the shrink whose considered advice after four meetings it was that I go to an Al Anon meeting. 

He didn't help me expose anything I didn't already know.


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## WilliamM

My wife had about 8 years of counseling for personal issues. I do feel it was very useful.


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## MarriedAHooker

just because you're too poor to pay for it doesn't make it a scam, OP


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## LuckyM

I don't know about marriage counseling.

However, my experience is that they are usually shallow ,
not competent at really analyzing a situation beyond the surface,
often reluctant to explain themselves. Overpaid despite their degree.
They may not read much, so they don't know about the newest
insights and studies. Some have the compassion or sympathy of
a chair. Hey, it's trial and error.

How do ya find the good ones?


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## personofinterest

There are two cases in which therapy is absolutely useless:

1. When the therapist is bad
2. When the person in therapy lies to the therapist or refuses to do the work


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## Bananapeel

I had a great experience in counseling when I was going through my D. The counselor helped me get to where I needed to be in about six sessions then told me I didn't need to come back because I had developed what I needed to move forward. I think you can either find someone that is a good match for your issues/personality or you can find a poor match. For me it was a very worthwhile investment.


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## NobodySpecial

23cm said:


> Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners.
> 
> What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science.
> 
> In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because *whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her*. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.


Counseling is not a magic bullet or fix it pill. The people in counseling *have to do the work*. Your wife did not want to do that. We had friends whose therapist fired them because ALL they wanted to do was ***** and blame at each other.



> Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias.


Yah it is frustrating. But telling you about you is not their job. People don't figure something out when someone says gee, you are having problem x, and you need to do why. 



> Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets.


Had you stuck around, he might have had other advice you might have been able to use.



> So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.


Too expensive, no doubt But expecting anything in a couple of sessions is just not going to work.


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## SpinyNorman

There are a bunch of problems w/ therapy, first being what is likely to work for you may not work for me. Even if the same thing works, how it is presented can make a lot of difference in how we adopt it, or fail to. Partly b/c of that, it is hard to weed out ineffective therapists. In contrast, in the medical profession you don't set a bone differently based on the patient's personality so weeding out bad medical doctors is a little more straightforward.

As others have pointed out, the biggest problem is not "taking the prescribed medicine", which isn't a problem w/ the therapist but the patient.

As for the cost, insurance often doesn't cover it, and that partly reflects consumer choice in that many choose not to pay for this coverage when they do have the choice.

Often what they're going to tell you is common sense so you should try some home remedies. 

Sometimes it really does help, and if you think it is expensive, try paying for a divorce.


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## Townes

It's similar to any other type of coaching. You have to find a coach that is a good fit for you, whose methodology is effective for you, and then you have to do the work. No one coach is going to work for everyone, but to say coaching is a scam is silly.


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## SpinyNorman

Jessica38 said:


> There are different types of therapy- some offer feedback and give expert opinions based on their clinical experience.
> 
> I agree that most MCs are not very helpful at improving marriages. *I read a stat that MC is successful only 17% of the time.
> *
> But marital coaching that gives couples a concrete plan to improve their marriage can be very helpful- some programs like Marriage Builders have saved many marriages.
> 
> For couples with poor communication and/or problem solving techniques, I think searching for a plan that has worked for others in the same situation is probably the best bet. And many marriage problems come down to the same issues. Most couples' problems are not really unique.


I suspect some of the failures are "I think this is hopeless, but given what's at stake I'll give it a try". Not a bad idea, but its effect on the stats should be considered.


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## NobodySpecial

SpinyNorman said:


> I suspect some of the failures are "I think this is hopeless, but given what's at stake I'll give it a try". Not a bad idea, but its effect on the stats should be considered.


I agree. In marriage counseling in particular, people show up when they are already done.


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## Townes

SpinyNorman said:


> I suspect some of the failures are "I think this is hopeless, but given what's at stake I'll give it a try". Not a bad idea, but its effect on the stats should be considered.


Totally agree with that. Most people wait much too long to enter into therapy too after too much damage has been done. If people were proactive and preventative and got into therapy before problems became terminal, the outcomes would be much better. No different than any other health issue.


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## Laurentium

I don't think it's a scam -- but I would say that, because I am a marriage counsellor. So pay no attention to what I say -- I'm used to it. 



NobodySpecial said:


> In marriage counseling in particular, people show up when they are already done.


Yup. People leave it too late. I try to ask in session 1 if both people are really up for fixing it, and why. 



SpinyNorman said:


> As others have pointed out, the biggest problem is not "taking the prescribed medicine", which isn't a problem w/ the therapist but the patient.


Okay, but if you come along, and you can see that your partner isn't really interested in making any effort trying, so you split up: have I failed, or have I succeeded? Have you achieved the best outcome?



> Sometimes it really does help, and *if you think it is expensive, try paying for a divorce*.


I use that line a lot! 



LuckyM said:


> How do ya find the good ones?


Of course, look for someone you think you can work with. 

Also look for someone who does all, or nearly all, couple work, and has a multi-year training *in couple work*. There are a lot of (perfectly okay) general therapists out there, who do a few months, or even a few weeks, training in "working with couples", and then advertise for that. I have five years of university-level training _specifically in couple work_. And then all my weekly work is couples, so I have a lot of experience.

Also: do not use a counsellor who is already the individual counsellor for one of the couple. That's usually a disaster.


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## As'laDain

23cm said:


> Reading through many of the posts this morning, I see "counseling" and "therapy" recommended for a never ending variety of ills--from coping with unfaithful spouses to full-on b!tching and bulling by family, coworkers and partners.
> 
> What a crock. Mostly, it's useless palaver primarily designed to separate "patients" from their money through a combination of charlatanism and oogabooga science.
> 
> In my first marriage, we drew things out for an eternity trying to fix things with the help of marriage counseling. Over the course of two years, we saw 7, yes SEVEN because whenever the counselor even intimated that my ex might be wrong about something, it was over for him/her. Like a chump, I went along with the program because I believed in the efficacy of applied psychology. Not any more.
> 
> Most recently, I've been dealing with an alcoholic wife and after talking things over with our shared general practitioner, took the doc's advice to see a shrink--a psychiatrist -- the MD type. I attended my first session with a written list of issues that I wanted help with and expected outcomes--how I'd know when therapy was being successful. First session $420 (nonreimbursable by insurance) for an hour and a half of me explaining the problems. Second session, $180 for 45 minutes of me explaining the problem and him saying, "and how did you feel about that." Two more sessions of "And, how did you feel about that." The shrink told me nothing I didn't already know, there were no revelations or uncovered phobias.
> 
> Oh, there was the suggestion that I attend a Al Anon session for the insights and companionship it would afford. For that I spent nearly a thousand bucks. I told him I'd considered that but didn't agree with many of the group's tenets.
> 
> So, to all of you who get advised to see a counselor, be advised that it's a craps game with the house having the advantage.


dude, save yourself the money and the hassle and just post what changes you want here. chances are, someone has been down the road before.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

I found therapy about as useful as 3rd big toe. I think the people that swear by it, more or less just like to complain and are willing to pay someone to pretend to care.


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## Laurentium

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I found therapy about as useful as 3rd big toe. I think the people that swear by it, more or less just like to complain and are willing to pay someone to pretend to care.


There certainly are those people!


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## Jessica38

I’m a fan of marriage coaching, which provides actionable steps to recover and/or move forward, as opposed to rehashing the past.

I’ve heard great things about emotionally focused therapy. 

As for finding the right therapist, I think it’s best to research methods/modalities and find a therapist whose practice is dedicated to that approach.

EMDR therapy is excellent for healing trauma, for example, but requires certification in EMDR to practice.

As for cost, you’ll always pay more for a psychiatrist, who’s an MD. You certainly don’t need to start there unless you’re referred to one for a specific reason.

Many therapists, including those certified in EMDR, cost around $120/hour, even in high cost areas. 

Totally worth it IMO.


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## salparadise

personofinterest said:


> There are two cases in which therapy is absolutely useless:
> 
> 1. When the therapist is bad
> 2. When the person in therapy lies to the therapist or refuses to do the work


3. When the person in therapy is the biggest **** in the room, and nobody is capable of a thought that he hasn't already dismissed eons ago.

4. When the person in therapy makes a list of what needs fixing and how, but the therapist isn't so good at taking direction.


So Mr. Nine Inches, how on earth could you expect a therapist to cure your wife's alcoholism if you couldn't, despite already having the cliff notes?


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## SpinyNorman

Laurentium said:


> Okay, but if you come along, and you can see that your partner isn't really interested in making any effort trying, so you split up: have I failed, or have I succeeded? Have you achieved the best outcome?


You've done all that could be asked. I got accurate advice about a bad situation, and can now plan accordingly, which given my circumstance is the best possible outcome.

It's sort of like if I go to the doctor and he correctly diagnoses an incurable terminal illness. Bad news, good doctoring.


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