# Is Debt Enough Reason To End Things?



## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

i am engaged and have just recently found out about my fiances debt, i have been living with her for about a year now,

she is very secretive about it but im estimating her debt at about 60,000 dollars, that i know of,

this is only her consumer debt like credit cards and lines of credit, on top of that she has a car loan, a mortgage, and obviously house bills, all of which i help out with seeing as we are living together,

basically i am refusing to get married until this is taken care of, i dont want this piling on me, i have even thought about moving out and either ending things or just taking a temporary break and see how things turn out,

does this sound selfish of me? this amount of debt really scares me, i love her, but i dont want to end up paying for this when all the debt is hers and not mine,

selling her house will not even pay off half of what she owes,

im drinking alot lately, which is not like me, to try to relieve some stress which i know is not a good thing, i am lost and dont know what to do anymore, i have nobody to talk to about this and i dont know how to handle it anymore,


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

First step is to figure out the whole truth. She needs to be open and honest.

Figure out if bankruptcy before you marry is an option.

Both become financially literate so this doesn't pile up more or happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

anx said:


> First step is to figure out the whole truth. She needs to be open and honest.
> 
> Figure out if bankruptcy before you marry is an option.
> 
> ...


thanks,

she is refusing to go bankrupt or do a debt consolidation because she does not want to lose her credit and credit cards for 5+ years so that option is out, 

she seems like she wants to try to pay this off somehow and has hinted that i should help out more with the bills so she can put more money towards her debts, i dont think that is fair because then its kind of like im helping her pay off the debt


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## roamingmind (Jul 20, 2011)

First of all, stop drinking --it doesn't solve problem. If you are stressed, go to gym and punch on bags. 

You are not being selfish; you have been helping her with bills. If that much of debt is just consumer debt, you will have to worry about her shopping habits because once you are married, her bad habbits could ruin your fiance.

If she wants to marry you, she needs to be open about her debt problem and a practical strategy to take care of them. Otherwise, I think you should wait.

Best luck.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Has your fiance sought help for her gambling problem? Your problem goes way deeper than debt.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> Has your fiance sought help for her gambling problem? Your problem goes way deeper than debt.


no she has not, and i admit it is or was a problem, she has not gambled now in well over six months, no casinos, not even lottery tickets (although she never bough those regularily), but the issue at hand is do you think i am justified in leaving the relationship for the debt alone?


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

One of the healthiest things that could happen is to lose her credit cards for 5 years. if she filed solo bankruptcy, you could help support her in the time of the mess. You both would be better off I think.

She needs to actually she may lose you over this. If she chose her debt over you, that's a terrible sign. 

Debt builds up with secrets and lies. It sounds like she has done that to you. I would be willing to totally walk away unless she tells you the 100% truth now. Otherwise she will be trapped in this mess when you are trying to start a marriage together. Lies in a marriage are like cancer.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I think your maybe justified if she is unwilling to open up and tell you the truth. It's not about debt if she wants to enter a marriage based on lies and hiding things from you.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

anx said:


> One of the healthiest things that could happen is to lose her credit cards for 5 years. if she filed solo bankruptcy, you could help support her in the time of the mess. You both would be better off I think.
> 
> She needs to actually she may lose you over this. If she chose her debt over you, that's a terrible sign.
> 
> Debt builds up with secrets and lies. It sounds like she has done that to you. I would be willing to totally walk away unless she tells you the 100% truth now. Otherwise she will be trapped in this mess when you are trying to start a marriage together. Lies in a marriage are like cancer.


thanks, i agree with you 100%

talking to her is like pulling teeth though, i ask her questions and she just sits there and ignores me


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

This is a personal judgement call that you need to make for yourself, there is no clear right or wrong. For example, I paid out $20k for dental work for my wife, I also financed housing rehab and let her share in the profits when we sold (my house, she was renting). And now she's leaving me. However I may feel about the outcome, I would do the same things today under the same circumstances because it was the right thing for me to do. You have to know in your heart what is the right thing for you because you can't depend on future expectations. If you take on her 60k and she walks out on you, you have to be right in your heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> talking to her is like pulling teeth though, i ask her questions and she just sits there and ignores me


This being the case, I think you are (perhaps) only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Debt is a very, very serious thing - particularly in this shaky economy. You have legitimate questions and you, as her fiance, have a right to honest financial disclosure from her.

Please don't marry her at this point in time. Cancel any wedding plans. Set a boundary by telling her that until she is willing to be HONEST with you about her debts, you will not marry her.

Then wait to see which road she chooses.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes. this woman is not marriage material run for the hills or you most likley will regret not doing so.

sorry to be so blunt but I call it like I see it.there are plenty of fish in the sea cast out for another one.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> no she has not, and i admit it is or was a problem, she has not gambled now in well over six months, no casinos, not even lottery tickets (although she never bough those regularily), but the issue at hand is do you think i am justified in leaving the relationship for the debt alone?


I'm going to be blunt and say yes you are justififed. The secrecy, the fact she didn't seek help for the gambling addiction, the fact that this is causing you stress and you are drinking. If she had money I guarantee she'd be gambling again. Addictions don't usually disappear because you will them too. She needs professional help and you can't save her.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> This being the case, I think you are (perhaps) only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Debt is a very, very serious thing - particularly in this shaky economy. You have legitimate questions and you, as her fiance, have a right to honest financial disclosure from her.
> 
> Please don't marry her at this point in time. Cancel any wedding plans. Set a boundary by telling her that until she is willing to be HONEST with you about her debts, you will not marry her.
> 
> Then wait to see which road she chooses.


thanks, there actually are no wedding plans to cancel, this our second marriage for both of us so it would be small, we are engaged but have not made any plans whatsoever or even set a wedding date, so that is not an issue,


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Bottom line....

This is as good as it's going to get. She is not going to be all open and honest about finances after you get married if she isn't now. Ignoring your attempts at conversation is the actual deal breaker. 
That is not going to improve later. 

So, it's not so much about the debt. You could marry her and combine all your finances, and work on her debt as a couple, or marry her and keep separate finances and decide how much (if any) to contribute toward her debt, or wait and see if she can straighten it out, or if she will discuss/plan options for getting out of debt..... or walk away. 

Alot of choices, and none of them will assure you that she will communicate helpfully or that she won't rack up more debt after you get married. How will a marriage function if you don't have a meeting of the minds, similar goals, ability to discuss problems, etc....


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> I'm going to be blunt and say yes you are justififed. The secrecy, the fact she didn't seek help for the gambling addiction, the fact that this is causing you stress and you are drinking. If she had money I guarantee she'd be gambling again. Addictions don't usually disappear because you will them too. She needs professional help and you can't save her.


thanks and i agree,

see the thing is i feel a bit guilty by basically turning a blind eye to the gambling, honestly i always felt like it was under control but apparently not,

in her defense though, probably only about 10-20% of the debt is gambling related, other is just consumer debt and debt that has incurred from her previous marriage,

i feel guilty because i have participated on some of the casino and gambling trips we took, but i know my limits and when to stop,


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

anx said:


> One of the healthiest things that could happen is to lose her credit cards for 5 years.


If she is so in debt that she thinks keeping her credit card is an answer, she really needs to be better informed.

$60K+ debt that you know of does not give her any good reason to keep charging things. She ought to cut up any card she currently has and consult with a debt consolidator.

Do not marry her while this is hanging over her head.

She dug this financial hole with someone else. Is she looking to you to dig her out?

Don't fall into that trap!

BTW, someone who owes that much money should have a ZERO limit for gambling. Owing $12K (presuming your 20% figure of $60k) on gambling is appalling.

BTW II, stop drinking, it's not helping your life.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> in her defense though, probably only about 10-20% of the debt is gambling related, other is just consumer debt and debt that has incurred from her previous marriage,


Doesn't matter because she also appears to have a shopping addiction. She fills needs with "stuff". She's not a very happy person.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

michzz said:


> If she is so in debt that she thinks keeping her credit card is an answer, she really needs to be better informed.
> 
> $60K+ debt that you know of does not give her any good reason to keep charging things. She ought to cut up any card she currently has and consult with a debt consolidator.
> 
> ...


i agree,

she went to see about debt consolidation, basically it would having her pay 1,000 a month for 5 years and losing all her credit cards, she has decided against it,

and while i agree the gambling contributed to the debt i didnt want that to become the topic of the thread, i want to know if im justified leaving because im feeling bad if i end up going that route,


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

anx said:


> I think your maybe justified if she is unwilling to open up and tell you the truth. It's not about debt if she wants to enter a marriage based on lies and hiding things from you.


Agreed! If she's not truthful going into the marriage, don't expect her to change after say I do! 

You asked if it was selfish to break it off due to money/debt - this has a lot to do with honesty and integrity - and I don't think anyone would say expecting honesty is selfish.

Good luck!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

You are right to set this boundary, if she can't manage her financial responsibiilty it speaks somewhat to how she may deal with other responsibilities. A marriage requires honesty and transparency so she will have to learn to be truthful about this. If she makes a real effort at trying to fix this problem of hers it will go a long way, don't expect that she will pay it off before you marry, but atleast she needs to have a financial plan in place and demonstrate she is committed to it. I would definitely say you will always need to keep your finances separate from her, never open a joint account, especially credit acct and you should possibly even consider a prenup agreement to protect what you are bringing into the marriage. As to paying her debt off for her, I'd be leary - sure it will save a lot of wasted interest payments, but if you are simply emotionally supportive while she works at it she can learn to appreciate the reward of her accomplishments.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

lonelyman said:


> i agree,
> 
> she went to see about debt consolidation, basically it would having her pay 1,000 a month for 5 years and losing all her credit cards, she has decided against it,
> 
> and while i agree the gambling contributed to the debt i didnt want that to become the topic of the thread, i want to know if im justified leaving because im feeling bad if i end up going that route,


You are justified in leaving her. It's ok to feel sad about it, but justified? Of course!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I have not read all of these replies but I am totally in agreement with ALL who say JUSTIFIED, oh MY YES !!! If you are a responsible reasonable spender and saver, someone who plans your big purchases, can live within your means, and you marry into THIS - your marriage will be hell, debt collectors calling, the $$ will never be enough, you will work yourself to the bone to be paying mere INTEREST! 

These are obvioulsy her life long habits , even putting aside the casinos, gambling, she is someone living so far OUT OF HER paycheck, it is simply NOT heathly , no man would want to put himself in that hole, love would have to be awfully blind to do so. 

Debt like that -would be one of my top 5 deal breakers personally.


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## Lucy15 (Jul 5, 2011)

I would defiantly not get married to ANYONE in debt. My husband owes money to a bank and more to his family. He will always be in debt because he gets what he wants. I only owe 3,000 on my car....but that's a little different. I don't get everything I want. I got my debt after he did and mine will be paid off before him. And it drives me crazy. We live with his family because of this debt...and that drives me REALLY CRAZY. They are the ones who taught him get what you want when you want. And BELIEVE me it's a never ending cycle.


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> i agree,
> 
> she went to see about debt consolidation, basically it would having her pay 1,000 a month for 5 years and losing all her credit cards, she has decided against it,


First off, her lack of honesty is disturbing. That has to stop.

Second, there are debt consolidation programs that allow you to keep ONE credit card open (shoot me a PM if you want specifics). Most of them drastically reduce interest rates on the cards, depending on the bank. I know as I helped my mom get onto one, although she elected to close them all.

If she is balking at five years to pay it off....have her look at the statement line item that shows how long it will take to pay off the balance using minimum payments. Quite an eye opener.

If she already understands this and is still unwilling to take the step, then that would be a deal breaker in my book. 

Marriages require diligence to maintain even when built on solid foundations. This doesn't sound very solid to me.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks for all of the replies, I guess what I'm trying to determine is what amount of debt would be considered "normal" for a person of say 35 years of age? Debt is something that scares me because I have been down the road of bad credit already and have learned my lesson, I now have rebuilt my credit and it is A+++++ and I'm not going to jeopordize my credit rating again,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lonelyman said:


> has hinted that i should help out more with the bills so she can put more money towards her debts, i dont think that is fair because then its kind of like im helping her pay off the debt


I would do this on *only* ONE condition: that she hand over all her credit cards, use ONLY a debit card, turn over all bill paying to you, and enter some sort of financial training course. Financial Peace University is a good starting point.

If she refuses to do this, do NOT marry her! She has a serious problem and needs help. Paying for anything as it is is merely helping her spend more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Normal debt is no more than $5000 to $10000, tops, excluding a mortgage. TOPS.


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> Thanks for all of the replies, I guess what I'm trying to determine is what amount of debt would be considered "normal" for a person of say 35 years of age? Debt is something that scares me because I have been down the road of bad credit already and have learned my lesson, I now have rebuilt my credit and it is A+++++ and I'm not going to jeopordize my credit rating again,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is a 'normal' debt amount is not nearly as important as her attitude in dealing with the outstanding debt and changing her mindset on credit.

You hear the term 'affair fog' quite often around here. Well, your fiance is likely in what I like to call the 'credit fog'.

I wholeheartedly agree she is a prime candidate to go through Ramsey's FPU.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

turnera said:


> Normal debt is no more than $5000 to $10000, tops, excluding a mortgage. TOPS.


what is normal anyways?


just like whats the normal amout of sex a marriage should have.

normal is a BS term.


the question is what is your boundry for this type of thing.
if she don't fit the bill (no pun intended) cast out for another one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Normal is what a person earning an average salary could pay back in no more than about 5 years.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Once you get married, her debts become *your* debts. Do you have a couple of hundred thousand dollars laying around to fix this? Because you DO realize that as soon as they become your debts she will expect you to fix them. 

You DO understand that, don't you?


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Once you get married, her debts become *your* debts. Do you have a couple of hundred thousand dollars laying around to fix this? Because you DO realize that as soon as they become your debts she will expect you to fix them.
> 
> You DO understand that, don't you?


Yes I understand that, and realize that, if you read my previous posts you would have seen I said I will not marry her under these circomstances, because of what you just said
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## roamingmind (Jul 20, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> Thanks for all of the replies, I guess what I'm trying to determine is what amount of debt would be considered "normal" for a person of say 35 years of age? Debt is something that scares me because I have been down the road of bad credit already and have learned my lesson, I now have rebuilt my credit and it is A+++++ and I'm not going to jeopordize my credit rating again,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Normal amount? Depends on how much she makes ans whether she can pay off debts without jepodizing a decent life style; on whether she is living within means. 

I think it's a matter of income-debt ration rather than the specific amount.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

I just don't know how to approach this, what questions should I ask her when we have "the talk"??? I know she will get all defensive
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Expect irrational responses to rational questions. Why? Because, in part, you represent a way out of her financial mess. You saying you're not comfortable playing that role means she would have to start that whole process of finding a rescuer all over again.

I'm not saying she doesn't have affection for you besides your wallet, btw. 

However, if she does not react with a certain amount of humility and reliance on your good judgment, the weight of the equation will lean much more towards your wallet than your heart.

Five years without using a credit card is easy! Especially when compared to losing you, right?


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks and I agree with you, I just wish I could remember all of this while we have "the talk" almost like I wish I could use que cards like I was giving a speech, so I can remember what to ask and say
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

The talk is very simple. "I can't sign on to this any more than I can sign on to any other chronic bottomless well. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm telling you what I can do." 

BTW I've had this talk with one my own kids who's involved with a woman with pretty breathtaking school loans and in a career that pays next to nothing. And my kid isn't an orthopedic surgeon who can write a 6 figure check for his GF's 'hobby' or crusade or calling or whatever.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Frankly, you just have to get in the mindset that you will NOT MARRY HER until this is resolved. 

In other words, you have to be willing to walk away. Are you?

Because, the way you're talking, you're scared to death of her getting mad at you.

Why is that? 

If you're willing to leave if she won't resolve it, who cares if she gets mad? You're leaving anyway if she gets mad and tries to guilt you.

Mind, I'm assuming these are not college tuition loans; is that correct?


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

No they are not school loans, I'm just nervous because I do care about her a lot, I will be hurt also, and don't want to hurt her, even though I know its for the best, it is hard to do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

lonely, yeah it'll be hard - I know all about avoiding confrontation. when I do confront it never goes as I plan it in my head, probably come across as passive, however just getting it out there and vocalizing it will start the conversation and as long as you are honest she will know you love her, but that to you her out of control finances is a dealbreaker that she needs to fix before you can continue with your commitment to her.

In the long run you will both be better off. Right now I am so tired of all the games of dishonesty going on in the world... I understand sometimes things are delicate and sensitive, but I'm finding myself wondering why everybody I know, who knew what was happening in my marriage and what my W was doing behind my back, (for instance) have been so unwilling to speak up, why is everybody so afraid to tell of the truth?? Can't these fully grown adults see that it is always the only solution to every problem yet?

So just tell her how much you love her and want to see her free of her problem, and she is the only one that can dig herself out with guidance and emotional support from you.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Isn't this the third or fourth time you've asked the same question about the same situation? If you want out, just call it done and get out. You don't need to justify it to anyone, you don't need anyone else's approval... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Yes I have asked a few times, my apologies, just looking for more opinions, and I appreciate them all, I know its my decision I'm just having a hard time deciding what to do, and in the back of my mind I feel like I might regret the decision sometime in the future,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Go to counseling and start getting help for being codependent. That way, you'll stop being afraid of making her mad at you.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

I am not afraid of her being mad at me, I am afraid to make the wrong decision, and end up regretting it later
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes you are. You're afraid that if you stand up to her, she will leave you. You can set up a minimum and then let her decide. To do anything else would be to cave in and pay off her bills for her. And trust me, the bills would just keep on coming, if she doesn't get help. If she is unwilling to cut up her credit cards, she CANNOT control her spending. 

I went through the same thing a couple years ago with my husband, when I discovered he had nearly $100,000 in credit card debt. Took him to CCC, they told him to file bankruptcy, cut up his cards. He refused. So I took over his bills and have been trying to get them down. 

PLEASE don't make the mistake I did.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

This is financial suicide for you my friend. That much CC means she has a bad spending problem. Time to make some choices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Thank you, turnera ... my thoughts exactly. You could get 5,000 opinions, but the bottom line is, you are dreading "the talk." You said your fiance is unresponsive and ignores you when you try to bring up the subject of her debt. Well, the worst thing she can do is turn into a shrieking harridan and go ballistic on you.

Okay, worst case scenario ... she goes bonkers and you walk away without having her debt to deal with.

I can understand wanting to vent, get opinions, and express your view, but you're afraid someone is going to get hurt. Yes, someone is going to get hurt. But your fiance didn't seem to factor your feelings of hurt, disappointment, or confusion into her equation when she went credit card crazy, did she?

Life is full of sh** we really dread doing, but we get through it and life goes on. You have every right to sit her down and tell her exactly what you've told us here. If she gets hurt, cries, screams, etc., you have the right to stand firm and tell her what you will accept and what you will not accept.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

thanks for all the replies,

we just had a bit of a talk,

actual consumer debt is 65,000

basically i was trying to get her to understand that a debt consolidation would be the best option, she didnt agree with me and gave me these reasons,

her mortgage is up for renewal next year, she fears that if she does debt consolidation the bank will not renew her mortgage next year due to poor credit, and she will lose the house anyway,

she does not want to lose her credit cards,

i explained very clearly that losing her credit cards would be a good thing, and the debt consolidation would be a good thing because she would be paying 500 a month *LESS* per month doing the consolidation than she would be if she tries to pay off the debt on her own, she said no because she wants her credit cards for "emergencies" and because if she doesnt have credit cards we can not have any fun or travel on trips for 5+ years

i tried to explain if she tries to pay off the credit on her own she will be paying alot more per month and it will take alot longer, and we could not have any "fun" anyway because she would be paying more per month, she didnt seem to understand that or want to believe it,

the conversation ended with her crying and saying "my biggest fear is you will leave and walk out the door", i didnt really have an answer for that because im feeling that might be true


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Her credit score is damaged by having this out of control spending and far too many open credit cards comparing the debt to income ratio expectations.

She really is in for a rude awakening regarding her mortgage.

And her comment regarding credit cards and "no fun" for five years?

Seriously? This woman has no clue about financials.

And if you take on her debts, you are out of your gourd!

BTW, nice touch the tears and the tug at your heartstrings. She's a real pro.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

I think this boils down to a case of the two of you having very different values. And I mean that as fundamentally as your feelings on religion, children, what constitutes fidelity....any of those basic things.

You clearly believe in living within your means, taking on reasonable debt when needed (cars, mortgage, etc) and saving for what you want. You've made a conscious decision to learn as much as you can about your personal financial situation and how you can improve/optimize it from your mistakes.

If you boil down what she says, she's exactly the opposite:



> she said no because she wants her credit cards for "emergencies" and because if she doesnt have credit cards we can not have any fun or travel on trips for 5+ years


She apparently believes that fun and travel constitute the kind of "emergencies" that require going into high-interest debt. She has deliberately avoided any knowledge about her credit score, how it works, etc. because the news is probably not going to be good...

This isn't a matter of you ending up with her debt, or you ending up supporting your household while she shops til she drops and runs up debt and defaults like crazy on it for the two of you....this is a matter of the two of you having opposite values on an extremely critical part of your relationship. It might as well be a case of one of you being a fundamentalist polygamist and the other one being a Wiccan. Can you over come it? Sure, but you're starting out waaaay behind the 8-ball on it.

I think rather than thinking about the dollars and cents of it all, you might want to take a look at how your values and your priorities match up overall. That might help make a decision clearer.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hire a CPA to go over her bills and put out a spreadsheet on how much money in INTEREST she is paying each month, and how much INTEREST she will be paying over the next 20 years if she doesn't cut up her cards now. It is mind boggling. We're spending thousands of dollars EACH MONTH just in the interest on his bills.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So, now that she gave you the tearfest, are you backing down? That's what she intended.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

She said now she will do anything I want her to do, she will do the debt consolidation if I want her to, or she will go bankrupt if I want her to,

Basically she wants me to make the decision for her, I think because she fears I will leave,

I told her that I will not make that decision because I don't feel like I have the right to make that decision for her,

Where do I go from here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

lonelyman said:


> She said now she will do anything I want her to do, she will do the debt consolidation if I want her to, or she will go bankrupt if I want her to,
> 
> Basically she wants me to make the decision for her, I think because she fears I will leave,
> 
> ...


Make the decision for her. Then monitor her for an extended period of time. Base this monitoring period on the amount of time it takes for her to dig out of the hole as specified by the debt professionals you consult.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Use your money for THIS: find her an outstanding financial counselor, hire him/her, and take her, along with her box of stuff, to see that person. Put it all in the hands of that person.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

However if you step in too much, be prepared for every unpleasant consequence and fallout from the decision to be YOUR fault. Can't go out to dinner? Well, if you'd let her keep her credit cards... No vacation? Well, if she didn't have this stupid payment...

If her response to this problem is to deny accountability and position herself for some future blameshifting once she's backed into a corner, the best option you have is probably turnera's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I agree, a financial counselor and go from there. Either bankruptcy or consolidation. Find out long term costs sms penalties for any options.

It is Great that she will chose you over the debt and lies. That is the best thing that could have happened. There is at least hope for you guys. 

I'm really glad for you that this is the outcome. Make a smart decision from here.

Best of luck and God bless
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> she does not want to lose her credit cards


Okay so what does she love more YOU or the cc's. It's a dealbreaker. Make her choose.


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## roamingmind (Jul 20, 2011)

My 2 cents here--between Debt Settlement and bankruptcy, she probably better off to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy to have a clean wipe. A bankruptcy lawyer should be able to help her save the house ( depending on filing under federal laws or state laws). Either one, there will be public record on her credit report and her credit score is going down but probably won't too much given the debt she has now. 

The bankruptcy will make it hard for her to get new credit cards; she eventually will but the credit line will be low. It wipes out the debt entirely except for student loan, overdue tax less than three-year old...etc. Once she contacts a lawyer, she can stop making payments and start saving. 

Debt settelment might involve tax issues -- the part of debt waived somehow will be considered income thus taxable. Its impact is not too much different than bankruptcy but she still need to pay. 

There is a lot of information on the internet about bankruptcy. Have her educate herself, and make the choice. Once she sees how much weight be lift off shoulder without the debt hanging over her head, I am sure she will be for it.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks for all of the replies, 

"Roamingmind", I will talk to her more today about the bankruptcy route, she seems to think she will automatically lose her house and her car, and I kind of thought so too, 

I guess it might be worthwhile to see a bankruptcy lawyer as you suggested, the person she talked to was just a debt consolidation person,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

lonelyman said:


> Thanks for all of the replies,
> 
> "Roamingmind", I will talk to her more today about the bankruptcy route, she seems to think she will automatically lose her house and her car, and I kind of thought so too,
> 
> ...



Don't go the bankruptcy route unless you have exhausted ALL other choices.

With bankruptcy legally she will have to answer 'yes' to the 'have you ever filed for bankruptcy?' question on all sorts of applications *forever*, regardless of her credit standing at the time....which can and probably will impact all sorts of rates...life insurance premiums, mortgage rates, etc.

With debt counseling/consolidation that is not the case once any negatives fall off her credit report.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Any chance of her rolling the debt into her mortgage loan in a refi?

And spread it over 30 years?

Or is she one of these adjustable loans with a balloon coming soon?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm still in the run for the hills camp while you still can. you will be sorry when this just keeps happening time and time again.

good luck in what ever you decide.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I'm still in the run for the hills camp while you still can. you will be sorry when this just keeps happening time and time again.
> 
> good luck in what ever you decide.


Was thinking the same thing. You beat me to it.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Was thinking the same thing. You beat me to it.


:iagree: :iagree:

Nothing she seems to have said makes it sound like this is all a mistake she made getting in over her head. It sounds like a lifestyle pattern. It doesn't sound like she want to suck it up and get out of debt, it sounds like she wants to pacify you. If that's the case, she'll spend again as soon as she's got the means--whether she's got the cash or not.

It comes down to this: you're either going to always get to be her daddy and make her pay her bills, be her sugar daddy and pay her bills or else keep going in the in between you are now where neither of you really ever do anything about any of it.


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## Corkey88 (Sep 16, 2010)

Yes it is a good enough reason to end things and no I wouldn't marry this girl/.


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## roamingmind (Jul 20, 2011)

Sennik said:


> Don't go the bankruptcy route unless you have exhausted ALL other choices.
> 
> With bankruptcy legally she will have to answer 'yes' to the 'have you ever filed for bankruptcy?' question on all sorts of applications *forever*, regardless of her credit standing at the time....which can and probably will impact all sorts of rates...life insurance premiums, mortgage rates, etc.
> 
> With debt counseling/consolidation that is not the case once any negatives fall off her credit report.


True. Bankruptcy should be the last resort. 

However, this depends on the individual case. There are three options here: debt settlement, debt repayment (debt consolidation), and bankruptcy 

*Debt settlement * is to hire an attorney to act on her behalf to contact creditors and negotiate settlements directly with the creditors. The purpose is to negotiate the entire debt amount at a percentage of the dollar. It usually can be negotiated down to $.35-.70 on the dollar. In OP's case (let's take the average, say $.50 on the dollar), the fiancee will still owe $32500. Negotiating settlements requires the payment of a lump sum of money, a payment over two or three installments in a relatively short amount of time (30-45 days). if she decides the installment is $2000, she needs to pay $4000-6000 at once. 
Also, keep in mind, not all creditors are willing to negotiate. If you are looking to pay off over 5years. Chances are the creditors will not agree to reduce its principal and intereset rate. Also, if all creditors agree but one doesn't agree to the settlement, then the settlement plan will not work. 
Also, keep in mind, the portion of debt waived is *TAXABLE* -- that is, say she is able to reduce the debt to half, she will be taxed on $32500-- now, that's a lot of tax-- and she MUST include that amount in the tax return. 

*Debt Repayment a.k.a. Debt Consolidation (what fiancee is considering) * is to contact a credit counseling agency that negotiates lower interest rates and administers a "debt repayment plan" or "DRP." But the tricky part here is -- yes, she makes less payment each month, *but the debt is still there. It can take forever to pay it off. *I am sure this is not the OP wants. Another important aspect is -- it doesn't solve the root of the problem --- the fiancee's spending habit. *Plus, part of the payment she makes each month is going to the agency instead of the creditors.* 

*Bankruptcy*-- Usually it wipes all of the debt, unless it's student loan, overdue tax older than three years. Debt that is discharged in bankruptcy are NOT taxable income. The upfront fee is the attorney fees ( around $2000, depending on your state) ; most bankruptcy attorneys will offer first councelling meeting for free. Depending on where she lives, it usually takes 3-6 months from the filing date ( when the attorney submit all the paperwork to the court) to the discharge of the debt. 
In bankruptcy, she can reaffirm certain debts -- say the mortage and the car loan. 

Credit wise--- with the amount of debt she owes, if she has been late on payments , her credit score is probably already very low. Yes, the bankruptcy is on the credit report for 10 years for chapter 7 and 7 year for Chapter 13. True, it's going to be difficult to get credit cards and loans at a good rate -- she needs to work on her credit by being fiancially responsible.

Most people will be able to get car loan as soon as a year from the filing date; the interest will be high, but if she makes payment on time, it will build up the credit score very soon. She can get secured credit cards, which will prevent her spending more than what she has and the same time build her credit as well. Two years after bankruptcy, she will be qualified for most mortage at a reasonable rate. Above all, during the process, she is debt free and she has to be fianacially responsible. 

If the OP still procede to marry her, just keep in mind , he has to seperate his accounts from hers so that one of them has good credit when they need apply for loans. 

Please talk to severl attorneys, agents, make sure to ask the right questions, and weigh the pros and cons and make a choice that best suits her interest and yours. 

Best luck.


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

roamingmind said:


> True. Bankruptcy should be the last resort.
> 
> However, this depends on the individual case. There are three options here: debt settlement, debt repayment (debt consolidation), and bankruptcy
> 
> ...


Excellent summation of the options!

All I can tell you from my experience is that we used a credit counseling service. Our overall payment did not go down.... however our payoff time frame went from 30+ years to 4(YMMV). We only paid $30 a month to the service too, of our $1300 plus payment. Well worth it. Our score is beginning to improve by leaps and bounds as the negatives are starting to fall off.

Either way it looks like he is facing an uphill battle. Whatever method is employed to fill in the hole (assuming he stays the course with her), it looks like she is of the mindset to keep digging.

To the OP...should you not run for the hills good luck, I think you're going to need it.


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

roamingmind said:


> Yes, the bankruptcy is on the credit report for 10 years for chapter 7 and 7 year for Chapter 13. True, it's going to be difficult to get credit cards and loans at a good rate -- she needs to work on her credit by being fiancially responsible.


Correct regarding the credit reporting.

However one point that is often overlooked... both chapter 7 and 13 are also in the court system for approximately 20 years so if the bankruptcy route is taken and you ever answer no to the bankruptcy question then you open yourself up to potential fraud charges. Not terribly likely, but the threat is there.

I do know some underwriters that check court records too.

I wouldn't want that monkey on my back.

That's also a long time to potentially eat increased premiums for answering honestly.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

i just wanted to thank everybody for all of the replies and an extra thanks to "roamingmind" for taking the time to explain all of the options in detail....

she has made appointments to see a bankruptcy lawyer and meet with another debt consolidation agent this week....i guess we will see the options from there....

i have basically told her we can not get married under these conditions because i dont want this debt becoming my debt....she took it well and understood my position....

"running for the hills" as you guys put it is still an option that i am considering....we will still remain good friends either way....i love her very much regardless of what happens....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad to hear it. Honesty is always the answer.


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## kevint (Mar 14, 2009)

lonelyman said:


> i am engaged and have just recently found out about my fiances debt, i have been living with her for about a year now,
> 
> she is very secretive about it but im estimating her debt at about 60,000 dollars, that i know of,
> 
> ...


I think that it's very sad when people base how happy they can be and how happy they are based on money and materialistic things.Are you really willing to walk away from the woman you love because she has some debt?I think you should really ask yourself how you really feel about this woman.There are times that my wife and I broke as hell but you wouldn't know it because we're happy.Money should not be the base for which any relationship or marriage is foundated on.She was obviously doing just fine with her debt before you because the house is hers and the car she drives is hers.She was taking care of all this stuff before you came along.When you get married your debt is hers and hers yours.I think you are being very selfish and childish.Maybe she's being secretive about because she sees that you are a very materialistic person thinking that marriage and love revolve around how much or how less debt you have.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

kevint said:


> I think that it's very sad when people base how happy they can be and how happy they are based on money and materialistic things.Are you really willing to walk away from the woman you love because she has some debt?I think you should really ask yourself how you really feel about this woman.... .Money should not be the base for which any relationship or marriage is foundated on.She was obviously doing just fine with her debt before you because the house is hers and the car she drives is hers.She was taking care of all this stuff before you came along..


Kevint - read through some of the posts on this topic. This is not just about money. If I remember correctly, there were some trust issues about what debt was/was not disclosed, gambling issues, "She was obviously doing just fine with her debt before you because the house is hers and the car she drives is hers." (Not really - some bankruptcy issues, etc.

It's a bit irresponsible for you to post without having a clearer idea of all that's happening (and stated in earlier posts). Lonelyman seems to have been very straightforward about his feelings for her but has a very real concern that if the marriage starts off with many unresolved financial/debt issues, chances are, things will only get worse. He's doing the right thing taking it one step at a time. 

It's great that you and yours are so happy with or without money. ANd, I think it's safe to say that from what Lonelyman has said, it's not all about the money for him either.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

kevint said:


> She was obviously doing just fine with her debt before you because the house is hers and the car she drives is hers.She was taking care of all this stuff before you came along.


no she was not doing fine before i came along,

she bought the house with her ex-husband, she can not afford the house and her debt by herself, after he left is when her debt started because of this fact (and some wreckless spending on her part),

i have not cost her one penny since we met, and i have helped her out with household bills, i feel like you are trying to blame her debt on me and that is simply not the case....at all


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

jayde said:


> Kevint - read through some of the posts on this topic. This is not just about money. If I remember correctly, there were some trust issues about what debt was/was not disclosed, gambling issues, "She was obviously doing just fine with her debt before you because the house is hers and the car she drives is hers." (Not really - some bankruptcy issues, etc.
> 
> It's a bit irresponsible for you to post without having a clearer idea of all that's happening (and stated in earlier posts). Lonelyman seems to have been very straightforward about his feelings for her but has a very real concern that if the marriage starts off with many unresolved financial/debt issues, chances are, things will only get worse. He's doing the right thing taking it one step at a time.
> 
> It's great that you and yours are so happy with or without money. ANd, I think it's safe to say that from what Lonelyman has said, it's not all about the money for him either.


thank you, and you are correct its not all about the money, there are other issues


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