# Advice needed - ILYB.



## jay1234

Hi All

Im new here and obviously you have some idea of why I am here. I am your typical ILYB case. It has been going on now for 5 months. I thought things had started to turn around from last month once I made a fulsome apology. She started to soften (or so I thought). We even went on a 3 day weekend away and everything was perfect just no sex. 

Things came to a head last weekend after I stroked her hair and gently tried to kiss her. She told me that things had not changed for her and she was moving out. The next day she and the kids moved into a second property we usually rent out. She took most of her stuff and the TV. It took a bit of detective work for me to find out where they had gone. 

I had been reading the 180 rules and didn’t contact her for 48 hours. I went out, I meet my friends and I had quiet a few drinks. Basically I had a great time and felt a lot better. 
After 48 hours she contacted me and called over. She was very upset that I didn’t contact her or the kids to see if they were ok. I said she needed space and that is what I gave them. As she packed more stuff I went off. 

Here is where my questions and advice start:

1.	I contacted here via text and said if she wanted to move back I would give her space in the house but at least she could be comfortable in her home and the kids would be happier. She agreed and moved back that night. However things are very uncomfortable. 
WAS THIS A MISTAKE? SHOULD I OF LET THINGS AS THEY WERE FOR ANOTHER WHILE?

2.	We tried a marriage councillor. He wasn’t any good. 
SHOULD I ARRANGE ANOTHER COUNCILLER AND ASK HER TO GO? 

3.	I have moved to the spare room last night and I have stopped all affection in the house i.e. touching, kissing, I love you’s, hand holding etc. However today when I was going to work she asked was I not going to kiss her goodbye. 
WHAT SHOULD I DO HERE?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

What are you apologizing for?


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## Bananapeel

You know what you are saying she's doing is very typical for her having an affair. Any advice would be predicated first on knowing whether she's cheating on you. Throw a voice activated recorder (VAR) under her car seat with some Velcro to hold it in place. You'll get your answer soon enough and then can make an informed decision about what your choices are.


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## Adelais

Yes, what did you apologize for?

Did your wife say the ILYB? Did she say why she stayed?


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## farsidejunky

Do you have access to the phone bill? More specifically, her phone bill?


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## Rick Blaine

More background information is needed here. What happened leading up to her leaving the home.


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## turnera

Put a VAR velcroed under her car seat. You'll find out the truth.


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## Lostinthought61

Bottom line to all the questions above.....what is driving this....its either she is angry at you for not pulling your weight so the life, she has feeling for someone else, both or she suddenly had an Epiphany and questions her life and her love for you. remember there is always a reason.


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## jb02157

Do you know or have reason to believe that she's had an affair or any other reason her feeling have changed? If she's still treating you as she did before, I would continue the 180 toward her until you figure out the reason for her behavior. Don't start marriage counseling, that will only confuse you more. Instead try to get out of her why her feelings toward you have changed and whether it's fixable. If she still won't answer you, then there's probably an OM involved. Monitor everything, phone computer social media and use a VAR in her car to try to figure out what the heck is going on. 

Her reason for asking you why you wouldn't kiss her good bye today is confusing, after she rebuffed everything before. Maybe she's coming around?? It's still weird so I would still monitor the heck out of everything you can get your hands on to try to get answers.


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## BobSimmons

jay1234 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Im new here and obviously you have some idea of why I am here. I am your typical ILYB case. It has been going on now for 5 months. I thought things had started to turn around from last month once I made a fulsome apology. She started to soften (or so I thought). We even went on a 3 day weekend away and everything was perfect just no sex.
> 
> Things came to a head last weekend after I stroked her hair and gently tried to kiss her. She told me that things had not changed for her and she was moving out. The next day she and the kids moved into a second property we usually rent out. She took most of her stuff and the TV. It took a bit of detective work for me to find out where they had gone.
> 
> I had been reading the 180 rules and didn’t contact her for 48 hours. I went out, I meet my friends and I had quiet a few drinks. Basically I had a great time and felt a lot better.
> After 48 hours she contacted me and called over. She was very upset that I didn’t contact her or the kids to see if they were ok. I said she needed space and that is what I gave them. As she packed more stuff I went off.
> 
> Here is where my questions and advice start:
> 
> 1.	I contacted here via text and said if she wanted to move back I would give her space in the house but at least she could be comfortable in her home and the kids would be happier. She agreed and moved back that night. However things are very uncomfortable.
> WAS THIS A MISTAKE? SHOULD I OF LET THINGS AS THEY WERE FOR ANOTHER WHILE?
> 
> 2.	We tried a marriage councillor. He wasn’t any good.
> SHOULD I ARRANGE ANOTHER COUNCILLER AND ASK HER TO GO?
> 
> 3.	I have moved to the spare room last night and I have stopped all affection in the house i.e. touching, kissing, I love you’s, hand holding etc. However today when I was going to work she asked was I not going to kiss her goodbye.
> WHAT SHOULD I DO HERE?


Goddamn man.

She's not in love with you but she takes the kids, moves back in you move into the spare bed, you're tippy toeing around her, no sex, you stroke her hair she swats it away, she moves out then she's upset you're not calling her, then she's asking if you're not going to kiss her when you walk out the house.

Being blunt when you've gone from the house she's playing with those b*lls you've lost.

Forget the VAR, forget investigations, why are you chasing her like a puppy following it's tail?
She's playing you with the push and pull, as soon as you 180 she gives you a nice sh*t test and you cave.

Why not just ask what's going on. If things are uncomfortable then why is she asking for a kiss? She's not in love right? Why aren't you addressing why she's acting this way and stop playing the childish games. The very fact that your own children are being used should be a pause for concern, why aren't you pissed off?


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## StuckInLove

Jesus I cannot keep up with all the abbreviations around here...

What is ILYB???!

I propose a rule that if you're going to use abbreviations, you have to type out the full thing at least once if it's not a commonly used one!! 

But seriously, is there like some kind of glossary for all these abbreviations?


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## ReidWright

> It took a bit of detective work for me to find out where they had gone. 

yeah, usually the family courts frown on kidnapping by one of the parents. Lawyer up, and start documenting this nonsense.


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## Emerging Buddhist

StuckInLove said:


> Jesus I cannot keep up with all the abbreviations around here...
> 
> What is ILYB???!
> 
> I propose a rule that if you're going to use abbreviations, you have to type out the full thing at least once if it's not a commonly used one!!
> 
> But seriously, is there like some kind of glossary for all these abbreviations?



The shortened ILYBINILWY (I love you but I'm not in love with you).


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## jay1234

Wow thank you for all the reply's folks. I didn't expect such a response. So to answer some of your questions raised above:

The reason I apologised is based on advice from the UK online councillor Andrew G Marshall. His books on ILYB (I love you but Im not in love with you anymore) advise this and I could then see how many of the things I did drove her away i.e. prioritising other things above her, sex became infrequent, never going to her family events etc. 

Its like she had an Epiphany that I never really loved her and she was a fool. Gradually she fell out of love with me. 

I have no reason to suspect she is having an affair. She has the kids all the time unless I am with her. She does sometimes go out with her friends but i would often meet them out or of heard where they were and who was with them. I hate the idea if tapping her car. If she did that to me I would be so upset I would probably dump her. I dont want to give her any more ammunition. 

Since this happened I have been prioritising her, kissing her every day, cuddling up to her, organising weekends away, organising dates, meals etc etc etc. Once she moved out I stopped all that as per the 180. She is back because I told her to come back because of the kids being unhappy and am continuing the 180. She does seem to of noticed and I guess this is why she is looking for the kiss goodby in the mornings. 

So based on all your advice I wont suggest more counselling and continue the 180. One thing though is her biggest gripe was putting other things first and not being around. The 180 encourages putting other things first and not being around. I'm so confused.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

If no affair and this is more about her needs going unmet for so long that she fell out of love, I'd try to keep doing dates and finding out and meeting her emotional needs. It can take a bit of consistent work. 

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

How much time do you spend alone each week out of the house, away from the kids and electronics?
What are her top needs?


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## jay1234

Thanks Slowlygoingcrazy. 

We might go out once per week without the kids. We had a weekend away 2 weekends ago. It was great only no sex. That's why I was surprised only 5 days later she moved out. 

I guess I have been trying to meet her emotional need now for 4 months but she said it's not working and she still doesn't love me. :-(


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

You need to figure out what her specific needs are so you know which ones to meet. There are questionnaires on that website. Print them out and have her fill them out so you know where to put your energy. 

If physical touch isn't a high need then cuddles aren't going to do anything 

They say you need at least 15 hours a week alone time to maintain love. 

Remember that you're starting with a negative balance so it can take a while but it has to be consistent


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## Emerging Buddhist

jay1234 said:


> Wow thank you for all the reply's folks. I didn't expect such a response. So to answer some of your questions raised above:
> 
> The reason I apologised is based on advice from the UK online councillor Andrew G Marshall. His books on ILYB (I love you but Im not in love with you anymore) advise this and I could then see how many of the things I did drove her away i.e. prioritising other things above her, sex became infrequent, never going to her family events etc.
> 
> Its like she had an Epiphany that I never really loved her and she was a fool. Gradually she fell out of love with me.
> 
> I have no reason to suspect she is having an affair. She has the kids all the time unless I am with her. She does sometimes go out with her friends but i would often meet them out or of heard where they were and who was with them. I hate the idea if tapping her car. If she did that to me I would be so upset I would probably dump her. I dont want to give her any more ammunition.
> 
> Since this happened I have been prioritising her, kissing her every day, cuddling up to her, organising weekends away, organising dates, meals etc etc etc. Once she moved out I stopped all that as per the 180. She is back because I told her to come back because of the kids being unhappy and am continuing the 180. She does seem to of noticed and I guess this is why she is looking for the kiss goodby in the mornings.
> 
> So based on all your advice I wont suggest more counselling and continue the 180. One thing though is her biggest gripe was putting other things first and not being around. The 180 encourages putting other things first and not being around. I'm so confused.


This might be different than the other responses you received.

1. The spare room is far enough, be kind and observe but go no farther away... communicate your way back to a shared bedroom.

2. Find another marriage counselor who has references you can verify (you may need to do this more than once or twice).

3. Unless she is stepping out on your marriage, or you are actively separating or divorcing, no 180 (you need communication).

I couldn't tell you if she is seeing anyone else, trust your gut on that.

What I believe I see is someone who got tired of feeling unloved and the resentments have shut her down... been there, survived that... you need a very firm grasp of her love languages (and your's too).

I'm thinking along the lines of what @Lostinthought61 said and you confirmed... she is angry at you for not pulling your weight for a long time and she suddenly had an epiphany and questions her life and her love for you based on your previous behavior.

Behavior matters... while you know the past is the past only she can determine if the present is accurate. Kindness isn't "nice-ing" your way back in, it is a level of lived respect that shows you live what you say with an enforced boundary you can keep.

If she won't go to counseling, a viable response might be "Not a problem, I'll be going myself so I can make this better" or "Ok, I accept that but since we cannot mend this without help we might as well think about how we will co-parent as we will need those classes for our children". 

No games, just clear cause and effect.

Maybe she is testing you... that would be intentional, but maybe also she is as confused as you are... she really does love you ("in love" comes and goes like happiness and sadness) but she doesn't trust what she is seeing/feeling... that may take time to come back to something that shows her she is important and gives faith in the marriage again.


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## StuckInLove

Emerging Buddhist said:


> The shortened ILYBINILWY (I love you but I'm not in love with you).


That made me LOL. Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, I found somewhat of a glossary, but ILYB wasn't on the list. Common Abbreviations


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## Emerging Buddhist

StuckInLove said:


> That made me LOL. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> BTW, I found somewhat of a glossary, but ILYB wasn't on the list. Common Abbreviations


It's a pretty stressing thing when used... many think it's solely affair driven but I have experienced other drivers as I believe here.


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## Adelais

StuckInLove said:


> That made me LOL. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> BTW, I found somewhat of a glossary, but ILYB wasn't on the list. Common Abbreviations


I still run across an abbreviation that I'm not familiar with. Most of the time, they are simple to Google.


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## aine

jay1234 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Im new here and obviously you have some idea of why I am here. I am your typical ILYB case. It has been going on now for 5 months. I thought things had started to turn around from last month once I made a fulsome apology. She started to soften (or so I thought). We even went on a 3 day weekend away and everything was perfect just no sex.
> 
> Things came to a head last weekend after I stroked her hair and gently tried to kiss her. She told me that things had not changed for her and she was moving out. The next day she and the kids moved into a second property we usually rent out. She took most of her stuff and the TV. It took a bit of detective work for me to find out where they had gone.
> 
> I had been reading the 180 rules and didn’t contact her for 48 hours. I went out, I meet my friends and I had quiet a few drinks. Basically I had a great time and felt a lot better.
> After 48 hours she contacted me and called over. She was very upset that I didn’t contact her or the kids to see if they were ok. I said she needed space and that is what I gave them. As she packed more stuff I went off.
> 
> Here is where my questions and advice start:
> 
> 1.	I contacted here via text and said if she wanted to move back I would give her space in the house but at least she could be comfortable in her home and the kids would be happier. She agreed and moved back that night. However things are very uncomfortable.
> WAS THIS A MISTAKE? SHOULD I OF LET THINGS AS THEY WERE FOR ANOTHER WHILE?
> 
> 2.	We tried a marriage councillor. He wasn’t any good.
> SHOULD I ARRANGE ANOTHER COUNCILLER AND ASK HER TO GO?
> 
> 3.	I have moved to the spare room last night and I have stopped all affection in the house i.e. touching, kissing, I love you’s, hand holding etc. However today when I was going to work she asked was I not going to kiss her goodbye.
> WHAT SHOULD I DO HERE?



OK, You have not been meeting her needs, she is a potential walk away wife. What have you been doing, out with the boys, hobbies, never help around the house, etc etc?

The 180 will make matters worse. If you want to save this marriage and there is no cheating, then you need to get with what are her gripes with you and how to meet her needs, that is probably why there is no sex also.
The best thing to do is go to MC so that you have someone to mediate, you should set it up as an indication of your attempts to do better in the marriage.

She is playing hard to get, if she is resentful after years of you neglecting her, then she will not make it easy for you and she may not trust that you will follow through long term. Many men make promises and after a few months when they think it is safe revert back to the way they were.
Lastly, you may have actually pushed her beyond the point of no return, and she really does not love you anymore. However, research shows that love is not a feeling it is a verb so it can be rekindled but you need to get your finger out. Trips to the pub with the boys is not going to help.


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## Betrayedone

Jay.....you guys are likely done. No self respecting man would put up with the kind of crap she is serving up to you. Not helping your case by trying to pander to her. I recommend reading married man's sex life primer and doing the 180. Get your mind wrapped around the likelihood that this is going to unravel. You need to focus on maintaining your dignity and your greatest inner strength. You are at a fork in the road and you need to choose wisely.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

And no self respecting woman would put up with years of neglect and unmet needs from him. 

MMSLP? For a guy who wasn't meeting his wife's needs and wasn't home when she needed him?
Most women don't like mmslp guys to begin with and it will fail 100% if he tries that crap with a neglected wife. 

She needs consistency. My ex told me he'd change a dozen times, try for a few months and be back to his old self.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Jay, you have tried for 4 months and she moves the kids out, hides them then complains you did not reach out. I bet she acts stone cold when you try and touch her but demands a morning kiss so you can be reminded how repulsed she is with you. I say try your best for 2 more months to met her needs. Try the absolute best of your ability. If at the end of 2 months she continues with the "I Don't love you .." just hand her divorce papers and tell her you both deserve better- that you are done trying to be the man and husband she wants you to be while she remains uncommitted and that you are sick and tired of her ****e tests. Move out to the second house that you rent and start shuttling the kids back and forth with a 50-50 co-custody parenting plan. If she goes along with this and starts dating even before you are divorced better for you to know now rather then later. At that point 180 her and expedite the divorce and don't look back. However if she commits to trying and meets you half way then cool things off and continue to try and rekindle her love for you. Either way though if she has no passion for you just divorce and go your separate ways. Life is too short to be with someone who is always unhappy with you and makes you feel miserable.


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## Rick Blaine

I don't know how much you have talked about the relationship, but I would suggest you write her a love letter pledging your commitment to make your marriage romantic and ecstatic. Let her know that you have learned what is needed to fill each other's love bank and that you are asking her to take your hand as you walk together down a new path. She may not feel love in her heart right now, but she may be willing to give it a try so long as no one else is in the picture. I suggest you read the book "His Needs Her Needs" together and put in the time it takes to re-up your love banks.

If she is confused and angry, that is a GOOD sign. It means she's in the conflict stage. If she is completely withdrawn and apathetic that means your relationship is in red alert. Her anger over you not kissing her could be a good sign that she is conflict. That's a sign of life. I would hold off on the 180 and continue to try meeting her meeting her needs. And I agree with the other reader who suggested you go to the Marriage Builders Website and have each other take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire to ensure you're meeting the right ones. 

She may be confused because you have deployed different tactics. That's understandable. I would stick with the tactic of trying to meet her needs. Don't suffocate, don't dote, don't be a wimp about it. But do be assertive, romantic, physically attractive, confident, poised, and humorous. In other words, be the man she loved when you first dated. Also, remember that when a woman falls out of love it takes a lot of perseverance to get her back in love again. It's like making a beach without sand. You must throw in one or two pebbles at a time. This will take a lot of time and you can't expect immediate results. Are you willing to put in the time without the immediate reward? The fight for your marriage is worth it imo.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I do agree with setting a time line for yourself just for your own sanity. 

I think the 15 hours alone per week is an important one for you guys. 
Do that every week (don't miss any!) for a few months + meeting her specific emotional needs and stopping all "love busters"


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## turnera

jay1234 said:


> So based on all your advice I won't suggest more counselling and continue the 180. One thing though is her biggest gripe was putting other things first and not being around. The 180 encourages putting other things first and not being around. I'm so confused.


Remember the psychology. We want what we can't have; we take for granted what is easily available. Your job is to remind her that you are valuable. How to do that? By not being so available, by valuing yourself to the point that she has to prove to you why you should stay. By showing her that you respect yourself, that you know you'll be ok without her and that, if she can't value you, you don't need her. That you WANT her, but you don't NEED her. Once she realizes that, she has a choice to make - throw her dice in the game and focus on you and the marriage, or put _herself _first and lose you. It may seem opposite, but women WANT to choose you. But you have to show you deserve it, first.


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## jay1234

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I do agree with setting a time line for yourself just for your own sanity.
> 
> I think the 15 hours alone per week is an important one for you guys.
> Do that every week (don't miss any!) for a few months + meeting her specific emotional needs and stopping all "love busters"




Thank you for all your advice Slowlygoingcrazy. 

I've looked at the questionnaire you mentioned. I think (at this stage) this would annoy and offend her. I spoke to her about something similar to this before and she said she needs all of those things equally. The hard bit is that she wants more sex and affection out of our relationship but she certainly dosent want that now. 

I fully agree with your point about consistency and also setting a time limit on things for my own sanity. 

With regard to the 15 hours I have been arranging dates, weekends, nights away ever since this first happened 4 months ago so I guess Ive tried that and it isnt working. What I might do though is make time available going forward and it can be up to her to accept or refuse the time. That way she cant say I didnt make the time.


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## aine

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And no self respecting woman would put up with years of neglect and unmet needs from him.
> 
> MMSLP? For a guy who wasn't meeting his wife's needs and wasn't home when she needed him?
> Most women don't like mmslp guys to begin with and it will fail 100% if he tries that crap with a neglected wife.
> 
> She needs consistency. My ex told me he'd change a dozen times, try for a few months and be back to his old self.


Agreed, alot of the men on here are feeding him crap about not putting up with her actions and doing 180 blah blah bah. If she was having an affair, go for it, but I cannot help but sense that OP is not being forthright about his own role in the break down of the marriage and is simply sweeping over his actions by saying he gave an apology. 

Apology for what, be specific, you brushed over it completely, which also suggests you are not ready to own your ****! There is absolutely no excuse to neglect your wife. We keep telling people, stop making those in your life a priority if they make you an option. Was she only an option for you? 
I am concerned that people on here are egging you on in a direction that is detrimental to the saving of your marriage, because you have not been open and forthright with exposing your side of the street.


I believe there has been years of neglect and he has not prioritised her, his marriage or family except for the odd going out with her. I guess he has spent more time out with the lads, at the pub, hobby whatever. (been in a similar marriage)


Being encouraged to do the 180 will be the nail in the coffin as it shows her he really doesn't give a **** and she was right all along about his committment to her and the marriage. She is struggling now, she took drastic action by moving out but sees he is still obtuse and not ready to own his ****. If you OP continue this dance, you will lose the marriage because when she is done, she will be totally done and there will be no back peddling, you my friend are walking on very very thin ice. 

Time to stop sticking your head in the sand and find out exactly why your marriage ended up here and the pull up your boot straps and do something about it. Emotional neglect is the silent killer in marriages and leads to resentment and eventual death of the marriage. I think that is what is happening here. Please find out, doing the 180 is not going to solve this , maybe temporarily.


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## jay1234

SlowlyGoingCrazy
Broken_in_Brooklyn
Rick Blaine
turnera
aine

Your advice is so good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

Your right. This 180 aproach is bull**** unless she is already gone. Right now she is sitting on the fence and probably feeling alone and confused. 
@aine. Wow you tell it like it is. But thank you. I have faced up to what i did to contribute to this. You are correct. I have a second job at the weekend which is also my hobby. I spend way too much time doing this but it almost doubles my salary and has given us a very good lifestyle. 4 years ago it solved all our financal problems but I have continued working. If i wasnt doing that it was sport. If it wasnt that i was too tired to do anything with her. She gradually moved on, she had to. During this time I was also sent to work abroad for 9 months. It was a mutual decision but it certainly didnt help. 

Based on all your advice I'll stop all the cold 180 tactics but show her that I WANT her, but I don't NEED her ??? Me being affectionate seems to be pushing her away as it prob just reminds her that she dosnt love me. I will however try and be more positive, fun, happy and attractive to her.


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## Satya

Planning things isn't going to work if 1.) she's lost respect for you and 2.) it's obviously forced and "fake" behavior coming from you... And by that I mean it's abnormal behavior for you. 

Women smell forced changed behavior a mile away, and their suspicion and revulsion grows 10x because of it. As long as you stay consistent with what you're doing, make it appear more organic than forced, and give it TIME, she will start to accept it as your new normal. 

But this woman is your wife, she's no dope. We have millions of years of evolutionary-coded BS detection systems hardwired, not to mention advanced behavior analysis software embedded. You aren't going to be able to make ANY change that she doesn't 1.) detect, 2.)suspect, 3.)forensically analyze, possibly 4.)quarantine (test, poke, prod), and 5.)classify as a (false) positive until a time when she can recognize it as normal. 

There's no magic formula for mmslp or the 180. They are tools and tactics that require consistency and time to see any results. It's mostly how you execute them, some people need different degrees of application depending on how dire things are, then you slowly turn the dial one way or another as time goes on. 

It's a process, not an instant solution. If you don't have the patience needed, then just move on.


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## turnera

jay1234 said:


> With regard to the 15 hours I have been arranging dates, weekends, nights away ever since this first happened 4 months ago so I guess Ive tried that and it isnt working. What I might do though is make time available going forward and it can be up to her to accept or refuse the time. That way she cant say I didnt make the time.


It's not just dates. It's also the little moments like sitting down to drink a cup of tea or coffee and just talk for a few minutes. Taking a bath together. Taking a walk. Playing cards. Doing a jigsaw puzzle together. Getting a blanket and lying down under the stars. That's how you stay into each other. 

But as for dates, if you make arrangements and she turns you down, _YOU go anyway_! Let her see you choosing to enjoy yourself, with or without her. That takes the power over you out of her hands, and it makes you look more desirable because you respect yourself and value yourself.


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## Emerging Buddhist

jay1234 said:


> Me being affectionate seems to be pushing her away as it prob just reminds her that she dosnt love me. I will however try and be more positive, fun, happy and attractive to her.


I don't believe she doesn't love you, I believe she doesn't trust you to be true to making the changes needed. You have a seed planted that you are trying to overwater because you anxious for the seed to sprout and grow... seeds take their own time to germinate, sprout, and take root.

While you can influence it kindly with the right actions, you cannot control it. If you have no patience, you will give it all the wrong attention in your rush. 

It is wise to see your role in doing the things to grow and learn but be sure you are doing it for the right reasons as well. You are motivated for your marriage and to show your wife you can be a good partner and father... if you do this for anyone else but you it will be short lived and you will continue to suffer as will they.

For them is an important early root and an initial motivation, for you, that is the taproot.

Trust the process and be patient... trust takes time to get the blossom you desire.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

The questionnaire could go either way depending on how she's feeling. She may be annoyed or may be happy that you are wanting to understand her more. 

I wouldn't push them but print them out and ask if she'd like to fill them out so you can get a better understanding of her feelings. 

She may not always know how to express them in ways you can act on.


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## turnera

You may want to get the book first that the questionnaires come from. Read it, find the important parts, and read them out loud to her. I promise they will make sense to her. It's His Needs Her Needs.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

jay1234 said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy
> Broken_in_Brooklyn
> Rick Blaine
> turnera
> aine
> 
> Your advice is so good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
> 
> Your right. This 180 aproach is bull**** unless she is already gone. Right now she is sitting on the fence and probably feeling alone and confused.
> 
> @aine. Wow you tell it like it is. But thank you. I have faced up to what i did to contribute to this. You are correct. I have a second job at the weekend which is also my hobby. I spend way too much time doing this but it almost doubles my salary and has given us a very good lifestyle. 4 years ago it solved all our financal problems but I have continued working. If i wasnt doing that it was sport. If it wasnt that i was too tired to do anything with her. She gradually moved on, she had to. During this time I was also sent to work abroad for 9 months. It was a mutual decision but it certainly didnt help.
> 
> Based on all your advice I'll stop all the cold 180 tactics but show her that I WANT her, but I don't NEED her ??? Me being affectionate seems to be pushing her away as it prob just reminds her that she dosnt love me. I will however try and be more positive, fun, happy and attractive to her.


This is your reward for working hard and providing for your family. Does she work outside home? 

Be happy with or without her. You clearly want to be with her but remember you don't need her and can move on. She needs to see that. If your affection repulses her stop. That's a poop test. That has to stop. You were gone away for 9 months. Are you certain she did not have an affair and is secretly seeing him and now has divided loyalties? Kind of smells like it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

aine said:


> She is playing hard to get, if she is resentful after years of you neglecting her, then she will not make it easy for you and she may not trust that you will follow through long term. Many men make promises and after a few months when they think it is safe revert back to the way they were.
> Lastly, you may have actually pushed her beyond the point of no return, and she really does not love you anymore. However, research shows that love is not a feeling it is a verb so it can be rekindled but you need to get your finger out. Trips to the pub with the boys is not going to help.


I dont believe she is "playing hard to get". I think she is DONE. She left. Most women dont leave their home without serious reasoning. She has told him that she doesnt love him, why arent people believing her?? I have never fallen back in love with anyone who I fell out of love with, usually with women it just doesnt happen. We will hang in there through a LOT of crap, but when we are done, we are DONE. 

Jay, I agree with giving yourself a time limit to turn things around. Stop with trying to show her affection, you arent doing anything but pissing her off and pushing her away. If she doesnt feel love for you, she doesnt want physical contact with you, so back off on this part. I think you need to do like a modified 180... the 180 is businesslike...you want to back off for her but still be warm to her. Does that make sense? I cant seem to get it worded how I mean. Be self sufficient, take care of the house, take care of yourself.. let her see you taking action. You can try to include her, but dont freak out if she rejects any invitations. If it doesnt work out, at least you know you put in the effort to try, and can end it with some respect and dignity.


----------



## Rick Blaine

turnera said:


> You may want to get the book first that the questionnaires come from. Read it, find the important parts, and read them out loud to her. I promise they will make sense to her. It's His Needs Her Needs.


Ditto! And if nothing else, read it for yourself. Once you start so many lights will come on it will make your head spin. The book is a revelation.


----------



## jay1234

Good news folks. 

Last night I brought up the subject with my wife that she asked for space but then looks for kisses. I pointed out that she moved out looking for space but when I didn’t contact her (as she wanted space) she was upset I didn’t make contact. I pointed out that I was confused by her attitude and it was creating an atmosphere in the house. 

She said there was no atmosphere and that we should take things one step at a time. We kissed very briefly and snuggled up and watched some TV. At bedtime I suggested moving back into our bedroom and she said that was up to me. Obviously I said of course I want back in. First night I slept through the night in months. 

To say I am delighted is an understatement. However whilst the stress has gone from 100% to 50% I am under no illusion that we are far from fixed. 

I am going to take things (as she said) one step at a time. I need to be careful not to push too fast and give her the time she needs. Honestly my attitude towards her has changed for the better because of all this. I have listened and learned. All I can do now is consistently continue to demonstrate this and give her time. 

If you great people have any other advice please let me know. Firstly I will take your advice on reading the book. Is it “His Needs Her Needs”?


----------



## turnera

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/hi...MIsfbzlpys1QIVFZR-Ch1xugW_EAAYBCAAEgJYYfD_BwE


----------



## Rick Blaine

jay1234 said:


> Good news folks.
> 
> Last night I brought up the subject with my wife that she asked for space but then looks for kisses. I pointed out that she moved out looking for space but when I didn’t contact her (as she wanted space) she was upset I didn’t make contact. I pointed out that I was confused by her attitude and it was creating an atmosphere in the house.
> 
> She said there was no atmosphere and that we should take things one step at a time. We kissed very briefly and snuggled up and watched some TV. At bedtime I suggested moving back into our bedroom and she said that was up to me. Obviously I said of course I want back in. First night I slept through the night in months. 
> 
> To say I am delighted is an understatement. However whilst the stress has gone from 100% to 50% I am under no illusion that we are far from fixed.
> 
> I am going to take things (as she said) one step at a time. I need to be careful not to push too fast and give her the time she needs. Honestly my attitude towards her has changed for the better because of all this. I have listened and learned. All I can do now is consistently continue to demonstrate this and give her time.
> 
> If you great people have any other advice please let me know. Firstly I will take your advice on reading the book. Is it “His Needs Her Needs”?


This made me tear up. So happy to see that there are signs of life. Yes, the book is "His Needs, Her Needs: How to Affair Proof Your Marriage." You are correct in acknowledging that there are miles to go before you sleep. You are just getting started. Read the book right away, and ask her if she will read it with you. If not, read it alone. 

Don't suffocate her. Don't wait hand and foot on her. But be attentive, pleasant, confident, and humorous. Carve out time for her and you alone (15 hours a week) and see if she is open to a get-away for a few days. This quality time isn't for talking about the relationship. It's for doing things that you enjoy together: recreational activities, intimate conversation, and sexual fulfillment, if she is ready for that. Once you start filling her love bank, the relationship will recover. She is moving from withdrawal stage into the conflict stage and that is a good thing. But in the conflict stage, anger comes out. Those feelings are better than apathy. They show that she cares. You must work through this stage with the understanding it takes you to a better place. Best of luck.


----------



## jay1234

Hi all

Just an update on my situation and looking for some continued advice. My wife is still at home and things arnt going to bad as far as I can tell. (she moved back 12 days ago). 

We are going out this weekend with some friends so that should be fun. We are sleeping in the same bed every night since this time last week. As regards intimacy, I can kiss her goodbye if I am leaving the house but any kisses in bed don’t seem to be welcome. Obviously sex is still out of the question and I havnt pushed it for fear of pushing her away. I haven’t said “I love you” and either has she. I’m afraid if I say “I love you” it will just remind her that she has lost her feelings for me and put us back to square one. 

I am doing as much as I can with the kids. I am helping out as much as I can around the house. I guess I am trying to fill her love bank as much as possible without being over the top. 

My questions are:

1.	Should I bring up reading the book “His Needs Her Needs” with her or leave things as they are for now. (I intend reading it anyway)
2.	Should I raise a conversation about us and where we are. i.e. can we take the next step and consciously increase intimacy. 

I suppose I am nervous about pushing things and continually reminding my wife of the problem and resetting to clock to day zero.


----------



## aine

Satya said:


> Planning things isn't going to work if 1.) she's lost respect for you and 2.) it's obviously forced and "fake" behavior coming from you... And by that I mean it's abnormal behavior for you.
> 
> Women smell forced changed behavior a mile away, and their suspicion and revulsion grows 10x because of it. As long as you stay consistent with what you're doing, make it appear more organic than forced, and give it TIME, she will start to accept it as your new normal.
> 
> But this woman is your wife, she's no dope. We have millions of years of evolutionary-coded BS detection systems hardwired, not to mention advanced behavior analysis software embedded. You aren't going to be able to make ANY change that she doesn't 1.) detect, 2.)suspect, 3.)forensically analyze, possibly 4.)quarantine (test, poke, prod), and 5.)classify as a (false) positive until a time when she can recognize it as normal.
> 
> There's no magic formula for mmslp or the 180. They are tools and tactics that require consistency and time to see any results. It's mostly how you execute them, some people need different degrees of application depending on how dire things are, then you slowly turn the dial one way or another as time goes on.
> 
> It's a process, not an instant solution. If you don't have the patience needed, then just move on.


Satya, you make us sound like those AI robots! :grin2:


----------



## aine

jay1234 said:


> Good news folks.
> 
> Last night I brought up the subject with my wife that she asked for space but then looks for kisses. I pointed out that she moved out looking for space but when I didn’t contact her (as she wanted space) she was upset I didn’t make contact. I pointed out that I was confused by her attitude and it was creating an atmosphere in the house.
> 
> She said there was no atmosphere and that we should take things one step at a time. We kissed very briefly and snuggled up and watched some TV. At bedtime I suggested moving back into our bedroom and she said that was up to me. Obviously I said of course I want back in. First night I slept through the night in months. 
> 
> To say I am delighted is an understatement. However whilst the stress has gone from 100% to 50% I am under no illusion that we are far from fixed.
> 
> I am going to take things (as she said) one step at a time. I need to be careful not to push too fast and give her the time she needs. Honestly my attitude towards her has changed for the better because of all this. I have listened and learned. All I can do now is consistently continue to demonstrate this and give her time.
> 
> If you great people have any other advice please let me know. Firstly I will take your advice on reading the book. Is it “His Needs Her Needs”?


Maybe try Divorce Busting by Michelle Weiner Davis. It focuses on walk away wives and how the dynamic comes about


----------



## aine

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> This is your reward for working hard and providing for your family. Does she work outside home?
> 
> Be happy with or without her. You clearly want to be with her but remember you don't need her and can move on. She needs to see that. If your affection repulses her stop. That's a poop test. That has to stop. You were gone away for 9 months. Are you certain she did not have an affair and is secretly seeing him and now has divided loyalties? Kind of smells like it.


*This is your reward for working hard and providing for your family. Does she work outside home?*

This is exactly the kind of statement that shows that women are not all about the money. It is great for a man to be a provider, but he must be a husband first! I have told my husband he could earn zillions and it wouldn't change a damn thing. Whilst I appreciate his very hard work and support of our two kids, I can take care of myself, I have a job, money, own my own car, share in property, if I only need him for his earning power, then that is a problem. Can't you see that? This kind of thinking was probably ok in the 1800's or early 1950's. In fact when we married I was earning double my husband in a high powered job, which I gave up to have kids, (he didn't want to be the stay at home dad). So tell me how does your statement register with a woman who doesn't need a man to provide, is that all husbands are for?


----------



## Ynot

Ok, I have read through this entire thread. It appears that there are two opposing views to the OPs situation. On the one side are those who think she is gone or having an affair and pushing the 180. This is predominantly made up of men. Then there are those who seem to be siding with his wife, which seems to consist of mostly women. Yet I don't see where any one suggested that he simply ask his wife what is up. It appears he did based on his latest post, but the answer she gave did not make any sense or it was just his interpretation of the conversation.
So, the OP asked her what was up, and her reply was we just have to take it one step at a time? What does that even mean?
The OP is walking on eggshells, his marriage is on the rocks and his main concern is seems to be about getting laid. OP read that book, read every book you can get your hands on, who cares if she likes it or not. No person in their right mind is going to begrudge you for trying to improve your self. If they do, that is all the more reason to let them go. Jay so far it seems you are just allowing things to passively happen and then reacting to them. You haven't read the books or investigated anything, you are just living off your assumptions. Maybe it is time to start getting facts and then using them to figure this out and take action, rather than meekly take whatever comes and then reacting to them.
So to answer your two most recent questions:
#1, read the book, you don't even need to ask her permission, not should you worry about her reaction. If she is going to get upset at you, then you are better off without her. Plus you may come to realize that it is over or it isn't, you may realize you made mistakes you need to fix, you may realize she made mistakes that she need to fix, you may realize that what you have is just a sham anyways
#2, stop worrying about what you consider to be the next step (sex), your marriage is in crisis, sex will come when the crisis is resolved. Therefore resolving the crisis is the next step(s).


----------



## arbitrator

farsidejunky said:


> Do you have access to the phone bill? More specifically, her phone bill?


*My good friend, FSJ, is totally "spot on!"

Unless she's sporting a burner phone, let's just say that your joint cell phone bill will reveal far more than you may ever want to know in regard to all of her phone calls and texting activity. I know that it sure solved the mystery of my cheating RSXW years ago!

And nowadays, you can even access it online! *


----------



## ButtPunch

I also think the phone bill needs to be checked and a VAR needs to be utilized.


----------



## BobSimmons

The OP is allowed to sleep in his own bed and get a kiss.

He's living the dream.

Our work here is done.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Rebuilding love takes time. That's the problem, a guy is in the negatives with his wife's "love bank" he's nice for a few weeks with little to no change and thinks oh, it's not working. Might as well stop. 

No, it is going to take a long time of consistency to rebuild. You didn't get there in a few weeks. It was YEARS of neglect. It's going to take time to dig out of the hole you made and earn back trust. 

Not to mention, she's gotta go from withdrawal to conflict (anger) before she can even get to love. 

No quick fixes. Life long changes


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jay1234 said:


> Hi all
> 
> Just an update on my situation and looking for some continued advice. My wife is still at home and things arnt going to bad as far as I can tell. (she moved back 12 days ago).
> 
> We are going out this weekend with some friends so that should be fun. We are sleeping in the same bed every night since this time last week. As regards intimacy, I can kiss her goodbye if I am leaving the house but any kisses in bed don’t seem to be welcome. Obviously sex is still out of the question and I havnt pushed it for fear of pushing her away. I haven’t said “I love you” and either has she. I’m afraid if I say “I love you” it will just remind her that she has lost her feelings for me and put us back to square one.
> 
> I am doing as much as I can with the kids. I am helping out as much as I can around the house. I guess I am trying to fill her love bank as much as possible without being over the top.
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> *1.	Should I bring up reading the book “His Needs Her Needs” with her or leave things as they are for now. (I intend reading it anyway)
> 2.	Should I raise a conversation about us and where we are. i.e. can we take the next step and consciously increase intimacy. *
> 
> I suppose I am nervous about pushing things and continually reminding my wife of the problem and resetting to clock to day zero.


NO NO NO, GOD NO. I already told you to STOP with the damn intimacy, she doesnt want you at this point. Keep doing what you are doing and let her come to you. If she doesnt, then that means she doesnt want you, and you are just going to have to accept that reality. She may be able to continue on like this forever. OR... she may be making her exit plans, while she keeps you hopping around at the end of her leash until she gets everything lined up to get out. 

Read the book yourself. Dont touch her. Give yourself a time limit on this, like I said, she may be able to live like this for the next 30 years. If Im honest, I think you are only treading water here, I can guarantee if you start to bring up "relationship talk" she is going to shut you down and beat feet away from you.


----------



## turnera

Read the book and when you get to a particularly revolutionary part - there are quite a few - just tell her about it. Hey honey, look at what this book says... She'll be learning too.


----------



## aine

3Xnocharm said:


> NO NO NO, GOD NO. I already told you to STOP with the damn intimacy, she doesnt want you at this point. Keep doing what you are doing and let her come to you. If she doesnt, then that means she doesnt want you, and you are just going to have to accept that reality. She may be able to continue on like this forever. OR... she may be making her exit plans, while she keeps you hopping around at the end of her leash until she gets everything lined up to get out.
> 
> Read the book yourself. Dont touch her. Give yourself a time limit on this, like I said, she may be able to live like this for the next 30 years. If Im honest, I think you are only treading water here, I can guarantee if you start to bring up "relationship talk" she is going to shut you down and beat feet away from you.


I still don't think the OP get's the actual damage his neglect over the years has done and the repair job (if ever) is in front of him. Yet in true self centred fashion is more concerned about sex (intimacy) that actually than how she is hurting, it never ceases to amaze me every time, are men really that obtuse? (no offence to OP, he is trying a lot harder than many men would).


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It's a running theme I've seen often. 
Many men don't realize there is a problem until sex stops. 
Then they want to fix the sex part. 
They don't understand the years of problems that came before that needs to be fixed first. 

Then it's all "she said she needed more date nights but I took her on one and she still didn't sleep with me after so clearly that's not the real reason"


----------



## jay1234

Thank you everyone for your reply's. 


Slowlygoingcrazy / aine

I truly do get the damage I have done through years of prioritizing other things and not being there to support her. I am not that concerned about sex but it is a very clear indicator that things are nowhere near where they need to be. I am 'on here / reading various books / talking to people / talking to her' all in an effort to make things right between us. I am trying to find the must efficent path forward as almost everything I did during the first 2 months after her confession were pushing her further away as I was panicking. 


3xnocharm
Ill take your advice to keep doing what I am doing and not push intimacy. Ill try and let her come to me (if she ever does again)
You are also correct about not having a big relationship talk as she is on the fence and it might cause her to panic and leave. One of the things she says she feels guilty about is that she knows she is hurting me and I dont deserve it as I am such a great guy! You are correct I am afraid a deep relationship talk would tip her over the edge. 

Turnera
I'll take your advice on reading the book but I'm not sure about reading revolutionary sections to her. Wouldnt this be esentially the same as having the "big relationship talk" 3xnocharm advises not to have? 3xnocharm whats your thoughts on this?


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

In the end Jay you are doing this all for you... anything we cannot control is truly teaching us how to let go because we can put up our best effort and resolve to understand, and still lose.

You are learning your own awareness of you and how your dynamic affects a relationship.

You are learning how another in a relationship with you, affects you.

The best lesson isn't that "if I do this she will do that", the best lesson is "when I *am* this, she will with confidence and clarity believe what she sees because my actions mirror my behaviors and then she will choose to be with me or not.

Don't try to sell yourself to the wrong person...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jay1234 said:


> Turnera
> I'll take your advice on reading the book but I'm not sure about reading revolutionary sections to her. Wouldnt this be esentially the same as having the "big relationship talk" 3xnocharm advises not to have? 3xnocharm whats your thoughts on this?



When you come across something you would like to share, maybe just mention something like, hey I've been reading this book that talks about meeting your partner's needs, there is some really interesting info there. See if she responds with interest then share. If she rolls her eyes or tromps out of the room, then dont bother. Just my two cents. Do read the book, its really informative.


----------



## aine

Emerging Buddhist said:


> In the end Jay you are doing this all for you... anything we cannot control is truly teaching us how to let go because we can put up our best effort and resolve to understand, and still lose.
> 
> You are learning your own awareness of you and how your dynamic affects a relationship.
> 
> You are learning how another in a relationship with you, affects you.
> 
> The best lesson isn't that "if I do this she will do that", the best lesson is "when I *am* this, she will with confidence and clarity believe what she sees because my actions mirror my behaviors and then she will choose to be with me or not.
> 
> Don't try to sell yourself to the wrong person...


THIS! :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

jay1234 said:


> Turnera
> I'll take your advice on reading the book but I'm not sure about reading revolutionary sections to her. Wouldnt this be esentially the same as having the "big relationship talk" 3xnocharm advises not to have? 3xnocharm whats your thoughts on this?


You'll have to read it to understand. 'Listen to this, honey. We each have 3 top emotional needs. It says women's top needs are usually security, honesty, and conversation. I'd say honesty and conversation ring true for you, but I never thought about you having a big need for security. What do you think?'


----------



## Ynot

jay1234 said:


> Thank you everyone for your reply's.
> 
> 
> Slowlygoingcrazy / aine
> 
> I truly do get the damage I have done through years of prioritizing other things and not being there to support her. I am not that concerned about sex but it is a very clear indicator that things are nowhere near where they need to be. I am 'on here / reading various books / talking to people / talking to her' all in an effort to make things right between us. I am trying to find the must efficent path forward as almost everything I did during the first 2 months after her confession were pushing her further away as I was panicking.
> 
> 
> 3xnocharm
> Ill take your advice to keep doing what I am doing and not push intimacy. Ill try and let her come to me (if she ever does again)
> You are also correct about not having a big relationship talk as she is on the fence and it might cause her to panic and leave. One of the things she says she feels guilty about is that she knows she is hurting me and I dont deserve it as I am such a great guy! You are correct I am afraid a deep relationship talk would tip her over the edge.
> 
> Turnera
> I'll take your advice on reading the book but I'm not sure about reading revolutionary sections to her. Wouldnt this be esentially the same as having the "big relationship talk" 3xnocharm advises not to have? 3xnocharm whats your thoughts on this?


This post highlights the OPs misunderstanding. You do not read the book for her or your relationship. You read it for you. It is the same with the 180 - it is not about her or the relationship, it is about focusing on your self for YOU, not for anybody else. In the midst of reading the book or focusing on your self, you may come to some realizations that where you are is not really where you want to be. It also allows you to understand that your wife may feel the same. At this point you can decide is this something I want, is this something I can live with? Stop focusing on her and the relationship or more specifically the benefits (intimacy) of the relationship and start working on your self. It will serve you well regardless of how she may choose to react.


----------



## jay1234

I'm at a really low point today. My wife is still here at home with however she is making me miserable. We agreed to work on things however we went out Fri night and she spend the night avoiding me. Yesterday she went out with a friend to the pub at 6.30pm and returned at 4.00am drunk. Today she's gone and left the kids with me again as she too hungover to help mind them. 

Having read the his needs her needs book I can see she is seriously depleting my love bank. I'm seriously questioning do I want this person in my life. And that upsets me. I feel I'm falling out of love with her rapidly. 

However if you meet us everything would appear to be bliss as she loves to put on a show. She's even full of chat, texting, etc. 

Rant over. Sorry all. Just need to get things off my chest.


----------



## turnera

Stop putting on a show. Share your truth.


----------



## Spicy

I'm sorry to hear what your family is going through. I feel for ALL of you.

Just a few questions- How old are each of you? How old are your kids? How long have you been married? When your marriage was what you consider to be very good, how frequent was the intimacy? For how long did she express unhappiness before she said the dreaded sentence?

I can really only speak from my own experience as a wife. Once I said ILYB, I was LOOOONNNGGG since done. For well over a decade I had let my XH know the things that needed to change for me to regain happiness and our marriage to be a success. He would always promise to change, but it was only temporary. Sex never resumed, but I allowed the peck as he left for work, for the kids. After I had said ILYB, I agreed many more times to stay (because of the kids), which ended up being a couple more years. It was hopeless though, because I was done. The warnings had all been ingnored, and my love had been slowly murdered. If that is the case with your wife, your effort is probably too little, too late. I'm afraid there isn't anything left to save. I hope I am wrong.


----------



## thedope

jay1234 said:


> I'm at a really low point today. My wife is still here at home with however she is making me miserable. We agreed to work on things however we went out Fri night and she spend the night avoiding me. Yesterday she went out with a friend to the pub at 6.30pm and returned at 4.00am drunk. Today she's gone and left the kids with me again as she too hungover to help mind them.
> 
> Having read the his needs her needs book I can see she is seriously depleting my love bank. I'm seriously questioning do I want this person in my life. And that upsets me. I feel I'm falling out of love with her rapidly.
> 
> However if you meet us everything would appear to be bliss as she loves to put on a show. She's even full of chat, texting, etc.
> 
> Rant over. Sorry all. Just need to get things off my chest.


You all really need to get into marriage counseling.


----------



## jay1234

Spicy said:


> I'm sorry to hear what your family is going through. I feel for ALL of you.
> 
> Just a few questions- How old are each of you? How old are your kids? How long have you been married? When your marriage was what you consider to be very good, how frequent was the intimacy? For how long did she express unhappiness before she said the dreaded sentence?
> 
> I can really only speak from my own experience as a wife. Once I said ILYB, I was LOOOONNNGGG since done. For well over a decade I had let my XH know the things that needed to change for me to regain happiness and our marriage to be a success. He would always promise to change, but it was only temporary. Sex never resumed, but I allowed the peck as he left for work, for the kids. After I had said ILYB, I agreed many more times to stay (because of the kids), which ended up being a couple more years. It was hopeless though, because I was done. The warnings had all been ingnored, and my love had been slowly murdered. If that is the case with your wife, your effort is probably too little, too late. I'm afraid there isn't anything left to save. I hope I am wrong.




How old are each of you? 
39

How old are your kids? 
7 & 8

How long have you been married? 
10 years

When your marriage was what you consider to be very good, how frequent was the intimacy? 
2-3 times per week

For how long did she express unhappiness before she said the dreaded sentence?
I didn’t see it coming. However about 3 years into the marriage we maybe had a chat every 2 years and she would bring up something she was unhappy with. I guess it changed but only temporally. Since we got married we only had “the chat” probably 4 or 5 times. 

I really hope you are wrong too about it being too little too late. Is there anything your Husband could of done during the 2 years to help reconcile? Or was it completely hopeless.


----------



## jay1234

thedope said:


> You all really need to get into marriage counseling.



We tried that but the counceller didnt seem to be skilled in couples counselling. He said he was but all he did was get us to speak about our problems and then ask 1. What did you hear? 2. How did that make you feel? 

For that reason she is reluctant to go again. Seems there arnt many skilled marriage councellors around here.


----------



## Marc878

jay1234 said:


> I'm at a really low point today. My wife is still here at home with however she is making me miserable. We agreed to work on things however we went out Fri night and she spend the night avoiding me. *Yesterday she went out with a friend to the pub at 6.30pm and returned at 4.00am drunk. Today she's gone and left the kids with me again as she too hungover to help mind them. *
> 
> Having read the his needs her needs book I can see she is seriously depleting my love bank. I'm seriously questioning do I want this person in my life. And that upsets me. I feel I'm falling out of love with her rapidly.
> 
> However if you meet us everything would appear to be bliss as she loves to put on a show. She's even full of chat, texting, etc.
> 
> Rant over. Sorry all. Just need to get things off my chest.



Get your head out of your ass and check your phone bill.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jay1234 said:


> How old are each of you?
> 39
> 
> How old are your kids?
> 7 & 8
> 
> How long have you been married?
> 10 years
> 
> When your marriage was what you consider to be very good, how frequent was the intimacy?
> 2-3 times per week
> 
> For how long did she express unhappiness before she said the dreaded sentence?
> I didn’t see it coming. However about 3 years into the marriage we maybe had a chat every 2 years and she would bring up something she was unhappy with. I guess it changed but only temporally. Since we got married we only had “the chat” probably 4 or 5 times.



So, you "ONLY" had a chat about what she was unhappy with about 5-10 times?? And you didnt see this coming?? Did you think she was kidding? 



jay1234 said:


> I really hope you are wrong too about it being too little too late. Is there anything your Husband could of done during the 2 years to help reconcile? Or was it completely hopeless.


I cant answer for Spicy, but for me, having been in the same situation.... NOPE.


----------



## jay1234

Update on my situation folks. 

Things at home are not going to bad at the moment. We are getting on well and I am managing to arrange:
-	Going out together (without the kids) a 2-3 of times a week for drinks, lunch, walks etc
-	I can kiss her hello or good bye without her recoiling. 
-	We snuggle up every evening together to watch our favorite programs on TV. 
-	A couple of times recently we even were able to have an extended kiss for a couple of minutes. 

I am also making a bigger effort to
-	Do more with the kids.
-	Help more around the house.
-	Engage her in conversation about her day.
-	Tell her more about my day, feelings, problems etc.
-	Support her with problems she may be having. 


She has even willingly started to ask me to go for a walk, meet me when I am out, kiss me when I enter or leave the house. 

All sounds very positive and great, right? I’m not sure?

What I am concerned about is that 
-	She has stated that she doesn’t want to continue couples counselling as its BS
-	She has stated that she doesn’t want individual counselling as that’s BS too. 
-	She refuses to read any books on this subject as they are all BS.
-	She never initiates anything affectionate or intimate except the quick hello or goodbye kiss. 
-	Sex is out of the question (this doesn’t bother me ATM and I am certainly not pushing it)
-	She still says she doesn’t know if she wants the marriage or not. 


At this stage its been 6 months since her confession of ILYBINILWY. Do people think I should I continue to be the one making the effort. I feel I am the only one making the effort. Should I have it out with her and say it’s time to make her mind up? I love her more than anything but after 6 months this has really started to wear me down. Do people think I am starting to see green shoots?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

This is a good read. Yes it is unfair and frustrating but think about how long it took to get to where you are now. Only you can decide when enough is enough but this part, the one spouse leading the other back from total withdrawl is not much fun and a lot of giving without much getting. 

How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy


----------



## turnera

Yes, it's starting to show progress. The unfortunate thing you have to remember is that it took HER a long time to get to the point that she had given up. Months or years of a way of thinking, being disappointed, feeling hurt, whatever. So it's likely going to take just as long for her to trust that you get it, that your changes are real. She feels she has to protect herself.

But don't concentrate too much on it, ok? Just enjoy life, one day at a time. Look for your blessings. Show her a stable, happy man who she can depend on.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jay1234 said:


> At this stage its been 6 months since her confession of ILYBINILWY. Do people think I should I continue to be the one making the effort. I feel I am the only one making the effort. *Should I have it out with her and say it’s time to make her mind up? *I love her more than anything but after 6 months this has really started to wear me down. Do people think I am starting to see green shoots?


Why the hell would you leave this up to her?? She is the one who gave the whole ILYB speech and wanted out, from what you describe, she is just going through the motions because she is afraid to actually move on. Give it another six weeks, and if things arent progressing from her side, let her know its over. Take control over your own life, stop letting her decide what happens.


----------



## turnera

But things are progressing. She's reaching out to him, asking to meet with him, going out with him several times a week.


----------



## ButtPunch

MMSLP by Athol Kay

You aren't going to nice her back.

Check her phone. Get a VAR.

If she's cheating, employ the 180.

If she's not, employ the MAP in MMSLP.


----------



## Bananapeel

aine said:


> I still don't think the OP get's the actual damage his neglect over the years has done and the repair job (if ever) is in front of him. Yet in true self centred fashion is more concerned about sex (intimacy) that actually than how she is hurting, it never ceases to amaze me every time, *are men really that obtuse*? (no offence to OP, he is trying a lot harder than many men would).
> 
> Umm, yes!





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's a running theme I've seen often.
> Many men don't realize there is a problem until sex stops.
> Then they want to fix the sex part.
> They don't understand the years of problems that came before that needs to be fixed first.
> 
> Then it's all "she said she needed more date nights but I took her on one and she still didn't sleep with me after so clearly that's not the real reason"


It's actually pretty easy with women but most men don't understand it. If women feel like they are being listened to and understood, and the guy is a man they're proud of being with then the sex doesn't stop. Assuming she isn't have an affair, and maybe she is, then Jay needs to figure out how to properly communicate with his wife. That's his only way to dig himself out of this hole. Those are the types of books he should be focusing on and the type of skills he needs to be working through with a counselor. 

Jay, you didn't mention this but what was your role in contributing to your relationship problems? And when things started to go south (i.e. she stopped reaching for your hand to hold, stopped laughing at your jokes, stopped primping before you got home, stopped making you special meals, etc.), did you do anything of just ignore the signs until this snowballed and she got fed up?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Ugh read mmslp if you never want your wife or any other woman to ever find you attractive again. 

You can "nice" your wife back from being a walkaway. It'd take a lot of time and patience but it takes a lot of time to get to that point in the first place. 

Changing anything now loses the consistency and she can't trust his changes.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Ugh read mmslp if you never want your wife or any other woman to ever find you attractive again.
> 
> You can "nice" your wife back from being a walkaway. It'd take a lot of time and patience but it takes a lot of time to get to that point in the first place.
> 
> Changing anything now loses the consistency and she can't trust his changes.


You can follow that Dr. Harley nonsense if you want to. 

How's that been working out for you these last six months?

She will continue to string you along with her love kibbles she feeds you.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

jay1234 said:


> Update on my situation folks.
> 
> Things at home are not going to bad at the moment. We are getting on well and I am managing to arrange:
> -	Going out together (without the kids) a 2-3 of times a week for drinks, lunch, walks etc
> -	I can kiss her hello or good bye without her recoiling.
> -	We snuggle up every evening together to watch our favorite programs on TV.
> -	A couple of times recently we even were able to have an extended kiss for a couple of minutes.
> 
> I am also making a bigger effort to
> -	Do more with the kids.
> -	Help more around the house.
> -	Engage her in conversation about her day.
> -	Tell her more about my day, feelings, problems etc.
> -	Support her with problems she may be having.
> 
> 
> She has even willingly started to ask me to go for a walk, meet me when I am out, kiss me when I enter or leave the house.
> 
> All sounds very positive and great, right? I’m not sure?
> 
> What I am concerned about is that
> -	She has stated that she doesn’t want to continue couples counselling as its BS
> -	She has stated that she doesn’t want individual counselling as that’s BS too.
> -	She refuses to read any books on this subject as they are all BS.
> -	She never initiates anything affectionate or intimate except the quick hello or goodbye kiss.
> -	Sex is out of the question (this doesn’t bother me ATM and I am certainly not pushing it)
> -	She still says she doesn’t know if she wants the marriage or not.
> 
> 
> At this stage its been 6 months since her confession of ILYBINILWY. Do people think I should I continue to be the one making the effort. I feel I am the only one making the effort. Should I have it out with her and say it’s time to make her mind up? I love her more than anything but after 6 months this has really started to wear me down. Do people think I am starting to see green shoots?


5 more weeks. Wait 5 more weeks. She continues with ILYBINILWY hand her a packed suitcase and hold the house door open. Point the open road to her. Tell her after all this time I deserve better and apparently you think the same way. You certainly have showed me by your indifference and inaction. Now, since I disgust you so much please leave, at this moment you certainly disgust me. Please leave now, my attorney wlll contact you. 

If you want to continue masturbating while your wife treats you like the worst person who ever lived that is your choice. Believe it or not you actually have a say in this, this being your marriage. Its your choice.


----------



## smi11ie

Don't try and nice her back. It's only re-enforcing her mindset......that you were an idiot all along. Find out what's going on with her sex life.


----------



## JustAFamilyMan

ButtPunch said:


> You can follow that Dr. Harley nonsense if you want to.
> 
> She will continue to string you along with her love kibbles she feeds you.
> 
> Until a real man sweeps her off her feet.


Each of those are as nonsense as the other when taken as the only source of truth or guide to behavior. The difference being that the Dr. Harley "nonsense" is at least from the perspective of an adult and has a wealth of useful knowledge everyone can employ, where the "rawr, caveman" mmslp approach seems far more juvenile. The important nuggets of truth in the mmslp is that men need to remember to:

- Stay fit to stay attractive
- Remember that it's important to take the lead sometimes, with some variance for each relationship as we're all different

Almost all of the rest is juvenile peacocking BS that will attract, what are to me anyway, women I wouldn't want to find myself entangled with in life, OR under the sheets.


----------



## JustAFamilyMan

Forums went wonky.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> You can follow that Dr. Harley nonsense if you want to.
> 
> She will continue to string you along with her love kibbles she feeds you.
> 
> Until a real man sweeps her off her feet.


A real man would never read that mmslp garbage but she may very well decide it's too much resentment and leave and find a man who didn't spend years ignoring her needs and "chats" about wanting to fix it until she lost all desire. 

It's not an easy fix when there is years of neglect to overcome. He can decide it's too much of a battle for him too. It's certainly not for everyone but suggesting he go full on d-bag as one of the mmslp guys is counter productive. He's better off just leaving then listen to that pathetic, ego driven nonsense. At least he'd still have a chance starting over right with another woman. 

Out in the dating scene, the last thing any of us want is those guys other than for a good laugh.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A real man would never read that mmslp garbage but she may very well decide it's too much resentment and leave and find a man who didn't spend years ignoring her needs and "chats" about wanting to fix it until she lost all desire.
> 
> It's not an easy fix when there is years of neglect to overcome. He can decide it's too much of a battle for him too. It's certainly not for everyone but suggesting he go full on d-bag as one of the mmslp guys is counter productive. He's better off just leaving then listen to that pathetic, ego driven nonsense. At least he'd still have a chance starting over right with another woman.
> 
> Out in the dating scene, the last thing any of us want is those guys other than for a good laugh.


I agree he should leave.

All he's doing now is feeding her ego while simultaneously pushing her further away. 

At least with the map he is working on himself.

Nice guys finish last always have always will.


----------



## farsidejunky

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> 5 more weeks. Wait 5 more weeks. She continues with ILYBINILWY hand her a packed suitcase and hold the house door open. Point the open road to her. Tell her after all this time I deserve better and apparently you think the same way. You certainly have showed me by your indifference and inaction. Now, since I disgust you so much please leave, at this moment you certainly disgust me. Please leave now, my attorney wlll contact you.
> 
> If you want to continue masturbating while your wife treats you like the worst person who ever lived that is your choice. Believe it or not you actually have a say in this, this being your marriage. Its your choice.


This.

Jay, set a deadline and stick with it. Once that deadline is reached, and this is still ongoing, tell her you are doing her a favor by setting her free.

At that time, when she complains, hold your hand up and tell her the time for complaining is over. Tell her that conversations like that are for couples who are all in for making their marriage work, and she's clearly shown she's unwilling to do so. Then walk away and go do something you enjoy.


----------



## Bananapeel

I liked the MMSLP book. There was some good info in it, but it takes some time to weed through the parts that aren't as good. I'd recommend he read it and select the parts that apply to and can improve his situation. I wouldn't limit myself to that book but instead use it with other books to fill in the areas he needs to improve on. 

Among all of the books, there is really just a handful of really good advice that can be summed up in a few lines.

1. Be the best version of yourself that you can be. That means be fit, active, successful, confident, a good husband/father, and be actively engaged in life. 
2. Continue to date your wife. Don't fall into the trap of complacency. That means take the initiative to regularly plan a nice evening out and don't do the same thing every time. 
3. Learn to listen/communicate with your spouse. Most men suck at this but can improve with a little effort.
4. Know what you want out of life and work towards those goals. That also means be able to recognize and walk away from situations that are counterproductive to those goals, such as a bad relationship that isn't salvageable. 
5. If your spouse is having an affair, then don't try to nice them back (see #4).


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> I agree he should leave.
> 
> All he's doing now is feeding her ego while simultaneously pushing her further away.
> 
> At least with the map he is working on himself.
> 
> Nice guys finish last always have always will.


He wasn't a nice guy if he was ignoring her needs and chats for years. That's the problem here. It's not like he was being a good husband and she just decided to stop loving him. 
He was neglectful. She had at least 4 or 5 times tried talking to him about it until she finally had enough. 

That was years to get her to that point. He's been trying to fix it for 6 months and has gotten some improvement. How do you think she felt trying and getting nowhere for years? The same as he's feeling now but at least he's made some progress.


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> Jay, set a deadline and stick with it. Once that deadline is reached, and this is still ongoing, tell her you are doing her a favor by setting her free.
> 
> At that time, when she complains, hold your hand up and tell her the time for complaining is over. Tell her that conversations like that are for couples who are all in for making their marriage work, and she's clearly shown she's unwilling to do so. Then walk away and go do something you enjoy.


Good advice here but my point is that he's been going at it for six months already.

She's not working on this marriage. He can't do it alone.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He wasn't a nice guy if he was ignoring her needs and chats for years. That's the problem here. It's not like he was being a good husband and she just decided to stop loving him.
> He was neglectful. She had at least 4 or 5 times tried talking to him about it until she finally had enough.
> 
> That was years to get her to that point. He's been trying to fix it for 6 months and has gotten some improvement. How do you think she felt trying and getting nowhere for years? The same as he's feeling now but at least he's made some progress.


He thinks he made progress but he really hasn't.

I accept that it's his fault. Hope he learns from it.

Still isn't going to bring his wife back.

Let her go. She should have let him go already.

I can assure you that Dr. Harley garbage isn't going to bring her back and neither
is the MMSLP for that matter. We only can control ourselves not other people.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Going out on dates and touching and kissing is progress. It took a long time to get where they are now, it'll take a long time to get back.

It can and does work if there's enough patience and consistency but it's a long road, through conflict, and without his needs being met for some time. Most just don't feel it's worth it and that's perfectly fine. The problem comes from wanting instant results. That's just not going to happen. There's no quick fix, it's a long road of consistent change. 

Think if he had had an affair instead of years of being neglectful. The damage is very much the same. Would you expect her to be 100% on board and loving after 6 months or would it take a long time of consistent change to prove to her she can trust in him and let her guard down enough to be in the marriage? They are in R. R is a lifetime of changing your patterns to build a better marriage.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Can someone point out to me why this is all his fault?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Plus you have to consider that the first 5 months the OP had no set plan, was doing the 180, back and forth between things. He wasn't doing 1 thing consistently for the entire 6 months. The regular date nights have only been happening a few weeks now and has already slightly improved the situation.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Going out on dates and touching and kissing is progress. It took a long time to get where they are now, it'll take a long time to get back.
> 
> It can and does work if there's enough patience and consistency but it's a long road, through conflict, and without his needs being met for some time. Most just don't feel it's worth it and that's perfectly fine. The problem comes from wanting instant results. That's just not going to happen. There's no quick fix, it's a long road of consistent change.
> 
> Think if he had had an affair instead of years of being neglectful. The damage is very much the same. Would you expect her to be 100% on board and loving after 6 months or would it take a long time of consistent change to prove to her she can trust in him and let her guard down enough to be in the marriage? They are in R. R is a lifetime of changing your patterns to build a better marriage.


I see your point. I just don't agree with it.

Limbo is not an acceptable way to live. 

OP

You've made a mistake. You have owned it. Apologized for it. Tried for six months
to atone for it. I believe the ball is in her court. She either wants to be married or she doesn't.
Looks like she doesn't. So hit the gym employ the MAP and do something for yourself. Be the
confident attractive man you were when your wife met you.

Where is his wife's ownership in her problems in the marriage. Is she working on those. Did she do anything that would push the OP away and cause him to withdraw and be neglectful. Marriage isn't a one way street or was she perfect like everyone here seems to believe.

I know if my partner is meeting all my needs I would be anything but neglectful.


----------



## smi11ie

Find out what's going on and confront it. How can you take sole responsibility for everything if you know nothing. Analyze the situation once you have the facts. I am sure you have some part to play in the break down of your marriage but get the whole picture before you nail your own thumb.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

About Himself: 
"The reason I apologised is based on advice from the UK online councillor Andrew G Marshall.
His books on ILYB (I love you but Im not in love with you anymore) advise this and I 
could then see how many of the things I did drove her away i.e. prioritising other things above her, 
sex became infrequent, never going to her family events etc."

"How you tell it like it is. But thank you. I have faced up to what i did to contribute to this. You are correct. I have a second job at the weekend which is also my hobby. I spend way too much time doing this but it almost doubles my salary and has given us a very good lifestyle. 4 years ago it solved all our financal problems but I have continued working. If i wasnt doing that it was sport. If it wasnt that i was too tired to do anything with her. She gradually moved on, she had to. During this time I was also sent to work abroad for 9 months. It was a mutual decision but it certainly didnt help. "

"I didn’t see it coming. However about 3 years into the marriage we maybe had a chat every 2 years and she would bring up something she was unhappy with. I guess it changed but only temporally. Since we got married we only had “the chat” probably 4 or 5 times. 



About Her: 

" wife is still here at home with however she is making me miserable. We agreed to work on things however we went out Fri night and she spend the night avoiding me. Yesterday she went out with a friend to the pub at 6.30pm and returned at 4.00am drunk. Today she's gone and left the kids with me again as she too hungover to help mind them. "

Tell me again., why is this his fault? Reading his self criticisms sounds like a marriage to me that can be fixed. Now her getting wasted with who knows who... Well,. Right... "A friend"

There is no doubt in my mind she is having or had sex with another man and now does not want to cheat on her lover with her husband. This is classic cheater script where it is all his fault because she has NOT been honest with him.

OP, your wife has or had a side piece going on. Forget about books for now, figure out who he is. You were away for 9 months. Someone "filled": her needs and she is now blaming you.


----------



## jay1234

So its been a while since I've been on here and I'm still in living Hell. Things have not changed one bit in terms of her affection towards me. 

I have enough 2 weeks ago and moved out to another house we have. The house is normally rented out and is empty atm. I moved in for 2 nights / 3 days and I nearly cracked. I couldnt bare the silence, no TV, no internet, freezing cold, grey, no kids, etc. etc. So I packed up and went back home. 

I told my wife I'm home as this is my home, I did nothing wrong, Ive single handly paid for the mortgage for 10 years etc etc. I said I'm home to work on the marriage and not leaving again...

A couple of days later she texted me and said she really needed a couple of weeks space and that I shouldn't of come home without consultation. She said she had started to miss me. Now she says she dosent know what she wants. We had an argument about it and she says she wont move out cos of the kids. She understandably dosent want to move the kids however I cant mind them because of the way I work. 

We agreed to take a 2 week break from our relationship whilst both living in the same house. We agreed separate bedrooms, sitting rooms, and I am going away this weekend with some friends. When I came back she may go away for a couple of days. Basically we are giving each other some space for a couple of weeks. 

I asked for commitment from her that after the two weeks we would agree to reconciliation. I also asked that we attend marriage counselling and or individual counselling dowing this 2 weeks. She refused saying that she couldnt say she wanted a reconciliation and that she wanted space without me pushing counselling. 

She is concerned that we are now 8 months in and her feelings havent changed. She is still confused, dosent know what to do and that she dosent feel the same anymore. 

For 8 months Ive been helping more around the house, spending more quality time with the kids, buying her small presents, showing her affection, telling her I love her, planning fun family outings, going on nights our with her etc, etc, etc, She said she really noticed that the kids have become much closer to me and that she really likes that. 

How should I deal with this? I still want her and the marriage but she isnt coming round. Is it possible to "give" her space still living at home? By giving her space I'm distancing myself from the kids a little bit (the one thing she is liking)

Every time I leave for work she still gives me a peak on the cheek  She is still really friendly towards me. She still offers to cook my dinner every day as she says she is cooking anyway. 

I can see how a real trial separation could possible help but I dont see how it could have the same effect if I'm living under the same roof.


----------



## ButtPunch

jay1234 said:


> So its been a while since I've been on here and I'm still in living Hell. Things have not changed one bit in terms of her affection towards me.
> 
> I have enough 2 weeks ago and moved out to another house we have. The house is normally rented out and is empty atm. I moved in for 2 nights / 3 days and I nearly cracked. I couldnt bare the silence, no TV, no internet, freezing cold, grey, no kids, etc. etc. So I packed up and went back home.
> 
> I told my wife I'm home as this is my home, I did nothing wrong, Ive single handly paid for the mortgage for 10 years etc etc. I said I'm home to work on the marriage and not leaving again...
> 
> A couple of days later she texted me and said she really needed a couple of weeks space and that I shouldn't of come home without consultation. She said she had started to miss me. Now she says she dosent know what she wants. We had an argument about it and she says she wont move out cos of the kids. She understandably dosent want to move the kids however I cant mind them because of the way I work.
> 
> We agreed to take a 2 week break from our relationship whilst both living in the same house. We agreed separate bedrooms, sitting rooms, and I am going away this weekend with some friends. When I came back she may go away for a couple of days. Basically we are giving each other some space for a couple of weeks.
> 
> I asked for commitment from her that after the two weeks we would agree to reconciliation. I also asked that we attend marriage counselling and or individual counselling dowing this 2 weeks. She refused saying that she couldnt say she wanted a reconciliation and that she wanted space without me pushing counselling.
> 
> She is concerned that we are now 8 months in and her feelings havent changed. She is still confused, dosent know what to do and that she dosent feel the same anymore.
> 
> For 8 months Ive been helping more around the house, spending more quality time with the kids, buying her small presents, showing her affection, telling her I love her, planning fun family outings, going on nights our with her etc, etc, etc, She said she really noticed that the kids have become much closer to me and that she really likes that.
> 
> How should I deal with this? I still want her and the marriage but she isnt coming round. Is it possible to "give" her space still living at home? By giving her space I'm distancing myself from the kids a little bit (the one thing she is liking)
> 
> Every time I leave for work she still gives me a peak on the cheek  She is still really friendly towards me. She still offers to cook my dinner every day as she says she is cooking anyway.
> 
> I can see how a real trial separation could possible help but I dont see how it could have the same effect if I'm living under the same roof.


Did you do anything that I previously asked?

Did you buy a VAR and put it under her car seat?

Did you check the phone records?

Does she password protect her phone?

Is she on her phone alot?

You are not going to be able to nice this woman back 
despite the conflicting advice you are getting here.

Separations only help people get divorced.


----------



## jay1234

Buttpunch

Last month she admitted 1 year ago before the ILYBINIL confession she had an EA affair with a guy she meet on a night out. She admitted everything, she says, in the hope it would allow her to move on. 

She gave me his contact details. He lives in a different country. The EA lasted aprox 2 months. They did manage to meet up once after the initial contact when she was away on a 1 night business trip. She says they had sex only once. I sort of believe her as she never goes anywhere without the kids. (I know it was him because he is now stalking my wife and myself on facebook, linked in etc. We have both blocked him now)

Anyway I did detective work and it does seem they have not contacted each other in over 10 months. 

It gets me that she still blames me for the fact she was driven to have the affair.


----------



## ButtPunch

jay1234 said:


> It gets me that she still blames me for the fact she was driven to have the affair.


This statement is very telling.

You are not in any sort of reconciliation whatsoever.

I suspect she has a new suitor as well.

The separation will help her try him on for size.

Get the VAR. Start the 180. 

Explore the reasons why you would want to stay with a woman 
who does not love you and clearly emotionally abuses you.


----------



## Lostinthought61

jay1234 said:


> Buttpunch
> 
> Last month she admitted 1 year ago before the ILYBINIL confession she had an EA affair with a guy she meet on a night out. She admitted everything, she says, in the hope it would allow her to move on.
> 
> She gave me his contact details. He lives in a different country. The EA lasted aprox 2 months. They did manage to meet up once after the initial contact when she was away on a 1 night business trip. She says they had sex only once. I sort of believe her as she never goes anywhere without the kids. (I know it was him because he is now stalking my wife and myself on facebook, linked in etc. We have both blocked him now)
> 
> Anyway I did detective work and it does seem they have not contacted each other in over 10 months.
> 
> It gets me that she still blames me for the fact she was driven to have the affair.



just so we are clear it was not just an EA but a PA....they had SEX!!!!!!!....please don't accept that BS from her please stand up and tell her the she FU in this relationship and not blame you....she shoudl be the one you kick out Jay....freaking be a man about this...she is a cheater and she has to accept that label.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Dude, just file. How long do you intend to torture yourself? If she admitted once that means it happened 10 times. Just divorce her. She wants you to do the heavy lifting because it is your fault you worked hard to provide for your family so she had time to cheat. Divorce her. Stop suffering. She is not worth it.


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## Yeswecan

Consultation to come back to your own home? That is a hoot. Look, file for D.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

She cheated, she wants out, she should move. Immediately. Move back in and demand that she leave.


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## jay1234

Thanks Guys for your input but you are missing one fact. 

You cant help being in love with someone. I still love her and want the marriage to work. 

I believe there is still hope?
How best should I handle the in house temporary 2 week separation?


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## ButtPunch

jay1234 said:


> Thanks Guys for your input but you are missing one fact.
> 
> You cant help being in love with someone. I still love her and want the marriage to work.
> 
> I believe there is still hope?
> How best should I handle the in house temporary 2 week separation?


Codependency is not real love.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Real love is a 2 way street. You being in 'love' with her and her treating you like a doormat that she wipes off her shoes on is not real love. Wake up. She is cuckolding you, Using you for your money while she enjoys her ya yas with multiple others. Wake up.


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## 3Xnocharm

jay1234 said:


> Thanks Guys for your input but you are missing one fact.
> 
> *You cant help being in love with someone*. I still love her and want the marriage to work.
> 
> I believe there is still hope?
> How best should I handle the in house temporary 2 week separation?


This really doesnt matter... Sometimes, love is not enough! Your situation is one of those times. Stop bowing down to your cheating wife and get moving on a divorce. She is making it more than clear (everyone sees it but you) that she does NOT love you and does NOT want to be with you, so make the damn decision for her.


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## GusPolinski

Tell her that since she needs space she can leave.

And stay gone.

File for divorce ASAP.


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## ButtPunch

3Xnocharm said:


> This really doesnt matter... Sometimes, love is not enough! Your situation is one of those times. Stop bowing down to your cheating wife and get moving on a divorce. She is making it more than clear (everyone sees it but you) that she does NOT love you and does NOT want to be with you, so make the damn decision for her.


and sitting around waiting for her to come back to you will push her even further away

like it has done already

No woman wants a weak man

you need to start loving yourself again

and that starts with you not tolerating her bs


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## turnera

Look, when you showed some balls and left, she kinda sorta missed you. When you ran home cos it was too hard, she reverted back to despising you. See how that works? 

Women only respond to strength. It's in our DNA. Women have this mental thing where they fight for a man, like in caveman days, to see who gets picked by the big strong man who'll keep her from getting eaten. Nowadays we don't need physical strength; women are still attracted to strength - the mental kind.

As soon as she tells you she needs space - give it to her. Stop talking about relationship, blame, needs, or anything else. Start dressing better. Get a haircut. Start going out to hang out with your buddies. Wear some cologne. When she confronts you - and she will - just shrug and say 'you wanted space, I'm giving it to you. I'm not wasting time on a woman who jerks me around. Gotta go, there's a game on tonight' and leave. Fill those two weeks with activities. Invite your guy friends over to watch a game and drink beer. Take the kids to the library Saturday and leave her home alone. LET HER SEE what life without you is like.

Oh, and take the money out of whatever account she gets money from. Leave her $100. When she asks, tell her that since she's deciding she doesn't want this marriage, you're putting all the money into a savings account that will be dealt with in the divorce. And if she wants something, get a job; she'll have to anyway, once you're divorced.


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## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> Look, when you showed some balls and left, she kinda sorta missed you. When you ran home cos it was too hard, she reverted back to despising you. See how that works?
> 
> Women only respond to strength. It's in our DNA. Women have this mental thing where they fight for a man, like in caveman days, to see who gets picked by the big strong man who'll keep her from getting eaten. Nowadays we don't need physical strength; women are still attracted to strength - the mental kind.
> 
> As soon as she tells you she needs space - give it to her. Stop talking about relationship, blame, needs, or anything else. Start dressing better. Get a haircut. Start going out to hang out with your buddies. Wear some cologne. When she confronts you - and she will - just shrug and say 'you wanted space, I'm giving it to you. I'm not wasting time on a woman who jerks me around. Gotta go, there's a game on tonight' and leave. Fill those two weeks with activities. Invite your guy friends over to watch a game and drink beer. Take the kids to the library Saturday and leave her home alone. LET HER SEE what life without you is like.
> 
> Oh, and take the money out of whatever account she gets money from. Leave her $100. When she asks, tell her that since she's deciding she doesn't want this marriage, you're putting all the money into a savings account that will be dealt with in the divorce. And if she wants something, get a job; she'll have to anyway, once you're divorced.


QFT

This is a TAM masterpiece!


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## oldshirt

turnera said:


> Look, when you showed some balls and left, she kinda sorta missed you. When you ran home cos it was too hard, she reverted back to despising you. See how that works?
> 
> Women only respond to strength. It's in our DNA. Women have this mental thing where they fight for a man, like in caveman days, to see who gets picked by the big strong man who'll keep her from getting eaten. Nowadays we don't need physical strength; women are still attracted to strength - the mental kind.
> 
> As soon as she tells you she needs space - give it to her. Stop talking about relationship, blame, needs, or anything else. Start dressing better. Get a haircut. Start going out to hang out with your buddies. Wear some cologne. When she confronts you - and she will - just shrug and say 'you wanted space, I'm giving it to you. I'm not wasting time on a woman who jerks me around. Gotta go, there's a game on tonight' and leave. Fill those two weeks with activities. Invite your guy friends over to watch a game and drink beer. Take the kids to the library Saturday and leave her home alone. LET HER SEE what life without you is like.
> 
> Oh, and take the money out of whatever account she gets money from. Leave her $100. When she asks, tell her that since she's deciding she doesn't want this marriage, you're putting all the money into a savings account that will be dealt with in the divorce. And if she wants something, get a job; she'll have to anyway, once you're divorced.


GFT x 2


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## Laurentium

jay1234 said:


> Last month she admitted 1 year ago before the ILYBINIL confession she had an EA affair with a guy she meet on a night out. She admitted everything, she says, in the hope it would allow her to move on.
> 
> She gave me his contact details. He lives in a different country. The EA lasted aprox 2 months. They did manage to meet up once after the initial contact when she was away on a 1 night business trip. *She says they had sex only once.*


What do you mean, "EA"?


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## ABHale

jay1234 said:


> Wow thank you for all the reply's folks. I didn't expect such a response. So to answer some of your questions raised above:
> 
> The reason I apologised is based on advice from the UK online councillor Andrew G Marshall. His books on ILYB (I love you but Im not in love with you anymore) advise this and I could then see how many of the things I did drove her away i.e. prioritising other things above her, sex became infrequent, never going to her family events etc.
> 
> Its like she had an Epiphany that I never really loved her and she was a fool. Gradually she fell out of love with me.
> 
> I have no reason to suspect she is having an affair. She has the kids all the time unless I am with her. She does sometimes go out with her friends but i would often meet them out or of heard where they were and who was with them. I hate the idea if tapping her car. If she did that to me I would be so upset I would probably dump her. I dont want to give her any more ammunition.
> 
> Since this happened I have been prioritising her, kissing her every day, cuddling up to her, organising weekends away, organising dates, meals etc etc etc. Once she moved out I stopped all that as per the 180. She is back because I told her to come back because of the kids being unhappy and am continuing the 180. She does seem to of noticed and I guess this is why she is looking for the kiss goodby in the mornings.
> 
> So based on all your advice I wont suggest more counselling and continue the 180. One thing though is her biggest gripe was putting other things first and not being around. The 180 encourages putting other things first and not being around. I'm so confused.


Easy, put your kids first and be around them. 

Ask her if she is willing to fix the marriage. If not, 180 and focus on the kids. If yes, Find a good marriage counselor and slowly start what you were doing


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## ABHale

jay1234 said:


> Thanks Guys for your input but you are missing one fact.
> 
> You cant help being in love with someone. I still love her and want the marriage to work.
> 
> I believe there is still hope?
> How best should I handle the in house temporary 2 week separation?


She doesn’t and she is screwing others. 

Her cheating doesn’t surprise me at all. She has already checked out of the marriage. You still loving her isn’t going to make a damn bit of difference to her. She screw another man and shut down on you right after. 

Now is the time to start the 180 fully and file for divorce.


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## David51

jay1234 said:


> Buttpunch
> 
> 
> 
> Last month she admitted 1 year ago before the ILYBINIL confession she had an EA affair with a guy she meet on a night out. She admitted everything, she says, in the hope it would allow her to move on.
> 
> 
> 
> She gave me his contact details. He lives in a different country. The EA lasted aprox 2 months. They did manage to meet up once after the initial contact when she was away on a 1 night business trip. She says they had sex only once. I sort of believe her as she never goes anywhere without the kids. (I know it was him because he is now stalking my wife and myself on facebook, linked in etc. We have both blocked him now)
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I did detective work and it does seem they have not contacted each other in over 10 months.
> 
> 
> 
> It gets me that she still blames me for the fact she was driven to have the affair.



Sound to me that you are going to stay until she calls the police and has your removed from the premisses. Take it from me as I have been in your situation. She is going to divorce you, if you have been together more than 10 years she will go after a portion of your retirement, she will get the house, alimony and child support. I have a good friend who recently divorced and he and his wife are still friends but never the less he pays $2,000.00 per month in child support. You need to go get an attorney and get proof of an affair, if you can do that you willdo better monetarily in court regardless you will still pay a % of your income in child support but that is something you should do anyway.
Don’t be stupid!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chuck71

OP...... you give defiant people EXACTLY what they "think" they want.

For it never turns out as they anticipated. She admitted to sex.... are you willing to live with this?

She wants "control" but when you puppy dog back to her, she loses respect for you.

Counter-intuitive..... copy off D papers, sign it, leave it on kitchen table with pen.

You WILL get a reaction.

I'm new to this thread..... during your -misgivings- what exactly were they, in your words....

not hers? And.... a point not yet touched on.... what were hers? Or was she "golden lace?"

As stated, it's a two-way street..... it takes BOTH to make a M, and BOTH to destroy it.

There ain't no 100 / 0. And it's never 50 / 50. Always somewhere in the middle...


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