# My fathers secret



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I write this as I sit next to my fathers hospital bed as he suffers through the last of his life.

I learned this week that my father is a very strong man. He was always a bad dude and many people feared him. I'll summarize the story then fill in the new detail later. The story I tell is new to me because it was never spoken of till recently. I'm 46 now.
When I was 6 my parents were the center of a lot of neighborhood parties in North Jersey. We moved from there when my mother was raped during one of these parties by her sisters boyfriend when they went out for cigarettes. By the time I was 12 they were separated and my dad had slept on the couch for about 6 years.
My dad left a great job in jersey and has struggled ever since. My mother has always said she left because of being tired of struggling financially and my dad was bad with money.

The truth is we left Jersey because my father, upon learning what happened at the party the next day, went to guys house and waited hours till he came out. My father never asked him anything, he beat the man into a coma. The guy was out for a month and he had to be told what happened and he never fully recovered from the beating.
The story I got was that my father couldn't handle the rape of his wife and he kept bringing it up for years. Making my mother hate him eventually. Again none of this info came from my father. He never spoke of it till now.
My mother has dated many men and had a 6 year relationship with a married man while I was a teen. I remember going into a bar at 16 to find him to punch him out. Because of this sort of thing I moved out while still in high school.
My father has not one time in the 34 years dated a woman or even mentioned one. When I told him he should find a woman to be with he said he had a wife already. So he believed in his vows.

After coming to TAM, I looked at all the details of their breakup and I formulated a guess as to the truth of what happened. Armed with this I bagan asking some questions and here is what I found out....

At the party my father saw my mother flirting with this guy at some point they disappear and my father is pis sed off. He grilled her. She was afraid to tell the truth knowing my father is sometimes violent and she told him she was raped by this guy. My father handled him and we moved out of state shortly after that.

My father didn't believe the rape story and continued to bring it up. The facts did not match. He got trickle truthed and it made him crazy. My mother eventually left and began dating a married man. She became an alcoholic.

So during a fight after they are divorced she admits to cheating that night at the party.

I learned my mother has asked my father to reconcile several times long after they were divorced. My father said no. He told me he could never trust her again after all that. He loved her but he could not live with her knowing all of that.

So till this last hospital stay for my father! he would drive to my mothers house every day and get her paper from the end of the driveway and walk it to her door, set it there for her and leave without a word. They still visit family at the same time on holidays and are both living alone, both in their seventies.
Through the years if my mom had a problem with a man, she would call my dad and he made sure the guy never returned. He was scary.

Today I am amazed once again how destructive infidelity is to everyone involved. I can go on all day listing the ways it has affected my life. It would bore you. Let's just say I'm on TAM for a reason.

Thanks for reading the truth about my father.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow a 40 year old story...
I found it interesting and thank you for sharing.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

God Bless him.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

40 years ago a guy could get away with beating the snot out of the OM. These days it would cost you thousands of dollors and if you were lucky you would get propation. If a guy didn't have the dough he would surely end up doing time.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

That is just so sad. 

Lies. It's all about lies. And trust. With lies, there can be no trust.

I'm so sorry for what your Dad went through. I only wish he had help to overcome his mistrust and move forward with his life. In spite of all that happened, I hope that there were times when he was happy. I'm sure your very existence gave him joy.

There is no happy ending, but there is a chance to find peace. I hope that your Dad finds that peace.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

dogman said:


> I write this as I sit next to my fathers hospital bed as he suffers through the last of his life.
> 
> I learned this week that my father is a very strong man. He was always a bad dude and many people feared him. I'll summarize the story then fill in the new detail later. The story I tell is new to me because it was never spoken of till recently. I'm 46 now.
> When I was 6 my parents were the center of a lot of neighborhood parties in North Jersey. We moved from there when my mother was raped during one of these parties by her sisters boyfriend when they went out for cigarettes. By the time I was 12 they were separated and my dad had slept on the couch for about 6 years.
> ...


So sad.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I no longer speak to my mother. It's about a lot of stuff.

Also she's no where to be found at the hospital. Sometimes I just don't get some people even my mother.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks so much for everyone's kind words. 
It means a lot to me that people see his strength through this stuff.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Just wow. 

I think of this and from your mom's perspective, she must have harbored just an immense amount of guilt, not only for what she did to your father, but for the beating her AP took. Her lie caused him to to lie in a coma for a month (not that he didn't sort of deserve it).

But then, for her to ask your dad to rid her of other men, is just odd.

Your dad is quite an interesting fellow. God bless all of you.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

That is so sad and so tragic, and I'm so very sorry for you. Love, lies, deceipt, betrayal. It could be a Lifetime movie, but it's not. It's your life and your family. Your father truly loved your mother but he couldn't heal from her betrayal which was made worse by all of the continued lies and deceipt. I hope your father finally finds the peace that he has been denied all of these years. I wonder if it's possible, even now at this late hour, that he and your mother will find some peace and closure, together, before he passes. And, finally, if you haven't, yet, I hope for both your and your mother's sake, that you will one day find forgiveness in your heart for her, as well. Life is very short, but eternity is forever. Try never to take unfinished business into eternity with you or let it slip into eternity without you. Peace to you and your family, Dogman.

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'm sorry man.
Who knows what could happened had your mom told the truth, asked forgiveness and got her sh!t together...

Maybe beating that man to coma the day after the fake rape was actually the last straw. Instead she lied to the deep end, become alcoholic, promiscuous, used your Dad to get rid of "men" who treated her badly...

What a sad story. I believe the tragedy is despite asking that last chance she never tried to get healthier. Her place now was right beside your Dad's bed. At least a small gesture of gratitude.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Thank you for sharing that story. I wish more people understood the results of infedilty. Many think it is just about them, 

I hope this site helps you work through things. My wife had her A when are kids were adults. They still do not know about it to this day. I intend to take it to my grave. I want the hurt and pain to stop with my wife and I.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Just wow.
> 
> I think of this and from your mom's perspective, she must have harbored just an immense amount of guilt, not only for what she did to your father, but for the beating her AP took. Her lie caused him to to lie in a coma for a month (not that he didn't sort of deserve it).
> 
> ...


Thanks Gabriel,
Yeah my dad is very different. I know this story casts him in a good light but while his views on marriage are solid he was very tough guy. So he became the great protector, in fact he got in a fist fight in his seventies. He was protecting a good friend from pushy workmate. 
He's made a lot of mistakes but he had the right idea about marriage.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

the guy said:


> 40 years ago a guy could get away with beating the snot out of the OM. These days it would cost you thousands of dollors and if you were lucky you would get propation. If a guy didn't have the dough he would surely end up doing time.


Those were the days, right?
He was very lucky the guy couldn't remember the event or who did it.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I'm sorry man.
> Who knows what could happened had your mom told the truth, asked forgiveness and got her sh!t together...
> 
> Maybe beating that man to coma the day after the fake rape was actually the last straw. Instead she lied to the deep end, become alcoholic, promiscuous, used your Dad to get rid of "men" who treated her badly...
> ...


Acabado,
I agree, she has never taken responsibility for anything in her life. He taught me the meaning of fierce loyalty. She taught me things I needed therapy to get over.
I have not made peace with her because she is continuing to be a bad person. The wreckage is obvious from an objective point of view.
Thanks for the thoughts from all who responded.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> Acabado,
> I agree, she has never taken responsibility for anything in her life. He taught me the meaning of fierce loyalty. She taught me things I needed therapy to get over.
> I have not made peace with her because she is continuing to be a bad person. The wreckage is obvious from an objective point of view.
> Thanks for the thoughts from all who responded.


I had to rid myself of my mother a couple of years ago. I have enough drama in my own life without having to worry about her as if she's a child. I was always the mature responsible person, he is the person that whines about life sucking but doesnt try to do anything about it....just waits for something to happen. It was exhausting.

You are probably in a better place now to have stepped away from her when you did!!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I am sorry your father will be passing soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thor said:


> I am sorry your father will be passing soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Thor.
He's been held together by duct tape for years, surprises even the doctors. As he always says "every dog has their day"


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> Thanks Thor.
> He's been held together by duct tape for years, surprises even the doctors. As he always says "every dog has their day"


Dogman, just wanted to check on you and see how your father is doing?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What a man your father is!!

And women who lie about being raped are worst of the scum...They not only put a innocent man in prison(not in this case though, the OM d) but they also discredit actual rape victims when the truth eventually comes out..False rape accusations should be a jailable offense


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Dogman, just wanted to check on you and see how your father is doing?



Thanks for asking. Hes hanging on still. I'm splitting my time at work and the hospital. Still no sign of my mother. 

My father never took care of himself, when he was younger he was a natural athlete, but now has congestive heart issues and is on borrowed time. He is not expected to pull through this time. We're just waiting.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I think of this and from your mom's perspective, she must have harbored just an immense amount of guilt, not only for what she did to your father, but for the beating her AP took. Her lie caused him to to lie in a coma for a month (not that he didn't sort of deserve it).


Any man who openly flirts with another man's wife in front of her husband, and then has sex with her while she will be missed, is taking his life in his hands. He's lucky your father didn't carry a gun.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Any man who openly flirts with another man's wife in front of her husband, and then has sex with her while she will be missed, is taking his life in his hands. He's lucky your father didn't carry a gun.



Haha! He does now! I went to his house and went through it before having some people come in to clean, and I found three guns loaded and ready stashed around. He's funny. personally I think my father thought the guy was dead when he was done beating him. 

To tell you the truth I don't think the rape part of the story really affected what he would have done, the guy was gonna get a beating any way you slice it.

Oh well, after reading some threads on here I bet a lot of guys wish it was like the old days when you could get away with brawling like that.


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## Sean B (Aug 13, 2012)

dogman said:


> I bet a lot of guys wish it was like the old days when you could get away with brawling like that.


I wouldn't call it brawling, I'd say it was a man with a sense of honour. 

Anyway, feel sad about your dad. Immense amount of respect from me though. I believe he lived and will pass from this life with his head held high...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Sean B said:


> I wouldn't call it brawling, I'd say it was a man with a sense of honour.
> 
> Anyway, feel sad about your dad. Immense amount of respect from me though. I believe he lived and will pass from this life with his head held high...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, he always had my respect.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks to all of you who've read this thread.

He's gone now. I thinks it's Gods mercy finally.

I did find out a couple of things though. It may be of interest to all of you out there who are separated or divorced and starting to date again.

I found out my father had a girlfriend for years, I never knew.
When he swelled up very badly they almost had to cut off his pinky ring he always wore. I managed to get it off and hold it for him. It meant a lot to him, apparently it was from this girlfriend he told me she died of cancer many years ago and he continued to wear the ring till he died. 
They dated exclusively for many years but he felt it was disrespectful to my mother to have us meet her and see him with another woman.
He also suffered through the loss of her without a word to me or my 3 siblings.

One reason I always respected my dad was because of his fierce loyalty. One reason I always had trouble with my mother is she always thought of her own relationship first. For instance, she caused a family problem at my wedding. She wanted to invite the married man she was seeing and I said no way. I hated that phucker, he's the reason I moved out as a junior in high school.

Anyway...wheres the justice. Mom is still kicking and dad is gone. Even dads girlfriend who was content to adhere to his wishes in regard to his children, is gone by way of cancer.

Just remember your kids will remember who you put first, even when they're in their 40s.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> Thanks to all of you who've read this thread.
> 
> He's gone now. I thinks it's Gods mercy finally.
> 
> ...


Im so sorry for your loss Dogman!! Im glad you had the time with him that you had at the end. He seems like a hard but good man who has alot of love and compassion for his family.

Sadly I have noticed that the good ones get taken first.....its heartbreaking!

Thank you for sharing your story with us! Take care of yourself!


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Im so sorry for your loss Dogman!! Im glad you had the time with him that you had at the end. He seems like a hard but good man who has alot of love and compassion for his family.
> 
> Sadly I have noticed that the good ones get taken first.....its heartbreaking!
> 
> Thank you for sharing your story with us! Take care of yourself!


Thanks Letdown

I'm good, my head is screwed on nice and tight. 

It was nice to have the time I've had with him for the past....maybe... 9 months to a year. Before that not a lot of genuine interaction. Men can be funny that way. We can be kind of untouchable sometimes. All I know is I'll always put my kids and wife first.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> Thanks Letdown
> 
> I'm good, my head is screwed on nice and tight.
> 
> It was nice to have the time I've had with him for the past....maybe... 9 months to a year. Before that not a lot of genuine interaction. Men can be funny that way. We can be kind of untouchable sometimes. All I know is I'll always put my kids and wife first.


Men...untouchable?? HAHA! NO WAY!!


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Men...untouchable?? HAHA! NO WAY!!


No ones better at lying to themselves. Haha!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry for the loss brother, I guess only the good die young!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Sorry for the loss.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Dogman,

I recollect an old saying :" live so that when your children think of integrity and honesty, they think of you."

You remember your father!

May his soul rest in peace.

AU


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Dogman: I too had my childhood destroyed by infidelity, although in a much different way. I feel your pain and I'm sorry for your loss.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I am so sorry to read about your Father's passing.

I am happy to read he had a nice girlfriend!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

sounds like a guy I'd like to sit down over a nice frosted mug of beer with.

lost my father last christmas. I miss him.

sorry for your loss.but you might be suprised what you learn from him even in his absence.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I am so sorry to read about your Father's passing.
> 
> I am happy to read he had a nice girlfriend!



I know. I was glad to find it out. So he wasn't so alone after all. 


Thanks, everyone for the kind words.


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## Monroe (Jun 21, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your dad. What an amazing strong man. 

Thank you for sharing his story.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

dogman said:


> I write this as I sit next to my fathers hospital bed as he suffers through the last of his life.
> 
> I learned this week that my father is a very strong man. He was always a bad dude and many people feared him. I'll summarize the story then fill in the new detail later. The story I tell is new to me because it was never spoken of till recently. I'm 46 now.
> When I was 6 my parents were the center of a lot of neighborhood parties in North Jersey. We moved from there when my mother was raped during one of these parties by her sisters boyfriend when they went out for cigarettes. By the time I was 12 they were separated and my dad had slept on the couch for about 6 years.
> ...



I know it's been awhile but unfortunately theres always more to the story.
I found out that my mothers family, 13 sisters, were aware of what happened and that it wasn't a rape at all.
I also found out that this party was actually an engagement party for my mothers sister and the POSOM.

Apparently my father went to find the guy and he was in hiding because he knew my father found out. This town they lived in was a couple of hours from where we lived. 
My mothers family, including the sister who was engaged to the OM were hiding him in their home. My father found out that he was there and burst into their home and beat him in front of my grandmother and my aunts. My mother had 2 brothers as well but they stayed away from my father.
My aunt eventually married the OM and every time my mother visited her family for the years after this event, she would see them. My aunt is still married to this POS, as far as I know. 

Thanks for trying to follow this very confusing, dysfunctional story. It's been therapeutic to share it.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

It's a shame that times have changed. "He deserved a beating" doesn't work like it used to.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

dogman said:


> Thanks for asking. Hes hanging on still. I'm splitting my time at work and the hospital. Still no sign of my mother.


I personally know what you may be going through. You probably don't hear it, expect it, or want it, but you deserve the kudos. 

Much respect.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

I am sorry about your loss Dogman and I am sorry you are here brother. I do want you to know however that your story gives me strength. 

I keep having to do all the heavy lifting for my family. I do everything for my 3 sons and my EX does almost 0. As long as my children respect me and know I've done my best, that is enough for me.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> It's a shame that times have changed. "He deserved a beating" doesn't work like it used to.


If on a jury, I will NEVER convict a guy of beating down the OM.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

dogman said:


> So till this last hospital stay for my father! he would drive to my mothers house every day and get her paper from the end of the driveway and walk it to her door, set it there for her and leave without a word.


That made me cry.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> That made me cry.



Me too....now that he's gone.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Infidelity, lies and a lifelong deceit.

Your mother destroyed so many lives.

Sorry about your loss, your dad was a hero for doing what he did. Pity it needn't have happened as what he did was based on the lies his wife told him.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

dogman said:


> Me too....now that he's gone.


I am sorry for your loss. He was a good man who deserved better than what your mom did to him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I would think that your mother lying that she was raped is at least as bad as her cheating if not worse. Your father acted on what she told him. Then to find out it was a lie.

Your dad handled a bad situation the best he could.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks everyone.

My mothers family were/are all crazy. This is not the only story of infidelity within this group of sisters.

I really think my father knew all along that this was not a rape, especially when my mothers family protected him. Why protect a cheating rapist? Because he wasn't a rapist and cheating wasn't wrong to them.

I'm not condoning physical violence. It's just the only way my father could live another day with this. If you knew him you'd be surprised the OM lived through it.

My father said to me before he died " I had 4 little ones at home and i was working 2 jobs...what could I do?, I tried to make it work"

I have A TON OF RESPECT for all you guys out there trying to "make it work" because you care about your kids.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

dogman said:


> I know it's been awhile but unfortunately theres always more to the story.
> I found out that my mothers family, 13 sisters, were aware of what happened and that it wasn't a rape at all.
> I also found out that this party was actually an engagement party for my mothers sister and the POSOM.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing the story of your parents' marriage. The extra detail was mindblowing. Your mom must have been flirting with the guy.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Sounds like your dad is a man's man. Not many like that anymore. God bless him.


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## dsGrazzl3D (Apr 22, 2013)

1st. I'm sorry about his passing. I've just now read through. 



dogman said:


> My mother has always said she left because of being tired of struggling financially and my dad was bad with money.


She left because of money!?! WOW! Did she ever admit to anybody about affairs?!? 'jus amazes me... 



dogman said:


> they were separated and my dad had slept on the couch for about 6 years.


I'm sure she put him thru a time of happiness and joy b/c of her needs during this time.  **SARCASM INSERTED HERE** 



dogman said:


> She wanted to invite the married man she was seeing (to dogmn/my wedding) and I said no way.


Glad to see you have more integrity than your mom, in the knowledge that this was not a proper time for her married bf to come around. 



dogman said:


> My mothers family were/are all crazy. This is not the only story of infidelity within this group of sisters.


My #2 favorite quote is from Winston Chruchill after Germany surrends at the end of WWII;
"If you can _NOT LEARN_ from history, then you are _DOOMED_ to repeat it."
I think we all know a branch on _'the old family tree'_ that is like this... But I also respect those whom break away from that branch!



dogman said:


> My father said to me before he died " I had 4 little ones at home and i was working 2 jobs...what could I do?, I tried to make it work"


Simple words are the best.



dogman said:


> I have A TON OF RESPECT for all you guys out there trying to "make it work" because you care about your kids.


`Sound like your dad respected & _(is likely in spirit)_ STILL giving you respect for your efforts w/ your family.

Thanks again for sharing your story, and your dad with us here. You are both inspirations! :smthumbup:


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Thound said:


> Sounds like your dad is a man's man. Not many like that anymore. God bless him.


:iagree: 

I'm sorry for your loss dogman.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

dogman, what is your relationship with your mother ? She is disgusting!!


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Not being frivolous, but your father's life story was more gripping than a movie plot, Dogman.

I wish he had met that (later) girlfriend of his before he met your Mom (apologies for overlooking the prospect of your birth).

So many aspects of his life story are so striking:

His strength: - No, not really referring to the whipping of the OM. But more about the strength he displayed in not exposing his children to his girlfriend, out of respect for his (separated but legal) wife and children. Even in the face of her illness and death.

His sensitivity: – how he would drive to your mother’s house every day, get the newspaper from the end of the driveway, leave it at her door, and leave without a word. That choked me, man.

His human vulnerability – “I had 4 little ones at home and i was working 2 jobs... …what could I do? I tried to make it work." (This could have been the lament of SO MANY BSs on TAM, when accused later on (post spouse’s infidelity) of not being attentive enough.

His heroic protectiveness – protecting his estranged wife from bad male suitors when asked, even after what she did to him, and even after separating.


He had epic male characteristics, Dogman. *In another life, he would have been a Knight.*

May his soul rest in peace.

(Unless some angels ask his help to ward off stalkers. *Then, there would be no peace).*


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Not being frivolous, but your father's life story was more gripping than a movie plot, Dogman.
> 
> I wish he had met that (later) girlfriend of his before he met your Mom (apologies for overlooking the prospect of your birth).
> 
> ...


Thanks Z, this is only scratching the surface with stories about my Dad. He was a hard man. With simple black and white thinking sometimes. That is at odds with the blurry line between legal and illegal....haha!
Thanks again.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> dogman, what is your relationship with your mother ? She is disgusting!!


I don't speak to my mother and I have nothing to do with the Sicilian side of the family, that would be her side.

My sisters are very much like her and have continued the tradition of fvcking over men. So....I have nothing to do with them either. This, unfortunately took a long time to learn... Too long. 
My marriage was almost ruined by them playing games.

And yes, she is disgusting.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Well...here I am again. I need some input.

My mother is in the hospital for a hysterectomy and they found o ton of cancer. She has had lung cancer before and now this. She is not going to take the chemo so it's a matter of time....not a lot of time from what I understand.

I heard all this through my brother who is my business partner. I haven't spoken to her in years so my info is not super detailed at this point.

I'm compelled to just ignore the whole deal and continue life. Am I an a$$hole? What would some of you fine people do?

I've never told my brother about my fathers secret. My father made me promise to not tell while my mother was still alive.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Dogman, I have only just read your entire thread and am sorry for what your dad and you had to go through.

Firstly I would like to say that my father and his brothers (and my grandfather) came from very similar stock to your dad. What was clear is that they had the same values - family being the first, respect being the second, loyalty being the third and conviction/willpower being the fourth. I cannot say how much I respect those traits in people and you are lucky to have had him as a father and a role model. There are some instances in life where the black and white approach is the most appropriate. For what it is worth, my mother's were family, love, compassion/understanding and again, willpower/conviction. Together they made an awesome couple!

Your mother and her family have gone against each of those four values - no thought of family, complete disrespect, no loyalty and very weak willpower. So polar opposites.

The POSOM is less than an insect and should have been stamped on which your father did very well.

As for now: I know that you had promised your father not to tell your brother etc until your mother had passed away. Also, earlier in the thread, EI said a very wise thing: eternity is forever! The end is near and it would make sense to do the following given the circumstances:


Prepare to forgive your mother as she faces eternity - there is nothing to be gained by being unforgiving. It just makes you human and a better man.
In order to forgive her, she needs to come clean with the rest of your siblings and ask their forgiveness too.
Your siblings need to understand the role your father played, the role your mother and her side of the family played and also the real strength and integrity of your father. You need to help with this.

This is my tuppence worth but only you can make the decision and I am sure it will be the right one whatever it is.

Peace and strength to you.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Two year old thread resurrected. Sometimes these are interesting. 



dogman said:


> Acabado,
> I agree, she has never taken responsibility for anything in her life. He taught me the meaning of fierce loyalty.


It's too bad he didn't teach you the meaning of forgiveness as well. So 34 years of holding a grudge? Remaining "loyal" to his wife all that time but refusing to reconcile with her? Wow. I can't think of anything more destructive. After awhile, you have to forgive or at least let things go.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

dogman said:


> Well...here I am again. I need some input.
> 
> My mother is in the hospital for a hysterectomy and they found o ton of cancer. She has had lung cancer before and now this. She is not going to take the chemo so it's a matter of time....not a lot of time from what I understand.
> 
> ...


It sounds like your mother is from a family of cheaters, so she grew up and became what she learned and did what she was taught by her role models.. It might give you some closure to talk to her. You don't want to regret it after she's gone and it's no longer an option.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Two year old thread resurrected. Sometimes these are interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> It's too bad he didn't teach you the meaning of forgiveness as well. So 34 years of holding a grudge? Remaining "loyal" to his wife all that time but refusing to reconcile with her? Wow. I can't think of anything more destructive. After awhile, you have to forgive or at least let things go.


It's a challenge to forgive someone if they won't admit they've done anything wrong.. if they continue to lie to your face, you're not going to be as open to forgiveness as you would if they'd come clean. 

I agree that much of the destruction was from the old man not being able to let go and move on with his life. I don't know if he really needed to forgive her to do that though. The son might want to forgive her though, so he can let go of the grudge and get on with his life. Try to not repeat the mistakes he was taught by his poor role models, or pass them on to his children.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

It's a very difficult thing for someone else to advise you on Dogman.

I would go and see her, but I have not had your experience with your mother. My mum and dad were a bit like storybook parents.

Perhaps, rather than thinking about the now, you might want to wonder how you will feel when she does eventually die or maybe some years afterwards.

If you think that you will feel nothing then don't worry about it. If however you think that a few years down the line you may feel some regret, lack of closure, whatever then it might be appropriate to at least make an appearance. It doesn't have to be a tearful reunion, just a son paying last respects to his mother, irrespective of her sh1tty choices in life.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

This is a very similar story to my ex-wife's grandparents (with the grandfather being the cheater). The ex-wife and her two siblings only found out about what he had done after their grandmother had passed away, and up until that point, they absolutely adored both grandparents. They essentially never spoke to him again.

Until he was on his deathbed. My former brother and sister-in-law made the 9 hour drive to see him one last time, while my ex wife could not bring herself to do it.

I have no idea if my ex wife regretted not going, as we split up soon after. I do know that her siblings did not regret it and it gave them a closure of sorts.


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## sammy7111 (Apr 19, 2014)

It's really up to you. But if it was me I wouldn't have anything to do with her and I would keep my fathers wishes. That is as long as your family isn't bad mouthing your father then I would tell everone the truth. You really need to forgive her but that doesn't mean you have to go see her or have anything for her forgive her and forget her. I hope the best for u
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

When I was a chaplain I did quite a bit of grief work. Your situation, unfortunately is not unique. First, it is human to feel ambivalent. Your mother was not a very good person and you have been estranged from her for years. None of your issues with her have ever been resolved. Your mother had and has very human problems, particularly infidelity. This is real and prevalent, yet we live by many unwritten rules in grief, "you don't talk ill of the dying nor do you talk ill about the dead".

But if you can't speak about your mother's "sins" where does it go? You remember everything. Any unfinished business, anger, etc does not magically vanish and will remain with you till you die if it is not resolved, and will be a barrier to your healing.

How do you create statements that were never said, or see reactions that were never recieved. This is a burden that you will carry for a long time if left unresolved. 

Guilt can be caused by just having "ambivalent" feelings for your mother. 

So are you going to swallow it, hide it away, and hope one day you can get over this?

I think your father was "ambivalent" and that is why he did the paper thing and never dated and said he still had a wife. Emotions have a way of presenting themselves in strange ways as does the thought process. Your mother moved on and your father remained stuck.


Some will say, you remained apart from your mother all these years and you have dealt with it OK, so let her go.

Others will say at least go see her, keep it light and short.

And then there are various opinions on issues of forgiveness, reconciliation, etc.


There is no cookie cutter approach to this.

My fahter was not a very good person growing up. After the birth of our first son there was an incident and I did not talk to my parents for over 7 years. I finally forgave my father and then went on vacation with my parents for over 20 years. They were very precious times. When my dad died two years ago, my brothers wanted to p*ss on his grave. I understand, but I made up with my dad, they didn't. Do I blame my brothers for their thoughts and feelings? No.

But in the end when my father laid dying, he, my wife and I had a very good conversation and it has meant the world to me and it was all a result of me forgiving him over 20 years ago.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Theseus said:


> It's too bad he didn't teach you the meaning of forgiveness as well. So 34 years of holding a grudge? Remaining "loyal" to his wife all that time but refusing to reconcile with her? Wow. I can't think of anything more destructive. After awhile, you have to forgive or at least let things go.


Forgiveness is not everyone's cup of tea. Reconciling without remorse is rugsweeping. Many men would be ecstatic being the plan 'B', living off scraps from the table of WW. His father wasn't one. He had his own moral code by which he chose to live. He may have been wrong or right. But he deserves respect for the simple fact that he had big balls.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

WhiteRaven said:


> Forgiveness is not everyone's cup of tea. Reconciling without remorse is rugsweeping. Many men would be ecstatic being the plan 'B', living off scraps from the table of WW. His father wasn't one. He had his own moral code by which he chose to live. He may have been wrong or right. But he deserves respect for the simple fact that he had big balls.


Werd. :toast:


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm very sorry about your father. I just read your story for the first time. He was quite a man. 

As to your mother, I would do exactly what you're contemplating doing. However, if you think there is the smallest possibility of regret on your part at some point then the time to fix it is now. I wouldn't but you might.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

dogman:

I think you should go.

Even if it creates some emotional stress in the present, it would be good for the soul (especially so, for a sensitive person such as you).

I believe, *in the interminable circle of life, when YOUR time comes one day, the quality of THAT moment might be a little diminished if you don’t go now, when it is her time to go.*

*Death is the ultimate leveler. And we should give it the respect it deserves*, if we can.

*If you go, you are fundamentally respecting the finality of Death, not her.*

Just an opinion.




I presume you have the choice of revealing the truth of her life to your siblings, or not.
Or, whether to reveal it now, or later.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I think you should be the man your father was. What would he do?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dogman, I think you decide based on yourself. What do you want to do? Do you think it would be healing for you if you went to see her? Do you think it would traumatize you to go see her?

I don't think you make this decision based on what you think your mother wants or what your brother wants. Do what is right for you.

If your brother presses you to go or to explain why you don't want to go, I would simply say that there are things which you cannot explain at this time but which make it impossible for you to go.

For me, I would abide by the promise to your father not to tell anyone while she is still alive. However, if there are specifics which make you believe it would be beneficial to people to know, it would be ok to tell them. My impression is that telling your brother before your mother dies would not be good for your brother, especially since time is short.

After your mother dies is another consideration on whether to tell your brother. I would wait until that time to make any decision whether to tell him.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks everyone. 

I have only a minute to respond until tonight. I'm still at work and I see a lot that I will have to read carefully after work today.

After just glancing at the responses I can see this will help me in a big way.
Thanks


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

sandc said:


> I think you should be the man your father was. What would he do?


Exactly what I was going to suggest. Or a slightly different spin: what would he want you to do?

Honor him by honoring what he would tell you to do.

And my God, what a story. The thing with the paper, such a small thing in a way, choked me up too. Thanks for sharing it.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

dogman said:


> I'm compelled to just ignore the whole deal and continue life. Am I an a$$hole? What would some of you fine people do?


No, you're not an *******.
People reap what they sow.
I haven't spoken to my family since my mothers death and I won't be showing up at any of their deathbeds.



> I've never told my brother about my fathers secret. My father made me promise to not tell while my mother was still alive.


At least your father gave you an out, my mother didn't give me one.

You keep your word to your father and deal with whatever backlash your brother throws at you until she's gone and then you tell him why you did what you did according to the promise you made to your father.

He should understand, if he doesn't...life's a *****.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

tacoma said:


> No, you're not an *******.
> People reap what they sow.
> I haven't spoken to my family since my mothers death and I won't be showing up at any of their deathbeds.
> 
> ...


Maybe show up and, with all of your siblings there, say your goodbyes to your (hopefully conscious) mother and then, just as you leave, look her dead in the eye and say something like...

"By the way, I talked with Dad quite a bit before he passed, and it was VERY enlightening. Honestly, I don't know how you've managed to live w/ yourself all these years. Do you have anything that you'd like to apologize for? To all of us?"

...and then leave. Wouldn't it be a kick if aunt/OMW and uncle/OM were there as well?!?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Go see her while she's lucid. Let the chips fall where they may. I think you will regret it if you don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> Forgiveness is not everyone's cup of tea. Reconciling without remorse is rugsweeping. Many men would be ecstatic being the plan 'B', living off scraps from the table of WW. His father wasn't one. He had his own moral code by which he chose to live. He may have been wrong or right. But he deserves respect for the simple fact that he had big balls.


Thank you white raven....You are correct. She was not remorseful. So he was smart to not reconcile. She continued to be a terrible person. 

Contrary to what a few on here think...he did forgive her. He gave her respect and basically did anything for her until he could no longer walk. When he was in the hospital at the end, she was no where to be found. I heard through the grapevine that she would joke that he wouldn't die (because he was so tough) so she'd have to shoot him. While he forgave her he would never make the same mistake twice.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Well, I have a lot to think about. Thanks again for responding.

I should clear up a few things. Whenever you write about these situations it's so hard to get all the details out there.

I'm not disconnected from my mother because of the infidelity. That's just icing on the cake. I even forgave her for the f ed up life I had due to her alcoholism. I gave her many chances over the years and she proved to be a destructive force in my life and marriage. I even told her that if she can't behave in regard to my wife and children, she would no longer get to see me. She said quite a few hurtful things and I walked away without regret. 

Since then I found out the truth in regard to her and my father. For years she lied and spoke badly of my father. I can't say I forgive her for the infidelity but I also can't say that it's a huge factor in my decision. 

This would be a no brainer if she gave a SH!t and was at least nice. But she's not....so here I am. In a mess I didn't make. 

In truth, the only thing that makes me want to go see her is that most people don't know how it got to where it is, so most people will see me as wrong. And while she will pass away I will be left here with people who wish the karma bus will hit me for being an ungrateful child.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Are you the only sibling who knows about her infidelity?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Are you the only sibling who knows about her infidelity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It appears so.

The others probably believe it was a rape if they know anything at all about it.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Are you the only sibling who knows about her infidelity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My brother knows nothing and my sisters were told by my mother it was a rape. When I spoke to them about it initially they knew no details at all. I spoke to my mother back then about it and she was very vague. Just enough to blame my father for not letting it go.
Of course she said my dad put the guy in a coma for a month. She used that info to make my father sound like a maniac.

...So yes I am the only one to know about the infidelity.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

dogman said:


> My brother knows nothing and my sisters were told by my mother it was a rape. When I spoke to them about it initially they knew no details at all. I spoke to my mother back then about it and she was very vague. Just enough to blame my father for not letting it go.
> Of course she said my dad put the guy in a coma for a month. She used that info to make my father sound like a maniac.
> 
> ...So yes I am the only one to know about the infidelity.


I have some experience with this, not necessarily infidelity but dark sexual family secrets being revealed on a deathbed for sure.

It's likely with both your father and your mother gone the tale you tell will be thought a lie created by either you or your father.
Those unethical aunts you spoke of earlier would probably go out of their way to make family think you or your father were lying

People don't want to hear this stuff and they will create whatever delusion is necessary for them to act like it never happened.

Just a warning dogman.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Go see her. Let her die and let them bury her. Afterwards send a letter or email to all your siblings telling the story exactly the way you told it to us. Set your dad's record straight. Do it for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I have some experience with this, not necessarily infidelity but dark sexual family secrets being revealed on a deathbed for sure.
> 
> It's likely with both your father and your mother gone the tale you tell will be thought a lie created by either you or your father.
> Those unethical aunts you spoke of earlier would probably go out of their way to make family think you or your father were lying
> ...


He can at least plant a seed of doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> He can at least plant a seed of doubt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes and he should but I thought he should be aware of it going in.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Truth exacts a heavy toll on the teller sometimes. Question is, is it worth it to him ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Truth exacts a heavy toll on the teller sometimes. Question is, is it worth it to him ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was for me.

He doesn't seem to have a particularly close relationship with his family beyond his brother anyway so not much lost it would seem.

His brother might be another matter all together.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

dogman,

Do what feels right in YOUR heart.

My dad's mom ran off with a POS when he was 2 and his brothers were 3 and 1.

She never even tried to contact them again til he was in his twenties.

He never forgave her, though his brothers were able to do so.

She begged him to come see her when she was dying of cancer.

He told her to just worry about herself, since she had so little time left.

For him, she was dead and gone long ago.

He doesn't regret it to this day.

He was very close to her brothers (his uncles), who never spoke to her again themselves after she abandoned her kids.

Some people call it unforgiving, but not me.

I, like my dad, just view it as the consequences of making horrible choices in life.

There ARE some things that are unforgivable.

And people who commit them should be prepared to be treated as if they no longer exist by those they wrong.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

...Speechless!

Thank you for sharing it with us!
*hugs*

If you go visit her in the hospital, the look in your eyes would tell her more than your words/actions.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I have some experience with this, not necessarily infidelity but dark sexual family secrets being revealed on a deathbed for sure.
> 
> It's likely with both your father and your mother gone the tale you tell will be thought a lie created by either you or your father.
> Those unethical aunts you spoke of earlier would probably go out of their way to make family think you or your father were lying
> ...


With therapy several years ago, I gave up needing satisfaction from these people. My wife still struggles with wanting to be vindicated. But I have no need to "win" this. I just want to live in peace.

.....although....I just watched "the purge" with my son and I have some people to visit if that ever happens. Haha! JK


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

dogman said:


> Acabado,
> I agree, she has never taken responsibility for anything in her life. He taught me the meaning of fierce loyalty. She taught me things I needed therapy to get over.
> I have not made peace with her because she is continuing to be a bad person. The wreckage is obvious from an objective point of view.
> Thanks for the thoughts from all who responded.


 I can understand the anger you have with your mother but being that she's up there in years, she's not going to be around for much longer so, IMO, maybe your should try to sit down with her and clear the air the best that you can do because after their gone, then it's too late and the "coulda,"woulda, shoulda thing comes into play".


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

This is all very helpful...

I'm a guy and I've been though a lot...so I disconnect emotionally very easily and I can internalize things to the extreme so finding out how I actually feel is a challenge....but I'm getting there.

This forum is awesome.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

dogman said:


> This is all very helpful...
> 
> I'm a guy and I've been though a lot...so I disconnect emotionally very easily and I can internalize things to the extreme so finding out how I actually feel is a challenge....but I'm getting there.
> 
> This forum is awesome.


 I'm a guy too and had a falling out with my mother back in 2000 and spoke to her only once after that and by then her mind was gone and I don't think she even knew who I was since it was over the phone and she died the day after 9-11 and I never got to say "Hey Mum, I love you". It haunts me to this day. Just saying.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

6301 said:


> I'm a guy too and had a falling out with my mother back in 2000 and spoke to her only once after that and by then her mind was gone and I don't think she even knew who I was since it was over the phone and she died the day after 9-11 and I never got to say "Hey Mum, I love you". It haunts me to this day. Just saying.


It makes me ill to think of saying that to her. What does that mean?


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ect-children-finally-ready-tell-my-story.html

I had a very similar story...I shut my mom out when I was 15, didnt let her see my kids, didnt invite her to anything, had no relationship with her and she is now dead. NOW of course I regret it, and I am haunted by it. My story is linked above if you care to read it

If I could go back, I would have spent some time with her, although I dont think i ever would have forgiven her. You dont have to forgive or forget, but just maybe you can forge something, any thing with her, before its too late.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

So much hurt in so many forms. One quick hospital visit could never address it all. Do you know or have any indication that she would welcome a visit from you?

A visit full of negative feelings would not be worth the trip. Does your wife know all that you do? You said that she is all for the victory but if she truly is concerned about your well being as her husband she will discuss this matter dispassionally with you to help you make a decision.

Good luck,

Seasalt


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

i don't think you'll regret going but you might regret not.
best of luck in whatever you decide.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

There is no onus on dogman to forgive or express love. Any reconnection with her can be on HIS terms. Try thinking about what you would share with her and in terms of the feelings you have inside that you want to excise. You need only give her what your principles allow. 

Having lost a parent myself I can say that much was left unsaid and that is not something I regret. No need to get my pound of flesh for human failings. What I would have regretted was not offering whatever peace came from my support and presence as my parent passed from this world.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

There doesn't have to be any talk of the past or forgiveness. All he has to do is be there for a while, sit with her and be present. Just say goodbye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

dogman said:


> It makes me ill to think of saying that to her. What does that mean?


 It means that your still angry with her. I just hope that someday, your anger for what ever reason can be tempered and you can get it out of your heart before it's too late. It takes some people longer I guess but I do hope you can. Good luck to you.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Leopards don't change spots bro. Keep away from them.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> Well...this may being saying more than I should but I have to get it out. if you've read my story you know my mother comes from bad people. They protected the POSOM when my father looked for him. These people are criminals. They are now on their way to my town. To see my mother.
> These people hate me. They hated my father. This is a deep Italian thing. It's Sicilian. My father was a dangerous man and they could not touch him even after he almost killed the OM.
> I already have received hate texts from some of them. A cousin from that side wants to see me tonight. He and I were tight back in the day. I used to be like them. I've broken away for a reason. I'd be in jail if I'd stayed with them. This cousin is a dangerous person and I haven't seen him since a funeral years ago.
> My wife saved me from that life. I'm nervous about my world touching that stuff again.
> ...



*Temet Nosce.

And follow him.*


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> I'm not disconnected from my mother because of the infidelity. That's just icing on the cake. I even forgave her for the f ed up life I had due to her alcoholism. I gave her many chances over the years and she proved to be a destructive force in my life and marriage. I even told her that if she can't behave in regard to my wife and children, she would no longer get to see me. She said quite a few hurtful things and I walked away without regret.
> 
> Since then I found out the truth in regard to her and my father. For years she lied and spoke badly of my father. I can't say I forgive her for the infidelity but I also can't say that it's a huge factor in my decision.
> 
> This would be a no brainer if she gave a SH!t and was at least nice. But she's not....


I wonder if it might help if you thought of her as mentally ill instead of evil. Because the kind of person you are describing sounds like a personality disordered person, at least - maybe there's even more than that going on, but there's a good chance your mother has undiagnosed mental health issues. A lot of mentally ill people self-medicate with alcohol, so it's easy to see that part of the problem but the underlying mental disorder - or disorders - aren't as apparent. But I'd be very surprised if your mother DOESN'T have some kind of mental health problem.

If you think of her that way - mentally sick, without having the benefit of any insight or treatment her whole life long - is it possible you might find it a little easier to go into a room where she is lying, now physically sick too? 

Not to say I love you (because that's not true). But just to make a gesture. Say hello, let her say hello, and with someone that mentally ill, I wouldn't expect much of anything else. Say you just came to see how she's doing. If she wants to tell you about her condition, she can. And leave it at that. Just sit there in silence if the conversation goes nowhere. You don't have to entertain her. It doesn't have to be a long visit. IF you decide to go, it's having gone at all that will matter. 

But if you don't go, that's OK too.

Take care.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> I wonder if it might help if you thought of her as mentally ill instead of evil. Because the kind of person you are describing sounds like a personality disordered person, at least - maybe there's even more than that going on, but there's a good chance your mother has undiagnosed mental health issues. A lot of mentally ill people self-medicate with alcohol, so it's easy to see that part of the problem but the underlying mental disorder - or disorders - aren't as apparent. But I'd be very surprised if your mother DOESN'T have some kind of mental health problem.
> 
> If you think of her that way - mentally sick, without having the benefit of any insight or treatment her whole life long - is it possible you might find it a little easier to go into a room where she is lying, now physically sick too?
> 
> ...


Thank you hopeful girl, that's helpful. I do believe you are right about her state of mind.

I have decided to see my mother this week. I'm not looking forward to it at all. Im going to be seeing other relatives there that I dislike and distrust. But...I'm going.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

dogman said:


> Thank you hopeful girl, that's helpful. I do believe you are right about her state of mind.
> 
> I have decided to see my mother this week. I'm not looking forward to it at all. Im going to be seeing other relatives there that I dislike and distrust. But...I'm going.


Good call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think you are doing the right thing. Just say hey mom. Hold her hand for a while. You don't have to kiss her or say you love her. Just hang with her and make some all talk. Catch up. Treat her like an old high school teacher you haven't seen for years. 

Now if your aunts are there? Walk right past them and say nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Now if your aunts are there? Walk right past them and say nothing.


Maybe hand them some condoms as you walk past.


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

Your story is so sad I'm sorry that you had to go through that with your mom.

My father was an abusive drunk who cheated on my mother. My father had another child on my mom.'

I didn't even know I had a half-sister till she found me on facebook. My father ignores all of his 6 children besides 1.

I only speak to my father once a year on my birth-day. Sometimes parents are horrible.


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

_My mother is in the hospital for a hysterectomy and they found o ton of cancer. She has had lung cancer before and now this. She is not going to take the chemo so it's a matter of time....not a lot of time from what I understand._

Forgiveness.

Forgive your mother for yourself not for her it's a hard thing to do but. If you can honestly forgive your mother you will feel so much better.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

dogman said:


> Thank you hopeful girl, that's helpful. I do believe you are right about her state of mind.
> 
> I have decided to see my mother this week. I'm not looking forward to it at all. Im going to be seeing other relatives there that I dislike and distrust. But...I'm going.


This has been a very difficult thread to read, for many people, I'm sure. There is so much trigger potential in so many different ways, it would be hard to even outline them all. I didn't want to chime in until or unless I thought I had something of value to add. Reading your last post promoted this response.

I'm so glad that you decided to go see your Mother. And, NOT because I am a mother, and not because I was a WS, and not because I am a Pollyanna, who thinks that if everyone would just forgive and make nice that every story could have a happy ending. 

With that being said, I'll tell you why I think you are making the right decision. My mother was a nurse. She witnessed many of these near death, bedside vigils, with dying patients and their families. Many of them having been estranged for years, some of them, even decades. I remember, as a very naive young girl, hearing her talk about one such bedside visit. Before she could finish, I interrupted her and said, "I'll bet that everyone made up and was so happy and was so sorry that they had wasted all of those years." She said, "No, it was a disaster, it often is." She said that families were often fighting in the hospital room before the patient was deceased, and afterwards, extended families were often arguing in the patient's room after they were deceased, but before their body was cold. I said that that was awful. And, she said, "No, it wasn't, it still provided a measure of healing and closure. You don't go to visit the dying because of who they are, you go because of who you are." They will be gone soon. You will be alive and will have to live with the consequences. Even if it turns out badly, you will never have to wonder "what if." And, sometimes, it didn't turn out badly. Sometimes, miracles did happen. 

When my mother died, she spent the last three days of her life in a hospice unit. I rarely left her side. I only came home to take care of my children, who were between the ages of 4-12, at the time. During the time that I was at home, my mother's sister, or one of my cousins, would stay with Mom. I had two brothers, but one did not provide any help and the other was in prison. He is Bipolar and was an addict, as well. The brother who was in prison had alienated my entire extended family. My father had Alzheimer's, my children were too young to help me, my husband was working, and when he wasn't working, he was helping with our kids so that I could be with Mom as much as possible. I needed the help of my Aunts and my cousins or I wouldn't have been able to manage everything that I had to do. 

My brother, who was in prison, insisted on having a bedside visit with my mother. It was something that could be arranged, with her death being imminent, but it was quite costly and it did not sit well with my extended family. The ONLY ones who were in a position to, and who were willing to help me care for my Mother. And, there was certainly no love loss between my brother and myself. I owed him nothing. He had alienated everyone, with his actions, due to his addiction and his Bipolar disorder, before going to prison. The worst part of it was that his visit would have to take place at a time when I could not be there and my Aunt would be. 

I had actually asked my mother, when her illness began to progress, what I should do if my brother insisted on seeing her and she was not in a position to speak for herself. This is, ironically, exactly how it played out in the end. She was heavily sedated on Morphine, the last few days, and was not speaking, and was barely lucid. But, months before, when I had asked her about it, she said that she did not need to see him, that she had forgiven him, that she had made her peace with him, but that HE might need to see her, and if he did, and I would allow it, then it was okay with her. She left it up to me. 

My brother had never made any of our lives any easier. I didn't owe him anything. My extended family had NO desire to see him and I couldn't blame them. But, and here is my whole point, I had to live with my decision for the rest of my life. My mother was at death's door. My incarcerated, mentally ill, addict of a brother, who had absolutely NOTHING to offer anyone, was begging to see her..... to make peace within himself. So, not because of who he was, but because of who I am, who I desire to be, which is a person of compassion, I moved Heaven and Earth, in a matter of hours, and great personal expense, and at the risk of upsetting the only help I could rely on, and arranged for his bedside visit. My brother arrived, with a sheriff's deputy, in an orange jumpsuit, handcuffed and shackled, on a Monday afternoon, and was able to visit with our Mother, for less than an hour. Just after midnight that night, my Mother passed from this life into eternal life. I wasn't there when my brother visited, but I was holding her hand when she took her last breath. 

My brother is no longer in prison. Although, he is still Bipolar and he's still an addict, because those illnesses are for life, but he has been drug free for 10 years, now. He is still insufferable to be around and I can only tolerate him in extremely small doses. After allowing him to see our Mother, at the risk of my Aunt's wrath, my brother had the audacity to piss me off, royally, within hours of Mom's death, on the phone the next morning (this post is already too long to go into all of that....) 

So, do I regret allowing him to see her? No, not one bit. I didn't go through all of that Hell because of who he is, I did it because of who I am. And, I have NEVER regretted it.

The fact that you posed this question, on TAM, says to me that, despite everything that your mother has done, you still felt, at least, somewhat, uncertain about letting her pass from this life, into eternity, without closing this chapter. Go without expectations. You're doing this for yourself. You owe her nothing. She owed you, and she failed. As someone on this thread has already suggested, she is likely mentally ill. You may not get a happy ending, but I don't think you'll regret going. 

She is partly responsible for, at least, one good thing. She helped create you. And, I've read many of your posts. You are a good man.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

EI said:


> This has been a very difficult thread to read, for many people, I'm sure. There is so much trigger potential in so many different ways, it would be hard to even outline them all. I didn't want to chime in until or unless I thought I had something of value to add. Reading your last post promoted this response.
> 
> I'm so glad that you decided to go see your Mother. And, NOT because I am a mother, and not because I was a WS, and not because I am a Pollyanna, who thinks that if everyone would just forgive and make nice that every story could have a happy ending.
> 
> ...



Wow! Thank you! I'll let you know how it plays out..


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## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm so sorry for everythings that has happened to you.

I see that you've decided to go there this weekend, but I just wanted to ask what does your wife think about you going or not? Maybe she has some preferences that could influence your decision?

Best wishes


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

EI said:


> She is partly responsible for, at least, one good thing. She helped create you. And, I've read many of your posts. You are a good man.



Whether he goes or not, and if does, whether he feels better afterwards or worse, THIS holds true.


EI, your post had deep EQ. Brought back a lot of memories from my own life.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

So I went to see my mother today.

I nailed the timing perfectly kinda. I heard when a few of my aunts were leaving for the better part of the day so I dropped what I was doing and went when I knew no one was there.
She was non expressive when I walked in and we talked about her condition. She was on oxygen and breathing was labored a bit.
During the conversation she started to say some things about my father. How she felt sick to her stomach when she'd see him bringing the paper to her house. How he could barely get out of his car toward the end. I guess that's why she didn't see him when he was in the hospital. I told her I had to get back to work. I got up to leave and she said something she has never said, "I love you" I kissed her on the top of her head and said "I love you too" and I left. I ran into one of my crazy sisters on the way out, we were cold to each other and kept moving.

That's it...I guess Ill see what happens next, thanks everyone.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

dogman said:


> So I went to see my mother today.
> 
> I nailed the timing perfectly kinda. I heard when a few of my aunts were leaving for the better part of the day so I dropped what I was doing and went when I knew no one was there.
> She was non expressive when I walked in and we talked about her condition. She was on oxygen and breathing was labored a bit.
> ...


 Nothing needs to happen next. You did the right thing. You put aside your differences and acted like an adult and that's all that should be expected of you.

I'm glad you went to see her. I can assure you that by doing this, you will never have to second guess your conscious.


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> If on a jury, I will NEVER convict a guy of beating down the OM.


Then you'd never be seated on such a jury, and thank God. This is a question during voir dire. You will be stricken. 

I'm actually shocked by all the cheers for violence, and how "honorable" it is. I disagree completely. People who follow the rule of law in a civilized society and who can control their animalistic, violent rage are honorable.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Good going Dogman. Now you won't have to live with regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

_I'm actually shocked by all the cheers for violence, and how "honorable" it is. I disagree completely. People who follow the rule of law in a civilized society and who can control their animalistic, violent rage are honorable._

Well you don't know what people are capable of. Some people aren't thinking clearly when they're betrayed.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Happyfamily said:


> Then you'd never be seated on such a jury, and thank God. This is a question during voir dire. You will be stricken.
> 
> I'm actually shocked by all the cheers for violence, and how "honorable" it is. I disagree completely. People who follow the rule of law in a civilized society and who can control their animalistic, violent rage are honorable.


...as are those who can control their primal, *animalistic* urge to push their genitals into those belonging to another's spouse. To engage in this sort of behavior and then hide behind the "rule of law" is nothing short of absolutely cowardly.

Don't want the horns? _Then don't f*ck w/ the bull._


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Happyfamily said:


> Then you'd never be seated on such a jury, and thank God. This is a question during voir dire. You will be stricken.
> 
> I'm actually shocked by all the cheers for violence, and how "honorable" it is. I disagree completely. People who follow the rule of law in a civilized society and who can control their animalistic, violent rage are honorable.


Thank you Mother Theresa. 

What does this have to do with Dogman?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Happyfamily said:


> Then you'd never be seated on such a jury, and thank God. This is a question during voir dire. You will be stricken.
> 
> I'm actually shocked by all the cheers for violence, and how "honorable" it is. I disagree completely. People who follow the rule of law in a civilized society and who can control their animalistic, violent rage are honorable.


Boo....Hoo...

I would feel far safer with more men like dogman father in the world.

I think your idea of civilization is nauseating myself. Killing a posom was considered justifiable homicide until the 1940's I believe.

Really pretty hard to stir up sympathy for men who think it's funny to sleep with married women. 

Feeding them to dogs seems fairly "civilized" to me.


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> ...as are those who can control their primal, *animalistic* urge to push their genitals into those belonging to another's spouse. To engage in this sort of behavior and then hide behind the "rule of law" is nothing short of absolutely cowardly.
> 
> Don't want the horns? _Then don't f*ck w/ the bull._


You are talking to a rape victim. My husband had an affair too. I don't use either one of those as justification for acting like an animal myself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Again, none of this has anything to do with Dogman. As far as this thread goes, he has never hurt anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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