# Mismatched mind and heart



## BlueWoman

Really just a vent:

I know I am better off without my ex. My life is better. 

But it's still incredibly painful. 

And of course my life is better, because it's better to live alone than live with someone who doesn't love you. 

But once upon a time, he did love me. And life was good. Not perfect, but good. We were a team. (I thought.) And then he stopped loving me. And he became a very selfish person. 

And I know people can't help what they feel. But somehow knowing it doesn't actually make it feel any better. 

I don't miss him. I miss who he was. And I really wish I could stop feeling sad.


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## SecondTime'Round

I can relate to every word. Hugs and good wishes.


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## Hardtohandle

Like a million other people will tell you, it gets better in time.. 

But that time all depends on you as well. 

For me I dated, had my rebound and then found someone who can deal with my crazy Sh!t.. 

Yes, what I did was all wrong per say dating wise.. But I don't give a fvck.. It worked for me.. I found someone who loves me and cares about me with all the crazy insecurities I put her through.. She isn't perfect and we fight.. But in the end we love each other.. 

I was with my Ex wife for 20 years.. I nearly suicidal.. my story in my signature labeled, mymistake. 

Life is short and personally I couldn't stand wallowing in my own sh!t of misery and sorrow.. I had 2 boys that depended on me and I just couldn't sit there crying all day.. They needed a role model and they needed a normal dad.. Not that sack of sh!t I was.. 

Everyone has their own timer of how long they will wallow regardless of what anyone tells them.. 

Go out date and break a few hearts and be fvcking done with it.. Then find that great guy.. WE ARE OUT HERE....

Trust me sit at home and cry for a month if it will accelerate this stuff for you.. But don't dwell on this stuff too much, trust me many good looking men are out there who were crushed looking for an understanding woman... Just don't be someone elses rebound  ( Yes being a hypocrite )


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## BlueWoman

Yeah, I don't think dating is going to work for me. I have absolutely no interest in it. I have profiles up, and honestly everyone who responds annoys me. And I think it has more to do with where I am emotionally than the fact that they are annoying. 

I wasn't a big dater before I got together with my ex. And I have to say, my sex drive has significantly declined since pre-marriage. So that kills that motivation for me. 

I don't want to date. I just want to stop getting slammed with waves of grief for random stuff, like it's a nice spring day and remember when...

I definitely do better when I'm busy. And I'm trying not to Wallow. But seriously, if I could control my emotions on this...I would totally stop.


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## BlueWoman

Here is why I like TAM. I had epiphany today: My marriage was nothing special. It really wasn't. He was cheater and I was a rug sweeper. His first EA was 2010. He told me about it, and I stupidly told him I never wanted to know about those things again. I stuck my head in the sand. And when he went to her birthday party, and I didn't stop him? WTF was the matter with me?! I acted like he was trust worthy and he acted like he wasn't. It was all there right in my face. And I ignored it. Because we weren't soul mates. We were just two stupid people who should have split long ago. And possibly never gotten married in the first place.

I've been holding on to this idea that our love was some great love, because he loved me for a decade before we actually got together. But did he really love me? No he didn't. He was infatuated with something shiny. And once he had me, I wasn't so shiny. Now he's following PoT (piece of trash) around, while she keeps telling him she loves him but is not in love with him. And you know what? Let him. He's not my problem.

I can't believe I feel this way today, because yesterday I was crying. 

But today...I feel okay. I haven't felt this neutral is ages. 

Anyone else feel like they've developed manic depressiveness after a divorce? 'Cause I swear I feel crazy.


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## Primrose

I feel like I could have written your OP.. only my WH and I are not divorced yet.  I know I *need* to file, but my heart wants my family to work out.


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## BlueWoman

So sorry Prim. I have to say. The last 3 years has been nothing but tragedy for me. Deaths, cancer, divorce. And by far the Divorce was the worst. People promise it does get better. And I think it does. At least today I'm having a good day. But maybe it's all the cold medicine. 
I did get one good piece of advice...make sure you do the filing. Have control over that. 

The other thing...I wish I had listened to my Lawyers more. I was still madly in love with him so he got way more than he should have. My lawyer did a good job watching my back when I couldn't.


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## BlueWoman

*Perspective*

I know I am better off without my ex. My life is better. This is actually true. My life is a million times better. 

But it's still incredibly painful. Not today, but yes, this has been a painful process. 

And of course my life is better, because it's better to live alone than live with someone who doesn't love you. This is also true. 

But once upon a time, he did love me. And life was good. Okay...reality check...when was it ever good? The first year of living together you had to push him to get a job. Then you had to push him to go to school. The wedding day was nice. But then it was a constant fight about money and his overall laziness. And just at the point he stopped being lazy is also around the same time he started cheating. Life was not good. It was really freaking hard. 
Not perfect, but good. We were a team. (I thought.)We weren't a team. I was doing all the work. In fact that's the problem. I did all the work and didn't actually expect him to be a man. She he never became one. And he's still not. I created this mess. 

And then he stopped loving me. And he became a very selfish person. No. He was always a selfish and lazy person. That's who I married. I just ignored it. That's on me. 

And I know people can't help what they feel. But somehow knowing it doesn't actually make it feel any better. 

I don't miss him. I miss who he was. And I really wish I could stop feeling sad.
I don't miss who he was. I miss who I wanted him to be. He was the same person he is now, but I only saw the best in him. And ignored the bad to my detriment. But I married him. And now I am no longer married to him. And that is a very good thing.


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## Mr.Fisty

I think your having trouble of getting over it is because of the amount of energy you put into a bad marriage, into a very dysfunctional person. Sounds like you should of been the one to leave, be the one who walked away. Instead, he left you, and your very hurt. All those things that you tried to make him into a better person, and he betrayed that.

Now, you have a hard time accepting that he was the one who left you instead. When he left, your attachment kicked in, remembering the good times, how at some points you loved him, and parts of you wanted those times again, or the potential of your relationship going that wayif you can only work on it. It was hard being rejected. All that you put in, how you had invest a lot of yourself into him, all those bad times, to have it end like this.

It can leave anyone angry.

Hopefully you keep making those positive little changes. U wonder though, does he lose motivation when he got into a serious relationship with you. With this new girl, she poses a challenge, and he can't help but chase her. I wonder if that is the way he operates. when your relationship got serious, did he seem less motivated. This is where the commitment phase would of kicked in.


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## BlueWoman

Mr.Fisty said:


> I think your having trouble of getting over it is because of the amount of energy you put into a bad marriage, into a very dysfunctional person. Sounds like you should of been the one to leave, be the one who walked away. Instead, he left you, and your very hurt. All those things that you tried to make him into a better person, and he betrayed that.
> 
> Now, you have a hard time accepting that he was the one who left you instead. When he left, your attachment kicked in, remembering the good times, how at some points you loved him, and parts of you wanted those times again, or the potential of your relationship going that wayif you can only work on it. It was hard being rejected. All that you put in, how you had invest a lot of yourself into him, all those bad times, to have it end like this.
> 
> It can leave anyone angry.
> 
> Hopefully you keep making those positive little changes. U wonder though, does he lose motivation when he got into a serious relationship with you. With this new girl, she poses a challenge, and he can't help but chase her. I wonder if that is the way he operates. when your relationship got serious, did he seem less motivated. This is where the commitment phase would of kicked in.


Mr. Fisty, you once again, nailed it on the head. There are some big similarities between his pattern with the OW and me. The only difference is that he wasn't involved with anyone when I came into his life. 
He likes the chase. I suspect that if she let herself be caught, he would lose interest. 

I haven't been as angry the last few weeks. When I found I out that it had actually been a PA, it was blow. And I spent the next week furious. But the week after I sunk in a pretty bad depression. I even stayed home from work because I was so depressed. And on that day, I call my PCP and suggested modern medicine help me out. We upped my anti depressants and gave me a limited prescription for Xanax. I only take that at night, and only when I'm obsessing so much I can't sleep. 

I also did two other things. First, I joined Happify.com. I have no idea if it's really going to work, but it give me some insight. They give you a quiz to find out what your happiness strengths are. And one of my strengths is gratefulness. So I've been really working on thinking about what I'm grateful for. This leads to the second things I started doing. I started journaling. The entries are all letters to him, with occasional letters to a few other people who I want to say something to, but don't really want to say it. After I took the Happiness quiz...I decided every I make I have add what I am grateful for. 

I am trying very hard to change my thought patterns about the whole thing. 

I don't know if it's working...but today I feel pretty good. I feel like I'm moving into acceptance. 

The last few days, I get sad, but then be able to say to myself..."but you don't want him back." And I would be able to see that I was actually better off. 

Today is the first day my heart is matching my mind. We will see what happens tomorrow. 

Oh and progress: So I was in another browser and I went to facebook...and it went to his face book account. And I though about it...I could check those messages...see what's going on. I logged out instead. And since he has changed his password, I can't log in again. 

Then I have to think...maybe I was sad because I did see his facebook page. The top post was picture of him and PoT and a concert. And it made me feel so bad. And then I stopped and thought...but I wouldn't have really wanted to go that concert. I would have gone for him, but I prefer communing with nature he preferred communing with culture. And I reminded myself that my profile picture is an amazing picture of me in White Sand National Park. 

Because I did do my trip. I went with a girlfriend and we went Carlsbad Caverns and then to White Sands last week. And it's a trip I wanted to make for years, but he wouldn't go. And because we shared money for me to have gone by myself would have been challenging. 

I didn't have to negotiate. I just did it, and it was wonderful. 

That seemed to make me feel better.

And the other day...I think it's spring. Spring makes me feel romantic...and that made me miss him. But I have to remember, I don't miss him. I miss who I thought he was. But that person wasn't real. 

Yes, I should have left him. I should have left him when he had his first EA. And I was definitely thinking about leaving him the months before he called it quits. I would have day dreams about how things would be better if I were single. He just jumped first. And that wounds my pride. But I'll get over it. In the end it doesn't matter who jumped first. I shouldn't have been married to him, and divorcing him was a good idea. 

I don't know if I'll be as trusting ever again. But on the other hand, I don't know that I should be. I mean, certainly TAM has shown me there are plenty of men who are capable of being faithful. So I don't have to go into a relationship expecting to be cheated on. But I don't think I will ever be that stupid again.


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## Chuck71

I will always love my XW, but the person she was in 1997-2005

The old "WC" died many years ago. Some Walking Dead corpse is her now, running


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## Pluto2

BlueWoman said:


> People promise it does get better. And I think it does. At least today I'm having a good day. But maybe it's all the cold medicine.


This really made me chuckle.

Sounds like you are going through the ugly and necessary process of mourning the end of a long term relationship.


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## Chuck71

Meant to post more last night but the enter key got me. He promised you gold

but sold you rocks. He is the, "you always want what you can't have... but once

they get it, they change their mind." You're a fighter... you wanted it to work, you

dug in, fought. After time... you will have no regrets. You can only give the best 

which you are capable. You invested all your time and energy and wanted to 

experience the rewards of it. Some people aren't built for the long haul... he wasn't.

I was with my XW 15 years. First five.... heaven, next five.... average, last five ....

uneventful, boring, almost "roommates." Post-D relationship.... 18 months.... heaven.

Last 4 months.... downhill. But I saw the latter coming. I reacted appropriately. 

You live, you learn. As far as my post-D... as Whitney Houston sang

"the ride was worth the fall" When it's time.... you will step back in the ring.


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## BlueWoman

Day 2 of feeling ok. Of course, I'm still on heavy cold medicine. 

My mantra of the day is "He's just not that special." 

He's not. We're not. We were a cliche. 

I realize my next job is to figure out if I am capable of being in a functional marriage? And if not, make changes if I can. Also, I have to examine my rug sweeping. 

I think I'm still in the process of dealing with the divorce, but it's about me and not about him. He's stopped being all that important. 

So anyone have any good reading material advice on how to stop being codependent in relationships?


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## Jellybeans

I'm sorry. It does suck. It's for the best though. He has done you a big 'ol favor. In time, you will see that.

It doesn't soften the pain now, but do know, you deserve to be with someone who actually cares.


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## BlueWoman

Thanks Jellybeans. He did do me a favor. I feel like I'm now in what my IC called the "marriage autopsy." I am no longer consumed with the intense grief and the feelings of oxitocin withdrawal. 

I am realizing that I really didn't have firm boundaries with him. His first emotional affair was about 5 years ago. I didn't know about it until he told me. And then continued to hang out with her, even though it bothered me. 

So my first question to myself is why didn't I put my foot down on this issue. But I actually know the answer. Because if I put my foot down on the issue, it was going to be a deal breaker, and I didn't want to call it quits. 

I met X in college, where it was normal to have close friends of both genders. 

However, as we transitioned to adulthood I accepted that my relationships with men had to change as they became involved with other women and got married. I either became good friends with their wives or we became acquaintances and stopped being good friends. I didn't resent that. Because, I felt that their wife should be their primary relationship. 

My X never made that transition. So he continued to keep his close female friends and make new female friends. And of course he wasn't able to keep his primary relationship with me. We often fought about how he was spending more time with other women. 

But, it should have been a deal breaker for me. I should have drawn a hard line in the sand with the first EA. But I knew if I did, our marriage would be over. 

Unfortunately for me, I tend to have poor negotiating skills. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl. The only power I felt I had was being able to walk away. But if I made that threat, I had better be ready to walk away. I wasn't ready. So I rug swept. 

But there has to be something in between. Right? So what should I have done?

I'm actually processing these questions in my head right now?
1) Why, a woman who really feels strongly about boundaries, didn't I enforce pretty reasonable boundaries with my husband? 
2) What is a more appropriate way to enforce boundaries without having everything be an ultimatum?


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## Chuck71

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/155305-weeds-codependence.html

thread started by a wise old man


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## Chuck71

You feared the outcome of your boundaries. You gave consequences hoping he

would never in a million years cross your boundaries. He did. After the EA his respect

of your boundaries were very low. You buried your head in the sand. With children, we warn

them not to play near the busy highway. If they do... they get a whipping. What happens

if the parent does not give the child a whipping when he crosses the boundary?

With my ex g/f we set the basic boundaries.... no cheating, abuse / neglect, anything

else bring it to the table for a sit-down. It may be trivial to one but obviously not 

to the other. 18 months in she began pulling back on quality time and physical

touch (not just sex). I mirrored her behavior and she acknowledged it but did

nothing about it. Then I called for sit-downs. She would not fully participate in

any, act like she did not want "to be there." I continued to call for them, she started

blowing me off, refusing to talk. I blew up the relationship. Did I want to? No.

But where was this leading had I not? It was very painful to see the relationship end. But I do not regret

blowing things up in the least.


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## BlueWoman

Chuck71 said:


> You feared the outcome of your boundaries. You gave consequences hoping he
> 
> would never in a million years cross your boundaries. He did. After the EA his respect
> 
> of your boundaries were very low.


Actually I didn't give him boundaries. Instead I just pretended like it was fine. That's the problem. 

In the end. I did finally say if things didn't get better then we were over. As painful as it was, I knew I couldn't take anymore. Ironically I didn't leave him because of his cheating. I wasn't even really aware of his physical cheating until after the fact. I did leave him because he put other people (particulary women) ahead of me. 

I told him that he had to make changes or we weren't going to make it. He said he didn't want to change (because at this point he was "in love" with posow) and I said...well than that's it. Within 48 hours I had let everyone know that we were divorcing. And I began the process of moving on. 

The most painful 8 months of my life. 

But today I'm okay. Today I don't feel lost or unhappy. I got a lot of work to do on myself. But that's okay. I've got time.


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## Chuck71

Could it be you did have boundaries but they were not enforced?

He knew you wouldn't want him to have an EA or PA, it's not as if he would invite women over

to your home while you were there. My ex g/f is CoD... she would help anyone but neglect

herself. When I was not on her priority list..... I knew it was time to go.


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## BlueWoman

Yeah, I suppose you are right. I did have boundaries but I didn't enforce them. I should have. 

I wonder what would have happened? 

So as I begin to dissect my marriage...
X and I had a mutual friend. I say had, because I don't speak to her and X has limited contact with her. 

This friend, we'll call her Genie, was notorious for not being able to handle it when her friends paired off. Which sucked for her because that's what we all did in our late 20's and 30's. We knew it would be a double Whammy that X and I got together, because that was two friends. She unsurprisingly, behaved very badly, which involved me completely cutting her off after our wedding. X stopped being close with her as well. 

Anyway, one of my big qualms with her was her overt meddling in my relationship with my X. She was very propitiatory with him. And I did not tolerate it. At some point before the wedding she tried to maneuver a road trip with my husband. I didn't want it to happen so I volunteered to go on the road trip with her. It was horrible. 

Looking back at it...I didn't trust him to do the right thing. Which would have been to say "no." 

This points to two different issues: One my need to take care of everything. My IC calls it "over-functioning." and of course me not believing he would respect those boundaries. Too bad of course, because that would be been a good time to walk away. We weren't married. 

Hindsight is 20/20.


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## Chuck71

Your H should not be going on road trips with a female unless they had been lifelong friends. Too many negative

outcomes there. If you were in a serious LTR at the time... best both of you went.

When it comes to having to deal with other females, you have no problem at all.

When it comes to opposite gender... gets a bit tricky. But when it comes to opposite gender 

who holds your heart... very tricky. That's the case for a lot of people.

During my D.... I did not treat my STBXW like my 15 year W, I treated her like a business partner

doing a business deal.


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## BlueWoman

I totally treated my XH like a teenager in our divorce. I thought he was acting like one. 

But I got what I wanted. And our divorce was really easy. No property, no children, no debt. The only thing I really wanted was that he refinance his student loans and the car, so that they were in his name only. He did, and I'm free of him.


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## BlueWoman

Still thinking...so what did I get out of not enforcing boundaries?

I know the answer to this one. 

I had pretty severe migraines during the time we were married. I had some form of headache 20 days out a month. This meant I was tired and in pain. He took care of a lot of things that involved getting in the car and driving around. Things that I was too tired to do. I found I could keep up with my job but that was about all I had the energy for. And I think while I was married to him, I had a better quality of life than if I hadn't been married to him. 

But about about a year and a half ago, I started getting Botox for my head aches. I cannot begin to express how much that changed my life. I was no longer in constant pain. Which also meant that my narcotic use went way down. Not in pain, I didn't mean meds. And I think that's when I really started to see the cracks in our marriage. 
But maybe that's good too. I needed him, and he was there. And when I didn't need him to take care of me in that way...well sad to say there wasn't anything else there. 

Gonna have to think on this.


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## Jellybeans

BlueWoman said:


> His first emotional affair was about 5 years ago. I didn't know about it until he told me. And then continued to hang out with her, even though it bothered me.


Major red flag. This means he didn't care about your feelings. That is pretty cold, especially since it was an EA.



BlueWoman said:


> So he continued to keep his close female friends and make new female friends. And of course he wasn't able to keep his primary relationship with me. We often fought about how he was spending more time with other women.


Not ok.



BlueWoman said:


> But, it should have been a deal breaker for me. I should have drawn a hard line in the sand with the first EA. But I knew if I did, our marriage would be over.


That just means that deep down you knew this is how he was, despite you not liking it. It's means you were not compatible because you had a fundamental difference on boundaries. boundaries. He seemed to have no issue with hurting your feelings by continuing these super close friendships with other women. Most women would NOT be ok if their husband spent more time with his female friends than with her; alternatively, most men would NOT be ok if their wife spent more time with her male friends than him. That's just asking for trouble.



BlueWoman said:


> But there has to be something in between. Right? So what should I have done?
> 
> I'm actually processing these questions in my head right now?
> 1) Why, a woman who really feels strongly about boundaries, didn't I enforce pretty reasonable boundaries with my husband?
> 2) What is a more appropriate way to enforce boundaries without having everything be an ultimatum?


1. You already answered dthis. You said you knew that if you set a boundary, it would be the end of the relationship (because you knew he would not accept what you said. This just means that he didn't respect you enough to stop doing the things that bothered you AND also that you just were not compatible on a major key issue in a relationship. You didn't set the boundary out of fear of losing the relationship. But the thing is, the relationship was never how you would have wanted it to be anyway. Because he did whatever he wanted and was careless about your feelings. 

2. Boundaries are saying what you will/will not accept. They are set to protect YOU. The way to know if you will gel with someone is that if you set a boundary and someone completely dismisses it, then that tells you they don't care about your boundary. 

Ex. "If you keep speaking to me this way, I am going to hang up the phone." If someone keeps harping, then you end the conversation/hang up.

You're NOT wrong for not wanting your husband to spend all his extra time with other women. Going on a road trip with another woman? Really? 

You just need to let go of the fact that it's wrong to set boundaries and/or let go of the fear about them. They are there to protect you.



Chuck71 said:


> You feared the outcome of your boundaries. You gave consequences hoping he would never in a million years cross your boundaries. He did. After the EA his respect of your boundaries were very low. You buried your head in the sand.
> 
> With my ex g/f we set the basic boundaries.... no cheating, abuse / neglect, anything else bring it to the table for a sit-down.
> 
> Then I called for sit-downs.  She would not fully participate in any, act like she did not want "to be there." I continued to call for them, she started blowing me off, refusing to talk. I blew up the relationship. Did I want to? No.
> 
> But where was this leading had I not?


Bingo. Sometimes we may not wanttto end something because we like someone but liking someone and having respect in a relationship are different things. If someone doesn't respect you/your boundaries enough to meet you halfway and really hear you out and stop doing a behavior that you say bothers you, then WALK. It's NOT worth it.


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## SamuraiJack

Marriage autopsy indeed. I still open mine up from time to time.

For me, I was simply "let go".
It took me a while to realize that being tired all the time and getting sick was a result of her dragging me down. I gave up a lot to simply be there when she decided she would spend some time with me.

Reviewing it all the last few years she just really wasnt there for me at all. It took her leaving to realize how little time she actually spent with me.


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## Chuck71

When you get sick and tired of being "sick and tired"


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## southbound

BlueWoman said:


> Yeah, I don't think dating is going to work for me. I have absolutely no interest in it. I have profiles up, and honestly everyone who responds annoys me. And I think it has more to do with where I am emotionally than the fact that they are annoying.
> 
> I wasn't a big dater before I got together with my ex. And I have to say, my sex drive has significantly declined since pre-marriage. So that kills that motivation for me.
> 
> I don't want to date. I just want to stop getting slammed with waves of grief for random stuff, like it's a nice spring day and remember when...
> 
> I definitely do better when I'm busy. And I'm trying not to Wallow. But seriously, if I could control my emotions on this...I would totally stop.


I can relate to your first post and this one.

If you know you're not interested in dating, don't think you should just because that's the norm or someone wants to fix you up. I've been divorced for almost 5 years because my x wife was no longer happy. I've discovered that I like being single really well.

I like doing what i want when i want, and no drama whatsoever. 
I can't imagine a relationship situation appealing enough that I would want to give up what i have now.


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## BlueWoman

Day 3 of feeling okay with life. I have spent so much time being sad, that feeling normal feels like an anomaly, and I keep expecting myself to back slide. Because up until this week, I maybe had 1 semi good day every couple of weeks. 

So I don't trust the fact that I'm okay. Could it really be that simple? I just wake up one day and I'm better. 

I mean obviously I'm still working on stuff. But the despair I felt...it's just gone. I don't feel resentful, or angry, or depressed. 

I feel like I can move forward. And of course moving forward means I have to look back to see where I made mistakes. 

I have a coffee date this weekend. I am looking forward to it. He actually pursued me online. I kept pointing out ways we were incompatible (politics and religion) but he seemed to think they weren't that big of a deal. We seem to have other values in common, so we shall see. 
But in the end it doesn't really matter. I know I'm not ready for anything serious. It's not even that I'm not ready...it's that I don't want anything serious. I have so much freedom right now. I am only accountable to myself. And I like it. I'm not ready to give that up.


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## Chuck71

If it is a coffee date the last thing you want to be concerned about is politics and religion.

Save that for the engagement :rofl:

Course I have the foolproof reply for both


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## BlueWoman

Cross posted with you Southbound. 
I had thought in November that I was ready for dating. But really I was just missing the attachment to my X. Anyway, I put up a lot of profiles on different sites. I've been taking them down. 

I do have the date this weekend. But I'm not expecting much. I'm also not dreading it. 

Before being married and for the first part of my marriage I was very HD, but he was LD and as my depression set in and as I was more and more stressed out, my drive really decreased. 

I didn't date, but I had several friends with Bene's. Or short term relationships. 

I wonder what it would be like to get my drive back again and where that would go.

But I'm in no hurry. But yeah...being single and free. I missed that.


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## BlueWoman

Question: Why did I stay in a marriage that was obviously flawed? Answer: because I was getting something out of it. If I really look at the marriage, I remember that my X came in with needs that I knew I couldn't meet. He was very social. I used to be very social pre migraine years. But I lived my life very differently when I got migraine. And my migraines were at their worst when I was married to him. He stuck with me through all of that. And if I really think about it...he really left after I had gotten through all of the crisis. I no longer needed him. 

I believe that things are meant to be. So perhaps we were meant to be with each other in the last decade because we needed each other. I need support while I went through some serious medical issues, and he needed support to get through school and become established. But we are both done with that. I have a treatment that actually works, and once the headaches were controlled, I could then take care of things like my weight, because exercise is an option. I still have more weight to lose, but I'm not really working at it, it's just kind of falling off. I mean, I know it's because I'm eating properly and exercising, but I am doing those things because they feel good and make me feel better in the short term. I am not dieting. I skip working out, when I don't feel like it. 

So if I accept that this marriage had run it's course...I no longer needed my X and he no longer needed me...

Then I feel like I have to completely revamp my definition of marriage. 

I consider myself a spiritual person, but I have to admit, I have felt less connected spiritually than I have in a while. Part of that came with accepting that I am not a Christian. 

And while I wouldn't say my views on marriage were in line with any church view, I did have some traditional view points. I did believe that marriage was for life. 

But if my marriage was meant to be and meant to end...then does that mean marriages should be viewed as temporary? It seems like it falls into some shade of grey that I'm not really comfortable with. 

Historically marriages did provide protection for women. And perhaps the idea that marriage was for life was another protection that women no longer need. 

I am educated woman fully capable of taking care of myself. So I don't need the life protection of a man. This was not the case for my Great Grandmother. 

On the other hand...perhaps I should look at maslow's Hierarchy of needs. 

Because of my migraines, I was only really able to meet need 1 on my own. My X helped me meet level 2 and part of 3. But once I no longer needed him to meet those needs, because I could meet them myself, I started to want to meet higher level needs. 

So perhaps I can find someone who is an asset in meeting higher needs and I will be able to love them for life. 

Lot's to think about....


----------



## SamuraiJack

When my marriage ended I thought long and hard about it too.
The ***** in my armor was that I had been raised on Disney and Chivalry. 
I fully expected that when problems arose in the marriage I would conquer…because love conquers all.
I was a romantic.
Most likely I fell in love with my exes potential rather than her truth.

Turns out I was very wrong. 
She didn’t fight for our love and she didn’t feel the same way. 
When I told her that I loved her forever she said “Til death do us part isn’t a prison sentence.”
I really wanted that knock down drag out fight that they have in movies…but it never happened.
She lied that things were okay for a year and then broke up with me by email.

16 years gone…written in painful electrons across my work monitor screen.

I spent LONG hours thinking about marriage and what it means and it came clear to me that the best chance for a working marriage is based on how close the two people understand marriage IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER. The closer their belief systems, the better chance they stood. That’s why you see those couples that are together forever because they both satisfy each other’s perceptions of a good marriage. Even if one of them is in chains and the other is holding them, as long as they BOTH have the same understanding of marriage, they stand a better chance.
Strange I know but it seems to work that way.

As for the marriage thing…We live in a throwaway society where its quicker to trash something rather than recondition it.
Traditional marriage doesn’t work very well anymore and you may be part of the last generations who endorse it.

Me? I still favor the idea of it, but my concept of it has changed.
The romantic side of me misses it. My realist side doesn’t at all. My self-protecting side says “keep the hell away from my finances.”
…and when all is said and done…you have a the odds of a coin flip to succeed.
But at least I can say I gave it my very best shot and ever waivered from my vows.
Possibly the best reward for being stalwart is seeing that look on your exes face as they look at you with a big mouthful of AstroTurf and realize the greener grass they were chasing was just an illusion.

Still makes me laugh to this day. 


----------



## Regretf

SamuraiJack said:


> When my marriage ended I thought long and hard about it too.
> The ***** in my armor was that I had been raised on Disney and Chivalry.
> I fully expected that when problems arose in the marriage I would conquer…because love conquers all.
> I was a romantic.
> Most likely I fell in love with my exes potential rather than her truth.
> 
> Turns out I was very wrong.
> She didn’t fight for our love and she didn’t feel the same way.
> When I told her that I loved her forever she said “Til death do us part isn’t a prison sentence.”
> I really wanted that knock down drag out fight that they have in movies…but it never happened.
> She lied that things were okay for a year and then broke up with me by email.
> 
> 16 years gone…written in painful electrons across my work monitor screen.
> 
> I spent LONG hours thinking about marriage and what it means and it came clear to me that the best chance for a working marriage is based on how close the two people understand marriage IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER. The closer their belief systems, the better chance they stood. That’s why you see those couples that are together forever because they both satisfy each other’s perceptions of a good marriage. Even if one of them is in chains and the other is holding them, as long as they BOTH have the same understanding of marriage, they stand a better chance.
> Strange I know but it seems to work that way.
> 
> As for the marriage thing…We live in a throwaway society where its quicker to trash something rather than recondition it.
> Traditional marriage doesn’t work very well anymore and you may be part of the last generations who endorse it.
> 
> Me? I still favor the idea of it, but my concept of it has changed.
> The romantic side of me misses it. My realist side doesn’t at all. My self-protecting side says “keep the hell away from my finances.”
> …and when all is said and done…you have a the odds of a coin flip to succeed.
> But at least I can say I gave it my very best shot and ever waivered from my vows.
> Possibly the best reward for being stalwart is seeing that look on your exes face as they look at you with a big mouthful of AstroTurf and realize the greener grass they were chasing was just an illusion.
> 
> Still makes me laugh to this day. 


Can't like this post enough.


----------



## southbound

BlueWoman said:


> Day 3 of feeling okay with life. I have spent so much time being sad, that feeling normal feels like an anomaly, and I keep expecting myself to back slide. Because up until this week, I maybe had 1 semi good day every couple of weeks.
> 
> So I don't trust the fact that I'm okay. Could it really be that simple? I just wake up one day and I'm better.
> 
> I mean obviously I'm still working on stuff. But the despair I felt...it's just gone. I don't feel resentful, or angry, or depressed.
> 
> I feel like I can move forward. And of course moving forward means I have to look back to see where I made mistakes.
> 
> I have a coffee date this weekend. I am looking forward to it. He actually pursued me online. I kept pointing out ways we were incompatible (politics and religion) but he seemed to think they weren't that big of a deal. We seem to have other values in common, so we shall see.
> But in the end it doesn't really matter. I know I'm not ready for anything serious. It's not even that I'm not ready...it's that I don't want anything serious. I have so much freedom right now. I am only accountable to myself. And I like it. I'm not ready to give that up.


It's great that you feel better.

I found that it was a roller coaster type thing. I felt terrible all the time in the beginning, then I would have good days. Then, I'd have a dumpy day again; sometimes it was fueled by something, like knowing she was dating again, and other times it just happened. As some time passed, the bad days got to fewer and longer between.


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## BlueWoman

At least for today, he could tell me he's marrying POSOW and I wouldn't care. Not that I would answer a phone call from him. With no kids and no shared finances...there is no need to talk to him.


----------



## BlueWoman

Okay...scratch that last post. It would definitely bother me. Started to feel the twinge of....I don't know. 

But it's not as overwhelming as it used to be and I guess that's okay. I was actually disconcerted by my sudden seeming to get over it. While I wish that's how it would happen...I know that's not really good. 

Still, I've got a good mantra when I feel the twinges. "He's not that special."


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## Chuck71

Providence..... you still love him in a certain way and most likely always will

but it doesn't mean you still love him. It's what it was a long time ago


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Sometimes we have a hard time letting go when we experience a certain level of hurt. We want justice, or something like having them crawling back to simply state that they were wrong and sorry for the hurt they have caused. Some of us want the chance to reject them like they have rejected us. Again, that is too much focusing on them.

We like fairness, and equality, especially when we are the injured party. Think of how much you tried to improve his life and him. Then in the end, he is the one who rejected you, even though you pushed him to be a better person.


----------



## BlueWoman

Chuck71 said:


> Providence..... you still love him in a certain way and most likely always will
> 
> but it doesn't mean you still love him. It's what it was a long time ago


Maybe. I don't really wish ill on him. (Well I do wish that he suddenly realized how stupid he was and came crawling back so I could say no. But I can live without it. ) 

I don't really respect or like him. 

I probably would like him if I hadn't been married to him. Because he's not actually a horrible person. He's just immature and too selfish for marriage. 

But I did marry him, and that's the standard to hold to him. Big failure. 

So April 20th is my court date to change my legal name. I spend a long time trying to figure out what to do. If I had had kids, I would have kept my married name. I know it's common to go back to ones maiden name. But to be honest. I never much liked my maiden name. The name comes from a man who doesn't actually think I'm his biological child. Mother swears he is. But even if he is, he's had nothing to do with my life. So I didn't really feel any pride about my last name. 

So instead, I'm dropping the last name all together. I'll make my middle name my last name. And as I'm pretty much past child bearing years, I don't imagine I'll ever change my name again.


----------



## Chuck71

His heartache will be seeing you move forward. I promise that.

You may not ever see it. Then again, you may.

Anyone you treated with kindness, always returns at some time.

I have seen it with myself and others for 25 years. It is clockwork.

And when you least expect it.


----------



## BlueWoman

I hope I get to see it, but I'm trying really hard not to think too much about it. 

Cancelled my date this weekend. Mostly because allergies are kicking my @ss. I have so much allergy medicine in my, my kidneys could open their own pharmacy. 

Also the reality is I just don't think I'm ready. I get lonely, but I really hate online dating.


----------



## BlueWoman

Feeling a bit sad today. Perhaps a bit of self pity. Okay, no perhaps about it. 

I've had these moment before when I realize I have no one. I have no family that I belong to. I have a mother and a brother. My mother...well our relationship is complicated. Or maybe it's not. She is in my life out of obligation, but she is the only other person who has hurt me as bad as my XH and as a result I keep her at arms length. She's not trust worthy in terms of being close. 

And my brother...well we grew in an abusive situation. I got most of the abuse, but he wasn't immune. And while my father wasn't in the picture his was, and our mother and his father used him as a pawn in their ugly divorce. So he's completely emotionally stunted. It's hard to be close to someone like that. 

And I know it's self pity...because lots of people have no family. No one they are attached to and they aren't miserable. Or at least I assume they aren't miserable. 

I think I'm going to start IC again this summer. I'll have time. Just have to get the insurance thing straightened out.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Some people create a family, my best friends are like my brother and sister to me. I too, grew up in an abusive home, and well lots of dysfunctional people. It is a shallow relationship.

I understand what your going through, and hopefully, you can create a family of people that care about you.

The good thing about us, as we meet new people, we tell them that my best friends are my brother and sister, and so some people believe that they are my blood relatives.


----------



## Wolf1974

BlueWoman said:


> Day 2 of feeling ok. Of course, I'm still on heavy cold medicine.
> 
> My mantra of the day is "He's just not that special."
> 
> He's not. We're not. *We were a cliche. *
> 
> I realize my next job is to figure out if I am capable of being in a functional marriage? And if not, make changes if I can. Also, I have to examine my rug sweeping.
> 
> I think I'm still in the process of dealing with the divorce, but it's about me and not about him. He's stopped being all that important.
> 
> So anyone have any good reading material advice on how to stop being codependent in relationships?


this is one of the best parts about this place. Discovering you're not alone and what happened to you happened to many of us. We all were shocked, well many of us, and all took time to heal. Healing can be a shared experience and that is one of the benefits of TAM. You will learn some good things here


----------



## SamuraiJack

Wolf1974 said:


> this is one of the best parts about this place. Discovering you're not alone and what happened to you happened to many of us. We all were shocked, well many of us, and all took time to heal. Healing can be a shared experience and that is one of the benefits of TAM. You will learn some good things here


This is quite true.
I think if I had found TAM when my marriage was plumetting towards the earth, I might have recovered more quickly.

Misery really does love company.
Hell I had never even heard of the term "Walk Away Wife" until I came here.

BlueWoman, I think getting into IC again FOR YOUR GOALS, not just mere survival is going to be a great thing for you.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Feeling a bit sad today. Perhaps a bit of self pity. Okay, no perhaps about it.
> 
> I've had these moment before when I realize I have no one. I have no family that I belong to. I have a mother and a brother. My mother...well our relationship is complicated. Or maybe it's not. She is in my life out of obligation, but she is the only other person who has hurt me as bad as my XH and as a result I keep her at arms length. She's not trust worthy in terms of being close.
> 
> And my brother...well we grew in an abusive situation. I got most of the abuse, but he wasn't immune. And while my father wasn't in the picture his was, and our mother and his father used him as a pawn in their ugly divorce. So he's completely emotionally stunted. It's hard to be close to someone like that.
> 
> And I know it's self pity...because lots of people have no family. No one they are attached to and they aren't miserable. Or at least I assume they aren't miserable.
> 
> I think I'm going to start IC again this summer. I'll have time. Just have to get the insurance thing straightened out.


Hey, Blue... just reading through your threads today. You're going to have these moments, and it's OK. It's part of the grieving process, and it's not going to be linear. Every day doesn't get progressively, incrementally better. Some days are really good, some days really suck, and some days are a roller coaster all on their own. But eventually, the good days start to outnumbers the bad.

I've had those moments, too, when I felt like I had no one. It's not easy. My relationship with my mother is similar; she was emotionally abusive, and her relationship with my father is very dysfunctional, and she still tries to control everyone. My XH is just like her... which is why I think I married him. She's still in my life, out of obligation, but I keep her at arm's length... and my sister tries to guilt trip me about it, telling me that I need to "open my heart." Oy. 

I think Mr. Fisty has a really great comment/idea, about us creating our own family. I really had to invest a lot of time in creating a new social life for myself, which was a challenge because I'm outgoing, but I'm also an introvert. It took some time, but I made some good friends who 1) love me for who I am, without condition; 2) help me to feel safe and secure in a way my marriage and FOO never did; and 3) will have my back, no matter what. If you FOO isn't there for you, then you can make a FOF (Family Of Friends, I just made that up!) who will be. It takes time, but it's worth the investment. And like it is with dating and relationships, you'll have a number of false starts and friendships that peter out. While I was on my "friend quest" I made lots of new friends... and most of them didn't last. We were friends for a short period of time, but for some reason or other, we just drifted apart. I did my best to invest in the friendships, but they're not all meant to last.

You asked, on the first page of this thread, for good reading material. I started a thread on resources 1.5 yrs ago that never took off, unfortunately. I'm resurrecting it and posting some more links today, since you reminded me. You might find some helpful info/resources there:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ng-through-separation-divorce-rebuilding.html

And something that was a little silly, but which I found helpful and still do... I set inspirational memes/GIFs as the home/lock screen on my phone. I follow one or two Facebook pages that post these types of things all the time, and whenever I see one that I like, I take a screenshot and set it on my phone... which means I have a new one pretty much every day. So every time I look at my phone, it's telling me something positive and inspirational. Doing something like that could help to counter-act the self-defeating and negative thoughts when they pop up.


----------



## BlueWoman

Oh...that's a great thread. Just downloaded two books to my Kindle. Now if only, I could find some time.


----------



## BlueWoman

And did I mention that I was fostering kittens? 

Why is this important? 

I fell in love with my XH when we rescued a 4 day old kitten and raised him. I loved him for that. 

This was before we were married and I had assumed (because he said he was willing ) that we would have children, and he seemed so caring and loving.

We had difficulty conceiving, and my one pregnancy ended in miscarriage. And about 3 years ago he told me he didn't want to have children. 

And to be honest...I was sad, but I was also okay with this decision. It had been hard for us. But I still had maternal desires. A desire to nurture. Two years ago, a friend committed suicide. We had been friends since we were teenagers. A close friend (who is my landlady with her husband now) and I had always joked that we would sneak in a cat to my friend. After he died, I decided I was going to get him a cat anyway. So my close friend who is Vet at Animal Welfare, kept her eye out for the right cat. We she found him, he was only 3 weeks old, and I fostered him with the attempt to adopt. 

XH was game. After all this was also his close friend who had died. 
I enjoyed it. It was during the summer and I had the time and it felt like something meaningful. We kept that cat and I took him when we split.

But afterwards, I really felt like that was something I could do. They always need fosters and I had a knack for it. It took care of my maternal urges as well as my desire to give to my community. But my ex wasn't having any of it. And it was so frustrating. It became a theme for him, telling me "no" to things I wanted to do to meet my own emotional needs. 

Right before we split up, I told him I was sick of him saying "no" to me about everything...and I was doing it anyway. I'm glad I did then, because it gave me something to focus on when we split. 

And it's kitten season again, and I've got a litter of 3. I will take care of them until they are ready to be adopted. And it feels good. Yes it's work, but it's also fun. And they are doing so well. And it feels good to do something for me and my values.


----------



## Chuck71

I am extremely sorry to learn about your miscarriage. I completely can relate

to wanting to be a parent. I am 43, not as critical an age being I am male.

But I always was attracted to older women. Now... I have to change my game

plan. My XW was seven years older than I. She developed "female issues" and

was unable to. She tried very hard to and I greatly respected this. Her effort was

much more important than the outcome. I accepted the fact, I would not have children.

After the D, the post-D g/f... one child grown and was receptive to having another.

Near the end of our relationship, I discovered she was back on the pill. That was

a knife in my heart.... being she never asked my thoughts at all. Did I end it over

that.... no.... but it was a major catalyst in the end. A true "relationship

partner" will never impede your desire to meet your emotional needs. This is what

makes you.....you. It makes you more attractive and capable of participating in a 

LTR.


----------



## FeministInPink

Chuck71 said:


> I am extremely sorry to learn about your miscarriage. I completely can relate
> 
> to wanting to be a parent. I am 43, not as critical an age being I am male.
> 
> But I always was attracted to older women. Now... I have to change my game
> 
> plan. My XW was seven years older than I. She developed "female issues" and
> 
> was unable to. She tried very hard to and I greatly respected this. Her effort was
> 
> much more important than the outcome. I accepted the fact, I would not have children.
> 
> After the D, the post-D g/f... one child grown and was receptive to having another.
> 
> Near the end of our relationship, I discovered she was back on the pill. That was
> 
> a knife in my heart.... being she never asked my thoughts at all. Did I end it over
> 
> that.... no.... but it was a major catalyst in the end. *A true "relationship
> 
> partner" will never impede your desire to meet your emotional needs. *This is what
> 
> makes you.....you. It makes you more attractive and capable of participating in a
> 
> LTR.


^^^ THIS. :iagree:

I TRUE relationship partner will encourage you and help you to meet your emotional needs.

A "partner" who intentionally impedes? That's controlling, manipulative, abusive behavior.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Oh...that's a great thread. Just downloaded two books to my Kindle. Now if only, I could find some time.


If you want to make time to read, a good trick is creating triggers. Like... make a point to read a couple pages every time you go to the bathroom. Or read on the subway ride to/from work. Or read for 20 mins before bed every night. Something like that, to help you create a habit. 

I've gotten into a bad habit of playing too many games on my e-reader. So if I find myself flipping it open to play a game, I tell myself that I can play the game, but I have to read 5 pages of my current book first. I end up getting caught up in the book and forget all about the game 

I haven't finished all the books on the list... if you PM me and tell me which ones you're reading, maybe I can read along at the same time 

ETA: And thanks! If you come across any resources/books that you would like to add, please feel free to post on the thread.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

FeministInPink said:


> *I've gotten into a bad habit of playing too many games on my e-reader. * So if I find myself flipping it open to play a game, I tell myself that I can play the game, but I have to read 5 pages of my current book first. I end up getting caught up in the book and forget all about the game


THIS is the reason I bought a bare-bones Kindle!  No games, no browser, just books!


----------



## SamuraiJack

3Xnocharm said:


> THIS is the reason I bought a bare-bones Kindle!  No games, no browser, just books!


You can hack those to play games and such...jes sayin. 

(Ducks behind couch)


----------



## 3Xnocharm

SamuraiJack said:


> You can hack those to play games and such...jes sayin.
> 
> (Ducks behind couch)


----------



## BlueWoman

Truthfully, I'm on the go so much settling down to read is hard. I do a lot of audiobooks though, because I can listen and do simple tasks at the same time. I did get one audiobook about codependency. But the other book I downloaded didn't have an audio version.


----------



## BlueWoman

> I see this one recommended a lot: Co-Dependent No More
> When you want to break your habits of co-dependency. There's also a companion workbook. I haven't read this one yet, but it's on my to-read list at the moment.


This is one of the books from FIP's link. I've been listening to it. And while I definitely see characteristic of the co dependent in me...this talks more about the spouse and substances/food/gambling abuse. And that just wasn't the case in my relationship. 

Still interesting. 


> The Emotionally Absent Mother: A Guide to Self-Healing and Getting the Love You Missed
> I've realized that a lot of my issues in relationships stem from my anti-relationship with my mother growing up. I picked this up to start working through those, and I'm reading it right now. It's taking a little longer than I expecting, because it's pushing a lot of buttons... which is good, because I know it's doing the job. This book seems to be geared towards women, but I think male readers could benefit as well, if they had a weak/flawed relationship with their mother.


This is next on my reading list. No audio version, it seems, but this describes me completely. And possibly describes my mother. I think she would say her Mother was emotionally absent. And my Grandmother would probably say her own mother was emotionally absent. And we would all be right. 

So here's something...I always knew that I wanted to end the cycle of emotional (and in certain generations, physical) abuse in my family. Turns out not having kids is a good way to do it.


----------



## FeministInPink

For a lot of people, co-dependent=enabling an addict spouse. But you still might get some use out of it.

I'm reading the Emotionally Absent Mother right now. I can only read a little bit at a time, because it's pulling up a LOT of stuff, and it's difficult. A lot to deal with. I recommend taking your time with that one, if you need to.

I also think my mother would say her mother was emotionally absent, etc... which is, in a way, defensive/blameshifting, isn't it? The difference between us and our mothers is that we're taking ownership, making change, and breaking the cycle.


----------



## BlueWoman

FeministInPink said:


> I also think my mother would say her mother was emotionally absent, etc... which is, in a way, defensive/blameshifting, isn't it? The difference between us and our mothers is that we're taking ownership, making change, and breaking the cycle.


I agree...but suppose I had kids in my 20's? Would I have been ready to break the pattern? I am not sure I would have been. At that time, I was still heavily justifying my mothers behavior. It really wasn't until my mid 30's that I began to accept how messed up my mother's behavior was. When you are dependent on someone you tend to rug sweep bad behavior. 

It's hard to break that habit. 

One of our family stories is the fight my mother and I had on my 13th birthday. 

My birthday is in September. The prior summer my brother and I had spent with our grandparents. While we were there my mom calls and says we are moving out of our city. She had good reasons for it, she got a better job and was preparing to go to law school. But I was tween who was upset that I was leaving all of my friends behind. It should also be noted that we had also moved the previous year. (Again, not my mothers fault. She was divorcing my brothers father and he bought out her share of the house so we had to move.) 

Anyway, on the day of my birthday, I woke up in a crabby mood. Typically my mom gave a special breakfast for our birthday, but for some reason she hadn't that day. On that day she offered my a box of cereal. So I was disappointed. And I also wasn't a fan of Amaranth (that's what she was giving me.) So I refused to eat it. Not very mature of me.

My mother took offense at this and for the next half hour we fought from one of the house to another with her trying to force feed me this cereal. By the end of it I had a bloody nose and a fat lip. 

My mother remembers this story as how awful I was. 

I was 37 and pregnant when I finally pointed out that it didn't matter how awful I was...because I was the child. Thirteen year olds aren't known for dealing well with stress and disappointment. They are not equipped yet. She was the adult...and that it didn't matter what I did, it didn't excuse her behavior. 

At that time, I was pretty certain I would never leave a child unsupervised with her because she couldn't see how wrong her behavior was. 

The last time my mother hit me was right after my 18th birthday. She had been a lawyer for less than a year, but knew criminal law pretty well. I pointed out to her that her hitting me was now considered battery because I was an adult. She never laid a hand on me. But the emotional abuse continues to this day. Of course now a days when she throws a fit, I just check out. Her most recent tantrum was in January. She was angry that I didn't call her on her birthday. I was traveling, something I had told her. I had also sent her an edible delights basket which was delivered on her birthday. 

So after letting me know that she wasn't happy with me, she quit speaking to me for about 8 weeks. I didn't complain. Sadly the day she finally got of her snit and decided to talk to me was the same day I found out my X had been cheating on me. I was a wreck and way too emotional.


----------



## BlueWoman

On another topic, you know what I miss? I miss my engagement ring. I loved that ring. I mean I still have it, but I couldn't bare to wear it. 

It was a sapphire with two diamonds. Some have suggested that I get it made into a pendant or necklace, but it hardly seems worth it...given that is was a very flawed sapphire and not really worth much. But I loved it because it was my favorite stone, and I loved it because of what it meant. 
It doesn't mean that anymore. 
I still feel for my rings and have slight panic when I don't find them on my fingers.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> I agree...but suppose I had kids in my 20's? Would I have been ready to break the pattern? I am not sure I would have been. At that time, I was still heavily justifying my mothers behavior. It really wasn't until my mid 30's that I began to accept how messed up my mother's behavior was. When you are dependent on someone you tend to rug sweep bad behavior.


Maybe, maybe not. I think it's dependent on a lot of other factors. And even if you (universal you, not you BlueWoman specifically) first had kids in your 20's, that doesn't prevent you from making those discoveries later... say, in your 30's. And even if you weren't emotionally available to your children when they were very small, you can still change your behavior and be a better parent as they grow older.

But maybe it takes some major shake-up (like a divorce) to open one's eyes to this sort of thing. Maybe not. My sister seems pretty clued in, and is determined to be a better mother than the one we had. But sometimes, she talks to her kids and our mother's voice come out...

It's funny... my mom has this whole diatribe about how younger people today (in other words, my generation and younger) don't know how to take responsibility for themselves, that EVERYTHING is the parents' fault, we blame all our problems on the parents, and we just need to get over ourselves and grow up, and take responsibility for our own problems. It makes me roll my eyes a little bit, inside... _ok, mom... I'd like to see you take responsibility for the fact that you're a sh!tty mother and a selfish, manipulative person. _ Because my mom blames all her failures and problems in life on other people. My mother has never taken responsibility for ANYTHING, and I have never heard her apologize to another person.


----------



## BlueWoman

FeministInPink said:


> It's funny... my mom has this whole diatribe about how younger people today (in other words, my generation and younger) don't know how to take responsibility for themselves, that EVERYTHING is the parents' fault, we blame all our problems on the parents, and we just need to get over ourselves and grow up, and take responsibility for our own problems. It makes me roll my eyes a little bit, inside... _ok, mom... I'd like to see you take responsibility for the fact that you're a sh!tty mother and a selfish, manipulative person. _ Because my mom blames all her failures and problems in life on other people. My mother has never taken responsibility for ANYTHING, and I have never heard her apologize to another person.


So did we have the same mother? Actually my mom doesn't complain a lot about the younger generation. But she used to project her flaws on to me. I can remember thinking that the way my mom was taking care of a problem was doing was irresponsible...only to have her tell me that I was irresponsible. I was her favorite scapegoat. And she doesn't apologize at all. 

So I'm in her life now on limited terms. And I think she knows it. She had cancer last year and is in remission now. But her odds of it coming back are pretty likely. And her odds of surviving the second time round are poor. So I'm around and help out when needed. But I don't put a lot of energy into our relationship. She now knows if she quits speaking to me, I'm not going to be apologizing. I don't feel guilt anymore just because she's unhappy. 

But man, the patterns that I see in my life...I see how they were developed from early on. Maybe I've finally broken the pattern with my mother, but I carry them on with other people. 
And I definitely carried them into my marriage. 
I hope I can do the work it takes to have a healthy relationship someday.


----------



## FeministInPink

BW, we could have had the same mother!

I'm also only in my mom's life on limited terms... I would be even less, except that would also cost me my relationships with other family members. Even though I haven't cut off contact, I still get sh!t from my sister about it... so now I've got her guilt tripping me about it. She says to me, "Open your heart, FiP"... the same sister with whom I've commiserated and bonded over what an awful mom we had growing up. So I think mom is pulling Sis's heartstrings to get to me. After the second or third time that Sis tried this, I said, "You need to stay out of sh!t that isn't your business. I know mom's trying to make it your business, but there's a lot more to this situation than you can know, so you need to stay out of it." Sis hasn't brought it up again, but Sis and I are definitely talking less now than we were before, and that makes me sad. But I needed to draw that line, and she can either respect it or not. She's respected it so far.

But yes, the patterns... and once you have established patterns with individuals, it's very hard to break them, as evidenced above. It makes other people uncomfortable. I actively make sure that I don't repeat these patterns with new people in my life... as a result, the new friendships I've established are by far the healthier friendships. And I'm working on breaking them with people who have been in my life longer, but it makes them uncomfortable. My Sis clearly didn't like the boundary that I set with her, and breaking these behaviors with my mother is really uncomfortable, because it means that my mom is redirecting more energy towards my sister. But if Sis has a problem with that, then she needs to work on her own boundaries with our mom, and I don't think that she will.

I also carried them into my marriage, too... and married a man who was just like my mother. He knew how to pull my strings from day one, I think. I'm just happy that I was able to recognize it, which means I'll be able to identify it with potential partners in the future... and run away!


----------



## Chuck71

This is very insightful. This is one area I have not heard much about in my field of study.


----------



## FeministInPink

Chuck71 said:


> This is very insightful. This is one area I have not heard much about in my field of study.


What's your field of study, Chuck?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Seeking doctorate in psychology. My specialty is dealing with criminals.

Just about every criminal (not counting Wall Street insider trading, etc) I have spoken with

had childhood issues. I see mostly where girls have been abused sexually, psychically, emotionally 

by males or there were no males around in the girl's "formative" years.

I've been involved where mother / daughter issues are paramount but.... not often.


----------



## FeministInPink

I don't think it's specifically mother/daughter as much as it is primary caregiver/child. It's just that the two examples here are mother/daughter.

I think if my mom had been the breadwinner, and my dad was my f/t caregiver, my story would be very different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueWoman

Difficult for me to say...my mother was a single parent except for the 4 years she was married to my Brother's dad. 

Okay...so in attempt to keep balance I am going to acknowledge, that while my mother was a horrible parent, she is not a horrible person. I do have to keep firm boundaries with her, but she's not evil. 

So my one good thing her to balance out the negatives. When I was a child we were very poor. Started Law School when I was 13 and graduated when I was 17. Once she started making money, she was extremely generous financially with me. When my Grandmother passed away, my mother came into a sizable inheritance, and she continues to be generous with both my brother and myself.


----------



## BlueWoman

FeministInPink said:


> I'm reading the Emotionally Absent Mother right now. I can only read a little bit at a time, because it's pulling up a LOT of stuff, and it's difficult. A lot to deal with.  I recommend taking your time with that one, if you need to.


Holy Crap! You weren't kidding. I made it to page 17 before I burst into tears. 

Just the characteristics of a good enough mother was painful. I think the only thing she was good at was keeping me safe. On the most part, I think that woman would have killed to keep me safe. She lived in fear of having her children kidnapped. But she wasn't all that overbearing in that manner either. We played freely on our street and in our neighbors houses...but it was safe. Or at least I felt safe.


----------



## Chuck71

BlueWoman said:


> Difficult for me to say...my mother was a single parent except for the 4 years she was married to my Brother's dad.
> 
> Okay...so in attempt to keep balance I am going to acknowledge, that while my mother was a horrible parent, she is not a horrible person. I do have to keep firm boundaries with her, but she's not evil.
> 
> So my one good thing her to balance out the negatives. When I was a child we were very poor. Started Law School when I was 13 and graduated when I was 17. Once she started making money, she was extremely generous financially with me. When my Grandmother passed away, my mother came into a sizable inheritance, and she continues to be generous with both my brother and myself.


I have spoke on pop several times in my current thread. He was a pi$$ poor parent in many ways.

But he was a master teacher when I was older. Thankfully I had a great mom. She would do without

to give to me if she had to. She did and I noticed it more as I grew older. If I ever marry and 

have kids, if the woman is half the mom to them, mine was to me.... things will be great.

Pop and I had issues father / son, some similar to your mother / daughter issues. They were unique,

yet different. I can understand clearly what you are saying, just on the other side of the 

gender fence. Pop wasn't the type to tell you if you did a good job, he saw that as "being

expected." Now if you did a great job.... yes he would acknowledge it.

I was a senior in high school, pop asked me to wash the riding mower. I washed it.

He told me that was the best job he had ever seen. It looked like one on a showroom.

Instead of feeling a sense of accomplishment, it pi$$ed me off. After he went in, I urinated on it.

Why did you do that Chuck? I viewed everything at that age as concrete, not abstract.

Up until around 15, it was 80 / 20 as far as great memories, mom being 80. Pop felt he should

take on a more active role only when I was older, maybe it was the way he was raised.

I hated him for the very same reasons I love him. I worked for him as a teen... I was great example of 

cheap labor. He wanted $20 per hour work for $5 per hour pay.

But it made entering the real work force a bike ride in the park.

The only thing I hate is he died when I was 24.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Holy Crap! You weren't kidding. I made it to page 17 before I burst into tears.
> 
> Just the characteristics of a good enough mother was painful. I think the only thing she was good at was keeping me safe. On the most part, I think that woman would have killed to keep me safe. She lived in fear of having her children kidnapped. But she wasn't all that overbearing in that manner either. We played freely on our street and in our neighbors houses...but it was safe. Or at least I felt safe.


YEAH. That's what I meant... reading the characteristics was painful for me, too. I did the exact same thing, with the bursting into tears. 

I read on the Metro (subway) on my way to work, and I brought this one along with me to start a few weeks ago, and... yeah. I made it up to about page 16 or 17 when I started crying. Just those first few pages validates years of pain, frustration, and loneliness... I had to put it away. Not reading that one in public again.

I'm only up to page 32, BTW. I keep going back and re-reading sections to a) see if I really read what I thought I just read, and b) try to absorb more and process it. I'll read a single section multiple times before I move on, and then I usually go back and read it again.

Just the first chapter has been invaluable... I can't imagine what's going to happen for me as I continue. I think this book is going to be life-changing for me. It's occurred to me that I need to get a notebook and start journaling as I read. I think that exercise will prove invaluable. But oh, it's going to be hard.


----------



## FeministInPink

I was going to say, you know, we're going really off topic RE the thread... but it's your thread, so we can talk about whatever we want!


----------



## FeministInPink

Chuck71 said:


> I have spoke on pop several times in my current thread. He was a pi$$ poor parent in many ways.
> 
> But he was a master teacher when I was older. Thankfully I had a great mom. She would do without
> 
> to give to me if she had to. She did and I noticed it more as I grew older. If I ever marry and
> 
> have kids, if the woman is half the mom to them, mine was to me.... things will be great.
> 
> Pop and I had issues father / son, some similar to your mother / daughter issues. They were unique,
> 
> yet different. I can understand clearly what you are saying, just on the other side of the
> 
> gender fence. Pop wasn't the type to tell you if you did a good job, he saw that as "being
> 
> expected." Now if you did a great job.... yes he would acknowledge it.
> 
> I was a senior in high school, pop asked me to wash the riding mower. I washed it.
> 
> He told me that was the best job he had ever seen. It looked like one on a showroom.
> 
> Instead of feeling a sense of accomplishment, it pi$$ed me off. After he went in, I urinated on it.
> 
> Why did you do that Chuck? I viewed everything at that age as concrete, not abstract.
> 
> Up until around 15, it was 80 / 20 as far as great memories, mom being 80. *Pop felt he should
> 
> take on a more active role only when I was older, maybe it was the way he was raised.*
> 
> I hated him for the very same reasons I love him. I worked for him as a teen... I was great example of
> 
> cheap labor. He wanted $20 per hour work for $5 per hour pay.
> 
> But it made entering the real work force a bike ride in the park.
> 
> The only thing I hate is he died when I was 24.


I think there are probably a lot of men who were raised that way, and so that's how they saw their role. Both my grandfathers were like that. My maternal grandfather had 5 kids, and the first time he changed a diaper was when I came along (I was the first grandkid). Somehow, he ended up watching me by himself for a couple of hours, and the diaper needed changing, and there were no women around, so... that might have been the first time he was ever left alone with a baby!

My dad was not like that, at all. He loves babies and little kids, and I was his little girl. He changed my diapers, fed me, sang me lullabies, read books to me with voices...

I'm sorry that your dad died when you were probably just getting to know him. It sounds like your relationship would have continued to get better over time.


----------



## BlueWoman

FeministInPink said:


> I was going to say, you know, we're going really off topic RE the thread... but it's your thread, so we can talk about whatever we want!


  Sort of. But in a way it's related for me. I am comparing who I was raised to be with who I am in the marriage. 

I would like someday to find another relationship, but I want to choose better and do better. I want to have better boundaries. Working on my relationship with my mother, should help me achieve that.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Sort of. But in a way it's related for me. I am comparing who I was raised to be with who I am in the marriage.
> 
> I would like someday to find another relationship, but I want to choose better and do better. I want to have better boundaries. Working on my relationship with my mother, should help me achieve that.


Agreed... and it is your thread, so it's not really off-topic if you're involved in the convo and it's helpful to you, right?

And I am right there with you, on everything you've said. I'm working on the same thing. I clearly made a very poor choice with my XH. I was young, inexperienced, and not terribly self-aware... I'm already making better choices, but working through these issues will put me worlds ahead of where I am right now, I think. 

And I think the same for you


----------



## BlueWoman

I have to rush to work...but I wanted to share/save this. I have thoughts to be written down later.

Why I hate Mother's Day


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> I have to rush to work...but I wanted to share/save this. I have thoughts to be written down later.
> 
> Why I hate Mother's Day


I've read this article several times before. And it sums up my feelings about the holiday quite succinctly. I think Anne Lamott is a fascinating writer. I don't always agree with her, but I do enjoy reading her work.

I always forget about Mother's Day... but I stopped feeling bad about it, since my mother never remembers my birthday. But this year, I get to spend Mother's Day with her because my niece's birthday party is on Mother's Day.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the article.


----------



## Chuck71

FeministInPink said:


> I think there are probably a lot of men who were raised that way, and so that's how they saw their role. Both my grandfathers were like that. My maternal grandfather had 5 kids, and the first time he changed a diaper was when I came along (I was the first grandkid). Somehow, he ended up watching me by himself for a couple of hours, and the diaper needed changing, and there were no women around, so... that might have been the first time he was ever left alone with a baby!
> 
> My dad was not like that, at all. He loves babies and little kids, and I was his little girl. He changed my diapers, fed me, sang me lullabies, read books to me with voices...
> 
> I'm sorry that your dad died when you were probably just getting to know him. It sounds like your relationship would have continued to get better over time.


Geography had a lot to do with mine. I grew up in rural east TN (near Chattanooga). Pop used to tell

me the South was agrarian based, just like the North at one time. The North industrialized while

the South remained agrarian (growing season). When the North moved past industry, they went South.

As late as the 1970's a high school education was really not needed in the South.... you're going to

work in a factory... as long as you can read, write, tell time... you're fine. Wages vs. Cost Living were

quite good then. When industry went to foreign countries... the South paid dearly. Pop said this in 1993.

As a teacher in the South for many years, I noticed kids stopped doing homework around 3rd grade.

They told me their parents can't help them.... they don't know how to do the work.

It will take three generations at least to recover. But as far as changing diapers... never have once.

But no brothers or sisters, and in the South.... if it came down to me, a PhD candidate or a female

who is mentally challenged, they would ask her to change the baby first. That is the culture in the South.

Pop changed me a few times but if mom was around.... it was mom. My high school / college running buddy

and I changed his sister's baby. We tag teamed it and still had a hard time doing it.


----------



## SamuraiJack

BlueWoman said:


> I have to rush to work...but I wanted to share/save this. I have thoughts to be written down later.
> 
> Why I hate Mother's Day


I feel the same way about father's day....just another made up holiday to sell cards for.


----------



## Chuck71

I made my own cards for anniversaries with females, mom and pop. 

I refuse to pay $3.99 for a card when I can do a better job. And the recipient will like it ALOT more

coming from "your" heart than some nit wit scribe.


----------



## BlueWoman

Mother's Day is usually a day of conflict for me. Well not the day exactly but the time leading up to it. None of the cards represent how I feel...But on the other hand I don't feel like she should be snubbed. She may have been awful at mothering, but she is still my mother...and in her flawed way she loves me. Actually I take that back...her love isn't flawed, just the way she expresses it. 

But every once in a while she'll get it right. Can we make a card like that? 

You are flawed but every once in a while you get it right! Happy Mother's day!


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

BlueWoman said:


> I have to rush to work...but I wanted to share/save this. I have thoughts to be written down later.
> 
> Why I hate Mother's Day


Maybe it's just the mood I'm in today, and this is coming from a guy that can't stand just about every holiday except Thanksgiving or National Beer Day, but that article just rubbed me wrong way. Had the feel of someone just wanting to complain about something, or manufactured angst. Then again, I'm no mother, just an awesome son

DPR


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Mother's Day is usually a day of conflict for me. Well not the day exactly but the time leading up to it. None of the cards represent how I feel...But on the other hand I don't feel like she should be snubbed. She may have been awful at mothering, but she is still my mother...and in her flawed way she loves me. Actually I take that back...her love isn't flawed, just the way she expresses it.
> 
> But every once in a while she'll get it right. Can we make a card like that?
> 
> You are flawed but every once in a while you get it right! Happy Mother's day!


YES!!! Exactly this.


----------



## BlueWoman

In the meantime. Feeling a little bit sad right now. I don't know why, but often when I go out I have fun, but on my way home I think about the X. 

He changed his password to facebook...but he changed it to is second most common password. I was curious and checked...so yeah...I can still get in and read his messages. I took a peek when I checked, but I didn't look very hard. 

And I don't want to look now...but I want to look? You know that urge to look at something that you know is going to upset you? 

So I'm not looking. Instead I'm writing here....and I'm going to bed. 

I am not looking. Although seriously, what and idiot! He changes his password to his next most common password? That's just dumb.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Don't look anymore...you know it will just keep you thinking of him....gotta cut yourself off and never use his password again.

You can do this.

The only way to really let go is to go totally NC and that means, not even looking at his FB at all.

Yes, he's an idiot but...you gotta be strong. For you.


----------



## Chuck71

BW...... where was your focus at last night? You are a few years younger than I but we have a similar

desire..... children. How do you see your standing about having children? I am aware age plays 

a larger factor with you. If you met someone before 2015 concluded.... and it was something

you saw as great potential, what would your thoughts be?


----------



## BlueWoman

Faithful Wife said:


> You can do this.


Thanks! I didn't look. I went to bed instead...and this morning have no desire to look.


----------



## BlueWoman

Chuck71 said:


> BW...... where was your focus at last night?


I'm not sure I understand the question. 



Chuck71 said:


> You are a few years younger than I but we have a similar
> 
> desire..... children. How do you see your standing about having children? I am aware age plays
> 
> a larger factor with you. If you met someone before 2015 concluded.... and it was something
> 
> you saw as great potential, what would your thoughts be?


That's a good question...and the answer is, I don't know. I will be 43 at the end of 2015...and I am pretty sure pregnancy is out for me. Age and PCOS make that a reality. So would I adopt? Well I am not opposed. 
I actually considered going through children's youth and family and fostering an older child. I think I have the capability to be a great parent.

But I don't want to be a single parent. And being a parent means giving up on some other things (which would be fine in the right circumstances). 

And honestly...I really don't see me finding someone I would want to parent with before the end of 2015. I'm not even comfortable dating right now. 

So I have a secret fantasy that I will meet the man of my dreams and he will already have children...and eventually I will get to be Grandma without ever have to raise my own kids.


----------



## Chuck71

First part was about the FB deal.


----------



## BlueWoman

Oh. Well the answer is I don't know. 

I still have moments, many moments, where I am terribly hurt by the end of marriage. I still wonder how someone I thought I knew so well could do something so awful. I am typically more vulnerable to that though process in the evening. 

But I know every time I do look, I get upset. So I thought yesterday, instead of giving into the urge...I would write about it here. And that worked. 

I didn't look. I don't need to know what he's doing.


----------



## Chuck71

Wow.... we are same age. You may have explained what PCOS was earlier.

What is it again? I'm in a weird position. Always was attracted to older

women.... the maturity, forwardness. I have never dated a female in her 20s.

I did date some in their 20s but we were teens when we met. Now.... if I want

children with a female who does not already have them, I may very well be

dating females in their 20s. Hard pill to swallow for me. Best case scenario

is meet a female who was also married a # of years but had no children and is

somewhat close to my age. I'm still open to something similar to what UG and I

agreed upon.... had child young, grown.... still receptive to having additional children.

Sadly.....in my area, it is still commonplace to marry young and have a handful of

children. I see tons of them on dating sites now.... divorced, four kids, 31 y/o but

doesn't want any more kids. Truth is.... I wouldn't blame them.


----------



## Chuck71

BlueWoman said:


> Oh. Well the answer is I don't know.
> 
> I still have moments, many moments, where I am terribly hurt by the end of marriage. I still wonder how someone I thought I knew so well could do something so awful. I am typically more vulnerable to that though process in the evening.
> 
> But I know every time I do look, I get upset. So I thought yesterday, instead of giving into the urge...I would write about it here. And that worked.
> 
> I didn't look. I don't need to know what he's doing.


I can relate....... who they were when you dated, right after the 'I do's'

compared to who they turned into. When my XWs mother died... she began

a spiral. My MiL was my 2nd mom.... never thought I would feel that close to

a MiL.... weren't they supposed to be PITA to their SiL? XW had issues with her

dad (he died a year before we met), her mother's death, attachment disorder with

animals, breakdown of mother / son relationship, etc. Look at it this way, we were

lied to.... who they portrayed themselves to be, was a facade. The way he treated 

you the last few years, if he treated you that way in the beginning, would you

have married him?


----------



## BlueWoman

No. I wouldn't have married him. And the person I am now wouldn't have married him based on who was then, either. 

I settled back then. I knew it. But he had loved me for 10 years, and I thought I was strong enough to carry both of us.

And I was for a long time. But it turned out, I began to resent him for not carrying his weight. Particularly when life got hard and I couldn't carry it. 

And given that we hardly had sex, I never would have imagined that he would cheat. 

He's still madly in love with her, and I feel like I got robbed. Because even though we shouldn't be together, it sucks that I'm the one who got hurt and he's never felt that loss. And it's been 10 months, so the reality is that he is never going to recognize that he tossed the best thing that happened to him away. And when I think about it pisses me off. 

I know it doesn't really matter in terms of my well being. What he feels or doesn't feel doesn't actually have anything to do with me. So I try not to dwell. But sometimes.

The house next door to me is on sale and they had an open house. So I decided to go and look. 

Now of course that house is way out of my price range and would have been even if I was still married. But wandering around the house, made me so sad. 

That's a dream I have to put on the back burner. I wanted to buy a house. But we never could. He was going to school and we didn't have any money. 

We finally moved into a wonderful house Jan of 2014. It was a rental, but I loved the house. And of course 9 months later we divorced. I feel cheated. I got so close to a dream, and he pulled it away from me. 

And I guess it wasn't his dream. But he had no dreams. It's sad that being with him meant I had to give up on all my dreams. Of course, when I married him, I had no idea how many dreams he would stand in the way of. 

So yeah right now, feeling sad. 
At least right now, I can say is it's not as bad as it was 2 months ago.


----------



## Chuck71

My relation to what you said is, too real..... very close to home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_GgOysu6o


----------



## BlueWoman

PCOS PolyCystic Ovary Syndrome...
small cysts develop on my ovaries, and I have a hormone imbalance that reduces if not straight up eliminates my ovulation. Come with other side effects of weight gain, difficulty losing weight, acne, and extra body hair. It can also cause insulin resistance. 

I have it all. I can control my insulin with diet. But I am obese...and struggle to lose weight.

Ironically, I am a million times healthier now that I'm not with my X. He was the cook, and he constantly cooked food that was high in calories and simple carbs. He also kept sweets in the house.

Now I buy sweets rarely, almost never eat simple carbs, eat tons more fresh veggies and am down over 35 pounds. I also appear to be done with my last plateau...and the weight is dropping again. And I'm not dieting. I'm just eating what I know I should be eating. It's not complicated it's not hard. But he would be bored to tears with what I eat.

Until the very end, the worst fight we ever had was over food. 

It started in the grocery store. I remember standing inline thinking someone had the most wretched gas. Then we got in the car and the smell followed us. I accused my X of the silent but deadlies. He denied and I finally figured out it was in our grocery bags. It some herbed roast beef that he had bought. It smelled so bad. 

He took offense to me criticizing his food and threw a tantrum. He was so unreasonable that I actually threatened to get out of the car and walk home. 

Food was always a sensitive topic in our house. 

When I was considering weight loss surgery, I found out that a lot people fight about food. But before that, I thought it was just us. It just seems like a bizarre thing to fight about. 

I guess we always fought about money as well. And we probably should have fought about sex. But I told myself I knew he had issues when I married him, so I should just deal. (Of course I never had any inclination that we would go years.) 

Let's face it, even if he hadn't cheated, our marriage was doomed. And actually, I didn't even know he had cheated until six months after our divorce. 

But at the point that we split, I had still wanted to work on our marriage, and I really didn't understand why he wouldn't. I so wish I had found TAM. 

Because I also feel like I was robbed the opportunity to throw him out of the house and tell everyone we knew what a lying cheating Sack of Sh1t he is. 

I feel like he did a horrible thing to me and pretty much got away with it. 

He has lost a few friends over it...but not many. And I have been very hurt by other friends excusing his behavior. 

And other friends who think I shouldn't be upset or as upset. He basically derailed my life and just kept on with the POSOW. 

And you know what is really F^cked up? She doesn't even want him. Apparantly his sexual issues bother her as well. And she tells him she loves him, but isn't in love with him.

It's almost embarrassing. 

Oh well. I think I'm going to drag myself from the gym to distract myself. Then snuggle kittens.


----------



## BlueWoman

Happy Mother's day. 

Talked to my mom today. She noted to me that I hadn't been very communicative with her in the last 5 months. 

That's true. 5 months ago was her birthday. I sent her something, and she threw a tantrum and the didn't speak to me for a while. 

It was a nice reminder to be careful with my mom. She bites. 

But also, there isn't much to say. The big thing in my life is that I am 8 months out from a divorce. That I'm still broken up over it. 

I'm bored of it, and I'm living it. I can only imagine, people around me are tired of hearing it. 

I was looking at old videos of pets, and accidentally ran into one with X messing around with the dogs. And we were having fun in the video...and I was gutted. What happened to that man? How did that man who could make me laugh and loved me like no other, how could he have turned into this person that he is now. 

It's hard to see who he was and reconcile it with who he is now. I knew him much longer as a loving husband than as a liar and a cheat. 

I mean, that's who he is now. He's a liar. He's a cheater. 

I've been in a funk all weekend. I though reactivating my profile on ******* might be a good distraction. But that only made it worse. It's the same guys from before and none of them are appropriate. 

And I shouldn't care that I am probably going to be single forever...but I do. I don't want to settle again, but I also don't want grow old alone either. 

Oh...ignore my pity party.


----------



## SamuraiJack

It's okay Bluewoman,

If it helps any, I havent actually spoken to my mother since I got married. Thats 20 years ago.

As far as the rest...just let it all out and process as you go.

Im pretty certain nobody here will judge you for it.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman and SamuraiJack, came across this article on Facebook, and it made me think of the two of you:

A Toast to All the Brave Kids Who Broke Up with Their Toxic Moms

I really haven't been enjoying all the Mother's Day posts on Facebook... it's going to take a while for them to all disappear from my feed.


----------



## BlueWoman

I saw that article. I quite enjoyed it. It really is very hard thing to accept that your parent wasn't a good parent. At that in fact what happened to you isn't normal. 

And even once you accept that, it doesn't actually heal the wound. You carry it around with you forever.


----------



## SamuraiJack

FeministInPink said:


> BlueWoman and SamuraiJack, came across this article on Facebook, and it made me think of the two of you:
> 
> A Toast to All the Brave Kids Who Broke Up with Their Toxic Moms
> 
> I really haven't been enjoying all the Mother's Day posts on Facebook... it's going to take a while for them to all disappear from my feed.


OMG...I hated Sunday....Everybody showing their great mom's.
I finally bagged off FB and watched a few movies and then found a marathon of "Momsters: When Moms go bad."

I feel better now.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> I saw that article. I quite enjoyed it. It really is very hard thing to accept that your parent wasn't a good parent. At that in fact what happened to you isn't normal.
> 
> And even once you accept that, it doesn't actually heal the wound. You carry it around with you forever.


Well, I think maybe you can heal it, but maybe you still carry the scar around with you.

I haven't broken up with my toxic mom. I don't know that I'll ever be able to do that. I try to limit contact, but the rest of my family is makes it difficult. I'm still trying to figure out what our relationship should be, if I can have some type of adult relationship with her despite the fact that she was (and continues to be) such a sh!tty mother. But I don't really want to. I don't have any emotional connection to her. You know how there are some people you meet in life, and they are perfectly fine/nice people, so you don't actively dislike them, but it wouldn't matter one iota if you never heard from them again? I feel that way about my mother. Just... a complete lack of interest.


----------



## FeministInPink

SamuraiJack said:


> OMG...I hated Sunday....Everybody showing their great mom's.
> I finally bagged off FB and watched a few movies and then found a marathon of "Momsters: When Moms go bad."
> 
> I feel better now.


Ugh, I know! (Where's a barfy emoji when you need it?)

A whole bunch of the pics are still popping up in my feed today... hooray 

I got to see my mom at my niece's birthday party yesterday, and my birthday is next week. Of course, almost everyone wished me a happy birthday as well, except for my mom


----------



## BlueWoman

I did break up with my mom and we didn't speak for three years. She actually started it...She created a reason to be hostile to me. Prior to that it had always been me to bring us back together. But I was so angry with her that I refused to have anything to do with her. She didn't come to my wedding. She finally got in touch with me when my Grandfather died. 

I think she wants a connection with me...but she is very dysfunctional. And occasionally she creates scenarios that she wants but doesn't communicate them...or they aren't reasonable. 

The last time was in January. Before that was about 2 years ago. She was mad at my brother and started yelling at me. I told her I was getting off the phone and the hung up. 

She emailed me a few days later and said, "If you ever hang up on me again I will never speak to you again." I wrote back and said "You do what you gotta do. But if you don't want me hanging up on you don't talk to me like that. I'm not your emotional punching bag." 

She had no comment to that, but she made the first move to talking. 

Breaking up with her changed the dynamics between us significantly. Best thing I could have ever done.


----------



## BlueWoman

FeministInPink said:


> Ugh, I know! (Where's a barfy emoji when you need it?)
> 
> A whole bunch of the pics are still popping up in my feed today... hooray
> 
> I got to see my mom at my niece's birthday party yesterday, and my birthday is next week. Of course, almost everyone wished me a happy birthday as well, except for my mom


I was pretty lucky. My grandmother hated that I wasn't speaking to my mom, but she wasn't in a position to make us talk. And my brother has no interest in getting involved between the two of us. He know who my mother is. He himself has gone significant amounts of time without speaking to her.


----------



## BlueWoman

And as for my X. Feeling better today. 

Just needed to remember that even if he came back, he simply doesn't have what it takes to be the kind of man I want. 

And the thing is, I know I could make him want to come back. It would take some work and patience...but I could convince him it was his idea to get back together.

What I can't do is make him be a responsible person. I can't make him deal with sexual issues. I can't make him put our relationship first. I can't make him step up and be a man. 

And I don't think I could ever trust him again. The things I would need him to do, like stop hanging out with women friends 1:1, is something that even if he agreed to it, he would resent it.

So I think I could get him back if I wanted what I had before...(actually worse, because now I know he's capable of cheating.) But why would I sign up for that?

I just wouldn't. I would rather be single. His negatives out weigh the positives. 
And the no sex and the not putting the relationship first are deal breakers. 

Well and the cheating...that's an obvious one. 
So I just needed to remind myself that I am better off.


----------



## BlueWoman

Thanks MarriedGuy.


----------



## FeministInPink

Blue, it's good to be able to remind yourself of those things when you start to feel nostalgic or sad about the end of your marriage... literally allow your rational mind to talk yourself out of the irrational emotions.


----------



## honcho

SamuraiJack said:


> It's okay Bluewoman,
> 
> If it helps any, I havent actually spoken to my mother since I got married. Thats 20 years ago.
> 
> As far as the rest...just let it all out and process as you go.
> 
> Im pretty certain nobody here will judge you for it.


20 years? I wish I was that lucky. My dear sweet mother makes my stbx look normal and I do wish I was kidding when I say that. 

Blue we all have bad days and wish we had what we used to have. These days do get less and less as time goes on and usually after the "bad" day you realize even more why the divorce is the best long term choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueWoman

Not a bad weekend. Went with friends to the Celtic Festival...which was freaking cold. Had my cards read. I don't really believe in that kind of thing...but it did ring true. Plus this lady looked like she should have second site. She was wrapped up in a purple shawl, missing teeth, and crossed eyes. 
She says I will get my Ph.D. and that I will find love. He's out there. Ha! We shall see. 

I joined a meetup group for people in there 40's and 50's. But I have to admit I am nervous about going to the events. I'm going to have to push myself, I think.


----------



## Chuck71

Just act like it's the first day of high school. Chances are.... most of the others will be nervous too.

"Hi.... my name is BW. Have you been to one of these meetups before?"

A-S/he hasn't and you have definitely found a friend.... humans resonate to 'like' people

(that is what I usually do)

B-You meet someone who has been to many and they usually explain the program and introduce you

to other members.


----------



## FeministInPink

I agree with Chuck... people in MeetUps are generally very welcome and friendly. Either there will be a lot of newbies that are also nervous, or there will be a lot of people who have been there a while and will take you under their wing.

Just go in with an open mind and the intent to have fun. And you will


----------



## BlueWoman

Well I went ahead and RSVP'd to the bbq on Sunday. And then wrote a little message to the group saying it would be my first time at a meetup and I was a bit nervous. And I got tons of positive responses. So I think that will help my social anxiety. (I don't really have social anxiety...in terms of it being a real issue. Just typical nervousness.) 

And I really need to do this...
Because tomorrow is the last day of the school year. And while I'll be working over the summer, it's 5 weeks, 3 days a week, 4 hours a day. Not really anything hard or time consuming. Which means I will have a lot of down time. 

And I could easily seek into a depression. I think it's going to be a challenge. This is the first summer I'm not looking forward to spending with my husband...because I don't have one. With all the things that were wrong in our relationship I really did enjoy spending time with him. He was my favorite person. So it's weird to be cleaning up my room, knowing that I will be alone this summer. 

Also June 17 is our anniversary. That is going to be a hard day. I should figure out a way to do something fun. 

When am I just not going to care?


----------



## Chuck71

BW..... I can currently relate to this all too well. The summer

has always been my "playtime" as in spending time with a special

female. I had '89-'90 with 1st love, '91-'96 with 2nd love, '98-'12 with XW

and '13-'14 with 4th love. XW and I met in late summer '97... that was

a weird summer for me. I thought it sucked... but looking back.... I hung out

with friends, dated some but nothing serious, and helped my best female friend

through a rough divorce. By the time I met my XW, I was more than ready for

something. It is always darkest before the dawn. I was very fearful of my XW and I's 

first anniversary apart, 5/29/13. I worried how I would react to it. It was just another day.

I was bothered, at best.... 5% of what I thought I would be. I even posted about it but it

is probably on Zillard's thread. I used to be a public school teacher.... can you further your

degree, as in masters or Ed.S? If you are near a large city... look into summer tutoring.

Most are volunteer based but your main concern is keeping yourself busy. Do you

enjoy writing? I am a part time author and it has released my soul in so many ways.


----------



## FeministInPink

BW, it may take some time. Maybe you can take advantage of some of this free time and start knocking some things off your bucket list. Or maybe some projects around the house, nesting (if you will) and making it more YOUR space, rather than the space you used to share with someone else. Seek out new activities or hobbies that bring you joy. Define YOU rather than finding your definition through companionship. Discover new places and meet new people. Dare yourself to do something that has always scared or intimidated you. Learn to love your single life, as it is. Create the life YOU want, and fill it with people and activities and hobbies that make you happy! Our time on Earth is limited, and that free time to do as you please is a blessing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round

I think that's great you joined the Meetup group . I can't remember if I've shared this, but when I got divorced I joined a Single Moms Meetup group and I like it very much. I've only ever done adult things with them so they refer to my children as "imaginary" or "stealth" since they often do things with the kids, too . But, my kids are older than their kids for the most part, and they are shy. I think I need to join a mixed gender group too. I hope the group ends up being great for you!


----------



## BlueWoman

So I tried to post twice before and lost the post twice because of house issues....

Sum up...already have my Master's. Already have things planned...Definitely will do organization.

So is it wrong for me to be upset and my brother's girlfriend for house sitting for my XH? 

Background. When we first split up, my X looked for an apartment in the same complex that my brother and his GF lived in. They were in the process of buying a house right next door to their old apartment and my X ended up moving in right next door to them. 

Anyway, he is going out of town and they are getting his key to take of his (my) cats. 

Also I suspect they have been hanging out. I don't know that for sure, but I've suspected it. 

I am also hurt that he called my guy best friend and they went to Mad Max last week. 

I can't if I have the right to expect people who are close to me, to not be friends with him...but it really hurts that they are hanging out.


----------



## Chuck71

Hopefully you will meet new people.... meet-ups, public interaction.

You can't control other people's actions. If you are not happy with their actions, dismiss them as friends.

My aunt still talks to my post-D ex g/f... long story but I disowned her.

No one can look out for you but..... YOU.

"I am not okay with hearing news concerning my XW"

Try that.... you feel the amount of pain you allow in.

Been there.... not fun..... this is YOUR life and no one else's.


----------



## BlueWoman

It just hurts, because it feels like he took so much from me...why does he have to take my friends and family as well. He has so many, why does he need mine.

Also, it feels like a betrayal...choosing to spend time with him is like condoning what he did. It makes me feel very unimportant. 

And of course this is really hard day. I never imagined this would be such a hard trigger. But I am a wreck now. 

I feel so alone, right now. I am supposed to go to happy hour this evening and I will...I will force myself out, but right now I am home and I can't seem to stop crying. 

And that's giving me a headache.


----------



## FeministInPink

If it's bothering you so much, you may want to talk with your brother. Because this may end up hurting your relationship with your brother. After what you've been through, you need the emotional security of knowing your brother has YOUR back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueWoman

Yeah, I actually called my brother and asked him if he was hanging out the X. He said no. I think I was particularly emotional and not all that rational. 

And after a good cry I feel better. Plus I did some hard core cleaning in my house. I really have to just be busy for the next few days until things settle down.


----------



## BlueWoman

So I am on day 2 of a killer migrain. This probably explains how emotional I was the other day. I was probably in the prodrome of the migraine. 

But the migraine itself is depressing me. I am not going to the BBQ and that sucks because I really think I needed that. 

And it makes my miss my X. This is what was nice about him...when I had migraines, I could just relax and not worry because he would take care of things. 

I have always wondered if part of what happened is that I started getting botox and didn't need him to take care of things any more. But I would sure like somebody to take care of things today.


----------



## BlueWoman

So I fell asleep on the couch and had the really intense dream about my X. It was really upsetting. And I woke up freaked out. 

You know those dreams where something really awful happens and your really upset and you wake up and you think "oh thank god it was just a dream." 

Yeah, my dream was like that....only, it isn't just a dream. It's real. I mean the events in my dream didn't happen, which saves me from some humiliation, but the loss is real. 

So combine that with this splitting headache...and I'm a mess. Fortunately, I have friend who is coming by this evening with food and support. I'm hoping this headache doesn't last until Tuesday....but if I does, I'll call my neurologist and get steroids.


----------



## FeministInPink

BW, I hope the headache goes away soon... those are the worst.

The dreams... those are normal. Like having your heart ripped out all over again, and they come out of nowhere, and because it's a dream, you have no control or way to protect yourself. And once you wake up, they stick with you... and you have to recover from it and try to move on with the day. They are awful. I think we've all had them.

The good news is that as you move forward, the dreams will become less frequent, and will eventually stop.

I hope you can have a good time with your friend


----------



## BlueWoman

So my living arrangement is kind unique. Two of my bestfriends (Married 10 years, together 20, actually met through me.) Own a large piece of property in the middle of the city. It's a little over an acre. The property is beautiful, tons of trees and greenery. But buildings are old and not updated, but it's a great place. 

Anyway, when I got divorced, they told me I could move into their casita. And it's been great. I have privacy, but I also have friends close by. The wife is a vet who at Animal Welfare and so she is helping me with the kittens.

They have three kids, and obviously I am pretty close with them. And with the kittens being here, the kids are in and out of my house all day. 

They were here earlier and wore out the kittnes, which I am thankful for. 

Anyway, I just watched the littlest one sneak a picture into my mailbox. She didn't know I could see her...it was so sweet. 

Small blessings.


----------



## BlueWoman

And thanks for your words of support. FiP. I really haven't had many dreams about my X. This was my first one that I can remember. It has left a horrible after taste. 

It makes me want to text him....which I'm not going to do. Because, I get that my feelings are rational. But I really wish I could shake the feeling.

More, I really wish I didn't miss him in general. I think that's what is so frustrating. I know we couldn't be happy. I mean, I actually know that he doesn't have it in him to make me happy. Even if he suddenly realized he was still in love with me, as much as I want to take him back, I couldn't. 

I couldn't because I would have new boundaries that he would never agree to. And I can't compromise on these boundaries. I just can't, and he just wouldn't be able to comply. He wouldn't even be able to say he would try. I know that. 

Our relationship is dead. I just wish my heart could accept that.


----------



## FeministInPink

It takes the heart some time to catch up with the rational mind; it may be a while until they are in sync. Once they are in sync, the dreams will stop.


----------



## BlueWoman

And guess who doesn´t feel like death warmed over today. And with the headache gone, and the need for drugs gone, I feel much more sane.


----------



## BlueWoman

What a crazy day.

First, I finally got my STD testing. Tested for all the major ones. I think I'm okay, but since X has lied about so many things, I can't guarantee it. 

Then I went to see Mad Max with a friend. That movie is great. Definitely want to see it again. 

Then yoga.

And finally came home, and one of the kittens was having seizures. Drove her to emergency vet and after they ruled out low blood sugar, they euthanized her. I was there with her, and held her, but I suspect she didn't really know, because so much brain damage had been done by the seizures. Still, I am glad I was able to do that. So there is definitely a lot of crying today for me. I need to go to bed now and sleep. 

Also this template is messing with me.


----------



## FeministInPink

BW, so sorry to hear about your kitty! Try to get some rest so you can clear your head.

I'm glad there were some other good things about your day.


----------



## BlueWoman

Me too. I feel a bit guilty, but I'm not really sad anymore. I guess because I didn't expect to keep her long term so I didn't fully bond. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore these kittens...but it's not the same as when you know you are going to keep them forever. 

And in other news...I never took down my ******* profile...and I found someone who I could be interested in. He's sort of like my wish list personified. We have chatted quite a bit and definitely have lots in common. We are making a plan to meet. 

It's nice to be excited about meeting a guy. I mean, the odds are that it won't work out and that's okay. But I haven't been excited about meeting a guy since my divorce. I kind of went through the motions, but wasn't really excited.


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Me too. I feel a bit guilty, but I'm not really sad anymore. I guess because I didn't expect to keep her long term so I didn't fully bond. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore these kittens...but it's not the same as when you know you are going to keep them forever.


There's nothing to feel guilty about. It was also a quality of life issue for her.

I also don't seem to bond with animals the way I see a lot of people do. Even after I had my cats for 10 years, I wasn't terribly attached to them.

So... maybe don't listen to me.



BlueWoman said:


> And in other news...I never took down my ******* profile...and I found someone who I could be interested in. He's sort of like my wish list personified. We have chatted quite a bit and definitely have lots in common. We are making a plan to meet.
> 
> It's nice to be excited about meeting a guy. I mean, the odds are that it won't work out and that's okay. But I haven't been excited about meeting a guy since my divorce. I kind of went through the motions, but wasn't really excited.


Oh, it's great to be excited about a guy again... enjoy it. It feels like you're finally ALIVE again, doesn't it?


----------



## BlueWoman

I don't feel guilty that I euthanized her. Just that I was over it in a day. But I guess I don't feel guilty about that either. But many of pet lover friends seem to think that I am much sadder that I actually am. 

Now when it's my own pet, I am very sad. I still miss and think about animals I lost 10 years ago. 

And yes, It feels good to be excited about a guy.


----------



## BlueWoman

Okay...bad news. Silly bad news. New guy has the same name as X. And is the astrological sign. If he has the same birthday, I'm calling it off. (Ok, I won't really.)


----------



## Chuck71

I have a half brother but I have never met him. From what I heard we look identical. I had just started

dating my XW.... she had a pic of me on her desk, female came in and quickly noted... that guy is my b/f.

You can imagine the dialogue. We had enough differences to where I did not see two very pizzed off

females come stomping in my place of work later that afternoon. I do not believe in signs.... 

there are only 12... easy to overlap. As for the name.... if it's John, Ted, Johnny... very common.

Now if they have the same birthday, birth year, hometown.... yeah, then kind of worry


----------



## BlueWoman

Yeah, it's a very common name. I was only teasing that I was going to call it off. I'm ambivalent about astrological signs. My mother is very into astrology and does charts and reads them, so I don't rule them out, but I haven't had enough evidence for me to give them so much credit. Still it would have been weird. That said, he doesn't have the same birthday, so all is well. We are meeting Saturday afternoon.


----------



## BlueWoman

And,perhaps, because I'm excited about a new guy, or because I upped my anti-depressants, I am feeling pretty good about my X. And by good, I mean, nothing. For today at least, I don't miss him. I'm not angry at him. I don't wish bad things on him, but I don't feel invested in him. 

I wish I could guarantee that I will continue to feel this way about him. I know that is not what will happen, but I can wish.


----------



## Chuck71

I want what you're taking :rofl:


----------



## BlueWoman

So first date went well. I can't say that I am instantly attracted to him, but for me that can grow. Also, I don't know what he thought of me physically either. But we never ran out of things to talk about in over 3 hours, so that's really good. We finally left because we were on the patio and the sun was right in my eyes. 

So I told him, that if he asked me out again, I would say yes. I suspect he will ask me out again, but I also made it clear that I didn't expect him to ask me out right then. So he has an out, if he's not into me.


----------



## BlueWoman

Chuck71 said:


> I want what you're taking :rofl:


Well I had a minute missing my X after the date. I was thinking about how much I enjoyed the conversation and remembered how much my X made me laugh. Right up until the end, I laughed almost everyday. And I thought "what if new guy can't make me laugh, or isn't funny." But then I realized that I don't need to worry about that right now.


----------



## BlueWoman

Date number 2 went really well. I like this guy. And he likes me and lets me know. And it feels so good to be called attractive and beautiful. Nothing is a better aprhodesiac for me than make me feel desirable. 

Ironically, I´m holding off on sex. I want sex...no question. But I´m not quite ready to invite him into my home. But a few more dates like this one, and I think I will be easily swayed. 

And in other news...I hear my ex is breaking up with his non girl friend who he cheated on me with. He´s apparantly a mess. It´s not quite revenge, but it does feel good.


----------



## WorkingWife

BlueWoman said:


> Here is why I like TAM. I had epiphany today: My marriage was nothing special. It really wasn't. He was cheater and I was a rug sweeper. His first EA was 2010. He told me about it, and I stupidly told him I never wanted to know about those things again. I stuck my head in the sand. And when he went to her birthday party, and I didn't stop him? WTF was the matter with me?! I acted like he was trust worthy and he acted like he wasn't. It was all there right in my face. And I ignored it. Because we weren't soul mates. We were just two stupid people who should have split long ago. And possibly never gotten married in the first place.
> 
> I've been holding on to this idea that our love was some great love, because he loved me for a decade before we actually got together. But did he really love me? No he didn't. He was infatuated with something shiny. And once he had me, I wasn't so shiny. Now he's following PoT (piece of trash) around, while she keeps telling him she loves him but is not in love with him. And you know what? Let him. He's not my problem.
> 
> I can't believe I feel this way today, because yesterday I was crying.
> 
> But today...I feel okay. I haven't felt this neutral is ages.
> 
> Anyone else feel like they've developed manic depressiveness after a divorce? 'Cause I swear I feel crazy.


OMG I could fill pages with the rug sweeping I did in my first marriage. Good for you for seeing that in yourself and acknowledging it. It's so much easier to just be the victim.

Regarding crying yesterday and having more perspective today - it will probably come and go but get better and better overall. But have you talked to your Dr. about hormones and possibly anti-depressants?

I am going through menopause so hormones are on my mind and I recently saw a hormone specialist. just one day hormone replacement and I slept better than I have in 20 years. She also prescribed an antidepressant. 

I did not know this but she explained that seratonin IS a hormone and Women typically start with half as much of it as men. Stress screws with all these hormones. I don't remember the exact details but what she explained made total sense. 

I saw her because of menopause but left realizing I've been "sucking it up" for 20 years when I really was not okay and probably could have done something about it and been so much stronger and calmer and changed the trajectory of my whole life.

I don't mean to project my situation onto you but if you are feeling blue or anxious and it persists, I would encourage you to see someone who specializes in that stuff.

Hang in there I think some day you will be so happy and relieved to be rid of him.

PS if you WANT to get your sex & romance drive back, I can recommend some fiction to read. :wink2:


----------



## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Date number 2 went really well. I like this guy. And he likes me and lets me know. And it feels so good to be called attractive and beautiful. Nothing is a better aprhodesiac for me than make me feel desirable.
> 
> Ironically, I´m holding off on sex. I want sex...no question. But I´m not quite ready to invite him into my home. But a few more dates like this one, and I think I will be easily swayed.
> 
> And in other news...I hear my ex is breaking up with his non girl friend who he cheated on me with. He´s apparantly a mess. It´s not quite revenge, but it does feel good.


Holding off on the sex isn't a bad thing. It sounds pretty healthy, actually. You're better than I... if I really like a guy, I jump in way too fast, and usually end up getting hurt. So good on you. Have fun, and keep your perspective.

It's delightful when the ex's new thing goes to sh!t, isn't it? It's OK to feel a little giddy about that 

The best revenge, they say, is living well. His stuff going to sh!t is the cherry on top.


----------



## Chuck71

********And in other news...I hear my ex is breaking up with his non girl friend who he cheated on me with. He´s apparantly a mess. It´s not quite revenge, but it does feel good.***********

Parasites tend to jump from host to host


----------



## FeministInPink

Chuck71 said:


> ********And in other news...I hear my ex is breaking up with his non girl friend who he cheated on me with. He´s apparantly a mess. It´s not quite revenge, but it does feel good.***********
> 
> Parasites tend to jump from host to host


Ha ha ha!!! 

Was that not supposed to be funny? Because I found it hilarious!


----------



## BlueWoman

So my ex is on ******* and looked at my profile. I pay the fee to do invisible browsing....so I looked at his. And then I hid him. I don't really care. 

So in my Late Teens and Early 20's, I was committmentphobic. I knew I was at the time. If a guy liked me, I would have mini panic attacks. I'd be really into them...and then just panic. When we broke up, I would feel such a strong sense of relief. I knew my ex back then, and he was very interested in me...and I did not reciprocate.

In my late 20's I went to counseling to address this issue. And i thought it worked. But looking back at my choices, I realize, I just changed how it presented. 
I was engaged to a guy, and actually had a divorce plan. In the end, I started a fight that made him break up with me. 

I had a year of depression. 
After that, my Ex came back into my life. And the rest is history.

But I am starting to have those familiar panicked feelings re: new guy. I thought I was over it, but I'm not. And I know it's crazy, because he quite simply isn't putting any pressure on me. It's all me. 

So I'm reading "He's Scared, She's Scared." And wow...it totally describes me. But as I am reading it, I realize that it also describes my ex. He spent 10 years chasing me, and I am completely emotionally unavailable. And through our marriage he consistently showed that he always had a escape plan. And now he's "in love" with another woman who is emotionally unavailable. 

Why is it important to recognize that my ex is a committmentphobe? Because the pattern of the committmentphobe is to look for others terrified by committment. 

I tried to set an appointment with my counselor, but she doesn't have opening in august, and I don't want to start counseling then. So I'm going to keep reading the book. 

Because new guy is really nice.


----------



## BlueWoman

WorkingWife said:


> Regarding crying yesterday and having more perspective today - it will probably come and go but get better and better overall. But have you talked to your Dr. about hormones and possibly anti-depressants?
> 
> I am going through menopause so hormones are on my mind and I recently saw a hormone specialist. just one day hormone replacement and I slept better than I have in 20 years. She also prescribed an antidepressant.
> 
> I did not know this but she explained that seratonin IS a hormone and Women typically start with half as much of it as men. Stress screws with all these hormones. I don't remember the exact details but what she explained made total sense.


Good advice, I've actually upped my anti-depressants, and it's made a huge difference. 

Already on hormones for the treatment of PCOS. 

I really feel like this year is going to be transformative for me.


----------



## BlueWoman

*Update and ramblings*



BlueWoman said:


> I really feel like this year is going to be transformative for me.


And it has. 

Today, I submitted my application for the Ph.D. program. I managed to get the chair of the department to write a letter of recommendation for me, so I think I have a good shot.

I also submitted a proposal to present my paper that I wrote in the fall. This is a small conference, but I plan to do a similar presentation at a national conference in November. 

This is big stuff for me and something that I have wanted to do for years. And I'm finally doing it. 

Dated that guy for while but broke it off at the end of the summer. 

He wanted something different than I wanted. He's engaged to the girl he was dating before me. 

I look at OLD occasionally, but haven't gone on any dates or even seriously talked to anyone. 

I don't think the guy for me is going to be found in online dating. 

I've been doing a lot of thinking about what I want and the big thing I realize I need is a man who has his own boundaries. 

In the end, I look at all past relationships and realize that poor boundaries are the problem. 

I am attracted to men with boundaries. But they don't tend to be attracted to me. And I think in part, because I'm not very good at them. I haven't really known how to respectfully enforce my own boundaries.  

It was in fact an issue with the guy over the summer. He pushed at my boundaries and I hated having to enforce them because then I felt like a *****. But what ended up happening is that I vacillated between resenting him because my boundaries weren't being respected and feeling guilty because he wanted more and I didn't want to give it to him. 

It was a problem in my marriage as well. I was an enabler. I took care of everything. I was the grown up and he was the child. That's where I felt my value came from. And maybe if there hadn't been outside circumstances we might not have crashed and burned. But when I couldn't do everything he couldn't step up and fill in. He resented me for not wanted to take care of him, and I resented him for not being able to take care of me. 

And let's be clear...it was that way before we got married. He certainly changed, no question, and I take no responsibility for his cheating (although I see how it happened.) But neither of us had appropriate boundaries. The things I did for him...like fill out his applications for school, shouldn't have happened. And I know that if I had had that boundary, I wouldn't have married him. 

I can tell you that it stems from my childhood. I lived in a world with where I wasn't allowed to have boundaries and/or they were violated constantly. Other boundaries were enforced with violence and screaming. 

But at 43 I don't want my childhood controlling the rest of my life. I am thinking about going to counseling in the summer. I work for the schools and I have that time off. I feel like I will have energy and time then. But in the mean time, I am doing some work on my own. I've started writing a list of important boundaries to me. And then I've started writing what I need to do to enforce the boundaries. 

I want to be better at it...I want to be better at enforcing my own boundaries and respecting others boundaries. It's a process. 

And in terms of my grief...well it seems to come and go. I still have days where I am just so sad and angry. But lately, I've felt indifferent about my ex. I will wonder what's going on with him...is he still with the OW? And then I think, who cares. It has nothing to do with me. What if he's happy? Who cares? I've lost a lot in this divorce, but I am gaining a lot. 

Oh and something that I have gained...so I've always had a challenging relationship with my mother (see above about my childhood and boundaries). And I have finally gotten pretty good at enforcing my boundaries with her. (Which sadly means being willing to cut her out of my life if she takes things to far.) But I have to say she has been an amazing support through this. And I certainly understand her a lot more. So I have a relationship with her. I can take her as she is. She's not predictable at all, but I know how to deal with her when she gets nasty. We still squabble, we always will. But I like not being at war with her. 

So yeah, that's where I am. Happy with my life right now. Still on a path of self improvement.


----------



## Chuck71

Keep in mind..... in any relationship.... the other HAS to at least, test your boundaries. It's human nature....

just like children constantly push those with their parents.

Healthy people will test them.... hoping you will respond with a healthy action.... aka positive reinforcement


----------



## BlueWoman

Yes, that's what I'm grappling with. First, what are my boundaries. That's pretty challenging as well. I have them, but have spent a lot of time telling myself they weren't reasonable boundaries. That there is something wrong with me for having these boundaries. 

So I am trying to change my mindset about them. Boundaries are boundaries, a person can think they are reasonable or unreasonable, but if something makes me uncomfortable then it's a reasonable boundary for me. 

Then next step is trying to figure out what is a reasonable response to someone crossing the boundary. Of course the first step is naming the boundary and letting someone know when they've crossed a boundary. 

This is challenging for me, because I find I have delayed emotions. Something might happen, and I won't become upset until after the fact. Not really sure how to work on that one. But there are other boundaries that I can start to recognize and should respond to immediately. 

This is kind of an example of me need to learn to enforce my boundaries. I don't feel comfortable with someone spending the night with me. When I was dating the guy from this summer I told him I didn't want him to spend the night. But he would typically fall asleep and I would lay there frustrated because 1) I couldn't sleep, and 2) I had said that I didn't want him to spend the night, so why was he still there? But really I realize that it was on me to enforce it. I felt like I was being unreasonable about it, but the reality is I was resentful and cranky because I was sleep deprived. But I should have woken him up and sent him on his way, while I was still happy with him. 

Is it an unreasonable request to have your lover leave in the middle of the night? I don't know. But it's what I want and I want it enough that there are negative effects if it doesn't happen. I can enforce that. 

To change the topic...or maybe I'm not maybe it's a boundary issue, I don't know.

My best friend told me she is coming to visit my city this summer and I'm not happy about it.

Back story: My ex and I were part of the same circle of friends for at least a decade before we started dating. This included my BFF. We also had two friends who I will call M&M. My ex and I spent a lot of time with M&M and were pretty close. But I always knew they would choose my ex if there was a split. And that's what they did. And even knowing it would happen, didn't actually change how much it hurt me. Suddenly events that all our mutual friends were invited to, I would be excluded from. I wouldn't even be invited. It still stings. 

So having my BFF here means there will be activities that I won't be included in. 
But it's worse than that. I work in the schools, which means I have a lot of off time. What I don't have are vacation days to use during the school year. (Of course everyone else does.) My BFF is planning her trip to coincide quite nicely with when I have to go to work. Which means that not only will I not be invited, even if I were invited I wouldn't be able to participate. 

This exact scenario happened last summer, and I was devastated by it. I did talk to my friend and she felt horrible, but I know her. She won't have remembered how much that hurt. 
And of course she's already scheduled the trip and it's apparent that she didn't remember how much it hurt that her timing alone excluded me. 

I want desperately to not feel that hurt. Normally, if someone consistently hurts me like this, I avoid them and the situation. It's kind of like the "what I don't know won't hurt me." But there are some pretty significant consequences to doing that. I would in essence be ending my friendship with her. I wrote a letter to her, which i didn't send. It was mostly to just get the feelings out. I may send it to her. But I'm still processing this. 

And of course it's one of those things where I am embarrassed I feel this way. I wish none of it would matter to me. But honestly making none of matter means making the people involved not matter. Which sort of puts me in the place if why be friends with someone who I don't feel like I can be close enough to to be emotionally vulnerable. 

Sadly, this isn't the only place in my life where this issue has come up. My ex moved in next door to my brother and his girl friend. As a result A (my brother's gf) has maintained a relationship with my ex. She spends more time talking to him than to me. In fact she used to have him pet sit for her. So they would be out of town and he would know and I would have no idea. When I found out, I actually told her how hurt I was by that. I don't know what she's done about that. I do know they still hang out. Not because I want to know, but because it comes out accidentally in conversations, and then there's this awkward pause. So I've started avoiding her. Which makes keeping a relationship with my brother difficult. He's not going to confront her about this and I don't think she much cares how much it hurts. Or maybe she doesn't understand. 

My brother isn't someone that knows how to keep relationships going. His social life consists of her friends. He doesn't reach out to anybody. Including me. So she and I being at odds makes my relationship with my brother difficult.

That's my struggle for the day. 

And isn't it funny, I don't care one iota about my ex. But I really do care about the destruction of my life he's left in his wake.


----------



## FeministInPink

Your BFF doesn't sound like much of a BFF to me 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## BlueWoman

In many ways, I'm not sure she is. But not because she doesn't want to be. She is often of full of speed and frenetic energy. I will probably send her my letter next weekend and see what she will do. 
Usually once she knows how I feel she tries her best to make it better. It just doesn't occur to her that I would have been hurt or dreading this visit.

This is the letter I wrote today: 
Yesterday you told me you were coming to Albuquerque. Instead of being happy, I was filled with dread and frustration. 
To me a visit in this city is full of emotional land mines for me, and I would give anything not to have to go through it. 
And I'm already trying to figure out ways to protect myself from the emotional bombs that are bound to be unintentionally sent my way. 
Okay so first, I know that you come when you can…but I have to admit it's amazingly frustrating to me that despite the months off throughout the year I have, your visits are timed when I least can take the time off from work. Because I have those times off during the years, I don't have the ability to just take a vacation day like our other friends. I'm not given those days because I expected to do my vacationing on my actual vacation days. 
Of course, this year might not be so bad, because I will only be working part time and my UNM classes won't have started yet. 
And that's ignoring all of the other emotional pit falls.
So, I always knew that if JM and I split Matt and Melissa would be his friends. But knowing that doesn't mean it hurt less when it actually happened. And two years later it still hurts. 
I know Melissa believes that she reached out to me…but she also excluded me and even knowing that I wouldn't have done things like go to Tucson with them, it still hurt to know everyone was invited but me. It was a reminder that I was no longer part of that group. And they were people who had at one time been important to me. 
It was unavoidable but also hurtful. Even before the Facebook saga, I had to unfollow Melissa because she likes to document her life on Facebook. Her life include John from the get go and did not include me. 
When you were in Albuquerque last summer it was like the trip to Tucson all over again. I have lost friends, and not because I did anything to deserve it. Instead because people chose my ex over me. 
I am already trying to think of ways to protect myself from that hurt. 
I am still amazingly hurt over the fact that JM knows more about my brother and SIL than I do, because he lives next door and Asra still maintains a relationship with him. I have told her how I feel. And her way of dealing with it, is just to not talk about it. Which would be fine, except that she slips up and in conversation something will slip out that leaves me no doubt. 
And what can I do? I've made my feelings known. And I feel that I am losing my brother over this, because I can't bring myself to make an attempt of a relationship with them and he won't on his own. 
I do my best not thinking about it. But I will admit it will be harder to not think about it when you guys are here doing things with people that once meant a great deal to me, but no longer include me in their lives.
It doesn't make Matt and Melissa bad people that they chose John over me. But just because they weren't wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. 

I guess that's all I can say. I am scared that you coming to visit is going to open up wounds for me. I mostly ignore the pain of what I lost, but I am afraid it will hurt too much for me to ignore. And I don't know how to protect myself from that. 

Yesterday you told me you were coming to Albuquerque. Instead of being happy, I was filled with dread and frustration. 
To me a visit in this city is full of emotional land mines for me, and I would give anything not to have to go through it. 
I'm already trying to figure out ways to protect myself from the emotional bombs that are bound to be unintentionally sent my way. 
Okay so first, I know that you come when you can…but I have to admit it's amazingly frustrating to me that despite the months off throughout the year I have, your visits are timed when I least can take the time off from work. Because I have those times off during the years, I don't have the ability to just take a vacation day like our other friends. I'm not given those days because I am expected to do my vacationing on my actual vacation days. 
Of course, this year might not be so bad, because I will only be working part time and my classes won't have started yet. 
And that's ignoring all of the other emotional pit falls.
So, I always knew that if XH and I split, M&M would be his friends. But knowing that doesn't mean it hurt less when it actually happened. And two years later it, still hurts. 
I know M believes that she reached out to me…but she also excluded me and even knowing that I wouldn't have done things like go to Tucson with them, it still hurt to know everyone was invited but me. It was a reminder that I was no longer part of that group. And they were people who had at one time been important to me. 
It was unavoidable but also hurtful. Even before the Facebook saga, I had to unfollow M because she likes to document her life on Facebook. Her life included John from the get go and did not include me and it was painful to see.
When you were in Albuquerque last summer it was like the trip to Tucson all over again. I have lost friends, and not because I did anything to deserve it. Instead because people chose my ex over me. 
I am already trying to think of ways to protect myself from that hurt. 
I am still amazingly hurt over the fact that XH knows more about my brother and SIL than I do, because he lives next door and BGF still maintains a relationship with him. I have told her how I feel. And her way of dealing with it, is just to not talk about it. Which would be fine, except that she slips up and in conversation something will slip out that leaves me no doubt. 
And what can I do? I've made my feelings known. I feel that I am losing my brother over this, because I can't bring myself to make an attempt of a relationship with them and he won't on his own. 
I do my best not thinking about it, but I will admit it will be harder to not think about it when you guys are here doing things with people that once meant a great deal to me, but no longer include me in their lives.
It doesn't make M&M bad people that they chose XH over me, But just because they weren't wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. 

I guess that's all I can say. I am scared that you coming to visit is going to open up wounds for me. I mostly ignore the pain of what I lost, but I am afraid it will hurt too much for me to ignore, I don't know how to protect myself from that.


----------



## Chuck71

I would think they would invite you.... knowing you would be unable to go. That way they can prance around

saying they asked you but you refused. Does your brother have trouble maintaining a LTR?

You would think his g/f would have at least common curtsey for you. How has your relationship been with your 

brother since childhood?

If it makes you feel better....... My mom has one remaining sibling alive, my ex aunt (sums that up huh). A Co-D, drama queen bitter 4'9 troll. When mom had a heart attack last year..... you wouldn't believe the crap she pulled (I posted it here).

Mom is not clear headed anymore after two mini strokes and somehow ex aunt learned I referred to her as that.... blew my VM up with calls screaming -I'm your f'ing aunt, not ex aunt- by the way, she is 65.

Mom's three older siblings are dead. Their kids are so much older than me.... I never really knew any. They are quite closer in age to.... ex aunt. BTW.... she likes to talk. See where that leads.....

Anyshow... I do hope they can separate fact from BS. If they can't.... F' em. None have approached me on what's been said. They either think she is BSC or they believe it. They can come to me anytime for verification. None have..... word is I'm too much like pop. I don't start schit and I don't take it either. Fact is... if you traced the root of ex aunt's disdain for me..... it comes from how she felt against pop. I am paying for reasons she hated him.... 
I refuse to and she doesn't like that.


----------



## Chuck71

BlueWoman said:


> In many ways, I'm not sure she is. But not because she doesn't want to be. She is often of full of speed and frenetic energy. I will probably send her my letter next weekend and see what she will do.
> Usually once she knows how I feel she tries her best to make it better. It just doesn't occur to her that I would have been hurt or dreading this visit.
> 
> This is the letter I wrote today:
> Yesterday you told me you were coming to Albuquerque. Instead of being happy, I was filled with dread and frustration.
> To me a visit in this city is full of emotional land mines for me, and I would give anything not to have to go through it.
> And I'm already trying to figure out ways to protect myself from the emotional bombs that are bound to be unintentionally sent my way.
> Okay so first, I know that you come when you can…but I have to admit it's amazingly frustrating to me that despite the months off throughout the year I have, your visits are timed when I least can take the time off from work. Because I have those times off during the years, I don't have the ability to just take a vacation day like our other friends. I'm not given those days because I expected to do my vacationing on my actual vacation days.
> Of course, this year might not be so bad, because I will only be working part time and my UNM classes won't have started yet.
> And that's ignoring all of the other emotional pit falls.
> So, I always knew that if JM and I split Matt and Melissa would be his friends. But knowing that doesn't mean it hurt less when it actually happened. And two years later it still hurts.
> I know Melissa believes that she reached out to me…but she also excluded me and even knowing that I wouldn't have done things like go to Tucson with them, it still hurt to know everyone was invited but me. It was a reminder that I was no longer part of that group. And they were people who had at one time been important to me.
> It was unavoidable but also hurtful. Even before the Facebook saga, I had to unfollow Melissa because she likes to document her life on Facebook. Her life include John from the get go and did not include me.
> When you were in Albuquerque last summer it was like the trip to Tucson all over again. I have lost friends, and not because I did anything to deserve it. Instead because people chose my ex over me.
> I am already trying to think of ways to protect myself from that hurt.
> I am still amazingly hurt over the fact that JM knows more about my brother and SIL than I do, because he lives next door and Asra still maintains a relationship with him. I have told her how I feel. And her way of dealing with it, is just to not talk about it. Which would be fine, except that she slips up and in conversation something will slip out that leaves me no doubt.
> And what can I do? I've made my feelings known. And I feel that I am losing my brother over this, because I can't bring myself to make an attempt of a relationship with them and he won't on his own.
> I do my best not thinking about it. But I will admit it will be harder to not think about it when you guys are here doing things with people that once meant a great deal to me, but no longer include me in their lives.
> It doesn't make Matt and Melissa bad people that they chose John over me. But just because they weren't wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
> 
> I guess that's all I can say. I am scared that you coming to visit is going to open up wounds for me. I mostly ignore the pain of what I lost, but I am afraid it will hurt too much for me to ignore. And I don't know how to protect myself from that.
> 
> Yesterday you told me you were coming to Albuquerque. Instead of being happy, I was filled with dread and frustration.
> To me a visit in this city is full of emotional land mines for me, and I would give anything not to have to go through it.
> I'm already trying to figure out ways to protect myself from the emotional bombs that are bound to be unintentionally sent my way.
> Okay so first, I know that you come when you can…but I have to admit it's amazingly frustrating to me that despite the months off throughout the year I have, your visits are timed when I least can take the time off from work. Because I have those times off during the years, I don't have the ability to just take a vacation day like our other friends. I'm not given those days because I am expected to do my vacationing on my actual vacation days.
> Of course, this year might not be so bad, because I will only be working part time and my classes won't have started yet.
> And that's ignoring all of the other emotional pit falls.
> So, I always knew that if XH and I split, M&M would be his friends. But knowing that doesn't mean it hurt less when it actually happened. And two years later it, still hurts.
> I know M believes that she reached out to me…but she also excluded me and even knowing that I wouldn't have done things like go to Tucson with them, it still hurt to know everyone was invited but me. It was a reminder that I was no longer part of that group. And they were people who had at one time been important to me.
> It was unavoidable but also hurtful. Even before the Facebook saga, I had to unfollow M because she likes to document her life on Facebook. Her life included John from the get go and did not include me and it was painful to see.
> When you were in Albuquerque last summer it was like the trip to Tucson all over again. I have lost friends, and not because I did anything to deserve it. Instead because people chose my ex over me.
> I am already trying to think of ways to protect myself from that hurt.
> I am still amazingly hurt over the fact that XH knows more about my brother and SIL than I do, because he lives next door and BGF still maintains a relationship with him. I have told her how I feel. And her way of dealing with it, is just to not talk about it. Which would be fine, except that she slips up and in conversation something will slip out that leaves me no doubt.
> And what can I do? I've made my feelings known. I feel that I am losing my brother over this, because I can't bring myself to make an attempt of a relationship with them and he won't on his own.
> I do my best not thinking about it, but I will admit it will be harder to not think about it when you guys are here doing things with people that once meant a great deal to me, but no longer include me in their lives.
> It doesn't make M&M bad people that they chose XH over me, But just because they weren't wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
> 
> I guess that's all I can say. I am scared that you coming to visit is going to open up wounds for me. I mostly ignore the pain of what I lost, but I am afraid it will hurt too much for me to ignore, I don't know how to protect myself from that.


1-She ain't no BFF. If one of my "Hangover Crew" did something like that to me... banishment. But we guys are wired different.

2-MnM are friends with XH. That is their choice. If being around them is uncomfortable... tell them you do not wish to be around them. That it will hopefully be temporary... until you can adjust. When that day will come.... you are unsure of at the present.

I'm sorry but a BFF should know how you feel. A letter really should not have to be written. Again.... maybe it's different with women.

Your life is about YOU...... NOT them.


----------



## BlueWoman

Well I haven't had contact with M&M since D day. They made their choice and I made mine. 

As for my brother...He is in a LTR, but it's mostly because she does the work at it. Obviously my brother and I had very dysfunctional childhoods. My brother coped with it by suppressing his emotions. And I do mean suppress. He doesn't feel grief or depression or excitement (unless he's drunk.) He's been with his GF for close to 15 years. He left her once about 6 years ago. She just didn't let him go, and that was that. I don't think he's ever going to leave her again. 

The way that I engage my brother is have him do manual labor for me. It sounds crazy, but honestly it's the one thing I know he'll show up for. And he will show up, no questions asked. Next week he's coming over to move a washing machine for me. 

I'll be honest, I could totally do the moving. It would be a pain, but it's feasible. But I missed my brother and it's a good excuse to spend some alone time with him. (Also, it will be really easy for him to do. He's a brawny guy.) If he ever took the love language test I am almost certain that his language would be acts of service. 

To be fair, my bff did not actually do anything to me. I just don't think she understand how I feel, because it's not how she sees the world. There are certain people in this world who really don't understand what it feels like to have your world ripped out from under them. My BFF grew up a stable two parent home, with parents who actually loved each other. Her father has passed away, but he loved his wife until his dying breath. They had 6 children, all of who are married and not a single divorce among them. I don't think she's ever seen a marriage fall apart. And to be honest, I don't think even I knew how hard it would be. How painful it would be. 

Maybe you are right, maybe it's crazy that she doesn't get it. Maybe I shouldn't have to write a letter. But I've lost a lot in the last 5 years or so, and I'm not sure I want to lose this friendship without at least explaining how I feel.


----------



## BlueWoman

After sleeping on it. I decided that I can let this work itself out. I might get hurt in the process, but I will get a lot less hurt if I have no expectations about it. 

Instead of trying to manage people, I am going to take care of myself. I am gong to put my needs and wants first this summer. 

It's all about those boundaries. 

I think in the end it will work itself out.


----------



## WreckTangle

BlueWoman said:


> Really just a vent:
> 
> I know I am better off without my ex. My life is better.
> 
> But it's still incredibly painful.
> 
> And of course my life is better, because it's better to live alone than live with someone who doesn't love you.
> 
> But once upon a time, he did love me. And life was good. Not perfect, but good. We were a team. (I thought.) And then he stopped loving me. And he became a very selfish person.
> 
> And I know people can't help what they feel. But somehow knowing it doesn't actually make it feel any better.
> 
> I don't miss him. I miss who he was. And I really wish I could stop feeling sad.


Wow. This sums me up right now so well.

I am better of without her (though it is very hard to convince myself of that sometimes).

It is still VERY painful. It is like withdrawing from a drug (not that I have any experience with that...but she is still in my veins and I feel like I still "need" her to the point where it is physically, mentally, and emotionally painful).

I would agree. It is probably better off living alone than with someone who has fallen out of love with you and takes out their anger and resentment on you on a daily basis. That said, it is tough because (to borrow a line from a song): "It takes two when it used to take one" meaning I used to feel so much more independent, but once you have had a taste of sharing life with someone...it is hard to shake the belief that it truly takes two.

She did love me. Once upon a time. We were very good. We were best friends and everything else. The good memories run so thick and deep, but somewhere along the way she stopped loving me. I don't know why. I wish I did. I know what she says, but it doesn't hold up...and yes...she became (and still is) a very selfish person.

It doesn't make me feel much better.

I'm torn: do I miss her, or do I miss what we were? I think sometimes that I'm chasing an illusion. An illusion of a life together that was gone long before she pulled the plug, but even knowing that doesn't make it better.

I'm still just sad a lot and I want it to be done.


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## Chuck71

WT.... you miss what the two of you had / made / shared together. You also miss who she "was"

If you met her today.... would you date her?

My relatives from the two generations before me were.... once M, always M... fight it out.

If someone is unhappy..... they should tell their spouse. Holding this in to keep from rocking the boat.....

WILL sink the boat. 

As I told my XW after DDay, "why didn't you say anything about this until now" her reply...

"You should have just known (aka you should have read my mind because.... I can read yours LOL) 

IOW..... she was unhappy, regretted not saying anything, didn't know what to do about it, and had two 

choices..... fight or flight. She chose flight.

XW made several serious attempts at a possible R in the next two years. I was not interested.... 

when times get tough.... I wanted her to have my back........ NOT stab me in the back


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## BlueWoman

@WreckTangle, have hope. When I wrote that it was very true. But I am 18 months past the divorce and 12 months past finding out that the real reason he left me was because he "fell in love" with someone else. 

I remember those days very clearly. I remember the despair. 

But what I feel now is so amazingly different. I am alone, but I'm no longer lonely. I spend my time doing what I want to do. I am living the life that I wanted to live, but couldn't because getting him on board was too much work. 

It's no longer work because I don't have to talk anyone into it. I feel like I am filling out my skin. I am becoming me. I am celebrating my own values. I like myself better without him. 

I am a better person without him. 

I'm not saying I don't get sad. I do. I probably still have a few moments each day where I feel sad. But it doesn't last long, and mostly I'm happy. And I'm excited to see what each day holds.

Of course, I am also in a place where I don't have an interest in finding new love. I am still trying to figure out how I can keep myself and still include another person, but I know I have no interest in losing me again. 

And yeah, the bond you felt for your XW is a drug. Dopamine, the bonding hormone...suddenly you are no longer getting it and it is painful. But you will make it. And when you break it, you will feel free. And you will be able to be more rational when choosing a new mate (if you choose.) And you will be happy.


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## WreckTangle

BlueWoman said:


> @WreckTangle, have hope. When I wrote that it was very true. But I am 18 months past the divorce and 12 months past finding out that the real reason he left me was because he "fell in love" with someone else.
> 
> I remember those days very clearly. I remember the despair.
> 
> But what I feel now is so amazingly different. I am alone, but I'm no longer lonely. I spend my time doing what I want to do. I am living the life that I wanted to live, but couldn't because getting him on board was too much work.
> 
> It's no longer work because I don't have to talk anyone into it. I feel like I am filling out my skin. I am becoming me. I am celebrating my own values. I like myself better without him.
> 
> I am a better person without him.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't get sad. I do. I probably still have a few moments each day where I feel sad. But it doesn't last long, and mostly I'm happy. And I'm excited to see what each day holds.
> 
> Of course, I am also in a place where I don't have an interest in finding new love. I am still trying to figure out how I can keep myself and still include another person, but I know I have no interest in losing me again.
> 
> And yeah, the bond you felt for your XW is a drug. Dopamine, the bonding hormone...suddenly you are no longer getting it and it is painful. But you will make it. And when you break it, you will feel free. And you will be able to be more rational when choosing a new mate (if you choose.) And you will be happy.


Thanks! You wrote a lot of good things. It really does help to talk to people who have been through the fire and come out on the other side. I just know I need to actually go through the process: I have to feel the pain. I have to heal. I have to find who I am and become comfortable with me. I do want to be with someone again, but I want it to be under the right circumstances. I want to know that my head is on straight.

Will I always miss her? I bet I probably will - at least on some level. I'll miss what we had, but my life cannot end simply because she left. Life is too short and there are still too many good things down the road.


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## WreckTangle

Chuck71 said:


> WT.... you miss what the two of you had / made / shared together. You also miss who she "was"
> 
> If you met her today.... would you date her?
> 
> My relatives from the two generations before me were.... once M, always M... fight it out.
> 
> If someone is unhappy..... they should tell their spouse. Holding this in to keep from rocking the boat.....
> 
> WILL sink the boat.
> 
> As I told my XW after DDay, "why didn't you say anything about this until now" her reply...
> 
> "You should have just known (aka you should have read my mind because.... I can read yours LOL)
> 
> IOW..... she was unhappy, regretted not saying anything, didn't know what to do about it, and had two
> 
> choices..... fight or flight. She chose flight.
> 
> XW made several serious attempts at a possible R in the next two years. I was not interested....
> 
> when times get tough.... I wanted her to have my back........ NOT stab me in the back


If I met her today as the person she is right now, no, I probably would not date her. She has changed too much from the person I first met. She went from being warm and open and funny to being cold and selfish and seemingly not able to even laugh. She seems old beyond her years.

I think she became unhappy and I think she thought she was speaking in a way that I could hear, but I just didn't hear it with the urgency she needed me to feel. I should have done more to get us out of our rut, but I thought we had a bond that was so strong that we would endure anything.


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## Chuck71

Up there with alienation of affection, physical / mental abuse, and infidelity is...... complacency. ALL lethal....


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## BlueWoman

On the other hand. I have always been a curvy girl. But when my X and I got together, I packed on the weight. Part of ws that my X brought food into the house that I craved but shouldn't eat. Part of it was he took over the cooking and the food he made was not a match for metabolism. And part of it is that I binge ate to suppress my feelings. Towards the. End of the marriage, I was seriously considering weight loss surgery. I didn't do it, but for that first year during my grief I focused my energy on my health. Changed my eating habits, changed what came into my home, and exercised. I lost 40 pounds. I've slowed down in my intensity of exercise and my weight loss has slowed down as well. But it hasn't stopped. I continue to make healthy choices for me. And for the new year I gave up meat. Today, I went clothes shopping, and for the first time in over a decade I shopped on the side with regular sized clothes. 

Before my X and I split, I was in counseling. I didn't know that my X was cheating, but I knew he had changed towards me in a way I found unacceptable. I was beginning to consider divorce. My counselor actually made a comment that sometimes just removing what has been causing you emotional pain can result in your body normalizing. 

Today I bought cute clothes because my X was no longer around to sabotage my health. I can't help but be thankful he's no longer around.

Also, I thought I might love him forever. But you know what, I don't. I don't even hate him. I can't really name the feeling, it's not quite apathy, because I think there are still things he could do that would affect me, but it's close mixed with a little pity.


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## Chuck71

Do you think he wanted you to gain weight? If so... was there a reason why


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## BlueWoman

Maybe, and to be honest, I know at the beginning I was scared to lose weight. Because I was HD and he was LD. I had a fear that if someone gave me that sexual charge, I would be tempted to cheat. Keeping my weight on was like a barrier to that. I think for him, me being heavy increased the likelihood that I wouldn't leave him. 

Now I realize that I wasn't going to cheat, because I had strong boundaries with other men, and didn't allow them that kind of access. Really, we shouldn't have gotten married.


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## FeministInPink

BlueWoman said:


> Maybe, and to be honest, I know at the beginning I was scared to lose weight. Because I was HD and he was LD. I had a fear that if someone gave me that sexual charge, I would be tempted to cheat. Keeping my weight on was like a barrier to that. I think for him, me being heavy increased the likelihood that I wouldn't leave him.
> 
> Now I realize that I wasn't going to cheat, because I had strong boundaries with other men, and didn't allow them that kind of access. Really, we shouldn't have gotten married.


Hmm... interesting theory on both counts. Your situation with your XH sounds a lot like my sitch with my XH.

You're making me think, BW.


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## Chuck71

BlueWoman said:


> Maybe, and to be honest, I know at the beginning I was scared to lose weight. Because I was HD and he was LD. I had a fear that if someone gave me that sexual charge, I would be tempted to cheat. Keeping my weight on was like a barrier to that. I think for him, me being heavy increased the likelihood that I wouldn't leave him.
> 
> Now I realize that I wasn't going to cheat, because I had strong boundaries with other men, and didn't allow them that kind of access. Really, we shouldn't have gotten married.


Did you think XH wanted you to gain weight so he would have an excuse to not be sexually attracted 

to you... hence the de facto excuse. After you realized this M was going in the crapper.... did you

intentionally keep it on to keep him from trying to be sexual in a way to attempt to re-connect?


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## BlueWoman

No. When he was interested he was interested and my weight didn't bother him. However, in the last year or two he completely cut me off from sex and it was a big point of contention. I know that I stopped initiating being as open with him because I was tired of being rejected. That's when I gained the bulk of my weight. 

I don't know, it's hard to work out people's motivations for what they do.


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