# For Male BS, who chose a quick D over R how did it go?



## Jponce06 (Feb 24, 2016)

I've read plenty of threads and posts where male BS talk about reading emails, VAR or texts that were truly soul crushing. I don't know if I could do it. 
Which made me wonder if some Male BS spouses can take the emotional punishment of having to read/hear/watch their spouses be intimate with OM. 
Wouldn't it be easier to cut and run, for does who have chose to D from the get go, what was it like. Did your WW even put up a fight, was is a phyrric victory. Although D, seems like a lose lose situation how did your life go from the start to a few years/decades later?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Jponce06 said:


> I've read plenty of threads and posts where male BS talk about reading emails, VAR or texts that were truly soul crushing. I don't know if I could do it.
> Which made me wonder if some Male BS spouses can take the emotional punishment of having to read/hear/watch their spouses be intimate with OM.
> Wouldn't it be easier to cut and run, for does who have chose to D from the get go, what was it like. Did your WW even put up a fight, was is a phyrric victory. Although D, seems like a lose lose situation how did your life go from the start to a few years/decades later?


I divorced my xWW as soon as I found out. I read a few emails when I only had suspicions, but once I got confirmation from a relative of hers I went straight to D. No VARS. No trying to recover texts. No trying to get damning evidence. Just "I know you've been seeing OM. Sign the papers." She put up a fight at first, and tried to bleed me for every cent in child support she thought she could get. She also held time with my daughter over my head. It only made my decision that much easier.

Nearly five years out, life is immeasurably better. My xWW and I actually co-parent very well. She has her life, I have mine, and neither of us interfere with the other. I went to therapy for about a year and a half, and it was probably the single best thing I've ever done. I have 50/50 time with my daughter now, and I don't pay child support anymore. (My xWW offered to give it up after three years of receiving it... Imagine that.) My daughter is quite well-adjusted, and even though her mother makes poor decisions sometimes, she has a good life and I know her mother loves her very much. My career has jumped forward leaps and bounds, and I'm making a lot more money. (Hopefully I'll be hearing about an interview for another job very soon, but even if I don't get it I've been promised a promotion at my current job next summer when a co-worker retires.) I'm financially solvent with a decent savings, and the marital house is now mine and mine alone. I've been in the best relationship of my life with an amazing woman these past few months; a friendship slowly grew out of mutual respect and attraction, and after a while we couldn't deny our feelings anymore. There is no comparison between my marriage and this relationship... It's like night and day.

Not once have I regretted my decision. I know for a fact that my life is better off this way. I can't say my formula is appropriate for everyone, and neither can I say it was all smooth sailing. I was flat broke for about two years, and I had to work really, really hard to advance my career. But it paid off. It was so much easier to focus on myself and my goals without a dysfunctional marriage in the picture.

You must have resolve and the strength to carry on, even when you're feeling punch drunk. But it was worth every penny scraped, every tear shed, and every sleepless night to have what I have today.

I don't look in the rearview mirror. I look through the windshield.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## Jponce06 (Feb 24, 2016)

Personal, I'm on the same page as you. I may go back and try out of social pressure from family or friends but forever know I'll never get over it so it be easier to just leave. 
In the middle it seems you had a rough patch of being the OM and just sleeping around a lot. But great to know you've settled down and have a happy marriage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Personal said:


> I didn't have to look for anything, my ex-wife guiltily confessed to her (physical) sexual infidelity with another man while I was away for work (we had been married for around 10 months and had a 6 month old child together), within hours of her confession I moved out and refused to talk to her.
> 
> A few weeks later at the encouragement of others and immense pleading from her we went on a few dates, in a half hearted attempt at reconciliation (we even had sex a few times). The last time I had sex with her I viscerally felt nothing but absolute disgust, contempt and hatred for her. As a consequence of those feelings I said we're done.
> 
> ...


 @Personal, you didn't cheat but you did help some married women to cheat on their husbands. So in that regard you were a cheater. ("I don't dance, but I do dance with someone who likes dancing.")


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Personal said:


> Actually in that regard since I lied to no-one, and did not undertake any deception at all I was not a cheater. On the other hand I was an adulterer, I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that distinction.
> 
> From my perspective the only person responsible for any act of marital infidelity is the cheating spouse, since they are the one who chooses to break their vows of fidelity. I also don't care what people think inside their own noggins sans any action, as far as I am concerned sexual infidelity requires a sexual act to be thus.
> 
> ...


I full well understand the distinction. 

Your distinction seems to be: You don't rob banks, you only drive the getaway car. 

And if that works for you, that's fine.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Personal said:


> In the modern Western world spouses aren't actually property and remain autonomous individuals capable of self determination and informed consent. Consequently there is no theft when something has been freely shared.



Moral vacuum.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

No meaningful distinction, IMO.

Unless, of course, any involved BS's are aware of -- and OK with -- what's going on.

ETA: ...in which case they're not actually BS's.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Personal said:


> In the modern Western world spouses aren't actually property and remain autonomous individuals capable of self determination and informed consent. Consequently there is no theft when something has been freely shared.


Conceptually, I like this perspective. It makes choices very clear and simple.

However, while there is no direct harm by you to the BS, there can be indirect harm. That's harder to identify or quantify, just as there are with so many environmental issues: polluters aren't directly harming me (usually), but their self-serving actions eventually create conditions that will harm me.


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## NoMoreTears4me (Oct 21, 2015)

Personal said:


> Actually in that regard since I lied to no-one, and did not undertake any deception at all I was not a cheater. On the other hand I was an adulterer, I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that distinction.
> 
> From my perspective the only person responsible for any act of marital infidelity is the cheating spouse, since they are the one who chose to break their vows of fidelity. I also don't care what people think inside their own noggins sans any action, as far as I am concerned sexual infidelity requires a sexual act to be thus.
> 
> ...


What a crock of sh$%!!

I guess its true if you try hard enough you can justify any action in order to shift blame to someone else. You have more in common with an adulterer than you think.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NoMoreTears4me said:


> What a crock of sh$%!!
> 
> I guess its true if you try hard enough you can justify any action in order to shift blame to someone else. You have more in common with an adulterer than you think.


 @NoMoreTears4me If you go back to his post that I replied to he admitted that he was an adulterer, but seemed to try to draw some distinction between being a cheater and being an adulterer.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> @NoMoreTears4me If you go back to his post that I replied to he admitted that he was an adulterer, but seemed to try to draw some distinction between being a cheater and being an adulterer.


This is actually a very common distinction. Both unattached AP's who are with attached partners and those who practice open relationships do NOT consider adultery to be cheating.

*adultery defined as it is in the dictionary : voluntary sexual contact between a married person and someone who is not their spouse.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Personal said:


> Actually in that regard since I lied to no-one, and did not undertake any deception at all I was not a cheater. On the other hand I was an adulterer, I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that distinction.
> 
> From my perspective the only person responsible for any act of marital infidelity is the cheating spouse, since they are the one who chose to break their vows of fidelity. I also don't care what people think inside their own noggins sans any action, as far as I am concerned sexual infidelity requires a sexual act to be thus.
> 
> ...


 I wonder if you'd have this same cavalier attitude staring down the barrel of a pissed off BS's pistol or seeing him on your doorstep with a baseball bat. Possibly ,you might see the harm you are doing to said BS as well as the at fault WW, but I doubt it. I am absolutely sure you wouldn't be able to convince the BS of your viewpoint and since he's the one who has the reasonable potential to do you great bodily harm, his is really the only viewpoint that matters at that time and place.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

After I found out about XWW’s affair, I didn’t file for D right away. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and believed her when she said that she didn’t want to divorce but wanted to R. I wasted over a year putting 100% into R, with her putting about 20%...on a good day, only to find out she was still in contact with posOM. 

I should have filed immediately and kicked her cheating lying ass out. This is my biggest regret ever! I wasted all that time, emotional/physical energy and money for nothing.

I have been divorced for almost 4 years now. I do not speak to XWW. The kids decided they wanted to live with me full time. The whole experience tore me up pretty good and my confidence and self-esteem took a big hit. I am doing better now but I am still not dating anyone. I haven’t met a woman that I wanted to invest time with. 

By contrast, XWW’s posOM dumped her before our divorce was final. She joined 3 different dating sites within two weeks of moving out and attracted tons of attention. I hear she’s had several boyfriends since the divorce and is currently seeing someone for over a year.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm guessing he's a narcissist or mild sociopath. You can't have an ounce of intelligence and not know that sleeping with a married woman has a high likelihood of causing harm to someone. 

So does his current wife know about his past history of sleeping with married women? His kids? I'm guessing not.


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## NoMoreTears4me (Oct 21, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> @NoMoreTears4me If you go back to his post that I replied to he admitted that he was an adulterer, but seemed to try to draw some distinction between being a cheater and being an adulterer.



You can call it whatever it really doesn't matter to me. Lets just say this... At some point a choice was made. Do I sleep with someone with a spouse and family or do I walk away. Is that piece of a$$ worth getting in the middle of someone's marriage. It doesn't matter what they are called at the very lease a choice was made and acted on. That is a common dominator that they cheater and other man/woman share. They both made really bad choices that were very selfish, self centered, and damaging.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

jponce06 said:


> For Male BS, who chose a quick D over R how did it go?


*I couldn't be happier with my choice!!! My life is in a MUCH better place in every aspect. I highly recommend it to all BS, male and female.*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personal said:


> Actually in that regard since I lied to no-one, and did not undertake any deception at all I was not a cheater. On the other hand I was an adulterer, I am sorry that you don't seem to understand that distinction.
> 
> From my perspective the only person responsible for any act of marital infidelity is the cheating spouse, since they are the one who chose to break their vows of fidelity. I also don't care what people think inside their own noggins sans any action, as far as I am concerned sexual infidelity requires a sexual act to be thus.
> 
> ...


You're right there is a distinction. Morally both are bankrupt. People with this attitude sums up what is wrong with this world.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Personal said:


> In the modern Western world spouses aren't actually property and remain autonomous individuals capable of self determination and informed consent. Consequently there is no theft when something has been freely shared.





Personal said:


> I didn't have to look for anything, my ex-wife guiltily confessed to her (physical) sexual infidelity with another man while I was away for work (we had been married for around 10 months and had a 6 month old child together), within hours of her confession I moved out and refused to talk to her


You do not see the HYPOCRACY of these two statements?

If you are so enlightened and your spouse has the right to hand out her body like free candy then.... 

Why were you so mad when she did bro? Why you so mad???




Personal said:


> I see nothing at all wrong with people having sex with cheating spouses, unless they're cheating on their spouses as well.


If you see nothing wrong with adultery, then you are morally bankrupt. You'd think the karma bus rolling over you would of changed your opinion.

Human decency alone (ie not wanting to hurt someone, even a stranger) should make you perhaps reconsider fvcking someone with a spouse.


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## NoMoreTears4me (Oct 21, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Your right there is a distinction. Morally both are bankrupt. People with this attitude sums up what is wrong with this world.


I could not agree more. But it is amusing to listen to the justifications. Those with any common sense, self respect, and self worth should be able to walk away from a situation of being with a married person. If for some reason they were lied to and you didn't know the person was married it can get a little more complicated. 

I guess its just a sore point for most of us. We have heard all the lies before and at some point its all just a load of crap. It all boils down to how can I offload any guilt for my actions.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Can the thread get back on track please? Personal's choices are are just those...personal. No need to agree or disagree, he was sharing his experience. 

JPonce, there was a member here, BashfulBull, who dropped his cheating wife with no hesitation. He was kind of a hero here on TAM, lol.... Here it is if you care to read:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/93642-i-abandoned-my-cheating-wife.html


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

@Bananapeel moved pretty quickly toward divorce as well. I recall that he initially expressed at least some interest in reconciliation, but realized very quickly that -- given his XWW's obsession w/ OM -- it would've been a fruitless endeavor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Jponce06 said:


> I've read plenty of threads and posts where male BS talk about reading emails, VAR or texts that were truly soul crushing. I don't know if I could do it.
> Which made me wonder if some Male BS spouses can take the emotional punishment of having to read/hear/watch their spouses be intimate with OM.
> Wouldn't it be easier to cut and run, for does who have chose to D from the get go, what was it like. Did your WW even put up a fight, was is a phyrric victory. Although D, seems like a lose lose situation how did your life go from the start to a few years/decades later?


After I caught my XWW on a VAR (I listened to it) I acted quickly and was divorced 3 months later (I had to find a good attorney and there's a 2 month waiting period in my state). Catching her was soul crushing and I had to go to the employee crisis counseling that day because I was shaking so much and couldn't focus. The worst part for me wasn't the cheating but the realization that all the work/value/commitment that I put into our relationship and family over the years wasn't worth anything to her. I had a hard time accepting that initially because, quite frankly, I am out of her league so her cheating on me wasn't something that was understandable to my pragmatic mind. I hesitated a little at the beginning, and quite honestly would have tried R if she had showed remorse, which fortunately she didn't. I chose to D and I don't regret it at all. My XWW didn't put up a fight because she thought she was in love with the OM and hoped that they'd end up together (didn't happen). It wasn't a pyrrhic victory or any victory, it was just a necessary change in my life's direction at that point. I do need to point out that one of the big things this experience has taught me was to view people as they actually are and not as how you want them to be. After the D I found out and confirmed that she had at least one other affair during our marriage, but by that point I didn't care. 

I'm over a year post D and so far things are going very well for me. Like any other decision in life it had both positive and negative consequences that accompanied it. The first few months were the hardest because that was a transition point where I was still somewhat emotionally attached to my XWW. Now I have no attachment to her, my kids have adapted and are happy, I'm a much better father and have developed closer bonds with my kids, I have more time for myself, I have much more money than I've had before, and I have developed closer relationships with my family and several of my friends. On the negative side I have developed trust issues, only have 50% custody, and I don't like that my XWW makes some questionable decisions about the kids that I can't prevent.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Personal said:


> At the end of the day if someone's spouse doesn't care for their own marital fidelity, I don't think anyone else should feel obliged to care for that marital fidelity either. That said the only marital infidelity I care about is if it is done to me, likewise the only person I hold responsible for such infidelity is the person breaking their vows.
> 
> I see nothing at all wrong with people having sex with cheating spouses, unless they're cheating on their spouses as well.
> 
> ...


But what you did... you *ARE* part of the problem. You are not ANY better than your wife cheating on you. If you were really hurt by her actions, then Why THE would you be a party to causing someone else that kind of pain? Your morals seems to be out of wack. Maybe you were NOT actually hurt at all by your wife's infidelity in which SHE came out to you, rather than you finding out for yourself. You D your wife because she simply broke a boundary (duh), more insulted than any kind of hurt.

It's a SIMPLE rule... you DON'T put yourself between a married couple. Many OMs have ended up getting the crap beat out of them or killed. I never came close to hurting my wife over her cheating - but the OM, he knew better. He worked on her, lied to both of us... But him. Yeah, he was within the possibility of being killed. Only reason, is I am against violence and doing so isn't worth going to prison and ruining my own life and that of my son. The later is the only reason he still walks.

It takes TWO to cheat. Maybe those woman cheated because of how YOU interacted with them? If they approached you, taking the high ground would have been "sorry, I am not going be involved with breaking up a family".

Your xWW is more respectable than you are. She seemed to have remorse for her actions. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did it.


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## NoMoreTears4me (Oct 21, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> Can the thread get back on track please? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/93642-i-abandoned-my-cheating-wife.html


Your right sorry. Its just when I read stuff like that I cant help it.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Jponce06 said:


> I've read plenty of threads and posts where male BS talk about reading emails, VAR or texts that were truly soul crushing. I don't know if I could do it.
> Which made me wonder if some Male BS spouses can take the emotional punishment of having to read/hear/watch their spouses be intimate with OM.
> Wouldn't it be easier to cut and run, for does who have chose to D from the get go, what was it like. Did your WW even put up a fight, was is a phyrric victory. Although D, seems like a lose lose situation how did your life go from the start to a few years/decades later?


My spouse claims she doesn't, and never did like sex, and only initiated in our dating days "because men expect it". Back in those days, she told a different story, and the sexual activity was the most frequent and almost highest variety I'd ever experienced - there was nothing in her early behaviors that said she didn't like it, because she had certainly figured out how to do a lot of it.

The fact that she now claims she never liked it - well, I actually do understand the psychological underpinnings of a "people pleaser" and why they literally cannot tell the truth because they're driven more strongly to please people than to be honest with themselves - but the impact of having been misled, intentionally, for 10+ years is still in me - 

Anyway, with this claim that she never liked it - and me still feeling lied to - if I were to find out she's getting it on with someone else - that would feel like a lie compounded upon a lie compounded upon the first lie - I seriously doubt I would make any attempt to reconcile.


As for splitting and recovery: With my ex, once I decided I needed to go, I put a few simple things in place. I had arranged a place to stay, and had packed enough clothing to go a week without laundry. I chose to deliver the message at a quiet restaurant, so we weren't surrounded by the stuff that was always around us when she was having a screaming fit. I had planted a second car at the restaurant. So, I gave her the message, placed more than enough money on the table to pay for the meal we had just finished, and left. I felt instantly wonderful.

Two days later, I wondered if I'd started a nuclear melt-down that would cause my entire world to collapse. Two weeks after that, I got laid off and felt very, very, unsupported and vulnerable. And experienced a panic attack - two of them. It's horrible, knowing, as a certainty, that you're either having a heart attack, or your brain is self-shredding or what the heck is this that's happening that's causing me to be blind and deaf and can't even feel if I'm standing or sitting? Thankfully, having survived two of them, I knew when the third hit, that I'd survive it, too, and that was enough to stop it. It was awful.

About one month after I'd split, I had secured a long-term rental. Alone and a bit lonely, but the process of setting up a home in a tiny apartment kept me occupied. A month after that, I borrowed a friend's truck and got all the rest of my stuff from the house. I left a note telling her that I had no claim on anything else in the house, so she could have it.

I had no desire for female companionship, and did something totally not like me. I went to church. And synagogue. And mosques. And Buddhist temples. I got infatuated with religion and mankind's need for it. And met friends of both genders.

I would say, overall, 60 days after separating from her, all thoughts of feeling guilty/bad/hopeless were gone. I had some worries about money, like would she come after me for something, but what, exactly, since I'd given it all to her? She never did. BTW, we had no kids, and by her insistence, also were not married...but were monogamous for 10+ years.

Within 6 months, I was enjoying life WAY better than literally any time when we were together.

Financially? Having simply given her everything meant no debt to her. It was over and done with. I had no debt, but also no income. Spent down my 401k in two years, got a lower paying job, but kept my lifestyle more modest. Being 36, single and no kids made me very popular with divorced women and single moms my age.

So...I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Don't want to, but if I found out the spouse was doing someone else...yeah, I'd pull the plug.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I've been reading and posting on Infidelity forums for 5 years and I've never read a single BH say that they regretted their decision to divorce their WW. I've read plenty of posts from BH's who are miserable trying to reconcile & some who say they have reconciled but they still have issues with the whole mess and are far from happy. Many of them readily admit they are staying because it's easier and they value their family higher than their own happiness. They believe they are scraficing their life for their family.

I personally have two close friends whose wives cheated on them and both divorced immediately. Neither has the slightest regret, but neither of them can co-parent well with their xWW's due to their intense hatred of her. One got primary custody of his two boys and the other pretty much stopped seeing his two girls. There's never a fairy tale ending to and infidelity story but divorce is as good as it gets in my opinion.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Personal, you didn't cheat but you did help some married women to cheat on their husbands. So in that regard you were a cheater. ("I don't dance, but I do dance with someone who likes dancing.")


I think his cavalier attitude towards being the other man is probably because it's the only way he'll have 'revenge' over his wife for cheating.

Look at all the other stuff he writes. His life couldn't be better! Everything is amazing! All the girls love him!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Personal said:


> In the modern Western world spouses aren't actually property and remain autonomous individuals capable of self determination and informed consent. Consequently there is no theft when something has been freely shared.


Situational ethics are very interesting. The idea of 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' doesn't seem to one of your personal values. I guess each to his own.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Personal said:


> But make no mistake if your (as in the generic you for all that follows) spouse cheats on you they chose it, they knew what they were doing, they were willing and they wanted it and more than likely certainly enjoyed it. *If you think they're not responsible for their marital infidelity and someone else is...*


Eh... that's not what's going on here and you know it.

Each and every one of us -- whether WS, BS, OM, OW, or none of the above -- is accountable and responsible for his or her own decisions.

Full stop.

And, though there are certainly many among us that will deny this to some degree or another, we each _know_ it to be true.

Say my wife cheats. EA, full-on PA, whatever. She's accountable for that.

As for OM? It's almost a certainty that he never made any promises to _me_ regarding... well, NOT f*cking my wife.

But he's _still_ a piece of sh*t for doing or having done it.

And sure, it might have been some other guy.

Well, then THAT guy would be a piece of sh*t.



Personal said:


> ...your barking up the wrong tree and may have limited comprehension skills.


Not really. (There are, after all, _two_ trees.)

It is, however, an understanding of the following:

When one's only _real_ defense for his or her sh*t behavior basically boils down to a) pointing out the "sh*ttier" behavior of those w/ whom he or she was complicit and b) a misdirect aimed at "outdated spousal ownership" concepts, there's no _real_ defense to be found.

In short, it's recognizing a conditional morality -- or, as @aine put it, situational ethics -- when you see it.

Nice try, though.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Personal said:


> Au contraire I practice do unto others quite nicely. For example since I have an expectation that no one should breach any promise of sexual fidelity to me, I do not and have not ever broken any of my promises of sexual fidelity to anyone else at all.


I would not wish it on anyone, but imagine an OM who takes a great fancy to your current wife and pursues her diligently, gives her lots of attention, sends her flowers, gives her gifts and little love notes, sends her vouchers for spas, holidays, surprise gifts, etc. Your wife does not reciprocate in any way (therefore remaining faithful to you, no breach of fidelity to you) but he tries all out to court her over a few months. You would be ok with that, right?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Personal said:


> Then he has no obligation to you, so expecting him to care is simply naive at best.


I've learned to expect nothing from anyone from whom I shouldn't expect anything.

That would include the aforementioned hypothetical OM. After all, if he "cared" at all, he wouldn't be f*cking my wife.

But that doesn't mean that he's _not_ a POS for f*cking my wife.

Also doesn't mean that my wife isn't a POS for f*cking _him_.

Quite the opposite, actually.

In _both_ cases.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Personal said:


> Look absent a spouse breaking vows of fidelity there is no infidelity.
> 
> The difference between marital infidelity and no marital infidelity in consensual sex is one or more participating consensual sexual partners is breaking their vow of marital infidelity.
> 
> It really is that simple remove a cheating spouse from marital infidelity and you don't have marital infidelity.


And yet adultery (i.e. being complicit in the commission of marital infidelity) alone is enough to make one a POS.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> After the D I found out and confirmed that she had at least one other affair during our marriage, but by that point I didn't care.


Ouch.

Just curious, how did you find out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jponce06 (Feb 24, 2016)

I'm not sure if this guy is for real or a very elaborate troll.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

sokillme said:


> You're right there is a distinction. Morally both are bankrupt. People with this attitude sums up what is wrong with this world.


Couldn't agree more.

My ex wife's OM knew full well she was married, but pursued her any way.

No, she wasn't my 'property', but my life is, and he (and she) absolutely did steal that from me.

All for the best in the long run (as it usually is), but there most certainly is an air of theft when this type of thing happens.

Morally sound people simply don't do this sort of thing. My ex wife's OM should have, at least, told her to get back to him once she's no longer with me, if there was that much of an attraction.

Quite honestly, I would have begrudgingly respected that, and likewise her, had she gone about it that way.

*ETA - upon reading further, it seems as though Personal neglected to tell us that the first married woman did not tell him she was married, and the second was separated. This would have been helpful information from the start...

Though he did still sleep with married woman #1 after finding out she was married... So back to square 1, I guess.

Whatever.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

In response to the original question - 

I missed all the warning signs/red flags with my ex wife. Therefore I did not have the unfortunate opportunity of snooping or otherwise finding things I did not want to see or read, and I am genuinely glad it happened that way. In an odd way, I'm grateful that my ex wife actually left for the OM, and it wasn't a casual, meaningless thing. Silver linings and all.

After she left, and things came to light, I had multiple opportunities to dig around and get all the 'facts'. I probably could have gone through ~2 years of emails and PM's from a forum (where they met), but I chose not to.

Believe me, I WANTED to, but it would have served no purpose. I credit it to the fact that it only took me ~2 weeks of not being with her to get out of the fog, and realize I was better off without her. Those first two weeks were typical of these types of situations ("What will I do?" "Nobody loves me" "Whyyyyyy?" etc.), then I snapped out of it. Two weeks of doing things on my own, on my own schedule was enough to wake me up to the fact that I was, indeed, better off. We weren't partners, it was a dictatorship. Even though normal marital obligations were split evenly, it was to her standards and her schedule.

The funny thing was, that each time she came by the house (which I now lived in - she moved out, thankfully), she was astonished at how clean and tidy everything was.

Any way, I did not delve into her illicit affair, even though I had the chance to. There was no purpose in doing so, and it only would have hurt me. I did not need to potentially read about how I didn't measure up to her needs, or that OM gives her everything she desires, etc etc etc.

However, I've often wished that I discovered it all prior to her leaving. There were numerous near-misses over the previous 2 years, things that I didn't pick up on back then. A few weeks before we split up, we went on vacation, and the plane tickets had been sent to her email account. I went to go print them out, only to discover she had changed her password (red flag!!!). I remember shouting downstairs to her about this. Long pause, awkward silence. "Hang on". She flew upstairs, said "I'll do it", at which point I was already sitting down at the computer. "Just give me your password". She typed it in, over my shoulder (rather than saying it), then hovered over me, completely silent, while her email loaded. Luckily for her, I was only focused on getting the plane tickets printed out, so I clearly remember not even looking at anything that wasn't them.

Literally, the day after she announced she was leaving (she didn't say for an OM), I decided to snoop her email, remembering a few weeks prior how she had acted, and that her password had changed. It had changed again (big surprise), but I just left it. Never said anything about it. And was oddly relieved she had changed it again. I guess I knew somewhere in the back of my mind that I really didn't WANT to know.

Like I alluded to, my marriage wasn't that great to begin with, so I recognized early on that it was no great loss. What I genuinely hated her for was HOW the marriage ended. Regardless of whether I was better off with or without her, it was still a betrayal, and that sucks.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

It was my x wife who first purposed we divorce, out of the blue I get the I love you but not in love with you speech. I'm floored and trying desperately to find out what has suddenly made her so unhappy after 15 years total together. I had this nagging feeling it was someone else but just didn't want to believe it. I was desperate and begging, believing her lies I even offered to quit my job and move to a place she would be happier. Sad state I was. The moment I stood with her phone in hand reading the texts from her POSOM a light switch flipped in me. I was disgusted by her and all she had betrayed. I knew their was no forgiving her for this thing she did to me and our children. 

Now I wanted the divorce and started making my plans to get out and knew my old life was older. I do often wonder what would have happened if I never learned the truth. I may be a shell of what I am now and possibly never moved on. Finding out was a big time key to my recovery and allowed me saved years of meaningless attempted reconciliation that would never work for me personally


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Just curious, how did you find out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't want to threadjack. I'll send you a PM.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> In response to the original question -
> 
> I missed all the warning signs/red flags with my ex wife. Therefore I did not have the unfortunate opportunity of snooping or otherwise finding things I did not want to see or read, and I am genuinely glad it happened that way. In an odd way, I'm grateful that my ex wife actually left for the OM, and it wasn't a casual, meaningless thing. Silver linings and all.
> 
> ...


Where is she now?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> I don't want to threadjack. I'll send you a PM.


I don't believe it would be a threadjack in the context of this thread, and after reading your story I'd be interested in how you found out also.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> My spouse claims she doesn't, and never did like sex, and only initiated in our dating days "because men expect it". Back in those days, she told a different story, and the sexual activity was the most frequent and almost highest variety I'd ever experienced - there was nothing in her early behaviors that said she didn't like it, because she had certainly figured out how to do a lot of it.
> 
> The fact that she now claims she never liked it - well, I actually do understand the psychological underpinnings of a "people pleaser" and why they literally cannot tell the truth because they're driven more strongly to please people than to be honest with themselves - but the impact of having been misled, intentionally, for 10+ years is still in me -
> 
> ...


How did she react did she try to get you back?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personal said:


> If all spouses choose not to participate in marital infidelity, there will be no marital infidelity.


And if all people choose never to mess with someone who was married to someone else then there would also be no marital infidelity.

Just saying.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personal said:


> Au contraire I practice do unto others quite nicely. For example since I have an expectation that no one should breach any promise of sexual fidelity to me, I do not and have not ever broken any of my promises of sexual fidelity to anyone else at all.


Here is my take on guys like you, though I am sure you don't care. You are right in a sense that you owe nothing to the guy whose wife made vows technically. You didn't say vows. But you do owe it to society and to yourself. I wonder what other things that most people feel are the morally right things to do that you also feel aren't necessarily for you to worry about. Since as you say it seems you only think it is necessary for you to follow the explicit ones. As such I would never do business when someone like you, or even be friends with someone like you. After all we could be best friends and you might still pursue my wife right? Not your problem if she cheats on me. We could be brothers, not your issue.

That being said I wonder how you would feel if your good friend started hitting on your wife? Would you have a problem with this or is it all good? After all he made no vows to you. Maybe he is just attracted to her.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

I actually find Personal's accounts quite reasonable. There's a lot of hurt projection going on here.
His point is he doesn't even know the husbands at best, and at worst knows of them as abusers through their wives. I doubt he would make a pass at his friends' wives.

My mom always blamed the other woman for the cheating. Oh, she was the low-bred, low-class, filthy man-stealing b*tch while my dad was simply "confused" or "naive". Ha ha. Not being able to fully blame the person you love, you shift it onto the only other one responsible (and yet infinitely less deserving of your hatred).



sokillme said:


> And if all people choose never to mess with someone who was married to someone else then there would also be no marital infidelity.
> 
> Just saying.


Yes, but fidelity of marriage is up to the two in the marriage to upkeep. Nobody else. Those two made a promise to each other. The world owes them nothing. And wouldn't you rather trust the sacrament of your own marriage to yourself and your partner, not to the world? To your partner's and your own ability to keep promises you made each other? The other people in the world don't know what you promised each other. How could they. Marriage means different things to different people. There's open marriages, for one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

vel said:


> The world owes them nothing.


The world owes them nothing huh? So you believe in survival of the fittest. To me this is also a morally bankrupt idea. Why do we not litter? Why do we pay taxes. Drink and drive? Medicare for the sick and powerless. There are so many things we do for the betterment of society that has nothing to do with being owed. 

Let me ask you this, if I see a crime lets make it something heinous like rape is it my moral obligation to report it, stop it? Why I owe this person nothing. Again taking your philosophy to the full extent why even have a society. 

My philosophy is "Do no harm", I would much rather be with people who think like me. It's much safer that way.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

I'm not saying go sleep with married people as long as you're single. It's wrong. However that crime is minor, compared to the crime the married person commits in turn!
To use a crude example, let's compare getting married to going on a diet. But if McDonalds bombards you with ads for cheeseburgers and then you end up eating one, cheating on your diet... who have you got to blame except yourself? There's always going to be food around. You are the one who went on a diet.

Should society have healthier food options, ban McDonalds and transfats, etc? Why not, in a perfect world, that'd be great. In a perfect world, everyone would "Do no harm". Seeing as a perfect world isn't happening anytime soon, I'd rather just simply be able to trust myself and the person I married.


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## Jponce06 (Feb 24, 2016)

I think most BH who went for D did the right thing. I stumbled on an old thread here where some guy said how he heard him and his WW OM having sex through VAR. she was moaning and making more pleasurable sounds than she ever did with him. She later confessed because he was bigger and she had trouble fitting it...
He was going to divorce her but she was remorseful...wtf

No amount of remorse can erase that bull****...


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> @NoMoreTears4me If you go back to his post that I replied to he admitted that he was an adulterer, but seemed to try to draw some distinction between being a cheater and being an adulterer.


Yes, he didn't betray his partner (there was none,) he just helped someone betray their's. Sounds like a Narcissistic view of things, unfortunaeatly this is more and more common as we move to a more godless society and into post modern society. The golden rule is not carrying the weight it used to.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Justadude said:


> Yes, he didn't betray his partner (there was none,) he just helped someone betray their's. Sounds like a Narcissistic view of things, unfortunaeatly this is more and more common as we move to a more godless society and into post modern society. The golden rule is not carrying the weight it used to.


Good thing Christians are never guilty of adultery, or your point would be silly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

Decimated said:


> After I found out about XWW’s affair, I didn’t file for D right away. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and believed her when she said that she didn’t want to divorce but wanted to R. I wasted over a year putting 100% into R, with her putting about 20%...on a good day, only to find out she was still in contact with posOM.
> 
> I should have filed immediately and kicked her cheating lying ass out. This is my biggest regret ever! I wasted all that time, emotional/physical energy and money for nothing.
> 
> ...


That's almost exactly my story. But I don't regret my R attempts, because it answered the question "Could I have saved it" for all time. So for me that is peace of mind, and I can forever say I gave it my best shot and tried to keep the family in tact.

Now my X is remarried, and tells me from time to time how great the new husband is, and how bad a husband/father I was/am. I have worked on not hating her for the last 3 years, and I'm pretty much there on days that I don't get text attacked.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

vel said:


> I actually find Personal's accounts quite reasonable. There's a lot of hurt projection going on here.
> His point is he doesn't even know the husbands at best, and at worst knows of them as abusers through their wives. I doubt he would make a pass at his friends' wives.
> 
> My mom always blamed the other woman for the cheating. Oh, she was the low-bred, low-class, filthy man-stealing b*tch while my dad was simply "confused" or "naive". Ha ha. Not being able to fully blame the person you love, you shift it onto the only other one responsible (and yet infinitely less deserving of your hatred).
> ...


The old firing squad justification. Six marksmen. One rifle contains a blank. You can't say for certain that you helped kill the criminal. 

Except in the case of a marriage it's 100 marksmen, one blank, and the execution target is a BS, the BS's kids, the BS's extended family, etc. I'm glad that you feel so comfortable taking that shot when the odds of it being blank are so low and the potential damage is so minimal.


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Good thing Christians are never guilty of adultery, or your point would be silly.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Some Christians are guilty of adultery because they are peole too. However the point is that if there is a moral code that you are suppossed to live by, it does help keep behavior in check to some degree. If there is no moral code, then it's a free for all. Our society is increasingly rules free....code free....and that's not a good thing...even if you hate God.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> No I just kissed her for a bit after I found out.


I took your choice of words ("snogged") to mean something else. Pardon me, I'm Canadian :grin2:

So at the end of it all, including defence of your actions, you never actually knowingly slept with a married woman. Why didn't you just say that???


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Justadude said:


> Yes, he didn't betray his partner (there was none,) he just helped someone betray their's. Sounds like a Narcissistic view of things, unfortunaeatly this is more and more common as we move to a more godless society and into post modern society. The golden rule is not carrying the weight it used to.


It's far more than the golden rule, it's directly spelled out in the ten commandments. You get dinged for committing adultery if you are married, and you also dinged for coveting your neighbor's wife if you are the affair partner.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

sokillme said:


> Where is she now?


AFAIK, still with him, in another country. Haven't heard anything about her in 5 or 6 years now, so I can't honestly say.

Oddly enough, I hope she's still with the guy and that they're happy. Not for her sake, or his, just so the whole thing was worth it in the end. I'd much rather a 14 year long relationship and marriage blew up for for somebody who she viewed as worth it, instead of just skanking around. They're both still scumbags, though.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Good thing Christians are never guilty of adultery, or your point would be silly.


Weak argument.

You're better than that, sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

vel said:


> I actually find Personal's accounts quite reasonable. There's a lot of hurt projection going on here.
> His point is he doesn't even know the husbands at best, and at worst knows of them as abusers through their wives. I doubt he would make a pass at his friends' wives.


Would it be more wrong if he and the guy were friends? Why? Is it just because the guy is a friend he supposedly has some form of emotional connection? What if he doesn't think that matters after all, using his logic he didn't make any vows to the friend or the guys wife. Again this is why I would just stay away if I heard someone profess these values. 

On a side note conversations like this are a good way to assess how dangerous people are to your life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Good thing Christians are never guilty of adultery, or your point would be silly.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


In my experience Christians are some of the worst people I have ever been around, and have done some of the worst stuff. There is a reason why they need repentance. Repentance doesn't often fix mental illness and personality disorder.

Assuming because someone is Religious they are good people is a very dangerous assumption. Many cases it is the opposite.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vel said:


> I actually find Personal's accounts quite reasonable. There's a lot of hurt projection going on here.
> His point is he doesn't even know the husbands at best, and at worst knows of them as abusers through their wives. I doubt he would make a pass at his friends' wives.


Say OM is an acquaintance of mine. Or my best friend. Or my cousin. Or my brother. Or a complete stranger.

What does he have to be to me to make him a POS?

_Nothing other than the guy banging my wife._

Being my friend, brother, or whatever makes him an even *BIGGER* POS.

"Less blame" or "not as bad" doesn't equal "no blame" or "not bad".

And, just because this conversation will probably wind up going there, "bros before hos" doesn't mean that my buddy, brother, or whatever gets a pass from me for banging the GF or wife that I'm about to dump -- it means that he doesn't put me in a position where I'm faced w/ any such decision where he's concerned.

IOW, he doesn't bang her -- or even pursue her -- in the first place.



vel said:


> My mom always blamed the other woman for the cheating. Oh, she was the low-bred, low-class, filthy man-stealing b*tch while my dad was simply "confused" or "naive". Ha ha. Not being able to fully blame the person you love, you shift it onto the only other one responsible (and yet infinitely less deserving of your hatred).


Turns out your mom was right about OW, but wrong about your dad.



vel said:


> Yes, but fidelity of marriage is up to the two in the marriage to upkeep. Nobody else. Those two made a promise to each other. The world owes them nothing. And wouldn't you rather trust the sacrament of your own marriage to yourself and your partner, not to the world? To your partner's and your own ability to keep promises you made each other? The other people in the world don't know what you promised each other. How could they. Marriage means different things to different people. There's open marriages, for one.


There is no way to compare an open marriage to any situation involving infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Justadude said:


> That's almost exactly my story. But I don't regret my R attempts, because it answered the question "Could I have saved it" for all time. So for me that is peace of mind, and I can forever say I gave it my best shot and tried to keep the family in tact.
> 
> *Now my X is remarried, and tells me from time to time how great the new husband is, and how bad a husband/father I was/am*. I have worked on not hating her for the last 3 years, and I'm pretty much there on days that I don't get text attacked.


Well we know the truth, and your kids know the truth. 

Don't hate your XWW. Pity her. She is delusional and lost, and she is living an unauthentic life. I guarantee you she is not as happy as she thinks she is. Her new husband will cheat on her, or she him. It is in their natures.

Your XWW has to tell you those things to justify what she did. Deep down she is carrying a deep guilt, but like most cheaters her overriding ego will not allow that guilt to give way to the truth. Her fragile sense of herself is predicated on making you out to be the father of all evil and wrongness in the world. You combat her venom by doing what you are doing: being the best dad you can be, being the best man you can be. You will come out on top in the end.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Justadude said:


> That's almost exactly my story. But I don't regret my R attempts, because it answered the question "Could I have saved it" for all time. So for me that is peace of mind, and I can forever say I gave it my best shot and tried to keep the family in tact.
> 
> Now my X is remarried, and tells me from time to time how great the new husband is, and how bad a husband/father I was/am. I have worked on not hating her for the last 3 years, and I'm pretty much there on days that I don't get text attacked.


Are the kids w/ you or her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Justadude said:


> Some Christians are guilty of adultery because they are peole too. However the point is that if there is a moral code that you are suppossed to live by, it does help keep behavior in check to some degree. If there is no moral code, then it's a free for all. Our society is increasingly rules free....code free....and that's not a good thing...even if you hate God.


Being a Christian does not make you immune to sin. All being a Christian does is heighten the level of accountability.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> In my experience Christians are some of the worst people I have ever been around, and have done some of the worst stuff. There is a reason why they need repentance. Repentance doesn't often fix mental illness and personality disorder.
> 
> Assuming because someone is Religious they are good people is a very dangerous assumption. Many cases it is the opposite.


As a Christian and recovering ex-Baptist I would agree with you that many Christians today leave a lot to be desired. But that doesn't sway my beliefs or my attempts to live by those beliefs. My Christian ideals are firmly entrenched, even though I am no longer a "practicing" or "churchgoing" Christian. 

But in defense of Christians, I don't see very many of them cutting off peoples heads, stoning women to death, setting off sarin gas in subways, bombing embassies, brainwashing hundreds into drinking poisoned Kool-aid, or flying airliners into skyscrapers. There are far, far worse religious fanatics out there. Christians are mostly just just irritating and hypocritical, not destructive.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I do not break my promises. I am not in the habit of encouraging/helping other people to break their promises either. If it's something I would never do myself, why would I approve of someone else doing it?

Counsel to Commit Murder is still a crime, even if you don't get the blood on your own hands.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> As a Christian and recovering ex-Baptist I would agree with you that many Christians today leave a lot to be desired. But that doesn't sway my beliefs or my attempts to live by those beliefs. My Christian ideals are firmly entrenched, even though I am no longer a "practicing" or "churchgoing" Christian.
> 
> But in defense of Christians, I don't see very many of them cutting off peoples heads, stoning women to death, setting off sarin gas in subways, bombing embassies, brainwashing hundreds into drinking poisoned Kool-aid, or flying airliners into skyscrapers. There are far, far worse religious fanatics out there. Christians are mostly just just irritating and hypocritical, not destructive.


As a Church going Christian all my life, still. Most Christian atrocities I have witnessed have been the interpersonal kind. Using the power position (pastor) to get sex, saying this was God's will. Shamming others for status. Things of that nature. Again this was not an attack on religion, just the idea that religion makes people better, I think there is a good argument to be made that more "lost" people are in religion preciously because they are lost. I don't think the followers have anything to do with the philosophy however, when has it ever.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> How did she react did she try to get you back?


She did, and I was honestly shocked. I had embarked upon efforts to improve our situation. She had always admitted she could not handle anger well...what she didn't say is that when angry, she attacked people, the closer to her they were, the more viscious. I noted one day that the first thing she said to me every morning was an insult or criticism, was there anything I could do to help? She said that's b&&[email protected]@@ I don't do that, I [email protected]@##!! dare you to record me! So I did, for a week, and gave her the recording. Her response? So [email protected]@$$!! what, everybody does that, you're too fragile and sensitive! And so it went.

She terminated every discussion about how to improve the relationship by saying "Maybe you can change, but I can't, so if you don't think things are perfect, then leave, because I can't change and I won't like you if you do" or "If a relationship takes work to keep together, it's time to end it".

So, after contemplating, talking with a counselor about stuff, trying different approaches, and still coming home to a verbal attack every day, I decided enough was enough. Thankfully, she had given me exactly what to say.

At the place she insisted on going every Friday for exactly the same "meal" (nachos and red wine), I said "I've decided to accept your offer. You said if I didn't think things were perfect, I should leave. I don't think things are perfect, far from it, as I have discussed with you for a few years now, so I'm leaving." I put enough moolah on the table to pay for dinner, headed out, grabbed my car (we'd gone to the place in hers) and left.

She called me the next day and said she had thought it over and wanted to talk. I figured a talk wasn't risky, so we met for coffee. She asked "exactly what is it that you're not pleased with?" I said it's quite a few things, do you want one or many? She said start with one. So I mentioned the morning insult greeting and she replied well that's just stupid get over it, you don't deserve any better. We covered a few more things and her reply was the same. So I said, "and that's it - every time I indicate that I need something different, you say I don't deserve it. Well, I do deserve it, so thanks for the conversation."

She tried to manipulate by telling me "the dog misses you, can she stay with you for a week?" and I'd let it happen, then when the week was up she wanted to go out to dinner with me. I finally got a dog from the pound and next time she wanted me to have 'our' dog for a week, I said I got a dog and he's not nice to other dogs, so it's not the best idea.

She sends multi-page whiny letters every year - one of those "what my last year was like" - to hundreds of people. They're all about how the world is against her, how she's smarter than managers at work and frankly, they sound suicidal. Best that I can tell, since I left her, she's gone on dates - but never with the same guy twice.


I hope she finds some happiness in life, but the person I knew her as was angry and after some time, that became the only way she knew how to respond to life - and she just got more and more angry. Sad.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> She called me the next day and said she had thought it over and wanted to talk. I figured a talk wasn't risky, so we met for coffee. She asked "exactly what is it that you're not pleased with?" I said it's quite a few things, do you want one or many? She said start with one. So I mentioned the morning insult greeting and she replied well that's just stupid get over it, you don't deserve any better. We covered a few more things and her reply was the same. So I said, "and that's it - every time I indicate that I need something different, you say I don't deserve it. Well, I do deserve it, so thanks for the conversation."
> 
> She tried to manipulate by telling me "the dog misses you, can she stay with you for a week?" and I'd let it happen, then when the week was up she wanted to go out to dinner with me. I finally got a dog from the pound and next time she wanted me to have 'our' dog for a week, I said I got a dog and he's not nice to other dogs, so it's not the best idea.
> 
> ...


Wow, you certainly did the right thing for yourself getting away from that woman! Personality disorder much?? What a b!tch.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

VermisciousKnid said:


> The old firing squad justification. Six marksmen. One rifle contains a blank. You can't say for certain that you helped kill the criminal.
> 
> Except in the case of a marriage it's 100 marksmen, one blank, and the execution target is a BS, the BS's kids, the BS's extended family, etc. I'm glad that you feel so comfortable taking that shot when the odds of it being blank are so low and the potential damage is so minimal.


Why would you compare a cheater with a tied up blindfolded criminal destined to die? Firing squads make sure the criminal dies, 100% of the time. You're giving wayyyy too much power to seducers. They only have as much power as the cheater gives them (willingly)!

If you want to talk about bullets and firing squads, it would only be a fair comparison if every cheater is actually Neo from Matrix. Fully capable of stopping all 5 bullets, but choosing to get hit by a few to feel more ~pleasure or ~exciting.

The cheater is the one who made the conscious decision to cheat, no excuses. They deserve 100% of the blame. If my husband cheats it's on him, not the other person. Is the other person scum? Maybe, maybe not. But the cheater definitely is. The cheater is the one justifying the relationship, probably saying stuff like "my wife is frigid", "my husband makes me feel lonely", "oh yeah totes getting a divorce someday"... Why's it up to the other person to find out if these are lies, to figure out if the marriage just needs a little counseling, to decide if the marriage is worthy of fidelity? HALF of the marriage is already telling the other person, nope this marriage sucks! Help me make the most of life!



sokillme said:


> Would it be more wrong if he and the guy were friends? Why? Is it just because the guy is a friend he supposedly has some form of emotional connection? What if he doesn't think that matters after all, using his logic he didn't make any vows to the friend or the guys wife. Again this is why I would just stay away if I heard someone profess these values.
> 
> On a side note conversations like this are a good way to assess how dangerous people are to your life.


I can't answer for Personal, but I never said it wasn't wrong. If you know someone is married and still go on propositioning them, then you don't really value the sanctity of marriage. However, if you're MARRIED and STILL don't value the sanctity of marriage, that's a lot worse, wouldn't you say?




GusPolinski said:


> Turns out your mom was right about OW, but wrong about your dad.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way to compare an open marriage to any situation involving infidelity.


You don't really know the situation, but the OW was much younger and she never met my mom and just assumed my mom was some old frigid infertile hag and that my dad deserved much better. OW is definitely a piece of work but I wouldn't call her evil. She was the real naive one who thought my dad would eventually marry her.

If you read, I brought up open marriage because nobody else can know how deep your marriage is. How much do you respect your marriage? How faithful do you expect each other to be? What is cheating in your own marriage? Those are questions only the two people in the marriage can answer for themselves (and sometimes, if they don't communicate well, may even have different expectations! ie is sexcam cheating, etc).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Being a Christian does not make you immune to sin. All being a Christian does is heighten the level of accountability.


Only if they're right.

In Maslow's terms, it's an externally applied morality. You do good because someone more powerful than you demands it. Internalizing your morality and doing good because you believe it to be good, regardless of any punishment, is true accountability.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I always enjoy stumbling into these threads. No, not the pain I dislike that immensely.

Some in depth comments explain why I can enjoy a poster's points, but some of their comments leave me like "WTF just happened?" I stumble into one of these threads and I finally understand the outbursts of anger, weird rants or random hypocrisy going on in other threads.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

vel said:


> Why would you compare a cheater with a tied up blindfolded criminal destined to die? Firing squads make sure the criminal dies, 100% of the time. You're giving wayyyy too much power to seducers. They only have as much power as the cheater gives them (willingly)!
> 
> If you want to talk about bullets and firing squads, it would only be a fair comparison if every cheater is actually Neo from Matrix. Fully capable of stopping all 5 bullets, but choosing to get hit by a few to feel more ~pleasure or ~exciting.
> 
> The cheater is the one who made the conscious decision to cheat, no excuses. They deserve 100% of the blame. If my husband cheats it's on him, not the other person. Is the other person scum? Maybe, maybe not. But the cheater definitely is. The cheater is the one justifying the relationship, probably saying stuff like "my wife is frigid", "my husband makes me feel lonely", "oh yeah totes getting a divorce someday"... Why's it up to the other person to find out if these are lies, to figure out if the marriage just needs a little counseling, to decide if the marriage is worthy of fidelity? HALF of the marriage is already telling the other person, nope this marriage sucks! Help me make the most of life!


If you've read enough of the stories here you'll remember that to the BS it's as if the WS actually killed the person they married and destroyed their family. So while it's a metaphorical death its impact can be as powerful as a real death. 

That's the description that comes up again and again when a WS comes here and fails to show remorse or tries to minimize what they did. 



> I can't answer for Personal, but I never said it wasn't wrong. If you know someone is married and still go on propositioning them, then you don't really value the sanctity of marriage. However, if you're MARRIED and STILL don't value the sanctity of marriage, that's a lot worse, wouldn't you say?


Your defense for doing something wrong is that someone else did something more wrong? It's not a subjective thing. Committing adultery is OBJECTIVELY wrong. 



> You don't really know the situation, but the OW was much younger and she never met my mom and just assumed my mom was some old frigid infertile hag and that my dad deserved much better. OW is definitely a piece of work but I wouldn't call her evil. She was the real naive one who thought my dad would eventually marry her.
> 
> If you read, I brought up open marriage because nobody else can know how deep your marriage is. How much do you respect your marriage? How faithful do you expect each other to be? What is cheating in your own marriage? Those are questions only the two people in the marriage can answer for themselves (and sometimes, if they don't communicate well, may even have different expectations! ie is sexcam cheating, etc).


In the absence of knowing, why would anyone assume? Knowing the potential for damage wouldn't you just avoid a relationship with a married person? I think naïveté and or immorality is the only reason for that behavior. You can't excuse immorality. Naïveté can come from poor education.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> I don't think any defence is required it was still adultery. Knowing or not, it is what it is.


Well... if you don't know you're engaging in adultery, then it really isn't. How many times has a guy defended himself by saying he didn't know she was married, and that was the truth?

I bet of everyone on this forum who has had casual sex and/or ONS's, many of them have unknowingly slept with someone who is in a relationship or even married. While ignorance is not often a defence, it also can be in certain situations. It's awfully tough to verify that the man or woman you're going home with is, indeed, completely single.

In your case, the two examples you gave, you didn't know the first one was married until later on (yet still made out with her, which is sketchy, but you didn't sleep with her or maintain a relationship, either. So, yes, adultery. Not the most heinous kind, but all the same), and the second was newly separated (and not divorced). You'll get two very different viewpoints on the whole 'separated' issue here on TAM. To me, separated is free to do what you want, and a divorce is pending. If a couple is honestly working on their marriage in order to fix whatever problems they have, then they're not truly separated, and therefore are not single or free to do what they want.

But like I said, many/most people have engaged in casual sex, ONS's, FWB's etc. in their lifetime. Some more than others. The odds that many of those people have slept with married or otherwise not-single people are probably scary-high. If they didn't know, then it's not really adultery (for them), IMO. You can't go around vetting every hook-up you have. You could also avoid going home with people you just met, too, and keep your casual sex to people you already know, or are in your circle of acquaintances.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

VermisciousKnid said:


> If you've read enough of the stories here you'll remember that to the BS it's as if the WS actually killed the person they married and destroyed their family. So while it's a metaphorical death its impact can be as powerful as a real death.
> 
> That's the description that comes up again and again when a WS comes here and fails to show remorse or tries to minimize what they did.


I agree completely.

This is exactly how I felt when my first marriage blew up. I'd experienced actual death prior to this, and I remember thinking, at one point, that the feelings were the same. Life just suddenly changes on a dime, and nothing is ever the same afterwards. At some point, life goes on, and/or gets better, but for that time being - same thing.

Even the stages one goes through are the same. It's an apt comparison.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Only if they're right.
> 
> In Maslow's terms, it's an externally applied morality. You do good because someone more powerful than you demands it. Internalizing your morality and doing good because you believe it to be good, regardless of any punishment, is true accountability.


So if I believe molesting a child is "good", I can internalize that and hold myself to be a good person even if I have destroyed that child's life, get arrested and go to prison for it?

How does true morality exist extant of societal laws and mores?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> So if I believe molesting a child is "good", I can internalize that and hold myself to be a good person even if I have destroyed that child's life, get arrested and go to prison for it?
> 
> How does true morality exist extant of societal laws and mores?


How much time do you have for a massive thread jack? 

The question has been around as long as the species. There's no good answer, and I'm of the opinion that there is no objective morality. That society sets it's rules as it sees fit has to be good enough, since that's all we have available to us. 

Society doesn't have to agree with your definition of moral, though you are better off and more likely to conform to it if you own it. Otherwise you'll just cast it aside the moment the eyes of the enforcer are turned away.

Personally, I like the Wiccan Creed - "An it harm no one, do as ye will".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Most of this thread has been a massive thread-jack....


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, you certainly did the right thing for yourself getting away from that woman! Personality disorder much?? What a b!tch.


I'd guess we all have personality disorders, if measured against just the right yardstick. I can't say I'm totally cool with how I've managed my life. Got the money stuff figured out, but have never felt I had a big enough social circle. 

Her parents both lived life in anger.

I read once that successful people instinctively know that the "lessons from childhood" are optional, and from their teens, start moving toward being who they think they'd rather be. She wasn't like that...once a habit took hold, it was a permanent part of her.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> This is exactly how I felt when my first marriage blew up. I'd experienced actual death prior to this, and I remember thinking, at one point, that the feelings were the same. Life just suddenly changes on a dime, and nothing is ever the same afterwards. At some point, life goes on, and/or gets better, but for that time being - same thing.
> 
> Even the stages one goes through are the same. It's an apt comparison.


In some ways it's worse then a death. For me it was like invasion of the body snatchers or something. Someone had come and in a month had replaced my First love. Who was this imposter? Now I know that the person I dated and fell in love with was the imposter. But damn if that wasn't a mind F--k. At least with death you get to keep the good memories, with cheating everything is tainted.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

sokillme said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > I agree completely.
> ...


I agree, it's completely worse than your spouse dying.

When your spouse dies, both families rally around you and help you, so do your friends. In cheating, people take sides, and you lose half your support team.

When your spouse dies, if it was a murder, you (usually) have closure when the murderer is convicted and imprisoned. You have someone or something (ie cancer) external to blame and be angry at. With cheating, you are conflicted because you are angry at the person you loved, or at yourself.

When your spouse dies, you get life insurance and survivor benefits, etc. When your spouse cheats, your income is halved and you are paying them support. Finances are suddenly a struggle instead of something you don't have to worry about while you grieve.

When your spouse dies, you grieve and move on. When your spouse cheats, you still have to deal with them if you have kids, and it's much harder to move on.

When your spouse dies, there's no blow to the ego. With cheating, you are left with no self-esteem, wondering what is so horrible and worthless about you that the person who vowed to protect you would hurt you this way. You lose all faith in your ability to judge people correctly and stop trust anybody.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

VermisciousKnid said:


> If you've read enough of the stories here you'll remember that to the BS it's as if the WS actually killed the person they married and destroyed their family. So while it's a metaphorical death its impact can be as powerful as a real death.
> 
> That's the description that comes up again and again when a WS comes here and fails to show remorse or tries to minimize what they did.


I think we are agreeing here, that the WS is doing the killing. I don't doubt the pain.




VermisciousKnid said:


> Your defense for doing something wrong is that someone else did something more wrong? It's not a subjective thing. Committing adultery is OBJECTIVELY wrong.


I'm not defending it, only alarmed at some responses that seemed to blame the OM/OW more than the actual cheater. People who knowingly get involved with married people are either ruthless, naive/dumb, a sociopath, low confidence, greedy, or some combination of unattractive character traits. Not a nice catch.

But people who cheat? Despite a loving marriage with a great person who they've made vows to love and cherish? All of the above and then some. It's just always so much easier to blame it on the OM/OW. Hard to admit the one we love is a POS.

(BTW not slamming R. Sometimes it works out. Just go in with open eyes.)


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## old red (Jul 26, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Good thing Christians are never guilty of adultery, or your point would be silly.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Justadude made reference to the golden rule, variations of which can be found in many cultures and religions - yet you chose to single out one religious group. So, is this an example of bigotry? Or ignorance?


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## old red (Jul 26, 2014)

Cletus said:


> How much time do you have for a massive thread jack?
> 
> The question has been around as long as the species. There's no good answer, and* I'm of the opinion that there is no objective morality.* That society sets it's rules as it sees fit has to be good enough, since that's all we have available to us.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk




Speaks volumes.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

(Just went thru the crap to reregister just to answer this question)

My story is available under Hoosier, but basically this. Marrried 30 years, payed off business, took new found time (less worry) to start working on marriage by googleing "My wife doesn't love me anymore" and being directed to TAM. Going good for few months (Early 2011) seeing some change, then nothing. From my readings on here I knew about the ILYBANILWY speech. I get said "speech". That night I check her cell phone, find texts, confront (you really should read my thread I think a good story, as I was on TAM the whole time, saved my life) and she packs to bags and WALKS the 5 blocks to my friend of 20 years home and moves in. Basically next day I text her and she replies "My lawyers name is #### his number is #####.
I'm devastated, cant sleep, loose 18 pounds in nine days (I weigh myself everyday, post swim workout), I talk to her a couple times, the third time I ask her to consider reconciliation, and she says no, I reevaluate. (three strikes you are out) With my friends here on TAM I realize A) In the hope of making it go fast, she has given me a list of what she wants, her monetary request is literally 10% of what she could get as a MINIMUM. B) Just because we would be divorced doesn't mean that we couldn't reconcile (I wanted to so badly) so I would not be "giving up" and I could save my business. So, I don't even retain an attorney (except to go over the agreement once it was completed, making only two minor changes) I agree to what she asks, and I am divorced in 82 days.

For all intent and purposes I did not work for the next 18 months, as I was unable to focus on anything more than a few minutes. Often I would stand up at noon, tell my staff I would be gone for the rest of the day and hit the pool. With the help of a great IC, and the support of my staff, I have made it. I am now 5 years post Divorce. She married the OM, lives in the country in a converted church. You want to talk to her, you call him and ask and he will hand his phone over to her so she can talk (she does not have a cell phone) she does not have a land line, and he rejected the idea of getting internet even after shown how skype worked when they visted my granddaughter in Florida (for the only time she saw her (GD) s was 4) and offered a free computer by my daughter! 
My youngest daughter was married this past May and she did not attend. I can go on and on, but you get the drift. Oh, and I have only saw her once, for 5 seconds since 2012.

For me, I go to LA to see my daughter once a year, fly her home to Indiana at least a couple of times. I fly to Florida every three months to see my granddaughter (now 5) generally stay a week, skype with her on her IPad frequently.(when she was 4 one day I came home to find 54 missed calls...lol) My youngest lives 100 miles away and I have dinner with her and her husband probably 5 times a year, and celebrate all major holidays with her and her husbands family, who I enjoy a lot. Ohther than than I go to Colorado every year for a week, and one Cub game somewhere with my dude (Last year San Fran). then I track down where the Subdudes are playing and go see them. I am finally working and enjoying being semi productive, my business was hurt but I am already making a lot improvement. I am the envy of every crowd when the subject of divorce comes up, because someone always knows my story, and have been told "You are so lucky!" thousands of times. 

When the divorce happened a buddy told me that some day I would be buying the OM a case of wine every year on D day as a thank you. I still get a sadness of the hurt my kids went thru (even tho they were all21 and above) loss of our family. But am truly happy and realize that it was the best thing to happen to me, as she was a negative, Bipolar mess, who would not help themselves. (my counselor told me that my divorce saved my life) I miss what I had some, but am EMBRASSING what I have. I laugh all the time, I have dated many wonderful women, currently am seeing the best of the bunch. I take responsibility for my own happiness and it works. Time, time is the answer to healing, time and a desire to improve. Just sayin......


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

old red said:


> Speaks volumes.


Perhaps, but about which one of us, I wonder. 

Don't be coy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

old red said:


> Justadude made reference to the golden rule, variations of which can be found in many cultures and religions - yet you chose to single out one religious group. So, is this an example of bigotry? Or ignorance?


I'm sure there's a world where _responding_ to "Sounds like a Narcissistic view of things, unfortunaeatly (sic) this is more and more common as we move to a more godless society and into post modern society" is considered to be the first instance of bigotry in the thread.

I just don't live in that world.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

@Cletus,

As long as a religion address the the reality of the human condition, of it's sorrow and joy it remains viable. The mythology is a shell. An attempt to provide enduring truths of humanity. I am somewhat familiar with the history of Christianity and it's many forms. There is nothing that modern secularism in it's many forms that has not been discussed in Christianity. To dismiss the the questions being address simply because of the mythological frame work is intellectually shallow and dishonest. 

Who said "produce what you can, consume only what you need", christ or marx? 

True theology lives in the gutter on the conner of central st and main st. It seeks to comfort our despairs and provide guidance. A rabbi once suggested the term Kosher could be interpreted to mean "the best way". The best way to enjoy life without harming ourself or others.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I divorced my xWW not because I no longer loved her, but because the trauma of discovery of her infidelity was simply too much for me to endure.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Personal said:


> What happened to a sense of proportion and some resilience?


We're all here and breathing, sir.

Some, though (and for one or more of any variety of reasons), are a bit closer to the trauma of infidelity than others.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vel said:


> You don't really know the situation...


Turns out I really don't need to.



vel said:


> ...but the OW was much younger and she never met my mom and just assumed my mom was some old frigid infertile hag and that my dad deserved much better. OW is definitely a piece of work but I wouldn't call her evil. She was the real naive one who thought my dad would eventually marry her.


OW's youth and naiveté (or, TBH, stupidity) aside, she was actively participating in behavior that she'd hoped would lead to the dissolution of your parents' marriage and, subsequently, the destruction of your family unit.

All the other noise notwithstanding, that's pretty evil.



vel said:


> If you read, I brought up open marriage because nobody else can know how deep your marriage is. How much do you respect your marriage? How faithful do you expect each other to be? What is cheating in your own marriage? Those are questions only the two people in the marriage can answer for themselves (and sometimes, if they don't communicate well, may even have different expectations! ie is sexcam cheating, etc).


Each and every couple has the right to determine for _themselves_ what does and doesn't constitute cheating within the scope of _their own marriage_.

Want an open or "opaque" (i.e. don't ask don't tell) marriage?

That's cool.

Want to swing or do the poly thing?

That's fine.

Have fun, but remember to use a condom. (Even w/ your own spouse... yay!).

But for someone to involve him or herself in _someone else's marriage_ and then attempt to use the parameters of his or her own non-traditional marriage as a defense?

That's unethical and indefensible.

Either way, all the open marriage talk makes for a pretty weak defense.

"Hey, I don't know anything about their marriage. All I wanted to do was --"

Yeah. That's right. You don't.

So stay the f*ck away from it.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Turns out I really don't need to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My dad is older, wiser, and also actively participating in behavior that he knew would hurt his own wife and kid. Is he evil? No. So why is she?




GusPolinski said:


> Turns out I really don't need to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's up to the married one to stay the f*ck away. At least the other party can use the excuse "Hey, I don't know anything about their marriage", but the one actually in the marriage? No excuses.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vel said:


> My dad is older, wiser, and also actively participating in behavior that he knew would hurt his own wife and kid. Is he evil? No. So why is she?


I didn't say she was evil. (Trashy, though? Absolutely.)

What she was _doing_, though, was pretty evil.

Just because one party is a POS doesn't mean than the other isn't an even bigger POS.



vel said:


> *It's up to the married one to stay the f*ck away.* At least the other party can use the excuse "Hey, I don't know anything about their marriage", but the one actually in the marriage? No excuses.


While I don't disagree agree w/ the bit in bold, that doesn't mean that OM/OW isn't a POS.

And the excuse doesn't fly either way.

Unless, of course, you've talked yourself into so many circles that you can no longer clearly see what was once nearly universally -- and objectively -- seen: that it's possible for both the WS and his or her AP to BOTH be POS's.

In fact it's more than possible -- it's more or less an absolute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> I didn't say she was evil. (Trashy, though? Absolutely.)
> 
> What she was _doing_, though, was pretty evil.
> 
> ...


Assuming AP is single:
WS broke vows, AP didn't.
WS hurt the person they loved, AP didn't.
WS hurt the children they loved, AP didn't.
WS decided their marriage doesn't need fidelity, AP didn't.

I have never said APs are noble, morally upright people. But they are not responsible for destroying the marriage, because it was never their responsibility in the first place.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vel said:


> Assuming AP is single:
> WS broke vows, AP didn't.
> WS hurt the person they loved, AP didn't.
> WS hurt the children they loved, AP didn't.
> ...


LOL...

Again, none of that means that they aren't POS's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

OK great, as long as we agree they aren't responsible for destroying the marriage, there's nothing to argue.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vel said:


> OK great, as long as we agree they aren't responsible for destroying the marriage, there's nothing to argue.


Only in that the OM/OW almost certainly never swore an explicit vow to observe and uphold the sanctity of his or her AP's marriage.

They're certainly complicit in contributing to the potential destruction of said marriage, though.

So, again, no _meaningful_ distinction, IMO.

Last I checked, "I was just the driver!" doesn't really fly in the courtroom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I take responsibility for my own happiness and it works. Time, time is the answer to healing, time and a desire to improve. Just sayin......


Wow incredible story, how could people change so badly like that??....but you got it right with your last statement.

If you ever want to feel better, and this works for me for whatever reason, think about how many people in this world don't get a chance to even know what happiness is, never mind seek it....they are busier looking for food n shelter or how to stay alive the next day. 
Take a look at an example for yourself, go Google maps over Haiti, just the capital and zoom in satelitte views and look around at the homes, streets and you can even tell what the river is used for...just look around and take that in all the way. For me all the sudden infidelity and my situation become very dim and not as difficult, and even a degree of thankfulness can be felt.
There are much more difficult things in life to endure than infidelity, they just aren't preview to us in our daily lives.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

vel said:


> I have never said APs are noble, morally upright people. But they are not responsible for destroying the marriage, because it was never their responsibility in the first place.


Responsible no, contributed yes, participated in yes. I kind of look at it like our American laws look at Murder when there is a armed robbery. Everyone is charged with murder not just the one who fired the gun. I got no problem with that. I also got to problem thinking the person who participated in cheating on someone and destroying their life as garbage.


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## old red (Jul 26, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I'm sure there's a world where _responding_ to "Sounds like a Narcissistic view of things, unfortunaeatly (sic) this is more and more common as we move to a more godless society and into post modern society" is considered to be the first instance of bigotry in the thread.
> 
> I just don't live in that world.


Weak deflection - so why single out just one faith? Are you being a bigot? A man of integrity would have modified his original post or apologized - guess you're not that type of guy.


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## old red (Jul 26, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps, but about which one of us, I wonder.
> 
> Don't be coy.



I bet that you blew out a raspberry, just as you finished typing that one - good for you. I'm out.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

The AP does have responsibility Vel. They had the choice to not get between a couple and be part of the deception.

If I'm single and a married woman wants me to bang her behind her husband's back, I have a moral boundary to say NO!


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## delta88 (Mar 9, 2015)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Wow incredible story, how could people change so badly like that??....but you got it right with your last statement.
> 
> If you ever want to feel better, and this works for me for whatever reason, think about how many people in this world don't get a chance to even know what happiness is, never mind seek it....they are busier looking for food n shelter or how to stay alive the next day.
> Take a look at an example for yourself, go Google maps over Haiti, just the capital and zoom in satelitte views and look around at the homes, streets and you can even tell what the river is used for...just look around and take that in all the way. For me all the sudden infidelity and my situation become very dim and not as difficult, and even a degree of thankfulness can be felt.
> There are much more difficult things in life to endure than infidelity, they just aren't preview to us in our daily lives.


This reminds me of people who say every day above ground is a good day. If you reread your post you are using others misfortune to make yours seem less significant. Kind of like betrayal at the deepest level is acceptable as long as you are still sucking air in your lungs and nothing can be farther from the truth. 

I was reading that this is a strandard approach to self mitigation with trauma. That one did not have it really that bad type of deal which is not facing reality and can prevent one from actually moving past the traumatic experience they are facing. Like you deserved the pain yet you were never an active participant in what really caused it.

In reality the children and families of these impoverished parts of the world are actually the happiest. They spent many hours a day with loved ones bonding and looking for food. Want proof just look at children from africa in pictures on national geographic. Their smiles are pure and dont care about video games. They also have much lower rates of mental health issues when contrasting developed countries.

Just a thought...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

It's one thing to speculate about whether or not an AP is responsible or has any obligation, yet entirely another until you actually find yourself in that position. (Please forgive the ensuing wall of text, but there's a point to this.)

I had a crush on my girlfriend for three years before we got together. When I first saw her (at work), she was happily married and pregnant with her second child (a son). I'm quite turned on by pregnant women, and she blew me away in the 3.5 seconds it took for us to walk past each other.

I didn't see her again until months later, after she had returned from maternity leave. And she looked phenomenal. I couldn't tell she had recently had a child. We never spoke, but I would subtly admire her from a distance whenever I got a chance.

Fast forward about another six months, and she was assigned to the desk right behind mine. I nearly had a heart attack.

She never wore a wedding ring, but I figured she was in a relationship based on recently having a child. To be safe, I never spoke to her. But I would catch bits and pieces of her life when she talked to her other cube neighbor, with whom she was good friends. I heard her mention "my husband" in passing one day, and that clinched it: I could never speak to her. Ever. I was far, far too attracted to her. She appealed to me on every single level. It was like she had this extremely powerful gravitational field, and it took every ounce of my strength to not get caught. She would smile and say hello when we passed each other, and I would smile and say "Howdy". Beyond that, I pretended as though she didn't exist.

But I was always acutely aware of her existence.

A few months later, her job rotation ended and she went back to two floors below mine. It got easier again when I only saw her periodically. But lo and behold, after another few months, she emailed me asking for help with a data pull. (I work in IT and do data analysis and business intelligence.) She said my name was written down as the point of contact when she took over a project from someone else. I was 100% professional, got her requirements, built her analyses, and got her the data she needed. This went on over quite a few months. We were cordial and professional, and I maintained that ultimate boundary the entire time. It took many, many months for even a small hint of a friendship to develop. I was fine with it being just a friendship and nothing more.

Then last summer I broke my femur in a four-wheeling accident, and I was out on FMLA leave for about two months. She has since told me that when she found out about it, she was disturbed and concerned by it far more than she would have been for anyone else. That's when she began to suspect she had feelings for me, albeit extremely repressed. I returned to work, and she visited me. We talked business, as she had a legitimate business question for me. But our friendship slowly began growing, and we eventually got to know each other better. After another few months, she again visited my cube for another business question and we developed a game plan to assist her. (She's got a high-profile position in her unit and is in charge of policy and administration.) We talked for two hours. As she was leaving my cube, I could tell she was hesitant about going, and was quite smiley.

That's when I began to suspect (hope?) that she felt the same way about me. It was exciting...and utterly terrifying.

We met with her supervisor to pitch our idea, and he loved it. As luck would have it, he remembered me from a demonstration I gave a couple years prior, and was impressed. We knocked it out of the park. And as I got up to leave so they could finish their one-on-one, she gave me a look that said, "I want you."

Later that day, she messaged me telling me she has a huge crush on me and wonders if I reciprocate.

I said, "I've had a crush on you since you sat behind me two years ago. It's most definitely reciprocated." She said she had no idea, and that I never acted like it. I said, "Of course not. You're married." And I told her my story. The story of my xWW having an affair with a co-worker, and how it tore apart our family, and how I would never become "that guy."

She liked me even more for that. Because even though I was incredibly attracted to her, I always respected her married state and her family. She has two children. And I refused to do to her H what was done to me. The last thing I ever wanted to do was get in the way of her family.

She said her marriage was "strong, committed, more-or-less healthy", but as time went on she revealed the cracks in it. On one hand, she valued her family and respected her (now X) H. On the other, she was unhappy with many of his issues. I could have taken advantage of that. But instead, I said "Here's the name and phone number of my old therapist. He was instrumental in helping me. I believe he can help you too."

She asked if I would be okay with working together for the next 30+ years without ever acting on our feelings. I said, "Yes. While I can't help the way I feel about you, I won't cross a line. You're married, and I will always respect that. I don't expect anything from you beyond friendship. And I have plans for myself, and for my life. I'll press forward like I always do." And I kept my word and treated her like a friend with no expectations of anything. She shared more about her H's issues, how he had refused counseling for his anger issues, and how his own FOO issues were causing damage to their son. I encouraged her to seek out the therapist I told her about to help.

So she went to see him. She never once mentioned me, she focused entirely on the issues within her marriage. And he made her admit that she is unhappy, that she can't fix her (now x) H, and that she has the right to find her own happiness. So she sat him down, had "The Talk" with him, and told him their marriage was over. And that she would treat him amicably and fairly regarding their children. She was not wishy-washy about it and gave him no illusions that there was a chance. Their marriage was 100% over. Done. Finito. And that she wanted to move on with her life.

We never once touched each other until after she had The Talk with him. When we finally got together for the first time... It was incredible. I was able to do it with a clear conscience. And so was she. She even told him she was seeing someone after that, because she felt he deserved to know and that she didn't want him to think she was keeping anything from him. Her xH has always known about me. I've never been a secret.

She makes far, far more money than him. He only pays $200/month in child support for two kids, and their day care bill is almost $1000/month. So she gave him an amazing deal. He has the kids 50% of the time. She paid him $2000 to get his new life started on the right foot. She let him take whatever furniture he wanted. She treated him with respect and dignity. It was the literal exact opposite of how my divorce went, and I was beyond impressed with her. They get along and co-parent quite amicably. And she's still going to IC.

We've been together almost a year now, and it's absolutely the best relationship I could have ever hoped for. And you know what she told me? "If you had behaved any differently, there's no way we would be together today." I believe it.

I don't think we ever would have had an affair. That was a line that she didn't want to cross either. But I could have tried. I was single. It wasn't my marriage, after all.

I literally took every possible step I could have taken to keep her at arm's length. I even flat out told her that my life would be just fine if we never got together after we admitted our feelings. There was nothing more I could have done. But what would it say about me if I *had* tried to get her to have an affair with me?

I think the term "POS" would apply.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Only if they're right.
> 
> In Maslow's terms, it's an externally applied morality. You do good because someone more powerful than you demands it. Internalizing your morality and doing good because you believe it to be good, regardless of any punishment, is true accountability.


More foggy thinking. 

"internalizing YOUR morality" and "doing good because YOU believe it to be good" could justify anything. 

Meaningless arbitrary subjective morality isn't morality. Such is nothing more than a feeling or personal opinion. 

Further, Christians don't "do good" to avoid punishment or because it's demanded of us ~ we do it to serve Him.

I'm also not Catholic so "good deeds" aren't required at all ~ just belief ~ but faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26) so when I "do good" it would be through the fruit of the spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23)


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

vel said:


> Assuming AP is single:
> WS broke vows, AP didn't.
> WS hurt the person they loved, AP didn't.
> WS hurt the children they loved, AP didn't.
> ...



Marriage is a social construct.

Part of the reason our society is degrading is due to the destruction and devaluation of the institution of marriage.

Marriage is a community good and allowing oneself willingly or negligently to negatively involve themselves in another person's marriage is a failure of responsibility to the community.

Don't want to live by community standards of conduct ~ move to an island.

Until then ~~ OW/OM's remain culpable cheaters, adulterers and POS's just as responsible for their own hurtful and destructive choices as their married partner. 


I'm new here ~ are you dating a married man now? I've just never seen a betrayed spouse defend cheaters as "not responsible".


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> It's one thing to speculate about whether or not an AP is responsible or has any obligation, yet entirely another until you actually find yourself in that position. (Please forgive the ensuing wall of text, but there's a point to this.)
> 
> I had a crush on my girlfriend for three years before we got together. When I first saw her (at work), she was happily married and pregnant with her second child (a son). I'm quite turned on by pregnant women, and she blew me away in the 3.5 seconds it took for us to walk past each other.
> 
> ...


Yeah.

Sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

musicftw07 said:


> I don't think we ever would have had an affair. That was a line that she didn't want to cross either. But I could have tried. I was single. It wasn't my marriage, after all.
> 
> I literally took every possible step I could have taken to keep her at arm's length. I even flat out told her that my life would be just fine if we never got together after we admitted our feelings. There was nothing more I could have done. But what would it say about me if I *had* tried to get her to have an affair with me?
> 
> I think the term "POS" would apply.


You had an emotional affair. She was divulging her personal marriage issues to you after the two of you admitted to having feelings for each other. Maybe she would not have been having issues in the marriage if she didnt see you as a viable option to her husband. You should have cut contact. I dont begrudge your happiness, but you seem to think you did nothing wrong here.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> You had an emotional affair. She was divulging her personal marriage issues to you after the two of you admitted to having feelings for each other. Maybe she would not have been having issues in the marriage if she didnt see you as a viable option to her husband. You should have cut contact. I dont begrudge your happiness, but you seem to think you did nothing wrong here.


Additionally, the only reason that there was no PA was because _he_ put the brakes on it.

Not exactly the type of gal that most guys would _knowingly_ marry.

But hey, I guess enjoy the marriage while it lasts.

Might wanna do whatever you can to keep that "new and shiny" smell for as long as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> You had an emotional affair. She was divulging her personal marriage issues to you after the two of you admitted to having feelings for each other. *Maybe she would not have been having issues in the marriage if she didnt see you as a viable option to her husband.* You should have cut contact. I dont begrudge your happiness, but you seem to think you did nothing wrong here.


1) You glossed over the fact that I encouraged her to go to counseling. If her therapist had provided a way for her to salvage her marriage, I would have supported it 100%. And I told her that. But that's not the conclusion they came to in a professional
2) The bolded is pure speculation. There were most certainly issues. Issues that I've seen directly when interacting with her son as a result of his father's anger issues that get directed at him.
3) Were we in an emotional affair? Maybe. But I had no intention of waiting around for her situation to change. If a different awesome, available woman had crossed my path, I would have pursued it. No, I don't see I did anything wrong here. A person has no control over the way they feel, but they certainly have control over what they do about it. I never saw her alone, I never touched her, I never tried to persuade her to leave her XH, and I most certainly didn't rush in to fix all her problems like some misguided white knight. After we admitted our feelings, she asked me "What happens now?" I said, "I can't say. That's not my decision, and it never was." I never presented myself as another option. And I made my personal experience with infidelity known to her right from the get-go.

The point of that post was to illustrate that I disagree with the notion that I wouldn't have been culpable if I had slept with her while still married with no intentions of her divorcing. I kept that boundary firmly in place until divorce had been filed. Isn't that what TAM espouses? I've certainly seen that said many, many times here.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Additionally, the only reason that there was no PA was because _he_ put the brakes on it.


False. She flat out told me that she wouldn't have an affair with me before I told her about my xWW's infidelity. What she was concerned with was that we could be professional in the workplace and keep that boundary in place out of respect for her H and children. All I did was reaffirm my desire for that boundary.



GusPolinski said:


> Not exactly the type of gal that most guys would _knowingly_ marry.
> 
> But hey, I guess enjoy the marriage while it lasts.


We're not married, with no plans on it anytime soon. We aren't even living together. And again, with no plans to anytime soon.



GusPolinski said:


> Might wanna do whatever you can to keep that "new and shiny" smell for as long as possible.


Might wanna do whatever you can to actually read and comprehend what I wrote, which is that we both kept that boundary in place until she had filed for divorce through consultation with a professional counselor. (Who, incidentally, also helped me to overcome my xWW's cheating and give me a fresh start in life during and after my divorce.)

It's so bitter around here I'm tasting arugula.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> I'm quite turned on by pregnant women, and she blew me away in the 3.5 seconds it took for us to walk past each other.


Gross. Lusting after a married pregnant woman. I hope "turned on" was just a poor choice of words.




musicftw07 said:


> I said, "I've had a crush on you since you sat behind me two years ago. It's most definitely reciprocated." She said she had no idea, and that I never acted like it. I said, "Of course not. You're married." And I told her my story. The story of my xWW having an affair with a co-worker, and how it tore apart our family, and how I would never become "that guy."


Should have answered "no" ~ because it lead to being "that guy".




> I don't think we ever would have had an affair. That was a line that she didn't want to cross either.


I've helped hundreds of marriage recover AFTER the divorce was filed. Dating a still married woman even after she's filed and "had the talk" doesn't make it OK or "NOT" an affair. It's still adultery and you should have known better ~ especially as a supposed former betrayed husband.



music said:


> But I could have tried. I was single. It wasn't my marriage, after all.


So have you apologized to your ex-wayward wife's OM? Your marriage wasn't his marriage so you holding him in contempt as "that guy" was mean and judgemental, right? It wasn't his marriage. He isn't culpable to you at all.

As I said a couple posts ago, marriage is a community construct. You allowed yourself to be and become and instrument of interference in someone else's marriage and her ex-husband and children are the victims of your choices. It's pretty distasteful for you to be hanging around your victims playing future step-dad while they are completely unaware of your behavior.




music said:


> I think the term "POS" would apply.


 You said it, not me.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> False. She flat out told me that she wouldn't have an affair with me before I told her about my xWW's infidelity. What she was concerned with was that we could be professional in the workplace and keep that boundary in place out of respect for her H and children. All I did was reaffirm my desire for that boundary.


LOL. That was a boundary check, sir. If you'd responded differently than you did, it would've been on.



musicftw07 said:


> We're not married, with no plans on it anytime soon. We aren't even living together. And again, with no plans to anytime soon.


Yay for small miracles.



musicftw07 said:


> Might wanna do whatever you can to actually read and comprehend what I wrote, which is that we both kept that boundary in place until she had filed for divorce through consultation with a professional counselor. (Who, incidentally, also helped me to overcome my xWW's cheating and give me a fresh start in life during and after my divorce.)
> 
> It's so bitter around here I'm tasting arugula.


LOL. Most of us have no trouble comprehending what we read... it's just that, quite often, there's no point in doing anything more than skimming and scanning.

And, since I'm not exactly dying to scroll back up and re-read anything, please feel free to answer this -- 

Did she reveal her semi-relationship w/ you to her husband and/or counselor before or during counseling? Or at least before she filed for divorce?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> The point of that post was to illustrate that I disagree with the notion that I wouldn't have been culpable if I had slept with her while still married with no intentions of her divorcing. I kept that boundary firmly in place until divorce had been filed. Isn't that what TAM espouses? I've certainly seen that said many, many times here.


TAM is a collection of personal opinions. It doesn't, by itself, "espouse" anything.

Basing your boundaries upon on a collection of opinions on any given day or threads on a marriage discussion forum is pretty ridiculous. 

Besides, you've been with your affair partner for over a year now but just registered here 6 months or so ago, so it sounds like you're selectively reading to rationalize and justify your past behavior rather than actually reporting a boundary you applied.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Quality said:


> Should have answered "no" ~ because it lead to being "that guy".


This is the first time I've ever been told that lying is preferable to the truth.



Quality said:


> I've helped hundreds of marriage recover AFTER the divorce was filed. *Dating a still married woman even after she's filed and "had the talk" doesn't make it OK or "NOT" an affair.* It's still adultery and you should have known better ~ especially as a supposed former betrayed husband.


That is in direct contradiction to what many, many people on this site have said.

When my xWW left and divorce had been filed, I started hooking up with a lady I knew from my past. I coined it a revenge affair. Numerous people told me "Divorce had been filed, so that doesn't make it an RA. There was no hope for your marriage and you were both going your separate ways. What you did was completely legit."

I'm sensing a double standard here.



> So have you apologized to your ex-wayward wife's OM? Your marriage wasn't his marriage so you holding him in contempt as "that guy" was mean and judgemental, right? It wasn't his marriage. He isn't culpable to you at all.


What would I have to apologize for? For him having anger management and FOO issues that pushed his xW away? For not speaking to his xW for literally two years while their marriage spiraled down the drain? Yeah. I have much to apologize for. 

The rest of this post makes no sense.



> As I said a couple posts ago, *marriage is a community construct.* You allowed yourself to be and become and instrument of interference in someone else's marriage and her ex-husband and children are the victims of your choices. It's pretty distasteful for you to be hanging around your victims playing future step-dad while they are completely unaware of your behavior.


1) Marriage is a contract between two people, not a community. That contract can be terminated at any time, for whatever reason.
2) I allowed nothing. Her xH has issues, and she wanted out. We kept that boundary in place until legal proceedings to terminate that contract had begun.
3) Her children know her mom and I are together, as does my daughter. Her kids love me. And this should go without saying, but her kids also love their father, in spite of his issues. I never talk badly of him, and I've said their dad is a good man directly to their faces.
4) Her xH is happier they're divorced. He finally started going to counseling for his issues. He's stepping up as a dad. He's taking control of his life. He's co-parenting well with my gf. She even thinks that he might be seeing someone, and she's _happy for him._


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> You glossed over the fact that I encouraged her to go to counseling. If her therapist had provided a way for her to salvage her marriage, I would have supported it 100%. And I told her that. But that's not the conclusion they came to in a professional


But only after indicating that you were happy being in the on deck position.



musicftw07 said:


> Were we in an emotional affair? Maybe.


Most would say yes.



musicftw07 said:


> I never presented myself as another option.


Uhhh... I'd ask you to go back and read what you've written, because it sounds like that's exactly what you did.



musicftw07 said:


> The point of that post was to illustrate that I disagree with the notion that I wouldn't have been culpable if I had slept with her while still married with no intentions of her divorcing. I kept that boundary firmly in place until divorce had been filed. Isn't that what TAM espouses? I've certainly seen that said many, many times here.


Yes, but there are more to affairs than just the physical aspect, and a lack thereof within a given relationship doesn't necessarily preclude it from being seen as an affair.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> It's so bitter around here I'm tasting arugula.


This charge gets leveled a lot here, and that's fine. It's even understandable.

Here's my take, though -- we're not necessarily bitter, we're just aware.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> Marriage is a contract between two people, not a community. That contract can be terminated at any time, for whatever reason.


It's a contract between two people, but said contract IS recognized by the community; therefore, it's a community construct. @Quality is dead on there.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. That was a boundary check, sir. If you'd responded differently than you did, it would've been on.


Nope. If I had responded differently, she would have been completely disgusted.



GusPolinski said:


> LOL. Most of us have no trouble comprehending what we read... *it's just that, quite often, there's no point in doing anything more than skimming and scanning.*


The problem with that is you miss important context.



GusPolinski said:


> Did she reveal her semi-relationship w/ you to her husband and/or counselor before or during counseling? Or at least before she filed for divorce?


Obviously, she couldn't reveal our "semi-relationship" to her counselor before counseling. And yes, her counselor does know.

No, she didn't tell her husband about me until after she started counseling. It was her counselor who guided her to the conclusion that she wanted the marriage to end. I'm not the cause of the death of their marriage; they both contributed to that quite expertly all on their own long before she ever knew me. He was verbally abusive, passive aggressive, and would shut down emotionally. She would plaster a smile on her face, repress any and all bad feelings, make excuses for his behavior without confronting him about them in a healthy way, and make sacrifices in the hope that she could make him happy. Naturally, things only got worse. Thanks to counseling, she is frank and honest with how her actions contributed to that dynamic. And more importantly, why that dynamic needed to end.

But once her and her counselor came to the conclusion the marriage needed to end, yes, she told him. In fact, he called her mother after and accused her of having "cyclical man syndrome". I laughed and said he needs to meet my xWW, who in the five years we've been split has already remarried, divorced again, and lived with two other guys.

I don't seek approval from internet strangers. We both worked very hard to do what we thought was right and fair for everyone. If anyone here disagrees, that's perfectly fine.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> This charge gets leveled a lot here, and that's fine. It's even understandable.
> 
> Here's my take, though -- we're not necessarily bitter, we're just aware.


Or as the kids say "woke".

I'm 20 years recovered. Hardly bitter. 

What he's really reading is more like righteous anger and loving judgment based upon discernment.

If he is a Christian, he needs to seek the counsel of his pastor. Expressing our judgment is loving in that he can't reach repentance if he fails to see anything wrong with his behavior.

He needs to end his disgusting affair and leave that family alone.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> Nope. If I had responded differently, she would have been completely disgusted.


"I want you" doesn't exactly sound like disgust to me.



musicftw07 said:


> The problem with that is you miss important context.


One man's context is another man's noise.



musicftw07 said:


> Obviously, she couldn't reveal our "semi-relationship" to her counselor before counseling. And yes, her counselor does know.


She _could_ have, but I suppose that doing it during the initial session is just as good.



musicftw07 said:


> No, she didn't tell her husband about me until after she started counseling. It was her counselor who guided her to the conclusion that she wanted the marriage to end. I'm not the cause of the death of their marriage; they both contributed to that quite expertly all on their own long before she ever knew me. He was verbally abusive, passive aggressive, and would shut down emotionally. She would plaster a smile on her face, repress any and all bad feelings, make excuses for his behavior without confronting him about them in a healthy way, and make sacrifices in the hope that she could make him happy. Naturally, things only got worse. Thanks to counseling, she is frank and honest with how her actions contributed to that dynamic. And more importantly, why that dynamic needed to end.


And yet she hadn't come to this conclusion prior to engaging you.



musicftw07 said:


> But once her and her counselor came to the conclusion the marriage needed to end, yes, she told him.


Then she wasn't dealing w/ him on even terms.



musicftw07 said:


> In fact, he called her mother after and accused her of having "cyclical man syndrome". I laughed and said he needs to meet my xWW, who in the five years we've been split has already remarried, divorced again, and lived with two other guys.


I guess time will tell.

Like I said, do your best to hold onto that "new and shiny" smell.



musicftw07 said:


> *I don't seek approval from internet strangers.* We both worked very hard to do what we thought was right and fair for everyone. If anyone here disagrees, that's perfectly fine.


With respect to the bit in bold, an objective observer might posit that the several replies that you've posted to this thread in response to your post earlier this evening implies otherwise.

Either way, I'm fine w/ disagreeing as well.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> But only after indicating that you were happy being in the on deck position.


False. Again, re-read what I posted.



musicftw07 said:


> She asked if I would be okay with working together for the next 30+ years without ever acting on our feelings. I said, "Yes. While I can't help the way I feel about you, I won't cross a line. You're married, and I will always respect that. I don't expect anything from you beyond friendship. And I have plans for myself, and for my life. I'll press forward like I always do."


I flat out told her I'd be fine with never acting on our feelings, and that my life would go on. That is the exact opposite of "indicating I'm happy being in the on deck position".

This is where scanning and skimming fails you.



GusPolinski said:


> Most would say yes.


Fair enough.



GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... I'd ask you to go back and read what you've written, because it sounds like that's exactly what you did.


Again, I refer you to my following post.



musicftw07 said:


> She asked if I would be okay with working together for the next 30+ years without ever acting on our feelings. I said, "Yes. While I can't help the way I feel about you, I won't cross a line. You're married, and I will always respect that. I don't expect anything from you beyond friendship. And I have plans for myself, and for my life. I'll press forward like I always do."





GusPolinski said:


> Yes, but there are more to affairs than just the physical aspect, and a lack thereof within a given relationship doesn't necessarily preclude it from being seen as an affair.


Okay, I'll grant you this. I never said we were perfect. But I am grateful that we both took every reasonable step before we got there. She started and is still in IC; she was open and honest with her xH; she was fair to him with their divorce; she reinforces that he's their children's father and that it will never change; and we are both careful and tentative when it comes to our children.



GusPolinski said:


> This charge gets leveled a lot here, and that's fine. It's even understandable.
> 
> Here's my take, though -- we're not necessarily bitter, we're just aware.


From my perspective, that post was incredibly bitter. Snap judgments were made about my post after only "skimming and scanning" it. 

People can be bitter if that's what they want. It's their state of mind, not mine. But one would hope they would at least have the intellectual honesty to own their bitterness, or at least be aware of it.



GusPolinski said:


> It's a contract between two people, but said contract IS recognized by the community; therefore, it's a community construct. @Quality is dead on there.


It's a community construct. It is not a contract *with* the community. Otherwise, I would have a say in the marriage contract of others.

Which I don't.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> But only after indicating that you were happy being in the on deck position.
> 
> ...
> 
> Yes, but there are more to affairs than just the physical aspect, and a lack thereof within a given relationship doesn't necessarily preclude it from being seen as an affair.


I have to agree here. It is inappropriate to tell a married person you are attracted to them, just as it's inappropriate for a married person to tell someone other than their spouse that they are attracted to them.

If, WITHOUT telling you anything, she determined that her attraction to you meant she needed to seriously examine her marriage, seek counselling, and ultimately end the marriage, with all legal matters completed, BEFORE approaching you to learn your feelings, that is not cheating.

She didn't end her marriage until she was confident you were on standby. Had she never met you, or at least had you never both confided attraction to each other and remained strictly coworkers, her marriage very likely would have continued. Therefore, you contributed to the break up of her marriage.

People who set up their rebound relationship prior to ending the one they are in are still cheaters. The people who help them do that are therefore affair partners.

That said, yes, you are still head and shoulders a better person than a traditional cheater or affair partner. But don't be ****y about it. Be willing to examine your actions. Do some research about emotional affairs.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

/sigh

You're not getting it.

Whether that's intentional or not I can't say.

I'm convinced that my observations are on point. You're not.

And that's fine, because you're in the trenches. You're not exactly objective.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> This is the first time I've ever been told that lying is preferable to the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you are a serial cheater.

Not a double standard. I've never excused or legitimized revenge affairs. 





> What would I have to apologize for? For him having anger management and FOO issues that pushed his xW away? For not speaking to his xW for literally two years while their marriage spiraled down the drain? Yeah. I have much to apologize for.


I was talking about the guy that messed around with your ex-wife. I presumed you didn't like him messing around in your former marriage much but since it wasn't his marriage (your standard) I figured you probably owed him an apology for being so harsh and judgmental about him.





> 1) Marriage is a contract between two people, not a community. That contract can be terminated at any time, for whatever reason.


Makes the institution of marriage sound so trite. Like it's just a simple piece of paper one can simply void with the stroke of a pen in a moments notice. 

In many many marriages the officiant actually addresses the audience/congregation, saying

Celebrant: "Will all of you witnessing these promises do all in your power to uphold these two persons in their marriage?"

People: We will.

On the day of my wedding it was actually elaborated on a bit more our pastor said something like, "As they make these vows to each other, it is important to also recognize the important role that loved ones hold in a marriage. Each of you here today have been invited because you are important and loved by the bride and groom, and together make up their community"




> 2) I allowed nothing. Her xH has issues, and she wanted out. We kept that boundary in place until legal proceedings to terminate that contract had begun.


How many days after she filed did it take for you two to fornicate?



> 3) Her children know her mom and I are together, as does my daughter. Her kids love me. And this should go without saying, but her kids also love their father, in spite of his issues. I never talk badly of him, and I've said their dad is a good man directly to their faces.


Gross that her kids love you considering your involvement in the destruction of their family. He is a better man than you. Not a lot of room in hierarchy of men under the OM.



> 4) Her xH is happier they're divorced. He finally started going to counseling for his issues. He's stepping up as a dad. He's taking control of his life. He's co-parenting well with my gf. She even thinks that he might be seeing someone, and she's _happy for him._


Oh, he probably is better off without his unrepentant wayward wife and wherever she goes, there she will be. You'd be better off without her too, you'll see. Everyone may seem happy enough with the situation now, but happiness isn't the difference between right and wrong and, sadly, the consequences of your immoral choices are inescapable.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> "I want you" doesn't exactly sound like disgust to me.


Fantasy =/= reality.

Yes, she was attracted to me. If I had indicated that I'd be fine with having sex with her while still being with her xH, that would have changed in a New York minute. As it damn well should have.



GusPolinski said:


> One man's context is another man's noise.


This isn't an excuse for coming to a false conclusion based on skimming.



GusPolinski said:


> She _could_ have, but I suppose that doing it during the initial session is just as good.


Unless she has a TARDIS, I don't see how it's physically possible she could have told her counselor every intimate detail prior to meeting with him for the first time. It's been many months later, and details are _still_ being discovered.

You've been here a while. I would imagine you know how counseling works?



GusPolinski said:


> And yet she hadn't come to this conclusion prior to engaging you.


False. She was acutely aware of the many issues in her marriage. The denial was that divorce was the appropriate option.



GusPolinski said:


> Then she wasn't dealing w/ him on even terms.


That's because you are still operating under the false assumption that something was going to happen between the two of us while she was still holding on to the idea of her marriage working out. 
You and I are free to disagree on this. 



GusPolinski said:


> I guess time will tell.
> 
> Like I said, do your best to hold onto that "new and shiny" smell.


There's the arugula again.



GusPolinski said:


> With respect to the bit in bold, an objective observer might posit that the several replies that you've posted to this thread in response to your post earlier this evening implies otherwise.
> 
> Either way, I'm fine w/ disagreeing as well.


I will always do my best to communicate my intentions and meanings to others, even if they come to incorrect conclusions. If, after that, their conclusions are still incorrect, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Plus my daughter is in bed and I'm killing time until I finally decide to crash. TAM is nothing if not entertaining. (On a related note, there should be a popcorn-eating emoji.)


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Bitter? I'm laughing and smiling, mostly at how totally you've got yourself snowed.

Hell, I'm so amused by it that I can't bring myself to give your last couple of replies the line-by-line treatment that they truly deserve.

ETA: I normally use GIFs...


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> No, she didn't tell her husband about me until after she started counseling. It was her counselor who guided her to the conclusion that she wanted the marriage to end.


Terrible counselor if it's true but she probably lied to you and the counselor. Wayward spouses tend to hear what they want to hear and fill in the rest with lies. 



> I'm not the cause of the death of their marriage; they both contributed to that quite expertly all on their own long before she ever knew me. He was verbally abusive, passive aggressive, and would shut down emotionally. She would plaster a smile on her face, repress any and all bad feelings, make excuses for his behavior without confronting him about them in a healthy way, and make sacrifices in the hope that she could make him happy. Naturally, things only got worse.


ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS




> Thanks to counseling, she is frank and honest with how her actions contributed to that dynamic. And more importantly, why that dynamic needed to end.


Good, then she should clean up her side of the street, apologize, end her affair, repent and beg her husband to take her back. 




> But once her and her counselor came to the conclusion the marriage needed to end, yes, she told him. In fact, he called her mother after and accused her of having "cyclical man syndrome". I laughed and said he needs to meet my xWW, who in the five years we've been split has already remarried, divorced again, and lived with two other guys.


Why would you be laughing at that unless you were way too involved already with this woman. How cruel of you to ridicule his attempts to explain and understand his wife's wayward behavior and abandonment ~~ behavior YOU contributed to.




> I don't seek approval from internet strangers. We both worked very hard to do what we thought was right and fair for everyone. If anyone here disagrees, that's perfectly fine.


Don't try. Learn and do better. You can right this wrong by extricating yourself from this situation. Don't double down on wrong and marry this woman.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I have to agree here. It is inappropriate to tell a married person you are attracted to them, just as it's inappropriate for a married person to tell someone other than their spouse that they are attracted to them.


To be fair, I agree with you. It certainly wasn't ideal. 



Hopeful Cynic said:


> If, WITHOUT telling you anything, she determined that her attraction to you meant she needed to seriously examine her marriage, seek counselling, and ultimately end the marriage, with all legal matters completed, BEFORE approaching you to learn your feelings, that is not cheating.


I'm not quite sure I agree with this. There's a lot of hair-splitting going on. I've read numerous threads where people say "As long as divorce is filed, you're good." I personally agree with that, based on my prior experiences. My divorce from my xWW wasn't final when I started hooking up with a woman a few years ago, and everyone I talked to (both online and offline) gave me the green light.

I don't see why a double standard would apply here.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> She didn't end her marriage until she was confident you were on standby. Had she never met you, or at least had you never both confided attraction to each other and remained strictly coworkers, *her marriage very likely would have continued.* Therefore, you contributed to the break up of her marriage.


Again, I made it plainly clear I wasn't on standby. Please read my prior posts.

But I respectfully want to address the bolded. This is what she said to me: "I would have stayed until the kids were out of the house, and then divorced him."

I've never seen anyone recommend that course of action, which numerous studies and therapists have concluded does far, far more damage to both the children and the married couple in the long run. She is also obviously aware of this.

In that respect, did I contribute to the termination of the marriage contract? Sure. Was I the source of all the problems in an otherwise perfect, healthy, salvageable marriage?

Not even close. That would be like implying the woman I hooked up with after my xWW filed for divorce was the cause of my marriage ending. Which would be categorically false.

If I'm to be excoriated for being the catalyst that caused her to decide to end her ****ty marriage more than a decade earlier than she originally planned, then I'll own that scarlet letter.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> People who set up their rebound relationship prior to ending the one they are in are still cheaters. The people who help them do that are therefore affair partners.


Sigh.

Again, prior posts, et cetera, et cetera.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> That said, yes, you are still head and shoulders a better person than a traditional cheater or affair partner. But don't be ****y about it. Be willing to examine your actions. Do some research about emotional affairs.


I'm not trying to be $h!tty or c0cky. The current topic on this thread was about Personal's decision to be an AP and that he isn't responsible for any fallout that may happen in the MW's marriage. I disagreed, and shared a personal experience that directly ties into that topic.

I'm aware of emotional affairs. That's why I said I granted Gus his point about emotional entanglement being a factor, and that I never claimed I was perfect. With that being said, I'm also not beating myself up over the feelings I had, or us maintaining the physical boundary until the appropriate time. I choose to look at the glass as half-full. Sure, we could have fornicated regularly on the DL without her xH ever knowing I exist. But that's not the path we chose. Regardless of any mistakes we may have made along the way, I'm grateful for that.

But as to both of our actions, my gf and I have talked about it _at length_. How her marriage could have devolved to that point; the steps that she had taken in the past to try to salvage the marriage; how *both* her and her exH contributed to the demise of their marriage; how her family would react; how her children would react; my past experiences with infidelity; the list goes on. I've even suggested that we go to couple's counseling together when she's done with IC just to be sure we know what we're doing, and she readily agreed.

You may not see it as being ideal, but I see it as being light-years ahead of what my xWW did. She had no problem treating me like crap, screwing another guy behind my back, milking me for every dollar I had, and keeping my daughter away from me simply because she could. On the flip side, my gf treated her xH with respect and dignity, was open and honest with him about everything, was completely fair and amicable during their divorce, and legally separated from him before we ever got together.

If a person is going to divorce their spouse and move on with their life, that's a pretty damned good way of doing it. Especially if you've already experienced the worst that a person can do.

And with that, I'm off to bed.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> From my perspective, that post was incredibly bitter. Snap judgments were made about my post after only "skimming and scanning" it.
> 
> People can be bitter if that's what they want. It's their state of mind, not mine. But one would hope they would at least have the intellectual honesty to own their bitterness, or at least be aware of it.


I confront you with the truth only hoping there is a modicum of decency buried in your conscience somewhere that can spark the gift of repentance. Have you no shame? You are no friend to this family. Your presence in the company of her children will always and forever remain abusive. 





> It's a community construct. It is not a contract *with* the community. Otherwise, I would have a say in the marriage contract of others.


Yet you took it upon yourself to share your marital story and listen to hers {and recommend a therapist to her}. You continued to listen and laugh at her husband as he tried to make sense of his marriage ending. I'd say you had {and have} a highly inappropriate "say" about her husband and their marriage.

I also don't agree with this statement as I regularly involve myself and interject in the "marital contract" of others. I've exposed adulterers to their spouses. I've exposed adulterers to their families, bosses and church leaders. I've exposed swingers and other fornicators too. Publicly and lovingly holding people accountable for their sinful behavior is often the first step towards repentance. I know that concept probably sounds ridiculous to you but amazingly, I've been thanked and embraced far more often than not for doing so. 

As an employer, you and her would have been fired too. Though I try to maintain leverage by allowing one of the cheaters to stay and requiring them to have no contact with their paramour as my lawyer likes to refer to them as.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Quality said:


> Good, then she should clean up her side of the street, apologize, end her affair, repent and beg her husband to take her back.


Dude, you've got far too much emotion invested in this.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> But I respectfully want to address the bolded. This is what she said to me: "I would have stayed until the kids were out of the house, and then divorced him."
> 
> I've never seen anyone recommend that course of action, which numerous studies and therapists have concluded does far, far more damage to both the children and the married couple in the long run. She is also obviously aware of this.


Staying for the kids is far lss painful, shameful and destructive than divorce due to having an affair with random co-worker IT dork.





> But as to both of our actions, my gf and I have talked about it _at length_. How her marriage could have devolved to that point; the steps that she had taken in the past to try to salvage the marriage; how *both* her and her exH contributed to the demise of their marriage; how her family would react; how her children would react; my past experiences with infidelity; the list goes on. I've even suggested that we go to couple's counseling together when she's done with IC just to be sure we know what we're doing, and she readily agreed.


This is describing a shameful illicit affair. How her family, kids would react to a divorce should have been none of your business and going to counseling with her would just be trying to polish a turd. 






> You may not see it as being ideal, but I see it as being light-years ahead of what my xWW did. She had no problem treating me like crap, screwing another guy behind my back, milking me for every dollar I had, and keeping my daughter away from me simply because she could. On the flip side, my gf treated her xH with respect and dignity, was open and honest with him about everything, was completely fair and amicable during their divorce, and legally separated from him before we ever got together.
> 
> If a person is going to divorce their spouse and move on with their life, that's a pretty damned good way of doing it. Especially if you've already experienced the worst that a person can do.


This is just more turd polishing. Just because others behaved much more blatantly disgusting doesn't make your shameful illicit destructive behavior good or acceptable.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> Dude, you've got far too much emotion invested in this.



Sorry, it's the fruit of the spirit. I know where this type of thinking and behavior leads.

I desperately hope you reconsider.

If you truly love her, walk away. 

Trying to build a marriage on a foundation of lies, betrayal, pain and destruction never works.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

To musicftw07 : I've read your posts. As you stated how things started "she was happily married" until she MET YOU.

You both had an EA. She just had a baby which creates cracks in a marriage. You DID take advantage of that, you wanted her for months.

She could have told her IC anything. As proper help would be MC. The IC would have recommended that. Guess that never came up eh? What chance did she really give her xH...?

I was dating and being single when my xWW asked if we can try again. Yeah, I love her and we are working on us. Sure, like you I didn't wait. But I jumped at the opportunity just like YOU did. And I stopped dating others. Hell, my xWW lied to me saying the breakup and affair is good for her... It was a fantasy on her part.

You are a major factor in the breakup of your GF's family. You F D over her children for her tail.

You are THAT guy. You did what thousands of other OMs have done before you. Your justification is for your conscience at this point. But in reality your LOVE is built on lies and destruction... At best, your GF got screwed by you and there is a 1% chance she'll be with you 3 years from now. She may realised what she has done... And will hate you for it.

But maybe not... Right?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

What was the original question.. for those BS something something, how did it go?

Talking about fish next?


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

Quality said:


> Marriage is a social construct.
> 
> Part of the reason our society is degrading is due to the destruction and devaluation of the institution of marriage.
> 
> ...


Actually I'm happily married, though I have been propositioned before by a married man when I was single. My opinion of him lowered drastically when he made clear his intentions.

I'm on this forum because I want to learn all there is about infidelity and why people cheat, or even about why relationships fail. Both my (beloved, smart, funny, understanding) parents were either cheaters or AP. All I know is that the world is a grey, grey place.

If my husband ever cheats I'm gonna remember he deserves more of my hate than the OW, that's all. However ****ty she was, she never loved me. She may have broken some abstract community standards, but my husband would've broken all that plus my heart. His vows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

musicftw07 said:


> I'm not quite sure I agree with this. There's a lot of hair-splitting going on. I've read numerous threads where people say "As long as divorce is filed, you're good." I personally agree with that, based on my prior experiences. My divorce from my xWW wasn't final when I started hooking up with a woman a few years ago, and everyone I talked to (both online and offline) gave me the green light.
> 
> I don't see why a double standard would apply here.


After the couple is separated and the marriage is clearly headed for divorce, I think it's okay to start dating again too, at least from a moral standpoint. From a practical standpoint, it's a lot harder to get all the legal stuff done if you have a new partner in the picture. It tends to make the previous partner bitter and angry and far less cooperative with things like money and custody.



musicftw07 said:


> Hopeful Cynic said:
> 
> 
> > She didn't end her marriage until she was confident you were on standby. Had she never met you, or at least had you never both confided attraction to each other and remained strictly coworkers, *her marriage very likely would have continued*. Therefore, you contributed to the break up of her marriage.
> ...


That's all I'm saying. Had she never met you, her marriage would have continued along its crummy path for longer. Perhaps they would have figured out how to improve things. Perhaps not. But with you in the picture it didn't ever stand a chance to improve. And yes, she had you on standby as her plan B even if you don't realize it. She may not even realize it herself - I think it's a kind of evolutionary thing for women. Had she gone to him (instead of you) and told him things were so bad she was attracted to another man, perhaps he would have had the epiphany he needed to work on himself and his marriage. You and she will never know.

I know it makes you feel better to believe you swooped in like a white knight on a dashing steed and swept her away from a terrible villain ten years sooner. But all you know about this man is what she told you. He was probably like most other people in an unhappy marriage; bad at communicating with his spouse and bad at figuring out compromises between their needs.

Did you meet this hook-up woman before deciding to end your marriage? Was an attraction to her a distraction from working on your marriage? Actually, never mind those questions; clearly your ex was objectively not a good person to be married to, so the comparison doesn't work. Your girlfriend's husband was only subjectively not good to be married to.



musicftw07 said:


> I'm not trying to be $h!tty or c0cky. The current topic on this thread was about Personal's decision to be an AP and that he isn't responsible for any fallout that may happen in the MW's marriage. I disagreed, and shared a personal experience that directly ties into that topic.


 @Personal is much worse than you on the sliding scale of morality. But you seem to hold yourself completely blameless, and we're just pointing out that isn't true. You only look better in comparison to @Personal.



musicftw07 said:


> You may not see it as being ideal, but I see it as being light-years ahead of what my xWW did. She had no problem treating me like crap, screwing another guy behind my back, milking me for every dollar I had, and keeping my daughter away from me simply because she could. On the flip side, my gf treated her xH with respect and dignity, was open and honest with him about everything, was completely fair and amicable during their divorce, and legally separated from him before we ever got together.
> 
> If a person is going to divorce their spouse and move on with their life, that's a pretty damned good way of doing it. Especially if you've already experienced the worst that a person can do.


Just because something is better than something else does not automatically bump it to the good area of the spectrum. Oh, I'm not a serial killer, I only murdered one person.

I dunno. Fair agreement or not, now he's reeling from his marriage ending (regardless of how much you believe the underlying fault for its crappiness was him), he has to take a long time to get over her when she's had a huge head start, he sees her quickly happy in a new relationship while he's struggling alone, and he will always wonder if she was cheating with you, with all the attendant self-doubt that causes.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

musicftw07 said:


> False. Again, re-read what I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think what most people have a problem with in your post is this:

It doesn't matter if you both agreed that it would be acceptable to work together for the next 30 years and never act on your feelings.....

And that is because at this point acceptable boundaries had already been crossed.....you two had already shared your deep attraction to each other and were actually having a face to face discussion about 'what if?'

A conversation like this with a married woman is ALREADY inappropriate and an emotional affair......it should NEVER have happened.

And it is impossible to tell what impact it had on her and her BH's chances to ever fix their M.

Because there was no way for her to ever truly push the knowledge from her head that she had you, a man she was attracted to, as a willing and waiting option if her M failed...

It didn't matter how much you told her to seek counseling.....you were already present as a third party in her M, a fact she was conveniently NOT informing her BH about......at least until she had 'worked' on her M issues with her IC/therapist and finally decided to clue BH in, after she had already set her course for D and he had zero chances of even addressing the issues in his M (And she did this 'work' by herself mind you, and not with her undoubtedly clueless BH, who was probably unaware that his M had been invaded by another love interest and was in real danger).

It is true that you did not PHYSICALLY engage her in an affair......but do not pretend that you did not insert yourself emotionally into this BH's M by engaging in declarations of feelings and desire with HIS WIFE.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@vel : read the book "not just friends". You talk about your husband in a "what if" scenario. But don't fool yourself into thinking YOU won't ever cheat.

There are many paths that lead to infidelity but standard scripts on what people do.

I never thought my wife would cheat on me. And she was concerned that I would. She can't believe she did those things... If she knew how much hurt me, it could kill her.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@musicftw07 : curious, how long did it take for her to start seeing your therapist? And from the time she started seeing him till the time she decided to file and have that talk? Weeks?

It's BS that she purposely didn't mention you.

Does her xH know YOU were having an EA with her for years? After all you said he knows about you. But if you and your gf are really on the up and up, then telling him such details would be a NON issue. No shame in your actions... Right?

Let's add a bit more about how YOU directly broke her marriage for your own selfishness. Neither of you told him a damn thing until she stabbed him in the heart. As you've stated, both your gf and her xH have been in therapy and are both better people. That means that capability was always there.

When I threw my wife out, we both also started working on our faults. Compared to 13 months ago (before her affair started) we are by far a much stronger couple now. I had internalized my issues and she didn't and wouldn't talk about her issues with me until the poop hit the fan. It took us 6 months screwups, drama and destruction before we were able to start on US. I'm better at listening and expressing myself as she is vocalising her issues and thus able to share and be a family.

Fact is, you already know your GF can cheat on you. If she gives you as much respect as SHE used to give to the father of her children... Well, then she'll cheat on you sooner rather than later. And if she is smart, sooner or later she'll see you as a cheater as well. Willing to eyeball every pregnant woman that walks by you.

So 1 year or 5... Let us know when and how you both went your separate ways.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

TaDor said:


> @vel : read the book "not just friends". You talk about your husband in a "what if" scenario. But don't fool yourself into thinking YOU won't ever cheat.
> 
> There are many paths that lead to infidelity but standard scripts on what people do.
> 
> I never thought my wife would cheat on me. And she was concerned that I would. She can't believe she did those things... If she knew how much hurt me, it could kill her.


Huh? Where do you see myself fooled? Shall I also add (though it was implied), if I were to cheat, I know I deserve more of the blame than the OM because I'm responsible for my own fidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I wasn't implying that you are lying to yourself. Just that you and everyone else have the ability to cheat without planning to do so.

Look at music06 in which he doesn't consider himself a cheater because he didn't have sex with her until she told her husband she was leaving. Likely his GF never cheated on her husband. So he, put his gf in a position to break up her family so he can get her for himself.

He basically said. Either we have feelings and never have sex or DUMP your husband first. She didn't try to save her marriage. Now, had he been standard OM type 1, he would have banged her earlier on... Then she might have dropped signs safe was having sex with a co-worker. Maybe she would have seen how wrong it was.

But nope. He dangled his carrot in front of her and the rest is history.


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