# Feeling Disconnected from my wife



## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Lately I've been feeling less connected to my wife. She's had some issues with depression for the last few months but she's doing much better now. 

A few months ago she was getting angry at me all the time and we would fight about so many things. During each of our fights I feel like it was always me trying to find a solution to the problem but she would always go to the extreme negative and say that maybe we should just get a divorce. This happened numerous times and I told her how much it upset me so she eventually stopped saying that word every time. I should mention that this would happen when the topic was something I was upset about. When she was upset she wouldn't bring up divorce but would want the situation changed.

When we argue now I feel like the situation is similar but not as severe. Again if I bring up something I'm unhappy about she will either deny it or start guilting me by saying that she's terrible and I don't like her anymore. Sometimes I just don't want to deal with that so I just let the argument die and start doing something else.

I almost feel like this is her being passive aggressive and trying to control the situation in another way. It also happens with cleaning….. She is generally a messy person and I end up doing the majority of the cleaning. Many times I will do it when she's sleeping or not home. Even after I spend all this time cleaning when she decides to clean something, even if it's for 5-10 minutes she always calls me to help her with it. It's as if she can't stand doing work while I'm not helping her. 


This is just some background I'm giving that I think is relevant because now I just don't feel like being close to her very much or even having sex very often. I almost feel like I've checked out of the marriage in a way. She knows it too, sometimes she says it seems like I don't like her anymore. I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but I definitely don't feel that magic we once had. 

There's so much more that's happened that I don't want to get into but I just don't know how to go from here. I can't stand being the only one willing to work on things. Even today we were getting ready so I could go to an appointment I asked her if she could hurry up and leave right away. She just kept at the same pace and then was about to eat when I was ready to go out the door. I ended up missing it and I was upset because she didn't take me seriously. She said it was my fault that she doesn't take me seriously and that I shouldn't give her attitude. 

I don't really know where to go from here. I feel like she takes me for granted now. I want our marriage to get better but I don't feel like putting much effort towards making it better because it's always me trying to do it. And now my lack of effort is making her care less as well, I'm not sure where things are going anymore.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Have you read up on borderline personality disorder at all? 

Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships

^ See if that touches a nerve with you....?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Today you should have just left on time without her. I can see her point about it being your fault. She needs consequences and boundaries. You tell her once we're leaving at x o'clock. And if she not ready you leave without a word.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Have you read up on borderline personality disorder at all?
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships
> 
> ^ See if that touches a nerve with you....?


I have read about it, some of the traits are there but not consistently. My wife was on anti depressants before but not anymore and her withdrawal effects have been terrible. They were at their peak a couple of months ago but they're mostly gone. 
She used to have bad mood swings and it was difficult to deal with. Now things are better but I feel like some bad habits were made.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Have you read up on borderline personality disorder at all?
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships
> 
> ^ See if that touches a nerve with you....?


I've read them before and some of the traits are there but they're not consistent. She was suffering from withdrawal from anti depressants and she used to have bad mood swings and even break things in the apartment, but she's doing much better now. 
She said she never felt or did anything like that before the drugs so I don't think she has bpd.
The problem is that some of her bad habits from the time seem like they are staying. She's not crying like she was before or being depressed but it seems like she's always positioning things to be my fault and it's really aggravating me.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

You are just wasting years and years away. 

These circumstances you are in are so textbook it is not even funny. She is taking complete advantage of you and she is using her depression as an excuse. Her bringing up 'divorce' is her not really asking for a divorce.. it is her using that term to keep you in check for fear of her divorcing you. In other words, she most likely has no intention of divorcing you--it's just her way of trying to whip you into shape. 

Also, the I'm not good enough for you/You hate me/I'm terrible to you is her way of making sure your not going anyway/ She will use these 'terms' to make you feel completely guilty and in essence--she is trying to make herself the victim.

The next part of process if you really do fall out of love with her.. could end up being the whole 'suicide' thing. It will be her last attempt to keep you from leaving her. However, just let her parents or any of her siblings know so they can deal with it. That will be something you might have to prepare for.

In the meantime, start working on yourself. Stop cleaning up the whole house. Stop coming to her when she wants your help cleaning. Start going to your appt's without her. If you want any stability or love back, sadly, you need to gain control. You need to keep her on her toes. She needs to know that a divorce is REAL if she doesn't wise up. 

She will need a time consuming amount of IC.. and it's up to you if you want to stick around for it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Today you should have just left on time without her. I can see her point about it being your fault. She needs consequences and boundaries. You tell her once we're leaving at x o'clock. And if she not ready you leave without a word.


:iagree:


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## aubreyg (Dec 18, 2013)

Hey there Phoenix.

I have to say, it's almost scary that you described almost the exact situation my husband and I have been through. I'm not proud if it, but I've been that woman, needy, lazy, depressed. It's hard to get out of that rut... But it can be done. Stick by her, remind her of those times when you started dating, get away for the weekend, away from housework and everyday life and reconnect. She is probably finding it just as hard but thinking that divorce is the easy way out, but it's not. Tell her you love her every morning and every night and mean it. Once she feels that if am sure she will show it back, in cleaning, looking after you, sex, communication etc. 
and if you're feeling down, read this article about real love, it's really quite beautiful, you can get through this. We all go through rough patches!

A Holy Experience – The Real Truth about ‘Boring’ Men — and the Women who Live with Them: Redefining Boring
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aubreyg said:


> Hey there Phoenix.
> 
> I have to say, it's almost scary that you described almost the exact situation my husband and I have been through. I'm not proud if it, but I've been that woman, needy, lazy, depressed. It's hard to get out of that rut... But it can be done. Stick by her, remind her of those times when you started dating, get away for the weekend, away from housework and everyday life and reconnect. She is probably finding it just as hard but thinking that divorce is the easy way out, but it's not. Tell her you love her every morning and every night and mean it. Once she feels that if am sure she will show it back, in cleaning, looking after you, sex, communication etc.
> and if you're feeling down, read this article about real love, it's really quite beautiful, you can get through this. We all go through rough patches!
> ...


Aubreyg, this is one of the most beautiful articles I have read in a long time. It makes proud to have grown up Catholic.

I can't wait to show it to dh--just as soon as he finishes the dishes.

One more comment . . . I remember, after our first child was born, looking at all the stretch marks and thinking how ugly they were. I told dh this, and he said, "They are beautiful! Let me touch them!" That is love.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

How is her depression being treated? Have you tried communicating through email or letters instead of words? Rejection is a common fear of people with mental illness. Encourage her to talk, write, get therapy, take meds, try meditation and light therapy. Good luck!


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

scatty said:


> How is her depression being treated? Have you tried communicating through email or letters instead of words? Rejection is a common fear of people with mental illness. Encourage her to talk, write, get therapy, take meds, try meditation and light therapy. Good luck!


She was on anti-depressants before but those drugs are so terrible so we don't want her on those again. Most of these new problems never even happened she started taking anti depressants. 
Right now she's taking herbal medication and doing acupuncture. It's helping a lot but she's also in school and that's causing her anxiety which is making the situation worse.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

aubreyg said:


> Hey there Phoenix.
> 
> I have to say, it's almost scary that you described almost the exact situation my husband and I have been through. I'm not proud if it, but I've been that woman, needy, lazy, depressed. It's hard to get out of that rut... But it can be done. Stick by her, remind her of those times when you started dating, get away for the weekend, away from housework and everyday life and reconnect. She is probably finding it just as hard but thinking that divorce is the easy way out, but it's not. Tell her you love her every morning and every night and mean it. Once she feels that if am sure she will show it back, in cleaning, looking after you, sex, communication etc.
> and if you're feeling down, read this article about real love, it's really quite beautiful, you can get through this. We all go through rough patches!
> ...


She doesn't really want to get a divorce, she only says that when she gets in a really bad mood. She tells me she doesn't mean it but when she gets in one of her moods it's hard for her to control what she's saying.
How did you handle the situation?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

is she close to any guys at school?


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## JohnC_depressed (Dec 6, 2012)

You guys sound like your pretty young and have no children; therefore, there is not that much invested in this marriage yet. So I am going to advise you to RUN.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> is she close to any guys at school?


No, there's nothing pointing to anything like that.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

JohnC_depressed said:


> You guys sound like your pretty young and have no children; therefore, there is not that much invested in this marriage yet. So I am going to advise you to RUN.


We are young but I don't think I can do that. She's shown that she wants to work on it, it's just annoying that there's so much work to be done. It's like she has to be told how to be fair now instead of it just being instinctual...


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## aubreyg (Dec 18, 2013)

phoenix_ said:


> She doesn't really want to get a divorce, she only says that when she gets in a really bad mood. She tells me she doesn't mean it but when she gets in one of her moods it's hard for her to control what she's saying.
> How did you handle the situation?


I know exactly how this feels! This girl sounds just like what I was. Studying is an awfully hard thing, especially when you are struggling with depression. You need to help her to feel safe and do all you can to calm her down when anxiety strikes. Don't try to fix the problems, just be there, be calm and loving. The good thing is that depression passes, I look back now at what happened with my husband and I feel terrible at how much I messed with his and my emotions and life! But we've moved on and I truly believe that nothing can separate us now. We've been through so much. Stick with your wife, she will come through and you will be both so much stronger. You sound like a great man for sticking it out so far, it takes a really great man to stay with a woman through depression!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

phoenix_ said:


> *She said she never felt or did anything like that* before the drugs so I don't think she has bpd.


I wouldn't rule out Kathy's suggestion -- BPD -- based solely on what your W is able to recollect. When a person has strong BPD traits, those traits distort her recollection of past events -- in the same way they distort her perception of current events.


> I've read them before and some of the traits are there but *they're not consistent*.


Inconsistency does not rule out BPD. There is nothing "consistent" about BPD traits. Because a BPDer is unable to regulate her emotions, inconsistency is exactly what you would expect to see in a BPDer. I therefore ask what you mean by "not consistent."

Perhaps what you mean to say, Phoenix, is that her BPD traits are not "persistent." If they lack _persistence_, a psychologist would rule out BPD. Persistence means that you would see event-triggered mood changes every few weeks -- or every month or two, for example. 

Because BPD is believed to develop before the age of five, you would not see a BPDer being symptom free for years at a time and then suddenly start showing these traits. In BPDer relationships, for example, the BPD traits typically disappear only for 4 to 6 months during the courtship period (because the BPDer's infatuation holds her two fears at bay).

That said, I caution that seeing BPD traits in a person does NOT imply that person "has BPD." It is a "spectrum disorder," which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits the traits -- at a low level if the person is healthy. Even healthy people occasionally get BPD "flareups," as can occur under great stress or during hormone changes (e.g., pregnancy, puberty, or postpartum). Such BPD flareups also can be caused by perimenopause so, if your W is in the 35-55 age group, I would suggest you read about that and ask your doctor about it. 


> She was suffering from withdrawal from anti depressants and she used to have bad mood swings and even break things in the apartment, but she's doing much better now.


What you are describing here goes far beyond the traits associated with simple depression. But, yes, it could be due to drug withdrawal if it only happened for a few weeks and stopped. The problem, however, is that you say this behavior has not really stopped.


> The problem is that some of her bad habits from the time seem like they are staying.


This statement of yours is worrisome. If her abusive behavior is "staying" now, I have to wonder whether such traits may have existed for years earlier. Just how much of her life did you see, _for yourself_, to be symptom free?


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Uptown said:


> I wouldn't rule out Kathy's suggestion -- BPD -- based solely on what your W is able to recollect. When a person has strong BPD traits, those traits distort her recollection of past events -- in the same way they distort her perception of current events.
> Inconsistency does not rule out BPD. There is nothing "consistent" about BPD traits. Because a BPDer is unable to regulate her emotions, inconsistency is exactly what you would expect to see in a BPDer. I therefore ask what you mean by "not consistent."
> 
> Perhaps what you mean to say, Phoenix, is that her BPD traits are not "persistent." If they lack _persistence_, a psychologist would rule out BPD. Persistence means that you would see event-triggered mood changes every few weeks -- or every month or two, for example.
> ...


I see what you're saying. She has seen psychiatrists and Doctors and none of them have suggested BDP yet. Right now they're saying panic disorder is her main problem and her psychiatrist doesn't think she's depressed anymore. 

Like I was saying she does have these symptoms pop up every now and then and they do worry me but I don't know if she can be properly diagnosed until the drugs get out of her system completely. It's been about 3 months since she got off of SSRIs but she still has bad physical symptoms of withdrawal. I know they advertise the withdrawal period to be a couple of weeks but they're liars. I actually took an SSRI for 6 weeks because I had some anxiety issues, when I stopped it the withdrawal effects lasted for 8 months and they said it would be 2 weeks max. BTW, my wife is 21 so I don't know how that factors in...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

phoenix_ said:


> She has seen psychiatrists and Doctors and none of them have suggested BDP yet.


If your W is exhibiting most of the BPD warning signs at a strong level, the fact that none of her doctors has mentioned BPD means very little. Psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell a HF BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the name of her disorder. One reason is that any mention of "BPD" almost certainly means the insurance company will refuse to cover any of the treatments. There also are several other important reasons having to do with protecting their sick client. I discuss them in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.

Importantly, I am not suggesting your W has BPD. Rather, I am simply saying that, if you are seeing most of the BPD warning signs, it would be foolish for you to rely on HER psychiatrist for candid advice. Doing so would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during a divorce. Her therapist is NOT your friend. He is ethically bound, just like an attorney, to protect his client -- which is not you. 

It thus is important, if you are seeing strong warning signs of BPD, to see a professional who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. Hence, if most BPD warning signs are present and persistent, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. Of course, it should be a psychologist who has not seen or treated your W and thus is ethically bound to protect only you.

As to my exW, for example, I took her to six different psychologists/psychiatrists in weekly visits for 15 years. Not one of them ever told her or me that she has strong BPD traits. Never mind that my exW strongly exhibits all nine of the BPD symptoms. Never mind that she had been sexually abused by her own father for years, starting in childhood. 

The last psychologist -- whom my exW saw weekly for five years -- always said "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask about the diagnosis. At my very last meeting with her, when I was very insistent, the psych grudgingly conceded to me that my exW has "a thought disorder" -- which, of course, is what BPD is.


> Right now they're saying panic disorder is her main problem and her psychiatrist doesn't think she's depressed anymore.


A recent large-scale study of BPDers found that about 75% of them also have at least one or two co-occurring "clinical disorders" such as depression, GAD, PTSD, panic disorder, or adult ADHD. With HF BPDers, the diagnosis typically will be listed only as one or two of these clinical disorder, excluding any mention of the BPD itself. And this is why medications typically are prescribed for HF BPDers (to treat the cormorbid disorders) even though meds cannot make a dent in the BPD itself.


> I've read them before and some of the [BPD] traits are there but they're not consistent.


It would be helpful to know exactly which "traits are there." I therefore suggest you look at the following list to see if most sound very familiar:


1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.
Phoenix, if most of those traits do not sound familiar, please ignore the list. If most sound very familiar, however, I suggest you read my more detailed description of these traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Uptown said:


> If your W is exhibiting most of the BPD warning signs at a strong level, the fact that none of her doctors has mentioned BPD means very little. Psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell a HF BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the name of her disorder. One reason is that any mention of "BPD" almost certainly means the insurance company will refuse to cover any of the treatments. There also are several other important reasons having to do with protecting their sick client. I discuss them in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.
> 
> Importantly, I am not suggesting your W has BPD. Rather, I am simply saying that, if you are seeing most of the BPD warning signs, it would be foolish for you to rely on HER psychiatrist for candid advice. Doing so would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during a divorce. Her therapist is NOT your friend. He is ethically bound, just like an attorney, to protect his client -- which is not you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the list.
The traits that I see the most are 4, 8, 9 and 15. But she is very self aware when instances of these show up so she has made improvements. I still think she is relatively stable, she does have her issues right now but she's getting help and realizes what's going on.
My biggest concern is that she is still experiencing heavy withdrawal symptoms from her medication and we don't know how to make it better. She's had severe breathing problems and that causes her to panic and be very stressed.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

phoenix_ said:


> I still think she is relatively stable.


Phoenix, if you have decided that she is emotionally stable, you are NOT describing a strong pattern of BPD warning signs. I say this because the key defining trait of BPD is _emotional instability_. Indeed, of the ten personality disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the only one having "instability" as a defining trait.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Phoenix, if you have decided that she is emotionally stable, you are NOT describing a strong pattern of BPD warning signs. I say this because the key defining trait of BPD is _emotional instability_. Indeed, of the ten personality disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the only one having "instability" as a defining trait.


After looking at her symptoms again it seems like she has SSRI discontinuation syndrome. Every single symptom checks out and she has gotten off the medication recently.

She was having consistent shortness of breath that was causing a lot of panic attacks but just recently her breathing has gotten better. Although now it seems like she has no energy at all.

It's really really frustrating for me because I just had knee surgery last week and I'm still doing all of the cleaning and my own cooking at least. I keep trying to tell her I need help, she feels bad for a while but never does anything to help with chores. She is concerned about me knee but it seems like nothing is happening to help me now. 

After surgery I kept asking her to get groceries and she kept saying she would do it but 4 days later we were completely out of food and I had to go while she was sleeping. Sometime I get so frustrated but I don't know what I can do...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Phoenix, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm glad to hear you don't think she has strong BPD traits like instability. I wouldn't wish that disorder on my worst enemy.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Phoenix, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm glad to hear you don't think she has strong BPD traits like instability. I wouldn't wish that disorder on my worst enemy.


I know. The times she does show those symptoms its terrible.

I feel like I flip flop all the time. When she is in one of moods all I can think of is ending the marriage and getting out. I even think about how I can make it happen asap.
But then when she becomes herself again I feel like everything is ok because thats not who she is.

Her symptoms are changing all the time. She used to have severe breathing problems and chest tightness for months, and now that has completely gone away... Funny thing is that a doctor said she needs to be on medication for the rest of her life because of that, and then a month or two later it completely vanished.

She is doing slightly better now, but one of her new symptoms is a lack of sexual desire. She cant really do it and she doesnt really care about it very much in general now, which is obviously very difficult for me. Its funny, I didnt realize how much of a problem something like this would cause...


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