# How to forgive your EX with kids involved



## Houstondad

I'm 9 months out of my divorce and I'm struggling with forgiveness. On a cognitive level, I want to forgive. I know that when I can legitimately forgive, that i will find the peace I need. But emotionally, it's just the opposite and the emotions are stronger than my rational thought. At least that's how I feel right now. 

I have made some progress...
1. I've found it easier to forgive her for the poor choices she made during the infidelity. She was in the Fog, addicted(she admitted) to the OM, and had too many depressive and anxiety episodes. This I've been able to forgive her for what she has done to me directly. Dissapointing that she didn't give our marriage a chance to rebuild and put forth real effort after the bomb dropped? Absolutely. But I've been able to forgive her for this.

2. I made mistakes in the marriage too. I own up to it and I am learning to improve myself to be a better person and a better husband. It's been tough, but I am now able to forgive myself. Finally!


3. "Abandoning her kids (she left them with me) and only communicates via video chat 2X a week and sees them holidays and summers living in another state. 
This part(#3) I struggle so much with forgiveness. I am angry at her for doing this to our kids. I hate seeing my kids suffer when they miss their mom and have a meltdown about other things that I feel are compounded because of mom leaving. I want what's best for my kids. I want to protect them. But my EX's decision to stay far away (because living in my town creates too much anxiety for her?; out of sight, out of mind??) has affected them. 
I know being angry with her is more detremental to me. I'm not happy like I should be and I feel my kids are noticing. It only harms me, not my EX. How can you forgive someone who is so selfish to put their needs before their kids and risk having your kids grow up with emotional problems? Is she that emotionally damaged (GUILT,depression,anxiety,etc.) that she thinks she's more harm than good as a parent who lives close by?!? 
Maybe that's the way I need to view it? Is there a magic way of looking at all of this so I can move on?


----------



## angelpixie

I'm not of the mindset that one HAS to forgive. That doesn't mean one remains bitter or angry or resentful. I'm moving towards indifference. I believe I've already found much peace at this point. 

Some have defined forgiveness as no longer letting someone's actions affect you. Just like with you, the things he's doing in my child's life are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm moving past the things between us, but his choices _are_ still affecting our son's life. And the major choice to walk away instead of even trying to work on things is the main reason for those changes in my son's life. Those are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm doing my best to work around them for my son, but I can't undo them or make up for them. I guess at some point, my son will make the decision to forgive us (or not) for not being able to be a healthy intact family for him, and for the things we do as single parents.


----------



## whitehawk

Houstondad said:


> I'm 9 months out of my divorce and I'm struggling with forgiveness. On a cognitive level, I want to forgive. I know that when I can legitimately forgive, that i will find the peace I need. But emotionally, it's just the opposite and the emotions are stronger than my rational thought. At least that's how I feel right now.
> 
> I have made some progress...
> 1. I've found it easier to forgive her for the poor choices she made during the infidelity. She was in the Fog, addicted(she admitted) to the OM, and had too many depressive and anxiety episodes. This I've been able to forgive her for what she has done to me directly. Dissapointing that she didn't give our marriage a chance to rebuild and put forth real effort after the bomb dropped? Absolutely. But I've been able to forgive her for this.
> 
> 2. I made mistakes in the marriage too. I own up to it and I am learning to improve myself to be a better person and a better husband. It's been tough, but I am now able to forgive myself. Finally!
> 
> 
> 3. "Abandoning her kids (she left them with me) and only communicates via video chat 2X a week and sees them holidays and summers living in another state.
> This part(#3) I struggle so much with forgiveness. I am angry at her for doing this to our kids. I hate seeing my kids suffer when they miss their mom and have a meltdown about other things that I feel are compounded because of mom leaving. I want what's best for my kids. I want to protect them. But my EX's decision to stay far away (because living in my town creates too much anxiety for her?; out of sight, out of mind??) has affected them.
> I know being angry with her is more detremental to me. I'm not happy like I should be and I feel my kids are noticing. It only harms me, not my EX. How can you forgive someone who is so selfish to put their needs before their kids and risk having your kids grow up with emotional problems? Is she that emotionally damaged (GUILT,depression,anxiety,etc.) that she thinks she's more harm than good as a parent who lives close by?!?
> Maybe that's the way I need to view it? Is there a magic way of looking at all of this so I can move on?



I can really feel your pain in this , and the anger.
I'm living it myself for what she's done to my beautiful innocent daughters growing up now breaking us all up.
I fkg hate her guts for it. That's how I really feel.
We both caused this and the original cluster fk overload that sent us both into a spin , was about getting work , a home , agead , for her in this area because she wouldn't move.
18 mths after moving in and a 5 yr hell to get it all , she rips us apart and moves out.
Yes I didn't handle the stress well , yes I did end up having a very, very hurtful EA . But she'd changed a lot too and also didn't tell me anything , she told me the opposite in fact .
But there were light bulb moments - big bell's , we we'd been lost , fkd up , and we were ready to return and we could have , just like any long marriage does and survives.

But now , my daughter and me will live like this !
For that , when I'm over there , living like THIS , to be with my own daughter ! It breaks our hearts and especially hers.
I exploded last week at her , she did do something but the explosion came from this , the anger at that.
Only 4 1/2 mths , but if this is gonna work , I have to find something. I thought I had it but now as time goes on and I watch my daughter having to live this , well !

Yours , there is something there for you . Like what's all the depression, anxiety, how bad is it all, what happens with her,what's it all about ?
Maybe she really does feel it's safer to be away from them.

Tell you something , I've considered moving away and just waiting until my D's 18 , 11 now.
Watching her having to house hop and deal, cope , live with all this . it's sickening , heartbreaking . 
Maybe if I just wasn't around . She could just have a settled one parent up bringing with her mum.


----------



## whitehawk

angelpixie said:


> I'm not of the mindset that one HAS to forgive. That doesn't mean one remains bitter or angry or resentful. I'm moving towards indifference. I believe I've already found much peace at this point.
> 
> Some have defined forgiveness as no longer letting someone's actions affect you. Just like with you, the things he's doing in my child's life are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm moving past the things between us, but his choices _are_ still affecting our son's life. And the major choice to walk away instead of even trying to work on things is the main reason for those changes in my son's life. Those are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm doing my best to work around them for my son, but I can't undo them or make up for them. I guess at some point, my son will make the decision to forgive us (or not) for not being able to be a healthy intact family for him, and for the things we do as single parents.



So hear you Angel , echoing mine above .

My trouble it on one hand , I couldn't give a flying fk about forgiving her for this pathetic cop out. she doesn't deserve forgiveness because this didn't have to happen to my Daughter.

But the trouble is , I don't know how else to shake this anger and if I don't it's just too hard being around her for my daughter.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I never forgave my ex h for the way he treated me and 19 years have passed. I am passed the anger, actually I was pretty darn calm when I left. I felt at peace. He also abandoned his child we had together. It hurt the child(whom now is an adult) mentally.

I moved on and I never looked back. It was unforgivable the way he treated me.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Trying to have a marriage with my ex took a big toll on me. Eighteen years with her, and ten of being married, has ultimately resulted in whatever "this" is. My kid is 11 too, and yet she doesnt seem opposed or upset about travelling back and forth every other week. So much to be grateful for, considering selfish actions of my ex. Forgiveness, is something that will have to come with time for me. So much extraordinary effort went to waste, and I was left with humiliation, and the feeling that the scumbag she is with now, is preferable to me. My "ego" gets in the way of forgiveness sometimes.... 
I do ultimately come around to the mindset that I am no longer struggling with an emotional vaccuum. I kinda dont know what to do with myself these days, and am trying to understand what "I" am, now, outside of the husband/family man role. 
I felt used, by someone that hadnt the experiences in life to appreciate it. I can try to take a look back and see where I contributed to the problem.. but thats all on me and up to me, becuase she simply says that I was "wonderful". I dont know what to take away from that. 
So, the weeks pass. Time hopefully will produce a sense of self sufficiency. It is hard for me to imagine reaching a point where seeing her and the dude that she had an affair with as something of value. They currently live like there was never a "me" in the picture, and its like I am left holding the bag for anger and resentment for the entire scenario... 
I dont know.. I dont like to think about it anymore.


----------



## whitehawk

Shooboomafoo said:


> Trying to have a marriage with my ex took a big toll on me. Eighteen years with her, and ten of being married, has ultimately resulted in whatever "this" is. My kid is 11 too, and yet she doesnt seem opposed or upset about travelling back and forth every other week. So much to be grateful for, considering selfish actions of my ex. Forgiveness, is something that will have to come with time for me. So much extraordinary effort went to waste, and I was left with humiliation, and the feeling that the scumbag she is with now, is preferable to me. My "ego" gets in the way of forgiveness sometimes....
> I do ultimately come around to the mindset that I am no longer struggling with an emotional vaccuum. I kinda dont know what to do with myself these days, and am trying to understand what "I" am, now, outside of the husband/family man role.
> I felt used, by someone that hadnt the experiences in life to appreciate it. I can try to take a look back and see where I contributed to the problem.. but thats all on me and up to me, becuase she simply says that I was "wonderful". I dont know what to take away from that.
> So, the weeks pass. Time hopefully will produce a sense of self sufficiency. It is hard for me to imagine reaching a point where seeing her and the dude that she had an affair with as something of value. They currently live like there was never a "me" in the picture, and its like I am left holding the bag for anger and resentment for the entire scenario...
> I dont know.. I dont like to think about it anymore.



Thanks for talking S . 18yrs married 10 , daughter 11 - ha we were 18yrs , married 12, D's 11 as you know too.
How long ago did you split ?
I know exactly what you mean about experience , maturity . All this last 6yrs of hell , was for her and my daughters stability - but look where that is now ! 4 1/2 mths and it still makes me crazy thinking about it . A smarter tougher girl would have come back from this , recognize the cluster fk we'd just been through and it's toll - gets me so wild , not good I know !

So what your daughters ok house hopping , staying , living in two sep houses and parents ?
Could you explain a bit more about it all for her please , this is my biggest problem with us right now. 4 1/2 mths and it's starting to sink in with her . She was surprisingly pretty good earlier on , though a lot of hurt and confusion inside . But this last 5-6wks , she's hurting bad and not coping with the stay overs , getting upset , it's just breaking my heart .
Just not sure how to make it better for her short of letting her off the hook and not having her stay . But then I'd never get to live with my girl anymore .


----------



## SeekingClosure

Houstondad - wow, I could have written your exact post. It's been just over a year on my end since my divorce and my WW leaving the kids (she moved from TX to the UK to be with OM, and like yours talks a few times a week on iPad and then comes in every few months to visit). 

I've also come to accept your 1) and 2), but it's the effect it has on the kids that I just cannot accept. Complete and utter selfishness.

Anyway, hang in there bro, and if you figure it out let me know!


----------



## whitehawk

Jesus that's rough , I'm sorry for your situation.

I knew some men can do that but to be honest , until this last 6 mths I had no idea so many women, a mum, just leave their kids for the sake of that whatever it fkg is between their legs.

I use to rate women far higher than us blokes but so much for that - these days I think they're about 2 rungs lower again than us.

Your karma's gotta be coming to you , and hers too , hang in there.


----------



## C3156

Houstondad said:


> I'm 9 months out of my divorce and I'm struggling with forgiveness.


A lot of reading I did says you need to give a year of time for each 4/5 years of marriage to work through and get over the significant other. The old adage that time heals all wounds will come into play. The first year was the worst for me, but it does get better.




Houstondad said:


> 3. "Abandoning her kids (she left them with me) and only communicates via video chat 2X a week and sees them holidays and summers living in another state.
> This part(#3) I struggle so much with forgiveness. I am angry at her for doing this to our kids. I hate seeing my kids suffer when they miss their mom and have a meltdown about other things that I feel are compounded because of mom leaving. I want what's best for my kids. I want to protect them. But my EX's decision to stay far away (because living in my town creates too much anxiety for her?; out of sight, out of mind??) has affected them.


This sucks, I cannot imagine my ex just picking up and leaving. She actually stayed close so that we could co-parent our kids. The kids took a while to finally work through the divorce, but they will come through, they are very resilient.

The best I can say, remember this: You can only control your actions, nobody elses. The forgiveness is for you, not her. Forgive her and let her go, you cannot change what she is doing. Be the best Dad you can be for your children and be the rock they can cling to in this storm. 

Take care of yourself as well, your kids need you to be strong for them right now. Get some exercise, eat right, and get as much sleep as you can. Find a counselor you can talk with to work through the anger. It is rough now, but one day you will look back and realize that you were the better person and did the best you could.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Forgiving does not mean you have to change your mind about how sh!tty your ex wife was, or how she acted. I dont know any person that would walk away from their kids and be satisfied with a video conference twice a week. That there, shows a sign of something else going on that is abnormal and likely good that she is gone... the toll it is going to take on those kids is HER burden and shame, and will have everlasting effects between them. What kind of everlasting effects are YOU going to have on them? 

Your job, is to step up your involvement and reliability and express attention and affection towards them kids. Be an example of how this ugly situation can be gotten past, and given no power to affect your ongoing happiness. I wanted to provide my girl a place to come because the last eighteen years had proven a fking loopty loo trying to have a relationship with the ex, and I imagine it was going to be exactly the same way without me there at the marital home to be a buffer between the craziness of the ex and our kid. 
I am still that buffer, but in a different house, and my daughter has expressed many times in may different ways, an appreciation for it. 
Kids are going to need someone solid. Someone that pays attention to them, and remains that rock that she can have expectations of, and reliance upon. 
After ALL the hell that consumed me for a year, that I still fight with to just drop that bag of rocks for good... I kept my relationship and attitude towards my kid as upbeat and close as I could. Im a big hug giver anyways, and know that being attentive and even listening to the crazy stuff that comes out of their heads at times means a lot to them.. My mom was this way, and it was magical. I feel the same way about myself, and aside from alllllll the garbage about my ex and that whole situation, I am determined to ensure that when my daughter is with me, that she knows what to expect, that she can talk openly, that she can express things and I wont judge her outside of helping her understand. 

Her attitude and ability to have coped so far, I attribute to a divine hand of God himself, I certainly have absolutely NO idea how she is able to just skip on thru without a tear. Ive worried that she was holding things in, or acting out at school, but talking with her teachers indicate none of that. I think becuase of the newness of your situation that it is still so fresh, that there just hasnt been enough time living the new normal for it to be comfortable yet. 
It WILL get there, and you must ensure that you are attentive and give lots of hugs, and play with them, and be that buffer.

Dont let yourself perpetuate the attention given to the actions of their mom. Dont highlight the sh!tty behavior. Often times our kids dont think about things the same way we do, and what is completely aggregious to us, is nothing to them.. 
Make your home a happy place to be. NEver let the actions and concurrent (after divorce) issues that go on in your ex's life have power to shut you down, and the kids will follow suit. 
I only say these things, becuase I did the opposite enough to recognize that flaw.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Oh, and my divorce was Aug.31, 2011.


----------



## Mavash.

There is no magic it's a process. Look up the 5 stages of grief anger is one of the steps. It's healthy it's normal embrace it. The more you try to skip steps the longer you will stay stuck.

It's only been 9 months. Be kind to yourself.


----------



## Houstondad

I appreciate all of the advice, empathy, and experiences many of you have shared. 
I realized just recently that the funk I'm in (not being happy) is being noticed by my kids. I try to hide it, but I'm kidding myself when it comes to my kids. Kids are pros at picking up on the subtle behaviors.
I've been exercising and eating healthy. I took up being my son's teams soccer coach (I've never coached before) and know that will be good for my son and me. But I need to do more for myself. I need to go to IC. I need to pick up more hobbies(finally going to look at purchasing a drum set. Bucket list check!). And I need to make more friends outside of my co-workers.


----------



## Conrad

Houstondad said:


> I appreciate all of the advice, empathy, and experiences many of you have shared.
> I realized just recently that the funk I'm in (not being happy) is being noticed by my kids. I try to hide it, but I'm kidding myself when it comes to my kids. Kids are pros at picking up on the subtle behaviors.
> I've been exercising and eating healthy. I took up being my son's teams soccer coach (I've never coached before) and know that will be good for my son and me. But I need to do more for myself. I need to go to IC. I need to pick up more hobbies(finally going to look at purchasing a drum set. Bucket list check!). And I need to make more friends outside of my co-workers.


You're still to focused on her.

Almost there.

Being indifferent towards the crap she shovels your way will free you to live your life.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

EXACTLY what I am feeling about myself as of late.
Just dont know where to go from here.. Do I need to? Is my happiness simply a matter of attitude about my situation? 
To ask someone on the outside, they would say, you have a house, you get to see your kid more than most divorced dads, you have food, job, making headway on debt........

and I surely am grateful...

But something is missing. I feel like I am treading water, and maybe that was necessary for me, for awhile.. 
I had originally no choice in the matter due to finances and I couldnt afford to get out much. 

But OHHHHH that feeling of "what the hEll am I doing sitting around" is weighing heavily..

I'd like to take steps that are completely of my OWN interest and desire.. rather than admittedly living life and doing things to please others.. I am attempting to figure out just what it is that gives me that "im going no where doing nothing" feeling... 
(Comparing myself to the ex's lightspeed motion into her new life, is so totally stupid of me, but its hard not to, and by comparison, I look at myself like Ive not come anywhere at all.)

My approach to living my life, as I have come to find out, has been to be agreeable to others, boss, wife, family, friends....
But throughout all that, I forgot about what it was "I" wanted....


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Conrad said:


> You're still to focused on her.
> 
> Almost there.
> 
> Being indifferent towards the crap she shovels your way will free you to live your life.


:iagree: And that's the key..It's not forgiving that's important. What's important is when you simply aren't affected by your former spouse and what they did. THAT is what will enable you to move on, not just physically or legally, but emotionally as well. 

When you can go a day without thinking about your ex then you've arrived. And 9 months isn't long enough. For me, it took about 2 years. Only now, after over 2 years of living separately can I truly say that I'm actually SEPARATED emotionally. 

Am I still pissed about what my husband did? Oh yeah. But I've accepted that it happened and it's not affecting my life now but getting to this place wasn't easy at all. My attitude is driven by the fact that my son needs a father as well as a mother. I concentrate on doing the best I can for him for the sake of my son. Being angry and vengeful at his father won't help matters at all. There's simply no point in it so I've let a lot go. I find I'm very pragmatic about it all. 

But for that, you have to have the self discipline to bypass your own person feelings and anger in order to attain a good life for your child. It's not easy and it takes time. 

You can't change your ex. You can only change and deal with yourself. That means working on your own life. Focusing on the kids is only half the deal. You need to focus on yourself and take positive steps to make yourself happy. That means making a life for yourself in any way you can. Good diet, exercise, making friends, hobbies..That all helps. You need to make yourself happy so that you can make your kids happy. A miserable person can't bring happiness to other people. 

But it doesn't happen overnight.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

I'm not getting all these parents who just up and abandon these kids, especially the mothers. :wtf: These woman should have their parent card ripped up!

Women who abandon their kids outight are #1 on my list of scumbag mothers. #2 are the ones who parade a line of boyfriends in and out of their children's lives and behave like kids themselves. What is WITH these women? :slap: 

My STBXH has behaved badly as a result of his alcoholism, especially to my daughter. For that I don't have any respect for him but he's an important fixture in my son's life and for the most part, when he's been sober, he's been there for my kids, especially my son. I'll give him that much. I think his heart is in the right place. Earlier in my kids lives he was a great dad so I'm willing to overlook a lot of the sins he's committed in the past 3 years. 

My slate isn't clean either. When my children were younger I had problems myself and their father practically raised them. Maybe my attitude towards my STBXH comes from some of the guilt I feel about those years. We're pretty equal in our sins in many ways it's just that his sins have been more recent. 

Compared to some of these "parents" I'm reading about here, my STBX is a friggin' saint!


----------



## Houstondad

Conrad said:


> You're still to focused on her.
> 
> Almost there.
> 
> Being indifferent towards the crap she shovels your way will free you to live your life.


You're right. I am still allowing myself to focus on her and her BS. Yes, it's slowly getting better. The focus on her becomes magnified (especially when she sends crap my way) and other times it's less magnified. 
Rushing out and getting a girlfriend to mask the focus, pain, anger is nothing but a band aid and I want to completely let go of her before I commit to a serious relationship.
Indifference? I agree with this approach. But how do I reach that attitude or way of thinking? I don't want to "pretend" that she's indifferent when my feelings or emotions say otherwise.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

whitehawk said:


> Tell you something , I've considered moving away and just waiting until my D's 18 , 11 now.
> Watching her having to house hop and deal, cope , live with all this . it's sickening , heartbreaking .
> Maybe if I just wasn't around . She could just have a settled one parent up bringing with her mum.


Don't do that. Your daughter needs her father. Girls who are abandoned by their fathers often grow up into teenagers who sleep around. They are looking for the love and acceptance they didn't get from their fathers. You don't want that to be your daughter. At 11 she is right on the cusp of her teen years and this is a VERY important time for her. 

And the woman you meet at 18 won't want to have anything to do with you. You just can't hit the "pause" button when it comes to raising your kids. 

You don't HAVE to involve your wife in your relationship with your daughter. I don't know what kind of visitation schedule you have or how you interact with your ex when you pick up your daughter but you can have it that you have very little to do with your ex. You can just go her house and have your D waiting for you at a preappointed time. Drop her off in the same fashion and communicate via text or email. If your ex discusses ANYTHING other than your D then you shut her down. 

Take control of the situation. It's empowering and it will help shelter you from the emotions you are feeling with regards to your ex. 

When my STBXH was pissing me off I instructed him to wait outside my apt for my son. I sent my son out and he was dropped off in the same manner. My son is older so he actually arranges to see his father independently of me most times but your D isn't far behind at 11 years old. There will come a time when you will pretty much be out of the loop as your D becomes a teenager. 

By then you'll be pretty much over your ex. I know you don't think it will happen but it will. It just takes time. You are only 4 months into this and that's nothing as far as time goes. Trust me on that. I was going through living hell 4 months after my H and I separated. 

2.4 years and I'm good now but it didn't happen overnight. 

You daughter has to adjust to this as you. This going back and forth is hard on her but just like you, she will adjust to it. If you make your times with her fun and special then she'll come to look forward to it. Try and use your emotions constructively and come up with things to do with her. At 11, she's getting to an age where you can relate to her as another person and not have to constantly babysit her. These are important years that will set her up for her teenage years. She needs you more than ever! Surely you must have something in common with her?

I've done all kinds of fun things with my kids. I still do. From 4 wheeling and camping to playing video games and watching movies. With my son, I try and plan something fun to do with him so I can connect with him emotionally. Try and find something that you and your daughter can share on your own that has NOTHING to do with your ex wife. It will be something you and her can share and enjoy during the time you spend with her.

A few things I have planned to do with my son is a trip up to NYC to see the USS Intrepid (a WWII battleship museum) and to take him to the boardwalk for an overnight trip to play video games. Try and plan to do something like that with your D so you can take her mind off what's going on with you and your wife. I think YOUR obsession with this is what's unnerving her and causing her to unstable emotionally. 

You need to be her emotional anchor.


----------



## Houstondad

Freak On a Leash said:


> :iagree: And that's the key..It's not forgiving that's important. What's important is when you simply aren't affected by your former spouse and what they did. THAT is what will enable you to move on, not just physically or legally, but emotionally as well.
> 
> When you can go a day without thinking about your ex then you've arrived. And 9 months isn't long enough. For me, it took about 2 years. Only now, after over 2 years of living separately can I truly say that I'm actually SEPARATED emotionally.
> 
> Am I still pissed about what my husband did? Oh yeah. But I've accepted that it happened and it's not affecting my life now but getting to this place wasn't easy at all. My attitude is driven by the fact that my son needs a father as well as a mother. I concentrate on doing the best I can for him for the sake of my son. Being angry and vengeful at his father won't help matters at all. There's simply no point in it so I've let a lot go. I find I'm very pragmatic about it all.
> 
> But for that, you have to have the self discipline to bypass your own person feelings and anger in order to attain a good life for your child. It's not easy and it takes time.
> 
> You can't change your ex. You can only change and deal with yourself. That means working on your own life. Focusing on the kids is only half the deal. You need to focus on yourself and take positive steps to make yourself happy. That means making a life for yourself in any way you can. Good diet, exercise, making friends, hobbies..That all helps. You need to make yourself happy so that you can make your kids happy. A miserable person can't bring happiness to other people.


I understand what you're saying. Being able to let go of all the things your EX has done helps pave the way for forgiveness. Or however we decide to handle it. I know time will help and it's a little comforting that it's normal to still have these feelings 9 mos later.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Houstondad said:


> Rushing out and getting a girlfriend to mask the focus, pain, anger is nothing but a band aid and I want to completely let go of her before I commit to a serious relationship.


Please don't do that. You need to be there for your kids and any relationship with another woman will just take you away from them. Their mother has already abandoned them and your kids will see any relationship you have with another woman as being the same thing. You have to show them otherwise. They need to come first, especially since their supposed "mother" has done so badly by them. 

My advice to you is to do the opposite and AVOID getting into any relationships and should you meet someone and date keep it away from your kids. 




> Indifference? I agree with this approach. But how do I reach that attitude or way of thinking? I don't want to "pretend" that she's indifferent when my feelings or emotions say otherwise.


Indifference isn't something you can make happen. It just happens with time. It's the opposite scenario of falling in love. You are falling OUT of love and you can't force it. It just happens on it's own. 

But there are ways you can help the process. That's where the "180" comes in. Some people think it's a way to get your spouse back. It's not. It's a way to distance yourself from the other person and empower yourself..to get yourself back. 

Because in the end "indifference" is about getting control of your emotions, of getting yourself back. It's about emotional freedom. So you need to take steps to put yourself in that place. That means limiting your contact with your ex to the barest of minimums. 

That means NO drawn out, emotional conversations about what happened in your marriage or how you are feeling about the other person. You keep it impersonal and businesslike, as if you are dealing with someone in the workplace. At first it's forced and phony because inside you are feeling differently but eventually, like anything else, if you do it long enough you come to accept it and do it naturally. 

But you have to start the process first and stick to it.


----------



## nevergveup

I don't think some people deserve forgiveness in my opinion.
I'm one of those old school honest people.If you allow an ex
to continue to bring you down after a relationship is over,
they still have power over you.

Don't let them do this.
View them for how they really are,sad and pathetic.Most are looking for something they will never find.One day the light will come one, and they will realize what they have thrown away.

Don't forgive if you can't,get even theres someone who will
love you for you and not bail out when life gets rough.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Houstondad said:


> I understand what you're saying. Being able to let go of all the things your EX has done helps pave the way for forgiveness. Or however we decide to handle it. I know time will help and it's a little comforting that it's normal to still have these feelings 9 mos later.


I haven't forgotten what happened and if I dwell on things I do get angry. But there's no point in it. You can't change what happened, you can only deal with what IS and go on from there. 

It's quite normal to have these feelings 9 months later. You'll probably feel them 9 years later but you'll shrug them off and it won't matter. Everyone's time clock is different though. I'm used to walking away from toxic people so it probably was a bit easier for me than others. 

I haven't talked to my mother in 10 years and it took about 2 years for me to stop thinking about it. Now I hardly give her much thought. In fact, if I were to see her someplace now I'd probably be very pleasant to her but 5 years ago I couldn't have said that. 

With my STBXH there's my son to consider so I basically have forced myself to make the real effort to be cordial and polite and move forward emotionally. Believe me, it's a real battle at times not to drag things out and battle him on things as we go through our divorce but the practical side of me knows that it would just make things worse. it's constant battle within me. 

Kind of like not turning to the Dark Side of The Force.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Heck I still feel that way nearly 10 years later. But with his diagnosis I can nearly always attribute his behavior to that and I know it's hopeless. He's not going to change so all I can do is change myself and learn to deal with him. But I still hate him. My daughter asked me if I hated him and I said "NOOOooooo! We don't always agree but I don't hate him! He's your Dad and you wouldn't be here without him!" Lied through my teeth with a smile.

A massive coronary can't come soon enough. Every time I know I've pissed him off it makes me happy imagining just maybe this time he'll blow a fuse. If he hadn't kept his promise to make my life a living hell after I left, I might feel differently. But I don't like being manipulated by him and that's what he is constantly doing and using our daughter to boot.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Damn, that some serious hate going on Enjoli!  I will admit that on occasion I have wished for the death of my husband, but that was when I was still emotional about him and thought he had a life insurance policy.  Now he's far more useful being alive and I don't hate him now. I am glad we don't live together, that's for sure. He's not evil or manipulative though. Quite the opposite. At least for now while he's sober. Who knows what he has in store 6 months from now? It's always a new and different scenario but I take it day by day.



> But with his diagnosis I can nearly always attribute his behavior to that and I know it's hopeless. He's not going to change so all I can do is change myself and learn to deal with him


:iagree: That's pretty much where I'm at. 

But you are trying to put a good face on for your daughter and that's a good thing. :smthumbup:

Unfortunately I haven't always said the right things about their father to my kids, especially while he was acting like the biggest A-hole on the planet. Finally my son told me to knock it off (my daughter would just agree with me and joined in :rofl. So now I make a real effort to only say good stuff about his father to my son. Sometimes it's hard though. But hey, that's what friends are for.  Compared to my friends I sound downright friendly and charitable about my STBXH.


----------



## whitehawk

Houstondad said:


> I appreciate all of the advice, empathy, and experiences many of you have shared.
> I realized just recently that the funk I'm in (not being happy) is being noticed by my kids. I try to hide it, but I'm kidding myself when it comes to my kids. Kids are pros at picking up on the subtle behaviors.
> I've been exercising and eating healthy. I took up being my son's teams soccer coach (I've never coached before) and know that will be good for my son and me. But I need to do more for myself. I need to go to IC. I need to pick up more hobbies(finally going to look at purchasing a drum set. Bucket list check!). And I need to make more friends outside of my co-workers.



Heyy congrats . My daughter and I just set up a drum set ,,,, cooool ! Mate have we all had some fun on that . Belt the living crap out of them I can highly recommend it.

I know with the feeling of as if the kids are depending on your persona , you feel like you have to hide everything , big happy ok face.
But what I do is meet it 1/2 way if I'm down , you can get away with that , they seem fine with it as they're going there too . Try it it helps me , really takes the pressure of you.
Don't forget , we are all up and down naturally in day to day anyway. To appear up all the time , makes it even more obvious see . Ease up on yourself , they respect that.

And you will get into more stuff , just take your time , let it happen naturally, baby steps, , that's what I do. To me all this constant pushing of ourselves just makes it even harder so I don't go that way . Me I let it work through but I do give it a bit by bit nudge along the way too . Doing ok , not too much pressure on myself, works for me.


----------



## whitehawk

Shooboomafoo said:


> EXACTLY what I am feeling about myself as of late.
> Just dont know where to go from here.. Do I need to? Is my happiness simply a matter of attitude about my situation?
> To ask someone on the outside, they would say, you have a house, you get to see your kid more than most divorced dads, you have food, job, making headway on debt........
> 
> and I surely am grateful...
> 
> But something is missing. I feel like I am treading water, and maybe that was necessary for me, for awhile..
> I had originally no choice in the matter due to finances and I couldnt afford to get out much.
> 
> But OHHHHH that feeling of "what the hEll am I doing sitting around" is weighing heavily..
> 
> I'd like to take steps that are completely of my OWN interest and desire.. rather than admittedly living life and doing things to please others.. I am attempting to figure out just what it is that gives me that "im going no where doing nothing" feeling...
> (Comparing myself to the ex's lightspeed motion into her new life, is so totally stupid of me, but its hard not to, and by comparison, I look at myself like Ive not come anywhere at all.)
> 
> My approach to living my life, as I have come to find out, has been to be agreeable to others, boss, wife, family, friends....
> But throughout all that, I forgot about what it was "I" wanted....



Forget the ex's light speed - that's nothing to you , who fkg cares . 

" THE BRIGHTEST FLAME BURNS QUICKEST " 

remember that right now and when hers is fissing out into a bit of old smoke , yours would have been slowly climbing it's way up into "real " , long term, good things for you - not fluff !

Ease up on yourself , new things will come to you bit by bit as they're ready and they'll be real not forced . 

I know the feeling of not being able to get out too bet feeling like you should be , wanting too.
It's the same for me and bit by bit ideas are coming - while I'm waiting on a 1/2 decent pay where I can actually afford too.


----------



## whitehawk

nevergveup said:


> I don't think some people deserve forgiveness in my opinion.
> I'm one of those old school honest people.If you allow an ex
> to continue to bring you down after a relationship is over,
> they still have power over you.
> 
> Don't let them do this.
> View them for how they really are,sad and pathetic.Most are looking for something they will never find.One day the light will come one, and they will realize what they have thrown away.
> 
> Don't forgive if you can't,get even theres someone who will
> love you for you and not bail out when life gets rough.



Yeah with you all the way . Fck the forgiveness , why should I ?
By doing this she hasn't forgiven me in the first place anyway so why the hell should I have to ask even more of myself right now , than what I've already had to just to survive. 
It's taken everything I've had and wrecked my daughter s family .
Thought a lot a bout forgiveness , talked to a lot of people here , fk forgiveness is my conclusion.
For me it's coming around in it's own form , INDIFFERENCE !

I'm cool with indifference , but I don't see why I sould forgive if I don't feel like forgiving !


----------



## Freak On a Leash

You don't have to forgive but you have to move on or else your anger, hurt and rage will eat at you from the inside out like a tumor. It's just not worth it to carry your pain like blowtorch and destroy everything in your life because you were wronged. 

Life is too damn short for that.


----------



## whitehawk

Freak On a Leash said:


> You don't have to forgive but you have to move on or else your anger, hurt and rage will eat at you from the inside out like a tumor. It's just not worth it to carry your pain like blowtorch and destroy everything in your life because you were wronged.
> 
> Life is too damn short for that.



Yeah fore sure Freak , can't carry it. For me it's slowly floating off into the distance and further, hopefully oblivion soon :smthumbup:


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Freak On a Leash said:


> Damn, that some serious hate going on Enjoli!  I will admit that on occasion I have wished for the death of my husband, but that was when I was still emotional about him and thought he had a life insurance policy.
> 
> But you are trying to put a good face on for your daughter and that's a good thing. :smthumbup:


I know NPD is tossed around a lot but with an official diagnosis by a professional coupled with an opinion that rehabilitation is essentially hopeless because he's so bad, I do have to take it into consideration.

Bottom line - he is always right. Always. I am therefore, inferior and my opinion really doesn't matter. And according to him I made a huge mistake leaving him, he's the best I'll ever get, I'll have a crappy life and he said he was going to make it a living hell for doing this to him (leaving/divorcing). And he has made things a lot harder but the crappy living part - well I own a house and he lives with his mother.  

Multiple calls to DSS for bogus reasons. They come, do their investigation, talk to kiddo in private, mark the file that there was no abuse/neglect/drug use/etc. roll their eyes. One actually told my Dad it's pretty obvious ex was trying to use the system to get a leg-up in custody. 

I just get SOOOO tired of always being on the defensive. Or offensive since I now document EVERYTHING. Literally. I even keep receipts to restaurants and take photos of her frequently that I might not otherwise take. He complained I let her go to bed with damp hair, that I never take her out to eat, that she was malnourished because her school lunch account was in the negative (I sent lunch daily - she was buying ice cream every day) and that I cut 8' off her hair and made her cry (It was straw-like from chlorine and it was a wispy 4"). I can't take one step without it being questioned. These were actually complaints listed when he filed for custody.

BUT I really don't let it eat me up. As much as it annoys me, I know it's a symptom of his issues, not mine. I know that I'm a great mother and do my best to keep her out of the middle, even when he puts her there and even if it requires me to shut up.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Enjoli, your Ex is a d!ck.  There you go. You didn't even have have to pay me for that diagnosis. 

Wow, my STBXH is starting to look good by comparison. I'm sure he'd appreciate that. :rofl: At least he tells me I'm doing a good job with my son. 

My son is over there now. Nice to have the place to myself.


----------



## Houstondad

Think I might be making a little progress here. 
So my EX was set to arrive yesterday eve to stay a week with her dad and have our kids for the spring break visitation. Turns out her flight got delayed 4 hrs. So I'm getting texts about this "travesty" and if the kids want to go with my EX's dad to pick up their mom at 10:30pm instead of 6pm. I said no. It's too late. Call me in the morning and I'll bring the kids over. 

We go to the movies last night and have a ball. In the middle of the movie my phone blows up with texts and calls from both the kid's grandad and my EX. The texts say flight is cancelled and set to depart at 5am Saturday instead, do the kids want to get up at 6:45am to go with Ex's dad to pick her up,this flight cancellation is BS,etc. I turn off my phone and watch the rest of the movie.

I ask the kids if they want to go to the airport at 7am or see mommy at their grandfather's at 9am. They choose sleep(9am). So I call their grandfather to let him know what we will do. End of story.

Glad I put my foot down and made the decisions on this. And I felt indifferent to my Ex's plight and difficulties with the air travel. I'm a rescuer by nature. So I was delightfully surprised on this one.
A little indifference?


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Wow, not sure I should post here, but I am *that* Mom without her kiddo! Yep!

My STBXH is very much like EnjoliWoman's (though not officially diagnosed). I couldn't take it any more after 22yrs together. Told him I was leaving! He threatened me in front of our 14yo, and when she was at school he threatened to beat me to death (we lived rurally, not a lot of neighbors around to hear/help), I filed a complaint with the sheriff's dept.

I moved 350 miles away to another state; back where my family is. My parents are in their mid- to late-80s and need help. My daughter was originally going to move here with me (she does NOT respect her dad), but as an only child, her school friends are EVERYTHING to her...even more than a normal teen (whose friends mean everything). They are the brothers/sisters she's never going to have! She wants to finish high-school (2 more years) with them...I understand this. We talked before I left. She was afraid I would 'hate' her for not "choosing" me. I don't hate her, I understand her dilemma:

leaving with me would mean leaving her friends, her 'sisters/brothers' (it's a small town)
leaving with me would mean 'losing' her dad permanently; she'd only have ONE parent the rest of her life because he's so petty he would cut her out of his life...like his other daughters!
staying with him keeps her life semi-normal
staying with him keeps TWO parents in her life
She asked me *why* I couldn't just stay near them and rent an apartment, in which case she'd leave her dad immediately and come live with me. I told her it was NOT possible!

we lived OUTSIDE a town of 750 people (job opportunity = nil)
next town up has 1100 people (job opportunity = nil)
next town up has about 1800 people (job opportunity = nil)
next town up (about 45 min from her) is a college town...lots of low-paying retail/restaurant jobs. Not enough to survive on.
No jobs, plus no emotional support for me, plus 6 miles from her dad who threatened to kill me = NOTHING IN IT FOR ME! I explained how it would solve HER problems of NOT having to live with him and yet still being in the same school district, but it would NOT address MY problems.

She understood the reality and had to make a choice. I understand her choice, I wish it was different, but she's 15yo and not a little kid.

A few added points:

Her dad has 2 others daughters. One NEVER speaks to him (one time in the last 16yrs) and one who speaks to him about 1x/year. Our daughter could see how exactly he would WRITE HER OFF permanently if she left with me. How she would then have ONLY ME as a parent for the rest of her life. By remaining with him, she has him in her life to some extent (he is still checked-out and let's her run around TOO MUCH because he's too busy selfishly doing his own thing ALL THE TIME). She knows that *I* would NEVER cut her out of my life. She knows because I was essentially a single-parent for the first 14yrs of her life...and she realizes it!

She called me week before last ON A SCHOOL DAY at 8:00am?!? She wanted ME to call her school in Indiana (I live in Michigan) to tell them she's 'sick' today. She said her dad would not get up to call the school. She wasn't feeling well, had missed the bus, and wanted her dad to drive her to school because she had a test to take. He told her "just stay home" and wouldn't get up to call the school! WTF kind of parent does that?!? Um, my STBXH, her dad! So there I was calling from 350 miles away because my kid had no way to get to school! 


She loves him BECAUSE he's her father, not because he's loving or involved or gives a crap about anyone but himself. She's told me (unasked by me) that he's "an ass", "a d1ck", "an idiot" and "a jerk". I don't ENCOURAGE nor ASK her about him, but I'm not going to LIE to her and act as though her perceptions of him are erroneous. They're not. I WANT her to be able to trust her own judgment of people NOW and in the future (if *I* had been brought up to trust my judgment of people, I would have realized a lot sooner what an ass her dad is...and NOT married him!) 

She sees WHO he is; she works within the limits of what she has. As long as he is not physcally abusive to her (he had been VERBALLY abusive a few times before I left), she can tough it out IF SHE CHOOSES TO. I have made it clear that it is ALWAYS *her* choice. She is WELCOME to come live with me any time she wants to, and she knows that.
She has her own 'school' agenda and THAT is HER decision. She has learned that REAL LIFE involves choice. There isn't always a "good" choice and a "bad" choice. Sometimes it's two "acceptable" choices; sometimes it's "the best of a poor selection". Sorry, that's the way LIFE REALLY IS sometimes. Choosing "A" means NOT CHOOSING "B".

She'll be up for Spring Break next week bringing her best friend! We'll have a blast as I'm in suburban Detroit and there are HUNDREDS of things to do with the kids.

I left in May 2012. She came up in July 2012 for a week for her grandparents' anniversary. She came up at Xmas 2012 for a week. She is coming for the week of Spring Break 2013. She'll be up again this summer.

We text, phone, email, Skype, send pix, etc. I am FULLY aware of what's going on in her life (her father is NOT). I am working on making MYSELF a stronger, healthier person for the rest of my life.

I am not saying that ALL mothers who do NOT live with their children are misunderstood saints, but neither are we all selfish monsters. 

I love and respect my child enough to let her be happy in an environment that *I* do not believe is the BEST choice possible for her (for several reasons). But, dragging her out of state AGAINST HER WILL at her age, would have made EVERYONE'S life a living hell AND would have made living back there look like Nirvana. 

As it is, she lives there right smack in the middle of REALITY. Considering she'll be an ADULT in less than 3 years, that's not necessarily a BAD thing! She's had to GROW UP and take responsibility for herself.

...my 2 cents!


----------



## Freak On a Leash

You left your daughter with a man who threatened to kill you? :scratchhead: Why doesn't that sit well with me...You aren't going to like what I have to say but damn it, I'm going to say it. :rant: Rant ON:

What you are saying is utter crap. You are just making excuses for your own actions. If you can't live where your daughter goes to school then I think you should've taken her with you. She can make new friends. She is STILL only 15 and sometimes being a parent means you have to make hard decisions that are in the long run, better off for your child. 

I pulled my 15 year old son out a school he liked because no way was he living with his alcoholic father anymore and living with me meant he had to change schools. He didn't like it at ALL but he is 15 and still a minor child that needs to be parented and that's just what I did..and I'm glad I did it. Believe me, at the time I wasn't happy at having my son come back to live with me because he did indeed seem happier living with his father and we didn't get along. That's why we went to live with his father in the first place.

BUT his father started drinking again and not taking care of my son so it all fell apart and that's where I had to step in. He needed stability and security and he only gets that being with me. So I pulled rank and moved him back in with me, pulled him out of his school and am glad I did. 

He hated it at first but he adjusted and now seems much happier living with me. My son now seems to be grateful and happy to be here with me in a secure environment. We still disagree occasionally but I've made a greater effort to listen and respect his concerns and needs and he is really trying to pull his weight and not argue about everything with me so now we are actually doing really well, but it takes effort on both our parts. 

If your daughter loses her father she'd probably be better off. Better to have one good parent in her life then two bad and/or indifferent and neglectful ones. Her father sounds like seriously disturbed individual. He threatened physical violence to you and you were scared enough to leave. But you left her too! :slap:

How soon before the verbal abuse (which is bad in itself) that he is doing to her now turn physical? Who is going to step in and rescue her if that happens? You are 350 miles away in another state. Will her friends help her out? Or will she just wind up in the hospital and the state have to step in take her away because that's the most likely scenario right now. 

Right now your STBXH is neglecting her, which is bad enough. He wouldn't even get up to call her school or take her to school so she could take a test. He's pulling the same crap my husband did. Problem is, your in another state, not another town and you daughter is truly alone. Who is there to see to her well being and give a damn about her? Her high school friends?

You are sitting there talking about a child who is barely a teenager making choices and making it sound like it's all on her to realize and live with the consequences of her choices. :wtf: You really know nothing about teenagers, do you? Teenagers who have no guidance and feel like no one gives a damn about them do look for it by sleeping around, doing drugs, etc, etc. 

They aren't adults, they are still kids and their personalities and brains are still developing. They need PARENTS, not friends and all you want to do is be her buddy who texts her and takes her out for a good time when she visits you occasionally. That's good and all, but that's not _parenting_. And your STBXH is very good at walking away from being a parent when it suits him. What a combination you two are. In the end, it's that 15 year old child who will suffer. 

No one is playing the PARENT here. Your ex seems to be very good at blowing off his responsibilities and kids and you are just making excuses to cover up your guilt for moving away without your child. 

*"Parent" is not just a noun..it's a verb too. *

I think it's time for YOU to grow up and wake up and figure out where your priorities are and start doing your job as a parent. When you have a child THAT is your job. All the rest is just BS. Stop laying it all on your kid. You got a kid to raise so start doing it and don't worry about what your STBXH is doing. That's his problem. Do you really want to live the fact that you have basically walked away from and abandoned your child? 

Sorry this sounds harsh but it sounds like you need a big dose of reality here. :rant: Rant off.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Houstondad said:


> Think I might be making a little progress here.
> So my EX was set to arrive yesterday eve to stay a week with her dad and have our kids for the spring break visitation. Turns out her flight got delayed 4 hrs. So I'm getting texts about this "travesty" and if the kids want to go with my EX's dad to pick up their mom at 10:30pm instead of 6pm. I said no. It's too late. Call me in the morning and I'll bring the kids over.
> 
> We go to the movies last night and have a ball. In the middle of the movie my phone blows up with texts and calls from both the kid's grandad and my EX. The texts say flight is cancelled and set to depart at 5am Saturday instead, do the kids want to get up at 6:45am to go with Ex's dad to pick her up,this flight cancellation is BS,etc. I turn off my phone and watch the rest of the movie.
> 
> I ask the kids if they want to go to the airport at 7am or see mommy at their grandfather's at 9am. They choose sleep(9am). So I call their grandfather to let him know what we will do. End of story.
> 
> Glad I put my foot down and made the decisions on this. And I felt indifferent to my Ex's plight and difficulties with the air travel. I'm a rescuer by nature. So I was delightfully surprised on this one.
> A little indifference?


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup: You are making a LOT of progress. Awesome! Keep up the good work!


----------



## Houstondad

Hey SlowlyGW,
I'm probably a bit bias because of how I feel about absentee mothers. But if your husband was abusive, you should have taken your daughter out of that caustic environment too instead of leaving her behind. No jobs? I hope you aren't using that as an excuse for going to freakin' Detroit (because we all know Detroit is a mecca for jobs). Do you realize what you are teaching your daughter? That it's ok to run away and leave your kids behind with an abusive husband/father? I sure hopes she doesn't buy that load of ****, because I'll be damned if my kids grow up thinking that's ok.
I really hope you can turn things around and find a way to make it work for your daughter. If you think what it takes to be a parent is the occasional visit during the year and skyping, then you are grossly delusional.

I have never been abusive to my ex-wife. Never touched her. She left Houston and went to find work while living with her cousin in Minnesotta. She never tried looking for work here not because there wasn't any (Houston kicks ass when it comes to jobs). She was full of guilt, mental issues, seeking an OM and who the heck knows what else. Such a shame.


----------



## Conrad

Houstondad said:


> Think I might be making a little progress here.
> So my EX was set to arrive yesterday eve to stay a week with her dad and have our kids for the spring break visitation. Turns out her flight got delayed 4 hrs. So I'm getting texts about this "travesty" and if the kids want to go with my EX's dad to pick up their mom at 10:30pm instead of 6pm. I said no. It's too late. Call me in the morning and I'll bring the kids over.
> 
> We go to the movies last night and have a ball. In the middle of the movie my phone blows up with texts and calls from both the kid's grandad and my EX. The texts say flight is cancelled and set to depart at 5am Saturday instead, do the kids want to get up at 6:45am to go with Ex's dad to pick her up,this flight cancellation is BS,etc. I turn off my phone and watch the rest of the movie.
> 
> I ask the kids if they want to go to the airport at 7am or see mommy at their grandfather's at 9am. They choose sleep(9am). So I call their grandfather to let him know what we will do. End of story.
> 
> Glad I put my foot down and made the decisions on this. And I felt indifferent to my Ex's plight and difficulties with the air travel. I'm a rescuer by nature. So I was delightfully surprised on this one.
> A little indifference?


No backsliding this time.

She hasn't changed a bit. And, odds are, she never will.


----------



## Houstondad

It does feel pretty damn good. 
And you're right Conrad, no backsliding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnjoliWoman

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Wow, not sure I should post here, but I am *that* Mom without her kiddo! Yep!
> 
> My STBXH is very much like EnjoliWoman's (though not officially diagnosed).
> 
> She was afraid I would 'hate' her for not "choosing" me.


I totally get your situation even though others may not.

My ex, though abusive, puts our daughter on a pedestal. I NEVER worried about him being abusive to HER. And my ex would do the same thing if my daughter chooses me over him - he'd cut her out of his life. I won't make her do that - I've told her no matter what she does, I love her and she never has to worry about losing me. I'm positive he's pressuring her to come live with him. Probably at 14 they are hesitant but by the time she's 16 I'm sure he's going to press hard that the courts will go with what she wants. I fully expect it.

So I need to make sure I have a good career because she won't be with me forever and I can't help her if I'm not in a good position.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

I take NO OFFENSE at FreakOnALeash or HoustonDad; I know if *I* had read what YOU did, I would FEEL as you do.

Narcissism is a WHOLE other kettle of fish!

STBXH was NEVER abusive UNTIL I told him I was leaving, until I was physically LEAVING. They're kind of like the Wizard of Oz...they're fine as long as you don't pull the curtain back. They live a delusional life (they honestly believe EVERYONE envies them and wishes to be them) and 'leaving them' pulls the curtain back in their world. Getting a divorce means people will see STBXH as "not perfect", "not enviable" which attacks his ego and he seriously can't deal with it! 

So out of 23 YEARS he threatened violence the last 2-3 DAYS. He will not feel threatened again until/unless 15yo decides to leave him...thus exposing that he's "not perfect". As long as she stays, he's golden! In fact, EVERYTHING 'wrong' with our marriage can now (and has been) laid at MY feet!

I did not LEAVE my child behind. She chose to stay. I know many of you will disagree, so be it. Without knowing HER temperament, our family history, her father's temperament nor mine...it's easy to judge. She understands *WHY* I allowed her to stay there, I understand it, my family understands it. My family is VERY rigid and conservative and did not understand (like you) *HOW* this could be so...until we discussed it fully and they understand and concur.

If you think I don't know WHAT it takes to be a parent and am delusional, HoustonDad, YOU would be WRONG. Because my STBXH is NPD, he was completely DISENGAGED from raising our daughter. He refused to interact with her until she was about 12yo because it was, in HIS words, "BORING". Yeah! So, as you can imagine, I was virtually a 'single parent' to my child for over a decade! Now, as EnjoliWoman pointed out, she is on a pedastal because she is VERY pretty, gets good grades, has lots of friends (all of which reflects credit on HIM...in HIS mind!)

So my ONLY point in posting was to remind people that *SOMETIMES** things are NOT always as they seem*! We should not always jump to conclusions! 

Sometimes mothers/fathers who do NOT have custody (or are in child support arrears, or have a restraining order against them...could be FALSE, couldn't it?) are NOT ALWAYS the monsters they're portrayed as. *Sometimes, from the outside, we just don't get the full picture; especially if one of the parents is mentally diseased, or severely emotionally damaged*, or something more than just 'mean', 'mad', or 'getting even'.


----------



## Baseballmom6

Shooboomafoo said:


> I can try to take a look back and see where I contributed to the problem.. but thats all on me and up to me, becuase she simply says that I was "wonderful". I dont know what to take away from that.



Wow, I could have wrote that myself. Although I kicked out my WS for cheating (and eventually divorced him) all I could get out of him was "You did nothing wrong, it's just ME. You were a wonderful wife, mother, etc."

Well, if I was so wonderful why did he choose to cheat again and refuse to work on the marriage. After 27 years I feel like I at least deserved an explaination of what went wrong. 



Shooboomafoo said:


> It is hard for me to imagine reaching a point where seeing her and the dude that she had an affair with as something of value. They currently live like there was never a "me" in the picture, and its like I am left holding the bag for anger and resentment for the entire scenario...
> I dont know.. I dont like to think about it anymore.


I feel exactly the same way. My ex-husband and the woman he had the affair with are now living happily ever after. I get to see them go next door often to visit my ex-MIL. My ex acts like I never even existed (that hurts so bad). It also feels like his entire family has totally and completely accepted her in their life. Although his whole family tells me that I will always be a part of their family, somehow it does't feel that way. How can a family so readily accept the cheating wh#o#e into the family knowing that she was part of the cause of the breakup? I have to try really hard not to resent his whole family because of it. I feel so cheated by his actions.


----------



## Houstondad

SGW,
Maybe I'm missing the point. And please forgive me for portraying you in a certain light because I don't know you and I don't know your entire story.
And hopefully, you can give me a glimpse of my ex-wife's rationale for not being close to our kids, because I can only guess at this point since she hasn't explained really why.

I know her situation and yours are not the same (she cheated, she quit her job and left to "find herself" and feels happiness has been found in Minn). And my kids are younger than yours too.
What I have a hard time understanding is why you truly decided to live far away from your daughter. Not the excuse of caring for your parents, or being in fear of your abusive husband, or the lack of jobs in a small town. Why did you really leave? Because I still wouldn't move hundreds/thousands of miles away from my kids despite those circumstances.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Thanks for PM'g me, Houstondad.

It was good talking with you! Best wishes for you and your children! May you find yourselves in a much better place as this year progresses!


----------



## whitehawk

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I take NO OFFENSE at FreakOnALeash or HoustonDad; I know if *I* had read what YOU did, I would FEEL as you do.
> 
> Narcissism is a WHOLE other kettle of fish!
> 
> STBXH was NEVER abusive UNTIL I told him I was leaving, until I was physically LEAVING. They're kind of like the Wizard of Oz...they're fine as long as you don't pull the curtain back. They live a delusional life (they honestly believe EVERYONE envies them and wishes to be them) and 'leaving them' pulls the curtain back in their world. Getting a divorce means people will see STBXH as "not perfect", "not enviable" which attacks his ego and he seriously can't deal with it!
> 
> So out of 23 YEARS he threatened violence the last 2-3 DAYS. He will not feel threatened again until/unless 15yo decides to leave him...thus exposing that he's "not perfect". As long as she stays, he's golden! In fact, EVERYTHING 'wrong' with our marriage can now (and has been) laid at MY feet!
> 
> I did not LEAVE my child behind. She chose to stay. I know many of you will disagree, so be it. Without knowing HER temperament, our family history, her father's temperament nor mine...it's easy to judge. She understands *WHY* I allowed her to stay there, I understand it, my family understands it. My family is VERY rigid and conservative and did not understand (like you) *HOW* this could be so...until we discussed it fully and they understand and concur.
> 
> If you think I don't know WHAT it takes to be a parent and am delusional, HoustonDad, YOU would be WRONG. Because my STBXH is NPD, he was completely DISENGAGED from raising our daughter. He refused to interact with her until she was about 12yo because it was, in HIS words, "BORING". Yeah! So, as you can imagine, I was virtually a 'single parent' to my child for over a decade! Now, as EnjoliWoman pointed out, she is on a pedastal because she is VERY pretty, gets good grades, has lots of friends (all of which reflects credit on HIM...in HIS mind!)
> 
> So my ONLY point in posting was to remind people that *SOMETIMES** things are NOT always as they seem*! We should not always jump to conclusions!
> 
> Sometimes mothers/fathers who do NOT have custody (or are in child support arrears, or have a restraining order against them...could be FALSE, couldn't it?) are NOT ALWAYS the monsters they're portrayed as. *Sometimes, from the outside, we just don't get the full picture; especially if one of the parents is mentally diseased, or severely emotionally damaged*, or something more than just 'mean', 'mad', or 'getting even'.


Dunno why you bothered , makes perfect sense to me. And just because you and ex couldn't keep it going doesn't mean a thing , she'll have a totally different thing with him like me and my daughter, cept she's with her mum. 
I think it was very big of you not to kick up , you were thinking of her , shame more didn't do that.
Me I let my girl stay with her mum because she's only 11 , both females so I dunno just thought it might be better for her with mum, she's an only child too.
Sometimes I wish I didn't though , I miss her so much. It just seemed unthinkable to take her away from her mum though even though she was actually closer to me in many ways lately.
It was obviously going to all be very hard on her too so I just thought like most kids , they really need their mum when they're hurt.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Baseballmom6 said:


> My ex-husband and the woman he had the affair with are now living happily ever after. I get to see them go next door often to visit my ex-MIL. My ex acts like I never even existed (that hurts so bad). It also feels like his entire family has totally and completely accepted her in their life. Although his whole family tells me that I will always be a part of their family, somehow it does't feel that way. How can a family so readily accept the cheating wh#o#e into the family knowing that she was part of the cause of the breakup? I have to try really hard not to resent his whole family because of it. I feel so cheated by his actions.


That must really kill you inside.  I'd move. I couldn't take seeing that. I wouldn't even know how to deal with that situation except to move, it would rip me up so much. 

My STBXH did some awful things but I know that inside he's still a good man and he's trying now, which means a lot. I told him the other day "As long as you stay sober and I can see that you are really trying to put your life back together I'll support you." So I've let a lot of things go but if he'd cheated and I had to have that staring me in the face all the time..Oh man..I don't know how I'd deal with that except to escape. 

I really feel for you folks who are married one day and pretty much living your life day to day and then find out that your spouse has been with someone else, especially if there were no signs that anything was going on and it came as a surprise. 

I don't think much of people who cheat. I can almost always tell the guys who have cheated. They have this certain "attitude" about them. I was at a meetup event last weekend and there was this guy who wasn't with the group but just hanging with us, chatting all us women up. He was pretty good looking, funny and interesting to talk to and he seemed particularly interested in one woman. I could tell he got her phone number. When he left I said to her, "that dude is SO married, be careful."

Turns out the guy called her and did tell her he was married (I'll give him points for that) BUT then went on to say "would you want to get together anyway" (now I'm taking all the points away and THEN some!). She turned him down flat. Yep, that guy is someone's husband. Probably has kids too.

Isn't that just wonderful? A lot of women say "I wouldn't date someone who cheated because then they'd cheat on me." I agree with that but also I couldn't do it because somewhere out there is the wife and kids he ALSO cheated on and wrecked their lives as well. I don't want any part of that. 

It's a rough world out there in the dating world.


----------



## The-Deceived

Don't know if I will ever forgive, but I am getting closer and closer to being indifferent. It's easier not the give a flying f*ck when you're not living with her.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think you start by realizing that it's not necessary or required that you forgive anything. People are flawed humans and even when they behave poorly you can't do anything about it. Their behavior is for them to square, not you. The idea that you need to forgive anything relegates you to victim status and takes away your power, and that is not good for you; ironic really because it's suggesting that she personally wronged you when more then likely it's a character flaw on her part and she would have wronged anyone. Accept that your ex is who she is and you chose her, accept that her relationship with your kids will be between her and them, and accept that sometimes people just do crappy things that have nothing to do with you personally. I know of what I speak because I went through lots of crappy behavior with my exh, who took several years before he got to the point where he loved our kids more than he hated me. I paid him no mind and stayed out of the relationship with our kids, except to make sure they were safe (they were, he took care of them when he had them). Don't worry about her and you'll get there too.


----------



## whitehawk

Freak On a Leash said:


> That must really kill you inside.  I'd move. I couldn't take seeing that. I wouldn't even know how to deal with that situation except to move, it would rip me up so much.
> 
> My STBXH did some awful things but I know that inside he's still a good man and he's trying now, which means a lot. I told him the other day "As long as you stay sober and I can see that you are really trying to put your life back together I'll support you." So I've let a lot of things go but if he'd cheated and I had to have that staring me in the face all the time..Oh man..I don't know how I'd deal with that except to escape.
> 
> 
> 
> Q - Freak how come your support for him even matters anymore. Didn't you split years ago , it'd be new lives long ago then wouldn't it ?
> Or are you still friends, involved or what's the go ?
> Sorry Freak I've forgotten what happened with you guys and it'd be too hard to find .


----------



## Freak On a Leash

whitehawk said:


> [Q - Freak how come your support for him even matters anymore. Didn't you split years ago , it'd be new lives long ago then wouldn't it ?
> Or are you still friends, involved or what's the go ?.


We've been separated since December, 2010 but are still friendly and cordial. For awhile we tried to live apart but still act married but that didn't work at all. Nowadays we don't do much together but I can tell he still loves me. My son and I are pretty much all he has left in this world. He has no real family and he's no longer close with his friends. We're it. 

I still feel some love for him in a friendly manner but have NO interest in renewing a relationship with him beyond friends/platonic. But I actually enjoy conversing with him when I see him, which is becoming less and less frequent. It's not because of anything bad, it's just because our lives are headed in two separate directions. 

That said, I feel it's important that I support him in his efforts to remain sober. We are coparenting our 15 year old son and if he stays sober then he can be there for our son, which is good for our son and gives me a break from time to time...Then it's not all on me to raise him. Plus our son loves his father and needs and wants him in his life and I want that too..for my son's sake. 

An example of how we are dealing with some thins is this Easter Sunday. My daughter is coming home for the holiday and wants to make a dinner. I asked my son what he wants to do. First thing he said "I guess the 4 of us aren't going to do it?". I told him "No, that's not happening." He then asked if he could spend part of the day with his sister and I and have dinner with us and spend the other part of the day with his father. I told him "No problem" and said that we'd probably be eating earlier than later so he can go over to his dad's home after the meal. 

And that's pretty much how we are going to work things. My daughter wants no part of her father at all and I'm still gunshy from all the havoc he's wreaked on holidays in the past so that's how we are conducting things. Aside from holidays, it's pretty cut and dry. The longer his father is sober, the more time he gets to spend with my son and that's win-win IMO.

Hopefully he'll get a job soon and be able to kick in some financial support, which will DEFINITELY be a big plus because I'm feeling pretty squeezed financially being the sole source of support for both my kids. 

I can do one of two things..I can ride my STBXH hard and make his life miserable and possibly be a factor that sets him back to drinking or be supportive of him in the hopes that he'll remain sober, put his life back together and be a positive factor in our son's life, which spills over into MY life as well. 

It's all about being practical. Whatever anger or resentment I feel about the way my husband's behavior over the past 3 years isn't going to make things better in the future so there's no point in NOT being supportive. He's not a bad guy, he's an alcoholic who did some bad things and as long as he is trying his best to put his life back together and do the right thing then I'm there for him. If he goes back to drinking that that ends. That's pretty much what I've told him. 

My son has pretty much said the same thing to him so he knows what's at stake.


----------



## whitehawk

Ahh yeah right , thanks for explaining. Your being smart about all this Freak , best way to be isn't it.
Working with what you've got , everyone should go this way instead jacking up and cutting of their nose to spite their face and their kids, bs isn't it !
If you got on his case too much anyway it'd only all blow up and achieve nothing. Make it all worse if anything , who needs it.

I thought it'd been 10 yrs for you guys , dunno where I got that but anyway, a work in progress hey .

Good luck with things


----------



## reubsky

angelpixie said:


> *I'm not of the mindset that one HAS to forgive*. That doesn't mean one remains bitter or angry or resentful. I'm moving towards indifference. I believe I've already found much peace at this point.
> 
> Some have defined forgiveness as no longer letting someone's actions affect you. Just like with you, the things he's doing in my child's life are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm moving past the things between us, but his choices _are_ still affecting our son's life. And the major choice to walk away instead of even trying to work on things is the main reason for those changes in my son's life. Those are the things I'm having the hardest time with. I'm doing my best to work around them for my son, but I can't undo them or make up for them. I guess at some point, my son will make the decision to forgive us (or not) for not being able to be a healthy intact family for him, and for the things we do as single parents.


true, moreover forgive the cheating woman


----------



## Healer

I haven't forgiven, don't know if I can or want to. But I am indifferent. That makes life much easier.


----------

