# My good friend's story



## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

(1) This is really my friend's story, not mine. I have plenty of posts regarding my own. 

(2) I am posting in "ladies's lounge" fully aware that everyone visits here. I'm not exactly asking a question. It's more like a lamentation....my points are mainly (a) everyone's situation is different (b) whenever someone posts in the infidelity forum, the views/suggestions are skewed in BS's perspective. You do see some former/current WS chiming in but not too often. When I posted about my possible EA all I got was "CUT IT COMPLETELY", and BS saying it's a lost case. For a potential WS to post, at least this person is fighting with the situation, and in my case there are multiple reasons contributing to the problems in my marriage. But people make it so simple and clear cut--either this, or that. Divorce, or you are a lousy human being. 

(3) Here's the story. I've known R since our kids were in same pre-school. She's about 10 yrs my senior. Our families became close. We have very similar backgrounds--both of us married husbands from a different part of Asia (suffices to say, a very big country) than us. We speak the same language but were brought up very differently. All these years when I was trying to walk out of the door on DH R would be very understanding. 

(4) Recently, I reconnected with an old classmate and have been struggling with my possible EA. I told R about it. Seeing I was about to hang myself, she revealed to me she had not slept in the same room with her H (I mean NO PHYSICAL CONTACT) for more than 12 years and she had recently ended a 7-yr PA. 

(5) I was shocked, as R always appears as a calm lady who's more into kids and yard work. She and her H don't talk much and we all know they sleep in different rooms. But I didn't know it was THAT bad. 

(6) R told me 12 yrs ago she had a huge disagreement with her boss at work and fell into a depression. While she was struggling with all the stress, her H took the other party's side and lectured on her, saying she had brought the trouble to herself. In R's words, it was "unforgivable". She checked out of the marriage emotionally. 

(7) Funny thing is, prior to this there were already gaps and problems and R had mentioned divorce but her H said no. Several years into this "checked-out" stage (I can only imagine how she denied her H of any sexual advance), her H now said perhaps divorce is not a bad idea but HIS PARENTS said no way, what a disgrace. 

(8) R has 2 kids and the older one is very sensitive. Even I asked her why not a divorce now since her H's parents had passed away. She said now it's about the kids. 

(9) Apparently R never sought a PA but this man came strong on her and she told me how the sex was SO different between her and this man, compared to her H who never treated her right. This resonates with me so much--I posted numerous threads (recently "bad sex") about how frustrated I am with my H. I sighed. 

(10) My H did exactly the same thing multiple times. When I was down and struggling during school, career, whatever, he would take the "correct" side (which means not my side) and lectured me. That is the best way to build resentment in a woman. 

(11) But I have not given up. I feel so lonely and empty but still hanging on the belief my H is a good person (he is, in many ways), a good father. Two kids, one grown up, but the little one is very sensitive. 

That's it. I want to say, life is complicated, and that's not just an excuse. I have seen other threads where divorce might not be possible. Affairs are never a good thing, I absolutely agree. But to give a uniform answer and "protocol"--cut, 180, expose, divorce, blah blah blah....that is only one way to look at this human condition, or even suffering as I really feel these days.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jennifer1986 said:


> (1) This is really my friend's story, not mine. I have plenty of posts regarding my own.
> 
> (2) I am posting in "ladies's lounge" fully aware that everyone visits here. I'm not exactly asking a question. It's more like a lamentation....my points are mainly (a) everyone's situation is different (b) whenever someone posts in the infidelity forum, the views/suggestions are skewed in BS's perspective. You do see some former/current WS chiming in but not too often. When I posted about my possible EA all I got was "CUT IT COMPLETELY", and BS saying it's a lost case. For a potential WS to post, at least this person is fighting with the situation, and in my case there are multiple reasons contributing to the problems in my marriage. But people make it so simple and clear cut--either this, or that. Divorce, or you are a lousy human being.
> 
> ...


Generally speaking...

1) If you're not happy in your marriage, work on your marriage.

2) If, for whatever reason (i.e. abuse, infidelity, unwilling spouse, etc), you're unable or even unwilling to take the steps necessary to work on your marriage, end your marriage.

Staying together for the kids? That's pretty much the dumbest idea ever, especially when not absolutely mandated by finances and/or logistics. What does this teach children, that they should continue to exist in an unfulfilling marriage just for the sake of being married?

Seriously... is this really so hard?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does your friend live in Asia or the USA?


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Does your friend live in Asia or the USA?


We both live in the USA. 

Again, the ideas here are generally true, and I agree kids should see a harmonious marriage. I am still working on my marriage, although my efforts are dwindling.

But, there are SO many places where people stay together for the kids. In my friend's case, finances are also a big concern. The both make money. We do not have this "if I leave him I will have no way to make a living" problem so often seen on the forum. However, to separate the finances would be a nightmare. 

When I was in college, the boy I had a huge crush on was from a wealthy family and his parents stay married until he graduated. Often one party is not willing to divorce (in this case, his Mom) even though his Dad was blatantly having a mistress who produced a daughter. The Mom and my friend both live in the US. Do not think this kind of thing only goes in certain parts of the world and we Americans are so proud and so above such nonsense.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Generally speaking...
> 
> 1) If you're not happy in your marriage, work on your marriage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sure, what if you try, and try, and try (hey that's a song), but your spouse takes some steps, makes some changes, but before you know revert to the same behavior? Sure, if it's physical abuse, I will not put up with it. But what if it's subtle mental abuse? Put-downs, lack of affection, criticism, all mingled with normal daily routines, kids, some happy family moments? What if the spouse is a really good person and ACTUALLY loves me IN HIS OWN WAY, so I cry in the middle of night out of loneliness? We know how hard it is to change people, and I have already done 20 years of self-improvement, to the point where I thought I was invincible, and I do not need any tender affection, praise, whatever, then one day someone walks in my life with all those. Now I am screwed with only a label of "WS", still in the EA stage, with only one logical thing to do~


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> We both live in the USA.
> 
> Again, the ideas here are generally true, and I agree kids should see a harmonious marriage. I am still working on my marriage, although my efforts are dwindling.
> 
> ...


I was not implying that "we Americans are so proud and so above such nonsense". I asked to question so that I had more knowledge of the situation.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jennifer1986 said:


> Yeah, sure, what if you try, and try, and try (hey that's a song), but your spouse takes some steps, makes some changes, but before you know revert to the same behavior? Sure, if it's physical abuse, I will not put up with it. But what if it's subtle mental abuse? Put-downs, lack of affection, criticism, all mingled with normal daily routines, kids, some happy family moments? What if the spouse is a really good person and ACTUALLY loves me IN HIS OWN WAY, so I cry in the middle of night out of loneliness? We know how hard it is to change people, and I have already done 20 years of self-improvement, to the point where I thought I was invincible, and I do not need any tender affection, praise, whatever, then one day someone walks in my life with all those. Now I am screwed with only a label of "WS", still in the EA stage, with only one logical thing to do~


Did you read my entire reply? Either way, I'd like to point you back to it, specifically this part...



GusPolinski said:


> 2) If, for whatever reason (i.e. abuse, infidelity, unwilling spouse, etc), you're unable or even unwilling to take the steps necessary to work on your marriage, end your marriage.


It sounds like the way in which your spouse loves you is insufficient, at least as far as you're concerned. Have the two of you had a _serious_ discussion regarding the inevitability of divorce?

I'd never encourage anyone to engage in infidelity, and I certainly won't do so here, but no one should be forced to simply exist in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage... not when he or she could actually live -- and flourish! -- in a happy, fulfilling marriage.

If you truly believe that your marriage is beyond rescue, why not end it so that you can be free to pursue happiness w/o compromising your integrity?


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I was not implying that "we Americans are so proud and so above such nonsense". I asked to question so that I had more knowledge of the situation.


Sorry if it sounded like I was directing the comment at you. I was not. I have just seen too many simplistic comments and that is why I put the story here. 



GusPolinski said:


> Did you read my entire reply? Either way, I'd like to point you back to it, specifically this part...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Compared to my friend who simply walked out (emotionally), I have had MANY discussions with my H. He sometimes gave the desperate answer (I even feel bad for him)variation: "you just won't be happy", "no one is blocking your happiness", "feel free to pursue your happiness". What he's saying is fundamentally he is a dull, boring, unromantic person (verbatim using his own words) and a "hopeless case". What can I possibly say to such answers?

In my opinion, it is a kind of passive aggressiveness he uses. I slowly died losing any hope for "romantic love". Well, people do survive going to work, doing dishes, worrying about kids' grades. Two parents work as a team and the house actually functions well. Does that make any sense? 

The H gradually becomes a good friend, a family member, your kid's Dad. He's still a good person. You go out to restaurant and it's easier to order as a couple (don't assume I am the dependent type. My H has been away now for a month and I have no problem with it). You listen to your H talk about politics, economics, you are not a bit interested (and you never dare to talk about what you like because he always shows obvious impatience), but you nod and even make some intelligent comments (because the wife here is VERY intelligent with an advanced degree although her H frequently puts her down). Does that make any sense? No? Then call it inertia. 

Until recently, I have never even imagined another man would show me any affection. Now I've got it, but like many people implied....I should just leave for that? With the kid in grade school? OK, so don't leave, stay here, and tell the man I don't give a @#%$^&I$ to his advances, EA is the last thing on my list, we shall not talk, and then he says "please at least talk to me, I can't afford losing you, I have looked so long to find someone like you". 

I have waited for ALL MY LIFE for someone to say that to me. My H never did, and never will. Sure, feel free to say it's cheesy. I need my cheese. Having been told for 25 years how I should "improve" this, "improve" that, now to hear the golden words "I like you just the way you are", soooooo cheesy, like some badly written song, and at this moment (yeah fog) I'd rather jump in a lake than not hearing these words again. 

That was a total rant~~~


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jennifer1986 said:


> Sorry if it sounded like I was directing the comment at you. I was not. I have just seen too many simplistic comments and that is why I put the story here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One day -- and not too many years from now -- your children will take their cues on how to function within (and what to expect from) their marriages from the lessons that they're learning from you and your husband now.

Do you want your children to one day live as you're living now, or do you want something better for them?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It is true that anyone who comes to TAM to post about an EA/PA or anything related gets slammed by the posters here, 90% of the time. Thanks for sharing your story, it probably felt good to vent.

I know you aren't seeking advice but I will just say this: no EA or PA is going to resolve the problems in your marriage. 

I wish you well.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

7 years PA ?? How does that even work ? 

I think there is a severe disconnect on how you and your friend see your spouses in general. Almost as if they are just things to be managed and maintained.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> 7 years PA ?? How does that even work ?
> 
> I think there is a severe disconnect on how you and your friend see your spouses in general. Almost as if they are just things to be managed and maintained.


Exactly the kind of comments I tend to see here. Any PA/EA is so frowned upon people just lash out. 

My friend and her H are disconnected, I would say. But it's mutual. If anything, they are managing and maintaining the household. Fine, if you want to say they are "maintaining each other", but again it's an equal thing. 

I absolutely do not see my H as a thing to manage and maintain. If I did, I would not be suffering. I would be busy drawing up my abc steps to manage and maintain him well. 

Again, people are free to post their comments here, but not all WS have same situations. To just draw a huge slash across the board is oversimplification. I REPEAT PA/EA's are not right in any way. No one is trying to gain approval or justify them here. There is a huge pain involved in my case.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think I can understand how someone could get into the position where cheating seems rational.

I'm not sold on the idea that there's always such an easy answer.

I also think that some spouses who get cheated on probably deserve it.

It's hard to imagine carrying on for years and years in that way as you've described. It is either working very well for all involved or one or more people is suffering terribly for it. If it's a secret, I'd put my money on the latter.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hating what is wrong is not simplistic.

Weak people do wrong and make excuses.

Strong people do right and don't need them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Hating what is wrong is not simplistic.
> 
> Weak people do wrong and make excuses.
> 
> ...


None of us does the right thing 100 percent of the time. And some outward projected strength covers up weaknesses instead of dealing with them. We all have them after all.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Hating what is wrong is not simplistic.
> 
> Weak people do wrong and make excuses.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of my high school years in the church youth group

We had "campaigns" for various things. For example, when a buddhist temple was erected in our local area we went to distribute flyers and prayed that faith in God would not be affected. Years later, when same-sex marriage started becoming a topic, we again (by this time I have grown up and was not part of the campaigns) went to the street corner distributing flyers. 

I trained in SF and had many homosexual friends. They still encountered problems working as doctors. 

I am not equating affairs and homosexuality. I have already said too many times affairs are wrong. 

But when the word "hate" is used, it conveys a tone of bigotry. This kind of attitude does not help any WS who at least has the conscience to contemplate his/her actions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jennifer1986 said:


> But I have not given up. I feel so lonely and empty but still hanging on the belief my H is a good person (he is, in many ways), a good father. Two kids, one grown up, but the little one is very sensitive.


Speaking as though this were your thread, not your friend's, I would tell you one thing. YOU have the power to change your situation. Are you in IC? Get one. Go regularly. Ask her to help you learn how to value yourself, stand up for yourself, and give out consequences when your H steps over your boundaries. 

It is SO important that you do this. Men don't react like women; you need to build up your backbone and stop expecting him to meet you on your level. 

Start respecting yourself, and he will have no choice but to do likewise.

btw, we can help with your boundaries/consequences. That's the best place to start.

And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE end the EA. You WILL destroy lives if you keep it.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> Speaking as though this were your thread, not your friend's, I would tell you one thing. YOU have the power to change your situation. Are you in IC?


I just went to IC this morning. I had been going on-and-off throughout the years. My H did go a couple of times but he's not exactly the therapy/counseling type (although he would not refuse to go if I told him so). 

I read a short children's story to my therapist that I wrote up last night . It so happens I'd rather be a writer (and I wrote quite a few pieces for newspapers before) than a physician, but I have not been able to write since my father's passing 2 yrs ago. Somehow I was able to start on a simple story where a girl would see fog (sorry, not the A kind of fog we like to talk about on TAM) surrounding her and she would be scared but no one else could see it. She learnt to deal with it and "grew up" in the process, until one day a little boy walked in, and simply asked her if he could sit by her. She said she's a grown-up and not afraid and this is nonsense. As the fog got thicker, she could not see anything and finally held on the boy's hand, and she was transformed back to a little girl. 

No intention to beautify an EA as a fairy tale here. I just wrote what and how I felt. I have never kept a diary in my life, but I started writing one. It is a good outlet. 

So, ending an EA is one thing, how to end it without dying a complete death (what redundancy) is another thing. I have resisted this EA with more strength then I ever invested in anything. Life is tough. I am still not saying this is right, good, justified, or anything like that at all. It is just a human talking.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jennifer1986 said:


> This reminds me of my high school years in the church youth group
> 
> We had "campaigns" for various things. For example, when a buddhist temple was erected in our local area we went to distribute flyers and prayed that faith in God would not be affected. Years later, when same-sex marriage started becoming a topic, we again (by this time I have grown up and was not part of the campaigns) went to the street corner distributing flyers.
> 
> ...


Leave homosexuality out. I have very good homosexual friends. Your statement was deflecting.

My homosexual friends "hate" infidelity as well and have more integrity than you or your "good" friend.

You should understand that you are simply weak and stop trying to normalize hateful behavior. Or stop being a coward on an anonymous forum and tell your husband. Maybe your "good" friend can open up that she has been getting drilled for years by another man to her husband.

I have lived through many times worse than you or your friend, I guarantee it, and I don't use any excuse to behave like a moron and betray my wife and family.

If it isn't working for you, get the hell out and quit making juvenile arguments about your pathetic cheating friend or yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

OP never said that cheating is normal or okay, but that there are many complicated reasons why a person makes that decision. 
I am also not saying that cheating is ok. It's not. 

But i can understand why, when a person has been lost in the dark for years, and a stranger offers them a candle, that person may not have the strength of will to wonder if the candle is organic, fair trade, and cruelty free. They're just grateful for a little bit of light. 

It's really easy to tell a stranger online to just leave if they're unhappy, isn't it? It's much easier than making a very difficult decision while you're miserable and consumed with guilt. Relationships, and the reasons we stay in them, are not black and white.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Leave homosexuality out. I have very good homosexual friends. Your statement was deflecting.
> 
> My homosexual friends "hate" infidelity as well and have more integrity than you or your "good" friend.
> 
> ...


I have no intention to argue with you. Can I please kindly ask you to stop leaving comments. Coward, moron, hateful behavior, pathetic, you are already stepping over the boundary of forum etiquette.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

that.girl said:


> OP never said that cheating is normal or okay, but that there are many complicated reasons why a person makes that decision.
> I am also not saying that cheating is ok. It's not.
> 
> But i can understand why, when a person has been lost in the dark for years, and a stranger offers them a candle, that person may not have the strength of will to wonder if the candle is organic, fair trade, and cruelty free. They're just grateful for a little bit of light.
> ...


Thanks. I am not just trying to get approval or kudos here. I have said again and again this is a HUMAN being talking. I don't understand why weaknesses need to bring hateful remarks. If I was jumping up and down and saying cheating is fantastic...well, then I wouldn't even be here. Some people have very strong ideas about infidelity, and that is their right, but it's just not necessary to keep calling others names.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jennifer1986 said:


> I just went to IC this morning. I had been going on-and-off throughout the years. My H did go a couple of times but he's not exactly the therapy/counseling type (although he would not refuse to go if I told him so).


Well, there you go, then. Start taking him to IC/MC on a regular basis and do what the MC tells you to do.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> Exactly the kind of comments I tend to see here. Any PA/EA is so frowned upon people just lash out.
> 
> My friend and her H are disconnected, I would say. But it's mutual. If anything, they are managing and maintaining the household. Fine, if you want to say they are "maintaining each other", but again it's an equal thing.
> 
> ...


You should have said that you wanted just validation in your first post. Why bother asking for opinions ?

7 years EA/PA is an act of incredible cruelty. I was pointing out the actions of your friend. Your friend is a cheating scumbag. 

Not sure why you got so defensive when I pointed it out even though you weren't in it ? Is it because you sympathize with her or agree with what she did ? If you did not, I am not sure why you took offense at what I said. 



> I absolutely do not see my H as a thing to manage and maintain. If I did, I would not be suffering. I would be busy drawing up my abc steps to manage and maintain him well.


You also seem to think that remaining in this marriage is an act of great sacrifice on your end. It shouldn't be. That is not how most marriage work. You can work around problems but staying with your spouse shouldn't be an act of sacrifice.

I mention the maintenance part because I was curious if it was a general cultural outlook in your situation. Both of you and your friend seem to hold a similar view with regards to the husband at some level(without the cheating part).

I've read your posts in other threads. You seem to lack understanding on how your own actions are a considerable factor in your situation.You seem to have a blindsport regarding that


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You and your friend are full of lame ass excuses as to why you are taking the easy way and staying in your miserable situations. Staying in misery IS the easy thing to do, and in my eyes, that is weak. Being STRONG is taking control of your life and making it the way that you want and need it to be. EA and PA aside, you are both living as cowards. Sorry, but that really is how I see it.


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## DadOfFour (Mar 13, 2013)

Jennifer

You need to take control of your marriage. Us guys are blind when it comes to our partners being unhappy, even though you have told your husband that your unhappy. IMO what you need to do is find the best marriage councilor (one that specializes in marriage and can give you the tools to work through your problems). You need to make an appointment and then write your husband a long letter stating that you love him but you are very unhappy and if things don't change and soon you can't see yourself being in that marriage with him for much longer. Tell him that you also want him to be happy as well and are willing to try anything to save your marriage but you both have to start doing something now. Maybe in the first MC session you should tell him about your EA and why your were attracted to your AP. I wish you well.


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