# Mild domestic violence? men please help



## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

My husband and I are in our thirties and have two children and a lot on our plates right now.. We got into a horrible fight a few nights ago, a conversation we've had many times before. He called me a the c-word, I poured four of his beers down the sink, and he responded by handling me roughly to stop me. I repeated told him hands off, but he held my wrists and told me he wasn't letting me act stupid. The only closure of the fight he would give me were callous remarks and a general attitude of non-participation. He concluded that I have psychological issues (something he only brings up in arguments) Years ago, we had two incidents of mild domestic violence (pushing, that sort of thing). He promised me solemnly that it would never happen again. He's really not a violent person. I'm devoted to my marriage and I'm not looking to divorce. He apologized a few minutes after but hasn't mentioned it since. I've been on edge ever since and he's going on as if nothing happened. I don't even want to look at him. He doesn't see it as a big deal and it doesn't help me let go of my anger. I love my husband dearly and I know he loves me. He doesn't understand how degrading this is to me and I don't even know how to bring it up. We can't afford counseling, and he feels that I'm the only one who really needs it anyway. How do we move on from here?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

It seems to me you both have serious issues. You do this and he does that, you then do this and he then does that......

Now be sure to listen to me- in no way, shape or form do I condone any physical acts against women (or kids), but if all he was trying to do was keep you from pouring out his beer and grabbed your wrists and then apologized, I'm having a hard seeing this as domestic violence unless he really ratcheted down on you. 

But it appears you both have poor attitudes and an inability to cope with conflict that naturally occurs in a marriage. 

I suggest getting counseling. If he refuses, then at least you go and maybe he will learn something from you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

before commenting further I'd like an answer to something.. do you think he is an alcoholic?

IF you do, please describe his drinking problem.

If not, why did you dump out his bear?


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

mild domestic violence is sort of like being a little pregnant. It is or isn't.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> before commenting further I'd like an answer to something.. do you think he is an alcoholic?
> 
> IF you do, please describe his drinking problem.
> 
> If not, why did you dump out his bear?


I don't really have a good reason for pouring his beer out. I was pouring my heart out to him, and he was responding callously, and I wanted to get back at him. It was immature and satisfying. Not the best thing for me to do, but it's done now and it made him furious. Years ago, I poured out beer we couldn't afford (back then he did have drinking issues) and he pushed me into a post on the porch. I had a nasty bruise on my lower back for a week. We fought, cried, made up, he seemed remorseful. This time there is no remorse, no heart-felt apology, and I can't let it go.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> It seems to me you both have serious issues. You do this and he does that, you then do this and he then does that......
> 
> Now be sure to listen to me- in no way, shape or form do I condone any physical acts against women (or kids), but if all he was trying to do was keep you from pouring out his beer and grabbed your wrists and then apologized, I'm having a hard seeing this as domestic violence unless he really ratcheted down on you.
> 
> ...


It was a little more than wrist grabbing. He was holding me so I couldn't move, though only for 30 seconds or so. I guess the worst thing (to me obviously) is our past history with him pushing me and holding me down; not quite violence but him using his brute strength to control me. He sincerely apologized and promised me never again.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

I want to tell him how much it upsets me, but I don't want to be accused of making a mound out of a mole hill. The incident left a really bad taste in my mouth.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm not going go all the way back to an incident years ago that the two of you dealt with back then.

He was wrong to man handle you to try to get you to stop pouring out his beers. There is no real excuse for this.

But I think that we need to look at your part in this too. You poured out his bears knowing full well that it was escalating the argument/fight. 

You want an apology from him. But you owe him one as well. Did you apologize to him for your actions?

I'm a huge anti-abuse advocate. This is especially true for violence. But the incident you describe sounds very close to a mutual incident.

There is a safe and effective way to handle it when someone starts yelling, calling you names, etc. You WALK AWAY. Go to another room. Leave the house and go for a walk, a ride, etc. You let him know that you will not engage in his angry outbursts. 

Then if he comes after you, then you can call the police over his used to threats and violence.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RupMomma said:


> I want to tell him how much it upsets me, but I don't want to be accused of making a mound out of a mole hill. The incident left a really bad taste in my mouth.


It should leave a bad taste in your mouth for what he did. But you did some wrong things as well. 

How did you get his beers? Did you grab it out of his hands? Was it on a table near him?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

RupMomma said:


> It was a little more than wrist grabbing. He was holding me so I couldn't move, though only for 30 seconds or so.


OK, that is _unacceptable_. He is stronger than you (I presume) and using it to control you.

And it makes no difference if he apologizes for it. Apologies do not fix domestic abuse.

My wife makes a good point in that he has both an anger and controlling problem.

I would now state that it is mandatory for the both of you to seek counseling and he must agree to get help with respect to getting physical with you.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

It had already started getting really ugly when I did it. I flipped when he called me a c*nt and told me I was crazy, that's when I left the bedroom and went to the kitchen to dump them (he had more, btw). I did apologize. I sincerely appreciate your comments, but I don't feel attacking me for attacking his beer is justifiable. He saw what I was doing and grabbed them from me and held me so I couldn't move or leave. I told him I was calling the police (again, I was immature. I had no intention of doing that) and he actually yanked my cell phone right out of my hand.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

I appreciate your comments.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

I won't deny that I did some wrong and I realize that I have things to work on. I'm struggling to find some peace in my house again. He wants to "fix" it by ignoring I'm having a hard time with that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RupMomma said:


> It had already started getting really ugly when I did it. I flipped when he called me a c*nt and told me I was crazy, that's when I left the bedroom and went to the kitchen to dump them (he had more, btw). I did apologize. I sincerely appreciate your comments, but I don't feel attacking me for attacking his beer is justifiable. He saw what I was doing and grabbed them from me and held me so I couldn't move or leave. I told him I was calling the police (again, I was immature. I had no intention of doing that) and he actually yanked my cell phone right out of my hand.


Understand that I am not attacking you.

Instead I see a real problem in the way the two of you interact. 

I've been through this is a marriage with a guy who did a lot more than your husband. Mostly I defended myself verbally with my ex. But it would escalate to the point that he was pushing, shoving and breaking things. A few times is grabbed my face, twisted my arms.

But then I read a book, "The Dance Of Anger". I started using something that I learned in the book. I told him that I as going to use the word "STOP" as a safe word. When I felt things were getting out of hand I'd put up my hand in the "STOP" sign and tell him "STOP" in a firm voice. Then I'd tell him that I was leaving the room until we both clamed down. It was up to each of us to calm ourselves down. Once I started doing this he knew that I would never, ever talk to him when he was losing it. He also knew that I would call the police. 

And a funny thing happened... we never had another yelling match. He never escalated to the violent behavior again.

We did divorce.. but that was because he was emotionally cruel and was cheating... for a long time. But the arguments and his physical abuse ended because I would not tolerate them.

I'm not suggesting that you take responsibility for him being violent. You do have to stop your part of escalating things.

He called you names. You know what that means? It does not mean that you are what he called you. It's means that he's a miserable man who wants to lash out and spread his misery. Stop taking it personally and stop engaging in the angry outbursts he starts.

Right now. You are rightly upset with him. Tell him. If you have to send him a text message so that he will at least read it. Also tell him that the both of you need to go to counseling or he has to leave because you no longer feel safe.

Do not argue about it with him. Just tell him what your boundaries are.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

You two have a very dangerous dynamic. Sounds like he has some issues with anger and you probably do as well. His verbal abuse is unacceptable. Your raising the stakes is also unacceptable. Since you both escalate such situations to the point where he makes it physical, it is only a matter of time before he truly loses control and actually hits you. You both need therapy and sooner is better than later. You have a dysfunctional dynamic that you are both responsible for creating. 

I hope you get the help you need before something tragic happens.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

Thanks so much for your comments! Some things I definitely needed to hear


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RupMomma said:


> Thanks so much for your comments! Some things I definitely needed to hear


Again I'm totally supportive of you here. 

As a counselor once told me "You have so much more power in your relationship then you seem to realize."


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

What is the argument that you keep having over and over? Were you both drinking at the time?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Have you ever pushed, hit or slapped him? How about being emotional abusive towards him?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So you destroyed his property in an attempt to get him to react, and then you're upset about the fact that he reacted? You two are in a mutually unhealthy relationship, and unless you BOTH get a handle on it, I suspect it's likely to escalate. You're both at fault. 

I don't believe there's any excuse for domestic violence, just as I don't believe there's any excuse for cheating (speaking as a formerly cheating husband). But just as a spouse who withholds sex for years can't really be surprised when their spouse makes a selfish decision and cheats, a spouse who pushes their spouse's buttons even when they know better shouldn't be very surprised when their spouse grabs their wrists to keep them from destroying their property.

C


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm sorry to say this but, it seems like you learned how to push his buttons. And while he is wrong in hurting you, it seem like you are out to get him, then play the victim. You want him to apologize for hurting you, but have you apologized to him? I think both of you need to go back to the stage where you both had respect for each other. I think that's the main problem, there is no respect, so the attacks get uglier and meaner. If you don't stop it now, one of you if not both will cross the line. Once that line is crossed the damage is too sever to repair. Even if you decide to separate, you can do it amicably, by restoring a basic level of respect.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Is it domestic violence if a woman hits a man in the face with open hand or fists, and throws marble and metallic objects at his head?

What about just verbal abuse and teardowns?

I was curious as to the perception of when a woman does it versus a man?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Is it domestic violence if a woman hits a man in the face with open hand or fists, and throws marble and metallic objects at his head?
> 
> What about just verbal abuse and teardowns?
> 
> I was curious as to the perception of when a woman does it versus a man?


Domestic violence is physical abuse in the home, I don't think it's a gender issue. Same with verbals abuse, it happens in both genders. Neither should be tolerated, by any gender.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

RupMomma said:


> It had already started getting really ugly when I did it. I flipped when he called me a c*nt and told me I was crazy, that's when I left the bedroom and went to the kitchen to dump them (he had more, btw). I did apologize. I sincerely appreciate your comments, but I don't feel attacking me for attacking his beer is justifiable. He saw what I was doing and grabbed them from me and held me so I couldn't move or leave. I told him I was calling the police (again, I was immature. I had no intention of doing that) and he actually yanked my cell phone right out of my hand.



You could have calmed the situation down as Elegirl suggested..

Instead, You are escalating the situation EVERY step of the way...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> Is it domestic violence if a woman hits a man in the face with open hand or fists, and throws marble and metallic objects at his head?
> 
> What about just verbal abuse and teardowns?
> 
> I was curious as to the perception of when a woman does it versus a man?


It does not matter who is being violent, it's domestic violence.

Here is a good example of abuse by a woman. It's Megan Welter beating on her boyfriend because of a message she found from another woman. Then she calls the police and claims that he hurt her.

Good thing though is that he video taped it with he phone. There is also a video of when the police came and they watched his video. She was arrested and charged.

She was drunk, out of control and crazy.

There are 2 videos of the incident and her lying 911 call at this link.... The call is a disgusting bunch of lies. She's a piece of work.

Celebrated Cardinals cheerleader arrested after alleged assault caught on video | azfamily.com Phoenix


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Here's a pretty good definition of what domestic violence actually is according to the law.
> 
> USDOJ: Office on Violence Against Women: Crimes of Focus: Domestic Violence
> 
> ...


I wanted someone to say this... Men suffer in silence, cannot say anything because he may even become attacked, victimized and outcasted from mentioning it. Emotional and mental abuse can be as bad or worse than physical abuse, either way it's not a good thing it should not be tolerated in the least.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> It's not her job to keep him calm. It's not his job to keep her from being passive aggressive. It's their own responsibility to take care of themselves in this area. She's not responsible for his behavior. That's sort of in a back handed way what you are saying. I know you don't mean it that way.
> 
> Edit: Sorry. This was in response to hambone's post. My timing was bad.


You are right about it not being either one of their jobs to control or calm down the other. But it is each of their jobs to control themselves. I think that's the point.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It is not just physical violence that is abuse. Abuse is all about controlling the actions of the person/s you are intimate with. Think about it. It isn't about getting your rocks off because you are a tough guy. It's about getting what a person needs through inappropriate actions, words, etc. 

The cinema has made domestic violence into a guy coming home and when his wife opens the door for him, he just plows her right in the face with a punch. That is the very extreme and not the meat of it. Most cases of domestic violence happen just the way the op talked about. It escalates to him getting even more physical because she will never be able to do enough to satisfy his need to control. That's what happens. 

It's almost like a spoiled child taking a temper tantrum, except there are subtle means of verbal and emotional abuse which are just as harmful as getting punched, slapped, pushed, tripped, you name it. 

The harm is not just physical. Those are terrible, but they usually will heal, unless the guy is like in the movies. The mental harm caused by the abuse is what lasts the longest in most cases. The poor woman will be scared to death to be with any man. She will have ptsd and flashbacks if it is bad enough.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Here's a pretty good definition of what domestic violence actually is according to the law.
> 
> USDOJ: Office on Violence Against Women: Crimes of Focus: Domestic Violence
> 
> ...


That stereotype is actually changing because abused me have taken a stance and have been willing to share their stories to educate others. The best thing you can do is research it, and teach your children that domestic voilonce is wrong. Your view regarding this came from somewhere, we as a society need to educate each other. 
Help for Abused Men: Escaping domestic violence by women or domestic partners

I think you are "thread jacking", you have great points, but this is not what the OP is asking. how about starting another thread? I'm more than willing to follow you


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, I thought I was helping her to understand what abuse is and that she needed to do something about what is going on in her marriage. I didn't consider it "thread jacking". I did not want her to take it lightly or think she could change her husband and end up in a escalated situation where she is led down a slippery slope to greater harm.

Edit: Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to accomplish. Men also can be abused. That was not where I was trying to take the thread. I suppose that is what you are talking about.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You are right about it not being either one of their jobs to control or calm down the other. But it is each of their jobs to control themselves. I think that's the point.


I wanted to add... If there is domestic physical violence. Police should be called and charges pressed. They key is the repurcussion. Sometimes you can get past these issues, but without a penalty the offender will never know what they did wrong.

And if you did choose to give them a second chance, and they had done it again, you have to be done with the relationship.

Violence escalates, as the offenders comfort zone expands to consider mistreatment, abusive behavior and violence as their norm for you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I thought I was helping her to understand what abuse is and that she needed to do something about what is going on in her marriage. I didn't consider it "thread jacking". I did not want her to take it lightly or think she could change her husband and end up in a escalated situation where she is led down a slippery slope to greater harm.
> 
> Edit: Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to accomplish. Men also can be abused. That was not where I was trying to take the thread. I suppose that is what you are talking about.


I think that your posts are on topic.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I thought I was helping her to understand what abuse is and that she needed to do something about what is going on in her marriage. I didn't consider it "thread jacking". I did not want her to take it lightly or think she could change her husband and end up in a escalated situation where she is led down a slippery slope to greater harm.
> 
> Edit: Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to accomplish. Men also can be abused. That was not where I was trying to take the thread. I suppose that is what you are talking about.


Yeah, I think I got lost in your last paragraph, I'm sorry


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## malmale (Oct 5, 2010)

regardless of whom started it, who is right or who was wrong, i simply find any men who would beat up or abuse women are cowards...


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

I'll never condone what I did. I poured out 4 out of twenty-something beers in the fridge. It was immature and irrational. I appreciate your comments, but beer is not a person; I fully understand that it was an attack on him, but beer just isn't a person.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

We are both guilty of verbal abuse.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RupMomma said:


> I'll never condone what I did. I poured out 4 out of twenty-something beers in the fridge. It was immature and irrational. I appreciate your comments, but beer is not a person; I fully understand that it was an attack on him, but beer just isn't a person.


So, you were wrong, BUT.

Well, I'll say that your husband was wrong to call you a name, BUT a name isn't destroying property.

I find it interesting that we tell our children that sticks and stones may break their bones, but words will never hurt them. Then, when two adults call each other names, it becomes abuse. I disagree. If your husband hurt your feelings, I understand that. BUT you didn't have to escalate the situation.

It seems that, once you started destroying your husband's property, he had a choice to either let you continue, or stop you. He chose to stop you. I understand his choice. I also understand that you didn't want him to stop you. You wanted to continue. But he didn't hurt you.

I'm curious. If, instead of pouring out several beers, you started destroying more expensive items, such as TVs and stereos, would you think your husband was justified in stopping you, or do you think he should have let you continue to destroy whatever you wanted? After all, a $2,000 television isn't a person, right?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> She's not responsible for his behavior. That's sort of in a back handed way what you are saying. I know you don't mean it that way.


You think a husband's act of restraining his wife for no reason is the same as a husband's act of restraining his wife to prevent her from destroying property? I disagree. I think, in the latter case, the wife's behavior makes the husband's behavior much more reasonable.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I think there is way more to this story than the OP is letting on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

More to the story is she might be as abusive as the husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sounds like my ex.

called me crazy. called me the c-word.

That's when i decided to leave. I didn't want my child seeing that or hearing her mother called a c-word.

Never looked back. Best thing i ever did. He's a loser still.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RupMomma said:


> I'll never condone what I did. I poured out 4 out of twenty-something beers in the fridge. It was immature and irrational. I appreciate your comments, but beer is not a person; I fully understand that it was an attack on him, but beer just isn't a person.


So where does this go from here? What are your plans?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I say he has no right to put hands on her unless she is coming at him with fists swinging. Even then, he needs to get out and call the police to let them take care of it.


I simply disagree. I don't think anyone, even one's wife, has the right to destroy one's property. I think one is justified in stopping another from destroying one's property. And I don't think that government employees have any special moral standing so that they, and only they, can protect property.

Even if you think that the government is the only agency with the moral authority to protect private property, you can't argue that they are effective. Option A is: someone starts to destroy your property and you stop them. Option B is: someone starts to destroy your property, you call the police, the police arrive in half an hour and write a report about how much property was destroyed. If you think option B (destroyed property with a report about it) is preferable to option A (relatively little property destroyed), then I will just disagree.



> Why attack my opinion? Did something I say hit a nerve?


I haven't attacked anything. I stated that I think you're wrong. It's that kind of histrionic hyperbole that leads people to allegations of abuse over name calling and protecting property.



> The so-called "property" is beer. It was what, three cans? I suppose if he did not restrain her, she would have dumped it all out? Wow! That's a good reason to put hands on her. Sure it is. You need to think a little bit.


So, you think there is a dollar amount that warrants protection of property? If I try to rob you, but you only have $5 in your wallet, does that make me morally justified in robbing you?

If you're arguing that there is a dollar amount that warrants protection, then I would think you would have to agree that the amount would be relative. Since the OP said that she can't afford counseling, I'm guessing money is tight. Perhaps a case of beer isn't something that can be easily replaced. Perhaps the case of beer, to her husband, represented a Ferrari to Bill Gates. Do you think Bill Gates should be upset if his wife trashed his Ferrari?



> The rest of the help she, her husband and/or their marriage needs is secondary to her safety.


Sure. She should buckle up and look both ways before she crosses the street. But I didn't read anything in her posts that leads me to think that her husband is a threat to her. When she escalated an argument to the point of destroying his property, he physically restrained her and stopped her from destroying more of his property. Wow! What a monster.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Dude, start a thread in politics and religion and I'll give you my opinon. Take this above post with you.


So, the OP and her husband had an argument. He called her a name. She began destroying his property. He restrained her to prevent this.

You believe that she had no responsibility, through her destruction of his property, in his resorting to restraining her. You believe that her husband is a dangerous abuser, or potentially a dangerous abuser. You believe one has no right to protect one's own property, and must rely on government employees to do it. And, you believe that any disagreement with you must lie in political or religious bias.

I'll just say, again, that I disagree. And not for political or religious reasons. I think there are enough logical holes in your position that we don't even need to get into the politics or religion of the situation.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

cause he doesn't agree with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I say she knows how to push his buttons, she gets him angry then wants him to apologize but take no responsibility. And I'm not saying what he did is ok, both are wrong and the OP is trying to down play her part in this. You both need help, this seems like a toxic relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I say he has no right to put hands on her unless she is coming at him with fists swinging. Even then, he needs to get out and call the police to let them take care of it.
> 
> Why attack my opinion? Did something I say hit a nerve? The so-called "property" is beer. It was what, three cans? I suppose if he did not restrain her, she would have dumped it all out? Wow! That's a good reason to put hands on her. Sure it is. You need to think a little bit.


A woman under power can break your nose, knock some teeth out, or cause a contusion on your cheek. I could not ask any man to sit there and withstand a pounding from a female. I've had the situation before, and the police suggest restraining her. This means immmobilizing her so she cannot harm you.

I don't know where you get into your minds that females are these dainty and harmless creatures. Their are evil and manipulative women as their are evil and maninpulative men.

In a case of physical violence it's always best to press the charges. If it was a one time thing for her and she is not a violent person, the jail time will wake her up to reality. 


2ntnuf said:


> There is much more that is going on here that has not been told. I know it and so does everyone else. The first thing that needs to be taken care of in an abusive situation is safety. Part of that is understanding what abuse actually is. Mainly because many men try to convince their wives that what they are doing is not abuse and/or is caused by them. It Is Not!
> 
> The rest of the help she, her husband and/or their marriage needs is secondary to her safety.


Men are abusive... But so are women, and when women do it they are protected and it's swept under the rug. Remember "men suffer in silence", it's more widespread than you think.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

It's more than that. We had issues with him pushing and shoving me a few times in the past (and yes, there was pain and marks involved that time). I thought we were past that. We are certainly in an abusive relationship and that needs to change or end.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

RupMomma said:


> It's more than that. We had issues with him pushing and shoving me a few times in the past (and yes, there was pain and marks involved that time). I thought we were past that. We are certainly in an abusive relationship and that needs to change or end.


You are in an abusive situation. As far as someone restraining or pushing me, I'm not sure if I would press charges. But counselling is in order, you cannot allow it to go on because it gets worse.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> So where does this go from here? What are your plans?


We had a long talk yesterday. We both admitted to what we did that was wrong, talked about how we felt, agreed to get help. He feels that I need help and he doesn't, but has agreed to give it a shot. All I can do is wait and see. We are both guilty of being abusive towards each other and I feel good that we were able to sit down and talk about changes we need to make. Unfortunately, he is convinced that I am more to blame than he is and I'm not confident that he will seek help sincerely enough to save our marriage. I'm just going to give it some time. I have changes I need to make, that's all I can really worry about right now. I can be patient, but if he doesn't get on board I'm gone. My friends would be absolutely shocked to know that I ever considered giving this not just a second but a third or fourth chance, and honestly it shocks me a bit too.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I would not call what he did abusive.


I would call what you did as unwise. You basicaly provoked a responce to your actions. I think he handled it properly.


this is not a healthy dynamic for a relationship.

I would say both of you are verbaly abusive to eachother. and when it goes to far you take it to the next level of destroying property. If this style of comunication continues then all I see is divorce for you guys.

JMHO.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

mablenc said:


> I say she knows how to push his buttons, she gets him angry then wants him to apologize but take no responsibility. And I'm not saying what he did is ok, both are wrong and the OP is trying to down play her part in this. You both need help, this seems like a toxic relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



We were both guilty of pushing buttons. Yes, it has become a toxic relationship and we are both to blame. I am a little offended that my body is being compared to a fraction of my husband's beer supply. Yes, I agree, I should not have done that. It was abusive. I don't feel I'm down playing my part in our argument by refusing to see your beer/person parallel. Yes, we do need help. Both of us.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

RupMomma said:


> We were both guilty of pushing buttons. Yes, it has become a toxic relationship and we are both to blame. I am a little offended that my body is being compared to a fraction of my husband's beer supply. Yes, I agree, I should not have done that. It was abusive. I don't feel I'm down playing my part in our argument by refusing to see your beer/person parallel. Yes, we do need help. Both of us.


No, I don't think anyone has compared your body with beer. That would be ridiculous. What I am trying to say as well as others is that the behavior from both sides is not ok, it's not normal, and you both need help. I feel that the respect in your relationship was thrown out the window. Bring it back, work together.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> I would not call what he did abusive.
> 
> 
> I would call what you did as unwise. You basicaly provoked a responce to your actions. I think he handled it properly.
> ...


I call what I did unwise. To me, there is no grey area of when it's okay to use physical force against someone. It's only acceptable when there is real danger of someone being physically harmed and brute force is used to stop it. I asked him how he would feel if he witnessed a man treating his mother like that, and he agreed that he'd be fighting mad. I agree with everything else that you said, though and I appreciate your comments.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RupMomma said:


> We were both guilty of pushing buttons. Yes, it has become a toxic relationship and we are both to blame. I am a little offended that my body is being compared to a fraction of my husband's beer supply. Yes, I agree, I should not have done that. It was abusive. I don't feel I'm down playing my part in our argument by refusing to see your beer/person parallel. Yes, we do need help. Both of us.


So, after all these messages, you have come to the conclusion that you were wrong, BUT he was more wrong. You have decided that he had no right to stop you from destroying his property.

Well, if you're waiting for your husband to come to the same conclusion, you are probably in for a LONG wait. If I were your husband, I would never agree with you that one's wife has the right to destroy her husband's property without the fear that he will try to nonviolently stop her.

Frankly, I am offended that you, and some others, are referring to nonviolent physical restraint as abuse. It's not. It's not even close. I've seen abuse. It's ugly and it's brutal. And referring to nonviolent physical restraint as abuse just cheapens the crime of abuse.

The good news is that you shouldn't have much trouble finding a knee-jerk feminist counselor who generally believes that men are bad and women are victims who will validate your opinion that you are a victim to your husband's "abuse".


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> You're fvcked up, man.


:lol:

Wouldn't that qualify as emotional abuse? Doesn't that mean that I am now entitled to destroy your property without fear of reprisal? Or does that only apply to married couples? It's kind of hard to predict what your "logic" will allow.

Of course, you should feel free to ignore all logic and reason and continue to use insults. I suppose somebody could decide that that bolsters your argument. :scratchhead:


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> So, after all these messages, you have come to the conclusion that you were wrong, BUT he was more wrong. You have decided that he had no right to stop you from destroying his property.
> 
> Well, if you're waiting for your husband to come to the same conclusion, you are probably in for a LONG wait. If I were your husband, I would never agree with you that one's wife has the right to destroy her husband's property without the fear that he will try to nonviolently stop her.
> 
> ...


In the past, his "non-violent" restraints have left marks. I'm not one of those women who suffers regular abuse and lives in fear. I didn't "cheapen" anything, it was physical abuse and it was mild, hence the word "mild" in the title. Neither of us are interested in seeking the help of some "knee-jerk feminist counselor." We're both guilty and we're both victims. We both crossed the line. I guess it's just not as much of a gender issue for me as it is for you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

so restraining someone from destroying your stuff is abuse?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RupMomma said:


> In the past, his "non-violent" restraints have left marks.


Yes. You said that he twice before, several years ago, pushed you and restrained you from other incidents of destroying property. I'm still not sold on any violence that took place. If he punched you, bit you, dragged you around by your hair, then I would say that he was violent. But I'm not just someone who insists that any physical confrontation between a man and a woman must, by definition, be abuse.



> I'm not one of those women who suffers regular abuse and lives in fear.


A total of three incidents, years apart, which were, by your own definition, "mild", now constitutes regular abuse? Hokay.



> I didn't "cheapen" anything, it was physical abuse and it was mild, hence the word "mild" in the title.


I understand that you think it's abuse. I'm just disagreeing. I think that referring to physical restraint for 30 seconds that is so mild that it doesn't leave a mark as abuse is offensive to some victims of actual abuse.



> I guess it's just not as much of a gender issue for me as it is for you.


:scratchhead:
The good news is that it doesn't have to be a gender issue. A knee-jerk feminist will support your view. So will a histrionic counselor who believes that restraint is equivalent to assault. So you've got two categories of counselors who will support you in insisting that your husband is wrong and should submit to your position in the marriage.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> No. Since you are a man and we are not intimate. I am not trying to control you with what I said either.


So, you believe that intimacy, a woman as victim, and an attempt to control is required for abuse to exist? I suppose that you consider an attempt to stop someone from destroying property is an attempt at controlling that person? That's an ... interesting ... position.



> It was an accurate assessment.


So, insulting me is the best defense of your position that you can muster? Why am I not surprised? How many more posts will it take you to compare me to Hitler?



> You need to step back and think about what you are saying to a married woman who is being abused.


I don't accept your premise that she is being abused. Being prevented from destroying one's husband's property does not equal abuse.



> You can destroy whatever property you would like as long as it's not mine.


Why is your property more sacred than the OP's husband's? If the OP had started to destroy your property, would you have tried to prevent her? Or would you have stood by and allowed her to continue, so that you couldn't be accused of being abusive by some irrational internet posters?



> There is definitely something wrong with your thinking here. I don't mean to push you into counseling, but I don't think it would hurt.


Thanks for your concern. Given how much thought you put into your other positions, you'll have to forgive me if I feel entitled to dismiss your suggestion out of hand. 



> The protection of a married woman who is being abused is of utmost importance to me here, not finding out who is to blame.


Sure. We all need to help abused women. Let me know if one comes into this thread.



> You have an agenda and this is not a good place to air it.


My agenda of defending a man who has defended his property from being unjustly labeled as an abuser? Sure. That sounds like just my kind of agenda. Which threads would you suggest would be valid places to distinguish between defense of property and violent assault? This seemed like a perfect opportunity to me.



> Please don't try to confuse an abused woman. She knows what she is doing. She knows her part. It isn't the first or second time this has happened to her. It will not be the last unless she does what she can to figure this out.


Good point. At this rate, in a few more years time, when she flips out and starts to destroy her husband's property, he might restrain her without leaving any marks again. And we just can't allow that.


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## RupMomma (Aug 4, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Yes. You said that he twice before, several years ago, pushed you and restrained you from other incidents of destroying property. I'm still not sold on any violence that took place. If he punched you, bit you, dragged you around by your hair, then I would say that he was violent. But I'm not just someone who insists that any physical confrontation between a man and a woman must, by definition, be abuse.
> 
> 
> A total of three incidents, years apart, which were, by your own definition, "mild", now constitutes regular abuse? Hokay.
> ...



The past incidents were not related to any sort of property damage, and one of those times he did pull my hair. I haven't called the police, we're not seeking out any counselor who has any feminist agenda. Gender has very little to do with it. He's not hung up on gender issues and neither am I. If you want to be helpful, I'll send you and address you can send beer


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Do you really believe, after all she posted, that this is all he was doing? I don't.


You think that she's keeping relevant information secret? Hokay.



> I don't think it is wise to just assume that she is not being abused. It is dangerous and I think irresponsible.


Good point. Better to assume that a woman is being abused, based on things she doesn't say, than to make an informed decision based on facts. Informed decisions are dangerous and irresponsible. :rofl:



> Am I correct?


Nope. Your streak continues.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RupMomma said:


> The past incidents were not related to any sort of property damage, ...


You wrote that, "Years ago, I poured out beer we couldn't afford (back then he did have drinking issues) and he pushed me into a post on the porch." That's what I was basing my response on.



> ... and one of those times he did pull my hair.


I would classify hair pulling as mildly violent. I would say he acted better this time by just holding you still without leaving marks.



> I haven't called the police, we're not seeking out any counselor who has any feminist agenda. Gender has very little to do with it. He's not hung up on gender issues and neither am I.


I think that's wise. You can both probably learn how to handle conflict better.



> If you want to be helpful, I'll send you and address you can send beer


Nobody likes the beer that I like. You're probably happy to not have any of my stash.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So he thinks YOU need help and he doesnt. Interesting.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I think an abused woman might keep some information secret if she fears for her safety or is embarrassed by what has happened to her.


You might be right. But that still doesn't mean that we should assume that she is lying, and then give advice based on whatever information we think she might be hiding from us.



> You need to go back and check what has previously been posted.


Why? I doubt I will change my opinion. The OP has had three altercations with her husband. Two of them happened several years ago. The latest incident involved him restraining her without leaving any marks. That doesn't add up to abuse to me.

Now, if you're correct, and he actually used a gun, or a knife, or knocked her teeth out, and she's lying about that, then I'll revise my opinion. But I'm going to assume that she has used the anonymity of this forum as enough protection to give us all, or most, of the relevant information we would need to advise her.



> You have come full circle with your posts. You started by attacking me for my opinions and ended with offering essentially the same advice I have all along.


You think that someone who disagrees with you is attacking you? That kind of histrionics certainly sheds some light on your readiness to allege abuse in mild physical altercations involving the protection of property. I suppose I should applaud your restraint in not alleging that I abused you, or worse.

And I have never taken exception to any recommendations for counseling. I have only taken exception to alleging that her husband abused her based on either her description of a very mild physical incident, or fantasies invented by posters with an agenda.



> Except, you tried to make the argument that she is not being abused. I think that is dangerous. You even state that hair pulling is "mildly violent". It's abusive, plain and simple.


Correction. It can be abusive. I would say that her husband dragging her around by her hair is abusive. If he tried to restrain her, and accidentally grabbed some of her hair so that he was pulling her hair while he was holding her fast, then I wouldn't call that abuse.

I think it is dangerous to simply assume that someone is being abused, assume that she's lying to cover it up, and then advise her accordingly. Under that standard of behavior, we can assume that every married couple in the world is experiencing abuse. I know the statistics don't agree, but they could be lying, right? Maybe we should put every married person in jail based on what they could be doing and lying about.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> It's all about her safety. That's it. Her safety. If she thinks she is being abused and provides the necessary information that leads one to believe she was, then it is best for her to play it safe until counselor(s) can get to the bottom of it.


Safety is fine. Unless it's unwarranted. If the OP had posted that she backed her car into her trash can at 3 mph and is suffering no symptoms, would you recommend that she call an ambulance and insist on being rushed to the hospital for an emergency MRI? I wouldn't. I would call that kind of reaction histrionic.

Similarly, if a woman posts that she had an argument with her husband, lost control and started destroying his property, and he restrained her mildly enough that he didn't leave any marks until she calmed down, I don't see enough information to allege abuse.



> Show me where I posted he used a gun or a knife against her. I never said that.


You have said that you believe the OP is withholding information that proves her husband has abused her. I was just posting a few examples that would make your assumption correct. I wasn't implying that you believe he used a gun.



> Abuse is much much less than a punch to the face or a gun or a knife.


Sometimes, that's true. Although it is much more than physically restraining someone who is destroying your property mildly enough that you don't leave any marks. That's not abuse, by any definition.



> Hmm. LOL I should not assume, but you can. Okay.


You think taking someone at her word is assuming? Why?

You have suggested that I get counseling. But I think you should use your own advice. You see dark conspiracies everywhere. You don't think you can take people at their word. Sometimes, people will lie. But that shouldn't mean we should assume that everyone is lying all the time. That aspect of your personality is certainly concerning. It's probably a significant hurdle to happiness in your own life.



> You have to be kidding. You think I would tell her to protect herself out of a desire for dramatics rather than her safety?


Perhaps. You've told her repeatedly to protect herself based on nothing. She and her husband have had three incidents. The most recent was the first in several years. It didn't leave any marks. And you're using that information, plus the belief that she is hiding other information that, apparently, only you can psychically divine, to suggest that she is in danger. That's not rational. It's not logical. It's histrionic.

Of course, there is another possibility. It is possible that you are so irrational that you sincerely believe that 1+1=3. If a man stops his wife from destroying his property without leaving marks and also calls her a name, he is dangerous. If you can't find any information to support your conclusion, well that doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means that people are lying to you. That mentality is fairly common. It's the same mindset that leads people to conclude that the moon landings were faked and that 9/11 was a government conspiracy.



> Isn't the beer technically joint property by law? I think she can do what she wants with her half of the beer and expect to not be restrained from whatever she deems necessary, as long as she is not harming anyone.


Good point. I assume you're on the deed of your house. Go home and start burning it down. See if your spouse objects or tries to stop you. If he does, be sure to accuse him of abuse.



> Seems to me in a previous post, you did that exact thing to me. You accused me of abusing you.


I asked a question of whether the insult you directed at me qualified as emotional abuse. You said that it didn't. Because I wasn't a woman. I was just trying to learn the "rules" of your "logic". I now recognize that you are illogical and completely ruled by your emotions. That's why my logical arguments upset you enough to resort to insulting me.



> Apology accepted.


So, not only can you divine that the OP is lying about the encounter with her husband in order to hide more violence, but you can also divine that I am withholding an apology that I want to make, but haven't delivered? Can you also predict lottery numbers?



> Interesting. Now, you are accusing me of an agenda, when I clearly stated my agenda was the op's safety. I think taking a stand for her protections is the right agenda. Thank you. That is a complement.


It's not a compliment. You're inserting your agenda where it doesn't belong. Safety for abused women is a noble cause. Except when it overcomes all logic and reason and results in accusing an innocent man of being an abuser.

If you're willing to accuse one innocent man of being an abuser, why not be willing to accuse all men of being abusers? Sure, you'll probably tar some innocent men, but you'll also correctly accuse some abusers that have gotten away with it. It's all for a good cause, right?



> I don't remember her posting that happening.


Does that really matter? Can't you tell that she wanted to post it, but left out the pertinent information? Use your psychic "talents".



> So, according to you, my conclusion she has been abused was incorrect?


Exactly! And I only had to say it 20 times.



> Did you know that it is common for an abused spouse to leave the more heinous things done to them out of a discussion about it. That doesn't mean it happened to her. It is more dangerous to assume it didn't. It would take much more than a little bit of time here to find all of that out and deal with it.


You believe that, because the OP might be lying, we should assume she is. I disagree.



> That's ridiculous.
> 
> However, many spouses are abused and it is not reported because as you said it doesn't sound like abuse to you nor to others who haven't had the chance to sit down with the couple and talk in depth. I stand by my position that it's better to err on the side of caution in cases of spousal abuse.


OK. Maybe we can narrow you down to some specifics.

You say that it's ridiculous to believe that all spouses are abused and lying about it. But, you think it's prudent to believe that many spouses are abused and lying about it. So, what is the magic number of abused spouses who are lying about it? 80%? 50%? 30%?

And, if safety is our number one concern? Shouldn't we at least consider the proposal of locking up all married couples? Sure, we would imprison innocent people, but isn't that a small price to pay for the safety of a person who might be lying about being abused?

I know you think it's ridiculous to carry your beliefs to their logical conclusion. I agree. It's just fun watching your cognitive dissonance at work.


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