# Not quite infidelity, and yet...



## JohnSebastian (Dec 24, 2013)

removed just in case


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## Singledude21 (Feb 21, 2013)

As a 23 year old, its definitely possible to be attracted and vibe with a 50 year old women. Just gotta have something between us that clicks. Can be something as simple as a short term goal.

I'd put those caution goggles on.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

He likes the ego boost he gives her, even if he may never follow through. But she is having an EA. Talking about things she really shouldn't to people who aren't her spouse. She's complaining about you to him, not good. This is quickly turned into more than just friends. You should get the book " Not Just Friends" and both read it.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Sorry, but this is infidelity. She would not behave this way in front of you. She does it behind your back.

It's dishonest, it's disrespectful, and it's cheating.


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## Singledude21 (Feb 21, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Sorry, but this is infidelity. She would not behave this way in front of you. She does it behind your back.
> 
> It's dishonest, it's disrespectful, and it's cheating.


Yea, if a middle aged women started talking to me about SATs, then all of a sudden talking about what kind of dildos she likes, that line has been crossed.

And wtf is she telling her problems to a kid for? What can he possibly do to help her issues? He can definitely hurt a marriage though if it continues.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Come on JS! It's at least an EA and I'm speaking from experience like most others. For a kid like him it's the idea that he could easily do you know what - it's that "short term goal" possibility.

She likes it to - makes her feel desired. That special friend that secret world. Hang the age difference.

As stated, it is completely inappropriate. Anything a partner does without your knowledge is cheating. 

You have the opportunity I didn't JS, you can jump in before it escalates. Shut it down JS.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JS, it IS an EA. Sorry, but I disagree with your therapist. You DO need to shut this down, now. Frankly, knowing that she met him on a game, I'd honestly stop the game time as well. Been there, done that... And I mean all of that... the EA with an ingame "friend", quitting the game, giving ultimatum. That was almost 3 years ago. We are still together and doing better than we were before. I don't blame the GAME for my actions, nor for hers. But it did make things easier to develop. Also, I want to point out that whether or not she's a "looker" makes no difference when it comes to an EA. It's all about a connection, and it doesn't have to be a physical one, either. Again, something i know from experience... I'm not a "looker" either... still happened. She's not clueless. She knows what she's doing. She told the guy that you think she's having an EA... again, been there, done that. She's not doing anything that any other cheater hasn't done...My guess? She knows your listening and she's trying to make it seem like you're crazy for suspecting... which you are NOT. Again, I say, shut it down.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Stop the whole thing now---before something does happen, even if it is only on the cellphone----she can end up sending out pics, things like that---he can do the same---then all of a sudden, passion creeps in, and maybe she looks for some foreign spice in your backyard

Right now you are boring to her, she is probably also in mid-life crises----is she going to IC, if not, and you have insurance, try and get her to go-----there is something wrong on both ends---50 yr old women/20 yr old guys---for the most part do not confide in each other---in fact there is little to no reason for a connection at all

If you need to get harsh and put your foot down---do so---she gets mad so what---do you think that at this stage of her life, she is running off to get a D., from you----I doubt that very much------do what you gotta do, but shut this liason down, and keep vigilant for her going underground on a burner phone.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> Shut it down. Hmmm. *I told my therapist and she said give her time to think because if the relationship can be saved, I shouldn't push her.* I see him this week. My brother also said the risk of this turning physical is minute as we don't have the funds for her to fly there and he is unemployed. Both my bro and the therapist said that this could all be the result of the depression. How would you go about shutting it down? I've already stated that this communication will be a barrier to us having a good marriage and that I only want a "good marriage", not what we have now. A vieled threat that this will come to a head soon when my therapist green lights me to start trying to discuss our relationship with her.


As long as your W is talking to this kid daily she isn't going to be thinking about saving your relationship at all. Sorry, but in this regard at least your therapist is an idiot. And to answer your question in a separate post; yes, your W is clueless that she is doing something damaging to your relationship. If you want to repair it her little boy buddy needs to leave the picture immediately and permanently.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

So the kid is 2,000 miles away? What about the next "friendship" she develops? One that may be, say, 20 miles down the road?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Contact the kids girlfriend and let her know that you overheard part of an inappropriate conversation between your wife and her boyfriend, she'll shut down this particular EA from her end. That will buy you some time to find a councilor who has a clue about infidelity.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Being in a marriage is a choice you and your wife make every day of you lives. Currently she is choosing to be mentally out of your marriage. A marriage cannot accomodate an outside relationship like this. You have to allow your wife to decide if she wants to be in your marriage. The terms of her admittance back to her marriage is that there be no outside parties. Where your therapist may be right is that if your wife is not going to magically decide to remain in her marriage unless you are giving her a compelling reason to come back to it. But if you are being a good enough husband that deserves a wife to be participating fully in your marriage, then you should by all means force her to decide what she wants in life.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> Should I just plan on giving an ultimatum, meaning it stops now and I get all her passwords? Or should I just tell her if it doesn't stop we will be getting a divorce and then see if she stops?* Only if you mean it.* My dilemma is I don't want it to continue, but if she is depressed and lacking in judgement it might take time for this to sink in, meaning a definite ultimatum may not work whereas giving her a couple of weeks to absorb it might. *No it won't.* What do you think?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> Oh, and she was complaining to the kid that I accused her of having an emotional affair with him. She was angry about it. So, is she clueless? Does she not know what she is doing?


Most people don't understand what an emotional affair is. After all, they're just talking.

And thinking about the guy 24/7. And changing their actions and attitudes. And changing their attitude about YOU. And daydreaming about life without you.

Do you know her IC?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> Should I just plan on giving an ultimatum, meaning it stops now and I get all her passwords? Or should I just tell her if it doesn't stop we will be getting a divorce and then see if she stops? My dilemma is I don't want it to continue, but if she is depressed and lacking in judgement it might take time for this to sink in, meaning a definite ultimatum may not work whereas giving her a couple of weeks to absorb it might. What do you think?


Don't give ultimatums. Tell her what YOU want in a marriage (a wife who doesn't talk every day to a boy). Then ask her if she's willing to be in THAT marriage. 

First, however, I really really urge you to take a good hard look at your marriage before you say that. Read a lot. Do the questionnaires. Look at your side of the road. Make sure the marriage you're offering her is in tip-top shape, one that SHE would want.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Pick up the book "Not Just Friends", and work through that. Get her to read it, if you can. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Also, find some good online articles about emotional affairs, find really good quotes to take from them, and read these snippets out loud to her. Things that explain why what she's doing is destructive, to her AND you.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: Not quite infidelity, and yet...*



JohnSebastian said:


> Right now it's like talking to a wall. I ask her what she wants, it's idk, she can't feel, she's shutdown, even to my kids and some of her local friends. I have improved, help her around the house, etc. talk to her, etc. But how to get her to "see it" or "respond to it", that is the problem I face.


John, 

This is war at this point. The only way to save your marriage is treat it like that. 

Your wife has checked out of the marriage. She has no respect for you. Doing nice things will have no effect on her and may be counterproductive. You need shock and awe. 

Blow up the affair. Tell the kid's girlfriend, your family and friends. Your kids are close to college age, so I'd tell them the situation as well. 

After that, consider filling and go 180.

You need to create clear boundaries. This will not go away on its own. If she decides she loves this kid, she may never come back to you. The only way this will work out, is if she comes back to you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This time of life can be extremely challenging for a woman & therefore for all of her loved ones.

I don't believe that this young guy is himself a threat, but the feelings of hopelessness, despair, and irrationality that attend this time of life for many women are a threat.

I would do several things:

- Insist that your W stop contact with both of these people & lay off the games.

- Have her seek professional treatment from 1) a medical doctor to treat/monitor her hormones, and 2) a therapist to deal with the mental/emotional reflexes of the physical changes she is experiencing.

It is not unusual for a woman in her 50s to tank her stable, longstanding relationships because of the turmoil she is experiencing. It seems irrational to others, but to her it makes tremendous sense.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> Right now it's like talking to a wall. I ask her what she wants, it's idk, she can't feel, she's shutdown, even to my kids and some of her local friends. I have improved, help her around the house, etc. talk to her, etc. But how to get her to "see it" or "respond to it", that is the problem I face.


If you do the LB and EN questionnaires, you can more specifically take actions that will mean something to her.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

How would she feel if you had an affair with a 20 year-old girl?

Ask her that one. Marriage only works when 2 are trying hard. She does not respect you. She does not care about you at all. She is selfish. 

When you have had enough, tell her that you want a divorce. Then she can go to the 20 year old and live with him.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Throw her computer in the trash and hand her a couples therapy book to read (Not Just Friends as suggested earlier is a good choice).

Tell her 

a. This kid is not a couples counselor, he's an interloper.
b. He has no idea how to repair a fractured relationship, particularly one that he has played a part in derailing
c. If she wants advice, she needs to go to the right place for it, and this guy is not a solution


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

You do understand that a 20 year old today, is NOT what a 20 year old was when you and I were 20? Just saying. David


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: Not quite infidelity, and yet...*



DavidWYoung said:


> You do understand that a 20 year old today, is NOT what a 20 year old was when you and I were 20? Just saying. David


What does that mean?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> Where are those?


Love Busters Questionnaire

Emotional Needs Questionnaire

The book those came from (His Needs Her Needs) is a must-read. 
His Needs, Her Needs

Whatever you do, do NOT get sucked up into their forum. It is toxic and downright harmful. Please trust me on this.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Are you absolutely certain she is talking to a 20 year old?


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## Singledude21 (Feb 21, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> Contact the kids girlfriend and let her know that you overheard part of an inappropriate conversation between your wife and her boyfriend, she'll shut down this particular EA from her end. That will buy you some time to find a councilor who has a clue about infidelity.


Damn the girlfriend, tell his mama. If she's a good parent, she'll put her foot up his ass good messing with a married woman.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good point! Find his parents and call them!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Doesn't matter who he's living with. If his family finds out, they may ream him out, or, heck, they may ridicule him enough that he stops contact with her.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.
You need a new therapist. Many give the absolute wrong advise.

If the roles were reversed do you think your wife would be accepting of such disrespect from you?

Your wife clearly has no respect for you or your feelings. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only person who can change this is you, John. As soon as you are ready to say "I can't stay in a relationship in which you give this much energy to another man OR woman," she will then be free to make a choice - keep the 'feel good' she is getting from flirting and acting 20, or keep her husband. She won't respect you until YOU do.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

In my late 20s I had a brief relationship with a woman a couple of years older than your wife. I thought she was the most exotic, gorgeous woman I'd ever met. So, never say never.

This needs to be shut down ASAP, IMO.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Unfortunately, that sounds all too familiar.  Lonely feeling, ain't it?


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> we havent had sex since june. she has said to me she's not interested in sex with me or anyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see. that sounds somewhat different than 'she is not attracted to you' - a more personal and hurtful statement I think.

is there anything about her, at this point in time, that is worthy of your love? of anyone's? (you should be able to answer easily in one or two sentences) 

you don't really believe that depression is anything like an excuse for the way she treats you, or for what she's doing, do you??


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> we havent had sex since june. she has said to me she's not interested in sex with me or anyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She might be sharing all this stuff with him because she needs someone to talk to, someone to flirt with,* but who she knows will never be able to "pester" her for sex.*

It might be more than a simple menopause. Could be worth getting a referral to a specialist.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> thats what my brother said hence my dilemma on when and how to approach it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Arrange with your doctor for a well man/woman session for the both of you?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> we havent had sex since june. she has said to me she's not interested in sex with me or anyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, she's proved THAT to be a lie, hasn't she?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I knew you'd say that.

If she's not interested in sex, why the hell is she spending SO MUCH TIME talking about it?

She just doesn't want sex with YOU.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

THE OTHER WOMAN COMPLAINED. You know she of the generation that eats, lives and BREATHES the new technology. That's hilarious to me, but a HUGE red flag that this is even more inappropriate.

I know it is scary and easier to believe it is hormones or depression. If it is really those two, why didn't it come up in their conversation, but it is ever prevalent in yours?

Heck, lets stop debating the "does she want sex" scenario. You had to "eavesdrop" on a conversation to find out what is going on in your OWN marriage. Yet, she still lies to your face about the issues. Think long and strong on what that says about her.

Stop it now, don't wait until it crosses "that" line.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> Depression can make you do stupid things. I do know she still has a thinking brain. She has a doc appt Thursday afternoon. I see my therapist Wed. I have shared this thread with him and we will discuss it at the appt, as well as what my brother said, and my personal feelings. Then we can determine my next steps. Personally, I want to go all caveman on her. It is by sheer force of will that I do not. My brother has talked me down yesterday and again today. I take it day by day. But the day of purposeful action is not far. I don't have energy to resist my inner-caveman for too long.


If going all caveman means telling her she needs to show love toward you, and observe marital boundaries or you will make the marriage history so fast You'll make her depressed head spin......then yes that sounds like a good Move. If your therapist or brother disagree then perhaps suggest one of them marry her.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

"Honey, I'm tired of being your Plan B. I want more out of life. Until you are ready to recommit to me as your husband, I can't do this. Let me know when you make up your mind. Until then, I'm sleeping in the spare bedroom and talking to my lawyer to see what my rights are."


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> I can see both points of view, kick her a new one, or wait some time to see if she clears her head. Both have their benefits and detractions. If she is "mental", then waiting might be the best thing as she may realize what she is doing and strive for a good marriage. *If she is really done with me and becoming a cheater*, then kicking her now is the better option. I have no problems doing that.
> 
> Oh, the ambiguity.


Ok, she is talking to this kid about your sex life and LYING to you about doing it. BECOMING a cheater? My friend, she HAS crossed over into those waters. She hasn't done it PHYSICALLY at this point... as far as you know. And, I am going to assume that she HASN'T crossed over... yet. But, she IS cheating already. Emotional infidelity IS cheating, and that is what this is. His gf was worried enough to voice her opinion, and got shut down. You ask point blank, after overhearing her talk, and she lies TO YOUR FACE. Seriously, this is not just depression, JS, nor is it just menopause, or any other mental issue you may get thrown at you. SHE IS CHEATING. Sadly, I think your therapist is going to say she isn't and that she "just needs a friend". Utter nonsense.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

My STBXW had her first EA in 2008. After that, she checked out of our marriage and had 4 PAs over the next 4 years, including an 18 month one who she fell in love with. 

I say this because now is the time for you to act. Once she truly checks out, you're screwed. Act now. Take control of the situation.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You say her hair is falling out, she has dental problems, and is depressed. You know that she is (peri?)menopausal.

I hope that she is being treated by a gynecologist for this. Hormonal depression is different from 'standard' depression and requires different treatment.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

John, you're too cautious defending your marriage and boundaries. Your brother's and IC's knowledge is not helping you. Depression and sexlessness is her detaching into the EA. The longer the contact, the deeper the attachment. 

Asking for her to respect your request and waiting for her to come around to it, is not attractive. It doesn't show you're caring. It only implies to her you have a low value of the relationship. Find out why you got here. Get yourself up to speed, and take action. 

Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends" Table of Contents

Married Man Sex Life

No More Mr Nice Guy book

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Get strong. Have a plan as what you will do depending on her reactions to the confrontation and boundaries setting. Good luck...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> I can see both points of view, kick her a new one, or wait some time to see if she clears her head. Both have their benefits and detractions. If she is "mental", then waiting might be the best thing as she may realize what she is doing and strive for a good marriage. If she is really done with me and becoming a cheater, then kicking her now is the better option. I have no problems doing that.
> 
> Oh, the ambiguity.


Or, if you're waiting, you could do it smarter and spend this waiting time learning more about her and what she REALLY wants out of life and ensuring that you are the only person giving it to her. Do you know her top ENs? If you're 'stepping up' around the house and acts of service and domestic support are not in her top 5 ENs, you are not only spinning your wheels, you are making yourself look weak. And NO woman wants - or desires - a weak man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> My shrink doesn't know most of what we've talked about here, unless he's just read it, but I will definitely talk to him about it. He said give her time based on what he knew.


Then you need to email him this thread. Filled with dozens of people WHO DO KNOW more about affairs than he does. Which, frankly, is pretty common. ICs don't waste their time educating themselves on infidelity to the degree that a forum of BTDTs have. Help him help you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> I now think that date has to move up.


Good.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I can see both points of view, kick her a new one, or wait some time to see *if* she clears her head. Both have their benefits and detractions. If she is "mental", then waiting might be the best thing as she may realize what she is doing and strive for a good marriage. If she is really done with me and becoming a cheater, then kicking her now is the better option. I have no problems doing that.
> 
> Oh, the ambiguity.


John, that's a great big "if." And it will never happen by itself. You take some kind of action that will cause her consequences if she keeps up with this yukky liaison.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, she is NOT going to stop taking her drug just because. She's addicted now and she'll need to see a consequence coming, to be able to see that she needs to give it up.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

John, you asking a third party for a green light to protect your marriage doesn't show much confidence in yourself. She sees that. Would you think that is attractive in a husband?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Find a copy of the 2 part pdf book "Women's Infidelity". It is fairly short, so speed read it in the next day or 2.

Your weakness is not seen by your wife as being thoughtful or loving of her. It is seen as repulsive and weak. She wonders how you can be so stupid, and she simultaneously believes you are so stupid as to let her continue. She believes you deserve for her to have this affair because you are not standing up to her.

What she needs you to do is be a harda$$ about it. She'll fight you, she'll call you names, and she'll say you're being all kinds of controlling. In the end though she will respect you.

After reading many situations like yours either in the early phases, or which have progressed to the next steps, I believe the best approach is being as tough as possible. That means setting a boundary once by telling her you cannot continue in a marriage if your wife takes her affections elsewhere. And then if she crosses the boundary you file for divorce.

It is the total opposite of what you are doing, isn't it?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> Well, yes. She is not handling the aging thing well, she is going to the GP this week, and will ask for a recommendation to IC also.


My point is that her crazy, age-inappropriate behavior could be directly linked to hormone problems & could be corrected with the right treatment. It's not just depression that occurs. Her behavioral changes in general could directly follow from this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A couple days won't matter. But DO spend some time reading things like the book above and NMMNG or MMSLP. You need more understanding of your dilemma before that deadline.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

It's all relative, John. As long as you're getting up to speed and understanding the subject. Rather then letting the fear of doing the right thing, keep you in limbo. Then you'll be prepared to make a more informed decision as to the actions you should take and the behaviors you should change. There is nothing wrong about a spouse having a make or break boundary, like this in a marriage. Even with a depressed spouse. 

Here are the links, to the series Thor spoke about. 

http://ironflex.com.ua/phorum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=29326

http://http://www.womensinfidelity.com/b04hb00ks/womens_infidelity_II_complete.pdf


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> wait some time to see if she clears her head.


Please explain the benefits of waiting to the people who waited and their spouses cheated with the "fat, ugly, too old, too young, nothing in common, too far away, online gamer" just a friend.

The only person saying wait and see is you. Even the people saying it may be depression and hormonal are telling you to take action NOW. You've already been waiting and letting her lie to your face. If it really is that innocent, she'd have no reason to lie. No, I am not saying she is physically cheating, but all it takes is a bad day or a bad bout of depression then you are here playing the 20/20 hindsight game. Be proactive not mean.

I swear there is a thread where the wife left to go live with the online no job having felon who lived in his mom's basement.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I remember one lady who took the only car that she shared with her husband and their 2 kids, and drove across the ENTIRE COUNTRY to see her online gaming lover for the first time, leaving her husband home with 2 young kids and no way to get them around.

Oh, and the other woman who flew to AUSTRALIA to meet her online lover and try him out for a month, leaving her kids behind.

Never underestimate what a cheating spouse can do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remember that every conversation she has with him connects more brain 'feel good' to him and less to you. 

Have you tried sending your transcripts to the OM's girlfriend?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I hear what you are saying, but it's almost the 10th. And I committed to it in December. Ok, water under the bridge. Yes, it might have been a mistake, but I am "inexperienced" in these matters. If you guys told me that a month ago, maybe I could have done something. Now, I will wait until I talk to him tomorrow. I will play hardball, but not quite yet.


Experience has nothing to do with it. Being cheated on and "growing a pair" after the fact, now that's something different


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

John, you're right, waiting a day won't kill you. Maybe even develope a strategy and talk it out with your counselor. 

What will kill your marriage is if you lose resolve and deviate from the course of action everyone is advocating. 

If you remember nothing else, just remember this: YOU CANNOT NICE YOUR WIFE OUT OF AN AFFAIR.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> That's it. To me, it seems odd a 20 y.o. guy and 50 y.o. woman constantly talk and text like this. I also don't think a 20 y.o. college kid would become romantically involved with a 50 y.o. woman who is definitely not a "looker". Especially if he has a young girlfriend.


Oh I wouldn't bet on it. I think a lot of younger guys see an older woman, especially one that isn't such a looker, to think she'd be damned lucky if a guy wants to have sex with her and the younger man sees it as easy sex. 

Especially to a woman to says she isn't attracted to her husband. If I had a wife that said that to me, the next thing out of my mouth would be, "well then lets get a divorce". 

In any case, if a 20yo guy wasn't interested in a 50yo woman, he wouldn't waste most of his time texting and conversing with her. There is an end game here, mark my words.



> "if I came there to talk to you, I don't know what I'd do".


This statement above is testing the waters, seeing if he'd be willing to meet. And the "I don't know what I'd do" part is her saying she might not be able to keep from getting in his pants.

Nip this in the bud. If she doesn't want to, tell her to go live with the kid. But then again, why should you even have to nip this? Even if she stops, you won't trust her again, especially after saying she isn't attracted to you. 

Why would you want to stay with such a woman?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Yes, you have to stand for a steadfast boundary against your spouse allowing interlopers to receive the emotions that belong to her husband.

No, you don't make life changing decisions when your emotions are in overdrive. That has to be part of the boundary, but it should be done when you are controlled.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> I completely agree. Since this news is one month old for me, I am just now coming out of my devastated emotional state. Every day I become more sure of my wants and needs so in a way, this situation is actually a good thing.* I realize I'm not happy either,* even before the news. If I can't have that Ozzie and Harriet or Leave It To Beaver marriage, I am done. I will kill it myself.


So that makes two of you who are not happy. Thus the state of dysfunction in the marriage. As for Ozzie and Harriet, that is to be determined. You can find out how both of you can have that marriage in the book Turnera suggested. (His Needs, Her Needs) But you won't be able to achieve that as long as there are three people in your marriage. 

Good luck tomorrow.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

It does suck. It will be hard. You are right, there will need to be some serious counseling to find out how it got to this and to get out of it too. But be sure to find the right one. A no nonsense, infidelity experienced one. Not some kumbaya feel good type. Just imagine how she's going to feel when she see this kid is only getting $hits and giggles out of her. Pitiful. Whether you confront him or not for NC, make sure when it's done to block him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> No, I won't deviate. Let me make an example, I move forward with a plan, in say, two months, if there is no improvement, then it's over. You would think that with two months of talking or therapy or whatever, there would be positive changes. If not, that's a sign in itself. I don't know what my plan will be yet, but it will include any and all of what people here have said.
> 
> Point being, another example, if by X-month, let's say May, I will be posting that we're doing much better, or we're getting divorced.


I don't see ANYTHING in there about fighting the affair. That's not a plan.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

I can definitely see staying with a wife who is older and has lost her sex drive if the marriage is satisfying in every other way. That doesn't seem to be the case here. She apparently has lost any sexual feelings for you and yet she's captivated with thoughts of this young "stud." I don't usually advocate divorce, but really, why are you staying with her. Loyalty? For old time's sake? Guilt of some kind? I think maybe it's time for you to move on and leave her with her fantasies.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I cannot and will not enjoin a fight until I talk to my counselor.


For me, your response will let me know the partial quality of your counselor. Yes, some of your responses have given me a red flag. I hope I am wrong, but if not you'll need a new one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But he WANTS a therapist who'll tell him not to stand up to the affair, to just let it works it way out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

According to the plan you espoused, you will WAIT.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TAM has a good plan. Maybe your IC has a good plan.

What is a horrible plan is being Nice or being passive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can't NICE - or wait - a wayward wife away from her OM drug.


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> Ok, there has been some EA going on. I know that. I cannot and will not enjoin a fight until I talk to my counselor. I hear what you all are saying, and I will have to address this, but-not-just-yet.


Off topic, but I find you telling other posters here to back off is admirable. It is your life, YOUR decision after all. What I find interesting, however, at the same time you show inability to make this important decision (what to do to save your marriage, and when) without your counsellor's approval (???)

No offense to any counsellors out there, but I thought it's not counsellor's job to make the decision for you? I am a proponent of counselling to sort things out. I see them as an impartial ear, who listens to me talk and rant when friends and family are either tired of it already or busy with their own lives (and I don't want to talk to myself either. That'd be just weird). My amazing counsellor told me that usually you already know what to do, or it will occur to you when you talk it out. 

So let me ask you, what do YOU think you should do about your marriage?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> You will not goad me into taking action you "think" is needed "right this effin minute". I SAID I will take care of business, on my schedule.


You're right. We cannot make you take action. Neither can your counselor. Only you can make that decision. Unfortunantely, we have seen this passive "action" many, many times here. And it ended the same way...either they have a completely sexless marriage, while working out a plan of action for a "new marriage", or it moves to PA and the BS is left shaking his/her head incredulously, asking "where did I go wrong?"...And, I'll be honest. When you say you have a plan, but won't say anything about what you are looking at doing, except for the occasional "in my time" or "only I know" type comments, it reminds some of us of a plan that one other person had... and nothing has improved. But, hey, knock yourself out. Wait it out if that's what you want. I just hope your therapist doesn't suggest waiting,passively, for her to develop further feelings for this kid...


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I promised to wait until this week because I was emotiionally distraught at the time. That's all. The benefit is my head is clearing.


Fair enough. Stay strong, and never let your spouse invalidate how you feel. Most cheaters will minimise, trickle-truth, and gaslight. It's nothing personal or specific about you, it's just their MO. 

The guideline I follow is this: if you feel uncomfortable about your spouse's friendship with someone they are sexually attracted to, their "friendship" is inappropriate at the very least, whether one-sided or not. And if their spouse ask them to stop and they won't, it clearly shows where their priority is. In your case, even the 20-something girlfriend complained about it. That speaks volume. If your wife can't see it, she just doesn't want to. What is appropriate about a friendship between a woman in her 50s with a 20-something stranger anyway? He is not her nephew or family friend. Especially when their conversation is sexual in nature. That's just creepy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> I discussed with her tonight my thoughts on it because some things came up. Meaning I talked, she listened. Basically, I explained that the online friends, esp. one person, and esp. talking and texting all the time is a barrier to a close, loving marriage. I told why - having needs met outside of marriage, loss of connection to primary relationship, OM becoming the primary if she refuses to stop, etc. all the usual stuff.
> 
> I told her I now think it's a good thing this came out in the open because we both get to re-evaluate what we want in a marriage and take action to get it (of course I didn't tell her I might need a different wife). I told her I thought back to our relationship over the last few years and in hindsight it was not good.
> 
> ...


That was a great thing to do. Good job.

Now, the NEXT step, now that you've told her that continuing to contact OM is unacceptable, is to see if she does. And, if she does, you fight the affair anyway, even if you don't want her back. 

There are many reasons for this, we can explain them. But please believe that we HAVE seen your identical case carried out hundreds of times, and the result is the same every single time - either (1) the spouse exposes the affair to the WS's family and close friends to get them to help urge the WS to quit going down this path, and the couple now has a chance to rebuild or at LEAST end the marriage with dignity, or (2) the BS is afraid to expose (for whatever justifications they have, but it's really fear) and waits for the WS to decide to quit the OM drug, which isn't going to work, and they end up divorced anyway.

I hope you are spending this waiting time reading other threads in CWI; seeing it all play out will help you in the clarity you're seeking.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> Yup. The longer I go on, the more it disgusts me. And, an interesting tidbit, when our marriage problem first came out, all I could see was that young girl I married and was distraught. But now, I'm beginning to see her without the rose-colored glasses in all her 50 y.o. lost-glory. I'm losing my attraction toward her and sometimes just really don't like the way she looks, etc. Don't know what that means. Maybe it means I'm checking out. Maybe just mental self-preservation.


Did you tell her that?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> But now, I'm beginning to see her without the rose-colored glasses in all her 50 y.o. lost-glory. I'm losing my attraction toward her and sometimes just really don't like the way she looks, etc. Don't know what that means. Maybe it means I'm checking out. Maybe just mental self-preservation.


This is another red flag towards your counselor's "wait and see" attitude. See people keep validating your "I'll wait until Wednesday" speak, which tells me they may have missed the subtle inferences in many of your posts.
You've already stated you discovered this, at the very least, over a month ago. The post where you say it took you nearly a month to get over what you heard and found. Then your IC says wait longer. So, now we are talking nearly 40+ days. The above just reinforces what we rarely talk about on TAM. The destruction waiting causes the betrayed. I mean, go look at your OP. You have basically started to put down your wife to anonymous strangers. Some would say this is good, but I don't think so if you are trying to save the marriage. Wait and see what happens is almost always bad in this instance.


Good luck, I hope things work out the way you planned.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr. Harley puts a timeline on watching a spouse cheat and trying to save the marriage. I think it's something like 2 months for men with a WW and 6 months for women with a WH. Maybe someone else remembers and can fix my numbers. Anyway, he says that if you try to hold on to the cheating spouse longer than that, you will stop loving them, as the pain they cause you erodes the love. Just as you're experiencing. That's why waiting is dangerous.

fwiw, I GET that you promised to wait til this week, we're not arguing with you on that. We're talking about, if your counselor says to wait it out, HE'S WRONG.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> Yup. The longer I go on, the more it disgusts me. And, an interesting tidbit, when our marriage problem first came out, all I could see was that young girl I married and was distraught. But now, *I'm beginning to see her without the rose-colored glasses in all her 50 y.o. lost-glory.* I'm losing my attraction toward her and sometimes just really don't like the way she looks, etc. Don't know what that means. Maybe it means I'm checking out. Maybe just mental self-preservation.


You're beginning to take her off that pedestal, where you always let her good points hide the undesirable ones. You're starting to see those flaws now. Like you, she's only human. You should have never put her there to begin with, that's a formula for failure. Now your resentment is setting in, for something you let pass for sometime. Behaviors you allowed. You' can see what you've done in NMMNG.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good point. Have you read NMMNG yet?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I'm not sure she actually said that part, I have a pro cleaning it up for me. I could be feeding my own paranoia into it. I don't know if I want to stay with her. I haven't decided. Right now it's "I'll stay with her if-if-if-if and if". That's where I'm at.


Either way, all this cutesy cutesy baloney going on between the two of them is not appropriate and a big red flag.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> I discussed with her tonight my thoughts on it because some things came up. Meaning I talked, she listened. Basically, I explained that the online friends, esp. one person, and esp. talking and texting all the time is a barrier to a close, loving marriage. I told why - having needs met outside of marriage, loss of connection to primary relationship, OM becoming the primary if she refuses to stop, etc. all the usual stuff.
> 
> I told her I now think it's a good thing this came out in the open because we both get to re-evaluate what we want in a marriage and take action to get it (of course I didn't tell her I might need a different wife). I told her I thought back to our relationship over the last few years and in hindsight it was not good.
> 
> ...


I think that was a good conversation to have. I see nothing wrong with it.

But I have a question. What about the part where she told you she wasn't attracted to you anymore? How are you going to deal with that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I assume it won't, unless you become more take charge. Have you read NMMNG or MMSLP?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

John, 

You get behind the wheel now and steer this relationship where you want. Unfortunately for your circumstances, you've stumbled upon a good amount of knowledge that 90% people don't ever contemplate they'll need. Use it to set the course to a better future. If your mate wishes to come along with you and your family then all the better. If not, set sail for clear waters and better times.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: Not quite infidelity, and yet...*



JohnSebastian said:


> Don't really know. I assume if we rebuild it will return.


I would expect the opposite. When a woman loses attraction for men it rarely returns. Female attraction works dramatically different than male attraction. 

From the post above it sounds like you're starting to check out from your marriage. While you still care, you should blow everything in this affair up. At least try to do what's best for your marriage and family before you throw in the towel.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

JohnSebastian said:


> Don't really know. I assume if we rebuild it will return.


Well that might happen if the loss of attraction was because of something other than physical appearance. Did she ever say why she wasn't? Let yourself go? Or maybe she just doesn't find men her own age attractive, hence her giddiness over some boy.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: Not quite infidelity, and yet...*



JohnSebastian said:


> I sent this info and the transcript to my therapist. I think I need to tell her this and will see what he says, but this has to be said, "You are in an EA with guy, you will need to cut off all communication with him or there will be no way to fix our marriage as I am beginning to check out, if you do not cut communication with him, I suspect in a couple of weeks we'll be talking about splitting up assets".


My problem with what you're saying is people in the throes of affair are like crackheads, give them some space and they'll forget about everything that's important in order to go get some crack. You need to get family and friends to encourage her. You need to talk to the OMW. You need to bring this to the light of day. 

Relying on her to end it by appealing to her logic WILL fail.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JohnSebastian said:


> I'm in excellent health, not bad looking, not fat, etc. It can't be physical. I think more along the lines of unmet needs is killing her attraction.


More likely, it is Love Busters. That's what usually happens with women.

Have you asked her to fill out the LB questionnaire?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

radrobe said:


> I would expect the opposite. When a woman loses attraction for men it rarely returns.


Unless he changes whatever it is about him that caused the loss of attraction.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

radrobe said:


> I would expect the opposite. When a woman loses attraction for men it rarely returns. Female attraction works dramatically different than male attraction.
> 
> From the post above it sounds like you're starting to check out from your marriage. While you still care, you should blow everything in this affair up. At least try to do what's best for your marriage and family before you throw in the towel.


OP:

blow up the affair? sure, if you can manage it. But I think you have every right at this point to blow up your marriage. the EA, the "I'm not attracted to you..." etc. there's no reason to tolerate that kind of stuff any longer if the future without her looks good to you. Depression is not psychosis. she's not seeing things or hearing voices is she? she's probably about as rational as the average person. so declare her the responsible party for everything she does, and end it. 

she's no longer wife material.......sounds like she's lost that capacity. nonetheless after divorce you can still take interest in her well being if you want to. did you say you still have kids at home? ages?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

radrobe said:


> My problem with what you're saying is people in the throes of affair are like crackheads, give them some space and they'll forget about everything that's important in order to go get some crack. You need to get family and friends to encourage her. You need to talk to the OMW. You need to bring this to the light of day.
> 
> Relying on her to end it by appealing to her logic WILL fail.


This is why exposure is so necessary. And, no, we're not talking nuclear exposure. Just contacting people whose respect she craves, and asking them to help you save the marriage. That you want her to eliminate the OM from her life, and then you see if the marriage is fixable. If it isn't, you will gladly walk away. But until the OM is out of the picture, you and your wife have no chance of making it. And she will make a fool of herself trying to get a 20 year old to want her, and will spend the rest of her life jumping from one loser to another. If you can explain it to them like this, they may be willing to help you. If nothing else, her KNOWING that they now know may be enough to get her to give up the idea.

But if you keep this a secret, she will be very unlikely to work through this stuff.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes, do a search on D-daY #2. Watch the common report in almost all of them. It is mostly "My spouse agreed to no contact and I found...." That's why you almost see everyone saying expose NOW. Yes, even to the girlfriend. In your head she is okay with it because it is text. I bet she flips out if she finds out there was sex talk.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, forgot to include HIS side. If he's 20, find a way to track down his parents. He needs a good case of whoop-ass from his mom and dad.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

JohnSebastian said:


> I'm in excellent health, not bad looking, not fat, etc. It can't be physical. I think more along the lines of unmet needs is killing her attraction.


You get hit on often?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

radrobe said:


> My problem with what you're saying is *people in the throes of affair are like crackheads,* give them some space and they'll forget about everything that's important in order to go get some crack. You need to get family and friends to encourage her. You need to talk to the OMW. You need to bring this to the light of day.
> 
> Relying on her to end it by appealing to her logic WILL fail.


She's depressed and this attention is how she gets her dopamine elevated. Once it goes physical, with this guy or some substitute, she'll get even more dopamine, plus serotonin, adrenaline, testosterone, etc. for a crack-like rush every time, and in her mental replays.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> She's depressed and this attention is how she gets her dopamine elevated. Once it goes physical, with this guy or some substitute, she'll get even more dopamine, plus serotonin, adrenaline, testosterone, etc. for a crack-like rush every time, and in her mental replays.


John you have to up your sex rank and start doing stuff on your own.
Go out a few nights a week and don't tell her what you are doing.
Mach knows his sh!t.
Time to change the game plan.


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## JohnSebastian (Dec 24, 2013)

Hi everbody, it's not fair for me to bail on you without saying anything. Sorry. You know how emotions get the best of you. I'm going to go dark on this so the spouse can't happen upon any conversations. I will be moving forward with this situation. I would like to come back and tell you what happens later. Thanks for everybody's help! I know you cared.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Don't know if you'll see this, but good luck, John. :thumbup:


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Good luck!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

See you on the other side, John. Best of luck.


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