# Culture and relationships



## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

I have been wondering recently how cultural background affects the likelihood of marriages succeeding.

I know a number of friends who are in a multi-racial or multi-faith relationships and are very happy. I also have a few friends who are married to partners from a different country/continent. I for one being British, am married to an American lady but sadly, I have filed for a divorce. I have also read some relationship guidance books which give advice on what couples should do with and for each other which got me thinking (now that's a dangerous thing

*Question is:

DO you think there is a cultural context which some of these books overlook? How much do you think culture affects the way couples are able to relate to each other? I am very interested in your views.* Feel free to use your own definition of 'culture'


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

I will give my 2 cents. I haven't been involved in any inter-cultural relationship though. My observations are based on growing up in one of the most culturally diverse countries and then living in USA for a good part of the last decade.

What I have seen so far, in inter-cultural marriages, the chance of survival is better. IMHO, both partners tend to put more effort in understanding the difficulties and challenges due to possible differences in views and hence tend to be more open in communications. My experience might be conditional on the background of the people I associate with, but I have often seen inter-cultural marriages being happier and longer.

My definition of cultural difference is any variation in language/religion/race.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

life101 said:


> I will give my 2 cents. I haven't been involved in any inter-cultural relationship though. My observations are based on growing up in one of the most culturally diverse countries and then living in USA for a good part of the last decade.
> 
> What I have seen so far, in inter-cultural marriages, the chance of survival is better. IMHO, both partners tend to put more effort in understanding the difficulties and challenges due to possible differences in views and hence tend to be more open in communications. My experience might be conditional on the background of the people I associate with, but I have often seen inter-cultural marriages being happier and longer.
> 
> My definition of cultural difference is any variation in language/religion/race.


Nice definition!


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't know about religion. That seem like a hard barrier to cross if you are a born again Christian married to a Muslim or some other kind of religions that are oppose to one another.

It seems people have really made stride crossing racial barriers. 

However, customs also seem like it could be a little difficult, especially cusoms that are deep seated and highly regarded, like arrange marriages. 

Languages - I really don't know about that one. Racial, customs, and religion differences I have all seen in play, but not language barriers.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> I don't know about religion. That seem like a hard barrier to cross if you are a born again Christian married to a Muslim or some other kind of religions that are oppose to one another.
> 
> It seems people have really made stride crossing racial barriers.
> 
> ...


You raise a good point about religion. I see far fewer inter-faith relationships as I do inter-racial, cross-continent/national ones


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

A person's personality is shaped by culture, family background, and religion( if they have one). And I think family background and his religion affect a person a lot.

My husband is from Canada (western culture), and I am from China (eastern culture). He wasn't good with money, he spent whatever he earned. I think that's cultural influence because in western countries, you have good welfare system, you don't need to worry about saving for your old age. He is also more open about sex, like trying different positions and various places, I think that's also cultural influence. 

But his other personalities like loyalty, being responsible, and good at self-control, I think he got them from his religion. After so many years of going to their meetings, you get that gradually. I am glad that he grew up in this religion. 

He is a loner, and sometimes cheap, I think he got these from his family (mostly his father's influence). 

So when you look at a person, there are lots of things to consider. 

I think it's important for couples to understand each other's background, no matter if they are from the same culture or different cultures. Very often when we have argument, it's due to misunderstanding. How do you have less misunderstanding, the only way is by honest and open communication.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

On a more specific note, I am wondering is TAMers consider that cultural factors are ignored in some of the relationship guide books.

For example, I would guess that a huge proportion of these are written by North American authors (I haven't read that many so I have no evidence for this statement). However, I have come to understand first hand that American culture is rather different to British culture as are the general styles of communication (dangerous generalisation - I know but ...)

If my generalisations are accurate, should I then be worried by some of these books, if I was say from the Middle East, Africa or South-East Asia - perhaps even Europe?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> A person's personality is shaped by culture, family background, and religion( if they have one). And I think family background and his religion affect a person a lot.
> 
> My husband is from Canada (western culture), and I am from China (eastern culture). He wasn't good with money, he spent whatever he earned. I think that's cultural influence because in western countries, you have good welfare system, you don't need to worry about saving for your old age. He is also more open about sex, like trying different positions and various places, I think that's also cultural influence.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for broadening this to also include family background in to the culture. I think this is so important. How have you been able to overcome any cultural differences in say attitude to finances, sex, show of affection, domestic responsibilities etc?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Hey thanks for broadening this to also include family background in to the culture. I think this is so important. How have you been able to overcome any cultural differences in say attitude to finances, sex, show of affection, domestic responsibilities etc?


Finances: I just showed him how good I am with money. I know how much money we make; I know what our expenses are, and there is a plan right away. I told him how important it is for us to save. I don't want to live a life which I have to worry about money. If I don't want that problem, I know we have to work hard and make a certain amount. But I also know we shouldn't live beyond our means. He agrees with me. Now he is grateful to me because we are in a very good financial situation. He lets me manage our money, never questions. 

Sex: I love sex, and I need a man who is good at sex. So we are a good match. He helped me become more open about sex. A good match between western and eastern culture. 

Show of affection: My husband is very good at showing his affection, and I love it. I think that's cultural influence. That's what eastern culture needs. We are very reserved and subtle. All the hugging, kissing, caressing, and groping are what we lack. 

Domestic responsibilities: I just assumed that I would be doing all the cooking and cleaning. I never expected my husband to help me. But after we got married, he started helping me right away. Before we bought our apartment, there was only laundry. We did our laundry together. A studio didn't need much cleaning or organizing. Since we bought our apartment, I have been doing the cooking and cleaning; my husband has been doing the dishes and laundry. I appreciate the fact that he is sharing house chores with me. I didn't even need to ask him to do it, he just took the job himself. My husband thinks that he should do house chores because I also work and contribute financially. This thinking is different from eastern thinking. A lot of men in Taiwan don't do anything at home. I don't think I would like a man who doesn't help out at home especially if the wife also works. If I don't work, then taking care of everything at home is my job. I won't expect him to do anything at home.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I think that before two people from different cultures get married, they should do their best to understand their soon to be spouse's back round, customs, and religion. A persons religion for example is very personal and should be respected. IMO it doesn't matter what name you use for the Almighty, when in fact it's the same God, just different name. 

I think the biggest problem is not the two people that are in love but the families who really make it tough for them. They put so much pressure on the couple that if you go against the family your an outcast. 

Just a really small example. When my second daughter was born, we had to decide where to get her baptized. I was raised Catholic and my now ex wife was Methodist. We solved the problem in a simple way. We flipped a coin. She won so we had her baptized in a Methodist church. I told my parents and my Mother wouldn't attend. I asked why and she said it went against her faith. I said this is your grand daughter and she wouldn't budge. The only thing I wanted was for her to be baptized and when my Mother refused to come, I looked at her and calmly said "fine, stay home, it's your loss not mine" and that was that. The Minister sat me down and assured me that the Methodist version was almost the same as the Catholic one and I told the Minister that he didn't owe me a explanation, I just want her baptized. Be damned if I was going to be put in the crosshairs by anyone. My kid and my rules and too bad if they couldn't compromise a little. Like going to a baptism in a non Catholic church was a one way ticket visit Beelzebub.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> Finances: I just showed him how good I am with money. I know how much money we make; I know what our expenses are, and there is a plan right away. I told him how important it is for us to save. I don't want to live a life which I have to worry about money. If I don't want that problem, I know we have to work hard and make a certain amount. But I also know we shouldn't live beyond our means. He agrees with me. Now he is grateful to me because we are in a very good financial situation. He lets me manage our money, never questions.
> 
> Sex: I love sex, and I need a man who is good at sex. So we are a good match. He helped me become more open about sex. A good match between western and eastern culture.
> 
> ...


Did you discuss/investigate any or much of these key areas of your relationship before you got married or you worked it out as you went along? 

BTW, very well done you two. Fantastiche
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Did you discuss/investigate any or much of these key areas of your relationship before you got married or you worked it out as you went along?
> 
> BTW, very well done you two. Fantastiche
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think we did any discussion about how to run a marriage before we got married. We spent a lot of time talking about our past and getting to know each other.

When I met my husband, I just felt he is the man I yearn for. My husband took it slowly and he made sure I am the woman he wants to spend his life with. That's his personality.

For the past eight years, we have just been working as a team to make our life happy. In a marriage, there are usually two happy people or two miserable people, two winners or two losers.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> I don't think we did any discussion about how to run a marriage before we got married. We spent a lot of time talking about our past and getting to know each other.
> 
> When I met my husband, I just felt he is the man I yearn for. My husband took it slowly and he made sure I am the woman he wants to spend his life with. That's his personality.
> 
> For the past eight years, we have just been working as a team to make our life happy. In a marriage, there are usually two happy people or two miserable people, two winners or two losers.


I think you raise some good points there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> Show of affection: My husband is very good at showing his affection, and I love it. I think that's cultural influence. That's what eastern culture needs. We are very reserved and subtle. All the hugging, kissing, caressing, and groping are what we lack.


This is interesting. Was it hard for you to receive/give affection since you grew up like that as you say "very reserved and subtle."

I ask because with the 5 Love Language people here on TAM say if affection is not their love language it is awkward and hard to give it. But the interesting thing about you, Greenleaf, is that perhaps it was there but would never have come out were it not for your husband of a different culture?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

committed4ever said:


> This is interesting. Was it hard for you to receive/give affection since you grew up like that as you say "very reserved and subtle."
> 
> I ask because with the 5 Love Language people here on TAM say if affection is not their love language it is awkward and hard to give it. But the interesting thing about you, Greenleaf, is that perhaps it was there but would never have come out were it not for your husband of a different culture?


In our culture, there is no hugging from our parents. No hugging from friends or relatives either. When we are little, our parents would hold us or carry us around, but I think the hugging and cuddling stop when we are about ten. Lovers hug and kiss each other when they are still infatuated with each other. But after they get married for some time, a lot of physical affection stops. We don't say "I love you" either. We show our affection from doing things for one another. 

I didn't get much hugging or cuddling when I was little, maybe I need it even more because I didn't have it.


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## Welsh TXN (Feb 4, 2012)

iBolt,

Sad to see you here fella, I'm originally from across the pond and yeah I found huge cultural differences when I was married to my ex wife, the biggest for me was the family unit I didn't just marry her I married the whole family, I guess they look at like your away from your family so they make up for it. But in general as you know stuff upper lip and a cuppa will get you through anything. 

I hope proceedings go well for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I live in an extremely religious, culturally and ethnically diverse country.
No " dominant " races in our society, and inter religious / cultural marriages are the norm in every single strata of society.
Even the " first couple " [The president & his wife ] are a
mixed race / mixed religious marriage.
Hindus marry Muslims , Muslims marry Christians etc.

Interfaith and inter cultural couples tend to be more moderate in their religious beliefs and cultural customs. A lot of compromising takes place.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Welsh TXN said:


> iBolt,
> 
> Sad to see you here fella, I'm originally from across the pond and yeah I found huge cultural differences when I was married to my ex wife, the biggest for me was the family unit *I didn't just marry her I married the whole family*, I guess they look at like your away from your family so they make up for it. But in general as you know stuff upper lip and a cuppa will get you through anything.
> 
> ...


If you marry someone from the Philippines and China, that's something you have to be aware of. 

We are instilled strong family responsibilities into our brain. We feel the need to look after our families. 

If the spouse is from a rich family, then they will support you financially; if the spouse is from a poor family, then she feels the need to send money home. I have been sending money home ever since I left home. 17 years already.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> I live in an extremely religious, culturally and ethnically diverse country.
> No " dominant " races in our society, and inter religious / cultural marriages are the norm in every single strata of society.
> Even the " first couple " [The president & his wife ] are a
> mixed race / mixed religious marriage.
> ...


I didn't have a religion before I got married. I am not against my husband's religion. There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible. I am not against any religion. I like to study Buddhism too. There are a lot of good things in these religions, but there are a lot of things which I find hard to take into. I study them, take what I want to take to shape my personality, but I won't challenge them either. I keep quiet when I don't agree. 

I do find my husband's religion strict, and I have to do something which I don't feel happy doing, but I still do it, just to keep my mother-in-law happy. My husband and I are on the same team.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I think intercultural marriages are successful when people compromise. My ex husband was from the middle east, and while we may have shared the same religion, we disagreed about a lot of other things, from how to pay for expenses and how often to visit family. I used to blame a lot of those problems on culture, but after being divorced and remarrying someone who is also from a different culture, I see that wasn't the case.

Yes, culture clashes can cause problems in marriage. Clearly, as you have mentioned, communication styles are very different. This even occurs between people who come from different parts of the US. I know my cousin, who is from the south, married a guy from NY. Her whole family had a hard time with it and it put pressure on her, which ultimately impacted their relationship. 

I can see in my current marriage that things can work out quite well if you are willing to be OPEN about your feelings and honest. You have to compromise together to make a good agreement that will help you sort out small disputes. Besides, the cultural differences can bring a lot of flavor to a relationship, but the people have to be willing to be open minded and not feel that "MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY". I find that many times people who think there is only one way to do something are terribly boring anyway.

Also, in my current marriage, our families are supportive of us being together. At first, my family was very angry, but as they got to know him, they have calmed down. It can put a lot of pressure on a couple if one of the families is not supportive. And age has a lot to do with it. I am much more flexible as I have lived longer because I see now the benefit of it, where as in my first marriage I was more rigid.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

I think that it is easier to bridge the gap between races than between cultures or religions.

Whether you believe the evolutionists or the Abrahamic religions all humans have a common ancestor and so all races are genetically linked. Other than our outward appearance we are all basically the same.

Religion and Culture are in my opinion all about ideas and attitudes and unless people are prepared to be understanding of their differences and tolerant of each other’s feeling it can lead to serious problems within any potential relationship.

I am an Anglican and my wife is a Catholic and although we share the vast majority of our beliefs the relatively small differences have had the potential to cause problems with the wider family. One of the first conflicts we had to settle was in which church to marry, then if and where to have the children Christened / educated. Religions and or cultures that share less common ground will present more and bigger problems (what foods you can eat, what you can drink, public displays of affection, matriarchal or patriarchal home etc) the more deeply held the differing views are held the more tolerance , understanding and willingness to compromise will be needed to make things work.


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## Jackie1607 (Jan 22, 2013)

At least you two are from the western culture, so may not be so many differences as me and my boyfriend. I am from Japan and he is Italian American. I may not be a typical Japanese woman, yet I feel the cultural differences affect our relationship time to time. 

I posted a thread regarding marriage and proposal. I was amazed at how many people suggested I should bring it up to him. In my Japanese culture, expressing one's feelings is not always appreciated. Yes, therefore, he and I have experienced misunderstandings time to time because of it. But when I explained to him why I did certain things, he was amazed but realized I did so based on my habits/thinking my culture had taught. 

Because I have lived in the US for 22years, I don't get culture shock from what he does. But my Japanese-ness seems to affect our relationship a bit. But not always negatively. I enjoy learning the differences though. He seems to do the same.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I've been on this subject a lot lately ... and considering how long winded I normally am, I'm not sure how long I can stay in this thread, but ... 

I am American, and grew up in Native American territory as a farmer in the heartland of the US. My wife is from Korea. I met her my first time in Korea. We've now been married for 28 years, have 3 children, and our first grandchild on the way. We're currently living in China, but this is the 18th address we've had in the 4th country where we've lived since we've been married. We've also lived in 6 different states in the US.

I've known a lot of people who were in mixed marriages like ours who did not last. My perception was that the divorce rate was higher, but I don't have any statistics to back that up. 

We've both been through culture shock in both directions, and had to adjust culturally to each other. After 28 years, the description we use with each other is that we each can walk comfortably in the other's culture, and we are accepted by the people of that culture, but when we stop to think about comfort, we realize that neither of us completely fits into the other's culture. We each feel a need to some contact with each culture. When I was in field engineering, if I went for several days to someplace where there was not a big Korean community and my wife couldn't accompany me, then at the end of those trips, I usually wanted first thing to go to the Korean markets when I got home. I just felt a need to hear Korean spoken and to smell the food and be in a comfortable, homey environment that had a distinct Korean element to it. 

How I'd define culture: It's everything from the food you smell and eat at home to the euphemisms you will use. It's not like a trip to an ethnic restaurant, because this culture will make sure you eat food from that culture regularly. Its the language you speak at home, even if you blend two languages into your own unique hybrid language. It's the history your kids will be most interested in as they grow up because they see it as a part of them that helps to make them unique, and helps to define where they've come from. It's how much responsibility you will have when an extended family member is sick. It defines how your kids will address you at home, and in public. It defines how you will address those older than you, even to the point of whether you are allowed to call that person by name, or must use a title. It often goes so far as to define whether you can hand something to someone with one hand, or if you must use two hands to show respect, and those same rules apply to handshakes. Do you bow to someone slightly at the waiste, or is a bow with the head enough? or do you bow at all? Do your/her parents give your kids generous amounts of money on every holiday, and are you expected to do the same with their kids? 

It goes very deep. When you marry into another culture, a part of you has to become a part of that culture, and the partner needs to do the same with yours, IMO. After a while, I think you realize that you have blended the cultures together comfortably in your home, and probably decide that neither has been unchanged culturally - you belong to both.

BTW, I've written humorous pieces based entirely on our bilingual marriage. I'm sure most bilingual marriages have moments like ours have, but we have pulled some DOOZY language gaffes ... and they're really funny when you get the chance to back up and think about them . ... 

I'm very happy in my situation, but I would tell someone considering it to think it over seriously because there are challenges that other people may not have, and the extra challenges around communication are just one of those extra challenges.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> If you marry someone from the Philippines and China, that's something you have to be aware of.
> 
> We are instilled strong family responsibilities into our brain. We feel the need to look after our families.
> 
> If the spouse is from a rich family, then they will support you financially; if the spouse is from a poor family, then she feels the need to send money home. *I have been sending money home ever since I left home. 17 years already*.


Yikes! Mind you, I know this happens in many African communities as well. This in a way is the turning of something good ie communal family support structure into something that can ruin relationships. Good insights though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

iBolt said:


> Yikes! Mind you, I know this happens in many African communities as well. This in a way is the turning of something good ie communal family support structure into something that can ruin relationships. Good insights though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The payment of a remittance or allowance to family / communities that have been left behind when a person moves to another country and manages to improve their financial circumstances has a long and varied history.
Officers in the British East India Company were doing this centuries ago (and I am sure elsewhere / earlier example will be given). 
Now expatriate workers or settlers send money all over the world to support their wider families.

In the UK we have large communities from the former colonies (now commonwealth) who send money back to Asia, the Caribbean, Africa and Expat Brits send money here from Austrila , Canada or the Middle East.

As the US has grow its population by generations of immigration there is a long history of families sending home money to the “old country” be that Ireland / Greece / Italy in the past or Mexico or the Philippines now. Again expat Yanks working in the Gulf send money the other way.

For some countries these remittance payments make up a sizable proportion of their GDP (a figure of over $500 billion pa worldwide was given by the world bank).


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Yikes! Mind you, I know this happens in many African communities as well. This in a way is the turning of something good ie communal family support structure into something that can ruin relationships. Good insights though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This can be a huge problem if the wife only thinks about her family back home. A lot of Taiwanese men who are married to Chinese women are bitter about it. 

I know clearly that my life is in Taiwan, so I don't send all of my money home. I do my best to help my family, especially my parents. My parents are poor peasants. If I don't look after my parents, I will feel guilty. I can't just ignore them and live my carefree life. My husband is OK with it. He understands the strong sense of responsibility I have for my family. And I am reasonable with it. I don't just look after my own family, I take care of his family too. Like giving his mother, grandmothers, and sister expensive gifts. In western countries, you have to give one another Christmas gifts too.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> I didn't have a religion before I got married. I am not against my husband's religion. There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible. I am not against any religion. I like to study Buddhism too. There are a lot of good things in these religions, but there are a lot of things which I find hard to take into. I study them, take what I want to take to shape my personality, but I won't challenge them either. I keep quiet when I don't agree.
> 
> I do find my husband's religion strict, and I have to do something which I don't feel happy doing, but I still do it, just to keep my mother-in-law happy. My husband and I are on the same team.


Yes,
I think that approach works best.
My wife & I are different races / cultural backgrounds.
She goes to church regularly but I have'nt been in ages. Whenever she asks, I will go with her, and still we have very enlightening discussions.

Recently there was the ceremonial reopening of our country's Parliament and my wife ad I looked at it on the parliament channel on our local cable networks.
As part of the ceremony, they usually have opening prayers / incantations from various religions represented in the country.
There were:
Christian , Muslim, Hindu , Bhuddist ,Orisha [ African] and so on.

We both laughed at ourselves.

I personally too much of one thing is not good for growth. There must be diversity. Diversity has its challenges , but it can cause one to open their minds to new possibilities.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes,
> I think that approach works best.
> My wife & I are different races / cultural backgrounds.
> She goes to church regularly but I have'nt been in ages. Whenever she asks, I will go with her, and still we have very enlightening discussions.
> ...


I find it easy for me to tell people my opinion about their religion if they are not defensive about it. If they start to be defensive, I shut up right away. I don't want to argue with them. I don't want to convert them, and they can't convert me either.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

Just wondered... Do you think that social class / occupational history of the parents of the spouses / schooling history (private or statefunded, day school or boarding school) does play a role even if both spouses are from the same culture?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

betulanana said:


> Just wondered... Do you think that social class / occupational history of the parents of the spouses / schooling history (private or statefunded, day school or boarding school) does play a role even if both spouses are from the same culture?


My answer is yes. Some people have anger problems, some people are selfish, and then some others are vain. Imagine those children who are brought up by these parents. More or less they will be influenced by it. Then you have those caring, loving, and open minded parents, their children have a better environment to grow up.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

betulanana said:


> Just wondered... Do you think that social class / occupational history of the parents of the spouses / schooling history (private or statefunded, day school or boarding school) does play a role even if both spouses are from the same culture?


I do not know how much of a factor Class or Caste has in other countries.

For much of its history the UK has been a country divided along class lines but thankfully this has to a large extent been changed over the last 50 years. Greater social mobility and the enterprise culture have broken down many barriers.

Even our future Queen (Catherine Duchess of Cambridge) is the daughter of middle class parents made good (British Airways cabin crew) that would have been unthinkable only decades ago.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

Do you think they will get along well?

I heard that Lady Di had some trouble with her inlaws which she blamed on social class. Was she lower gentry or something like this? Do not know that much about her to be honest. Just heard it somewhere...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I think most books are written within the context or framework of the culture and/or experience of the author.

No doubt many of the western 'relationship books' that are abundant here would be absolutely laughable or seem completely out of touch in other parts of the world.

Check out this book: Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace with Marriage: Elizabeth Gilbert: Amazon.com: Books

Liz Gilbert does a great job of talking about what marriage means in other parts of the world, and particularly, why 'romantic love' is the least reliable measure of whether a couple stays together or not.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Just wondered... Do you think that social class / occupational history of the parents of the spouses / schooling history (private or statefunded, day school or boarding school) does play a role even if both spouses are from the same culture?


I would say yes. I think family background more than anything else influences a person and how they behave in relationships or life in general. I would go as far as to say family background or even culture are determinants but rather are influencers of behaviour. Either way it is something that I would look at closely when I date again considering that I have my own cultural sets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's the summary of our inter-everything relationship... I'm from Western Europe, she's from the Central Asia republic of Farawaystan. Both moved to USA 30 years ago and met in college. Both well educated with doctorate degrees in our fields and working. Two girls, one in college and one in high school. The marriage was good for 25 years then in the last few we hit a rough patch or three and have not recovered.

The books overlook the individual's social status, or lack thereof, and the issues with extended families, or how trivial issues that one culture brushes by are mortal sins in another.

The benefit is that children from such relationships have a great opportunity to be true "citizens of the world"; my girls have EU passports and are bilingual (not in either of our native languages ironically ); they also have awesome multi-ethnic looks  and great fashion taste, have traveled the world, etc.

I would say that if it were not for my children I would have chalked the marriage off as a great experiment gone bad and that would be all. I feel there are cultural differences that simply can't be overcome if it gets to that.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> In our culture, there is no hugging from our parents. No hugging from friends or relatives either. When we are little, our parents would hold us or carry us around, but I think the hugging and cuddling stop when we are about ten. Lovers hug and kiss each other when they are still infatuated with each other. But after they get married for some time, a lot of physical affection stops. We don't say "I love you" either. We show our affection from doing things for one another.
> 
> I didn't get much hugging or cuddling when I was little, maybe I need it even more because I didn't have it.


 
Greenpearl, I don't know how it is in Taiwan, but one thing a westerner notices very quickly when arriving in China or Korea is that there is much more contact and affection shown to other members of the same sex. Women often hold hands or link arms with their lady friends. Men don't hold hands so much, but it's not uncommon to see a man with a hand on his friend's shoulder, or each with a hand on each other's shoulder. Still, men don't have as much contact with each other as women do. I do see the younger couples walking with linked arms, but older people do not do so as much. I didn't know if that was a generational difference, or more of a "growing cold" type of thing. I know that my wife and I always link arms or hold hands when walking, and it's been a while since anybody has called us young, but even our western friends comment about us still being affectionate for our ages.

It was kinda humorous to me that when my language teacher started telling me that men don't show as much affection in China and how it made her "jealous" when, in her western students' families, the man would often tell his wife he loves her, or would hug or kiss her. I pointed out to her that there is a lot more contact between members of the same sex in China than what westerners are accustomed to seeing, and her reaction immediately was, "But we're not lesbian!" I knew that, and told her I knew that - I'm actually used to seeing that. She wanted to make sure that I knew that, though, and she went on to explain that they're just close friends.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you ALL for your brilliant and cerebral contributions thus far. Please keep them coming.

Here is a question for you TAM experts:

According to books like the 5LL or His Needs, Her Needs; the recipe for a successful marriage involves learning the love language of your partner and then doing that precise thing.

However, in some cultures, the only real love language is act of service. The true value of a man is how well he can provide for his wife and children. The better he can do this, the more highly regarded he is. For the wife, the better she is able to nurture and sacrifice her time for her family/husband the more highly regarded she is as a wife. That is it. Period!

So, if a person has been cultured this way (let's face it, there's nothing wrong with this in my view), where does this leave the key premise of these books? I ask this question because some people here on TAM hold on to the ideas of these books with little or any caveats at all. 

Surely, books like these which have such a huge following would be best identified as being culture specific. Also, I wonder if the books are actually just telling people what they should need or are actually identifying human behaviour. For example, before 5LL/His Needs Her Needs came along, how did people articulate what they needed? Did these give rise to a defined set of needs or just identified them?

I hope these thoughts make sense?


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I think that's a good set of questions, iBolt, but there is something else involved and that is how many people view marriage from the beginning.

In the west, I think marriage tends to be looked at as primarily a romantic arrangement these days. You have to make the other things work out, too, but they're put secondary, or sometimes even as an afterthought, and the view is that if you don't have romance, you don't have a marriage, or at least don't have a happy or successful marriage.

This next part is changing with generations, but I think in many parts of Asia, marriage was viewed with the priorities almost reversed. Marriage was first a practical arrangement you needed to be able to put together so you had the structure to raise a family, improve yourself in the world, etc. Romance took a secondary position to the other practicalities. It was great if you had it, though.

I listen to the older women talk to my wife sometimes, and I'm almost shocked at how freely they will admit that they don't really like their husbands very much. My wife always makes my heart swell here because, even though it would be very easy for her to just go along with the crowd and complain when they all have complaints, she ALWAYS stands up for me in these discussions and always tells them she likes me, loves me, and if she had it all to do over again, she would want to choose me again. She talks about how she's proud of me and even talks about how we're great romantic partners. To a man like me, that is the greatest feeling in the world - hearing my wife say how she's proud of me.

The other women are often proud of their husbands, too, and it would be very unwise for me to run them down in front of their wives, but the wives feel free to express to each other whether or not they actually like their husbands. Husbands will sometimes do the same thing with me, with one guy even saying in his wife's hearing how if he had a chance to do everything again, he'd like to try life with another wife because he already knew what life with this wife was like. He was trying to get me to say the same, but I couldn't because first of all, I don't think about life without my wife - it's great with her, and that's how I want it to stay, but second, and more important to me, I care about my wife's feelings romantically and otherwise, and I couldn't say something I think would hurt her feelings ... so maybe the first is true because of the second or vice versa. What I'm saying is that the romantic part of the relationship wasn't what I saw emphasized in these situations, although with some, there is romance.

You can't really say to these people that they don't have a successful marriage. They have met the practical side of their marriages very well, and they think of their marriages as being successful. They're proud of the way they have raised children, and what their children have become, and when it comes down to it, they care for each other and provide what the other needs. But their expressions seem to say to me that romance isn't what they see as first priority or most important in their marriages - that's a nice benefit.

Maybe that's another way of saying that they put more emphasis on acts of service. It seems to me to stem from a different attitude toward marriage in the first place, though.

Now with the younger generation, there seems to be a much bigger emphasis on romance ... and their marriage difficulties seem to be mirroring the types of marriage problems we think of in the west more, and less the types of marriage difficulties their parents think of.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

shy_guy said:


> Greenpearl, I don't know how it is in Taiwan, but one thing a westerner notices very quickly when arriving in China or Korea is that there is much more contact and affection shown to other members of the same sex. Women often hold hands or link arms with their lady friends. Men don't hold hands so much, but it's not uncommon to see a man with a hand on his friend's shoulder, or each with a hand on each other's shoulder. Still, men don't have as much contact with each other as women do. I do see the younger couples walking with linked arms, but older people do not do so as much. I didn't know if that was a generational difference, or more of a "growing cold" type of thing. I know that my wife and I always link arms or hold hands when walking, and it's been a while since anybody has called us young, but even our western friends comment about us still being affectionate for our ages.
> 
> It was kinda humorous to me that when my language teacher started telling me that men don't show as much affection in China and how it made her "jealous" when, in her western students' families, the man would often tell his wife he loves her, or would hug or kiss her. I pointed out to her that there is a lot more contact between members of the same sex in China than what westerners are accustomed to seeing, and her reaction immediately was, "But we're not lesbian!" I knew that, and told her I knew that - I'm actually used to seeing that. She wanted to make sure that I knew that, though, and she went on to explain that they're just close friends.


Yes, that's very true. I used to do that until my college teachers (from the States) told me what westerns would think if they saw it. It's common to see girls holding hands and men putting their arms around their friends' shoulders. 

Chinese people are still being influenced a lot by 孔子思想 or 儒家思想 (Confucius or Confucianism). We try to conceal our feelings inside. People who show their feelings obviously are not considered wise. Older people think that love is for young people. After they have been married for some time, their affection will be hindered by traditional thinking. They show their love by doing things for each other, like cooking delicious meals and massaging your legs and back. Men show their affection by giving gifts. 

Taiwan is westernized a lot even though it also keeps a lot of Chinese traditional teachings. I see a lot of couples holding hands here, both young and old.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

iBolt said:


> Thank you ALL for your brilliant and cerebral contributions thus far. Please keep them coming.
> 
> Here is a question for you TAM experts:
> 
> ...


These books help us understand some aspects about life, but they don't change our personality. 

I read a lot of those books too and I learned some information, that's it. What helped me the most is the religious books, they helped me achieve peace and a likable personality.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> Yes, that's very true. I used to do that until my college teachers (from the States) told me what westerns would think if they saw it. It's common to see girls holding hands and men putting their arms around their friends' shoulders.
> 
> Chinese people are still being influenced a lot by 孔子思想 or 儒家思想 (Confucius or Confucianism). We try to conceal our feelings inside. People who show their feelings obviously are not considered wise. Older people think that love is for young people. After they have been married for some time, their affection will be hindered by traditional thinking. They show their love by doing things for each other, like cooking delicious meals and massaging your legs and back. Men show their affection by giving gifts.
> 
> Taiwan is westernized a lot even though it also keeps a lot of Chinese traditional teachings. I see a lot of couples holding hands here, both young and old.


Now that we're on the subject of hand-holding ... I'm curious if this is similar in Taiwan.

My sisters-in-law in Korea often reach out, grab my hand and hold hands with me when we go somewhere together. This happens with my wife present and not with her present. I think most westerners would expect it at times like when my younger SIL had back surgery and I was helping her stabilize when we walked, but even before that, and even when she is fine to walk by herself (something she does a lot, and does very quickly), if we're together, she will often grab my hand and we'll hold hands while we're walking, or sometimes just when we're sitting.

At first, this really made me uncomfortable, and I expected it to make my wife uncomfortable, but years ago, when I asked her about it, she was actually surprised I asked her that. She said it didn't bother her, and in fact, it showed her that they accepted me as part of their family, and I accepted that position in their family.

Just a very different way of looking at it, I guess.

What about in Taiwan?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

shy_guy said:


> Now that we're on the subject of hand-holding ... I'm curious if this is similar in Taiwan.
> 
> My sisters-in-law in Korea often reach out, grab my hand and hold hands with me when we go somewhere together. This happens with my wife present and not with her present. I think most westerners would expect it at times like when my younger SIL had back surgery and I was helping her stabilize when we walked, but even before that, and even when she is fine to walk by herself (something she does a lot, and does very quickly), if we're together, she will often grab my hand and we'll hold hands while we're walking, or sometimes just when we're sitting.
> 
> ...


This is surprising to me. Korea was heavily influenced by Chinese culture. We were taught that you shouldn't touch someone who is opposite sex in public or private. If you do, that's considered inappropriate. I feel uncomfortable sitting next to my brother-in-law, no mention touching. I am really surprised that you sister-in-law would do that and that is acceptable in Korea. It's not acceptable in China or Taiwan. There are a lot of cases which men have affairs with the wives' sisters.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

shy_guy said:


> I think that's a good set of questions, iBolt, but there is something else involved and that is how many people view marriage from the beginning.
> 
> In the west, I think marriage tends to be looked at as primarily a romantic arrangement these days. You have to make the other things work out, too, but they're put secondary, or sometimes even as an afterthought, and the view is that if you don't have romance, you don't have a marriage, or at least don't have a happy or successful marriage.
> 
> ...


Wonderful insights here shy_guy!!! I am happy that you and your wife have things locked down for each other.

I am rather interested in the last paragraph of your post. *Where do you think this "much bigger emphasis on romance" comes from?* 

I am also interested that you suggested a romance-deficit amongst the younger population is now becoming a source of marital problems in these societies.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Wonderful insights here shy_guy!!! I am happy that you and your wife have things locked down for each other.
> 
> I am rather interested in the last paragraph of your post. *Where do you think this "much bigger emphasis on romance" comes from?*
> 
> I am also interested that you suggested a romance-deficit amongst the younger population is now becoming a source of marital problems in these societies.


I think there is a lot of melding of cultures. They are taught a lot more about western culture in school. They have to learn English in school, and they have ready access to western news, music, and TV as well. A lot of them make a great deal of effort to make western friends so they can get practice on their English. (Most see English as an essential skill if they want top-tier jobs, so they emphasize learning it. What they learn in school, they often call "dumb English" because it doesn't really teach them how to speak or use the language in everyday life, even though they know grammar, spelling, etc. very well.) There is also a large diaspora from Korea, so I think most people have at least one relative who lives abroad. It all goes together to bring a lot of western ideas and culture into the mainstream in their country.

I really just mean that when you hear a younger person speaking of problems in their marriages, it seems to be more about the lack of romance or expression, or worry that love will grow cold - the same kinds of things that you hear from westerners although I only listed a couple. When you hear about what their parents think of as marriage problems, it stems from someone not pulling his/her weight, not managing money well, not putting priority on kids, and romantic concerns would be much lower on the list of concerns. Older or younger generation either one would consider an affair to be a huge crisis, though.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> This is surprising to me. Korea was heavily influenced by Chinese culture. We were taught that you shouldn't touch someone who is opposite sex in public or private. If you do, that's considered inappropriate. I feel uncomfortable sitting next to my brother-in-law, no mention touching. I am really surprised that you sister-in-law would do that and that is acceptable in Korea. It's not acceptable in China or Taiwan. There are a lot of cases which men have affairs with the wives' sisters.


This is what I expected, and those affairs with wives' sisters are pretty commonly spoken of the world over - not just the East . That's why I fully expected it to be uncomfortable to my wife, too.

I really don't know how widely this is practiced in Korea because I don't see most of my friends in a situation where BIL and SIL are together in the same room, or walking down the street together. But I know when we go someplace like when we went to the Gyong Ju temple together (pictures in another thread) or to the beach, or even when we took my wife to the eye doctor, my SILs will be very close with me. They don't try to hide it - the people in the Dr. office know they're my SILs, and it doesn't seem to cause any stir ... at least no whispers behind the hand where I can see them. It just seemed to not be noticed or thought about very much.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

shy_guy said:


> This is what I expected, and those affairs with wives' sisters are pretty commonly spoken of the world over - not just the East . That's why I fully expected it to be uncomfortable to my wife, too.
> 
> I really don't know how widely this is practiced in Korea because I don't see most of my friends in a situation where BIL and SIL are together in the same room, or walking down the street together. But I know when we go someplace like when we went to the Gyong Ju temple together (pictures in another thread) or to the beach, or even when we took my wife to the eye doctor, my SILs will be very close with me. They don't try to hide it - the people in the Dr. office know they're my SILs, and it doesn't seem to cause any stir ... at least no whispers behind the hand where I can see them. It just seemed to not be noticed or thought about very much.


If it's OK with them, then it must be OK. Maybe just within families. I remember that Korean girls won't go out with men who are not their family members. 

When you go out with a bunch of girls, it's your responsibility to protect them and run errands for them. At least I am this way!  I make my brother-in-laws do things for me, like carrying stuff.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Hey thanks for broadening this to also include family background in to the culture. I think this is so important. How have you been able to overcome any cultural differences in say attitude to finances, sex, show of affection, domestic responsibilities etc?


"Overcoming" cultural differences is something I disagree with pretty strongly in my circles of immigration acquaintances. 

I knew my wife's culture in some ways better than she did. I had a lot of years there before I met her and as an academician I couldn't help myself in studying her history and culture. 

It's what _attracted_ me to her. It's like a frog needing to "overcome" a pond.

If you don't know their culture, then you don't know _them_. 

This is more of a problem for guys that go onto the internet and about all they know is that they can get a young, beautiful wife overseas that isn't a feminist. That much is true, but you don't know them very well if you are talking about "overcoming" cultural differences after you get involved with them. It should be something you are excited about and find endearing.


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## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

i have a question regarding culture and relationships.. 

if your SO from another culture does something that makes you uncomfortable, but is cultural, is it okay to ask them to stop? 

in my case, in his culture, they sometimes use the wrong English words (and it's not just this example.. like, if they're asking someone to move over, they'll ask them to "extend." anyway..), for example, they sometimes call friends of the opposite gender "sweetie" or "dear", he said, only if it's okay with the other person, and only if their SO is not around, so they don't get the wrong idea. But then he got upset with another friend, mostly mine, but by SO also know him (from his culture) calling me sweetie, because "he should know better". 

it just seems to me that my SO is not okay with my friend calling me sweetie, but it's okay for him to call his female friends sweetie because it's cultural.. 

I'm a little confused about it, and just want to know what others think.. especially others who are in intercultural marriages/relationships


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Kokonatsu, I think those kinds of things are ongoing discussions in many multi-cultural marriages. Sometimes, the spouse sensitizes to it and stops, and sometimes, it becomes "no longer a big deal." I suppose it can become a problem, but I think in our case, none of them have become big problems. Whatever the case, communication about the issues like that is essential I think. Yes, if it bothers you, ask him to stop, and tell him it bothers you. I think you have to be tolerant, but also honest. I'd also point out what you're seeing as a double standard. I'm not trying to give you advice when I say I'd point it out, I'm literally saying I'd point it out in my case if I thought there was a double standard. I'll leave the actual communication you choose to have with your SO up to you, though.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

kokonatsu said:


> if your SO from another culture does something that makes you uncomfortable, but is cultural, is it okay to ask them to stop?


I knew what potential clashes there were with my wife's culture beforehand. 

Our third day together I gave her a little speech about what was important to her and how I not only understood, but that it was what made her the girl for me.

But I also drew my boundaries at the outset, knowing what the pitfalls were going to be. And she tested me. I did send her away once and told her that I had to re-think whether I wanted to be with her. She went home and told her parents it was over. She really did think she blew it. 

What you brought up though is not so much behavioral. Language is something pretty important to help your spouse out with. Americans can be pretty ignorant and petty. Someone who speaks three languages like my wife can have some nasty, stupid things said to them like "speak American" when their pronunciation is not perfect or they have trouble with idioms. 

Make it clear to her that correcting her pronunciation, grammer, use of idioms, etc. is in the interest of protecting her from butt holes and to make her more marketable in the job environment, not to put her down. 

Bahavioral issues that might make for trouble: deal with them before you are married and make sure they are settled. Language is going to require work for years after she gets here, and what you have to agree on is the manner in which you are going to interact. She takes my corrections with a wonderful attitude.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> I knew what potential clashes there were with my wife's culture beforehand.
> 
> Our third day together I gave her a little speech about what was important to her and how I not only understood, but that it was what made her the girl for me.
> 
> ...


It's amazing how idioms, phraseology and tones can have such different impacts across cultures. For example, as a Brit, I absolutely hated the excessive use of the word 'jerk' which my American stbx uses and even worse when she applied it to me. She would try to tell me it's just a whatever in the US but I'm like but in my world it connotes something very rude. 

This however is just a less complex and 'trivial' matter compared to actual cultural practices and norms which can cause huge problems. I entirely agree that trying to discuss and observe these play out before marriage is best. I do think that if both parties tried to understand the rationale behind most foreign cultural practices, they'll find that these norms have a very useful and sensible purpose in the culture. The problem often just comes when you try to transpose that culture onto another - kaboom!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Question is:
> 
> DO you think there is a cultural context which some of these books overlook? *How much do you think culture affects the way couples are able to relate to each other?* I am very interested in your views. Feel free to use your own definition of 'culture'



My father is from Mexico and my Mother’s culture is Iowa American-German.
That probably is more different in culture than British and American. After all a LOT of our culture is from Britain which is our mother country.

In my parent’s marriage cultural differences are HUGE. Their marriage was not the ideal by any stretch of the imagination and cultural differences played a big part of that. However, I think that *a spiritual faith can also be a huge factor in keeping a marriage tougher and providing some blessings.* 


My parents celebrated their 67th anniversary last June. No they are not love birds that hold hands, kiss and hug all the time. However, because of their common faith all the obstacles that break a marriage were defeated and now they enjoy some blessings. All their children and grandchildren visit them a LOT and we often eat together, at least 3 tines a week and always after church on Sundays. *Our social activities and requirements are met 90% by family and we all like it that way*.

If it were not for faith we would all have ruined each others lives as well’s our own. Thank God for mercy and grace and the fact that we held on to our faith and did the right thing from time to time.

*Bottom line for me is this:
Cultural differences can cause a mountain of trouble but when both partners have the same faith and strive to follow that faith all the cultural differences can be overcome.*


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Language is a good one, especially when the two first languages are not even from the same language family. I've actually written humorous pieces on some of the funny language gaffes or moments we've had through the years. (I might have said that somewhere in this thread. If I did, I apologize for repeating). Some of the funnier ones:

When we had only known each other for a few days, before we were even boyfriend and girlfriend (Which wasn't a very long time - we were married less than 3 months after we met), I said something to her. She paused, looked at me, and said, "Mola." I had heard that term several times, but didn't understand it, so I asked, "Mola? What's that mean."

She said, "I don't know."

"You don't know?"

"Yes."

"But it's your language. You just used the word."

"Yes."

"So what's it mean?"

"I don't know."

"Did you know what it meant when you said it?"

She looked a little puzzled, then said, "Yes."

"So why do you tell me you don't know?"

She was getting a little bit frustrated by now, (And so was I) so her voice was much more intense when she said in her heavy accent, "No! Look at me! Listen to me! 'Mola' means 'I don't know!'"


(Of course, I've correct-ified her English in my story ... and it happened almost 29 years ago, so I remember the essence of the story, but the details aren't perfectly conveyed).


That was only the first, though 

In the early days, my wife always confused the words "Chicken" and "Kitchen." I was confused about half the time when she wanted me to take something into that part of the house for her. We've also gone to the Dr. with the words "Diabetes" and "Diarrhea" confused. 

And it's not just my wife, either ... it's not even mainly my wife, it's just that mine are a little harder to explain to an English speaking audience. About 8 years ago (judging from when I wrote the story that included it), I was helping my son with his homework and ran out of an eraser. My wife had a bunch of friends in the front room when I went into the kitchen and started digging through the drawer where I thought we might have one. I'll spare you trying to Romanize the Korean, but my wife spoke to me in Korean asking me "Sweetheart, what are you looking for?" I meant to answer simply in Korean, "I need an eraser," but I got this immediate feeling of dread as soon as I finished my sentence, and the room got entirely quiet. The woman standing just to my right reached into her bag, pulled out a diaper and handed it to me and said in Korean, "Here's one, but I'm not going to put it on you." (And this brings out another point. If you're going to learn a language, you're going to make mistakes, and sometimes, they're FUNNY mistakes. You have to not be afraid to make mistakes, and you have to be able to laugh at yourself along with everybody else ... and boy can they laugh!  )

My oldest sister-in-law had terrible difficulty pronouncing my name. I can't say why here without telling my name, though. It had to do with sounds that the Korean language doesn't have, and consonant clusters that English has that Korean doesn't. Shortly after we were married, we were all together playing a Korean card game, and my Sister-in-law kept trying to talk to me (My Korean was VERY limited at that time). Every time she tried to talk to me, she called me something different, and my wife corrected her. One time, she called me something, and everybody erupted into laughter. We were sitting in the floor as we played, and my mother in law was laughing so hard she literally rolled on the floor. I was the only one not in on what was so funny. Eventually, my wife recovered enough to explain to me that the name she just called me (something that very, VERY vaguely resembled my name) actually was a kind of frilly, sexy women's panties. Apparently a name like that is too good to just use once and forget, so that was my nickname for at least a couple of years. When you get one that good, you wear it with pride, so to speak .

And your kids will definitely get caught up in the cultural mix, and that includes with language. Just one example that I remember making me chuckle was when our elder daughter was dawdling at the table one day, and we needed to get around. My wife spoke sternly to her saying "Pap mogot!" (That just means "Eat!") My daughter answered back in about the tone you can image and said, "I'm pap mogot-ing, mom!"


Just a few examples I thought some might find humorous. We have so many examples, though. I really think a person should learn the spouse's language in a mixed-cultural marriage. It means a lot to the spouse. I don't think it's possible to work out everything before you get married - if you waited until things were perfect, nobody would ever get married - but you need to be ready to deal with the things that are going to be a challenge.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

On a different note, academic studies suggest the US is the most 'individualistic' country in the world in its culture. It is an interesting question whether that is part of the reason for its very high divorce rate.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If I may be so blunt as a hyphenated American myself as to observe that Americans should take more time to learn and explore other things, be it their in laws from 2 states over or 2 continents over, a museum, culture, and over all life experiences instead of killing themselves with over work, over food, and so on.

Individualism is simply an expression of such focus on instant gratification versus a lifetime of expanding one's horizons. Quick marriages and even quicker divorces are simply another symptom on focus on things ephemeral versus things long term.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> If I may be so blunt as a hyphenated American myself as to observe that Americans should take more time to learn and explore other things, be it their in laws from 2 states over or 2 continents over, a museum, culture, and over all life experiences instead of killing themselves with over work, over food, and so on.
> 
> Individualism is simply an expression of such focus on instant gratification versus a lifetime of expanding one's horizons. Quick marriages and even quicker divorces are simply another symptom on focus on things ephemeral versus things long term.


 
While I agree that people (not just Americans) need to broaden their perspectives, I'm going to disagree with much of the reasoning you put in that follows. My reasons are:

In my experience, people everywhere (not just Americans) are familiar with what's near to them. They almost without fail, THINK they know about two states over or two continents over, but almost without fail, what they "know" is ... um ... lacking in accuracy and objective thought. 

Second, there are a lot of cultures and subcultures in America, and I'm talking about among the non-hyphenated Americans as well. You can't really group all of them into one culture and call it "American."

I think Americans about in the middle so far as how much free time they have on average. If you compare them with my European colleagues, Americans work a lot. If you compare them with my colleagues from various parts of Asia, American's don't really work that much. When you look at which of the cultures you would call individualistic from among that collection, I don't think it lines up with your point.

I also think individualism and instant gratification are unrelated to each other, and I think quick marriages are unrelated to either in many cases. One anecdote I'm familiar with is my own where my wife and I were married less than 3 months after we met. Our story is rather complex, and I've related it other places and don't want to do so again here, but our reasons were not individualistic at all ... in fact, they would be called ill-advised by many who were considering looking out for oneself, and our friends all took bets on how many months it would be before we divorced ... I have to wonder if any of them said we'd still be happily married 28 years later.

I still agree that everybody, Americans included, but not limited to Americans, should expand their horizons and learn about other cultures, countries, peoples, and continents, but that includes taking apart that big group of un-hyphenated Americans and recognizing different cultures within that group.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

John117, tryingtobebetter and shy_guy

Great contributions. Thanks. 

I am intrigued by the idea of learning languages/valuing culture of partner. If I was to apply this to one of the key questions in OP about cultural dimensions of some of the popular marriage help books oft cited on TAM, I sense that some of these books are quite individualistic and about having one's needs met. Subsequently, if my needs are met or 'love tank' is filled, I can then give back to you.

The sort of scratch my back-and- I scratch yours attitude seems to over-romanticise marriage relationships. I think Hollywood and the individualistic western approach does not always help. There seems to be a different utilitarian approach to marriage which sometimes results in the 'since I am not getting anything out of this - then it must be a bad marriage. Goodbye'

I am not suggesting at all that having one's needs met in a marriage is a bad thing at all. Far from it, but rather, I think that a successful marriage is sometimes just all about gritty hard-slugging - needs or no needs. Having tons of very close friends from Africa and South Asia, while also living in Britain and worked around a lot of Americans, I am surprised how much the British/American style is so based on romance and this 'feeling thing' whereas the others just seems much more communal.. Just a thought.

PS: Lest I offend any staunch advocates of the needs based approach to relationships please note I am merely offering a critique of this very popular view from a cultural perspective. I am also not condemning any particular culture - each has its drawbacks


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Thank you ALL for your brilliant and cerebral contributions thus far. Please keep them coming.
> 
> Here is a question for you TAM experts:
> 
> ...


I agree fully with your thoughts.
I see it as cultural relativity.
It is something I've also noticed a bit here on TAM.
And sometimes I've been disturbed on how quickly people label or condemn things which they see as different or don't understand.

Some seem to think that there is _one way_, and anything outside of that way is heresy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

iBolt said:


> The sort of scratch my back-and- I scratch yours attitude seems to over-romanticise marriage relationships. I think Hollywood and the individualistic western approach does not always help.* There seems to be a different utilitarian approach to marriage which sometimes results in the 'since I am not getting anything out of this - then it must be a bad marriage. Goodbye'*


Again,
I agree.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

shy_guy said:


> I also think individualism and instant gratification are unrelated to each other, and I think quick marriages are unrelated to either in many cases. One anecdote I'm familiar with is my own where my wife and I were married less than 3 months after we met.


Individualism and instant gratification, while not related, are parts of the same issue. Everyone is looking for the perfect fit, the perfect match, whether for a college, smartphone, or spouse. That is individualism in my European bred head at least. And, of course, we want it now. No worry about consequences. Just consult Consumer Reports if it is a toaster, or Facebook if it's a person...

To those two add eternal optimism and you have it made. When two people contemplate marriage, the combination of those three trumps any notion of reality. In a lot of cases it works, I don't dispute it. But in a lot of cases it does not. Jumping into a multicultural marriage is a lot of work, especially after the elation of "different" fades and the reality of paying the bills sinks in. The allure of "different" seems to impair a lot of people into thinking that wishing for something makes it happen.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree fully with your thoughts.
> I see it as cultural relativity.
> It is something I've also noticed a bit here on TAM.
> And sometimes I've been disturbed on how quickly people label or condemn things which they see as different or don't understand.
> ...


I also agree that there seems to be an orthodoxy view which much of the Western literature on marriage follows. Consequently, therapy focus follows this orthodoxy too. I however see the merits of these taking a very simplistic attitude though. For example it is only human to get fed up of not being fed. So, if you don't want your spouse to get fed up, feed him or her. Essentially, it's not inconceivable that you then start and continue feeding spouse for the wrong reasons ie fear of being alone, duty, public perception etc 

I totally concur that the above is simply what one has to do to make things work. You know, the gritty hard slugging portion that's sometimes dry but I am very sceptical about it being the starting point of a healthy relationship. I fear that in a skewed and inadvertent way, these books and the ideas they have spawned have created an entitlement culture in marriages where a spouse believes s/he 'deserves' this or that because Drs. Phil, Jones and Hollywood said so. Broadly applied, most people rarely believe they're getting out of something what they deserve. This could be our pay packets from work, rewards for raising a family, accolades for being part of a team or yes, in a relationship. We'd often think we deserve more. Kinda reminds me of my shock horror when time came for me to sell my first car. The guy told me he could only pay one third of what I felt I deserved. My second car was so poorly valued that the garage wanted ME to pay HIM £50 to take it off me! Suffice to say I never became a car salesman. 

So I think a culture and mindset is being created which only sets some couples up for failure partly due to some of the ideas being championed by these marriage relationship gurus. 


Again, I hope these make sense 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

iBolt said:


> John117, tryingtobebetter and shy_guy
> 
> Great contributions. Thanks.
> 
> ...




I'm really interested in hearing more on your thoughts about this. I'm just really intrigued by this idea.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

kokonatsu said:


> I'm really interested in hearing more on your thoughts about this. I'm just really intrigued by this idea.



Kokonatsu

Which part of my stream of consciousness would you like me to elaborate on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

iBolt said:


> The sort of scratch my back-and- I scratch yours attitude seems to over-romanticise marriage relationships. I think Hollywood and the individualistic western approach does not always help. There seems to be a different utilitarian approach to marriage which sometimes results in the 'since I am not getting anything out of this - then it must be a bad marriage. Goodbye'
> 
> I am not suggesting at all that having one's needs met in a marriage is a bad thing at all. Far from it, but rather, I think that a successful marriage is sometimes just all about gritty hard-slugging - needs or no needs. Having tons of very close friends from Africa and South Asia, while also living in Britain and worked around a lot of Americans, I am surprised how much the British/American style is so based on romance and this 'feeling thing' whereas the others just seems much more communal.. Just a thought.



this part.. if you're not focusing on loving the other person by meeting their needs, then what?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

kokonatsu said:


> this part.. if you're not focusing on loving the other person by meeting their needs, then what?


Some people are genuinely confused about the difference between needs and wants.
Sometimes when both parties work together for a common goal like building the tangible aspects of the family , providing food, shelter , security and a future inheritance for their offspring, their other needs get met because they are able to differentiate more clearly between needs and wants. Perception is key and materialism clouds perception sometimes.
If both parties sense of perception are in sync, and they have the same long term goals and values ,they achieve a higher level of understanding of each other's _real_ needs.

This is like the principle of delayed gratification.

If all a person's needs are met today , tomorrow their needs would be different , and nobody can keep up with that.
Human beings are multi dimensional The principle of diminished returns may apply here .
Compromise is the key. But in order to benefit , both parties must have the same value system.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

A tip for people with language differences and cultural idioms is to speak in complete sentences that convey the entire meaning. 

For example, husband might observe and ask "You didn't lock the door?

Wife answers "No". Well, "No" can mean she disagrees with the statement, and it could also mean "No, she didn't lock the door". I found this extremely annoying and it was a corollary to also being lazy about things she was saying on her own or questions she was asking. 

Because the follow-up question is "Do you mean you disagree with the sentence, or do you mean you did not lock the door?"

"Yes". 

So you have to go check the door to see if it is locked.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

For me, it's not about culture (well, we'd have to be compatible in world views) but in FAMILY culture.

I'll never get involved with someone with a horrible family/childhood again. Whoa no.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> A tip for people with language differences and cultural idioms is to speak in complete sentences that convey the entire meaning.
> 
> For example, husband might observe and ask "You didn't lock the door?
> 
> ...


People who naturally speak English take it for granted , and don't understand how complex English really is.

Language and Linguistics fascinate me.
I have friends who are Spanish and also friends who are French.
Both are learning English as a second language , and its amazing how simple English expressions and syntax confuse them. Much of it is lost in translation.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> People who naturally speak English take it for granted , and don't understand how complex English really is.
> 
> Language and Linguistics fascinate me.
> I have friends who are Spanish and also friends who are French.
> Both are learning English as a second language , and its amazing how simple English expressions and syntax confuse them. Much of it is lost in translation.


Sure. I speak Spanish fluently enough to get along in almost any Spanish-speaking country and that gave me an appreciation for how discourteous people can be about another issue - general communication clarity.

I constantly ran into people who would look the other way, trail off at the end of sentences, fail to pronounce consonants, skip whole syllables - they can't even speak their own language correctly.

The worst experiences I ever had were in Chile. They are famous for speaking too rapidly to understand, but it turns out that isn't actually what they are doing. They skip whole syllables and merge groups of words into new conglomerate terms.

For example, "dos pesos" becomes the single word "do-pe". If you cluster that with ten other words in a sentence that are being spoken short-hand like that, it is impossible to understand them. 

For a very short time I had a Chilean girlfriend who thought it was really funny to tell her friends that they needed to speak slowly and pronounce all the letters in the words in order for me to keep up with the conversation. Then they would do just exactly the opposite and laugh about how fun it was. Ha ha, look at us, he can't understand what we're saying. Bye-bye you inconsiderate twit. 

I think about how important it has been for my wife to understand everything going on. She is the most important person in the room no matter where we are, and I am careful about asking her if she understands any idioms being used.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

But you do know that there are different Spanish " dialects ."
Mexicans speak one.
Columbians speak another.
Venezuelans & Cubans & Dominicans speak yet another
Spain speak another version.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> But you do know that there are different Spanish " dialects ."
> Mexicans speak one.
> Columbians speak another.
> Venezuelans & Cubans & Dominicans speak yet another
> Spain speak another version.


Absolutely. My mother was a professional interpreter. Mostly for multinational investment banks doing business in a number of different countries simultaneously. That is where I learned my Spanish before taking classes in it, and she was always keen on the difference between "translation" and "interpretation". 

You can be doing pure translation and make mistakes about what people mean depending on what dialect or culture they are from. An interpreter is more valuable than a translator in that respect. 

Even so, what you find is that the professional class with higher education in all of these countries are much easier to understand than ignorant back-country folks, just like in the U.S. with English.


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

Depends on the maturity of the individuals, but being married to someone too similar can get boring. Being with someone different can keep things fresh and also challenge ideas from time to time. It just all depends on how open their minds are.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Absolutely. My mother was a professional interpreter. Mostly for multinational investment banks doing business in a number of different countries simultaneously. That is where I learned my Spanish before taking classes in it, and she was always keen on the difference between "translation" and "interpretation".
> 
> You can be doing pure translation and make mistakes about what people mean depending on what dialect or culture they are from. An interpreter is more valuable than a translator in that respect.
> 
> Even so, what you find is that the professional class with higher education in all of these countries are much easier to understand than ignorant back-country folks, just like in the U.S. with English.


Absolutely!
Lucky you mom was a professional
The study of languages is beautiful.

I'm still working on both my Spanish & French.
I also want to learn Portugese, its close to Spanish.

In parting, may I leave you with this , in keeping with the experience you posted about being with a Chilean woman and her friends;

_¿Podría usted hablar más lento, por favor?_:rofl:

LOL!


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> _¿Podría usted hablar más lento, por favor?_:rofl:


You know, with this Chilean girl I said that to her three times after I got up in the morning and she said something indecipherable to me. 

She ignored me the first time. She ignored me the second time.

The third time, she responded by speaking in English, reeeeeeaaaaallly slow: How.....did.....you.....sleep....last....night

I KNEW she was going to do that - say it in English instead of Spanish - and I said so. "You don't want me to hear the pronunciation, because this is a fun little power trip for you". She laughed, and still refused to say it for me slowly enough to hear. 

I dumped her.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

I am Christian and married to a Muslim man. It's not the religion that tore us apart, and I think religion and culture get confused a lot.

Meaning.. culture shapes religion.

Yes there are some things that are different, but mostly we had - what I thought were the same interests and views on life.
What did break us up were his anger, emotional and financial abuse.

The culture aspect we could have worked through but not the other stuff. I think that usually it's the bigger issues not petty cultural differences that would tear people apart.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

bunny23 said:


> I am Christian and married to a Muslim man. It's not the religion that tore us apart, and I think religion and culture get confused a lot.
> 
> Meaning.. culture shapes religion.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what you say, but to some people cultural issues are big issues.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

I'm American woman married to a Dominican.
He grew up in NY from the time he was 14, but there still wasn't much need for him to learn English. 
He now has a heavy Dominican accent when he speaks English. And he still has trouble with some words and phrases.
He was raised very traditionally in DR, and had a mixed childhood of awesome countryside-life and city life of maids/cooks/nanny's. Until he moved to NY when it all changed drastically.

When I first met him I really appreciated how different he was. He's exotic and exciting, his fluent Spanish is beautiful, he's passionate and energetic. His stories of home were like another world. Something I never really saw or experienced in the American men I dated.

We've come to a crossroads in our marriage as I think Latinos can still be very traditional in their roles. In the beginning we were very clear about our expectations...and he was not worried about his girl have a super-clean house and cooking all the time. And he doesn't mind helping around the house. He was more interested in the brain and personality. Perfect. I should've seen the warning signs a year or so into the relationship with his little comments here and there about something not being clean, or he was not eating very good anymore...etc. It probably should have made me second-guess my relationship and if this is what I wanted because he was hinting at another direction. But I didn't. Now I do everything around the house by myself (albeit not perfectly out of protest), and find myself getting guilt-tripped if I decide not to cook.

I think that maybe he has realised that there's real value for him in a woman that can be a super-woman around the house...like his grandma or his mother. And not only do things for their family like work to make money, but bend over backwards, cook and clean all the time without a complaint and without a second-thought as to why they are cleaning up after their lazy children. Like it's their lot in life to do so. I was raised oh-so-different than this. I feel like I work too, so we should share. And sometimes I just want cereal for dinner, and I'm ok with it. 

With his English I think there are many miscommunications and misunderstandings. And I know I sometimes forget that his English is not A+....so when he says something on the side of insulting...I will generally react. 

Our marriage is basically up in the air...and it's sad. It was so beautiful in the beginning....

I think people that are interested in a multi-cultural relationship need to make sure they state their true values in the beginning. Make sure you know what makes you happy in your day-to-day relationship and home life. I don't know what changed over time, but something did....and I love him so much I have been unable to stand up for myself to the point and say 'accept me for who I am or leave.' I'm scared to. 

Learn the other culture as best as possible. Find out from others what their experience was dating someone from that culture, just in case. Ask questions. Be clear up front about who you are. That's the best anyone can do I think. Other than that...enjoy the journey  It can be a beautiful thing.


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## Fallen Leaf (May 27, 2013)

I'm in a mixed marriage too and we don't have any problems...but I grew up in the US (came from Asia when I was 4) and he was born here. I was brought up semi-culturally but I didn't care much for the culture so it was easy. Husband grew up in a strange household and didn't want to have anything to do with that too so I guess that's probably why we're a match. It's not a happily-ever-after marriage but we're both very happy where we're at. Don't get me wrong when I say, we're happy where we're at. This just means within our family (our children, husband, and I). We do have influences and stress from outside and extended family but they don't determine our happiness as a family. Husband and I stick up for each other and support each other and respect each other. This is a strong part of our foundation and something I feel is necessary to keep a marriage going. Communication is by far the most important part of our marriage. I was raised to be quiet and listen to my parents but there was always a part of me (not tied to any culture or beliefs, but just who I am as a human being) that always had to be honest and open. If I didn't like something you did, I'd say it exactly how I felt. If I needed to tell you that I miss you and can't live without you, I'd explain it. I was always open. When husband and I were dating, I told him straight up exactly what I wanted because I wanted a certain life and my goal was to work toward it. I told him if he didn't agree with me or if he still wanted to play the field, to let me know, so that I can move on. I told him, I'd be hurt but I'd get over it. Fortunately he felt the same way. We've been married for over 12 years now and things have gotten even better. I'm really excited for our future because we both want the same thing and we continue to grow in that direction.

Although I am Asian, I don't have this thing about keeping the house spotless, or this or that. My house is a mess right now and I clean it when I have time or when guests are coming but even then, it's not spotless. I don't give money to family members except to my parents once a year (long story but has very little to do with culture). I'm okay with managing money and so is husband. I'm better at managing money than husband though but far from good. I don't cook everyday. I only cook when I feel like making something or saving money otherwise we'll go out to eat or husband will grill up something. And, when I do cook, it's so that our kids get fed. Sometimes I won't have any leftovers for husband but he'll grab something on his way home at a fast food place or something. He irons his own work clothes, he does the yard work, helps equally with the kids homework, baths, etc. I tend to tidy up the house more...the dishes (but he does them too just not as often as I do since I am mostly home), laundry (he washes his own work clothes most the time...and will wash my every day wear clothes + the kids clothes when he can), mop the house (he has never done this but it's because he doesn't like doing it just like I don't like mowing the lawn), etc. We just do what we can. There's no line saying he should do this or that. There's nothing saying my "culture" is over his, etc. Nothing. We do what we can do to give our kids a wonderful and fulfilling life and when they move on and into their own lives, we will be two old people sitting on our comfy chairs and watching the sunset, smiling and knowing that we raised two beautiful kids all the while, supporting each other and loving each other with no limits. This is what I wanted and it's been the only thing I've wanted...and it takes me back to that moment I had that conversation with my husband while we were dating.

I know too that sometimes life takes a turn and the perfect ending doesn't happen, but the goal is to work toward the things that mean the most to me, and be happy within my ability.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Fallen Leaf said:


> I'm in a mixed marriage too and we don't have any problems...but I grew up in the US (came from Asia when I was 4) and he was born here. I was brought up semi-culturally but I didn't care much for the culture so it was easy. Husband grew up in a strange household and didn't want to have anything to do with that too so I guess that's probably why we're a match. It's not a happily-ever-after marriage but we're both very happy where we're at. Don't get me wrong when I say, we're happy where we're at. This just means within our family (our children, husband, and I). We do have influences and stress from outside and extended family but they don't determine our happiness as a family. Husband and I stick up for each other and support each other and respect each other. This is a strong part of our foundation and something I feel is necessary to keep a marriage going. Communication is by far the most important part of our marriage. I was raised to be quiet and listen to my parents but there was always a part of me (not tied to any culture or beliefs, but just who I am as a human being) that always had to be honest and open. If I didn't like something you did, I'd say it exactly how I felt. If I needed to tell you that I miss you and can't live without you, I'd explain it. I was always open. When husband and I were dating, I told him straight up exactly what I wanted because I wanted a certain life and my goal was to work toward it. I told him if he didn't agree with me or if he still wanted to play the field, to let me know, so that I can move on. I told him, I'd be hurt but I'd get over it. Fortunately he felt the same way. We've been married for over 12 years now and things have gotten even better. I'm really excited for our future because we both want the same thing and we continue to grow in that direction.
> 
> Although I am Asian, I don't have this thing about keeping the house spotless, or this or that. My house is a mess right now and I clean it when I have time or when guests are coming but even then, it's not spotless. I don't give money to family members except to my parents once a year (long story but has very little to do with culture). I'm okay with managing money and so is husband. I'm better at managing money than husband though but far from good. I don't cook everyday. I only cook when I feel like making something or saving money otherwise we'll go out to eat or husband will grill up something. And, when I do cook, it's so that our kids get fed. Sometimes I won't have any leftovers for husband but he'll grab something on his way home at a fast food place or something. He irons his own work clothes, he does the yard work, helps equally with the kids homework, baths, etc. I tend to tidy up the house more...the dishes (but he does them too just not as often as I do since I am mostly home), laundry (he washes his own work clothes most the time...and will wash my every day wear clothes + the kids clothes when he can), mop the house (he has never done this but it's because he doesn't like doing it just like I don't like mowing the lawn), etc. We just do what we can. There's no line saying he should do this or that. There's nothing saying my "culture" is over his, etc. Nothing. We do what we can do to give our kids a wonderful and fulfilling life and when they move on and into their own lives, we will be two old people sitting on our comfy chairs and watching the sunset, smiling and knowing that we raised two beautiful kids all the while, supporting each other and loving each other with no limits. This is what I wanted and it's been the only thing I've wanted...and it takes me back to that moment I had that conversation with my husband while we were dating.
> 
> I know too that sometimes life takes a turn and the perfect ending doesn't happen, but the goal is to work toward the things that mean the most to me, and be happy within my ability.


Your marriage in some aspects sound like ours.
I'm in a mixed marriage also . Our roles are not rigid either .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I believe there's a huge difference between growing up in the USA after arriving with one's family and being FOB (fresh off the boat) at age 20 with the rest of your family at home in the old country.

The first case is not much different than my daughters who were born in the USA. The second is a whole new six pack of cans of worms. 

My girls can effortlessly switch between my culture (western Europe), mom's culture (the fun-oppressing People's Republic of Farawaystan) and American culture. I can switch between the very similar culture of my birth country and the USA while my wife is still stuck in the old country and its traditions.


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## Fallen Leaf (May 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> I believe there's a huge difference between growing up in the USA after arriving with one's family and being FOB (fresh off the boat) at age 20 with the rest of your family at home in the old country.
> 
> The first case is not much different than my daughters who were born in the USA. The second is a whole new six pack of cans of worms.
> 
> My girls can effortlessly switch between my culture (western Europe), mom's culture (the fun-oppressing People's Republic of Farawaystan) and American culture. I can switch between the very similar culture of my birth country and the USA while my wife is still stuck in the old country and its traditions.


I halfway disagree with what you said about growing up in the U.S. and being FOB. I know people who were born and raised here and they are still extremely cultural. I am not sure what it is but I believe some of it has to do with upbringing and environment but not really the cultural exposure per se.

My kids are totally non-asian on the inside. On the outside one looks white and the other looks mixed. The one that looks white shows no signs of Asian-ness so she is pretty much all white. Not sure how that happened. My other child looks mixed and more on the Asian side. She has been bullied and people have asked if she's Chinese (she's not and I'm not) so she's got a little racism experience that has confused her a bit.

What do you mean they and you switch between cultures? I don't get it. Does your mind like warp from one culture to the other or something? I'd like some of that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's all about the chance that an FOB will act this way or that versus a hyphenated. I grew up with American and British TV, music, and so on and had a pretty good idea what I was going to find. True that, I was not surprised. Other FOB's took forever to accomplish what I did in a matter of weeks. But I was unusual, just like hyphenateds that still think they're in the country of their parents (think Big Fat Greek Wedding, ABCD, and other epics of ethnic identity. 

In general, marrying a 2nd generation hyphenated has less drama than marrying an FOB in my experience. You have more common points of reference, you get to meet relatives way ahead, and in a way you acclimate with them like they do with you. Now it could be they grew up in an ethnic enclave and can't fathom half of what they should but still there's cultural dilution early on. 

My own experience dating Asian fellow FOB students was quite different than if I had dated Asian Americans. 

My daughters do actually warp in and out of Asian (central), European, and American culture. They're well travelled and adjust their cultural expectations accordingly. As Asians they are hard working students, as Europeans they are also focused on enjoying life, and as Americans they're practical and optimistic. They're well versed in all three cultures and their offerings, i.e. music, art, poetry, sports, etc. One has the Eurasian look while the other the porcelain European looks. Both are bilingual but not in either of our native languages.

Really, all it means is that they're not using a single culture as reference.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lol,
John,
when I was reading your post and I saw the term FOB, immediately my mind read it as _" Freight On Board ."_
Its a term our suppliers overseas use when sending us quotations, and vice versa.
Part of my everyday " business jargon."
Kinda made me chuckle.

End threadjack!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As my Indian friend said, when two Indians cross each other in the street, the degree they turn their heads AWAY from each other is proportional to their difference in immigration status (ie both green cards or H1 or citizens they look straight ahead, one citizen and one H1, 180 degrees and so on . The same friend told me about FOB.

And coming from a homogeneous country, I absolutely love this free for all diversity. As much as I think mixed marriages are a lot of work the experience is worth the trouble... 

It's a very small planet come to think of it...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I come from a very culturally diverse country.
It's so diverse that sometimes its funny.
Nowhere is this more obvious than in our religions.
On one street you will see a Masjid situated a stones throw away from a Catholic Church . Behind that Catholic Church one might see a Mandir.
It's so funny , that some religions now alter their teachings to suit mixed marriages and families.
Quite interesting.
But my belief is that in spite of cultural differences , people are alike in many aspects. With inter cultural marriages , strengthening similarities such as common values is a good place to start.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I've been to the Caribbeans several times and their idea of diversity far exceeds ours. They're so diverse to begin with that nothing is too diverse . One only has to look at Caribbean art, music, and food.

The same to some extent is for the USA as a whole and some European or Asian countries. But many other countries in Europe or Asia are too homogeneous and marrying into that can get very entertaining esp. If you're a homogeneous type yourself. That was the case with me and my wife.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Culture shapes expectations and approaches - so it can have a big influence on marriages. I do think that, with sufficient flexibility, most gaps can be bridged.

For my wife, marriage is a practical arrangement - and the expectation is that:
(a) both partners are obligated to maintain the R/S
This means that, eg, periodic sex is a requirement, not an option for either partner. So is making time to spend together.
(b) divorce is not an option, unless in actual danger of death
(c) women are subordinate*

She's from a violent, expressive culture with strong bonds. So, on one hand, screaming, throwing things, and beating the **** out of people is somewhat normal. But, on the other hand, forgiveness is easy.

I basically agree on the expectations, excepting that I expected to encourage initiative on her part. But, I'm a complete opposite on approach - so that's been hard. Her parents have a stable marriage, although the wife has hated her husband for probably 30 years.

--Argyle
*For a truly odd value of 'subordinate'. I sat on a plane once next to an American guy looking for a passive, obedient woman...laughed when he suggested Korean (truly a bad, bad choice).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Few people I know who married such perceived 'subordinate' women achieved much of the expected result in inter cultural marriages. Not unless the women were raised outside their birth country. India could be an exception tho I don't have much in terms of data, I know a fair number of Indian guys married to non Indian women but not the other way around. Indonesia probably too, maybe Thailand and I know a couple. But many of the traditionally thought of as 'subordinate' women are anything but. Would make for a heck of a PhD thesis...

I am guessing the lessening of the impact of the home culture in the USA may turn the perceived 'subordinate' into an anything but. Maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy that non-ethnics who are attracted to such women are not as 'alpha' (lolz galore) as those marrying non-ethnic women say from Lubbock TX... (I love Texas btw)

Any sociology majors around? This should be an awesome research topic...


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