# Attracted to another woman while being married



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Hi all,

This post is going to look terrible but I can't help my feeling and have no where else to turn other than the web. Hoping others have been in this position before.

I am a married male with 2 young children. My wife and I have been together for about 10 years (married for 5). Obviously things had been well enough over the past that we had two children together. I've always been more of an introvert and quiet and she was my first. I'm not sure what has went wrong but we've had lots of issues over the past couple of years. I've had bouts of depression, we've been stressed with the kids, etc. We discussed divorce last summer but have been working on things in counselling. However - I just don't feel our marriage is in the same place.

I guess that brings me to the purpose of my post. In the past, I have certainly noticed other good looking women (whether at work, getting a coffee, other parents of children, etc). I have never once however gone after any of them, flirted, etc. If anything I would almost convince myself even if it was nothing that they might think I am a good guy and it would almost give me an ego boost. 

That all changes in the past couple of months and i've been attracted to someone who works at the child care center where my kids frequent. As I said i've noticed attractive women before but this one is completely different. The feelings are very strong and I am 99% sure she is interested in me as well just on our brief conversations, always seeing her, the smiling, the eye contact, etc. 

The worst part of all of this is the guilt for having these feelings. My wife and I both know that we aren't in a good spot but the kids are big factor in all of this. I know most people would say that "the grass is not always greener on the other side", but my concern is this time it is and I am giving up my happiness by not doing anything about it.

Again I know this sounds *terrible*, I am ashamed believe me. But I have never felt this way in that I think of her all the time, am losing my other interests, not in a great mood, etc.

I mentioned earlier how I think she is interested in me. If she wasn't this would be easier. We'd still have our marriage problems but at least I can go back to a non-depressive state. However I have no idea how to find this out. The right thing to do is to take a break from my wife and figure things out. But that means giving up the kiddos and possibly ruining the marriage for good. If i've read this other woman wrong then i've got nothing.

Anyway - sorry for the long winded first post. Hoping someone has a little advice.

Thank you.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Nothing unusual or wrong about being *attracted* to other women. Lots wrong about in any way acting on that attraction. 

A stranger can be very attractive because you know very little about them, and fill in the blanks with your fantasy of what you wish they would be. If you left your marriage and got into a relationship with this out person, you would almost certainly fine out that the unknown bits did not in fact match your hopes / imaginings. In the end it is very unlikely you would be happy.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Ya good point. I guess deep down I know that I don't know this person very well, and they may have their own faults but I just have that inkling or feeling that we would do well together. I know she is a single mom but I just have a tough time as I think we'd be compatible. It's almost like "what if" if that makes any sense. I just don't understand how in this case I feel so down and wishful whereas in other attractions i've felt more of an ego boost.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Imagine the shoe is on the other foot, and it is your wife finding other men attractive. One in particular that she can't stop thinking about.

How does that make you feel? The answer to that will give you some clues as to how best to proceed. IMHO.


----------



## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Take your thoughts and time being spent on thinking of this woman and transfer them into making your marriage better. 

Have you tried marriage counseling with your wife?


----------



## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

You say you're working on your marriage through counseling,but from the way you're feeling it doesn't appear to be of much benefit. Is the effort there? If not,is it because of your infatuation? I guess you have to ask yourself just what type of man you want to be and whether or not you're doing everything you can to be a man of your word. Hope things work out for you,your wife and kids.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

wild jade said:


> Imagine the shoe is on the other foot, and it is your wife finding other men attractive. One in particular that she can't stop thinking about.
> 
> How does that make you feel? The answer to that will give you some clues as to how best to proceed. IMHO.


Ya I didn't mention that earlier. I know in our discussions i've tried to be honest with my attraction feelings (and how we both aren't as attracted to each other as we used to be). I even went so much as to ask her if she'd be happier with someone else. Although she wouldn't say she has attraction for other men, i'm sure she notices or is happy around certain men as well (I think all people are like this). 

As bad as it sounds if she did have an interest in someone else it would be difficult but I don't think as catastrophic as it would have been 7-8 years ago. And I promise this isn't me just trying to validate myself as I am not thrilled with how i've been feeling. I did quite a bit of thinking about this question.

Thanks!


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Celes said:


> Take your thoughts and time being spent on thinking of this woman and transfer them into making your marriage better.
> 
> Have you tried marriage counseling with your wife?


Yup you bet. We've done counselling, we've expressed our feelings, etc. I feel like we just don't have the passion or the attraction we used to and I think we are both in a similar spot. When I was first with her it was exciting, I couldn't believe this girl wanted to date me, live with me, have children with me, etc. For someone who didn't have a huge amount of experience with women it felt like this was it for me and that i'd never find anyone ever again.

Over the years my self-worth has gotten better. I excel at my job, I do well with kids, etc. There have been things we disagree with in terms of parenting, lifestyle (I feel she is a bit unmotivated compared to me). Although this woman that came into my life is newer, i've been feeling a little unsure about our marriage for a little while. 

Perhaps I need individual counselling instead?


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

TBT said:


> You say you're working on your marriage through counseling,but from the way you're feeling it doesn't appear to be of much benefit. Is the effort there? If not,is it because of your infatuation? I guess you have to ask yourself just what type of man you want to be and whether or not you're doing everything you can to be a man of your word. Hope things work out for you,your wife and kids.


I think it is or has been. We had discussed divorce last summer before going to counselling. We ended up getting out more and keeping the situation in check. But i'm not sure it fixed things. 

The infatuation I have been feeling happened well after the counselling and our marital troubles. I just really don't know how to go about things. I know this sounds incredibly selfish but it's hard to give up everything including the kids if there is nothing better out there. But how is one to know if there is something better for you to make you happier?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jasontrents said:


> Yup you bet. We've done counselling, we've expressed our feelings, etc. I feel like we just don't have the passion or the attraction we used to and I think we are both in a similar spot. When I was first with her it was exciting, I couldn't believe this girl wanted to date me, live with me, have children with me, etc. For someone who didn't have a huge amount of experience with women it felt like this was it for me and that i'd never find anyone ever again.
> 
> Over the years my self-worth has gotten better. I excel at my job, I do well with kids, etc. There have been things we disagree with in terms of parenting, lifestyle (I feel she is a bit unmotivated compared to me). Although this woman that came into my life is newer, i've been feeling a little unsure about our marriage for a little while.
> 
> Perhaps I need individual counselling instead?


*If you're going to save your family, then you absolutely need IC in the worst possible way! 

If it's other women that you're sniffing after, then do the honorable thing and divorce your W and family first!*


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
My advice would be to forget this fantasy. Fantasy is exactly what this is. You are ready to forgo your wife, children and future on an "inkling". Did you have an "inkling" 10 years ago that you and your now wife would "make it" together? Now, after the reality of being with someone for 10 years and two children later, you have another "inkling"? Forget your "inklings" and concentrate on what you have in reality.

Focus on your marriage, which by the way you took an oath to protect, "inklings" notwithstanding and understand that your happiness cannot be found in this other woman but rather inside yourself. Take the focus off of jasontrents and put it on your family and marriage. "If I misread her feelings then I'd have nothing" is rather self absorbed and shows little regard for the most important people in your life.

Also, do you not think that every person who thought that the "grass is isn't necessarily greener on the other side" also thought "but maybe this time it is"? It always is until you get there and trample it underfoot. And as you realize the exorbitant amount of fertilizer (manure) your walking in. Then suddenly the greener grass looks trodden down and reeks of excrement and magically you see even greener grass over there. Consider that the grass you have may just need some care and attention to become the greenest you have ever seen.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jasontrents said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This post is going to look terrible but I can't help my feeling and have no where else to turn other than the web. Hoping others have been in this position before.
> 
> ...


Unless you want to blow your family to pieces, you do not act on these desires, or feelings. *Ever.*

How to I know? Been there, done that, didn't like the t-shirt. Because "I am a POS" on a t-shirt was not where I wanted to be at, or who I wanted to be. 

But it was.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> My advice would be to forget this fantasy. Fantasy is exactly what this is. You are ready to forgo your wife, children and future on an "inkling". Did you have an "inkling" 10 years ago that you and your now wife would "make it" together? Now, after the reality of being with someone for 10 years and two children later, you have another "inkling"? Forget your "inklings" and concentrate on what you have in reality.
> 
> Focus on your marriage, which by the way you took an oath to protect, "inklings" notwithstanding and understand that your happiness cannot be found in this other woman but rather inside yourself. Take the focus off of jasontrents and put it on your family and marriage. "If I misread her feelings then I'd have nothing" is rather self absorbed and shows little regard for the most important people in your life.
> ...


Thanks this all makes so much sense. To answer the "inkling" question...as I eluded to in another reply I think the biggest thing for myself was back then was the thought process if this didn't work out I would be alone forever. I had always been an introvert with little amount of friends (complete opposite of an alpha-male lol). I wonder sometimes if I had dates a lot back when I was younger if I would have had a better idea of what I wanted in a relationship. Not sure if that makes sense...


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jasontrents, three is a crowd. 
You may have issues to workout with your marriage but a third person should not be involved when you're figuring that out. You said if she's not interested then "you've got nothing". Man that's a big red flag that you're considering leaving your wife but only if you have a comfortable landing spot; don't be that person. Step #1 one is to get this back to you and your wife and if it doesn't work out then move on. Not to the another person you already have lined up though.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Read up on limerence. 

Actually, you really have nothing firm that she has any interest in you. 

You are probably reading more into her interactions than are reality. 

BTDT


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

jasontrents said:


> When I was first with her it was exciting, I couldn't believe this girl wanted to date me, live with me, have children with me, etc.


Of course it was, because it was new! Can't you see that it's the same with this woman? Very unfair to compare your marriage to your infatuation for this new woman...apples and oranges. A long marriage can't possibly compete with a shiny new woman, who you only ever see at her best. 



jasontrents said:


> I think it is or has been. We had discussed divorce last summer before going to counselling. We ended up getting out more and keeping the situation in check. *But i'm not sure it fixed things.*
> 
> The *infatuation *I have been feeling happened well after the counselling and our marital troubles...


Then try harder! Marriage is not something to be thrown away on an "inkling". You took vows with your wife, to love, honour and protect her FORSAKING ALL OTHERS. 

Look at your wedding photos, make it a project with your wife. Buy a photo album and tell the story of your relationship. Go right back to when you were dating each other, put the photos in the album, share the memories of those days...dating, falling in love, engagement, the wedding, first baby, second baby...relive all those wonderful times.

You owe it to your wife and children to do everything humanly possible to keep the family intact. EVERYTHING.

The first thing you need to do is stop taking the children to daycare.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

jasontrents said:


> That all changes in the past couple of months and i've been attracted to someone who works at the child care center where my kids frequent. As I said i've noticed attractive women before but this one is completely different. The feelings are very strong and I am 99% sure she is interested in me as well just on our brief conversations, always seeing her, the smiling, the eye contact, etc.


First of all, this is normal behaviour from women in a service industry. Women are socialized to be friendly and smiling to people to begin with, and she is an employee in a place where you are a client. Just because you don't tip like you would if she was a waitress does not mean she's not encouraged to be friendly to the clients, no matter what she really feels.

Secondly, if this isn't the case, then this woman is knowingly flirting with a married man. Is that really the type of woman you would want to have a relationship with? Someone who doesn't respect marriage or people's feelings? Someone who would be willing to break the home of children she cares for? If you think she doesn't know you're married, which she should because daycares know that stuff, then casually mention 'my wife' when you are there for the kids, and see if her behaviour changes.

Third, she's a mirage. You only know limited surface details about her, and nothing about her true personality, her bad habits, etc. You're projecting perfection onto her.

Fourth, as long as you want to keep working on your marriage you're going to have to avoid this other woman. You can't successfully build up a marriage if there's a third party being a distraction. Her very existence is now making your marriage look worse than it actually is. You will not be able to make good decisions with this going on. Have your wife do all the daycare interactions, do your best to go through other employees when you do have to be there, be brief and don't talk about anything non-kid related when talking to her is unavoidable.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The simplest answer to your post is, so what. We all are attracted to people, that is human nature. You shouldn't dwell on it, you just move on. Look at it this way, there are things in stores and such that you see and want, do you just take them? Why not? It's the same thing. Just because you see something and think, that would be nice, doesn't mean you aren't capable of knowing it's not for you and wrong to take it. 

Sounds like you have a good marriage with a good woman who loves you. No one deserves or is entitled to more than that.


----------



## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> *If you're going to save your family, then you absolutely need IC in the worst possible way!
> 
> If it's other women that you're sniffing after, then do the honorable thing and divorce your W and family first!*


Yes, this.


----------



## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

They say the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.
Is it? 

Here's the thing about grass. If you keep it watered, fertilized and de-grubbed, yours could be just as green. 

The day care worker looks fine. She looks fine until she too has three kids, a very busy schedule and not enough money in the budget to get her hair and nails done. And she will plump up too when there is no time for workouts.

Everything that is perfect is at the mercy of the march of time. Time leaves no one behind and no one is solely a spectator. The day care worker will parade the same route as your wife, but not on the same day.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Have you brushed your teeth while your awesome woman is doing a #2 on the toilet? 

No? 

Then you're admiring a mirage. You see what you're desperate to see. 

You need to live in reality.


----------



## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Honestly I think because of the rough patch in your marriage you have latched onto a fantasy.
It's normal...makes us feel better to know even if this doesn't work out then hey..people still find me attractive so it'll be ok. But that doesn't make it ok.
Don't cross the line where you stop working on your marriage and have the "back up" as th center of attention.
Forget her and focus on your marriage and your children. Have you dealt with your depression? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Another thought to consider is this. If your fantasy girl found out that you married your now wife because you were introverted and thought that maybe nothing better would ever come along but now that you have more confidence and pride you do feel that your "value" has exceeded your current wife's worthiness would that make you a prize catch? Someone willing to break up a family so as to climb a rung higher on the "spousal" ladder, as it were? Any woman that would find that appealing would be, by default, as shallow as you are.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I agree with what has been written so far.
Just like animals, we are wired to seek out partners & fall in love & procreate all too easily. The brain is very good at tricking us into believing things to facilitate this process. One usually falls in love with a fantasy, an idealisation of something that may not be there. Sexual attraction at first sight is augmented by hormones. One of the things which distinguishes us from animals is our analytical mind and the ability to comprehend consequences of our actions better.
It's important to understand this process as much as you can, before you can start preventing it. Unless there is something very wrong in your marriage, *you do need to prevent it at all cost.* 
Try to make yourself understand that a lot of it is an illusion and try to think from a reversed perspective (if the same happened to your wife, with another man). Try to understand that once the "in love" hormones wear off, you may find yourself with another person who you don't want to be with, who is significantly inferior to your wife, but by that time, you have torn apart your family, hurt a lot of people and caused a lot of harm to everyone around you.
Sometimes a marriage is better off when it falls apart, but what you describe, seems to be like first symptoms of infatuation. Try to see beyond this to distinguish what is reality and what is a fantasy.

I have been (almost) over the edge once or twice but fortunately realised what was happening just about in time to "cut it out". It helped me (and may be this is a little extreme) when I saw into the future, what the person would do to my family and my life that I built over many years with hard work and the feeling of infatuation would turn into resentment eventually. I know this is not perfect and ideally, we shouldn't feel those things in the first place for it to not be in issue. Unfortunately this can be a really big issue on some occasions and unless you understand exactly what is happening and why, it is very difficult to prevent.
Good luck.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Thank you all for the advice. Believe me I didn't come write these posts looking for validation, more of trying to figure out the why for this particular person and no one else. Another theme I see come up often is the morals of the other woman as well. I just wanted to say that this is all on me. From my brief conversations with her, she is a single Mom with a young child (I don't know the details and know it is none of my business) so if she even were interested (and again I don't know) I would think she would understand about living in a difficult situation and the toll it can take on a family. Not trying to justify anything, I just think its a little quick to attack her character, again this is more about me.

I know some are also saying that there is nothing there and she is just being nice because of it being a service industry. I get that too. I'm not 100% sure either but it does feel like it. I don't run into other workers as much as I do with her and certainly don't see others looking at me as much. Not saying that is a good thing but am hoping it explains why i'm feeling down like I am. 

Like I said the hardest issue is just figuring out what is going on with me. The marriage hasn't been the greatest even before this woman. I've noticed women before and have had friendly conversations with other women (nothing flirting, just about kids, weather, whatever). But this is the first time i've gone to this weird combination of feeling excited and guilty. 

My wife and I have been talking and I am going to do my best to avoid this woman and work harder on the marriage. We've talked about getting away for a weekend and doing something without the kids and such. I just have to get my mind back on track.

Anyway - again I appreciate the advice. This isn't easy.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> Ya I didn't mention that earlier. I know in our discussions i've tried to be honest with my attraction feelings (and how we both aren't as attracted to each other as we used to be). I even went so much as to ask her if she'd be happier with someone else. Although she wouldn't say she has attraction for other men, i'm sure she notices or is happy around certain men as well (I think all people are like this).
> 
> As bad as it sounds if she did have an interest in someone else it would be difficult but I don't think as catastrophic as it would have been 7-8 years ago. And I promise this isn't me just trying to validate myself as I am not thrilled with how i've been feeling. I did quite a bit of thinking about this question.
> 
> Thanks!


If you no longer have feelings for your wife and are ready to let her go, then maybe it is time to end you marriage. 

But as another poster pointed out, if your feelings totally depend on your ability to have a soft landing, and immediately leap into another relationship, which will supposedly make you so much happier without ever having to face yourself in the mirror .... well, then you are basically just using both women to gratify your ego and actually care for neither. And probably not deserving of either of them.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> Thank you all for the advice. Believe me I didn't come write these posts looking for validation, more of trying to figure out the why for this particular person and no one else. Another theme I see come up often is the morals of the other woman as well. I just wanted to say that this is all on me. From my brief conversations with her, she is a single Mom with a young child (I don't know the details and know it is none of my business) so if she even were interested (and again I don't know) I would think she would understand about living in a difficult situation and the toll it can take on a family. Not trying to justify anything, I just think its a little quick to attack her character, again this is more about me.


IME, there just are some people that you click with. I've felt this before, a draw to a particular person that was inexplicable and yet powerful and undeniable. But one thing I learned is that this draw doesn't actually mean that person is "meant to be" or even interested in a relationship. Or a friendship. There maybe something you have to learn from this person, or perhaps just a sympatico that gives you a shared feeling. But none of that is even remotely sufficient for a long-term relationship, even assuming the connection is reciprocated.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Another thought to consider is this. If your fantasy girl found out that you married your now wife because you were introverted and thought that maybe nothing better would ever come along but now that you have more confidence and pride you do feel that your "value" has exceeded your current wife's worthiness would that make you a prize catch? Someone willing to break up a family so as to climb a rung higher on the "spousal" ladder, as it were? Any woman that would find that appealing would be, by default, as shallow as you are.


He clearly "settled" for his wife.. that's just a very sad thing...No one wants to be settled for...

@jasontrents read this thread > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html ... You are IN an infatuated FOG right now.. understand how your hormones are ruling your mind & emotions in this..


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> He clearly "settled" for his wife.. that's just a very sad thing...No one wants to be settled for...


I really didn't get that impression from the OP. I can appreciate that keeping a marriage fresh requires some work and input from both and that after a while it can feel a little "stale", but nowhere did I get the feeling that of having "settled" for something.
Incidentally, when you are infatuated with someone else, thoughts of doubts can often fuel and excuse certain behaviour, that may prove to be destructive for a marriage. So even if you have thoughts such as "how can one be absolutely sure my partner is the most suitable person for me?", it doesn't automatically mean that you actually "settled" for something less. The whole point is that you don't know (and cannot really find out, without destroying your family) whether the other person is definitely "more"!

It's something only you can figure out. Btw, there aren't that many good books on the subject, I think I read "Love and Limerence" at one time which seems to be the only book in the subject of infatuation alone.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I wonder sometimes if I had dates a lot back when I was younger if I would have had a better idea of what I wanted in a relationship."

Do you know what you want in a relationship? What you may have wanted ten years ago is not necessarily what you would want now. Can you assess what you want now and determine its feasibility given current circumstances? If yes, discuss with your wife how to go about getting your desires met in conjunction with her desires.

You say you're an introvert with few friends and limited experience with women. Perhaps, you are reading women wrong. Your infatuation may think she's just being friendly. You have no idea why she is a single woman with kids. Could be another Lorena Bobbitt. You have way too little information to even begin to obsess about her.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> Anyway - again I appreciate the advice. This isn't easy.


It's going to be quite hard actually. Depending on how far along you let yourself get caught up with a person, the withdrawal symptoms can be quite severe.

I spent just a few brief hours with someone, spread over a couple of days (only conversations and a couple of dinners: she was assigned to me during a work trip abroad). This was a week before I got engaged to my wife (who joined me later on that trip in another country and where we spent a holiday together). I felt that I had some of the most intense moments with this person who I only just met (while I had an engagement ring in my suitcase for my future wife). I felt that I could change my whole life for her (and destroy everything I built up to that point).
I felt suicidal for about a week when I left. It got better after a while (few months maybe) and now I pretty much feel like an idiot.
When thinking about it with a sober mind, my wife can absolutely NOT compare to the other girl I met. I feel lucky to be married to her and I am filled with absolute horror as to how easy it is to fool yourself!!
Long story short, I feel your story struck a chord with me.
Just wanted to advocate caution. Unless you are absolutely sure!


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> It's going to be quite hard actually. Depending on how far along you let yourself get caught up with a person, the withdrawal symptoms can be quite severe.
> 
> I spent just a few brief hours with someone, spread over a couple of days (only conversations and a couple of dinners: she was assigned to me during a work trip abroad). This was a week before I got engaged to my wife (who joined me later on that trip in another country and where we spent a holiday together). I felt that I had some of the most intense moments with this person who I only just met (while I had an engagement ring in my suitcase for my future wife). I felt that I could change my whole life for her (and destroy everything I built up to that point).
> I felt suicidal for about a week when I left. It got better after a while (few months maybe) and now I pretty much feel like an idiot.
> ...


Thank you very much for this. I've been trying to figure out the "why" (i.e. why this woman, why now, why no one else) and have been very confused. Hopefully after some time things will return to my normal self. Trying to stop thinking about her is not as easy as I thought as it comes up when I wake up, during the day, etc. I guess talking about my problems on a forum doesn't help either though .


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> Thank you very much for this. I've been trying to figure out the "why" (i.e. why this woman, why now, why no one else) and have been very confused. Hopefully after some time things will return to my normal self. Trying to stop thinking about her is not as easy as I thought as it comes up when I wake up, during the day, etc. I guess talking about my problems on a forum doesn't help either though .


It might, you never know.
Just last thing: try to limit conversations with your wife to your marriage issues and how to improve it or what needs changing etc; *don't* talk with her about your feelings of infatuation or doubts or anything at all related to the other woman. It's not that I advocate dishonesty, it's just that this is an extremely delicate topic and not something you want to be discussing with your wife as it might plant seeds of distrust towards you and push her away, if anything.
For comfort, maybe turn to a trusted friend instead (making sure it doesn't get back to her).
Perhaps one day in future, you _could_ bring it up (carefully), when it's not a threat to your relationship anymore. It might be taken as a sign that you are capable of overcoming basic human weaknesses and cement your marriage.
And avoid ANY contact with the other person, it's the only way to move forward.
As for the "whys", try that book. It answered a lot of my questions.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

jasontrents said:


> Thank you very much for this. I've been trying to figure out the "why" (i.e. why this woman, why now, why no one else) and have been very confused. Hopefully after some time things will return to my normal self. Trying to stop thinking about her is not as easy as I thought as it comes up when I wake up, during the day, etc. I guess talking about my problems on a forum doesn't help either though .


The basic answer to why is that you have developed neural connections for the OW that give you pleasure in your reward circuit in your brain. You are effectively addicted to the Chemicals that interacting with the OW releases. See my link to and old post on Fog v. love in my signature below for more detailed info on it.

This is why you need to treat it like an addiction and cut off as much contact with the OW as possible. And you need to move actively to restore links you used to have with your wife. You need to do the things that helped you fall in love with her again. 

If you keep things as they are the neural connections with the OW will start to replace those of your wife so you need to act quickly. You will probably undergo withdrawal and it may be bad. Be prepared to deal with depression or worse.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I spent 2-3 years in the infatuation stage with a single mom coworker. It was bad. Time and distance help but I still work with her. 

Don't go that route. Get on zoloft to handle the anxiety. 

Stop contact with the woman. Change daycare. It is THAT important. 

You are in love with the fantasy life. It is not real. But the dopamine rush and brain chemicals are very real. 

Treat it like a drug addiction. For that is what it is.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Character is tested in difficult times. What kind of man do you want to be because in today's society many men and women put themselves above commitments they have made. Who are you going to be.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Work on your marriage and while doing so put this other woman completely off your radar. You and your wife are married not dead, so if course you will be attracted to many different people, there is nothing special about her that distinguishes her from other attractive women other than you deciding to let your mind dwell on her. You have given into limerance and allowed yourself to fall into the fog that you've created, so as long as you keep giving this other woman all your mental energy you are only guaranteeing that your marriage will indeed fail. If that's what you want, ie. your marriage to fail, than just be honest about it and don't pretend that it is something out of the control of you and your wife.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Satya said:


> Have you brushed your teeth while your awesome woman is doing a #2 on the toilet?
> 
> No?
> 
> ...


Eeeww! I'm married 20 years and neither of us have ever done that !!!


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

blueinbr said:


> I spent 2-3 years in the infatuation stage with a single mom coworker. It was bad. Time and distance help but I still work with her.
> 
> Don't go that route. Get on zoloft to handle the anxiety.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to write. It helps knowing there are others like me that have been through this trap. Yup the anxiety is bad.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Lon said:


> Work on your marriage and while doing so put this other woman completely off your radar. You and your wife are married not dead, so if course you will be attracted to many different people, there is nothing special about her that distinguishes her from other attractive women other than you deciding to let your mind dwell on her. You have given into limerance and allowed yourself to fall into the fog that you've created, so as long as you keep giving this other woman all your mental energy you are only guaranteeing that your marriage will indeed fail. If that's what you want, ie. your marriage to fail, than just be honest about it and don't pretend that it is something out of the control of you and your wife.


I get what you are saying and do realize we will be attracted to many different people. But I don't understand why this woman is the one that has caused me to be like this lately. All fictional examples, but why wasn't it the coffee girl, my co-worker, the neighbor down the street, etc. That's what confuses me in all of this.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

I work with a woman who is smart, drop dead gorgeous, funny, cute, sexy as hell, 10 years younger,and we get on like a house on fire. I also have a "type" - Penelope Cruz, Salma Hayek - she's Spanish and is better looking than either of them. 

If I designed the perfect woman on a computer it would be her - and I think she likes me too as any time we talk it flows naturally with lots of smiles, laughter, touches and eye contact. But I'm married to a good woman already. So that's a no go. 

Also not willing to blow up my marriage over this, as I don't really know this woman. It's that simple. I just enjoy the rush and the ego boost I get from talking to her and use that when I go home to my wife.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Double post


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> I get what you are saying and do realize we will be attracted to many different people. But I don't understand why this woman is the one that has caused me to be like this lately. All fictional examples, but why wasn't it the coffee girl, my co-worker, the neighbor down the street, etc. That's what confuses me in all of this.




It could have been anyone. But infatuation can only be with only one person at a time (as far as I'm aware). It happened to be that particular woman this time. It could have been somebody else, there are no "mysterious" reasons for this. 
Or does your question imply that there must be something special about her? 
Trouble is all the questions, all the thought processes will make you try and justify why it is the right course of action to pursue your instinct. You have to ignore it if you don't want to lose your marriage for good. It is actually very similar to a mental "illness" as someone mentioned.
The good news, one can recover from on it. Or it becomes the NEW reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Character is tested in difficult times. What kind of man do you want to be because in today's society many men and women put themselves above commitments they have made. Who are you going to be.


^^LOVE this!!! OP, you need to read this over and over.

Remember too, the part in your wedding ceremony when the priest/pastor/celebrant said something along the lines of _"May you retain the strength you will need, to keep the promises you have made"._

This is one of those times where you need to channel that strength.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jasontrents said:


> I get what you are saying and do realize we will be attracted to many different people. But I don't understand why this woman is the one that has caused me to be like this lately. All fictional examples, but why wasn't it the coffee girl, my co-worker, the neighbor down the street, etc. That's what confuses me in all of this.




I refer to this a limerence. Look it up. I have a friend that is same way. Or he was. 

IME it happens when there are stresses in the marriage. Mine was hugely stressed at the time. I mean HUGE. Someone i initially hated showed me attention but never affectIon. She seeks males like me that want some attention. My brain latched on. 

It was a fantasy escape for me from very dark times in my marriage. It never was about her. It is about what she represented. Think about that. My brain filled in what it wanted. I think yours is doing same. 

You can get through this.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

jasontrents said:


> I get what you are saying and do realize we will be attracted to many different people. But I don't understand why this woman is the one that has caused me to be like this lately. All fictional examples, but why wasn't it the coffee girl, my co-worker, the neighbor down the street, etc. That's what confuses me in all of this.


It has nothing to do with her and everything to do with you. You decided, consciously, subconsciously, whatever but it lies 100% with you dwelling on her and establishing the significance. Just like Meson explained above. It is infatuation, limerance, and lust. It has nothing to do with fate, the universe, soul mates or God somehow putting her on a path with you as part of his divine will (if you believe in that sort of thing). There is nothing confusing about it, you simply don't want to give up the idea.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

Lon is correct, it's all within you. It's become significant because you are feeding it. Stop feeding it and it will subside. Something in your interaction with her set you off and you are choosing to focus on it. There is no significance on who it is. I almost ruined a good marriage by thinking there was some significance in my feelings for another. 

But I stopped feeding them and they went away. Since then I have met a couple of other women for which I had an instant attraction. Knowing what I avoided I stopped it up front and minimized contact with them. These things happen but you can stop it if you wish.


----------



## jasontrents (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks to you both...it makes sense. I'm not sure on the how yet...for instance...it's ok to see notice attractive women but despite being attracted to this woman I have to somehow stop feeding my brain. Certainly going to give that a shot this week and am guessing it is a mind over matter type of thing.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Maybe just tell yourself that it's normal to feel a sense of attraction to another woman, and then let the thought go. I think that we beat ourselves up sometimes, for natural thoughts that everyone has. It's when we act on those thoughts in inappropriate ways that matters. Hope that you work past this.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

jasontrents said:


> Thanks to you both...it makes sense. I'm not sure on the how yet...for instance...it's ok to see notice attractive women but despite being attracted to this woman I have to somehow stop feeding my brain. Certainly going to give that a shot this week and am guessing it is a mind over matter type of thing.


I think it is a mind over matter thing, but that doesn't make it simple. I'm also not saying that your marriage will be perfect because the kind of marriage you have is truly between you and your wife. However letting an extra marital infatuation live in your mind prevents you from giving your relationship with your wife a fair shot, and you personally will live with the consequences. I'm wishing you clarity and strength for the week!


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Read up on limerence.
> 
> Actually, you really have nothing firm that she has any interest in you.
> 
> ...


"Men typically overperceive women’s sexual interest. They think a woman is interested in sex when in reality, she isn’t. Which is not to say that women aren’t interested in sex. It’s just that, for a man, a kiss might mean that within the next half hour you should both be naked, smeared in lemon curd, and hitting page 69 of the Kama Sutra. For a woman, a kiss might mean that you’re kissing. Right now. And that’s it."

https://medium.com/@RobertBurriss/d...men-s-sexual-interest-7f34394bbdef#.rhbab1ng5


----------



## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> "I wonder sometimes if I had dates a lot back when I was younger if I would have had a better idea of what I wanted in a relationship."
> 
> Do you know what you want in a relationship? What you may have wanted ten years ago is not necessarily what you would want now. Can you assess what you want now and determine its feasibility given current circumstances? If yes, discuss with your wife how to go about getting your desires met in conjunction with her desires.
> 
> You say you're an introvert with few friends and limited experience with women. Perhaps, you are reading women wrong. Your infatuation may think she's just being friendly. You have no idea why she is a single woman with kids. Could be another Lorena Bobbitt. You have way too little information to even begin to obsess about her.


I fear women who repeat the Mad Hobbit Bobbit's name!

Hands covering my crotch.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> Eeeww! I'm married 20 years and neither of us have ever done that !!!


Hah I'm sorry if it painted a nasty mental picture. It was more to make a blunt point, but if I'm honest hubby and I both have both done this when we're pressed for time. We don't think much of it and we are both potty humored.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Satya said:


> Hah I'm sorry if it painted a nasty mental picture. It was more to make a blunt point, but if I'm honest hubby and I both have both done this when we're pressed for time. We don't think much of it and we are both potty humored.


Just a heads up: It isn't illegal to brush your teeth over the kitchen sink.:wink2:


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Everyone has said what needs to be said and I would add, what kind of woman flirts and hits on a man who is obviously married. You might dump your wife and get with her, but the first man who is better looking and more interesting, more outgoing than you comes along, be sure she'll hit on him and be off.


----------



## Saibasu (Nov 3, 2016)

So basically if she wasn't interested in you then you'd be fine? So that means the only thing keeping you with your wife all this time is because you haven't had other *real* options? Wow guy. Just wow. Whether or not this other woman is interested in you should mean NOTHING to you. Your poor wife  Sit down and clear your head, be a man, and make a decision. Pursue your wife only, or.leave and.pursue someone else. Don't use your "fear" of being wrong about this other woman as the only reason to.atay faithful to.your wife. That's disgraceful.


----------



## loosingsleep90 (Jan 13, 2017)

jasontrents said:


> Yup you bet. We've done counselling, we've expressed our feelings, etc. I feel like we just don't have the passion or the attraction we used to and I think we are both in a similar spot. When I was first with her it was exciting, I couldn't believe this girl wanted to date me, live with me, have children with me, etc. For someone who didn't have a huge amount of experience with women it felt like this was it for me and that i'd never find anyone ever again.
> 
> Over the years my self-worth has gotten better. I excel at my job, I do well with kids, etc. There have been things we disagree with in terms of parenting, lifestyle (I feel she is a bit unmotivated compared to me). Although this woman that came into my life is newer, i've been feeling a little unsure about our marriage for a little while.
> 
> Perhaps I need individual counselling instead?


Have you ever thought that if that happened with her, it could happen with anyone? Remember you once felt that love for her. It dissipated but what happens if happens with the next one. There are no guarantees. I am in a similar position as you. I understand what its like to feel like you are falling in love with a stranger or to love a stranger. My story is a little different than yours because my marriage wasn't failing but I had lost that "loving feeling" for my husband. I fell for someone and had a short EA. I have paid. I am paying. If you like I send you a link to my thread.


----------



## ChipperE (Nov 16, 2016)

About 4 months ago the stress of life, our jobs and a blended family of 4 kids caused my husband and I to have one argument after another for about a solid month. I felt the disconnect from him and it just escalated and we began to feed off of each other. It all came to a head one night when I told him if he couldn't stop being so negative towards me he could get out. And he said okay. We separated for 2 months while he became involved with a girl he worked with that he was "friends" with. She had a boyfriend too. But she began to stroke his ego in that month leading up to our separation...how he was gaining muscle (because of his work outs), how he was so good at his job, how he was such a great dad. He began to crave that attention and eventually he was ready to pull the plug on our "passionless" marriage because he had her there he knew he could have if he wanted. He was depressed, like you are, and this woman gave him an ego boost.

Within a week of our separation he started dating her. Within a week of that he slept with her. Guess what? He couldn't perform. He did not love or even feel passion for this woman. I saw the texts between them and it was like a sad story playing out. She asks.."what is wrong with you? Why couldn't you finish? Are you still in love with your wife? I know you are. You're wrong for leading me on". And this man who uprooted his whole life to chase a fantasy realized it was truly a mirage. He was so ashamed of himself and what he'd done he couldn't even tell me it had fizzled out. 

Luckily for my husband I kept an open heart for him and was willing to attempt reconciliation. He went through and is still in a cycle of depression, and his actions can never be undone. All we can do is move forward, and luckily through marriage counseling and his hard work we are doing very well. WE ARE THE EXCEPTION!

Don't be that guy. If I could give you any advice it would be what I wish my husband would have done: Sit your wife down and tell her you need to talk. Tell her that you find yourself thinking of another woman and you know it's a symptom of your depression and the disconnect from your marriage. Tell her you want to fix it. Work with her to fix it.


----------



## KaggyBear (Jan 16, 2017)

jasontrents said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This post is going to look terrible but I can't help my feeling and have no where else to turn other than the web. Hoping others have been in this position before.
> 
> ...


Find a new child care center and learn how to fall back in love with your wife. You're only wanting to separate because you are infatuated with the day-care lady.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ChipperE said:


> About 4 months ago the stress of life, our jobs and a blended family of 4 kids caused my husband and I to have one argument after another for about a solid month. I felt the disconnect from him and it just escalated and we began to feed off of each other. It all came to a head one night when I told him if he couldn't stop being so negative towards me he could get out. And he said okay. We separated for 2 months while he became involved with a girl he worked with that he was "friends" with. She had a boyfriend too. But she began to stroke his ego in that month leading up to our separation...how he was gaining muscle (because of his work outs), how he was so good at his job, how he was such a great dad. He began to crave that attention and eventually he was ready to pull the plug on our "passionless" marriage because he had her there he knew he could have if he wanted. He was depressed, like you are, and this woman gave him an ego boost.
> 
> Within a week of our separation he started dating her. Within a week of that he slept with her. Guess what? He couldn't perform. He did not love or even feel passion for this woman. I saw the texts between them and it was like a sad story playing out. She asks.."what is wrong with you? Why couldn't you finish? Are you still in love with your wife? I know you are. You're wrong for leading me on". And this man who uprooted his whole life to chase a fantasy realized it was truly a mirage. He was so ashamed of himself and what he'd done he couldn't even tell me it had fizzled out.
> 
> ...


This _is_ quite unusual...Most don't make it through this. I know I could never be able to go back if my wife slept or had an affair with someone else.
Has your marriage changed after this? Is it better/worse? Do you still argue?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jasontrents said:


> The right thing to do is to take a break from my wife and figure things out.


Whoa, whoa, WHOA. Hold up there - what the hell is this????

The VERY FIRST thing you need to do is tell your wife. Exactly what you've been feeling. That is the BEST way to nullify those feelings. Beforehand, maybe seek out an infidelity counselor for advice on exactly what the best way is to do that. But take your lumps. THEN start to repair the marriage. Work WITH your wife and not against her.

And hey, if telling her what you tell her ends things, then it SHOULD be ended. If she can't be bothered to work on it with you and put her heart and soul into it, then ending it's probably for the best.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Wow. Some advice is so bad. Definitely do not tell your wife.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jason, at this point taking a break sounds more like testing the waters. I don't like the idea of telling your wife at this point either but I could be wrong. I hope you can back away from temptation first and then can focus on your relationship and decide where it's going. Otherwise you're making decisions based on your emotions which are clearly dragging you around by the nose at the moment. Hey I get it, sometimes it's tough.

You've heard the phrase "all's fair in love and war"? Well whoever coined that phrase was looking for excuses. A better phrase to follow is "treat others as you wish to be treated". I'm guessing that you don't want to make your wife to hurt emotionally. I'm also guessing that you would like to look back to 2016/2017 and be content with ( even proud of ) how you handled things when you were in a tough situation.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Ask her if she wants to meet for coffee. When she says no, the fantasy is over.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Whoa, whoa, WHOA. Hold up there - what the hell is this????
> 
> The VERY FIRST thing you need to do is tell your wife. Exactly what you've been feeling. That is the BEST way to nullify those feelings. Beforehand, maybe seek out an infidelity counselor for advice on exactly what the best way is to do that. But take your lumps. THEN start to repair the marriage. Work WITH your wife and not against her.
> 
> And hey, if telling her what you tell her ends things, then it SHOULD be ended. If she can't be bothered to work on it with you and put her heart and soul into it, then ending it's probably for the best.


Absolutely not. Unless you are sure you want to end your marriage, *do not tell her*. It may damage your marriage to the point where your wife may never be able to look at you the same way again. It is something you need to deal with yourself. 
And yes, changing the daycare centre is a priority.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Ask her if she wants to meet for coffee. When she says no, the fantasy is over.


What if she says yes?


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Absolutely not. Unless you are sure you want to end your marriage, *do not tell her*. It may damage your marriage to the point where your wife may never be able to look at you the same way again. It is something you need to deal with yourself.
> 
> And yes, changing the daycare centre is a priority.




Op, sometimes we can't control how we feel. You didn't ask to be infatuated with Ms Daycare Hottie. You took no action. That is why you don't tell wife. This is your burden to bear. She won't accept hearing you like another woman, younger of course. 

The minute you take action you move from infatuation to cheating. Remember that.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> What if she says yes?




She won't.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OP: Read up on limerence & infatuations. Once you understand the mechanics of it, you will feel much better. "She" - is irrelevant. It could have happened with anyone. It's human nature. You are lucky that these are early stages.
The aspect to focus on, is your marriage. There is obviously something not quite right (either you are taking each other for granted or you feel you fell out of love or something else). In these instances, people do tend to look around and are more likely to be "infected" with infatuation. 
(I have put down my case of infatuation to huge anxieties of getting married and being emotionally vulnerable & unstable due to long travels away from home. This would have never happened - and has never happened when at home/in the same country). I don't think "why her", is the right question to ask. "Why you" - is more like it.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> OP: Read up on limerence & infatuations. Once you understand the mechanics of it, you will feel much better. "She" - is irrelevant. It could have happened with anyone. It's human nature. You are lucky that these are early stages.
> The aspect to focus on, is your marriage. There is obviously something not quite right (either you are taking each other for granted or you feel you fell out of love or something else). In these instances, people do tend to look around and are more likely to be "infected" with infatuation.
> (I have put down my case of infatuation to huge anxieties of getting married and being emotionally vulnerable & unstable due to long travels away from home. This would have never happened - and has never happened when at home/in the same country). I don't think "why her", is the right question to ask. "Why you" - is more like it.




OP, I learned the word limerence here at TAM only a few months ago. It exactly described what I went through for more than two YEARS. 

Prime is right. Something is driving you. It is not this other woman. Taking a break won't help unless you want to cheat. 

Tell us more about the home life and marriage. We can help. We have been through this.


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

> The right thing to do is to take a break from my wife and figure things out.


Wow!! If my husband came to me and told me he wanted to take a break I'd tell him if he walks out that door, don't bother to come back. Marriage is not stick to it when it's easy and leave when it gets hard. If you want your marriage to work, you put 100% into it. It sound though that you don't want to save this marriage, or maybe you just want a little break to sleep with other woman and if that's the case your wife and family deserve better and maybe you should let them go to find someone that wants to commit to them the way a man should to his family.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Whoa, whoa, WHOA. Hold up there - what the hell is this????
> 
> *The VERY FIRST thing you need to do is tell your wife. Exactly what you've been feeling. That is the BEST way to nullify those feelings. *Beforehand, maybe seek out an infidelity counselor for advice on exactly what the best way is to do that. But take your lumps. THEN start to repair the marriage. Work WITH your wife and not against her.
> 
> And hey, if telling her what you tell her ends things, then it SHOULD be ended. If she can't be bothered to work on it with you and put her heart and soul into it, then ending it's probably for the best.


Totally agree with the bolded. Honesty is the best policy, OP. 

Will you lose your marriage? Maybe. It sounds like you both have been having doubts about it. This may be the catalyst to either improving it, or ending it. Should be helpful either way.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> Wow!! If my husband came to me and told me he wanted to take a break I'd tell him if he walks out that door, don't bother to come back.



And THAT is a pretty accurate prediction of what is going to happen once you are "honest".
Nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> And THAT is a pretty accurate prediction of what is going to happen once you are "honest".
> Nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps. But not telling her is basically just exactly what he's trying to do with the daycare worker. Use other people to gratify his own ego and ensure himself a soft landing whatever he does.

OP was advised against using the daycare worker as this kind of soft landing. But he is to use his wife this way?


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

wild jade said:


> Perhaps. But not telling her is basically just exactly what he's trying to do with the daycare worker. Use other people to gratify his own ego and ensure himself a soft landing whatever he does.
> 
> 
> 
> OP was advised against using the daycare worker as this kind of soft landing. But he is to use his wife this way?




He has an involuntary attraction and is working through it. He came here for help to address it. No one is being used. Certainly not Ms Daycare. She probably barely knows his name. 

IMO he has other marital problems that he needs to identify and face. This is a symptom not a cause.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Is it better for the OP to be punished for thought crime? 
One can't have it both ways. There's again a double standard here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Is it better for the OP to be punished for thought crime?
> One can't have it both ways. There's again a double standard here.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thought crime?

Double standard?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that honesty is often NOT the best policy in marriage when it is honesty about feelings. 

I suspect a lot of people have at some point developed an attraction to others. I have. As long as that attraction is not acted upon, I don't see any reason to tell the spouse. 

Do you really want to hear that your wife thinks the new mail room guy is really hot and sometimes fantasizes about him? 




jld said:


> Totally agree with the bolded. Honesty is the best policy, OP.
> 
> Will you lose your marriage? Maybe. It sounds like you both have been having doubts about it. This may be the catalyst to either improving it, or ending it. Should be helpful either way.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

I don't think the OP said "The right thing to do is to take a break from my wife and figure things out." unless it was a post deleted by a mod. I don't see it in the thread and none of the OP's posts show edits. 

If I did say that then he is out of control with his feelings and he should tell his wife. Transparency about this will quickly extinguish his feelings. It may end his marriage but he was considering it anyway.

Exposing to my wife is what ultimately helped me get over my EA. I needed her help and having her know meant there were no more excuses.

If he is going what his last post said about stopping feeding his brain then he might have a chance to control it and needn't disclose to his wife. I see disclosing to a spouse as a matter of degree and a policy of radical honest can do more harm than good.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> He has an involuntary attraction and is working through it. He came here for help to address it. No one is being used. Certainly not Ms Daycare. She probably barely knows his name.
> 
> IMO he has other marital problems that he needs to identify and face. This is a symptom not a cause.


Agreed. And I said as much earlier in the thread. Or at least tried to. By insisting that this other woman much return his feelings before he does anything about them is him attempting to navigate the situation in a way where he is guaranteeing himself the best possible outcome without having to do any of the work or take any of the risk.

Maybe he isn't using them in the way that they will notice or feel. But he is using them to avoid facing his own issues and feelings and the consequences of them. At least IMHO.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Is it better for the OP to be punished for thought crime?
> One can't have it both ways. There's again a double standard here.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's not being punished for a thought crime. He's facing his own feelings and issues head on, without trying to manipulate at least one woman to be there for him so that he doesn't have to wind up alone.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think that honesty is often NOT the best policy in marriage when it is honesty about feelings.
> 
> I suspect a lot of people have at some point developed an attraction to others. I have. As long as that attraction is not acted upon, I don't see any reason to tell the spouse.
> 
> Do you really want to hear that your wife thinks the new mail room guy is really hot and sometimes fantasizes about him?


I think transparency is *absolutely* the best policy in marriage.

If you feel you cannot be transparent in your marriage, you are probably not with the right person.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> He's not being punished for a thought crime. He's facing his own feelings and issues head on, without trying to manipulate at least one woman to be there for him so that he doesn't have to wind up alone.




He should face the issues he has with his wife head on. He can face the issues he has with the feelings for the daycare mystery woman head on, himself. That doesn't mean he needs to dump it on his wife (who will show him the door straight away, if he shows any insecurity about his feelings).
As I said earlier in the thread, he can tell his wife when this has blown over. He needs to actually work out for himself what is more important and understand where his head is.

There is quite a bit of idealism here ("honesty at any expense") without thought about consequences or understanding when it should apply. Being married doesn't mean that your mind needs to be constantly x-rayed.
It's strange that there is a fairly standard rule book on CWI how to cope with cheating partners. But there isn't one for imaginary infatuations where marriage has a much bigger chance of survival, if noticed and dealt with correctly.
The price he will pay is cutting that person out of his life and live with it. His wife doesn't need to be paying extra..
This is all assuming he actually feels that his marriage is worth it which is the impression I got from his writing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

meson said:


> I don't think the OP said "The right thing to do is to take a break from my wife and figure things out." unless it was a post deleted by a mod. I don't see it in the thread and none of the OP's posts show edits.
> 
> If I did say that then he is out of control with his feelings and he should tell his wife. Transparency about this will quickly extinguish his feelings. It may end his marriage but he was considering it anyway.
> 
> ...




He mentioned taking a break from his wife in his initial post.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> He should face the issues he has with his wife head on. He can face the issues he has with the feelings for the daycare mystery woman head on, himself. That doesn't mean he needs to dump it on his wife (who will show him the door straight away, if he shows any insecurity about his feelings).
> As I said earlier in the thread, he can tell his wife when this has blown over. He needs to actually work out for himself what is more important and understand where his head is.
> 
> There is quite a bit of idealism here ("honesty at any expense") without thought about consequences or understanding when it should apply. Being married doesn't mean that your mind needs to be constantly x-rayed.
> ...


I never said anything about honesty at any expense or about having his head x-rayed. But he has most definitely moved beyond simple passing fancy, and is clearly tormented by doubt about his existing relationship. And the only thing that seems to be holding him back is his doubt about whether that other woman will return his feelings.

So I don't think he can deal with his issues with his wife head on without mentioning that he's basically wondering if there's something better out there for him to sample.


----------



## LadybugMomma (Apr 28, 2016)

jasontrents said:


> Ya I didn't mention that earlier. I know in our discussions i've tried to be honest with my attraction feelings (and how we both aren't as attracted to each other as we used to be). I even went so much as to ask her if she'd be happier with someone else. Although she wouldn't say she has attraction for other men, i'm sure she notices or is happy around certain men as well (I think all people are like this).
> 
> As bad as it sounds if she did have an interest in someone else it would be difficult but I don't think as catastrophic as it would have been 7-8 years ago. And I promise this isn't me just trying to validate myself as I am not thrilled with how i've been feeling. I did quite a bit of thinking about this question.
> 
> Thanks!


IMO, because you're feeling bad about the about the whole situation, is an indication that you're not 100% sure you're making right decision. Based on that, I think you need to do a serious, step back, over all look at your life, wife, kids/family. 

You mention the "what if's." What if you make the move to start a relationship with this other woman, to find out that she isn't all you hoped she'd be? Now, you've lost your wife, family & children....are you going to be okay with that? Suppose by then, while you've been trying to build something w/OW, your wife moves on and finds another man who will be filling a roll of step dad. Is that going to set well with you? 

There are so many "what ifs" in life. The real question is, are you going to be okay with the outcome of it all, in the chance you're thoughts, hopes, dreams aren't all they expected.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> He mentioned taking a break from his wife in his initial post.


I stand corrected. Thank you.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If he tells her, and she freaks out and leaves, then why would he want to be with her??? Any marriage worth saving is going to stand this test. Not telling her is the chickensh1t way to go. Like I said in my post, he might want to consult a counselor beforehand. Or even do it AT a counseling session with his wife. The delivery will be everything - you obviously don't just slam it down.

I know for a fact that if I told my hubby that I was having uncomfortable feelings of lust for a co worker or whoever that our marriage wouldn't end. And I know for a fact that if he told ME something like that, I wouldn't freak out and end the marriage either.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The mention of leaving her over this is what people should be focused on. WTF is with THAT?? Talk about a bad freakin idea!!!!!!


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> The mention of leaving her over this is what people should be focused on. WTF is with THAT?? Talk about a bad freakin idea!!!!!!




He's not leaving. Just taking a break.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I never said anything about honesty at any expense or about having his head x-rayed. But he has most definitely moved beyond simple passing fancy, and is clearly tormented by doubt about his existing relationship. And the only thing that seems to be holding him back is his doubt about whether that other woman will return his feelings.
> 
> So I don't think he can deal with his issues with his wife head on without mentioning that he's basically wondering if there's something better out there for him to sample.


Sorry, I was replying to multiple posts simultaneously while only quoting your post. (Someone mentioned transparency. I equalled it to X-Ray in this case as I don't see the need to report every feeling, every thought to the partner. This is an idealistic view of how a successful partnership works IMO).

Maybe I have it the wrong way around. I don't know what exactly is driving the OP's infatuations and should not be project my own experiences onto his issues which is too easy to do.

I know that in my case, when it happened, I was VERY confused, very unsure about everything and didn't know what on earth hit me. Made up many doubts in my head about my existing relationship to justify my feelings and persuade myself that i wasn't just going insane. 
I know these things can come out of the blue. I also didn't know about infatuation at the time. I was fortunate that I came to my senses. Something in the back of my mind prevented me from making the stupidest mistake of my life. I read a lot on that topic since and it made me understand the whole process better. Had I taken a different path, I am pretty sure my life would be very different right now (a disaster). I didn't know the other person well enough and was infatuated with a complete fantasy while being scared of settling down with the one person I loved all my life. There was nothing wrong with my existing relationship. We had our rough patches but nothing that was terminal. It's terrifying that hormones (or whatever it is) can make you feel and do the stupidest things. 
I now know how not to even come close to this kind of mindset to prevent something like this take control over me ever again.

It might be different with OP. He might really be wanting to find a way to leave his marriage/family. She might really be the girl of his dreams. Who knows.

Based on my experience and based on what I read, it is doubtful that this is anything but a fantasy.
So while honesty is important, at the moment, it is only in his head. He hasn't even had personal conversations with this woman. From the reading of his post, it seemed to me that the OP wasn't sure _why_ this was happening to him. Infatuation is temporary insanity. And it is not advisable to make life-changing decisions when in this state.

If my wife came to me and said that she wasn't sure about her feelings towards me and that she might be developing feelings for someone else, I would thank her for her honesty but would *never* be able look at her the same way again (best case scenario). Worst case, I will have packed my bags before she finished the sentence.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Would you tell your wife that that dress does make her look fat? Or your husband that his penis is OK, but smaller than you like?

Some things should not be mentioned because they will only cause harm. 

Should I really tell my wife that there is a woman I work with who is very attractive and interesting? That rationally I'm fully aware of the "grass is greener" issue and would never ever act on that attraction, but she is really hot?

How would that make anyone's life better?




jld said:


> I think transparency is *absolutely* the best policy in marriage.
> 
> If you feel you cannot be transparent in your marriage, you are probably not with the right person.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Wow. Some advice is so bad. Definitely do not tell your wife.


No marriage will survive if it's based on a foundation of lies (even of omission).


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Would you tell your wife that that dress does make her look fat? Or your husband that his penis is OK, but smaller than you like?
> 
> Some things should not be mentioned because they will only cause harm.
> 
> ...


They will know you better. Your vulnerability will help them understand you, even if it first shocks them.

I am transparent with my husband, uhtred. Transparency builds trust.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Would you tell your wife that that dress does make her look fat? Or your husband that his penis is OK, but smaller than you like?
> 
> Some things should not be mentioned because they will only cause harm.
> 
> ...


I dunno man. If you can't tell your spouse that the outfit doesn't suit them, or doesn't appeal to you, or that you find someone attractive, what can you tell them? Safe topics only? 

Obviously, one needn't be deliberately hurtful. Or rub their faces in it. But if my husband is wearing something that looks awful, I will tell him. And he's talked to me about women he's found attractive. 

Not saying that it's important to announce every passing thought. But if it is as important as "I'm having doubts about our relationship, and wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere", surely they have a right to know. And if it has to be this big dark secret, then it's invested with ever so much more power than when exposed to the light of day. 

It's like meson said -- view your spouse as an ally that you can trust to help you through difficult times. IMHO, this is a much better approach for the long term than viewing them as a piece in your chess game that you have to strategize so that they do what you want.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Based on my experience and based on what I read, it is doubtful that this is anything but a fantasy.
> So while honesty is important, at the moment, it is only in his head. He hasn't even had personal conversations with this woman. From the reading of his post, it seemed to me that the OP wasn't sure _why_ this was happening to him. Infatuation is temporary insanity. And it is not advisable to make life-changing decisions when in this state.
> 
> If my wife came to me and said that she wasn't sure about her feelings towards me and that she might be developing feelings for someone else, I would thank her for her honesty but would *never* be able look at her the same way again (best case scenario). Worst case, I will have packed my bags before she finished the sentence.


I hear what you're saying, but at the same time think that a spouse does have a right to know where they stand in a relationship. I too have had my doubts in the past, and expressed them to my husband. Amazingly enough he didn't leave me, and doesn't look at me differently. He knew that he too wasn't perfect and pure, and didn't expect me to be.

Yes, we can pretend the truth isn't there. But the reality is that the person who lives with us and loves us will no doubt pick up on our altered mood, behavior, preoccupation, and will wonder what the hell is going on. Keeping them in the dark just fuels their worst fears and leaves you absolutely alone in your problems. Not sure it's the wisest approach.

Yes, being honest is risky. But so is not being honest.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> No marriage will survive if it's based on a foundation of lies (even of omission).



We are not talking about a foundation of lies. OP is not Hillary Clinton.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

All I am saying is if my wife tells me too many times that she is being tempted by her attraction to other men, and I start to get the idea she is not that into me, or there is something wrong with her boundaries. I would get fed up with that silliness pretty fast. I assume there are guys at her work that she is attracted to, but I also assume she is adult enough that she doesn't need me to hold her hand about it. Like this is relationships 101, once you get married, that's it. Just like once you get past a certain age you can't wear those clothes. 

What does the spouse say when confronted with this? "There there honey, I know he is hot, we will get through this." Like WTF. "Why are you telling me this? Are you telling me you want someone else?" Yeah that's going to go over well. "I don't know what you want me to do about it, you better fix your 5hit." This is probably the best answer in this case. Which is why you should just fix your 5hit. 

Frankly it should never get to the point where you have to tell your spouse. If you know you are physically attracted to someone you make it a point to avoid them in any other context but business. Again the answer to being attracted to someone once you are married is so what. As that great philosopher Mick Jagger once said, "you can't always get what you want". I think of it the same way I think of that McClaren P1 I would like to own. Nice dream, move on. I don't obsess about it, it can't and shouldn't be. If you do let it preoccupy your mind this is where you are doing wrong to your spouse. 

It's really not that hard, just like not stealing that candy you might want when you know no one will ever find out. You don't go down the slippery slope because it is slippery. If you do then you have boundary issues and telling your spouse ain't going to help them in the long run. It may damage you marriage though. Too much of this becomes a big turnoff.

Better idea is, instead of expecting your wife's love to help you with your shortcomings you go get some counseling to learn clear and healthy boundaries. Then she doesn't have to worry about it as it is really not her job to police you. Nothing kills romance more then being someones parent.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> They will know you better. Your vulnerability will help them understand you, even if it first shocks them.
> 
> I am transparent with my husband, uhtred. Transparency builds trust.


What do you understand, that there spouse struggles with boundaries? How does that help your marriage exactly? Do you expect the spouse to then help the one struggling with not ruminating on having sex with another person? How does the spouse do that exactly?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> What do you understand, that there spouse struggles with boundaries? How does that help your marriage exactly? Do you expect the spouse to then help the one struggling with not ruminating on having sex with another person? How does the spouse do that exactly?


The more you know about each other, the better you will understand each other. Sharing our vulnerabilities with our spouses, especially something like attraction to other people, tends to take the power out of it. Anything we hide, otoh, tends to have power over us. 

I think it is very risky to be less than completely transparent in marriage.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I dunno man. If you can't tell your spouse that the outfit doesn't suit them, or doesn't appeal to you, or that you find someone attractive, what can you tell them? Safe topics only?


One can sugar coat these kinds of things. If you had a thought that the spouse had too much body fat for a dress, you wouldn't say it like that. Does it mean you are lying?




"Obviously, one needn't be deliberately hurtful. Or rub their faces in it. But if my husband is wearing something that looks awful, I will tell him. And he's talked to me about women he's found attractive."

Did he tell you he found them attractive or that he had feelings for them? Or that his biology was insisting that he should copulate with them, in a brief but thorough manner?
It really isn't remotely the same.


"Not saying that it's important to announce every passing thought. But if it is as important as "I'm having doubts about our relationship, and wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere", surely they have a right to know."

It didn't strike me that he was even at the stage yet where he knows what's going on himself. Or why.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> One can sugar coat these kinds of things. If you had a thought that the spouse had too much body fat for a dress, you wouldn't say it like that. Does it mean you are lying?
> 
> "Obviously, one needn't be deliberately hurtful. Or rub their faces in it. But if my husband is wearing something that looks awful, I will tell him. And he's talked to me about women he's found attractive."
> 
> ...


He said they have been having problems for a while. It is not exactly shocking that if his needs are not being met in the marriage, he would feel heightened attraction to other people.

Would not surprise me if his wife is going through the same thing.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> All I am saying is if my wife tells me too many times that she is being tempted by her attraction to other men, and I start to get the idea she is not that into me, or there is something wrong with her boundaries. I would get fed up with that silliness pretty fast. I assume there are guys at her work that she is attracted to, but I also assume she is adult enough that she doesn't need me to hold her hand about it. Like this is relationships 101, once you get married, that's it. Just like once you get past a certain age you can't wear those clothes.
> 
> What does the spouse say when confronted with this? "There there honey, I know he is hot, we will get through this." Like WTF. "Why are you telling me this? Are you telling me you want someone else?" Yeah that's going to go over well. "I don't know what you want me to do about it, you better fix your 5hit." This is probably the best answer in this case. Which is why you should just fix your 5hit.
> 
> Frankly it should never get to the point where you have to tell your spouse. If you know you are physically attracted to someone you make it a point to avoid them in any other context but business. Again the answer to being attracted to someone once you are married is so what. As that great philosopher Mick Jagger once said, "you can't always get what you want". I think of it the same way I think of that McClaren P1 I would like to own. Nice dream, move on..



Even that is a bit idealistic. It's more like fantasising about the McClaren, selling all your belongings to buy it but then realising that it is actually a Skoda in the inside once you have driven it for a while.
I know your example was not about that.

Otherwise 100% agree with the post.
Wife will immediately see it as a hint that she should step away, if the mind is intoxicated with someone else. There is no chance in hell it could be phrased in a way so that it would be received as an outcry for help.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> He said they have been having problems for a while. It is not exactly shocking that if his needs are not being met in the marriage, he would feel heightened attraction to other people.
> 
> 
> 
> Would not surprise me if his wife is going through the same thing.




Yes, that's a "what" not a "why".
Agree she may very well be going through same things. These things are usually not one sided.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Even that is a bit idealistic. It's more like fantasising about the McClaren, selling all your belongings to buy it but then realising that it is actually a Skoda in the inside once you have driven it for a while.
> I know your example was not about that.
> 
> Otherwise 100% agree with the post.
> Wife will immediately see it as a hint that she should step away, if the mind is intoxicated with someone else. There is no chance in hell it could be phrased in a way so that it would be received as an outcry for help.


Being open and honest can absolutely be seen as an outcry for help, if that is what is in your heart.

It is extremely important to share your heart with your partner. It can avoid lots of problems, such as staying with the wrong person. 

And anyone who would respond the way the person in sokillme's example did, is the wrong person, imo. How lonely to feel like you are on your own in marriage.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that's a "what" not a "why".
> Agree she may very well be going through same things. These things are usually not one sided.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All the more reason for him to be completely transparent with her. It invites her transparency, too. Brings needed emotional oxygen into that relationship.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that's a "what" not a "why".
> Agree she may very well be going through same things. These things are usually not one sided.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So maybe if they talk about it, they can find a solution together instead of trying to be independent islands.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Frankly it should never get to the point where you have to tell your spouse. If you know you are physically attracted to someone you make it a point to avoid them in any other context but business. Again the answer to being attracted to someone once you are married is so what. As that great philosopher Mick Jagger once said, "you can't always get what you want". I think of it the same way I think of that McClaren P1 I would like to own. Nice dream, move on. I don't obsess about it, it can't and shouldn't be. If you do let it preoccupy your mind this is where you are doing wrong to your spouse.


People leave each other over this stuff. Or they cheat. Or they spend their lives resenting their partner for being a ball and chain and "trapping" them. Or they feel shortchanged because they had to settle for something that they don't have much respect for or attraction to.

Is this a better solution?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I don't see anything out of the ordinary with the OP. Married, kids, life stresses, focus not on each other anymore, possibly growing apart, etc... Throw in some depression, and the idea of someone else possibly paying attention to you can really be alluring. I will be honest, when things have gotten off in my marriage I definitely find myself more aware of women around me (or maybe a better way to put it, the women who say hi to me or constantly smile at me and I never think about twice, suddenly I do a double take). Makes me feel guilty as heck (which I actually think is a good thing, I would worry the day it didn't bother me). It is what it is, you just need to be careful to not get drawn into some sort of fantasy (and understand as well if you are vulnerable you may be reading into things that aren't actually there).

The question for the OP. Would you be questioning your marriage if this other woman was not there? All I can say is try to focus on your marriage, including counseling. At the end of the day you may just find out that what you thought you had with your W is no longer there, and if that is the case look to take further steps. Just do the right thing and keep 3rd parties out of it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

There seems to be a fear of transparency here. Not sure why that is . . .


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

jld said:


> There seems to be a fear of transparency here. Not sure why that is . . .


I'm generally in favor of transparency and honesty, but there _can _be a downside. Sometimes, it creates new problems and relationship friction, makes it more difficult to deal with issues, and even lead to the alternatives looking _more _attractive. It all depends on how your spouse reacts to these kinds of situations - some welcome communication, and some immediately become offended or go into attack mode. In the latter case, it is better to keep quiet and deal with the situation yourself (IF you can actually do that).


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> There seems to be a fear of transparency here. Not sure why that is . . .




In a normal relationship one partner does not go around telling the other they want to bang someone else. That is not transparency. It's stupidity. OP either gets his act together or he cheats. 

Not to difficult to understand. 

He needs to be honest with himself and hit on the day care chick. When he is shot down he can move on to fix his $hit.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> I'm generally in favor of transparency and honesty, but there _can _be a downside. Sometimes, it creates new problems and relationship friction, makes it more difficult to deal with issues, and even lead to the alternatives looking _more _attractive. It all depends on how your spouse reacts to these kinds of situations - some welcome communication, and some immediately become offended or go into attack mode. In the latter case, it is better to keep quiet and deal with the situation yourself (IF you can actually do that).


Agreed. Sometimes it is better to first try to understand why you are feeling the way you are, maybe work it out on your own. At some point if you don't make any sort of progress, I think you need to deal with the problem head on with your SO. In the OPs case, I think it is clear there are other problems in the marriage. There are some things where it just may cause more unnecessary problems (especially if you know your SO will instinctively react a certain way).


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> There seems to be a fear of transparency here. Not sure why that is . . .


People fear transparency because they want to stay in control. They want to "win". So they play their cards close to their chest, poker faced and bluffing. What they don't realize is that for anyone paying attention, there's always a tell.

That said, I'm not sure transparency is always the solution. It too can be wielded as a weapon ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I'm generally in favor of transparency and honesty, but there _can _be a downside. Sometimes, it creates new problems and relationship friction, makes it more difficult to deal with issues, and even lead to the alternatives looking _more _attractive. It all depends on how your spouse reacts to these kinds of situations - some welcome communication, and some immediately become offended or go into attack mode. In the latter case, it is better to keep quiet and deal with the situation yourself (IF you can actually do that).


This sounds controlling to me, MbH. I would advise putting your honest thoughts and feelings on the table with your spouse and letting the chips fall where they may. Why trying to control a spouse's reaction, or the outcome? Why staying with someone you feel you have to do that with?



blueinbr said:


> In a normal relationship one partner does not go around telling the other they want to bang someone else. That is not transparency. It's stupidity. OP either gets his act together or he cheats.
> 
> Not to difficult to understand.
> 
> He needs to be honest with himself and hit on the day care chick. When he is shot down he can move on to fix his $hit.


I disagree he should hit on her. But being transparent with his wife about his feelings could invite his wife's transparency, and set them both on a healthier path . . . either together, or separately.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> *People fear transparency because they want to stay in control. * They want to "win". So they play their cards close to their chest, poker faced and bluffing. What they don't realize is that for anyone paying attention, there's always a tell.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure transparency is always the solution. It too can be wielded as a weapon ...


I agree with the bolded, jade. All these justifications for not being transparent just seem controlling to me.

I sure would not want to be in a marriage like that.

How do you think transparency can be used as a weapon?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think people are thinking the OP is just being incredibly foolish right now, and that he should hold off telling his wife he "wants to bang someone else" because they think this foolishness will pass.... And then he will have caused pain and destruction while in a fool phase, not for anything real.

Edited to add, I personally would want to know. I'd want to know, even if my partner was just in a fool phase and lusting after someone else. I'd rethink the relationship.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Livvie said:


> I think people are thinking the OP is just being incredibly foolish right now, and that he should hold off telling his wife he "wants to bang someone else" because they think this foolishness will pass.... And then he will have caused pain and destruction while in a fool phase, not for anything real.
> 
> Edited to add, I personally would want to know. I'd want to know, even if my partner was just in a fool phase and lusting after someone else. I'd rethink the relationship.




You just made the point not to tell. 

But there is no certainty this will just pass on its own.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> The more you know about each other, the better you will understand each other. Sharing our vulnerabilities with our spouses, especially something like attraction to other people, tends to take the power out of it. Anything we hide, otoh, tends to have power over us.
> 
> I think it is very risky to be less than completely transparent in marriage.


It's also very risky to tell your spouse you are having feelings for someone else when you haven't acted on them. What if your spouse already deals with insecurity? It's not the slam dunk that you see it as. Marriages break up over this as well. I think if you are having intrusive thoughts you go get help, it's wrong to expect your spouse to help you. I really don't think they can help you, you need a professional with that kind of thing.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> It's also very risky to tell your spouse you are having feelings for someone else when you haven't acted on them. What if your spouse already deals with insecurity? It's not the slam dunk that you see it as. Marriages break up over this as well. I think if you are having intrusive thoughts you go get help, it's wrong to expect your spouse to help you. I really don't think they can help you, you need a professional with that kind of thing.


Your spouse needs to deal with real life, insecurity or not. Facing fears together can only make a marriage stronger.

I have been attracted to lots of men over the course of my nearly 23 year marriage. I always tell Dug if it is more than a passing thought. Takes the power out of it.

Honestly, I cannot think of a single drawback to marital transparency. I can see only risks to non-transparency.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A number of people have likely received very bad responses from their spouses when they were being transparent. If you've never been with someone who reacts that way, it can be difficult to imagine. 



jld said:


> There seems to be a fear of transparency here. Not sure why that is . . .


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> A number of people have likely received very bad responses from their spouses when they were being transparent. If you've never been with someone who reacts that way, it can be difficult to imagine.


I am sure it can be challenging. You have to keep the lines of communication open, but not deny what you are feeling.

People do not usually like change and growth, uhtred. But we have to live in reality, not what we want to be reality.

And remember: you do not have to stay married. If your transparency makes the marriage dissolve, it is for the best, for both of you. 

Just make sure you are transparent from the getgo with the next person. You will save yourself lots of stress.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I am sure it can be challenging. You have to keep the lines of communication open, but not deny what you are feeling.
> 
> People do not usually like change and growth, uhtred. But we have to live in reality, not what we want to be reality.
> 
> ...


To each his or her own I guess. I would get tired of hearing about all the men my wife is attracted to. I just think that is normal and doesn't need to be discussed. It wouldn't make me fell closer to her that's for sure. 

jld, do you understand that most men see women they are attracted to physically constantly throughout the day? It's a part of our biological nature? Should I tell my wife about all of them? Why? I just don't see any point.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> To each his or her own I guess. I would get tired of hearing about all the men my wife is attracted to. I just think that is normal and doesn't need to be discussed. It wouldn't make me fell closer to her that's for sure.
> 
> jld, do you understand that most men see women they are attracted to physically constantly throughout the day? It's a part of our biological nature? Should I tell my wife about all of them? Why? I just don't see any point.


If she tells you not to tell her, maybe not. But does she know you feel attracted to all those women? That could be educational for her.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> If she tells you not to tell her, maybe not. But does she know you feel attracted to all those women? That could be educational for her.


In what way, I am no different than any other man including Dug, and if you don't believe that you don't know men. My job is to protect her. I am not thinking about acting on anything, it's a passing thought or more so a primal thing, like when a woman sees a baby and she feels her ovaries explode. I don't want her to worry about it. I don't want her to get the wrong idea that she is competing with them, even if it is subconsciously, because she's not. This is just a part of my nature that I have chosen to never act on because of my love for her. She knows that part of the equation because that is what the vows are, she doesn't need to know about the day to day of it.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

It strikes me that some of the "transparency" discussed here can easily be substituted with selfishness and neediness. Pretty sure any reasonable spouse would expect the other to deal with this mess on their own as long as no boundaries have been crossed. 
It really doesn't seem considerate to burden the other with these things (not only these types of thoughts but basically anything else that might be easily be dealt with without burdening the other person).

Maybe it should be discussed what exactly are the boundaries. To me they are pretty obvious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> In what way, I am no different than any other man including Dug, and if you don't believe that you don't know men. My job is to protect her. I am not thinking about acting on anything, it's a passing thought or more so a primal thing, like when a woman sees a baby and she feels her ovaries explode. I don't want her to worry about it. I don't want her to get the wrong idea that she is competing with them, even if it is subconsciously, because she's not. This is just a part of my nature that I have chosen to never act on because of my love for her. She knows that part of the equation because that is what the vows are, she doesn't need to know about the day to day of it.


 @Duguesclin

Dug, would you like to respond to the first part?

Sokillme, as to the second part, why are you afraid of your wife knowing your feelings? Why are you trying to control her? Whatever idea she gets from it is for her to decide, no?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I rarely - VERY rarely - agree with jld, and I don't 100% agree with her here, but I don't understand how so many people fail to see the benefits of telling your spouse when something like this is happening??

If you have a really great relationship with your spouse, you should WANT to talk about threats to your marriage. I am not talking about some passing lust for the super hot pharmacist at your grocery store (ahem) that makes your knees weak every time you pick up your prescription. That's a visceral thing and no kind of threat to your marriage. You might mention it at some point if you're talking to your spouse about physical types you find attractive or something, but not as a big problem. But when you're feeling what this guy is, THAT is a threat to the marriage. He's thinking of splitting over it. Why would you NOT want to bring it up?? Why would you be so scared of your spouses reaction? And if you ARE that scared of their reaction, why the hell are you not trying to figure out WHY you're so scared?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> It strikes me that some of the "transparency" discussed here can easily be substituted with selfishness and neediness. Pretty sure any reasonable spouse would expect the other to deal with this mess on their own as long as no boundaries have been crossed.
> It really doesn't seem considerate to burden the other with these things (not only these types of thoughts but basically anything else that might be easily be dealt with without burdening the other person).
> 
> Maybe it should be discussed what exactly are the boundaries. To me they are pretty obvious.
> ...


If wanting communication in a relationship to be honest and open is selfish and needy, then all hail selfishness and neediness, lol!

If you are both transparent, the boundaries are likely to take care of themselves.

Honestly, I do not understand all this fear of transparency. Do you think your marriages are going to fall apart if you are honest and open? Why would you want to be in a marriage like that, anyway?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> @Duguesclin
> 
> Dug, would you like to respond to the first part?
> 
> Sokillme, as to the second part, why are you afraid of your wife knowing your feelings? Why are you trying to control her? Whatever idea she gets from it is for her to decide, no?


I'm not afraid of anything. I'm sure she knows I am attracted to other women. It's not important as it has no impact on anything, it just is a part of my nature.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I rarely - VERY rarely - agree with jld, and I don't 100% agree with her here, but I don't understand how so many people fail to see the benefits of telling your spouse when something like this is happening??
> 
> If you have a really great relationship with your spouse, you should WANT to talk about threats to your marriage. I am not talking about some passing lust for the super hot pharmacist at your grocery store (ahem) that makes your knees weak every time you pick up your prescription. That's a visceral thing and no kind of threat to your marriage. You might mention it at some point if you're talking to your spouse about physical types you find attractive or something, but not as a big problem. But when you're feeling what this guy is, THAT is a threat to the marriage. He's thinking of splitting over it. Why would you NOT want to bring it up?? Why would you be so scared of your spouses reaction? And if you ARE that scared of their reaction, why the hell are you not trying to figure out WHY you're so scared?


See get what you are saying in sense, but I think jld wants you to tell your spouse about the pharmacist, and I think that would get tiring really fast. My response would be why are you telling me this?

I can both ways with this guy. If they already have problems this may put it over the top. He needs to get some IC that is for sure, maybe he and the IC can figure out if it is a good idea to tell.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would tell about the pharmacist. I want a pure heart and conscience before my husband. No secrets.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I would tell about the pharmacist. I want a pure heart and conscience before my husband. No secrets.


Ya well see that's just overkill. Might work for you guys, but the VAST VAST majority of relationships aren't built, and shouldn't BE built, on telling every single teeny tiny thing that you think makes you impure.

I recommended the OP tell his wife because that immediately takes the power out of his attraction to this woman, and his attraction to this woman has the potential to end their marriage. I also recommended he seek professional advice before doing so.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People are "scared" because some spouses will react very badly to this sort of information. They may assume that the mention of another attraction implies thoughts of leaving. They may worry that they are being judged relative to this other person. 

Imagine you are a typical middle aged guy - OK shape for someone in their 40s, nice mid-level management job. Like to go bowling and listen to Jazz. Now your wife comes home an tells you that this ex-marine just started working in her office. He likes to sky-dive and rock-climb. He has a scar from shrapnel from a firefight in Afghanistan. He's a really nice guy and she finds him very attractive. Of course she would never do anything with him, because she wouldn't want to disrupt the wonderful loving marriage that you two have. 


Do you really want to know that? This is different from her thinking that John Snow (GOT) is really cute, or the waiter at the pizza place is really hot. This is someone she works with all the time. 

Personally I wouldn't mind because I have a lot of self-confidence, but for someone who is already insecure, would telling them really help?




Hope1964 said:


> I rarely - VERY rarely - agree with jld, and I don't 100% agree with her here, but I don't understand how so many people fail to see the benefits of telling your spouse when something like this is happening??
> 
> If you have a really great relationship with your spouse, you should WANT to talk about threats to your marriage. I am not talking about some passing lust for the super hot pharmacist at your grocery store (ahem) that makes your knees weak every time you pick up your prescription. That's a visceral thing and no kind of threat to your marriage. You might mention it at some point if you're talking to your spouse about physical types you find attractive or something, but not as a big problem. But when you're feeling what this guy is, THAT is a threat to the marriage. He's thinking of splitting over it. Why would you NOT want to bring it up?? Why would you be so scared of your spouses reaction? And if you ARE that scared of their reaction, why the hell are you not trying to figure out WHY you're so scared?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Ya well see that's just overkill. Might work for you guys, but the VAST VAST majority of relationships aren't built, and shouldn't BE built, on telling every single teeny tiny thing that you think makes you impure.
> 
> I recommended the OP tell his wife because that immediately takes the power out of his attraction to this woman, and his attraction to this woman has the potential to end their marriage. I also recommended he seek professional advice before doing so.


Why should relationships not be built on purity?

I think my husband cherishes my trust in him.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uhtred, I think what you are missing is that the convo does not end with an admission of attraction. It is the beginning of communication between the spouses.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Ya well see that's just overkill. Might work for you guys, but the VAST VAST majority of relationships aren't built, and shouldn't BE built, on telling every single teeny tiny thing that you think makes you impure.
> 
> 
> 
> I recommended the OP tell his wife because that immediately takes the power out of his attraction to this woman, and his attraction to this woman has the potential to end their marriage. I also recommended he seek professional advice before doing so.




So...you just contradicted yourself. The fact that the OP might have problems in his marriage has nothing to do with this particular woman. 
His infatuation is on par of that with your pharmacist. Perhaps a little more carried away. But not by much.
As I said, double standards are at large here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> People are "scared" because some spouses will react very badly to this sort of information. They may assume that the mention of another attraction implies thoughts of leaving. They may worry that they are being judged relative to this other person.
> 
> Imagine you are a typical middle aged guy - OK shape for someone in their 40s, nice mid-level management job. Like to go bowling and listen to Jazz. Now your wife comes home an tells you that this ex-marine just started working in her office. He likes to sky-dive and rock-climb. He has a scar from shrapnel from a firefight in Afghanistan. He's a really nice guy and she finds him very attractive. Of course she would never do anything with him, because she wouldn't want to disrupt the wonderful loving marriage that you two have.
> 
> ...


That isn't the kind of thing I think you need to tell. I think you only need to tell when it threatens your marriage. If she was having thoughts of leaving you for him then HELL ya she should tell you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> So...you just contradicted yourself. The fact that the OP might have problems in his marriage has nothing to do with this particular woman.
> His infatuation is on par of that with your pharmacist. Perhaps a little more carried away. But not by much.
> As I said, double standards are at large here.
> 
> ...


I think it is quite a bit more than the pharmacist. Plus he has not been happy in his marriage. I think he is on very shaky ground.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> That isn't the kind of thing I think you need to tell. I think you only need to tell when it threatens your marriage. If she was having thoughts of leaving you for him then HELL ya she should tell you.


Those thoughts start somewhere, Hope. Why not expose them right away?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Why should relationships not be built on purity?
> 
> I think my husband cherishes my trust in him.


Like people have told you a MILLION times, your relationship is very very atypical. It's great that it works for you, but the vast majority of relationships do not have the same dynamic and never will. I know you know that.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Those thoughts start somewhere, Hope. Why not expose them right away?


Because often when you expose things that aren't rotten, they begin to rot THEN.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> So...you just contradicted yourself. The fact that the OP might have problems in his marriage has nothing to do with this particular woman.
> His infatuation is on par of that with your pharmacist. Perhaps a little more carried away. But not by much.
> As I said, double standards are at large here.


No they're not. You're using a chicken/egg argument.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Like people have told you a MILLION times, your relationship is very very atypical. It's great that it works for you, but the vast majority of relationships do not have the same dynamic and never will. I know you know that.


I think any relationship can grab onto transparency and purity. It is never too late, Hope, no matter the dynamic.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Because often when you expose things that aren't rotten, they begin to rot THEN.


I disagree. I think you can prevent a lot of trouble by confessing any attraction as it comes along. 

And if you do not even think of it, then it clearly was not a big attraction.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think it is quite a bit more than the pharmacist. Plus he has not been happy in his marriage. I think he is on very shaky ground.




Cart before the horse. People are usually first unhappy and then tend to find a pharmacist, sorry daycare women and extrapolate them onto their marriage.
If they are happy, they may still get those tingling sensations of attraction but don't dwell on them and simply push them to the side.

(Funny how long this conversation keeps going; I bet the OP is in the Bahamas with both his wife, daycare lady and the pharmacist, having a great time).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Ya well see that's just overkill. Might work for you guys, but the VAST VAST majority of relationships aren't built, and shouldn't BE built, on telling every single teeny tiny thing that you think makes you impure.
> 
> I recommended the OP tell his wife because that immediately takes the power out of his attraction to this woman, and his attraction to this woman has the potential to end their marriage. I also recommended he seek professional advice before doing so.


I don't know why everyone assumes it takes the power out of it. There are stories just recently about how the WS confessed to EA, and then still start up PA after the spouse knew about the EA. I have read stories where the BS knew, warned the WS before it happened and they still had an EA or PA I don't remember. I don't think anyone should assume confession is going to solve the problem. Since it has gotten this far the poster needs boundaries and to learn coping skills, how to deal with intrusive thought. That takes work and IC. This is a big problem at this point and needs to be worked on.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I think any relationship can grab onto transparency and purity. It is never too late, Hope, no matter the dynamic.


I know you think this. It really does detract from the point you're trying to get across. And you're wrong about it too.

Certain things, things that have started to rot, have to be exposed to the light of day to dig them up and take away their power. Other things are far better left buried in the sand where the anaerobic environment inhibits the growth of putrefying microorganisms.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> No they're not. You're using a chicken/egg argument.




Not sure you read the OP's OP (is this right abbreviation?) properly.
He says things were not great for the past few years. The daycare lady came along later. It's textbook actually.
It's funny that we are actually agreeing about the principle (on not bothering to tell certain things (pharmacy stuff etc) yet you don't seem to think it should apply to the OP).






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I don't know why everyone assumes it takes the power out of it. There are stories just recently about how the WS confessed to EA, and then still start up PA after the spouse knew about the EA. I have read stories where the BS knew, warned the WS before it happened and they still had an EA or PA I don't remember. I don't think anyone should assume confession is going to solve the problem. Since it has gotten this far the poster needs boundaries and to learn coping skills, how to deal with intrusive thought. That takes work and IC. This is a big problem at this point and needs to be worked on.


Those relationships should have ended whether the story was told or not. Probably WOULD have ended. Some people just shouldn't be married, or shouldn't be married to the person they ARE married to.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Those relationships should have ended whether the story was told or not. Probably WOULD have ended. Some people just shouldn't be married, or shouldn't be married to the person they ARE married to.




Or they could just deal with certain issues like adults.
I'm off to Bahamas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Those relationships should have ended whether the story was told or not. Probably WOULD have ended. Some people just shouldn't be married, or shouldn't be married to the person they ARE married to.


So my take is they should talk but not about his attraction because that is a symptom, they should talk about the problem which is the state of the marriage. If they solve the problem the symptom will go away, if not then he needs to get some techniques to help him stop his intrusive thoughts and the wife can't help him with that. It's also not her issue.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Not sure you read the OP's OP (is this right abbreviation?) properly.
> He says things were not great for the past few years. The daycare lady came along later. It's textbook actually.
> It's funny that we are actually agreeing about the principle (on not bothering to tell certain things (pharmacy stuff etc) yet you don't seem to think it should apply to the OP).


I think things have gotten out of hand for the OP, and telling his wife would bring things to a screeching halt. The emergency is him thinking of leaving because of this OW. It would stop that nonsense. Then, once that's dealt with, they can start to work on the problems that led up to it.

Of course, I have been known to be wrong once in a while  I recommend it because blowing sh1t up as a way of stopping emergencies has worked for me in the past, and it's often not something people consider, or even think of.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

The OP seriously needs to sort things out on his own (with the help of a counselor) at first. He is thinking about taking a break from his W/family for some woman who he doesn't even really know. Is it this particular woman? Could it be any woman who showed some sort of interest in him? I am thinking the latter is the case, which means there are a whole slew of issues. I would try to sort things out with a counselor first, see if he could better organize his thoughts. After that, then have a talk with his W, lay it all out there, and see where it goes.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I know you think this. It really does detract from the point you're trying to get across. And you're wrong about it too.
> 
> Certain things, things that have started to rot, have to be exposed to the light of day to dig them up and take away their power. Other things are far better left buried in the sand where the anaerobic environment inhibits the growth of putrefying microorganisms.


I disagree. I think transparency in marriage is essential for healthy marriage. No secrets.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I disagree. I think transparency in marriage is essential for healthy marriage. No secrets.


And everyone disagrees with you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> And everyone disagrees with you.


Truth is truth, Hope, no matter its popularity.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Truth is truth, Hope, no matter its popularity.


YOUR truth is not that of every other person on the planet. It would be REALLY nice if you'd realize that. Platitudes like this do nothing to convince people otherwise, either.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> YOUR truth is not that of every other person on the planet. It would be REALLY nice if you'd realize that. Platitudes like this do nothing to convince people otherwise, either.


I think our discussions here are food for thought for the many who read but may not participate. Sharpens our own thinking, too.

If you do not have any secrets in marriage, OP, if your lives become an open book to each other, you can start repairing your marriage, or move on. 

You may not end up agreeing on everything. But at least it will all be on the table. It makes effective communication a lot easier.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

frusdil said:


> Of course it was, because it was new! Can't you see that it's the same with this woman? Very unfair to compare your marriage to your infatuation for this new woman...apples and oranges. A long marriage can't possibly compete with a shiny new woman, who you only ever see at her best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great reply. Nothing good ever comes from cheating.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You are not free to persue another relationship. You are a husband and father and you need to stay away from this lady. You made promises, and you will break many hearts if you carry on. It will only end in pain and misery. What sort of woman goes after another womans husband anyway?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> You are not free to persue another relationship. You are a husband and father and you need to stay away from this lady. You made promises, and you will break many hearts if you carry on. It will only end in pain and misery. *What sort of woman goes after another womans husband anyway*?


Per the bolded, if you read the OPs posts, he has no idea if she is actually interested in him, he is just basing it on a few smiles, eye contact, and being friendly. This may be all on him as more of a fantasy / wishful thinking than the other woman going after him.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> You are not free to persue another relationship. You are a husband and father and you need to stay away from this lady. You made promises, and you will break many hearts if you carry on.


:iagree: And no one deserves more than that in life. I might add.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> How do you think transparency can be used as a weapon?


Emotional blackmail, as one example. 

Keeping your partner off balance and second guessing by constantly pointing out ones doubts and fears, as another.

I'm sure there are other examples ...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> People are "scared" because some spouses will react very badly to this sort of information. They may assume that the mention of another attraction implies thoughts of leaving. They may worry that they are being judged relative to this other person.


But OP actually is considering leaving his wife. And he is judging his wife relative to this other person.

So the wife would actually be absolutely correct in worrying about this things. And you think OP should leave her in the dark?

I would absolutely want to know if my husband was thinking of leaving me and judging me against another person. It would give me a chance to prepare emotionally and plan. Otherwise, he would just be either blindsiding me with his own selfish whims, or keeping me deliberately blind so he could cheat with impunity.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> You just made the point not to tell.
> 
> But there is no certainty this will just pass on its own.


And you just made the point that refusing to tell is actually all about selfishness, saving one's ass, and controlling one's spouse, and not the "I don't want to hurt her feelings" that so many here are pretending it is.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

wild jade said:


> And you just made the point that refusing to tell is actually all about selfishness, saving one's ass, and controlling one's spouse, and not the "I don't want to hurt her feelings" that so many here are pretending it is.




Now that's a stretch. Jeez. 

Have you ever wanted to harm someone because they wronged you or cut you off in traffic? You don't report to the police to turn yourself in or check into a mental health facility. 

You work it out if transient. 

Op, don't tell you wife. Every guy here says dont tell her, as do most of the women. The majority can't be wrong, but you know your wife.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see it as a tricky problem. 

The OP might well realize that leaving his wife would be a terrible mistake and that this was just a stupid momentary infatuation. If he doesn't tell her, things go back to normal. He feels foolish, but maybe never does it again. If he does tell her, then even when he realizes his mistake, she, depending on her personality, may spend the rest of her life worrying. 

OTOH, if there is a chance that telling her would increase his chances of realizing his mistake, then telling might be a good thing to do. 


OTOOH: there is a good chance that telling her will reduce his chances of staying. I think many people would become upset, angry , or otherwise react negatively. That might well drive him further towards this other woman. In the end telling will hurt both of them. 


I understand the idea that in some moral sense he *should* tell, he is at least mentally behaving badly. But at the same time telling could make it worse for both of them.











wild jade said:


> But OP actually is considering leaving his wife. And he is judging his wife relative to this other person.
> 
> So the wife would actually be absolutely correct in worrying about this things. And you think OP should leave her in the dark?
> 
> I would absolutely want to know if my husband was thinking of leaving me and judging me against another person. It would give me a chance to prepare emotionally and plan. Otherwise, he would just be either blindsiding me with his own selfish whims, or keeping me deliberately blind so he could cheat with impunity.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think with this topic (i.e. telling a SO or not) there is no universal answer. You really need to take it on a case by case basis, understand the situation, the circumstances, the persons involved, etc... Some situations may warrant telling your SO, other situations not. Going out and blurting whatever pops in your head in the name of "transparency" can be just as damaging as keeping things to yourself.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Emotional blackmail, as one example.
> 
> Keeping your partner off balance and second guessing by constantly pointing out ones doubts and fears, as another.
> 
> I'm sure there are other examples ...


That would be very hurtful, to have your partner make threats against you based on your sharing your sincere feelings with them. It is a power play. 

Best to call their bluff and let the chips fall where they may. At least they will not have that power over you anymore.

Transparency can teach us a lot about ourselves, and a lot about our partners, depending on how they react to it. We can realize, for example, that they are not the best match for us, and then move on. 

Or we can see their weaknesses, and decide it is still worth it to us to stay with them, but not letting them have certain power over us, nor try to manipulate them in any way in return, while still being transparent with them. It would take a lot of inner strength to do that. It would require maturity, and owning our feelings.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Now that's a stretch. Jeez.
> 
> Have you ever wanted to harm someone because they wronged you or cut you off in traffic? You don't report to the police to turn yourself in or check into a mental health facility.
> 
> ...


I always swear at people when they cut me off in traffic -- although no, I don't wish them any harm. However, I also don't torment myself over this, nor do I need to go to an internet message board to seek out other people's opinions of what I should do, oh, woe is me, why is this driver preoccupying my every thought, and oh, I need to quit driving because this driver pissed me off so much.

Upshot is that you are determined that this is just a transient flash of feeling that he should simply squash and pretend didn't happen. But I think that since he has let it torment him so much and because he has such ambivalent feelings about his wife, that squashing it simply means he'll either resent his wife for all his lost opportunities and unlived life (in which case this will happen again and again and again) or he'll cheat, or he'll leave her. And all of these situations absolutely do require her knowledge.

I also think that this whole "you don't need to be honest" push is basically just an ostrich head in the sand approach that is simply about being able to pretend one is something else than they really are and the relationship is something other than it is. Think about it: most of those advocating STFU are also saying that they absolutely are attracted to others all the time, and know that their spouse is too. They just elect not to talk about it. If it's absolutely true, then maybe there is no reason to repeat the obvious, but then again there is also no reason to insist on this cloak of secrecy. No big deal, right? We all do it.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> That would be very hurtful, to have your partner make threats against you based on your sharing your sincere feelings with them. It is a power play.
> 
> Best to call their bluff and let the chips fall where they may. At least they will not have that power over you anymore.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about emotional blackmail on the part of the person who is supposedly transparent. As in things like "I'll kill myself if you don't love me enough." Or, "I give you everything, my heart, my soul, my everything, and now you owe me something." Emotional blackmail is often called being "honest" or "transparent", as in "I'm just telling you how I feel", but is itself nothing more than a weapon.

As another example. There was a period of time many years ago where I had doubts about the future of my relationship with my husband. And I not only told him. But I told him and told him and told him. I didn't blackmail him over it, but boy was I transparent. And at one point he said to me something along the lines of "yes, we both know that you're not sure about any of this. One of these days you'll make up your mind." And after that I just STFU because I realized that I was basically pushing him to feel as off balanced as I was feeling. And now when I have such things to say, I don't let my own badgery thoughts badger him.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

sokillme said:


> In what way, I am no different than any other man including Dug, and if you don't believe that you don't know men. My job is to protect her. I am not thinking about acting on anything, it's a passing thought or more so a primal thing, like when a woman sees a baby and she feels her ovaries explode. I don't want her to worry about it. I don't want her to get the wrong idea that she is competing with them, even if it is subconsciously, because she's not. This is just a part of my nature that I have chosen to never act on because of my love for her. She knows that part of the equation because that is what the vows are, she doesn't need to know about the day to day of it.


There is a difference noticing a woman is attractive and having primal instincts toward her.

I do notice women, but I do not think of how it would feel to have sex with them.

Maybe next time you are in a room with women and you have primal instincts for one of them, think of being in a room with guys and having one of the them who is gay lusting after you. How would it feel (assuming you are not gay)? That is probably how women feel when men lust after them.

If you have feelings for other women, it would be healthy for your wife to know about it. She may feel hurt. If you love her, you will want to understand why. She could help you grow away from your animal instincts.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I see it as a tricky problem.
> 
> The OP might well realize that leaving his wife would be a terrible mistake and that this was just a stupid momentary infatuation. If he doesn't tell her, things go back to normal. He feels foolish, but maybe never does it again. If he does tell her, then even when he realizes his mistake, she, depending on her personality, may spend the rest of her life worrying.
> 
> ...


How many hands do you have? :wink2:

IMHO, the issue of telling her isn't some sort of confessional for a thought crime, it is because it's a responsibility of a spouse to let their partner know when things are falling apart. That gives them a chance to help, prepare, and plan.

Same sort of reasoning applies if you lost all of your retirement savings in a stock market crash, or lost your job, or were diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Or you've been having an affair. Or a gambling addiction. Some people will try to hide these sorts of things as well in the name of "protecting" their spouse from the "burden". But that's not really why they're keeping it secret.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I'm talking about emotional blackmail on the part of the person who is supposedly transparent. As in things like "I'll kill myself if you don't love me enough." Or, "I give you everything, my heart, my soul, my everything, and now you owe me something." Emotional blackmail is often called being "honest" or "transparent", as in "I'm just telling you how I feel", but is itself nothing more than a weapon.
> 
> As another example. There was a period of time many years ago where I had doubts about the future of my relationship with my husband. And I not only told him. But I told him and told him and told him. I didn't blackmail him over it, but boy was I transparent. And at one point he said to me something along the lines of "yes, we both know that you're not sure about any of this. One of these days you'll make up your mind." And after that I just STFU because I realized that I was basically pushing him to feel as off balanced as I was feeling. And now when I have such things to say, I don't let my own badgery thoughts badger him.


Okay, I think we are talking about power dynamics here more than transparency. 

No one is forced to give into emotional blackmail. No one is entitled to a partner, either. We are all free to leave, or to set our own limits in a relationship. We do have to take responsibility for our feelings, and for our choices in the relationship, unless perhaps we have an arrangement otherwise, freely consented to by both parties. And even then, I think we are ultimately stuck with our feelings and our choices. We are the ones living with them, after all.

As to your "badgering" him, I see it more as you wanting to be heard. And when your feelings were at least somewhat acknowledged, something in you shifted. Did you become scared of losing the relationship? Did you sense you had more influence over him than you realized?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> There is a difference noticing a woman is attractive and having primal instincts toward her.
> 
> I do notice women, but I do not think of how it would feel to have sex with them.
> 
> ...


I guess we are just different, I wouldn't care if anyone man or woman had those feelings for me, I am sure it has happened. I mean it's not like I haven't been flirted with. For a long time I worked in the entertainment industry I have more than one guy approach me. Such is life, it really had no affect on me what so ever. 

As far as my wife, I just don't see her as my confessional, when things that do on in my mind have no direct correlation to her anyway. They are no more the passing thoughts, I am not suffering and have no impact on her or our relationship. I want her to protect her from fears that have no impact on her at all. I feel that is part of my job. When there are real issues that need discussion then I am happy to have her support. This is not one of them, at least in our life.

I also would NOT want to know this from my wife. Again as I stated before, my response would be "why are you telling me this?" Are you having problems? It would not create a sense of bonding in me. It would probably do the opposite in fact because I would assume that if it got so bad that she had to tell me she is doing so to have me help her control it. I don't feel this is my job. I am not nor do I want to be the steward of my wife's character. I am fully aware of her type and could probably assume guys she is attracted to. I also assume from all her actions that that is about as far as it goes. 

Honestly, there has never been any time in my 15-year relationship that I was struggling so much with an attraction to someone that I felt I need to talk to anyone about it. I wonder what is going on that all of you folks have to do that.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't see is as quite the same as all of your examples. 

Stock market crasy, lost job, cancer, etc all are things that have already happened and will require her to change her behavior (eg spend less money).

I'll put aside affair because there are already infinite threads on what actions should be taken.


Gambling addition is closer - but I see that as different because it is already (presumably) causing actual harm, money is disappearing. 


There is a sense that the potentially straying spouse has done something wrong and needs to be punished by confessing. But does the righteousness of that confession outweigh the misery it would cause?


Take my case. My wive has stopped having sex with me. I watch porn. She would object if she knew. Should I confess? It would upset her, and to what gain for anyone? 


In this case, If someone says - I'm really attracted to this person at work and fantasize about leaving our marriage. Then what? It will cause great distress to the spouse, but with basically nothing that they can do that isn't likely to just make the odds of divorce even higher. 






wild jade said:


> How many hands do you have? :wink2:
> 
> IMHO, the issue of telling her isn't some sort of confessional for a thought crime, it is because it's a responsibility of a spouse to let their partner know when things are falling apart. That gives them a chance to help, prepare, and plan.
> 
> Same sort of reasoning applies if you lost all of your retirement savings in a stock market crash, or lost your job, or were diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Or you've been having an affair. Or a gambling addiction. Some people will try to hide these sorts of things as well in the name of "protecting" their spouse from the "burden". But that's not really why they're keeping it secret.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> In this case, If someone says - I'm really attracted to this person at work and fantasize about leaving our marriage. Then what? It will cause great distress to the spouse, but with basically nothing that they can do that isn't likely to just make the odds of divorce even higher.


Fantasizing is one thing. Actually planning on doing it is another.

And yes there is something the spouse can do. They can become determined to WORK on the marriage with their partner. Maybe that is a huge wake up call for them. Maybe it's the catalyst that starts them on their path of reconciliation. Who knows. Like was pointed out earlier, each couple has to decide this thing for themselves, and because of the prevailing attitude of DON'T DO IT MAN!!!! many don't ever even consider it, or the reasons why it might be a good idea. And many never stop to consider what it says about their relationship when they don't feel that they can bring up crisis situations like this.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If there is some behavior that the spouse needs to change, then I think its better to just let them know about the behavior without the threat of leaving for another person. 

If they can't change the issue, say you are attracted to someone who is young an beautiful rather than your middle-aged wife, then what value is there in telling them. 

It of course depends on the person, and I fully believe that in some cases telling is better than not. But I think often it is a bad idea. 







Hope1964 said:


> Fantasizing is one thing. Actually planning on doing it is another.
> 
> And yes there is something the spouse can do. They can become determined to WORK on the marriage with their partner. Maybe that is a huge wake up call for them. Maybe it's the catalyst that starts them on their path of reconciliation. Who knows. Like was pointed out earlier, each couple has to decide this thing for themselves, and because of the prevailing attitude of DON'T DO IT MAN!!!! many don't ever even consider it, or the reasons why it might be a good idea. And many never stop to consider what it says about their relationship when they don't feel that they can bring up crisis situations like this.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> There is a difference noticing a woman is attractive and having primal instincts toward her.
> 
> I do notice women, but I do not think of how it would feel to have sex with them.


Gosh, this thread is still going...
The above assumes one can control one's thoughts. This is an illusion. Let me demonstrate: try not to think of a dog. Fail?
We cannot control our thoughts (or more precisely, the origins of our thoughts). We can control how we interpret them and we often lie to ourselves or tell ourselves a story why we have them or where they came from, with hindsight ("oh I thought about this because of this or that, bla bla", the brain doesn't work like this. It assumes there is this other "I" sitting in our brain, pressing buttons and being in control of what we think. There isn't another "I", it's just the brain). In my opinion, infatuation is basically uncontrolled thoughts, fuelled and propelled to life via hormones and the reason why it often gets out of control (in many cases, but not all) because of *lack of education about the subject*. Once you know about it, you can intervene and break the vicious cycle through change of behaviour. *Behaviour:* now that's something you *can* control.

In view of this, I maintain that I wouldn't want to burden my partner with any [email protected] that arises in my mind involuntarily.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I don't see is as quite the same as all of your examples.
> 
> Stock market crasy, lost job, cancer, etc all are things that have already happened and will require her to change her behavior (eg spend less money).
> 
> ...


Don't try to control the outcome, uhtred. Just be as honest and open as you can be.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I maintain that I wouldn't want to burden my partner with any [email protected] that arises in my mind *involuntarily*.


I think that word right there is the key. The OP has taken it past involuntary thoughts and thinks he needs to distance himself from his spouse as a result of this OW. Whom he has no clue about with respect to HER feelings towards HIM. He is thinking about taking action that will jeopardize his marriage here. Not only does she deserve to know why, but he needs to step up to the plate and face up to what he's doing. If he really wants to stay married.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I think that word right there is the key. The OP has taken it past involuntary thoughts and thinks he needs to distance himself from his spouse as a result of this OW. Whom he has no clue about with respect to HER feelings towards HIM. He is thinking about taking action that will jeopardize his marriage here. Not only does she deserve to know why, but he needs to step up to the plate and face up to what he's doing. If he really wants to stay married.



Yes but there's a decent probability that it's still a "fog" stage. He is telling himself a story to justify those thoughts and strong feelings. He hasn't actually crossed any lines yet and his actions how he deals with those thoughts will determine the outcome. Only HE can determine the outcome, with his actions. I don't see a contradiction there.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes but there's a decent probability that it's still a "fog" stage. He is telling himself a story to justify those thoughts and strong feelings. He hasn't actually crossed any lines yet and his actions how he deals with those thoughts will determine the outcome. Only HE can determine the outcome, with his actions. I don't see a contradiction there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exposing his feelings to his wife might clear up any fog quickly.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Yes but there's a decent probability that it's still a "fog" stage. He is telling himself a story to justify those thoughts and strong feelings. He hasn't actually crossed any lines yet and his actions how he deals with those thoughts will determine the outcome. Only HE can determine the outcome, with his actions. I don't see a contradiction there.


Well, I for one think it's better to stop a harmful action BEFORE it occurs, not after.

Whether he's crossed a line or not is pretty subjective, too. Personally, I think he has. If my husband was thinking and planning on leaving me because he had sexual feelings for some chick at work, you're dam4ed right he's crossed a line. Just like the fact my husband went to a bar to meet a hooker crossed a line. He didn't actually meet the hooker, but his intentions were clear. It took a while for him to admit to that one.

We don't know exactly how far the OP has taken things, though. And it doesn't look like we'll find out any time soon either.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think by definition, you can't stop an action "after"...you mean prevent it? I agree. And the best way to prevent it, is to educate yourself on the subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I think by definition, you can't stop an action "after"...you mean prevent it? I agree. And the best way to prevent it, is to educate yourself on the subject.


Yes, I agree - what I meant was that it's better to prevent the first occurrence and not wait till it happens once before you try to prevent more occurrences.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If your husband told you that there was a woman at work he found attractive and his mind kept drifting towards divorcing you and running off with her, how would you respond. 

Assume that if asked more he says he knows its irrational but she is young and beautiful, and it just makes him happy when she smiles or talks to him. They are co-workers, the only way he can avoid her is by changing jobs. 



Hope1964 said:


> Well, I for one think it's better to stop a harmful action BEFORE it occurs, not after.
> 
> Whether he's crossed a line or not is pretty subjective, too. Personally, I think he has. If my husband was thinking and planning on leaving me because he had sexual feelings for some chick at work, you're dam4ed right he's crossed a line. Just like the fact my husband went to a bar to meet a hooker crossed a line. He didn't actually meet the hooker, but his intentions were clear. It took a while for him to admit to that one.
> 
> We don't know exactly how far the OP has taken things, though. And it doesn't look like we'll find out any time soon either.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> If your husband told you that there was a woman at work he found attractive and his mind kept drifting towards divorcing you and running off with her, how would you respond.
> 
> Assume that if asked more he says he knows its irrational but she is young and beautiful, and it just makes him happy when she smiles or talks to him. They are co-workers, the only way he can avoid her is by changing jobs.


I'd be damned glad he talked to me about it, and we'd be dusting his resume off immediately. I wouldn't be happy, but I would definitely be relieved. He'd also be getting back into IC pronto, and we'd probably be back in MC too. And our Monday night marriage workbook date would be resurrected. And I'd probably want to scour his phone, laptop etc. to make sure he was telling me everything. I'd take it as a wake up call that we've let something slip again, and that we'd better get back to work on things to fix it without delay.

We aren't typical though. Because of what we've been through, and how we dealt with it, we're kind of unique I think.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

The one scenario I have. As I mentioned before, at times when things were off with my W I found that I paid more attention to women around me. Now keep in mind, I didn't play with fire (i.e. I wasn't suddenly going out of my way to talk to these women or looking to engage in any risky business). I wasn't looking to leave my W for any of these women. I would also never cheat on my W. I did recognize that this was more a symptom of other problems in our marriage, so my focus was on the cause. Now, if I had told my W that I was more aware of women around me, what would that really accomplish? What it would do is feed her an insecurity for no good reason, all in the name of "transparency". I could be a complete dbag and tell her this, knowing it would make her insecure, in the hopes that it would shake her up enough to act on it (all over some harmless thoughts which I would consider normal under the circumstances). 

That is why I believe there are undoubtedly times where you should be as transparent as possible with your SO, but other times where it really makes no sense, and it probably meant to cause more harm than good.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Okay, I think we are talking about power dynamics here more than transparency.
> 
> No one is forced to give into emotional blackmail. No one is entitled to a partner, either. We are all free to leave, or to set our own limits in a relationship. We do have to take responsibility for our feelings, and for our choices in the relationship, unless perhaps we have an arrangement otherwise, freely consented to by both parties. And even then, I think we are ultimately stuck with our feelings and our choices. We are the ones living with them, after all.
> 
> As to your "badgering" him, I see it more as you wanting to be heard. And when your feelings were at least somewhat acknowledged, something in you shifted. Did you become scared of losing the relationship? Did you sense you had more influence over him than you realized?


Oh I was heard all right. And it wasn't validation that shut me up. I already had that. I was determined that my feelings be also his feelings. Not proud of that, btw, but it taught me a real lesson about the value of openness.

And yes, even if I was blackmailing him, he's a free agent and could have just left me if he wanted too. Still could. I'm not saying that emotional blackmail is always successful, just that it is a weapon. And in the wrong hands "sincere feelings" can also be used as weapons. 

Not sure if this clarifies? I'll try to think of a better example ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Oh I was heard all right. And it wasn't validation that shut me up. I already had that. I was determined that my feelings be also his feelings. Not proud of that, btw, but it taught me a real lesson about the value of openness.
> 
> And yes, even if I was blackmailing him, he's a free agent and could have just left me if he wanted too. Still could. I'm not saying that emotional blackmail is always successful, just that it is a weapon. And in the wrong hands "sincere feelings" can also be used as weapons.
> 
> Not sure if this clarifies? I'll try to think of a better example ...


I guess when I think of transparency, and sincere feelings, there is vulnerability involved. I am just not sure vulnerability can be a weapon, you know?

And would he even accept to have you decide his feelings?


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> If your husband told you that there was a woman at work he found attractive and his mind kept drifting towards divorcing you and running off with her, how would you respond.
> 
> Assume that if asked more he says he knows its irrational but she is young and beautiful, and it just makes him happy when she smiles or talks to him. They are co-workers, the only way he can avoid her is by changing jobs.


I'm going to respond to this too, as my take is quite different than @Hope1964 even though I overall agree with her take on this. 

If my husband told me this, I would encourage him to pursue said young and beautiful woman. If she makes him happy, then he should be with her. If she doesn't want him? Well maybe he can find someone else who makes him happier than apparently I can.

I really don't want to stay in a relationship where I am the consolation prize. I'd rather be set free to do my own thing. That would make *me* most happy. 

This brings us back to the "soft landing" part of this thread. The keeping secrets and playing the cards close to one's chest is all about making sure you get the consolation prize if you can't get to the bonanza first place package. But who actually wants to be a consolation prize? No one. Why? Because it's signing up for a lifetime of being treated like sloppy seconds or resented for an unlived life. 

Don't you think it fair and important that someone actually knows this is their lot in life? Certainly it would help them make better sense of why they are treated the way that they are, why the attitudes, and so on that they have to put up with. 

Honestly, if I'm to be married and committed to someone, I want to know what I've actually agreed to. Is it just a business transaction? Just for kids? Just out of desperation and only until something better comes along?


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Gambling addition is closer - but I see that as different because it is already (presumably) causing actual harm, money is disappearing.


Do you not think there is harm done if a person stays with someone who doesn't love them anymore, resents them for their missed opportunities, and keeps having their head turned by other people?

I sure wouldn't want to be in a relationship like that. It would destroy me. 



uhtred said:


> There is a sense that the potentially straying spouse has done something wrong and needs to be punished by confessing. But does the righteousness of that confession outweigh the misery it would cause?
> 
> Take my case. My wive has stopped having sex with me. I watch porn. She would object if she knew. Should I confess? It would upset her, and to what gain for anyone?


It would give her greater insight into your needs, and may get her thinking along a different trajectory. Sometimes a shock is just what we need to get us out of a rut.

That isn't to say that the outcome will necessarily be favorable to your wishes or ideals, but it would at least mean that you better know and understand each other, and can make informed choices.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I guess when I think of transparency, and sincere feelings, there is vulnerability involved. I am just not sure vulnerability can be a weapon, you know?
> 
> And would he even accept to have you decide his feelings?


Vulnerability can very much be a manipulative tool. "I'd be so lost without you, whatever would I do?" "Oh, poor poor me just can't manage on my own. I need a big strong man to come and save me."

Not sure these examples are enough to really capture the kinds of scenarios I'm thinking of, but there's definitely people who draw on their vulnerability to make others feel bad and guilty .... and manipulate them into doing things they wouldn't otherwise want to do.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

wild jade said:


> Vulnerability can very much be a manipulative tool. "I'd be so lost without you, whatever would I do?" "Oh, poor poor me just can't manage on my own. I need a big strong man to come and save me."
> 
> Not sure these examples are enough to really capture the kinds of scenarios I'm thinking of, but there's definitely people who draw on their vulnerability to make others feel bad and guilty .... and manipulate them into doing things they wouldn't otherwise want to do.


OMG there sure are. I work with one. She's the kind of person who simply CANNOT survive without a MAN. Lacking one, she acts all helpless around the office so the guys will do things for her. Like yesterday she got one to change the battery in her personal vehicle out for her. While I sat up front gagging.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I'd be damned glad he talked to me about it, and we'd be dusting his resume off immediately. I wouldn't be happy, but I would definitely be relieved. He'd also be getting back into IC pronto, and we'd probably be back in MC too. And our Monday night marriage workbook date would be resurrected. And I'd probably want to scour his phone, laptop etc. to make sure he was telling me everything. I'd take it as a wake up call that we've let something slip again, and that we'd better get back to work on things to fix it without delay.
> 
> We aren't typical though. Because of what we've been through, and how we dealt with it, we're kind of unique I think.


Yes definitely unique! If that was me and I was presented with a "Monday night marriage book" one day, it would make me run away much faster! (to try and find the place, where I left my balls)
Sorry, joking aside (I am happy this methodology helped you guys btw). The thing is, normally, you can't change the way the other person feels or thinks. You can't hold their hand and guide them back into sanity. Nobody can, the person who it is happening to, has to arrive at it him/shimself. 

For practical purposes, there are two types of conversations our OP (now a hypothetical OP, because he probably had enough of this thread and went into hiding) can have with his wife:

a. "I feel we have been drifting apart from each other lately and I feel we should try and work out how we can re-connect as I worry that if we continue on this path, this marriage may not survive."

b. "I met a woman in the daycare centre and feel that I developed strong feelings towards her. I haven't spoken to her yet but feel that we have a great connection and thinking of asking her out for a coffee. What should I do about it?"

Both are honest and "transparent" conversations. I see a *big* problem with one of them. You don't?
Or alternatively, how should the OP present it to his wife, ideally?

Edit: Conversation A can only happen after OP has learnt and studied about the subject properly *himself*. Anyway, that's how I dealt with my little insanity "problem" many aeons ago.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Vulnerability can very much be a manipulative tool. "I'd be so lost without you, whatever would I do?" "Oh, poor poor me just can't manage on my own. I need a big strong man to come and save me."
> 
> Not sure these examples are enough to really capture the kinds of scenarios I'm thinking of, but there's definitely people who draw on their vulnerability to make others feel bad and guilty .... and manipulate them into doing things they wouldn't otherwise want to do.


That does not sound like vulnerability to me. It sounds like pure manipulation.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The one scenario I have. As I mentioned before, at times when things were off with my W I found that I paid more attention to women around me. Now keep in mind, I didn't play with fire (i.e. I wasn't suddenly going out of my way to talk to these women or looking to engage in any risky business). I wasn't looking to leave my W for any of these women. I would also never cheat on my W. *I did recognize that this was more a symptom of other problems in our marriage, so my focus was on the cause.* Now, if I had told my W that I was more aware of women around me, what would that really accomplish? What it would do is feed her an insecurity for no good reason, all in the name of "transparency". I could be a complete dbag and tell her this, knowing it would make her insecure, in the hopes that it would shake her up enough to act on it (all over some harmless thoughts which I would consider normal under the circumstances).
> 
> That is why I believe there are undoubtedly times where you should be as transparent as possible with your SO, but other times where it really makes no sense, and it probably meant to cause more harm than good.


Agreed. What I would be keen to know is what exactly made you realise that this (see bolded) was a symptom and not a valid activity worth pursuing.
You can reason about it now, with hindsight, but the major problem for most people who this kind of thing happens to, don't realise *why* it is happening to them so they have no idea how to handle it. If they follow their gut, they will more likely than not do the exact opposite thing of what they should be doing. I guess it didn't progress far enough with you. Many are not so lucky.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> That does not sound like vulnerability to me. It sounds like pure manipulation.


Ultimately, you may be right. But it is difficult to tell the difference sometimes. The vulnerability is often sincere enough, at least in some respects. But it is also a shield to avoid examining deeper issues. And a weapon to get others to comply. 

If you assume people are self-aware, well-grounded, and not really acting out of selfish interest, but out of an honest effort for fair dealing and truthfulness, then that's one thing. 

But we all have our agendas and preferences, and are to greater and lesser degrees flawed and messed up. And in those cases, sincere emotions are also attempts to control the situation and use others to make ourselves feel better. To be so evolved as to completely let go of the outcome and engage always with truth ... well, it may be a worthy goal, but it sure is difficult.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Ultimately, you may be right. But it is difficult to tell the difference sometimes. The vulnerability is often sincere enough, at least in some respects. But it is also a shield to avoid examining deeper issues. And a weapon to get others to comply.
> 
> If you assume people are self-aware, well-grounded, and not really acting out of selfish interest, but out of an honest effort for fair dealing and truthfulness, then that's one thing.
> 
> But we all have our agendas and preferences, and are to greater and lesser degrees flawed and messed up. And in those cases, sincere emotions are also attempts to control the situation and use others to make ourselves feel better. To be so evolved as to completely let go of the outcome and engage always with truth ... well, it may be a worthy goal, but it sure is difficult.


Yes, definitely worthwhile. 

I don't think transparency and vulnerability have anything to do with manipulation or coercion, and certainly not hiding or avoiding. Sharing one's heart simply and purely without making demands or having expectations is part of the beauty and liberation of vulnerability. Maybe we ultimately do it as much for our own consciences as for the health of the relationship.

Another thing: *both* spouses need to be transparent. If one partner thinks he or she may be being manipulated by the other, he or she must speak up. There must be a free and open exchange. 

And, as we seem to agree, both partners must accept that neither is entitled to the other. The preservation of the marriage cannot take top priority. Honest exchanges may result in the dissolution of the relationship. It is helpful if it is seen as a liberation rather than a punishment.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Telling the wife is not a good idea. I know if my H told me he was interested in another woman at work rather than tell me there are problems in the marriage and we ought to work on them. I would do nothing to make things better. If that was his first concern (another woman) then it would not be worth my time to work on the marriage, I would let him go and tell him not to come back, period. I would then do everything in my power to protect myself and my kids and move on.
You must remember love is not an adjective, it is a verb. A great quote from Stephen Covey

“My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can i do?"
"The feeling isn't there anymore?" I asked.
"That's right," he reaffirmed. "And we have three children we're really concerned about. What do you suggest?"
"love her," I replied.
"I told you, the feeling just isn't there anymore."
"Love her."
"You don't understand. the feeling of love just isn't there."
"Then love her. If the feeling isn't there, that's a good reason to love her."
"But how do you love when you don't love?" 
"My friend , love is a verb. Love - the feeling - is a fruit of love, the verb. So love her. Serve her. Sacrifice. Listen to her. Empathize. Appreciate. Affirm her. Are you willing to do that?”

OP are you willing to do this? Marriage is not for you to have your needs met, it is for you to meet the needs of your spouse. If you shifted your thinking then maybe your marriage would improve.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Agreed. What I would be keen to know is what exactly made you realise that this (see bolded) was a symptom and not a valid activity worth pursuing.
> You can reason about it now, with hindsight, but the major problem for most people who this kind of thing happens to, don't realise *why* it is happening to them so they have no idea how to handle it. If they follow their gut, they will more likely than not do the exact opposite thing of what they should be doing. I guess it didn't progress far enough with you. Many are not so lucky.


Well, I definitely understand the appeal of getting lost in a fantasy, the whole grass is greener on the other side thought. I guess I am just not willing to throw away my marriage or family based on a fantasy. That thought is enough for me to sit back and at least try to figure out why exactly these thoughts are going through my head. I am sure it helps a bit as well that I have probably soured a bit towards women (in terms of having a relationship with), so the idea (even if a fantasy) of a relationship with another woman does lose some appeal (probably sounds stupid lol).


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I am sure it helps a bit as well that I have probably soured a bit towards women (in terms of having a relationship with),"

I'm so sorry, Ellis.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> Telling the wife is not a good idea. I know if my H told me he was interested in another woman at work rather than tell me there are problems in the marriage and we ought to work on them. I would do nothing to make things better. If that was his first concern (another woman) then it would not be worth my time to work on the marriage, I would let him go and tell him not to come back, period. I would then do everything in my power to protect myself and my kids and move on.
> You must remember love is not an adjective, it is a verb. A great quote from Stephen Covey
> 
> “My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can i do?"
> ...


I love that passage from Stephen Covey, aine, and have posted it here myself. I don't think it contradicts being transparent with a spouse. People can share their feelings and still commit to loving each other, if that is the wisest path for them.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jasontrents said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This post is going to look terrible but I can't help my feeling and have no where else to turn other than the web. Hoping others have been in this position before.
> 
> ...


Haven't read other responses and responding directly to this post.

Pull your head out of your ass please.

Once extracted, you will see and hear far more clearly.

You lack understanding.

Having been with my wife over 25 years, married 21, I have had unremembered numbers of women come on to me or otherwise express attraction. In some cases the feelings were mutual.

In some cases my marriage was in a very low place while the attraction was occurring.

You need to get your head in the game about your marriage and your family.

A marriage is definitely like a garden and what you get out of it depends on how you tend it and what you plant.

You can fall more deeply in love and lust than you can imagine with your wife if you put the work into it and she does too.

It is clear that your love for her is diminished if not gone already from the way you're talking but it isn't too late to start reviving it.

Men weather storms and hold strong. Boys run to their mothers or surrogates to make them feel better.

Your children need a man right now and so does the woman you made those children with.

You need to work on yourself and improve to improve your marriage.

The damage you are contemplating causing will not be worth it.

There have been several women that I was more compatible with over the course of my marriage to Mrs. Conan. I took vows with her and committed to her and raised children with her.

The integrity, dignity and, yes, love of our marriage is too precious a thing to treat shamefully and with disregard.

I have fallen out of love and lust with Mrs. Conan during our marriage and prayed, sweated and bled to get them back.

Do not let a low in your life and marriage convince you it isn't worth investing in anymore.

Stop taking each other for granted and read marriage/sex books together as well as going to counseling.

Nuff said.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

aine said:


> Telling the wife is not a good idea. I know if my H told me he was interested in another woman at work rather than tell me there are problems in the marriage and we ought to work on them. I would do nothing to make things better. If that was his first concern (another woman) then it would not be worth my time to work on the marriage, I would let him go and tell him not to come back, period. I would then do everything in my power to protect myself and my kids and move on.
> You must remember love is not an adjective, it is a verb. A great quote from Stephen Covey
> 
> “My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can i do?"
> ...


This is a fantastic post!

I only slightly disagree with the first part.

Mrs. Conan and I are working through the single most destructive year of our marriage and at an all time low, I ran into a coworker that I had an instant, irrational attraction to and it was mutual.

Talking to her in the first couple of days, at work, I found her to be extremely compatible with me as well.

I was not in a good place to talk to my wife about it so I talked to a couple we are very close with to help me through it.

I worked hard on my marriage and "loved" Mrs. Conan until we were in a better place and then talked to her about my coworker.

I did not pursue or intend to pursue my coworker and that is a major difference between me and the OP.

I just needed my best friend to know what was going on with me. We are very transparent with each other and it drastically improves intimacy!

Our marriage has improved by leaps in the last month.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> "I am sure it helps a bit as well that I have probably soured a bit towards women (in terms of having a relationship with),"
> 
> I'm so sorry, Ellis.


It isn't as bad as it sounds, plenty of people have dealt with significantly worse issues then I have. Soured some (which I guess for someone who is generally optimistic may be saying a lot), but not completely :smile2:


----------



## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

AND .... we're talking amongst ourselves. OP nowhere to be found. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, definitely worthwhile.
> 
> I don't think transparency and vulnerability have anything to do with manipulation or coercion, and certainly not hiding or avoiding. Sharing one's heart simply and purely without making demands or having expectations is part of the beauty and liberation of vulnerability. Maybe we ultimately do it as much for our own consciences as for the health of the relationship.
> 
> ...


Problem is that people aren't really pure and simple and without expectations. If they were, then vulnerability and transparency wouldn't be a problem at all. Not even difficult.

Otherwise I pretty much agree. If one side is going to be transparent and vulnerable, the other side has to be too. Or it will be a power play. And sometimes it is much better for both parties to simply dissolve a marriage than to fight for. It may hurt in the short term, but the long term outcome can be much better.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Problem is that people aren't really pure and simple and without expectations. If they were, then vulnerability and transparency wouldn't be a problem at all. Not even difficult.
> 
> Otherwise I pretty much agree. If one side is going to be transparent and vulnerable, the other side has to be too. Or it will be a power play. And sometimes it is much better for both parties to simply dissolve a marriage than to fight for. It may hurt in the short term, but the long term outcome can be much better.


Well, I will just say that I decided from the outset with my husband that I was going to be transparent with him. If he could not handle it, I was fine with losing the relationship. I just was not going to be in a relationship not based on openness and honesty. Way too much work, and not worth it to me.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Well, I will just say that I decided from the outset with my husband that I was going to be transparent with him. If he could not handle it, I was fine with losing the relationship. I just was not going to be in a relationship not based on openness and honesty. Way too much work, and not worth it to me.


I'm with you on that. I wouldn't necessarily say that I am "transparent", but I've little time for games and lies. And wouldn't waste my time with a guy who was like that either.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> This is a fantastic post!
> 
> I only slightly disagree with the first part.
> 
> ...


Conan, I get where you are coming from. My point is that the OP seems focused on himself and what he wants. The wife will know this. It is very different from a man who genuinely is struggling but wants to do the right thing by his wife and his marriage. THe OP sounds like he is only all about him and although there is problems in the marriage, seems to think that he himself is not the one at fault, it is all the wife's fault.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

aine said:


> Conan, I get where you are coming from. My point is that the OP seems focused on himself and what he wants. The wife will know this. It is very different from a man who genuinely is struggling but wants to do the right thing by his wife and his marriage. THe OP sounds like he is only all about him and although there is problems in the marriage, seems to think that he himself is not the one at fault, it is all the wife's fault.


Agreed.

BTW, where's Waldo?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Agreed.
> 
> BTW, where's Waldo?


Could be just writing his thoughts down and getting some feedback was enough to at least get his head out of the fog. Sometimes that is all it takes.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> Could be just writing his thoughts down and getting some feedback was enough to at least get his head out of the fog. Sometimes that is all it takes.




Or he's spending his free time with Ms Daycare instead of posting her.


----------

