# When Triggers Spiral Out of Control....



## working_together

Last week was probably the most difficult week since Dday. My husband was triggering horribly. We're not sure what exactly started it, he says I was pulling away, which could be true. I know he's still insecure as a result of my affair. I don't get mad if he calls me 10 times during the day, or sends endless texts and then worries if I don't answer right away, but he senses a little frustration I think. It can feel at times smothering, and I just need time to myself. He's afraid to leave me alone because of his own fear of what thinks could happen. He has this need to "get into my head" and know what I'm thinking. This mostly happens when triggers are full force.

So he feels me pulling away from him, and he immediately comes to the conclusion that I must be in contact with OM, and planning to move in with him since his wife (apparently) will kicking him out this month. Knowing this is a trigger for him, the whole month will be hell for him I think. No matter what I said to him he could not calm down and think rationally. I understand his fears, and tried to reassure him. He listened to every word I said, and then would pick out certain things that he felt were questionable. He then searched my phone, asked if I had deleted messages (which I didn't). I only delete when phone is full, and he's pretty much the only person I text with. He then finds nothing, heads to the computer, checks email, and as a last resort comes to the forum and reads all my posts (he reads sometimes) looking for something I may have shared about meeting OM. He then reads the one about sex that I wasn't comfortable writing about, he already knew about it, but it didn't help reading it. He flipped out, and basically said a lot of hurtful things..mostly stuff that I had done, but with the added little dig. All the while I am trying to be patient and listen, knowing he was triggering, knowing that it wouldn't last.

It came to a head Sat. night, he said he phoned about an apartment. I was shocked, and asked him if that was what he wanted, that we've come this far, and now give up?

We talked and I told him that I did not want him to leave, I loved him, and reminded that I am sorry for what I did. That it will never happen again, that it made me sick to see him this way. He finally broke down and cried, we both did. We got a lot out, and Sunday was much better.

So, my question is.....how do I help him manage his triggers? I've read some things, but nothing seems to help when he's in this type of state. I need to go over and hug him, but he pushes me away with his anger that's hard. I know I need to do it anyway.


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## morituri

Get him to go to counseling and preferably a counselor who specializes in helping betrayed spouses. I went to one for many months after discovering my ex-wife's affair and it helped me tremendously with helping me deal with the triggers. My counselor specialized in PTSD which helps considering that the trauma is shares many characteristics to the one soldiers experience out in the battlefield.


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## working_together

morituri said:


> Get him to go to counseling and preferably a counselor who specializes in helping betrayed spouses. I went to one for many months after discovering my ex-wife's affair and it helped me tremendously with helping me deal with the triggers. My counselor specialized in PTSD which helps considering that the trauma is shares many characteristics to the one soldiers experience out in the battlefield.


He sees his therapist on Thursday. She's great, and has a lot of knowledge of infidelity. He asked what he should talk to her about, I told him TRIGGERS.


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## working_together

What really scared me, was that on Sunday he immediately went into "Hystercal Bonding" mode. Like he needed to reclaim me all over again, that's how real the triggers he felt.


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## working_together

I forgot to add that all week he could "smell" OM in the house. Since he knows him, I guess he knows what he smells like. I was really creeped out with that. It was like a ghost was in our home.


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## that_girl

It's the process of the betrayal.

He can work through them in therapy (I am), but they will hit and sometimes they will hit hard. It's hard to explain unless you're in it at that moment.


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## warlock07

That Beowulf's post, where is it? I'll try to find it. Your husband needs to read it . Only one spouse working on R will not help the situation.


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## Almostrecovered

based on my own experience, when you have a good r with a remorseful spouse and things are going well it's like you are waiting for the hammer to drop again. It's the fear of losing what was now rebuilt (or being rebuilt)


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## that_girl

Almostrecovered said:


> based on my own experience, when you have a good r with a remorseful spouse and things are going well it's like you are waiting for the hammer to drop again. It's the fear of losing what was now rebuilt (or being rebuilt)


SO TRUE!

Although my husband didn't cheat, he DID LEAVE. It took me the majority of 3 months to really grasp that he's home for good.

The anxiety would get unreal, just thinking and waiting for that shoe to drop.

People who leave/cheat have NO IDEA what the other person goes through emotionally. Give us a break! Gawd...we don't "heal" on your schedule.


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## warlock07

Are you scared to upset him now ? When he goes into the Hysterical bonding mode, do you feel an obligation to go with it?


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## warlock07

Found the Beowulf's post. How he reacted to the affair initially applies to your husband. Linked here



> As dymo said my wife had an affair about 20 years ago. I can tell you it was not easy to overcome.
> 
> I am a very logical type of person. I tend to analyze things, break them down and solve them a piece at a time. Some would call it being cold and aloof but its just my nature. That was the problem in my marriage. Whenever my wife and I would confront an issue I would immediately go into problem solving mode and would completely bypass the emotional context that my wife was feeling. Eventually she became disillusioned with our relationship and felt that we really never bonded. In retrospect she did try to talk to me about it but my attitude was that was how I operated and she knew that before we got married.
> 
> Her affair started off typically. She was friends with another man and began to confide in him about the state of our marriage. He was married as well and he and his wife were also having problems. Their friendship grew and she said literally before either was aware of it they fell in love with one another. She said the affair became a powerful secret that she and the OM shared. It was the two of them against the world. Their love was so strong and special as if it were meant to be. Yup, she was addicted. A good friend of hers discovered what was going on. She tried to reason with my wife pointing out that while I wasn't a perfect man there was no such thing as a perfect man. She asked her how perfect her lover could be if he was married and having an affair with a married woman. Of course my wife said she didn't understand that their relationship was meant to be. Eventually my wife's friend gave up and cut off all ties with my wife.
> 
> One day as she was going to meet with the OM my wife stopped for a minute or two and watched me sitting on the floor playing with our son. I was thoroughly enjoying the time with him and he was in turn laughing and giggling as I played with him and tickled him occasionally. She said that it was then that she realized that I was not the cold and indifferent monster she had convinced herself that I was. She began to cry as she turned to leave to meet the OM. She said she knew then that she needed to end their affair.
> 
> When my wife met up with her AP she said that at first he went to hold her since he saw that she was upset. She put her arm out and immediately told him no. She said that they had to end it. She said she was going to tell me about it and beg for forgiveness. She wanted to work on our marriage. At first he was concerned that she was going to disclose the affair but after a few minutes he admitted that he was feeling very guilty and really wanted to end it as well. He said he wanted to work on his marriage too but didn't want to tell his wife what he's done because he said she wouldn't forgive him. My wife said that she would try to not tell me who he was but would not lie to me if I asked. She also said she told him that she would try to convince me to not tell his wife so that he could work on his marriage the way he thought was best but she also said she wouldn't stand in my way if I insisted. That was how they left it.
> 
> When she came home I had already put our son to bed. When she had left she told me she was going to visit the friend that had cut off all contact with her. Of course not knowing her friend had cut her off I believed her and when she came home I asked her how her visit had gone. She broke down and cried. I was visibly concerned and moved to hold her. When she recovered enough she told me that she hadn't gone to visit her friend but had gone to meet her lover. I immediately moved away from her and sat in shock and silence. She begged me to forgive her and let her make it up to me. I told her I didn't see how she could make it up to me or how I could ever trust her again. I was the clueless husband and she had made a fool out of me. When she finished I asked her who he was. She said she would prefer not to say but would tell me if she had to. I told her that if she didn't tell me she could pack up and leave right then. She told me. I asked her how long it had been going on. Did she love him. All the questions one would think of. She answered them all without hiding. I told her I needed time to think about all this. I packed a small bag and went to stay in a hotel room for a few days.
> 
> While we were apart I began to think about everything. I didn't have access to a site like this so I had to try to figure it out on my own. I decided to give her another chance but she would do things my way and would do everything I said without question. If she wavered I would quickly divorce her. In short I would test her and if she passed we would stay together. I didn't realize it then but I was hoping she failed enough to give me a reason to leave her for good. I really wasn't sure I had the resolve to forgive her and probably figured that if I waited long enough she'd mess up and I could divorce her with a clean conscience.
> 
> I went home and told her how it was going to have to be if I gave her another chance. I made sure to put such harsh conditions on her that I never figured she would argue that I was trying to control her and was being unreasonable. She surprised me by agreeing to all of it. The one sticking point she had was that I wanted to tell her lover's wife about what they had done. She tried to explain that she had promised him that there wouldn't be any interference in his marriage as he tried to reconnect with his wife. I thought I found my loophole and said if she didn't go along with it and confront his wife with me we were done. She said she would do whatever it took to fix things including calling his wife if it was necessary.
> 
> The next day we called his wife but found out he had already confessed everything to her and they were going to try to work it out as well.For the next few months my wife did almost everything right. She did slip up a few times but nothing that would cause me to question her remorse and desire to reconcile. She did have contact with the OM twice and didn't tell me. This was the closest we came to ending the R. But she explained that she didn't tell me because she didn't want to cause me more pain. I told her that since she broke our trust she had to be completely honest with me even if it hurt me. I then contacted the OM's wife and she confirmed that they had spoken but she knew that nothing had happened and it was probably just a mild setback. In retrospect the OM's wife was dealing with it better than I was. She was genuinely trying to reconcile while I was really just waiting for an excuse to end the marriage. She explained that her H and my W had developed a very strong bond and just like an alcoholic or drug addict it is expected that there will be occasional slips. It was because of her words that I let it slide.
> 
> *Several months later my wife was still doing all the correct things. She was honest, reassuring, transparent, loving, affectionate, etc. But in my typical logical way I had in effect buried my emotions while waiting for her to screw up. Some months later my emotions came boiling out. I released a tirade against my wife that shocked her to her very core. I said every hurtful thing my injured heart could imagine. I effect I turned into Mr. Hyde. Of course my wife took everything I dished out because she believed she deserved it for betraying me. And the more she took the more I gave. This went on for more than a week until finally she broke down, curled up in a ball and wouldn't move. I realized that I had broken her spirit and her mind and it was only at that moment that I came to my senses and realized what I'd done. To this day I still can't believe the things I said to her. Yes, she had done a terrible thing but what I did in response was also unforgivable.
> *
> 
> *After that we both shut down for a time. She was afraid I would attack her again and truth be told so was I. Gradually we began to talk and I tried to reassure her that all the things I had said were not true. She didn't believe me and frankly I wouldn't have believed me either. Finally I decided that the only way to address what I'd done was to write her a heartfelt letter. I explained that in response to her hurting me I had said everything I could think of to hurt her. In my pain I began to see her not as my wife but a caricature constructed out of hate, anguish and fear. She ceased being a woman who had made a grievous error and was trying to rectify it and became a horrible creature who had crushed my heart and stolen my future. She became a nightmare that had killed my loving wife. I explained that in my grief I attacked this false construct of my imagination hoping that I could restore my life to some semblance of normalcy. In short, I was temporarily insane.
> *
> After that I went about rebuilding my relationship by showing her that I was willing to work just as hard on our relationship as she was and already had been. I knew that I had broken her down so it was my responsibility to build her back up again. I showed her in many small but important ways that I loved her and valued her. It was extremely difficult and it was the hardest thing I have ever done but today I am so thankful that we both committed to each other and did what was right for us. I can also tell you that we still have to continually feed and support our marriage. I consider that a marriage is a living breathing thing and needs to be treated as such. When I read someone post on here that BS should say that as long as there is three in the marriage there is no marriage I have to chuckle a little. My wife and I came to the understanding that in our marriage at least there is always three. There is me, her and us and while each of us can feed and nurture ourselves we both have to feed and nurture us.


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## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Are you scared to upset him now ? When he goes into the Hysterical bonding mode, do you feel an obligation to go with it?


No I'm not scared to upset him. I actually lost my temper on Sat. I just yelled "leave me alone". It's hard though, I'll tell him exactly where I'm going eg. grocery store, and I'll say I'll be back in 45 min. He'll then respond that I don't have to go into details like that, but then other times he needs them. I can't win.

I don't think I feel "obligated" to have sex with him, I want to feel close to him, on the other hand I feel guilty if I reject him. I feel like I rejected him so much during the affair, and with him moving out. There have been times where I have not been in the mood, and have said it in a manner that he wouldn't feel like he was unwanted, you know that discarded feeling BS's have.


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## that_girl

But this is what happens  THIS is the outcome of your cheating or leaving or whatever.

He doesn't trust you any more. THAT is the reality.

He is scared shetless of it happening again. THAT is his reality.

Every 'weird' thing you do...did you stay outside emptying the trashcans too long? Did you go to the garage a little too long to JUST be getting a hammer? Did the market trip take a LITTLE too long? These are all the things plaguing his mind and he hates it but he can't help it.

THIS is what happens when you choose to do what you did.

I am not condemning you but he is on such a rollercoaster right now of wanting to trust you, not wanting to trust you...in a limbo with himself. You "can't win" because he's not always thinking the same thing.

I was where your husband is now. I sometiems go back there too. Can't help it. My therapist taught me ways to talk myself down...but it still comes up.


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## working_together

@Warlock,

Yeah, it's his way or the highway that much is true. He didn't do the 180 on me at the beginning, and it drives him nuts that he didn't, he said I really needed it. He did his own version.


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## warlock07

> I forgot to add that all week he could "smell" OM in the house. Since he knows him, I guess he knows what he smells like. I was really creeped out with that. It was like a ghost was in our home.


Could it be because he associated the house work(and the smell of it) with the OM? 

I also bolded out some relevant parts in Quoted message. Maybe your husband can read that.


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## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Could it be because he associated the house work(and the smell of it) with the OM?
> 
> I also bolded out some relevant parts in Quoted message. Maybe your husband can read that.


Maybe, I know it took him a long time to go down to the basement, even now he hardly goes down there.

I'll get hubby to read the story tonight. Thanks


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## Dadof3

probably wouldn't hurt to find a new place to live either. Not that the housing market would make it easy for you to sell your home, but I can't imagine living there were it all happened is making it easy for him to trigger.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Sounds like your asking about treating the symptoms (triggers?), rather than the cause... 

As I think Mori may have mentioned, Its pretty obvious your husband has a pretty serious post tramatic stress disorder. 

Everything you've said is textbook. I recall reading some of your other posts and thinking the same thing. Is he seeking treatment? 

Some general overview on PTSD and treatment suggestions (how to prevent "triggers") are here


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## dingerdad

that_girl said:


> But this is what happens  THIS is the outcome of your cheating or leaving or whatever.
> 
> He doesn't trust you any more. THAT is the reality.
> 
> He is scared shetless of it happening again. THAT is his reality.
> 
> Every 'weird' thing you do...did you stay outside emptying the trashcans too long? Did you go to the garage a little too long to JUST be getting a hammer? Did the market trip take a LITTLE too long? These are all the things plaguing his mind and he hates it but he can't help it.
> 
> THIS is what happens when you choose to do what you did.
> 
> I am not condemning you but he is on such a rollercoaster right now of wanting to trust you, not wanting to trust you...in a limbo with himself. You "can't win" because he's not always thinking the same thing.
> 
> I was where your husband is now. I sometiems go back there too. Can't help it. My therapist taught me ways to talk myself down...but it still comes up.



This is exactly where I am. I feel sorry for my wife sometimes because she wants to help me but I dont know what to tell her. Sometimes I want to hold her and talk, sometimes have sex, sometimes be mad at her, sometimes I just want to run away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

You need to get him treatment for Past traumatic stress disorder. His psyche is completely burnt out following the affair and it needs significant time to heel and I think he's now developed severe anxiety issues. Wear it out as much as you can, he will act erratic, say things he doesn't mean and in general make your life hell but that's to be expected following the trauma he underwent.


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## lascarx

Separate and set him free, that's what I think you should do. Give him a year to decide. Let him live as a free person while you wait with the uncertainty that he might call any day and say he can do better than you after all. You talk that you want to be a true penitent, now walk the walk.

If in the meantime you decide you don't want him, or you fall for someone else, you'll finally have the real name for what you see in the mirror and that it wasn't meant to be anyhow. He'll have to get over it either way.


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## FourtyPlus

Just help your hubby through this, you will be glad you did and so will he. I went through a very similar phase with my husband, it was hell but it gets better, especially if he gets counseling. Just hang in there!


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## strugglinghusband

Triggers are deff HELL!!! I feel alot of what your husband is feeling too, good days,bad days...seems like the bad days are coming more frequently, my wife dosent know what to do either....even when I tell what I need, she dosent seem to be able to get the idea that she needs to help me thru this.

Unlike you it seems like my wife wants to rug sweep, doesent want to really talk about our current issues or the pain that I caused in the past,(another rug sweep, which aided us to getting where we are now) which I will not allow any longer....
Trying to get her to understand that we can not go around our problems, we have to face them head on and work thru them.....

I'm praying for you and your husband working, I truly hope you two can work thru this, your posts have helped me in so many ways....


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## rrrbbbttt

Just a thought, buy him a heavy punching bag with the gloves. I use mine a lot. It is a coping mechanism for Triggers for me.


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## InRecoveryInNC

Here’s the way I see it and I don’t want to sound too harsh…. But first your H will never be able to fully get through this until he is ready. He can talk to his counselor everyday about everything that triggers his emotions but until he is able to forgive (never forget, because what ever the cause of the infidelity needs to always be remember so as not to go back to the place that lead to the event) and he is willing to let things go and move on, it will never work out with the two of you still being together. I don’t say this as an excuse but I have been there and I am still trying to recover. We are 16 months out from D-day and there are days that my H (who had the PA) can do everything I ask, and everything he should be doing but I still get ‘crazy’ and start to have all of these random thoughts and feelings and sometimes it even takes a few days for me to get through it. However, here’s where I think some things need to be taken into consideration. Just because you have dealt with your issues and seem to be ok with what you done doesn’t mean he is. Remember you have had more time to deal with your choices (from the day you decided to go outside of the marriage, you started dealing with what you were doing.) Your H on the other hand has only had from the time that d-day happened. You have worked through many emotions already and he still has many to go through. Things will either get better and you two will end up in a happy marriage or, and this might be hard to deal with, he may not be able to actually forgive you for what happened and you two might go your separate ways. I don’t know your story and as in most cases the LS has something to do with the DS choosing to go outside of the marriage so by no means am I saying this all lies on your shoulders but the one choice he didn’t make and he had no control of was to have his wife step outside of the marriage. Sometimes, very drastic measures must be taken and if your affair actually happened in the home you share, it might make sense to leave the home. It won’t be a quick decision, but taking the steps to get this going may be something that is necessary. And just know you may be doing everything he needs and asks you to do but there are going to be days (sometimes several at a time) that his emotions are out of control and you just need to love him through them.


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## working_together

lascarx said:


> Separate and set him free, that's what I think you should do. Give him a year to decide. Let him live as a free person while you wait with the uncertainty that he might call any day and say he can do better than you after all. You talk that you want to be a true penitent, now walk the walk.
> 
> If in the meantime you decide you don't want him, or you fall for someone else, you'll finally have the real name for what you see in the mirror and that it wasn't meant to be anyhow. He'll have to get over it either way.


Gee thanks for your support.....

You think I'm all "talk?"

I've told him that if the pain is too much that I will let him go just so his life would be easier. I can't bear to see him suffer like this.


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## working_together

HurtingInNC said:


> Here’s the way I see it and I don’t want to sound too harsh…. But first your H will never be able to fully get through this until he is ready. He can talk to his counselor everyday about everything that triggers his emotions but until he is able to forgive (never forget, because what ever the cause of the infidelity needs to always be remember so as not to go back to the place that lead to the event) and he is willing to let things go and move on, it will never work out with the two of you still being together. I don’t say this as an excuse but I have been there and I am still trying to recover. We are 16 months out from D-day and there are days that my H (who had the PA) can do everything I ask, and everything he should be doing but I still get ‘crazy’ and start to have all of these random thoughts and feelings and sometimes it even takes a few days for me to get through it. However, here’s where I think some things need to be taken into consideration. Just because you have dealt with your issues and seem to be ok with what you done doesn’t mean he is. Remember you have had more time to deal with your choices (from the day you decided to go outside of the marriage, you started dealing with what you were doing.) Your H on the other hand has only had from the time that d-day happened. You have worked through many emotions already and he still has many to go through. Things will either get better and you two will end up in a happy marriage or, and this might be hard to deal with, he may not be able to actually forgive you for what happened and you two might go your separate ways. I don’t know your story and as in most cases the LS has something to do with the DS choosing to go outside of the marriage so by no means am I saying this all lies on your shoulders but the one choice he didn’t make and he had no control of was to have his wife step outside of the marriage. Sometimes, very drastic measures must be taken and if your affair actually happened in the home you share, it might make sense to leave the home. It won’t be a quick decision, but taking the steps to get this going may be something that is necessary. And just know you may be doing everything he needs and asks you to do but there are going to be days (sometimes several at a time) that his emotions are out of control and you just need to love him through them.


I'm not ok with what I've done. I was in a lot of denial at the beginning, not realizing the gravity of the destruction I have caused. I am guilt ridden, and ashamed of what I have done.

There are good days and bad days like you say, I agree. I'm not sure separation is the answer though.


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## InRecoveryInNC

No implication that you are ok with your choice only that you have had more time to deal with it...

I personally say keep fighting until there is no more fight left in you. I don't know how long you have been together (sorry if you stated that in earlier posts) but for me I have been with my husband for 26 years of marriage and 29 years altogether. The pain that caused his hurt to go outside of the marriage took years to get there, the pain he caused by going outside of the marriage will probably take years to recover from. My H made a similar statement to me that he would leave now if I didn't think I could ever truly forgive him or if the pain was so hard to bear, but for me, I had to make the decision to want to work through it but he also has to take the good with bad. He enjoys when things are going well and he too suffers when my days are bad, but that is part of what is necessary for recovery. Just continue to remind him daily you want him to be happy whatever that might be.


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## working_together

I think I'm just finally breaking down, as though everything is really sinking in now. I'm big at stuffing my emotions, I don't want to bother anyone. This is a big problem, and then it all comes to a head, and I end up cracking.

The last couple of days have been hard for my husband, and I feel sick that he's worried about me like this. He's anxious, and calling every half hour worried that "I'm going to do something", I keep reassuring him that I'm not, that things have just sunk in, and the pain of what has happened to us just overwhelms me at times. We're both very sensitive people and we both know when each of us is not happy, we not only feel it, but we react to it.

Last night I went out with a friend for coffee, and on the way I became disoriented, just for a min and got lost. It's just this weird feeling I have, one minute I'm feeling "flat", the next, I just burst into tears.

The other thing is, I started a stop smoking medication last week, and I'm wondering if I'm feeling the side effects.


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## TBT

To me triggers are the way my mind reminds me to keep up my emotional defenses when it perceives a threat,no matter how subtle it may be.To let someone completely back inside the perimeter of my emotions is one of the hardest things I have had to deal with.Though I left my marriage behind there have been situations in newer relationships that triggered emotional wariness because they were similar to what happened when betrayed in my marriage.

I hope you and your husband make it through this,as from your posts it is apparent how remorseful you are and how much you are striving to make your marriage whole again.

Going to therapy helped me some as do these boards when I read how both the wayward and the BS deal with the aftermath.


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## warlock07

You mentioned that OM broke off with his wife. Is this the reason why your husband has become much more paranoid? Is there anything in particular that is triggering him(other than you obviously). He seems to be losing it. Maybe a week long vacation or a couples retreat?


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## working_together

TBT said:


> To me triggers are the way my mind reminds me to keep up my emotional defenses when it perceives a threat,no matter how subtle it may be.To let someone completely back inside the perimeter of my emotions is one of the hardest things I have had to deal with.Though I left my marriage behind there have been situations in newer relationships that triggered emotional wariness because they were similar to what happened when betrayed in my marriage.
> 
> I hope you and your husband make it through this,as from your posts it is apparent how remorseful you are and how much you are striving to make your marriage whole again.
> 
> Going to therapy helped me some as do these boards when I read how both the wayward and the BS deal with the aftermath.


He told me last night it's as though if he lets "his guard down" he might be hurt again. In some respects he doesn't want to let go.


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## working_together

warlock07 said:


> You mentioned that OM broke off with his wife. Is this the reason why your husband has become much more paranoid? Is there anything in particular that is triggering him(other than you obviously). He seems to be losing it. Maybe a week long vacation or a couples retreat?


When OM called weeks ago, he said his wife was throwing him out after x-mas. he also said he was getting an apartment in January, so yeah, this is bothering my husband. He still believes to some extent that I will go back to him. Although he says it's only 10 percent. It's enough to trigger him tho. We also have to go to court sometime in the future and sue him for the work he never finished in our basement. Hubby is afraid he might harm him.


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## TBT

He let his guard down with you already and it caused him tremendous pain.So he's struggling to do it again when his mind's natural inclination is to protect himself.The struggle to me shows he obviously loves you and is trying to find a way to let go.He,at the very least needs time.


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## Almostrecovered

Chantix can definitely set you off in some weird emotions (dreams are really vivid too sometimes)


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## InRecoveryInNC

working_together said:


> When OM called weeks ago, he said his wife was throwing him out after x-mas. he also said he was getting an apartment in January, so yeah, this is bothering my husband. He still believes to some extent that I will go back to him. Although he says it's only 10 percent. It's enough to trigger him tho. We also have to go to court sometime in the future and sue him for the work he never finished in our basement. Hubby is afraid he might harm him.


You definitely need to find a way that you have *no contact *for any reason with the OM. He should not be contacting you for *ANY* reason, as this will always be an issue for your H and it really should be for you too! Find another contractor or someone else he works with to finish anything he may need to finish. And, if you've got legal issues that need to be resolved, have him communicate with your attorney only. *You have to cut ALL contact and ties to this guy or your H will never be able to fully get over your affair.*


----------



## working_together

InRecoveryInNC said:


> You definitely need to find a way that you have *no contact *for any reason with the OM. He should not be contacting you for *ANY* reason, as this will always be an issue for your H and it really should be for you too! Find another contractor or someone else he works with to finish anything he may need to finish. And, if you've got legal issues that need to be resolved, have him communicate with your attorney only. *You have to cut ALL contact and ties to this guy or your H will never be able to fully get over your affair.*


We do not have contact. It's a long story...but basically I ended it in Feb. We sent an exposure letter to the wife in December. OM then called me, I shouldn't have taken the call...bad decisiion. He told me she was kicking him out, I laughed sarcastically and said, don't worry if you're still there after everything that was in the letter, you're not going anywhere. I was cold with him. but non the less should not have taken the call. 

Hubby will be going to court and sent a registered letter stating what will occur, and that he is to not have any contact with me, only my husband. he never responded in order to make arrangements for payment. I paid someone to finish some of the work, he will be a witness. 

Full steam ahead.


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## InRecoveryInNC

You sound like you are making progress but just have had some bad days while you both are still working things out. This is very natural.

Just keep things going and working toward your recovery. Give your H time to come around, just remember it will happen on his timing and not yours...


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## CH

And that's the price we pay for spreading our legs or sticking our things into places they don't belong.

We never know if one day, even after a supposedly good and maybe even great effort at R, if our spouses will just say screw this I'm out.

Remember, if your husband cheated would you have been so forgiving. The sad fact is that cheaters seem to think they're entitled to being taken back because we screwed up.

But if they were to cheat on us, F this, boot to the ass and keep your cheating @ss moving on down the damn road.

All we can do is work hard to make sure we don't add any other excuse for them to kick us out the door one day. But they have the right to do it anytime they want.

The one post that i keep going back to is struggling4ever..

11 DAMN years he put up the face of happiness of his wife being back. 11 years he thought he was doing the right thing. 11 years, he finally had the perfect wife he wanted.

But guess what, he's thinking it was probably 11 years of life he wasted on a cheater, 11 years of kicking his nuts over and over and over seeing her in front of him. 11 years of smiling when he wanted to throw himself off a cliff and get rid of the pain that will never go away because he sees his cheating wife 24/7 and it's always a trigger.

We are the trigger!!! We will always be the trigger!!! There is nothing else that causes it!!!!

Could you stand to look at his face knowing he's buried his head between another woman's leg or knowing that another one sucked him dry and drank all his man juice? Sorry to be blunt but we signed up for this when we cheated.

And as I've stated, the best we can do is work hard to make sure we don't add any other excuse for them to finally say get out.

BTW, I try hard but I have a fault in that I love playing games (wow, now SWTOR) and how she puts up with this even after all I've done is beyond me sometimes. I guess she's a great person and better person for putting up with me. No I don't play 24/7 and know my limits now but sometimes she does get a little aggravated when i don't come when she calls the 1st time.


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## Dexter Morgan

working_together said:


> So, my question is.....how do I help him manage his triggers?


You don't. Triggers don't usually need a reason to happen other than the vision of you riding another man pops into his head.

Only way to get rid of the triggers are to get rid of the visions. And sorry, that won't happen. That is the life you banished him to when you cheated.

Now as time goes on, will the vision become less frequent? Probably, but they'll never go away completely.




> I need to go over and hug him, but he pushes me away with his anger that's hard. I know I need to do it anyway.


When was Dday? If it was within a year, then of course he is still going to get angry here and there. Later, it may turn into him just sucking it up and bottling up his feelings. But for now, he is angry, and understandably so. Nothing you can really do about it but keep telling him you love him and nothing like that will ever happen again (even though he'd be correct to think that is a load of bunk)


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## Dexter Morgan

cheatinghubby said:


> We are the trigger!!! We will always be the trigger!!! There is nothing else that causes it!!!!


Exactly. Which is why I divorced my wife. She was the cause of the pain, therefore she had to go.


----------



## InRecoveryInNC

Cheatinghubby,

I thought the same thing when I read his post and because I am only 16 months in, I still wonder some days if I too one day will decide I am not ok with the way things went down and I am not going to be able to truly forgive.

But I am the only one who knows me and what thoughts I have and whether or not I can allow myself to move forward. Just as long as my H keeps trying, I believe, at this moment, we will make it through, but I don't know this with certainty!!!


----------



## working_together

Dexter Morgan said:


> You don't. Triggers don't usually need a reason to happen other than the vision of you riding another man pops into his head.
> 
> Only way to get rid of the triggers are to get rid of the visions. And sorry, that won't happen. That is the life you banished him to when you cheated.
> 
> Now as time goes on, will the vision become less frequent? Probably, but they'll never go away completely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When was Dday? If it was within a year, then of course he is still going to get angry here and there. Later, it may turn into him just sucking it up and bottling up his feelings. But for now, he is angry, and understandably so. Nothing you can really do about it but keep telling him you love him and nothing like that will ever happen again (even though he'd be correct to think that is a load of bunk)


Dday was January of last year, we R. Feb 15.

He has told me that sometimes he gets angry because he wants me to feel his pain, but also wants to make sure that I won't forgot so I don't cheat on him again. I guess it makes sense. I've told him that because of the consequences I would never do this again, and I mean it. The problem is that all it takes is one time, and yeah, he'll always have reminders of what happened, it's the working through them we have to work on.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

working_together said:


> Dday was January of last year, we R. Feb 15.


Then it is still very fresh to him. A year is nothing.




> He has told me that sometimes he gets angry because he wants me to feel his pain, but also wants to make sure that I won't forgot so I don't cheat on him again. I guess it makes sense. I've told him that because of the consequences I would never do this again, and I mean it.


Wrong answer actually. You are basically saying you won't cheat again because of the consequences. This tells him it isn't because you don't want to gratify yourself with another man again, you just don't want the fallout.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> Dday was January of last year, we R. Feb 15.
> 
> He has told me that sometimes he gets angry because he wants me to feel his pain, but also wants to make sure that I won't forgot so I don't cheat on him again. I guess it makes sense. I've told him that because of the consequences I would never do this again, and I mean it. The problem is that all it takes is one time, and yeah, he'll always have reminders of what happened, it's the working through them we have to work on.


Working, I don't have any answers for you, except to always, in every way, and by any means, put his needs first. I don't mean to "suck it up" or be a doormat, I mean to learn HOW to empathize with him, recognize when something is triggering him, and talk, talk, talk. Make sure he knows what is in your mind, always, keep no, AND I MEAN NO, SECRETS FROM HIM.....EVER. Remember, the OM is your enemy, now and forever. I am in your husband's shoes, and I finally realized that , no matter how remorseful she is, or what she does, I will never look at my wife with true love, in my heart, anymore. Some BS's can, some can't. I truly hope that your's can.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

working_together said:


> He told me last night it's as though if he lets "his guard down" he might be hurt again.


I can definitely relate to this. Being cheated on definitely does something to a person.

In some people, it makes them insecure and clingy. In others, like me, it makes us put a wall up. We vow never again to be played for a fool. Sounds like this is what your husband is doing. And if thats the case, then he will forever man up and always have a certain level of suspicion where you are concerned. Can you handle that? If you want to stay with him, you'll have to deal with it because its what you dealt him.


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## CH

For me the smell thing the husband is going through is a huge red flag. It's a mark of territory for males. His territory has been intruded upon and marked up by another male.

I truly hope your husband has a huge heart like my wife to truly make your M work. I know you're truly sorry for what you did to him but until we go through what they've gone through, we have nothing to complain about. Unless there's abuse, but that's another story.

Like Dexter said, the only way to help him get rid of the triggers is to get rid of the cheater. I wonder back then (and sometimes today) when my wife wakes up in the middle of the night from a bad image and sees me sleeping there, does she want to:

1) Hold me and hug me for still being with her and changing back to the husband she used to have

2) Or put a pillow over my head and press down really hard....

Yeah, for a couple of weeks I was pretty paranoid that I wouldn't be waking up in the morning.....Not that she would have hurt me but she made some comments (out of anger and hurt) that just made me a little bit scared.


----------



## skip76

working_together said:


> No I'm not scared to upset him. I actually lost my temper on Sat. I just yelled "leave me alone". It's hard though, I'll tell him exactly where I'm going eg. grocery store, and I'll say I'll be back in 45 min. He'll then respond that I don't have to go into details like that, but then other times he needs them. I can't win.
> 
> I don't think I feel "obligated" to have sex with him, I want to feel close to him, on the other hand I feel guilty if I reject him. I feel like I rejected him so much during the affair, and with him moving out. There have been times where I have not been in the mood, and have said it in a manner that he wouldn't feel like he was unwanted, you know that discarded feeling BS's have.


I have pretty much read everything you have written here. These last posts seem very selfish and unloving. Sure you mask it with some throw in comments about being sorry but I think you really need to look deep inside and see what feelings you have for this man. You might have to end this so he can feel what it is liked to be desired. I myself could not go forward with you if I read these last posts by you. And you said he reads this. I hate pity sex as I am sure he does. He just wants to be wanted. I would want to be lusted after like the om was. You make him sound like a burden. What has it been only a few months now. Geez
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## working_together

Badblood said:


> Working, I don't have any answers for you, except to always, in every way, and by any means, put his needs first. I don't mean to "suck it up" or be a doormat, I mean to learn HOW to empathize with him, recognize when something is triggering him, and talk, talk, talk. Make sure he knows what is in your mind, always, keep no, AND I MEAN NO, SECRETS FROM HIM.....EVER. Remember, the OM is your enemy, now and forever. I am in your husband's shoes, and I finally realized that , no matter how remorseful she is, or what she does, I will never look at my wife with true love, in my heart, anymore. Some BS's can, some can't. I truly hope that your's can.


Thanks, I really am trying, I don't keep anything from him, he even reads my posts. Knows I have a couple people I pm too. It's all out there for him to see.

He just loved me so much before, protected me from any form of pain I received, supported every choice I made in the last 25 years, and to just give it up for an ass$ole, he can't understand.


I won't be starting any new threads anyway, it's useless.


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## Badblood

working_together said:


> Thanks, I really am trying, I don't keep anything from him, he even reads my posts. Knows I have a couple people I pm too. It's all out there for him to see.
> 
> He just loved me so much before, protected me from any form of pain I received, supported every choice I made in the last 25 years, and to just give it up for an ass$ole, he can't understand.
> 
> 
> I won't be starting any new threads anyway, it's useless.


Working, I think the main sticking point that people have is that , at one time, you chose the OM over your husband, and humiliated him. They aren't so much against you as feeling sorry for your husband.. They can't believe that you are truly committed to your husband, and are in love with him, after doing this. They still think you are being, to some degree , self-centered. Personally , I think you are doing the best you can.


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## working_together

I guess I'm a bit "off" lately, maybe overly sensitive, sometimes frustrated.

Maybe it's the quitting smoking and the meds I'm taking for it with all the crazy side effect that I'm having, nightmares of blood gushing from my legs, watching myself dead in my dream, and my emotions are out wack even more so than before.

fun


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## warlock07

What kind of medication are you taking for the smoking?

Edit: Are you a troll?


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## working_together

Hope you're joking about the troll thing...grrrrr

Champix, my SIL tried it, said it worked. I quit for 6 years prior to last year, then with the stress I started again. I'm one of those "closet smokers".


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## TBT

working_together said:


> I guess I'm a bit "off" lately, maybe overly sensitive, sometimes frustrated.
> 
> Maybe it's the quitting smoking and the meds I'm taking for it with all the crazy side effect that I'm having, nightmares of blood gushing from my legs, watching myself dead in my dream, and my emotions are out wack even more so than before.
> 
> fun


Just because you're a WS doesn't preclude you from feeling sensitive and frustrated at times.You made a terrible choice but you're still a human being who is capable of being hurt as well.So vent when you need to and ask for help when you're searching for answers in understanding the whys and wherefores of R with your spouse.Just don't lose sight of your goal and keep that uppermost in your mind.

Your husband agreed to R with you so you must realize it matters to him.You come into R with trust in your husband and he has to deal with his hurt and frustrations without that same trust being available to him.

Maybe look for some of your answers in comments you made in threads to other WW.From what I've seen of them,you really cut to the chase.

Hoping the best for both of you.

PS If you can quit smoking at such a highly stressful time with or without meds than more power to you.Sure wish I could.


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## morituri

So regarding your husband's counseling, are the two of you seeking one that specializes with the ordeal of infidelity?


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## Almostrecovered

a few things-

I think if you have a good R that many of BS's go thru a bad hypervigilence stage (or paranoia) anywhere around that 3-10 month stage. I certainly did myself (I checked a hole in the wall for a secret phone every day for a month). Once the initial shock of betrayal starts to wear off and things start going good, the BS now starts to fear losing their rekindled love because, after all, they were cheated on before so it's possible to be cheated on again.


secondly, there is a definite and obvious power shift in the marriage during a good R towards the BS. And, frankly, there needs to be one in order for the BS to heal and feel in control. This power shift does gradually shift back towards the middle over time if the BS is remorseful, transparent, etc. So be patient and continue the course and be understanding that he is one paranoid man right now. Constant reassurance and affection will help.


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## The_Swan

@Working_Together if you're still out there please don't let the trolls ruin your progress.

You know that you have done something terribly wrong and you seem to be trying your damnedest to work it out with your husband. 

I sincerely wish you and your husband the best and I hope you will return to TAM.


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## FourtyPlus

working_together said:


> yeah, I know, unbelievable.
> 
> I'm still in shock, don't even want to post on threads much now. I don't understand why people just don't write a book and get paid for it, why come here?


Did you think you were going to get any constructive advice or help from folks that didn't go through R? Did you think that someone that advocates divorce or someone that turned from cheated on spouse to Dr.Phil in just a few weeks would actually be able to help you? There are only very few people on this forum that can offer solid advice because they have saved their marriage. The rest is nothing but a bunch of bitterness that is not going to get you anywhere. It does not matter what you do or say. The majority of bitterness on this forum is going to beat you up, tell you wrong and belittle every bit of emotion you show. This place is great for WW to get beat up and understand the pain their spouses go through. This place is not suitable for couples looking to R because the main focus for most is to beat up on WWs in any way they can.
Time to move on to a place where there is genuine advice, not a bunch of bitterness and hatred spewed around.


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## oldpainshurt

FourtyPlus said:


> The majority of bitterness on this forum is going to beat you up, tell you wrong and belittle every bit of emotion you show. This place is great for WW to get beat up and understand the pain their spouses go through. This place is not suitable for couples looking to R because the main focus for most is to beat up on WWs in any way they can.
> Time to move on to a place where there is genuine advice, not a bunch of bitterness and hatred spewed around.


I agree and I disagree. It's obviously understandable why the bitterness would rage. However, I came to this forum for a couple of reasons.
1. to validate that I wasn't the only one going crazy with triggers and flashbacks. that it was in fact a symptom of her cheating. It was a huge relief when I concluded I'm not totally nuts.
2. to grab at anything that would help me get over this pain and suffering I'm feeling because I Love my wife with all my heart.
3. So she could see what others feel and think about what she did. She read my entire thread and it affected her deeply. I have pasted and printed the piece posted by Chappell (I think) about what to expect from a BS and what she needed to understand to help me get over her cheating.

Workings story was of particluar interest to me because of one important similarity...she seems to be a very intellegent woman who seems to have been doing more "caring-mothering-nursing" her husband, and not outward "loving" him.
The biggest question that actually helps me get over this is to study why beautiful, incredibly intelligent women make such unbelievably bad choices, As many of you know the OM is often a total POS and you have to ask yourself "what the hell was she thinking? this guy is a total creep." What happens to their brain that allows them to cross such a line for such a cheap thrill.
The last couple of days have been difficult at times and I asked her last night, "Do you have the patience and strength to live through this with me?" She is committed to do what ever it takes...but she slips, I slip,,,it's just freaking hard!!! But you have to deal with it...head on.

So don't come to the forums looking for simple answers...come to the forums looking for the answers that support your feelings, to understand the anger of others and why what you have done is so hurtful....that you're BS is not going nuts and he has every right to be angry, but keep them in focus and context because is all just someones damn opinion and your situation is always not quite the same. This is more like a group therapy session run by the patients. 

DDay for me, having come 25 years after the fact may have actually saved our marriage. The years since the incidents have been wonderful. Had I been in your husbands situation and found out about her cheating when it happen, I would have thrown her out, I'm sure of it. I also would have regreted it to this day, knowing now, what the future held for us. Things happen. I swear there is NOBODY that has had 42 year of PERFECT, Some people could never stay together, because they believe in this myth, that there are actually perfect people in this ****ed up world. We're all flawed and if we truly love our spouse...we can love them inspite of their flaws as long as there is real love can forgive, and commit to never again!


----------



## strugglinghusband

working_together said:


> No, I agree, it's really a place for the BS, I should have realized that myself. I guess I came here to read what the BS's were going through as to give me some insight as to what my husband is going through. In that respect it has been helpful for me.


working you more than likely have helped more folks on here than you know (count me as one of them). you have offered up alot into the mindset of the WW and what they we/are thinking before D-Day and afterwards. 

If everyone can take just one thing from this site that helps them thru thier current situation, what to do to, or what not to do, as it pertains to THIER relantionship whether they be a B/S or W/S.....then it is for both. MHO


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## working_together

I think the main problem is that I have been very open with everything, my feelings, his feelings, and shared a lot of my life. I have always been an open person, and always will answer questions truthfully, but people don't ask me questions, they assume what they feel must be true because guess what? I cheated, lied, etc. It really never leaves a person's mind when reading my posts.


----------



## working_together

Almostrecovered said:


> a few things-
> 
> I think if you have a good R that many of BS's go thru a bad hypervigilence stage (or paranoia) anywhere around that 3-10 month stage. I certainly did myself (I checked a hole in the wall for a secret phone every day for a month). Once the initial shock of betrayal starts to wear off and things start going good, the BS now starts to fear losing their rekindled love because, after all, they were cheated on before so it's possible to be cheated on again.
> 
> 
> secondly, there is a definite and obvious power shift in the marriage during a good R towards the BS. And, frankly, there needs to be one in order for the BS to heal and feel in control. This power shift does gradually shift back towards the middle over time if the BS is remorseful, transparent, etc. So be patient and continue the course and be understanding that he is one paranoid man right now. Constant reassurance and affection will help.


I know you're right about the "power shift", we have always had areas in which each of us was in charge of, me with the kids schooling, him the bills, a bit traditional in some ways. But, I am a very independent person, and have always done my own thing outside of our marriage, and we've done things together. We have a few couple friends, and I have several girlfriends, either married or not. He never questioned any of this, and yeah that part is difficult, but I have changed to what he wants from me now. Sometimes I just feel like I'm losing myself in the process. not sure it it makes sense....damn that Champix, I need a cigarette.


----------



## Cheezits be tasty

Long time lurker, first time poster. This thread is getting a little heated. Can't we all play nice? A few things stand out to me. Working together is on this forum looking for help and advice, that speaks volumes to me about what she wants. Which is to help her husband. I appreciate your point of view and understand your struggles working tog, as I am the ws in my situation. I appreciate your posts and will hopefully be ready to post my story and ask for advice soon. I think because a lot of people in here are the bs we can expect a lot of misdirected anger and hostility. Like I said though, we are here looking for help, so we are trying. I guess work on thickening our skin! Judgements tend to be harsh and no one knows the whole story or situation. From my perspective anything this crowd says against me, is nowhere near how I have beaten myself up, so its all good. Keep up the good work, and for sure keep posting, you have been a great help to me.


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## warlock07

and the fact that you affaired down(no offense), had the big O's. It totally ruined his self esteem


----------



## oldpainshurt

working_together said:


> Now, it's the hurt of how I could have thought I loved another man, how I could have made my husband second best. It's not really always my behavior (occasionally pulling back), it's the recurring thoughts as to the feeling that is he really my first choice right now.


You need to make him feel that desire, not just sexual, that desire that you DO really put him first, that he is your number one choice and you need to do it often. He needs that reenforcement and he needs to believe it...he needs to feel it. You need to continue to give him your love in no uncertain terms...especially when he is triggering. Show him you feel it deeply every minute of the day.


----------



## spudster

I know I said I wasn't going to post again, but....



> You need to make him feel that desire, not just sexual, that desire that you DO really put him first, that he is your number one choice and you need to do it often. He needs that reenforcement and he needs to believe it...he needs to feel it. You need to continue to give him your love in no uncertain terms...especially when he is triggering. Show him you feel it deeply every minute of the day.


oldpainshurt may be on to something. 

WT, have you and your husband ever had the "hysterical bonding" that I've seen posters referring to? Maybe this is a key to bringing hubby out of the funk. Have you tried being his sex slave, available at any moment he desires for a romp?


----------



## working_together

What happened to my thread???


----------



## working_together

spudster said:


> I know I said I wasn't going to post again, but....
> 
> 
> 
> oldpainshurt may be on to something.
> 
> WT, have you and your husband ever had the "hysterical bonding" that I've seen posters referring to? Maybe this is a key to bringing hubby out of the funk. Have you tried being his sex slave, available at any moment he desires for a romp?


I wish you would read my other threads, it would give you some valuable information. Not being mean, but it's just people read one post and jump to all kinds of conclusions

The hysterical bonding as I have always said was pretty extreme for my husband. We started having sex on day 1 of our recovery, and have had regular sex ever since. It has been much more satisfying than it ever was before, partly because I have seemed to through my peak, a little later than usual, probably because I had two kids later in life. Sex was never an issue before, nor is it now, everything else is. When we have sex, it's the only time he calms down, after he's calm for a short while, then the anger resumes. Why would I say no to sex, if I know he really needs to feel good, even for a short time.


----------



## working_together

Cheezits be tasty said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster. This thread is getting a little heated. Can't we all play nice? A few things stand out to me. Working together is on this forum looking for help and advice, that speaks volumes to me about what she wants. Which is to help her husband. I appreciate your point of view and understand your struggles working tog, as I am the ws in my situation. I appreciate your posts and will hopefully be ready to post my story and ask for advice soon. I think because a lot of people in here are the bs we can expect a lot of misdirected anger and hostility. Like I said though, we are here looking for help, so we are trying. I guess work on thickening our skin! Judgements tend to be harsh and no one knows the whole story or situation. From my perspective anything this crowd says against me, is nowhere near how I have beaten myself up, so its all good. Keep up the good work, and for sure keep posting, you have been a great help to me.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> and the fact that you affaired down(no offense), had the big O's. It totally ruined his self esteem


I know I totally affaired down, as for the "big O's", I told him the truth about that, I wish I never did, some things are better left unsaid, but I wanted everything out in the open. I have told him that the reason it probably happened was because of the psychological state I was in, it was a form of a high in a sense. Did I feel guilty about it, yeah, I had no control over it, it's not something you can just make happen.


----------



## working_together

skip76 said:


> I have pretty much read everything you have written here. These last posts seem very selfish and unloving. Sure you mask it with some throw in comments about being sorry but I think you really need to look deep inside and see what feelings you have for this man. You might have to end this so he can feel what it is liked to be desired. I myself could not go forward with you if I read these last posts by you. And you said he reads this. I hate pity sex as I am sure he does. He just wants to be wanted. I would want to be lusted after like the om was. You make him sound like a burden. What has it been only a few months now. Geez
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

skip76 said:


> I have pretty much read everything you have written here. These last posts seem very selfish and unloving. Sure you mask it with some throw in comments about being sorry but I think you really need to look deep inside and see what feelings you have for this man. You might have to end this so he can feel what it is liked to be desired. I myself could not go forward with you if I read these last posts by you. And you said he reads this. I hate pity sex as I am sure he does. He just wants to be wanted. I would want to be lusted after like the om was. You make him sound like a burden. What has it been only a few months now. Geez
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not giving him "pitty sex", common, why would a person even do that? That's just so mean, and believe me the other person can feel that. I enjoy it as much as he does, it' our time to bond and re-connect on that level. Do I walk around grabbing his ass, no, but I never did, and I'm not like that. I'll send him sexy text messages, sometimes graphic, that's where I show some of my desire. I never lusted after OM the way hubby thinks, or other people think here. Yes, I was attracted to him, but never mauled him, or jumped his bones. Our relationship was not based on sex, although of course it happened.


----------



## spudster

> Sex was never an issue before, nor is it now, everything else is. When we have sex, it's the only time he calms down, after he's calm for a short while, then the anger resumes. Why would I say no to sex, if I know he really needs to feel good, even for a short time.


Got it. Say no more. X-cuse my thick-headedness.


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> Get him to go to counseling and preferably a counselor who specializes in helping betrayed spouses. I went to one for many months after discovering my ex-wife's affair and it helped me tremendously with helping me deal with the triggers. My counselor specialized in PTSD which helps considering that the trauma is shares many characteristics to the one soldiers experience out in the battlefield.


He's doing just that. She is very experienced, and has given him a lot information and tips. He's had PTSD before through his injury when he thought he might be crippled after his operations. He never sought help for that though.


----------



## working_together

InRecoveryInNC said:


> Here’s the way I see it and I don’t want to sound too harsh…. But first your H will never be able to fully get through this until he is ready. He can talk to his counselor everyday about everything that triggers his emotions but until he is able to forgive (never forget, because what ever the cause of the infidelity needs to always be remember so as not to go back to the place that lead to the event) and he is willing to let things go and move on, it will never work out with the two of you still being together. I don’t say this as an excuse but I have been there and I am still trying to recover. We are 16 months out from D-day and there are days that my H (who had the PA) can do everything I ask, and everything he should be doing but I still get ‘crazy’ and start to have all of these random thoughts and feelings and sometimes it even takes a few days for me to get through it. However, here’s where I think some things need to be taken into consideration. Just because you have dealt with your issues and seem to be ok with what you done doesn’t mean he is. Remember you have had more time to deal with your choices (from the day you decided to go outside of the marriage, you started dealing with what you were doing.) Your H on the other hand has only had from the time that d-day happened. You have worked through many emotions already and he still has many to go through. Things will either get better and you two will end up in a happy marriage or, and this might be hard to deal with, he may not be able to actually forgive you for what happened and you two might go your separate ways. I don’t know your story and as in most cases the LS has something to do with the DS choosing to go outside of the marriage so by no means am I saying this all lies on your shoulders but the one choice he didn’t make and he had no control of was to have his wife step outside of the marriage. Sometimes, very drastic measures must be taken and if your affair actually happened in the home you share, it might make sense to leave the home. It won’t be a quick decision, but taking the steps to get this going may be something that is necessary. And just know you may be doing everything he needs and asks you to do but there are going to be days (sometimes several at a time) that his emotions are out of control and you just need to love him through them.


I know what you are saying. He sees a very qualified therapist who has experience in PSTD and infidelity. The problem is that at this point he does not want to even let go of anything because then it will mean that I will forget too, and will not work on the marriage. It also means that if he starts the process of moving on, it allows his heart to open up, and be free to be hurt all over again.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> You mentioned that OM broke off with his wife. Is this the reason why your husband has become much more paranoid? Is there anything in particular that is triggering him(other than you obviously). He seems to be losing it. Maybe a week long vacation or a couples retreat?


It's a great idea you have, but we're living on one salary, he doesn't want me to work since I had the affair, he feels my boundaries are still too weak.


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## working_together

spudster said:


> Got it. Say no more. X-cuse my thick-headedness.


----------



## TBT

Maybe,if it's not to hard for your husband he could put down on paper the things that trigger him when they do,aside from the obvious ones.So much time away from the end of my marriage and the name Steve still brings on a tinge of negativity.The minds a strange animal.


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## [email protected]

My two cents cause i got shot down the last time i mentioned it, when my sig other cheated on me, i ended up seeing two other women. To test if i was worth it and she truly wanted to reconcile , i payed attention to her, if she fought tooth and nail and dealt with the blow back, and i also lost the bitterness and resentment cause we now balanced things out and i was able to experience things and regain my self esteem by seieng the other women. If i didnt do thant( i did it 3 years later) i wouldn have suffereed mentally bigtime and break down with the triggers, mind movies, lack of self worth and depression, and keep reliving things and i questioned my self and her and kept self doubting. There is a thread on here where one guy talks about when his wife cheated, he ended up doing the same and he regained all that which encumbered him . If i didnt , things would have festered, imagine if i was 60 and still struggling with these thoughts?


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## working_together

Just wanted to thank people who have supported me (you know who you are).

My marriage is over, apparently infidelity is a deal breaker for my husband.

I may eventually post over at the separation side, but not sure they would be so accepting of me.

L.


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## morituri

Whoa there missy! Unless your husband has packed his stuffed, moved out and filed for divorce, it ain't over. And even then, the fat lady has to sing at the time the divorce it's being finalized.


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## spudster

> Just wanted to thank people who have supported me (you know who you are).
> 
> My marriage is over, apparently infidelity is a deal breaker for my husband.
> 
> I may eventually post over at the separation side, but not sure they would be so accepting of me.


I know I'm truly sorry to hear this. He must have just hit you with it. 

No one on this thread ever wished you ill-will. I know I don't. I hate to see any marriage end. 

I think in the end you can walk away knowing you fought for your marriage, for whatever cold comfort that brings. And I believe you will keep on fighting. Just because your husband files does not mean D is inevitable. He could take it right to the brink and then decide not to go through with it. 

Either way it goes, you have my sympathy and my respect. Good luck.


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## warlock07

I will make an observation. The affair ended in Feb right? You were in the affair fog for sometime. Only in the last 2-3 months were you truly repentant and see the damage you did. Until then, your husband was the one struggling to repair and preserve the marriage. Only after the remorse that you showed him, confronting the OM's wife, apologizing him repeatedly did he process the entire scenario and realize the amount of pain you put him under. Until then he was in survival mode. Maybe the shift in the power in the relation and him anger to punish his wife for the pain she is causing him(hate to bring these terms) is what ultimately caused him to separate/divorce. I hope I am not making any scandalous statements here. I am just trying to understand


----------



## Complexity

Sorry working. I guess the triggers and PTSD are just too much to handle.


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## morituri

spudster said:


> Just because your husband files does not mean D is inevitable. He could take it right to the brink and then decide not to go through with it.


:iagree:

Some advice for you to consider. Don't beg, don't cry, don't promise you'll make it up to him. Convey to him that you respect, understand and will abide by his decision, as much as it breaks your heart. Then leave him alone to ponder your words.

He has been fighting an inner conflict since D-day between two forces, fight and flight. Fight represents the love he has for you and pulls him to stay with you. Flight represents the anger he has for you and pulls him to leave you. Anger seems to have the upper hand, for the moment any way. This tug of war has left him emotionally spent.

Pursuing him will only make him want to leave you more. He does not need any pressure from you, the kids, not even from himself. Perhaps a separation may help him bring an end to his inner conflict and finally make a choice that he can live with and give him peace of mind.

And while I'm not trying to give you false hope, remember that between now and then (divorce finalized), *ANYTHING can happen*.


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## Badblood

morituri said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Some advice for you to consider. Don't beg, don't cry, don't promise you'll make it up to him. Convey to him that you respect, understand and will abide by his decision, as much as it breaks your heart. Then leave him alone to ponder your words.
> 
> He has been fighting an inner conflict since D-day between two forces, fight and flight. Fight represents the love he has for you and pulls him to stay with you. Flight represents the anger he has for you and pulls him to leave you. Anger seems to have the upper hand, for the moment any way. This tug of war has left him emotionally spent.
> 
> Pursuing him will only make him want to leave you more. He does not need any pressure from you, the kids, not even from himself. Perhaps a separation may help him bring an end to his inner conflict and finally make a choice that he can live with and give him peace of mind.
> 
> And while I'm not trying to give you false hope, remember that between now and then (divorce finalized), *ANYTHING can happen*.


This is good advice, Working. The marriage isn't over until it is notarized, stamped and sealed. You have the time, and so does he, to find a new marriage and a new outlook. Let him be for a while and see what happens. Always making sure that he knows that you will wait until HE decides.


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## working_together

grrrr, I seem to have a love/hate relationship with this forum, but I can't stay away too long...

A bit of an update....a bit of a break through....

My husband went to his sister's house yesterday, and came home around 4 in the morning. This is the first time he has ever left so willingly, so ready to move on if he needed to. I didn't beg or plead with him to stay, I was numb to it really. After the kids went to bed, that's when I felt it, "is this really the end to 25 years". I tried to sleep in the bed, but couldn't, so I just lay on the couch in the dark, just thinking about what I have done to him in the last year. I kept looking at the time wondering when he was going to come home. I really missed him, just his presence in the house is a comfort for me. It's like when he took me to my first concert (Billy Idol), we had crappy seats, and he said to me "grab my hand, we're going to the front row so you can see him up close". I was scared sh*tless, but when he grabbed my hand, I felt safe, I trusted his word. I was so in love with him. I remember working at a summer camp and we had to be apart for 2 months. I remember finding the biggest art paper I could find, and filled it up with "I miss you's" and just sharing every detail of my days away from him. I think I sent him letters almost every day, and then he drove 9 hours to spend 1 day with me, he missed me as well. I snuck him into my cabin, I didn't care if I got caught. We smoked cigarettes all night, and just talked, we had not even been completely intimate at that point.

When we had our fights, it was just as intense. We'd scream, and say awful things to each other. We broke up for a few days when we were dating. He was devistated, I wouldn't take his calls, refused to talk to him, I sat at home depressed, but stubborn as hell (I even forget what the fight was about). His mother finally called me and begged me to come see him, she was almost in tears. She told me she was worried about her son, and that she had never seen him like this, he was drinking heavily, and isolating in his bedroom. My heart sank, I thought he was going to kill himself, I begged my mom for the car (I didn't have a license), and drove over to his house. What I saw I still see even today, and how I ever forgot about that during my affair I'll never know. The way he was curled up in a ball on the sofa in his room, just sobbing. I held him for what seemed forever, I didn't want to loose him either.

I guess you really don't know how much you really love someone, and actually want and need them until they are willing to walk away from it all, even his kids. I realized at that point that because of my actions, and the level of cruelty I subjected him to, he was willing to say good bye. It had to be just as painful for him to leave, but it was too painful to continue the way we were.

When we finally talked today, I was discouraged, lost, I wanted to tell him that I love him, that I missed him last night. But again my pride got in the way, I wouldn't beg, I wouldn't plead with him to never leave my side again. We talked for hours, and without him yelling. We hadn't slept much in days, he was drained, fed up from the suffering of the last 9 or so months. I really didn't know what to say to make him see that I love him more than anything. 

So I brought up a trip we took to Memphis 6 years ago. He was just starting a new career as a social worker, and just landed his first job. He was so proud to have a job after studying for 3 years, and being home on disability for so long. Unfortunately, it was a horrible job for him. A woman had it out for him the entire few months he was there. She was angry at a comment he made as a joke, she was an extreme feminist (he had no idea), and when he called her "princess" when she snubbed her nose at his coffee, she almost ruined his new career. He'd call me every day almost in tears, pacing the parking lot. Finally I said, quit that job, you need to get out of there. Years later he crossed paths with her, and she tried it again, this time feeling more secure in another job, he went after her and people finally saw who she really was. She lost all respect from her collegues, and almost lost her job.

My husband always loved Elvis since he was a kid, and his dream was to visit Graceland, I had just inherited money, I told him that day we were leaving in two days for the road trip. The radio barely worked, but it didn't bother us, we would cheer when we would get reception. I was so happy to see him smile again. It was all worth it.

So, as I lay on the sofa, I thought of these memories that I haven't thought of in a very long time. Did I just forget them when I had my affair? Where was my mind when making the decision to cheat on my husband? I know at the time I wanted to be selfish, I wanted something for me, where it came from I'm still working on. This is what I need to realize, that as intense as his anger is towards me, is as intense as his love his for me (as Badblood pointed out) I didn't feel that before my affair, I didn't feel he needed me, he was doing fine, he was happy in his job. I needed to feel and see for whatever the reason that he was devoted to us. But in reality he was, and this is where my own issues with myself won over, and therefore led to my decision to abandon my marriage.

So tonight he was sitting at the kitchen table on his laptop, and all of a sudden I hear my favorite Elvis song "suspicious minds". He had our daughter on his lap, and she was moving and grooving to Elvis, I laughed and grabbed my 4 year old son and made him dance with me in the kitchen. The kids loved it, and for the first time in a long time everyone seemed happy. 

So I finally told him I wanted him to stay, we agreed it's going to be a very long road a head of us, we talked about patience. I don't always have it, but I also have a need to fix things immediately. I have to learn how to feel my own pain over what I did, and learn to live with it. Not just expect it to go away.

That's where we're at today.....sorry if it's sooo long, I used to journal as a teen and have a whole suitcase full of loose papers and doodles. I remembered it helped me get through some of the craziness of adolescence. Maybe this can help me again.


----------



## morituri

What was that about *anything can happen*?


----------



## miscommunication

Working- I have been following your posts for a few days now and see a lot of my own struggles in both you and your husband. I am happy for you that things seem to be back on track. I want to share that things will be hard even though they seem better right now. I speak as both someone who cheated and has been cheated on (I had a sexual affair that lasted about 3-4 weeks, my wife had an emotional/sexual affair that started around same time as mine and lasted about a year). I have come to believe that although I was not emotionally involved the affair fulfilled an emotional need to be sexually desired and pursued so in that regard I would say mine was also emotional. You already know the guilt of having caused extreme pain so I won't add to that burden. What you ask about is triggers and I will tell you just how bad your husband has it based on my experience. Right now he has no control over the triggers. He can go from being happy and in love to being a broken spirit. Things that you see as totally innocent are like a slap in the face. Even a change in something that you do is going to be a trigger. If you decide to buy new underwear of a different color, cut, style or even material than your norm he will wonder if it's something the other man brought into your life. He is likely to question if you are thinking of the other man when having sex with him. The triggers are so extreme that he may go from being a raging bull ready to mate to not being able to get or maintain an erection. Or the physical may work but he has mental movies of the other guy making you orgasm and that will kill his ability or desire to enjoy sex. I think several others have mentioned it but the triggers don't just go away. And he may be similar to me and believe that we all make choices and that past experiences shouldn't be used as an excuse. So for him you choosing another man had nothing to do with your own internal struggles but was actually a rejection of him, his love and his manhood. I don't condone the behavior on either side (I'm guilty of it myself) but I tell you I can relate. You need to do a lot of mending and that means you have to help rebuild his confidence in himself and trust. I know you mention your kids in your posts and they are very important but you have to understand one very important thing. He needs to know and you need to prove to him that you are fighting for him. You want the marriage because you want him. Not because of the kids or because it's against your religious believes or anything else. When you cheated you didn't do it for the kids or anything else like that. You did it for your own selfish desire. Make him important enough to where you want him for just the man that he is and then show him and do it consistently. 

I do hope this helps you. And I hope he gives you the same gift that my wife gave me, forgiveness and a second chance. I hope you can then give him the gift of patience, understanding, acceptance and love. Know that just like you are having your struggles with guilt he too is having his struggles. He has anger, despair, hope, love, emptiness, happiness, loneliness and many other conflicting emotions when it comes to you. I hope your future updates will carry good news. Keep working at the counseling, both of you need it, I know for my wife and I it has helped. Oh and please listen with an open mind and don't make my mistake......don't try to defend your actions/affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FourtyPlus

Like you, I'm not the most patient person in the world, I want everything done yesterday if possible. I don't even know how many times I literally demanded my husband move on because obviously, I had moved on. My thinking was, since I stopped cheating, he needs to stop hurting but it didn't work that way, not at all. Being patient was very hard for me but I finally got to a point where I knew the next trigger would come AND GO and that it wasn't going to be the end of my marriage if I could only shut up and stop demanding he get over it. He says today that he still has some issues to deal with and I know he will do it "his way", not mine.


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## Badblood

Working, I'm more worried about you now than when you first came to TAM. It's not that your husband left for a while , I'm more worried about your pride. While I agree that begging him to stay wouldn't have been productive, YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN WILLING TO!!!! The REASON why you wouldn't beg is far more important to your reconciliation THAN THE ACTUAL ACT. Don't you see this , even now? You need to leave your f**king pride at the door, or you will fail.


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## Haz

Working:

I don't think anyone was as harsh in their response to your initial posts as I was. You have come a very long way since then. In reading your latest, I am struck by your description of seeing him broken, early in your relationship. And I am struck by your saying that even in the face of losing him tonight, you could not lay aside your strength and your pride.

I think maybe he needs to see you break. He needs to see you lay aside that strength and pride, to cast them off and abandon them even in the face of how central they have been to your identity.

I think part of you at least wants to break too. And I think you don't know how.

I wish I had advice on how to go about it, but I don't, except to say that to keep your husband you may have to part with a part of yourself that you have until now thought you could not live without.

I wish you the best.

Haz


----------



## Badblood

Haz said:


> Working:
> 
> I don't think anyone was as harsh in their response to your initial posts as I was. You have come a very long way since then. In reading your latest, I am struck by your description of seeing him broken, early in your relationship. And I am struck by your saying that even in the face of losing him tonight, you could not lay aside your strength and your pride.
> 
> I think maybe he needs to see you break. He needs to see you lay aside that strength and pride, to cast them off and abandon them even in the face of how central they have been to your identity.
> 
> I think part of you at least wants to break too. And I think you don't know how.
> 
> I wish I had advice on how to go about it, but I don't, except to say that to keep your husband you may have to part with a part of yourself that you have until now thought you could not live without.
> 
> I wish you the best.
> 
> Haz


Well put, Haz. Working, you chose to cheat, then chose the OM over your husband, and now you are choosing your pride over him again. How can you possibly begin again, if he does all the work and you get to keep making selfish choices? Until you can approach him begging, metaphorically, as a suplicant, how can trust be re-established? The act of submission and the willingness to make whatever restitution it takes is fundamental to recovery/ If you cannot or will not do this, you need to divorce.


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## morituri

Maybe it wasn't pride that kept her from showing him that she didn't want him to go. Maybe she felt that she wasn't worthy of begging him to stay. Just saying.


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## Badblood

Mori, she said "pride", if she meant something else, she should have said so.


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## Badblood

Working, there is a HUGE difference between self-worth and self-esteem. Self-worth is based upon the content of your character, your accomplishments, and the regard of others. Self-esteem is your own selfish opinion. Self-worth fosters a sense of satisfaction and humility. Self-esteem fosters pride and arrogance. Which would you prefer?


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## warlock07

@Badblood, I think this is a bit more complicated.

When a BS threatens to leave the marriage there are 2 things a WS can do

Beg him to stay but she can beg him for her own selfish reasons to stay in the marriage even if the BS is miserable.

Let him leave because she knows that the BS will not get over it and that the only way the BS can find his own happiness is by leaving her.


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## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> @Badblood, I think this is a bit more complicated.
> 
> When a BS threatens to leave the marriage there are 2 things a WS can do
> 
> Beg him to stay but she can beg him for her own selfish reasons to stay in the marriage even if the BS is miserable.
> 
> Let him leave because she knows that the BS will not get over it and that the only way the BS can find his own happiness is by leaving her.


Warlock, I understand all of this, but I'm going by her own words. She said that her pride is what kept her from begging him to stay. Does this sound like a remorseful woman who would do ANYTHING to repair the damage she has done? It doesn't to me. It sounds more like a woman whose sense of entitlement is more important to her than her marriage. I admit that Working had me fooled. I truly believed that she was completely committed to Reconciliation, and had put her husband's needs above her own. Clearly I was mistaken. I feel very sorry for her husband, and for her too. For her husband , because he will always be second-best in her heart. For her, because she will never experience true love , because she is incapable of giving it. It's embarassing to admit I was wrong.


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## Tall Average Guy

Badblood said:


> Warlock, I understand all of this, but I'm going by her own words. She said that her pride is what kept her from begging him to stay. Does this sound like a remorseful woman who would do ANYTHING to repair the damage she has done? It doesn't to me. It sounds more like a woman whose sense of entitlement is more important to her than her marriage. I admit that Working had me fooled. I truly believed that she was completely committed to Reconciliation, and had put her husband's needs above her own. Clearly I was mistaken. I feel very sorry for her husband, and for her too. For her husband , because he will always be second-best in her heart. For her, because she will never experience true love , because she is incapable of giving it. It's embarassing to admit I was wrong.


Three thoughts:

1. While words are important, I think focusing on specific words in a thread can be dangerous. All of us, at one time or another, have used one word to convey an idea when another word would have been better. For example, while most lay people would use the temrs "self esteem" and "self worth" interchangably, there are in fact different ideas being conveyed. Getting bogged down on specific words can cause discussions to move away from the larger point or get caught up in semantics. I think this is particularly the case with emotions, where it can be difficult to accurately describe what a person is feeling.

2. Personal growth and learning about ones self are on-going processes. It is completely possible for a person, such as Working, to be sincerely attempting to reconcile and not realize how she is impeding that processes. While it is important to point that out to help the poster, I am not sure that assigning intent or malice to the poster, particularly where they are coming back time and time again in what appears to be an honest attempt to work on the issue, is productive.

3. I think that Working is honestly attempting to do the right thing. That she is missing the mark, either becuase she does not know how to do it or does not realize she is doing it wrong, does not mean she does not want to help.

YMMV.


----------



## morituri

Tall Average Guy said:


> Three thoughts:
> 
> 1. While words are important, I think focusing on specific words in a thread can be dangerous. All of us, at one time or another, have used one word to convey an idea when another word would have been better. For example, while most lay people would use the temrs "self esteem" and "self worth" interchangably, there are in fact different ideas being conveyed. Getting bogged down on specific words can cause discussions to move away from the larger point or get caught up in semantics. I think this is particularly the case with emotions, where it can be difficult to accurately describe what a person is feeling.
> 
> 2. Personal growth and learning about ones self are on-going processes. It is completely possible for a person, such as Working, to be sincerely attempting to reconcile and not realize how she is impeding that processes. While it is important to point that out to help the poster, I am not sure that assigning intent or malice to the poster, particularly where they are coming back time and time again in what appears to be an honest attempt to work on the issue, is productive.
> 
> 3. I think that Working is honestly attempting to do the right thing. That she is missing the mark, either becuase she does not know how to do it or does not realize she is doing it wrong, does not mean she does not want to help.
> 
> YMMV.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:




Badblood said:


> Mori, she said "pride", if she meant something else, she should have said so.


True but it may have been a poor choice of words on her part.

I think she that she might be trying to repress feelings for fear of doing more damage and she may be afraid of losing control.

In any case, I wonder if working is still going to counseling to address and resolve her personal issues.


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Working, I'm more worried about you now than when you first came to TAM. It's not that your husband left for a while , I'm more worried about your pride. While I agree that begging him to stay wouldn't have been productive, YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN WILLING TO!!!! The REASON why you wouldn't beg is far more important to your reconciliation THAN THE ACTUAL ACT. Don't you see this , even now? You need to leave your f**king pride at the door, or you will fail.


I know what your saying, I almost get there, I feel I want to do that to really show him I need and want him. I reach out and cry and tell him that, maybe I'm focused on the word "begging", and I need to look at it another way, it's what I have to do for the real healing to begin. I know he's feeling it, and it triggers him. I need help with this I guess, I have to admit that there is something very wrong with me, I have this fear that if I completely submit what will happen to me, It has nothing to do with not wanting him, or not loving him, I know that, and I am clear about that. It is within myself, hence the need for help through therapy again. 

Then I read on the forum that the wives really don't want their husbands, and I think that must be me too. i guess I don't really want him, why would I have done that to him otherwise. But it's just not true, I do love him, and want him here with me. When we're happy, it's really good, but when it's bad, it's horrible.


----------



## working_together

Haz said:


> Working:
> 
> I don't think anyone was as harsh in their response to your initial posts as I was. You have come a very long way since then. In reading your latest, I am struck by your description of seeing him broken, early in your relationship. And I am struck by your saying that even in the face of losing him tonight, you could not lay aside your strength and your pride.
> 
> I think maybe he needs to see you break. He needs to see you lay aside that strength and pride, to cast them off and abandon them even in the face of how central they have been to your identity.
> 
> I think part of you at least wants to break too. And I think you don't know how.
> 
> I wish I had advice on how to go about it, but I don't, except to say that to keep your husband you may have to part with a part of yourself that you have until now thought you could not live without.
> 
> I wish you the best.
> 
> Haz


exactly, I don't know how, and my biggest fear is what happens when I do?


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## working_together

morituri said:


> Maybe it wasn't pride that kept her from showing him that she didn't want him to go. Maybe she felt that she wasn't worthy of begging him to stay. Just saying.


I don't know really, I thought on some level he would lose respect for me and see me as pathetic, but in reality I think he needs to see this part of me.


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Mori, she said "pride", if she meant something else, she should have said so.


It is pride, I know it is, but it's even more complicate than that, and it's great people here are trying to figure it out with me.


but don't argue please please please.


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## working_together

Badblood said:


> Warlock, I understand all of this, but I'm going by her own words. She said that her pride is what kept her from begging him to stay. Does this sound like a remorseful woman who would do ANYTHING to repair the damage she has done? It doesn't to me. It sounds more like a woman whose sense of entitlement is more important to her than her marriage. I admit that Working had me fooled. I truly believed that she was completely committed to Reconciliation, and had put her husband's needs above her own. Clearly I was mistaken. I feel very sorry for her husband, and for her too. For her husband , because he will always be second-best in her heart. For her, because she will never experience true love , because she is incapable of giving it. It's embarassing to admit I was wrong.


Bad, you're jumping the gun, and loosing faith in me.

I am giving everything I can in this relationship, I'm really trying, and I'm not fooling others or myself, believe me.

Pride has me confused, the word "begging" drives me nuts. I used to beg my mother for the things I wanted when I was younger, and she always said "NO", I felt like I didn't deserve them. Everyone around me had things I wanted, but she chose to buy me second hand clothes. She was handicapped so I helped her as much as I could, and I just felt like no matter what I did for her I was not appreciated. She had the money to do it, but she chose not to. She wanted me to learn the value of money, and be a hard worker, and which I became, but it was extreme, and it f*cked me up a bit. I became bitter about it, and thought I got over it, but it seems I'm having some horrible memories come up again with this affair.

And my mom has more than made up for what happened. She's now a very generous and loving woman with me and my kids, and adores my husband to the point that she refers to him as the son she never had. I know she was very hurt by her divorce, and what my dad did to me, and she became depressed many times. But I never thought about it much anymore...until the last year.


----------



## morituri

working_together said:


> I have to admit that there is something very wrong with me, *I have this fear that if I completely submit what will happen to me, It has nothing to do with not wanting him, or not loving him, I know that, and I am clear about that. It is within myself, hence the need for help through therapy again. *
> 
> exactly, I don't know how, and *my biggest fear* is what happens when I do?


There is that word again that pops out from two of your posts. I don't know if it has something to do with whether or not, you view yourself as being the emotionally stronger of the two and that you must maintain the facade in order not to lose control of the situation. But whatever it is, *nobody* including your husband, wants to be in a relationship that is held together mostly by fear of the unknown and not out of love and desire for one another.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Working, you are comparing having to beg your mother for material things with having to beg your husband to stay with you. I understand, both involve begging but for completely different things.
We just had this talk with our daugther yesterday, dealing with pride and how to recognize false pride. There are times where you have to swallow your pride no matter how hard it is for you. You can chose not to and that's fine, that's your choice. It's just that pride is a very cold companion, it will not comfort you, it will not love you or give you affection. Begging your husband is not going to make you a lesser person. We grow from pain, never from happiness. I know you are going through a very hard time and I know you are in pain - swallow your pride, take your agony and grow from it. It's hard and it hurts but it's always worth it.


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> There is that word again that pops out from two of your posts. I don't know if it has something to do with whether or not, you view yourself as being the emotionally stronger of the two and that you must maintain the facade in order not to lose control of the situation. But whatever it is, *nobody* including your husband, wants to be in a relationship that is held together mostly by fear of the unknown and not out of love and desire for one another.


I think I know what everyone is telling me, my husband and I just talked on the phone about it, and he said the same thing. He told me to stop being so tough or trying to be in control. He told me that he would not think lesser of me, that I wasn't like that before. He wants me to really show him I want him, and that by putting up this wall, he's not feeling it, and that's why he got to the point of walking. He said he doesn't want me to beg, but as someone else said "be willing to do it" that he deserves it, he has to feel that I will do no matter what it takes to save this marriage. 

He keeps asking me what I'm afraid of, I told him I want him to think I'm so strong I can deal with anything that comes my way, but I can't can I? I need his help. I told him I'm afraid of him dying, and that I have protected myself from it. He reassured me that he's not going anywhere. In the back of my mind I always thought he might leave me, and acted on it, that I would be ok without him, and he knows I won't be happy without him, he just wants me to admit it, he needs to hear it from me.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> Working, you are comparing having to beg your mother for material things with having to beg your husband to stay with you. I understand, both involve begging but for completely different things.
> We just had this talk with our daugther yesterday, dealing with pride and how to recognize false pride. There are times where you have to swallow your pride no matter how hard it is for you. You can chose not to and that's fine, that's your choice. It's just that pride is a very cold companion, it will not comfort you, it will not love you or give you affection. Begging your husband is not going to make you a lesser person. We grow from pain, never from happiness. I know you are going through a very hard time and I know you are in pain - swallow your pride, take your agony and grow from it. It's hard and it hurts but it's always worth it.


You're right, "it's worth it".


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## working_together

thanks everyone for really trying to get me to see what I need to do. I guess I'm just so f*cking dumb, I need to have it pounded into my head for me to get it. 

It's to the point where I know I have to do it, and not worry about what it means to me, *it's about HIM not me.* 

And Badblood, please don't hate me, you know I've been trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I knew what I was doing wasn't working for my husband and I, that I was blocking us from moving even a bit forward.


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## warlock07

I was a making a long post but lost it 

The point I was making was that Working is scared that if she begs and pleads him, and he still leaves her, it will leave her in a very vulnerable state emotionally. She will be humiliated and the self esteem will be shot. SShe is scared to some let her scar so much emotionally. But I agree with Forty here



> There are times where you have to swallow your pride no matter how hard it is for you. You can chose not to and that's fine, that's your choice. Begging your husband is not going to make you a lesser person. We grow from pain, never from happiness. I know you are going through a very hard time and I know you are in pain - swallow your pride, take your agony and grow from it. It's hard and it hurts but it's always worth it.


Some wise words there


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## working_together

warlock07 said:


> I was a making a long post but lost it
> 
> The point I was making was that Working is scared that if she begs and pleads him, and he still leaves her, it will leave her in a very vulnerable state emotionally. She will be humiliated and the self esteem will be shot. SShe is scared to some let her scar so much emotionally. But I agree with Forty here
> 
> 
> 
> Some wise words there


True, but I have to take that chance, not for me anymore, but for my husband. he needs to see me in that vulnerable position in order to feel that I'm truly remorseful, and really willing to help him heal. I have a lot of trust in him and I know he has always been there to "catch me", this time is no different, but he needs to know that I will be there for him as well.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> thanks everyone for really trying to get me to see what I need to do. I guess I'm just so f*cking dumb, I need to have it pounded into my head for me to get it.
> 
> It's to the point where I know I have to do it, and not worry about what it means to me, *it's about HIM not me.*
> 
> And Badblood, please don't hate me, you know I've been trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I knew what I was doing wasn't working for my husband and I, that I was blocking us from moving even a bit forward.


Hate you? Don't be silly. I really don't hate anybody, but you must understand that since my wife's affair, I am very bull**** intolerant. I would like to believe that you are a sincere, and remorseful person, but therein lies the problem. If you are having trouble convincing me (who has nothing invested) can you see how hard it is to convince your husband, who has invested his life? He has to believe that you are worth another chance, and you have to convince him that this is a one-time abberation, never to be repeated, and that you belong to him , IN ALL REPECTS. If you have to grovel, you grovel. If you have to beg, get down on your knees and get started. WHATEVER he needs, you do. Don't overthink, don't imagine, don't worry about how it will look. Do what you need to do..........or don't. Your call.


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## pidge70

My story is on here but, I am going to give you a brief synopsis. Please excuse me if it appears to be a threadjack as I am wanting to share what I did.

Most people consider me a "strong" woman. When my A came out, I cried, begged on my knees for another chance. While I thought we were in R, he had a revenge A. I still begged and cried. I am most definitely NOT that kind of person. He told me that if I hadn't fought so hard for him, we would not be together. 

When I was 10 to age 19, my mother verbally, physically and emotionally abused me. I was raped at age 14. NOONE would have ever known unless I told them what was going on in my life. I was just so strong. In reality, I was not.

When I knew I could lose everything due to my selfish ignorance, I lost it. I tried to kill myself. That action almost caused me to push him away permanently. I never cried or begged for anything so much in my life. He had to see me truly broken so he knew without a shadow of a doubt that I gave a damn. 

We are 16 months out and we still struggle. I have high hopes we will beat the odds and make it. It takes time, patience, understanding, communication and lots of love. 

I have hope for you and your H. Best of luck to you both.


----------



## aug

It's quite admirable that both working and pidge are helping others as they work on their own issues. I think that goes a long way towards self-growth.


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## pidge70

aug said:


> It's quite admirable that both working and pidge are helping others as they work on their own issues. I think that goes a long way towards self-growth.


Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Pidge, I truly want you and Working to be able to overcome your affairs, and build a better relationship, but what you seem to have accepted, Working does not. She still doesn't get that she has to PROVE everything to her husband's satisfaction, in order for him to be sure of her. Her promises are meaningless, but her actions still say to him that her control of the situation, is more important (to her) than his betrayal issues .


----------



## Haz

Working:

You are getting there, but you are also missing something. Yes, he needs to see you break, to see you lay aside your strength and pride, to be willing to no longer be the strong one. 

But this growth isn't actually about him, it is about you. You cannot truly touch love until you are willing to open yourself to the devastation that it can bring. It is your fear of opening yourself like that that is in the way.

What happens when you truly let go of self preservation? You become someone fundamentally different. Your shell breaks open and you become a new creature. That is what I wish for you, because (even if he leaves) you will no longer be the woman who cheated on him.

One last thought--what would it take for you to allow yourself to be the one curled up on the floor sobbing and being held, to be the child, dependent and reborn.

Keep going!

Haz


----------



## working_together

Haz said:


> Working:
> 
> You are getting there, but you are also missing something. Yes, he needs to see you break, to see you lay aside your strength and pride, to be willing to no longer be the strong one.
> 
> But this growth isn't actually about him, it is about you. You cannot truly touch love until you are willing to open yourself to the devastation that it can bring. It is your fear of opening yourself like that that is in the way.
> 
> What happens when you truly let go of self preservation? You become someone fundamentally different. Your shell breaks open and you become a new creature. That is what I wish for you, because (even if he leaves) you will no longer be the woman who cheated on him.
> 
> One last thought--what would it take for you to allow yourself to be the one curled up on the floor sobbing and being held, to be the child, dependent and reborn.
> 
> Keep going!
> 
> Haz


I know I will never be the same woman who cheated, I just don't know who I am anymore.


----------



## working_together

miscommunication said:


> Working- I have been following your posts for a few days now and see a lot of my own struggles in both you and your husband. I am happy for you that things seem to be back on track. I want to share that things will be hard even though they seem better right now. I speak as both someone who cheated and has been cheated on (I had a sexual affair that lasted about 3-4 weeks, my wife had an emotional/sexual affair that started around same time as mine and lasted about a year). I have come to believe that although I was not emotionally involved the affair fulfilled an emotional need to be sexually desired and pursued so in that regard I would say mine was also emotional. You already know the guilt of having caused extreme pain so I won't add to that burden. What you ask about is triggers and I will tell you just how bad your husband has it based on my experience. Right now he has no control over the triggers. He can go from being happy and in love to being a broken spirit. Things that you see as totally innocent are like a slap in the face. Even a change in something that you do is going to be a trigger. If you decide to buy new underwear of a different color, cut, style or even material than your norm he will wonder if it's something the other man brought into your life. He is likely to question if you are thinking of the other man when having sex with him. The triggers are so extreme that he may go from being a raging bull ready to mate to not being able to get or maintain an erection. Or the physical may work but he has mental movies of the other guy making you orgasm and that will kill his ability or desire to enjoy sex. I think several others have mentioned it but the triggers don't just go away. And he may be similar to me and believe that we all make choices and that past experiences shouldn't be used as an excuse. So for him you choosing another man had nothing to do with your own internal struggles but was actually a rejection of him, his love and his manhood. I don't condone the behavior on either side (I'm guilty of it myself) but I tell you I can relate. You need to do a lot of mending and that means you have to help rebuild his confidence in himself and trust. I know you mention your kids in your posts and they are very important but you have to understand one very important thing. He needs to know and you need to prove to him that you are fighting for him. You want the marriage because you want him. Not because of the kids or because it's against your religious believes or anything else. When you cheated you didn't do it for the kids or anything else like that. You did it for your own selfish desire. Make him important enough to where you want him for just the man that he is and then show him and do it consistently.
> 
> I do hope this helps you. And I hope he gives you the same gift that my wife gave me, forgiveness and a second chance. I hope you can then give him the gift of patience, understanding, acceptance and love. Know that just like you are having your struggles with guilt he too is having his struggles. He has anger, despair, hope, love, emptiness, happiness, loneliness and many other conflicting emotions when it comes to you. I hope your future updates will carry good news. Keep working at the counseling, both of you need it, I know for my wife and I it has helped. Oh and please listen with an open mind and don't make my mistake......don't try to defend your actions/affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your input, and I agree with a lot of what you say.


----------



## JustaJerk

Maybe you can be more _proactive_, as opposed to _reactive_.


----------



## working_together

First MC session on Monday. 

It's been a quiet week, mostly talking going on.


----------



## spudster

Talking is good. Keep connecting .


----------



## 2sick

working_together said:


> First MC session on Monday.
> 
> It's been a quiet week, mostly talking going on.


Fantastic to BOTH!!!! Keep talking and good luck in counseling!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Darth Vader

> Originally Posted by Haz View Post
> Working:
> 
> *You are getting there, but you are also missing something. Yes, he needs to see you break, to see you lay aside your strength and pride, to be willing to no longer be the strong one.*
> 
> *But this growth isn't actually about him, it is about you*. *You cannot truly touch love until you are willing to open yourself to the devastation that it can bring. **It is your fear of opening yourself like that that is in the way.*
> 
> What happens when you truly let go of self preservation? You become someone fundamentally different. Your shell breaks open and you become a new creature. That is what I wish for you, because (even if he leaves) you will no longer be the woman who cheated on him.
> 
> *One last thought--what would it take for you to allow yourself to be the one curled up on the floor sobbing and being held, to be the child, dependent and reborn.
> *
> Keep going!
> 
> Haz





working_together said:


> I know I will never be the same woman who cheated, I just don't know who I am anymore.



Working! I want you to re-read this posting, and re-read the bolded and underlined parts *10,000 times!*

*This is exactly what needs to be done!*

There might, just MIGHT, be hope for you and your husband to save your marriage.............................................................................................................................................

Lastly, cute ginny pig!


----------



## working_together

Merci to everyone. I'll update Monday after appointment.


----------



## Beowulf

Working,

Remember what happened in my marriage. My wife was very, very contrite and remorseful. She did everything right. She even tolerated my emotional, verbal and almost physical abuse after I snapped. She humbled herself and never once tried to defend her actions when we argued (and believe me we did). Your husband has been dealt a serious injury and it was inflicted by the person he loved most in the entire universe. If he were involved in a car accident would it matter to you if he was at fault or would the only thing on your mind be his full and complete recovery. It doesn't matter what led up to your affair. It matters what you do about it now.

Remember..."HE SAID, SHE SAID" always leads to nobody talking to each other.


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> Working,
> 
> Remember what happened in my marriage. My wife was very, very contrite and remorseful. She did everything right. She even tolerated my emotional, verbal and almost physical abuse after I snapped. She humbled herself and never once tried to defend her actions when we argued (and believe me we did). Your husband has been dealt a serious injury and it was inflicted by the person he loved most in the entire universe. If he were involved in a car accident would it matter to you if he was at fault or would the only thing on your mind be his full and complete recovery. It doesn't matter what led up to your affair. It matters what you do about it now.
> 
> Remember..."HE SAID, SHE SAID" always leads to nobody talking to each other.


I hear what you're saying, it's not supposed to matter what led up to the affair. But the issues are mixed into the affair, and have been amplified by it. if that makes any sense. I can't really bring up the issues because I feel people will see me as not taking responsibility for my actions, or not showing any remorse, which is completely untrue. I have done everything I can to prove I am trustworthy, and open, but I'm somehow blocked on the emotional level. I'm slowly understanding why.

I'll give an example of a couple of things my husband has said over my efforts to show him that I love him, and am willing to help him all I can to make him feel secure in our relationship. I've always given him back rubs, for 25 years, he tells me recently that they feel "fake" now. I know he's questioning my sincerity in everything, I get that, and deserve that. But is this something he should say out loud, it only hurt me deeply. Now I feel stressed when doing them. Then a week or so he had had a bad week at work and was stressed and tired. So when he walked in the door and said "what a week" I went over to him hugged him, and empathized with him, touched his neck. He then responded with "I got it". I guess it's over the top coming from me, and "fake", I'm just having so much trouble knowing what to do, how much to do etc. without upsetting him.

I took a night shift Sat. night, we need the money badly. I knew it would trigger him, we talked when I got to work, told him to call me at work etc. Told him to even call on the business line just to let him know that I am where I say I am. So, the next morning the car doesn't start (his car, son had mine), and I phoned him to ask him if he had jumper cables in the car and to explain how to use them to me. He exploded with "what are you? fu*king retarded? I said nothing about the comment, but told him I didn't want to get shocked. I prayed that the car would start which it did. 

I feel like we're turning in circles, and it's been almost a year. he's stressed out about MC, he somehow thinks the counselor is going to tell him it's not worth it, which is how HE really feels.


----------



## working_together

Darth Vader said:


> Working! I want you to re-read this posting, and re-read the bolded and underlined parts *10,000 times!*
> 
> *This is exactly what needs to be done!*
> 
> There might, just MIGHT, be hope for you and your husband to save your marriage.............................................................................................................................................
> 
> Lastly, cute ginny pig!



Love my guinea pigs, they call me for food now in their little voices.

I just feel like every time I do the things I need to, he shoots me down, makes me feel humiliated for doing them, somehow like it's foolish. I keep doing them, he keeps pushing them away, then says I'm not doing anything. I don't want to remind him what I'm doing, sounds dumb, like patting myself on the back. I wrote a list of books WE need as a couple, he says "you sure they're not for you"?


----------



## FourtyPlus

working_together said:


> I hear what you're saying, it's not supposed to matter what led up to the affair. But the issues are mixed into the affair, and have been amplified by it. if that makes any sense. I can't really bring up the issues because I feel people will see me as not taking responsibility for my actions, or not showing any remorse, which is completely untrue. I have done everything I can to prove I am trustworthy, and open, but I'm somehow blocked on the emotional level. I'm slowly understanding why.
> 
> I'll give an example of a couple of things my husband has said over my efforts to show him that I love him, and am willing to help him all I can to make him feel secure in our relationship. I've always given him back rubs, for 25 years, he tells me recently that they feel "fake" now. I know he's questioning my sincerity in everything, I get that, and deserve that. But is this something he should say out loud, it only hurt me deeply. Now I feel stressed when doing them. Then a week or so he had had a bad week at work and was stressed and tired. So when he walked in the door and said "what a week" I went over to him hugged him, and empathized with him, touched his neck. He then responded with "I got it". I guess it's over the top coming from me, and "fake", I'm just having so much trouble knowing what to do, how much to do etc. without upsetting him.
> 
> I took a night shift Sat. night, we need the money badly. I knew it would trigger him, we talked when I got to work, told him to call me at work etc. Told him to even call on the business line just to let him know that I am where I say I am. So, the next morning the car doesn't start (his car, son had mine), and I phoned him to ask him if he had jumper cables in the car and to explain how to use them to me. He exploded with "what are you? fu*king retarded? I said nothing about the comment, but told him I didn't want to get shocked. I prayed that the car would start which it did.
> 
> I feel like we're turning in circles, and it's been almost a year. he's stressed out about MC, he somehow thinks the counselor is going to tell him it's not worth it, which is how HE really feels.


Can you find new ways to show your love for your husband? Cut out the back rubs. If he wants one, he can let you know. Or maybe you can just ask if he wants one, if not, then don't do it. Meanwhile I'd find other ways to show my love.
Some of the things my husband has said to me, I simply ignored. They felt like he was trying to hurt me on purpose. I don't know whether or not that's true but I simply ignore them.

I made it a habit to ask "Would you like this, would you like that?" If he does, than I'll go out of my way to do it. If the doesn't, that's fine too.

Did your husband say he feels it's not worth it or do you think he feels it's not worth it?


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> Working,
> 
> Remember what happened in my marriage. My wife was very, very contrite and remorseful. She did everything right. She even tolerated my emotional, verbal and almost physical abuse after I snapped. She humbled herself and never once tried to defend her actions when we argued (and believe me we did). Your husband has been dealt a serious injury and it was inflicted by the person he loved most in the entire universe. If he were involved in a car accident would it matter to you if he was at fault or would the only thing on your mind be his full and complete recovery. It doesn't matter what led up to your affair. It matters what you do about it now.
> 
> Remember..."HE SAID, SHE SAID" always leads to nobody talking to each other.


I don't now about others but it would matter to me why the car wreck happened. It would matter to me because I would want to avoid for it to happen ever again, at any cost. I would want to make "driving" as safe as possible. People do all kinds of things while they drive. They text, they eat, they drink, the freaking sleep! They do all sorts of other things and don't pay attention to the road. Wouldn't you want to avoid these distractions at any cost the next time you get in the car so you don't have another wreck?


----------



## strugglinghusband

I feel like we're turning in circles, and it's been almost a year. he's stressed out about MC, he somehow thinks the counselor is going to tell him it's not worth it, which is how HE really feels.[/QUOTE]

_If the counselor tells him its not worth it, time to get a new counselor.
A good counslor will never, ever tell you its time to end things....thats for you and your husband to decide.


I too like your husband am having a hard time trying to figure out my feelings about my wifes affection, sometimes I want it so badly and other times I just want her to stay away from me...


Working I truly hope you and your husband can get thru this.._


----------



## miscommunication

Your husband is hurt and he wants you to know it. His behavior is a way of showing his hurt (the question on whether or not it's right doesn't matter it's the way that he knows to make you hurt). I personally would suggest you read "The Five Love Languages" and "Desperate Marriages" both by Dr. Gary Chapman. Both were extremely helpful to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> Can you find new ways to show your love for your husband? Cut out the back rubs. If he wants one, he can let you know. Or maybe you can just ask if he wants one, if not, then don't do it. Meanwhile I'd find other ways to show my love.
> Some of the things my husband has said to me, I simply ignored. They felt like he was trying to hurt me on purpose. I don't know whether or not that's true but I simply ignore them.
> 
> I made it a habit to ask "Would you like this, would you like that?" If he does, than I'll go out of my way to do it. If the doesn't, that's fine too.
> 
> Did your husband say he feels it's not worth it or do you think he feels it's not worth it?


I think I will ask him what he wants, nix the back rubs for now. I guess I never thought of it like that, I just do what he used to like, or what I think he might like.


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## working_together

strugglinghusband said:


> I feel like we're turning in circles, and it's been almost a year. he's stressed out about MC, he somehow thinks the counselor is going to tell him it's not worth it, which is how HE really feels.


_If the counselor tells him its not worth it, time to get a new counselor.
A good counslor will never, ever tell you its time to end things....thats for you and your husband to decide.


I too like your husband am having a hard time trying to figure out my feelings about my wifes affection, sometimes I want it so badly and other times I just want her to stay away from me...


Working I truly hope you and your husband can get thru this.._[/QUOTE]

I told him that no counselor would say that, they ask you if you want the marriage. It's just the doubts he has.


----------



## working_together

MC went better than I thought. MC takes the Emotional Approach, I guess dealing with feelings, not really sure what it means, isn't all therapy about feelings. Most of the hour was discussing the affair. Hubby expressed a lot of anger and hurt over the level of deciet involved, the lies, the lies to cover up lies. 

He pointed out that we are "blocked" in terms of the affair. MC says that when I express emotions and begin to cry, hubby reaches in to stop me from being upset as though to protect me. He hates to see me cry. MC said that he needs to let me express my feelings about the affair, what I did etc. What ends up happening is I just stop because I see it hurting my husband, he gets teary eyed etc. In terms of the "fake" feeling, MC says that hubby is being honest, expressing himself. The other counselor had said that as well.



That's pretty much the session. I have an individual session on Wed.


----------



## Badblood

Working...STOP ANTICIPATING YOUR HUSBAND!!! Don't you see that you are STILL trying to control the situation? Do you not understand the word humility? Tell him that HE IS IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING, for as long as HE wants and needs to be. Tell him to tell you what to do, and say that you will willingly obey, everything, every time , to the best of your ability. Then he will have to decide what he wants and what conditions to set. Everything and anything you did BEFORE the Affair is now tainted by what happened, and until he has made the decision to forgive (and mean it) your motives will be suspect. ASK HIM!! Geez!!!!! My wife did this right after D-day. She would cook my favorites, wear clothes and lingerie that I liked, Do anything sexual I wanted, even told me I could whip her if I wanted. What I wanted was for her to stop patronizing me, and to tell me what was in her mind, before, during, and after the affair.


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## working_together

Badblood said:


> Working...STOP ANTICIPATING YOUR HUSBAND!!! Don't you see that you are STILL trying to control the situation? Do you not understand the word humility? Tell him that HE IS IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING, for as long as HE wants and needs to be. Tell him to tell you what to do, and say that you will willingly obey. Then he will have to decide what he wants and what conditions to set. Everything and anything you did BEFORE the Affair is now tainted by what happened, and until he has made the decision to forgive (and mean it) your motives will be suspect. ASK HIM!! Geez!!!!!


If you're referring to the making him feel better, then I agree. I'm going to ask him what he wants from me, I guess it could be control, he's always saying I'm controling. Fine, I get that part. I got the point...


----------



## Badblood

Okay, but it seems to me that you are constantly doing this, and for the sake of your relationship, you've got to stop. Trust me on this. NOTHING you do or don't do is going to make him forget that you chose another man. You couldn't have emasculated him any more , if you had used hedge clippers. Until He can come to terms with that issue, 








or you can (perhaps through your counselor) somehow prove that you didn't mean it or it was a mental ****-up on your part, and lay it to rest, you will be spinning your wheels. But soothing his ego, patronizing him or otherwise treating him like a time-bomb, won't help. Communicating to him your subservience to his needs, in both public and private, will pay dividends. Wheever you get the opportunity, tell friends, family or anybody else how much in love with him, you are, and how humble you are that he has given you another chance. Even if he isn't present , it will get back to him, and make you look much more trustworthy and sincere.


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> I don't now about others but it would matter to me why the car wreck happened. It would matter to me because I would want to avoid for it to happen ever again, at any cost. I would want to make "driving" as safe as possible. People do all kinds of things while they drive. They text, they eat, they drink, the freaking sleep! They do all sorts of other things and don't pay attention to the road. Wouldn't you want to avoid these distractions at any cost the next time you get in the car so you don't have another wreck?


Of course it matters WHY it happened but my point was that in order to get to the point where the relationship can be repaired there has to be an understanding that both parties WANT the relationship. If working is still on the defensive and/or letting her pride stand in the way of true remorse then the problems that exist/existed in the marriage will not be solved. If there is even the slightest perception that the affair is being blamed on marital shortcomings then her husband will not be able to heal enough to get beyond her affair and work on the marriage.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> Okay, but it seems to me that you are constantly doing this, and for the sake of your relationship, you've got to stop. Trust me on this. NOTHING you do or don't do is going to make him forget that you chose another man. You couldn't have emasculated him any more , if you had used hedge clippers. Until He can come to terms with that issue,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or you can (perhaps through your counselor) somehow prove that you didn't mean it or it was a mental ****-up on your part, and lay it to rest, you will be spinning your wheels. But soothing his ego, patronizing him or otherwise treating him like a time-bomb, won't help. Communicating to him your subservience to his needs, in both public and private, will pay dividends. Wheever you get the opportunity, tell friends, family or anybody else how much in love with him, you are, and how humble you are that he has given you another chance. Even if he isn't present , it will get back to him, and make you look much more trustworthy and sincere.


:iagree:


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> Of course it matters WHY it happened but my point was that in order to get to the point where the relationship can be repaired there has to be an understanding that both parties WANT the relationship. If working is still on the defensive and/or letting her pride stand in the way of true remorse then the problems that exist/existed in the marriage will not be solved. If there is even the slightest perception that the affair is being blamed on marital shortcomings then her husband will not be able to heal enough to get beyond her affair and work on the marriage.


I agree, the pride must be gone and there can't be blame. I think she understands that marital problems didn't make her cheat, she did that by her own choice - the pride thing is much harder to overcome, I speak from experience.


----------



## Darth Vader

FourtyPlus said:


> I agree, the pride must be gone and there can't be blame. I think she understands that marital problems didn't make her cheat, she did that by her own choice - the pride thing is much harder to overcome, I speak from experience.


I thought I detected a controling nature from her posts. As a matter of fact, it seems many cheaters are controlers, or have controling personalities. This tells me, by looking at the name of the Thread, that she's desireous to control the triggers(which are going to happen), hence controling how her husband feels (that can't be done!). Her husband may feel like she's trying to control him by her doing all the things she's said she's been doing for him, to him, that ain't gonna wash! Actually, that'd be more insulting to him and add to injury! Hubby may also feel he couldn't get her to do certain things before the affair, so why should she bother after the affair? Obviously it would feel fake to him, and it should!


----------



## Beowulf

Darth Vader said:


> I thought I detected a controling nature from her posts. As a matter of fact, it seems many cheaters are controlers, or have controling personalities. This tells me, by looking at the name of the Thread, that she's desireous to control the triggers(which are going to happen), hence controling how her husband feels (that can't be done!). Her husband may feel like she's trying to control him by her doing all the things she's said she's been doing for him, to him, that ain't gonna wash! Actually, that'd be more insulting to him and add to injury! Hubby may also feel he couldn't get her to do certain things before the affair, so why should she bother after the affair? Obviously it would feel fake to him, and it should!


On the other hand I'm sure there are many things that she should have done for her husband before she had the affair and didn't because it wasn't "natural" for her to do them but it was necessary to have a healthy marriage. Now if she tries to do those things it will feel fake or forced for a while until it becomes more natural for her. I don't think she needs to stop doing those things even if they feel forced to her and her husband. But she needs to be able to communicate to him that she knows she should have done them before and she's trying to learn to be a better wife for him.

I think the main problem is that her pride is getting in her way. While she may be physically doing the things necessary for R she hasn't truly humbled herself. I think her husband is picking up on it. Working seems like a very strong willed woman but I think it is that very quality that is working (no pun intended) against her. "Pride goeth before a fall" seems to be very applicable in this case but I hope she figures it out before the fall comes. I really think she and her husband could get through this if they stick with it.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Darth Vader said:


> I thought I detected a controling nature from her posts. As a matter of fact, it seems many cheaters are controlers, or have controling personalities. This tells me, by looking at the name of the Thread, that she's desireous to control the triggers(which are going to happen), hence controling how her husband feels (that can't be done!). Her husband may feel like she's trying to control him by her doing all the things she's said she's been doing for him, to him, that ain't gonna wash! Actually, that'd be more insulting to him and add to injury! Hubby may also feel he couldn't get her to do certain things before the affair, so why should she bother after the affair? Obviously it would feel fake to him, and it should!


Why should she bother after the affair? Here's why: might be that she knows what was wrong with her marriage before the affair. Now that the affair is over, she's trying to fix what was wrong. How hard is that to understand?


----------



## Darth Vader

FourtyPlus said:


> Why should she bother after the affair? Here's why: might be that she knows what was wrong with her marriage before the affair. Now that the affair is over, she's trying to fix what was wrong. How hard is that to understand?


Then if she knew what was wrong with her marriage before her affair, why have the affair? Just fix the marriage and not have the affair as well as not hurt her husband! How hard is that for you to understand? Henceforth now after the affair, why bother, the damage's done?!


----------



## working_together

Darth Vader said:


> Then if she knew what was wrong with her marriage before her affair, why have the affair? Just fix the marriage and not have the affair as well as not hurt her husband! How hard is that for you to understand? Henceforth now after the affair, why bother, the damage's done?!


Are you done yet? so now I'm controling??? you people do not know me well enough to make such a harsh judgement. I have had no control my entire marriage. I met with the MC the other day, and he has serious concerns for me. This affair has brought out a major issue in my marriage that I had no idea was happening, I thought I was crazy, effed up etc.

The pride is not pride at all, it's my anger over what has happened over the years. I tried to fix it with fu&king trips, with comfort, many things, it never worked. How could people think I didn't give my husband what he needed before my affair??? I tried for 25 years to make it work all while I was told it was my fault, I could do nothing right, he'd tell me "you were nothing when I met you, and you're still nothing", I heard that so many times I tuned it out. Being called a d&uch, ****, who%re in front of my kids for a year. But no, I can't talk about that here, I'm a cheater right? I have no morals, I'm the controling abusive one. yeah, I effed up big time with the affair, and have always said that here and to my husband, he agrees I feel bad or guilty, but he just kept telling me that I don't show enough remorse. What about the remorse for the way I was treated like a dog. I never got a "sorry" out of him. The way he manipulated me from the age of 18 when I did not know better, and was meek and mild the way he wanted me. I got older more independent, he hated it, I had friends, he detested the fact that people would like me. He was jealous that I went to a prestigious university, so he followed and did the same. Except he laughed at my marks, made me feel like a B was awful. 

MC will meet with him tomorrow, it's really no use. Counselor told me that if my H.'s beh. doesnt start to change immed. he has to leave. I talked to H. about his behaviour for many years, "stop getting so angry at me", he couldn't stop. When he almost had a fist fight with my older son a few weeks ago, I cringed, I could do nothing but tell my son to walk away. 

So I shared this with H. gave him examples from our past, asked him if he remember when I went away that summer and came back, my friend hugged me first, he was livid with me for allowing her to do that. I told him that I hugged you and kissed you right after, she just happened to run up to me first. I told him some of what the counselor said, he said "don't worry, I'm leaving, and I'm releived". It's like what I had just told him was nothing. 

So, I have always realized I made the worst decision in my life when I had the affair. If only I had ended my marriage before, but i did not know what was wrong, I had no label for it. I felt stuck, always pulled back in somehow. Everything would be turned around to make it look like it was me, I had to fix myself. I thought he had a temper, anger issues, and with time and age it would fade. I feel horrible that he is even worse than before, more angry, more name calling, and without consideration that his children hear this. And that's all on me.

So he left two days ago, and the house does feel different. He signed a lease at an apartment, told me he can't give any money for the kids for a few months while he settles in. I'm like fine, I'll manage.

You can call me a troll, or that I'm placing blame on my husband for the affair I had. It doesn't matter any more, it's over, and both of us will have peace of mind.

I don't need people to make any comments really, but I felt the need to at least explain a few things. And I'm really not in any mood for hateful comments.

welcome to the jungle


----------



## warlock07

Calm down first.



> I tried for 25 years to make it work all while I was told it was my fault "you were nothing when I met you, and you're still nothing",


Can you talk about this a bit more? Was the husband abusive before the affair? You haven't spoken about if before. Looks like things are much deeper than you let us know about.(Of course you were being attacked about saying anything slightly critical of your husband.)


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Calm down first.
> 
> 
> Can you talk about this a bit more? Was the husband abusive before the affair? You haven't spoken about if before. Looks like things are much deeper than you let us know about.(Of course you were being attacked about saying anything slightly critical of your husband.)


It's pretty much all in the above post I made. he's going to read it I know, but I've said it to him anyway. How could I say any of this? people would think I'm a b, and kick me down some more. I tried to keep it to the affair, but it got to the point where i could no longer not say something, and I really never thought it was as bad as it was. I just thought he was an angry man, and when times were tough, I told myself, "he's going through a hard time", then it would ease up enough to make it seem ok. Then a crisis would happen, and yep, i got it again.

So yeah, I'm pretty angry at him.


----------



## Darth Vader

working_together said:


> Are you done yet? so now I'm controling??? you people do not know me well enough to make such a harsh judgement. I have had no control my entire marriage. I met with the MC the other day, and he has serious concerns for me. This affair has brought out a major issue in my marriage that I had no idea was happening, I thought I was crazy, effed up etc.
> 
> The pride is not pride at all, it's my anger over what has happened over the years. I tried to fix it with fu&king trips, with comfort, many things, it never worked. How could people think I didn't give my husband what he needed before my affair??? I tried for 25 years to make it work all while I was told it was my fault "you were nothing when I met you, and you're still nothing", I heard that so many times I tuned it out. Being called a d&uch, ****, who%re in front of my kids for a year. But no, I can't talk about that here, I'm a cheater right? I have no morals, I'm the controling abusive one. yeah, I effed up big time with the affair, and have always said that here and to my husband, he agrees I feel bad or guilty, but he just kept telling me that I don't show enough remorse. What about the remorse for the way I was treated like a dog. I never got a "sorry" out of him. The way he manipulated me from the age of 18 when I did not know better, and was meek and mild the way he wanted me. I got older more independent, he hated it, I had friends, he detested the fact that people would like me.
> 
> MC will meet with him tomorrow, it's really no use. Counselor told me that if my H.'s beh. doesnt start to change immed. he has to leave. I talked to H. about his behaviour for many years, "stop getting so angry at me", he couldn't stop. When he almost had a fist fight with my older son a few weeks ago, I cringed, I could do nothing but tell my son to walk away.
> 
> So I shared this with H. gave him examples from our past, asked him if he remember when I went away that summer and came back, my friend hugged me first, he was livid with me for allowing her to do that. I told him that I hugged you and kissed you right after, she just happened to run up to me first. I told him some of what the counselor said, he said "don't worry, I'm leaving, and I'm releived". It's like what I had just told him was nothing.
> 
> So, I have always realized I made the worst decision in my life when I had the affair. If only I had ended my marriage before, but i did not know what was wrong, I had no label for it. I felt stuck, always pulled back in somehow. Everything would be turned around to make it look like it was me, I had to fix myself. I thought he had a temper, anger issues, and with time and age it would fade. I feel horrible that he is even worse than before, more angry, more name calling, and without consideration that his children hear this. And that's all on me.
> 
> So he left two days ago, and the house does feel different. He signed a lease at an apartment, told me he can't give any money for the kids for a few months while he settles in. I'm like fine, I'll manage.
> 
> You can call me a troll, or that I'm placing blame on my husband for the affair I had. It doesn't matter any more, it's over, and both of us will have peace of mind.
> 
> I don't need people to make any comments really, but I felt the need to at least explain a few things. And I'm really not in any mood for hateful comments.
> 
> welcome to the jungle


Hey Missy! I'm not the only one who has noticed your controling nature! So get it right and quit being a *****! It's amazing how many people on here don't read everything, they seem to skip a lot of things!

For one thing, you said you both were back together........

Secondly, it sounds awfully like blameshifting and justifing you having an affair to me.

And Lastly, I wasn't even speaking to you in my last posting...............................................................

But since I am speaking to you now, some people think I'm harsh to you, Even a Bastard, PLEASE! I'm nothing to deal with compared to your husband, at least not now anyway.


----------



## working_together

Darth Vader said:


> Hey Missy! I'm not the only one who has noticed your controling nature! So get it right and quit being a *****! It's amazing how many people on here don't read everything, they seem to skip a lot of things!
> 
> For one thing, you said you both were back together........
> 
> Secondly, it sounds awfully like blameshifting and justifing you having an affair to me.
> 
> And Lastly, I wasn't even speaking to you in my last posting...............................................................
> 
> But since I am speaking to you now, some people think I'm harsh to you, Even a Bastard, PLEASE! I'm nothing to deal with compared to your husband, at least not now anyway.


----------



## Complexity

working_together said:


> Are you done yet? so now I'm controling??? you people do not know me well enough to make such a harsh judgement. I have had no control my entire marriage. I met with the MC the other day, and he has serious concerns for me. This affair has brought out a major issue in my marriage that I had no idea was happening, I thought I was crazy, effed up etc.
> 
> The pride is not pride at all, it's my anger over what has happened over the years. I tried to fix it with fu&king trips, with comfort, many things, it never worked. How could people think I didn't give my husband what he needed before my affair??? I tried for 25 years to make it work all while I was told it was my fault, I could do nothing right, he'd tell me "you were nothing when I met you, and you're still nothing", I heard that so many times I tuned it out. Being called a d&uch, ****, who%re in front of my kids for a year. But no, I can't talk about that here, I'm a cheater right? I have no morals, I'm the controling abusive one. yeah, I effed up big time with the affair, and have always said that here and to my husband, he agrees I feel bad or guilty, but he just kept telling me that I don't show enough remorse. What about the remorse for the way I was treated like a dog. I never got a "sorry" out of him. The way he manipulated me from the age of 18 when I did not know better, and was meek and mild the way he wanted me. I got older more independent, he hated it, I had friends, he detested the fact that people would like me. He was jealous that I went to a prestigious university, so he followed and did the same. Except he laughed at my marks, made me feel like a B was awful.
> 
> MC will meet with him tomorrow, it's really no use. Counselor told me that if my H.'s beh. doesnt start to change immed. he has to leave. I talked to H. about his behaviour for many years, "stop getting so angry at me", he couldn't stop. When he almost had a fist fight with my older son a few weeks ago, I cringed, I could do nothing but tell my son to walk away.
> 
> So I shared this with H. gave him examples from our past, asked him if he remember when I went away that summer and came back, my friend hugged me first, he was livid with me for allowing her to do that. I told him that I hugged you and kissed you right after, she just happened to run up to me first. I told him some of what the counselor said, he said "don't worry, I'm leaving, and I'm releived". It's like what I had just told him was nothing.
> 
> So, I have always realized I made the worst decision in my life when I had the affair. If only I had ended my marriage before, but i did not know what was wrong, I had no label for it. I felt stuck, always pulled back in somehow. Everything would be turned around to make it look like it was me, I had to fix myself. I thought he had a temper, anger issues, and with time and age it would fade. I feel horrible that he is even worse than before, more angry, more name calling, and without consideration that his children hear this. And that's all on me.
> 
> So he left two days ago, and the house does feel different. He signed a lease at an apartment, told me he can't give any money for the kids for a few months while he settles in. I'm like fine, I'll manage.
> 
> You can call me a troll, or that I'm placing blame on my husband for the affair I had. It doesn't matter any more, it's over, and both of us will have peace of mind.
> 
> I don't need people to make any comments really, but I felt the need to at least explain a few things. And I'm really not in any mood for hateful comments.
> 
> welcome to the jungle


Thank you for writing this. It shone light on a lot of unanswered questions and really gave me a different perception of you (in a good way)


----------



## Darth Vader

working_together said:


> Oh I know you're pretty tame in comparision.


Well, at least as far as this situation's concerned, but, anyway, at least we sort of agree on something.

Ready to not act like Miss Pissy?


----------



## Darth Vader

Complexity said:


> Thank you for writing this. It shone light on a lot of unanswered questions and really gave me a different perception of you (in a good way)


It's strange she didn't think it was pertinent to inform us of this beforehand, however, it still wouldn't have had any merit to her actions, it just would have provided more of what happened up to the affair.


----------



## working_together

Darth Vader said:


> Well, at least as far as this situation's concerned, but, anyway, at least we sort of agree on something.
> 
> Ready to not act like Miss Pissy?


I don't get all that "pissy"....only when fed up.


----------



## Darth Vader

working_together said:


> I don't get all that "pissy"....only when fed up.


Ok, like I was saying........

I thought you two got back together and was making a go of it, what happened?:scratchhead:


----------



## Complexity

Darth Vader said:


> It's strange she didn't think it was pertinent to inform us of this beforehand, however, it still wouldn't have had any merit to her actions, it just would have provided more of what happened up to the affair.


Vader, even if she did mention it, people wouldn't have given her chance and would've dismissed it as blameshifting. It's important to understand the background to these things so people wouldn't be quick to make character assassinations. Initially I thought she had the stereotypical excuse of "my husband didn't give me attention blah blah blah" but what she's written now has given me a completely different understanding of their relationship. The affair isn't the be all, end all of working.


----------



## warlock07

The similar thing is happening in the Devastated's thread too. Whether it is blame shifting or not, we need to hear both sides of the story. We are never going to get a complete and perfect picture

Working, the other day you were just going on how much you love him. Maybe these highs and lows that are usual roller coaster aftermath of an affair


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> The similar thing is happening in the Devastated's thread too. Whether it is blame shifting or not, we need to hear both sides of the story. We are never going to get a complete and perfect picture
> 
> Working, the other day you were just going on how much you love him. Maybe these highs and lows that are usual roller coaster aftermath of an affair


I remember saying how much I loved him, and I do, I guess I would see some little sign that it would get better between us, and I was trying to think about all the good times.


The really sick thing that should have been a red flag for me, but since I cheated I felt like I deserved it. The first time we had sex after R. during sex he was agressive and said "did you like f*cking Om, did it feel like this", I was afraid to stop him thinking he would feel rejected, I just turned my head away from his face. I thought it might have been a normal reaction.

The one good thing is that I'm pretty damn smart, and get up pretty fast when I fall. I've got a lot of making up with my two smaller kids, they've been exposed to so much, and I should have known better as a social worker, but now they have my undivided attention. I'm no longer kept hostage at the kitchen table for hours on end.


----------



## working_together

Darth Vader said:


> Ok, like I was saying........
> 
> I thought you two got back together and was making a go of it, what happened?:scratchhead:


We are very much done.


----------



## warlock07

Looks like pent up anger and resentment for all the stuff he put you through R(while giving up easily ?)


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Looks like pent up anger and resentment for all the stuff he put you through R(while giving up easily ?)


Not sure what you're saying? who gave up easily, if it's him, yeah, he basically told me a few days ago "I don't love you anymore, and I'm relieved it's over".

He's confronting therapist tomorrow about what I told him. 

Weirdly enough since I told hubby that I thought he was e/a, he has been stone quiet, nothing, almost silence on his end.


----------



## warlock07

What exactly did the MC tell you?


Maybe change your MC? See if he/she will come up with similar observations. Some MC's are crap. They are human after all


----------



## Badblood

Warlock and all. This is a lost cause. Working is not now nor has she ever been remorseful, nor was her coming to TAM an honest attempt to reconcile or rebuild her marriage, but a bogus attempt to get justification.. I just took some time and went back over her threads and one thing struck me immediately. Whenever anyone calls her on her pride issue or about her choosing the OM over her husband, she always becomes angry and defensive. The question I have, is who has the anger issues here, her husband or her? In most of her posts, she will show her true passive-aggressive agenda, " yes I cheated, but my husband did this or that", and she will bring up her husband's bad relationships with her kids (we only have her word for any of this), etc. Showing that she is really a wonderful person, who was forced into the affair as a last resort because of her husband's abusive behavior. Again, we only have her word for this. I was right in her first post, she is still an arrogant, passive-aggressive, manipulating person, who will NEVER be truly sorry for her actions, because she will always be able to justify them to herself. I will post no more on her threads. Good luck to her.


----------



## Badblood

I will put her on "Ignore" from now on.


----------



## JustaJerk

> Warlock and all. This is a lost cause. Working is not now nor has she ever been remorseful, nor was her coming to TAM an honest attempt to reconcile or rebuild her marriage, but a bogus attempt to get justification.. I just took some time and went back over her threads and one thing struck me immediately. Whenever anyone calls her on her pride issue or about her choosing the OM over her husband, she always becomes angry and defensive. The question I have, is who has the anger issues here, her husband or her? In most of her posts, she will show her true passive-aggressive agenda, " yes I cheated, but my husband did this or that", and she will bring up her husband's bad relationships with her kids (we only have her word for any of this), etc. Showing that she is really a wonderful person, who was forced into the affair as a last resort because of her husband's abusive behavior. Again, we only have her word for this. I was right in her first post, she is still an arrogant, passive-aggressive, manipulating person, who will NEVER be truly sorry for her actions, because she will always be able to justify them to herself. I will post no more on her threads. Good luck to her.


Are you [email protected]#$ing serious???

It seems like whenever it doesn't go the way _you_ like it, the person in question is a lost cause.

She put her whole life out on here for everyone to read and chime in, and all you got to say is this sh!t?

You've treated her whole thread like some botched tactical blunder on the battlefield. 

If you notice there were deeper issues than that at play here. The affair was a by-product and culmination of this dysfunction. By no means am I condoning her actions(the affair), but to call her out like that because she wasn't "_putting in the effort_" is preposterous. You need to really tone down that hard-ass drill instructor attitude. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Darth Vader said:


> Then if she knew what was wrong with her marriage before her affair, why have the affair? Just fix the marriage and not have the affair as well as not hurt her husband! How hard is that for you to understand? Henceforth now after the affair, why bother, the damage's done?!


She knows NOW what was wrong with her marriage before the affair. I didn't say she knew it before. Sorry, my bad for not being more clear.
So again, she knows NOW what was wrong with her marriage before the affair, that's why she is NOW trying to fix it. If you look at all the topics on this forum, it's never that the WS says "Uh, something was wrong with my marriage, so I went and had an affair in order to be able to fix the marriage problems after the affair!" Doesn't make much sense, does it?
It's more like WS feels something isn't right, they don't know how to deal with it. They might try to work on it but it doesn't work out for various reasons. Along comes the OM/OW and the WS slithers in the affair. I haven't read one WS story where the WS wakes up in the morning saying "Hm, today's a good day to start an affair. Should it be Larry from Facebook, John from work? Ohhh, maybe Henry, the mailman!" It doesn't work that way.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Complexity said:


> Vader, even if she did mention it, people wouldn't have given her chance and would've dismissed it as blameshifting. It's important to understand the background to these things so people wouldn't be quick to make character assassinations. Initially I thought she had the stereotypical excuse of "my husband didn't give me attention blah blah blah" but what she's written now has given me a completely different understanding of their relationship. The affair isn't the be all, end all of working.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> What exactly did the MC tell you?
> 
> 
> Maybe change your MC? See if he/she will come up with similar observations. Some MC's are crap. They are human after all


I don't think the MC is wrong with what he has said. I revealed my family history, my parents divorce, my mother's lack a daisy reaction at the time. MC said I felt abandoned by both parents (I was 9). I never looked at it that way, I don't want to play victim, yeah it sucked, but I was mostly angry at my mom for being so cheap.

The MC asked me if I was scared of him, I said "no", but he asked what it feels inside, I realized that it is scary, I never knew when he would blow up at me, or just yell about nothing. MC referred to it as emotionally feeling unsafe. I was never allowed to leave the room when he was "lecturing". I would say I was going to bed, he would follow me and continue on. The therapist said that the only way our marriage improves is if he seeks help for his issues, and if he doesn't he has to leave the home. I explained some stuff that is going on with my daughter. My little guy is fine, he seems to have no behaviours really. My daughter on the other hand concerns me. She is having difficulty focusing at school (never a problem), she can't complete work etc. I thought maybe it was just the arguements she was reacting to. Then at ballet last week, what I saw made me ill, my jaw dropped. I had never seen her behave this way. She was lying on the floor in a circle with all the girls. I watched her go out of her way to intimidate the girl, the girl kept moving away, and she continued. The look on her face scared me. She's watched her dad very closely.

The other counselor we saw saw my husband's beh. as ADD, and kept saying that it causes relationship problems. She thought that once he got treatment for it, things would be better. He left the room in a rage one time, and she said to me "why do you stay with him". I said "I don't know". He came back in right after, the topic was dropped. I thought about that question a lot after, brought it up with H. one time. He became furious, and said he was going to call her, he never did.

About two weeks ago I started looking up e/a on the net. I went to work one day, was counseling a woman, what she revealed was exactly what my husband does to me. I had only worked with physical abuse, I never focused on the emotional, yeah, I thought it came with the physical, but not alone.

The final eye opener was a couple of weeks ago, H. yelled at my son's pre-school teacher for a minor thing that could have been handled calmly. They had a blow out, he came home yelling at me "you better talk to her". So the next day I asked her what had happened and she gave me her version. She said he arrived in a bad mood, and basically took it out on her. My son adores her, she treats him like a king. I felt like an idiot trying to come in and fix my H.'s problem.

So, no, the counselor's observation is correct. It's not like he came out and said what it was. But he said said that it was easy for me to get into this type of relationship with my past, the way I feel guilty about things.


----------



## warlock07

Badblood said:


> Warlock and all. This is a lost cause. Working is not now nor has she ever been remorseful, nor was her coming to TAM an honest attempt to reconcile or rebuild her marriage, but a bogus attempt to get justification.. I just took some time and went back over her threads and one thing struck me immediately. Whenever anyone calls her on her pride issue or about her choosing the OM over her husband, she always becomes angry and defensive. The question I have, is who has the anger issues here, her husband or her? In most of her posts, she will show her true passive-aggressive agenda, " yes I cheated, but my husband did this or that", and she will bring up her husband's bad relationships with her kids (we only have her word for any of this), etc. Showing that she is really a wonderful person, who was forced into the affair as a last resort because of her husband's abusive behavior. Again, we only have her word for this. I was right in her first post, she is still an arrogant, passive-aggressive, manipulating person, who will NEVER be truly sorry for her actions, because she will always be able to justify them to herself. I will post no more on her threads. Good luck to her.


I am shocked by your response.
Badblood, maybe because you are going through a divorce after your wife's infidelity, you are taking it a little too personal. Back off a little and think about it. We can only tell her what she needs to do. Not everyone can do it.

There are more issues than we can see here. Her version, her husband's version and the forum member's version(which is a heavily censored version due to the members heavily attacking WS.) Not every BS can handle the infidelity properly. He might be abusing the WS as a coping mecahnism. Should she bear that? Some can, some cannot. That is a lose lose scenario for both the parties. Whether working's BS is abusing her or not, do you agree that this forum is not suitable for a WS to grieve/vent about the situation if the BS is abusing her? 

I don't think the issues are black and white. I don't think she is lying or dishonest to us. It is skewed, definitely. Happens in a POV. At the worst, she is someone that too weak and not strong enough to handle rigors of R. Someone who is too selfish to make the necessary personal sacrifices for R. At the best, the husband turned into a abuser, while trying to cope his own demons. I think the situation is somewhere in the middle. She is unable to take the stress of an R put on by her husband who cannot forgive her. If he indeed is calling her a wh0re/b!tch infront of her children repeatedly, that is not OK. She mentioned the fight between her son and her husband before.(don't remember). So I don't think she is lying about that either. She even mentioned the children acting up because of the fights.

Only in recent posts did I find the tones more accusatory. I think it is the pent up feeling/resentment she was feeling all this time. She is in a bit of anger this past week(they broke up twice) and letting it all out instead of keeping it to herself like she did these past few weeks. But I think the marriage counselor suddenly opening her eyes to the abuse in her marriage is a bit over the top. That is, she is very angry at her husband right now and he is telling her exactly what she wants to hear right now. She wants him to be at fault if this indeed does not work out(she did put some work in the past couple of months). I think she will be more rational in a week or two when the anger subsides.
Maybe separation is the best thing for the time being


----------



## working_together

I know I'm not an angel, I have reacted often to my husband's behavior. I was frustrated because no matter what I did, he'd critisize me, blame me. I got fed up, and would fight back with my words, he'd twist them, I got better at arguing, it was like he was a lawyer and I was his client.

I give him credit though, he was able to help me become more assertive over the years, he pretty much imposed that on me.

The affair is all on me, I know that. I don't want to justify what I did, I need to understand why I made such a drastic decision. I know I was very happy to just sit down and have coffee with someone of the opposite sex who would listen to me, and not turn my words around, or disagree with everything I said. Sex was just there, not often, just went with the affair.


----------



## working_together

It wasn't just the counselor, it was everything, his office was just a place to talk about my feelings.

I know we had a very dysfunctional dynamic, I own 50 percent of that. I only started "fighting back" in recent years. It deteriorated quickly after that.


----------



## lascarx

All sounds like sad stuff.

But why come in with half a story for all that time? And if you know you're coming in with half a story, why get bent out of shape and distressed about the reactions you get all the live long day? After all, people don't know any more than you tell them.

I think what you were looking for was a place to get pumped up. Now you found some head-shrinker to take your side and you blow up at everyone because you finally found yourself a real pal and don't need the anonymous peanut gallery anymore.

Your main problem, in my eyes, is that you need to be understood. You're going to be a screw-up as long as you can't figure out how to go it with courage, be damned to the world. From my reading, which is admittedly incomplete, that's your man's problem in large part as well.



> It's more like WS feels something isn't right, they don't know how to deal with it. They might try to work on it but it doesn't work out for various reasons. Along comes the OM/OW and the WS slithers in the affair. I haven't read one WS story where the WS wakes up in the morning saying "Hm, today's a good day to start an affair. Should it be Larry from Facebook, John from work? Ohhh, maybe Henry, the mailman!" It doesn't work that way.


If anything, this is probably what you were looking to hear from day one. I say it's no excuse, there are people who were put to death by the states in which they lived for doing bad stuff because "they felt something was wrong, they didn't know how to deal with it, and along came that convenience store, and they just slithered into murder during the commission of a robbery." Thrill-kill instead of hide-the-sausage, but it's all the same to the limbic system, I figure. Doesn't mean I see unfaithfulness on the level of a capital crime, but around here you call a spade a spade and most people do know right from wrong. You do, and your man does, and it looks like you both turned your backs on it, and you're both now looking for excuses.

I don't know what makes my wife do what she does, but I can say clearly that I did not do anything to warrant it. It doesn't matter because she's somehow put it all together in her own head such that she need not feel a twinge about it, she doesn't know what remorse is. I'm guessing you're not such a reptile as she is but you do need to examine your own self, your husband needs to examine himself, and fix yourselves, on your lonesomes, without rancor towards each other.


----------



## warlock07

Emotional abuse is there definitely. But I assumed that they started after the affair. Were they present before the affair? Which is where everyone recommended IC for your husband. And to be fair, the last few posts from you, its like you are trying to find faults with him.



> I was never allowed to leave the room when he was "lecturing". I would say I was going to bed, he would follow me and continue on.


This is not OK but this isn't a big deal either IMO. At least shouldn't be a marriage breaker.


All the issues that you described are to do with his anger. He is unable to control his anger and taking it out on you. Even in front of his kids. You don't have to take it. But it might give you a chance if you can have it fixed. It might be PTSD as another forum member commented. Does he acknowledge that he has anger problems? Have you talked to him about the school incident?


----------



## Complexity

Badblood said:


> Warlock and all. This is a lost cause. Working is not now nor has she ever been remorseful, nor was her coming to TAM an honest attempt to reconcile or rebuild her marriage, but a bogus attempt to get justification.. I just took some time and went back over her threads and one thing struck me immediately. Whenever anyone calls her on her pride issue or about her choosing the OM over her husband, she always becomes angry and defensive. The question I have, is who has the anger issues here, her husband or her? In most of her posts, she will show her true passive-aggressive agenda, " yes I cheated, but my husband did this or that", and she will bring up her husband's bad relationships with her kids (we only have her word for any of this), etc. Showing that she is really a wonderful person, who was forced into the affair as a last resort because of her husband's abusive behavior. Again, we only have her word for this. I was right in her first post, she is still an arrogant, passive-aggressive, manipulating person, who will NEVER be truly sorry for her actions, because she will always be able to justify them to herself. I will post no more on her threads. Good luck to her.


This is not fair to be honest.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Emotional abuse is there definitely. But I assumed that they started after the affair. Were they present before the affair? Which is where everyone recommended IC for your husband. And to be fair, the last few posts from you, its like you are trying to find faults with him.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not OK but this isn't a big deal either IMO. At least shouldn't be a marriage breaker.
> 
> 
> All the issues that you described are to do with his anger. He is unable to control his anger and taking it out on you. Even in front of his kids. You don't have to take it. But it might give you a chance if you can have it fixed. It might be PTSD as another forum member commented. Does he acknowledge that he has anger problems? Have you talked to him about the school incident?


The e/a was present when we met. I did not notice it much, I was young, not much experience in life, pretty much sheltered in some ways. It was always subtle I think, I would feel as though something was wrong, but didn't know what it was. When something horrible would happen to him, and many things have, he would then become discouraged, and deal with it with his anger. He was a very generous man, he would go out of his way to help others, he wanted to feel good about himself. I wasn't enough to make him feel better, was I selfish? maybe, sometimes I just wanted to say "get over it".

He's been to therapy a few times, he sees one regularly now. But like we say here, it's his perception, and that's what she works with. I can't worry if he's going to be "fixed" anymore. He somewhat agrees that he has an anger problem, but justifies it by saying if I listened to him, or didn't do things, he wouldn't get so angry. Same with our oldest son. He continually says he has no respect for him, but it's a two way street, when you wave a finger in someone's face, what does a person expect. We have talked about our relationship difficulties for years. He never takes ownership for what has happened, I don't expect him to take any for my affair, but even just to look at his part is impossible.

I've always share everything with him, and have told him about our daughter's difficulties, I said I was worried the arguments were getting to her (didn't mention the put downs, name calling), he got defensive and said "so it's all my fault eh?"

We are toxic together, and we can never R. It's unhealthy for us, and our kids.


----------



## working_together

lascarx said:


> All sounds like sad stuff.
> 
> But why come in with half a story for all that time? And if you know you're coming in with half a story, why get bent out of shape and distressed about the reactions you get all the live long day? After all, people don't know any more than you tell them.
> 
> I think what you were looking for was a place to get pumped up. Now you found some head-shrinker to take your side and you blow up at everyone because you finally found yourself a real pal and don't need the anonymous peanut gallery anymore.
> 
> Your main problem, in my eyes, is that you need to be understood. You're going to be a screw-up as long as you can't figure out how to go it with courage, be damned to the world. From my reading, which is admittedly incomplete, that's your man's problem in large part as well.
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, this is probably what you were looking to hear from day one. I say it's no excuse, there are people who were put to death by the states in which they lived for doing bad stuff because "they felt something was wrong, they didn't know how to deal with it, and along came that convenience store, and they just slithered into murder during the commission of a robbery." Thrill-kill instead of hide-the-sausage, but it's all the same to the limbic system, I figure. Doesn't mean I see unfaithfulness on the level of a capital crime, but around here you call a spade a spade and most people do know right from wrong. You do, and your man does, and it looks like you both turned your backs on it, and you're both now looking for excuses.
> 
> I don't know what makes my wife do what she does, but I can say clearly that I did not do anything to warrant it. It doesn't matter because she's somehow put it all together in her own head such that she need not feel a twinge about it, she doesn't know what remorse is. I'm guessing you're not such a reptile as she is but you do need to examine your own self, your husband needs to examine himself, and fix yourselves, on your lonesomes, without rancor towards each other.


I won't be a "screw up" lol. I'll be ok, I have the ability to look beyond the behavior, and try to find reasons for the way things happen (my affair etc). I'll go to I/C, I may have the oprotunity to have free sessions.

And no, I'm not a "reptile", but I did mean and cruel things with the affair, and my husband didn't warrant that type of behavior, no one does. I went at him with a vengence that I've never had in my life (lies, cover ups etc.).


----------



## JustaJerk

Initially, it seemed like you two were doing pretty well- all things being considered- and were pretty much on the same page concerning R... even posturing on a united front concerning the litigation against OM.

Was this latest blow-up the "death blow," or were things NOT going that well after all?


----------



## working_together

JustaJerk said:


> Initially, it seemed like you two were doing pretty well- all things being considered- and were pretty much on the same page concerning R... even posturing on a united front concerning the litigation against OM.
> 
> Was this latest blow-up the "death blow," or were things NOT going that well after all?


I don't things were going very well, there would be times where I thought we were moving forward. I'm encouraging him to continue to court case, I support him in that, I will even go if he wants me to. He says "it's not worth it", I told him even if we lose, it's worth it, this guy has to learn his lesson and not rip others off.


----------



## skip76

FourtyPlus said:


> Why should she bother after the affair? Here's why: might be that she knows what was wrong with her marriage before the affair. Now that the affair is over, she's trying to fix what was wrong. How hard is that to understand?


very hard. all he will be thinking is why now? you knew before but still got up and cheated everyday, lied everyday, trickle truthed me, rewrote our marriage but now you want to fix it, ok, why now, because you got caught? how hard is that to understand, the person you trusted the most just did something that hurt you more than anything else ever has. i told working early on this was going to be hard if not impossible. it is just my oprinion that these consequences should have been thought about before having sex with someone else, but it always seems just too easy. no guilt or consequences until you are caught. i could never cheat but could picture the massive thoughts going through my mind before anything like this would happen, what a life changing event and it is done like it is no big story, unbelievable.


----------



## working_together

skip76 said:


> very hard. all he will be thinking is why now? you knew before but still got up and cheated everyday, lied everyday, trickle truthed me, rewrote our marriage but now you want to fix it, ok, why now, because you got caught? how hard is that to understand, the person you trusted the most just did something that hurt you more than anything else ever has. i told working early on this was going to be hard if not impossible. it is just my oprinion that these consequences should have been thought about before having sex with someone else, but it always seems just too easy. no guilt or consequences until you are caught. i could never cheat but could picture the massive thoughts going through my mind before anything like this would happen, what a life changing event and it is done like it is no big story, unbelievable.


You're completely right, I know what I did was wrong. I'm not going to deny that. Yeah, it's been hard for him to forgive me, I don't blame him one bit. I hurt him beyond belief, and I will still try to make amends even though we won't be together. I will not ask much from him, I just want him to continue to be a good dad. I told him take whatever you want from the house, just leave the basics for the kids. At least I can do that for him, and I said that with honesty.


----------



## FourtyPlus

skip76 said:


> very hard. all he will be thinking is why now? you knew before but still got up and cheated everyday, lied everyday, trickle truthed me, rewrote our marriage but now you want to fix it, ok, why now, because you got caught? how hard is that to understand, the person you trusted the most just did something that hurt you more than anything else ever has. i told working early on this was going to be hard if not impossible. it is just my oprinion that these consequences should have been thought about before having sex with someone else, but it always seems just too easy. no guilt or consequences until you are caught. i could never cheat but could picture the massive thoughts going through my mind before anything like this would happen, what a life changing event and it is done like it is no big story, unbelievable.


People, in general, tend to not think about consequences beforehand. That's why our prisons are over crowded, that's why lawyers drive BMW's, that's why we had to impeach Clinton, that's why we have adoption agencies and abortion clinics - PEOPLE TEND TO NOT THINK ABOUT CONSEQUENCES EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE WELL AWARE OF THEM.
This not not about the nature of the offense, it's soley about the principle.


----------



## morituri

Though we often bandy about that the unfaithful spouse should do the heavy lifting in reconciling, little do we speak of what the faithful spouse should do or don't if he/she is serious about reconciling. Verbal and emotional abuse by the faithful spouse towards the unfaithful spouse is counterproductive and sabotages any attempts at reconciliation and furthermore, it feeds the anger and bitterness he/she is experiencing not starve it. I think we need to put more emphasis on this to any newly betrayed spouse contemplating reconciliation.


----------



## Beowulf

Working,

You have no idea how sorry I am to hear that your reconciliation did not work out. I know you worked very hard to try to do the right things. You never shrank from the criticism your received and you took responsibility for your bad decisions.

I remember in a recent post you said that your husband was having difficulty accepting the new you because he missed the old meek and shy girl he married. Honestly I can sympathize with him a little there. After her affair my wife was no longer the laid back little flower that I married. I too had difficulty accepting the new person that was my wife. But as time went on I grew to appreciate her new qualities and realized that we would have a more balanced relationship going forward. I will admit that there are some days that I miss the my old wife but I wouldn't trade the new one in for the old one for all the tea in China.

It may be that your husband simply cannot accept the person you are now and have to be. I find that sad because I think if he could have opened his heart he would have found an incredible woman and a loving wife standing right in front of him. I really truly thought you both would make it.

I wish all good things for you going forward and I hope you continue to share your valuable insight and perspective with everyone here on TAM.


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> Working,
> 
> You have no idea how sorry I am to hear that your reconciliation did not work out. I know you worked very hard to try to do the right things. You never shrank from the criticism your received and you took responsibility for your bad decisions.
> 
> I remember in a recent post you said that your husband was having difficulty accepting the new you because he missed the old meek and shy girl he married. Honestly I can sympathize with him a little there. After her affair my wife was no longer the laid back little flower that I married. I too had difficulty accepting the new person that was my wife. But as time went on I grew to appreciate her new qualities and realized that we would have a more balanced relationship going forward. I will admit that there are some days that I miss the my old wife but I wouldn't trade the new one in for the old one for all the tea in China.
> 
> It may be that your husband simply cannot accept the person you are now and have to be. I find that sad because I think if he could have opened his heart he would have found an incredible woman and a loving wife standing right in front of him. I really truly thought you both would make it.
> 
> I wish all good things for you going forward and I hope you continue to share your valuable insight and perspective with everyone here on TAM.


Thanks,

I didn't change after the affair, I slowly became more outgoing in my 20's and 30's. 


Yeah, I'll stick around. I have a lot of questions regarding separation and boundaries.


----------



## working_together

You don't realize how bad a person looks until you haven't seen them for a few days. H. came over to see the kids, he had dinner with us, watched a movie with the kids, then left. I felt really guilty. He was visibly upset saying good bye to them. They didn't cry though, I've talked a lot with them (nothing against him). They had cried the other night, my little guy said the most sad things. My daughter hasn't said much in terms of feelings, she's afraid to I guess, and her self-esteem is probably affected, she's very aware of a lot of things. I kept reminding her that her mommy and daddy will be happier, and therefore happier with her and her brother. I think they feel better knowing he will be living in the same building he was before. They enjoyed themselves there, had a few friends etc. 

He brought up MC appointment also, my heart sank, what did he tell him. Apparently, he refused the family history part, said "what's the point"..true. He then said his own therapist said he needed to basically take a stand. I was silent, I knew what was coming. He threatened to take the therapist to some board, and have his notes taken away. He confronted him about telling me I wasn't "safe", I told him that's not what he said " it was emotionally safe".. he didn't hear that part. The therapist said to him "that's your perception" when he denied any abuse. H. then said to him "if she was so afraid, why didn't she say so". Obviously, I was not going to engage in any arguments with kids nearby, I'm done with that now, but it was so hard not defend myself when it was so clear he is in denial. It was all about blaming me. He thinks that abuse is just about hitting.

So he's giving me the last 3 sessions since it's covered under his EAP program at work. Originally, he told me to find my own therapist. So I'll make an appointment for next week.

All in all I feel ok, I find it hard sometimes that he isn't around, but I also think of how quiet it is. I thought I would be lonely, but I'm not, just at peace that it's over. No more fights, yelling etc.

He told me about his female work friend who he may start dating....ouch, they've known each other for a while professionally, shared some clients. I started to feel sick about it, felt like I couldn't catch my breath, kind of what he felt about my affair, but nothing in comparision. Then I just realized that he needs that now in order to get over me, to move on. I just asked that when he's here to turn off his phone, I don't want to hear the beep of texts, they used to text about clients. This all came up when he asked if I wanted a job at her place of employment (he's fine with me working now though). I said NO, "are you kidding". He's like "why not". I shut my mouth. Maybe he's seeking a bit of revenge, maybe it's just karma.


The Good Life


----------



## that_girl

Make sure you talk with the kids...my 12 year old said some pretty heart breaking things that we'll never forget. She's so stoic, it was a shock to hear these things come out but they did and we talked to her about them.

Kids internalize things so differently than how they are...best to talk and talk so they get the real reality, rather than their made-up one.

I'm sorry your reconciliation didn't work out. Although, I'm not one to say never. You honestly do not know how things will turn out. Just have to roll with the tide at the moment. It sucks, but...it's something you can't control. Flow and be real. It's all you can do.


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> I am shocked by your response.
> Badblood, maybe because you are going through a divorce after your wife's infidelity, you are taking it a little too personal. Back off a little and think about it. We can only tell her what she needs to do. Not everyone can do it.
> 
> There are more issues than we can see here. Her version, her husband's version and the forum member's version(which is a heavily censored version due to the members heavily attacking WS.) Not every BS can handle the infidelity properly. He might be abusing the WS as a coping mecahnism. Should she bear that? Some can, some cannot. That is a lose lose scenario for both the parties. Whether working's BS is abusing her or not, do you agree that this forum is not suitable for a WS to grieve/vent about the situation if the BS is abusing her?
> 
> I don't think the issues are black and white. I don't think she is lying or dishonest to us. It is skewed, definitely. Happens in a POV. At the worst, she is someone that too weak and not strong enough to handle rigors of R. Someone who is too selfish to make the necessary personal sacrifices for R. At the best, the husband turned into a abuser, while trying to cope his own demons. I think the situation is somewhere in the middle. She is unable to take the stress of an R put on by her husband who cannot forgive her. If he indeed is calling her a wh0re/b!tch infront of her children repeatedly, that is not OK. She mentioned the fight between her son and her husband before.(don't remember). So I don't think she is lying about that either. She even mentioned the children acting up because of the fights.
> 
> Only in recent posts did I find the tones more accusatory. I think it is the pent up feeling/resentment she was feeling all this time. She is in a bit of anger this past week(they broke up twice) and letting it all out instead of keeping it to herself like she did these past few weeks. But I think the marriage counselor suddenly opening her eyes to the abuse in her marriage is a bit over the top. That is, she is very angry at her husband right now and he is telling her exactly what she wants to hear right now. She wants him to be at fault if this indeed does not work out(she did put some work in the past couple of months). I think she will be more rational in a week or two when the anger subsides.
> Maybe separation is the best thing for the time being


I am back only to caution those posters who believe all that Working has said, is gospel. She has lied to all of us by omission. Her version of events are markedly different from her husband's, and should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism. In the beginning of this story , I had the highest hopes that Working and her husband could overcome the odds and be a success story, but after re-reading her posts, and responses to OUR advice, I now know that she isn't interested in doing anything to ease her husband's pain, but IS interested in bolstering her inflated opinion of herself. She has never and will never be a true remorseful WS, but will always try to evade, by bringing up this whole "emotional abuse" charade. Funny she didn't say anything about it much earlier, isn't it? Working, I would love to have been of help to you, and truly hope that you can someday see beyond your own desires and opinions. Good Luck to you. Remember, TAM posters.......be wary of a WS'S version of a story, as the other shoe usually hasn't dropped yet.


----------



## morituri

Badblood you are entitled to your opinion but I beg to differ with your assessment of working's lack of remorse. The fact that time and again she has accepted 100% responsibility for her affair, taken the husband's lashing out without defending herself, and has stuck around this forum and taken every harsh, but many times spot on comments without one time getting defensive and lashing out at another member, speaks volumes to me.

One of the reasons why I chose not to reconcile with my ex-wife,was because I knew that there was more than a good chance that I could become just like working's husband, an angry and bitter man. For me it was better to divorce and forgive than to reconcile and never forgive. Any BS who is serious about reconciling with his WS should fight the urge to lash out against his/her WS.

So call me what you will, foolish, naive, stupid, gullible, but I still working has tried her best to make amends to her husband


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Badblood you are entitled to your opinion but I beg to differ with your assessment of working's lack of remorse. The fact that time and again she has accepted 100% responsibility for her affair, taken the husband's lashing out without defending herself, and has stuck around this forum and taken every harsh, but many times spot on comments without one time getting defensive and lashing out at another member, speaks volumes to me.
> 
> One of the reasons why I chose not to reconcile with my ex-wife,was because I knew that there was more than a good chance that I could become just like working's husband, an angry and bitter man. For me it was better to divorce and forgive than to reconcile and never forgive. Any BS who is serious about reconciling with his WS should fight the urge to lash out against his/her WS.
> 
> So call me what you will, foolish, naive, stupid, gullible, but I still working has tried her best to make amends to her husband


Mori, I would not presume to call you or anyone else, anything of the sort. I simply wonder how much of her story is fact and how much is invention. She never mentioned abuse before (other than justifiable anger on her husband's part) so all of a sudden she is a good submissive WS, with a boorish , over-bearing husband? It does not ring true to me. I would like, very much, to hear her husband's side, before we confer sainthood on Working. Read a description of a passive-aggressive personality, and it fits her to a "T". The cheating was "all her fault", BUT.........


----------



## Badblood

Sorry if I'm thread-jacking.


----------



## working_together

that_girl said:


> Make sure you talk with the kids...my 12 year old said some pretty heart breaking things that we'll never forget. She's so stoic, it was a shock to hear these things come out but they did and we talked to her about them.
> 
> Kids internalize things so differently than how they are...best to talk and talk so they get the real reality, rather than their made-up one.
> 
> I'm sorry your reconciliation didn't work out. Although, I'm not one to say never. You honestly do not know how things will turn out. Just have to roll with the tide at the moment. It sucks, but...it's something you can't control. Flow and be real. It's all you can do.


Thanks, I know I have to keep talking to her, asking her how she feels. Her teacher has said that she has made a lot of improvements in the last little while, so I felt better about that. It's really tough.


----------



## Almostrecovered

have you considered your affair was an "exit affair"?


----------



## morituri

Almostrecovered said:


> have you considered your affair was an "exit affair"?


Interesting question. I'd like to see her answer as well.


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Interesting question. I'd like to see her answer as well.


Good point, almostrecovered. I would like to see her answer, as well. Maybe, perhaps, she could also answer some of our other questions? She is long on excuses but very short on concrete answers. What about her pride issue? What about the sexual issue? What did she ever do to show her husband that he was her man, instead of "plan B"? Why did she mention EA at this late stage? In the beginning, she was very voluminous about how much her husband supported her endeavors, and now he is an abusive prick? I. for one , would like her to come here and give us straight-forward answers, but it's probably not going to happen. What we will get is evasions, and fiction.


----------



## Badblood

Don't take my word for it, re-read her posts, and you will notice the change from "supposedly", remorseful WS, to blame-shifting deciever.


----------



## morituri

Jarhead Badblood, Semper Scrotus, Semper Gumby.


----------



## Almostrecovered

How you gonna read her answer if you have her on ignore?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

I saw how other posters were saying I was way off base, and came back to defend my position. It irks me that she is playing the posters for fools.


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Jarhead Badblood, Semper Scrotus, Semper Gumby.


Eff you< Mori


----------



## morituri

Badblood, I don't think of working as the next Mother Teresa but neither do I believe that she is the incarnation of Irma Grese "The b!tch of Belsen".


----------



## [email protected]

Well, the good news is you can get out there again and start dating again and seeing other guys!


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Good point, almostrecovered. I would like to see her answer, as well. Maybe, perhaps, she could also answer some of our other questions? She is long on excuses but very short on concrete answers. What about her pride issue? What about the sexual issue? What did she ever do to show her husband that he was her man, instead of "plan B"? Why did she mention EA at this late stage? In the beginning, she was very voluminous about how much her husband supported her endeavors, and now he is an abusive prick? I. for one , would like her to come here and give us straight-forward answers, but it's probably not going to happen. What we will get is evasions, and fiction.


Where did I ever say i was sexually abused????? When my parents separated my father took physcial custody (no arrangement was made)from my mother, and refused to give me back to her for 9 months. I was 9 hours away, and did not see my mother. During this time my sister was born, I only met her when she was about 6 months old. I didn't feel like going into the whole story about my parents custody issues.

Seriously, am I on the stand here? if you don't believe me, why are you reading my posts, are you trying to convince others? Listen, people will come up with their own conclusions, no need to do it for them. 

Why didn't I mention that my H. was verbally/emotionally abusive long before my affair? hmmmm, let me think about that, I'm thinking it's because people wouldn't believe me, or they would think I was blame shifting etc. During the last year, obviously it was out of control, so I noticed a lot of things, before that it was more subtle. I think I've given enough examples of my 25 relationship to give the idea that something was very wrong with his behavior. Yeah, I got reactive sometimes, got fed up, did some yelling of my own. I wasn't the best wife by all means, but did I deserve his treatment? Yeah, I couldn't take his snoring, he slept on the couch a lot. But when we R. I told him I would leave the room and sleep on the couch. He was livid every time I left the room, he expected me to sleep with the snoring, he did not want to wear the c-pap machine (and I don't blame him really). He had a lot of resentment towards me for having to sleep on the couch a lot, but it didn't interfere with the intimacy so I thought it wasn't as bad. I tried to sleep in the same bed, put ear plugs in, then as a last resort went to the sofa. I didn't keep a clean enough house for him (his mother was a neat freak, she even ironed face cloths). I'm neat, but I like a lived in house as well. He would be on my ass all the time about dishes, kids toys around, or laundry not put away. The kids love making forts in the living-room with blankets and sofa cusions, he hated this, and I'd argue and say "let them have fun, we'll clean it up later", sometimes he'd let it go, other times he'd rage about it. We were starting to teach them to pick up on their own, not easy though. My thing was do some tidying during the day, and most of it at night when kids were sleeping. He didn't agree with that, and basically ran after them to pick up. He'd sweep the floor about 3-4 times a day, it drove me crazy. I vaccumed every day because he hated things sticking to his feet. He'd come home after work and sweep after I already vaccumed during the day. All I ever said was "I already cleaned the floors" He always had clothes to wear unless I was sick. It's not like he was neglected or lived in filth. It felt like I would never measure up to his expectations. It was very frustrating for both of us, I tried to meet him in the middle at times, other times I said to hell with it, it doesn't make a difference. It's like we were complete opposites in every way.

The pride issue? I'm not 100 percent sure, I think I knew that my husband would never forgive me, and never let go of the anger, hate he had towards me for the affair. It would let up here and there, and then return. The other aspect was that I knew my marriage was done years ago, I could never make him happy, and we both had a lot of resentments. So yeah, exit affair sounds about right. I also had this fantasy that upon R our marriage would change and become better. Even without the affair issue, there were so many other issues between us. I just kept thinking things would change, it got to the point where my kids were hearing so many things, they didn't necessariy understand all of it, but I'm sure my daughter understood more than she lets on, she does not easily talk about emotions, but expresses frustration quite often. My husband would say she is just moody, but there's more to it I realize. I blame my self for a lot, I feel I have ruined my daughter, all because of my wishful thinking and my inability to just end the marriage. I live with that. 

I think that after a few weeks of yelling during the beginning of R. we should have taken a break. He still had his apartment. He told me once he regretted that as well.

Yes, my husband was a good man in many ways, he was always generous, and would give the shirt off his back to anyone. Supportive? not so much, did you not read where he laughed at my B's in University? that really stung for me, coming home with his exams and papers throwing it my face and saying "what did you get on that paper'? (we took the same program) He'd say "I got an A, and hardly worked for it". That went on for three years, I said not one word. It made me feel stupid ya know? But he had this need to feel good about himself, and would constantly put me down to bring himself up. I praised him quite often, told him what a great worker he was, told him he was a great father (except for older son), I told him he changed a lot for the two younger children, became more involved in parenting etc. I neglected to tell him enough that he was sexy or attractive ,etc. I realize now he needed to hear that. I told him when he lost weight how good he looked, but he didn't believe me, he'd say he felt fat still. He was never fat, a bit of a stomach maybe. I bugged him sometimes when he'd complain, I'd say to him that he's eating too much chocolate. I thought it was constructive, but he took it as critisism, why complain then. 

What were the other questions I never answered? I feel like everyone knows my life, I've had to reveal everything just so it doesn't look like I'm lying. 

I came to this forum with the intension of having BS understand what the WS is all about, I thought maybe I could help other BS understand what crazy stuff goes on with us. I wanted people to understand that we're not all run arounds, party girls, we didn't all have a promiscious youth. I wanted to clear the name of some of the good people that made a horrible choice in their life, and destroyed their spouse.

And btw Bad, you've said a lot of mean things to me, and I have never responded to any of them, I don't think you have ever been fair. We can agree to disagree, but please refrain from berating me, and making me look like a liar.


----------



## working_together

[email protected] said:


> Well, the good news is you can get out there again and start dating again and seeing other guys!


I'm not sure what that comment means?


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> Badblood, I don't think of working as the next Mother Teresa but neither do I believe that she is the incarnation of Irma Grese "The b!tch of Belsen".


Lol


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> I saw how other posters were saying I was way off base, and came back to defend my position. It irks me that she is playing the posters for fools.


Why do you even care what people think of your postings?


----------



## working_together

Almostrecovered said:


> How you gonna read her answer if you have her on ignore?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you kidding me??? I put in a long post for nothing....


----------



## lascarx

working_together said:


> I came to this forum with the intension of having BS understand what the WS is all about, I thought maybe I could help other BS understand what crazy stuff goes on with us. I wanted people to understand that we're not all run arounds, party girls, we didn't all have a promiscious youth. I wanted to clear the name of some of the good people that made a horrible choice in their life, and destroyed their spouse.


That has to be the strangest thing I've read to date. You've got enough problems of your own to fill a dumptruck, and now you're saying that all you really want is to be Joan of Arc for the cheaters of the world? You need to get a grip.


----------



## working_together

lascarx said:


> That has to be the strangest thing I've read to date. You've got enough problems of your own to fill a dumptruck, and now you're saying that all you really want is to be Joan of Arc for the cheaters of the world? You need to get a grip.


Sorry I should have said I came here first for help in terms of my affair, and what I could do for my marriage to make up for it, and with that I hoped to have people understand WS's a little more, and not portray them as evil witches.

I always have to be soooo clear. sheesh


----------



## lascarx

working_together said:


> Sorry I should have said I came here first for help in terms of my affair, and what I could do for my marriage to make up for it, and with that I hoped to have people understand WS's a little more, and not portray them as evil witches.
> 
> I always have to be soooo clear. sheesh


Each WS, like each person the world over, is different. There's no point in lumping them together and saying that they as a group deserve more leniency than they usually get. Some do, and some deserve to have an even bigger book thrown at them. I think most people are perceptive enough to tell the difference.


----------



## morituri

working_together said:


> Are you kidding me??? I put in a long post for nothing....


My name is 'nothing', happy to meet you.


----------



## warlock07

What the hell is going on here


----------



## working_together

lascarx said:


> Each WS, like each person the world over, is different. There's no point in lumping them together and saying that they as a group deserve more leniency than they usually get. Some do, and some deserve to have an even bigger book thrown at them. I think most people are perceptive enough to tell the difference.


Maybe I'm just sensitive about it then. I just get the sense that because of a few beh.'s of cheaters, other negative beh.'s are immediately assigned to them. 

Reminds me of when I was in high school, girls would get into the most wicked hair pulling fights (of course I'd watch), and it was all over one word "sl*t". No one wants a bad rep.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> What the hell is going on here


What's with the tongues??? ewwww

I don't like dogs much, slobber, slobber, and stink like heck.


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> My name is 'nothing', happy to meet you.


hardy har har...


----------



## morituri

working_together said:


> hardy har har...


Sheeesh! some people.


----------



## warlock07

working_together said:


> What's with the tongues??? ewwww
> 
> I don't like dogs much, slobber, slobber, and stink like heck.


My dog will kick your hamster's ass


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> My dog will kick your hamster's ass


Excuse me, but they're guinea pigs.....and you have no idea what one of my cats did to my neighbour's pit bull, let's just say there was some blood involved. lol


----------



## morituri

working_together said:


> Excuse me, but they're guinea pigs.....and you have no idea what one of my cats did to my neighbour's pit bull, let's just say there was some blood involved. lol


Care to give us the gory details?


----------



## warlock07

working_together said:


> Excuse me, but they're guinea pigs.....and you have no idea what one of my cats did to my neighbour's pit bull, let's just say there was some blood involved. lol


Your cat's blood? :rofl:

Ok, I'll stop


But have you heard this? What do you call a dog that is lazy and pretty much useless?

Ans: A cat


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Badblood, I don't think of working as the next Mother Teresa but neither do I believe that she is the incarnation of Irma Grese "The b!tch of Belsen".


I don't think so either, but she isn't exactly Truthful Tess either. If she would come clean, I wouldn't be so irritated.


----------



## Badblood

Seriously? Seriously, Working? I ask you about your pride issues and you answer with a litany of your husband's supposed faults. Snoring? House-keeping? Trying to discipline his kids (they are his as well as yours, you know) which he has a perfect right to do. You accuse him of nit-picking, well look at this last post of yours from the perspective of a bystander. YOU are the one nit-picking. And no, you are not telling the truth, you are leaving out some pretty huge facts that if the posters knew, they wouldn't be nearly as supportive. Does he leave the seat up? Not put the cap back on the toothpaste? He obviously is horribly abusive and deserves it when a splendid woman like yourself, f**ks another guy, and choose him over your terrible husband. It amazes me that your poor suffering husband even tried to R.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> Where did I ever say i was sexually abused????? When my parents separated my father took physcial custody (no arrangement was made)from my mother, and refused to give me back to her for 9 months. I was 9 hours away, and did not see my mother. During this time my sister was born, I only met her when she was about 6 months old. I didn't feel like going into the whole story about my parents custody issues.
> 
> Seriously, am I on the stand here? if you don't believe me, why are you reading my posts, are you trying to convince others? Listen, people will come up with their own conclusions, no need to do it for them.
> 
> Why didn't I mention that my H. was verbally/emotionally abusive long before my affair? hmmmm, let me think about that, I'm thinking it's because people wouldn't believe me, or they would think I was blame shifting etc. During the last year, obviously it was out of control, so I noticed a lot of things, before that it was more subtle. I think I've given enough examples of my 25 relationship to give the idea that something was very wrong with his behavior. Yeah, I got reactive sometimes, got fed up, did some yelling of my own. I wasn't the best wife by all means, but did I deserve his treatment? Yeah, I couldn't take his snoring, he slept on the couch a lot. But when we R. I told him I would leave the room and sleep on the couch. He was livid every time I left the room, he expected me to sleep with the snoring, he did not want to wear the c-pap machine (and I don't blame him really). He had a lot of resentment towards me for having to sleep on the couch a lot, but it didn't interfere with the intimacy so I thought it wasn't as bad. I tried to sleep in the same bed, put ear plugs in, then as a last resort went to the sofa. I didn't keep a clean enough house for him (his mother was a neat freak, she even ironed face cloths). I'm neat, but I like a lived in house as well. He would be on my ass all the time about dishes, kids toys around, or laundry not put away. The kids love making forts in the living-room with blankets and sofa cusions, he hated this, and I'd argue and say "let them have fun, we'll clean it up later", sometimes he'd let it go, other times he'd rage about it. We were starting to teach them to pick up on their own, not easy though. My thing was do some tidying during the day, and most of it at night when kids were sleeping. He didn't agree with that, and basically ran after them to pick up. He'd sweep the floor about 3-4 times a day, it drove me crazy. I vaccumed every day because he hated things sticking to his feet. He'd come home after work and sweep after I already vaccumed during the day. All I ever said was "I already cleaned the floors" He always had clothes to wear unless I was sick. It's not like he was neglected or lived in filth. It felt like I would never measure up to his expectations. It was very frustrating for both of us, I tried to meet him in the middle at times, other times I said to hell with it, it doesn't make a difference. It's like we were complete opposites in every way.
> 
> The pride issue? I'm not 100 percent sure, I think I knew that my husband would never forgive me, and never let go of the anger, hate he had towards me for the affair. It would let up here and there, and then return. The other aspect was that I knew my marriage was done years ago, I could never make him happy, and we both had a lot of resentments. So yeah, exit affair sounds about right. I also had this fantasy that upon R our marriage would change and become better. Even without the affair issue, there were so many other issues between us. I just kept thinking things would change, it got to the point where my kids were hearing so many things, they didn't necessariy understand all of it, but I'm sure my daughter understood more than she lets on, she does not easily talk about emotions, but expresses frustration quite often. My husband would say she is just moody, but there's more to it I realize. I blame my self for a lot, I feel I have ruined my daughter, all because of my wishful thinking and my inability to just end the marriage. I live with that.
> 
> I think that after a few weeks of yelling during the beginning of R. we should have taken a break. He still had his apartment. He told me once he regretted that as well.
> 
> Yes, my husband was a good man in many ways, he was always generous, and would give the shirt off his back to anyone. Supportive? not so much, did you not read where he laughed at my B's in University? that really stung for me, coming home with his exams and papers throwing it my face and saying "what did you get on that paper'? (we took the same program) He'd say "I got an A, and hardly worked for it". That went on for three years, I said not one word. It made me feel stupid ya know? But he had this need to feel good about himself, and would constantly put me down to bring himself up. I praised him quite often, told him what a great worker he was, told him he was a great father (except for older son), I told him he changed a lot for the two younger children, became more involved in parenting etc. I neglected to tell him enough that he was sexy or attractive ,etc. I realize now he needed to hear that. I told him when he lost weight how good he looked, but he didn't believe me, he'd say he felt fat still. He was never fat, a bit of a stomach maybe. I bugged him sometimes when he'd complain, I'd say to him that he's eating too much chocolate. I thought it was constructive, but he took it as critisism, why complain then.
> 
> What were the other questions I never answered? I feel like everyone knows my life, I've had to reveal everything just so it doesn't look like I'm lying.
> 
> I came to this forum with the intension of having BS understand what the WS is all about, I thought maybe I could help other BS understand what crazy stuff goes on with us. I wanted people to understand that we're not all run arounds, party girls, we didn't all have a promiscious youth. I wanted to clear the name of some of the good people that made a horrible choice in their life, and destroyed their spouse.
> 
> And btw Bad, you've said a lot of mean things to me, and I have never responded to any of them, I don't think you have ever been fair. We can agree to disagree, but please refrain from berating me, and making me look like a liar.


I asked about the sex issue, I never said that you were sexually abused. Re-read my post. I have never been "mean", to you, in any way. When you lie, I call it. When you are passive-aggressive, I call it. When you are fabricating a story, I call it. Don't do those things, and I won't call them.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> Why do you even care what people think of your postings?


I prefer to be thought harsh, than inaccurate.


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> Where did I ever say i was sexually abused????? When my parents separated my father took physcial custody (no arrangement was made)from my mother, and refused to give me back to her for 9 months. I was 9 hours away, and did not see my mother. During this time my sister was born, I only met her when she was about 6 months old. I didn't feel like going into the whole story about my parents custody issues.
> 
> Seriously, am I on the stand here? if you don't believe me, why are you reading my posts, are you trying to convince others? Listen, people will come up with their own conclusions, no need to do it for them.
> 
> Why didn't I mention that my H. was verbally/emotionally abusive long before my affair? hmmmm, let me think about that, I'm thinking it's because people wouldn't believe me, or they would think I was blame shifting etc. During the last year, obviously it was out of control, so I noticed a lot of things, before that it was more subtle. I think I've given enough examples of my 25 relationship to give the idea that something was very wrong with his behavior. Yeah, I got reactive sometimes, got fed up, did some yelling of my own. I wasn't the best wife by all means, but did I deserve his treatment? Yeah, I couldn't take his snoring, he slept on the couch a lot. But when we R. I told him I would leave the room and sleep on the couch. He was livid every time I left the room, he expected me to sleep with the snoring, he did not want to wear the c-pap machine (and I don't blame him really). He had a lot of resentment towards me for having to sleep on the couch a lot, but it didn't interfere with the intimacy so I thought it wasn't as bad. I tried to sleep in the same bed, put ear plugs in, then as a last resort went to the sofa. I didn't keep a clean enough house for him (his mother was a neat freak, she even ironed face cloths). I'm neat, but I like a lived in house as well. He would be on my ass all the time about dishes, kids toys around, or laundry not put away. The kids love making forts in the living-room with blankets and sofa cusions, he hated this, and I'd argue and say "let them have fun, we'll clean it up later", sometimes he'd let it go, other times he'd rage about it. We were starting to teach them to pick up on their own, not easy though. My thing was do some tidying during the day, and most of it at night when kids were sleeping. He didn't agree with that, and basically ran after them to pick up. He'd sweep the floor about 3-4 times a day, it drove me crazy. I vaccumed every day because he hated things sticking to his feet. He'd come home after work and sweep after I already vaccumed during the day. All I ever said was "I already cleaned the floors" He always had clothes to wear unless I was sick. It's not like he was neglected or lived in filth. It felt like I would never measure up to his expectations. It was very frustrating for both of us, I tried to meet him in the middle at times, other times I said to hell with it, it doesn't make a difference. It's like we were complete opposites in every way.
> 
> The pride issue? I'm not 100 percent sure, I think I knew that my husband would never forgive me, and never let go of the anger, hate he had towards me for the affair. It would let up here and there, and then return. The other aspect was that I knew my marriage was done years ago, I could never make him happy, and we both had a lot of resentments. So yeah, exit affair sounds about right. I also had this fantasy that upon R our marriage would change and become better. Even without the affair issue, there were so many other issues between us. I just kept thinking things would change, it got to the point where my kids were hearing so many things, they didn't necessariy understand all of it, but I'm sure my daughter understood more than she lets on, she does not easily talk about emotions, but expresses frustration quite often. My husband would say she is just moody, but there's more to it I realize. I blame my self for a lot, I feel I have ruined my daughter, all because of my wishful thinking and my inability to just end the marriage. I live with that.
> 
> I think that after a few weeks of yelling during the beginning of R. we should have taken a break. He still had his apartment. He told me once he regretted that as well.
> 
> Yes, my husband was a good man in many ways, he was always generous, and would give the shirt off his back to anyone. Supportive? not so much, did you not read where he laughed at my B's in University? that really stung for me, coming home with his exams and papers throwing it my face and saying "what did you get on that paper'? (we took the same program) He'd say "I got an A, and hardly worked for it". That went on for three years, I said not one word. It made me feel stupid ya know? But he had this need to feel good about himself, and would constantly put me down to bring himself up. I praised him quite often, told him what a great worker he was, told him he was a great father (except for older son), I told him he changed a lot for the two younger children, became more involved in parenting etc. I neglected to tell him enough that he was sexy or attractive ,etc. I realize now he needed to hear that. I told him when he lost weight how good he looked, but he didn't believe me, he'd say he felt fat still. He was never fat, a bit of a stomach maybe. I bugged him sometimes when he'd complain, I'd say to him that he's eating too much chocolate. I thought it was constructive, but he took it as critisism, why complain then.
> 
> What were the other questions I never answered? I feel like everyone knows my life, I've had to reveal everything just so it doesn't look like I'm lying.
> 
> I came to this forum with the intension of having BS understand what the WS is all about, I thought maybe I could help other BS understand what crazy stuff goes on with us. I wanted people to understand that we're not all run arounds, party girls, we didn't all have a promiscious youth. I wanted to clear the name of some of the good people that made a horrible choice in their life, and destroyed their spouse.
> 
> And btw Bad, you've said a lot of mean things to me, and I have never responded to any of them, I don't think you have ever been fair. We can agree to disagree, but please refrain from berating me, and making me look like a liar.



Working,

You know I have never held back in my comments and I won't do so now. You also should realize by now that everything I say is meant to be constructive so please take my post as such.

A lot of what you describe here is covered in "His Needs, Her Needs", "Love Busters" and a book only I seem to recommend on here called "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work". I snored badly for years. I went to many different doctors for many years until it was finally cured. My wife never left our bed nor did she even hint that I should. If one of your husband's primary needs was Domestic Support and you weren't fulfilling that need it's not surprising there was conflict. If he was engaging in Disrespectful Judgments that is a love buster that can certainly put a strain on a marriage. Unfortunately all I see here are solvable issues that unfortunately did not get addressed until you had your exit affair. Yes, that's what I feel you did even if you aren't aware of it consciously. While these things do not make a good marriage I do not consider them emotional abuse. What I did to my wife WAS emotional abuse and yet we managed to work beyond it and are very very happy today.

As for the pride issues...I think there is a lot of that present. I think it's reinforced with resentment from the unresolved issues in your marriage pre-affair but I think you are very prideful. Pride is not necessarily an inherently bad quality but it is if it is an impediment to a fulfilling and happy life. You and your husband loved each other at one time. You know there were good and happy times during your marriage. Personally I think that right now you are enjoying the respite that comes with not having to work on your marriage and walk around on eggshells. Unfortunately those things come with the territory when you try to reconcile after an affair. I still think you are an intelligent strong woman and you will get through this period in your life. But the peace you are now experiencing will, in my opinion, give way to sadness and loneliness and I think you and your husband are going to one day look back and realize what you have both lost due to stubbornness and pride. I believe that you and he are going to be in the 80% that regret their divorce and wish they had chosen another path.


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## [email protected]

i doubt the marriage is over, its more of a respite, he will date and have a few relationships and then you guys will be together. This is for the best, there needs to be balance. I can assure u this though, if you go out with anyone else in the mean time then its over, just be patient, let him see and experience whats out there and then in an year or two you can work on reconciliation.


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## morituri

Badblood, while it is true that we are only privy to what happened from working's POV, the fact is that many betrayed spouses do become emotionally abusive. My ex-wife and I knew a married couple, the husband had an affair, he ended it and chose to reconcile with his wife. Unfortunately, the wife never forgave her husband and took great pains to bring up the affair in front of others years after it ended. I told my ex-wife that if she ever cheated on me that I would divorce her rather than reconcile and become like that woman, angry and bitter - who knew how prophetic those words would turn out to be years later. It is unrealistic to expect that working's heavy lifting efforts can single-handedly save and rebuild the marriage IF her husband only sabotages them with his behavior.

Working, while I loath separations for being mostly a farce and believe they are a joke as far as marital reconciliation is concerned, in your situation it may be what is needed in order for the two of you to heal. Granted that a divorce is most likely but that is secondary to the imperative of your and your husband's emotional/mental health. I hope the two of you accomplish this for not just your sakes for that of your children's.


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## Badblood

In the end.......the love you take is equal to the love you make......


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## Badblood

Just thought I'd throw in a little schmaltz.


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## jnj express

Hey working---let me ask you something----prior to your straying, from what I am reading, and I have not read everything completely, but it sounds like your mge., had some of the elements of a trainwreck. Your H, would give the shirt off his back to others, but you got ridiculed for many things that he should have instead given you support on.----

He was to some extent controlling, such as the hugging your friend 1st issue

Obviously the 2 of you were just not making it very well, given all that I have read here.

There seem to be lots of problems------that is what happens in mge., maybe your mge., had more problems than others, but the 2 of you stayed

You stated you argued often, and you yourself, were able to learn to handle your end in the arguments---what I wanna know is, did you ever get up in his face, and threaten him with ending the mge., because of his treatment of you

I am sure some of your staying power was due to the children

Your children whether you wanna believe it or not, knew what was going on long ago, and whould have been better off long ago living in happy split homes.

OK so you strayed, yet now you try to make it up and R., the mge., and now you are again taking crap.

Why is this mge., still in existence, don't you think this all should have come to an end years ago.----Why were you so afraid to end a bad mge.---Instead you strayed, and have hurt yourself even more.

I am sure the scum that helped you stray, played on your weakness, but why didn't you just say to yourself, before I really hurt my kids, by straying, why don't I just end this farce of a mge.


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## morituri

Badblood said:


> In the end.......the love you take is equal to the love you make......


Badblood, I always suspected you were the fifth Beatle. Then again I still believe Paul M died and was replaced by.....


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## Badblood

morituri said:


> Badblood, I always suspected you were the fifth Beatle. Then again I still believe Paul M died and was replaced by.....


I'm the black Beatle that nobody talks about.


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## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> I believe that you and he are going to be in the 80% that regret their divorce and wish they had chosen another path.


Now that 80% gets thrown around a lot. I've got my doubts.

When you walk away from something bad and you end up disappointed that things didn't get better, it doesn't mean you should have stayed where you were. It can also mean you didn't make realistic expectations of life and ended up chasing rainbows. I think that's what these people who ended up regretting their decisions ended up doing after their divorces, chasing rainbows. If they had had realistic expectations of what better lives could have been, they could have set their caps in that direction and probably done just fine. 

Some people will interpret this as a further argument to stay in a bad marriage, I say it means you still get out but don't expect it to be like winning the lottery.


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## Struggling4ever

cheatinghubby said:


> And that's the price we pay for spreading our legs or sticking our things into places they don't belong.
> 
> We never know if one day, even after a supposedly good and maybe even great effort at R, if our spouses will just say screw this I'm out.
> 
> Remember, if your husband cheated would you have been so forgiving. The sad fact is that cheaters seem to think they're entitled to being taken back because we screwed up.
> 
> But if they were to cheat on us, F this, boot to the ass and keep your cheating @ss moving on down the damn road.
> 
> All we can do is work hard to make sure we don't add any other excuse for them to kick us out the door one day. But they have the right to do it anytime they want.
> 
> The one post that i keep going back to is struggling4ever..
> 
> 11 DAMN years he put up the face of happiness of his wife being back. 11 years he thought he was doing the right thing. 11 years, he finally had the perfect wife he wanted.
> 
> But guess what, he's thinking it was probably 11 years of life he wasted on a cheater, 11 years of kicking his nuts over and over and over seeing her in front of him. 11 years of smiling when he wanted to throw himself off a cliff and get rid of the pain that will never go away because he sees his cheating wife 24/7 and it's always a trigger.
> 
> We are the trigger!!! We will always be the trigger!!! There is nothing else that causes it!!!!
> 
> Could you stand to look at his face knowing he's buried his head between another woman's leg or knowing that another one sucked him dry and drank all his man juice? Sorry to be blunt but we signed up for this when we cheated.
> 
> And as I've stated, the best we can do is work hard to make sure we don't add any other excuse for them to finally say get out.


Wow! I actually deleted my post because my wife asked if I could tell her the name of the forum I was on because it opened my eyes to a lot of things and she thought maybe she could get some help here too. She came on here and there were some pretty vicious attacks on her and I decided to remove it. Sure I'm hurting and the triggers have been there for all 11 years (and I now know they will always be there). I didn't however know all of the hurt and anger that would come flowing out of me as a result of finally facing all this! 

Now that I opened up and found this forum and figured out what was really going on in my messed up head over triggers and learning that we "rugswept", all of the hurt and anger that I should have felt years ago came flowing out! I have come to this thread too many times as it relates so much to my situation, but I finally read the entire thread start to finish between yesterday and today. This truly saddens me but I do believe sometimes it's just too hard and ending it might be best. 

I have the same anger that her husband seems to have. We never brought up the affair for all these years...it was just buried and my wife somehow moved on but although we've had a lot of great times, the "triggers" were always there. I don't think deep inside I can completely let my guard down. I know she loves me and I believe with all my heart that she would not do this again, but at the time of her affair, I had no clue. She was sleeping with the guy who I thought was my best friend and we were doing things together with my family, and as couples with him and his girlfriend all the time.... I knew she was unhappy at times, but I never saw the affair coming? So now, no matter how ok I think things are, I can't be sure because I thought we were ok then? (if that makes sense?)

I am overall very easy going and a peacemaker, but when it comes to my wife although I am not mean or verbally abusive, I do snap at her, and don't have the patience that a man should have with his wife. Since finally dealing with this I now have anger and I wish I would have released it all years ago. So working_together, the anger may go away in time, but I'm not sure the triggers will ever go away... not completely. I became an expert at just saying to myself, that was the past, she is not the same person, and I choose to move forward. I was on a mission to prove to everyone that we were ok. 

So although I'd like to see you work things out, judging from your story...maybe you were never completely happy or fullfilled in the first place? I always tell my wife you can't control how you feel, only how you react to those feelings. I also say you can't make someone love you, either they do or they don't. What started my journey was trying to be honest with myself about what I was really feeling instead of telling others what I thought they wanted to hear...it's been a difficult process. I recommend that you and your husband do the same. Be truly honest with yourself...do you really want to stay in this marriage and love your spouse with all your heart, and can you? If not, moving on may be the best solution for all involved. Good luck!


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## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> Now that 80% gets thrown around a lot. I've got my doubts.
> 
> When you walk away from something bad and you end up disappointed that things didn't get better, it doesn't mean you should have stayed where you were. It can also mean you didn't make realistic expectations of life and ended up chasing rainbows. I think that's what these people who ended up regretting their decisions ended up doing after their divorces, chasing rainbows. If they had had realistic expectations of what better lives could have been, they could have set their caps in that direction and probably done just fine.
> 
> Some people will interpret this as a further argument to stay in a bad marriage, I say it means you still get out but don't expect it to be like winning the lottery.


As many posters here have said you cannot control others, you can only control yourself. That's precisely what the 180 does, it makes you a better person. If you are in a bad marriage there are ways to make it a better marriage, or dare I say it, even a great marriage. When a person has an affair they often spend great amounts of time and energy having the affair and covering it up. If they took that time and energy and devoted it to the marriage I believe most affairs probably would not happen and most marriages would thrive. It's the same thinking that goes into divorce. People think that divorce will end the problems but more often than not the problems still exist and new problems are added. This is because people don't want to put forth an effort. It's simply easier to walk away.

We here on TAM have the ability to learn from others misfortunes and mistakes. But how often do we see people come here and receive appropriate advice only to turn a blind eye and get screwed in the end. Many here have benefited from the advice and even if they do end up divorced they know they did everything they could. They hopefully learned how to be better people as well so in the future if they get involved in a long term relationship it will be successful and fulfilling. At the heart of it all I think we live in a society that is telling us that we can "have it all." As you said, that is a fantasy and once people start seeing reality for what it is they often regret not giving their full effort before they chose the final relationship option.


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## twenty8

FourtyPlus said:


> Like you, I'm not the most patient person in the world, I want everything done yesterday if possible. I don't even know how many times I literally demanded my husband move on because obviously, I had moved on. My thinking was, since I stopped cheating, he needs to stop hurting but it didn't work that way, not at all. Being patient was very hard for me but I finally got to a point where I knew the next trigger would come AND GO and that it wasn't going to be the end of my marriage if I could only shut up and stop demanding he get over it. He says today that he still has some issues to deal with and I know he will do it "his way", not mine.


OMG!! Thank you. I'm in the same boat.. My occurance was right around my BDay.. I still have triggers and believe it or not, the holidays and my BDay are my worst.. But what you just wrote is where Im at right now. My significant other doesn't understand that I can't "control" how these emotions come and go.. Right now Im having issues because I just found out she was secretly still in contact with the OM's ex wife.They used to be best friends from college. Her relationship with the OM was after her friend had gotten divorced. I to this day believe she helped influence it.. Anyways I confronted her and shes apologized. Nothing happened but that was one of my no no's when we agreed to work things out.. And guess what... It happened a week ago.. Today is my BDay.. Go figure. Almost 2 years to the day...

OP I've been reading your thread and I hope things work out. Its almost textbook to my situation.. Sorry for the hijack..


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## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> As many posters here have said you cannot control others, you can only control yourself. That's precisely what the 180 does, it makes you a better person. If you are in a bad marriage there are ways to make it a better marriage, or dare I say it, even a great marriage. When a person has an affair they often spend great amounts of time and energy having the affair and covering it up. If they took that time and energy and devoted it to the marriage I believe most affairs probably would not happen and most marriages would thrive. It's the same thinking that goes into divorce. People think that divorce will end the problems but more often than not the problems still exist and new problems are added. This is because people don't want to put forth an effort. It's simply easier to walk away.
> 
> We here on TAM have the ability to learn from others misfortunes and mistakes. But how often do we see people come here and receive appropriate advice only to turn a blind eye and get screwed in the end. Many here have benefited from the advice and even if they do end up divorced they know they did everything they could. They hopefully learned how to be better people as well so in the future if they get involved in a long term relationship it will be successful and fulfilling. At the heart of it all I think we live in a society that is telling us that we can "have it all." As you said, that is a fantasy and once people start seeing reality for what it is they often regret not giving their full effort before they chose the final relationship option.


You only live once, and you might end up pouring years into something broken just to find out that it can't be fixed. I still say move on. 

Now if I recall correctly, you said that if your wife hadn't come clean of her own volition, if you had had to catch her, you would have dumped her. Would you give that advice to everyone? There's the exception and there's the standard-issue, and they shouldn't be crossed-up.


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## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> You only live once, and you might end up pouring years into something broken just to find out that it can't be fixed. I still say move on.
> 
> Now if I recall correctly, you said that if your wife hadn't come clean of her own volition, if you had had to catch her, you would have dumped her. Would you give that advice to everyone? There's the exception and there's the standard-issue, and they shouldn't be crossed-up.


Yes, I really do believe that if I had caught her while the affair was ongoing we would have divorced. Also, if she had not been completely honest with me I do believe we would have divorced. This happened 20 years ago and at that time I was a much different person than I am today. I know a lot more now and I do have the benefit of time and experience to draw upon. I think that people who come here to TAM have a decided advantage that my wife and I did not when we dealt with our problems. We struggled a lot more than we needed to simply because of ignorance. There is so much more available to couples now than there was a couple of decades ago so I think most marriages are salvageable as long as both parties are willing to work at it.

I realize that for some infidelity is a deal breaker and if a BS comes to that conclusion I certainly respect that decision. But I truly believe that if a couple was happy at any point before an affair occurred that level of happiness can be recaptured. I prefer not to think of it as pouring years into something that is broken but instead I firmly see it as repairing something that for many years was treasured. And if a couple can somehow make it through such a difficult time the struggle itself can be a bonding and building experience. I am so very thankful that my wife and I both committed to repairing and rebuilding our marriage instead of allowing it to wither and die. I know I would have been among the 80% had we not reconciled but I also know it is not possible in all cases. I think as long as an honest and truthful effort is made the decision to divorce will at least be more acceptable if not more palatable.


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## lascarx

Well, that's about what I figured, you saying don't do as I would have done, do what I tell you now. You conjecture and project things with your woman who had at least some moral faculty as your example, and try and ground your arguments as best you can around that. Now I won't call you a huckster but it's still not particularly convincing. Friend, there are still some ugly parts of the pit that you've never personally visited, irrespective of how many picture postcards you've seen. And I still find that 80% suspect, I'm sure you can find other head-shrinker ballots that contradict it roundly.

But I guess if I could count on living forever, I might be inclined to give anything another shot.


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## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> Well, that's about what I figured, you saying don't do as I would have done, do what I tell you now. You conjecture and project things with your woman who had at least some moral faculty as your example, and try and ground your arguments as best you can around that. Now I won't call you a huckster but it's still not particularly convincing. Friend, there are still some ugly parts of the pit that you've never personally visited, irrespective of how many picture postcards you've seen. And I still find that 80% suspect, I'm sure you can find other head-shrinker ballots that contradict it roundly.
> 
> But I guess if I could count on living forever, I might be inclined to give anything another shot.


I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying don't do what I admit I always said I'd do. I am saying I'm glad I did not follow through on what I maintained I'd do if confronted by a cheating spouse. I was always one of those that said if I EVER caught my wife even flirting with another man I'd shoot her between the eyes and move to Alaska. Yes most likely I would have divorced my wife had I caught her mid-affair. And I also would have most likely divorced her had she not completely come clean. You are very correct that in many ways I was fortunate that my wife found some morality and we were able to reconcile. But what you don't seem to grasp is that when this all happened there was no internet. There was no Athol Kay, Dr. William Harley, or Talk About Marriage. What I am saying is that I would have divorced her because I would not have had the information and resources that are available now. There was no roadmap, guidelines or BS support systems in place. Having those resources makes it much more likely that a couple can overcome an affair IF...let me stress that...IF both parties want to reconcile. I realize that many people can't get over the trust issues and believe me, even though I never had to play I Spy Private Eye, I still had a lot of trouble trusting her once again. Believe me, I completely understand why people choose to divorce rather than reconcile. Even though you correctly stated there were ugly pits that I never had to climb out of there were many times that I truly believed we would not make it. Looking back though I can see the regret I would have had if I had not chosen to at least give it my best effort. That is why I can see why so many would feel that they wished they'd gone another route.

All that said, we can all agree on one thing. Getting cheated on sucks beyond comprehension and if you've never gone through it you really can't understand the intense pain that you feel. I'm 20 years out. I still trigger. I still have issues. I would rather have body parts pulled off rather than experience that anguish again.


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## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying don't do what I admit I always said I'd do. I am saying I'm glad I did not follow through on what I maintained I'd do if confronted by a cheating spouse. I was always one of those that said if I EVER caught my wife even flirting with another man I'd shoot her between the eyes and move to Alaska. Yes most likely I would have divorced my wife had I caught her mid-affair. And I also would have most likely divorced her had she not completely come clean. You are very correct that in many ways I was fortunate that my wife found some morality and we were able to reconcile. But what you don't seem to grasp is that when this all happened there was no internet. There was no Athol Kay, Dr. William Harley, or Talk About Marriage. What I am saying is that I would have divorced her because I would not have had the information and resources that are available now. There was no roadmap, guidelines or BS support systems in place. Having those resources makes it much more likely that a couple can overcome an affair IF...let me stress that...IF both parties want to reconcile. I realize that many people can't get over the trust issues and believe me, even though I never had to play I Spy Private Eye, I still had a lot of trouble trusting her once again. Believe me, I completely understand why people choose to divorce rather than reconcile. Even though you correctly stated there were ugly pits that I never had to climb out of there were many times that I truly believed we would not make it. Looking back though I can see the regret I would have had if I had not chosen to at least give it my best effort. That is why I can see why so many would feel that they wished they'd gone another route.
> 
> All that said, we can all agree on one thing. Getting cheated on sucks beyond comprehension and if you've never gone through it you really can't understand the intense pain that you feel. I'm 20 years out. I still trigger. I still have issues. I would rather have body parts pulled off rather than experience that anguish again.


I got your point fine. The main problem with what you say is that it is still grounded in hindsight based on your particular situation that is pretty anomalous, if what I read most of the time is representative.

A liar just lies. You catch a liar in the act, that liar will still lie, that's its substance. It can't be honest about wanting to reconcile because all it knows how to do is lie. All the internet help in the world, all the best head-shrinkers lined up in a row, won't stop a liar from lying. If someone has regrets after kicking a liar to the curb, it's because he or she still doesn't want to see that liar clear for what it is.


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## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> I got your point fine. The main problem with what you say is that it is still grounded in hindsight based on your particular situation that is pretty anomalous, if what I read most of the time is representative.
> 
> A liar just lies. You catch a liar in the act, that liar will still lie, that's its substance. It can't be honest about wanting to reconcile because all it knows how to do is lie. All the internet help in the world, all the best head-shrinkers lined up in a row, won't stop a liar from lying. If someone has regrets after kicking a liar to the curb, it's because he or she still doesn't want to see that liar clear for what it is.


Well, we have successfully threadjacked working's thread. One last thing. I do have to admit and agree with you that my wife's lying to me during her affair was the most despicable thing I had to deal with. While I have come to understand it to some extent I have never been quite able to accept it. I can certainly see how someone could not get past that betrayal.


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## Struggling4ever

Beowulf said:


> I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying don't do what I admit I always said I'd do. I am saying I'm glad I did not follow through on what I maintained I'd do if confronted by a cheating spouse. I was always one of those that said if I EVER caught my wife even flirting with another man I'd shoot her between the eyes and move to Alaska. Yes most likely I would have divorced my wife had I caught her mid-affair. And I also would have most likely divorced her had she not completely come clean. You are very correct that in many ways I was fortunate that my wife found some morality and we were able to reconcile. But what you don't seem to grasp is that when this all happened there was no internet. There was no Athol Kay, Dr. William Harley, or Talk About Marriage. What I am saying is that I would have divorced her because I would not have had the information and resources that are available now. There was no roadmap, guidelines or BS support systems in place. Having those resources makes it much more likely that a couple can overcome an affair IF...let me stress that...IF both parties want to reconcile. I realize that many people can't get over the trust issues and believe me, even though I never had to play I Spy Private Eye, I still had a lot of trouble trusting her once again. Believe me, I completely understand why people choose to divorce rather than reconcile. Even though you correctly stated there were ugly pits that I never had to climb out of there were many times that I truly believed we would not make it. Looking back though I can see the regret I would have had if I had not chosen to at least give it my best effort. That is why I can see why so many would feel that they wished they'd gone another route.
> 
> All that said, we can all agree on one thing. Getting cheated on sucks beyond comprehension and if you've never gone through it you really can't understand the intense pain that you feel. I'm 20 years out. I still trigger. I still have issues. I would rather have body parts pulled off rather than experience that anguish again.


What I take out of all of that is, although you are glad you worked it out and glad that you stayed, 

"Getting cheated on sucks beyond comprehension and if you've never gone through it you really can't understand the intense pain that you feel. I'm 20 years out. I still trigger. I still have issues. I would rather have body parts pulled off rather than experience that anguish again. " 
I am 11 years out, and I still have to deal with triggers and mind movies....never really went away. I still drive past the OM's house several times a year and even to run into him on rare occasion. I was hoping at some point this would go away but all of the people so many years out still have to deal with it and it becomes a part of who they are. I just don't think I'm strong enough to keep doing this sometimes!


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## lascarx

Struggling4ever said:


> I am 11 years out, and I still have to deal with triggers and mind movies....never really went away. I still drive past the OM's house several times a year and even to run into him on rare occasion. I was hoping at some point this would go away but all of the people so many years out still have to deal with it and it becomes a part of who they are. I just don't think I'm strong enough to keep doing this sometimes!


If you can't quit feeling the icepick, how long before you crack? Sounds like you'd be doing both you and your wife a favor if you moved on.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> What I take out of all of that is, although you are glad you worked it out and glad that you stayed,
> 
> "Getting cheated on sucks beyond comprehension and if you've never gone through it you really can't understand the intense pain that you feel. I'm 20 years out. I still trigger. I still have issues. I would rather have body parts pulled off rather than experience that anguish again. "
> I am 11 years out, and I still have to deal with triggers and mind movies....never really went away. I still drive past the OM's house several times a year and even to run into him on rare occasion. I was hoping at some point this would go away but all of the people so many years out still have to deal with it and it becomes a part of who they are. I just don't think I'm strong enough to keep doing this sometimes!


I know what you're saying. For example, one of the things that my wife and I did was take the kids bowling all the time. It was something my father did with me so I in turn used that activity as a family bonding experience. During my wife's affair she and the OM went bowling and then went to a hotel nearby and had sex. What she did not only tarnished my pleasant family memories but I couldn't even think about going bowling again for a long time. It took me almost 5 years but I finally went and I triggered so much I went into the bathroom at the bowling alley and threw up. But I wouldn't let it beat me and so I kept going until it bothered me less and less. One day I told my wife we were going bowling together and then we were going to that same exact hotel room that she was with him. She didn't want to do it but I told her that it was something I needed to do. We were both very nervous but we ended up having a good time together and in that way I replaced a bad memory with a good one. Not saying it will work with everyone but it worked for me.


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## morituri

I went through therapy because the mind movies were excruciatingly painful and REAL since they weren't a product of a fevered imagination but the result of seeing my ex-wife having sex with another man. Nevertheless, I consider therapy with a professional qualified in treating victims of infidelity and PTSD, is an absolute must no matter whether the betrayed spouses chooses to R or D.


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## mahike

I read messages from my wife to the POSM that she wanted to go lake Mohave with him and spend the day at Disneyland with him and then there is the email fantasy where she wakes up and he is standing in the doorway of our bedroom.

The lake has been a family vacation for over 20 years and Disneyland have alway been family days with our kids and granddaughter..... These things are killing me when I think about them. I start with feeling sick to my stomach and then it turns to rage.


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## Struggling4ever

What kills me is my wife says "I loved you the entire time and always wanted to be with you"??? I think then why did this continue? It wasn't a one time thing! She told me they did it at our house more than once but never in our bed....they did it at his girl friends (who was a friend to my wife as well)....but most of the time it was at his house (and she had a key!)????? I mean wtf? How can she look at me and say she wanted to be with me when she had an ongoing affair with this guy and was still sleeping with me, never saying or indicating we had a problem? I knew she was depressed because she used to journal some dark depressing thoughts during this time. I know now this was probably from guilt? 

We would go out dancing every Tuesday, this "friend" would ride with us, we would slow dance and she'd make me feel so special, and at the same time was sleeping with him? I just don't get it? We blame shifted, rugswept, moved on, she's put it behind her, I've had issues and still do. Now that it's all finally come out for me to deal with, we are no longer sleeping together and I don't know how I was ever able to accept it, but I still love her? Triggers truly are a b#tch...damn!
I apologize for threadjacking, I guess it is all about triggers though....think I'll start a new thread?


----------



## bandit.45

> What kills me is my wife says "I loved you the entire time and always wanted to be with you"??? I think then why did this continue? It wasn't a one time thing! She told me they did it at our house more than once but never in our bed....they did it at his girl friends (who was a friend to my wife as well)....but most of the time it was at his house (and she had a key!)????? I mean wtf? How can she look at me and say she wanted to be with me when she had an ongoing affair with this guy and was still sleeping with me, never saying or indicating we had a problem? I knew she was depressed because she used to journal some dark depressing thoughts during this time. I know now this was probably from guilt?
> 
> We would go out dancing every Tuesday, this "friend" would ride with us, we would slow dance and she'd make me feel so special, and at the same time was sleeping with him? I just don't get it? We blame shifted, rugswept, moved on, she's put it behind her, I've had issues and still do.


Maybe you need to accept the fact that your sweet little wife is evil. Mine is. Took me 21 years to realise it, and I'm divorcing her ASAP.


----------



## Shaggy

Working, I want to say that even more than week after hearing your R has failed, it fills me with great sadness.

You sounded so much like you had really committed to finding a way to make it work, to repairing the deep scars your affair have put on the soul of your husband. - you know he's deeply broken inside for life now - don't you?

I hear your tale of how he brought his own daemons into the marriage and how they have hurt you for so long.

But is saddens me deeply to see the turn about in your words and actions. 

You wrote about how committed and focused you were. How you were going to make it work regardless of the challenge. Yet you wrote only half the story, you ignored a major piece of it. Perhaps that's why it has failed - because you were not dealing with the whole marriage.

But the stuff you wrote when you gave up it very troubling. You went from working hard, to spiteful and nasty. If that's the path you are taking then it's going to leave you , him, and daughter even more hurt than before. It's taking the scars from the affair and adding to them.

Try to find the person who was so committed to making it work and spirit she had.


----------



## working_together

jnj express said:


> Hey working---let me ask you something----prior to your straying, from what I am reading, and I have not read everything completely, but it sounds like your mge., had some of the elements of a trainwreck. Your H, would give the shirt off his back to others, but you got ridiculed for many things that he should have instead given you support on.----
> 
> He was to some extent controlling, such as the hugging your friend 1st issue
> 
> Obviously the 2 of you were just not making it very well, given all that I have read here.
> 
> There seem to be lots of problems------that is what happens in mge., maybe your mge., had more problems than others, but the 2 of you stayed
> 
> You stated you argued often, and you yourself, were able to learn to handle your end in the arguments---what I wanna know is, did you ever get up in his face, and threaten him with ending the mge., because of his treatment of you
> 
> I am sure some of your staying power was due to the children
> 
> Your children whether you wanna believe it or not, knew what was going on long ago, and whould have been better off long ago living in happy split homes.
> 
> OK so you strayed, yet now you try to make it up and R., the mge., and now you are again taking crap.
> 
> Why is this mge., still in existence, don't you think this all should have come to an end years ago.----Why were you so afraid to end a bad mge.---Instead you strayed, and have hurt yourself even more.
> 
> I am sure the scum that helped you stray, played on your weakness, but why didn't you just say to yourself, before I really hurt my kids, by straying, why don't I just end this farce of a mge.


You're right, the marriage was bad for years prior to my affair. yes, I should have ended it, I kick myself for not doing it. I'm really not sure why I stayed, fear of the unknown, fear of being alone, I was only 18 when we met, so yeah, a lot of fear there. I have never lived alone. It was never about the kids though, it was about me living in some fantasy that things would change between us and get better. I know different now, the marriage is long over, and we will move on apart, and do the best we can for our kids.

In my sick mind I thought the affair might bring my husband and I closer.


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> Care to give us the gory details?


Sadly, I had to put my cat down last night, he was 19 years old, he was a spry cat back in the day, hence my little story about how he was so territorial.

He used to protect our driveway, I was in the driveway sweeping or something, and my neighbour and his dog walked by, my cat flipped out, ran up to the dog and basically clawed him on his face. The dog never flinched, kept walking while blood was dripping down his face. I apologized to my neighbor, I felt horrible about it.


----------



## working_together

Struggling4ever said:


> What kills me is my wife says "I loved you the entire time and always wanted to be with you"??? I think then why did this continue? It wasn't a one time thing! She told me they did it at our house more than once but never in our bed....they did it at his girl friends (who was a friend to my wife as well)....but most of the time it was at his house (and she had a key!)????? I mean wtf? How can she look at me and say she wanted to be with me when she had an ongoing affair with this guy and was still sleeping with me, never saying or indicating we had a problem? I knew she was depressed because she used to journal some dark depressing thoughts during this time. I know now this was probably from guilt?
> 
> We would go out dancing every Tuesday, this "friend" would ride with us, we would slow dance and she'd make me feel so special, and at the same time was sleeping with him? I just don't get it? We blame shifted, rugswept, moved on, she's put it behind her, I've had issues and still do. Now that it's all finally come out for me to deal with, we are no longer sleeping together and I don't know how I was ever able to accept it, but I still love her? Triggers truly are a b#tch...damn!
> I apologize for threadjacking, I guess it is all about triggers though....think I'll start a new thread?


I'm not so sure I believe what your wife says about loving you while in her affair. I did not love my husband while in my affair, and did not think of him at all really. I was angry with him prior to my affair, I was very miserable at times, and needed an escape from the resentment I had for him.


----------



## JustaJerk

^I guess you can say it was straight out of a Calgon commercial-"_Calgon... take me away_"- the affair, I mean.

It was a fantasy.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> I'm not so sure I believe what your wife says about loving you while in her affair. I did not love my husband while in my affair, and did not think of him at all really. I was angry with him prior to my affair, I was very miserable at times, and needed an escape from the resentment I had for him.


Glad to see you back, Working.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> You're right, the marriage was bad for years prior to my affair. yes, I should have ended it, I kick myself for not doing it. I'm really not sure why I stayed, fear of the unknown, fear of being alone, I was only 18 when we met, so yeah, a lot of fear there. I have never lived alone. It was never about the kids though, it was about me living in some fantasy that things would change between us and get better. I know different now, the marriage is long over, and we will move on apart, and do the best we can for our kids.
> 
> In my sick mind I thought the affair might bring my husband and I closer.


This is one of those ideas that I simply don't get. My marriage sucks and I want to fix it, I KNOW.....I'll have an affair......boy ...that will bring us closer together, won't it.:scratchhead:


----------



## Struggling4ever

working_together said:


> I'm not so sure I believe what your wife says about loving you while in her affair. I did not love my husband while in my affair, and did not think of him at all really. I was angry with him prior to my affair, I was very miserable at times, and needed an escape from the resentment I had for him.


Yeah...I don't believe it either. I can't believe that you can truly be in love with someone and be doing someone else, especially a friend at the same time. If you can, that's not the kind of love I want. I understand falling for someone if things are bad in your marriage and they are there and say all the right things, or even if you're unhappy and you meet someone and have a physical attraction. But that is when you make the decision, do I want to work on my marriage and try to get the feeling back, or do I leave and move on? Right? I don't get how it's ok to do both and say you still love someone and I never will. You might still care about the person, but that's not love!!! I think she was unhappy, she was probably angry at times too, but again....say something and try to work it out, or move on... I don't know why I didn't see things clearly before, and she has been great, and loving, and passionate since then....but whatevr I lost is just gone. I love her, but there is no passion, no desire, just like hanging with a good friend..... )-:


----------



## Struggling4ever

Badblood said:


> This is one of those ideas that I simply don't get. My marriage sucks and I want to fix it, I KNOW.....I'll have an affair......boy ...that will bring us closer together, won't it.:scratchhead:


:iagree::iagree: 
"In my sick mind I thought the affair might bring my husband and I closer." 
Working_together's phrase "In my sick mind"
is a phrase my wife often uses..... and I have always hated it.


----------



## morituri

I hope that you continue with your counseling for YOUR well being as well as for your children's.


----------



## FourtyPlus

I did love my husband during the affair but it wasn't the same kind of love as before or as it is now. I wouldn't say that I just loved him as a friend though, it was more than just that but it wasn't what it should have been. I wasn't in love with the OM either, which made NC pretty easy.

I didn't have the affair on purpose and I didn't have the affair in order to fix my marriage. I don't understand that concept at all and I don't think that's how and why people have affairs. Maybe I'm wrong, it just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## ButterflyFree

I am very sad today and to hear things aren't going to work out for you it brought on tears. As another WW I found a few similarities and liked reading your post, it helped to know I'm not the only one, as I struggle with my own R. 

Stay strong for your family and never stop growing emotionally.


----------



## warlock07

The OM might be on prowl. Stay aware. The last time you talked to him, he was sending you some feelers. You are going to be alone for quite some time. Don't slip up and call him on some lonely night. Take some time off relationships.


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> The OM might be on prowl. Stay aware. The last time you talked to him, he was sending you some feelers. You are going to be alone for quite some time. Don't slip up and call him on some lonely night. Take some time off relationships.


Very good advice, but why would you look at that loser again, anyway?


----------



## Badblood

Geez, what is this anyway, selfish WW'S corner? Butterfly, you and Fortyplus and Working instead of opining about how tough it is on yourselves, maybe should try to imagine the feelings of your BS'S? Think that might be a good idea?


----------



## morituri

I think working_together can find herself a much better alternative than the loser OM. I don't think that she's going to be suffering from a lack of attention from other men for despite what many here paint with regards to mature women, 40 and over, my experience has been that they are the best lovers bar none - my girlfriend is 49, intelligent, funny and in much better shape physically than women half her age. My ex-wife was a hottie herself and she was in her forties as well.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Badblood said:


> Geez, what is this anyway, selfish WW'S corner? Butterfly, you and Fortyplus and Working instead of opining about how tough it is on yourselves, maybe should try to imagine the feelings of your BS'S? Think that might be a good idea?


Ever occured to you that the WS struggles as well and might need an uplifting word here and there? Nobody asked you to chime in on it - so what's your point? If you don't like my posts, put me on IGNORE, please.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Badblood said:


> Geez, what is this anyway, selfish WW'S corner? Butterfly, you and Fortyplus and Working instead of opining about how tough it is on yourselves, maybe should try to imagine the feelings of your BS'S? Think that might be a good idea?


I agree 100%


----------



## Dexter Morgan

FourtyPlus said:


> Ever occured to you that the WS struggles as well and might need an uplifting word here and there?


Maybe, but after completely betraying someone in one of the worst ways possible, to which you have given them something to occupy there mind from here until the day you are no longer together, a cheater's need for an uplifting word, while it can be given, is of secondary consideration.




> Nobody asked you to chime in on it


Ya well he did. So deal with it.




> so what's your point?


It was pretty clear to anyone that can read.



> If you don't like my posts, put me on IGNORE, please.


Pot, kettle, black.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Well thank god it isn't up to dexter to decide other people's priorities, lol


----------



## working_together

morituri said:


> I think working_together can find herself a much better alternative than the loser OM. I don't think that she's going to be suffering from a lack of attention from other men for despite what many here paint with regards to mature women, 40 and over, my experience has been that they are the best lovers bar none - my girlfriend is 49, intelligent, funny and in much better shape physically than women half her age. My ex-wife was a hottie herself and she was in her forties as well.


I'm not looking for another man.......sheesh, I'm enjoying being alone, didn't think I would really, but there is just this relaxing feeling that's come over me. I thought I would feel so alone, or missing my husband, but it's not like that. It's a feeling of finality, it's over. It's sad for the kids, but we're managing, and they're seeing him often.

I will not be looking for another relationship for a long time, I need to focus on myself, and my kids for the time being, it's a big adjustment for everyone, it takes time.


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Very good advice, but why would you look at that loser again, anyway?


Just wondering why people would even think I would call him or contact him, yep, big looser.


----------



## warlock07

working_together said:


> Just wondering why people would even think I would call him or contact him, yep, big looser.


Have you guys patched up?


----------



## [email protected]

you dont miss your husband? wow, thats pretty quick


----------



## lascarx

working_together said:


> You're right, the marriage was bad for years prior to my affair. yes, I should have ended it, I kick myself for not doing it. I'm really not sure why I stayed, fear of the unknown, fear of being alone, I was only 18 when we met, so yeah, a lot of fear there. I have never lived alone. It was never about the kids though, it was about me living in some fantasy that things would change between us and get better. I know different now, the marriage is long over, and we will move on apart, and do the best we can for our kids.
> 
> In my sick mind I thought the affair might bring my husband and I closer.





working_together said:


> I'm not so sure I believe what your wife says about loving you while in her affair. I did not love my husband while in my affair, and did not think of him at all really. I was angry with him prior to my affair, I was very miserable at times, and needed an escape from the resentment I had for him.


So what do you call the balance now? Obviously, you didn't do your husband a big favor, for him it's most likely going to be one of those gifts that keeps on giving while it sounds like you get to pretty much walk. Do you call it pain given for pain received, or sorry, it was a mistake? Or something else? Would be interested to know where your conscience sits on this.


----------



## lascarx

FourtyPlus said:


> Ever occured to you that the WS struggles as well and might need an uplifting word here and there? Nobody asked you to chime in on it - so what's your point? If you don't like my posts, put me on IGNORE, please.


There are other places where cheaters get more sympathy and acceptance. Mainly from other cheaters, it's a true community of understanding. Quite frankly asked, why don't you go to one of those boards? It's no skin off my back either way, but you're more likely to get an uplifting word from others who are like you.


----------



## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> There are other places where cheaters get more sympathy and acceptance. Mainly from other cheaters, it's a true community of understanding. Quite frankly asked, why don't you go to one of those boards? It's no skin off my back either way, but you're more likely to get an uplifting word from others who are like you.


I think those WS who own their sh!t get treated pretty well on these boards. I think it's the ones that don't come clean, rewrite their story many times over, and make excuses for their behavior that catch hell. I think it triggers most BS who experienced it first hand after D-Day. You know that old gaslighting and trickle truth thing.


----------



## Struggling4ever

FourtyPlus said:


> I did love my husband during the affair....I didn't have the affair on purpose and I didn't have the affair in order to fix my marriage. I don't understand that concept at all and I don't think that's how and why people have affairs. Maybe I'm wrong, it just doesn't make sense to me.


"I did love my husband during the affair"
:lol:This makes no sense to me? Maybe you cared, but that's not love....(my opinion).


----------



## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> Ever occured to you that the WS struggles as well and might need an uplifting word here and there? Nobody asked you to chime in on it - so what's your point? If you don't like my posts, put me on IGNORE, please.


Just because I thought your post was selfish , doesn't mean I want to ignore you, it means I thought it was selfish.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

FourtyPlus said:


> Well thank god it isn't up to dexter to decide other people's priorities, lol


Thank god not everyone has to put up with being in a relationship with someone that can't be trusted. Like you. lol

Sorry, as a cheater, it may be appropriate for your feelings to be taken into consideration, but they come second to the man you screwed over.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Dexter Morgan said:


> Thank god not everyone has to put up with being in a relationship with someone that can't be trusted. Like you. lol
> 
> Sorry, as a cheater, it may be appropriate for your feelings to be taken into consideration, but they come second to the man you screwed over.


:iagree:

The harm that is done by the WS is unbelievable, the damage to the BS life as well as the destruction of the ability of the BS to Trust lasts forever. I do not believe that a WS can truely love the BS when they have an affair. I would give my life for someone I loved so I can never understand how someone can have an affair if they love the BS. 

When the cheater CHOOSES to have the affair they are responsible and accountable to the BS for that affair. Most want to rugsweep and don't want to do the work to try and recover the marriage if the BS is willing.


----------



## working_together

[email protected] said:


> you dont miss your husband? wow, thats pretty quick


The last year was hard on both of us, I guess mostly him, he was very unhappy, angry most of the time. I guess what I meant is that I don't miss that part of him. I miss the good times though.


----------



## working_together

lascarx said:


> So what do you call the balance now? Obviously, you didn't do your husband a big favor, for him it's most likely going to be one of those gifts that keeps on giving while it sounds like you get to pretty much walk. Do you call it pain given for pain received, or sorry, it was a mistake? Or something else? Would be interested to know where your conscience sits on this.


I know I have harmed my husband in a lot of ways, he's going to suffer for a long time, have trust issues probably with other women. I still feel horrible for what I have done to him, and I will feel guilty about that for a long time. It wasn't about getting back at him for the way he treated me prior to the affair, it was merely an attempt to escape my own pain, and the helpless feeling I had about my marriage at the time. I have told him that I do not want much from him in terms of money, I just want him to be happy.

I have two small children to care for now, do I get to walk away? yeah, but with a lot of guilt over what I've done to another human being. I see it on his face every time I see him.


----------



## working_together

OneMan said:


> So you're saying you don't care about his angry feelings (and he was well within his rights to have them) but you miss when he was clueless to what you were doing behind his back.


Of course I cared about his angry feelings, I was constantly trying to make him feel better, he was in a rage most of the time, there's only so much I could say or do. It went on for an entire year, my kids were suffering quite a bit. 

I meant that I missed the good times in our relationship as a whole, not during the affair (it wasn't good at all then).


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Have you guys patched up?


Patched up with who????


----------



## working_together

ButterflyFree said:


> I am very sad today and to hear things aren't going to work out for you it brought on tears. As another WW I found a few similarities and liked reading your post, it helped to know I'm not the only one, as I struggle with my own R.
> 
> Stay strong for your family and never stop growing emotionally.


Thanks, I guess the toughest part is watching my kids act out, or test limits because they're trying to adjust to a new situation. I'm doing the best I can to stay calm, not react, but continue to discipline them as usual. They're very sensitive to how I'm feeling, and see it on my face right away.


----------



## warlock07

working_together said:


> Patched up with who????



Badblood and you i guess.


----------



## lascarx

working_together said:


> I know I have harmed my husband in a lot of ways, he's going to suffer for a long time, have trust issues probably with other women. I still feel horrible for what I have done to him, and I will feel guilty about that for a long time. It wasn't about getting back at him for the way he treated me prior to the affair, it was merely an attempt to escape my own pain, and the helpless feeling I had about my marriage at the time. I have told him that I do not want much from him in terms of money, I just want him to be happy.
> 
> I have two small children to care for now, do I get to walk away? yeah, but with a lot of guilt over what I've done to another human being. I see it on his face every time I see him.


That's taking some kind of strange middle road where you don't have to do anything, but you say it's still put right because of your internal guilt.

You don't have to ever be a couple again, but it does sound like you know that you owe him a good turn. Will you ever do it, and what will it be, I wonder?




working_together said:


> I just want him to be happy.


There's want and there's do. Yours still to help or his to do alone now?


----------



## FourtyPlus

Struggling4ever said:


> "I did love my husband during the affair"
> :lol:This makes no sense to me? Maybe you cared, but that's not love....(my opinion).


Just cared? That's not the way it was, that's not the way I felt and I know that's hard to understand for you. I don't know how to say it any other way.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Dexter Morgan said:


> Thank god not everyone has to put up with being in a relationship with someone that can't be trusted. Like you. lol
> 
> Sorry, as a cheater, it may be appropriate for your feelings to be taken into consideration, but they come second to the man you screwed over.


You are not the judge of what comes first and second to my husband - he is! I know you want to but you are not. You can be the judge of that for yourself only.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Badblood said:


> Just because I thought your post was selfish , doesn't mean I want to ignore you, it means I thought it was selfish.


Can you say which post? Seems to me that if I say "Good Morning" it must have been a selfish statement.


----------



## FourtyPlus

OneMan said:


> I hate it when women say that crap, knowing it's not true.


Only when women say it? How do you know it's not true in some cases? Do you know from experience because you have cheated yourself and found you didn't love your spouse during the affair, only before and after?


----------



## FourtyPlus

OneMan said:


> :rofl: So you telling me you actually loved your husband when you cheated?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's you trying to reflect yourself on someone else because I'm not a cheater.



I don't see your need to make fun of what I'm saying. I have explained previously how I felt and feel. I have explained that what I have felt for my husband during the affair was different from before and now. I don't see how this is funny to you.
Would you prefer I say something other than what I felt?

I do not reflect myself onto someone or on you. I simply asked if you know what it feels like being in the other shoe. I thought you might and that you maybe weren't in love with the person you have cheated on while you cheated. 
Now that you say you are not a cheater, I understand that this is probably never going to happen to you, you would never ever cheat and you don't even want to know what it is like. So you don't know what a cheater might feel like and why they might say they did love their spouse while they cheated.


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> Badblood and you i guess.


Working has always been my snookums, Warlock. Didn't you know that?


----------



## warlock07

Too much hate fest going around here with lots of personal insults


----------



## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> Can you say which post? Seems to me that if I say "Good Morning" it must have been a selfish statement.


Not true. If you had said good morning to me, I would have said it back to you. I am a very cheerful and polite fellow. But please take a few minutes to reflect on what you are saying , and to whom you are saying it to. You have no idea what it is like to hear a WS tell you that they love you, always loved you, still love you , or any of the above....after an affair has been revealed. It's massively disrespectful and insulting to the intelligence of the BS. My wife, just yesterday told me that I am the "love of her life', all it did was make me want to puke with disgust. Personally, I don't think ANY WS is even capable of true love, except for themselves, of course.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> I know I have harmed my husband in a lot of ways, he's going to suffer for a long time, have trust issues probably with other women. I still feel horrible for what I have done to him, and I will feel guilty about that for a long time. It wasn't about getting back at him for the way he treated me prior to the affair, it was merely an attempt to escape my own pain, and the helpless feeling I had about my marriage at the time. I have told him that I do not want much from him in terms of money, I just want him to be happy.
> 
> I have two small children to care for now, do I get to walk away? yeah, but with a lot of guilt over what I've done to another human being. I see it on his face every time I see him.


Working, what strikes me the most about your posts, is thae fact that IF you had put as much work and sympathy and love and thought INTO your marriage, as you have in destroying it, you would still be in a much better place than you are , right now. Your husband's "faults", you have known about for years, as he has known about yours. You have, in several places, told about how supportive he has always been for you, and how much he has tried to please you. Instead of being prideful and willful, if you had been as loving and concerned about his situation, do you honestly think it would have come to this? Remember, be honest.


----------



## FourtyPlus

I didn't mean to say you are rude and wouldn't say Good Morning back, I meant to say that it seems no matter what a WS says on here it's deemed a lie. 
I don't know your particular story and I don't know your wife etc. but why do you think she says you are the love of your life? What is her benefit from saying it when she doesn't mean it. 
I would say the same thing to my husband. I do not because I know he doesn't believe me but that doesn't make it untrue. He IS the love of my life. I know this because I feel it now and have felt it before the affair. It was different during but it was still love. This is what I feel and when we talk about honesty, transparency and being upfront, should I lie about this because it hurts my husband? 
I understand that you are unable to understand how a WS can love their spouse while cheating and it's not because you're stupid, it's because you do not know any better because you haven't cheated. There's nothing wrong with it. I understand that you don't understand, it's a no brainer. There is a difference though in saying that you don't understand - can't relate - can't wrap your head around it and simply putting it off as "all WS lie".


----------



## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> I didn't mean to say you are rude and wouldn't say Good Morning back, I meant to say that it seems no matter what a WS says on here it's deemed a lie.
> I don't know your particular story and I don't know your wife etc. but why do you think she says you are the love of your life? What is her benefit from saying it when she doesn't mean it.
> I would say the same thing to my husband. I do not because I know he doesn't believe me but that doesn't make it untrue. He IS the love of my life. I know this because I feel it now and have felt it before the affair. It was different during but it was still love. This is what I feel and when we talk about honesty, transparency and being upfront, should I lie about this because it hurts my husband?
> I understand that you are unable to understand how a WS can love their spouse while cheating and it's not because you're stupid, it's because you do not know any better because you haven't cheated. There's nothing wrong with it. I understand that you don't understand, it's a no brainer. There is a difference though in saying that you don't understand - can't relate - can't wrap your head around it and simply putting it off as "all WS lie".


All WS lie... because they had the affair. If they were honest, the affair would never have taken place.... Right? It isn't even possible to have an honest affair, if it was, it would be an "open marriage", and not an affair. It is the deceit and dishonesty that MAKES it an affair. Did YOU tell your husband that you were going to eff another guy? All I hear from most WS is after-the-fact guilt. You WANT to believe that you loved your husband during the affair , so it won't seem as vile and sordid as it really was. You say it to make YOU feel better about yourself, not to make your husband feel any better. The proof is that you are still lying to your husband about your true feelings , and excusing it by saying that you are doing it for his benefit, when, in reality, you are lying to spare yourself any more fallout from your cheating. Believe me.... I would WELCOME any WS who would come here and be completely honest.


----------



## FourtyPlus

It doesn't make me feel any better to say I loved my husband during the affair, not a bit. Doesn't make me a better person either. I have no benefit from saying it other than that I know it's the truth and I'm the only one who can know and since other WS, not all of them but some, say the same thing - there might be something to it. 

The rest is you assuming to know how I feel about my husband. There is no fallout that hasn't happened yet. I'm not afraid of it if there was. My husband does believe I didn't love him during the affair. Tell me what the possible fallout would be IF I didn't love him during the affair. The fallout is already over! He already believes it and I'm not going to change that, nor am I trying.
Where is my reason for lying? Where is it??????


----------



## morituri

Badblood, from my understanding, FourtyPlus had a one-sided EA where the OM tried to woo her but she didn't allow herself to be emotionally sucked in. Still it was her initial attempts at trickle truth that did much damage to her husband's trust in her and which lead to her marriage ending.


----------



## warlock07

it ended? I thought things were Ok between them

edit: Never mind. I was confused


----------



## FourtyPlus

Not quite right. I had an EA, I didn't love the OM and I had no fog that I know of.
My marriage didn't end, I'm still married, we are 4 years past Dday and we still have issues, not so much with each other but my husband has issues dealing with things. He wants to deal with things his own way, doesn't want further MC. I've tried the best I can to get him help but it's ultimately up to him, all I can do is offer.


----------



## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> It doesn't make me feel any better to say I loved my husband during the affair, not a bit. Doesn't make me a better person either. I have no benefit from saying it other than that I know it's the truth and I'm the only one who can know and since other WS, not all of them but some, say the same thing - there might be something to it.
> 
> The rest is you assuming to know how I feel about my husband. There is no fallout that hasn't happened yet. I'm not afraid of it if there was. My husband does believe I didn't love him during the affair. Tell me what the possible fallout would be IF I didn't love him during the affair. The fallout is already over! He already believes it and I'm not going to change that, nor am I trying.
> Where is my reason for lying? Where is it??????


Sorry about thinking the affair was a PA, instead of a PA, my bad. Fourty, I don't have the answers, just the questions. YOU said that you are not telling your husband the truth about your feelings, I didn't say that. YOU are the only one who can rebuilt trust, and how can you do it, if you are still lying? One thing I DO agree with Dr. Harley about is the policy of radical honesty. In order to rebuild trust, you MUST, MUST, MUST, be COMPLETELY honest, anything less is deceit, regardless of it's motivation. You and Working still don't get that part. By trying to sooth your husband's bruised ego, instead of being the honest straight-forward person you should be, you are doing the same things that lead to the affair , in the first place. How can he trust you, or even forgive you, if he doesn't know the real you and your real feelings.


----------



## working_together

lascarx said:


> That's taking some kind of strange middle road where you don't have to do anything, but you say it's still put right because of your internal guilt.
> 
> You don't have to ever be a couple again, but it does sound like you know that you owe him a good turn. Will you ever do it, and what will it be, I wonder?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's want and there's do. Yours still to help or his to do alone now?


Obviously I will not make him personally happy, I know how to ease some stress off of him, and that makes him happy. yeah, I know I owe him big time, so I will try not to make a stink about things that bother me. I'll suck it up.


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Working, what strikes me the most about your posts, is thae fact that IF you had put as much work and sympathy and love and thought INTO your marriage, as you have in destroying it, you would still be in a much better place than you are , right now. Your husband's "faults", you have known about for years, as he has known about yours. You have, in several places, told about how supportive he has always been for you, and how much he has tried to please you. Instead of being prideful and willful, if you had been as loving and concerned about his situation, do you honestly think it would have come to this? Remember, be honest.


Yes, at times he was supportive, and a great friend in so many ways. I agree I didn't love him enough, didn't pay enough attention to him, I guess I didn't think he needed it as much as I know now. I should have doted on him more. If I had done all that, maybe our relationship wouldn't have come to this, I don't know any more. I think he was resentful about a lot of things in his life, not just me. I could have been more supportive of his injuries, I thought I was, but it wasn't enough. I guess I was focussed on my only son at the time, and being a good mother, and my studies. I have to look at a lot of things to understand what went wrong. Bottom line I should never have stooped to the level of cheating.


----------



## [email protected]

Dont worry, in due time you'll find someone better and he will be but a distant memory


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> Sorry about thinking the affair was a PA, instead of a PA, my bad. Fourty, I don't have the answers, just the questions. YOU said that you are not telling your husband the truth about your feelings, I didn't say that. YOU are the only one who can rebuilt trust, and how can you do it, if you are still lying? One thing I DO agree with Dr. Harley about is the policy of radical honesty. In order to rebuild trust, you MUST, MUST, MUST, be COMPLETELY honest, anything less is deceit, regardless of it's motivation. You and Working still don't get that part. By trying to sooth your husband's bruised ego, instead of being the honest straight-forward person you should be, you are doing the same things that lead to the affair , in the first place. How can he trust you, or even forgive you, if he doesn't know the real you and your real feelings.



I told my husband that during the affair I did not love him, and didn't think about him much, how could I? I threw him out? I was heartless with my affair, obviously I had no love for him at the time. During R. I slowly got some of it back, I didn't try enough though, we all know that. My love for him has never returned to what it was a year or so ago. It just doesn't come back, or at least not for me. I kept thinking it would get better, and in reality he knew I didn't love him enough, and staying would be painful for him. His love for me was gone as well, too much damage done with the lies.


----------



## JustaJerk

> I told my husband that during the affair I did not love him, and didn't think about him much, how could I?


I think I'd rather hear this, instead of _"I love you, and always have"_ during the affairage. It sounds about right. I mean... how can you truthfully say you love someone while giving yourself to another; be it emotionally, physically, or both... just doesn't make sense. :scratchhead:


----------



## morituri

Everything is possible, including falling in love after infidelity. But unless there is a mutual commitment to achieving it, it is just an exercise in futility. You both tried but it was simply too much for your husband to transcend.

As a betrayed husband, it is my belief that while an unfaithful wife can help or hinder her betrayed husband's emotional recovery, it is ultimately the husband who holds the power to heal, or not. The healing must be independent of the unfaithful wife or whether the marriage continues or ends.


----------



## morituri

Hey what do you know! The 'Edit Ignore List' actually works!


----------



## FourtyPlus

Badblood said:


> Sorry about thinking the affair was a PA, instead of a PA, my bad. Fourty, I don't have the answers, just the questions. YOU said that you are not telling your husband the truth about your feelings, I didn't say that. YOU are the only one who can rebuilt trust, and how can you do it, if you are still lying? One thing I DO agree with Dr. Harley about is the policy of radical honesty. In order to rebuild trust, you MUST, MUST, MUST, be COMPLETELY honest, anything less is deceit, regardless of it's motivation. You and Working still don't get that part. By trying to sooth your husband's bruised ego, instead of being the honest straight-forward person you should be, you are doing the same things that lead to the affair , in the first place. How can he trust you, or even forgive you, if he doesn't know the real you and your real feelings.


My husband KNOWS already that I feel that I loved him during the affair and I'm pointing out again that my feelings of love for him did change during the affair, they were not the same as before but geez, I even told the OM that I love my husband and ended up arguing with the OM because he was hell bend on convincing me that my husband has an affair.
So my husband knows already that I feel this way and he doesn't believe it. Why do you want me to keep telling him that I loved him during the affair. He already knows it and doesn't believe it. All I can do is keep it that way because I have no evidence for my feelings during the affair. It's not something I can prove. It's a dead end, kind of. I have been honest with all my feelings after Dday. He doesn't believe some of it no matter what I say - his call. I don't see the point in me saying again and again "I still loved you during the affair" when he still doesn't believe it. He won't believe it if I say it 500 times - SO I DON'T SAY IT (sorry, not capitalizing because I'm yelling, I just feel frustrated).

There is nothing left for me to say that my husband hasn't already heard from me. And yes, right after Dday there were plenty of things that were hard for me to say, feelings that I've had for a long time that weren't exactly balm for the soul. I wasn't trained in coping with my affair, I also wasn't trained in building trust and the same goes for my husband btw. It took me time to say these things, some of which I hadn't even acknowledged myself until after the affair. You call it trickle truth on here. I made mistakes after the affair, YES, but those weren't deliberate lies. If I knew then what I know now.....

Bad, what I'm looking for, in general, on here is answers.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

FourtyPlus said:


> You are not the judge of what comes first and second to my husband - he is!


I agree.

But unless he is the most gaslighted man on the face of the earth, he isn't going to agree that your feelings as a cheater should be put ahead of his needs as someone who was effed over royally.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Badblood said:


> All WS lie... because they had the affair. If they were honest, the affair would never have taken place.... Right?


Absolutely right. People who cheat are liars by default.




> You WANT to believe that you loved your husband during the affair , so it won't seem as vile and sordid as it really was.


Exactly. I wonder, when a wife is getting pounded by another man, or a husband is getting rode by another woman, that during the act they are thinking to themselves, "I really love my spouse! This wouldn't hurt him at all"

I realize in the case of 40+ (and forty is the correct spelling) that it was a cybersex affair with nude pics being traded back and forth, but if her H was out of town, and this "Terry" were sitting right in front of her, at the time, it would have crossed the physical barrier in some way.

And in the case of infidelity, sorry, I wouldn't feel much love from a woman that spread her legs for another man.


----------



## morituri

FourtyPlus said:


> Bad, what I'm looking for, in general, on here is answers.


To what questions?


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> I told my husband that during the affair I did not love him, and didn't think about him much, how could I? I threw him out? I was heartless with my affair, obviously I had no love for him at the time. During R. I slowly got some of it back, I didn't try enough though, we all know that. My love for him has never returned to what it was a year or so ago. It just doesn't come back, or at least not for me. I kept thinking it would get better, and in reality he knew I didn't love him enough, and staying would be painful for him. His love for me was gone as well, too much damage done with the lies.


 Thank you, Working. These are some of the ideas I was trying to get Fourtyplus to understand. Marriage, after an affair is a horrible place to be, for BOTH the WS and BS. Both parties will have huge emotional hurdles to overcome. Love, hate, mistrust , guilt, remorse, loss, anger, triggers, stress and everything in between, swirl together into a hell's broth of psychic chaos. To even begin to make any sense of anything, 3 things MUST happen, for both parties. Communication, ABSOLUTE HONESTY and selflessness are paramount. All of the things it takes to START a new marriage, are the same things it takes to repair a damaged one. WE have to learn to be a good spouse, because if we had been before, the affair would not have taken place. I am constantly amused by both BS'S and WS'S saying , "our marriage was great", until the affair happened. This is maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If the marriage was great, there would have been no affair.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

FourtyPlus said:


> Bad, what I'm looking for, in general, on here is answers.


to what?


----------



## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> My husband KNOWS already that I feel that I loved him during the affair and I'm pointing out again that my feelings of love for him did change during the affair, they were not the same as before but geez, I even told the OM that I love my husband and ended up arguing with the OM because he was hell bend on convincing me that my husband has an affair.
> So my husband knows already that I feel this way and he doesn't believe it. Why do you want me to keep telling him that I loved him during the affair. He already knows it and doesn't believe it. All I can do is keep it that way because I have no evidence for my feelings during the affair. It's not something I can prove. It's a dead end, kind of. I have been honest with all my feelings after Dday. He doesn't believe some of it no matter what I say - his call. I don't see the point in me saying again and again "I still loved you during the affair" when he still doesn't believe it. He won't believe it if I say it 500 times - SO I DON'T SAY IT (sorry, not capitalizing because I'm yelling, I just feel frustrated).
> 
> There is nothing left for me to say that my husband hasn't already heard from me. And yes, right after Dday there were plenty of things that were hard for me to say, feelings that I've had for a long time that weren't exactly balm for the soul. I wasn't trained in coping with my affair, I also wasn't trained in building trust and the same goes for my husband btw. It took me time to say these things, some of which I hadn't even acknowledged myself until after the affair. You call it trickle truth on here. I made mistakes after the affair, YES, but those weren't deliberate lies. If I knew then what I know now.....
> 
> Bad, what I'm looking for, in general, on here is answers.


The answer is, of course, that you need to be honest with yourself AND your husband. You have repeated to yourself that you loved your husband, during the affair, like some kind of mantra. Like a frightened child that repeats, "I'm not afraid", to themselves, to ease their terror. I simply don't believe it's possible to do so. You may have before, you may have after, but during, what you did was pure hate and disrespect, and the sooner you admit it to him AND yourself, the sooner you can heal, either together or apart. I wish you luck, because you will need it, if you can't face your own demons.


----------



## morituri

Badblood said:


> I am constantly amused by both BS'S and WS'S saying , "our marriage was great", until the affair happened. This is maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If the marriage was great, there would have been no affair


Sorry BB but I must call the :bsflag: on you on this one. Your own situation - as well as many others here - shows this is total BS. 

A bad marriage can create an environment where a spouse may be more vulnerable to an opportunity to cheat on his/her spouse but even happily married spouses can have affairs if they continually break marital boundaries or they suffer from pre-marital FOO issues.

But whatever the factors that lead a spouse to cheat, the truth is that without violation of marital boundaries there can be no affair.


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Sorry BB but I must call the :bsflag: on you on this one. Your own situation - as well as many others here - shows this is total BS.
> 
> A bad marriage can create an environment where a spouse may be more vulnerable to an opportunity to cheat on his/her spouse but even happily married spouses can have affairs if they continually break marital boundaries or they suffer from pre-marital FOO issues.
> 
> But whatever the factors that lead a spouse to cheat, the truth is that without violation of marital boundaries there can be no affair.


If the marriage is great, there is no desire or need to violate boundaries. The damage in the marriage might be subtle, it might be hidden, but it exists.


----------



## FourtyPlus

morituri said:


> To what questions?


They are all selfish questions, many of which were answered:

Why did I cheat?
When did I cross the boundary?
Why didn't I see the boundary?
What is it going to take for me to fix my marriage?
Do I want to fix my marriage?
What is love and what isn't?
How do people cope with infidelity, on both sides?
Can infidelity be overcome?
Can marriages grow stronger after infidelity?

and there's 50 others that are all about the same subject and the above are not in order of their priority or chronological order.


----------



## Complexity

OneMan said:


> *They're not kids* who need to be coddled.


Infact I found this to be the very case. When you spoil a child they ultimately grow up to be selfish and only self concerned. The same with spouses. If you become the greatest husband in the world, give them everything they want and in general spoil them rotten, they begin to have a higher threshold of expectancy, take you for granted and essentially, a self fulfilling prophecy occurs. 

What's the phrase people like to throw around here? "you've become too beta". All my life I thought that was a good thing to be with your spouse. I mean, who else are you going to spoil, be soft and gentle with in this world other than the woman of your dreams. Well that was the case until a very loud wake up call rang.


----------



## morituri

Badblood said:


> If the marriage is great, there is no desire or need to violate boundaries. The damage in the marriage might be subtle, it might be hidden, but it exists.


Once again I must disagree with you because the violation of boundaries is a gradual process independent of the state of the marriage. The crossing of boundaries often starts as an innocent friendship that slowly starts to become more involved until they are in way too deep. In the case of a spouse with a fragile ego, the affair is almost a certainty.

The marriage didn't make them do it (the affair), they chose to do it out of their own free will. The marriage is not bad, it is the spouse that is bad.


----------



## morituri

FourtyPlus said:


> They are all selfish questions, many of which were answered:
> 
> Why did I cheat?
> When did I cross the boundary?
> Why didn't I see the boundary?
> What is it going to take for me to fix my marriage?
> Do I want to fix my marriage?
> What is love and what isn't?
> How do people cope with infidelity, on both sides?
> Can infidelity be overcome?
> Can marriages grow stronger after infidelity?
> 
> and there's 50 others that are all about the same subject and the above are not in order of their priority or chronological order.


Are you going counseling to find the answers?


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Once again I must disagree with you because the violation of boundaries is a gradual process independent of the state of the marriage. The crossing of boundaries often starts as an innocent friendship that slowly starts to become more involved until they are in way too deep. In the case of a spouse with a fragile ego, the affair is almost a certainty.
> 
> The marriage didn't make them do it (the affair), they chose to do it out of their own free will. The marriage is not bad, it is the spouse that is bad.


A great marriage is one in which BOTH partners are fully committed to the marriage and their marriage partner. If half of the couple is bad, the marriage itself is bad. There is no such thing as a great marriage between one partner who is faithful and the other who has boundary issues. A marriage isn't an entity, of itself, it is an action. So, you are wrong, Mori....neener, neener neener. LOL


----------



## morituri

Badblood said:


> So, you are wrong, Mori....neener, neener neener. LOL


Mori takes his ball and goes home crying like a sissy because BB was mean to him. 

:lol:


----------



## FourtyPlus

morituri said:


> Are you going counseling to find the answers?


I have been but am not anymore.


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> Mori takes his ball and goes home crying like a sissy because BB was mean to him.
> 
> :lol:


dunt git mad ut me cuz i is smorter thin u is i gots a 9grad ejukshun


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> They are all selfish questions, many of which were answered:
> 
> Why did I cheat?
> 
> *Assuming no abuse or other issues exist that could cause emotional or sexual problems, you cheated because your marriage was not stable, you had poor boundaries and you began to think of yourself more than your husband. You and your husband did not communicate effectively and there was not complete honesty and openness in the marriage. The exact reasons vary but it always seems to come down to this.*
> 
> When did I cross the boundary?
> 
> *You crossed the boundary when you began to treat another person like you should treat your spouse. Whether it was sexual or simply revealing intimate details of the marriage. As soon as you did something with someone else that you felt you had to hide from your husband you crossed the boundary.*
> 
> Why didn't I see the boundary?
> 
> *Because you weren't looking for it. You were not vigilant. You were not thinking "how will this affect my husband" before you did it.*
> 
> 
> What is it going to take for me to fix my marriage?
> 
> *It's going to take a lot of hard work from you. You are a new person to him. He has no reason to trust you or love you. You have to show him that your are trustworthy by being completely honest and open at all times. You have to give him a reason to love you by doing even more than you did the first time to attract him. You have to be the best woman you can be and every thing you do should be with him in mind.*
> 
> 
> Do I want to fix my marriage?
> 
> *Only you can answer that question but I would suggest that the fact that you are asking this question shows that in your heart you are not fully committed to what must be done.*
> 
> 
> What is love and what isn't?
> 
> *That depends on who you ask. Dr. Harley says that fulfilling a person's needs will make you fall in love. Athol Kay says that it is biological and chemical responses in the brain that cause feelings of love. Some believe that our souls reincarnate over and over again and we interact with each other over several lifetimes until we "get it right." Coffee, tea or milk. It's your choice as to who you believe*
> 
> 
> How do people cope with infidelity, on both sides?
> 
> *The answer to this is so varied that responding here would not be reasonable. Suffice it to say that there are two basic ways. Reconciliation and divorce.*
> 
> 
> Can infidelity be overcome?
> 
> *Yes, my wife and I are proof positive that you can have a wonderful marriage even after infidelity. Is it easy? No. Is it worth it. For us it was. For others, probably not. I think it depends on whether you want to truly spend a lifetime working on your marriage. When we get married we all should expect to work on our marriages for a lifetime but almost nobody does. If you want to overcome infidelity you must commit to the work and never ever falter.*
> 
> 
> Can marriages grow stronger after infidelity?
> 
> *Absolutely. Again in my case our marriage is much stronger but it is very different. The innocence of our initial marital encounter ended the day my wife broke her vows. Our new marriage is very honest and open. There is no privacy between us. We spend lots of time together. We communicate much better and never hide our feelings. My wife has indicated on many occasions that what we have now is what she always envisioned marriage to be. However, it came at a huge cost. She also admitted to me that she knows if she is ever unfaithful to me again I will have no problem pulling the plug. She also says that I am much more confident and in control than I was and if we split I would do very well on my own and would have female companionship very quickly. She says it's scary and attractive at the same time.*
> 
> and there's 50 others that are all about the same subject and the above are not in order of their priority or chronological order.
> 
> *Well if you have 50 others I might have to start charging by the hour. *


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> I told my husband that during the affair I did not love him, and didn't think about him much, how could I? I threw him out? I was heartless with my affair, obviously I had no love for him at the time. During R. I slowly got some of it back, I didn't try enough though, we all know that. My love for him has never returned to what it was a year or so ago. It just doesn't come back, or at least not for me. I kept thinking it would get better, and in reality he knew I didn't love him enough, and staying would be painful for him. His love for me was gone as well, too much damage done with the lies.


Working, I don't write this to upset you but complete and brutal honesty is my mantra.

Having said this you still feel there is no way you can salvage your marriage? If what you wrote is true and you understand where it went wrong I don't understand how you can just give up? I'm sorry but I feel like you knew the course you had to take but decided the current was too strong and headed back to port. I wouldn't be able to accept that failure.

I know what you did to your husband was unconscionable but even after that he stayed with you. It seems to me that was a huge gesture that he was willing to let you win him back. I remember when you first started posting you wouldn't even take ownership of your affair. You started to get it but it seems to me that when it came to putting aside your chutzpah and showing remorse you fought it every step of the way. I recall when you were contemplating going back to work instead of asking your husband beforehand how he felt about it (knowing it would be a trigger) you first talked to your workplace and then offered your husband a choice to forbid you to go. That is not good communication and it is also not how you show remorse.

I know you have said that your husband was controlling and verbally abusive. I also know he said that he missed the "shy and meek girl he married." Don't you think you should have swallowed your pride a bit at least long enough to recover from your affair before you tried to show him the newer and stronger willed version of yourself? I only say this because how you describe you and your husband remind me a lot of my wife and me. She was also somewhat laid back and dare I say submissive. She also started to grow as a person and I encouraged her in that (I believe you said your husband encouraged you similarly). After her affair she was very remorseful and she never ever challenged me or even raised her voice; sometimes to her own detriment I might add. But because she submitted to reconciliation (yes I'm using the word submitted here purposefully) she was able to win me back. It was only then that I could really accept her newer stronger self and come to appreciate the good qualities that her new bravado brought to the table. Now when we go out to a restaurant and she does not like where they seat us she will immediately demand that we be moved to the table of her choice. Of course when she does this I am beaming because I know that she is so much more confident and self-aware than she's ever been in the past and it makes me love her more.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> A great marriage is one in which BOTH partners are fully committed to the marriage and their marriage partner. If half of the couple is bad, the marriage itself is bad. There is no such thing as a great marriage between one partner who is faithful and the other who has boundary issues. A marriage isn't an entity, of itself, it is an action. So, you are wrong, Mori....neener, neener neener. LOL


I completely agree with the first half of your statement but a spouse with boundary issues can put safeguards in place to make sure they are not crossed. My wife is a perfect example. Her boundary issues contributed to her affair. During reconciliation she told me that she was opening up her entire life to me and it would stay that way. She concluded that if there was never any secrecy or *gasp* privacy she could never again cross a boundary. She also made sure to never ever speak to any other man unless I initiated the communication and gave her licence to interact. That was the way she addressed her poor boundaries and for 20 years it has worked with us.


----------



## Beowulf

OneMan said:


> Cheating is already giving up. Whether she leaves or stays makes no difference. The damage is already done.


Yes, damage is done but that doesn't have to be the end for the couple. My wife did damage as well but we worked through it. Working's husband gave her an opportunity to work on it as well and I feel like she was too stubborn to take advantage of it. My own opinion.


----------



## Beowulf

OneMan said:


> Wasn't her life supposed to be an open book before her affair, like when you guys were about to be married?
> 
> *We were like many others. When we married we still thought we were entitled to privacy. We learned different.*
> 
> So for years she's been lying to you about who she really was.
> 
> *I think we all tend to represent ourselves in the best possible light, even to our spouses. Sometimes true honesty is ugly. It's learning to love the ugly that is the real challenge of marriage.*
> 
> Now THAT is a perfect example of what a cheater will say so their BS won't leave them.
> 
> *Of course she didn't want me to leave her. I'm awesome. And you're right that she said anything and everything to keep me from doing so. But if she hadn't backed up her words with actions I would have been gone.*
> 
> Easy for her to say that now that she had a taste of another man at your expense.
> 
> *It was just as much at her expense. She had to pay a heavy price for her affair. You'd have to read my story to know that though.*
> 
> It's like a teenage porn addict who just got caught whacking off by his mother. She puts him out the house and afterwards he's making all those promises about how he'll never look at porn again. Just lies in order to stay in good graces.
> 
> *I know she has never faltered because I have never faltered in holding up my end. She doesn't have enough free time to conduct an affair. All her time is accounted for. You don't have to believe that. Only I do and I do.*
> 
> Oh please that is such crap man. Do you really believe she'll NEVER speak to another man again? Doesn't she work for a living? Does she go out and buy groceries sometimes? She'll run into a situation where she'll evidently have to speak to one. It's all just a matter of will she jump in the sack with one of them behind your back again.
> 
> *She does work and I know each and every person she works with. She doesn't go to the store without me. I am always home when she is home. She won't jump in the sack with another man ever again. And if she did we would be done in a nanosecond. She knows that and she knows I would do it. You'd have to live with me to know it also. But then you'd have to die. :rofl:*
> 
> 
> 
> So in the past 20 years she never initiated contact with another man without your permission?
> 
> *No. Not in a social setting. In work most of her colleagues are women. We made sure of that during R. Now is she having a lesbian affair? I suppose she could be having one at work but it would be extremely difficult.*


----------



## Beowulf

OneMan said:


> Even if she did stay with the man he'll still be pissed.


Of course he'll be pissed but that wears off with time and work. You've never been pissed at someone and eventually forgiven them?


----------



## Beowulf

OneMan said:


> It doesn't wear off completely.
> 
> 
> 
> No.


Then we run in different circles and that explains why you can't understand how and why I reconciled with my wife. Different strokes for different folks.

Have a good one.


----------



## warlock07

This thread is spiraling out of control


----------



## Complexity

I always look at people who forgive infidelity (especially a PA) as having saintly mercy. I don't pity them, in a way I wish I could be as forgiving but as Beowulf says, different strokes, for different folks


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> Yes, damage is done but that doesn't have to be the end for the couple. My wife did damage as well but we worked through it. Working's husband gave her an opportunity to work on it as well and I feel like she was too stubborn to take advantage of it. My own opinion.


Stubborn? maybe. I just felt like he wanted so much from me, and I couldn't give it to him. I did try in the way that I could, but I didn't feel like he could ever accept that I had deceived him, and betrayed him so badly. I knew he would never forgive me, and would constantly be wondering if it would happen again. For him, he just couldn't understand that I did this, he's told me that it was so unlike me to do this, the lies, choosing another man over him, it was all too much for him to take. 

He's been a lot calmer since he left, and seems at ease with the decision. I accept it, I guess I just wish we wouldn't have had to endure the crazy past year, I wish that if it was a deal breaker, that he would have ended our marriage on dday. I guess a lot depended on my behavior with R. I was good with being transparent, no privacy etc. I even quit my job. But I couldn't do the rest properly.

Now to find a full-time job.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> This thread is spiraling out of control


I think it's more of a debate over whether some people can ever R. or R in a healthy manner after an affair.

I guess I'm jaded now in that respect. It's a tough one to get over. I wouldn't have just wanted to R. I would have wanted a healthier, happier, marriage. I didn't see that in our future. And quite frankly, how does a couple really become better after such a tragic occurance? maybe if there's a good foundation to work from, I don't know......just saying.


----------



## Badblood

working_together said:


> Stubborn? maybe. I just felt like he wanted so much from me, and I couldn't give it to him. I did try in the way that I could, but I didn't feel like he could ever accept that I had deceived him, and betrayed him so badly. I knew he would never forgive me, and would constantly be wondering if it would happen again. For him, he just couldn't understand that I did this, he's told me that it was so unlike me to do this, the lies, choosing another man over him, it was all too much for him to take.
> 
> He's been a lot calmer since he left, and seems at ease with the decision. I accept it, I guess I just wish we wouldn't have had to endure the crazy past year, I wish that if it was a deal breaker, that he would have ended our marriage on dday. I guess a lot depended on my behavior with R. I was good with being transparent, no privacy etc. I even quit my job. But I couldn't do the rest properly.
> 
> Now to find a full-time job.


This is so sad. Working, you still don't get it , and I doubt if you ever will. Of course you were good about the NC and transparency issues, because you had already realized what a loser the OM was, so , just like you chose him over your husband, you un-chose him, once you found out he was a losing proposition. The hard issues, like integrity, humility and arrogance, you haven't done very well with, have you? IF you had really committed yourself to working on these hard issues, maybe your husband would see that you are a truly changed person, and it would be easier for him to forgive the new, more humble, more honest and more compassionate you. I wonder if you would tell any new love interest about this? I predict a very sad and lonely life for you until you are able to control your pride and selfisness.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Charging????? By the hour?????? LOL, you'd come close to being able to bail out Greece just with pocket money!

I believe I need to answer and have answered some of these questions by myself and reading what others say and think does help a lot. It starts a thought process. I believe that's the purpose of this forum or any other forum. It's not about arguing, it's about learning. LOL, I know things don't always come across as such.

I do know why I cheated, I do know that I want to fix my marriage - no doubt about that at all, I do have boundaries and I know now what they are and I do know that I will not ever cheat again. These are questions I have answered already and I'm very sure of it.

I think that maybe I didn't make myself very clear when I said I have questions. It's not a list of specific questions that can be checked off and put away. 
Example: I said in an ealier post that I loved my husband during the affair. There was never a time in my marriage where I felt I didn't love my husband anymore, therefore I must have loved my husband during the affair. So a ton of people disagreed with me on that. I have to ask myself why and it's not so much about asking if they are wrong but if I am wrong. More questions and there aren't text book answers but a thought process that starts. The thought process would beg the question: what is love and what isn't. I know there is no absolute answer.

My list of questions is answered over time, by reading books, reading this forum, thinking and analyzing. Some I could answer right away and they are checked off.


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> Charging????? By the hour?????? LOL, you'd come close to being able to bail out Greece just with pocket money!
> 
> I believe I need to answer and have answered some of these questions by myself and reading what others say and think does help a lot. It starts a thought process. I believe that's the purpose of this forum or any other forum. It's not about arguing, it's about learning. LOL, I know things don't always come across as such.
> 
> I do know why I cheated, I do know that I want to fix my marriage - no doubt about that at all, I do have boundaries and I know now what they are and I do know that I will not ever cheat again. These are questions I have answered already and I'm very sure of it.
> 
> I think that maybe I didn't make myself very clear when I said I have questions. It's not a list of specific questions that can be checked off and put away.
> Example: I said in an ealier post that I loved my husband during the affair. There was never a time in my marriage where I felt I didn't love my husband anymore, therefore I must have loved my husband during the affair. So a ton of people disagreed with me on that. I have to ask myself why and it's not so much about asking if they are wrong but if I am wrong. More questions and there aren't text book answers but a thought process that starts. The thought process would beg the question: what is love and what isn't. I know there is no absolute answer.
> 
> My list of questions is answered over time, by reading books, reading this forum, thinking and analyzing. Some I could answer right away and they are checked off.


BTW Forty, I replied to your msg. I hope you received it.


----------



## Badblood

Fourty, I'm no guru, and don't know what love is for everybody, but I have a pretty good idea about what it isn't. It isn't selfish, deceitful, prideful, disrespectful, cruel, or demeaning. If you were doing any of those things, then , no, you didn't love your husband during the EA. The sooner you and him can come to terms with that, the better are your chances for a new and more secure marriage.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> BTW Forty, I replied to your msg. I hope you received it.


Yes, I did and replied. Takes me longer to reply at times.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Badblood said:


> Fourty, I'm no guru, and don't know what love is for everybody, but I have a pretty good idea about what it isn't. It isn't selfish, deceitful, prideful, disrespectful, cruel, or demeaning. If you were doing any of those things, then , no, you didn't love your husband during the EA. The sooner you and him can come to terms with that, the better are your chances for a new and more secure marriage.


I know I feel much different about him now than I did before and during the affair. I can't put it into words really. What I feel now is a lot deeper, stronger, clearer, straight forward, non complicated. It's with him in mind first, not me having my needs fulfilled. I gotta think about this some more, I'm at loss for words.


----------



## Beowulf

Working,

I have followed your story with great interest because as I said you and your husband remind me of my wife and I. That said I'm going to write a post here with information that I have gleaned from your various threads and posts. Understand that if I am misinterpreting anything it is because of how it was presented to the forum.

You said you got married when you were very young. You also said you started off as a "shy and meek girl." It is very likely then that in the beginning of your marriage you pretty much let your husband make most of the decisions. He probably decided where you would go out to eat. How much money was spent and on what. What you would be doing as a couple on the weekends. In other words he was the primary decision maker and you were content with letting him do that because as you said you were shy and meek. What you probably don't realize is that your husband would have appreciated some help and input from you but he took that burden on because someone had to and you obviously weren't capable or willing to do so.

At some point you began to feel that you needed to assert yourself. Instead of appreciating that your husband was taking on so much responsibility you started looking at his as being controlling. Instead of going to him and communicating your need for input, instead of apologizing for not helping him previously, you chose to begin to wrench control away from your husband. In effect you destabilized the relationship and more than likely since you have admitted that your communication skills were lacking you never explained to him why you felt the way you did. He was probably very confused and hurt by your actions and most likely when you pushed he did what would naturally occur to him to do...he pushed back. You in effect started a power struggle in your marriage.

This probably went on for some time. You push and he pushed until at some point you both got frustrated with each other. You more than likely started making decisions without talking to him because when you did you always argued. You both gradually began to grow apart until you had very independent lives from each other. You then began to lob love busters at each other (disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, selfish demands) until finally your husband gave up and began letting you have your way all the time ("do what you want, you will anyway).

Gradually as you got your way more and more you started seeing your husband as unworthy. His value to you as a man was slowly eroding in your mind. After all how can you respect a man that continually acquiesces to his wife's unreasonable demands? And how can you be attracted to a man that you don't respect? It was then that you began fitness testing him. Now don't go saying you don't fitness test. Every woman in the world does. Your husband, already worn down by your constant barrages of demands and not accustomed to being fitness tested failed test after test. His value and worthiness diminished even further.

Along comes an alpha male. He has a physical job. It seems like he knows what he wants and takes it. You are immediately attracted to him. You may not even realize why. But to you he is everything your husband is not. He exhibits all the qualities that you admire. All the qualities that you squashed out of your husband. You begin an affair. You lie to your husband time and time again. He trusts you and believes you. His value goes down even more. After all how stupid can he be? An affair going on right under his nose and he actually believes you when you lie. He must be a dolt and an unworthy mate. You then do what you think you should to something in your life that is unworthy to be there. You discard it. You throw him out of his own home.

After a while something clicks. You realize that something is not right with this situation. You go back and forth for a while but eventually you ALLOW your husband to move back into the home. He gives you an opportunity to fix your marriage. Despite all you've done to him he gives you an opportunity to win him back. You open your secrets to him in order to assure him that you aren't having an affair anymore. You tell him that you love him. But in your heart you know you don't. After all this man allowed you to completely take over when he should have been standing up for himself. This man allowed you to throw him out of his own house when it should have been you who left. This man chose to forgive you for letting another man have sex with you in HIS house. This is the man you made. This is the man you seemed to want. You cannot love this man.

Eventually he sees that your efforts at reconciliation are half-hearted. You can't let go of your pride. You can't set your stubbornness aside. You can't submit to this shell of a man you call your husband, the man you created. He knows you aren't really remorseful. He knows you don't really love him. During a counseling session you hear the words "verbal abuse" and you seize upon those words in order to put an end to the sham of a reconciliation you are in. You once again discard your husband for not being worthy of you. You use the verbal abuse excuse because that way it's not really all your fault. That way you can convince yourself you aren't really a bad person. But in your heart you know the truth. You planted the seeds. You watered them. You nurtured them. And you harvested them.

Working, I don't say all of this to hurt you although it probably will. You are no doubt going to say I don't know you. I don't know the whole story. I don't really know what you've been through. And you're right, I don't. All I know is what you've posted and from those posts I have come to see your marriage and probable divorce in these terms. I don't say this to make you angry. I say this to make your see what has probably occurred in your marriage. I say this because you need to realize the real part you've played in your dying relationship. I say this because regardless of what happens between you and your husband, if you do not seek IC Badblood's prediction of a lonely life for you will come to pass.


----------



## working_together

Badblood said:


> This is so sad. Working, you still don't get it , and I doubt if you ever will. Of course you were good about the NC and transparency issues, because you had already realized what a loser the OM was, so , just like you chose him over your husband, you un-chose him, once you found out he was a losing proposition. The hard issues, like integrity, humility and arrogance, you haven't done very well with, have you? IF you had really committed yourself to working on these hard issues, maybe your husband would see that you are a truly changed person, and it would be easier for him to forgive the new, more humble, more honest and more compassionate you. I wonder if you would tell any new love interest about this? I predict a very sad and lonely life for you until you are able to control your pride and selfisness.


I understand what you are saying, and agree with it. First, I knew he really wouldn't ever forgive me, no matter how my behavior had changed. And I wasn't walking around like a B anyway, I was trying in a lot of ways, no, not enough. I didn't commit myself the way I should have, I lost a lot of love for him in the months prior to my affair. I never said I am perfect. My husband did not want to see even the small changes, he was very angry with me, and could not get past the lies, how I cried and told him it was the truth, but there was more. I trickled truth a lot.

I don't think I am the same person as I was during the affair, I don't think I am the same as before either. I've had to really look at what made me to such horrible things. I never thought in a million years that I would cheat on my husband, and cheat with a married man. It's a lot to deal with, but I also need to live my life, and carry on as well (with help).

Would I tell my future partner of my previous affair? Yep, I would never want them to find out through other people, I would not want there to be any secrets. I did not have secrets in my marriage up to a year ago (25 years), I wasn't that type of person before. It would be up to them to decide to move forward with me or not after knowing that.

Maybe I will be the little old lady down the street with the fly away grey hair, and a trail of cats following her.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> Charging????? By the hour?????? LOL, you'd come close to being able to bail out Greece just with pocket money!
> 
> I believe I need to answer and have answered some of these questions by myself and reading what others say and think does help a lot. It starts a thought process. I believe that's the purpose of this forum or any other forum. It's not about arguing, it's about learning. LOL, I know things don't always come across as such.
> 
> I do know why I cheated, I do know that I want to fix my marriage - no doubt about that at all, I do have boundaries and I know now what they are and I do know that I will not ever cheat again. These are questions I have answered already and I'm very sure of it.
> 
> I think that maybe I didn't make myself very clear when I said I have questions. It's not a list of specific questions that can be checked off and put away.
> Example: I said in an ealier post that I loved my husband during the affair. There was never a time in my marriage where I felt I didn't love my husband anymore, therefore I must have loved my husband during the affair. So a ton of people disagreed with me on that. I have to ask myself why and it's not so much about asking if they are wrong but if I am wrong. More questions and there aren't text book answers but a thought process that starts. The thought process would beg the question: what is love and what isn't. I know there is no absolute answer.
> 
> My list of questions is answered over time, by reading books, reading this forum, thinking and analyzing. Some I could answer right away and they are checked off.


I think it's just hard for people to understand how could someone love their spouse and betray them at the same time. I even have trouble with that. I couldn't have cheated if I had loved my husband at the time. I told myself that I was done with him, and ready to move on (at the time). I wanted my marriage over, and asked H to leave. I cared about him, but not love. When we R I still didn't have the love that I should have, I thought I could feel that again, but I know it's just not there, and it played the most crucial role in our R. Had he known I really loved him he may have been more willing to forgive me. He told me that it was "more than affair", he believes I was done with the marriage, and that hurts him.


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> Working,
> 
> I have followed your story with great interest because as I said you and your husband remind me of my wife and I. That said I'm going to write a post here with information that I have gleaned from your various threads and posts. Understand that if I am misinterpreting anything it is because of how it was presented to the forum.
> 
> You said you got married when you were very young. You also said you started off as a "shy and meek girl." It is very likely then that in the beginning of your marriage you pretty much let your husband make most of the decisions. He probably decided where you would go out to eat. How much money was spent and on what. What you would be doing as a couple on the weekends. In other words he was the primary decision maker and you were content with letting him do that because as you said you were shy and meek. What you probably don't realize is that your husband would have appreciated some help and input from you but he took that burden on because someone had to and you obviously weren't capable or willing to do so.
> 
> At some point you began to feel that you needed to assert yourself. Instead of appreciating that your husband was taking on so much responsibility you started looking at his as being controlling. Instead of going to him and communicating your need for input, instead of apologizing for not helping him previously, you chose to begin to wrench control away from your husband. In effect you destabilized the relationship and more than likely since you have admitted that your communication skills were lacking you never explained to him why you felt the way you did. He was probably very confused and hurt by your actions and most likely when you pushed he did what would naturally occur to him to do...he pushed back. You in effect started a power struggle in your marriage.
> 
> This probably went on for some time. You push and he pushed until at some point you both got frustrated with each other. You more than likely started making decisions without talking to him because when you did you always argued. You both gradually began to grow apart until you had very independent lives from each other. You then began to lob love busters at each other (disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, selfish demands) until finally your husband gave up and began letting you have your way all the time ("do what you want, you will anyway).
> 
> Gradually as you got your way more and more you started seeing your husband as unworthy. His value to you as a man was slowly eroding in your mind. After all how can you respect a man that continually acquiesces to his wife's unreasonable demands? And how can you be attracted to a man that you don't respect? It was then that you began fitness testing him. Now don't go saying you don't fitness test. Every woman in the world does. Your husband, already worn down by your constant barrages of demands and not accustomed to being fitness tested failed test after test. His value and worthiness diminished even further.
> 
> Along comes an alpha male. He has a physical job. It seems like he knows what he wants and takes it. You are immediately attracted to him. You may not even realize why. But to you he is everything your husband is not. He exhibits all the qualities that you admire. All the qualities that you squashed out of your husband. You begin an affair. You lie to your husband time and time again. He trusts you and believes you. His value goes down even more. After all how stupid can he be? An affair going on right under his nose and he actually believes you when you lie. He must be a dolt and an unworthy mate. You then do what you think you should to something in your life that is unworthy to be there. You discard it. You throw him out of his own home.
> 
> After a while something clicks. You realize that something is not right with this situation. You go back and forth for a while but eventually you ALLOW your husband to move back into the home. He gives you an opportunity to fix your marriage. Despite all you've done to him he gives you an opportunity to win him back. You open your secrets to him in order to assure him that you aren't having an affair anymore. You tell him that you love him. But in your heart you know you don't. After all this man allowed you to completely take over when he should have been standing up for himself. This man allowed you to throw him out of his own house when it should have been you who left. This man chose to forgive you for letting another man have sex with you in HIS house. This is the man you made. This is the man you seemed to want. You cannot love this man.
> 
> Eventually he sees that your efforts at reconciliation are half-hearted. You can't let go of your pride. You can't set your stubbornness aside. You can't submit to this shell of a man you call your husband, the man you created. He knows you aren't really remorseful. He knows you don't really love him. During a counseling session you hear the words "verbal abuse" and you seize upon those words in order to put an end to the sham of a reconciliation you are in. You once again discard your husband for not being worthy of you. You use the verbal abuse excuse because that way it's not really all your fault. That way you can convince yourself you aren't really a bad person. But in your heart you know the truth. You planted the seeds. You watered them. You nurtured them. And you harvested them.
> 
> Working, I don't say all of this to hurt you although it probably will. You are no doubt going to say I don't know you. I don't know the whole story. I don't really know what you've been through. And you're right, I don't. All I know is what you've posted and from those posts I have come to see your marriage and probable divorce in these terms. I don't say this to make you angry. I say this to make your see what has probably occurred in your marriage. I say this because you need to realize the real part you've played in your dying relationship. I say this because regardless of what happens between you and your husband, if you do not seek IC Badblood's prediction of a lonely life for you will come to pass.


That's quite an analysis you have there!!!!

Some of it is true, some not at all. It seems as though because I had an affair, the whole 25 years of problems is my fault?? hardly. We both contributed to the problems.

The verbal/emotional abuse was always there, it was very subtle until the past year. There was a lot of manipulation, and not allowing me to express my feelings or thoughts. I didn't run into a therapist and the word popped out of him. I had been looking at his behavior, and things from the past came to mind. I'm not using this as an excuse, women don't just say these things, people aren't very educated in abuse, and see it as physical only.

You're right about the affair, and the lack of love I had for him. I am remorseful, I just can't be with him. If I wasn't remorseful I would see a lawyer today and make sure that I received financial support for my two younger kids. I would go to social aid and have his salary garnished. I choose not to do that, I chose to suffer with no money, and not much of a job right now. He is setting up his own place, and cannot give any money for months, if I was a real B. I could force him to. I told him that I am sorry for what I did, and that I'll make it on my own. I ask that he pay for one thing, my daughter's day camp this Summer. Is that too much? I'm allowing him to take anything he wants from our place, towels, sheets, dishes, etc. I would have left my home, but it's my mom's place, and I care for her physical needs as she lives below me. I couldn't do that to her. H wanted to leave, he said there were too many bad memories here anyway, he's right about that. Don't say I'm not remorseful, I feel like crap for what I've done to him, and I may not have been able to R the way it should have been, but that was because of the lack of love I had, not because I wasn't remorseful. I'm doing my best now to makes sure he suffers as little stress as possible.

Btw, I was attracted to OM because he listened to me, and didn't judge what I said. He was no prize, believe me, looks aren't everything.


----------



## working_together

OneMan said:


> Nobody said it was all your fault but it seems you're using that as an excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> Another blameshifting tactic.
> 
> 
> 
> You think the judge is going to automatically give you money? Pffttt
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: You honestly think you have so much control over that man's life that with a simple snap of your finger you can have what you want. Sadly that will never be the case.
> 
> That's not his fault that you choose not to work.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't force him to do anything he doesn't want to do. This is the situation you chose for yourself. You chose to have an affair behind his back, and this is the consequence.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't you pay for it? Are you looking for a job instead of bothering him about what can he do for you? It's no wonder he left.
> 
> 
> 
> So far this is anything but remorse. You still have an entitlement mindset, and think he's supposed to break his back for you time and time again. If anyone is being abused here, it's him.
> 
> 
> 
> You wanted him for yourself, not because of what your husband lacked.


I guess you can interpret my postings however you wish, I refuse to get angry about it. My life is what it is, you can chose to believe or not believe. You can see what I say as blameshifting...your choice. I'm sorry you are bitter, or angry, really I feel for your pain in what has happened to you.

I don't badger my H for money, you interpreted that on your own. H didn't want me to work, he told me that my boundaries with men were to poor. So yeah, now, I'm job hunting, I can only do so much. What exactly do you think a spouse's responsibility is towards offering some financial support towards their children? I'm curious, really? It sounds like you're saying "you had the affair, and tough on you and the kids".


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> That's quite an analysis you have there!!!!
> 
> Some of it is true, some not at all. It seems as though because I had an affair, the whole 25 years of problems is my fault?? hardly. We both contributed to the problems.
> 
> The verbal/emotional abuse was always there, it was very subtle until the past year. There was a lot of manipulation, and not allowing me to express my feelings or thoughts. I didn't run into a therapist and the word popped out of him. I had been looking at his behavior, and things from the past came to mind. I'm not using this as an excuse, women don't just say these things, people aren't very educated in abuse, and see it as physical only.
> 
> You're right about the affair, and the lack of love I had for him. I am remorseful, I just can't be with him. If I wasn't remorseful I would see a lawyer today and make sure that I received financial support for my two younger kids. I would go to social aid and have his salary garnished. I choose not to do that, I chose to suffer with no money, and not much of a job right now. He is setting up his own place, and cannot give any money for months, if I was a real B. I could force him to. I told him that I am sorry for what I did, and that I'll make it on my own. I ask that he pay for one thing, my daughter's day camp this Summer. Is that too much? I'm allowing him to take anything he wants from our place, towels, sheets, dishes, etc. I would have left my home, but it's my mom's place, and I care for her physical needs as she lives below me. I couldn't do that to her. H wanted to leave, he said there were too many bad memories here anyway, he's right about that. Don't say I'm not remorseful, I feel like crap for what I've done to him, and I may not have been able to R the way it should have been, but that was because of the lack of love I had, not because I wasn't remorseful. I'm doing my best now to makes sure he suffers as little stress as possible.
> 
> Btw, I was attracted to OM because he listened to me, and didn't judge what I said. He was no prize, believe me, looks aren't everything.


I'm not saying that 25 years of marital problems are your fault. If your husband were here I would tell him where I thought he erred. But he isn't and you are. So this is where I think you went wrong. If you go back and look at your posts you will see how I came to the conclusions I did. I'm sorry but when you say this happened just this year or didn't become apparent until recently you are deluding yourself. By your own admission and words you changed and began asserting yourself. Your posts about how you presented things to your husband show that you tended to dictate not negotiate. You just don't learn that overnight. You gradually took control and created a power struggle. Again, look at your posts. What you call abuse your husband might call a reality check. I would call it a Love Buster and I have no doubt that it was on both sides. If your husband came on here and offered his perspective I no doubt believe that it would be the polar opposite of yours. That said, I think what I wrote would fall somewhere in the middle and that is usually where the truth lies.

BTW, vindictiveness and remorse are two totally different things. Assuaging your guilt by not asking for much is not remorse. Look at what you wrote and show me how that is remorse.

As to the OM, I never said he was good looking or a prize. I said he was alpha. If you don't know the meaning I would suggest you start reading up on the term. He knew what he wanted and knew how to get it. He listened to you so that he could have sex with you. In the singles world it's called GAME and he manipulated you, not your husband.


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> H didn't want me to work, he told me that my boundaries with men were to poor.


I guess he was correct wasn't he.


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> I guess he was correct wasn't he.


He said that after the affair, not prior. I think my boundaries got better after the affair, It's not like I have any contact with men, and I don't want to.


----------



## working_together

OneMan said:


> Nobody is angry at you, although you DO seem to be pissed at your own husband, who you damaged. Don't blame others for your choices you made on your own.
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you said. You complain to him about your daughter's summer program. He's not a bank.
> 
> 
> 
> Shame. He had to watch over you like a toddler. That's no way to live.
> 
> 
> 
> Both parents do the job of providing financial support instead of badgering the other for money, especially after they had an affair. If I were him I would've never moved out. Get a part-time job or something. You say he just got his own place, right? Well obviously he can't pay for the program right now so it's your responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> It's what I AM saying.


Wow.


----------



## working_together

I think I'm going to change my avatar again......hmmmm. What to put? Any ideas?

There's a lot of tension on this thread, I don't mind a good debate, and I will always admit when I am wrong, I have owned a lot of sh*t in the last few months. I'm trying to do the best I can in my life, I don't think I have the "entitled" feeling some of you might think I have. I always get so harshly judged here, what up with that? I'm not here to always defend my self...sheesh, gimme a break sometimes.


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## FourtyPlus

What's fitness testing?????


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## FourtyPlus

working_together said:


> I think I'm going to change my avatar again......hmmmm. What to put? Any ideas?
> 
> There's a lot of tension on this thread, I don't mind a good debate, and I will always admit when I am wrong, I have owned a lot of sh*t in the last few months. I'm trying to do the best I can in my life, I don't think I have the "entitled" feeling some of you might think I have. I always get so harshly judged here, what up with that? I'm not here to always defend my self...sheesh, gimme a break sometimes.


The trick is to use the ignore button, then you don't have to bother with the flamers. You can also just skip over the posts that you know aren't worth reading. This way you only read the good, constructive posts that help you grow, move forward and move on. The ones that are meant to help.


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## Beowulf

Working, I want you to know that I had thought about posting what I did for many days after you said that your marriage was over. I debated with myself and finally decided to post it because for the last 20 years my mantra has been honesty even if it hurts. I want you to know that I posted out of concern for you and for your husband. As I said you guys remind me a lot of my wife and I and maybe your story and reconciliation failure did indeed touch a nerve. My wife did everything she could to win me back. There was never any hesitation in her. I was not the greatest husband prior to her affair but I think right now I am an awesome husband. But it only happened because she was able to humble herself post D-Day. When I would trigger and yell at her she NEVER EVER yelled back. When I was hurting she was right there by my side without hesitation. She wouldn't even think of doing something without asking me first how it would affect me.

When you told your husband that you were going to go back to work and his response was "go ahead, you'll do what you want anyway" that told me a lot. During R my wife would never have put me in that position. And if she had a brain vacation and had accepted work without talking to me first I would have responded by telling her to go call her boss and explain that she accepted the job without consulting her husband first. That she had apologized and made a mistake and had to discuss it first before making that decision. Would you have made that phone call? My wife would have because our marriage was the most important thing to her. The fact that your husband responded with "you'll do what you want anyway" tells me he was beaten down. It tells me that you had been riding roughshod over him for some time. You can deny it but that's what I think.

As time went on my wife and I learned to work with each other o our marriage in better ways. As my trust in her grew I was able to forgive a little more each day. In turn I was able to appreciate the stronger more confident woman she became. But it was only because she put everything on herself. Did I have faults prior to her affair. Damned straight I did. But all that had to be set aside until she won me back. It was only then that I could find the strength to work on myself as well. After all, I was a broken man after D-Day. I wasn't emotionally able to fix anything then.

After all you did to your husband he gave you a second chance. In my opinion you blew it big time. And if you seem to be judged harshly I would like to suggest it is because from the tone of your posts most BS can see that you really haven't shown remorse and you've only owned your sh*t up to a point.

I still wish you all the best but I had to get that off my chest.


----------



## Badblood

Beowulf, your wife sounds like a "keeper", to me. If my wife had even attempted as much, maybe I would have considered R. Working, every time I begin to have some sympathy for you, you post something that turns my concern to contempt. BTW, I agree with Beowulf 100%. Look at your post in response to his. I told, I am allowing, I could force, I choose, I chose, etc, etc, etc. Look how many times you say "I", and how few times you said "we", in all of your posts. Right now, you are feeling guilty, and all you are doing is attempting to assuage your own guilt feelings. Telling us about how you choose to be poor, to spare your husband. How noble of you, how saintly. How you constantly remind us of his supposed "verbal abuse", Which you and I both know isn't factual. You are trying to make yourself feel better at his expense, yet again. You are only thinking of yourself.......please be honest about that. If you can get past your selfishness, you have a chance at a better future. GET IC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!! WE are trying to HELP you, stop making excuses, and try to understand. I don't hate you and neither do most of the other posters, but we cannot and will not be schmoozed. AS for your husband, he is to blame for niether the affair nor how bad you have treated him all these years. Feel HIS pain, and realize how un-worthy you are. I truly hope that someday you can, because it is your only hope.


----------



## warlock07

Crap!! Made a pretty long post but lost it!!

Essentially my take is that Working and her H concentrated too much on the infidelity part during the R and ignored the actual problems and dysfunctionality in the marriage that led to the affair. Remorse for the affair can only take you so far in fixing the actual problems of the marriage. After two months, the problems resurfaced and with either parties feeling hard done by the other(Esp. Working due to the MC, all the old resentments surfaced)


----------



## warlock07

working_together said:


> I think I'm going to change my avatar again......hmmmm. What to put? Any ideas?
> 
> There's a lot of tension on this thread, I don't mind a good debate, and I will always admit when I am wrong, I have owned a lot of sh*t in the last few months. I'm trying to do the best I can in my life, I don't think I have the "entitled" feeling some of you might think I have. I always get so harshly judged here, what up with that? I'm not here to always defend my self...sheesh, gimme a break sometimes.


Your cat?the one that died recently.


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## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Your cat?the one that died recently.


Yeah, was thinking of putting him up in his younger days, he caught a crow one time lol.

I'll work on it.


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## working_together

Badblood said:


> Beowulf, your wife sounds like a "keeper", to me. If my wife had even attempted as much, maybe I would have considered R. Working, every time I begin to have some sympathy for you, you post something that turns my concern to contempt. BTW, I agree with Beowulf 100%. Look at your post in response to his. I told, I am allowing, I could force, I choose, I chose, etc, etc, etc. Look how many times you say "I", and how few times you said "we", in all of your posts. Right now, you are feeling guilty, and all you are doing is attempting to assuage your own guilt feelings. Telling us about how you choose to be poor, to spare your husband. How noble of you, how saintly. How you constantly remind us of his supposed "verbal abuse", Which you and I both know isn't factual. You are trying to make yourself feel better at his expense, yet again. You are only thinking of yourself.......please be honest about that. If you can get past your selfishness, you have a chance at a better future. GET IC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!! WE are trying to HELP you, stop making excuses, and try to understand. I don't hate you and neither do most of the other posters, but we cannot and will not be schmoozed. AS for your husband, he is to blame for niether the affair nor how bad you have treated him all these years. Feel HIS pain, and realize how un-worthy you are. I truly hope that someday you can, because it is your only hope.


I'm still going to I/C, don't worry. I'm not as messed up as it appears through my posts. Most of it is venting, like I said before, it's a type of journal writing for me, but with the odd feedback here and there.


----------



## Beowulf

warlock07 said:


> Crap!! Made a pretty long post but lost it!!
> 
> Essentially my take is that Working and her H concentrated too much on the infidelity part during the R and ignored the actual problems and dysfunctionality in the marriage that led to the affair. Remorse for the affair can only take you so far in fixing the actual problems of the marriage. After two months, the problems resurfaced and with either parties feeling hard done by the other(Esp. Working due to the MC, all the old resentments surfaced)


See I disagree. I don't believe working was really remorseful. Did she feel guilty...yes. Did she want to assure her husband that the affair was over...yes. Did she do everything necessary to build her husband back up after tearing him down so much. No.

Regret = words, remorse = action. Until she *showed remorse* instead of *expressing regret* she couldn't get past her affair enough to start dealing with their marital issues. Badblood is right. She has too many I's in her posts and not nearly enough we's or him's.

Ironically it was Badblood's post that prompted me to finally write what I felt. Working. I *don't* want you to be alone. I *don't* want you to the the old woman with the wild grey hair and many cats. I *do* want you to be happy.


----------



## lascarx

Beowulf said:


> Along comes an alpha male. He has a physical job. It seems like he knows what he wants and takes it. You are immediately attracted to him. You may not even realize why. But to you he is everything your husband is not. He exhibits all the qualities that you admire.


I have to say that I see this alpha stuff as a pile of nonsense.

I never had much time to go to the gym, but I've earned my living most of my adult life doing work that you'd have a mule do if mules weren't just that bit short of brains for it. At the fair, I always managed to ring the bell three times and win my wife a kewpie, no problem.

Can't say much about decision-making because we pretty much agreed on things, but looking back, oftentimes when I had an opinion, I was the one who spoke and that was that. I don't say that was good, I don't really know if it was good or not, but it does seem like what a lot of people would call being an alpha husband.

Every so often I'd have to deal with some stuck-up shift runner, male or female, who would run me down for no reason. Never bothered me much, I just figured he or she had had a bad day. I was always right, it's not like anyone ever kept after me. So I had no frustrations to bring home, no whining to unload. We knew we were probably going to owe until we were old but it's not like that made us different from anyone else for twenty miles around.

I could name a bunch of qualities that I certainly don't have, but as far as I can tell, I think I was pretty much alpha, though I never thought in those terms. And it did me not one bit of good in the end, I got cheated on as bad as anyone ever did.

My guess is that some people are not wired for marital fidelity. And those people are simply going to get bored with what they have, whatever it is, and go for something else.


----------



## Complexity

I think by the time the affair happened, working fell out of love with her husband and was actually taken back by the fact he didn't immediatley seek a divorce, something she veritably would've welcomed. 

What we may interpret as blame shifting are to her legitimate grievances that slowly eroded the relationship she had with him and to a degree _explains_, not excuses the affair. In principle, working is remorseful as cheating is presumably out of character and she feels guilty for hurting her husband, however she doesn't see this as her fault primarily and to some extent expected her husband to be remorseful for leading her to this which I guess explains why she was horrible to him post d day. 

I guess it's hard to show genuine remorse if you've grown to resent your partner and didn't want mere reconciliation but instead a complete do over of the marriage for which both parties will take equal responsibility. Consequently she wasn't comfortable with the fact the reconciliation process was all about him which she sees as the cause of all of this coupled with the fact she couldn't handle his triggers........it wasn't really fertile ground for reconciliation.

Here on TAM we expect the WS to take the helm in mending the relationship because the BS is usually a doormat by the time the affair happened and is generally a good spouse, but I suppose the same dynamics can't be applied with working's marriage. She I guess became worn out by the years of emotional abuse that were her own triggers every time her husband triggered and so she had a level of apathy about this whole thing.


----------



## warlock07

I think fidelity is a conscious decision made by choice. We are not naturally wired for it.


----------



## Beowulf

lascarx said:


> I have to say that I see this alpha stuff as a pile of nonsense.
> 
> I never had much time to go to the gym, but I've earned my living most of my adult life doing work that you'd have a mule do if mules weren't just that bit short of brains for it. At the fair, I always managed to ring the bell three times and win my wife a kewpie, no problem.
> 
> Can't say much about decision-making because we pretty much agreed on things, but looking back, oftentimes when I had an opinion, I was the one who spoke and that was that. I don't say that was good, I don't really know if it was good or not, but it does seem like what a lot of people would call being an alpha husband.
> 
> Every so often I'd have to deal with some stuck-up shift runner, male or female, who would run me down for no reason. Never bothered me much, I just figured he or she had had a bad day. I was always right, it's not like anyone ever kept after me. So I had no frustrations to bring home, no whining to unload. We knew we were probably going to owe until we were old but it's not like that made us different from anyone else for twenty miles around.
> 
> I could name a bunch of qualities that I certainly don't have, but as far as I can tell, I think I was pretty much alpha, though I never thought in those terms. And it did me not one bit of good in the end, I got cheated on as bad as anyone ever did.
> 
> My guess is that some people are not wired for marital fidelity. And those people are simply going to get bored with what they have, whatever it is, and go for something else.


I agree. Everyone's situation is different. I was simply providing my opinion about the situation from what I read in working's posts. I've followed working's situation from the beginning with great interest and that's how I saw it.


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## Tall Average Guy

lascarx said:


> I have to say that I see this alpha stuff as a pile of nonsense.
> 
> * * * * *
> 
> I could name a bunch of qualities that I certainly don't have, but as far as I can tell, I think I was pretty much alpha, though I never thought in those terms. And it did me not one bit of good in the end, I got cheated on as bad as anyone ever did.
> 
> My guess is that some people are not wired for marital fidelity. And those people are simply going to get bored with what they have, whatever it is, and go for something else.


This assumes that a woman will only seek an affair with an alpha. Not all do. I can think of at least one poster here who was all alpha, and his wife's AP was very beta. She was seeking out something she was missing (albeit in an incredibly hurtful way).

Most women want a partner with both alpha and beta characteristics. Too little of either creates problems, but in particular too little alpha risks issues with infidelity. A "beta" male does not have the boundaries to stand up for themselves and risks a wife who does not respect them. This is a scenario ripe for cheating.

However, that is not the only reason people cheat, just a common one. As you note, there are some people who are not wired for fidelity or are just fundamentally broken.


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## lascarx

Tall Average Guy said:


> Most women want a partner with both alpha and beta characteristics. Too little of either creates problems, but in particular too little alpha risks issues with infidelity. A "beta" male does not have the boundaries to stand up for themselves and risks a wife who does not respect them. This is a scenario ripe for cheating.


I think we men also want our women to be strong in some things and soft in others. It's just natural to want that mixture that makes for a loving, content human being. I think that this borrowing of "alpha and beta" from the animal kingdom is psychoblather with which hucksters make simple truths sound complex, in order to sell more make-yourself-attractive books. Just my opinion.


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## Tall Average Guy

lascarx said:


> I think we men also want our women to be strong in some things and soft in others. It's just natural to want that mixture that makes for a loving, content human being. I think that this borrowing of "alpha and beta" from the animal kingdom is psychoblather with which hucksters make simple truths sound complex, in order to sell more make-yourself-attractive books. Just my opinion.


That could well be. Does not make it any less true or useful in explaining the concept to others. Certainly does not make it a pile of nonsense either. What is a simple truth to you may well be incredibly insightful information to another. I certainly won't dismiss it or degrade it just because it is information I am already aware of. Of course, that is my opinion and your milage may vary.


----------



## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> I think by the time the affair happened, working fell out of love with her husband and was actually taken back by the fact he didn't immediatley seek a divorce, something she veritably would've welcomed.
> 
> What we may interpret as blame shifting are to her legitimate grievances that slowly eroded the relationship she had with him and to a degree _explains_, not excuses the affair. In principle, working is remorseful as cheating is presumably out of character and she feels guilty for hurting her husband, however she doesn't see this as her fault primarily and to some extent expected her husband to be remorseful for leading her to this which I guess explains why she was horrible to him post d day.
> 
> I guess it's hard to show genuine remorse if you've grown to resent your partner and didn't want mere reconciliation but instead a complete do over of the marriage for which both parties will take equal responsibility. Consequently she wasn't comfortable with the fact the reconciliation process was all about him which she sees as the cause of all of this coupled with the fact she couldn't handle his triggers........it wasn't really fertile ground for reconciliation.
> 
> Here on TAM we expect the WS to take the helm in mending the relationship because the BS is usually a doormat by the time the affair happened and is generally a good spouse, but I suppose the same dynamics can't be applied with working's marriage. She I guess became worn out by the years of emotional abuse that were her own triggers every time her husband triggered and so she had a level of apathy about this whole thing.


You see to me that just means that there were opportunities to work on the marriage before the affair occurred but for some reason or another it never happened. I also disagree with you that there was abuse before the affair occurred. By working's own admission this only happened in the last year or so and that time period was during the reconciliation. In your scenario working's affair would be an exit affair and that rather then choose to end the marriage in an honorable way she chose to try to drive her husband toward divorce by having sex with another man. I give working a lot more credit than that and feel that she is a moral person at heart but just couldn't put her pride aside enough to heal her husband from the affair so that the real work on the marriage could begin.


----------



## CruxAve

lascarx said:


> I have to say that I see this alpha stuff as a pile of nonsense.
> 
> I could name a bunch of qualities that I certainly don't have, but as far as I can tell, I think I was pretty much alpha, though I never thought in those terms. And it did me not one bit of good in the end, I got cheated on as bad as anyone ever did.
> 
> My guess is that some people are not wired for marital fidelity. And those people are simply going to get bored with what they have, whatever it is, and go for something else.


I wouldn't say it's nonsense. It is most likely those alpha qualities that got your wife liking you from the get go. However, "alphaness" doesn't prevent infidelity. You're right. Some people get bored and seek something new and exciting elsewhere. Pure selfishness.


----------



## Complexity

Beowulf said:


> You see to me that just means that there were opportunities to work on the marriage before the affair occurred but for some reason or another it never happened. I also disagree with you that there was abuse before the affair occurred. By working's own admission this only happened in the last year or so and that time period was during the reconciliation. In your scenario working's affair would be an exit affair and that rather then choose to end the marriage in an honorable way she chose to try to drive her husband toward divorce by having sex with another man. I give working a lot more credit than that and feel that she is a moral person at heart but just couldn't put her pride aside enough to heal her husband from the affair so that the real work on the marriage could begin.


In hindsight we can all say we could've done this, we could've done that, but we don't live in hindsight and it's up to them to decide why they didn't work on their issues but the fundamental fact is, the problems were present when the affair occurred. From what I've read, the emotional abuse has been going on throughout their entire marriage just more subtle than overt. I think right before the affair happened she felt neglected and personally thought the marriage was over. His triggers brought everything out in the open and made her realise what she always tolerated I guess. 

I think this is a bigger issue than pride because pride would've made her file for divorce. In my opinion this was a complete marital breakdown in which she, not her husband saw only one party to blame. I don't know if you'd term it as an exit affair but I do think she wanted to fix the marriage but that solely depended on her husband. 



OneMan said:


> Doesn't matter what problems went on before the affair, that is not the betrayed spouse's fault that they decided to cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> A BS being a "doormat" has nothing to do with trying to "mend" a broken relationship that can't be repaired.
> 
> 
> 
> More blameshifting. And I'm willing to bet that the "abuse" in the marriage was the other way around, from the "tone" of her posts. She has an entitlement mindset and cheaters will rewrite history in an attempt to gain sympathy.


This is all well and good but shoulda woulda coulda doesn't really help in anything, and downplaying certain problems in her marriage and expecting a clean slate post d day wasn't going to happen hence why reconciliation failed. She does feel a sense of entitlement, rightly or wrongly that her husband has to address the problems that led to this affair and not to put everything on her.


----------



## Complexity

This is all speculative of course. I can be completely dead wrong about everything.


----------



## Complexity

OneMan said:


> There isn't any shoulda woulda coulda about a WW beating down her husband to the point where he had to leave his own house, and then stating that she controls him and everything he owns. Sorry those "problems" that happened before her affair matters no more when you break vows and bring another man into your marital home.


I agree with you that her actions were pretty cruel post d-day, she even admits this, but from her POV she felt he had a heavy hand leading to this affair and came with the mentality that they were heading for divorce anyway hence the lack of remorse. His response stumped her. 




> Nope, it's wrong, and right now her husband doesn't have to address anything to her, except for divorce, which looks to be the case right now. If those problems were as serious as she stated then talking to him to find some solution or divorcing him should've been the way to go. She's an adult just like him.


I completely agree 100%. Either she didn't bother discussing her marital problems or he wasn't receptive to any of her demands.


----------



## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> I agree with you that her actions were pretty cruel post d-day, she even admits this, but from her POV she felt he had a heavy hand leading to this affair and came with the mentality that they were heading for divorce hence the lack of remorse. His response stumped her.
> 
> *But this isn't supported by working's posts when she first started speaking of this. In fact if you recall she claimed that she loved her husband very much and needed advice on how to win him back. It is only in the latter stages of reconciliation when things were breaking down that all this came out. And in those early posts she exhibited a defiant and stubborn attitude. That reemerged again toward the end when divorce seemed inevitable. Badblood picked up on this very early and has maintained his belief that working's prideful attitude was what was causing the derailment of reconciliation.*
> 
> 
> I completely agree 100%. Either she didn't bother discussing her marital problems or he wasn't receptive to any of her demands.
> 
> *I think it was a bit of both. I don't think she really knew how to communicate her needs to her husband and he was pretty clueless (as many of us are) as to what the problems were. The problem was that when she had her affair she needed to work hard to win him back to where they were before the affair. Only then could they have worked on their marital issues. I think she didn't want to give up the control she had acquired in the relationship and that also was what caused the R to break down.*


----------



## working_together

Complexity said:


> I think by the time the affair happened, working fell out of love with her husband and was actually taken back by the fact he didn't immediatley seek a divorce, something she veritably would've welcomed.
> 
> What we may interpret as blame shifting are to her legitimate grievances that slowly eroded the relationship she had with him and to a degree _explains_, not excuses the affair. In principle, working is remorseful as cheating is presumably out of character and she feels guilty for hurting her husband, however she doesn't see this as her fault primarily and to some extent expected her husband to be remorseful for leading her to this which I guess explains why she was horrible to him post d day.
> 
> I guess it's hard to show genuine remorse if you've grown to resent your partner and didn't want mere reconciliation but instead a complete do over of the marriage for which both parties will take equal responsibility. Consequently she wasn't comfortable with the fact the reconciliation process was all about him which she sees as the cause of all of this coupled with the fact she couldn't handle his triggers........it wasn't really fertile ground for reconciliation.
> 
> Here on TAM we expect the WS to take the helm in mending the relationship because the BS is usually a doormat by the time the affair happened and is generally a good spouse, but I suppose the same dynamics can't be applied with working's marriage. She I guess became worn out by the years of emotional abuse that were her own triggers every time her husband triggered and so she had a level of apathy about this whole thing.


I think you summed it up much better than I could. I had so much resentment towards him that it made it so difficult to show him through actions that I was remorseful. I was remorseful for the cheating, but I just didn't love him enough to work through it the way I should have.


----------



## working_together

When we decided to R. my husband was calm, and crying, he kept asking if "I still loved him", I said I did, but it wasn't as strong as it was years prior to the affair. The strongest our marriage was, was during my two last pregnancies. I had inherited money, and we were living comfortably, he was looking for work, but not stressed about it. We got along well, and were distracted with a baby and toddler.

What confused me at R. was that he did not show such venem against me, he seemed to say "lets work through this, we've worked through a lot of things". Then the anger came out, rage, ranting, name calling etc. Some of it of course I understand, he had every right to be angry with me. But it was the kind of anger that says "I'm not getting over this ever", and I was dumb in thinking I could change the anger, or make him feel better, he has some control over wanting to feel better as well, it's not all on me. Some won't agree with that, but if I had seen even a glimmer of hope, I would have immediately gone out of my way to continue to do things to make him happy. Before he gave up his apartment, I used to tell him "go home and chill out, we need a break", he didn't want to, he would say "I'm not done yet". Then on one occasion he did go back to his apartment, and sent angry texts all night. What was I supposed to think? yep, this is working out well for us. I gave up at that point, before the work even started. We both knew it was doomed from the start. I also thought that since I lived through his drug/alcohol addiction for several years when we first married, maybe we could get past this as well. I won't say drug/alcohol addiction is worse than infidelity, but unless you live with that, you have no idea what it's like, to be 8 months pregnant while your husband is cutting cocaine next to you. I was in constant worry for his life, he would not show up after work, I was afraid to be alone and pregnant, I was only 22. I wanted him to get help, we had no money at that point. I got a job after I had my son, within 6 weeks, my mother in law watched him. I was also very angry that he did this to me. When I got pregnant, it was not planned, I wasn't sure I could go through with it, he begged me to keep it, and we both thought it was a good choice. I felt he let me down with his addiction. It got so bad he sniffed rat poisoning once, I finally told him that I was going back to my mother's house until he sought help. I searched everywhere for help for him, NA,AA, I even went to meetings with him at the beginning. I found an outpatient group for him, and he recovered really well. But the anger never went away. He says he appreciated everything I did for him with that, and has never critizised me in this area. I just wanted the same from him, for him to forgive me for what I had done to him, and together we could have moved forward.


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## FourtyPlus

working_together said:


> When we decided to R. my husband was calm, and crying, he kept asking if "I still loved him", I said I did, but it wasn't as strong as it was years prior to the affair. The strongest our marriage was, was during my two last pregnancies. I had inherited money, and we were living comfortably, he was looking for work, but not stressed about it. We got along well, and were distracted with a baby and toddler.
> 
> What confused me at R. was that he did not show such venem against me, he seemed to say "lets work through this, we've worked through a lot of things". Then the anger came out, rage, ranting, name calling etc. Some of it of course I understand, he had every right to be angry with me. But it was the kind of anger that says "I'm not getting over this ever", and I was dumb in thinking I could change the anger, or make him feel better, he has some control over wanting to feel better as well, it's not all on me. Some won't agree with that, but if I had seen even a glimmer of hope, I would have immediately gone out of my way to continue to do things to make him happy. Before he gave up his apartment, I used to tell him "go home and chill out, we need a break", he didn't want to, he would say "I'm not done yet". Then on one occasion he did go back to his apartment, and sent angry texts all night. What was I supposed to think? yep, this is working out well for us. I gave up at that point, before the work even started. We both knew it was doomed from the start. I also thought that since I lived through his drug/alcohol addiction for several years when we first married, maybe we could get past this as well. I won't say drug/alcohol addiction is worse than infidelity, but unless you live with that, you have no idea what it's like, to be 8 months pregnant while your husband is cutting cocaine next to you. I was in constant worry for his life, he would not show up after work, I was afraid to be alone and pregnant, I was only 22. I wanted him to get help, we had no money at that point. I got a job after I had my son, within 6 weeks, my mother in law watched him. I was also very angry that he did this to me. When I got pregnant, it was not planned, I wasn't sure I could go through with it, he begged me to keep it, and we both thought it was a good choice. I felt he let me down with his addiction. It got so bad he sniffed rat poisoning once, I finally told him that I was going back to my mother's house until he sought help. I searched everywhere for help for him, NA,AA, I even went to meetings with him at the beginning. I found an outpatient group for him, and he recovered really well. But the anger never went away. He says he appreciated everything I did for him with that, and has never critizised me in this area. I just wanted the same from him, for him to forgive me for what I had done to him, and together we could have moved forward.


I had resentment issues with my husband as well, before the affair. He had told me he is too old to change but eventually I saw that he did make the efforts. By then I was in the middle of the affair, note that the resentment didn't make me have the affair. After the affair and once we decided we were going to work things out, I felt he had to continue to make efforts so I could get over the resentment. It doesn't work that way. He was in no state of mind to deal with anything other than what I had done to him. He said that he understands my resentment but it was really the last item on his list. 

Your resentment towards him might be a lot deeper and more severe so you were not able to put it on the back burner until your husband was emotionally in a position to help you deal with it. 
Also, you can't treat your husband as someone that functions rationally and normal all the time. I'm not saying he's a moron or anything, but if he says he wants to work on the marriage and then turns around and sends you angry texts all night long, it doesn't have to mean that he has changed his mind. I might just mean that he wants to work on the marriage but also has to have a way to express his anger - the roller coaster thing!
Yes, he has control over wanting to feel better but anger, hurt and frustration gets in the way of it and he then loses this control again - roller coaster thing!


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## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> I had resentment issues with my husband as well, before the affair. He had told me he is too old to change but eventually I saw that he did make the efforts. By then I was in the middle of the affair, note that the resentment didn't make me have the affair. After the affair and once we decided we were going to work things out, I felt he had to continue to make efforts so I could get over the resentment. It doesn't work that way. He was in no state of mind to deal with anything other than what I had done to him. He said that he understands my resentment but it was really the last item on his list.
> 
> Your resentment towards him might be a lot deeper and more severe so you were not able to put it on the back burner until your husband was emotionally in a position to help you deal with it.
> Also, you can't treat your husband as someone that functions rationally and normal all the time. I'm not saying he's a moron or anything, but if he says he wants to work on the marriage and then turns around and sends you angry texts all night long, it doesn't have to mean that he has changed his mind. I might just mean that he wants to work on the marriage but also has to have a way to express his anger - the roller coaster thing!
> Yes, he has control over wanting to feel better but anger, hurt and frustration gets in the way of it and he then loses this control again - roller coaster thing!


:iagree: Couldn't agree more.


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## Badblood

FourtyPlus said:


> I had resentment issues with my husband as well, before the affair. He had told me he is too old to change but eventually I saw that he did make the efforts. By then I was in the middle of the affair, note that the resentment didn't make me have the affair. After the affair and once we decided we were going to work things out, I felt he had to continue to make efforts so I could get over the resentment. It doesn't work that way. He was in no state of mind to deal with anything other than what I had done to him. He said that he understands my resentment but it was really the last item on his list.
> 
> Your resentment towards him might be a lot deeper and more severe so you were not able to put it on the back burner until your husband was emotionally in a position to help you deal with it.
> Also, you can't treat your husband as someone that functions rationally and normal all the time. I'm not saying he's a moron or anything, but if he says he wants to work on the marriage and then turns around and sends you angry texts all night long, it doesn't have to mean that he has changed his mind. I might just mean that he wants to work on the marriage but also has to have a way to express his anger - the roller coaster thing!
> Yes, he has control over wanting to feel better but anger, hurt and frustration gets in the way of it and he then loses this control again - roller coaster thing!


I couldn't agree more. Fourty, this post is very insightful.


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## Badblood

working_together said:


> When we decided to R. my husband was calm, and crying, he kept asking if "I still loved him", I said I did, but it wasn't as strong as it was years prior to the affair. The strongest our marriage was, was during my two last pregnancies. I had inherited money, and we were living comfortably, he was looking for work, but not stressed about it. We got along well, and were distracted with a baby and toddler.
> 
> What confused me at R. was that he did not show such venem against me, he seemed to say "lets work through this, we've worked through a lot of things". Then the anger came out, rage, ranting, name calling etc. Some of it of course I understand, he had every right to be angry with me. But it was the kind of anger that says "I'm not getting over this ever", and I was dumb in thinking I could change the anger, or make him feel better, he has some control over wanting to feel better as well, it's not all on me. Some won't agree with that, but if I had seen even a glimmer of hope, I would have immediately gone out of my way to continue to do things to make him happy. Before he gave up his apartment, I used to tell him "go home and chill out, we need a break", he didn't want to, he would say "I'm not done yet". Then on one occasion he did go back to his apartment, and sent angry texts all night. What was I supposed to think? yep, this is working out well for us. I gave up at that point, before the work even started. We both knew it was doomed from the start. I also thought that since I lived through his drug/alcohol addiction for several years when we first married, maybe we could get past this as well. I won't say drug/alcohol addiction is worse than infidelity, but unless you live with that, you have no idea what it's like, to be 8 months pregnant while your husband is cutting cocaine next to you. I was in constant worry for his life, he would not show up after work, I was afraid to be alone and pregnant, I was only 22. I wanted him to get help, we had no money at that point. I got a job after I had my son, within 6 weeks, my mother in law watched him. I was also very angry that he did this to me. When I got pregnant, it was not planned, I wasn't sure I could go through with it, he begged me to keep it, and we both thought it was a good choice. I felt he let me down with his addiction. It got so bad he sniffed rat poisoning once, I finally told him that I was going back to my mother's house until he sought help. I searched everywhere for help for him, NA,AA, I even went to meetings with him at the beginning. I found an outpatient group for him, and he recovered really well. But the anger never went away. He says he appreciated everything I did for him with that, and has never critizised me in this area. I just wanted the same from him, for him to forgive me for what I had done to him, and together we could have moved forward.


So NOW it's drug abuse. Before, it was verbal abuse, before that it was abusing the kids, before that it was neglect. What WILL it be tommorrow? Working , one thing is clear. You will do anything and say anything to let yourself off the hook. You are not even close to being remorseful. All of your posts have been all about you. I simply can't imagine being married to somebody as arrogant, insensitive and deliberately cruel as you appear to be, and yet remain so clueless. Of all of the WS'S I've read about on TAM, you are by far the most selfish and self-willed.. I do not believe that you are even capable of feeling the pain you have caused. You will, sadly, go through life being the center of a universe of your own imagining. Where you are always the victim, and anything you do that is bad , is somebody elses fault. Maybe some day, you will mature into an adult. Let's hope so.


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## morituri

Working, what you seem to forget is that even if your husband had been close to perfect, it would not have been enough for you not to have fallen into an affair. I say this because your weak boundary control made it possible for the OM to seduce you. Until you accept this, then you are bound to repeat this in another long term committed relationship in the future.


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## working_together

I was merely pointing out that I had forgiven him for his drug abuse, I helped with his recovery, I just wanted the same in return, help me to understand what i did, and not expect me to be perfect, and that's all.

Yep, the resentment is way too much.

It doesn't matter any longer, I will work on boundaries etc. so that this does not happen in future relationships. If I've learned a few things in the last year, it is to speak up right away when I'm not feeling good in a relationship, own my end of things, not let things fester, and end it if neither of us are happy. I need to compromise more, be more giving at times with my affection. Sometimes I let things build until I get fed up, and that's not at all healthy for me. All these things will be talked about with my counselor. I admit to my faults, or most of them lol.

I know it's not going to happen again, I'm much more aware of a lot things.


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## working_together

OneMan said:


> Amen!:iagree: Couldn't agree more.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah she ain't clueless. No way can she treat her husband like this and be clueless.
> 
> She's just shocked her meal ticket is about to expire.


I never had a meal ticket, read all my posts my friend.


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## working_together

morituri said:


> Working, what you seem to forget is that even if your husband had been close to perfect, it would not have been enough for you not to have fallen into an affair. I say this because your weak boundary control made it possible for the OM to seduce you. Until you accept this, then you are bound to repeat this in another long term committed relationship in the future.


Had I been happy in my marriage I wouldn't have accepted another man's advances. I agree my boundaries were weak, but they never led me to an affair in my marriage. It was the combination of many things going on at the same time. I was unhappy with myself, my job was not very challanging, and I was overwhelmed at times with small children.

Everything in my life felt out of control. I don't have that feeling now, I may not feel happy about my marriage ending, but I need to move forward with my own life as well.


And I have a job interview next week, so the financial stress may be gone soon enough.


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## working_together

OneMan said:


> You don't have to directly say it. It's all in your posts. I know enough about your story. Too many lies to read and they all are the same. You're unemployed. That's the reason why your husband's words shocked you


I have a couple of part-time jobs btw. It's just not enough to support myself and my kids. I have had jobs in the past, always did help support this house. I have a degree I'm not some looser sponging off my husband, and laughing at him while he pays bills. Maybe your wife was like that, or many other forum's spouses were, but don't think it's all like that, it's very judgemental of you.


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## working_together

OneMan said:


> So now the "reasons" for your affair were your job and small children.


It was a reason I let my boundaries become lose if you will. I made the horrible decision to sleep with another man, I KNOW THAT. I was just giving some perspective. My decision was destructive, I agree, I should have done many other things besides screw another man, and lie to my husband for months.


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## TBT

One thing I will say about you working,is that like the Timex watch...you take a licking,but keep on ticking.Take care


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## morituri

working_together said:


> *Had I been happy in my marriage I wouldn't have accepted another man's advances*. I agree my boundaries were weak, but they never led me to an affair in my marriage.


So it was the state of your marriage made you do it? How is that taking ownership for your affair?

Sorry but I disagree. There a lot of unhappy people in lousy marriages who choose no to cross marital boundaries and have an affair as well as there are married people in great marriages who choose to cross marital boundaries and have an affair. My own ex-wife said that she had never been happier in our marriage and yet she crossed marital boundaries which lead her to an affair. The same with bandit45 stbxw and others here.

You had choices. The moment you knew that your husband was abusing drugs or being abusive, you had the option to bail out of the marriage and keep your honor intact. But instead you chose to stay married and sweep things under the rug. Then the OM came along and *you made the conscious choice to break marital boundaries and have an affair.*

As adults with free will, we have options. They may not be palatable but we have the obligation to others and to ourselves, to make the best choice possible.


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## pidge70

morituri said:


> So it was the state of your marriage made you do it? How is that taking ownership for your affair?
> 
> Sorry but I disagree. There a lot of unhappy people in lousy marriages who choose no to cross marital boundaries and have an affair as well as there are married people in great marriages who choose to cross marital boundaries and have an affair. My own ex-wife said that she had never been happier in our marriage and yet she crossed marital boundaries which lead her to an affair. The same with bandit45 stbxw and others here.
> 
> You had choices. The moment you knew that your husband was abusing drugs or being abusive, you had the option to bail out of the marriage and keep your honor intact. But instead you chose to stay married and sweep things under the rug. Then the OM came along and *you made the conscious choice to break marital boundaries and have an affair.*
> 
> As adults with free will, we have options. They may not be palatable but we have the obligation to others and to ourselves, to make the best choice possible.


:iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## working_together

morituri said:


> So it was the state of your marriage made you do it? How is that taking ownership for your affair?
> 
> Sorry but I disagree. There a lot of unhappy people in lousy marriages who choose no to cross marital boundaries and have an affair as well as there are married people in great marriages who choose to cross marital boundaries and have an affair. My own ex-wife said that she had never been happier in our marriage and yet she crossed marital boundaries which lead her to an affair. The same with bandit45 stbxw and others here.
> 
> You had choices. The moment you knew that your husband was abusing drugs or being abusive, you had the option to bail out of the marriage and keep your honor intact. But instead you chose to stay married and sweep things under the rug. Then the OM came along and *you made the conscious choice to break marital boundaries and have an affair.*
> 
> As adults with free will, we have options. They may not be palatable but we have the obligation to others and to ourselves, to make the best choice possible.


Maybe I didn`t say it correctly. I was at a vulnerable time in my life, but yes, it was still a choice I made, I know. I always said that I made a bad choice, but I also said the reasons it made it easier to do it, and be so evil about. I think I have taken ownership in terms of the bad decision, and I`ll leave it at that.


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## working_together

OneMan said:


> Yet you spout about how you own him and could take away everything of his if you wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get angry at others because you have to face your consequences.


I`ve already faced them.


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## working_together

TBT said:


> One thing I will say about you working,is that like the Timex watch...you take a licking,but keep on ticking.Take care


Not for long, my time has come to an end on this forum, I think I`m ready to move on.


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## morituri

working_together said:


> Not for long, my time has come to an end on this forum, I think I`m ready to move on.


I understand and I wish you and your loved ones nothing but the very best in life. Take care and God bless.


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## Badblood

Working, you have threatened to leave , before, and I think you probably should. We can't seem to help you understand your husband's feelings and your passive-aggressive attempts to assassinate his character aren't believed by most posters here. You should concentrate on you family and also on building character in yourself. Good luck to you.


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