# Why men cheat v. Why women cheat



## jld

Why women cheat vs Why men cheat

Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons? 

It seems on TAM that we want to lump the sexes together in ways that do not really help us understand them. Understanding is key to solving problems. Why the resistance?

It does not justify cheating for either sex. Is that the bottom line concern, that somehow cheating for women will be justified?


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## staystrong

Sure, there may be differences. But yes, it does tend to lead to justifications for women, because women can play the emotional card. I sometimes wonder if other women are more judgmental or sympathetic to that depending on their own belief systems and experiences. Some women don't buy other women's BS, some are easily duped.

Why is it important to stress the differences in your opinion? The more important issues are common -- FOO issues, conflict-avoidant, naiveté, entitlement, lack of boundaries, etc.


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## jld

staystrong said:


> Sure, there may be differences. But yes, it does tend to lead to justifications for women, because women can play the emotional card. I sometimes wonder if other women are more judgmental or sympathetic to that depending on their own belief systems and experiences. Some women don't buy other women's BS, some are easily duped.
> 
> Why is it important to stress the differences in your opinion? The more important issues are common -- FOO issues, conflict-avoidant, naiveté, entitlement, lack of boundaries, etc.


I think to solve problems, you have to understand what you are dealing with. 

I also think we have to be truthful to solve problems. Lumping the sexes together, imo, is not being truthful.

For sure, I do not think cheating is "okay." I think it really hurts a lot of people, probably the cheater most of all. They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience. 

Though, like karole said, some people may not have much of a conscience.


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## Pluto2

jld said:


> For sure, I do not think cheating is "okay." I think it really hurts a lot of people, probably the cheater most of all. They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience.


You're going to stir a lot of pots asserting that the cheater is hurt more than the betrayed, a premise I don't share. So don't be surprised by the responses you get.


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## jld

Pluto2 said:


> You're going to stir a lot of pots asserting that the cheater is hurt more than the betrayed, a premise I don't share. So don't be surprised by the responses you get.


Okay. You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right? That they made the choice that set the house on fire?


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## Pluto2

Yes. But -using your analogy- is the arsonist hurt more than the folks that were burned inside the house?


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## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Yes. But -using your analogy- is the arsonist hurt more than the folks that were burned inside the house?


You feel like the arsonist is getting away scot free. That the people have burn wounds that they were in no way responsible for. For the children that is certainly true. It may also be true for the spouse. 

If the arsonist truly has no conscience, maybe he is getting away scot free. I don't think many people are conscience-free, though. Or at least I hope not.


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## Therealbrighteyes

jld said:


> Why women cheat vs Why men cheat
> 
> Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons?
> 
> It seems on TAM that we want to lump the sexes together in ways that do not really help us understand them. Understanding is key to solving problems. Why the resistance?
> 
> It does not justify cheating for either sex. Is that the bottom line concern, that somehow cheating for women will be justified?


I think the controversy comes because it seeks to define reasons that just don't hold up. Let's take the top reason why men cheat, sex. If that were true, then why aren't men seeking prostitutes rather than full blown affairs? If womens top reason is emotional intimacy, then why aren't they having EA's rather than PA's? It seeks to find neatly tied up packages of gender stereotypes to justify cheating which don't stand up to scrutiny. If she only had more sex with him, he wouldn't have cheated. If he only listened to her more, she wouldn't have cheated. Oddly, in all of these types of articles I have yet to see "poor decision making" as a reason and yet that's what infidelity is. It's like burning down your house because you hate your wall color.


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## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Okay. You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right? That they made the choice that set the house on fire?


But the point I think you are missing JLD is that many WS, men and women, don't carry around anything because they don't care.


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## timedoesnothealall

*You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right?*

Trouble is, what is carried around is often "What might have been" or "Those treasured moments together" and other equally fond memories. Not great solace for a BS.


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## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> But the point I think you are missing JLD is that many WS, men and women, don't carry around anything because they don't care.


I think that is what karole was saying, that some people truly do not have a conscience.


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## jld

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think the controversy comes because it seeks to define reasons that just don't hold up. Let's take the top reason why men cheat, sex. If that were true, then why aren't men seeking prostitutes rather than full blown affairs? If womens top reason is emotional intimacy, then why aren't they having EA's rather than PA's? It seeks to find neatly tied up packages of gender stereotypes to justify cheating which don't stand up to scrutiny. If she only had more sex with him, he wouldn't have cheated. If he only listened to her more, she wouldn't have cheated. Oddly, in all of these types of articles I have yet to see "poor decision making" as a reason and yet that's what infidelity is. It's like burning down your house because you hate your wall color.


So you disagree with the article? It said it is based on research. You think the research is incomplete?


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## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I think that is what karole was saying, that some people truly do not have a conscience.


And I would agree except change the word some to many


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## jld

timedoesnothealall said:


> *You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right?*
> 
> Trouble is, what is carried around is often "What might have been" or "Those treasured moments together" and other equally fond memories. Not great solace for a BS.


I am sure this is hard, this idea that a woman can love more than one man, or a man more than one woman, while acknowledging they have responsibilities to that one person.


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## Therealbrighteyes

jld said:


> I think it really hurts a lot of people, probably the cheater most of all. They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience.


I don't agree with this statement. Oftentimes the cheater has little to no consequence at all. Look at the stories around TAM and see how many spouses just up and run off in to the sunset with their affair partner. It's the former spouse who is left to deal with the financial, emotional and physical fallout. Kids who now are from a broken home, Mom who has to sell the house because she can no longer afford it or Dad who only gets to see his kids twice a month now. 

No, I don't think the cheater is hurt most of all. Even with couples who stay together after infidelity, the betrayed is constantly having thoughts of what is he or she doing?, what does he or she really think of me?, did he or she only stay because of the kids? and worst of all.....is this going to happen again? The cheater in those types of situation probably feels guilt and disgust over his or her actions but they don't bear the consequences of their actions the same way the betrayed does.


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## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> And I would agree except change the word some to many


You really think so? I guess I do not want to believe that it is so widespread.


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## pidge70

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't agree with this statement. Oftentimes the cheater has little to no consequence at all. Look at the stories around TAM and see how many spouses just up and run off in to the sunset with their affair partner. It's the former spouse who is left to deal with the financial, emotional and physical fallout. Kids who now are from a broken home, Mom who has to sell the house because she can no longer afford it or Dad who only gets to see his kids twice a month now.
> 
> No, I don't think the cheater is hurt most of all. Even with couples who stay together after infidelity, the betrayed is constantly having thoughts of what is he or she doing?, what does he or she really think of me?, did he or she only stay because of the kids? and worst of all.....is this going to happen again? The cheater in those types of situation probably feels guilt and disgust over his or her actions but they don't bear the consequences of their actions the same way the betrayed does.


:iagree:


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## jld

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't agree with this statement. Oftentimes the cheater has little to no consequence at all. Look at the stories around TAM and see how many spouses just up and run off in to the sunset with their affair partner. It's the former spouse who is left to deal with the financial, emotional and physical fallout. Kids who now are from a broken home, Mom who has to sell the house because she can no longer afford it or Dad who only gets to see his kids twice a month now.
> 
> No, I don't think the cheater is hurt most of all. Even with couples who stay together after infidelity, the betrayed is constantly having thoughts of what is he or she doing?, what does he or she really think of me?, did he or she only stay because of the kids? and worst of all.....is this going to happen again? The cheater in those types of situation probably feels guilt and disgust over his or her actions but they don't bear the consequences of their actions the same way the betrayed does.


But they know it was their own decision to go outside the marriage. When it comes right down to it, they know they lit the match. That is on them their whole lives. Even if they do not want to admit it, inside, they know.


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## staystrong

I've heard this one before: "It's hard for the leaver, too."

I'm sorry but screw that. It's a million times harder for the BS to have your heart ripped out and watch someone run off with someone else like a fool. A leaver's nostalgia for what might have been in no way compares to the PTSD of being cheated on. PLEASE. That's comparing a paper cut to being chainsawed through the heart.


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## pidge70

jld said:


> But they know it was their own decision to go outside the marriage. When it comes right down to it, they know they lit the match. That is on them their whole lives. Even if they do not want to admit it, inside, they know.


You realize, some people do not care? You have heard of compartmentalization?


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## staystrong

jld said:


> But they know it was their own decision to go outside the marriage. When it comes right down to it, they know they lit the match. That is on them their whole lives. Even if they do not want to admit it, inside, they know.


You'd be surprised what people can suppress. 

Okay, so they "failed themselves" and feel the guilt. If that's the worst they feel, they still got off really really well.


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## jld

staystrong said:


> I've heard this one before: "It's hard for the leaver, too."
> 
> I'm sorry but screw that. It's a million times harder for the BS to have your heart ripped out and watch someone run off with someone else like a fool. A leaver's nostalgia for what might have been in no way compares to the PTSD of being cheated on. PLEASE. That's comparing a paper cut to being chainsawed through the heart.


Staystrong, the only correct response to a cheater leaving you is relief and gratitude that the wrong person got out of your life so that the new person, who is going to love and value you just for the wonderful person you are, can come in.

We have all been left at some point (well, most of us). And I hope that we are now glad things did not work out. 

I know I am much happier with my husband than with what I would have settled for with the previous man. I was so foolish, but I could not see it then. I am so glad I did not get what I (thought I) wanted.


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## jld

pidge70 said:


> You realize, some people do not care? You have heard of compartmentalization?


I think that is what karole meant, yes.


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## staystrong

jld said:


> Staystrong, the only correct response to a cheater leaving you is relief and gratitude that the wrong person got out of your life so that the new person, who is going to love and value you just for the wonderful person you are, can come in.
> 
> We have all been left at some point (well, most of us). And I hope that we are now glad things did not work out.
> 
> I know I am much happier with my husband than with what I would have settled for with the previous man. I was so foolish, but I could not see it then. I am so glad I did not get what I (thought I) wanted.


Well, I'd much rather be in your husband's position than my own. I think people sometimes realize their foolishness but too late, and that's unfortunate.


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## Healer

jld said:


> Okay. You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right?


Good thing us BS don't.


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## jld

staystrong said:


> Well, I'd much rather be in your husband's position than my own. I think people sometimes realize their foolishness but too late, and that's unfortunate.


The right woman will come along, staystrong. Just keep taking care of yourself, and working on healing. 

Dh has been great to me, and I do appreciate him. I just wish I had come to him pure. But maybe if I had, I would not appreciate him as much as I do.


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## jld

Healer said:


> Good thing us BS don't.


I was talking about _guilt._


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## Therealbrighteyes

jld said:


> So you disagree with the article? It said it is based on research. You think the research is incomplete?


I don't know, JLD. The research comes from therapists based on answers their patients have given. I think it is the "best" answer of sorts to their minimize guilt. Again, if sex was the primary motivator, why actively seek an affair? If emotional connection was the primary motivator, why a physical affair? I think if they were being honest with their answers, it would be that they wanted that new love feelings and sex was a byproduct. Their actions largely bear that out but that would be the most guilt producing answer. I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts here, so forgive me if none of this makes sense.


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## Wolfman1968

jld said:


> So you disagree with the article? It said it is based on research. You think the research is incomplete?


It's not research. It's RATIONALIZATION.

It's the cheaters' self-reported JUSTIFICATION for their actions.


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## Pluto2

jld said:


> Staystrong, the only correct response to a cheater leaving you is relief and gratitude....


Major trigger.
Who are you to determine what the only correct response to anything is? To suggest there is one, and only one response is perjorative. People feel what they feel, and emotions go all over the board.


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## staystrong

I guess she mean 'theoretically correct'. As in if you were to understand the bigger picture, you'd feel relief.

My issue with that is I have seen people who have been left but still have issues many years later, love the person they are with, but can never get over their first marriage and family. 

I understand the guilt is carried. I have a friend who left her H for her first flame. Broke up a 10 year marriage. I remember talking about my XW and said that she is very beautiful on the outside but not so beautiful on the inside. I saw the friend's face change, as she applied that thought to herself.


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> Staystrong, the only correct response to a cheater leaving you is relief and gratitude that the wrong person got out of your life so that the new person, who is going to love and value you just for the wonderful person you are, can come in.
> 
> We have all been left at some point (well, most of us). *And I hope that we are now glad things did not work out. *
> 
> I know I am much happier with my husband than with what I would have settled for with the previous man. I was so foolish, but I could not see it then. I am so glad I did not get what I (thought I) wanted.


If "things" don't work out, one hope to discover that sooner rather than later. And then feel relief for getting out of the relationship.

but no, at least none that I know, go into a relationship glad that it doesn't work out.

Jld, you really need to think about what you're saying. And no, I am not going to "help" you by guessing what you mean.


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## sidney2718

Pluto2 said:


> Yes. But -using your analogy- is the arsonist hurt more than the folks that were burned inside the house?


I think the point is that it is the arsonists own house.


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## Therealbrighteyes

jld said:


> That is on them their whole lives. Even if they do not want to admit it, inside, they know.


Not when they have lists like you provided that try to justify why it happened in the first place. If what you say is true, then at the top of both lists should be "I am broken" not, sex or emotional fulfillment.


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## NextTimeAround

I think "we / society" likes to say that women cheat for emotional closeness because we are still uncomfortable with the fact that SOME women can have sex without love and not have a problem with it.

Some other gender related beliefs that I have that we can debate:

1. That SOME women like EAs because they are able to get attention without, er, "having to give it up." there was one WW on TAM who admitted that when her EA partner kept pushing for sex, she dumped him. I know that that is a statistic of 1, but it is interesting.

2. Men use a) EAs to get to the PAs or) they are passive-aggressive and like using EAs or in any case, inappropriate friendships, to piss off their wife.

I may think of some more.


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## Served Cold

Cheating is not gender biased. Basically, cheaters cheat for many reasons. To divide male and female cheaters into "why they cheat categories" is futile.

If my home was broken into I doubt the judge at the trial would be concerned if the burglar was male or female. Maybe the female burglar slipped through a window and the male burglar kicked the front door open. No difference if my stereo system and rolex watch was stolen. Different burglar styles is a non issue. 

Affairs are about feeding an ego. Feeding an ego is gender neutral.


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## Wolfman1968

Served Cold said:


> If my home was broken into I doubt the judge at the trial would be concerned if the burglar was male or female. Maybe the female burglar slipped through a window and the male burglar kicked the front door open. No difference if my stereo system and rolex watch was stolen. Different burglar styles is a non issue.


You have a Rolex watch?

What was your address, again?


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## Pluto2

sidney2718 said:


> I think the point is that it is the arsonists own house.


Doesn't change much of my response. Yes the "arsonist" burned down his/her own house. But also the arsonist frequently burned down the OM or OW's house in the process. Nor does it change the fact that the arsonist chose to light the match while the occupants, particularly any children involved were blindsided. I don't disagree that some, or even many, cheaters have guilt after the fact, I just disagree with the assertion that the cheater is the most injured.

[edit] And I acknowledge this is a bit off the original topic so I'll stop


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## Openminded

jld said:


> You feel like the arsonist is getting away scot free. That the people have burn wounds that they were in no way responsible for. For the children that is certainly true. It may also be true for the spouse.
> 
> If the arsonist truly has no conscience, maybe he is getting away scot free. I don't think many people are conscience-free, though. Or at least I hope not.


There are for sure some who have lots of guilt over cheating and the resulting fall-out from that but there are plenty who don't. They walk away without a backward glance. So, yes, I'm afraid there are many out there without a conscience. Obviously not fair to all those who get caught up in their orbit.


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## staystrong

I think they simply change their worldview to incorporate a new view of themselves. What was once black and white (cheating is wrong) became shades of grey (what I'm doing is not wrong) then to "black is white" (love is complicated; now I understand that affairs aren't 'wrong' per se if you fall in love. It "just happens").


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## Dyokemm

"If the arsonist truly has no conscience, maybe he is getting away scot free. I don't think many people are conscience-free, though. Or at least I hope not."

Does anyone even truly give a da*n if somebody feels guilt for their sh*tty behavior?

Do we care if a murderer with a life sentence feels bad sitting around in their cell?

Do we care if a monster like Saddam felt guilt before he went to the hangman's noose?

I know I don't.

I think most of their guilt is over the consequences they have had to face for what they did rather than true empathy for their victims anyway.

Their guilt, genuine or not, is between them and the universe, God, or whatever you (or they) believe in.

F*ck them....here in the world of everyday real life they deserve the consequences they face for what they have done and I could care less if they feel sorry.


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## Graywolf2

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think the controversy comes because it seeks to define reasons that just don't hold up. Let's take the top reason why men cheat, sex. If that were true, then why aren't men seeking prostitutes rather than full blown affairs?


STDs are a concern. Hopefully the AP is having fewer sexual partners than a prostitute. As far as STDs are concerned a married woman is a lower risk than a casual girlfriend. 



Therealbrighteyes said:


> If womens top reason is emotional intimacy, then why aren't they having EA's rather than PA's?


I’ve read many times of how an EA evolves into a PA because the man has spent so much time and effort on the EA that the woman feels that she owes him. 

This is not all or none. Both men and women enjoy aspects of an EA and a PA. I think that sex tends to be higher on the list for men than it is for women. Again, not true for all men or all women.

Women tend to think that an EA is worse and men tend to think that a PA is worse. 

There is a very primitive reason for this. In order to be biologically successful, you have to pass on your genes. Women know that their children are biologically theirs, men don’t. 

A woman’s primary concern was to have a man around to help her children survive. A man’s primary concern was to insure that her children were also his. In other words, a woman wanted a good relationship with her mate to keep him around. 

A man wanted a good relationship so that he wouldn’t be raising another man’s child.

This is why it can be comforting for a woman to be told by her husband that he didn’t care for the OW, it was only sex. 

The wife’s security isn’t jeopardized. A husband isn’t comforted by being told the same thing.


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## Dyokemm

I think I need to add something here too so people better understand my point.

I think 'sorry' and forgiveness are things reserved for (relatively) minor wrongs we do to others, or have done to us.

There are some actions, IMO, that there is no 'sorry' or forgiveness for, and I count betrayal in any form as one of them.


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## Zanne

Dyokemm said:


> I think I need to add something here too so people better understand my point.
> 
> I think 'sorry' and forgiveness are things reserved for (relatively) minor wrongs we do to others, or have done to us.
> 
> *There are some actions, IMO, that there is no 'sorry' or forgiveness for, and I count betrayal in any form as one of them.*


Forgive? or Forget.... And what about Tears? If she was your wife, would you have forgiven her? Clearly she is as remorseful as any person could expect.


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## Dyokemm

"Forgive? or Forget.... And what about Tears? If she was your wife, would you have forgiven her? Clearly she is as remorseful as any person could expect."

I would have divorced her, Zanne.

I agree, she was truly remorseful and sorry for what she did, and not just sorry about the consequences she faced.

But there are some things 'sorry' and remorse, no matter how genuine, just do not excuse IMO.

As you can guess, the answer to you question is that I meant forgive....some things, like betrayal, I do not give a pass on.


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## Zanne

Dyokemm said:


> "Forgive? or Forget.... And what about Tears? If she was your wife, would you have forgiven her? Clearly she is as remorseful as any person could expect."
> 
> I would have divorced her, Zanne.
> 
> I agree, she was truly remorseful and sorry for what she did, and not just sorry about the consequences she faced.
> 
> But there are some things 'sorry' and remorse, no matter how genuine, just do not excuse IMO.
> 
> As you can guess, the answer to you question is that I meant forgive....some things, like betrayal, I do not give a pass on.


I actually don't blame her husband for divorcing. What's done is done. And I'm actually not sure if someone could ever forget such a betrayal. I still don't understand how Wazza could stay in his marriage.

However, forgiveness is just as much for the person who grants it as the one who receives.

So what you're saying is, you could forgive and then move on?


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## Wolf1974

jld said:


> You really think so? I guess I do not want to believe that it is so widespread.


Well I was speaking of general people who can lie and justify about anything not just cheating.

I honestly don't know how prevalent creating is in marriage. I have seen studies suggest up to 1/2 but since so many are lying that has to be off. And is it that cheating woman A cheats and divorces then marries someone else and cheats on them. So that one person is being counted twice? Dunno. Not sure anyone does for sure

All I know is that when my world came apart I felt like I was the only person in the world who was betrayed. Coming to TAM was an eye opener.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Graywolf2 said:


> STDs are a concern. Hopefully the AP is having fewer sexual partners than a prostitute. As far as STDs are concerned a married woman is a lower risk than a casual girlfriend.
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve read many times of how an EA evolves into a PA because the man has spent so much time and effort on the EA that the woman feels that she owes him.
> 
> This is not all or none. Both men and women enjoy aspects of an EA and a PA. I think that sex tends to be higher on the list for men than it is for women. Again, not true for all men or all women.
> 
> Women tend to think that an EA is worse and men tend to think that a PA is worse.
> 
> There is a very primitive reason for this. In order to be biologically successful, you have to pass on your genes. Women know that their children are biologically theirs, men don’t.
> 
> A woman’s primary concern was to have a man around to help her children survive. A man’s primary concern was to insure that her children were also his. In other words, a woman wanted a good relationship with her mate to keep him around.
> 
> A man wanted a good relationship so that he wouldn’t be raising another man’s child.
> 
> This is why it can be comforting for a woman to be told by her husband that he didn’t care for the OW, it was only sex.
> 
> The wife’s security isn’t jeopardized. A husband isn’t comforted by being told the same thing.


I understand what you are saying and if a husband went to a hooker, it would be true about sex, however a great deal of men do not. They seek an affair partner and develop feelings for her, thus jeopardizing the wifes position, sometimes even impregnating their affair partner. Same with a cheating wife. That's why I wrote that if the betrayers were honest about the "why" of their actions, it would more than likely be the new relationship feelings, the butterflies, the anticipation, etc. Otherwise men would minimize the risk and seek out escorts and women would with online affairs. That's just my observation reading around here/other places and my experiences in real life.


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## Forest

jld said:


> You feel like the arsonist is getting away scot free. That the people have burn wounds that they were in no way responsible for. For the children that is certainly true. It may also be true for the spouse.
> 
> If the arsonist truly has no conscience, maybe he is getting away scot free. I don't think many people are conscience-free, though. Or at least I hope not.


I think that people that end up cheating are very likely to be more lacking in conscience than those that don't cheat.

That has certainly been my observation/interpretation in the cases I'm aware of. In every case, the cheater has been someone who felt entitled, or just generally cares less about others than themselves.


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## Dyokemm

"So what you're saying is, you could forgive and then move on?"

Zanne,

Good question...I should be more clear I guess.

No...I'm saying I DO NOT forgive.

A person who wrongs me horrendously can go rot forever as far as I'm concerned,

They are forever dead to me...I am completely indifferent as to their fate or circumstances...to hear the were run over by a bus or met some other tragic circumstance would evoke no sympathy or concern from me.

Thankfully, few people have ever crossed such boundaries with me....on day to day issues/problems I am very understanding and forgiving.

There are just some things that I will never forgive or forget....the few people who have ever done such things to me or people I'm very close too can simply go screw themselves forever.


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## Zanne

Dyokemm said:


> "So what you're saying is, you could forgive and then move on?"
> 
> Zanne,
> 
> Good question...I should be more clear I guess.
> 
> No...I'm saying I DO NOT forgive.
> 
> A person who wrongs me horrendously can go rot forever as far as I'm concerned,
> 
> They are forever dead to me...I am completely indifferent as to their fate or circumstances...to hear the were run over by a bus or met some other tragic circumstance would evoke no sympathy or concern from me.
> 
> Thankfully, few people have ever crossed such boundaries with me....on day to day issues/problems I am very understanding and forgiving.
> 
> There are just some things that I will never forgive or forget....the few people who have ever done such things to me or people I'm very close too can simply go screw themselves forever.


How about just forget about them all together? Forgive them because they're idiots and obviously limited and then move on. Forgive yourself for having known them.

Do you think they are losing any sleep over wronging you? If they have no conscience, not a wink of sleep is lost.

Meanwhile, you are feeling resentful - which in turn is negative energy and harmful to your well being. Just a thought.


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## Dyokemm

Zanne,

I don't feel resentful at all.

I truly don't give a da*n about them....they never cross my mind...and if someone or something brings them up, my simple response is 'Fu*k them."

They are truly dead to me, and I most assuredly don't waste a minute of my time thinking about them.

I just don't need to attach some fake, bs 'forgiveness' onto them.

No...I don't forgive them.

They are dead to me, but if circumstances or other people bring them to mind, I'm not going to live a lie and act like their sh*tty behavior is forgiven and in the past...they are pieces of filth and always will be in my book.


----------



## Zanne

Thanks for answering, Dyokemm. Forgiveness is more important for Christians so I understand why you're not concerned about that concept.

Sorry for the slight thread jack, jld. I found Dyokkem's commentary regarding the burning house scenario interesting and I couldn't resist prying.


----------



## Zanne

Incidentally, jld, about the article you posted... I think if you click through to the original version on Examiner, some of the points seem more feasible. Otherwise it's poor journalism and nothing I would base any theories on.


----------



## Pluto2

Zanne said:


> Thanks for answering, Dyokemm. Forgiveness is more important for Christians so I understand why you're not concerned about that concept..


And fidelity to one's spouse is also an important Christian belief.


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> Thanks for answering, Dyokemm. *Forgiveness is more important for Christians *so I understand why you're not concerned about that concept.
> 
> Sorry for the slight thread jack, jld. I found Dyokkem's commentary regarding the burning house scenario interesting and I couldn't resist prying.


Pretty sure remaining faithful to your spouse is one of those pesky covenants as well.


----------



## Dyokemm

lol...Pluto and Wolf, you guys are relentless.

I do agree with your point though.


----------



## Zanne

Pluto2 said:


> And fidelity to one's spouse is also an important Christian belief.





Wolf1974 said:


> Pretty sure remaining faithful to your spouse is one of those pesky covenants as well.


Oh, well.......I'm sure that I have compartmentalized those areas in my life.


----------



## Zanne

BTW, I'm not trying to mock any BS's here. This is a serious topic. (Although IRL, I tend to use humor to lighten moods.)

I like to dispel myths - and think outside the box. I will NEVER say, however, that one has a GOOD reason to cheat. Lots of reasons are given, but none that are noble.


----------



## thatbpguy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think the controversy comes because it seeks to define reasons that just don't hold up. Let's take the top reason why men cheat, sex. If that were true, then why aren't men seeking prostitutes rather than full blown affairs? If womens top reason is emotional intimacy, then why aren't they having EA's rather than PA's? It seeks to find neatly tied up packages of gender stereotypes to justify cheating which don't stand up to scrutiny. If she only had more sex with him, he wouldn't have cheated. If he only listened to her more, she wouldn't have cheated. Oddly, in all of these types of articles I have yet to see "poor decision making" as a reason and yet that's what infidelity is. It's like burning down your house because you hate your wall color.


Men do so for the sex as they like the chase and the kill. We're predators gy nature.

With women, they usually would just have an EA, but where men are concerned, sex comes with the territory.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> Why women cheat vs Why men cheat
> 
> Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons?
> 
> It seems on TAM that we want to lump the sexes together in ways that do not really help us understand them. Understanding is key to solving problems. Why the resistance?
> 
> It does not justify cheating for either sex. Is that the bottom line concern, that somehow cheating for women will be justified?


I think that individuals cheat for their own reasons. 

Some men cheat just for a variety of sexual partners. Some women cheat for the same thing. 

Some men cheat because their needs are not being met at home. Some women cheat for the same reasons.

while studies that statistically analysis the reasons people report for cheating are interesting, the results do not apply to individuals.

Each cheater really needs to figure out for themselves why they cheated.


----------



## Zanne

thatbpguy said:


> Men do so for the sex as they like the chase and the kill. We're predators gy nature.
> 
> *With women, they usually would just have an EA, but where men are concerned, sex comes with the territory.*


Maybe women would only be interested in an EA if they are getting sex at home.

Do you honestly believe that women don't like sex?? Geesh.....so many generalizations.


----------



## Zanne

EleGirl said:


> I think that individuals cheat for their own reasons.
> 
> Some men cheat just for a variety of sexual partners. Some women cheat for the same thing.
> 
> Some men cheat because their needs are not being met at home. Some women cheat for the same reasons.
> 
> while studies that statistically analysis the reasons people report for cheating are interesting, the results do not apply to individuals.
> 
> Each cheater really needs to figure out for themselves why they cheated.


:iagree: Yes, exactly this. Thank you, Elegirl.


----------



## thatbpguy

Zanne said:


> Maybe women would only be interested in an EA if they are getting sex at home.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that women don't like sex?? Geesh.....so many generalizations.


I neither said that or alluded to it.

And you know it.


----------



## jld

Zanne said:


> Incidentally, jld, about the article you posted... I think if you click through to the original version on Examiner, some of the points seem more feasible. Otherwise it's poor journalism and nothing I would base any theories on.


Is this the original, Zanne, that you read?

Top 10 reasons why men and women cheat - National infidelity | Examiner.com


----------



## Zanne

thatbpguy said:


> I neither said that or alluded to it.
> 
> And you know it.


I am speaking specifically to this part:



thatbpguy said:


> With women, they usually would just have an EA, but where men are concerned, *sex comes with the territory.*


So now us women have duty affair sex too??

I don't think so.


----------



## thatbpguy

Zanne said:


> I am speaking specifically to this part:
> 
> 
> So now us women have duty affair sex too??
> 
> I don't think so.


You have lost all your credibility with me. Please stop responding to my posts.


----------



## Zanne

jld said:


> Is this the original, Zanne, that you read?
> 
> Top 10 reasons why men and women cheat - National infidelity | Examiner.com



No, this is the link I read (from Examiner.com):

Why women cheat vs Why men cheat – They cheat for different reasons


----------



## Forest

Zanne said:


> No, this is the link I read (from Examiner.com):
> 
> Why women cheat vs Why men cheat – They cheat for different reasons


"They cheat for different reasons"

The part they leave out is that ALL the reasons are indefensible.


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> So you disagree with the article? It said it is based on research. You think the research is incomplete?



Since when is Cheaterville a reliable source?


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> Forgive? or Forget.... And what about Tears? If she was your wife, would you have forgiven her? Clearly she is as remorseful as any person could expect.


For many, some things are simply unforgivable. 

I'm cordial and civil with my stbxww, for the sake of my children. But I won't ever forgive her for what she did, and I don't feel the need to.


----------



## Healer

Women love sex just as much as men.


----------



## Healer

Dyokemm said:


> Zanne,
> 
> I don't feel resentful at all.
> 
> I truly don't give a da*n about them....they never cross my mind...and if someone or something brings them up, my simple response is 'Fu*k them."
> 
> They are truly dead to me, and I most assuredly don't waste a minute of my time thinking about them.
> 
> I just don't need to attach some fake, bs 'forgiveness' onto them.
> 
> No...I don't forgive them.
> 
> They are dead to me, but if circumstances or other people bring them to mind, I'm not going to live a lie and act like their sh*tty behavior is forgiven and in the past...they are pieces of filth and always will be in my book.


I love my children more than anything, and wouldn't change anything of the past, because I wouldn't have them if I didn't marry by stbxw. However, it is a curse in many ways - because I can't just X her from my life and forget about her. Those who have children with a wayward spouse are tied to that person and can't just wipe them and their memory away. It's awful really.

If I didn't have kids with her, I would have zero contact. She would evaporate from my consciousness. She wouldn't exist anymore. But I have to co-parent, and that means consistent contact, negotiations, planning, working together on some level. A curse.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Zanne said:


> Forgive? or Forget.... And what about Tears? If she was your wife, would you have forgiven her? Clearly she is as remorseful as any person could expect.


Ah, but what Tears and other truly repentant wayward wives who have posted here have shown--especially those that reconciled, but even those who did not--is that the rationalization of "emotional neglect" that the women use for justifying their cheating (to address the initial post) turned out not to be true or as bad as they made out during the affair. Once they reconcile, they confess that their husband wasn't as bad as they made out, or that they themselves had a hand in the emotional state of the marriage.

Therefore, it looks like the emotional "reasons" women give for having an affair are often re-written history to justify their transgressions.

(For those who haven't seen Tears' thread, she was a wife that cheated but had deep regret, owned her guilt, and begged forgiveness; and won the support of many posters)


----------



## Wolfman1968

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I understand what you are saying and if a husband went to a hooker, it would be true about sex, however a great deal of men do not. They seek an affair partner and develop feelings for her, thus jeopardizing the wifes position, sometimes even impregnating their affair partner. Same with a cheating wife. That's why I wrote that if the betrayers were honest about the "why" of their actions, it would more than likely be the new relationship feelings, the butterflies, the anticipation, etc. Otherwise men would minimize the risk and seek out escorts and women would with online affairs. That's just my observation reading around here/other places and my experiences in real life.


Although I largely agree with your conclusion (that the REAL reason is not what the cheaters state in the article), I am not sure that your explanation that men have prostitutes as an option is proof of that. In many jurisdictions, patronizing a prostitute would be a crime, and activist feminist groups are pushing for severe penalties, shaming, etc. to the customers ("johns"). Therefore, at least as far as legal penalties, an affair might be a better options in the eyes of many men.


----------



## OhGeesh

All I know is men cheat way more then women!! Even if the percetages are getting closer.....most women that do cheat it is emotional based 1 affair.

The guys I know that dabble are sleeping around with many women just booty calls. Most women "most" aren't into booty call type of philadering while whole business models are based on the exact preface that guys will cheat and cheat more than once. They are making money hand over fist!


----------



## Dyokemm

"The guys I know that dabble are sleeping around with many women just booty calls. Most women "most" aren't into booty call type of philadering while whole business models are based on the exact preface that guys will cheat and cheat more than once. They are making money hand over fist!"

The cheating men I have known about in my own experience are also similar to what you have seen...most of them were cheating with any willing female and it was only about the sex....in fact, I have only personally known of one guy who had an A based on 'love' who then went on to leave his BW and family to be with his AP.

But, then again, most of the WW I have known of were simple total cake eaters as well....never planning to leave their BH's and M's...just out for sex and fun on the side....and most of them were NOT one offs either.

The A's tended to last a little longer than the guys....fewer were into ONS's....but once the fun fizzled with one POSOM, they moved onto another.

This 'type' included my maternal grandmother who also brought the 'happy' result of an A child back to her M, which she never intended to leave.

I have known of 2 women who left their BH's and families for their AP's.

One of these was my paternal grandmother.

And I have personally seen cheaters of both genders in about equal numbers.

So my take on this is that, no matter what garbage excuses cheaters give for their horrible actions, most people (of both genders) who cheat are simply looking to enjoy new, exciting sex and adventure on the side, with no real intention of leaving their M's...instead they just selfishly act out thinking they will not get caught...and if they are they do as much damage control as necessary, beg and plead, and make far reaching promises to never do it again, which some of them even actually keep (as far as I know).

I don't know if I buy this whole 'big difference' between cheaters of opposite genders.

Maybe there are differences between men and women on WHY they get so unhappy in the M...different pre-A complaints....but their actions IN the A and what they seek from it seem to be very similar, regardless of gender.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Why women cheat vs Why men cheat
> 
> Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons?


Its not.

What is controversial is saying that women should be forgiven and men not so much.



> It does not justify cheating for either sex. Is that the bottom line concern, that somehow cheating for women will be justified?


You did justify it. Here is what you said in the "Had enough of the wife" thread with regards to how you'd recommend second chances due to why you feel is the reason men and women cheat.



jld said:


> I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.



You are already on record as saying you'd recommend taking back a cheating wife as long as the man is ready to meet her deepest emotional needs. Translation: the woman cheated because the man pushed her to it, and he needs to swallow his pride and service her.

Whereas you don't recommend taking back a cheating man.

THAT is what is controversial, and your mindset:

Man cheats = fickle dirty dog. Shouldn't be given a 2nd chance (and I don't disagree)

Woman cheats = man's fault, and he needs to take her back


----------



## JCD

Pluto2 said:


> Doesn't change much of my response. Yes the "arsonist" burned down his/her own house. But also the arsonist frequently burned down the OM or OW's house in the process. Nor does it change the fact that the arsonist chose to light the match while the occupants, particularly any children involved were blindsided. I don't disagree that some, or even many, cheaters have guilt after the fact, I just disagree with the assertion that the cheater is the most injured.
> 
> [edit] And I acknowledge this is a bit off the original topic so I'll stop


I think one of the 'quibbles' here is the arsonist with malice aforethought sprinkled a 5 gallon can of gas around the house (making sure to get a lot on the BS) and then, giggling like a maniac, lit a match as she slipped out the door with her bags packed.

While I agree that SOMETIMES that is how it happens, in many instances, it is the WS making spitting out vodka fireballs with someone cute and the curtains catch fire...and then the moulding...and then the rest...

Now, yes, they shouldn't have been engaging in such antics in the first place. And in many MANY marriages, such antics didn't lead to the house being burned down...but it was still dangerous behavior. Because that is part of human nature.

I would submit to you that this prospect is incredibly distressing to the BS. That something so beautiful and precious could be destroyed by a lack of attention or a mistake. See drunk driving! It is just as deadly if not more so...and again, someone making poor choices.

But at the end of the day, it's a choice. Vodka fireballs, slamming down that next Tom Collins, shooting your Christmas bb gun at a metal object. All choices which end up harming more then anticipated


----------



## JCD

jld

If we are going by 'research', research tends to show that as soon as his hearth and home are threatened by his affair, the man tends to drop the OW like a hot rock.

A woman in an affair tends to walk out the door for her 'happily ever after'.

If we accept this as hypothetically true, how does this modify your suggested advice to whom to take back and whom to 'drop', jld?

Please note, I am not 100% sure of this, and appreciate elegirl's post of individuality, but lets assume for the sake of argument.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> You are already on record as saying you'd recommend taking back a cheating wife as long as the man is ready to meet her deepest emotional needs. Translation: the woman cheated because the man pushed her to it, and he needs to swallow his pride and service her.
> 
> Whereas you don't recommend taking back a cheating man.
> 
> THAT is what is controversial, and your mindset:
> 
> Man cheats = fickle dirty dog. Shouldn't be given a 2nd chance (and I don't disagree)
> 
> Woman cheats = man's fault, and he needs to take her back


False. No one has to take back anyone. We have no fault in this country. Anyone can divorce at any time.

But the reality is that some people are going to take back a cheater. 

If your wife cheated once, and is completely remorseful, and you find out what made her seek out the other guy, and you think you can meet her deepest emotional needs, I think it might work. Anything less is shaky, and may not be worth the time.

If a man cheats because he just wants sexual variety, I think the odds for success are slimmer. However, some women have stayed with cheaters, and it works out. Reformed Hubby changed, as did Hope1964's husband, so it is not impossible.

You did read the thread that said that women are seven times more likely to take back a cheating man then vice versa, right? I hardly think men are at a disadvantage in this area, vell.


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> jld
> 
> If we are going by 'research', research tends to show that as soon as his hearth and home are threatened by his affair, the man tends to drop the OW like a hot rock.
> 
> A woman in an affair tends to walk out the door for her 'happily ever after'.
> 
> If we accept this as hypothetically true, how does this modify your suggested advice to whom to take back and whom to 'drop', jld?
> 
> Please note, I am not 100% sure of this, and appreciate elegirl's post of individuality, but lets assume for the sake of argument.


If the woman can handle watching him like a hawk, and contacting the OW every time, okay. Doesn't bother Hillary, I guess. Didn't bother my oldest sister, either. She was determined to stay with her husband. It was always the OW's fault, you know. Never her husband's.

I could not do it. I am not wired to do anything other than trust my husband completely. The whole idea of using control techniques on him is foreign to me.

But I am sure my husband would not let me go easily. And I would not want to cheat on him. I would hate myself and I do not want to have that on my conscience. He is good and kind to me, and he deserves the best from me. I try to give that, and I apologize when I don't.

I am sure he would forgive me, though. I am sure he would be very strict, and there would be consequences. But he sees me as belonging to him, and he would not throw away what is his.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> False. No one has to take back anyone.


No shyte. This doesn't absolve you of what you said.




> If your wife cheated once, and is completely remorseful, and you find out what made her seek out the other guy, and you think you can meet her deepest emotional needs, I think it might work. Anything less is shaky, and may not be worth the time.


You don't get it do you? You hesitate to recommend a woman take back a cheating man, but recommend taking back a cheating woman because it was the man's fault to begin with.





> If a man cheats because he just wants sexual variety, I think the odds for success are slimmer.


Doesn't matter what YOU think the odds are. If for some stupid reason a woman should be taken back because her guessed reasons were emotional needs, and you think the man should fill them, then why not take the man back and fulfill his sexual needs? Oh, that's right, because he's a man




> You did read the thread that said that women are seven times more likely to take back a cheating man then vice versa, right? I hardly think men are at a disadvantage in this area, vell.


I'm not commenting on what actually happens. I'm commenting on your mindset. Man cheats, his fault, woman cheats, still the mans fault.
Man cheats, don't take him back and meet his "needs". Woman cheats, take her back, swallow pride, and meet her "needs" so she doesn't do it again.


----------



## jld

If his sexual need is for a variety of women, how does she fulfill that?

I do not support a woman's not having sex with her husband. I think men need it. I am certainly not a withholder myself.

I think men have a lot of power over women. You seem to think women have a lot of power over men.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> If the woman can handle watching him like a hawk, and contacting the OW every time, okay. Doesn't bother Hillary, I guess. Didn't bother my oldest sister, either. She was determined to stay with her husband. It was always the OW's fault, you know. Never her husband's.
> 
> I could not do it. I am not wired to do anything other than trust my husband completely. The whole idea of using control techniques on him is foreign to me.
> 
> *But I am sure my husband would not let me go easily. * And I would not want to cheat on him. I would hate myself and I do not want to have that on my conscience. He is good and kind to me, and he deserves the best from me. I try to give that, and I apologize when I don't.
> 
> *I am sure he would forgive me*, though. I am sure he would be very strict, and there would be consequences. But he sees me as belonging to him, and he would not throw away what is his.


He wouldn't throw you away. He'd keep you around, because you are his possession. Sounds romantic.


----------



## vellocet

OhGeesh said:


> All I know is men cheat way more then women!! Even if the percetages are getting closer.....most women that do cheat it is emotional based 1 affair.
> 
> The guys I know that dabble are sleeping around with many women just booty calls. Most women "most" aren't into booty call type of philadering


Wow, and to think all these women they are cheating with are not into booty calls.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jld said:


> Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons?
> 
> It seems on TAM that we want to lump the sexes together in ways that do not really help us understand them. Understanding is key to solving problems. Why the resistance?


I don't think it's really more unhelpful than controversial. 
It's not helpful to lump the sexes together, it's also not helpful to lump billions together just because of they are the same gender.


----------



## staystrong

Well, to throw a wrench in here..

Athol Kay, the much vaunted MMSLP author suggests that you never take back a physically cheating wife. 

However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.

And if she's in love with you, and you are having sex frequently, it's very rare that she will cheat. She will reject other men because she feels complete with you. She may ogle at some guy on the street or enjoy a light flirt, but she would put her hand up to anyone who tries to pursue her. Possibly also because you know her intimately and she would be afraid you'd discover. 

Just a theory.


----------



## russell28

staystrong said:


> Well, to throw a wrench in here..
> 
> Athol Kay, the much vaunted MMSLP author suggests that you never take back a physically cheating wife.
> 
> However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.
> 
> And if she's in love with you, and you are having sex frequently, it's very rare that she will cheat. She will reject other men because she feels complete with you. She may ogle at some guy on the street or enjoy a light flirt, but she would put her hand up to anyone who tries to pursue her. Possibly also because you know her intimately and she would be afraid you'd discover.
> 
> Just a theory.


This theory assumes way to much. It assumes all women are going to be first mate to the captain all the time for a lifetime and never let that light flirt turn into a not as light flirt, and then a heavier flirt and so on..

His scenario is absurd. He thinks he's a captain and his wife is his first mate.. Meanwhile, his wife is probably sleeping with Isaac the bartender and he has no clue, because he's convinced he found the cure to cheating. I have some advice for him from my experienc.. If you think you know how to stop a woman from cheating, you're a fool. Only she can stop herself, you can't do anything about it. If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way captain. If she stops finding you sexy, you can't control that either.. pound your chest harder, get a chin implant.. (within reason, don't let yourself go) if she decides that she wants to cross boundaries with someone else, and gives herself permission.. then you're screwed, even if you're captain alpha.


----------



## loyallad

However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.

And insubordination is a court martial offense. Guess I should make WW walk the plank.


----------



## russell28

loyallad said:


> However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.
> 
> And insubordination is a court martial offense. Guess I should make WW walk the plank.


He's basically saying that marriage isn't 50/50 effort, that it's on the husband 100% to keep his wife in line. He has to be attractive to her at all times, and supply her with sex as she needs, in the exact quantity and quality that she needs, or she will stray. He's supposed to be the captain, but he's running in circles to please his wife to make sure she stays happy so she won't cheat. That sounds beta.. He should walk the plank for being a weak captain.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> If his sexual need is for a variety of women, how does she fulfill that?
> 
> I do not support a woman's not having sex with her husband. I think men need it. I am certainly not a withholder myself.
> 
> I think men have a lot of power over women. You seem to think women have a lot of power over men.


So...a man should examine the reasons a wife cheated in depth and determine what to do by examining how he failed her needs...but a woman should not examine any failures on her part? Because it seems that the presumption you are making is that the man only seeks multiple partners. That the default is that the wife is already meeting her husbands sexual and emotional needs. This presumption really lets the woman off the hook.

Well, sister, let me tell you. I just got finished visiting a friend. It was pretty evident that the woman was NOT meeting his emotional needs. He certainly didn't look happy. But it was better than being alone. One of the trades many spouses make. And about three seconds on the 'Sex in Marriage' thread show that many women do NOT meet the men's sexual needs.

You are a large proponent of 'grace' as a edifying Christian principle. That everyone needs forgiveness of sins. How is it that women deserve it more than men? I am not questioning if that is a correct or incorrect attitude, but I am asking you to defend the position. When Christ forgave Zacchaeus, Zacchaeus was a tax farmer of Israel. He had the power to go in and take things with large numbers of thugs backing him up. He was a 'power' player. So it seems 'grace' is not and should not be based on 'power' dynamics.


----------



## loyallad

Russell my point was sarcastic.

You can be the best captain in the world. Some first mates have the morals of a goat.


----------



## Marduk

OhGeesh said:


> All I know is men cheat way more then women!! Even if the percetages are getting closer.....most women that do cheat it is emotional based 1 affair.


A couple things.

Because of social conditioning, men can raise in status with (some) other men by being promiscuous. This can cause pressure for men to claim conquests that they haven't made, or at least admit them more easily than women.

Women tend to view female promiscuity differently. So this can skew both the data and the anecdotal evidence making it look like women cheat more.

What also skews this kind of conversation is it usually focuses on those that HAVE cheated AFTER they've cheated.

Humans have very good centres in their brain for generating all kinds of good justifications for bad behaviour. Focusing on those justifications is like the old buddhist saying -- look at what I'm pointing at, not at my finger that's doing the pointing. So listening to the justifications is like watching the hamster spin on the wheel and tells you little if anything about why it happened.

The fact of the matter is that people cheat for all kinds of reasons. Sex, wanting to feel attractive, being paid attention to, thinking they can get away with it, or it being the third thursday of the month.

What I do find insightful is thinking about what people get from relationships... people tend to cheat with people that give them something they've been missing. For some, it may be an emotional connection because of distance or hurt in the marriage. For some, they may no longer feel attractive (and that might have nothing to do with the spouse). For some, it's simply that someone may be willing to have sex with them.

In these kinds of cases, the affair partner ONLY needs to provide what is missing. And this seems to be why people have affairs with people that seem to be beneath them... because if the spouse is giving them A and B but not C... the affair partner ONLY needs to provide C.

I know women that have cheated only for sex, and I know men that have cheated only to feel a connection. And I know people of both that have cheated only because they had the opportunity and thought they could get away with it.


----------



## JCD

russell28 said:


> He's basically saying that marriage isn't 50/50 effort, that it's on the husband 100% to keep his wife in line. He has to be attractive to her at all times, and supply her with sex as she needs, in the exact quantity and quality that she needs, or she will stray. He's supposed to be the captain, but he's running in circles to please his wife to make sure she stays happy so she won't cheat. That sounds beta.. He should walk the plank for being a weak captain.


Using that assumption, Athol Kay and jld are coming from the same base position: that infidelity and failure on the part of women are essentially the man's fault.

This, to me, is BS (and that isn't Betrayed Spouse). For all the aggressiveness of many of the more independent female posters, at least they own the fact that women are independent actors who should take responsibilities for their actions and not blame it on a man growing a gut, a woman not being mature enough or self aware enough to examine and communicate her darned emotional needs BEFORE she spreads her legs, etc.

However in Athol/jld land, it seems the woman is always a victim. Sorry, that isn't true. They may be vulnerable in ways, but they have power. Ask Eleanor of Aquitaine.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> So you disagree with the article? It said it is based on research. You think the research is incomplete?


The word "research" is a falsehood, but is used to give the article/study more credence than it deserves.

How was the information gathered, by interviewing cheaters.

How many cheaters are so introspective and remorseful to give the TRUTH to why they cheated. 

You won't hear answers like "I have poor self esteem and seek "opposite gender" validation, so when any decent looking "opposite sex" person pursues me hard enough....I cave."

You'll hear justifications or non-indepth reasons such as "He didn't give me enough intimacy" or "I just wanted more sex".

And yet you hear countless stories about BH's who saw their WW's pulling away and they tried harder etc. and BW's who gave their WH's sex multiple times per week in different ways.

The number one reason for both genders is 'I get a thrill from a third party giving me validation and I'm selfish and put my desires and thrills ahead of the responsibility for my spouse and family."


----------



## Healer

JCD said:


> That something so beautiful and precious could be destroyed by a lack of attention or a mistake.


Cheating is neither a "lack of attention" or a "mistake". Minimization at its worst.


----------



## michzz

jld said:


> For sure, I do not think cheating is "okay." I think it really hurts a lot of people, probably the cheater most of all. They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience.
> 
> Though, like karole said, some people may not have much of a conscience.





Pluto2 said:


> You're going to stir a lot of pots asserting that the cheater is hurt more than the betrayed, a premise I don't share. So don't be surprised by the responses you get.





jld said:


> Okay. You do get that they have to carry that around their whole lives, right? That they made the choice that set the house on fire?





Pluto2 said:


> Yes. But -using your analogy- is the arsonist hurt more than the folks that were burned inside the house?


I think those people who get infected with an STD and have to pay their cheating ex a huge sum of money every month as "support" would disagree with the premise that a cheater is harmed most by their cheating ways. and not having a conscience, they suffer not.


----------



## vellocet

Threads like this remind me why I am going to stay single.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> False. No one has to take back anyone. We have no fault in this country. Anyone can divorce at any time.
> 
> But the reality is that some people are going to take back a cheater.
> 
> If your wife cheated once, and is completely remorseful, and you find out what made her seek out the other guy, and you think you can meet her deepest emotional needs, I think it might work. Anything less is shaky, and may not be worth the time.
> 
> If a man cheats because he just wants sexual variety, I think the odds for success are slimmer. However, some women have stayed with cheaters, and it works out. Reformed Hubby changed, as did Hope1964's husband, so it is not impossible.
> 
> You did read the thread that said that women are seven times more likely to take back a cheating man then vice versa, right? I hardly think men are at a disadvantage in this area, vell.


Actually no, not false. Everything he said was bang on, and he had your own quote to back it up.

Again - your post is way off. It's sexist and is putting the onus solely on the betrayed husband. 

"...and you find out what made her seek out the other guy, and you think you can meet her deepest emotional needs..."

AGAIN you are straight up saying it's the betrayed husband's fault she cheated and his responsibility to change his ways in order to get her back. It's rather nauseating.


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> Well, to throw a wrench in here..
> 
> Athol Kay, the much vaunted MMSLP author suggests that you never take back a physically cheating wife.
> 
> However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.
> 
> And if she's in love with you, and you are having sex frequently, it's very rare that she will cheat. She will reject other men because she feels complete with you. She may ogle at some guy on the street or enjoy a light flirt, but she would put her hand up to anyone who tries to pursue her. Possibly also because you know her intimately and she would be afraid you'd discover.
> 
> Just a theory.


This Kay is full of ****.


----------



## russell28

JCD said:


> Using that assumption, Athol Kay and jld are coming from the same base position: that infidelity and failure on the part of women are essentially the man's fault.
> 
> This, to me, is BS (and that isn't Betrayed Spouse). For all the aggressiveness of many of the more independent female posters, at least they own the fact that women are independent actors who should take responsibilities for their actions and not blame it on a man growing a gut, a woman not being mature enough or self aware enough to examine and communicate her darned emotional needs BEFORE she spreads her legs, etc.
> 
> However in Athol/jld land, it seems the woman is always a victim. Sorry, that isn't true. They may be vulnerable in ways, but they have power. Ask Eleanor of Aquitaine.


Exactly.. I didn't marry Gilligan.. I thought marriage was like co-piloting, not me having to run the entire ship while my first mate bumbles around tripping over themselves.

People like this think that a big strong man needs to control the poor little weak woman. They are bait to be manipulated by a strong woman that likes a weak man to manipulate.


----------



## russell28

michzz said:


> I think those people who get infected with an STD and have to pay their cheating ex a huge sum of money every month as "support" would disagree with the premise that a cheater is harmed most by their cheating ways. and not having a conscience, they suffer not.


No doubt.. also, this line:

_"They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience. "_

Many WS get right over it, convince themselves it was all for the best and move on. Many BS struggle with it for life.

This is why it's important to make good choices in life, so you don't have to bear the consequences. 

I bet most here that have remained faithful to a spouse, when tested and confronted with temptation, used the fear of consequences as one of the tools to keep themselves and the marriage safe. 

"What would my children think, how could I destroy my spouse like that, *how could I live with myself*". Thoughts that run through a loyal BS' brain when someone is asking them back to their apartment for lunch.


----------



## loyallad

michzz said:


> I think those people who get infected with an STD and have to pay their cheating ex a huge sum of money every month as "support" would disagree with the premise that a cheater is harmed most by their cheating ways. and not having a conscience, they suffer not.


Whether any of that happens and yes sometimes that is the case, the BS is always harmed more than the WS. Cheating is the result of selfish behavior. Selfishness is the opposite of love. A WS is not thinking of anyone else except themselves when they have an A. The BS is blindsided by all this. Their world as they knew it is forever changed.

I could have handled my WW wanting out of our marriage if things were "so bad". I can also deal with her not being in love with me. Never once did she come to me with we have a big problem and need to work on it. Or I don't love you anymore and I want out. Nope none of that. Instead she got all wrapped up in some POS little world, bought all his crap about how his W didn't love him and how he wished he had met my W before he was married and all that other bulls*#t. Yeah I see how the A has hurt her. And I don't want to hear how I didn't meet her emotional needs. The woman has zero affection even before we married. Said that's just the way she is.


----------



## JCD

russell28 said:


> No doubt.. also, this line:
> 
> _"They bear the consequences their whole lives. They have it on their conscience. "_
> 
> Many WS get right over it, convince themselves it was all for the best and move on. Many BS struggle with it for life.
> 
> This is why it's important to make good choices in life, so you don't have to bear the consequences.
> 
> I bet most here that have remained faithful to a spouse, when tested and confronted with temptation, used the fear of consequences as one of the tools to keep themselves and the marriage safe.
> 
> "What would my children think, how could I destroy my spouse like that, *how could I live with myself*". Thoughts that run through a loyal BS' brain when someone is asking them back to their apartment for lunch.


I am diffident on this. On the one hand, shame and fear of consequences is and should be part of a person's emotional package. It keeps them from acting very poorly indeed.

However, once done, it is not emotionally healthy to dwell forever on one's bad actions and continually beat oneself up. One can take the sociopath route and deny ever doing anything wrong, but that isn't healthy (though distressingly more common these days)

Instead, one needs to acknowledge the ability to act badly, let go of scarring amounts of guilt but acknowledge that one did harm, is capable of doing harm, and swearing to oneself to avoid doing harm again. Admit you did horrible harm to someone, make what amends you can...and get on with life.

This is called 'growth' in some circles.


----------



## vellocet




----------



## Marduk

loyallad said:


> Whether any of that happens and yes sometimes that is the case, the BS is always harmed more than the WS. Cheating is the result of selfish behavior. Selfishness is the opposite of love. A WS is not thinking of anyone else except themselves when they have an A. The BS is blindsided by all this. Their world as they knew it is forever changed.


True, at _that_ moment in time.

I was devastated when I found out my ex cheated on me.

However, I became stronger, picked a better mate, and made a great life out of it. My ex is still single, childless, and alone.

My ex gave me a gift: a free exit out of the marriage.


----------



## Healer

JCD said:


> I am diffident on this. On the one hand, shame and fear of consequences is and should be part of a person's emotional package. It keeps them from acting very poorly indeed.
> 
> However, once done, it is not emotionally healthy to dwell forever on one's bad actions and continually beat oneself up. One can take the sociopath route and deny ever doing anything wrong, but that isn't healthy (though distressingly more common these days)
> 
> Instead, one needs to acknowledge the ability to act badly, let go of scarring amounts of guilt but acknowledge that one did harm, is capable of doing harm, and swearing to oneself to avoid doing harm again. Admit you did horrible harm to someone, make what amends you can...and get on with life.
> 
> This is called 'growth' in some circles.


That's fair enough. The WS who can do that - the acknowledgement part - that's good. I think I'm seeing some of that with my stbwx. I believe she is genuinely remorseful and is _trying_ to be a better person.

Gawd, can't wait till I can take the "stb" off of stbxw. Any day now!


----------



## loyallad

I agree marduk the BS can either dwell on the A and the actions of the WS forever or they can decide the A and their WS actions are not going to define their life. Would true remorse by WS help this you bet. The truth is a lot of WS don't have that in them. To accept full responsibility would be admitting a lack of morals and character issues. Most WS find it easier to at least shift some of the blame to the BS. We live in a world where pride and vanity trump doing the right thing.


----------



## IIJokerII

Although the question of this thread is based upon gender, men vs women, the answer in invariably the same; Because they can and will and their immediate want is rationalized into becoming a need.

Think about it, how often does one say screw it, I'll pay that xyz bill late as I WANT to go out this Saturday or but some materialistic object. With a little pressure at most and just the right frame of mind one will do what one want's and then rationalize it later.

A man goes out or whatever and engages with someone who he thinks is attractive and eventually the "Fog" sets in and the primal need takes over. If a generally nice guy has his wife present he'll not even progress the thought to expression as his wife is present to dissuade even a little temptation.

Although most women will argue but the logic is near identical. She'll know full well what she is doing is wrong but will engage anyway, either slow and timid or swiftly, careful rationalizing her decision as she goes, or even before. 

Both sexes use the word "Lack(ing)" to describe their primary reason, lack of sex, attention, financial security or whatever else one will say. 

The attention example; Couple that usually have to work most of the time for whatever choices that befell them end up falling into the "You were never there for" Catergory and complain, and justify, that since their spouse wasn't there (Checked out) that he/she felt lonely and justified. Never mind the BS had no idea about his/her dissatisfaction. The relationship then begins to fall apart because;

The Financial Example; Despite spending lots of quality time together the introduction of financial stress takes an insidious hold causing a strain. Most couples fight rather than work together but in time agree that more income is needed. Soon after, usually the Women, eventually strays as she needs to feel "Safe" financially regardless of the fact that she too is responsible for their situation.

Or

The Hackneyed aspect; I'm bored with you.......Nuff said

The MLC Aspect; Getting old sucks and what better way to fight that feeling than making it with someone younger, hotter or who shows interest in you. This is a 50/50 split as both men and women will often say how the novelty niceties (She laughed at my jokes) (He paid attention to me) was what made them feel alive. Ugh, I hate even typing it, but it is what it is.

Or it is the Natures paradigm; Listen people, we are here to do one thing only, procreate, nature did not intend for us to build cities, invent math and arts and American idol. These are merely side effects of having a large brain and the need for mental stimuli. Maybe it is really just that simple, procreate and spread the DNA for maximum malleability. I hope not but things do not look promising.

As I said, if you want to see this behavior come to an end reinstate the fault aspect in Divorces that make it so a WS loses everything and is barred from future rewards or earnings. After all, Name me one person who got caught embezzling or other misconduct and had the edacity to ask for his/her bonus check.


----------



## Marduk

IIJokerII said:


> Although the question of this thread is based upon gender, men vs women, the answer in invariably the same; Because they can and will and their immediate want is rationalized into becoming a need.


Agreed 100%.

Where I think people get caught up along gender lines is the justification _voiced_ for cheating, and the conscious decisions made.

Anecdotal evidence only, but I have the impression that most men decide _to_ cheat because they're not getting something, and most women cheat and then decide they _did_ because they're not getting something.

But maybe that's my skewed male perspective.


----------



## Pluto2

vellocet said:


>



But not all guys are like this.
I met a very nice man once
It was a Tuesday


----------



## learning to love myself

Wolf1974 said:


> But the point I think you are missing JLD is that many WS, men and women, don't carry around anything because they don't care.


I care! 

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't feel remorse for what I have done and although my husband tells me its been three years and we should start to move forward.

He will remind me of the hurt I have caused usually on a daily basis. For me I will always remember what I did and will cry for the pain I caused. 

It is my burden that I have to own.


----------



## IIJokerII

learning to love myself said:


> It is my burden that I have to own.


Although you are among the few who have, or can, recognize the aftermath that you are responsible for, all WS have to own it. You have just been humble enough to own it publicly while others, men and/or women, will fight tooth and nail to assign blame. 

One day, whenever it arrives, WS who choose the path you did not for ownership will eventually realized what they did. The only question is where they will be in life and who they are with when they do.


----------



## workindad

Speaking from my own experience only. My wife cheated because she wanted to. I would expect that to be pretty common after all the reasons are filtered out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## learning to love myself

IIJokerII said:


> Although you are among the few who have, or can, recognize the aftermath that you are responsible for, all WS have to own it. You have just been humble enough to own it publicly while others, men and/or women, will fight tooth and nail to assign blame.
> 
> One day, whenever it arrives, WS who choose the path you did not for ownership will eventually realized what they did. The only question is where they will be in life and who they are with when they do.


I like all cheaters felt justified when I decided to seek for a man to have sex with, I had told my husband I was very unhappy and that I needed him for years, when he still didn't have the desire to have sex with me.

I justified he wouldn't care as he had told me that sex isn't needed to have a good marriage.

From D-day forward I wasn't given a pass, I had to tell anyone and everyone what I did, including my sons. 

He now tells me to stop telling people when the question comes up. I find it hard to do, I have had 3 years of conditioning to own every aspect of my cheating, I cant just turn it off.


----------



## vellocet

workindad said:


> Speaking from my own experience only. My wife cheated because she wanted to. I would expect that to be pretty common after all the reasons are filtered out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And now you should give her the benefit of the doubt and meet all her needs to keep her from doing it again. Because afterall, its your fault.


----------



## IIJokerII

learning to love myself said:


> I like all cheaters felt justified when I decided to seek for a man to have sex with, I had told my husband I was very unhappy and that I needed him for years, when he still didn't have the desire to have sex with me.
> 
> I justified he wouldn't care as he had told me that sex isn't needed to have a good marriage.
> 
> From D-day forward I wasn't given a pass, I had to tell anyone and everyone what I did, including my sons.
> 
> He now tells me to stop telling people when the question comes up. I find it hard to do, I have had 3 years of conditioning to own every aspect of my cheating, I cant just turn it off.


If I may, why did you go forward the way you did by exposing yourself and owing your actions?

I ask because I am not experiencing even the slightest nth of any degree of this self awareness.


----------



## russell28

learning to love myself said:


> I justified he wouldn't care as he had told me that sex isn't needed to have a good marriage.


What did you say when he said sex wasn't needed to have a good marriage? That you thought it was important, it was so important to you that you would have to leave him and seek out someone that had similar beliefs? Or did you tell him that you would find someone else to have sex with, and he said "fine, do that"?


----------



## Served Cold

In order to be a cheater, male or female, the one thing they have in common is the ability to deceive. What this thread is really about is nit picking over stereotypes. 

Why do all trash bags cone in dark green? If trash bags came in pink or blue would the trash smell any better?


----------



## learning to love myself

IIJokerII said:


> If I may, why did you go forward the way you did by exposing yourself and owing your actions?
> 
> I ask because I am not experiencing even the slightest nth of any degree of this self awareness.


I had been the preacher of monogamy to friends and family, I could never understand how someone could rip apart their family in such a way.

Yes part of my righteous attitude was based on having parents that have been married 50+ years and watching my uncle parade his girlfriend in front of my aunt and children, to then come back and forth for years and to see her defend his sorry ass.

Then me myself being cheated on for 10 years, prior to marriage.

I never thought in a million years I would become that person. I will say that I had huge struggles in my marriage and my husband gave me at least 6 different opportunities to justifiably leave him. 

I never really acknowledged men's flirting but have always had very low self-esteem. 

My attitude toward my husband flipped like a switch one day, I saw him from different eyes, he only cared about his needs, I worked and he got to stay home and do nothing all day, then I got to come home and do it all.

Then you add no sex (for years) to the mix and his lack for acknowledging That I was unhappy even though I told him and It was the perfect storm. 

I remember a man picking up on me at a Starbucks and then it seemed like I was being hit on everywhere I went and truthfully I liked it, I felt like for the first time in a long time there are men who found me attractive. 

This led me to placing a personal ad and cheating. When D-day came and my husband found out, I lied and than lied more and then came his anger among other things. When he made me tell my children what I had done, It was like being hit over the head by a 2x4, it just snapped, I was just sick over it, I could not believe that me of all people could allow this to happen.

No matter how much my husband has made me own what I have done, My own guilt I feel cannot compare to anything else.


----------



## learning to love myself

russell28 said:


> What did you say when he said sex wasn't needed to have a good marriage? That you thought it was important, it was so important to you that you would have to leave him and seek out someone that had similar beliefs? Or did you tell him that you would find someone else to have sex with, and he said "fine, do that"?


He said that a lot to me and it wasn't needed for him as he was handling his own needs and had replaced me with porn. 

I told him I needed it as for me sex is a form of love and I have a very high drive. The only solution I remember him coming up with is to have a threesome and he would find a man to please me. I had told him no as I didn't think it was a good idea.

He tells me now that although I told him I was unhappy and needed more that he didn't know it had gotten to the extent of me cheating. 

It's my fault for not just leaving him instead of cheating.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

learning to love myself said:


> It's my fault for not just leaving him instead of cheating.


You didn't even have to leave. All you had to do was tell him that you considered yourself separated from him from this moment forward and would be seeking to have your sexual needs met by someone else, because he was adamantly refusing too. 

What he did with that information would have been up to him and there would have been no stain on your character whatsoever. 

You would have been a person of honesty and integrity, HE would be the person throwing away the marriage, not you.


----------



## Wolf1974

learning to love myself said:


> I care!
> 
> There isn't a day that goes by that I don't feel remorse for what I have done and although my husband tells me its been three years and we should start to move forward.
> 
> He will remind me of the hurt I have caused usually on a daily basis. For me I will always remember what I did and will cry for the pain I caused.
> 
> It is my burden that I have to own.


Then if you own all of it and don't make excuses, blame shift or hide behind something like religion to justify your actions then much respect for you. I hope your husband doesn't make you pay a life long emotional sentence for what happened


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> Oh, well.......I'm sure that I have compartmentalized those areas in my life.


More like hand picked things to justify cheating looks like


----------



## jld

learning to love myself said:


> My attitude toward my husband flipped like a switch one day, I saw him from different eyes, he only cared about his needs, I worked and he got to stay home and do nothing all day, then I got to come home and do it all.
> 
> Then you add no sex (for years) to the mix and his lack for acknowledging That I was unhappy even though I told him and It was the perfect storm.


Is he working now? Do you have sex now?


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Well, to throw a wrench in here..
> 
> Athol Kay, the much vaunted MMSLP author suggests that you never take back a physically cheating wife.
> 
> However, he's also said to some effect that men should take the responsibility for their wife cheating. He's the captain of the ship, and if he is steering correctly, the first mate will abide.
> 
> And if she's in love with you, and you are having sex frequently, it's very rare that she will cheat. She will reject other men because she feels complete with you. She may ogle at some guy on the street or enjoy a light flirt, but she would put her hand up to anyone who tries to pursue her. Possibly also because you know her intimately and she would be afraid you'd discover.
> 
> Just a theory.


I did not know this about him. I think he is right, though. I think, bottom line, men don't realize how much power they have over women. And all the sameness messages we get do not help that.

I think if the betrayed husbands here could see the power they really do have, or did have, they would heal faster. They would look at what they could do differently next time, instead of burning with resentment.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> I did not know this about him. I think he is right, though. I think, bottom line, men don't realize how much power they have over women. And all the sameness messages we get do not help that.
> 
> I think if the betrayed husbands here could see the power they really do have, or did have, they would heal faster. They would look at what they could do differently next time, instead of burning with resentment.


And if women had any idea of the power they had over the men in their lives, perhaps they wouldn't live these self imposed lives of quiet desperation they seem to feel they are saddled with.

Why is introspection only for men? I've had a lot of women in my life say frankly horrible and hurtful things without any kind of self awareness of what they said.

'Happy wife, happy life' is a axiom because it's true. Stop diminishing a woman's responsibility to make her OWN happiness. A woman marries a man, not a therapist to slay her inner demons.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> This theory assumes way to much. It assumes all women are going to be first mate to the captain all the time for a lifetime and never let that light flirt turn into a not as light flirt, and then a heavier flirt and so on..
> 
> His scenario is absurd. He thinks he's a captain and his wife is his first mate.. Meanwhile, his wife is probably sleeping with Isaac the bartender and he has no clue, because he's convinced he found the cure to cheating. I have some advice for him from my experienc.. If you think you know how to stop a woman from cheating, you're a fool. Only she can stop herself, you can't do anything about it. If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way captain. If she stops finding you sexy, you can't control that either.. pound your chest harder, get a chin implant.. (within reason, don't let yourself go) if she decides that she wants to cross boundaries with someone else, and gives herself permission.. then you're screwed, even if you're captain alpha.


You have heard that women are faithful to their affair partners, right? But that men are not? I am sure there are exceptions, but I have read this several times here.

If you do not want to do any of the work in a relationship, it is probably going to go downhill. Attraction has to be maintained. You cannot just extract a loyalty oath from her, aka marital vows, and assume it will hold for a lifetime. It might, but it may be wise to plan to put in some effort on your end, too.


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> And if women had any idea of the power they had over the men in their lives, perhaps they wouldn't live these self imposed lives of quiet desperation they seem to feel they are saddled with.
> 
> Why is introspection only for men? I've had a lot of women in my life say frankly horrible and hurtful things without any kind of self awareness of what they said.
> 
> 'Happy wife, happy life' is a axiom because it's true. Stop diminishing a woman's responsibility to make her OWN happiness. A woman marries a man, not a therapist to slay her inner demons.


Before stumbling across marriage boards a year ago, I did not realize men felt powerless in their marriages. I knew hardly anything about female dominants and male submissives. But TAM seems to have many of both.

I think men who blame women feel powerless in their relationships. I don't know if they are male submissives, but with all the power they give women, I wonder.

As'laDain posted an article a few months ago that said a third of men are submissive, and a third of women are dominant. That would explain this phenomenon of some men wanting to be cared for by their wives, and feeling so bitter when she does not. If she has the power, and therefore the responsibility, in the relationship, it is normal that there would be resentment when she does not take care of him the way he expects. 

I just was not familiar enough with this type of man, or had not looked at it enough before, to realize it, I guess.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jld, if you could briefly tell me your story. Have you ever had a problem with adultery or at the very least an inappropriate relationship? 

Was there a personal issue that brought you here?

I'm trying to figure out how in the span of 9 months (less than one year) you could have more than 7,000 posts.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> You have heard that women are faithful to their affair partners, right? But that men are not? I am sure there are exceptions, but I have read this several times here.
> 
> If you do not want to do any of the work in a relationship, it is probably going to go downhill. Attraction has to be maintained. You cannot just extract a loyalty oath from her, aka marital vows, and assume it will hold for a lifetime. It might, but it may be wise to plan to put in some effort on your end, too.


I heard that.. I also know that my wife and I had sex all the time, or I would have been more suspicious of her having an AP.

I won't list all the 'work' I did in the relationship vs. what 'work' she was doing in the relationship, it's not worth the time. We were both working fine until she started getting flirty with guy in work. That seemed to magnify all the normal little marriage problems into big deal breakers. You make it sound as if the BS is always some fat lazy drunk that does nothing and the wife is some angelic slave that eventually snaps and seeks out help in the arms of a loving stranger. Meanwhile in another thread you're telling Zanne it's all cool that she cheated her husband, because she got married young and he's not strong.


----------



## IIJokerII

JCD said:


> And if women had any idea of the power they had over the men in their lives, perhaps they wouldn't live these self imposed lives of quiet desperation they seem to feel they are saddled with.
> 
> Why is introspection only for men? I've had a lot of women in my life say frankly horrible and hurtful things without any kind of self awareness of what they said.
> 
> 'Happy wife, happy life' is a axiom because it's true. Stop diminishing a woman's responsibility to make her OWN happiness. A woman marries a man, not a therapist to slay her inner demons.


This is IMO the most accurate aspect of acknowledgement regard most problems regarding a straying Wife in a marriage is the mans inability to recognize his Wife's problems. 

It appears the social expectation of men making their woman happy has actually caused the opposite effect that was desired. Men were challenged to acknowledge their mate, spouse, and to hear her complaints, concerns, suggestions and whatever other conversational conflict they introduced. 

We, for the most part obliged and due to the insidious nature of this relationship dynamic eventually graduated to doormat, butler caretaker man. Most will state that it is the old Alpha/Beta aspect of the relationship. Maybe, But with Women pushing as a group for equals in all areas where men were the prominent figure I.E; Industry, law, politics, etc., I do not believe this to be the case. 

I feel most women just do not know what truly makes them happy and have been pressured into a contradicting way of thinking. If she is a stay at home mother, she is not fulfilling her duty as an independent woman and setting a bad example. If she works to the extreme going full career mode she is not a very good mother example as she is putting the family second. 

Regardless, a man can only react and those that don't should be challenged or released from a relationship depending on what the women wants. I, we (Men), are not the in house psychiatrist. We should not be depended on or expected to fulfill this need. Although we should be told there is a problem.

Aso, if a car runs, drives and does what it is expected to, I do not have a problem, if the check engine light comes on I do not care as long as I get where I need to without incident and deserve to get stuck on the side of the road for ignoring the warning. But if the car just up and explodes without warning, you most often will chide the car saying "Well, if I knew it was gonna.... I would have fixed it".


----------



## jld

I think most women (2/3?) want a man who is dominant, but unselfishly so. 

She wants your love and care and understanding, She also wants you to say No to her when it is in her best interests. 

Have you heard the expression, "iron hand in a velvet glove?"


----------



## BostonBruins32

JLD, you're 100% right. dominant in an unselfish way. I would add protective to this.

The issue is striking the perfect balance. Become too protective, and you're possessive. Become too dominant, and you're abusive. Become too unselfish, and you're a doormat. 

I find that cheaters (women or men) are very good at convincing themselves that thier spouse was too ____ . So while we strive for this perfect balance as you m entioned, it can slip real easy.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Meanwhile in another thread you're telling Zanne it's all cool that she cheated her husband, because she got married young and he's not strong.


I never said it was cool. I think affairs are very hurtful.

I think Zanne, and every cheater, is weak. Punish them if you have to, or if they want it (to forgive themselves), but do not think you have to throw them away. You have a right to, of course, but you are not obliged to.

And if they leave you, let them go. You were not what they needed. And they were obviously not what you need.

And really try to see your own hand in what went wrong, even if it was just picking the wrong person. Don't end up in the same situation, just with a different person.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> I think most women (2/3?) want a man who is dominant, but unselfishly so.
> 
> She wants your love and care and understanding, She also wants you to say No to her when it is in her best interests.
> 
> Have you heard the expression, "iron hand in a velvet glove?"


good gosh.
I am a woman and I've never heard such an offensive characterization of my entire gender.
Women are not children and do not want or need their partner to parent them.
Intelligent women want an equal partner.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> good gosh.
> I am a woman and I've never heard such an offensive characterization of my entire gender.
> Women are not children and do not want or need their partner to parent them.
> Intelligent women want an equal partner.


The truth of the matter is that different women want different things. Some want a dominant male, some want a submissive male, and some want an equal partner.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> I think most women (2/3?) want a man who is dominant, but unselfishly so.
> 
> She wants your love and care and understanding, She also wants you to say No to her when it is in her best interests.
> 
> Have you heard the expression, "iron hand in a velvet glove?"


Under no pretense of being a sexist pig please allow me to retort.

If women so called wanted a dominant man then the end result of "You never paid me any attention or took my needs into consideration" would never come up, although you could rationalize this as the remaining third who do not prefer submission to her husband. 

She may want my love and understanding but as advertised is still the best way to perceive ones intent. If she says jump, I am going to look at her puzzled and bemused as I deny this request. She says that by me working more to afford that new van or kitchen upgrade she has now rendered silent and argument of me not being available to show her attention or take her out to enjoy some R&R due to lack of time and money. This also applies to housing and family needs as well.

As I am not a woman nor do I have the chemical make up to per say think like one I do know that I, and most people, do not like hearing no when we have our hearts set on something, no matter what it is, this forum being a prime example (Infidelity) not with standing. If she wants me to say no just to instigate a conflict, which it will at some level, this is not the behavior of an adult. I can't ask my boss for a raise and then get told no in whatever manner and get angry or resentful even though yes or no are the only 2 answers to this question. Putting my own expectations of a pedestal only to know that they will be knocked down is just a way of introducing conflict where no needs to be.

As for the iron hand in a velvet glove thing, I am at a loss really. This is akin to me dealing with dandruff by decapitation. Not necessarily overkill in comparison but not very productive either.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> The truth of the matter is that different women want different things. Some want a dominant male, some want a submissive male, and some want an equal partner.


Yes, different women want different things, which is why I don't understand why you believe most women cheat as a result of unmet emotional needs and men cheat for sex.

I continue to disagree with your stated belief that 2/3 of women want a "dominant" man. Where did you come up with that, or is it just your belief?


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> The truth of the matter is that different women want different things. Some want a dominant male, some want a submissive male, and some want an equal partner.


Yes women are different, but they, like men, take the same approach to indifference and confliction like anyone, or everyone, else does; They rationalize to the plateau level of self acceptance. 

In spite of their best effort nearly all parents will experience the conflicting feelings of administering discipline to their children as well as boundaries to keep their best interests in mind. Parents feel hypocritical in doing so as they remember the same arguments with their parents but from a different point of view and end user goal. In the end parents rationalize that what they are doing is what's best for them overall, not their children per se. Parents want their kids to be successful and independent, but if they are not able to fit the mold and veer of course of the "Parental plan" they will eventually here the speech that parents give about giving everything to their children that they never had.

Children thru adulthood will struggle trying to meet a standard, not a goal, that parents set for them who often hold nothing back when they address their children's short coming, mistakes or failures. This leaves a permanent impression upon them of not being good enough until this resentment is accepted as a fact and they begin to abandon their hopes and dreams to fit the mold. Sure they are better off according to societies standards and with this they rationalize this to being successful which must equal happy.

Self justification in any relationship, especially marriage, will collapse any bond in an instant. Add in rationalization and hindsight excuses and you then have yielded the power to change the lives of several people forever. This is not a man or women issue, it is a character issue, I believe. Marriage's can work but that it what they are work. If you don't show up to work expect to not get paid and/or fired.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> And really try to see your own hand in what went wrong, even if it was just picking the wrong person. Don't end up in the same situation, just with a different person.


This is an impossible task as I am sure that most women and men would run in terror if presented a 500 page questioner for approval. 

As for self awareness in what went wrong, it is often confusing enough to be punished due to ignorance but even more so and emotionally damaging to be punished for doing what is perceived as a good job.

Discovering the secret of me spouses infidelity is shocking enough but the trauma sets in when you are told that your every action to meet her requests or demands is what made her hurt you in the most imaginable way!!!


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Yes, different women want different things, which is why I don't understand why you believe most women cheat as a result of unmet emotional needs and men cheat for sex.
> 
> I continue to disagree with your stated belief that 2/3 of women want a "dominant" man. Where did you come up with that, or is it just your belief?


As'laDain posted an article on it a few months ago.

Read the article in the first post of this thread about why men cheat v. why women cheat.


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> This is an impossible task as I am sure that most women and men would run in terror if presented a 500 page questioner for approval.
> 
> As for self awareness in what went wrong, it is often confusing enough to be punished due to ignorance but even more so and emotionally damaging to be punished for doing what is perceived as a good job.
> 
> Discovering the secret of me spouses infidelity is shocking enough but the trauma sets in when you are told that your every action to meet her requests or demands is what made her hurt you in the most imaginable way!!!


I know it is hard. But we have to look at what went wrong to avoid it in the future.

I know every BH here feels he did a good job. And maybe he did. But something went wrong, right? If it were me, I would want to look at that. Even if it were humbling and painful.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> I know it is hard. But we have to look at what went wrong to avoid it in the future.
> 
> I know every BH here feels he did a good job. And maybe he did. But something went wrong, right? If it were me, I would want to look at that. Even if it were humbling and painful.


Yes, the girl I expected to be truthful, loyal and committed to me made a choice. No further research is needed. We can only govern our own free will.


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, the girl I expected to be truthful, loyal and committed to me made a choice. No further research is needed. We can only govern our own free will.


Well that makes it easy for you.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> As'laDain posted an article on it a few months ago.
> 
> Read the article in the first post of this thread about why men cheat v. why women cheat.


Your conflicting posts make it difficult to follow your train of thought here.

In response to my post you assert that different people want different things, yet you still assert that the reasons for infidelity can be divided based on gender. This pretty much negates your stated response to me that different people want different things. And this is because someone wrote an article? You challenge opinions of people who post, but why not challenge the authors of an article?


----------



## loyallad

Originally Posted by IIJokerII 
Yes, the girl I expected to be truthful, loyal and committed to me made a choice. No further research is needed. We can only govern our own free will.


jld said:


> Well that makes it easy for you.


Appears to me the WS chose the easy way. Instead of introspective of what's wrong with the marriage and can it be fixed, the WS just chose the selfish path.

Could I have done some thing different or better in my own marriage, yeah? Everybody can say that. We're all human, not perfect beings. And you know what if I was perfect all the time my WW would use that as an excuse for her A.

A lot of people on here see their shortcomings and most probably have their regrets. Just don't try to justify a WS having an A because the BS in some sort of backhanded way caused it.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I know it is hard. But we have to look at what went wrong to avoid it in the future.
> 
> I know every BH here feels he did a good job. And maybe he did. But something went wrong, right? If it were me, I would want to look at that. Even if it were humbling and painful.


Would you look at that if you were a women, or only if you're a man? Should the woman also look at it? You say "he"... 

So would you look at what 'he' did wrong, or what you did wrong?


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Well that makes it easy for you.


Subtle way of saying, you're male, must have been your failure to keep her happy. You're in denial about not meeting her deepest emotional needs. 

Figured I'd translate for anyone that didn't get the subtlety of it.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> Well that makes it easy for you.


If I were to simplify things yes it is easy. But alas, the resonating effects will last a lifetime as I now have 3 children toed forever to a person who decided to introduce chaos and discontent to an already stressful situation called family living. Under no circumstance can one say that "One day, when I am taxed to the limit on life's challenges I think I'd like to be traumatized and gas lit to the point of total breakdown.!!!!!"

Compounded is the fact from those involved is the responsibility of the materials involved from housing to cars to furniture to even the household pets. When we evaluate our potential mates we do not add into the mix of considerable attributes their possible future shortcomings. You can reflect and after the endurance of salvaging your self esteem and navigating the path back to the new normalcy as the old life you knew is gone and it is no wonder that people are the way they are.

If I may ask would you put the onus on an abused child for not knowing that his abuser would have done what they did? Childhood, like adult relationships is based on introductory trust and when that trust is broken and the emotional self worth destroyed most people charge the abuser for knowing better and why they didn't stop it. And in the face of excuses the public perception is the lack of responsibility for taking blame nor the self awareness prior to the act.


----------



## ThePheonix

jld said:


> The truth of the matter is that different women want different things. Some want a dominant male, some want a submissive male, and some want an equal partner.


Here's the bottom line. Nine out of ten women who cheat have lost most of (>50%) the romantic interest in their husbands. Hence the reason you hear, "not only did she cheating on me. She was telling the other man and several others what a dud I've become." Truth of the matter is she was telling the truth from her perspective. Additionally during "reconcilition" why they need hard rules and boundaries on her behavior. A woman with a high romantic interest doesn't need rules and boundaries to stay true to a man. 
I know I'll be heckled by a lot of betrayed males so invite woman to comment. (I understand many in reconciliation cannot do so openly)


----------



## IIJokerII

russell28 said:


> Subtle way of saying, you're male, must have been your failure to keep her happy. You're in denial about not meeting her deepest emotional needs.
> 
> Figured I'd translate for anyone that didn't get the subtlety of it.


Effortless brilliance indeed.


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> If I were to simplify things yes it is easy. But alas, the resonating effects will last a lifetime as I now have 3 children toed forever to a person who decided to introduce chaos and discontent to an already stressful situation called family living. Under no circumstance can one say that "One day, when I am taxed to the limit on life's challenges I think I'd like to be traumatized and gas lit to the point of total breakdown.!!!!!"
> 
> Compounded is the fact from those involved is the responsibility of the materials involved from housing to cars to furniture to even the household pets. When we evaluate our potential mates we do not add into the mix of considerable attributes their possible future shortcomings. You can reflect and after the endurance of salvaging your self esteem and navigating the path back to the new normalcy as the old life you knew is gone and it is no wonder that people are the way they are.
> 
> If I may ask would you put the onus on an abused child for not knowing that his abuser would have done what they did? Childhood, like adult relationships is based on introductory trust and when that trust is broken and the emotional self worth destroyed most people charge the abuser for knowing better and why they didn't stop it. And in the face of excuses the public perception is the lack of responsibility for taking blame nor the self awareness prior to the act.


The onus is on the abuser. That is the person with more power. Responsibility is always on the person with more power.

I see men as having more power. Obviously, with submissive men, this is not true. The domme has the power. But I did not realize how many dommes there were, as well as submissive men, before starting to read relationship forums last fall.

And then there are the 50/50 people. It obviously works for them. To me it looks boring. Though, I am not without power in my relationship. I simply give most of it to dh.


----------



## jld

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the bottom line. Nine out of ten women who cheat have lost most of (>50%) the romantic interest in their husbands. Hence the reason you hear, "not only did she cheating on me. She was telling the other man and several others what a dud I've become." Truth of the matter is she was telling the truth from her perspective. Additionally during "reconcilition" why they need hard rules and boundaries on her behavior. A woman with a high romantic interest doesn't need rules and boundaries to stay true to a man.
> I know I'll be heckled by a lot of betrayed males so invite woman to comment. (I understand many in reconciliation cannot do so openly)


Makes sense. Poor Phoenix, always persecuted, when he is just trying to speak the truth. If only folks would listen and learn.

You bet she needs boundaries and hard rules. Some consequences, too. Will make her feel like he actually cares. Why are men afraid to lay down the law? Why afraid to be strict?

And for you guys that are going to put healing you in her hands . . . Better hope she is a domme. They are the only ones who could get into that, I think. Obviously, jmo.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Your conflicting posts make it difficult to follow your train of thought here.
> 
> In response to my post you assert that different people want different things, yet you still assert that the reasons for infidelity can be divided based on gender. This pretty much negates your stated response to me that different people want different things. And this is because someone wrote an article? You challenge opinions of people who post, but why not challenge the authors of an article?


That article does not cover all women. Just most, as I understood it.

Whether a woman is dominant, submissive, or equal in her relationship orientation is going to affect what she wants and how she goes about getting it, imo.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> The onus is on the abuser. That is the person with more power. Responsibility is always on the person with more power.
> 
> I see men as having more power. Obviously, with submissive men, this is not true. The domme has the power. But I did not realize how many dommes there were, as well as submissive men, before starting to read relationship forums last fall.
> 
> And then there are the 50/50 people. It obviously works for them. To me it looks boring. Though, I am not without power in my relationship. I simply give most of it to dh.


YOU give him him the power.. how wonderfully generous of you to grant him the power.

Can you take that power away? Wouldn't that ultimately give YOU the power? 

So to summarize, you tell him that he has the power, but in reality, you are in charge and you hold fidelity over his head to keep him in line.


----------



## jld

loyallad said:


> Originally Posted by IIJokerII
> Yes, the girl I expected to be truthful, loyal and committed to me made a choice. No further research is needed. We can only govern our own free will.
> 
> 
> Appears to me the WS chose the easy way. Instead of introspective of what's wrong with the marriage and can it be fixed, the WS just chose the selfish path.
> 
> Could I have done some thing different or better in my own marriage, yeah? Everybody can say that. We're all human, not perfect beings. And you know what if I was perfect all the time my WW would use that as an excuse for her A.
> 
> A lot of people on here see their shortcomings and most probably have their regrets. Just don't try to justify a WS having an A because the BS in some sort of backhanded way caused it.


Again, it is not about blaming. It is about solving the problem. And releasing her from the relationship is also a way to solve the problem. Just make sure you understand what went wrong in the relationship so you don't repeat it with someone else.


----------



## IIJokerII

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the bottom line. Nine out of ten women who cheat have lost most of (>50%) the romantic interest in their husbands. Hence the reason you hear, "not only did she cheating on me. She was telling the other man and several others what a dud I've become." Truth of the matter is she was telling the truth from her perspective. Additionally during "reconcilition" why they need hard rules and boundaries on her behavior. A woman with a high romantic interest doesn't need rules and boundaries to stay true to a man.
> I know I'll be heckled by a lot of betrayed males so invite woman to comment. (I understand many in reconciliation cannot do so openly)


This is accurate to be sure. However once the novelty wears off on anything we often tend to invest less time to whatever it is. This happens with nearly all pet owners, and despite the comparison complaints I'm bound to receive the logic is sound. Get a new puppy, and let the fun times begin. Playful moments aplenty. But what's this!!! Is this effort and work I see here. Dog walks, grooming, bathes, exercise, vet visits, cost!!! This dog is now starting to become a pain in the a55. But still it is a friendly member of the household and integrated into your lifestyle. 

Now your "Come here boy!" comments are replaced in lieu of "C'mon, go laydown" "Go outside" "Stop barking". The cute little lap dog that did mostly the same things as before are now perceived as problematic. 

Now lets go to a friends house or some random encounter and what's this, " Say that's a nice dog, I got a dog too at home" Then the "I like pets, yeah I have a dog at home (Insert breed and length of ownership here)" But you don't say so with the same enthusiasm as you did when you met this new dog. You know so, yet dismiss it and even the tone in your voice publicly indicates your stale and weary feelings about your beloved pet.

So now you begin to make time for this new dog, take it for walks, play ball with it, bring it some treats and so on. What you don't realize is that this time has been taken away from you own dog and despite the fact that not only can your own dog smell the scent of another but is also beginning to show signs of distress from seeing his owner less and less. Still, the neglected dog still wags his tail unknowingly to him what his owner is doing. The owner still remarks go lay down as he wished to have his space for his own endeavors disregarding the pet he once wanted and felt endless joy over.

Wash, rinse and repeat.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Would you look at that if you were a women, or only if you're a man? Should the woman also look at it? You say "he"...
> 
> So would you look at what 'he' did wrong, or what you did wrong?


If my husband cheated on me, you bet I would look at myself. And I would listen to his explanation of my role in the problem.

Does not mean I still would not divorce him. But I would want to learn from the experience.

And I do not know if I would divorce him. I have a good life. He is good to me. I would not feel safe having sex with him anymore, though. Who wants a disease?

And if you think I do not regularly examine my conscience, you obviously do not know me.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Subtle way of saying, you're male, must have been your failure to keep her happy. You're in denial about not meeting her deepest emotional needs.
> 
> Figured I'd translate for anyone that didn't get the subtlety of it.


It is on the man to hold the woman's attraction. Or, let's say it this way, on the dominant person to hold the attraction of the less dominant person. Usually the male is dominant, but not always. Sometimes the female is dominant, and sometimes it is 50/50.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> YOU give him him the power.. how wonderfully generous of you to grant him the power.
> 
> Can you take that power away? Wouldn't that ultimately give YOU the power?
> 
> So to summarize, you tell him that he has the power, but in reality, you are in charge and you hold fidelity over his head to keep him in line.


I have a deep need to please him. I do not want to be unfaithful, so I tell him whenever I feel attracted to another man. 

I don't think dh feels the same need to please me. He does not fear losing me, imo. I am pretty deeply tied into him, and he knows that.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> You bet she needs boundaries and hard rules. Some consequences, too. Will make her feel like he actually cares. Why are men afraid to lay down the law? Why afraid to be strict? QUOTE]
> 
> Because if men do this then are then greeted by the "You're too controlling" card or "I Shouldn't have to feel like I am (Insert suggested consequential remark you indicated as needed here)"
> 
> It also sounds like you are ok with conformity and consequences or the laydown of the law as you put it. However who wrote the book? Since you say you give him the power one can only assume that you also gave him the guidelines to discipline and boundaries that you will accept and tolerate.


----------



## jld

I do not think there is enough understanding of power dynamics on TAM. I think they are part of every relationship, and knowing how they work could solve a lot of problems.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> That article does not cover all women. Just most, as I understood it.
> 
> Whether a woman is dominant, submissive, or equal in her relationship orientation is going to affect what she wants and how she goes about getting it, imo.


And again, why not challenge the article? Why are you so, to use your terms, submissive, to the conclusions in one article?


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> You bet she needs boundaries and hard rules. Some consequences, too. Will make her feel like he actually cares. Why are men afraid to lay down the law? Why afraid to be strict? QUOTE]
> 
> Because if men do this then are then greeted by the "You're too controlling" card or "I Shouldn't have to feel like I am (Insert suggested consequential remark you indicated as needed here)"
> 
> It also sounds like you are ok with conformity and consequences or the laydown of the law as you put it. However who wrote the book? Since you say you give him the power one can only assume that you also gave him the guidelines to discipline and boundaries that you will accept and tolerate.
> 
> 
> 
> You have the control if you are the BH. The cheater handed you an awful lot of it after you found out, and did not kick them out. Use it already.
> 
> If you can still be pushed around after she cheats, release her, for both your sakes.
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> And again, why not challenge the article? Why are you so, to use your terms, submissive, to the conclusions in one article?


The article makes sense to me. It is consistent with what I have observed in life.


----------



## Hope1964

jld, I have asked you this several times before and to my knowledge you have never answered me.

Do you or do you not see that when someone cheats, there are two separate issues at play? 1) the fact of their cheating, which is 100% THEIR choice, and 2) the state of the marriage, which both partners contribute to. ??

A simple yes or no would be nice.


----------



## vellocet

russell28 said:


> Subtle way of saying, you're male, must have been your failure to keep her happy. You're in denial about not meeting her deepest emotional needs.
> 
> *Figured I'd translate for anyone that didn't get the subtlety of it*.


Oh no, no subtlety there. Its blatantly obvious.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> The onus is on the abuser.


This is refreshing. Glad to see you acknowledge the onus is on Zanne


----------



## IIJokerII

vellocet said:


> This is refreshing. Glad to see you acknowledge the onus is on Zanne


I do not think this was by design.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> If my husband cheated on me, you bet I would look at myself. And I would listen to his explanation of my role in the problem.


The problem, as you have already told this forum, is that more than likely its simply because a man wants a variety of sexual partners, therefore you would have no role since the problem would be all him.

As opposed to if it were a woman, then its because the man didn't meet her "deepest emotional needs".

Busted.


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> jld, I have asked you this several times before and to my knowledge you have never answered me.
> 
> Do you or do you not see that when someone cheats, there are two separate issues at play? 1) the fact of their cheating, which is 100% THEIR choice, and 2) the state of the marriage, which both partners contribute to. ??
> 
> A simple yes or no would be nice.


She has already acknowledged this in other threads.

If the man cheats, then its because he simply wants a variety of sexual partners. Therefore the wife did not contribute to this particular problem in the marriage.

If a woman cheats, its the man's fault.

So while she probably would say yes to #1, #2 depends on whether its the husband or wife that cheats.


----------



## vellocet

IIJokerII said:


> I do not think this was by design.


Oh I know. Just pointing out the double standard and gender bias. I'd call it what it really is, but would rather not get my hand slapped.


----------



## Hope1964

vellocet said:


> She has already acknowledged this in other threads.
> 
> If the man cheats, then its because he simply wants a variety of sexual partners. Therefore the wife did not contribute to this particular problem in the marriage.
> 
> If a woman cheats, its the man's fault.
> 
> So while she probably would say yes to #1, #2 depends on whether its the husband or wife that cheats.


In other words, her answer is no, she does NOT acknowledge that the issues are always separate.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> jld, I have asked you this several times before and to my knowledge you have never answered me.
> 
> Do you or do you not see that when someone cheats, there are two separate issues at play? 1) the fact of their cheating, which is 100% THEIR choice, and 2) the state of the marriage, which both partners contribute to. ??
> 
> A simple yes or no would be nice.


Yes, I see that. That they are each responsible for half the situation leading up to it, and the cheater is completely responsible for the affair.


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> I do not think this was by design.


Explanation, please?


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> This is refreshing. Glad to see you acknowledge the onus is on Zanne


If she was the dominant, then yes. Was she?


----------



## loyallad

jld said:


> Again, it is not about blaming. It is about solving the problem. And releasing her from the relationship is also a way to solve the problem. Just make sure you understand what went wrong in the relationship so you don't repeat it with someone else.


Okay the problem is I married someone who cheated.

I don't recall telling her "yes I suck as a husband now go find someone else and screw them."

There was never "if you don't change I'll have an A" or "because you're this way I'll run around with someone else". I tried to get my WS to go to marriage counseling both before and after her A. You want to know what she said. I'm not going because the only people who go to MC are hopeless anyway.

So the only way to "solve this problem" is I should have never married her. Well thank you jld. Where were you o so many years ago with your wealth of wisdom?


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> Yes, I see that. That they are each responsible for half the situation leading up to it, and the cheater is completely responsible for the affair.


NO. You apparently do NOT understand.

Being responsible for the state of the marriage has NOTHING to do with the cheater cheating. You can NOT equate 'the state of the marriage' with 'the situation leading up to [the cheating]'

In EVERY marriage, both partners have to take responsibility for whatever state it is in. This is true of every marriage, whether the people actually in it think they are or not. They should both be working on it. If they don't, it will fall apart.

When a marriage is falling apart, each person has a choice of what to do about it. Whatever choice they make is NOT a result of the state the marriage was in. If it was, they'd both make the same choice. It's a result of whatever is in themselves.

Until you understand that, you do not get it.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> If she was the dominant, then yes. Was she?


You said the onus was on the abuser. And yes, she is.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

jld said:


> I think most women (2/3?) want a man who is dominant, but unselfishly so.
> 
> She wants your love and care and understanding, She also wants you to say No to her when it is in her best interests.
> 
> Have you heard the expression, "iron hand in a velvet glove?"


How did you come up with 2/3rds?

*Edit - I see you used an article that says 1/3 of men are submissive and 1/3 of women are dominant so from that you surmised that 2/3rds want a dominant male? Or it could be that 2/3rds want an equal partner or a percentage of either.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> Explanation, please?


There seems to be a disconnect between rationalization and responsibility from your statements and point of view. On one hand you say that you allow your husband to be the dominant one, which is in in itself a contradictory statement. You also seem to simultaneously support yet condemn Zanne's infidelity. 

I cannot express enough the incalculable damage that this kind of abusive behavior produces. Men and women do have needs and like you have indicated by your statements when both genders employ rationalization for their action or desires whatever the consequences that may be do not matter. 

If one is unhappy and makes it known (Check engine light on) then the other spouse is now up to bat to engage, discuss and produce a mutual agreement upon the spouses best interest. If these feelings are unknown then the BS was defeated before he/she ever had a chance due to involuntary ignorance.

In either case the WS has an obligation to make it know what their dissatisfaction is prior to any affair. If your dinner sucks you let the waiter know well in advance, not eat the damn thing knowing full well you will not like it at all and THEN complain it sucked. 

Please oh please, just call it what it is, a selfish choice based on ones want, nothing more or less. Just ask a reformed drug user who rationalized stealing and prostitution to obtain a fix, something most people would not resort to, unless they felt they needed to.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

You are all over the board on your thoughts and every post you make contradicts your previous one. If what you claim is true, then no matter how much sex a wife has with her husband, he is going to cheat anyways. No matter how much emotional support a husband gives his wife, she is going to screw around, yet the list you posted states the exact opposite. What is it you are trying to say?


----------



## ReformedHubby

Interesting thread jld. I'm a former wayward as many of you know. I used to be of the opinion that women and men have different reasons for cheating but I've changed my stance on that. Anyone can play armchair psychologist so I'll give it a shot too.

I basically think there are three types of cheaters regardless of gender.

1) Thrillseeker - this was the kind I was, if you're married to someone like this it doesn't matter how much emotional support or sex you give them. They are chasing the thrill of new experiences, and can easily compartmentalize. They really don't feel guilty at all about cheating, and are the least likely to become emotionally attached to the AP because they view them as objects. Also, a very low chance of reconciliation with this type.


2) Void Fillers - These are folks who feel they aren't getting something in their current relationship. It could be physical, emotional, or even financial. In many cases it might be all in their heads. 

But because of their thought process and rapidly growing resentment towards their spouse, if an opportunity to cheat presents itself they will act on it. Some even help the "opportunity" along by spouse bashing within their social and professional circle. Others feel conflicted but go along with it anyways when an opportunity presents itself. These people are the ones that are in serious danger of developing emotional attachments. Often, even if you want to reconcile with them their heart simply isn't in it. 

3) One and done - This does happen. It could be someone that has taken too many shots at a bar and went home with someone, or a person after meeting up with an old flame only to realize it was a mistake. There are all sorts of scenarios. But the bottom line is they wake up the next day scared to death of what they did and never do it again. This does happen. 

That's my theory. I think the "types" of cheater argument works better because both genders represent all types. Just my thoughts.......


----------



## IIJokerII

Labeling the individual reason for cheating does nothing really but clout the issue. If your hungry you eat, simple as that. Whether you're a vegan, vegetarian, meat and potatoes only or whatever your fancy you still accomplished the same goal, you ate.

Cheating is no different, you were hungry and decided to eat (no puns please, at least for now) what you wanted. The buildup to the decision is irrelevant. You were constricted by choice, as we all are.


----------



## loyallad

ReformedHubby said:


> Interesting thread jld. I'm a former wayward as many of you know. I used to be of the opinion that women and men have different reasons for cheating but I've changed my stance on that. Anyone can play armchair psychologist so I'll give it a shot too.
> 
> I basically think there are three types of cheaters regardless of gender.
> 
> 1) Thrillseeker - this was the kind I was, if you're married to someone like this it doesn't matter how much emotional support or sex you give them. They are chasing the thrill of new experiences, and can easily compartmentalize. They really don't feel guilty at all about cheating, and are the least likely to become emotionally attached to the AP because they view them as objects. Also, a very low chance of reconciliation with this type.
> 
> 
> 2) Void Fillers - These are folks who feel they aren't getting something in their current relationship. It could be physical, emotional, or even financial. In many cases it might be all in their heads.
> 
> But because of their thought process and rapidly growing resentment towards their spouse, if an opportunity to cheat presents itself they will act on it. Some even help the "opportunity" along by spouse bashing within their social and professional circle. Others feel conflicted but go along with it anyways when an opportunity presents itself. These people are the ones that are in serious danger of developing emotional attachments. Often, even if you want to reconcile with them their heart simply isn't in it.
> 
> 3) One and done - This does happen. It could be someone that has taken too many shots at a bar and went home with someone, or a person after meeting up with an old flame only to realize it was a mistake. There are all sorts of scenarios. But the bottom line is they wake up the next day scared to death of what they did and never do it again. This does happen.
> 
> That's my theory. I think the "types" of cheater argument works better because both genders represent all types. Just my thoughts.......


Reformed you probably come closer to the truth than the usual lame excuses thrown out there. I know both men and women that fall into those catagories. My WW would fit in the second catagory.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> The onus is on the abuser. That is the person with more power. Responsibility is always on the person with more power.
> 
> I see men as having more power. Obviously, with submissive men, this is not true. The domme has the power. But I did not realize how many dommes there were, as well as submissive men, before starting to read relationship forums last fall.
> 
> And then there are the 50/50 people. It obviously works for them. To me it looks boring. Though, I am not without power in my relationship. I simply give most of it to dh.


So...I work out. I am twice the size and easily that amount of strength stronger than my wife. I have 'the power'.

So if she hauls off and hits me in the back of the head with a baseball bat (hypothetically), since I have 'the power', I am to blame for her hitting me?

If, totally out of the blue, she has a hormonal shift and starts screaming insults and imprecations at me in front of our friends, embarrassing me, since 'I have the power', it is my fault? There is some hidden unknown reason for her to do such things and I, as a faulty but 'powerful' male, am somehow to blame for her sudden attack? Or is it, if I can't get over these attacks, somehow I lack 'strength'?

For it seems you have a perchance to equate a refusal to put up with a woman's nonsense, from attacks, infidelity, or even a bastard child as a failure of a male's strength. 

So, why is poor actions on her part a failure of the man instead of a failure of the woman?

Please inform me how I have what you are saying incorrect.


----------



## IIJokerII

JCD said:


> So...I work out. I am twice the size and easily that amount of strength stronger than my wife. I have 'the power'.
> 
> So if she hauls off and hits me in the back of the head with a baseball bat (hypothetically), since I have 'the power', I am to blame for her hitting me?
> 
> If, totally out of the blue, she has a hormonal shift and starts screaming insults and imprecations at me in front of our friends, embarrassing me, since 'I have the power', it is my fault? There is some hidden unknown reason for her to do such things and I, as a faulty but 'powerful' male, am somehow to blame for her sudden attack? Or is it, if I can't get over these attacks, somehow I lack 'strength'?
> 
> For it seems you have a perchance to equate a refusal to put up with a woman's nonsense, from attacks, infidelity, or even a bastard child as a failure of a male's strength.
> 
> So, why is poor actions on her part a failure of the man instead of a failure of the woman?
> 
> Please inform me how I have what you are saying incorrect.


Oh snap!!!! The home run of truth!!!


----------



## vellocet

JCD said:


> So...I work out. I am twice the size and easily that amount of strength stronger than my wife. I have 'the power'.
> 
> So if she hauls off and hits me in the back of the head with a baseball bat (hypothetically), since I have 'the power', I am to blame for her hitting me?
> 
> If, totally out of the blue, she has a hormonal shift and starts screaming insults and imprecations at me in front of our friends, embarrassing me, since 'I have the power', it is my fault? There is some hidden unknown reason for her to do such things and I, as a faulty but 'powerful' male, am somehow to blame for her sudden attack? Or is it, if I can't get over these attacks, somehow I lack 'strength'?
> 
> For it seems you have a perchance to equate a refusal to put up with a woman's nonsense, from attacks, infidelity, or even a bastard child as a failure of a male's strength.
> 
> So, why is poor actions on her part a failure of the man instead of a failure of the woman?
> 
> Please inform me how I have what you are saying incorrect.


Disclaimers and backpedalling .........wait for it.......


----------



## IIJokerII

This forum has become therapeutic, but strangely alarming as people sometime try to justify their actions by any means necessary. Soon the Alpha/Beta people will top the thread off about the "weak" men who did not do a good enough job humping their wives into submission. I am waiting for the suggestion of peeing on her pee or common area's.

Hell a year ago I said how lucky I am to have been past that stupid phase of life with no more worries, I was wrong.


----------



## ReformedHubby

IIJokerII said:


> Labeling the individual reason for cheating does nothing really but clout the issue. If your hungry you eat, simple as that. Whether you're a vegan, vegetarian, meat and potatoes only or whatever your fancy you still accomplished the same goal, you ate.
> 
> Cheating is no different, you were hungry and decided to eat (no puns please, at least for now) what you wanted. The buildup to the decision is irrelevant. You were constricted by choice, as we all are.


Although a simple explanation your example works. I occasionally come to CWI and usually when you have a thread about why people cheat its mostly betrayed spouses in the conversation. From what I've read on here in the past they tend to make it more complicated than it really is. I guess because its even more painful to think that your spouse did it because they thought person x was hot and thought they could get away with it.


----------



## treyvion

russell28 said:


> I heard that.. I also know that my wife and I had sex all the time, or I would have been more suspicious of her having an AP.
> 
> I won't list all the 'work' I did in the relationship vs. what 'work' she was doing in the relationship, it's not worth the time. We were both working fine until she started getting flirty with guy in work. That seemed to magnify all the normal little marriage problems into big deal breakers. You make it sound as if the BS is always some fat lazy drunk that does nothing and the wife is some angelic slave that eventually snaps and seeks out help in the arms of a loving stranger. Meanwhile in another thread you're telling Zanne it's all cool that she cheated her husband, because she got married young and he's not strong.


Not strong enough to take it?


----------



## IIJokerII

ReformedHubby said:


> Although a simple explanation your example works. I occasionally come to CWI and usually when you have a thread about why people cheat its mostly betrayed spouses in the conversation. From what I've read on here in the past they tend to make it more complicated than it really is. I guess because its even more painful to think that your spouse did it because they thought person x was hot and thought they could get away with it.


This is more or less an assault on the thought process of adults to which they barely, if ever take full responsibility. I crashed my car cause the bartender fed me too many drinks, I got injured cause the house I broke into had a dog, I cheated because, well pick you poison. 

or if you prefer even simpler, thought + urge + want = need X rationalization / responsibility - self awareness = infidelity!!


----------



## ThePheonix

jld said:


> Poor Phoenix, always persecuted, when he is just trying to speak the truth. If only folks would listen and learn.


 You're a tough customer J.  To add, he should have laid down the law before the problem started. Same for the gals with the bush chasing husbands.


----------



## ThePheonix

Hope1964 said:


> Do you or do you not see that when someone cheats, there are two separate issues at play? 1) the fact of their cheating, which is 100% THEIR choice, and 2) the state of the marriage, which both partners contribute to. ??
> 
> A simple yes or no would be nice.


You know the answer. So does jld. Most likely ya'll are on the same page.


----------



## Hope1964

ThePheonix said:


> You know the answer. So does jld


Yes I do know her answer. And I can guarantee we are NOT on the same page.


----------



## ThePheonix

What does your page say Hope? I figure I'm the contrarian when I say sometimes the BS spouse has contributed to mischief. I've met a number of gals who most likely wouldn't have cheated if their old man would have got their act together. 
I still want to know if I'm right when I say that most woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands. Either I'm wrong or the gals don't want to go there. What say you?


----------



## IIJokerII

ThePheonix said:


> What does your page say Hope? I figure I'm the contrarian when I say sometimes the BS spouse has contributed to mischief. I've met a number of gals who most likely wouldn't have cheated if their old man would have got their act together.
> I still want to know if I'm right when I say that most woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands. Either I'm wrong or the gals don't want to go there. What say you?


Can't speak for him but I am sure these "gals" told you a story based on their unbiased opinion from their perspective. I got a better chance of winning the Kentucky derby riding a donkey than seeing someone detail with unbiased accuracy of their past transgressions or actions that they know others might consider immoral or just plain awful. This applies to men as well, which loops right back around to rationalization. 

As for romantic feelings, this can cause some one to look or even consider their options but they still prefer to take the easy way in dealing with their feelings vs telling their partner what they feel they need for fear of their spouses reaction. Plus you also have to consider all other attributes introduced into the marriage, and as the common theme of the infidelity forum is usually "dated for a bit, got married when we were (age is not a factor) then had kids............... The expected byproduct of marriage or any sexual relationship is often the direct cause of most stress including fatigue, cost, time and expectations. in other words hard work, real hard work, and considering this is now the era of consumption and egotism is it really that hard to see where the biggest obstacle of marriage lies? 

This is not to say that people should or don't love their children but it is a job, and after working for 7 or 8 years straight it does take its toll. Gone are the days of endless romantic gestures and sex and more accurately personal and codependent freedom.

Of course, you get the individuals who find that if their spouse does not want children then they now have a reason to leave, or cheat.


----------



## JCD

> Can't speak for him but I am sure these "gals" told you a story based on their unbiased opinion from their perspective. I got a better chance of winning the Kentucky derby riding a donkey than seeing someone detail with unbiased accuracy of their past transgressions or actions that they know others might consider immoral or just plain awful. This applies to men as well, which loops right back around to rationalization.


Well, true. But I would be careful to totally dismiss such reasons and revelations. I believe cheating is wrong and I believe rationalizations are involved. However, I do not believe a cheater suddenly changes in vampiric fashion from 'reasonably good person' to 'spawn of Satan' in one screw. If it's true, that is one wicked STD!

So no, I don't believe that cheaters go to 100% of a liar. It's like perception: a wife hanging up her cell phone when her husband arrives, who is out late at night without explanation or is seen with another man alone in a restaurant...well, no one would blame a husband for looking askance. His perception is reality to him (though he might want to inform himself a bit more before he blows up...to find she was planning a surprise party or something)

So too, whatever offenses made in the marriage were, or at least seemed real to the WS at the time. This is useful information.

One, it reveals weak spots in your 'partner-fu'. Instead of brushing it off as rambling of a weak and twisted mind, maybe you can improve yourself. This doesn't excuse the cheating...but it certainly was something you may need work on...or at least know to pick a partner who is not sensitive to whatever.

Two, if she is bat guano crazy, you now can appreciate her leaving much better and feel a sense of relief.

However, I am betting number one is far more relevant for most couples...though few of the BS want to admit this.


----------



## IIJokerII

JCD said:


> Well, true. But I would be careful to totally dismiss such reasons and revelations. I believe cheating is wrong and I believe rationalizations are involved. However, I do not believe a cheater suddenly changes in vampiric fashion from 'reasonably good person' to 'spawn of Satan' in one screw. If it's true, that is one wicked STD!
> 
> So no, I don't believe that cheaters go to 100% of a liar. It's like perception: a wife hanging up her cell phone when her husband arrives, who is out late at night without explanation or is seen with another man alone in a restaurant...well, no one would blame a husband for looking askance. His perception is reality to him (though he might want to inform himself a bit more before he blows up...to find she was planning a surprise party or something)
> 
> So too, whatever offenses made in the marriage were, or at least seemed real to the WS at the time. This is useful information.
> 
> One, it reveals weak spots in your 'partner-fu'. Instead of brushing it off as rambling of a weak and twisted mind, maybe you can improve yourself. This doesn't excuse the cheating...but it certainly was something you may need work on...or at least know to pick a partner who is not sensitive to whatever.
> 
> Two, if she is bat guano crazy, you now can appreciate her leaving much better and feel a sense of relief.
> 
> However, I am betting number one is far more relevant for most couples...though few of the BS want to admit this.


I don't know but from what I have experienced the moment I have confronted any of the girls I have been with have been met with raw anger and unequivocal justification;

" you're just too immature to provide me with what I NEED!"
" I Just want to be happy"
"I want to feel (financially) safe and you can't provide that"
" You pushed it" When I thought it was heading that way.

Honestly it must be, for me anyway, the women that I get hooked on. Although they were all different in nearly everyway the end result is the same. My wife for our early years was adamant about hating liars and cheaters citing her fathers past actions and his apparent responsibility for splitting up her family. It was like a part of me died the day I found out, the first time (EA's).


----------



## ThePheonix

IIJokerII said:


> Can't speak for him but I am sure these "gals" told you a story based on their unbiased opinion from their perspective.


Every woman I've known in this category, except two, had a low romantic interest in their husbands. My question is still, "do women with a high romantic interest cheat on their husbands?". It appears that the woman you speak of in the above post would have a low romantic interest. Am I wrong? (Tell you what Dawg, you need to consider yourself lucky that bunch hit the road)


----------



## vellocet

ThePheonix said:


> You know the answer. So does jld. Most likely ya'll are on the same page.


Not at all. To JLD, who is responsible depends on the gender.

The rest of us, we don't care if the cheater is a man or woman.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Not at all. To JLD, who is responsible depends on the gender.
> 
> The rest of us, we don't care if the cheater is a man or woman.


Why do you keep speaking for me? Why do you think you know my thoughts and my mindset?

For the record, I think affairs are a very bad idea. I think deception is a very bad idea. I am transparent with Dug, and I would not want it any other way. I started that right away in our relationship. If he could not have handled it, it would have been a sign that he was not the right partner for me.

He can handle it, and has come to appreciate it. Probably could not imagine not being married to a woman like this. 

Yes, I do see relationships through the lens of power dynamics. The mistake I make is assuming the man always has more power. There really are male submissives in the world, and there really are equal relationships. And certainly the most common frame for advice is through the prism of equal relationships.

I just wonder sometimes about the whole idea of equal relationships. Are they really that common? Do we all have the same capabilities? Or does every relationship tend toward toward one or the other carrying more of the load?


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> So...I work out. I am twice the size and easily that amount of strength stronger than my wife. I have 'the power'.
> 
> So if she hauls off and hits me in the back of the head with a baseball bat (hypothetically), since I have 'the power', I am to blame for her hitting me?
> 
> If, totally out of the blue, she has a hormonal shift and starts screaming insults and imprecations at me in front of our friends, embarrassing me, since 'I have the power', it is my fault? There is some hidden unknown reason for her to do such things and I, as a faulty but 'powerful' male, am somehow to blame for her sudden attack? Or is it, if I can't get over these attacks, somehow I lack 'strength'?
> 
> For it seems you have a perchance to equate a refusal to put up with a woman's nonsense, from attacks, infidelity, or even a bastard child as a failure of a male's strength.
> 
> So, why is poor actions on her part a failure of the man instead of a failure of the woman?
> 
> Please inform me how I have what you are saying incorrect.


I don't think power in a relationship is mainly physical. I think it is mainly emotional. 

Who can remain calm? Who can control their emotions when feelings are running high? Who can look past words and actions to the underlying reasons for them? Who can do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing to do, even when it seems unfair?

Those might be some of the questions I would ask if I were trying to figure out who has the power in a relationship.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Why do you keep speaking for me? Why do you think you know my thoughts and my mindset?


Because you put them out there as I've already shown. Your words plain as day.




> For the record, I think affairs are a very bad idea. I think deception is a very bad idea.


Stating the obvious doesn't change what you said about men shouldn't be forgiven but women should because its the man's fault.

I can repost it if you like?


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> Interesting thread jld. I'm a former wayward as many of you know. I used to be of the opinion that women and men have different reasons for cheating but I've changed my stance on that. Anyone can play armchair psychologist so I'll give it a shot too.
> 
> I basically think there are three types of cheaters regardless of gender.
> 
> 1) Thrillseeker - this was the kind I was, if you're married to someone like this it doesn't matter how much emotional support or sex you give them. They are chasing the thrill of new experiences, and can easily compartmentalize. They really don't feel guilty at all about cheating, and are the least likely to become emotionally attached to the AP because they view them as objects. Also, a very low chance of reconciliation with this type.
> 
> 
> 2) Void Fillers - These are folks who feel they aren't getting something in their current relationship. It could be physical, emotional, or even financial. In many cases it might be all in their heads.
> 
> But because of their thought process and rapidly growing resentment towards their spouse, if an opportunity to cheat presents itself they will act on it. Some even help the "opportunity" along by spouse bashing within their social and professional circle. Others feel conflicted but go along with it anyways when an opportunity presents itself. These people are the ones that are in serious danger of developing emotional attachments. Often, even if you want to reconcile with them their heart simply isn't in it.
> 
> 3) One and done - This does happen. It could be someone that has taken too many shots at a bar and went home with someone, or a person after meeting up with an old flame only to realize it was a mistake. There are all sorts of scenarios. But the bottom line is they wake up the next day scared to death of what they did and never do it again. This does happen.
> 
> That's my theory. I think the "types" of cheater argument works better because both genders represent all types. Just my thoughts.......


And what if we discover that most men who cheat are thrill seekers and most women who cheat are void fillers? And a few one and doners are of either sex?

I don't think what you are saying conflicts with the research alluded to in that article. They did not say "all" men or women fit into one category. I think the figure was 80%.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Because you put them out there as I've already shown. Your words plain as day.
> 
> You do realize that everything that is said is interpreted, right?
> 
> Stating the obvious doesn't change what you said about men shouldn't be forgiven but women should because its the man's fault.
> 
> I said I would hesitate to recommend a woman take back a cheating man. Some have and it has worked out fine. I am not allowed to have an opinion?
> 
> Personally, I think the odds of taking back a cheating wife are better. Not always, certainly. And I would only recommend taking her back if she were completely repentant. Again, I am not allowed to have an opinion?


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> And what if we discover that most men who cheat are thrill seekers and most women who cheat are void fillers?


Then it simply would help validate argument, in your mind, that most men shouldn't be given a 2nd chance and most women should.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Then it simply would help validate argument, in your mind, that most men shouldn't be given a 2nd chance and most women should.


And I simply must not be allowed to have my opinion validated?

It is just my opinion, vell. It does not have any power it is not given. And if it is given power, it could be because there is at least some truth to it.


----------



## Hope1964

ThePheonix said:


> What does your page say Hope? I figure I'm the contrarian when I say sometimes the BS spouse has contributed to mischief. I've met a number of gals who most likely wouldn't have cheated if their old man would have got their act together.
> I still want to know if I'm right when I say that most woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands. Either I'm wrong or the gals don't want to go there. What say you?


I don't understand what you're asking here. My page??? You can read my entire story through the link in my sig. I have never cheated.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> You do realize that everything that is said is interpreted, right?


Anyone can see that there is no interpretation needed when I posted it. Your words are plain as day and perfectly clear.



> I said I would hesitate to recommend a woman take back a cheating man.


Yup, your words. You also went on to say that women should be taken back so that the man can meet their "deepest emotional needs".



> I am not allowed to have an opinion?


Everyone has an opinion. Some more despicable than others.



> Personally, I think the odds of taking back a cheating wife are better. Not always, certainly. And I would only recommend taking her back if she were completely repentant.


That's not what you said in the quote. You qualified your statement that a man should take back a cheating wife so he can meet her needs.

Again, pedaling backwards does not make you go in reverse.



> Again, I am not allowed to have an opinion?


Sure can. But expect to be called on your gender bias.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> It is just my opinion, vell. It does not have any power


Now we have something we can finally agree on.


----------



## russell28

ThePheonix said:


> What does your page say Hope? I figure I'm the contrarian when I say sometimes the BS spouse has contributed to mischief. I've met a number of gals who most likely wouldn't have cheated if their old man would have got their act together.
> I still want to know if I'm right when I say that most woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands. Either I'm wrong or the gals don't want to go there. What say you?


Prove they wouldn't have cheated if the old man got the act together. 

I'm willing to bet there are many women, that have spanned decades of marriage and remained faithful to men that, at points in their lives, they didn't feel so romantic about. So there's the other side of the coin. 

One other thing to think about. The man can do everything in his power to keep her romantic interest high, but as long as she's aware that he's interested in her, and loves her, she might want more than just him to be interested and love her. She might need external validation, at which point it doesn't matter how macho the guy is, how many Harley's he rides and how much leather he wears. Some guy with a bigger hog, or just a different color might come along and seem interesting.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> You qualified your statement that a man *should* take back a cheating wife so he can meet her needs.


Show me that, please.


----------



## russell28

Hope1964 said:


> I don't understand what you're asking here. My page??? You can read my entire story through the link in my sig. I have never cheated.


He's saying it's the mans fault if the women cheats, because he didn't stay interesting enough.. woo her enough.. buy her enough diamonds, grow a pron moustachio.. and play mind games to keep her romantically interested.. Perhaps leave her every week, and then get back with her to keep the drama high. Pretend he's a rock star and wear assless chaps.. do the 180 every other week.. Jump through hoops to keep her romantic interest in him high. 

Of course some women won't be impressed with a man that's so beta all jumping through hoops to stay romantic and might need some side action to spice things up... so there's that.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> He's saying it's the mans fault if the women cheats, because he didn't stay interesting enough.. woo her enough.. buy her enough diamonds, grow a pron moustachio.. and play mind games to keep her romantically interested.. Perhaps leave her every week, and then get back with her to keep the drama high. Pretend he's a rock star and wear assless chaps.. do the 180 every other week.. Jump through hoops to keep her romantic interest in him high.
> 
> Of course some women won't be impressed with a man that's so beta all jumping through hoops to stay romantic and might need some side action to spice things up... so there's that.


Or maybe she just wanted him to pay some simple attention to her. I think that is what Phoenix actually said.


----------



## Hope1964

russell28 said:


> He's saying it's the mans fault if the women cheats, because he didn't stay interesting enough.. woo her enough.. buy her enough diamonds, grow a pron moustachio.. and play mind games to keep her romantically interested.. Perhaps leave her every week, and then get back with her to keep the drama high. Pretend he's a rock star and wear assless chaps.. do the 180 every other week.. Jump through hoops to keep her romantic interest in him high.
> 
> Of course some women won't be impressed with a man that's so beta all jumping through hoops to stay romantic and might need some side action to spice things up... so there's that.


Well I am the woman and have never cheated, despite being married to what many would call a very 'nice' guy. I came closer to cheating on my first husband, who wasn't. 

jld, can you please comment on this?



Hope1964 said:


> NO. You apparently do NOT understand.
> 
> Being responsible for the state of the marriage has NOTHING to do with the cheater cheating. You can NOT equate 'the state of the marriage' with 'the situation leading up to [the cheating]'
> 
> In EVERY marriage, both partners have to take responsibility for whatever state it is in. This is true of every marriage, whether the people actually in it think they are or not. They should both be working on it. If they don't, it will fall apart.
> 
> When a marriage is falling apart, each person has a choice of what to do about it. Whatever choice they make is NOT a result of the state the marriage was in. If it was, they'd both make the same choice. It's a result of whatever is in themselves.
> 
> Until you understand that, you do not get it.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Show me that, please.


:lol:

Ok, so you can't backpedal and refute what I've said, so you get hung up on a word.



jld said:


> I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


There is hope for taking back a cheating wife if the man meets her needs. In other words, its on the man as usual. Man's fault she cheats, man's fault if taking her back isn't successful.

Please feel free to stop at any time, you are digging a hole for yourself.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Or maybe she just wanted him to pay some simple attention to her. I think that is what Phoenix actually said.


Or she's bored with the husband paying her attention and the new guy that's been paying her attention seems more interesting, so she starts to make up reasons why the husband isn't paying her enough attention. But if we actually weight out the 'attention' and type of 'attention', you'd often find the husband is acutally doing more than the lover, it's just being passed off as 'he has to say he loves me' and such. He bought her flowers because he has to, but the lover... oooh, tingly... new guy flowers. Husband gets no credit for changing oil in her care, making sure she has new tires. Marrying her, giving her children, buying her a house and stuff to fill it, trips to Disney.. Meanwhile, lover boy is buying coffee.. taking her to a motel..


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> :lol:
> 
> Ok, so you can't backpedal and refute what I've said, so you get hung up on a word.
> 
> No, it is you who cannot find any evidence of what I supposedly said.
> 
> There is hope for taking back a cheating wife if the man meets her needs. In other words, its on the man as usual. Man's fault she cheats, man's fault if taking her back isn't successful.
> 
> We do not have to lay blame. If he does not want his cheating wife anymore, he can certainly divorce her. If he wants to keep her, he would be wise to look at why the affair happened, and see if there is anything he can do to prevent it's happening again.
> 
> Please feel free to stop at any time, you are digging a hole for yourself. Not sure what this means.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> he would be wise to look at why the affair happened, and see if there is anything he can do to prevent it's happening again.


What about her, should she look at what she can do to prevent it from happening again? 

Please don't answer with "she should make him..." or "she should expect him to..." or anything with he or him in it.


----------



## jld

Hope, I think what you are saying is that cheating is a weakness in the character of the cheater. I agree with that. We all have different weaknesses. We react to stress differently.


----------



## Healer

Hope1964 said:


> NO. You apparently do NOT understand.
> 
> Being responsible for the state of the marriage has NOTHING to do with the cheater cheating. You can NOT equate 'the state of the marriage' with 'the situation leading up to [the cheating]'
> 
> In EVERY marriage, both partners have to take responsibility for whatever state it is in. This is true of every marriage, whether the people actually in it think they are or not. They should both be working on it. If they don't, it will fall apart.
> 
> When a marriage is falling apart, each person has a choice of what to do about it. Whatever choice they make is NOT a result of the state the marriage was in. If it was, they'd both make the same choice. It's a result of whatever is in themselves.
> 
> Until you understand that, you do not get it.


You're going to need a helmet. Brick walls are hard on the noggin.


----------



## russell28

Often the person that stops working on the marriage is the one that cheats, not the other way around. I think that's where the confusion comes in. One person cheats, and it's assumed they cheated because the OTHER person stopped working on the marriage, when all the evidence points to the person that cheated being the one that stopped working on the marriage.


----------



## Healer

ThePheonix said:


> ...woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands.


One of the most trite assertions I've read on here. What a revelation!

Here are some more:

A person won't eat if they're full.

If a person loves their job, they won't quit and find a different one.

If someone feels really comfy in the outfit they're wearing, they won't change into another one.

If someone is really enjoying the meal they've ordered, they won't send it back and order something else.

WTF is your point Captain Obvious???


----------



## Pluto2

ThePheonix said:


> What does your page say Hope? I figure I'm the contrarian when I say sometimes the BS spouse has contributed to mischief. I've met a number of gals who most likely wouldn't have cheated if their old man would have got their act together.
> I still want to know if I'm right when I say that most woman won't cheat if they have a high romantic interest in their husbands. Either I'm wrong or the gals don't want to go there. What say you?


Your use of the term "gal" is a bit degrading. I bet you were unaware that the term's use in this country has roots in slavery. African-American men – got boy and son – to strip them of adulthood and dignity of family bonds – it removed their status as “productive adults” Women had to have an equivalent and gal became the word of choice, a term used to strip women of adulthood and dignity.

I am a woman who never cheated on her husband because I took a vow.


----------



## Healer

thepheonix said:


> every woman i've known in this category, except two, had a low romantic interest in their husbands. My question is still, "do women with a high romantic interest cheat on their husbands?". It appears that the woman you speak of in the above post would have a low romantic interest. Am i wrong? (tell you what dawg, you need to consider yourself lucky that bunch hit the road)


So what?? How is this news?


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> Hope, I think what you are saying is that cheating is a weakness in the character of the cheater. I agree with that. We all have different weaknesses. We react to stress differently.


Cheating is a choice that people make. Whether it's because they have a 'weak' character (whatever that is) or because they have no conscience or because they have weighed the pros and cons and decided it's worth the risk - it's something THEY did.

My husband did the latter. He wasn't getting enough 'intimacy' (his word), so he made a conscious choice to seek it out, first on the internet, then when that thrill wore off, in person. He thought he could do his thing while he waited for me to be done with kids and everything else that was occupying me, then stop when he and I were in a better place together. We still had sex a couple f times a week, so it wasn't about that. It was about the emotional connection.

Telling BS's that they need to examine their part in why they were cheated on is the same as telling them it's their fault. Many BS's already think it's their fault - telling them this makes things worse. The ONLY way to heal after being cheated on is to NOT blame yourself for it. Whether you divorce or not, but especially if you don't divorce. At the same time. BS's DO need to examine their role in the marriage honestly, and make improvements in themselves and in the relationship. The two MUST be separated in a BS's mind if they have any hope whatsoever of truly healing, and not just forgetting.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Why do you keep speaking for me? Why do you think you know my thoughts and my mindset?


Uhhhh because you keep typing them here over and over and over. Lol.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> What about her, should she look at what she can do to prevent it from happening again?
> 
> Please don't answer with "she should make him..." or "she should expect him to..." or anything with he or him in it.


Of course she should. She should look at what she did and analyze why. She needs to have a plan on how to deal with her temptations. First and foremost, she needs, imo, to be completely transparent and accountable to him.

If she wants to stay with him, she better be feeling great sorrow. What I said the other day about her crawling to him and begging, while I agree was probably too harsh of language, may not in a figurative way be too far off the mark. 

Cheating is just not the right way to handle dissatisfaction. Talking transparently is. Deciding to leave him is. But cheating is not. It will bring sorrow for all concerned.

A man does not have any obligation to take back a cheating wife. But some want to. They have to decide how they want to handle it. Some may rely only on control techniques. Others may combine them with introspection. I fear a lack of introspection may result in a reoccurrence.

We all have our bias, and mine is that one time cheating could be forgiven. Past that, I just would not feel comfortable recommending it. But some here have done it. The guy did. He seems very happy with his wife now. Maybe I am too conservative.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> No, it is you who cannot find any evidence of what I supposedly said.





jld said:


> I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


I can do this all day.




> We do not have to lay blame.


Then quit laying it.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> One of the most trite assertions I've read on here. What a revelation!
> 
> Here are some more:
> 
> A person won't eat if they're full.
> 
> If a person loves their job, they won't quit and find a different one.
> 
> If someone feels really comfy in the outfit they're wearing, they won't change into another one.
> 
> If someone is really enjoying the meal they've ordered, they won't send it back and order something else.
> 
> WTF is your point Captain Obvious???


The point, _dude_, is that a lot of us guys get complacent and forget that one.

Myself included.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Often the person that stops working on the marriage is the one that cheats, not the other way around. I think that's where the confusion comes in. One person cheats, and it's assumed they cheated because the OTHER person stopped working on the marriage, when *all the evidence *points to the person that cheated being the one that stopped working on the marriage.


What evidence? The BS's opinion?


----------



## vellocet

russell28 said:


> What about her, should she look at what she can do to prevent it from happening again?


Silly goose. Don't you know by now, it isn't on her. Its on him.

His fault, she just gets to sit back and reap the benefits of infidelity extortion.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> The point, _dude_, is that a lot of us guys get complacent and forget that one.
> 
> Myself included.


Thanks _dude_! His point was that a lot of guys get complacent and forget that if they don't maintain their wife's romantic interest they'll get cheated on?

And that happened to you? You were cheated on because you didn't hold your wife's romantic interest? Shame on you.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> I can do this all day.
> 
> That does not say you should take her back. It just says I think there is more hope. You are reading something into it that is not there.
> 
> Then quit laying it. I have no control over how you choose to interpret my opinions, vell.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Silly goose. Don't you know by now, it isn't on her. Its on him.
> 
> His fault, she just gets to sit back and reap the benefits of infidelity extortion.


See post 231.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> A man does not have any obligation to take back a cheating wife. But some want to. They have to decide how they want to handle it. Some may rely only on control techniques. Others may combine them with introspection. I fear a lack of introspection may result in a reoccurrence.


If the man's lack of introspection results in a second act of infidelity, you are by implication, blaming him for the second as well as the first act. This is blaming the BS. You do understand that, correct?


----------



## vellocet

JLD, you do like to try to sidestep don't you.

Point is, your gender bias is obvious.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Thanks _dude_! His point was that a lot of guys get complacent and forget that if they don't maintain their wife's romantic interest they'll get cheated on?
> 
> And that happened to you? You were cheated on because you didn't hold your wife's romantic interest? Shame on you.


Listen, like a lot of guys I let myself get complacent, got a gut, lost muscle mass, and stopped romancing my wife.

Then I wondered why she was suddenly more interested in going out with her friends rather than staying at home with me.

No she didn't cheat on me. At least I don't think so.

My story is up here. And shame on you for shaming guys that forget they need to keep romancing their wives and being attractive.

It doesn't excuse affairs. But it also doesn't excuse not trying to keep your relationship healthy.

Nothing in this world is safe. Especially human relationships. It doesn't mean you don't have them, but it does mean that you keep your eyes open and try to stack the odds in your favour.

Think of it like defensive driving. It's not your fault if you get t-boned in an intersection because someone ran the red light. But the fact that it's the other person's fault doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your head on a swivel to avoid being t-boned at all.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> If the man's lack of introspection results in a second act of infidelity, you are by implication, blaming him for the second as well as the first act. This is blaming the BS. You do understand that, correct?


I do not see it as blaming, but I can see why you do. I do not look at the emotion in it. I am looking at it without emotion. I just assume he wants the cheating to stop, and I am trying to help him.

He can always just leave her and not bother with any introspection. 

If you believe that he has no influence on her decision to cheat, then it makes sense not to ask him to do anything. I think his actions may influence her decision. That is why I suggest he look at why the cheating happened.


----------



## Hope1964

Guys, we might as well give up. The brick wall is in reality made of one-way transparent aluminum. Salient points are being ignored even when specifically pointed out for a reply. Active listening has been thrown out the window - it's more like we've been playing a game of telephone, except that the garbled result comes about from the intentional filter that's in place.


----------



## jld

We do not see things the same way. Therefore, my opinions must be wrong?


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> Listen, like a lot of guys I let myself get complacent, got a gut, lost muscle mass, and stopped romancing my wife.
> 
> Then I wondered why she was suddenly more interested in going out with her friends rather than staying at home with me.
> 
> No she didn't cheat on me. At least I don't think so.
> 
> My story is up here. And shame on you for shaming guys that forget they need to keep romancing their wives and being attractive.
> 
> It doesn't excuse affairs. But it also doesn't excuse not trying to keep your relationship healthy.
> 
> Nothing in this world is safe. Especially human relationships. It doesn't mean you don't have them, but it does mean that you keep your eyes open and try to stack the odds in your favour.
> 
> Think of it like defensive driving. It's not your fault if you get t-boned in an intersection because someone ran the red light. But the fact that it's the other person's fault doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your head on a swivel to avoid being t-boned at all.


I never said anything about not keeping relationships healthy. :scratchhead:

And the "shame on you" remark was sarcastic, _dude_. I, unlike some people here, do not believe that "guys who forget they need to keep romancing their wives and being attractive." deserve to be cheated on, or that they brought it on themselves, _dude_.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Therefore, my opinions must be wrong?


They certainly are horrifying.


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> They certainly are horrifying.


Because they do not validate yours?


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> And the "shame on you" remark was sarcastic, _dude_. I, unlike some people here, do not believe that "guys who forget they need to keep romancing their wives and being attractive." deserve to be cheated on, or that they brought it on themselves, _dude_.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> What evidence? The BS's opinion?


No, this is like having an opinion on if water is wet. You can have the opinion that water is dry, but that won't make it dry.. it's still wet.

The person that's cheating has proven they aren't working on the marriage. The evidence is in that they are cheating. Unless of course you believe that cheating is a viable way to work out marriage problems.


----------



## russell28

marduk said:


> The point, _dude_, is that a lot of us guys get complacent and forget that one.
> 
> Myself included.


How about women, do lots of women get complacent and forget that one too? Do men want to be romanced too, or do we just need someone to cook and clean for us? Is this unique to one sex? This need to feel romantic towards your partner, and getting complacent in marriage?


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Because they do not validate yours?


No, because the mental and logical gymnastics you are using to validate your opinion.


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> We do not see things the same way. Therefore, my opinions must be wrong?


Your opinions are misguided and damaging


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> No, this is like having an opinion on if water is wet. You can have the opinion that water is dry, but that won't make it dry.. it's still wet.
> 
> The person that's cheating has proven they aren't working on the marriage. The evidence is in that they are cheating. Unless of course you believe that cheating is a viable way to work out marriage problems.


No, it is not. Cheating is not the way to solve marital problems.

What I would question is whether or not the BH ever worked on the marriage at all. As Marduk mentioned, there can be some complacency involved.

Bottom line, many BH do not want to take any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. It is all on the WW. That is really the only acceptable answer to most people here.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> No, because the mental and logical gymnastics you are using to validate your opinion.


We come from a different perspective. I don't come from a 50/50 perspective.


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> Bottom line, many BH do not want to take any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. It is all on the WW. That is really the only acceptable answer to most people here.


Have you even been reading what I've been typing for the last however many days?????????


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> We come from a different perspective. I don't come from a 50/50 perspective.


I believe you there.

You come from the men are dogs when they cheat, and women cheat because of the men perspective


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> Have you even been reading what I've been typing for the last however many days?????????


No, she doesn't. She'll sidestep and try to make it into something else. I find it great entertainment.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> No, it is not. Cheating is not the way to solve marital problems.


Meeting a cheating wife's deepest emotional needs are. We all know that.


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> How about women, do lots of women get complacent and forget that one too? Do men want to be romanced too, or do we just need someone to cook and clean for us? Is this unique to one sex? This need to feel romantic towards your partner, and getting complacent in marriage?


I can't change what my wife does, but I can make it more likely that she wants to do something.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> No, it is not. Cheating is not the way to solve marital problems.
> 
> What I would question is whether or not the BH ever worked on the marriage at all. As Marduk mentioned, there can be some complacency involved.
> 
> Bottom line, many BH do not want to take any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. It is all on the WW. That is really the only acceptable answer to most people here.


Bull, people here say marriage is for both parties to be responsible for, and an affair is for the person that chose to have an affair to be responsible for. Once the WW is caught cheating, they have basically destroyed the marriage. So how can they at that point tell the BS how they weren't a good spouse and be credible? 

What you want is for the person that was deceived to claim responsibility for the deception.

You also want to ignore that the person that is cheating, is doing much more damage to the relationship than 'being complacent' was doing. They not only are being complacent, then are now abusing the partner and making up reasons why they are deserving of being abused. I will never blame the abused person for deserving to be abused, even if they did something as horrible as becoming complacent in a marriage.


----------



## russell28

marduk said:


> I can't change what my wife does, but I can make it more likely that she wants to do something.


Wow, that sounds like an amazing idea, making her want to do something. I'll need to try that, I never thought about trying to make it more likely that she'd want to do something. 

I want her to do a corn maze with me, what do you suggest, I put something at the end of the maze that she likes? She likes cheese...


----------



## vellocet

Russ, she already backpedalled to try and qualify her statement that although the man should cowtow and meet a cheating wife's deepest emotional needs to keep her from being a cheater, that the cheating wife also needs to be contrite.

So my question is, that's it? That she just be contrite and remorseful? Nothing else to prove that she won't cheat again? Because unless the BH is a total lapdog and completely gaslighted, it isn't going to cut it.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> Meeting a cheating wife's deepest emotional needs are. We all know that.


Solves *her *problems...


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Bull, people here say marriage is for both parties to be responsible for, and an affair is for the person that chose to have an affair to be responsible for. Once the WW is caught cheating, they have basically destroyed the marriage. So how can they at that point tell the BS how they weren't a good spouse and be credible?
> 
> What you want is for the person that was deceived to claim responsibility for the deception.
> 
> You also want to ignore that the person that is cheating, is doing much more damage to the relationship than 'being complacent' was doing. They not only are being complacent, then are now abusing the partner and making up reasons why they are deserving of being abused. I will never blame the abused person for deserving to be abused, even if they did something as horrible as becoming complacent in a marriage.


We need a discussion of power dynamics in marriage. I think abuse happens when the person with greater power does not use that power in the best interest of the marriage.

I think many women see the husband as having greater power. If he uses it for his own pleasures (becomes complacent), she may feel abused.

And that still does not justify cheating on him!


----------



## Duguesclin

Reading some of the past posts, I am wondering about the definition of abuser. Abuse exists when there is a power imbalance. When the one with the power is taking advantage of the one who does not have the power.

This is clear in a parent/child relationship. In a married couple it is not so obvious.

A man beating his wife because he is physically more powerful is clearly abuse. A woman cheating on her husband is not that obvious to me, unless the power is clearly on the woman side because the husband gave her that power.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> *Wow, that sounds like an amazing idea, making her want to do something. I'll need to try that, I never thought about trying to make it more likely that she'd want to do something. *
> 
> I want her to do a corn maze with me, what do you suggest, I put something at the end of the maze that she likes? She likes cheese...


I know you are being sarcastic, but that may indeed have been helpful to you.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> What evidence? The BS's *opinion*?


And right there is the problem with this debate. 

There is no "evidence". It's ALL opinion. The WS's opinion, the BS's opinion etc.

It's the old adage of 3 sides to the story. WS's, BS's and the truth.

The problem that keeps getting neglected, because as a species, we have to find these big deep answers to moral problems, is that the WS cheats because they put a higher priority on their personal desires and wants than to be an honorable person.

It is in their make up that allows them to make that choice.

We keep hearing about WW's are starved of a deep intimacy or romance. We hear about WH's looking for more and/or different sex. The WW wants to feel protection/romance..insert emotional need not being met...How many wifes are missing the same things and yet don't stray? Let's go one step further...how many HUSBANDS are missing the same things and don't stray?

my OPINION is that most Wayward's allow a romantic view of life to transcend reality. How often do we hear this. BH " We've been married for 5-10 years, have 2 young children and then out of the blue..." I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the number one romance killer in a marriage.....IS KIDS. Welcome to reality. If you want romance and that need is so intense that you'll risk your marriage and family over it....DON'T HAVE KIDS. This whole "you deserve EVERYTHING in life" mentality that has become so prevalent is idiotic. 

Do I get as much sex as I want...NO. Does my wife...NO. We have an 8 month old who is JUST starting to sleep through the night. Do we have as much romance and intimacy as we want...NO. Would either of us cheat...NO. 1. We're not selfish, I can give up a weekly BJ to make sure my family is taken care of, together and healthy. My wife can give up a date night in order to care for a sick child without her mind wandering. We put the needs of the family as a UNIT above individual needs. PS, this mentality of "women need emotion" and "men need physical sex" is WAY over stated. Men need emotional connection as much as women and women need a good shagging as much as men.


----------



## Hope1964

What is all this drivel about POWER in the relationship? We are not all in D/s relationships here. You guys bring POWER and ACTIVE LISTENING and MEETING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONAL NEEDS up in every thread you participate in. It's like you read a book or something.


----------



## Hope1964

Dad&Hubby said:


> Men need emotional connection as much as women and women need a good shagging as much as men.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Duguesclin said:


> Reading some of the past posts, I am wondering about the definition of abuser. Abuse exists when there is a power imbalance. When the one with the power is taking advantage of the one who does not have the power.
> 
> This is clear in a parent/child relationship. In a married couple it is not so obvious.
> 
> A man beating his wife because he is physically more powerful is clearly abuse. A woman cheating on her husband is not that obvious to me, unless the power is clearly on the woman side because the husband gave her that power.


So what is it when a small woman gets physically violent on a repeated basis against her larger and stronger husband. Where he doesn't fight back for a number of reasons?

PS yes this does happen.

PSS Webster's dictionary (PS I don't see the word or concept of "power" there)

Definition of ABUSE
1
: a corrupt practice or custom
2
: improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse <drug abuse>
3
obsolete : a deceitful act : deception
4
: language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5
: physical maltreatment
See abuse defined for English-language learners »
Examples of ABUSE

He subjected his wife to physical and emotional abuse.
the buying of votes and other election abuses
She was subjected to every term of abuse her boss could think of.
a torrent of verbal abuse
The prisoner hurled abuse at the judge.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Reading some of the past posts, I am wondering about the definition of abuser. Abuse exists when there is a power imbalance. When the one with the power is taking advantage of the one who does not have the power.
> 
> This is clear in a parent/child relationship. In a married couple it is not so obvious.
> 
> A man beating his wife because he is physically more powerful is clearly abuse. A woman cheating on her husband is not that obvious to me, unless the power is clearly on the woman side because the husband gave her that power.


Have you ever been cheated on?

You keep talking about 'power' in a relationship. You seem to think that because you have perceived 'power' in your relationship, that you are somehow immune to being cheated on?

Am I correct? I have to admit it's hard to take you and your wife seriously. You both seem to have a warped sense of what is right and what is wrong. You also seem to both want to project responsibility for ones actions onto other people.

Edit... a marriage isn't a parent child thing, both people are adults.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> What is all this drivel about POWER in the relationship? We are not all in D/s relationships here. You guys bring POWER and ACTIVE LISTENING and MEETING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONAL NEEDS up in every thread you participate in. It's like you read a book or something.


It is just how we view relationships, I guess. Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there.


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> What is all this drivel about POWER in the relationship?


Its an illogical diversion from the idea that men cheat = bad, women cheat because men are bad.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Because they do not validate yours?


Yeeeeah, that's it.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Its an illogical diversion from the idea that men cheat = bad, women cheat because men are bad.


I do not think it is illogical or a diversion at all. I think power dynamics are fundamental to every relationship.


----------



## Duguesclin

Dad&Hubby said:


> So what is it when a small woman gets physically violent on a repeated basis against her larger and stronger husband. Where he doesn't fight back for a number of reasons?


You can see abuse everywhere. To the letter of the word, you may be right. But then there are various level of abuse. I would not put a mother beating her child at the same level of a woman cheating on her fully grown and financially independent spouse.


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> Yeeeeah, that's it.


Thought so.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> No, it is not. Cheating is not the way to solve marital problems.
> 
> What I would question is whether or not the BH ever worked on the marriage at all. As Marduk mentioned, there can be some complacency involved.
> 
> Bottom line, many BH do not want to take any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. It is all on the WW. That is really the only acceptable answer to most people here.


I would disagree somewhat. Reading a lot of threads in CWI, you see MANY BH's START by accepting blame. Their first reaction is to try and win (and NICE) their WW's back. They try and do MORE.

I also disagree that only the BH became complacent. Complacency in a marriage is usually brought on by both. I can't imagine a situation where a WW is sitting there, making romantic dinners, giving her BH massages, giving him lots of sex, asking for date nights...and he just ignores her completely and utterly. 

What I DO see is BOTH parties let bits and pieces slip away. I DO see a WW not keeping herself fit, UNTIL she becomes interested in another man. Then we hear the "9 months ago, she starting hitting the gym hard and losing weight, and she looked AMAZING." (ps the BH recognizing that the WW is attractive and I'm sure telling her the same thing....IE NOT ignoring her emotional and romantic needs) But the losing weight by the WW, by TOTAL COINCIDENCE, times directly with an EA or PA starting.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> You can see abuse everywhere. To the letter of the word, you may be right. But then there are various level of abuse. I would not put a mother beating her child at the same level of a woman cheating on her fully grown and financially independent spouse.


It's different kind of abuse.

I shouldn't need to spell this out to an adult, but in a child parent relationship the dynamic is totally different.

Two grown adults, that take vows, promise to be faithful, then one starts to abuse the trust and take advantage of the other. I won't go into the details of the abuse, the gas lighting, the blame shifting, we see it play out here daily. Any BS here knows about the abuse, we don't need to hear how we were abused because we brought it on ourselves. 

Your powers aren't strong enough to cut through the fog of bull.. try harder, focus...


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> Have you ever been cheated on?
> 
> You keep talking about 'power' in a relationship. You seem to think that because you have perceived 'power' in your relationship, that you are somehow immune to being cheated on?
> 
> Am I correct? I have to admit it's hard to take you and your wife seriously. You both seem to have a warped sense of what is right and what is wrong. You also seem to both want to project responsibility for ones actions onto other people.
> 
> Edit... a marriage isn't a parent child thing, both people are adults.


No, I have not been cheated on and I am not immune to be cheated on.

I live in the country where you make your own destiny. I understand that sometimes sh!t happens but I cannot imagine I do not have the power to shape my future, and this includes how I can influence my wife's behavior.


----------



## italianjob

Hope1964 said:


> What is all this drivel about POWER in the relationship? We are not all in D/s relationships here. You guys bring POWER and ACTIVE LISTENING and MEETING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONAL NEEDS up in every thread you participate in. It's like you read a book or something.


Some kind of new age psychobabble or something like that, I guess...
Probably the way jld convinced her husband that HE is the dominant while she takes all the important decisions 

Just kidding...


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> It's different kind of abuse.
> 
> I shouldn't need to spell this out to an adult, but in a child parent relationship the dynamic is totally different.
> 
> Two grown adults, that take vows, promise to be faithful, then one starts to abuse the trust and take advantage of the other. I won't go into the details of the abuse, the gas lighting, the blame shifting, we see it play out here daily. Any BS here knows about the abuse, we don't need to hear how we were abused because we brought it on ourselves.
> 
> Your powers aren't strong enough to cut through the fog of bull.. try harder, focus...


Russell, I understand you are hurt, like many on this thread. The point JLD and I are trying to make is that the BS should also look inward. Just blaming will not work. It does not mean the cheater was right. You are trying to make it black and white. It is not.


----------



## learning to love myself

jld said:


> Is he working now? Do you have sex now?


He isn't working, When he got laid off, he just gave up as the economy was in the toilet and depression set in. Now I know he wants to but he hasn't worked in so long he fears know one will hire him.

Sex is great now, its anywhere from every other day to 3 times a day.


----------



## Hope1964

I've said it before and I will say it again: If you have never been cheated on, or been a cheater, how can you POSSIBLY have a CLUE what you are talking about in CWI???????????????


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Duguesclin said:


> You can see abuse everywhere.


Yes, we hear about financial abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse in marriages. I would contend that infidelity qualifies as definitely mental (think of the mental anguish you see in a BS), if not physical because of the risks to STD's (plus there's the withholding of sex that sometimes goes along with infidelity). Financial abuse if the WS is using the BS for money without putting the proper return back into the marriage, or worse, when there's a child as a product from someone else that a BH doesn't know.



Duguesclin said:


> To the letter of the word, you may be right. But then there are various level of abuse. I would not put a mother beating her child at the same level of a woman cheating on her fully grown and financially independent spouse.


Bingo. You're 100% correct.

But it still doesn't mean it's not a FORM of abuse.


----------



## Hope1964

Duguesclin said:


> Russell, I understand you are hurt, like many on this thread. The point JLD and I are trying to make is that the BS should also look inward. Just blaming will not work. It does not mean the cheater was right. You are trying to make it black and white. It is not.


It seems that you have the same problem as your wife - not reading what people are actually writing.

Why don't you grab hold of all this power that you have and open your eyes here, and then teach your wife what you've learned?? Why don't you allow the words that we're writing to penetrate your mind and be heard? Why don't you practice this active listening????


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> I've said it before and I will say it again: If you have never been cheated on, or been a cheater, how can you POSSIBLY have a CLUE what you are talking about in CWI???????????????


Perhaps those with adamant beliefs that say they have never been cheated on or cheated are not telling us everything. Or saying they haven't been subject to these issues in an effort to appear impartial, even though things like gender bias are all too obvious.


----------



## Duguesclin

Man, there are definitely a lot of people hurting...


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Duguesclin said:


> The point JLD and I are trying to make is that the BS should also look inward. Just blaming will not work. It does not mean the cheater was right. You are trying to make it black and white. It is not.


Yes, this is a great point. A BS is going to need to learn from this experience, whether or not they remain with the WS. And (and here's the key word) EVENTUALLY, a BS will be able to do that.

But immediately after a DDay, all eyes are, rightfully, going to fall on the WS.

To fix the marriage going forward (assuming R), yes both the WS and the BS will have to shoulder some burdens...but only AFTER the marriage is in R mode. To get to R mode, the infidelity needs to be dealt with.

Picture an Operating room for a minute, the nurse makes a mistake and the patient is going down hill. The doctor then also makes a mistake and the patient is going further down hill. Then the anesthesiologist is drunk and completely screws up the dosages and kills the patient.....who's going to have to shoulder the burden at first. Yes the Doctor and Nurse are going to have to learn from their mistakes in order to not have future patients possibly die. But the anesthesiologist is going to be wholly blamed for THIS death.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Duguesclin said:


> Man, there are definitely a lot of people hurting...


My episode of cheating is decades ago. I'm actually not hurting. I'm THANKFUL of what my ex did at this point. I have 2 amazing children from her...additionally, if I hadn't walked the path I did, I would've never met my current wife. Which is everything EXCEPT hurt.

But it's nothing like throwing something like your statement out there as a way to ATTEMPT to diminish what the dissenting people are saying. Very poorly played sir.

Please don't say "it was simply an observation" either, because then you're dismissive and insulting intelligence.

What I CAN see is how you and JLD will become frustrated because some of the responses to you both have gone beyond just the content of this argument. Hopefully we can reel those statements back in, both to you and from you.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> No, *I have not been cheated on *and I am not immune to be cheated on.
> 
> I live in the country where you make your own destiny. I understand that sometimes sh!t happens but I cannot imagine I do not have the power to shape my future, and this includes how I can influence my wife's behavior.


How did I know? 

Seriously, from the way your wife talks.. don't be shocked if she's already cheating on you. Come back and talk to me when you find out about it. Then we can have a serious discussion where both parties understand the subject matter.


----------



## ThePheonix

russell28 said:


> Often the person that stops working on the marriage is the one that cheats, not the other way around.


Goes to my point that they have lost most romantic interest. Why should they keep working on the marriage when they are no longer interested?


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Man, there are definitely a lot of people hurting...


You're powerful AND observant. Did you expect a party of happy individuals on the coping with infidelity forums? 

Since you've never been through this being cheated on thing, let me enlighten you a bit. It hurts.

People ask why sometimes we get angry, why we seem bitter. Here's why folks, people like this guy. He has never been cheated on, and he's here to patronize us. Teach us how to be strong like him, teach us that we too can not be cheated on if we just work hard to influence our wives.


----------



## ThePheonix

Healer said:


> WTF is your point Captain Obvious???


The title of the thread, "Why men cheat v. Why women cheat". Other than that, fill in the missing letters for the missing message. E_t s_ _t. If needed, request a special Captain Obvious decoder ring.


----------



## russell28

ThePheonix said:


> Goes to my point that they have lost most romantic interest. Why should they keep working on the marriage when they are no longer interested?


Which asks another question...

What came first, the lack of interest, or them not continuing to work on the marriage?

Why did they lose romantic interest, was it them, or you? Clue, the answer isn't always the same. Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other, sometimes it's a combo. It's not always the mans fault.


----------



## russell28

Dad&Hubby said:


> Yes, this is a great point. A BS is going to need to learn from this experience, whether or not they remain with the WS. And (and here's the key word) EVENTUALLY, a BS will be able to do that.
> 
> But immediately after a DDay, all eyes are, rightfully, going to fall on the WS.
> 
> To fix the marriage going forward (assuming R), yes both the WS and the BS will have to shoulder some burdens...but only AFTER the marriage is in R mode. To get to R mode, the infidelity needs to be dealt with.
> 
> Picture an Operating room for a minute, the nurse makes a mistake and the patient is going down hill. The doctor then also makes a mistake and the patient is going further down hill. Then the anesthesiologist is drunk and completely screws up the dosages and kills the patient.....who's going to have to shoulder the burden at first. Yes the Doctor and Nurse are going to have to learn from their mistakes in order to not have future patients possibly die. But the anesthesiologist is going to be wholly blamed for THIS death.


A BS knows they have to look at themselves, it's not something that needs to be told to them. Especially in an arrogant and condescending way by a person that has no idea of what they speak due to lack of experience with the subject matter.


----------



## ThePheonix

Pluto2 said:


> Your use of the term "gal" is a bit degrading.


Not my intention. Sorry if it offended you, et.al. And I did not know it was used to refer to African American woman in a derogatory manner. I'll refrain from using it again.


----------



## clipclop2

Getting upset about the term "gal" seems a bit over the top. It has been absorbed into the language pretty well if you ask me.


----------



## learning to love myself

Dad&Hubby said:


> Yes, this is a great point. A BS is going to need to learn from this experience, whether or not they remain with the WS. And (and here's the key word) EVENTUALLY, a BS will be able to do that.
> 
> But immediately after a DDay, all eyes are, rightfully, going to fall on the WS.
> 
> To fix the marriage going forward (assuming R), yes both the WS and the BS will have to shoulder some burdens...but only AFTER the marriage is in R mode. To get to R mode, the infidelity needs to be dealt with.
> 
> 
> I so agree with you, Its only recently that my husband has stopped being so angry and has looked within himself and excepted the role he played in are marriage falling apart. In no way is this him accepting any blame for my cheating, nor would he ever.
> 
> For me I had to realize that pointing out the things he did that brought me to the point that I made the choice to cheated would not be an acceptable.
> 
> It was very hard to give him the closure he needed when everything out of my mouth made him furious, I knew only my actions, my love, the truth and a lot of time would work.
> 
> Pointing out his flaws was like pouring gas on a fire.


----------



## michzz

learning to love myself said:


> Yes, this is a great point. A BS is going to need to learn from this experience, whether or not they remain with the WS. And (and here's the key word) EVENTUALLY, a BS will be able to do that.
> 
> But immediately after a DDay, all eyes are, rightfully, going to fall on the WS.
> 
> To fix the marriage going forward (assuming R), yes both the WS and the BS will have to shoulder some burdens...but only AFTER the marriage is in R mode. To get to R mode, the infidelity needs to be dealt with.
> 
> 
> I so agree with you, Its only recently that my husband has stopped being so angry and has looked within himself and excepted the role he played in are marriage falling apart. In no way is this him accepting any blame for my cheating, nor would he ever.
> 
> For me I had to realize that pointing out the things he did that brought me to the point that I made the choice to cheated would not be an acceptable.
> 
> It was very hard to give him the closure he needed when everything out of my mouth made him furious, I knew only my actions, my love, the truth and a lot of time would work.
> 
> *Pointing out his flaws was like pouring gas on a fire.*


Very true statement, particularly this insight at the end (bolded).


----------



## russell28

Someone that has never experienced infidelity perhaps can't grasp the concept of how much a betrayal makes you look deeply at yourself. The very first thing most BS do after being cheated on is blame themselves. They don't need third parties telling them they did something wrong, and they sure don't want to hear it from the WS at that point in time. They can do the self awareness thing, and most probably come to the conclusion that they really weren't all that horrible of a spouse.. the stuff was blown out of proportion because the cheating spouse was at a point in life where they wanted to cheat for whatever reasons they came up with to justify it. 

In my case it was more than likely just that we were together since we were 16 and my wife wanted to experience something else.. thought she was missing out on life, getting old, self pity party, poor role models, guy at work flirting felt good... everyone was cheating.. Not really much to do with me, I was doing my thing like I always did, it was just getting harder and harder for me to stay connected to my wife, but I fought to stay hard enough where she's with me right now fighting and putting up with me. She pushed me away.. I never gave up. So yes, I do get annoyed with these types of conversations.. how men push wives into cheating. Especially when the peanut gallery chimes in with 0 experience in infidelity and a 'you weren't a tough enough guy' mantra... makes you look for the middle finger emoticon.. they really should add one of those.


----------



## ThePheonix

russell28 said:


> Which asks another question...
> 
> What came first, the lack of interest, or them not continuing to work on the marriage?



Here's something that warrants some thought. I've had two wives. With the first one I worked, to no avail, on the marriage. In reality, I was trying to raise the dead. After looking around I realized some women are just not compatible with some men. They enter the relationship with good intentions but like my grand daddy would say, hell is full of good intentions and desires). No amount of "work" is going to fix the problem. The couple doen't belong together. 
With my second wife, neither of us has ever had to "work" on anything. We have never been angry with the other more than a few hours. From this marriage I have formulated the following opinion. If it doesn't come easy and requires a lot of work, you need to let it go. You don't fall in love because of "work" and with the right person, you don't have to work to stay in love. Or maybe the "work" part is so natural it doesn't feel like work.


----------



## Machiavelli

Pluto2 said:


> *Your use of the term "gal" is a bit degrading. I*


Pure Bravo Sierra.



ThePheonix said:


> Not my intention. Sorry if it offended you, et.al. And I did not know it was used to refer to African American woman in a derogatory manner. I'll refrain from using it again.


"Gal" is 1700's Cøckney for "girl." That's an accent in a particular area of London. Not the best neighborhoods perhaps.

The stuff people come up with.


----------



## Machiavelli

Those of you who use to make espionage trips down the rathole of DCool know that most women cheat for the excitement and the raw sex. Science agrees.


----------



## vellocet

Mach!!! Welcome back brother!


----------



## learning to love myself

[I fought to stay hard enough where she's with me right now fighting and putting up with me. She pushed me away.. I never gave up. .[/QUOTE]

This shows just how strong you are. 

Nothing justifies cheating!

Yes life can be hard and for some very hard, we become complacent and afraid to be the person we were when our spouse fell in love with us. 

I'm no different then anyone else who has a mortgage, children, financial worries, etc. except I took a problem that I could no longer face and Exacerbated it by cheating.

I know there are many cheaters who will never own what they did nor do they think they have to, I also believe one day it will hit them like a ton of bricks, it could take until their death bed but I know it will and the reality of the pain they cause will be huge. 

It hit me hard and fast and I felt the pain my husband was going through to a point of feeling that me being alive would keep his pain fresh, I struggled with self hatred and truly believed my family would be better off without me. 

This caused more pain to my husband as now he felt he needed to make sure I didn't harm myself but also maintain his anger toward me. 

Its a long road and unless someone has been there they cant truly understand the different emotions one goes through from day to day.


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> Wow, that sounds like an amazing idea, making her want to do something. I'll need to try that, I never thought about trying to make it more likely that she'd want to do something.
> 
> I want her to do a corn maze with me, what do you suggest, I put something at the end of the maze that she likes? She likes cheese...


Shiny things seem to do the trick for my wife.


----------



## loyallad

learning to love myself said:


> [I fought to stay hard enough where she's with me right now fighting and putting up with me. She pushed me away.. I never gave up. .


This shows just how strong you are. 

Nothing justifies cheating!

Yes life can be hard and for some very hard, we become complacent and afraid to be the person we were when our spouse fell in love with us. 

I'm no different then anyone else who has a mortgage, children, financial worries, etc. except I took a problem that I could no longer face and Exacerbated it by cheating.

I know there are many cheaters who will never own what they did nor do they think they have to, I also believe one day it will hit them like a ton of bricks, it could take until their death bed but I know it will and the reality of the pain they cause will be huge. 

It hit me hard and fast and I felt the pain my husband was going through to a point of feeling that me being alive would keep his pain fresh, I struggled with self hatred and truly believed my family would be better off without me. 

This caused more pain to my husband as now he felt he needed to make sure I didn't harm myself but also maintain his anger toward me. 

Its a long road and unless someone has been there they cant truly understand the different emotions one goes through from day to day.[/QUOTE]

I truly believe that cheaters eventually have to answer for their actions. Maybe not immediately but at some point in time this will come back to them.

Really tired of hearing about the "power dynamic" in the marriage. Always thought marriage is a partnership. If one lorded over the other eventually resentment would set in among other things. If two strong willed people are married to each other how does one "browbeat" their will over the other to do what they want? My WW is childish and self centered, wouldn't matter how much I tried to force my will on her she still would have fell for POSOM bulls*#t and had the A. I exercised my power in not busting POSOM's face because my kids mean so much more to me that going to jail just to exercise some "power" was not worth it. And trust me I'm more than man enough to do the job and POSOM is just scum enough to have me arrested.


----------



## russell28

ThePheonix said:


> Here's something that warrants some thought. I've had two wives. With the first one I worked, to no avail, on the marriage. In reality, I was trying to raise the dead. After looking around I realized some women are just not compatible with some men. They enter the relationship with good intentions but like my grand daddy would say, hell is full of good intentions and desires). No amount of "work" is going to fix the problem. The couple doen't belong together.
> With my second wife, neither of us has ever had to "work" on anything. We have never been angry with the other more than a few hours. From this marriage I have formulated the following opinion. If it doesn't come easy and requires a lot of work, you need to let it go. You don't fall in love because of "work" and with the right person, you don't have to work to stay in love. Or maybe the "work" part is so natural it doesn't feel like work.


My marriage, and relationship with my wife is more like the second one you describe.. it wasn't while she was cheating, but for the most part, that was us.


----------



## ThePheonix

She blind sided you Dawg. Some folks are loyal and some folks ain't. Anyway you cut, you're better off than this woman's husband. Think about how disappointed he was on the way down.

*"A woman in the US state of Montana who admitted shoving her husband off a cliff eight days into their marriage has been sentenced to 30 years in prison."*


----------



## Ripper

Article about a study from the bastion of liberal feminist ideas, the Huffington Post. Was put up yesterday. Shockingly, a majority of the women in the study were simply pursuing sex.

Cheating Women Are Looking For Sex, Not Divorce, Study Says

That's just weird.


----------



## russell28

ThePheonix said:


> She blind sided you Dawg. Some folks are loyal and some folks ain't. Anyway you cut, you're better off than this woman's husband. Think about how disappointed he was on the way down.
> 
> *"A woman in the US state of Montana who admitted shoving her husband off a cliff eight days into their marriage has been sentenced to 30 years in prison."*


In her defense, 8 days in, he missed a few of her deepest needs, so... He might want to look at what exactly he did to make her unhappy... oh wait...


----------



## russell28

Ripper said:


> Article about a study from the bastion of liberal feminist ideas, the Huffington Post. Was put up yesterday. Shockingly, a majority of the women in the study were simply pursuing sex.
> 
> Cheating Women Are Looking For Sex, Not Divorce, Study Says
> 
> That's just weird.


There's always the PHd that chimes in with the "women are broken and not getting needs met" theory, because hey, they read it in the books. Yea, the need for some strange...


----------



## ThePheonix

russell28 said:


> In her defense, 8 days in, he missed a few of her deepest needs, so... He might want to look at what exactly he did to make her unhappy... oh wait...


Well russ, at least most of the guys on this sites gets a redo with a new and possibly better chick. As far as needs met, everyone cheats because their needs, as they perceive them, are not met. People commit multiple types of crime for the same reason.


----------



## over20

Hope1964 said:


> What is all this drivel about POWER in the relationship? We are not all in D/s relationships here. You guys bring POWER and ACTIVE LISTENING and MEETING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONAL NEEDS up in every thread you participate in. It's like you read a book or something.


THIS IS THE BEST POST ON THIS THREAD 


:allhail:


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> We do not see things the same way. Therefore, my opinions must be wrong?


You are not defending your opinions in any way except to say 'I believe this'.

Which is fine. But what you believe is:

Men cheat for the most shallow of reasons

Men are not worth trying to forgive, because they cheat for shallow reasons (no back up data to support this)

Men are either emotionally powerful brutes who generally cause their wives to cheat because they don't care enough to 'meet their deep emotional needs'

Or men are submissives, looking for a domme woman to 'fix them' causing most 'normal' women to be so disgusted by them that they cheat or leave their pathetic asses (your tone is QUITE clear)

Women naturally cheat due to a lack of male leadership and neglect.

You further asserted that a man should work hard to stay attractive to his wife...without any reciprocal requirement to the wives. 

It is only when backed into a corner with very BASIC fairness arguments that you are forced to acknowledge that 'I guess...mumble mumble...women should be remorseful if they cheat and IF they are really repentant, should maybe think about what they did and look for forgiveness'. It is like pulling teeth. But as soon as a new thread starts, you are right back to your gender offensive opinions.

You have a small piece of the truth. Men sometimes set the stage for problems which GROW into infidelity...but you know...a lot of poor people AREN'T thieves. A lot of people in unhappy marriages don't cheat either.

If your 'opinions' almost always garner rancor from the men...maybe instead of putting them all down as thin skinned shlubs, you might THINK about why they are offended. Maybe it isn't them.

edited to add: I have offensive opinions about men...women...politics...marriage...dogs...you name it. And while I believe I have a piece of the truth, sometimes uncomfortably so, I don't put their offense on them. It's on me for having opinions which may be offensive.


----------



## jld

Machiavelli said:


> Those of you who use to make espionage trips down the rathole of DCool know that most women cheat for the excitement and the raw sex. Science agrees.


From the article linked above by Mach:

_Their findings conformed to common stereotypes of men as promiscuous and women as choosy. The men, who averaged about 42 years old, advertised "anything goes" more than twice as often as women, while the women, who averaged about 39, sought long-term relationships about two-thirds more than men._


----------



## jld

Ripper said:


> Article about a study from the bastion of liberal feminist ideas, the Huffington Post. Was put up yesterday. Shockingly, a majority of the women in the study were simply pursuing sex.
> 
> Cheating Women Are Looking For Sex, Not Divorce, Study Says
> 
> That's just weird.


From the article linked above by Ripper:

_Of course, it's worth noting that this sample isn't quite representative -- the findings are only generalizable to the women using ******************. But it is an interesting pattern nonetheless, Bill Doherty, PhD, Professor of Family Social Science at the University of Minnesota, told The Huffington Post. Doherty, who wasn't involved in the study, puts forward another reason for these women's need for passion, not divorce: They were looking for a separate sexual life in order to feel lusted after and attractive, which is indicative of deeper, emotional problems in a marriage.

"For women, it's more about not being appreciated, not feeling desired," Doherty said. "I think, in some ways, bodies are much less important in long-term sexual relationships than the mind and the heart."_


----------



## Pluto2

JLD,
By now I would hope that you recognize the vast majority of posters are rejecting the validity of your article, so quoting from it won't change anyone's mind. A valid, rational argument might, but maybe not.


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> You are not defending your opinions in any way except to say 'I believe this'.
> 
> Which is fine. But what you believe is:
> 
> Men cheat for the most shallow of reasons Often, yes.
> 
> Men are not worth trying to forgive, because they cheat for shallow reasons (no back up data to support this) Did you read the article in the opening post?
> 
> Men are either emotionally powerful brutes who generally cause their wives to cheat because they don't care enough to 'meet their deep emotional needs'. I do think meeting your wife's deepest emotional needs is the main way to avoid her having affairs. And don't forget that different women have different needs. I needed a very smart man. Some women want a very muscular man, or a man with a lot of money. If you cannot meet her deepest needs, it will save you both a lot of heartache if you break it off with her.
> 
> Or men are submissives, looking for a domme woman to 'fix them' causing most 'normal' women to be so disgusted by them that they cheat or leave their pathetic asses (your tone is QUITE clear) I would not be happy with a submissive man. I could not be with a man who needed me to heal him if I had an affair. I just could not be with a needy guy. I just do not have what he would need. But fortunately plenty of other women do.
> 
> I cannot be the domme in a relationship. I do not have the emotional self-control required.
> 
> Women naturally cheat due to a lack of male leadership and neglect. There needs to be a predisposition to cheating, I think. Not every neglected woman will cheat. There will usually be some consequence to the man, though, for neglecting her.
> 
> You further asserted that a man should work hard to stay attractive to his wife...without any reciprocal requirement to the wives. Wives probably realize that if they do not meet a man's needs, he will leave them, or withdraw, or otherwise not meet her needs. I would be surprised if they did not, but perhaps it is possible.
> 
> It is only when backed into a corner with very BASIC fairness arguments that you are forced to acknowledge that 'I guess...mumble mumble...women should be remorseful if they cheat and IF they are really repentant, should maybe think about what they did and look for forgiveness'. It is like pulling teeth. But as soon as a new thread starts, you are right back to your gender offensive opinions. If she wants to be taken back, she will likely have to do some groveling. I think it depends on the maturity level of the man.
> 
> For sure, she needs to see how serious an offense cheating is, how damaging to the trust of a partner.
> 
> But I think if she cheats, there are serious issues in the relationship that both have to address. The point is to heal the relationship, if they both want to, not to assign blame. And divorce is always an option. If the issues cannot be resolved, it is likely the healthiest option.
> 
> You have a small piece of the truth. Men sometimes set the stage for problems which GROW into infidelity...but you know...a lot of poor people AREN'T thieves. A lot of people in unhappy marriages don't cheat either. I think you need a predisposition to cheat. Not everyone is going to cheat, no matter how unmet the needs. Different people have different weaknesses.
> 
> If your 'opinions' almost always garner rancor from the men...maybe instead of putting them all down as thin skinned shlubs, you might THINK about why they are offended. Maybe it isn't them. Offended just means hurt, and usually refers to pride.
> 
> edited to add: I have offensive opinions about men...women...politics...marriage...dogs...you name it. And while I believe I have a piece of the truth, sometimes uncomfortably so, I don't put their offense on them. It's on me for having opinions which may be offensive. If you are offended, ask yourself why.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> JLD,
> By now I would hope that you recognize the vast majority of posters are rejecting the validity of your article, so quoting from it won't change anyone's mind. A valid, rational argument might, but maybe not.


I quoted from the article that man linked, not from the one in my opening post.


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> No, I have not been cheated on...


Hmm. You _sure_ about that?


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> Russell, I understand you are hurt, like many on this thread. The point JLD and I are trying to make is that the BS should also look inward. Just blaming will not work. It does not mean the cheater was right. You are trying to make it black and white. It is not.


Let me get this straight - you and your wife claim neither has cheated, and yet you're both on here attempting to dominate a thread about cheating, in a thread full of people who, unlike you, actually have first hand experience with infidelity?


----------



## Duguesclin

Healer said:


> Hmm. You _sure_ about that?


Yes.


----------



## staystrong

JCD: "Women naturally cheat due to a lack of male leadership and neglect."

jld's article: "another reason for these women's need for passion, not divorce: They were looking for a separate sexual life in order to feel lusted after and attractive, which is indicative of deeper, emotional problems in a marriage."

I believe the most typical female registrant for Ashly ******* is a mid-30's woman who has been married 4 years and has at least one daughter. 

So take the population in general. I assume the married woman dated her husband for a couple of years. Most likely there is a hormonal surge. Mid-30's, she's off the pill. Husband is in involved parenting, good beta provider stuff, leaders of the family, but maybe there's a decrease in his overall masculinity or sex in general due to responsibilities. Other men (single men, powerful men, married men) become objects of desire or the aggressors.

Domestic life breeds routine, not necessarily neglect. Maybe the women are also neglecting their men, which in turn leads to frustration and neglect by men. Vicious cycle. 

I think the article has validity in that sense. I bet most of the women who fell into an affair were NOT seeking divorce. They just felt disappointed in their men and could not vocalize it.


----------



## staystrong

Healer said:


> Let me get this straight - you and your wife claim neither has cheated, and yet you're both on here attempting to dominate a thread about cheating, in a thread full of people who, unlike you, actually have first hand experience with infidelity?


Yeah, are the two of you just gloating or what?


----------



## Duguesclin

Healer said:


> Let me get this straight - you and your wife claim neither has cheated, and yet you're both on here attempting to dominate a thread about cheating, in a thread full of people who, unlike you, actually have first hand experience with infidelity?


How do we dominate a thread when we are only 2 people?


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> Man, there are definitely a lot of people hurting...


Man, are you ever condescending.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> From the article linked above by Ripper:
> 
> _Of course, it's worth noting that this sample isn't quite representative -- the findings are only generalizable to the women using ******************. But it is an interesting pattern nonetheless, Bill Doherty, PhD, Professor of Family Social Science at the University of Minnesota, told The Huffington Post. Doherty, who wasn't involved in the study, puts forward another reason for these women's need for passion, not divorce: They were looking for a separate sexual life in order to feel lusted after and attractive, which is indicative of deeper, emotional problems in a marriage.
> 
> "For women, it's more about not being appreciated, not feeling desired," Doherty said. "I think, in some ways, bodies are much less important in long-term sexual relationships than the mind and the heart."_


The Dr., that wasn't involved in the study, probably read the same book you and your husband read.

He was gas lit by the women that want him to believe that they don't like sex, they just want attention... After getting caught cheating, what do most women do? They say they weren't happy, they weren't appreciated, because it sound better than " i was too flirty and went too far and then i got horny for him and went for it " They'd sound like a s word and no woman wants that, so it's all about image. A man would be a stud, a woman not so much..


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Yeah, are the two of you just gloating or what?


Gloating about what? 

Every marriage is vulnerable to affairs. That is why I urge transparency and the meeting of the woman's emotional needs. I also do not advise women to withhold sex.


----------



## Healer

russell28 said:


> Seriously, from the way your wife talks.. don't be shocked if she's already cheating on you.


QFT. Something ain't right...


----------



## Healer

ThePheonix said:


> The title of the thread, "Why men cheat v. Why women cheat". Other than that, fill in the missing letters for the missing message. E_t s_ _t. If needed, request a special Captain Obvious decoder ring.


Lol. Thanks Mr. Wizard. I'd report you for that attack but I so look forward to more of your riveting revelations.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> JCD: "Women naturally cheat due to a lack of male leadership and neglect."
> 
> jld's article: "another reason for these women's need for passion, not divorce: They were looking for a separate sexual life in order to feel lusted after and attractive, which is indicative of deeper, emotional problems in a marriage."
> 
> I believe the most typical female registrant for Ashly ******* is a mid-30's woman who has been married 4 years and has at least one daughter.
> 
> So take the population in general. I assume the married woman dated her husband for a couple of years. Most likely there is a hormonal surge. Mid-30's, she's off the pill. Husband is in involved parenting, good beta provider stuff, leaders of the family, but maybe there's a decrease in his overall masculinity or sex in general due to responsibilities. Other men (single men, powerful men, married men) become objects of desire or the aggressors.
> 
> Domestic life breeds routine, not necessarily neglect. Maybe the women are also neglecting their men, which in turn leads to frustration and neglect by men. Vicious cycle.
> 
> I think the article has validity in that sense. I bet most of the women who fell into an affair were NOT seeking divorce. They just felt disappointed in their men and could not vocalize it.


It is not my article, it is Ripper's.

For sure, neglect on either side is going to breed resentment. And that is where transparency and acting on what you learn is so important.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Gloating about what?
> 
> Every marriage is vulnerable to affairs. That is why I urge transparency and the meeting of the woman's emotional needs. I also do not advise women to withhold sex.


That's fine, but the discussions on this board are post-facto of needs not being met. I don't think it helps a BS to hear they weren't meeting emotional needs and they are dealing with a crisis. It feeds their self-doubt, and it feeds a WS's justifications or her "too little, too late" belief. If people are in R, then it's very appropriate for them to talk openly about it. I don't know, it sounds like you are talking preventative medicine and we're dealing with open heart surgery here.


----------



## Healer

ThePheonix said:


> Goes to my point that they have lost most romantic interest. Why should they keep working on the marriage when they are no longer interested?


First sentence - yes, again, you point out something so painfully honest that it's almost comical. This is not news to _anybody_.

Second sentence - because they took a vow. You either work on it, or get a divorce, then pursue the strange.

But thanks for restating your "point" again. Maybe a few more times and we'll get it. What is it again? A woman cheats because she has really high romantic interest in her husband? No wait...


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> The Dr., that wasn't involved in the study, probably read the same book you and your husband read.
> 
> He was gas lit by the women that want him to believe that they don't like sex, they just want attention... After getting caught cheating, what do most women do? They say they weren't happy, they weren't appreciated, because it sound better than " i was too flirty and went too far and then i got horny for him and went for it " They'd sound like a s word and no woman wants that, so it's all about image. A man would be a stud, a woman not so much..


Well, we have three different articles linked on this thread that are saying similar things. None of them say that every woman cheats for the same reason. I think one said 80%. That is significant, but there is still room for exceptions.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> That's fine, but the discussions on this board are post-facto of needs not being met. I don't think it helps a BS to hear they weren't meeting emotional needs and they are dealing with a crisis. It feeds their self-doubt, and it feeds a WS's justifications or her "too little, too late" belief. If people are in R, then it's very appropriate for them to talk openly about it. I don't know, it sounds like you are talking preventative medicine and we're dealing with open heart surgery here.


Did you see this thread?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/215201-how-handle-renewed-intimacy.html

This man acted right away with empathy and taking responsibility. And now his wife is seeking him out. I think he managed things very well.


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> How do we dominate a thread when we are only 2 people?


Good question. More importantly - how do you dominate a thread when you are only 2 people who know nothing about the subject matter?


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> It is not my article, it is Ripper's.
> 
> For sure, neglect on either side is going to breed resentment. And that is where transparency and acting on what you learn is so important.


My main point is that women hit a certain nexus in their marriage which may cause them to act out and cross the line.

Therefore I question the issue of male leadership. If a wife in that nexus has an EA and leads to a PA, is the lack of male leadership or neglect at fault? 

More likely it's a lack on the female's part to reject attention, to be able to say no, to slide into a 'friendship', etc.

Basically, I'm just not buying the WW bull. 

I feel we go over this time and time again on the board. The H is 'clueless' because his wife is using every little trick to keep him clueless. There was some window of timing in which she may have shown some signs of dissatisfaction and maybe those were shrugged off and maybe they were attended to. Point is, if the WW is still in contact with the EA partner, it just ramps up the mating game.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Gloating about what?
> 
> Every marriage is vulnerable to affairs. That is why I urge transparency and the meeting of the *woman's emotional needs*. I also do not advise women to withhold sex.


What else do you "*urge*"? Good grief.


----------



## russell28

Healer said:


> Man, are you ever condescending.


He proclaims in his sig that he's a strong man woman handler, but from what I see.. his woman has him wrapped around her finger. She lets him think he has 'power' (she allows him to have it), yet he just regurgitates all her thoughts and validates everything she says. Yes honey, you're right honey, anything you say honey.. I'm the boss... I'll rush to the thread you created and agree with your points to help you out. Whatever you need.. don't want to miss one of your needs!

She's ripe to cheat the second she wants to, all she has to do is blow something he's not doing out of proportion.. she can say he didn't wear enough deodorant and that made him kind of smelly and not as attractive. He might be pouring it on, so much deodorant that they can smell him three blocks away, but she'll use that one because it's all she has. He needed to wear more, and he just stopped trying.

Some stronger guy will come along smelling nice.. and she'll be all set with the justifications. Dug's not meeting my deepest emotional needs, bam.. I can flirt with this new guy and get my needs met. I'll just say I was broken, it's what happens, the man pushed me to it because men are bad and women are great.

Someone mentioned earlier.. the "man song". That's this guy.

They should write a book together teaching couples about how to be happy by going to infidelity forums and letting everyone know how much better you are than they are. Hey, look at us, we don't cheat and we don't get cheated on. You people are screwed up, but we're awesome! All you have to do to not be cheated on in one page, give the man power. Hell.. half a page.

Brilliant... thank god they are helping us all figure it out. 
/sarcastic rant


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> Good question. More importantly - how do you dominate a thread when you are only 2 people who know nothing about the subject matter?


We are just having a conversation here, Healer. Since no marriage is immune from affairs, it pays to educate yourself, discuss, and put preventive measures, like transparency, in place.


----------



## Healer

russell28 said:


> He proclaims in his sig that he's a strong man woman handler, but from what I see.. his woman has him wrapped around her finger. She lets him think he has 'power' (she allows him to have it), yet he just regurgitates all her thoughts and validates everything she says. Yes honey, you're right honey, anything you say honey.. I'm the boss... I'll rush to the thread you created and agree with your points to help you out. Whatever you need.. don't want to miss one of your needs!
> 
> *She's ripe to cheat the second she wants to*, all she has to do is blow something he's not doing out of proportion.. she can say he didn't wear enough deodorant and that made him kind of smelly and not as attractive. He might be pouring it on, so much deodorant that they can smell him three blocks away, but she'll use that one because it's all she has. He needed to wear more, and he just stopped trying.
> 
> Some stronger guy will come along smelling nice.. and she'll be all set with the justifications. Dug's not meeting my deepest emotional needs, bam.. I can flirt with this new guy and get my needs met. I'll just say I was broken, it's what happens, the man pushed me to it because men are bad and women are great.
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier.. the "man song". That's this guy.
> 
> They should write a book together teaching couples about how to be happy by going to infidelity forums and letting everyone know how much better you are than they are. Hey, look at us, we don't cheat and we don't get cheated on. You people are screwed up, but we're awesome! All you have to do to not be cheated on in one page, give the man power. Hell.. half a page.
> 
> Brilliant... thank god they are helping us all figure it out.
> /sarcastic rant


She's certainly set it up for her to be sitting pretty when it (if it hasn't already) happens. And indeed - he's already been conditioned to take the blame when dday comes rollin' 'round.

Masterful, really.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> My main point is that women hit a certain nexus in their marriage which may cause them to act out and cross the line.
> 
> Therefore I question the issue of male leadership. If a wife in that nexus has an EA and leads to a PA, is the lack of male leadership or neglect at fault?
> 
> More likely it's a lack on the female's part to reject attention, to be able to say no, to slide into a 'friendship', etc.
> 
> Basically, I'm just not buying the WW bull.
> 
> I feel we go over this time and time again on the board. The H is 'clueless' because his wife is using every little trick to keep him clueless. There was some window of timing in which she may have shown some signs of dissatisfaction and maybe those were shrugged off and maybe they were attended to. Point is, if the WW is still in contact with the EA partner, it just ramps up the mating game.


For sure, a wife does herself no favors by having an affair. And if you want to leave it all on your wife, that is certainly up to you.

For husbands who do think they can help prevent an affair, I would urge them to tie her to him with bonds of love by meeting her deepest emotional needs. If you are the first person she thinks to run to, because she feels so safe and loved and trusts so much in you, she is unlikely to run to another man. My opinion, anyway.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Did you see this thread?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/215201-how-handle-renewed-intimacy.html
> 
> This man acted right away with empathy and taking responsibility. And now his wife is seeking him out. I think he managed things very well.


Have you read that thread?

I wouldn't define his situation as success at all.

Sounds like she managed fine.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> We are just having a conversation here, Healer. Since no marriage is immune from affairs, it pays to educate yourself, discuss, and put preventive measures, like transparency, in place.


That's what I mean - you're attempting to "educate" us, but your views and philosophies are all about blame shifting to the man when he gets cheated on. And you state it as if it were scientific fact. _And _you claim to not have cheated.

You're arrogant and condescending, and your assertions are damaging.


----------



## jld

We are just as vulnerable as anyone else, Russell. If anything, participating here reinforces our belief that affairs are damaging.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Did you see this thread?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/215201-how-handle-renewed-intimacy.html
> 
> This man acted right away with empathy and taking responsibility. And now his wife is seeking him out. I think he managed things very well.


Here is a quote, from that thread, from that man:

_"oh, and I don't blame myself for this. My crap is my crap. Her crap is her crap.

I didn't make her do this. This is her fault."_

It sounds like he's strong and will stand up for himself. He hopefully won't let his wife blame shift or gas light him. I hope you stay out of his thread and don't help his wife sweep her affair under the rug, blame shift him or gas light him. Leave it to the people that understand about infidelity please. He doesn't want to hear how he caused his wife to cheat. He doesn't want to hear how he's not strong like your powerful husband.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> We are just as vulnerable as anyone else, Russell. If anything, participating here reinforces our belief that affairs are damaging.


Wow.
So you view us poor damaged BS as lab rats for your "theories".


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> For sure, a wife does herself no favors by having an affair. And if you want to leave it all on your wife, that is certainly up to you.
> 
> For husbands who do think they can help prevent an affair, I would urge them to tie her to him with bonds of love by meeting her deepest emotional needs. If you are the first person she thinks to run to, because she feels so safe and loved and trusts so much in you, she is unlikely to run to another man. My opinion, anyway.


I feel like I'm getting drilled in the head. Lobotomized. 

Most people don't walk around thinking about how to prevent affairs.

This is great advice for people before affairs, I will agree with you.

I put the decision to cheat on my wife, yes. She of course initially said I pushed her into it. What else would she say? Had we reconciled and go through all that, she probably would have changed her tune. I think for her reconciliation meant instant cheap forgiveness, whereas it really means you've to rebond somehow someway. She wasn't up for that.. she ran back to him after the first email he sent about wanting to drive off the road.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> How do we dominate a thread when we are only 2 people?


By trying to blow a bunch of smoke up our collective behinds. 

Flame bait it's known as in the forum industry.


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> That's what I mean - you're attempting to "educate" us, but your views and philosophies are all about blame shifting to the man when he gets cheated on. And you state it as if it were scientific fact. _And _you claim to not have cheated.
> 
> You're arrogant and condescending, and your assertions are damaging.


We are educating _ourselves_ here, Healer. Reading here really _is_ preventive medicine. And discussing issues helps clarify what is truthful, and therefore helpful, and what is not.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Well, we have three different articles linked on this thread that are saying similar things. None of them say that every woman cheats for the same reason. I think one said 80%. That is significant, but there is still room for exceptions.


They all validate what I wrote. That women have done a better job of controlling the image of why they have affairs through blame shifting and gas lighting. You've bought it. So did they.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Wow.
> So you view us poor damaged BS as lab rats for your "theories".


We are all lab rats in the lab called Life, Pluto. No one is immune from problems.

And we are all damaged, in our own ways. And I am pretty sure we all have our own theories.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> We are educating _ourselves_ here, Healer. Reading here really _is_ preventive medicine. And discussing issues helps clarify what is truthful, and therefore helpful, and what is not.


Then read, read and read some more. Before you write, stop and think about the people on the other end of the text. If we really want or need to hear what you have to say. If you're actually helping us, or helping to convince yourselves that you're not going to stray on each other. Ask yourselves, why you're really in this topic debating it.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> They all validate what I wrote. That women have done a better job of controlling the image of why they have affairs through blame shifting and gas lighting. You've bought it. So did they.


Whenever we deny truth, Russell, we just hurt ourselves. Looking at truth, however painful, is ultimately freeing.

I know it is hard. It is hard for me to be truthful with myself, too. But if I am not, if I lie to myself, I limit my own happiness. I don't want to do that.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Whenever we deny truth, Russell, we just hurt ourselves. Looking at truth, however painful, is ultimately freeing.
> 
> I know it is hard. It is hard for me to be truthful with myself, too. But if I am not, if I lie to myself, I limit my own happiness. I don't want to do that.


What truths do you think Russell is denying?


----------



## staystrong

jld,

Do you let men flirt with you?

What do you draw the line at?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Then read, read and read some more. Before you write, stop and think about the people on the other end of the text. If we really want or need to hear what you have to say. If you're actually helping us, or helping to convince yourselves that you're not going to stray on each other. Ask yourselves, why you're really in this topic debating it.


I think the only way to prevent affairs in any marriage is to understand why they happen. I don't want one to happen in mine, and I do not want that for anyone else, either. So I think hard about why they happen, and read about it. And then I discuss with other people.

I have learned a lot here that has challenged my beliefs. I did not realize so many men rely on women for emotional support after a woman's affair. To be honest, I did not realize men leaned on women so much, period. 

It was good for me to be taught that, though. It can only help me understand the world better. And that is always a good thing, to understand the world better.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> staystrong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, are the two of you just gloating or what?
> 
> 
> 
> Gloating about what?
> 
> Every marriage is vulnerable to affairs. That is why I urge transparency and the meeting of the woman's emotional needs. I also do not advise women to withhold sex.
Click to expand...

How about meeting _ each other's _ emotional needs... and women aren't the only ones to withhold sex. If advising, I'd suggest you advise BOTH men and women not to withhold. Don't focus on the way YOUR dynamic works. Look at the individual relationship and advise accordingly. Actually... if there has been infidelity, I think you should refer to someone who know wtf he/she is talking about.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## staystrong

There's no doubt some people are bitter on this board. Not healed. But also they are lucid in many ways.

The men who are not as bitter are the ones who initially divorced their wives. The ones that did not give in to her deepest emotional need to be fawned upon by two men.


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> He proclaims in his sig that he's a strong man woman handler, but from what I see.. his woman has him wrapped around her finger. She lets him think he has 'power' (she allows him to have it), yet he just regurgitates all her thoughts and validates everything she says. Yes honey, you're right honey, anything you say honey.. I'm the boss... I'll rush to the thread you created and agree with your points to help you out. Whatever you need.. don't want to miss one of your needs!
> 
> She's ripe to cheat the second she wants to, all she has to do is blow something he's not doing out of proportion.. she can say he didn't wear enough deodorant and that made him kind of smelly and not as attractive. He might be pouring it on, so much deodorant that they can smell him three blocks away, but she'll use that one because it's all she has. He needed to wear more, and he just stopped trying.
> 
> Some stronger guy will come along smelling nice.. and she'll be all set with the justifications. Dug's not meeting my deepest emotional needs, bam.. I can flirt with this new guy and get my needs met. I'll just say I was broken, it's what happens, the man pushed me to it because men are bad and women are great.
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier.. the "man song". That's this guy.
> 
> They should write a book together teaching couples about how to be happy by going to infidelity forums and letting everyone know how much better you are than they are. Hey, look at us, we don't cheat and we don't get cheated on. You people are screwed up, but we're awesome! All you have to do to not be cheated on in one page, give the man power. Hell.. half a page.
> 
> Brilliant... thank god they are helping us all figure it out.
> /sarcastic rant


Russell, This is a conversation and people reading it can make their own mind. You and some others obviously do not agree with what JLD or I have written.

Russell, I can only imagine how hurt I would be if JLD cheated on me. It would show a big character flaw in her, but I would have to look at myself as well and understand how I contributed to the situation.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> What truths do you think Russell is denying?


I only skimmed MMSLP. But one thing I read either in there, or heard here, is that men need to hold the attraction of their women. 

I would not have seen it that way. It seems so primitive. But the more I think about it, as politically incorrect as that statement seems, I think it is probably true.

I don't think anyone wants that to be true. But I think it probably is. And I would be interested in hearing a refutation of it.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Whenever we deny truth, Russell, we just hurt ourselves. Looking at truth, however painful, is ultimately freeing.
> 
> I know it is hard. It is hard for me to be truthful with myself, too. But if I am not, if I lie to myself, I limit my own happiness. I don't want to do that.


Because I don't believe your truth, doesn't mean I'm having a hard time looking at truth..


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I think the only way to prevent affairs in any marriage is to understand why they happen. I don't want one to happen in mine, and I do not want that for anyone else, either. So I think hard about why they happen, and read about it. And then I discuss with other people.
> 
> I have learned a lot here that has challenged my beliefs. I did not realize so many men rely on women for emotional support after a woman's affair. To be honest, I did not realize men leaned on women so much, period.
> 
> It was good for me to be taught that, though. It can only help me understand the world better. And that is always a good thing, to understand the world better.


Yeah, I don't think many WW's really understand how men are hard-wired to protect their wives, their children, their property. And how they expect fidelity and respect as a form of love. So there's a feeling of abject failure for many men, even if they refuse to be trickle-truthed, blame shifted, etc. I know I felt that I had not adequately 'protected' my wife against an outside threat, crazy as that may sound. Which is why there is a whole school of thought on 'becoming a better husband' in order to 'win her back'. There's a religious basis to it.. and I think those guys are usually doomed to fail hard.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Because I don't believe your truth, doesn't mean I'm having a hard time looking at truth..


For sure, we may all have our own truths. That is why people say, "Speak your truth." You may have something I can learn from, and vice versa. If we stop talking, neither of us will learn anything.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Russell, This is a conversation and people reading it can make their own mind. You and some others obviously do not agree with what JLD or I have written.
> 
> Russell, I can only imagine how hurt I would be if JLD cheated on me. It would show a big character flaw in her, but I would have to look at myself as well and understand how I contributed to the situation.


You can't even begin to imagine. 

I've actually lived it, and am living it. I have asked myself those questions. I have looked at myself, I don't need some self proclaimed strong guy telling me the obvious. Especially when he's speaking from a place where he has no experience.

I also don't need to hear his man hating wife give me her skewed opinions about how it must have been my fault, because it usually is... 

So don't tell me what you think you would do, I don't care. Until it happens to you, you have no idea what you would do.

You're that "you know what *I *would've done.." guy.


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> ...but I would have to look at myself as well and understand how I contributed to the situation.


"Certified Strong Woman Handler"

Hysterical.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I only skimmed MMSLP. But one thing I read either in there, or heard here, is that men need to hold the attraction of their women.
> 
> I would not have seen it that way. It seems so primitive. But the more I think about it, as politically incorrect as that statement seems, I think it is probably true.
> 
> I don't think anyone wants that to be true. But I think it probably is. And I would be interested in hearing a refutation of it.


Attraction is what brought them together in the first place. Not only physical match-up, but all the other qualities that attract. But yes, concepts such as 'sex rank' are indisputably true.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Yeah, I don't think many WW's really understand how men are hard-wired to protect their wives, their children, their property. And how they expect fidelity and respect as a form of love. So there's a feeling of abject failure for many men, even if they refuse to be trickle-truthed, blame shifted, etc.*I know I felt that I had not adequately 'protected' my wife against an outside threat, crazy as that may sound. *Which is why there is a whole school of thought on 'becoming a better husband' in order to 'win her back'. There's a religious basis to it.. and I think those guys are usually doomed to fail hard.


I don't think it sounds crazy. I think it is nature. And I think what might be crazy is to deny nature.

I think expecting fidelity and respect is normal. But I think, realistically, they are only ever _earned._

I know, so unfair. It _is _unfair. But I think it is reality. And we only ever hurt ourselves by denying reality.

What I am trying to tell men is that by meeting their wife's deepest emotional needs, they are likely saving themselves a whole lot of heartbreak in the long run. 

And divorce is always an option. No one is obligated to take on the challenge of working through things.


----------



## staystrong

russell28 said:


> You can't even begin to imagine.
> 
> I've actually lived it, and am living it. I have asked myself those questions. I have looked at myself, I don't need some self proclaimed strong guy telling me the obvious. Especially when he's speaking from a place where he has no experience.
> 
> I also don't need to hear his man hating wife give me her skewed opinions about how it must have been my fault, because it usually is...
> 
> So don't tell me what you think you would do, I don't care. Until it happens to you, you have no idea what you would do.
> 
> You're that "you know what *I *would've done.." guy.


Well, maybe it wasn't you. Maybe it was just the 'relationship'. JK


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> Yes.


I'd look deeper.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> We are just having a conversation here, Healer. Since no marriage is immune from affairs, it pays to educate yourself, discuss, and put preventive measures, like transparency, in place.


I understand being attentive to a relationship, otherwise the relationship will fail.

By why is it my responsibility to keep someone I'm with from being a wh0re?


----------



## Duguesclin

Healer said:


> "Certified Strong Woman Handler"
> 
> Hysterical.


Healer, it is meant to be funny. JLD is a strong woman, but, even if you doubt it, I can manage her.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Attraction is what brought them together in the first place. Not only physical match-up, but all the other qualities that attract. But yes, concepts such as 'sex rank' are indisputably true.


I think holding a wife's attraction is mostly emotional, not physical. Again, it is meeting her deepest needs. And the only way to know what they are is to really study her and learn what makes her tick. You have to know her inside and out.

I know it is a lot of work, but I think it would pay off.

And again, no one is obligated to do it. And divorce is always an option.


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> By why is it my responsibility to keep someone I'm with from being a wh0re?


Oh man, that made me lol.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> I understand being attentive to a relationship, otherwise the relationship will fail.
> 
> By why is it my responsibility to keep someone I'm with from being a wh0re?


It only is if you want to keep her. And you do not have to if you do not want to. Every man has the right to divorce his wife at any time for any reason in America.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I only skimmed MMSLP. But one thing I read either in there, or heard here, is that men need to hold the attraction of their women.
> 
> I would not have seen it that way. It seems so primitive. But the more I think about it, as politically incorrect as that statement seems, I think it is probably true.
> 
> I don't think anyone wants that to be true. But I think it probably is. And I would be interested in hearing a refutation of it.


Ah, now I know the book you read. Figured as much...


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> ...but, even if you doubt it, I can manage her.


Like a 7-11?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Ah, now I know the book you read. Figured as much...


I did not read it, only skimmed it, but I should. It just seemed pretty mild to me. 

Nevertheless, it gets alluded to a lot here, and I should do more than just skim it.

Most books have at least a few interesting points, even if one does not agree with them overall.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Healer, it is meant to be funny. JLD is a strong woman, but, even if you doubt it, I can manage her.


How do you 'manage' a woman, read the macho man books and do what they say you should do?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> How do you 'manage' a woman, read the macho man books and do what they say you should do?


He has not read any of the "macho man" books. He does not even know what MMSLP is. And I do not think it is very macho, anyway. Pretty darn mild, if you ask me.

I asked him to read The Way of the Superior Man, because I read part of it and liked it. But it has been months, and I think he is on chapter 18. I am on chapter 32.

Dug is on vacation this week, or he would not be posting much at all. He works long hours, often abroad. I feel really lucky when he spends time with me on TAM, and does some of the reading I ask. I know how busy he is. 

And even when he is with me, we have five children who need his attention, too. I am really lucky he is on TAM with me at all.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> He has not read any of the "macho man" books. He does not even know what MMSLP is. And I do not think it is very macho, anyway. Pretty darn mild, if you ask me.
> 
> I asked him to read The Way of the Superior Man, because I read part of it and liked it. But it has been months, and I think he is on chapter 18. I am on chapter 32.
> 
> Dug is on vacation this week, or he would not be posting much at all. He works long hours, often abroad. I feel really lucky when he spends time with me on TAM, and does some of the reading I ask. I know how busy he is.
> 
> And even when he is with me, we have five children who need his attention, too. I am really lucky he is on TAM with me at all.


You should allow your husband to speak for himself. I want to know how he manages you.

He works long hours, that's dangerous. Many men get cheated on because they spend too much time away from home.

Edit: I should have changed my question to him to, if he reads the books _you tell him to read_, and do what they tell him to do.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I think holding a wife's attraction is mostly emotional, not physical. Again, it is meeting her deepest needs. And the only way to know what they are is to really study her and learn what makes her tick. You have to know her inside and out.
> 
> I know it is a lot of work, but I think it would pay off.
> 
> And again, no one is obligated to do it. And divorce is always an option.


I don't disagree with you. 
It just hurts more than words can describe. 
It's as if the AP got a free pass to do everything I would've liked to have done. Everything WE deserved to get to do. 
That's the injustice.. it's not like I can have an affair with my wife. 

However, I refer to my earlier point that she was in the "nexus". When wives start cheating as if there's no tomorrow. It's an epidemic. 
Stings to know another man got the "best" she wanted to give, and that they became a "team". Even my affair with her was not as good as theirs. Double whammy.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> Whenever we deny truth, Russell, we just hurt ourselves. Looking at truth, however painful, is ultimately freeing.
> 
> I know it is hard. It is hard for me to be truthful with myself, too. But if I am not, if I lie to myself, I limit my own happiness. I don't want to do that.


JLD, first let me thank you for holding strong to your opinions. The best ideas and thoughts generally stem from debate. 

That said,

Please keep in mind one VERY important thing about every article I've ever read about "why someone cheats" (man or woman).

Their "empirical data" is always based on surveys. They ask the cheater why they cheated. Now you have to look deeper into psychology here and not at the face value answer.

MOST cheaters aren't going to blame themselves. They aren't going to take responsibility for poor decisions and the damage they cause. This isn't just an infidelity issue. This is human nature. When someone is smoking outside and throws their cigarette which catches a pile of leaves on fire and burns down the house, the first thing the smoker will say is "Who put that pile of leaves there." 

Or think of a mistake at work, many people will look for a "scapegoat" or at least a partial scapegoat. Very rare is the person who takes full and unadulterated responsibility for their errors. Most humans will look to avoid taking full responsibility. And those are MINOR offenses. What do you think goes on inside the psyche of a cheater?

There's a reason there's a "script" that includes blameshifting, trickle truth, gas lighting etc. Because it's what most cheaters do. Well do you think that ends with the survey they take for these "studies"....of course not. So the survey is flawed. It's based on shaded truths, misperceptions or outright lies

EVERY woman knows, somewhere in her psyche, how to garner sympathy. You learn this from the first break up you had.

"Why are you crying?"
"Johnny took back his class ring and gave it to Joannie"
"That loser! You're better off without him. He's probably a cheat. I always thought he treated you badly. He never gave you the respect you deserved. I bet he wasn't even a good kisser...etc. etc."

PS this isn't just a female thing. Men have done the same thing.

"Dude why are you crying?"
"I just saw Joannie with Johnny's class ring"
"Oh man, she wasn't that special, I'm taking you out and finding some new tail. You can find someone hotter."

And men tend to focus on the physical side of their support...hence why you see the answers from male cheaters.

They've already been programmed those answers before ever cheating.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> He has not read any of the "macho man" books. He does not even know what MMSLP is. And I do not think it is very macho, anyway. Pretty darn mild, if you ask me.
> 
> I asked him to read The Way of the Superior Man, because I read part of it and liked it. But it has been months, and I think he is on chapter 18. I am on chapter 32.
> 
> Dug is on vacation this week, or he would not be posting much at all. He works long hours, often abroad. I feel really lucky when he spends time with me on TAM, and does some of the reading I ask. I know how busy he is.
> 
> And even when he is with me, we have five children who need his attention, too. I am really lucky he is on TAM with me at all.


Elaborate on mild vs macho. 

Which aspects are you referring to?


----------



## Marduk

I don't get why you guys are going back and forth at each other like this, and why there's so much vitriol about the whole thing.

The fact is, humans cheat. Not everyone, but some.

For all kinds of reasons. Because they can, because they're horny, because their spouse pissed them off, because they're not getting attention, because they want out of the relationship, because they're not attracted to the other person, because they want excitement... 

The list goes on.

I can't stop my wife from cheating on me. If she does, that's on her.

What I can do is not be complacent in my marriage. Try to keep her interested, excited, try to keep things fresh and new. Try to stay attractive. Try to not forget all the things that made her into me to begin with.

Will that stop her from cheating on me if she wants to? No.

Will it stack the odds in my favour? Yes.

And that's pretty much the best I can do.

And she does the same for, and to, me.


----------



## Healer

I'm trying to figure out why jld and her manager are here.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> I did not read it, only skimmed it, but I should. It just seemed pretty mild to me.
> 
> Nevertheless, it gets alluded to a lot here, and I should do more than just skim it.
> 
> Most books have at least a few interesting points, even if one does not agree with them overall.


I actually think some of what JLD asserts is true.

BOTH parties in a marriage need to make sure the deep emotional needs of their spouse are taken care of or the marriage will probably ultimately fail. It doesn't mean it will fail due to infidelity. Infidelity, as you've said, is something some people are predisposed to and some aren't.

Where I think your message fails is AFTER that part. Its where you assert the WHY someone cheated.

I'll continue to look at the first half of your analysis and agree, but I'll disagree with the second half.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I think the only way to prevent affairs in any marriage is to understand why they happen. I don't want one to happen in mine, and I do not want that for anyone else, either. So I think hard about why they happen, and read about it. And then I discuss with other people.


But you have already told this forum that when a man cheats its because he wants a variety of partners, therefore nothing a woman can do about it.

So how would you prevent your husband from having an affair if, like you said, there is nothing you could have done about it? There is no way you can be a variety of different women for him. 

So therefore, the only ones that really need to understand why affairs happen are men.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> It only is if you want to keep her. And you do not have to if you do not want to. Every man has the right to divorce his wife at any time for any reason in America.


That's not what I asked. Sidestepping again and avoiding the question with irrelevant responses.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> But you have already told this forum that when a man cheats its because he wants a variety of partners, therefore nothing a woman can do about it.
> 
> So how would you prevent your husband from having an affair if, like you said, there is nothing you could have done about it? There is no way you can be a variety of different women for him.
> 
> So therefore, the only ones that really need to understand why affairs happen are men.


Interesting question.


----------



## staystrong

Vellocet, in your opinion, is it better to be right or to be happy in a relationship?


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> Vellocet, in your opinion, is it better to be right or to be happy in a relationship?


I think Vellocet is happiest not being in a relationship.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> But you have already told this forum that when a man cheats its because he wants a variety of partners, therefore nothing a woman can do about it.
> 
> So how would you prevent your husband from having an affair if, like you said, there is nothing you could have done about it? There is no way you can be a variety of different women for him.
> 
> So therefore, the only ones that really need to understand why affairs happen are men.


I do not think I can keep him from cheating. It is his own attraction to me that keeps him faithful. And Dug is a highly moral man.

He really is crazy about me, even after 21 years. I don't understand it, either. I can certainly be a handful. I don't hold back any of my emotions. I am absolutely transparent with him.

I think it is hard for women to keep husbands from having affairs. Do not deny him sex, that is for sure. But even then, it may not be enough.

I think women are at the mercy of men in many ways. It is so important to marry wisely, and to be able to leave if necessary.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Vellocet, in your opinion, is it better to be right or to be happy in a relationship?


Both. Not sure what you are really asking here.

I know the natural response without thinking about the question is "happy".

But how can one be happy if they have to surrender themselves to that which isn't right?


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> I think it is hard for women to keep husbands from having affairs. Do not deny him sex, that is for sure. But even then, it may not be enough.
> 
> I think women are at the mercy of men in many ways. It is so important to marry wisely, and to be able to leave if necessary.


You are blatantly sexist.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I don't disagree with you.
> It just hurts more than words can describe.
> It's as if the AP got a free pass to do everything I would've liked to have done. Everything WE deserved to get to do.
> That's the injustice.. it's not like I can have an affair with my wife.
> 
> However, I refer to my earlier point that she was in the "nexus". When wives start cheating as if there's no tomorrow. It's an epidemic.
> Stings to know another man got the "best" she wanted to give, and that they became a "team". Even my affair with her was not as good as theirs. Double whammy.


You cheated with her when she was married to her first husband? Surely you knew it was risky to marry her.

As far as having an affair with your wife, I think meeting her deepest needs is what sparks passion in a woman. She starts to deeply trust you, and she wants to give herself to you. She really cannot help herself from giving to her husband when he has met her deepest emotional needs, I think.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I do not think I can keep him from cheating.


So all your talk about understanding "why" to "prevent" being cheated on was blowing smoke, eh?




> It is his own attraction to me that keeps him faithful.


Ah, so you don't have to do anything? So you could neglect him and your marriage is still affair proof, as far as him having an affair anyway?

Sorry, but your own words are coming back to bite you.

Once again, men cheat its because he is a low down dirty dog.
Women cheat, its because the man pushed her to it and you recommend they be forgiven.

That hole keeps getting deeper. Put down the shovel.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> Both. Not sure what you are really asking here.
> 
> I know the natural response without thinking about the question is "happy".
> 
> But how can one be happy if they have to surrender themselves to that which isn't right?


I mean, do you feel as though you had to win arguments with your wife?


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> So all your talk about understanding "why" to "prevent" being cheated on was blowing smoke, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so you don't have to do anything? So you could neglect him and your marriage is still affair proof, as far as him having an affair anyway?
> 
> Sorry, but your own words are coming back to bite you.
> 
> Once again, men cheat its because he is a low down dirty dog.
> Women cheat, its because the man pushed her to it and you recommend they be forgiven.
> 
> That hole keeps getting deeper. Put down the shovel.


I think she's saying that as long as she continues to be attractive to him, then it's a balanced relationship. Neglecting herself would be neglecting him.


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> He works long hours, that's dangerous. Many men get cheated on because they spend too much time away from home.


Russell, being away from home is a concern to me. I am not so much concerned about an affair, although it is possible. I am more concerned about growing disconnected from my wife and waking up one day with nothing to say to each other.

To combat this, I try to use every opportunity to connect with my wife. Facetime is one obvious way, but the other way is through her interest. Right now her interest is TAM and I am glad to participate. It is way to stay connected and to discuss issues. 

The important aspect about TAM for us is not necessarily the posts that are made, but the discussions it triggers, whether they are face to face right now because I am on vacation, or though Facetime or skype.

To be honest, I would not have thought of joining a relationship forum, though I do think it is interesting. I am on TAM as a way of connecting with jld, and to compensate for the long time away from her.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> I think she's saying that as long as she continues to be attractive to him, then it's a balanced relationship. Neglecting herself would be neglecting him.


I'm talking about her neglecting him as in avoiding sex, not being attentive to his needs, etc.

She just said there is nothing she can do to keep him from cheating. Therefore, the "whys" are meaningless


----------



## Duguesclin

Vellocet, do you talk to your wife the way you talk to jld?


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> You cheated with her when she was married to her first husband? Surely you knew it was risky to marry her.
> 
> As far as having an affair with your wife, I think meeting her deepest needs is what sparks passion in a woman. She starts to deeply trust you, and she wants to give herself to you. She really cannot help herself from giving to her husband when he has met her deepest emotional needs, I think.


It happened very quickly. Within a few days of meeting each other. A longer long-distance affair progressed from their, with occasional meetings. It was a risk, yes, but I was not entirely conscious of it. I had bought into the idea that she needed to exit her marriage. And, in her case, she did.

I think her AP met her deepest needs, though some of them I would call shallow. 

During breakups, people tell you what they really think of you. And she did. My issue with her was that her assessment was accurate, but limited. (The exaggerated blame shifting stuff aside.) What I mean is that she underestimated my personality, and put 'me' in a box. She praised and criticized me, which was fair, but there was a large amount of conceit to it, obviously. WS's egos are gigantic unless toppled.


----------



## russell28

Lets me use the facts I know from my experience and my time here on CWI. Also time reading various other comments to articles about infidelity that usually are posted by folks that are dealing with it at that time or have dealt with it.

How many women that cheat, will own that choice vs. how many will shift the blame to some other factor. From what I've seen, 100% will try to shift blame initially, and only when confronted will a very small percentage take most or all of the blame for the choice to cheat. Most people that cheat, have a list of reasons ready to go if caught. They already know exactly what they are going to blame the spouse of doing wrong. This is part of what they call the 'script'.

The very few that do own the choice to cheat, make up such a minority, that the women that continue to blame forces outside of themselves become the winner. They win by sheer numbers. 

Here on CWI, we are mostly in tune to that whole thing, and don't fall for it. It frustrates some, like jld, that want to continue to point fingers to the man and want to think women are delicate little flowers that need to be watered by the man, and if he misses a day, they may wilt and die or perhaps cheat. 

So because someone takes a survey, as mentioned above a few times, and says "my husband made me cheat" doesn't mean they aren't just trying to not be the bad guy. They'd rather the husband be the bad guy.

If they'd say, my husband was a drunk and a jerk, and I didn't have the guts to leave him and his paycheck, so I took the easy way out and cheated... Then they start to look at themselves, and not the husband. The 'how could I lie', the 'how could I be indifferent to my husbands suffering', the 'how could I lack empathy for others', the 'how could I compartmentalize', the 'how could I disrespect my children and my family and risk STDs to myself and my husband', the 'was my husbands drinking because I wasn't showing him love and was always unhappy because I was bored with my life'.. (and no this isn't me, I don't drink more than a six pack a month)

Anyway.. My point, they need to do the "I" thing too, not the "My husband wasn't perfect" thing if they every want to figure out why they cheated. It has nothing to do with the husband getting enough power or acting tough, or doing enough sex positions to keep variety. Those things are great, act tough, have great sex, but that's not why your wife cheated. It wasn't about you, it was about her giving herself permission to flirt and cross boundaries. It was about her not being strong enough to divorce because she really wanted to try out another guy without leaving you first, just in case.. and hey, if he turns into an f buddy.. so be it.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> I mean, do you feel as though you had to win arguments with your wife?


No.


----------



## vellocet

Duguesclin said:


> Vellocet, do you talk to your wife the way you talk to jld?


I don't have a wife, and never will again.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> I'm trying to figure out why jld and her manager are here.


I think a lot of what she says is true.

There are times where my wife wants me to lead.

There are times when I want my wife to lead.

Why is this a big deal?


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> So all your talk about understanding "why" to "prevent" being cheated on was blowing smoke, eh?
> 
> I am speaking to men, vell. I am not sure there is much women can do to "hold" a man. If he is done, I think he is done. Best to just accept it and let him go.
> 
> Ah, so you don't have to do anything? So you could neglect him and your marriage is still affair proof, as far as him having an affair anyway? Ask him, vell. Ask him what keeps him from cheating.
> 
> Sorry, but your own words are coming back to bite you. Where do you get this stuff? And why do I bother responding?
> 
> Once again, men cheat its because he is a low down dirty dog.
> Women cheat, its because the man pushed her to it and you recommend they be forgiven. No one has to reconcile, vell. But for your own sake, you may want to consider forgiveness.
> 
> That hole keeps getting deeper. Put down the shovel.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> I'm talking about her neglecting him as in avoiding sex, not being attentive to his needs, etc.
> 
> She just said there is nothing she can do to keep him from cheating. Therefore, the "whys" are meaningless


I meant that she won't neglect herself (the things that he loves about her, not just what she does for him). If he's drawn to her essence, he's drawn to her essence. 

She believes he has a strong character and is highly moral. And maybe he his. She knows him better than anyone. They seem to have a good thing going..

You can't affair-proof a marriage 100% but you can do everything in your power.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> You are blatantly sexist.


You're fooling yourself if you think even the most staunch independent female feminist hasn't had times in her life where she feels at a man's mercy.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> No.


Really?


----------



## Marduk

vellocet said:


> I don't have a wife, and never will again.


If this is true, why are you here?

Not a sarcastic question, I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> I don't have a wife, and never will again.


I think that reveals your bias.

Please don't become one of those people.

Maybe not a wife by law, but for all intents and purposes. 

You've been burned just like the rest of us. Maybe you feel you've missed your big chance in life like I do. Maybe you have. Now what?


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Russell, being away from home is a concern to me. I am not so much concerned about an affair, although it is possible. I am more concerned about growing disconnected from my wife and waking up one day with nothing to say to each other.
> 
> To combat this, I try to use every opportunity to connect with my wife. Facetime is one obvious way, but the other way is through her interest. Right now her interest is TAM and I am glad to participate. It is way to stay connected and to discuss issues.
> 
> The important aspect about TAM for us is not necessarily the posts that are made, but the discussions it triggers, whether they are face to face right now because I am on vacation, or though Facetime or skype.
> 
> To be honest, I would not have thought of joining a relationship forum, though I do think it is interesting. I am on TAM as a way of connecting with jld, and to compensate for the long time away from her.


Do any of her views, concern you? Her take on relationships, and the mans role? Do you see where you might be jumping through hoops to please her, and that might not be sexy? I wasn't concerned about an affair either, because my wife and I were such good friends, had great sex and could always wake up and talk to each other. We have kids ,took them to dance, took them to karate, took them to school.. sat together at those things, spent time together.. got coffee and I took her to dinner once a week, vacations etc.. That mentality, that my wife wouldn't stray, because she had a crush on me, I'm so good to her, she loves me so much, crashed to the ground the day I found out she had been cheating with a guy at work for years. It started to make sense when she kept telling me to stop buying her flowers, we couldn't afford it.. she felt guilt. It wasn't that I stopped buying her flowers.

What I found when I looked at myself was that many women out there would love to be married to a man like me, that would be so good to them and cherish them for a lifetime. I have much to offer. That's what I learned. My wife is with me for a reason, because she knows she screwed up and almost lost me, she's clinging to me for dear life. I'm not so bad now am I? I'm kind of like you, a guy with a wife and kids...


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> Do any of her views, concern you? Her take on relationships, and the mans role? Do you see where you might be jumping through hoops to please her, and that might not be sexy? I wasn't concerned about an affair either, because my wife and I were such good friends, had great sex and could always wake up and talk to each other. We have kids ,took them to dance, took them to karate, took them to school.. sat together at those things, spent time together.. got coffee and I took her to dinner once a week, vacations etc.. That mentality, that my wife wouldn't stray, because she had a crush on me, I'm so good to her, she loves me so much, crashed to the ground the day I found out she had been cheating with a guy at work for years. It started to make sense when she kept telling me to stop buying her flowers, we couldn't afford it.. she felt guilt. It wasn't that I stopped buying her flowers.
> 
> What I found when I looked at myself was that many women out there would love to be married to a man like me, that would be so good to them and cherish them for a lifetime. I have much to offer. That's what I learned. My wife is with me for a reason, because she knows she screwed up and almost lost me, she's clinging to me for dear life. I'm not so bad now am I? I'm kind of like you, a guy with a wife and kids...


Some people just cheat and it has nothing to do with their spouse.

Maybe they're weak. Maybe they just see the opportunity and go for it. Maybe they want to feel attractive to other men.

You can never affair-proof a marriage. All you can do is what you can.

I'm so sorry man.


----------



## vellocet

Now I can't get out of my head the little dance that Charles Durning did in the Best Little Wh0rehouse in Texas


----------



## vellocet

marduk said:


> If this is true, why are you here?


Because I have dealt with infidelity first hand.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> I don't have a wife, and never will again.


If you do, make sure you get one that doesn't insult your intelligence the way jld does.

I wouldn't last a week and I'd be running for the hills after a date with jld.. too 'strong' for me. Once she told me what book to read, to keep her happy.. I'd be looking back in the little black book for another phone number.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> I think a lot of what she says is true.
> 
> There are times where my wife wants me to lead.
> 
> There are times when I want my wife to lead.
> 
> Why is this a big deal?


Well this doesn't address my question at all, but...thanks?

The "big deal" is very, very obvious and has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread - in a nutshell - jld asserts men are responsible for their own cheating, and cheat strictly for sexual variety, and men are responsible for their wives cheating, because they did not meet their wife's emotional needs. It's all there if you care to read it.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> I think that reveals your bias.


I am biased when it comes to cheating. I can admit it.
But I'm not biased with regards to whether the cheating is done by a man or woman. That would be JLD, but she'll never admit it, even though its obvious and she has exposed herself with her own words.



> Please don't become one of those people.


What people would that be? Those that now simply prefer to be single?




> Maybe not a wife by law, but for all intents and purposes.
> 
> You've been burned just like the rest of us. Maybe you feel you've missed your big chance in life like I do. Maybe you have. Now what?


Now what? I'm loving being single. For those that want that commitment in their lives, I will advise them the best I can and still believe in the sanctity of a loving, committed relationship....just not for me any longer.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Well this doesn't address my question at all, but...thanks?
> 
> The "big deal" is very, very obvious and has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread - in a nutshell - jld asserts men are responsible for their own cheating, and cheat strictly for sexual variety, and men are responsible for their wives cheating, because they did not meet their wife's emotional needs. It's all there if you care to read it.


Is this your position jld?


----------



## russell28

marduk said:


> I think a lot of what she says is true.
> 
> There are times where my wife wants me to lead.
> 
> There are times when I want my wife to lead.
> 
> Why is this a big deal?


Are you talking about who decides where to go for dinner? That kind of 'leading'? When you dance? Does one of you put the other on a leash?  Can you be more specific please?


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> You're fooling yourself if you think even the most staunch independent female feminist hasn't had times in her life where she feels at a man's mercy.


I never typed that. Read what you're quoting before you reply.


----------



## vellocet

russell28 said:


> If you do, make sure you get one that doesn't insult your intelligence the way jld does.


Its because of the mindset of people like JLD which is why the risk isn't worth it.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> If this is true, why are you here?
> 
> Not a sarcastic question, I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.


Uhhhh, this is the "Coping with infidelity" forum, right? And he was cheated on? Just a guess.

A better question is why is jld and her manager here?


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Uhhhh, this is the "Coping with infidelity" forum, right? And he was cheated on? Just a guess.
> 
> A better question is why is jld and her manager here?


No need for sarcasm, I was wondering why he was on a forum called "talk about marriage" because he never wanted to be married again.

And he answered and I understood.

As I said, I was trying to understand his position and now I do.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I meant that she won't neglect herself (the things that he loves about her, not just what she does for him). *If he's drawn to her essence, he's drawn to her essence. *
> 
> She believes he has a strong character and is highly moral. And maybe he his. She knows him better than anyone. They seem to have a good thing going..
> 
> You can't affair-proof a marriage 100% but you can do everything in your power.


That must be it, because there really is nothing special about me. Average in every way.

But to Dug, I am just wonderful. His very sweet girl. Even when I am really bad, getting all mad and yelling at him for some perceived slight, he never doubts my goodness. 

It does not mean he does not get mad back, either. He is not completely self-controlled. But nothing is a dealbreaker for him. He is just utterly committed to me. 

I don't understand it, either. But I know I am lucky.

I do try to be good to him. I always tell the truth, even when it is embarrassing and I have to close my eyes and whisper it in his ear while sitting on his lap. And yes, I do that. 

And I always tell him when I feel attracted to another man. I tell him right away. I don't want to be a bad girl, and I think telling him even just my thoughts is the best way to prevent that.

I like having sex with him, too. I am not a withholder.


----------



## russell28

Healer said:


> Uhhhh, this is the "Coping with infidelity" forum, right? And he was cheated on? Just a guess.
> 
> A better question is why is jld and her manager here?


It's one of her recent hobbies that her manager is doing to keep her happy. She likes forums. So he likes forums.

I like turtles.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> Is this your position jld?


Good Lord - have you not read her comments in this thread??


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> I never typed that. Read what you're quoting before you reply.


Did I misunderstand your response to her saying that she feels as a woman that she's at the mercy of men when you called her a sexist?

If I did, what were you saying?


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Good Lord - have you not read her comments in this thread??


I have. And yours.

I think she's trying to explain her marriage and how she feels about it.

And you're getting pissed off by it.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> That must be it, because there really is nothing special about me. Average in every way.
> 
> But to Dug, I am just wonderful. His very sweet girl. Even when I am really bad, getting all mad and yelling at him for some perceived slight, he never doubts my goodness.
> 
> It does not mean he does not get mad back, either. He is not completely self-controlled. But nothing is a dealbreaker for him. He is just utterly committed to me.
> 
> I don't understand it, either. But I know I am lucky.
> 
> I do try to be good to him. I always tell the truth, even when it is embarrassing and I have to close my eyes and whisper it in his ear while sitting on his lap. And yes, I do that.
> 
> And I always tell him when I feel attracted to another man. I tell him right away. I don't want to be a bad girl, and I think telling him even just my thoughts is the best way to prevent that.
> 
> I like having sex with him, too. I am not a withholder.


I think I just threw up in my mouth.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I think I just threw up in my mouth.


Why? What is so offensive to you about my marriage?


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> Are you talking about who decides where to go for dinner? That kind of 'leading'? When you dance? Does one of you put the other on a leash?  Can you be more specific please?


Sure.

A big problem in our marriage was that I wasn't decisive. 

Things like planning a date night, or where we're going on holidays, or if we need a new furnace.

I'd continually seek her feedback, where a lot of the time she'd just want me to sort it the hell out for myself.

Once I started doing that not only did she relax about a lot of things, and find me more attractive, but she also felt a lot freer to speak up if she didn't want to do something that I had planned out.

Because it wasn't a long drawn out "what do you want to watch tonight" "I don't know, what do you want to watch tonight" cycle, it was "Let's watch this."

You know?

And there are times where I just come home from work exhausted and don't want to make another decision that night and I leave running the ship up to her for that night.

And she's cool with that. We co-captain now.


----------



## davecarter

jld said:


> Why? What is so offensive to you about my marriage?


Yeah, I thought that a little harsh, too! :scratchhead:


----------



## vellocet

marduk said:


> Did I misunderstand your response to her saying that she feels as a woman that she's at the mercy of men when you called her a sexist?
> 
> If I did, what were you saying?


Do I have to repost it again? I guess so.



jld said:


> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


Man doesn't deserve to be taken back

Woman does since its the man's fault in the first place.


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> Do any of her views, concern you? Her take on relationships, and the mans role? Do you see where you might be jumping through hoops to please her, and that might not be sexy?
> 
> I'm not so bad now am I? I'm kind of like you, a guy with a wife and kids...


Not only do her views not concern me, I just happen to agree with most of them.

I am certainly working hard to grow with her like she is working hard to stay connected with me. It is not like I am doing the work and she does nothing.

Dominance is not barking orders to her. It is to serve her. It is to protect her from herself. It is to take care of her.



russell28 said:


> I'm not so bad now am I? I'm kind of like you, a guy with a wife and kids...


I never thought you were bad. We are all in the same boat, trying to keep things together and grow a healthy family.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> I have. And yours.
> 
> I think she's trying to explain her marriage and how she feels about it.
> 
> And you're getting pissed off by it.


You clearly haven't been reading *at all*. According to her, there's no infidelity in her marriage. She has said, time and time again in this thread, that women cheat because their man isn't meeting their emotional needs, that a man should take back a cheating wife, because he can win her back by meeting all of her emotional needs, but a woman should not take back a cheating husband, because all men want is sexual variety. It's all right there.

How can she be explaining _her_ marriage, when there's allegedly not been infidelity in _her_ marriage?

Read, man. READ before you reply.


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> Do I have to repost it again? I guess so.
> 
> 
> 
> Man doesn't deserve to be taken back
> 
> Woman does since its the man's fault in the first place.


Thanks for digging that up, _again_. Saved me the leg work.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Why men need to be decisive....

Every time I ask my girl what she wants to eat - YouTube


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Do I have to repost it again? I guess so.
> 
> Man doesn't deserve to be taken back
> 
> Woman does since its the man's fault in the first place.


It is not about "deserving." I just think it is risky.

Women do not "deserve" to be taken back, either. It is the man's choice. 

But if he is going to take her back, he would be wise to look at why she cheated, and see what he could do, if anything, to prevent future cheating, as I doubt he wants his heart broken a second time.


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> Thanks for digging that up, _again_. Saved me the leg work.


And I'll keep posting it whenever someone decides to dance like Charles Durning.


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> You clearly haven't been reading *at all*. According to her, there's no infidelity in her marriage. She has said, time and time again in this thread, that women cheat because their man isn't meeting their emotional needs, that a man should take back a cheating wife, because he can win her back by meeting all of her emotional needs, but a woman should not take back a cheating husband, because all men want is sexual variety. It's all right there.
> 
> How can she be explaining _her_ marriage, when there's allegedly not been infidelity in _her_ marriage?
> 
> Read, man. READ before you reply.


I never said a man "should" take her back. That is a falsehood.

It is a man's choice whether or not to take her back.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> It is not about "deserving." I just think it is risky.


Because you are gender biased.



> Women do not "deserve" to be taken back, either. It is the man's choice.


No sh*t its the man's choice. Who said anything about choice? Nobody.

And yes, backpedal on your words. You sympathize with women who cheat because somehow the man had to have pushed her to do it.



> But if he is going to take her back, he would be wise to look at why she cheated, and see what he could do, if anything, to prevent future cheating, as I doubt he wants his heart broken a second time.


And if a woman take a man back then she will need to take a look at why he cheated to see what she can do to prevent future cheating

Oh wait, scratch that. Men cheat for variety, therefore men cheating isn't the woman's fault. That only applies to men


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> I never said a man "should" take her back. That is a falsehood.
> 
> It is a man's choice whether or not to take her back.


Let's not nitpick semantics. It's proven to be a fruitless tactic for you.


----------



## staystrong

That's the idea, Vell. 

jld is gender biased. But so what? She doesn't see that as wrong, but real. It's contrarian to the 50/50 dynamic we've been discussing which causes issues in relationships. Men not leading, women not knowing they want to be led.

It's not much different than what MMSLP says.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Because you are gender biased. I also think women give birth and breastfeed. Does that make me gender-biased, too?
> 
> And if a woman take a man back then she will need to take a look at why he cheated to see what she can do to prevent future cheating I suppose. I think they often use control techniques.
> 
> I could not do that. He would have to straighten himself out on his own. I am not going to chase him around making sure he is telling the truth.
> 
> If I felt the need to do that, I could not respect him anymore, anyway.
> 
> Oh wait, scratch that. Men cheat for variety, therefore men cheating isn't the woman's fault. That only applies to men I did not do the research, vell. I just read it.
> 
> And it does not mean her cheating was not her own decision. She has to live with that on her conscience.


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> Let's not nitpick semantics. It's proven to be a fruitless tactic for you.


----------



## karole

JLD, did you not have a healthy relationship with your father? If not, is that one of the reasons that you have the type of relationship with Dug that you have?


----------



## jld

Healer said:


> Let's not nitpick semantics. It's proven to be a fruitless tactic for you.


You are supporting a falsehood. There is a difference in the meaning of what I said, and what you say I said.

Did your wife cheat on you, Healer?


----------



## jld

karole said:


> JLD, did you not have a healthy relationship with your father? If not, is that one of the reasons that you have the type of relationship with Dug that you have?


He is definitely the father I wish I would have had, even if he is only 3 years older than I am. 

He was the oldest in his family, and I am the youngest in mine. That is probably part of it, too. He really cares for me. 

But I think I am just wired the way I am. 50/50 just does not interest me. 

And when I see all the power struggles those people are in, plus how boring it would be to me, sexually, it just has no appeal at all. 

I do understand that legally it has to be that way, though.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> You are supporting a falsehood. There is a difference in the meaning of what I said, and what you say I said.
> 
> Did your wife cheat on you, Healer?


Let's clarify then. Here's what you typed:

"Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs."

You're nitpicking "hesitate to recommend" vs "shouldn't"? OK, got me there. 

Yes, of course she cheated on me. I wouldn't frequent a forum entitled "Coping with infidelity" for kicks. Who would do that??


----------



## vellocet

> I also think women give birth and breastfeed. Does that make me gender-biased, too?


The sad thing is, you actually think this is a good apples to apples argument. :rofl:




> I did not do the research, vell. I just read it.


Theres that little dance again. Here, lets repost what you said, yet again.



jld said:


> Based on what I've read, *I would hesitate to recommend *that a woman take back a cheating husband.* I think *there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


No, you didn't "just read it". Note the bolded parts, and then please do try to sidestep again. Nobody here is fooled. Except maybe for your manager.

But I think you are purposely replying with irrelevant drivel now not to sidestep, but to be ridiculous because you can't deal with what you say. Again, pedaling backwards does not make you go in reverse.


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> The sad thing is, you actually think this is a good apples to apples argument. :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Theres that little dance again. Here, lets repost what you said, yet again.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you didn't "just read it". Note the bolded parts, and then please do try to sidestep again. Nobody here is fooled. Except maybe for your manager.


That's "Mr." Manager.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Why? What is so offensive to you about my marriage?


There was so much sugar in your post, it triggered my gag reflex.


----------



## staystrong

I really think people are being too hard on JLD and Dug. Why are you judging their relationship? For Pete's sake, they are happily married, have five kids, and have passed the 20 year mark or whatever. Clearly their dynamic works. My guess is that Dug feels confident enough in himself to not come on here and get rattled and start attacking back.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> He is definitely the father I wish I would have had, even if he is only 3 years older than I am.
> 
> He was the oldest in his family, and I am the youngest in mine. That is probably part of it, too. He really cares for me.
> 
> But I think I am just wired the way I am. 50/50 just does not interest me.
> 
> And when I see all the power struggles those people are in, plus how boring it would be to me, sexually, it just has no appeal at all.
> 
> I do understand that legally it has to be that way, though.


jld, just curious ... are/were you employed or do you manage house and kids?


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> I really think people are being too hard on JLD and Dug. Why are you judging their relationship? For Pete's sake, they are happily married, have five kids, and have passed the 20 year mark or whatever. Clearly their dynamic works. My guess is that Dug feels confident enough in himself to not come on here and get rattled and start attacking back.


I'm not judging their relationship. I only asked questions for the sake of argument. I made no conclusion about their marriage.

I do wonder if neither of them cheated or have been cheated on why they are here, or how, jld at least, they have a strong view on cheating and who she thinks is responsible.

If I had never experienced it, I'd have never come to a forum like this.

But while we are on the subject of their relationship, I'll just put my own feelings in here. If I were in a relationship, and my significant other defended cheating women, but wouldn't recommend women take back cheating men, at the very least my reaction would be, "what? seriously??"


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> I really think people are being too hard on JLD and Dug. Why are you judging their relationship? For Pete's sake, they are happily married, have five kids, and have passed the 20 year mark or whatever. Clearly their dynamic works. My guess is that Dug feels confident enough in himself to not come on here and get rattled and start attacking back.


I couldn't care less about their relationship - whatever works for them. That's not the issue people are having.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> There was so much sugar in your post, it triggered my gag reflex.


Well, Dug does tell me I am sweet.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> jld, just curious ... are/were you employed or do you manage house and kids?


I was a teacher before our oldest was born. But right away when we were dating, Dug told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our kids, so that was always the plan. I am a homeschooling SAHM.


----------



## treyvion

Healer said:


> Let's clarify then. Here's what you typed:
> 
> "Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs."


If you read most of the TAM stories, most of the cheating wives in this part of the internet were the entitled and greedy cheater types. No kind of nice play would have worked with these ladies and made our lives much worse to be saddled around the next with such an albatross.

It was our kindness and love which was taken for granted, many of these women were not neglected nor abused, but simply abused their right and female priviledge, and if we kept them as our "better half", we would still be cheating on or simply living in a marginalized position.

So there was nothing we could do but drop the situation, or some sort of manipulative cheat on them back and show a stronger leverage in which they respect, but most of us weren't willing to do this for someone who should've loved us from the get-go and never hurt us.

I'm sure similar is true of the women.



Healer said:


> You're nitpicking "hesitate to recommend" vs "shouldn't"? OK, got me there.
> 
> Yes, of course she cheated on me. I wouldn't frequent a forum entitled "Coping with infidelity" for kicks. Who would do that??


To any of you, looking back what could you have done? What could you have done to prevent the cheating? What could you have done to restore your relationship and get your spouse wanting to "play nicely" with you, respect you and take care of you?


----------



## Duguesclin

vellocet said:


> But while we are on the subject of their relationship, I'll just put my own feelings in here. If I were in a relationship, and my significant other defended cheating women, but wouldn't recommend women take back cheating men, at the very least my reaction would be, "what? seriously??"


So someone defending a murderer has murderous thoughts?

Anyway, JLD is not defending cheating women. She only argues to try to understand them. Understanding someone's behavior does not make that behavior acceptable.


----------



## Hope1964

staystrong said:


> I really think people are being too hard on JLD and Dug. Why are you judging their relationship? For Pete's sake, they are happily married, have five kids, and have passed the 20 year mark or whatever. Clearly their dynamic works. My guess is that Dug feels confident enough in himself to not come on here and get rattled and start attacking back.


It isn't their relationship that people have issue with. It's their constant nauseating assertions that a) they belong in CWI, when neither knows what they're talking about, b) that it is EVER the BS's fault they were cheated on, and c) their total refusal to acknowledge that active listening, meeting emotional needs, and relationship power dynamics are fine for them but do NOT solve everyone elses relationship problems.

I find the constant head-into-brick-wall banging tiresome and think I'll go interact with people who have intelligent opinions to share with me.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> If I were in a relationship, and my significant other defended cheating women, but wouldn't recommend women take back cheating men, at the very least my reaction would be, "what? seriously??"


Maybe it's because you come out of that 50/50 mindset?


----------



## Marduk

vellocet said:


> Do I have to repost it again? I guess so.
> 
> 
> 
> Man doesn't deserve to be taken back
> 
> Woman does since its the man's fault in the first place.


See, what I read in what she wrote was one woman's perspective.

I could very easily say that in my first sexless marriage I could understand how a man could be somewhat excused for having sex with another woman because his wife wouldn't.

And once the wife started to meet the guy's needs, maybe he could be taken back.

Now I personally don't believe a word of it, but I could understand the position without responding with anger.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> I'm not judging their relationship. I only asked questions for the sake of argument. I made no conclusion about their marriage.
> 
> I do wonder if neither of them cheated or have been cheated on why they are here, or how, jld at least, they have a strong view on cheating and who she thinks is responsible.
> 
> If I had never experienced it, I'd have never come to a forum like this.
> 
> But while we are on the subject of their relationship, I'll just put my own feelings in here. If I were in a relationship, and my significant other defended cheating women, but wouldn't recommend women take back cheating men, at the very least my reaction would be, "what? seriously??"


jld has over 7,000 posts on TAM so I'm guessing she is exploring the different forums. Learning about relationships, how other people do things, etc. 

I don't agree with her but for a different reason: the chances of working it out with a cheating wife are lower than with a cheating husband, regardless of the approach. 

There's a poster named Fellini over on LS who had an approach which resonates with jld. And he WAS successful. He wasn't passive like that dude sleeping on the couch, he had his own demands, but he made a real thorough attempt to address his wife's emotional needs. Basically he thinks that his wife and cheating women often exhibit narcissism and it's learning how to live what that narcissism which enables you to R successfully. He tried to understand his wife's emotional responses at each step, and what the need was. Instead of, you know, telling her she's a cake eater or whatever. Over time, it has worked for him and she has come out with more and more about her affair.. voluntarily. Things clicked in her own head, by virtue of realizing her emotional needs.


----------



## russell28

staystrong said:


> I really think people are being too hard on JLD and Dug. Why are you judging their relationship? For Pete's sake, they are happily married, have five kids, and have passed the 20 year mark or whatever. Clearly their dynamic works. My guess is that Dug feels confident enough in himself to not come on here and get rattled and start attacking back.


I passed the 20 year mark with my wife not cheating on me too.. 

Dug and his wife are patronizing and condescending as they speak to people that have first hand experience about a topic Dug and his wife have no first hand experience with. They are insulting, even if they are polite and subtle as they are insulting you. I don't pretend to be polite to people that insult me and accuse me of things. If someone tells me I need to look at myself for why someone abused me, I will usually say something like 'look at this' and flip them off, but here that gets you banned. It also makes you look bitter, and angry, and not nice... so then folks will say "look, he's being mean" But is it really being mean, or just refusing to let other people play games with your mind... Standing up for yourself. So stop with the talk about truth, and needing to look at yourself... blah blah.. dime store therapy from a couple that is looking to stay connected by playing on the Coping with Infidelity forums if you want me to be sincerely polite and kind. Don't insult me in a backhanded way and expect me to sit back and take it.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



Duguesclin said:


> So someone defending a murderer has murderous thoughts?
> 
> Anyway, JLD is not defending cheating women. She only argues to try to understand them. Understanding someone's behavior does not make that behavior acceptable.


Uh huh yea she has defended. One in particular, who has been banned because the woman was a detriment to the waywards who actually wanted help.


----------



## staystrong

Hope1964 said:


> It isn't their relationship that people have issue with. It's their constant nauseating assertions that a) they belong in CWI, when neither knows what they're talking about, b) that it is EVER the BS's fault they were cheated on, and c) their total refusal to acknowledge that active listening, meeting emotional needs, and relationship power dynamics are fine for them but do NOT solve everyone elses relationship problems.
> 
> I find the constant head-into-brick-wall banging tiresome and think I'll go interact with people who have intelligent opinions to share with me.


Yeah, I'm with you. We are going around in circles with a few tangentials.


----------



## jld

treyvion said:


> If you read most of the TAM stories, most of the cheating wives in this part of the internet were the entitled and greedy cheater types. No kind of nice play would have worked with these ladies and made our lives much worse to be saddled around the next with such an albatross. Sometimes it is best to just divorce. With serial cheaters, it is usually best to divorce. But one man here, the guy, stayed with his wife. He seems happy.
> 
> It was our kindness and love which was taken for granted, many of these women were not neglected nor abused, but simply abused their right and female priviledge, and if we kept them as our "better half", we would still be cheating on or simply living in a marginalized position. Again, divorce is always an option.
> 
> So there was nothing we could do but drop the situation, or some sort of manipulative cheat on them back and show a stronger leverage in which they respect, but most of us weren't willing to do this for someone who should've loved us from the get-go and never hurt us. Yep, divorce as a perfectly reasonable option here again.
> 
> I'm sure similar is true of the women. Yep.
> 
> To any of you, looking back what could you have done? What could you have done to prevent the cheating? What could you have done to restore your relationship and get your spouse wanting to "play nicely" with you, respect you and *take care of you?* Just my opinion, but I would look carefully at that last phrase . . . Just my opinion, but that sounds risky.


----------



## vellocet

Duguesclin said:


> So someone defending a murderer has murderous thoughts?


Nope, just like I never inferred that someone that defends cheating women have cheating thoughts.

Read what I said again.




> Anyway, JLD is not defending cheating women.


Yes, she did. Oh she may have come back to throw a few small meaningless disclaimers once caught, but yes, she did.


----------



## Healer

treyvion said:


> To any of you, looking back what could you have done? What could you have done to prevent the cheating? What could you have done to restore your relationship and get your spouse wanting to "play nicely" with you, respect you and take care of you?


There's nothing I could've done to prevent her from cheating - she said as much. She admitted she was (and is - although she is working on herself) a very, very messed up woman with serious daddy issues, low self esteem, abandonment issues and an unfillable void for male attention. She thought she wasn't getting her "emotional needs" fulfilled by me, and that she had found someone to do that in her AP(s). She soon realized this wasn't the case at all - the void was not able to be filled by any other person - it had to come from within herself. She discovered all this in IC and relayed it to me. She's still in the process of working on it. She recently told me she's "working really hard on fixing her issues that were toxic to our relationship". That was rather refreshing to hear, honestly.

I was not a perfect husband - no man is. Nobody is perfect. But I was a god man, a good, loving, loyal, faithful husband who defended her honor time and time again, put up with 14 years of cheating accusations, told her she was smart and beautiful all the time, that she could do anything she put her mind to - always trying to talk her up when she would just bash herself. I'd constantly challenge her self down-talk. But I couldn't win. Nobody could convince her she was worthy. Then in walks a low life scum bag, her "peer" as she put it, manipulated her and she thought she found her "soul mate". Of course he dumped her like a steaming bag of dog **** after he got what he wanted. THEN she realized she had a good, loving husband and had made the worst decision of her life.

By then it was too late.


----------



## staystrong

jld,

if one of your sons cheated on his wife/GF ostensibly for what was just sexual variety, would you recommend her to not take him back if she was thinking about it?


----------



## jld

I have been very clear that cheating is not the road to take. But I do not condemn Zanne. Dug thinks she is depressed. She is hurting herself, but she may not be able to see it. I think she needs encouragement to get on a healthier path.

Honestly, I probably would not condemn my brother, either, who had a ONS after nine months of withholding from his wife. I also do not condemn his wife. My brother was not a mature, responsible husband and father. They are better off separate, since neither wanted to understand the other. They just wanted to each be right.


----------



## staystrong

Healer said:


> There's nothing I could've done to prevent her from cheating - she said as much. She admitted she was (and is - although she is working on herself) a very, very messed up woman with serious daddy issues, low self esteem, abandonment issues and an unfillable void for male attention. She thought she wasn't getting her "emotional needs" fulfilled by me, and that she had found someone to do that in her AP(s). She soon realized this wasn't the case at all - the void was not able to be filled by any other person - it had to come from within herself. She discovered all this in IC and relayed it to me. She's still in the process of working on it. She recently told me she's "working really hard on fixing her issues that were toxic to our relationship". That was rather refreshing to hear, honestly.
> 
> I was not a perfect husband - no man is. Nobody is perfect. But I was a god man, a good, loving, loyal, faithful husband who defended her honor time and time again, put up with 14 years of cheating accusations, told her she was smart and beautiful all the time, that she could do anything she put her mind to - always trying to talk her up when she would just bash herself. I'd constantly challenge her self down-talk. But I couldn't win. Nobody could convince her she was worthy. Then in walks a low life scum bag, her "peer" as she put it, manipulated her and she thought she found her "soul mate". Of course he dumped her like a steaming bag of dog **** after he got what he wanted. THEN she realized she had a good, loving husband and had made the worst decision of her life.
> 
> By then it was too late.


Was he meeting her deepest emotional needs?


----------



## Deejo

jld I appreciate that you have a knack for opening these cans of of whoop-a$$ threads, but invariably it is important that your feet touch the fire as well.

So ... what if?

Given everything you know about your marriage and relationship to Dug, what choice would you make if you discovered that all of his time away on business isn't just business?

Same could be asked of you, would Dug tolerate and look to sort through the reasons why you might choose to have an affair in his absence or would he walk?

Do you have ANY idea of the number of people that have come here with lifestyle scenarios exactly as you outline? Mom stays at home and dad travels often for work ... and they thought their marriage was great too?


----------



## staystrong

Healer,

What was the conversation like when she tried to come back?

Was the love gone at that point? Did you know the reason she came crawling back?


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> Was he meeting her deepest emotional needs?


No, as I stated. He knew what to say and do to get into her pants, and initially, this new attention and fawning felt to her like he was meeting those needs. He got what he wanted, grew tired of her and threw her away.

She hates his guts now.

Her emotional needs were not able to be met by any man. She needed (needs) to fix herself first.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> But the point I think you are missing JLD is that many WS, men and women, don't carry around anything because they don't care.


Well, I agree with _that_.
My ex did not give a damn and never did.

Some people are just broken.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> No, as I stated. He knew what to say and do to get into her pants, and initially, this new attention and fawning felt to her like he was meeting those needs. He got what he wanted, grew tired of her and threw her away.
> 
> She hates his guts now.
> 
> Her emotional needs were not able to be met by any man. She needed (needs) to fix herself first.


I don't think the affair partners need to meet all the spouse's needs, just the ones that they think they're not getting.

This is why it's so easy to cheat with a married person. All you have to give is what they've been missing.

That may or may not have anything to do with the person's spouse. Novelty, for example.


----------



## russell28

"The only one I've seen be insulting on this thread is Healer. "

I must be sensitive.

A person goes into a Harley biker bar, and tell the Harley guys that a Honda is awesome, your Harley is nice, but they really think a Honda is more reliable and a better deal. They go on and on about how wonderful the Honda is. They said your Harley was nice, so you shouldn't be insulted right? You should be glad they are there to help right?




Edit.. I should add that this person never actually rode a motorcycle or a Honda, but they've read about them in magazines.


----------



## staystrong

Healer said:


> No, as I stated. He knew what to say and do to get into her pants, and initially, this new attention and fawning felt to her like he was meeting those needs. He got what he wanted, grew tired of her and threw her away.
> 
> She hates his guts now.
> 
> Her emotional needs were not able to be met by any man. She needed (needs) to fix herself first.


Sorry, it was a bad joke. 

Okay, wasn't sure if she intended to leave or you D'ed and then he dumped her. 

It's good she's working on herself.

I think your case and many others highlights that getting attention and validation are enough of an emotional need. Not necessarily deep, just that someone is lacking something inside themselves.

I told a friend I thought my wife has daddy issues. His response: "What woman doesn't?"

Same goes for men, I suppose, but that's less talked about.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> jld,
> 
> if one of your sons cheated on his wife/GF ostensibly for what was just sexual variety, would you recommend her to not take him back if she was thinking about it?


I would be all over him, believe me. And I would tell her that if he is a serial cheater, it would be best to let him go. And I would certainly tell her to get half the assets, child support, and alimony. And I would be as supportive to her as I could be.

Nothing would stop me from loving my sons, but they know what I think about their responsibilities as men. And they have seen Dug's example.

Just reread this. If it were a one time affair, I would ask her what she thought. Does she believe it could be a one and done, like Reformed Hubby described? Does she want to use control techniques, like Hope did? 

Really, does she want to stay with him at all? 

He is supposed to take care of her. Instead, he totally broke her trust.

Really strong women, like RH's wife, could handle it. I guess it would depend on her character, if she could handle it or not.

Okay, Dug says this has to be my last post for now. We are going out for lunch.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> Well, I agree with _that_.
> My ex did not give a damn and never did.
> 
> Some people are just broken.


Yep. And I can accept that my x is broken. Was much harder for me to accept that I knew that she was and married her anyway. The vanity of thinking you can love somebody enough to make the whole. 

But at the end of the day she still made the choice to cheat. Doesn't matter why was still her 100% fault for that.


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> "The only one I've seen be insulting on this thread is Healer. "
> 
> I must be sensitive.
> 
> You go into a Harley biker bar, and tell the Harley guys that your Honda is awesome, the Harley is nice, but they really think a Honda is more reliable and a better deal. They go on and on about how wonderful the Honda is. They said your Harley was nice, so you shouldn't be insulted right? You should be glad they are there to help right?


I deleted it because it was on another topic that I thought he was being insulting, and I re-read it and realized he was probably just being sarcastic.

Anyway, it didn't add to the conversation, so I removed it.

Ok?


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> Healer,
> 
> What was the conversation like when she tried to come back?
> 
> Was the love gone at that point? Did you know the reason she came crawling back?


The affair had basically fizzled before dday. She left because the guilt was eating her alive and she knew I'd find out and that I would divorce her. She was an utter coward, and admits as much.

It was me who initially wanted to fight to save us, even after I found out about the affair. I kept saying I would fight, and she kept saying she knew I'd never forgive her, it would never work. All I knew is I had to _try_ and fight for my family, goddammit. It was pure instinct - no rational thought *at all*. Finally I decided to move on and start dating. When she found that out, she lost her marbles. Oh the irony! That's when she decided we should try to work it out. Oh what a ****ing idiot I was for not seeing what that was really all about! But I was just thrilled to have my family back. We told the kids, they were thrilled.

We read some books, did the exercises, had amazing HB, spent a lot of time together, romancing, talking, and of course there were terrible fights and angry outbursts from me. It lasted 10 weeks.

Fortunately I came to my senses and realized she was right - I'd never get over it and never forgive her, and I did not want to be with someone who would do that to me and my children.

The divorce should be finalized any day now, literally.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I would be all over him, believe me. And I would tell her that if he is a serial cheater, it would be best to let him go. And I would certainly tell her to get half the assets, child support, and alimony. And I would be as supportive to her as I could be.
> 
> Nothing would stop me from loving my sons, but they know what I think about their responsibilities as men. And they have seen Dug's example.
> 
> Just reread this. If it were a one time affair, I would ask her what she thought. Does she believe it could be a one and done, like Reformed Hubby described? Does she want to use control techniques, like Hope did?
> 
> Really, does she want to stay with him at all?
> 
> He is supposed to take care of her. Instead, he totally broke her trust.
> 
> Really strong women, like RH's wife, could handle it. I guess it would depend on her character, if she could handle it or not.
> 
> Okay, Dug says this has to be my last post for now. We are going out for lunch.


Enjoy lunch. 

Vell is going to jump all over the new 'serial' clause.


----------



## russell28

marduk said:


> I deleted it because it was on another topic that I thought he was being insulting, and I re-read it and realized he was probably just being sarcastic.
> 
> Anyway, it didn't add to the conversation, so I removed it.
> 
> Ok?


Just trying to point out how someone can be insulting without being direct about it.


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> Sorry, it was a bad joke.


Lol, sorry, that went right over my head. Good one though. Let's just say he was meeting a LOT of women's "emotional needs"...at the same time.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep. And I can accept that my x is broken. Was much harder for me to accept that I knew that she was and married her anyway. The vanity of thinking you can love somebody enough to make the whole.
> 
> But at the end of the day she still made the choice to cheat. Doesn't matter why was still her 100% fault for that.


How has she done since?

Mine hasn't done well, in relationships or life in general. Much to the chagrin of her parents, who hoped that I had been somehow 'holding her back'.

Has a long history of cheating, leaving, etc.


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> Just trying to point out how someone can be insulting without being direct about it.


My point is that her perspective on what keeps her from cheating is actually interesting and food for thought.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> I deleted it because it was on another topic that I thought he was being insulting, and I re-read it and realized he was probably just being sarcastic.
> 
> Anyway, it didn't add to the conversation, so I removed it.
> 
> Ok?


Me, sarcastic??


----------



## Healer

I believe there are some people, *male and female*, whose "needs", whether they be emotional, sexual, both, whatever, can never be met by 1 person, or by any number of people. I've seen it first hand.

It's like an addiction. It's a void that can never be filled, no matter how much they take. They will always want more, and even more is never enough. It's an emptiness within themselves that they look to others to fill - but it never gets filled. Sometimes these people can fix themselves through therapy and hard work, sometimes not. I suspect a lot of serial cheaters are like this.

People like this are basically impossible to prevent from cheating. They're chasing a ghost.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> I believe there are some people, *male and female*, whose "needs", whether they be emotional, sexual, both, whatever, can never be met by 1 person, or by any number of people. I've seen it first hand.
> 
> It's like an addiction. It's a void that can never be filled, no matter how much they take. They will always want more, and even more is never enough. It's an emptiness within themselves that they look to others to fill - but it never gets filled. Sometimes these people can fix themselves through therapy and hard work, sometimes not. I suspect a lot of serial cheaters are like this.
> 
> People like this are basically impossible to prevent from cheating. They're chasing a ghost.


My MC was all but useless but one thing she said is that those with too much of an external locus of control, or internal locus of control were at the highest risk of cheating.

Too much external locus of control -> were easily woo'd by others, and "it just happened." It was the other person's fault for coming on to them, and the spouse's fault for driving them away.

Too much internal locus of control -> they could control everything and everyone around them to create whatever they wanted and "my needs weren't being met so I found someone that would."

Mine was the latter, and the need being met changed minute to minute. It was more about having everything and not having consequences because they were the centre of the universe.

Food for thought.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> How has she done since?
> 
> Mine hasn't done well, in relationships or life in general. Much to the chagrin of her parents, who hoped that I had been somehow 'holding her back'.
> 
> Has a long history of cheating, leaving, etc.


Not well on the personal front. She has found out that no one wants a used up 40 year old who cheated on two marriages. She is still beautiful so no doubt lots of attention but no one with a clue would marry her or trust her now.

I have always wondered when the day comes that she does see someone and they meet my kids and I in turn meet him. Once I explain my rules with my kiddos I will seriously have to bite my tongue or say really dude? Her? Guess we will see what that day is like lol


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Enjoy lunch.
> 
> Vell is going to jump all over the new 'serial' clause.


No, vell isn't.


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> What I am trying to tell men is that by meeting their wife's deepest emotional needs, they are likely saving themselves a whole lot of heartbreak in the long run. .



How do you know this? You've never cheated right? So you can't give advice on something you don't know.


----------



## Healer

ThePheonix said:


> No, I don't think so Dawg. Most likely she left to try and salvage the thing she had with her boyfriend and needed you out of the way. The reason her interest in you perked back up and she went nuts is became you became a challenge. Women like a challenge (guys remember that) and what could be more of a challenge than proving she rope you back in. Divorce soon being final notwithstanding, the winner and undisputed champeen in that scenario is your ex old lady.


You can think whatever you like - that doesn't make it so. I read the texts/Facebook messages between the 2, and it blew up before she left. I also texted with him right after I found out and he was with another woman at that point. They hated each others guts by dday. In fact he was banned from entering her workplace before dday - at her request. I confirmed this with her manager and coworkers.

But thanks for playing!

ETA - your winky face doesn't negate the venom of that last part. Nice, _dawg_.

ETA again - actually the entire post was nasty and inflammatory. Are you butthurt dude?


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> How do you know this? You've never cheated right? So you can't give advice on something you don't know.


I've been cheated on and I think it's decent advice.

Nothing will stop those that have decided to cheat. But figuring out what your spouse wants and fulfilling that probably reduces the odds.

What's wrong with that?


----------



## loyallad

marduk said:


> I've been cheated on and I think it's decent advice.
> 
> Nothing will stop those that have decided to cheat. But figuring out what your spouse wants and fulfilling that probably reduces the odds.
> 
> What's wrong with that?


News flash, WS before they cheated probably weren't fulfilling their end either and darn sure aren't perfect. Some people can live with the less than perfect because nobody is perfect. I am ready to throw up hearing all this "didn't fulfill their needs" bullcrap. This stuff sounds like some stuff put in women's magazines. People cheat because they can. They don't value their spouse, their marriage and their morals are lacking. I guess honor and loyalty are just unrealistic values and the ME, ME, ME craze rules the day.

Figuring out what your spouse wants...........? What is this the guessing game? Think we found the problem Houston. BS are to be sooth sayers and seers. If you were/are the same person after you got married that you were before you got married shouldn't the WS that is not being fulfilled emotionally noticed this before marrying someone? O wait that's not really the problem, WS just bored with old you, you're boring, I need a challenge someone to make me feel good about myself. Meanwhile ole soon to be BS just plods along until the freight train runs him over. 

Pointing out to the BS they could or should have done things different in the marriage is like going to the doctor and telling him it hurts when I do this. And the doctor says "Don't do that". WS could and should do something before cheating. That's an obvious one too but some want to make this into what's really wrong with you BS. They do it with their backhand comments.

While we want to kick this old unfulfilled emotionally stuff how about the WS and their A. Is this not unfulfilling to the BS? Their WS is spending their emotions on OP. Tough cookies BS roll over and take it, you caused this. Take your medicine. Whatever happened to people owning up to their wrongs? They're some WS that have come on here and admitted what they did. Good for you, but for those that don't please don't try to blame BS for the affair. They may have part of the blame for the marriage going sideways but not the A. And for those that haven't experienced the pain over being cheated and betrayed and want to come on here and spit out your two cents worth, keep it to yourself. You're the type of person that likes to strike matches and watch them burn. It's like someone that never had kids and wants to give parental advise. You may get a couple of things right but you really rubs salt into the wound with flip comments.


----------



## Machiavelli

jld said:


> From the article linked above by Mach:
> 
> _Their findings conformed to common stereotypes of men as promiscuous and women as choosy. The men, who averaged about 42 years old, advertised "anything goes" more than twice as often as women, while the women, who averaged about 39, sought long-term relationships about two-thirds more than men._


That has nothing to do with the fact that adulteresses are still after sex bottom line. Your selected quote exactly confirms to the conventional wisdom of psychobiological reproductive strategies.


----------



## ThePheonix

Healer said:


> ETA again - actually the entire post was nasty and inflammatory. Are you butthurt dude?


I did push the envelop with that. My apology. I don't have any excuse for going that far. I'm going to delete that post.


----------



## Miss Independent

marduk said:


> What's wrong with that?



There's something wrong with blaming men when women cheat. She isn't holding women who cheat accountable according to her it's a man's fault when his wife cheats. 


Would you take advice about how to be successful from someone who isn't successful?


In addition, JLD doesn't walk the talk. She doesn't practice what she preaches, so why the hell is she preaching?


----------



## jld

Machiavelli said:


> That has nothing to do with the fact that adulteresses are still after sex bottom line. Your selected quote exactly confirms to the conventional wisdom of psychobiological reproductive strategies.


How? Because men want sex and women want commitment?

I am sure some women want sex. I think most want love. I am sure you are familiar with the saying, "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> There's a poster named Fellini over on LS who had an approach which resonates with jld. And he WAS successful. He wasn't passive like that dude sleeping on the couch, he had his own demands, but he made a real thorough attempt to address his wife's emotional needs. Basically he thinks that his wife and cheating women often exhibit narcissism and it's learning how to live what that narcissism which enables you to R successfully. He tried to understand his wife's emotional responses at each step, and what the need was. Instead of, you know, telling her she's a cake eater or whatever. Over time, it has worked for him and she has come out with more and more about her affair.. voluntarily. Things clicked in her own head, by virtue of realizing her emotional needs.


I am not surprised he is successful. People usually have a reason for what they are doing. Understand that and you can redirect them.

But understanding them takes the ability to see past your own hurt pride. It takes humility. I think that is the stumbling block.

But for those who are able to do it, like the man mentioned above, what is salvaged is very meaningful. Home saved, finances saved, kids not disrupted and made vulnerable, voluntary, sincere reconciliation from the wife. Big payoff for an investment in setting aside pride and instead focusing on humility and understanding.

I do not think the guy sleeping on the couch is passive. I think he is a gentleman. I think he is intelligent, mature, and compassionate. And I think he truly loves his wife and kids. That is what enables him to do what he is doing.

And he is getting results. She is voluntarily seeking him out. And he knows his support is aiding her healing. Sounds like a true husband.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> How? Because men want sex and women want commitment?
> 
> I am sure some women want sex. I think most want love. I am sure you are familiar with the saying, "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."


Myth...

Men want to feel special, and want sex.. Women want to feel special, and want sex. Men and women both like love and sex.

Women don't want the world to think they are having sex to have sex, so they are giving it away for attention. That's a crock of bull... Do they enjoy the sex? Or do they lay there and think "oh, i can't wait for this to end so I can cuddle and get some attention"

I'm a man, and actually, as wonderful as hot kinky sex is, I'm more into the love and romance thing. I want passion, I want attention, I want a woman to need me. I have needs beyond sex, imagine that? I also bet there are women out there that not only like attention, they have needs beyond attention, like a need for sex!

So to summarize: Don't believe everything you read.


----------



## Maricha75

Yes! Russell, you nailed it. I am one of the women you described above. I have the love. I have the attention. I want more sex with my husband than what I currently get. But he is content with "status quo". This is why I LAUGH when I see anyone using the ridiculous stereotypes about men and women. They just aren't true in all cases. Tbh, I'd wager that MOST cases don't fit the stereotypes, but too many believe they are true.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

marduk said:


> I've been cheated on and I think it's decent advice.
> 
> Nothing will stop those that have decided to cheat. But figuring out what your spouse wants and fulfilling that probably reduces the odds.
> 
> What's wrong with that?


I think there is one big misconception in all of this.

What you're describing is how to have a more fulfilling marriage. Now for SOME a more fulfilling marriage will lessen the odds of an affair, but for others, it doesn't mean squat diddly. Some cheaters (men AND women) will cheat just to cheat. The status of their marriage is irrelevant to that decision.

Not having a fulfilling marriage and cheating are not mutually inclusive.

Meeting your wife's "Deepest emotional needs" is about fulfillment. NOT about her not cheating.

IF the wife is a selfish woman with poor boundaries and loves external validation from men....it won't matter how much her husband does. When Mr Personal Trainer comes along, and starts really complimenting her, and playing "let me caress you're newly developed muscles while I invade your personal space intimately", eventually there will be an affair. REGARDLESS of the husband.

There is too much attention paid to the surroundings for figuring out why someone cheats and not enough psycho-analysis.

Here's what I would look at for why someone cheats.

They have the following traits
Narcissist
Poor Boundaries
Looks for external validation
Sexually curious
Low self esteem

I wouldn't look to "husband or wife doesn't meet needs"

If, as a husband, your wife is high in self sacrifice, has strong boundaries, doesn't need male validation and has high self esteem, the odds of her cheating, even if her needs aren't met, are VERY low.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> How? Because men want sex and women want commitment?
> 
> I am sure some women want sex. I think most want love. I am sure you are familiar with the saying, "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."


We're speaking about married people.

Most married men want commitment AND sex. Most married women want commitment AND sex.

Men don't give love to get sex. They EQUATE sex to love. There's a HUGE difference. If my wife is riding me like she stole me everyday...I'm thinking she loves me. The onus is on the love not the sex. That's where your statement really misses the mark. But this isn't just a man thing. Women (not all) also see it this way.

Think of the 5 love languages. If your language is physical touch, you usually equate sex with love, with the thing you're trying to attain is love and sex is the means. Now, men probably score higher on physical touch than women (statistically speaking, but I've never researched that). But some women still have the same desires.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Given everything you know about your marriage and relationship to Dug, what choice would you make if you discovered that all of his time away on business isn't just business?
> 
> Same could be asked of you, would Dug tolerate and look to sort through the reasons why you might choose to have an affair in his absence or would he walk?
> 
> Do you have ANY idea of the number of people that have come here with lifestyle scenarios exactly as you outline? Mom stays at home and dad travels often for work ... and they thought their marriage was great too?


I would certainly be shocked. I trust Dug implicitly. In 21 years I have never seen him give another woman a second glance, never seen him treat women with anything other than courtesy and respect.

I would ask him who he wants, because he is not going to have both of us. I have too much pride to share. I would rather be alone.

Gosh, I would be so hurt. It would hit me like my son's cancer. Just unreal, and out of the blue. 

And I would have to accept it, and struggle through it. Because if he would cheat, I would know he would not be strong enough to heal me. I would have to help heal him. And I just do not think I am strong enough to do that.

I can't see myself using control techniques. I am not technical at all. And really, if I cannot trust him, that is not really a relationship. Our relationship is based on his integrity. That is what inspires my trust. Lose that, and you are left, imo, with a regular 50/50 no trust, constantly weighing the power balance slog. Just not of interest to me.

I don't think he would ever throw me away, Deejo. He loves me and knows me too well. And with the level of transparency that I give him, I just do not see how this could happen. 

I tell him everything. He is my own personal priest, my confessor. He does not feel threatened by my occasional attraction to other men. He says I have a big imagination. 

I tell him right away when I have impure thoughts. Takes the power out of them.

I trust Dug to take care of me, to keep me from hurting myself and us. I look up to him. That is a big part of our relationship.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> I am not surprised he is successful. People usually have a reason for what they are doing. Understand that and you can redirect them.
> 
> But understanding them takes the ability to see past your own hurt pride. It takes humility. I think that is the stumbling block.
> 
> But for those who are able to do it, like the man mentioned above, what is salvaged is very meaningful. Home saved, finances saved, kids not disrupted and made vulnerable, voluntary, sincere reconciliation from the wife. Big payoff for an investment in setting aside pride and instead focusing on humility and understanding.
> 
> I do not think the guy sleeping on the couch is passive. I think he is a gentleman. I think he is intelligent, mature, and compassionate. And I think he truly loves his wife and kids. That is what enables him to do what he is doing.
> 
> And he is getting results. She is voluntarily seeking him out. And he knows his support is aiding her healing. Sounds like a true husband.


My exwife was a narcissist. It permeated our marriage. I dealt with it but it eventually drove us apart. I was an accessory to her in her mind regardless of what I tried. She cheated, but that's not even why we divorced. The question becomes, why would you even WANT to deal with a narcissist?

It gets old FAST! Now there are different levels of course, and maybe a LITTLE narcissism is okay, but still.

I don't know how someone (man or woman) R's with a narcissist. You're going to have to stay on your toes and WORK in order to stay married for the rest of your life. I already work 8-5. I'm not going to work the other waking hours.

After tasting what a GOOD marriage to a GREAT woman (who's NOT a narcissist) is like, I'd NEVER go back. It's one thing I teach my kids, hopefully by example AND word, if you have to WORK at your relationship, beyond loyalty...it's not a good relationship. Sexuality, desire to meet your partner's needs, communication, trust, loyalty even should come naturally.


----------



## jld

Dad&Hubby said:


> My exwife was a narcissist. It permeated our marriage. I dealt with it but it eventually drove us apart. I was an accessory to her in her mind regardless of what I tried. She cheated, but that's not even why we divorced. The question becomes, why would you even WANT to deal with a narcissist?
> 
> It gets old FAST! Now there are different levels of course, and maybe a LITTLE narcissism is okay, but still.
> 
> I don't know how someone (man or woman) R's with a narcissist. You're going to have to stay on your toes and WORK in order to stay married for the rest of your life. I already work 8-5. I'm not going to work the other waking hours.
> 
> After tasting what a GOOD marriage to a GREAT woman (who's NOT a narcissist) is like, I'd NEVER go back. It's one thing I teach my kids, hopefully by example AND word, if you have to WORK at your relationship, beyond loyalty...it's not a good relationship. Sexuality, desire to meet your partner's needs, communication, trust, loyalty even should come naturally.


You said she is doing a lot better with her new guy, right? That they are a more compatible match?

No sense staying together when you are both better off apart.


----------



## loyallad

jld said:


> How? Because men want sex and women want commitment?
> 
> I am sure some women want sex. I think most want love. I am sure you are familiar with the saying, "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."


Last time I checked you don't have to love someone to have sex with them. That goes for both men and women. If the only reason someone gets married is just to have sex then I'm 100% sure there will be a less than happy ending to the marriage.


----------



## Deejo

Appreciate the response.

As another poster has pointed out, there are people that come here, and trust their spouse implicitly ... only to discover they are cheating.

A marriage needn't always be a train-wreck of unmet needs to foster an affair.

And many men and women NEVER have the intention of leaving their marriage. They just want their strange on the side. 

So if I understand you correctly, you would be too hurt and your trust would be broken if you discovered your husband had been having an ongoing affair to consider trying to mend the marriage.

But in Dug's case, you believe if he discovered you were having sex with another man, that he wouldn't want to let you go? Is that correct?

We often have a need to put reasons 'why' something happens in neat little boxes. In truth, I don't really believe the reasons between why men and women cheat are all that much different.

There are those who do so because they are or feel emotionally adrift, abandoned, lonely, frozen out, diminished ... a few kind words of engagement can be all that is required.

And there are others who treat it as a sport, in the same way people feel compelled to compete, or climb Everest, sky-dive, or run with the bulls in Pamplona. It's thrilling.

I've met my share of both sexes who fill these categories. 





jld said:


> I would certainly be shocked. I trust Dug implicitly. In 21 years I have never seen him give another woman a second glance, never seen him treat women with anything other than courtesy and respect.
> 
> I would ask him who he wants, because he is not going to have both of us. I have too much pride to share. I would rather be alone.
> 
> Gosh, I would be so hurt. It would hit me like my son's cancer. Just unreal, and out of the blue.
> 
> And I would have to accept it, and struggle through it. Because if he would cheat, I would know he would not be strong enough to heal me. I would have to help heal him. And I just do not think I am strong enough to do that.
> 
> I can't see myself using control techniques. I am not technical at all. And really, if I cannot trust him, that is not really a relationship. Our relationship is based on his integrity. That is what inspires my trust. Lose that, and you are left, imo, with a regular 50/50 no trust, constantly weighing the power balance slog. Just not of interest to me.
> 
> I don't think he would ever throw me away, Deejo. He loves me and knows me too well. And with the level of transparency that I give him, I just do not see how this could happen.
> 
> I tell him everything. He is my own personal priest, my confessor. He does not feel threatened by my occasional attraction to other men. He says I have a big imagination.
> 
> I tell him right away when I have impure thoughts. Takes the power out of them.
> 
> I trust Dug to take care of me, to keep me from hurting myself and us. I look up to him. That is a big part of our relationship.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> So if I understand you correctly, you would be too hurt and your trust would be broken if you discovered your husband had been having an ongoing affair to consider trying to mend the marriage.
> 
> But in Dug's case, you believe if he discovered you were having sex with another man, that he wouldn't want to let you go? Is that correct?
> 
> We often have a need to put reasons 'why' something happens in neat little boxes. In truth, I don't really believe the reasons between why men and women cheat are all that much different.
> 
> There are those who do so because they are or feel emotionally adrift, abandoned, lonely, frozen out, diminished ... a few kind words of engagement can be all that is required.
> 
> And there are others who treat it as a sport, in the same way people feel compelled to compete, or climb Everest, sky-dive, or run with the bulls in Pamplona. It's thrilling.
> 
> I've met my share of both sexes who fill these categories.


I don't think I am strong enough to heal him. And if he cheated, I think that is what he would need from me. 

I would agree that the categories are the same. I doubt the percentages are.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> But understanding them takes the ability to see past your own hurt pride. It takes humility. I think that is the stumbling block.
> ….Big payoff for an investment in setting aside pride and instead focusing on humility and understanding.





jld said:


> I would ask him who he wants, because he is not going to have both of us. I have too much pride to share. I would rather be alone.


Really.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



jld said:


> I don't think I am strong enough to heal him. And if he cheated, I think that is what he would need from me.
> 
> I would agree that the categories are the same. I doubt the percentages are.


But that's just it, JLD. YOU CANNOT do it. HE would have to heal himself, whether with counseling or without. YOU would have to heal YOURSELF. That would be your FIRST concern. And I know, that would be the hardest thing for you. But since you have not gone through infidelity in your own marriage, it's a concept that is very hard to grasp, for you. And I totally get that!


----------



## IIJokerII

Dad&Hubby said:


> I think there is one big misconception in all of this.
> 
> What you're describing is how to have a more fulfilling marriage. Now for SOME a more fulfilling marriage will lessen the odds of an affair, but for others, it doesn't mean squat diddly. Some cheaters (men AND women) will cheat just to cheat. The status of their marriage is irrelevant to that decision.
> 
> Not having a fulfilling marriage and cheating are not mutually inclusive.
> 
> Meeting your wife's "Deepest emotional needs" is about fulfillment. NOT about her not cheating.
> 
> IF the wife is a selfish woman with poor boundaries and loves external validation from men....it won't matter how much her husband does. When Mr Personal Trainer comes along, and starts really complimenting her, and playing "let me caress you're newly developed muscles while I invade your personal space intimately", eventually there will be an affair. REGARDLESS of the husband.
> 
> There is too much attention paid to the surroundings for figuring out why someone cheats and not enough psycho-analysis.
> 
> Here's what I would look at for why someone cheats.
> 
> They have the following traits
> Narcissist
> Poor Boundaries
> Looks for external validation
> Sexually curious
> Low self esteem
> 
> I wouldn't look to "husband or wife doesn't meet needs"
> 
> If, as a husband, your wife is high in self sacrifice, has strong boundaries, doesn't need male validation and has high self esteem, the odds of her cheating, even if her needs aren't met, are VERY low.


Boo-yah, praise be the lord that someone finally gets it. These traits are EXACTLY what makes it easier for someone to make the CHOICE of cheating and are not catalysts in stimulating an affair.


----------



## loyallad

jld said:


> And I would have to accept it, and struggle through it. Because if he would cheat, I would know he would not be strong enough to heal me. I would have to help heal him. And I just do not think I am strong enough to do that.
> 
> I can't see myself using control techniques. I am not technical at all. And really, if I cannot trust him, that is not really a relationship. Our relationship is based on his integrity. That is what inspires my trust. Lose that, and you are left, imo, with a regular 50/50 no trust, constantly weighing the power balance slog. Just not of interest to me.


There it is people, husband cheats wife loses trust. He has no integrity. Don't disagree at all. BW shows WH the door. BW doesn't cut WH slack. She doesn't have to even if there were things in the marriage she could have done different or better or not at all. 

And here it comes: But we've seen on here jld thinks cheating wives deserve a break because, you know, you betrayed husbands you had something to do with causing wifey to cheat. Sorry jld you can't have it both ways. Doesn't matter, 
men or women, betrayal and broken trust are the same to both.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I don't think I am strong enough to heal him. And if he cheated, I think that is what he would need from me.


If he did cheat on you, what do you think the reason would be?


----------



## Marduk

loyallad said:


> News flash, WS before they cheated probably weren't fulfilling their end either and darn sure aren't perfect. Some people can live with the less than perfect because nobody is perfect. I am ready to throw up hearing all this "didn't fulfill their needs" bullcrap. This stuff sounds like some stuff put in women's magazines. People cheat because they can. They don't value their spouse, their marriage and their morals are lacking. I guess honor and loyalty are just unrealistic values and the ME, ME, ME craze rules the day.
> 
> Figuring out what your spouse wants...........? What is this the guessing game? Think we found the problem Houston. BS are to be sooth sayers and seers. If you were/are the same person after you got married that you were before you got married shouldn't the WS that is not being fulfilled emotionally noticed this before marrying someone? O wait that's not really the problem, WS just bored with old you, you're boring, I need a challenge someone to make me feel good about myself. Meanwhile ole soon to be BS just plods along until the freight train runs him over.
> 
> Pointing out to the BS they could or should have done things different in the marriage is like going to the doctor and telling him it hurts when I do this. And the doctor says "Don't do that". WS could and should do something before cheating. That's an obvious one too but some want to make this into what's really wrong with you BS. They do it with their backhand comments.
> 
> While we want to kick this old unfulfilled emotionally stuff how about the WS and their A. Is this not unfulfilling to the BS? Their WS is spending their emotions on OP. Tough cookies BS roll over and take it, you caused this. Take your medicine. Whatever happened to people owning up to their wrongs? They're some WS that have come on here and admitted what they did. Good for you, but for those that don't please don't try to blame BS for the affair. They may have part of the blame for the marriage going sideways but not the A. And for those that haven't experienced the pain over being cheated and betrayed and want to come on here and spit out your two cents worth, keep it to yourself. You're the type of person that likes to strike matches and watch them burn. It's like someone that never had kids and wants to give parental advise. You may get a couple of things right but you really rubs salt into the wound with flip comments.


News flash, that wasn't what I said at all.

I was cheated on more than a decade ago and I'm still dealing with it even though I've been happily married to someone else for a long time.

My point is this: you can't control the other person but you can control yourself.

You can't stop someone from cheating but you can keep your head on a swivel and you can in many cases reduce the odds that it will happen to you.

Just like you can respond effectively and take control of the situation if it did happen to you.

This isn't "taking my medicine." This isn't "rolling over."

This is trying to understand human nature. And I don't let my ex off the hook one bit, but I do now know what I could have done to reduce the odds that she would have cheated on me.

In retrospect I'm actually glad I didn't, because I'm now well rid of her.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I don't think I am strong enough to heal him. And if he cheated, I think that is what he would need from me.
> 
> I would agree that the categories are the same. I doubt the percentages are.


The percentages of truth, or the percentages of blame shifting done? It was addressed why the percentages are skewed. Cheating people that lie and take surveys, say 'my spouse made me cheat' More women than men, because it's cool for men to like sex, but if women like sex they are tramps. That's how it's worked for centuries.


----------



## vellocet

loyallad said:


> There it is people, husband cheats wife loses trust. He has no integrity. Don't disagree at all. BW shows WH the door. BW doesn't cut WH slack. She doesn't have to even if there were things in the marriage she could have done different or better or not at all.
> 
> And here it comes: But we've seen on here jld thinks cheating wives deserve a break because, you know, you betrayed husbands you had something to do with causing wifey to cheat. Sorry jld you can't have it both ways. Doesn't matter,
> men or women, betrayal and broken trust are the same to both.


Its what I've been saying all along. 

But expect the irrelevant reply to this to be on the lines of, "the man doesn't have to take the cheating wife back, that's his choice" Well DUH


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> You said she is doing a lot better with her new guy, right? That they are a more compatible match?
> 
> No sense staying together when you are both better off apart.


Yeah, I THINK she grew up after our divorce..who knows. She didn't handle losing her control of me well at first. Even after the divorce was finalized. I don't know if he just lets her run him ragged (although knowing him, I'd doubt it). I don't know their relationship beyond that they are together, he's good to my kids and my kids like him.


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> I would certainly be shocked. I trust Dug implicitly. In 21 years I have never seen him give another woman a second glance, never seen him treat women with anything other than courtesy and respect.
> 
> I would ask him who he wants, because he is not going to have both of us. I have too much pride to share. I would rather be alone.
> 
> Gosh, I would be so hurt. It would hit me like my son's cancer. Just unreal, and out of the blue.
> 
> And I would have to accept it, and struggle through it. Because if he would cheat, I would know he would not be strong enough to heal me. I would have to help heal him. And I just do not think I am strong enough to do that.
> 
> I can't see myself using control techniques. I am not technical at all. And really, if I cannot trust him, that is not really a relationship. Our relationship is based on his integrity. That is what inspires my trust. Lose that, and you are left, imo, with a regular 50/50 no trust, constantly weighing the power balance slog. Just not of interest to me.
> 
> I don't think he would ever throw me away, Deejo. He loves me and knows me too well. And with the level of transparency that I give him, I just do not see how this could happen.
> 
> I tell him everything. He is my own personal priest, my confessor. He does not feel threatened by my occasional attraction to other men. He says I have a big imagination.
> 
> I tell him right away when I have impure thoughts. Takes the power out of them.
> 
> I trust Dug to take care of me, to keep me from hurting myself and us. I look up to him. That is a big part of our relationship.




Your main premise of this thread is that women cheat for emotional needs. 

Yet, your post above is about your husband meeting your emotional needs, you even call him your personal priest, confessor, and you've stated you're sure he's never looked at another woman and only loves you. 

Despite all those emotional needs your husband fulfills, you admit that you have "impure thoughts" anyway. His perfection is not enough to cure you of impure thoughts. 

Don't you see how ridiculous your argument is. You've just proven that no matter how saintly,, priest like a person is, they have no bearing on the "impure thoughts" that arise. 

Why would you have impure thoughts if all your needs were being met? 

it's absurd, that you've placed the burden on your husband to be the gatekeeper of harming yourself or your marriage. 

Your reasoning and your narrative is convoluted to say the least.

No one is responsible or the gatekeeper of anyone's choice to cheat, male or female.

This thread is not about learning or growing it's about blame narrative.


----------



## vellocet

Served Cold said:


> Your main premise of this thread is that women cheat for emotional needs.
> 
> Yet, your post above is about your husband meeting your emotional needs, you even call him your personal priest, confessor, and you've stated you're sure he's never looked at another woman and only loves you.














> Despite all those emotional needs your husband fulfills, you admit that you have "impure thoughts" anyway. His perfection is not enough to cure you of impure thoughts.
> 
> Don't you see how ridiculous your argument is. You've just proven that no matter how saintly,, priest like a person is, they have no bearing on the "impure thoughts" that arise.
> 
> Why would you have impure thoughts if all your needs were being met?
> 
> it's absurd, that you've placed the burden on your husband to be the gatekeeper of harming yourself or your marriage.
> 
> Your reasoning and your narrative is convoluted to say the least.
> 
> No one is responsible or the gatekeeper of anyone's choice to cheat, male or female.
> 
> This thread is not about learning or growing it's about blame narrative.


Dead on balls accurate


----------



## jld

loyallad said:


> There it is people, husband cheats wife loses trust. He has no integrity. Don't disagree at all. BW shows WH the door. BW doesn't cut WH slack. She doesn't have to even if there were things in the marriage she could have done different or better or not at all.
> 
> And here it comes: But we've seen on here jld thinks cheating wives deserve a break because, you know, you betrayed husbands you had something to do with causing wifey to cheat. Sorry jld you can't have it both ways. Doesn't matter,
> men or women, betrayal and broken trust are the same to both.


Anyone can divorce at any time for any reason.

No one "deserves" a break. Some people do want to give a second chance, though. It is their choice.


----------



## jld

Dad&Hubby said:


> Yeah, I THINK she grew up after our divorce..who knows. She didn't handle losing her control of me well at first. Even after the divorce was finalized. I don't know if he just lets her run him ragged (although knowing him, I'd doubt it). I don't know their relationship beyond that they are together, he's good to my kids and my kids like him.


I think he just handles her better. It is okay to admit that. He probably would not handle your new wife as well as you do.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> If he did cheat on you, what do you think the reason would be?


Meeting someone who meets his needs better? A more compatible fit?


----------



## Maricha75

Unfortunately, JLD, your stance has been such that many have been put off. You have intimated that if a man has any integrity, he will reconcile with his wayward wife. You have stated that if he is truly a good man, he will look at himself to see why she cheated on him. Do you even fathom how ridiculous that sounds??? "You cheated, but it's all my fault." What?? And then you back pedal, time after time, when people call you on it. In nearly EVERY thread, you have done this. 

*smh* Folks, she's not gonna get it. Unless/until either she or Dug cheats, she won't be able to grasp the concept. I think, maybe, Dug might understand. But I am not completely certain.


----------



## jld

Served Cold said:


> Your main premise of this thread is that women cheat for emotional needs.
> 
> Yet, your post above is about your husband meeting your emotional needs, you even call him your personal priest, confessor, and you've stated you're sure he's never looked at another woman and only loves you.
> 
> Despite all those emotional needs your husband fulfills, you admit that you have "impure thoughts" anyway. His perfection is not enough to cure you of impure thoughts.
> 
> Don't you see how ridiculous your argument is. You've just proven that no matter how saintly,, priest like a person is, they have no bearing on the "impure thoughts" that arise.
> 
> Why would you have impure thoughts if all your needs were being met?
> 
> it's absurd, that you've placed the burden on your husband to be the gatekeeper of harming yourself or your marriage.
> 
> Your reasoning and your narrative is convoluted to say the least.
> 
> No one is responsible or the gatekeeper of anyone's choice to cheat, male or female.
> 
> This thread is not about learning or growing it's about blame narrative.


It does bother me that I have impure thoughts. I don't think I should. I should think only of him.

One thing I have noticed is that the more attention and affection I get from him, the less attracted I feel to other men at all. 

It is like when you are full, you just are not interested in eating anymore, no matter how good the food is. That is why I am always asking for attention and affection. I do not even want to be tempted.

And Dug is not perfect. He tells me that regularly.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Meeting someone who meets his needs better? A more compatible fit?


That's not what you said when conveying that you would hesitate to recommend a cheating wife take back a husband due to him just fulfilling his sexual need to have a variety of partners.

That coupled with the fact that you don't think there is anything you can do to prevent him from cheating since his reasons would obviously have to be for that other than your shortcomings.


----------



## cpacan

jld said:


> I would certainly be shocked. I trust Dug implicitly. In 21 years I have never seen him give another woman a second glance, never seen him treat women with anything other than courtesy and respect.
> 
> I would ask him who he wants, because he is not going to have both of us. I have too much pride to share. I would rather be alone.
> 
> Gosh, I would be so hurt. It would hit me like my son's cancer. Just unreal, and out of the blue.
> 
> And I would have to accept it, and struggle through it. Because if he would cheat, I would know he would not be strong enough to heal me. I would have to help heal him. And I just do not think I am strong enough to do that.
> 
> I can't see myself using control techniques. I am not technical at all. And really, if I cannot trust him, that is not really a relationship. Our relationship is based on his integrity. That is what inspires my trust. Lose that, and you are left, imo, with a regular 50/50 no trust, constantly weighing the power balance slog. Just not of interest to me.
> 
> I don't think he would ever throw me away, Deejo. He loves me and knows me too well. And with the level of transparency that I give him, I just do not see how this could happen.
> 
> I tell him everything. He is my own personal priest, my confessor. He does not feel threatened by my occasional attraction to other men. He says I have a big imagination.
> 
> I tell him right away when I have impure thoughts. Takes the power out of them.
> 
> I trust Dug to take care of me, to keep me from hurting myself and us. I look up to him. That is a big part of our relationship.


I've been holding my breath, given you the benefit of doubt. This post of yours is where I get 110% convinced that you just don't get it. You chose to disregard Deejos question - do you have any idea how many peopl ended up here, who could've written your words exactly how you wrote them? I know I could've said the exact same things you do, four years ago, the exact same words.... and yet here I am on the receiving end.

I don't blame you for not understanding it, you haven't lived it, so how could you possibly grasp it - I had no idea either untill D-day hit me. Do you actually believe that we all come here and just should've known better, that we're all just a bunch of idiots who haven't got a clue about how to be in a relationship?

What I struggle to understand is, how on earth you manage to convince yourself, that it's in your place to tell everyone here how they're supposed to feel, think and act on a topic in which you have NO experience whatsoever???

I'm sorry to say this; I feel that a lot of the posts come across, to me at least, as condescending, arrogant and cold (rude would probably be a stretch).


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> That's not what you said when conveying that you would hesitate to recommend a cheating wife take back a husband due to him just fulfilling his sexual need to have a variety of partners.
> 
> That coupled with the fact that you don't think there is anything you can do to prevent him from cheating since his reasons would obviously have to be for that other than your shortcomings.


You asked me specifically why I thought Dug would cheat. I gave you an answer.

And really, if he would be happier with someone else, he should be with her. 

If I really love him, I want the best for him, right?


----------



## staystrong

jld, no one can predict how they would feel or react if they discover they are cheated on. Even in your case, where you are 'aware' of the possibility. I think if there were emotions involved, it would crush you. Or to know another woman was sitting on Dug's lap whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Everything that was special about you and Dug would be so much less special. Especially after all the 'research' the two of you have done together. Because if he's cheating, he knows it would harm you, and it may you could get over that direct harm to YOU, not just your marriage. It's tough, really tough.


----------



## jld

Off sightseeing for the day. 

I am sure I would be devastated. Just like when I learned of my son's cancer.

Accepting it was the only thing that helped me cope.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> You asked me specifically why I thought Dug would cheat. I gave you an answer.



Yup, and just as I thought, your answer contradicts your statements about taking back a cheating man


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Anyone can divorce at any time for any reason.


See loyallad, didn't I tell ya this would be the sidestep answer that has nothing to do with what you were saying?

Too predictable. Do I need to post another picture of someone pedaling backwards?


----------



## loyallad

marduk said:


> News flash, that wasn't what I said at all.
> 
> I was cheated on more than a decade ago and I'm still dealing with it even though I've been happily married to someone else for a long time.
> 
> My point is this: you can't control the other person but you can control yourself.
> 
> You can't stop someone from cheating but you can keep your head on a swivel and you can in many cases reduce the odds that it will happen to you.
> 
> Just like you can respond effectively and take control of the situation if it did happen to you.
> 
> This isn't "taking my medicine." This isn't "rolling over."
> 
> This is trying to understand human nature. And I don't let my ex off the hook one bit, but I do now know what I could have done to reduce the odds that she would have cheated on me.
> 
> In retrospect I'm actually glad I didn't, because I'm now well rid of her.


My point is it doesn't matter what you do some, and I qualify that as some not all, spouses will cheat regardless. You can lead a horse to water..... 

All that wasn't aimed at you Marduk, but we have some one on here that keeps throwing out her flip comments that the BH have a hand in the betrayal. If a WS cheats then comes back with you didn't do this or that or you woulda, shoulda, coulda well lets give WS benefit of the doubt, whereas if a man did that then he's not allowed the same treatment.

A lot of WS that claim things in the marriage is the reason to cheat are really rewriting history or justifying their actions in their own mind. Am I saying BS have no faults, of course not. A lot of people I personally know of that cheat never told their BS there's a problem that is so bad they are considering having an A. Not denying that some WS may have brought things up to BS and were ignored or it was disregarded. Just like there is three sides to every story, WS side, BS side and somewhere in between. I never once was told by my WW I need to do this or I should do that or I need you to be this. Never heard any of that. She's a woman that has told me numerous times she's not much for affection. Okay well then I tried to treat her as special as I could. None of that mattered.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> I think he just handles her better. It is okay to admit that. He probably would not handle your new wife as well as you do.


His handling of her that you suggest is as ignorant as it is disrespectful. Grown ups make grown up decisions and in the end our choices make us. This new individual may suit her needs which might have been recalibrated as the underlying fact that her losing control of her ex-husband left a lasting stigma that affected her permanently. 

As Dad&Hubby described it this new gentlemen more than likely put the kibosh on any BS from the get go and as he also said she did not react well to her losing control of him. Given this opinion she probably lost a lot of self esteem in the process. 

In any case, people are in control, mostly, of their own actions and know full well what will happen regardless of what that action is. To say that a wife needs to be "Handled" is a meager attempt to void her of being responsible for her actions or capable of self sustaining without spousal intervention.


----------



## Marduk

Dad&Hubby said:


> I think there is one big misconception in all of this.
> 
> What you're describing is how to have a more fulfilling marriage. Now for SOME a more fulfilling marriage will lessen the odds of an affair, but for others, it doesn't mean squat diddly. Some cheaters (men AND women) will cheat just to cheat. The status of their marriage is irrelevant to that decision.


I agree with everything you're saying except the misconception.

That was my point, perhaps I didn't make it well.

Here was my decision tree when I was worried my current wife was going to cheat:

Path A:
continue to be a nervous, butthurt wreck and beg her to stop/stay, be worried about everything she did, and check in on her constantly.

If she was on the fence of cheating:
I realized that this would actually drive her away from me and towards somewhere else, so not a good strategy here.

If she was going to cheat no matter what I did:
I was giving her a get out of jail free card by being controlling and insecure, and was not setting myself up well for re-entering the dating game. So not a good strategy here, either.

If she wasn't going to cheat no matter what I did:
I was making both of us unhappy and driving a wedge between us. So not a good strategy here.

Path B:
Let her go if she was going to go. Become the best I could be, try to at least act more secure, but trust but verify. Spend more time doing my own thing. In short, become the guy I was when we met again.

If she was on the fence of cheating:
This might wake her up and get her to chase me for a change. More flies with honey and all that. So a good strategy.

If she was going to cheat no matter what I did:
This would clear my head and put me in a good spot in a divorce and as I re-entered the dating game.

If she was never going to cheat no matter what I did:
This would put me in a far better place for me, and hence our marriage. Plus, she'd be a whole hell of a lot more attracted to me.

That was my logic.

And it still is my logic.

Some people are always going to cheat. I think my ex is like this. Nothing I could do but cut my losses, learn, and live well.

Some (and I think this is a lot of people) will cheat given the means, motive, and opportunity. I found limiting the opportunity wasn't a good strategy -- everyone can create an opportunity if they have the motive. Trying to work on the motivation seemed to be a good strategy; if people don't want to cheat they're less likely to.

So that's my thinking.


----------



## loyallad

vellocet said:


> See loyallad, didn't I tell ya this would be the sidestep answer that has nothing to do with what you were saying?
> 
> Too predictable. Do I need to post another picture of someone pedaling backwards?


You're right vel. She (jld) talks out of both sides of her pie hole and when she gets called on it throws out a blanket statements such as anyone can get a divorce..........

She's not on here to help or support BS's. I think she's one of those that like to hear about other people's problems and then throws out flip little comments to get a reaction regardless of how hurtful it come out. It's all a game to her.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> I think he just handles her better. It is okay to admit that. He probably would not handle your new wife as well as you do.


Damn.

I think it's been asked before - but why are you here? You're not "coping with infidelity". I've never encountered such prolific posters in this forum who have no experience with the topic at hand.


----------



## Machiavelli

jld said:


> How? Because men want sex and women want commitment?
> 
> I am sure some women want sex. I think most want love. I am sure you are familiar with the saying, "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."


No, because men want to spread their oats to (almost) every available woman, but women only want the best available oats. Pareto principal, in other words. Notice how this is research was done on a website devoted to no strings sex. The women trolling for NSA sex still exhibited the sexual selectivity that is genetically imprinted, even though they didn't want "love" or "commitment."


----------



## ThePheonix

Maricha75 said:


> Unfortunately, JLD, your stance has been such that many have been put off.


Its clear that most believe a cheater is 100% responsible for the act of cheating. I agree, and its pure common sense, that if you choose to go down that road, or any other road (choosing to divorce for example) you are 100% responsible for that choice and the consequences of that choice.
Nevertheless, its a tough argument to say to disagreeable actions and behavior of one spouse does not cause the other to explore the options of leaving, spending sprees, and other reactions including cheating in some situations. Placing all the blame for cheating on the guilty spouse is one thing and the person cheating has chosen the low road. Placing all the blame on the guilty spouse, while self righteously ignoring your own possible "misdemeanors" undermining the marriage is another. JLD's advice of taking a personal inventory is not bad advice. Good advise is not always pleasant to hear.
Again, whatever action the injured/ill-treated spouse or the betrayed spouse takes, they are 100% responsible for that decision, including doing nothing.


----------



## ThePheonix

Machiavelli said:


> No, because men want to spread their oats to (almost) every available woman, but women only want the best available oats.


Probably because women bear the offspring. If men had to deal with bearing a baby, they'd be more choosy.


----------



## Healer

ThePheonix said:


> Its clear that most believe a cheater is 100% responsible for the act of cheating. I agree, and its pure common sense, that if you choose to go down that road, or any other road (choosing to divorce for example) you are 100% responsible for that choice and the consequences of that choice.
> Nevertheless, its a tough argument to say to disagreeable actions and behavior of one spouse does not cause the other to explore the options of leaving, spending sprees, and other reactions including cheating in some situations. Placing all the blame for cheating on the guilty spouse is one thing and the person cheating has chosen the low road. Placing all the blame on the guilty spouse, while self righteously ignoring your own possible "misdemeanors" undermining the marriage is another. JLD's advice of taking a personal inventory is not bad advice. Good advise is not always pleasant to hear.
> Again, whatever action the injured/ill-treated spouse takes, they are 100% responsible for that decision, including doing nothing.


You completely contradict yourself within the same post. 

"Cheating is 100% on the cheater", but "the BS did things to cause the cheating".

Lol.


----------



## staystrong

I remember when my XW was having an A and we were watching a show where a woman was having a TV version 'romantic EA' (with a kiss) with her art teacher. The H was kind of a grump, worked in shed, didn't pay attention to her. Of course, they only scripted him like this during this period. He clearly was not 'meeting her emotional needs' and had to be 'trained' on how to listen to her. I am not like the guy at all, but I am sure this sort of messaging fed into my XW's head and millions of other women. That it was somehow acceptable to have someone come around and appreciate her because her husband was not. I am sure my XW tried to convey a similar vision. She even quoted one of the lines from that episode that was supposed to be instructive to the husband. I mean give me a freaking break. That's Hollywood, that's not real life.


----------



## russell28

Machiavelli said:


> No, because men want to spread their oats to (almost) every available woman, but women only want the best available oats. Pareto principal, in other words. Notice how this is research was done on a website devoted to no strings sex. The women trolling for NSA sex still exhibited the sexual selectivity that is genetically imprinted, even though they didn't want "love" or "commitment."


I will add that an intelligent male also cares about who he mates with, because he doesn't want to make freaks any more than a woman does.. Sure he'll make more of them, because he doesn't have a 9 month cycle so he might be less choosy.. but in his mind, he's looking for attractive mates also, not just a warm vajajay in every case.. Aka, I need a pretty face.. not a butter face.. I also need a brain, just can't mate with a moron.. I can't take them long enough to get to that point.

Of course all my research was done in 6th through 11th grade..


----------



## Machiavelli

ThePheonix said:


> Probably because women bear the offspring. If men had to deal with bearing a baby, they'd be more choosy.


Just so.


----------



## Deejo

JLD and her husband use a captain/first mate model in their marriage ... it's what they do and it works for them.

Don't know that they would label it as such. But as jld points out, it is most certainly not the more mainstream or conventional belief of the '50/50' marriage. Whether or not that model is effectively more 'traditional' remains to be seen in my opinion.

Nor do I believe the model you adhere to for marriage predisposes you to, or eliminates you from the cheating pool.

As I've said consistently in my tenure here, I'm all for what works. And they work. Bothers me when people take shots at a marriage that is functionally satisfying to both partners.

But we also know what works in some relationships, won't work in others. 

I don't have an investment in changing jld's or dug's belief system; particularly given that they are happy.

They are pretty transparent in my opinion. Doesn't mean anyone is going to like what they see with that transparency.

There's a lot of 'right fighting' going on now, all it tends to do is escalate people's emotions.

I have no problems with calling someone out.

But it would be nice if we could acknowledge that 'ne'er are these 2 paths going to meet'.

No matter how many Louisville Sluggers you bring to the 'conversation', I don't believe that anyone is going to change their core belief system.

Nothing wrong with poking someone's belief system, but you don't need to walk up and shiv them from behind over it.

This isn't directed to anyone in particular, unless of course you think it is.


----------



## loyallad

ThePheonix said:


> Its clear that most believe a cheater is 100% responsible for the act of cheating. I agree, and its pure common sense, that if you choose to go down that road, or any other road (choosing to divorce for example) you are 100% responsible for that choice and the consequences of that choice.
> Nevertheless, its a tough argument to say to disagreeable actions and behavior of one spouse does not cause the other to explore the options of leaving, spending sprees, and other reactions including cheating in some situations. Placing all the blame for cheating on the guilty spouse is one thing and the person cheating has chosen the low road. Placing all the blame on the guilty spouse, while self righteously ignoring your own possible "misdemeanors" undermining the marriage is another. JLD's advice of taking a personal inventory is not bad advice. Good advise is not always pleasant to hear.
> Again, whatever action the injured/ill-treated spouse or the betrayed spouse takes, they are 100% responsible for that decision, including doing nothing.


Blurring the lines. The choice to have an A is the cheaters. We agree on that. Problems in the marriage may be on both given each particular situation. The problem is some of the discussion on this thread has turned to placing some blame on the BS for WS's choice to cheat. I really doubt anyone says to their spouse yep I got this problem and I'm not going to change so if you need to have an A to cope with this go ahead. Or if your spouse accumulates enough "misdemeanors" well Katy bar the door time for an A. Yeah I know that's a lot of sarcasm, it's just one of the services I offer. What I am trying to say is problems in the marriage and an A are two seperate things. The one may have a strong bearing on the other but they are seperate unto themselves. I believe strongly in you make a major commitment try to hold up your end of the deal. "Let your yes be a yes, let you no be a no". You took vows when you were married, they shouldn't be taken lightly. That's why God made adultery one of the "top ten" things not to do because it is so destructive to the family and often times so hard to overcome.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


> No, because men want to spread their oats to (almost) every available woman, but women only want the best available oats. Pareto principal, in other words. Notice how this is research was done on a website devoted to no strings sex. The women trolling for NSA sex still exhibited the sexual selectivity that is genetically imprinted, even though they didn't want "love" or "commitment."


While this is in the general sense true, it's important to remember that people still fall into trends as groups but not necessarily as individuals at points in time.

We're all subject to Bayes' theorem and Gaussian distributions. Meaning that women may peak on desiring strong genetic traits and men may peak on desiring distributed mothers for their offspring as inherent traits does not make it so for individuals of either sex at any point in their sexual lifespan.

In fact, I believe that the overlap is stronger than it is divergent. Both men and women desire strong genetic traits (bilateral symmetry, clear skin, strong hair, low body fat, lean muscle, intelligence, etc) AND we both can also desire at certain times different mates to mix our genes with to ensure successful propagation of our genes down the line.

I believe _most_ women, in general, settle down with one person and as long as their mate keeps the traits going that make them good genetic partners and child providers, are not rampantly subject to hypergamy. 

For example, using the (hugely subjective) hotness scale from 1-10, many 7.5 hotness woman who are married to a 7.5 hotness man who is attentive, a good provider, stays in shape, is good with the kids, and sexes her up in new and exciting ways often... aren't going to run off with the first 8.5 hotness man that comes around.

You don't see too many stable harems any more, is what I'm saying. And to add to the complexity, a woman's monthly cycle and age are strong factors as well.

The reverse is often true as well. The same guy isn't often going to run off with the first 6.5 hotness woman that offers sex for free.

Now, it's a probability distribution curve. Meaning that there are some on the one end that will always try to game the system (cheat and get away with it) and there are some on the other end of the curve.

My point is that a few years ago I thought it was pretty cut and dry. Women desire hypergamy and men desire polygamy as reproductive strategies and they both game the monogamy system accordingly.

Now I'm not so sure how different we are. Yes, the peaks may be different, but the overlaps may be greater than the peaks if you get my thinking.


----------



## Machiavelli

marduk said:


> While this is in the general sense true, it's important to remember that people still fall into trends as groups but not necessarily as individuals at points in time.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Off sightseeing for the day.
> 
> I am sure I would be devastated. Just like when I learned of my son's cancer.
> 
> Accepting it was the only thing that helped me cope.


I'm so sorry to hear about your son jld, I pray for the best for you and your family. I wish you and Dug only good things and want you to know that. I enjoy healthy debate, but a sick child brings everything into perspective. I apologize for any insensitive remarks.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


>


At some point, living life is rolling the dice.

You can stack the odds in your favour and hope for the best, or throw them blind, but you throw them all the same.

Unless you choose not to play the game at all, of course. But we all end up in the same place no matter what.


----------



## Machiavelli

marduk said:


> But we all end up in the same place no matter what.


Six feet under.


----------



## russell28

I would expect all intelligent creatures would want to find a suitable mate, or many of them.. not just quantity, because it's built in to our dna to try to improve the species.. Not just reproduce, but improve.... I emphasize the word "intelligent", there are many people out there that don't fit this description.

..oh boy, this could derail quickly.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


> Six feet under.


Well, my plan is a viking-style pyre, but that's me.

My point is we're all gonna die anyway. I might as well give the good life a shot, and go down with a clear conscience.


----------



## Marduk

russell28 said:


> I would expect all intelligent creatures would want to find a suitable mate, or many of them.. not just quantity, because it's built in to our dna to try to improve the species.. Not just reproduce, but improve.... I emphasize the word "intelligent", there are many people out there that don't fit this description.
> 
> ..oh boy, this could derail quickly.


That's why both men and women try to have babies with opposite sex members that have stronger reproductively successful traits than we do in general.

We would both (in general) have sex (and babies) with a gorgeous bilaterally symmetrical clear-skinned high IQ and fertile members of the opposite sex than ones that don't.

This is also why fashion and beauty products exist. To maximize our good traits and hide the bad, so we can secure the highest value mates as possible to mix our genes with.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



Deejo said:


> This isn't directed to anyone in particular, unless of course you think it is.


Stop picking on me!!


----------



## IIJokerII

marduk said:


> I agree with everything you're saying except the misconception.
> 
> That was my point, perhaps I didn't make it well.
> 
> 
> 
> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here was my decision tree when I was worried my current wife was going to cheat: .
> 
> 
> 
> What made you worry? What tipped you off to this feeling?
> 
> 
> 
> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Path A:
> continue to be a nervous, butthurt wreck and beg her to stop/stay, be worried about everything she did, and check in on her constantly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If your were worried she'd cheat invariably you must have unwittingly fulfilled one of these statements to some degree.
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=marduk;10095570] If she was on the fence of cheating:
> I realized that this would actually drive her away from me and towards somewhere else, so not a good strategy here.
Click to expand...

If she was on the fence she might have seen you inaction as an indication of indifference as not caring about her enough to not want her to have an affair, which might also be used against you as the rationalization kicks in. Usually when someone is on the fence them and them alone are weighing the options. Do not let the prospect of showing feelings be a dissuading factor since showing the consequential feelings evoked from her infidelity is the direct cause of pain you might have felt.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570] If she was going to cheat no matter what I did:
I was giving her a get out of jail free card by being controlling and insecure, and was not setting myself up well for re-entering the dating game. So not a good strategy here, either..[/QUOTE]

This is true to some degree but temptation is only filled by opportunity, if none exists then temptation can be suppressed. The biggest red flag of infidelity is the sudden secrecy of personal self and related media or materials. By being open an honest regardless and unable to hide anything you or your wife would not dare even try as it would be discovered immediately. Controlling is not letting your wife get a cell phone, involvement is asking to see whats behind the curtain.


QUOTE=marduk;10095570] If she wasn't going to cheat no matter what I did:
I was making both of us unhappy and driving a wedge between us. So not a good strategy here.[/QUOTE]

Sir, please read this statement over again, you are charging yourself for being the source of both of your unhappiness. Her cheating is what would have made you unhappy thus both unhappy as you expressed your feelings to her which she is responsible. She is, was, or whatever, the source, do not allow her to avoid the responsibility.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570] Path B:
Let her go if she was going to go. Become the best I could be, try to at least act more secure, but trust but verify. Spend more time doing my own thing. In short, become the guy I was when we met again.[/QUOTE]

Trust but verify is the no-no that WS relate to being controlling. You needing to verify anything is due to a lack of trust and being allowed to verify your wife's actions is soothing in itself, let alone not finding anything.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570]If she was on the fence of cheating:
This might wake her up and get her to chase me for a change. More flies with honey and all that. So a good strategy..[/QUOTE]

Sir, review. If she is on the fence due to an outside influence your kindness will be no doubt taken for granted and the cake eating will soon commence. Also, if she is on the fence she is not chasing you, she is leaving you and chasing another.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570] If she was going to cheat no matter what I did:
This would clear my head and put me in a good spot in a divorce and as I re-entered the dating game.[/QUOTE]

Maybe, but depending on her reaction to your passive behavior she just might, depending on who she is influenced, might take a ruthless charge toward you in the divorce proceedings. The dating game will also be very hard to reenter if you have no home, car, or money due to your stbxw divorce demands.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570] If she was never going to cheat no matter what I did:
This would put me in a far better place for me, and hence our marriage. Plus, she'd be a whole hell of a lot more attracted to me.[/QUOTE]

Then this wouldn't be an issue until it was an issue. But acting confident in a marriage where one spouse thinks the other would never cheat is was ironically leads to most affairs.

QUOTE=marduk;10095570]That was my logic.[/QUOTE]

And what was the outcome in the end? Her choice, one way or the other.


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> It does bother me that I have impure thoughts. I don't think I should. I should think only of him.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that the more attention and affection I get from him, the less attracted I feel to other men at all.
> 
> It is like when you are full, you just are not interested in eating anymore, no matter how good the food is. That is why I am always asking for attention and affection. I do not even want to be tempted.
> 
> And Dug is not perfect. He tells me that regularly.


It's obvious your needs are enormous. It must be exhausting to never feel satisfied. It's not normal to expect someone to safeguard you from yourself.

You've pretty much chosen a narrative to exclude yourself from your own faults. 

Even worse, you feel the need to spread your skewed philosophy onto others. Isn't your husband enough to carry the burden of your "impure thoughts" that you need to preach to choir that finds it off pitch.


----------



## Healer

Deejo said:


> JLD and her husband use a captain/first mate model in their marriage ... it's what they do and it works for them.
> 
> Don't know that they would label it as such. But as jld points out, it is most certainly not the more mainstream or conventional belief of the '50/50' marriage. Whether or not that model is effectively more 'traditional' remains to be seen in my opinion.
> 
> Nor do I believe the model you adhere to for marriage predisposes you to, or eliminates you from the cheating pool.
> 
> As I've said consistently in my tenure here, I'm all for what works. And they work. Bothers me when people take shots at a marriage that is functionally satisfying to both partners.
> 
> But we also know what works in some relationships, won't work in others.
> 
> I don't have an investment in changing jld's or dug's belief system; particularly given that they are happy.
> 
> They are pretty transparent in my opinion. Doesn't mean anyone is going to like what they see with that transparency.
> 
> There's a lot of 'right fighting' going on now, all it tends to do is escalate people's emotions.
> 
> I have no problems with calling someone out.
> 
> But it would be nice if we could acknowledge that 'ne'er are these 2 paths going to meet'.
> 
> No matter how many Louisville Sluggers you bring to the 'conversation', I don't believe that anyone is going to change their core belief system.
> 
> Nothing wrong with poking someone's belief system, but you don't need to walk up and shiv them from behind over it.
> 
> This isn't directed to anyone in particular, unless of course you think it is.


I don't see a lot of people ragging on them for their lifestyle choice - who cares really? Whatever works for them...people are taking issue with assertion that, once again, if a man cheats, he's a dog that wants variety, and if a woman cheats, it's because the man wasn't meeting her needs. And also that thing about not taking back a cheating man but taking back a cheating woman that Vellocet has quoted probably a dozen times.


----------



## loyallad

marduk said:


> That's why both men and women try to have babies with opposite sex members that have stronger reproductively successful traits than we do in general.
> 
> We would both (in general) have sex (and babies) with a gorgeous bilaterally symmetrical clear-skinned high IQ and fertile members of the opposite sex than ones that don't.
> 
> This is also why fashion and beauty products exist. To maximize our good traits and hide the bad, so we can secure the highest value mates as possible to mix our genes with.


Not to sure I agree with all that. I didn't pick my wife with what type of offspring we would produce. That never entered my mind. I thought she was a woman that shared a lot of my beliefs and values (note to every one; I was wrong, yes I made a mistake). Looking back I see how destructive she was with relationships prior to being with me (her breakup with one previous boyfriend was so bad he overdosed on alcohol). Not too sure after making a mess with those previous relationships she wasn't determined to latch on to the next guy who came along and not become an "old maid". Looking back I see she was not ready for marriage and probably the kind of person that should have never married. Too self-centered and definitely immature. 

We have two sons and an adopted daughter. If I was concerned about genetic traits she would not be the one I would have wanted. She is very short. Nothing wrong with that but that might effect how tall your kids will be (not really, our oldest son is 6'3", the youngest is sort of a mini me). Maybe I'm the exception to the rule I don't know. It's just genetics never entered into for me.


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> I don't see a lot of people ragging on them for their lifestyle choice - who cares really? Whatever works for them...people are taking issue with assertion that, once again, if a man cheats, he's a dog that wants variety, and if a woman cheats, it's because the man wasn't meeting her needs. And also that thing about not taking back a cheating man but taking back a cheating woman that Vellocet *has quoted probably a dozen times*.



*"I can hold that note all day buddy"*


----------



## Marduk

IIJokerII said:


> If she was on the fence she might have seen you inaction as an indication of indifference as not caring about her enough to not want her to have an affair, which might also be used against you as the rationalization kicks in. Usually when someone is on the fence them and them alone are weighing the options. Do not let the prospect of showing feelings be a dissuading factor since showing the consequential feelings evoked from her infidelity is the direct cause of pain you might have felt.


Struggling with the embedded quotes here, but I'll do the best I can.



> This is true to some degree but temptation is only filled by opportunity, if none exists then temptation can be suppressed. The biggest red flag of infidelity is the sudden secrecy of personal self and related media or materials. By being open an honest regardless and unable to hide anything you or your wife would not dare even try as it would be discovered immediately. Controlling is not letting your wife get a cell phone, involvement is asking to see whats behind the curtain.


There are different kinds of control, some overt, some more subtle. Demanding to see what's on her cell phone every day and reading her email every night is pretty controlling IMHO.

Checking in every once in a while to make sure she isn't guarding it and hasn't changed the passwords is another... One is ensuring transparency, the other is something else.

I'm not saying there aren't times for both; I'm saying being too overt about it drives a wedge in the relationship.



> Sir, please read this statement over again, you are charging yourself for being the source of both of your unhappiness. Her cheating is what would have made you unhappy thus both unhappy as you expressed your feelings to her which she is responsible. She is, was, or whatever, the source, do not allow her to avoid the responsibility.


But I _am_ charging myself for my own happiness. This is my point.

I'm interested in her happiness for two reasons: 

#1 I love her and want her to be happy
#2 her being happy with the marriage is in my enlightened self interest.

I can't control her happiness, but I can contribute to it.

I can control my happiness.


> Trust but verify is the no-no that WS relate to being controlling. You needing to verify anything is due to a lack of trust and being allowed to verify your wife's actions is soothing in itself, let alone not finding anything.


There's a difference between making sure you have access to everything and a reasonable awareness of what your spouse is doing than GPSing and VARing.


> Sir, review. If she is on the fence due to an outside influence your kindness will be no doubt taken for granted and the cake eating will soon commence. Also, if she is on the fence she is not chasing you, she is leaving you and chasing another.


Not what happened. Read my story if you like.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html


> Maybe, but depending on her reaction to your passive behavior she just might, depending on who she is influenced, might take a ruthless charge toward you in the divorce proceedings. The dating game will also be very hard to reenter if you have no home, car, or money due to your stbxw divorce demands.


I'm not following... your point as it exactly aligns with what I was saying.



> Then this wouldn't be an issue until it was an issue. But acting confident in a marriage where one spouse thinks the other would never cheat is was ironically leads to most affairs.


I have learned to be pretty confident, but to keep my head on a swivel.


> And what was the outcome in the end? Her choice, one way or the other.


Pretty good. 

I mean, far from perfect. But pretty good.

Lots of sex. No longer goes out all the time or away all the time. Still does, but tolerable. Lots and lots of attention, praise, support.

In short, a pretty good wife. Not without her problems, or insecurities, or insensitivities, but much better.

We're at least stable and relatively happy now. Alarm bells don't ring all the time.


----------



## Marduk

loyallad said:


> Not to sure I agree with all that. I didn't pick my wife with what type of offspring we would produce. That never entered my mind. I thought she was a woman that shared a lot of my beliefs and values (note to every one; I was wrong, yes I made a mistake). Looking back I see how destructive she was with relationships prior to being with me (her breakup with one previous boyfriend was so bad he overdosed on alcohol). Not too sure after making a mess with those previous relationships she wasn't determined to latch on to the next guy who came along and not become an "old maid". Looking back I see she was not ready for marriage and probably the kind of person that should have never married. Too self-centered and definitely immature.
> 
> We have two sons and an adopted daughter. If I was concerned about genetic traits she would not be the one I would have wanted. She is very short. Nothing wrong with that but that might effect how tall your kids will be (not really, our oldest son is 6'3", the youngest is sort of a mini me). Maybe I'm the exception to the rule I don't know. It's just genetics never entered into for me.


Oh, I'm not saying it is the be all and end all of mate selection. I'm saying that our body finds certain other bodies attractive and that attractiveness plays into mate selection.

It can be conscious or not.

Shortness in women can actually be an attractive trait. It was for me, anyway.

I would be surprised however if objectively you married far outside your realm, attractiveness-wise. It happens, but usually because of some overriding factor (social status, societal pressure, they have something inherent that fulfills a need, etc).

I could be wrong.


----------



## ThePheonix

Healer said:


> You completely contradict yourself within the same post.
> 
> "Cheating is 100% on the cheater", but "the BS did things to cause the cheating".
> 
> Lol.


That's the way it is throughout life. There are pressures that contribute to a persons misdeeds. If a spouse enters a revenge affair in response to their spouses affair, they are still 100% responsible for their own affair and the damage it does. But the other spouse cannot legitimately claim they had nothing to do with it. 
What I'm saying doesn't really seem that hard to comprehend. Those that get it, get it. Those that don't, don't.


----------



## cpacan

ThePheonix said:


> That's the way it is throughout life. There are pressures that contribute to a persons misdeeds. If a spouse enters a revenge affair in response to their spouses affair, they are still 100% responsible for their own affair and the damage it does. But the other spouse cannot legitimately claim they had nothing to do with it.
> *What I'm saying doesn't really seem that hard to comprehend. Those that get it, get it. Those that don't, don't.*


Indeed true, I rarely agree with you, but the bolded is spot on.


----------



## clipclop2

I do not believe that having all of your needs met will erase impure thoughts. I believe that you are less likely to give pure thoughts substantial time of your needs are being met. But then there are people who believe that a rich fantasy life that does not involve your spouse is healthy. I don't happen to be one of those people. What you give time in your mind to impacts you.


----------



## ThePheonix

marduk said:


> Oh, I'm not saying it is the be all and end all of mate selection. I'm saying that our body finds certain other bodies attractive and that attractiveness plays into mate selection.


Using the above as an example, what makes a "true blue" spouse so special is their willingness to forsake all others because they are committed to you. It's the fact that they place you so high, they will turn away from "other bodies" they find more attractive. (Believe me, there are plenty more attractive than any one person on this site.) Cheating, no matter how you explain it, will always make the betrayed spouse feel demoted from first place. And the truth is they, at that moment in time, have been demoted from first place.


----------



## ThePheonix

cpacan said:


> Indeed true, I rarely agree with you, but the bolded is spot on.


No matter how you cut it, who you blame, who thinks who caused it, or who was the first to screw up, its still the same train wreck.


----------



## cpacan

ThePheonix said:


> No matter how you cut it, who you blame, who thinks who caused it, or who was the first to screw up, its still the same train wreck.


Why is it a train wreck?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about your son jld, I pray for the best for you and your family. I wish you and Dug only good things and want you to know that. I enjoy healthy debate, but a sick child brings everything into perspective. I apologize for any insensitive remarks.


Thank you, Russell. Dug and I appreciate that. 

I was disappointed to see this thread filled with so many personal attacks and slander. I was hoping, as always, for a deep, thoughtful, introspective discussion.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I might as well give the good life a shot, and go down with a clear conscience.


:iagree:


----------



## ThePheonix

cpacan said:


> Why is it a train wreck?


When the read the stories, they seem like train wrecks to me.


----------



## cpacan

ThePheonix said:


> When the read the stories, they seem like train wrecks to me.


Yeah, but remember, there are a lot of hypersensitive and bitter people here, who can't see the bigger picture. It might not be as bad as it looks. After all; it's just for the fun of it, they'll see it eventually. I know I've learned a lot.


----------



## staystrong

cpacan said:


> Yeah, but remember, there are a lot of hypersensitive and bitter people here, *who can't see the bigger picture. It might not be as bad as it looks.* After all; it's just for the fun of it, they'll see it eventually. I know I've learned a lot.


What are you referencing?

Seems to me it is usually as bad as it looks. The stories here, I mean.


----------



## Marduk

ThePheonix said:


> Using the above as an example, what makes a "true blue" spouse so special is their willingness to forsake all others because they are committed to you. It's the fact that they place you so high, they will turn away from "other bodies" they find more attractive. (Believe me, there are plenty more attractive than any one person on this site.) Cheating, no matter how you explain it, will always make the betrayed spouse feel demoted from first place. And the truth is they, at that moment in time, have been demoted from first place.


Agreed.

However, I've also found tremendous power in uncovering what her body is attracted to, even if in the beginning it was body types different than mine.

Once I got over being butthurt about it, I adapted my workout/diet routine accordingly.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, I've also found tremendous power in uncovering what her body is attracted to, even if in the beginning it was body types different than mine.
> 
> Once I got over being butthurt about it, I adapted my workout/diet routine accordingly.


See, this just shows your maturity, Marduk. Your wife had a need, and you did not whine about how unfair it was. You just filled it. You solved your problem. That is what mature, intelligent, secure men do. 

And I would like to believe any man can get there, no matter where he starts from. It just takes some humility, a desire to solve problems rather than focusing on his hurt feelings.


----------



## cpacan

marduk said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, I've also found tremendous power in uncovering what her body is attracted to, even if in the beginning it was body types different than mine.
> 
> Once I got over being butthurt about it, I adapted my workout/diet routine accordingly.


Great job, there is way too much whining around here.


----------



## vellocet

cpacan said:


> Yeah, but remember, there are a lot of hypersensitive and bitter people here, who can't see the bigger picture. It might not be as bad as it looks. After all; it's just for the fun of it, they'll see it eventually. I know I've learned a lot.


Ok, being a "hypersensitive and bitter" ahole that I am, what am I not seeing and I will see it eventually?


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> And I would like to believe any man can get there, no matter where he starts from. It just takes some humility, a desire to solve problems rather than focusing on his hurt feelings.


I solved my problem. I divorced her. Now she is with someone who controls her every move. Worked out for me.


----------



## clipclop2

The butthurt?

So she was worth changing who you are? I dont get that. She cheated and you reward her? 
When she married you she accepted your as you were. She didn't leave. She didn't divorce you. She cheated on you. Your response? To change yourself for her purposes.

I really don't get that.

If her body type was different and she married your body type she made a trade off that should have been thought through and worth her while. Apparently not.

You dont get to cheat because you are too selfish to be honest.

And to reward her so you get sex, that's so beta it isn't funny. 

I cannot imagine what the next hoop you will have to jump through looks like when her need for excitement isn't met.

Being abused change your brain. Trust me, I know. I suspect you have fed the volcano but you can't satiate it.

JMO.


----------



## staystrong

butthurt. whining. hurt feelings.

You're using these terms to describe being cheated on?

Really, people? Really?


----------



## TimeHeals

marduk said:


> I adapted my workout/diet routine .



i doubt that approach is going to work when she brings home herpes or AIDS.


----------



## tacoma

jld said:


> Why women cheat vs Why men cheat
> 
> Why is it seemingly controversial to say that men and women cheat for different reasons?
> 
> It seems on TAM that we want to lump the sexes together in ways that do not really help us understand them. Understanding is key to solving problems. Why the resistance?
> 
> It does not justify cheating for either sex. Is that the bottom line concern, that somehow cheating for women will be justified?



Because men and women do indeed cheat for he same reasons.

It seems to me people spend more time segregating the sexes for reasons that are nothing more than cultural myths and stereotypes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loyallad

clipclop2 said:


> The butthurt?
> 
> So she was worth changing who you are? I dont get that. She cheated and you reward her?
> When she married you she accepted your as you were. She didn't leave. She didn't divorce you. She cheated on you. Your response? To change yourself for her purposes.
> 
> I really don't get that.
> 
> If her body type was different and she married your body type she made a trade off that should have been thought through and worth her while. Apparently not.
> 
> You dont get to cheat because you are too selfish to be honest.
> 
> And to reward her so you get sex, that's so beta it isn't funny.
> 
> I cannot imagine what the next hoop you will have to jump through looks like when her need for excitement isn't met.
> 
> Being abused change your brain. Trust me, I know. I suspect you have fed the volcano but you can't satiate it.
> 
> JMO.


Clip, I agree. And if she is so vain to throw that out there as a justification for an A what's next? Seems to me if you are a decent person and your spouse decides she no longer desires you due to her "body preference" she is the most shallow person in the world or there are more underlying issues and changing to fit her "body preference" probably is just the beginning of more things that need to change.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> I solved my problem. I divorced her. Now she is with someone who controls her every move. Worked out for me.


Sounds like it worked out for her, too.


----------



## OhGeesh

tacoma said:


> Because men and women do indeed cheat for he same reasons.It seems to me people spend more time segregating the sexes for reasons that are nothing more than cultural myths and stereotypes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Most definitely NOT!! Traditional affairs of feeling lonely, bored, needing some affirmation, well then sure, but MEN have a whole subset of affairs that women do not.

There is a 50 Billion dollar a year porn industry that rides on the back of men, over 4000 strip club that's 80 a state all because of men, escort site upon escort site where men find women to sleep with usually much YOUNGER for $$, sugar daddy sites, Craigslist sites, backpage sites, so while maybe some affairs are the same......the pay for sex, sleep with younger women, etc etc "game" is a man centric industry.

There are literally 100's of thousands of men who use professionals and that's just in the US, globally it's often legal, and even that more prevalent.

So, while TAM can try to equal it out and make it seem similar, it is far from similar. Men are much worse then women. Always have been always will be!!


----------



## staystrong

Yes, there's that subset. 

Women tend to be more discrete and selective. More trust and safety issues involved. There are plenty of married women on craig's list, cheater sites, cougar sites, and many who pursue men at trade shows, conferences, bars, GNOs, GF vacations, etc. 

Point is it has changed a lot in the past 30 years.


----------



## jld

Yes, I believe it has changed, but I agree with oh geesh that it is not equal. Not sure why folks keep trying to make it sound equal . . .


----------



## OhGeesh

staystrong said:


> Yes, there's that subset.
> 
> Women tend to be more discrete and selective. More trust and safety issues involved. There are plenty of married women on craig's list, cheater sites, cougar sites, and many who pursue men at trade shows, conferences, bars, GNOs, GF vacations, etc.
> 
> Point is it has changed a lot in the past 30 years.


I hear you 100% and agree, but the numbers aren't close. Look at the member numbers at such sites in comparison to the sites driven by men? Not too mention the $$$ and what each group contributes to each subset.

I do agree, don't let my post belittle the increased cheating by women....I just don't believe the numbers are close.

I can't think of any women I know that serial cheat. While I know many guys that see escorts and go to strip clubs on every business trip or practically every trip with no end in site.

Also you don't see many women 60 off trying to bang 20, 30, 40 year olds while there are over 2 million male members on 2 of the most predominant sugar daddy sites. 

Men are still cheating a ton more imo.


----------



## staystrong

OhGeesh said:


> I hear you 100% and agree, but the numbers aren't close. Look at the member numbers at such sites in comparison to the sites driven by men? Not too mention the $$$ and what each group contributes to each subset.
> 
> I do agree, don't let my post belittle the increased cheating by women....I just don't believe the numbers are close.
> 
> I can't think of any women I know that serial cheat. While I know many guys that see escorts and go to strip clubs on every business trip or practically every trip with no end in site.
> 
> Also you don't see many women 60 off trying to bang 20, 30, 40 year olds while there are over 2 million male members on 2 of the most predominant sugar daddy sites.
> 
> Men are still cheating a ton more imo.


What's a "ton more"? You'd have to quantify.

I had my phase of looking at the research and it was clear to me that men are NOT cheating a ton more.

You're providing gender-specific anecdotes. I could do the same.
How many men have been seduced by their female yoga instructor or personal trainer?


----------



## OhGeesh

Unless you mean Alexis Wright in Maine I'd say hardly ever lol. She slept with what 174 different paying men over 2 years as a Zumba instructor 

We will just disagree! FBI says there are 1-2 million prostitutes in the US that's old data. If each just slept with 20 different people that's 17-34% of the male population over 18 right there! Now of course there are single men in that number too, but most prostitutes said they sleep with "married men". 

They have brothel escorts who have had over 1000 different clients some claiming many more over a 15 year career.

That doesn't count sugar baby sites which have over 500K members....I'm sure many escorts/prostitutes by trade anyway.

The money, sheer size, and number of websites dedicated to the male sexual appetite is over 10,000% larger than that for females.

In some countries like Cambodia 82% of the men have paid for sex!! In Italy seeing a prostitute was part of becoming a man up until 20 years ago with numbers in the 90's now it's closer to 50%.

To me saying MEN don't cheat a ton more? Is like saying PROVE humans have had any impact on the planet in terms of pollution and global warming! While it's obvious "we" have damaged the planet and dump trillions of tons of pollutants in the air and sea? Some still say PROVE we damage the earth? Prove this climate change wouldn't have happened anyway? Of course you can't because the model can't be tested we don't have another earth to test the theory on even though the answer is obvious.

In the end as long as we are faithful "StayStrong" that's all that matters  have a great weekend!


----------



## jld

Hear, hear, Oh Geesh. Standing ovation, forty pages in.


----------



## staystrong

OhGeesh said:


> Unless you mean Alexis Wright in Maine I'd say hardly ever lol. She slept with what 174 different paying men over 2 years as a Zumba instructor
> 
> We will just disagree! FBI says there are 1-2 million prostitutes in the US that's old data. If each just slept with 20 different people that's 17-34% of the male population over 18 right there! Now of course there are single men in that number too, but most prostitutes said they sleep with "married men".
> 
> They have brothel escorts who have had over 1000 different clients some claiming many more over a 15 year career.
> 
> That doesn't count sugar baby sites which have over 500K members....I'm sure many escorts/prostitutes by trade anyway.
> 
> The money, sheer size, and number of websites dedicated to the male sexual appetite is over 10,000% larger than that for females.
> 
> In some countries like Cambodia 82% of the men have paid for sex!! In Italy seeing a prostitute was part of becoming a man up until 20 years ago with numbers in the 90's now it's closer to 50%.
> 
> To me saying MEN don't cheat a ton more? Is like saying PROVE humans have had any impact on the planet in terms of pollution and global warming! While it's obvious "we" have damaged the planet and dump trillions of tons of pollutants in the air and sea? Some still say PROVE we damage the earth? Prove this climate change wouldn't have happened anyway? Of course you can't because the model can't be tested we don't have another earth to test the theory on even though the answer is obvious.
> 
> In the end as long as we are faithful "StayStrong" that's all that matters  have a great weekend!


Okay, if you bring in the rest of the world, I'll bow to your argument. I'm talking about the USA, Canada, etc. 

You made a very compelling post referencing the sex industry. 

I would not argue that men who cheat typically have more AP's than women who cheat. One married man could see many hookers, escorts, etc over his life time. Keep in mind that those escorts have repeat customers. 

Going by the survey research, there is not a lot of difference between the sexes. Your compelling post has to weighed against the data.


----------



## cpacan

So, what's the point besides proving that men are pigs and women saints? It doesn't do any good for me in healing from betrayal.


----------



## jld

cpacan said:


> So, what's the point besides proving that men are pigs and women saints? It doesn't do any good for me in healing from betrayal.


What are you doing to heal? 

I am not familiar with your story. Feel free to link it.


----------



## cpacan

Do you always answer with a question?


----------



## jld

cpacan said:


> Do you always answer with a question?


It shows interest in your thought process. It is an effort to understand you better.

Okay, sorry. Just saw your link in your sig.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



cpacan said:


> Do you always answer with a question?


In a word: yes.


----------



## cpacan

My thought process was: I feel bad enough about being betrayed and having my emotional well being crushed, and now I'm supposed to feel bad about being male as well?
Hence my question, what's the point?


----------



## jld

cpacan said:


> My thought process was: I feel bad enough about being betrayed and having my emotional well being crushed, and now I'm supposed to feel bad about being male as well?
> Hence my question, what's the point?


The point of showing that women usually cheat for unmet needs was to give men a lot of hope, if they want to keep their marriages. They have a lot more chance of success than BWs, I think.


----------



## Pluto2

Your intent and your results are not consistent.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Your intent and your results are not consistent.


Sometimes we just plant seeds here, Pluto. We all read and think about what is said. The results are not always instant.


----------



## staystrong

jld, do you have suggestions on how a WW can help a BH deal with the trauma of infidelity?


----------



## Marduk

Pluto2 said:


> Your intent and your results are not consistent.


This is the struggle of life, no?


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> jld, do you have suggestions on how a WW can help a BH deal with the trauma of infidelity?


Be as open and honest as you can be, no matter what reaction you think he will have (okay, obviously, if you think he will become violent you better skip that and either tell him with others present or just head straight to divorce). Transparency, for the rest of your life. There should have always been transparency, actually. 

This all assumes you want to stay with him. Depending on your reasons for cheating, and his reaction, you may want to do both of you a favor and just divorce.

If you want to stay, besides being transparent, you simply have to accept there will be no more cheating. It is not fair to him, and it will weigh heavy on your conscience someday. That is the main reason not to cheat: you will never have a clear conscience again. You will always carry that weight, and know that you hurt other people as well as yourself.

To avoid cheating, you need to love yourself. You need to care about yourself and believe you have worth. You do not have to accept crumbs from the OM. You can be loved in a true way, even if it requires a divorce to eventually get there. And a divorce might be the kindest thing for your BH, who also deserves to be loved and appreciated by someone who can meet his needs.

Really, WW, look at your situation realistically. Can your BH meet your needs? Was his inability or refusal the reason you cheated in the first place? Or are you just selfish?

Please do not stay for his money. Please stay because you really love him and want to be good to him. That is what you would want if you were in his shoes, right?

If you cannot meet his needs, if what you can give is not enough for him, please release him. And vice versa. It will be best in the long run for both of you. You both deserve to feel happy and whole.


----------



## staystrong

It's well written, and I understand that you are aiming at the WW's internal thought process, but I was asking about how a WW could help a BH deal with the trauma.

The idea of being remorseful and understanding of his triggers, that what she did was not justified, etc.

I would say the main reason for her to not cheat again is not to have a clear conscience, but to not hurt someone again. To not injure someone. That's empathy, not self-reference to one's own conscience.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Sometimes we just plant seeds here, Pluto. We all read and think about what is said. The results are not always instant.


Do you understand you are being condescending?


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Sounds like it worked out for her, too.


You really are something else.


----------



## Healer

OhGeesh said:


> Most definitely NOT!! Traditional affairs of feeling lonely, bored, needing some affirmation, well then sure, but MEN have a whole subset of affairs that women do not.
> 
> There is a 50 Billion dollar a year porn industry that rides on the back of men, over 4000 strip club that's 80 a state all because of men, escort site upon escort site where men find women to sleep with usually much YOUNGER for $$, sugar daddy sites, Craigslist sites, backpage sites, so while maybe some affairs are the same......the pay for sex, sleep with younger women, etc etc "game" is a man centric industry.
> 
> There are literally 100's of thousands of men who use professionals and that's just in the US, globally it's often legal, and even that more prevalent.
> 
> So, while TAM can try to equal it out and make it seem similar, it is far from similar. Men are much worse then women. Always have been always will be!!


Lol.


----------



## Marduk

OhGeesh said:


> Most definitely NOT!! Traditional affairs of feeling lonely, bored, needing some affirmation, well then sure, but MEN have a whole subset of affairs that women do not.
> 
> There is a 50 Billion dollar a year porn industry that rides on the back of men, over 4000 strip club that's 80 a state all because of men, escort site upon escort site where men find women to sleep with usually much YOUNGER for $$, sugar daddy sites, Craigslist sites, backpage sites, so while maybe some affairs are the same......the pay for sex, sleep with younger women, etc etc "game" is a man centric industry.
> 
> There are literally 100's of thousands of men who use professionals and that's just in the US, globally it's often legal, and even that more prevalent.
> 
> So, while TAM can try to equal it out and make it seem similar, it is far from similar. Men are much worse then women. Always have been always will be!!


Men are worse?

You mean men and women have different reproductive strategies. And they actually go somewhat into role reversal as the two sexes age.

In their 20's, a reasonably attractive woman doesn't really have to pursue sex. It finds her. All she has to do in general is say yes or no to it.

Men in their 20's generally have to work at it unless you're the top of the heap, attraction wise. 

Those that don't get it or aren't willing to put in the effort, but have the resources just to pay for it or a facsimile like prostitution or strippers, may just do so.

Now, what I'm finding in my 40's is the role is reversing quite a bit. I get hit on more by women, especially women my own age. And you hear and see more and more about women in their 40's going out hunting younger men. It's not news.

So I don't understand the vitriol. Men are not worse than women, men are slightly different then women.

And we in general both have reasonably successful reproductive strategies.

If we didn't, we wouldn't be here to debate it.


----------



## loyallad

jld said:


> Be as open and honest as you can be, no matter what reaction you think he will have (okay, obviously, if you think he will become violent you better skip that and either tell him with others present or just head straight to divorce). Transparency, for the rest of your life. There should have always been transparency, actually.
> 
> This all assumes you want to stay with him. Depending on your reasons for cheating, and his reaction, you may want to do both of you a favor and just divorce.
> 
> If you want to stay, besides being transparent, you simply have to accept there will be no more cheating. It is not fair to him, and it will weigh heavy on your conscience someday. That is the main reason not to cheat: you will never have a clear conscience again. You will always carry that weight, and know that you hurt other people as well as yourself.
> 
> To avoid cheating, you need to love yourself. You need to care about yourself and believe you have worth. You do not have to accept crumbs from the OM. You can be loved in a true way, even if it requires a divorce to eventually get there. And a divorce might be the kindest thing for your BH, who also deserves to be loved and appreciated by someone who can meet his needs.
> 
> Really, WW, look at your situation realistically. Can your BH meet your needs? Was his inability or refusal the reason you cheated in the first place? Or are you just selfish?
> 
> Please do not stay for his money. Please stay because you really love him and want to be good to him. That is what you would want if you were in his shoes, right?
> 
> If you cannot meet his needs, if what you can give is not enough for him, please release him. And vice versa. It will be best in the long run for both of you. You both deserve to feel happy and whole.


Okay jld I'll say this. I'll go along with a lot of what you said in this post. I think a lot of this is more along the lines of what to do to avoid future cheating by WW. It certainly is helpful but I don't think it goes to the heart of staystrong's question on how WW can help BH deal with the trauma of WW's cheating. I don't know any of us know a sure fire correct response to his question. I think it all varies depending on the person and their relationship. Some may need a whole lot of contrition on WW part, other maybe not so much. Also how much work is being done by WW to repair the marriage and how much participation goes on in MC.

The thing I'll disagree with you on is the "emotional needs" being "unmet" and the reasons WW cheat. You seem to take this as an absolute. That the vast majority of WW have this unmet emotional needs and this is the reasons they have an A. There are some that may actually have emotional needs being unmet (still not right to use this to have an A). Other WWs will rewrite history once they are caught cheating in order to "blame shift". A man cheats and he's a dog and I think some men don't care what they are called. Sad commentary on their part but it is what it is. A woman cheats and she's a ....(plug in whatever derogatory word you want). I don't know too many women that can accept being called (again pick the word). I think then "blame shifting" kicks in. There are also WW that have unmet emotional needs but also are not meeting the BH needs as well even before the A. Maybe the BH in waiting accepts that he married her for better or worse and tries to live by this. He may wish his W do something different, better, not at all or whatever but he doesn't see the unmet need as a signal to have an A.

To say a BH needs to give the benefit of the doubt to a WW because of unmet emotional needs if R is tried but then a WH not given the same treatment simple because he's a man is a double standard. Also you tend to make the unmet emotional needs thing the focal point of the discussion. That makes the BH appear to be in the wrong and promotes the blame shifting. That is what has caused a lot of the discord between you and some of the others (myself included) on this thread.


----------



## Ripper

Older article that has probably already been posted some where.

Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online

The problem with all this "why men vs women cheat" or "who cheats more" is that the only actual information we get is provided by the cheaters themselves. They aren't exactly a reliable source given that they are accomplished deceivers and blame-shifters.

Everything else comes from "expert" counselors and PHDs who base their theories off the same unreliable information source.

We will never know the actual truth. Each will have to make up their own mind on the matter.


----------



## clipclop2

Regretfully some men spend a lot of time in denial. They would be better served to open up their eyes and help other men clean up their act then to deny the truth. I know it reflects poorly on them and they can't stand it for some reason or another but denying it doesn't make it easier to respect them. In fact it seems like by denying it they do more to cover up for other men's bad behavior than they do to prevent it.


----------



## Marduk

clipclop2 said:


> Regretfully some men spend a lot of time in denial. They would be better served to open up their eyes and help other men clean up their act then to deny the truth. I know it reflects poorly on them and they can't stand it for some reason or another but denying it doesn't make it easier to respect them. In fact it seems like by denying it they do more to cover up for other men's bad behavior than they do to prevent it.


And women don't spend a lot of time in denial?


----------



## Ripper

clipclop2 said:


> They would be better served to open up their eyes and help other men clean up their act then to deny the truth.


What is the truth?


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> It's well written, and I understand that you are aiming at the WW's internal thought process, but I was asking about how a WW could help a BH deal with the trauma.
> 
> The idea of being remorseful and understanding of his triggers, that what she did was not justified, etc.
> 
> I would say the main reason for her to not cheat again is not to have a clear conscience, but to not hurt someone again. To not injure someone. That's empathy, not self-reference to one's own conscience.


I don't think she can help him, SS, at least not at first. Maybe when she is stronger, but she will be too fragile at the beginning. 

You understand that cheating is weakness, right? Not strength. If there were strength, there would not have been any cheating.

I think it is really unwise to ask your WW to heal you emotionally. I think you will be disappointed. Very risky move, I would say. The more you can do for yourself, the better.

You should definitely hold her feet to the fire. Do not agree with her if she tries to say it is your fault. She made the decision to cheat. Point out the alternatives. You want her to own her action, 100%.

But privately you better be pretty damn honest with yourself about your role in what she did. If you really put all this on her, and feel you have no way of influencing her to not do it again, please divorce. She needs a strong person to help her get on a healthier path. If you cannot be that, release her, and yourself, from the marriage. You both need different spouses.


----------



## Maricha75

JLD, you start out pretty well, but you just can't help yourself, can you? You just can't help suggesting that HE is in any way responsible for for HER choice to cheat!

Here, let me make this simple so you MIGHT begin to comprehend. If my husband no longer had sex with me, I have choices to make on how I handle it. I can stick with status quo. I can leave him. I can cheat. Each of those are very unpalatable choices, but there they are. No matter WHAT is chosen, it is MY decision, not his. He plays no part in the decision making. That is solely on me. He wouldn't drive me to cheat, if that were the choice made. He has no control over my brain. I have that. Do you comprehend this, yet? You cannot pin ANY part of a choice made to cheat on the spouse who is betrayed. That is the cheater's choice. Period. Stop trying to imply that the loyal spouse drove the cheater to cheat!


----------



## staystrong

Maricha75 said:


> JLD, you start out pretty well, but you just can't help yourself, can you? You just can't help suggesting that HE is in any way responsible for for HER choice to cheat!
> 
> Here, let me make this simple so you MIGHT begin to comprehend. If my husband no longer had sex with me, I have choices to make on how I handle it. I can stick with status quo. I can leave him. I can cheat. Each of those are very unpalatable choices, but there they are. No matter WHAT is chosen, it is MY decision, not his. He plays no part in the decision making. That is solely on me. He wouldn't drive me to cheat, if that were the choice made. He has no control over my brain. I have that. Do you comprehend this, yet? You cannot pin ANY part of a choice made to cheat on the spouse who is betrayed. That is the cheater's choice. Period. Stop trying to imply that the loyal spouse drove the cheater to cheat!


She's making some progress.

I think we have to be realistic in what a wayward thinks, wrong or right, based upon how they feel. Neglect may be something that causes them to be unhappy, or less happy than they could be. Resentment breeds. Perhaps they don't address this or make feeble attempts and feel shut down. Some people are not mature and can't open up to their partners, and then blame the partners for not making them feel safe enough when in fact it is their own lack of courage to confront which causes the problem. We're all guilty of that to some degree - our expectations, assumptions, minimizations, avoidances, etc.

If there is clear neglect or abuse, a BS should examine their role. In the run of the mill affair, there's probably not that much for a BS to consider. They weren't jealous enough while being deceived? Not enough date nights? Not smart, funny, supportive or competent enough in bed? Rarely is this the case. It's more the case they are comparing the BS to the AP and it's not a fair comparison. 

And I think she's wrong about a wayward not being responsible for healing their spouse. In some ways, they are the only ones that can. 

I don't think she really understands because she's never been in the situation.


----------



## jld

If the wayward wife is a domme, I think she could heal him. He would have to trust her a lot.

I know I could not do it. And just the prospect would turn me off completely.

I was not made to be with a man who would need that. Those guys are surely nice guys, good to be friends with, but would not be the sort of men I would be attracted to.

Dug is just not needy.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> If the wayward wife is a domme, I think she could heal him. He would have to trust her a lot.
> 
> I know I could not do it. And just the prospect would turn me off completely.
> 
> I was not made to be with a man who would need that. Those guys are surely nice guys, good to be friends with, but would not be the sort of men I would be attracted to.
> 
> Dug is just not needy.


I suppose a "Nice guy" as you call it who is not putting up a façade or act but is in fact true about his character vs someone who appears to be the dominant male because his wife allows him to be? Wait a sec, didn't you say " I Allow him to be the dominant one". Why yes you did, "You allowed to be the dominant one" easily translates into " Yes my husband wears the pants because I let him".

So in essence you husbands behavior is due to your actions so you, thru no fault or influence of your own apparently, perceive that the other spouse can be made to act a certain way via their partners behavior good or bad? I am quite curious as to what would happen if the dominance "Allowance" Valve was suddenly shut off. 

I am quite sure if you challenged your husband like most wives do he'd either change or not to suit your needs. If he did change you'd claim he was a "Nice guy" and then either cheat or leave or both since he was now unattractive. And if this allowed dominance you say you give him is not relinquished to the level of your PERCEIVED equality I am sure the inevitable statement would ensue;

"He's too controlling"
"He never values what I say"
"He neglects me"
"I feel like my feelings are ignored and I am alone"

Need I go on.

What it appears like is that you have a nice guy on your hands who is wearing the costume of the dominant husband variety and you are his tailor. I hope for both your sakes you never decide to unveil his true identify one way or another.


----------



## staystrong

I think your views of sex in marriage are too polar and inconsistent to be useful to many people. 

'Healing' is not an effeminate word. It's a process by which the OW proves herself to be worthy of a wife again. Maintaining no contact, being transparent, feeling safe to open up sexually and emotionally to her husband again, reassuring him that he is the man in her life. Because in his mind, he is not so sure, and he is not sure he can be with this woman anymore. Or he may be afraid to lose her, even though the wife as he knew her is already dead to him. And he knows that, and is in doubt about loving someone who could do this, but also afraid to lose that part of him and his life. He wants her to heal, to be more like the woman he knew. If she's not afraid of losing him, he may turn needy and it will end poorly. If she is afraid of losing him, she will probably need to reassure him on occasion. Beyond the fear, there needs to be trust. Wanting trust is not 'needy', it's to deal with the triggers and insecurities which flare up during reconciliation. 

Perhaps you and Dug are very mature and independent. I felt the same way before D-Day. Turns out I felt very lost without her and the family, as I think many people would feel. A man's wife and family is his pride, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## jld

_He_ said that I allow it. He does not take it for granted. 

I am not without power in the relationship. He wants to keep me. He likes me, joker. 

The way I see it, if I were not happy, I could leave. That is the alternative if I do not like life with him.

But I have a very good life with him, and I do not want to lose it. 

He steadies me. I don't get everything I want, and I am always asking for more attention from him. Sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't. 

But I can count on him. He is not needy and whiny. He has tremendous self-control. He is able to do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do, even when it requires sacrifice.

He works hard and I respect that. I would not want to be with a lazy man.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I think your views of sex in marriage are too polar and inconsistent to be useful to many people.
> 
> 'Healing' is not an effeminate word. It's a process by which the OW proves herself to be worthy of a wife again. Maintaining no contact, being transparent, feeling safe to open up sexually and emotionally to her husband again, reassuring him that he is the man in her life. Because in his mind, he is not so sure, and he is not sure he can be with this woman anymore. Or he may be afraid to lose her, even though the wife as he knew her is already dead to him. And he knows that, and is in doubt about loving someone who could do this, but also afraid to lose that part of him and his life. He wants her to heal, to be more like the woman he knew. If she's not afraid of losing him, he may turn needy and it will end poorly. If she is afraid of losing him, she will probably need to reassure him on occasion. Beyond the fear, there needs to be trust. Wanting trust is not 'needy', it's to deal with the triggers and insecurities which flare up during reconciliation.
> 
> Perhaps you and Dug are very mature and independent. I felt the same way before D-Day. Turns out I felt very lost without her and the family, as I think many people would feel. A man's wife and family is his pride, as far as I'm concerned.


I cannot remember a time when I had to reassure Dug. If anything, I challenge him regularly. 

I do not hide anything from him. I assume he can handle everything. I can't just pretend he is my dominant; he has to really be that for me to give him that place in my life.

You are right that I do not understand the guys here who want so much reassurance from their wives. That has not been my experience with Dug. 

He started the relationship with me, he told me his expectations, he carries me when I am weak. If he were weak, too, our marriage would not work. I need someone to lean on, and he is happy to be leaned on.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> You are right that I do not understand the guys here who want so much reassurance from their *unfaithful* wives. That has not been my experience with Dug.


Just thought I'd add that qualifier.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I cannot remember a time when I had to reassure Dug. If anything, I challenge him regularly.
> 
> I do not hide anything from him. I assume he can handle everything. I can't just pretend he is my dominant; he has to really be that for me to give him that place in my life.
> 
> You are right that I do not understand the guys here who want so much reassurance from their wives. That has not been my experience with Dug.
> 
> He started the relationship with me, he told me his expectations, he carries me when I am weak. If he were weak, too, our marriage would not work. I need someone to lean on, and he is happy to be leaned on.


You sit on his lap, and whisper in his ear... 'duggy.. i wuv you but i'm having impure thoughts right now and i want to boink another guy.. but i'm so weak and you're so strong, please help me find my way to purity'. .. and he walks into his phone booth, and comes out with his tights on.. and flies you around the city.. and you say 'my hero'. 

The end.


----------



## jld

But you really cannot trust her, or not right away, right? She has already shown you that. So why look for it?

You have to decide what you want, and what you can handle. With time, I think she can earn back at least some of your trust, if she puts her mind to it. For sure she has to stop cheating, and be transparent the rest of her life.

I think you, and many men, expect their wives to be equal partners, a 50/50 relationship. I don't think my husband expects that. His expectations of me are custom-made based on what he thinks I am capable of, and what he desires from a relationship. 

He never expected me to work after we had children. He told me in the early months of our relationship that we would buy a house on one income. So when I was working, before children, we just put my salary into savings. That money became the down payment for a house.


----------



## russell28

I said 'the end', that means it's over. 

You guys live happily ever after. That's all folks.

No need to keep repeating and regurgitating the same stuff.. we get it. Men bad, women good... men strong, women weak. Strong women bad, weak man bad... Strong man good.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> You sit on his lap, and whisper in his ear... 'duggy.. i wuv you but i'm having impure thoughts right now and i want to boink another guy.. but i'm so weak and you're so strong, please help me find my way to purity'. .. and he walks into his phone booth, and comes out with his tights on.. and flies you around the city.. and you say 'my hero'.
> 
> The end.


Why so sarcastic?

I tell him all kinds of things. All my dreams and fears and struggles. I feel like he cares about me. 

But yes, I do have a bit of a hero worship thing going on. And he tells me regularly that he is not perfect, and that I need to see reality. 

I am always stunned when he makes a mistake or does not know something. The kids are, too. We all have a pretty high opinion of him.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I said 'the end', that means it's over.
> 
> You guys live happily ever after. That's all folks.
> 
> No need to keep repeating and regurgitating the same stuff.. we get it. Men bad, women good... men strong, women weak. Strong women bad, weak man bad... Strong man good.


Why so defensive?

Nothing wrong with strong women. And weak men can become strong. But not if they do not face their weaknesses.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Why so sarcastic?
> 
> I tell him all kinds of things. All my dreams and fears and struggles. I feel like he cares about me.
> 
> But yes, I do have a bit of a hero worship thing going on. And he tells me regularly that he is not perfect, and that I need to see reality.
> 
> I am always stunned when he makes a mistake or does not know something. The kids are, too. We all have a pretty high opinion of him.


He's amazing and so strong, I want to hear more about him and you and how you sit on his lap and whisper your impure thoughts into his ear. Please.. go on... 50 pages of it isn't nearly enough...


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Why so defensive?
> 
> Nothing wrong with strong women. And weak men can become strong. But not if they do not face their weaknesses.


I'm defensive because I'm strong like bull. You asking me is also a sign of strength, be careful, you may want to work on becoming weaker or you may overtake dug as the strong one throwing off the delicate power balance in your finely tuned relationship.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> He's amazing and so strong, I want to hear more about him and you and how you sit on his lap and whisper your impure thoughts into his ear. Please.. go on... 50 pages of it isn't nearly enough...


You are getting emotional, Russell. I think you are feeling insecure.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



jld said:


> Why so sarcastic?
> 
> I tell him all kinds of things. All my dreams and fears and struggles. I feel like he cares about me.
> 
> But yes, I do have a bit of a hero worship thing going on. * And he tells me regularly that he is not perfect, and that I need to see reality.
> 
> I am always stunned when he makes a mistake or does not know something. The kids are, too. We all have a pretty high opinion of him.*


Very unhealthy, JLD. He is human, just like you, like me, like the rest of us. Everybody makes mistakes, and nobody knows everything. It's understandable when young children are stunned when daddy doesn't know everything or can't do everything. But a grown woman should know better. MUCH better!


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> You are getting emotional, Russell. I think you are feeling insecure.


Oh no, I must be weak.. is it possible that a strong man can have emotions? Can you help me jld, or are you too weak.. perhaps I need to sit on dugs lap... I actually had some impure thoughts right then...


*I have a hard time taking you seriously jld, that's why the sarcasm... I question your sincerity because at times your posts are so over the top they wreak of flame bait to me.

I see many of your posts as "Dugs gonna see this and think it's awesome that I'm tooting his horn and saying how wonderful he is and how pure I am.. I hope he reads it soon"

*


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I'm defensive because I'm strong like bull. You asking me is also a sign of strength, be careful, you may want to work on becoming weaker or you may overtake dug as the strong one throwing off the delicate power balance in your finely tuned relationship.


You sound angry. Anger is not strength. Anger masks hurt or fear.

Why would I fear getting stronger? I definitely have gotten stronger since joining TAM. I have been exposed to a lot more, and have had my ideas challenged. That promotes growth.

The stronger we are, the more resilient we are. And that is a good thing.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Oh no, I must be weak.. is it possible that a strong man can have emotions? Can you help me jld, or are you too weak.. perhaps I need to sit on dugs lap... I actually had some impure thoughts right then...


You are just being funny.

We all have our weaknesses. Dug has them, too. He procrastinates. It is not helpful to him, but he does it anyway.


----------



## staystrong

Well, I'm bowing out of this thread. 

jld, it's been interesting but I honestly don't think you should be posting advice in the CWI section. Support and open ended questions, but not comments and advice. I don't think you can apply your lessons from a stable marriage to a crisis situation. Your ideas seem to be derivative from a certainly philosophy of the dominant/submissive in marriage, and not applicable to all relationships. I see the benefit to your ideas and I think people can create passionate and rock-steady marriages from them. 

During my wife's A, she became more domme and I combatted that instinctually. She was trying to dominate me while letting another man dominate her. While at first the passion went up, she started cooling and freezing, becoming mechanical in bed. It made me less attracted to her, less sexually playful. So I tried being more affectionate, which I normally am, but things were not in sync. Should I have known? Only if I had been burned before. 

Perhaps you don't understand the feeling of being able to cradle the face of the woman you love in your hand and kiss her, only to find out later that the same face may have been swallowing another man's manhood. That the times you were reading storybooks together with your children, she was waiting for a text from OM. Or to have you your arm around her like you always had (she was "mine" and I was "hers"), and someone else was doing the same. Infidelity is a deeply insidious and awful experience and it breaks up otherwise healthy marriages, families and sometimes careers. These are not things to be taken lightly. These are soul-crushing experiences for those of us who have souls. Why she ultimately gave herself to someone else and gambled away a loving husband who worked hard and did right, I don't know. It wasn't her first time and it may not be her last. Some people don't reform. The point is she and her POSOM robbed me of many things, but I did want to 'save' my marriage. In hindsight, maybe there were too many dealbreakers and she was too complicated to try with. I understand the mistakes posters here on TAM can make post D-Day. That's why I post here. Support for the BS and to keep them from falling into self-doubt, rugsweeping, limbo, etc. It was a trial by fire and some come out winners, some come out losers. But we all come out more wiser from the experience. There are a lot of people hurting on this board, it's sometimes hard to see through the banter and the quips and the bitterness. I appreciate all thoughtful voices here, so thanks for the exchange.


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## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Very unhealthy, JLD. He is human, just like you, like me, like the rest of us. Everybody makes mistakes, and nobody knows everything. It's understandable when young children are stunned when daddy doesn't know everything or can't do everything. But a grown woman should know better. MUCH better!


Well, Dug is a much better man than my father was, and is respected by many people. I think that is why he has made such an impression on me. And to be sure, I am pretty trusting.


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## russell28

jld said:


> You are just being funny.
> 
> We all have our weaknesses. Dug has them, too. He procrastinates. It is not helpful to him, but he does it anyway.


Dug procrastinates.. what a monster. Strong men never procrastinate, they see something that needs to be done, and they just do it! You should help him fix that before it pushes you to cheat.


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## Maricha75

*Re: Re: Why men cheat v. Why women cheat*



jld said:


> Well, Dug is a much better man than my father was, and is respected by many people. I think that is why he has made such an impression on me. And to be sure, I am pretty trusting.


And those are good qualities, and it's great that he made such an impression. But he is still human. He is still fallible.


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