# Minimizing bad sex



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am writing this thread - because somebody needed to and there wasn't a long line of volunteers to jump into this emotional minefield. And that seems to be mostly for the usual reason - making it all about ourselves. Because if sex is bad for our partner - then we must be unattractive or bad in bed or some other terrible thing. And I will point out some gender patterns. Women with LD partners do not make a big fuss about how those partners orgasm every time. However, many men in sexless marriages claim that the experience is always great for their partner, she raptures every single encounter, etc. 

Much of the catalyst for this thread comes from the combo of:
1) The meme that sex is like pizza and ranges from good to great
2) The phenomenally high level of ego protective behavior related to our own sexual performance. Many of my data points come from women - married to guys who aren't great in bed and who dismiss or get defensive when given feedback. 

1) This is true if you combine male sexual equipment with a high drive. 
2) Between what I read on TAM and what a close friend told me - which was that he would instantly break up with any woman who didn't reach the rapture having sex with him - how safe does your partner feel telling you that the experience wasn't that good for them

I'm gonna add one more intro point which is: Just because it's always good for me, doesn't mean it's always good for you. And it would be kind of self serving for me to pretend that it does. 

I know what I do to minimize the potential for it to be a bad encounter for M2 - but I have begun to wonder what the rest of the world does. So what do the rest of you do?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

This will be an interesting thread. 

I am always curious to know about men in sexless marriages where their wife always enjoys and Os when they do. Even as a starfish without allowing foreplay. Seems odd to me. 

My ex gave me the "every other woman I've been with enjoyed it and didn't have any issues" when I needed better sex from him. Ego ruins the potential for better sex.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

It's all good now for my husband and me, but...should that ever change, I'd like to believe we could communicate this to each other. In a kind way ...no need to tell someone ''well, that sucked.'' I also think that no one should fake orgasms, just my opinion. That's where things can really become a problem, because maybe the guy feels his wife is enjoying every time they have sex, but she's just been faking it to spare his feelings. And it's especially sad for her too, if she doesn't feel she can share her thoughts with her guy in order to have a great sex life. We also have to think as women too, that just because a guy orgasms, that it was all that good for him. We can all orgasm alone, so just ''finishing'' isn't really saying if the sex was good or not.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

As for how I minimize bad sex or maximize the likelihood of good sex is 

No limits, no judgements, no ego and a lot of communication. We are contantly communicating without any negativity or judgement. It is a free zone where anything can be said or brought up. 

He has no ego issues with things like me wanting to try a toy larger than him or asking him to do something a little differently or whatever. 

And we have very, very few limits. Both of our no lists match and anything the other does want to try gets a "yes". We try it at least once. If it doesn't work, oh well. 
What's the worst that could happen if you just try it? 

We both love pleasing the other and neither of us ever feel like anything is one sided in one way or the other


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I can't claim to be completely ego-free, but I don't just assume greatness on my part, I don't get defensive about feedback and I am constantly working on self improvement.

Where my ego manifests is in my desire to be good. I have a need to believe my partner desires me and responds sexually.

The problem is my partner is not naturally demonstrative. I get little, if any feedback during, and next to none after. I get told she enjoys our sex life (infrequent though it may be) and that she's more than satisfied--but no specifics. (Except for an occasional rebuke if I do something wrong). I am discouraged from seeking feedback and completely forbidden from inquiring about Os. I'm told "sex should be natural" which is code for I don't want to work at sex-I'm happy enough with whatever happens "naturally."

Bottom line--I'd love a little feedback. Given the lack of frequency, I really have no reason to believe it's particularly good for her despite her assurances to the contrary. I have tried to say "you might want to do it more if you enjoyed it more, which, btw, would benefit you as well as me... and our marriage." There's no way I can say that without it coming across as pressure to perform, so it kills what little interest she may have. Full stop. Dead end.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The 'every other woman' line is a classic ego protective tactic. 

Ego protective behavior greatly increases the odds of UNACKNOWLEDGED bad sex. And that will eventually cause a frequency crash sure as day follows night. 




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This will be an interesting thread.
> 
> I am always curious to know about men in sexless marriages where their wife always enjoys and Os when they do. Even as a starfish without allowing foreplay. Seems odd to me.
> 
> My ex gave me the "every other woman I've been with enjoyed it and didn't have any issues" when I needed better sex from him. Ego ruins the potential for better sex.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deidre,
From the very start I liked how M2 just said what was true - without judgement or tone. 
- That feels good. 
- That feels good after I'm turned on. It feels bad before I'm turned on. 
- Sometimes that just doesn't feel good for no apparent reason - but when that happens I will say so

Partners figure out pretty fast if this is something you are doing TO them vs WITH them. 




*Deidre* said:


> It's all good now for my husband and me, but...should that ever change, I'd like to believe we could communicate this to each other. In a kind way ...no need to tell someone ''well, that sucked.'' I also think that no one should fake orgasms, just my opinion. That's where things can really become a problem, because maybe the guy feels his wife is enjoying every time they have sex, but she's just been faking it to spare his feelings. And it's especially sad for her too, if she doesn't feel she can share her thoughts with her guy in order to have a great sex life. We also have to think as women too, that just because a guy orgasms, that it was all that good for him. We can all orgasm alone, so just ''finishing'' isn't really saying if the sex was good or not.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have the same desire for it to be as good as possible for M2. 

It helps that I'm not competitive about it - because she's just naturally gifted in bed. 

She did teach me a couple nice games. 
1. Better one or better two (like when the optometrist is refracting you by swapping in different lenses)
2. I kiss/you kiss or I touch/you touch 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I can't claim to be completely ego-free, but I don't just assume greatness on my part, I don't get defensive about feedback and I am constantly working on self improvement.
> 
> Where my ego manifests is in my desire to be good. I have a need to believe my partner desires me and responds sexually.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Throw in some qualifiers and something very subjective all of a sudden becomes measurable.

First: Define sex in terms of purpose, be it spontaneous, date night, scheduled, bartered, duty, etc.

Second: frequency (self explanatory)

Third: participation and engagement

Fourth: physical characteristics such as duration, reciprocity, etc

And so on.

This set of kpi's maps into our own expectations and experiences, and the delta between the two is used to define an experience as "good" or "bad"...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> I have the same desire for it to be as good as possible for M2.
> 
> It helps that I'm not competitive about it - because she's just naturally gifted in bed.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately mine isn't "naturally gifted in bed." Which is probably part of her reluctance to try to talk about sex or try anything beyond the basics.

Without deliberately discussing it beforehand, we end up doing something very much like #2. #1 probably wouldn't fly.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> Throw in some qualifiers and something very subjective all of a sudden becomes measurable.
> 
> First: Define sex in terms of purpose, be it spontaneous, date night, scheduled, bartered, duty, etc.
> 
> ...


Oh, you romantic, you!


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am writing this thread - because somebody needed to and there wasn't a long line of volunteers to jump into this emotional minefield. And that seems to be mostly for the usual reason - making it all about ourselves. Because if sex is bad for our partner - then we must be unattractive or bad in bed or some other terrible thing. And I will point out some gender patterns. Women with LD partners do not make a big fuss about how those partners orgasm every time. However, many men in sexless marriages claim that the experience is always great for their partner, she raptures every single encounter, etc.
> 
> Much of the catalyst for this thread comes from the combo of:
> 1) The meme that sex is like pizza and ranges from good to great
> ...


Hmmm... I've had bad pizza.

Minimizing starts with ego... and extends to everything else.

When we were younger (30 years ago) I took it personal when I couldn't get EB2 there... total ego that was all about me regardless of her sharing "it was ok, don't worry about it".

Egos do that...

Much of the time is spent being worried and insecure when the body doesn't know what insecure means unless the mind tells it to react insecurely. EB2 doesn't come right out and say "I don't like that", it's usually a quick pull away or sudden "ow" that tells me it's been uncomfortable for awhile and then the moment is hard to recover from and everything becomes "ok, what do I do next" and second-guessing what I thought was nice enough before but she didn't want to tell me because I was seen as "having fun" when half the fun is her having fun.

It can be expected that an orgasm will come as long as you can immediately shift to acceptance when it doesn't. I think it is on the part of the partner who doesn't orgasm to initiate if they want to continue in a way that will get them there if desired. A caring partner will continue with patience, an ego driven partner may not, or with poor enthusiasm or "get 'er done" effort.

Age plays heck on the ego as well, especially when expectations don't align. 

All things change, especially with a decade between us... I've learned sensitivity decreases or pains come in for EB2 as the body shifts. Hard to find the "sweet spot" on a regular basis even with copious quantities of coconut oil, yet when the act gets to the nitty-gritty things magically happen. Sometimes patience works, sometimes it gets in the way... who knows when, where, or how that aligns although we are both wise enough to let the swinging from the chandelier expectations subside so neither ego gets bruised (along with other body parts).

A fine balance of not rushing it, then knowing when the time is right for a final crescendo... egos not included.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

That is a great list. Going biking but will reply in more depth later. 





john117 said:


> Throw in some qualifiers and something very subjective all of a sudden becomes measurable.
> 
> First: Define sex in terms of purpose, be it spontaneous, date night, scheduled, bartered, duty, etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks, MEM! I'll never be able to look at my optometrist the same, again. Should make the exam a lot more fun.


----------



## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I am minimizing bad sex by basically never initiating sex, because almost every time we have sex is bad. She just has too many rules, too many stop signs, etc. Just recently, she told me she doesn't like it when I touch her boobs until we're already having intercourse. There is no oral, either way. I'm not even allowed to "touch" her vagina, only with my penis. And now I'm not allowed to touch her boobs??? She has basically reduced foreplay to a light hand job to get me hard. I no longer worry about initiating sex, because honestly, it's not an enjoyable experience for me. But she makes sure we have sex roughly once a week, because she doesn't want to be one of THOSE wives. People say "you need to turn her on more... spend more time on foreplay... make sure she has an orgasm." The truth is she doesn't want to be turned on by me, she doesn't want me to give her an orgasm. Sex is something that she does because she thinks I still expect it. Truth is, I have given up on our sex life, I only go along with it to avoid a fight. She is only 31 (I'm 35), but ever since our youngest was born 4 years ago, it's been on a steady decline to what it is now. She used to be enthusiastic about sex daily, oral, even dabbled in anal sex. I do not believe her sex drive will ever come back. 

We have had the long, hard talks about this. She claims she wants to want to have sex. She seems frustrated that her libido is gone. She says she's going to try to work on it, and after that we'll have one really good session of sex, followed by a slightly above average time a few days later, and then after another week it's back to the same old same old. I don't wish to divorce her at all. If you could take away the concept of sex, we'd have a pretty happy marriage. Sex is basically the only thing we fight about. My kids are only 4 and 6, and I have ZERO desire to break up my family over sex. I have considered outsourcing sex, but I'm nowhere near ready for that. I haven't been with another woman since a couple weeks after I first got with my wife, 11.5 years ago. Sometimes I wonder, "am I really as bad at sex as she makes me feel?" She doesn't really give me the chance to prove myself. I feel like if for some reason I were to become single again, and start dating, I would be so bad at sex that I'd never get a 2nd date due to lack of experience. It's really hard for me. I have a VERY high sex drive. Sometimes I wish I could make it go away.

Edit: I have ruled out an affair. Believe me, I've looked into that thoroughly.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

john117 said:


> Throw in some qualifiers and something very subjective all of a sudden becomes measurable.
> 
> First: Define sex in terms of purpose, be it spontaneous, date night, scheduled, bartered, duty, etc.
> 
> ...


key performance indicators?

I think the PDSA could be reduced significantly!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1. Engagement / focus being fully present
2. Participation in terms of:
- amount of effort you each put into the mechanics of the experience
- how turned on you/they get
3. Pacing
- being as patient as need be with your partner getting turned on
- not making them feel rushed/are we done yet
4. Affect
5. Style - desired degree of aggression edge 






john117 said:


> Throw in some qualifiers and something very subjective all of a sudden becomes measurable.
> 
> First: Define sex in terms of purpose, be it spontaneous, date night, scheduled, bartered, duty, etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Patience- yes!! 

If I could send a message to like... 95% of the men I have slept with is take your time. Do not go right to the naughty bits. Prolong foreplay, whole body touching and kissing. Make it part of the whole event and not just what you do to get her turned on enough so you can piv. 

Most of the men had the same process. Kiss for a bit, some neck kissing maybe, then breasts and then vagina. Either to just get it wet or until I O then PIV. It's like they are getting my needs over with quickly so they can get to their part.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Just admitting that it does not have to be amazing every time goes a long way. Good sex (or for this thread, not bad sex) is good enough. 

On a more micro level and only occasionally if it’s generally good, don’t be afraid to shift the focus or even stop all together if things aren’t working out. Try again another day, soon. The corollary is sometime it’s better to not even start. Wish I followed that yesterday, I had a horrible and stressy day and she wanted to relax me, that didn’t work out.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I want amazing sex every time. Too many "meh" sex times makes me lose interest. If I had an ok night the last night I'd be less in the mood to try again. If it was amazing I think about it all day and can't wait for it again. I get hooked on great orgasms like an addiction. Good orgasms I could take it or leave it. Great ones I need and crave and would go any distance I had to to get them


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's the physical side. 

The problem is that for many people there's also a huge emotional side that has to be triggered, good sex or bad, once a day or once a month. 

Think of what the meaning of it is the morning after. If it's a meaningful experience, or a one night stand. It's about how you feel about the big picture, and whether the experience was conducive or disruptive or neutral.

Cold pizza always tastes good the morning after.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I think many men don't know much about good sex, but I also think that is true for women. I know as a society we don't talk much about realistic sex and sexual response men learn from other uninformed men and porn. Women don't learn much at all or from romance novels where a virgin orgasms in like 3 minutes of PIV.

I also think even happily married couples find it hard to discuss these issues which leads to unhappiness. Women often times fake it. I think to spare their SO feelings or because they think something's wrong with them. I think many women don't really know what a GOOD orgasm is like. So how can they tell their partner? I also read in here often when men ask their wives what they need to do the wives don't know. I know if women were having the kind of orgasm that spasms your whole body and makes it hard to breathe that you stay aroused after that for a good ways and mentally your ready for more of those. How to get there?

The flip side is if you don't get there or haven't been there in a long time then sex is just pleasant. Assuming you aren't annoyed with your partner or missing sleep. You see sleep is important to a stressed out tired overworked mother. And pleasant isn't enough to want to miss it. Mind blowing is worth an hour of sleep. Some men not only want us to miss sleep for pleasant but to be enthusiastic and BJ to miss it.

I love the explanation that we should want to do it to please our man. I read the perfect response if you weren't getting an O often sex just wouldn't be that important anymore either. The people that say Os aren't important to women and we just like the connection are lying. If that were true there wouldn't be so many LD women. Many times sex is made a chore, the man needs this (see starfish), the man wants enthusiasm ( see low frequency I'm already tired today), I must enjoy it ( see I'll fake it) the man wants it and I must give head enjoy it and O quickly ( sigh too much pressure I'm out).

How do we get there from here? What if both spouses aren't comfortable talking about it? What if talking makes my situation worse? I love my spouse and don't want to hurt their ego. 

I do believe for women being able to want sex starts emotionally in our head. If we are really stressed or pissed it's not something we can usually set aside for sex. I also think foreplay to one woman isn't the same as another. My husband meets my emotional needs daily so if he's rubbing my shoulder for foreplay I'm just thinking get to the good stuff where others find that offensive. I think it is also intent. My husband rubs my naughty bits to give me pleasure to bring me to O. Not just so he can go through the motions and get to PIV. I know the biggest hurdle for me to get to really good sex was being ok with taking longer to O. Letting him 'work' longer without feeling like it was bad and one sided not letting the word starfish kill my mood. Don't get me wrong I'm not a star fish but even 5 minutes of only receiving was mentally uncomfortable which of course stops the O in its tracks. But once I started with good O and that drove my libido way up it was obvious he enjoyed THAT more than the extra work bothered him ( didn't for the most part bother him). I also found the more intense long lasting Os made me want to touch him more, please him more, more often too, made me start to feel guilty that he just had quick little Os and not the kind that made your legs jelly and stole your breath. If we go for too long without sex then I'm not as eager because the body just isn't turn on as much as it is with continual pleasure that's where responsive desire comes in. As he starts his magic it takes a little longer to get really in the mood but it does come.

I'm sure not every woman is the same but I believe the biggest gaps in men and women's sexual desire comes from women not having emotional needs met, not knowing how to accept pleasure without guilt or what true pleasure is, and men not bringing their women to true orgasm and add women faking it so the men don't know.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Well said Anastasia. 

On a similar note, I think the reason why 50 shades became so popular is not the pain part of sex but that she had to let go of all her worries and anxieties and being in her head and just let him please her. 
She didn't have to be the good girl who was a sl*t if she was enjoying herself. No matter how much we try to get out of that thinking, it is ingrained in us to not be sexual people. It's very hard to get out of that. 

I thought I was a very sexual person but in order to be ok with just receiving and being selfish in my desire for an amazing orgasm, I needed to give up all my control around it. 

And once I did, it all shed and I got out of my head and let my body just enjoy and it is amazing.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some bad sex could be eliminated if more people (men and women) realized that an O != "good sex". I think an O is necessary, but not sufficient. Simply knowing the mechanical things that get your partner off are not enough to make things good - you need to know what they enjoy. That can be as much or more mental than physical - the attitudes and "atmosphere" can be more important than what body part is touched when.

People also have to realize that these things change - someone may one time want long slow romantic lovemaking in a candle-lit room, and another time a quickie bent over the kitchen table, and maybe the next time the handcuffs and riding crop come out.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yep yep 

O does not mean good sex for either gender. 

I think a lot of people assume that just because their partner had an O that is was enough. 

And yes to knowing what they enjoy and enjoy doing it. Don't huff out a "fine" and do it as a chore. Get into it. Love it. Put your 100% into trying to enjoy and making it positive when you try something new that your partner wants.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Sometimes I fake O. I never thought I would be that person, but now I am. It's so much easier just to pretend than it is to explain. 

Or rather, I tried explaining, but my husband thinks that what we do is foreplay. That it doesn't matter if it isn't always great. That only the same formulaic mechanics are required.

It might be me who is the ego protective one though. I've tried to be that best lover for him, but got no feedback that indicated that I was having any success. So I guess I've given up altogether. I'm old. I'm ugly. What's the point?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You are not old or ugly. You're an awesome person deserving of good sex and a good partner


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well said Anastasia.
> 
> On a similar note, I think the reason why 50 shades became so popular is not the pain part of sex but that she had to let go of all her worries and anxieties and being in her head and just let him please her.
> She didn't have to be the good girl who was a sl*t if she was enjoying herself. No matter how much we try to get out of that thinking, it is ingrained in us to not be sexual people. It's very hard to get out of that.
> ...


I know fifty shades helped better mentally be able to enjoy. That book should be required reading. ?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

What a marvelous post. So filled with relevant observations.



anastasia6 said:


> I think many men don't know much about good sex, (for many of us, if that is so, it's not for lack of trying though) but I also think that is true for women (some women are as resistant to suggestion and as easily as ego bruised as men). I know as a society we don't talk much about realistic sex and sexual response men learn from other uninformed men and porn (I have always tried to seek information from reputable sources, and my wife is totally reluctant to help me learn). Women don't learn much at all or from romance novels where a virgin orgasms in like 3 minutes of PIV.
> 
> I also think even happily married couples find it hard to discuss these issues which leads to unhappiness. Women often times fake it. (I now 100% for a fact, my wife doesn't fake it. Not because I have some delusion her responses are real, but because she gives me precious little response at all. She is not demonstrative and as such, I have little way of knowing from the act itself, whether or not she's getting anything out of it.) I think to spare their SO feelings or because they think something's wrong with them. I think many women don't really know what a GOOD orgasm is like. (Seems likely here--if she was getting really good ones, she might have been a little more interested over the last couple decades--her conclusion is that it is what it is so there can be no more, so why try for something she's sure doesn't even exist) So how can they tell their partner? I also read in here often when men ask their wives what they need to do the wives don't know. I know if women were having the kind of orgasm that spasms your whole body and makes it hard to breathe (this is the sort of description that raises my blood pressure. If I could go to bed at night knowing that was just hyperbolic BS rather than reality, I could be at peace with our lackluster sex life. Because she doesn't have those, she's 100% convinced they don't exist and anybody who says so is lying. So she sleeps easy while I lie awake all night lamenting what were missing) that you stay aroused after that for a good ways and mentally your ready for more of those. How to get there?
> 
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I am of the belief that if you are not satisfied with your sex life and your partners participation in that sex life and you don't stay something or try to help them make it better. You are the one who sucks in bed. 

I want my partner to want me to be the best, but I can't read her mind. Sure I can get some signals but like anything else it takes practice and work. Can't do that alone. 

Bottom line you are responsible for your own orgasm first and foremost. I want my partner to want orgasm. 

Now it's different when you DO say something and your partner is just lazy.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

anastasia6 said:


> I know fifty shades helped better mentally be able to enjoy. That book should be required reading. ?


Oh but it's so badly written. 

Googling bdsm stories is a much better method. 50 shades was just more mainstream but man, I can't get through the first few pages and I'm in a bdsm relationship. 

The movie sucked too. I won't even bother with the second. 

But the idea around bdsm and mentally letting go is a great one for many women. It's just too bad the first really mainstream book for it was written like a high schooler.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rocky Mountain. I can tell you I thought my sex life was good until a little while back when I simply couldn't breath or move and just had to lie there and twitch. Took me 30 years to find it.

Slowly going. Most women don't actually find BSMD the draw in fifty shades. I think the two or three things that is the draw.
One being tied up not for the sake of tying but the release of responsibility to participate at that moment. Which goes with number two
He genuinely wants to please her he enjoys it it isn't something he does to get sex himself.
Three he knows what he's doing (and takes the lead) the only thing she has to be vocal about is if something isn't ok. It may not be right but women are very shy about saying I want this.
Ok fourth he does lots of his pleasing without a penis cause in reality the penis often times isn't enough or doesn't last long enough. How oh how do you tell your partner whom you love that their prized possession isn't enough?

Fifty shades is its own fantasy I don't think it sold fifty million copies because we all want to be hit with a riding crop. It's because we want guilt free earth shattering sex where we aren't the director. BTW. She isn't a starfish either she participates and pleases.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And Anastasia gets the golden ticket for an exceptionally insightful response. 




anastasia6 said:


> I think many men don't know much about good sex, but I also think that is true for women. I know as a society we don't talk much about realistic sex and sexual response men learn from other uninformed men and porn. Women don't learn much at all or from romance novels where a virgin orgasms in like 3 minutes of PIV.
> 
> I also think even happily married couples find it hard to discuss these issues which leads to unhappiness. Women often times fake it. I think to spare their SO feelings or because they think something's wrong with them. I think many women don't really know what a GOOD orgasm is like. So how can they tell their partner? I also read in here often when men ask their wives what they need to do the wives don't know. I know if women were having the kind of orgasm that spasms your whole body and makes it hard to breathe that you stay aroused after that for a good ways and mentally your ready for more of those. How to get there?
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,

This stuff surely can be painful. Last year I was depressed for a while (4+ months) about M2's low desire levels/O rates etc....

Aging gracefully - isn't easy.




wild jade said:


> Sometimes I fake O. I never thought I would be that person, but now I am. It's so much easier just to pretend than it is to explain.
> 
> Or rather, I tried explaining, but my husband thinks that what we do is foreplay. That it doesn't matter if it isn't always great. That only the same formulaic mechanics are required.
> 
> It might be me who is the ego protective one though. I've tried to be that best lover for him, but got no feedback that indicated that I was having any success. So I guess I've given up altogether. I'm old. I'm ugly. What's the point?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, getting to the point of can't move and just laying there twitching is my O is amazing and the only times I can is when I have no control and no say. 

I do enjoy a bit of the pain part as well but even then it's all mental. I lose all my inhibitions and worries and fears and just put him in charge. 

There is a lot more him giving and various ways to please me than any of my vanilla relationships. His getting off is very low on his priority list during that time.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I doubt you are either old or ugly. You need someone who cares about your pleasure, and who's you care about. You need someone who understands that sex may not work perfectly every time, but when it doesn't, takes what they learned and makes it better next time.

I think its very sad when women have to fake, because that way their partners can't learn what they enjoy. Of course if those partners aren't interested, then there is no good solution anyway.






wild jade said:


> Sometimes I fake O. I never thought I would be that person, but now I am. It's so much easier just to pretend than it is to explain.
> 
> Or rather, I tried explaining, but my husband thinks that what we do is foreplay. That it doesn't matter if it isn't always great. That only the same formulaic mechanics are required.
> 
> It might be me who is the ego protective one though. I've tried to be that best lover for him, but got no feedback that indicated that I was having any success. So I guess I've given up altogether. I'm old. I'm ugly. What's the point?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EB,

M2 had slowly worsening pain and finally said
- it hurts a lot sometimes when we do that
- I didn't want to say, because I didn't want you to leave me

There's a scene in the movie Tommy Boy - where David Spade hits Chris Farley in the head with a 2x4. It felt kind of like that. 

So she knows that I don't want a lag between discomfort or pain and saying so. 

M2 endured a lot of bad sex - from anxiety about pain and then actual pain. 




Emerging Buddhist said:


> Hmmm... I've had bad pizza.
> 
> Minimizing starts with ego... and extends to everything else.
> 
> ...


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In my book, "Bad sex" is the unexcited woman just "laying there looking up like some kind of a blow-up doll" variety!

Let's just say that masterbation shows far more empathy!*


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I try to read her responces. How shes breathing, are her breast blushing nipples hard, is she wet and getting wetter , i will give oral until she begs me to stop,

I wil ask if she desires anything I'm not already doing . 

But she give responces like no your good I like it just the way you a8re doing it.and is shy about reciprocation. 

I can last a fair bit but holding my orgasm off can mean that I won't orgasm there is a fine line and while I don't mind if it happens but I am alittle disapointed if that happens.

I think I could improve my aproach . Start flirting in the morning and throughout the day have a build up of sexual tension.

BUT I have done that only to be shot down because of some little thing that went wrong during her day one to many times and let me tell you if you put a days worth of effort building sexual tension and then get shot down because her coworker pissed her off then it sucks big time.


And if there not much reciprocation during sex then resentment builds.you get sick of pressing her bottons when thet never try pushing yours.

I know I have heard all the advice about if they think your just dpoing itor sex it don't work.

So my question is if its not in my nature to do these things but I do them because i know she desires them shouldn't she do the same.

So resentment builds an then ai stalemate happens .

I'm startin to wonder if it just that we are not compatible .


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

@abastasia6,
Thanks for the additional input. 



anastasia6 said:


> Rocky Mountain. I can tell you I thought my sex life was good until a little while back when I simply couldn't breath or move and just had to lie there and twitch. (again with the maddening imagery!) Took me 30 years to find it.
> 
> Slowly going. Most women don't actually find BSMD the draw in fifty shades. I think the two or three things that is the draw. (just for the record, my wife thinks the book is silly, ridiculous, unrealistic fiction with no possible relevance to her whatsoever. She can't believe any woman would like it, let alone millions)
> One being tied up not for the sake of tying but the release of responsibility to participate at that moment. Which goes with number two
> ...


 Would love to be the director there. Really, this is the only hole in my life. I have been successful in two careers now with the current one going exceptionally well. We have enough money we will never have to worry about it. We have successfully raised three wonderful children. I am respected in a couple non-work communities (my hobby and my volunteering). This may sound like a lot, but I am very high energy and even more efficient, so doing all this has never prevented me from spending more than the requisite amount of quality time with her. So I believe I have been a successful husband as well, and she says the same, regularly telling me how wonderful I am. _Just that one not so insignificant piece missing ...._



All that said, and even though I really feel like I've already tried pretty much everything that's been suggested, you and SGC continue to spark my natural optimism (another of the qualities that my wife loves).


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

podiumboy said:


> I am minimizing bad sex by basically never initiating sex, because almost every time we have sex is bad. She just has too many rules, too many stop signs, etc. Just recently, she told me she doesn't like it when I touch her boobs until we're already having intercourse. There is no oral, either way. I'm not even allowed to "touch" her vagina, only with my penis. And now I'm not allowed to touch her boobs??? She has basically reduced foreplay to a light hand job to get me hard. I no longer worry about initiating sex, because honestly, it's not an enjoyable experience for me. But she makes sure we have sex roughly once a week, because she doesn't want to be one of THOSE wives. People say "you need to turn her on more... spend more time on foreplay... make sure she has an orgasm." The truth is she doesn't want to be turned on by me, she doesn't want me to give her an orgasm. Sex is something that she does because she thinks I still expect it. Truth is, I have given up on our sex life, I only go along with it to avoid a fight. She is only 31 (I'm 35), but ever since our youngest was born 4 years ago, it's been on a steady decline to what it is now. She used to be enthusiastic about sex daily, oral, even dabbled in anal sex. I do not believe her sex drive will ever come back.
> 
> We have had the long, hard talks about this. She claims she wants to want to have sex. She seems frustrated that her libido is gone. She says she's going to try to work on it, and after that we'll have one really good session of sex, followed by a slightly above average time a few days later, and then after another week it's back to the same old same old. I don't wish to divorce her at all. If you could take away the concept of sex, we'd have a pretty happy marriage. Sex is basically the only thing we fight about. My kids are only 4 and 6, and I have ZERO desire to break up my family over sex. I have considered outsourcing sex, but I'm nowhere near ready for that. I haven't been with another woman since a couple weeks after I first got with my wife, 11.5 years ago. Sometimes I wonder, "am I really as bad at sex as she makes me feel?" She doesn't really give me the chance to prove myself. I feel like if for some reason I were to become single again, and start dating, I would be so bad at sex that I'd never get a 2nd date due to lack of experience. It's really hard for me. I have a VERY high sex drive. Sometimes I wish I could make it go away.
> 
> Edit: I have ruled out an affair. Believe me, I've looked into that thoroughly.


What? You get a handjob?


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I doubt you are either old or ugly. You need someone who cares about your pleasure, and who's you care about. You need someone who understands that sex may not work perfectly every time, but when it doesn't, takes what they learned and makes it better next time.
> 
> I think its very sad when women have to fake, because that way their partners can't learn what they enjoy. Of course if those partners aren't interested, then there is no good solution anyway.


Oh, I don't have to fake. I just do sometimes because it's easier. 

It's complicated to explain, but my husband has a lot of health issues, and with that comes ED. I've worked very hard to overcome it, but it's .... exhausting. And makes it so that sex is mostly about him. Add to that his decreased interest and possible feelings of inadequacy ... and well, we're not doing a very good job of minimizing bad sex. At least, IMHO. He claims to have no complaints.


----------



## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

23cm said:


> What? You get a handjob?




Your marriage sounds an awful lot like my first marriage kids and all. Same deal with the wife except I was 31 and the was a bit younger than you at 34. Beautiful woman and hard to be around with out sex. But it was just like you describe so I won't bother. We had many talks and then one day I had enough. It was Friday I came home from work jumped in the shower and went out. Had a couple beers with friends danced with a couple women actually got a name and phone#. Anyway no hanky panky but I got home around 2 AM and there was a pillow and blanket waiting for me on the sofa. Next morning I wake up to an angry woman and I welcomed that. I kept my cool and told her exactly what i did and told her I had a blast and I planned on going out again that night. She was steamed ......long story but I did go out and I did have a good time again. Sunday the wife packs the kids off to her parents and when she gets home she wants to talk. I gently told her that I was done talking one thing led to another and bang we are headed to divorce court. Honestly it was the best thing that for both of us. She wasn't going to change and I needed more than she was willing to give. Today I am happy and remarried sex is frequent but what I realized I needed even more than sex was the kissing and touching that I had not been getting before. Everyone deserves affection hood luck but remember The One That Cares the Least is the One with the Power.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bulked up the list below. 


0. Initiation (can set a really good or bad tone)
- Who initiates 
- How enthusiastic is the response to an overture

1. Engagement / focus being fully present
- Are interruptions firmly brushed off or
- Are they seized upon as an excuse for cancelling the proceedings 

2. Participation in terms of:
- amount of effort you each put into the mechanics of the experience
- how turned on you/they get

3. Pacing
- being as patient as need be with your partner getting turned on
- not making them feel rushed/are we done yet

4. Affect

5. Style 
- desired degree of aggression edge / dominance
- pain

6. Acceptance of your partners level of desire/arousal/orgasm (or not)

7. Acknowledgement of any major gap in experience quality - if you come like a freight train and they don't come at all. This is a situation where missteps are common and often very hurtful


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> So what do the rest of you do?


This is an interesting topic. The main step to minimizing bad sex for me was to first learn how to accept and embrace moments in a positive way that for whatever reason become awkward or unpleasant. No one is perfect, no one can expect things to be perfect, and sometimes things just don't go the way you desire and hope. 

Then you have to appreciate how and why your spouse seeks validation during intimacy is likely going to be very different from that of your own. In my opinion I think most people want validation to be "shared" and "exchanged" in the same manner. As in if you desire your spouse, you want to know they desire you back in the same way at the same time. Well sometimes that happens, but in reality it works more like yen and yang in a complimentary way:

I enjoy desiring my wife, and she enjoys being desired. 
I enjoy telling my wife that I love her, and she enjoys pretending not to hear so that I repeat myself.
I enjoy seeing my wife confident, and she enjoys feeling empowered by my confidence. 

So if I got into the mantra of most spouses on TAM of "wanting to be wanted" you can see that would quickly spell disaster based on the dynamics of how my wife and I validate each other. If I waited for her to tell me she loves me first and that she wants me, doing so would likely serve just to make her feel unwanted.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## kirwinjd (Aug 8, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am writing this thread - because somebody needed to and there wasn't a long line of volunteers to jump into this emotional minefield. And that seems to be mostly for the usual reason - making it all about ourselves. Because if sex is bad for our partner - then we must be unattractive or bad in bed or some other terrible thing. And I will point out some gender patterns. Women with LD partners do not make a big fuss about how those partners orgasm every time. However, many men in sexless marriages claim that the experience is always great for their partner, she raptures every single encounter, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well like the old saying: Sex is like a pizza. Even the first slice of a bad one is good to a starving person. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,

Maybe twice or thrice a year we have a conversation about - how long it's been since we had PIV. She mainly wants reassurance that I'm not mad/bitter/resentful. Which - I'm not - so it's a short easy convo. 

Eventually - stuff breaks as we age. It's helpful when your partner is gracious about it. 






wild jade said:


> Oh, I don't have to fake. I just do sometimes because it's easier.
> 
> It's complicated to explain, but my husband has a lot of health issues, and with that comes ED. I've worked very hard to overcome it, but it's .... exhausting. And makes it so that sex is mostly about him. Add to that his decreased interest and possible feelings of inadequacy ... and well, we're not doing a very good job of minimizing bad sex. At least, IMHO. He claims to have no complaints.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh but it's so badly written.
> 
> Googling bdsm stories is a much better method. 50 shades was just more mainstream but man, I can't get through the first few pages and I'm in a bdsm relationship.


I have not read it. Everyone I have talked to indicates that it is not a BDSM story but a story of abuse. Except the one woman who said it was too vanilla for her.


----------



## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Bad sex is our sex life. The Mrs. and I are feeling very stressed out outside our marriage and she told me she simply has no emotional energy for what I would term good sex.

So about once every 1.5 weeks we have sex. Lights out, missionary, but with a bit of energy, just to satisfy our needs. 

I have been limiting this more of late as I am trying to manage my sex drive, desires, etc. The Mrs. and I had a couple of talks a few months ago. I was frank and honest. This is were she told me she has no energy for any sex beyond the very basic. 

Now she is frustrated with me because we are not connected. I know I am not perfect and could be a better husband, but it will take time for me to reconcile duty sex with my desires and happiness.

Not sure what she expected. Here is your duty sex. Why are you not entertained? Because I am bored silly and I need to manage my desires in a healthy and productive way.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have not read it. Everyone I have talked to indicates that it is not a BDSM story but a story of abuse. Except the one woman who said it was too vanilla for her.


I had a conversation about with with friends in the bdsm community and they all thought it was a horrible example of healthy, consensual Bdsm but that hopefully it would spring people into researching it more. 

The movie was so vanilla i could have watched it with the kids in the room. I was all excited, had a me night with some snacks and I could barely finish it.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Deidre,
> From the very start I liked how M2 just said what was true - without judgement or tone.
> - That feels good.
> - That feels good after I'm turned on. It feels bad before I'm turned on.
> ...





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Patience- yes!!
> 
> If I could send a message to like... 95% of the men I have slept with is take your time. Do not go right to the naughty bits. Prolong foreplay, whole body touching and kissing. Make it part of the whole event and not just what you do to get her turned on enough so you can piv.
> 
> Most of the men had the same process. Kiss for a bit, some neck kissing maybe, then breasts and then vagina. Either to just get it wet or until I O then PIV. It's like they are getting my needs over with quickly so they can get to their part.


OK, I have to provide an alternate point of view. I have learned over the years that my wife has LD and I have HD. Let me repeat that. My wife is LD. She loves me, she wants sex with me maybe once a week give or take a little. I need sex more often to be emotionally connected to her.

I have tried every magic bullet, sex technique to make sex as good as possible for her, but.......she is LD. Through the help of s Sex therapist that saved our marriage we have negotiated to having sex twice a week. Something she can live with and something I can live with.

Sometimes on the second time during the week I can get her to orgasm, some of the time I can't. Again, she is LD. It is not responsive desire that when she gets warmed up she wants sex, it is that she just doesn't want sex as often as I do. No about of mental stimulation, no amount of "proper foreplay" no amount of moving slowing in building arousal is going to make her want to have sex more often. SHE IS LD. That doesn't mean she is broken and needs to be fixed. It just means that she is LD.

It has been a very hard lesson for me to learn. Still she loves me and she wants to make our marriage strong, which is why she will have sex with more frequently than she would prefer. She knows it is important to me, she loves me and she wants me happy and feeling loved and cherished by her.

Some people are just LD and will always be LD. They could have the most skilled lover in the world and they will be LD. If their spouse is HD and they want to marriage to last, then they will need to compromise so that both get what they need out of the marriage. David Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) talks a lot about the importance of "self soothing" so that you can do things your spouse wants you to do that you don't want to do. He also talks a lot about compromise and negotiation in marriage.


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I made a thread on this topic awhile back, and still haven't been able to navigate my way out of it....



anastasia6 said:


> * I know as a society we don't talk much about realistic sex and sexual response men learn from other uninformed men and porn. Women don't learn much at all or from romance novels where a virgin orgasms in like 3 minutes of PIV.*


Yep, this was what I expected from the beginning. 



> *Women often times fake it. I think to spare their SO feelings or because they think something's wrong with them. I think many women don't really know what a GOOD orgasm is like. So how can they tell their partner? *


Yep. It wasn't until my kids were born that I stopped faking O's and started actually wanting to have good sex for myself. The problem now is, I don't know what that looks like and I don't know how to get there. How do you teach your spouse to do something when you have no idea what you are doing yourself, or what would feel good or how to touch you? I don't feel that it is fair to expect or ask for something if you cannot be specific about what you need or want. I will not set another person up for failure. In this way, I protect HIS ego even though he doesn't ask me to. I don't want to see him get frustrated or add pressure into the situation, because that ruins it for me. I would not be able to willingly participate in any experiments with him if there was a chance that they could fail or cause him to have any bad feelings. 

I need his unwavering confidence in order to relax and try to enjoy it, and he needs to know I am experiencing pleasure in order to have that confidence. We are locked into a feedback loop that I do not know how to change. 



> *The flip side is if you don't get there or haven't been there in a long time then sex is just pleasant. Assuming you aren't annoyed with your partner or missing sleep. You see sleep is important to a stressed out tired overworked mother. And pleasant isn't enough to want to miss it. Mind blowing is worth an hour of sleep.*


Right now my H and I live in a demanding time of our lives and sleep is a precious commodity. Sex is not usually worth giving up my sleep over. I've never had the type of sex that is better than a good night's sleep. Most of the time I follow the mantra already stated in a previous post- "better to not even start". I firmly believe that this fact is a reflection on ME rather than my partner. This has been my experience across every partner I've ever had, and what's the common denominator in that equation - me!

I believe that I am frigid and unable to O like the majority of women can. I also take medication that impacts my sexual response and makes it even more difficult. I waffle between wanting to change the situation, and seeking acceptance of it for what it is. My motivation to work on it waxes and wanes. Most of the time I talk myself out of any motivation that hits me and convince myself it would be counterproductive to my marriage to make an issue out of this. 



> *Many times sex is made a chore, the man needs this (see starfish), the man wants enthusiasm ( see low frequency I'm already tired today), I must enjoy it ( see I'll fake it) the man wants it and I must give head enjoy it and O quickly ( sigh too much pressure I'm out).
> 
> How do we get there from here? What if both spouses aren't comfortable talking about it? What if talking makes my situation worse? I love my spouse and don't want to hurt their ego.*


This falls under the comment - "better to not even start". I am analytical by nature and will always do a quick pros/cons list in my head, effort expended vs reward received. The cons list usually adds up quickly with all of the items mentioned above and that's the easiest way for me to think "I'll pass". 




Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> OK, I have to provide an alternate point of view. I have learned over the years that my wife has LD and I have HD. Let me repeat that. My wife is LD. She loves me, she wants sex with me maybe once a week give or take a little. I need sex more often to be emotionally connected to her.
> 
> I have tried every magic bullet, sex technique to make sex as good as possible for her, but.......she is LD. Through the help of s Sex therapist that saved our marriage we have negotiated to having sex twice a week. Something she can live with and something I can live with.
> 
> ...


All this is very true and important but if I was in your shoes I wouldn't consider it good/great sex. 
I would put it in the 'enough to live with because it's someone you love and everything else is great' basket. Which is fine if both people are happy with it. A compromise is a good solution sometimes. 

Sometimes you can't have or give great sex because of your partner so I get it that this whole list is great advice, if you have a partner who has a drive enough to participate in it.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> EB,
> 
> M2 had slowly worsening pain and finally said
> - it hurts a lot sometimes when we do that
> ...


It's the dynamic subtlety of change for one partner that seems the overnight static awareness from the other.

The body does shift with age and with men it is usually centered around the simplicity of "does it work or doesn't it"?

Women's bodies are more, well, complex is the only word I can come up with. Physically detailed with many more variables without even considering the necessary emotional connections that make up this beautiful arrangement.

EB2 knows I cannot guess if what worked last time will work this time and when the moon and stars don't align for her I'll ask her to set it up for her to find that happy zone and simply enjoy it without worrying if I am getting much out of it (I always do). If she gets there first, she is much more relaxed and that itself leads to happier outcomes when it's my turn.

Although EB2 hasn't come right out and said it, I think she too feared my needs taking me other places (affairs, ONS, new BMW's), perhaps in the last year this has subsided and it's funny to say, we have age on our side (although the new Beemer did happen) but in the end I believe she is learning to trust the trust that led me to fall in love with her all over again.

With love comes caring about what the long road brings even if ridden at 100+mph at times.

Desire... I love desire as part of the human experience, but to respect and be aware of it's awesome power is so much more important.

Our good choices with our partners depend on it.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

kag123 said:


> In this way, I protect HIS ego even though he doesn't ask me to. I don't want to see him get frustrated or add pressure into the situation, because that ruins it for me. I would not be able to willingly participate in any experiments with him if there was a chance that they could fail or cause him to have any bad feelings.
> 
> I need his unwavering confidence in order to relax and try to enjoy it, and he needs to know I am experiencing pleasure in order to have that confidence. We are locked into a feedback loop that I do not know how to change.



This is interesting to me. Does it have to be a "lets try this new thing to see if it works any better" situation?
Could you frame it as 'oooh hubby, I saw a thing I wanna try tonight!" and then if it doesn't work, laugh it off or "you know, I actually kind of liked the first part a bit, maybe do more of that! The end and middle stuff not so much" 

Keep it all light and like you're both coming up with fun things together. 

"OMG babe, I saw this sex positions site. We have GOT to do this one" or "I've been really craving taking a nice bubble bath with you, candles, maybe get me all warmed up and rub my back (wink wink)" if you want to try more slow and sensual stuff but don't want to say "Hey, dude I need more time here. Wanna try a little romance with your foreplay?"



All that said, I think you have a normal drive and normal sexual response and orgasm needs as any woman. Nothing about what you have said in the past it outside the box of average and normal in anyway.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> All this is very true and important but if I was in your shoes I wouldn't consider it good/great sex.
> I would put it in the 'enough to live with because it's someone you love and everything else is great' basket. Which is fine if both people are happy with it. A compromise is a good solution sometimes.
> 
> Sometimes you can't have or give great sex because of your partner so I get it that this whole list is great advice, if you have a partner who has a drive enough to participate in it.


Typically once a week, she and I have very good sex. While she is very inhibited, the two sex positions she will do, when she wants to, she can rock my world and curl my toes. More often than that is sometimes just too much for her to totally enjoy. But she is LD and I am HD. Compromise is good. 

This thread was titled Minimizing bad sex. If there were no love in the sex the second time during the week, not having it might minimize bad sex. Sex for most of us in not an end in itself, but is a way to emotionally connect with someone. For me sex is about bonding and feeling close to my wife. But when she gives me the gift of her body and she actively wants to pleasure me, its not bad sex, just one sided sex, but two sided love.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jade,
> 
> Maybe twice or thrice a year we have a conversation about - how long it's been since we had PIV. She mainly wants reassurance that I'm not mad/bitter/resentful. Which - I'm not - so it's a short easy convo.
> 
> Eventually - stuff breaks as we age. It's helpful when your partner is gracious about it.


I'm trying very hard to be gracious! But sometimes I fail miserably at it.

Ego, you know.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I will not set another person up for failure. In this way, I protect HIS ego even though he doesn't ask me to. I don't want to see him get frustrated or add pressure into the situation, because that ruins it for me. I would not be able to willingly participate in any experiments with him if there was a chance that they could fail or cause him to have any bad feelings.
> 
> I need his unwavering confidence in order to relax and try to enjoy it, and he needs to know I am experiencing pleasure in order to have that confidence. We are locked into a feedback loop that I do not know how to change.


BTDT, under different circumstances. You’re setting yourself, if not both of you, up for failure. I get the feedback loop thing too well, but his ego is his and doesn’t need you protecting it. I know it’s difficult. Really honest and open communication is so important. And then it took me a leap of faith to eventually really get it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Young,

Your approach allows that second time to NOT be a bad experience for her. It might only be ok - but it isn't bad. 

Largely because:
- she knows you are making it as good as possible for her 
- you aren't pressuring her to give you a false ego boost by pretending to be more turned on than need be / pretending to O

Those two things are big, big things. 






Young at Heart said:


> OK, I have to provide an alternate point of view. I have learned over the years that my wife has LD and I have HD. Let me repeat that. My wife is LD. She loves me, she wants sex with me maybe once a week give or take a little. I need sex more often to be emotionally connected to her.
> 
> I have tried every magic bullet, sex technique to make sex as good as possible for her, but.......she is LD. Through the help of s Sex therapist that saved our marriage we have negotiated to having sex twice a week. Something she can live with and something I can live with.
> 
> ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> As for how I minimize bad sex or maximize the likelihood of good sex is
> 
> No limits, no judgements, no ego and a lot of communication. We are contantly communicating without any negativity or judgement. It is a free zone where anything can be said or brought up.
> 
> ...


Going on the heels of this post... I/ we relate to some of this (communicating it all openly.. and both desiring to please the other)... but still... I have wanted to TRY MORE things that my husband seems incapable of going there with me.. my fantasies are MORE, I am just more of an EROTIC over him.... I have complained he is too Gentle in bed... we've had fights over sex that I have started.. then I feel badly ....because so much is RIGHT and beautiful at the same time! --if that even makes sense... as emotionally speaking.. and orgasmically ....I've always been sexually satisfied... 

In these areas... we both long for the same, getting caught up in each other.. we call it the "highlight of the day"... we both see masturbation as hollow.... long for our hands on each other, welcome being woke up any time the other is even a little hungry, it's always invited..it's like I "get him" as he "gets me".. His body is mine.. mine is his....

The Orgasm...for him...I don't see it as EGO as much as it's being tied to US experiencing pleasure together...it's an intimacy thing for him...

I may have caused some fights over the years, this is true.... why he has been able to look past these so easily is : I am also very validating, very enthusiastic -for his body...heck I want him!! If I feel on the mountain top 
during/ after sex.. I have a need to share this.. how much it all means to me.. what he does to me.. ..it washes all the other away.

Every fight we have had.. we had make up sex afterwards anyway... that's just our way.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

kirwinjd said:


> Well like the old saying: Sex is like a pizza. Even the first slice of a bad one is good to a starving person.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not true at all for me. If I'm starving for sex and it's bad, I'm still starving. In fact, I'm even more hungry. And pissed off.



Young at Heart said:


> Some people are just LD and will always be LD. They could have the most skilled lover in the world and they will be LD. If their spouse is HD and they want to marriage to last, then they will need to compromise so that both get what they need out of the marriage. David Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) talks a lot about the importance of "self soothing" so that you can do things your spouse wants you to do that you don't want to do. He also talks a lot about compromise and negotiation in marriage.


I am willing to compromise, but not when it comes to sex. I need a passionate lover with compatible kinks and a high sex drive. If I were married to a LD man who was willing to have sex more than he desired in order to meet my needs, he wouldn't be able to meet my needs. Willing just isn't enough. Not even close.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maybe it is context of a recent conversation I had that makes me think of this while reading this thread. I was talking to a guy who was getting divorced. Lack of sex. Cuz that never happens! He made a comment about wanting a woman who loved sex. He always tried to please his wife. And he spoke of different positions, activities... And then said well men's performance is largely mechanical. Um, no.

The thing I think I never see MEM saying is do this thing with your hand or do that activity to stimulate the whatever body part. He talks about speaking to the most important sex organ, the brain. Patience. Environment management, trust development. Without those, the rest cannot follow.

Hope I am not too off base here.


----------



## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is context of a recent conversation I had that makes me think of this while reading this thread. I was talking to a guy who was getting divorced. Lack of sex. Cuz that never happens! He made a comment about wanting a woman who loved sex. He always tried to please his wife. And he spoke of different positions, activities... And then said *well men's performance is largely mechanical. Um, no.
> *
> The thing I think I never see MEM saying is do this thing with your hand or do that activity to stimulate the whatever body part. He talks about speaking to the most *important sex organ, the brain. Patience. Environment management, trust development. Without those, the rest cannot follow.*
> 
> Hope I am not too off base here.


"mechanical" Ummm NO. Certainly not by midlife? 

Agreed, 100%. Every couples' dynamic is different, but understand how to flip my switch _*mentally*_ first and foremost, and you'll get earth-shattering results, multiple times. The not so-great-sex is definitely minimized with that approach.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed, but its not something everyone knows, and many people never get an opportunity to learn. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is context of a recent conversation I had that makes me think of this while reading this thread. I was talking to a guy who was getting divorced. Lack of sex. Cuz that never happens! He made a comment about wanting a woman who loved sex. He always tried to please his wife. And he spoke of different positions, activities... And then said well men's performance is largely mechanical. Um, no.
> 
> The thing I think I never see MEM saying is do this thing with your hand or do that activity to stimulate the whatever body part. He talks about speaking to the most important sex organ, the brain. Patience. Environment management, trust development. Without those, the rest cannot follow.
> 
> Hope I am not too off base here.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Agreed, but its not something everyone knows, and many people never get an *opportunity *to learn.


That's true, I suppose, if you wait for opportunities to happen to you rather than generate or develop them.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think someone who ends up with a partner who also thinks sex is just physical may never have the opportunity to learn.

Another thought: There is a lot of variation in people's sexual interests, I wonder if sex IS just physical for some people. That is really is just about the mechanics. I could swear that is the case for my wife - she seems to have no interest at all in atmosphere, just in what I physically do. (believe me, I've tried). 




NobodySpecial said:


> That's true, I suppose, if you wait for opportunities to happen to you rather than generate or develop them.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think someone who ends up with a partner who also thinks sex is just physical may never have the opportunity to learn.


What one already thinks has exactly zero with learning new things and the opportunity to do so.



> Another thought: There is a lot of variation in people's sexual interests, I wonder if sex IS just physical for some people. That is really is just about the mechanics. I could swear that is the case for my wife - she seems to have no interest at all in atmosphere, just in what I physically do. (believe me, I've tried).


I would hate to be locked in a box of what I already think/feel/experience as if it is fixed in stone. I would be signing up for Alzheimer's right now. Do you perceive growth and development is impossible in all facets of life or just sex?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

One thing I see over and over and over again on the my wife doesn't want sex variations on this board is a totally defeatist attitude that nothing can ever happen differently. I wonder if that sentiment is also the case in other areas of spousal negotiation? Things like "hard wired" or "think that" seem to be used as an excuse to remain stagnant. It is genuinely weird to me.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Growth is possible for me in lots of areas. My wife can grow and change when she has an interest in doing so.




NobodySpecial said:


> What one already thinks has exactly zero with learning new things and the opportunity to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> I would hate to be locked in a box of what I already think/feel/experience as if it is fixed in stone. I would be signing up for Alzheimer's right now. Do you perceive growth and development is impossible in all facets of life or just sex?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It may be that the experience of living with a true LD person is difficult to imagine if you haven't experienced it. 

Imagine if your partner were gay. Could they grow and change to enjoy sex with you? I think being LD is as innate as orientation. 






NobodySpecial said:


> One thing I see over and over and over again on the my wife doesn't want sex variations on this board is a totally defeatist attitude that nothing can ever happen differently. I wonder if that sentiment is also the case in other areas of spousal negotiation? Things like "hard wired" or "think that" seem to be used as an excuse to remain stagnant. It is genuinely weird to me.


----------



## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

uhtred said:


> It may be that the experience of living with a true LD person is difficult to imagine if you haven't experienced it.
> 
> Imagine if your partner were gay. Could they grow and change to enjoy sex with you? I think being LD is as innate as orientation.


You are probably right uhtred. We're very lucky in that my husband and I are fairly equally matched with regards to libidos. Being on TAM has made me realize just how yes, LUCKy it is to be compatible in that dept, although I do think growth, development, and education come into play with regards to a fulfilling sex life. He mentioned early in our relationship (college) that one of the things he found attractive was my genuine enjoyment and appreciation for sex. I was happy to find a guy that wasn't intimidated (or viewed me negatively!) for something I truly loved and wanted to develop over the years. 

When I became more LD and "responsive desire" due to child-rearing, careers, life...we would joke "quality over quantity". Our frequency definitely took a hit, but fortunately it was never "bad sex".


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> It may be that the experience of living with a true LD person is difficult to imagine if you haven't experienced it.


What is a "true ld person" and how does one recognize what is "true"? I certainly looked like it at the beginning of our marriage. Had my husband assumed that that is just the way I was, I would never have known differently. 



> Imagine if your partner were gay. Could they grow and change to enjoy sex with you? I think being LD is as innate as orientation.


Ok. It may well be. But I also think it can obfuscate other things. How do you know? It certainly is a whole lot easier to just assume it is drive rather than the more complicated social conditioning and attitudes of our lives, isn't it?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> We have had the long, hard talks about this. She claims she wants to want to have sex. She seems frustrated that her libido is gone. She says she's going to try to work on it, and after that we'll have one really good session of sex, followed by a slightly above average time a few days later, and then after another week it's back to the same old same old.


 @podiumboy: I do not say this to hurt you, but I think you are engaging in the "ego protective" thoughts and behaviors that @MEM2020 warns about.

I think, for your wife, you do not have any really good sessions. I think you have one sessions where, because you just had the talk, your wife is able to pretend very well that the session is good for her. And then you have another session a few days later where she pretends not quite as well, because the talk was farther in the past and you recently has sex and continuing to pretend becomes more difficult for her. And then you are back to her not being able to pretend any more, so the sex goes back to being the "same old, same old" - which is sex that is not good for her.

Hey, I feel your pain. I don't think I have ever had sex where it was good for my partner. Which is why I no longer have any partner sex. Which hurts. A lot. Which is why most people do anything and everything in their power to refuse to accept it might be happening.

I don't think your wife is prepared to explain to you what would make sex good for her. Maybe she doesn't know. Maybe she knows but doesn't believe you would be willing to do it. Maybe she knows and also knows you are not physically capable of doing it (a very bitter pill for both of you - which may be why, having already tasted it, she is trying to spare you from experiencing that pan - which is actually a loving gesture on her part even if it does not seem that way to you and even if it is a short term solution to a long term problem).

If you want the truth, you have to create an environment where your wife feels safe and comfortable admitting the truth. From your posts, I do not see you having created that environment for your wife. Hey, I didn't either for a long time and I understand it is difficult to create. But you do not want to follow in my footsteps. So my advice is to choose a different path.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> One thing I see over and over and over again on the my wife doesn't want sex variations on this board is a totally defeatist attitude that nothing can ever happen differently. I wonder if that sentiment is also the case in other areas of spousal negotiation? Things like "hard wired" or "think that" seem to be used as an excuse to remain stagnant. It is genuinely weird to me.


You detect a defeatist attitude because some of us have been well and truly defeated. Every person has their own limit on how much effort they are willing to invest in solving a problem. Once you reach that limit as regards fixing a broken sex life, you either divorce or adopt the defeatist attitude that it cannot be fixed. Might be true. Might not. But once you have reached the limit on how much you are willing to invest to find out, you will never know.

I choose to remain stagnant because I don't want to pay the price for my freedom to find another partner. Nothing difficult to understand about that. Having decided to stay, I have also decided that continuing to bang my head against the wall of sexual incompatibility just causes my forehead to hurt and doesn't resolve the incompatibility.

And note I am not blaming my wife for the incompatibility. I accept that my wife might be LD with me because I have a tiny penis and terrible technique. You might be the type of person who would take that information and scour the world for information on how to have better technique. I take that information and decide that learning new techniques my wife is never going to allow me to try on her is not only pointless it just piles more frustration and resentment on the already imposing mountain. Since I am not leaving, I try to avoid adding to the mountain.

You would probably decide to leave. You are much wiser than I am.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> You detect a defeatist attitude because some of us have been well and truly defeated. Every person has their own limit on how much effort they are willing to invest in solving a problem. Once you reach that limit as regards fixing a broken sex life, you either divorce or adopt the defeatist attitude that it cannot be fixed. Might be true. Might not. But once you have reached the limit on how much you are willing to invest to find out, you will never know.


I totally feel badly for people in this situation. BUT. And I have no idea who fits this category... but there are people on this board who have repeated ineffective things and rejected potentially effective things until their limit is exceeded. That just seems to bad to me since they are then forced into a really unhappy decision. Pooh on that.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I totally feel badly for people in this situation. BUT. And I have no idea who fits this category... but there are people on this board who have repeated ineffective things and rejected potentially effective things until their limit is exceeded. That just seems to bad to me since they are then forced into a really unhappy decision. Pooh on that.


I agree. Before any male gives up, he should hit the gym, rock it at work, do more to offload chores (if he has been negligent), or get a life outside the marriage (if he has been too much a puppy dog nipping at her heels), get both of them to a sex therapist, read NMMNG and MMSL, buy some Viagra, and put his ego aside and see if there is anything he can do to make sex more enjoyable for his wife. And if he has tried all that, then he can conclude that a better sex life with this particular woman is unavailable and he must decide whether he is willing to divorce over less than satisfying sex.

It is a long list. But not an infinite one. And, as with most worthwhile accomplishments in life, involves an investment of time, effort and will. Not every man will make it to the end of the list before giving up. I agree, giving up before working at least partway down the list is foolish and self-defeating.

I can tell you , though, that having gone through the entire list, I don't feel proud or accomplished. I feel well and truly defeated. So I cannot in good faith tell men that it is always worthwhile to exhaust every potential remedy in hopes of finding a cure. And I also feel confident that men who feel the pull of giving up early are probably not wrong when they imagine that they may find it difficult to locate a woman who wants lots of passionate sex with him. Those of us who are not "go down fighting" types tend not to be as attractive to females.

So guys who tend to give up early may be absolutely correct in their assessment that what he has is lousy but he might not be able to do better.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Talk to her a lot about sex.

Encourage her a lot to talk to me about sex.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> Not true at all for me. If I'm starving for sex and it's bad, I'm still starving. In fact, I'm even more hungry. And pissed off.
> 
> *I am willing to compromise, but not when it comes to sex.* I need a passionate lover with compatible kinks and a high sex drive. If I were married to a LD man who was willing to have sex more than he desired in order to meet my needs, he wouldn't be able to meet my needs. Willing just isn't enough. Not even close.


My two cents.

I know about starving for sex. I think I understand what you are saying. I was willing to end my marriage of 40+ years when there was No Sex. 

One of the things I often read on this website is that outside of the lack of sex people often say their marriage is just fine, or that they would never divorce their spouse because of the kids. 

At a Gottman Art and Science of Love weekend, my wife and I learned about what we shared in common in terms of life goals, ethics, financial goals, shared hobbies, memories, etc. The first day of the weekend focused on all the positive things in the marriage. Most marriages that have lasted a while have some positive aspects. I would hope that the spouse you find or have found adds more to the marriage than just a high kinky sex drive.

To me marriage is more than just sex. Sex is important, but marriage is a lot more than just sex or counting orgasms.

In Chapman's 5 languages of love book, none of the 5 love languages are sex. Touch as defined by Chapman is not sexual touch, but hugs, holding hands, skin on skin, pats on the back or shoulder, etc. Chapman shows a person how to feel loved and cherished through their love languages. If you are feeling loved and cherished in a marriage, are proud of your spouse, have kids, share many values and dreams with your spouse, and getting a minimal amount of sex then you might be able to live a happy life.

David Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) talks about HD and LD couples and points out that there is no correct amount of sex in a marriage, just like there is no correct amount of chocolate ice cream that should be eaten each week or no correct amount of professional football TV watching per week. It is all about compromise and that amounts of chocolate ice cream, football, and sex per week can change as the couple has children, is busy with outside activities, and as they age. He also stresses that you need to negotiate and compromise on just about everything in a marriage, including sex and sexual frequency.

So while you may indeed need an HD sex partner, be careful as your partner might view you as the LD member of your team or at some point in the aging process you loose your drive and become the LD partner. 

Good luck and we all get to make choices in life.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is the trick. How can you tell that they are true LD? I think this is part of the trap - the HD person may spend a tremendous amount of time trying to find out if there is something that can be changed. Years. Decades. When can you be sure that there is no situation that will make the LD want sex. 

Its usually not simple. The LD doesn't say "I don't like sex". At least in my case my wife says "I like sex, its just that XYZ means that we can't tonight". XYZ is always at least partially true. Sometimes there is sex. Sometimes there is even good sex. Its just that somehow the frequency of good sex is very very rare. 

Its not constant. There are periods of weeks, even months when things improve. There are long gaps with none at all.

Then there are all the things to consider trying. Romantic settings? Maybe dinner and cuddling on the sofa watching a movie isn't romantic enough. Was an anniversary in Venice not enough? Or maybe she really was too tired from jet lag. 

Should I "man up"? How much? I'm not a complete wimp - I am a pretty serious hiker and a pilot ,and have a good job. Should I work out at the gym and learn to alligator wrestle? Maybe.

Am I bad in bed? Lots of women enjoy different things - read, try to see if there is something physical I can do.

Am I just not her type? See who she seems attracted to in movies - seems to be roughly my type - though the attraction never seems sexual.

Too little housework? Too much?

Time goes by. Meanwhile the rest of the marriage works well. The energy barrier to leaving gets higher. Not just the fairly minor practical issues, but the difficulty of leaving someone you have been with and loved for years, then decades.


Knowing what I know now, I would have recognized the situation very early. But 35 years ago there was no internet. I'd never seen a discussion of varying levels of sexual interest. I assumed that if the situation was right, everyone enjoyed sex. Knew that some women were uncomfortable about sex before marriage. 


I think different people follow different paths to end up in this sort of relationship. 








NobodySpecial said:


> What is a "true ld person" and how does one recognize what is "true"? I certainly looked like it at the beginning of our marriage. Had my husband assumed that that is just the way I was, I would never have known differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. It may well be. But I also think it can obfuscate other things. How do you know? It certainly is a whole lot easier to just assume it is drive rather than the more complicated social conditioning and attitudes of our lives, isn't it?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Special,
The only time I ever address technique is in the context of a game M2 taught me. Should would touch me a certain way and ask better one, and then some variation on the touch (harder, softer, faster, slower, finger nails instead of finger tips, etc...) and ask or better two? Like how the optometrist gets to your ideal glasses prescription. We play that game with each other now and then. And for us - this game isn't just for sexual touch. 

But then - I always push folks to get really good at non sexual touch. And to do that touch without an agenda. 

That way your partner associates your touch with good/happy feelings. Not tense or irritated feelings. 

Reason why it's so easy to work with M2's responsive desire is that she likes it when I touch her because I've made an effort to get good at that. If she had a negative association with touch - that would badly damage our sex life. 





NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe it is context of a recent conversation I had that makes me think of this while reading this thread. I was talking to a guy who was getting divorced. Lack of sex. Cuz that never happens! He made a comment about wanting a woman who loved sex. He always tried to please his wife. And he spoke of different positions, activities... And then said well men's performance is largely mechanical. Um, no.
> 
> The thing I think I never see MEM saying is do this thing with your hand or do that activity to stimulate the whatever body part. He talks about speaking to the most important sex organ, the brain. Patience. Environment management, trust development. Without those, the rest cannot follow.
> 
> Hope I am not too off base here.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> One of the things I often read on this website is that outside of the lack of sex people often say their marriage is just fine, or that they would never divorce their spouse because of the kids.
> 
> At a Gottman Art and Science of Love weekend, my wife and I learned about what we shared in common in terms of life goals, ethics, financial goals, shared hobbies, memories, etc. The first day of the weekend focused on all the positive things in the marriage. Most marriages that have lasted a while have some positive aspects. I would hope that the spouse you find or have found adds more to the marriage than just a high kinky sex drive.
> 
> To me marriage is more than just sex. Sex is important, but marriage is a lot more than just sex or counting orgasms.


When I hear people say things like "Other than the lack of sex our marriage is great!" I think "Other than the giant hole in the bottom this is an awesome water bucket!" 

The difference between lovers and friends is sex. People tend to look for their tribe. We gravitate toward others like ourselves. I share common interests, life goals, ethics/morals, hobbies and many years of memories with my friends. I share all that and more with my husband. If we stripped away the sexual attraction and the sex, the "and more" would disappear and he'd be a friend. We could be friends without being married to each other.

If age, accident, or illness takes away our ability to have sex, we've agreed to meet each others needs manually, orally, with toys, etc.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Life is full of trade-offs. Often that means accepting things you don't like in order to get other things that you do. 






MJJEAN said:


> When I hear people say things like "Other than the lack of sex our marriage is great!" I think "Other than the giant hole in the bottom this is an awesome water bucket!"
> 
> The difference between lovers and friends is sex. People tend to look for their tribe. We gravitate toward others like ourselves. I share common interests, life goals, ethics/morals, hobbies and many years of memories with my friends. I share all that and more with my husband. If we stripped away the sexual attraction and the sex, the "and more" would disappear and he'd be a friend. We could be friends without being married to each other.
> 
> If age, accident, or illness takes away our ability to have sex, we've agreed to meet each others needs manually, orally, with toys, etc.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Growth is possible for me in lots of areas. My wife can grow and change when she has an interest in doing so.


Meh. Ok. Your choice. You may be just another one of the dudes who wants whine about their unsatisfactory sex life assuming he can know the outcomes of formerly untried activities. I don't say that in a mean or nasty way, though no doubt that will be your take away. We just see it here all the time. 

Poster: I talked to her a few times. 
Respondent: Have you tried x, y, z?
Posters: Ignores possible helpful suggestions in favor of repeating the discussions that did not work as if s/he had done "everything".

It is not what I would choose. I would rather KNOW that I am less important than my partner's desire to watch reality tv so I could make an informed choice.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> *That is the trick. How can you tell that they are true LD? I think this is part of the trap - the HD person may spend a tremendous amount of time trying to find out if there is something that can be changed. Years. Decades. * When can you be sure that there is no situation that will make the LD want sex.
> 
> Its usually not simple. *The LD doesn't say "I don't like sex". At least in my case my wife says "I like sex,* its just that XYZ means that we can't tonight". XYZ is always at least partially true. Sometimes there is sex. Sometimes there is even good sex. Its just that somehow the frequency of good sex is very very rare.
> 
> ...


I agree with so much of what you have written. 

There is just one thing that in my experience I take issue with. 

My LD wife does like sex. In fact she really loves sex and orgasms, just not anywhere near as often as I do. That is why she is LD. Some LD women really do like sex.......just not that often.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> ....The difference between lovers and friends is sex. People tend to look for their tribe. We gravitate toward others like ourselves. I share common interests, life goals, ethics/morals, hobbies and many years of memories with my friends. I share all that and more with my husband. I*f we stripped away the sexual attraction and the sex, the "and more" would disappear and he'd be a friend.* We could be friends without being married to each other.
> 
> If age, accident, or illness takes away our ability to have sex, we've agreed to meet each others needs manually, orally, with toys, etc.


To me there is a huge difference between marriage and "friends with benefits."

Part of that difference is commitment and shared love. Love to me is much different than friendship or friendship+sex.

I do think that sex is very important to marriage and to love.

Thank you for sharing your comments, I just think that we have different frameworks.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Uhtred
.........the HD person may spend a tremendous amount of time trying to find out if there is something that can be changed. Years. Decades. When can you be sure that there is no situation that will make the LD want sex.*

I totally agree!

There is a concept related to behavior analysis. When someone wants something they usually try or work harder. In this case lets say a motivator is money and a teen and you want to hire him/her. 

Situation 1
You are an employer and the teen is a stock person. The teen has a low IQ so the reward might be money, clothes, a food s/he likes. The first hour you reward the teen with a 5 cent token almost every time they complete x items in Y time. After a while they have to do xx items in Y time. Surprisingly, this reduced reward influences the teen to step up production or quality. At this point the teen still has un-met needs. Several days go by and now the reward is only given after xxxxxx items are completed and the time is still the same. If you would have rewarded every x the teen preformed, the teen would have had so many rewards in reserve, there wouldn't be any motivation to improve and actually the teen might quit working all together because they had everything in that area they wanted. The other problem is if the reward is with held until 10xs happen, then the reward payout is so low the teen becomes less interested in the job and quits caring about the reward.

I used to work with low IQ people to help them get and keep jobs, so I know the above process works but the reward or MOTIVATOR is an individual thing and no 2 people are alike.

Situation2
The employee has a job that pays $20 an hour. The employee senses the job is not secure or business is poor so s/he works a little harder hoping to maintain a certain wage or reward. After working harder/smarter, putting more effort into towards the job and there are no improvements s/he resorts to new behaviors hoping some of the new behaviors will result in some job security or income. This renewed effort can happen several times. 

The process of decreasing the reward often causes people to be more addicted to the job or an activity and it works the same way in relationships. How many times do we read about "trickle truth" hurts more than getting the truth all at one time.

At the beginning, reducing the reward actually increases the receivers motivation to do more or try harder. This is why people gamble. Places from county fairs, local casinos and big casinos know this and that is why they occasionally allow a gambling machine to "pay out," This concept of not rewarding very often is called "the rule of "intermittent rewards." It is a strong motivator.

With some normal or high IQ people, getting a reward too often causes them to feel guilty or to lose respect, miss trust the person that is doing the reward or think the re-warder is stupid. It is a tricky area, OK?

Maybe 5 or 10 years go by and there is no improvement in this persons income or job satisfaction and it feels like s/he gives more than s/he gets from the job. At some point of increased effort and reduced benefits, there comes a point where the decreased rewards become not worth the effort. At this stage the behavior analysis term is called, "the extinguishing point. In other words, why bother, it isn't worth the effort.

Regarding sex, crumbs or starfish sex=(decreasing rewards at first leads to try harder) at first usually makes the HD person work harder at obtaining what s/he wants. After some effort and time the effort isn't worth the reward, then the person has reached the extinguishing point. 

BTDT. If anyone is at the extinguishing point, just know you are normal.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

For me if sex goes, everything else starts getting sucked into the big black hole that it's loss created. Having a fun conversation, wanting to spend time together, cuddling in bed, holding hands, then it turns into resentment about all kinds of other things. I'm grumpy without sex and if someone didn't show they wanted me in that way I would start not wanting them in any way. Not to watch tv with or go on an adventure with. 

Me and my bf discussed it a lot. If sex goes, we go because it just slowly kills everything else around it until there's too much resentment to ever fix it. We both expect active, mutual sex with a number of add ons (ie oral for both) that we have agreed on. 

There would be no marriage that is great except for no sex because nothing else would feel great without also having great sex


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The thing is, there are an almost unlimited number of suggestions, its impossible to try them all. Some of us have tried a lot. What I've tried:

Patience - maybe it will take time for her to become comfortable with sex.

Romance - lots of directions to go here. Everything from flowers to love notes to dinner dates, to romantic vacations. Lots of time spent exploring this.

Doing one's part around the house: Done (I do at least 1/2 the chores).

Having a good job: done (I'm paid well an I'm considered a world-class expert in my field)

Having interesting hobbies: done (pilot, mountain climbing). 

Being physically attractive, both in body, and clothing: Within my limits, done. Not Adonis but I'm OK looking and dressing. 

Learning how to please a woman in bed: Think so - unless she has been faking. I've certainly read a lot and know the theory. 

Romance / non-sexual touch / foreplay: done

Trying new things in bed: Limited only by what she wants. I'm up for pretty much anything.

Making desires clear: done

Providing consistent love and affection even without sex :done

Being socially active with lots of outside activities: done. 

Withholding affection without sex:done

Showing that other options are available: Should be pretty clear to her, there are a couple of women who are pretty obviously interested in me

Making dissatisfaction clear, along with specific needs: done

Initiating regularly: done - almost always turned down

Not initiating: done

Aggressively initiating: Done - of course stopping at any clear "no". (I"m not planning to rape my wife despite some suggestions in that direction). 

Agreeing to specific frequency: Done - but of course ignored very quickly. 

Watching erotic movies: she doesn't want to.

Not done:

Hitting the gym: Here I'm convinced that she doesn't appreciate a muscular physique and I'm not going to that much time / effort to try to get sex since it doesn't interest me personally. 

Threatening Divorce: I don't want sex under threat. That isn't success.

Negotiating / trading for sex: Not interested.

Changing by basic personality: Nope. I'm me, not going to pretend to be someone else.

Dirty talk: Its very obvious she doesn't like this.

Counseling: This is the one big one that I haven't done. It's worth serious consideration. 

Divorce: Yes I could. Overall though, I'm probably happier married to my wife than I would be divorced and finding someone else. 


So, when I "give up" its after decades of trying a huge number of things. I may not have tried *everyone's* favorite ideas, but I've tried a lot. 



If you haven't lived in this situation its difficult to imagine. 










NobodySpecial said:


> Meh. Ok. Your choice. You may be just another one of the dudes who wants whine about their unsatisfactory sex life assuming he can know the outcomes of formerly untried activities. I don't say that in a mean or nasty way, though no doubt that will be your take away. We just see it here all the time.
> 
> Poster: I talked to her a few times.
> Respondent: Have you tried x, y, z?
> ...


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If sex goes, we go because it just slowly kills everything else around it until there's too much resentment to ever fix it.


Absolutely. BTDT to an extent, except we did turn it around in time. I too don't get the "everything else is great", everything else freaking sucked.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The thing is, there are an almost unlimited number of suggestions, its impossible to try them all. Some of us have tried a lot. What I've tried:
> 
> ... snipping list
> 
> So, when I "give up" its after decades of trying a huge number of things. I may not have tried *everyone's* favorite ideas, but I've tried a lot.


I am sorry nothing you have tried "worked". I am curious where you got all these ideas. None (sorry...edit most) of them look like things that are (edit) NOT likely to have any improvement on sex life. I wonder if you got ideas from people who know about relationships like the authors mentioned or counselors. I guess you are considering it.



> If you haven't lived in this situation its difficult to imagine.


But I have. Haven't I? Just from the other end of the equation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding,
I respect the effort you put into this. I disagree with your main premise which is divorce or acceptance of celibacy.

No one has ever even come close to convincing me that: monogamy is an absolute commitment with no associated responsibility. 

That would be like me saying - hey - you said 'for richer and for poorer' - so I'm quitting my job the day after the honeymoon and I'm not going back to work. 





Holdingontoit said:


> I agree. Before any male gives up, he should hit the gym, rock it at work, do more to offload chores (if he has been negligent), or get a life outside the marriage (if he has been too much a puppy dog nipping at her heels), get both of them to a sex therapist, read NMMNG and MMSL, buy some Viagra, and put his ego aside and see if there is anything he can do to make sex more enjoyable for his wife. And if he has tried all that, then he can conclude that a better sex life with this particular woman is unavailable and he must decide whether he is willing to divorce over less than satisfying sex.
> 
> It is a long list. But not an infinite one. And, as with most worthwhile accomplishments in life, involves an investment of time, effort and will. Not every man will make it to the end of the list before giving up. I agree, giving up before working at least partway down the list is foolish and self-defeating.
> 
> ...


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> The thing is, there are an almost unlimited number of suggestions, its impossible to try them all. Some of us have tried a lot. What I've tried:
> 
> 
> .....*Having interesting hobbies: done (pilot, mountain climbing).*
> ...


Congratulations on your "done" list. 

What saved my marriage was a number of things, including counseling with a great Sex Therapist. 

My wife did not want to go as she said she was not broken and did not need to be fixed. I read to her from David Schnarch's book that everything in marriage has a high demand and low demand component and needs to be a matter of compromise. Just as there is no amount of chocolate ice cream or professional football TV watching per week, there is no right amount of sex. I told her that I didn't feel she was broken and that the sex therapist would not as well. The ST would help us figure out if a compromise was possible.

That allowed her to go with me to the counseling sessions. The Sex Therapist we had was very good at listening and reading between the lines. She was also a no nonsense person. The ST got my wife to think about the logical outcome in many years of no sex in the marriage. The ST asked my wife what would likely happen. My wife avoided answering that question for a long time, but finally the ST kept pushing in different ways and my wife finally had to admit that we would probably get divorced. 

The ST asked me if I had thought about divorce. I said yes I had, that I had researched the State laws on divorce and promised myself that by a certain date I was going to be in a loving and sexual relationship with a woman and I wanted that woman to be my wife. If my wife couldn't provide me with a loving sexual relationship, I would end the marriage. Until then I would do anything to try to save it.

That was the first time my wife really understood (on a conscious level) how close to divorce she was. Later she asked me about all the times I said I loved her. I told her I do love her and will always love her for all the years we shared together and that she was the mother of our children. She asked but how could you divorce me over something as unimportant as sex, when you love me. I told her sex was not unimportant to me.

The point of this is that you may have made your needs clear in your mind, but she may not have understood the seriousness of the situation. Please try counseling as a way of getting through to her.

Good luck.

I suspect you and I share a lot of similar experiences because our wives are similar.


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> Congratulations on your "done" list.
> 
> What saved my marriage was a number of things, including counseling with a great Sex Therapist.
> 
> ...


While I think it's great that you had this come-to-jesus meeting with your wife, I am just not sure how I'd react if I were in your wife's shoes. 

I can guarantee that my gut reaction, whether or not I said it out loud, would be - well, there's the door. That would have been my pride reacting. Probably coupled with a sense of betrayal at having heard out loud that my husband had researched divorcing me and already had a date in mind (it makes me think of employee performance reviews and how top management might have a date for improvement or the employee gets fired). I, too, would have felt like the rest of our marriage was a lie if you had been that unhappy as to be ready to leave and I hadn't known it. 

I'm not saying that what you did was wrong. I think you absolutely did the right thing in being honest with her and making sure she understood you were serious. 

(My situation might be a bit different, because I like to think that I try very hard to make sex better and more frequent even though it is a long frustrating journey. So I do think that if I was put into a meeting where I was given a deadline to get it fixed, I would probably truly be defeated and tell him I think it's best if we just divorce. Out of exasperation at not being able to find any solutions after many years of working on it.)

So how did your wife react? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

kag123 said:


> ..... a sense of betrayal at having heard out loud that my husband had researched divorcing me and already had a date in mind (it makes me think of employee performance reviews and how top management might have a date for improvement or the employee gets fired). I, too, would have felt like the rest of *our marriage was a lie if you had been that unhappy as to be ready to leave and I hadn't known it.
> *
> I'm not saying that what you did was wrong. I think you absolutely did the right thing in being honest with her and making sure she understood you were serious.
> 
> ...


I had let my wife know for months that the total lack of sex, no sex for months and months was not acceptable. Before we started sex therapy, I figured out the things I had done wrong in the marriage and worked on correcting them. I started to make her feel loved and cherished, but she had emotionally shut down and would not try to change the situation nor have sex. I didn't push her to have sex, but told her when she was ready, we could should start having sex and that this could not go on forever. She knew one one level there was a problem, she saw that I was spending all my free time changing who I was, how I treated her, yet she tried to ignore the changes on another level. That is why I insisted on going to a sex therapist.

When I was doing all that change and trying to get her to read some of the relationship books I was reading or at least talk about the changes I was making in my life, she didn't really want to participate. Rather than emotionally checking out, I made a promise to myself that I was going to work on fixing the marriage or end it. That is when I checked out the divorce laws. I made a promise to myself that I was going to keep.

How did she react? Cried was angry, etc. Yelled at me to try to get into the comfortable "fight mode" she had established with me. Not happy with the new dynamic and change.

The ST told me that she was acting like a rebellious teenager (at the age of 60+). The ST gave us things to try, like sensate focus exercises and homework relationship readings and at first my wife refused to participate. Ultimately, the ST told my wife that she now understood the problem, that her husband was committed to changing himself and working with her, but if she didn't participate in rebuilding the marriage my wife would have to live with the consequences of her lack of actions.

Gradually my wife started doing the homework reading. Doing non-sexual touching was very hard on her. The ST had to negotiate the specifics the non-sexual her touching me and when they would occur and for how long. I had a hard time believing her reluctance. Later she said everything ripped her apart emotionally and make her feel like a sexual failure at every step of the way. She kept saying she wasn't a failure she was a strong, smart successful woman. Many times the ST asked my wife if she wanted a viable marriage. Many times the ST asked my wife and then me to describe what we thought our marriage should look like now, in 5 years, in 10 years and in 20 years. The ST was good at trying to get my wife to visualize what a good marriage could look like that would make my wife happy and make me happy as well.

Ultimately, we started to have sex again. Ultimately she started to enjoy having sex again, but at a much lower frequency than I needed. The ST helped us negotiate a sexual frequency that both she and I could live with. That was many years ago. Our marriage is now recovered /recovering. I still have emotional scars and she does as well. But be have completed 46 years of marriage and I think we will likely make 50 years of marriage or more. We are both committed to trying to make our marriage work for each other and ourselves.

I can understand the "marriage is a lie thing" you wrote, if she hadn't a clue as to how bad things were. I really think she just didn't want to see how bad things were until she had to. I think she kept trying to minimize the problems and exaggerate the the positives.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi David51,

I think it would be informative to know (without getting too personal) what was said between the two of you.

Some of this resonates, I had the talk and my ex never really accepted responsibility for the sex issues (always laying blame) and had to be pressed to admit she had no intention of changing. That's why I tell guys to focus on behavior and not believe excuses or empty promises.

I wonder if your case was different, since it seems to have happened quickly. Did you guys just calmly agree that you were mismatched? Did she say the sex problem was your fault (want it too often, want it the wrong way, etc.)? What about why she was pissed that you went out when she was not meeting your need? 



David51 said:


> Sunday the wife packs the kids off to her parents and when she gets home she wants to talk. I gently told her that I was done talking one thing led to another and bang we are headed to divorce court.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The "pride" reaction is an important one. Many people really do not want to feel like they have given in to "pressure". I'm pretty sure my wife is like this - she at a deep level believes that our sex life is good and that I am being unreasonable. She doesn't want to fell pressured / forced to do something unreasonable to satisfy my selfish needs. 







kag123 said:


> While I think it's great that you had this come-to-jesus meeting with your wife, I am just not sure how I'd react if I were in your wife's shoes.
> 
> I can guarantee that my gut reaction, whether or not I said it out loud, would be - well, there's the door. That would have been my pride reacting. Probably coupled with a sense of betrayal at having heard out loud that my husband had researched divorcing me and already had a date in mind (it makes me think of employee performance reviews and how top management might have a date for improvement or the employee gets fired). I, too, would have felt like the rest of our marriage was a lie if you had been that unhappy as to be ready to leave and I hadn't known it.
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Ideas have come from reading, online discussions and mostly my own mind. 

We had one experience with counseling on a different issue (children). That one was wasn't helpful, we had already examined the issue far beyond where the counselor assumed we were, so there was little added value. 

Counseling might work here, but I'm a little concerned about a lot of time spent going over things tried long ago. Still, not a bad idea, I'm considering. 






NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry nothing you have tried "worked". I am curious where you got all these ideas. None (sorry...edit most) of them look like things that are (edit) NOT likely to have any improvement on sex life. I wonder if you got ideas from people who know about relationships like the authors mentioned or counselors. I guess you are considering it.
> 
> 
> 
> But I have. Haven't I? Just from the other end of the equation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
In the oddest way - I kind of feel like that's what happened with me - when M2 has played the ultimatum card with me. 

But it's different when you've been doing stuff you KNOW is hurting your partner thru neglect. Which I'm guessing Young at hearts wife was doing. 

And for me it isn't pride it's pragmatism. I'm giving my best - and if it isn't good enough - she should leave for her own sake. 






kag123 said:


> While I think it's great that you had this come-to-jesus meeting with your wife, I am just not sure how I'd react if I were in your wife's shoes.
> 
> I can guarantee that my gut reaction, whether or not I said it out loud, would be - well, there's the door. That would have been my pride reacting. Probably coupled with a sense of betrayal at having heard out loud that my husband had researched divorcing me and already had a date in mind (it makes me think of employee performance reviews and how top management might have a date for improvement or the employee gets fired). I, too, would have felt like the rest of our marriage was a lie if you had been that unhappy as to be ready to leave and I hadn't known it.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred, 
If you took 100% control of an important area of your marriage - maybe the schedule. How would that go over?

And not just 100% control as in veto power. But what if you automatically vetoed every suggestion she made? 

So when she said, let's have sue and bill over for dinner this weekend - you just said: no - not gonna happen

But that's what she's done with your sex life. She knows it isn't good for you. And at some level she knows that her insistence on holding total control isn't ok. 

-----------
That said - the only times you have gotten improvement are when you have one of those ambiguous conversations that likely scare her a bit with regard to you leaving her. 

You put her first outside the bedroom - it's in your nature to do so. Same routine for the same reason at my house. 

Difference is - in the bedroom U2 puts herself first. That's a choice. A selfish choice - but a choice. 

BTW - it's obvious U2 loves you - it's why she ups her game when she feels threatened. 

In the bedroom here - M2 never put herself first. 










uhtred said:


> The "pride" reaction is an important one. Many people really do not want to feel like they have given in to "pressure". I'm pretty sure my wife is like this - she at a deep level believes that our sex life is good and that I am being unreasonable. She doesn't want to fell pressured / forced to do something unreasonable to satisfy my selfish needs.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

uhtred said:


> The "pride" reaction is an important one. Many people really do not want to feel like they have given in to "pressure". I'm pretty sure my wife is like this - she at a deep level believes that our sex life is good and that I am being unreasonable. She doesn't want to fell pressured / forced to do something unreasonable to satisfy my selfish needs.


My ex took this to the extreme where he could not do something I asked because it would somehow mean he was whipped or whatever. 
He never said those words but it made itself clear. 

This is why pride and ego need to step aside in a marriage. One of the biggest parts is giving to your partner, and not reluctantly but actively wanting to please your partner. Not just sex but everything.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The "pride" reaction is an important one. Many people really do not want to feel like they have given in to "pressure". I'm pretty sure my wife is like this - she at a deep level believes that our sex life is good and that I am being unreasonable. She doesn't want to fell pressured / forced to do something unreasonable to satisfy my selfish needs.


EEEEK. That is worse, unfortunately, than just a sexual difference. Not being willing to accept that YOUR needs do not align with her "reasonable" or that holding one's ground is more important than meeting in the middle is a good thing. I would start THERE. YMMV.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> I had let my wife know for months that the total lack of sex, no sex for months and months was not acceptable. Before we started sex therapy, I figured out the things I had done wrong in the marriage and worked on correcting them. I started to make her feel loved and cherished, but she had emotionally shut down and would not try to change the situation nor have sex. I didn't push her to have sex, but told her when she was ready, we could should start having sex and that this could not go on forever. She knew one one level there was a problem, she saw that I was spending all my free time changing who I was, how I treated her, yet she tried to ignore the changes on another level. That is why I insisted on going to a sex therapist.
> 
> When I was doing all that change and trying to get her to read some of the relationship books I was reading or at least talk about the changes I was making in my life, she didn't really want to participate. Rather than emotionally checking out, I made a promise to myself that I was going to work on fixing the marriage or end it. That is when I checked out the divorce laws. I made a promise to myself that I was going to keep.
> 
> ...


YaH, did you ever discover what was at the root of your wife's reluctance? That sounds like a lot more than simply being LD. Was it resentment over past hurts?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just as a note, the conversations aren't ambiguous. 

I do see your point, but Mrs U's rejections are always framed differently. There is always a *reason* not to have sex. I suppose that the equivalent is that I could claim an upset stomach every time she wants to eat out. (Of course I enjoy eating out too, so I'm not sure that would be a big win).

Maybe part of the problem is that I enjoy lots of things. I like eating out. I like watching movies, I like climbing mountains, traveling to exotic destinations, and a wide variety of sexual activities. So when I'm doing things with her, I am rarely doing things *for* her. We of course both do chores. So if her attitude is that neither of us should do (non-chore) thins that we don't want, that naturally turns into doing everything except sex. To her, that is fair.

If there is something I really don't want to do, I tell her. (like going to the Opera), and she does it herself. 

Should I start vetoing things just to exert control? Maybe. 







MEM2020 said:


> Uhtred,
> If you took 100% control of an important area of your marriage - maybe the schedule. How would that go over?
> 
> And not just 100% control as in veto power. But what if you automatically vetoed every suggestion she made?
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes this is a big issue - though I doubt she would admit to it. Its so bad that I've found that if I ask for something sexual she will very rarely do it, even if its something she sometimes initiates herself. 

I need to think about how to approach this particular part of the problem. 




NobodySpecial said:


> EEEEK. That is worse, unfortunately, than just a sexual difference. Not being willing to accept that YOUR needs do not align with her "reasonable" or that holding one's ground is more important than meeting in the middle is a good thing. I would start THERE. YMMV.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> YaH, did you ever discover what was at the root of your wife's reluctance? That sounds like a lot more than simply being LD. Was it resentment over past hurts?


A lot of cultures consider sex at an, ehem, later age, as a nonstarter. Regardless of other issues, this in itself is unwinnable.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Yes this is a big issue - though I doubt she would admit to it. Its so bad that I've found that if I ask for something sexual she will very rarely do it, even if its something she sometimes initiates herself.
> 
> I need to think about how to approach this particular part of the problem.


Is sex the ONLY thing she feels the need to defend her turf on?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She is a little controlling in other ways, sometimes in a sort of stupid way. Usually she cooks, I clean. If I miss a dish to clean up she will tell me rather than just put it in the dishwasher herself. OTOH, she always apologizes if dinner doesn't come out well, even though I always tell her that its fine -she is a great and inventive cook - nothing wrong with an occasional experiment that doesn't work well. 

The non-sex issues are all pretty trivial. There isn't anything else significant where our interests differ much. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Is sex the ONLY thing she feels the need to defend her turf on?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> A lot of cultures consider sex at an, ehem, later age, as a nonstarter. Regardless of other issues, this in itself is unwinnable.


This is true, but YaH stated that she was even averse to non-sexual contact. Doesn't seem like a cultural issue as much as an emotional one, but who knows.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> She is a little controlling in other ways, sometimes in a sort of stupid way. Usually she cooks, I clean. If I miss a dish to clean up she will tell me rather than just put it in the dishwasher herself. OTOH, she always apologizes if dinner doesn't come out well, even though I always tell her that its fine -she is a great and inventive cook - nothing wrong with an occasional experiment that doesn't work well.
> 
> The non-sex issues are all pretty trivial. There isn't anything else significant where our interests differ much.


Have you ever done the love language quiz? I wonder what that would reveal.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> This is true, but YaH stated that she was even averse to non-sexual contact. Doesn't seem like a cultural issue as much as an emotional one, but who knows.


Yah. Like holding on to boundaries is MORE important than a balance between boundaries and giving and understanding... It does start to sound that way. It still is about as clear as mud though.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> YaH, did you ever discover what was at the root of your wife's reluctance? That sounds like a lot more than simply being LD. Was it resentment over past hurts?


Yes, I did find out the issues and fixed it before we started with the sex therapist.

If you are a fan of Chapman's 5 LL, my wife is an acts of service and quality time person, I am a touch and words of affirmation person.

When I wanted to reach out an express my love to her I would touch her (hold hands, put hand on shoulder, etc.) and praise her. She would tell me to stop pawing at her just to get in her pants. She would tell me to stop buttering her up just to get in her pants. I would feel like my emotional outporing of love to her was rejected. She didn't know she was hurting me and pushing me away.

My wife to show me her love would model her mother and make sure that there was a hot, home cooked meal ready when I got home from dinner even though she worked. That was an act of service that she felt showed how much she loved me and should make me feel loved. It did little for me emotionally. She also felt it was critical that we eat dinner together and talk about the day (quality time). Again this did nothing to make me feel loved.

If I came home late and the dinner were burned or overcooked she would be really mad as I had just rejected her statement of love. She would yell at me, which is the opposite of praise and so I would feel unloved. I would gobble down the dinner as quickly as possible to go to the living room to get away from her criticism of me. That would infuriate her as I was destroying her quality time. So the yelling would follow me into the living room. Soon we would go to bed and there would be no sex that night or for a few to follow.

Because I wasn't getting any emotional "love" at home. I worked harder at work, got promotions and missed more dinners. I was avoiding the fights at home. I was rewarded at work with praise from bosses, co-workers, and clients for me work which made me feel more loved at work than at home. I told myself that I was being a "good provider" and making sure my family wanted for nothing.

Were were doing what MW Davis describes as a devil dance or downward spiral. Every day each of us was expressing our love for each other, but interpreting wrongly because we didn't understand the 5 love languages. We drifted apart year after year until the sex dried up and my wife emotionally checked out. We had a pretty classic sex starved marriage, yet most days we would do things in our own love languages to say to the other that we loved them. Unfortunately neither of us understood that.

Things got so bad I started to read relationship books. MW Davis was the first one. In the back in had a foot note that indicated she had a website with forums. I logged on one day and posted my story. Some very nice folks gave me suggestions, helped me figure out some of my issues and recommended Glover's NMMNG and Chapman's 5LL. After reading those and re-reading the Sex Starved Marriage by Davis, the light came on as to why I was a big part of the problem. That was my "come to Jesus" moment. 

I apologized to my wife, made it a priority to come home by a certain time for dinner, talk to her at dinner and really listen and ask detailed questions. Over time, I started to be her "sous-chef" so she could create even more elaborate home cooked meals to better express love. I also stopped pursuing her physically to give her space. 

I tried in a Nice Guy fashion doing more stuff around the house, but she interpreted that as just doing my fair share of the choirs. One morning I got up early went downstairs, made coffee for myself, and brought it back upstairs to drink. I also brought her a cup of coffee. THAT WAS MY SECOND AH HA MOMENT. That was something she viewed as an act of service. She liked that. We talked in bed as she woke up. That meant she was starting her day with my providing her with an act of service and quality time. It also meant that she ended the day with shared acts of service and quality time. 

I worked very hard and turning in my Nice Guy card and stopped all the covert contracts. I just provided her with as much unconditional love as I could. 

She was feeling better about things, but still not ready for sex. It took the help of a sex therapist to help us start having sex again. 

P.S. Many of us on this forum were banned at one point or another from that other forum because.....we recommended to others a non-MW Davis book. Thank you.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm not sure that is even possible in some cases. Safe (to me, anyways) means "free from consequences". Often, the lack of sex leads to the LD partner being treated worse also and causes marriages to end.

Telling your spouse "Nothing bad will happen" from such a talk is dishonest. Dishonesty never helps. You're better off saying "we need to discuss this calmly" and leave it at that.



Holdingontoit said:


> ...you have to create an environment where your wife feels safe and comfortable admitting the truth. From your posts, I do not see you having created that environment for your wife. Hey, I didn't either for a long time and I understand it is difficult to create. But you do not want to follow in my footsteps. So my advice is to choose a different path.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> This is true, but YaH stated that she was even averse to non-sexual contact. Doesn't seem like a cultural issue as much as an emotional one, but who knows.


Not necessarily. Wife's culture isn't very conducive to over 50 anything. Communism and Islam and all that jazz...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. Like holding on to boundaries is MORE important than a balance between boundaries and giving and understanding... It does start to sound that way. It still is about as clear as mud though.


Yes.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

john117 said:


> A lot of cultures consider sex at an, ehem, later age, as a nonstarter. Regardless of other issues, this in itself is unwinnable.





NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. Like holding on to boundaries is MORE important than a balance between boundaries and giving and understanding... It does start to sound that way. It still is about as clear as mud though.





john117 said:


> Not necessarily. Wife's culture isn't very conducive to over 50 anything. Communism and Islam and all that jazz...


John, Nobody Special & Fozzy;

Now that my wife is a grandmother (babushka) there are cultural issues that lurk in the background. Luckily, we became grandparents several years after our marriage counseling with the sex therapist.

But it can be a strong cultural issue for some as John117 pointed out.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Have you ever done the love language quiz? I wonder what that would reveal.


:iagree:


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

uhtred said:


> I think someone who ends up with a partner who also thinks sex is just physical may never have the opportunity to learn.
> 
> Another thought: There is a lot of variation in people's sexual interests, *I wonder if sex IS just physical for some people.* That is really is just about the mechanics. I could swear that is the case for my wife - she seems to have no interest at all in atmosphere, just in what I physically do. (believe me, I've tried).


Those who don't want a relationship/ attachment, and prefer a casual sex lifestyle.. sure... there are MANY of those. 

This would make an interesting thread ..... if we could break down how much is pure Physical (horniness, to get off in the moment) vs how much of the act is EMOTIONAL (sentimentality, romance , feeling of intimacy/ love) ....I've asked my husband this question in the past due to a discussion here a while back... he attributed 70% to be emotional for him... I thought that was on the high side, but it didn't surprise me either... obviously he wants the physical release too though ! .... but true to him..in the past, if I didn't seem as into it.. he wouldn't bother me, make a fuss, but waited till I wanted it too.... He told me once he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex" for him as it never was. 

A friend said her husband broke it down to be 70% Physical, with only like 30% emotional ... he doesn't mind, is never bothered if she doesn't get an O -which works for them as she struggles in this area ... 

Where with my husband, he cares tremendously... it wouldn't be the same if I didn't -but maybe THAT is physical, though it affects him emotionally ... confusing!... 

I would say it is half and half for me.. love them both.. NEED them both to be passionate about the act....I REALLY want my O each time or I feel a Let down where I'd want him to do it again! Here is some viagra! 

I also love the afterglow, lying in his arms afterwards... this goes along with the act...it's fulfilling....it's intimacy... which means a great deal to some of us.. that's the emotional....If I didn't have this with a man I would long for it.. and probably need to leave him..


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have actually validated the above theory. Wife's circle is 15 or so families from her country we socialize on a regular basis. The over 50 crowd is strictly hands off. Most of the women make an effort to look good, not for their husbands or themselves but for others. It's what I have coined "keeping up with the Joneses". PDA of any kind is discouraged and most men rarely even sit with their wives. 

The men also show little interest even considering the amount of effort women put to look good. I mean, you aren't going to gawk at your wife's friend with the Susan Sarandon cleavage, but not even a passing look? WTF. Or a mention of anything like romantic dinner, flowers, etc? Exponential WTF.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Those who don't want a relationship/ attachment, and prefer a casual sex lifestyle.. sure... there are MANY of those.
> 
> This would make an interesting thread ..... if we could break down how much is pure Physical (horniness, to get off in the moment) vs how much of the act is EMOTIONAL (sentimentality, romance , feeling of intimacy/ love) ....I've asked my husband this question in the past due to a discussion here a while back... he attributed 70% to be emotional for him... I thought that was on the high side, but it didn't surprise me either... obviously he wants the physical release too though ! .... but true to him..in the past, if I didn't seem as into it.. he wouldn't bother me, make a fuss, but waited till I wanted it too.... He told me once he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex" for him as it never was.
> 
> A friend said her husband broke it down to be 70% Physical, with only like 30% emotional ... he doesn't mind, is never bothered if she doesn't get an O -which works for them as she struggles in this area ...


I am kind of baffled that those things are viewed as separate or mutually exclusive.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have actually validated the above theory. Wife's circle is 15 or so families from her country we socialize on a regular basis. The over 50 crowd is strictly hands off. Most of the women make an effort to look good, not for their husbands or themselves but for others. It's what I have coined "keeping up with the Joneses". PDA of any kind is discouraged and most men rarely even sit with their wives.
> 
> The men also show little interest even considering the amount of effort women put to look good. I mean, you aren't going to gawk at your wife's friend with the Susan Sarandon cleavage, but not even a passing look? WTF. Or a mention of anything like romantic dinner, flowers, etc? Exponential WTF.


What is the tangible benefit these folks see in remaining married?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am kind of baffled that those things are viewed as separate or mutually exclusive.


They are definitely separate, but not mutually exclusive. A person can be horny without being horny for the person they're married to, or even for anyone in particular at all.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> They are definitely separate, but not mutually exclusive. A person can be horny without being horny for the person they're married to, or even for anyone in particular at all.


They CAN be separate. But I agree that they are not mutually exclusive. I would even go so far as to say that sex is best when it is mostly BOTH.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes, agree both is best, 50/50ish. 

If it's been a while we'll sometimes have what we call "medicinal sex", code for we really just need to get off now. It's OK but somehow also lacking. The follow up is usually soon and the focus then is more emotional and connection oriented.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> Yes, agree both is best, 50/50ish.


Oh yee of little imagination. I will take 100/100 ish please. 



> If it's been a while we'll sometimes have what we call "medicinal sex", code for we really just need to get off now. It's OK but somehow also lacking. The follow up is usually soon and the focus then is more emotional and connection oriented.


We call it maintenance sex. If it was instead of good sex, I would feel a lack too. But it is in addition to.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh yee of little imagination. I will take 100/100 ish please.
> 
> We call it maintenance sex. If it was instead of good sex, I would feel a lack too. But it is in addition to.


I'll have what you're having!

I never thought of it as instead of / in addition, I like. I'm OK as long as it's not happening too often.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Similar set of 'likes' here - replace mountain climbing with bicycling and it is the same. 

I am not suggesting that you actually veto stuff. More that you have a conversation during which you try to get her to understand that she would feel bad if her requests got a uniform veto from you even if the veto was always wrapped in a polite excuse. 

The hardest part is to avoid the 'it isn't fair' theme. The goal isn't to get her to see it as unfair. But rather to try and get her to see it as hurtful/painful by pointing out that if you did it to her in those other contexts - she would feel bad. 

The issue isn't that she is tired/headache/stomach ache. The real issue is that somehow she isn't ok saying: Can we connect tomorrow? 

Fwiw - maybe she needs some lead time to get herself in the mood - which is not a rare thing.









uhtred said:


> Just as a note, the conversations aren't ambiguous.
> 
> I do see your point, but Mrs U's rejections are always framed differently. There is always a *reason* not to have sex. I suppose that the equivalent is that I could claim an upset stomach every time she wants to eat out. (Of course I enjoy eating out too, so I'm not sure that would be a big win).
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> What is the tangible benefit these folks see in remaining married?


They're all expats with substantial money and social status. That was the first thing I noticed as well. None of them divorced. I know one that did but the story is much more elaborate.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't believe these folks are all celibate. 

Might not be having marital sex - but at least some of them are having sex with someone else. 




john117 said:


> They're all expats with substantial money and social status. That was the first thing I noticed as well. None of them divorced. I know one that did but the story is much more elaborate.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Young,

This is really good. And it's what set the table for success when you went to counseling. 

And - sometimes it is so much better for a third party to say things for you. Such as: 

Pretty obvious this guy loves you. If he leaves, it won't be cause he doesn't love you. It will be cause he has concluded you don't really love him. 





Young at Heart said:


> Yes, I did find out the issues and fixed it before we started with the sex therapist.
> 
> If you are a fan of Chapman's 5 LL, my wife is an acts of service and quality time person, I am a touch and words of affirmation person.
> 
> ...


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Pretty obvious this guy loves you. If he leaves, it won't be cause he doesn't love you. It will be cause he has concluded you don't really love him.


This statement really cuts through the smokescreens. 

Yet if the HD is unwilling to risk losing something to get it back, they will find little will change. 

And...

They have nowhere to turn to lay the blame....except their own feet. If it is important enough to make you miserable without, it is important enough to take things to the brink to change.

ETA: I know this from plenty of time staring at my own shoes over this issue.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see Mrs U's rejections a little differently. I think that she *wants* us to have an active passionate sex life. Its just that when it comes down to actually having sex, she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't know *why* she doesn't feel like it, everything should be great, so she identifies that as some physical ailment. (like being too tired). Her vetoes always are accompanied by apologies and a promise to make it up. 

She *does* say that we will connect tomorrow (or whenever), but when tomorrow comes, there is almost always a new reason. 

Strangely she doesn't seem to need or want time to get in the mood. A day spent on a romantic vacation, or other similar activity, or a day doing chores seem to have exactly the same chance of her wanting sex. In fact romantic vacations are less likely to result in sex than chore days because there are other things she wants to do on vacation. 





MEM2020 said:


> Similar set of 'likes' here - replace mountain climbing with bicycling and it is the same.
> 
> I am not suggesting that you actually veto stuff. More that you have a conversation during which you try to get her to understand that she would feel bad if her requests got a uniform veto from you even if the veto was always wrapped in a polite excuse.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In her reality she feels an active sex life is once a month because in her reality 60 year olds don't have sex.

It's THAT simple. 

A friend of us is a physician and hid wife a PhD biology. Son a renowned plastic surgeon out West. Mom looks 25 years younger than she is (63) thanks to her son, a stunning woman. Dad looks like Gollum at 65. 

She does not see herself as a sexual being, nor does Dr. Gollum. If it was me I'd be following her like a puppy, she's that good looking.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I see Mrs U's rejections a little differently. I think that she *wants* us to have an active passionate sex life. Its just that when it comes down to actually having sex, she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't know *why* she doesn't feel like it, everything should be great, so she identifies that as some physical ailment. (like being too tired). Her vetoes always are accompanied by apologies and a promise to make it up.
> 
> She *does* say that we will connect tomorrow (or whenever), but when tomorrow comes, there is almost always a new reason.
> 
> Strangely she doesn't seem to need or want time to get in the mood. A day spent on a romantic vacation, or other similar activity, or a day doing chores seem to have exactly the same chance of her wanting sex. In fact romantic vacations are less likely to result in sex than chore days because there are other things she wants to do on vacation.


For what it is worth, when I take my wife on romantic cruises or vacations, the sex drops instead of increasing.

Also are you sure you are interpreting what she is saying when she doesn't want sex? You posted that you are hearing what you consider excuses for not having sex, but are they really statements that she just isn't ready for sex "again" at a higher than her libido allows and is telling you why when you press her?" 

Or she is just tossing something out for you to consume so she can end the conversation. Next time she give you an excuse, you might ask her if she really means what she just said. If she says yes, then ask her what you can do so that this won't be reoccurring problem for her that gets in the way of her active sex life.

I know that it is the same end-result, but in her mind it might be totally different.

I think John said it well that "...In her reality she feels an active sex life is once a month because in her reality 60 year olds don't have sex....."

Good luck to you.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Young,
> 
> This is really good. And it's what set the table for success when you went to counseling.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I never really put that aspect of the therapy together, but yes you are right. 

In fact the ST said to my wife pretty much what you wrote, except that she added, he is a "good man and a good husband, some other woman will be thrilled to have him as a husband."

One of the strongest long term benefits of the ST was in getting us to visualize and discuss what a "good marriage" would look like in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years and work toward that.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I see Mrs U's rejections a little differently. I think that she *wants* us to have an active passionate sex life. Its just that when it comes down to actually having sex, she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't know *why* she doesn't feel like it, everything should be great, so she identifies that as some physical ailment. (like being too tired). Her vetoes always are accompanied by apologies and a promise to make it up.
> 
> She *does* say that we will connect tomorrow (or whenever), but when tomorrow comes, there is almost always a new reason.
> 
> Strangely she doesn't seem to need or want time to get in the mood. A day spent on a romantic vacation, or other similar activity, or a day doing chores seem to have exactly the same chance of her wanting sex. In fact romantic vacations are less likely to result in sex than chore days because there are other things she wants to do on vacation.


This is where I shake my head...at you.

Those who want to find a way. Those who don't find an excuse. 

In other words...

You believe her words. 

I believe her actions.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Depends on what you mean by "believe".

I don't believe we will actually have sex when she says we will. I think I do believe that *she* believes she is telling the truth. 




farsidejunky said:


> This is where I shake my head...at you.
> 
> Those who want to find a way. Those who don't find an excuse.
> 
> ...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Depends on what you mean by "believe".
> 
> I don't believe we will actually have sex when she says we will. I think *I do believe that *she* believes she is telling the truth.*


Which is the nonsense that sees you have a sexless nominally sexual relationship.

At the end of the day your perspective and approach, guarantee you will only ever have a sexless relationship with your wife.

It is plainly evident to me that you ensure your own sexlessness far more more than your wife does or ever can.



uhtred said:


> The thing is, there are an almost unlimited number of suggestions, its impossible to try them all. Some of us have tried a lot. What I've tried:
> 
> Patience - maybe it will take time for her to become comfortable with sex.
> 
> ...


If I wanted to ensure that I would have a sexless, marital relationship, I would follow what you have laid out to the letter. For such an approach seems splendidly engineered to achieve exactly that.



uhtred said:


> If you haven't lived in this situation its difficult to imagine.


Actually I think living in that situation is not that difficult to imagine at all. The only thing that is difficult for me to comprehend, is why you are so determined to do things that ensure you get exactly that, while saying you want to have a sexual nominally sexual relationship with your wife.

I don't believe you actually want a sexual relationship when you say you do. I do believe that you believe you like the idea of wanting a sexual relationship.

The trouble is just like your wife, your behaviour proves otherwise.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I am minimizing bad sex by basically never initiating sex, because almost every time we have sex is bad. She just has too many rules, too many stop signs, etc. Just recently, she told me she doesn't like it when I touch her boobs until we're already having intercourse. There is no oral, either way. I'm not even allowed to "touch" her vagina, only with my penis. And now I'm not allowed to touch her boobs??? She has basically reduced foreplay to a light hand job to get me hard. I no longer worry about initiating sex, because honestly, it's not an enjoyable experience for me. But she makes sure we have sex roughly once a week, because she doesn't want to be one of THOSE wives. People say "you need to turn her on more... spend more time on foreplay... make sure she has an orgasm." The truth is she doesn't want to be turned on by me, she doesn't want me to give her an orgasm.


For some reason comprehension and understanding gets messed up.

In other words your wife told you she doesn't like having her boobs played with until she is highly aroused.

Instead of appreciating what she shared with you in order to make her sexual experience with you better, which will as a consequence if acted upon benefit you by making her want that which is a pleasure for her. You instead play the ego protection game.

Your sex life sux, because you are more worried about your own pride than you are about sharing a good time with your wife.

There's more of course, yet this kind of nonsense is one of the reasons why some men find themselves in sexless nominally sexual relationships.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Yet if the HD is unwilling to risk losing something to get it back, they will find little will change.
> 
> And...
> 
> ...


Yeah well, I took things to the brink to bring about change and nothing changed. Well, except for a stellar bout of narcissistic rage aimed my way. My exH just used the time (after the brink) as another opportunity for his acting and manipulations skills to pretend until he found a replacement for me. Of course, he is now on his 4th “replacement”, but that’s another story.

Yes, he didn’t love me and he never did, he is not capable of love. I would challenge any “normal person” to detect, in real-time or in retrospect, the manipulations and other tactics that a clinical covert narcissist uses. I am not a ****ing PhD psychologist so I can’t do it. Hell, it took a real PhD psychologist 5 – 1.5 hour sessions with him to figure out what he was doing and what he was and even then she got a second (confirming) opinion.

Withholding sex (and bad sex) is in their arsenal, filed under “control tactics”; anything you want or need they will withhold and then dole out with a tiny spoon when they think they have pushed you "too far". Don’t ****ing tell me it’s my fault this happened to me. Instead, pray that you never become the target of one of these disordered wolfs in sheep’s clothing.

Yes, you triggered me.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> Yeah well, I took things to the brink to bring about change and nothing changed. Well, except for a stellar bout of narcissistic rage aimed my way. My exH just used the time (after the brink) as another opportunity for his acting and manipulations skills to pretend until he found a replacement for me. Of course, he is now on his 4th “replacement”, but that’s another story.
> 
> Yes, he didn’t love me and he never did, he is not capable of love. I would challenge any “normal person” to detect, in real-time or in retrospect, the manipulations and other tactics that a clinical covert narcissist uses. I am not a ****ing PhD psychologist so I can’t do it. Hell, it took a real PhD psychologist 5 – 1.5 hour sessions with him to figure out what he was doing and what he was and even then she got a second (confirming) opinion.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the trigger.

The only thing you should have done was take it past the brink, Sonja. 

The idea is to take it to the brink, and if it does not improve...step over the edge.

Plenty of folks are willing to toe the edge, but unless they are willing to actually end it, it is all bluster and bluff.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OK, what specific are you suggesting? Not "don't tolerate", something specific like: "threaten to divorce", "stop working", "get a mistress" or similar.

Most of the things on my list came from people who were *sure* that they knew how to solve the problem.







Personal said:


> Which is the nonsense that sees you have a sexless nominally sexual relationship.
> 
> At the end of the day your perspective and approach, guarantee you will only ever have a sexless relationship with your wife.
> 
> ...


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> I respect the effort you put into this. I disagree with your main premise which is divorce or acceptance of celibacy.


I would say my main premise is more like: give it 6 months to a year; and if there is no improvement, then divorce or accept celibacy. I gave it 8 years of trying and failing. That was crushing. I think that is far too long.

I am not saying there is zero chance of success after 6 months or a year. I am saying that the chance of success is low, and there is a cost to continuing to try. In my view, after 6 months of fruitless effort, the HD is best off divorcing and investing their effort in finding a more compatible partner.

Also, if you "give up" after 6 months or a year, you are less likely to find yourself "throwing good money after bad" where the marriage as lasted so long and your income and savings have increased and the alimony obligation is piling up and you can't afford to divorce. File sooner when you are earning less and have less saved up and have been less scarred by years and years of rejection.

So I am not saying "don't make any effort to fix the problem". I am saying "make a really strong effort to fix it in the first 6 months or year after it becomes a problem; and if you don't see any progress during that time frame, assume it is never getting any better".

After all, the cases where we find success after repeated failure are almost all where the HD makes clear that they are walking over the lack of sex. Might as well get to there sooner rather than later.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

DTO said:


> I'm not sure that is even possible in some cases. Safe (to me, anyways) means "free from consequences". Often, the lack of sex leads to the LD partner being treated worse also and causes marriages to end.
> 
> Telling your spouse "Nothing bad will happen" from such a talk is dishonest. Dishonesty never helps. You're better off saying "we need to discuss this calmly" and leave it at that.


In the moment. Yes, eventually if my spouse continues to view me in a negative light there may be negative consequences. But I am not going to hold it against her in the moment. I am not going to get angry. I am not going to yell and scream. I am not going to start arguing that you are wrong. I am not going to lecture you about what an ungrateful wretch you are (even if that is what I think). In the moment, I am calmly going to thank you for sharing your inner truth and respecting me enough to be honest with me.

If you want to hear truth, at the very least you have to promise not to jump down their throat when they dare to share it with you.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> OK, what specific are you suggesting? Not "don't tolerate", something specific like: "threaten to divorce", "stop working", "get a mistress" or similar.


Stop focusing on the sex. Instead focus on the fact that she would rather defend her turf/opinions/definition of normal that have an open and loving engagement with YOU. Get a copy of Passionate Marriage and read it. If you wind up doing the dress up event, if you wife is like the one who complains the whole time about having to do it and how silly it is, the suspicion that her actions don't come from the perspective of open lovingness but from somewhere else. Then you can act on THAT information.

See a counselor.



> Most of the things on my list came from people who were *sure* that they knew how to solve the problem.


Right? You get what you pay for. If I had a dollar for every person who has been certain that my marriage is doomed, I would be a millionaire. But here we are, happier than ever. You're call.


----------



## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

My 2 cents on how to minimize bad sex? Open yourself up, be vulnerable, and communicate. Not a guarantee but I think those will help.

Last night for me could be a good example of this. It was ok. Bordered on bad sex though due to lack of communication. I wanted my wife to do something else than what she was doing and thought she wasnt much into it. Turns out she was waiting and wanting me to ASK for the exact thing I wanted. Has been a thing for us. Me just wanting her to do it and feeling awkward about asking, with her actually wanting me to ask for it.

So communication. I know its not a cure all and dont mean to trivialize some posters problems in this area. I realize some have probably tried to "communicate" until they are blue in the face. But I say keep at it. Maybe try to open yourself up more. Put yourself out there. Not like it doesnt hurt already being sexless.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred 
You are in my 'exception' list. Meaning - if I were you - I wouldn't leave U2 either. 

She's been like this for a long long time. And she won't repartner easily if at all. You'd be too guilty to be happy without her. 

And you don't seem wired for outsourcing - so that avenue doesn't seem like a good one for you. 

That said - while I wouldn't leave U2 - I would say: 

- By definition the stuff that's important to you is important to me. If it wasn't I'd have had an affair a long time ago. Only reason I haven't is I know it would really hurt you. 
- I feel like you are taking advantage of my good nature by pretending sex isn't that important - solely because it isn't that important to you. That isn't nice. And it really isn't even honest. 






uhtred said:


> OK, what specific are you suggesting? Not "don't tolerate", something specific like: "threaten to divorce", "stop working", "get a mistress" or similar.
> 
> Most of the things on my list came from people who were *sure* that they knew how to solve the problem.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> ....Get a copy of Passionate Marriage and read it. If you wind up doing the dress up event, if you wife is like the one who complains the whole time about having to do it and how silly it is, the suspicion that her actions don't come from the perspective of open lovingness but from somewhere else. Then you can act on THAT information.
> 
> See a counselor.
> 
> ...


Wow. OK I am a big fan of Dr. David Schnarch. I have read his books. The Passionate Marriage is about as dry and difficult read I have ever done. I have two university graduate degrees and I would would prefer reading a textbook on advanced calculus or organic chemistry. 

PM is an incredible eye opener and revolutionary in approach. It is worth the effort, but he has some newer books out that are easier to ready and much shorter.

Intimacy and Desire or the Crucible would be much easier reads to understand his approach to fixing marriages.

I think Schnarch is great and he has some great insights into marriage.

My wife complained about the lack of intimacy to me during our sex therapy sessions. I broke out Schnarch's intimacy exercises, had her read them and said to my wife, let's try some of the exercises. My wife said she didn't want "that much intimacy." and never brought the topic up again.

His concept of "marital sadism" where your spouse knows all your hot buttons and loves to use them to torment you for their sadistic enjoyment is something that makes me smile. BTDT on the receiving end.

The concept on the need to practice self-soothing for all kinds of situations in inspired.

Yes, he should read Schnarch, but I am not sure PM is the place to start.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

My 2 cents as to what to change is in two parts.

First listen to the advice of MW Davis. If what you are doing is not working try something different; do a 180. Keep trying something different, until you find something that changes the behavioral dynamic, then reinforce that and do slight modifications until you again get improved behavior. Always positively reinforce improved or desired behavior.

Second, truly fix yourself. Heal yourself so you no longer have anger. Improve yourself so you no longer are codependent on your spouse. Make yourself into a better person you are proud of. 

Good luck.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> The idea is to take it to the brink, and if it does not improve...step over the edge.


That is _exactly _what I did, more than 3 years ago now.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Young,

You make me laugh (in a good way) about this topic. 

And truly - Schnarch is right about self settling. We wouldn't be married if I couldn't self settle. I don't LIKE having to do it - but I am capable of doing it and then patiently waiting until M2 wishes to constructively engage. This gives her the time and space sometimes needs. 

She couldn't respect me if I apologized for her bad behavior just to end the conflict. 







Young at Heart said:


> Wow. OK I am a big fan of Dr. David Schnarch. I have read his books. The Passionate Marriage is about as dry and difficult read I have ever done. I have two university graduate degrees and I would would prefer reading a textbook on advanced calculus or organic chemistry.
> 
> PM is an incredible eye opener and revolutionary in approach. It is worth the effort, but he has some newer books out that are easier to ready and much shorter.
> 
> ...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Middle of Everything said:


> My 2 cents on how to minimize bad sex? Open yourself up, be vulnerable, and communicate. Not a guarantee but I think those will help.
> 
> Last night for me could be a good example of this. It was ok. Bordered on bad sex though due to lack of communication. I wanted my wife to do something else than what she was doing and thought she wasnt much into it. Turns out she was waiting and wanting me to ASK for the exact thing I wanted. Has been a thing for us. Me just wanting her to do it and feeling awkward about asking, with her actually wanting me to ask for it.
> 
> So communication. I know its not a cure all and dont mean to trivialize some posters problems in this area. I realize some have probably tried to "communicate" until they are blue in the face. But I say keep at it. Maybe try to open yourself up more. Put yourself out there. Not like it doesnt hurt already being sexless.


And it's not just the fact of communication. It's also in the "how". Some types of messages are easier to receive than others. And this can vary by person!


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> That is _exactly _what I did, more than 3 years ago now.


I am glad to hear it.

See?

We were speaking to the same thing, even though my description lacked tact.

;-)


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm going to try to frame this notion of bad sex from both sides simultaneously.

I've made no secret M2 has a chronic inflammatory condition which - when carefully managed is not troublesome at all. But if it is poorly managed - it is seriously painful. Vulvodynia is what they call it. 

So - going back 6 years she started having real anxiety about PIV - since at least half the time she would start off with no pain but 3-5 minutes in it would start to hurt. And it went from uncomfortable to very painful in the space of a minute or so. 

She began to dread having sex. Went and saw a bunch of doctors. Tried Wellbutrin - which is like magic - it more than quadrupled her sex drive - but didn't help much with the pain. 

So we umm - switch entirely to other activities. I'm not a big fan of anal and the two times we tried it - once was painful for her. So that didn't become a replacement activity. 

To be continued.....




Holdingontoit said:


> I would say my main premise is more like: give it 6 months to a year; and if there is no improvement, then divorce or accept celibacy. I gave it 8 years of trying and failing. That was crushing. I think that is far too long.
> 
> I am not saying there is zero chance of success after 6 months or a year. I am saying that the chance of success is low, and there is a cost to continuing to try. In my view, after 6 months of fruitless effort, the HD is best off divorcing and investing their effort in finding a more compatible partner.
> 
> ...


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@MEM2020: another caveat. I am not talking about cases where the LD had a workable sex drive and then a medical condition arose that made sex less pleasurable. I am talking about cases where the person was never into sex or stopped for a non-medical reason and refuses to make changes to their routine and the way the couple has sex. A LD with a medical condition who works to make sex workable is a very different case.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding, 
Sure - But this thread - being about bad sex instead of no sex - didn't appear by accident. First and foremost a disclaimer - I vehemently disagree with M2's viewpoints as described below. Was really worth scuffling over til recent. 

M2 thinks that hand jobs are for inexperienced 'girls' who are learning the ropes or women who are bad in bed. 

I disagree with all of that nonsense. All of it. A great handjob makes me happily hyperventilate. 

The last few times we connected - afterwards I noticed M2's stomach was upset. After two in a row I sharply - nay - insistently steered us towards a manual completion technique. She complained - asked if there was someone else. I explained. She denied having any indigestion from - well - you know. I just shrugged and ignored her statements as I knew what I knew. 

Nauseate your partner - repeatedly - and you'll end up giving yourself hand jobs. 








Holdingontoit said:


> @MEM2020: another caveat. I am not talking about cases where the LD had a workable sex drive and then a medical condition arose that made sex less pleasurable. I am talking about cases where the person was never into sex or stopped for a non-medical reason and refuses to make changes to their routine and the way the couple has sex. A LD with a medical condition who works to make sex workable is a very different case.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> M2 thinks that hand jobs are for inexperienced 'girls' who are learning the ropes or women who are bad in bed.


A good hand-job is an art ... worth learning.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Red Sonja said:


> A good hand-job is an art ... worth learning.


Indeed. Just because a teenagers first sexual contact is usually with a hand rather than a penis or vagina doesn't mean it's just for kids who can't do the real thing. Hands can be amazing. All those individual digits can do things "the real thing" can't. Hands can add real variety to a well rounded sexual relationship. It should never be the only option, but it should always be an item on the menu.


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I am a woman and have been married twice. My first husband and I were constantly having sex and very experimental but we were also connected emotionally, there was just this sexual charge between us. I wanted him as much as he wanted me and we could not get enough of one another. Outside of the bedroom we were very huggy, kissy and did so much together. My second marriage was not even close to what I experienced in my first marriage. Perhaps we were both burned by of divorces and we strangely came together? We were more like friends and we did not have that sexual intimacy like I had with my first husband. I felt I could have but he was emotionally distant and because of that emotional disconnect and the choices he made for himself and his own interests, my interest in him dissolved. I hear people say they married their best friend, all well and fine as long as that best friend is meeting all your needs. Otherwise you are just coexisting.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> M2 thinks that hand jobs are for inexperienced 'girls' who are learning the ropes or women who are bad in bed.


My third most significant long term sexual relationship was with a woman who was excellent at sex (a trait she shares with my ex-wife and wife) and was also very experienced, having had more sexual partners than I and also having been a sex worker in Japan for a time. As it turned out she knew how to do an extraordinarily impressive hand job.

That said I have always found (receiving) all stand alone hand jobs to be extremely boring, so I choose not to have them. Incidentally she only gave me one since I don't care for them, she just wanted to see if she could convince me otherwise.



MEM2020 said:


> Nauseate your partner - repeatedly - and you'll end up giving yourself hand jobs.


Indeed.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I love hand jobs!

Much better that using your own hand.

Or trying to make love to your wife wincing in pain. Now thats a bonner killer. Yuck.




My wife is also starting to have pain just after starting. Last night she tried to finish ne off with a hand job and it felt great but I couldn't cum . It was like I was on the verge for 15mins. But no climax. 

I took care of her oraly before we started . I think a strong orgasm for her might contribute to her pain. I'm not sure because her discomfort has just started recently. Shes 50 and only has a couple periods a year.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> My wife is also starting to have pain just after starting. Last night she tried to finish ne off with a hand job and it felt great but I couldn't cum . It was like I was on the verge for 15mins. But no climax.


Ugh, that’s me nowadays. I can’t seem to cum. It’s not her as she could always get me off manually, not anymore. I must work on that, it’s an important skill. 



chillymorn69 said:


> I'm not sure because her discomfort has just started recently. Shes 50 and only has a couple periods a year.


What helps my wife (55 no more periods) is starting out really slow and gently for the first 10 or so thrusts. I think it really just to properly spread the lube.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@mem2020: thank you for sharing such intimate details of your marriage. FWIW, I agree with you. Hand jobs are very much for experienced women to give to older men. More experience makes them much better. Inexperienced girls get away with bad HJs because young men are inexperienced and tend to finish quickly so the girl never realized that her technique is nothing special.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> I'm not sure because her discomfort has just started recently. Shes 50 and only has a couple periods a year.


The pain could be to the lessening hormones in her body and therefore her vaginal tissues. Tell her to ask her doctor about Vagifem, it is a 2X per week tiny insertable tablet of estrogen that puts the hormone right where it is needed.

Google vaginal atrophy during menopause. Vagifem restores the vaginal tissues back to normal (inside and out) without going on systemic hormone replacement therapy.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to that Red. 

We have transitioned almost entirely to hand jobs at my insistence. 

This way I don't have to lie in bed at night crying about how I'm causing M2 digestive distress.....





Red Sonja said:


> A good hand-job is an art ... worth learning.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

chillymorn69 said:


> I love hand jobs!


to each their own.

I get lots of oral sex where my wife often gives me a prostrate massage as part of it well. Likewise when freshly showered she will sometimes rim me as well, and when my balls are bare she will put them in her mouth as well. She will also lube me from herself and will give me oral sex after I have been inside her as well.

Then to finish she will either swallow my ejaculate straight, or play with it in her mouth, then let some drool out and then show me before finally swallowing it. Or she will instead hold it in her mouth before drooling it slowly onto each breast, sometimes she misses but she does sometimes hit her nipples as well. Or she will take facials with her mouth open so some gets in her mouth as well, then take me in her mouth after that to finish off.

She also kindly doesn't mind me taking the odd picture or filming it on occasion, while she does that or of her face and breasts after she has been glazed before she cleans up.

Except for the film and photograph side of things, plus the rimming and prostrate massage thing which I have only done with my wife, all of the rest has been the norm for all of the women I have been with for more than a few weeks ever since I was 17.

Since I get all of that and much more a hand job seems really pedestrian to me, so I am just not interested in them.

Incidentally early into when my wife (47) and I (46) started dating when she was 26 and I was 25, she confessed that she had no idea what she was doing when it came to oral sex and she was embarrassed by not knowing since she said before me she hadn't done it before. So I just told her that it was okay and that I will help her to learn along the way.

..................

What constitutes bad sex is entirely subjective, personally I find the rest of the relationship outside of sex is a big factor in getting to share and enjoy great sex. That said talent, ability, desire and willingness also make a huge difference as well.

Likewise just because one tends to share great sex all of the time doesn't mean they sometimes have flat days either. Through 21+ years with my wife, we have infrequently sometimes found the sex we shared was sub-par even when we both orgasmed. The nice thing for us though is when the sex has sucked, we have both had no hesitation in saying so and finding we both felt the same way about it.

If the sex frequently sucked or was just okay (in other words we orgasmed yet it was just so) I am sure my wife and I would stop wanting to share it. Fortunately for us so far we have been lucky in that generally it is great and is often awesome. To the point that awesome, sees both of us want to share more sex with each other because of it.

My wife and I minimise bad sex by not having fragile egos, by having external lives apart from each other and by not being co-dependant. By not putting each other on pedestals, by flirting and dating one another, by putting our sexual relationship before our children in terms of importance.

By knowing how to titillate each other, by being adventurous and very willing sexually, by being good at sex, by telling it how it is when the sex sometimes sux or something doesn't work. By still learning about each other, by not thinking we know how the other will react to something new. By still having our own privacy, yet at the same time not hiding stuff either.

By sharing sex solely for the pleasure of it without any guilt, not because we owe it to each other or ought to share that sex because we are married or whatever. By being selfish lovers who are self seeking and are desirous of what we want because of how it makes us feel when we get off, which as a consequence makes each of us feel desired sexually which is exciting while mutually getting off.

We also don't get it when people mention having sex for validation, since who cares about validation when it should come down to how it makes you tingle all over and inside. Wanting sex for validation seems like a recipe for bad sex to me.

Aside from having children together, my sexual relationship with my wife is pretty much the same it was when we were dating in terms of keeping it fresh. In part because over time we introduce new things and mix them up and let things go for a while and then come back to them, to keep our sexual relationship fresh and exciting.

The longer we have been together the better the sex has become in terms of quality and variety. For example anal sex started 19½ years ago, cum facials on her started 20 years ago, prostrate massage for me started 15 years ago, me giving my wife golden showers has only been the past 5 years.

Likewise yesterday my wife and I visited a gallery that had many sculptures and paintings of nude women, at one point I was taking a picture of my wife next to one of those statues in the garden and she pulled out one of her breasts (while wearing a light dress sans bra) without my asking for it or suggesting it in any way, so I could get some shots of her like that. Later that day at my request she then took her knickers off and walked around the shops in that light dress with nothing on underneath. Doing this has only happened through the past 6 years.

For us sex throughout marriage is and has always been pretty awesome.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Ok, we basically have the same thing in mind then.




Holdingontoit said:


> In the moment. Yes, eventually if my spouse continues to view me in a negative light there may be negative consequences. But I am not going to hold it against her in the moment. I am not going to get angry. I am not going to yell and scream. I am not going to start arguing that you are wrong. I am not going to lecture you about what an ungrateful wretch you are (even if that is what I think). In the moment, I am calmly going to thank you for sharing your inner truth and respecting me enough to be honest with me.
> 
> If you want to hear truth, at the very least you have to promise not to jump down their throat when they dare to share it with you.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She's great at it. 

I think she's just bummed that this is in addition to the lack of piv.





Red Sonja said:


> A good hand-job is an art ... worth learning.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

God I hate handjobs. My wife is terrible at it. Makes me cringe. It’s actually quite painful. She thinks she’s turning me on. Meanwhile I’m holding my breath and literally gritting my teeth. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

^^^

Why don't you just tell her she sucks at it with the how and why, so she can test and adjust accordingly?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Take one of her fingers and SHOW her what you like / don't like. 





Personal said:


> ^^^
> 
> Why don't you just tell her she sucks at it with the how and why, so she can test and adjust accordingly?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ive been married 25 years. I’ve tried all the easy things hundreds of times. Now I’m just not interested. The time has come to just push away. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

I'm right there too. 25 years married and trying to get to the point where I no longer am interested in sex. She's overweight and lazy in bed anyways so I'm getting there.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> God I hate handjobs. My wife is terrible at it. Makes me cringe. It’s actually quite painful. She thinks she’s turning me on. Meanwhile I’m holding my breath and literally gritting my teeth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Tell me about it! *

My wife will literally pull so hard on the upstroke that she will rip part of my foreskin from the frenulum and create a painful sore that will take days to heal. I have tried so many many times to explain how to not do that, to be gentle and she just continues the same harsh way that I avoid them like the plague.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> *Tell me about it! *
> 
> My wife will literally pull so hard on the upstroke that she will rip part of my foreskin from the frenulum and create a painful sore that will take days to heal. I have tried so many many times to explain how to not do that, to be gentle and she just continues the same harsh way that I avoid them like the plague.


Handjobs are such a personal preference thing though. I suck at giving _my husband _ hand jobs because he likes them with a harder grip and a faster pace than I am capable of providing consistently for the period of time he needs. As crazy as it might sound to you, I think he'd find your wife's method pleasurable to him. All of this to say your wife doesn't necessarily suck at hand jobs, but her method is mismatched to your preference



Personal said:


> ^^^
> 
> Why don't you just tell her she sucks at it with the how and why, so she can test and adjust accordingly?


This made me laugh @Personal. It reminded me of when my husband told me I "sucked" at giving hand jobs (he didn't use those words but I knew what he was trying to say). I listened to him attentively and then let out a huge sigh of relief. I laughingly asked him "does that mean I don't have to do that again?" I recommended we stop torturing him with my crappy handjobs and focus on the 101 OTHER sex acts at which I do not suck. 




Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sounds like we need an accelerometer / telemetry solution


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I tend to be lite on graphic details - a little shy maybe. 

However - in this case I am going to be very detailed. 

1. I have a strong desire to control the pace. So M2 lies on her back I put a large soft towel on her tummy/chest and put olive oil on her hands. 
2. She makes a tunnel with one hand and uses her other hands to play ball(s)
3. I rock back and forth fast as I like
4. I've taught her to squeeze slightly harder when I am pulling out the tunnel than pushing into it

That produces an exceptionally fine sensation






john117 said:


> Sounds like we need an accelerometer / telemetry solution


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Olive oil isn't known for its lubrication quality ...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I tend to be lite on graphic details - a little shy maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The biggest deal breaker in that description is the towel. Seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Olive oil isn't known for its lubrication quality ...


Ya, coconut oil would be much better!


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

My husband really likes handjobs. He frequently chooses them over PIV and even oral.

Sometimes I can't get the rhythm right for him to overcome his ED, but one great thing about hands is that it's really easy to provide very different sensations, amounts of pressure, areas of stimulation. Plus I have two of them.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@MEM2020: I agree with you that one of the basic tools to minimize bad sex is to refuse to have bad sex. Openly discuss when it is bad, and communicate to your spouse how to make it better. If your spouse clearly isn't into sex during a particular session, stop having sex and have sex some other time when your spouse is into it.

One dynamic likely to increase bad sex is accepting bad sex from your partner - making it clear that one's own orgasm trumps how one's partner feels about the experience. Once you send a clear message of selfishness and lack of caring, hard to have great sex with that person.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding,

I have made no secret about the skill gap between me and M2 in bed. This is something I have freely acknowledged with her - from the beginning and have openly shared on TAM. I am not embarrassed by it - within the four walls of our home or on TAM. It is simply a fact. I'm better at racket sports and cooking, she is better at sex and organizational activities. 

It is also true that those differences are amplified in certain contexts. Our male/female physiology makes those inherent differences larger on a tennis court and on a bed because it is inherently easier for her to make sex better for me just as my size strength advantages play a large role on a tennis court. 

That said - our gaps go far beyond simple size/strength - testosterone levels. Tennis gaps are amplified by size and strength. Ping pong is a whole different game and yet I easily beat her playing right handed (despite being a lefty). I'm better at ping pong not because I'm a man. I'm better at ping pong because I'm better at ping pong. Or more generally because I'm better at racket sports. 

And that's the point. She isn't ONLY better at sex because she's a woman. She's better at sex because she's better at sex. 

The reason for all that preamble is this. I don't react negatively to M2's level of arousal. It is what it is and I accept whatever I get in that dimension of our encounters. But I wouldn't tolerate a low level of engagement as that is an entirely different factor. 

So - when people talk about 'bad' sex - engagement - is sort of my singular focus. 

To frame it more precisely - I remember the One (1) - singular yes it only happened one time - encounter - where M2 wasn't really engaged. I was so shocked that - I didn't say anything. But afterwards I thought - if that ever happens again I'm going to stop mid stream and end the encounter. 

But it never did. 

The point is - that - M2 would react very very badly to me reacting negatively to her arousal level. But I am fairly certain she would 100 percent understand me reacting to her having a low engagement level. 

Ultimately - that's the magic in our bedroom. I'm nowhere near as good as she is at being a great sexual partner. But I'm very good at not producing a 'bad' sexual experience for her. 

A statistician would draw this as a very asymmetric bell curve.... 





Holdingontoit said:


> @MEM2020: I agree with you that one of the basic tools to minimize bad sex is to refuse to have bad sex. Openly discuss when it is bad, and communicate to your spouse how to make it better. If your spouse clearly isn't into sex during a particular session, stop having sex and have sex some other time when your spouse is into it.
> 
> One dynamic likely to increase bad sex is accepting bad sex from your partner - making it clear that one's own orgasm trumps how one's partner feels about the experience. Once you send a clear message of selfishness and lack of caring, hard to have great sex with that person.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> 
> I have made no secret about the skill gap between me and M2 in bed. This is something I have freely acknowledged with her - from the beginning and have openly shared on TAM. I am not embarrassed by it - within the four walls of our home or on TAM. It is simply a fact. I'm better at racket sports and cooking, she is better at sex and organizational activities.
> 
> ...


Great post, Mem. I totally get it. If a sex partner wasn't truly engaged with me...even one time...I would know it and would never have sex like that again. Either it never happened again, or I'd be out the next time it did.

True engagement during sex is a requirement for good sex. For me. Nothing less. Ever. Otherwise, meh. I don't need another body involved to have a disengaged sexual experience. I only open up my own body to people who can be fully present with me and fully intimate. 

I once had a guy lined up to be my perfect sex buddy. Someone who was extremely sexual but due to circumstances didn't have time for a relationship. I was in similar circumstances and we talked through a sex buddy type of arrangement.

We made out a few times and there was definitely passion. I felt ok on other fronts to go ahead and try out the sex, so we did. If the sex went well, we had all kinds of plans for how fun our sex buddy thing could go.

The sex was ok...and I mean that on the positive side of ok. But in the middle of sex, our eyes met and ...he quickly turned his eyes away. Like embarrassed that he got caught looking at me.

I understand that first time sex deserves a break and sometimes we are so worked up we aren't at our best performance. Usually three or four times helps you find your groove together.

But I also knew in that instant that this guy couldn't connect in the most intimate moments. And even with a sex buddy, I would need connection and engagement.

Without any connection, my body simply won't function sexually. Just eerrrrrrcccccchhhhhhhh (screeching car brakes noise). Dead. Done. Body is not responding.

So after that one time I kind of made excuses to not see the guy for a few weeks...and then I met my boyfriend. Since the guy and I were sex buddies only he was totally cool when I said I was seeing someone exclusively and later that he was my boyfriend.

He said please let me know if you break up, I would love to see you again. 

I know that part of him knows it was that break in eye contact and he wants another try.

But even if I was single again I wouldn't give him another try. Because it either comes naturally or it doesn't. And it didn't.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

I'm certain you are very attractive - physically because your posts come from a place that cannot be synthesized by someone who doesn't - have that physical profile. 

It's also true that what amplifies the hell out of your appeal - is the ability to describe your experiences - regardless of their polarity (joyous, neutral, painful). This is a gift - you either have it or you don't. You do. M2 has it. 

I only half have it. 

As unpopular as it is - this next bit is entirely true. Outside the bedroom I got a little bit short changed. There are a few areas where M2 simply can't keep up with me. But it is also true that inside the bedroom - she got a bit short changed. I am quite simply not her equal. I said this once - to her. In the spirit of an apology. I said: I am not quite right for you - I truly wish that I was - but I'm not. 

She looked at me - a bit stunned and was quiet. I'm not an idiot. You don't open a door like that, unless you are prepared to walk through it. So after a long pause I said: It is why I do just about everything I can outside the bedroom to compensate.

And that's why our marriage works. I don't pretend we have parity inside or outside the bedroom. We don't. Inside the bedroom we have a large gap. This isn't caused by a lack of effort. And outside the bedroom we have an equally large divide which also isn't caused by a lack of effort on her part. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Great post, Mem. I totally get it. If a sex partner wasn't truly engaged with me...even one time...I would know it and would never have sex like that again. Either it never happened again, or I'd be out the next time it did.
> 
> True engagement during sex is a requirement for good sex. For me. Nothing less. Ever. Otherwise, meh. I don't need another body involved to have a disengaged sexual experience. I only open up my own body to people who can be fully present with me and fully intimate.
> 
> ...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

My mind is blown. Bad sex from one break in eye contact? By that definition, I've probably never had anything but bad sex. 

It strikes me that we all mean very different things by "bad sex", "fully engaged", "aroused", "connected", "intimate".
@MEM2020, I'm really curious. Why do you say M2 is such a great sex partner, and you not? And what does it mean to say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> My mind is blown. Bad sex from one break in eye contact? By that definition, I've probably never had anything but bad sex.
> 
> It strikes me that we all mean very different things by "bad sex", "fully engaged", "aroused", "connected", "intimate".
> 
> @MEM2020, I'm really curious. Why do you say M2 is such a great sex partner, and you not? And what does it mean to say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?


I may not have explained very well. There was no eye contact at all, which was odd in itself. And then the one moment he did make eye contact with me, he literally yanked his eyes away from mine as if startled by it. Before he did that I hadn't really noticed the lack of eye contact because my eyes were mostly softly closed. The way he startled and looked away when we did meet eyes once and only once is what I'm talking about. It was weird.

As I said, the sex itself was on the higher side of "ok". But him being unable to make any eye contact during sex at all made it a no thanks for me, ever again.

If someone made constant eye contact with me that would probably be weird for me too. I've never experienced that. I'm used to just holding eye contact periodically on and off during sex, as comes naturally.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks for all the raw honesty on this thread.

So here is my confession. H2 never engaged in sex. And I knew it. And I continued to have sex with her anyway.

I didn't know why. I didn't know about the rapes. I didn't know what dissociation meant. But that is no excuse. You guys all seemed to know instinctively that unengaged sex was wrong.

I was so selfish and so horny and so inexperienced (at age 30) that it never occurred to me to stop. Even when we joked out loud that she was somewhere else during sex and could I go visit her there sometime.

So I deserve to be in my predicament. And I will stay until death do us part. Because there is no amount of loving behavior I can confer on her that will repay my debt to my humanity.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In what way is she "better"? How do you measure?

Certainly some people are better in bed than others, but have you made an effort to improve yourself? Some of being a good lover is natural, but a combination of actively doing your best to please your partner, and learning about a wide range of things to try will help.







MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> 
> I have made no secret about the skill gap between me and M2 in bed. This is something I have freely acknowledged with her - from the beginning and have openly shared on TAM.
> snip


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

wild jade said:


> My mind is blown. Bad sex from one break in eye contact? By that definition, I've probably never had anything but bad sex.
> 
> It strikes me that we all mean very different things by "bad sex", "fully engaged", "aroused", "connected", "intimate".
> 
> @MEM2020, I'm really curious. Why do you say M2 is such a great sex partner, and you not? And what does it mean to say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?


Right? My thoughts, too. I am very very much a no-eye-contact person. I must be terrible in bed! I also truly wish to understand this concept of fully engaged and "connected". It seems a bit mystical and fairy tale to me, but most likely I am just dense or as I said, absolutely terrible in bed. I find sex to be 99% physical and that's about it (regardless of partner), just doesn't do anything for me emotionally and never has. 



Holdingontoit said:


> Thanks for all the raw honesty on this thread.
> 
> So here is my confession. H2 never engaged in sex. And I knew it. And I continued to have sex with her anyway.
> 
> ...


I don't think your assessment is fair, Holding. I don't "engage" per this threads definition either, and honestly the thought never occurred to me that it was even a basic requirement to do so, and I am NOT inexperienced. I also have no trauma history. I don't consider any sexual encounter I've ever had to be rape, most especially not with my husband. I'd bet your wife is the same, even with her trauma history. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I may not have explained very well. There was no eye contact at all, which was odd in itself. And then the one moment he did make eye contact with me, he literally yanked his eyes away from mine as if startled by it. Before he did that I hadn't really noticed the lack of eye contact because my eyes were mostly softly closed. The way he startled and looked away when we did meet eyes once and only once is what I'm talking about. It was weird.
> 
> As I said, the sex itself was on the higher side of "ok". But him being unable to make any eye contact during sex at all made it a no thanks for me, ever again.
> 
> If someone made constant eye contact with me that would probably be weird for me too. I've never experienced that. I'm used to just holding eye contact periodically on and off during sex, as comes naturally.


Interesting. Yes, I can see why that would be a bit unsettling. I wonder if it's because you'd both already decided that it was a sex only relationship?

IME, despite a lot of talk of no strings sex, a lot of guys actually aren't very good at handling it. He may have thought FBs shouldn't be getting too intimate?

Personally, I think I'm more like @kag123. I'm not really into the whole eye-gazing thing. Sex is down and dirty, and most positions don't allow for much eye-gazing anyway. And those times when I have been watching him, he seems pretty glazed over too. I always took that as a good thing!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I may not have explained very well. There was no eye contact at all, which was odd in itself. And then the one moment he did make eye contact with me, he literally yanked his eyes away from mine as if startled by it. Before he did that I hadn't really noticed the lack of eye contact because my eyes were mostly softly closed. The way he startled and looked away when we did meet eyes once and only once is what I'm talking about. It was weird.
> ...


That is just as fascinating to me too, to hear about people who don't necessarily get an emotional component out of having sex. For me I just can't fathom it. And I'm as down as dirty as you can get. I just also need a real connection and intimacy. Several other posters have explained that they are not into sex for the emotional component, including Personal and MrsHolland, so I do understand that it is quite common and we are not all the same. What works for me has no bearing on what works for others and vice versa.

With the potential sex buddy guy, it absolutely could be that he didn't feel a connection was important for that type of arrangement and I had no problem with that. It did not hurt my feelings or make me feel devalued at all. It was just something I knew I could not continue.

I have only had one other sex buddy type of arrangement. It did not last long, it was fun while it lasted. We did not feel deep emotions or love for each other but we enjoyed it for what it was. Our play time included tons of talking, teasing, playing. These things are part of where the connection comes in. And there was great eye contact and engagement during them. 

But the way you are using the words eye gazing...I don't think for me it's what you think it is. Eye contact versus love struck star gazing are different things. The guy I just described, we never once "gazed" into each other's eyes yet we had tons of natural and easy and appropriate eye contact. Like I said most of our play time was spent talking and teasing. Kinda hard to talk to someone without eye contact.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> .....But the way you are using the words eye gazing...I don't think for me it's what you think it is. Eye contact versus love struck star gazing are different things. The guy I just described, we never once "gazed" into each other's eyes yet we had tons of natural and easy and appropriate eye contact. Like I said most of our play time was spent talking and teasing. Kinda hard to talk to someone without eye contact.


I am a huge fan of Dr. David Schnarch.

An interview with Dr David Schnarch - The Sex Therapist

Perhaps the following from a Schnarch interview will help explain a bit of what might be going on.


LOVE / Sex
An interview with Dr David Schnarch - The Sex Therapist
Sep 28, 2007


Connection
Q. In Passionate Marriage you discuss at length what you call "tools for connection." What are these "tools" and why are they important to couples?

A. Amazing as it seems, many couples are not in emotional contact while they are having physical contact. They may both reach orgasm but they are emotionally isolated. I have developed a number of "tools for connection." New ways to establish deep emotional connection in and out of bed. I encourage couples to forget about technique, and "follow the connection" during sex to know what to do next. We also suggest hugging 'til relaxed, eyes open sex, and even eyes open orgasm.

Q. What is eyes-open sex and eyes-open orgasm? And why are these important?

A. In informal surveys I've conducted around the world, it seems that only about 15-30% of all couples have sex with their eyes open, and only about half that number can orgasm that way. This means that most people have to shut their eyes to "tune out" their partner in order to be able to orgasm. Many people like sex in the dark with eyes closed because it's a way of keeping intimacy during sex to a tolerable level, not because it's more romantic. The intimacy and passion many couples seek is hiding right under -- or actually right above -- their noses.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> I am a huge fan of Dr. David Schnarch.
> 
> An interview with Dr David Schnarch - The Sex Therapist
> 
> ...


This. 
I LOVE this. 
I have been trying to say this all along, but hey, I'm no expert. 

Sounds like I need to get me hands on some Schnarch!


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This.
> I LOVE this.
> I have been trying to say this all along, but hey, I'm no expert.
> 
> Sounds like I need to get me hands on some Schnarch!


Reading Passionate Marriage is worse than any graduate school textbook. A tough read.
The Crucible is a little better and Intimacy & Desire is also better.

Be careful for what you wish for as you may get it.

Once upon a time, during sex therapy with my wife, she commented that she wanted more intimacy.:smile2:

So I got my copy of Passionate Marriage and opened it to the section on ways to develop intimacy. I gave it to her to read. She read it and studied it and then another day told me she wanted more intimacy, but not that much intimacy. The exercises were just too much for her.

One of the keys to Scharch's approach is something he calls "self-soothing."

His view is that many things in marriage stretch you to lengths that cause you to be uncomfortable and that the way you get yourself to do those things is by breaking them down into small components, and practicing them until you can master some of the components. Then you put them together, take a deep breath, think of England, and self-sooth as you do the whole thing.

Good luck.

He has a really fascinating view of marriage.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Reading Passionate Marriage is worse than any graduate school textbook. A tough read.
> The Crucible is a little better and Intimacy & Desire is also better.
> 
> Be careful for what you wish for as you may get it.
> ...


Thanks for the additional recommendations!

My wife most definitely doesn't like to go outside her comfort zone, so breaking things down to much smaller, more manageable components seems wise.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Eye contact versus love struck star gazing are different things.


Yup, my wife hates the latter, but I am naturally inclined towards that. I love looking and taking it in, but usually know her line.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yeti and YAH...I was thinking about the comments earlier on this thread from posters who say they do not go for that connection and in some cases, sex for them is not an emotional event, just physical.

Then YAH with the Scnarch info and his wife's reaction to what the PM book suggests for intimacy and that being too much for her.

I think there are a few different things going for different people. Schnarch addresses intimacy exercises and explains how many people actually avoid intimacy because it can actually be "too much" for them and he feels that more intimacy is usually a good thing to strive for.

But the other posters here sharing their experiences, I don't think they are necessarily intimacy avoiders. I think what they are saying is the type of connection that we are describing is not arousing for them. They may be feeling completely intimate but it just doesn't reveal itself for them in the ways some of us and Schnarch is describing.

And then there are certainly people who are completely checked out during sex. Mostly we hear the HD spouse describe this. I think in many of those cases, the spouse may be capable of and even desire more connection and intimacy, but they either aren't into their spouse anymore or hold resentment or whatever other issues and are not willing to become more connected or intimate during sex. 

When we all have such different needs and desires in this area, I don't think that the Schnarch way is right for some people. And not because there is anything wrong with them at all, they just feel more aroused by other things.

It's hard to know how much of what some of us are talking about as far as connection is actually a thing that is desired by the majority of us. Maybe it isn't? I've heard some posters talk about their great sex lives and how much they love sex and their spouse, even though "connection" or emotional closeness isn't what does it for them.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeti and YAH...I was thinking about the comments earlier on this thread from posters who say they do not go for that connection and in some cases, sex for them is not an emotional event, just physical.
> 
> Then YAH with the Scnarch info and his wife's reaction to what the PM book suggests for intimacy and that being too much for her.
> 
> ...


I think you're right--this is not a one size fits all kind of thing. 

My wife's not really into the eye contact thing during--I don't think she's deliberately avoiding intimacy, it's just that it can be a distraction from what's happening down there--and she really needs to be able to concentrate on that to get off. The last thing I want to do is distract her when she's trying to get what is for her, the most out of the experience.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Another case where magical powers are attributed to a book. 

90% is getting the other side to realize they need to change. By the time they see a therapist, agree to read the book,and engage in corrective action success is rather predictable.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Another case where magical powers are attributed to a book.
> 
> 90% is getting the other side to realize they need to change. By the time they see a therapist, agree to read the book,and engage in corrective action success is rather predictable.


Thinking that you can change another person is the downfall there. It can't be done. "Corrective action" implies needing a correction and therefore, without correction their actions are "wrong".

If you haven't accepted that a mismatch has occurred and neither side is "right", you will continue to struggle with your reality.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You must be reading words I didn't write... Getting someone to realize they need to change is not changing them.

Getting someone to take "corrective action" does not imply "wrong", rather, it implies an improvement or a change in direction. Human behavior is not multiple choice.

Also, a mismatch is not a terminal condition, and often one person in a mismatch is "right". I'm sure you can come up with an example or ten. 

Finally, in many cases people don't take "corrective action" because they feel they are "right", rather, it's their natural predisposition to not emphasize.

Dr. S's books are generally pretty good, but there's a lot of conditioning in their sample space, to be honest.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Also, a mismatch is not a terminal condition, and often one person in a mismatch is "right". I'm sure you can come up with an example or ten.


Well no, actually. I feel a mismatch is a terminal condition and it usually creates so much damage that the marriage and/or the sex life literally dies as a result. I also don't know of any mismatched couples where one person is "right".

Everyone is right about their own sexuality. If theirs doesn't match yours, neither one is right. You are simply different and mismatched.

Those who are sexually well matched don't have the same issues that those who are sexually mismatched have, and there are plenty of well matched posters on TAM to show this fact. 

I do know of many who were in a mismatched relationship at one time and at other times were in wonderfully matched relationships and those people tend to see their mismatched relationship as terminal and the matched relationships as workable.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

David Schnarch video

Youtube
Big Think Interview With David Schnarch


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Any mismatch is terminal?

Brrrr.

(Sexual mismatches probably are)


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I don't think your assessment is fair, Holding. I don't "engage" per this threads definition either, and honestly the thought never occurred to me that it was even a basic requirement to do so, and I am NOT inexperienced. I also have no trauma history. I don't consider any sexual encounter I've ever had to be rape, most especially not with my husband. I'd bet your wife is the same, even with her trauma history.


Could be. No way to know at this point.
What I mean by "not engaged" is trying to convince yourself you are not there and what is happening to your body isn't happening. Different than closing your eyes and focusing on the sensations or on the fantasy going on in your head so you can reach orgasm. I don't mean lack of communication with your partner. I mean trying to ignore what is happening to your body. Not telling your partner to be quiet because it distracts you from how good the sex feels. Telling your partner to be quiet because you are trying to ignore that you are in the room with them having sex.
Is that what you mean when you say you do not "engage"?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Any mismatch is terminal?
> 
> Brrrr.
> 
> (Sexual mismatches probably are)


No. I've heard of IRL and here at TAM about mismatched couples who deliberately worked a solution. YAH is one. Not as common as it being terminal, I would say.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> kag123 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think your assessment is fair, Holding. I don't "engage" per this threads definition either, and honestly the thought never occurred to me that it was even a basic requirement to do so, and I am NOT inexperienced. I also have no trauma history. I don't consider any sexual encounter I've ever had to be rape, most especially not with my husband. I'd bet your wife is the same, even with her trauma history.
> ...


That's disassociation not disengagement.

But I know you know that.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> I am a huge fan of Dr. David Schnarch.
> 
> An interview with Dr David Schnarch - The Sex Therapist
> 
> ...


Huh. This doesn't feel right to me. I don't "tune out" my husband. I have two modes, I think. One feels like we're melting together, the other is more about letting fantasy enhance the experience. 

But it's usually eyes closed, or eyes glazed, or eyes on the task at hand, or looking out in the direction that I happen to be facing, not really eye contact. And it's definitely physical. I suspect he bonds to me through sex much more than I bond to him that way. I just like how it feels.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Handy said:


> David Schnarch video
> 
> Youtube
> Big Think Interview With David Schnarch


There was no link on your post, but I looked up and watched the video anyway. Maybe this one will work:






I've read a couple of his books and so it was a refresher for me. I think the same thing I thought when I originally read the books...that there is an element that is not discussed here. By Schnarch or really any other sex therapist (Perel, etc).

They fail to address the very real existence and relevance of having a sexually well matched union, and what the sex life of THOSE couples looks like. This video literally did not address this at all. He made a brief mention about how some couples can seem to still knock boots even in the midst of marital turmoil, but then immediately says that this is a kind of empty sex ultimately.

Ok but look...I am a highly sexual person and have been in both well matched and mismatched sexual relationships. It is not a coincident nor a matter of love or emotions involved that those well matched relationships had better, more and far more intimate sex than the mismatched ones. Factoring in all other relationship issues doesn't matter in the least. A well matched sexual relationship will hands down have more and better sex than a mismatched one!

Conversely, I know people IRL and have read stories of couples who are BOTH LD, or in some way they are both at the same "level" with regard to their sexuality, and they are very happy in that department of their relationship. Example: parents of my bff growing up. Her mother told us both everything, EVERYTHING about her relationship with my bff's father. They definitely loved each other, but it was no longer a romantic love by the time they were in their late 40's and had 5 kids. They were both tired and just slogging along until retirement. We could see this was true in their behavior. However they had a deep familial love and a strong friendship and shared companionship (what little of it there was). And they had a regular sex pattern. About once a month. They slept in separate rooms but he would come to hers on that one night per month, they would have some sex which she said was "satisfying" (literally said that word), and other than that, they did not show physical affection other than a rare peck on the cheek on special occasions. I did though, after reflecting when I was a bit older, see a twinkle in both of their eyes for each other once in awhile. I felt it between them, even then. It was not a hot, strong sexual thing. It was a respectful and admiring thing combined with some sexual relief and maybe even gratitude (in what seemed like a healthy way). My point in sharing this is....they were a match. And so their sex life was mutually satisfying. What to some HD people would seem like a total hell to live in (once a month?!?! a peck on the cheek!?!?!?) was to them welcomed and wanted just the way it was.

Then there are the countless couples I know and have read about that have rockin' sex lives BECAUSE they are a good match. Other parts of their relationships could be going sideways and they may not even be able to save the relationship...but the sex is still good throughout and not in the cold way Schnarch implied in that video. This was me and my ex-h. But I know many other couples who do weather out their other problems and were anchored by the great WELL MATCHED sexually fulfilling relationship they shared.

When posters at TAM who are in a mismatched sexual relationship are trying to enact change...I of course want them to try everything they can think of to save their relationships...however, if it is an obvious mismatch, I normally just cringe and wait for the inevitable realization that it is most likely terminal to the relationship (or at least to the sexual relationship that both spouses actually wanted).

There are sometimes posters who are actually well matched, and are just "off" for some reason with their partner. These couples have some hope. It is the WELL MATCHED part that is so important, that all these sex therapists don't talk about. Why not study the WELL MATCHED couples and find out more about this? Why not expose people to the idea that hey...maybe you don't have a great sex life with this person but you could with someone else? Or even with ANYONE else, because this person is such a poor match with you? I mean, it is just so disenheartening to read HD spouses on TAM talking about the beating their self esteem is taking because of their mismatched sex life. This shouldn't be the case!! It should be understood that a mismatch is not just a marital issue that can be resolved with counseling and it does not mean that you are ugly, a bad lover, or any of the other self loathing words that people end up feeling in those situations. It means that neither of you are right or wrong, you are just sexually wrong for each other.

I do love what Schnarch is saying about marriage, how it makes you grow, his ideas on love and expansion within marriage, etc. These are all excellent and loving concepts about marriage and very enlightening (and true, when you examine your own experience in or after a long term marriage). BUT...he is implying that most or all sexual relationships can improve to a great degree by simply applying more love and intimacy skills. And I don't think that is true. I think some relationships are so sadly mismatched that no amount of effort will ever change it, because it is like trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Counseling, love, marriage books....none of these change your basic sexual shape. 

The way that YAH has successfully applied concepts like these in his marriage and sex life is totally awesome and Schnarch has helped many other couples the same way. These couples are the ones who took the time to work through a mismatch AND all the other love and marriage issues that came along and worked with it until they found a viable solution.

But I would still like those couples to know...there are other people in the world you could have a well matched sex life with, and you could be living out the best sex life you could ever imagine if you were in one.

This fact is important. It is reality. We are not all intimacy broken, married sexual misfits, as is implied somewhat in this video and similar ones. Some of us are very well matched and we do not experience the strife in this area of our lives that you do. It is easy. It flows naturally. It is reciprocal. It is fulfilling. It is experimental and not restricted. It is healthy and clean and natural. It is welcomed. It is expected! It is fun. It adds to our well being. This is just as true for the parents of my bff (basically LD by most standards) and myself (HD by most standards). The MATCH part is what makes it work without effort.

I realize that people cannot go back in time and find new spouses who are a match and all of that...people are trying to work with what they have and that is a good thing when they are. But if you are truly mismatched, the sooner you realize this and work from THERE, the better. Because if your bottom line is "this changes or we divorce", then you will waste less time in realizing that trying to change someone's basic nature (yours or theirs) is fundamentally impossible...and it is also not very loving! It means you do not accept them at their core nature. And most mismatched couples instinctively realize they do not accept each other at that core level but they don't just say this to each other. They come here and say it instead.

It seems that something that is neither of your fault would be easier to face and admit. And then if like YAH you can work with it from there, knowing this mismatch exists and that neither of you will change your core sexuality level, then you've really got a special marriage. Most don't go this way though simply because overcoming that mismatch is so very difficult, even when both of you are willing to compromise.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It all comes down to comfort zone math. If a so called LD is married to a so called HD and a compromise is called upon, the LD could think that the compromise is merely a stepping stone into higher frequency and expanded variety they be uncomfortable with. I.e. against their built in SLA's. So, why compromise from 1x a month to 2x a month if you feel his end goal is 1x a week then 1x a day? Hence, reject any compromise.

Also, people change. What was great 20 years ago is now deviant behavior... Commensurate with disapproval by the morals of the day.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> It all comes down to comfort zone math. If a so called LD is married to a so called HD and a compromise is called upon, the LD could think that the compromise is merely a stepping stone into higher frequency and expanded variety they be uncomfortable with. I.e. against their built in SLA's. *So, why compromise from 1x a month to 2x a month if you feel his end goal is 1x a week then 1x a day?* Hence, reject any compromise.
> 
> Also, people change. What was great 20 years ago is now deviant behavior... Commensurate with disapproval by the morals of the day.


IMO, they should not "compromise" at all necessarily. Why should they go against their own nature? Why should they try to swim upstream just to make someone else happy? Sure, if they want to and choose to, that's great and we have examples like YAH to show how this can work.

But if given the choice, YAH's wife most likely would still prefer to have much less sex than they are currently having. So she has compromised, but her core has not changed. Nor will it. For her and YAH, this is sustainable and preferable to divorce or a sexless marriage. But their example does not reflect the majority. 

Is it really so horrible to not want to have to change your core nature? And to be realistic about the fact that you probably can't even if you compromise? And further to be realistic about the fact that making those compromises and changes is not something you even want to do, you basically are only doing it to make the other person happy, even while it makes you unhappy? Again sure you may do it and it may be worth it. But why would this be considered to be expected from someone? It is far beyond most people's ability, to change to the degree that would be required to find a workaround for a miserably sexually mismatched relationship.

Have you really not accepted yet that you are mismatched with her, John? Who cares why she is the way she is, she IS THAT WAY and you are different than she is....who cares why you are the way you are (in this context)? It really doesn't matter when you boil it down to the bottom line: a miserable mismatch.

Ok so she changed. So? She changed. You can't change the fact that she changed...even though everyone can empathize with you for the fact that she did. We can see how it affected you and where you are at now. But can't you see where you are at?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've seen some truth to this. It becomes a strange negotiation, as if giving any ground risks moving the treaty point. But there there is some truth to that - if the LD manages to go from once a month to once a week, the HD who wants once a day will still not be really happy so it may feel as if the "compromise" didn't get them anywhere except a new negotiating point. 





john117 said:


> It all comes down to comfort zone math. If a so called LD is married to a so called HD and a compromise is called upon, the LD could think that the compromise is merely a stepping stone into higher frequency and expanded variety they be uncomfortable with. I.e. against their built in SLA's. So, why compromise from 1x a month to 2x a month if you feel his end goal is 1x a week then 1x a day? Hence, reject any compromise.
> 
> Also, people change. What was great 20 years ago is now deviant behavior... Commensurate with disapproval by the morals of the day.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I've seen some truth to this. It becomes a strange negotiation, as if giving any ground risks moving the treaty point. But there there is some truth to that - if the LD manages to go from once a month to once a week, the HD who wants once a day will still not be really happy so it may feel as if the "compromise" didn't get them anywhere except a new negotiating point.


And still...even if all the stars align and there can be a new negotiating point...neither partner will be having the sex life they actually want to have.

Mismatch.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> IMO, they should not "compromise" at all necessarily. Why should they go against their own nature? Why should they try to swim upstream just to make someone else happy? Sure, if they want to and choose to, that's great and we have examples like YAH to show how this can work.
> 
> But if given the choice, YAH's wife most likely would still prefer to have much less sex than they are currently having. So she has compromised, but her core has not changed. Nor will it. For her and YAH, this is sustainable and preferable to divorce or a sexless marriage. But their example does not reflect the majority.
> 
> ...


Once again, you're reading words I didn't write. I ought to go into writing fiction, could out write Stephen King or something...

Life is all about compromise unless one is living in their own hoity-toity world and can comfortably ignore reality. The ability to judge pros and cons and adjust goes back to telling a toddler they can have dessert after brussel sprouts. 

"Compromise but core has not changed" sounds like code for ""I better play along or else I risk a lot more". That's by far the most common reason to compromise. One's core values are far more pervasive and unlikely to change, thus rendering a long term solution questionable. I agree, tho, they have looked at the alternative and compromised. Or else.

Changes to core nature - not compromises- can be made. And humans are darned good at changing quickly. We psychologists call it "adapt" or "evolve" or even "grow". Nothing unnatural about it. At life changing events, our response is to change and thrive, not stick to our broken record of Me Me Me. 

Think of every life changing events you ever had. Unless you're a trust fund recipient, you change core beliefs on many such events. You grow. When you have a baby your life turns upside down. You adapt, and you're generally better off for it. When you go to college. Serve in the armed forces. Volunteer a lot. Get a new job. Go to prison . Immigrate. As you make the new core belief set part of your experience your core itself is reset. Your mind is rewiring itself. 

A few so called core beliefs have been given a defacto pass from reality. Religion, sexuality... With the snow flake generation adding more by the hour. Oops.

I wasn't talking personally, or referring to my own experience incidentally. Gave up on it long time ago.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I've seen some truth to this. It becomes a strange negotiation, as if giving any ground risks moving the treaty point. But there there is some truth to that - if the LD manages to go from once a month to once a week, the HD who wants once a day will still not be really happy so it may feel as if the "compromise" didn't get them anywhere except a new negotiating point.


Yep. Even if the compromise works the LD is in mortal fear that the new standard is temporary, and the fear that ANY EFFORT OUTSIDE THE ACCEPTABLE RANGE THAT CAN BE PERCEIVED AS SEXUALLY DRIVEN WILL BE SEXUAL AND SHOULD BE REJECTED. That spells doom into most any relationship.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Easily handled 25 years into a marriage,I know


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression from YAH's story that it is about a lot more than compromise. He didn't just ask her to change -- he changed. He recognized that he was contributing to their stand-off and he altered his behavior and he worked on himself. 

That's not the same thing as compromising or gritting one's teeth to make another person happy. And she responded in kind.

This thread is about minimizing bad sex and ego-protection. Why is it turning into yet another how do we force our partners to behave properly thread?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> That is just as fascinating to me too, to hear about people who don't necessarily get an emotional component out of having sex. For me I just can't fathom it. And I'm as down as dirty as you can get. I just also need a real connection and intimacy. Several other posters have explained that they are not into sex for the emotional component, including Personal and MrsHolland, so I do understand that it is quite common and we are not all the same. What works for me has no bearing on what works for others and vice versa.
> 
> With the potential sex buddy guy, it absolutely could be that he didn't feel a connection was important for that type of arrangement and I had no problem with that. It did not hurt my feelings or make me feel devalued at all. It was just something I knew I could not continue.
> 
> ...


I agree. Eye contact is a basic form of communication. It's an acknowledgment of the other person's presence. Have you ever gone into a Burger King and the dude behind the counter is staring out the window while he's taking your order? Infuriating. Now imagine that during sex. But not with the Burger King guy.

I'm also the same way regarding the FWB concept. Theoretically speaking (I've never been with anyone other than the missus) I like the "concept" of a FWB, but I know it would never work for me. I'm way too emotionally invested in sex and I'd never be able to separate that. It would be a train-wreck for me.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* John
So, why compromise from 1x a month to 2x a month if you feel his end goal is 1x a week then 1x a day? Hence, reject any compromise.*

John, I think you told that to my W so I am blaming you for our no sex life. Just kidding, but that is about what my W said to me 5 or 10 years ago.

Ah, universal thoughts. I suppose some people are wired that way so they have similar thoughts.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It became a running joke that wife's sexual activity calendar had only two settings, one of which was daily. Changing from the current setting, whatever that would be, to something else was automatically converted into the Mayan calendar equivalent of every day... Pretty funny actually in a way.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

John, a friend has a cartoon of the periodic table about the size of a greeting card. Instead of the title "Periodic Table of Elements" the title is "Periodic Table of Sex" Each box has a "NO" in it.

I like the poster sold on Amazon better. "Periodic Table of Sex (Reference Guide) Art Poster Print - 24x36 "


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ouch


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

John, that is the exact cartoon I was trying to find on the Internet. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,
Sorry for being so slow to respond to your question about why M2 is better at sex than I am. I actually gave it a lot of - slow but sincere - thought. 

1. She has a fair amount more edge in and out of bed - that was less true when we were younger and I had more testosterone. In our mid thirties it was closer to parity. And in our mid thirties - M2 unilaterally chose to put us on a twice a day schedule for almost a year. And then we slowly reverted to once a day.
2. As part of having less edge, I've allowed us to gradually spend most of our time together - my individual travel schedule even for work has become minimal. This is both of us choosing stability and comfort over excitement. This has an unequal impact on us. I don't really need to travel to feel a good bit of desire. But when I travel a decent amount it has a pretty big increase on her desire level. 

3. She is more adventurous than me in and out of bed. This gap was less apparent when I had higher T levels.





wild jade said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression from YAH's story that it is about a lot more than compromise. He didn't just ask her to change -- he changed. He recognized that he was contributing to their stand-off and he altered his behavior and he worked on himself.
> 
> That's not the same thing as compromising or gritting one's teeth to make another person happy. And she responded in kind.
> 
> This thread is about minimizing bad sex and ego-protection. Why is it turning into yet another how do we force our partners to behave properly thread?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agree with all this and add that YAH - followed a really good and sincere path. 

And as a general comment he says what he means and means what he says. His wife believed he would leave. 

Many of the fellows who post about massively screwed up sex lives say totally contradictory things in their posts. I assume they employ the same style of communication with their wives. 

In my opinion - it creates trust issues to say contradictory things about what you will and won't except. 

He doesn't play pretend/bluff with her and equally doesn't ask her to pretend to be more passionate than she is on a given night. 






Faithful Wife said:


> IMO, they should not "compromise" at all necessarily. Why should they go against their own nature? Why should they try to swim upstream just to make someone else happy? Sure, if they want to and choose to, that's great and we have examples like YAH to show how this can work.
> 
> But if given the choice, YAH's wife most likely would still prefer to have much less sex than they are currently having. So she has compromised, but her core has not changed. Nor will it. For her and YAH, this is sustainable and preferable to divorce or a sexless marriage. But their example does not reflect the majority.
> 
> ...


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think you're right--this is not a one size fits all kind of thing.
> 
> My wife's not really into the eye contact thing during--I don't think she's deliberately avoiding intimacy, it's just that it can be a distraction from what's happening down there--and she really needs to be able to concentrate on that to get off. The last thing I want to do is distract her when she's trying to get what is for her, the most out of the experience.


There are three things that shape my wife's views toward sex. First she is LD and yet loves sex and orgasming but only at her prefered frequency. Second she has lots of sexual inhibitions. Third, for her to orgasm, she needs to relax, not have any loose ends or facts she is thinking about in her mind. She literally has to go into a zen-like state of mind. Prior to orgasmic sex for her, she writes down any loose thoughts she needs to remember for the next day on a piece of paper, she puts her head on my chest, I massage her neck/back until she relaxes and can let her mind go. Only then the more traditional foreplay can begin. 

I believe that what Schnarch is commenting on is that some couples where one partner has difficulty in "self-soothing" then that partner is more likely to need to close their eyes during sex. I am certain that if my wife had eyes open sex with me or tried for eyes open orgasm her brain would engage to the point that she would not be able to relax enough to orgasm. Which is why I won't push it with her. She really does enjoy a good toe curling orgasm once a week and sometimes a little more often.





Faithful Wife said:


> Yeti and YAH...I was thinking about the comments earlier on this thread from posters who say they do not go for that connection and in some cases, sex for them is not an emotional event, just physical.
> 
> Then YAH with the Scnarch info and his wife's reaction to what the PM book suggests for intimacy and that being too much for her.
> 
> ...


I love sex, but the emotional connection is more important to me, but that connection is destroyed by a lack of sex. So they are connected.

As above, my wife to really enjoy the physcial act of sex needs to let her mind go totally blank. Eyes open sex will interfere with that. She does want emotional connection, she enjoys after care and cuddling. 

I do think we are all different and one size approach does not fit all.



wild jade said:


> Huh. This doesn't feel right to me. I don't "tune out" my husband. I have two modes, I think. One feels like we're melting together, the other is more about letting fantasy enhance the experience.
> 
> But it's usually eyes closed, or eyes glazed, or eyes on the task at hand, or looking out in the direction that I happen to be facing, not really eye contact. And it's definitely physical. I suspect he bonds to me through sex much more than I bond to him that way. I just like how it feels.


I envy you. I don't feel that my wife is ignoring me as much as she is doing what she needs to do mentally to have really enjoyable sex for her. I want her to enjoy sex with me as much as I enjoy it with her. Also she will give me the gift of her body and actively enjoy pleasuring me, so I want to do everything I can to pleasure her as well. 



Faithful Wife said:


> .....I do love what Schnarch is saying about marriage, how it makes you grow, his ideas on love and expansion within marriage, etc. These are all excellent and loving concepts about marriage and very enlightening (and true, when you examine your own experience in or after a long term marriage). BUT...he is implying that most or all sexual relationships can improve to a great degree by simply applying more love and intimacy skills. And I don't think that is true. I think some relationships are so sadly mismatched that no amount of effort will ever change it, because it is like trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Counseling, love, marriage books....none of these change your basic sexual shape.
> 
> The way that YAH has successfully applied concepts like these in his marriage and sex life is totally awesome and Schnarch has helped many other couples the same way. *These couples are the ones who took the time to work through a mismatch AND all the other love and marriage issues that came along and worked with it until they found a viable solution.*
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you said.

As MW Davis says it takes two to make a marriage and two to destroy a marriage. Personally, my wife of 46+ years, is the mother of our children, and the woman I have loved for most of my life. She has hurt me and I have hurt her. We love each other in so many ways. Yes, when two people work together and are committed to a marriage and each other's happiness, it is special. Not always easy, but special.

But I think Schnarch is right about marriage being a people growing relationship and that two people grow at different rates over time. I know that when we got married, we both changed a lot and I know that when we had children we both changed a lot. When our children left home as adults and started their own families we changed even more. 

Yes, I might have been happier if I had fallen in love with my wife's college room mate, but that is not what happened. As Schnarch says Marriage is one of the hardest things two people can do, if they do it right. I don't think any couple is so perfectly matched that over 40 or 50 years they don't have rough spots. Some of those rough spots might be related to sex, some finances, some toward child rearing, some to priorities between work and family, and other over personality.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> I envy you. I don't feel that my wife is ignoring me as much as she is doing what she needs to do mentally to have really enjoyable sex for her. I want her to enjoy sex with me as much as I enjoy it with her. Also she will give me the gift of her body and actively enjoy pleasuring me, so I want to do everything I can to pleasure her as well.


Don't envy me! Engaging in fantasy is what I do to make sex more enjoyable for me. To push me towards orgasm. 

Six of one, a half dozen of the other.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jade,
> Sorry for being so slow to respond to your question about why M2 is better at sex than I am. I actually gave it a lot of - slow but sincere - thought.
> 
> 1. She has a fair amount more edge in and out of bed - that was less true when we were younger and I had more testosterone. In our mid thirties it was closer to parity. And in our mid thirties - M2 unilaterally chose to put us on a twice a day schedule for almost a year. And then we slowly reverted to once a day.
> ...


Interesting! It sounds like despite the challenges she has with sex (pain!), she's actually quite intense, (aka adventurous, exciting, potent, confident, aggressive). Is that right? 

So why would you also say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?

My apologies if I seem to be prying or putting you on the spot. I'm just genuinely curious to the thought process and dynamics --to what might make you come to these judgments.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wild jade said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression from YAH's story that it is about a lot more than compromise. He didn't just ask her to change -- he changed. He recognized that he was contributing to their stand-off and he altered his behavior and he worked on himself.
> 
> That's not the same thing as compromising or gritting one's teeth to make another person happy. And she responded in kind.
> 
> This thread is about minimizing bad sex and ego-protection. Why is it turning into yet* another how do we force our partners to behave properly thread?*


If you read either MW Davis books or Glover's NMMNG, both say that you really need to work on yourself first before you can expect any change on the part of your partner and then they may not change. So yes, in troubled marriages, we all need to first fix ourself. 

To me compromise is about both people making life style changes in themselves and their behavior. My wife has made huge changes and they are more than just the frequency of sex, they include an understanding of how important sex is to me and the need for her find joy in her pleasuring me. I also have made changes in understanding that my wife does love me, that she enjoys sex, but just not as often as I do. While I want to please her, I will not force her to do things she can not do, just because I think she should want to mirror my views. 

To me compromise is not just doing something differently without changing ourself. One of the things that Schnarch says a lot is that couples with marriage problems don't have a communication problem. He points out that the old married couple at the restaurant dinner table have had the same conversations thousands of times and know exactly how their spouse will respond. The old married couple can communicate more with a facial expression, body language or tone of voice than the young dating couple can communicate by talking all night long in the restaurant. As such if I "compromise" without changing, my partner will know I have not changed, that I am not sincere and that it is a lie. 

I agree strongly with you in that we should not try to force our spouse to change. Only they can change themself. We can do lots to show them, by example, that change is possible and reinforce positive changes they initiate, but they have to want to change.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She's so jealous. And I am not talking sexual jealousy. Close male friends - family members of either gender. 

She gets anxious I will deprioritize her. I don't feel like I do that. 

It reminds me of super talented folks who are insecure at their core. And I think - you have so much going for you - why are you afraid.

So - mostly - we do our one on one routine - which is truly a beautiful thing. She is a perfect one on one companion. 

And in group situations I am just very very careful of all the electrified trip wires around me. 

Overall I am SUPER lucky. Intensely high quality 1-1 interaction is magical. So we sort of live on a virtualized dessert island. Because aught for brief visits - adding the moving parts of visitors - triggers her phobia.





wild jade said:


> Interesting! It sounds like despite the challenges she has with sex (pain!), she's actually quite intense, (aka adventurous, exciting, potent, confident, aggressive). Is that right?
> 
> So why would you also say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?
> 
> My apologies if I seem to be prying or putting you on the spot. I'm just genuinely curious to the thought process and dynamics --to what might make you come to these judgments.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> And still...even if all the stars align and there can be a new negotiating point...neither partner will be having the sex life they actually want to have.
> 
> Mismatch.


Which is why I say the only real compromise is to exchange weeks. This week we do it as much as I want (might be not at all), next week we do it as much as you want (might be twice a day). That way each spouse gets exactly what they want, half of the time. I am not aware of any couple who has implemented this, invariably because the LD refuses to give up control over the HD's week.

Which gets back to @Faithful Wife's point. The couple is mismatched. There is no mutually satisfying compromise. They should split up and free both of them to find a more compatible partner.

Wish I had realized this 17 years ago.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> I don't think any couple is so perfectly matched that over 40 or 50 years they don't have rough spots. Some of those rough spots might be related to sex, some finances, some toward child rearing, some to priorities between work and family, and other over personality.


True. But that does not mean the different areas of disagreement are equally likely to result in depression, loss of self-esteem, etc. And everyone weights the different areas differently.

From my experience posting on message boards, I would suggest that if sex is a high priority for a person, then they pick someone where there is very little disagreement over sex. Fight over something else.

Of course, people change, and some problem areas that work OK at the start become huge points of conflict later. But for my money, sex is just about the worst area to fight over because there is no practical way to solve the issue by yourself. If your spouse sets a bad example for the kids, you can set a good example. If they spend too much money you can work hard to earn more, keep your earnings in a separate account, etc. But if they won't have sex with you, all you can do by yourself is leave.


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Why do you think she is like that? 

I can't understand jealousy, being the polar opposite myself. I'm much more detached and even enjoy the space of being alone. If my husband wants to spend time with other people, I am very much OK with it, even looking forward to the respite. And I love him very much. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It sounds like a good compromise but it doesn't work. Its a huge win for the HD who get what they want ever other week rather than never. Its unacceptable to the LD who *doesn't want sex*. To them possibly needing to have sex every day is a horrible thought.

The problem is that LD people seem to be wired in a way that for many unwanted sex is really awful. Not "doing chores" awful, but a terrible humiliating experience - even if it isn't physically painful. 

For a ND/HD person this is difficult to imagine. 








Holdingontoit said:


> Which is why I say the only real compromise is to exchange weeks. This week we do it as much as I want (might be not at all), next week we do it as much as you want (might be twice a day). That way each spouse gets exactly what they want, half of the time. I am not aware of any couple who has implemented this, invariably because the LD refuses to give up control over the HD's week.
> snip


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Compromise to most LD's is like trying to bargain a brand new BMW to half price. "But I'm meeting you halfway"...

A famous (*) psychologist once said... "Compromise is possible only if the time units for both sides are the same. If one side is thinking times per week and the other times per month, there's no common ground". 4x a week vs 2x a week works out to 3x a week, and isn't too difficult. 4x a month vs 4x a week... Not happening.

(*) Ok, me.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The LD may also feel that they have already compromised. 






john117 said:


> Compromise to most LD's is like trying to bargain a brand new BMW to half price. "But I'm meeting you halfway"...
> 
> A famous (*) psychologist once said... "Compromise is possible only if the time units for both sides are the same. If one side is thinking times per week and the other times per month, there's no common ground". 4x a week vs 2x a week works out to 3x a week, and isn't too difficult. 4x a month vs 4x a week... Not happening.
> 
> (*) Ok, me.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It sounds like a good compromise but it doesn't work. Its a huge win for the HD who get what they want ever other week rather than never. Its unacceptable to the LD who *doesn't want sex*. To them possibly needing to have sex every day is a horrible thought.
> 
> The problem is that LD people seem to be wired in a way that for many unwanted sex is really awful. Not "doing chores" awful, but a terrible humiliating experience - even if it isn't physically painful.
> 
> For a ND/HD person this is difficult to imagine.


Yes, I completely agree. The idea is not that I think anyone would ever accept this. The idea is to get the couple to realize a few things. First, that the current situation is not "fair" to the HD. Second, that the LD does not want "fair", they want their way. Which, in all good conscience, they are entitled to and is the correct response to the situation. But once it is out on the table that the LD expects the HD to accept a resolution to this issue that is not "fair" to the HD, maybe one or both of them will realize that they are sufficiently mismatched that they are both better off divorced.

The idea is to reframe "fairness". To me, "fair" is not getting as close as possible to the mean / average frequency that each people desires. With the idea being that both are compromising so it must be "fair". To me, "fair" is what percentage of the time is one or the other of the partners having sex as often as they want to. 

If they are both compromising, then it might well be zero. That is, the LD is always having sex more frequently than they desire and the HD is always having sex less often than they desire. I think that this type of outcome is sub-optimal but stable.

On the other hand, if there are large stretches of time where the LD is having sex precisely as often as they desire (which may well be not at all), but never a stretch of time when the HD is having sex as often as they desire, then that to me is "unfair" even if there are times when the LD has sex more often as a "compromise". And I want couples to bring that unfairness into the conversation.

And it is not always the case that the LD is the one being unfair. Some HDs demand that the LD have sex "on demand", and the LD consents. In that case, the situation is extremely unfair to the LD. The HD is always pleased with the frequency and the LD is never pleased. I would suggest my "thought experiment" to that couple as well, so that they can see how unfair the HD is being to the LD.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Agreed. And it stuns me that people have such a phobic reaction to sex and choose to accept or even embrace it rather than find out why it triggers such revulsion or fear.

If I reacted that way to germs, public contact, etc I would seek help. Simply having such a strong negative reaction (vs positive or neutral) towards something so normal would be a serious sign something is wrong.

So would feeling compelled to be selfish. If I have only $100 left after paying bills, I will offer $50 to my partner. I could find countless ways to spend that $100 on myself, but I will give $50 simply because it's the right thing to do. If she's pissed because she feels she needs the entire $100 to satisfy her wants, it's her fault for insisting on getting it all. It is not my fault for insisting on half, or that there is only $100 available.



uhtred said:


> It sounds like a good compromise but it doesn't work. Its a huge win for the HD who get what they want ever other week rather than never. Its unacceptable to the LD who *doesn't want sex*. To them possibly needing to have sex every day is a horrible thought.
> 
> The problem is that LD people seem to be wired in a way that for many unwanted sex is really awful. Not "doing chores" awful, but a terrible humiliating experience - even if it isn't physically painful.
> 
> ...


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If you have $100 extra every week, is it better to split each week 50-50 or one week you keep the $100 and the next week she gets the $100. Aren't they equally "fair"?

If I am a person with poor self-control who has trouble saving money, I might prefer to switch off weeks so that some weeks I have enough to buy something that costs $75.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yet in society negative reactions to sex are prevalent. Think of the religions that consider sex to be generally sinful. Societies that keep women covered to prevent them from enticing men. 

Even in modern society there is a stigma against sex workers. Why is it that some people consider doing porn to be a worse job than cleaning toilets?

For many people, infidelity is just about the worst thing a spouse can do. 

For many being "gay" is considered a terrible thing. 

Would you take a month's pay to give oral sex to someone who is not your preferred gender (assuming no disease issues, and assuming that you are not bi)? Why not - it would be at a pay rate ~200X larger than you get in your normal job. 

(I'm not saying that you *should* just pointing out that people have very strange ideas about sex. 



Most societies seem to have real issues with sex, so I'm not surprised that many individuals do as well. 






DTO said:


> Agreed. And it stuns me that people have such a phobic reaction to sex and choose to accept or even embrace it rather than find out why it triggers such revulsion or fear.
> 
> If I reacted that way to germs, public contact, etc I would seek help. Simply having such a strong negative reaction (vs positive or neutral) towards something so normal would be a serious sign something is wrong.
> 
> So would feeling compelled to be selfish. If I have only $100 left after paying bills, I will offer $50 to my partner. I could find countless ways to spend that $100 on myself, but I will give $50 simply because it's the right thing to do. If she's pissed because she feels she needs the entire $100 to satisfy her wants, it's her fault for insisting on getting it all. It is not my fault for insisting on half, or that there is only $100 available.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Would you take a month's pay to give oral sex to someone who is not your preferred gender (assuming no disease issues, and assuming that you are not bi)? Why not - it would be at a pay rate ~200X larger than you get in your normal job.
> 
> (I'm not saying that you *should* just pointing out that people have very strange ideas about sex.
> 
> ...


Not wanting to do this has nothing to do with "having strange ideas about sex." Some people don't want to have sexual contact with anybody they are not otherwise intimate with, regardless of gender. There is nothing "strange" about this. I love to give oral to my wife--there's no amount of money you could pay me to do that to another woman, no matter how attractive she may be. And even if I would do it for another woman but not a man, that still wouldn't be a strange idea about sex--it would just be a matter of preference.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What I'm trying to say is that unwanted sex is *really* unwanted. I suspect that a LD person being asked to "just" have sex feels like a ND person being asked to just have sex under conditions or with someone that they are not interested in.






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not wanting to do this has nothing to do with "having strange ideas about sex." Some people don't want to have sexual contact with anybody they are not otherwise intimate with, regardless of gender. There is nothing "strange" about this. I love to give oral to my wife--there's no amount of money you could pay me to do that to another woman, no matter how attractive she may be. And even if I would do it for another woman but not a man, that still wouldn't be a strange idea about sex--it would just be a matter of preference.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> What I'm trying to say is that unwanted sex is *really* unwanted. I suspect that a LD person being asked to "just" have sex feels like a ND person being asked to just have sex under conditions or with someone that they are not interested in.


There is a huge difference between LD and ND. This may be a fine point, but I think it is an important one.

I think that a lot of LD people are viewed as not wanting sex, not enjoying sex, or not being into sex.

I can say that my LD wife likes sex. She likes it a lot, just not all that frequently. As an HD guy (relative to her) that was a hard concept for me to understand.

I think far too often people view the LD partner as not enjoying sex and lumping them in with ND folks.

My LD wife will have sex with me a little bit more than she desires, because she loves me, knows it is very important to me and our marriage and she enjoys using her body to pleasure her husband. Those extra times she may or may not orgasm and she is fine with that, as am I, because we both feel the love and connection.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, but at least in my wife's case her "LD" means that sometimes she is no-desire, at other times she is normal desire. (both ND...need better acroynms). 

When she feels like sex she wants sex and enjoys it. When she doesn't feel like sex she *really* doesn't want sex. 





Young at Heart said:


> There is a huge difference between LD and ND. This may be a fine point, but I think it is an important one.
> 
> I think that a lot of LD people are viewed as not wanting sex, not enjoying sex, or not being into sex.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's what I have coined as SLA... Eventually it disappears altogether but being gradual it seems like not much of a big deal. Generally it's an intentional strategy over time, not a singularity.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> She's so jealous. And I am not talking sexual jealousy. Close male friends - family members of either gender.
> 
> She gets anxious I will deprioritize her. I don't feel like I do that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing!

I can't help but wonder, is it that she is jealous? Or is it that she just generally doesn't like groups? 

For me, at any rate, I prefer to avoid groups. Small ones are fine, but big ones just make me want to go home. That said, I'd feel very stifled if my husband objected to me socializing just because he doesn't feel like it, so sometimes when it's a big group gathering, I'll just send him off on his own. Win-win!

One idea that came out upthread I think is important. People often have this tendency to make their partners take responsibility for them and for their happiness. Seems to be an unfair burden, if you know what I mean. No matter how loving your relationship, you have to also know how to look after yourself.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wild jade said:


> One idea that came out upthread I think is important. People often have this tendency to make their partners take responsibility for them and for their happiness. Seems to be an unfair burden, if you know what I mean. No matter how loving your relationship, you have to also know how to look after yourself.


True, but explains why sex is the worst area to have as a major disagreement. Because "looking after yourself" sexually is generally not possible. Either because masturbating isn't in as satisfying as partner sex, or because satisfying one's need for sex with someone else is frowned upon by the partner who isn't providing it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,
I've learned through a lot of 'trial and error - mostly error' that the only way to deal with your partners phobias is with a mix of kindness, patience and humor. 

The situations where we have issues don't involve her participation. In fact - a distinct phobia is: Fear Of Missing Out - an internet meme called FOMO. Why she might get agitated when I go do 'both social AND non social activities' without her. 

On the bright side - being that she has such a strong desire to be highly connected - the physical side of things is more active than it would be otherwise. 





wild jade said:


> Interesting! It sounds like despite the challenges she has with sex (pain!), she's actually quite intense, (aka adventurous, exciting, potent, confident, aggressive). Is that right?
> 
> So why would you also say you are shortchanged outside of the bedroom?
> 
> My apologies if I seem to be prying or putting you on the spot. I'm just genuinely curious to the thought process and dynamics --to what might make you come to these judgments.





wild jade said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> 
> I can't help but wonder, is it that she is jealous? Or is it that she just generally doesn't like groups?
> 
> ...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> True, but explains why sex is the worst area to have as a major disagreement. Because "looking after yourself" sexually is generally not possible. Either because masturbating isn't in as satisfying as partner sex, or because satisfying one's need for sex with someone else is frowned upon by the partner who isn't providing it.


I didn't say "look after yourself at the expense of your partner". I said look after yourself so you don't make the other responsible for your own happiness. In my books, that's actually for the partner.

With sex, it's also where the minimizing bad sex comes into play. If it's all just me, me, me, what have you done for me lately, then it's just another way of making someone else responsible for your happiness. 

I have a feeling that's about as clear as mud, but what I'm trying to say is that the more you foist responsibility for your happiness onto another, the more you make both of you miserable. It's a downward spiral. Especially if two are playing the same game.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jade,
> I've learned through a lot of 'trial and error - mostly error' that the only way to deal with your partners phobias is with a mix of kindness, patience and humor.
> 
> The situations where we have issues don't involve her participation. In fact - a distinct phobia is: Fear Of Missing Out - an internet meme called FOMO. Why she might get agitated when I go do 'both social AND non social activities' without her.
> ...


I think we've talked about this before, in another thread. We're all too human, and yes, kindness patience, and humor go a long, long way. When you live in the internet world where everyone is rich, beautiful, successful, exciting, and perfect, it's easy to start feeling shortchanged. 

Sometimes I feel that way too. Then I remember that a certain someone puts up with all of my foibles too.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I didn't say "look after yourself at the expense of your partner". I said look after yourself so you don't make the other responsible for your own happiness. In my books, that's actually for the partner.
> 
> With sex, it's also where the minimizing bad sex comes into play. If it's all just me, me, me, what have you done for me lately, then it's just another way of making someone else responsible for your happiness.
> 
> I have a feeling that's about as clear as mud, but what I'm trying to say is that the more you foist responsibility for your happiness onto another, the more you make both of you miserable. It's a downward spiral. Especially if two are playing the same game.


I am not responsible for my partners happiness, he needs to find that himself. He is not responsible for mine.

I do however have a responsibility to make sure I do not make him unhappy and the same for him. 

In my past marriage that was a mismatch of drive my ex did not understand the above. He would say I am not responsible for your happiness, yes I agree. But he refused to understand that he had an obligation to not bring unhappiness to my life, it was his way of not having to do anything to take himself outside of his comfort zone. It was a win/win for him and a lose/lose for me.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Personally, I would spin it another way. He didn't want to take responsibility for your happiness, but he still insisted on foisting the responsibility to keep him happy on you.

I don't think anyone has an obligation not to make their spouse unhappy. Not that we should try, and of course the best relationships are ones where you make each other happy. But sometimes I have to make my partner unhappy, and sometimes he does to me too. I'm thinking of things like illness, family obligations, hard honest conversations about needs and emotions, interventions, putting our foot down. 

There are lots and lots of things that we do, that we need to do, that have the potential to make our partners unhappy. Absolutely, we should not do this thoughtlessly and carelessly, or with just me, me, me, in mind. But I can't imagine that you can avoid it altogether in a marriage or LTR.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If I can't be happy without sex, and my partner has no interest in having sex with me, there is no way for me to "take responsibility for my happiness" except to leave.

Which is the harsh reality of mismatched libidos. Wish I had known that 25 years ago.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Wild Jade
When you live in the internet world where everyone is a)rich, b)beautiful, c)successful, d)exciting, and e)perfect, it's easy to start f)feeling shortchanged. *

Not me: 
a)Not rich, never had a high income, but I have savings because I am thrifty.
b)Tall but not good looking, maybe average.
c)I did OK but it was and is a struggle.
d) People ask me "how are things at dullsville." I keep busy with ordinary things.
e) Not perfect but my W said she didn't worry about me having an affair because no one would want me. Maybe I am messed up, but I know better, much better. Kindness goes a long way and I have that.
f) I feel fortunate in many areas of my life. The sexual part is a significant problem. So I do what makes me happy and don't depend on other people.


----------



## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Our sex life went downhill quick after the babies were born. She couldn't get out of mommy mode and I was too broke with my young family and stay at home wife to "date" my wife to break her out of the mommy mode and back into sexy couple time mode. If you have small children, just get what you can when you can and keep trucking forward is my only advice. I gave up on her at that time due to lack of sex and it put a strain our relationship. 

Things can get better. 

My advice, Do everything you can do to help her feel pretty and sexy. She's buying make up, pay for it and tell her to not worry and to get the expensive stuff. She's getting her hair done, pay for it and tell her to go the expensive place and not to worry. Buy her gift certificates to nail salons and spas, pay for it and tell her anything she needs for her beauty is alright and you will pay for it because you benefit from it. Same with clothes and purses and shoes (within reason), these things make her feel sexy and special and appreciative and maybe wanting to give some thanks. It works for me.

Let her know your needs and ask what her needs are sexually right after you have sex. 
My wife said she would like it once a week. She doesn't have orgasms, not for lack of trying, she blames it on changes after giving birth, but she enjoys the intimacy of sex. I said I'd like it everyday but we should compromise and have sex at least 3-4 times per week. She was good with that but I shouldn't expect any if it is after 10 pm because she has her night routine. I said I'd like varied sex, I reminded her that she used to give me oral all the time and at that time it had been months. I said I'd like oral to completion once per week, you pick the day, she said Thursday nights will be oral nights, she said swallowing or spitting will be her choice and I agreed. She told me she didn't want to do it before because I had pressed her too much for it and about swallowing every time, it turned her off. I made mistakes as a young husband and demanded too much sexually and I apologized. I reminded her that we used to have anal every once in a while and that she would ask for it just as often as I did, and that we hadn't done that in years. She said she has to be in the right rare mood for it, and that she knows I want it and that my desire for it has turned her off of it. Again I had pressed her too often and it ruined her desire for it and turned her off of it. I apologized and said if we had gauranteed anal at least four times per year, every three months or so, that I wouldn't bring it up anymore since I know it will be happening at some point. She agreed to it. She wanted back massages on Monday nights with sex after being her choice and I shouldn't even hint at it, I agreed to that. I said we should date each other more and she agreed. 

That was about 5 years ago. We have a date night at least two or three sometimes more times per month and take a big vacation alone without the children at least once per year, with several road trips and weekend or one night getaways alone while the kids visit grandparents. We have spontaneous sex 3-4 times per week, one scheduled BJ per week, one scheduled back massage per week, and anal every few months. 
She gets her nails and hair done and keeps herself up very well and she doesn't have to worry about the money it costs because I encourage it and pay for it happily.

I'm not great at sex, I could stand to lose 15 lbs, my hairline is slightly reseeding, I found a few grey hairs, my penis is average sized, my oral skills aren't great, my hand skills aren't great, my massages aren't amazing, but I try and she tries and she is happy (as far as I can tell and what she says) with me as I am. She isn't perfect either, but she's perfect for me and that's all that matters. 

She still cannot orgasm, but she gets close and enjoys sex. She doesn't want to use toys even though I've encouraged it and ordered a small variety to experiment with. She's says that I am enough for her and she's happy. 

We are 40 years old and we have sex like we did 20 years ago when we met, I'm more attracted to her now than ever and I can say we are very happily married, not perfect at all, but happy. 

Learn from your past mistakes, if you're like me you made some mistakes with your wife in your younger years. Be generous and get her to a place where she feels pretty and appreciated and desired by you and make sure without saying it that she knows you are both the benefactor and benifitter of her sexiness.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,

The post below and my message are close to identical. 







MrsHolland said:


> I am not responsible for my partners happiness, he needs to find that himself. He is not responsible for mine.
> 
> I do however have a responsibility to make sure I do not make him unhappy and the same for him.
> 
> In my past marriage that was a mismatch of drive my ex did not understand the above. He would say I am not responsible for your happiness, yes I agree. But he refused to understand that he had an obligation to not bring unhappiness to my life, it was his way of not having to do anything to take himself outside of his comfort zone. It was a win/win for him and a lose/lose for me.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Holland,
> 
> The post below and my message are close to identical.


Mem, where is the line drawn?

What is the midway point between happy and unhappy? "Neutral"? 

If the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, then is middle ground what you should truly shoot for?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

After all of these pages, let us not lose sight of the central message of this thread.
If you want to minimize bad sex, refuse to have bad sex. If the sex is bad for you, stop having it the same same same old way. If you sense that sex is bad for your partner, stop what you are doing. Don't let your partner "take one for the team". Either try something else or try again later.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> After all of these pages, let us not lose sight of the central message of this thread.
> *If you want to minimize bad sex, refuse to have bad sex.* If the sex is bad for you, stop having it the same same same old way. If you sense that sex is bad for your partner, stop what you are doing. Don't let your partner "take one for the team". Either try something else or try again later.


*That is sometimes perceived as "rejection"* and doing so will cause even worse problems. 

If one is in this situation, it may be wise to fake an injury and then facilitate trying something else by pretending to find ways work around your injury. 



badsanta said:


> OMG my knee is acting up and this really hurts. Can we try something different?..."


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,

You won't like my answer but it's the truth - at least based on a combination of personal experience and observation. The line is mostly drawn as the stronger person in the marriage wishes to draw it. 

And this is a function of some very interesting elements of interpersonal conflict. 

At the simplest level - there are two conflict capabilities:
1. The irresistible force
2. The immovable object

1. Is kind of a - we are gonna keep fighting about this til someone surrenders 
2. Is kind of - fire away - I'm disengaging - if you want to leave me / divorce me - have at it - but I'm not gonna do what you are asking me to

Of course if you are with a partner who is far superior at (1) - you have to set some threshold for when you will employ (2). Otherwise you are constantly disengaging. 

Sure - midway between happy and unhappy is neutral. 

Here in MEM land we have very little neutrality. It happens but it is rare. If we are in neutral it is while vectoring slowly but surely back to happiness. 





Fozzy said:


> Mem, where is the line drawn?
> 
> What is the midway point between happy and unhappy? "Neutral"?
> 
> If the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, then is middle ground what you should truly shoot for?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,

There are 3 main dimensions to honesty: Clarity, tone and timing

It is ok to finesse a situation in the moment - I do it all the time. But it is important to say later - that position doesn't really work for me. Otherwise you end up making a pattern of excuses - which tends to be confusing and destructive to your partner.





badsanta said:


> *That is sometimes perceived as "rejection"* and doing so will cause even worse problems.
> 
> If one is in this situation, it may be wise to fake an injury and then facilitate trying something else by pretending to find ways work around your injury.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My advice to anyone getting married is equally simple and stark: The stronger person in the marriage better be a 'good' person. 

And this whole premarital illusion of a 50-50 split - a division of the sort that can sometimes be achieved in business - is quite frankly a delusion. 

The ONLY time a marital dynamic is 50-50 is for a brief (infinitesimal?) moment when the center of power shifts from one spouse to another. 

This isn't bad - merely true. It's only bad - if the stronger person isn't good. 







Fozzy said:


> Mem, where is the line drawn?
> 
> What is the midway point between happy and unhappy? "Neutral"?
> 
> If the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, then is middle ground what you should truly shoot for?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a critical strand in the rope of a marriage.

The hottest thing I can do for M2 is engage in high quality conflict. Not combat - conflict. 

Playful physical combat is always welcome - but intense non physical conflict is a huge turn on for her. 





Holdingontoit said:


> After all of these pages, let us not lose sight of the central message of this thread.
> If you want to minimize bad sex, refuse to have bad sex. If the sex is bad for you, stop having it the same same same old way. If you sense that sex is bad for your partner, stop what you are doing. Don't let your partner "take one for the team". Either try something else or try again later.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am writing this thread - because somebody needed to and there wasn't a long line of volunteers to jump into this emotional minefield. And that seems to be mostly for the usual reason - making it all about ourselves. Because if sex is bad for our partner - then we must be unattractive or bad in bed or some other terrible thing. And I will point out some gender patterns. Women with LD partners do not make a big fuss about how those partners orgasm every time. However, many men in sexless marriages claim that the experience is always great for their partner, she raptures every single encounter, etc.
> 
> Much of the catalyst for this thread comes from the combo of:
> 1) The meme that sex is like pizza and ranges from good to great
> ...


Not sure if I understood the thread proposition correctly: but why does bad sex _need_ to be minimized in the first place? Why not embrace it occasionally? For example when either one or both are totally exhausted yet still a bit horny, I would not expect a Jenna Jameson performance (or vice versa) nor would I ever judge or expect to be judged in such situation (or any situation?)
Judging....How does one even establish an independent performance evaluation without an unbiased, objective third party? (No, not a good idea to get your mate in to adjudicate).
Is there even such a thing as bad sex if both find each other generally unrepulsive? (and neither are sick or stressed etc). In my mind, _any_ sex is *good* between two willing partners. Or perhaps my standards have sunk to a new low this particular time of the month...
I can't quite grasp the concept as it's so subjective. Or are we talking about how to handle/get to terms with criticism towards performance from the partner?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Some of us have tried a lot. What I've tried:
> 
> Trying new things in bed: Limited only by what she wants. I'm up for pretty much anything.


With respect, I am not sure some women like this. It sounds that your partner might have an 'indecisive libido' (pardon the rubbish term: I am not fond of using these stereotypical terms but trying to fit in with the others :grin2: which means she might prefer *you* to decide what it is *you* want in bed from her/with her and *take it*, without leaving her too much time to mull over to decide whether she's in the mood for sex or not. Many women have an echo of a libido or a reactive one (more terms...): if they don't feel you want them badly enough or wait for some kind of signals, they will never respond.

I know you said you don't want to go against your personality so this may not come so naturally but maybe what you define as 'aggressive initiating' is not even in the same ballpark universe. Maybe next time she is not sure whether she's tired or in the mood, tell her to work it out later, after you satisfy your burning desire to take her. Selfishly.

With apologies if I am completely off base. You obviously can't do it without consent (unless she consents you to take her without consent...which can also be fun. Just don't use 'headache' as the safe word).


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Right? My thoughts, too. I am very very much a no-eye-contact person. I must be terrible in bed! I also truly wish to understand this concept of fully engaged and "connected". It seems a bit mystical and fairy tale to me, but most likely I am just dense or as I said, absolutely terrible in bed. I find sex to be 99% physical and that's about it (regardless of partner), just doesn't do anything for me emotionally and never has.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just as a counter-perspective: I don't think it's a 'basic requirement' at all for many couples. It obviously *is* for some but I know of many people who have much stronger orgasms when they disconnect, let go, look inwards and focus on themselves to achieve a mindblowing experience with the person they love. They may not crave for this external validation in that particular moment and connect with their partner in other ways. That's not to say that one way is superior or inferior to others.
It just shows that there are no rights and wrongs (goods or bads etc). It's only 'wrong' if one party decides it is.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Is there even such a thing as bad sex if both find each other generally unrepulsive? (and neither are sick or stressed etc). In my mind, _any_ sex is *good* between two willing partners. Or perhaps my standards have sunk to a new low this particular time of the month...


I think this is what Mem is asking to discuss, especially in regards to the dynamics between HD and LD partners.

For me there is absolutely such thing as bad sex, even if both partners are attracted to each other and generally healthy. Stress is a leading contributor to bad sex and one of the largest sources of stress in our lives are our SO's for better or for worst.

So you take your experience--that there is no bad sex and mine where there is and there is a conflict right there that is just waiting to brew up. It intensifies when the HD believes there is no such thing as bad sex and the LD has experienced the opposite.

You touched on a reason why there is this conflict. I love, adore and respect my husband and I absolutely am attracted to him in a way that I still can't touch on verbally. However, I have had *bad* sex with him. Sometimes it is stress--but that stress is compounded when I am having sex I'm not really feeling. I've had bad sex where we have been on two totally different wavelengths mentally and physically. I've had bad sex where instead of lust I mostly feel guilt for saying no earlier in the week.

All of this stuff effects me. Furthermore; f my husband does not notice that I am not having good sex, *this makes it worse.* If my husband is insistent that we have to have sex AND that it has to be good otherwise I a) don't find him attractive b)he is a ****ty person c)am otherwise broken this makes it worse.

I'm not super LD, naturally. I can become so extremely quickly due to compounding factors. If my husband and I would like to have sex, we have to be in tune with each other enough to see that sometimes--it's going to be awful now but way better if we wait a day--sometimes even two.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> I think this is what Mem is asking to discuss, especially in regards to the dynamics between HD and LD partners.
> 
> For me there is absolutely such thing as bad sex, even if both partners are attracted to each other and generally healthy. Stress is a leading contributor to bad sex and one of the largest sources of stress in our lives are our SO's for better or for worst.
> 
> ...


I think I understand what you are saying. But my point was more about what we do with this information, post-analysis (that the sex was bad etc). Even for an HD like myself I could (under your definition of "bad") remember and list a number of 'bad sex experiences' if I strained myself. For example the other day when we had about 20 minutes to spare in the shower while the baby was napping: I can absolutely not perform (finish) under this kind of time pressure...or worse, knowing that the water will soon run cold...
But so what? It was totally awkward and kind of funny because of the absurdity of the situation actually. You take it with humour and hope next time it will be the 'real' thing. It's not like your partner will remember and judge the whole of your sex life by the way the last sex encounter went? I think sometimes a large part of the problem is the mountain of negative narrative we apply with hindsight to these experiences which only reinforce the negative feedback loop. I don't mean to minimise those experiences but it's really all in our heads...? (including the orgasm itself: apparently a scientific fact). Ok, ready to be proclaimed to be the biggest ignoranus of the century by not showing enough understanding towards one side... :rules:
But...sex can be all sorts of negative things: uncomfortable, painful, humiliating, sad, "bad" etc. Own it. Move on. (not you specifically). Try to make the best of it the next time around and avoid projection. Just make sure there's a next time...Otherwise what's the point?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> There was no link on your post, but I looked up and watched the video anyway. Maybe this one will work:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgAIY0or-hA&t=918s
> 
> ...


It's not so simple. It is extremely rare that a couple will be a perfect, or even a close enough match in most areas that are vital to make a relationship worth pursuing, including the sexual area. Perhaps Schnarch realises this and takes it as a given since it's quite obvious that the majority of cases will be less than a perfect match. When you initially fall in love with someone, your very first criteria of evaluation of your potential mate (subconscious or not) will not be whether you have the same tastes in bed. It couldn't be. It would make for a very awkward pick up line (though you might be able to get away with it  
It would probably be more about those obvious things, like the way the person looks, how they smell (pheromones) the kind of aura they project (personality etc). Furthermore, sexual compatibility is only one area (but an extremely important one, granted) of many areas which gives a relationship a certain potential for probability of success. It is by far not the only one. (Unless one is predominantly only interested in a sex buddy type relationship, which is not the default preference for the majority of people seeking a relationship, I would venture to say). As such, the whole 'affair' becomes more about how all those areas of compatibility/incompatibility balance and interact with each other. Where are people more and where they are less willing to compromise. What you may perceive as a 'perfectly sexually compatible couple' may perhaps underneath be an unspoken compromise by one side in one area of the relationship and another compromise in some other area from another party. It is obviously extremely complex. I realise this thread is mainly about 'bad sex' but I think when we discuss a couple's probability of success, we need to widen the discussion considerably to encompass those other elements to make any sense of it.

Some people may find a perfect, eye-glazingly sensual lover only to find out later that they are absolutely useless in many other walks of life or vice versa (also not so black and white but I am sure you know what I am trying to say). The main point is that a relationship doesn't start with sexual compatibility as the first evaluation criterion. It is something you find out later on (because sexuality also evolves over time as well). It is also something that can be moulded (to some extent) and is never static. *It all depends on how willing and how far can a person go in compromise before he/she starts suffering in the relationship.
* It is my belief that this 100% compatibility is an extremely rare thing and it cannot be viewed in isolation without looking at how compatible the couple is in other areas.

Another thought: in my opinion a couple in fact need not be 100% compatible in many areas in order to succeed as a couple through a variety walks of life. In fact it's better if there _are_ those slight mismatches. It's a little bit like +/- attracts. I am better in career stuff and with money. My wife is an amazing mother, wife and much better with people in general. We decided on those choices to assume certain roles. We have different interests and we are what you would call 'incompatible' in many areas, including many sexual aspects but it still works well overall. And it works well most of the time. We learn from each other and respect each other. We are also not afraid to try a little harder in those areas in which we don't excel in order to make this 'arrangement' work overall.
Of course sexual compatibility is extremely important. It's just that I think we would fool ourselves if we found a mate who was 100% compatible in *one* particular area, thinking that we discovered the holy grail.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> IMO, they should not "compromise" at all necessarily. Why should they go against their own nature? Why should they try to swim upstream just to make someone else happy? Sure, if they want to and choose to, that's great and we have examples like YAH to show how this can work.
> 
> But if given the choice, YAH's wife most likely would still prefer to have much less sex than they are currently having. So she has compromised, but her core has not changed. Nor will it. For her and YAH, this is sustainable and preferable to divorce or a sexless marriage. But their example does not reflect the majority.
> 
> ...



I just don't subscribe to this view (to this degree). There is this misconception that people have these unmovable cores. My observations are different: everyone has their cores of course but they are attached to an elastic string and the elasticity varies from person to person. Sometimes the string snaps. A compromise doesn't mean one has to go completely against their core at all. It could be just a nudge (and I wouldn't consider increasing sex frequency from 1x a month to 2x month a major core transplant by any stretch). The whole life is about compromise. Those who haven't figured it out could be more at risk of living a lonely life.
I hope you don't mind me asking but is it possible that your view may be coloured by meeting someone in your life who wasn't willing to make any/many changes you perhaps expected and not coming to terms with it well as a result? (I don't mean to be personal but there is a certain theme throughout the posts. It may just be coincidence). 
One certainly shouldn't demand or expect a change in a person but I can't help but feel there is a middle ground, a compromise perhaps :smile2:, somewhere between your view and the opposite view.
I must get some shut eye. Too much TAM for one day and my core not taking it very well...:corkysm60:


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In some cases you are right. In my case, she does not want me to tell her what I want - makes her feel pressured. She very rarely does what I ask for when I ask for it - which is sort of unfortunate because like most people my interest vary with time. 

"Taking" her doesn't work. (yup, tried that too). 

She is just very LD, rarely wants sex. When she does, wants a very limited set of activities. Always has a reason for not wanting sex, or some particular act at any time, but the result is the same. 

Basically our sex life sucks. The rest of life is good, just the sex is bad. 



inmyprime said:


> With respect, I am not sure some women like this. It sounds that your partner might have an 'indecisive libido' (pardon the rubbish term: I am not fond of using these stereotypical terms but trying to fit in with the others :grin2: which means she might prefer *you* to decide what it is *you* want in bed from her/with her and *take it*, without leaving her too much time to mull over to decide whether she's in the mood for sex or not. Many women have an echo of a libido or a reactive one (more terms...): if they don't feel you want them badly enough or wait for some kind of signals, they will never respond.
> 
> I know you said you don't want to go against your personality so this may not come so naturally but maybe what you define as 'aggressive initiating' is not even in the same ballpark universe. Maybe next time she is not sure whether she's tired or in the mood, tell her to work it out later, after you satisfy your burning desire to take her. Selfishly.
> 
> With apologies if I am completely off base. You obviously can't do it without consent (unless she consents you to take her without consent...which can also be fun. Just don't use 'headache' as the safe word).


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> In some cases you are right. In my case, she does not want me to tell her what I want - makes her feel pressured. She very rarely does what I ask for when I ask for it - which is sort of unfortunate because like most people my interest vary with time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think it may be a mistake to 'tell her what you want' in a way that may seem like you are asking. Ideally, you'd just steer her in that direction, either through humour or assertiveness with your actions. Bit of alcohol can help sometimes. Try not to put her in the 'limelight' for the performance.
There should be a combination of a high degree of confidence but also attentiveness from you (which is a given).
Can I ask you if you ever had a sexual encounter with her that was close to your ideal? How did it come about? What triggered it? What could be done for it to be repeated?
A lot of the time her head may not be in the right place to let go. Try to plan a weekend designed only for one purpose but don't put her on the spot about it. Go somewhere with bad whether (i highly recommend U.K. ) so that you get so bored in the hotel room out of your minds that you just won't have much choice but to **** each other unconscious to stay alive. Try role games so that she can distance herself and pretend to be someone else for one weekend if she's uncomfortable with herself. Play dare games: getting her to walk around in public in a short dress or jacket/trench coat and **** me boots - one of my favourite things to do with my wife. She once spent a whole weekend knickerless with me. I took lots of photos, her flashing me, some in public places. Almost got arrested (have to be careful). 
10 years ago she would have cried that I am abusing her with all these sexual demands and would never have done anything like this. Now she is more into it herself than even I am and seeks it out the thrill too. So much for people not being able to change (she is very much LD). These are not 'core' changes and really not a big deal. It's just games, curiosity, letting go and an open mind. It's not all up to her. You have to put in a lot of effort too to gently nudge her in that direction.

These are just suggestions and I'm sure you tried them all. Hard to know the exact dynamics in your relationship to give sensible feedback of which part may need more attention.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Just watched the Schnarch video. He says the word "mature" in a funny way but other than that all seems common sense. 
Interesting to hear that he made the same point that finding a perfect match is not necessarily the end goal and that we instinctively look for different traits in a partner from ourselves even though we often complain why the partner can't be or think bit more like me...('we wouldn't want to be married to ourselves').
It's IMO misguided to assume that a couple would have the best sex they could ever have if only they found this perfect sexual match. It would be true if people seeked out good sex as the main goal in a partnership but even then, I believe that the other areas of incompatibility would quickly catch up and spill over into sexual life, unravelling this myth either way.
A healthy relationship is dynamic, it cannot be static. It's about degrees not absolutes and openness and willingness to improve and, in Schnarch's words, be nice to each other. 

A lot of faulty assumptions in this thread IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Here's an interview with Schnarch which I found more informative (excepting the poor English skills of the interviewer): 

https://youtu.be/zyGbCTaKM4Y?t=15m50s

The 'reprogramming of the brain' (a scientific rebuttal of why it is not unnatural for us to change or stay fluid) and the idea of borrowed functioning is not something I have read much about before. Will get the book.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You aren't reprogramming the brain - you're simply adjusting the operating parameters of specific frames or mental models and even the selection process of specific models for specific conditions. Nothing unusual there.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@inmyprime Yes, there is such a thing as bad sex. I know because I've had it. And it isn't all in the hindsight narrative, I can tell while I'm having it that it is bad.

What makes it bad? Lack of interest or desire from my partner, lack of attentiveness to what feels good for me, insistence on doing things that I don't like, even after I've said that I don't like them, begrudging attitude from my partner, lack of attention to or concern for my orgasm.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @inmyprime Yes, there is such a thing as bad sex. I know because I've had it. And it isn't all in the hindsight narrative, I can tell while I'm having it that it is bad.
> 
> What makes it bad? Lack of interest or desire from my partner, lack of attentiveness to what feels good for me, insistence on doing things that I don't like, even after I've said that I don't like them, begrudging attitude from my partner, lack of attention to or concern for my orgasm.


If it's that bad at the time, then why not stop it? Perhaps you hope it will get better as time passes? Or do you continue out of fear of hurting the partner if you suddenly stopped?
I guess what I was trying to get at is that *the activity* of having sex itself is surely a positive thing, and not a bad thing in my view (and I only speak for my view), even if the sex itself could be better (it's relative: some people would be content with any sex they could get, while some would rather *not* have it at all). I think it is a difficult question to pose in a meaningful way.
I view it a bit like trying to get better at ice skating or maybe learning tango together. It's not the end of the world if you fall once in a while or accidentally cause discomfort by stepping on your partner's toes or whatever but why view the activity itself as bad even if you didn't have a good experience at one time or another. It's not terribly helpful. It takes two to tango and one to give up.
The point of this thought process is to use such vocabulary in these contexts a bit more sparingly because the other partner will feel judged and retreat even more. 
So to answer the original question of how to minimize bad sex perhaps first start viewing this activity together in positive light and try to improve from there? (Idealistic. Naive. But I try!)


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you have a wide comfort zone in how you like to be touched and you are not easily 'disgusted' than sex will almost always feel physically good to you. 

I am going to start with a couple of statements about human nature as I have observed it. 

Arousal suppresses disgust. It is a very strong suppressant for MOST people. It is not however absolute. Even fully aroused - some folks consider oral, anal, rim jobs etc to be disgusting. 

That said - physically some folks really are like a jeep. On a paved road, dirt road or off road - they function well. 

Some folks are more like a formula one car. Totally flat track with no speed limits - DRIVEN BY A RACE CAR DRIVER - they are incredible. 

Most of us are in between. 

As a recipient of sexual touch my partner has a narrow comfort zone. Stray outside it - and the experience is NOT less good for her. It is actually bad. 






inmyprime said:


> If it's that bad at the time, then why not stop it? Perhaps you hope it will get better as time passes? Or do you continue out of fear of hurting the partner if you suddenly stopped?
> I guess what I was trying to get at is that *the activity* of having sex itself is surely a positive thing, and not a bad thing in my view (and I only speak for my view), even if the sex itself could be better (it's relative: some people would be content with any sex they could get, while some would rather *not* have it at all). I think it is a difficult question to pose in a meaningful way.
> I view it a bit like trying to get better at ice skating or maybe learning tango together. It's not the end of the world if you fall once in a while or accidentally cause discomfort by stepping on your partner's toes or whatever but why view the activity itself as bad even if you didn't have a good experience at one time or another. It's not terribly helpful. It takes two to tango and one to give up.
> The point of this thought process is to use such vocabulary in these contexts a bit more sparingly because the other partner will feel judged and retreat even more.
> So to answer the original question of how to minimize bad sex perhaps first start viewing this activity together in positive light and try to improve from there? (Idealistic. Naive. But I try!)


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> If you have a wide comfort zone in how you like to be touched and you are not easily 'disgusted' than sex will almost always feel physically good to you.
> 
> I am going to start with a couple of statements about human nature as I have observed it.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't you say that the width of that comfort zone can still be variable, depending on arousal levels and various other internal/external factors? In which case it is not clear what this 'outside' might be exactly. The boundaries might shift on a day to day basis and quite significantly over the longer term (this has been the case in my experience).

I am also not sure that the reason sex doesn't feel as good to some people it is because they are 'disgusted' by an aspect or other. (On occasion it might be but surely not the majority of the time? I would put a mental/emotional block maybe as the number 1 reason, combined with a physical LD predisposition.)


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Some people may find a perfect, eye-glazingly sensual lover only to find out later that they are absolutely useless in many other walks of life or vice versa (also not so black and white but I am sure you know what I am trying to say). The main point is that a relationship doesn't start with sexual compatibility as the first evaluation criterion. It is something you find out later on (because sexuality also evolves over time as well). It is also something that can be moulded (to some extent) and is never static. *It all depends on how willing and how far can a person go in compromise before he/she starts suffering in the relationship.
> * It is my belief that this 100% compatibility is an extremely rare thing and it cannot be viewed in isolation without looking at how compatible the couple is in other areas.
> 
> Another thought: in my opinion a couple in fact need not be 100% compatible in many areas in order to succeed as a couple through a variety walks of life. In fact it's better if there _are_ those slight mismatches. It's a little bit like +/- attracts. I am better in career stuff and with money. My wife is an amazing mother, wife and much better with people in general. We decided on those choices to assume certain roles. We have different interests and we are what you would call 'incompatible' in many areas, including many sexual aspects but it still works well overall. And it works well most of the time. We learn from each other and respect each other. We are also not afraid to try a little harder in those areas in which we don't excel in order to make this 'arrangement' work overall.
> Of course sexual compatibility is extremely important. It's just that I think we would fool ourselves if we found a mate who was 100% compatible in *one* particular area, thinking that we discovered the holy grail.


Yes all of this is true and I was not speaking of 100% compatibility in all areas of a relationship. I was just saying because I have experienced it and so have many others, that if sexual compatibility is something you refuse to be in any relationship without...you can find it. This does not also mean that person will be compatible with you in other ways. But for myself, there is no way I would fall deeply in love with someone and find out the rest of the compatibility markers without the promise of sexual compatibility first. It doesn't take me too long to figure out if it is there or not in order to know whether to proceed or not.

In a long term partner, I would want a lot of other areas of compatibility too. And yes, finding the sexual compatibility plus compatibility in most or all other areas too is not easy or common....but that does happen, too.

Some people would seek spiritual or financial compatibility above other areas including sexual, but they may find sexual compatibility too, as you are saying. It can develop.

For me, it is always either there or it is not and I know right away. The other types of compatibility can't be determined that easily and take more time in getting to know someone, for me. But without the sexual compatibility first, I won't make it to those steps.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that arousal level can expand comfort zone. When that happens it is often partly a function of disgust suppression. 

Boundaries may shift over time - but not on a day to day basis. 

As for my partner - it isn't a disgust factor. In fact she has the wider comfort zone of the two of us. 

But - touch her in an explicitly sexual way before arousal and it feels BAD to her. That isn't a mental block - it is a deeply ingrained response pattern. 






inmyprime said:


> Wouldn't you say that the width of that comfort zone can still be variable, depending on arousal levels and various other internal/external factors? In which case it is not clear what this 'outside' might be exactly. The boundaries might shift on a day to day basis and quite significantly over the longer term (this has been the case in my experience).
> 
> I am also not sure that the reason sex doesn't feel as good to some people it is because they are 'disgusted' by an aspect or other. (On occasion it might be but surely not the majority of the time? I would put a mental/emotional block maybe as the number 1 reason, combined with a physical LD predisposition.)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes all of this is true and I was not speaking of 100% compatibility in all areas of a relationship. I was just saying because I have experienced it and so have many others, that if sexual compatibility is something you refuse to be in any relationship without...you can find it. This does not also mean that person will be compatible with you in other ways. But for myself, there is no way I would fall deeply in love with someone and find out the rest of the compatibility markers without the promise of sexual compatibility first. It doesn't take me too long to figure out if it is there or not in order to know whether to proceed or not.
> 
> In a long term partner, I would want a lot of other areas of compatibility too. And yes, finding the sexual compatibility plus compatibility in most or all other areas too is not easy or common....but that does happen, too.
> 
> ...


Interesting. It always seemed to me that things like spiritual and financial compatibility were pretty much up front and easy to discern while sexual compatibility takes a while to figure out. I suppose that may be colored by extreme success in the former and relative lack of success in the latter. It's probably also driven by my needing to be in love before sex, so by the time I may discern sexual incompatibility, I'm already twitterpated and all those happy love chemicals are clouding my judgment--I don't know if "love is blind" in general, but it sure seems to be wrt sexual compatibility.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, there have been good times. Generally it was during the rare occasions where sex was frequent, so it seemed more natural, and there as less pressure. Those coincided with times when she was actively interested / enthusiastic. These have been triggered in the past by my discussing our sex life, but after a few tries, that no longer works. 

She will go out in any weather rather than stay in the room for sex if she isn't in the mood. I'm talking multi-hour hikes in strong winds and sleet, with enough fog that we couldn't see anything. The only exception was in Polynesia where is was so hot in the afternoon the she couldn't go outside. No internet, so she finally decided there was nothing to do but have sex, so we actually had sex a few days in a row. Interestingly she gave every evidence of enjoying it and later talked about what a great trip it was. Next time we went somewhere similar, there was internet, so she had something else to do. 

She is not at all into exhibitionism, but does enjoy dressing in sexy ways for me. 







inmyprime said:


> snip
> Can I ask you if you ever had a sexual encounter with her that was close to your ideal? How did it come about? What triggered it? What could be done for it to be repeated?
> A lot of the time her head may not be in the right place to let go. Try to plan a weekend designed only for one purpose but don't put her on the spot about it. Go somewhere with bad whether (i highly recommend U.K. ) so that you get so bored in the hotel room out of your minds that you just won't have much choice but to **** each other unconscious to stay alive. Try role games so that she can distance herself and pretend to be someone else for one weekend if she's uncomfortable with herself. Play dare games: getting her to walk around in public in a short dress or jacket/trench coat and **** me boots - one of my favourite things to do with my wife.
> snip


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> If it's that bad at the time, then why not stop it? Perhaps you hope it will get better as time passes? Or do you continue out of fear of hurting the partner if you suddenly stopped?
> I guess what I was trying to get at is that *the activity* of having sex itself is surely a positive thing, and not a bad thing in my view (and I only speak for my view), even if the sex itself could be better (it's relative: some people would be content with any sex they could get, while some would rather *not* have it at all). I think it is a difficult question to pose in a meaningful way.
> I view it a bit like trying to get better at ice skating or maybe learning tango together. It's not the end of the world if you fall once in a while or accidentally cause discomfort by stepping on your partner's toes or whatever but why view the activity itself as bad even if you didn't have a good experience at one time or another. It's not terribly helpful. It takes two to tango and one to give up.
> The point of this thought process is to use such vocabulary in these contexts a bit more sparingly because the other partner will feel judged and retreat even more.
> So to answer the original question of how to minimize bad sex perhaps first start viewing this activity together in positive light and try to improve from there? (Idealistic. Naive. But I try!)


Bad sex isn't just an LD thing. HDs can have bad sex too. 

And yes, much like you say, you can't just stop it, or call it bad sex because then not only have you had bad sex, you've tromped all over your partner's feelings and turned something that was just minorly bad into something terrible.


----------



## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Men rarely if ever have bad sex, even if she just lays there, feels pretty damn good.

I've had my moments where it seemed like the attraction was there but when the clothes came off it just missed the mark and a repeat performance wouldn't be wise. Also had whisky d*** once or twice I'll admit, always leads to bad sex. I've faked orgasm a few times, I deal with periodic depression and the anti-depressants make it difficult to finish, if I know she's had enough I'll just fake it so we can sleep.

Someone else already said they wouldn't continue a relationship with a woman if she doesn't orgasm hard just from PIV sex and I agree with that. She needs to be able to get off on my penis or I won't feel confident she's really into me even if she seems like she is, she's compromising. I understand a lot of women say they can't O from PIV sex, but I think it's because a lot of women aren't that into their partner and need to touch themselves, use vibrators, picture someone else, whatever. Either way, it's something I need in a sexual partner, at least until the relationship is starting if it changed due to age and circumstance that's a different story.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think opinions vary.

For me, if my partner isn't actively enjoying, its bad sex. "enjoying" doesn't need to be direct physical pleasure / O at the moment, it is enough if they are having fun doing things for me. (since I know I will reciprocate later).






marriageontherocks2 said:


> Men rarely if ever have bad sex, even if she just lays there, feels pretty damn good.
> 
> I've had my moments where it seemed like the attraction was there but when the clothes came off it just missed the mark and a repeat performance wouldn't be wise. Also had whisky d*** once or twice I'll admit, always leads to bad sex. I've faked orgasm a few times, I deal with periodic depression and the anti-depressants make it difficult to finish, if I know she's had enough I'll just fake it so we can sleep.
> 
> Someone else already said they wouldn't continue a relationship with a woman if she doesn't orgasm hard just from PIV sex and I agree with that. She needs to be able to get off on my penis or I won't feel confident she's really into me even if she seems like she is, she's compromising. I understand a lot of women say they can't O from PIV sex, but I think it's because a lot of women aren't that into their partner and need to touch themselves, use vibrators, picture someone else, whatever. Either way, it's something I need in a sexual partner, at least until the relationship is starting if it changed due to age and circumstance that's a different story.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

:surprise:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I actually learned years ago when I was very young, that any guy who claimed "all sex was good" even if the woman didn't even get into it and just laid there, that I should run far and fast from these guys. They were typically the ones who knew very little about women's pleasure and thought sex was all about the man.

But then to say it is all good even if she's just laying there, but she ALSO has to "orgasm HARD from just PIV sex"? How would this HARD ORGASM present itself? Just laying there and a tiny flicker of a smile passes over her face while the rest of the time she looks dead? I guess she can go from zero arousal to 100% HARD ORGASM in the blink of an eye? I further have to suppose that any man who feels this way must not actually know much about women's pleasure and they may be filling in the blanks from porn or something? Not sure how else any of this could make sense. :scratchhead:


----------



## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

For the most part I'm cumming each time so the sex isn't bad for men, even if she is a boring lay, it's not the "best", but it's not "bad" because men just need the physical contraction on their penis to reach orgasm. The fact that prostitution is the worlds oldest profession should clue you in that men can enjoy sex when only they're getting off and zero emotional attachment. If all sex where the woman isn't hitting the roof is "bad sex" then hooking and stripping wouldn't be a billion-dollar industry.

If a woman lays there and doesn't orgasm from sex, I wouldn't seek it out again or start a relationship, but since I orgasmed I wouldn't qualify it as bad either. The ones I would have a relationship with are the ones who orgasm just from my **** PIV, because every woman who has came just from PIV with me admits that it's a much better and harder orgasm than simply clit play. it doesn't have to be every time, but it needs to happen often. if she can't reach climax from PIV sex with me ever? No need to continue the relationship, she's likely frigid and sex will die on the vine or she looks elsewhere once she has you locked in.


----------



## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

It is very simple. Great communication before sex results in great sex. I let women know what I like and ask what they like. During sex I am not shy about asking a woman to do something I like and if I see she is not very aroused, I will ask what can I do to bring her over the top. I do not believe in trial and error when it comes to sex. Plus no woman can ask for something I am not willing to do. Your mind is really your largest sex orgasm. Learn and then set the mood with what you say. I would get women wet before I even undressed them. Learn how to turn them on with your words and actions.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

A few thoughts from an old guy.

As the sex therapist that helped save my marriage explained, the "best sex" is a form of adult recess with a close friend, it is playful and exploratory. Sometimes you are both on your A-game and sometimes only one of you is on your A-game and once in a while you will both be having a bad day. But like sports, you practice and practice and some days you are off, some days you learn things, and some days you both hit home runs. We should not expect sex to be "perfect" every time. If we do we will create impossible performance anxiety. Instead of calling something bad sex, think of it as not being on top of your game or playing up to your skill level on a particular day.

If one of you is bad time after time after time, then you need to get some special coaching (like with a sex therapist) or do extra training (kegels, affirmations, self hypnosis, self soothing ala Schnarch, books, masturbation, etc.) to regain your confidence and improve your skills).

Now as to 100% sexual compatibility and falling in love. 

Oh, my. 

Let's learn a little bit more about how people really fall in love. The following story is about the 36 questions you and a person can discuss to speed up the process of falling in love. Remember that the mind is the body's biggest and most powerful sex organ. Note that the 37th question is big wedding or small and that not a single question discusses fetishes, sexual fantasies, or favorite sexual positions. Not a single question mind you. But all 36 help identify if there is compatibility. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/fashion/no-37-big-wedding-or-small.html?_r=0 

Yes, sexual compatibility in a long term marriage is important, but so are all kinds of other things. This forum is about marriage and in particular sex in marriage. It has generally become a discussion of sexual problems in marriage. Often it is one person searching for support in feeling that their partner is broken and needs to be fixed or a partner who is desperately unhappy. As such there is a lot of self-selection for those that read this forum. Those of us here are not a typical cross section of the adult population.

To me sex can be bad. I have had a wife who used sex as a way to emotionally hurt me. That was bad sex. We worked through that and now I have a wife who loves me so much she will enjoy using her body to have sex with me, even though it is more than she would prefer and even though we both know she may or may not orgasm. We can each find pleasure in being emotionally and sexually close to our spouse. 

Sometimes we need to self-sooth and push ourselves. Kind of like pushing to go to the gym, we might not want to, but we know it is good for us in the long run, that it makes us better and allows us to do way more fun stuff. Kind of like pushing to read a text book about something you would like to know more about, even though you are no longer in a college class. Kind of like trying to learn more about relationships by participating in places like TAM. Kind of like giving up something you would like to do, because something important came up in your spouse, child, grandchilds life. We all compromise almost every day.

Enjoy.:wink2:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> For the most part I'm cumming each time so the sex isn't bad for men, even if she is a boring lay, it's not the "best", but it's not "bad" because men just need the physical contraction on their penis to reach orgasm. The fact that prostitution is the worlds oldest profession should clue you in that men can enjoy sex when only they're getting off and zero emotional attachment. If all sex where the woman isn't hitting the roof is "bad sex" then hooking and stripping wouldn't be a billion-dollar industry.
> 
> If a woman lays there and doesn't orgasm from sex, I wouldn't seek it out again or start a relationship, but since I orgasmed I wouldn't qualify it as bad either. The ones I would have a relationship with are the ones who orgasm just from my **** PIV, because every woman who has came just from PIV with me admits that it's a much better and harder orgasm than simply clit play. it doesn't have to be every time, but it needs to happen often. if she can't reach climax from PIV sex with me ever? No need to continue the relationship, she's likely frigid and sex will die on the vine or she looks elsewhere once she has you locked in.


I would reframe what you are saying as "an orgasm always feels pleasurable to me". Which is not the same as "all sex is good".

The prostitution example is irrelevant because women can have detached or meaningless sex but still have an orgasm, too.

Also your example of every woman YOU have been with saying that a PIV orgasm is superior to a clitoral orgasm is irrelevant because no matter how large your sample size is, it is not a representation of all women nor does it reflect your hypothesis that women who don't O from PIV are not attracted to the man sufficiently to get there or that they are sexually dysfunctional. 

You are simply misinformed or you have ignored the actual data on this fact. However I am a full believer that we should seek partners who meet our preferences, and that there is no "wrong" about an individual's preferences. So your preference that your woman can O from PIV with you is definitely what you should seek (I don't know your story, hopefully you are with such a woman).

Lastly, I never said that if it wasn't through the roof, it was "bad sex". There is a scale of how good it was and there's a lot IMO that determines it as good or bad.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> For the most part I'm cumming each time so the sex isn't bad for men, even if she is a boring lay, it's not the "best", but it's not "bad" because men just need the physical contraction on their penis to reach orgasm. The fact that prostitution is the worlds oldest profession should clue you in that men can enjoy sex when only they're getting off and zero emotional attachment. If all sex where the woman isn't hitting the roof is "bad sex" then hooking and stripping wouldn't be a billion-dollar industry.
> 
> If a woman lays there and doesn't orgasm from sex, I wouldn't seek it out again or start a relationship, but since I orgasmed I wouldn't qualify it as bad either. The ones I would have a relationship with are the ones who orgasm just from my **** PIV, because every woman who has came just from PIV with me admits that it's a much better and harder orgasm than simply clit play. it doesn't have to be every time, but it needs to happen often. if she can't reach climax from PIV sex with me ever? No need to continue the relationship, she's likely frigid and sex will die on the vine or she looks elsewhere once she has you locked in.


An orgasm doth not good sex make.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> For the most part I'm cumming each time so the sex isn't bad for men, even if she is a boring lay, it's not the "best", but it's not "bad" because men just need the physical contraction on their penis to reach orgasm. The fact that prostitution is the worlds oldest profession should clue you in that men can enjoy sex when only they're getting off and zero emotional attachment. If all sex where the woman isn't hitting the roof is "bad sex" then hooking and stripping wouldn't be a billion-dollar industry.
> 
> If a woman lays there and doesn't orgasm from sex, I wouldn't seek it out again or start a relationship, but since I orgasmed I wouldn't qualify it as bad either. The ones I would have a relationship with are the ones who orgasm just from my **** PIV, because every woman who has came just from PIV with me admits that it's a much better and harder orgasm than simply clit play. it doesn't have to be every time, but it needs to happen often. if she can't reach climax from PIV sex with me ever? No need to continue the relationship, she's likely frigid and sex will die on the vine or she looks elsewhere once she has you locked in.


I'm going to disagree from my POV, also a man. The fact that I came doesn't mean I can't perceive the sex as bad. For the sex to not be bad for me, both my partner and I have to have enjoyed it. My orgasm alone doesn't reach that threshold. My wife insists that she has had some very satisfying sex without orgasm and I take her word for that, so I'm not saying two orgasms = good sex or that <2 automatically means bad sex. I am saying that the equation must be balanced to some degree--even if it's physically one sided (one purely giving while the other is purely receiving) as there is also joy in the giving. Bottom line, the basic minimum for good sex is that each is truly getting something out of it, even if they're not getting the same thing at the same time.


----------



## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

samyeagar said:


> An orgasm doth not good sex make.


And a lack of her orgasm doesn't make it "bad"

This is what I initially wrote:



> Men rarely if ever have bad sex, even if she just lays there, feels pretty damn good.


Women don't drive the prostitution market, men do. Men aren't idiots they know the stripper or prostitute is not enjoying themselves, yet men are still fully capable of enjoying the sex and getting off. That's all I'm saying. Have I had sex where the woman ended up rather uninterested or maybe just sexually repressed and a bit nervous? Sure, did I still bring it and give 100% effort and orgasm? You bet.

Is it as good as sex with my wife? Not even close, big difference between the sex you have with someone you love and connect with, who knows your likes and dislikes, and random sex with a near stranger or **** buddy. With my wife I know how to get her off in 30 seconds if I need to, I know every inch of her body. The sex is completely different.

But "bad sex"? Only when I had some whisky **** and couldn't perform a couple times in my life. Other than that, it's all been an experience that's enjoyable, some moreso than others.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> And a lack of her orgasm doesn't make it "bad"
> 
> This is what I initially wrote:
> 
> ...


I think you have a much lower threshold than I as to what constitutes non bad sex. I actually have pretty high standards as to what I expect the quality to be, and if it's not happening, I'll go so far as to just stop it right in its tracks, and regroup and try again later.


----------



## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I do like your post but you make sex seem like a lot of work. There are times when my wife says she is not in the mood and then ends up having a very intense orgasm that leaves her exhausted. I do not view sex as a sport. I view it as an art form. Like a good artist, with the right colors and brush strokes, anything can be made to look good.  I am 66 how old are you?



Young at Heart said:


> A few thoughts from an old guy.
> 
> As the sex therapist that helped save my marriage explained, the "best sex" is a form of adult recess with a close friend, it is playful and exploratory. Sometimes you are both on your A-game and sometimes only one of you is on your A-game and once in a while you will both be having a bad day. But like sports, you practice and practice and some days you are off, some days you learn things, and some days you both hit home runs. We should not expect sex to be "perfect" every time. If we do we will create impossible performance anxiety. Instead of calling something bad sex, think of it as not being on top of your game or playing up to your skill level on a particular day.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> I do like your post but you make sex seem like a lot of work. There are times when my wife says she is not in the mood and then ends up having a very intense orgasm that leaves her exhausted. I do not view sex as a sport. I view it as an art form. Like a good artist, with the right colors and brush strokes, anything can be made to look good.  I am 66 how old are you?


Great art is also hard work. Masterpieces are not created by those who aren't fully invested in the medium.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Great art is also hard work. Masterpieces are not created by those who aren't fully invested in the medium.


I suppose some great art does require hard work, that said most of it doesn't especially for those who have a talent for it.

As someone who has my own artwork in two national collections and various private collections (watercolours mostly). I have always found it very easy to draw, paint and do photography well, to the point that it is the easiest work I have ever done. If it weren't for the time it takes, I would say it requires no work at all.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Great art is also hard work. Masterpieces are not created by those who aren't fully invested in the medium.


Ah, but a masterpiece is in the eye of the beholder, not the artist. Many masterpieces have been created, written, filmed and likely **** ed by artists who thought their work trite, dull and lackluster. Yet the consumer of that work of art can view it much differently.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Personal said:


> I suppose some great art does require hard work, that said most of it doesn't especially for those who have a talent for it.
> 
> As someone who has my own artwork in two national collections and various private collections (watercolours mostly). I have always found it very easy to draw, paint and do photography well, to the point that it is the easiest work I have ever done. If it weren't for the time it takes, I would say it requires no work at all.


You must really be something!

Beethoven, Tolstoy, Speilberg, Monet; all these brilliant and, dare I say natural, artists, put real effort into their work. Even aside from the time involved, The Eroica Symphony, War and Peace, Schindler's List, and even the Water Lilies all requires a good deal of work. 

The difference is that it doesn't always feel like work, because the artist is driven to express himself, so it must come out--but work it is. The artist may even be enjoying himself, but that doesn't mean it's not work. Likewise, good sex usually takes some effort, but we're not complaining because we're driven to do so, and we're enjoying the process. 

If you still doubt, consider the flipside. How many lazy lovers are considered great lovers?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Fozzy said:


> Ah, but a masterpiece is in the eye of the beholder, not the artist. Many masterpieces have been created, written, filmed and likely **** ed by artists who thought their work trite, dull and lackluster. Yet the consumer of that work of art can view it much differently.


Conversely, many artists (or people who fancy themselves such) thing they've created something magnificent, when the audience/critic ultimately finds it to be without artistic merit. This closely resembles what the ladies on this board think of many men who have fancied themselves great lovers.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Men rarely if ever have bad sex, *even if she just lays there*, feels pretty damn good.


For sure. If she - on the other hand - just gets up and leaves, it doesn't feel nearly as good!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> I suppose some great art does require hard work, that said most of it doesn't especially for those who have a talent for it.
> 
> As someone who has my own artwork in two national collections and various private collections (watercolours mostly). I have always found it very easy to draw, paint and do photography well, to the point that it is the easiest work I have ever done. If it weren't for the time it takes, I would say it requires no work at all.


It depends on the type of art and the level you strife to be at. 'Talent' is a difficult concept: I would say talent is mostly the ability and persistence on being able to focus on the right thing for a prolonged amount of time, in a most efficient way. I always associated talent with a lot of hard work...But that's probably because I am not talented enough :smile2:


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I actually learned years ago when I was very young, that any guy who claimed "all sex was good" even if the woman didn't even get into it and just laid there, that I should run far and fast from these guys. They were typically the ones who knew very little about women's pleasure and thought sex was all about the man.
> 
> But then to say it is all good even if she's just laying there, but she ALSO has to "orgasm HARD from just PIV sex"? How would this HARD ORGASM present itself? Just laying there and a tiny flicker of a smile passes over her face while the rest of the time she looks dead? I guess she can go from zero arousal to 100% HARD ORGASM in the blink of an eye? I further have to suppose that any man who feels this way must not actually know much about women's pleasure and they may be filling in the blanks from porn or something? Not sure how else any of this could make sense. :scratchhead:


Actually, like a good boy who did his homework, I used to think that it should always be about the woman. I was jumping through hoops and beyond trying to please and be as attentive as possible in bed. All it did was making her too self-conscious and put her under pressure to have to enjoy it. It was not until I put everything that I learnt on its head and tried something very different. Once I tried angry & selfish sex: she became completely wild and let go of all of her inhibitions. And since then, unless I make it mostly about myself (I don't, but I make her think that I do), she doesn't let go and get to 'that' place. Obviously she could be a special case though I read a few other women commenting on the same thing around these parts so one has to find the right style with different people/for different situations. (Obviously variation is also necessary but the general 'thrust' of dominance and (perceived) selfishness, so to speak, seems to be the name of the game for some reason.

I want to try other type of sex with her, the emotionally connected one that people talk about here but we just end up arguing about something stupid in the end or she has outbursts of laughter so naturally she gets punished in the end no matter what if anything is going to happen...

The brain may be the biggest sex organ but woman's brain also seems the biggest mystery :frown2::scratchhead:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Actually, like a good boy who did his homework, I used to think that it should always be about the woman. I was jumping through hoops and beyond trying to please and be as attentive as possible in bed. All it did was making her too self-conscious and put her under pressure to have to enjoy it. It was not until I put everything that I learnt on its head and tried something very different. Once I tried angry & selfish sex: she became completely wild and let go of all of her inhibitions. And since then, unless I make it mostly about myself (I don't, but I make her think that I do), she doesn't let go and get to 'that' place. Obviously she could be a special case though I read a few other women commenting on the same thing around these parts so one has to find the right style with different people/for different situations. (Obviously variation is also necessary but the general 'thrust' of dominance and (perceived) selfishness, so to speak, seems to be the name of the game for some reason.
> 
> I want to try other type of sex with her, the emotionally connected one that people talk about here but we just end up arguing about something stupid in the end or she has outbursts of laughter so naturally she gets punished in the end no matter what if anything is going to happen...
> 
> The brain may be the biggest sex organ but woman's brain also seems the biggest mystery :frown2::scratchhead:


Lotsa' dittos here. I also did everything I could to learn and to prepare myself. Then when the time came with my wife, she wanted none of that. She just wanted to do it. She didn't want me worrying about her in general or her orgasm in particular. She does love the focus to be on her through dinner, walks, massages, caresses, etc--anything leading up to the act, but once both naked, any focus on her arousal is a quick trip to 'not gonna' happen.'


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I believe Personal. He has always come across as totally genuine to me. 




inmyprime said:


> It depends on the type of art and the level you strife to be at. 'Talent' is a difficult concept: I would say talent is mostly the ability and persistence on being able to focus on the right thing for a prolonged amount of time, in a most efficient way. I always associated talent with a lot of hard work...But that's probably because I am not talented enough :smile2:


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Conversely, many artists (or people who fancy themselves such) thing they've created something magnificent, when the audience/critic ultimately finds it to be without artistic merit. This closely resembles what the ladies on this board think of many men who have fancied themselves great lovers.


I suspect not just men...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Actually, like a good boy who did his homework, I used to think that it should always be about the woman. I was jumping through hoops and beyond trying to please and be as attentive as possible in bed. All it did was making her too self-conscious and put her under pressure to have to enjoy it. It was not until I put everything that I learnt on its head and tried something very different. Once I tried angry & selfish sex: she became completely wild and let go of all of her inhibitions. And since then, unless I make it mostly about myself (I don't, but I make her think that I do), she doesn't let go and get to 'that' place. Obviously she could be a special case though I read a few other women commenting on the same thing around these parts so one has to find the right style with different people/for different situations. (Obviously variation is also necessary but the general 'thrust' of dominance and (perceived) selfishness, so to speak, seems to be the name of the game for some reason.
> 
> I want to try other type of sex with her, the emotionally connected one that people talk about here but we just end up arguing about something stupid in the end or she has outbursts of laughter so naturally she gets punished in the end no matter what if anything is going to happen...
> 
> The brain may be the biggest sex organ but woman's brain also seems the biggest mystery :frown2::scratchhead:


No denying that the woman's sexual brain is a mystery to many men.

Though I'd like to point out that nowhere in the post of mine you quoted did I say that "it should always be about the woman". Yes, I did say there are some men who think it should be all about the man, with some distaste for this. But making it all about "me" would be just as distasteful to me as far as organic sex goes. Yeah, bleah. Neither of us want to be under some kind of microscope.

I want us both to be adored and cared for and cherished and loved and sexualized and sexy and fun and exuberant and playful. Neither of our pleasure or ideas or fun should come at the expense of the other and it should all flow forward naturally. Sometimes one of us is doing more work to get the other one to a place or platform or release, but the exchange comes around and the other experiences the other side of it. The work side of it doesn't feel like work and the pleasure side of it doesn't feel like they are under a microscope.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that most women did not orgasm from PIV alone. And some 2/3 to 3/4 of women have admitted to faking orgasm at one time or another -- or often.

These sorts of stats make me wonder a lot about claims like "men do not have bad sex"

Perspective is everything, is it not? And isn't that what this thread is about?


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> An orgasm doth not good sex make.


It may not be a sufficient condition, but it is a necessary one. For me, at least.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

My wife claims sex still feels good even without orgasm. Not sure it's the same for oral. Though this almost never happens (that she doesn't orgasm). It used to, when she was younger while for me it was the opposite problem (come too quickly). On the other hand, for a guy, climax is probably 99% of the aim...She didn't use to come from PIV before kids but it changed after and now she claims the two orgasms feel very different (but both good).
I think the sensations from PIV are stronger throughout for her, if that makes any sense.
I know she would probably not engage herself if she feels strongly she might not climax (although I can't quite understand how one can predict it in advance...Whenever I am stressed and sex is last thing on my mind and we then have sex, it all changes completely and desire to do it wins over everything else. These psychological barriers must be bigger to overcome for some women, or not possible to overcome at all).


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I believe Personal. He has always come across as totally genuine to me.


I am not sure what I wrote contradicts Personal's view (unless I misunderstood you which is entirely possible). It just depends: obviously you need both talent and hard work to end up at the top. Perhaps some people with more talent (or predisposition for a particular art form) may need less hours to get to the same result while others may need more hours (with less talent) but one doesn't really work without the other.
Can you imagine a gymnast or dancer becomin successful/win prizes without putting in many hours and perfecting their skills? Or a writer finishing a book by just being talented?
No matter how talented, there aren't really many shortcuts in any art form IMO. And if there are, they will be quickly 'arbitraged' and the bar will be raised by people who have both the skill set/talent *and* put in many hours.
I know that in my profession, no matter how talented one is, it will be impossible to execute and get to the top 10 without a life-long dedication and many hours of work.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

I am not sure there IS such a thing as "bad" sex. Sex is sex...go for it!


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

wild jade said:


> These sorts of stats make me wonder a lot about claims like "men do not have bad sex"


I have had bad sex. I have also tried to fake an orgasm.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

toblerone said:


> I have had a lot of bad sex.


I stopped sympathising after the word " a lot" :wink2:


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I stopped sympathising after the word " a lot" :wink2:


After a while I learned to start saying no.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

toblerone said:


> After a while I learned to start saying no.




To sex? How do you know it is going to be bad in advance? Or do you say no afterwards? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Names stricken off the booty call registry!


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Generally I'd agree. I think it could be possible to occasionally have good one-sided sex where one person is just pleasing the other. That can be OK as long as on average things balance. In general though I would expect both people to get off during sex. 




wild jade said:


> It may not be a sufficient condition, but it is a necessary one. For me, at least.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> How do you know it is going to be bad in advance?


That question alone likely deserves a thread on its own.

I imagine here at TAM, there are those that have preemptively determined that it will just always be bad based on a long series of undesirable experiences and have stopped trying.

In my opinion these are likely performance-driven individuals that likely set unattainable goals for the quality of intimacy. Then afterwards if the goal can not be met, things were bad. Too many repetitions of this eventually comes to mean that things will always be bad. 

Generally speaking sexuality does NOT respond to goals. If anything one's sexuality will force one to deal with the fact that you have to be yourself and NOT a "better" someone else that you strive to be. No one can feel loved if they are in the process of attacking who they actually are and doing the same to their partners.

Badsanta


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Generally I'd agree. I think it could be possible to occasionally have good one-sided sex where one person is just pleasing the other. That can be OK as long as on average things balance. In general though I would expect *both people to get off* during sex.


The ones who are watching or the ones who are actually having sex? :surprise:
Sorry, wrong thread.:woohoo:


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I'm not worried about getting off. I'm really good at sex. I have an orgasm almost every time!


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Vinnydee said:


> I do like your post but you make sex seem like a lot of work. There are times when my wife says she is not in the mood and then ends up having a very intense orgasm that leaves her exhausted. I do not view sex as a sport. I view it as an art form. Like a good artist, with the right colors and brush strokes, anything can be made to look good.  I am 66 how old are you?


68.

I really don't treat it totally like sport, but the sex therapist I worked with thought that was a good analogy. I kind of agree that too many people are so desperate for sex that each opportunity takes on huge significance in their mind and they want it to be "perfect" which just increases the performance anxiety. Sex should be fun and playful. If you try something and it doesn't work you should both laugh about it and say you will try again.

As to an artistic form of sex. OK, but again, I don't think you want to hold up the ideal of a masterpiece each time or perfection in brush strokes, color, shading, perspective, etc. otherwise one might again face performance anxiety.

I enjoy your comments and different perspective.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

😊 I don't agree with almost everything that has been posted in the last few pages. Maybe if I get chunks of time I can expand but...yeah just a lot of no-nope-nuh up over here.


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I don't agree with almost everything that has been posted in the last few pages. Maybe if I get chunks of time I can expand but...yeah just a lot of no-nope-nuh up over here.


Same. Actually, I am thinking I need to stop reading this thread because it's making me feel like I should go dig a hole and bury myself in it. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A lot has been posted. Any hints what parts you don't agree with?



FrenchFry said:


> 😊 I don't agree with almost everything that has been posted in the last few pages. Maybe if I get chunks of time I can expand but...yeah just a lot of no-nope-nuh up over here.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

toblerone said:


> I have had bad sex. I have also tried to fake an orgasm.


OK I am a naive 50 yr old woman but how can a man fake it? I can feel it when he is about to cum as his **** gets bigger. Um there is also physical evidence left behind.

Lol always learning, never surprised by anything I read here.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Generally I'd agree. I think it could be possible to occasionally have good one-sided sex where one person is just pleasing the other. That can be OK as long as on average things balance. In general though I would expect both people to get off during sex.


At times we have great one sided sex, NSA BJ's or oral would be an example. Sometimes I am super tired or already had sex earlier that day so I am happy, turned on to let him have another O for the day. MrH is a very giving lover and I like to return that back to him, take the pressure off and tell him this session is all about him.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> OK I am a naive 50 yr old woman but how can a man fake it? I can feel it when he is about to cum as his **** gets bigger. Um there is also physical evidence left behind.
> 
> Lol always learning, never surprised by anything I read here.


Actually I remember faking it once. Aons ago while in boarding school, I was having my usual afternoon 'me' time when my then girlfriend (now wife) came in (not long after I finished taming the one-eyed snake) and wanted to fool around. I was too embarrassed to tell her that I just finished. We did the usual routine: I serviced her, then she switched to me and I worried it would take me too long to come so I put on my best Meg Ryan face and pretended to come in a nearby towel by rolling over onto it, vigorously. 
I think it was quite a believable performance and she didn't follow up to 'check' for the evidence so I was in the clear that time. Except I couldn't shake off that boner pretty much for the rest of the day which was painful and noticeable (to be that young and covered in acne again..). 
It's possible for men to fake. It's actually easier because the woman is unlikely to ever suspect such a pathetic act. Faking while inside should be even easier. But I haven't done it since that time. It was too traumatic. I learnt to be always on 'standby' instead.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Actually I remember faking it once. Aons ago while in boarding school, I was having my usual afternoon 'me' time when my then girlfriend (now wife) came in (not long after I finished taming the one-eyed snake) and wanted to fool around. I was too embarrassed to tell her that I just finished. We did the usual routine: I serviced her, then she switched to me and I worried it would take me too long to come so I put on my best Meg Ryan face and pretended to come in a nearby towel by rolling over onto it.
> I think it was quite a believable performance and she didn't follow up to 'check' for the evidence so I was in the clear that time. Except I couldn't shake off that boner pretty much for the rest of the day which was painful and noticeable (to be that young and covered in acne again..).
> It's possible for men to fake. Faking while inside should be even easier. But I haven't done it since that time. It was too traumatic. I learnt to be always on 'standby'.


I'm dim, obviously.OK it is understandable that young, inexperienced people might be fooled by faking but surely not grown adults. As for


> Faking while inside should be even easier.


 do you mean with a condom on? 

Not you IMP but as a general comment on bad sex, no wonder there is so much of it if people are faking. Again, talking about mature, grown ups here.... I faked it very early on in my relationship with MrH, bad form I know and I have all sorts of stupid excuses but MrH sat me down and asked me outright and made me be honest with him. Ever since then we have had very open and honest discussion on sex. He is braver at some aspects of these discussion and I am braver on others but we are comfortable talking about most of it. Keep in mind we are both on our second marriage where the first marriage had become sexless and neither want to ever be in that position again.

How to minimise bad sex? Have the guts to talk about it.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> I'm dim, obviously.OK it is understandable that young, inexperienced people might be fooled by faking but surely not grown adults. As for do you mean with a condom on?
> 
> Not you IMP but as a general comment on bad sex, no wonder there is so much of it if people are faking. Again, talking about mature, grown ups here.... I faked it very early on in my relationship with MrH, bad form I know and I have all sorts of stupid excuses but MrH sat me down and asked me outright and made me be honest with him. Ever since then we have had very open and honest discussion on sex. He is braver at some aspects of these discussion and I am braver on others but we are comfortable talking about most of it. Keep in mind we are both on our second marriage where the first marriage had become sexless and neither want to ever be in that position again.
> 
> How to minimise bad sex? Have the guts to talk about it.


Faking with a condom is more or less foolproof. Without: I guess if one doesn't expect Niagara Falls to leak out immediately, it might still be possible. I didn't think the vagina is that sensitive/perceptive? 
But you are right, an experienced woman might bust one and I probably wouldn't attempt to do it now. 
I don't think my wife ever faked. She is not the type. She would rather humiliate me with the truth than humiliate me with a lie I think.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*MrsHolland
OK I am a naive 50 yr old woman but how can a man fake it?*

I am older (male) than most posters and we had to use lube. My volume isn't that great due to an enlarged (rigid so it restricts output) prostate. I could tell my W was wanting to end the session and was showing signs that were a big turn-off for me. Between the lube and her lack of interest (her attitude and words) I did a Meg Ryan. Sex (she dragged her feet) was maybe 6X a year at that time and I was getting fed up so we had sex a few more times and the last time I had enough and faked it for the last time.

I just got tired of being the horn-dog in her opinion. She told me men my age all have ED, what was wrong with me because I didn't have ED, and she was too old for PIV sex. I tried other things but that wound up being a negative experience for me and her.

I am a "creampie" guy but age has caught up with me.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Mrs Holland
I faked it very early on in my relationship with MrH, bad form I know and I have all sorts of stupid excuses but MrH sat me down and asked me outright and made me be honest with him.*

I wish more people were like you.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed - but its not just "guts". You also need a partner who is willing to listen to what you are saying and not get defensive at every request that the do something different. 



MrsHolland said:


> snip
> 
> How to minimise bad sex? Have the guts to talk about it.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Faking with a condom is more or less foolproof. Without: I guess if one doesn't expect Niagara Falls to leak out immediately, it might still be possible. *I didn't think the vagina is that sensitive/perceptive? *
> But you are right, an experienced woman might bust one and I probably wouldn't attempt to do it now.
> I don't think my wife ever faked. She is not the type. She would rather humiliate me with the truth than humiliate me with a lie I think.


Yes the vagina is that perceptive. 

Maybe some of the minimising bad sex is also about knowing your partner extremely well. I know when he is about to O, when he wants to slow it down, how to slow it down, how to make him lose control etc. But this is with a man I am extremely attracted to and madly in love with. If I am not feeling connected then I don't put much mind power into the whole thing, if that makes sense.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Handy said:


> * Mrs Holland
> I faked it very early on in my relationship with MrH, bad form I know and I have all sorts of stupid excuses but MrH sat me down and asked me outright and made me be honest with him.*
> 
> I wish more people were like you.


Actually I wish more people were like MrH. He was the one that made me have the discussion and told me that it had to be an honest sexual relationship. Consequently 6 years down the track I have never faked it again and I feel comfortable telling him if I'm not going to get there but still enjoying the experience. I also feel powerful and turned on when I tell him that what I want is a session that is all about him, I know ahead of time I'm not in the mood for it to be about "us", too tired etc.
He very much enjoys being the center of attention sometimes, it gives him permission (sub consciously) to let go and be free.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that most women did not orgasm from PIV alone. And some 2/3 to 3/4 of women have admitted to faking orgasm at one time or another -- or often.
> 
> These sorts of stats make me wonder a lot about claims like "men do not have bad sex"


Well, the men had sex that was good for them even though it was not "good" for their partner. Which, as you say, is one of the core concerns if the goal is to minimize bad sex.

Much of minimizing bad sex is being ruthless about partner selection. Some men are going to pair well with women who want him to be a "Boy Scout" and be attentive to her orgasms and make sure she always comes first. Some men are going to pair better with a woman who wants sex to be more mutual and free flowing. Some women want a man who is more forceful and some men are not comfortable being that aggressive.

And then there are those of us who are just lousy in bed, and the best way for us to minimize bad sex is simply not to have any.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Same. Actually, I am thinking I need to stop reading this thread because it's making me feel like I should go dig a hole and bury myself in it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Me too, but I'll try to explain my POV.

Sorry for not using Multi-quote, I'm just going to "at" the person.
@inmyprime



> It's not like your partner will remember and judge the whole of your sex life by the way the last sex encounter went? I think sometimes a large part of the problem is the mountain of negative narrative we apply with hindsight to these experiences which only reinforce the negative feedback loop. I don't mean to minimise those experiences but it's really all in our heads...? (including the orgasm itself: apparently a scientific fact). Ok, ready to be proclaimed to be the biggest ignoranus of the century by not showing enough understanding towards one side...


Starting from here--

You recall a handful specific times where it was kind of awkward, you were rushed for time and the environment was crappy.

How do you think you would feel if this was more than a handful of times? What would be your ratio from good times to bad times where you would roll the dice on a sexual encounter? If you knew 3 times out of seven, you would be actively having bad sex, would you take those odds?

What is in our heads vs. quantifiable numbers, is the question. I used to be a pushover and accept a worse ratio. I don't anymore and I have more sex because if it's bad 1 out of ten times it's okay. 1 out of 20 even better.



> But...sex can be all sorts of negative things: uncomfortable, painful, humiliating, sad, "bad" etc. Own it. Move on. (not you specifically). Try to make the best of it the next time around and avoid projection. Just make sure there's a next time...Otherwise what's the point?


How do you avoid all of these things if you cannot talk about it? Part of minimizing bad sex for me is being with a partner I can be honest with and frankly--my husband succeeds at this only 80% of the time. The men who won't hear any of it? It's going to be bad all the time.



> I guess what I was trying to get at is that the activity of having sex itself is surely a positive thing,


I disagree wholeheartedly. The activity of having sex is an activity. There are several other factors which makes it positive or negative.



> The point of this thought process is to use such vocabulary in these contexts a bit more sparingly because the other partner will feel judged and retreat even more.


Because we are talking about a partnered activity, it is imperative to be in tune with your partner to have a good time and thinking positively doesn't cut it if your partner is actively doing things that make sex bad. Furthermore, I dont' get that if you can't tell your partner xyz is bad out of fear of judgement and retreat, who can you tell and how is sex supposed to get better? 

@marriageontherocks



> The ones I would have a relationship with are the ones who orgasm just from my **** PIV, because every woman who has came just from PIV with me admits that it's a much better and harder orgasm than simply clit play. it doesn't have to be every time, but it needs to happen often. if she can't reach climax from PIV sex with me ever? No need to continue the relationship, she's likely frigid and sex will die on the vine or she looks elsewhere once she has you locked in.


Gentleman, this attitude is not uncommon. Women know this--which is why they fake orgasms until all of the new relationship hormones wear off, get real tired of the facade and begin starfishing you.

Ask me how I know. 

@Young at Heart


> the "best sex" is a form of adult recess with a close friend, it is playful and exploratory. Sometimes you are both on your A-game and sometimes only one of you is on your A-game and once in a while you will both be having a bad day. But like sports, you practice and practice and some days you are off, some days you learn things, and some days you both hit home runs. We should not expect sex to be "perfect" every time. If we do we will create impossible performance anxiety.


There is a wide spectrum between "perfect" and "bad," and framing it like this feels like such a cop-out. I demand good to great and do not accept bad because bad always stems from not listening to myself (body, mind, soul) and not being in tune with my husband and not being honest with him.





> Sometimes we need to self-sooth and push ourselves. Kind of like pushing to go to the gym, we might not want to, but we know it is good for us in the long run, that it makes us better and allows us to do way more fun stuff.


If everytime I went to the gym my partner dropped a weight on me and then told me how much fun it was and how much closer he feels to me, I'd hate the gym too. It's not good for me in the long run to be crushed and then told how awesome that felt...because it didn't.

I am not programmed to find bad sex emotionally satisfying. If it is bad, it is emotionally *devastating. * Furthermore, if I am having bad sex while my partner is having great sex, there is a disconnect that needs to be addressed pronto. This isn't compromise to me, it's being told to eat a **** sandwich because of my supposed emotional nature and/or connection to sex. 



We have a couple stories of guys who faked it or it's bad sex when they didn't come...okay. So where I side-eye some men is when they would fully admit that they would have less sex if it was bad and didn't come--but they so rarely experience that that "all" sex is good. Basically I feel like you haven't experienced the frustration that can happen if you have sex but no orgasm several times, over and over. I don't believe that all the HDs on this board would accept a 1:4 ratio. LDs do and then get told that it should be okay because of connection. Eh.
@samyegar


> I think you have a much lower threshold than I as to what constitutes non bad sex. I actually have pretty high standards as to what I expect the quality to be, and if it's not happening, I'll go so far as to just stop it right in its tracks, and regroup and try again later.


This---I agree with 100%. It's part of the honesty in bed/in my relationship that I push for. I promise not to starfish in bed if he promises not to check out and keep drilling away at the warm hole. Be in or be out and if it's an out night--so be it. 

@inyprime


> I know she would probably not engage herself if she feels strongly she might not climax (although I can't quite understand how one can predict it in advance...Whenever I am stressed and sex is last thing on my mind and we then have sex, it all changes completely and desire to do it wins over everything else. These psychological barriers must be bigger to overcome for some women, or not possible to overcome at all).


There are the typical situations where I know it's not going to happen: Tired/sick/pain. I throw in angry and stressed for myself.

The one which is hardest to put a finger on is/feels like "you aren't willing to get me there." Emotionally, physically whatever. My husband is horny, but refuses to acknowledge how much he's been a douche is a common way that I get this feeling. Or my husband is horny but has forgotten a whole bunch of **** that needs to be done that now I have to do. Or my husband is horny but doesn't want to put in the work of building me up to an orgasm so the "grope and go" it is.

To minimize bad sex, I don't accept this. We either do it with mutual passion or don't until we get it together.
@badsanta


> Generally speaking sexuality does NOT respond to goals. If anything one's sexuality will force one to deal with the fact that you have to be yourself and NOT a "better" someone else that you strive to be. *No one can feel loved if they are in the process of attacking who they actually are and doing the same to their partners.*


Not in my experience. If I want my husband to have a better time in bed, it's easy to ask and execute. We don't accept being bad at work, you get called in, your boss tells you what she needs from you and you either execute or you don't. If you don't, there are consequences.

Sex works the same way for me.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

@FrenchFry

There was no suggestion that one shouldn't talk to each other about all these things. However when you write this: 




FrenchFry said:


> My husband is horny, but refuses to acknowledge how much he's been a douche is a common way that I get this feeling. Or my husband is horny but has forgotten a whole bunch of **** that needs to be done that now I have to do.


and this:



FrenchFry said:


> We don't accept being bad at work, you get called in, your boss tells you what she needs from you and you either execute or you don't. If you don't, there are consequences.
> 
> Sex works the same way for me.



I find it strange that consciously or subconsciously, sex still seems to be used as a type of reward mechanism in a marriage. The fact that whether you feel good or bad about sex has to be determined whether he 'did **** that needs to be done', is perhaps an indication on a subconscious level. I am not saying it is wrong - there is perhaps no other recourse for partner’s lousy behaviour - but it is an observation nevertheless. Probably a primal instinct.

From the guy’s perspective: the boss analogy would work if your boss called you in, to tell you, you are not getting this month’s pay because you didn’t bring groceries to the boss’ mother.

I realise a relationship is more intimate and intricate than that and things are more interconnected but whether people have bad sex or not, it’s important not to project onto the partner our insecurities or find reasons (I don’t mean you: your husband may well be a douche oftentimes and I am sure you have perfectly valid reasons to feel the way you feel).


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Yes the vagina is that perceptive.


But then where does the phrase 'is it in yet?' come from I wonder?


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I find it strange that consciously or subconsciously, sex still seems to be used as a type of reward mechanism in a marriage.


Calling it "reward mechanism" makes it sound cold, but I think in reality that's inevitable. And as you say, sometimes subconscious. 

It's a two-way cycle: if you're not doing the things that make me feel that you're really "in" this relationship, then *I* don't feel like doing the things that make *YOU* feel like I'm "in" this relationship. And round and round we go.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> Calling it "reward mechanism" makes it sound cold, but I think in reality that's inevitable. And as you say, sometimes subconscious.
> 
> It's a two-way cycle: if you're not doing the things that make me feel that you're really "in" this relationship, then *I* don't feel like doing the things that make *YOU* feel like I'm "in" this relationship. And round and round we go.


Yes, sure, but it automatically subordinates sex to a level where it becomes a chore and something to 'reward' the husband with rather than something that can be enjoyed in its own right and independently from other things. (This will probably sound like a foreign language).

It depends how skewed the balance becomes before a relationship stops being altruistic in nature and becomes purely transactional. Some might say that relationships are never altruistic in the first place and always transactional in nature. I'd like to believe it is not so and that at least humans, by having a brain and being conscious etc, can elevate the relationship between two people to a different level.

In any case it's interesting to read different takes which i guess was the point of the question. Maybe bad sex could be minimized by simply unloading the dishwasher once in a while


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> Calling it "reward mechanism" makes it sound cold, but I think in reality that's inevitable. And as you say, sometimes subconscious.
> 
> It's a two-way cycle: if you're not doing the things that make me feel that you're really "in" this relationship, then *I* don't feel like doing the things that make *YOU* feel like I'm "in" this relationship. And round and round we go.


Transactionalism at its best...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> But then where does the phrase 'is it in yet?' come from I wonder?


LOL. That question is for the penis thread, my friend.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I never minded or complained that I had to "earn" sex. I always assumed that would be how it worked. I did mind and complain that I did everything she asked for and still got turned down. I don't mind transactionalism. I do mind when my partner refuses to live up to the deal they negotiated.

And I think @FrenchFry is spot on. If I had an orgasm as rarely as H2 does, or if someone persisted in coming on to me after it was crystal clear I wasn't in the mood, making it equally clear they didn't give a hoot about my feelings, then I wouldn't want to have sex either. Remember, one way to completely eliminate bad sex is to stop having sex.  :laugh:


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, sure, but it automatically subordinates sex to a level where it becomes a chore and something to 'reward' the husband with rather than something that can be enjoyed in its own right and independently from other things. (This will probably sound like a foreign language).
> 
> It depends how skewed the balance becomes before a relationship stops being altruistic in nature and becomes purely transactional. Some might say that relationships are never altruistic in the first place and always transactional in nature. I'd like to believe it is not so and that at least humans, by having a brain and being conscious etc, can elevate the relationship between two people to a different level.
> 
> In any case it's interesting to read different takes which i guess was the point of the question. Maybe bad sex could be minimized by simply unloading the dishwasher once in a while


I didn't get the impression that @FrenchFry was being transactional at all.

At least as I was reading it, she was simply saying that she knows sex is going to be bad when her husband comes at it because he is horny, but without any regard for where she might be at, stressed, over-worked, mind elsewhere, or whatever. 

To me it sounds quite familiar. As a woman, you are often approached as basically just a receptacle or warm hole who is supposed to be thrilled to be treated that way. And IME that approach definitely results in some pretty seriously bad sex.


----------



## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

I feel that when sex becomes a bargaining chip, is withheld as a penalty, or given as a reward that is the definition of a marriage in trouble. It often at the very least leads to an affair by one or both.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> @FrenchFry
> *
> I find it strange that consciously or subconsciously, sex still seems to be used as a type of reward mechanism in a marriage. The fact that whether you feel good or bad about sex has to be determined whether he 'did **** that needs to be done*'


I had a whole long food analogy, but I stopped myself. 

It's not a reward mechanism. My husband's desire isn't affected as much by "stuff." Mine is. This is reality as it stands right now. What seems to be recommended here is for me, the stuffy person to be grateful that  my husband loves me and desires me and that I should take one for the team even if that mostly means my sex life is on the mediocre side due to only having an orgasm every once in awhile while he gets his every time because this is how he ~expresses his emotions.~

I've taken a different tack. My desire may be more affected by stuff but it's quantifiably higher when sex is good vs. bad. I know what I need to make sex good, I know what I need to make sex great. I communicate it clearly to my husband. Any stuff I can tackle myself I try. Anything my husband can do, he will try. The harder we try together, the better with full acknowledgement that sometimes stuff just happens and it will be better another day. If there are too many days where trying fails--that is an issue.

I don't demand perfection, but I can't accept offering emotional connection in exchange for true physical release. I can't get physical release if the conditions (which, for me have little to do with chores) aren't correct. So if we as a couple want more sex with each other, it behooves us--together--to strive for ideal conditions. If we can't do that-which is always a possibility- it would be better to split rather than be lopsided.




> I realise a relationship is more intimate and intricate than that and things are more interconnected but whether people have bad sex or not, it’s important not to project onto the partner our insecurities or find reasons (I don’t mean you: your husband may well be a douche oftentimes and I am sure you have perfectly valid reasons to feel the way you feel).


My husband is a douche, I am too so we get along pretty famously honestly. Again, however this feels like asking the lower desire partner to suck it up and accept that they will just have to have crappy sex sometimes rather than the HD partner taking a look at what they could do to minimize the crappy sex that happens. 

To me. it seems straightforward. I want to do things I like more often. Make it easy for me to like something, I'm going to do it more often. Make it more difficult or unappealing, I'm not going to search out for it. If it's outright bad, I'm going to avoid it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> [MENTION=29079]
> 
> I find it strange that consciously or subconsciously, sex still seems to be used as a type of reward mechanism in a marriage. The fact that whether you feel good or bad about sex has to be determined whether he 'did **** that needs to be done', is perhaps an indication on a subconscious level. I am not saying it is wrong - *there is perhaps no other recourse for partner’s lousy behaviour* - but it is an observation nevertheless. Probably a primal instinct.
> 
> ...


Look - are people able to decide for themselves if they want to have sex, or are they not? Or are people supposed to just "put out" for their partner regardless of whether they desire sex or their partner at any given moment?

Are we autonomous in this decision or not? Are we able to have our own decision about our own bodies (male or female), or not? It really is that simple, and you can't have it both ways.

If you (the general you) want your partner to actually desire you and want have connected sex with you....sorry but you will have to find out what your partner needs from you in order for them to feel that desire. Again, unless sex is something they "must" do because you live in a cave or in some backasswards dictator-relationship, then you are going to have to find out how to turn them on and how to eliminate the things that turn them off.

There's a lot of complaining around here about sex being "transactional" or as you said above, withholding sex is a type of "recourse". Then there are the complaints that "she is giving me sex but I can tell she doesn't enjoy it".

Not having sex with someone because they don't turn you on (in any given moment for whatever reason) is not "recourse". It is called having authority over one's own body and the freedom to have sex when they actually WANT to...along with the freedom to NOT have sex with someone they don't feel desire for (in any given moment). 

How in the world is this not simple and obvious? If you take your own situation (any specific person) out of the equation and just ask yourself the question: are we able to decide to not have sex we do not want, or are we supposed to have undesired sex that makes us feel horrible? it seems pretty obvious. Why would someone want to connect with you sexually if they don't desire you at all in that moment? Why would you even WANT them to? Talk about selfish. "You should just put out anyway whether you desire the sex or me or not and regardless of how I have treated you lately". Again...then come the complaints about starfishing. 

In my marriage, I was usually the one who could/would have had sex in almost any circumstance, and being upset at each other earlier wouldn't necessarily have made me not want sex. But my ex-h was not like that. If we were not in a good groove emotionally for any reason, he didn't want to have sex. This was not to punish me, it was not recourse, it was simply the way his body worked. Feeling disconnected = no sex until connected again. I would not have wanted him to "just put out anyway" in those circumstances, even though I still would have desired him and sex. It didn't matter, because if HE didn't also desire the sex, it would not be good sex. And anyway...ew. Who would want icky disconnected sex out of obligation only?

I am only addressing the very valid conditions that we all must understand create or dissipate desire in each other. I'm not addressing issues where one partner is straight up not attracted to the other and never will be. That occurs too and we hear about it here a lot, and I don't think there's any fixing that type of thing. There's also no cure for someone who simply doesn't and will never actually desire sex.

But for normally sexual people (as French Fry's example), there are conditions we all need within a long term sexual relationship to keep desiring each other. If you (anyone) want to pretend this shouldn't matter and your partner should just put out anyway....then it will be no wonder why your partner feels violated and will eventually just starfish you or ultimately, leave. THAT is how horrible bad sex is. It will kill the entire sex life and possibly the relationship. 

What do you want? Sex with someone who actually desires you, or sex with someone who feels obligated to "put out"?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am not willing to have sex if I don't like how M2 is treating me. 

And if we are scuffling - I need one full day of friendly / nice behavior before I will connect. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Look - are people able to decide for themselves if they want to have sex, or are they not? Or are people supposed to just "put out" for their partner regardless of whether they desire sex or their partner at any given moment?
> 
> Are we autonomous in this decision or not? Are we able to have our own decision about our own bodies (male or female), or not? It really is that simple, and you can't have it both ways.
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes I don’t particularly disagree with either of your points of view and understand exactly where you are coming from and how you arrived at it @faithfulwife and @FrenchFry.
I get it - it all comes back to the eternal discussion of LD vs HD (with all its many shades of grey) and how to handle the balance without either taking advantage or being taken advantage of.

It’s difficult to talk in generalities but the point is this: How much is one party willing to meet the other half way before feeling they are being taken advantage of in order to save the relationship?

One camp here is convinced that there’s no point going out of their way: people are who they are, they don’t generally change and if it doesn’t work, find somebody else or live with it. I get it.
Maybe I’m too naive or am extremely lucky to have someone who will go out of their way sometimes because I can be as stubborn as **** and not many people would probably put up with it. Maybe others had different experiences in their relationships and their partner just wouldn’t give into anything in their relationship so the self defense mechanism kicks in and they reason accordingly.
There is no right or wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe I’m too naive or am extremely lucky to have someone who will go out of their way sometimes because I can be as stubborn as **** and not many people would probably put up with it. Maybe others had different experiences in their relationships and their partner just wouldn’t give into anything in their relationship so the self defense mechanism kicks in and they reason accordingly.
> There is no right or wrong.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Be very careful with all that stubbornness. From personal experience...there WILL come a time when your wife refuses to compromise any further and it will be up to you to do the compromising. If you wish to keep the relationship then you will have to push through the stubbornness to meet her where she stands.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> @badsanta
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 @FrenchFry I do agree that if there are elements to a relationship that take "work" and that if someone is not making an effort to work through an issue that you are indeed very correct!

My comment was derived from Emily Nagoski's Ph. D. "Come As You Are" that suggests people are often way to critical on themselves in terms of being able to maintain a particular physical appearance and body weight. Some people with very healthy bodies end up starving themselves because society promotes models in magazines that are super thin. So if you actually have a healthy body, but you are starving yourself to loose an extra twenty pounds, and are ashamed of how you currently look... it will be impossible to achieve meaningful intimacy with your partner. 

Now if in that situation you apply your advice the spouse would step in, much like a boss at work, and tell you that you are beautiful just the way you are, and that you need to get your act together and be proud of yourself because hesitation and second guessing yourself is causing some serious issues between you two in the bedroom... well that indeed would be great! 

On the other hand if the person wanting to loose weight (that is already healthy to begin with) steps in and begins criticizing their partner that they both need to loose weight and be healthier, that will cause problems. Most people are healthy to begin with and just can't see it and refuse to accept it thinking that they always should be better. In the process they are refusing to love themselves. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Minimizing bad sex is certainly a fine goal and everyone who has sex should try to do this.

There seems to be an idea here that anyone who has good sex will always want sex and that only people who had bad sex want to avoid it. This is wrong. The stories of wives who have great sex when they have it (and say so) but rarely are willing to have sex are legend. This happens with me and the gym all the time; I rarely want to go but always feel great when I do. It's largely an issue of responsive desire vs spontaneous desire.

While I wouldn't expect my partner to have sex with me when they don't want to, I would expect them to work with their responsive desire to put themselves in a position to want to have sex (which, once begun, they would enjoy).

Not everyone needs to have an orgasm each time they have sex to enjoy it. I know of several women IRL (not my partners) who are perfectly content to have sex without an orgasm on occasion and enjoy it. Their only problem was their man insisting that they have one or feeling that it reflected badly on him if they didn't. This is in no way the case with all or even most women, but it is the case with many. If your partner wants to have sex but not feel pressured to have an orgasm, it is dismissive of them to act as if they don't have the capability to decide this for themselves. As a man, I have had occasions where, despite my partner's best efforts, I didn't orgasm and my partner did. In no way would I consider these encounters to be bad sex. Now, if one's definition of bad sex includes any occasion in which they didn't orgasm, then that's a different story. But is it "bad" because it was really bad or because somehow one doesn't consider it "fair"? If it's the latter, then I might question the relationship.

If my partner wants an orgasm and I want an orgasm and I could have one if my partner put in the effort but they chose not to, that would be a big problem. But, if my partner wants an orgasm and I don't think I'm capable of one at the time (regardless of my partner's willingness to try), I see absolutely no problem with giving my partner an orgasm (as long as I'm capable of it). What kind of marriage is it when one partner isn't willing to please the other (assuming that it's not a negative or painful experience for the giver)? 

I consider the attitude of "I won't be able to orgasm (for reasons having nothing to do with my SO) so my partner won't be able to either" to be unfair.

I think the attitude of "I won't be able to have an orgasm because my SO is too selfish to go to the effort of giving me one so I won't go to the effort of giving them an orgasm" to be entirely fair.

Of course, one should only have sex when one wants to. But if one partner wants to have sex once a month and the other wants to have sex 3 times a week, then lower frequency person can't really expect the higher frequency person to be happy with the relationship. If the lower frequency partner wants a good marriage, they're either going to have to find a partner who only wants sex once a month or they're going to have to compromise (same for the higher frequency partner). If it's true that (in LTRs) 75% of men have spontaneous desire and 75% or women have responsive desire, then insisting that any compromise is bad and that the only solution is for men and women with like sexual natures to match up is going to result in at least 50% of heterosexuals being unattached.

The best solution would be for the givers to pair up and live happily ever after while the takers pair up in mutual unhappiness.

But, it rarely seems to work out that way.

I've told all my children that, before they marry, they need to ask the question: "What would happen if I was horny and you weren't". The answer will let them know if they should proceed with planning the wedding.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I don’t particularly disagree with either of your points of view and understand exactly where you are coming from and how you arrived at it @faithfulwife and @FrenchFry.
> I get it - it all comes back to the eternal discussion of LD vs HD (with all its many shades of grey) and how to handle the balance without either taking advantage or being taken advantage of.
> 
> It’s difficult to talk in generalities but the point is this: How much is one party willing to meet the other half way before feeling they are being taken advantage of in order to save the relationship?
> ...


See but "going out of your way" sometimes and "compromising" weren't at all what I was talking about. Sexually speaking, I have no problem going way way WAY out of my way...and compromising to the point that I'm probably putting us both in danger ("sure, let's really try the chandalier this time!")

I was talking about when you do not want to be intimate with your partner because they are undesirable to you at the moment for any of a number of (usually temporary) reasons, and I was only talking about the people who are normally sexual and have reasonable on-going attraction to each other.

In those cases, there's no way for my body "compromise", likewise there was no way for my husband's body to "compromise". If we both want connected and passionate sex, this can't happen all on one side, period. If it is one sided, it isn't connected and passionate. So in a time when he or she has done something that shuts your body completely off to them at the moment, it is no longer about anything along the lines of compromise. It is a choice my body makes (to not be close to someone I don't desire in that moment) and I would never even attempt to move past what my body KNOWS it wants and doesn't want.

Granted, this is assuming that there will be steps taken to get back in a desiring frame of mind for one another. I'm not saying this type of disconnection should continue to go on. If there is never enough peace in the relationship to feel connected at all and sex literally never happens for this reason...that relationship is doomed, obviously. 

Also something that FrenchFry brought up but kind of got lost in the mix.....one partner being horny doesn't automatically make the other partner desire sex. In my marriage, I was pretty much horny night and day. But my husband quickly made it clear that he is not horny night and day. He is horny sometimes, not that often actually, but he had a high desire to have sex with me very often...which is different than being "horny". I both wanted to have sex with him and was horny, pretty much all the time. So the times when my horniness and/or desire converged with his desire, we had sex. But if my horniness alone was on the table (he wasn't horny or desiring sex with me at that moment), we did not have sex because he never had sex with me unless he was capable of a total connection and passion. If anything was off for him, his body would shut down and we would just wait until the situation had improved and both desired sex and each other again. Me coming to him to "get sex" because I was simply "horny" - - never turned into sex. He could see how sexually frustrated I might be in that moment...yet would just pat me on the head and tell me "it's ok honey, I know you will learn to deal with your horny little body within yourself, you're a big girl". And he was totally right, I did learn to deal with it. I actually feel so much healthier since I did learn that. (to note: he would do other things for me if I wanted him to if I was just "horny" when he wasn't and there were no other relationship issues at that time....but it was the *sex* I wanted, not the other things, so I rarely took him on his offer of other things)

If he had just "given me sex" at any and all times I was simply horny, our sex would have deteriorated into completely bad sex very quickly. He would have eventually starfished me. And he knew better than to ever let us drift into that territory. He was very sexually self aware.

On the other hand as far as actual compromise goes....he was excellent at true compromising and give and take and meeting me halfway (or more). That was a completely different dynamic.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I do think both partners have to consciously make an effort not to weaponize your sex life. It can be tempting. 





Faithful Wife said:


> Look - are people able to decide for themselves if they want to have sex, or are they not? Or are people supposed to just "put out" for their partner regardless of whether they desire sex or their partner at any given moment?
> 
> Are we autonomous in this decision or not? Are we able to have our own decision about our own bodies (male or female), or not? It really is that simple, and you can't have it both ways.
> 
> ...


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Honesty is key. If my technique is bad and there are things I can do to make it better for you, tell me. Don't be worried about hurting my feelings. Yes, I will be hurt when you tell me my technique stinks. But not as hurt as when I have been rejected over and over again based on flimsy excuses that eventually become self-evidently false.

If it is never good for you, and there is nothing I can do to make it better for you, tell me. Yes, that likely means we will break up. But that is a GOOD outcome.

Another key to minimizing bad sex is to realize that tolerating bad sex over long periods of time is far worse that splitting up over the fact that the sex is bad.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> See but "going out of your way" sometimes and "compromising" weren't at all what I was talking about. Sexually speaking, I have no problem going way way WAY out of my way...and compromising to the point that I'm probably putting us both in danger ("sure, let's really try the chandalier this time!")
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That:

"it's ok honey, I know you will learn to deal with your horny little body within yourself, you're a big girl" 

just sounds unnecessarily patronising to me. I know he may not have meant it that way and but if that’s the message you got from him, even if not in those exact words, it’s still patronising.

Taking off-will write more later.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > See but "going out of your way" sometimes and "compromising" weren't at all what I was talking about. Sexually speaking, I have no problem going way way WAY out of my way...and compromising to the point that I'm probably putting us both in danger ("sure, let's really try the chandalier this time!")
> ...


He said it in a few different ways at different times, not usually in those words. Those words were when he was just being silly with it. But his point was solid and I would never have wanted him to be any different.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I do think both partners have to consciously make an effort not to weaponize your sex life. It can be tempting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I have never felt tempted to weaponize sex. Nor to "get sex" or "give sex" for any reward. And have never had any partner treat sex as a weapon or a reward. I know it happens, it has just never been my experience so I can't imagine it.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think it is most likely when there is a significant mismatch in sexual desires. If both people want roughly the same amount of the same sort of sex, then neither is really in a position to use it as a bargaining chip. OTOH if one person is much more limited in their desires, it can become something that they trade / bargain with (and that is bad). 





Faithful Wife said:


> I guess I have never felt tempted to weaponize sex. Nor to "get sex" or "give sex" for any reward. And have never had any partner treat sex as a weapon or a reward. I know it happens, it has just never been my experience so I can't imagine it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a very clear eyed differentiation between the cannot and 'will not' scenarios. 




Faithful Wife said:


> See but "going out of your way" sometimes and "compromising" weren't at all what I was talking about. Sexually speaking, I have no problem going way way WAY out of my way...and compromising to the point that I'm probably putting us both in danger ("sure, let's really try the chandalier this time!")
> 
> I was talking about when you do not want to be intimate with your partner because they are undesirable to you at the moment for any of a number of (usually temporary) reasons, and I was only talking about the people who are normally sexual and have reasonable on-going attraction to each other.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Me either on my own behavior. 

M2 is a very good partner in this regard and only very, very rarely behaves badly in this manner. 




Faithful Wife said:


> I guess I have never felt tempted to weaponize sex. Nor to "get sex" or "give sex" for any reward. And have never had any partner treat sex as a weapon or a reward. I know it happens, it has just never been my experience so I can't imagine it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> This is a very clear eyed differentiation between the cannot and 'will not' scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not for me. Cannot means cannot. It doesn't mean "can if I compromise". My body doesn't give a crap about whether the other person thinks I should "compromise" and just "give them sex" even though they've turned me off to the point where my body has shut down. And I'm only talking about that scenario in the above post. Not a scenario where I'm actually able to still have sex because my body is open to it.

If my partner has shut my body down with undesirable actions on their part it means a situation where sex isn't possible at this time. Doesn't mean that it won't change, and it may even change in just a few moments, depending on what the reason was for my body shutting down. 

I guess for me it about the same as a man not being able to get an erection. Sex simply can't happen. I can't "get it up". And I don't mean get it up to have an orgasm. I mean my body simply closes up and intercourse becomes impossible.

There's no "compromise" in impossible. And any partner who would even want me to "compromise" in that situation would immediately become my ex partner. Because....yuck.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> ...*If my partner has shut my body down with undesirable actions *on their part it means a situation where sex isn't possible at this time. Doesn't mean that it won't change, and it may even change in just a few moments, depending on what the reason was for my body shutting down.
> 
> *I guess for me it about the same as a man not being able to get an erection. Sex simply can't happen.* I can't "get it up". And I don't mean get it up to have an orgasm. I mean my body simply closes up and intercourse becomes impossible.
> 
> There's no "compromise" in impossible. And any partner who would even want me to "compromise" in that situation would immediately become my ex partner. Because....yuck.


I understand that if your partner shuts you down and tries to continue with sex, then it would be bad and very wrong.

To me, "sex" is much more than "erection," foreplay with goal of female orgasm and then penis in vagina followed by male orgasm. Sex is playing, arousal, emotional connection and with luck release by whatever method works.

I think that there can be lots of room for compromise, if both partners respect each other and don't force the other to do things they can't emotionally or physically do. That doesn't mean that the compromise is not based on pressure, but it needs to be agreed to by both and should not be one-sided.

Good luck.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I am not willing to have sex if I don't like how M2 is treating me.
> 
> And if we are scuffling - I need one full day of friendly / nice behavior before I will connect.


My husband is like this as well except he uses a 5:1 good to bad interaction ratio. There have to be 5 good interactions to make up for the 1 bad one. I used to feel like this was his way of weaponizing sex. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What I wrote - was a one sentence compliment. 

Perhaps you didn't read it that way. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Not for me. Cannot means cannot. It doesn't mean "can if I compromise". My body doesn't give a crap about whether the other person thinks I should "compromise" and just "give them sex" even though they've turned me off to the point where my body has shut down. And I'm only talking about that scenario in the above post. Not a scenario where I'm actually able to still have sex because my body is open to it.
> 
> If my partner has shut my body down with undesirable actions on their part it means a situation where sex isn't possible at this time. Doesn't mean that it won't change, and it may even change in just a few moments, depending on what the reason was for my body shutting down.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> I understand that if your partner shuts you down and tries to continue with sex, then it would be bad and very wrong.
> 
> To me, "sex" is much more than "erection," foreplay with goal of female orgasm and then penis in vagina followed by male orgasm. Sex is playing, arousal, emotional connection and with luck release by whatever method works.
> 
> ...


Yes sex is more than an erection to me, too. I was just using that example as in, if it is soft, you can't put it into anything. Just won't go in. This is how my body becomes if it has been shut down.  It simply won't allow anything inside of me. 

At the same time, if my body is already in that state, there won't be any playing, arousal or emotional connection either because if my body won't allow sex, it also will not desire any closeness or playfulness. But only AT THAT TIME, again to repeat myself. I'm talking about a very specific scenario....and again that scenario doesn't happen to me except in response to actions (or inaction) by my partner.

So let's say we are in a good place and one of us is desiring sex and the other isn't necessarily. In that case, sure, compromise, play, see if you can get into it anyway, offer other ways to be playful and sexual if you can't get fully into PIV, offer to give pleasure or release, etc. My body isn't shut down in that case, it would simply be not highly aroused at the gate and may not get there at all, but in that case I have no problem doing what you call "compromise" (which for me still isn't technically a compromise, because I like having sex even if my body isn't all that aroused to start with and I actually always get into it in a short amount of time, so it is still quite enjoyable for me, there's no down side or "compromise" to it).

For me there is a world of difference between "not highly aroused to start with" and "body has shut down". There is still the possibility for sex in the first case, but not in the second.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> What I wrote - was a one sentence compliment.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't read it that way.


No - I guess not. Though I did not read it as a jab, either. I just thought you were saying there was still a possibility for compromise in the situation I described, but for me, there isn't.

Perhaps you could expand on your point, I apparently didn't catch it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> I do think both partners have to consciously make an effort not to weaponize your sex life. It can be tempting.


The allure is simply too much to ignore.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think there is some question of terminology. If by "sex" people mean "intercourse" then both of their bodies have to be cooperating for it to work and not be uncomfortable / painful for the woman. 

If "sex" includes using hands, mouth, toys etc, then it is possible to provide your partner pleasure without being physically aroused yourself. Whether or not you feel emotionally like doing that is a different question. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Yes sex is more than an erection to me, too. I was just using that example as in, if it is soft, you can't put it into anything. Just won't go in. This is how my body becomes if it has been shut down. It simply won't allow anything inside of me.
> 
> At the same time, if my body is already in that state, there won't be any playing, arousal or emotional connection either because if my body won't allow sex, it also will not desire any closeness or playfulness. But only AT THAT TIME, again to repeat myself. I'm talking about a very specific scenario....and again that scenario doesn't happen to me except in response to actions (or inaction) by my partner.
> 
> So let's say we are in a good place and one of us is desiring sex and the other isn't necessarily. In that case, sure, compromise, play, see if you can get into it anyway, offer other ways to be playful and sexual if you can't get fully into PIV, offer to give pleasure or release, etc. My body isn't shut down in that case, it would simply be not highly aroused at the gate and may not get there at all, but in that case I have no problem doing what you call "compromise" (which for me still isn't technically a compromise, because I like having sex even if my body isn't all that aroused to start with and I actually always get into it in a short amount of time, so it is still quite enjoyable for me, there's no down side or "compromise" to it).


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think there is some question of terminology. If by "sex" people mean "intercourse" then both of their bodies have to be cooperating for it to work and not be uncomfortable / painful for the woman.
> 
> If "sex" includes using hands, mouth, toys etc, then it is possible to provide your partner pleasure without being physically aroused yourself. *Whether or not you feel emotionally like doing that is a different question*.


It is not a different question to me. If my body has shut down and won't allow intercourse, it is not going to allow or want any of the other stuff, either. You are making it sound like I have any choice, but I do not have any choice in the matter if my body has been shut down by outside factors. Though I'm only speaking for myself here, and am not saying everyone's body shuts down the way mine does. 

In the case of lagging arousal or desire *absent any outside issues that have shut my body down*, then yes I'm open to any and all of the rest.

Again...not speaking for anyone else here, and I know you weren't only addressing me. Just sharing my experience.
@uhtred....have you ever been so emotionally hurt by someone that you literally couldn't get it up for them in that moment? Have you ever had someone try to get you to "give them" sex in that state anyway?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The answer is almost no. I can only think of 3 occasions in my life when someone wanted sex and I didn't. On two of them I just gave my wife oral anyway to get her off because the feelings were not here fault, it was due other issues. The one time I was unhappy with her I did turn her down. That was a case where her sexual selfishness had gotten so bad that I wanted her to at least once in her life have the experience of not getting exactly what she wanted in bed when she wanted it. 

The only way my wife has ever emotionally hurt me was by withholding sex - which is why despite our sex issues, I am still married to her. 

I my post I was trying to separate physical inability from emotional inability, not because emotional inability isn't real, I just consider it different. 









Faithful Wife said:


> It is not a different question to me. If my body has shut down and won't allow intercourse, it is not going to allow or want any of the other stuff, either. You are making it sound like I have any choice, but I do not have any choice in the matter if my body has been shut down by outside factors. Though I'm only speaking for myself here, and am not saying everyone's body shuts down the way mine does.
> 
> In the case of lagging arousal or desire *absent any outside issues that have shut my body down*, then yes I'm open to any and all of the rest.
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not for me. Cannot means cannot. It doesn't mean "can if I compromise". My body doesn't give a crap about whether the other person thinks I should "compromise" and just "give them sex" even though they've turned me off to the point where my body has shut down. And I'm only talking about that scenario in the above post. Not a scenario where I'm actually able to still have sex because my body is open to it.
> 
> If my partner has shut my body down with undesirable actions on their part it means a situation where sex isn't possible at this time. Doesn't mean that it won't change, and it may even change in just a few moments, depending on what the reason was for my body shutting down.


Don't blame everything on the body :wink2:
The thing about humans generally is that we also have a mind which can, if one wished to, have surprising persuasive powers on the body. I don't buy the whole 'my body is shutting down because it is unhappy with your actions'. I mean sure, that's a symptom. But get to the root problem, sort out the cause or reason for the undesirable behaviour and don't let the body be all sulky!





Faithful Wife said:


> I guess for me it about the same as a man not being able to get an erection. Sex simply can't happen. I can't "get it up". And I don't mean get it up to have an orgasm. I mean my body simply closes up and intercourse becomes impossible.
> 
> There's no "compromise" in impossible. And any partner who would even want me to "compromise" in that situation would immediately become my ex partner. Because....yuck.


No way. I realise you are possibly talking through your ex husband's lens, but if there was any indication that my wife was horny next to me and for whatever reason I couldn't get it up, unless I bit off my tongue as well as broke all my fingers (and toes & elbows, whatever works, come to that), I would still try to poke her with a stick or a shoehorn and not let her remain in that state! And I would especially not follow it up with 'silly' comments that may actually damage her self-esteem for good.
Actually it did happen once or twice that after we both had orgasms and I was about to fall asleep I discovered (by chance) she was still...how shall I say...fluid. I didn't waste another second. (Even though I don't immediately feel like doing anything sexy just after orgasm. Definitely no 'yuck' there.) She tried to stop me (because she was being polite I dunno), but no way.

I realise I may have this strong reaction because I am HD and have strong compassion in that department if I know she's still wanting more. I guess if I was LD, I would not relate as well to that need and as a result would perhaps have acted differently. 

My wife is LD and she has learnt to be more compassionate about my needs & frequencies and tastes etc.
Body or no body...it's a lousy excuse to not bother*

*Disclaimer: yes, sometimes it is valid. No reason to have sex with someone who repeatedly acts like a total pig. But that realisation is not down to the body.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> I had a whole long food analogy, but I stopped myself.
> 
> It's not a reward mechanism. My husband's desire isn't affected as much by "stuff." Mine is. This is reality as it stands right now. What seems to be recommended here is for me, the stuffy person to be grateful that my husband loves me and desires me and that I should take one for the team even if that mostly means my sex life is on the mediocre side due to only having an orgasm every once in awhile while he gets his every time because this is how he ~expresses his emotions.~
> 
> ...


Food analogies aside, it would help if I could understand what those conditions might be in order to say anything meaningful.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Don't blame everything on the body :wink2:
> The thing about humans generally is that we also have a mind which can, if one wished to, have surprising persuasive powers on the body. I don't buy the whole 'my body is shutting down because it is unhappy with your actions'. I mean sure, that's a symptom. *But get to the root problem, sort out the cause or reason for the undesirable behaviour and don't let the body be all sulky!*
> 
> 
> No way. I realise you are possibly talking through your ex husband's lens, but if there was any indication that my wife was horny next to me and for whatever reason I couldn't get it up, unless I bit off my tongue as well as broke all my fingers (and toes & elbows, whatever works, come to that), *I would still try to poke her with a stick or a shoehorn and not let her remain in that state! And I would especially not follow it up with 'silly' comments that may actually damage her self-esteem for good*.


To the first bolded....yes in my case, whatever occurred that shut my body down will have to be sorted out, and I never wasted any time in trying to sort it out if at all possible...because in all of my relationships, I am the one who wants sex more often than they do so I was always highly motivated to sort it out. But as for the body being "sulky", that's just trying to minimize my very real and valid body responses. It is not sulking, it is responding. The same was true for my ex-h with his body shutting down if I was a jerk to him, and never once did I consider his body to be "sulky". I considered him to be very connected to his sexuality and not willing to have unwanted sex. 

My mind can easily persuade my body when my body is not shut down. When it is shut down, I would never even attempt to change that fact, other than by trying to address whatever shut it down.

To the second bolded...I did explain that when *I* was horny and he wasn't, what I really wanted was PIV sex, not the other stuff. There were times when I would accept the other stuff, but mostly I would just wait until he was ready and wanting PIV sex, as that is what I truly wanted most. My ex-h was happy to provide the other stuff if I wanted it. He was also open to me trying to seduce him and change his mind. I did sometimes, but found it was actually better to just wait. Because the kind of sex I want requires a lot of lust and energy on his part, so to seduce him into the mood typically didn't get him to that place (though it was still great when it happened). If his body was shut down because we were "off" emotionally, I did not even attempt to try as that is entirely different.

Again just speaking for myself...I am constantly horny, day in and out, day after day, year after year. So there was nothing special about the situation of me being horny. There was really never any time when I wasn't. My husband could have never mitigated my constant horniness no matter how he may have tried (and neither has any other partner). I'm horny again the moment I'm done with afterglow. So being the bottomless pit of horniness that I am, I have grown to understand that this most definitely is something I need to be able to handle within myself and not try to expect any partner to take away my frustration...because frustration is something I will and always have had to live with. It isn't that they are so hot or sexy that makes me so horny, I just am horny, period. My being frustrated is not "their fault". It is just how I am.

I have learned to separate for myself when I feel just horny because I always do, and when I am desiring sex with my partner specifically because they are so sexy or because I feel close and loving or because I want to have intimacy (or all of these at once usually). It feels different, it comes from a different place within myself. Horny is non-specific, the other is 100% specific. Though when things are going well in a relationship, the specific desire for them will be almost as constant as the non-specific state of horniness.

It is only those emotional pitfalls that shut my body down to a partner. The rest of the time I'm usually the one having to slow myself down and wait for my partner to be ready to take me on. But even so, we end up having very frequent and amazing sex, so I have no complaints. I used to wish my body wasn't so naturally horny all the time, but now I'm just used to it and love myself as I am.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Look - are people able to decide for themselves if they want to have sex, or are they not? Or are people supposed to just "put out" for their partner regardless of whether they desire sex or their partner at any given moment?
> 
> Are we autonomous in this decision or not? Are we able to have our own decision about our own bodies (male or female), or not? It really is that simple, and you can't have it both ways.
> 
> ...


Lets stay on track shall we? I was just responding to this bit from FrenchFry's post in my post when I mentioned recourse:

"Or my husband is horny but has forgotten a whole bunch of **** that needs to be done that now I have to do."

It may be totally justified or totally not but it still sounded a little 'recoursy' to me (whether subconscious or not) since him doing or not doing something tends to result in bad/no sex.



Faithful Wife said:


> How in the world is this not simple and obvious? If you take your own situation (any specific person) out of the equation and just ask yourself the question: are we able to decide to not have sex we do not want, or are we supposed to have undesired sex that makes us feel horrible? it seems pretty obvious. Why would someone want to connect with you sexually if they don't desire you at all in that moment? Why would you even WANT them to?


I wouldn't. It's not about that. I would want to find out why they don't want to connect at the very least and then take it or leave it from there.






Faithful Wife said:


> Talk about selfish. "You should just put out anyway whether you desire the sex or me or not and regardless of how I have treated you lately". Again...then come the complaints about starfishing.
> 
> In my marriage, I was usually the one who could/would have had sex in almost any circumstance, and being upset at each other earlier wouldn't necessarily have made me not want sex. But my ex-h was not like that. If we were not in a good groove emotionally for any reason, he didn't want to have sex. This was not to punish me, it was not recourse, it was simply the way his body worked. Feeling disconnected = no sex until connected again. I would not have wanted him to "just put out anyway" in those circumstances, even though I still would have desired him and sex. It didn't matter, because if HE didn't also desire the sex, it would not be good sex. And anyway...ew. Who would want icky disconnected sex out of obligation only?
> 
> ...


I don't think I was advocating this?



Faithful Wife said:


> then it will be no wonder why your partner feels violated and will eventually just starfish you or ultimately, leave.
> 
> THAT is how horrible bad sex is. It will kill the entire sex life and possibly the relationship.
> 
> What do you want? Sex with someone who actually desires you, or sex with someone who feels obligated to "put out"?


I think you have very valid arguments and there's not much disagreement there from me. I was just trying to understand @FrenchFry's situation a bit better. It's difficult to get a picture from small bits and pieces.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

FW, for me it is all about the mind/body connection.

Like I said earlier in the thread, no one is here to "make" me happy but if they want to be here with me they have an obligation to not make me unhappy (yes the body shuts down if the mind is blocking some ****ty behaviour on his part). 

I do not need anyone to make me happy or horny, it is my natural state of being. However if they bring unhappiness to me then the happy/horny connection to sex gets shut down and therefore the body does too.

Men often say here that women need an emotional connection to have sex, this is not true for me personally in fact it is the flipside of this, bring me unhappiness and my natural state of HD shuts down my mind/body. It is like an anti emotional connection.

I hope this makes some sense.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I wouldn't. It's not about that. I would want to find out why they don't want to connect at the very least and then take it or leave it from there.


Anytime my body has shut down, I made it perfectly clear "why".


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> ....This is how my body becomes if it has been shut down. It *simply won't allow anything inside of me*.
> 
> At the same time, if my body is already in that state, there won't be any playing, arousal or emotional connection either because if my body won't allow sex, it also will not desire any closeness or playfulness. But only AT THAT TIME, again to repeat myself. I'm talking about a very specific scenario....and again that scenario doesn't happen to me except in response to actions (or inaction) by my partner.
> 
> ...


I think I understand. 

You might want to sometime talk to your OBGYN about a prescription for a range in size of medical vaginal dilators? It might provide you some additional options, but only if you want options. If you don't then never mind.

Good luck.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> I think I understand.
> 
> You might want to sometime talk to your OBGYN about a prescription for a range in size of medical vaginal dilators? It might provide you some additional options, but only if you want options. If you don't then never mind.
> 
> Good luck.


Mmmmm....no....the suggestion of dialtors would show that you don't understand what I've been meaning. But that's alright. You were just being helpful.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Mmmmm....no....the suggestion of dialtors would show that you don't understand what I've been meaning. But that's alright. You were just being helpful.


I will have a go....

this is nothing to do with a medical shutting down of the body

if my partner is behaving in a crappy way or bringing unhappiness to me my mind AND my body want to shut him out, quite literally.

Tis the opposite of warming a woman up, foreplay, getting aroused which opens up a womans mind and body.

Men take the qudos of opening their woman "up" they also need to take the responsibility if their actions/inactions or whatever shut her down.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> To the first bolded....yes in my case, whatever occurred that shut my body down will have to be sorted out, and I never wasted any time in trying to sort it out if at all possible...because in all of my relationships, I am the one who wants sex more often than they do so I was always highly motivated to sort it out. But as for the body being "sulky", that's just trying to minimize my very real and valid body responses.


That was not my intention. My point was that even HDs can have control over their body! (to some extent) Mind over matter etc



Faithful Wife said:


> It is not sulking, it is responding. The same was true for my ex-h with his body shutting down if I was a jerk to him, and never once did I consider his body to be "sulky". I considered him to be very connected to his sexuality and not willing to have unwanted sex.
> 
> My mind can easily persuade my body when my body is not shut down. When it is shut down, I would never even attempt to change that fact, other than by trying to address whatever shut it down.


'Addressing the issue' is precisely another way to say the same thing what I wrote with regards to using mind and judgement.



Faithful Wife said:


> To the second bolded...I did explain that when *I* was horny and he wasn't, what I really wanted was PIV sex, not the other stuff.


I understand that but sometimes we can't be too picky  And my point was more about the effort. What hurts is not the action (or lack of it) but the lack of effort that can come across as uncaring. One should get some marks at least for the effort! Isn't it what they say?
And dismissing you with that comment (or whatever you ex said) is the definition of minimizing someone's bodily response, if you don't mind me saying. Not sure how you don't see it. (Perhaps you do, but your body won't let you  I am joking. I admire the way you took those comments in any case. I don't think I could have been as receptive).




Faithful Wife said:


> There were times when I would accept the other stuff, but mostly I would just wait until he was ready and wanting PIV sex, as that is what I truly wanted most. My ex-h was happy to provide the other stuff if I wanted it. He was also open to me trying to seduce him and change his mind. I did sometimes, but found it was actually better to just wait. Because the kind of sex I want requires a lot of lust and energy on his part, so to seduce him into the mood typically didn't get him to that place (though it was still great when it happened). If his body was shut down because we were "off" emotionally, I did not even attempt to try as that is entirely different.
> 
> Again just speaking for myself...I am constantly horny, day in and out, day after day, year after year. So there was nothing special about the situation of me being horny. There was really never any time when I wasn't. My husband could have never mitigated my constant horniness no matter how he may have tried (and neither has any other partner). I'm horny again the moment I'm done with afterglow. So being the bottomless pit of horniness that I am, I have grown to understand that this most definitely is something I need to be able to handle within myself and not try to expect any partner to take away my frustration...because frustration is something I will and always have had to live with. It isn't that they are so hot or sexy that makes me so horny, I just am horny, period. My being frustrated is not "their fault". It is just how I am.


Sounds all very familiar...But of course, I would never suggest otherwise. We are now back to frequencies and probably an area where we disagree: I do believe in some kinds of norms in terms of frequency within a marriage/relationship. If I was causing my partner's body to go on being 'shut down' for weeks or months or years, I would probably find it unbearable and not acceptable (provided we are all healthy). The reason 'my body just doesn't want it or feel like it' wouldn't cut it for me. If, on the other hand, my wife was not willing to jump back to PIV 20 minutes later on my requests, I would tell my body to stop acting like a cat on heat. I mean we do have some ideas about norms and aesthetics etc? Surely not everything is acceptable according to what 'the body' wants? I think you have a very interesting and different perspective in this area but I just cannot see how to map it onto real life successfully.



Faithful Wife said:


> I have learned to separate for myself when I feel just horny because I always do, and when I am desiring sex with my partner specifically because they are so sexy or because I feel close and loving or because I want to have intimacy (or all of these at once usually). It feels different, it comes from a different place within myself. Horny is non-specific, the other is 100% specific. Though when things are going well in a relationship, the specific desire for them will be almost as constant as the non-specific state of horniness.
> 
> It is only those emotional pitfalls that shut my body down to a partner. The rest of the time I'm usually the one having to slow myself down and wait for my partner to be ready to take me on. But even so, we end up having very frequent and amazing sex, so I have no complaints. I used to wish my body wasn't so naturally horny all the time, but now I'm just used to it and love myself as I am.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Oh and the reverse is true in our house too. MrH has told me he is not interested in sex with me if we are in one of our "episodes". This is a VHD man that can have sex twice a day in his mid 50's. His mind/penis connection is real.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> I think I understand.
> 
> You might want to sometime talk to your OBGYN about a prescription for a range in size of medical vaginal dilators? It might provide you some additional options, but only if you want options. If you don't then never mind.
> 
> Good luck.


Dear Lord. What's a 'vaginal dilator'? And how does one become one?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Oh and the reverse is true in our house too. MrH has told me he is not interested in sex with me if we are in one of our "episodes". This is a VHD man that can have sex twice a day in his mid 50's. His mind/penis connection is real.


Or he could be playing hard to get? :wink2: A technique that probably works wonders when both partners are U(ltra)HD!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I understand that but sometimes we can't be too picky  And my point was more about the effort. *What hurts is not the action (or lack of it) but the lack of effort that can come across as uncaring. One should get some marks at least for the effort! Isn't it what they say?*
> And dismissing you with that comment (or whatever you ex said) is the definition of minimizing someone's bodily response, if you don't mind me saying. Not sure how you don't see it. (Perhaps you do, but your body won't let you  I am joking. I admire the way you took those comments in any case. I don't think I could have been as receptive).


So one more time...and this is only me.....when I was horny and he wasn't, he would offer me things other than PIV and would also be open to me trying to seduce him and change his mind.

But what I *wanted* was the type of PIV sex that can only happen when the man is raging and horny himself and wants to F my brains out, of his own desire (or even random horniness), from within his own body. That's the type of energy it takes to get the type of sex I want. I learned that by waiting for him to authentically be in that state on his own, I would get the type of sex I wanted. 

Sometimes I took him up on the other offers but quickly learned that wasn't going to satisfy me anyway since that's not what I was wanting.

As for being offended by his comments....because I've been this way my whole life, I've heard so many comments about my sex drive over the years, from every partner I've ever had. Nothing offends me. I just understand I am higher D than most people, including most men, and my standards for great sex are very high, too. Most of my partners have just had to get to know me a bit and understand me. Most are shocked at my drive, once they really understand it. With my ex-h in particular, he loved the way I am. He never asked me to change. He simply did not have the drive I had and therefore it was not reasonable for me to expect him to have sex as often as I would have wanted to....this has been true with every other partner I've had, too, so it was no big surprise. He was not mocking me, ever. He did have empathy for my "plight", too. But that empathy did not cause some kind of miracle reaction in him that made him want to have sex as often as I do, so that's where the pats on the head and the "sorry you're such a horny little bunny" came in. It was sweet that he had empathy at all, actually, and didn't just find me annoying (the way that I have read about other posters who have been mocked for their HD by their partner and were annoyed by their constant horniness). He really did understand I was experiencing a frustration that was uncomfortable and he never tried to make me feel bad about myself or my drive, he was just forthright and honest about his own drive.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Or he could be playing hard to get? :wink2: A technique that probably works wonders when both partners are U(ltra)HD!


lol no this is not how he operates. This man is very honest about his sexuality and he is not a game player, never seen any evidence of this.

It was a massive hit to the ego when he told me this but I have to take it on the chin and I understand because it is exactly how I feel.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> I will have a go....
> 
> this is nothing to do with a medical shutting down of the body
> 
> ...


Completely agree. But then there are sometimes cases where the woman will be using husband's behaviour as an excuse to explain to herself why she might have absolutely no desire to have sex with him and as a result deprive the relationship of sex for extended periods.
I am not saying any of these women post here but I have heard rumours...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Or he could be playing hard to get? :wink2: A technique that probably works wonders when both partners are U(ltra)HD!


Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true for us? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you? :scratchhead:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Completely agree. *But then there are sometimes cases where the woman will be using husband's behaviour as an excuse to explain to herself why she might have absolutely no desire to have sex with him and as a result deprive the relationship of sex for extended periods.*
> I am not saying any of these women post here but I have heard rumours...


But that's not in MrsH's experience so....why can't you just accept what she was saying about herself without trying to figure out "other women" who she has no relevance to? Her experience literally has nothing to do with those other women.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> So one more time...and this is only me.....when I was horny and he wasn't, he would offer me things other than PIV and would also be open to me trying to seduce him and change his mind.
> 
> But what I *wanted* was the type of PIV sex that can only happen when the man is raging and horny himself and wants to F my brains out, of his own desire (or even random horniness), from within his own body.


Fair enough


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Completely agree. But then there are sometimes cases where the woman will be using husband's behaviour as an excuse to explain to herself why she might have absolutely no desire to have sex with him and as a result deprive the relationship of sex for extended periods.
> I am not saying any of these women post here but I have heard rumours...


We do not engage in extending the bad times, we tend to use an "episode" to learn, grow and refine communication, both of us are bad at understanding the others POV at times.

So given that, I can imagine that couples that do not resolve problems do end up in a situation where the lack of desire just keeps growing exponentially because the initial issue was not resolved. Sometimes one partner may think the issues is resolved but if the lack of sex continues they need to take on board that perhaps the problem has not been resolved for their partner.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true for us? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you? :scratchhead:


Haha, no. That was just a tease. And I think it was taken the right way.

But since you are asking...Life situations are all about the person who is observing them, entirely in the eye of the beholder. Every problem that crops up here is presented from *one* perspective and one perspective only. Sometimes a different perspective may be refreshing even if it is completely wrong. Not sure why you mistake it for mistrust or that it means that I would automatically expect everyone to be more like me!
You are funny. 

And sorry if you find it annoying. Next time I will try to speak my mind from somebody else's perspective


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> But that's not in MrsH's experience so....why can't you just accept what she was saying about herself without trying to figure out "other women" who she has no relevance to? Her experience literally has nothing to do with those other women.


Not sure why i am getting singled out here but...if I am not mistaken MrsH was talking *in general terms* when she wrote this, was she not?

"Tis the opposite of warming a woman up, foreplay, getting aroused which opens up a womans mind and body.

Men take the qudos of opening their woman "up" they also need to take the responsibility if their actions/inactions or whatever shut her down."

So...hence my *general* response back. 

I am happy to engage in a conversation but might find it a tad difficult if I not only have to respond to others but also have to respond to critiques of how to respond to others.

Lets peace out!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But since you are asking...Life situations are all about the person who is observing them, entirely in the eye of the beholder. Every problem that crops up here is presented from *one* perspective and one perspective only. Sometimes a different perspective may be refreshing even if it is completely wrong. Not sure why you mistake it for mistrust or that it means that I would automatically expect everyone to be more like me!
> You are funny.


When I am sharing about my own experience, I am never claiming to know anything about people who are nothing like me.

So when I share something that is about just myself, it may or may not be helpful to anyone else (or may just be entertaining, or may be totally irrelevant, they may ignore me, etc). I have no intention when just sharing about myself to try to also figure out why a woman or man who is nothing like me may do something or not do something. When I have something in common and share it (like after French Fry's post, the common part being the shut down of the body), I'm still only dealing in that one topic and not trying to apply it to people who are not like me. But the person, such as French Fry in this case, may feel the same and they may say so. This still doesn't imply that there was anything relevant to others who are nothing like us in any of my posts.

Therefore, when I post about myself and then you respond with questioning how or why other people who aren't like me might do this or that....I just don't understand what you are meaning or where you are going. I was only sharing about myself, not speculating about other people's intentions or actions.

In cases where I am giving direct advice and not just speaking generally about myself to share experience, I usually only dive in when I feel I may have relevant advice because I feel some similar things to the person posting (or feel similar to what their partner might feel).

You come across as not really wanting to read other's experiences (which is fine) but instead you want to extrapolate what was said into many areas that can't be addressed by anyone's limited experience. Again - totally fine for you to want to seek answers, find solutions, discuss lots of various situations, brain storm, etc. But when you do that after quoting one of my posts, I just feel that you didn't read me for what I was saying and just skipped over it to your own agenda. I am confused by this, but not offended or annoyed. I just don't know why you keep taking someone's point and trying to expand it so far beyond what was said and then pick apart what they said and try to apply it to other people who aren't like them.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> When I am sharing about my own experience, I am never claiming to know anything about people who are nothing like me.
> 
> So when I share something that is about just myself, it may or may not be helpful to anyone else (or may just be entertaining, or may be totally irrelevant, they may ignore me, etc). I have no intention when just sharing about myself to try to also figure out why a woman or man who is nothing like me may do something or not do something. When I have something in common and share it (like after French Fry's post, the common part being the shut down of the body), I'm still only dealing in that one topic and not trying to apply it to people who are not like me. But the person, such as French Fry in this case, may feel the same and they may say so. This still doesn't imply that there was anything relevant to others who are nothing like us in any of my posts.
> 
> ...


Aha ok - I think know. I think maybe it's because I am trying to reply to too many different people in a short space of time and things get jumbled up in a thread. Plus the conversation is also sometimes about our general views on things. When I write about my views, I don't *claim* to know what or how other people think, it's just the way I view a certain situation. I know it involves other people but it is still just *my* observations. Nothing more.



Faithful Wife said:


> When I have something in common and share it (like after French Fry's post, the common part being the shut down of the body), I'm still only dealing in that one topic and not trying to apply it to people who are not like me.


The topic may be the same but the situations underneath it could be completely different. How would you know??



Faithful Wife said:


> But the person, such as French Fry in this case, may feel the same and they may say so. This still doesn't imply that there was anything relevant to others who are nothing like us in any of my posts.


Again, FrenchFry may feel the same but her situation may be totally different to yours and people who are nothing like you could in fact be more similar than you might realise?? 

Sorry, I am not trying to be disingenuous and confuse you even more. I am confused myself because from the sentences above you seem to be doing the same thing you are accusing me of?

Are there any particular things I wrote where you felt I skipped over your issue and jumped to my own 'agenda'?

My 'agenda' is my personal point of view. Like you say, people are free to completely ignore it, I am not forcing it onto anyone. But maybe I can do better if you specifically quote me where I went wrong so I can clarify.
Without quotations, you might be rewriting history and it feels a little like you are putting words in my mouth I didn't say or meanings I didn't mean.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true *for us*? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you? :scratchhead:


I totally accept it is true *for you*. Of course it is. How else could it be. But there are other view points on the same situation. When somebody here lays their issues bare is it not natural that it invites commentary/different points of view by default? Is it not why people come here in the first place? To voice their issues and invite commentary? Is that not the point of a discussion? Or are we all supposed to just blend in with the orchestra and all shout 'amen' or only comment on issues concerning people who we think are 'like us'? (What does it even mean 'somebody is like us'. Just because the issues are similar does not mean somebody is anything like us!).
Have I accidentally stepped into some parallel universe where these rules don't apply and an alternative point of view is not welcome anymore?
I happily withdraw. Time for bed anyway.:toast:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true *for us*? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you?
> ...


Yes any post invites commentary. And I mostly enjoy yours. But when you follow up on a post of mine with "what about this, what about that" I simply get confused because I rarely have any insight about those questions and they don't apply to me.

I suppose going forward I just won't respond if I have no insight to questions like that. I will assume you are tossing the questions out there for anyone who does.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Dunno, I spent roughly 18 years with the mistaken impression that my actions had an influence on my wifes desire for sex. If she doesn't think it, it ain't gonna happen. Thinking is in her control not mine.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
I understand what you are describing from reading other people's posts. And I feel very lucky that neither (M2 or I) of us do this. And as the higher drive partner - this is not a friction point for us. 





Lila said:


> My husband is like this as well except he uses a 5:1 good to bad interaction ratio. There have to be 5 good interactions to make up for the 1 bad one. I used to feel like this was his way of weaponizing sex.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Lila,
> I understand what you are describing from reading other people's posts. And I feel very lucky that neither (M2 or I) of us do this. And as the higher drive partner - this is not a friction point for us.


It could be weaponization. Or it could be he's slow to forgive.

I also don't want to have sex with anyone that I don't like. Pissing me off takes me a while to get over. Pissing me off repeatedly takes me a LONG time.

I currently don't want to have sex with my wife. She's made some overtures--dropped some hints...and I just can't really muster for it anymore, physically or emotionally. I'm not out to hurt her. I just really don't feel enough connection with her to give much of a damn about sex.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> It could be weaponization. Or it could be he's slow to forgive.
> 
> I also don't want to have sex with anyone that I don't like. Pissing me off takes me a while to get over. Pissing me off repeatedly takes me a LONG time.
> 
> I currently don't want to have sex with my wife. She's made some overtures--dropped some hints...and I just can't really muster for it anymore, physically or emotionally. I'm not out to hurt her. I just really don't feel enough connection with her to give much of a damn about sex.


Thank you. 

In my real life, most men I know feel like this. But once I get on most any Internet forum, the message from men seems to be (generally) "give me any orgasm I can get, it's all good!" Like they have literally no boundary around their emotional life with regard to their sex life.

But being that I've not experienced most men being that way, I have always assumed most men are actually like the ones I've experienced and known personally and all of my female friends have known. Namely that men (generally) are NOT slavering horn dogs that beg for sex like scraps and will literally eat off the floor. I assume most men will NOT want sex with a woman who treats him badly(over time) because not wanting sex in that situation is a natural response. Wanting to F her anyway would be, IMO, not a natural response. It would be some kind of inhuman response.

If I was in your position I would feel the same. I would no longer want sex with that person and in choosing to stay anyway for other reasons, I would just disengage in general (sexually and romantically) but still fulfill my other marital duties (contribution to income, parenting, faithfulness, etc.)

Though I would not do that forever.

Do you think when your kids have left the nest you may make some changes eventually?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ok

We have what I guess is a type of rule. The rule is - sex is a continuation of everything else. So all the stuff we do together - if that is happening - than sex is ALSO happening. 

Not sure if that was initially my rule our our rule. Either way - it is now a mutual thing. 

It is ok to say: you messed up and are in the dog house. 
Not ok to: act like everything is ok - except for in the bedroom





Fozzy said:


> It could be weaponization. Or it could be he's slow to forgive.
> 
> I also don't want to have sex with anyone that I don't like. Pissing me off takes me a while to get over. Pissing me off repeatedly takes me a LONG time.
> 
> I currently don't want to have sex with my wife. She's made some overtures--dropped some hints...and I just can't really muster for it anymore, physically or emotionally. I'm not out to hurt her. I just really don't feel enough connection with her to give much of a damn about sex.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> It could be weaponization. Or it could be he's slow to forgive.
> 
> I also don't want to have sex with anyone that I don't like. Pissing me off takes me a while to get over. Pissing me off repeatedly takes me a LONG time.
> 
> I currently don't want to have sex with my wife. She's made some overtures--dropped some hints...and I just can't really muster for it anymore, physically or emotionally. I'm not out to hurt her. I just really don't feel enough connection with her to give much of a damn about sex.


Do you ever feel like the intimacy in your relationship is gone?

If your situation is anything like mine, here's an insider of view of what your wife might be thinking......

Like you, my husband holds on to resentment (even though he swears up and down that he has none) for long periods of time. I think that's where the 5 good interactions to overcome 1 bad one originates for him. The counter restarts at 1 each time I do or say something to trigger his resentment. 

I walk on egg shells to avoid any negative interactions. I do not brings up topics where we are in disagreement; conversations are very superficial (think weather topics) or strictly about logistics. I have a very active and wonderful independent life that he knows very little about because frankly, the less interactions, the less probability of a negative one, right?. I have essentially minimized the time I spend with him to only those that I can guarantee will end in a positive. The end result is that we have very little intimacy in the relationship which ironically enough, he says he needs to engage in sex. 

I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. I'm punished for sharing feelings/opinions and I'm punished for keeping them to myself. 

Resentment is a mother ****er.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> Do you ever feel like the intimacy in your relationship is gone?
> 
> If your situation is anything like mine, here's an insider of view of what your wife might be thinking......
> 
> ...


Yep. Intimacy is definitely gone around here. What's different is that I'm done trying to drag her thoughts and feelings out of her. I often feel like I exist as a cardboard cutout prop in her little stage-play. So I don't feel connected enough to want sex. Which is ok with her for the most part anyway.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Yep. Intimacy is definitely gone around here. What's different is that I'm done trying to drag her thoughts and feelings out of her. I often feel like I exist as a cardboard cutout prop in her little stage-play. So I don't feel connected enough to want sex. Which is ok with her for the most part anyway.


I kind of feel like that with my husband. The difference is that I do want to have sex with him but as more time passes with me walking on eggshells (the whole 5:1), the less I want it. Do you think she doesn't share her thoughts and feelings with you because what she has to say may cause you anger and she knows you hold on to anger for a long time?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> I kind of feel like that with my husband. The difference is that I do want to have sex with him but as more time passes with me walking on eggshells (the whole 5:1), the less I want it. Do you think she doesn't share her thoughts and feelings with you because what she has to say may cause you anger and she knows you hold on to anger for a long time?


No, she's not a shrinking violet or anything. I don't know why to be honest. She's always been very opaque to me. She's never been one to really talk about stuff much. I used to try to draw stuff out from her by offering my own thoughts and feelings and then asking her. Normally she'd just look at me and not really have much to say. So I stopped.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> I kind of feel like that with my husband. *The difference is that I do want to have sex with him but as more time passes with me walking on eggshells (the whole 5:1), the less I want it. * Do you think she doesn't share her thoughts and feelings with you because what she has to say may cause you anger and she knows you hold on to anger for a long time?


I think for me, it's not so much of an ongoing ratio of interactions like your 5:1, but more of I just reached a point where I got too tired of trying to make things work. So far, she hasn't really noticed, nor do I much care.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I think for me, it's not so much of an ongoing ratio of interactions like your 5:1, but more of I just reached a point where I got too tired of trying to make things work. So far, she hasn't really noticed, nor do I much care.


Do you think you would you start caring if she started noticing? Or are you too far gone?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> Do you think you would you start caring if she started noticing? Or are you too far gone?


Don't know. Never say never I guess.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes any post invites commentary. And I mostly enjoy yours. But when you follow up on a post of mine with "what about this, what about that" I simply get confused because I rarely have any insight about those questions and they don't apply to me.
> 
> I suppose going forward I just won't respond if I have no insight to questions like that. I will assume you are tossing the questions out there for anyone who does.


No offence, but I didn't think that I directed any questions at you. Can you find the questions directed at you that confused you? I was replying to FrenchFry and MrsH and you interjected *with a question to me*:

"Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true for us? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you?"

As far as I can tell, I only made an observation to do with you regarding your ex husband's comment.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Be very careful with all that stubbornness. From personal experience...there WILL come a time when your wife refuses to compromise any further and it will be up to you to do the compromising. If you wish to keep the relationship then you will have to push through the stubbornness to meet her where she stands.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I was going to reply to this before other stuff got in the way...

Yes I am acutely aware that I have to be very careful and cannot allow to push my stubborness over the edge.
I think my wife is very unusual (at least i have never come across anyone else with this trait) in the sense that most of the time, she will not tolerate if the atmosphere between us is tense for longer periods. She will make a huge amount of effort to try and make up with me, especially when I was hurt but sometimes even when it's not clear whose fault it was. I can imagine with someone else, this state might drag on and on and on and on and eventually become the norm or turn into resentment. Not with her. She will literally jump through the hoops to break this cycle. I am very aware of it and very grateful to her for putting up with my **** like that.

While I cannot hold grudges for very long periods. I may sulk for a day or so (it's usually the tone she might use with me or something superficial: I don't have a lot of patience if she speaks with me in a short-tempered way or when I know she's trying to pick a fight) but as soon as her tone is back to normal, I tend to forget what I was sulking about.

And yes, I have absolutely no problem having sex with her when I am sulky. In fact she knows it's the most effective way to get me out of the sulkiness. Perhaps we haven't had as serious issues as talked about here but with her, I was never capable of turning her down if she comes on to me. When I am pissed off, it might take longer, but eventually I will *always *give in to her. And she wont let go, until I do.
I think i once wrote on here, half-jokingly, that I think I was raped by her...
She had sex with me without my consent. But I was ok about it afterwards!

I imagine it would not go down well on these forums if it was the other way around...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> *No offence, but I didn't think that I directed any questions at you*. Can you find the questions directed at you that confused you? I was replying to FrenchFry and MrsH and you interjected *with a question to me*:
> 
> "Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true for us? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you?"
> 
> As far as I can tell, I only made an observation to do with you regarding your ex husband's comment.


I don't know if they are questions or just musings, but when you quote a post of mine and then post your own reply (including some lines that appear to me to be questions asked of me), then I'm assuming you are directing a question to me or asking me to respond to you.

Posts of yours *on this thread* where you have quoted a post of mine and then written some kind of response to me, including questions, where it appears you want a response back from me:

#269
#270
#305
#359
#375
#378
#384
#395
#398
#399

And there were a couple other posts of yours where you quoted me but they didn't include a question or make me think you were addressing me and wanting a response.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know if they are questions or just musings, but when you quote a post of mine and then post your own reply (including some lines that appear to me to be questions asked of me), then I'm assuming you are directing a question to me or asking me to respond to you.
> 
> Posts of yours *on this thread* where you have quoted a post of mine and then written some kind of response to me, including questions, where it appears you want a response back from me:
> 
> ...


Why don't you just quote the questions??
Fine - I will look back and try to guess. But probably, yes, they were musings. Also don't forget I have lived in Britain half of my life so probably have a weird sense of humour.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Why don't you just quote the questions??
> Fine - I will look back and try to guess. But probably, yes, they were musings. Also don't forget I have lived in Britain half of my life so probably have a weird sense of humour.


IMP, I have no need to make you understand why your posts confuse me. As I said, in the future if you quote me and address me with something that I don't quite understand, I will assume you are making a hypothetical question available for anyone to answer and share their thoughts. I will not assume you expect me to answer directly.

Sorry for the threadjack MEM.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know if they are questions or just musings, but when you quote a post of mine and then post your own reply (including some lines that appear to me to be questions asked of me), then I'm assuming you are directing a question to me or asking me to respond to you.
> 
> Posts of yours *on this thread* where you have quoted a post of mine and then written some kind of response to me, including questions, where it appears you want a response back from me:
> 
> ...


Ok I only found *one* question addressed to you, back in post 269.

"I hope you don't mind me asking but is it possible that your view may be coloured by meeting someone in your life who wasn't willing to make any/many changes you perhaps expected and not coming to terms with it well as a result?"

In other posts, there were bits and thoughts (not directed at you but perhaps you took it this way).

Regarding the question: ok, I will try to be as direct and as un-confusing as I can: I was genuinely curious why is it that you put the idea of couples sticking to their guns and being always 'themselves' throughout the relationship on such a pedestal. While all marriage councillors go through such length emphasizing how important compromises for couples are. In fact depending on how far one is able to compromise, determines the success of a relationship (general observation of mine).

Also when you write this:

"See but "going out of your way" sometimes and "compromising" weren't at all what I was talking about. Sexually speaking, I have no problem going way way WAY out of my way...and *compromising* to the point that I'm probably putting us both in danger ("sure, let's really try the chandalier this time!")"

makes me think that you don't quite understand the meaning of the word 'compromise'. In a compromise, both parties have to make *concessions* in order to reach a compromise. Having sex on a chandelier would *not* be a compromise for someone who likes having sex! *Not* having sex or learning to live with a partner who doesn't have a raging erection every time they see their partner for example perhaps would be one such compromise. Your philosophy is 'to stick to your core', your true self OR find somebody else. And it's totally fine - all I was suggesting is that that's not necessarily a recipe for success for couples who do *want* to make things work even if they are different from each other and have different preferences.
I just don't appreciate being shot down for having an opinion on this and would generally prefer if you would address *what* I say (preferably quoting what it is you are addressing). I think that's the general forum format.

Regarding what you wrote re your ex, you obviously not only accepted it but also found a roundabout way to _respect_ him for letting him be 'himself' with you. To me this concept is slightly alien, because any relationship is about some compromise one way or another.
But like I said, i think I understand where you are coming from. Your relationship was probably far more complex and possibly more difficult for you than you let it on from your posts and I don't want to trigger or cause confusion.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> IMP, I have no need to make you understand why your posts confuse me. As I said, in the future if you quote me and address me with something that I don't quite understand, I will assume you are making a hypothetical question available for anyone to answer and share their thoughts. I will not assume you expect me to answer directly.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack MEM.


We have been through this game before: you attack me for expressing an opinion and my views (without quoting me, usually distorting it in the process) when I ask you what specifically caused this response you write that there is no need for you to back up the attack.
That's fine - I will also just assume it's a hypothetical attack...
Peace!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Please let it go and stop the threadjack, IMP.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

Not a thread jack at all. You are making a valid point. 

Individual miscommunications are normal but a pattern is different. 





Faithful Wife said:


> IMP, I have no need to make you understand why your posts confuse me. As I said, in the future if you quote me and address me with something that I don't quite understand, I will assume you are making a hypothetical question available for anyone to answer and share their thoughts. I will not assume you expect me to answer directly.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack MEM.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Food analogies aside, it would help if I could understand what those conditions might be in order to say anything meaningful.



You don't have to say anything meaningful.  This is something that has been hashed out between him and I and I don't feel like it's something that really needs to be delved into.

What it comes down to though is that he knows and understands where I'm coming from and makes great effort to listen, be in tune and understand that if something happens--so be it. As we are imperfect people it happens sometimes. I'm very clear xyz will shut me down. Some people find that clarity stifling, for us it's liberating.


I'm sorry to give small bits and pieces. I do so because a) a lot of the time the information gets weaponized b)it's personal and I feel like only a few people really understand. For example, I've said something to my husband similar to what he said to @faithfulwife. This is part of the dynamic we have that is successful and yet if I share that as the one who said that comment--I get lambasted and then I go to my husband and we have an awkward conversation about something that wasn't really broken.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> For example, I've said something to my husband similar to what he said to faithfulwife.


You mean the 'you can deal with your horny little body yourself' type comment? Oh I think it is much more humiliating when the guy says something like this to the woman. I am not sure why it should be, but in my view, it is.



FrenchFry said:


> I'm sorry to give small bits and pieces. I do so because a) a lot of the time the information gets weaponized b)it's personal and I feel like only a few people really understand.


I understand. Although one is much more likely to 'weaponize' a situation from small bits and pieces because one may not be able to connect the correct dots. I was asking for my own benefit - understanding opposite perspectives better to help me understand myself.
I thought I came here to understand my wife better. But the more I read, the more convinced I become that I need to understand myself better because if we do have problems, I am pretty sure the majority of the times it's because *I* am the problem.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,

Context is such a powerful thing. 

If you are with someone who clearly loves and desires you - and they are saying something that is entirely true, I would expect the type of good outcome that FW described. 

And I am not speaking as a mod here - but rather - as a fellow poster. The way your post below is writtten makes me wonder if 1. you have a blind spot where other folks are concerned or 
2. you are being intentionally antagonistic to FW






inmyprime said:


> You mean the 'you can deal with your horny little body yourself' type comment? Oh I think it is much more humiliating when the guy says something like this to the woman. I am not sure why it should be, but in my view, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I'm sorry to give small bits and pieces. I do so because a) a lot of the time the information gets weaponized b)it's personal and I feel like only a few people really understand. For example, I've said something to my husband similar to what he said to @faithfulwife. This is part of the dynamic we have that is successful and yet if I share that as the one who said that comment--I get lambasted and then I go to my husband and we have an awkward conversation about something that wasn't really broken.


I remember those posts, where you were explaining exactly what my husband had said to me, from your perspective. 

The dynamic was successful between my ex-h and I too - - not sure if for the same reasons as your dynamic works. For us, it was because I was already used to this being the response to me from other people in my life (the "wow - you're so dang horny....how the hell are you going to deal with all of that because obviously, I cannot even start and don't want to because I'm just not built that way"). I accepted that most people don't experience what I'm experiencing and I don't experience what they do either...but in most other ways, I'm very common and relate to the majority of people. Since there were more people unlike me than like me in my experience (sexually speaking), I tried to get to know and understand those who weren't like me as much as possible. So that's how I ended up reading all sorts of stuff and talking to so many people of all different ranges of D....HD, LD, ND, medium D, Asexual, pan sexual, sex addiction, sapio sexual, demi sexual, sexual orientations and experiences of the range of these, kinky people and how they experience this stuff (and finding that within kinky people, there are still HD, LD, ND, etc. types of experiences), porn lovers, porn haters, swingers....I wanted to learn about everyone.

In that process I learned a lot about myself, too. I learned that there are others like me (there are some on this board who are coupled up nicely with spouses who are similar to them....looking at you @MrsHolland and @Personal and @samyeager .... people who are currently and have for a long time been having daily or more sex with the same partner - and great sex, too....I personally have never partnered with someone who could go daily or more for longer than a week or two...but have been happy to find good matches otherwise who can at least do that  )

So I accepted this is how I am and my partners most likely will not be quite like me, statistically. And I accepted others are who they are, and started looking at base line sexuality in people as something that is mostly innate (though it can be greatly interupted or changed, for the better or worse, by effort and experience, or lack thereof). As I met and talked to more people, I found that those who were fairly consistent over their lifetime in their desires and kinks and sexuality (or lack thereof), were usually pretty sexually self aware and really knew themselves. These tended to be the people with the best sex lives, by their accounts (which sometimes meant a really great LD-LD match...some LD's are highly sexually self aware).

Then met my H, and he was very self aware and highly sexual when we met. He sized me up immediately and told me before we even got to the point of a committed relationship "hey babe, you are such a sultry sexy girl...and I want you so bad all the time, as you know...but you gotta know, I will never have as much sexual energy as you do. You are just way up there and as high up as I am, the frequency level for you is a whole different world than mine". At that time, we were still having at least daily sex, but he assured me he would not be able to keep that up forever and still honor his own body. He knew beforehand that in a long term relationship, we would not be having sex daily. 

It was a really great conversation. I had had similar conversations before that didn't go so great (mostly when I was less self aware)....so it was a welcome thing for me. He was so forthright and so in touch with his own levels of sexual energy. He also was clearly madly in love with me, wanted me all the time, and admired my sexuality (and loved it). It was not a burden to him.

If I tried to make it his burden, he just reminded me of how his body works and that we are different, and that my body's frustration is not his burden.

Now if I wanted a little help...that was different than making it his burden. He gently made it clear to me when I was tipping into burden territory. And then I'd snap out of it and realize I was kinda being a horny brat. He always forgave me. :laugh:

And then the other way it worked for me was that although he did not have the energy to have sex with me every day, he did ravage me - - multiple times a day. In all kinds of ways. Sometimes deep long swoony kisses while dipping me in the kitchen. Then pulling me over to the counter and groping me everywhere. Sometimes he would sit on the couch and say "come straddle me" and would pull me on top of him - - you know, how you can mash your naughty bits that way :smile2: ) and I'd grind and mash him while he groped my boobs and kissed me. Sometimes he would be passing me through the living room and suddenly grab me by the shoulders, whip me around and whip my shirt and bra off before I even knew what was happening. Then I'd be standing there topless, he'd toss my shirt on the couch and proclaim "There! Much better!" Then he'd walk away and expect me to walk around topless all night. When I would go to try to put my shirt back on he would run and grab it before I could get to it and hold it up too high for me to reach and say "oh no, I went to all that work to strip you, you're not going to ruin it". I'd jump up and down topless and pretend to try to get my shirt from him....but it was only pretend, because I would have needed a step ladder to do it.

He did stuff like this all throughout the day, day after day. This kept my sexuality happy and vibrant. He also loved when I would do my own version of these things to him. Like passing him in the hallway, I'd push him up against the wall and grab his collar and plant a big kiss on him, pressing against him in a mock way of pretending I could ever actually have enough strength to do that. He would pretend I was really that powerful and act like my pressing him against the wall was actually holding him there while I kissed him. Sigh...so fun. Of course that always ended with him throwing off his pretend shackles and rough-housing me around like a rag doll. 

Miss him!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> IMP,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which good outcome are you referring to?
We have to deal with pain to overcome it. Nothing antagonistic about this point of view.

The post of mine you quote was in response to FrenchFry’s comment in any case.

I’m surprised it’s not obvious that it was 3 all along: Defending myself when being attacked (which clearly started in post no. 391 unprovoked, since it was directed at somebody else, in case it wasn’t clear )
rather than retreating in awe whenever slapped on the wrists, as some other male posters seem to be doing.

I believe everyone should expect and deserve at the very least equal & fair treatment here (as you say, without blindspots), based strictly on what they post, not on who they are.

Ps: sorry, I will try this to be my last digression.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am still posting as a fellow citizen - not a mod. 

-----------

IMP,
Summary level: Whether or not it is intentional, you are posting in a way that is dismissive of other people's experience. 

Details: I will address your post below in an entirely linear manner. 

1. Your post to FrenchFry utilized a direct quote by FW. So it was a hybrid. Which is fine. Except - what you did isn't fine. FW has gone out of her way to explain a very personal exchange between her and her husband. In my opinion that type of sharing is what makes this site so valuable. Also IMO - it was a very high functioning exchange. 

It is perfectly fine to make general comments about your own beliefs. And to use YOUR OWN experiences to bolster a view point. It is however mean spirited to take someone else's deeply personal experience - and depict it in a manner that is the absolute opposite of how they described it. 

FW describes it as enlightening. You describe it as humiliating. Don't do that. It is wrong to take someone else's personal experience and describe opposite of how they do. 

2. I carefully read all those posts from 391 forward. Other posters were merely telling you - in a firm but civilized manner - not to be dismissive of other folks experience. Sort of similar to point (1) above. If you wish to identify individual posts where you believe you were being attacked personally - as opposed to folks just disagreeing with you - feel free. 

3. If I am one of the male posters retreating in awe when slapped on wrist - all I can say is - I've disappointed a long line of people - starting with my mother. 






inmyprime said:


> Which good outcome are you referring to?
> We have to deal with pain to overcome it. Nothing antagonistic about this point of view.
> 
> The post of mine you quote was in response to FrenchFry’s comment in any case.
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am still posting as a fellow citizen - not a mod.
> 
> -----------
> 
> ...


See what you did there? You offered *your* take on the story. I offered *mine* when I wrote this:



inmyprime said:


> That:
> 
> "it's ok honey, I know you will learn to deal with your horny little body within yourself, you're a big girl"
> 
> just sounds unnecessarily patronising *to me*.


I never claimed for this view to be the gospel truth, it was an alternative view, it was *my* view. 

The crux is this: are we allowed to offer our interpretations when people tell their stories or are we not? Whether it's the correct interpretation or even a welcomed interpretation is an entirely different conversation. I don't often write what people want to hear in any case - this is not because I am trying to be malicious or 'mean-spirited'. It's because with more variety of views, the poster is actually able to think about an issue from different angles. And I tend to look at things from controversial perspectives anyway. I would expect, in fact I would only welcome exactly the same treatment from others and that's how these forums usually tend to operate. Except in this instance. A chanting canon in the same key is not always a helpful one.
And of course if it is not helpful, the poster is always free to ignore or dismiss it as an irrelevance (which it may well be) or address it or think about it or whatever. The point is, when someone posts a story, people should have the right to respond with their views. *It doesn't automatically mean that the other poster's feelings or experiences become invalidated.* And if I ever gave out the incorrect impression that my view point *has* to be the ultimate version, I apologize. I have a direct style of writing and perhaps it doesn't work in some instances.

However this:


Faithful Wife said:


> Honest question: can you ever just accept that something one of us says is true for us? You seem to feel that any and all situations may be something different than what the poster is saying. She was not asking for advice, she was stating her own experience. *It makes me think that you don't understand that people are different and you assume they should be more like you?* :scratchhead:


This is quite clearly playing the man, not the ball. Perhaps you missed it.



MEM2020 said:


> It is perfectly fine to make general comments about your own beliefs. And to use YOUR OWN experiences to bolster a view point.


And exactly what I did when I wrote that if I said anything like this to my wife, I would quite possibly have damaged her self esteem with this comment. That would have been *my* experience and *my* point of view. My wife's point of view would probably be different still - our view points often diverge on things. We often discuss and argue the crap out of them but we are still married to each other.

I think I have said all I can say about this incident. If it is still not clear, I can only surmise that I have failed articulating myself in a proper manner and will do my best to not let this happen in future.

Now I must go and attempt to 'minimize' that bad sex that I hear people talking about :noel:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The thing is - after FW explained why it really was ok - in the context of her marriage you came back with THIS:


*You mean the 'you can deal with your horny little body yourself' type comment? Oh I think it is much more humiliating when the guy says something like this to the woman. I am not sure why it should be, but in my view, it is.
*

You seem DETERMINED - and yes I find it irritating - why I am resorting to caps - to take someone else's story and depict it in the way you see it as opposed to the way they experienced it. First you call it condescending and then after more explanation from FW you double down with humiliating. 

---------
As to the one paragraph you isolated - fair enough - FW was playing you and not the ball. 

Sadly I seem unable to persuade that - while your conduct isn't a technical violation of the rules of engagement, it sure isn't going to encourage folks like French Fry to share her story. 





inmyprime said:


> See what you did there? You offered *your* take on the story. I offered *mine* when I wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
Your post below shows a remarkable level of self awareness, partner awareness - and acceptance. 

There came a time when you posted - about - continuing the marriage with separate residences. Many folks were critical of that model, I thought it showed a high level of commitment. 

There are no 'do overs' in life. No time machines. I wish there were. 

Because when I read your posts - those leading up to your marriage ending - I thought - I've seen this movie and am keenly aware of the subtext. Thing was - our rapport was strained and you didnt seem to be asking for advice. So I kept my observations to myself. Given a do over I wouldn't do so. Because your issues with F2 and mine with M2 were very similar.  

----------

On a totally separate note: F2 nicely told you that you were gonna have to figure yourself out. M2 tried telling me that a few times. Apparently the message never penetrated. So - finally she reached a breaking point and decided to 'show' me what she had been trying to 'tell' me. Put me on a 3X/day routine for about 3 weeks. This routine had no tone. Wasn't hostile. Wasn't friendly. Purely educational. By the end of three weeks I had a fluent understanding of why it was a bad idea to relentlessly pressure your partner for sex. 





Faithful Wife said:


> So one more time...and this is only me.....when I was horny and he wasn't, he would offer me things other than PIV and would also be open to me trying to seduce him and change his mind.
> 
> But what I *wanted* was the type of PIV sex that can only happen when the man is raging and horny himself and wants to F my brains out, of his own desire (or even random horniness), from within his own body. That's the type of energy it takes to get the type of sex I want. I learned that by waiting for him to authentically be in that state on his own, I would get the type of sex I wanted.
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

The other point - and I know patience runs thin but perhaps a more important one - that suddenly hit me after I wrote all this, is that my actual * initial* gut reaction towards FW and her ex - husband’s remark was actually that of sympathy.
Perhaps it was an unnecessary reaction or a wrong reaction.
But my gut reaction was that it seemed humiliating and I felt sympathy (all I had to do is close my eyes and imagine how my wife would have felt). Perhaps it didn't express itself the right way and I do tend to get defensive too quickly.
It’s only when this was somehow taken out of context, twisted, turned around and thrown back at me (e.g. “you have no clue, people are different, why do you assume everyone is like you, stop being antagonistic” etc etc).
At some point you have to ask yourself: what’s the point of saying anything at all, apart from singing praises all day long.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The thing is - after FW explained why it really was ok - in the context of her marriage you came back with THIS:
> 
> 
> *You mean the 'you can deal with your horny little body yourself' type comment? Oh I think it is much more humiliating when the guy says something like this to the woman. I am not sure why it should be, but in my view, it is.
> ...


That's really not fair MEM. If @FrenchFry prefers not to post the details of her personal life, I very much doubt it is due to some random person's points of view on an anonymous forum. Of course, I wouldn't want to speak on anyone else's behalf...

We are not helpless and fragile spring chickens here. Many of us have been through a lot and many are tougher than we let it on. I realise you have a very soft spot here - I get it. But please try not to get this in the way of your abilities to read my posts in an objective manner, no matter how irritating you may find them.
I have a different approach. I like to look at things from different angles and encourage others to do this in a way that is not akin to pointing fingers and laughing at somebody's situation - I would never do that.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> There are no 'do overs' in life. No time machines. I wish there were.
> 
> Because when I read your posts - those leading up to your marriage ending - I thought - I've seen this movie and am keenly aware of the subtext. Thing was - our rapport was strained and you didnt seem to be asking for advice. So I kept my observations to myself. Given a do over I wouldn't do so. Because your issues with F2 and mine with M2 were very similar.


Oh Mem...that is sweet. Though there really isn't anything anyone could have advised us that would have "saved" our marriage. It was something that needed to end....even though it was devastating to both of us....we are actually happier now (after the grief and a lot of healing).

We are great friends now...I see him quite often and regularly. 

I don't want to speculate...but there's even a chance that someday.....well, I'll just leave it at that.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@MEM2020

This is probably an overlooked aspect to this question in the HD/LD mismatch of things that can result in bad sex. What if the HD spouse knows what the LD spouse needs to make sex very enjoyable, but doing so results in bad sex only for the HD individual. In your opinion should this be avoided as well, or would it be considered selfish for the HD person to avoid this knowing it is one of the rare ways the LD spouse can actually enjoy sex within the marriage?

While such a scenario probably seems very unlikely, I bet it is way more common than many here think and perhaps at the source of many mismatches. 

An example might be an LD spouse that can only enjoy things as long as everything is natural, limited to a simple routine, and with zero pressure/expectations beforehand during a brief moment of spontaneity. Perhaps such an act might be referred to as a "happy-go-lucky starfish." Meanwhile the HD may only enjoy things when there is ample anticipation/foreplay, an elaborate routine, and with the use of some things that may require a little planning ahead of time. Some folks might refer to this as a "session." 

I've actually read stories about some individuals that really enjoy sex, but can not adapt themselves to a spouse that wants things to be very elaborate and time consuming. It is possible for the HD spouse to engage in intimacy that is quick and simple, but afterwards this HD individual feels starved and missing something more physically elaborate and fulfilling. 

How does a couple avoid bad sex in this scenario? 

Badsanta


----------



## Loveless17 (Oct 16, 2017)

I think I can relate. Sex with my husband is awful. We waited until we married for our first time and we were both virgins. 22 years and we our not sexual compatible. No chemistry and we force ourselves to have sex because it's what married couples are suppose to do. 
We get along very well, never argue, but we are bored and we don't have a typical marriage. Once you take vows in front of God, you can't back out. Life is so very difficult.
If she doesn't have chemistry with you, there really isn't much you can do.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Loveless17 said:


> I think I can relate. *Sex with my husband is awful.* We waited until we married for our first time and we were both virgins. 22 years and we our not sexual compatible. No chemistry and we force ourselves to have sex because it's what married couples are suppose to do.
> We get along very well, never argue, but we are bored and we don't have a typical marriage. Once you take vows in front of God, you can't back out. Life is so very difficult.
> *If she doesn't have chemistry with you, there really isn't much you can do.*


 @Loveless17 I think many people would agree with you that when there is a lack of basic chemistry that the situation is rather hopeless. Perhaps some can relate that have had a very good friend and tried to make it into a "friends with benefits" type of situation in which sex turned out to be very awkward and rather uncomfortable for both which then kind of ruined the friendship. 

One common suggestion that I have seen from many people that post here is that they were able to turn things around once they started taking responsibility for their own happiness and pleasure. In a marriage this kind of works like self-gratification, but instead of doing that alone they choose to openly share that moment with their spouse. In turn their spouse builds confidence to begin doing the same, and it culminates into something that both begin to respond to with ample chemistry towards one another. Intimacy that used to be an awkward give and take transforms into an enjoyable moment about sharing.

Don't know if that will help since I do not know the dynamics of your situation, but perhaps it might be something useful to think about and/or discuss with your spouse.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Are you able to discuss this with him? 

I agree that "chemistry" is important, but do you understand what each other likes? Are you each willing to try new things to please the other? I think that even without chemistry, two people who try to make each other happy can enjoy sex together even if it isn't magical. 




Loveless17 said:


> I think I can relate. Sex with my husband is awful. We waited until we married for our first time and we were both virgins. 22 years and we our not sexual compatible. No chemistry and we force ourselves to have sex because it's what married couples are suppose to do.
> We get along very well, never argue, but we are bored and we don't have a typical marriage. Once you take vows in front of God, you can't back out. Life is so very difficult.
> If she doesn't have chemistry with you, there really isn't much you can do.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Loveless17 said:


> I think I can relate. Sex with my husband is awful. We waited until we married for our first time and we were both virgins. 22 years and we our not sexual compatible. No chemistry and we force ourselves to have sex because it's what married couples are suppose to do.



Is this a mutual feeling? As in, if you asked your husband, would he say the same thing about sex being awful and forcing himself to have it?
The reason I ask is that I have often observed that when this feeling is truly mutual, it’s rare that both partners take those vows equally seriously and eventually find an excuse to break them and leave (or force the other partner out).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> OK I am a naive 50 yr old woman but how can a man fake it? I can feel it when he is about to cum as his **** gets bigger. Um there is also physical evidence left behind.
> 
> Lol always learning, never surprised by anything I read here.


Been a while since I posted:

I was in my early 20's and used a condom. I got bored with the sex so I changed my rhythm and made my penis twitch at about the interval of regular ejaculation. I then got off of her and tossed the condom in the garbage so she couldn't see.


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Loveless17 said:


> , but we are bored and we don't have a typical marriage. Once you take vows in front of God, you can't back out. Life is so very difficult.


I know many self-professed Christians who have divorced and now are living happier lives with their 2nd spouse.


----------

