# Pre-nup - She is not signing



## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

Hello,

My wife to be will not sign a pre-nup...

My fiance and I are 27 years old. We met in college and have been dating for 5+ years. I love her very much and want to be with her rest of my life. 

After we got engaged, my brother asked me to have her sign a pre-nup on the house that we own together, which was inherited from my grandmother when she passed. She has been very defensive about it and has been giving me a hard time over it. She feels like my brother doesn't like her nor trusts her etc. I feel like im stuck in the middle of this situation. I really do not want her to sign one but im not 100% decision maker on this house and its putting me in a bind. 

She feels insulted and feels my brother is setting us up for divorce. She comes from a very big and loving family with 20+ cousins and no one is divorced. She feels this is bad omen and its setting us up for failure. As much as she says I don't want anything to do wit your house, that doesn't convince my brother. He is 8 years older than me and not married. Actually been through many bad relationships, so he concentrates on work. Most of his friends are at the point where they are married and have a few kids. Some are going great, some marriages have problems. He is now dating a long time friend who was recently divorced and she really sticked it to her ex. - Making him sell family property for child support. Property that belongs to his family.

So now my brother has no trust in marriages and all he sees in divorces and marital problems. I understand my finance is upset and is about to call off this wedding from it. But on other hand, I need to also respect my bro decision as well.

I also think she doesnt want to be subject to pre-nup bc she would be only family member in her family to have to sign one. I also think its a pride thing for her.

I need some advice, thought.. anything.

Thank you.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

If she calls off the wedding what would be your next step?


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

i really dont know. I dont want to fight with my bro. He's upset she wont sign and says she is being immature


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Are you in a community property state? I live in CA & property is either separate or community in a marriage. 

I am a tax accountant. 

In CA, your home would be considered "separate property" & as such she could make no claims on it in the event of a divorce as long as you don't "co-mingle" the property (house) into the "community property" of the marriage.

This means that if you have any income (rental) and/or expenses from the house, you MUST set up a separate bank account with your name and/or your Brother's name & NEVER co-mingle the account with joint marriage money.

If you live in a common-law state, you need to check with an attorney regarding the laws.

The bottom line is she many not have to sign a pre-nup depending on the laws of your state.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's not your brothers business. Time to start making your own decisions. If your grandmother wanted him deciding then she would have left it to him solely. Do you own it as joint property or as a tenant in common? Or some other entity like a flp or family LLC? I advise you to speak with an attorney. Even in a community property state, a spouse rarely has a claim on inherited assets as long as its not commingled. Arm yourself with facts. It can be protected without a prenup. Unless you move in.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

He seems to be in the right. She should understand that its not coming from you. This is business between you and your bro. It is not about her it is about your brother understanding and accepting the reality of relationships and the fact that none of us has a crystal ball. I have a feeling she'd get over it after a while. Make sure she understands that this is business not personal. Do not allow this to create a rift between you and your bro, especially because he happens to be right.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Emerald was posting at the same time as me. But I agree with her. Just know that moving her into the house = commingling it. I'm a CPA in a community property state as well. Another option is to have a community property agreement.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's not your brothers business. Time to start making your own decisions. If your grandmother wanted him deciding then she would have left it to him solely. Do you own it as joint property or as a tenant in common? Or some other entity like a flp or family LLC? I advise you to speak with an attorney. Even in a community property state, a spouse rarely has a claim on inherited assets as long as its not commingled. Arm yourself with facts. It can be protected without a prenup. Unless you move in.


Listen to this. If a the prenup is't necessary then obviously that is the way to go.


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

I am not sure. I live in NY. We consulted an accountant and he said in the event of a divorce, she would be entitled to the appreciated value of the house from the date of marriage. So if the house is worth 800K at time of marriage and if we got divorced its worth $900, she is entitled to half of the difference. I want to get a second opinion from an estate lawyer.


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

Yes we're moving in for a few years to so we dont have to pay rent. We want to save money we'd put toward rent into buying a house of our own

forgot to mention we collect rent from two tenants 

thank you all.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I can see both POV's.

Your fiancee is a bit superstitious about this; right or wrong; people feel what they feel.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

It's kind of difficult for me to say because you two aren't married yet.

I would tell a married man that his family is now his wife, and that his brother is now extended family. His loyalty should be to his wife first, and if a compromise can't be made between the in-laws and wife, to take his wife's side.

I think you might want to play at being a mediator for a little bit longer. Although I can empathize with both your fiance and brother, I think your brother is one in the wrong. It is understandable that he would feel strongly the way he does, but it is ultimately his trust problem. In a way, it is showing that he has a issues trusting your judgment.

After you are married, you can't afford to choose your parents or siblings over your wife. If you really want to marry this girl, then choose her side if she won't budge. Your brother will always be your brother, but if your fiance walks out on you she could be gone for good. Now would be a great time for you to reevaluate if you want to get married or not.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> Yes we're moving in for a few years to so we dont have to pay rent. We want to save money we'd put toward rent into buying a house of our own
> 
> forgot to mention we collect rent from two tenants
> 
> thank you all.


oh well - that changes everything. 

You are moving in - co-mingling.

New York is an "equitable distribution" state.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

jfv said:


> He seems to be in the right.


I do not agree. 

Getting married or not is your business. Not signing a pre-nup is your joint decision, so she has a say to it. However, your brother should have no say regarding your marriage or pre-nup. 

Either like Emerald said above, you might not even need to sign a pre-nup, or there should be some legal contract where EVEN if you divorce, she cannot touch your brother's share. To go to extreme, you can sell the house, divide it in half between you and your brother, and he will never have any concern and anything to do with your life. 

Yes, as a woman, I would feel it's a bad omen. Someone having grown in a loving happy family with no divorce would have a hard time conceiving the notion of pre-nup. I would feel that's something Hollywood people do. 

In fact, I would probably walk out on this deal, since I don't want anything to do with this family. Your brother's cynicism does not need to infect everyone. Some women would not even want a single cent from their h if it comes to divorce. It can be a matter of dignity.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What is the house worth? If your share is a modest amount, say a few tens of thousands of dollars, your exposure is not too much. But if your share is a few hundreds of thousands of dollars, your exposure is pretty big.

Also, the joint ownership with your brother means he becomes part of your possible future divorce complications. I think he has good cause to want to protect himself. There may be other ways such as creating a corporation and putting only your name on your half.

I know that some people would rather die than sign a pre-nup, but it is naive to not have one when there is some significant difference in financial situation when you get married.

Since she says she has no interest in the property, would she be amenable to writing something in her own words and having it notarized and witnessed?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

DO NOT put your real estate in a corporation. Trust me. Talk that over with a CPA. Not a lawyer. That is a very bad idea. Ask your CPA what happens if you want to take it out of the corp in 10 years.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Aggie said:


> It's kind of difficult for me to say because you two aren't married yet.
> 
> I would tell a married man that his family is now his wife, and that his brother is now extended family. His loyalty should be to his wife first, and if a compromise can't be made between the in-laws and wife, to take his wife's side.
> 
> ...


A brother is not extended family. That is immediate family. Close family, like parents and siblings are as close as it gets. If you care about them, they are in your life forever, nothing should ever change that. To me, that is a love that can not be broken. I'm sorry, but she could be the greatest wife in the world, parent and sibling would be chosen over them if forced to choose. As harsh as it is, you can find a new spouse, you can't find a new parent or sibling. 
I know not everyone feels this way, but not everyone has a great relationship with these close family members. It is unconditional love.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

I had a little over $780k in personal assets (stocks, bonds and home appreciation). I considered getting a pre-nup because my younger wife by 7 years had essentially nothing but $20k in savings. My Dad was against it because it causes an unnecessary strain in the early beginnings of the relationship and since we're not talking millions of dollars, it wasn't worth doing. But my gut was telling me otherwise. I wound up not getting one signed.

14 months later we're separated. I believe she's a high-functioning BPD -- extremely controlling and critical. And guess what? Despite buying her a 2.21ct diamond ring (she said that we'd need to upgrade it at 5 years to 3cts about 4 months into our relationship), spending over $60k on her and selling my house so that we can 'move forward together', she's now trying her hardest to get every last dime out of me. She demanded that we put every penny of my pre-marital money into a joint account. After I sold the house that I spent months on to fix up and she barely lifted a finger on, she was right there when the check was cut so we could put it into "our" joint account. She even said that I need to pay her for being married to her.

Thankfully my state recognizes pre-marital assets despite co-mingling of funds. Because of the short duration, this is not an issue but had this occurred 5 years down the road, there would be issues and a huge expense in having a financial audit done.

So what I'm telling you is this: get one! Over 50% of marriages end in divorce. Over 70% of those are initiated by the wife. Don't think for one minute that you have any control over it -- you don't. 

I'm amazed that in today's feministic environment that women expect men to willingly give up potentially 50% of their assets but should the tables be reverse, that it's "good fiscal responsibility" (as told to her by her friends). This is a business decision and thankfully you have your brother's interest to support you.

Will I get married again? I hope to. Will I have her sign a pre-nup? Abso-friggin-lutely.


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## heartsdelight (Apr 2, 2012)

I have no idea about any of this financial legal stuff. Boring. From an emotional perspective, your brother is trying to protect his assets. Your wife is offended by the implication here, but I agree Thor, she should not be opposed to signing something specifically relating to the house, simply relinquishing claim to it or whatever he wants. If my husband was in the same situation I'd say whatever and sign the paper for the house. It's regarding a house, not the marriage. She might be more open to that. If not, I honestly would find it a little weird. I get how people get offended by prenups, but simply giving up claim to something seems silly. She could even throw in something about if you guys have kids then xyz, whatever. But if your brother would like some legal protection, I think you should figure out a way to make that happen that doesn't necessarily have to be a prenup.

I'm tired and this probably was circular. Whatevs.


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

thor - i like the idea. the house is worth somewhere in the 800-900K. Emerald - thanks for the advice, but i cant convince my brother. I dont believe in divorces and never even thought of it until this whole prenup thing surfaced. And she has said to me " i want nothing to do with your house". But my brother has a point. He wants to protect the house and never wants to sell or be in a court battle. 

I guess I will speak to my estate lawyer asap and find out the details.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm with your Brother on this one.

In New York, in the event of a divorce, property owned by either spouse is divided up "fairly" which may or may not be 50/50. Because you are living there, she will be "contributing" to the maintenance (including financial) of the property. Your accountant has already told you that she will be entitled to appreciation from the date of the marriage.

Now in the unlikely event of a divorce, you could argue with your Brother that she could get a portion of your share & his share would not be touched......however...

to get her share, the house would most likely have to be sold if you could not buy her out.

I think your Brother wants to keep this house in the family right?

It would be horribly unfair to your Brother for a court to order a forced sale in order to pay off your (future wife).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She can waive her rights to the house and at the same time he can leave his half to her in his will. That way she's protected if he dies but has no claim if they divorce. Just don't use joint funds for maintenance or improvement.


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## Nigel (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with your brother 100% on this.

This house is a family home and has f all to do with your future wife. She should have no claim on it whatsoever and the fact she doesn't want to sign a pre nup over it should be ringing massive alarm bells in your head.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Dude, you need a prenup for yourself. 

Maybe try talking to a lawyer to see if you can get one on only the house, and nothing else. Then offer to let her have her own lawyer review it. If she refuses, then don't get married. 

And dude, here is a little reason for why you need a prenup:
I got married with a prenup. I met with several divorce lawyers in the past couple months, and one time I asked them what I would be looking at if I got divorced without having gotten a prenup way back when. My premarital assets were: 
3 businesses worth around $250k+
Stock portfolio of $50k+ and dividends every quarter
401(k) no idea how big that is right now, probably sucks...
House 

The lawyer told me I would have to sell the house and split the profit. 
As for the businesses. She would probably get the biggest one, I would take the second biggest, and we would cut up the smallest one. 
Stock portfolio probably would've been sold entirely, and split
401(k) likely would've been given at least 50% to her, if not more. Because her work doesn't offer a 401(k) option, so with a good lawyer, she could probably get 75% if not more of mine

After doing some math, it came out to me contributing over $600k into the marriage, with her contributing maybe $50k, and I would leave with maybe, MAYBE, close to $275k, if I was lucky on various proceedings. And that would not include any spousal support I would have to pay her on my income, dividends from the stock portfolio, and profit form the businesses I own. After taking that into account, the split would've been so lopsided I would be lucky if I could afford an apartment.

But I got a prenup, and none of that is happening.


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## TroubledSexLife (Aug 23, 2012)

Juicer said:


> Dude, you need a prenup for yourself.
> 
> Maybe try talking to a lawyer to see if you can get one on only the house, and nothing else. Then offer to let her have her own lawyer review it. If she refuses, then don't get married.
> 
> ...


I don't understand. Why is it so lopsided? Why would she get the bigger business? I can understand a 50/50 split of everything but here it seems like she would be living the luxurious life and you would be dirt poor?

Please tell me you are exaggeratining the outcome...
In the end, are you deciding to divorce?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> I am not sure. I live in NY. We consulted an accountant and he said in the event of a divorce, she would be entitled to the appreciated value of the house from the date of marriage. So if the house is worth 800K at time of marriage and if we got divorced its worth $900, she is entitled to half of the difference. I want to get a second opinion from an estate lawyer.


In that case, consider asking her if she'll sign a pre-nup with an expiration date of say, 10 years. If you divorce after ten years, she's entitled but if she splits 30 months from now, she isn't entitled to it. 

By doing that, you're showing her that you aren't simply cutting her out, but are willing to meet in the middle, and it's reasonable to expect her to do the same.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

TroubledSexLife said:


> I don't understand. Why is it so lopsided? Why would she get the bigger business? I can understand a 50/50 split of everything but here it seems like she would be living the luxurious life and you would be dirt poor?
> 
> Please tell me you are exaggeratining the outcome...
> In the end, are you deciding to divorce?


Welcome to the liberal, PC-world of divorce court. Where 90% of the time, the women gets custody of the children (despite issues of drug use, etc). 

Unfortunately our courts haven't kept up with the times. More women than men are attending college. The pay gap has been reduced greatly (some approximate only a 3-5% difference once you factor in loss of income/job growth due to taking time off to raise children, selection of certain types of jobs that women prefer, etc). Courts are undoubtedly biased in favor of a woman. A pre-nup simply allows the spouse to protect his/her assets that were created PRIOR to the marriage.

To me, a woman who won't sign a pre-nup has insecurity issues and/or interested in the financial upside of marriage.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

A pre-nup doesn't mean anything if the parties stay married until death. Her freaking out over the pre-nup means she fully expects to divorce you at some point and she wants to win as much as possible when it happens. Refusal to sign it proves that she's after your money.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I don't believe in pre nups. If you don't trust your spouse then you shouldn't be getting married.

As for those that said, the brother should come before the wife, well that makes it clear to me why so many marriages fail.

Instead of getting a pre nup, invest in good pre marital counselling, and try to ensure your values are truly aligned. Talk everything to death, sex, children, money etc. 

Also be a man and make your own decisions, based on your own judgement and not your brothers.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't believe in pre nups. If you don't trust your spouse then you shouldn't be getting married.
> 
> As for those that said, the brother should come before the wife, well that makes it clear to me why so many marriages fail.
> 
> ...


I agree with your comments about the brother and making his own decisions. As for not believing in prenups....thats what all the people with no assets say.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Your brother wanted it, but what about you?

don't let family dictate your marriage, or it will be doomed.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> As for not believing in prenups....thats what all the people with no assets say.


I can see where all the people are coming from, but this statement is not true. 

I still do not believe in prenups. I would not marry anyone that wants me to sign it. I would not marry someone wanting him to sigh it. 

If I were to divorce my h now I would automatically get 1/2 of everything, we are decent enough people to deal with that amicably. And I might decide I don't even want that. It would be a LOT of assets. Why? Because some things matter more in life than assets. 

If I really divorced him (oh boy I feel like doing that RIGHT NOW) and get 1/2 of everything and someday meet someone, I would NOT want him to sign a prenup. If I cannot even get to that level of trust, I will not marry that person. 

Boy, where has all the romance gone in this world.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> Boy, where has all the romance gone in this world.


Take a look around this forum....romance for the most part has gone to hell.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Emerald said:


> In CA, your home would be considered "separate property" & as such she could make no claims on it in the event of a divorce as long as you don't "co-mingle" the property (house) into the "community property" of the marriage.


I had heard that the market value of the home at the time of marriage is protected, but not any subsequent appreciation. Thus, if the home is $200,000 at the time of marriage, and $300,000 at the time of divorce, she would have a claim for $25,000 (the $100,000 gain, divided in half for her husband's share, and that divided in half again for the equal share of the community property).

The real question here is if the only point of contention is this inheritance, why is the gf so stubborn? Does she really want to keep a claim open to a portion of his inheritance?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree with your comments about the brother and making his own decisions. As for not believing in prenups....thats what all the people with no assets say.


Actually I currently have far more assets then my fiance. No prenup required by me. I realise that I have to be very careful who I marry. And I am.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

ShawnD said:


> A pre-nup doesn't mean anything if the parties stay married until death. Her freaking out over the pre-nup means she fully expects to divorce you at some point and she wants to win as much as possible when it happens. Refusal to sign it proves that she's after your money.


Not true. I wouldn't ever sign a pre-nup if my future husband wanted one, nor do I intend to divorce my husband.

My first marriage I left and all I got was $200 a month in child support for 17 years. I did take my clothes back. Everything else was mine, but I left it all to my ex. Not all women take men for granted. 

I do not live in a millionaire setting. In fact my husband and I live very frugally for the most part.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree with your comments about the brother and making his own decisions. As for not believing in prenups....thats what all the people with no assets say.


Bingo. Those who have no assets and are marrying into significant assets, are usually the ones who are adamantly opposed to them.

Prenups are not necessary when you're just starting out in life. But as more and more folks wait to get married, they become increasingly necessary.

Why is it when a man suggests a prenup that women often think "that's so unromantic...he's already thinking of the end...etc". But when a woman does it? Well that's just good, prudent sense and he should sign one if he loves ME. Should work both ways IMO.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Not true. I wouldn't ever sign a pre-nup if my future husband wanted one, nor do I intend to divorce my husband.
> 
> My first marriage I left and all I got was $200 a month in child support for 17 years. I did take my clothes back. Everything else was mine, but I left it all to my ex. Not all women take men for granted.
> 
> I do not live in a millionaire setting. In fact my husband and I live very frugally for the most part.


Each person acts differently for their divorce. And I can only comment on my personal experience as well as family friends, colleagues, etc. -- when D is imminent or enacted, the forks come out. Often to attack one's spouse but also to shovel whatever assets their are onto their plate.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

It's simple really. If your fiancée is so dreadfully offended by a pre-nup, let her know that she is welcome to make an offer to your brother to buy out his interest in the house. Then she can contribute equally to your assets on that front and your brother no longer has reason to worry about HIS share of the property.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

ShawnD said:


> A pre-nup doesn't mean anything if the parties stay married until death. Her freaking out over the pre-nup means she fully expects to divorce you at some point and she wants to win as much as possible when it happens. Refusal to sign it proves that she's after your money.


Exactly. It's like not having a will just because you don't think you'll die before your kids grow up. Sure, you probably won't. But what if you do?


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

TroubledSexLife said:


> I don't understand. Why is it so lopsided? Why would she get the bigger business? I can understand a 50/50 split of everything but here it seems like she would be living the luxurious life and you would be dirt poor?


Well, it depends on how hard my wife would push for it. I don't think she will. But if she wanted to, And if I didn't have the prenup, she could. 
But there is no way I could ask for the bigger business. Lawyer simply told me, that won't happen (going on the lawyer's word, don't remember if he was good or bad). Ask for second, and maybe a favorable settlement on the sale of the third. 
Or I could sell them all. But the taxes would so high, that it wouldn't make sense. 

As for her getting my 401(k)...she could try and get at least 50% of it. And since she doesn't have access to one at her work, she could use that as an arguement as for why she should get more. So she could potentially get 75%+ of it. 
Honestly though, I would give it all to her. The Great Recession as it's called, destroyed my 401(k). I no longer pay into it. 

My stock portfolio is the main thing I care about. It is mostly income stocks. Not designed to be bought and sold 5x a day. She could make a claim at that. No idea how successful she would be, but she could try and go for 50% of it. 50% of all the stocks down the line.



> Please tell me you are exaggeratining the outcome...
> In the end, are you deciding to divorce?


And no. 
The property distribution might come out to a very rough 50/50, if I am lucky. 

But she could attack my source of income.

Like, we would each have 50/50 of our stocks. But I would still have to pay her alimony on my stock dividends. But I would still be paying taxes on the full amount before the alimony. 
Same with business profit. 

So after a year's work, her alimony + her money, she could earn as much as I do because my income will take a big hit, plus I pay a lot more in taxes than she does. 

But I got a prenup. Because I'm smart and thought ahead. :smthumbup:


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Your brother wanted it, but what about you?
> 
> don't let family dictate your marriage, or it will be doomed.


It's not quite that simple. My take is that the brother is worried about being forced to sell or limited in what he can do with the home. For instance, I just outlined a situation where the future wife could be due $25,000 from appreciation of the real estate.

Let's say the worst happens, they divorce, and she claims a share of the appreciation. If there's no cash available, seems like she could compel a sale or mortgaging of the home to get her share.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ive seen a lot of divorces over the last 17 years. And a lot of marriages. This fairness talk is common at the beginning and middle, but extremely rare at the actual divorce. Sure it does happen but it's really rare in my practice. And I tend to keep the wife half as a client, so maybe I'm influencing them. Not sure about that.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

DTO said:


> It's not quite that simple. My take is that the brother is worried about being forced to sell or limited in what he can do with the home. For instance, I just outlined a situation where the future wife could be due $25,000 from appreciation of the real estate.
> 
> Let's say the worst happens, they divorce, and she claims a share of the appreciation. If there's no cash available, seems like she could compel a sale or mortgaging of the home to get her share.


They should own it as a tenant in common so each share is completely severable.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

crazz0000 said:


> I dont believe in divorces and never even thought of it until this whole prenup thing surfaced. And she has said to me " i want nothing to do with your house". But my brother has a point. He wants to protect the house and never wants to sell or be in a court battle.
> .


Crazz, this site is full of divorced people that didn't believe in divorce.

Romance, love, trust and commitment are indeed wonderful and beautiful things when firmly in place at the beginning of a marriage.

Which in essence is likely why neither of you can see the point of a pre-nup.

However, romance, love, trust and commitment are not, and in most cases have not been present for some time, at the point where a marriage has come to an end.

You own property jointly with members of your family, which quite simply means they DO have a vested interest in the decisions you make which could impact them.You have a couple of options, don't move into the house, relinquish your claim to the asset prior to marrying, or she signs the pre-nup.

As others have said, if she is adamantly claiming that she doesn't want the house, then she is being both irrational and immature about her refusal to sign something that states as much.


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## leopardprint (Sep 10, 2012)

A prenup is exactly that. It is a PRE-NUPTIAL agreement between you and your spouse. Not you and your spouse and your brother. Unless he owns part of the house, I think you have to make your own choice.

Your future wife is your future family. You have to decide how you want to take care of that. A prenup is smart thought depending on your assets and business arrangements.

I did not sign one but I suggested it to my husband. He didn't want to and he has ALL the assets. The only thing I signed was an agreement for a share of his company if anything should happen to him. So, really what do you think is right for your relationship?


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

leopardprint said:


> A prenup is exactly that. It is a PRE-NUPTIAL agreement between you and your spouse. Not you and your spouse and your brother. Unless he owns part of the house, I think you have to make your own choice.
> 
> Your future wife is your future family. You have to decide how you want to take care of that. A prenup is smart thought depending on your assets and business arrangements.
> 
> I did not sign one but I suggested it to my husband. He didn't want to and he has ALL the assets. The only thing I signed was an agreement for a share of his company if anything should happen to him. So, really what do you think is right for your relationship?


The brother owns half the house. He's trying to protect his assets in case of future divorce...


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

If you brother is that worried, have him buy you out. Or buy him out. Don't let your family interfere in YOUR new family.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> I can see where all the people are coming from, but this statement is not true.
> 
> I still do not believe in prenups. I would not marry anyone that wants me to sign it. I would not marry someone wanting him to sigh it.
> 
> ...


I think the statement "I don't believe in pre-nups" is silly. 

Do you believe in reassuring your partner? 
Do you believe that circumstances and people can change? 

If someone says they don't believe in pre-nups and answer yes to either of those questions, then they're deceiving themself, someone else, or they are a hypocrite.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

50% of ALL marriages fail I personally think it would be foolish to marry without one!

what assets dose she have comming into this marriage.
have you even seen her credit card balances? dose she have unsecured debt.

If it were me I would listen to your brother.
but hey its your life hope it dosen't bite you in the a$$ if you do get married.


JMHO can't trust them as far as you can throw them!


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Before you got engaged, how were you and the brother planning on handling the future of this house? Were you both living in it? Were you planning on selling it and splitting the money? You mentioned only living there for a few years, what's going to happen to it after that?

Personally, I can see where your fiancee would be offended. Your brother's poor relationship history is clouding his feelings about this situation. If he ever marries his GF who -does- have a history of "sticking it" to her ex, is she going to have to sign a pre-nup about the house as well? Or only your wife? 

Where do you stand on future "bro decisions" about your relationship? Are you often going to let your brother dictate your relationships? I think, that's probably the biggest red flag for your fiancee, and why she's considering cancelling your wedding, that already, you are showing a lack of backbone in dealing with your family, and she might have concerns you'll often take "their side."

And yes, it's strange, because a pre-nup isn't between a husband, wife, and third party, so the fact that this is ultimately to appease your brother, makes that a little weird. Does he need to approve it's wording? Does he need to be there when she signs it?

I think for free rent, you are asking for a world of hurt. Either, you need to decide you want the house, and should calculate a rent payment based on buying out your brother's half of the house, or - you need to find somewhere else to live. This sounds like a terse situation, which only has the possibility of getting worse - what happens if he decides he wants to live there, and you need to leave?

That's the document I'd have people sign, not a pre-nup about how your wife can't have the house. You need to decide what is up with this house, and how exactly you and your brother can "share" it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

First, you should get a written agreement with your brother that he will get the same pre nuptial agreement signed prior to ever marrying.

I agree with your accountant that she would only be entitled to 50% of the appreciation even with no pre-nuptial agreement. But you should ask him or an attorney how to specifically make sure it stays "unmingled", if it is a home you are living in, paying taxes on, maintenance on etc... It may be important that you keep a separate bank account, where your income gets put into it, and you draw checks to pay the property taxes, maintenance etc from your own non joint account. You don't want the income from the property or the funds to pay the expenses on the property to come from joint accounts.

People are able to keep inheritances that are received after marriage separate, with no pre nup, so taking the steps recommened by your lawyer should work.

Your brother does not get a say really.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Hicks said:


> First, you should get a written agreement with your brother that he will get the same pre nuptial agreement signed prior to ever marrying.
> 
> I agree with your accountant that she would only be entitled to 50% of the appreciation even with no pre-nuptial agreement. But you should ask him or an attorney how to specifically make sure it stays "unmingled", if it is a home you are living in, paying taxes on, maintenance on etc... It may be important that you keep a separate bank account, where your income gets put into it, and you draw checks to pay the property taxes, maintenance etc from your own non joint account. You don't want the income from the property or the funds to pay the expenses on the property to come from joint accounts.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I think the Brother wants to keep "Grandma's house" in the family. Maybe he is emotionally attached to it as well as financial. Maybe he sees passing it along to his future children or the OP's future children. It may be a very sentimental asset to the Brother & he does not want to ever sell it.

But if a third party, in this case the fiancee gets a piece of it in the unlikely event of a divorce, the courts could force a sale so she could get her piece. Happens all of the time.

The fiancee needs to be educated about this issue. She needs to understand that the Brother does not want to ever have to sell Grandma's house (if that is the case). Again as others have pointed out, she does not have to sign a full-blown pre-nup, just a legal document that she will never make claim to this particular home.

If she really loves the OP & gets educated about this issue, there should be no "rational" reason why she wouldn't sign it.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think the statement "I don't believe in pre-nups" is silly.
> 
> Do you believe in reassuring your partner?
> Do you believe that circumstances and people can change?
> ...


Boy, so early in AM. 

Let me clarify this. (1) I believe in reassuring my (future) partner by the way I behave. So would he. 

When we got married, we were both ZERO grad students. However, I come from a rather well-off family. My mother once expressed some doubts about this future husband, who comes from a "peasant family". To make matters slightly worse, as soon as we started going out my h sold his car (which was probably $200) because he figured we would only need one car. 
I do not think there were many assets under my name, since my parents are stingy enough to protect themselves. But my mother's doubts and probing were similar to the tone of a pre-nup. Yet I had no worry. 

My h and I then went thru 20 yrs of marriage with all kinds of problems (o/w why would I be on a forum like this?) But it never crossed my mind one single time he "married me for $ or possible assets". I even had major problems when he was not making enough $. Yet I never believed he would try to get what he does not deserve if we divorce (i.e., what I was entitled to before marriage). Today we are 10 times better of than my parents. 

What I am saying is, this is personal, but for me to marry someone, I achieve a very BASIC level of trust. And I would believe in that individual to not take advantage of the finances. 

(2) Of course I believe people and circumstances change. But that does not mean a pre-nup is the only solution. In this country, it seems rather rampant to see the need of it. But there are other ways to protect your assets. I am not into law or accounting (and hate both), but even with my simple brain I am sure the assets can be put under some kind of trust. 

Obviously we Americans treat this as the smart thing, but in many other countries it's not commonly used or even heard of. For some of us civilians, it still sounds like something for the celebrities or big corp CEO's. And we are entitled to our own beliefs. 

My bottom line is, if a woman/man does not believe in pre-nup and does not want to sign, that does not mean she/he is trying to dig money up and waiting for a divorce. She/he simply DOES NOT BELIEVE IN IT. If a wedding dissolves over that, it's sad but it will have to be that way. Even though the couple is not married yet, the POLICY OF JOINT DECISION still applies. You cannot force someone to sign it. 

You can take a survey of the population in the US and see how many people do not believe in or would not sign a pre-nup. And to call all those people hypocrites is just hyperbole.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I think the Brother wants to keep "Grandma's house" in the family. Maybe he is emotionally attached to it as well as financial. Maybe he sees passing it along to his future children or the OP's future children. It may be a very sentimental asset to the Brother & he does not want to ever sell it.
> 
> But if a third party, in this case the fiancee gets a piece of it in the unlikely event of a divorce, the courts could force a sale so she could get her piece. Happens all of the time.
> 
> The fiancee needs to be educated about this issue. She needs to understand that the Brother does not want to ever have to sell Grandma's house (if that is the case). Again as others have pointed out, *she does not have to sign a full-blown pre-nup*, just a legal document that she will never make claim to this particular home.


:iagree:

This sounds totally reasonable. Yes, even I would sign that. I did not read your post before posting my reply. 
And to want to protect Grandma's house would echo with the fiancee's family value too.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> Boy, so early in AM.
> 
> Let me clarify this. (1) I believe in reassuring my (future) partner by the way I behave. So would he.
> 
> ...


I did not say they're "all" hypocrites. I said that's one of three possibilities. Your explanation is one I would classify as under fooling oneself. 

It's wonderful that you and your husband had the commitment to endure 20 years of marriage. You're certainly the exception. Few people marry with the idea that it's only going to last a couple years, but in reality, most last a couple years. That basic trust and love erode in many marriages. Ignoring this and assuming that it cannot happen is foolish.

Your views are appropriate for a 20-something year old who doesn't have assets. Your parents are the ones with wealth, and in *that* case you'd be right to feel as you did. But people with assets of any significant type are smart to say "If the worst happens, I should be able to keep what I had before I entered this marriage." It's far too easy to lose sight of assets when we get involved with someone and face difficulties. We'll sell our things, spend our money, and before long, we've invested more than we can afford and discover it was a one-way street.

You make a great point about other ways to protect assets, but in my experience that is more challenging and expensive. Setting up a trust, for instance, means appointing someone to allocate and make decisions about those assets. If you're setting it up for yourself, are you really going to tell your spouse, "Nope, honey, I've chosen someone else" and think it's going to be somehow less offensive than "sign a prenup for me?" 

A pre-nup is actually more flexible to use and costs less.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> we are decent enough people to deal with that amicably. And I might decide I don't even want that. It would be a LOT of assets. Why? Because some things matter more in life than assets.


You're only fooling yourself when you say that if you divorced you "might not even want that".

Here's a newsflash. When relationships go sour, people get angry and hurt and they don't handle things the way they would if things are all "lovey dovey".

People change.

And yes, the ones with no assets are always the ones who play martyr and say "No prenup for me, I'd never go after my spouses money!". The problem is, when the divorce happens, those same martyrs are the first ones to lawyer up and engage in expensive high conflict litigation to drain their spouses as much as possible.

It happens, all the time, even to "decent" people such as yourself.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

If the pre-nup is only about the house, then that is all that the pre-nup should say. If the fiance really doesn't care about the house, then she should have no problem signing a pre-nup that is only about the house.

If she still has problems, then I would question her motives. I would question her ability to compromise about things in the future. This would be a red flag for me in deciding if I really wanted to marry this person.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

This is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The brother is right to want his interest in an asset he and his brother own mutually before the marriage to be protected but if the fiance won't play ball there are other although more complicated ways to accomplish the same.

My wife and I have a prenup - simply for the reason that my family has done extensive estate planning and there were things in my name at the age of my marriage that really shouldn't have been - the prenup was to protect my family's hard work - not anything of mine and I think they were right. The literal way it was written was that the value of those "family" assets on the date of our marriage was excluded from a divorce proceeding but any and all appreciation on them thereafter was included. The logic being that she was a part of helping me build the assets and therefore entitled to the appreciation but not the initial value that neither she nor I had anything to do with. 

As with many other issues here on TAM some want to see things as black and white and life just isn't that way. To say "I would never marry with a prenup - or I would never marry without one" is just naive. Each and every circumstance is different and unique.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> Hello,
> 
> My wife to be will not sign a pre-nup...
> 
> ...


If she plans on being with you forever, then signing a pre-nup should not be a problem. The divorce rate is about 50%. Do you want to risk all that money on a coin-flip?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

To add to my post:
I do agree that her steadfast refusal to consider a prenup, especially if it is restricted to the house, is cause for concern.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Another POV is family harmony. I as a fiancee would want to preserve that & not cause a rift before marriage for something as simple as signing a piece of paper in regards to a house that is not mine. 

The fiancee will be getting a great deal - living rent free for a few years! If the Brother wanted to play hardball, he could charge them rent for living there but he is graciously allowing them to live there free in his 1/2 of the home.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Crazz, this site is full of divorced people that didn't believe in divorce.
> 
> Romance, love, trust and commitment are indeed wonderful and beautiful things when firmly in place at the beginning of a marriage.


Another thing to keep in mind is that the divorce is sometimes forced and there's nothing you can do to stop it. My aunt had to get divorced because her husband started to develop schizophrenia. The relationship didn't turn sour over things like money or jealousy; it just became impossible to live with him because he was going crazy. You might have complete trust that your husband or wife will not take everything, but what happens when they suffer brain damage and their presonality changes? You married the boy next door, but now you're trying to divorce someone crazier than Rush Limbaugh. 



> I think the Brother wants to keep "Grandma's house" in the family. Maybe he is emotionally attached to it as well as financial. Maybe he sees passing it along to his future children or the OP's future children. It may be a very sentimental asset to the Brother & he does not want to ever sell it.


This is an important point because the emotional value makes it a powerful bargaining tool in divorce settlements. If kids are in the picture, there's a 99% chance she would get the house and the kids. Divorce courts don't like giving houses to men.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

H and I never signed a prenup because we both had nothing. :rofl:

Anything we have now, is the both or ours.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe the BROTHER should get a prenup with the wife about the house. Honestly. The brother is worried about HIS property, and rightfully so.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that the divorce is sometimes forced and there's nothing you can do to stop it. My aunt had to get divorced because her husband started to develop schizophrenia. The relationship didn't turn sour over things like money or jealousy; it just became impossible to live with him because he was going crazy. You might have complete trust that your husband or wife will not take everything, but what happens when they suffer brain damage and their presonality changes? You married the boy next door, but now you're trying to divorce someone crazier than Rush Limbaugh.
> 
> 
> This is an important point because the emotional value makes it a powerful bargaining tool in divorce settlements. If kids are in the picture, there's a 99% chance she would get the house and the kids. Divorce courts don't like giving houses to men.


Good point about forced divorces...then forced sale of marital assets.....forced sale of "Grandma's home"..........


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

If you have any sort of significant assets it is financial suicide to not have a prenup. Don't let yourself be emotionally bullied into marrying without protecting yourself. Be wary of the following phrases and/or words:

1. If you really loved me or trusted.......
2. I don't believe in divorce.......
3. I would never do that to you.......
4. I'm offended by you asking me to.......


Look out for your best interests.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Prenups can be interesting! In my case, in a community property state(Texas), my supposedly "wealthy" STBXW had me sign off on one in order to keep a poor urchin like myself from ever laying claim to any of her or her families assets. I fastly consented!

Well, two boyfriends/affairs later, she decides that she wants a separation, has me "moved out" of the family home, and then insists that per the prenup, I owe her anywhere between 270k and 70k for my share of the expenses in the 7+ years of marriage that we had. What a shocker! Truth be known, I couldn't even offer to pay her 7k!

My attorney basically said she couldn't assess that unless she opted out of the prenup and went the "community property" route. That would be gravely disadventageous for her as it would open up most all of the assets to community property division, would also allow the court to examine who was mostly "at fault" in the relationship's demise, allow us to file for divorce under grounds of adultery, then allow us to bring both of her boyfriends in to testify for us as "hostile witnesses," something her family wouldn't really relish to see happen.

In any event, she should run, not walk away, from a prenup shoved in her face. But if the "I's" are dotted and the "T's" are crossed correctly, it could be used as a tool of financial leverage against her! 

Beware!


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

Wouldn't it be easier to just sign the house to your brother and only have him as the owner? Then you can get married without your fiance signing a prenup. (My assumption is you trust your brother.)


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

scione said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just sign the house to your brother and only have him as the owner? Then you can get married without your fiance without her signing a prenup. (My assumption is you trust your brother.)


Unfortunately that's not that simple - the IRS would view that as a gift among other things that make it more complicated. Plus trusting your brother and giving him half of an asset that was left to both of them are two different things. 

Shouldn't his fiance trust him???


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Unfortunately that's not that simple - the IRS would view that as a gift among other things that make it more complicated. Plus trusting your brother and giving him half of an asset that was left to both of them are two different things.
> 
> Shouldn't his fiance trust him???



I trust my bro And fiancé . But my brother trusts no one. He's a true business man. My fiancé wants to call off the wedding bc of this . She rather call off wedding than sign prenup ?
Does that make sense ? She feels that insulted
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Unfortunately that's not that simple - the IRS would view that as a gift among other things that make it more complicated. Plus trusting your brother and giving him half of an asset that was left to both of them are two different things.
> 
> Shouldn't his fiance trust him???


I'm not saying giving his brother half of the asset, but let his brother hold the asset until ...whenever. 

His fiance already showed that she doesn't trust him, but if he wants to be with her, I only see 3 ways:
1) Change her mind
2) F-ed it and get married
3) Move the asset to somewhere safe


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

scione said:


> I'm not saying giving his brother half of the asset, but let his brother hold the asset until ...whenever.
> 
> His fiance already showed that she doesn't trust him, but if he wants to be with her, I only see 3 ways:
> 1) Change her mind
> ...


Agreed completely. Were it me I'd have an attorney draw up a revocable trust with he and the brother as co-trustees and move the house to the trust. Laws will vary state to state but generally speaking the assets of the trust should be divorce proof. 

Of course then he'll still have to address what's really going on with her reaction. If the house is the only issue it's not an unreasonable request.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> She rather call off wedding than sign prenup ?
> Does that make sense ? She feels that insulted


If you marry her, the fight over the prenup will pale in comparison to the rest of the arguments headed your way.


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## Ano (Jun 7, 2012)

This is kind of out of your hands since you are not the 100% owner of the home. Your brother is not out of line asking of this.

Your finance would really call off the wedding over this? At the end of the day, you love each other. It confuses me why she would call off a wedding over a prenup in which your brother has every right to ask for.


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## Kimberley17 (Oct 10, 2011)

I think the fiance is being a little unreasonable. I can understand being insulted but considering it is a family house and his brother owns it too I get it. I wouldn't like signing one but I would in this case..


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

donders said:


> If you marry her, the fight over the prenup will pale in comparison to the rest of the arguments headed your way.


U are right . Bc she can be immature when it comes to important decision making. I wish you were wrong but right
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> U are right . Bc she can be immature when it comes to important decision making. I wish you were wrong but right


Its completely obvious.

The writing's on the wall.

Hold your ground on this, and even if she relents and gives you the prenup you need to seriously consider the long term ramifications of saying your vows to this woman.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

crazz0000 said:


> U are right . Bc she can be immature when it comes to important decision making. I wish you were wrong but right
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like her rejecting the pre-nup might be the best thing that ever happened to you. Letting you see how she reacts to situations. How important you and your family are to her.

She might have just giving you an easy way out of this marriage.


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## Mr steal your girl (Aug 11, 2012)

This is a difficult and complex situation. Maybe this situation can help you realize that this is not the woman for you when all is said and done.

This event might have just saved you from disaster. Plenty of fish in the sea.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Here's what I did - at the advice of my attorney. My wife didn't think it was the best thing she'd ever heard either. So I told her to go get her own attorney and get her own legal advice. I offered to pay for the attorney if that was an issue. Fortunately she had an uncle who was an attorney and he read it. His comments to her - "that's a very fair document and I would have no trouble signing it." 

Once her Uncle signed off on it, while it still wasn't her favorite thing, she had no issues with it. 

If it's a fair document there shouldn't be an issue but she may want some one other than you to tell her that which isn't unreasonable. It also makes the document work better legally if she has her own counsel and not just you telling her it's ok to sign.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> I trust my bro And fiancé . But my brother trusts no one. He's a true business man. My fiancé wants to call off the wedding bc of this . She rather call off wedding than sign prenup ?
> Does that make sense ? She feels that insulted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think of it like this: a pre nup is a piece of paper saying she won't try to scam you. If she actually cares about you, it's virtually a meaningless piece of paper. She values your relationship less than a worthless piece of paper. There's your answer.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Here's another way to look at it - one of my favorite sayings, "One of the keys to a good marriage is understanding the terms of the divorce." 

Is what she's showing you a preview of what to expect if it goes south?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

crazz0000 said:


> I trust my bro And fiancé . But my brother trusts no one. He's a true business man. My fiancé wants to call off the wedding bc of this . She rather call off wedding than sign prenup ?
> Does that make sense ? She feels that insulted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to say that honestly I'd feel insulted. I never have taken advantage of anyone.

In our state the house issue is this would never effect your brother at all. If you were to divorce, you'd have to pay her your share of the equidity of split value(between your brother and you) of the house if she pushed you for it. Depending on the situation the courts may or may not be in her favor over the house. Whatever happens, she can not take the house or live in it. Maybe you want to contact a lawyer for his opinion. He knows the laws, plus he may want your business in the future. The house is not in her name.

Is it worth all of this? I'd feel as if my husband could not trust me if he asked to sign a prenup. He owned his own house prior to our marriage. We sold it and moved to where we are now. We also have had the most wonderful 12 years together and together we made a beautiful family. My husband has contracts for every time we hire someone to fix or build something for our house, that's the only time contracts are involved. It did save us our roof. The roofer would of scammed us, but he was a total stranger not a finance.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You are actually now in a microcosm of the kind of challenging conflict resolution that you will find yourself in quite frequently once married.

And look at what this has done to your 'unbreakable bond'.

It broke.

Proceed at your own risk.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I'd feel as if my husband could not trust me if he asked to sign a prenup.


Your husband has no good reason to trust that you will remain married to him for the rest of your lives, in fact the odds are greater that the marriage will fail than it will succeed, and when and if it happens you'll most likely go after everything you believe is rightfully yours including the full equity in your home, much of which doesn't really belong to you.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

donders said:


> Your husband has no good reason to trust that you will remain married to him for the rest of your lives, in fact the odds are greater that the marriage will fail than it will succeed, and when and if it happens you'll most likely go after everything you believe is rightfully yours including the full equity in your home, much of which doesn't really belong to you.


Chances are there will never be a divorce between us ever. We've been married 12 years and have a fabulous marriage. My husband could of left me when I broke my neck and became disabled. Instead he chose to stay with me in sickness and in health. We never did grow out of our honeymoon stage.

Also, I divorced my ex. I took nothing. I asked for $200 a month in child support and that is what I was paid for 17 years.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

donders said:


> Your husband has no good reason to trust that you will remain married to him for the rest of your lives, in fact the odds are greater that the marriage will fail than it will succeed


Actually if it's a first marriage for both the rate drops to 40%


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> I trust my bro And fiancé . But my brother trusts no one. He's a true business man. My fiancé wants to call off the wedding bc of this . She rather call off wedding than sign prenup ?
> Does that make sense ? She feels that insulted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP - I am truly sorry about this. 

May I ask how old is your fiancee?

How long have you been together?

What is her education level?

If you proceed with the marriage w/o a pre-nup, how will your Brother treat you?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> In our state the house issue is this would never effect your brother at all. If you were to divorce, you'd have to pay her your share of the equidity of split value(between your brother and you) of the house if she pushed you for it.


Here's how that affects his brother. Court does as you suggest and orders him to pay her half the value of a non cash asset - of course he will have to pay that in cash. Assuming he doesn't have the cash laying around to do that in addition to the rest of the settlement the answer is to sell his half to his brother. Assuming his brother doesn't have the cash lying around to buy out his brother the options are A)sell the house on the market if they can B) force his brother (the OP) into BK or liquidation to meet the courts ruling. Either way it affects the brother and all for a simple piece of paper that says she agrees not to go after what she had nothing to do with anyway.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Here's another way to look at it - one of my favorite sayings, "One of the keys to a good marriage is understanding the terms of the divorce."
> 
> Is what she's showing you a preview of what to expect if it goes south?


You take that back right now or I swear I'll call off the marriage, and I'll abort your first unborn child just to make a point!!


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> Here's how that affects his brother. Court does as you suggest and orders him to pay her half the value of a non cash asset - of course he will have to pay that in cash. Assuming he doesn't have the cash laying around to do that in addition to the rest of the settlement the answer is to sell his half to his brother. Assuming his brother doesn't have the cash lying around to buy out his brother the options are A)sell the house on the market if they can B) force his brother (the OP) into BK or liquidation to meet the courts ruling. Either way it affects the brother and all for a simple piece of paper that says she agrees not to go after what she had nothing to do with anyway.


And let's not forget that the OP said earlier that the house was currently valued at $800 - 900k. I'm sorry, but I don't like ANYONE my sibling marries enough to roll the dice to the tune of half a million dollars on whether they'll stay married or remain civil if they don't stay married.

If they did happen to get divorced, with that kind of valuation they'd almost certainly have to liquidate the asset to cover the settlement costs.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

now if a woman had asked a man to sign because she has money in her family what would all the women say then?


another selfish double standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if she don't sign and you marry her then you were warned. lol

hope you never think back and kick yourself .

if she walks then I can guarnteen you a happier life. are you the leader or are you going to let your woman lead you?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

If it's ONLY the house, I would sign it. Shoot. It's not my house to begin with. If my husband had this situation, i would have signed. 

But I'm not a greedy person. With my ex (not married but lived together and i'm sure if we were married it would have rolled the same way)...we broke up, and all I took from the house was the dining set (which was a GIFT from him to me for a xmas) and the washer and dryer because I had hookups in my new place and I had our daughter. I didn't want jack from what relationship. I did take my stuff but didn't ask for anything from him and at the time, he was making 4 times what I was making.


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

that_girl said:


> If it's ONLY the house, I would sign it. Shoot. It's not my house to begin with. If my husband had this situation, i would have signed.
> 
> But I'm not a greedy person. With my ex (not married but lived together and i'm sure if we were married it would have rolled the same way)...we broke up, and all I took from the house was the dining set (which was a GIFT from him to me for a xmas) and the washer and dryer because I had hookups in my new place and I had our daughter. I didn't want jack from what relationship. I did take my stuff but didn't ask for anything from him and at the time, he was making 4 times what I was making.


It's only this house that's it. Whatever we purchase later is fair game 
Were both 27
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

The problem here really isn't the prenup and your potential exposure.

It's her ATTITUDE.

It's bad.

VERY BAD.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

crazz0000 said:


> It's only this house that's it. Whatever we purchase later is fair game
> Were both 27
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then perhaps it's the stigma she feels is put on her if she knows people know she signed a prenup. Maybe she is worried people will talk that she's a gold-digger, etc. I am not sure.

Makie it so it's to protect your brother and your house. If she still throws a stink, then rethink all of this....there's NO REASON why she should throw a fit over something that has NEVER been hers.


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## crazz0000 (Sep 11, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Then perhaps it's the stigma she feels is put on her if she knows people know she signed a prenup. Maybe she is worried people will talk that she's a gold-digger, etc. I am not sure.
> 
> Makie it so it's to protect your brother and your house. If she still throws a stink, then rethink all of this....there's NO REASON why she should throw a fit over something that has NEVER been hers.


 That exactly what the she thinks . It's not about money it's how her family will react and the perception that she is a gold digger
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

How many people that she knows, or the family who is judging her, is in a situation like this? It is not typical.

What you are asking for is reasonable. It is reasonable mainly becuase a divorce will screw up this family property. No matter what you should protect it even if you don't obtain a pre-nup as was described.

The thing is, what you have to do is lead her to understand a) that it's none of her family's business b) this is a special case that no one in her family had to deal with c) point out that she is willing to call off a marriage to avoid signing a document that she is already VERBALLY agreeing to, so what does this say about how well she values you?


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## suesmith (Jan 5, 2012)

Why does anyone other then you, your brother and her even need to know about the prenup? Its not public information, (is it?) If she chooses to tell her family, thats up to her. But otherwise, no one else needs to know.

Methinks she is showing her true colors. Dont ignore them!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My first thoughts on this... Your new marriage is supposed to be your primary relationship going forward. She may sense that the pre-nup isn't important to you, and you're only doing it for your brother. Which is worrying her that this is the way things will be in the future. In which case, I wouldn't be marrying you either. Marriages with meddling in-laws would be a nightmare.

Does she say WHY she doesn't want to sign anything? Can you try to back things down, and just talk about the house? Your brother is entitled to protect his assets (as are you), but as identified, you can hopefully set things up so the only risk is half of your half of the appreciation from your wedding day. And if the house was owned free and clear, taking out a mortgage to buy out her share shouldn't be that big of an issue, if worse comes to worst.

I would have a huge concern though about the number of people you'll be sharing your abode with. What is there, 5? You and your wife, your brother, and two tenants? New marriages are a time or you and your wife. You should be screwing as often as possible on any horizontal surface you can in, and against a lot of he vertical ones too. Having that many people in a house is not conducive to that. Or quiet times planning out your lives, getting to know each deepest fears nd greatest dreams... Just saying...

C


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## missmolly (Jun 10, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Then perhaps it's the stigma she feels is put on her if she knows people know she signed a prenup. Maybe she is worried people will talk that she's a gold-digger, etc. I am not sure.
> 
> Makie it so it's to protect your brother and your house. If she still throws a stink, then rethink all of this....there's NO REASON why she should throw a fit over something that has NEVER been hers.


Then why even CALL it a pre-nup?
Can't you just have a 'house agreement'?


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## Illbehisfoolagain (May 7, 2012)

crazz0000 said:


> That exactly what the she thinks . It's not about money it's how her family will react and the perception that she is a gold digger
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That sounds like a load of BS to me. If she really didn't care about having no claim on this house, then she wouldn't be causing such a big deal about signing the prenup, she would just sign it because she doesnt care about having no claim on the house. She's worried about LOOKING like a gold digger, because she knows she's being shady and ACTING like a gold digger (because she's a gold digger?). Your family must have money, if your grandmother had a nearly $1 million house, there must be more family money that shes aware of as well.

If she's willing to call off the marriage, and walk away over this, then you should have your answer of how much she loves you, versus how important your families material goods are to her (because if she has no access to them, then she's willing to leave you it seems).


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Watching this unfold in my family as we speak. My two brothers inherited my dad's farm. My one brother's 20 year relationship just blew up and guess the first thing the b!tch is going for? 1/4 of the farm. And she was the cheater. Don't proceed without something signed - sh!t happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you checked to see if there is a way to move your interest in the home to a trust or some other instrument so that she can make a claim?

In your will you could pass your portion of the home onto her if you want. But it would protect your right to the property.

I completely get where your brother is comeing from. Your choice to get married could cause him to own a home with her some day... whether or not you are still married to her at the time. If I were he, I'd be very concerned as well.

He could end up having to sell the house to get out of co-ownership wiht her.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

I would like to point out the fact your brother hates marriages . So he will always be negative about you getting married. You have to live for yourself. Sorry your brother sounds controlling. If the lady does call off the wedding, you will just have to move on.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

mrstj4sho88 said:


> I would like to point out the fact your brother hates marriages . So he will always be negative about you getting married. You have to live for yourself. Sorry your brother sounds controlling. If the lady does call off the wedding, you will just have to move on.


Where does the OP say that his brother "hates marriages" and is negative about him getting married.? The only thing he's trying to 'control' is his interest in the house. Do you not think he has a right to protect himself from circumstances that he is acknowledging that he has NO control over. ie., his brothers marriage.?


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

jfv said:


> Where does the OP say that his brother "hates marriages" and is negative about him getting married.? The only thing he's trying to 'control' is his interest in the house. Do you not think he has a right to protect himself from circumstances that he is acknowledging that he has NO control over. ie., his brothers marriage.?


OP talks about his brothers' bad relationships.. Op talks about his lady thinking of calling off the wedding plans too. Just go back and read the complete thread. Wait all this information can be found on the first page. Here I have it below for you to read..

"Actually been through many bad relationships, so he concentrates on work. Most of his friends are at the point where they are married and have a few kids. Some are going great, some marriages have problems. He is now dating a long time friend who was recently divorced and she really sticked it to her ex. - Making him sell family property for child support. Property that belongs to his family.

So now my brother has no trust in marriages and all he sees in divorces and marital problems. I understand my finance is upset and is about to call off this wedding from it. But on other hand, I need to also respect my bro decision as well."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do NOT marry her if she refuses. You should draw one up for yourself, as well. That way, she can't get your family's house and you can't get what she has earned.

That said, why are you so bent on doing what makes your brother happy? What's the deal there?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think, like I said before, a deeper conversation about this house is in order. What's the intended future of it? Are you planning on keeping it in the family, passing it on to children, if so - whose? 

Any agreement and decision needs to be about more than ensuring -your- wife isn't a "gold digger." Have you contacted legal counsel, to ensure that all of what you want this document to say is legal and binding in your state? Perhaps to point out things that you have missed. 

I think more thought needs to go into this, this isn't really a "pre-nup" it's estate planning, and I think you should contact a professional to ensure it is done properly, and that -you- aren't taken advantage of while trying to appease your brother either.


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