# Advice on my marriage please



## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I'm a first time poster. I've thought about posting here before, but I never know just how to start. Anyhow, here goes...

I've been married to my wife for 15 years. We have two kids and a pretty good life overall. That being said, our marriage has never been easy. We argue a lot. Our communication is terrible, we have sex very rarely (probably less than ten times per year, which is a lot less than I'd like), and we seem to disagree on everything.

I know I'm not perfect. I'm a little bit unorganized and can be a bit messy. I could also do more romantic things like bring home flowers and stuff. But, I really really try to be a good husband and father. I work hard, but always make time for my family. I probably cook and do about 50% of the housework. I'm handy... built the house that we live in. I'm a good provider and I'm very involved with our kids... coach their teams and all that stuff. I'm usually the last one to go to work and the first one home, so I'm there for the kids. My wife and I both love sports, and we usually play them together twice a week. I'm not as fit as I used to be, but I exercise and 4 times a week and am in better shape than most men my age.

Again, I know I've got flaws, but I work on them and overall I think I'm a pretty good catch.

But I don't always feel like I am when I'm with my wife. She can be so negative... I can wake up early, pack the kids lunches, walk my daughter to school, work a full day, come home first and cook dinner, drive my kids to their practice, come home, clean the kitchen and then read to my daughter and put her to bed, and my wife won't say a word about any of it, but she will comment on how I didn't take out the garbage. I don't mind the negative, but sometimes it seems like that's all I get. One exception is on Facebook... she'll say such nice things about me on Facebook, but I don't get any of that in our home.

She can be so angry... I don't do well with yelling. I grew up in an environment where is discussed differences and listened to each other. My wife is a yeller. She talks over people. Sometimes it's impossible to get a word in. It's so frustrating. I try not to get sucked in. I ask her to lower her voice. Slowly my temper rises. Usually I either eventually yell back or walk away. The worst part is my kids could be sitting right there. I hate that they have to listen to her.

Pretty much our whole marriage has been like this. I've told her about my concerns, but nothing seems to change. She is still really negative and angry. 

And recently she started behaving that way towards our 14 year-old son. She yells and nags him so much. Honestly, he is such a good kid. He does so much around the house. He does well in school. He reads, plays piano and sports. Yes, he can be a typical annoying teenager, but he has a great heart.

I usually try to talk to her privately about how she is towards him, but sometimes I just can't take it and I speak up right in front of him. Honestly, it's borderline mentally abusive, and I can't just sit there and watch.

I've told her that I'm afraid that she will lose him. When he was younger she could be such a good mom to him, but as he's gotten older their relationship has really gone downhill. My relationship with him is still good... sure he can be a selfish teenager, but we still do a lot together. And, I will not let her relationship with him dictate my relationship with him. Honestly, if it came down to my wife or my kids, my kids would win, no contest... though I hope it doesn't come down to that.

...

So there is the background. I'm not sure what question I want to ask you insightful people... I know I'm not happy in my marriage, though we have built so many great things together. I know I have some things to work on, but part of me thinks that all the improving in the world isn't going to make things better.

Does my wife need help? I've never known anyone that acts the way she does. Maybe it would help if I described her behavior in more detail?

Already mentioned negative and angry... She is late for things a lot. She can be very insensitive to other people, but is very sensitive when people say things to her. She can be obsessive about cleaning and stuff. She presents an image to other people where everything seems perfect, but behind the scenes is completely different. She doesn't really have close friends.

On the positive side, she works really hard and she goes on stretches where she is a bit more laid back, but there is always a tornado just around the corner.

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. I need to talk to someone, but I don't want to drag anyone close to our family into this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Some good long term marriage counselling may well help.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Therapy. As a couple and maybe for her individually, as well.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Your wife needs boundaries and you need to be able to enforce them. Maybe you can discuss how to do that with an individual counselor?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith. It is a whole lot more than the title suggests. After reading it you may want to give it to your 14 yr old.

As to your wife, I think she is way too concerned about outside appearances. My xw was like that. It is a defense mechanism or compensation for an internal psychological issue. There is something which she feels very badly about internally. Maybe your W's mother berated her all the time, so she feels worthless. Idk what it is with your W, but I think she has a deep self esteem issue which she is trying to keep hidden. My w's case was child sex abuse, which for her (and which is typical) was something she dreaded anybody finding out about. I'm not saying your W has something really terrible like that, just saying that your W seems like she is trying to keep people from seeing something about her. If she feels she is worthless or stupid or ugly or whatever, she'll put up a good front to the outside world. Her screaming and yelling is either a reaction to fear or another wall she is putting up. Maybe she feels she is a bad mother or a bad wife, so she yells to offload the blame onto others.

And I hear you on the negativity! My W learned that from her mother.

So, I think marriage counseling can be helpful to you. There are a lot of great marriage books out there, too. Most of them require both partners to be genuinely making an effort.

I think I would approach your W in a non-accusatory way. Say something like you sense that she is frustrated and unhappy a lot of the time, and so are you. You want to change things so that you two can have a happy marriage and a healthy family. Suggest MC, and/or suggest reading some marriage books together.

The truth is everybody is imperfect, including as a spouse and a parent. Both of you will learn new skills and new attitudes in this process.

I think there is reason for optimism for you, with the caveat that she needs to get on board.

You may benefit from "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover. This is not one I would share with your W! The doc says to bring her in on it, but the large majority of men who do so end up regretting it. You may be a bit of a Nice Guy. More than that, I think you may see some behaviors which you can change even if you aren't a Nice Guy. For example, doing so much around the house. Be sure you are not Caretaking. Be sure you aren't seeking approval from your W as a motivator for doing things. Learn about Covert Contracts, which you may be engaging in.

For you two as a couple, all the regularly mentioned books are good.
5 Love Languages
Getting the Love You Want
the workbook to Getting the Love You Want
Boundaries
His Needs, Her Needs
etc etc


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Are you two having sex often? You didn't mention sex once in everything between you.


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## Mommame2 (Oct 8, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> Are you two having sex often? You didn't mention sex once in everything between you.




He did. Ten times a year. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

tribezulu said:


> Hi everyone,
> ... Our communication is terrible, we have sex very rarely (probably less than ten times per year, which is a lot less than I'd like), and we seem to disagree on everything.
> 
> ...



Combine this with everything else you mention, there is a lot of work to do between the both of you.

As mentioned, getting a professional opinion (therapy) may be helpful to start things off.

Good luck.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Mommame2 said:


> He did. Ten times a year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks.

I have sex 10 times a week. Definitely not worth putting up with a crazy woman that is abusing you and your children.

Stop helping her out. Do things for you and your kids. Get into the best shape of your life. If you're working out 4x a week, you should be in amazing shape. Stop eating and drinking poorly. Time to distant yourself from her misery.

Divorce is in your future. A man can only take so much and it appears you are about there. My ex wife was similar, worst person in the world to be around. I was either going to put her 6ft under or go my own way. Thankfully I choose divorce.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

OP your wife sounds like a bit of a shrew. You sound weak in asserting your position in the home and relationship. It’s been 15 years so it may be too late for you to change yourself to correct her bad behavior.
-First time your wife disrespects you pull her aside, alone, and look her in her eyes and sternly tell her you will not stand for it, she is not to disrespect you ever. This is a relationship which should be built on trust and have good communication, disrespect and negativity should have no place in it. Each time she disrespects you pull her aside and correct her behavior, her disrespect or insults are abusive and you cannot alllow it, ever.
-When she yells handle it the same way, sternly look at her and tell her to stop yelling, tell her to have a calm rational discussion otherwise she should be quiet until she calms down, but there will be no yelling at you or the children. It’s abusive and it shows her lack of control and maturity.
-When she gets after your son in a way you do not approve of, pull her aside and tell her why you feel differently. He’s both of yours, you both have to be on the same page in how to discipline, direct, guide and how to correct your children. Abusive yelling or negativity is not an option and you should not allow it, ever.
-Facebook, she’s immature and has proven that to you, she wants to show up her friends and make herself appear flawless. Just ignore it, she is just playing her immature game of showing off for her friends.
-Sex, seriously man if she had respect for you she would have adoration for you, and if you asserted yourself in all the other ways you would likely be able to assert your sexuality within your sex life with your wife. If you assume the strong but loving husband role she may fall into taking your lead and she might be willing and desire to please you. This is on you. She controls the sex, you have given her that power. Sounds like she controls everything. 
-Chores, it’s great that you do so much in house but do not expect any recognition or reward for it, ever. It’s just your responsibility, like brushing your teeth or filling up your gas tank, no one gives you a pat on the back and certainly not sex for doing what you’re supposed to do. You own a home and have kids, you’ve got responsibilities. Just tell her what you need for her to do, let her know what needs to get done and how you expect the Home and Kids to be taken care of. When she nags you about anything stop her, correct her behavior. If she says “you didn’t take out the garbage!!!” Just reply with “I must have forgot, take care of that for us will you?” It’s not your job or her job it’s both of your job, it has to get done and the garbage belongs to the family so who cares who carries it out as long as it happens. Also, it’s not a manly strong image to send the wife or Kids when you are doing most all of the chores. They need to see you doing traditionally manly things. Think about the example of a man you are giving your children. Do you want for your son to be like you? Be the man you want for him to be, portray that image and character to him.
-Do not allow for her to guilt and shame you, do not allow her to disrespect you or your children, do not allow her to be negative or abusive toward you or the children, all these things have no place in parenting or relationships. Take ownership of your marriage, let me guess - you asked her out, you asked her to be your girlfriend, you asked her to marry you - this relationship exists because of you, own it, be a strong husband and father and change the dynamic in the home. She is immature, she shows that to you in her behavior, treat her like a bratty teenager, get after her when she has bad behavior, be the “father” figure to her if you have to in order to correct her, it sounds like she needs that. She needs to have a little fear of disrespecting you, of crossing you, it sounds like she has none. It sounds like you fear her. 
Good luck. Years of bad habits will not break easily for either of you.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

One more thing OP, you mentioned correcting her abusiveness in front of your son, that is a good thing. It shows him to not take abuse in his future relationships with women. You don’t want for him to grow up to be a woman’s doormat. I’d suggest following up with a stern discussion alone with her afterward letting her know you’d rather not correct her in front of the children but she leaves you no choice.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

tribezulu said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm a first time poster. I've thought about posting here before, but I never know just how to start. Anyhow, here goes...
> 
> ...


Sounds exactly like my marriage, she didn't respect me and ended up leaving me for another man, i could not do enough to make her happy and she constantly thought I was a terrible husband,

Options are suck it up and keep going until one of you dies or she leaves you, marriage counseling or file for Divorce.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

People treat you the way that you allow.

1. Stop being a slob. This is the easiest step. Pick up after yourself. Honor your obligations and commitments. 

2. Read No More Mister Nice Guy...NOW. 

3. Stop being passive in the face of disrespectful treatment and lousy behavior. 

"Would you be okay with me nagging you?"

"Would you be okay with me treating you disrespectfully?"

"When you bring such negativity into our home, it leads me to want to spend less time with you."

I cannot stress this enough...most women respond to strong men. Also, you clearly are disappointed in yourself for tolerating the situation. Go for the win-win and be assertive.

She will not like it at first. She is used to nagging you into what she wants. While she won't like you for it, she will respect you for it. I would also wager that as respect builds, your sex life will improve as well.

It starts with you. Can you find your intestinal fortitude (balls)?


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

tribezulu, Unjani?

I have a couple of questions about your wife's anger - a lot of your commentary has to do with how it makes you feel (and it is good that you are identifying that). 
Can you identify the target of your wife's irritation/anger? Is she just generally angry ... and then latching onto something you or your kids have done? Or does it feel like the anger is directed at you or at your son from the outset? (When people are angry around us, especially if we have a nurturing/caretaking type personality, it can feel like their anger is our fault. That it is caused by something we did or didn't do. That often isn't the case.) If you try talking to her when she is not already angry, in a neutral or private setting, does she get angry/defensive immediately; or is she open to talking over the situation afterwards pretty neutrally? How is your wife's overall stress state? Is she under a lot of pressure at work, getting very frustrated in any other areas of her life? How does her family (parents etc.) deal with anger? I'm assuming that it is different to the way yours does?

Anger can be a very strange emotion in a family. I grew up in a home with an angry father. He never ever physically abused us, but he (still) easily and vocally show intense irritation or even outright anger when something or someone gets on his nerves. As I rarely remember feeling threatened or attacked by this, I wouldn't even call it direct emotional abuse. And as an adult and knowing my grandparents, I understand where this comes from in him; and can appreciate how much more control he has learned over the example his mother set. And I did learn to largely ignore him when he was having a tantrum. But both my brother and I, according to our spouses, have "bad" tempers. So I guess maybe we learned that too. We've both dialled it down a big notch down from his (mostly because we have far more chilled personalities). But to this day, my dad's anger still freaks my mom out ... and the best advice I can give her is "Ignore it, let him vent and he'll be rational again when he's done." But I can appreciate that, especially for someone who was never exposed to that as a child, or was perhaps over-exposed to it in a more damaging way, it could be a pretty unpleasant experience. 

I have learned to control my own anger as I've gotten older. Mostly because I started to see the consequences on my kids and my husband; and also because he became more outspoken about it. (Because sometimes I need to have someone call me on my ****.) So I can say a few things that have worked well for me, although this area of my life is still a WIP:
- having my attention drawn to the fact that my anger, as I was expressing it, was damaging to my family. 
- individual counselling (I chose to go, but my husband made sure that I never had any excuses for not going)
- knowing and planning for the fact that certain kinds of stress are a huge trigger for me. 
- being able to acknowledge my anger and then say to my kids "I'm not angry at you, I'm angry because of all sorts of things that have nothing to do our family. I love you very much, but Mom needs a time out." And then taking it.
- realising that even when my anger may be justifiable, I can choose to express it more constructively. Especially around the people I love.

Speaking as a sometimes-still-angry person:
When she gets angry at you, your choice to get angry back is a (natural and) defensive one. My guess is that when you try being assertive and argue back ... that didn't/doesn't end well. But know this - you don't have to outshout her, or out-anger her to be heard or to be strong. (All that happens when you do that is escalation.) But, if you stand firm and calm, then her anger has nothing to feed off. *If you know within yourself that her anger is neither your fault nor your responsibility*, you can treat it like you would a child's tantrum. Simply state your position and hold it. And keep holding it until her anger wears itself out. "Yes, the kitchen could be tidier, but I had other priorities." "I'm sorry that you feel that way." For me, the quickest path to rational discussion is to allow the angry person to vent until they realise they aren't getting anywhere with that ... and then discuss calmly. It really is practically impossible to have an extended argument with yourself.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. You've all given me something to think about.

I'll follow up with some of your responses individually now.

Really appreciate everyone's feedback.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Have your wife read Dance of Anger.

And this post.

She needs to know your truth so she knows how seriously her attitude has affected your love and desire to stay married.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Mizzbak said:


> tribezulu, Unjani?
> 
> I have a couple of questions about your wife's anger - a lot of your commentary has to do with how it makes you feel (and it is good that you are identifying that).
> Can you identify the target of your wife's irritation/anger? Is she just generally angry ... and then latching onto something you or your kids have done? Or does it feel like the anger is directed at you or at your son from the outset? (When people are angry around us, especially if we have a nurturing/caretaking type personality, it can feel like their anger is our fault. That it is caused by something we did or didn't do. That often isn't the case.) If you try talking to her when she is not already angry, in a neutral or private setting, does she get angry/defensive immediately; or is she open to talking over the situation afterwards pretty neutrally? How is your wife's overall stress state? Is she under a lot of pressure at work, getting very frustrated in any other areas of her life? How does her family (parents etc.) deal with anger? I'm assuming that it is different to the way yours does?
> ...


I'm not Unjani. The truth is I couldn't think of a name to use, and Tribezulu is one from a long time ago that we used on a team. First thing that came to mind.

*Can you identify the target of your wife's irritation/anger?*
My wife gets in these moods maybe once a week or two. When she does she will literally argue with everyone in the house. She's becomes like a machine gun.... yelling and talking over everyone. She is also a bit of a terror when we are going to have an event at our house... it's at least a few days straight of fighting. I'm 100% sure it's internal, maybe also a bit chemical. The primary targets are me and our son.

It effects other areas of her life as well. As I said she doesn't have close friends and occasionally she gets into it with other people as well. 

I appreciate you opening up about your family and how it has impacted your personality. I too grew up with an angry father that impacted my personality. I'm a really calm person. It takes a lot to get me going, but when it happens I'm gone and there is no coming back until I'm left alone for a while. 

When she gets in a mood I usually say "Please lower your voice" or "You don't need to yell to be heard" a few times, each time I get progressively more vocal and assertive. If she continues I usually either throw my hands in the air and say I'm done with this conversation and walk away, or I start yelling back. Of the two approaches walking away is the better option, because I don't want to yell in front of my kids. I think it's important to model behavior.

I really like your advice to "state your position and hold it". I'll work on that. I think my resolve breaks down because when she's yelling and talking over me it's so irritating, annoying and disrespectful. I find my anger really builds up to the point where I just walk away or blow a gasket. Viewing it as a child's tantrum would definitely help... I've always been good at handling those with my kids. Maybe I would be with my wife as well.

Seriously, thanks so much.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Satya said:


> Have your wife read Dance of Anger.
> 
> And this post.
> 
> She needs to know your truth so she knows how seriously her attitude has affected your love and desire to stay married.


Hmmm... she'd lose it! Maybe we should start with the counselling and build to this?

I've already suggested that she get help with her anger. Maybe this book would be a good start.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

JayDee7 said:


> One more thing OP, you mentioned correcting her abusiveness in front of your son, that is a good thing. It shows him to not take abuse in his future relationships with women. You don’t want for him to grow up to be a woman’s doormat. I’d suggest following up with a stern discussion alone with her afterward letting her know you’d rather not correct her in front of the children but she leaves you no choice.


Yeah, I won't stand for the verbal abuse with the kids. Frankly, I've even had several talks with my kids about their mom's anger. I try to let them know that she loves them and cares for them a lot, but she has anger issues. It's the truth. And, I don't want them to think that her internal challenges in any way reflect how much she loves them.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

JayDee7 said:


> OP your wife sounds like a bit of a shrew. You sound weak in asserting your position in the home and relationship. It’s been 15 years so it may be too late for you to change yourself to correct her bad behavior.
> -First time your wife disrespects you pull her aside, alone, and look her in her eyes and sternly tell her you will not stand for it, she is not to disrespect you ever. This is a relationship which should be built on trust and have good communication, disrespect and negativity should have no place in it. Each time she disrespects you pull her aside and correct her behavior, her disrespect or insults are abusive and you cannot alllow it, ever.
> -When she yells handle it the same way, sternly look at her and tell her to stop yelling, tell her to have a calm rational discussion otherwise she should be quiet until she calms down, but there will be no yelling at you or the children. It’s abusive and it shows her lack of control and maturity.
> -When she gets after your son in a way you do not approve of, pull her aside and tell her why you feel differently. He’s both of yours, you both have to be on the same page in how to discipline, direct, guide and how to correct your children. Abusive yelling or negativity is not an option and you should not allow it, ever.
> ...


*You sound weak in asserting your position in the home and relationship*
Maybe. I'm pretty vocal. Everything I've written in here I've talked to her about. I think part of my problem is I respond to anger with anger. When she starts yelling I put so much of my energy towards not losing my self-control. I think you're right that my position could be better asserted, but maybe that assertion could calm from me remaining more cool under fire.

*Sounds like she controls everything*
She tries to. I can be fairly controlling about some things as well. 

*"Chores, it’s great that you do so much in house but do not expect any recognition or reward for it, ever. It’s just your responsibility..."*
I agree. I don't expect recognition at all. I just want her to consider the 9 things I did, before she berates me for the 1 thing that I missed. It's annoying when you worked your butt off all day and you get nagged for some minor thing you didn't do.

*Good luck. Years of bad habits will not break easily for either of you*
Ain't that the truth. Here's to the journey! And thanks for the advice.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

GuyInColorado said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I have sex 10 times a week. Definitely not worth putting up with a crazy woman that is abusing you and your children.
> 
> ...



Geez, don't think I could handle ten times a week!

I'm in pretty good shape for my age. Could eat a bit better, but I don't drink or use any funky substances. I'm high on life, man!

I like the phrase "distant yourself from her misery". That is exactly what I need to do.

I do recognize that divorce is a real possibility. Frankly, if it weren't for the kids, I don't think we would have hung in this long. But I will work on it, and in doing so I will work on myself.

All the best!


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Noble1 said:


> Combine this with everything else you mention, there is a lot of work to do between the both of you.
> 
> As mentioned, getting a professional opinion (therapy) may be helpful to start things off.
> 
> Good luck.


The thing that's interesting about our sex life is when we actually get busy, it's pretty intense. We've never had trouble in that department. And frankly, I'm not a guy that needs it everyday or anything. A few times a month is pretty good for me.

I think part of the problem for her is she can be so obsessed about so many other things, like work, and cleaning and a million other things. She wants to take care of everything before she can relax and get in the mood, but things are never completely taken care of.

The other problem is I don't think we like each other that much anymore. We love each other, but too often we don't like each other. It definitely kills the desire for me.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

Thor said:


> Get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith. It is a whole lot more than the title suggests. After reading it you may want to give it to your 14 yr old.
> 
> As to your wife, I think she is way too concerned about outside appearances. My xw was like that. It is a defense mechanism or compensation for an internal psychological issue. There is something which she feels very badly about internally. Maybe your W's mother berated her all the time, so she feels worthless. Idk what it is with your W, but I think she has a deep self esteem issue which she is trying to keep hidden. My w's case was child sex abuse, which for her (and which is typical) was something she dreaded anybody finding out about. I'm not saying your W has something really terrible like that, just saying that your W seems like she is trying to keep people from seeing something about her. If she feels she is worthless or stupid or ugly or whatever, she'll put up a good front to the outside world. Her screaming and yelling is either a reaction to fear or another wall she is putting up. Maybe she feels she is a bad mother or a bad wife, so she yells to offload the blame onto others.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the reading material. I'll definitely give a few of them a read. Heck having them around is sure to send a message.

*As to your wife, I think she is way too concerned about outside appearances.*
She is definitely really concerned about what other people think. If you saw her Facebook page you would think she has the best life in the world, and that she is always happy. 

A lot of her issues do stem from her childhood. Her mother is very obsessive and concerned about what everyone thinks. She's a nag and will get right into everyone's business. Frankly, my wife needs to be careful or she will turn into her mother.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The psychologist in me would love to see you mirror her behaviors. Tot for tat. Eventually one of you will blink or walk away.

Usually we mirror behaviors subconsciously. But this could work well if you do it consciously, and see if it has any impact on her.

If it shakes her confidence or willingness to do more of the same, that's good. If she feeds on it, run.


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## tribezulu (Mar 10, 2010)

john117 said:


> The psychologist in me would love to see you mirror her behaviors. Tot for tat. Eventually one of you will blink or walk away.
> 
> Usually we mirror behaviors subconsciously. But this could work well if you do it consciously, and see if it has any impact on her.
> 
> If it shakes her confidence or willingness to do more of the same, that's good. If she feeds on it, run.


I definitely mirror her behavior subconsciously. Never tried to consciously. Not sure how she'd react... she once threw a (plastic) ketchup bottle at me for much less!


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Does your wife get depressed? Does she have major mood swings?


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

tribezulu said:


> I'm not Unjani. The truth is I couldn't think of a name to use, and Tribezulu is one from a long time ago that we used on a team. First thing that came to mind.
> 
> smile2: Unjani is Zulu for "How are you?" ... you can respond "Ngikhona, wena unjani?" (I'm fine, you, how are you?) ... or not, as the case may be. I still remember sitting for a good while trying to choose a suitable TAM name!)
> 
> ...





Rick Blaine said:


> Does your wife get depressed? Does she have major mood swings?


Also important here, is she on any form of medication that could be affecting her mood? I've seen that certain anti-depressants have a very strong impact on my ability to control my temper, or it could be something as seemingly innocuous as birth control. It's certainly worth exploring whether this could be a factor. 



> *As to your wife, I think she is way too concerned about outside appearances.*
> She is definitely really concerned about what other people think. If you saw her Facebook page you would think she has the best life in the world, and that she is always happy.
> A lot of her issues do stem from her childhood. Her mother is very obsessive and concerned about what everyone thinks. She's a nag and will get right into everyone's business. Frankly, my wife needs to be careful or she will turn into her mother.


This sucks. And maybe might be a less inflammatory place to start in MC, if you can get both of you there. But I also think that you're possibly processing some of your wife's more positive actions through this negative filter. Have you ever tried "I saw your comment on Facebook about us and it made me feel special. It would make me feel even more special if you would also say it just to me in private so that I can see it in your eyes as well"? 

The problem with anger expressed like your wife is currently doing it, is that it can start poisoning a relationship really quickly. I do agree 100% with others on this thread that you need to talk to your wife about the extent to which her anger is affecting you, your son and your feelings about your marriage. Love can be pretty tough, but not when it gets acid dripped on it daily. But you also need to recognise your part in the dynamic (maybe because of how you feel about anger from your family). And I'm not saying that your feelings or responses are unfair or at all unwarranted. But this is also about whether you're prepared to change anything on your side to get both of you to a better place.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Your wife sounds a bit like my Ex except my Ex was a alcoholic to boot. In my case things only got better when she started having a affair which I found out about later. Now I'm divorced and remarried and I can't believe how I was able to live before. My new wife is no shrinking violet. We do have the occasional disagreement, however unlike my Ex she does negotiate, so I don't feel like I'm always on the losing end. Also she has this odd rule that a women should never deny her husband sex ( who am I to argue  ), so things are always good on that front.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I'll say it. You do understand, if the genders were reversed most posters would be screaming emotional abuse and tell you to run, hide and divorce? Yes, it is just your side but irrational emotional outbursts, fighting over small things, unwarranted raging and you soothing the kids with "your mom loves you...but" has all the ear marks of an abusive relationship.

Has she ever hit or slapped you? Please don't rationalize it with, "well it doesn't hurt" or "I'm stronger so it doesn't matter" like some men do.


Oh and your comment is kind of ironic, your wife has already turned into you her mom from what you just described. You love her so, you have downplayed it in your mind.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tribezulu said:


> My wife gets in these moods maybe once a week or two.... our whole marriage has been like this.


Tribe, when recurring mood swings (i.e., emotional instability) lasts for only a year or two, the two most common causes are a strong hormone change and drug abuse. However, you are not talking about a _temporary_ instability but, rather, a persistent _lifetime_ instability that has persisted throughout your 15-year marriage.

The three common causes of lifetime instability are BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder), and bipolar disorder. Significantly, you are NOT describing a pattern of IED symptoms because you say "the primary targets are me and our son." If she exhibited strong IED symptoms, her rages would be frequently triggered by anyone, including strangers in a grocery store, and likely would be evident in road rage incidents. Moreover, if she exhibited strong bipolar symptoms, you likely would be describing one or two mood swings occurring each year -- not the event triggered rages lasting only 5 hours to a day or two, which you are describing here.

I therefore suggest you consider whether BPD traits may apply. Many behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, trying to "control everything," temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, low self esteem, black-white thinking, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD (only a professional can determine whether her symptoms are that severe). Rather, I'm suggesting she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, icy withdrawal, and temper tantrums.



> The primary targets are me and our son.


The vast majority of full-blown BPDers -- statistics suggest 2/3 to 3/4 of them -- are "high functioning." This means that they typically hold jobs and generally get along fine with coworkers, clients, casual friends, and total strangers. None of those people is able to trigger the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be _abandoned_ and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of _engulfment_. 

Hence, with the vast majority of BPDers, the strong BPD symptoms usually appear only when someone (e.g., a casual friend) makes the mistake of drawing close to the BPDer. This is why it is common for high functioning BPDers to excel in very difficult jobs such as being a social worker, teacher, surgeon, professional actor, or salesman. And this is why most BPDers can be considerate and friendly all day long to complete strangers -- but will go home at night to verbally abuse the very people who love them. 



> When he was younger she could be such a good mom to him, but as he's gotten older their relationship has really gone downhill.


If your W really is a high-functioning BPDer (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum), that is to be expected. HF BPDers typically do quite well when caring for a young child because that child is so fully dependent that he poses no threat of abandonment -- and his self identity is so fragile and immature that it does not make the BPDer feel like she is being controlled and suffocated by a strong personality. When the child becomes much more mature, however, he will start triggering both of those fears.



> She doesn't really have close friends.


Again, this is to be expected if she is a HF BPDer. As noted above, a BPDer typically does not feel threatened by casual friends, business colleagues, or complete strangers. She will feel threatened, however, when one of those folks makes the mistake of trying to maintain a close long-term friendship. Eventually, the BPDer will feel so hurt and offended (over a misperceived injustice) that she will push the friend away by creating a fight over absolutely nothing. My BPDer exW, for example, reached that point at about 4 years with two close friends -- and at 7 years with a close friend who lived a long distance away. Generally, BPDers don't have any close friends unless the friend lives in another city.



> Viewing it as a child's tantrum would definitely help.


It not only "would help" but also would be accurate if she is a BPDer with very strong traits. In that case, her emotional development likely would be frozen at the level of a 4 year old. This is why a BPDer is so heavily reliant on the primitive ego defenses used by young children. These include, e.g., temper tantrums, projection, black-white thinking, and denial.



> We have sex very rarely (probably less than ten times per year.


Like nearly every other adult, BPDers typically crave intimacy and sex. Yet, because they are so emotionally immature and have such a fragile self identity, they cannot tolerate it for very long before they start to feel like the partner's strong personality is suffocating and controlling them. 

Usually, this problem is NOT seen during the courtship period because the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has arrived to rescue her from unhappiness. In that way, the infatuation holds her two fears at bay. It is only when the infatuation starts to fade -- usually about 4 to 6 months into the R/S -- that the two fears return and you will start triggering them. This is why it is common for sexual activity to decrease dramatically after the wedding in BPDer relationships.

When that scary feeling of engulfment occurs, a BPDer's subconscious protects her by projecting this painful feeling outside her body -- onto you. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she is absolutely convinced -- at a conscious level -- that the hurtful feelings and thoughts are originating from you. She therefore will start a fight -- over nothing at all -- to push you away and give her breathing space. 

This is why a BPDer often will start fights immediately after a very intimate evening or great weekend -- or right in the middle of a very expensive vacation. And this is why you often will see an angry BPDer making allegations so absurd that you are amazed any adult is capable of saying such nonsense while keeping a straight face.



> She tries to control everything.


If she is a BPDer, she feels a powerful need to control your actions because she feels suffocated and engulfed when you are close for too long -- and she feels abandoned and unloved when you are too far away for too long. This predicament occurs because a BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means that it is impossible for you to back away from triggering one of her fears without starting to trigger the other fear.

As you draw close to assure her of your love, for example, you will trigger a BPDer's engulfment fear because, although BPDers crave intimacy, they cannot tolerate it for very long. Due to a BPDer's fragile, weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like you're trying to control her -- and she will get the scary feeling of being engulfed. As I noted above, she therefore will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will start triggering her abandonment fear.

Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. The result is that the abused partner in a BPDer relationship will often feel like he is walking on eggshells. That's why _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ is the name of the best-selling BPD book that is targeted to the abused spouses and other family members.



> My wife is a yeller. She talks over people.


_"Swinging from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)"_ is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. See *9 BPD Traits at NIMH*. If she is a BPDer, her feelings can go from one polar extreme to the other in just a few seconds. It will be so quick that it will seem like she has flipped a switch in her mind. BPDers can flip very quickly from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you). And they can flip back again just as quickly. 

These rapid flips arise from _"black-white thinking."_ Like a young child, a BPDer is too emotionally immature to be able to handle strong conflicting feelings (e.g., love and hate). A BPDer therefore has great difficulty tolerating ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of close interpersonal relationships. Her subconscious solves this problem by "splitting off" the strong conflicting feeling, putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind. This way, she only has to deal with one intense feeling at a time.

She therefore will categorize everyone close to her as "all good" (i.e., "white" or "with me") or "all bad" (i.e., "black" or "against me"). And she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or action. Because a BPDer's close friends eventually will be "split black," it is unusual for a BPDer to have really close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away). This B-W thinking also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...."



> She can be so angry... She goes on stretches where she is a bit more laid back, but there is always a tornado just around the corner.


_"Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger"_ is another one of the nine defining BPD symptoms. If your W is a BPDer, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that will TRIGGER a release of anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a hissy fit in only ten seconds over very minor actions or comments. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.



> She can be obsessive about cleaning and stuff.


About 25% of females having full-blown BPD also suffer from full-blown OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive PD). And 81% of female full-blown BPDers have a co-occurring anxiety disorder. See Table 3 at *2008 Study in JCP*.



> She is very sensitive when people say things to her.


BPDers are thin-skinned and easily offended by imagined offenses. Due to their weak ability to regulate emotions, BPDers frequently experience emotions so intense that those feelings distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations.



> Does my wife need help? I've never known anyone that acts the way she does.... Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.


Tribe, I agree with the three suggestions that @*Farside* offered above. In addition, I suggest that you consult with a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your son are dealing with. 

Of course, learning to spot BPD warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid staying in a toxic marriage -- and may help you decide whether the situation is serious enough to warrant speaking with a psychologist.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join *FarSide,* *Satya*, *MJJean*, and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Tribe.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> tribezulu, Unjani?
> 
> I have a couple of questions about your wife's anger - a lot of your commentary has to do with how it makes you feel (and it is good that you are identifying that).
> Can you identify the target of your wife's irritation/anger? Is she just generally angry ... and then latching onto something you or your kids have done? Or does it feel like the anger is directed at you or at your son from the outset? (When people are angry around us, especially if we have a nurturing/caretaking type personality, it can feel like their anger is our fault. That it is caused by something we did or didn't do. That often isn't the case.) If you try talking to her when she is not already angry, in a neutral or private setting, does she get angry/defensive immediately; or is she open to talking over the situation afterwards pretty neutrally? How is your wife's overall stress state? Is she under a lot of pressure at work, getting very frustrated in any other areas of her life? How does her family (parents etc.) deal with anger? I'm assuming that it is different to the way yours does?
> ...


This is a good post. An honest post.
I tried everything to counter my always angry wife.

Being calm and collective, using logic did not work.
Fighting back within reason escalated the problem....as you mentioned.

What worked for me was RAGE.
Oh, yeah, giving her a heads up that she was out of place, and wrong.

When she continued, the Lion ROARED. The neighbors ten houses down could hear me...if the windows were open!!!

Now, this is after many minutes of her badgering me. Following me around the house, literally poking me with her index finger on my chest.
Within seconds of me unloading she was calm. 

She hates the calm side of me. I hate the angry side of her of anyone.

She only respects power.


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