# Wife fired our sex therapist (and I agree with reasons)



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

After spending $260/session, on average about 3x per month, for about six months so far I think? We were not seeing the results we would have liked and the therapist was giving us the "Well it takes time and it's cheaper seeing me than getting a divorce" line. But each session we tended to feel worse about our issues than better. It's tough to know when it's time to move on, because you're seeing an expert, trained to help you, right? But as things continued there were more and more times it seemed like our therapist had issues with men in general, and when I'd question a premise, I would be told not to interrupt. No matter whether the premise was something totally made up. 

From my wife's perspective, we were paying good money for help primarily with getting past her (my wife's) negative views of sex and she wanted ways of turning her thinking around. Her big frustration was that the therapist wasn't talking to us much at all, but instead setting up situations in which we'd talk to each other about things we didn't like. Most of which is covered by our marriage counselor.  Below is the letter my wife sent to our therapist-



> Dr. Xxxx:
> CO and I have spent a great deal of time discussing our therapy with you over the last couple of days and have decided it doesn't make sense to continue. The reasons why-
> 
> 1: Frustration over the issue of "sex therapy". You are considered a sex therapist and we haven't had much sex therapy. I understand that a good relationship is the starting point for an improved sex life, but relationship counseling wasn't what we signed up for. We're seeing someone else for that. And early on you were all gung-ho on how I was a tigress waiting to be unleashed (or something like that) but that went away quickly.
> ...


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> After spending $260/session, on average about 3x per month, for about six months so far I think? We were not seeing the results we would have liked and the therapist was giving us the "Well it takes time and it's cheaper seeing me than getting a divorce" line. But each session we tended to feel worse about our issues than better. It's tough to know when it's time to move on, because you're seeing an expert, trained to help you, right? But as things continued there were more and more times it seemed like our therapist had issues with men in general, and when I'd question a premise, I would be told not to interrupt. No matter whether the premise was something totally made up.
> 
> From my wife's perspective, we were paying good money for help primarily with getting past her (my wife's) negative views of sex and she wanted ways of turning her thinking around. Her big frustration was that the therapist wasn't talking to us much at all, but instead setting up situations in which we'd talk to each other about things we didn't like. Most of which is covered by our marriage counselor.  Below is the letter my wife sent to our therapist-


I guess its good at least you are going...just not sure I would know what to really expect? Is another woman really going to get your wife to think differently? Not sure?

Either way sorry that one was a failure but maybe another one is worth a try?


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I guess its good at least you are going...just not sure I would know what to really expect? Is another woman really going to get your wife to think differently? Not sure?
> 
> Either way sorry that one was a failure but maybe another one is worth a try?


I think we learned a lot about the process and what does, and doesn't, work for us. It was not a waste of time (unless you choose to look at it that way). We'll definitely be trying another, but we'll be looking for someone who doesn't discount my wife's very strong religious beliefs way back when (which are largely still intact, as are mine). There's a bias against Christianity for some therapists, as if it's something you have to move past. Some therapists even talk about their own journeys in that regard.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Dude, stop paying a therapist and start paying a lawyer. This isn’t going to end well for you. She’s firing therapists to prove her point that she doesn’t like sex? Good grief.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> Dude, stop paying a therapist and start paying a lawyer. This isn’t going to end well for you. She’s firing therapists to prove her point that she doesn’t like sex? Good grief.


So that’s 180 from my take! Her reasons for firing her aligned with mine. She’s taking responsibility for things going wrong. And I certainly could have talked with her about things and still kept going, but this just wasn’t a match for “us” and it’s not just her. There is an “us” here.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

You thought you were seeing the sex therapist to get tips to make your sex life more exciting?

Given your history.... that starting with the very first time you had sex together she was turned off of sex, why did either of you think that was in any way realistic? Whose idea was that?

That's the equivalent of believing in magic fairy dust.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

A few thoughts. 

First, a sex therapist is a marriage counselor with extra training in sexual issues. Some specialize in gender identity, some in sex addiction, some in gay sexual problems. You need to both know the "approach" to marriage counseling and their area of specialty in sex therapy.

As to marriage counseling, I favor the approaches taught by Sue Johnson, the Gottmans, and David Schnarch. As to to sex therapist, I was lucky to see on with my wife who had a national reputation and written many articles and books. 

It sounds like your ST either wasn't very good or was the wrong one for the two of you. Rather than giving up, make her give you three to six referrals. Interview them. Tell them that the last ST you had was a waste of time and be specific. Say that if you hire them you want a focused and goal oriented treatment plan. Also tell them that because you felt you were burned once, that you would like a "short progress review" monthly on achievement of goals. 

Go into this like a project manager. It is your money and more importantly your life with your wife.

An extremely good ST saved my marriage at near the 40 year mark, which was about ten years ago. We have also had a couple of marriage counselors and done some DIY counseling via reading chapters in books and discussing them. We would never had saved our marriage had it not been for the ST.

Good luck.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> After spending $260/session, on average about 3x per month, for about six months so far I think? We were not seeing the results we would have liked and the therapist was giving us the "Well it takes time and it's cheaper seeing me than getting a divorce" line. But each session we tended to feel worse about our issues than better. It's tough to know when it's time to move on, because you're seeing an expert, trained to help you, right?


LOL...'expert?' According to whom?

Sadly, this is yet just *another* quack therapist only too happy to Hoover up your money while accomplishing absolutely nothing. What a surprise. Not.

This is why I have zero faith in these fools. And everyone keeps proving me right.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

$260/session? WTF? I hope they last 10 hours...


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> I think we learned a lot about the process and what does, and doesn't, work for us. It was not a waste of time (unless you choose to look at it that way). We'll definitely be trying another, but we'll be looking for someone who doesn't discount my wife's very strong religious beliefs way back when (which are largely still intact, as are mine). There's a bias against Christianity for some therapists, as if it's something you have to move past. Some therapists even talk about their own journeys in that regard.


A therapist who is biased against a particular religion or all religion is bad. OTOH if what they want you to get past is a negative attitude towards sex that is sometimes associated w/ religion, that is good. For the record, I know that many religious people have healthy attitudes towards sex and that many religions aren't negative about it.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@Casual Observer,

Just curious— is your wife aware you post here? Does she read your posts?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> Just curious— is your wife aware you post here? Does she read your posts?


You mean... does she know he has his secret diary here?


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> many religions aren't negative about it.


The bible isn't negative about sex between married people. Only "christianity" is. It has always amazed me that so many "christians" do not really know what the bible says, their "religion" is vain and pharisaical, mostly based upon what they hear from other "christians" ( who also do not know the bible ).

It causes many to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Therapists are, unfortunately, no exception.

And, this is very hard to overcome. Like the old song says "...the roots of my raisin' run deep....". Ask me. I'm still trying at 68. God keeps on hammering. May His Name be blessed forever.

I hope you find a counselor who knows the scripture, and uses it as the basis for his/her teaching.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

TJW said:


> The bible isn't negative about sex between married people. Only "christianity" is. It has always amazed me that so many "christians" do not really know what the bible says, their "religion" is vain and pharisaical, mostly based upon what they hear from other "christians" ( who also do not know the bible ).
> 
> It causes many to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Therapists are, unfortunately, no exception.
> 
> ...


If you're a counselor what matters is what your patient thinks. Whether it's an accurate interpretation of a particular faith or not isn't important. There are people w/ an interest in what Faith X's position on sex is, and that's fine, I'm just not one of them.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> As to marriage counseling, I favor the approaches taught by Sue Johnson, the Gottmans, and David Schnarch.


Let me just throw in that those three all have very different approaches. Johnson and Schnarch, in particular, have gone so far as to publicly criticise each other's approaches.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> From my wife's perspective, we were paying good money for help primarily with getting past her (my wife's) negative views of sex and she wanted ways of turning her thinking around.


See, to me that's not a sex therapist problem really. That sounds more like individual therapy for her, or couple therapy (which you are already having). "Negative views" is not a sexual dysfunction in my opinion.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> So that’s 180 from my take! Her reasons for firing her aligned with mine. She’s taking responsibility for things going wrong. And I certainly could have talked with her about things and still kept going, but this just wasn’t a match for “us” and it’s not just her. There is an “us” here.


YES, sort of, I guess, but CO...if she has this much insight, why is she still struggling so much with being a caring partner and meeting your needs...? If she would just engage with you (and her other therapy), you wouldn't need a sex therapist at all.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> YES, sort of, I guess, but CO...if she has this much insight, why is she still struggling so much with being a caring partner and meeting your needs...? If she would just engage with you (and her other therapy), you wouldn't need a sex therapist at all.


I agree. And in the OP there is that paragraph in blue. That's nothing to do with sex therapy. Put down her f'in iPad and give some attention to the relationship.... That's not sex. It's what LisaDiane said. She's just not a caring partner. I have said and still think, nothing is going to change that. You can spin your wheels for more years. There will be no magical personality transformation.


----------



## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

So the negative views on sex are connected to her strong religious beliefs? 

Negative views are hard to change, and if they came from her religion, then it's probably only there that she will find permission to change them again.
So yes, you do need a therapist that understands, and respects this.

There is a site called "to love honour and vacuum"
The lady who writes for it: Sheila Wray Gregoire, is a Christian who originally struggled with sex in her marriage.
She decided that if God had created sex to be part of marriage, that the problem was her not understanding sex.
So she researched, turned her sex life around and wrote a book called "The Good Girl's guide to great sex"
And she also writes about sex on her website.

I've no idea if its any good though as I haven't read the book, (it seems that women who have sex outside of marriage are "bad girls" , so not my kind of book at all  but wondered if this kind of site/book was ever any help in Christian marriages, as she seems quite popular as a christian blogger.

You may know of it already and have your own views on it.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> After spending $260/session, on average about 3x per month, for about six months so far I think? We were not seeing the results we would have liked and the therapist was giving us the "Well it takes time and it's cheaper seeing me than getting a divorce" line. But each session we tended to feel worse about our issues than better. It's tough to know when it's time to move on, because you're seeing an expert, trained to help you, right? But as things continued there were more and more times it seemed like our therapist had issues with men in general, and when I'd question a premise, I would be told not to interrupt. No matter whether the premise was something totally made up.
> 
> From my wife's perspective, we were paying good money for help primarily with getting past her (my wife's) negative views of sex and she wanted ways of turning her thinking around. Her big frustration was that the therapist wasn't talking to us much at all, but instead setting up situations in which we'd talk to each other about things we didn't like. Most of which is covered by our marriage counselor.  Below is the letter my wife sent to our therapist-


Don't bother finding another therapist. Your wife is pissed because she didn't get a magic bullet that would make sex more appealing than the iPad. What she needs to do is make the internal change so she sees that your sex life is importantbm and worth some personal sacrifice.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> A few thoughts.
> 
> First, a sex therapist is a marriage counselor with extra training in sexual issues. Some specialize in gender identity, some in sex addiction, some in gay sexual problems. You need to both know the "approach" to marriage counseling and their area of specialty in sex therapy.
> 
> ...


Wish I could “like” your post extra times. Excellent advice and we happen to be at a similar point (married 41 years, about when you sought an ST). We’ve learned and will be setting goals and timelines. And the fired ST did give us 5 recommendations to consider.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> Don't bother finding another therapist. Your wife is pissed because she didn't get a magic bullet that would make sex more appealing than the iPad. What she needs to do is make the internal change so she sees that your sex life is importantbm and worth some personal sacrifice.


My wife is pissed, because there's no magic bullet? Don't think so. She's incredibly avoidant and has been presented a couple "magic bullet" options should could have bought into, but essentially chose not to. Her inner voice tells her to just let things drag out as long as possible, going nowhere, hoping she can convince me the process isn't worth the effort. But she's now had several therapists tell her that's not actually workable plan. That her avoidance of things creates their own set of consequences, and she needs to look at the end result, not the process, as the important thing. If that makes sense. 

That the gap between where she is and where she needs to be is not sustainable, that's the key thing. But we're all creatures of habit and she can't understand why things could be a certain way for such a long time, and not now.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I agree. And in the OP there is that paragraph in blue. That's nothing to do with sex therapy. Put down her f'in iPad and give some attention to the relationship.... That's not sex. It's what LisaDiane said. She's just not a caring partner. I have said and still think, nothing is going to change that. You can spin your wheels for more years. There will be no magical personality transformation.


I’ve not followed closely enough what @CasualObserver has written about his wife over the years, but the significance of disengagement via iPad triggers a question CO: are you sure the inhibitions caused by her religious beliefs, or beliefs during her formative years, are a real and active problem she struggles with, or might they be just one more convenient rationalization in her mind for treating you poorly in this part of your relationship?

In my case, I have heard many alleged reasons/motives/justifications for my wife’s attention and touch being withheld. And after awhile, after none seem to provide traction towards a solution, they all start to seem like not the real root cause. “Because she doesn’t want to or care to” seems most plausible in my case.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’ve not followed closely enough what @CasualObserver has written about his wife over the years, but the significance of disengagement via iPad triggers a question CO: are you sure the inhibitions caused by her religious beliefs, or beliefs during her formative years, are a real and active problem she struggles with, or might they be just one more convenient rationalization in her mind for treating you poorly in this part of your relationship?
> 
> In my case, I have heard many alleged reasons/motives/justifications for my wife’s attention and touch being withheld. And after awhile, after none seem to provide traction towards a solution, they all start to seem like not the real root cause. “Because she doesn’t want to or care to” seems most plausible in my case.


It is without question that my wife has issues with self-awareness. She easily goes into a world all her own, in which there is no judgment. Nothing to question, nothing to consider but the card game she's playing. And when it's so easy to do that, just pick up the iPad and go into your own little world, a world without question, a world that doesn't allow your mind to wander because it's designed to capture you and convince you to spend a little coin to keep in the game, and it (the game) knows all about addiction...

But that's really not what this thread was about. It is my thread after all, and it was an observation about therapists and what goes into a decision to fire one.

But- there is now a central theme to it all, a realization of how everything got started, how she got there. It's not a popular theme here on TAM, because it involves a certain respect for Christianity that is not seen here much, and not just a respect but also an understanding of how some aspects of Christianity can be very damaging for some. My wife is in the category of some. That doesn't mean Christianity is bad. How it's presented may be though, and the extreme polarization she grew up with created a binary world for her, and once she dipped her toe into the "bad" side, there was no support for her in the Christian world. She was on her own.

And now we're back OT, as her life story is simply not one that traditional therapists can cope with. They want you to outgrow your feelings that what you did wasn't appropriate, which (obviously? duh?) means questioning your faith. And in many cases it's not your faith that is the problem, it's how that faith was presented and reinforced. The easy way out is for the therapist to tell you it's dumb to believe that way (not in so many words).


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> Just curious— is your wife aware you post here? Does she read your posts?





In Absentia said:


> You mean... does she know he has his secret diary here?


Cute! So my wife knows I've gone to a relationship site or two, looking for different ways of looking at my and her issues, and she's OK with complete anonymity because that fits in with her own style. Seeing a therapist and discussing real life in front of a real person has been the bigger challenge for her. Someone knows!!! Someone she might see on the street. Someone who might tell others. And truthfully, I'm very, very proud of the fact that this is now bothering her a whole lot less than it did before.


LisaDiane said:


> YES, sort of, I guess, but CO...if she has this much insight, why is she still struggling so much with being a caring partner and meeting your needs...? If she would just engage with you (and her other therapy), you wouldn't need a sex therapist at all.


If she chooses to lift herself out of her secret world, she can be a very insightful person. But it's really, really hard for her to engage with someone without any question directed at her being taking as judgmental, an attack on her, that sort of thing. So if she says something and you ask her to back it up, you have to be really careful; it's got to be said like "OK, I get some of that, but could you explain xxx? Got kind of lost there." Do not, ever, ask her "What makes you think that?"

So... I believe that we become more insightful, more aware, more empathetic, when we have back-and-forth conversations with others. She actively avoids practicing that. 

But again, we've gone a long way from dealing with sex therapist and how you know it's not working and why I thought it was cool that my wife and I were on the same page.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

There is nothing wrong with finding a new therapist. My wife and I have gone through more than I can keep track of, both individually and as a couple. Some therapists are quacks, some are not the right fit, and sometimes the therapist (or method) is outgrown. 

However, you also have to be realistic with your expectations and you need to choose the right type of therapy for whatever the issue is. My wife and I both have IC's, my wife has therapists that are seen in a group setting, I have an anger management therapist, we see a MC, and we've done sex therapy off and on. In my experience, they all have different roles and are useful at different times. 

A couple's sex therapist is a good tool IF there are no underlying personal issues OR if those issues have been dealt with or are being dealt with separately and enough progress has been made. 

Is your wife in IC? If not, that's probably where she should start (sex therapist's can be IC's as well, not just MC's). She needs to deal with the underlying issue individually first, then you can work on it as a couple. If she is in IC and it's not working, then it's either time for a new therapist or time to accept your wife doesn't want to change. I'm not saying it's one or the other, I'm not your wife so I couldn't possibly know.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bobert said:


> There is nothing wrong with finding a new therapist. My wife and I have gone through more than I can keep track of, both individually and as a couple. Some therapists are quacks, some are not the right fit, and sometimes the therapist (or method) is outgrown.
> 
> However, you also have to be realistic with your expectations and you need to choose the right type of therapy for whatever the issue is. My wife and I both have IC's, my wife has therapists that are seen in a group setting, I have an anger management therapist, we see a MC, and we've done sex therapy off and on. In my experience, they all have different roles and are useful at different times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the "been there" story. My wife has had an IC for some time, one she trusts, but that IC is moving on. We also have an MC and for maybe 4 or 5 months we had an ST. The IC & MC both encourage getting an ST because it was felt an ST might find a way to make my wife feel more comfortable with sexuality. But much of the conversation has run a bit against the grain and not had respect for her upbringing in a Christian church, and I think the next steps will be to find therapists that help to bridge that gap, rather than sever it. If that makes sense.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Casual Observer ,

It seems to me what might be a better fit for your wife is a Christian who understands the sacredness of married sexuality and is a sex therapist. Now, I do not honestly know if such a person exists, but it sounds like/seems to me that one of your wife's sticking points is being very, VERY traditional in her Christian viewpoints and skewing that into sort of "enjoying sex is bad." My guess is that it started off as a young child ("Sex is a sin" "Virginity is a virtue") and continued as a young woman ("I had sex! I'm sinful! I should not be enjoying this!") and then carried over into adulthood and for the past several decades has just become a pattern in her way of thinking: sex is not virtuous and should not be enjoyed in her mind. 

Thus, I would think a sex therapist who can help her see that sexuality is God-created and God-ordained, and that within the sanctity of marriage it is a beautiful gift to be enjoyed...I think such a person might truly help. The trick, in my opinion, is going to be finding such a person who also has a belief system similar to your wife's (for example, if your wife is evangelical and the ST you find is reformed, their theology might differ enough that your wife would dismiss the generally Biblical assistance).


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Although I totally believe that there are folks out there in the world who say/believe these kinds of things, in my 53 years, I've not met one. At least no one who openly admits to thinking this way.



Affaircare said:


> ...one of your wife's sticking points is being very, VERY traditional in her Christian viewpoints and skewing that into sort of *"enjoying sex is bad.*" My guess is that it started off as a young child ("Sex is a sin" "Virginity is a virtue") and continued as a young woman ("I had sex! I'm sinful! I should not be enjoying this!") and then carried over into adulthood and for the past several decades has just become a pattern in her way of thinking: sex is not virtuous and should not be enjoyed in her mind.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer ,
> 
> It seems to me what might be a better fit for your wife is a Christian who understands the sacredness of married sexuality and is a sex therapist. Now, I do not honestly know if such a person exists, but it sounds like/seems to me that one of your wife's sticking points is being very, VERY traditional in her Christian viewpoints and skewing that into sort of "enjoying sex is bad." My guess is that it started off as a young child ("Sex is a sin" "Virginity is a virtue") and continued as a young woman ("I had sex! I'm sinful! I should not be enjoying this!") and then carried over into adulthood and for the past several decades has just become a pattern in her way of thinking: sex is not virtuous and should not be enjoyed in her mind.
> 
> Thus, I would think a sex therapist who can help her see that sexuality is God-created and God-ordained, and that within the sanctity of marriage it is a beautiful gift to be enjoyed...I think such a person might truly help. The trick, in my opinion, is going to be finding such a person who also has a belief system similar to your wife's (for example, if your wife is evangelical and the ST you find is reformed, their theology might differ enough that your wife would dismiss the generally Biblical assistance).


We are on EXACTLY the same page; my wife today is letting her EMDR/IC person know she's going to be working with a Christian therapist shortly. The EMDR/IC person is retiring form therapy so it's a good time to move on, but thought it would be a good to let her (the EMDR/IC) therapist know about the change in direction.

This article speaks to my wife, and this is what we forwarded to her soon-to-be-former EMCR/IC- The Invisible Bond of Sex: Hope and Healing From Your Sexual Past - FamilyLife Canada This stuff is NOT politically correct and is readily dismissed by conventional therapists as something you should have grown out of. But this is who she was, this is the dual-life she lead then and to some extent continues to lead now. 

I do NOT support this as the universal view for all people for sexual behavior. But for some of us, it's appropriate.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Although I totally believe that there are folks out there in the world who say/believe these kinds of things, in my 53 years, I've not met one. At least no one who openly admits to thinking this way.


You should hear the crap my wife was told growing up. Nutjobs are out there, unfortunately.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

minimalME said:


> Although I totally believe that there are folks out there in the world who say/believe these kinds of things, in my 53 years, I've not met one. At least no one who openly admits to thinking this way.


[Mini threadjack] 

If you don't mind, let me give two examples of the kinds of folks out there in the world who think like this: one is EXTREME to the point of abuse, the other is just very strictly traditional:

1) EXTREME EXAMPLE: Mom and Dad are pillars of the Christian community, go to church every Sunday, Dad is an elder ... those kind of people. The denomination is one of the stricter ones (like Calvinist, speaking Latin Catholic, or WELS Lutheran). Mom and Dad have no PDA in front of the kids and from a very young age don't talk about bodies, biology, menstruation, puberty or sexuality--note I didn't say it was private: they do not talk about it. Bodies, feelings and curiousity about anything is SHAMED. And yet, Dad holds onto the girls just a little too long. "The Men" (Dad, Uncles, other church guys) have beers together and sniggle about women. Dad bathes the girls into their middle school years. And one day one daughter says Dad has been touching her...and she knows it's a horrible secret and sinful but she feels SOOO mixed up because it's also her father, someone she loves, and it feels good. 

This is a very extreme example of the kind of person who'd spout the very tradition Christian view that *"enjoying sex is bad"* but obviously what they're really doing is covering the fact they are committing a sexual crime. Mom probably has a gut feeling something isn't right but would rather deny it and continue pretending they are pillars in the community so she spouts it too. And the kids hear it and see it from mom and dad all the while being very confused by hearing one thing and then "doing" another with their own father. This is taken to the extreme but could also take place in much lesser degrees and still be really sexually damaging for the future of the kids.

2) Less Extreme Very Traditional Example: Very similar set up as above. Mom and Dad are pillars of the Christian community, go to church every Sunday, Dad is an elder, Mom teaches Sunday School, there's a church meeting every night of the week ... those kind of people. The denomination is one of the stricter ones but maybe more like a baptist, pentecostal, or presbyterian who repents every week. Mom and Dad have little PDA in front of the kids and from a very young age anything having to do with sexuality is all about purity or abstinence. There's DEFINITELY no demonstration that sex within marriage is joyous or beautiful, that couples can love and kiss and be physical, or that it is a gift--instead it's closer to shame that you have hormones that kick in. So instead of teaching the kids that sexuality was created by God and has ways of being sacred and beautiful, the kids learn that it is wrong to enjoy sex or to have a sexual feeling. 

[/threadjack]

@Casual Observer, I took a peek at that article you posted, and I'll admit that style of thinking is not likely to be very in line with what traditional counselors will espouse. Man it would be EXCELLENT if you could find a Christian counselor who also did EMDR, because you'd get that understanding of Christian struggle (even if they disagreed, they'd at least understand where it comes from), and also get the benefits of EMDR. I've done EMDR and it was HELPFUL!! Another style of therapy you may find helpful for an avoidant person is CBT (cognitive behavior therapy), because it helps the person notice their negative thoughts (like, identify "Oh I'm having one!"), and then learn how to challenge the negative thoughts to learn a healthier pattern.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer, I took a peek at that article you posted, and I'll admit that style of thinking is not likely to be very in line with what traditional counselors will espouse. Man it would be EXCELLENT if you could find a Christian counselor who also did EMDR, because you'd get that understanding of Christian struggle (even if they disagreed, they'd at least understand where it comes from), and also get the benefits of EMDR. I've done EMDR and it was HELPFUL!! Another style of therapy you may find helpful for an avoidant person is CBT (cognitive behavior therapy), because it helps the person notice their negative thoughts (like, identify "Oh I'm having one!"), and then learn how to challenge the negative thoughts to learn a healthier pattern.


Yes, we're still on the same page, beginning to end. The big advantage CBT would have is that it's continuous; improvement doesn't come in milestones where you can say there, I've done it, I can leave therapy now, I'm cured. Instead there's a continuing mission to become better and better. You're not thinking in terms of it being a struggle as much as a kind of change of mind, a new lifestyle, where motivation to get even better comes from your latest accomplishment. It also has the benefit of more-frequent interaction between therapist and patient. In every single way this would be a wonderful thing for my wife. But I doubt it's affordable; you're talking about a lot of time in an almost mentoring style of relationship. If I have it right.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> This article speaks to my wife, and this is what we forwarded to her soon-to-be-former EMCR/IC- The Invisible Bond of Sex: Hope and Healing From Your Sexual Past - FamilyLife Canada This stuff is NOT politically correct and is readily dismissed by conventional therapists as something you should have grown out of. But this is who she was, this is the dual-life she lead then and to some extent continues to lead now.


I'm not a Christian, and I am a therapist, and I have no problem with the linked article. No therapist should be readily dismissing the client's point of view, ever.

(As Screwtape has it: "The truth is that wherever a man lies with a woman, there, whether they like it or not, a transcendental relation is set up between them which must be eternally enjoyed or eternally endured.")


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> My wife is pissed, because there's no magic bullet? Don't think so. She's incredibly avoidant and has been presented a couple "magic bullet" options should could have bought into, but essentially chose not to. Her inner voice tells her to just let things drag out as long as possible, going nowhere, hoping she can convince me the process isn't worth the effort. But she's now had several therapists tell her that's not actually workable plan. That her avoidance of things creates their own set of consequences, and she needs to look at the end result, not the process, as the important thing. If that makes sense.
> 
> That the gap between where she is and where she needs to be is not sustainable, that's the key thing. But we're all creatures of habit and she can't understand why things could be a certain way for such a long time, and not now.


We are saying the same thing. By magic bullet I mean she wants a solution that involves no effort on her part. She hasn't accepted that change involves participation.

An anecdote: my kid had been seen by her school psychologist and her personal therapist fir some issues. After some time nothing had really changed. 

The reason? My kid admitted she liked being heard but had no drive to make the effort to change. Avoidant, deflected blame, etc.

That is what your wife is doing.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> We are saying the same thing. By magic bullet I mean she wants a solution that involves no effort on her part. She hasn't accepted that change involves participation.
> 
> An anecdote: my kid had been seen by her school psychologist and her personal therapist fir some issues. After some time nothing had really changed.
> 
> ...


That this is true doesn't mean it can't be changed. She has a strong will to remain married. She has given up on searching for a therapist who will tell her she can stay as she is and not worry about consequences. Consequences are something she's managed to avoid all her life, by creating false narratives, sometimes for others, sometimes for herself. 

What has changed, after being in therapy for 18 months or so? The therapists finally believed me, that the only way to get my wife to tell the truth, what she's really feeling, is to get her really, really mad/upset. Then it all comes out. Until that happens, her game is really solid. 

Maybe it's just a laid-back therapist community out here, too much into pleasing the client instead of helping them get better. I have seen some of that; I've seen it used on me sometimes and have had to tell them no, that's going down the wrong road, don't try to make me feel better in the moment, fix the long-term issue. Yes, I have long-term issues too, not just my wife. It doesn't matter whether she created them for me, or they've always been mind. They're still my own issues to be dealt with, and there's some really strange stuff I have to get rid of. The difference is that I'm fascinated by the process and want to get better, want to see things differently. If there's a more-painful way to do so that's faster, I'm all-in. Kind of anti-avoidant as it were. Which makes sense because I was taught questions are more important than answers, so your horizon is always expanding.

Oops. Rambling again!


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> She has a strong will to remain married. She has given up on searching for a therapist who will tell her she can stay as she is and not worry about consequences.


Is this true? Can she stay as she is and remain married? Or have you reached the point where you would consider leaving if she refuses to change? If you refuse to leave, what consequences are you willing to impose if your wife continues to be avoidant?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TJW said:


> The bible isn't negative about sex between married people. Only "christianity" is. It has always amazed me that so many "christians" do not really know what the bible says, their "religion" is vain and pharisaical, mostly based upon what they hear from other "christians" ( who also do not know the bible ).
> 
> It causes many to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Therapists are, unfortunately, no exception.
> 
> ...


After all God created us to be sexual beings. Christians who know God and know what the Bible says know that God created us to have and enjoy sex in marriage. After all there is a book in the Bible all about sex and its pretty erotic.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Is this true? Can she stay as she is and remain married? Or have you reached the point where you would consider leaving if she refuses to change? If you refuse to leave, what consequences are you willing to impose if your wife continues to be avoidant?


No, she can't stay as she is and remain married. Yes, I would leave. I think she (finally) gets that. It's a much longer process than it should be, but the next step she's taking, moving from "secular" counseling, is a pretty big thing. She's not had to face anything much tougher than people saying she was messed up to believe what she was doing was wrong. Nobody really got inside her head. She didn't have to deal with her issues directly, because the therapists by and large didn't see them as big issues.

It's all a very strange thing. I don't have an issue with premarital sex and multiple partners in general, but for some, depending upon how they were brought up, it can be a damaging thing with long-term consequences. She fits into that category; she was never able to reconcile her dual lives. Now she's going to be seeing someone she knew from Church many, many years ago, a professional counselor, Phd (degree in psychology, licensed MFT etc) with a Christian background, so my wife's story is going to become a whole lot more meaningful and impactful as its explored (more meaningful and impactful to my wife).

The Christian therapist is very inclusive; she recommended the book "God and the Conservative Christian Church" which is a very strong indictment against the "purity" culture while at the same time an extremely strong affirmation of the importance of God and a very positive view of sex in general, not strictly within marriage. 

So it's a new chapter. I'll be watching closely. But I'm not the same person I have been for many decades. The endless patience is gone. The love for my wife is still there, but the unconditional part of it is, what, mitigated? by the deception. The deception, the privacy, that has to end.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> After all God created us to be sexual beings. Christians who know God and know what the Bible says know that God created us to have and enjoy sex in marriage.* After all there is a book in the Bible all about sex and its pretty erotic.*


Bolding mine. But the fact that that book is there and yet so many Christians don't get it, see sex as something manipulative or to be minimized because such thoughts are seen as bad and take away from love of God instead of realization that sexuality is a gift from God... that by itself is evidence of the need for conversation, in some case, beyond husband and wife. You might find the book "The Invisible Bond- breaking free of your sexual past" of interest. Not for yourself; from reading your posts, I think you get it. But not everybody does.


----------

