# Ironic Trend #2?



## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Ok- trending post #2 I am seeing in greater frequency is the following, "my husband is up and down and so mean when he talks to me, borderline verbally abusive at least" What is verbal abuse? A raised voice, cussing, personal put downs - I can buy into the last one but not the first and would argue yet again something has changed for women. I've been with women who can put me down as easily as I could them. Are we creating too many 'thin skinned' people in the younger generations? Especially when, in some of these posts, they even point out the lack of frequency of the supposed events and the rest of the time things are great. What gives?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

IMO yes, we need to get back to the mantra of sticks and stones can break my bones, but words won't hurt me.... Or at least much closer to me not having to worry about accidentally hurting your feelings by stating something.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I agree. My SO is constantly saying how everyone nowadays is way too sensitive. No one lets anything roll off their backs anymore.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

McDean said:


> Ok- trending post #2 I am seeing in greater frequency is the following, "my husband is up and down and so mean when he talks to me, borderline verbally abusive at least" What is verbal abuse? A raised voice, cussing, personal put downs - I can buy into the last one but not the first and would argue yet again something has changed for women. I've been with women who can put me down as easily as I could them. Are we creating too many 'thin skinned' people in the younger generations? Especially when, in some of these posts, they even point out the lack of frequency of the supposed events and the rest of the time things are great. What gives?


I'm incredibly offended by your ''thin-skin-ism''…..all you people who aren't easily micro-aggressed need to check your privilege!

Seriously though, this is what happens when everyone gets a trophy at the T-Ball tournament.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't know... A man outweighing me by a significant amount, yelling in my face at the top of his lungs is extremely intimidating. If this scene happened with any sort of regularity, that would set up a threatening dynamic in the relationship. A dynamic such as that would cause the threatened spouse to behave in a very timid and cautious way so as not to set off the abuser. 

If you think that's being thin skinned, perhaps you yourself are an abuser?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know... A man outweighing me by a significant amount, yelling in my face at the top of his lungs is extremely intimidating. If this scene happened with any sort of regularity, that would set up a threatening dynamic in the relationship. A dynamic such as that would cause the threatened spouse to behave in a very timid and cautious way so as not to set off the abuser.
> 
> If you think that's being thin skinned, perhaps you yourself are an abuser?


I would agree that is abuse, but much of the other 'stuff' labeled as hate speech or not allowed to be spoken because it isn't PC, is ridiculous. There is a line out there that keeps moving to more PC, which is wrong. Your example is also wrong behavior on the other end of the spectrum. I think most people would agree with that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I would agree that is abuse, but much of the other 'stuff' labeled as hate speech or not allowed to be spoken because it isn't PC, is ridiculous. There is a line out there that keeps moving to more PC, which is wrong. Your example is also wrong behavior on the other end of the spectrum. I think most people would agree with that.


But the OP wasn't talking about PC speech in various settings. He was talking about the watering down of the definition of abusive relationships based on his perspective that people are too thin skinned. The OP even specified that a raised voice was not abusive, in his opinion. 

Of course my example was abusive and anyone who disagrees with that is probably an abuser!

The PC line isn't based on people being thin skinned, it's based on people being less stupid! It used to be a non issue to refer to a ***** as "colored" while the term "******" was always seen as, derogatory, hateful and hurtful. But today using the term "colored" to refer to African American is seen as a sign of being a backward nincompoop!

If you think it is ridiculous to teach better manners, to expect people to be more sensitive in their speech, to be more inclusive and less derogatory..than you sir...might be a *******.

And here I am, using words like stupid, nincompoop, (love that word BTW) and ******* to refer to people who are averse to being challenged about their thinking and speech patterns. This is a shaming tactic used to encourage compliance with community standards. In return, those being shamed fire back with terms like "thought police" and "too PC" or "thin skinned" because they don't want to appear to be in the wrong. The true test of their insistence that others are too thin skinned is to ask how often they use these derogatory terms in the presence of others, say at work or at church or at a party. If they don't, then they must know on some level that they are, indeed, wrong in their thinking and speech patterns...but they still like to b!tch about it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know... *A man outweighing me by a significant amount, yelling in my face at the top of his lungs is extremely intimidating*. If this scene happened with any sort of regularity, that would set up a threatening dynamic in the relationship. A dynamic such as that would cause the threatened spouse to behave in a very timid and cautious way so as not to set off the abuser.
> 
> If you think that's being thin skinned, perhaps you yourself are an abuser?


You may be right. And it may explain why there aren't many seargent-recruit love affairs in boot camp.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Just my opinion, AP, is that the OP was not talking about actual abuse like you described, but what is considered to be abuse, is just words, and not anywhere near what you described.

People just get too offended now a days. Abuse is abuse, but getting offended at what someone says, that is not screaming/ranting cussing at you, but just stating a belief or opinion that you don't agree with is not abuse.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> Just my opinion, AP, is that the OP was not talking about actual abuse like you described, but what is considered to be abuse, is just words, and not anywhere near what you described.
> 
> People just get too offended now a days. Abuse is abuse, but getting offended at what someone says, that is not screaming/ranting cussing at you, but just stating a belief or opinion that you don't agree with is not abuse.


Go back and read the OP. As I read it, he is talking about relationships being too easily termed verbally abusive and questions what verbal abuse actually is. Well it actually is yelling, taunts, insults, threats, coercive language, being physically in the other persons space while doing these things. It's not that these things are in themselves abusive, it's that there is a clear pattern of not respecting the other persons senses, or space while doing those behaviors.

I can hurl an insult pretty damn well and like to think of myself as a strong woman, but I would absolutely cower if my husband ever got in my space and yelled.

As a loud mouth who has on multiple occasions offended others inadvertently, most of the time, I still don't agree. Oh I've come across my fair share of thin skinned people who need to grow a pair, but I recognize the many times my voice, or word choice, can be a bit piercing even for those who are not thin skinned.

From what I've experienced, people get most offended when someone corrects them or says they are wrong. Those are the really thin skinned people! They totally get on my nerves! "How dare you suggest I'm wrong! I am never wrong!"

People may/might be offended when offensive language is used, but generally they walk away shaking their head or come right back at the offender. Neither of these responses are thin skinned responses, IMO.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

You may avoid calling some nasty words and behaviors 'abusive", but you cannot avoid the fact that they will corode your relationship. 

And yes, I think those who complain about "too thin skin" are those who just enjoy saying whatever they want, and not considering how does that make their loved one feel.

I've hear for twenty years that I am "too sensitive". It was so much 'fun", that D is hanging now over us.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

McDean said:


> Ok- trending post #2 I am seeing in greater frequency is the following, "my husband is up and down and so mean when he talks to me, borderline verbally abusive at least" What is verbal abuse? A raised voice, cussing, personal put downs - I can buy into the last one but not the first and would argue yet again something has changed for women. I've been with women who can put me down as easily as I could them. Are we creating too many 'thin skinned' people in the younger generations?


Not wanting to get yelled at is thin skinned? I thought it was just mature. Why would anyone want to be with anyone who yelled or put them down?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

McDean said:


> Ok- trending post #2 I am seeing in greater frequency is the following, "my husband is up and down and so mean when he talks to me, borderline verbally abusive at least" What is verbal abuse? A raised voice, cussing, personal put downs...


What do you mean by "raised voice"? Do you mean going up a decibel or two, or do you mean LOUD? 

Cussing and personal put downs are abusive, IMO. Someone calling names, "c*nt", "stupid b*tch", "you suck, you're worthless"- yeah, that's abusive. 



> ... I can buy into the last one but not the first and would argue yet again something has changed for women.


What has changed is that women no longer have to put up with it, they can and do leave. 



> I've been with women who can put me down as easily as I could them.


Yup, women can be emotionally abusive too. It's not limited to Y chromosome carriers. 



> Are we creating too many 'thin skinned' people in the younger generations? Especially when, in some of these posts, they even point out the lack of frequency of the supposed events and the rest of the time things are great. What gives?


If you (general you, male and female both included) repeatedly hurt your spouse with your words, intent, physicality, then that spouse will be waiting for you to do it again. If (general) you do it once a month, once a year, etc. it will leave your spouse unable to trust you. This is how people end up "walking on eggshells."

Now, if you want to argue that the world has gone "too PC" then that is a different conversation, IMO. I expect my husband to treat me much better than my co-workers, boss, friends, etc.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

To be clear, if someone yelled at you all the time that would be abusive and bat $hit crazy to boot. But what if it happened once per year? Could be a simple human frailty. Size in intimidation tells me you think men will turn physical simply because we are bigger? I would not turn physical but I can dish it out verbally as well as I take it. 

As for the argument of maturity, I don't frankly know of anyone who 'never' yells ever? If they exist they are probably great to be around but I wonder if they have any inner fire or passion if nothing said or done to them could ever produce a cuss word or a raised voice

And in many ways this does tie to PC talk because here again if you tell anyone something direct you run the risk of being a big meany! 

Thin skinned = I can't handle the truth so I will deflect by saying your raised voice is abusive and disrespectful. Or, I can't handle the truth that I really am not the best "fill in the blank" and so you're a big jerk.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

McDean said:


> To be clear, if someone yelled at you all the time that would be abusive and bat $hit crazy to boot. But what if it happened once per year? Could be a simple human frailty.


If someone yells once a year, I doubt that there will be a thread on TAM with the spouse saying the yeller is Abusive. Usually the person who yells does it often as a very poor coping skill. 



> Size in intimidation tells me you think men will turn physical simply because we are bigger? I would not turn physical but I can dish it out verbally as well as I take it.


Yes, when someone is angry and flips their sh1t they generally have lost it. You don't really know what they will do.

To be clear- I am talking about someone who is going off, cursing, flailing. I am not talking about a parent yelling at a child "STOP CLIMBING ON THE COUCH!" I am talking about a spouse yelling at the other "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE YOU STUPID EFFIN BTCH". 



> As for the argument of maturity, I don't frankly know of anyone who 'never' yells ever? If they exist they are probably great to be around but I wonder if they have any inner fire or passion if nothing said or done to them could ever produce a cuss word or a raised voice.


There are some people who don't yell, or do so very rarely. It's not a matter of passion, it is a matter of emotional maturity and coping skills. 

People who yell often, usually don't realize the effect they have on people. There is a book called "Love Busters" that discusses the things that people do which actually kill the love of their spouse. Angry Outbursts are #1. 

Additionally, angry outbursts are one of the first things that many men start to realize they did wrong in their relationships once women leave or make a serious threat to do so. Their relationships with their spouses and kids get much better once they get their anger under control. (I haven't seen too many threads where the husband leaves because of angry outbursts from the wife but I suspect there's at least one somewhere on here.)

It is a choice to yell, to have an outburst. No one can "make" you yell. Of course we all experience things that are difficult, which generate anger, but not every one will yell about it. There are many, many people who will yell at their spouse, at their child, who will never yell during work, for instance. They won't yell in a restaurant, which is why people will sometimes go out to eat when they want to give someone bad news. 



> And in many ways this does tie to PC talk because here again if you tell anyone something direct you run the risk of being a big meany!
> 
> Thin skinned = I can't handle the truth so I will deflect by saying your raised voice is abusive and disrespectful. Or, I can't handle the truth that I really am not the best "fill in the blank" and so you're a big jerk.


Your spouse is supposed to get special care. To have a good marriage, spouses need to provide care/meet emotional needs and avoid "love busting", avoid doing things that will tank the love your spouse feels for you. Spouses in strong marriages treat each other differently than they treat other people (in more areas that just the bedroom.) 

Outside of marriage, people can give bad news, difficult criticism, and/or negative feedback in a way that is calm and respectful. That is actually often the most powerful way to deliver it. It's a skill that can be learned, and people with good relationship skills excel at it. On TAM people have referred to being able to get to a neutral place, even in adverse situations, as "getting to 50,000 feet" and staying "calm, cool, collected". 

So if you're yelling "the truth" at someone, then you are using an ineffectual delivery system IMO. People don't hear "the truth", they hear someone yelling at them. You ARE being a Big Jerk if you're yelling at them. That's not PC at work, it's just human nature.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

McDean said:


> To be clear, if someone yelled at you all the time that would be abusive and bat $hit crazy to boot. But what if it happened once per year? Could be a simple human frailty. Size in intimidation tells me you think men will turn physical simply because we are bigger? I would not turn physical but I can dish it out verbally as well as I take it.
> 
> As for the argument of maturity, I don't frankly know of anyone who 'never' yells ever? If they exist they are probably great to be around but I wonder if they have any inner fire or passion if nothing said or done to them could ever produce a cuss word or a raised voice
> 
> ...


I can't think of a single time my husband has yelled at me. Yelling is not necessary for being direct, which he is very good at.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can't think of a single time my husband has yelled at me. Yelling is not necessary for being direct, which he is very good at.


Interesting. In general is averse to it? Are you? Maybe it's how I was raised but I played every sport under the sun and coaches yelled all the time. I heard my parents yell (mom in particular but still very rare even then)....none of this beats me down or throws me into a depression or tells me the other person is evil or whatever....

What would your husband do if in his attempt to be direct and not yell he felt he had to tell you the same thing is bothering him 10 times in a row? Part of the escalation in arguing is when people don't feel they are being heard which naturally leads to speaking louder....lastly, some people don't yell because in the end they don't care - no point getting worked up when I honestly don't care how things turn out (totally not applying this to your husband).....

Again, not talking about every day or week or even month but the occasional and if that truly sends someone running for the hills it smacks of weakness to me, IMOP.....

For sure on the PC front, thinking you will get through to everyone with direct talk is a fools errand now that we have entire generations that think they are above reproach....


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think verbal abuse is very real since I grew up hearing it, and still hear it, and it's sickening. However, there are people out there who think that someone telling them something they don't want to hear is abuse. 

Here is an example of what I consider verbal abuse that I've seen in my lifetime: husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. Husband gets instantly angry and aggressive in his manner and calls her stupid.

An example of a person who just doesn't want to hear something: woman is asked in a completely reasonable manner to consider seeing a therapist for her hoarding problem before and during an attempt by her family to assist her in clearing out some of her house. Woman calls the person an "elder abuser".


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

McDean said:


> Interesting. In general is averse to it? Are you? Maybe it's how I was raised but I played every sport under the sun and coaches yelled all the time. I heard my parents yell (mom in particular but still very rare even then)....none of this beats me down or throws me into a depression or tells me the other person is evil or whatever....


I am not a fan of yelling. I would not choose to be in any relationship that included that as part of regular communication. It does not beat me down or cause anything in me except a desire to not be present. So not present is what I would be.

As far as coaching goes, I only remember volume so as to be heard across the field or whatever. Put downs generally don't motivate people toward positive things.




> What would your husband do if in his attempt to be direct and not yell he felt he had to tell you the same thing is bothering him 10 times in a row?


Why would I not listen to him the first time? Or the second if I was being daffy about the importance of his issue? That said, if for some reason I needed a whack with a clue by four, I suspect he would write me a note to impress the importance.




> Part of the escalation in arguing is when people don't feel they are being heard which naturally leads to speaking louder....lastly, some people don't yell because in the end they don't care - no point getting worked up when I honestly don't care how things turn out (totally not applying this to your husband).....


Some people don't yell because it is not a kind or effective method of communication. If the only way to get through to someone is to yell at them, then there are bigger problems.



> Again, not talking about every day or week or even month but the occasional and if that truly sends someone running for the hills it smacks of weakness to me, IMOP.....


I am not sure why the frequency is important. One of the most important choices a person makes in their lives is whom they want to live it with. Surrounding oneself with angry people is just not a choice I would make.



> For sure on the PC front, thinking you will get through to everyone with direct talk is a fools errand now that we have entire generations that think they are above reproach....


I don't give a flying poop about PC or what anyone thinks of anyone else.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

breeze said:


> I think verbal abuse is very real since I grew up hearing it, and still hear it, and it's sickening. However, there are people out there who think that someone telling them something they don't want to hear is abuse.
> 
> Here is an example of what I consider verbal abuse that I've seen in my lifetime: husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. Husband gets instantly angry and aggressive in his manner and calls her stupid.
> 
> An example of a person who just doesn't want to hear something: woman is asked in a completely reasonable manner to consider seeing a therapist for her hoarding problem before and during an attempt by her family to assist her in clearing out some of her house. Woman calls the person an "elder abuser".


Good examples, let me tweak to illustrate....

Example 1: Husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later she asks again and he tells her to get her $hit together - not abuse but a needed wake up call on her part I would say.

Example 2: Husband tells his wife she's stupid because she spent all their savings and he was mad...still not abuse, unless you consider her act abusive?

Example 3: Husband is direct in telling his wife she has a spending problem, wife ignores him - she is abusive (to the relationship at least)

Example 4: Husband is direct in telling his wife she has a spending problem, she listens and acknowledges and then still calls her stupid - abusive....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

McDean said:


> Good examples, let me tweak to illustrate....
> 
> Example 1: Husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later she asks again and he tells her to get her $hit together - not abuse but a needed wake up call on her part I would say.
> 
> ...


Who cares what you call it. They are both jerks. I am trying to understand why anyone would call someone they supposedly love stupid. I am trying to understand why anyone would accept someone with a consistent spending problem. Does one wrong make the other wrong right? I don't think so. I think both of these people need their heads checked.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

Over the course of 15 years my exh and I attended 3 marriage counselors. The first on threatened to stop the session if he didn't speak nicer. He was quite demanding and forceful to the counselor about his needs, it was all in his tone. The second counselor stopped the session and told him he needed to talk "nicer" to me, again his tone was angry. The sad thing was, he was being nicer. I was actually thinking "I wished he talked to me Luke this all the time". The third counselor just out right called him abusive. There was no screaming or yelling, no name calling in these sessions, just how he would be angry and condescending. At home it was worse, yelling, swearing, put downs, etc. He would corner me in a room , lean two inches from my face and scream. It's funny, he always told me I was "too sensitive" and "overreacting". Imho, we need to be concerned about labelling someone "thin skinned". Sometimes the abuser uses this label to their advantage. I never knew how bad it was until I sought outside help.

Remember, domestic abutse victims become hand shy, after years of being verbally attacked, one simply needs a "tone" in their voice to indicate an attack is about to ensue. To an outsider one may appear "thin skinned", but after years we see a green light for an attack .


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I think Mr. McDean, maybe you need to re-consider your communication skills? You seem to justify yelling and name calling when things do not go your way (as per your examples) . You should say that wife made "stupid' decison about spending all the money, but if you say or think she IS Stupid, then I suggest divorce.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> IMO yes, we need to get back to the mantra of sticks and stones can break my bones, but words won't hurt me.... Or at least much closer to me not having to worry about accidentally hurting your feelings by stating something.


The verbal abuse I've suffered during my marriage made the situation untenable and I left my husband 10 days ago to move into my own place. Since then, I've found out so many things that he has said behind my back that prove that our marriage had absolutely no chance of succeeding right from the start. He recently told a friend that he's not bothered if I leave him as he's so confident that he'll manage to get another woman straight away - that proves to me that he didn't commit to the marriage at all. On nights out with one of his friends recently he's chatted up other women (before I had left when he was begging me for one more chance), said that his sexual preference is to pick up a couple and f**k the woman in front of her husband (another demonstration to me that whatever he claimed, sex with me just didn't do it for him), and told friends about his sexual preferences (which I knew nothing about despite trying so hard for such a long time to find out what they were) which leave me convinced that we are totally sexually incompatible (which he denied when I tried to talk to him about it). 

The verbal abuse has been relentless throughout our marriage, with all sorts of threats against me and my family (threatening to slash my sister's face with a utility knife), he called my mother a c**t. I finally left when the abuse became physical - it only happened once (he pushed me) but that was enough to convince me that his unacceptable behaviour was escalating and that I would end up being hurt if I stayed.

Words do hurt, often as much as actions do. Words can destroy a relationship just as easily as any other form of abuse can. I haven't been over sensitive and I'm not the younger generation - I'm in my fifties. I can honestly say that I never say anything unless I mean it - I just don't have the capacity to say hurtful things to people in that way, not even in retaliation. There are loads of hurtful things I could have said to my H during our marriage, but I refuse to stoop that low and become a nasty person that uses barbed words to hurt.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

McDean said:


> Ok- trending post #2 I am seeing in greater frequency is the following, "my husband is up and down and so mean when he talks to me, borderline verbally abusive at least" What is verbal abuse? A raised voice, cussing, personal put downs - I can buy into the last one but not the first and would argue yet again something has changed for women. I've been with women who can put me down as easily as I could them. Are we creating too many 'thin skinned' people in the younger generations? Especially when, in some of these posts, they even point out the lack of frequency of the supposed events and the rest of the time things are great. What gives?


There is no hidden trend here. Abuse is abuse, verbal or otherwise. If there is a trend, it's a trend where the abused are saying "no more." Good for them! Everyone needs to be treated with respect, male or female. End of story.

We all need to deal with anger without effecting the people around us. If I get pissed (and I do) I just shut up, go to the barn or whatever and cool off till I can converse logically. A man who cannot control his temper is not a man. IMO.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

McDean said:


> Good examples, let me tweak to illustrate....
> 
> Example 1: Husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later she asks again and he tells her to get her $hit together - not abuse but a needed wake up call on her part I would say.


I would say that the wife is avoiding the question. Telling her to "get her sh!t together" is not going to likely end up getting the husband an honest answer. It just shows the wife that the husband is a d!ck.




> Example 2: Husband tells his wife she's stupid because she spent all their savings and he was mad...still not abuse, unless you consider her act abusive?


It might not be "abusive" but it's very poor coping and again, another choice that will lead to the wife shutting down. It is completely disrespectful.



> Example 3: Husband is direct in telling his wife she has a spending problem, wife ignores him - she is abusive (to the relationship at least)


This is another great example of a disrespectful judgement. I would ignore my husband if he told me I had a spending problem, too. Or, if I wanted to use his tactics back on him, I might tell him "You have an EARNING problem. If you were a REAL man, you would be able to provide adequately for your family. Get your sh!t together! You're so stupid!"

In neither case will the spouse respond, you know what, honey? You're right. I will stop spending/run out and get a 2nd job. Instead there is going to be distance between the two or a fight. Very poor coping/communication skills. 

The truth is, YOU have a problem with her spending. And it could be a very legit problem, she might be spending over your family budget. 

So own it. "I am not comfortable with the amount you're spending." And go from there. Maybe you can work out a budget together. Maybe it is extreme and you need to separate finances. Maybe you end up divorcing over it. But it is YOUR problem and you want her help in solving it. 

BTW by calling her "stupid" you are implicitly saying that YOUR way is the RIGHT way, and her thoughts/feelings/desires are worthless. Right? Because she is stupid. This suggests that YOU are the Smart one.

Not so smart, really. Dig?



> Example 4: Husband is direct in telling his wife she has a spending problem, she listens and acknowledges and then still calls her stupid - abusive....


Same as above. 

There is really no situation where it is OK to call your spouse "stupid" or tell him/her "You need to get your sh!t together."

It's a free country and all, so of course you CAN say whatever you want.

But, if you want to have a close relationship with your spouse, you'll improve your communication, empathy, relationship skills.

I agree that women tend to take name calling, yelling, etc. to heart more than men do. And this is why many women leave their men. It usually falls under "neglect". The men have neglected to show care for their wives. The men call their wives names, feel justified in it because as far as they are concerned, their way is the right away and the woman is "stupid" if she disagrees. 

And the woman does disagree. But she probably won't tell him about it, he isn't open to hearing about it, feeling that all she will get is more name calling. 

This is another thing we see here often in threads where the husband gets here and the wife has walked away. She hasn't told him about it. Or she did, a while back, then went silent. Why would she say any more? He has already shown her just what he thinks of her thoughts/feelings/wants. 

And the men get pissed off saying that the Woman did not Communicate properly. If they had only known they would have made changes sooner! 

(And we see this with women, regarding sex, when their men leave.) 

We just really need better education on relationships, IMO.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

McDean said:


> Good examples, let me tweak to illustrate....
> 
> Example 1: Husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later she asks again and he tells her to get her $hit together - not abuse but a needed wake up call on her part I would say.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are trying to illustrate, but yes, an angry person will always feel they have a reason for being angry. How they then treat other people while feeling anger is really the issue isn't it?

I think what this points out is that we all know people can and will be verbally abusive. What you're trying to say is that sometimes it's okay considering the circumstances. Well, change it into physical abuse for the moment to see if the same rule applies. Is it ever okay for a spouse to physically harm their spouse (assuming not in self-defence)? Most people would say 'no' to that question, I hope. Is any type of abuse okay then? Imo, no. If one partner has an issue with how the other is spending money, is it at all helpful to call them stupid? No. The only benefit might be in making the abuser feel superior or to inflict hurt on their spouse as a punishment. Anything done with ill intent, and that is all forms of verbal abuse, I would consider unnecessary and ineffective forms of communication, and most often detrimental to the health of a relationship.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

breeze said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to illustrate, but yes, an angry person will always feel they have a reason for being angry. How they then treat other people while feeling anger is really the issue isn't it?
> 
> I think what this points out is that we all know people can and will be verbally abusive. What you're trying to say is that sometimes it's okay considering the circumstances. Well, change it into physical abuse for the moment to see if the same rule applies. Is it ever okay for a spouse to physically harm their spouse (assuming not in self-defence)? Most people would say 'no' to that question, I hope. Is any type of abuse okay then? Imo, no. If one partner has an issue with how the other is spending money, is it at all helpful to call them stupid? No. The only benefit might be in making the abuser feel superior or to inflict hurt on their spouse as a punishment. Anything done with ill intent, and that is all forms of verbal abuse, I would consider unnecessary and ineffective forms of communication, and most often detrimental to the health of a relationship.


the problem is that the definition of verbal abuse is not as clear cut as physical abuse. Some of what is construed as verbal abuse today really isn't, at least relative to standards even 10 years ago.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

When it comes to marriage, if it's in a gray area...stay out of the gray area. If your spouse thinks you are mistreating them, why argue the point? Just don't do it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> the problem is that the definition of verbal abuse is not as clear cut as physical abuse. Some of what is construed as verbal abuse today really isn't, at least relative to standards even 10 years ago.


People used to stay in marriage even if they were unhappy and mistreated. Now more and more they refuse to accept it. Believe me, those nasty words hurt as much as they hurt today.

Do you like to being called names? Or being yelled at? being dismissed? Does it feel good?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

McDean said:


> Good examples, let me tweak to illustrate....
> 
> Example 1: Husband asks wife a question. Wife doesn't immediately know the answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later he asks again, she still can't answer. A day later she asks again and he tells her to get her $hit together - not abuse but a needed wake up call on her part I would say.
> 
> ...


I don't yell. In fact, I rarely yell at my dog, daughter, cat, etc. If I do it is a matter of urgency, not anger. Because I am in control of my anger even though I still get mad.

My ex was the exact example doobie gave. Good riddance. If I have PTSD it's my aversion to yelling. Yelling is only needed for communication over distances or noise, not to communicate anger or emotion, even when completely exasperated. (ETA that does not mean one can't scream an expletive after dropping something heavy on one's foot!)

Example 1: Cursing is not OK; cursing at me is not OK. Pointing out a perceived or real inadequacy in an angry or loud manner due to frustration is not OK. Instead "Hon, I'm REALLY frustrated that you can answer me on this. Do you not know or are you avoiding answering me? Do you intend to find out the answer before I ask again and that just hasn't happened so you think saying nothing at all is better? It's not."

Example 2: Calling names is NOT OK. EVER. People don't put down people they love. Calling others names is something we strive to tell little kids to not do. We tell kids it's bullying. Why would it be OK for people who are supposed to love each other? Instead "Hon, I cannot believe you jeopardized our financial security like this! Did you think I wouldn't find out or that it was OK?" 

Example 3: Continuing along the same lines... "If you won't even talk to me about this so we can come to an agreement on finances, I'll have no choice but to put you on a budget with a separate account and no credit cards. Let's come up with a plan." (I think the wife is not being VERBALLY abusive, but her actions are detrimental to the marriage and should be addressed.)

Example 4: Obviously abusive. See comment regarding name calling in example 2.

So in your examples I personally perceive 1, 2 and 4 verbally abusive. Do you realize how much 'love' drains out of the 'love bucket' when you call a spouse a name? Personally mine is instantly empty and it takes a long time to get it full again. 

A sergeant calling a recruit a name is different than a husband/wife. Although I don't CARE for name calling at all, with a husband/wife (or between any two people who love each other such as parent/child) there is a vulnerability and a trust that you don't intentionally hurt one another - with words or in any other way. As adults we can be expected to hold our tongue and not say things that hurt intentionally from being mean-spirited.

That doesn't mean we never hurt someone we love intentionally. Including many threads here about weight. Someone can call their spouse fat and that is hurtful and wrong. Someone can tell their spouse they are concerned about the increase in weight. That still hurts but isn't mean-spirited. Just like addressing spending - it might hurt someone's feelings to say they are irresponsible with money but it isn't mean-spirited. Whereas telling the spouse they need to get their sh*t together is not acceptable.

ETA - there are obviously levels of verbal abuse. Some empty the love bucket immediately and cause fear and extreme upset. Others are merely a little offensive. But why should we be offensive to people we love just because we cannot be bothered to control our words?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> People used to stay in marriage even if they were unhappy and mistreated. Now more and more they refuse to accept it. Believe me, those nasty words hurt as much as they hurt today.
> 
> Do you like to being called names? Or being yelled at? being dismissed? Does it feel good?


I totally get where you are coming from. No I don't like those things, however, lets say I do something stupid like forget to pick up a kid after practice and said kids calls the W, who calls me an idiot and what not. Rarely to never happens that she yells and calls me names, I messed up, I need to accept that what I did caused her reaction. Was her reaction abuse? IMO, no, unless she doesn't drop it, gets physical over it, etc. 

Very similarly, one could easily argue that people get way to offended in every day conversation.

This is a topic where there are shades of grey. the OP's original post was interpreted way different by me than others on this thread. rereading it, I see where they are coming from, but I don't think that intent was the intent of the OP.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Being called an idiot for being human and forgetting? Geez, that brings back memories. And not good ones. How about "Hon that was REALLY important! I'm sure you realize how upsetting that was to the kids and me - we were worried/scared. Next time can you put a reminder on your phone in the calendar app?"

Maybe I'm easily offended. Or maybe there wouldn't be the degree of violence and divorce if people communicated with those they love in a compassionate and loving manner.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> I totally get where you are coming from. No I don't like those things, however, lets say I do something stupid like forget to pick up a kid after practice and said kids calls the W, who calls me an idiot and what not. Rarely to never happens that she yells and calls me names, I messed up, I need to accept that what I did caused her reaction. Was her reaction abuse? IMO, no, unless she doesn't drop it, gets physical over it, etc.
> 
> Very similarly, one could easily argue that people get way to offended in every day conversation.
> 
> This is a topic where there are shades of grey. the OP's original post was interpreted way different by me than others on this thread. rereading it, I see where they are coming from, but I don't think that intent was the intent of the OP.


No, I do not think this was ok for her to call you an idiot. Yes, you are supposed to own the fact that you screw up, and she has right to be angry about that. But not to call names. 

I find it very disturbing that many today's sitcom use name calling, condensation, etc, as way to raise laughter. This is what young people getting from them, that this is funny. Until it happens to them. There also seem (on TV and in real life) this permission for women to call their husbands idiot, etc, while showing their superiority, while not the other way. I think this very wrong. How are you supposed to keep fundaments of your relationship strong, when you let leaks like this erode it?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> No, I do not think this was ok for her to call you an idiot. Yes, you are supposed to own the fact that you screw up, and she has right to be angry about that. But not to call names.
> 
> I find it very disturbing that many today's sitcom use name calling, condensation, etc, as way to raise laughter. This is what young people getting from them, that this is funny. Until it happens to them. There also seem (on TV and in real life) this permission for women to call their husbands idiot, etc, while showing their superiority, while not the other way. I think this very wrong. How are you supposed to keep fundaments of your relationship strong, when you let leaks like this erode it?


I guess sticks and stones apply here, at least to me.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Wow everyone, great responses - no blowing smoke here either! In full disclosure I am in therapy to work on my anger. As it turns out I'm semi-functional (per my counselor) in that I only have one or two incidents per year but holy cow can they be bad. I've come to realize that I'm actually not the norm, that those of you who think it is never ok and cussing is poor judgement in dealing with your significant other etc are the norm. Purely to give you a feel for some of us on the other side I will share a little detail. 

I love my wife, my family, my friends etc...and mean it fully. Even in my few but intense moments (never physical by the way) I never 'believed what I said' but said it to- what I my counselor has described as 'getting them to hear the urgency in what I am trying to tell them', typically because I felt I wasn't being heard - some of the time it was probably true and others imagined on my part. If you asked my wife what she thought of me she would say I am a great husband and father, guy, leader, etc. but this one point is a scarlet letter and does wear you down over time. I know I'm not the most extreme case but much further along than the norm. As I've started to hear how it impacted her and others and upon learning it's not normal I've felt pretty low about it all. Not as an excuse and sadly, not as an exaggeration, I did not grow up around the norm at all in any way shape or form. I was always proud that I wasn't physically abusive given how many fights I was in as a young man - haven't been in one in over 15 years....how the cycle of 6-8 months started is still a mystery to me....but I'm working to break it once and for all.

Nobody - agree in the scenario I gave of someone yelling and someone not responding - they are both jerks.
WandaJ- fully admit my communication skills, under anger at least, are adolescent at best - said because I am a great communicator in most other scenarios per feedback I get from others, at work etc...
RoseAglow - loved a lot of what you had to say, my calling someone stupid however is rarely because I believe my way is the 'right' way....it's more a less a reflexive response to someone I am angry with....it's more basic.
Enjoliwoman - Sounds to me like your ex might be in a more extreme place that I am/was - that being said, I grew up with people like him. Every physical fight started with a verbal escalation (there is my base for learned behavior) and if not resolved through the verbal turned physical. My mom was a yeller. My grandfather as well but here's the rub - in every other way you would think they rock, my grandfather was actually a genius yet has picked this behavior up as well. Add to it my home town environment and here I am...

Still, I think this leads me to another question - those of you who take the high road in your conversation - if you have to tell the person you love several times there is something you like or don't like or whatever and they keep going, what do you do? Based on some other responses in this thread it's another form of abuse potentially, or neglect - should someone walk and after how long?

Too many great posts to call you all out but will simply say, thank you!


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## hotshotdot (Jul 28, 2015)

I think the trend is that more people are recognizing what verbal/emotional abuse is. It's easy to identify physical abuse but not necessarily verbal or emotional abuse. 

I didn't recognize my first husband as abusive (because he never hit me) until I was so beat down that I was suicidal & sought help. That's when I finally realized the cycle of abuse that had taken over our lives. Even at that point he wasn't calling me names, but the controlling, criticizing, screaming in my face, breaking & throwing things, punching holes in walls, & breaking down doors so I couldn't get away from his rage, were all forms of abuse. But I didn't know it at the time. I thought if I were a better wife then he wouldn't be so angry at me. Honestly, I read so many relationship books I could write my own book yet I still didn't pick up on the part of the intro to almost every book that says this will not work in an abusive relationship. And had it been a once every 6 months thing I might still be married (I stayed for 10 more years as it was). I just didn't know that it was abuse because it wasn't physical. I blamed myself for a very long time (he blamed me for everything so it was easy to put the blame on myself) before I learned that I was in fact being abused.

I think there are a lot more resources now (with the internet) that have helped people identify the other types of abuse besides physical abuse. It's not quite as hard to explain to people anymore how I was being abused like it was back then. So maybe it isn't so much that there's more of it happening, or more accusations because people are thin-skinned (although I do believe that in general people are both much more free to hurl insults nowadays & more easily offended) but it could be the result of being better able to identify abuse.

That said, it is good that you recognize that your "once in a while" outbursts are not normal & are working on it before it gets out of control. I applaud you for that. My ex never acknowledged that he was abusive even after counseling & divorcing him. You can't fix what you won't acknowledge!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

McDean said:


> Wow everyone, great responses - no blowing smoke here either! In full disclosure I am in therapy to work on my anger. As it turns out I'm semi-functional (per my counselor) in that I only have one or two incidents per year but holy cow can they be bad. I've come to realize that I'm actually not the norm, that those of you who think it is never ok and cussing is poor judgement in dealing with your significant other etc are the norm. Purely to give you a feel for some of us on the other side I will share a little detail.
> 
> I love my wife, my family, my friends etc...and mean it fully. Even in my few but intense moments (never physical by the way) I never 'believed what I said' but said it to- what I my counselor has described as 'getting them to hear the urgency in what I am trying to tell them', typically because I felt I wasn't being heard - some of the time it was probably true and others imagined on my part. If you asked my wife what she thought of me she would say I am a great husband and father, guy, leader, etc. but this one point is a scarlet letter and does wear you down over time. I know I'm not the most extreme case but much further along than the norm. As I've started to hear how it impacted her and others and upon learning it's not normal I've felt pretty low about it all. Not as an excuse and sadly, not as an exaggeration, I did not grow up around the norm at all in any way shape or form. I was always proud that I wasn't physically abusive given how many fights I was in as a young man - haven't been in one in over 15 years....how the cycle of 6-8 months started is still a mystery to me....but I'm working to break it once and for all.
> 
> Nobody - agree in the scenario I gave of someone yelling and someone not responding - they are both jerks.


Wow, McDean, are you, by any chance, my husband? We are in counseling now, and for the first time, he ralized the damage his words and outburst did to us. Before he was "trying because I am so sensitive".... He could have written your post. 
I hope it is not too late for your marriage. I am not so sure about mine, after last ouburst I really checked out and having hard time checking back in. It took me twenty years to say "enough"


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

WandaJ said:


> Wow, McDean, are you, by any chance, my husband? We are in counseling now, and for the first time, he ralized the damage his words and outburst did to us. Before he was "trying because I am so sensitive".... He could have written your post.
> I hope it is not too late for your marriage. I am not so sure about mine, after last ouburst I really checked out and having hard time checking back in. It took me twenty years to say "enough"


 My marriage has only been going for 9 years. Completely get now the 'checking out part', my wife has covered this with me. There are more issues in our marriage than this but in an effort to be a better me I'm all about changing this aspect of who I am - so if we stay together I am a better husband and if we don't I'm better period. It's hard, many may find that to be an exaggeration or excuse but I can tell you for sure it is, when you have been this way longer than you have been married it's almost automatic....the only advice have for others (either abuser or abused) is take action now, don't let it get to a checking out point and don't think your abusive behavior is normal....it simply is not, nor will it ever be...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> When it comes to marriage, if it's in a gray area...stay out of the gray area. If your spouse thinks you are mistreating them, why argue the point? Just don't do it.


LOL because if they don't deny that they are mistreating their spouse it would mean that they were in the wrong. Thin skinned people cannot handle being in the wrong, they fight tooth and nail to NOT be wrong, ever. It MUST be someone else's fault.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Coming from a childhood with a terrible example to follow in how to deal with my emotions, I have found it a difficult road to control my urge to let out the monster (which is just what it feels like to me). I think having children has been a major factor in learning how to deal with it. If I didn't know how, how could I teach them? Since I'm not perfect, I occasionally have little meltdowns. When I do, I make sure to own it completely. With my kids the other day, I was frustrated they did not listen to my instructions and did the wrong thing. I overreacted by showing my frustration (no yelling or name calling etc, just annoyed and abrupt). If I were to follow the idea that they didn't listen and my reaction was understandable and therefore they deserved it, I wouldn't have apologised. I don't agree with that though. I don't think there is a good reason to make other people feel bad. So I told them I was sorry, that I didn't need to get agro over it as it really wasn't that big a deal and was easily fixed. Sad little faces turned into happy faces again. I hope I'm teaching them that it's not okay to give ourselves permission to treat others in a crappy way because of how *we* feel and that we should take responsibility for our actions.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know... A man outweighing me by a significant amount, yelling in my face at the top of his lungs is extremely intimidating. If this scene happened with any sort of regularity, that would set up a threatening dynamic in the relationship. A dynamic such as that would cause the threatened spouse to behave in a very timid and cautious way so as not to set off the abuser.
> 
> If you think that's being thin skinned, perhaps you yourself are an abuser?


Yes. I agree.

A man continuing to talk even when a woman is trying to talk over him on the other hand is very different.

Once reported onto a message board it comes out the same. I think TAM is reasonably good at sniffing out the difference, but it is a limitation of the format. It can lead to a woman in the first case not getting the correct advice.

The hardest man to spot is the emotionally self-absorbed man obsessed with his own emotions, who keeps being referred to as a Nice Guy on this board, which annoys the **** out if me.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Yes. I agree.
> 
> A man continuing to talk even when a woman is trying to talk over him on the other hand is very different.
> 
> ...



I totally agree! The Nice Guy is self absorbed about other people thinking well of him. It's so much easier to not give a fvck what other people think!

I have seen some threads where the woman is eventually revealed to be causing the very difficulty she writes about. She usually doesn't stick around very long.


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## luvinhim (Jun 25, 2014)

thank you op for asking this question and thank you TAm family members who responded. sharing your stories and how you feel has given me the courage to tell my story.

I thingk verbal abuse if from the devil. My husband is a verbally abusive man along with the throwing things, trapping me in room and downplaying his agression by saying i am too sensitive. or he feels it is okay to behave that way during an argument.

i do not fear him on a daily basis. but when things get heated or he is frustrated watch out. i used to joke with him that I am going to tell the divorce judge that i want a divorce because my husband
does not know how to talk to me.

my breaking point has come after over 15 years of marriage i have had it. the last heated outburt my husband was yelling so loud in my face i thought the house was going to fall down. i moved away to get out of his space and he followed me into my personal space. by this time he is yelling louder.(.if that is possible) and put his hand is my face, i leaned back from him and WHACK he hit me. He instantly realized what he did and tried to apologize. Needless to say..police was called, and reports filed, i told him to never come home. 

he begged for another chance, i said if he agreed to counseling i would consider it. 

We are in counseling and let me tell you it is so hard. 

I am angry with myself for not standing up for myself when it first happened. I let so many years go by and the marriage suffered because I did not put my feet down.

I did not want to break up the family
He is a good man and good provider
He only does it when he is made
Maybe it is something i have done. I need to speak softer. Do
make him so mad.

Well his behavior is not my responsibilty it is his to own. I checked out emotionally and it is so hard to check back in. 

I cannot fully trust my heart to him. How can a man who claims to love me call me a stupid *****, or yell at me and frighten me. 
The same man turns around and want loving from me when he is not frustrated or out of control. SOOO HARD.

Just my two cents. Verbal and/or emotional abuse should never be tolerated


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Wow luvinhim - sorry to hear about your story. Honestly, as I go through my own process of therapy and hopefully growth etc...if you are able to overcome this you are far stronger than most and even though I can also identify with your husband, I think your own heart and peace of mind would have me encourage you to not overcome it, the strike could also turn into a gateway of much greater things.....It's hard for someone not abusive to understand that you can love some one so much but still be abusive to them, in your own mind its not indicative necessarily of a lack of love. Regardless, having seen the ramifications of my own temper and knowing that when I used to get into physical altercations sometimes I would be so enraged as to 'black out' and not remember hardly a thing I did - the fact that he has now struck you gives me great pause....not my place other than to share my story but loving you as much he probably does may not be enough to prevent him from doing something you will both regret. Even if everything I just wrote is not worth the time it took you to read it, I would encourage you to to focus on this ,"I am angry with myself for not standing up for myself when it first happened. I let so many years go by and the marriage suffered because I did not put my feet down." You need to take care of you, he needs to take care of himself and if he doesn't then he will have to live with the consequences. Likewise, you will as well luvinhim, take care of you now no matter how hard it may seem at the time to do so......truly hope this works out for you, I hope for his sake he figures it out......thank you for sharing!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

luvinhim said:


> *Well his behavior is not my responsibilty it is his to own. I checked out emotionally and it is so hard to check back in. *
> 
> I cannot fully trust my heart to him. How can a man who claims to love me call me a stupid *****, or yell at me and frighten me.
> The same man turns around and want loving from me when he is not frustrated or out of control. SOOO HARD.
> ...


Luvinhim, I know exactly what you are saying. I am in the same boat right now. AFter the last outburst I have checked out, and it is really hard to check back in. We are in counseling, and he seems to be getting the point finally, but it is hard after twenty years.


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## luvinhim (Jun 25, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Luvinhim, I know exactly what you are saying. I am in the same boat right now. AFter the last outburst I have checked out, and it is really hard to check back in. We are in counseling, and he seems to be getting the point finally, but it is hard after twenty years.


I know exactly what you mean. To go back to trusting your heart with an abuser is so difficult. My husband just do not understand how much damage he has really done. And I am guilty of never standing up to him and letting this thing drag on to the point that I question if I really still love him.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

McDean said:


> Enjoliwoman - Sounds to me like your ex might be in a more extreme place that I am/was - that being said, I grew up with people like him. Every physical fight started with a verbal escalation (there is my base for learned behavior) and if not resolved through the verbal turned physical. My mom was a yeller. My grandfather as well but here's the rub - in every other way you would think they rock, my grandfather was actually a genius yet has picked this behavior up as well. Add to it my home town environment and here I am...
> 
> Still, I think this leads me to another question - those of you who take the high road in your conversation - if you have to tell the person you love several times there is something you like or don't like or whatever and they keep going, what do you do? Based on some other responses in this thread it's another form of abuse potentially, or neglect - should someone walk and after how long?
> 
> Too many great posts to call you all out but will simply say, thank you!


Yes, my ex was extreme and his abusive (verbal, emotional, physical) behavior was driven by his narcissistic personality disorder. But because I had never been exposed to this at all, it threw me for a loop! I grew up with parents who didn't yell and who worked things out calmly.

I almost always took the high road and tried to calmly reason. He would do OK for a bit and slide back into old habits. I recall one particularly bad instance where I stopped him and said "That right there - calling me an F-ing Idiot - those kinds of hurtful words and insults are exactly what is killing the love..." and he nodded and seemed to understand. Then shortly after (a few days, a week) we were exploring a new development looking at houses and we were trying to get to a landmark and I pointed to a road that I thought went through... only to be called stupid "are you stupid? can't you open your eyes and SEE the road doesn't go through?" And when I said "It looks like it does from here... and calling me stupid was hurtful and unnecessary" but he only countered with "you WERE being stupid - what else was I supposed to say?"

I knew he was never going to "get it" or stop and I wasn't going to allow that to be the example my daughter grew up with. I wasn't going to have her think that was normal or OK.

That was probably year 13. I left after 15. But I was pretty good at being tolerant and justification and preemptively keeping the peace. Except when I was being stupid or an idiot, obviously.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank you Enjoli, that's a long time to hear those types of messages, a lot of patience on your part.....your quote by Albert Camus at the bottom has always been one of my favorites - first read in a book titled, ' Words I Wish I Wrote' by Robert Fulghum...very applicable to the TAM community....


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