# Codependency



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Let's have a good discussion folks, just curious about your thoughts about something I'm looking at : Codependency
I'm going to see my wife and daughter in a few minutes, and if my wife wants she can tag along if she wants, if she does and if we do have time alone I'm thinking of bringing it up and discussing it with her. 

We're still seperated but no longer heading for divorce - yet. We're in a position where we can finally reflect on our marriage and all the problems we had. One of them is this.

Links here:
Codependency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Signs of a Codependent Relationship

What guys think about co-dependency?


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

I know I have it and that it is different for each person who suffers it. I am in IC right now and I am reading the Codependent No More book. (Good one to read)

I think that there is a healthy level of codependency in a relationship because there is a need to not be, so independent. It is when it becomes unreasonably out of balance that it is a problem (unless you are a infant/child because they are dependent for good reasons). 

If it were not for the book and IC (and even a few Alanon meetings, even though drinking is not his problem) I would still be so absorbed into my H that nothing of my self would exist.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

=O 
Interesting book... hmmm

"Is someone else's problem your problem? If, like so many others, you've lost sight of your own life in the drama of tending to someone else's, you may be codependent--and you may find yourself in this book."

Actually this looks like a good read, it's directly applicable. Thanks for that


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RD the author of Codependency For Dummies: Darlene Lancer: 9781118095225: Amazon.com: Books joined TAM recently, you might PM her and invite her to join your topic Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Darlene Lancer, JD, MFT


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## Madman1 (Oct 24, 2012)

I just think I need to make an appearance here!
look in the dictionary under co-dependency, you will see my picture.
But I make up for it by being passive agressive.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok, invitation sent.


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## angler 420 (Dec 4, 2012)

I am certainly co dependent. I started another thread a few weeks ago about this exact topic. I justify my situation it in my mind as my wife is not well physically and I tell myself that I am "good caregiver".

Darlene did comment on my thread and confirmed that I was definitely co dependent. 

I started to read "no more Mr. Nice Guy", but so far I don't find a lot of it applies to my life. I am only in the beginning of the book and he is talking about why men get this way. Not a lot of it applies to my childhood. Maybe the rest of the book will be helpful as it starts to deal with correcting this issue.

I look forward to following this thread and sharing more of my experience.

(I don't know how to link my thread to this one, but it is titled Caregiver or enabler/co dependent?)


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I've read codependant no more twice.

Randomdude, the point of the book is that you are responsible for taking care of yourself, and no one else.

Is that REALLY a message you are willing to receive right now?????? :scratchhead:


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm too attached at the moment to my wife's issues when it's not my domain, I need to detach without being an a$$... so yes


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think it’s a seriously tough call. My wife had a few issues, mainly to do with avoidant behaviour, denial and passive aggression. Since we’ve been separate I add massively big time deceit to the list. I spent what feels like eons trying to get her to change her behaviour because of the seriously negative affect it had on me and consequently our marriage. It did go on for a very long time. I stayed because I loved her and she had many fine qualities, some of which I aspire to for myself.

But she’d never ever change, find better ways of doing things. Things came to a head when she’d seriously wounded me yet again and so I found myself some boundaries and enforced them. In a nice way but rigidly and uncompromisingly.

She more or less “walked”, typical of her avoidant behaviour. It’s what she used to do, stonewall and deny whenever there was an issue between us I wanted to resolve.

But blow me a few days later she came back again, all dressed up and looking very desirable. Right up until this time we’d have had make up sex. But I didn’t go there because although while very enjoyable it never actually fixed the problems between us. So I repeated my boundaries. She blew up in my face such that I just couldn’t see her on her way quick enough in order to defend myself from being wounded by her yet again.

It’s really tough stuff this, evolving from a codependent and into an independent. Sometimes we have to let go of the woman we seriously love in order to grow and have, hopefully a better life without them.

I don’t think it possible to cease to be a codependent while married to the person you’re codependent with. Unless of course they are willing to seek help and change and the couple work on their relationship together as a team, helping one another grow. Which to me is part of what I understand marriage to be about, most especially when you’ve married your opposite.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sheez AFEH... I guess I'm lucky in that sense, my wife has so far shown remorse and the desire to change. She has yet to manipulate me using her body which is normally her style as well, and so far has done everything right. I'm trying to do right by her as well, but at the same time it's obvious I need to be able to detach from this and let her run her program. I need to find a way where I can still support her without getting involved.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Sheez AFEH... I guess I'm lucky in that sense, my wife has so far shown remorse and the desire to change. She has yet to manipulate me using her body which is normally her style as well, and so far has done everything right. I'm trying to do right by her as well, but at the same time it's obvious I need to be able to detach from this and let her run her program. I need to find a way where I can still support her without getting involved.


It is a hard thing to do. At first I did not like the word "Detach" it seemed such a cold, uncaring word to me. I am becoming friends with it slowly.

I support my H with encouraging words and not trying to "control" everything in HIS life. What he does to work on him is HIS and I have to be hands off. I am becoming more assertive in conversation and not so focused on him, that I CAN focus on me. It is a good feeling although self awareness kind of sucks


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

How you do it? Hell maybe I should just start reading lol, which book? Now I have two options... the one you recommended and another for dummies heh


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

I say get both. Really, pick up as many as you can and pick the one that speaks to you. I am reading "Codependent No More" because it has a companion work book (same name) which is good for me because I need something to work to keep motivated.
I'm also in IC which helps too because she gives me, what I have named "home work", it is things that I do between visits then report back to her about them as well as the talking with objective person helps.
I actually complement my H and use words of affirmation for all the positive changes I see in him, especially when the changes have been a struggle for him, so I also point out in an appreciating tone, how it has improved things for us as a family. 
For me, detaching is the act of letting go when I feel like I need to control something that is not with in my control, or hands off, as in I care but I am not going to loose my peace over it, because I can not let his actions take that from me anymore.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

or rather I can not take my peace from me over my choice of reaction to his behaviors.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Compliments... yeah I guess I can do that, I don't have to be involved but at the same time I'm still supporting her. I wonder why Mrs. Lancer did not accept my invitation however, would be a good opportunity to sell her book in my opinion!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Sheez AFEH... I guess I'm lucky in that sense, my wife has so far shown remorse and the desire to change. She has yet to manipulate me using her body which is normally her style as well, and so far has done everything right. I'm trying to do right by her as well, but at the same time it's obvious I need to be able to detach from this and let her run her program. I need to find a way where I can still support her without getting involved.


Personally I think you’re on the right track and going about things in the right way.

Basically there’s two things going on (1) your individual characters and (2) the dynamics generated between your characters.

Your wife’s changes will undoubtedly change the dynamics between the two of you. So you will be interacting with a different person.


It will take you a while to not only “see” your wife’s changes but also to respond to her in new and different ways.

And this is where you need to be Mindful. Instead of your normal almost knee jerk reactions (even to just being in your wife’s company/presence) you need to be very Mindful and Aware of how you are “reacting”. Again Awareness will help you with this.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Personally I think you’re on the right track and going about things in the right way.
> 
> Basically there’s two things going on (1) your individual characters and (2) the dynamics generated between your characters.
> 
> ...


Alright, guess you convinced me. I'll finish the book, it's just hard to digest and implement it into one's natural responses. Like, I can read one chapter and go "yeah that's a good way to see it", but I'm a LONG way from that point to full awareness. Maybe I should just focus on finishing though yes?

How long did it take you to fully understand the book?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Kurosity said:


> It is a hard thing to do. At first I did not like the word "Detach" it seemed such a cold, uncaring word to me. I am becoming friends with it slowly.
> 
> I support my H with encouraging words and not trying to "control" everything in HIS life. What he does to work on him is HIS and I have to be hands off. I am becoming more assertive in conversation and not so focused on him, that I CAN focus on me. *It is a good feeling although self awareness kind of sucks*


This is the stage I’m at. Now my attention is quite a bit away from my wife’s behaviour, I’m having epiphany moments wrt my own behaviour over the past 4 decades.

In some ways my Shadow is slowly being revealed to me and it’s not at all nice. I think overall it’s good to do this stuff as it’s said our best self improvement work is done by working on the contents our Shadow.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Alright, guess you convinced me. I'll finish the book, it's just hard to digest and implement it into one's natural responses. Like, I can read one chapter and go "yeah that's a good way to see it", but I'm a LONG way from that point to full awareness. Maybe I should just focus on finishing though yes?
> 
> How long did it take you to fully understand the book?


If you had full Awareness you'd be a Buddhist Monk, yet even the most learned will tell you it's a never ending journey.


One exercise is to keep your mouth closed and a small smile on your face next time you say see your wife. And just observe. Your eyes should open up and you should become more Aware. You are not looking to interact, not waiting to get your words in, not thinking what to say next. All you are doing is observing. You can try it out on your employees as well.

You know it's working when someone comments how much you've changed!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Alright, guess you convinced me. I'll finish the book, it's just hard to digest and implement it into one's natural responses. Like, I can read one chapter and go "yeah that's a good way to see it", but I'm a LONG way from that point to full awareness. Maybe I should just focus on finishing though yes?
> 
> *How long did it take you to fully understand the book?*


I think I “got it” within the first 20 pages or so. He repeats much to get the message across.


Implementation though, putting it into practice is a very different matter. I used to practice when driving my car. At the time I lived in a small village amongst a group of villages in one of the Shires in England. There were schools in each village and a 30 mph speed limit. The mothers in the 4x4 SUVs used to drive me crazy when they tail gaited seemingly trying to push me along so they’re not late.

I used to get really quite angry at them and couldn’t see a way out. So I practiced under those circumstances. I just observed what was going on. I did that by putting my observer’s eyes 100 ft or so above my car, it’s amazing what we can teach our mind to do. And sure enough I calmed right the way down and they no longer bothered me to such a degree, didn’t have a deep emotional affect on me.


But it’s really very much harder to do when with your spouse! If you are in the middle of a disagreement, confrontation, conflict or whatever what actually happens is our ego gets “locked in”. And if our spouse is shet testing us we can get locked in even more and quite deeply such that our emotions associated with our ego actually blind us to what’s happening around us.

That’s the time to switch out of our Ego Consciousness and into our Observer Consciousness. When we do that a whole different world can be revealed to us, now that our ego no longer blinds us.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Our natural responses where once not so natural. We learned them at some point from some where. They can be changed or trashed. I am working on these things all the busted "tools, reactions, thoughts (yes the cognitive state must be changed too), behaviors" that have created what I know now that can not remain......i hope that makes sense.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

AFEH said:


> One exercise is to keep your mouth closed and a small smile on your face next time you say see your wife. And just observe. Your eyes should open up and you should become more Aware. You are not looking to interact, not waiting to get your words in, not thinking what to say next. All you are doing is observing. You can try it out on your employees as well. You know it's working when someone comments how much you've changed!
> 
> I think I “got it” within the first 20 pages or so. He repeats much to get the message across.
> 
> ...





Kurosity said:


> Our natural responses where once not so natural. We learned them at some point from some where. They can be changed or trashed. I am working on these things all the busted "tools, reactions, thoughts (yes the cognitive state must be changed too), behaviors" that have created what I know now that can not remain......i hope that makes sense.


Hell yeah! That's what happens and that's why I can't say I can truly understand the book. Like I read it, and I go "yeah ok", then comes implementation and I go "WTF?" Your exercises sound promising however, I guess thats what I should be doing instead of trying to digest the book just by reading it - have to start implementing it. On my employees? Hehe fun to experiment on one's minions!!! :smthumbup:

When I'm driving I also get a bit annoyed, road rage is a good way to exercise awareness! As for my wife it's even harder, especially when your emotions and thoughts are pulled in - being an observer in these situations can be tough and have always relied on my instincts because my conscious mind was not able to detect her pokes and prods. If my conscious mind was able to however - I would be able to call out her BS much better, and be able to handle her manipulations during the act instead of later when I just go "wait a minute, I just got played for a sucker" lol

Challenge however... thankfully my wife hasn't played such games for a while, for a month. But it's only a matter of time I guess before I'm going to be tested in this. Thanks guys for this btw, it gives me a bit of a road map when it comes to implementing these principles.


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## Darlene Lancer JD MFT (Mar 4, 2012)

Hey guys and gal, hope you don't mind my joining your discussion. Just wanted to let you know about a blog posts on my site "The Dilemmas of Codependent Men" and recently "Letting Go." If you visit my site you can get a Free PDF "14 Tips for Letting Go." In my book, I prefer to call it nonattachment, because detaching often sounds cold or like you have to physically separate. Not true, it's an internal shift that actually allows you to be more loving, but it requires inner work. FYI "Codependency for Dummies" is also a workbook and contains loads of tools and exercises to begin changing immediately. It's laid out like a recovery plan. BTW, it's pretty hard to stop thinking about X until you substitute it with something else, so find something that is meaningful, engrossing, challenging, entertaining, or inspiring on which to place your attention, rather than your spouse. And if one of you changes, it forces the other to change. I've seen it happen many times. Best wishes on all of your journeys of self-discovery!
Darlene Lancer, MFT
You can find info and daily tips on my Facebook page at "Codependency Recovery"


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Welcome Darlene and thanks for the suggestions!

And you're spot on in my case that when one changes, it does force the other to change or at the very least - adapt. However hopefully my wife and I can change for the better for both of us.


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## Darlene Lancer JD MFT (Mar 4, 2012)

It definitely helps when you''re both on the same path and can begin to spot when you're doing your dance. Either on of you can make a joke. give a signal, or just call time out. Stop and write or think about your triggers, nurture yourself, and, if still necessary, return to the conversation from a centered space. Ch. 9 is all about nonattachment with numerous exercises and suggestions.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Phrases like this is why I have trouble with psychoanalysis in the modern era:

Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself,” she tells WebMD. “It’s kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn’t sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that’s what it is. It means you’re trying to make the relationship work with someone else who’s not,” Tessina says.

This is true of EVERY long term relationship at one point in time or another. So by definition we are all currently or have been codependent.


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## CorkonAFork (Aug 12, 2012)

I recently left a co-dependent relationship (whereas we are currently separated, albeit in-house, and on fast-track to amicable divorce).

I was married for 5 years, together for a few years longer. At first things were great, but in all honesty things were on the decline even as far back as when we were married. I suppose I was just naive, or thought I/we could change things. That plus I had no clue what 'co-dependance' was, and what it was doing to us.

I'll tell you I was very bad at having boundaries. This lead into a very bad cycle for me, where as life went on, I found myself compromising more and more parts of myself (hobbies, friends, interests, younameit). Eventually I'd blow my smokestack, vent a bit, and then fall back into the same cycle. I have another thread somewhere here that details it all.

I went to a lot of different counselors, and I will tell you the two most important things they managed to drive into me. One: identify harmful patterns, and find ways to change them. 
Two: The only person you can change is yourself.
The latter step came from the counselar who enlightened me to co-dependance. Once I'd researched what he asked me, and read the Melanie Beatty book, I had a much better understanding why my relationship was failing, and, why it should not be continued.

So I separated, and quickly (I'm very glad for this) found myself again...it actually feels like I can breath again. I felt so much happier with myself. 

There are many many definitions for co-dependancy, I'll give you one metaphor of mine: My wife had a hole on the bottom of her 'love bucket'. No matter how much I loved, how much I changed, how much I compromised...it all went out the bottom. 

I'm dating someone exclusively now...an amazing woman with whom I can tell you shows no sign of having holes on the bottom of that Love Bucket...and the difference feels like night and day.

Edit: I suppose I should point out the counselors found me not to be co-dependant, but found my wife to be extremely so


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

sinnister said:


> Phrases like this is why I have trouble with psychoanalysis in the modern era:
> 
> Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself,” she tells WebMD. “It’s kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn’t sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that’s what it is. It means you’re trying to make the relationship work with someone else who’s not,” Tessina says.
> 
> This is true of EVERY long term relationship at one point in time or another. So by definition we are all currently or have been codependent.


But codependency is on a spectrum. From mild to extreme and everything in between. Probably every marriage has a mixture of codependency and interdependency in it. It’s the level of codependency that’s key.

This is from the same article …
_“Often the thing that gets an alcoholic to go to AA, or narcissists to get it that something’s wrong, is losing somebody. It’s ironic that the person who wants to stay there forever and give and give has to say ‘OK, I’m through. I’m done. I’m leaving,’ before the partner will turn around and say ‘Oh, wait a minute, I really do care about you,’ ” Tessina says.

Bochner has seen clients go through the same realization. “The willingness to leave is often what sets things straight. They have to get to a point where they have to save themselves by saying ‘I love you, but I have to take care of me.’ Then, sometimes, the relationship actually changes.”_
Signs of a Codependent Relationship

Sometimes it’s not until a person is actually standing over the precipice that they actually change to stop themselves falling in. A mate of mine, a recovering alcoholic was told by his doc that he had 6 months to live. Yet he kept on drinking. He only stopped after he’d crapped in his pants while in the middle of a shop. That was 28 years ago and he’s not had a drop since. He’d stood over his precipice.


And sometimes it’s the same with marriages. The codependent can spend eons trying to get their partner to change. I did. Then 6 months after we’d separated she’d told she could see her behaviour which drove me mad at times and it was an eye opener for her. She’d had an epiphany moment. She was way too late by that time.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

_
Bochner has seen clients go through the same realization. “The willingness to leave is often what sets things straight. They have to get to a point where they have to save themselves by saying ‘I love you, but I have to take care of me.’ Then, sometimes, the relationship actually changes.”_
Signs of a Codependent Relationship

And that's often repeated here, in the main by Deejo.


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## Darlene Lancer JD MFT (Mar 4, 2012)

Often codependents "work" on relationships in the wrong way, either by expecting someone else to meet emotional needs they should on their own, by accepting unacceptable behavior, by caretaking, criticizing - which pushes the other person away - or by trying to get close to someone who is emotionally unavailable. Even a violent abuser needs his partner and will fight (literally) to keep the relationship.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Darlene Lancer said:


> Often codependents "work" on relationships in the wrong way, either by expecting someone else to meet emotional needs they should on their own, by accepting unacceptable behavior, by caretaking, criticizing - which pushes the other person away - or by trying to get close to someone who is emotionally unavailable. Even a violent abuser needs his partner and will fight (literally) to keep the relationship.


For me it was a big clash of a value system.

I believed in and valued forgiveness, my wife was the opposite. She’d hold onto a grudge for decades as though it’d happened just yesterday. Her mother was exactly the same. As a 70 year old she’d talk about things that happened when she was five as though they happened yesterday. How on earth these people keep things from 60 years ago current in their mind is beyond me. I reckon they think on them every day of their life.

I worked through, forgave and let go of stuff that my wife had done. Nothing I ever did or said would get her to my way of thinking.

After the last episode when she’d thrown something in my face from 10 years previously I finally found some personal boundaries and told her what I’d never again tolerate. That was the very first time I knew that she was deadly serious about never forgiving so for me it was over. I wish I’d known about boundaries a long time ago. But life goes on.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Darlene Lancer said:


> It definitely helps when you''re both on the same path and can begin to spot when you're doing your dance. Either on of you can make a joke. give a signal, or just call time out. Stop and write or think about your triggers, nurture yourself, and, if still necessary, return to the conversation from a centered space. Ch. 9 is all about nonattachment with numerous exercises and suggestions.


Hmmm, it sounds like it maybe a good idea if both of us read and study these exercises together no? My wife is on the same path as me now but her dances at times are hard to pick up and to accuse her with as she keeps her bases very well covered and easily convinces me that she's not trying to manipulate me - when after she gets her way I realise right at the end "crap, I did what she wanted"

I managed to hold her off the last time she came at me, come to think of it now all the stuff she did like; cooking for me, spending time as a family, doing my laundry telling me that she loves me, she's trying to win her way back home by showing me that I need her around. However if she comes home now, she'll most likely take it as a "all is well" card and then decide our problems don't need to be fixed. Her best manipulations are the ones that come with "rights", like "I do this for you", and "you should do this for me, it's fair, don't be an a$$", etc etc. Nonattachment to her during these scenarios can be challenging especially during the game itself.


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## Darlene Lancer JD MFT (Mar 4, 2012)

That sounds great! Chapter 11 is about developing healthy communication. Codependents have dysfunctional communication learned in their families of origin. Manipulation and blame are forms of verbal abuse, which was learned and can be unlearned. Part of raising self-esteem is learning to communicate directly and assertively. Check out "How to Speak Your Mind - Become Assertive and Set Limits."


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks for this! You are correct too - my wife admitted that alot of her manipulative skills came from influence from her mum, and judging by their family, it seems true considering my father-in-law is a complete doormat. In the case of my wife and I - it's very difficult to break the dynamics that has existed for 5 years, and it's something I've grown used to up until the breaking point when I couldn't take it anymore. You mentioned denial in your book and that is true, both me and my wife just couldn't see it while we were in a "snow globe" so to speak.

Seperation has really opened our eyes. It looks like this may very well be the first book my wife and I can sit down and study together as a team as it focuses directly on our dynamics too. So far it's been very straight forward to read and study and it feels like a workbook, thanks again for this  Judging by our lack of firm boundaries in our relationship as well, looks like we'll also have to study How To Speak Your Mind. Setting limits/boundaries in our relationship can be challenging, and sometimes she does seem to accuse me of a bit of "bait and switch"


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm a card carrying, recovering codependent. Took 4 years of therapy before I even realized how badly codependent I was.

It was the LAST thing I fixed in therapy but by far the most significant.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Darlene Lancer said:


> That sounds great! Chapter 11 is about developing healthy communication.


Chapter references are from "Codependant for Dummies?"


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