# Gottman Seven Principals feedback?



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I noticed my wife is reading this book. I am not familiar. I quick scanned it and I see he dedicated a whole entire 6 pages to sex problems within the marriage. Half of them being how to turn your spouse down easy. Not much on affairs either.

Is he a feminist? Anyone have any insight?


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

I don't believe he's a feminist, no. He's one of the foremost "experts" on relationships and marriage. He touts the ability to predict whether or not a couple will divorce each other with 94% accuracy using 6 things or ideas. It actually makes for very interesting reading.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-6-things-that-predict-divorce/


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Here is a review of the concepts: https://psychcentral.com/blog/7-research-based-principles-for-making-marriage-work/

He has been on the marriage scene for nearly 40 years, and has written many books, etc. Mostly he is known for The Gottman Institute where he counsels couples along with his wife. He's not a feminist but rather, he's more like an "equity in marriage" kind of guy. That I know of, his specialty is NOT reigniting the sexual flame or sex therapy--he focuses moreso on how to have a better overall relationship.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback. So I guess she could be reading worse...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think is a good book, and can only help your marriage if she is reading it!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Utter garbage. 

Just one man's opinion.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Thanks for the feedback. So I guess she could be reading worse...


If your wife is reading marriage books, she is trying to improve your marriage. That is a very good thing. She may also be having difficulties that you are not aware of. I recommend you read the book when she's finished or pick it up when she's not reading it and try to catch up to her. You will then be able to discuss the concepts in the book together and possibly improve your marriage.

Why would you be concerned about your wife reading such a book?


Marduk said:


> Utter garbage.
> 
> Just one man's opinion.


How so? What don't you like about his principles?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cynthia said:


> If your wife is reading marriage books, she is trying to improve your marriage. That is a very good thing. She may also be having difficulties that you are not aware of. I recommend you read the book when she's finished or pick it up when she's not reading it and try to catch up to her. You will then be able to discuss the concepts in the book together and possibly improve your marriage.
> 
> Why would you be concerned about your wife reading such a book?
> 
> ...


First principles.

His data collection methodology sucks. His vaunted 'predictability' breaks down under scrutiny and cannot be replicated. His 'principles' are neither principles nor are they objective statements.

In short, he lies, his data is bad, his conclusions aren't replicable, and therefore his guidance is meaningless. You might as well read "the secret" as far as I'm concerned.



> For the 1998 study, which focused on videotapes of 57 newlywed couples . . . He knew the marital status of his subjects at six years, and he fed that information into a computer along with the communication patterns turned up on the videos. Then he asked the computer, in effect: Create an equation that maximizes the ability of my chosen variables to distinguish among the divorced, happy, and unhappy. . . . What Gottman did wasn’t really a prediction of the future but a formula built after the couples’ outcomes were already known. . . . The next step, however–one absolutely required by the scientific method–is to apply your equation to a fresh sample to see whether it actually works. That is especially necessary with small data slices (such as 57 couples), because patterns that appear important are more likely to be mere flukes. But Gottman never did that. Each paper he’s published heralding so-called predictions is based on a new equation created after the fact by a computer model. [emphasis added]


and 


> Then, suppose both the false-positive rate and the false-negative rate for Gottman’s equation are 20 percent (which is only an assumption, because, remember, Gottman doesn’t provide those figures; I chose it based on his assertion of 80 percent “accuracy”). False positives are couples whom the formula classifies as divorced who really aren’t, so with a 20 percent false-positive rate, Gottman would call 168* of the still-intact couples divorced (840 x 0.20). False negatives are couples who are divorced but whom the formula misses, so with a 20 percent false-negative rate, Gottman would put 32 couples in the married column who don’t belong there (160 x 0.20). In sum, Gottman would peg 296 couples as divorced–168 + (160-32), but only 128 of those actually would be, meaning his predictions would be right 43 percent, or less than half, of the time. Much less impressive.


https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2010/03/13/shooting_down_b/

There's more if you google around and get past the tripe to the hard data. As soon as someone claims predictability and the ability to have some kind of formula to inform people if their relationship is going to succeed (and they believe it, trust me)... only he won't provide any actual data, replication on how to collect it, and his 'formula' keeps changing to match his data set (that he won't fully disclose)... my BS meter goes off the charts. Shyster comes to mind.

He's roughly equivalent to Esther Perel as far as I'm concerned. Possibly well-intentioned but dangerous in both zeal and lack of intellectual rigor actual data to support the claims, even though they're often touted.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

hubbyintrubby said:


> I don't believe he's a feminist, no. He's one of the foremost "experts" on relationships and marriage. He touts the ability to predict whether or not a couple will divorce each other with 94% accuracy using 6 things or ideas. It actually makes for very interesting reading.
> 
> https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-6-things-that-predict-divorce/


I read that blog; the problem I have with it is that his 6 predictive traits are vague and overlapping. They can almost be summed up as saying, if you don't fight fair and don't get along, you'll end up divorced. The *only* thing I found interesting was the part about early memories. If you remember things fondly, or remember the bad stuff. And even there, I have a feeling we go through seasons, and when we're happy, we remember the good things, and when we're unhappy, the bad. It's a circular sort of thing.

I think there's value in looking at his list and thinking about whether you're not realizing some of the bad stuff going on in your marriage, and work to improve. But I don't think anyone's going to look at that list as having specific predictive value.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@Marduk, Thanks for your response. That is quite interesting and I learned something new today.

However, I still think that it's good that she's reading about how to improve the marriage and conversations about that would be of benefit to the marriage.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I read this book a few years ago and enjoyed it. But I think marriage books should be read together and discussed together to get the maximum benefit out of it... which is the point right?
I don’t think we are always self aware and don’t realize how we come off or even how our significant others perceive our behavior so he’s always good to be pointed out and made aware of things we do that we don’t realize.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Casual Observer said:


> I read that blog; the problem I have with it is that his 6 predictive traits are vague and overlapping. They can almost be summed up as saying, if you don't fight fair and don't get along, you'll end up divorced. The *only* thing I found interesting was the part about early memories. If you remember things fondly, or remember the bad stuff. And even there, I have a feeling we go through seasons, and when we're happy, we remember the good things, and when we're unhappy, the bad. It's a circular sort of thing.
> 
> I think there's value in looking at his list and thinking about whether you're not realizing some of the bad stuff going on in your marriage, and work to improve. But I don't think anyone's going to look at that list as having specific predictive value.


Once you look at his "methodology," you'll find that his prediction is: if you're divorced, then I predict you'll have gotten a divorce.

Then there's a bunch of hand waiving about body language and stuff.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> I read this book a few years ago and enjoyed it. But I think marriage books should be read together and discussed together to get the maximum benefit out of it... which is the point right?
> *I don’t think we are always self aware and don’t realize how we come off or even how our significant others perceive our behavior so he’s always good to be pointed out and made aware of things we do that we don’t realize.*


My take on this is that, if you can't get past the bolded part, which is covered at grade-school level in the 5 Love Languages, you're going to have a tough time with anything complex. Gottman is definitely on the more-complex side, and if you read his stuff without first understanding the basics, you'll likely be looking to validate what you already believe, which can cause more harm than good.

And my problem with the 5 Love Languages? There's no intermediate, let alone long-term, accountability. It's a bunch of good stuff that you're supposed to take note of and voila, everything's better. Not the case for most. Epiphany's are not that easy to come by, and even when you do, they're still easily forgotten about by some. 

If you've got problems in marriage (and who doesn't?), there is NO QUICK FIX. Nothing you can read or be told and voila, all is better. You have to work at it. It's a JOB. People just don't get this.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Marduk said:


> Utter garbage.
> 
> Just one man's opinion.


That has always been my opinion. There used to be a member here (she requested a perma-ban) who knew someone who knew someone who knew Gottman and the member would get sorely agitated at the suggestion that Gottman was a shyster. According to her the guy walks on water.

This is just some tripe he and his third wife contrived to make a living.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> That has always been my opinion. There used to be a member here (she requested a perma-ban) who knew someone who knew someone who knew Gottman and the member would get sorely agitated at the suggestion that Gottman was a shyster. According to her the guy walks on water.
> 
> This is just some tripe he and his third wife contrived to make a living.


Just like Ester Perel.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Your wife could be reading worse. She does need to process some of what he says deeper, because it isn't all as simple as he makes it seem.

He makes some blanket assumptions which may be wrong for some couples.

1. flooding
"When in conflict or danger, human beings enter a heightened state of arousal. This arousal has protected our species for millennia. It’s why your hair stands up when you hear things go bump in the night. It’s why you pull your hands away from a hot stove *or from a husband who’s been criticizing you for most of the past 45 minutes.* This built-in alarm system has a name: Diffuse Physiological Arousal (DPA). When your body is in DPA, your heart speeds up, blood flow to your gut and kidneys slows down, adrenaline starts to pump, and ultimately you head into the infamous “fight or flight” response." ( https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-part-4/ )

Gottman is insinuating that people only flood if they have been criticized for a long period of time (45 minutes is his example.) Some people flood at the slightest inkling that the other person has an issue with something they have done. My husband "flooded" to an "I message" the first time I gave one. He had never heard one, and he thought he was being criticized. He froze like a deer in the headlights. He was raised rugsweeping, and never, NEVER, heard anyone say how they felt, much less told anyone how he felt. A difference of opinion on a serious matter, or any push-back at all also caused flooding. He flooded for years, and eventually he began to gaslight, attack, say, "Well you...!," or "I'm going to hang up, or leave..." instead of freezing up. It took him 29 years to realize that "I messages" are not an attack or criticism, but my owning my own feelings and identifying his behavior that brings on those feelings. He still has trouble not taking my disagreeing with him as a personal attack. People who are insecure or feel powerless because of their upbringing flood easily.

2. Gottman also blames one partner for the other partner's stonewalling:

*"It takes time for the negativity created by the first three horsemen to become overwhelming enough that stonewalling becomes an understandable *“out,” but when it does, it frequently becomes a bad habit. And unfortunately, stonewalling isn’t easy to stop. It is a result of feeling physiologically flooded, and when we stonewall, we may not even be in a physiological state where we can discuss things rationally." ( https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-fo...cism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/ )

I had never experienced someone stonewalling until I was married to my husband. He did it in response to an I message early on in our marriage. LOL He walked out the door with the intent of not coming back. He walked several miles and then phoned me to pick him up. At the time we were newlyweds, and I was devastated and relieved he hadn't abandoned me. If he did that now, I wouldn't go get him, I'd tell him to stay gone. It was his method of shutting down a discussion he didn't want to have. It wasn't until we had been married 19 years that I found out there was a name for it.

It appears that Gottman is assuming that people come into marriages healthy, and that they get unhealthy in the marriage. He doesn't take into account that some people are damaged before they come into a marriage, and they bring bad habits with them.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Utter garbage.
> 
> Just one man's opinion.


LOL. That's my opinion of most of these 'self help' books. 

The only 'self help' anyone is receiving is the *author*, who's pocketing money every time another one buys their crap book. :rofl:


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I’ve never read a self help book that I didn’t take something positive from . There are always good ideas In everyone I’ve read. Not all the ideas are for me, but some are. You have to make the most out of it I suppose.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Gottman does write a lot of books! And "seven principles" is probably the best of his books.

I am not a big fan of Gottman, but it does contain a few useful ideas. Let me save you the price of a book. The seven principles are:

Love maps (ie find out a lot about each other and your love languages)
Nurturing fondness and admiration (who can argue with that?)
Turning toward each other (ie noticing and responding when partner is asking for attention, not seeing it as an annoyance)
Accepting influence (not being too afraid that if you do anything he/she asks you to, then you'll be controlled)
Solving solvable problems (and knowing which problems aren't)
Overcoming gridlock (this is the big one)
Creating shared meaning (what is your relationship really for?)

It's not bad. The problem is, when you are in the heat of an argument, you forget to do these things. They work if you can start doing them when everything's still good. 

And if you read a book in a hostile frame of mind, then you're just going to nitpick things the author is saying and miss the point. (As people do to each other's posts on here sometimes). 

The question for me is can reading any book really help? Probably not where someone already has serious emotional problems.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. That's my opinion of most of these 'self help' books.
> 
> The only 'self help' anyone is receiving is the *author*, who's pocketing money every time another one buys their crap book. :rofl:


The one I'd say that about is the "Mars/Venus" industrial complex, which dwarfs Gottman.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Thank you all for your opinions. What a valuable community TAM is!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> Gottman does write a lot of books! And "seven principles" is probably the best of his books.
> 
> I am not a big fan of Gottman, but it does contain a few useful ideas. Let me save you the price of a book. The seven principles are:
> 
> ...


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## Cat Lady (May 7, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> I’ve never read a self help book that I didn’t take something positive from . There are always good ideas In everyone I’ve read. Not all the ideas are for me, but some are. You have to make the most out of it I suppose.


This. We have read a lot of marriage ‘help’ books, one of which was the 7 principles. All of them HAVE helped in one way or another. None have been 100% applicable to us. Bettering a relationship is an ongoing project that both partners should be working on, separately and together. If your wife is reading this by herself, it could be because she feels she could use some help and wants to learn. Hopefully it isn’t so she can just point out to you everything you are doing wrong. Maybe ask her if the two of you can work through it together? Even if only one thing resonates with you, it’s a good thing.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > That has always been my opinion. There used to be a member here (she requested a perma-ban) who knew someone who knew someone who knew Gottman and the member would get sorely agitated at the suggestion that Gottman was a shyster. According to her the guy walks on water.
> ...


Okay, I’ll bite. What’s wrong with Ester Perel?


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

I agree here. There is truly no one author able to define/predict marriage or its outcome. 

Taking high level principles and applying those that you can apply or that are relevant to the situation can help to change a pattern of thinking...the ultimate goal in improving a relationship.

If someone challenges your way of thinking...all the better. We can all fall into patterns that are unproductive and need a "swift kick" to wake us up.

Thing is, you have to be open to learning, growing and changing. That's the biggest challenge.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Of course it's all crap ... to the close minded.

Most of these books do have some value - you have to see what resonates with you. And of course the author wants to make money (hopefully while helping some people). Often, however, it's the parts that you most hate that may be of most benefit, as such reactions may be a defense mechanism to a flaw you won't own. If you can, examine why you react a certain way. Also, some authors have done extensive research, and their advice is based on both sound psychology and observing hundreds of real situations; Gottman falls in this group, IMO.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> Okay, I’ll bite. What’s wrong with Ester Perel?


She blames the BS for their partner's straying. Have you listened to her speak about infidelity and how to keep your partner from straying?


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Cynthia said:


> If your wife is reading marriage books, she is trying to improve your marriage. That is a very good thing. She may also be having difficulties that you are not aware of. I recommend you read the book when she's finished or pick it up when she's not reading it and try to catch up to her. You will then be able to discuss the concepts in the book together and possibly improve your marriage.
> 
> ...


Eh... not always. 

In my experience, these self-help books can be used as bludgeon to really go after the other spouse, e.g. "_I'm reading this book to find a way to deal with all the things about you I don't like, and why you need to be better_" 

a more innocent approach would be to suggest reading it together, I suppose. "_Honey, I'd like for us to read this book together, because... reasons_" is better. Probably the best thing if a spouse is really trying to better a relationship is to read a book on the DL, without making a big deal about it.

I'm curious how he "noticed" his wife was reading the book. Did she make a big emotional production about reading it, or is it just one of many books on her stack of reading materials?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

blahfridge said:


> Okay, I’ll bite. What’s wrong with Ester Perel?


I'm sure I have dozens of posts kicking around here on how problematic and deceitful she is.

I'll distill a few down:

1. she didn't actually have the certifications to be a therapist when she did some of her therapy work. Her actual qualifications, at least up until recently, have been a master's degree in "art therapy" from a no-name bottom tier school. Know what "art therapy" is, or what it has to do with infidelity? Ya, nobody else does, either.

2. her proclamations have been viewed as dangerous by other highly respected relationship therapists, that actually do operate in a peer reviewed way. She doesn't. She makes proclamations based on "anecdotal evidence" that only she has access to.

3. she is extremely dodgy about her own relationship - I remember watching someone's video of one of her lectures where she was asked if she would find it a 'growth opportunity' if her husband cheated on her, or if he would if she cheated on him... or if they're in an open relationship. She totally dodged the question and made it fairly clear that she had depersonalized the whole thing to an extent that affairs weren't really traumatic things that happen to real people. 

4. her work is often contradictory, error-prone, and her whole 'european sex kitten' persona seems highly tuned to do one thing: sell books and articles. E.g.: She blatantly blames the betrayed for their partner cheating, while also saying (which I agree with) that people often cheat for reasons that have nothing to do with the relationship. So which is it?

I don't have the time to pull everything out, but google around, you might be surprised by what you find. She's 100% a fraud - and a dangerous one because she's so charismatic about it.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

TomNebraska said:


> I'm curious how he "noticed" his wife was reading the book. Did she make a big emotional production about reading it, or is it just one of many books on her stack of reading materials?


She made it a point to be reading it as I entered the master bedroom (I've have been staying in the spare bedroom about a month now). It was all an act. She hasn't touched the book in a week. Since I have been out of the bedroom, my 8 year old daughter has moved in. Sleeps with my wife every night, but that's a topic for a different day.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Some decent Esther "affairs are good" Perel stuff here: https://www.chumplady.com/2014/11/esther-perel-can-stfu/


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

RebuildingMe said:


> She made it a point to be reading it as I entered the master bedroom (I've have been staying in the spare bedroom about a month now). It was all an act. She hasn't touched the book in a week. Since I have been out of the bedroom, my 8 year old daughter has moved in. Sleeps with my wife every night, but that's a topic for a different day.


I don't want to make too big of a deal about a book, but that's a red flag.

The daughter/night arrangement thing is another.

I would scrutinize her behavior a lot more now; who she's talking to, what she's doing, etc.

Get a view of the situation from "30,000 feet"... did you do anything to provoke it? Did her behavior change a lot recently? Have you ignored her? etc.

Then maybe you want to ask her why she's reading the book, assuming you can't figure it out from the circumstances. Let her talk, listen, and decide if she has objective, reasonable reasons to be behaving this way, or if this might be the start of something worse.

My XW used to claim all sorts of bizarre things, and then get self-help books or print internet articles to "prove" I was treating her wrong and needed to be a better husband. This is not normal behavior, nor is it helpful. She never presented me with objective standards to meet, or requests, it was always vague requests impossible to fulfill: "_prove you love me enough_" or "_show me that I come first in your life_." 

from there it was pretty much all downhill!


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Don't recognize the guy but I don't follow self-help books.

There are books that print research done by legit research entities, these are pretty reliable. 

There are books that spin a theory, these can be ridiculous or insightful, I would caution you that you are typically reading one unopposed opinion.

Then there are "recipe books", do these things for this many days and get these results. These are about as reliable as infomercials on TV.


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