# Self Discovery is not much fun sometimes



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I have come to the realization that most of my perceived conflict between my wife and myself is really just a conflict with myself. 

My wife is very stable, very career driven, very motherhood driven. She is a wonderful person and one of the nicest people you would ever meet. She is very happy with herself.

At the same time, she has very little depth. She has lost all sense of herself, she has lost sense of who she is, what she wants out of life, and most importantly (at least to me), she has lost all sense of how to relate to people in anything other than a friendship/family dynamic. Any attempt to explore her via introspection is shot down - "I don't like looking inside."

I keep wondering - why not fix that? Why not see the hole in yourself and fix it? Or at least try? Why not take me on the journey with you, not as a guide or a partner but an interested spectator in who you could become? Instead, she says she does not want to change, and she likes feeling emotionless because others can look at her and draw from her calmness.

And then one day I just realize, if this is who she is, why change her? Isn't the conflict in myself? One part screaming to do the right thing, stay, make it work, and the other part just admitting that I am pretty miserable because everything is perfect in our marriage with the exception that I have no connection whatsoever with my wife and I'm not going to get one since she's unwilling to change.

I guess all along its been my move. And it's a pretty big step to take.

I met a younger gal the other night and it was so nice to talk to a woman about something other than kids and work. It was so nice to see her dressed up a bit to go out. It was so nice to see her smile at me. I went home, told my wife about it, and felt guilty. She told me that she sees in my eyes that I need to spend more time with her, and that it's ok. Which I understand is the most loving gesture on some level a person can make, but at the same time I just wish she'd step up and get a little jealous or put her foot down or something. Pushing me into the arms of someone else while I feel like this is the worst possible thing ever. It's as though my definition of a relationship is entirely different from hers.

Maybe it really is time to separate.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I'm glad you are coming to some kind of self-realization. You indeed can't change anyone but yourself.

Here's something for you to think about: WHY would a wife try to push her husband in to the arms of another and be okay with it?

You need to be very careful, Acorn, not to step outside the bounds of your marriage - and try and justify that it would be okay to do so - while you are in this turmoil because you are really vulnerable right now.

If you want confusion, pain, more angst than you could imagine, then sure. Is that what you want? You are on a 'man up' journey - so be a man who is honourable, compassionate, strong, a man of character.

Best wishes.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Funny how this stuff works sometimes, no?

She is content. No need or incentive to change. Content with who she is, how she conducts herself and what she's about.

You are not content. In that scenario it is only you that can be the engine of change.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I have come to the realization that most of my perceived conflict between my wife and myself is really just a conflict with myself.
> 
> My wife is very stable, very career driven, very motherhood driven. She is a wonderful person and one of the nicest people you would ever meet. She is very happy with herself.
> 
> ...


Take what she tells you as her truth. She really means it.

I think that probably means deep issues from her childhood. If she doesn’t want to go there and resolve them she wont no matter what you say or do. It is a shame because she’ll never grow and will always be what you see right in front of you now. Except she’ll get older. Some people are like that.

But change will come to her and it wont be a change she really wants. Maybe when you are long gone she’ll wake up, but there’s no guarantee.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Here's something for you to think about: WHY would a wife try to push her husband in to the arms of another and be okay with it?
> 
> You need to be very careful, Acorn, not to step outside the bounds of your marriage - and try and justify that it would be okay to do so - while you are in this turmoil because you are really vulnerable right now.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I cannot for the life of me understand why she would push me into another woman. The best I can figure is that she thinks of me like family, and if I really need to do something, go ahead. 

We get in little arguments because of stuff like this. For instance, she did not like it when I told her that her decision to go out with her (female) friend to a bar at 10pm without extending an invite to me was a poor choice. She admitted she got hit on, and yet she does not understand why this would bother me.

It is really hard to say "Don't go to a meat market without at least inviting me." to someone who says, "If you wanna spend some alone time with a hottie, go ahead."

Confusing. Communicating has done no good. I have tried to lay down the law and say, "How about no chicks for me and no girls bar nights for you?". She says, "I don't know if I can be that person."

And no, I do not think she is cheating - if she is, she is a master at hiding it, way better than I could do, lol.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I can't see that your wife either loves you or respects you.


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## lovestruckout (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm going through the same right of passage. My wife and I are separated, and only after I moved out am I realizing how well my wife and I played the 'perfect marriage' game. We don't fight, never have, we are great friends, we're passionate, we are attracted to each other, we ha(d)ve great sex....

Yet she was engaging in long-term affairs throughout our marriage.

What makes this particularly more complicated is that my WW is the only real relationship of my life. Met in high school, dated on and off until post-college, and I really came into myself at a point when my WW (prior to engagement) manipulated me by lying and gas lighting me that we were committed, yet she was in a steamy second relationship getting all the attention she could possibly want.

And as you say, my wife and I are very different. She is shallow, insecure, spiteful, and not on the level of intellect I am (we're talking simple stuff, like her comment that Hillary Clinton was a republican when she was running for primary against Obama....COME ON!!!!!!!). I was OK with my wife's short comings, and I have them as well. But jeez when your world comes apart and you take a look from the outside in, sometimes you really see things in a different light.

Could we win the OSCAR for 'best faked marriage'? It really was working well, and friends/family were pretty envious of what we shared and showed. 

That was then and now we're here.....

It's in my belief that I'd be able to better harness the strong coping ability I have to swallow her affairs and focus on moving forward - for the sake of the children at first - IF I had some other experiences to reflect upon.

For me, that is what brought this relationship to a grinding halt. The one woman I put all my stock in turned out to be a fraud. How on earth could I just hop back into things and say "let's do this, time to heal!!!".

I have been spending time with a new girl and she is pretty amazing. Serendipity played a fairly large role in my encounter with new girl as well, making this journey all the more unique. Had I not explored this new relationship, I know the curiosity would have developed into animosity towards my wife for keeping me at bay...when the healthy thing back in the day would have simply been for her to say "let's take a break and perhaps we will find our way back to each other". It happened more than once...but she wanted her cake cake cake.

Where things go from here...I don't know...but I am ok with it. No secrets on both ends (WW and GF), so I am just running with this.

Oh, I should add, I haven't had this type of fun in a long time. And I'm still involved with the kids as much as I was before - perhaps MORE even on the weekend now that I focus on them 100% w/o wife.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

^ It’s not until we’ve been out “looking back in” for a while that we really begin to understand our relationship with our wife. I’m most definitely seeing one heck of a two faced woman that I never saw before. She’d pulled the wool completely over my eyes. It’s almost like she’s schizophrenic, presenting one story to me and always with a smile, and a different story to just about anybody else. I still feel seriously betrayed but at least now I know what was really going on in my marriage. I think I was what’s called very gullible lol.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Acorn said:


> It is really hard to say "Don't go to a meat market without at least inviting me." to someone who says, "If you wanna spend some alone time with a hottie, go ahead."
> 
> Confusing. Communicating has done no good. I have tried to lay down the law and say, "How about no chicks for me and no girls bar nights for you?". She says, "I don't know if I can be that person."


I think her reply to your question provides you with many of the answers you seek. I disagree that she is content and doesn't seek to change (or perhaps she's already changed without telling you). I don't see this as simply her disrespect for you (perhaps disrespect for your marriage). She seems to be fine with the two of you drifting apart (you with your new gal pal and she in the meat market). At some point it seems she changed up the game rules of your marriage and didn't let you know about them. Sounds like you need to decide to accept the new game (perfect marriage on the outside/an empty shell on the inside) or move on to live a life more fulfilling for yourself. Tough choice. All the best to you.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I've been coming around to this idea that my marriage is not really what I define a marriage. It is really a sad thing when it hits you, it is very overwhelming.

I continue to work on myself. I have come to understand why co-dependence is really quite selfish and dishonest. You think you are doing so much for the other person, but really, you are only doing it for yourself.

A few days ago, I told my wife that I felt that we both had been pretty dishonest with each other over the course of the marriage. I firmly believe that neither one of us intended to be this way, but it was our wiring. I told her that all this time, I had made xxx yyy zzz sacrifices for her, but I have come to realize that I did them for me, to try to "earn" something in return.

What is funny is that I didn't recognize it in myself, but the last few years I really started resenting it when I saw it coming back at me. My wife would do some obscure chore that most would consider entirely unnecessary, and then be very mad that I didn't clean the rest of the house or something as a reward for doing a task that I didn't care much about.

I was, as seems to be the norm, surprised by her reaction. First, she claimed that all couples are dishonest in this way. I told her that if that were the case, I didn't want to be like most couples. And then she simply said that from now on she would be honest. Like it was a switch. A switch that had been in the "off" mode for almost a decade, but now is easily switched back and problem solved. 

I find myself alternating between believing I am outgrowing my wife and wondering if I am trying to justify in my head being a walk away spouse. We do seem to have one of those marriages where everything is perfect but it is empty inside. Maybe I'm just waking up to this. I love my wife, we rarely fight, and our friendship is strong... I just wish we could connect in that deeper way. I find myself longing for that connection more and more - I thought I had it this whole time, but maybe I've just been in denial this whole time. And I can see something different in my wife lately - very hard to describe. Almost like she feels the wheels are falling off, but doesn't know what to do about it. So she hugs me and tells me she loves me, and it just crushes me because I love her too... I guess I just need something more out of a marriage and most of the time I wish I could just go back in time when I didn't know better and thought everything was perfect.

No big questions in this post, just reflecting.


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## lovestruckout (Jul 6, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I find myself alternating between believing I am outgrowing my wife and wondering if I am trying to justify in my head being a walk away spouse. We do seem to have one of those marriages where everything is perfect but it is empty inside. Maybe I'm just waking up to this. I love my wife, we rarely fight, and our friendship is strong... I just wish we could connect in that deeper way. I find myself longing for that connection more and more - I thought I had it this whole time, but maybe I've just been in denial this whole time. And I can see something different in my wife lately - very hard to describe. Almost like she feels the wheels are falling off, but doesn't know what to do about it. So she hugs me and tells me she loves me, and it just crushes me because I love her too... I guess I just need something more out of a marriage and most of the time I wish I could just go back in time when I didn't know better and thought everything was perfect.
> 
> No big questions in this post, just reflecting.


Wow, I really can relate to this. Affairs aside, we too lived the myth of the perfect, fight free marriage. It was empty, yet we did a great job pretending it was perfect.

What I grapple with though, is whether you trade one set of problems for another. Is a comfortable, stable union worse than a passionate, intense, madly-in-love marriage that is fiery and often laden with disagreements? Ideally I'd love the passion and love in a perfect, non-fighting marriage, but I'm so short on marriage right now that I can't imagine that exists. 

It's fairly depressing, but the more you open up to friends about your marital problems, the more one (me in this case) sees that everyone is dealing with a problem. Where the problem stems from certainly varies (kids, relationship, money, etc...), but it doesn't matter at the end of the day because it infects the marital bond in the same way and begins to distance a couple from each other.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lovestruckout,

I've been in both types.

I can tell you that Type II is far more satisfying than Type I - especially if you can make progress.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The desire for a passionate and low maintenance marriage is as elusive as what we in the speculative markets call "chasing after the 'Holy Grail'."


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

morituri said:


> The desire for a passionate and low maintenance marriage is as elusive as what we in the speculative markets call "chasing after the 'Holy Grail'."


I had the Holy Grail for a very long time. I’m often stunned by what I read here and I find it exceptionally hard to relate to.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I've been coming around to this idea that my marriage is not really what I define a marriage. It is really a sad thing when it hits you, it is very overwhelming.
> 
> I continue to work on myself. I have come to understand why co-dependence is really quite selfish and dishonest. You think you are doing so much for the other person, but really, you are only doing it for yourself.
> 
> ...


You’re becoming more and more enlightened. It’s good but somewhat sad at the same time. You can see your ego at play and you are understanding your wife’s ego much better than before. Just keep on observing and you will learn more and more and change will happen.

The alternative to these things is to remain “ego centric”. A total and absolute inability to see your self, to be aware of your self. Many personality disordered people are this way, they cannot see themselves (or refuse to) and the affects they have on others. Many many people go right to the end of their days remaining ego centric and never get the ability to see themselves. How what they do (and what they don’t do) affects their own emotions and the emotions of others around them. A lot refuse to because they will not accept responsibility for the affect they have on others.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Not very proud of this update, but I have learned a lot.

(As a quick background, I come from an abusive childhood. My wife and I never fight, but have essentially a sexless relationship. She has destroyed a lot of trust I had in her earlier in the relationship, but I forgave and did my best to move on.)

Long story short, I did something really stupid. I went out with the younger gal I mentioned earlier in this post, I knew it was a bad idea, but I did it anyway, and things went too far - hands started roaming, etc. - until I realized what was going on and I shut it down. We did not go very far, but at the same time, we went way too far.

The next day, I told my wife what happened, and while I didn't go into the play by play, I was fairly specific; I then told her I felt I had been unfaithful, and asked what she would like me to do. She hugged me and said, "I love you and I'm glad you are with me right now." And that was it. It was like a mother telling her son that no matter what he did, she'll still love him.

I have often felt like on some levels, my wife and I have a father/child type relationship, but now I'm realizing that somehow at the same time on other levels, her love for me is mother/child. My IC is telling me that when people are abused at a younger age, they can get "stuck" in some ways developmental wise. Perhaps this is why we originally attracted each other in the first place. But I have been working hard on the issues and am growing up. My wife, being content, is not moving, so the growth vs. the stagnant marriage is possibly the reason I feel so hopeless all the time.

I am not trying to sweep my poor behavior under the rug - heck, I feel monumentally guilty and in any mature relationship I'm pretty sure I'd at minimum be on the couch for a good long while (if we weren't in separate beds already). But at the same time, I feel like I needed the experience. I needed to put myself in that situation and shut it down - and obviously I did not do very well, but I did shut it down before things went really really too far. I have no plans of seeing that woman again, and I asked my wife to help me with that goal so nothing bad will happen.

I am feeling like I am becoming self aware and even though I am very flawed right now, I am truly working on fixing things. I am making some really good choices and some really bad ones, but they are all mine. For the first time ever.

The real trouble is, my wife is not participating. She is not in IC, she does not see what is happening, she does not understand that if I truly am growing up to a point where I am feeling the need for a "real" adult relationship and not a parent/child one, I'm going to have to let her go unless she can grow up too. It is very depressing, because I love her very much, and we have such a long history together. And I really don't want to hurt her, and that's what it's going to come down to - all our conflict lately is because I want to put adult expectations/responsibilities on our relationship and she is not there right now.

Any thoughts appreciated.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Just to add, please do not read my post and think I am justifying what happened, or blaming anyone other than myself.

My point is that I am recognizing my needs, I have decided that a healthy sexual relationship is important (among other things), and that if my wife isn't going to recognize my needs, I should let her go before it hurts all involved. I own my infraction. I am worried about future infractions and if my wife isn't interested in this kind of relationship, I need to leave so she is not hurt and so I can have a hope of getting my needs met as well. 

This seems to me to be the manned-up perspective.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Just to add, please do not read my post and think I am justifying what happened, or blaming anyone other than myself.
> 
> My point is that I am recognizing my needs, I have decided that a healthy sexual relationship is important (among other things), and that if my wife isn't going to recognize my needs, I should let her go before it hurts all involved. I own my infraction. I am worried about future infractions and if my wife isn't interested in this kind of relationship, I need to leave so she is not hurt and so I can have a hope of getting my needs met as well.
> 
> This seems to me to be the manned-up perspective.


It is quite the journey you are going through, and most needed as well to get through your past. Take pride in your accomplishments thus far!

I can only add... have you talked with your wife about her needs recently? Has she been able to openly, honestly in love express what is in her heart concerning the marriage? You mention the inability of your wife meeting your needs, how are you meeting hers?? Have you discussed this? Perhaps your wife is not considering your needs if you are not considering hers.With years of her only knowing a mother/child type of marriage relationship, it is going to take time for her to truly understand and see the shift you are going through. It would be a false expectation to assume she is going to progress at the rate that you are. Someone has to take the first step in the positive feedback loop.

Best wishes..


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I know this is the men's clubhouse, but I wanted to offer you a comment. Firstly, I'm so sorry things have progressed to this, and I hope you are able to get your needs met in your next relationship 
I think you deserve credit and respect for trying to resolve your own differences or past issues (absolutely nothing but good comes from that!) Good for you, that takes courage.

Someone here (I think unbeliveable) recently stated something about wording this phrase..."if we aren't having sex together, does that mean we are free to sleep with other people".

Reading your posts, if you are having NOT sex with your wife, it can be taken as you do not have a relationship. As a woman, that is true for me. That is how I take it. If we are sleeping in separate bedrooms, the intimacy is not there, and the rest of the caring, affection, sharing, isn't there. It's like you are already separated. 

Literally. If my husband came home and told me the same story, I might react the same way your wife did. I am well aware that his needs are not being met, we are "separated" within the same house, and it's most likely just a matter of time because things are moving so very slowly and we have not found a counselling service we can agree on. I understand that we are both at a high risk for finding someone else to meet our needs. I wouldn't blame him a bit. 

Is it possible she does understand this as well? 

Fixing things might seem like a huge task to her, and maybe she does realise that she would need to look at those unresolved issues in her past. That's pretty scary. Although I think the "right" counsellor could do it. Someone she trusts. Right now... her choices might be dealing with the demons (which she is too scared to do) or letting you be happy. I hope for her sake she is able to get past this. 

Good luck.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

RoseRed said:


> It is quite the journey you are going through, and most needed as well to get through your past. Take pride in your accomplishments thus far!
> 
> I can only add... have you talked with your wife about her needs recently? Has she been able to openly, honestly in love express what is in her heart concerning the marriage? You mention the inability of your wife meeting your needs, how are you meeting hers?? Have you discussed this? Perhaps your wife is not considering your needs if you are not considering hers.With years of her only knowing a mother/child type of marriage relationship, it is going to take time for her to truly understand and see the shift you are going through. It would be a false expectation to assume she is going to progress at the rate that you are. Someone has to take the first step in the positive feedback loop.
> 
> Best wishes..


Thank you for your kind words. I really am trying to be proud, although this is the hardest thing I've ever tried to work through in my life.

I have talked to my wife about her needs and despite what she will tell you, she is currently as codependent as I was. I have come to understand that she views the status of our marriage entirely through my eyes. I have tried to help her... ask a lot of questions like, "What do you want?", "Never mind me, do you think xxx?", etc. It is extremely difficult for me to understand where she is, largely because she does not know where she is. It seems to me that logically, the fact that she consistently finds ways to avoid me once she feels like I've been tended to makes me think that she is loyal to the marriage but really does not think all that much of me generally. I wish I knew whether that was true.

As part of the man-up process, I am trying to become less needy, less emotional, etc., and this in turn is hardening her somehow. To think that I am having this effect on her hurts me very much. But to answer your question, she has told me recently that I am meeting her needs better now than I ever have before.

And as part of that, she cannot express to me what she feels in her heart. It destroys me inside that her first reaction to me talking about divorce was, "OMG What will my friends think?". I want to believe that she is in there somewhere, but even if she is, I need her to express it once in a while. I guess words of affection are more important to me than I would have thought a few years ago.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

In my opinion, what happened to you is not surprising. I'm not trying to judge your integrity, but only offering that a woman like your wife should understand that there is a huge, gaping hole of needs not being met.

Cliche advice alert: I'd really enocourage you to take plenty of time to consider what you want if you decide to divorce. In my case, we are trying to reconcile, but I've had to give myself a bit of a deadline, because it really looks like the weekly therapy would put us years away from fixing things. When I first thought of divorce as a possible option, I thought much like you do. However, over time, I've accepted that my goals would be completely different if I divorced. I began to realize that in a long relationship, I've kind've surrounded myself by so many walls that the world outside of being married is not at all like I judged it to be a year ago - and I'm still working to reconcile. My self discovery journey has been more like being hit by a 2 X 4. I just require a much, much simpler life than most people would be willing to accept. 

Be careful that you are interpreting your wife's response correctly. Is it possible that she's encouraging this relationship, while pretending to be just accepting? Wondered if she could be waiting for you to sleep with the woman so you would be the villian who destroyed the marriage.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> I know this is the men's clubhouse, but I wanted to offer you a comment. Firstly, I'm so sorry things have progressed to this, and I hope you are able to get your needs met in your next relationship
> I think you deserve credit and respect for trying to resolve your own differences or past issues (absolutely nothing but good comes from that!) Good for you, that takes courage.
> 
> Someone here (I think unbeliveable) recently stated something about wording this phrase..."if we aren't having sex together, does that mean we are free to sleep with other people".
> ...


Thank you deejov.

After my kids came along, my wife withdrew sexually and spent the majority of nights sleeping away from the bedroom with the kids. This went on for a number of years. (I know every guy reading this will wonder why I put up with it, but the truth is, I guess I didn't know better. I thought I deserved it somehow.)

She has recently "resolved" this issue by saying she will never say no to me. That's all well and good, but I do not want sex to be about her being on-demand to me. It feels worse than no sex at all. I'd like to see desire in her eyes, maybe a little noise, or even just hearing that she needs me. 

I have tried very hard to think back and I don't think I ever had this with her. I thought I did. But now, I see it differently. She likes when I take out the trash, so she'll lay there for me because I like it. That sort of thing. It seems so cold and emotionless now. It is sad.

The thing is, I have had the pleasure of knowing a really great woman for a decade and I don't care what anyone says, I believe in her heart there is a fire there and I want to see it very badly. I want to make her comfortable, I want to feel it, share it, and experience her growth as well. The flip side of that is, I've been trying for so many years that most of the time, when I am with her, I feel sadness that I never will. I know it is not meant against me personally, but it feels that way after a while. Like she is withholding from me.

But you are right, maybe she was so happy I came back and that we had a little more time that she forgave it. When I think of things like that, I want to see hope.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

And if you aren't having sex with your wife... the real fire, intimacy, desire, growth, might not happen. 
You are getting half of her, and you have half a relationship.

Maybe you are the only one that viewed it as emotionless? It might take a few close sessions to get her to open up. But it certainly won't happen if you say no because she isn't acting like the firecracker you want her to be. Geez.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Halien said:


> In my opinion, what happened to you is not surprising. I'm not trying to judge your integrity, but only offering that a woman like your wife should understand that there is a huge, gaping hole of needs not being met.
> 
> Cliche advice alert: I'd really enocourage you to take plenty of time to consider what you want if you decide to divorce. In my case, we are trying to reconcile, but I've had to give myself a bit of a deadline, because it really looks like the weekly therapy would put us years away from fixing things. When I first thought of divorce as a possible option, I thought much like you do. However, over time, I've accepted that my goals would be completely different if I divorced. I began to realize that in a long relationship, I've kind've surrounded myself by so many walls that the world outside of being married is not at all like I judged it to be a year ago - and I'm still working to reconcile. My self discovery journey has been more like being hit by a 2 X 4. I just require a much, much simpler life than most people would be willing to accept.
> 
> Be careful that you are interpreting your wife's response correctly. Is it possible that she's encouraging this relationship, while pretending to be just accepting? Wondered if she could be waiting for you to sleep with the woman so you would be the villian who destroyed the marriage.


Thanks Halien. The odd thing about self discovery is that for all my life, I have hated the thought of cheating. I've been cheated on and it hurt badly. And yet, when push comes to shove, for me, apparently it was pretty easy to do what I did. I am capable of cheating, and I am a cheater. What a great discovery, sigh. 

Could you elaborate on the silver text above if you have time? Right now I am having a hard time seeing past the pain and I might benefit from your experience. If I were to divorce today, my goals would be to start eating better again, get in better shape, reconnect with my hobbies and family, and start dating again when I felt comfortable. I think dating would seem a lot different to me after all these changes.

I mentioned before that it is very hard to get a read on my wife because she is not very free with her emotions or words. She is the most forgiving person I've ever met, so I tend to think there is no ploy going on. 

I told my wife that I was going out with her that night before it happened. I told her that if she said that was too much, I would cancel. She said, "I know you need to go. I am worried that Kelly will steal you away from me." So, I think that she fears I will leave more than anything else.

At the same time, when I tell her that I didn't want to see the woman, that I wanted to be where I was and I wanted us to grow a bit and try to meet each other's needs better, she clams up and says, "I don't think I can be that person. If she can give you what you need, go."

Truth is, she could be that person very easily. I am very laid back and believe I'm pretty low maintenance. I can't help her see that, though.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Wow. You basically ask your wife permission to go out and see another woman, won't sleep with her because she's not into it enough for you, and you wonder why she is emotionally not there?

If she's not a strong confident person.. of course she's gonna roll over and let you walk away. 

If my husband was standing at the door saying "I'm going to go out and see another woman", unless you do this and this ... (okay, you told her the night before) I'm pretty sure I would have kicked your butt out the door myself. 

I think a more appropriate response would have been to never gone in the first place. You feel you are pretty low maintence and laid back. Except you are telling your wife you are going out to see other women. So I'm not sure what you are saying? She should be laid back about this? Isn't that what she is doing? I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. Are you trying to snap your wife back into what you want by having an affair? Very unconventional.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Could you elaborate on the silver text above if you have time? Right now I am having a hard time seeing past the pain and I might benefit from your experience. If I were to divorce today, my goals would be to start eating better again, get in better shape, reconnect with my hobbies and family, and start dating again when I felt comfortable. I think dating would seem a lot different to me after all these changes..


Because I had severe abandonment issues as a kid, I gave emotionally with everything I had because my wife had chronic, severe bipolar depression. It took 22 years to realize how much it hurt to see her smile at friends in a way I never saw. Or to hear her talk about things, or laugh with others, while our conversations were nearly 100% focused on what she felt was missing in the relationship. I came to realize that if I divorced and remarried, it would have to take a saint not to be scared off by the constant checking I would do to prevent a recurrance of that. And the fact that I'm financially successful, yet live a very simple life. When I bought my wife a luxury car, it eventually bothered us so much that we got rid of it. And what is facebook, or reality TV, anyway? I prefer the quietness of music, or hiking in the mountains.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Halien, that is awesome! Inner peace is priceless, and no one can take that away from you. Materialism is highly overrated.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

_If I were to divorce today, my goals would be to start eating better again, get in better shape, reconnect with my hobbies and family, and start dating again when I felt comfortable. I think dating would seem a lot different to me after all these changes._

WHY are you not doing these things for yourself, and for your marriage, right now?? Why doesn't your wife deserve to see the new improved you? Just curious as to why you've said after divorce.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Thanks Halien. The odd thing about self discovery is that for all my life, I have hated the thought of cheating. I've been cheated on and it hurt badly. And yet, when push comes to shove, for me, apparently it was pretty easy to do what I did. I am capable of cheating, and I am a cheater. What a great discovery, sigh.
> 
> Could you elaborate on the silver text above if you have time? Right now I am having a hard time seeing past the pain and I might benefit from your experience. If I were to divorce today, my goals would be to start eating better again, get in better shape, reconnect with my hobbies and family, and start dating again when I felt comfortable. I think dating would seem a lot different to me after all these changes.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your wife is the female version of the "nice guy". Allowing you go to out with her friend that you obviously have some spark with sounds, at least to me, like an extension of her belief that she doesn't deserve to be loved due to whatever flaws she perceives in herself. She thinks they're so ingrained in her that she can never be the woman you want her to be, and so she (passive-aggressively) tells you she understands if you leave her. In this way, she can internally martyrize herself and continue being the tragic, unlovable character that she truly believes she is.

If her first response to divorce was "what will our friends think?", then either your wife is truly shallow or (my opinion) she really is a "nice guy". Nice guys operate under constant threat of disappointing others and thus spend much emotional and spiritual energy being whoever they must be to keep those relationships intact. They lose themselves in all these disparate personas by stuffing how they really feel so far down that they reach a point that they have no idea who they are anymore. However, you've effectively called her bluff by telling her you want the real her, the one that's inside. Truth is, she's so scared of and unfamiliar with that person that it's probably the last thing she wants.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Wow. You basically ask your wife permission to go out and see another woman, won't sleep with her because she's not into it enough for you, and you wonder why she is emotionally not there?
> 
> If she's not a strong confident person.. of course she's gonna roll over and let you walk away.
> 
> ...


OK, I'm sorry, I'm pretty down today, let me try to explain this better.

I told my wife I'd be going out. I told her where. I told her that the woman would be there. My wife knows about this woman. I asked if that would bother her. She said no. I told her she looked bothered. She said she was worried that the woman would steal me away some day. I told my wife that I loved her and wanted to be with her. She said, "I know you need to see her." She said she knows I'm going through my growth and that I need to "see what's out there" to "make my decision". I told my wife that I didn't need to do that to know I wanted her. She asked if we were all better. I said, "We are getting along better but I'm having trouble finding a way to explain what I need from a marriage without [her] getting angry." She said, "I know what you need but I can't be that person." I told her I thought she could be, that I was growing and she could too, and maybe we could start focusing on each other instead of all the distractions in our marriage. She clams up and says, "If she can give you what you need, go."

I'm putting myself out there and saying this isn't my finest hour. 

Do you know what my needs are? I'd like her to stop sleeping with my kids who are almost 10. I'd like her to recognize that the doctor has said that her health (weight) is very serious and that her taking blood pressure medicine starting in her 30s is a serious red flag that needs attention. I'd like her to admit that setting up a secret match.com account is not appropriate in a marriage, nor is squirreling away thousands of dollars from our bank account to her private account. And I'd like her to spend 10 or so hours a week with me away from the kids. Are those high expectations in a marriage?

I'd just like her to once say something remotely close to, "I want you and I'd like to try to meet your needs too."


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> _If I were to divorce today, my goals would be to start eating better again, get in better shape, reconnect with my hobbies and family, and start dating again when I felt comfortable. I think dating would seem a lot different to me after all these changes._
> 
> WHY are you not doing these things for yourself, and for your marriage, right now?? Why doesn't your wife deserve to see the new improved you? Just curious as to why you've said after divorce.


As part of my attempts to fix the marriage, I started eating better, my weight got to below my married weight - best shape of my life. I reconnected with some of my hobbies, and tried to do the cliche stuff like cooking healthier foods and asking her to join me on walks.

The net result was her refusal to join me on any of my activities and her gaining about 10 pounds. She was literally the only person that was not complimenting me during the process.

I maintained things for about a year, then my depression sunk in and I lost some of my gains. (I do not blame her for my depression or my lack of control.) Now that I'm crawling out, I'd like to get better.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I cannot remember who posted it ... as it was some time ago, but every once in a while you come across some profound statements around here.

The quote was:
"When someone tells you the truth of who they are, believe them."

Your wife is consistently telling you that she ISN'T the woman you want her to be. And you are consistently hurt and disappointed by that news.

Given what you have written about your spouse, I am having difficulty understanding why you continue to defer to her regarding your emotional choices. "I'm going out with another woman, but I won't go if you don't want me to." and "I have no plans of seeing that woman again, and I asked my wife to help me with that so nothing bad will happen."

I'm not trying to rub your nose in this, but as part of your self-discovery, you need to be aware of it.

Something 'bad' was already going on. Something bad was going on before you agreed to a date with another woman, and told your wife that was exactly what you were doing.

You simply cannot count on your wife to help right the course of this foundering ship. She doesn't have it in her, and even if she does, her not choosing to may be specific to YOU. That can be a bitter pill to swallow.

Stop self-flagellating. Seriously.

Decide what the steps are that you both need to take. If she declines or refuses, then take the steps YOU need to take.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Davelli0331 said:


> Truth is, she's so scared of and unfamiliar with that person that it's probably the last thing she wants.


She has told me before that she does not like to look inside. Anything from her being scared to "there's nothing there".

She has also said somewhat recently that she enjoys having the friendship of thousands of people but she does not want to know anyone deeply.

You are probably right on the money.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I cannot remember who posted it ... as it was some time ago, but every once in a while you come across some profound statements around here.
> 
> The quote was:
> "When someone tells you the truth of who they are, believe them."
> ...


It hurts to hear but thanks.

I still am very codependent on my wife as well, apparently. There are 1,000 reasons for either of us to leave, yet we don't.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Stop playing games with her. I told her I was going out... I told her I was going to see another woman...you didn't ask. You were hurt that she didn't get all jealous and flip out. 

You made some good changes in your life, but I'm not sure you did it for "you". Which is what is important. Maybe you missed the point of that? She didn't follow suit... so you lost your gains.

The point of improving yourself is to feel better about you, and focus on you. Not on trying to get her to change. You only control you, and she's well aware of it. You can't make her lose weight, or take better care of herself, or do anything. You can't shock her by having an affair (which you clearly are, EA or otherwise) and now you have put a huge elephant into your marriage. 

So I have to ask. Does she have needs in this relationship? Are you meeting them? How are you going to handle the affair?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Stop playing games with her. I told her I was going out... I told her I was going to see another woman...you didn't ask. You were hurt that she didn't get all jealous and flip out.
> 
> You made some good changes in your life, but I'm not sure you did it for "you". Which is what is important. Maybe you missed the point of that? She didn't follow suit... so you lost your gains.
> 
> ...


I think tonight I'm going to tell her that I appreciate her giving me the green light to sleep with other people and I appreciate all the acts of service that she does, but I can't live with a marriage like that. I am going to tell her the offer to sleep around has always felt like a cop out of sorts. I feel very guilty about seeing that woman regardless of whether it was "OK" with my wife or not. I'm going to tell her that the one thing in the marriage that I want and need is her emotional presence and without it, I feel like it's a sham of a marriage. I'm going to tell her that I appreciate all her efforts but I'm disappointed in myself for pushing so hard for her to open up all these years and I didn't want to push any more. I am going to tell her that my preference is that I want her to be my wife - physically and emotionally - or I need to take a break from this marriage. And I'll ask which she wants, and if she wants us to stay together, what steps she's going to take live up to her end and what I can do better to make her happy.

She tells me every day I am meeting every need she has. Her needs are financial, acts of service, and security and we are fortunate to be fairly well off.

There is nothing to be done with the other woman. I already have my wife's blessing to sleep around (which I have never taken), so in her eyes she is literally happy it didn't go that far. I will have to live with the guilt.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I guess the biggest thing I'm learning from this experience is that I do not want to be a cheater. I think I keep waiting for her to get angry at me, but she doesn't care, apparently. But I do. 

I need to get angry at myself and take steps to fix it.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I guess the biggest thing I'm learning from this experience is that I do not want to be a cheater. I think I keep waiting for her to get angry at me, but she doesn't care, apparently. But I do.


Good for you, Acorn. Being a man of integrity and honor will only ever serve you well and it will take you far, even if it may not seem like it at times.

_"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experiences of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved." ~ Helen Keller _

Wishing you success.


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## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I guess the biggest thing I'm learning from this experience is that I do not want to be a cheater. I think I keep waiting for her to get angry at me, but she doesn't care, apparently. But I do.
> 
> I need to get angry at myself and take steps to fix it.


Acorn, are you trying to essentially force her to fight for you, in a sense? And if she does then she will reclaim your heart and participation in the marriage? I was in a similar situation with an ex a long time ago where for whatever reason I wanted to set up a choice between me and someone else--anyone else--and that if she chose me, it validated her loyalty to me. An ego thing I suppose. I did ended up getting what I wanted and she went on to find the love of her life. 

It is a little puzzling that she isn't putting up much of a fight, letting you cheat without recourse. I don't really know but even though she's coming across as a "nice guy," maybe she wants you to cheat so she can leave the marriage easily (more solid grounds for divorce), or that it will make you the bad guy. I'm particularly concerned that you state "nor is squirreling away thousands of dollars from our bank account to her private account." From what I understand, this is sometimes what people do when they are setting up for divorce. From what you're posting it does seem she is telling you that she isn't going to be what you want her to be. 

Tough situation and best of luck.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Good for you, Acorn. Being a man of integrity and honor will only ever serve you well and it will take you far, even if it may not seem like it at times.
> 
> _"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experiences of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved." ~ Helen Keller _
> 
> Wishing you success.


Thank you Enchantment. Whether I make good or bad choices, they are my choices now and I need to keep trying to learn and do my best so I can live with myself at the end of the day.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

mr.rightaway said:


> I'm particularly concerned that you state "nor is squirreling away thousands of dollars from our bank account to her private account." From what I understand, this is sometimes what people do when they are setting up for divorce. From what you're posting it does seem she is telling you that she isn't going to be what you want her to be.


I re-read these posts and saw that, too. Idk why I didn't notice it before. Also, immediately before that statement, OP said that she would not admit that setting up a match.com profile was inappropriate. The money siphoning and secret match.com profile are worrying. Is there more story to that, Acorn?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> Acorn, are you trying to essentially force her to fight for you, in a sense? And if she does then she will reclaim your heart and participation in the marriage? I was in a similar situation with an ex a long time ago where for whatever reason I wanted to set up a choice between me and someone else--anyone else--and that if she chose me, it validated her loyalty to me. An ego thing I suppose. I did ended up getting what I wanted and she went on to find the love of her life.
> 
> It is a little puzzling that she isn't putting up much of a fight, letting you cheat without recourse. I don't really know but even though she's coming across as a "nice guy," maybe she wants you to cheat so she can leave the marriage easily (more solid grounds for divorce), or that it will make you the bad guy. I'm particularly concerned that you state "nor is squirreling away thousands of dollars from our bank account to her private account." From what I understand, this is sometimes what people do when they are setting up for divorce. From what you're posting it does seem she is telling you that she isn't going to be what you want her to be.
> 
> Tough situation and best of luck.


It's hard to describe. 

Living with someone who gives unconditional love and expects it in return as a spouse can be the biggest blessing and the biggest curse one could experience.

The blessing is that you can basically make any mistake you want and it's forgiven. For instance, going too far with that woman was instantly forgiven. Just like that. You never have to worry about losing that love.

The curse is that nothing will ever change. Marriage becoming sexless? He'll accept me for who I am. Don't have time for him? He should accept me for who I am. Etc.

If anything, I wanted her to step up and say that there was a limit, but after thinking about it, I shouldn't really care if she has limits. I should decide on my own limits and enforce them. Sometimes it is so hard to see things a different way after knowing nothing different.

I do sometimes wonder that if I feel the need to test her limits, maybe she wants to leave the marriage and doesn't really realize it, so she sets up a scenario that will test her limits as well. She acts in a behavior that might lead to something going too far, even for her?? I dunno.

I'd kill for a 5 minute conversation that started with "About us, I think..."


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Davelli0331 said:


> I re-read these posts and saw that, too. Idk why I didn't notice it before. Also, immediately before that statement, OP said that she would not admit that setting up a match.com profile was inappropriate. The money siphoning and secret match.com profile are worrying. Is there more story to that, Acorn?


I noticed these things when I was feeling particularly worried about us and snooped a bit. The money thing was a mistake apparently. I never got a real good answer about the matchmaking site. I felt a little embarrassed about snooping so I haven't looked since then.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Davelli0331 said:


> I re-read these posts and saw that, too. Idk why I didn't notice it before. Also, immediately before that statement, OP said that she would not admit that setting up a match.com profile was inappropriate. The money siphoning and secret match.com profile are worrying. Is there more story to that, Acorn?


Kinda sounds like setting up an exit strategy.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I noticed these things when I was feeling particularly worried about us and snooped a bit. The money thing was a mistake apparently. I never got a real good answer about the matchmaking site. I felt a little embarrassed about snooping so I haven't looked since then.


If you didn't get a real good answer about it, perhaps you should do some more digging. It could be that your wife was feeling just as despondent as you are and made a similar mistake as you did with her friend, or it could be something more nefarious.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Kinda sounds like setting up an exit strategy.


I agree. That's why I mentioned that Acorn should make sure that he understands her true motivations for being okay with the affair. Even though intentions may be mixed (she really feels what you think she does, but there is more to it than just that), she can also receive validation to divorce if the spouse cheats.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Maybe I am completely naive. I have told her many times that if she was not attracted to me or did not want to work on us, that I would be very fair and wouldn't fight a divorce. That I would rather end it now and be as friendly as possible, rather than just hurt each other. Why wouldn't she just take that offer?


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Maybe I am completely naive. I have told her many times that if she was not attracted to me or did not want to work on us, that I would be very fair and wouldn't fight a divorce. That I would rather end it now and be as friendly as possible, rather than just hurt each other. Why wouldn't she just take that offer?


Go spend some time in the "Coping with Infidelity" forum, or really any of the other forums, since so many posts lead to a discovery of infidelity. Not saying your wife is cheating, but you will find scores, and I mean sh!t-tons, of stories of couples where a spouse stepped out of the marriage instead of just ending it. No kids, not a lot of marital assets, < 10 years married, and lots of talking about the relationship to make sure nothing was wrong. Still, spouses cheat.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Maybe I am completely naive. I have told her many times that if she was not attracted to me or did not want to work on us, that I would be very fair and wouldn't fight a divorce. That I would rather end it now and be as friendly as possible, rather than just hurt each other. Why wouldn't she just take that offer?


Understand that we could be reading too much into things, but remember it bothered you that she was worried about what her friends would think with one of your previous questions to her? To some women, initiating a divorce is a shameful thing, especially among her friends. But if he's a lyin' cheatin' sack of ****, then its okay. Of course, I write fiction as a hobby....


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My oft-used phrase is; "perception is everything."

I'm interested to know why you perceive her indifference to your needs, her own behavior, and your behavior ... as unconditional love?

It isn't. 

So, does she have a separate account and an online dating profile or not? 

And let's be clear ... her behavior has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'Nice Guy' behavior. Were she afflicted with the female equivalent, you'd be getting laid every day. Her feeling good about herself would be directly linked into whether or not you felt good about yourself ... and that most certainly is not the case.

You need to get to the place where you no longer feel the need to rationalize, justify, defend, or analyze her behavior and trying to put a positive 'spin' on it. 

I often encourage people in circumstances such as yours to get comfortable with being selfish. Quite frankly it is a necessary step to either mend, or end the relationship. What you fail to see is that your wife is already there. She IS serving her needs and interests, to the exclusion of yours.

I'm not saying she's wrong and you are right. I'm not saying she is bad and you are good. There comes a point where those tags simply no longer have any meaning. 

You either have two people that willingly wish to serve the relationship for the benefit of both parties, or you don't. 

And you already know where things stand in that equation.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> As part of my attempts to fix the marriage, I started eating better, my weight got to below my married weight - best shape of my life. I reconnected with some of my hobbies, and tried to do the cliche stuff like cooking healthier foods and asking her to join me on walks.
> 
> The net result was her refusal to join me on any of my activities and her gaining about 10 pounds. She was literally the only person that was not complimenting me during the process.
> 
> I maintained things for about a year, then my depression sunk in and I lost some of my gains. (*I do not blame her for my depression or my lack of control.*) Now that I'm crawling out, I'd like to get better.


I wouldn’t be too quick with that judgement. We all have emotional needs and your wife is not only ignoring yours, she’s trashing them where she can. What man would not feel immensely sad to hear his wife say she doesn’t care if he goes with other women? Depression is a deep sadness that extends for over a month. That’s what it is. I think your wife put you there and she’s keeping you there.

But it is for you to decide how to Respond to your wife’s emotional abuse. You do that with boundaries. Things you will not tolerate. Your boundaries are your rules concerning how you will and how you will not be treated. You are trying to negotiate and compromise with a woman who just doesn’t seem to care about your emotions whatsoever. Seems to me the ONLY reason she keeps you by her side is finances and security. That’s it! Nothing else most especially not your emotional and physical needs!

She's not even prepared to address your needs, EVEN TO KEEP WHAT SHE NEEDS! She's slowly but surely killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. (that's you by the way and the golden eggs are finances and security).

Look, life is a journey with excursions along the way but the final destiny is death. I reckon it’s best to enjoy it while you have it. And if you’re not enjoying your current excursion then get off the path and create a new one. At least then you’ll have a chance of happiness and joy.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Maybe I am completely naive. I have told her many times that if she was not attracted to me or did not want to work on us, that I would be very fair and wouldn't fight a divorce. That I would rather end it now and be as friendly as possible, rather than just hurt each other. Why wouldn't she just take that offer?


Because she’s keeping you by her side for financial and security reasons!



That’s how some do these things and the marriage becomes a real sham, a shell of a marriage. No sex, no emotional support, no honesty, no appreciation, no soul mates etc. etc. etc.




Sometimes you have to take yourself off of the pedestal you put yourself on as well as taking your wife off of the pedestal you put her on.

And then standing firmly on the ground you can at least begin to see what is what.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Okay, I will point out here that she does not deny him sex.

He has said she's not "into it enough" and does not show enough emotion, so he would rather not do it. Sounds more transactional... she likes when he takes out the garbage and helps around the house, so he "perceives" that is why she has sex. Nothing about what SHE says about all of this, just the OP saying she isn't a hot firecracker full of emotion, even during sex. 

He wants a firecracker, full of emotion, for a wife. And he's not getting that. So he goes out with another woman instead.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I have come to the realization that most of my perceived conflict between my wife and myself is really just a conflict with myself.
> 
> My wife is very stable, very career driven, very motherhood driven. *She is a wonderful person and one of the nicest people you would ever meet. She is very happy with herself.*At the same time, she has very little depth. She has lost all sense of herself, she has lost sense of who she is, what she wants out of life, and most importantly (at least to me), she has lost all sense of how to relate to people in anything other than a friendship/family dynamic. Any attempt to explore her via introspection is shot down - "I don't like looking inside."
> 
> ...


Please consider reading your first page again.
Learn to love yourself, and you won't be full of pain searching for someone who will pour and ooze emotions and soothe your soul and ego. Try religion. Seriously. 
As you have said, you "grew up a bit" and she hasn't. 
Not your place to decide what she should do with her life.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Okay, I will point out here that she does not deny him sex.
> 
> He has said she's not "into it enough" and does not show enough emotion, so he would rather not do it. Sounds more transactional... she likes when he takes out the garbage and helps around the house, so he "perceives" that is why she has sex. Nothing about what SHE says about all of this, just the OP saying she isn't a hot firecracker full of emotion, even during sex.
> 
> He wants a firecracker, full of emotion, for a wife. And he's not getting that. So he goes out with another woman instead.


In therapy, my wife has said at random points that "she is no longer an emotional person", she "views sex as a method to get a guy or have a baby", and "I would be perfectly content to never have sex with anyone again." There is a big difference between that and insisting on someone being a firecracker in my book. 

I understand you think badly of my choices, and I don't blame you, but I have never said anything like the words you are putting in my mouth. 

At any rate, thank you for reading my post, I appreciate your perspective.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Last night I had a chat with my wife - not exactly according to the script but it wasn't bad.

It was a very hard conversation... the meat of the convo was that I told her again I was sorry (to which she replied I had no need to be, I had her permission), that I thought she deserved better (to which she replied she had exactly what and who she wanted, but she felt I deserved better), and that I thought that we both might be happier if we didn't have the expectations of the other hanging over our heads all the time. 

She apologized and said she understood she had let me down earlier in the marriage. She said she knows the current situation is her fault. I told her it was a marriage and that any blame is 50/50, and that we both made a lot of mistakes and the best thing we can do is try to learn from it.

I asked if she thought it were best if we separated now or tried for a little longer and stick together through the holidays. She said she wanted to keep trying. She has told me that she has hardened since the kids have been born, and she doesn't know how to change that. I suggested IC since it has helped me so much. I know she will not go, but I figured I'd try.

This is the most she's opened up to me in a very long time. It felt good.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Ah, more information. All I saw was ...
"She is not in IC, she does not see what is happening", and you mentioned you have gone to IC, but no mention of MC or group counseling? So you have gone to therapy together?

It helps to hear what she thinks about all of this.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What are the things that you want to accomplish for YOU?

Or, is it all tied to trying to still win your spouse or change her thinking? It's ok if that's the case. It's part of the arc. Certainly not something I'm going to beat you up over.

Knowing what you want, and being able to come terms with the steps to get you there will put you on the right path ... even if you don't know what the right path is.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Ah, more information. All I saw was ...
> "She is not in IC, she does not see what is happening", and you mentioned you have gone to IC, but no mention of MC or group counseling? So you have gone to therapy together?
> 
> It helps to hear what she thinks about all of this.


It is hard to sum up a long history but yes we have gone to MC. 

If I were to try to sum up what my wife says, it would be that she has many time commitments - work, family, friends, facebook, neighbors, etc. She sees my request for quality one on one time as a threat to those things. In the beginning, I'd ask for more time, and she's always have some other commitment. After a while, I started asking her to give up some commitments, so there would be more time for us - she has refused. She views it as controlling. And my frustration is that I'm HAPPY that she is so involved in things, but I'm upset that there is no time left for me - but in asking her to spend less time on her distractions, I am controlling, and it never works. We never get anywhere.

I know I have thrown this out in another thread, but we have never once had a vacation that did not involve the in-laws coming along, for example. At first, I just went with it. Then I started planning them for just us, and she'd invite the inlaws. I said I wouldn't go with the in laws any more - now we vacation separately. 

When we occasionally go out, but other than the standard kids/work/chores topics, we have nothing in common.

I'm bored, lonely, and hoped for something more out of a marriage.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And you're looking for her to get it.

No wonder she's not responding.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Deejo said:


> What are the things that you want to accomplish for YOU?
> 
> Or, is it all tied to trying to still win your spouse or change her thinking? It's ok if that's the case. It's part of the arc. Certainly not something I'm going to beat you up over.
> 
> Knowing what you want, and being able to come terms with the steps to get you there will put you on the right path ... even if you don't know what the right path is.


Trying to put this as best I can, I have woken up to know and realize that I have needs. I understand that prior to recent days, my motivation to be happy was to experience my wife being happy. Very codependent.

Now that I understand I have needs, I feel very guilty. I am contemplating breaking up a marriage for what? Sex? One on one time? Many other folks are here because of severe abuse or infidelity - am I really allowed to feel this way over something trivial?

Yet at the same time, the thing standing in between my needs getting met is someone who is prioritizing things like facebook and work. My needs *are* more important than facebook. 

And then I think of my kids and start back at the guilty stage again.

The only accomplishment I can see right now would be breaking this circle. I am "stuck".


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for that.

I'm sorry if I seem like I am picking on you, but maybe others can help you with this part...

She knows the current situation is her fault, and you say it's 50\50.

I'm not an expert on this, but please do read some posts in Coping with Infedility. It might be wise to consider that you should take 100% of the blame for what you have done. Regardless of what she says... you yourself need to acknowledge that fooling around with another woman was 100% your choice, and 0% her fault. 

Being bored, lonely, lots of other reasons. All excuses. It was 100% your choice to go through with it. Please consider that. 

I think you are on the right path with trying to self examine what you want to do with your life. I have been through therapy in my life... helped countless others with specifically related issues, and I know that being honest with yourself is the first big step. Own it. 

Which is what a lot of the advice here has been. Very good advice. 
You are hiding as much of yourself as your wife is. Do you realise that? Take a chance. Be real. Lay your true soul out to her. It's yours to keep, forever, if she doesn't want it.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And you're looking for her to get it.
> 
> No wonder she's not responding.


I just don't understand why, if she's not really into me, why she would lie every day to my face repeatedly telling me how badly she wants us to work out.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You're still focusing on her.

What she says really doesn't matter.

What do YOU think?

Throw off your loneliness and frustration by pursuing your own interests. Then, take the pulse of the relationship.

I'd be willing to wager it will be greatly improved.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Acorn said:


> I just don't understand why, if she's not really into me, why she would lie every day to my face repeatedly telling me how badly she wants us to work out.


Simple. Because life with you is not uncomfortable enough for her to choose otherwise.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Very well said.

Again, everything you need in life to be happy is inside YOU. Not your wife. Get yourself happy, break the co-depdendence. 

I think you are confusing having your 'needs met' with being happy and content with yourself. There is a difference.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> You are hiding as much of yourself as your wife is. Do you realise that? Take a chance. Be real. Lay your true soul out to her. It's yours to keep, forever, if she doesn't want it.


I realized this a few weeks ago. I am still trying to get a sense of the extent of it. And I am still trying to find the ME in all this. Everyone here is so helpful because even though I'm getting a tiny bit better at the ME part, I'm nowhere near where I need to be.

The 5 year sexless marriage is 100% her fault. Me letting my hands roam a bit on that woman is 100% mine. I was implying that I'm willing to call it 50/50 and move on if we could just fix the underlying problem. And if we can't, we should separate and find our own way.

The irony is that when two people are used to being unavailable, and one is trying to wake up, the other is absolutely the worst possible partner to grow with unless she wakes up too.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks all for your thoughts. I am going to keep trying to break free. I'll post an update in a few weeks.

I really appreciate your candor helping me on my journey.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I can only imagine how much resentment you carry for those 5 years.

Concentrate on dropping that also. Forgive her. Even if she never says she's sorry, it won't do you any good to carry that around.

Notice I'm not saying "forget it". You'd be a fool to forget. But, resentment is incapacitating. We always want to "make up for something" - and we can't ever really get there.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Why does she have to grow with you? This is about you.
All by yourself. As scary as that sounds, this can only be done by you alone. Otherwise, it's not the real you that you will find. 

To be specific... really sit down and write what you like to do. By yourself. Writing? Woodworking? Fixing cars? Anything pop into your head? Take some online tests to find what you are good at. Do you like sports? Got a talent? 

Activities that you will do without your wife. 

Just because you enjoy them. 

I know this is hard, my husband has a difficult time with this too. If we can't do it together, he won't do it. But he's trying. And he's really liking it!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Acorn,

I take a slightly different view of this than some, but I'll admit that I have pleny of problems in my own marriage.

I see some similarities in your situation and mine. It is really hard to enjoy time together with my wife, because with me, she rarely smiles, and rarely makes small talk. I'm serious. She is very practical. Almost no interests. Almost every discussion is about our family, or our relationship. She is very sorry for being so critical in the first years of the marriage, but just can't seem to open up to me, so its tough to see her be so happy, joking and supportive with her biological family members and friends. She's bipolar, but depressive spectrum type, and very insecure. However, we had an incredible sexual relationship. Know how long that is enough before the emotional side begins to really be a problem when a great sex life is all you have in common? 22 years. That's what happened to us.

I was briefly homeless as a kid, so I just cannot get past the guilt of divorce. I love her so much anyway, but I've just never had a person in my life that is there for me when I'm low. For years, her resentment was so bad that she would be distant if I was sick. The advice provided by Deejo and other, I must admit, is helping me to get to theplace where I put aside the resentment, the guilt, and just focus on what I need in order to be happy. Don't let the idea of another relationship get in the way of that. Ask yourself what you want in life, and recognize that it takes time to get to the place where you can answer without being confused by guilt. In my case, I'm realizing that I want more emotional companionship, but it just isn't as big a deal as I once thought. I haven't ruled out divorce, but we're working on reconciliation.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Why does she have to grow with you? This is about you.
> All by yourself. As scary as that sounds, this can only be done by you alone. Otherwise, it's not the real you that you will find.
> 
> To be specific... really sit down and write what you like to do. By yourself. Writing? Woodworking? Fixing cars? Anything pop into your head? Take some online tests to find what you are good at. Do you like sports? Got a talent?
> ...


After writing a draft to reply to this post, I realize that even though the advice is solid, my marriage is past this point and I didn't realize it.

I do things on my own all the time. I have my hobbies which I do on my own. I have my interests with the kids that I do without my wife. I have a sports team that I play on, and I have some fun things on the computer that my wife does not enjoy with me. I go to the movies on my own and eat at restaurants on my own frequently and have no problem with that.

In fact, I cannot think of one activity that my wife and I have done together that we both truly enjoyed. Usually we alternate between doing something fun on one night out, and putting up with our partner's crazy interests the next time in turn. 

I have fun being by myself. I just miss having a partner who really wants to share life.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Halien said:


> Acorn,
> 
> I take a slightly different view of this than some, but I'll admit that I have pleny of problems in my own marriage.
> 
> ...


Halien, there are some similarities here. I watch my wife laugh and joke and become alive with her family and friends in a way that she is not alive with me, and though I try not to take it personally it is not a great feeling. She does not like to open up to me. 

I think what I want in life is similar to you. I have spent the majority of my life running away from feelings and rationalizing everything. (Probably evident from my posts.) I am ready for a partner to share the emotional journey of life with. I am ready for a partner to be completely emotionally honest with - even the bad stuff I carry around - and for her to be emotionally honest and available with me. I desperately want that to be my wife, but I have come to accept that she is not this way. 

I don't remember who said this, but someone (from TAM I think) said something to the effect of "I did not get married to have sex, but I did not get married to NOT have sex either." I feel that way about my marriage in a broader sense. I did not get married to fill all the holes in my life, but I did not get married to not have a chance to have a connection with my partner either.

I will keep trying and pushing forward. Thanks for your thoughts and I hope things work out for the best for you.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Acorn said:


> After writing a draft to reply to this post, I realize that even though the advice is solid, my marriage is past this point and I didn't realize it.
> 
> I have fun being by myself. I just miss having a partner who really wants to share life.


Smart man.

Much of the advice or insight you will receive here is unavoidable projection. In other words, some folks have been at the very place you are. Their input will be colored by the choices and decisions they made ... or didn't make.

Some will be focused on you trying to reconnect with your wife and save your marriage. Others ... myself included, do not see reconciliation as a viable option in your case. Therefore their (and my) input will skewed to helping you determine the best steps to take towards ending the relationship with dignity.

For instance, from my perspective, your behavior with the other woman has ZERO impact on the state of the issues in your marriage. Everything that was wrong with your marriage was well in place before you put your arms around that other woman. Your wife's ambivalence at your confession only makes that clearer.

People may take issue with your choice to behave as you did. And although I don't doubt that in that moment it gave you insight into exactly what your marriage has been lacking ... for years, and likely felt wonderful, the 'choice' does not help your circumstances. I don't condone cheating, and as you are well aware, only burdens you with more emotion and guilt.

End the relationship you are in before starting another. I'm pretty sure you have tweaked to this.


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## Morgiana (Oct 18, 2011)

I am going to piggyback on this thread, because what Acorn has said here is very close to what I feel I'm going through as well. My introspection of the past four months is taking me through the wringer. For the past decade I've been trying to do everything to make the spouse/D10/S7 happy; I am a 'people-pleaser'. Nothing seems to have gone right with my spouse though; complaints, disapproval about sex stuff (I'm kinkier than him), disapproval of my work commitments, putdowns that I have mental health issues, and his coming off a six year warcraft gaming addiction has left me emotionally drained.

I used to always think that I just needed to change more, be more flexible, and now I'm to the point where instead of breaking I stepped back. Now I can say that I have needs as well, but I no longer want him to meet them; I want out. I need more than what I'm getting, and I feel terrible for it. I still care for this man, but as the months drag on, the feelings just become more negative.

I wish you the best Acorn; know that you aren't alone!


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, I haven't seen the woman I mentioned since I wrote last and though we do talk a little here and there, I am not obsessing over her like I realize I had been earlier. She is not the ticket to all things good but she has shown me something I want in my marriage that I do not have.

For her part, my wife at home is trying in her own way. For instance, she completely voluntarily made an IC appointment for herself. (I was stunned - she has up until now believed I was the only one that needed to be in IC.) I can tell she is making an effort to be nicer around the house and such. It is just very hard to believe this will end any differently than the last times I got my hopes up. So I will wait and see. 

I have been spending a lot of time trying to figure out what I'd like out of life, and one of the biggest things I'd like to do is simplify it. I'd like to put my savings in some managed fund and let someone else deal with it. I'd like to scale down my obligations to a point where a holiday was a happy time and not viewed as one more obligation thrown in with everything else. I'd like to enjoy the little things and not feel like I was on call/on eggshells all the time. I'd like to be a father to my kids and let them see how I view life - and it's very difficult to do that with my wife around since she makes every effort to control situations and conversations. I'd like to be with someone who I felt attraction with and who thought highly of the occasional fun day of staying in and watching movies all day, or going out and hiking all day. These things do not seem likely with my wife - even if she had a major attitude shift, she likes to be busy all the time, so it is doubtful she'd view these things as positive. 

I also think that I'm getting gray hair, I have no fashion sense, I think jokes like "Oh no, my oreo broke, I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles" are funny. I am for all practical purposes a new man with zero game or dating skills and I wonder if really I have any shot of achieving these things this late in life with someone else. (I am happy with who I am as a person and think I'd make a better partner now than I ever have been previously, but gosh I don't know how to play the game! Up until a couple years ago, my only play was to be the "nice guy") I feel like there is a big hole in the middle of me - the part that had my wants/dreams that I never listened to - and now that I'm finally listening, I have no clue if I'll ever be able to reach it. It is a bit depressing. (I have been trying to tell myself that the hole I feel is the part of my that is detaching from the co-dependence and wondering if I had been filling that void with my wife's wants/dreams.)

Yet, for all the doom and gloom, my wife and I have not been fighting, and I have dealt with a lot of the feelings of guilt I have had the last few weeks. I don't fret over the sexless marriage any more, and when I have been feeling down, I've taken a trip or done so yardwork/excercise and that has helped. In that sense, life is better. It just seems very empty.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Can't get to the oasis before venturing across the desert.

You're doing the right things. The right things don't always feel good.

There is a difference between being alone, and feeling lonely. I was more lonely in my marriage than I am living alone.

Don't overthink it. Accept that the tough times are going to feel tough, but that they too, will pass.

Goals are important. No matter how small. Give yourself credit when you achieve them. 

One of my most simplest when I was living alone and feeling it ... was to make my bed every day when I got up. I can't possibly explain why, but by following that simple small ritual, I invariably got much more done and felt good about when I got home at night and my room didn't look like a college kid lived in it.

Square away the little things. Then eventually, the big things start looking more like little things.


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