# on cheating



## NobodySpecial

I started this in another, now closed, thread. But I really want to say this. I am sick to death of the cheat fear that is spread on this board.

So there are lots of folks on TAM who won't like what I am going to say. I generally don't post on the infidelity rants. There are so many! My husband blew his nose. HE'S CHEATING! My wife has underwear. SHE'S CHEATING! It is kinda nuts.

But here is my opinion. Cheating is not an isolated thing. It's root cause is not that a person hangs out with a member of the opposite sex. I can hang out with members of the opposite sex all day long, and do, with no infidelity risk.

People like to think cheating occurs in a box outside the context of the rest of the marriage. It doesn't. Cheating occurs because one or both of the parties, usually both, are not attending to the marriage. Affair fog is available because reality is not a happy place. 

You see on TAM all the time, how do I get my wife/husband to do/be/act/feel differently than they do. How do I get my spouse to understand MY love language. You rarely see people advise things like, you use the love language information to see and hear when they are talking love to your in THEIR natural language. You rarely hear advise about how to recall what you fell in love with in the first place and reconnect with that. How to support, accept and generate feelings of caring and safety in your partner instead of fear, doubt and insecurity.

And if you married an ahole. Get out. What the hell are you protecting fidelity for anyway?


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## ConanHub

Question? Not saying you're wrong, but I don't agree with everything you say about cheating, but you also have a non standard view of relationships and marriage.

To those that have been burned, they are many red flags and often, unfortunately, they are right.

You are correct that stronger marriages promote less fear. There are many examples of marriages that didn't get that care or attention until after an affair. It is sad.

There are also some pretty batty people who admit they cheated on very engaged and caring spouses just to get some "cake" on the side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I agree that cheating is almost always a symptom of a problem and not an isolated event. 
I also think that when, for example, a husband posts that his wife is distant and unloving towards him, the responses that she must be cheating and to track her like a PI is missing the _why _she is feeling that way and what he can do to make her feel loved again. 
It's guilty until proven innocent and not productive.


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## Deejo

The site tends to go through cycles.

We're in one now.

There are those who come here for support and healing,and to learn and there are those who come here to commiserate. 

The commiseration crowd has been growing, and becoming more and more 'out there' with their responses to even pedestrian posts.

Infidelity has always been addressed or dealt with harshly here. We really can't change how people feel about it.

But ... we can try to change how they post about it.

The site goes through cycles, and then the site undergoes a culling.

One always follows the other, like the seasons.

It's the generally level folks to whom the cycle becomes clear. There have been an array of varied posts similar to yours wondering WTF is with some posters.


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> Question? Not saying you're wrong, but I don't agree with everything you say about cheating, but you also have a non standard view of relationships and marriage.
> 
> To those that have been burned, they are many red flags and often, unfortunately, they are right.
> 
> You are correct that stronger marriages promote less fear. There are many examples of marriages that didn't get that care or attention until after an affair. It is sad.
> 
> There are also some pretty batty people who admit they cheated on very engaged and caring spouses just to get some "cake" on the side.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You said question, then never asked one! 

For the record, I did not say that it was the betrayed spouse who was failing to care for the marriage.

I think that, in general, a lot of people put the focus on the wrong things and then get what they focus on.


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## frankman

Mine was acting differently.

She ended up cheating.

Sick of me yet?


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> You said question, then never asked one!
> 
> For the record, I did not say that it was the betrayed spouse who was failing to care for the marriage.
> 
> I think that, in general, a lot of people put the focus on the wrong things and then get what they focus on.


I see that happen too. I was actually wondering if you had a more specific question. I also answered assuming you were making a statement.

BTW. If you put on underwear today you better come clean to your H that you're cheating. LOL! &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

frankman said:


> Mine was acting differently.
> 
> She ended up cheating.
> 
> Sick of me yet?


I was actually going to bring up your thread but there are others as well. I get her point but there are far too many times when the "paranoid" people are right to discount them out of hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

frankman said:


> Mine was acting differently.
> 
> She ended up cheating.
> 
> Sick of me yet?


Nope.  You were actually a breath of fresh air. It kinda sounds like you just married a heartless B and did not know it.

The thing that gets me is the copious number of posters who deal so heavily in cheat prevention mode that they can never move into an actually useful cheat prevention strategy. True love.


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> I was actually going to bring up your thread but there are others as well. I get her point but there are far too many times when the "paranoid" people are right to discount them out of hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you mean by discount them? My point is not that cheating does not happen. That's clearly just stupid. The point is that the actions that people take, their very mindset, is often fuel to the cheating fire rather than the preventative that they think it is.


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> What do you mean by discount them? My point is not that cheating does not happen. That's clearly just stupid. The point is that the actions that people take, their very mindset, is often fuel to the cheating fire rather than the preventative that they think it is.


It depends on the scenario but I would agree in many instances. Keep promoting the viewpoint. Might help strengthened a marriage on the brink or help a marriage come back from infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> .
> 
> And if you married an ahole. Get out. What the hell are you protecting fidelity for anyway?


Some of us would like to know sooner rather than later about the infidelity so that we CAN get out of it.

My exBIL carried on a 6 year affair with his second wife. He sued the household budget (household including my sister and their 3 daughters) to pay for his mistress's education. He then hired her to be his assistant. Paid her more than market rate and the paid himself less than market rate to cheat his family.

the mistress even baby sat a few times. Well if my exBIL was so unhappy in the marriage why didn't he choose to leave the marriage sooner?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I agree with NobodySpecial. If you can't trust your partner not to cheat, why stay with them.

Also, for me cheating is NOT the worst thing someone can do. Its bad, but not an "end of the world" or even "end of the marriage" activity. I'd much rather hear that my wife had an affair than that she had developed a drug habit, was gambling away our life savings etc.


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## tacoma

I've been here a long time and I almost always treat infidelity harshly.

I also push a bit of paranoia towards a potential BS when they seem to be in denial, I think this is healthy.

BUT....

The problem here is many do these things without any single objective reason to do so.
i've seen posters here start ranting about an OP's SO cheating on them in threads that had nothing to do with cheating and no mentioned signs of any rational red flags..

It's almost a pandemic mania at times in the domino effect it seems to have on posters.

It's a shame, harmful to the forum, harmful to those asking for help, and drives most new sane posters away.


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## Jellybeans

NobodySpecial said:


> And if you married an ahole. Get out. What the hell are you protecting fidelity for anyway?





NextTimeAround said:


> Some of us would like to know sooner rather than later about the infidelity so that we CAN get out of it.


I think NobodySpecial meant it in the sense where someone's spouse is a jerk/a-hole to them/abusive, etc AND then cheated and they still choose to stay. Or was always a jerk and cheating. It's the same logic many apply to the abusive spouse threads - there is a particular poster here who a gajillion threads on how her husband is emotionally abusive/abusive to her and she still stays and tries to protect the marriage. Same thought process. What is she protecting? He doesn't love her.


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## frankman

>I was actually going to bring up your thread but there are others as well. I get her point but there are far too many times when the "paranoid" people are right to discount them out of hand.<

Some yes. I don't think too many paranoid people were on my thread.
Wieghtlifter was very level headed and helped me in ways I can never repay. Ive seen him predict outcomes and quote percentages.
Blossom was the same
Gus was the same.
Tom was the same
Sorry to those I forget.
The over the top people on my thread were mostly early ones saying I am some kind of dictator who hated his wife.

Unfortunately, by the time a man is on the internet and posting here, his odds are pretty bad of it not being cheating. Don't forget I said early on that I didn't think my wife would cheat. She was in the EA stage when I said that. Sigh.

Nobody

oddly. You say heartless, yet so far, whenever I have asked for more daughter time, my wife has agreed. I think it stems from the fact she absolutely adored her father.

With the developments of the past few days, I am simply accepting my defective wife got played by a player. She is not innocent but neither is Mikey. Sorry they were right on this board before I considered it.

Yea. I would still love to know what the **** went through her mind but that is the extent of it. Yea I still wonder why and was he bigger blah blah but that fades by the day. Mind movies are gone. I dont miss her. It doesn't hurt she cut away at my love for her from her side while I was trying to detach. 

In short. Im pretty good. Still. They were right. Sorry.


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## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> Some of us would like to know sooner rather than later about the infidelity so that we CAN get out of it.


So.... marriage sucks is not good enough? Why wait for infidelity? I mean, if you know it is broken, fix it. If it does not feel like safe, wonderful, true love, then what is it? Certainly not cheat proof. 



> My exBIL carried on a 6 year affair with his second wife. He sued the household budget (household including my sister and their 3 daughters) to pay for his mistress's education. He then hired her to be his assistant. Paid her more than market rate and the paid himself less than market rate to cheat his family.
> 
> the mistress even baby sat a few times. Well if my exBIL was so unhappy in the marriage why didn't he choose to leave the marriage sooner?


Here is another question. Why didn't your sister. (I have no idea why he didn't. Because he is a douche with no character? Money?) But why do people just STAY in useless marriages. You want to tell me that she did not know that she was not cherished? You want to tell me that she did not know that her efforts to fix things were not working?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

frankman said:


> Unfortunately, by the time a man is on the internet and posting here, his odds are pretty bad of it not being cheating. Don't forget I said early on that I didn't think my wife would cheat. She was in the EA stage when I said that. Sigh.


I think in a lot of cases there were signs the relationship was lacking before things got bad enough to get to the cheating stage. It's too bad more people don't come for advice before that point but when people do, scaring them with "she's a cheating wh*re, file for divorce right now!!!" is not going to fix anything. It takes the focus off repairing the relationship and on to just being obsessed with signs of cheating.


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## frankman

richardsharpe said:


> Also, for me cheating is NOT the worst thing someone can do. Its bad, but not an "end of the world" or even "end of the marriage" activity. I'd much rather hear that my wife had an affair than that she had developed a drug habit, was gambling away our life savings etc.


This to me is like asking, "Would you rather be burned alive, flayed or attend a Justin Bieber concert" All are horrible awful ways to die.

Has your wife cheated that you know of?


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## NextTimeAround

Jellybeans said:


> I think NobodySpecial meant it in the sense where someone's spouse is a jerk/a-hole to them/abusive, etc AND then cheated and they still choose to stay. Or was always a jerk and cheating. It's the same logic many apply to the abusive spouse threads - there is a particular poster here who a gajillion threads on how her husband is emotionally abusive/abusive to her and she still stays and tries to protect the marriage. Same thought process. What is she protecting? He doesn't love her.


Maybe Nobody Special should elucidate what he is trying to express.


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## Jellybeans

frankman said:


> This to me is like asking, "Would you rather be burned alive, flayed or attend a Justin Bieber concert" All are horrible awful ways to die.


I will take "Burned alive for $500," Alex.

Death by Justin Beiber concert is the last way I ever want to go. 

:rofl:


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## richardsharpe

Maybe when we were dating. More of a broke up with me, and didn't tell me, and probably slept with another guy sort of situation. I have no reason to think she has cheated since we have been married. Its possible, she has lots of opportunity (as do I) but I don't really care THAT much. 






frankman said:


> This to me is like asking, "Would you rather be burned alive, flayed or attend a Justin Bieber concert" All are horrible awful ways to die.
> 
> Has your wife cheated that you know of?


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## frankman

richardsharpe said:


> Maybe when we were dating. More of a broke up with me, and didn't tell me, and probably slept with another guy sort of situation. I have no reason to think she has cheated since we have been married. Its possible, she has lots of opportunity (as do I) but I don't really care THAT much.


You do realize not caring that much that she cheated is not average?


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## GusPolinski

richardsharpe said:


> Maybe when we were dating. More of a broke up with me, and didn't tell me, and probably slept with another guy sort of situation. I have no reason to think she has cheated since we have been married. Its possible, she has lots of opportunity (as do I) but I don't really care THAT much.


Richard, respectfully...

...have you had your testosterone levels checked recently?


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## Jung_admirer

“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” 
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am no longer upset you had an affair, I've forgiven this betrayal. I'm upset that from now on I can't trust you."
-Jung_Admirer


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## Marduk

Remarkably simplistic view, OP.

I've been cheated on twice. Once was a PA, once was an EA. Two different women. 

It ****ing stings. It's hard not to reflect that pain when you see the potential of it happening to others. Please realize that often what people mean by throwing red flags for cheating with slim to none evidence are really attempts by those people to express their pain and try to limit it in others.

Regarding cheating itself, it's not so simple.

Some people cheat and it has nothing to do with their partner at all. Perhaps they're just not monogamous by nature, perhaps they were given an opportunity by a tempting partner, perhaps they were looking for external validation. In these cases, only the subtlest of evidence exists, and quite often the spouse is blindsided by the whole thing.

Some people cheat to escape or end their relationship. In this case, then yes, the partner plays a hand. But that hand may be a lot weaker than you think, and it's like playing poker with multiple decks -- it becomes an information discovery and management game.

Some people cheat because of boredom. Yes, it happens. What then? You can say this is the spouse's fault, but really is it a spouse's job to keep each other entertained? Or does the bored spouse share accountability to spice things up?

And there are many variables for what an affair is. It can include sex, or it might not. It may include emotion, or it might not. It can be purely communication based -- texting, email, facebook, webcams... all kinds of things. Is this an affair? To some, yes. To some, no.

At the end of the day they all share one thing in common though: deciet. 

And from a guy that's been there a couple times now, _that_ is what stings the most, and is the hardest to recover from.


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## NobodySpecial

Jellybeans said:


> I think NobodySpecial meant it in the sense where someone's spouse is a jerk/a-hole to them/abusive, etc AND then cheated and they still choose to stay. Or was always a jerk and cheating. It's the same logic many apply to the abusive spouse threads - there is a particular poster here who a gajillion threads on how her husband is emotionally abusive/abusive to her and she still stays and tries to protect the marriage. Same thought process. What is she protecting? He doesn't love her.


Yes. But more than that. To those who are very cheat defensive often have a boundary setting mindset rather than a love growth mindset. That is my main point. 

LOOOOOONG before anyone even THINKS of cheating, is the couple asking themselves and talking about


Do I feel cherished?
Am I accepting everything I possibly can about the person I have chosen _exactly they way they are just like I did when we first met_.
Do I deal effectively with resentment starting activities and events? Can I deal with them effectively MYSELF. Do I set effective limits when I can't.
Do I communicate in kind, loving, non hurtful ways.
Do I understand and listen in kind, loving and non hurtful ways.
Do I try to HEAR his or her love in his or her native love language.
Do I try to give him or her love in his or her native love language when I can.

Etcetera and so forth.

I think a lot of people get married and then coast.


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## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe Nobody Special should elucidate what he is trying to express.


He is actually a she, btw.


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## Mr.Fisty

Over time, some people take their spouse for granted, believing that they will always be there. There are a few couples I know that have a marriage check-up once a month or however they feel like scheduling it. I remember their vow being as long as both are contented and fulfilled, will they stay in the marriage. They never made vows of forever, so they constantly work on the relationship.

A majority of people go into marriage believing that the love will last forever and does not fade over time. The reason why most choose to marry was because of how the relationship operated during dating. True, you cannot operate that way, but you have to incorporate as much as you can.

Again, some people are not capable of this due to mental disorders. Some can learn as they go, but most are clueless on how to make one last. Nothing is guaranteed, but you can increase the odds of success by developing relationship skills.


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## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> * To those who are very cheat defensive often have a boundary setting mindset rather than a love growth mindset. *


Totally agree. Too much focus on boundaries and consequences and not enough on seeking to understand and being understood.

It takes time to nurture a marriage, to listen without judgment, to comfort the other in their weakness. Much easier to blame and criticize, while remaining, of course, blameless oneself.


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## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Some people cheat and it has nothing to do with their partner at all. Perhaps they're just not monogamous by nature,


This is BS. I am non-monogamous today. That does not make me a liar, deceitful. It does not excuse lack of character and the integrity to treat another human being well.


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## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> This is BS. I am non-monogamous today. That does not make me a liar, deceitful. It does not excuse lack of character and the integrity to treat another human being well.


Yes, but you practice _ethical_ non-monogamy, wherein all parties give informed consent w/ respect to any and all sexual and/or non-sexual amorous contact w/ other partners... correct?

IOW, I don't think that marduk was saying that all it necessarily follows that _all_ non-monogamy is deceitful. But for those who have pledged to commit to maintaining a monogamous relationship w/ their spouses to indulge in relationships w/ others? That's obviously pretty deceitful.


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## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Yes, but you practice _ethical_ non-monogamy, wherein all parties give informed consent w/ respect to any and all sexual and/or non-sexual amorous contact w/ other partners... correct?
> 
> IOW, I don't think that marduk was saying that all it necessarily follows that _all_ non-monogamy is deceitful. But for those who have pledged to commit to maintaining a monogamous relationship w/ their spouses to indulge in relationships w/ others? That's obviously pretty deceitful.


What he was saying is that being non monogamous by nature is a reason for cheating. It may be an excuse. But the reason is being a lying liar.


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## Jung_admirer

marduk said:


> ...
> Regarding cheating itself, it's not so simple.
> 
> Some people cheat and it has nothing to do with their partner at all. Perhaps they're just not monogamous by nature, perhaps they were given an opportunity by a tempting partner, *perhaps they were looking for external validation. In these cases, only the subtlest of evidence exists, and quite often the spouse is blindsided by the whole thing.*
> 
> Some people cheat to escape or end their relationship. In this case, then yes, the partner plays a hand. But that hand may be a lot weaker than you think, and it's like playing poker with multiple decks -- it becomes an information discovery and management game.
> ...
> Some people cheat because of boredom. Yes, it happens. What then? You can say this is the spouse's fault, but really is it a spouse's job to keep each other entertained? Or does the bored spouse share accountability to spice things up?


Midlife hits a lot of people hard ... What have done with my life? Why do I fear death so profoundly? *What do I stand for?* This is deeply personal and has nothing to do with the partner or the marriage. Some people have EA/PA for self-validation during MLC. The feeling of powerlessness this evokes penetrates the BS's soul. It is completely beyond your understanding until you experience it .. and I hope you never do.

The MLC song


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## alphaomega

I'm in the "sit back and watch " cycle right now. 

Even for the betrayed, we can say and opinionate all we want. But everyone needs to come up with Thier own plan in Thier head once they reach that point.


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## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I started this in another, now closed, thread. But I really want to say this. I am sick to death of the cheat fear that is spread on this board.
> 
> So there are lots of folks on TAM who won't like what I am going to say. I generally don't post on the infidelity rants. There are so many! My husband blew his nose. HE'S CHEATING! My wife has underwear. SHE'S CHEATING! It is kinda nuts.
> 
> But here is my opinion*. Cheating is not an isolated thing. *It's root cause is not that a person hangs out with a member of the opposite sex. I can hang out with members of the opposite sex all day long, and do, with no infidelity risk.
> 
> People like to think cheating occurs in a box outside the context of the rest of the marriage. It doesn't. Cheating occurs because one or both of the parties, usually both, are not attending to the marriage. Affair fog is available because reality is not a happy place.
> 
> You see on TAM all the time, how do I get my wife/husband to do/be/act/feel differently than they do. How do I get my spouse to understand MY love language. You rarely see people advise things like, you use the love language information to see and hear when they are talking love to your in THEIR natural language. You rarely hear advise about how to recall what you fell in love with in the first place and reconnect with that. How to support, accept and generate feelings of caring and safety in your partner instead of fear, doubt and insecurity.
> 
> And if you married an ahole. Get out. What the hell are you protecting fidelity for anyway?


Really..... So all those drunken girls night out and boys night out where booze and temptation collide and some people cave and some don't are irrelevant to your mind. Only way someone cheats is if they are in a bad marriage and not possible that a person has a character flaw that gives them no moral compass on keeping thier vows? I'm trying to understand exactly ehat your saying because this is what I am getting from your OP.

If that's what your saying then it's as ludicrous as saying a person only steals when they are desperate for the item they are taking. That only covers a small portion of why people steal. Saying a bad marriage causes affairs is also a scapegoat because some people, cheaters, can and will justify ANYThING to get what they want in the moment they want it.


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## ConanHub

Jellybeans said:


> I will take "Burned alive for $500," Alex.
> 
> Death by Justin Beiber concert is the last way I ever want to go.
> 
> :rofl:


Read my mind! Death by Beiber?!?..... Shudder!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UserNameAgain

OP- A million times YES!!!! You just got an "amen" out of an atheist.

I have lurked on this site for a long time and the level of vicious nastiness, glee expressed when an "I told you so" affair is discovered from numerous (male) posters and serious lack of reading comprehension often stuns me. (I'll leave the double standards, sexism, misogyny and chauvinism for Elegirl, WandaJ, catherine609, stillgoingcrazy and others; they do a good job). The above is why I lurk and don't post.

Exhibit A - the very recent "Did I Cross a Line" post. A perfect example. If you haven't read it, you should. You'll understand everything the OP is talking about.

Oh, and for the record, I am a BS.
(Zips up flame retardant suit)


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## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> What he was saying is that being non monogamous by nature is a reason for cheating.


Eh... I didn't read that he was implying that, per se. But OK. No real point in me debating that, as only he can answer for sure.



NobodySpecial said:


> It may be an excuse. But the reason is being a lying liar.


Agreed, though I'd imagine that -- in a great many cases -- it's coupled w/ a sense of entitlement.


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## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> Read my mind! Death by Beiber?!?..... Shudder!


I think I'd rather be ripped apart in the gears of a combine.

_Maybe_ even death by sarlacc.


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## Jellybeans

ConanHub said:


> Read my mind! Death by Beiber?!?..... Shudder!


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## Jellybeans

UserNameAgain said:


> OP- A million times YES!!!! You just got an "amen" out of an atheist.


:rofl:


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## ConanHub

Jellybeans said:


>


Thanks for visually violating me! LOL! I'm going to shower off! &#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

:rofl:


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## SamuraiJack

GusPolinski said:


> I think I'd rather be ripped apart in the gears of a combine.
> 
> _Maybe_ even death by sarlacc.


Thats a thousand years...you know that right?


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## GusPolinski

SamuraiJack said:


> Thats a thousand years...you know that right?


That's "slowly digested over a thousand years". You'd die of suffocation long before that.


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## manfromlamancha

NobodySpecial, I do understand where you are coming from but am actually torn between two points of view.

On the one hand, I do wonder about the "affair-proofing" of a marriage, not allowing OSF's, GNO's, demanding transparency in everything, keeping an eye on the spouse etc. and like others have said here, this is no way to be in any kind of relationship - the Israeli army normally say when patrolling: "if there is doubt, there is no doubt". Meaning if you do not trust your spouse, nothing else matters and you shouldn't be in the relationship. This is no way to live.

BUT on the other hand .... there is some merit to being vigilant and ensuring boundaries are understood on both sides. There is some truth in "given the right situation and opportunities, people generally will cheat" and the boundaries are there to actually help the would-be cheater not cheat as much as to help with the potential BS's insecurity.

An example of "the right situation" for normally loyal spouses could be: the marriage runs into problems (not uncommon), a combination of severe self-esteem problems, lack of attention from a spouse, attention from a predator OM/OW, horniness (hope thats a word), bad communication skills on both sides and a job and/or hobby that takes one away from home/family/spouse a lot, and health/hormone issues could lead a saint to cheat sometimes.

The boundaries and certain amount of vigilance could help stop that from happening and the potential wayward from making a choice that would be out of character (Tears, UnAmor, EI etc).

So at the end of all that, the one thing that I have found in my "travels" is that the TAM way of dealing with infidelity (in general) may be brutal but is still the most effective by far when compared to the other forums and the very man "quacks" that pass off for counsellors out there.

So I stand by TAM- warts and all!


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> I think I'd rather be ripped apart in the gears of a combine.
> 
> _Maybe_ even death by sarlacc.


WOW! Sarlac???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is BS. I am non-monogamous today. That does not make me a liar, deceitful. It does not excuse lack of character and the integrity to treat another human being well.


I wasn't claiming that you were.

I have seen at least one person that couldn't handle monogamy, yet got married, and didn't inform his wife of this though.

Non-monogamy does not mean cheating. Cheating itself to me implies deception.

I'm sure plenty of marriages are non-monogamous, and not have it be cheating... if both parties agree to it.


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## Middle of Everything

GusPolinski said:


> That's "slowly digested over a thousand years". You'd die of suffocation long before that.


What if I have Mandalorian Battle Armor?


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## Middle of Everything

As to the topic at hand, I think many on Tam can be extremely harsh and critical towards anything affair/cheating related because I cant think of many things marriage-wise that could be worse.

I think the truth is usually somewhere in the middle when it comes to most things. Most topics on Tam. Whether it be another BJ, anal, alpha, not in good enough shape, sexual past, did things but wont now thread. Usually the truth is in the middle. But people have biases. They've been hurt. So its understandable that people gravitate towards sides, sometimes extreme, of issues.

Being cheated on? I hopefully never know, but I would imagine that could eat ones soul. It has to rank near the top for greatest pain one could face in a marriage. So I'll give those that have felt this pain a pass.


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## GusPolinski

Middle of Everything said:


> What if I have Mandalorian Battle Armor?


Giant Fanged Desert Vagina still wins.

Unless we're talking about Expanded Universe!


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening GusPolanski
No need. I love sex. I don't feel a need to buy a large truck to make up for any er inadequacies. I am attracted to, and attractive to a wide variety of women - and were I not married, would have a very active sex life. 

I was very unhappy when my girlfriend (now wife) left me, but not particularly upset by the cheating. I knew that she would come back and she did. The other guy seduced and used her- then dumped her. I felt more sorry for her than anything else, but considered that she got a lesson well learned.

I am confident that that I am the best person for her - if she mistakenly thinks someone else is better, I'm sure she will quickly discover her error. I'd actually rather that she cheat and learn, than wonder if there is some guy out there that is better than me. 




GusPolinski said:


> Richard, respectfully...
> 
> ...have you had your testosterone levels checked recently?


----------



## jld

RS, I sure do not wish for you that she would ever cheat. But I think it's nice that you are confident not only that she would come back, but that you truly are the best man for her.


----------



## GusPolinski

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening GusPolanski
> No need. I love sex. I don't feel a need to buy a large truck to make up for any er inadequacies. I am attracted to, and attractive to a wide variety of women - and were I not married, would have a very active sex life.
> 
> I was very unhappy when my girlfriend (now wife) left me, but not particularly upset by the cheating. I knew that she would come back and she did. The other guy seduced and used her- then dumped her. I felt more sorry for her than anything else, but considered that she got a lesson well learned.
> 
> I am confident that that I am the best person for her - if she mistakenly thinks someone else is better, I'm sure she will quickly discover her error. I'd actually rather that she cheat and learn, than wonder if there is some guy out there that is better than me.


Uhhh... OK.

Good for you!

:smthumbup:


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... OK.
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> :smthumbup:


Sure enough. I am wired quite differently!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Nobodyspecial:

the subject matter can actually be profound in some ways. the conflict between the value of the individual vs. the value of the larger social unit. The only exaggeration I see would be people's tendencies (on TAM) to inflate/exaggerate the amount of cheating that exists. thougjh its hard to know which set of statistics to embrace as more valid than others. my sense is the frequency is less than 50% for husbands; well below 50% for women. 

but that still presents no problem in terms of filling up a board like TAM with dozens of cheated-on stories week after week. with whatever lessons people glean from them. 

on the subject I'm neither victim nor perpretrator. but I have taken an interest in inumerable BH, WW stories. simply my prespective/interest is on male victims, because I'm male. I have read some stories going the other way though, of which there are plenty here. 

lessons I take away from these stories? Cheating is most often a VERY disproportionate response to the weaknesses or slights that the BS had inflicted on the WS. The BS should never evaluate being cheated on in the context of of their weaknesses as a marriage partner, not if they want to retain their self-esteem.....which they eventually find out is really important, even if they undervalue it in the beginning. they eventually find out it is more important than the marriage, more important than creating the illusion of marital love for their children etc.

I think for man that has been cheated on, he can either remain in the marriage and in a state of shame, or he can leave the marriage with an opportunity to restore his confidence. those are his choices. for a woman that has been cheated on......a distinction without a difference I think. She has those same two choices IMO.
And too many people are choosing the course that involves the perpetual shame.


----------



## NobodySpecial

If we are even discussing slights then my point was entirely missed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Really..... So all those drunken girls night out and boys night out where booze and temptation collide and some people cave and some don't are irrelevant to your mind.


I guess I see two things. One, as I mentioned, there are ****ty people in the world. ****ty people are not worth being married to. Then the worries of cheating can cease!

Second, many people can go out with friends, even drink too much, without falling into bed like an ooops. Because they genuinely care about the person whose pain they would be causing.




> Only way someone cheats is if they are in a bad marriage and not possible that a person has a character flaw that gives them no moral compass on keeping thier vows?


**** vows. That is just an excuse to show up on a single day in a nice outfit then phone the rest of the **** in. I am not talking about vows. I am talking about building a life. If one really wants to cheat proof their marriage, stop niggling about boundaries and build a phenomenal life with your spouse. I had some nifty bullet points somewhere on where to start.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

NobodySpecial said:


> If we are even discussing slights then my point was entirely missed.


you are not making one, singular point. are you? I was addressing some of the things you had said, and what others have said on this thread...


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I wasn't claiming that you were.
> 
> I have seen at least one person that couldn't handle monogamy, yet got married, and didn't inform his wife of this though.


So I would not cite being non monogamous as the reason for cheating. I would cite building the wrong life for the wrong reasons with the wrong person as the reason for cheating. I cannot understand how this person could be said to have built an actual marriage when it was premised on a lie in the first place.


That is pretty much my point. The root cause of cheating happens well before whatever immediate scenario is played.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nuclearnightmare said:


> you are not making one, singular point. are you? I was addressing some of the things you had said, and what others have said on this thread...


My point is that once you have gotten to the mindset of slights and reactions to slights and that kind of weighing and measuring, the boat has been long missed. The opportunity to develop a loving relationship where a person couldn't cheat because of their caring is long gone.


----------



## John Lee

Doing things like avoiding intimate OSFs and having healthy boundaries IS a part of attending to your marriage. When you allow yourself to seek opposite sex attention elsewhere, you interfere with the energy between you and your partner, which in turn invites finding all kinds of "flaws" in your marriage and even contributing to them. You start to get taken in by the appealing illusion of "options," you start comparing your spouse to the greener grass on the other side, you risk beginning to feel less invested in the marriage.


----------



## weightlifter

John Lee said:


> Doing things like avoiding intimate OSFs and having healthy boundaries IS a part of attending to your marriage. When you allow yourself to seek opposite sex attention elsewhere, you interfere with the energy between you and your partner, which in turn invites finding all kinds of "flaws" in your marriage and even contributing to them. You start to get taken in by the appealing illusion of "options," you start comparing your spouse to the greener grass on the other side, you risk beginning to feel less invested in the marriage.


Quoted for geniusness.

Hope that is a word.


----------



## John Lee

I say it as someone who has been on both sides of that problem. It's something I only came to understand from experience -- I was very much more in the other camp about this early in my marriage.

Also, no matter how bad things are, cheating tends to make them worse. If it's so bad that you don't want to stay, leave. Otherwise, fix the problems.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I would cite building the wrong life for the wrong reasons with the wrong person as the reason for cheating.
> 
> That is pretty much my point. The root cause of cheating happens well before whatever immediate scenario is played.


:iagree:


----------



## Zouz

One day I raised a question that coukd be silly :

Is MB cheating ?

I have the answer now that , if spouses are not intimate , if MB is a substitute to sex; then yes it could be considered as important as cheating ...


----------



## GusPolinski

Zouz said:


> One day I raised a question that coukd be silly :
> 
> Is MB cheating ?
> 
> I have the answer now that , if spouses are not intimate , if MB is a substitute to sex; then yes it could be considered as important as cheating ...


----------



## Zouz

lol gus ;

I don't mean it is cheating ; i just mean when MB is done because deprivation of sex ; it is as important as cheating is to destroy a marriage .


----------



## Horizon

Toward the end when I discovered that my partner had bought a new toy and was using it a few times each week, well that was a mighty powerful and final statement. I was being told the typical 'I don't want to, I don't feel like it " BS. But she was having a personal sex life that excluded me and of course I wasn't part of the fantasy that went with it - but someone was. Logic did not help. I tried to explain the lie, the insult, the further humiliation that this conveyed - she chose not to see it. She is and was rigorously ignorant when I wanted to examine what was going on. No one is that stupid - but she was happy to keep up the pretence that there was no meaning. And trust me, that is frustrating beyond words. Some things can't be mended. I think we, like a lot of couples, were like the blind leading the blind. We went in to it without really looking beyond the initial physical attraction. Her pattern, when things go pear shaped, is to cheat - and so she did.


----------



## LongWalk

Do some jealous spouses destroy their own marriages by fearing infidelity? Sure. 

Are there spouse who "drive" their partners to cheat? Sure. But the cheaters decision to cheat is still generally a moral failing for which the cheater bears responsibility.

Are all cheaters bad people? No. Are all betrayed spouses good people? No.

Is TAM free of gender bias? No. Sorry. Female infidelity is considered completely unacceptable. No woman cheater can come to TAM and discuss an affair without being driven away by insults. That is a sad fact. The moderators ought to have some standard statement to reassure posters that they can get help. However, this is the way TAM is right now.


----------



## Zouz

Horizon said:


> Toward the end when I discovered that my partner had bought a new toy and was using it a few times each week, well that was a mighty powerful and final statement. I was being told the typical 'I don't want to, I don't feel like it " BS. But she was having a personal sex life that excluded me and of course I wasn't part of the fantasy that went with it - but someone was. Logic did not help. I tried to explain the lie, the insult, the further humiliation that this conveyed - she chose not to see it. She is and was rigorously ignorant when I wanted to examine what was going on. No one is that stupid - but she was happy to keep up the pretence that there was no meaning. And trust me, that is frustrating beyond words. Some things can't be mended. I think we, like a lot of couples, were like the blind leading the blind. We went in to it without really looking beyond the initial physical attraction. Her pattern, when things go pear shaped, is to cheat - and so she did.


Just to confirm ,
do you deny her at certain times , accordingly she cheat with Vib?


----------



## Zouz

LongWalk said:


> Do some jealous spouses destroy their own marriages by fearing infidelity? Sure.
> 
> Are there spouse who "drive" their partners to cheat? Sure. But the cheaters decision to cheat is still generally a moral failing for which the cheater bears responsibility.
> 
> Are all cheaters bad people? No. Are all betrayed spouses good people? No.
> 
> Is TAM free of gender bias? No. Sorry. Female infidelity is considered completely unacceptable. No woman cheater can come to TAM and discuss an affair without being driven away by insults. That is a sad fact. The moderators ought to have some standard statement to reassure posters that they can get help. However, this is the way TAM is right now.


Agree with you , but no *man* cheater also can come to TAM and discuss an affair without being driven away by insults.

One time i discussed my attempt to cheat ; which I consider as a pride because I came back to wife confessing before it happens ; yet I was called names.

Not to generalize ; a human deprived from sex is classified to me as an abuse , irrespective of being male or female .

All religions describes it as a window to have devil in charge .


----------



## frankman

richardsharpe said:


> I was very unhappy when my girlfriend (now wife) left me, but not particularly upset by the cheating. I knew that she would come back and she did. The other guy seduced and used her- then dumped her. I felt more sorry for her than anything else, but considered that she got a lesson well learned.
> 
> I am confident that that I am the best person for her - if she mistakenly thinks someone else is better, I'm sure she will quickly discover her error. I'd actually rather that she cheat and learn, than wonder if there is some guy out there that is better than me.


We are wired SOOOOO differently.


----------



## AVR1962

I agree with the OP. I think where it gets complicated is finding out about something you were not thinking the person was capable in the first place. We want to make sure, want to actually have acknowledgement from the cheaters mouth which doesn't always come and as long as they deny then we can wish/want/hope for the best. When acknowledged though, I thin many times we blame ourselves and think if we did this or that it wouldn't have happened, or won't happen again.

The reality is you have cheaters in the world, plain and simple.....there are some that cannot take commitment to one person seriously. There are those who are very dedicated and committed and commit to the wrong type, the players of the world. The committed types don't understand the cheater's mind-frame and feel there could be hope left.

My first husband was a cheat, we divorced, I was not going to share my husband with other women and he did not want help nor did he want to save our marriage. I can only be thankful he was honest about that as it made it easier to let him go. We divorced 28 years ago and I can say he has lives a very destructive life. Remarried cheated on her and has cheated with every serious lady since.


----------



## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> Doing things like avoiding intimate OSFs and having healthy boundaries IS a part of attending to your marriage. When you allow yourself to seek opposite sex attention elsewhere, you interfere with the energy between you and your partner, which in turn invites finding all kinds of "flaws" in your marriage and even contributing to them. You start to get taken in by the appealing illusion of "options," you start comparing your spouse to the greener grass on the other side, you risk beginning to feel less invested in the marriage.


Can you imagine a life where even given the myriad of options, you would choose the option you have without doubt, question or even thought? Can you imagine the certain knowledge that your spouse would do the same? Can you imagine watching your spouse walk out the door each day, with the candy store open, knowing that YOU are the candy that your spouse will choose?

Most people cannot. Most people don't choose to put the bar that high because they don't think it is possible. In so doing, they only achieve wherever they put the bar. When they choose their spouse. When the attempt to solve problems in their marriage. Etcetera.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you imagine a life where even given the myriad of options, you would choose the option you have without doubt, question or even thought? Can you imagine the certain knowledge that your spouse would do the same? Can you imagine watching your spouse walk out the door each day, with the candy store open, knowing that YOU are the candy that your spouse will choose?
> 
> Most people cannot. Most people don't choose to put the bar that high because they don't think it is possible. In so doing, they only achieve wherever they put the bar. When they choose their spouse. When the attempt to solve problems in their marriage. Etcetera.


And your point is?


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you imagine a life where even given the myriad of options, you would choose the option you have without doubt, question or even thought? Can you imagine the certain knowledge that your spouse would do the same? Can you imagine watching your spouse walk out the door each day, with the candy store open, knowing that YOU are the candy that your spouse will choose?


Yes, yes, and yes.

I miss that.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you imagine a life where even given the myriad of options, you would choose the option you have without doubt, question or even thought? Can you imagine the certain knowledge that your spouse would do the same? Can you imagine watching your spouse walk out the door each day, with the candy store open, knowing that YOU are the candy that your spouse will choose?
> 
> Most people cannot. Most people don't choose to put the bar that high because they don't think it is possible. In so doing, they only achieve wherever they put the bar. When they choose their spouse. When the attempt to solve problems in their marriage. Etcetera.


No, because it's not reality. A marriage can be like that for periods of time, even long stretches, but it cannot be like that all the time. There is always going to be the time when either you or your spouse is stressed, sick, depressed, struggling at work, working too much, gains some weight, goes through a crisis, just isn't in a great mood. I think you have to avoid temptation at THOSE times to make a marriage work, not just depend on being happy all the time (imo a childish expectation).


----------



## Marriedwithdogs

Our responses and replies are born out of our experiences. I don't agree that the majority of affairs are due to issues in the marriage. Sometimes ppl cheat bc they know they won't get caught. Being married to a military man, meeting tons of people from all walks of life, I know that you can't put cheating in a box. The reasons are many. I've heard men say that they are married to the love of their life, but still like the lust and excitement of other women.


----------



## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> No, because it's not reality. A marriage can be like that for periods of time, even long stretches, but it cannot be like that all the time. There is always going to be the time when either you or your spouse is stressed, sick, depressed, struggling at work, working too much, gains some weight, goes through a crisis, just isn't in a great mood. I think you have to avoid temptation at THOSE times to make a marriage work, not just depend on being happy all the time (imo a childish expectation).


I live it every day. In sickness, in health, when we are richer, when we have been poorer. I would choose him. Always. And he me. I KNOW it is possible. Twenty plus years.


----------



## NobodySpecial

One more thing. If a bad day or a bad mood can shake this, then you are not even close.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I think its important to understand *why* someone cheats. I don't mean "because they are selfish" or some such - to me the question is why they wanted to in the first place, not why they gave in to their desires.

If someone really desires sex with multiple people, then why get married, or why not marry someone who wants an open relationship?

It seems to me that people want to cheat because there is something that they want and are not getting. I know the things that make me desire other women:

_Lack of sex, and very limited range of sexual activities from my wife (now much better than years ago). 

Lack of respect from my wife - also considerably better than long ago. 
_

These were both things that my wife could have, and finally did (at least partially) fix. 


Long ago (we were dating, not married) when she may have cheated, what she was missing was classical "romance". She wanted flowers, a partner who dressed well, made little romantic gestures etc. Some of that I should have done. Some of it I couldn't do because I was extremely poor at the time.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> One more thing. If a bad day or a bad mood can shake this, then you are not even close.


Never meant to suggest a "bad day" -- I'm talking about significant periods of distress or strain. Also, the point isn't that a bad period will *make* you cheat, the point is that you can't rely on things being good all the time in order to NOT cheat (because if you do, then as soon as things get bad you will feel entitled to cheat).

I don't think we're as far apart as you may think on this though -- the kind of marriage that is "affair-proof" stems from one's own commitment to the marriage. I think the commitment involves both committing to making your relationship good and to avoiding things that interfere with it. In my experience, avoiding one-on-one time with the opposite sex is a reflection of that commitment. I wouldn't say it's an absolute requirement, and I wouldn't say that it guarantees anything either. But it was exactly the scenario that I least expected that led me to an EA -- I loved my wife and did not think of myself as the kind of person who could possibly cheat, and the person I chose to spend time with, I had lots of good "above board" reasons for spending time with her (we were in school together), and I convinced myself I didn't even think she was attractive so there was no threat. She wasn't conventionally "hot", she was "not my type at all" etc. 

Were there also problems in my marriage at the time? Sure. But the more entangled I got the worse the problems seemed, and the less I focused my energy on working on them and accepting my wife for who she is.


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> I live it every day. In sickness, in health, when we are richer, when we have been poorer. I would choose him. Always. And he me. I KNOW it is possible. Twenty plus years.


Just curious... what brought you to TAM?


----------



## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> Never meant to suggest a "bad day" -- I'm talking about significant periods of distress or strain. Also, the point isn't that a bad period will *make* you cheat, the point is that you can't rely on things being good all the time in order to NOT cheat (because if you do, then as soon as things get bad you will feel entitled to cheat).
> 
> I don't think we're as far apart as you may think on this though -- the kind of marriage that is "affair-proof" stems from one's own commitment to the marriage. I think the commitment involves both committing to making your relationship good and to avoiding things that interfere with it. In my experience, avoiding one-on-one time with the opposite sex is a reflection of that commitment. I wouldn't say it's an absolute requirement, and I wouldn't say that it guarantees anything either. But it was exactly the scenario that I least expected that led me to an EA -- I loved my wife and did not think of myself as the kind of person who could possibly cheat, and the person I chose to spend time with, I had lots of good "above board" reasons for spending time with her (we were in school together), and I convinced myself I didn't even think she was attractive so there was no threat. She wasn't conventionally "hot", she was "not my type at all" etc.
> 
> Were there also problems in my marriage at the time? Sure. But the more entangled I got the worse the problems seemed, and the less I focused my energy on working on them and accepting my wife for who she is.


I am not talking about commitment to the marriage. I am talking about loving someone so much that you could not even think of hurting them. I am talking about either being in that state or recognizing when you aren't to get back there.


----------



## jb02157

NobodySpecial said:


> You said question, then never asked one!
> 
> For the record, I did not say that it was the betrayed spouse who was failing to care for the marriage.
> 
> I think that, in general, a lot of people put the focus on the wrong things and then get what they focus on.


Or they end up with someone very different after they married them and are left to put up with whatever person shakes out after a few months married or after the first kid comes along. Priorities shift. Responsibilities set in and some people are more able to deal with it then others. I think it's alot less due to focus on the wrong things but more on a failure to assess who you married will actually be like after you marry them. Often the warning signs are there but not given a whole lot of weight...until of course it becomes too late.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... what brought you to TAM?


Many decades ago, things were very bad in our then early marriage. A guy named Doug changed my way of thinking and saved my marriage. This was back in the day of Usenet. Kinda wound up with a forum habit after that.


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I see two things. One, as I mentioned, there are ****ty people in the world. ****ty people are not worth being married to. Then the worries of cheating can cease!
> 
> Second, many people can go out with friends, even drink too much, without falling into bed like an ooops. Because they genuinely care about the person whose pain they would be causing.
> 
> 
> 
> **** vows. That is just an excuse to show up on a single day in a nice outfit then phone the rest of the **** in. I am not talking about vows. I am talking about building a life. If one really wants to cheat proof their marriage, stop niggling about boundaries and build a phenomenal life with your spouse. I had some nifty bullet points somewhere on where to start.


I agree for the most part. Yes you can avoid people with low character in so long as you can identify it. For some people they are convincing liars so what you think you are getting and What you are actually getting are two way different things. This is where boundrys can actually be useful. I won't date a former cheater...not at all. I find them all to be justifiers and I wouldn't trust them not to justify themselves into another affair so I do think boundrys can be helpful 

In my case I knew my x wife was a cheater. I fell for her BS about it was all her x husbands fault and she would never do that to me blah blah blah. I take responsibility for marrying her anyway with that information however I do allow myself some forgiveness in that I was young and honestly believed you can love someone out of their emotional BS. I was silly.

And yes some people won't cheat. I loved my x...never cheated once no matter how drunk or the temptation and thier were plenty of them ..... When you make a commitment you either stand by it or you don't. 

The problem comes that people can and do change over time. Character is tested even in the best of environments and best of times. It is then that people either stand tall or fail. My experience has been that some will never cheat no matter what and others need little more than the opportunity to do so.


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> Many decades ago, things were very bad in our then early marriage.


Care to elaborate?



NobodySpecial said:


> A guy named Doug changed my way of thinking and saved my marriage. This was back in the day of Usenet. Kinda wound up with a forum habit after that.


How much of what you're hoping to impart upon others here would you say was taken from your interactions w/ Doug? Or, rather, what you gained from those interactions...?

Are you looking, in a sense, to sort of "pay it forward"...?


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Care to elaborate?


I have mentioned it on here a few times. But here goes. Short version.

When DH and I got married, we were both young. Well at least younger than we are now. We had preconceived notions about what marriage was and was not and what we wanted and expected from each other. We both did wrong things, unhelpful, unhealthy things. A lot of things very similar to what you hear people on here quibble about. Housework, free time, porn, lack of sex.

Each of us sought to get our way, needs, thoughts, feelings, heard and appreciated and really to win.

The advice Doug finally got me to see, hard though it was, is that we were building walls of resentment around each other. He was right when he anticipated divorce for us. His advice was, one of you needs to change the dynamic. Since I was the one on the board listening, it might as well be me.

Based on his advice, I decided to accept those things about him that I could. Those things has not changed since marriage. I chose to accept his view of porn rather than insist on my view of its meaning. Because it had a different meaning _to him_. I chose to stop arguing about he spent his time. It is his time. 

On the deal breakers, I set effective limits. I no longer cleaned up after him or did his laundry. If he left **** around, I stuffed it in his closet. I cancelled his cell phone since he would not keep within the minutes. (Remember minutes?) I gave him a bank account with his allotted spending money so he could not spend us into obliteration. I paid off all the debt over time.

He was pissed at first. But over time, he was able to realize how much I really actually had been doing while I was nagging him about the housework. He had previously not REALLY seen it. He started seeing the benefit of living within our means.

Over time, as he changed, my resentment of him lessened. He started WANTING to spend time with me rather than always trying to escape to the wood shop. Enthusiastic sex resumed.



> How much of what you're hoping to impart upon others here would you say was taken from your interactions w/ Doug? Or, rather, what you gained from those interactions...?
> 
> Are you looking, in a sense, to sort of "pay it forward"...?


A lot of it. Some of it is a result of more recent mindfulness education.

Not really. I don't have Doug's way with words. I rarely post my opinion because people tend to be so stuck in the trees that they cannot here when the forest is presented to them. I'm just here because I find the subject matter interesting.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ha... just noticed that you're at 1.5 GP (i.e. "gigaposts").

Sorry. IT nerd.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Ha... just noticed that you're at 1.5 GP (i.e. "gigaposts").
> 
> Sorry. IT nerd.


Is that a lot? I post way less than I think of things to reply. Does that count?


----------



## jb02157

I can see why he was pissed. Seems you are quite the control freak...stopped his phone, made separate bank accounts. Most guys won't put up with that ****.


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> Is that a lot? I post way less than I think of things to reply. Does that count?


To be clear, I wasn't implying that it's a lot of posts or even "not many" posts... IOW, I wasn't comparing numbers.

And, actually, that should've been "KP" as in "kiloposts".

Anyway, 1024 bytes is a kilobyte, 1024 kilobytes is a megabyte, 1024 megabytes is a gigabyte, etc. And 1024 + 512 (or, if you prefer, half of 1024) = 1536.

I have an odd thing for certain numbers. Hell, I've had a 25-digit alphanumeric product key for MS Office 2000 floating around in my head for the past decade. I can't seem to get rid of it.


----------



## GusPolinski

jb02157 said:


> I can see why he was pissed. Seems you are quite the control freak...stopped his phone, made separate bank accounts. Most guys won't put up with that ****.


Kind of unrelated to the subject matter, but OK...

Either way, the point is that one of them needed to do something in order to break the stalemate.


----------



## jb02157

GusPolinski said:


> Kind of unrelated to the subject matter, but OK...
> 
> Either way, the point is that one of them needed to do something in order to break the stalemate.


My point was that you don't try to make things better between two people by pissing the steam out of him. I thought that was kinda self explanatory


----------



## NobodySpecial

jb02157 said:


> I can see why he was pissed. Seems you are quite the control freak...stopped his phone, made separate bank accounts. Most guys won't put up with that ****.


Yup. I took control of the deal breaker items. The worst he could do was leave me. One thing I knew for sure, I was not going to live the rest of my life as the maid. And I was not going to live the rest of my life in debt with the threat of the electricity being cut all the time.

The point was made. And accepted.

I completely ceded control of everything else I was formerly trying to control because it was wrong to try to control him, who he was, or how he spent his time.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jb02157 said:


> My point was that you don't try to make things better between two people by pissing the steam out of him. I thought that was kinda self explanatory


Yah actually sometimes you do. Change is hard at first.


----------



## jb02157

It's an odd way to break the stalemate buy I guess it was successful. I would thing this course of action would most likely lead to failure.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jb02157 said:


> It's an odd way to break the stalemate buy I guess it was successful. I would thing this course of action would most likely lead to failure.


I am not sure why. Any parent knows that effective limit setting does not always yield immediate pleasure in the target. I don't own my husband's anger. I do own what I am and am not willing to accept in a marriage. Should I be so afraid of his anger, that I either divorce or live the rest of my life in a crappy marriage? 

You see on TAM all the time, one more conversation on a much worn topic rarely does a damned thing.


----------



## John Lee

jb02157 said:


> It's an odd way to break the stalemate buy I guess it was successful. I would thing this course of action would most likely lead to failure.


I have to side with NS on this one, I have found many of the things that worked in her marriage also worked in my own -- in both directions. You choose the things you can't stand for and the things you can, you draw a line in the sand about the first category and try to let go on the second.

Of course, when my wife drew a line about some of her "deal breaker" items, part of me bucked against it too, but in the long run it was for the best. Like her husband, I was too oblivious to how some of my behaviors affected her until she basically forced me to see it. At the same time, I was also able to draw certain lines in the sand about my own dealbreakers, and that has mostly worked as well.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah actually sometimes you do. Change is hard at first.


Yup. The reality is that when things are really stuck, you rarely get change the easy way.


----------



## jaquen

ConanHub said:


> I was actually going to bring up your thread but there are others as well. I get her point but there are far too many times when the "paranoid" people are right to discount them out of hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The "paranoid" people are often right when addressing marriages that have obvious, hard to miss red flags. It's not like they're prophetic or anything.

I think the foolishness is coming from this increasing desire to stigmatize everyone's marriage. 

EVERYONE is on the cusp of infidelity. 
EVERY OSF secretly wants to screw you or your spouse. 

Intention means nothing. If you go out to coffee with an OSF, it's a "date", whether that was the intention or not. People who have different boundaries are looser, don't care about their marriages, or are weak protectors of matrimony.

And if a person comes on, gets the paranoia treatment, and it turns out it was nothing? Some people seem actually mad that the worst didn't happen. There are a lot of people on TAM these days who are here for the car crashes, and nothing else. They've got buckets of hot popcorn and they're ready for the show.


----------



## John Lee

Cheating often starts with a person thinking they are exceptional, or that it can't happen to them.


----------



## tacoma

GusPolinski said:


> Hell, I've had a 25-digit alphanumeric product key for MS Office 2000 floating around in my head for the past decade. I can't seem to get rid of it.


Damn Gus, you need to see someone about that man!


----------



## GusPolinski

tacoma said:


> Damn Gus, you need to see someone about that man!


I'm hoping to replace it w/ a Windows 10 key very soon.

:smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski




----------



## nuclearnightmare

John Lee said:


> I say it as someone who has been on both sides of that problem. It's something I only came to understand from experience -- I was very much more in the other camp about this early in my marriage.
> 
> Also, no matter how bad things are, cheating tends to make them worse. If it's so bad that you don't want to stay, leave. Otherwise, fix the problems.


:iagree:

my analogy would be something like:
was the US-Japanese bad mid-1941 (sure)
did the attack on Pearl Harbor make things worse (no. it put the relationship into a qualitatively different category. well past the point of bitter disagreements. US declaration of war. policy of unconditional surrender etc)

i.e. the US did not go to war with Japan while 'weighing' whatever diplomatic or other mistakes we had made with them in the previous decade. it was with the belief that their attack was viscious, uncalled for by any measure and would have/needed to have serious repurcussions for them.
all this IMO, my way of thinking of course but for me the analogy holds well to what we are talking about.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> You rarely see people advise things like, you use the love language information to see and hear when they are talking love to your in THEIR natural language. You rarely hear advise about how to recall what you fell in love with in the first place


That's because for those people, the person they fell in love with no longer exists. I fell in love with someone who loved me, or so I thought, and would be faithful to me. The day I found out she was a cheater was the day the person I fell in love with died.




> How to support, accept and generate feelings of caring and safety in your partner instead of fear, doubt and insecurity.


We here didn't do that to them. Their cheating spouse/partner did.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> To those who are very cheat defensive often have a boundary setting mindset rather than a love growth mindset.


Uh huh, as if the cheater knew the first thing about love. 

So let me get this straight, people get cheated on, and somehow its on the betrayed???

Sorry, but boundaries are necessary. Can't have a love growth mindset if one still can't be reassured that their so-called "loving" cheater isn't still going to cheat.

I can't even believe I'm hearing this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Uh huh, as if the cheater knew the first thing about love.
> 
> So let me get this straight, people get cheated on, and somehow its on the betrayed???


No. Cheating is always on the cheater. Clearly. I am merely commenting on the scope and timeline of the root cause analysis that goes on with discussion on the various boards I have participated in over the decades.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> What he was saying is that being non monogamous by nature is a reason for cheating.


Exactly....*IF*....the cheating has nothing to do with what the BS did or didn't supposedly do. There are people that have said they cheat because they like the variety of different sexual partners.

And also notice he said "perhaps" along with some other possibilities.




> It may be an excuse. But the reason is being a lying liar.


He didn't say that. Don't know where you got this.


----------



## vellocet

Wait, NS. You are non-monogamous? So am I ....now.

But aren't you still married? Or did you get divorced?


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Wait, NS. You are non-monogamous? So am I ....now.
> 
> But aren't you still married? Or did you get divorced?


I am very happily married. We are what is termed responsibly non-monogamous. There is no lying or deception involved.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I am very happily married. We are what is termed responsibly non-monogamous. There is no lying or deception involved.


Then why would you begrudge a BS needing boundaries if you understand the lying and deception part?


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Then why would you begrudge a BS needing boundaries if you understand the lying and deception part?


I don' begrudge anyone anything. :scratchhead: I am pretty sure I would be butt sore. If I were seeking to build a cheat free life, a life where I am less likely to be butt sore, I would not do it by playing cheat police officer.


----------



## toolforgrowth

NobodySpecial said:


> I don' begrudge anyone anything. :scratchhead: I am pretty sure I would be butt sore. If I were seeking to build a cheat free life, a life where I am less likely to be butt sore, I would not do it by playing cheat police officer.


As a BS, I totally get this. It's one of the main reasons why I divorced my xWW and chose never to R with her.

I didn't want to have to monitor her behavior the rest of my life. All the "trust but verify" actions I would have had to take would have literally driven me insane.

That's no way to live...for me or for my xWW.


----------



## Wazza

nuclearnightmare said:


> Nobodyspecial:
> their self-esteem.....which they eventually find out is really important, even if they undervalue it in the beginning. they eventually find out it is more important than the marriage, more important than creating the illusion of marital love for their children etc.
> 
> I think for man that has been cheated on, he can either remain in the marriage and in a state of shame, or he can leave the marriage with an opportunity to restore his confidence. those are his choices. for a woman that has been cheated on......a distinction without a difference I think. She has those same two choices IMO.
> And too many people are choosing the course that involves the perpetual shame.


Well now, you really need to explain that one.

The decision to stay after betrayal is not without risk, and you need to decide case by case. I don't blame anyone who decides to end the marriage after infidelity. There are times when I think it is the only right course.

I chose not to.

For me personally, one of the reasons I took a vow of lifetime marriage was for the sake of my kids. It had nothing to do with "illusion of marital love". It did have to do with providing a stable upbringing. I decided it still mattered to me to do that.

It was not all about me and my (then) cheating wife. There were others involved. I weighed things up, and chose to stay and work on the marriage.

And as a side benefit, it was good, not bad, for my self esteem.

25 years on I know how it turned out for me. Forgive my strong words, but the notion that my decision to keep my vow for the sake of my children involves perpetual shame seems both ludicrous and offensive.


----------



## Wazza

GusPolinski said:


> I've had a 25-digit alphanumeric product key for MS Office 2000 floating around in my head for the past decade. I can't seem to get rid of it.


Install OpenOffice. Then you can easily get rid of MS Office.


----------



## LongWalk

I have friends who work at Microsoft. They suffer a lot.


----------



## arbitrator

NobodySpecial said:


> I am very happily married. We are what is termed *responsibly non-monogamous*. There is no lying or deception involved.


*Not to be offensive in any way, but isn't this the very same thing as an "open marriage?"*


----------



## arbitrator

vellocet said:


> Then why would you begrudge a BS needing boundaries if you understand the lying and deception part?


*Vel: Your statement above greatly reminded me of what happened to me late last night.

My youngest, a college Junior, called me late last night requesting some information for FAFSA for his application for a rather nice college scholarship for 2015-16. There was some question on one of the items that he was asking for, and he hesitated answering my question, and through the phone, I could barely hear him say to my rich, skanky XW, with whom he is staying with while in college, "Here, you ask him!"

To which her very audible response in the background to him was, "I don't want to talk to him!" And then after pausing, she slowly dictated to him the full content of the question to ask me!

I really think that the underlying reason that she doesn't want to talk to me is that she is still rather sheepish in directly verbalizing to me, fully cognizant of the fact that I now know all of the lurid details of her marital affairs, and is still just too ashamed to ever face or talk with me again!

I'm guessing that her shame and/or her lurid sense of self-justification still runs rather deep!*


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you imagine a life where even given the myriad of options, you would choose the option you have without doubt, question or even thought? Can you imagine the certain knowledge that your spouse would do the same? Can you imagine watching your spouse walk out the door each day, with the candy store open, knowing that YOU are the candy that your spouse will choose?





NobodySpecial said:


> I am very happily married. We are what is termed responsibly non-monogamous. There is no lying or deception involved.


So, it's not that neither of you is ever tempted, you decided to make it ok to indulge in the temptation. You are the candy your spouse will come back to, after he had a taste of the other candies available.

How long has it been an open marriage? If you agreed on this solution I guess there must have been a problem to solve after all, who brought up this possibility first?

Just curious.


----------



## NobodySpecial

arbitrator said:


> *Not to be offensive in any way, but isn't this the very same thing as an "open marriage?"*


No. Open marriage is one sub philosophy of a broader grouping.


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> So, it's not that neither of you is ever tempted, you decided to make it ok to indulge in the temptation. You are the candy your spouse will come back to, after he had a taste of the other candies available.
> 
> How long has it been an open marriage? If you agreed on this solution I guess there must have been a problem to solve after all, who brought up this possibility first?
> 
> Just curious.


We are not in an open marriage. We are in a poly closed quad because we happened to fall in love with another couple. We've identified as poly, I would guess for about 11 years. There was no problem and this was not offered as a solution to one. We simply do not associate our love as requiring sexual or romantic exclusivity to be real. He does not come back to me nor I to him because we stay together. I know that grosses some people out.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> We are not in an open marriage. We are in a poly closed quad because we happened to fall in love with another couple. We've identified as poly, I would guess for about 11 years. There was no problem and this was not offered as a solution to one. We simply do not associate our love as requiring sexual or romantic exclusivity to be real. He does not come back to me nor I to him because we stay together. I know that grosses some people out.


But the precedent of having sex with other people is clearly established. Quite a pandora's box there. I wonder what happens when tasty new candy presents itself?


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> But the precedent of having sex with other people is clearly established. Quite a pandora's box there. I wonder what happens when tasty new candy presents itself?


11 years. So clearly we have done tasty new without any issues. But no more tasty new for us since we are in a closed quad. No one believes me when I say it, but it really isn't about the sex. DH and I have a pretty phenomenal sex life. We have been lucky to meet some pretty great, like minded, friends. And have had a lot of love. DH remains my center, my true love, my one if not only. And I his. We like it.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I don' begrudge anyone anything. :scratchhead: I am pretty sure I would be butt sore. If I were seeking to build a cheat free life, a life where I am less likely to be butt sore, I would not do it by playing cheat police officer.


Well if you don't play "cheat police officer" for at least a little while, then you are just asking to be cheated on again. 

No consequences in the short term or at all, no change.

I'm not saying do it for the rest of your life if you decide to R. 

And if you have this open arrangement with your husband, why do you care what a BS does in the aftermath?


----------



## happy as a clam

Jellybeans said:


>


Beans... That's the exact poster of Bieber hanging on my bedroom wall... How did you know?

:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

arbitrator said:


> *Vel: Your statement above greatly reminded me of what happened to me late last night.
> 
> My youngest, a college Junior, called me late last night requesting some information for FAFSA for his application for a rather nice college scholarship for 2015-16. There was some question on one of the items that he was asking for, and he hesitated answering my question, and through the phone, I could barely hear him say to my rich, skanky XW, with whom he is staying with while in college, "Here, you ask him!"
> 
> To which her very audible response in the background to him was, "I don't want to talk to him!" And then after pausing, she slowly dictated to him the full content of the question to ask me!
> 
> I really think that the underlying reason that she doesn't want to talk to me is that she is still rather sheepish in directly verbalizing to me, fully cognizant of the fact that I now know all of the lurid details of her marital affairs, and is still just too ashamed to ever face or talk with me again!*


*

And that's the way it should be. She has nothing to say and would look damn silly trying to get all big and bad with you. I imagine you'd rip her apart...debate-wise that is.




I'm guessing that her shame and/or self-justification still runs rather deep!

Click to expand...

*Well if its shame, then to her credit, at least she has shame.

If the latter, then she can just sit and simmer in her self-justification all she wants. I'm sure that will serve her well with other men.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Well if you don't play "cheat police officer" for at least a little while, then you are just asking to be cheated on again.
> 
> No consequences in the short term or at all, no change.
> 
> I'm not saying do it for the rest of your life if you decide to R.
> 
> And if you have this open arrangement with your husband, why do you care what a BS does in the aftermath?


I don't care what anyone else does pretty much ever. Why would I? And if you read the OP, I was not talking about what to do in the aftermath of an affair. I was talking about the cheat police attitude that pervades many marriages and why I think that is not the best or most effective approach.


----------



## vellocet

KingwoodKev said:


> But the precedent of having sex with other people is clearly established. Quite a pandora's box there. I wonder what happens when tasty new candy presents itself?


Well I imagine its not the Pandora's box for them since they both agree and probably both like the lifestyle.

And I don't have a problem with that lifestyle....for other people that agree to be in one.

And I'm not going to presume there will be problems for people living that type of life, or presume to know how they should treat each other and interact. So I have to wonder about NS doing with regards to BS's that are NOT in that lifestyle.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't care what anyone else does pretty much ever. Why would I?


You tell us. You are the one that started this thread.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Well I imagine its not the Pandora's box for them since they both agree and probably both like the lifestyle.
> 
> And I don't have a problem with that lifestyle....for other people that agree to be in one.
> 
> And I'm not going to presume there will be problems for people living that type of life, or presume to know how they should treat each other and interact. So I have to wonder about NS doing with regards to BS's that are NOT in that lifestyle.


I was never talking about betrayed spouses. I can tell you what I think I would do with that level of deceit. I would turn my back, walk and never look back. Well it depends. One time monkey lust in the copy room would make me raise my eyebrows. But an affair that required deceit to maintain? Trust gone. Me gone.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> You tell us. You are the one that started this thread.


I am not sure why you are sore at me. I had an opinion. I shared it.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> One time monkey lust in the copy room would make me raise my eyebrows. But an affair that required deceit to maintain? Trust gone. Me gone.


One time monkey lust in the copy room would raise my eyebrows too. But also accompanied with her sh*t packed and waiting for her at the front door.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> One time monkey lust in the copy room would raise my eyebrows too. But also accompanied with her sh*t packed and waiting for her at the front door.


Know thyself.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why you are sore at me. I had an opinion. I shared it.


Really? Your whole first post smacks of poor WS and BS be damned if they are angry about it.

Its getting old.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Really? Your whole first post smacks of poor WS and BS be damned if they are angry about it.
> 
> Its getting old.


I'm sorry you were cheated on. But if that is what you read in the OP, you read through clouded glasses. Because that is not what I said.


----------



## vellocet

Play it off all you want.

You even said yourself some aren't going to like what you say. Now why would you say that if you didn't think what you were going to say was going to rub people the wrong way?



NobodySpecial said:


> *So there are lots of folks on TAM who won't like what I am going to say*. I generally don't post on the infidelity rants. There are so many! My husband blew his nose. HE'S CHEATING! My wife has underwear. SHE'S CHEATING! It is kinda nuts.


And that's just the one paragraph in your first post.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I was kind of confused. So I went back and read the OP:

"Cheating occurs because *one *or both of the parties, *usually both*, are not attending to the marriage."

Nowhere did I say the BS did not attend to the marriage. AFIC it could be either and more often both. 

You're really bitter. I get that. I don't know your story. I don't know how recently this came down for you. I don't know how much of the tread you read, but if you read my story, you can see I have no dog in this fight. Fixate on blame if you like. It is your life.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Play it off all you want.
> 
> You even said yourself some aren't going to like what you say. Now why would you say that if you didn't think what you were going to say was going to rub people the wrong way?
> 
> 
> 
> And that's just the one paragraph in your first post.


And you, clearly, are part of that group!


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> We are not in an open marriage. We are in a poly closed quad because we happened to fall in love with another couple. We've identified as poly, I would guess for about 11 years. There was no problem and this was not offered as a solution to one. We simply do not associate our love as requiring sexual or romantic exclusivity to be real. He does not come back to me nor I to him because we stay together. I know that grosses some people out.


I'm not grossed out, whatever works for you it's fine,IMO.

I'm impressed with the 11 years, all forms of "open" arrangements I've seen or heard about firsthand never made it beyond the 3 years mark, so kudos to all 4 for making it work long term.

What I was trying to say with the problem/solution reasoning is:
- If I understood it the right way your marriage started out as a standard monogamous relationship, right?
- At some point it became a different arrangement but I guess someone in your couple (or in the other couple) came up with the notion.
- Whoever did this must have been attracted to the opposite sex member of the other couple.
- So it looks like there was actually temptation in your marriage but someone came up with a solution that avoided deceit and cheating and was lucky enough that the other 3 shared his/her views.


----------



## KingwoodKev

italianjob said:


> I'm not grossed out, whatever works for you it's fine,IMO.
> 
> I'm impressed with the 11 years, all forms of "open" arrangements I've seen or heard about firsthand never made it beyond the 3 years mark, so kudos to all 4 for making it work long term.
> 
> What I was trying to say with the problem/solution reasoning is:
> - If I understood it the right way your marriage started out as a standard monogamous relationship, right?
> - At some point it became a different arrangement but I guess someone in your couple (or in the other couple) came up with the notion.
> - Whoever did this must have been attracted to the opposite sex member of the other couple.
> - So it looks like there was actually temptation in your marriage but someone came up with a solution that avoided deceit and cheating and was lucky enough that the other 3 shared his/her views.


In any relationship that has more than two people there's always going to be a pecking order and at some point one of the participants is not going to like where they are in the order. With just two people it's easy. They're each other's #1.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I was kind of confused. So I went back and read the OP:
> 
> "Cheating occurs because *one *or both of the parties, *usually both*, are not attending to the marriage."
> 
> Nowhere did I say the BS did not attend to the marriage. AFIC it could be either and more often both.


Oh please, the first part was about BS's being over sensitive. Just because you add a disclaimer of "both" not tending to the marriage doesn't change the tone of the entire post.




> You're really bitter. I get that.


So you post something that you know will ruffle feathers, announce that it will ruffle feathers, and you get to say this?

No, you don't.



> I don't know how much of the tread you read, but if you read my story, you can see *I have no dog in this fight*.


Yet you clearly started one, and announced you were about to ruffle feathers 



> Fixate on blame if you like. It is your life.


I'm not fixing blame about anyone's situation, mine or anyone else, on you.

I'm calling you out on your post. You knew you would tick someone off. You announced it. So own it.


----------



## John Lee

I just don't understand what you started this thread for. First of all, from my reading, in most of what you call "he blew his nose, he's cheating!" threads, it turns out the person actually is cheating. That's because people tend to have good intuitions about these things. I haven't seen many threads where it turns out the spouse is wrong.

Second, you are completely misconstruing what goes on in those situations with your derisive "cheat police" comments. No one here advocates generally tracking or spying on their spouse or "playing police" when nothing is wrong. But once you suspect cheating, it's important to get closure on the issue, whether you want to leave or reconcile. Most people feel like they need to find out for sure what's going on, confront their spouse, and make a decision. Most people aren't emotionally capable of leaving a relationship on suspicion alone, even if it's well-founded.

Now when it comes to repeat offenders, I'm with you. I don't think I could maintain a marriage after an affair, although with kids involved it gets more complicated.


----------



## tacoma

italianjob said:


> - So it looks like there was actually temptation in your marriage but someone came up with a solution that avoided deceit and cheating and was lucky enough that the other 3 shared his/her views.


There is temptation in every marriage.

The measure of an ethical partner is how they deal with it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> I'm not grossed out, whatever works for you it's fine,IMO.
> 
> I'm impressed with the 11 years, all forms of "open" arrangements I've seen or heard about firsthand never made it beyond the 3 years mark, so kudos to all 4 for making it work long term.
> 
> What I was trying to say with the problem/solution reasoning is:
> - If I understood it the right way your marriage started out as a standard monogamous relationship, right?
> - At some point it became a different arrangement but I guess someone in your couple (or in the other couple) came up with the notion.
> - Whoever did this must have been attracted to the opposite sex member of the other couple.
> - So it looks like there was actually temptation in your marriage but someone came up with a solution that avoided deceit and cheating and was lucky enough that the other 3 shared his/her views.


 We have only been with this couple for about 6 years. The notion that either DH or I were attracted to other people was NEVER a problem because it was assumed, from day one. I mean this strikes me as obvious. Does anyone really think that their spouse is only ever going to be attracted to them?

The engagement in the lifestyle was actually a result of two factors, its appeal purely from the standpoint of fun, and my interest in my own sex. We were never attempting substitute agreement with an attempt to avoid deceit. Neither of us was ever tempted to be deceitful.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> In any relationship that has more than two people there's always going to be a pecking order and at some point one of the participants is not going to like where they are in the order. With just two people it's easy. They're each other's #1.


There is a pecking order, though I don't know why that pecking order would cause anyone to be unhappy. It is more of an agreement. Marriages come first. Period. At any time that they need out for the sake of their marriage, I would say good bye with a sad but agreeing heart. Because I love them. So far, the pecking order, as you call it, makes sense to all of us.


----------



## italianjob

tacoma said:


> There is temptation in every marriage.
> 
> The measure of an ethical partner is how they deal with it.


Exactly! The point is sometimes cheating occurs because someone falls to temptation and not because of serious problems in the marriage, IMO.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Oh please, the first part was about BS's being over sensitive. Just because you add a disclaimer of "both" not tending to the marriage doesn't change the tone of the entire post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you post something that you know will ruffle feathers, announce that it will ruffle feathers, and you get to say this?
> 
> No, you don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you clearly started one, and announced you were about to ruffle feathers
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not fixing blame about anyone's situation, mine or anyone else, on you.
> 
> I'm calling you out on your post. You knew you would tick someone off. You announced it. So own it.


I am very sorry for you pain.


----------



## vellocet

John Lee said:


> I just don't understand what you started this thread for. First of all, from my reading, in most of what you call "he blew his nose, he's cheating!" threads, it turns out the person actually is cheating. That's because people tend to have good intuitions about these things. I haven't seen many threads where it turns out the spouse is wrong.
> 
> Second, you are completely misconstruing what goes on in those situations with your derisive "cheat police" comments. No one here advocates generally tracking or spying on their spouse or "playing police" when nothing is wrong. But once you suspect cheating, it's important to get closure on the issue, whether you want to leave or reconcile. Most people feel like they need to find out for sure what's going on, confront their spouse, and make a decision. Most people aren't emotionally capable of leaving a relationship on suspicion alone, even if it's well-founded.
> 
> Now when it comes to repeat offenders, I'm with you. I don't think I could maintain a marriage after an affair, although with kids involved it gets more complicated.


:iagree:

:allhail:


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I am very sorry for you pain.


No your not. Otherwise you wouldn't thumb your nose at how BS's react.


----------



## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> I just don't understand what you started this thread for.


In the event there are any people who could build a better marriage from where they are now, presumably in the absence of cheating having previously occurred. Because I have an opinion.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> In the event there are any people who could build a better marriage from where they are now, presumably in the absence of cheating having previously occurred. Because I have an opinion.


All I see is a lot of strawman arguments that seem designed to present your marriage as the only healthy one.


----------



## NobodySpecial

tacoma said:


> There is temptation in every marriage.


I don't really agree with this. Accepting this as truth is part of what I mean by holding the bar too low for your marriage. You will only rise to where you set the bar. In 22 years together, I have never once actually been tempted to sleep with someone else in a deceitful manner. I can look and say, that guy is hot. But there was no internal struggle that integrity had to overcome. Because I was cherished, loved, cared for and had great booty at home. AND I knew that cheating would hurt him very much, and I never ever want to intentionally hurt him.


He feels the same way incidentally.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> We have only been with this couple for about 6 years. The notion that either DH or I were attracted to other people was NEVER a problem because it was assumed, from day one. I mean this strikes me as obvious. Does anyone really think that their spouse is only ever going to be attracted to them?


See, exhibit A here. "Does anyone really think that their spouse is only ever going to be attracted to them?" No. No one thinks that.


----------



## samyeagar

I wonder how much the knowledge of being in a non monogamous marrige affects the perception of temptation.

I will liken it to my own sexual experience. I have only had sex with three women, however, growning up, and then after my divorce, between marriages, I had ample access and opportunity. Sex was readily available to me with minimal effort on my part. This allowed me to be extremely selective, knowing I could have it when ever I wanted. I was never desperate, never developed a "get what I can, when I can, because if I don't, I don't know when I'll have the chance again." Sort of how a full man isn't likely to be tempted to steal a loaf of bread.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I wonder how much the knowledge of being in a non monogamous marrige affects the perception of temptation.


We were monogamous for 11 of our 22 years together. So I have less cause to wonder.


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> We have only been with this couple for about 6 years. The notion that either DH or I were attracted to other people was NEVER a problem because it was assumed, from day one. I mean this strikes me as obvious. Does anyone really think that their spouse is only ever going to be attracted to them?
> 
> The engagement in the lifestyle was actually a result of two factors, its appeal purely from the standpoint of fun, and my interest in my own sex. We were never attempting substitute agreement with an attempt to avoid deceit. Neither of us was ever tempted to be deceitful.


No one thinks their spouse is only going to be attracted to them, that's why you set boundaries, in most monogamous relationships.

Motivations are clear, but someone must have been the one introducing in the marriage the notion of the new lifestyle, I guess. Did it take any convincing or did the other agree immediately? Was some couple already the object of attraction, or did that come later? What would you think would have happened in your marriage if the other partner didn't agree to the new marital arrangements?


----------



## KingwoodKev

John Lee said:


> I just don't understand what you started this thread for. First of all, from my reading, in most of what you call "he blew his nose, he's cheating!" threads, it turns out the person actually is cheating. That's because people tend to have good intuitions about these things. I haven't seen many threads where it turns out the spouse is wrong.
> 
> Second, you are completely misconstruing what goes on in those situations with your derisive "cheat police" comments. No one here advocates generally tracking or spying on their spouse or "playing police" when nothing is wrong. But once you suspect cheating, it's important to get closure on the issue, whether you want to leave or reconcile. Most people feel like they need to find out for sure what's going on, confront their spouse, and make a decision. Most people aren't emotionally capable of leaving a relationship on suspicion alone, even if it's well-founded.
> 
> Now when it comes to repeat offenders, I'm with you. I don't think I could maintain a marriage after an affair, although with kids involved it gets more complicated.



The irony is the OP is in a cheating relationship and is oblivious to it. 4 people who are all non-monogamous admittedly. Whenever there's more than two people involved there's always going to be a pecking order. Someone is going to want to be with one person at the same time somebody else is wanting attention. That's inevitable. Somebody won't be happy with their spot in the pecking order and will want to increase it. Also inevitable. Being married to a person and having sex with other people = cheating.


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> No one thinks their spouse is only going to be attracted to them, that's why you set boundaries, in most monogamous relationships.


I guess that is the crux of what I disagree with. If a couple can achieve a degree of love, cherishing, caring, then there is no temptation. I think a lot of people hold their bar, their expectation low enough that that cannot be achieved. And I think that is too bad.


> Motivations are clear, but someone must have been the one introducing in the marriage the notion of the new lifestyle, I guess. Did it take any convincing or did the other agree immediately? Was some couple already the object of attraction, or did that come later? What would you think would have happened in your marriage if the other partner didn't agree to the new marital arrangements?


I don't really recall who mentioned it first. It was quite some time ago. But it is not like one of us just came out of the blue to the other and said hey what do you think. There was no convincing. But there was no single point in time where there was a proposition and a response. It kinda just happened. If it did not happen, or it were to end today, we would go along pretty much as we are now.

I am not sure what this has to do with cheating. Except, perhaps, insofar as you don't get that it had less to do with sex than people think.


----------



## samyeagar

KingwoodKev said:


> The irony is the OP is in a cheating relationship and is oblivious to it. 4 people who are all non-monogamous admittedly. Whenever there's more than two people involved there's always going to be a pecking order. Someone is going to want to be with one person at the same time somebody else is wanting attention. That's inevitable. Somebody won't be happy with their spot in the pecking order and will want to increase it. Also inevitable. *Being married to a person and having sex with other people = cheating*.


This is somewhat of a grey area, depending on personal interpretation. For myself, I agree in the sense that once a vow of monogamy has been taken, that any breach in that contract is "cheating", whether the other person chooses to enforce any penalties. Others, such as my wife, feel that it is not cheating if both partners agree to it and are aware, essentially removing the deception element.

It essentially comes down to how one interprets the marital contract, and how one chooses to enforce it's terms.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> The irony is the OP is in a cheating relationship and is oblivious to it. 4 people who are all non-monogamous admittedly. Whenever there's more than two people involved there's always going to be a pecking order. Someone is going to want to be with one person at the same time somebody else is wanting attention. That's inevitable. Somebody won't be happy with their spot in the pecking order and will want to increase it. Also inevitable. Being married to a person and having sex with other people = cheating.


I find it interesting that someone who presumably has absolutely no experience in this area would seek to tell someone with quite a bit what it inevitable.

I have done the defense of the lifestyle thing before. And clearly you are cherry picking what to respond to. That is your right. Cheers to you.


----------



## LongWalk

toolforgrowth said:


> As a BS, I totally get this. It's one of the main reasons why I divorced my xWW and chose never to R with her.
> 
> I didn't want to have to monitor her behavior the rest of my life. All the "trust but verify" actions I would have had to take would have literally driven me insane.
> 
> That's no way to live...for me or for my xWW.


Your ex was really dysfunctional and as you wrote before without a lot of IC, she could not be a good ex.

Does she still look for opportunities to recreate some connection? Seems that your good opinion means a lot to her, perhaps for the wrong reasons. She wants to be forgiven.

You don't have much to do with her now, but do you sense that she has become more self critical? Do you every hang out with her brother?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evenign all
Poly *can* work, but it can also fail badly. There is a certain personality type that will "agree" to something that they don't really want. I know a poly couple where the wife has told her husband that it is fine with her - but they privately told her friends that it is most definitely NOT OK. Now this is terribly unfair on her part - her (somewhat clueless) husband I think honestly ins't aware that he is making her miserable. (or maybe she actually is OK but for whatever reason is lying to her friends???). 

Anyone in a poly relationship MUST make their feelings clear, and not assume that their partner will "figure it out". Actually that goes for relationships in general, never tell your partner something is "OK" if it isn't.


----------



## NobodySpecial

richardsharpe said:


> Good evenign all
> Poly *can* work, but it can also fail badly. There is a certain personality type that will "agree" to something that they don't really want. I know a poly couple where the wife has told her husband that it is fine with her - but they privately told her friends that it is most definitely NOT OK. Now this is terribly unfair on her part - her (somewhat clueless) husband I think honestly ins't aware that he is making her miserable. (or maybe she actually is OK but for whatever reason is lying to her friends???).
> 
> Anyone in a poly relationship MUST make their feelings clear, and not assume that their partner will "figure it out". Actually that goes for relationships in general, never tell your partner something is "OK" if it isn't.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I find it interesting that someone who presumably has absolutely no experience in this area would seek to tell someone with quite a bit what it inevitable.
> 
> I have done the defense of the lifestyle thing before. And clearly you are cherry picking what to respond to. That is your right. Cheers to you.


I have many years experience as a human being dealing with other human beings. You're not above jealousy. You're human. One day you'll want to be with that significant other but they'll be busy getting it on with another. That's when you know where you stand in the pecking order.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> I have many years experience as a human being dealing with other human beings. You're not above jealousy. You're human. One day you'll want to be with that significant other but they'll be busy getting it on with another. That's when you know where you stand in the pecking order.


If you are interested in learning how this sort of thing works, this book

http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Cr...TF8&qid=1424883921&sr=8-2&keywords=opening+up

Is a good read IIRC.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> If you are interested in learning how this sort of thing works, this book
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Cr...TF8&qid=1424883921&sr=8-2&keywords=opening+up
> 
> Is a good read IIRC.


I know how people work. People are people wherever you go. You can lay down all the ground rules you want but whenever more than one person is involved in anything, be it friendships, relationships, work teams, etc. a natural pecking order is always established. There will always be jealousies. It's inevitable.


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess that is the crux of what I disagree with. If a couple can achieve a degree of love, cherishing, caring, then there is no temptation. I think a lot of people hold their bar, their expectation low enough that that cannot be achieved. And I think that is too bad.
> 
> 
> I don't really recall who mentioned it first. It was quite some time ago. But it is not like one of us just came out of the blue to the other and said hey what do you think. There was no convincing. But there was no single point in time where there was a proposition and a response. It kinda just happened. If it did not happen, or it were to end today, we would go along pretty much as we are now.
> 
> I am not sure what this has to do with cheating. Except, perhaps, insofar as you don't get that it had less to do with sex than people think.


Some people have an Iron will, they will resist temptations no matter how close to the fire they get. Some people are just weak and will fall any time their resistance is put to test. Many of us are somewhere in between, maybe able to resist most of the time but at risk of getting burned if they spend too much time too close to the fire.

Setting boundaries and respecting them is not setting the bar too low IMO, but simply acknowledging the we are human and we can fail, so sometimes it's wiser to play it safe and avoid regrets later.

So yes, some posters sometimes are a little too eager to jump the gun, but to check what's happening if you stumble upon evidence that your partner has been dancing a little too close to the fire is not playing police but simply making sure everything's allright.

To bring your marriage as an example in this context is out of place, IMO, not because there's something wrong with it or with the lifestyle that you chose. It works for you so it's great. But the form you chose for your marriage allows you to avoid temptation instituzionalizing it into the marriage itself, making boundaries useless. You didn't really face the problem, you worked your way around it. It's Kirk's Kobayashi Maru.

That's what I find is not right with the premise and the concept of this thread. JMHO.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> I know how people work. People are people wherever you go. You can lay down all the ground rules you want but whenever more than one person is involved in anything, be it friendships, relationships, work teams, etc. a natural pecking order is always established. There will always be jealousies. It's inevitable.


She talks about jealousy and the different possible responses to it. But it doesn't sound like you are interested.


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> Some people have an Iron will, they will resist temptations no matter how close to the fire they get. Some people are just weak and will fall any time their resistance is put to test. Many of us are somewhere in between, maybe able to resist most of the time but at risk of getting burned if they spend too much time too close to the fire.
> 
> Setting boundaries and respecting them is not setting the bar too low IMO, but simply acknowledging the we are human and we can fail, so sometimes it's wiser to play it safe and avoid regrets later.
> 
> So yes, some posters sometimes are a little too eager to jump the gun, but to check what's happening if you stumble upon evidence that your partner has been dancing a little too close to the fire is not playing police but simply making sure everything's allright.
> 
> To bring your marriage as an example in this context is out of place, IMO, not because there's something wrong with it or with the lifestyle that you chose. It works for you so it's great. But the form you chose for your marriage allows you to avoid temptation instituzionalizing it into the marriage itself, making boundaries useless. You didn't really face the problem, you worked your way around it. It's Kirk's Kobayashi Maru.
> 
> That's what I find is not right with the premise and the concept of this thread. JMHO.


You forget or chose to ignore that for 11 years there was no one else. And no temptation.


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> You forget or chose to ignore that for 11 years there was no one else. And no temptation.


I've seen that. But ask the BSs here how many of them went on for even more than that without anything happening and then...

The other point is that some kind of desire for "something else" had to be present if you chose to change into the new lifestyle, IMO.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> You forget or chose to ignore that for 11 years there was no one else. And no temptation.


Or so you think. You can't really be sure. No one can. Especially in a situation where the people are admittedly non-monogamous.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> She talks about jealousy and the different possible responses to it. But it doesn't sound like you are interested.


I've read some of her work before. She's also been part of a lot of failed relationships. I wonder why. She's very self-serving. As long as she's happy then her partner must be too, or so she thinks. Humans are humans my friend.


----------



## KingwoodKev

italianjob said:


> I've seen that. But ask the BSs here how many of them went on for even more than that without anything happening and then...
> 
> The other point is that some kind of desire for "something else" had to be present if you chose to change into the new lifestyle, IMO.


It's a far greater risk when you're dealing with people that admit they want to have sex with multiple partners. That boundary is not on the table which is the biggest jumping off point of them all.


----------



## italianjob

richardsharpe said:


> Good evenign all
> Poly *can* work, but it can also fail badly. There is a certain personality type that will "agree" to something that they don't really want. I know a poly couple where the wife has told her husband that it is fine with her - but they privately told her friends that it is most definitely NOT OK. Now this is terribly unfair on her part - her (somewhat clueless) husband I think honestly ins't aware that he is making her miserable. (or maybe she actually is OK but for whatever reason is lying to her friends???).
> 
> Anyone in a poly relationship MUST make their feelings clear, and not assume that their partner will "figure it out". Actually that goes for relationships in general, never tell your partner something is "OK" if it isn't.


A very high number of "open" marriages come to being because one of the partners gives in to the other's wishes out of fear of losing him/her. These situations never end well.


----------



## samyeagar

italianjob said:


> A very high number of "open" marriages come to being because one of the partners gives in to the other's wishes out of fear of losing him/her. These situations never end well.


Kind of a "If you can't beat them, join them" mindset on some level, either conscious or subconscious?


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> I've read some of her work before. She's also been part of a lot of failed relationships.


I wonder if she would classify them as failed? That they ended does not make them a failure.



> I wonder why. She's very self-serving. As long as she's happy then her partner must be too, or so she thinks. Humans are humans my friend.


You read different stuff than I did.


----------



## italianjob

samyeagar said:


> Kind of a "If you can't beat them, join them" mindset on some level, either conscious or subconscious?


Sort of, maybe they are afraid that if they say no they will be cheated on, so they think they can in some way control what their SO will do.


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> A very high number of "open" marriages come to being because one of the partners gives in to the other's wishes out of fear of losing him/her. These situations never end well.


I would say that the percent among the swingers we encountered was no higher than 20%. It certainly happens. They flame out. Among the poly people I know, which obviously is not all poly people, the percent is about 0.


----------



## xakulax

I have heard this argument so many times "no affair happens within a vacuum" yes this can be true but the problem with this argument is that there is no way whatsoever post discovery of the affair to know what the betrayed spouses role was that led to the affair if any it's impossible if not extremely difficult to know and in a post d-day environment the blame-shifting is usually at a high level further exacerbating things...


The sad truth is sometimes in life we make bad decisions in who we chooses for partners we lead with our hearts rather than use are heads...


----------



## italianjob

NobodySpecial said:


> I would say that the percent among the swingers we encountered was no higher than 20%. It certainly happens. They flame out. Among the poly people I know, which obviously is not all poly people, the percent is about 0.


In my experience (people I know directly or through other people) of "open" couples, it would actually be most of them, but honestly they are not so many to make a significant sample. 

I have no direct knowledge of people into poly relationships.


----------



## KingwoodKev

italianjob said:


> A very high number of "open" marriages come to being because one of the partners gives in to the other's wishes out of fear of losing him/her. These situations never end well.


Whenever an open marriage advocate claims their own marriage is awesome I ask then why do you need to bring others into it? If your spouse is your everything then why isn't that enough for you or them?


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder if she would classify them as failed? That they ended does not make them a failure.
> 
> 
> 
> You read different stuff than I did.


Google the author. Instead of just reading her version, read other people's articles about her. Of course she wouldn't admit they failed. People like this never admit they fail at anything. It's all good with them. They won't admit that they could never be faithful to one person. The reality is they can't live up to a standard so they just reject the standard and will do everything they can to deflect from their lack of character.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I guess this thread makes my point for me. The notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness rarely get discussed. Not even useful things in a marriage, apparently, as long as partners are not getting their play elsewhere. It is too bad.

Anyone reading this thread without a massive chip on their shoulder, Doug would say to you, consider your spouse' feelings before your own. You already know what yours are. Sett effective limits ONLY on those things that you must. Accept everything else. Build strong emotional bonds. If your partner cannot or does not reciprocate in time, they are not worth the effort.

Peace.


----------



## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess this thread makes my point for me. The notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness rarely get discussed. Not even useful things in a marriage, apparently, as long as partners are not getting their play elsewhere. It is too bad.
> 
> Anyone reading this thread without a massive chip on their shoulder, Doug would say to you, consider your spouse' feelings before your own. You already know what yours are. Sett effective limits ONLY on those things that you must. Accept everything else. Build strong emotional bonds. If your partner cannot or does not reciprocate in time, they are not worth the effort.
> 
> Peace.


Of course an obnoxious post like this concludes with "peace." Classic. :rofl:


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess this thread makes my point for me. The notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness rarely get discussed. Not even useful things in a marriage, apparently, as long as partners are not getting their play elsewhere. It is too bad.
> 
> Anyone reading this thread without a massive chip on their shoulder, Doug would say to you, consider your spouse' feelings before your own. You already know what yours are. Sett effective limits ONLY on those things that you must. Accept everything else. Build strong emotional bonds. If your partner cannot or does not reciprocate in time, they are not worth the effort.
> 
> Peace.


It's funny but you sang a whole different tune about your marriage in the sex in marriage forum. My question is why isn't your spouse enough for you? Why do you need to sleep with others?


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess this thread makes my point for me. The notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness rarely get discussed.


Those things can be discussed AFTER boundaries have been set and adhered to. Otherwise its pointless to build loving bonds with someone that doesn't want to stay within the boundaries.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I see two things. One, as I mentioned, there are ****ty people in the world. ****ty people are not worth being married to. Then the worries of cheating can cease!
> 
> Second, many people can go out with friends, even drink too much, without falling into bed like an ooops. Because they genuinely care about the person whose pain they would be causing.
> 
> 
> 
> **** vows. That is just an excuse to show up on a single day in a nice outfit then phone the rest of the **** in. I am not talking about vows. I am talking about building a life. If one really wants to cheat proof their marriage, *stop niggling about boundaries* and build a phenomenal life with your spouse. I had some nifty bullet points somewhere on where to start.



I realize some people see boundaries as controlling but there is certainly a place for them in a marriage or a phenomenal life together.
no boundaries would be a free for all and there wouldn't be any relationship.
even open marriages have some.
even swingers have them.
I think boundaries go hand in hand with building love and communication it is all tied together.


----------



## vellocet

John Lee said:


> Of course an obnoxious post like this concludes with "peace." Classic. :rofl:


Yup, starts this thread off knowing, and announcing, she will rub people the wrong way....then when it happens, gets all defensive and says she is just stating her opinion :rofl:

Sorry NS, we had you pegged at hello.


----------



## convert

John Lee said:


> Doing things like avoiding intimate OSFs and having healthy boundaries IS a part of attending to your marriage. When you allow yourself to seek opposite sex attention elsewhere, you interfere with the energy between you and your partner, which in turn invites finding all kinds of "flaws" in your marriage and even contributing to them. You start to get taken in by the appealing illusion of "options," you start comparing your spouse to the greener grass on the other side, you risk beginning to feel less invested in the marriage.


:iagree:


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> **** vows.


Bingo. f*** vows. 

Stick a fork in this thread, its done.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> Marriages come first.


Tell that to the cheater


----------



## NobodySpecial

italianjob said:


> In my experience (people I know directly or through other people) of "open" couples, it would actually be most of them, but honestly they are not so many to make a significant sample.
> 
> I have no direct knowledge of people into poly relationships.


I don't know anyone in a truly open relationship, as I understand the term to mean casual, unattached sex on the side. I know I would not be particularly interested.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Tell that to the cheater



You are quite good at quoting things out of context so that they seem to be saying something other than what was actually said. For you I recommend politics!

As for you, having decided to attribute my motives to be other than what I say they are, accusing me of coming on here with the express purpose of being mean and basically calling me a liar, I have no further time for you.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> You are quite good at quoting things out of context so that they seem to be saying something other than what was actually said.


Nope, you say Marriage comes first. And you know, I agree.

But you have nothing to say about the person that definitely put marriage on the back burner, the cheater.
You'd rather put the onus on the BS in the aftermath.

And at no time did I call you a liar. But since you lied about me calling you a liar....well......


As far as your intentions, perhaps you need to think before posting. Maybe refrain from starting of announcing you are about to tick people off and then refrain from poo pooing BSs? Hmm? Perhaps? Maybe? I don't know.


----------



## LongWalk

I know one couple who were in an open relationship. Back in the 80s I met them and we were traveling together. The wife had crush on me and at a hotel one evening started coming on to me in my room. I kissed her and she stopped me and said she had to go ask her husband. They had a deal: sex with others was okay but only openly and with permission. She came back and spent the night.

I was in my 20s and it felt really weird to me the next day. But the wife said to me in front of her husband, "Don't go all weird on us."

Years later I ran into her in NYC by coincidence. All we did is say hi and goodbye in an elevator.

Seven or 8 years ago she popped up on Facebook. Last summer when I was in NYC, I took my D17 to eat dinner with her and her husband. They had two grown sons. They marriage was solid. We looked at Saturn through a telescope. That was my only experience swinging or astronomy (outside of planetariums).

So open marriages can be successful. She explained to me that they had married very young and did not want to feel that they had not lived. Once they had kids they stopped f'cking around. I don't think they were promiscuous.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> It's funny but you sang a whole different tune about your marriage in the sex in marriage forum. My question is why isn't your spouse enough for you? Why do you need to sleep with others?


I am not sure what post you are referring to. Given the level of reading comprehension I have seen from you on this one, I would not be surprised if you had no idea what I was saying in that one. But it does not much matter. DH and I are by no means perfect and have bad spells like anyone else. I doubt very much I was being dishonest at the time in whatever post I made.

I am not sure what you mean by why he is not enough for me. Hell why am I not enough for him? We don't see love as a thing of limited quantity that needs to be horded with just each other. He has a closer emotional bond with our GF than I do. They are very similar people. They are same, he and I compliment each other. Likewise with my BF and me. We are very similar in personality and approach. We love each other. That is what is of primary importance to us all.

Anyway I don't think you are seeking to understand. Between you and V you seem to want to catch me out in some kind of misdeed. As with him, mis-attributing my intentions and cherry picking lines so as to continue to misconstrue is your right. But I am not super inclined to continue to respond.

If you want to talk about building bonds of caring, love, sympathy and love, and love, and love, I am all in!


----------



## NobodySpecial

LongWalk said:


> I know one couple who were in an open relationship. Back in the 80s I met them and we were traveling together. The wife had crush on me and at a hotel one evening started coming on to me in my room. I kissed her and she stopped me and said she had to go ask her husband. They had a deal: sex with others was okay but only openly and with permission. She came back and spent the night.
> 
> I was in my 20s and it felt really weird to me the next day. But the wife said to me in front of her husband, "Don't go all weird on us."
> 
> Years later I ran into her in NYC by coincidence. All we did is say hi and goodbye in an elevator.
> 
> Seven or 8 years ago she popped up on Facebook. Last summer when I was in NYC, I took my D17 to eat dinner with her and her husband. They had two grown sons. They marriage was solid. We looked at Saturn through a telescope. That was my only experience swinging or astronomy (outside of planetariums).


I am sure this won't matter to most people. But most swingers would not call that swinging but "open". But whatever. Glad it worked out for everyone.


----------



## LongWalk

Right, open.

They didn't go to some club and screw random strangers.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure what post you are referring to. Given the level of reading comprehension I have seen from you on this one, I would not be surprised if you had no idea what I was saying in that one. But it does not much matter. DH and I are by no means perfect and have bad spells like anyone else. I doubt very much I was being dishonest at the time in whatever post I made.
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by why he is not enough for me. Hell why am I not enough for him? We don't see love as a thing of limited quantity that needs to be horded with just each other. He has a closer emotional bond with our GF than I do. They are very similar people. They are same, he and I compliment each other. Likewise with my BF and me. We are very similar in personality and approach. We love each other. That is what is of primary importance to us all.
> 
> Anyway I don't think you are seeking to understand. Between you and V you seem to want to catch me out in some kind of misdeed. As with him, mis-attributing my intentions and cherry picking lines so as to continue to misconstrue is your right. But I am not super inclined to continue to respond.
> 
> If you want to talk about building bonds of caring, love, sympathy and love, and love, and love, I am all in!


It's just sad that you're incapable of giving yourself 100% to someone. You're missing out on the most special bond of all.


----------



## NobodySpecial

LongWalk said:


> Right, open.
> 
> They didn't go to some club and screw random strangers.


Ok that made me laugh out loud. I almost lost my water on my keyboard.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> Between you and V you seem to want to catch me out in some kind of misdeed. As with him, mis-attributing my intentions





NobodySpecial said:


> So there are lots of folks on TAM who won't like what I am going to say. I generally don't post on the infidelity rants. There are so many! My husband blew his nose. HE'S CHEATING! My wife has underwear. SHE'S CHEATING!






> If you want to talk about building bonds of caring, love, sympathy and love, and love, and love, I am all in!


All well and good.......AFTER the cheater has adhered to the boundaries to which they obviously shouldn't have crossed in the first place.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> Hell why am I not enough for him?


A very fair question. If you were enough for him, he wouldn't be having sex with another woman. That's the simple truth of if. If his heart was full, if you were his everything, he'd be incapable of sharing intimacy with another person.


----------



## vellocet

For that matter, why the hell even get married?


----------



## KingwoodKev

vellocet said:


> For that matter, why the hell even get married?


Also a very fair question. I have no issue with single people that want to screw like animals in the forest but marriage is for when you grow up and make a commitment to one other person. If there is desire by either party to be intimate with others then it's not a marriage.


----------



## samyeagar

Vellocet and KingwoodKev...

What I see here is akin to trying to umpire a baseball game while enforcing the rules of rugby...you can't compare a monogamous and non monogamous marriage when it comes to the sexual aspect because it's just not even the same game.


----------



## jld

KingwoodKev said:


> A very fair question. If you were enough for him, he wouldn't be having sex with another woman. That's the simple truth of if. If his heart was full, if you were his everything, he'd be incapable of sharing intimacy with another person.


I think poly is probably an orientation.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> It's just sad that you're incapable of giving yourself 100% to someone. You're missing out on the most special bond of all.


I am thinking of a measuring cup. If I measure a cup of water, and give 1/4 of it to one of my family members, I have that much less to give to the others. Our experience causes us to find that love does not work that way. It is neither matter nor energy. Sometimes to give some away gets more back for ourselves. It is in near limitless supply.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Well alright, you guys want to reduce this to sex. You are clearly not listening. Have fun with that.


----------



## vellocet

Nah, the sex was just sort of fun side discussion.

I'm focusing on your poo pooing of BS's, and in all the talk about love, ignore the cheater, who didn't know the first thing about it, and again, put the onus of creating the loving environment on the BS in the aftermath.

Again, a loving environment can be worked on, but not until the cheater can show they are going to work within the obvious boundaries they shouldn't have crossed in the first place.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I think poly is probably an orientation.


Who knows? Maybe. From a social standpoint, it feels like being in the early days of the recognition of homosexuality. Most of us stay in the closet because that is where it is safest for us and our children. I live in a place where there would be no real back lash for us. So most of our friends know. I say most because there may be some who do not. I cannot think of anyone.

For me, on this board, it is funny. I can't win. On the poly boards I am an outcast because we don't want all open to all everything all the time. Here we are not even married, though we have all the same issues every married couple has, with a couple of evenings ever 4 or 5 months with our partners. Sex being the most important thing is a joke. We talk on the phone, text and the like. We talk more about the kids than getting it on. When we get together, dinner and the movie tend to be the highlight.

I see the way you and Dug interact. I would not choose your life. I am far from a weakling who needs to be soothed by her man. No disparagement intended. But you have expressed liking the fact that he is bullet proof to your rantings. ANd sometimes, it seems, to rant is the only way to get through. Despite these little differences, I admire the way you look to each other with a view to really do FOR the other, ask less for them to do for you, and really understand. I would bet a dollar that you two are building a truly connected relationship.


----------



## KingwoodKev

jld said:


> I think poly is probably an orientation.


That's what they'd like to believe.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I am thinking of a measuring cup. If I measure a cup of water, and give 1/4 of it to one of my family members, I have that much less to give to the others. Our experience causes us to find that love does not work that way. It is neither matter nor energy. Sometimes to give some away gets more back for ourselves. It is in near limitless supply.


Of course this is what you keep telling yourself but you're all still people. The fact is if you were each other's everything you'd be each other's only thing.


----------



## KingwoodKev

samyeagar said:


> Vellocet and KingwoodKev...
> 
> What I see here is akin to trying to umpire a baseball game while enforcing the rules of rugby...you can't compare a monogamous and non monogamous marriage when it comes to the sexual aspect because it's just not even the same game.


It's still all people and people are people.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Nah, the sex was just sort of fun side discussion.
> 
> I'm focusing on your poo pooing of BS's, and in all the talk about love, ignore the cheater, who didn't know the first thing about it, and again, put the onus of creating the loving environment on the BS in the aftermath.
> 
> Again, a loving environment can be worked on, but not until the cheater can show they are going to work within the obvious boundaries they shouldn't have crossed in the first place.


Jump waaaaaaaay back. The context of "after the affair happened" you brought to the table. As far as timelines go, I was talking about way before that. Like years before that. And I put no particular onus on the BS. 

There is this one couple I know. The woman cheated citing the normal lack of emotional connection. She was a shrilly shrew. Her husband was a Nice Guy always trying to appease the shrew. Who is wrong? For the affair? Her alone. And I told her so. Stupid *****. But for the crazy dance that led them to the place where neither of them felt connected to the other? Both of them.

For my part, I am super happy for Doug (go back and read about Doug. He was awesome.) for whacking me upside the head so that I understood that *I* was part of the dynamic that was sending my marriage into a train wreck. Cheating or divorce, it was only a matter of what was to happen first.

Castigate me all you like. I have gone through some of this stuff. And god help me actually managed to make something better. That alone is enough to condemn me. But to allow another **** and vagina into the equation is completely unthinkable. Perish the thought.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> Of course this is what you keep telling yourself but you're all still people. The fact is if you were each other's everything you'd be each other's only thing.


You and I think differently. I am fine with that.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> Jump waaaaaaaay back. The context of "after the affair happened" you brought to the table. As far as timelines go, I was talking about way before that. Like years before that. And I put no particular onus on the BS.
> 
> There is this one couple I know. The woman cheated citing the normal lack of emotional connection. She was a shrilly shrew. Her husband was a Nice Guy always trying to appease the shrew. Who is wrong? For the affair? Her alone. And I told her so. Stupid *****. But for the crazy dance that led them to the place where neither of them felt connected to the other? Both of them.
> 
> For my part, I am super happy for Doug (go back and read about Doug. He was awesome.) for whacking me upside the head so that I understood that *I* was part of the dynamic that was sending my marriage into a train wreck. Cheating or divorce, it was only a matter of what was to happen first.
> 
> Castigate me all you like. I have gone through some of this stuff. And god help me actually managed to make something better. That alone is enough to condemn me. But to allow another **** and vagina into the equation is completely unthinkable. Perish the thought.


Well, you guys found a solution that works for you. You couldn't live up to a standard so you got rid of the standard. Nothing new about that.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I see the way you and Dug interact. I would not choose your life. I am far from a weakling who needs to be soothed by her man. No disparagement intended. But you have expressed liking the fact that he is bullet proof to your rantings. ANd sometimes, it seems, to rant is the only way to get through. Despite these little differences, I admire the way you look to each other with a view to really do FOR the other, ask less for them to do for you, and really understand. I would bet a dollar that you two are building a truly connected relationship.


It is truly connected. I don't hold anything back. We are in harmony.

I think D/s is an orientation, too. People don't understand that it comes from within, at least for some. You can't turn it off, anymore than gay people can turn it off.

Anyway, back to the subject of the thread . . .


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Anyway, back to the subject of the thread . . .


Which is long gone. I am a bad person. I should feel bad. New topic for the thread.

Somewhere Doug of usenet of old is sitting in his rocker (older than me) thinking who the hell is talking about me???


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> Well, you guys found a solution that works for you. You couldn't live up to a standard so you got rid of the standard. Nothing new about that.


Why would anyone want to live up to a standard? How emotionally draining. Especially a standard that is rammed down our throats by grey hairs too old to remember what living is like.

We got married young with the same expectations as everyone else. Over time we changed our vows. We changed them to promise to always love the other as they see fit. To seek their happiness. I can tell you, with pain in his heart, my husband would leave me if it would make me happy. I never want him to leave me since we are happiest together. I would do the same. On the day he is better off without me is the day he should go. Because I love him.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would anyone want to live up to a standard? How emotionally draining. Especially a standard that is rammed down our throats by grey hairs too old to remember what living is like.
> 
> We got married young with the same expectations as everyone else. Over time we changed our vows. We changed them to promise to always love the other as they see fit. To seek their happiness. I can tell you, with pain in his heart, my husband would leave me if it would make me happy. I never want him to leave me since we are happiest together. I would do the same. On the day he is better off without me is the day he should go. Because I love him.



Whatever works for you. Have you 4 ever taken a polygraph? They can be really enlightening. You should take one and see if everything is still as you think it is.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> Jump waaaaaaaay back. The context of "after the affair happened" you brought to the table. As far as timelines go, I was talking about way before that. Like years before that. And I put no particular onus on the BS.


But it was the BS you decided to paint in an unreasonable light after your declaration of people getting ticked off at what you were about to say.




> There is this one couple I know. The woman cheated citing the normal lack of emotional connection. She was a shrilly shrew. Her husband was a Nice Guy always trying to appease the shrew. Who is wrong? For the affair? Her alone. And I told her so. Stupid *****. But for the crazy dance that led them to the place where neither of them felt connected to the other? Both of them.


That sounds reasonable. So maybe you didn't mean to make it look like BSs were jackasses in your first post and it just came out that way?




> But to allow another **** and vagina into the equation is completely unthinkable. Perish the thought.


In what context are you presenting the above? Allowing another member and vagina into the equation as a couple who agrees to be "poly"? Nothing wrong with that as long as its the lifestyle you both want.

Present that same situation to a monogamous relationship, then yes, the thought should perish.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> But it was the BS you decided to paint in an unreasonable light after your declaration of people getting ticked off at what you were about to say.


Well sweetness and light were never my strong suit. I had something to say. That people might be bothered by it was recognized but secondary to the intent.



> That sounds reasonable. So maybe you didn't mean to make it look like BSs were jackasses in your first post and it just came out that way?


It did not come out that way at all. You chose to read it that way.




> In what context are you presenting the above? Allowing another member and vagina into the equation as a couple who agrees to be "poly"? Nothing wrong with that as long as its the lifestyle you both want.
> 
> Present that same situation to a monogamous relationship, then yes, the thought should perish.


The context was the complete disregard for what was written in favor of being all freaked out that sex with someone else was involved. I am not to be credited, my thoughts are not to be credited, as useful simply because there is sex. I feel sorry for you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> Whatever works for you. Have you 4 ever taken a polygraph? They can be really enlightening. You should take one and see if everything is still as you think it is.


Woa. Very cloak and dagger. What crazy mysteries would we find??


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> It did not come out that way at all. You chose to read it that way.


Then why did you announce that you knew it would tick some people off?




> The context was the complete disregard for what was written in favor of being all freaked out that sex with someone else was involved.


Where was I freaked out about it? Only time I freak out about it is when cheating is involved, and rightfully so.




> I feel sorry for you.


Oh brother


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> Woa. Very cloak and dagger. What crazy mysteries would we find??


Not how you think everything is going. That I'd be willing to bet quite a chunk of money on.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Then why did you announce that you knew it would tick some people off?


For the needs to reread croud:

"Well sweetness and light were never my strong suit. I had something to say. That people might be bothered by it was recognized but secondary to the intent."



> Where was I freaked out about it? Only time I freak out about it is when cheating is involved, and rightfully so.


Do you understand now that I was talking about cheating prevention from a good place prior to its actually happening? Or do I need to hit you?


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> Not how you think everything is going. That I'd be willing to bet quite a chunk of money on.


Ok, I'll bite. The rest of the family is playing some online FPS. What do you imagine is "going"?


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> For the needs to reread croud:
> 
> "Well sweetness and light were never my strong suit. I had something to say. That people might be bothered by it was recognized but secondary to the intent."



Nice try, but that doesn't explain it.




> Do you understand now that I was talking about cheating prevention from a good place prior to its actually happening?


What does that have to do with making BS's look to be the unreasonable ones? And yes, that's exactly what you did, no matter how you try to spin it.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I really need to see if I understand the point(s) being made here:


You decided jointly to be in a poly quad relationship (sub category of open marriage) after you had problems in the marriage and after receiving advice from Doug.

From that you have a very happy marriage and are in love with the other couple but you both are more in love with each other.

You (and your husband) don't care if either of you had an affair (i.e. someone outside this relationship that you haven't agreed on) because at that point the other would automatically recognise that the cheater isn't happy with what you currently have and will "release" the cheater and not stand in his/her way so that they can be happy because of the love he/has for him/her

Thus there is never a reason to monitor boundaries being broken. But then if they ever did cheat, you would never know because there is no monitoring.

I have got to say that your arrangement is more the exception than the rule and if it works for you then great.

I am positive that there could be a situation where your husband could cheat on you (go outside of the 4 for sex). Especially if there was no checking. Lets say that one of the other three says something to pi$$ him off. He starts resenting it. Then lets say the other 3 gang up on him as a result. He finds a comforting ear in Lucy the PA at the office who admires him for the way he is. etc etc

In this scenario, your explanation would be well he is happiest with her so I will just let him go even thought it breaks my heart. Rather than through monitoring, discover that he has had inappropriate conversations with her, put a stop to it and try and deal with the resentment he feels?


----------



## manfromlamancha

And throw into the mix in my last post, he also feels that the OM's performance has been better than his with you and also resents that but doesn't dare bring it up.

The sort of stuff that could happen in a relationship, right ?

And Lucy is the type of woman he would normally go for but hasn't shared that with you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

manfromlamancha said:


> I really need to see if I understand the point(s) being made here:
> 
> 
> You decided jointly to be in a poly quad relationship (sub category of open marriage) after you had problems in the marriage and after receiving advice from Doug.
> 
> From that you have a very happy marriage and are in love with the other couple but you both are more in love with each other.
> 
> You (and your husband) don't care if either of you had an affair (i.e. someone outside this relationship that you haven't agreed on) because at that point the other would automatically recognise that the cheater isn't happy with what you currently have and will "release" the cheater and not stand in his/her way so that they can be happy because of the love he/has for him/her
> 
> Thus there is never a reason to monitor boundaries being broken. But then if they ever did cheat, you would never know because there is no monitoring.
> 
> I have got to say that your arrangement is more the exception than the rule and if it works for you then great.
> 
> I am positive that there could be a situation where your husband could cheat on you (go outside of the 4 for sex). Especially if there was no checking. Lets say that one of the other three says something to pi$$ him off. He starts resenting it. Then lets say the other 3 gang up on him as a result. He finds a comforting ear in Lucy the PA at the office who admires him for the way he is. etc etc
> 
> In this scenario, your explanation would be well he is happiest with her so I will just let him go even thought it breaks my heart. Rather than through monitoring, discover that he has had inappropriate conversations with her, put a stop to it and try and deal with the resentment he feels?


No.


----------



## NobodySpecial

You people are completely messed up.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

NobodySpecial said:


> You people are completely messed up.


How?

Not all people have been supportive of your relationship, but the majority have said that if it works for you then that is fine.

The philosophy is different.

In a monogamous relationship, the boundaries are set and we all agree to go into these relationships with them. In your relationship you don't. That's fine, its all agreed upon.

In monogamous relationships jealousy and consequences for overstepping boundaries are understood as a part of the deal. In your relationship it is not. That is fine.

You all have decided to suppress jealousy. In my personal view, I think jealousy is a normal part of a relationship and so are the boundaries associated with that. 

The problem I have is when monogamous people try to say those who are not polygamous are ****ed up. But do not pretend that polygamous people do not also say that monogamous people are ****ed up. Its hypocrisy to do so when the defense is that it is consensual. So are monogamous relationships. Respect our decision as well.


----------



## GusPolinski

What was this thread supposed to be about again?


----------



## tacoma

GusPolinski said:


> What was this thread supposed to be about again?


The last time I posted in it it was about how we often jump the gun to declare a spouse cheating in this place.

Which is very true and something I've pointed out many, many, times in threads just like this one.

Maybe I should have warned Nobodyspecial.

Sorry


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

GusPolinski said:


> What was this thread supposed to be about again?


TBH though, I think we have established pretty firmly on TAM that you can't make someone cheat but you can contribute to problems in a marriage already. So I didn't see this thread sparking some discussion beyond that. 

What it moved to do spark a lot of discussion.

Good? Bad? I don't know


----------



## convert

I think the OP is saying we jump the gun here on TAM saying to other posters that their spouse is cheating when there is red flags and they should go straight to divorce.

The OP also says that if a spouse is that bad to spy and not trust them why stay married you should divorce.

these two ideas seems to contradict each other
but I think OP said that they were in a non-monogamous relationship,which most of us here find a little foreign.

The OP says if we work on our own marriages with trust and love that our spouse will not cheat.

for those of us that have failed on this and cheating occurs and we want to stay married and try R you have to take care of the problems that caused the cheating but before that can happen we have to take care of the 800 pound elephant in the room, which is the cheating. The affair has to stop first before R and working on the problems in the marriage can begin.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
To me "cheating" implies a betrayal of trust. If a couple has agreed to intimate (sexual and social) interactions outside of their marriage, then it isn't cheating.

I have not problem with poly as long as everyone is honest with each other (including being honest about things they don't want). 

I wish I did have the psychological makeup for poly to work for *me* but I don't. For those for whom it does work - then they are welcome to enjoy. I have poly friends and to some extent I envy them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> How?


The wild assumptions, mis-attributions and general making stuff up rather than read what is written.



> Not all people have been supportive of your relationship, but the majority have said that if it works for you then that is fine.


I don't need support. I would prefer people comment on what was actually said. But this is the internet.



> The philosophy is different.
> 
> In a monogamous relationship, the boundaries are set and we all agree to go into these relationships with them. In your relationship you don't. That's fine, its all agreed upon.
> 
> In monogamous relationships jealousy and consequences for overstepping boundaries are understood as a part of the deal. In your relationship it is not. That is fine.
> 
> You all have decided to suppress jealousy. In my personal view, I think jealousy is a normal part of a relationship and so are the boundaries associated with that.


Why do people assume we deny or squelch jealousy? Jealousy happens. We simply choose to face it head on rather than avoid it. 



> The problem I have is when monogamous people try to say those who are not polygamous are ****ed up. But do not pretend that polygamous people do not also say that monogamous people are ****ed up. Its hypocrisy to do so when the defense is that it is consensual. So are monogamous relationships. Respect our decision as well.


I am not even the one who brought poly into this conversation. At no time did I seek to call monogamous people in any way screwed up. I called damaged people slinging mud at what they don't understand screwed up.


----------



## NobodySpecial

tacoma said:


> The last time I posted in it it was about how we often jump the gun to declare a spouse cheating in this place.
> 
> Which is very true and something I've pointed out many, many, times in threads just like this one.
> 
> Maybe I should have warned Nobodyspecial.
> 
> Sorry


It was actually thoughts on raising the bar, or level of what you can want in a marriage, above ideas like not too bad, no big problems, "staying" which you see so often here. It is about believing that you can be so completely cherished that you could not want to hurt your partner.


----------



## JCD

NobodySpecial said:


> Nope.  You were actually a breath of fresh air. It kinda sounds like you just married a heartless B and did not know it.
> 
> The thing that gets me is the copious number of posters who deal so heavily in cheat prevention mode that they can never move into an actually useful cheat prevention strategy. True love.


True Love is nice if you can get it. But like the TAM forum, it tends to go in cycles too. Relationships have periods of distance, staleness...and portions of pretty joyful interaction.

I have never met a couple who could keep a fever pitch of passion and 'true love' high forever.

What you need to compliment true love is honesty, integrity, forgiveness, understanding and sometimes just a quiet stubborness when true love is going through a bit of a slump.

But I agree with you. What TAM does is actually pretty backwards. When a plane crashes, the National Transportation Safety Board goes out and tries to figure out 'how did we get this crash'.

What the divorce TAM posters do is essentially say 'pull your eject lever' instead of saying 'PULL UP AND DON'T HIT THE GROUND'.


The marriage aircraft might not have to crash and no one wants to look at the long chain of stupidity by the Captain and First Officer on how they actually GOT to the crash.

That might be uncomfortable and maybe remind them that they weren't perfect spouses either.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

I owe you an apology NobodySpecial. I'm sorry that I jumped the gun on what you meant. It doesn't make it correct my justification, but this is the internet and so I tend to be cynical, but I wronged you. I won't jump the gun again.

I agree with what you are saying about raising the bar. However, we are a forum in which people generally come to when the **** has already hit the fan years ago. At this point we are salvaging relationships where one or both people have checked out. That mutual relationship has already gone. The 180 is a way to shock the relationship back. 

Also, some people don't want to hurt their partner not because they are cherished, but because they know it is wrong. On the flip side, someone can feel absolutely cherished, get all the material and emotional energy out of their spouse and still cheat them because that is what they do. I think for the majority of marriages you are right, but not everyone is as moral.

PLUS: What JCD said above. Finding the problem should happen first before saying divorce divorce divorce


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

> The thing that gets me is the copious number of posters who deal so heavily in cheat prevention mode that they can never move into an actually useful cheat prevention strategy. True love.


I want to respond to this directly.

The BS is not responsible for the cheating. The only one who can prevent cheating is the individual by not going out and cheating. There can be true love. But in true love there is ups and downs and good times and bad times. There are times when you agree and don't agree. True love is deciding that you are going to continue to contribute to the relationship.

Some people in the downs decide to cheat instead.

Honestly, I would not judge a man or woman who has faced years of abuse from their spouse and then ended up cheating as the same as someone who was getting all financial and emotional abuse from their spouse and then cheated. The BS who was abusive completely dropped their responsibility. However, they still could not make that person cheat. 

You can strengthen the marriage and I am sure there is a positive correlation between investing in the marriage and lower rates of cheating. However, you cannot actually control the cheating variable.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> Yup. I took control of the deal breaker items. The worst he could do was leave me. One thing I knew for sure, I was not going to live the rest of my life as the maid. And I was not going to live the rest of my life in debt with the threat of the electricity being cut all the time.
> 
> The point was made. And accepted.
> 
> I completely ceded control of everything else I was formerly trying to control because it was wrong to try to control him, who he was, or how he spent his time.


Yes it sounds like good boundaries were set and it sounds like it worked/is working.
you may not see them as boundaries but they are.
So why come down on posters that talk about boundaries being set when you yourself did them and it is working for you.

effective limit settings, deal breakers, Boundaries it is semantics there the same


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I am very happily married. We are what is termed *responsibly * non-monogamous. There is no lying or deception involved.


The word "responsibly" would indicate boundaries are set-- aka effective limit setting or maybe deal breakers or rules.

My guess and i could be wrong but if I would be in a relationship like this some of the rules, boundaries, effective limit settings would be:
always use protection
maybe some discretion
certain nights are meant for only you and husband
monies spending limit 


I don't know, I am just guessing here


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I don' begrudge anyone anything. :scratchhead: I am pretty sure I would be butt sore. If I were seeking to build a cheat free life, a life where I am less likely to be butt sore, I would not do it by playing cheat police officer.


But you have in post #59 you said posters need to stop niggling about boundaries because it is not away to cheap proof a marriage.

and it is, at least one of the ways along with love, devotion, and trust
again you yourself use boundaries you just call them effective limit setting.

I am not attacking you, just trying to get what you are saying.
you do some of the same things that you are calling other posters out for here on TAM


----------



## dtc37

My opinion and what I found is that cheating is part of human nature its in our dna. We want what we can't have. Cheating has and will always happen. The reason now that we see a rise in cheating spouses is now we have better technology to catch people cheating. Think about before cell phones and voice recorders before computers even. The man was the one in charge of making the money and steering the ship. While the wife stays home and gets taken care of and if she acted up in the least bit she was out, and had nowhere to go. That's why a couple centuries ago the man was the one that mostly participated in affairs and the only way to really find out if you're spouse was cheating was to follow them around and no one had the time for that nor did they confront, out of fear. Nowadays it's a bit different isn't it, women have equal rights and freedoms and opportunities. Now women really don't NEED a man do they. A women can make as much if not more money and provide for them selves. And now with those freedoms women now cheat as much as men do. Women's Dna hasn't changed tho. They still want a man to be the man and take control of situations and when he can't women seek elsewhere. Which also caused a rise. This is caused by what I like to call ROLE SWITCH. That's when the man can't be a man. Not that he doesn't want to but the women has taken the wheel and started to steer the ship.
I have studied social dynamics for a while now. I've seen women days before their wedding getting picked up by other men. I've also seen men out with their wives at the same venue, party, bar go into the bathroom with other women for a quickie. And these are people I know. With AWESOME relationships. Imagine the 5billion other married people in the world. Don't really know the exact number but get my point. Its going to happen and sometimes has nothing to do with their current relationships. Is it because cheating is so exposed in the media now? Maybe. 
But cheating will happen with or without it let me take it a step further and say that cheating is just a value system nowadays. Because now what we have is marriages with threesomes and open marriages, and all sort of weird ****. Right? So let's say you're in one of those types of relationships what do you consider cheating. What is your VALUE on it. It can't be sex with someone else because you have an open marriage. Some people consider talking to an opposite sex cheating. So it's all based off your value system. What you might consider cheating might be normal for others. So what people need to do is find a partner with the same VALUE towards cheating. Wether you like threesome or no contact with opposite sex. Find your partner and let them know what your value system is and be HONEST if it's the same stay with them mabey you might find a SUPER rare relationship that cheating doesn't happen.


----------



## KingwoodKev

convert said:


> But you have in post #59 you said posters need to stop niggling about boundaries because it is not away to cheap proof a marriage.
> 
> and it is, at least one of the ways along with love, devotion, and trust
> again you yourself use boundaries you just call them effective limit setting.
> 
> I am not attacking you, just trying to get what you are saying.
> you do some of the same things that you are calling other posters out for here on TAM


I find it odd that anyone here would take advice on boundaries from someone who has none. Her hubby can stick it anywhere he likes. She can get stuck by anyone she likes. It's anything goes.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> We are not in an open marriage. We are in a poly closed quad because we happened to fall in love with another couple. We've identified as poly, I would guess for about 11 years. There was no problem and this was not offered as a solution to one. We simply do not associate our love as requiring sexual or romantic exclusivity to be real. He does not come back to me nor I to him because we stay together.* I know that grosses some people out.*


Not really it might be easier then an full open marriage.
closed quad, still sounds like good boundaries are in place


----------



## arbitrator

vellocet said:


> Well I imagine its not the Pandora's box for them since they both agree and probably both like the lifestyle.
> 
> And I don't have a problem with that lifestyle....for other people that agree to be in one.
> 
> And I'm not going to presume there will be problems for people living that type of life, or presume to know how they should treat each other and interact. So I have to wonder about NS doing with regards to BS's that are NOT in that lifestyle.


*Unless, of course, one of them is unfortunate enough to bring home a rather nasty STD to bestow as a surprise gift upon the other!*


----------



## KingwoodKev

arbitrator said:


> *Unless, of course, one of them brings home a rather nasty STD to bestow upon the other!*


That is a definite risk of promiscuity. I guess to each their own but I know people. People are people no matter how "progressive" they claim to be. Eventually one of them will come across a person that really is their everything. Someone that fulfills their needs to the point where they realize what real love is and they don't want to be with other people. Swingers and open marriage people defend their choices to the end and you can tell they work really hard even to convince themselves that it's all cool but the reality is almost always different. I advise anyone in that lifestyle to have all parties involved take a polygraph test. I'd be willing to bet a big chunk of money that the "relationship" is never the same after the test.

Why? Because they're all still people and people are the same everywhere.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't care what anyone else does pretty much ever. Why would I? *And if you read the OP, I was not talking about what to do in the aftermath of an affair. I was talking about the cheat police attitude that pervades many marriages* and why I think that is not the best or most effective approach.


In your original post you mention the Infidelity rants, I am assuming from the CWI section. 
I am a pro R guy and when people go to the CWI section the cheating has usually already occurred or about to for what ever reason , yes usually problems in the marriage. 
the cheating needs to be addressed first if R is the goal and in some cases even if D is the goal (in an at fault state).
The "cheat police" offer ways to get the affair to stop, to get the truth (most of it), protect from false R, maybe even protect from STD's.
once the big elephant in the room has been addressed the problems in the marriage can be addressed or if it is that bad a better finally decision can be made to divorce.


----------



## KingwoodKev

convert said:


> In your original post you mention the Infidelity rants, I am summing from the CWI section.
> I am a pro R guy and when people go to the CWI section the cheating has usually already occurred or about to for what ever reason , yes usually problems in the marriage.
> the cheating needs to be addressed first if R is the goal and in some cases even if D is the goal (in an at fault state).
> The "cheat police" offer ways to get the affair to stop, to get the truth (most of it), protect from false R, maybe even protect from STD's.
> once the big elephant in the room has been addressed the problems in the marriage can be addressed or if it is that bad a better finally decision can be made to divorce.


TAM'ers over at CWI were HUGELY helpful to me and I'll be forever grateful.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> *I was never talking about betrayed spouses*. I can tell you what I think I would do with that level of deceit. I would turn my back, walk and never look back. Well it depends. One time monkey lust in the copy room would make me raise my eyebrows. But an affair that required deceit to maintain? Trust gone. Me gone.


yes you did, maybe not directly but in the infidelity rants (CWI) section (from your OP) there are mostly BS


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> In the event there are any people who could build a better marriage from where they are now, presumably in the absence of cheating having previously occurred. Because I have an opinion.


I believe, I want to believe that a better marriage can be built even after the cheating.
well I/we are trying real hard


----------



## KingwoodKev

convert said:


> I believe, I want to believe that a better marriage can be built even after the cheating.
> well I/we are trying real hard


If there is real love by both parties for each other than all things are possible. All the other bullsh*t is just the noise of life. Noise can be deafening sometimes but is always fixable. That fix is impossible, however, if mutual love is not there.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess this thread makes my point for me. *The notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness rarely get discussed*. Not even useful things in a marriage, apparently, as long as partners are not getting their play elsewhere. It is too bad.
> 
> Anyone reading this thread without a massive chip on their shoulder, Doug would say to you, consider your spouse' feelings before your own. You already know what yours are. Sett effective limits ONLY on those things that you must. Accept everything else. Build strong emotional bonds. If your partner cannot or does not reciprocate in time, they are not worth the effort.
> 
> Peace.


again that is because in the CWI section we are COPING WITH INFIDELITY. The affair has to be or should be addressed and stopped first before R can begin then the notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness can be addressed.

if we tell BS to do that when there is infidelity involved it is "nice -ing" the wayward spouse back and it does not work most of the time.
or if we tell the BS that there would have not been infidelity if he or she would have built loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness, although maybe truful it does not help them at that stage, most of them already blame them selves for the cheating


----------



## jld

Do they blame themselves, convert? I never noticed that.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Do they blame themselves, convert? I never noticed that.


A number of stories start out including something along the lines of "I could have been, should have been, more...loving, supportive, attentive..." fill in the blank. To me, that is a form of taking at least some of the blame.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> A number of stories start out including something along the lines of "I could have been, should have been, more...loving, supportive, attentive..." fill in the blank. To me, that is a form of taking at least some of the blame.


I have occasionally seen that. But it always seems to be countered very quickly by people telling them that No, they have absolutely no responsibility at all for what happened.


----------



## KingwoodKev

jld said:


> I have occasionally seen that. But it always seems to be countered very quickly by people telling them that No, they have absolutely no responsibility at all for what happened.


The decision to cheat belongs to the cheater and no one else. The problems that exist in a marriage belong to both parties.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> I have occasionally seen that. *But it always seems to be countered very quickly by people telling them that No, they have absolutely no responsibility at all for what happened*.


Oh, for sure, but the initial posts from the OP often show them taking the blame. Getting the betrayed spouse to realize quickly that they are not to blame for the cheaters behavior is a crucial first step in recovery and moving beyond the affair.


----------



## convert

jld said:


> Do they blame themselves, convert? I never noticed that.


a lot do, I did

question like what did I do or not do for her to go to someone else.
was I good enough in bed etc.

I see the same question with other BS


----------



## jld

Well, glad to hear at least _internally_ they feel some responsibility for the outcome.

When people feel something is entirely out of their control, it is easy to slip into victimhood.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I have occasionally seen that. But it always seems to be countered very quickly by people telling them that No, they have absolutely no responsibility at all for what happened.


Wrong. They have no responsibility for the cheaters decision, an action, to cheat.

They are not to blame for their other spouses cheating. No ifs ands or buts.

What they are to blame if their part of the responsibility to the marriage.

A BS has their part of the responsibility for the health of the marriage. If someone takes problems in a marriage and decides to go f**k other people....that's on them.


----------



## convert

samyeagar said:


> Oh, for sure, but the initial posts from the OP often show them taking the blame. *Getting the betrayed spouse to realize quickly that they are not to blame for the cheaters behavior is a crucial first step in recovery and moving beyond the affair.*


yes, that was the first thing I got when i came here


The only thing and mean the only thing i did right before I came here was exposure far and wide (I was scared). it killed the affair in it's tracks. The only person i didn't tell at the time was my 8 year old son but he found later by over hearing his ants talking.


----------



## vellocet

How about this:

In my marriage, I tried. I watched the kids so she could have some girl time. Thought I was being an understanding husband.

Tried to keep the home fires stoked, always showed affection, only to be rejected.

So I was unhappy in my marriage. But I didn't cheat.

So if someone is going to say I am to blame for her spreading her legs for someone else....are ya also going to say that she gets to take credit for me NOT cheating?


----------



## NobodySpecial

convert said:


> yes you did, maybe not directly but in the infidelity rants (CWI) section (from your OP) there are mostly BS


I was not talking about CWI. I never go there. I never read there. I have nothing useful to offer those people.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> How about this:
> 
> In my marriage, I tried. I watched the kids so she could have some girl time. Thought I was being an understanding husband.
> 
> Tried to keep the home fires stoked, always showed affection, only to be rejected.
> 
> So I was unhappy in my marriage. But I didn't cheat.
> 
> So if someone is going to say I am to blame for her spreading her legs for someone else....are ya also going to say that she gets to take credit for me NOT cheating?


Sometimes the only mistake we make in a relationship is having gotten involved in the relationship in the first place. Sometimes two people are just not compatible.

I do think it's helpful to go over things and see if there's anything we could've done differently. It helps us learn for next time, or it could just help us to advise others. Our experiences are not for naught. There's always something that can be gleaned.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I was not talking about CWI. I never go there. I never read there. I have nothing useful to offer those people.


You're smarter than I am.


----------



## vellocet

That's not what I asked. Never mind


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I was not talking about CWI. I never go there. I never read there. I have nothing useful to offer those people.


most of the infidelity rants are in the CWI, now there are a few people that mistakenly post in other sections that really should be in the CWI section.
why wouldn't you have anything useful to say in the CWI?

would you tell them to go straight to divorce?

or tell the BS it is their fault because the did not have love and devotion and that is why they got cheated on?


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> How about this:
> 
> In my marriage, I tried. I watched the kids so she could have some girl time. Thought I was being an understanding husband.
> 
> Tried to keep the home fires stoked, always showed affection, only to be rejected.
> 
> So I was unhappy in my marriage. But I didn't cheat.
> 
> So if someone is going to say I am to blame for her spreading her legs for someone else....are ya also going to say that she gets to take credit for me NOT cheating?


I guess what I would say to the you before this occurred, did YOU feel cherished? Loved? Cared for? I am guessing not. Was that good enough for you? If she was rejecting you, not only did YOU not feel cherished, you can guess that she did not either. Thinking back, is there anything you could have done to try to get THERE vs just get her to not cheat. Not because you are singularly responsible, but because SOMEONE has to change the dynamic, presumably back to where it once was, a good loving place.

NNMG, the 180, dragging her ass to counseling... whatever, not sure what the answer would have been in your case.


----------



## convert

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess what I would say to the you before this occurred, did YOU feel cherished? Loved? Cared for? I am guessing not. Was that good enough for you? If she was rejecting you, not only did YOU not feel cherished, you can guess that she did not either. Thinking back, is there anything you could have done to try to get THERE vs just get her to not cheat. Not because you are singularly responsible, but because SOMEONE has to change the dynamic, presumably back to where it once was, a good loving place.
> 
> *NNMG, the 180, dragging her ass to counseling.*.. whatever, not sure what the answer would have been in your case.


the bolded part gets mentioned many times in CWI.
So you would have useful advice in CWI


----------



## TheGoodGuy

NobodySpecial said:


> It is about believing that you can be so completely cherished that you could not want to hurt your partner.


I believed both of my ex spouses felt the same way. Burned, both times.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

KingwoodKev said:


> If there is real love by both parties for each other than all things are possible. All the other bullsh*t is just the noise of life. Noise can be deafening sometimes but is always fixable. That fix is impossible, however, if *mutual* love is not there.


Quoted for truth. Bolded that word because it takes two (or all parties I guess in the case of non-monogamous) to put in the effort to make it work.


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess what I would say to the you before this occurred, did YOU feel cherished? Loved? Cared for? I am guessing not. Was that good enough for you? If she was rejecting you, not only did YOU not feel cherished, you can guess that she did not either. Thinking back, is there anything you could have done to try to get THERE vs just get her to not cheat. Not because you are singularly responsible, but because SOMEONE has to change the dynamic, presumably back to where it once was, a good loving place.
> 
> NNMG, the 180, dragging her ass to counseling... whatever, not sure what the answer would have been in your case.


Nope. What dynamic should I have changed? NOT trying to show her affection?

But again, that's not what I asked. Seems people want to lay the blame for cheating at the BS's feet, or at least part of the blame. So if that's the case, and I was unhappy, and didn't cheat, then one would have to assume she gets to take credit for my decisions as well....mainly the decision to NOT cheat.

And the answer in my case was to divorce her. Let the OM have her. And now he controls her every move. I hope she thinks it was worth it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

convert said:


> the bolded part gets mentioned many times in CWI.
> So you would have useful advice in CWI


I think you should not wait until things are "bad enough" or someone cheats to do things that make things awesome.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Nope. What dynamic should I have changed? NOT trying to show her affection?


Dunno. I don't know what the problems were. But 180, NNMG and counseling would be a place to start.



> But again, that's not what I asked. Seems people want to lay the blame for cheating at the BS's feet, or at least part of the blame. So if that's the case, and I was unhappy, and didn't cheat, then one would have to assume she gets to take credit for my decisions as well....mainly the decision to NOT cheat.
> 
> And the answer in my case was to divorce her. Let the OM have her. And now he controls her every move. I hope she thinks it was worth it.


I, personally, could give two ****s about blame. Who cares? I mean, besides you. Would you like me to say one more time to add to the several I have already said, that no one is responsible for the cheating but the cheater?

AFAIC absence of cheating does not a marriage make.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess what I would say to the you before this occurred, did YOU feel cherished? Loved? Cared for? I am guessing not. Was that good enough for you? If she was rejecting you, not only did YOU not feel cherished, you can guess that she did not either. Thinking back, is there anything you could have done to try to get THERE vs just get her to not cheat. Not because you are singularly responsible, but because SOMEONE has to change the dynamic, presumably back to where it once was, a good loving place.
> 
> NNMG, the 180, dragging her ass to counseling... whatever, not sure what the answer would have been in your case.


Preventive maintenance.


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I think you should not wait until things are "bad enough" or someone cheats to do things that make things awesome.


Or you could just add cheating as part of your "normal" relationship. Right?


----------



## samyeagar

KingwoodKev said:


> Or you could just add cheating as part of your "normal" relationship. Right?


That's what my wife did with her cheating ex-husband...still didn't fix things.


----------



## KingwoodKev

samyeagar said:


> That's what my wife did with her cheating ex-husband...still didn't fix things.


Of course. It never does. People are people no matter what.


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> Or you could just add cheating as part of your "normal" relationship. Right?


I am not sure why anyone would want to do that.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OP, what happens when you meet someone, agree on everything, feel loved, cherished, worshipped almost and so do they and this continues and then suddenly stops - no clear warning - no real reasons - just she or he decides they are not in love with you anymore - oh and by the way they have been sleeping with someone behind your back.

Does this happen ? Absolutely ? Could this have been avoided using your approach (I am not even sure what that is) ? Who knows ?

Now could you have been sensitive to warning signs as a result of some boundaries you laid down and enforced ? Probably.

Would the average Joe know what to do about it when it happens ? Probably not - hence TAM (yay)!!!


----------



## KingwoodKev

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why anyone would want to do that.


It works for some people. It worked for you.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OP and a question for you so that we are clear on the title of your thread - can you be in love with more than one person at a time (as in your quad relationship) and have your lovers not be jealous of each other ?


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> I, personally, could give two ****s about blame. Who cares?


Apparently, many a WS on this site. And BS's too when the blame is pushed off on them.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Preventive maintenance.


Nah, people should work on their marriage because, well, they should.

They shouldn't do it as "Preventive maintenance". This would be working on things to keep someone from cheating. If that is the reason, why bother?

You do it for the marriage, you do it for your spouse, you do it for yourself.

You don't do it to keep a cheater at bay.

I don't like the term "preventive maintenance" for precisely that reason. How about "Ongoing Care"?


----------



## tacoma

KingwoodKev said:


> It works for some people. It worked for you.


Are you equating a poly relationship with infidelity?


----------



## NobodySpecial

KingwoodKev said:


> It works for some people. It worked for you.


You really don't know how to read, do you?


----------



## NobodySpecial

tacoma said:


> Are you equating a poly relationship with infidelity?


Messing up the timeline and the circumstances for sure.


----------



## jld

I think it's hard sometimes to accept that there may have been things that we could've done to prevent the dissolution of a relationship.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I think it's hard sometimes to accept that there may have been things that we could've done to prevent the dissolution of a relationship.


"So why are you tending to the relationship?"

"I'm doing it for preventive maintenance"

See how silly that sounds?

You tend to the relationship for love and caring. NOT to prevent anything.


----------



## sinnister

vellocet said:


> "So why are you tending to the relationship?"
> 
> "I'm doing it for preventive maintenance"
> 
> See how silly that sounds?
> 
> You tend to the relationship for love and caring. NOT to prevent anything.


Sounds more like JLD meant tending to the marriage is for love and caring but preventive maintenance is a by-product of that attentiveness and not the original purpose.

Personally - I too believe that there are a lot of suggestions towards cheating that sometimes don't warrant them.

In my own situation, I'm at the point where I'm even suspecting my own wife of cheating even though pretty much all of her time is accounted for. There's now that sliver of doubt in my mind that because she's been so cold and devoid of intimacy that she is giving that part of herself to someone else. After all, who knows what she does on her lunch break. And is she really going to the gym? How do I know for certain?

When people have issues in their marriage is easy to plant seeds of doubt in their minds because in most cases trust has already been eroded. And this place can be a little bit dangerous in influencing even the strongest of minds and the surest of spouses.


----------



## vellocet

sinister, you have to keep in mind who wrote it, and what their comments in the past have been.

I don't think she meant it that way. She has always been on the "tend to the relationship to keep someone from cheating" bandwagon. 

Remember, this is a woman who doesn't recommend a woman take back a cheating husband, but recommends a husband take back a cheating wife, humble himself to her and meet her needs so she won't cheat again....with a side order of kissing her feet.


----------



## jld

When you seek to understand your spouse, and proactively care for them, in a way that they define as caring, I think you are taking a step to prevent cheating, intentional or not.


----------



## KingwoodKev

sinnister said:


> Sounds more like JLD meant tending to the marriage is for love and caring but preventive maintenance is a by-product of that attentiveness and not the original purpose.
> 
> Personally - I too believe that there are a lot of suggestions towards cheating that sometimes don't warrant them.
> 
> In my own situation, I'm at the point where I'm even suspecting my own wife of cheating even though pretty much all of her time is accounted for. There's now that sliver of doubt in my mind that because she's been so cold and devoid of intimacy that she is giving that part of herself to someone else. After all, who knows what she does on her lunch break. And is she really going to the gym? How do I know for certain?
> 
> When people have issues in their marriage is easy to plant seeds of doubt in their minds because in most cases trust has already been eroded. And this place can be a little bit dangerous in influencing even the strongest of minds and the surest of spouses.


You can track her phone be it iPhone or Android o/s. Nothing wrong with checking if any doubts pop up. That little voice in your head telling you something is amiss was given to you by nature to alarm you when something is amiss. If you check and it's nothing then no harm done.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> When you seek to understand your spouse, and proactively care for them, in a way that they define as caring, I think you are taking a step to prevent cheating, intentional or not.


I don't disagree with that. Still shouldn't be looked at as "preventive maintenance"


----------



## KingwoodKev

vellocet said:


> I don't disagree with that. Still shouldn't be looked at as "preventive maintenance"


I agree because "preventative maintenance" implies that cheating is a viable option for a spouse not getting everything they want 100%. That's not marriage. Cheating should not be a threat to be held over one spouses. "Be the spouse I need you to be or I'll cheat." That is only something a bad person would do.


----------



## vellocet

Exactly


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

KingwoodKev said:


> I agree because "preventative maintenance" implies that cheating is a viable option for a spouse not getting everything they want 100%. That's not marriage. Cheating should not be a threat to be held over one spouses. "Be the spouse I need you to be or I'll cheat." That is only something a bad person would do.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> "So why are you tending to the relationship?"
> 
> "I'm doing it for preventive maintenance"
> 
> See how silly that sounds?
> 
> You tend to the relationship for love and caring. NOT to prevent anything.


And yet the one should -- IDEALLY -- lead to the other.


----------



## convert

sinnister said:


> Sounds more like JLD meant tending to the marriage is for love and caring but preventive maintenance is a by-product of that attentiveness and not the original purpose.
> 
> Personally - I too believe that there are a lot of suggestions towards cheating that sometimes don't warrant them.
> 
> In my own situation, I'm at the point where I'm even suspecting my own wife of cheating even though pretty much all of her time is accounted for. There's now that sliver of doubt in my mind that because she's been so cold and devoid of intimacy that she is giving that part of herself to someone else. After all, who knows what she does on her lunch break. And is she really going to the gym? How do I know for certain?
> 
> When people have issues in their marriage is easy to plant seeds of doubt in their minds because in most cases trust has already been eroded. And this place can be a little bit dangerous in influencing even the strongest of minds and the surest of spouses.


Sinister you may not be giving enough love and devotion and you need to trust her.

and please don't start harping on her about boundaries


----------



## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> And yet the one should -- IDEALLY -- lead to the other.


Again, agreed. But you don't do so for "prevention". You do it because you love your spouse.

If someone asks you why you take such good care of your relationship, the proper answer should be, "because I love him/her".

Not, "so I don't get cheated on" If I have to do something primarily out of fear, no thanks.


----------



## jld

Funny. As a woman, I think fear probably undergirds many of my decisions. Nothing wrong with a little healthy fear, imo.


----------



## vellocet

I don't fear someone who is prone to use an excuse to cheat. 

I show them the door.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Funny. As a woman, I think fear probably undergirds many of my decisions. Nothing wrong with a little healthy fear, imo.


It's true of men as well, even those that fail to recognize it.

Or refuse to admit it.

ETA: To be clear, I'm not talking to an ever-present, all-consuming fear that consumes a significant portion of one's thoughts. More like a tiny little smidge of fear that helps to drive decision-making.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

It is not exactly the same and I am not saying that. But I think when you replace cheating with hitting it shows the contradictions of trying to love someone so they don't do something to you.


----------



## convert

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> It is not exactly the same and I am not saying that. But I think when you replace cheating with hitting it shows the contradictions of trying to love someone so they don't do something to you.


not exactly the same, but some abused spouses do have the mind set, sometimes that if they would show more love and devotion they might not get hit
It sounds silly and absurd doesn't it?


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

convert said:


> not exactly the same, but some abused spouses do have the mind set, sometimes that if they would show more love and devotion they might not get hit
> It sounds silly and absurd doesn't it?


It does.

I can agree that I can contribute to making someone angry but I cannot make them hit me. To say that I need to do prevention to stop them from hitting me doesn't make sense. I can work on my marriage so I am not a ****ty spouse and making my spouse angry all the time though.


----------



## GusPolinski

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> It does.
> 
> *I can agree that I can contribute to making someone angry but I cannot make them hit me.* To say that I need to do prevention to stop them from hitting me doesn't make sense. I can work on my marriage so I am not a ****ty spouse and making my spouse angry all the time though.


(I might take some sh*t for this, and understandably so, but here goes...)

While technically true, ^this^ is an awfully simplistic POV. After all, when you KNOW -- based on past experiences, observation, etc -- that someone will react a certain way to specific stimuli, you can't claim surprise at watching them display the anticipated behavior.

Does that make the behavior right? If we're talking about abuse then the answer is obviously a very loud and emphatic "F*CK NO!!!", and any relationship so toxic that such a statement needs to be brought into consideration (much less _repeatedly_) needs to come to a very swift and unceremonious end.


----------



## vellocet

Gus, you are right......you should take some sh*t for that


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Gus, you are right......you should take some sh*t for that


Please feel free to share any thoughts that you may have w/ respect to *WHY*.


----------



## vellocet

Gus, lighten up. I was kidding.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Gus, lighten up. I was kidding.


Ah. Doh.

And no worries... that didn't raise my hackles at all. I merely thought that you might be prepared to debate, so I was inviting any comments that you might have had w/ that in mind.


----------



## vellocet

Nah, usually when someone says, "I might get sh*t for this...but" I read thinking I'm about TO give them sh*t for it.

But I was like, "Why would I give Gus sh*t about this??"


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

GusPolinski said:


> (I might take some sh*t for this, and understandably so, but here goes...)
> 
> While technically true, ^this^ is an awfully simplistic POV. After all, when you KNOW -- based on past experiences, observation, etc -- that someone will react a certain way to specific stimuli, you can't claim surprise at watching them display the anticipated behavior.
> 
> Does that make the behavior right? If we're talking about abuse then the answer is obviously a very loud and emphatic "F*CK NO!!!", and any relationship so toxic that such a statement needs to be brought into consideration (much less _repeatedly_) needs to come to a very swift and unceremonious end.


I get that and agree.

WAY away from cheating and everything and right to relationships with physical abuse. 

From someone outside a relationship that's easy to say and do. From someone inside a relationship there are a lot of steps leading up to it psychologically that lead a person to get to that step. I'm not disagreeing with you, but in abusive situations people are going to either get out or get adjusted to it no matter how high the abuse goes. The manipulative person may know that a previously abused person will have a higher tolerance and abuse that. 

So when I see people giving the abused person this line of thinking, I understand completely, but I find it with a lack of understanding about the psychological position of the abused person.

NOT to say that you are saying that or think that Gus.

Just arguing.


----------



## convert

yes because hitting is physical abuse and cheating is mental abuse and they are different but *abuse* is still involved
and maybe if we were just a little more loving and compassionate, and devoted, and trusting it would not happen.

Does that make any sense at all?


*NO*


----------



## GusPolinski

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I get that and agree.
> 
> WAY away from cheating and everything and right to relationships with physical abuse.
> 
> From someone outside a relationship that's easy to say and do. From someone inside a relationship there are a lot of steps leading up to it psychologically that lead a person to get to that step. I'm not disagreeing with you, but in abusive situations people are going to either get out or get adjusted to it no matter how high the abuse goes. The manipulative person may know that a previously abused person will have a higher tolerance and abuse that.
> 
> So when I see people giving the abused person this line of thinking, I understand completely, but I find it with a lack of understanding about the psychological position of the abused person.
> 
> NOT to say that you are saying that or think that Gus.
> 
> Just arguing.


Hey, no arguments here. Almost everything is a matter of perspective. Descend from 50K to the trenches and you'll see more.

_And less._


----------



## altawa

I am curious how I could have prevented/am responsible for my wifes incident in the context of this thread. 

We got married. I devoted everything to her, and went to boot camp. That is when it happened, when I was in f^%$%% boot camp. 

I guess I wasn't invested enough....didnt do enough, from 2000 miles away, after I devoted everything to her.

What a bastard.


----------



## convert

so on dday I had the presence of mind to get out of the house and take a 6 hour drive so I would not be physically violent with my wayward wife, *but she did not have the presence of mind to inflict mental abuse by cheating on me* because I DID NOT GIVE HER ENOUGH LOVE AND DEVOTION AND TRUST and what ever


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

I see this thread is very triggering. 

I am so sorry. 

It was not your fault.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Do they blame themselves, convert? I never noticed that.


It's really common in my observation. And when my wife cheated it was a really major thing to deal with. "I did the best I could, I gave everything I could, and it wasn't enough!" You really go through feelings of worthlessness.

That's why when you talk about men being confident in this context, I take issue with it. You're really reinforcing the "not good enough" notion.

I think a lot of us seek self affirmation through our relationships. The most lasting change in my life post affair was to find affirmation in who I was, not what my wife thought of me.


----------



## Wazza

vellocet said:


> I don't fear someone who is prone to use an excuse to cheat.


I hope this is ok...it's a pretty personal question, but it goes directly to what you said.

Does your decision not to commit to another relationship reflect fear that what happened last time will happen again?

I know I struggle with that sometimes. Once you have been cheated on, you know its real, it can happen, and you know it could happen again. I found that very hard to process emotionally. Still do sometimes.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Wazza said:


> It's really common in my observation. And when my wife cheated it was a really major thing to deal with. "I did the best I could, I gave everything I could, and it wasn't enough!" You really go through feelings of worthlessness.
> 
> That's why when you talk about men being confident in this context, I take issue with it. You're really reinforcing the "not good enough" notion.
> 
> I think a lot of us seek self affirmation through our relationships. The most lasting change in my life post affair was to find affirmation in who I was, not what my wife thought of me.


Honestly, this is where my depression, and self-loathing come from. I blame myself for many things. I do not blame myself for her cheating. 

You cannot love someone enough that they won't cheat. In other words, if I want to do something, I will find the justifications to allow me to cross that personal boundary, or I will not.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> That's why when you talk about men being confident in this context, I take issue with it. You're really reinforcing the "not good enough" notion. Please explain. This is not clear to me.
> 
> The goal is to empower them by helping them see where they have influence, so they can use that influence, and not feel powerless.
> 
> I think a lot of us seek self affirmation through our relationships. The most lasting change in my life post affair was to find affirmation in who I was, not what my wife thought of me. Sounds healthy. You need to be strong in yourself to be strong in your relationship, I think.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> That's why when you talk about men being confident in this context, I take issue with it. You're really reinforcing the "not good enough" notion. Please explain. This is not clear to me.
> 
> The goal is to empower them by helping them see where they have influence, so they can use that influence, and not feel powerless.


You might be intending to give BSes a tool to fight back, but what you are actually doing is reinforcing all the negative self images they have. 

When you are being cheated on, you have the power to stay and plead and watch your wife in love and lust with someone else, or to end the marriage. That's it. And maybe you did everything you could, and it is your spouse's problem. And then some well meaning person on the internet says "The problem is you. If you were different this wouldn't have happened"....

you can't comprehend it till it happens to you.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> You might be intending to give BSes a tool to fight back, but what you are actually doing is reinforcing all the negative self images they have.
> 
> When you are being cheated on, you have the power to stay and plead and watch your wife in love and lust with someone else, or to end the marriage. That's it. And maybe you did everything you could, and it is your spouse's problem. And then some well meaning person on the internet says "The problem is you. If you were different this wouldn't have happened"....
> 
> you can't comprehend it till it happens to you.


Maybe not. But I have been in other situations where, once I looked at what I *could* do to influence my situation, instead of just feeling there was _nothing_ I could do, I felt empowered and hopeful.

And I do think there is an option besides begging or leaving.

http://www.familyministries.com/Reconciling_husbands.htm


----------



## vellocet

Wazza said:


> I hope this is ok...it's a pretty personal question, but it goes directly to what you said.
> 
> Does your decision not to commit to another relationship reflect fear that what happened last time will happen again?


Fear? No.

Just tired of the bullsh*t and me viewing relationships as no longer worth it? Yes.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Maybe not. But I have been in other situations where, once I looked at what I *could* do to influence my situation, instead of just feeling there was _nothing_ I could do, I felt empowered and hopeful.
> 
> And I do think there is an option besides begging or leaving.
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


How many BS's have told you that link makes sense to them?


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> How many BS's have told you that link makes sense to them?


One. Stillkindofhopefull. I have only posted it a few times, though.

And there are way more people who read than post. It may be helping them.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> One. Stillkindofhopefull. I have only posted it a few times, though.
> 
> And there are way more people who read than post. It may be helping them.


After 25 years it angers and offends me. OK, if it helps someone else.... I guess you have to trade off the people you help agains the people you hurt.

And remember I count myself as successfully reconciled. (And by the way I am a Christian).


----------



## jld

Wazza, when I feel that way, it is usually because what I have read has touched deeper feelings inside of me.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> Maybe not. But I have been in other situations where, once I looked at what I *could* do to influence my situation, instead of just feeling there was _nothing_ I could do, I felt empowered and hopeful.
> 
> And I do think there is an option besides begging or leaving.
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


What about the wives, like my ex-wife, who are just plain selfish. They want all the things they get from the marriage, and ALSO all of the things that they SHOULD give up when they get married. My ex wanted the husband who was a provider, kids, house, nice car, but when she wasn't home, she wanted to be the single party girl. She wanted boyfriends. Etc etc. It was never that the relationship was lacking something....it was HER that was lacking something.

JLD, I respect a lot of what you are saying, but the mistake I think you make is that you apply your philosophies with a broad brush. I think you're philosophies don't apply to a large number of the relationships that struggle with issues such as infidelity.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Dad&Hubby said:


> What about the wives, like my ex-wife, who are just plain selfish. They want all the things they get from the marriage, and ALSO all of the things that they SHOULD give up when they get married. *My ex wanted the husband who was a provider, kids, house, nice car, but when she wasn't home, she wanted to be the single party girl. She wanted boyfriends.* Etc etc. It was never that the relationship was lacking something....it was HER that was lacking something.
> 
> JLD, I respect a lot of what you are saying, but the mistake I think you make is that you apply your philosophies with a broad brush. I think you're philosophies don't apply to a large number of the relationships that struggle with issues such as infidelity.



That's why she's your ex. I'd never tolerate a spouse like that either. She'll find some guy who will. Personally I think that guy is a chump but there are a lot of chumps in the world. Hopefully you found someone more compatible for you.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Wazza, when I feel that way, it is usually because what I have read has touched deeper feelings inside of me.


I don't understand this comment.

Edit to add : Oh, ok you are saying your link creates strong feelings because it touches something deep in me, by implication something that I need to deal with? Is that your point?


----------



## jld

That would be my guess.


----------



## altawa

Wazza said:


> I don't understand this comment.
> 
> Edit to add : Oh, ok you are saying your link creates strong feelings because it touches something deep in me, by implication something that I need to deal with? Is that your point?


Yep. That is what I got from that. You are offended because something in that link points to something you did wrong.


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> Wazza, respectfully, I am curious as to why you feel this way about the article jld posted. Or are you offended by jld's viewpoint in general?


Zanne, let me answer your question with a question. You've had a rough couple of years. Would you agree that some of it was due to your own poor choices but there were a whole lot of factors at play?

And for bonus points, was it hurtful or helpful when some posters (e.g. Wilderness) told you it was all your fault and that if you just changed everything would be peachy?

How did that make you feel?


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> That would be my guess.


Agree to disagree. You haven't experienced it. I can't explain colour to a blind person.

Sorry.

I hope the article helps more people than it hurts. For their sake.


----------



## GusPolinski

Oh Lord. Now there are two of them.


----------



## convert

keep in mind Gus is trying to be funny

I think


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> *It depends how close to the truth they were and how ready I was to hear it. *
> 
> Wilderness was on one end of the spectrum and verged on being utterly unhelpful here. I guess that's why he's banned.
> 
> The general consensus on TAM is that the WS does all the heavy lifting in R. Is that why you had such a strong reaction to that article?


When your thread was more active there was a balance of confronting you with wrong things you were doing while at the same time trying to be supportive, not attacking. You were doing some wrong things but there were also problems in your situation that were beyond your control. 

My wife's affair was the same. I think I see how it happened, and I think it was probably inevitable, because of faults in her that she didn't realise she had until the affair rubbed her face in them. 

In the case where a couple are having general relationship issues because neither gender understands the other's perspective, the article might be useful. As JLD put it...



jld said:


> I think it's hard sometimes to accept that there may have been things that we could've done to prevent the dissolution of a relationship.


But then Convert said....



convert said:


> *In the CWI section we are COPING WITH INFIDELITY. *The affair has to be or should be addressed and stopped first before R can begin then the notion of building loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness can be addressed.
> 
> if we tell BS to do that when there is infidelity involved it is "nice -ing" the wayward spouse back and it does not work most of the time.
> or if we tell the BS that there would have not been infidelity if he or she would have built loving bonds, caring and emotional closeness, although maybe truful it does not help them at that stage, *most of them already blame them selves for the cheating*


This is the other dimension. The woman you love has just struck the worst blow to your self esteem that she can. The pain is indescribable. And I don't think JLD gets that.



jld said:


> Do they blame themselves, convert? I never noticed that.


How can someone who has not noticed such a basic and common theme claim to have any insight to the nature of the problem?


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> For the record, I did not say that I agreed with the message in that article. I was curious about Wazza's strong reaction, especially so many years into R.


The strength of reaction comes from the pain of certain memories, and empathising with others who are where I was 25 years ago. 

A couple of sample posts from another thread I am following, I can pull out many many more...



kwood said:


> I also asked her to be honest about how she feels aboutme witch is a dumb question because she has pretty much showin me how she feels. She also said i did not make her feel loved or wanted and all she was is the maid around the house.but i work 65-70 hours a week i was tired wheni came home so i guess i did not help out to much around the house/she has all kinds of reasons she did what she did but i dont think any was good enough to cheat on me 3 times


kwood's wife has had a lover since 2008, and has just walked out on him and the kids. And it's his fault....



kwood said:


> I think the worts is if I had been a better husband this would have never happened .I have a lot of guilt.but I no I did my best


Yes, fairly or not we blame ourselves.


----------



## altawa

Wazza said:


> When your thread was more active there was a balance of confronting you with wrong things you were doing while at the same time trying to be supportive, not attacking. You were doing some wrong things but there were also problems in your situation that were beyond your control.
> 
> My wife's affair was the same. I think I see how it happened, and I think it was probably inevitable, because of faults in her that she didn't realise she had until the affair rubbed her face in them.
> 
> In the case where a couple are having general relationship issues because neither gender understands the other's perspective, the article might be useful. As JLD put it...
> 
> 
> 
> But then Convert said....
> 
> 
> 
> This is the other dimension. The woman you love has just struck the worst blow to your self esteem that she can. The pain is indescribable. And I don't think JLD gets that.
> 
> 
> 
> How can someone who has not noticed such a basic and common theme claim to have any insight to the nature of the problem?


QFT.


----------



## altawa

FWIW, I read that article and it is COMPLETELY offensive. I hope to god it is never posted for anybody as actual advice.


----------



## Horizon

Zouz said:


> Just to confirm ,
> do you deny her at certain times , accordingly she cheat with Vib?


Never denied her in nearly 20 years - ever! She rejected me physically before and after cheating. Her use of the Vib just confirmed that she was most definitely sexual - just not with me.


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> I see your point. I will say there is standard advice given in CWI which rarely waivers. There are different approaches on other sites so that's interesting. I think jld was offering an alternative path and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's no surprise to me that it doesn't go over well here.
> 
> BTW, when I read the article, I tried to imagine whether any of those tactics would have made a difference to me because I do identify with the author's thoughts about a woman's hardened heart. For me, no, it would take far more than human efforts to soften this heart towards my husband. I also don't think it applies well to infidelity and that was even stated at the beginning.
> 
> I think jld should carefully consider the context of a situation before posting that article again. Perhaps it could be helpful to a few, but more likely it will offend here because of the aforementioned attitude and stock advice doled out in CWI.


Good advice in some contexts but not applicable to infidelity....I can agree with that. That is why I don't like it being introduced in this context. 

I need to say...I don't subscribe to the stock advice here. If i saw things that way I wouldn't be married now. I actually agree strongly with some of the early posts in this thread about all that.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think the article has a lot of good points. I think the premise that women are so weak and unable to protect themselves is incorrect. I think it is true that a man would have to at least insinuate the infidelity was his fault for his wife to even start to soften her hardened, or embittered, or vengeful heart. This isn't true in all women, however, the vast majority seem to fit. There are many things that seem to be missing in the article that have to happen before a BH could bring himself to honestly make these claims from a strong position. I don't think those were addressed. It doesn't make any claims of responsibility of the WW. It completely ignores the pain of the husband and it's cause. If a man could do this and maintain the suggested strong side of the relationship, he would have to really not care too much about his wife's opinions. That's my guess.


----------



## jld

If you go to the main page of that website, there is a sidebar article about what to consider if your wife has been unfaithful. It seems he has been running his ministry for a while, so he has surely had some degree of success with his method.

His view may not be the same as that of CWI, but that does not mean it is not valid. Stillkindofhopefull made specific mention of how helpful that article was, and the subsequent writing of his letter, in his wife's willingness to consider reconciliation.


----------



## NextTimeAround

convert said:


> not exactly the same, but some abused spouses do have the mind set, sometimes that if they would show more love and devotion they might not get hit
> It sounds silly and absurd doesn't it?


Maybe this is learned from having physically abusive husbands.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> If you go to the main page of that website, there is a sidebar article about what to consider if your wife has been unfaithful. It seems he has been running his ministry for a while, so he has surely had some degree of success with his method.
> 
> His view may not be the same as that of CWI, but that does not mean it is not valid. Stillkindofhopefull made specific mention of how helpful that article was, and the subsequent writing of his letter, in his wife's willingness to consider reconciliation.


Well I would dig deeper before donating cash, but for now let's assume he's legitimate. 

While I don't agree with everything he writes in the case of adultery, its much closer to the mark. Let me use his words to make my point again.



> It is devastating for a man to hear his wife say that their marriage is over......hits them like a ton of bricks.......


This is what I have been trying to say to you. I have been trying to convey the devastation. 

But where it really gets interesting


> The vast majority of the time a woman wasn't swept off her feet by a guy more handsome than her husband. She was starving for worth or security and welcomed it from a guy who made her feel significant, valuable, or protected.


What happened in my case, and seems to have happened in many cases I know of, is that a wife got bored with the realities of life, and the other man is/was an escape. I was busy working long hours to provide a financial future in a way we had agreed as a couple (and it was her choice, not the path I wanted!) while loverboy lived at home with mum and dad, had no responsibilities and few demands on his time. He represented an escape. She didn't understand her sexuality. He also represented an object of lust.

All of this at a time when she was suffering post natal depression.

If I didn't take the course we had agreed, I was lazy and a bad provider. If I did, I was neglecting her. No win.

So where I would take issue with what Reb Bradley wrote here is that, even if the woman is dissatisfied, its not always clear how much was the husband's neglect vs her impossibly high standards.

The irony is, I agree with you about the need for the guy to rebuild confidence in himself in this situation, though I think its for his sake, not hers.

Does this all just show that I still have issues from a 25 year old affair? Well it still hurts sometimes. I think I understand it and have a reasonably detached view of what happened, but if my judgement is distorted then I wouldn't know, right?


----------



## NextTimeAround

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe this is learned from having physically abusive husbands.


Actually,I meant to write "parents" not "husbands."


----------



## 2ntnuf

Wazza said:


> Well I would dig deeper before donating cash, but for now let's assume he's legitimate.
> 
> While I don't agree with everything he writes in the case of adultery, its much closer to the mark. Let me use his words to make my point again.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I have been trying to say to you. I have been trying to convey the devastation.
> 
> But where it really gets interesting
> 
> What happened in my case, and seems to have happened in many cases I know of, is that a wife got bored with the realities of life, and the other man is/was an escape. I was busy working long hours to provide a financial future in a way we had agreed as a couple (and it was her choice, not the path I wanted!) while loverboy lived at home with mum and dad, had no responsibilities and few demands on his time. He represented an escape. She didn't understand her sexuality. He also represented an object of lust.
> 
> All of this at a time when she was suffering post natal depression.
> 
> If I didn't take the course we had agreed, I was lazy and a bad provider. If I did, I was neglecting her. No win.
> 
> So where I would take issue with what Reb Bradley wrote here is that, even if the woman is dissatisfied, its not always clear how much was the husband's neglect vs her impossibly high standards.
> 
> The irony is, I agree with you about the need for the guy to rebuild confidence in himself in this situation, though I think its for his sake, not hers.
> 
> Does this all just show that I still have issues from a 25 year old affair? Well it still hurts sometimes. I think I understand it and have a reasonably detached view of what happened, but if my judgement is distorted then I wouldn't know, right?


Reads like your wife had no clue at all what she wanted and just read you the script to make most marriages seem ideal. It was the exact picture you had in your head and she did that so you two would not argue. That is not to say that you were, but more to say that she was so confused about who she was, she couldn't even defend her thoughts. She wasn't resigned to her position, but she knew you were. 

What is sad is, I believe this happens quite often and is a matter of women having more choices to do almost anything they want and not really having any idea of how to find out what they want, except to make some choices which may or may not be right for them, but they have to try. 

Once they figure that out, if they want to come back, they don't understand that it's too late, because they were just having some fun and living. What's wrong with that? If their husband loves them, he'd want them to be happy and be sure of their commitment. 

At issue for me is, they were supposed to do that before they accepted the proposal, but that's another story that deals with being a princess and having someone fall at their feet, blah blah blah. puuuuuke....


----------



## jld

Wazza, my son has had cancer twice. He just celebrated his 16th birthday a few days ago. His doctor told us he has a 25% chance of making it to 18. Why do you think I know nothing of devastation?

In my son's case, we can only watch and hope. In the case of infidelity, much more is possible. 

My whole point in what I say to people, particularly men, is that you have agency. You are not powerless. You are not like my son, or my husband and I, simply at the mercy of his cancer. You can act to very possibly change things.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I'm so sorry for you, your son and family jld. 

I have something to say about what you posted, but I think it would be impossible to relate it without hurting your feelings. I don't want to do that. Let's just say, it's different. 

My mother died a slow debilitating death and I could not stand to see it happen with all of what I went through with my second marriage failing. It was different for me. That's all I'll say. I know he is your son and that is different from what I experienced. They are both different from infidelity, separation and divorce.


----------



## altawa

jld said:


> Wazza, my son has had cancer twice. He just celebrated his 16th birthday a few days ago. His doctor told us he has a 25% chance of making it to 18. Why do you think I know nothing of devastation?
> 
> In my son's case, we can only watch and hope. In the case of infidelity, much more is possible.
> 
> My whole point in what I say to people, particularly men, is that you have agency. You are not powerless. You are not like my son, or my husband and I, simply at the mercy of his cancer. You can act to very possibly change things.


That you know of one thing does not mean you know of/are an expert in another. The two situations are mutually exclusive.


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## jld

Zanne, do you think your husband would be willing to read that article?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Just wondering. I found it one day and felt inspired to share it with a poster. He really appreciated it. I think he did initially feel convicted, but ended up grateful for my sharing it.

I think we do not really know who we may end up helping when we pass along what we find interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Well, the author says in that sidebar article dealing with a wife's affair that a husband should write her a letter just the same way as if she had not been unfaithful. Here is an excerpt from that article:

_It is never a man's fault if his wife is unfaithful. He is never to blame for her choices to sin. However, he must keep in mind that it may have been his neglect that starved her for security and made her vulnerable to adultery. 

When a woman decides to leave her husband, she is escaping from pain. She was dedicated to the marriage and hung in there for a long time before she felt she could bear no more. She had been looking to her husband for value and significance, but came away feeling neglected and worthless. 

The vast majority of the time a woman wasn't swept off her feet by a guy more handsome than her husband. She was starving for worth or security and welcomed it from a guy who made her feel significant, valuable, or protected._

My husband is a Christian man and found the article very good, not offensive at all. I think we just do not know how a person will react unless we try. My opinion, anyway.

And I think you are showing a great deal of empathy towards your husband by really delving into how his feelings have been hurt, too.


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## altawa

jld said:


> Well, the author says in that sidebar article dealing with a wife's affair that a husband should write her a letter just the same way as if she had not been unfaithful. Here is an excerpt from that article:
> 
> _It is never a man's fault if his wife is unfaithful. He is never to blame for her choices to sin. However, he must keep in mind that it may have been his neglect that starved her for security and made her vulnerable to adultery.
> 
> When a woman decides to leave her husband, she is escaping from pain. She was dedicated to the marriage and hung in there for a long time before she felt she could bear no more. She had been looking to her husband for value and significance, but came away feeling neglected and worthless.
> 
> The vast majority of the time a woman wasn't swept off her feet by a guy more handsome than her husband. She was starving for worth or security and welcomed it from a guy who made her feel significant, valuable, or protected._
> 
> My husband is a Christian man and found the article very good, not offensive at all. I think we just do not know how a person will react unless we try. My opinion, anyway.
> 
> And I think you are showing a great deal of empathy towards your husband by really delving into how his feelings have been hurt, too.


The quotes you posted are nothing more than cop outs and excuses. More blameshifting back to the BS that it is his fault.

Nowhere in that whole article does it ever call out the WW, just the BH. I am of the belief that you know that, and since it coincides with your beliefs, that is why you choose to post it and act like it is the end all, be all solution. Truth is, it is the solution in a miniscule percentage of cases, at best. And I would say never in cases of infidelity. That article is complete propaganda......man hating propaganda.


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## jld

Zanne said:


> Good points in that article as well about the woman's perspective. I've always had a weakness towards men who I feel are protectors.
> 
> It's just that I think most people, Christian or not, would struggle with the concepts in that article. As Wazza mentioned, the self esteem of the BS is at an all time low.* And now they need to focus on all of the unfulfilled needs of the person who hurt them the most??*
> 
> Thank you for acknowledging my empathy toward my husband. It waivers. I'm actually more focused on OMW. We all play our parts in this mess. I'm interested in healing and closure.


Well, Still's pride undoubtedly took a hit when he read that article. But he wrote a letter, and now his wife is willing to attempt reconciliation. She noted the heartfelt letter he wrote as a key part of that.

I understand a man is hurt when his wife leaves him. But my husband would say his pride is hurt as well as his feelings.

I think for Christian men, it would be important to be brutally honest with themselves about that pride, and how it may interfere with their ability to forgive, and to ask forgiveness. 

And as far as the bolded, is that not the example of Jesus?


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## convert

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe this is learned from having physically abusive husbands.


yes
or physically and/or mentally abusive wives


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## NextTimeAround

convert said:


> yes
> or physically and/or mentally abusive wives



I meant to write "physically abusive parents."

Sorry about that. 

I would imagine that some people probably never grew out of the "my parents hit me because they loved me" stage.


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## Wazza

2ntnuf said:


> Reads like your wife had no clue at all what she wanted and just read you the script to make most marriages seem ideal. It was the exact picture you had in your head and she did that so you two would not argue. That is not to say that you were, but more to say that she was so confused about who she was, she couldn't even defend her thoughts. She wasn't resigned to her position, but she knew you were.
> 
> What is sad is, I believe this happens quite often and is a matter of women having more choices to do almost anything they want and not really having any idea of how to find out what they want, except to make some choices which may or may not be right for them, but they have to try.
> 
> Once they figure that out, if they want to come back, they don't understand that it's too late, because they were just having some fun and living. What's wrong with that? If their husband loves them, he'd want them to be happy and be sure of their commitment.
> 
> At issue for me is, they were supposed to do that before they accepted the proposal, but that's another story that deals with being a princess and having someone fall at their feet, blah blah blah. puuuuuke....


She read herself the script. The journey since the affair has, in part, been getting beyond that.


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## Wazza

JLD, are you here to help others, for for some other reason? I am assuming you are here to help.

I'm telling you that the advice you want to give, in the time and manner you want to give it harmful. That is why I have spoken up.

Your husband wasn't upset by the article. Has he been cheated on?

A lot has been made of my word offended. I wish I hadn't used that word. I grieve for the men who are already suffering deeply, whose excruciating pain will sometimes be made worse if they are given bad advice. It still hurts sometimes. I suspect it always will. 

Do you want to be someone who really helps, or who, however well intentioned, rubs salt into wounds?


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## Wazza

JLD, help me out here. I went looking for StillKindOfHopeful. His first thread reads like his wife through him our after he texted an ex girlfriend. IE that she sees him as having cheated on her. He's a wayward (sort of) rather than a betrayed.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...retted-rebound-there-more-potential-left.html 

The second thread is long and I don't have time to read it now, but it looks like she threw him out and he wants to go back. Was she unfaithful in any way? If so, can you please point me to the posts that describe it, so I can understand his story better?

And if she wasn't unfaithful, do you have a single BETRAYED spouse who found the advice helpful.


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## Wazza

Zanne said:


> Well, to be honest, I find it inspiring too. But I'm reading from a woman's POV and also as a WS.
> 
> Wazza is a Christian man and I may add one with the finest character. If HE was offended by that article, I'm guessing most BS's would have the same reaction. I do think it may be appropriate for situations which do not involve infidelity or abuse. And again, the author actually states that at the beginning of the article.
> 
> Can you image how many marriages could be transformed if some husband's took that article seriously? But I just see it as being unrealistic for most people, including MY boyfriend. Respect goes both ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me take away the word offended. I regret using it. I think the article hurts, not helps, and that saddens me. 

I read similar advice at different times in my marriage, and found it useful. But not at the time of my wife's affair.


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## Wazza

jld said:


> My whole point in what I say to people, particularly men, is that you have agency. You are not powerless. You are not like my son, or my husband and I, simply at the mercy of his cancer. You can act to very possibly change things.


Last post...catching up 

The emotional lesson I learned from my wife's affair was the exact opposite. I learned that, no matter what I do, if she unilaterally decides to disregard the marriage, I cannot stop her. I did not have control. I tried. For months I tried.

Every attempt I made was met with hurtful ripostes. She was dealing, basically, with her issues, and my heart was collateral damage. Nothing I could do was right. 

The opportunity to change things came years later. At a time when, if I did not have children with her, I would have been long gone. Maybe shallow. I care about her and I helped her...but at what cost....

You haven't been through it, and you don't comprehend it. I wish so much that was true for me too. You are asking someone to be incredibly strong, and take enormous emotional risks, at a time when they are struggling just to survive. And the articles you quote basically talk about how the man didn't meet the woman's needs. They don't consider that the woman's expectations may have been unreasonable, or that she may not even want to be faithful.


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## jld

I would encourage you to read his entire thread, Wazza. It is indeed long, and does involve infidelity.


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Wazza, my son has had cancer twice. He just celebrated his 16th birthday a few days ago. His doctor told us he has a 25% chance of making it to 18. Why do you think I know nothing of devastation?
> 
> In my son's case, we can only watch and hope. In the case of infidelity, much more is possible.
> 
> My whole point in what I say to people, particularly men, is that you have agency. You are not powerless. You are not like my son, or my husband and I, simply at the mercy of his cancer. You can act to very possibly change things.


Cancer is not something that someone -- and certainly not someone that either of you loves -- did to your son.

It is instead something that happened to him.

See the difference?

That said, I'm not a parent, much less a parent whose child has or has had cancer... which is exactly why you won't see me telling anyone that is dealing or has dealt with such misfortune how they should go about doing so.


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## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Cancer is not something that someone -- and certainly not someone that either of you loves -- did to your son.
> 
> It is instead something that happened to him.
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> That said, I'm not a parent, much less a parent whose child has or has had cancer... which is exactly why you won't see me telling anyone that is dealing or has dealt with such misfortune how they should go about doing so.


I have gotten helpful advice from all kinds of people in all kinds of areas, Gus. And sometimes, the advice that initially knicked my pride proved very helpful at a later point.

I think you mentioned that in the three months before your wife's affairs were discovered, you had been home only 8 days. From that post, it seemed you thought that made her vulnerable to unhealthy attention from other men. 

The way I read that, you were trying to figure out how you could help to lessen her vulnerability in the future. And your example undoubtedly gave food for thought to other men.


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I have gotten helpful advice from all kinds of people in all kinds of areas, Gus. And sometimes, the advice that initially knicked my pride proved very helpful at a later point.
> 
> I think you mentioned that in the three months before your wife's affairs were discovered, you had been home only 8 days. From that post, it seemed you thought that made her vulnerable to unhealthy attention from other men.
> 
> The way I read that, you were trying to figure out how you could help to lessen her vulnerability in the future. And your example undoubtedly gave food for thought to other men.


Uhhh... no. You're confusing me with someone else.

I've only ever been away from home for work, and only ever Monday - Friday at the most, which means that -- at a bare minimum -- I'd have been home for something like 24 days out of those 3 months.

And that's assuming that I'd been on the road for the entire 3 months preceding D-Day, which I don't believe was the case.


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## jld

Oh, it must have been someone else, then. I thought it was very insightful. The man was looking at where things had gone wrong, in order to make conditions more favorable for the future. Proactive.


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## jld

Wazza said:


> JLD, help me out here. I went looking for StillKindOfHopeful.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/252594-i-came-back-home-she-didnt-like-its-better-now-im-still-kind-hopeful.html#post11973601


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## Wazza

From Still's thread



jld said:


> I hear you. I think she feels totally disrespected.


Turnera puts your post into perfect context with her reply.



turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> For [email protected]!
> 
> Being CAUGHT CHEATING?!


A question for you JLD, under what circumstances should someone divorce a cheating spouse? Ever?


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## altawa

jld said:


> Oh, it must have been someone else, then. I thought it was very insightful. The man was looking at where things had gone wrong, in order to make conditions more favorable for the future. Proactive.


Step one should probably have been finding a new wife that wouldn't cheat on him.


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## Wazza

On reflection, I will also single out another post from Still's thread:



Duguesclin said:


> What evidence? What his wife told him?
> 
> His wife may be lying and there is more going on that what she confessed. But she may be saying the truth and there is almost nothing, just a young guy having a flirt with a gal he never physically met.
> 
> Still's focus seems to be on himself and on that other guy. He has done nothing today to bring leadership to this marriage.


So was writing love letters since July, and filling in divorce papers in November when she kicked him out a harmless fantasy by Still's wife? And was it ok for a Christian minister (the object of wife's affections) to flirt with a married woman?

Duguesclin see these things and criticises Still......


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## jld

Wazza said:


> A question for you JLD, under what circumstances should someone divorce a cheating spouse? Ever?


Dug says that divorce is acceptable when it is a Win/Win for everyone involved, including the children. There are some circumstances in which everyone is going to be better off if the partners are no longer together.

I think we have to look beyond the surface to solve deep problems, Wazza. We have to look at motives, capabilities, and the level of desire for reconciliation. 

It is easy to look at things superficially and declare one person in the wrong. But to truly reconcile, to truly have peace, I think we have to look deeper.


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## jld

Wazza said:


> On reflection, I will also single out another post from Still's thread:
> 
> So was writing love letters since July, and filling in divorce papers in November when she kicked him out a harmless fantasy by Still's wife? And was it ok for a Christian minister (the object of wife's affections) to flirt with a married woman?
> 
> Duguesclin see these things and criticises Still......


Dug does not see Still as a victim. And considering the leadership Still has shown the last few months, I don't think Still considers himself a victim, either.

Still has tried to see his own hand in his situation and correct his wrongdoings. I think he knew his wife was not strong enough to do that on her own yet. So he has walked ahead and been the role model.

His reaching out to her in humility and transparency touched her heart. She is now willing to try to reconcile. 

Still wanted to keep his family together more than he wanted to protect his pride.


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## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> A question for you JLD, under what circumstances should someone divorce a cheating spouse? Ever?


If and only if (a) the BS is female and (b) the WS is male.


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## NextTimeAround

GusPolinski said:


> If and only if (a) the BS is female and (b) the WS is male.



I also can't see how divorce can be win /win ....especially with children involved.

I only see divorce as a BETTER option among less than ideal ones.



jld said:


> Dug says that divorce is acceptable when it is a Win/Win for everyone involved, including the children.


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## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> I also can't see how divorce can be win /win ....especially with children involved.
> 
> I only see divorce as a BETTER option among less than ideal ones.


I think that's the idea, that it should be rare. Every effort should be made to work out the problems first.

But sometimes it is realized that the partners cannot meet each other's needs. And then it is a kindness to both of them to be released from their vows.


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Oh, it must have been someone else, then. I thought it was very insightful. The man was looking at where things had gone wrong, in order to make conditions more favorable for the future. Proactive.


If said analysis didn't occur until _after_ infidelity had already occurred, that's more _re_active than _pro_active.

And besides, why was that guy away from home so much? Was it in order to provide for his family or was he out drinking, gambling, partying, wh*ring, etc? Some combination thereof?

Was he in regular, daily contact w/ his wife? Phone calls, texts, video chats, etc?

Look, it's great that he was able to find areas for improvement and then implement changes in order to make his marriage better and stronger. After all, sometimes a BS _has_ to do that.

But having to spend that much time away from home due to work is obviously difficult for all involved. All marriages go through times of trial, and for a WS to use time spent apart out of necessity as THE reason for infidelity would indicate that he or she is little more than an immature, petulant child... and the vast majority of people don't want a child for a spouse.

We want _husbands_ and _wives_. Partners.

Not _sons_ and _daughters_.


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## jld

GusPolinski said:


> If said analysis didn't occur until _after_ infidelity had already occurred, that's more _re_active than _pro_active.
> 
> And besides, why was that guy away from home so much? Was it in order to provide for his family or was he out drinking, gambling, partying, wh*ring, etc? Some combination thereof?
> 
> Was he in regular, daily contact w/ his wife? Phone calls, texts, video chats, etc?
> 
> *Look, it's great that he was able to find areas for improvement and then implement changes in order to make his marriage better and stronger. After all, sometimes a BS has to do that.*
> 
> But having to spend that much time away from home due to work is obviously difficult for all involved. All marriages go through times of trial, and for a WS to use time spent apart out of necessity as THE reason for infidelity would indicate that he or she is little more than an immature, petulant child... and the vast majority of people don't want a child for a spouse.
> 
> We want _husbands_ and _wives_. Partners.
> 
> Not _sons_ and _daughters_.


Again, I thought it was you who made that post, so I don't know the details.

I think the bolded is proactive behavior. Reactive, to me, would be blaming and exacting revenge.

No one is excusing infidelity. But trying to understand why it happened, and putting safeguards in place to prevent its recurrence, is just _smart_.


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> Again, I thought it was you who made that post, so I don't know the details.
> 
> I think the bolded is proactive behavior. Reactive, to me, would be blaming and exacting revenge.
> 
> No one is excusing infidelity. *But trying to understand why it happened, and putting safeguards in place to prevent its recurrence, is just smart.*


I thought that was what's meant by the expression "setting boundaries."


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## CincyBluesFan

NextTimeAround said:


> I thought that was what's meant by the expression "setting boundaries."


I think one problem is that a lot of people assume certain boundaries. I know my own boundaries are pretty traditional and so are my wife's. We never really discussed them but we're not stupid so we knew.

In 2015, however, there's a lot of crazy "relationships" out there. I was watching a show one day and these people were getting a divorce. They had an open marriage. The only rule was tell the other about everyone you screw. The guy had like 5 other women he screwed besides his wife. He went on a business trip and picked up some bar fly and screwed her. Didn't tell the wife. She found out, accused him of cheating, and is divorcing him. She was ok with the other 5 women he was screwing but not this secret one. I thought the whole thing was hilarious but that's only because I was viewing it through my own set of values. Maybe boundaries need to be explicitly stated in this "anything goes" orgy-fest we've created these days.


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## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Wazza, respectfully, I am curious as to why you feel this way about the article jld posted.


I don't know about Wazza, but she wouldn't have posted this article if the gender roles were reversed.

The article puts all the onus on the husband. Not one time did it say what the wife was to do. It was nothing but the husband cowtowing to the wife and kissing her feet.

And it didn't even touch on a wife's infidelity. But if it had, JLD would still think the man should humble himself to the cheating wife.

So again, not sure about Wazza, but that's the way I feel about the article and why JLD posted it.





> Or are you offended by jld's viewpoint in general?


Yes.


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## vellocet

jld said:


> No one is excusing infidelity.



Uh yes. You have, time and time again, excused a cheating WIFE's infidelity as being due to what the husband did or didn't do correctly in the marriage. Don't even try to deny it. I can repost your words.....again.




> But trying to understand why it happened, and putting safeguards in place to prevent its recurrence, is just _smart_.


But only for betrayed husbands who need to humble themselves in the presence of their cheating wives. This, to you, doesn't apply to betrayed wives. You recommend they not take back a cheating husband.


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## pidge70

vellocet said:


> I don't know about Wazza, but she wouldn't have posted this article if the gender roles were reversed.
> 
> The article puts all the onus on the husband. Not one time did it say what the wife was to do. It was nothing but the husband cowtowing to the wife and kissing her feet.
> 
> And it didn't even touch on a wife's infidelity. But if it had, JLD would still think the man should humble himself to the cheating wife.
> 
> So again, not sure about Wazza, but that's the way I feel about the article and why JLD posted it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.


You do realize according to her philosophy, you being offended by her says more about you than it does her. 

I personally am torn between being amused by her words and/or offended. Most of the time I just refer to my sig.


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## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> If and only if (a) the BS is female and (b) the WS is male.


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## Wazza

jld said:


> No one is excusing infidelity. But trying to understand why it happened, and putting safeguards in place to prevent its recurrence, is just _smart_.


And this is the bottom line. You don't understand. And I have watched others try to explain it to you, and you won't listen. You just come back with comments that suggest you think those of us who have been through it disagree with you because we aren't dealing with our issues.

Well, you are entitled to think that, for sure. But you seem to have this desire to help. And the tragedy is you have some good ideas that might be useful...if you could listen and learn more context. Right now the things you don't understand destroy the value of the things you do understand.

Which is why I tried to give you the missing pieces...


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## wmn1

that link posted by JLD had to be one of the biggest 'let's just blame the men' type article I've seen in a long time. Medic. It was horrible. I had to cutit off after the first three paragraphs


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## Wazza

vellocet said:


> I don't know about Wazza, but she wouldn't have posted this article if the gender roles were reversed.
> 
> The article puts all the onus on the husband. Not one time did it say what the wife was to do. It was nothing but the husband cowtowing to the wife and kissing her feet.
> 
> And it didn't even touch on a wife's infidelity. But if it had, JLD would still think the man should humble himself to the cheating wife.
> 
> So again, not sure about Wazza, but that's the way I feel about the article and why JLD posted it.


Sometimes the thesis in that article is probably right but most of the time it's more complex. For example the article focuses on the emotional needs of the woman and the sexual needs of the man. My experience is that men and women both have a combination of emotional and sexual needs that we don't fully understand, and it's the interplay between them that matters.

My wife's affair was a combination of unmet emotional needs (but on a much more complex level than JLD's simplistic mantra) and the kicking in of a sex drive she didn't understand, expect, or have any idea how to control. The article would zoom in on the emotional needs, ignore the context of them, and say it was my job as the husband to ensure they were addressed. Ignoring that sometimes you can't.

Life is so simple when you ignore the complexities.

So they article is horribly incomplete, in a way that puts the blame unthinkingly on the man.


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## vellocet

Wazza said:


> So they article is horribly incomplete, in a way that puts the blame unthinkingly on the man.


Which is why she selected it.


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## vellocet

I hope KWK comes back. But I fear another BS has been run off by the baiters.


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