# Should a couple be able to ask each other anything, or are there some questions that just the asking warrants hostility and divorce?



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is a spin off of another thread where several posters are doing a lot of posturing and chest thumping and saber rattling saying that if their partner asked them the question that was asked in the thread, that there would be hell to pay and that they would lose all love and esteem for their partner and likely end the relationship. 

Now I get that the topic of that thread is controversial and most people would not choose to partake in that activity. 

But I'm looking at this from a bigger perspective - Are we better off as a species if we lash out and dump our mates for asking a question of a topic we find discomforting or distasteful?

Or are we better off if we can create a safe enough environment that our partners can ask us a question and not fear reprisal or getting dragged through divorce just for asking the question? 

Now I need to make clear this not about pressuring or harassing or manipulating someone into doing something they do not want to do. 

I'm talking about are we better if we create an environment of harsh, uncompromising line in the sand to where just the posing of a question or the mention of a topic is met with open hostility and threat of divorce and loss of all love and esteem. 

Or an environment of open dialogue and exchange of ideas and the posing of questions without the threat of hostility and rejection even if the answer to the question is no? 

Where do you want to be when Jesus/Muhammad/Bhudda comes back?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would hope that if someone was going to ask inappropriate questions that I would consider red flags for whatever reason, that I found that out while dating and dumped them and didn't ever get married to them. But if they hid that and managed to get married before they revealed that particular insecurity or picadillo or whatever it might be, I would not answer it or discuss it. And if it was a big enough deal, I would consider the omission of not knowing that before marrying a big lie.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I think you should be free to ask anything in a relationship. Some questions are the biggest tells of a person’s true nature. So I say bring it on!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Everything is open for discussion. The reaction and future action due to said discussion if one doesn’t like what they hear is another thing all together.

I apologize to drag it up front but the swinging thing is open just like anything else. I would give my wife a firm “I’m not interested.” I think we have an understanding at this point in marriage that anything is open for conversation.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

*This is a spin off of another thread where several posters are doing a lot of posturing and chest thumping and saber rattling saying that if their partner asked them the question that was asked in the thread, that there would be hell to pay and that they would lose all love and esteem for their partner and likely end the relationship. *

Gave me a thought!

Want to get rid of your spouse? Figure out the right questions to ring their bell! Makes it easy!

2nd thought - people who make such statements are mentally deficient in personal relations skills. hmmm?
maybe go back to first thought

Getting a bit serious - ya - one can be offended but if really bonded to the questioner - they should work out the reason for the question and why/why not answer.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

No idea what thread you are referencing so keep that in mind. 

I think we should be able to ask our spouses questions about their thoughts, experiences, beliefs, etc. If there is something they are uncomfortable with answering (like past sexual experiences), then that is a different issue and topic that has been well discussed here. 

I also think we should be able to ask our spouses to do things for/with us, _within reason_. The problem is, that "within reason" is going to vary from person to person. But really, just use your brain. 

If a man knows damn well that his wife is repulsed by anal, he would be a fool to keep asking for it. If he does ask and his wife gets pissed, well, he did that to himself. Do I think that is divorce worthy? No, but it isn't something I'm personally repulsed by (nor am I on the receiving end). 

If a man is into foot stuff and he genuinely has no idea how his wife would feel, then he should bring it up one way or another. If his wife isn't into it, fine, but she certainly shouldn't shame him about it. It's a fetish/kink/whatever that has no harm to either partner and hadn't been previously discussed. 

If a man is going to be a dumbass and ask for a threesome, open marriage, etc., then he deserves the consequences that follow. Chances are his wife would not be into that and unlike a foot fetish, it is something that can definitely be harmful to a marriage. Just ASKING can definitely be harmful. Being married to someone who wants to have other partners is understandably a huge red flag. If a man or woman wants a spouse who only wants them, then yeah, divorce away.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I don't think there is a question my wife could ask that would make me immediately lose respect, love or trust just by the asking of the question if a question could do that I think there is some weakness in the foundation of the marriage. At the same time I don't think there are many question that I could be asked that my wife wouldn't already know the answer to.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> I think you should be free to ask anything in a relationship. Some questions are the biggest tells of a person’s true nature. So I say bring it on!


This brings up a good point that's been swirling around in my mind. 

We tell our kids that they can come to us with anything and they can ask us or discuss anything with and even though we may not agree with something or think that it is not appropriate, we want to create an environment where the kids will talk to us. 

One of the reasons for that is so we can know what they are thinking and what they are up to and what is going on in their head and in their world. 
..... and there for we can intervene if necessary. 

But if we create an environment of, "I better not ever hear of you..............." Then they are going to hide the information that we need the most from us. 

I kind of feel the same way about spouses. The more we close off the safe exchange of information and the more we say, "I better not ever hear of you........." It's likely not going to prevent the activity, it will just prevent us from being aware of it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't think there is a question my wife could ask that would make me immediately lose respect, love or trust just by the asking of the question if a question could do that I think there is some weakness in the foundation of the marriage.


I stated almost exactly that in the other thread. 

If I were to boot my partner out because she posed a question to me, that probably means one or both of us had one foot out the door to begin with. 

Or that the relationship was more of a master-servant relationship rather than one of mutual love, respect and admiration and I just didn't like what my servant was getting at.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ShatteredKat said:


> Getting a bit serious - ya - one can be offended but if really bonded to the questioner - they should work out the reason for the question and why/why not answer.


aka Basic Communication and Relating to Another Human Being 101


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I would hope that if someone was going to ask inappropriate questions that I would consider red flags for whatever reason, that I found that out while dating and dumped them and didn't ever get married to them. But if they hid that and managed to get married before they revealed that particular insecurity or picadillo or whatever it might be, I would not answer it or discuss it. And if it was a big enough deal, I would consider the omission of not knowing that before marrying a big lie.


So I think I get what you are saying. 

If you are saying that people should be able to ask questions and communicate and that being open to such communications can expose potential issues before things get real big and out of hand - then if that is the case, then is there really such a thing as an "inappropriate" question???

Aren't the difficult and concerning questions the ones you need to get out in the open the most?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> So I think I get what you are saying.
> 
> If you are saying that people should be able to ask questions and communicate and that being open to such communications can expose potential issues before things get real big and out of hand - then if that is the case, then is there really such a thing as an "inappropriate" question???
> 
> Are the difficult and concerning questions the ones you need to get out in the open the most?


I might not be clearly catching your drift but I think a lot of those questions would be difficult because they just don’t fit in well with “normal” human relations and aren’t something people generally ask. My apologies for the word normal as I know that word is fairly elastic.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> If a man is going to be a dumbass and ask for a threesome, open marriage, etc., then he deserves the consequences that follow. Chances are his wife would not be into that and unlike a foot fetish, it is something that can definitely be harmful to a marriage. Just ASKING can definitely be harmful. Being married to someone who wants to have other partners is understandably a huge red flag. If a man or woman wants a spouse who only wants them, then yeah, divorce away.


OK but here is a bigger picture question - 

I get that most people are not going to want to get into some kind of nonmonogamy/threesome/swinging/open marriage etc type situation. 

But in the bigger picture, isn't it still better to have a safe environment where these kinds of sensitive and discomforting topics can be brought up and discussed vs having a closed environment where uncomfortable topics are forbidden and so people conduct themselves in secret? 

To put another way, let's say the end result is going to be divorce either way. Wouldn't it be better to bring it up and address it openly and discuss it and get each other's feelings and perspectives on the matter and if the end result is that they decide they are incompatible and have different goals and lifestyles etc wouldn't it be better dissolve the marriage collaboratively through open dialogue and understanding the other's point of view....... rather than thumping chests and hurling threats that any mention of it will result in "XYZ?" 

If the end result will be dissolution of the relationship anyway, wouldn't a safe environment to bring up difficult topics and open discussion, be a better way to end the relationship?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> So I think I get what you are saying.
> 
> If you are saying that people should be able to ask questions and communicate and that being open to such communications can expose potential issues before things get real big and out of hand - then if that is the case, then is there really such a thing as an "inappropriate" question???
> 
> Aren't the difficult and concerning questions the ones you need to get out in the open the most?


There are some questions that are inappropriate, like someone mentioned above as an example, past history. 

But yeah if there is something you are concealing such as your fetish until after you're married, that's being a liar. Someone who waits until they're married and tells their spouse they want to do wife swapping or that the only sex they're really interested in is her feet, and I know someone that happened to, to me that is definitely a reason to dump the person. They acted like nothing was out of the ordinary until after marriage and then all of a sudden, sex went to hell because of a concealed fetish.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

bobert said:


> No idea what thread you are referencing so keep that in mind.


I don't read every thread. Could anyone post a link to it? 

Thank you.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

bobert said:


> No idea what thread you are referencing so keep that in mind.
> 
> I think we should be able to ask our spouses questions about their thoughts, experiences, beliefs, etc. If there is something they are uncomfortable with answering (like past sexual experiences), then that is a different issue and topic that has been well discussed here.
> 
> ...


Yes to the red flag analogy. Presuming one is in a stable relationship one would presume that both parties would be aware of each other's value systems. Steering away from sex let's say your partner knows you are liberal in politics and atheist. All of a sudden your partner becomes born again (maybe he had a miracle recovery after illness) and asks you to attend church and go to a anti abortion rally. Huge red flags there and yes divorce is on the table in that situation for a lot of people.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There are some questions that are inappropriate, like someone mentioned above as an example, past history.
> 
> But yeah if there is something you are concealing such as your fetish until after you're married, that's being a liar. Someone who waits until they're married and tells their spouse they want to do wife swapping or that the only sex they're really interested in is her feet, and I know someone that happened to, to me that is definitely a reason to dump the person. They acted like nothing was out of the ordinary until after marriage and then all of a sudden, sex went to hell because of a concealed fetish.


I'm I crazy in thinking most people wouldn't have a problem discussing past history? And wouldn't the discussion of past history prevented your example?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There are some questions that are inappropriate, like someone mentioned above as an example, past history.
> 
> But yeah if there is something you are concealing such as your fetish until after you're married, that's being a liar. Someone who waits until they're married and tells their spouse they want to do wife swapping or that the only sex they're really interested in is her feet, and I know someone that happened to, to me that is definitely a reason to dump the person. They acted like nothing was out of the ordinary until after marriage and then all of a sudden, sex went to hell because of a concealed fetish.


I do understand what you are saying here and I'm not saying you are wrong. 

But again, I'm not sure that uncomfortable or awkward questions are always inappropriate. 

Since you used past history as your example lets use that. I have been very outspoken that I believe people are entitled to their privacy and are under no obligation to disclose their number or discuss any details of their prior private matters. 

HOWEVER. It is clearly a very big deal to many people and many marriages have been destroyed over past history issues...... many of which were directly related to omission or outright lies about past history....... as well as omission and outright lies of how important it actually was to the other person. 

So going back to my earlier post - sometimes the most uncomfortable topics awkward questions are the ones that need to be brought up the most. 

If prior history is a crucial topic to someone, they do need to broach it for it will always manifest at some point anyway. I stand by my position that people are not obligated to disclose their prior private matters,,,, but if someone throws a sht fit because they won't answer the question, then each have their answer... the question still needed to be posed since it was a key factor to that person. 

see where I'm going with this???

In regards to things like kinks and fetishes and other sex partners etc those things are often not static and set in stone from Day One. 

My wife and I had a completely traditional monogamous marriage for 10 years when we first got married. Swinging did not occur to either one of us at that time. 

After ten years of marriage and kids and mortgages etc we evolved and dynamics changed and we talked about it. And we talked some more and talked more. And eventually we decided to dip our toes in those waters and try it out. It worked for us and worked well for quite a few years. 

Then after about 10 years of swinging, our evolution as a couple continued and things changed and we talked about it and talked about it and eventually got out of that lifestyle. 

In regards to kinks and fetishes, there are days I wouldn't touch my wife's feet with a ten foot pole. There are other times she comes out of the shower with new bright and shiny pedicure and i'd gladly deep throat her toes like an African python swallowing a gazelle LOL 

But my point here is all of these things are addressed and dealt with through communication and posing questions and peeling back layers on a given topic. 

Without open channels of communication and a safe enough environment to bring up touchy topics, nothing would ever get accomplished.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> OK but here is a bigger picture question -
> 
> I get that most people are not going to want to get into some kind of nonmonogamy/threesome/swinging/open marriage etc type situation.
> 
> ...


I think it is unrealistic to expect or hope for a safe environment for this type of discussion. This is assuming that a married man is asking his wife to do something that he knows (or should know) she is against because of her personal beliefs. We just cannot expect a conversation like that to go well. Humans are emotional, reactive creatures. 

Should it be discussed anyway? That's a tricky one. 

If an open marriage is so important to someone that he would divorce over it, then yes, it should be talked about. And it should certainly be talked about before infidelity enters the picture. I think the "we're incompatible and over" conversation would be different than a "let's try something new" conversation, though. Of course, if a husband knows he will leave anyway then there is no harm (to him, hopefully) in trying. I think he should be more realistic though and just end it. Why ask your spouse to do something that you KNOW they are against? We should have more respect and love for them than to ever ask them to do something they are so against. 

If an open marriage is something that a man wants or has interest in but it is not a dealbreaker, then it's tricky. Some would (rightfully) argue that the wife has a right to know that he actually does desire other partners. Others might say what she doesn't know (AND what he does not act on) won't hurt her. If it's something that he "needs" enough to end the marriage or cause problems in the marriage, then it shouldn't go ignored but the above paragraph still applies. 

Just because a husband wants to open the marriage (in one way or another) doesn't always mean he will leave if his wife doesn't oblige. If he won't leave, doesn't have issues with performance, doesn't resent his wife, etc. then maybe it's best to keep it to himself.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Ask anything you want, just be prepared for the response. If you know your partner well then you ought to know enough to refrain from asking a potentially offensive question.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> I think it is unrealistic to expect or hope for a safe environment for this type of discussion.


If one has that kind of mentality, then you are probably correct. 

But I think if one has an open and safe communication style, then I think that person can discuss almost anything with almost any person and not cause offense, hurt feelings, anger, disgust etc. 

If someone is wanting someone else to do something, then they always have to be prepared for the answer to be no. 

And how well one can accept the answer no plays a huge part in how safe and open the communication can be.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Benbutton said:


> Ask anything you want, just be prepared for the response. If you know your partner well then you ought to know enough to refrain from asking a potentially offensive question.


I agree with this in principle. 

But we also need to keep in mind that the road to getting to know someone well is paved with questions and discussions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> I think it is unrealistic to expect or hope for a safe environment for this type of discussion. This is assuming that a married man is asking his wife to do something that he knows (or should know) she is against because of her personal beliefs. We just cannot expect a conversation like that to go well. Humans are emotional, reactive creatures.
> 
> Should it be discussed anyway? That's a tricky one.
> 
> ...


You are taking the assumption that men are the only ones that pose sensitive topics. 

If we are going to be sexist then shouldn't we point out that females are supposed to be the better communicators? 

Again, I'm talking bigger picture here. Aren't females the ones that are supposed to be wanting a safe and open environment for communication and meaningful personal interaction? 

Is that something we can achieve if we assume a hostile and punitive environment if a wrong question is asked??

I'm not trying to be mean or poke you in your wounds and this is a rhetorical question you do not need to answer, but how much of your disaster involved secrecy and subterfuge and deception and lack of open communication and lack of just common decency? I'm not pointing fingers or placing blame, but how much heartache and destruction could have been at least lessened with some frank, open discussion? 

And how do we start discussions?? By asking questions.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I'm I crazy in thinking most people wouldn't have a problem discussing past history? And wouldn't the discussion of past history prevented your example?


Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments. 

Don't you think it would have been a little weird if a woman just asked out of thin air, hey you don't have a foot fetish do you?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think part of the reactions in the other thread were due to the delivery and circumstances.

If my wife, who already knows my stance on sharing/swapping and has convinced me for decades she feels the same, asked me to have sex with one of her friends while she banged the husband, we would have a very real problem, especially if she had already been talking with her friend about it.

I wouldn't go nuclear immediately but we would have a serious talk where I let her know we are in trouble and she would need to really explain herself and how she decided, given how long we have been together and how well she knows my position on such things, just what is going on with her.

If she just brought up the subject of non monogamous sexual behavior as a discussion topic, I would be happy to talk with her about it and exchange our thoughts because she can talk to me about anything safely.

In the first instance, she would be asking to take an action that would destroy our marriage and I would be surprised she didn't realize it.

In the second instance, she would be exchanging and sharing thoughts on the subject safely.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I do understand what you are saying here and I'm not saying you are wrong.
> 
> But again, I'm not sure that uncomfortable or awkward questions are always inappropriate.
> 
> ...


To each their own. 

There is no way, no how I could handle another man touching my wife. Ever. I am a one and only. I chose to be this way. I belong to my wife. She belongs to me. We made that vow to each other. I plan on keeping my word and expect the same from her. 

I'm game for any question to be asked at any time, but I don't agree completely with your way of thinking. I understand that people can evolve over time, but desiring sex with others after making a life long promise? I don't know, man. 

It would be highly out of character for my wife to ask my thoughts on swinging. If she was more of a party girl jn our younger years, maybe that wouldn't surprise me, but then again, I wouldn't have been interested in dating her. Regardless, I'm more than happy to field that question if she were to ask it. 

Unfortunately, a question like that would immediately cause me to question her. I'd stay calm. I'd listen. I'd ask her why she is thinking about such things. Problem is, no matter what she would tell me, I'd be highly skeptical. I'm not going to blindly believe her reasoning after asking such a question. That question doesn't just randomly come up. 

Also, you have to consider the circumstances of everyone's relationship. Would I have been more trusting of her reasoning for asking the swinger question when we were in our early 20s? Yes. Not today. We've been through ups and downs for 20 years together. My wife also put me through hell with a multi year deadbedroom that we recently fixed. My patience and understanding is shot to hell at this moment in time. We are slowly building back up our relationship together right now. Today would be a TERRIBLE time for her to ask such a question - but she is more than free to ask it. Problem is, I'll be thinking, "who is he? Who does she want to screw?" And I'll be digging for information until I find out. I'm at a point in my life where I no longer have time for that kind of crap.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I do understand what you are saying here and I'm not saying you are wrong.
> 
> But again, I'm not sure that uncomfortable or awkward questions are always inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Which is why if I even got a whiff of that while I was dating someone I immediately didn't go out with them again. If they wait and demand that information after you're married that's a problem. If they do it before and start asking all kinds of questions and making inferences, you can just leave them behind because you know where that's going. The one I ran into when I was dating a couple of times wasn't any example I've seen on here. It was someone making a comment that because I was good at something I must have done it a lot of times and saying it with a disapproving tone. That would be the end of the date. That's inappropriate. Would be even more inappropriate if they saved that until after marriage and then you found out their issues. 

Usually when guys go fishing, they're looking for ego validation. They're fishing trying to get you to say they're the biggest or the best or the most attractive guy you've ever been with. I can't tell you what a huge turn off that is.

It's mostly guys who can't handle information about past history. It's specifically the ones who will ask who can't handle it. I have met a couple of guys back when I was dating who did not ask and we can talk casually about it because it wasn't any kind of judgmentalism or insecurity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

When you are dating and if you are open about your past and how you see sex and marriage etc and share the same values then it's unlikely that either will want to ask the other something that would shock or upset them. 
For example relating to the other thread, if I wanted to try swinging or threesomes then Mr D would not have been the right man to marry. Same visa versa. 

Like most here we value faithfulness and that's a non negotiable boundary we wouldn't cross. So if one did suddenly suggest having sex with another couple after many years as with the other poster, then of course it would cause upset and hurt. 
It's not like disagreeing over what car to get. Or which wallpaper to have. Or where the child goes to school. 

It's against the whole idea of marriage between 2 people. It would shake the while foundations of that marriage and what it's built on. 

If a man I was married to ever bought that up I would know I had married the wrong person. 

We see the devastation that has come upon him and his marriage. He should never have bought it up. He should never have mentioned it for his wife's sake and for his marriages sake.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments.
> 
> Don't you think it would have been a little weird if a woman just asked out of thin air, hey you don't have a foot fetish do you?


Definitely not all men but there do seem to be far more instances of retroactive jealousy and bizarre shaming attacks from men than women.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments.
> 
> Don't you think it would have been a little weird if a woman just asked out of thin air, hey you don't have a foot fetish do you?


All of these questions are legit weird because they are not COMMON. Most people are pretty vanilla with a dash of cinnamon on occassion. There are reasons why they are called fetishes for heaven's sake! That's why people who overindulge in these behaviors are considered pervs. Hence the reason it would be a sensitive topic...


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> If one has that kind of mentality, then you are probably correct.
> 
> But I think if one has an open and safe communication style, then I think that person can discuss almost anything with almost any person and not cause offense, hurt feelings, anger, disgust etc.
> 
> ...


I think one can have an open and safe communication style, and still react poorly to something this extreme. Like you said, they can discuss "almost anything". Almost. No one is perfect and no one will handle every conversation well, no matter how well trained they are in communication. 



oldshirt said:


> You are taking the assumption that men are the only ones that pose sensitive topics.
> 
> If we are going to be sexist then shouldn't we point out that females are supposed to be the better communicators?
> 
> ...


You are assuming that I wasn't just using a man as an example. That's all it was. It was easier and more clear than being ambiguous. 

If you want to go that route, aren't females the ones who are supposed to want security? How secure are they going to feel if their partner is wanting to step out or get some fun on the side? Yet, she should still use her excellent, natural communication skills to discuss politely while making him a sandwich? 

She didn't cheat because she wanted an open marriage. Affair #1 was basically a failed exit affair. The intent, in the beginning (and the end), was not to have all the ****s in town. She wanted out (honestly, rightfully so) but was too chicken to make a move. And really, you could say the same about me. So yes, in that sense communication would have entirely prevented everything that happened. Affair #2 was more or less because of her childhood issues. And again, if she had felt she could talk to me about it then yes, it wouldn't have happened at all. No amount of openness would have helped though because neither of us were in a place to properly handle it. 

Apples and oranges.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is why if I even got a whiff of that while I was dating someone I immediately didn't go out with them again. If they wait and demand that information after you're married that's a problem. If they do it before and start asking all kinds of questions and making inferences, you can just leave them behind because you know where that's going. The one I ran into when I was dating a couple of times wasn't any example I've seen on here. It was someone making a comment that because I was good at something I must have done it a lot of times and saying it with a disapproving tone. That would be the end of the date. That's inappropriate. Would be even more inappropriate if they saved that until after marriage and then you found out their issues.
> 
> Usually when guys go fishing, they're looking for ego validation. They're fishing trying to get you to say they're the biggest or the best or the most attractive guy you've ever been with. I can't tell you what a huge turn off that is.
> 
> It's mostly guys who can't handle information about past history. It's specifically the ones who will ask who can't handle it. I have met a couple of guys back when I was dating who did not ask and we can talk casually about it because it wasn't any kind of judgmentalism or insecurity.


Quite a broad stroke of the brush about men. I'm curious, are you always this mad? It's either you are constantly pissed off about all men, or you've met the worst of the worst men on this planet. Every last bad one has somehow crossed your path. 

Instead of using the insecurity insult (which I see you use often), has it occurred to you that some men (like myself) are looking for a woman whose values match his own? When I was 22 years old, I was looking for a woman who I thought was of high quality to marry. I Consider sex to be special. As such, I wanted to find a woman who felt the same way. 1 previous partner or none. I would hold her to the same standard I held for myself. I asked these things early on in the relationship. Might as well get the big questions out of the way. I found that in my wife. 

Now, God forbid something happens and I am no longer married to my wife some day. If I started dating again, I would no longer ask that question. It's none of my business. I would assume any woman I would date at my age to have lived a full life and had plenty of sexual experiences. But at 22 years old, I expected to be able to find a woman who was a Virgin or only had 1 partner.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Quite a broad stroke of the brush about men. I'm curious, are you always this mad? It's either you are constantly pissed off about all men, or you've met the worst of the worst men on this planet. Every last bad one has somehow crossed your path.
> 
> Instead of using the insecurity insult (which I see you use often), has it occurred to you that some men (like myself) are looking for a woman whose values match his own? When I was 22 years old, I was looking for a woman who I thought was of high quality to marry. I Consider sex to be special. As such, I wanted to find a woman who felt the same way. 1 previous partner or none. I would hold her to the same standard I held for myself. I asked these things early on in the relationship. Might as well get the big questions out of the way. I found that in my wife.
> 
> Now, God forbid something happens and I am no longer married to my wife some day. If I started dating again, I would no longer ask that question. It's none of my business. I would assume any woman I would date at my age to have lived a full life and had plenty of sexual experiences. But at 22 years old, I expected to be able to find a woman who was a Virgin or only had 1 partner.


Thanks for the personal attack. I've noticed you doing quite a lot of that lately and not just with me. So maybe one of us has some sort of problem but I think you might want to look in the mirror.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thanks for the personal attack. I've noticed you doing quite a lot of that lately and not just with me. So maybe one of us has some sort of problem but I think you might want to look in the mirror.


Just calling them how I see them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Just calling them how I see them.


Right back at you.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

We can ask each other about anything. When I finally got answers from my ex, it was hard and it reinforced my reason to leave. However, I can ask my wife about anything and she answers without hesitation, including some hard truths about her past. I respect her for her honesty and love her all the more for it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> .
> 
> Don't you think it would have been a little weird if a woman just asked out of thin air, hey you don't have a foot fetish do you?


Honey in my world that wouldn't even warrant a discussion at the water cooler LOL 

I've had women come up and ask me if I'd be the backdoor man in a double penetration (declined) I've had women ask if I'd tie them up, clamp nipple clamps on their nipples and flog them. (declined) I've had women ask if I'd do MMF with male contact with her and her H (declined) I've had a woman offer me a BJ if she could get with my wife alone (declined) 

In fact the closest thing I've been asked about a foot fetish is one didn't ask if I had a fetish, she told me SHE had the fetish and ask if I'd 'F' her feet (accepted  ) 

I can go on but you get my point. 

Now was I upset or angered or held judgement towards those that asked me those things even though I declined? No, not at all. In fact I was gracious and even a bit flattered even though they weren't my thang. 

But where I'm going here is how are people supposed to know unless they ask/discuss it. And the less judgemental and accusatory someone is, the more likely people will be to be open and honest with them. 

That doesn't mean not have boundaries and standards and it doesn't mean doing things you don't want to do. It means not being a jerk and not retaliating against those that are simply posing a question to gather information or find out your position.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Honey in my world that wouldn't even warrant a discussion at the water cooler LOL
> 
> I've had women come up and ask me if I'd be the backdoor man in a double penetration (declined) I've had women ask if I'd tie them up, clamp nipple clamps on their nipples and flog them. (declined) I've had women ask if I'd do MMF with male contact with her and her H (declined) I've had a woman offer me a BJ if she could get with my wife alone (declined)
> 
> ...


Eww.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> This brings up a good point that's been swirling around in my mind.
> 
> We tell our kids that they can come to us with anything and they can ask us or discuss anything with and even though we may not agree with something or think that it is not appropriate, we want to create an environment where the kids will talk to us.
> 
> ...


Big difference between kids and spouses. 

We (hopefully) love our children unconditionally, and there is almost nothing they could ever do that would cause us to cut them out of our lives, no matter how disappointed we might be.

The same is not true for spouses. it’s not unconditional. Marriage is a relationship of mutual agreement, boundaries and expectations. And the love, commitment and integrity/continuance of the relationship is dependent on behavior and willing adherence to those boundaries.

So of course I want to create an environment of openness with my kids, so they can tell me difficult/uncomfortable things, knowing that I will always be there for them as best as possible. And then nothing they tell me will ever turn me away from them.

That’s not the case with a spouse. 
There are plenty of things they could do or tell us that would absolutely undermine/destroy our love, commitment and willingness to continue the relationship.

To your original question, I’m not sure there are questions that should warrant overt hostility and immediate divorce or anything of that nature. 
But yes, there are questions/requests my wife could ask that would absolutely undermine my trust/respect/confidence in our marriage. And that might very well lead to a divorce.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Big difference between kids and spouses.
> 
> We (hopefully) love our children unconditionally, and there is almost nothing they could ever do that would cause us to cut them out of our lives, no matter how disappointed we might be.
> 
> ...


You said it a better way than I did. 🤣


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> Big difference between kids and spouses.
> 
> We (hopefully) love our children unconditionally, and there is almost nothing they could ever do that would cause us to cut them out of our lives, no matter how disappointed we might be.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, our love and devotion to our spouse is not unconditional. It's very conditional in fact. 

But I will go back to what I said in the OP and some of the earlier posts, Are we better off having an evironment where things can be brought up and discussed openly and mindfully? or one where certain topics are verboten and there will be hell to pay if broached? 

Are we better people if we foster a safe environment were sensitive topics can be brought up and discussed? Or better people if we draw a line in the sand and don't bring anything up unless you have your bags packed? 

Knowing that the end of the relationship may be at hand either way, is one a better means to an end than the other? 

If divorce is assumed, is it better to go down with open, mindful discussion? Or go down with thoughts and actions unsaid?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thanks for the personal attack. I've noticed you doing quite a lot of that lately and not just with me. So maybe one of us has some sort of problem but I think you might want to look in the mirror.


I read that as more of an observation of your perceived attitude than a personal attack, and I think it’s a stretch to classify it that way.

My perception is that you sometimes come across as having a chip on your shoulder about men as well. Pointing out that observation is not a personal attack.

Let’s all relax and try not to be so on edge with each other.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I agree with you, our love and devotion to our spouse is not unconditional. It's very conditional in fact.
> 
> But I will go back to what I said in the OP and some of the earlier posts, Are we better off having an evironment where things can be brought up and discussed openly and mindfully? or one where certain topics are verboten and there will be hell to pay if broached?
> 
> ...


Anything should be discussable, with the realization that some discussions may lead down irreversible paths.

So no, I don’t think there should be “forbidden” topics. 

But if my wife asked me if I’d agree to open up our marriage, it would likely set us on a trajectory for divorce. 
I (hopefully) wouldn’t get hostile or emotionally reactive, but I know 99% likelihood what that means in terms of her respect/desire for me, so I’d most likely start working on my exit strategy. Even if she accepted my position of hell no.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments.


I agree that most men want to be the biggest and best that their partner has ever had, but is it really much different for women? They don't want to hear from their husband that Denise was a phenomenal lay or Lauren gave a wicked BJ and no one can compare. At least not the one I'm married to.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

It is a free country, but I agree with Diana - any question you ask a spouse, you should be ok with the consequences. If you ask if they want to try swinging, for me, that would be a deal breaker, because I was married to a cheater, and at least in my mind, marriage would mean that I was with someone who cherished me, and felt I was enough for them. Merely posing the question would mean we would need to do some serious talking/counseling about whether we were going to move forward together as a couple or split up. If you want to have a discussion as a couple about theoretical stuff, again, that's fine, but I would hope that if you are asking questions like "do you think humans can be monogamous?" that you would have discussed that together WELL before marriage and be on the same page, otherwise what is the point of being married?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I just don't get why anyone would bring up something that they know would be highly distressing to their spouse, such as adultery. Saying you want to have sex with someone else isn't far off actually having sex with someone else in my mind. It shows a desire to do it. As the saying goes, where the mind goes the man follows. 
This is why its so important to marry a person who shares your values and beliefs and standards.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I stated almost exactly that in the other thread.
> 
> If I were to boot my partner out because she posed a question to me, that probably means one or both of us had one foot out the door to begin with.
> 
> Or that the relationship was more of a master-servant relationship rather than one of mutual love, respect and admiration and I just didn't like what my servant was getting at.


Old shirt, if your wife asks you to sleep with another guy you don't have a relationship of mutual respect. Her asking you that to your face is communicating how much she doesn't respect you.

Now some guys get off on being disrespected. They might enjoy the thought of some other guy doing their wife. But if that's not you, and you think the appropriate response to a statement like that is to treat your wife with understanding and respect, then you do not know how to balance the energy in your relationship.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Asking a spouse how they felt about a threesome is totally different than asking how they felt about having sex in the garage (very nice garage) on the work bench or motorcycle. 

One should know their spouse well enough not to go down roads asking things that cause them to think they're less than or plant insecurities.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

I'm just curious as to what question you would finally draw the line at in your mutually respectful relationship @oldshirt ?

How about if your wife asked you to pay for a weekend getaway for her and her lover?
How about he moves into the bedroom, you move to the couch but keep paying all the bills.
Maybe she asks if they can start going to social functions together as a couple and take you along with a dog collar and a leash, walking on all fours?

At what point do you think maybe you'd start considering that your relationship might not be mutually respectful anymore?


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments.


Trust me, I've been with enough women to know that they can't handle it either. This is not a gender specific issue.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for this thread. It has brought to me the realization that I should be thankful for the open communication that has existed from the very early years and is still available when difficult questions come up after 35 years. The other 80% of this thread is bluster and posturing, and it has reached the ugly stage where the thread is no longer valuable.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

pastasauce79 said:


> I don't read every thread. Could anyone post a link to it?
> 
> Thank you.


I believe it is this one:








wife swap that has left me in tatters


this happened 7 years ago but is as painful today as it was then.i talked my wife into swapping with close pals just for the thrill of seeing her with another man .so i know its my fault.we were in their house all nervous and trying to make small talk when my wife said to the other guy come on...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses yet but I'll give my input.

Spouses should be able to ask each other pretty much anything. The "chest thumping" I did in the other thread was assuming my wife of 30 plus years came to me out of the blue and asked if I would want to swap with a couple we know, like the couple in that thread. My wife and I know exactly where we stand on topics like that. It would be so far out of character for her and we have already agreed that there will never be anyone else pulled into the intimate part of our lives. 

Not only would I be suspicious I wouldn't even need much more evidence to know that something's already going on. I mean how could she even be thinking about sex with another man, especially someone we are friends with? How could she be okay with me being with another women, when she is my only sex partner, ever? I would be absolutely heartbroken from just being asked the question. I don't think I would recover from that, similar to actual infidelity. The marriage would be irreparably damaged.

I will concede that if she said something like, "have you ever thought about swapping with another couple?" I may not immediately tell her to get the f out. My immediate thought would be "It's a Trap!" However, I would still be thinking WTH? Then there would be lots of questions probing to see where this is coming from and where it is going.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

My answer is no!

Just because you can put your foot in your mouth does not mean you should. 

Not all questions are harmless.


_Lilith-_


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> My answer is no!
> 
> Just because you can put your foot in your mouth does not mean you should.
> 
> ...


If I could quintuple the likes on this post I would!!!


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> Thanks for this thread. It has brought to me the realization that I should be thankful for the open communication that has existed from the very early years and is still available when difficult questions come up after 35 years. The other 80% of this thread is bluster and posturing, and it has reached the ugly stage where the thread is no longer valuable.


i don't think it's bluster. For what it's worth it would be one thing to approach a difficult topic like "Do you think things have gone stale in the bedroom? If so how can we spice it up?" To the other end of the spectrum where you basically come off shady AF by asking your partner to swing or some other fetish out of the blue.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Old shirt, let’s use a different question.

what if your wife came to you and said, “you know, I’ve been wondering about murdering people. Don’t you think that would be fun? What do you think? How should we do it? What can we do to get away with it? What methods would be your favorite?”

Considering you are cool with swinging (and I get the impression you think others should be cool with it as well), let’s try to find a question you may not be comfortable with. Do you still hold fast to your arguments?

don’t get me wrong, I think your arguments are plausible and well thought out - but if your wife came to you with a question that was quite disturbing…. Are you still going to be super understanding or are you going to lose trust in your wife? Are you going to be skeptical of what she is doing behind your back?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

gaius said:


> Old shirt, if your wife asks you to sleep with another guy you don't have a relationship of mutual respect. Her asking you that to your face is communicating how much she doesn't respect you.


Or does it mean the opposite? Isn't broaching the subject with you and getting your thoughts and feelings and having a discussion about it so you know where things stand and can make informed decisions share your own perspectives and thoughts on the matter the greater sign of respect?

If someone asks that question does it mean that they DO respect and have enough faith and confidence in you and in your relationship that they feel they can have an open and honest discussion about their thoughts and feelings and are showing you the respect and agency to get your thoughts and feelings on the matter so you can make informed decisions and know where things stand? 

Is that actually the greater respect?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Old shirt, let’s use a different question.
> 
> what if your wife came to you and said, “you know, I’ve been wondering about murdering people. Don’t you think that would be fun? What do you think? How should we do it? What can we do to get away with it? What methods would be your favorite?”
> 
> ...


You read my mind because I was actually going to use torturing and killing puppies as an example but lets use murdering people as the example. 

I trying to look at this from a bigger picture and a broader concept. I am talking more about having a safe environment and open channels of communication vs are there things I would dump my wife for. 

So lets take mass murder as the example and I'll see if I can find the right words to express my thoughts. 

If my wife started coming to me with thoughts and feelings of mass murder and asking me if I would like to go on a killing spree with her - first off I would seek psychiatric help for her because something has obviously gone wrong in her head,,,, but I'll play along with what you're getting at as it is a valid point and will help me explain what I'm trying to get at. 

If she started asking me about going on a killing spree, I would say no, and I would know that we were not compatible as a couple and would dissolve the marriage. I'm not a killer and I do not want to be with a killer or have anything to with that. 

So I get that some things show a foundational incompatibility in the relationship. I get it, I really do. 

BUT HERE IS MY QUESTION - Am I/we better off if we have a safe environment and open channels of communication so that our partner feels safe and confident enough in us as human beings that they approach us and talk to us BEFORE taking any actions vs knowing that will react in a knee-jerk and hostile manner so there for they sit and stew in secrecy and lurk about in the shadows?

In the murder scenario, isn't it better to get an insight into what is going on in her brain when it is just a hairbrained idea rather than let her further develop and plot and plan the scheme? If the subject is brought up and discussed at an earlier time, the better the chances of intervention and discussion of WHY someone is thinking about what they are thinking and other interventions and options can be implemented. 

If my wife is a murdered at heart, the end result would still be divorce, but maybe some lives could be saved if if she felt safe enough to bring it up to me first, rather than just going out and doing it one day. 

Do you see what I am getting at???


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DudeInProgress said:


> I read that as more of an observation of your perceived attitude than a personal attack, and I think it’s a stretch to classify it that way.
> 
> My perception is that you sometimes come across as having a chip on your shoulder about men as well. Pointing out that observation is not a personal attack.
> 
> Let’s all relax and try not to be so on edge with each other.


Thanks for the personal attack.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

bobert said:


> I agree that most men want to be the biggest and best that their partner has ever had, but is it really much different for women? They don't want to hear from their husband that Denise was a phenomenal lay or Lauren gave a wicked BJ and no one can compare. At least not the one I'm married to.


They don't usually ask either.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I think part of the reactions in the other thread were due to the delivery and circumstances.
> 
> If my wife, who already knows my stance on sharing/swapping and has convinced me for decades she feels the same, asked me to have sex with one of her friends while she banged the husband, we would have a very real problem, especially if she had already been talking with her friend about it.
> 
> ...


My sentiments exactly. My wife and I are very comfortable talking about all subjects. Over the course of 30+ years we've pretty much talked about every topic imaginable, including our steadfast commitment to monogamy. As you say here, if she just started a general conversation about non-monogamy it would be fine. But if she said I've been talking to our friend Jane and we wanted to see if you and her husband Richard would be interested in a wife swap. I would be absolutely devastated, not to mention totally flabbergasted to hear that coming from my wife. I would be wondering what happened to make her devalue and be so dissatisfied with our intimate sex life that she wants to share it with someone else. Why does she want another man inside her? To me this means she is on the verge of or already in an emotional affair with someone else. The thought process that has to happen before she actually got to the point of asking me the question is what concerns me. 

All the "chest thumping" came from how it went down in the other thread. A husband in a 50 year marriage with a wife that has only ever been with him talks to his buddy about a wife swap. Then he comes to his wife asking if she would have sex with his buddy while he bangs his bud's wife in the same room. If I were the wife in that situation I would have grabbed a suitcase and started packing up his ****. There is a chance I would reconcile eventually, but this guy even kept it up after his wife said no. He spent days at it until she caved. I find it amazing and disturbing that after 50 years of marriage you wouldn't know your audience AND not take no as her answer. 

Now, if we were in the first few years of our marriage and we hadn't had any discussion about this, other than the general expectation that a marriage is monogamous, and my wife came and asked if I ever thought about swapping with someone, like our friend Richard and Jane, I would react differently than I would now. I think I would still have WTF? in the back of my mind, but I would certainly engage in the conversation, if for no other reason that to get an understanding of what she is thinking/considering. It would be a prime opportunity to set the boundary that I will never go for something like that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Benbutton said:


> Trust me, I've been with enough women to know that they can't handle it either. This is not a gender specific issue.


Women don't usually want the details on their man's sexual history. They assume they slept with other women. They don't usually start asking questions about it so they can be judgy about it. And I've never heard of one asking if theirs was the tightest vagina they've ever had. I'm sure there have been some who asked if they were the prettiest, but none of my friends were that naive.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

But since murder is the extreme example, lets use divorce itself as an example. 

What I think this thread is showing is that there are some things that if the person even has the idea or thoughts in their head, then that is grounds for divorce. 

so let's use divorce itself. 

If your partner approaches you and asks if you have thought about divorcing and if you want a divorce - that shows that they are obviously thinking about divorce and at least have it in their head. 

Now extrapolating from some of the responses here, I am going to assuming that some of people are going to take that as the marriage is over and that they do not want to be with someone that is thinking about divorce enough to bring it up and there for they no longer want to be married to that person that showed their hand in asking about divorce. 

I get it. If your partner is asking about divorce, that means they are thinking about divorce which means they do not feel the marriage is completely fulfilling and they are not entirely fulfilled blah blah blah, I get it. 

But my bigger conceptual question here is do we have better world if some things are so unacceptable that we nuke it from orbit just for having the thought of it? Or do we have a better world if ideas and concepts can be brought up and discussed to where people at least understand where the other is coming from even if in the end it means that the relationship is not compatible and not survivable? Isn't communication and understanding better even if the relationship ultimately does not survive?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> BUT HERE IS MY QUESTION - Am I/we better off if we have a safe environment and open channels of communication so that our partner feels safe and confident enough in us as human beings that they approach us and talk to us BEFORE taking any actions vs knowing that will react in a knee-jerk and hostile manner so there for they sit and stew in secrecy and lurk about in the shadows?
> 
> 
> Do you see what I am getting at???


I do see what you are getting at. 

I now see where our disconnect is. 

You are making an assumption that I am not making. You hold a trust in your wife that I do not. Your scenario has your wife coming to you with an uncomfortable idea BEFORE anything has happened. I am NOT making this assumption. I can't make this assumption and I won't make it. I also believe a lot of people are like me. If my wife came to me with something that is very uncharacteristic of her, I am immediately going to think that something has already happened or something is already in the works. 

If things worked out the way you said where all things are brought to your attention prior to anything ever happening and it is just the start of an idea.... then I can agree with you. I've learned plenty in my life that most people ask for forgiveness over permission - follow me? If someone comes to me with an idea they know I would not go along with, I'm going to assume the worst. They've either already done it or they are in the process of doing it.

How many cheating stories do we need to read about where a husband or wife goes to their spouse, asks for the marriage to open up, and then before the the spouse can even finish the word "Yes" (that they were most likely pressured into saying) the spouse that asked for the open relationship is already in a dead sprint for the front door because they already had their affair partner picked out and they were just waiting for the bullshyt "yes" so they were absolved of their guilt/wrong doing?

That's my point. So, from my perspective, I think you are just a more trusting person than I am.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

I’m in the camp that spouses should be able to talk about anything and feel safe doing so. When we first got married 48 years ago, we would occasionally spice things up in the bedroom by watching a little porn. We both enjoyed it and it led to some hot sex. Later, our taste turned to softer stuff like Cinemax.

We quit doing that for several years and then one night about 20 years ago, during one of our in-home date nights, I asked her if she would like to watch a little porn. She explored, calling me every vile name she could think of. It went on for an hour. From that point on, I never felt that I could talk to her about anything. It took a toll on our marriage. She would sometimes cry and ask, “why won’t you talk to me.” My answer was always the same, “because I can’t trust you to not explode into a tirade.”
It took us years to work through that and still, to this day, I hesitate to talk to her about anything pertaining to sex. I disagree that one should know enough about their spouse not to ask some questions. I’m not a mind reader. How do I know unless I ask? Marriage is hard enough without feeling unsafe talking to your spouse.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I do see what you are getting at.
> 
> I now see where our disconnect is.
> 
> ...


Right but none of us live in a vacuum. The world is a gazillion moving parts with things happening and occuring every moment of every day for our entire lifespan. Yes something happened to plant the idea,,,, so let's talk about it. 

Let's go back to the murder plot. WHY is she wanting to kill people. Did someone do something to her and now she wants vengeance? Are the squirrels in the bird feeder beaming ideas into her mind and she needs emergency psychiatric care? 

How developed is this idea? Does she have a detailed plan? Is it feasable? Has she secured the murder weapon? Does she have a place and time to carry it out? What is she going to do with the bodies? All of this discussion gives insight into where her mind is at and where things stand. 

It's communication, I think I read somewhere that communication is important in a relationship. 

But here is the thing that goes back to an earlier post where I mentioned talking to our kids. Because something is not talked about does not mean that it won't happen. And because something is talked about doesn't mean that it will. 

You can apply that to drugs and alcohol and sex with kids. But it's also true with adults. With open communication you can at least get out on the table where someone's mind is at and what they are thinking and feeling. You may not like it and you may not be able to live with it, but you can at least know where things stand and make informed decisions on what is the best option for you.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men are the ones who can't handle it. They want you to say they're the biggest and the best and they can't handle the truth. Women have learned to just avoid those conversations where the man is trying to get validation and fishing for compliments.
> 
> Don't you think it would have been a little weird if a woman just asked out of thin air, hey you don't have a foot fetish do you?


So guys who freaks out over a woman's past are usually fairly insecure, wouldn't you want to know that early on? I think the reason a lot of relationships breakdown eventually is the old "we grew apart" problem "we're not on the same wave length anymore". But a lot of times what is going on is you never really knew each other to begin with. Discussing anything and everything can avoid that problem. 

No If a guy having a foot fetish would be a big problem for a woman then no I think it would be wise to ask that even out of thin air. But the problem with fetishes is they can develop on their own at any time, It's not like if you have a kink you know it your entire life. 

IMO @oldshirt makes a good analogy with being a parent. You want to create a relationship where everyone feel comfortable to discuss anything. If someone feels safe to openly discuss anything they are less likely to hide things that could turn out to be a major issue down the road. I mean if you are going to spend your life with someone you're going to discover those things eventually, so you might as well learn as much as you possible can about each other early on.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't think there is a question my wife could ask that would make me immediately lose respect, love or trust just by the asking of the question if a question could do that I think there is some weakness in the foundation of the marriage. At the same time I don't think there are many question that I could be asked that my wife wouldn't already know the answer to.


Depends on the question, though, right?

Q1. How do you feel about open relationships?
Q2. Could you be gone tonight at 6:00 so I can screw the mailman?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

gaius said:


> Old shirt, if your wife asks you to sleep with another guy you don't have a relationship of mutual respect. Her asking you that to your face is communicating how much she doesn't respect you.


I think the poly people of the world would say otherwise.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Or does it mean the opposite? Isn't broaching the subject with you and getting your thoughts and feelings and having a discussion about it so you know where things stand and can make informed decisions share your own perspectives and thoughts on the matter the greater sign of respect?
> 
> If someone asks that question does it mean that they DO respect and have enough faith and confidence in you and in your relationship that they feel they can have an open and honest discussion about their thoughts and feelings and are showing you the respect and agency to get your thoughts and feelings on the matter so you can make informed decisions and know where things stand?
> 
> Is that actually the greater respect?


If your wife has some idea that her screwing other men might get you off then it's fine to have a conversation. That's great even. But for men who don't get off on that, it's a slap in the face. I don't put the effort into my marriage that I do to come home and be a sounding board if my wife ever gets some desire for other men. I'm not an orbiter, not a gay friend. Her trying to turn me into that is like taking a dump on my head on the way out.

And honestly old shirt, you have your boundaries too. Every swinger / poly guy always sets some weird, arbitrary boundaries to make it seem like it's not what it is. "My wife only talks to her lover Monday through Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. Thursdays and Sundays belong to me because we have something they'll never have!" 

There are questions she could ask that would cross your boundaries and annoy you as well. That you wouldn't want her to be honest about. You're only so accepting of the sex thing because it's something you get off on.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Cletus said:


> I think the poly people of the world would say otherwise.


Hence the next line of my post that you cut out


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Right but none of us live in a vacuum. The world is a gazillion moving parts with things happening and occuring every moment of every day for our entire lifespan. Yes something happened to plant the idea,,,, so let's talk about it.
> 
> Let's go back to the murder plot. WHY is she wanting to kill people. Did someone do something to her and now she wants vengeance? Are the squirrels in the bird feeder beaming ideas into her mind and she needs emergency psychiatric care?
> 
> ...


I'm not against talking about it. I didn't mean to give that impression - but I've already made my decision if a subject like this gets brought up.

Of course I'm going to talk about it once it is brought up. You better believe I'm going to be digging for answers. However, A subject of this magnitude will always cause me to lose trust and raise my suspicion. Whether it is a desire to swing or to murder people doesn't matter. If a question like that is being asked, I'll ask questions to figure out exactly what you just said..... but I'm not going to believe a word that is being told to me. Again, I think this is just a difference between you and I. I think you are of the mindset that your wife would be truthful about all of your follow up questions in the murder scenario. If my wife is asking me about something she knows for a fact there is NO WAY I would be ok with, I am going to assume any of my follow up questions will be met with lies. Why? Because why would my wife be talking to me about something that she knows I would never agree to? Something is wrong. Something is terribly wrong and I'll have to work on my own to find the answer. Murder or swinging, it doesn't matter. First opportunity I get I will be going through her phone, email, whatever. I'll need to get the truth so that I can make an informed decision for myself and my children.

Like it was said before, I'm cool with loving children unconditionally. Love for my wife is highly conditional (as it is for many, many people).

I still think we see eye to eye here. The only thing we are disagreeing on is our level of trust and skepticism.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> . So, from my perspective, I think you are just a more trusting person than I am.


I trust people to be people. 

I trust women to be women. 

I trust men to be men. 

That means that I trust all people are fallible and have their own strengths and weaknesses and soft underbellies and at the end of the day will pick the option that they believe will benefit them the most at that time. 

I trust women have their own deep, dark and perverted desires and are not these sweet, innocent paragons of virtue that the religious community and society wants you to think. I trust women are hypergamous by nature and her sexuality will be aroused by a good looking, high status male interacting with her a confident, initiative manner. 

I trust men will be on the prowl and opportunistic and will take interest in a female showing signs of interest in him. 

I trust that we are not strictly monogamous by nature as creatures of the earth and that all people have fantasies and desires that go beyond our legal spouse. 

I trust that given the right set of circumstances and conditions that all people will lie, cheat, steal and even kill. 

I trust that all people have within them the potential for great kindness, compassion, love and generosity. 

I trust that all people have within them the potential for great hatred, violence, greed and destruction as well. 

So yes. I am trusting. I am trusting that people are creatures of the earth and capable of all of the above given the right environment, conditions and parameters.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Not only would I be suspicious I wouldn't even need much more evidence to know that something's already going on. I mean how could she even be thinking about sex with another man, especially someone we are friends with?


Really?

I thought that basically everyone occasionally thought about sex with someone other than their spouse, maybe even the hot guy next door who mows the lawn with his washboard abs and no shirt. Thoughts they generally keep to themselves in a loving monogamous relationship, but thoughts they had nonetheless. 

Who hasn't heard of the celebrity hall pass? That one famous person who turns your crank so hard that your spouse would have to agree to allow a night of unfettered passion if the opportunity arose? It is of course just a game that everyone knows isn't reality - it is, in fact, more of a question as to who other than you turns on your spouse. In the context of this thread, it is a sideways question.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There isn't anything I can think of that would immediately trigger hostility or a wish to divorce, _other than_ a direct verbal or physical attack of some sort, or revelation of behavior that clearly violates our existing and _previously discussed_ boundaries. Anything can be _asked_, with an expectation that it will be discussed rationally _even if_ it's virtually certain to be denied. Swinging, threesomes, taking a lover on the side, specific sex acts (for ourselves or with others), wild financial ideas, moving away from family, dealing with family drama ... all fine and all dealt with openly. Okay, I _might_ have filed for divorce if my wife said she was going to vote for Trump - but first I'd want her to get an MRI to be sure she didn't have a brain tumor!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diceplayer said:


> one night about 20 years ago, during one of our in-home date nights, I asked her if she would like to watch a little porn. She explored, calling me every vile name she could think of. It went on for an hour. From that point on, I never felt that I could talk to her about anything. It took a toll on our marriage. She would sometimes cry and ask, “why won’t you talk to me.” My answer was always the same, “because I can’t trust you to not explode into a tirade.”
> It took us years to work through that and still, to this day, I hesitate to talk to her about anything pertaining to sex. I disagree that one should know enough about their spouse not to ask some questions. I’m not a mind reader. How do I know unless I ask? Marriage is hard enough without feeling unsafe talking to your spouse.


Thank you for sharing your first hand account. It really truly highlights some of the concerns I have and what I can see happening when people take a scorched earth approach to a topic they find discomforting. 

I also agree with what you said about how are we supposed to get to know people without talking to them. 

In everything we do in the world, we have to take some risk. We have to have some vulnerability in getting to know someone and some vulnerability in order for them to know us.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

gaius said:


> Hence the next line of my post that you cut out


The next paragraph is:

"Now some guys get off on being disrespected. They might enjoy the thought of some other guy doing their wife. But if that's not you, and you think the appropriate response to a statement like that is to treat your wife with understanding and respect, then you do not know how to balance the energy in your relationship."

Poly people don't see it as disrespectful. The way sentence 1 and 2 are linked, the men who enjoy "the thought of some other guy doing their wife" is predicated on disrespect. If that is their agreement, then it is the absolute height of respect to ask permission.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> My sentiments exactly. My wife and I are very comfortable talking about all subjects. Over the course of 30+ years we've pretty much talked about every topic imaginable, including our steadfast commitment to monogamy. As you say here, if she just started a general conversation about non-monogamy it would be fine. But if she said I've been talking to our friend Jane and we wanted to see if you and her husband Richard would be interested in a wife swap. I would be absolutely devastated, not to mention totally flabbergasted to hear that coming from my wife. I would be wondering what happened to make her devalue and be so dissatisfied with our intimate sex life that she wants to share it with someone else. Why does she want another man inside her? To me this means she is on the verge of or already in an emotional affair with someone else. The thought process that has to happen before she actually got to the point of asking me the question is what concerns me.
> 
> All the "chest thumping" came from how it went down in the other thread. A husband in a 50 year marriage with a wife that has only ever been with him talks to his buddy about a wife swap. Then he comes to his wife asking if she would have sex with his buddy while he bangs his bud's wife in the same room. If I were the wife in that situation I would have grabbed a suitcase and started packing up his ****. There is a chance I would reconcile eventually, but this guy even kept it up after his wife said no. He spent days at it until she caved. I find it amazing and disturbing that after 50 years of marriage you wouldn't know your audience AND not take no as her answer.
> 
> Now, if we were in the first few years of our marriage and we hadn't had any discussion about this, other than the general expectation that a marriage is monogamous, and my wife came and asked if I ever thought about swapping with someone, like our friend Richard and Jane, I would react differently than I would now. I think I would still have WTF? in the back of my mind, but I would certainly engage in the conversation, if for no other reason that to get an understanding of what she is thinking/considering. It would be a prime opportunity to set the boundary that I will never go for something like that.


I think both this and @ConanHub post are good examples of why a partner feeling safe to ask anything is important. Them asking the question gives you very valuable information. Also in the discussion maybe you find out the reason they asked is you have said and done somethings that made them think your feelings on the issue may have changed and now you have the opportunity to set that straight. 

There are obviously some questions that will lead to a problem that has to be dealt with but It's better to deal with it head on then let it fester in the mind and grow into a bigger issue. 

I think @oldshirt was clear he's not saying badgering and manipulating with the question was ok. Obviously for a person to feel safe to ask a question they also need to be ready to respect the answer they receive.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I trust people to be people.
> 
> I trust women to be women.
> 
> ...


I can't fully disagree with you here, however, I expect high quality people to be above the base animalistic desire. I would never say those desires don't "tug" at you, but I do expect people to be able to suppress those feelings and use logic to direct their choices. 

I'm not even sure what is being argued about at this point. I'm in full agreement with you that anything should be completely open. Any question can be asked - but consequences also exist. Just because you do not want to dole out consequences as it concerns your wife for asking very uncomfortable questions doesn't mean others won't. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Everyone needs to do what they need to do in order to progress their life as they see fit. My life experiences tell me that my wife asking me about swinging would automatically trigger me to look for an exit strategy. Period. There is no reason to have multiple discussions. The first discussion and follow up questions will suffice. I fail to see how that is considered "chest thumping". You want to know as much information as possible. You want to have multiple discussions. I can respect that, but that ain't me. I need to do what I need to do in order to protect myself and my children.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> If one has that kind of mentality, then you are probably correct.
> 
> But I think if one has an open and safe communication style, then I think that person can discuss almost anything with almost any person and not cause offense, hurt feelings, anger, disgust etc.
> 
> ...


So, what if your wife came to you with a discussion and said she REALLY needed to experience a gang bang, and didn't want you to be there, and you wouldn't know anything about it afterwards, but she just needed to get that out of her system?

I read a blog post by a woman who writes erotica -- and she mentioned a TON of things she has on her sexual bucket list. MANY of them are with other men, some are with other women (including her own sisters!). Oh, and her husband has NO IDEA that she writes erotica. And she is a Mom. What do you think HIS reaction would be if she asked him if she could have sex with her sisters?? Or if she could have sex with 5-6 other guys?

Discussion is one thing, repercussions of that discussion are another thing, and anyone entering in to that type of discussion should be aware of that.

Oldshirt, you and your wife discussed swinging, and I BET that there had been hints about it before the discussion, or at least you both knew your feelings about it before hand.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bobert said:


> I agree that most men want to be the biggest and best that their partner has ever had, but is it really much different for women? They don't want to hear from their husband that Denise was a phenomenal lay or Lauren gave a wicked BJ and no one can compare. At least not the one I'm married to.


That's often true, but it may still be the truth. Comparing your partner to someone else is rarely wise, unless it's a positive comparison! Still some of these things wouldn't bother some people. Talking about this wouldn't be (and hasn't been) an issue for us. I can't be the biggest my wife has had, but I've learned to become the best. My wife asked about the best blow job I'd ever had, and used the information to (eventually) vastly surpass what that previous partner had been able to do. 

Insecurity can greatly limit us, and learning to deal with it gives us the opportunity to grow in wonderful ways.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can't fully disagree with you here, however, I expect high quality people to be above the base animalistic desire. I would never say those desires don't "tug" at you, but I do expect people to be able to suppress those feelings and use logic to direct their choices.


I disagree with your premise of makes for "high quality" people. IMO, high quality people learn to embrace and enjoy their base animalistic desires, but in a safe and nondestructive manner. Some of those base desires are among the strongest and _most enjoyable_ of all human experience!!!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I disagree with your premise of makes for "high quality" people. IMO, high quality people learn to embrace and enjoy their base animalistic desires, but in a safe and nondestructive manner. Some of those base desires are among the strongest and _most enjoyable_ of all human experience!!!


awesome. I don't.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Women don't usually want the details on their man's sexual history. They assume they slept with other women. They don't usually start asking questions about it so they can be judgy about it. And I've never heard of one asking if theirs was the tightest vagina they've ever had. I'm sure there have been some who asked if they were the prettiest, but none of my friends were that naive.


They may not ask those specific questions, but they do bring their own specific insecurities to the table and they do get just as judgemental as men. I've had several partners ask me about my past relationships and though they may not have judged me they DID judge the women I was with. I've even had some who suffered from retroactive jealousy, which happens to be a form of ocd not exclusive to men.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Depends on the question, though, right?
> 
> Q1. How do you feel about open relationships?
> Q2. Could you be gone tonight at 6:00 so I can screw the mailman?


 Yes the question is important. And so is the answer. Like why are we getting the mail so late?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Honey in my world that wouldn't even warrant a discussion at the water cooler LOL
> 
> I've had women come up and ask me if I'd be the backdoor man in a double penetration (declined) I've had women ask if I'd tie them up, clamp nipple clamps on their nipples and flog them. (declined) I've had women ask if I'd do MMF with male contact with her and her H (declined) I've had a woman offer me a BJ if she could get with my wife alone (declined)
> 
> ...


You were a swinger and all these questions were coming from other people, probably in the lifestyle too, and not from your wife. If you weren't in that life style and a female friend asked to give you a BJ in exchange for sex with your wife I think your reaction would be much different. She asked that question because she knew her audience. It wasn't an unreasonable question given your lifestyle. It wasn't out of character. If a female friend of ours asked me that, the friendship would end immediately. First and foremost I don't want anyone in my life that has the hots for my wife. Why would I stand for that person being around my wife when they know we are monogamous?. Second, I would tell my wife what happened and she would never want a woman around that was interested in giving me a BJ. Finally, neither one of us want friends that see sex as just a transactional event where you trade in sex acts. Does she think I'm my wife's fckin pump?!

Pimping made me think, in that BJ example, how would you have reacted if that woman asked, "can I get your wife alone if I give you $1,000?" Would that not bother you? You're okay with a person that thinks sex with your wife could be bought, even if payment is a BJ? 

There is value in these questions though. As others have said, it sheds some insight into a persons thinking. Take that theoretical example of a friend asking to give me a BJ for sex with my wife. If she hadn't asked I would never have known she had the hots for my wife and placed so little value (from my point of view) on sexual intimacy. I would rather know that so I can separate myself and my wife from someone that has values so far out of line from ours. Someone like that is toxic to our relationship and I don't want to risk poisoning it. The same can be true for a spouse.

You used divorce as an example. Just like her asking for a wife swap, her coming to me asking about divorce would solicit a similar, but slightly different response to asking about wife swapping. It would be one thing if we were having issues and lots of arguments, but if she came to me today when I can't remember the last real argument we had, we "date" regularly, great sex, etc. with a question about divorce I would know there is something serious going on. A million thoughts would rush through my mind, but I wouldn't be packing bags like I would with a detailed and specific question about swapping. We already talked and discussed that our marriage is monogamous, period. That is a hard boundary. 

Divorce on the other hand hasn't been discussed in the same manner. It is one thing to discuss things that could occur within the marriage, but we don't talk about how it would end. The goal is for it to never end. It also isn't as specific as asking to swap with a couple we are friends with. If she asked if I ever thought about divorce I would want to dig deeper and see where it leads before taking action. 

Quoting you: _"It means not being a jerk and not retaliating against those that are simply posing a question to gather information or find out your position." _ My wife asking, "what do you think about wife swapping and threesomes?" is a question to gather info and find my position. BTW, that question has already been asked, discussed, and answered by both of us. My wife asking, "what do you think about me setting up a wife swap with Richard and Jane?" is NOT a question to gather info and find my position. The difference is crystal clear to me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> I disagree with your premise of makes for "high quality" people. IMO, high quality people learn to embrace and enjoy their base animalistic desires, but in a safe and nondestructive manner.


I personally agree with this. 

I believe we are all creatures of the earth and have some basic drives and desires that aren't necessarily embraced by polite society. We all have those desires and those desires aren't really good or bad in and of themselves, it's how we deal with them that matters. 

Some people think that sheer will power and denial are the pillars of virtue and for which we should all aspire. 

I on the other hand think that acknowledging them, addressing them, discussing them and coming up with reasonable boundaries and parameters with risk management and risk mitigation as key criteria is better route FOR ME in the long run. 
Will power and denial will have their pros and cons. 

embracing those desires in controlled, metered doses will have it's pros and cons. 

For some people frank denial is the best option. 

For others, embracing in a controlled environment is the best option.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Really?
> 
> I thought that basically everyone occasionally thought about sex with someone other than their spouse, maybe even the hot guy next door who mows the lawn with his washboard abs and no shirt. Thoughts they generally keep to themselves in a loving monogamous relationship, but thoughts they had nonetheless.
> 
> Who hasn't heard of the celebrity hall pass? That one famous person who turns your crank so hard that your spouse would have to agree to allow a night of unfettered passion if the opportunity arose? It is of course just a game that everyone knows isn't reality - it is, in fact, more of a question as to who other than you turns on your spouse. In the context of this thread, it is a sideways question.


I was probably too general when I said how could she be thinking about sex with another man. I'm not trying to be the thought police for my wife. Yeah, my wife thinks Chris Hemsworth is hot and maybe she has fantasized about him ravishing her. That is a far cry from fantasizing about sex with our neighbors or swapping with the couple we hang with every weekend. And it is lightyears away from thinking about it so long and hard that she has discussed it with her friend and is now coming to me to make it come true.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

There is a deference between asking about a topic and asking to do a topic and I think it is a big difference in this discussion. I think good marriages would allow both spouses to ask each other their ideas on any topic, but that is different than asking your spouse to do something. I can not think of a topic that should lead to divorce just because your spouse asked you for your thoughts on it, but there are a lot of topic that could/should lead to divorce if you spouse asks to consider it. 
As an example: if your spouse asks; 'what are your thought on drug cartels?' This should lead to a discussion where both spouses can share their thoughts. 
On the other hand, if you spouse asks; 'would you consider joining this drug cartel to increase our income?' It would be prudent of the asked spouse to consider leaving the marriage.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I personally agree with this.
> 
> I believe we are all creatures of the earth and have some basic drives and desires that aren't necessarily embraced by polite society. We all have those desires and those desires aren't really good or bad in and of themselves, it's how we deal with them that matters.
> 
> ...


Allow me to be more clear:

If such animalistic desires can be done in a way that won't affect others or oneself in a harmful way, then have at it. 

Not everyone is going to live in the same headspace as what you do (as you've seen here in your thread). I'm still waiting on your answer as to why someone that doesn't agree with you is considered "chest thumping". I believe you use this term as an insult, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Can it not just be a difference of opinion?

I'm not against anyone living the lifestyle they choose. Your lifestyle would not jive with me. This doesn't mean I live in a world of denial. It means that it doesn't jive with me. I don't believe will power and denial are the pillars of virtue - but I do believe your lifestyle would cause serious issues with me and the people that I love. I certainly wouldn't say that would have the same effect on everyone. 

I fully agree with you that animalistic desires tug at everyone. Of course I could easily give into having sex with many women - but I won't. That would devastate my wife and children. I'm not game for hurting them in that way. Even if my wife was cool with me doing that, it would hurt me in a way that I would not be able to recover from. It would personally cause me to lose self worth. Sex would no longer be special. It would no longer be a special bond between my wife and I. It would just be an animalistic pleasure. That doesn't make me any better or any worse than anyone else on this planet. I'm just saying what would happen to ME personally. That's it. I know for a fact that giving into base animalistic desires would form a hole in my heart that could never be filled again. No matter how many sex partners I have, that hole would never be filled. In fact, the hole would become deeper.

Same thing for my wife. I have no desire to see her with another man. She would no longer be special to ME if she were to give herself to another man. That's it. No denial. No "virtue" here that everyone must follow. No right or wrong answer. This is just for ME. 

So if the consequences of living an animalistic desire life do not affect one's mental state in a negative way, then I think it is perfectly acceptable to live such a life. 

I'm starting to think you are implying that you are "correct" in your thought process of what is right and what is wrong. I find the world to be a little bit more grey. Instead of considering people who would leave their spouses for bringing up serious uncharacteristic questions as "chest thumping", why not accept the fact that some people are not willing to live with someone who is willing to go down a path that involves swinging, murdering, stealing, cheating, etc.?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You were a swinger and all these questions were coming from other people, probably in the lifestyle too, and not from your wife. If you weren't in that life style and a female friend asked to give you a BJ in exchange for sex with your wife I think your reaction would be much different. She asked that question because she knew her audience. It wasn't an unreasonable question given your lifestyle. It wasn't out of character. If a female friend of ours asked me that, the friendship would end immediately. First and foremost I don't want anyone in my life that has the hots for my wife. Why would I stand for that person being around my wife when they know we are monogamous?. Second, I would tell my wife what happened and she would never want a woman around that was interested in giving me a BJ. Finally, neither one of us want friends that see sex as just a transactional event where you trade in sex acts. Does she think I'm my wife's fckin pump?!
> 
> Pimping made me think, in that BJ example, how would you have reacted if that woman asked, "can I get your wife alone if I give you $1,000?" Would that not bother you? You're okay with a person that thinks sex with your wife could be bought, even if payment is a BJ?
> 
> ...


Even though the thread that I spun this off of dealt with a swinging situation (and since this is MY thread, I want to add that I believe the other thread was fake) and I have used some swinging examples in this thread myself, my questions are more about communication styles and the ability to have open and candid lines of communication and the emotional safety to pose questions and concepts rather than discussion about swinging or open marriage etc specifically. 

So to address your questions, yes the venue and the environment matters and in that environment those kinds of questions are not out of ordinary etc. 

Environment and context matters. If some weird, creepy guy approached us in a parking lot and offered $$ for my wife, I'd give him the option to about-face and run away or a trip to the hospital like any other husband would. 

But if some good friends approached us in a compassionate and respectful manner (which HAS HAPPENED) I would talk about it and see what their intentions and boundaries and goals etc were. And even if in the end the answer was no, I wouldn't be angered about it or feel threatened by it or have any ill will towards them. In fact I would be flattered that they were attracted to us and I would appreciate that they felt comfortable enough to approach us in a respectful and compassionate manner. I'd have a huge issue if they were trying to pull something behind my back without my knowledge and consent. 

Part of this is I have no trouble saying no and establishing boundaries. So I don't feel threatened. 

And if some does try to back door me and screw me over somehow behind my back - then I deal with that and go down that protocol and algorythm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I'm starting to think you are implying that you are "correct" in your thought process of what is right and what is wrong. I find the world to be a little bit more grey. Instead of considering people who would leave their spouses for bringing up serious uncharacteristic questions as "chest thumping", why not accept the fact that some people are not willing to live with someone who is willing to go down a path that involves swinging, murdering, stealing, cheating, etc.?


For everything there is a season (turn turn turn LOL) 

If a starving homeless person is begging for food on the street, it is reasonable to give him what's left of your sandwich you had for lunch and point him in the direction of the shelter and soup kitchen and social services etc. 

If he's breaking into your house in the middle of the night, it's reasonable to grab your shotgun. 

If you're getting ambushed and under threat of an immediate danger, you need to defend yourself.

If you're not under immediate threat, it's generally better to gain better understanding and see what's going on and what options can be considered. 

In terms of right and wrong. Let's just say in general I believe in seeking understanding and perspective and making mindful decisions rather than knee-jerk reactions because you find something concerning. 

Now that comes with the caveat of immediate threat. If the hungry grizzly bear is charging at you, you don't have the time to sit and discuss what his other food choices might be. 

But I am talking about big picture here. Is the world a better place if people knee-jerk react to things that concern them? Or seek better understanding and clarity and have mindful discussion on options, boundaries etc?

And how safe and approachable and open minded we are, impacts how people will address sensitive issues with us.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Standards are not "chest thumping."

There is a vast difference between being able to discuss anything at all and being able to say whatever you want with no consequences. 

My husband wouldn't ask about group sex because he doesn't want group sex. He's had it before, with other women, some of them his girlfriends. He told me early on when we were dating and one of his old f buddies (a girl) asked about me that we weren't that kind of relationship. So I don't expect this will come up.

If it did, what would determine my reaction would be the WAY he asked it. If he asked me if I ever fantasized about that kind of thing, we could talk about it, because it's just talk. But if he flat out said, I want to see you with another man, I said no and he kept badgering me and then named a specific person, time and place, he would get to see me with another man all right. He'd see me sitting across the table with my attorney as we signed our divorce papers. 

If I did that to him, and he didn't divorce me, I wouldn't respect him any more.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> For everything there is a season (turn turn turn LOL)
> 
> If a starving homeless person is begging for food on the street, it is reasonable to give him what's left of your sandwich you had for lunch and point him in the direction of the shelter and soup kitchen and social services etc.
> 
> ...


Ok, more good points and clarification.

thank you (and good discussion btw)

what do you consider a knee-jerk reaction?

you and I may differ on this definition. If my wife came to me with a swinger question and asked me what I thought about it, I would answer by saying “why do you ask? You already know what I think about this issue.”

then, I would go from there with more probing questions. I would definitely want to know if this is something she is considering, but regardless, I will be looking for answers outside of our discussion, no question. Being asked a serious question that she already knows the answer to is already going to cause me to search on my own as I would have trouble believing her answers. What is said here often? Trust but verify?

So there would be only one verbal discussion on this matter. No need for another. One, I don’t really trust her answers at this point as explained above. Secondly, any follow up discussions would most certainly convince me that she isn’t just asking questions out of curiosity but is asking questions to see if I would be willing to do it.

so my previous comments just skipped over other implied steps.

a discussion would happen along with follow up questions. Then some digging would occur. Dependent on what I find would guide me for the next course of action. This could be weeks. This could be months. If I find nothing, slowly over time I will believe her answers and maybe she was just sorta curious. No harm. No foul.

if I do find something, I will then plan an exit strategy dependent upon how damning the evidence is.

so, in my personal opinion, this is not a knee jerk reaction. A knee jerk reaction would be hearing the question and calling a lawyer the next morning. I think more information is needed before that step - I’m just assuming damning information is most likely coming in those following weeks/months of digging.

again, I’m of the opinion that if the question is being asked, they are considering it or possibly have already done it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Even though the thread that I spun this off of dealt with a swinging situation (and since this is MY thread, I want to add that I believe the other thread was fake) and I have used some swinging examples in this thread myself, my questions are more about communication styles and the ability to have open and candid lines of communication and the emotional safety to pose questions and concepts rather than discussion about swinging or open marriage etc specifically.
> 
> So to address your questions, yes the venue and the environment matters and in that environment those kinds of questions are not out of ordinary etc.
> 
> ...


Just like @LATERILUS79 has said, I think we are actually in agreement for the most part. Open communication is an absolute must for a good marriage IMO and a spouse should feel comfortable bringing up concerns and questions. What I think is creating the perceived differences in opinion is that we all have a very, very long history with our spouses. We know them very well and have nearly a lifetime of conversations already had. We each know what would be a fairly normal questions coming from our SO. You lived a decade of swinging, so questions in that realm don't feel out of place to you. I think it effects how you would react to friends' questions about it too. You and your wife went through the process of discussing it and I'm sure it was gradual, not just one day you came home and said hey honey lets get it on with the Smith's this weekend. Likewise, my wife and I have discussed monogamy and we know where we stand. After 30 years of being in agreement with something so fundamental to our marriage I would be dumbstruck by a question that so clearly flies in the face of that. 

I think sex is in a special class of its own. For many, including me, monogamy is the foundation of their marriage. We've discussed it and agree. Something that threatens what we have defined as the very core of our relationship is going to be reacted to unfavorably and aggressively. We have also discussed and agreed that we are going to live out the rest of lives in New York. However, where we live isn't a fundamental part of our marriage. We can do what we do anywhere. If my wife came to me today and said I really want to move to Florida. She knows I don't want to move, but since it doesn't threaten our relationship we will have an open discussion about it.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Just like @LATERILUS79 has said, I think we are actually in agreement for the most part. Open communication is an absolute must for a good marriage IMO and a spouse should feel comfortable bringing up concerns and questions. What I think is creating the perceived differences in opinion is that we all have a very, very long history with our spouses. We know them very well and have nearly a lifetime of conversations already had. We each know what would be a fairly normal questions coming from our SO. You lived a decade of swinging, so questions in that realm don't feel out of place to you. I think it effects how you would react to friends' questions about it too. You and your wife went through the process of discussing it and I'm sure it was gradual, not just one day you came home and said hey honey lets get it on with the Smith's this weekend. Likewise, my wife and I have discussed monogamy and we know where we stand. After 30 years of being in agreement with something so fundamental to our marriage I would be dumbstruck by a question that so clearly flies in the face of that.
> 
> I think sex is in a special class of its own. For many, including me, monogamy is the foundation of their marriage. We've discussed it and agree. Something that threatens what we have defined as the very core of our relationship is going to be reacted to unfavorably and aggressively. We have also discussed and agreed that we are going to live out the rest of lives in New York. However, where we live isn't a fundamental part of our marriage. We can do what we do anywhere. If my wife came to me today and said I really want to move to Florida. She knows I don't want to move, but since it doesn't threaten our relationship we will have an open discussion about it.


Lol. I can never find the words.

your argument is much better than mine. This is exactly what I was thinking.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> So guys who freaks out over a woman's past are usually fairly insecure, wouldn't you want to know that early on? I think the reason a lot of relationships breakdown eventually is the old "we grew apart" problem "we're not on the same wave length anymore". But a lot of times what is going on is you never really knew each other to begin with. Discussing anything and everything can avoid that problem.
> 
> No If a guy having a foot fetish would be a big problem for a woman then no I think it would be wise to ask that even out of thin air. But the problem with fetishes is they can develop on their own at any time, It's not like if you have a kink you know it your entire life.
> 
> IMO @oldshirt makes a good analogy with being a parent. You want to create a relationship where everyone feel comfortable to discuss anything. If someone feels safe to openly discuss anything they are less likely to hide things that could turn out to be a major issue down the road. I mean if you are going to spend your life with someone you're going to discover those things eventually, so you might as well learn as much as you possible can about each other early on.


As to your first question, Yes, and that is exactly what I said in my first post to this thread. I said I'd hope they would reveal that while dating so I could dump them instead of concealing it until marriage.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Benbutton said:


> They may not ask those specific questions, but they do bring their own specific insecurities to the table and they do get just as judgemental as men. I've had several partners ask me about my past relationships and though they may not have judged me they DID judge the women I was with. I've even had some who suffered from retroactive jealousy, which happens to be a form of ocd not exclusive to men.


Yes, women don't like you staring at other women and will always have their antennae up about the last girlfriend or the one that got away, which is why it's best to not talk too much about that.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Trust but verify is usually a good policy. However, I trust that my wife has my best interests at heart, as she has always demonstrated that she has for over 2 decades, so it's rare that I would feel a need to verify or question her motives in asking anything. I would much rather have open communication even about "threatening" topics than have either of us withhold something that could fester or lead to some action that would never occur if we'd been able to air the issue when it first arose.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think sex is in a special class of its own. For many, including me, monogamy is the foundation of their marriage. We've discussed it and agree. Something that threatens what we have defined as the very core of our relationship is going to be reacted to unfavorably and aggressively. We have also discussed and agreed that we are going to live out the rest of lives in New York. However, where we live isn't a fundamental part of our marriage. We can do what we do anywhere. If my wife came to me today and said I really want to move to Florida. She knows I don't want to move, but since it doesn't threaten our relationship we will have an open discussion about it.


I want to further emphasize this. Our history effects everything we do, think and feel in the present. I've never had sex with anyone other than my wife. I want to go to my grave that way and my wife knows it well. I've told her straight up. If she came to me with a question that she knows would lead to me giving up a desire so important to me I would be so heartbroken and devastated that I can't even accurately put it into words.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Bear with me a moment and let me give an example of a tale of two scenarios.

In scenario #1 I have drawn a line in the sand and no prisoners approach my partner and other men. I've made it clear there is a zero tolerance policy and if I ever catch wind of her liking or desiring or thinking about another man she is outta there, no ands or ifs or buts and I'm tossing her sht in the street and throwing in a match and then taking her to the cleaners in a divorce. 

Like I said, zero tolerance. First wind I get of it, I'm entering the launch codes. 

In scenario #2, I have established an environment of nonreactionary and nonretalitory communication and that anything can be brought up and discussed and there won't be any flying off the handle or retaliation etc. However there will be expectations of behaviour and boundaries and that actions and behaviours will have outcomes and consequences. 

So then lets say my wife falls for Sven From Yoga and wants to get with him. 

What do you think she will do in Scenario #1? 

I know a lot of people think that a zero tolerance policy will prevent certain outcomes and behaviours but I think we are all smart enough to know that is not always the case. Zero Tolerance will not always prevent someone for falling for Sven From Yoga. He just looks too good in those tight yoga pants LOL

Chances are I am going to come home to an empty house one day and everything is gone including my comfy Archie Bunker chair. Additionally she will probably already be moved in to Sven From Yoga's house and she will have already consulted a lawyer and they have already devised a plan on how to take ME to the cleaners in the divorce. 

In the mean time I am blindsided and have no idea any of this has been going on and I am completely behind the 8-ball trying to play catch up ball and trying to figure out how to get my comfy Archie Bunker Chair back. 

Now let's look at Scenario #2; I come home and all looks well but she has strange look on her face and gives me the classic, "we need to have a talk." We go to a quiet restaurant where no one will make a scene and she gives me the ILYBNILWY and that she has met someone else. She says she wants things to ammicable and cooperative with as little collateral damage to the kids and friends and family as possible. 

Now to be fair, I might offer MC or ask if there is anything that can be done to address our marriage, but realistically I would probably concede it time to start discussing the terms of divorce and how we will split assets and how this will effect the kids and what we would need to do to not disrupt their lives any more than possible. 

In terms of the marriage, both scenarios end in divorce so I understand that some things you just can't live with. I get it. 

But here's the big question - in which scenario am I most likely to keep my comfy Archie Bunker chair??


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Bear with me a moment and let me give an example of a tale of two scenarios.
> 
> But here's the big question - in which scenario am I most likely to keep my comfy Archie Bunker chair??


You're talking about two extremes. One is anything goes, the other is nothing goes. As is typically the case in life, the extreme doesn't represent reality most of the time. I don't see anyone advocating for "all or nothing."


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Bear with me a moment and let me give an example of a tale of two scenarios.
> 
> In scenario #1 I have drawn a line in the sand and no prisoners approach my partner and other men. I've made it clear there is a zero tolerance policy and if I ever catch wind of her liking or desiring or thinking about another man she is outta there, no ands or ifs or buts and I'm tossing her sht in the street and throwing in a match and then taking her to the cleaners in a divorce.
> 
> ...


You are assuming that cheaters are honest, communicative people. Most are not. 

What if the wife in your scenario wants her cake and to eat it too? It won't matter one iota how open, non-reactive, etc. her husband is if she knows he is against open marriages. She will still hide it.

Or maybe that's how her and the AP get their rocks off, by going behind your back. Or the wife is doing some sort of exit affair or trial exit affair. 

Either a spouse is okay with open marriages or they are not, and most of us know where our spouse falls.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Bear with me a moment and let me give an example of a tale of two scenarios.
> 
> In scenario #1 I have drawn a line in the sand and no prisoners approach my partner and other men. I've made it clear there is a zero tolerance policy and if I ever catch wind of her liking or desiring or thinking about another man she is outta there, no ands or ifs or buts and I'm tossing her sht in the street and throwing in a match and then taking her to the cleaners in a divorce.
> 
> ...


I don't want the Archie Bunker chair, it probably smells funny. 

I don't have a zero tolerance policy against infidelity to prevent my wife from having an affair. I have it so she knows I won't accept it and if she choses to do so anyway then I'm done.

I think your scenario #2 is fantasy.

If you had this great environment for communication your wife wouldn't have fallen for Sven, or you would have known something was up prior to her reaching the point of leaving him for you. She would have most assuredly been hiding things from you prior to that final discussion where she tells you she's fallen in love with Sven otherwise your great communication environment would have allowed it to come to light that she was falling for him. There shouldn't really be any other issues in the marriage because you talk so openly, right? Why would she want to leave you for Sven? On the other hand, if you have clear zero tolerance boundaries they know exactly what to expect and know the consequences if they chose to violate them. No matter how good communication is in your marriage there is nearly zero chance you will get a heads up about your wife wanting to get with Sven.

Flying off the handle to questions from your spouse about this and that on the regular is a bad idea and will make them want to stop communicating. Just because I think my wife asking me about a non-monogamous behavior she wants us to actually engage is the end of our marriage doesn't mean I'm flying of the handle day in and day out with every tough question she throws my way. We do have a very open communication environment and she knows she can ask me anything and can come to me with any problem. However, if she asked a question like this, that she KNOWS I've said time and again that I won't do it, there will be consequences and the question can't be un-asked. If she asked if I wanted to wife swap with Richard and Jane that means in her mind she already thinks it would be okay. She no longer has the same view on monogamy as me and we no longer appear to be compatible. Depending on how all this came about I may not just walk out, but we would need professional intervention and our marriage would officially be on the rocks and quite unlikely to be revived.


Bottom line is you can have great communication and freedom to speak your mind AND have clear zero tolerance boundaries at the same time.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you had this great environment for communication your wife wouldn't have fallen for Sven, or you would have known something was up prior to her reaching the point of leaving him for you. She would have most assuredly been hiding things from you prior to that final discussion where she tells you she's fallen in love with Sven otherwise your great communication environment would have allowed it to come to light that she was falling for him.


This is a good point. 

If your communication is so great, she would have told you right away that Sven was hot, on her mind, etc. 

It doesn't happen often but if someone else is on my wife's mind, she tells me. She knows I'm not going to like it and she knows my reaction could fall anywhere on the spectrum, but she tells me anyway. Regardless of if it was a fleeting thought or more of an all day thing. Sharing that info very quickly puts an end to those thoughts, there are no secrets, and it gives room to work on why it happened. She does the same even if a guy just checks her out or hits on her, which is more guilt than anything else. 

So in your scenario #2, the wife would have spoken up and it would have been nipped in the bud one way or the other. 

Unless like I said, she was a typical cheater who wanted what she wanted.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

I have to agree here with others. the two scenarios are too extreme. It doesn't sound like my experience with my wife at all. As BigDaddy mentioned earlier, we all have multi-year marriages/relationships where we've learned about our spouses tendencies over time. Any discussion is available and open at any time. Some subjects will be HIGHLY out of character - much like the example of swinging (for me) and murder (ummm.... every one of us). I think it might be difficult for you to see the level of seriousness of swinging due to the lifestyle you and your wife are comfortable with - but swinging questions would be just as serious as something as crazy as murder to me. 

So, your first scenario of being completely locked down, no tolerance, scorched earth at even the mere mention of a discussion - is that your definition of knee jerk reaction? If so, then we would agree on that point. I too find that to be a knee jerk reaction. I will need more information with follow up questions - but that doesn't mean I'm not on alert.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you had this great environment for communication your wife wouldn't have fallen for Sven, or you would have known something was up prior to her reaching the point of leaving him for you. She would have most assuredly been hiding things from you prior to that final discussion where she tells you she's fallen in love with Sven otherwise your great communication environment would have allowed it to come to light that she was falling for him. There shouldn't really be any other issues in the marriage because you talk so openly, right? Why would she want to leave you for Sven? On the other hand, if you have clear zero tolerance boundaries they know exactly what to expect and know the consequences if they chose to violate them.


I wish this was universally the case. But unfortunately we all know that you can do everything by the book and your partner can still fall for someone else or cheat or dump you or whatever anyway. 

Having a zero tolerance approach does not prevent bad behaviour or people falling for others. 

Neither does an open door policy and great communication. 

Some times it really is about salvaging the Archie Bunker chair.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I think it might be difficult for you to see the level of seriousness of swinging due to the lifestyle you and your wife are comfortable with - but swinging questions would be just as serious as something as crazy as murder to me.


This is a really important point, and needs to inform people's reception of @oldshirt's question. I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge about @oldshirt and his lifestyle specifically, but I do research alternative lifestyles. What us "normies" (makes me think of Homey da Clown, who declines to play dat) think of as "communication" is probably NOTHING next to the deep level of communication that has to take place when spouses have these alternative sexual lifestyles. The "safe space" in his marriage would be very different to the safe space in mine; my husband and I struggle with regular communication, I don't know if he has the empathy and I have the confidence to achieve the level of communication that @oldshirt views as normal. So the idea of a question or a statement being a deal breaker would certainly seem crazy to someone whose marriage depends on being able to communicate at a level of openness and vulnerability that would absolutely scare the pants off of me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a really important point, and needs to inform people's reception of @oldshirt's question. I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge about @oldshirt and his lifestyle specifically, but I do research alternative lifestyles. What us "normies" (makes me think of Homey da Clown, who declines to play dat) think of as "communication" is probably NOTHING next to the deep level of communication that has to take place when spouses have these alternative sexual lifestyles. The "safe space" in his marriage would be very different to the safe space in mine; my husband and I struggle with regular communication, I don't know if he has the empathy and I have the confidence to achieve the level of communication that @oldshirt views as normal. So the idea of a question or a statement being a deal breaker would certainly seem crazy to someone whose marriage depends on being able to communicate at a level of openness and vulnerability that would absolutely scare the pants off of me.


As per usual, I don't have the words to articulate my point. Lol. You said it 10 times better. 

Agreed. It is looking at the question from two different levels of comfort and openess. That is why I was attempting to "shock" old shirt by looking at something as insane as murder. Maybe that would be high up enough on the list to where he could see that normies put discussions about swinging in a very serious category. 


Double points for working in Homey da clown.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> As per usual, I don't have the words to articulate my point. Lol. You said it 10 times better.
> 
> Agreed. It is looking at the question from two different levels of comfort and openess. That is why I was attempting to "shock" old shirt by looking at something as insane as murder. Maybe that would be high up enough on the list to where he could see that normies put discussions about swinging in a very serious category.
> 
> ...


High praise indeed. Thank you. 😊


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a really important point, and needs to inform people's reception of @oldshirt's question. I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge about @oldshirt and his lifestyle specifically, but I do research alternative lifestyles. What us "normies" (makes me think of Homey da Clown, who declines to play dat) think of as "communication" is probably NOTHING next to the deep level of communication that has to take place when spouses have these alternative sexual lifestyles. The "safe space" in his marriage would be very different to the safe space in mine; my husband and I struggle with regular communication, I don't know if he has the empathy and I have the confidence to achieve the level of communication that @oldshirt views as normal. So the idea of a question or a statement being a deal breaker would certainly seem crazy to someone whose marriage depends on being able to communicate at a level of openness and vulnerability that would absolutely scare the pants off of me.


Probably a lot of truth to that. 

I do realize my world view and view of marriage and and sexuality etc is a lot different than the norm here. (My personal opinion is that much of societal “normal” is just a facade but that’s a whole other topic). 

But yes, I am not threatened by thoughts and ideas and questions and it seems crazy to me that just the mere mention of something would activate DEFCON 3.

Not only am I used to a high degree of communication on sensitive topics and not as threatened by the mention, I am also used to having solid boundaries and am not afraid to say no and not afraid to establish parameters and conditions. 

I’m not afraid to be asked sensitive questions because I am not afraid to say no and not afraid to establish my own boundaries and conditions. 

Some times I do forget the normie world that I left behind many years ago.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Probably a lot of truth to that.
> 
> I do realize my world view and view of marriage and and sexuality etc is a lot different than the norm here. (My personal opinion is that much of societal “normal” is just a facade but that’s a whole other topic).
> 
> ...


You presumably married someone who like you isn't too bothered about faithfulness. 
Most of us here married a person who believes like us that faithfulness is vital in a committed and respectful marriage. 
That adultery is a very serious and damaging thing to do. 

So of course you are not going to be troubled by your spouse bringing up say swinging or wife swapping. 
That's why you can't possibly understand anyone being upset or troubled by their spouse suddenly suggesting that one or both have sex with others. You can't understand that wanting to cheat is almost as bad as actually cheating. That destroying the love and respect and faithful intimacy would shake the marriage to the core.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Probably a lot of truth to that.
> 
> I do realize my world view and view of marriage and and sexuality etc is a lot different than the norm here. (My personal opinion is that much of societal “normal” is just a facade but that’s a whole other topic).
> 
> ...


Your word choice implies that people who don’t see things your way as “less than” or definitely “unenlightened”, yet you claim to want to have an open discussion here to see why people would be uncomfortable with the mention of swinging from their spouse.

when you use the words you do, you are going to get defensive answers as opposed to the open discussion you claim to seek.

let’s flip this around and see what you think:

I could easily say you are “threatened” by having a deep, emotional connection with your wife. Why? Because you no longer looked at sex as something meaningful. You traded in an emotional connection for having multiple partners. Now sex is no longer special since you and your wife have shared yourselves with many others while also still being in a relationship.


what I just said above is asinine to say. I don’t know you. I don’t know your relationship with your wife. For all I know, you have found a path to a deeper emotional connection - but can you now understand that it is complete crap to question other peoples methods of their relationship in the way that you are doing it? You imply we are all stupid for not seeing your enlightened method. I really don’t care if you come back and say, “hey! I wasn't implying that at all! You are just insecure!”. To that I’d say, “I don’t believe you and I think in a backhanded way, that is EXACTLY what you are trying to do.”

I’ll leave my post with this:
My human body absolutely wants to have sex with many women I pass by on the street on a daily basis. I’m sure my wife’s body urges her to have sex with other attractive men, but we don’t do it because it would absolutely destroy the emotional connection that we both have. Giving into base animalistic desires feels great. I am positive of this - but for many people, including myself, that feeling would be fleeting. It would be gone in a flash and I would be left with a massive hole in my heart that could never again be filled. How you get around this is beyond me - but I’m not going to arrogantly say that it can’t be done. I can only say that I can’t do it, and I know the majority of the population can’t do it. But peoples lifestyles are different. What works for others may or may not work for me.

so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that you are looking for a backhanded way to tell people you are enlightened with your lifestyle and traditional people are stupid or left behind.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that you are looking for a backhanded way to tell people you are enlightened with your lifestyle and traditional people are stupid or left behind.


Once again we are on the same page. He’s clearly contemptuous of the philistines who mix emotion and sex. He believes that his BFF/f buddy relationship he has is better than our outdated, provincial and pathetic “committed” relationships.

I’m too old to apologize for who I am. Took me a long time to get here. I tried meaningless sex when I was younger and hashing through all my issues from abuse. I learned the hard way that I can’t separate the act from the feeling. I’m also no one’s plan B. If you’re only having sex with me because no one else is available, frankly, I don’t need that. I’d rather be alone than be someone’s consolation prize.

FWIW, I have a very close friend who is in this lifestyle. She doesn't know that I know; as a matter of fact, when mutual friends find out, she tells them not to tell me (I found that out from another friend she told her friends not to tell, not great secret keepers, those folks) or my husband because she doesn't want US to think less of HER. I don't think less of her; people are different. They've been married longer than any of us, they have careers and two happy, healthy, well-adjusted kids, they're killing it at life. Whatever works, they don't ask us to participate (except a couple of times when one or the other will drink too much and flirt with me or my husband). Everyone has their stuff, and we do what's best for us. They would NEVER look down on other people for their sexual choices. Neither, honestly, do I.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Probably a lot of truth to that.
> 
> I do realize my world view and view of marriage and and sexuality etc is a lot different than the norm here. (My personal opinion is that much of societal “normal” is just a facade but that’s a whole other topic).
> 
> ...


Are you seriously saying if your wife came to you today and said; 'Lets kidnap the neighbors kid and sale them into the human trafficking black market'. Your response would be; Ho-Hum, just another day in oldshirt's marriage?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

leftfield said:


> Are you seriously saying if your wife came to you today and said; 'Lets kidnap the neighbors kid and sale them into the human trafficking black market'. Your response would be; Ho-Hum, just another day in oldshirt's marriage?


That's both a ridiculously offensive and stupid analogy. Being open to discussions on wide ranging questions and ideas is *not* the same as entertaining unethical and harmful ideas. When these discussions are about_ sex and relationships _(the main focus in this thread, IMO), oldshirt, others, and I are only talking about a rational, compassionate, and _ethical_ approach to what some fine to be difficult or controversial questions. I am confident that _proposals_ of illegal and harmful acts are well outside the bounds of this topic.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> That's both a ridiculously offensive and stupid analogy. Being open to discussions on wide ranging questions and ideas is *not* the same as entertaining unethical and harmful ideas. When these discussions are about_ sex and relationships _(the main focus in this thread, IMO), oldshirt, others, and I are only talking about a rational, compassionate, and _ethical_ approach to what some fine to be difficult or controversial questions. I am confident that _proposals_ of illegal and harmful acts are well outside the bounds of this topic.


The title of this thread disagrees with you.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Your word choice implies that people who don’t see things your way as “less than” or definitely “unenlightened”, yet you claim to want to have an open discussion here to see why people would be uncomfortable with the mention of swinging from their spouse.
> 
> when you use the words you do, you are going to get defensive answers as opposed to the open discussion you claim to seek.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. 100%. I would also like to add a few points. I think most people, praise God, are virtuous to large degree and recognize some universal truths and you don't need the Bible to tell you. The first is that actions have consequences. And words have power. I want my children to know that they can come to me with anything and that, whatever my response, it will always be full of love and compassion and the desire to do right by them. And doing right by them may be verbalizing a harsh truth. It may put them in a bad position but it is still the right thing to do. For instance if my son stole something from his friend. He might feel guilty and not know how to handle it. He might get in trouble if he told me but maybe he can convince me not to punish him and still assuage his guilt or even condone it because his friend punched him the day before. He might entertain himself with these delusions that I won't react badly. But ultimately, because I am his Mom, he knows what my real reaction will be. If he tells me ANYWAY that is the proof that I have created an open safe environment. But if I have done my job my son would not entertain the idea of stealing anyway so the point is moot.

So being clear an open safe communication style does not mean that the person speaking is safe from the consequences if their words.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

What you fail to recognize is that your opinion is only such, no more or less than any other couple. You are condescending in your last post to people who aren't able to 'grasp' the supposed higher level of communication and sexual liberty that your wife and yourself have adapted in your marriage.
The whole of your position is thrown off by your lack of tolerance for other person's boundaries and expectations within their relationship. The crux of your post is tolerance...both within the relationship and of others but you pontificate that your way is the best way and any person(s) who disagree must be full of self-doubt, insecurity and unenlightened. Hypocrisy much? 

Communication is essential in any relationship, as is trust. People who settle down with a partner for years usually understand each others parameters. To say that all things must be on the table at all times or there is something wrong with a couples' intimacy is grossly misinterpreting and undervaluing the compatibility of their relationship. 
A person should assume that people in a relationship are on the same page, are compatible and are content with their shared sexual preferences. 

Insinuating that there is something 'wrong' with people who don't couple the same as you is ignorant, to say the least, but certainly intolerant, judgey and arrogant.
Aren't you the same poster on another forum that banged on and on about a woman's shelf life?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> That's both a ridiculously offensive and stupid analogy. Being open to discussions on wide ranging questions and ideas is *not* the same as entertaining unethical and harmful ideas. When these discussions are about_ sex and relationships _(the main focus in this thread, IMO), oldshirt, others, and I are only talking about a rational, compassionate, and _ethical_ approach to what some fine to be difficult or controversial questions. I am confident that _proposals_ of illegal and harmful acts are well outside the bounds of this topic.


For many, me included, I consider sex with someone other than your spouse to be unethical and harmful. I believe you are another person that is in an open marriage, so again, you see sex and what it means in a marriage a lot differently than I do. I realize infidelity isn't the same as murder and kidnapping a person. However, to me, it would murder my marriage, so yeah, I think it is unethical and harmful.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LoL. you all have vocabularies that dwarf mine. I wish I could get my points across the same way.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> LoL. you all have vocabularies that dwarf mine. I wish I could get my points across the same way.


It's called lexicon...


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> For many, me included, I consider sex with someone other than your spouse to be unethical and harmful. I believe you are another person that is in an open marriage, so again, you see sex and what it mean in a marriage a lot differently than I do. I realize infidelity infidelity isn't the same as murder and kidnapping a person. However, to me, it would murder my marriage, so yeah, I think it is unethical and harmful.


I agree. While we are on the subject how we communicate with our kids was brought up as an example. Technically parent/child interactions are wildly different than romantic ones. The door wss already opened. Can't blame people for stepping through it


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I used this and the wife swapping thread as an opportunity to talk to my wife about this topic, again. Yes, we have very open communication! That is in spite of my hard line in the sand. We talked about monogamy, wife swapping, sexual intimacy, etc. all in an open and judgement free way. My wife said she can't say in all honesty that she hasn't thought about sex with another man, it is human nature and I expected nothing else. I know I would be lying if I said I hadn't. She also blows off those thoughts as nothing more than that, fleeting thoughts that will never be acted on. She is comfortable talking about this, in this context. We are very comfortable talking. However, it would be very weird for me and very out of character for her suddenly come to me and say, "you know, earlier today I was thinking about what sex would be like with..." That means it is going well beyond the fleeting thought if she has been ruminating about it long enough to say something to me. That would concern me. 

In the end we both reaffirmed our position that there won't be anyone else pulled into out intimate and cherished sex life.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Your word choice implies that people who don’t see things your way as “less than” or definitely “unenlightened”, yet you claim to want to have an open discussion here to see why people would be uncomfortable with the mention of swinging from their spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Things are getting a little carried away here, I have neither said nor implied such things. 

My wife and I had a completely traditional marriage for for the first 10 years and have been out of that lifestyle for the handful of years. I am no stranger to normal, marital life.

And in regards to any feelings of superiority, let’s keep in mind it was not the “Normies” (y’all’s word not mine) that weren’t burned at the stake or publicly disemboweled, and that as recent as the several decades there were women that were committed to mental institutions for “Nymphomania) because they had sex with men while not married. Lesbians were also institutionalized and gay men were subject to criminal arrest and sent to jail. 

My point is that it is that if anyone has the sense of superiority and enlightenment and moral superiority, it is the normies. 

Now to at least attempt to try to tie this back into a discussion about communication and such, do I think that those in alternative lifestyles as a trend tend to have more emphasis on communication styles and skills - in my OPINION, yes they often do BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO. 

A traditional couple has but one rule when it comes to sexuality - “don’t do it with anyone else.” (I know there’s more to it than that, but its to make a point)

Somebody that doesn’t completely fit into the traditional mold HAS to develop their communication skills and boundaries etc to keep from feeling the wrath of society narrative and even for their own physical safety and some times even their very lives. 

So before you get too high and mighty and pointing fingers at someone different than you, realize that by necessity they have had to develop different communication paradigms and the stakes on their communication skill is a lot higher.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> LoL. you all have vocabularies that dwarf mine. I wish I could get my points across the same way.


The result of a classic liberal education.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> are getting a little carried away here, I have neither said nor implied such things.


Oh, come on. You have started many of these "open discussion" threads and its clearly your way or the highway. You just want to argue with people that you are right.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh nonono, let's not even go there. The whole narrative was based upon spouses already in a committed relationship with already tacitly agreed upon groundrules!

Presumably your "traditional" marriage moved to an " untraditional marriage" and that your great communication style made this possible. This is not true. Your marriage was already untraditional, you just covered it up.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Yep. Now I’m convinced you think you are better. I’ve gotten that feeling with posts from you on a few occasions, but your latest post definitely gives me that vibe.

You do you. It won’t work for me. I am unable to see how a strong emotional connection can be made when you and your wife continually share yourselves with others, but I don’t know. Maybe you can.

your arguments falter in my opinion as you continually try to convince others you’ve reached the next level of enlightenment. Sorry, I don’t see that level nor do I believe it exists.

Maybe you don’t wish to have a deep emotional connection? I also understand why people would be that way. No judgement. I see nothing wrong with that. I can’t remember who said it here but someone said something along the lines as “swingers use these rules where they share their spouses Monday through Friday then say that others don’t have the connection they have Saturday and Sunday.”

yeah, I kinda see that too. I fail to see how a strong connection can be made with a person when you show up to a house as a couple, but then go into different rooms with different people. How is that strong connection working out when one spouse is deep inside another woman while the other riding on top of some other guy? Does specialness still matter? If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. No judgement here. I just don’t see how folks can do this, but that’s just me and I think everyone should
Live as they choose.

I belong to my wife. I promised her this. She belongs to me. She also promised. I value loyalty above just about everything else. I certainly understand that not everyone will value loyalty and that is ok. I am not someone that is cool with “she or he was never my wife or husband. It was just my turn.” No thanks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I used this and the wife swapping thread as an opportunity to talk to my wife about this topic, again. Yes, we have very open communication! That is in spite of my hard line in the sand. We talked about monogamy, wife swapping, sexual intimacy, etc. all in an open and judgement free way. My wife said she can't say in all honesty that she hasn't thought about sex with another man, it is human nature and I expected nothing else. I know I would be lying if I said I hadn't. She also blows off those thoughts as nothing more than that, fleeting thoughts that will never be acted on. She is comfortable talking about this, in this context. We are very comfortable talking. However, it would be very weird for me and very out of character for her suddenly come to me and say, "you know, earlier today I was thinking about what sex would be like with..." That means it is going well beyond the fleeting thought if she has been ruminating about it long enough to say something to me. That would concern me.
> 
> In the end we both reaffirmed our position that there won't be anyone else pulled into out intimate and cherished sex life.


Thanks for adding this to the discussion.

This sounds very appropriate and healthy to me.

This sounds very appropriate and beneficial. Not only was it not threatening or angering to you, but it gave you a chance to reaffirm your expectations and boundaries.

People really do need to do that periodically as we live long lives and things can change and shift over the years. It’s good even if for no reason than to reaffirm what has already been established. 

Kinda like when couples renew their vows.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Erudite said:


> Presumably your "traditional" marriage moved to an " untraditional marriage" and that your great communication style made this possible. This is not true. Your marriage was already untraditional, you just covered it up.


If that’s the case, then it’s all just a facade and cover up like everyone else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yep. Now I’m convinced you think you are better. I’ve gotten that feeling with posts from you on a few occasions, but your latest post definitely gives me that vibe.
> 
> You do you. It won’t work for me. I am unable to see how a strong emotional connection can be made when you and your wife continually share yourselves with others, but I don’t know. Maybe you can.
> 
> ...


The reason we will have to agree to disagree on the superiority issue is I see you looking down on me that I am somehow bad or lacking or less than and that I am somehow less committed and connected etc. 

I accept your choice to live a completely traditional and monogamous life and do not criticize or fault you for that nor do I think you are a lesser person because.

Can you honestly, truly in your heart of hearts say that about me and my lifestyle choices?


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Things are getting a little carried away here, I have neither said nor implied such things.
> 
> My point is that it is that if anyone has the sense of superiority and enlightenment and moral superiority, it is the normies.
> 
> Now to at least attempt to try to tie this back into a discussion about communication and such, do I think that those in alternative lifestyles as a trend tend to have more emphasis on communication styles and skills - in my OPINION, yes they often do *BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO*.


I disagree. I think people in general have become very tolerant of other people's sexual preferences. There is much talk about small people in small bubbles, but dangit, lots of people in places all over the world are not bothered, live and let live. 
Bolded is an assumption on your part, not a fact. You have no idea outside of forums (where people post when they are unhappy) and your circle of friends/family how much monogamous/heterosexual couples communicate with each other or how much intimacy they have. 
Your marriage is yours. The complexities, negotiations and trust are unique for yourselves. What the heck with demeaning intimacy for strangers? 
You will have us assume that your marriage is content with the decisions that you have made as a couple but will not extend the same grace to others?
Why don't we agree that we keep our noses out of each other's bedrooms.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If that’s the case, then it’s all just a facade and cover up like everyone else.


See when you say this, it sounds like you think everyone really wants your lifestyle and maybe you think they’re just not as smart or brave as you.

That may not be what you meant. Believe it or not I’m trying to help 🤪. That is the impression I got from your statement, so maybe there’s a different way to say what you mean.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> The reason we will have to agree to disagree on the superiority issue is I see you looking down on me that I am somehow bad or lacking or less than and that I am somehow less committed and connected etc.
> 
> I accept your choice to live a completely traditional and monogamous life and do not criticize or fault you for that nor do I think you are a lesser person because.
> 
> Can you honestly, truly in your heart of hearts say that about me and my lifestyle choices?


That’s the problem. You’ve attempted to flip my argument on me. It’s not me that looked down upon you. It’s not me that judged your life choices. This is where you have not truly read the responses here. No one looked down on your life choices. Instead, you are the one that said traditional marriages jump the gun, go to defcon 3, are threatened by your life style. Then you throw in that you are the one that has the high level of communication which implies a traditional marriage does not. Is is highly condescending and you know it and you meant it to be that way. You asked for honesty. I give it to you at the end of my post. How about some honesty in return. You meant to be condescending with your comments that traditional marriage folks can’t be as enlightened as you or at the same high level of communication. I strongly believe this with no question after reviewing your posts. I don’t see you looking for understanding of other peoples views, I see you trying to show others that you are “right”.

trying to convince me that your way of life now is not accepted is a joke. Please. Your way of life and thought process is so freakin’ accepted now that I would be canceled if I dared to say what you do is wrong. You also know this so that argument was extremely weak. People that live my lifestyle? It is getting harder and harder to find places for me to move to in order to get away from the “progressives”. And yes, I put that in quotes because I honestly don’t think progressives are all that good at progress. Do I think the progressives are less than me? Nope. Do I care how they live? Nope. You do you. I’ve stated this over and over.

now, as to your question of “can you say in your heart of hearts about me?”. Ok. Let me be completely honest with you.

I don’t have all the answers. I have my life experiences, I study and I observe. I think what I think is right - but I don’t think what is right for me is right for others, but I’ll never say that I am at some higher level of enlightenment or communication because I think that I am right. That’s what you do and you’ve said as much or at a minimum implied it.

let Me expand on this. I can honestly say I would never be friends with someone like you in real life. I would be civil. I would be cordial. I would be respectful. My life is no more important than yours and I truly mean that. I am a strong believer in the pursuit of life Liberty and happiness for everyone. I could work with you. I could objectively say things like “old shirt is dedicated to his work and does a great job. From what I can tell, he appears to be a great father and it appears that his wife and kids love him”. But a relationship beyond that? I can’t do it. Your life style is something that I am strongly against, BUT I don’t have all the answers. Just because I personally do not believe it is possible to make a strong emotional connection with another human being who is being shared among others doesn’t mean I know that to be 100% true. I’ve already said this to you once. For all I know, you are very capable of doing this. If you can, that is great. I don’t ever want to attempt to find out if I can do it or not. Look at what happens to people that make the mistake of opening things up and then regretting it. I don’t want that regret. Clearly, some people are very capable of doing this and it works. You are living proof, but we all know most people cannot do this and stay emotionally healthy. 

i accept you. I do not fault you. Your life choices are fine by me - but I also don’t want to be around you nor would I want my children to view what you do. That is my honest opinion. I want to be left alone (in real life, all is fair on TAM) to live my life as I see fit and live around other like minded people. My experience in life is much different. Much like this thread, people like yourself go on crusades (from my perspective) in an attempt to show me just how right their progressive lives are as opposed to saying “you like to do this. Here is another option. If you don’t care for this option, cool.” And just leave it at that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

@LATERILUS79: To be fair, I'm actually the one who said that his communication in his marriage was on a different level because of his lifestyle. He didn't initially say that about himself, I did. He agreed with it, sure, and expounded on his superiority in that and all other regards, but I am the one who brought it up. Not to interrupt, and I agree with most of what you're saying, but that part is on me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @LATERILUS79: To be fair, I'm actually the one who said that his communication in his marriage was on a different level because of his lifestyle. He didn't initially say that about himself, I did. He agreed with it, sure, and expounded on his superiority in that and all other regards, but I am the one who brought it up. Not to interrupt, and I agree with most of what you're saying, but that part is on me.


This is fair. 

I do not have time to read through all the posts again, but I'll take your word for it that it progressed from your statement.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> And in regards to any feelings of superiority, let’s keep in mind it was not the “Normies” (y’all’s word not mine) that weren’t burned at the stake or publicly disemboweled, and that as recent as the several decades there were women that were committed to mental institutions for “Nymphomania) because they had sex with men while not married. Lesbians were also institutionalized and gay men were subject to criminal arrest and sent to jail.


I'm 69, and that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime, though all types of abuse happen in third-world countries with bad leadership. 

There was also a time when men died of syphillis if they roamed sexually. But you and I weren't born in the 1700s, FFS! Or at least if we were, not in this same body.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> That's both a ridiculously offensive and stupid analogy. Being open to discussions on wide ranging questions and ideas is *not* the same as entertaining unethical and harmful ideas. When these discussions are about_ sex and relationships _(the main focus in this thread, IMO), oldshirt, others, and I are only talking about a rational, compassionate, and _ethical_ approach to what some fine to be difficult or controversial questions. I am confident that _proposals_ of illegal and harmful acts are well outside the bounds of this topic.


For most married couples proposing adultery IS an unethical and harmful idea. Very harmful.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> That’s the problem. You’ve attempted to flip my argument on me. It’s not me that looked down upon you. It’s not me that judged your life choices. This is where you have not truly read the responses here. No one looked down on your life choices. Instead, you are the one that said traditional marriages jump the gun, go to defcon 3, are threatened by your life style. Then you throw in that you are the one that has the high level of communication which implies a traditional marriage does not. Is is highly condescending and you know it and you meant it to be that way. You asked for honesty. I give it to you at the end of my post. How about some honesty in return. You meant to be condescending with your comments that traditional marriage folks can’t be as enlightened as you or at the same high level of communication. I strongly believe this with no question after reviewing your posts. I don’t see you looking for understanding of other peoples views, I see you trying to show others that you are “right”.
> 
> trying to convince me that your way of life now is not accepted is a joke. Please. Your way of life and thought process is so freakin’ accepted now that I would be canceled if I dared to say what you do is wrong. You also know this so that argument was extremely weak. People that live my lifestyle? It is getting harder and harder to find places for me to move to in order to get away from the “progressives”. And yes, I put that in quotes because I honestly don’t think progressives are all that good at progress. Do I think the progressives are less than me? Nope. Do I care how they live? Nope. You do you. I’ve stated this over and over.
> 
> ...


Well there really is a first for everything. This is the first time in my life anyone would’ve ever thought of this Harley ride’n, Carhartt wear’n, hunt’n/fish’n, shaved headed, Midwest farm boy a “Progressive.” 

The truth is, in my real life I am considered quite conservative and at times even an old fuddy duddy.

What I really disagree with above is that I believe you and I would be friends. 

You’re introspective, intelligent, well spoken, you’re not afraid to say it like you see it, but you are still respectful and what you say has fact and observation to back it up. 

Here is where there is a difference between TAM and real life - No one in my real life has a clue what has gone on behind closed doors. 

If you knew me in real life, you’d probably think I was a vigin on my wedding night and that my wife was the only woman I’ve ever touched. I’m quite nerdy and just another average Joe face in the crowd. 

My wife is a sweet, innocent looking and acting, church girl type. 

My own best friends and closest relatives would never suspect either of us of ever dreaming of such a thing. 

And most of the people we have encountered in the lifestyle look and act just like us in normal, daily life ...... until behind closed doors.

You would never know because I would never tell you and there would be no outside clues or signs of what has gone on in my bedroom. 

I have an online persona here, that is nothing like my daily life persona. 

I assume others are much the same although in other ways in other areas. 

But getting back to the subject at hand - I hear your message. I’m going to need to sit and think about this for awhile. 

While I do want to share my experiences and perspectives in hopes that it can assist others on their journey, as we are all here to heal and find help in our struggles. 

I also come here as a student. And sometimes I need to remind myself of that. 

I shall take this all in and do some personal reflection.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

FFS, I need to get back to work, but this is too damn interesting. 



oldshirt said:


> Well there really is a first for everything. This is the first time in my life anyone would’ve ever thought of this Harley ride’n, Carhartt wear’n, hunt’n/fish’n, shaved headed, Midwest farm boy a “Progressive.”
> 
> The truth is, in my real life I am considered quite conservative and at times even an old fuddy duddy.
> 
> ...


The moment I wrote it..... I just knew this coming. I just knew it. 

This idiot here (the idiot being me) only recently learned after 42 years of life that no one knows anything. This is hidden from all and is a secret life - even from adult children. Secret from co-workers, under aged children and adult family members? I get it. I honestly very much do. 

Best friends and adult children? This I don't get. It makes me wonder why. I have very few friends and I prefer it that way. Some people have a lot of friends. I personally cannot do that. If I chose this lifestyle, I would tell my best friends because they should know everything about me and why I do what I do. To me, this is very important. 

Same thing goes for adult children. I think they should know what their parents are like. How they live their lives as adults. Why? Because they are the ones raising them. The whole point is to pass along your own personal values to the next generation. 

I am curious if you agree with me; the idea (the goal) behind being a parent is to impart your own personal values unto your children so that they grow up to be adults. The kind of adults that you believe would make a positive impact on themselves and others around them. Raising them to be adults to form positive and healthy relationships with others and a positive and healthy romantic relationship. For example, I make sure my kids (especially my daughter) sees the way I treat their mother. They need to see that I treat their mother with the utmost respect. That I love her. That I cherish her. They see me hug and kiss her all the time. They hear me tell her that she is beautiful and the only one for me. I want my boy to see this is how a man respects his wife. For my daughter, I want her to see this is the type of man you should look for in a lifetime partner. 

Can someone do this in an open relationship? Absolutely. I don't see why not (except for the part where I say my wife is the only one for me. In the case of an open relationship, that is objectively not true). But at the same time, is it possible to teach them that marriage is meant for life between two people? I say it this way because I'm completely game for gay people getting married. Hey, everyone is in this. Everyone can pursue life, liberty and happiness. How is marriage taught to adult children who fully understand what an open marriage means? At that point, why hide it? What is the reasoning behind it? Is it because you wouldn't want your adult children to do the same thing as yourself? Are there possible regrets? I don't know. I am saying that as a non-judgemental question because I honestly don't know. I don't have the slightest clue and just thinking about it is causing a mind-F to happen in my brain - so I bring it back to my default setting. The people that mean the absolute most to me in my life, the ones that I love the most, should know who I am and why I am the way I am. 




At the same time, I need to throw you a bone here. 


I get the "pull" of the lifestyle you chose. Absolutely. No question. I am a human being after all. In addition, I am very high sex drive man. I want it ALL the time. The female form is glorious. It is beautiful. Yes, the human animal in me would very much want to see what it feels like to give into all those urges. I would never lie and say otherwise. That is ridiculous. At the same token, I'm positive my wife feels the same way. I know she thinks about what it would be like to be with other men. I would question her humanity if she didn't!

But unlike all the other animals, we can make choices - and I don't know what choice is the correct one for everyone here. I just know what the correct choice is for me. My emotional connection to my wife is rooted in our sexual connection. If it wasn't, then there is no reason for me to be married. I have no problems with anyone that wants to sleep with as many people as they want. Like I said, I get that animalistic urge. 

The cost. The cost is far too great. If I were to decide to share my wife and she shared me, there's no going back. It's done. Over. My emotional connection is broken. Especially for me since I chose to be a one and only with my wife. Now another woman would know what it feels like to be with me. My special connection to my wife is lost. Would I enjoy the physical animalistic feeling of being with another woman? Does a bear shyt in the woods? Hell yes I would!!!!! Then the post nut clarity kicks in. Then the hole in heart starts to grow. Then I don't feel like myself. Then the next time I am intimate with my wife, it doesn't feel the same. It turns too much into a physical feeling and not the emotional bond that we created together. I know what would happen. She would compare what I physically feel like to other men and I would compare what she feels like to other women. Then we would become roommates. Then I wouldn't know how to properly raise my kids. I'd be lost and I would most likely become depressed - yes, I do think about A LOT of things all the time. I know how this plays out. I would just never think that I know how it plays out for everyone else. 

So yeah, the getting the pleasure of the physical feeling from other women at the cost of my personal, special emotional bond with my wife. For me, not equal.



Because those two things are not equal, I cannot field open marriage questions from my wife without immediately throwing the red flag. I would expect her to immediately think the same of me if I chose to bring this subject up to her. I will have the discussion. I will ask follow up questions - but there is no going back. Open marriage is far too serious of an issue to my personal values. I would accept the questions to come in. I would actually welcome it. I'd rather know if I need to make an exit strategy or stay. It would raise my skepticism and it would take some time for that skepticism to wane. I would need time to know for sure that either my wife was talking in a way where she's just curious or if she was serious about my thoughts and if we should keep talking about it or possibly move towards trying it out.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> For most married couples proposing adultery IS an unethical and harmful idea. Very harmful.


I did NOT say anything about proposing adultery, only about being able to ask and discuss the topic. But yes, for most married couples this would not be a viable discussion if there was a _proposal to do so_ involved.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I did NOT say anything about proposing adultery, only about being able to ask and discuss the topic. But yes, for most married couples this would not be a viable discussion if there was a _proposal to do so_ involved.


Nothing wrong with talking about any subject under the sun.
Completely different from the man who decided after 50 years of marriage to suggest to his wife that they both have sex with another couple. It's wrecked his peace and damaged the later years of his marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@LATERILUS79 

Your last msg has a lot material. The one thing I can immediately address is WHY we don’t tell anybody. 

You have already answered that when you said we could not be friends. You said you wouldn’t let your kids be around me which by extension means you wouldn’t let your kids be friends with or play with my kids. .

...... all because of what I legally do with other consenting adults in the privacy of my own bedroom.

But it doesn’t stop there. People have lost their jobs because word got out. 

People have been kicked out of the churches and civic organizations.

People have lost close friends and been disowned by families. 

Would you be comfortable with me anywhere around your wife or would you assume I would try to get in her knickers?

Would your wife want my wife, who is beautiful and former model and padgeant contestant around you? 

And here’s another thing you may not have considered, but I wouldn’t want you to know of our bedroom activities because I would assume that YOU would try to hit on my wife and assume she’d get hop into bed with you the second no one was looking. 

You read that right, I wouldn’t trust YOU with that information because there are so many myths and misperceptions about swinging that many people would assume we screw everyone who asks. 

And these aren’t things that took place in the Middle Ages. These are things that happen NOW. 

Swinging is the last legal taboo. Homosexuals have fought a long hard battle and have endured much persecution and prejudice, but they now have more acceptance and inclusion than swingers.

Would you have publicaly stated in a public forum that you couldn’t be friends with and wouldn’t let your kids around a gay man? 

Would the mods have given you a slap for that? But yet it’s perfectly acceptable and cheered by others to say that to a swinger..... and not even a current swinger at that. 

I’m not try to lecture you because I know you already get it. 

I’m saying it to reiterate what I said earlier in that I have HAD to watch my back and pick my battles and establish boundaries and pay special attention to communication. 

To not do so can be disastrous.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

No topic or question is off limits for a married couple. We have and will continue to ask each other anything, talk about anything. I mean, if you can't do that with your spouse, why are you married to each other?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> @LATERILUS79
> 
> Your last msg has a lot material. The one thing I can immediately address is WHY we don’t tell anybody.
> 
> ...


Its not surprising that people who are committing adultery are asked to leave a church. Being that God forbids it and sees it as very serious.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Its not surprising that people who are committing adultery are asked to leave a church. Being that God forbids it and sees it as very serious.


You really didn't need what you said about intolerance of other lifestyles validated, @oldshirt, but here it is.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Thanks for adding this to the discussion.
> 
> This sounds very appropriate and healthy to me.
> 
> ...


Do you see that a couple can have open and non-threating communication while still having zero tolerance boundaries? 

Can you also see that that given the existing communications we've had I would be seriously concerned and may react rather aggressively if next week or next month my wife came to me and asked what I thought about swinging with our friends Richard and Jane?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> The reason we will have to agree to disagree on the superiority issue is I see you looking down on me that I am somehow bad or lacking or less than and that I am somehow less committed and connected etc.
> 
> I accept your choice to live a completely traditional and monogamous life and do not criticize or fault you for that nor do I think you are a lesser person because.
> 
> Can you honestly, truly in your heart of hearts say that about me and my lifestyle choices?


I can actually see that you could still have a deep emotional connection with your wife and also be a swinger. I think you just don't make the same connection between sex and emotion that I and some others here do. You don't see sex as a special event only meant for your spouse. That is your choice, but I don't think the fact that you would accept a point blank question about sex with another couple without concern means you have a more open and non-threatening communication environment with your wife. You just have different boundaries.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Do you see that a couple can have open and non-threating communication while still having zero tolerance boundaries?
> 
> Can you also see that that given the existing communications we've had I would be seriously concerned and may react rather aggressively if next week or next month my wife came to me and asked what I thought about swinging with our friends Richard and Jane?


If you wife was to ask that, how would you respond? Would you be angry with her? or talk it out as adults, ask her why she had that idea? Just wondering. We've talked about that idea here. Neither has gotten angry with the other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You really didn't need what you said about intolerance of other lifestyles validated, @oldshirt, but here it is.


Its about people claiming to follow God but doing something that He sees as extremely serious. I have no issues with people making a choice to have sex with others, they are free to do what they like, but please dont pretend its what God wants. Or that they love God while they go and have sex with other men's and women's spouses.
Its a bit like if I went to church to worship God and then spent the rest of the week burgling peoples houses. Or dealing in drugs. Or driving while drunk. Or mugging old ladies.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> @LATERILUS79
> 
> Your last msg has a lot material. The one thing I can immediately address is WHY we don’t tell anybody.
> 
> ...


I would think the mods would have to give some leeway here. You are the one, after all, who opened up the discussion knowing full well what most people's mindset is. No one has been rude or obnoxious, so calling out your thinking is not predjudicial.

Also, you bring up that this is your online persona. Perhaps if you had led the discussion about your Carhartt wearin days and "secret" life style the tone of the thread might be different. It seems like when the going got tough and eople didn't fall in line the predjudice card got pulled out ..


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I can actually see that you could still have a deep emotional connection with your wife and also be a swinger. I think you just don't make the same connection between sex and emotion that I and some others here do. You don't see sex as a special event only meant for your spouse. That is your choice, but I don't think the fact that you would accept a point blank question about sex with another couple without concern means you have a more open and non-threatening communication environment with your wife. You just have different boundaries.


The deep connection for us is that we only have intimacy with each other. That as husband and wife, we are so close because we don't bring others into that intimacy. If others came into our sex lives we would never have that closeness and deep love we have for each other. The respect and trust would be gone. Sex is special for us because its only with each other. 
I don't think that anyone who is ok with having sex with others can ever understand this.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Its about people claiming to follow God but doing something that He sees as extremely serious. I have no issues with people making a choice to have sex with others, they are free to do what they like, but please dont pretend its what God wants. Or that they love God while they go and have sex with other men's and women's spouses.


I usually agree with you on most things. But if you can accept one issue ( multiple partners) then you must also accept that other people practice faith differently. I don't go to church, but I do believe in the Bible. I don't have virtue because I follow the bible's teachings, I follow the bible (mostly 😉) because I have virtue, which I feel like is a gift from God himself, and the bible backs me up!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Erudite said:


> I usually agree with you on most things. But if you can accept one issue ( multiple partners) then you must also accept that other people practice faith differently. I don't go to church, but I do believe in the Bible. I don't have virtue because I follow the bible's teachings, I follow the bible (mostly 😉) because I have virtue, which I feel like is a gift from God himself, and the bible backs me up!


Yes thanks. 
I accept that some people choose to live that way, that's obvious because we all make choices in life. What I cant accept is that they think its ok to carry on going to church while completely disobeying Gods clear teaching on faithfulness. If there were people in church who were committing adultery(which is what that is according to God), they should always be given a chance to change what they do and repent. If after a long time they refuse to stop then its Biblically right to ask them to leave. I mean why would someone who loves God want to live a life that He says is very wrong? That He warns us is very damaging for those who take part in it? 
People who don't follow God are free to do what they like of course.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> @LATERILUS79
> Your last msg has a lot material. The one thing I can immediately address is WHY we don’t tell anybody.
> You have already answered that when you said we could not be friends. You said you wouldn’t let your kids be around me which by extension means you wouldn’t let your kids be friends with or play with my kids. .
> ...... all because of what I legally do with other consenting adults in the privacy of my own bedroom.
> ...


I have to say, you have gone from 'everyone with a good marriage should walk this path,' to downright persecution.
In my opinion, you are being melodramatic and down right insulting to people who have real problems.




Diana7 said:


> Its about people claiming to follow God but doing something that He sees as extremely serious. I have no issues with people making a choice to have sex with others, they are free to do what they like, but please dont pretend its what God wants. Or that they love God while they go and have sex with other men's and women's spouses.
> Its a bit like if I went to church to worship God and then spent the rest of the week burgling peoples houses. Or dealing in drugs. Or driving while drunk. Or mugging old ladies.


The thing is, before there was light, there was God. I am familiar with Genesis and the ribs...but I still cringe when God becomes a pronoun. If there is one thing that is not a pronoun, it's God...because, God Is.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> The deep connection for us is that we only have intimacy with each other. That as husband and wife, we are so close because we don't bring others into that intimacy. If others came into our sex lives we would never have that closeness and deep love we have for each other. The respect and trust would be gone. Sex is special for us because its only with each other.
> I don't think that anyone who is ok with having sex with others can ever understand this.


it works for some people who claim it brings them closer to their spouse. I don't know. Everyone is different.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> If you wife was to ask that, how would you respond? Would you be angry with her? or talk it out as adults, ask her why she had that idea? Just wondering. We've talked about that idea here. Neither has gotten angry with the other.


You need the full context. 

If my wife and I never really discussed it previously and she asked me that, I would still be quite surprised and concerned, but I wouldn't immediately get angry and fly off the handle. I would want to talk and understand where a question like that is coming from. In fact I would use my best possible communication skills to keep and open and honest conversation going. 

We have talked about this, maybe not exactly in those terms, but same topic. In fact the post of mine you quoted was about us discussing this very thread and the other wife swapping thread, just last night. We ended that conversation with reaffirmation that neither are interested in that. So if my wife came to me now or in the future asking that same question it will get a different response. Not that people can't change their minds over time, but she would be foolish to ask such a question to do an act that is in total opposition to what we agreed already and many times. It would make me angry and upset

Also, talking about the idea is a lot different than me going to my wife and saying I was talking to my bud Richard. I want us to wife swap with him and Jane this weekend, you down?


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You need the full context.
> 
> If my wife and I never really discussed it previously and she asked me that, I would still be quite surprised and concerned, but I wouldn't immediately get angry and fly off the handle. I would want to talk and understand where a question like that is coming from. In fact I would use my best possible communication skills to keep and open and honest conversation going.
> 
> ...


Yes, of course, very different. We have talked about swapping. i have mentioned a couple we are casual friends with. Thst idea intrigues us both ... We both have this sort of "never know what the future holds" approach - her words, not mind - to the topic.We've both said "never say never" because, in six decades plus on this rock, we've learned "never" seldom is an absolute ... I mean, let's be honest: We don't know. It could be a perfect storm one night where all four people are "yes." or it could be on a vacation where we are more relaxed/willing/etc., or it could remain where it's been for a while: Topic matter for steamy fantasies in bed. ....Thanks for explaining. Much appreciated.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

harperlee said:


> I have to say, you have gone from 'everyone with a good marriage should walk this path,' to downright persecution.
> In my opinion, you are being melodramatic and down right insulting to people who have real problems.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes God is.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You really didn't need what you said about intolerance of other lifestyles validated, @oldshirt, but here it is.


Sometimes all you can do is chuckle and laugh. 

I wonder if there are people out there that want to kick all the sick and injured people out of hospitals too so they can show off how healthy everyone is? 😆


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Longtime Hubby said:


> it works for some people who claim it brings them closer to their spouse. I don't know. Everyone is different.


They may say that but who knows if it's true.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> They may say that but who knows if it's true.


No idea. Absolutely no idea. What works for one couple will not work for another


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Sometimes all you can do is chuckle and laugh.
> 
> I wonder if there are people out there that want to kick all the sick and injured people out of hospitals too so they can show off how healthy everyone is? 😆


New comers and seekers are a different kettle of fish. People need time to get to know God and learn what He says about how we should live. 
However I would think that even most non believers know that faithfulness is what God teaches. 
It's people who have been going to church for years but who think it's ok to completely disregard the fact that committing adultery is very serious to God. That God tells us to be faithful for very good reasons. 

Paul in the Bible says that if people are openly sinning in this way and will not stop despite warnings they are to be told to leave. If at anytime they come to really grasp the importance of sex being for marriage with one man and one woman they would be welcomed back. 

It's pretty clear. 

Its not about our daily failings that we try and rectify, it's people who are blantantly disobeying God and refusing to stop what they are doing that this is referring to.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Sometimes all you can do is chuckle and laugh.
> 
> I wonder if there are people out there that want to kick all the sick and injured people out of hospitals too so they can show off how healthy everyone is? 😆


Well and considering there’s kind a famous issue with priests, and that a number of church leaders have had public adultery scandals, coupled with the dismissive attitude the church has regarding sex slavery and spousal abuse, I don’t think I’m turning to the church for moral guidance. Butchers don’t usually make the best doctors.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> New comers and seekers are a different kettle of fish. People need time to get to know God and learn what He says about how we should live.
> However I would think that even most non believers know that faithfulness is what God teaches.
> It's people who have been going to church for years but who think it's ok to completely disregard the fact that committing adultery is very serious to God. That God tells us to be faithful for very good reasons.
> 
> ...


What did Paul say about priests that molest kids and the bishops that just move them to another church?


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Don't turn this on Diana. She is talking about people who specifically say they are church goers and believe in God. She is not talking about people who are agnostic. Don't derail the thread because you can't find convincing arguments to back up your own claims! Even if you whole heartedly disagree with the church argument most non church goers have had valid arguments. You think you have a wounded duck so you are gonna pounce on it but it is just more blowing smoke up people's butts.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

@Erudite, there’s a history here as well.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

All of this information here? It's excellent, thought provoking and informative. I appreciate it and it is well done. 



oldshirt said:


> @LATERILUS79
> 
> Your last msg has a lot material. The one thing I can immediately address is WHY we don’t tell anybody.
> 
> ...


Everything you wrote here? 100% fair. I'm on board and it makes perfect sense.

However, I think you missed the details of my last post. 

I said that it makes perfect sense why you would want to keep it a secret from co-workers, young children and adult family members. In addition, I should have added in "friends". NOT best friends.... just friends. I ask that you please review my questions as it pertains to your closest friends (the ones that you truly love. The ones that if shyt hits the fan, you could call them at 3am. No questions asked. They have your back. You know?) and adult children. I am respectfully asking to review my questions as it pertains to these two specific groups. 

Other than that, I am onboard with your feelings and logic with everything else you've said here. Some of it I put together on my own, some of it I didn't. 





oldshirt said:


> Would you be comfortable with me anywhere around your wife or would you assume I would try to get in her knickers?


Nope. Not a chance. Once I learned the secret nature of this lifestyle..... even less so. Why? Because I would assume most in this lifestyle are above average intelligence (stupid people have a harder time keeping secrets) and above average physical attractiveness. Reason I say above average physical attractiveness is due to human nature. I'm going to make the assumption that the last thing a man in a swinging couple would want is getting one woman to every 10 men that his wife gets. I'm going to take a leap here and say that jealousy regulation is serious business in the swinger community. Of course, that brings up the question of "so which animalistic desires do we give into and which ones get put to the side? I put jealousy as one of those things firmly in the camp of animalistic.". Anywho, as such, the man is going to have to be well above average attractiveness because I'm also assuming that no other typical attractive "life partner" quality of a man outside of his physical attractiveness will be used as a benchmark to whether the other woman in question will have sex with him or not. I think the majority of people would agree that if we take things down to base level and only animalistic physical pleasure, most women will have higher standards then men. 

With that said, I am now dealing with an intelligent attractive man that is willing to sleep with other women other than his wife and is willing to share his. Hell no. No way would I want her speaking with you. What if one day my wife and I have a fight? What if she is drunk? What if she is pissed off at me and needs to vent to someone? What stops an attractive, intelligent male swinger (or his attractive intelligent wife for that matter who could be looking for a new couple) from simply planting the seed in my wife's mind that this lifestyle is good for us? In that same line of questioning, how do you find new couples to do this with? Someone has to break the ice - and the last thing I would ever want is the seed planted in my wife's head in a state of vulnerability. 

Do I think my wife would fall for that? No, but then again, how many cheaters out there say they never saw themselves cheating? Lots and lots. All it takes is a moment of weakness. That's it. For a swinger that doesn't roll with any moral code, I could see them doing their best to plant the seeds and give ever so slight nudges to make that seed sprout. Keep offering up words here and there until she finally comes back to me with the question. I could see this happening.

Am I saying you would do that? Nope. Do I think other swingers would? Absolutely. I have friends that have been propositioned by swinger couples. Is this how all swinger couples find new couples? Don't know, but I can't take that chance. You made mention that there are a lot of myths out there about your lifestyle. I agree. I think that sucks that people will do stupid things to give a community a bad name. The most obvious you have to watch out for are cheaters who will "play" as if they want to do that lifestyle but in reality are looking for something to blame why they want to sleep around. 


oldshirt said:


> Would your wife want my wife, who is beautiful and former model and padgeant contestant around you?


Good question. Don't know. She has never given me grief for speaking with other women, but then again, you would have to know my wife. She is very reserved and plays everything close to the chest - another reason why that every couple here on TAM is going to be a case by case basis with the original question of this thread. If my wife even mentioned swinging in conversation..... it would be so wildly out of character for her. Seriously, you might as well honestly say she came up to me asking my thoughts on killing puppies. It would be in the same line of thinking.




oldshirt said:


> And here’s another thing you may not have considered, but I wouldn’t want you to know of our bedroom activities because I would assume that YOU would try to hit on my wife and assume she’d get hop into bed with you the second no one was looking.
> 
> You read that right, I wouldn’t trust YOU with that information because there are so many myths and misperceptions about swinging that many people would assume we screw everyone who asks.


The majority of the population is..... not smart. I'll go with that. What you said here sounds absolutely plausible. I can see why others would think this. No question. For the reasons I stated above, I would not think this. Again, I think a bare minimum level of physical attractiveness would be required and I don't have the slightest clue if I reach that minimum. 

What's interesting here is that due to the openness of the communication between you and your wife, I would think you would be more trusting in this situation. As in, If some asshole made an advance on your wife, she would immediately turn it down because you all already have special rules in place for you and her to sleep with other people.


Now, because this conversation is seriously making me sad (more on that later), I might as well interject some humor. 

If you knew me in real life, you would quickly find out that I am oblivious to any woman that finds me attractive. This includes my wife. It takes A LOT for me to notice if a woman is interested in me - let alone me actually hitting on another woman considering I am married. I actually had a good laugh at this one. If you were my next door neighbor, I would be the last one you would ever worry about. 

To give even more perspective, I don't trust my body. The animal side of me that would just assume give into all of my urges/desires? The thinking, logical, emotional side of me doesn't trust that guy. I've actually followed a simple plan since I've been 21 years old. I run. 

Let me repeat that. 

I run.

If a woman that I'm attracted to gets too close to me and is flirting in a way that even I pick it up, I immediately stop talking and physically sprint away. I don't allow a moment of weakness to happen. I won't cross that line. I can't. Again, emotional bond with my wife > physical pleasure. 

I will also hide. I will retreat to one of my workshops in my house and keep myself busy. I used to have this neighbor....... this woman...... Friends with my wife. This neighbor was....... she was very attractive. She'd come over to my house. I would hear her walking around my house looking for me. She would come up behind me and place her hands on my shoulders and ask me what I'm working on in my shop. Her head way too close to mine. Definitely would always get up in my personal space. One time when she was done with the hands on my shoulders she decided to rest her chin on my shoulder. That was it. That immediately triggered my sprinting function. 

Is it weird for a grown man to sprint out of his own house to get away from a woman that isn't his wife? Yeah. Probably. 

One time in college (This is going to sound like a porno).... so I used to deliver pizza. I went to college at one of the bigger party schools in the US. Long story short, lets just say somehow this house with a few women were waving me off for the night after dropping off their pizzas. As I'm turning to leave said house, I hear one of them say, "are you sure you want to leave?". I turn around and sure enough, one of the young ladies was nekkid. I remember my exact words like it was yesterday.

"NO. I am definitely NOT sure, but I gotta go. Bye.". 

Trigger sprint function. I ran back to my car and peeled out of there. Both guys got to say a line. Yes, the base line animal in me definitely wanted to stay! The logic guy took over and forced my body to leave. I had recently just met this incredible woman who I had been dating for 4 months. She got to know me. The real me. She figured me out. She made me fall in love with her within 2.5-3 months of dating. I loved her very much. There was no way in hell I was about to throw that away. Who knows? She could end up being my wife. She sure is wife material. Why would I give that up for one great night of physical pleasure? Glad I decided to leave. That girlfriend of 4 months indeed accepted my proposal to marry, and here we are 20 years later. 



oldshirt said:


> Swinging is the last legal taboo. Homosexuals have fought a long hard battle and have endured much persecution and prejudice, but they now have more acceptance and inclusion than swingers.
> 
> Would you have publicaly stated in a public forum that you couldn’t be friends with and wouldn’t let your kids around a gay man?
> 
> Would the mods have given you a slap for that? But yet it’s perfectly acceptable and cheered by others to say that to a swinger..... and not even a current swinger at that.


Two things here: 

1. I trust the mods to look at the context of these threads. You specifically asked for complete honesty and I gave it to you (I would not have shared my thoughts otherwise, but I felt you asked in a way that you truly wanted to know). I expressed my honest opinion in a way that was not disrespectful and didn't resort to name calling. 

In this instance, I do not believe your argument here stands...... but I do get what you are saying overall - reason being, one of the popular feminists here recently told me not to get "my panties in a twist". lol. Would I have been able to get away with saying that to one of the women members here? Hmmmm...... Not sure. I lean towards no. 

Regardless, you could be right and what is acceptable for one group is not for swingers. I cannot answer with 100% certainty and I would not be surprised if you are correct in this manner.


oldshirt said:


> I’m not try to lecture you because I know you already get it.


I appreciate the mutual respect. 



oldshirt said:


> I’m saying it to reiterate what I said earlier in that I have HAD to watch my back and pick my battles and establish boundaries and pay special attention to communication.
> 
> To not do so can be disastrous.


And this also makes sense. I can see plausible scenarios where every one of your concerns makes sense. 

Which brings me back to one of my previous statements. The fact that merely discussing this topic depresses me and I don't have a good reason why and I struggle to logically think it through in my head.

You are correct: If I didn't know about your lifestyle in real life, there is no question in my mind that I would be drawn to you to start a friendship. The moment I would learn about your lifestyle, I personally would be gutted. Why? Why the hell would that happen to me? I don't know how I to answer that question. I'm trying to search for the most embarrassing, "insecure" answer I can find in my head. Projection? Maybe? I think it is projection, but I don't know. 

The more I speak about this subject, the more sad I get. I envision my wife and I in a relationship like this and it twists my stomach into knots. I would feel so heartbroken to give myself to another woman. I would feel so....... different. All for 15-30 minutes of physical pleasure. I would never be the same. I would more than likely ramp up my efforts and have my wife and I find as many couples as possible in order to fill the growing void in my heart - all the while making the void bigger. I would look at my wife and not see the beautiful soul that she is any more. She wouldn't look the same. She would belong to other men. She wouldn't belong to me anymore. I would look at myself. I would no longer have that one special thing that I saved for one special woman on this planet. I would no longer belong to her any more. I would belong to.... whomever. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror. It just isn't me. Even if we were to stop, I would never forget. For the remainder of our lives, we would no longer belong to each other. 

I would see how you roll your life in all other areas. Maybe I see your kids? I see your wife? I see how you involve yourself in the community..... and I personally would not be able to emotionally handle it. Every time I would see you I would question why you would give yourself away to others along with sharing your wife - even though it has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with me and my projection of my values onto you. This of course is wholy unfair to you and unreasonable. This isn't your problem. This my problem and mine alone. I mean, it is straight up ridiculous - and yet, as I write this post, I keep getting more and more sad just thinking about this topic. 

So yeah..... there is nothing wrong with you or your lifestyle. Nothing. Everyone finds their happiness their own way. Your emotions clearly work in a different way than mine. I would not be able to emotionally handle being friends IRL.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Erudite said:


> Don't turn this on Diana. She is talking about people who specifically say they are church goers and believe in God. She is not talking about people who are agnostic. Don't derail the thread because you can't find convincing arguments to back up your own claims! Even if you whole heartedly disagree with the church argument most non church goers have had valid arguments. You think you have a wounded duck so you are gonna pounce on it but it is just more blowing smoke up people's butts.


Nah i’m Just giving Diana crap on the hypocrisy. I give her crap a few times a week. She loves it 😘 😊 💕


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

I think the rule is generally being able to talk about anything or ask any question that involves trying to make the relationship better, but not every topic or question is to do that.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Yes, of course, very different. We have talked about swapping. i have mentioned a couple we are casual friends with. Thst idea intrigues us both ... We both have this sort of "never know what the future holds" approach - her words, not mind - to the topic.We've both said "never say never" because, in six decades plus on this rock, we've learned "never" seldom is an absolute ... I mean, let's be honest: We don't know. It could be a perfect storm one night where all four people are "yes." or it could be on a vacation where we are more relaxed/willing/etc., or it could remain where it's been for a while: Topic matter for steamy fantasies in bed. ....Thanks for explaining. Much appreciated.


Your scenario makes sense too. You've talked about, probably more than once. It isn't a show stopper for either of you, so the talk has a different outcome. It doesn't even matter if you act on the talk or not. You are communicating 

If you do think you could go down that road though, I suggest you read the wife swapping thread to see a potential train wreck outcome.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> The more I speak about this subject, the more sad I get. I envision my wife and I in a relationship like this and it twists my stomach into knots. I would feel so heartbroken to give myself to another woman. I would feel so....... different. All for 15-30 minutes of physical pleasure. I would never be the same. I would more than likely ramp up my efforts and have my wife and I find as many couples as possible in order to fill the growing void in my heart - all the while making the void bigger. I would look at my wife and not see the beautiful soul that she is any more. She wouldn't look the same. She would belong to other men. She wouldn't belong to me anymore. I would look at myself. I would no longer have that one special thing that I saved for one special woman on this planet. I would no longer belong to her any more. I would belong to.... whomever. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror. It just isn't me. Even if we were to stop, I would never forget. For the remainder of our lives, we would no longer belong to each other.


When you said I run, I immediately though, Run Forrest, Run! lol

Seriously though this right here is exactly how I feel. I could almost tear up just thinking about these things. The loss of the one thing in life that I've only shared with my wife is just too much to bear. Sex and intimacy with my wife is far to precious to share her. It is only for us. Like you said, for a little short term pleasure? Just not for me. This is at the very foundation of who I am and our marriage, same for my wife. That is why I would not react well to non-monogamous activities being proposed.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> When you said I run, I immediately though, Run Forrest, Run! lol
> 
> Seriously though this right here is exactly how I feel. I could almost tear up just thinking about these things. The loss of the one thing in life that I've only shared with my wife is just too much to bear. Sex and intimacy with my wife is far to precious to share her. It is only for us. Like you said, for a little short term pleasure? Just not for me. This is at the very foundation of who I am and our marriage, same for my wife. That is why I would not react well to non-monogamous activities being proposed.


Yup. That's pretty much how it is. I stand up straight. I turn. I run. Honestly, my thought process has always been "why?". Why stick around for that? Why is this woman resting her head on my shoulder? Does she want me to kiss her? Is she trying to get my attention? Eventually the other asshole in my head is going to win. It's in the same realm of "harmless flirting". There is no such thing as harmless flirting. Why do people do this to themselves? What are they proving and to whom? What prize do they win for showing ultimate will power? Screw that. I'm running away from this bullshyt before I do something stupid and devastate the person I love more than anything. 


Secondly, I appreciate your post. I honestly thought I was crazy when I posted before. 🤣 I thought, "yeah, they'll all think I'm nuts now." I didn't think anyone else would see it my way or be affected like that. And it's not just about me. I very much enjoy the community I live in. I like my neighbors. I like seeing them in what appears to be happy marriages. I like seeing their kids. I like seeing their kids play with mine. I sorta get a "community strength" by seeing other like minded marriages around my wife and I. It makes me very happy for them. I like seeing my neighbors look at each other the way my wife and I do.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well and considering there’s kind a famous issue with priests, and that a number of church leaders have had public adultery scandals, coupled with the dismissive attitude the church has regarding sex slavery and spousal abuse, I don’t think I’m turning to the church for moral guidance. Butchers don’t usually make the best doctors.


The RC church are not one I would go to. 
The vast majority of pastors are decent people. You only hear about the few very famous ones on TV. They are often a very bad representation of the majority. I guess you just love attacking Christians though so I will leave you to it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Nah i’m Just giving Diana crap on the hypocrisy. I give her crap a few times a week. She loves it 😘 😊 💕


Do I? That's ok then.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> What did Paul say about priests that molest kids and the bishops that just move them to another church?


He would absolutely condemn that appalling behaviour. I have nothing to do with the RC church.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> When you said I run, I immediately though, Run Forrest, Run! lol
> 
> Seriously though this right here is exactly how I feel. I could almost tear up just thinking about these things. The loss of the one thing in life that I've only shared with my wife is just too much to bear. Sex and intimacy with my wife is far to precious to share her. It is only for us. Like you said, for a little short term pleasure? Just not for me. This is at the very foundation of who I am and our marriage, same for my wife. That is why I would not react well to non-monogamous activities being proposed.


Its very encouraging to read posts by you and laterilus and a few others who clearly greatly value their spouse and marriage. I am the same. As my husband says adultery would never be worth it. He is right.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Kinda off topic, and a little more light hearted, but how do swingers find one another? I had someone the other day tell me if a couple had an upside down pineapple in their grocery cart it meant they were open. I seriously want to hear THAT conversation. Lol


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Kinda off topic, and a little more light hearted, but how do swingers find one another? I had someone the other day tell me if a couple had an upside down pineapple in their grocery cart it meant they were open. I seriously want to hear THAT conversation. Lol


You should start a new thread so the swingers on here know you have that question. I'm sure they can answer it. It would help me too, I've been researching those lifestyles and I'm very interested in the way it works.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@oldshirt 

This thread really went side ways on you, didn't it? lol


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thanks for the personal attack. I've noticed you doing quite a lot of that lately and not just with me. So maybe one of us has some sort of problem but I think you might want to look in the mirror.


There was no personal attack there at all, just a very sound observation on his part about the way you typically belittle or attack the male sex on a regular basis. What was it about men not being able to handle the discussion.....


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I can't think of anything that we haven't been able to talk about or discuss. Nothing that is closed off to each other.
Honesty and openness is important in a marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Erudite said:


> Kinda off topic, and a little more light hearted, but how do swingers find one another? I had someone the other day tell me if a couple had an upside down pineapple in their grocery cart it meant they were open. I seriously want to hear THAT conversation. Lol


There are dozens - probably hundreds - of web sites specifically for this, with membership ranging from 10s of thousands to tens of millions of people. And many large cities have swinger clubs - which also have web sites.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> All of this information here? It's excellent, thought provoking and informative. I appreciate it and it is well done.
> 
> 
> Everything you wrote here? 100% fair. I'm on board and it makes perfect sense.
> ...


Lots to read. Intetesting. I’m bummed out that a swinger couple has never hit on my wife and I.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

And now I will pay close attention in grocery stores. Upside down pineapples? Hmm


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Longtime Hubby said:


> And now I will pay close attention in grocery stores. Upside down pineapples? Hmm


 Right? I feek like that would be an awkward conversation in the parking lot though "Excuse me but I was admiring the position of your pineapple and..." LoL


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Right? I feek like that would be an awkward conversation in the parking lot though "Excuse me but I was admiring the position of your pineapple and..." LoL


So funny. I’d search for it but I’m not doing it on my work devices. 😂


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Erudite said:


> Right? I feek like that would be an awkward conversation in the parking lot though "Excuse me but I was admiring the position of your pineapple and..." LoL


...And then there'd be me. I just threw the pineapple in the cart any old way and it ended up upside down. And on my way out to my car it would be like honey bees around the queen.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

There were three swinger couples in the periphery of my old crowd, and none of them were attractive. Now there were other members of my crowd who had wild parties that got out of hand and pretty much turned into orgies but weren't involving married couples. Some of them, maybe most of them, were good looking.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Right? I feek like that would be an awkward conversation in the parking lot though "Excuse me but I was admiring the position of your pineapple and..." LoL


And could suddenly have something to do with your spouse that evening!


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There were three swinger couples in the periphery of my old crowd, and none of them were attractive. Now there were other members of my crowd who had wild parties that got out of hand and pretty much turned into orgies but weren't involving married couples. Some of them, maybe most of them, were good looking.


Wow. So they weren’t attractive, maybe they were great in bed?! Wild parties became orgies? Nice!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Wow. So they weren’t attractive, maybe they were great in bed?! Wild parties became orgies? Nice!!


Don't know. Only one of the three couples is still together. A friend of mine was friends with the woman when he was really young and he called me not long ago letting me know he was visiting her and she lives somewhere near me but I never knew her. I just knew who they were. But I knew the other two men. One of them sent me a Christmas email, but it was part promotional as he represents an artist. The other was a good friend I knew through work and ended up dating, but that was a mistake and I had no idea he was going to end up into swinging. Like swinging with middle-aged strangers. I wouldn't care how good they were in bed because I would not be attracted enough to them to want to do that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

We have found out over the years that several of our friends swing and we had no idea. Some of them are attractive, some less so, but they’re all really nice people. They hide that from us because they’re worried we wouldn’t stay friends with them, they know we are not into sex with others. We don’t care, everyone involved is a consenting adult and they don’t ask us to join them. It’s their business.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So funny. I’d search for it but I’m not doing it on my work devices. 😂


Well taking one for the team here but google fact check says it's true! 🍍🍍🍍


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> Well taking one for the team here but google fact check says it's true! 🍍🍍🍍


I will be very careful with my pineapples from now on. 😂


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We have found out over the years that several of our friends swing and we had no idea. Some of them are attractive, some less so, but they’re all really nice people. They hide that from us because they’re worried we wouldn’t stay friends with them, they know we are not into sex with others. We don’t care, everyone involved is a consenting adult and they don’t ask us to join them. It’s their business.


I feel like swingers would have to live in a fairly cosmopolitan area to find other couples ad hoc. I mean if you're in a po dunk rural town you would need those websites.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I feel like swingers would have to live in a fairly cosmopolitan area to find other couples ad hoc. I mean if you're in a po dunk rural town you would need those websites.


The couples we know are friends in life. I don’t know if they hook up with strangers, what I’ve been told is that it’s all couples who know each other. But I’m getting this second hand from a friend who accidentally walked in on a naked pool party, and then my husband and I left a dinner party and when we went back for his jacket the other two couples were all four naked in the pool in the back. We’ve never actually asked them about it. We’re in a pretty big city in Texas.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The couples we know are friends in life. I don’t know if they hook up with strangers, what I’ve been told is that it’s all couples who know each other. But I’m getting this second hand from a friend who accidentally walked in on a naked pool party, and then my husband and I left a dinner party and when we went back for his jacket the other two couples were all four naked in the pool in the back. We’ve never actually asked them about it. We’re in a pretty big city in Texas.


I hear there is a sizeable crowd in the city I work at in NE Tx. Pop ~27k. One of my employees told me about one of the guys I happen to know asking her to join....son her hubby would kill you.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I can't think of anything that we haven't been able to talk about or discuss. Nothing that is closed off to each other.
> Honesty and openness is important in a marriage.


It is the most important... thing is a couple should know what is off limits and don't even go there. My wife and I both would both end things if either asked for 3 some or swinging. It would be verification we are no longer compatible in beliefs. We are still free to discuss...but there are repercussions that come with some questions.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> I hear there is a sizeable crowd in the city I work at in NE Tx. Pop ~27k. One of my employees told me about one of the guys I happen to know asking her to join....son her hubby would kill you.


My wife and I have discussed this, "what if the situation happens?" It never has, but we are taking the "never say never" and "one never knows" approach. In a perfect storm, well, we shall see what happens. Not sure if any of our friends are swingers. Have not seen any pineapple door knockers at their homes, lol.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There were three swinger couples in the periphery of my old crowd, and none of them were attractive. Now there were other members of my crowd who had wild parties that got out of hand and pretty much turned into orgies but weren't involving married couples. Some of them, maybe most of them, were good looking.


Swingers are like everyone else - a whole range of attractiveness. Given that most people (over 70%) in the US and Canada are overweight or obese, not many are highly attractive. Ugly people like sex too! LOL Besides, you decide who you play with, so most play with someone similar to themselves, like dating.

As for pineapples, they are a symbol of warmth and hospitality. I've heard that upside down ones are a swinger symbol, but have never actually seen that at the grocery store. And bromelain, an enzyme found in pineapple, triggers testosterone production which can elevate a man's sex drive. High levels of vitamin C and thiamine in pineapple provide a surge of energy to the body too, thus increasing sexual stamina.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Divinely Favored said:


> It is the most important... thing is a couple should know what is off limits and don't even go there. My wife and I both would both end things if either asked for 3 some or swinging. It would be verification we are no longer compatible in beliefs. We are still free to discuss...but there are repercussions that come with some questions.


Agreed. That's why you and I married people who greatly value faithfulness and know it's vital for marriage.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Swingers are like everyone else - a whole range of attractiveness. Given that most people (over 70%) in the US and Canada are overweight or obese, not many are highly attractive. Ugly people like sex too! LOL Besides, you decide who you play with, so most play with someone similar to themselves, like dating.
> 
> As for pineapples, they are a symbol of warmth and hospitality. I've heard that upside down ones are a swinger symbol, but have never actually seen that at the grocery store. And bromelain, an enzyme found in pineapple, triggers testosterone production which can elevate a man's sex drive. High levels of vitamin C and thiamine in pineapple provide a surge of energy to the body too, thus increasing sexual stamina.


Note to self: Eat more pineapple! A friend once hinted about swapping. Later denied she said it. Um, okay, Joan.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Agreed. That's why you and I married people who greatly value faithfulness and know it's vital for marriage.


Faithful married people committed to each other can still expand their horizons if they both agree.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Faithful married people committed to each other can still expand their horizons if they both agree.


Faithfulness is about having sex with your husband or wife.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Faithful married people committed to each other can still expand their horizons if they both agree.


No. If you’re swapping then sex is not special to you. Your wife is a sex buddy. She could be replaced tomorrow and you’d not notice or care. She’s a roommate you also have sex with. Sex is either a meaningless physical release or it’s not. “It’s different with you” is a lie cheaters tell so they don’t have to pay for a divorce. It’s fine if people want to do that because for some people sex is just a thing you do, and as long as both people view it as a meaningless physical release and the friendship arrangement is compatible and comfortable then fine. But you’re not committed. You’re just comfortable with the living arrangements.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No. If you’re swapping then sex is not special to you. Your wife is a sex buddy. She could be replaced tomorrow and you’d not notice or care. She’s a roommate you also have sex with. Sex is either a meaningless physical release or it’s not. “It’s different with you” is a lie cheaters tell so they don’t have to pay for a divorce. It’s fine if people want to do that because for some people sex is just a thing you do, and as long as both people view it as a meaningless physical release and the friendship arrangement is compatible and comfortable then fine. But you’re not committed. You’re just comfortable with the living arrangements.


I’m not quick to judge people. Nasty habit. We’ve been faithful for 27 married years. Just saying that one never knows what the future holds. Maybe at a party, on a vacation, things happen. Life is unpredictable. “Never say never”


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Faithfulness is about having sex with your husband or wife.


With all due respect, every couple is different.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Your word choice implies that people who don’t see things your way as “less than” or definitely “unenlightened”, yet you claim to want to have an open discussion here to see why people would be uncomfortable with the mention of swinging from their spouse.
> 
> when you use the words you do, you are going to get defensive answers as opposed to the open discussion you claim to seek.
> 
> ...


There are sometimes problems like this when those who boink others talk to those who boink only one.

There were some early discussions I took part in on TAM, and probably some other places, where it was insinuated and outright claimed that monogamous folks were less secure and had a more boring sex life than the poly folks.

I had a laugh at their expense because I have always been more confident than is probably legal and Mrs. C and I were not exactly low on the sexual market value. I've known some couples who were poly and they were far less dynamic than us.

Territorial does not always equate to insecurity, certainly not in my case as I'm not even jealous.

Communication is another area where poly folks might believe they are more advanced than monos.

That's really so individual that poly folks can't claim that.

Mrs. C and I talk about everything even if it's uncomfortable.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I’m not quick to judge people. Nasty habit. We’ve been faithful for 27 married years. Just saying that one never knows what the future holds. Maybe at a party, on a vacation, things happen. Life is unpredictable. “Never say never”


I'm not "judging" people. Facts are facts. People change over time; as you age, sex could potentially become more of a sport than an emotional connection. There's nothing in the world wrong with that, as long as both people are on the same page. Relationships can change, it's not at all unusual for people who have been together for a long time to see their relationship evolve into more of a close friendship. But to pretend that people are in a loving, committed relationship where sex is a bonding experience while they're shtupping everything that moves is nonsense. The keystone to anything like this is trust and honestly; if someone says to me "It's different with you, I luuuurrrrve you" I know they 1. Are a liar and 2. Think I'm a moron. "Look, I'm bored with having sex with you, I want to have sex with other people now and you can do the same, but I don't want to change our living arrangements. I want to stay friends and keep living together and keep all the non-sexual parts of our relationship intact, but we'll have sex with others and maybe if we don't have options we could still do it for a physical release," then fine, that's a totally different approach that is honest and true and respectful and we can discuss it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> There are sometimes problems like this when those who boink others talk to those who boink only one.
> 
> There were some early discussions I took part in on TAM, and probably some other places, where it was insinuated and outright claimed that monogamous folks were less secure and had a more boring sex life than the poly folks.
> 
> ...


Very well said. I know I'm not insecure nor jealous, but I am surely not going to share my wife with anyone. Territorial is a good way to put it. 

I could believe that poly/swingers may have better communication about sex than most couples, but that doesn't mean it carries over into other aspects of the marriage.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Very well said. I know I'm not insecure nor jealous, but I am surely not going to share my wife with anyone. Territorial is a good way to put it.
> 
> *I could believe that poly/swingers may have better communication about sex than most couples, but that doesn't mean it carries over into other aspects of the marriage.*


Agreed. They have GREAT communication. That doesn't mean they have committed, faithful marriages. They're sex buddies. Which is fine if that's what you want in your life, whatever.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

leftfield said:


> The title of this thread disagrees with you.


I'm siding with @Married but Happy on this one.

This thread really is about possibly ticklish topics being discussed with your spouse but not criminal activities.

While Mrs. Conan wanting to discuss the topic of non monogamy wouldn't cause us a blip, asking to perform a sex act with someone else is a little different and would cause ripples.

Neither would be on par with asking to commit a crime against anyone.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm not "judging" people. Facts are facts. People change over time; as you age, sex could potentially become more of a sport than an emotional connection. There's nothing in the world wrong with that, as long as both people are on the same page. Relationships can change, it's not at all unusual for people who have been together for a long time to see their relationship evolve into more of a close friendship. But to pretend that people are in a loving, committed relationship where sex is a bonding experience while they're shtupping everything that moves is nonsense. The keystone to anything like this is trust and honestly; if someone says to me "It's different with you, I luuuurrrrve you" I know they 1. Are a liar and 2. Think I'm a moron. "Look, I'm bored with having sex with you, I want to have sex with other people now and you can do the same, but I don't want to change our living arrangements. I want to stay friends and keep living together and keep all the non-sexual parts of our relationship intact, but we'll have sex with others and maybe if we don't have options we could still do it for a physical release," then fine, that's a totally different approach that is honest and true and respectful and we can discuss it.


The ocassional “shtupping” May be fun. Again, it’s up to each couple. What works for one couple may not for another. I know we talk about it. Have not done it. Who knows about the future?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> The ocassional “shtupping” May be fun. Again, it’s up to each couple. What works for one couple may not for another.


That's what I said. If sex is just a meaningless physical release with no emotional component to it and everyone is on the same page, then fine. Nothing wrong with sex buddies, it's a personal choice.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I’m not quick to judge people. Nasty habit. We’ve been faithful for 27 married years. Just saying that one never knows what the future holds. Maybe at a party, on a vacation, things happen. Life is unpredictable. “Never say never”


You can say never if you feel very strongly about it. I can't forsee any circumstances in which faithfulness would be optional.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> You can say never if you feel very strongly about it.


You can, yes, but then again …”Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans” - John Lennon


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's what I said. If sex is just a meaningless physical release with no emotional component to it and everyone is on the same page, then fine. Nothing wrong with sex buddies, it's a personal choice.


Well said, TexasMom


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Very well said. I know I'm not insecure nor jealous, but I am surely not going to share my wife with anyone. Territorial is a good way to put it.
> 
> I could believe that poly/swingers may have better communication about sex than most couples, but that doesn't mean it carries over into other aspects of the marriage.


Successful swingers, like @Married but Happy , have very good communication and boundaries which is probably more necessary for the survival of their relationship but in no way means that level of communication isn't just as good, and needed, in us monogamous folks as well.

Aside from sexual exclusivity, couples like he and his wife are actually very normal folks. Some swingers are downright boringly normal! LoL!

I think a lot of problems occur between monogamous and non monogamous folks when they, or we, talk a little too sharply with each other.

I took offense to the term "vanilla" once because I felt Mrs. C and I were being looked at as having a less amazing sex life than those who share.

I don't want to get too off point from this thread, which is about communication and I think it's a good topic.

There are poorly behaving individuals among those who share and among those who don't.

MBH is by far the most rational and normal non monogamous person on this site in my humble opinion.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> *Your word choice implies that people who don’t see things your way as “less than” or definitely “unenlightened”, yet you claim to want to have an open discussion here to see why people would be uncomfortable with the mention of swinging from their spouse.*
> 
> when you use the words you do, you are going to get defensive answers as opposed to the open discussion you claim to seek.
> 
> ...


I bolded two parts of your post, the beginning and the ending, because you should know that you are TOTALLY WRONG about him if that's what you are getting from his posts.

All of the non-monogamy members here are some of the most accepting, honest, and open-minded people I've ever discussed things with, especially with non-traditional emotional topics that most people cannot handle.

I have never heard this OP, nor ANY other ENM (Ethical Non-Monogamy) members here express any hint of backhanded critiques or superiority with their choices. If you think that's what he is saying, then you are misunderstanding him and misreading what he is writing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I bolded two parts of your post, the beginning and the ending, because you should know that you are TOTALLY WRONG about him if that's what you are getting from his posts.
> 
> All of the non-monogamy members here are some of the most accepting, honest, and open-minded people I've ever discussed things with, especially with non-traditional emotional topics that most people cannot handle.
> 
> I have never heard this OP, nor ANY other ENM (Ethical Non-Monogamy) members here express any hint of backhanded critiques or superiority with their choices. If you think that's what he is saying, then you are misunderstanding him and misreading what he is writing.


I have been straightforward critiqued by one on this site. He claimed he was far more successful, sexually and romantically, because he had many partners. I informed him that choosing not to do something, doesn't mean I lack the ability.

I have also been slighted in the past and done my fair share of slighting as well.

MBH is obviously favored by me and there use to be a woman I really felt friendship with who left TAM a while back. She was a great woman who wasn't in a monogamous relationship. I'm only vouching for those two.😉

I appreciate oldshirt but he's too much of a rascal to earn the ease of my soul. You have to be on guard with a guy that thinks a girl serving cheeseburgers, being a nurse or a paralegal is no different than selling access to her birth canal.😉😋


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I have been straightforward critiqued by one on this site. He claimed he was far more successful, sexually and romantically, because he had many partners. I informed him that choosing not to do something, doesn't mean I lack the ability.
> 
> I have also been slighted in the past and done my fair share of slighting as well.
> 
> ...


"Rascal"...!!!!!!!! I haven't heard that word since Bugs Bunny!!!! Lol!!!!! 

I must also vouch for @maquiscat, although I think you may disagree, but he's SO patient and non-judgmental, I love reading his posts even if I don't agree with what he says!!! 

I believe I know the female member you are referring to, and I miss her and her perspective as well.

I love and welcome ALL viewpoints so I can consider them, but only if respectfully delivered. Then they are simply annoying and lack credibility with me (which doesn't matter to anyone but ME, I know).


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I bolded two parts of your post, the beginning and the ending, because you should know that you are TOTALLY WRONG about him if that's what you are getting from his posts.
> 
> All of the non-monogamy members here are some of the most accepting, honest, and open-minded people I've ever discussed things with, especially with non-traditional emotional topics that most people cannot handle.
> 
> I have never heard this OP, nor ANY other ENM (Ethical Non-Monogamy) members here express any hint of backhanded critiques or superiority with their choices. If you think that's what he is saying, then you are misunderstanding him and misreading what he is writing.


LD, you know I love your posts and greatly respect you. I’ll take your word for it with what you’ve said here.

also, please read the back and forth I had with OldShirt after the post you quoted. I think we were able to hash things out to a place of better understanding.

speaking of oldshirt, I hope he comes back to answer my last post.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Longtime Hubby said:


> You can, yes, but then again …”Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans” - John Lennon


I don't see it about planning but about what is inside you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I don't see it about planning but about what is inside you.


He should just refer to himself, which is probably true for him. He's obviously open to it already.

He can't say that about anyone else.

I'll never be in a poly relationship, certainly not with my wife.

I'm certain of your commitment as well.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> LD, you know I love your posts and greatly respect you. I’ll take your word for it with what you’ve said here.
> 
> also, please read the back and forth I had with OldShirt after the post you quoted. I think we were able to hash things out to a place of better understanding.
> 
> speaking of oldshirt, I hope he comes back to answer my last post.


Thank you!! And I respect YOU and know you have a great heart and the best intentions!!

And that's why I told you - if I didn't think highly of you, I wouldn't have bothered pointing it out...I'm nice like that...Lol!!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Successful swingers, like @Married but Happy , have very good communication and boundaries which is probably more necessary for the survival of their relationship but in no way means that level of communication isn't just as good, and needed, in us monogamous folks as well.
> 
> Aside from sexual exclusivity, couples like he and his wife are actually very normal folks. Some swingers are downright boringly normal! LoL!
> 
> ...


I have observed here over a very long period of time that people here who are into things like porn, swinging, more than one spouse, BDSM etc are treated with much greater patience and respect than those who are in 100% faithful marriages. Seems odd to me but it's not entirely a surprise.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> He should just refer to himself, which is probably true for him. He's obviously open to it already.
> 
> He can't say that about anyone else.
> 
> ...


Its not an option ever Conan. I would have no desire for casual sex because sex for me is so intertwined with love and committment.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I have observed here over a very long period of time that people here who are into this NHS like porn, swinging, more than one spouse, BDSM etc are treated with much greater patience and respect than those who are in 100% faithful marriages. Seems odd to me but it's not entirely a surprise.


What do you mean with "not entirely a surprise"...?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Swingers are like everyone else - a whole range of attractiveness. Given that most people (over 70%) in the US and Canada are overweight or obese, not many are highly attractive. Ugly people like sex too! LOL Besides, you decide who you play with, so most play with someone similar to themselves, like dating.
> 
> As for pineapples, they are a symbol of warmth and hospitality. I've heard that upside down ones are a swinger symbol, but have never actually seen that at the grocery store. And bromelain, an enzyme found in pineapple, triggers testosterone production which can elevate a man's sex drive. High levels of vitamin C and thiamine in pineapple provide a surge of energy to the body too, thus increasing sexual stamina.


I actually think less attractive people are more likely to be swingers because they crave variety and aren't able to get it easily like attractive people.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I have observed here over a very long period of time that people here who are into things like porn, swinging, more than one spouse, BDSM etc are treated with much greater patience and respect than those who are in 100% faithful marriages. Seems odd to me but it's not entirely a surprise.


It depends on the crowd. I feel I've been given a fair shake.

Plus I'm pretty harsh myself at times.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Swingers are like everyone else - a whole range of attractiveness. Given that most people (over 70%) in the US and Canada are overweight or obese, not many are highly attractive. Ugly people like sex too! LOL Besides, you decide who you play with, so most play with someone similar to themselves, like dating.
> 
> As for pineapples, they are a symbol of warmth and hospitality. I've heard that upside down ones are a swinger symbol, but have never actually seen that at the grocery store. And bromelain, an enzyme found in pineapple, triggers testosterone production which can elevate a man's sex drive. High levels of vitamin C and thiamine in pineapple provide a surge of energy to the body too, thus increasing sexual stamina.


You aren't kidding about the overweight and obesity epidemic! I wish it was taken more seriously. Health is so important but we could be prettier as well now couldn't we?😉

I'm going to have to include more pineapple in my diet apparently.🙂


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> What do you mean with "not entirely a surprise"...?


Society says 'anything goes'.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Society says 'anything goes'.


So why do you find it odd then?

And I think I disagree with you that they are shown more patience and respect than others...how is that possible when 98% of the members here are monogamous? Are you saying that monogamous people here treat ENM members better than they do eachother? 

Can you be more specific?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I actually think less attractive people are more likely to be swingers because they crave variety and aren't able to get it easily like attractive people.


I guess that's one way to look at it. Most swingers are married, though, and (attractive) married people also have the constraints of being married so maybe can't get the variety another way without cheating. Swinging is consensual, solving that problem.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I guess that's one way to look at it. Most swingers are married, though, and (attractive) married people also have the constraints of being married so maybe can't get the variety another way without cheating. Swinging is consensual, solving that problem.


I'm curious about what your motivation was to get into swinging? Did you feel like your sex life needed it for some reason? Or has it always been this way?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I guess that's one way to look at it. Most swingers are married, though, and (attractive) married people also have the *constraints* of being married so maybe can't get the variety another way without cheating. Swinging is consensual, solving that problem.


This is a significant word choice and speaks volumes to me. It's a completely different way of viewing and feeling about sex, and I think is a clear indication of the primary difference between monogamous and non-monogamous people.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> So why do you find it odd then?
> 
> And I think I disagree with you that they are shown more patience and respect than others...how is that possible when 98% of the members here are monogamous? Are you saying that monogamous people here treat ENM members better than they do eachother?
> 
> Can you be more specific?


The few who arent monogamous seem to be treated with kid gloves. Just my observation.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> The few who arent monogamous seem to be treated with kid gloves. Just my observation.


I know you're not a fan of me, but I do completely agree with you on this point. The non-monogamous are sensitive and defensive about their choices. And there is more than a hint of condescension in their interactions, whether consciously or not, that makes it clear they view the monogamous as less sophisticated and evolved than they are.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The few who arent monogamous seem to be treated with kid gloves. Just my observation.


I wish I could dig up some of my old stuff. I was either bare knuckle or UFC gloves at most with a lot of my posts and I've even fairly recently done some smackdown with a couple of posters who were poly because of their individual ridiculousness, not their lifestyle.

There have been a couple on TAM that really aren't ridiculous however and have a lot of helpful advice.

I'm only speaking for myself of course and I'm probably too poor to pay attention to the atmosphere you are talking about.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> The few who arent monogamous seem to be treated with kid gloves. Just my observation.


They don't in general try to make the people who have chosen monogamy to feel inferior, nor tell them that their life choices are unethical or, even in mutually agreed circumstances, unfaithful.

And you wonder why they don't suffer from as much blowback.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know you're not a fan of me, but I do completely agree with you on this point. The non-monogamous are sensitive and defensive about their choices. And there is more than a hint of condescension in their interactions, whether consciously or not, that makes it clear they view the monogamous as less sophisticated and evolved than they are.


Could be a chip on your shoulder, since I have never felt that.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> Presumably your "traditional" marriage moved to an " untraditional marriage" and that your great communication style made this possible. This is not true. Your marriage was already untraditional, you just covered it up.


Your assumption here is incorrect. I would venture to guess @oldshirt and his wife had the same journey into the lifestyle as most who navigate it successfully. My wife and I got into it after about 8 years of traditional monogamous marriage. It was never something either of us thought about or discussed, we dated for 10 years before getting married so 18 years and it never came up. And it was 2-3 years of flirting with the idea before actually dipping our toes in the pool. When we first discussed the idea we dismissed it and the second time and the third. There were certain situations and other factors that lead to looking at it seriously and even then we took things very slow in baby steps before we had our first threesome. The reason it was so long between broaching the subject and even going to a strip club for some lap dances was the idea was so foreign and outside what we ever thought we would be comfortable with.

Unless you have very few friends and acquaintances I guaranty you know at least one couple in the lifestyle and their most likely one you would never expect. 

We had a lot of fun and met some really cool people and a few real weirdos. We have been out of it for about 4 years now, may go back may not who knows for us with our rules it's a lot of work.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Could be a chip on your shoulder, since I have never felt that.


I've seen it occasionally and I love chips too much to leave one on my shoulder.

I've seen just as much attitude tossed back at them, however, and I've been just as much a part of it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> I guess that's one way to look at it. Most swingers are married, though, and (attractive) married people also have the constraints of being married so maybe can't get the variety another way without cheating. Swinging is consensual, solving that problem.


I mean, we've had posts on here in the past about women whose husbands took them to a swingers place without their consent or were pressuring them, so it's not always consensual, but sometimes certainly.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Erudite said:


> Kinda off topic, and a little more light hearted, but how do swingers find one another? I had someone the other day tell me if a couple had an upside down pineapple in their grocery cart it meant they were open. I seriously want to hear THAT conversation. Lol


Yes people walk around with upside down pineapples. That is one I have never heard It could be a local community thing. For us it was basically online dating sites for lifestyle people. It becomes tricky to figure out who is real and who is a creepy dude messaging you pretending to be a bisexual woman, but you learn to spot the fakes. Once you meet enough people you find out about parties and clubs and stuff like that.


TexasMom1216 said:


> You should start a new thread so the swingers on here know you have that question. I'm sure they can answer it. It would help me too, I've been researching those lifestyles and I'm very interested in the way it works.


We used a few different sites for lifestyle couples to get started. Then we met and got to know a few people who had been in the lifestyle for a while and they introduced us to other resources that had less fakes and creepy dudes. It is not easy to be honest at least it wasn't for us because the rules we had and approach we took to minimize risks and complications. I believe the best thing we did was taking it very very slow. I said just a few minutes ago that it was 2-3 years between first discussing and beginning to act at all. My wife just reminded me it was more like 5, I forgot we almost went to a party years earlier (I don't even remember how we would have heard about it) for purely voyeuristic intentions. We got all the way there and chickened out and went home.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean, we've had posts on here in the past about women whose husbands took them to a swingers place without their consent or were pressuring them, so it's not always consensual, but sometimes certainly.


I have run into guys like that at clubs, those men are usually shunned in the community and if a club owner hears about it they will often ban the guy and let other club owners know about him. I mean that is abuse really, you have to be a special kind of jackass to pull something like that. We have also been contacted on sites by a "couple" whose female part wanted to play with another woman. It quickly became apparent it was the husband who wanted to watch his wife with another woman. Once discovered we would try to get the guy to see the errors of his ways but it's a predatory mindset these guys have. If the sites weren't anonymous we would have contacted the wife to tell her what was going on.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Some questions show a complete lack of concern for one's spouse or the relationship, or even a hostile or dangerous attitude towards one's spouse. Questions can be a warning. When that becomes apparent, it might cause someone to flee.

Example:
Hey Honey, I just got this new chainsaw and wonder if you could help me with something. I've always wondered what it would be like to watch someone bleed out. Can I cut your leg off? Please, pretty please?

Hey Honey, I've always had voyeuristic tendencies and wonder if you will have sex with the neighbor so I can watch.

One is the death of a person. The other is the death of a marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm curious about what your motivation was to get into swinging? Did you feel like your sex life needed it for some reason? Or has it always been this way?


I think I've always been poly-oriented, but my first marriage was completely monogamous (and largely sexless). My present relationship was poly almost from the start and we had a poly relationship for several years, but it's difficult to find suitable poly partners. When our poly partners moved on, we decided to try swinging, as we both enjoy sexual variety (which largely comes from different personalities, more-so than from different sex acts). Our relationship was highly sexual, frequent, and fabulous from the start - and still is. We just wanted more of a good thing! And we got it!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I think I've always been poly-oriented, but my first marriage was completely monogamous (and largely sexless). My present relationship was poly almost from the start and we had a poly relationship for several years, but it's difficult to find suitable poly partners. When our poly partners moved on, we decided to try swinging, as we both enjoy sexual variety (which largely comes from different personalities, more-so than from different sex acts). Our relationship was highly sexual, frequent, and fabulous from the start - and still is. We just wanted more of a good thing! And we got it!


I can honestly understand this mindset MUCH better than a monogamous relationship turning to swinging later on. 

If I went into a relationship from the start knowing it was poly, I wouldn't catch the same "kind" of feels that I would in a monogamous relationship. Like I said before, my mind is already set. I belong to my wife. She belongs to me. Any change in that at this point would result in a divorce. If I was poly from the start, I can see having love for the other spouse but not that same sense of belonging. I think emotionally it would be less taxing to be poly from the start.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can honestly understand this mindset MUCH better than a monogamous relationship turning to swinging later on.
> 
> If I went into a relationship from the start knowing it was poly, I wouldn't catch the same "kind" of feels that I would in a monogamous relationship. Like I said before, my mind is already set. I belong to my wife. She belongs to me. Any change in that at this point would result in a divorce. If I was poly from the start, I can see having love for the other spouse but not that same sense of belonging. I think emotionally it would be less taxing to be poly from the start.


I think most people are like you, and I truly respect those who are monogamous and actually _live_ by their convictions. And yes, poly people don't believe in "belonging" to someone, but they can and do usually believe in commitment. Many also practice "polyfidelity" where they've made a long-term commitment to the others in their closed non-binary relationship.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I think most people are like you, and I truly respect those who are monogamous and actually _live_ by their convictions. And yes, poly people don't believe in "belonging" to someone, but they can and do usually believe in commitment. Many also practice "polyfidelity" where they've made a long-term commitment to the others in their closed non-binary relationship.


I can see this logically. If all the people in the poly relationship make a commitment to the rest of the group, you can create a family (almost a community) where everyone helps out each other build a life. You can also not worry about an STDs assuming everyone in the poly relationship makes a commitment like a monogamous one.

I can't say for certainty I wouldn't catch the feels for one particular member of a poly relationship in a hypothetical world if I was in one, but I do have some slight experience prior to meeting my wife. Somehow I got into my mind that I would at least save sex for my future wife (PIV) but I was game for anything else. I mean, I'm a guy and have a very high sex drive. I wasn't against getting off. I had some women I visited on the regular back in college to fool around with that I never got the feels for and wasn't bothered when they moved on to start dating someone. 

I guess it is a give and take though. I wanted to have a deep emotional bond with someone. Someone special to me. I'm still constantly fighting this mindF in my head thinking about going to swinging after being monogamous. How does that work? Do the couple still truly love each other deeply? What happens when you go to a party? Do people just pair off into separate rooms? When the husband is plowing away on some other woman, is he thinking, "You know, I truly and deeply love my wife.". When his wife is riding away on top of some other man, is she thinking, "I truly love the deep emotional connection I have with my husband.". I personally cannot separate these two things. The physical act of sex and the deep emotional love/connection for just one other person. I can't just put that into a box for 30 minutes and then feel it again after having sex with someone else.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know you're not a fan of me, but I do completely agree with you on this point. The non-monogamous are sensitive and defensive about their choices. And there is more than a hint of condescension in their interactions, whether consciously or not, that makes it clear they view the monogamous as less sophisticated and evolved than they are.


I am glad I am not the only one who sees it. 
I have no issues with you except you don't seem to like Christians. That's ok, its not uncommon.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I think I've always been poly-oriented, but my first marriage was completely monogamous (and largely sexless). My present relationship was poly almost from the start and we had a poly relationship for several years, but it's difficult to find suitable poly partners. When our poly partners moved on, we decided to try swinging, as we both enjoy sexual variety (which largely comes from different personalities, more-so than from different sex acts). Our relationship was highly sexual, frequent, and fabulous from the start - and still is. We just wanted more of a good thing! And we got it!


At least you know where you are then. People like me could then give you wide berth. Its when people get married and think their spouse is faithful until they suggest swinging, or an open marriage or just go and cheat behind their back that problems come.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I think I've always been poly-oriented, but my first marriage was completely monogamous (and largely sexless). My present relationship was poly almost from the start and we had a poly relationship for several years, but it's difficult to find suitable poly partners. When our poly partners moved on, we decided to try swinging, as we both enjoy sexual variety (which largely comes from different personalities, more-so than from different sex acts). Our relationship was highly sexual, frequent, and fabulous from the start - and still is. We just wanted more of a good thing! And we got it!


I am not able to get past the idea of someone else having sex with my wife. There are many reasons, but one is that I consider sex as something special between just the two of us. Not to mention that I was a virgin when I met her, and our sex life is amazing as is. In our opinion sex is the ultimate in intimacy and should only be shared with your spouse or committed partner. I can actually rationalize the "polyfidelity" you mentioned. That makes sense to me on some level. Similar to same sex marriages, I won't judge someone for who they fall in love with, but without commitment it just feels like slutty behavior to me. Do you have something other than sexual intimacy that you share only with your wife?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> There are sometimes problems like this when those who boink others talk to those who boink only one.
> 
> There were some early discussions I took part in on TAM, and probably some other places, where it was insinuated and outright claimed that monogamous folks were less secure and had a more boring sex life than the poly folks.
> 
> ...


I can say without a doubt that swinging does not equal better sex. I can confidently say at least the top 20 sexual experiences of my life have been with just my wife and I not involving anyone else.

On the point of communication, saying lifestyle couples have better communication, it is probably true that the average successful lifestyle couple has better communication that your average monogamous couple. But that doesn't mean that all lifestyle couples have better communication that all lifestyle couples. Yes to be successful in the world of swinging extremely open and honest if you don't have that you will not be successful. You can have a successful monogamous marriage with mediocre communication plenty do. 

People new to the lifestyle to tend to have more of a superiority complex, They generally settle down and lose the arrogance after a bit. Some people are just arrogant as a default setting.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I can say without a doubt that swinging does not equal better sex. I can confidently say at least the top 20 sexual experiences of my life have been with just my wife and I not involving anyone else.
> 
> On the point of communication, saying lifestyle couples have better communication, it is probably true that the average successful lifestyle couple has better communication that your average monogamous couple. But that doesn't mean that all lifestyle couples have better communication that all lifestyle couples. Yes to be successful in the world of swinging extremely open and honest if you don't have that you will not be successful. You can have a successful monogamous marriage with mediocre communication plenty do.
> 
> People new to the lifestyle to tend to have more of a superiority complex, They generally settle down and lose the arrogance after a bit. Some people are just arrogant as a default setting.


I cant agree that they have better communication at all.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> They don't in general try to make the people who have chosen monogamy to feel inferior, nor tell them that their life choices are unethical or, even in mutually agreed circumstances, unfaithful.
> 
> And you wonder why they don't suffer from as much blowback.


People attacking my faith or my moral values don't make me feel inferior. If they feel inferior that is down to them. Oh and I usually don't say unfaithful, but that its adultery. Which it is whether agreed or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I can say without a doubt that swinging does not equal better sex. I can confidently say at least the top 20 sexual experiences of my life have been with just my wife and I not involving anyone else.
> 
> On the point of communication, saying lifestyle couples have better communication, it is probably true that the average successful lifestyle couple has better communication that your average monogamous couple. But that doesn't mean that all lifestyle couples have better communication that all lifestyle couples. Yes to be successful in the world of swinging extremely open and honest if you don't have that you will not be successful. You can have a successful monogamous marriage with mediocre communication plenty do.
> 
> People new to the lifestyle to tend to have more of a superiority complex, They generally settle down and lose the arrogance after a bit. Some people are just arrogant as a default setting.


Yup. MBH and I went a couple rounds early on but he won my ease after proving to be very rational and he had already given good advice for marriage that could apply for anyone.

I'm also friends with a couple that share to some extent, and they are far more conservative and right wing than I will ever be. They are also very unassuming and not really extraordinary at all in the looks department and I can't imagine them performing some of the bedroom acrobatics Mrs. Conan and I have accomplished. We have been fitness nuts for years and they are aging "naturally" by not exercising or eating right if you get my meaning. They're also some of the nicest and most generous people you ever want to meet.

I appreciate your post.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> People attacking my faith or my moral values don't make me feel inferior. If they feel inferior that is down to them. Oh and I usually don't say unfaithful, but that its adultery. Which it is whether agreed or not.


In general, people are not attacking your faith or moral values.

They are attacking your implication that your choices are superior, for them as well as you. Now maybe you don't do it intentionally, but I'm not generally naïve enough to believe that.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I can say without a doubt that swinging does not equal better sex. I can confidently say at least the top 20 sexual experiences of my life have been with just my wife and I not involving anyone else.


I agree. Some of the worst sex I've had has been with swingers, but that's been rare, fortunately. Some of the best sex I've had has also been with swingers (particularly threesomes with my wife and another woman) and there were a few women who were truly extraordinary and memorable! HOWEVER, I too will say that at least my top 20 sexual experiences have been just with my wife. And we've both learned more than a few great techniques from other swingers.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I cant agree that they have better communication at all.


My point isn't that Swingers have better communication than monogamous couples can have. And it is probably more accurate to say lifestyle couples have to have great communication around sex and non-monogamy. Usually that carries over to everything but there could be couples out there who do well because of their communication in that area but don't have great communication about other important things like finances etc. My point is you can have a good marriage without great communication, you cannot be in the lifestyle and have a good marriage without great communication, if you don't you will be at best a former lifestyle couple, or worst a divorced lifestyle couple, or a lifestyle couple with a bad marriage. In the lifestyle there is a much smaller margin of error. This is only from my experience and the couples I know and the failures I have seen.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> I agree. Some of the worst sex I've had has been with swingers, but that's been rare, fortunately. Some of the best sex I've had has also been with swingers (particularly threesomes with my wife and another woman) and there were a few women who were truly extraordinary and memorable! HOWEVER, I too will say that at least my top 20 sexual experiences have been just with my wife. And we've both learned more than a few great techniques from other swingers.


We have only really done threesomes with other women, for me it was great and fun but too much going on and I always found it hard to decide where to focus my attention. Just another case where porn is vastly different from reality.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I guess it is a give and take though. I wanted to have a deep emotional bond with someone. Someone special to me. I'm still constantly fighting this mindF in my head thinking about going to swinging after being monogamous. How does that work? Do the couple still truly love each other deeply? What happens when you go to a party? Do people just pair off into separate rooms? When the husband is plowing away on some other woman, is he thinking, "You know, I truly and deeply love my wife.". When his wife is riding away on top of some other man, is she thinking, "I truly love the deep emotional connection I have with my husband.". I personally cannot separate these two things. The physical act of sex and the deep emotional love/connection for just one other person. I can't just put that into a box for 30 minutes and then feel it again after having sex with someone else.


Most people get into swinging after they've been in a monogamous relationship for some time, though we've certainly met people who've been dating for a short time and decide to explore some more together before getting married. We'll probably be meeting one of the latter couples later this week. I can assure you that most swinging couples are truly and deeply in love with each other, many have been for decades (and some have been swinging for decades).

There is no one way to do swinging. Every couple or single has their own wants, boundaries, and rules. Some pair off in the same room, some in separate rooms, and some like to watch or be watched (especially at parties or clubs).

I'm sure if you're doing things right, you're focused on the moment (and your current partner); you'd be focused just the same if you're playing golf or driving in heavy traffic (at least I hope you are!). Does that mean you love your spouse less? Of course not! And you're really happy and excited to connect with your spouse later. Sex often become more intense and frequent with your spouse afterwards, too, for a week or two. You say you can't do that, which is great for _you_ and _your_ marriage. Sex between me and my wife is special; with someone else it's just entertainment (like golf, but maybe more intense like whitewater rafting). You might want to avoid swinging, though!


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> We have only really done threesomes with other women, for me it was great and fun but too much going on and I always found it hard to decide where to focus my attention. Just another case where porn is vastly different from reality.


Imagine it is difficult to please two women at the same time.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Imagine it is difficult to please two women at the same time.


Two? ****, just one his well-nigh impossible.

Oh, we're talking sex. My bad.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Imagine it is difficult to please two women at the same time.


That and sometimes in those situations you might as well just grab a drink and watch a movie cause if the ladies get penis regularly but vagina rarely it's hard to get attention when you don't have the vagina (or boobs).


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Two? ****, just one his well-nigh impossible.
> 
> Oh, we're talking sex. My bad.


i am willing to take on the challenge.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> That and sometimes in those situations you might as well just grab a drink and watch a movie cause if the ladies get penis regularly but vagina rarely it's hard to get attention when you don't have the vagina (or boobs).


kick back, enjoy the show.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> Most people get into swinging after they've been in a monogamous relationship for some time, though we've certainly met people who've been dating for a short time and decide to explore some more together before getting married. We'll probably be meeting one of the latter couples later this week. I can assure you that most swinging couples are truly and deeply in love with each other, many have been for decades (and some have been swinging for decades).
> 
> There is no one way to do swinging. Every couple or single has their own wants, boundaries, and rules. Some pair off in the same room, some in separate rooms, and some like to watch or be watched (especially at parties or clubs).
> 
> I'm sure if you're doing things right, you're focused on the moment (and your current partner); you'd be focused just the same if you're playing golf or driving in heavy traffic (at least I hope you are!). Does that mean you love your spouse less? Of course not! And you're really happy and excited to connect with your spouse later. Sex often become more intense and frequent with your spouse afterwards, too, for a week or two. You say you can't do that, which is great for _you_ and _your_ marriage. Sex between me and my wife is special; with someone else it's just entertainment (like golf, but maybe more intense like whitewater rafting). You might want to avoid swinging, though!


I’m not going to sit here and say what you describe isn’t exciting. It sound ridiculously exciting. Trust me, my best friend down below thinks your lifestyle is pretty damn sweet.

My head does not.

there is no way I could see my wife be mounted by another man. No way I could see another man enter her. Not a chance. It would be even worse if I didn’t see it. The mental images would absolutely plague me.

I know for a fact if that were to happen, I would love her less.

do I think swinging couples love each other? Absolutely. I definitely do not doubt this. I fail to see the level of closeness though if you are able to share yourself with others. I think the love and connection is lessened. I absolutely believe you that greater sex can be had with your spouse following one of these parties. I can understand how that is plausible for sure. I just think the emotional connection is gone. Or at least, it would be for me for sure.

I think it would also make sense to take BigDaddy and my situation into account due to the way we’ve set up our marriages. He and I are both one and onlys. Having just one more partner is quite a HUGE deal. One more woman and I have now doubled The number of women Ive ever slept with. No question, only being with my wife means that she was given a gift that no one else has gotten. If I were to have had multiple partners prior to getting married…… maybe I would see that emotional bond in a different way? I can’t honestly answer that and I can’t knock the lifestyle. It is just something that would make me extremely uncomfortable to even be around in real life.

you mentioned something before in this thread that had been buzzing around in the back of my head for a bit. You mentioned some of the most pleasurable feelings in the world is giving into that base desire. That animalistic feeling.

another one of the mind F situations in my head is “which animalistic feeling is ok and which one isn’t?”

for example:
You are clearly able to handle the lifestyle. Obviously, I think there is a portion of the population that can. We are all different. How many people in your travels CANNOT handle the lifestyle? I’ve heard the majority cannot. I don’t know if that is true, but I can certainly believe that a significant portion of the population cannot handle this. Even for those that slowly but sure dip their toes in. One animalistic feeling that I think would need to be regulated is jealousy. Is it ok to give into jealousy like it is to want to have sex with others outside of the marriage? How is jealousy regulated? What do you all do? How do people prevent themselves from beating the crap out of themselves constantly thinking “was so and so better than me? Does my spouse now wish to be with that person instead of me?”. How many of these couples break their own rules? When things start to feel good, sometimes one will lose their mind and just do what they want. How do people regulate constantly wondering if their spouse is going to bend the rules they put in place? And I have no idea what these rules are, I’m just saying.

next, what in the hell do these couples do if the wife gets pregnant? I can’t imagine the “fun” it must be to first go to get a DNA test for the fetus prior to getting excited about bringing a new member to their family. God, it kills me just to think about it. No matter how great that communication is in a lifestyle couple, I can’t imagine any man on this planet trusting his wife prior to a dna test.

next, how about this animalistic feeling? Very few men are willing to raise the child of another man. We can social construct this one to death, but let’s be real. It takes a special, not common man to raise another man’s child. I know for a fact I would not. What then? Do we give into that animalistic desire too? Just watch any nature channel. Nature is BRUTAL. first thing a new male lion does once he knocks out the previous king is to kill all the offspring of the previous king. I’m obviously not advocating for humans to ever do such a thing. I’m simply saying it is another animalistic desire on a base level.

things just get too murky for me for what is allowed and then other things are not. I get the poly situation you set up and I could see how that would be a fulfilling life. The swinging thing? It just twists my stomach into knots.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We have found out over the years that several of our friends swing and we had no idea. Some of them are attractive, some less so, but they’re all really nice people. They hide that from us because they’re worried we wouldn’t stay friends with them, they know we are not into sex with others. We don’t care, everyone involved is a consenting adult and they don’t ask us to join them. It’s their business.


There are some friends i wonder about, truth be told. Wonder if they swing, that is. Just a gut feeling, hard to describe


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Longtime Hubby said:


> And now I will pay close attention in grocery stores. Upside down pineapples? Hmm


My innocent mind was thinking about "who lives in a pineapple under the sea!"


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

pastasauce79 said:


> My innocent mind was thinking about "who lives in a pineapple under the sea!"


And now all I can see is Spongebob running in circles yelling "I'm ready! I'm ready! I'm ready!"


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> There are some friends i wonder about, truth be told. Wonder if they swing, that is. Just a gut feeling, hard to describe


We were shocked. We thought they were happily married and had no idea they thought about sex so differently.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> And now all I can see is Spongebob running in circles yelling "I'm ready! I'm ready! I'm ready!"


Well, maybe he was ready to do whatever was needed so he'd pass the driving test given by Mrs. Puff. Anything.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We were shocked. We thought they were happily married and had no idea they thought about sex so differently.


Were they happily married?

Whereas it's certainly not me/us, I can't see it, doesn't mean others may not be happily married while swinging I guess.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Were they happily married?
> 
> Whereas it's certainly not me/us, I can't see it, doesn't mean others may not be happily married while swinging I guess.


They're sex buddies. It's not the same as a marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> In general, people are not attacking your faith or moral values.
> 
> They are attacking your implication that your choices are superior, for them as well as you. Now maybe you don't do it intentionally, but I'm not generally naïve enough to believe that.


You are entitled to your opinion of course.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I think it would also make sense to take BigDaddy and my situation into account due to the way we’ve set up our marriages. He and I are both one and onlys. Having just one more partner is quite a HUGE deal. One more woman and I have now doubled The number of women Ive ever slept with. No question, only being with my wife means that she was given a gift that no one else has gotten. If I were to have had multiple partners prior to getting married…… maybe I would see that emotional bond in a different way? I can’t honestly answer that and I can’t knock the lifestyle. It is just something that would make me extremely uncomfortable to even be around in real life.


This right here is the biggest factor in my mind. I can't honestly say I went into my relationship with my wife, then GF, thinking she would be the only one for me. I was thinking with my less intelligent head at the time, lol. However, it didn't take that long to know that I wanted to be with her for the long term and that evolved into I want her to be my one and only once I had marriage on my mind. That is a gift, as you said. I don't doubt that I could have a different view if I had been with multiple partners prior. 

I'm sure there are no stats on swinging, but I would be surprised if there are any couples successful in swinging that are married to their first sexual partner. That was what dumbfounded me about the thread that motivated this thread. A man who married a woman that was a virgin and only knew him sexually for 50 years half-assed decided to get into swinging. If you've read that thread you know how it went. Even though it was his own doing I feel soooo bad for that man. Or at least I can empathize with his emotions and feeling a regret. He is torn with nightmares 7 years after the fact. I don't know if I could keep my sanity with all the thoughts an images that would forever be going through my mind.

I'm curious. For those in this lifestyle, have you ever encountered swingers whose only sex partner was their spouse, prior to swinging? And do you know how it turned out long term?


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Were they happily married?
> 
> Whereas it's certainly not me/us, I can't see it, doesn't mean others may not be happily married while swinging I guess.


To each their own, as the saying goes.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They're sex buddies. It's not the same as a marriage.


I understand what you are saying about marriage and what it means to you. So they were a happy couple?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I understand what you are saying about marriage and what it means to you. So they were a happy couple?


They seemed fine, yes. Their marriage is different from mine because sex is something special between me and my husband and not just a meaningless physical release like it is in swapping/swinging/open marriages. So it's different because they have fundamentally different ideas about sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They seemed fine, yes. Their marriage is different from mine because sex is something special between me and my husband and not just a meaningless physical release ...


You seem to be pounding on this point pretty hard, and I'm almost certain that most of the swingers represented here would disagree pretty strongly with it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> You seem to be pounding on this point pretty hard, and I'm almost certain that most of the swingers represented here would disagree pretty strongly with it.


They are. They're pounding it pretty hard, that whole "it's different with you, cause I luuuurrrrvvvveee you." This is why I could never be in a relationship with someone for whom sex isn't personal or special. I can't be a plan B, it's too hurtful to me. Different people want different things.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They are. They're pounding it pretty hard, that whole "it's different with you, cause I luuuurrrrvvvveee you." This is why I could never be in a relationship with someone for whom sex isn't personal or special. I can't be a plan B, it's too hurtful to me. Different people want different things.


<How to put this diplomatically>

Perhaps you are wrong about how they feel?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> <How to put this diplomatically>
> 
> Perhaps you are wrong about how they feel?


Does it really matter what I think about how they feel?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> ... do I think swinging couples love each other? Absolutely. I definitely do not doubt this. I fail to see the level of closeness though if you are able to share yourself with others. I think the love and connection is lessened. I absolutely believe you that greater sex can be had with your spouse following one of these parties. I can understand how that is plausible for sure. I just think the emotional connection is gone. Or at least, it would be for me for sure.
> 
> I think it would also make sense to take BigDaddy and my situation into account due to the way we’ve set up our marriages. He and I are both one and onlys. Having just one more partner is quite a HUGE deal. One more woman and I have now doubled The number of women Ive ever slept with. No question, only being with my wife means that she was given a gift that no one else has gotten.


You have something rare and special. Treasure it! And do what's right for you - and you DO know what's right for you.

For us, the love and connection isn't lessened. What is key for us is the emotional connection we have with each other. Sex is just sex to us, but damn, sex IS wonderful, and _for us_ it's worth the rewards of sharing it with others. And it's even more wonderful with someone you love who loves you back. You have that - but, so do we!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Does it really matter what I think about how they feel?


Not at all, if you like arguing strawmen. But it's hard to take someone seriously who continues to replace another's self reported reality with a different preferred version.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> What is key for us is the emotional connection we have with each other. *Sex is just sex to us*, but damn, sex IS wonderful, and _for us_ it's worth the rewards of sharing it with others. And it's even more wonderful with someone you love who loves you back. You have that - but, so do we!


@Cletus, it seems someone here who has an open marriage is in agreement with my assessment of it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Not at all, if you like arguing strawmen.


Your not agreeing with me doesn't make my argument a strawman.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @Cletus, it seems someone here who has an open marriage is in agreement with my assessment of it.


You didn't bold the part where he said the key is their emotional connection. I think the big difference is we connect sex and emotional connection, we can't sperate them. @Married but Happy derives that emotional connection with his wife from something else. It ain't for me, but if it works for them, then so be it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You didn't bold the part where he said the key is their emotional connection. I think the big difference is we connect sex and emotional connection, we can't sperate them. @Married but Happy derives that emotional connection with his wife from something else. It ain't for me, but if it works for them, then so be it.


That's because sex is just a meaningless physical release to them. It's their friendship that's important. They're sex buddies.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @Cletus, it seems someone here who has an open marriage is in agreement with my assessment of it.


I mostly agree. Sex is just sex (sort of like food is just food - but it can still be extraordinary at times), AND can still be special with someone you love. Just not so special that it has to be reserved for just one person, though. But that's our perspective, and we understand that it is far more meaningful for other people.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's because sex is just a meaningless physical release to them. It's their friendship that's important. They're sex buddies.


Although it isn't marriage as I define it, I think they are more than sex buddies. That isn't the only thing they do together. At least I hope it isn't, lol.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Although it isn't marriage as I define it, I think they are more than sex buddies. That isn't the only thing they do together. At least I hope it isn't, lol.


We are _far_ more than friends and sex buddies. We have a deeper commitment to each other than I've seen in many _good_ marriages. Even before we married, I supported her through a long term chronic illness, severe disability, loss of career, and more. I could have easily bailed since there was no "commitment" - except, _there was!_ The only kind that truly matters, which is being there for each other in good times and bad, based on love, even when the personal costs seem greater than the potential rewards.

We do almost everything together, because we truly enjoy being with each other. We share everything, have no secrets, and actively try to make it easy for each other to be happy, whatever that is.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's because sex is just a meaningless physical release to them. It's their friendship that's important. They're sex buddies.


I don't know why you feel you have to minimalize the depth of my relationship and our sexual connection, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, you're welcome.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't know why you feel you have to minimalize the depth of my relationship and our sexual connection, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, you're welcome.


Why do some like to judge others? I don't get it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't know why you feel you have to minimalize the depth of my relationship and our sexual connection, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, you're welcome.


 But you're not at ALL implying that I'm some troglodyte who is just too unsophisticated to understand how much more my husband would value me if I said he could have sex with whoever he wants, right? You're certainly not judging my relationship as lesser, because you're such a cosmopolitan guy you just feel sorry for my poor husband and how restrictive his life is.

He can have sex with whomever he likes. I will step aside at any time, end our sexual relationship and he can go to all the swinger parties and orgies he wants. The door is open to him. He chooses to stay. Think what you will, I am NOT trapping him.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But you're not at ALL implying that I'm some troglodyte who is just too unsophisticated to understand how much more my husband would value me if I said he could have sex with whoever he wants, right? You're certainly not judging my relationship as lesser, because you're such a cosmopolitan guy you just feel sorry for my poor husband and how restrictive his life is.
> 
> He can have sex with whomever he likes. I will step aside at any time, end our sexual relationship and he can go to all the swinger parties and orgies he wants. The door is open to him. He chooses to stay. Think what you will, I am NOT trapping him.


I'm sorry, I have to ask....

WHAT...??? WHERE has anyone ever said that to you, or anyone else, EVER???


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

How do you all feel towards the couples you hook up with? Are you all friends? Do you compare stories with each other? Do you talk to the other couples about how much you like having sex with them and say stuff like they are the best? Does no one ever get jealous or have to deal with difficult emotions?

I was kinda hoping you’d answer my questions from before.

i read your explanations and I can level with them somewhat. I’m obviously not going to fully understand since I’m not in the lifestyle.

bigdaddy had a great question earlier about couples who only have had each other before. What is said to them? Is anything said to them? I am curious if those are the couples that fall apart.

my biggest fear of knowing swinger couples in real life is what I mentioned to old shirt earlier in this thread. The seed planting. Is there a moral code that swingers follow? Do swinger couples talk to curious couples and tell them “hey, this works for us. Don’t take this lightly. Once you jump in, that’s it. You can’t take it back. Someone will have slept with your spouse.” Is there anyone that says “don’t do this. You don’t want this. You have to be extremely dedicated for this to work out.”

unfounded or not, here is what I fear: the predator cheater mentality. I would think there would be swinger couples out there that are like “hmmmm….. we really want to sleep with Laterilus and his wife. How do we convince them to sleep with us?”. Is there any of that? Are there situations where swingers only think of themselves and getting the sex but don’t care if they possibly destroy a marriage? Do you know anyone that tries to manipulate a married couple into swinging even though you know deep down they either don’t want to or you know it won’t work with them and itll destroy their marriage… but you do it anyway just to get the sex?

I mean that sincerely and not out of disrespect. I don’t know this lifestyle and I have no idea if I know someone that does this. I just know if I learned who did this in my community, I would not be around them as I don’t think I could risk a situation where a “slow manipulation” could occur.

I don’t presume anyone here does this. I don’t know you all in real life and for all I know there’s a strict code of conduct and morality when dealing with couples that really shouldn’t be trying out swinging.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Hello again. I see this thread has taken on a new life of it's own. I've been under the weather the last few days and haven't kept up much. And if I did try to pound out a few words on the keyboard, I would need a few hours of sleep to get my strength back. 

Anyhoo, as I have said at other points in the thread, I never meant for this to be a discussion about swinging itself per se but rather where there really topics that just the mere mention of would damage one's relationship or one's view of their spouse .

I have since learned that the answer to that for some people is YES. 

While I personally do not ascribe to that philosophy myself, it's good to know that it does go on in the world and that it is a thing. 

At the time I initiated this thread, I thought the other thread of reference was a fake. I had doubts that anyone would actually be that naive and..... well.... dumb, to broach that kind of topic in the manner for which he did. 

But now that he has returned to that thread to add more info and explanation, I am willing to believe that the thread may be for real which means he may have really been that naive and dumb, but I am glad that they are addressing it and working through it. 

While he screwed the pooch in how he broached the topic years ago, I am glad that he was able to get some useful perspective and guidance here and was able to address the issue in a constructive manner and they were able to move forward. 

As always, communication and mutual respect and compassion are key. 

If y'all wish to continue to discuss swinging, I encourage you to start your own thread if you have any questions about it or if there is something you want to say about it. 

If you have some specific questions about it or specific comments about it, you may get some specific answers on a specific thread. 

Otherwise I think all your going to get here on the remainder of this thread is the church people saying it's bad and the people who have actually done it saying it isn't bad, as well as the people saying they would dump their spouse at the mere mention of it.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Hello again. I see this thread has taken on a new life of it's own. I've been under the weather the last few days and haven't kept up much. And if I did try to pound out a few words on the keyboard, I would need a few hours of sleep to get my strength back.
> 
> Anyhoo, as I have said at other points in the thread, I never meant for this to be a discussion about swinging itself per se but rather where there really topics that just the mere mention of would damage one's relationship or one's view of their spouse .
> 
> ...


Or those of us who would not dump a spouse at the mere mention, who don't think it's bad if all agree to it, and who are willing to listen to such offers. Dump my wife if she suggested it? Please. No way I'd do that. Some here have me SMH.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm sorry, I have to ask....
> 
> WHAT...??? WHERE has anyone ever said that to you, or anyone else, EVER???


I was going to ask this.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I was going to ask this.


same


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's because sex is just a meaningless physical release to them. It's their friendship that's important. They're sex buddies.


I think you are right in a way and wrong in another way. I said in an earlier post that even though My wife have been part of some wild stuff sexually, The best sex I have had in my life has been with my wife. The reason for that is mainly because sex with her involves the intense emotional connection that does not exist in a swinging situation. But both my wife and I can separate sex from emotion and get freaky just to get freaky whether it's just the two of us or more. That doesn't mean that when it's just the two of us sex never means something more than just a simple physical release, 99% of the time it's much more than that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm sorry, I have to ask....
> 
> WHAT...??? WHERE has anyone ever said that to you, or anyone else, EVER???


There was a whole section of the thread where we went back and forth about the way that swingers/orgy folk tend to respond to questions in a way that implies their relationship is better, healthier, more modern and sophisticated than people with monogamous relationships. 

My giving a label to their relationship is no more minimizing it than the implication that I'm just not cool enough to swing.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think you are right in a way and wrong in another way. I said in an earlier post that even though My wife have been part of some wild stuff sexually, The best sex I have had in my life has been with my wife. The reason for that is mainly because sex with her involves the intense emotional connection that does not exist in a swinging situation. But both my wife and I can separate sex from emotion and get freaky just to get freaky whether it's just the two of us or more. That doesn't mean that when it's just the two of us sex never means something more than just a simple physical release, 99% of the time it's much more than that.


There isn't a nice way for me to respond. I simply don't believe that's possible. It's important for me to point out that in my life I have been fed that line over and over and it was always a lie. 

I also don't know how to convey that there's nothing wrong with sex just being something you do that feels good and having no emotional tie to it. Some people feel differently about sex than I do. That's fine. It's not a judgement to say that sex doesn't have any significance, it's just different people feeling different ways about different things.

We're not going to agree. As I said, I'm sure you all pity my poor husband stuck with me. I assure you, one word, one peep about wanting this and I would release him immediately to have all the sex he wants. I don't need alimony and I'd want him to stay a father to my son. If he doesn't want me any more, I'm not going to trap him.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> He can have sex with whomever he likes. I will step aside at any time, end our sexual relationship and he can go to all the swinger parties and orgies he wants. The door is open to him. He chooses to stay. Think what you will, I am NOT trapping him.


No I mean some people go on there own but generally you should go with him.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> No I mean some people go on there own but generally you should go with him.


Well that seems unnecessarily cruel. I said I would let him go, I can't imagine why he'd be so angry that he'd want to do that. I don't think he would force me to sit there and watch while they all point and laugh.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But you're not at ALL implying that I'm some troglodyte who is just too unsophisticated to understand how much more my husband would value me if I said he could have sex with whoever he wants, right?


I'm not. I am in now, have always been in, and will die in a monogamous relationship, if it matters. 

When someone tells me something about their interpersonal life, I try to believe them, until they prove otherwise. The poly and open marriage folks here FTMP (not universally, perhaps) don't agree with your assessment of their emotional state.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well that seems unnecessarily cruel. I said I would let him go, I can't imagine why he'd be so angry that he'd want to do that. I don't think he would force me to sit there and watch while they all point and laugh.


I don't think they want you to just sit and watch, lol.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I don't think they want you to just sit and watch, lol.


He's there because I'm not attractive any more. Am I supposed to serve drinks? No matter how angry or disgusted he was with me, this is not in his character. Tells me a lot about you, though.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> I'm not. I am in and will die in a monogamous relationship, if it matters.
> 
> *When someone tells me something about their interpersonal life, I try to believe them, until they prove otherwise. The poly and open marriage folks here FTMP (not universally, perhaps) don't agree with your assessment of their emotional state.*


That's fair. I should have left the thread a while ago, there's really no value to my participating in this discussion. I've become a joke while they all laugh that my poor husband is trapped.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Very well said. I know I'm not insecure nor jealous, but I am surely not going to share my wife with anyone. Territorial is a good way to put it.
> 
> I could believe that poly/swingers may have better communication about sex than most couples, but that doesn't mean it carries over into other aspects of the marriage.


My main thought on the subject is why get married? I mean, marriage means you stay faithful to one another. I'm all for staying single (I am single) if you don't like the sound of marriage or can't sustain it. So I'd say people agreeing on a swinger lifestyle abandoned the tenants of marriage. So why keep saying you're married if you're not living that lifestyle at all? I mean, I can see if you married and then later agreed to boink others, maybe why spend money on a divorce, but to get married when you know that's not your lifestyle, I don't get it. I guess people got married either thinking it was going to be all they needed or they just got married to lock someone down, or so they thought, or maybe even to give their kids a last name, which is fine, but they can't really be very solemn about the institution of marriage, so why try to simultaneously cleave to it and pretend you have one when you're both playing around with others?

I guess I dodged a bullet with that one boyfriend/friend. He was still in the process of finalizing the divorce when he insisted we now date instead of just be friends because though I didn't know it before, turns out he can't be alone for 24 hours on his own. No excuse, but I was in a whirlwind at the time, brokenhearted and now working with the heartbreaker, as of recently, and my apt had blew up. So when the friend offered living together as a solution, I told him no, but when I had to move (apt blown up) he followed and got an apt right down the row, but was usually at my place when we were both home, and he mentioned the M word almost immediately. 

I knew there was a woman out of town, a client, after him (he told me all about it as friends. She was openly after him while he was married and not contemplating divorce), and when he tried to get me to date him and I wasn't ready, I told him I didn't want to date him first and during his divorce and to date her, but he said no and told her no right in front of me on the phone. But he still traveled to her town on business. I didn't care. I was still mourning the other relationship and seeing that guy at work now. 
My mind wasn't on it.

I dumped the bf over spending too much time with his wife and really, just because my heart wasn't in it anyway, so that was a great excuse. Immediately, he brought the out-of-town woman to town and she stayed and they married right away. I moved out of that apt as soon as lease was up and was done with all that. Except he occasionally had business where I worked. So we did lunch a time or two. Even with this woman living with him, he wanted to get back together. I said no. I had regrets ever taking it to that level. I was friends and happy as friends. He wasn't.

It was decades before I found out he was cheating with her while spending so much time at my place and that he had her in town for a week. I noticed he wasn't around much, but it was not a big deal to me. Someone else told me just in catching up 20 years later. Then a friend of mine showed me the woman's blog and she talked about going to swinger clubs. So they were 40-50 by then. And I hated losing him as a friend, but at that moment, I went, man, I really dodged a bullet. I didn't know he'd be into that. Guess they got bored. She wasn't at all attractive. I mean, if I showed you a photo, she looks really crazy and not in a good way. She looked 60 when she couldn't have been over 30. I don't see how he found swingers. But not choosey at all, I guess. I just think she'd have gone along with anything to get and keep him. 

Meanwhile, again 20 years later, he also hired a woman assistant who looked and moved like me at her age. I saw her at a reunion gig, and she came up to me and said, "I'm the new you." She had heard all about me. So he had (or was wanting to have) that going on in addition to his wife. So I guess I shouldn't have been surprised about the swinging, but when I knew him and had worked with him at a record store, he was married, they seemed happy, but he did have female friends like me, though it was his wife who supposedly was the one who tried to cheat with friends of his. Probably she was picking up something about that out of town woman who was after him, I now realize.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There isn't a nice way for me to respond. I simply don't believe that's possible. It's important for me to point out that in my life I have been fed that line over and over and it was always a lie.
> 
> I also don't know how to convey that there's nothing wrong with sex just being something you do that feels good and having no emotional tie to it. Some people feel differently about sex than I do. That's fine. It's not a judgement to say that sex doesn't have any significance, it's just different people feeling different ways about different things.
> 
> We're not going to agree. As I said, I'm sure you all pity my poor husband stuck with me. I assure you, one word, one peep about wanting this and I would release him immediately to have all the sex he wants. I don't need alimony and I'd want him to stay a father to my son. If he doesn't want me any more, I'm not going to trap him.


Maybe I missed something somewhere I haven't read every posts, but I don't think anyone would suggest they pity people for have a traditional monogamous relationship. My wife and I have been together for 30 years married for 20. 25 years of our relationship have involved no participation in the lifestyle in anyway, been out of it now for like 4 years. When my wife I got married neither of us had been with anyone but each other so I have a strong appreciation for the specialness of that. 

I get it is hard to believe If I were you I probably wouldn't believe it either.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I get it is hard to believe If I were you I probably wouldn't believe it either.


I just don't. It makes no sense to me. I know you won't believe it, but it's not that I really think you're lying it's just that it makes no logical sense to me. My grandfather used to say, "All cats are grey in the dark." That we're monogamous meant I was special. If we're not, I'm just another gray cat. I'm not saying you can't have a relationship that's unrelated to sex that's loving and respectful. This is a hard subject for me, obviously.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> How do you all feel towards the couples you hook up with? Are you all friends? Do you compare stories with each other? Do you talk to the other couples about how much you like having sex with them and say stuff like they are the best? Does no one ever get jealous or have to deal with difficult emotions?
> 
> I was kinda hoping you’d answer my questions from before.
> 
> ...


We've hooked up with some couples once and never seen them again if they weren't a good match - or perhaps they were just visiting our area and didn't return. Others we saw repeatedly over a period of years. We had a group of about ten couples that hung out together every few weeks for years at various bars and clubs, or occasional house parties. They were friends, but only a few were really close. We traveled with a few, for up to a week, with lots of wild sex; this could be to a resort, or on several days touring the FL coast on their yacht (some of the doctors had really nice yachts!). We intervened to save one relationship where they had a falling out over an unrelated and silly issue - we were close for many years. Yes, we compared stories, but there is a code of discretion that most follow, so we didn't name names unless they were part of our close social group. Most swingers follow a moral code, but there are always a few self-serving people who will do almost anything to get laid. They get known fast and are shunned. Of course, they can keep doing what they do as there are always other people who aren't connected to a group like ours. No means no, and pushing too hard can get you kicked out of a club or party or group. In our group, we would talk to new people and gauge their interest and sincerity, and would discourage those who seemed unsure or if we thought it wasn't a totally consensual decision. We refused to play with some of these. Women are the drivers and decision makers, mostly. Without the women feeling safe and secure to pursue their sexuality and ultimately be in control of what happens, none of this works.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Holy shatballs. I completely agree with DownbytheRiver. 

Why bother with marriage? Why put up the facade for your children? It's like you are teaching them a lie - which gets back to my last question for you OldShirt a few days ago: Why keep this a secret from grown children? Don't you want them to know what you are like? Share with them how you roll? I do NOT consider the swinging lifestyle bad assuming one can handle it. I don't get why you would lie to adult children who are capable of understanding what it is and what it means.




oldshirt said:


> Anyhoo, as I have said at other points in the thread, I never meant for this to be a discussion about swinging itself per se but rather where there really topics that just the mere mention of would damage one's relationship or one's view of their spouse .
> 
> I have since learned that the answer to that for some people is YES.
> 
> ...


Maybe we are still at a misunderstanding. The tone of this post has me curious again. 

Who are the church people? 

Who is saying the swinging lifestyle is "bad". 

Who is actually *dumping* their spouse at the mere mention of swinging?! 

Yeah. I get the impression again that you look down upon couples where swinging is considered a VERY serious topic and has the *potential* of causing serious marital damage if not handled in the proper way. Please note I said "potential". You have determined that the mere mention of swinging in some couples is a "guaranteed" divorce with your last post. 

Are you pleased with yourself to get this information? Are you pleased that you are "above" that?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> We've hooked up with some couples once and never seen them again if they weren't a good match - or perhaps they were just visiting our area and didn't return. Others we saw repeatedly over a period of years. We had a group of about ten couples that hung out together every few weeks for years at various bars and clubs, or occasional house parties. They were friends, but only a few were really close. We traveled with a few, for up to a week, with lots of wild sex; this could be to a resort, or on several days touring the FL coast on their yacht (some of the doctors had really nice yachts!). We intervened to save one relationship where they had a falling out over an unrelated and silly issue - we were close for many years. Yes, we compared stories, but there is a code of discretion that most follow, so we didn't name names unless they were part of our close social group. Most swingers follow a moral code, but there are always a few self-serving people who will do almost anything to get laid. They get known fast and are shunned. Of course, they can keep doing what they do as there are always other people who aren't connected to a group like ours. No means no, and pushing too hard can get you kicked out of a club or party or group. In our group, we would talk to new people and gauge their interest and sincerity, and would discourage those who seemed unsure or if we thought it wasn't a totally consensual decision. We refused to play with some of these. Women are the drivers and decision makers, mostly. Without the women feeling safe and secure to pursue their sexuality and ultimately be in control of what happens, none of this works.


That was an EXCELLENT well thought answer. 

That would make me feel more comfortable around swingers if I knew them in real life. 

I assumed as with anything in life, some assholes out there will get selfish and try to ruin it for everyone. It's no different from having a very "pious" group of people only for some snake to play nice during the day then cheat on their spouse at night. That's good to know that bad actors are shunned. I am personally glad to know that you and your close community did feel genuine feelings for others and discourage couples who were not 100% ready or committed. I would hate for a couple that isn't fully committed get into something that they are not prepared for go over the edge and then realize they didn't want to.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's fair. I should have left the thread a while ago, there's really no value to my participating in this discussion. I've become a joke while they all laugh that my poor husband is trapped.


You know he isn't trapped, any more than mine is. 😊 Many men greatly value a faithful marriage.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> How do you all feel towards the couples you hook up with? Are you all friends? Do you compare stories with each other? Do you talk to the other couples about how much you like having sex with them and say stuff like they are the best? Does no one ever get jealous or have to deal with difficult emotions?
> 
> I was kinda hoping you’d answer my questions from before.
> 
> ...


These are some really important questions. 

My wife and I have never hooked up with another couple, we have met a bunch of couples exploring the idea but we are very picky and we both have to feel comfortable with both partners. We got into it as a means for my wife to explore her bisexuality and mainly focused on threesomes with other women. But the couples we did meet we became very friendly with. One couple in particular we met very early on and they became kind of mentors for us. They taught us a lot about the right way and wrong way to go about things. But generally outside of the bedroom lifestyle couples can share friendships just like anyone else not everything is about sex. 

My wife and I had only ever been with each other. That is part of what what interested us. I can't say how couples like us fair compared to people who had other partners before they got together. For us it has been all positive no negative. 

The question about a moral code, in my experience yes there is. For example when looking for a unicorn (single bisexual woman interested in couples) we always did quite a bit of vetting to make sure she wasn't stepping out on her husband. There was a few times we were speaking to women who said they we married but her husband was ok with her going on her own. When we suggested we talk to their husbands they vanished. 

Once we had some experience and education on the lifestyle we did meet a few couples who we told we thought they needed to slow down. There are a lot of things you need to think about, develop rules for certain situations. One couple was clearly trying to fix things in their marriage, we strongly advised them to stop and fix their marriage first. If you're trying to fix something in your relationship by swinging you will almost certainly only hasten it's demise. 

It might be because we are both slightly introverted most of the time but we have always found people on lifestyle dating sites. This allowed us to best check people out. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do bring it up to couples they know but based on all my experience there would need to be some indication there would be interest first. Again I'm sure there are some aggressive people out there who don't adhere to basic ethics but you don't want that reputation in the community. Also you said "my biggest fear of knowing swinger couples in real life", I promise you, you do, you just don't know you do. Don't be insulted they haven't approached you they just know you wouldn't be into it. LOL

The predatory couples are out there and once they have that reputation they are avoided mostly. We were at a club in Montreal one time and we were talking to a couple when an older guy come over to me and told me the couple we were talking to were known to be very unethical, they would do things like get to know a couple then try and talk just the wife into a threesome without the hubby. A little later the owner of the club came around and booted the couple and gave it to the doorman for letting them in. Nobody wants to be a part of destroying a marriage. Most people I know have a no sex on the first date rule. One general rule throughout the community is no means no. It is considered very unethical to try and talk people into it in any way. 

You never know with people. Like I said I am sure you do know people in the lifestyle, the slow manipulation is something I'm sure occurs but the ones you know have not tried it on you yet, so you know ethical ones. 

Another misconception is swingers are all sex crazed horny all the time freaks. That isn't the case there might be a slightly higher average sex drive with lifestyle couples but generally not really any different than monogamous couples. There are extremes in all things. 

And finally I always say most couples should not try swinging. There is a certain mind set lifestyle couples seem to have I can't really describe it but it's there. Nothing better or worse than monogamous couples just different. It is not something to take lightly with a cavalier attitude, and it has to be explored at a snails pace IMO.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well that seems unnecessarily cruel. I said I would let him go, I can't imagine why he'd be so angry that he'd want to do that. I don't think he would force me to sit there and watch while they all point and laugh.


I was being silly. I feel like I can confidently say your husband isn't looking to head to any swinger parties anytime soon. I get the feeling from some of your posts you are doubting yourself or something. You keep bringing up people saying stuff about your husband being stuck with you, which I might have missed it but I don't remember seeing anyone even alluding to that. From the posts of yours I have read it doesn't really sound like you have anything to worry about.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> #1: which gets back to my last question for you OldShirt a few days ago: Why keep this a secret from grown children?
> 
> #2: Don't you want them to know what you are like?
> 
> ...


#1: Really?? You're actually going to sit there and ask that? Do you tell your kids what you did in bed last night? Do you tell your kids what sexual activities and stuff you are into?? C'mon, at least try to be reasonable here. 

#2: What we are like??? Even Diana hasn't ever been that insulting or judgemental in all the years she and I have gone back and forth. They know what we are like because we have been nothing but loving and supportive parents who have always been there for them since the day they were born just like any other parents that didn't happen to swing. That's what we are like. 

#3. If you have to ask..........

#4: see #3. 

#5: Not my call either way what people will or will not do. I am just going off of the people who have said, "if my partner ever asks me *____*, I will *___*." That was their statements, not mine. Ask them. 

#6: You haven't believed me the last 5 times I have tried to address that question so I guess you will think what you will. That is on you. I do not believe I am "above" anything or anyone. But obviously you do so think what you will.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Holy shatballs. I completely agree with DownbytheRiver.
> 
> Why bother with marriage? Why put up the facade for your children? It's like you are teaching them a lie - which gets back to my last question for you OldShirt a few days ago: Why keep this a secret from grown children? Don't you want them to know what you are like? Share with them how you roll? I do NOT consider the swinging lifestyle bad assuming one can handle it. I don't get why you would lie to adult children who are capable of understanding what it is and what it means.
> 
> ...


Well said. Who divorces over a swing suggestion? Nobody. Ever


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> These are some really important questions.
> 
> My wife and I have never hooked up with another couple, we have met a bunch of couples exploring the idea but we are very picky and we both have to feel comfortable with both partners. We got into it as a means for my wife to explore her bisexuality and mainly focused on threesomes with other women. But the couples we did meet we became very friendly with. One couple in particular we met very early on and they became kind of mentors for us. They taught us a lot about the right way and wrong way to go about things. But generally outside of the bedroom lifestyle couples can share friendships just like anyone else not everything is about sex.
> 
> ...


So you and your wife are each others first sexual partner. Have your threesomes only ever been with women? Has you wife ever been with another man?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So you and your wife are each others first sexual partner. Have your threesomes only ever been with women? Has you wife ever been with another man?


Yes only ever threesomes with other women. We did explore swapping, my wife is much pickier about men than women. Did meet plenty of cool couples we are still friends with and will meet up with for drinks/lunches and dinners. She did for a while have a fantasy of a masseur giving her a happy ending massage, but that never happened and one of our rules is always together.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Longtime Hubby said:


> The ocassional “shtupping” May be fun. Again, it’s up to each couple. What works for one couple may not for another. I know we talk about it. Have not done it. Who knows about the future?


As the facts show...if one is screwing someone other than their spouse...they are no longer in a faithful relationship...Plain and simple...whether they are fine with screwing others or not.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> These are some really important questions.
> 
> My wife and I have never hooked up with another couple, we have met a bunch of couples exploring the idea but we are very picky and we both have to feel comfortable with both partners. We got into it as a means for my wife to explore her bisexuality and mainly focused on threesomes with other women. But the couples we did meet we became very friendly with. One couple in particular we met very early on and they became kind of mentors for us. They taught us a lot about the right way and wrong way to go about things. But generally outside of the bedroom lifestyle couples can share friendships just like anyone else not everything is about sex.
> 
> ...


Again, another excellent answer. It definitely makes me personally feel better that most of the community isn’t all about the sex and absolutely do care if they were to destroy someone’s marriage over some sex. That would be awful!!!

lol. So how do swingers figure out that I definitely would not be into it?! Do they just look at me and know? That’s pretty much what would have to happen. I’m very introverted and do NOT like anyone speaking to me. 😁 they are gonna have to figure it out on looks alone. I will say this: things would end very poorly if my wife was propositioned in my presence. I’m a fairly large man. Think @ConanHub if you’ve taken a look at his mug. 😂

I mean, I get. Everyone says the same thing. You know swingers and you just don’t know it. Maybe. Maybe not. I truly do live in LameVille, USA and I LOVE IT. nice and boring and normal - but normal is not the correct word to use here. I don’t mean normal as insulting. I mean it as in “not out of the ordinary”. So maybe there are freaks in the sheets in my neighborhood? Don’t know. If I went to base level…. I’d still rather have my wife. She is better looking than all the women in the neighborhood and has a bigger and better rack. Just the way it is. I hear I’m no slouch…. But hell if I know. I can’t tell attractiveness in men unless they are ugly or beautiful. So that would be another thing I’d have to contend with. I don’t think I’d be interested in getting with a woman less attractive than my wife. If I could really find a way to compartmentalize my feelings, I damn well better match up with someone on the same level. It just wouldn’t be worth it to me otherwise.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yes only ever threesomes with other women. We did explore swapping, my wife is much pickier about men than women. Did meet plenty of cool couples we are still friends with and will meet up with for drinks/lunches and dinners. She did for a while have a fantasy of a masseur giving her a happy ending massage, but that never happened and one of our rules is always together.


I assume you are okay with her having sex with another guy so long as you are with her, correct? It doesn't bother you that you would no longer be the only man to have had PIV with your wife? Kind of go where no man has gone before kind of thing, or where no other man has gone in the case, lol. That's the part I really would have trouble with. I'm not okay with lesser intimate contact either, but for me the act of penetration is on a different level. Is it safe to assume you always use condoms? 

Also thank you for answer the barrage of questions. I'm a curious person and this isn't a topic that comes up on a typical day at the office.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Again, another excellent answer. It definitely makes me personally feel better that most of the community isn’t all about the sex and absolutely do care if they were to destroy someone’s marriage over some sex. That would be awful!!!
> 
> lol. So how do swingers figure out that I definitely would not be into it?! Do they just look at me and know? That’s pretty much what would have to happen. I’m very introverted and do NOT like anyone speaking to me. 😁 they are gonna have to figure it out on looks alone. I will say this: things would end very poorly if my wife was propositioned in my presence. I’m a fairly large man. Think @ConanHub if you’ve taken a look at his mug. 😂
> 
> I mean, I get. Everyone says the same thing. You know swingers and you just don’t know it. Maybe. Maybe not. I truly do live in LameVille, USA and I LOVE IT. nice and boring and normal - but normal is not the correct word to use here. I don’t mean normal as insulting. I mean it as in “not out of the ordinary”. So maybe there are freaks in the sheets in my neighborhood? Don’t know. If I went to base level…. I’d still rather have my wife. She is better looking than all the women in the neighborhood and has a bigger and better rack. Just the way it is. I hear I’m no slouch…. But hell if I know. I can’t tell attractiveness in men unless they are ugly or beautiful. So that would be another thing I’d have to contend with. I don’t think I’d be interested in getting with a woman less attractive than my wife. If I could really find a way to compartmentalize my feelings, I damn well better match up with someone on the same level. It just wouldn’t be worth it to me otherwise.


Hey. I'm just average height and petite, a little mouse flower of a man.😉

We have been approached but it was the woman complimenting Mrs. Conan and testing the waters so it wasn't threatening. The man just hung back with a beer and was talking BBQ with me and sports


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> #1: Really?? You're actually going to sit there and ask that? Do you tell your kids what you did in bed last night? Do you tell your kids what sexual activities and stuff you are into?? C'mon, at least try to be reasonable here.
> 
> #2: What we are like??? Even Diana hasn't ever been that insulting or judgemental in all the years she and I have gone back and forth. They know what we are like because we have been nothing but loving and supportive parents who have always been there for them since the day they were born just like any other parents that didn't happen to swing. That's what we are like.
> 
> ...


who are the church people? Only one I saw was Diana…. Or did you assume there was more?

who did say swinging was “bad”? Diana? Maybe? I’ll have to re-read. I saw a lot of people disagree with the lifestyle. I’ll have to re-read to see if someone called it “bad”.

as for your #5… you are 100% deflecting.

your statement before was “at the mere mention of swinging, I will dump my spouse.” Why are you changing from that statement? Why is it now “if my partner ever asks me blank I will blank.” Those are two very different statements. 

#1 and #2. Feels like another deflection. You have that way with words. 😂. Maybe I just completely misinterpreting, but damn you sound condescending. I will ABSOLUTELY tell my children when they get older and can understand sex and relationships that I chose to be with their mother and only have a romantic sexual relationship with their mother. Hell yes I will tell them this. It is important to me that I pass along my values to them. If they choose their own path, so be it. I’ll support them. You’ve twisted this around to “telling kids what you’ve done in the bedroom”. I’m not talking about specifics.

if you were insulted and felt judged by my “what you are like” comment, not my intent, but then again, that is what you’ve been saying this whole time every time you’ve doled out insults and judgements.

what I meant by “telling them what you are like” means telling them that you and and your spouse are cool with sharing yourselves with other people. Other couples. Whatever. They don’t need to know what is going on in the bedroom. I think it is important for children to know the values of the parents. I do think adult children should know if their parents believe a marriage is for something more than monogamy. I do believe that adult children should know if their mother and father are being shared with other couples while they are still married. 
Let’s say this: you have a son or daughter who is getting married. They come to you distraught. Their future spouse wants to have an open marriage and start swinging. Your son or daughter are on the fence. Will you impart your knowledge on them? Let them know you also do it and that the lifestyle is very enjoyable or will you still prefer not sharing with them?

lastly, you actually convinced me that you weren’t judgmental and above others with your excellent levels of communication, then you came back today with more condescension. You are correct, I don’t believe you when you say you aren’t condescending.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Hey. I'm just average height and petite, a little mouse flower of a man.😉
> 
> We have been approached but it was the woman complimenting Mrs. Conan and testing the waters so it wasn't threatening. The man just hung back with a beer and was talking BBQ with me and sports


It was actually your “gains” photo that told me I had to get back in the gym. It’s one of my genetic traits. I can actually build muscle very fast.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Again, another excellent answer. It definitely makes me personally feel better that most of the community isn’t all about the sex and absolutely do care if they were to destroy someone’s marriage over some sex. That would be awful!!!
> 
> lol. So how do swingers figure out that I definitely would not be into it?! Do they just look at me and know? That’s pretty much what would have to happen. I’m very introverted and do NOT like anyone speaking to me. 😁 they are gonna have to figure it out on looks alone. I will say this: things would end very poorly if my wife was propositioned in my presence. I’m a fairly large man. Think @ConanHub if you’ve taken a look at his mug. 😂
> 
> I mean, I get. Everyone says the same thing. You know swingers and you just don’t know it. Maybe. Maybe not. I truly do live in LameVille, USA and I LOVE IT. nice and boring and normal - but normal is not the correct word to use here. I don’t mean normal as insulting. I mean it as in “not out of the ordinary”. So maybe there are freaks in the sheets in my neighborhood? Don’t know. If I went to base level…. I’d still rather have my wife. She is better looking than all the women in the neighborhood and has a bigger and better rack. Just the way it is. I hear I’m no slouch…. But hell if I know. I can’t tell attractiveness in men unless they are ugly or beautiful. So that would be another thing I’d have to contend with. I don’t think I’d be interested in getting with a woman less attractive than my wife. If I could really find a way to compartmentalize my feelings, I damn well better match up with someone on the same level. It just wouldn’t be worth it to me otherwise.


We have never instigated anything in the wild. All the couples we met we met online or at a club. We did meet a couple at a strip club once. I will say we would never consider discussing anything lifestyle related with people we know in the real world. And people we know in the real world would be completely blown away to find out about us, like totally shocked. 

People would need to get to know you fairly well and would probably ask some things to get a sense if you're the adventurous types before ever considering approaching you on the topic. It's not like people in the lifestyle are scanning every crowd looking for people to play with. Plus like @Married but Happy said the ladies usually run the show so its those ladies walking around carrying pineapples upside down you have have to keep an eye on LOL.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I assume you are okay with her having sex with another guy so long as you are with her, correct? It doesn't bother you that you would no longer be the only man to have had PIV with your wife? Kind of go where no man has gone before kind of thing, or where no other man has gone in the case, lol. That's the part I really would have trouble with. I'm not okay with lesser intimate contact either, but for me the act of penetration is on a different level. Is it safe to assume you always use condoms?
> 
> Also thank you for answer the barrage of questions. I'm a curious person and this isn't a topic that comes up on a typical day at the office.


I would be if that was her interest. If you had asked me that 15 years ago or even when we first started I would have said hell no but you get more comfortable with things and seeing I have had PIV with a fair number of women with her it's only fair. Of course in those situations she was enjoying the women as much or more than me and that would definitely not be the same scenario with another guy. If that was going to happen it would be a couple situation. Yes Condoms are always used which was interesting because the first threesome we had I hadn't used a condom in like 15 years or so.


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## Davit Bek (Sep 9, 2021)

I fail to see how any self-respecting man would open their marriage up making it vulnerable to destruction, and many other possible problems highlighted in a few posts. Controlling your urge for sexual novelty seems to be a much better option specially when there are children involved. Plus, do some men have no pride? Being ok with someone else penetrating your wife is something I'll never understand. 

I think it's extremely difficult to successfully and for a long period of time separate sex from the emotional bonding aspect. And if you have somehow managed it, I fail to see how that's a positive thing. Doesn't "sex is just sex" demonstrate that non-monogamous couples can't share the same bond as they have now removed the bonding experience from sex? That's if the sex was collaborative experience rather than using the partner's body as a masturbation vessel.

There are certainly non-monogomous couples that are content with their relationship but I'd dare to predict on the long run, there will be many more of them that either close their relationship back up or drive into the ground. Success in this lifestyle is the exception rather than the rule. I don't see how swinging can lead to anything good, long term. Although, I do understand that sex might increase for a few weeks as one is more turned on by the novelty the experience.

I'm happy to say that I do judge and that's how I make decisions. I can't understand the trend of people thinking they're above judgment. I'm more than happy to be judged as well, and have people call me out. I'll either learn from it, respond to it, or ignore it. But regardless, I'll be fine.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There isn't a nice way for me to respond. I simply don't believe that's possible. It's important for me to point out that in my life I have been fed that line over and over and it was always a lie.
> 
> I also don't know how to convey that there's nothing wrong with sex just being something you do that feels good and having no emotional tie to it. Some people feel differently about sex than I do. That's fine. It's not a judgement to say that sex doesn't have any significance, it's just different people feeling different ways about different things.
> 
> We're not going to agree. As I said, I'm sure you all pity my poor husband stuck with me. I assure you, one word, one peep about wanting this and I would release him immediately to have all the sex he wants. I don't need alimony and I'd want him to stay a father to my son. If he doesn't want me any more, I'm not going to trap him.


I don't think anyone here has said your husband is pitied because he's stuck with you. Imo he sounds like a lucky man for the most part, and you the same, lucky woman for the most part.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I have observed here over a very long period of time that people here who are into things like porn, swinging, more than one spouse, BDSM etc are treated with much greater patience and respect than those who are in 100% faithful marriages. Seems odd to me but it's not entirely a surprise.


Can't say anything about the porn users as they are a much larger grouping, but for the most part the majority of us swingers, polys, and those into BDSM post with patience and respect, so we get it in return. For those who are of the "love the sin not the sinner" mindset, that is rather par for course. That doesn't mean that we don't disagree with points others make, but we are, again for the most part, not rude about it when we do.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I actually think less attractive people are more likely to be swingers because they crave variety and aren't able to get it easily like attractive people.


So how do you figure that when attraction is a subjective thing? Unless you mean those less attractive to you?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> I guess that's one way to look at it. *Most swingers are married*, though, and (attractive) married people also have the constraints of being married so maybe can't get the variety another way without cheating. Swinging is consensual, solving that problem.


The definition of swinger included married. It's changed a little since it's original use, where swinging meant that both people were married, and it usually involved both members of both couples. Nowadays swinging tends to mean that at least one of the two (or more) is a married person. Maybe in the future it will just mean open relationship regardless of whether there is a marriage anywhere or not.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Can't say anything about the porn users as they are a much larger grouping, but for the most part the majority of us swingers, polys, and those into BDSM post with patience and respect, so we get it in return. For those who are of the "love the sin not the sinner" mindset, that is rather par for course. That doesn't mean that we don't disagree with points others make, but we are, again for the most part, not rude about it when we do.


Most people here aren't rude. I hate rudeness and personal attacks. Disagreeing about something and greatly valuing faithful sex in marriage and saying so isn't judging of course. I guess as a Christian my decisions are largely based on what God says, although my values on marriage and faithfulness predate my faith. Even as a teen I knew these things.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know you're not a fan of me, but I do completely agree with you on this point. The non-monogamous are sensitive and defensive about their choices. And there is more than a hint of condescension in their interactions, whether consciously or not, that makes it clear they view the monogamous as less sophisticated and evolved than they are.


I would say that such is probably a bias or your part, or the few interactions that you have had are those few people who are of that attitude. I have certainly encountered many monogamous people with that attitude. Even here, despite Diane's claim of kid gloves, there has been plenty of condescension towards non-monogamy, and even outright calling of non-monogamy as less sophisticated and evolved, even if not placed in those words. For the most part, those who are non-monogamous do not seek to make our lifestyle as any better than monogamy. Maybe better for given individuals, but not as an overall.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Most people here aren't rude. I hate rudeness and personal attacks. Disagreeing about something and greatly valuing faithful sex in marriage and saying so isn't judging of course. I guess as a Christian my decisions are largely based on what God says, although my values on marriage and faithfulness predate my faith. Even as a teen I knew these things.


So then how do you translate that into we are treated with kid gloves?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean, we've had posts on here in the past about women whose husbands took them to a swingers place without their consent or were pressuring them, so it's not always consensual, but sometimes certainly.


True enough, and for the most part, us swingers and polys have called them out on it when we come across the thread.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can honestly understand this mindset MUCH better than a monogamous relationship turning to swinging later on.
> 
> If I went into a relationship from the start knowing it was poly, I wouldn't catch the same "kind" of feels that I would in a monogamous relationship. Like I said before, my mind is already set. I belong to my wife. She belongs to me. Any change in that at this point would result in a divorce. If I was poly from the start, I can see having love for the other spouse but not that same sense of belonging. I think emotionally it would be less taxing to be poly from the start.


And that is how it should be. But there is always the bit about people lying to themselves or surprising what they are, for whatever reason. That is how many gays ended up in opposite sex marriages. So there has to be some accounting for that. The trick is separating out the people who really were doing that, from those who claim it as an excuse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> So then how do you translate that into we are treated with kid gloves?


Its what I have observed over a period of time. Its as if some are afraid to challenge you and others for fear of being thought of as 'closed minded' . Which is crazy of course. Asking you more about your art seems to make some feel as if they are open sexually.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Davit Bek said:


> I fail to see how any self-respecting man would open their marriage up making it vulnerable to destruction, and many other possible problems highlighted in a few posts. Controlling your urge for sexual novelty seems to be a much better option specially when there are children involved. Plus, do some men have no pride? Being ok with someone else penetrating your wife is something I'll never understand.
> 
> I think it's extremely difficult to successfully and for a long period of time separate sex from the emotional bonding aspect. And if you have somehow managed it, I fail to see how that's a positive thing. Doesn't "sex is just sex" demonstrate that non-monogamous couples can't share the same bond as they have now removed the bonding experience from sex? That's if the sex was collaborative experience rather than using the partner's body as a masturbation vessel.
> 
> ...


You did a great job expressing some of my feelings on this. It seems like you are playing with fire. In fact you jumped right into the fire hoping you won't get burned. It seems like a huge and completely unnecessary risk to your marriage. If there are kids involved I don't see how you can take that chance in good conscience. You can't take this back once it happens. 

There is a strong biological component of sex, beyond procreation. There are hormones released that bond the people engaged in sex. Even if it is for just a short time that bonding effect is happening between you or your spouse and someone else. That just seems so wrong in my mind and far too risky. 

I trust my wife, I really do. I'm confident our bond is strong. Even if I could get past the act of another man kissing, touching all parts of her body and penetrating her (which I never will) I don't want her bonding in any way with another man. I feel like I would be giving away a part of her that I could never get back. Likewise I would be giving away something previously only for her to another person. I will never want to do that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You did a great job expressing some of my feelings on this. It seems like you are playing with fire. In fact you jumped right into the fire hoping you won't get burned. It seems like a huge and completely unnecessary risk to your marriage. If there are kids involved I don't see how you can take that chance in good conscience. You can't take this back once it happens.
> 
> There is a strong biological component of sex, beyond procreation. There are hormones released that bond the people engaged in sex. Even if it is for just a short time that bonding effect is happening between you or your spouse and someone else. That just seems so wrong in my mind and far too risky.
> 
> I trust my wife, I really do. I'm confident our bond is strong. Even if I could get past the act of another man kissing, touching all parts of her body and penetrating her (which I never will) I don't want her bonding in any way with another man. I feel like I would be giving away a part of her that I could never get back. Likewise I would be giving away something previously only for her to another person. I will never want to do that.


It would irretrievably change the marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> It would irretrievably change the marriage.


Absolutely. We have examples here that say it can work from the standpoint that they are still together and even happy together, but their marriage has permanently changed course. Things like having children change to course of a marriage too, but that is usually planned and pretty much expected in a marriage. Deciding to go from a monogamous marriage to open is like doing a full u-turn in the relationship.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am actually surprised that people here are surprised by those who greatly value faithfulness and monogamy would be upset about their spouse suddenly proposing adultery. 
Again, it would greatly change the whole course of the marriage and the values they both shared and on which their while marriage was based would be shattered. Trust would be gone. Respect as well probably. The person they thought their spouse was they weren't any longer. 

In the thread that started this where the husband proposed swinging after such a long marriage, I so wish his wife had said no. She was initially upset so it was clearly a shock. Sadly she eventually went along with it and his life has become tormented.
Such a sad story and what a strong warning to others of what not to do.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Do the couple still truly love each other deeply?


Only the couple can answer that? Any claim that anyone else has is supposition on their part



> When the husband is plowing away on some other woman, is he thinking, "You know, I truly and deeply love my wife.". When his wife is riding away on top of some other man, is she thinking, "I truly love the deep emotional connection I have with my husband.".


Do they think these things all the time when engaged in other activities? While it may pop into our head randomly at times, for the most part none of us are thinking this all the time about our spouses. Doesn't mean we love them any less for it.



> I personally cannot separate these two things. The physical act of sex and the deep emotional love/connection for just one other person. I can't just put that into a box for 30 minutes and then feel it again after having sex with someone else.


That doesn't mean others can't. It's one of the reasons why those of us experienced in the various lifestyles will note that it isn't for everyone, and not everyone can do it. All we actually ask for is not to be put down or denigrated because of it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I am actually surprised that people here are surprised by those who greatly value faithfulness and monogamy would be upset about their spouse suddenly proposing adultery.
> Again, it would greatly change the whole course of the marriage and the values they both shared and on which their while marriage was based would be shattered. Trust would be gone. Respect as well probably. The person they thought their spouse was they weren't any longer.
> 
> In the thread that started this where the husband proposed swinging after such a long marriage, I so wish his wife had said no. She was initially upset so it was clearly a shock. Sadly she eventually went along with it and his life has become tormented.
> Such a sad story and what a strong warning to others of what not to do.


Yes, getting back to the topic of this thread, some topics are just so far out there from the perspective of those engaged in the conversation that it can change how you feel about the person. My wife and I have great communication as far as I am concerned, but I would be just as surprised by my wife suggesting we start swinging as I would by her suggesting we commit a heinous crime like murder. Obviously swinging and murder aren't even close to being on the same level. However, I do have equal expectation of them being suggested by my wife, which is zero expectation.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> So how do you figure that when attraction is a subjective thing? Unless you mean those less attractive to you?


Snap!

In a kind and good hearted way though I'm sure. @maquiscat has always been considerate and compassionate. 

I did chuckle.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Its what I have observed over a period of time. Its as if some are afraid to challenge you and others for fear of being thought of as 'closed minded' . Which is crazy of course. Asking you more about your art seems to make some feel as if they are open sexually.


I think this thread is a perfect example of how people who are different when it comes to sexual preferences are NOT treated with kid gloves, but with suspicion and almost willful misunderstanding at times.

I've never seen what you are describing on here, or in real life...mostly, I've seen the opposite.

If people don't want to challenge others, you could be very wrong assuming their intent. Maybe they are simply uninterested or don't feel a need to argue with others. Maybe they are accepting of differences or just want to be KIND to another person. Not everyone wants to "call out" the people they disagree with...for some people it's not worth it or they don't have a need to assert their perceived superiority over others.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Here's a thought experiment that gets this thread (somewhat) back on track to the original question.

In Old Shirt's original post of this thread, I am convinced he is implying that swinger couples have more or "better" communication than a monogamous relationship. While this may be true for some, I don't think it is true for everyone. 

Let's use one of his examples when he first started to discuss why he hides the swinger lifestyle from everyone.

Let's use the hypothetical situation that Old Shirt and I are neighbors. He said he would be worried about me hitting on his wife if I knew that they were swingers. This is due to her high level of attractiveness of being a model or in beauty contests. Something of that nature. Sure. Fine. He doesn't know me personally so maybe someone like me would do that. 

Personally, I would be skeptical that Old Shirt would be the minority type of swinger that I worry about due to his intelligence and very careful use of words that look very much like condescension. I would be wondering if that would spill over into manipulation. I would be more concerned that he would be careful and would do a very slow manipulation (months. possibly years) on either me or my wife into the swinging lifestyle. No one is above being manipulated and someone that is willing to put in a lot of time and effort can certainly plant seeds in the heads of others and make them grow over a long period of time. Other swingers in this thread have been very honest and candid and didn't give me the same impression. I would feel considerably more comfortable in their presence. 


Now here is where things get funny for me.


Why, Old Shirt, would you be worried about me hitting on your wife? What happened to the high level, super communication? Assuming that level of communication existed (and I'm taking your word for it that it does) and EVERYTHING is talked about between you two, here is what I think would happen:

1. She would immediately turn me down for being a pig (as well as she should. It's disgusting to hit on someone else's spouse regardless if they choose to be monogamous or in a swinging marriage. This of course is hypothetical. I would never do this). 

2. Due to the high level of honesty and communication, she would immediately go back to Old Shirt and tell him that I hit on her so that they can watch out for me in the future. 


So where does this worry come from? Why, Old Shirt, would you worry about other men hitting on your wife if your communication level is so open and honest? Everything can be discussed and should be discussed? There should be a level of comfort between spouses so that anything can be talked about, correct? If so, that means your wife would immediately come to you to communicate if any man had hit on her. 


Now, I will admit that my marriage doesn't have as much communication as I would prefer. I'm more confrontational while my wife is very much avoidant. She is extremely reserved and likes to keep to herself. This is another reason why my skepticism would raise immediately if she were to ever bring up swinging to me. I'm not going to dump her immediately, but I am definitely going to be observing closely her behaviors and other actions for a period of time until I feel like it was simply a question of curiosity as opposed to something more.

Now, wouldn't you know it, my wife DOES tell me every time a man hits on her. I don't ask. She just comes to me. She prefers if I know this information so that I can look out for certain men that do not respect our marriage. Can't say there has ever been a repeat performance from the same man if that has happened once the other man knows that I know (again, think ConanHub but Italian. Big-ass nose and jet black hair 🤣 ).

I am not worried about other men hitting on my wife because I know that our communication in this area is strong and she will tell me if someone is bothering her. 

Does that mean the communication in my marriage is better than Old Shirts?


*I believe that answer to be "No".* It's just different - something I've been trying to get across from the start. Everyone's marriage here is different. We all know our spouses tendencies. We all know what would be wildly out of character for them to ask us and what would be more normal for our relationships.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this thread is a perfect example of how people who are different when it comes to sexual preferences are NOT treated with kid gloves, but with suspicion and almost willful misunderstanding at times.
> 
> I've never seen what you are describing on here, or in real life...mostly, I've seen the opposite.
> 
> If people don't want to challenge others, you could be very wrong assuming their intent. Maybe they are simply uninterested or don't feel a need to argue with others. Maybe they are accepting of differences or just want to be KIND to another person. Not everyone wants to "call out" the people they disagree with...for some people it's not worth it or they don't have a need to assert their perceived superiority over others.


Sometimes some pick things up that others dont. I am not the only one who has noticed this.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@LATERILUS79 I can't speak for @oldshirt but I don't think he was worried about you hitting on his wife and her taking you up on it. I think it is that people may think because she is a swinger she is easy and will sleep with anyone. That could get her a lot of unwanted attention and could even lead to assault in the worst case. Have you seen the movie Pretty Woman? I'm in no way calling his wife a prostitute, but in that movie Gere's business partner finds out his GF is a prostitute and he figures she should just give it up to him too. I can definitely understand that concern. Yet another issue to add to the risks and concerns about this lifestyle. It further reinforces my stance. Not only are you risking your marriage, but you are adding risk your wife's personal safety.

Bottom line on the original topic is I don't think swingers have any better communication than monogamous partners just because they are swingers. I don't see how looser sexual conduct standards equals better communication.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> Only the couple can answer that? Any claim that anyone else has is supposition on their part
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good answers. Thank you for your reply.

i honestly would like a better understanding of the mindset, but I think it is too difficult for me to understand. Again, I think I would have needed to have multiple sexual partners prior to marriage in order to have the correct mindset to understand a swinging marriage. Since I don’t, I simply can’t allow another man to penetrate my wife.

my mind is all over the place (I have severe adhd). I do in fact think about my wife in some way every 5 minutes or so regardless of what activity I’m doing. to be fair, I think about everything else in the world every 5 minutes as well. 😂

I understand not wanting to be looked down upon for your lifestyle. I also agree with you. I definitely do not. At the same token, I would prefer not to be looked down upon either as being less enlightened or unable to have as open of communication as someone in a swinging relationship. Just to be clear, you have never given me that impression.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I see your point, @LATERILUS79, I think. I also see what @oldshirt is getting at. My experience is that men would hit on my wife anywhere, and neighbors were definitely no exception. We didn't let neighbors know we were swingers for that reason, because those who don't know about swinging just assume it means randomly promiscuous, and they can freely make advances. It's bad enough when people don't know, but far worse when they do and make unwarranted assumptions. And it didn't matter if they were married; heck, sometimes a neighbor would openly be suggestive with my wife with his wife standing next to him! Now this was when we lived in the southeast, and it may be different in other areas.

We also avoided swingers who lived nearby (within several blocks, at least), if we knew or found out where they lived before any contact was made. If things don't go well or they're one of the few pushy or unethical types, we wouldn't want to be running into them regularly! IMO, it's rare for swingers to try to manipulate someone into participating, and that goes double for a neighbor because of the potential problems. Why bother when there are so many other willing participants? Of course, there are always some exceptions who are both stupid and predatory, and it's not just swingers - e.g., like the neighbor who hit on my wife in front of his spouse.

Anyway, you're right about how most swingers would handle it if a neighbor was making advances. In some cases my wife would talk to his wife, and that would be the end of it. (Ah, I see @BigDaddyNY made some of the same points I'm trying to make, while I was writing this.)

As for communication, I think poly people need to develop (and many have) superior communication skills in the specific area of managing multiple relationships. Monogamous couples may have the social norms to fall back on for what is expected for behavior, boundaries, roles, etc., whereas larger groups usually have to figure it out as they go.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @LATERILUS79 I can't speak for @oldshirt but I don't think he was worried about you hitting on his wife and her taking you up on it. I think it is that people may think because she is a swinger she is easy and will sleep with anyone. That could get her a lot of unwanted attention and could even lead to assault in the worst case. Have you seen the movie Pretty Woman? I'm in no way calling his wife a prostitute, but in that movie Gere's business partner finds out his GF is a prostitute and he figures she should just give it up to him too. I can definitely understand that concern. Yet another issue to add to the risks and concerns about this lifestyle. It further reinforces my stance. Not only are you risking your marriage, but you are adding risk your wife's personal safety.
> 
> Bottom line on the original topic is I don't think swingers have any better communication than monogamous partners just because they are swingers. I don't see how looser sexual conduct standards equals better communication.


That is a fair assessment. One that didn't come to my mind immediately. I could see how that is a possibility.

I still stand by my argument in my post - which is similar to yours. You don't believe that swingers have better communication than a monogamous relationship. I believe you are correct. I believe the communication among spouses is just different. Some things will throw up red flags and some will not. 

Assuming a "pretty woman" situation did not occur and it was simply a neighbor propositioning his wife, I would expect a completely open and honest communication style would lead her to tell him immediately. In my monogamous marriage, my wife does in fact tell me immediately if another man hits on her.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I see your point, @LATERILUS79, I think. I also see what @oldshirt is getting at. My experience is that men would hit on my wife anywhere, and neighbors were definitely no exception. We didn't let neighbors know we were swingers for that reason, because those who don't know about swinging just assume it means randomly promiscuous, and they can freely make advances. It's bad enough when people don't know, but far worse when they do and make unwarranted assumptions. And it didn't matter if they were married; heck, sometimes a neighbor would openly be suggestive with my wife with his wife standing next to him! Now this was when we lived in the southeast, and it may be different in other areas.
> 
> We also avoided swingers who lived nearby (within several blocks, at least), if we knew or found out where they lived before any contact was made. If things don't go well or they're one of the few pushy or unethical types, we wouldn't want to be running into them regularly! IMO, it's rare for swingers to try to manipulate someone into participating, and that goes double for a neighbor because of the potential problems. Why bother when there are so many other willing participants? Of course, there are always some exceptions who are both stupid and predatory, and it's not just swingers - e.g., like the neighbor who hit on my wife in front of his spouse.
> 
> ...


Another good, honest post. 

I see your points. 

What I gather from them is what I've been trying to hit home in my posts. Even though you used the word "superior" you describe what I'm calling as "different". I don't see it as a superior way of communicating. I see it as different. Not better. Not worse.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> So how do you figure that when attraction is a subjective thing? Unless you mean those less attractive to you?


Why would someone who just thinks anyone is attractive and is always horny and seeking out sex even get married?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Another good, honest post.
> 
> I see your points.
> 
> What I gather from them is what I've been trying to hit home in my posts. Even though you used the word "superior" you describe what I'm calling as "different". I don't see it as a superior way of communicating. I see it as different. Not better. Not worse.


Agreed. Its not superior communication.
Everyone here has things that if their spouse said would shake their marriage and cause them to rethink if they should be married to that person.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Another good, honest post.
> 
> I see your points.
> 
> What I gather from them is what I've been trying to hit home in my posts. Even though you used the word "superior" you describe what I'm calling as "different". I don't see it as a superior way of communicating. I see it as different. Not better. Not worse.


Agreed. Its not superior communication.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I definitely do not doubt this. I fail to see the level of closeness though if you are able to share yourself with others. I think the love and connection is lessened.


Think of it this way. Does your love and level of closeness lessen to your first child when you have your second? Or with a friends when you have another friend?



> I just think the emotional connection is gone. Or at least, it would be for me for sure.


And that is understandable. But it not mean it will be gone for others.



> another one of the mind F situations in my head is “which animalistic feeling is ok and which one isn’t?”[/QUOTES]
> 
> That is a question that can only be answered by you and your partner(s), as long as all involved are in agreement
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @LATERILUS79 I can't speak for @oldshirt but I don't think he was worried about you hitting on his wife and her taking you up on it. I think it is that people may think because she is a swinger she is easy and will sleep with anyone. That could get her a lot of unwanted attention and could even lead to assault in the worst case. Have you seen the movie Pretty Woman? I'm in no way calling his wife a prostitute, but in that movie Gere's business partner finds out his GF is a prostitute and he figures she should just give it up to him too. I can definitely understand that concern.


Yes, this above. 

There are so many myths and misunderstandings around the swinger world and at the top of the list is that it is a free for all where everyone screws everyone and anyone is down for anything with anyone at anytime. 

Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> I see your point, @LATERILUS79, I think. I also see what @oldshirt is getting at. My experience is that men would hit on my wife anywhere, and neighbors were definitely no exception. We didn't let neighbors know we were swingers for that reason, because those who don't know about swinging just assume it means randomly promiscuous, and they can freely make advances. It's bad enough when people don't know, but far worse when they do and make unwarranted assumptions. And it didn't matter if they were married; heck, sometimes a neighbor would openly be suggestive with my wife with his wife standing next to him! Now this was when we lived in the southeast, and it may be different in other areas.
> 
> We also avoided swingers who lived nearby (within several blocks, at least), if we knew or found out where they lived before any contact was made. If things don't go well or they're one of the few pushy or unethical types, we wouldn't want to be running into them regularly! IMO, it's rare for swingers to try to manipulate someone into participating, and that goes double for a neighbor because of the potential problems. Why bother when there are so many other willing participants? Of course, there are always some exceptions who are both stupid and predatory, and it's not just swingers - e.g., like the neighbor who hit on my wife in front of his spouse.
> 
> ...


Very well stated and I concur. 

I know people talk about pineapples and trying to seduce friends and neighbors etc but for us and the people in the lifestyle we know, people did NOT want people approaching them on the street or grocery store or in the neiborhood etc. People did not have secret handshakes or secret symbol jewerly or any of this other stuff that NONswingers seem to promote. 

People valued their privacy and discretion didn't want others getting into their private business. 

So how did swingers meet other swingers? On swinging websites and at swinger clubs. I'm sure there are phone apps now too as well. 

The cloak and dagger stuff with the secret handshakes and decoder rings is the stuff nonswingers dream up and pass around. As in many things, the real world is a lot less glamorous and sexy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

OK gang, as I stated before, I never intended this to be a discussion about swinging per se. 

If people are wanting to have a more thorough discussion of swinging/poly/open marriage topics, we can start another thread and chat away. 

Anyone have some burning question or comment that they would like to start another thread about, be my guest and we can continue the discussion there.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> OK gang, as I stated before, I never intended this to be a discussion about swinging per se.
> 
> If people are wanting to have a more thorough discussion of swinging/poly/open marriage topics, we can start another thread and chat away.
> 
> Anyone have some burning question or comment that they would like to start another thread about, be my guest and we can continue the discussion there.


which teams should we bet on in the nfl playoffs this weekend? Can the Niners not only cover, but beat the Cowboys?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Very well stated and I concur.
> 
> I know people talk about pineapples and trying to seduce friends and neighbors etc but for us and the people in the lifestyle we know, people did NOT want people approaching them on the street or grocery store or in the neiborhood etc. People did not have secret handshakes or secret symbol jewerly or any of this other stuff that NONswingers seem to promote.
> 
> ...


Have to share this. When you mentioned secret symbol jewelry I did a Google search for swingers ring. This is what came up on Etsy. They even advertise it as Swinger's Lifestyle Jewelry, lol. 


















Upside Down Pineapple Anklet Upside-down Pineapple Jewelry - Etsy


This Anklets item by VixenAndStag has 587 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Firestone, CO. Listed on Oct 24, 2022




www.etsy.com


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have to share this. When you mentioned secret symbol jewelry I did a Google search for swingers ring. This is what came up on Etsy. They even advertise it as Swinger's Lifestyle Jewelry, lol.
> 
> View attachment 81997
> 
> ...


Note to self: Be sure to check out women's ankles from now on.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have to share this. When you mentioned secret symbol jewelry I did a Google search for swingers ring. This is what came up on Etsy. They even advertise it as Swinger's Lifestyle Jewelry, lol.
> 
> View attachment 81997
> 
> ...


You know whats funny. Earlier when the pineapple thing was first brought up I had never heard this before even having been in the lifestyle for years. I asked my wife if she remembers anyone ever saying this and she said no but she did remind me of the lifestyle club we went to in Montreal once had a room upstairs with a bunch of lounge beds and in the corner was a statue type thing of a big pineapple. We couldn't remember if it was upside down or not, I'm guessing it was. Funny


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You know whats funny. Earlier when the pineapple thing was first brought up I had never heard this before even having been in the lifestyle for years. I asked my wife if she remembers anyone ever saying this and she said no but she did remind me of the lifestyle club we went to in Montreal once had a room upstairs with a bunch of lounge beds and in the corner was a statue type thing of a big pineapple. We couldn't remember if it was upside down or not, I'm guessing it was. Funny


at the grocery store yesterday, i saw a bunch of pineapples in the produce section. Waited to see who grabbed one, LOL. No takers, sadly.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sometimes, a pineapple is just a pineapple.

I usually buy canned, or freshly cut. I could try putting the can upside down, but I don't think anyone is looking at my cart that closely.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have to share this. When you mentioned secret symbol jewelry I did a Google search for swingers ring. This is what came up on Etsy. They even advertise it as Swinger's Lifestyle Jewelry, lol.
> 
> View attachment 81997
> 
> ...


I think the pineapple thing has turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I question whether any real swingers used pineapples but it has become such a part of the lexicon that people started hitting on other people with pineapples and they started hooking up and so it has taken on a life of it's own. 

There probably are people out there getting it on over pineapples. 

And yes there is and always has been swinger themed jewelry and my wife has some, but she only wore it to swinger clubs and events. 

My point about the pineapples and decoder rings is those were likely more generated by nonswingers than swingers themselves.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You know whats funny. Earlier when the pineapple thing was first brought up I had never heard this before even having been in the lifestyle for years. I asked my wife if she remembers anyone ever saying this and she said no but she did remind me of the lifestyle club we went to in Montreal once had a room upstairs with a bunch of lounge beds and in the corner was a statue type thing of a big pineapple. We couldn't remember if it was upside down or not, I'm guessing it was. Funny


We got out of the lifestyle before the pineapple thing became a thing. In almost ten years of going to clubs and conventions and events around the country, I never once heard mention of pineapples. 

I actually first heard of the pineapple thing here on TAM and thought it was laughable. 

It probably has taken on a life of its own to where people actually are doing it now.


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