# Why do some guys believe in soulmates?



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

I get it, we're fed the same Disney fairy-tale crap as women are growing up. Although women get it reinforced from a million different directions. Rom-coms, books, songs, I can understand why so many women buy into it. It feels good, fits right into the idea of romance, it's just like they dreamed.

But why guys? A lot of us were taught to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny, but we outgrew it. Guys are supposed to be logical, we learn things like math which disproves things like this. 

I'm sure there's several reasons, least of which is more guys are being raised in fatherless homes. I can also see where lack of experience could be a factor if the guy hasn't had many partners. But what else could it be?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The only thing I hate worse than hearing a woman wants to find her soulmate is that she is “independent”.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> I get it, we're fed the same Disney fairy-tale crap as women are growing up. Although women get it reinforced from a million different directions. Rom-coms, books, songs, I can understand why so many women buy into it. It feels good, fits right into the idea of romance, it's just like they dreamed.
> 
> But why guys? A lot of us were taught to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny, but we outgrew it. Guys are supposed to be logical, we learn things like math which disproves things like this.
> 
> I'm sure there's several reasons, least of which is more guys are being raised in fatherless homes. I can also see where lack of experience could be a factor if the guy hasn't had many partners. But what else could it be?


You do realize the misogynistic overtones of that whole post, don't you?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Cletus said:


> You do realize the misogynistic overtones of that whole post, don't you?


Pointing out differences between men and women isn't misogynistic. Who are the primary consumers of romance related content?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> A lot of us were taught to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny, but we outgrew it. Guys are supposed to be logical, we learn things like math which disproves things like this.





Cletus said:


> You do realize the misogynistic overtones of that whole post, don't you?


I thought you had a technical background? Don't you remember the math classes that were too hard for any woman where they disproved the easter bunny and romance?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

SpinyNorman said:


> I thought you had a technical background? Don't you remember the math classes that were too hard for any woman where they disproved the easter bunny and romance?


Not any woman, just the hot ones.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

A lot of butthurt on here so far.

Look I'm just asking why. If it's just feels and you don't care about stats, that's fine. If it ties in with your religion and you think god brought her to you then praise Jeebus. 

But why embrace such a scarce mindset?


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> The only thing I hate worse than hearing a woman wants to find her soulmate is that she is “independent”.


What do you mean by that? 

This is a genuine question because I consider myself an independent woman.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

For the same reason you don't have to eat from every single tray at the buffet. If one particular food looks better, smells better, and stimulates your taste buds more than any other why would you waste what little time you get here on Earth dabbling in second best?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Al_Bundy said:


> A lot of butthurt on here so far.












Also a BIG no to soulmates....but that doesn't preclude God bringing two people together. ''What thou hast, was it not given?''.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> A lot of butthurt on here so far.


If you're talking about me, no.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I don't know why it's being sold or bought but romantic notions and fantasies have been around for quite some time.

I bought into a more idealistic view until I experienced differently and woke up to what was going on.

Probably happens similarly with the ladies. Are there a lot of women believing in soul mates into maturity?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> This is a genuine question because I consider myself an independent woman.


But.... Why do we never hear men saying that phrase? I've never heard a man say, I'm an independent man. Why?


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Livvie said:


> But.... Why do we never hear men saying that phrase? I've never heard a man say, I'm an independent man. Why?


I don't know why!!!

I didn't know it was bad for a woman to say she's independent. In my mind my understanding of independence is to be able to survive without anyone's help. I imagine myself without my husband or my family and I think I can make it on my own. It doesn't mean I want to, but I believe I could. I have the skills and resorces to make choices on my own and survive on my own. 

Am I wrong for thinking this way?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Livvie said:


> But.... Why do we never hear men saying that phrase? I've never heard a man say, I'm an independent man. Why?


I guess the same reason why no men ever say "I am gonna take her to the cleaners" when divorcing....


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

"She's my soulmate" = "The way dat girl put it on me, Ajax won't it take off".


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Livvie said:


> But.... Why do we never hear men saying that phrase? I've never heard a man say, I'm an independent man. Why?


Here you go.






I'm an Independent Man - Mokyo


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> This is a genuine question because I consider myself an independent woman.


Well, there you go. I have never once thought of myself as an “independent” man.

What does that even mean? Were you once enslaved? A Siamese twin, joined at the hip? Are not most women free?
Why do you consider yourself an “independent” woman? What is the significance of this word that you hold so dearly you label yourself as that?
Why not a hard working woman?
A sophisticated lady? A beautiful woman?
A loyal woman? An honest woman?

I have no idea what the significance of this word means to women, since I’m not one, I suppose.

I have, however, noticed a strong correlation with certain traits and women who claim they are “independent” women. And no, I am not all that fired up about elaborating, I’ll just say that few of these traits are ones that I find attractive. Not that anyone would care. Just an observation. And I mean no offense to you.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Story for the men that underestimate the strength and influence of women:

Delilah--Hey Sammy, come over here, put you head in my lap and let me trim your hair.
Bonnie--Clyde you always take for a ride on Wednesday mornings.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I like to think of us as cell mates, hopefully serving a life sentence together.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> View attachment 75209
> 
> 
> Also a BIG no to soulmates....but that doesn't preclude God bringing two people together. ''What thou hast, was it not given?''.


He did for us.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I don't know why it's being sold or bought but romantic notions and fantasies have been around for quite some time.
> 
> I bought into a more idealistic view until I experienced differently and woke up to what was going on.
> 
> Probably happens similarly with the ladies. Are there a lot of women believing in soul mates into maturity?


To me a soul mate is someone you meet and just click with immediately and feel as if you have known them all your life. You can just talk and talk and feel totally relaxed with them from the start.
You know they are the one you want to be with/marry.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

No. Do not believe in soulmates


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Al_Bundy said:


> I get it, we're fed the same Disney fairy-tale crap as women are growing up. Although women get it reinforced from a million different directions. Rom-coms, books, songs, I can understand why so many women buy into it. It feels good, fits right into the idea of romance, it's just like they dreamed.
> 
> But why guys? A lot of us were taught to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny, but we outgrew it. Guys are supposed to be logical, we learn things like math which disproves things like this.
> 
> I'm sure there's several reasons, least of which is more guys are being raised in fatherless homes. I can also see where lack of experience could be a factor if the guy hasn't had many partners. But what else could it be?


I don't believe in the "traditional" idea of a soulmate, as you seem to be describing it. I find myself in that rare moment of agreeing with part of what Diana7 said.



Diana7 said:


> To me a soul mate is someone you meet and just click with immediately and feel as if you have known them all your life. You can just talk and talk and feel totally relaxed with them from the start.


For me, a souldmate isn't automatically marriage material. They are also the people who become your best friends or your siblings even though you don't share either parent. I have 5 soulmates. 3 are indeed my spouses, but I have two others, whom I call my brother and sister (who oddly enough married later. I have so much fun throwing people off with that). We have been together since high school, so about 35+ years. Still going strong.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I thought that by definition, a man as defined included being independent.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I thought that by definition, a man as defined included being independent.


Then why are so many men stuck in marriages they are completely unhappy in, because they are afraid of change and afraid of "being alone"?

That doesn't sound independent.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> I get it, we're fed the same Disney fairy-tale crap as women are growing up. Although women get it reinforced from a million different directions. Rom-coms, books, songs, I can understand why so many women buy into it. It feels good, fits right into the idea of romance, it's just like they dreamed.
> 
> But why guys? A lot of us were taught to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny, but we outgrew it. Guys are supposed to be logical, we learn things like math which disproves things like this.
> 
> I'm sure there's several reasons, least of which is more guys are being raised in fatherless homes. I can also see where lack of experience could be a factor if the guy hasn't had many partners. But what else could it be?


come on, every action hero has his soul mate. it is all over your masculine, logical world, as opposite to our feminie, emotional, illogical world... lol


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> Pointing out differences between men and women isn't misogynistic. Who are the primary consumers of romance related content?


it's like women don't do math. at least by your post..


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## Manner1067 (Feb 22, 2021)

I think there are a lot of misconceptions here ...

while the idea of a "soul mate" is pushed out there to some degree in romantic comedies, romance novels, etc. There are some competing narratives to be found in feminist literature, movies, and from woman-to-woman.

Guys still think women want soul mates or Prince Charming husbands. But here is the hard truth

1. Women don't want "commitment" from the men they strongly desire. Men who show loyalty, and who throw themselves at the girl they love, are viewed as weak and undesirable. Women want men that other woman want --and that other women are having (mimetic desire). My first couple years of college I was practically invisible to girls, until I started dating a 6 foot tall French Canadian girl. Then all of a sudden, I am hearing things from others about how girl X thought I was hot, or that some girl I never met wanted to date me and thought I was an impressive guy. 

2. This soul mate, transcendent idea of romance is a male construct. Men think in terms of one object of desire --women think in terms of a universe of "options". While a girl might get infatuated for a time, she will get bored and look elsewhere. She is taught that she is entitled to the best men, and a lot of them (in our culture). A man is a fool for telling a girl he loves her: unless it is your wife, saying those words diminishes you in her eyes, and will likely "scare her off" (to go look for other options). Men think of romance as something long-term and meaningful. Women think of it as ephemeral and indeterminate. Life is not a Shakespearean Sonnet

3. Women want to fulfill their sexual adventures in college and in their 20s, but then panic and "settle down" with a "nice reliable guy" (aka a guy with resources) when the 30s approach. Meanwhile, these guys are under the delusion that she finally found her "soul mate". Nope, she just found a provider.

we can try to explain this stuff away, get angry about it, put women on pedestals, attribute to them some altruistic desires they don't have, whatever, but this is the truth. The character traits that men hold in high value among themselves, such as honesty, honor, fidelity, a stoic mindset, reliability, etc. are NOT valued by women. Woman want excitement, sexual abandon, drama, intensity, and to be admired by other women. 

Now this is not because women have some inherent flaw: this is all cultural and ideological.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Manner1067 said:


> Woman want excitement, sexual abandon, drama, intensity, and to be admired by other women.
> 
> Now this is not because women have some inherent flaw: this is all cultural and ideological.


In related news, the guy who baits his hook with chicken guts has told me there are no trout in the lake.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> The only thing I hate worse than hearing a woman wants to find her soulmate is that she is “independent”.


Would you prefer the term 'self-sufficient'?


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## Manner1067 (Feb 22, 2021)

SpinyNorman said:


> In related news, the guy who baits his hook with chicken guts has told me there are no trout in the lake.


both are wrong: there are no fish in the lake at all


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Not all women believe in "soul-mates" in the Disney-romance sense of "the one" that she'll find through magical chance and then everything will be unicorns and fairy dust for the rest of their lives. Just as not all guys believe in finding "the one" that he'll hand a bunch of flowers to, marry, then never have to pay attention to again for the rest of his life while she devotes herself to keeping his home perfectly to his liking, sexing him up like a ravenous porn start on the daily, and bringing home a great (but not as great as his own, of course) income. 

Both are fantasies that tend to be the purview of people who are either emotionally immature or just lazy and selfish. With some maturity, experience, self-reflection and awareness, it generally becomes clear to most emotionally healthy adults that "the one" or the "soul mate" might be someone you connect with nearly instantly. But that you still have to be fundamentally compatible, and then both willing put forth effort to be good partners, in order to form a functional relationship that works for you both. Anyone who thinks finding their soul mate - or "the one" or "the perfect guy/gal" - is the end of the work, rather than recognizing it's just the beginning of it, isn't someone you want to be in a relationship with. Whether a woman or a man.

But maybe I only think that because I can do math....


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I don't know why it's being sold or bought but romantic notions and fantasies have been around for quite some time.
> 
> I bought into a more idealistic view until I experienced differently and woke up to what was going on.
> 
> Probably happens similarly with the ladies. Are there a lot of women believing in soul mates into maturity?


I don't amd never did.

But I was never much into romance novels and I hated soap operas.

Even now I can't stand chick flicks....with maybe a few exceptions. Like When Harry Met Sally 😀


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

My math skills are probably in the top 2% of TAM users and I believe in God and also (I think) in the concept of "soul mates" (whatever that means). When I met my wife I knew she was special and had proposed to her within a year of meeting. Coming up on our third decade together. I'm sure I'm in the top 99% of TAM users in procreating children too- lol. So yeah, _major life stress_ but we're still together and I expect we will be- to the very end... I love her as much as ever and enjoy sex with her as much as ever- maybe more (shocking to some- I know).


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> it's like women don't do math. at least by your post..


How did I manage a degree in physics while not being able to do math?

Apparently it's a $64,000 question 🤣


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> How did I manage a degree in physics while not being able to do math?
> 
> Apparently it's a $64,000 question 🤣


The $64,000 question first aired in 1955. In today's dollars, that's a $632,542.09 question. Which, if you could do math, you would know.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

No such thing. We all can believe whatever, but just because we "believe" doesn't make it true. There's strong pheromones bonding between individuals, fuelled by endorphins in the brain receptors, but that's it. It is a biological indication that for the purpose of procreation the two individuals are more compatible than with the rest of the population.This help the couple to maintain the union at least until the progeny is able to fend for themselves ideally.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> The $64,000 question first aired in 1955. In today's dollars, that's a $632,542.09 question. Which, if you could do math, you would know.


Touche.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rob_1 said:


> No such thing. We all can believe whatever, but just because we "believe" doesn't make it true. There's strong pheromones bonding between individuals, fuelled by endorphins in the brain receptors, but that's it. It is a biological indication that for the purpose of procreation the two individuals are more compatible than with the rest of the population.This help the couple to maintain the union at least until the progeny is able to fend for themselves ideally.


So maybe "soulmate" is really chemistry?

Obviously we gel with some people better than others. I've just never liked the use of "soul mate" to describe romantic partners, and often singular (as if there's only one).

Such a match....one that you mix well with, could be anyone, anywhere, any age. The idea that it must be a singular romantic partner is teenager nonsense.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't amd never did.
> 
> But I was never much into romance novels and I hated soap operas.
> 
> Even now I can't stand chick flicks....with maybe a few exceptions. Like When Harry Met Sally 😀


I don't think I ever bought into the soul mate idea but I was definitely idealistic when younger and got a little down for a while when my illusions were revealed. I like being able to look back with a mature perspective and see things in a more positive light.

I never watched When Harry met Sally but I love Billy Crystal and had a little celeb crush on Meg during my teens.🙂


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that most of us could and have been self sufficient in many ways. I was a single mum of three for 6 years but I am much happier married despite that. I am really not sure what an 'independant woman' really is unless its one who really isnt interested in any sort of relationship and wants to be alone and make all her own decisions, but as my husband will tell you I am a very strong minded person with a strong character and he is the much more easy going person, a typical Aussie really. Despite our differences I see as as soul mates if you want to call it that. I knew in less that a week that I wanted to marry him.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Then why are so many men stuck in marriages they are completely unhappy in, because they are afraid of change and afraid of "being alone"?
> 
> That doesn't sound independent.


Hey, I can't 'splain others actions 🙄🙂🙂.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I don't think I ever bought into the soul mate idea but I was definitely idealistic when younger and got a little down for a while when my illusions were revealed. I like being able to look back with a mature perspective and see things in a more positive light.
> 
> I never watched When Harry met Sally but I love Billy Crystal and had a little celeb crush on Meg during my teens.🙂


Back before she became an alien after too much surgery.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I think that most of us could and have been self sufficient in many ways. I was a single mum of three for 6 years but I am much happier married despite that. I am really not sure what an 'independant woman' really is unless its one who really isnt interested in any sort of relationship and wants to be alone and make all her own decisions, but as my husband will tell you I am a very strong minded person with a strong character and he is the much more easy going person, a typical Aussie really. Despite our differences I see as as soul mates if you want to call it that. I knew in less that a week that I wanted to marry him.


Yeah, to me independent only means that you can manage on your own.

I can take care of myself but that doesn't mean my life isn't better with a great partner.

I don't know why anyone would want a partner who can't manage on their own.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> How did I manage a degree in physics while not being able to do math?
> 
> Apparently it's a $64,000 question 🤣


I was waiting. lol You actually went rather easy on him.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> What does that even mean? Were you once enslaved? A Siamese twin, joined at the hip? Are not most women free?


Actually, a lot of women are not free around the world, even in the western hemisphere.

The thing is you don't know my background, but if you knew I think you would understand where I'm coming from.

Some women feel proud of calling themselves independent because it has been a battle to become independent.

I grew up in a very "machista" and religious society. My 70 year old mother has never been independent. She depends on my dad 100%. This is very sad and frustrating to watch. 


Evinrude58 said:


> Why do you consider yourself an “independent” woman? What is the significance of this word that you hold so dearly you label yourself as that?
> Why not a hard working woman?
> A sophisticated lady? A beautiful woman?
> A loyal woman? An honest woman?


Becoming independent has been hard work for me and I guess for other women as well. Not only physically but emotionally. You can be beautiful, hard working, sophisticated, loyal, honest, and at the same time not independent. My own mother has all those qualities but she's not independent. She's like a little pretty bird in a cage. This is heart wrenching to see.

I'm not offended. And please don't get offended because I'm giving my point of view based on my own experiences, nothing more. I can't stand some of the feminist or feminazi behaviors out there. I'm definitely not one of them. 

Thank you for the explanation. It makes sense in this environment.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I was waiting. lol You actually went rather easy on him.


Sometimes humor is the best response 🤣


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, to me independent only means that you can manage on your own.
> 
> I can take care of myself but that doesn't mean my life isn't better with a great partner.
> 
> *I don't know why anyone would want a partner who can't manage on their own.*


And, yet, so many people seem to choose partners who can't manage on their own and then seem surprised and upset because.....their partner can't manage on their own. It's like 'Come, on! You _knew_ that job was dangerous when you took it!'


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rowan said:


> And, yet, so many people seem to choose partners who can't manage on their own and then seem surprised and upset because.....their partner can't manage on their own. It's like 'Come, on! You _knew_ that job was dangerous when you took it!'


And then when they have to pay alimony because they picked a partner who couldn't manage on their own they'll be railing against how unfair the system is.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

WandaJ said:


> it's like women don't do math. at least by your post..


That's called click bait. Or I guess thread bait in this context.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> Actually, a lot of women are not free around the world, even in the western hemisphere.
> 
> The thing is you don't know my background, but if you knew I think you would understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


This is where a cultural difference starts to come into play. I can totally see why it would be important to you given your background and your culture.

That said, when I hear a woman make a point to say that she's independent, it normally (not always, but often enough for it to give me caution) indicates she is high maintenance, without a willingness to answer over her actions to her partner. It may seem like a caricature, but it is far more common than many would like to acknowledge. 

That's fine, as long as they don't want to be in relationship. Where it gets tricky is when they want all of the benefits of a relationship, without any of the obligations.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> This is where a cultural difference starts to come into play. I can totally see why it would be important to you given your background and your culture.
> 
> That said, when I hear a woman make a point to say that she's independent, it normally (not always, but often enough for it to give me caution) indicates she is high maintenance, without a willingness to answer over her actions to her partner. It may seem like a caricature, but it is far more common than many would like to acknowledge.
> 
> ...


Agreed, independent has been co-opted by people who are exactly the opposite (govt assistance, alimony, etc...). The same thing happened to "thick" where at one time it meant having nice curves, now it means bigger than the UFC Heavyweight champ.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Would you prefer the term 'self-sufficient'?


Indeed I would.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> Agreed, independent has been co-opted by people who are exactly the opposite (govt assistance, alimony, etc...). The same thing happened to "thick" where at one time it meant having nice curves, now it means bigger than the UFC Heavyweight champ.


really? we must be living in different worlds. Independent means independent in my world - doesn't need anyone to pay her bills or to cook him dinner, or entertain because he/she is too not independent to spend saturday along...


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> Actually, a lot of women are not free around the world, even in the western hemisphere.
> 
> The thing is you don't know my background, but if you knew I think you would understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


This makes sense to me, and I have a new understanding of why some women who have been dependent on a man for many years and have worked hard at becoming self sufficient and not dependent on someone, would value their “independence”.
I have been enlightened. Thankyou.

might I say it seems like some women who have become self sufficient have a chip on their shoulder and seem like they have a lot of animosity toward men. But after my experience with women, I’ll admit I can be pretty prejudice against them at this point until I get to know them well. The ones that start off with the “independent” label have almost invariably had self-centered, feminist attitudes that don’t exactly inspire a lot of interest from me.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> This makes sense to me, and I have a new understanding of why some women who have been dependent on a man for many years and have worked hard at becoming self sufficient and not dependent on someone, would value their “independence”.
> I have been enlightened. Thankyou.
> 
> might I say it seems like some women who have become self sufficient have a chip on their shoulder and seem like they have a lot of animosity toward men. But after my experience with women, I’ll admit I can be pretty prejudice against them at this point until I get to know them well. The ones that start off with the “independent” label have almost invariably had self-centered, feminist attitudes that don’t exactly inspire a lot of interest from me.


There's a rule in writing, "show, don't tell". A lot of American women are all tell and no show.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

WandaJ said:


> really? we must be living in different worlds. Independent means independent in my world - doesn't need anyone to pay her bills or to cook him dinner, or entertain because he/she is too not independent to spend saturday along...


I'm not saying it's not out there, same as finding someone in shape. I think what Evinrude and I are saying is when we see someone who just has to tell you (or post on social) how independent they are, then that's a warning flag.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> And then when they have to pay alimony because they picked a partner who couldn't manage on their own they'll be railing against how unfair the system is.


I think that managing alone is far more that just financially though. A person may have a good wage but panic at the thought of living alone. Of having to do everything and make all the decisions. Of having to be a lone parent.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's called click bait. Or I guess thread bait in this context.


Check the rules. Baiting people is not allowed.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> Check the rules. Baiting people is not allowed.


Then consider it good copy.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I have no issues with bring in a marriage where each depends on the other for things. Isn't that what a good marriage is? Each using their different strengths for each other and using the total income for the good of the marriage?
I can't see the point to committing to marriage if you are both going to live independently.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I have no issues with bring in a marriage where each depends on the other for things. Isn't that what a good marriage is? Each using their different strengths for each other and using the total income for the good of the marriage?
> I can't see the point to committing to marriage if you are both going to live independently.


We might be saying the same thing, but I prefer the idea of complementing each other versus depending on each other. If both people could easily walk away but choose not to, that's a stronger bond than a situation where one or both people are dependent on each other.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> We might be saying the same thing, but I prefer the idea of complementing each other versus depending on each other. If both people could easily walk away but choose not to, that's a stronger bond than a situation where one or both people are dependent on each other.


My wife always wants to hear that I couldn't live without her.

She's not very receptive to the argument that my choosing to be with her when I could just as easily be alone is even better.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> This is where a cultural difference starts to come into play. I can totally see why it would be important to you given your background and your culture.
> 
> That said, when I hear a woman make a point to say that she's independent, it normally (not always, but often enough for it to give me caution) indicates she is high maintenance, without a willingness to answer over her actions to her partner. It may seem like a caricature, but it is far more common than many would like to acknowledge.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to lie I'm cautious of high maintenance men and women. I'm not one of them.

I'm independent in a sense I feel I'm self sufficient, I can survive on my own if I had to. I'm a stay at home mom most of the time, and I depend financially on my husband. We have made financial decisions to help my roll as a stay at home mom. He'll be paying alimony if he decides to divorce me. That was a decision we both made for our family. I don't know what will happen tomorrow, but that's a risk we are both aware of.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Livvie said:


> But.... Why do we never hear men saying that phrase? I've never heard a man say, I'm an independent man. Why?


Because men are expected to be independent so it's a pretty weak flex. Might as well say we wipe our own butts.

Men are used to being the ones who get a call when things go wrong. I know plenty of grown females that call themselves independent but the moment there is a problem, there is some guy she is gonna call to take care of it. Her dad, her husband, ex BF, some orbiter, someone. Men don't often have that luxury.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

There are billions of women in the world, I don’t believe that there is an ordained “one” that you trip across.

My wife is a great lady and if something happened to me I’m sure she wouldn’t want to be by herself forever. Would that next guy be “better” for her than I am? Maybe...

So yeah I don’t buy into it.

With that said it has always been important for her to be able to earn a living on her own even though my income is a large multiple of hers she could certainly get by. Her mom taught her not to rely on a man and she still doesn’t at least not financially.

If she did she would have a lot more fun in her life but unfortunately for her I think she’s incapable of it. I think if I was a tradwife married to me I’d be at the country club pool right now having a watermelon drink with a nice shot of Bacardi.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Because men are expected to be independent so it's a pretty weak flex. Might as well say we wipe our own butts.
> 
> Men are used to being the ones who get a call when things go wrong. I know plenty of grown females that call themselves independent but the moment there is a problem, there is some guy she is gonna call to take care of it. Her dad, her husband, ex BF, some orbiter, someone. Men don't often have that luxury.


I suppose that's generally true, although I've observed that a lot of men don't actually want to call someone for help.....I've heard it has something to do with a "grown ass man" asking for help. That's what several have said to me.

As for me, I've gotten pretty good at taking care of most things in my life that I reasonably can take care of (ie I don't have the skill to fix my own AC). 

Admittedly I do get my grown/almost grown sons to help me with some things. But in my defense they do live with me and I did take care of them....LOL.

They seem happy to help their mother.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

@lifeistooshort I agree. I'm not really the type of guy that would ask anyone for help either. I think that most men that have some measure of pride feel similarly. Unless we start to feel like our help is being abused, we do usually enjoy helping the ladies in our life.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> I suppose that's generally true, although I've observed that a lot of men don't actually want to call someone for help.....I've heard it has something to do with a "grown ass man" asking for help. That's what several have said to me.


It depends on the exact situation how it is viewed. It can be a sign of weakness or softness depending on what it is.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> @lifeistooshort I agree. I'm not really the type of guy that would ask anyone for help either. I think that most men that have some measure of pride feel similarly. Unless we start to feel like our help is being abused, we do usually enjoy helping the ladies in our life.


And while there are things I'm capable of doing I appreciate the men in my life being willing to help.

I've changed my own oil but I don't want to.....my son does it for me.

I can caulk my shower but my bf did it for me, and among other things he changes my bike flats for me.

I appreciate everything.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Then why are so many men stuck in marriages they are completely unhappy in, because they are afraid of change and afraid of "being alone"?
> 
> That doesn't sound independent.


The same reason there are so many women that won't leave their cheating abusive husband's.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

SpinyNorman said:


> In related news, the guy who baits his hook with chicken guts has told me there are no trout in the lake.


Crabs like that bait.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Benbutton said:


> The same reason there are so many women that won't leave their cheating abusive husband's.


Maybe you didn't read what I wrote that in response to. I wrote that in response to someone else saying that by definition a "man" is independent. So.... What you just said makes no sense in context.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Al_Bundy said:


> We might be saying the same thing, but I prefer the idea of complementing each other versus depending on each other. If both people could easily walk away but choose not to, that's a stronger bond than a situation where one or both people are dependent on each other.


I dont think there are many who could easily walk away from a loving marriage, even if they had the financial means to do so.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> And while there are things I'm capable of doing I appreciate the men in my life being willing to help.
> 
> I've changed my own oil but I don't want to.....my son does it for me.
> 
> ...


Agreed. When I was a single mum I had to do many things such as putting flat pack furniture together and deorating etc, but its so nice to have a husband who can do that, or we can do it together.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Maybe you didn't read what I wrote that in response to. I wrote that in response to someone else saying that by definition a "man" is independent. So.... What you just said makes no sense in context.


I was making a point regarding your over generalized comment.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Benbutton said:


> I was making a point regarding your over generalized comment.


I didn't make an overgeneralized comment, though. SOMEONE ELSE DID and I was pointing out the flaw in it.

That's okay, not everyone has good reading comprehension skills. I only wish you wouldn't drag me into your poor interpretation.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

For most of my life I never believed in soulmates, let alone love as it is, always thought of it as some willpower thing, to commit or some such. Of course then I met my now partner.

I believe I found my soulmate, I only ever learnt what love is when I met her too. For me the stars practically aligned for us, which can be seen as coincidental, which if it is, it's one hell of a coincidence. We complete each other in every way and that also brings conflict at times which challenges us. It doesn't guarantee we will be together forever, I hope so, but you know how it is.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> To me a soul mate is someone you meet and just click with immediately and feel as if you have known them all your life. You can just talk and talk and feel totally relaxed with them from the start.
> You know they are the one you want to be with/marry.


I got me one of them... only took me 56 years and a lot of growth to get there.

If to get what I have now meant all meant walking the same path I'd do it again in a heartbeat... I am not sure I could have grown the same way in different circumstances.

I'm sorry it was so hard on the other side of the relationship to be with the wrong person too.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> My wife always wants to hear that I couldn't live without her.
> 
> She's not very receptive to the argument that my choosing to be with her when I could just as easily be alone is even better.


Of course she does.

Of course she isn't.
Think about it, Cletus. She wants the reassurance that you're not going anywhere so she can carry on with business as usual. It's her comfort that matters.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> That's fine, as long as they don't want to be in relationship. Where it gets tricky is when they want all of the benefits of a relationship, without any of the obligations.


This seems to be a common theme for SO MANY different types of marriage problems...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Manner1067 said:


> I think there are a lot of misconceptions here ...
> 
> while the idea of a "soul mate" is pushed out there to some degree in romantic comedies, romance novels, etc. There are some competing narratives to be found in feminist literature, movies, and from woman-to-woman.
> 
> ...


Everything you've written here is the POLAR OPPOSITE of MY values and how I feel and how I lived my life. 

Is there any room in your thinking (and the thinking of the men who believe this about "ALL women") for the concept that you might be completely wrong about how many women think and what they actually want...??


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Is there any room in your thinking (and the thinking of the men who believe this about "ALL women") for the concept that you might be completely wrong about how many women think and what they actually want...??


OMG, I'm guilty as charged.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Is there any room in your thinking (and the thinking of the men who believe this about "ALL women") for the concept that you might be completely wrong about how many women think and what they actually want...??


I can't claim to know what goes on inside women's heads. I think a lot of what manner1067 wrote was based on observation of what women _do._ And, just as with men, what people say and what they do are often very different. We go: "hmm. she says she likes guys who are good listeners. But she always dates guys who are the opposite". We observe.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> I can't claim to know what goes on inside women's heads. I think a lot of what manner1067 wrote was based on observation of what women _do._ And, just as with men, what people say and what they do are often very different. We go: "hmm. she says she likes guys who are good listeners. But she always dates guys who are the opposite". We observe.


This is very true...and that's why I wrote that I haven't lived my life that way at all. And I know many women who also haven't. 
I am just wondering why men who say things so absolutely the way he did in that post (and others), seem to believe that women like ME just do not exist. He claimed what he wrote was a "Hard Truth"...but it's simply NOT. He is WRONG.

Are the genuine, appreciative, loyal women around men who believe these things about "ALL" women just invisible to them?


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

My belief in this is rather simple. Soulmates do not exist, but rather many good matches.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> No such thing. We all can believe whatever, but just because we "believe" doesn't make it true. There's strong pheromones bonding between individuals, fuelled by endorphins in the brain receptors, but that's it. It is a biological indication that for the purpose of procreation the two individuals are more compatible than with the rest of the population.This help the couple to maintain the union at least until the progeny is able to fend for themselves ideally.


Humans are more than the sum of their biological parts. Naturally, human relationships are too.


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## Manner1067 (Feb 22, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> This is very true...and that's why I wrote that I haven't lived my life that way at all. And I know many women who also haven't.
> I am just wondering why men who say things so absolutely the way he did in that post (and others), seem to believe that women like ME just do not exist. He claimed what he wrote was a "Hard Truth"...but it's simply NOT. He is WRONG.
> 
> Are the genuine, appreciative, loyal women around men who believe these things about "ALL" women just invisible to them?


but Lisa, these are the messages sent to men by women. These issues are reflected in our culture: faithful men who make good husbands and fathers are depicted as undesirable, boring, or even abusive. Bad boys and philanderers are shown as exciting, desirable, etc. 

That doesn't mean every woman is swayed by this stuff, but we need to pay attention to how women act, and not what they say

One only needs to pick up a women's magazine to see the dynamics I outlined in action. 

I think men are under this delusion that girls are seeking faithful soul mates and honest Prince Charmings. Girls don't want the Jonas Brothers:they want Motley Crue

sure, this is generalization, but it is a reflection of our culture and society.

Even my wife had her fun back in the day: she was an actress, got involved with a few bad boys I'm sure, had a few ONS, etc. By the time we started dating she wanted something deep, lasting, etc. She wanted the "good guy". And it worked out for us as we have been happily married for 20 years, but I don't let her push feminist nonsense on me ever, because I remind her of the hypergamous game she played in her 20s. She is damn lucky things worked out for her.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Manner1067 said:


> but Lisa, these are the messages sent to men by women. These issues are reflected in our culture: faithful men who make good husbands and fathers are depicted as undesirable, boring, or even abusive. Bad boys and philanderers are shown as exciting, desirable, etc.
> 
> That doesn't mean every woman is swayed by this stuff, but we need to pay attention to how women act, and not what they say
> 
> ...


I get it. I know WHY. But how does making such a sweeping generalization about ALL women, when you know you are exaggerating (for effect?), do anything but antagonize the people who read it who are NOT the way you are claiming they are??

And I agree we need to pay attention to how PEOPLE act, and not just what they say, with women AND MEN. Because MEN are the ones who have been historically more likely to use and dump women once they get what they want...at least based on what I've seen. I still don't believe ALL men are like that...and do you know what? I avoid ANY man who seems like he would do that (or anything so superficial). I don't care what he looks like, or what money he has, if he's a piece of crap as a person, he's the most unattractive man in the room. Men seem to struggle with that concept.

And I suspect it's the men who label and complain about women being users who tend to go for the hottest chick that makes their crotch tingle and seems unavailable, instead of someone who is attractive, honest, sweet, and less of a challenge...oh, and less of a status symbol for them. Even some of the advice on here from older men is that young men need to position themselves in their lives so they will have the best choice of women, and it's not usually nice personalities that they are talking about "top tier" women having -- they are usually saying so they can keep the hot, high-maintenance women happy and into them.

I just want you to know in your mind as you are posting things like that...YOU ARE WRONG that "ALL" women are like that, or even MOST. We are NOT.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> He did for us.


Wife and I likewise.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> No such thing. We all can believe whatever, but just because we "believe" doesn't make it true. There's strong pheromones bonding between individuals, fuelled by endorphins in the brain receptors, but that's it. It is a biological indication that for the purpose of procreation the two individuals are more compatible than with the rest of the population.This help the couple to maintain the union at least until the progeny is able to fend for themselves ideally.


There for the reverse is also correct. Just because you do not believe it so does not mean that is is not so!


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> And I suspect it's the men who label and complain about women being users who tend to go for the hottest chick that makes their crotch tingle and seems unavailable, instead of someone who is attractive, honest, sweet, and less of a challenge...oh, and less of a status symbol for them. *Even some of the advice on here from older men is that young men need to position themselves in their lives so they will have the best choice of women*, and it's not usually nice personalities that they are talking about "top tier" women having -- they are usually saying so they can keep the hot, high-maintenance women happy and into them.


I definitely give that advice to younger men, just advised a young man at work this very thing the other day. And yeah, you're right, part of that "best choice of women" does mean attractive. I've always been a good BSer (when I wanna be) so ladies always liked me a bit, even when I was young. However, I noticed in my early 30's that basically the dating world was completely open to me in a way that even in my 20's I wouldn't have imagined. Attractive younger ladies that would have been tough to get when I was 20 years old were literally throwing themselves at me. At 34, ladies from 19 all the way to mid 40's were showing interest, it was by far the most attention I ever got from so many different women. So, yeah, I will advise young men to get their life in order so they can reap the benefits of that hard work when they hit what seems to be the dating prime for most men. 

For the record, like most men, I do like attractive ladies, but I steer clear of the high maintenance ones. They drive me up a wall. Been there and done that.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Because my wife and i were Divinely orchestrated. The night i met my wife at a campsite with her parents, my wife left before i did. I spoke to her parents for a while longer. After i left, her dad told her mom, "That boy is gonna be your SinL. They did not tell us about it until reception after wedding.
We speak each others thoughts many times. Its like we can read what the other is thinking and speak it before they can. She will look at me and i know i just spoke exactly what she was thinking. I say, "It's scary ain't it?" She say "No, it just shows we are one"


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> Look I'm just asking why.



Social Conditioning.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> I can't claim to know what goes on inside women's heads. I think a lot of what manner1067 wrote was based on observation of what women _do._ And, just as with men, what people say and what they do are often very different. We go: "hmm. she says she likes guys who are good listeners. But she always dates guys who are the opposite". We observe.


This reminds me of Shirley Maclaine. She claims she had an affair with Robert Mitchum because she thought he came off as mysterious and must be a deep thinker. Nope, he just didn't have any thoughts. Live and learn.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

What the he** is a soulmate? Last time I checked, you date somebody, you don't find them THAT annoying, and then you decide to marry them or not.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Humans are more than the sum of their biological parts. Naturally, human relationships are too.


You will think so, don't you?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> I definitely give that advice to younger men, just advised a young man at work this very thing the other day. And yeah, you're right, part of that "best choice of women" does mean attractive. I've always been a good BSer (when I wanna be) so ladies always liked me a bit, even when I was young. However, I noticed in my early 30's that basically the dating world was completely open to me in a way that even in my 20's I wouldn't have imagined. Attractive younger ladies that would have been tough to get when I was 20 years old were literally throwing themselves at me. At 34, ladies from 19 all the way to mid 40's were showing interest, it was by far the most attention I ever got from so many different women. So, yeah, I will advise young men to get their life in order so they can reap the benefits of that hard work when they hit what seems to be the dating prime for most men.
> 
> For the record, like most men, I do like attractive ladies, but I steer clear of the high maintenance ones. They drive me up a wall. Been there and done that.


But you are missing my point...what you are calling "reaping the benefits" is lining up a bunch of high-maintenance gold-diggers to choose from, and then complaining that ALL women are high-maintenance gold-diggers.

And for the record as well -- most PEOPLE choose from those they are attracted to, of course. Again, that's not what I meant by pointing that out.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> But you are missing my point...what you are calling "reaping the benefits" is lining up a bunch of high-maintenance gold-diggers to choose from, and then complaining that ALL women are high-maintenance gold-diggers.
> 
> And for the record as well -- most PEOPLE choose from those they are attracted to, of course. Again, that's not what I meant by pointing that out.


Nah, I avoid the gold diggers. Maybe you would just be surprised at how many nice, attractive, and actually decent younger ladies are attracted to men in their 30's. Not high maintenance gold diggers, but decent, normal women.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Nah, I avoid the gold diggers. *Maybe you would just be surprised at how many nice, attractive, and actually decent younger ladies are attracted to men in their 30's.* Not high maintenance gold diggers, but decent, normal women.


Not at all...that's what I am saying and the entire point of my first post about this, which you are clearly missing again...I'm wondering if you READ it...?

What I commented on was how the poster was saying that "ALL" women were gold-diggers and hypergamous, etc etc, and that's what I took issue with -- ALL women are NOT like that.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Not at all...that's what I am saying and the entire point of my first post about this, which you are clearly missing again...I'm wondering if you READ it...?
> 
> What I commented on was how the poster was saying that "ALL" women were gold-diggers and hypergamous, etc etc, and that's what I took issue with -- ALL women are NOT like that.


Not all women can be gold diggers. Just like not all guys can be players. A 300lb woman might want to be but her options would be limited.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> What I commented on was how the poster was saying that "ALL" women were gold-diggers and hypergamous, etc etc, and that's what I took issue with -- ALL women are NOT like that.


I was at a wedding with my wife a few years back and we were giving one of her cousins a lift to the church. She told my wife (I am in the car) that she thought the only reason she married me was because of my money. Apparently she thought I had myself together enough then that she approved.

I started laughing.

My wife was like uh... we were completely broke when we got married.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I was at a wedding with my wife a few years back and we were giving one of her cousins a lift to the church. She told my wife (I am in the car) that she thought the only reason she married me was because of my money. Apparently she thought I had myself together enough then that she approved.
> 
> I started laughing.
> 
> My wife was like uh... we were completely broke when we got married.


Being broke isn't an issue, it's staying broke that sucks.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman wanting a guy who has potential especially if she wants a family. Probably drifting towards a different thread here.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> Not all women can be gold diggers. Just like not all guys can be players. A 300lb woman might want to be but her options would be limited.


Nobody mentioned 300lb women! 🙄


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Cletus said:


> You do realize the misogynistic overtones of that whole post, don't you?


How can it be misogynistic when it is the truth?


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Nobody mentioned 300lb women! 🙄


Hey don't talk about my ex-wife like that.... 😝


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Not at all...that's what I am saying and the entire point of my first post about this, which you are clearly missing again...I'm wondering if you READ it...?
> 
> What I commented on was how the poster was saying that "ALL" women were gold-diggers and hypergamous, etc etc, and that's what I took issue with -- ALL women are NOT like that.


Not all, just most...


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Manner1067 said:


> but Lisa, these are the messages sent to men by women. These issues are reflected in our culture: faithful men who make good husbands and fathers are depicted as undesirable, boring, or even abusive. Bad boys and philanderers are shown as exciting, desirable, etc.
> 
> That doesn't mean every woman is swayed by this stuff, but we need to pay attention to how women act, and not what they say
> 
> ...


Back when I was young I went through a lot of females and kick myself for letting a couple of them go, others dumped me and moved on to better looking, richer guys with fancy cars. I got tired of the games and married a girl who said she loved me, turns out she only wanted to get away from home so she used me to escape. We got divorced and once again I went through a number of women who moved on to what they considered better guys until I met my present wife online. The only complaint I have with her is that like most women her age, now 65, she is stuck in the 60's and 70's. I am not the usual 70 year old, I love metal music, Goth Bands and clubs, and am a biker (not bicycles) at heart... 

My 2nd wife was like yours, she lived a wild life with a lot of "bad boys", her first husband was sent to prison for armed robbery. she was 18. She told me she started having sex at 14 and by 20 had around 50 sex partners and lived a life that could have put her in prison for a lot of years. By the time I met her, in her early 50's she said after losing count of the sexual partners (she thinks 200 give or take) and close calls with the police, she decided to settle down and we met online on a dating website. She ended up losing most of her eyesight and is legally blind but can see a little, we lived together at first and I married her so she could have health insurance. We get along together great, oh sure we fight like cats and dogs occasionally but we mostly get along great, I am her eyes and she is my legs.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


Very aware. Got my red shades on finally.


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## Manner1067 (Feb 22, 2021)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


unfortunately, this is true

what we are seeing now, with technology (dating apps, etc.) is the universe of options for women has opened up tremendously. Decades ago, a girl's options were limited by her town, maybe city, etc. Now she can find men all over the world. Likewise, our culture teaches girls that they are special, entitled, and worthy of the best men (9s and 10s in terms of both looks and achievement). So they get with these hot bad-boys who will never commit, and end up miserable by the time they reach their late 20s.

And our culture & society teaches girls that they don't need to work on themselves, or obtain qualities that will make them attractive as wives and mothers. American women don't dress well, they have foul mouths and bad attitudes. They are lacking in etiquette and social graces, and are generally oblivious of culture. If you have lived in other countries, you will see the big difference.

it is a very bad time to be an average guy indeed. In the near future we will see virtual harems, as the top men monopolize groups of desperate women. I even think that polygamy will be legalized within a couple decades to allow wealthy men to have multiple wives. Many women would rather be a 2nd or 3rd wife to a multi-millionaire than married to some average dude who works 9-5

90%+ of my male friends are divorced (like 20 guys). They come from all walks of life. One of them is a really good looking guy with a 6 figure job and great personality: didn't matter. His wife used to run with pop stars and feels entitled, so she divorce-raped him. Another guy got cancer and his wife ditched him because he could no longer give her the romance and lifestyle she wanted (and they have 5 kids). 

We are moving into a new era, and the changes will be:

1. Marriage is a quaint thing for Boomers and Gen X: it is no longer a viable endeavor for the average guy, and is instead an extremely high-risk and reckless project. The divorce rate is going up and will skyrocket in the coming decade.
2. Retirement is a thing for previous generations: Millennials, Gen Y, etc. won't be able to "retire" when they are saddled with hundreds of thousands in student loan debt, a declining economy, technology replacing jobs, etc.

When 50%+ of guys are living in near poverty and do not have access to jobs or women, bad things will happen. When 10% of guys control the entire dating market and most of the wealth, the end game isn't going to be good.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Codependency is a form of doormatitus.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


Every time I read **** like this I think "define levels" because what most men consider 9/10s women are based entirely on physical appearance (beauty). She could be a bat **** crazy, raging alcoholic, with debt coming out of her ear but G dammit, she's hot so she is a 10. 

When I read red pillers say, "average woman thinks she's entitled to 9 and 10 guys", I assume they are saying "average looking women who may be mentally healthy, financially independent, with minimal baggage is interested only in mentally heathy, financially independent, with minimal baggage men (9/10s according to the red pill world). 

Maybe, just maybe, the lesson to young men should be to take some responsibility over your decisions and think with the big head. Take a WHOLE look at the woman you're with (superficial and deep) before you judge her as 9/10, average, or undesirable.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


Well..... Actual hypergamy does exist but it isn't like what you wrote here.

The data shows that the majority of women want a man they perceive as as high a status as themselves or higher.

Data also shows the man doesn't have to be wealthy but show good potential for achieving financial stability with a willingness to share with her.

Data also shows that most women aren't looking to trade up.

There are bad actors but that goes without saying for humanity.

I will admit that certain subcultures seem inundated with the women you are describing.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Lila said:


> Every time I read *** like this I think "define levels" because what most men consider 9/10s women are based entirely on physical appearance (beauty). She could be a bat *** crazy, raging alcoholic, with debt coming out of her ear but G dammit, she's hot so she is a 10.
> 
> When I read red pillers say, "average woman thinks she's entitled to 9 and 10 guys", I assume they are saying "average looking women who may be mentally healthy, financially independent, with minimal baggage is interested only in mentally healthy, financially independent, with minimal baggage men (9/10s according to the red pill world).
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, the lesson to young men should be to take some responsibility over your decisions and think with the big head. Take a WHOLE look at the woman you're with (superficial and deep) before you judge her as 9/10, average, or undesirable.


I agree with you, in most cases the 9/10 even down to the 8's women know they are good looking and they know it and would never be caught dead with an average guy and they also have the personality of a doorknob. True there are exceptions, I have known a few, (damn few). Back when I was living in Ohio, there was an old guy who was a biker (Outlaw MC) and he had an old lady named Jill. Jill was the kind of woman that stopped conversations when she walked into a room. She was super nice and talked to everyone and didn't act like she was above everyone. Everybody had the hots for Jill, she could have been a model, and she was totally in love with her man. She was in her early 20's and he was in his 50's and she stuck with him, through his health problems and was totally devoted to him. I knew another woman that was very pretty and she was another one who didn't act like it. She was just a normal girl, who liked to get down and dirty and work on bikes and cars and have fun. She was awesome and a good friend. Unfortunately those kind of females are about as rare as hen's teeth.
I have also known, and experienced the "average women" who were psycho *****es from hell and thought they deserved the higher rated men. They worked their way up the chain, even though the guys they started with had good jobs, were educated, had money, the women moved on as soon as a guy with lots more money came along. They did not want a guy who got his hands dirty for a job.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> I agree with you, in most cases the 9/10 even down to the 8's women know they are good looking and they know it and would never be caught dead with an average guy and they also have the personality of a doorknob. True there are exceptions, I have known a few, (damn few). Back when I was living in Ohio, there was an old guy who was a biker (Outlaw MC) and he had an old lady named Jill. Jill was the kind of woman that stopped conversations when she walked into a room. She was super nice and talked to everyone and didn't act like she was above everyone. Everybody had the hots for Jill, she could have been a model, and she was totally in love with her man. She was in her early 20's and he was in his 50's and she stuck with him, through his health problems and was totally devoted to him. I knew another woman that was very pretty and she was another one who didn't act like it. She was just a normal girl, who liked to get down and dirty and work on bikes and cars and have fun. She was awesome and a good friend. Unfortunately those kind of females are about as rare as hen's teeth.
> I have also known, and experienced the "average women" who were psycho *****es from hell and thought they deserved the higher rated men. They worked their way up the chain, even though the guys they started with had good jobs, were educated, had money, the women moved on as soon as a guy with lots more money came along. They did not want a guy who got his hands dirty for a job.


Hmmm. So all this story tells me is that some women can be ***holes. Some men are ***holes too. I know many, MANY men who have traded up (hotter/younger) at the first opportunity. Why? Because they can. As a red piller once told me "don't hate the player, hate the game".


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Unfortunately those kind of females are about as rare as hen's teeth.


Your generalizations are of course shaped by your life experience.

Mine has been very different. I grew up in a blue collar lower middle class family, but went straight to college out of high school. My associations were with motivated people working on improving their lives, following their passions, and making something of themselves.

My brother is divorced, but his ex wife is a saint who put up with his bipolar induced drug issues for 20 years. My sister married a man 20 years her senior and is still with him. I am in my first marriage of 35 years. I'm no catch, other than being stable and generally not a POS. 

My 20-something son is married to a decent girl he met in my daughter's dance class. She is a fine woman whom I would wish on anyone's son. My 20-something daughter is engaged to an Intel engineer who is borderline Aspergers, but a decent enough chap.

These batshit crazy *****es always looking to climb the man pole for a better version who think so highly of themselves that they cannot compromise? They don't exist in my world, or at least I haven't been exposed to many of them. If you're looking for teeth, perhaps the jaws of hens is the wrong place to expend your effort. Granted, I don't spend a lot of time with Outlaw MC gang members. YMMV.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Then why are so many men stuck in marriages they are completely unhappy in, because they are afraid of change and afraid of "being alone"?
> 
> That doesn't sound independent.


It most definitely doesn't sound independent. Not a circumstance to endure. 

Many who accept a situation they don't choose to be in but refuse to do the work to change their circumstances are an enigma. But common, granted.

If one chooses to stay, then should accept their own choice and embrace it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> I agree with you, in most cases the 9/10 even down to the 8's women know they are good looking and they know it and would never be caught dead with an average guy and they also have the personality of a doorknob. True there are exceptions, I have known a few, (damn few). Back when I was living in Ohio, there was an old guy who was a biker (Outlaw MC) and he had an old lady named Jill. Jill was the kind of woman that stopped conversations when she walked into a room. She was super nice and talked to everyone and didn't act like she was above everyone. Everybody had the hots for Jill, she could have been a model, and she was totally in love with her man. She was in her early 20's and he was in his 50's and she stuck with him, through his health problems and was totally devoted to him. I knew another woman that was very pretty and she was another one who didn't act like it. She was just a normal girl, who liked to get down and dirty and work on bikes and cars and have fun. She was awesome and a good friend. Unfortunately those kind of females are about as rare as hen's teeth.
> I have also known, and experienced the "average women" who were psycho *****es from hell and thought they deserved the higher rated men. They worked their way up the chain, even though the guys they started with had good jobs, were educated, had money, the women moved on as soon as a guy with lots more money came along. They did not want a guy who got his hands dirty for a job.


Well, for me I could always tell the difference. A lot of men can't, I blame that on our inability to use both our brain and penis at the same time.

Although controversial, this is why I categorised the women I met throughout my life, excluding the ones that you simply do not get involved in (as you call - psycho *****es from hell), category X - just don't go there! This also excludes just friends (strictly)
Category 1 is the type that you have a short term fling with - or even one night / with protection, category 2 are your friends with benefits, no possibility for any real relationship either than sex, category 3 are girlfriend material, but no real future. Category 4 is your wife material, while category 5 is soulmate material, reserved for the unicorns no one believes exists until they see one.

It is a pyramid when it comes to the availability of each category, but that isn't a problem. I think the issue is when men raised to be gentlemen have a minimum of treating women as at least category 3 despite their individual quality. Then once they are in a relationship with these women they believe by focusing on bettering themselves they would also improve the quality of their partners. Facepalm away. But this is life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Not all, just most...


Nope not even most. A few.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Benbutton said:


> My belief in this is rather simple. Soulmates do not exist, but rather many good matches.


God matches are a far above good matches.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> Ever hear of Hypergamy? It says a woman will stay with a man until a better man comes along. If you rate men and women on a scale of 1 to 10, most women are looking for the 9's and 10's men, even if the women are only average or 5 to 7 rated. The 9 and 10 rated men have it all, they can go out and pick out ANY WOMAN and show them a little attention and they have the woman eating out of their hands. Of course the lower rated women are just "hump and dump" fodder for the high level men. The 9's and 10's would NEVER consider the lower level women anything more than playthings and if they do choose to settle down it is only with a 9 or 10 female. Unfortunately, the lowly average women, having had a brief fling with a 9 or 10 male, think they are worth only that level of man and ignore all the average males around their actual level. Even if the average male manages to get the attention of a female on his level, he is screwed if a higher level male catches the eye of his woman and she will be gone before her undies hit the floor. The only way to secure a woman is to choose one that has finally been burned enough by the higher level men that they realize their fantasy man does not exist, of course these women are usually mentally a mess, or the man can choose way down and pick women that are way below his level that no one else wants.


Burned enough, iw. Passed around enough....no thanks. Or option 3 he finds a good girl that is looking for same. Or option #4...my option...found one that married at 16 to a cheating ass STBXH and catch her between seperation and divorce finalization.
Does not see herself as hottie but was the definition of. Sick of men with attitude. Wants a big ole country boy that is not the lead in a band with a bunch of groupies. 
She always tells me how sexy she thinks i am and can get a better deal. Just keep telling her she is the deal i want .


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> The only thing I hate worse than hearing a woman wants to find her soulmate is that she is “independent”.


The only thing I say when someone tells me they are are ‘independent’ is - “you mean like an ADULT?”


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