# For your discussion: People who get cheated on are generally just way to "nice".



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

First let me say I am not posting this to be mean or kick people when they are down, I am trying to point out a pattern that may change some folks thinking. So doing some reading on SI (since I have nothing to do but sit home) I have decided to court controversy once again. My contention is most people who brutally cheated on just seem way to "nice" (which is one way to put it) and put up with way too much. Some of the stories and what these folks are willing to put up with, how they are willing to be treated just reaffirms my believe that this non-confrontational and at times timid nature is part of what drew the type of person who would cheat right to them in the first place.

I just think more often then not when you are talking about serial cheaters and long term affairs, someone who is assertive with a good sense of self worth would have called them out on their ******** as to never get to the point where they would marry these types in the first place. Being married to someone who gets caught up in an office affair, or a drunken ONS that happens. But someone who is a serial cheater, or who has a blatant sexual affair and acts like they are still single, that is something different. Sure people can be fooled but in hearing stories you wonder if their were not people around thinking, that person is not someone anyone should marry.

There is a post on the WW side now from a women who cheated for 4 years with a younger man, brought him to their house, left at night to go out and bang him in his car. 4 years of that. Her contention is that she would never disrespect her husband and would take a bullet for him. Truth is her husband meant about as much to her is some dirt on her shoes. Which is the worst kind of disrespect. When you read these types of posts you realize that these people don't have any idea what love is. Love to them is a desire to be with a person. It's not active it reactive. It's all about how they feel, their whole life is about how whatever it is makes them feel. Yet her husband probably will stay.

But if that is going to be the case just once I would like one of these husbands or wives to say "so you say it's just sex and meant nothing, had nothing to do with me also you would take a bullet for me right? OK then time to take that bullet. For the rest of our marriage I am free to have sex with whoever I want, but you have forfeited that right. I am free to take trips to Vegas and Amsterdam, go on kink sites. I promise I will not be in your face about it, you will never even know, but since in your mind it's just sex and it means nothing then that isn't really a big bullet to take. Your bullet is not having sex with someone else but hell I suspect a few years of having my fun and I may not even care anymore and you can do as you please." I suspect the whole it's just sex, it means nothing thing would change real quick, but that should always be the answer to that, "if it means nothing to you then you should have no problem with me having sex with whoever I want, oh and it means something to me so you can't". We all know that will never go over. But this is my point about being nice, that is where my head goes, but I am just not nice. Actually my head goes to many worse places.

The other thing is he like may others who persist with these types of people operate from the mistaken belief that marriage vows ever meant anything to their cheating spouses to begin with. Like somehow this was a blip and really they miss and morning the braking of the holy sanctity of marriage which at one time was such a cherished thing to them. ********. The truth is those were some words the cheating spouse said because at the time it was convenient to what they wanted in life. When she was board or feeling down on herself and the words were less convenient they were quickly forgotten. I makes no sense to mourn the loss of your partners fidelity because you never really had it to begin with. They were playing nice until it got to hard for them, but in their mind it has always been their body and their sexuality to do with as they pleased, vows or not. Nothing changed for them. My point is what is it really you are morning and holding on to? Not something that your cheating spouse ever cared about. They care about it like lying on their taxes or drivers test. It's a means to an end. Which is why it's not a smart to onesidedly hold on to something that only you have ever put any value into. They don't care about it and they don't get it, and they never will.

There is another post by a guy whose wife is morning her affair partner, a guy who also had an affair with her married sister before he. That guy would do better to cut his arm off with a rusty pen knife and take his chances, in the long run he would have a much better life. Again what is the loss here besides having to face the unknown.

These examples to me just show my overall point, the willingness to stay with people who very much actively disdain you is really a consistent hallmark of many of the posters at least the ones who stay together. I'm sorry but I think this is a symptom of the problem. Yes the problem. You are never going to have a good marriage or life if you continue to associate with people who treat you with contempt. Sorry folks it's not possible, and I sure as hell don't believe it. Can you run out the clock and survive? Sure but that is not a good strategy for a happy life. In fact if you are willing to put up with people like that they will flock to you. The saying is true, you show people how to treat you.

Thoughts?


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

> My contention is most people who brutally cheated on just seem way to "nice" (which is one way to put it) *a**nd put up with way too much. Some of the stories and what these folks are willing to put up with, how they are willing to be treated just reaffirms my believe* that this non-confrontational and at times timid nature is part of what drew the type of person who would cheat right to them in the first place.


I was thinking the same the past few days. I started perusing infidelity sites in November 2017. It was on this site actually that I read my first story. A guy named BFF or something. His wife was screwing his best friend for years. To this day, it's the story that bothers me the most and I've read hundreds. Perhaps it's because it was the first. I don't know.

I'm still waiting for the betrayed husband to come back and say his best friend and x-wife, divorced, lost there jobs, filed bankruptcy, lost there home through foreclosure and caught corona-virus for good measure. I don't want them to die, but I do look forward to them feeling long lasting pain.

Back to your topic. There are three major things that have blown me away since I first began reading here and elsewhere.

1) Infidelity is rampant. Rich and old, black and white, men and women, old and young, rich and poor, attractive and ugly, fat and skinny, educated and uneducated. None of these things matter, but there emotional fragility or brokenness.

2) I never realize how easy some women were. Understand, I've been with many, many, women. AND I STILL DIDN'T KNOW the ease of which some women can remove there clothes for attention and a smile. Some are willing to risk everything. I ALREADY KNEW SOME MEN WERE ALREADY LIKE THAT. I'm kind of glad I didn't know.

3) The shocker that trumps both previous points is the toleration of those who were cheated on. I can't speak for women. I can only speak for men, as I'm one. As stated previously, before marriage I was cheated on twice by two fiance's. Had been with both for 4-5 years. Both had less than zero chance of remaining engaged with me. Literally none.

I grew up in a very traditonal household. It was healthy and strong with two great parents. However, when I was a teenager, my dad, somehow messed up some money, and disappeared for 6-8 weeks leaving us without power in the middle of winter, Christmas included. I begged my mom to divorce him. After two weeks passed, I had enough and began asking her EVERY SINGLE DAY. I love my dad. He was an excellent father.

However, he financially betrayed me, my brother and my mom, so he had to go as far as I was concerned. My mom stayed, and we lived happily ever after. In looking back, I'd have recommended the same thing to my mom today. I eventually cornered him at his job and asked wtf is going on and wtf are you going to do about this situation, other than avoid us. 

Anyway, I say that to paint a picture on how I view betrayal. It is simply intolerable for me. So to read how some can stay while their spouses are not only emotionally and physically betraying them, but may have also told them, showed them or both, that they don't want them.

The moment I get a hint,someone not wanting me, that's pretty much it. They don't even have to tell me. If they showed me, I believe them. Neither of my fiance's told me. They didn't have to though. Ironically, both pursued me vigorously for YEARS afterward. I was never close to reconsidering them, let alone reconciling.

I do think it's the worst of two situations converging. A betrayed person who's nice and and a cheating spouse who doesn't care, is very, very, very cruel situation to read. It's literally, a wolf in the presence of a sheep, or better perhaps, a wounded animal. Wolves don't care.

They only know to kill. Cheating spouses aren't always like that, but when in the affair, they become that and for a nice guy, or female, they're just speed bumps in the way of getting what they want.

It's a horrific convergence of opposite emotions. The WS is drunk with confidence and limerence and the BS with lost confidence, downtrodden and completely vulnerable to an opponent that seeks to exploit them to the utmost degree.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I don't think it's a convergence. I think it's symbiotic. I think both personality types feed into each other, it's like a parasitic relationship. There is a book called human magnet syndrome that talks about this. 

The worst one I have seen was a women on another site who had had battled cancer with her husband's help for years. They had two small children and finally she beat it, but then met some guy online, eventually she flew over seas to spend a week with him telling her husband she was going with her girlfriend as a celebration for beating cancer. It didn't work out and she started to have regrets the second day, but he still spent the week. 

Imagine what it takes to plan, get your friend to lie, and then spend a week with your boyfriend while the father of your kids stays home and watches them. The guy who just took care of you and helped you beat cancer Talk about a total **** you to him. That is still the most messed up evil things I have ever read. These were church going people too as that was a lot of what she talked about in her threads, so you know that guy was going to do everything he could not to get divorced. Guilt lead her to post and then finally confess but of course she dropped off right afterwards. Maybe it was fake. I hope it was but I often wonder if she ended up getting sick again after doing so much damage. She got her body back from cancer and proceeded to throw away her soul and that will be much harder to beat then cancer. I wonder if she did get sick did he help her again and though he may never admit if some small part of him didn't care anymore. 

There is some guy on here whose girlfriend cheated on him with his friend. But he dumped her met another women and now has a small child. He is much happier and posts every once and a while. Which is another thing about this. The only way it truly goes away is if you end the relationship and start a new one, but it truly does go away. There are scars but no pain. The people who say it never goes away are the unfortunate souls who choose to spend the rest of their lives trying to recreate what they thought they had with a person who probably betrayed them worse then anyone else in their lives. Yeah if you do that then I can guarantee you it's not going to go away.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I would rarely encourage someone to go back to a known cheater.
When someone cheats - it’s who they are deep down... and it nearly impossible to make them become a faithful person.

I’m convinced - you either are a person who cheats or you just don’t. When these husbands say “oh my wife would never cheat” they always end up being the cheater... and I have to wonder if they have been cheating the whole marriage? Maybe... and maybe the husband just got around to noticing something wasn’t right. Plus all those cheaters are cheating with someone - so it’s usually women who are looking for attention... sadly, it doesn’t take much to swoon a gal who is seeking attention.

and a lot of times spouses just miss the warning signs. There’s usually telling signs... they just miss them.

but I do agree and have thought many times that the ones that are nice get walked all over... and the men -it always those men who hold the wife on a super high pedestal. 🙄

and then there’s the wives that don’t work... and cheat. Come on, you live a life without working and you cheat because you’re bored or have time on your hands? Give me a break! Go to work! Earn money! Do something productive! And then the husband is all worried about having the cheating wife go back to work! 😳🙄

I’ve learned -don’t be so nice that people think you won’t give consequences for bad behavior. Every relationship should end when one half is being mistreated. And yes, cheating is TOTALLY mistreating a spouse.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The only flaw in your be argument is that we only hear of nice people who get cheated on, not on nice people who do not get cheated on.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

sokillme said:


> There is a post on the WW side now from a women who cheated for 4 years with a younger man, brought him to their house, left at night to go out and bang him in his car. 4 years of that. Her contention is that she would never disrespect her husband and would take a bullet for him. Truth is her husband meant about as much to her is some dirt on her shoes.


You mind sharing this thread? Nevermind I think I found it.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

sokillme said:


> The only way it truly goes away is if you end the relationship and start a new one, but it truly does go away.


It can truly go to the "scars but no pain" even if you don't start a new relationship. People should worry about themselves, not need others as a crutch to get them through life. They should understand how wanting a partner is quite different than needing one.

Being "nice" sometimes occurs because people are not self-sufficient.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You are pretty handy with that rusty pen knife. (I still have those, guns are in lockup until there is resolution) Off the top of my head your theory reeks of victim blaming and you probably have your cause and effect floped.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

First off, for the most part, cheating is about the cheater and how F'ed up they are and that's why they cheat. Not because their partner is "too nice".

As for what the BS does afterwards (which seems to be what you're post is dealing with), in my humble opinion it has NOTHING to do with them being "too nice".

What keeps a BS around is the same thing that keeps people from doing (or not doing things they should do in life) and that's FEAR!!

Their fear is stronger than taking action.

It's as simple as that.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

What I noticed is that the couples who have boundaries and enforce them have fewer problems, like straying. I have noticed that these women will not just drop the fact that you called their husband instead of them and so forth. I wish I had started off that way.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I wasn't "nice". Maybe that is why it was easier for me to do what needed to be done when I found my STBXW cheating


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I wouldn’t consider myself “nice” but I definitely am a fixer. For decades I thought I could fix my husband. That never worked.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

People cheat for all kinds of reasons. Most of them have nothing at all to do with the marriage no matter what they might claim.

However, there are people that cheat repeatedly, or the cheating is actually a symptom of a psychological disorder. For example, one symptom of BPD is actually to cheat, be promiscuous, and other risky behaviour. It's also to be manipulative and emotionally abusive.

For people with disorders like this, there is lots of literature describing how they choose their partner/victims. Agreeableness and high sensitivity are among the traits they look for, because it makes them both highly manipulable, but also inflicts a lot of pain - which is many times the high they are looking for, because it validates them.

That is not every cheater, but it could lead one to the conclusion that being nice to your partner leads to cheating, which it doesn't. For those with things like BPD, they select easily manipulated and hurt partners, and then abuse them. The niceness doesn't cause it, it was why you were selected to begin with.

And, having likely been with one of those kind of people, once you get a backbone, they just walk away because you're going to make things hard and no longer offer the emotional payoff.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I think the cheating is more about the cheater. For men, it seems to be more about the sexual gratification, the innate desire to spread seed biologically results in sometimes doing just that.

For women, it's usually about self esteem. If they lack healthy self esteem, it's hard for their partner to fill that hole, no matter what their marriage is like. Some are more successful than others. But typically a woman is wooed by an AP that makes them feel worthy/sexy/desirable/etc. And some women are too weak to reject those advances or don't have the strict boundaries.

I feel that 80-90% of the stories on here, and I've been on here for 9 years (gulp), fall into these two categories. 

Instead, I would argue that the "nice guy" is more apt to ACCEPT cheating and forgive it. And/or be subject to a 2nd round of cheating because they allowed the first one. I do not think this is the same thing as being cheated on in the first place.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Codependency.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> People cheat for all kinds of reasons. Most of them have nothing at all to do with the marriage no matter what they might claim.
> 
> However, there are people that cheat repeatedly, or the cheating is actually a symptom of a psychological disorder. For example, one symptom of BPD is actually to cheat, be promiscuous, and other risky behaviour. It's also to be manipulative and emotionally abusive.
> 
> ...


My contention is most of these types of people who cheat do have some sort of mental illness , which makes them an terrible risk. But also there is some dysfunction that allows people or even compels people to hold onto folks who treat them like crap.

But that begs the question is there really any purpose to sites like this when it comes to infidelity specifically serial infidelity? I have been on here 5 years and my answer would be most of the time no. People's decision is already made up when they post and it's pretty easy to tell. Staying in the marriage or leaving is almost predetermined before the fact. But that also leads me to believe like my original premise that people who are in marriage with serial cheaters are usually the type of people who stay and that is exactly what drew them to a serial cheater in the first place and more so vice versa. In fact the type of person that burns it to the grown so to speak isn't going to need to post on these sites. It's a weighted sample group to begin with.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I didn't go wrong by being "too nice", or even "nice". Being a lazy, oblivious, asshole with no boundaries and purposely ignoring red flags, sure. But "nice"? Nah.

Assholes, nice guys, and everything in between get cheated on. Cheating is more about the WS than the BS. You were cheated on, where you "just way too nice"?

But good job victim-blaming 🙄

Your post doesn't really seem to be about BS actually being cheated on, but whether they decide to R or D.

There are fear-based people and action-based people.

Fear-based people may stay in a ****ty marriage because they fear the repercussions of leaving. Will they be alone forever? Will they ever see their kids? Will they be poor? Will they lose friends? Will it be a scandal? Etc. They are too scared to make a move.
Action-based people may stay in a ****ty marriage and work on it until it's no longer ****ty because they have an end goal in mind. They want to work on the problems in the marriage and fix them, or they want to raise their children as a family unit, etc. The latter is not the same thing as "staying for the kids". It is a goal to work towards, a motivation - not a fear.
The fear-based person just wants to avoid negative repercussions. They will stay in an unhappy marriage, chances are nothing will change, and they will put up with it to avoid their fears of the unknown. The action-based person sets their eyes on a goal and works towards that, whether that is R or D. They have a better shot of a happy future, whether they choose R or D. Most people are naturally fear-based.

Some people stop and ponder on if their life will be better off with or without their WS in it. That is something that _a lot _of thought should be put into, IMO.

As someone who, thus far, continues to choose R... I really don't care if another BS chooses to R or D. It's not my life and I don't have to live with whatever decisions they make. That being said, I think many couples (or individuals) have no business going the R route and should D instead. For some couples, R was the right choice. For some, it's the wrong choice and fails in one way or another. For me, 18 months in, I _still_ don't know and I still go back and forth all the time.



sokillme said:


> But if that is going to be the case just once I would like one of these husbands or wives to say "so you say it's just sex and meant nothing, had nothing to do with me also you would take a bullet for me right? OK then time to take that bullet. For the rest of our marriage I am free to have sex with whoever I want, but you have forfeited that right. I am free to take trips to Vegas and Amsterdam, go on kink sites. I promise I will not be in your face about it, you will never even know, but since in your mind it's just sex and it means nothing then that isn't really a big bullet to take. Your bullet is not having sex with someone else but hell I suspect a few years of having my fun and I may not even care anymore and you can do as you please." I suspect the whole it's just sex, it means nothing thing would change real quick, but that should always be the answer to that, "if it means nothing to you then you should have no problem with me having sex with whoever I want, oh and it means something to me so you can't". We all know that will never go over. But this is my point about being nice, that is where my head goes, but I am just not nice. Actually my head goes to many worse places.


Well, that wouldn't be a true reconciliation and marriage then, now would it? Two wrongs do not make a right. There is no point for a couple to go through the grueling process of R if they are just going to play "and eye for an eye" or tit for tat. I understand that the BS is hurt, and that you think we should all want revenge for the rest of our lives, but that's not the point of R. Whether a BS chooses R or D they need to move the bleep on. They can choose to do that together (R) or alone (D), but either way they need to move past it.

After my wife's affairs, I took the RA "if you can sleep with two people, so can I" route. I have talked to other people who had RA's and the one thing in common is that they ALL regret it. Sure, it gave my wife a taste (albeit a small one) of her own medicine. Yes, it helped her understand my feelings a bit better because she felt (and continues to feel) _some_ of it too. And yeah, I felt like I evened the score a little bit.

BUT, it also dropped me to her level. It left me with regrets. It left me feeling a lot of shame, and after everything she did... I shouldn't be feeling that! It adds _another_ layer of crap to deal with and no one going through R says "You know what... what we _really_ need is MORE stuff to deal with!". When it came time to deal with my RA's and some recent boundary crossing, which we still haven't done to completion, I felt like total **** and hated feeling everything turned to me when what she did was so horrible. But it _has_ to be done and _has_ to be dealt with even though neither of us wants to.

Maybe you would argue that you weren't talking about RA's. You were talking about a one-sided open marriage for revenge purposes, and yes, that's what it is. Is that _really _any better or different? I don't think so.

If someone chooses to R they don't say _"so you say it's just sex and meant nothing, had nothing to do with me also you would take a bullet for me right? OK then time to take that bullet ...."_ because that does not line up with R. Maybe they are "just weak", OR maybe the BS is a better person and are unwilling to stoop to the level of the WS.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobert said:


> I didn't go wrong by being "too nice", or even "nice". Being a lazy, oblivious, asshole with no boundaries and purposely ignoring red flags, sure. But "nice"? Nah.
> 
> Assholes, nice guys, and everything in between get cheated on. Cheating is more about the WS than the BS. You were cheated on, where you "just way too nice"?
> 
> ...


The idea that there is even such a thing as Revenge Affair is preposterous as how is it revenge when the scope is nothing even close to the initial affair because the fidelity of the relationship is already broken. Personally I don't believe the marriage exists after the affair as the marriage contract is broken anyway. Marriage is the only contract where some misguided people have the expectation that one party continue to follow it when the other has broken it, and that is straight up ********. (Really liking the more liberal Profanity Filter by the way. One benefit from the new layout.)

Also it's not about victim blaming but seeing patterns and lack of boundaries.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> My contention is most of these types of people who cheat do have some sort of mental illness , which makes them an terrible risk. But also there is some dysfunction that allows people or even compels people to hold onto folks who treat them like crap.


Potentially, but I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so I cannot say. One wrinkle I will say that I'm sure about is that one can have BPD behaviours but not be BPD - for example, it's fairly common for people to act out their PTSD by using BPD coping mechanisms to do so. The problem in those cases might be PTSD and not BPD.

Or they might not have something like BPD at all. They might just be ****ty people. I mean, lots of people lack integrity. And if you lack integrity, it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to talking yourself into doing all kinds of fraudulent things. For example, I've found that with most people I know that have cheated, they have also done things like lied on their taxes, stolen money from their business or hid it from their spouse, or have been intentionally misleading about things like vacations away from their spouse - even if it had absolutely nothing to do with cheating.

I mean, I remember reading an article a few years ago (I don't have the reference handy, sorry) about a woman that cheated on her husband while on a girl's trip, came home, and confessed it to her husband - and was shocked at how hurt he was, and how their marriage almost ended because of it. And it ended with her saying she would never cheat again - but not because she had learned anything. She claimed she would never cheat again because of how hard it had made her life. She claimed not to know why she cheated, and claimed to be surprised by the result. To me, that's not necessarily pathological, it's just a lack of integrity and introspection - even caring to understand. And, obviously, she'll eventually come upon a solution that allows her to continue to cheat without ever considering why - just don't tell the husband next time.

Here's a really, really good article on how cheaters rationalize - from Scientific American nonetheless. No Esther Perel headgame nonsense here:



> .... cheaters might minimize the significance of their infidelity as a way to cope with knowing they did something wrong. The authors of a new study published in the _Journal of Social and Personal Relationships_ propose that cheaters feel bad about their indiscretions, but try to feel better by reframing their past infidelities as uncharacteristic or out-of-the-ordinary behavior.











Cheaters Use Cognitive Tricks to Rationalize Infidelity


Subjects experience discomfort about unfaithful thoughts and behaviors but downplay it and minimize its relevance to their sense of self




www.scientificamerican.com







> But that begs the question is there really any purpose to sites like this when it comes to infidelity specifically serial infidelity? I have been on here 5 years and my answer would be most of the time no. People's decision is already made up when they post and it's pretty easy to tell. Staying in the marriage or leaving is almost predetermined before the fact. But that also leads me to believe like my original premise that people who are in marriage with serial cheaters are usually the type of people who stay and that is exactly what drew them to a serial cheater in the first place and more so vice versa. In fact the type of person that burns it to the grown so to speak isn't going to need to post on these sites. It's a weighted sample group to begin with.


My view on these kinds of things is to give advice I wish someone had given me: leave. Why I should leave, how I should leave, and that leaving wasn't a lack of integrity on my part - it was a response to a lack of integrity on her part.

See, I think lots of people are trapped in ways that I was: I made a _commitment_, therefore I should _try to make it work no matter what._ And that's an erroneous bit of logic for obvious reasons if you sit back and examine it. Which is really hard to do in the moment.

The other thing I think more people need to hear while they're going through it is that there's light at the end of the tunnel - that by leaving, they can often be much, much happier. And by staying, they will need to give up their integrity by essentially agreeing to an open marriage - whether tacitly or explicitly. And many (if not most) attempts at reconciliation are false - and even more traumatic to go through than just leaving. I spent some serious time talking to cheaters and therapists about that, and even hung out on the /adultery subreddit for a while, watching cheaters coach each other on how to fake reconciliations.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> The idea that there is even such a thing as Revenge Affair is preposterous as how is it revenge when the scope is nothing even close to the initial affair because the fidelity of the relationship is already broken. Personally I don't believe the marriage exists after the affair as the marriage contract is broken anyway. Marriage is the only contract where some misguided people have the expectation that one party continue to follow it when the other has broken it, and that is straight up ********. (Really liking the more liberal Profanity Filter by the way. One benefit from the new layout.)
> 
> Also it's not about victim blaming but seeing patterns and lack of boundaries.


Revenge affairs only seem to hurt the betrayed spouse even more. I mean, it might feel like you're balancing things, but long term it seems to really mess things up.

One thing I have and do sometimes recommend is to say "Ok cheating spouse, if you really want to reconcile, you have to commit to being monogamous with me, but I get to sleep with other people for X amount of time."

Not to actually do it - to test if they actually want to reconcile. The vast majority of time, the cheater will not agree to it under these conditions... _even though it's exactly what they themselves did, only without the honesty._ Even when they claim to want to do anything to make it up to their spouse, they won't do that.

Which exposes the whole thing as a total fraud. It's like saying you stole the money and don't want to go to jail, but also don't want to have to give it back. It's still having your cake and eat it too.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

No such thing as Revenge Affair. Once someone cheats I'm free to **** and date whoever I want. The marriage is void from that point on.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Some people believe that those who are too trusting get cheated on.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

sokillme said:


> The idea that there is even such a thing as Revenge Affair is preposterous as how is it revenge when the scope is nothing even close to the initial affair because the fidelity of the relationship is already broken. Personally I don't believe the marriage exists after the affair as the marriage contract is broken anyway. Marriage is the only contract where some misguided people have the expectation that one party continue to follow it when the other has broken it, and that is straight up ********. (Really liking the more liberal Profanity Filter by the way. One benefit from the new layout.)
> 
> Also it's not about victim blaming but seeing patterns and lack of boundaries.


Most of the time I do not refer to what I did as RA's, but I did here for the sake of keeping things clear. But let's look at the definition of revenge. 

*Revenge:
1: to avenge (oneself or another) usually by retaliating in kind or degree*
_*2: to inflict injury in return for
3: a desire for vengeance or retribution
4: an act or instance of retaliating in order to get even*_
*5: an opportunity for satisfaction*

When I was deciding whether I'd put myself in a situation to sleep with someone else, I made a list of reasons (justifications) on why I should and could do it. I still have that saved on my phone. 



> I want to hurt her.
> She deserves to be hurt in the same way she hurt me.
> I want her to hurt the same way she hurt me.
> I want her to feel the same pain I do.
> ...


How is that _not _revenge? You could argue that it's not an affair, but whether or not it was "revenge"? I don't think there is much room for debate there. I did it to hurt her and the first "OW" I slept with was chosen specifically to make it hurt more. One does not have to do something to a worse degree for it to be revenge. 

In the period between D-Day and deciding to R or D, it is debatable whether sex with someone else is an affair. _However_, once a couple decides to R, then how is it not an affair? At that point, there is a new agreement, new commitment, and sometimes even a renewing of the "contract". 



Marduk said:


> One thing I have and do sometimes recommend is to say "Ok cheating spouse, if you really want to reconcile, you have to commit to being monogamous with me, but I get to sleep with other people for X amount of time."
> 
> Not to actually do it - to test if they actually want to reconcile. The vast majority of time, the cheater will not agree to it under these conditions... _even thought it's exactly what they themselves did, only without the honesty._ Even when they claim to want to do anything to make it up to their spouse, they won't do that.
> 
> Which exposes the whole thing as a total fraud. It's like saying you stole the money and don't want to go to jail, but also don't want to have to give it back. It's still having your cake and eat it too.


I disagree with this proving a WS is a fraud. Going through R is a grueling process. Why would someone do that if they are not going to do it properly? 

I'm pretty sure if I would have said that my wife would have said no. That's not because the whole thing is a fraud and she can't take her own, but because she wants to R properly. I went through periods where I tried to rug sweep and dismiss what she did based on her childhood trauma, sexual assault, etc. and she would not allow that. She wanted it to be dealt with properly or not at all (divorce). So a WS saying "no" doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

bobert said:


> I disagree with this proving a WS is a fraud. Going through R is a grueling process. Why would someone do that if they are not going to do it properly?


Ok. What I'm about to say is going to suck and I apologize in advance for insulting any reformed former waywards. This is informed by actually speaking to a number of cheaters in real life, speaking to a number of marriage counselors and therapists I trust, and speaking to cheaters here and elsewhere. And hanging out (silently) on /r/adultery for a few months.

I think most offers of reconciliation by waywards are lies. Some of those are conscious lies, and some of them are unconscious lies. Most of the time it seems driven by a fear that their spouse will leave them, and their life will be difficult. Why do I think that? Because every single reconciliation attempt I've seen first hand has failed. Because every single MC or IC that I trust has told me that the vast majority of marriages that attempt to reconcile either fail, or end up in an unhappy state. 

This is supported by the vast majority of actual psychological evidence that demonstrates time and time again that the best predictor of future behaviour is in fact the past behaviour. No matter what some awful cheater apologists like to proclaim from the pages of Cosmo, cheaters are in fact far more likely to do it again than someone that's never cheated. So even if the reconciliation seems to work, they are far more likely to do it again, and far more likely to have learned from their mistakes in getting caught the first time. So right out of the gate you're playing with fire.

And it's supported by talking to cheaters long term. I've actually listened to one "former" cheater coach another wayward on how to reconcile, allay their spouses fears, and pretend to be transparent. And how to not actually have to stop their affair at all - giving all kinds of reasons why they think the cheating is actually beneficial. See, there's plenty of motivations to fake a reconciliation: financial security, emotional security, reputational security, etc... plus still having other people to turn to sexually. That's a pretty big coverage of Maslow's Heirarchy right there.

And one last thing... waywards love shortcuts. That's essentially what cheating is - a shortcut. Playing by the rules is hard, and they typically want it easy. Reconciliations are hard. Words are easy, but having your spouse have flashbacks and being anxious for years or forever is just a lot of work. So they give up, and either leave, or go right back to cheating.



> I'm pretty sure if I would have said that my wife would have said no. That's not because the whole thing is a fraud and she can't take her own, but because she wants to R properly. I went through periods where I tried to rug sweep and dismiss what she did based on her childhood trauma, sexual assault, etc. and she would not allow that. She wanted it to be dealt with properly or not at all (divorce). So a WS saying "no" doesn't necessarily mean what you're saying.


Right. Some waywards can reconcile. There's a number here. My point is that they are few and far between, and even if they are genuine in their efforts to reconcile, you can't tell them apart from someone that isn't. 

And that's my point. If your wife wouldn't tolerate the same behaviour that she's now asking for you to tolerate from her and forgive - does she really understand? Is she really remorseful? Is she really willing to "do anything?"

I would say no. Not at all. If she were to say no, that would be clear to me that she is still living by one set of rules for her, and another set of rules for you.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

So just a quick response... 

Its is not that nice people get cheated on, even though some people that allow opposite sex friends, would be just one example. 

All type of people get cheated on. The issues is what do people do after the discovery. 

Like you said about that thread at SI, I think a couple of those guys are crazy for even considering reconciliation... On WW had an almost 7 year affair in a 12 year marriage, and one had a 4 year affair in a 20 year marriage. 

I would not stay in either case, but these guys "don't know what to do"... There is something fundamentally wrong with that thought process. 

I would be gone so fast it would make your head spin... How or why would anyone stay in that kind of a marriage...


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Right. Some waywards can reconcile. There's a number here. My point is that they are few and far between, and even if they are genuine in their efforts to reconcile, you can't tell them apart from someone that isn't.
> 
> And that's my point. If your wife wouldn't tolerate the same behaviour that she's now asking for you to tolerate from her and forgive - does she really understand? Is she really remorseful? Is she really willing to "do anything?"
> 
> I would say no. Not at all. If she were to say no, that would be clear to me that she is still living by one set of rules for her, and another set of rules for you.


I do agree that they are few and far between, and I agree with most of the other points you made. I know that my wife (and any other WS) could be playing everyone for a fool and will go back to her AP, or someone else. Like you said, a prior WS is more at risk than someone who has never strayed. 100% true. I know where her "weak spots" are, for lack of a better term, and I know she could cheat again if she wasn't careful. I have no doubts about whether she is remorseful or not, it's quite obvious that she is. But that remorse is a reason to improve herself and can motivate her to be better, it's not a cure for all the things that led her to cheat. I'm lucky (if we can call it that) that my wife is willing to do everything it takes and does "all the right things". On that note...

I don't think we should be saying "the WS should be willing to do anything". Instead, "the WS should be willing to do anything _to save the marriage_" (if that is the goal). Playing an eye for an eye is not going to save the marriage. It is going to cause more problems when the couple surely does not need any more. So, even if the BS didn't mean it and wouldn't follow through with it, I think a WS has every right to say no to that. Is it fair? No, it's not. There is nothing _fair _about infidelity.

Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't taken the route of sleeping with two women, or hadn't kept periodically texting and seeing one of them up until a few months ago. My wife thinks I kept sleeping with the "OW" after we decided to R, and she's still with me so... who knows.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

bobert said:


> I don't think we should be saying "the WS should be willing to do anything". Instead, "the WS should be willing to do anything _to save the marriage_" (if that is the goal). Playing an eye for an eye is not going to save the marriage. It is going to cause more problems when the couple surely does not need any more. So, even if the BS didn't mean it and wouldn't follow through with it, I think a WS has every right to say no to that. Is it fair? No, it's not. There is nothing _fair _about infidelity.


I'm not saying to actually do it. I am saying that sometimes putting the shoe on the other foot clarifies things for both sides, and I am saying that if she refused, then it would be an admission that she wouldn't reconcile with you if he roles were reversed.

That is very easy to say and very hard to do. And if she wouldn't reconcile with you if you cheated on her, it should cause some introspection and conversation about why you should reconcile with her.



> Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't taken the route of sleeping with two women, or hadn't kept periodically texting and seeing one of them up until a few months ago. My wife thinks I kept sleeping with the "OW" after we decided to R, and she's still with me so... who knows.


Ouch. Not sure what to say to that.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The thread has moved on and brought up some interesting questions. I'm actually finding the discussion helpful as a guide to thinking. 

So the consequence of breaking a marriage vow. To me at least marriage is very much a covenant or contract. I did go back and check the terms of the agreement. Faithfulness in love, and sexual exclusiveness were right at the top of the list. There was no punishment clause for breaking those or other of the vows. Historically there is no justification for the assumption that breaking a vow ends the contract. The end of the contract is another matter. I'm not Personally against it. There are some ethical issues, but even religiously there is a relatively easy path to divorce. It seems a likely path at this point, even if it is not what I want. There are many things happening that I don't want. 

@bobert 's list of reasons helped me. Because while they were all very reasonable things to feel, I don't feel most of them. I don't think Revenge is something I am needing. So if divorce isn't revenge, and if it isn't a threat to bring about reconciliation, What is it that I need out of it? I think it just serves to define the relationship as what it really is now. Two people who used to love each other. I think I need the honesty of that definition.

This is not the only bump we have had. We have always forgiven. We have always found a path of some sort. I just don't see a clear one today. 

I guess I'm unNice enough to enforce the boundary that I need love to stay in a relationship.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Revenge affairs only seem to hurt the betrayed spouse even more. I mean, it might feel like you're balancing things, but long term it seems to really mess things up.
> 
> One thing I have and do sometimes recommend is to say "Ok cheating spouse, if you really want to reconcile, you have to commit to being monogamous with me, but I get to sleep with other people for X amount of time."
> 
> ...


Yep. My revenge affair had me on tranquillisers. It hurt me more than my wife's affair.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Yep. My revenge affair had me on tranquillisers. It hurt me more than my wife's affair.


Ouch. I'm sorry, man.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobert said:


> Most of the time I do not refer to what I did as RA's, but I did here for the sake of keeping things clear. But let's look at the definition of revenge.
> 
> *Revenge:
> 1: to avenge (oneself or another) usually by retaliating in kind or degree*
> ...


Revenge implies that the WS actually understands and appreciates the implications of monogamy, loyalty, fidelity or even love the way that someone who won't cheat does. That is a big assumption and probably a false one. This is where the majority of those who try to R go wrong, they assume and make decisions from the way they as loyal and faithful monogamous souses think not from the reality of who and what their spouses actions have shown them they are. The truth is you are more like a car or a couch to them, just a tool for their fulfillment.

@MattMatt I am sorry to be so blunt but It hurt you more because your wife doesn't and never did see that as important to her. Again a tool remember.

Personally I don't see it as revenge because it implies that the cheating spouse ever had any value for you. What they don't like is the perceived loss of control and face so to speak. They really do operate in a different world.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> So just a quick response...
> 
> Its is not that nice people get cheated on, even though some people that allow opposite sex friends, would be just one example.
> 
> ...



While it is true that all types get cheated on I am very clearly postulating that someone who is very very "nice", or basically a Knight In Shinning Armor type as we call them is like a light to the moth who is the cheater. I am saying that that quality makes you more apt to be attractive to, attracted to, and eventually cheated on by someone who picks you because of that nature. In a women's case it is the type of women who mothers her man, makes excuses for him repeatedly, or who just picks losers. For men it's KISA, seeing ones spouse as almost magical types. I think it is this that accounts to the repetitive nature of the treads that appear here. There is a very definite type of person who seems to end up on these sites over and over, particularly if the threads are more then 10 pages long.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> The thread has moved on and brought up some interesting questions. I'm actually finding the discussion helpful as a guide to thinking.
> 
> So the consequence of breaking a marriage vow. To me at least marriage is very much a covenant or contract. I did go back and check the terms of the agreement. Faithfulness in love, and sexual exclusiveness were right at the top of the list. There was no punishment clause for breaking those or other of the vows. Historically there is no justification for the assumption that breaking a vow ends the contract. The end of the contract is another matter. I'm not Personally against it. There are some ethical issues, but even religiously there is a relatively easy path to divorce. It seems a likely path at this point, even if it is not what I want. There are many things happening that I don't want.
> 
> ...


I think it's interesting that your post doesn't even hint at the possibility of what is best for you alone in your decision making, all your decision making is in the context the two of you. It's all we and not I, yet I suspect for the one who cheated on you their decision making was all I as opposed to we. Most likely it still is. This puts you at an extreme disadvantage, as if you can't even see the possibility of I instead of we where is your leverage? You guys operate behind two different set of rules and motive, but this explains the cheating to begin with. Also how can you see the path forward if you don't open yourself up to all the possible roads that can be traveled.

This is sort of common in people that stay, they don't even open themselves up to the possibility that their life could be better without their adulterine spouse. It's very hard to leave if you don't open yourself up for a vision of better.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I think it's interesting that your post doesn't even hint at the possibility of what is best for you alone in your decision making, all your decision making is in the context the two of you. It's all we and not I, yet I suspect for the one who cheated on you their decision making was all I as opposed to we. Most likely it still is. This puts you at an extreme disadvantage, as if you can't even see the possibility of I instead of we where is your leverage? You guys operate behind two different set of rules and motive, but this explains the cheating to begin with. Also how can you see the path forward if you don't open yourself up to all the possible roads that can be traveled.
> 
> This is sort of common in people that stay, they don't even open themselves up to the possibility that their life could be better without their adulterine spouse. It's very hard to leave if you don't open yourself up for a vision of better.


You didn't quite get everything there, but thanks anyway . . .
To stay on your topic, You are saying that I was cheated on, because I didn't look out for myself first. I tried that, it didn't work much. My contention all along is that it is the beating of the realization of what has been done to you that makes you cave in and accept unpalatable terms. My (I) problem is that the love has been eroded for so many years that I don't really care what she offers. I can't imagine an offer that she could make that would move me. 
Many of the survivors here preach the, you will be so much happier when you get to what is good for you, line. I've already had that, I've had what was good, but it's ashes. I don't need to build another dream to burn.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> While it is true that all types get cheated on I am very clearly postulating that someone who is very very "nice", or basically a Knight In Shinning Armor type as we call them is like a light to the moth who is the cheater. I am saying that that quality makes you more apt to be attractive to, attracted to, and eventually cheated on by someone who picks you because of that nature. In a women's case it is the type of women who mothers her man, makes excuses for him repeatedly, or who just picks losers. For men it's KISA, seeing ones spouse as almost magical types. I think it is this that accounts to the repetitive nature of the treads that appear here. There is a very definite type of person who seems to end up on these sites over and over, particularly if the threads are more then 10 pages long.


Well I am not going say that "oh there are not studies that say that" which would be silly. 

I think that in some ways, people that cheat do kind of pick nice or KISA people. But is don't think that can be proven in any way. But I do agree that that is ONE scenario. 

You could also, say that trusting people get cheated on, but they don't have to be OVER nice people to be trusting... 

I think there are too may types of people to predict cheat or cheated on... 

It seems that you would be getting into a Venn diagram type thing, which could be informative but unprovable...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> You didn't quite get everything there, but thanks anyway . . .
> To stay on your topic, You are saying that I was cheated on, because I didn't look out for myself first. I tried that, it didn't work much. My contention all along is that it is the beating of the realization of what has been done to you that makes you cave in and accept unpalatable terms. My (I) problem is that the love has been eroded for so many years that I don't really care what she offers. I can't imagine an offer that she could make that would move me.
> Many of the survivors here preach the, you will be so much happier when you get to what is good for you, line. I've already had that, I've had what was good, but it's ashes. I don't need to build another dream to burn.


Yeah, I am in complete disagreement here... 

I know we are all different, but this is why I will not stay with a cheater. I don't really think it works. 

For me, I live like this: I will either be happy or I am working to get there. And woman, I am a guy, that is not making me happy, is out. 

I am not afraid of rebuilding, I have done it before, and it was worth it. 

Some don't feel that way, but I sure do. I stayed for a while in a marriage that was hell, and I would rather be alone, which I never am, but it would be ok. 

It is kind of the - You are with me or against me.

I know it is a hard stance, it just works for me...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, a revenge affair seldom hurts/affects a WS, unless they are truly remorseful and honestly want to reconcile. Almost always, IMO a revenge affair is about the BS's self-validation and perhaps finding some balance their loss. I also think that once one spouse has cheated, the marriage is over, and the BS isn't really cheating if they have an affair. While legally they are still married, in essence the contract/vow has been nullified. It then takes both partners to recommit to mending the contract - if they want to and can manage to do so.

I also do not think that cheating has anything to do with mental illness, except coincidentally. It's about selfishness, usually, but there can be many _motivations_ ranging from neglect to abuse. Cheating is so common that it is normal human behavior, no matter how harmful or distasteful that is. We want to think of it as dysfunctional, just as we like to believe in the fiction of karma - it helps us cope.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

bobert said:


> I didn't go wrong by being "too nice", or even "nice". Being a lazy, oblivious, asshole with no boundaries and purposely ignoring red flags, sure. But "nice"? Nah.
> 
> Assholes, nice guys, and everything in between get cheated on. Cheating is more about the WS than the BS. You were cheated on, where you "just way too nice"?
> 
> ...


I was contemplating this topic and I'm not a "nice" guy at all. I am very good though and the key I think you hit the bullseye with is I am very aware of danger zones and red flags as well as boundaries.

I take care of business with my wife and I'm generous in and out of the bedroom so she can't really complain about me not doing my part in our relationship. I think that is a good foundation for anyone.

Taking boundaries as serious as a heart attack probably does just as much to avoid straying.

We are both territorial mate guarders on top of it so would be lotharios and vixens don't really bother with greener fields elsewhere.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, a revenge affair seldom hurts/affects a WS, unless they are truly remorseful and honestly want to reconcile. Almost always, IMO a revenge affair is about the BS's self-validation and perhaps finding some balance their loss. I also think that once one spouse has cheated, the marriage is over, and the BS isn't really cheating if they have an affair. While legally they are still married, in essence the contract/vow has been nullified. It then takes both partners to recommit to mending the contract - if they want to and can manage to do so.
> 
> I also do not think that cheating has anything to do with mental illness, except coincidentally. It's about selfishness, usually, but there can be many _motivations_ ranging from neglect to abuse. Cheating is so common that it is normal human behavior, no matter how harmful or distasteful that is. We want to think of it as dysfunctional, just as we like to believe in the fiction of karma - it helps us cope.


While I agree with you in general, promiscuity and impulsivity is well documented with several disorders:








Sexual Behavior in Borderline Personality: A Review


According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, various forms of impulsivity are associated with borderline personality disorder, including sexual impulsivity. The existing empirical literature indicates that patients with borderline ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Given that about 1-2% of the general population has BPD, that number may seem small but it really isn’t. Especially given its high rate of not being managed, and the potential for one person to cheat on many.

I’ve heard my ex wife has cheated on a handful of other men after me, for example. So if she were to have BPD, she could have impacted 5-10 other guys. Or more!

And that’s just looking at BPD alone. PTSD can also trigger promiscuity and impulsivity. So can being abused or any number of things.

Which is not to say that all or even most cheaters have a psychological disorder. I don’t think they do. I am curious however especially with serial cheaters.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marduk said:


> While I agree with you in general, promiscuity and impulsivity is well documented with several disorders:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think serial cheaters definitely have a screw loose.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I'm not saying to actually do it. I am saying that sometimes putting the shoe on the other foot clarifies things for both sides, and I am saying that if she refused, then it would be an admission that she wouldn't reconcile with you if he roles were reversed.
> 
> That is very easy to say and very hard to do. And if she wouldn't reconcile with you if you cheated on her, it should cause some introspection and conversation about why you should reconcile with her.


You make a good point here. It's impossible to say what she (or anyone) would do if the roles were truly reversed. That being said, it is something that the MC has brought up a lot when my wife starts getting hypocritical. She usually tries to put herself in my shoes but sometimes fails at that and needs a "how the hell do you think HE feels" wake up call from the MC. 

Example: Couple of months ago my kids were going to a birthday party and one of the women I slept with is the aunt of the birthday girl, so she was there as well. My wife didn't want me to go alone, because I might bang that woman in the coat closet, but she also didn't want to go with me because the idea of being around that woman was horrible to her. Yet, I have to see one of her OM all the time so... tough titties. The MC pretty much told her to put on her big girl pants and deal with it for one afternoon because I put up with a hell of a lot worse. Moments like that do make it sink in for the WS. They kind of have an "Oh ****, this is what it feels like" moment. 

So while I don't think that the BS should put up with absolutely anything just to save the marriage, they do need to have their eyes opened sometimes and see/understand what the BS is going through.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Revenge implies that the WS actually understands and appreciates the implications of monogamy, loyalty, fidelity or even love the way that someone who won't cheat does. That is a big assumption and probably a false one. This is where the majority of those who try to R go wrong, they assume and make decisions from the way they as loyal and faithful monogamous souses think not from the reality of who and what their spouses actions have shown them they are. The truth is you are more like a car or a couch to them, just a tool for their fulfillment.
> 
> @MattMatt I am sorry to be so blunt but It hurt you more because your wife doesn't and never did see that as important to her. Again a tool remember.
> 
> Personally I don't see it as revenge because it implies that the cheating spouse ever had any value for you. What they don't like is the perceived loss of control and face so to speak. They really do operate in a different world.


The point of getting revenge was to hurt my wife. I accomplished that goal. The look on her face and her reaction, when I told her that I slept with and continued seeing other people, told me all I needed to know. Yes, it hurt her. A lot. A year later it still hurts. The pain, insecurities, mind-movies, fears, etc. that a BS spouse feels, she felt and continues to feel. The only difference is that, being the WS, she hesitates to say anything (to anyone) because she "deserved it" and "can't complain". So while I can talk to people about it and get support, she cannot because there is little, if any, sympathy going her way. IMO, that is the only difference. 

She explained it like this: 

Similar to committing a crime like murder, it's not going to just "go away" after a length of time or serving the sentence. It's a choice and consequences that she has to live with for the rest of her life and she will always be judged for it. Whereas my "revenge affairs" are more like someone killing someone in self-defense. Yeah, maybe it was wrong but it's also understandable to most people and most opinions are in the "he/she deserved it" or "you did what you had to do" range. 

And honestly, she's not getting very much if she's just using me as a tool for fulfillment. I'd be getting more out of that arrangement than her.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, a revenge affair seldom hurts/affects a WS, unless they are truly remorseful and honestly want to reconcile. Almost always, IMO a revenge affair is about the BS's self-validation and perhaps finding some balance their loss. I also think that once one spouse has cheated, the marriage is over, and the BS isn't really cheating if they have an affair. While legally they are still married, in essence the contract/vow has been nullified. It then takes both partners to recommit to mending the contract - if they want to and can manage to do so.
> 
> I also do not think that cheating has anything to do with mental illness, except coincidentally. It's about selfishness, usually, but there can be many _motivations_ ranging from neglect to abuse. Cheating is so common that it is normal human behavior, no matter how harmful or distasteful that is. We want to think of it as dysfunctional, just as we like to believe in the fiction of karma - it helps us cope.


I could be biased (probably am) but I disagree with this. I don't think everyone who cheats has a mental illness, and not everyone with mental illness cheats either, but there is a correlation. If my wife didn't have a traumatic upbringing and didn't have mental illnesses, I highly doubt she would have been unfaithful. Several mental illnesses have impulsivity and promiscuity linked to them. Borderline Personality Disorder, Bipolar, PTSD, OCD, to name a few. It is a piece of the puzzle, not an excuse. 

About a year ago I started going to a support group for people whose spouse was mentally ill. Every person who has come and gone has a spouse (or ex-spouse) with a severe mental illness, and every single one of them was cheated on by that spouse.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I think serial cheaters definitely have a screw loose.


Maybe they're trying to screw it back in. Righty-tighty, lefty-loosey ....


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> You didn't quite get everything there, but thanks anyway . . .
> To stay on your topic, You are saying that I was cheated on, because I didn't look out for myself first. I tried that, it didn't work much. My contention all along is that it is the beating of the realization of what has been done to you that makes you cave in and accept unpalatable terms. My (I) problem is that the love has been eroded for so many years that I don't really care what she offers. I can't imagine an offer that she could make that would move me.
> Many of the survivors here preach the, you will be so much happier when you get to what is good for you, line. I've already had that, I've had what was good, but it's ashes. I don't need to build another dream to burn.


Look man you get the life you choose and in that way you get the life you deserve. If you stay with a women you feel nothing for you are going to have a life with a women you feel nothing for. It's makes no sense to expect anything different or better. 

Don't be one of these people who posts 5, 10, 20 years later complaining about how your partner never changes or your marriage never changes and how unhappy you are. What do you expect. If you stay with someone who cheated on you there is a very good chance your not going to have a good marriage, and if you are still feeling it 5 years later I can almost guarantee it. It's not rocket science. 

Nothing good in life, success or wealth comes without risk. The same is true in relationships.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobert said:


> The point of getting revenge was to hurt my wife. I accomplished that goal. The look on her face and her reaction, when I told her that I slept with and continued seeing other people, told me all I needed to know. Yes, it hurt her. A lot. A year later it still hurts. The pain, insecurities, mind-movies, fears, etc. that a BS spouse feels, she felt and continues to feel. The only difference is that, being the WS, she hesitates to say anything (to anyone) because she "deserved it" and "can't complain". So while I can talk to people about it and get support, she cannot because there is little, if any, sympathy going her way. IMO, that is the only difference.
> 
> She explained it like this:
> 
> ...


I don't see deserving as the point really. 

The real question in my mind is why it hurt her. Do you think it hurt her because she feels she lost your fidelity that was precious to her or more because it makes her insecure to compare herself to someone else, as we know from your history she struggles greatly in this area to begin with. 

My contention is yes it may bother them but not in the same way it bothers you. You need to understand that most of the time at least for serial cheaters their motive is always selfish and self centered. I guess that doesn't matter if you just want them to feel pain, but it's just as likely they just won't care. Which is why the idea that you will get revenge in the sense of an eye for an eye is probably not going to happen. If they cheat they have already shown you that they don't value you or the marriage as much as you do them.

The best revenge is moving on and finding happiness somewhere else.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> *IMO, a revenge affair seldom hurts/affects a WS, unless they are truly remorseful and honestly want to reconcile.* Almost always, IMO a revenge affair is about the BS's self-validation and perhaps finding some balance their loss. I also think that once one spouse has cheated, the marriage is over, and the BS isn't really cheating if they have an affair. While legally they are still married, in essence the contract/vow has been nullified. It then takes both partners to recommit to mending the contract - if they want to and can manage to do so.
> 
> I also do not think that cheating has anything to do with mental illness, except coincidentally. It's about selfishness, usually, but there can be many _motivations_ ranging from neglect to abuse. Cheating is so common that it is normal human behavior, no matter how harmful or distasteful that is. We want to think of it as dysfunctional, just as we like to believe in the fiction of karma - it helps us cope.


I agree with this. But even worse, the WS can use it as a reason for their own intransigence. ie I had an affair because I thought you were having an affair. How can I be sure that you started yours after mine?

This what gave me the confidence to ask my (future) husband where did this woman / so called friend fit into his life. Because if she has to be around, then I would start dating other men. So at least, my future husband would never be able to say, seriously, i was fooling around with her because you were fooling around with someone else. 

So it's really not about honor but about having a discussion about the timelines in a relationship so everyone is working off the same facts.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

bobert said:


> Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't taken the route of sleeping with two women, or hadn't kept periodically texting and seeing one of them up until a few months ago. My wife thinks I kept sleeping with the "OW" after we decided to R, and she's still with me so... who knows.


YIKES...


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I don't see deserving as the point really.
> 
> The real question in my mind is why it hurt her. Do you think it hurt her because she feels she lost your fidelity that was precious to her or more because it makes her insecure to compare herself to someone else, as we know from your history she struggles greatly in this area to begin with.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think both. 

Early on she focused on the promise/commitment that she thought she had and that I broke, that I gave some special piece of me away, ruined something special, AND a ton of insecurities, questions, wondering, and fears because "anyone else would be better", we weren't living together, etc. So it was both. 

She was VERY hurt (and yes, it's hypocritical AF) that I lied about my feelings, broke my promise, and went back on my word. She STILL, a year later, is upset about it. She's _understanding_ of the circumstances, etc. but the emotions are still there. Buried, but there. It's not the original vows, etc. that she's upset about though - at least not that she's ever said. What she's upset about is a promise I made to her (about working on things, staying together, staying faithful to her, etc) _after _I told her I wanted a divorce. There's more to it than that, but THAT'S the promise she's upset about, not vows. 

Some cheaters might not give a rat's ass if their BS also cheats, I really don't know. In that case, "getting even" really wouldn't be worth it (or even possible). Everyone I've talked to who has had a RA regrets it, so that would make it even more not worth it. 

I agree that the best (or at least a good) revenge is moving on and finding happiness elsewhere. For me though, I didn't want to end my marriage. I wanted her to hurt alongside me. Not healthy, I'm well aware but that's the route I took (take).


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> YIKES...


Not my finest.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

bobert said:


> Not my finest.


I would NEVER judge you! It just felt like a punch in the stomach reading that...I can't imagine the pain between you both...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Look man you get the life you choose and in that way you get the life you deserve. If you stay with a women you feel nothing for you are going to have a life with a women you feel nothing for. It's makes no sense to expect anything different or better.
> 
> Don't be one of these people who posts 5, 10, 20 years later complaining about how your partner never changes or your marriage never changes and how unhappy you are. What do you expect. If you stay with someone who cheated on you there is a very good chance your not going to have a good marriage, and if you are still feeling it 5 years later I can almost guarantee it. It's not rocket science.
> 
> Nothing good in life, success or wealth comes without risk. The same is true in relationships.


I've not said anything about staying. I've just offended you by not looking for a replacement.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

bobert said:


> About a year ago I started going to a support group for people whose spouse was mentally ill. Every person who has come and gone has a spouse (or ex-spouse) with a severe mental illness, and every single one of them was cheated on by that spouse.


Wow, that is interesting. I would think that most cheaters had some mental issues to deal with, but I wouldn't have thought that everyone in a sample that had mental issues would also be cheaters.

I'm sure it's not ALWAYS true but wow.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Gabriel said:


> Wow, that is interesting. I would think that most cheaters had some mental issues to deal with, but I wouldn't have thought that everyone in a sample that had mental issues would also be cheaters.
> 
> I'm sure it's not ALWAYS true but wow.


To be fair, everyone in the group also started because they were feeling unsure about staying with their spouse. It's more like a "people who have a spouse with a severe mental illness and are considering divorce but don't know what they want" support group. The ill/cheating spouses are also all ill enough that they needed to be hospitalized long term. So it's definitely skewed.

I'll also say, there is a very clear pattern in that group of NEW people using their spouses mental illness as an excuse for the infidelity, thinking they could KISA them, etc.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Revenge implies that the WS actually understands and appreciates the implications of monogamy, loyalty, fidelity or even love the way that someone who won't cheat does. That is a big assumption and probably a false one. This is where the majority of those who try to R go wrong, they assume and make decisions from the way they as loyal and faithful monogamous souses think not from the reality of who and what their spouses actions have shown them they are. The truth is you are more like a car or a couch to them, just a tool for their fulfillment.


I will never, as long as I live, cease to be amazed at the heights of projection that this topic brings out.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Wow, that is interesting. I would think that most cheaters had some mental issues to deal with, but I wouldn't have thought that everyone in a sample that had mental issues would also be cheaters.
> 
> I'm sure it's not ALWAYS true but wow.


I would be very careful in attributing a causal connection here, especially given the level of infidelity in the population as a whole.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> I would be very careful in attributing a causal connection here, especially given the level of infidelity in the population as a whole.


Why?

Guidance on diagnosing BPD:


Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behaviour covered in criterion 5.
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
Impulsivity in at least 2 areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behaviour covered in criterion 5.
Recurrent suicidal behaviour, gestures or threats, or self-mutilating behaviour.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness.
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.









Diagnosing borderline personality disorder







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Infidelity seems to fit with #4 in many cases, and I can see common drivers with #2 and #7 as well. I'm not suggesting that a therapist use infidelity to diagnose BPD, but I've had more than one therapist, including one of the top BPD and trauma therapists in the country tell me outright that both BPD and PTSD increase the risk of infidelity dramatically in many.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobert said:


> Honestly, I think both.
> 
> Early on she focused on the promise/commitment that she thought she had and that I broke, that I gave some special piece of me away, ruined something special, AND a ton of insecurities, questions, wondering, and fears because "anyone else would be better", we weren't living together, etc. So it was both.
> 
> ...


What he more upset about you braking the vows or her?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I've not said anything about staying. I've just offended you by not looking for a replacement.


Not offended.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I will never, as long as I live, cease to be amazed at the heights of projection that this topic brings out.


Not surprised.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

sokillme said:


> (Was she) more upset about you braking the vows or her?


I would say she's more upset about her side of it and what she did.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Not surprised.


And why would you be? Someone who believes ...



sokillme said:


> The truth is you are more like a car or a couch to them, just a tool for their fulfillment.


... doesn't have any interest in an actual conversation. They want a cheap soapbox where they can, year after year, run The Propagandist's Playbook 101. Once you dehumanize your opponent, the rest is easy.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

NextTimeAround said:


> Some people believe that those who are too trusting get cheated on.


It certainly is a factor.
If there is no scrutiny, that certainly has to empower the cheater.
They not only cheat because of their malfunctions and their "Feelz," but because they can.
They also (in their minds) doubt there will be repercussions or accountability down the line.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

bobert said:


> I don't think we should be saying "the WS should be willing to do anything". Instead, "the WS should be willing to do anything _to save the marriage_" (if that is the goal). Playing an eye for an eye is not going to save the marriage. It is going to cause more problems when the couple surely does not need any more. So, even if the BS didn't mean it and wouldn't follow through with it, I think a WS has every right to say no to that. Is it fair? No, it's not. There is nothing _fair _about infidelity.


IMO, the bottom line is that the WS needs to be all in for doing the hard, intensive work, correcting their issues and for fixing themselves.
Any betrayed spouse not willing to hold their WS to that standard and hold their feet to the fire , is merely setting themselves up for more pain.
That is one of the reasons I think a postnup (or similar written, legal document) favorable to the betrayed spouse is a must. Talk is cheap. If the WS is willing to potentially put his/her money where their mouth is, then they bought themselves some skin in the game.
I think that if a betrayed spouse is willing to give the grace of a second chance, they deserve the added protection such a document provides.
The marriage wasn't necessarily the problem. The person stepping out on it was.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Tdbo said:


> IMO, the bottom line is that the WS needs to be all in for doing the hard, intensive work, correcting their issues and for fixing themselves.
> Any betrayed spouse not willing to hold their WS to that standard and hold their feet to the fire , is merely setting themselves up for more pain.
> That is one of the reasons I think a postnup (or similar written, legal document) favorable to the betrayed spouse is a must. Talk is cheap. If the WS is willing to potentially put his/her money where their mouth is, then they bought themselves some skin in the game.
> I think that if a betrayed spouse is willing to give the grace of a second chance, they deserve the added protection such a document provides.
> The marriage wasn't necessarily the problem. The person stepping out on it was.


I agree that the WS needs to be all in for doing the hard work. 100%. Personally, I think most WS are NOT willing to do that, at least not for any great length of time. Earlier on, some days my wife's only redeeming quality and the only reason I stayed was because she was doing "everything right" and putting up with all the ******** I've thrown her way. If she wasn't willing to do the hard work, neither would I. I've been very clear that if she does certain things (or stops doing certain things) then we're done. I've talked to far too many people whose WS stops doing the work (in the relationship or personal work) and the BS stays and makes excuses. 

The problem with a postnup in favor of the BS is that the WS could claim it was signed under duress, or it could just be thrown out by the judge if he/she sees it as unfair. Of course, the WS doesn't know that for sure. I don't think that's any reason not to do a postnup (I have one) but there is still no guarantee with it and the WS might know that and take the gamble.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

bobert said:


> I agree that the WS needs to be all in for doing the hard work. 100%. Personally, I think most WS are NOT willing to do that, at least not for any great length of time. Earlier on, some days my wife's only redeeming quality and the only reason I stayed was because she was doing "everything right" and putting up with all the ******** I've thrown her way. If she wasn't willing to do the hard work, neither would I. I've been very clear that if she does certain things (or stops doing certain things) then we're done. I've talked to far too many people whose WS stops doing the work (in the relationship or personal work) and the BS stays and makes excuses.
> 
> The problem with a postnup in favor of the BS is that the WS could claim it was signed under duress, or it could just be thrown out by the judge if he/she sees it as unfair. Of course, the WS doesn't know that for sure. I don't think that's any reason not to do a postnup (I have one) but there is still no guarantee with it and the WS might know that and take the gamble.


One thing that I have always observed is the focus on "Can the marriage be saved?"
I've always thought that was putting the cart before the horse.
The real issue is "Can the WS be fixed, and are they willing to do the work."
If the answer is yes, and their actions demonstrate that, then perhaps the marriage can be "Revitalized"
I use that term, because "Saved" infers that things will go back to be the same. Either better or worse, the marriage will never be the same again.

Yes, that is one issue with a postnup.
That is why I dislike the term.That potentially could be something that a judge can overturn or a WS can renege on.
That is why I note using a similar document, such as a financial document that accomplishes the same objective, without the stigma that the term "Postnup" may have.
However, I have been told that a postnup can be written that is rock solid, and steps can be taken to mitigate the WW coming back and saying they signed under duress.
Another option would be making some financial moves or restructuring within the household that would accomplish the same thing, without the document.
Regardless of procedure, WS needs to be all in. The financial piece is an important part because it shows they are all in, and provides ample incentive for them to toe the line. It also provides compensation to the spouse that has been wronged, and provides them incentive to give effort to reconcile.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> And why would you be? Someone who believes ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... doesn't have any interest in an actual conversation. They want a cheap soapbox where they can, year after year, run The Propagandist's Playbook 101. Once you dehumanize your opponent, the rest is easy.


Cause my post seem to always go over your head.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Tdbo said:


> It certainly is a factor.
> If there is no scrutiny, that certainly has to empower the cheater.
> They not only cheat because of their malfunctions and their "Feelz," but because they can.
> They also (in their minds) doubt there will be repercussions or accountability down the line.


And all too often they are right.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Cause my post seem to always go over your head.


They don't go over my head, they fail to hit the mark. 

Adulterers, like all failed humans, come in an endlessly complex array of personalities. They most certainly do NOT all view their spouse as nothing more substantial than a sofa, your wish to lump them all into the same sub-human category notwithstanding.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Adulterers, like all failed humans, come in an endlessly complex array of personalities.


I don’t agree with you here.

Adulterers act very commonly in my experience. So common that they call it the “cheater’s script.”

Where I agree is that the motivations for cheating can be somewhat complex (but usually isn’t), but the one commonality I’ve seen to all people that have cheated is that they lacked integrity before and during the cheating.

Some seem to do the work to regain it. Not many in my experience, but it does happen.

I have seen adultery happen in good marriages with good sex lives. I’ve seen adultery not happen in bad marriages with bad sex lives. I’ve seen men cheat for emotional reason and women cheat just for a fling. And the reverse of each one of those and more.

I have never once seen or even heard of someone talking themselves into being open to having an affair, or having an affair, and exhibiting high integrity behaviours at the same time. In fact, I’ve often seen the opposite - lying, manipulating, taking shortcuts, and behaving selfishly even in areas outside of the affair and marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I don’t agree with you here.
> 
> Adulterers act very commonly in my experience. So common that they call it the “cheater’s script.”
> 
> ...


So I have to ask. 

What is "your experience"? You seem to be speaking from a very large sample size of adultery that one would only expect from someone who has studied the phenomenon professionally. What are your credentials?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> So I have to ask.
> 
> What is "your experience"? You seem to be speaking from a very large sample size of adultery that one would only expect from someone who has studied the phenomenon professionally. What are your credentials?


Ah, sorry. I’m not a therapist or an expert by any means.

I was cheated on and left by my ex wife > 20 years ago. She left with no explanations, no admissions, nothing. Just there one day and gone the next. I had to go through multiple therapists, support groups, and read lots of books to come to my own conclusions.

And it’s always bugged me. I never got an answer from her and I never got an answer from any MC. I never got an answer from any book or expert. I just wanted to know why, and the answers I was getting would continually fail the simple test of logic.

If affairs happen because of dead bedrooms (like /r/adultery tries to proclaim), then why do people not cheat in sexless marriages? If people cheat because they’re unfulfilled in the relationship, then why do people in happy marriages cheat?

Conversely, why do some people that cheat over and over in multiple relationships suddenly stop? Why does someone that has never cheated until late in life suddenly start?

In short, it drove me mental. Even after I remarried. So I kept digging. Every time I’d hear of someone cheating in our extended family or friend groups, I’d go talk to them. I had the good fortune (I guess) to talk to some people that were cheating _before, during, and after_ the cheating. And I found that fascinating. The big aha I had there was watching the rationalization happen - I got to watch a small number of people I knew fairly well go from “I love my marriage” to “my spouse is the worst ever” to “I’m cheating because my spouse did/didn’t do something” to “Me cheating is actually benefiting my marriage” to “OMG they found out, what have I done?” close up and personal. And I continued to read books, articles, everything I could on the subject.

Somewhere along the way, I encountered problems in my own marriage. My wife was suddenly out with her friends a lot, going away on girls trips constantly, treating me like ****, and not listening to me when I tried to talk to her about it. Nothing I did worked.

So I (ashamedly) swallowed the red pill. Read Athol Kay’s stuff and talked to him quite a bit. The man-o-sphere. I got buff, I got mean, I got my **** sorted, and I started doing what my wife was doing. And it worked like a hot damn. All of it. Suddenly my wife wanted boundaries and wanted to work on the marriage and wanted to spend time with me again.

And so I kept it going. And started to terrify my wife. Sure, the interest was great, but I had her constantly on the edge, afraid of losing me. Many of my wife’s friends had crushes on me, openly. It was all getting weird. And the man-o-sphere and Athol Kay was becoming increasingly misogynistic. So I spit the red pill back out, because that wasn’t who I was.

We had been going to a few MCs on and off throughout this time, and we had found one that I trusted very heavily. Especially when my wife had started texting an “old friend” and hiding it from me. That blew everything up, and we were very much in therapy for something that looked a lot like an EA. And this MC had some fantastic answers and insights. So I kept talking to her on and off over the years about infidelity. And some others, as well. And I reflected back on how the man-o-sphere touted the red pill as ‘affair proofing‘ your marriage. Wow, that didn’t work!

She clued me into things like how many affairs are only discovered after someone gets an STD. How most of them in her (and other’s) experiences do not recover. How most of them - almost without fail - have some component of emotional abuse. And the removal of sexual agency.

So I actually went around and talked to other therapists. Once we got past the “don’t blame the cheaters” game, most conceded these issues. I mean, gaslighting is so very common in affairs. Which is abuse!

And all along this journey, on and off, I posted here and some other places. Watched and listened and read. And over and over again, I came back to one single conclusion that seems to me inescapable. Only one commonality I could find in my own previous marriage, with my wife texting this guy, with family members and friends that have done it. With every therapist I talked to. And wasn’t mentioned in any single book I found.

A lack of integrity.

See, if someone‘s in a dead bedroom situation and wants to have sex with someone else, and has integrity, they will divorce or open the marriage up. If someone’s lonely, they can do the same. If someone’s bored, they can do the same. If someone’s feeling like they ‘missed out’, they can do the same. They can get what they want or what they need without cheating. That was the crux of the deal for me - everything else was motivations or rationalizations.

So we go on. My wife gets assaulted and gets PTSD. Starts exhibiting BPD behaviours (although she doesn’t have it). Again, we consult therapists - including the top ones in the country about trauma and PTSD. She knocks my socks off. So I sit down with her one day and lay out my thinking. And she says it’s a fundamental component. Maybe THE fundamental component. Holding my wife’s feet to the fire with her PTSD responses, which included abuse towards me, was crucial. Holding her feet to the fire regarding the EA above was crucial. And if she didn’t want to have her feet held to the fire, it would have been a bad path for her and impossible for me. My wife has almost always had high integrity - except when she didn’t. And when she didn’t, that’s when bad **** happened.

So that’s me. I’m no expert.

But I’d love to hear how I’m wrong.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Tdbo said:


> One thing that I have always observed is the focus on "Can the marriage be saved?"
> I've always thought that was putting the cart before the horse.
> The real issue is "Can the WS be fixed, and are they willing to do the work."
> If the answer is yes, and their actions demonstrate that, then perhaps the marriage can be "Revitalized"
> ...


I agree with this. I don't like saying "save" the marriage. It doesn't feel quite right and I try to avoid saying that. I would never look at my situation and think we are "saving" the marriage. 

But I would say that _both_ the BS and WS need to work on themselves first before they can work on the marriage. They both need to get healthy first so they can be two healthy individuals coming back together, rather than two unhealthy people. From personal experience, I can say the latter does not work out too well. Chances are the WS has A LOT more work to do but the BS probably does as well, either from personal issues from before d-day or the fallout. For both the WS and BS, the motivation needs to be to get themselves healthy. Remaining married cannot be the only, or even main, motivation. That is a recipe for disaster. 

So, more than just being "willing" to do the work on themselves, the WS has to really WANT to get themselves healthy or reconciliation will never work out. 

With pre/postnups I think the key is being realistic, not vengeful, and having a good lawyer who is going to tell you how it really is and be realistic with you. There is probably a bit of luck involved as well, depending on how it's written, because infidelity or "lifestyle" clauses can be invalid in "no-fault" states. 

If the WS puts up any fuss about signing a postnup (or anything else) in the BS's favor, then I'd say they need to be given divorce papers to sign instead.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

bobert said:


> I agree with this. I don't like saying "save" the marriage. It doesn't feel quite right and I try to avoid saying that. I would never look at my situation and think we are "saving" the marriage.
> 
> But I would say that _both_ the BS and WS need to work on themselves first before they can work on the marriage. They both need to get healthy first so they can be two healthy individuals coming back together, rather than two unhealthy people. From personal experience, I can say the latter does not work out too well. Chances are the WS has A LOT more work to do but the BS probably does as well, either from personal issues from before d-day or the fallout. For both the WS and BS, the motivation needs to be to get themselves healthy. Remaining married cannot be the only, or even main, motivation. That is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> ...


Agreed. My answer was based solely on the WS.
The betrayed needs to focus on him/her self, and should expect support regarding what they need from the WS.
If WS cannot or does not desire to invest in themselves to become a safe spouse, not much point going through the gyrations of salvaging the relationship. If the betrayed can't stomach the thought of the process, best to cut bait quick.
I think the key to the " 'nups" is having skillful counsel. There are ways to get done what needs to be done. It may very state to state or situation to situation, but there is a workaround to everything, even if that means keeping "infidelity" out of it and writing it up as a simple legal contract
Yes, that's the minimum a WS can do. If they don't comply, no chance at R. Stick a fork in 'em, they're done.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's interesting that cheaters all seem to lack integrity. It's also interesting that I've seen plenty who display integrity in ALL other aspects of their lives, _except_ this one. And I wonder why that is. Is sexual/emotional gratification that much more powerful a motivation than almost anything else in their lives?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> They don't go over my head, they fail to hit the mark.
> 
> Adulterers, like all failed humans, come in an endlessly complex array of personalities. They most certainly do NOT all view their spouse as nothing more substantial than a sofa, your wish to lump them all into the same sub-human category notwithstanding.


Maybe not all but the majority. The point is they see them as inconsequential as a sofa or a car, they certainly don't see them asd a living an breathing person whose life they are destroying, at least at the time. Th sociopaths probably don't ever see them more then just things to use but who can understand that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> It's interesting that cheaters all seem to lack integrity. It's also interesting that I've seen plenty who display integrity in ALL other aspects of their lives, _except_ this one. And I wonder why that is. Is sexual/emotional gratification that much more powerful a motivation than almost anything else in their lives?


Yes, I’ve seen this - but one of the things that clued me in was the amount of cheaters that actually did suddenly start to have low integrity behaviours in more aspects of their life.

For example, one extended family member started hiding money for a drug habit that came out of nowhere. Another suddenly dropped all her lifelong friends with no explanation and started a new life. Another was involved in some shady business deals. Yet another was caught cheating on his taxes.

It’s far from universal, but I do think it’s interesting that these seemed to happen concurrently, seemed to surprise everyone, and had similar features - selfishness, betrayal, fraud. And they had similar responses - denial, gaslighting, and suddenly just walking away.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> It's interesting that cheaters all seem to lack integrity. It's also interesting that I've seen plenty who display integrity in ALL other aspects of their lives, _except_ this one. And I wonder why that is. Is sexual/emotional gratification that much more powerful a motivation than almost anything else in their lives?


I have always disagreed with those that said cheaters are immoral in other areas of life. I certainly am not, and never was. I think it depends on the person. Just because a man has never cheated I don't assume he is trustworthy, or even a better man than me for that matter.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I have always disagreed with those that said cheaters are immoral in other areas of life. I certainly am not, and never was. I think it depends on the person. Just because a man has never cheated I don't assume he is trustworthy, or even a better man than me for that matter.


You also seem to have confronted your actions head on, took accountability for them, and tried to improve yourself.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I have always disagreed with those that said cheaters are immoral in other areas of life. I certainly am not, and never was. I think it depends on the person. Just because a man has never cheated I don't assume he is trustworthy, or even a better man than me for that matter.


My wife still to this day says one of the reasons she married me was because of my moral character - not out of my mouth, but as evidenced in day-to-day life.

So yeah, I stepped pretty hard on my own **** too. But the only reason she ever found out about the one night stand was when I thought I might have contracted an STD, which required me to confess rather than expose her unknowingly. Which has also been mentioned as part of the reason why I wasn't immediately thrown to the curb. 

Now I'm no angel, and I'm not trying to paint myself as one. Infidelity puts a really big hit on your personal integrity score. Am I less moral than other people? Hardly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> My wife still to this day says one of the reasons she married me was because of my moral character - not out of my mouth, but as evidenced in day-to-day life.
> 
> So yeah, I stepped pretty hard on my own **** too. But the only reason she ever found out about the one night stand was when I thought I might have contracted an STD, which required me to confess rather than expose her unknowingly. Which has also been mentioned as part of the reason why I wasn't immediately thrown to the curb.
> 
> Now I'm no angel, and I'm not trying to paint myself as one. Infidelity puts a really big hit on your personal integrity score. Am I less moral than other people? Hardly.


In other words, you took accountability for your actions, fessed up, and did whatever you could to make it right.

I think integrity isn’t what you have compared to someone else. I think it’s what you give yourself. Especially when nobody’s looking.


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

I think some people will cheat just to cheat because they can. Or because it's thrilling or fun to them. I don't condone it but that's just my take. But I wouldn't put up with it for a second if I were in a relationship.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Anyone can get cheated on. Naughty or nice.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Anyone can get cheated on. Naughty or nice.


Isn't there a list for that?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I think too much is being made of cheaters.... In the end is just selfishness plain and simple, believe me they aren't thinking much about their spouse while they are cheating..... I don't believe most cheaters set out to intentionally hurt their spouse, that's just a side effect of their selfish decisions.
Humans are flawed In general, people cheat, steal, do drugs, etc, etc....in the end they have a problem they don't recognize and resort to flawed ways to fix it..... 
And someone who was 20 years ago could have changed to someone whom is not who they are today.... It happens, I see it all the time.... Hell I can't believe some of the stupid crap I used to do when I was younger,that I would never do now.
I have seen sons and daughters awfully betray their parents, and also the reverse....it's true when they say those whom you love the most can hurt you the most too.
I don't see betrayed spouses as weak as you are implying, majority of time they are in a huge emotional shock and not thinking rationally either, for them it takes longer to unplug from their betrayer, as they had no plans for it, so it's a process.......life can be cruel, it's hardly ever fair, all we can do is learn, adjust and pass it on.... 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

The Outlaw said:


> I think some people will cheat just to cheat because they can. Or because it's thrilling or fun to them. I don't condone it but that's just my take. But I wouldn't put up with it for a second if I were in a relationship.


Agree.... In fact I think some few studies have been done confirming that a large percentage of people would cheat if they could be guaranteed never being found out.... 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Agree.... In fact I think some few studies have been done confirming that a large percentage of people would cheat if they could be guaranteed never being found out....
> 
> Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


But it always seems to comes to light at one point or another.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Marduk said:


> I have never once seen or even heard of someone talking themselves into being open to having an affair, or having an affair, and exhibiting high integrity behaviours at the same time. In fact, I’ve often seen the opposite - lying, manipulating, taking shortcuts, and behaving selfishly even in areas outside of the affair and marriage.


Well Bill Clinton was cheating and to my knowledge he was still president and acting w integrity about his presidential duties..... So I dunno, why do we want to so badly find a one size fits all for cheaters? There doesn't have to be one, there is no rule or law that says so....we are driving ourselves nutz just trying to find a common cause or trait of cheating.... Why is that? 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Well Bill Clinton was cheating and to my knowledge he was still president and acting w integrity about his presidential duties..... So I dunno, why do we want to so badly find a one size fits all for cheaters? There doesn't have to be one, there is no rule or law that says so....we are driving ourselves nutz just trying to find a common cause or trait of cheating.... Why is that?
> 
> Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


clinton never did anything with integrity.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

i understand why a BS needs to know why their WS cheated.
though in the end whatever the reason is it does not lessen the pain.

this has not been said that often anymore. many WS become paranoid
that their BS is cheating on them when they are having their own affair.

hypocrisy for a WS to not want to be cheated on. but it is the truth.
their false justification to have an affair and what their BS does not know
will not hurt them. lets them compartmentalize their brain and cheat.

so when their BS has a RA it pains them just as much as if they never
were a WS first.

now some remorseful WW will suck it up, take one for the team, let their
BS have a RA to recover their marriage, yet it will hurt them.

some WW will offer a RA hall pass to avoid divorce and get her BH to
shut up for you are now no better than me, it is time to rug sweep.
because that is how they think this is the way to recover a marriage.

short term an RA may make the BH feel better though it never makes
their WW unfuck their OM. that ship has sailed, the train has left the
station.


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Isn't there a list for that?


By a jolly old guy with a snowy white beard. 🤪


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

Good Grief, talk about victim-blaming!

Cheating is about the Chester's crappy boundaries and character flaw. The end

The only reason I can even think of to twist it into THIS is to justify that "keep your woman in line by being an ass" routine a certain portion of men are fond of.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

secretsheriff said:


> Good Grief, talk about victim-blaming!
> 
> Cheating is about the Chester's crappy boundaries and character flaw. The end
> 
> The only reason I can even think of to twist it into THIS is to justify that "keep your woman in line by being an ass" routine a certain portion of men are fond of.


I see what you did there. You have turned it from "victim blaming" into "male bashing".

You have still deflected away from it being the cheaters fault.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> I see what you did there. You have turned it from "victim blaming" into "male bashing".
> 
> You have still deflected away from it being the cheaters fault.


Nope. Not male bashing. There is nothing a BS does to "make" their spouse cheat. It is entirely the Cheater's fault.

Besides, I don't actually know any flesh and blood makes who subscribe to the "don't be too nice to the little woman" philosophy. I hear a ver small number of men online beat their chests about it....but I doubt they actually live that way.

Bottom line, kicking a BH while he's down by implying he asked to be cheated on is crappy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Let me try to clarify what I mean.

I think people cheat because they want to. The motivations for wanting to are obvious: sex, attention, ego, etc. People like to get laid, it's part of the reason we're a successful species. That goes without saying. People also love to feel attractive, supported, and to be paid attention to. I do think a lot of people delude themselves about it - it's not about sex, even though we totally had lots of crazy sex. It was actually about [insert fake explanation here]. Or I didn't love him/her, even though I told him/her over and over again that I love them, it was just [insert fake explanation here]. All that stuff just boils down to basic human nature that drove a cheater to form relationships over their life to begin with. And all those explanations are mostly red herrings.

What I'm talking about is what _made it OK in their mind to cheat._ What _allowed _them to do it, and what _allowed_ them to hide it. What do you call it when someone only does what's right when people are paying attention but does the wrong thing when people aren't?

You call that a lack of integrity. As it's been often said, integrity is what you do when nobody's looking.

That's what I'm saying.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Let me try to clarify what I mean.
> 
> I think people cheat because they want to. The motivations for wanting to are obvious: sex, attention, ego, etc. People like to get laid, it's part of the reason we're a successful species. That goes without saying. People also love to feel attractive, supported, and to be paid attention to. I do think a lot of people delude themselves about it - it's not about sex, even though we totally had lots of crazy sex. It was actually about [insert fake explanation here]. Or I didn't love him/her, even though I told him/her over and over again that I love them, it was just [insert fake explanation here]. All that stuff just boils down to basic human nature that drove a cheater to form relationships over their life to begin with. And all those explanations are mostly red herrings.
> 
> ...


I asked my STBXW why she cheated......her rationalization? She was "bored". SMH


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

Bored????

I'm glad she's going to be your ex wife! Every faithful man deserves a faithful woman.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Numb26 said:


> I asked my STBXW why she cheated......her rationalization? She was "bored". SMH


I suspect she wanted to get laid by someone new. I suspect her _rationalization_ was that she was bored, therefore she wanted to get laid by someone new.

I suspect what _made it ok in her mind to cheat_ was a lack of integrity.

Step 1 - wanting to get laid by someone new is hardcoded into our species. Hell, every time a hot woman walks by a part of me wants to have sex with her. That's being a human being. It goes no further I believe because I try not to delude myself about my animal attraction and I try very hard to live a life of integrity, which I am far from perfect at.

10 seconds after she would walk by, I probably wouldn't remember she was there at all.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Marduk said:


> I suspect she wanted to get laid by someone new. I suspect her _rationalization_ was that she was bored, therefore she wanted to get laid by someone new.
> 
> I suspect what _made it ok in her mind to cheat_ was a lack of integrity.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of one of my Father's pieces of advice to me when I was younger...."It's ok to look at the menu, just don't order anything"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Numb26 said:


> Reminds me of one of my Father's pieces of advice to me when I was younger...."It's ok to look at the menu, just don't order anything"


I think it's also important to be honest with yourself and your partner about your attractions.

You don't stop being attracted to other people when you're in love. You might stop paying attention to other people because you're enamored or fixated temporarily, but that's not universal and usually fades if it happens at all. Even an enamored person is likely to have a biological response to a supermodel or movie star walking by.

And that is not at all a failing of the relationship. Being attracted to someone else is not a sign that there's something missing in the relationship. It's a sign that you are a human being and your biology is functioning correctly.

It's also why (I believe) that some people cheat while in happy marriages and then start to invent reasons why they retroactively think the marriage has always been bad or there have always been problems.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> What I'm talking about is what _made it OK in their mind to cheat._ What _allowed _them to do it, and what _allowed_ them to hide it.


Do you really want to have that conversation? Or, as is much more likely in this place, use it as a platform to push an agenda? 

I'm reticent to discuss it here because those who want to make the statement "It's the cheater's fault. Full stop." aren't interested in having a conversation that includes the full nuance of cause and effect. They want simple answers with morally unambiguous statements and the ability to assign 110% of the blame to one individual. That answer may be technically correct, but is completely useless.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Do you really want to have that conversation? Or, as is much more likely in this place, use it as a platform to push an agenda?
> 
> I'm reticent to discuss it here because those who want to make the statement "It's the cheater's fault. Full stop." aren't interested in having a conversation that includes the full nuance of cause and effect. They want simple answers with morally unambiguous statements and the ability to assign 110% of the blame to one individual. That answer may be technically correct, but is completely useless.


I know where you're headed I think, and I completely agree with you. But talking about that on a marriage forum is just asking for a riot.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Do you really want to have that conversation? Or, as is much more likely in this place, use it as a platform to push an agenda?
> 
> I'm reticent to discuss it here because those who want to make the statement "It's the cheater's fault. Full stop." aren't interested in having a conversation that includes the full nuance of cause and effect. They want simple answers with morally unambiguous statements and the ability to assign 110% of the blame to one individual. That answer may be technically correct, but is completely useless.


I believe it is both correct and useful.

If something is true, then the basis of that reality should be the best basis to move forward from. No?

For me, on the other side of that coin, I was forced to find my own answers. I was forced to confront the lies and BS and attempt to glean some semblance of the reality behind it. Along the way I also had to confront my own behaviour in the marriage and in the separation. With at least two separate therapists, support groups, friends and family during that year or two alone. I was far from blameless for problems in our marriage. But I had zero accountability for her affair. Zero.

If you want to reconcile, both sides need to work to do it. If you want to understand it, then understand it.

It's my position that the nuance in infidelity is as much a smokescreen as anything else. It's actually fairly straightforward in my experience. "It's complicated" is often a misdirection.

It may not be in your case. I don't know. But as I've said before, I'd be happy to hear how I'm wrong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldtruck said:


> i understand why a BS needs to know why their WS cheated.
> though in the end whatever the reason is it does not lessen the pain.
> 
> this has not been said that often anymore. many WS become paranoid
> ...


I believe in occam's razor, they did because they wanted to and they could. Honestly that is the idea you should be working from if you decide to stay or not because it's more honest. Plenty of people have very difficult lives and don't cheat. Hell how many people on here are cheated on and still refuse to cheat in return when most reasonable people understand that it's only natural to think that way at the very least. 

I really think part of the reason why R is so hard for folks and they are still miserable years later is they have never really been honest with themselves about it and gone though the pain of accepting a very very painful truth. Which is their partner was willing to hurt, abuse and discard them, there history and their relationship so they could feel good. I think first because that is an incredibly painful realization to have to go through, specifically when it happens to you the first time. In some ways it's a red pill moment for many. Yes before it happens to you, you know it's possible but until you go though it's just not real. I know it was like that for me.

The other reason however is because I think for some coming to that conclusion is a bridge to far as far as staying in the marriage. It's really hard to love and want to spend your life with someone who treats you that way. It goes against a lot of human nature. For some it seems foolish, because lets be honest they don't deserve it, also it's also a great risk. It changes the whole narrative that you have set up about the importance of your marriage and the love you have with someone. Because of that it's much easier to believe it's FOO issues, or stress, or the dog ate it. Whatever it is so you don't have to face the truth. 

The thing is you really don't heal if you are not honest, it's like cancer unless you cut it out it festers. 

Cheating at the end of the day is really all about the character of the person who cheats. That's it. It's no deeper then that. There were always alternatives. 

Even this post, I am not blaming the BS, all I am postulating is the "niceness" makes them attractive to people who have a greater potential to cheat. My overall point is don't be so nice that you give the impression that you are willing to put up with anything for "love" sake. You should never love someone enough to allow them to abuse you. And if you do I don't think that is love anyway. 

But cheating is always on the cheater and no one else.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> I believe in occam's razor, they did because they wanted to and they could. Honestly that is the idea you should be working from if you decide to stay or not because it's more honest. Plenty of people have very difficult lives and don't cheat. Hell how many people on here are cheated on and still refuse to cheat in return when most reasonable people understand that it's only natural to think that way at the very least.
> 
> I really think part of the reason why R is so hard for folks and they are still miserable years later is they have never really been honest with themselves about it and gone though the pain of accepting a very very painful truth. Which is their partner was willing to hurt, abuse and discard them, there history and their relationship so they could feel good. I think first because that is an incredibly painful realization to have to go through, specifically when it happens to you the first time. In some ways it's a red pill moment for many. Yes before it happens to you, you know it's possible but until you go though it's just not real. I know it was like that for me.
> 
> ...


Bingo. Well said. Stickie worthy.

Everybody has to own their own ****. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I've been told many many times in my life that I am too nice for my own good. I've been cheated on by 2 boyfriends and my exH. I lived in a celibate marriage with a man I knew was gay but wouldn't admit it for 6 years and I never cheated on him despite the opportunity more than once. I think perhaps you might be right. At least in my case.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

The Outlaw said:


> But it always seems to comes to light at one point or another.


Does it? Just-world fallacy is obviously not real. Plenty of people get away with injustices unscathed and plenty of good people have **** luck. This sounds like wishful thinking.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> I've been told many many times in my life that I am too nice for my own good. I've been cheated on by 2 boyfriends and my exH. I lived in a celibate marriage with a man I knew was gay but wouldn't admit it for 6 years and I never cheated on him despite the opportunity more than once. I think perhaps you might be right. At least in my case.


Other than maybe divorcing the gay man sooner, I don't think any of it makes you too nice. Being honorable when your husband wasn't means you have integrity, not that you're too nice.

My opinion


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

BruceBanner said:


> Does it? Just-world fallacy is obviously not real. Plenty of people get away with injustices unscathed and plenty of good people have **** luck. This sounds like wishful thinking.


Sadly this is true. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

secretsheriff said:


> Other than maybe divorcing the gay man sooner, I don't think any of it makes you too nice. Being honorable when your husband wasn't means you have integrity, not that you're too nice.
> 
> My opinion



I didn't really mean that I am too nice and that's why I didn't also cheat. Just that I am not the type of person to cheat, no matter what my circumstances. I think that some guys think I'm really nice and therefore I'm someone they think they can get away with stuff on if that makes sense. I know the guy who wanted the thrill absolutely wanted to be with me for that reason he has pretty much admitted it to me...he thought he could control me. He was wrong.

People say I'm too nice because I always give people the benefit of the doubt, give second chances, etc, etc. I always look for the good in people and can usually find some.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> It may not be in your case. I don't know. But as I've said before, I'd be happy to hear how I'm wrong.


I suspect not, actually. "It's complicated" is a perfectly valid description for almost everything that happens in life. 

So I have no interest in going down that unproductive road again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Do you really want to have that conversation? Or, as is much more likely in this place, use it as a platform to push an agenda?
> 
> I'm reticent to discuss it here because those who want to make the statement "It's the cheater's fault. Full stop." aren't interested in having a conversation that includes the full nuance of cause and effect. They want simple answers with morally unambiguous statements and the ability to assign 110% of the blame to one individual. That answer may be technically correct, but is completely useless.


We can have the conversation but I tend to think black and white on morally unambiguous things like cheating. I suspect you will think I am just pushing an agenda.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> I've been told many many times in my life that I am too nice for my own good. I've been cheated on by 2 boyfriends and my exH. I lived in a celibate marriage with a man I knew was gay but wouldn't admit it for 6 years and I never cheated on him despite the opportunity more than once. I think perhaps you might be right. At least in my case.


I'm truly sorry for you. I hope you find a good one one day if you are open to it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> We can have the conversation but I tend to think black and white on morally unambiguous things like cheating. I suspect you will think I am just pushing an agenda.


Thanks, no. Been down that road before.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

sokillme said:


> I'm truly sorry for you. I hope you find a good one one day if you are open to it.


No need...I am now with someone who is a completely open book with me and who loves me the way I want him to love me. We are having a blast together. He has also been cheated on by his ex-wife and so I think we both feel the same about it. His kids have said more than once that we are "exactly the same person!" as we think so alike about things, have the same sense of humor, etc. For the first time in my life I feel secure with somebody and I really, really like it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> No need...I am now with someone who is a completely open book with me and who loves me the way I want him to love me. We are having a blast together. He has also been cheated on by his ex-wife and so I think we both feel the same about it. His kids have said more than once that we are "exactly the same person!" as we think so alike about things, have the same sense of humor, etc. For the first time in my life I feel secure with somebody and I really, really like it.


That makes me really happy for you.


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

BruceBanner said:


> Does it? Just-world fallacy is obviously not real. Plenty of people get away with injustices unscathed and plenty of good people have **** luck. This sounds like wishful thinking.


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

I was going to say before things went to heck on my end that of course good people have sh*t luck. It doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t make it fair but it happens. It happens to the best of us every single day. But cheaters can get lost for all I care, I don’t do that and don’t care for it. Hope I didn’t strike a nerve just my two cents.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> I suspect not, actually. "It's complicated" is a perfectly valid description for almost everything that happens in life.
> 
> So I have no interest in going down that unproductive road again.


I'm a moral relativist at heart, so I'm quite aware there are nuances.

However I also think that we like to pretend our behaviour is a lot more complicated than what it is, and in my experience that complexity is conflated to distract rather than enhance understanding. 

I hear you that you don't want to engage on this further, so I will drop it at this point.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Which is their partner was willing to hurt, abuse and discard them, there history and their relationship so they could feel good. .


But I think is important for BS to understand that hurting them was not the cheaters primary goal, or even a goal at all, with very few exceptions the cheater is too busy caught up on their feel good lust to even think much about that they are hurting their spouse, because as a BS you really have to understand that the cheater isreally believing that they will never get caught, and you won't be hurt because you won't ever know..... This was a key element for me to understand to help in R and just realize in the end at the very core is selfishness, period.
The thinking that even if we have morals and boundaries that we won't ever bend them or anything thru our lifetime is a little unlikely......i can go into tons of examples where under certain conditions your morals and boundaries will likely flex or even fail.... 
This doesn't justify anything of how the cheater has betrayed their spouse, its still just as wrong as ever, no excuses... Is abuse of someone whom trusts you,
My point is we should be cautious of being self-assured that we will never ever act in ways that we don't think we ever will.


Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

CantBelieveThis said:


> But I think is important for BS to understand that hurting them was not the cheaters primary goal, or even a goal at all, with very few exceptions the cheater is too busy caught up on their feel good lust to even think much about that they are hurting their spouse, because as a BS you really have to understand that the cheater isreally believing that they will never get caught, and you won't be hurt because you won't ever know..... This was a key element for me to understand to help in R and just realize in the end at the very core is selfishness, period.


I agree. I think what you are really saying is that hurting the spouse wasn't ever really part of the equation at all.

In other words, apathy over creating trauma in someone they claim to love. That's really what that boils down to.



> The thinking that even if we have morals and boundaries that we won't ever bend them or anything thru our lifetime is a little unlikely......i can go into tons of examples where under certain conditions your morals and boundaries will likely flex or even fail....
> This doesn't justify anything of how the cheater has betrayed their spouse, its still just as wrong as ever, no excuses... Is abuse of someone whom trusts you,
> My point is we should be cautious of being self-assured that we will never ever act in ways that we don't think we ever will.


I'm no saint. But I feel like I'm on fairly safe ground there. When my ex wife and I separated, I had an opportunity to cheat, and didn't do so. I mean, she was literally throwing me away, and I didn't want to start anything up with someone else just in case she would come back to me.

When we did separate, I started dating a girl, and I fell for her hard. We were casual, and explicitly not exclusive. I was propositioned by a girl at a party I was having, and I said no... because even though it wouldn't have been cheating, it felt to me like it would have been. And I didn't want to mess things up with this girl I was dating. So I said no.

Another time, with my current wife, we had hit a rocky patch and I was sent across the world for work. While there, I was propositioned out of the blue at the hotel bar by a beautiful woman for no strings attached, nobody needs to know sex. I mean, half a world away, marriage falling apart, beautiful woman offering me whatever I wanted, and no way in hell my wife could ever know. I still said no.

That was a big trigger for me changing the way I thought about infidelity. I think there really are people that just won't do it, just like there are people that just won't steal or just won't do other things they find abhorrent. The only person that would have felt the fallout from doing that would have been myself, and I still didn't do it. Why?

Of all my numerous character flaws, I just don't think that is one. And I really don't think I'm alone in that - I think many, or even most people are that way.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I agree. I think what you are really saying is that hurting the spouse wasn't ever really part of the equation at all.
> 
> In other words, apathy over creating trauma in someone they claim to love. That's really what that boils down to.


Or you who have spent your whole life building something with them are as important is some old gum stuck on their shoe. 

My thing is why would you ever believe you are important to them again. Importance to people like that is placed on what it most convenient at the time. So after the fact when they see all their security being ripped away because of their actions OF COURSE you now mean the world to them, they can't believe they would do such a horrible thing. Why would anyone believe someone like that can love them I will never understand. How you could believe someone like that even understands what love is is beyond me.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> People say I'm too nice because I always give people the benefit of the doubt, give second chances, etc, etc. I always look for the good in people and can usually find some.


I'm that sort of person too. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and assume they have integrity like me. It doesn't make me "the sort of person who gets cheated on." It makes me the sort of person who is easy to cheat on by someone who lacks integrity. I'm only responsible for being cheated on inasmuch as I didn't have the knowledge to recognize my ex was cowardly, lazy, selfish, deceptive and manipulative before I got married.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Or you who have spent your whole life building something with them are as important is some old gum stuck on their shoe.
> 
> My thing is why would you ever believe you are important to them again. Importance to people like that is placed on what it most convenient at the time. So after the fact when they see all their security being ripped away because of their actions OF COURSE you now mean the world to them, they can't believe they would do such a horrible thing. Why would anyone believe someone like that can love them I will never understand. How you could believe someone like that even understands what love is is beyond me.


One of the things I've asked a couple of people as a response to things like 'I never stopped loving my partner' is to say something like 'if you never stopped loving them, and you love them now, would you really want them to be with someone like you?'

I've never really heard a true answer to a question like that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> One of the things I've asked a couple of people as a response to things like 'I never stopped loving my partner' is to say something like 'if you never stopped loving them, and you love them now, would you really want them to be with someone like you?'
> 
> I've never really heard a true answer to a question like that.


I believe them when they say it. But it's just a very low value love with no loyalty component to it. Again it's the way you love a car or a couch or something.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> I believe them when they say it. But it's just a very low value love with no loyalty component to it. Again it's the way you love a car or a couch or something.


I don’t, because it‘s a tissue thin rationalization.

Do you really think someone is loving their spouse when they are in the middle of banging someone else? No. When they are exposing them to STDs without being aware of the risks? No. When they are lying, gaslighting, and doing other emotionally abusive things? No.

And do they really love them when they want the betrayed spouse to reconcile? No.

Clearly those things are not loving behaviours. Clearly they aren’t loving their spouse at those times. Therefore, when they say ‘I never stopped loving you,’ it is a conscious or unconscious falsehood.

I don’t see a way around that logic.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

I know a guy who was cheated on, and he wasn't nice or a pushover...sometimes being a pushover may be factor in, sometimes not.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I don’t, because it‘s a tissue thin rationalization.
> 
> Do you really think someone is loving their spouse when they are in the middle of banging someone else? No. When they are exposing them to STDs without being aware of the risks? No. When they are lying, gaslighting, and doing other emotionally abusive things? No.
> 
> ...


Have you ever lashed out at your spouse in anger? Made a petty statement designed to hurt in the moment? Done something that was decidedly unloving to cover your bruised ego, register resentment, or something else?

(And if you answer no, I call ********).

Those are not loving behaviors either, yet we don't typically say that someone who doesn't make a habit of doing them all the time stops loving their spouse in the moment. It's not a stretch to say that when you are sufficiently angry with your spouse, you are not loving them. Or at best, your love for them has taken a distant back seat to your anger. 

I don't see a way around that logic.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I don’t, because it‘s a tissue thin rationalization.
> 
> Do you really think someone is loving their spouse when they are in the middle of banging someone else? No. When they are exposing them to STDs without being aware of the risks? No. When they are lying, gaslighting, and doing other emotionally abusive things? No.
> 
> ...


I believe they perceive that they love their spouse, whether or not we choose to call it love is a different matter. It's unwise though to not acknowledge that to the people who do this, this is what they think love is. I am saying believe that THEY believe what they are saying. They don't really have any loyalty component to their "love", love to them is how you as their partner make them feel. So when you talk to them about love just remember you are talking about two different things, every time they say they love you it doesn't mean what you think it means. It's like they are a different species when it comes to this. You have to decide if their "love" has any real value or is it just the what you were told is a priceless antique but sold for $.99 at the dollar store down the block.

That's what I am saying.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Have you ever lashed out at your spouse in anger? Made a petty statement designed to hurt in the moment? Done something that was decidedly unloving to cover your bruised ego, register resentment, or something else?
> 
> (And if you answer no, I call ********).
> 
> ...


Said something angry? Yes. Stormed out of the house? Yes. 

Did anything emotionally abusive, manipulative, or physically violent? Never.

I’m not sure why you’re trying to equate the two, especially since I’ve never told anyone, or even my wife, that I have never stopped loving her.

I’ve stopped loving her a number of times. She’s stopped loving me a number of times. Many of those times are documented right here on this site.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> I believe they perceive that they love their spouse, whether or not we choose to call it love is a different matter. It's unwise though to not acknowledge that to the people who do this, this is what they think love is. I am saying believe that THEY believe what they are saying. They don't really have any loyalty component to their "love", love to them is how you as their partner make them feel. So when you talk to them about love just remember you are talking about two different things, every time they say they love you it doesn't mean what you think it means. It's like they are a different species when it comes to this. You have to decide if their "love" has any real value or is it just the what you were told is a priceless antique but sold for $.99 at the dollar store down the block.
> 
> That's what I am saying.


I think the parsimonious answer is probably the right one most of the time here.

And the most parsimonious answer I can think of is that it’s yet another rationalization designed to make the cheater feel better about themselves and try to placate the betrayed spouse into staying.

I’m open to it not being universal. Everybody’s different. I’m sure there are exceptions. I just can’t wrap my head around the logic of it being true.

Love is also a verb, after all.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I’m not sure why you’re trying to equate the two, especially since I’ve never told anyone, or even my wife, that I have never stopped loving her.


I'm not equating the two. I'm making the point that at times all of us do unloving things to our spouses, act childish, or hurtful, or otherwise behave in decidedly unloving ways. Which does not in itself indicate a loss of love for our spouse.

All I can say is, from my perspective, my inability to get what I really needed from the spouse that I loved was why I sought it elsewhere. It was NOT a loving action in any way, no doubt - but I'm still here, even though I STILL cannot and never will get one thing that I really need from my spouse. I just deal with it differently now.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> I'm not equating the two. I'm making the point that at times all of us do unloving things to our spouses, act childish, or hurtful, or otherwise behave in decidedly unloving ways. Which does not in itself indicate a loss of love for our spouse.


I would say that it does. I mean, it’s not necessarily a binary thing, but I think love ebbs and flows throughout a relationship. A few times I’ve had one foot out the door in this marriage, and I would say that of all the feelings I had for my wife during those times, love wasn’t high on that list. I still cared about her and wanted her to be happy, but I was also pretty much in a ‘f this, I’m out’ mindset.



> All I can say is, from my perspective, my inability to get what I really needed from the spouse that I loved was why I sought it elsewhere. It was NOT a loving action in any way, no doubt - but I'm still here,


I think we’re agreeing here.



> even though I STILL cannot and never will get one thing that I really need from my spouse. I just deal with it differently now.


That sucks. I lived for what felt like ages like that in my first marriage, and it is draining and hurtful. I can empathize with that. Too many nights staring up at the ceiling at 3AM thinking about all the years to come...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I would say that it does. I mean, it’s not necessarily a binary thing, but I think love ebbs and flows throughout a relationship. A few times I’ve had one foot out the door in this marriage, and I would say that of all the feelings I had for my wife during those times, love wasn’t high on that list. I still cared about her and wanted her to be happy, but I was also pretty much in a ‘f this, I’m out’ mindset.


Quite. One of the primary responsibilities we take on as a spouse is to recognize that this is inevitable in a long term relationship, and that when it happens, your first reaction shouldn't be to abandon the whole thing. 



> That sucks. I lived for what felt like ages like that in my first marriage, and it is draining and hurtful. I can empathize with that. Too many nights staring up at the ceiling at 3AM thinking about all the years to come...


That was how it felt then. I'm past that now - true acceptance takes away the "what if". I have to own my decision to cheat and my decision to stay knowing this is not an area where compromise can really happen. She has to own her decision to keep me around after so huge a moral failing. 

I guess all I'm saying is that I always viewed her as very much more than the gum on my shoe, certain other poster's opinions notwithstanding.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I think the parsimonious answer is probably the right one most of the time here.
> 
> And the most parsimonious answer I can think of is that it’s yet another rationalization designed to make the cheater feel better about themselves and try to placate the betrayed spouse into staying.
> 
> ...


This is where you and I differ. I think it's more like a lot of these people are a very emotionally dangerous species like a predator, not just some selfish person. I say it all the time and truly believe for many of them it's in their nature. Which is why most don't change and why you need to treat them as such.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

sokillme said:


> This is where you and I differ. I think it's more like a lot of these people are a very emotionally dangerous species like a predator, not just some selfish person. I say it all the time and truly believe for many of them it's in their nature. Which is why most don't change and why you need to treat them as such.


I think some people very much are dangerous. There’s a reason that gaslighting and so many other abusive behaviours are so common with cheating - and yet aren’t called out as such, particularly with the current media bent towards ‘cheating isn’t bad, and sometimes it’s good’ Dan Savage/Ester Perel, et al philosophy.

There are also reasons why infidelity is associated with things like BPD, which also have many of these same abusive behaviours as symptoms.

Not that every cheater has BPD or any other diagnosable behaviors, but the patterns are there enough for consideration in my opinion.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I'm not equating the two. I'm making the point that at times all of us do unloving things to our spouses, act childish, or hurtful, or otherwise behave in decidedly unloving ways. Which does not in itself indicate a loss of love for our spouse.


I would argue that affairs (besides the just met at a bar got drunk and had a one nights stand, confessing the next day kind) are not doing something hurtful but a series of abusive choices. It's those repetitive abusive choices that show loss of love or the opposite of love really, which we all know is indifference.

No one who cheats on their spouse loves them, and even if they did who would want a person who could love someone and do that to them. Like the man who beats his wife and says he loves her, who cares. He is as worthless as a husband as his "love" is.


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## vincent3 (May 31, 2018)

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm replying mostly to the first page.

The original post strikes me as an attempt to paint instances of infidelity with a broad brush. I see it leading to an assumption like this:

BS: I recently found out that my spouse had an affair.
Listener: People get cheated on because they're too nice. You brought it on yourself.

Infidelity happens for all kinds of reasons. Maybe the person cheated not because the spouse was too nice, but because the spouse was too critical, too emotionally distant, too physically unappealing because they let themselves go, etc. Maybe they got married for the wrong reasons and later fell into dreaming about being with a more ideal partner, but were too afraid of how disruptive to their lives a divorce would be (or how they assumed it would be). Maybe they were corrupted by being exposed (allowing themselves to be exposed) to a group of peers who had low morals about marriage. Maybe the cheater went into the marriage knowing full well that they were in it to exploit it. Having a backbone can reduce the likelihood of these things happening, but they'll still happen.

I agree that not having a backbone can leave a person vulnerable to being cheated on, and there probably are some people who go into marriage actively planning to exploit a vulnerable spouse. The thing about a backbone is that you have to have the resources to act on that backbone. Never give up your capacity to be self-sufficient. I'm stunned by the people I've seen display an attitude that they "needed" to be financially supported, they "needed" to be cooked and cleaned for, etc. Telling them that they should maintain their capacity to be self-sufficient was, ironically, like breaking their backs.

As for proposing that the BS gets to have an affair because the WS did it, I think that's addressed by the article about how some people trivialize their infidelity to protect their self-identity. When A does it, it's exceptional and doesn't reflect who A is. When B does it to A, A rarely extends that treatment to B. Those are completely different motives.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

vincent3 said:


> Infidelity happens for all kinds of reasons. Maybe the person cheated not because the spouse was too nice, but because the spouse was too critical, too emotionally distant, too physically unappealing because they let themselves go, etc. Maybe they got married for the wrong reasons and later fell into dreaming about being with a more ideal partner, but were too afraid of how disruptive to their lives a divorce would be (or how they assumed it would be). Maybe they were corrupted by being exposed (allowing themselves to be exposed) to a group of peers who had low morals about marriage.


None of those reasons are why people cheat in my opinion.


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## vincent3 (May 31, 2018)

Marduk said:


> None of those reasons are why people cheat in my opinion.


For what reasons do you think people cheat?


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

vincent3 said:


> For what reasons do you think people cheat?


The only answers to that are “because they wanted to” and lack of integrity.

The underlying whys really don’t matter all that much. My first husband cheated. It certainly wasn’t because I was nice - I was actually quite a domineering ***** who demeaned him frequently because he was a passive “nice guy”. And our sex life was awful. He had an opportunity to feel desired, important to someone, and he took it. He didn’t cheat because he had a mean wife and a sexless marriage - he cheated because it was easier to get that gratification than to stand up to me or leave the marriage. He wanted to feel good so he did, without having to face the hard stuff.

After he cheated I had an exit affair and left him for someone else. I could say that his affair made me do it, but that isn’t true. I didn’t like how his affair made me feel and after more than a year of trying to reconcile I wanted those bad feelings to stop. I could have just divorced and nobody would blame me for that decision. But I wanted those bad feelings to stop NOW. I didn’t have the integrity to end it and start something new, I wanted good feelings to replace the bad right then.

I actually hate the word integrity and feel defensive when people use it. Replace it with “having the balls to face discomfort” and I think it makes more sense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So in thinking of this post I decided to continue my line of thought. I think when you really get down to it it's about power. I think when someone is always "nice" meaning non-assertive or even worse too submissive there is a power imbalance in the relationship. That very often leads to entitlement but I wonder if that is what the main attraction is in the first place. 

I think this is often the same situation when it comes to R especially when the BS is willing to R at all cost. This create a tremendous power imbalance which often times follows one that already existed but now it's worse.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree with what you've written, and it's what I experienced in my marriage.

But being 'nice' isn't the same as being kind. 

I would've preferred more honesty and less accommodation.



sokillme said:


> I think when someone is always "nice" meaning non-assertive or even worse too submissive there is a power imbalance in the relationship.


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## vincent3 (May 31, 2018)

Bluesclues said:


> I was actually quite a domineering *** who demeaned him frequently because he was a passive “nice guy”


Why did you marry him?


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

vincent3 said:


> Why did you marry him?


I don’t want to thread jack so I will be brief...that is the $1 million question. But it wasn’t always that way - I married him because he was smart, kind, funny and cute. And I was ambitious and thought I could pick up the slack in the areas he lacked, you know, like a team. Turned out I could indeed pick up the slack, but not without building a huge amount of resentment. I didn’t know at the time I was mean, that was my postmortem analysis.


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## WhenItRains10 (Dec 20, 2020)

sokillme said:


> First let me say I am not posting this to be mean or kick people when they are down, I am trying to point out a pattern that may change some folks thinking. So doing some reading on SI (since I have nothing to do but sit home) I have decided to court controversy once again. My contention is most people who brutally cheated on just seem way to "nice" (which is one way to put it) and put up with way too much. Some of the stories and what these folks are willing to put up with, how they are willing to be treated just reaffirms my believe that this non-confrontational and at times timid nature is part of what drew the type of person who would cheat right to them in the first place.
> 
> I just think more often then not when you are talking about serial cheaters and long term affairs, someone who is assertive with a good sense of self worth would have called them out on their ****** as to never get to the point where they would marry these types in the first place. Being married to someone who gets caught up in an office affair, or a drunken ONS that happens. But someone who is a serial cheater, or who has a blatant sexual affair and acts like they are still single, that is something different. Sure people can be fooled but in hearing stories you wonder if their were not people around thinking, that person is not someone anyone should marry.
> 
> ...





sokillme said:


> First let me say I am not posting this to be mean or kick people when they are down, I am trying to point out a pattern that may change some folks thinking. So doing some reading on SI (since I have nothing to do but sit home) I have decided to court controversy once again. My contention is most people who brutally cheated on just seem way to "nice" (which is one way to put it) and put up with way too much. Some of the stories and what these folks are willing to put up with, how they are willing to be treated just reaffirms my believe that this non-confrontational and at times timid nature is part of what drew the type of person who would cheat right to them in the first place.
> 
> I just think more often then not when you are talking about serial cheaters and long term affairs, someone who is assertive with a good sense of self worth would have called them out on their ****** as to never get to the point where they would marry these types in the first place. Being married to someone who gets caught up in an office affair, or a drunken ONS that happens. But someone who is a serial cheater, or who has a blatant sexual affair and acts like they are still single, that is something different. Sure people can be fooled but in hearing stories you wonder if their were not people around thinking, that person is not someone anyone should marry.
> 
> ...


Not sure I did this right. Don’t know how to delete all the previous and just put my reply so advice is welcome. So, I kind of agree with you, but kind of don’t. I was the way too nice one that got cheated on. I found out he was doing it the whole 19 years being in military trips etc. I suspected over the years because of comments he made or how he would look at other women, but he always denied. There are some people like him that are successful at making a person feel they are just crazy. He said to me many times I was just sensitive or a “hater” when I would call him out on oogling. My problem was trusting the fact that he was a Christian (or claimed to be) so wouldn’t do such a thing. Now that I’m going through my divorce (been going on two years now) I see soooo many others in the same situations. I think I was oblivious to what’s really out there in the world. In fact, I know I was after being on this site because I’m still shocked by some of the stuff I read. Shocked and very sad and discouraged. However, you better believe if I meet another, I won’t put up with any crap. My ex would always get on my phone, but I was never allowed to touch his. I won’t put up with that anymore among other things. So I think it’s just about being a very trusting person. I’ve just been the type to always believe what people say because I’m honest myself. I no longer trust everyone though, believe that. The crazy thing is, I was this strong independent girl when he met me, not the type to let people walk on her, and somehow it all changed over 19 years until towards the end and then I finally started defending myself. So I’m not so sure it was because I was too nice. It was a combination of trust (stupid I know) and him just beating me down over the years. I feel like I totally rambled here but I’m kind of tired so apologies if it makes no sense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I truly wish for you that you meet someone else and have a truly good marriage. I suspect your post will be very different.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think it's more that the ones who stay and think things will change are too naive and altruistic for their own good and believe in the basic goodness of human beings. Cough, cough.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

I don’t know if high EQ, loyalty, kindness, decency and empathy invite being betrayed but there’s definitely merit to the original post in terms of what happens after DDAY.

far too many men like myself fall into a bit of a nice guy trap after DDAY. And far too many betrayed women can’t harden up because their natural nurturing tendencies and kindness put them at a disadvantage to a cheating husband willing to take advantage.

It takes awhile for us to snap out of the trauma and start dealing with things as they are.

After all, we were happily and firmly living in the context of a lifelong commitment ten seconds before DDAY.

It’s a bit like that scene from The Matrix when Neo is brutally expelled from his amniotic cocoon and realizes he’s been existing as a human battery plugged into a nightmare machine.

It’s that bad.

So you go from thinking the world is one thing, sunny and reliable, to suddenly being in a post apocalyptic landscape where it’s nighttime constantly and the cities are ruins.

This is where nice guy feedback loops get you in trouble. Hopium, Amazon bookstore chumpdom, trying to puzzle your way through a maze of conflicting and gobsmacking things your WW says and does.

and there’s scientific evidence to suggest that a real “doormat effect” exists. The kinder you are to someone taking advantage of you, the more they will treat you as a doormat.

I don’t think that being innately kind hearted invites betrayal. If it does, well, we’re probably all screwed —because eventually the kindness in our society will fade away and we will be living in some kind of Game of Thrones hellscape where cruelty is the highest value. Might be an entertaining HBO series but not many of us would actually want to live in that world.

However once betrayal does happen, the best thing we can do for betrayed spouses is to help them see the Matrix, unplug and start living in the new reality.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Here’s why a revenge affair almost never works:

1. you’re compromising yourself and your values — two things you are able to stand on in spite of your trauma. Take those away and your footing is less secure.

2. if you did the RA with another married person, then you’re willfully countenancing visiting the same pain you’re experiencing upon yet another loyal, innocent spouse. Why would you do that, knowing the level of trauma and devastation you’re living with? You’d have to be a sadist to do that, not to mention breaking up another family and hurting innocent children.

3. if you carry out the RA with a single person, there’s a high risk you will hurt them, because it’s unlikely you’re conducting the RA with the hope of a long term relationship. You’re starting the RA as a way to exact revenge, as an ego boost for yourself and for sexual gratification. So you’re operating on false premises. Why would you willingly pursue a single person like that when your motives aren’t about your care for this person at all? You’re using them.

reasons 2 and 3 feedback into reason 1.

like most betrayed spouses I considered an RA. I receive a great many radar pings from attractive women all the time. I thought about it, and then concluded the three part problem above.

hopefully this helps others avoid carrying out a RA.

conclusion: revenge affairs are futile, unethical, and have a high likelihood of hurting a great many people, including yourself, bringing pain on top of pain.

better option: divorce, go pursue honest relationships


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> I don’t know if high EQ, loyalty, kindness, decency and empathy invite being betrayed but there’s definitely merit to the original post in terms of what happens after DDAY.
> 
> far too many men like myself fall into a bit of a nice guy trap after DDAY. And far too many betrayed women can’t harden up because their natural nurturing tendencies and kindness put them at a disadvantage to a cheating husband willing to take advantage.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is anything kind about loyalty without requirements. It's more like a dysfunction such as drug addiction and really needs to be seen as such. 

That's the thing that invites the abuse, the lack of requirement. 

Funny I tried to start watching Outlander last night. The first episode the main character's husband (who she will eventually cheat on after she is pulled into the past.) asks her if she cheated on him during WW1 when they were separated for 5 years. She is incredulous. (The implication to the viewer is he did) but then he says, it wouldn't matter as he would love her no matter what. Needless to say I was disgusted.

That right there, that romanticized attitude about soulmates, love at all cost, and love conquers all is dangerous and men and women who think like this invite getting cheated on. It's like telling a thief that you will never prosecute no matter what they take from you. Love needs to be earned every day, it needs to be required to be earned every day.

Accountability is one of the most loving thing you can give to a person. I don't believe you can truly love someone without it. If you say you do then your love is really about yourself because it's based on fear, it says you don't trust the love and it has no worth.

I think a lot of problems in society from this kind of thinking. For instance staying with a chronic abuser such as a serial cheater because of empathy is not a noble or even healthy way of thinking. Kind of like trying to be empathetic to a rapist. Society would actually do better if we had less empathy for individuals like that but isolated them before they get better and change. Just like society would be better if these type of abusive marriages end.

By the way I don't think I am going to watch Outlander. It reads like an unhappy wife's cheating fantasy. I would love to see the genders reversed. Where a husband goes back in time and meets Salma Hayek and is forced to marry her. I bet it won't go over as well. Men don't do those kind of elaborate fantasies to justify our adulterous longings, we just watch porn.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sideways said:


> First off, for the most part, cheating is about the cheater and how F'ed up they are and that's why they cheat. Not because their partner is "too nice".
> 
> As for what the BS does afterwards (which seems to be what you're post is dealing with), in my humble opinion it has NOTHING to do with them being "too nice".
> 
> ...


When I was young, I saw a lot of men who were my peers who dated and were friends with women more like themselves, a little wild, but then marry someone mild who stayed at home and didn't call them on their philandering. I do think it's a totally conscious decision. Now, that's not "nice." It's someone who has decided for whatever their reasons, to stay in the relationship regardless and pretend nothing is wrong. A lot of women do it. I do think it's mostly fear and not being self-sufficient, but it can also be just very dependent on wanting someone around and being very uncomfortable alone, though seems to me like if your man is out running around and cheating like a single person, that's not much company. But people make their own choices. Sometimes they are in denial and think the man really cares about them because they were nice in the beginning or they're nice in bed or whatever and just live off that. It's weak, but not everybody is strong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> Here’s why a revenge affair almost never works:
> 
> 1. you’re compromising yourself and your values — two things you are able to stand on in spite of your trauma. Take those away and your footing is less secure.
> 
> ...


All of that is true. I would also add it's not a good life strategy.

If you are in a marriage but you know in your mind you are done and you are open to a new relationship, then LEAVE! What if you meet someone who you could have a healthy happy relationship with, you are undermining your chance by doing so while you are still married. 

First of all someone who is willing to have a relationship with someone who is married is probably not the best choice for a long term healthy relationship. Their morals are in question. So right away you cut down your pool of potential positive choices. But even if you ignore that you are starting off this new relationship in secrecy and shame. Besides wouldn't you rather have the opportunity to see and be with them whenever and wherever you want.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> you are starting off this new relationship in secrecy and shame. Besides wouldn't you rather have the opportunity to see and be with them whenever and wherever you want.


Spot on.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Thumos said:


> Here’s why a revenge affair almost never works:
> 
> 1. you’re compromising yourself and your values — two things you are able to stand on in spite of your trauma. Take those away and your footing is less secure.
> 
> ...


It didn’t even occur to me that this was a thing until in couples counseling one of the reasons my H gave for being weary of reconciliation was that I might decide to have an affair on him in the future. I thought at the time he just doesn’t know me at all if this is what he thinks, but I guess it really is a thing!?!? Pretty interesting that a cheater would be so afraid of being cheated on, but also I guess I understand people wanting to inflict that pain on the cheater. I just personally don’t have it in me to have sex with someone I don’t love.

So did you reconcile and then consider the RA?


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> It didn’t even occur to me that this was a thing until in couples counseling one of the reasons my H gave for being weary of reconciliation was that I might decide to have an affair on him in the future. I thought at the time he just doesn’t know me at all if this is what he thinks, but I guess it really is a thing!?!? Pretty interesting that a cheater would be so afraid of being cheated on, but also I guess I understand people wanting to inflict that pain on the cheater. I just personally don’t have it in me to have sex with someone I don’t love.
> 
> So did you reconcile and then consider the RA?


I was in the midst of "trying" to reconcile (and I think a lot of BS's need to think about this; if you're "trying" so hard, what are you getting out of this?) and certainly considered it as I began to realize more and more that I was quite attractive to many women out there (I had filtered the "pings" on my radar from other women before the affair because of my devotion and faithfulness to my WW, and just wasn't as aware of it as I am now. Now I see it all the time.)

My WW has done a lot of "super spouse" things since DDAY - a lot of meaningful in fact. But she's never been transparent and authentic about the affair. The circumstances of her affair were a dealbreaker from DDAY, but I felt trapped and didn't want to blow up my kids' lives.

Four years on, I'm in a healthier head space and can see things more clearly. Since my WW can't be authentic and transparent with me, and since the circumstances were already a dealbreaker, I told her this fall I want a divorce. I've been working on the logistics since then. 

I won't be having a RA. I won't be getting down in the muck with my WW. I won't be sacrificing my own ethics and integrity. I'll get a divorce and then have fun having authentic relationships with other women honestly and forthrightly.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I don't think there is anything kind about loyalty without requirements. It's more like a dysfunction such as drug addiction and really needs to be seen as such.
> 
> That's the thing that invites the abuse, the lack of requirement.
> 
> ...


There is one difference with Outlander, she goes back in time to a time and place where marriage had nothing to do with feelings and love and more to do with prosperity and propriety... and she has to get married and “seal” the marriage to keep her life... and then over time she does fall in love with her past husband. Not defending this as it is fiction, but it’s a pretty good show, and book. I do see your points with the attitudes though. It’s romanticized in all forms of entertainment.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Thumos said:


> I was in the midst of "trying" to reconcile (and I think a lot of BS's need to think about this; if you're "trying" so hard, what are you getting out of this?) and certainly considered it as I began to realize more and more that I was quite attractive to many women out there (I had filtered the "pings" on my radar from other women before the affair because of my devotion and faithfulness to my WW, and just wasn't as aware of it as I am now. Now I see it all the time.)
> 
> My WW has done a lot of "super spouse" things since DDAY - a lot of meaningful in fact. But she's never been transparent and authentic about the affair. The circumstances of her affair were a dealbreaker from DDAY, but I felt trapped and didn't want to blow up my kids' lives.
> 
> ...


Totally understand this and I agree, I wish I would have known what I know now when I tried my reconciliation with an ambivalent participant. I should have done none of the trying at that point and no betrayed spouse should.

It’s great that you have such insight and look forward to the fun of dating, I hate dating, I cringe when I think of being with someone new, but I don’t need to date or have anyone to have a good life either so... I try not to worry about it.

Do you regret the 4 years you put into it? (I’m sorry if this is a thread-jack I’m genuinely interested.)


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> By the way I don't think I am going to watch Outlander. It reads like an unhappy wife's cheating fantasy. I would love to see the genders reversed. Where a husband goes back in time and meets Salma Hayek and is forced to marry her. I bet it won't go over as well. Men don't do those kind of elaborate fantasies to justify our adulterous longings, we just watch porn.


LOL, exactly. I know a bit about these books because I've heard women talk about them. They are filled with dominant fantasy sexual content. What the professional writers in the trade call a "bodice ripper" but dressed up as a historical novel, with the sci-fi/fantasy component of time travel.

But it's even worse than that. The novels are basically an apologia for female infidelity. The heroine's faithful and mild-mannered husband in current day has an ancestor, and he's the villain of the series. So, you see, the heroine has no choice but to jump in the sack with another man and she's provided with the convenient typical rationalizing most WW's do but in this case personified as pure evil in a man who looks exactly like her faithful husband. 

In a way, both the series and the novels also portray a betrayed husband's desperate pick me dance. The heroine's husband searches for his missing wife, while she's simply the victim of circumstance accidentally falling on the genitalia of the hot highlander. 

It's pretty putrid stuff. And if it were reversed, it would be roundly criticized in the media.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> Do you regret the 4 years you put into it? (I’m sorry if this is a thread-jack I’m genuinely interested.)


No, I don't. If I had divorced immediately, I think my healing would be much further along. But hindsight is pointless, and I do feel the additional four years helped me stabilize things for my family and see my way more clearly.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> There is one difference with Outlander, she goes back in time to a time and place where marriage had nothing to do with feelings and love and more to do with prosperity and propriety... and she has to get married and “seal” the marriage to keep her life... and then over time she does fall in love with her past husband. Not defending this as it is fiction, but it’s a pretty good show, and book. I do see your points with the attitudes though. It’s romanticized in all forms of entertainment.


I know, but I don't think I can past the point that it is written is such a way to make all the circumstances convenient for her adultery. Of course the dude she has the affair with is like the best looking guy alive. Like make the guy be Paul Giamatti, now that would be a show! It just seems dishonest. I don't mind the cheating, that's life, it's the dishonesty I don't like. I want to watch it cause I love the premise but not if I am going to be pissed off the whole time. I will probably continue to give it a try. Funny my Dad who cheated told me it was good. Sigh.. 

At this point I am starting to think Ronald Moore is kind of a douche, it was the same with Battlestar Galactica which was his show. He always seemed to create the most extremely impossible situations to allow the main characters to make immoral choices that because of circumstances were ambiguous. This story falls right in his wheelhouse, but that whole kind of story telling seems dishonest. I mean are well really challenging social mores if we have to present improbable scenarios to do so?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> Totally understand this and I agree, I wish I would have known what I know now when I tried my reconciliation with an ambivalent participant. I should have done none of the trying at that point and no betrayed spouse should.
> 
> It’s great that you have such insight and look forward to the fun of dating, I hate dating, I cringe when I think of being with someone new, but I don’t need to date or have anyone to have a good life either so... I try not to worry about it.
> 
> Do you regret the 4 years you put into it? (I’m sorry if this is a thread-jack I’m genuinely interested.)


I started the thread, so thread jack away. This is a general discussion thread, not one for someone asking for help anyway.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> All of that is true. I would also add it's not a good life strategy.
> 
> If you are in a marriage but you know in your mind you are done and you are open to a new relationship, then LEAVE! What if you meet someone who you could have a healthy happy relationship with, you are undermining your chance by doing so while you are still married.
> 
> First of all someone who is willing to have a relationship with someone who is married is probably not the best choice for a long term healthy relationship. Their morals are in question. So right away you cut down your pool of potential positive choices. But even if you ignore that you are starting off this new relationship in secrecy and shame. Besides wouldn't you rather have the opportunity to see and be with them whenever and wherever you want.


I really believe this is how people you know end up "trading down" to everyone's mystification. They set themselves up by trying to date while married, eliminating anyone who tries to be careful who because of circumstances never take you seriously, or they end up dating people who just don't have any standards or is kind of desperate, and everyone is saying, What does he see in her? I say this as having dated separated men, my fair share, myself. I was already friends with two of them and acquaintances with one. They did all divorce, and 2 out of 3, it wasn't them who was cheating prior to separating. The other I didn't know was married because he had one of those he never trotted out in public. Most of his friends didn't even know he was married. I terminated that pronto but stayed friends. 

The only one I had serious intentions on was the acquaintance who I wasn't prior friends yet. I knew it was his wife who initiated the divorce. So I didn't judge him on that, but wish I'd understood he was free for the first time since high school before getting serious with him...And going through a separation/divorce as a girlfriend is NO fun. And, by the way, his next wife was a psychotic disaster who he thought was a good deal because she'd been to cooking school. She ended up in prison with her next husband for credit card fraud of her own husband and kid. 

It's very hard for someone with any pride to withstand going through separation with someone. You have to be very low on the anxiety scale or really desperate, and I wasn't.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I know, but I don't think I can past the point that it is written is such a way to make all the circumstances convenient for her adultery. Of course the dude she has the affair with is like the best looking guy alive. Like make the guy be Paul Giamatti, now that would be a show! It just seems dishonest. I don't mind the cheating, that's life, it's the dishonesty I don't like. I want to watch it cause I love the premise but not if I am going to be pissed off the whole time. I will probably continue to give it a try. Funny my Dad who cheated told me it was good. Sigh..
> 
> At this point I am starting to think Ronald Moore is kind of a douche, it was the same with Battlestar Galactica which was his show. He always seemed to create the most extremely impossible situations to allow the main characters to make immoral choices that because of circumstances were ambiguous. This story falls right in his wheelhouse, but that whole kind of story telling seems dishonest. I mean are well really challenging social mores if we have to present improbable scenarios to do so?


And in addition to gratuitous rapes which are difficult to watch... but yes... I agree that what’s considered entertainment value is spotty at best and I do wonder about the state of society that we (me personally as well with the shows I like) consider these types of things good to watch with popcorn... I barely bat an eye at them anymore.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> It's pretty putrid stuff. And if it were reversed, it would be roundly criticized in the media.


God a story like that would be glorious. 

I really want a story where the affair interest is ugly and fat too. Just to see the outrage everyone would be in. 

They need to do a TV show like Black Mirror but where they take all these tropes and turn them on their head. 

Like I want a story from the fiance' point of view in the romcom who is dumped by the protagonist for an out of work painter who she meets because they mixed up phones in the airport. You know the dude with the "heart of gold", who is living with his mom because he just hasn't been loved enough. The main character is the guy in those movies the heroine is always dumping to go for the love of her life, he is a super successful lawyer whose whole life was dedicated to this vapid women. It needs to star James Marsden.

Tell me the aftermath of that story honestly, when 2 years later she comes back divorced with a kid, living in a one bedroom apartment and the dangerous dude has already moved on to his next magical relationship. How she made the biggest mistake of her life. 

Make it so part of the climax of the end of the movie is, he has now met someone new who is just kind of a nice girl without all the drama, but have this old flame show up, then play off the fact that in the romcom he would take the old flame back. But in my story a wiser James Marsden character, humors her but basically tells her to go scratch - 

Her (through tears): "I've grown up, I have learned so much. You really were always he love of my life I was just too stupid to see it!"
Him (dumbfounded): "Well thanks, but your really aren't mine."

She goes away crying, but the joke is the next day she calls to tell him she will be alright because she has just met and fallen in love with the love of her life, an out of work drug addicted Shock Jock who she has never spoken to, but she sees in a coma while she is delivering flowers. James stares at the phone dumbfounded shaking his head knowing what a bullet he has dodged, then goes back to his extraordinarily normal soon to be excelent wife.

Tell the story of the aftermath of being dumped for a Disney fairy tale and make it a comedy. Now that's a movie I want to see. 

Another one, tell the story where the heroine ends up with the Han Solo anti-hero, who ends up in jail for murder and robbery. Haha! Please tell that story. Now I love Han Solo and I hate the Sequels but lets be honest, the dudes ending in those story where he basically goes back to being a loser smuggler, loses the Millennium Falcon in a bet, his kid is dysfunctional and hates him eventually killing him, is the most realistic thing in all the Star Wars movies, which is probably why most of us hate them so much.

NOW THAT IS HOW YOU DO A THREAD JACK!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I really believe this is how people you know end up "trading down" to everyone's mystification. They set themselves up by trying to date while married, eliminating anyone who tries to be careful who because of circumstances never take you seriously, or they end up dating people who just don't have any standards or is kind of desperate, and everyone is saying, What does he see in her? I say this as having dated separated men, my fair share, myself. I was already friends with two of them and acquaintances with one. They did all divorce, and 2 out of 3, it wasn't them who was cheating prior to separating. The other I didn't know was married because he had one of those he never trotted out in public. Most of his friends didn't even know he was married. I terminated that pronto but stayed friends.
> 
> The only one I had serious intentions on was the acquaintance who I wasn't prior friends yet. I knew it was his wife who initiated the divorce. So I didn't judge him on that, but wish I'd understood he was free for the first time since high school before getting serious with him...And going through a separation/divorce as a girlfriend is NO fun. And, by the way, his next wife was a psychotic disaster who he thought was a good deal because she'd been to cooking school. She ended up in prison with her next husband for credit card fraud of her own husband and kid.
> 
> It's very hard for someone with any pride to withstand going through separation with someone. You have to be very low on the anxiety scale or really desperate, and I wasn't.


I think it's more like, the ones who won't up with cheating usually do better because, 

1. the know their worth.
2. they are comfortable enough to be alone so they don't make choices out of loneliness.
3. they have high standards.

But I think a lot of that serves them in the first place so they have a better chance in marrying someone who has high character so the marriage lasts. Meaning there are not a lot of those type of people on the market. 

Maybe you should look for a widower. 

I know I sound like and ass, but I am very jaded about all this stuff.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> And in addition to gratuitous rapes which are difficult to watch... but yes... I agree that what’s considered entertainment value is spotty at best and I do wonder about the state of society that we (me personally as well with the shows I like) consider these types of things good to watch with popcorn... I barely bat an eye at them anymore.


I read that too, then I read that rape is kind of a staple of women's romance novels. WTF? Really? Those books are not my thing so... I was just trying to see if I should stay with the show or not. 

I am growing to feel a very large part of our society is just F'ed up and wants to be treated badly or something.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The thing about Outlander is the author could have made the future dude her boyfriend not her husband, but kept everything else the same, and that would have eliminated any controversy which leads me to believe making him being her husband was intentional as to heighten the naughtiness of it all. 

I read she goes back to the 20th century in like the 4th season so I was trying to give the benefit that maybe it was a literary device to discuss the aftermath of infidelity and that would be awsome and really a common practics on how science fiction is used. However, then reading reviews and stuff it just doesn't seemly sophisticated and nuanced enough to be so. Just seems like kind of a trashy novel with some sci-fi elements.

I would actually like a story that had some nuance.

That is another trope I hate, they always make the spouse that is cheated on the worst possible type of human being to justify it, which is what I hear the books do to her husband. Like the dude is like a slave runner or something, so how could she NOT cheat on him. But that begs the question, what kind of person would she have to be to marry a slave runner. They never make the spouse cheated on just a normal ordinary person because it destroys the illusion. See I don't mind movies that say - look adultery is exciting and fun, which I am sure is true, as long as they show the destruction too.

Do a story where Paul Giamatti is cheated on for Brad Pitt, and then dumps the wife like a bag of rocks, but Brad Pitt gives the wife and subsequently Paul Giamatti aids. Now that is a ****ing story I want to watch!

Ha ha but then I am one a evil SOAB.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> read that too, then I read that rape is kind of a staple of women's romance novels. WTF? Really? Those books are not my think so...


It’s a little discussed fact but known in psychology circles that rape is a rather common fantasy among many women. I have no explanation for this and wouldn’t care to speculate. A number of studies have found about four in 10 women admit having them with a median frequency of about once a month. Pair this with the popularity of novels among women like 50 Shades of Grey (about a billionaire man sadistically dominating a sexually inexperienced woman) and you’re confronted with a puzzling set of facts.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> It’s a little discussed fact but known in psychology circles that rape is a rather common fantasy among many women. I have no explanation for this and wouldn’t care to speculate. A number of studies have found about four in 10 women admit having them with a median frequency of about once a month. Pair this with the popularity of novels among women like 50 Shades of Grey (about a billionaire man sadistically dominating a sexually inexperienced woman) and you’re confronted with a puzzling set of facts.


Well I think it needs to be said that fantasy and reality are two different things and most people may have one but not really want the other.

I mean maybe in a twisted sense it's about being desired? I mean I guess if I stretched it I could see it like wanting to be a cowboy or action hero with all the adventure without the reality of all the aftermath of what the violence would be like in real life. Grand Theft Auto comes to mind. 

But this begs the question is raping a common fantasy among men? I mean not that I know of. 

People are weird though that is for sure.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I think it's more like, the ones who won't up with cheating usually do better because,
> 
> 1. the know their worth.
> 2. they are comfortable enough to be alone so they don't make choices out of loneliness.
> ...


Oh, I'm well past the point of dating (68 and used to living on my own), but I think you're right about that. I've always been super independent, enough so that I was never sure I even wanted to get married and didn't have too many illusions about the guys I dated. Who I like and who would make a good husband are too different things. I really am not flexible enough to share a life with anyone I've yet met! I loved musicians but I always knew the ones I loved were not responsible enough that I'd want to marry one. I was the responsible one. They were fun and charming and creative and kind of helpless otherwise, and that's fine. But not for a husband! I know there are exceptions. 

I doubt you're any more jaded than I am.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I read that too, then I read that rape is kind of a staple of women's romance novels. WTF? Really? Those books are not my thing so... I was just trying to see if I should stay with the show or not.
> 
> I am growing to feel a very large part of our society is just F'ed up and wants to be treated badly or something.


I confess I haven't read a romance novel in 50 years, but I think that whole "forceful male" thing simply stems from Victorian era, when it wasn't fitting for women to lust, so the only way they would be getting in that position is if someone was "sweeping them off their feet" or whatever. It's an old theme. In novels, not actually carried out usually, I don't think.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Well I think it needs to be said that fantasy and reality are two different things and most people may have one but not really want the other.


Yeah I don’t think it means women who are having these fantasies actually want to be raped.

I don’t think the reverse fantasy is very common among men, but It does seem porn is becoming increasingly violent and degrading toward women. Psychologists have explained that the addictive nature of visual porn has led to needing a stronger and stronger “hit” thus more degrading and extreme acts as one goes down the rabbit hole. 

There’s plenty written about male use of porn, but not about the female equivalent. Again, I can’t speculate bc I’m not a woman.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I read that too, then I read that rape is kind of a staple of women's romance novels. WTF? Really? Those books are not my thing so... I was just trying to see if I should stay with the show or not.
> 
> I am growing to feel a very large part of our society is just F'ed up and wants to be treated badly or something.


Well, apparently women like to read some interesting things because the number one consumer of gay male romance fiction? Middle aged hetero married women.... I doubt these women want to be gay males, just like they don’t actually want to be raped, but there is something taboo enough about them that it makes it sexy? Don’t ask me, I don’t get it!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> Yeah I don’t think it means women who are having these fantasies actually want to be raped.
> 
> I don’t think the reverse fantasy is very common among men, but It does seem porn is becoming increasingly violent and degrading toward women. Psychologists have explained that the addictive nature of visual porn has led to needing a stronger and stronger “hit” thus more degrading and extreme acts as one goes down the rabbit hole.
> 
> There’s plenty written about male use of porn, but not about the female equivalent. Again, I can’t speculate bc I’m not a woman.


I wouldn't be surprised if porn is typical gateway for lots of women who have affairs. It seems like a lot of affairs are kind of porny as they progress. I often wonder if some women are exposed to it late in life and are not expecting to be titillated by some of the more crass aspects of it but don't know how to handle that, so they seek it out. And lets be honest most Men have grown up with it now a days so they know how to "handle" it better, if that makes any sense. Maybe they are desensitized.

I suspect the younger generation won't have these issues and porn is pretty ubiquitous, they will have other issues.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> Well, apparently women like to read some interesting things because the number one consumer of gay male romance fiction? Middle aged hetero married women.... I doubt these women want to be gay males, just like they don’t actually want to be raped, but there is something taboo enough about them that it makes it sexy? Don’t ask me, I don’t get it!


Maybe it's the emotional aspect of the men in those books? 

Who knows, People are weird.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Thumos said:


> It’s a little discussed fact but known in psychology circles that rape is a rather common fantasy among many women. I have no explanation for this and wouldn’t care to speculate. A number of studies have found about four in 10 women admit having them with a median frequency of about once a month. Pair this with the popularity of novels among women like 50 Shades of Grey (about a billionaire man sadistically dominating a sexually inexperienced woman) and you’re confronted with a puzzling set of facts.


I've had those fantasies as long as i can remember. I always felt ashamed of it and didn't realize it was so common at first. I thought i was a freak. Apparently some of the more degrading and violent porn stars and video series are very popular with women. So much for "woman's porn" having a "romantic" storyline!


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if porn is typical gateway for lots of women who have affairs. It seems like a lot of affairs are kind of porny as they progress. I often wonder if some women are exposed to it late in life and are not expecting to be titillated by some of the more crass aspects of it but don't know how to handle that, so they seek it out. And lets be honest most Men have grown up with it now a days so they know how to "handle" it better, if that makes any sense. Maybe they are desensitized.
> 
> I suspect the younger generation won't have these issues and porn is pretty ubiquitous, they will have other issues.


there is a fairy tale aspect to these escapist type novels where it’s catering to the baser desires, feeling desired by a strong man who takes what he wants or feeling those fantasy butterflies that usually die after the first year or few of a relationship. I personally value the deeper committed love over the high of infatuation, which I’ve never really trusted... so I read everything with a skeptic mind.

But, for a female who is prone to really start enjoying that kind of thing... I’d say the behavior and motivation is already there but maybe the books sort of add fuel to that fire. It’s possible.

I read voraciously and have read every imaginable genre there is right down to “alien romance” which I assure you is actual thing. The fixation of “shape shifting romance” is simply beastiality, however they can’t come out and write beastiality with most publishers... hence “shape shifters”. They can’t publish incest but there is a crap ton of “step romance” involving daddy’s and brothers. Women have kinks that are many and varied, and I find it fascinating, can’t say I’ve read more than a few chapters of many of the genres but I like to try to understand the draw. I’d say it’s the equivalent of the back end for men? Or maybe two women at the same time? And the invention of e-readers has made all this weird stuff so very accessible, and secretive.

I wish I could say my reading has resulted in a better understanding of these topics but no, people are just weird. That’s it. (And I’m weird for being so fascinated)


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> there is a fairy tale aspect to these escapist type novels where it’s catering to the baser desires, feeling desired by a strong man who takes what he wants or feeling those fantasy butterflies that usually die after the first year or few of a relationship. I personally value the deeper committed love over the high of infatuation, which I’ve never really trusted... so I read everything with a skeptic mind.
> 
> But, for a female who is prone to really start enjoying that kind of thing... I’d say the behavior and motivation is already there but maybe the books sort of add fuel to that fire. It’s possible.
> 
> ...


Yeah there is a whole genre of self published books about that stuff. But look at the top searches on pornhub now a day. The step thing isn't gender specific.

The strong man thing is no surprise which is why I often say that a passive man is a huge turn off to his wife. Most women would rather you be a tiny bit too strong then to be passive. It just is.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Yeah there is a whole genre of self published books about that stuff. But look at the top searches on pornhub now a day. The step thing isn't gender specific.
> 
> The strong man thing is no surprise which is why I often say that a passive man is a huge turn off to his wife. Most women would rather you be a tiny bit too strong then to be passive. It just is.


Yes, I think it's safer for men to err on the side of too strong/dominant than too weak/passive. Your relationship may depend on it.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Have you guys heard about that Bloomberg reporter who left her husband to pursue a "relationship" with price-gouging ex-Pharma exec Martin Shkreli. He sort of led her on and now is totally ghosting her. From prison.

Even though she has effectively nothing with this guy (who is in prison), she has dumped her husband, lost her career, is basically a laughing stock on social media, she continues to defending the douchebag and claiming they have a relationship.

It very much sounds like one of these awful stories being discussed.

I blame Wuthering Heights for providing a romantic prototype for this kind of **** that has just been copied over and over. The aloof asshole that a woman is essentially prepared to destroy her marriage, family and herself for. It is essentially repeated in some form over and over in this branch of literary porn for women and in real life by women who have been brought up with this as a romantic ideal.

Of course, guys are always losing their **** and chasing after women with a load of wreckage in their wake. We just don't sensationalise it because we recognise it is pathetic and undeserving of any attention.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Have you guys heard about that Bloomberg reporter who left her husband to pursue a "relationship" with price-gouging ex-Pharma exec Martin Shkreli. He sort of led her on and now is totally ghosting her. From prison.
> 
> Even though she has effectively nothing with this guy (who is in prison), she has dumped her husband, lost her career, is basically a laughing stock on social media, she continues to defending the douchebag and claiming they have a relationship.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, she froze her eggs so she won’t be too old to have his kids when he gets out of prison. Their first kiss was shared on a prison visit... she insists that he’s just having a moment by not communicating with her and she will still “be here for him.”

What about Larsa Pippens new boyfriend who happens to be half her age and married with a young kid (and an NBA player). This guys wife finds out she’s being cheated on by seeing pictures splashed all over the media of her husband holding hands with Larsa who is Scottie Pippen’s ex (whom she is divorcing/divorced from because she cheated on him with a rapper... allegedly). 
As far as her 24 year old boyfriend, “Larsa didn’t know anything, she thought he was getting divorced.” Well, he is now...Better yet he just pleaded guilty to felony threats and narcotics charges, and kicked his wife and kid out of the house when she filed for divorce... apparently she needs better lawyers.

Cheating is just another way to date for a lot of people apparently.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Some people love blowing themselves up and screw those caught in the blast.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

I think there must be just some kind of genuine genetic self destructiveness in some people. It reminds me of that scene from There Will Be Blood when the main character says “I hate most people...there are times when I look at people and I see nothing worth liking.” Some people are just genuine misanthropists who hate people, hate themselves and want to watch the world burn.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> It didn’t even occur to me that this was a thing until in couples counseling one of the reasons my H gave for being weary of reconciliation was that I might decide to have an affair on him in the future. I thought at the time he just doesn’t know me at all if this is what he thinks, but I guess it really is a thing!?!? Pretty interesting that a cheater would be so afraid of being cheated on, but also I guess I understand people wanting to inflict that pain on the cheater. I just personally don’t have it in me to have sex with someone I don’t love.


Because they know they are capable of it, they assume everyone else would do it too.

I think there's also an ego thing going on too. It's okay for THEM to cheat, but how DARE anyone cheat on THEM!


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Because they know they are capable of it, they assume everyone else would do it too.
> 
> I think there's also an ego thing going on too. It's okay for THEM to cheat, but how DARE anyone cheat on THEM!


So true! Total hypocrisy. I’m convinced that having first hand experience with the high of cheating and sneaking and lying and betraying and LIKING every minute of it gives them special insight into what they would HATE to have done to them. 

The funny thing is, a RA wouldn’t even destroy him the way I was destroyed... he doesn’t have the capability of being vulnerable and open enough to love the way I do. He’s afraid of a watered down version of heartbreak. Laughable.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

If someone really loves you and doesn't just love you for sex or housekeeping or cooking or whatever else they value, the very last thing in the world they want to do is anything that would hurt you. I've met precious few people who loved that well though. But I do think there's more women capable of that depth of caring. But there's certainly a lot out there who aren't too. 

I had my favorite aunt and her husband who were married for 50 or 60 years. He was unusual in how caring he was about everybody. Honestly it could be a little suffocating at times. For many years he was the only man I ever heard of who literally did 50% of the housework at least. He just seemed to worship the ground she walked on. 

But he got to drinking one time with a relative who had bad habits and liked to share them and the relative just pushed him to get drunk and basically shoved a country meal prostitute on him. And before he knew it he was getting a bj. 

When he realized what was going on, he was absolutely just destroyed and morose. Immediately confessed to his wife and never drank another drop and was just so humiliated and disgusted with himself. She knew that other relative and knew how much trouble he got in because some of us let her know just exactly how much trouble he could get in and what kind of people he had hang around. Her husband was always going and visiting the elderly people just checking on them and that was the thanks he got. 

I think the only thing my aunt did was tell him to stop drinking but I don't think she really blamed him for what happened which is fine. I've never seen someone so sorry in my life. So now I know what true remorse looks like, and I've not seen it since!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Have you guys heard about that Bloomberg reporter who left her husband to pursue a "relationship" with price-gouging ex-Pharma exec Martin Shkreli. He sort of led her on and now is totally ghosting her. From prison.


Well how much do you read from today's reporters? I mean many of them read to me like they have personality disorders, particularly if they write for blogs. I am not even kidding. 

I suspect besides politics, and entertainment it's the industry who has the largest amount of self important narcissist around. Hell it really is entertainment. I think a lot of these news types were want to be actors without talent who fell into journalism because they looked good on camera and had practice. I think she is just one of a long line who thought she was smarter then she really was. I believe she was trying to play him and now she can promote her upcoming book. He figured it out and dumped her. But if ever two people belonged together. 

As for her husband, how much better off is he then to be married to that garbage. Serious that is addition by subtraction there.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> Oh yes, she froze her eggs so she won’t be too old to have his kids when he gets out of prison. Their first kiss was shared on a prison visit... she insists that he’s just having a moment by not communicating with her and she will still “be here for him.”
> 
> What about Larsa Pippens new boyfriend who happens to be half her age and married with a young kid (and an NBA player). This guys wife finds out she’s being cheated on by seeing pictures splashed all over the media of her husband holding hands with Larsa who is Scottie Pippen’s ex (whom she is divorcing/divorced from because she cheated on him with a rapper... allegedly).
> As far as her 24 year old boyfriend, “Larsa didn’t know anything, she thought he was getting divorced.” Well, he is now...Better yet he just pleaded guilty to felony threats and narcotics charges, and kicked his wife and kid out of the house when she filed for divorce... apparently she needs better lawyers.
> ...


For a women marrying a pro athlete is like a man marrying a prostitute. Good luck.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thumos said:


> I think there must be just some kind of genuine genetic self destructiveness in some people. It reminds me of that scene from There Will Be Blood when the main character says “I hate most people...there are times when I look at people and I see nothing worth liking.” Some people are just genuine misanthropists who hate people, hate themselves and want to watch the world burn.


They are a less evolved human or scarily maybe more evolved. They don't have the empathy gene, or the one that causes shame.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> The funny thing is, a RA wouldn’t even destroy him the way I was destroyed... he doesn’t have the capability of being vulnerable and open enough to love the way I do. He’s afraid of a watered down version of heartbreak. Laughable.


But I think this is a good thing to understand and it's very good that you get that. I think we have a tendency to think they get away with it, but imagine going through life and only being able taste about 10% of the flavors of food? If you are foodie like me imagine what a loss that would be, how much your life would be diminished because of it. Now imagine the same thing but with love and relationships.

To me, this picture is a lot of what love is.









It's about giving even when you are angry, but there is a deeper idea to this. The type of person who cheats probably looks at this picture and thinks, well the dude is getting wet he is stupid. And some may think love is about giving and getting nothing in return. But I really don't think that is true. Part of what makes love wonderful is you get to forget about yourself in the doing, and in doing so you transform yourself, and your reality. You become something better then you are. Love give you the privilege to be something more then you would normally be. You actually get as much in the giving as you do in the receiving.

The type of people who cheat, if they never change they will never understand or feel those things. That is a greater loss then even a marriage or a relationship. The irony is they are desperately seeking this, but it's beyond their grasp because they don't understand it. So they think when we are talking about love we are talking about the initial excitement you feel, the infatuation, all the fun things about the beginning of love. When we talk to them we say the same word but we are thinking of two totally different things. 

What they seek is the desert kind of things in a relationship, to go back to my food analogy. That can be a great and wonderful experience but it doesn't provide much nourishment. True love is the kind where you eat the full meal and when you are done you feel fulfilled, or that great restaurant that you went to and you can still remember. You don't get or understand that if all you want to eat is McDonald's.

So they don't get away with it, they are truly lost.

I think it's a universal truth that you can't really feel truly love unless you are able to truly and unselfishly give it. 

Anyway - 2 cents.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> So they think when we are talking about love we are talking about the initial excitement you feel, the infatuation, all the fun things about the beginning of love. When we talk to them we say the same word but we are thinking of two totally different things.


This x1000. That is exactly it... butterflies and infatuation are a chemical cocktail that can be achieved with just about anyone. We measure love with a vastly different metric. Well said. And when I allow myself to think about it, I do feel sorry for them, empty shells fixated on the high like a junkie.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> This x1000. That is exactly it... butterflies and infatuation are a chemical cocktail that can be achieved with just about anyone. We measure love with a vastly different metric. Well said. And when I allow myself to think about it, I do feel sorry for them, empty shells fixated on the high like a junkie.


Yep love is not that feeling you get that you absolutely want to be with a person at all cost, like the songs are about. That is infatuation.

But it really explains how people can cheat and opine about being deeply in love and then get caught and turn on a dime. The suddenly care nothing for their affair partner and are supposedly once again deeply in love with their spouse. What they really feel for their spouse who is now leaving them is desperation. They mistake that as love, because it's the same kind of desperation to want to be with someone. It ain't love though.

Which is also why it's a pretty good tell if a WS gets it when they truly want what is best for the BS even if it means they that spouse needs to leave them. When I hear a WS say, if they need to leave me to be happy then so be it, then I know they are starting to get it.


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## Kathlene (Nov 14, 2020)

I'll chime in since I cheated on my husband. Yes, he got nice over the years and yes he became a pushover. He almost became Mr. Mom. If I could give any man advice, it would be to always stay masculine so us women can stay feminine. When a man is too feminine, it causes us women to get more masculine and that makes us uncomfortable. Some of us can't handle it. I used to wish my husband would be more assertive. I wish he would take charge during sex more. I wanted him to lead and not agree with everything I said. I wanted him to tell me no sometimes. He needed to be a man. I swear I would have been on my knees every night if he would have done that. It doesn't excuse my cheating but that's the main reason why I decided to step outside my marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Kathlene said:


> I'll chime in since I cheated on my husband. Yes, he got nice over the years and yes he became a pushover. He almost became Mr. Mom. If I could give any man advice, it would be to always stay masculine so us women can stay feminine. When a man is too feminine, it causes us women to get more masculine and that makes us uncomfortable. Some of us can't handle it. I used to wish my husband would be more assertive. I wish he would take charge during sex more. I wanted him to lead and not agree with everything I said. I wanted him to tell me no sometimes. He needed to be a man. I swear I would have been on my knees every night if he would have done that. It doesn't excuse my cheating but that's the main reason why I decided to step outside my marriage.


Millennial men especially need to get this. Women test, you need to be strong and pass.

@*Kathlene. *I dare you to go back to your thread. I have some questions for you. I won't be mean, but I won't be nice either. If you willful enough to have an affair because you are pissed at your husband you can hear some mean words from strangers on the internet And you need to hear it so you can get better. You need to do better and I think you know that.


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## Kathlene (Nov 14, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Millennial men especially need to get this. Women test, you need to be strong and pass.
> 
> @*Kathlene. *I dare you to go back to your thread. I have some questions for you. I won't be mean, but I won't be nice either. If you willful enough to have an affair because you are pissed at your husband you can hear some mean words from strangers on the internet And you need to hear it so you can get better. You need to do better and I think you know that.


I'm working on reading and trying to be better. I just felt it wasn't helpful to keep responding to my thread since it kept getting derailed and I got some harassing and perverted dms.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Kathlene said:


> I'm working on reading and trying to be better. I just felt it wasn't helpful to keep responding to my thread since it kept getting derailed and I got some harassing and perverted dms.


What are you doing exactly?

More importantly why?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kathlene said:


> I'll chime in since I cheated on my husband. Yes, he got nice over the years and yes he became a pushover. He almost became Mr. Mom. If I could give any man advice, it would be to always stay masculine so us women can stay feminine. When a man is too feminine, it causes us women to get more masculine and that makes us uncomfortable. Some of us can't handle it. I used to wish my husband would be more assertive. I wish he would take charge during sex more. I wanted him to lead and not agree with everything I said. I wanted him to tell me no sometimes. He needed to be a man. I swear I would have been on my knees every night if he would have done that. It doesn't excuse my cheating but that's the main reason why I decided to step outside my marriage.


My husband is the “alpha male” that everyone seems to want. His AP had many of the same gripes about her husband as you just stated.

In my mind it has Jack **** to do with alpha knuckle dragging dominance, and everything to do with selfish people and doormat people drawing each other. And the reason it works is the doormat always is the sucker that forgives and makes it work. Tries and tries, mortgaging a piece of their soul every time. Two selfish people use each other up and burn out in short order... but no, it takes much much longer to use up a person thats willing to give their heart and soul in full.

I won’t drag you through the mud, but I will say I don’t think you cheated because of anything that man did or did not do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> My husband is the “alpha male” that everyone seems to want. His AP had many of the same gripes about her husband as you just stated.
> 
> In my mind it has Jack **** to do with alpha knuckle dragging dominance, and everything to do with selfish people and doormat people drawing each other. And the reason it works is the doormat always is the sucker that forgives and makes it work. Tries and tries, mortgaging a piece of their soul every time. Two selfish people use each other up and burn out in short order... but no, it takes much much longer to use up a person thats willing to give their heart and soul in full.
> 
> I won’t drag you through the mud, but I will say I don’t think you cheated because of anything that man did or did not do.


My point was more about being a leader, not jumping out of planes. A good leader puts others needs before their own.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> My point was more about being a leader, not jumping out of planes. A good leader puts others needs before their own.


I get that, and I agree. I just think though a lot of people are getting caught up in this “alpha male” scenario which seems more like a toxic masculinity complex to me. But I do understand what you’re saying. It’s also very possible that the whole masculinity alpha thing triggers me. 😂


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Cheating is a fundamentally selfish act. Claiming you did it because your partner was too agreeable and passive makes you look like a sociopath.

It really does seem that some women want to be married to unicorns - men who are simultaneously caring and respectful yet dominant and sexually aggressive.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OK now we are thread jacking for real. So since this is my post I ask you to lay off. Besides we all said this to her already in the thread she started. Maybe we can help her see why she is wrong if we talk to her about what she feels.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

sokillme said:


> OK now we are thread jacking for real. So since this is my post I ask you to lay off. Besides we all said this to her already in the thread she started. Maybe we can help her see why she is wrong if we talk to her about what she feels.


Just responding to what has been written in this thread.

Two things:

1. I don't care about helping cheaters.
2. You can ask me to lay off if you'd like, but you don't own the thread. It is okay for you to respond to her posts here and not others?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I know, but I don't think I can past the point that it is written is such a way to make all the circumstances convenient for her adultery. Of course the dude she has the affair with is like the best looking guy alive. Like make the guy be Paul Giamatti, now that would be a show! It just seems dishonest. I don't mind the cheating, that's life, it's the dishonesty I don't like. I want to watch it cause I love the premise but not if I am going to be pissed off the whole time. I will probably continue to give it a try. Funny my Dad who cheated told me it was good. Sigh..
> 
> At this point I am starting to think Ronald Moore is kind of a douche, it was the same with Battlestar Galactica which was his show. He always seemed to create the most extremely impossible situations to allow the main characters to make immoral choices that because of circumstances were ambiguous. This story falls right in his wheelhouse, but that whole kind of story telling seems dishonest. I mean are well really challenging social mores if we have to present improbable scenarios to do so?


Warning: minor Outlander spoiler:

Regarding Outlander... she was transported to the 1700s Scotland. Life is precarious. She married Jamie in an arranged marriage to literally save her life. After that, she does fall in love with him. Being transported to the 1700s -- that's some serious **** and not a regular life situation. It's more about being married to two different people in two different times than cheating. She does wear two wedding rings throughout her life, to symbolize her split existence.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Thumos said:


> I don’t know if high EQ, loyalty, kindness, decency and empathy invite being betrayed but there’s definitely merit to the original post in terms of what happens after DDAY.
> 
> far too many men like myself fall into a bit of a nice guy trap after DDAY. And far too many betrayed women can’t harden up because their natural nurturing tendencies and kindness put them at a disadvantage to a cheating husband willing to take advantage.
> 
> ...


I think one of the most devastating things is when people are forced to lose their idealism about love.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think one of the most devastating things is when people are forced to lose their idealism about love.


They don't just lose it but in the end they think they were mistaken to have it in the first place. As someone who that happened to I know that is how I feel, and I am not sure that is a bad thing. 

Love before being cheated on is an innocent love, you just can't get that back.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Have you guys heard about that Bloomberg reporter who left her husband to pursue a "relationship" with price-gouging ex-Pharma exec Martin Shkreli. He sort of led her on and now is totally ghosting her. From prison.
> 
> Even though she has effectively nothing with this guy (who is in prison), she has dumped her husband, lost her career, is basically a laughing stock on social media, she continues to defending the douchebag and claiming they have a relationship.
> 
> ...


Some women really crave their emotional high from drama. Criminality is one of the greatest aphrodisiacs.


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