# confused and dont know what to do



## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So I will try and make a long story as short as possible.
Me and my wife both had a problem with playing entirely too much online video games, she works 12 hours a week and manages to play her game 60-70 hours a week. I work 40 hours a week and played at least 5 hours a day. We both ignored our problems and just buried ourselves in our addiction. about 2 months ago i tried to talk to her. Took days to catch her where she wasn't able to ignore me, and i mean flat out just ignore more, put her headphones on for her game and turn away while i was talking. I told her I was not happy and wanted to try and fix our relationship, to which she replied that her mother was coming to town any day for 3 weeks and she didn't want any drama while her mom was here. She accepted going to counseling if I would wait until her mother left town. a few days before her mom left town I found moving boxes in her car on the way to our kids (9yr old step-daughter, and 4yr old son) join birthday party. She had an apartment all set up. I had just had my shift changed to go in at 6pm and not 3pm, she had the truck set for 3pm so i assume she was going to move out while i was at work without telling me. Her reasons for leaving are: she wants to be single again, I wont take her to dinner or on vacation (we cant afford it with her excessive fast food spending), I am not good in bed (our 4 yr old sleeps in our room, and in our bed until very recently), and she doesn't have feelings for me anymore.

Now i have tried through 2 counseling sessions and all she does is say shes done, were one month past when she moved out and she is off her game and doing great. credits the fact we are apart for her happiness, when in actuality its she got off the damn video game like i did. I am at the point I can see that not only do i stand no chance of getting her back but I am clearly better off moving on. the problem is my family was all i had. I have no friends, no hobbies now that i quit playing the games i was truly addicted too. I am going to be stuck in a child support payment so I will be stuck in construction (which causes me physical pain these days after injuries) I had been trying to find a new career but with her gone and the support at about 900 a month I am stuck in my job.

My question is how do i move on past this without any friends, any hobbies, and having to see her all the time because I am getting joint custody. I still love her even after all this sadly. I do not move on well. My job has very unstable hours and I cant plan anything during the week due to hours varying I could start at noon or 6pm and work between 8-16 hours a day. I also have my son on weekends and honestly I have a hard time with that because all I see is my failed marriage and letting him down when I look at him. 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated right now, my mind is not in a very good place these days.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

You cannot control her. Do your best to move on.
Do not let her see your pain.
End all contact with except concerning the kids.
Employ the 180. Hit the gym. Read Married Man's Sex Life PRIMER.
Sorry you are here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

GutPunch has it right.

Work on YOU

Be a better man so you'll be ready for the next relationship that happens. Let you ex see what she missed out on by not even trying

Try to start establishing friendships with people at work and your neighbors to start. It's easy. Just a wave and a hearty "Good Morning!" (or whatever)


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo

Hang a list of the things you dislike in your life or caused your marriage to fail on your bedroom/bathroom mirror and on your refrigerator.

Those are the things you want to change in your life.

Your wife or current marriage does not belong on that list.

Wanna know why? Because your wife is a liar and a coward. She is not your friend.

Take your Xbox 360 and throw it in the garbage or pack it up for good.

Get in shape.....
Be a great Dad.
Go find out what makes you happy and then go for it.

Life is too short to pine away for a woman that does not deserve you.

In a year if you follow those guidelines great things will happen for you.

But waiting for them to happen is not going to work.

HM64


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

Is there any chance you can convince yourself that finding a new career is your hobbie while you do the other things to work on yourself?

I found volunteering and being more involved in my church extremely helpful in getting myself looking forward to my new future.

Good luck, we know it is beyond difficult,
Stretch


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Finding a new career was actually something I have been thinking on for a couple years now. I had been waiting on her to get a job, something she didn't try very hard to do. LoL she still delivers pizza only 12 hours a week and has an associates degree. Anyway basically I am a laborer and make $25 an hour so the pay cut changing careers to something I have no skill in would be huge. I am considering going to school with all my new free time, now that I do not play any video games all day.
I really cant wait to be moved out of my house, she left me in a house i cant afford because she took over 1/2 the money, with a car i cant register (registration is due in a few days) because it wont pass smog, and left me a pile of her stuff as big as a car to look at (that stuff is gone this weekend one way or the other)

One problem I am having is I work alone, I drive a truck and put out signs+cones on the road. So I end up thinking all night about this and taking my mind off my job. I've almost gotten run over a few times this month by not paying close enough attention, dangerous job walking around on the road in traffic and on the freeway. I even keep getting in trouble at work, my supervisor has been very good about it but thats got to be coming to an end soon. I cant seem to focus, and worse I leave work miserable and only have an empty house to go home to. My contact with other people outside of on the phone is only 30 second hellos with gas station clerks or a 5 min chat with my boss about the days work. the rest of the time I am alone.
It has always been this way doing this work, before her I had a major gambling problem from going to the bars at night since i had nothing else to do so going out anywhere is not a good idea.

Ryo


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you in therapy?

The addiction issues you have indicate you had a rough childhood.

Is that true?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I have gone to 3 sessions with a marriage counselor, 2 of which she showed up for. I get 2 more counseling sessions through my insurance but have been so busy that I just havn't bothered going again. I think in a week things will die down a bit. although I will need a new therapist as it would be like a 20 some mile drive to the one I am going to once i move, and I'm not sure I should continue and go alone to a marriage counselor. or should I since she already has had the opportunity to see me and her? I could make the drive maybe and time it for when I am on that side of town on thursdays picking my son up from school. So keep the marriage counselor/therapist, she will see me alone. or find a new one?

As far as my child hood lol yeah it was rough. I have serious issues there, I have suffered from depression/suicidal thoughts since I was 10 years old. No, I have never gone to therapy on this issue I just considered it done and in the past but It does affect many aspects of my life such as my ability to deal with times like these. I was also a serious alcoholic before I got with my wife, now I drink like 5 beers a month and plan on keeping it in control.

Just got off the phone with my boss, they are changing my shift again, such a pain. and I am in trouble again for something at work, I really gotta figure out how to not dwell on this while at work its just so hard when you work alone not to just think about it the whole time.

Ryo


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## HollowKat (Mar 23, 2013)

From one gamer to another, I feel for you. I am glad you have put your gaming addiction aside and tended to real life problems. I know how hard it is to put the thing you love to do, the thing that made you escape from reality for a moment aside. But you will make it. Consider finding new hobbies, building, models, cars, sports. Finding friends is hard but surely there is a few that you had in your life that you can talk to. You never know until you try. and If you try and fail, try again. Don't stop just because one thing didn't work out. If you want to find a gaming buddy let me know! PC/Xbox/PS3 right here bud!


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well she came and got 2 car load of her stuff out of the house, I had to pile it all up by the door and am sick of walking around it. its almost halfway gone now and it only took her a month.
Had a great day today even with having to see her. 

What i just dont understand is why on earth she thinks she should try and just talk to me like I'm her friend. I took our son back to her apartment after she took her last load of stuff and she wanted to talk, was telling stories and trying to keep me from leaving I gave it a minute then told her I have to go, said bye to my son and left. Felt good to just walk out of there with her still talking. And I was busy today at work and didn't get all bogged down thinking about any of it. Was a great day I need more of these LoL

Anyone got any books they recommend I read? I am making a list, will give me something to do after work in the late night hours that isn't self destructive.

Thanks,
Ryo


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sorry you are going through this. I know it's hard.

There are two good books that I think will help you:

"Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley.

After that read "His Needs, Her Needs" also by Dr. Harley

Look at the link in my signature block below for the 180. Interact with her according to the 180. Once you have read "Surviving an Affair" you can tweek it for the "Plan A".. the book will explain this.

What is important right now is that you start to take care of yourself. With or without you, start to work on being the best you can be. Your son needs you, do it for him and for yourself.

You also need to get a life away from the computer. There is a site I like for finding things to do. Go to Find Meetup groups near you - Meetup and take a look at things going on in your area. Then get out and meet new people. It's not about dating. this is not a dating site.


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## HollowKat (Mar 23, 2013)

Not just friends
Surviving Infidelity
Too good to leave, too bad to stay
His needs, her needs


These books helped me see the whole picture and become more aware of everything before and after, not just after. I feel its very important to recognize what went wrong so that you won't make the same mistake or at least learn how to handle situations better.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

an update, I have finished moving into the very large master bedroom I am renting (been here 2 weeks now) the old house has been handed over to the landlord in the best shape I could get it in. I am so glad to not have so many different things going on (i was packing her stuff to get the old place emptied, packing my stuff, moving, cleaning out the room I am renting of the old items here, divorce papers, and work)

Feels great to have less undone things hanging over my head. I actually slept for more than 4 hours the other night, woke up exhausted because I slept longer and my body wanted to stay asleep. 

I am having a serious problem that is a repeating cycle. I start my work week sunday night 6pm and give my son back to her sunday night before work (she will be picking him up starting this sunday, I had been transporting both ways since i was in the area before work each week) but anyway I give him back sunday night and I see her, then go to work where I am alone in a truck all night. I cant help but let my mind wander to places it shouldnt go. I usually get in trouble at work sunday nights now, then get sent home early because I screwed something up. then I cant sleep, monday is almost as bad, tues is a little better. (i only get 2-4 hours of sleep each night sunday-tuesday nights) Then wed I have been doing ok. Thursday morning I get my son back and all is well, until sunday when it starts all over again =(

Would it help if i dont see her on sunday when we exchange the child? I might be able to have someone else be at my house and have her pick him up 20 min after I leave for work. I am not sure if thats a good idea or not. I am not sure if i WANT to not see her, I think I should not see her, my brain says i dont want to see her but given the option I dont know if i could choose to not see her, ugh I hope you understand what i am trying to explain because I sure dont.

I will start posting more regularly now that I am not so busy, I was running non stop atleast 18-20 hours a day for a month and a half now getting everything done. one day i will sleep a whole 8 hours again LOL


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

From what you have said, it sounds like you would benefit from not seeing her right now. This might help even if it's only for a couple of weeks.

From here on out you should interact with her according to the 180.. see the link to it in my signature block below.

You might lose your job the way it's going. Can you do things like plan upbeat music when you are in your truck alone at work? Not love songs of course. 

YOu also need to take care of your sleep issue. Try Melatonin. You can get it at WalMart, drug stores or any place that sells supplements. It's the chemical your body makes to when it gets dark out to make you got to sleep. Make sure you have an 8 hour block of time when you take it as you could be groggy if you don't.

I've been talking it for a while to get over insomia. It works very well for me.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I do try and turn the radio on, for one reason or another (usually the phone) it gets turned down and i forget to turn it back up. i spend about half my time out of the truck, in and out of the truck hundreds of times in a shift. I think I might loose my job over this if i dont get it straight soon, my supervisor is still being really cool about it and I dont think any of the things i screw up are even in his daily emails up the ladder. although he had a talk about it with me the other night and said i gotta get it figured out. I get sent home early about once a week for something, and usually a second time a week because he knows i wont complain about the lack of hours as i have stuff to do anyway with the divorce.

I am trying the 180 as best I can, I seem to break down on that every monday morning. sadly this last monday resulted in a long email to her while unable to sleep. I was so tired that i had to read it the next day to remember what it said. she never responds to them thankfully.

I have tried melatonin, it wasnt helping before but i have a whole bottle so i will give it another shot this sunday night. 
Maybe I can arrange for the people I live with to watch my son for 20-30 min sunday nights after i leave for work and have her pick him up then, I will try that if i can this week, and I will reread that 180 thread. in fact ill just bookmark it and read it often as a reminder.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One thing with the Melatonin is that it's different then most sleep aids. It's not going to knock you out like a drug does. YOu have to still have a bedtime routine. Take it and make sure you are in bed about 20-30 minutes after that.

If it does not work, somthing like tylenol PM or one of the other PM meds might work for you.

When you get the urge to send her those emails, if you HAVE to do it... write the email then don't send it. Writing it gets the thoughts out of your head. I usually just delet emotional stuff like that after I write it. For me it's liek taking out the trash.. get it out of my system then dump it.

Just don't send her any more emails about emotional stuff... only communicate about your son.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I think instead of even opening my email to write I will just have to get back into the habbit of coming hear and reading. Been working my way through a thread I found lately 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/63357-time-regroup-move.html 
reading his successes and failures has helped me a lot this week. and its plenty long enough of a thread to keep me busy. I am also making it a point to have one thing every weekend to look forward too, today I bbq ribs which is something I do every spring. Having this to look forward too since about tues when i planned it helped me a lot.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

is she seeing someone/? who pays for her apartment?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She had some money set aside before she left. She used to keep her Christmas and birthday money and say she was saving it for a vacation and also hit a royal flush on our anniversary last year when we went out. I think she had about 2000. On top if that she took half the tax return 1200, and whatever she made in tips she had socked away from a few months work. She works 2 1/2 days now delivering pizzas she will be out of money I expect I. Another month or month and a half.
At the time she left she says there were 2 guys she was interested in. One I know is online in her video game and a lot younger than her and I can only assume the other is at the pizza place and a lot younger. She admitted to having been talking to both of them, which to me is a betrayal. One I would be able to forgive but that's a seperated issue. 

Looking back I shouldn't be surprised by any of this she has left every relationship in her past in the same fashion except maybe 1 or 2 and was even cheating a few of them. She was a bit of a revolving door for guys prior to me so the whole "I just want to be single again" excuse for leaving hurts but yet again shouldn't be a surprise. She was a stay at home mother for 5 years then delivered pizza 2-3 days a week for the last 8 months. Wasn't a good stay at home mom all she did was play online video games but was too lazy to find a job so she just complained about being home. Looking back I realize she was just comfortable where she was and too lazy to do anything to improve it since it was comfortable. I can also now see that even when something was important to me and I discused that it never became an important issue for her.
On a side note I think I did really good last night. I went to work and she met me there to take my son and she showed up in a new shirt that she knew I would hate. Very low cut with bits of see through areas on it. I waked the kid to her told her he was pro only hungry as I woke him up from a nap to leave for work said bye to my son then turned and walked through the gate to work. Lol she sent me a text later asking me "when was the last time he got a bath?" I replied "shower this morning" and left it at that. Unlike her I bathe him daily, she's more the 2 or 3 days then bath time. Later I talked to him on the phone and she was interfering wih the phone call he would ask about seeing dad and was asking me to go to my house and she's in the background tellin him no he stays with her and to say goodnight encouraging him off the phone. Normally he talks very short but this time he was chatting me up, for a 4 year old anyhow. I also normally have no issues with her during the calls to my son. Not sure what to make of that. She also doesn't look very good looks like she has lost a lot of weight and not in a good way stress must be eating her alive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I figure since I have not been very good about posting frequently I should do 2 things, summarize the last month and start posting regularly. 
So between my first post and now I have managed to get our house we rented cleared out and returned to the landlord and am moved in to the new place. We are progressing on the divorce slowly. I originally filed a separation just to ensure she could not return to moms house (out of state) and she countered with a divorce, but refused to sit down and have the divorce written up together so we could avoid court. I have filed for a court date to challenge the child support figures that are based on her lack of meaningful employment.

We have had one major shift (about 3 weeks ago). We had agreed to not tell my step daughter-9 (who thought I was her real dad) that I am not her biological father until after school got out, she jumped the gun and told her "Dad is not your real dad, he doesn't love you or want to see you again" she told me the my SD9 asked about her real father to which she was told "he doesnt love you or want to see you either" I feel terrible for this kid, I don't have any real love for her as mine but still I have always tried (she has oppositional defiant disorder and purposefully instigates things which makes it very hard and has pushed me away over the years)
Now the W blames me for what happened to my SD and claims that even if she wanted to get back together that she could not because I hurt my SD. She is like this with the entire relationship, blames me for the problems, I dont deny my mistates I know i made them and am owning up to them. But she cant admit to hardly any of hers, calls the marriage counseling sessions we went to a bashing her session when I freely start off with my own short comings then when asked go into hers. no wonder i only get her to 2 sessions (the second of which she used to discus divorce and not our relationship)

Not sure if this is something I mentioned previously in the thread but I honestly think she is running from her problems she has always been the type to run to the bathroom and cry and not deal with the issue. She left her home state and refuses to talk to anyone there these days, one day while I was at work years ago she changed her email and phone number without telling me and claims she just decided she didnt want to talk to anyone from home. never told me what happened to prompt the action. A few weeks before she moved out suddenly, and it was a very last minute planned move, I asked her about going to counseling as I was not happy with our relationship. I think she ran vs deal with her problems, our problems. I am at the point now where I am not even mad over the things I really just feel bad for her, which is difficult because i love being a rescuer so staying back is rough for me but thanks to you guys here and other threads I am finding I can let her sleep in the bed she made. 

Also I haven't been there in weeks, well inside. but at her apartment where her guard is down if I talk about us I can see her get visibly upset the last time I was there it ended in her standing there hugging me and being upset but the very next day it was back to "I'm done, how many times do I have to say it? you had your chance I am done. Everyone says you had 5 years" I don't get it at all it doesn't feel like shes thinking for herself, she stated her rings came off because everyone said she should take them off... I am curious if everyone is her online friends, pizza place coworkers (all in early to mid 20's) and both of those sets include a Possible other man she is "interested in"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok so I've been reading up again on the 180, think I will re-read this often to stay on track. Is it followed to the letter even if the she left and is essentially doing the 180, she texts only and when we talk its all business. 
However the thing is when I talk to her face to face I can see that she isn't exactly happy with how this is going, and she quickly ends the conversations and leaves. In the beginning she didn't do this and would show her emotion and I can tell she is, best way to say this... I think she is running from her / our problems and is internally upset about that but maybe not willing to try to fix herself. - she admitted to the therapist this happens in all her relationships and she just wants to be single again and never remarry.
So to sum up, do I follow the 180 completely? we have almost zero contact right now other than 30 seconds when she picks my son up on Sundays, i get him from school on Thursday so don't see her then.

I am also reading the fitness tests (wow I'm a fool) and about to start the War stories thread.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So in an earlier post I mentioned the phone call I had with S4 and how she hurried him off the phone with me, on monday night the line went dead during our call, its not unusual for him to hang up on accident since his cheek hits the iphone screen. but she called back about 60 seconds later and all he said was "I say goodnight have go" to which I said good night I love you and he said I love you and the line went dead. Then tonight she interrupted him on the phone saying "say goodnight" so he did in a sad voice and we got off the phone.

I emailed her:
Wife,
I do not appreciate my phone calls with S4 being cut short when he wants to talk to me. If I need to get off the phone I will initiate saying goodnight.

to which she responded 2 1/2 hours later:

S4 took the phone away from his ear and that's when I asked if he was done then he needed to say goodnight. He then did so.

Flat out BS I could hear her in the background clearly say "say goodnight" and only that in a clear, demanding voice. she wasn't even nice about it to him.

Anything I can do to combat this? I feel bad he has to deal with her acting this way, he doesn't understand any of this.
on a quick side note, I am amazed I even got a reply to my email she doesn't talk to me at all anymore unless she needs something.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I felt I was doing so much better this week... until i had to go face to face today, crashed and burned.

I am asking for a continuance for our court date, I cant make the date and wont go into details here. She agreed and I got all the paperwork and was supposed to run it by her work today at noon
(all this was arranged via email). 15 min before I get there I get a text:
W: What's the reason for the continuance
Ryo: I can't make the date at 10am
W: I'm not going to agree to it unless there is a very, very good reason why. This is a court date, It should take precedence over almost anything. 
Ryo: It does take precedence. However I screwed up by mailing you the forms (following instructions from my paralegal) before changing the court date. If you grant the continuance great if not I will file for one through the court. Let me know I'm on my way with the paperwork.

So I pull up to the pizza place and she is out front, hurries inside. Then when I walk in her boss (also female) walks up next to her and just stands there looking at me while we talk.
W: I'm not signing that without a reason, if its a good reason the court will grant it
Ryo: its a good reason the court will grant it, I'm only doing it this way because its cheaper. If you wont sign it fine I'll go through the court.
W: I'm not signing it unless you tell me why
Ryo: Ok I'll file it through the court, bye.
Turned and walked out. I lost my nerve in her presence, its like she sapped every bit of strength I had right out of me just by looking at me and smiling at our son. I went on a wild ride of I miss her to UGH I don't ever want to see you again why did I like you. Emotionally I was just all over the place, I don't know if my face let it out but she knows me so well I know she knows. She is also far more observant than I could ever be. I notice next to nothing unless I actively watch for it, and even then my attention isn't that great. 
I'm not ready for face to face at all. Looong way to go


On the subject of the mother's day cards I asked about here. I did buy a card for my Step daughter-9 to give to her mom since there is no one else in her life to do this for her, I had to give it to a school teacher that is their neighbor to give to SD with instructions not to bother saying where it came from just to make sure SD has a card to give her mother so she can feel like shes doing something for her mother. I am also going to help my S4 make one for his mother this weekend so he can learn the importance of this also.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

Practice observing.

Think of yourself @50,000 feet.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I keep seeing mention of #3s what is this? I have yet to find it explained anywhere. google is not helping me lol


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Here you go buddy...

From our friend Conrad:

In Anthony DeMello's book "Awareness", he talks about the 3 ways we give pleasure in life:

1) Giving pleasure to ourselves. Spending money on something we want. Pursuing an activity we enjoy. Just for us. We're pleased and satisfied with the result.

2) Giving pleasure to others in a way that satisfies us and/or makes us feel good about ourselves. There's always been a debate regarding Mother Theresa - as some have called her "selfish". She engaged in a lifestyle I would not want, but it worked for her. She gave with no expectation of getting love back or even a thank you. By all reports, she was an extraordinarily serene soul and a happy person. She gave that way for herself - and it made her feel good.

3) (or... #3's) - Giving pleasure to others in a way that makes us feel BAD about ourselves. We usually talk ourselves into allowing someone to cross our boundaries to "keep the peace" or we do something in anticipation of being loved. When the expected result doesn't materialize... or when they don't appreciate us? BOOM... massive anger.

Sound familiar?

Get rid of #3's and increase your personal power and happiness.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> 3) (or... #3's) - Giving pleasure to others in a way that makes us feel BAD about ourselves. We usually talk ourselves into allowing someone to cross our boundaries to "keep the peace" or we do something in anticipation of being loved. When the expected result doesn't materialize... or when they don't appreciate us? BOOM... massive anger.


That describes my entire relationship with her. all the way back to before we got married. Something I need to work on.

Thanks Regroup, your thread has been a huge help to me its so full of information from everyone and I enjoy reading your progress.

Will work on observing from 50,000 feet. I am much better at it in text/email and sh!t at it still in person. thankfully I only see her once a week. this week being the exception for that paperwork. I feel as though she purposely did that to me last minute to see how I'd react. failed. I'll try not to let it get to me. That or her boss put it in her head not to sign it, she sent the text to me right after she got to work and then her boss stood right next to her when i was there just staring at me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

Chances are, you have #3's in relationships with your mother and other females throughout your formative years.

Sit with that concept awhile.

Reflection is helpful in avoiding bad stuff going forward.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You should have told her boss "may I help you?"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I will spend some time thinking about the #3's in my relation ship with my mother, my current wife, and my only other serious dating relationship.

Looking back I have found I am a fixer/rescuer in relationships I had never really known it was a bad thing (thought it was normal), but I have always known I am drawn to women with problems. I have given this a lot of thought these last few weeks and think I may be on to something as to the why I am like that and its deeply rooted in a bad childhood. The #3's tie directly into this behavior it seems. 
Is this something I can unlearn or get to a point I do not do it subconsciously? Because right now I do this without thought it is/has been my norm for all my life.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?

Digest slowly. I think I read it 5 times before it started making any sense.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Digest slowly. I think I read it 5 times before it started making any sense.


Ok managed to read the whole thing, part before work, part at work, and just read the rest now. I barely stayed awake through that and your right I am going to have to read it again, and again.
I see a lot of how I was during my marriage in that article. Sadly I see a lot of how I was in my previous relationships in there too.
I will re-read it this weekend and maybe take some notes.



Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> Chances are, you have #3's in relationships with your mother and other females throughout your formative years.
> 
> ...


I have thought on this a lot today and the #3's are present in all my dating relationships, more so in the relationship with my wife than anyone prior to her.

As far as with my mom I have maintained a relation ship with her over the years for 2 reasons. #1 to keep the peace or essentially just avoid the drama of telling her the truth about how I feel. #2 because she is a giving person and its convenient to have her help with the kids and other things.

short summary of relationship with mom:
I attempted at one point in my early 20's to sever contact with my parents. However my grandmother got hit hard with cancer and I came back around. My mom has always been there to help me but I don't think I am capable of forgiving her for staying with my dad who, to me more than anyone, was verbally and physically abusive. I grew up hiding under my bed most nights hoping not to be found. 
I could go on and on about my childhood but its enough to say that I understand and have always understood that it is the root of my problems. I did not know how badly it was affecting my personal relationships throughout my life though. Most of this is stuff I have in some way known about myself all along but never admitted openly or internally. That would be denial right? That's changing now.

Would going to counseling possibly have an effect on my divorce or child custody?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Absolutely not.

Seeking counseling is necessary in these times.

You need a healthy outlet and a good therapist will provide you with that.

You are battling many demons and you can't do it alone.

Keep posting - you have a long road ahead of you.

In the end... You'll decide the life you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

UGH you know one of the most annoying traits of my STBX is she is so impatient she puts almost zero thought into things she just does them as fast as possible. I just received her answer for the motion I filed asking for times on the holiday custody schedule. Zero thought put into it, 10am-12am on everything... yeah I'm going to accept trading the kid at midnight on what will sometimes be school nights. I'm going to wind up fighting harder just to overcome her laziness.

Sorry I had to vent somewhere. But on a positive note I can see she doesn't want to go to court, she lowered her child support demand from 690 a month to 524... still not low enough with imputed income I should be able to get down to about 430. She needs to get her lazy butt a full time job. Delivering pizzas (2 1/2 days a week) with a degree :scratchhead:

I want to email her and point out the problems I have with this custody proposition should I? or should I just fill out what I want and go to court next month with it? Trading the kid at midnight on new years eve? that's retarded your just asking to get your butt run off the road by a drunk, especially here in Vegas. Wants me to give him back sunday night as usually scheduled then take him at 10am on my turn on monday holidays, need to add in something about keeping him over night if the following day is your holiday no reason to bounce him back and forth too often.

So what ya think, email her now, email her once I have my ideas written out? tell her im not ok with it and leave it at that until she asks? or just wait for the court date?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Talk less, do more.

Make your counter offer and get it in front of her.

No explaining.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BTW - if anything - going to individual therapy would be a positive step in terms of custody discussions/etc.

It will keep you centered and able to keep your wits about you.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Talk less, do more.
> 
> Make your counter offer and get it in front of her.
> 
> No explaining.


Will do, she wont see it until court then. I don't have any more paperwork to file, except financial disclosure, until the court date.

Am going to start the search for a new therapist Monday. I do need it and should have admitted as much a long time ago. Anything I am looking for in this or looking to avoid in a therapist?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Will do, she wont see it until court then. I don't have any more paperwork to file, except financial disclosure, until the court date.
> 
> Am going to start the search for a new therapist Monday. I do need it and should have admitted as much a long time ago. Anything I am looking for in this or looking to avoid in a therapist?


You want one that will challenge you - and understands codependence. A good therapist will not shy away from that term.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Is it normal to have pathetic dreams about your STBX? I woke up earlier dreaming about her. Again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Is it normal to have pathetic dreams about your STBX? I woke up earlier dreaming about her. Again.


Good thing to discuss in IC as well.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well she came and picked up S4 just a bit ago. 
I tried to be in observation mode as best I could, heres how things went:

W text: im outside
Ryo: went outside and told S4 to get in her car.
W; gets out walks around and stands there talking to me about SD

W: thank you for getting SD a card for me, she lost it before I got it but she is going to try and find it.
Ryo: she lost it? it was a good card too (mentions inside joke that was related to the card about our family)
w: she might find it, she had a sleep over and lost it there the other mom is looking for the card.
w to SD: you want to tell dad thank you for getting the card?
Sd: thank you, I miss you dad
Ryo: I miss you too (turned around to catch W smiling)
W: (long story about how SD apparently has a 1/2 brother in another state 26 days older and talks about her 1st husband being a POS)
Ryo: well he was a POS, make sure you keep in contact with her 1/2 brother she will want to be able to know him later.
W: (continues talking about her 1st husband too TMI)
Ryo: (buckled S4 in, she hadn't bothered to do it yet, said good bye to both kids and made sure to hand S4s card from him to wife. closed door and we said bye)

I'm not sure if I stayed out front too long or if conversations like this are good per the 180. I was starting to feel drawn to her so I had to close the door on the car and start wrapping things up. She wasn't making any effort to end the conversation but it had run its course and I was starting to think of nothing but her. Its moments like these where I am overwhelmed with the fact I do love my wife and want her. But thanks to TAM I can see that it it was not a reciprocal relationship and know that I need to work on me and all I can do is hope she works on her. Which I don,t think she is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tell us more.

This 1/2 brother thing is confusing.

No need to be chatty with her or even friendly.

Just business.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She just found out this weekend that my step daughter has a 1/2 brother 26 days older than her. Meaning her first husband was sleepin with someone else. So she was filling me in on that and complaining that he was a pos for sleeping with someone right after they broke up. They then got together again and he never said anything. None of my business and I dot know why she was telling me any of it. She has been all business no chit chat since she left unless I initiate the conversation. Which I have not done since I started posting on TAM and tead about the 180. Suddenly see felt the need to start telling me all of this. It is an ou of the blue change on how she is interacting with me an I'm not sure what to make of it. The 1/2 brother thing has nothing to do with us which is why I didn't post the entire story in my previous post. Sorry I was confusing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's ok.

Clearly, she's now wondering what's going on with you and is trying to get you to talk.

How were you two in the bedroom?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok this might Doule post am at work and it didn't go through on the first try. 
In not good in the bed room I get bad headaches with strenuous physical exertion and haven't really tried to over come this. I can own up to the fact that I could have and should have done something about this. I got in a rut with a bad attitude that if she wasn't going to put any effort into anything I cared about I wasn't trying myself. I should have been a better person and tried to lead us out of that but failed her and myself in this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Ok this might Doule post am at work and it didn't go through on the first try.
> In not good in the bed room I get bad headaches with strenuous physical exertion and haven't really tried to over come this. I can own up to the fact that I could have and should have done something about this. I got in a rut with a bad attitude that if she wasn't going to put any effort into anything I cared about I wasn't trying myself. I should have been a better person and tried to lead us out of that but failed her and myself in this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I applaud your honesty.

What can you do to address this?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

For starters I could try and get into shape I am not over weight but have never exercised much outside of my physical job. Went round and round with a neurologist 6 years ago when these headaches would literally put me Down after sex. This was when me and her first got together. The doc said it could be because I had been so inactive for years and just quit smoking (was a 2 pack a day smoker and quit cold turkey) also had cut my drinking down to almost nothing (was an alcoholic). I think it's just lack of exercise and I've been too lazy to do anything about it. I am starting to now but it's hard because I am to embarrassed to go to a gym and am trying to exercise alone at first. 
I also could have been more adventurous in the bed room for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> For starters I could try and get into shape I am not over weight but have never exercised much outside of my physical job. Went round and round with a neurologist 6 years ago when these headaches would literally put me Down after sex. This was when me and her first got together. The doc said it could be because I had been so inactive for years and just quit smoking (was a 2 pack a day smoker and quit cold turkey) also had cut my drinking down to almost nothing (was an alcoholic). I think it's just lack of exercise and I've been too lazy to do anything about it. I am starting to now but it's hard because I am to embarrassed to go to a gym and am trying to exercise alone at first.
> I also could have been more adventurous in the bed room for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok brother,

Gyms here are only charging 10.00/month with no contract.

Get after it.

See a chiropractor and get an alignment of your neck and spine.

You may even look into follow-up massage therapy.

You need to bring your A game.

To bring it, it must be available.

Be your best - love yourself enough to be your best.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

OK I've been doing a lot of reading on choosing an IC and have it set up with my insurance. Figured I would share these 2 articles that were helpful to me. They go into what each of the different degrees are that a therapist can possibly have. I was confused by all the abbreviations after their names when I was looking.

How to choose a therapist: Part 1 Part 2


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Wife was game addict too, that was a major way how she was able to seek online affairs. I was clueless to all of it...and then she suddenly demanded a separation, blaming me for everything...and then all she did was game, erotic role play, and then chat, email, and phone her contacts. It drove her to the bitter ground, never sleeping, highly stressful job (mental health if you can believe it)...and she had establish no-communication for a couple months. I had a dream that she was being by tormented by ghosts pushing her to kill herself...and I told her...and she broke down and said that she was considering suicide, was out of control, wanted help, and wanted me back. I said she needed to get into counseling, needed to quit all her contacts and gaming, and go to sex addicts group. And I did what you would call the 180, based on a book, Love Must Be Tough...which completely got her attention. Yet I think I got back with her too soon...as it wasn't too long before she relapsed again to her sex addiction. You don't know how many times she has threatened divorce...it just is so cyclical. She crashes, begs for forgiveness, gets on the ball, then cools off, then starts to isolate, secretly acts out, then says she wants to divorce. Presently, she is on the ball, but still wants a divorce, pretty sure that she has to go it alone so that she can get better...and I am starting to feel the same way.

I will never tell someone to pursue divorce without trying as hard as they can to make it work...that it can be the best thing that happened to your marriage, but DO NOT GIVE AN INCH!! I did, and she took the mile and ruined her respect for me, so not only did I fail to hold my marriage together, I also enabled the situation in a way for it to happen again. On the other hand, I believe in liberty...I do not want to be in a relationship where I have to be a parent. So, if it looks like things may work out between your two...do not run over to her...let her come to you...because you need that leverage to say ok, but then this is what needs to happen: No gaming, no cheating, go to regular marriage counseling...those hardcore absolutes that will set up boundaries of safety for your marriage. But if she complies, then you ought not hold **** over her head...just be very clear that at the same time, going back to gaming is gone forever.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

That is pretty much what I have been reminding myself everytime I see her. That I must follow the 180 if there is going to be a chance. I already pushed her far enough away in marriage and immediately after. I am amazed at the changes in here behavior with just a few weeks of the 180. I only see her once a week so its not like she sees or talks to me much but she has noticed. She is far more observant than I am. If she were to want to R. I am completely in agreement with you that the gaming has to go, at least the online gaming where she gets sucked into it with her "friends". Wouldn't bother me if she wanted to play a little Zelda or something we all like a little distraction. The hard part will be staying firm on this, I'm not going to lie I'm a push over for her and its something I am going to have to work on.



FormerSelf said:


> DO NOT GIVE AN INCH!! I did, and she took the mile and ruined her respect for me, so not only did I fail to hold my marriage together, I also enabled the situation in a way for it to happen again.


I will remind myself of this when the time comes.

ok an update I forgot to post. Apparently yet again I send S4 back to her with a fever, 102 this time he wasn't sick when I got him (unlike 2 weeks ago when I got him sick and he was still sick when he left) I think we over did it Sat with the swimming we had a big day. He was sick all night last night and I'm waiting to see if she will bother to keep me updated, I asked her to let me know how he is does. Probably wont. I want to know how hes doing, its not like its a critical thing and I cant do anything about it but you just wonder. Should I text/email to ask her or just hold off and see if she freely contacts me about how he is feeling?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Should I text/email to ask her or just hold off and see if she freely contacts me about how he is feeling?


If it's urgent she'll contact you.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> If it's urgent she'll contact you.


I was trying to reassure myself this was the right mindset.
I need to catch up on your thread its been a few days. I bet i got a lot of reading to do.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I was trying to reassure myself this was the right mindset.
> I need to catch up on your thread its been a few days. I bet i got a lot of reading to do.


At 50K, I guess it's an entertaining thread.

I made every single mistake the others have made.
We make them, so hopefully... you wouldn't have to.

It truly is a learning experience.

Keep it up brother, I am applauding your sincerity - only way to come out of this a better person.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

not about S4 but just got texts from her. We still have 1 join bank account our car insurance auto drafts from that we have been depositing 1/2 each of the payment into.
so she texts me

W:So how is the car insurance getting paid since that account is closed?
me: I didn't close the account
W: Last time I was at the bank they said it was closed
W: And it wont let me transfer money to it
me: I can still see it on my banking screen
W: I can too but it won't let me transfer funds
me: I just transferred $70 into it
(i watched online as she then transferred her half)
w: Ok idk what happened but it did it this time. Sorry.

she opened that up practically accusing me of closing the account and not saying anything. Wasn't sure how to handle this so I hope I wasn't to talkative. No mention of how S4's fever is doing.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Your wife is an emotional wreck. There will be no real logical priority to what she decides to focus her attention on. When we were separated my wife would go from being friendly and happy-go-lucky to suspicious and depressed the next. You really need to separate yourself from all that...get far away from her emotional rollercoaster...so you don't live in perpetual anxiety.
What is vital about doing a 180 (designed I'm sure to limit repulsive behavior and accentuate attractive behavior to your W) is that is really must be an authentic change...motivated to improve your life and you outlook. As a separate individual, you fell and look better...and have some confidence restored to outlook in life. THIS is what is attractive to a wayward spouse...and first, she will be taken aback, be little curious, and then test you to see if you buckle if she applies a little pressure. If you pass the test and she decides she wants to try again...then be aware that if your backslide, if she discovers you changed solely to please her, then she will not be fooled again, no matter how much you do actually change.
Also, if she says she wants to get back together...don't rush into it. It is going to help you if you take this time to work on yourself...and you need that space to focus and get grounded. Presently it doesn't seem like you are able to maintain your personal integrity when she is around...and that will hurt you bad as you go back to just trying to rescue and control her, instead of leading the charge for your new family vision.


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

When it comes to the IC, I basically did a session with three different IC's and stayed with the one I liked. If I did not like any of the three I would have kept searching. When you find the right one, it will be an amazing thing that you will look forward to each time you have a scheduled appointment. 

Additionally, I would suggest if you pick the wrong one, go back to interviewing or pick your second best. It is really important to have the right one for you.

Good luck,
Stretch


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

edited out, realized that my name and location was a dead give away to the W that this is me so this had to go.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

OK at night every night she will call me and its my son on the phone, about 830-10pm somewhere in there. I talk and then say good night to him. Now when I am done talking to him and we say goodnight I hang up. But if I wait and dont hang up (which I havnt done in weeks) she just hangs up on me. Its an Iphone so she has to hit the end button and can see I am still there. Tonight as soon as S4 says goodnight she takes the phone from him to talk to me before I can hang up. 

W: S4 is feeling better now
me: ok good
W: I am going to let him go back to school tomorrow
me: I am busy I have to go, bye
W: bye
me: hung up

I wasn't expecting this, she never wants to talk to me at his bed time. when she got on the phone unexpectedly I panicked. I may have the wording on the all slightly wrong as I wasn't in observation mode was just talking to S4 while working and trying to pay attention to my job. I panicked when she got on the phone and just wanted off as I wasn't ready for the conversation at all.

Minor conversation that isnt worth anything but its all I got for today.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She did it again. As I was saying goodnight to him she says "wait don't hang up on me" as he takes the phone from him while he is saying goodnight. I think I miss the texts only communication. I'm not sure I want to talk to her on the phone. On one hand I am dying to hear her but on the other hand it just makes me sad and I can do nothing but think of her after we get off the phone. 
She basically just let me know he still has a fever and now has a slight cough. He got sent home from school today for having a 99 degree temp. She asked me to get cough medicine so i have some for him. All I said was it was silly for the school to send him home for that small a fever and thanked her for telling me. Then I said bye and got off the phone. 
Would asking her to keep all conversations between us to email or texts only be harmful to any possible change of heart on her end? I'm not sure what I would want at this point but don't want to damage that option should she come around. One of my biggest problems is these calls is they are while in at work and that just messes my night up.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Really nothing new today from the W. S4 is still sick, she was kind enough to text me about it this morning, choosing to do so while I am trying to sleep ugh. down side to working nights, doubt she "forgot" my sleeping schedule that fast. Its just another reason I need to get around to asking no telling her to email only unless its urgent (i have to have my text sound very loud as I sometimes get texts to be in to work early and they have to wake me up) I didnt even bother with a response to it, not sure if thats just flat out rude. Maybe I should have acknowledged her text about him being sick, owell done is done. I rolled over and tried to get back to sleep instead.

Have 2 good friends coming over for steaks Saturday night so I have my weekly "something to look forward too" I wish I had been smart enough to get that planned before tonight lol so I could have actually been looking forward to it all week damn me and being lazy this week I am falling off the productive wagon and back to my usual self, going to have to work on that asap. I had been doing so good the last month and a half at not being lazy and getting stuff done. Seems the nights I manage to get close to a full nights sleep I am groggy and cant seem to get anything done.


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

Keep up your momentum RYO. You are taking your life back, good for you.

Stretch


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

well one step closure to the therapist appointments she emailed me asking what various times/days are good. 
I also wrote my W an email today listing the various community property items she took and what she left and showing the large difference in the 2. I only want one thing back I don't care about even I just want this done and over with. Also asked her, again, to please keep communication to emails only unless its urgent then text. I'm a little pissed she woke me up the other morning with that text but then again it should be of no surprise. She never cared about my sleeping/work schedule when we were together.
Tomorrow I have company coming over for steak dinner, Im excited I love to bbq. have a great weekend everyone.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I took the court ordered co-parenting seminar today, one less thing to have to get done. 3 hours of talking about co-parenting and its challenges is enough to send someone back into depression and wishing she would change her mind, was a rough afternoon.
My friends (both female) came over for the bbq tonight and when I called my W to let S4 say goodnight they both came in and were talking in the background, wonder if she will make things difficult over that or not. She stayed on the phone and would not hang up even after he was done on the phone Im assuming listening to what was going on.

Now that part that has me suspicious... I have a really good long time friend online from my online game I was playing way too much, he is friends with her too but they hadnt been talking hardly at all in months. 20 min after that phone call with the W and the girls in the background He sends me a message asking "so how you been entertaining yourself these days? I havnt talked to him in 2 weeks. I sure hope hes not relaying information because he knows a few things about the D i dont want her to know (legal issues that I wont mention publicly on the forum yet) ugh thats enough to stress me out. Now the part where I cant help but sit around and wish she never left. Some days just are like that


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

forgot to post this yesterday, last night when I went to work she met me there to pick up S4. Not a single word was said. Last week she was talking my ear off this week, nothing. I'm not sure which way I like it better. On one hand its by far much easier emotionally if we just hand over S4. On the other hand I was looking forward to her possibly being more open and friendly. I find myself logically knowing that if she cant work on her problems we could never stay married and have it work, but emotionally what can I say. I love her. After last week I went into last night looking forward to possibly seeing some more open friendly wife I used to see. Maybe even catch a smile out of the corner my my eye again. Kinda depressing not to get anything. I dunno maybe it was just that damn co-parenting class that **** was depressing for me. screwed me up all weekend. On a positive note I got 8 hours of sleep today! Feel terrible from it because I have been getting used to 4-5 hours and now I am all groggy and cant seem to wake up.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Picked up S4 today from school and got to go over his IEP with his teacher, lots of progress has been made in 7 months of preschool:smthumbup:
Best part was during his real IEP with teacher and mom when asked what he enjoys doing it was play with friends and go see dad  I know its probably wrong of me to think this way but i cant help it, she deserves it. S4s teacher said she was very unhappy, I told the teacher well if she would ever get up and maybe do anything with the kid he might enjoy her company.
OK all done enjoying my day. Just felt I'd share the fun.

I start with the therapist Wednesday next week. So I'm nervously looking forward to it, if that makes sense. Also I have Sunday night off and no son, I'm not sure where or what but I'm going out! Wish I had single friends, I don't even know what to go do that isn't kid stuff its been a long time.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I want some input on something from you guys. (i know your not attorneys, I am after your input because you've been here and done it)

Here's the situation the W works pizza delivery 20 hours a week, only during the time I have S4. She has another child she has full custody of. I plan on asking the court to impute income to her because she has an associates degree and is perfectly capable of a 9-5 40 hour a week job.

she is asking 525 a month in child support (she is all over the map here. started asking for 500 then went to 700 then back down lol)

Based on my income, If she were to make (or have imputed income of) $12/hr I would pay 406 a month. $15/hr I would pay 312 a month. Now I know child care can factor into this, I have him thurs-sunday so she would need him watched mon-wed. 

On one hand I want to avoid the court fight it can take months to impute income, they will give her 90 days to find a better job THEN look at her effort and impute income. This fight could cost me a few thousand $. I also am turning down overtime, I work a lot during summer and hardly any during winter. So the longer this goes on, the less money I have to get me through slow season. (a second job is hard with my frequently changing hours during winter) I also may have a temporary summer job (80+ hours a week) lined up to help me play catch up. BUT i cant take this if support isnt figured because it would make the payments too high for me to make them during winter. I'd starve.

On the other hand I can't stand the thought of supporting her laziness a minute longer, Ive done that for years! AND I have him 4 hours short of 50% of the week, I am doing my part. Add in the fact she took everything just about, I am keeping my pension (worthless IMO) and my IRA (happy about that one) but other than that am basically starting life all over again like when I moved out of my parents house, when we got together she had next to nothing I had the furnished house. SO basically I feel robbed in a sense and cant stand giving her more money than I am forced too, I cant stand the thought of willingly doing so at least.

So there's arguments for both sides, I have till the 19th to figure out my game plan and would really value your opinions.
As you all have been here and done it, so you truly understand where I am coming from.

I am leaning towards offering her something in the 375-450 range instead of rolling the dice in court and prolonging the ordeal. Just so I can have the option to work more open to me. Am I being too stubborn on the support amounts? I mean I have dealt with her spending tons of money on things like fast food as a stay at home mom too lazy to cook for years and it pisses me off. I am doing a budget for the first time in 6 years because she would look at it when we were married she just spent whatever. Now I just want control of my money and my future. I want freedom of my own future free of her. (most days, some days I want her ) Wish she would just let me take him full time and she could be gone and not my problem. child support is the only reason we are not divorced yet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Offer the 375-450


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'll do that. I'll offer her something I think she might take, and be ready to up it slightly to get it done. I need to stop letting my anger towards her and the situation get in my way. I get so worked up about continuing to support her laziness its unbelievable. Guess that's what happens when you've spent the last 6 years working a TON of overtime to make the level of money needed. Just to have her try to keep milking you once shes gone and left to be "single" which I take to mean with her possible EA she basically admitted too. Hope she likes "pizza boy" as I have started to call him. Since I am almost positive hes a co-worker at the pizza place, better him than me. See here I go getting mad again.issed:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

$400 a month will seem like a bargain.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> $400 a month will seem like a bargain.


yeah when she first left she was only asking for 500 a month then it got up to almost 700 a month when she found out she could get more by simply not working anymore than her current part time job. That's why I'm having a hard time with it, I take him 50% of the time yet she wants the same amount of money almost as if I didn't take him at all. 
Well at 400 a month its still cheaper than her  She spent that on fast food in a month to avoid cooking as a stay at home mom.
Wish the court date was sooner.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In the rear-view mirror, it's pretty clear you treated her as you would like to have been treated.

That's a sure loser.

Women aren't men.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah your fitness tests thread was, after a few reads, very awakening to a number of things I did wrong along the way. I was always too nice and let everything go. She walked all over me not really didn't meaning too. She wasn't bad in a lot of areas until it just degenerated to that point over time. that's partially my fault. Although the items I did stand firm on she didn't really care what I thought. Eventually I gave up trying not knowing what else to do. Never really had a good relationship modeled for me growing up so I was kinda just winging it my whole life. Parents marriage is a joke, abusive father. All our family friends marriages are non-existent or the same. No wonder I had no idea how to make one work.

Sadly she is in the same boat. Her mom left her first husband (and 2 kids) for a truck driver (my wife's father) she actually grew up her first few years in a semi truck. Then later in life had him the alcoholic father who she thinks was molesting her when he was around. And her mom, doesn't even believe her and just wants to talk about herself (which is a lot like my wife). 
Both poorly taught I am surprised it lasted 5 1/2 years.

I've always been the "nice guy" I don't think I can change that about myself.
I'm non confrontational in almost all aspects of my life. Had enough yelling in childhood to dislike any arguments now, makes me uncomfortable.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

Why do you associate standing up for yourself with anger?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You realize you can stand up for yourself without yelling or getting angry right?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> You realize you can stand up for yourself without yelling or getting angry right?


The few times we argued about something (except for maybe 2 or 3 times) I didn't yell or get angry. Of those times i got angry, I think there were 2 in the beginning when I was drunk, I don't drink more than a few drinks anymore for that reason. 
The only recent time was taxes, she screwed up and neglected to put down 3000 in taxable income and didn't want to bother to fix it. even after explaining the IRS problems that can happen she just didn't care. So I got mad and was yelling at her to get off her game and go fix it. She was trying to put her headset on to ignore me and play that damn game (something she did a lot, just pop on the headset and ignore Ryo when hes talking) instead of dealing with the problem she created. (sorry getting off topic) but that was the first time in probably 5 years I had yelled. I felt terrible for yelling at her, and our taxes didn't even get fixed. None of the things I had issue with ever got taken care of regardless of how much sense I made in the discussion. She never cared, she just gave in to shut me up on some of them and then only when I was looking.



Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> Why do you associate standing up for yourself with anger?


This may sound silly but I feel scared or intimidated by the though of an argument. Like when I was a kid. A lot of what I remember was hiding under the bed for hours as my dad just yelled at anyone he could find. I feel the same now when in an argument as I did as a kid under the bed. Even other people arguing bothers me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

That's what you need to work on in IC

Cool - firm - dispassionate boundary enforcement.

People WILL do what they're allowed to do.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

IC starts Wednesday afternoon. Will be going once a week i think. Thankfully my insurance, after I go through a $500 deductible, covers it at $12 a session.

And I did allow it. I am getting better about it though so long as we stick to emails and texts. I have trouble with things in person.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Had the first session, it was actually Tuesday. thankfully my phone reminded me I had the days mixed up. I wasn't sure what to expect for a first session but we kinda touched slightly on all aspects of my life, felt sorta aimless but the therapist doesn't know me so I guess its kinda like feeling someone out. I go back weekly on Tuesdays for now. Therapist only took a few minutes to call me on being a fixer and too nice. So I am hoping that's a good sign that I got a decent therapist to go see. She wants me to get a sitter on a Saturday and go hiking since I am a bit too out of shape to haul a 4 year old on a hike still. I haven't gone hiking in years I miss it, but its no fun solo so I will be looking on meetup.com for hiking groups to start doing that. Also was suggested I have my testosterone checked, not looking forward to that as I assume it will be low. 

One nice thing, tonight when I talked to S4 at bedtime on the phone my W didn't bother to interrupt us or tell him its bed time. He spoke with me for a whole 7 minutes before I had to get off the phone, was walking down the freeway at work and it was kinda noisy. I am glad she is getting better about that, its not my fault he likes talking to me on the phone. When I have him I have to force him to talk to her and I think she is upset by his willingness to talk to me on the phone.

I probably wont be posting often for a while as there's really nothing going on, I don't speak to the W at all and we are a few weeks away from the court date still.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I got the brilliant idea yesterday :banghead: to start deleting photos from my dropbox account, her cell phone used to automatically uploads pictures to my account. I found 3 pictures she took of herself, face shots. Giant smile which I hadnt seen in a long time. They were not taken and sent to me so got me wondering who they were for. She hates pictures of herself I guarantee it was a long process of getting her hair and makeup right for those. I tossed and turned all night, wish I could keep things like this from bothering me. But on an upside I feel great today since I didn't over sleep like I have been doing lately, and today was S4 pick up day.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

well I posted earlier and it seems to have not posted. Owell the point of posting was just to vent some frustrations. (frustrations not included in this post) My day at the shooting range canceled today, everyone going canceled. So instead me and S4 went swimming for the afternoon. The motorcycle I am buying the seller wants it gone asap now so I have to go tomorrow and take a look at it and get it to the bank to get the check cut. My therapist said I should get back into something I used to enjoy doing as I gave up all my hobbies for marriage and kids. Or get into something I have always wanted to try, that's the motorcycle. I'm excited and nervous about learning to ride.

I finished up my version of the holiday plan and emailed it to her to see if she approves of it, my version doesn't have us exchanging a kid at midnight new years eve lol I don't think she put any thought into hers.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I got the brilliant idea yesterday :banghead: to start deleting photos from my dropbox account, her cell phone used to automatically uploads pictures to my account. I found 3 pictures she took of herself, face shots. Giant smile which I hadnt seen in a long time. They were not taken and sent to me so got me wondering who they were for. She hates pictures of herself I guarantee it was a long process of getting her hair and makeup right for those.


This kind of thinking will kill you.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This kind of thinking will kill you.


I fully understand how that kind of thinking is a killer but stopping it is something I am unaware of how to accomplish. I made it a point to stay extra busy at work the last 2 nights but still have been having a hard time, I wont be going through any more pictures anytime soon I promise. The therapist didn't help much the other day brought up lots of things then sessions over and kinda left me with things fresh on my mind. Although she did leave me with a few things to look into doing they haven't really been time consuming things (making doctor appointments for testosterone level testing and a few other things)

Any advise for when I know my thinking is wandering where it doesn't need to be?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

OK so Friday I sent over a holiday schedule I typed up as hers is stupid and poorly thought out all she did was check the boxs for holidays alternating and write in 91m-12am on some and 9am-9pm on others (including 4th of july and last i checked fireworks tend to go till like 10 as it doesn't even get dark untill 8 something here) 

anyway here's what i sent proposed holiday schedule
_Christmas​Christmas shall be divided into two (2) periods with the first being December 24th at 12PM (noon) thru December 25th at 12PM (noon). The second period shall be December 25th 12PM (noon) thru December 26th 12PM (noon). With the father having the first period on even years and the mother having the first period on odd years._

she responds Monday morning (i don't know why it took 3 days maybe she took it to someone to look it over) with she wants pick up at 9am on Christmas day (why would you make a child open presents then leave right away?) her reason: she makes dinner that day and doesn't want to be bothered with transportation :scratchhead: So i told her that I was not ok with an earlier exchange due to the opening of presents.

Her response: we are not going to agree we will have to settle this in mediation

I replied by telling her if we cant try and work this out through email mediation inst going to do anything for us and a judge will be deciding our Christmas schedule and asked her to come up with a suggestion she likes and email it. 

After a while i got an email about another subject and in my response I asked if she had gotten my email offered to have us drop off instead of our usual pick up when doing the exchange to accommodate her cooking (she needs to understand no matter what its going her way only 1/2 the time and its HER FAULT she is the one who left)

her: I don't think a child should be split into 2 places on Christmas day. I don't see us agreeing on this so it will have to be worked with a 3rd party later I suppose.

my response was long but I'll summarize: I explained again if we cant make any progress ourselves mediation isnt going to help, reminded her that if a judge decides then all hope for her having control of the outcome are gone. agreed that splitting Christmas day is not a great option but the most important part to the child is waking up and opening presents and I am not ok with exchanging him right after he opens them. I asked her again to come up with an idea and we can continue working on idea until we come up with one we can both live with. even suggested she look up examples online and offered to email her 2 I have in front of me. I then threw in one requirement and that's that both parties have the time to open gifts Christmas morning or AFTER as I don't want to try and explain why Santa delivers early to only our house.

No reply yet. Is it just me or doesnt it seem like she is unwilling to put any effort into resolving even little things like this. Her parenting plan was done in about 45 seconds, I watched her fill it out. She makes zero effort to come up with viable solutions or even an excuse that uses his best interest. The world has always had to revolve around her at holidays and she seems to think its going to continue that way.

Best way to handle this? I need to come to an agreement with her on this or I am going to be married too late into the year which will cause me financial problems. I just don't understand why she thinks mediation is going to be any different then emails other than possibly having a few ideas of their own she didn't have to think to get. Her laziness reaches new heights every day :rofl:


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Seems every reply I get is an argument and not a productive suggestion, below I see no progress towards a conclusion only wanting to argue over what has been said and not solving the problem. I am so tired of this behavior.

Her: Whoever has him Christmas morning could do santa gifts for that year. I never said anything about an AM split Christmas morning. I mentioned that whoever has him Christmas day can pick him up around 9 or 10 pm on Christmas eve.

my response: He will be getting Santa gifts from me every year and a stocking. My mistake i thought it said 9am. Ok so how about Christmas Eve morning through till Christmas night at like 8-10pm somewhere in there. Then at other house all day on the 26th to do Christmas there. Basically every other year you get the full Christmas Eve / Christmas Day but on the off years you just get the 26th for presents. Or we could just alternate Christmas yearly that is also an option leaves it open for holiday travel that way. Both of those options you get a full Christmas but only half the years and there's no splitting Christmas Day during the day.

thinking that solves her I have to cook I'm too busy to drive poor me cry. see if we get anywhere. I really don't care which way it goes I just want it agreed to and in writing. Oh new response is in, that was fast (Lizzie is my step daughter)

her:I don't want to do that. I want Lizzie and Nicholas to have at least either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day together.

I need a response that may actually get her to suggest something.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stop talking.

All she wants to do is fight.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I wound up leaving the last email telling her to let me know when she comes up with a schedule that she thinks is ok. 
I don't know what she thinks this solves, mediation will suggest a 50/50 split of the Christmas holiday and if it goes to a judge he'll probably just be annoyed and give me the split I offered originally which I took word for word out of a friends time share schedule and its what the mediator suggested to him during his.

OK a separate issue here. I have an aunt 4 miles from here who is very sick and they just released her from the hospital and told her its time to check into a hospice. I am going to go with some family down to see her but it may or may not line up with the days I have my son who I want to go with me. How should I approach this with my wife? I was thinking I'd just give her 2 choices straight out, let me take him extra days and go to California or find yourself a baby sitter on the weekend while your at work for him. I'm not really in any mood to be nice about it after yesterday, and this qualifies as a family emergency. 
Just got an update looks like we might be heading down there Sunday (if she hasn't passed yet, its that close), I normally give him back Sunday night and she doesn't work Sunday during the day so she will probably opt to take him early.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I wound up leaving the last email telling her to let me know when she comes up with a schedule that she thinks is ok.
> I don't know what she thinks this solves, mediation will suggest a 50/50 split of the Christmas holiday and if it goes to a judge he'll probably just be annoyed and give me the split I offered originally which I took word for word out of a friends time share schedule and its what the mediator suggested to him during his.


Then don't waste another precious breath trying to convince her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I was hoping to have it all worked out and possibly be able to be done and divorced in a month. If not ill still be married in 3 months and turning down overtime to keep my income in line and not saving money to help me get through the slow time of the year. I think she has figured out I want this expedited because suddenly she doesn't want to move it along.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just got done with IC for the day. Therapist thinks I should ask my wife to sit down and talk to me. She wants me to ask her if she is reconsidering the relationship and possibly wants to go back to marriage counseling, she also wants me to ask her if she is seeing anyone. We both think she is seeing someone. 
I am not looking forward to this as I am expecting the answer to those questions to be no we are done and yes she is seeing someone. Just wanted to throw this out there and see what everyone's thoughts are on this.
I know its against the 180 but the therapist seems to think that my wife was trying to reach out by attempting to be friendly and talkative with me. I didn't mention the 180 to the therapist maybe I should have, although I did explain that I had made a change in how I acted and stopped trying to get her back.

I am not sure what to think anymore.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

She has to ask Ryo.

Don't go against The 180. Doing so will only set you back and line you up for more rejection. Don't pine for this woman.

Keep working on yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I really didn't want to just set myself up to be rejected again. I don't know why I don't think of things in therapy like this but I feel that in order for me to trust she is genuine in wanting to work on things if it came to that, I would need to see her able to make the effort. I have tried to resolve our issues and get her to go to counseling with me. She hasn't put in any effort, I definitely think now that I have had a few hours to think about it. I really think I need to see her effort to know shes really in it. She made no effort to keep the marriage, she just left. If she will make no effort to repair it without me holding her hand and dragging her to therapy why should I ever think she would make an effort in marriage again? Your right I need to just work on me and see what happens. I'd love if she worked on her and then we worked on us. That would be amazing, however unlikely. Not sure if I mentioned this but the other week she over drafted the joint account with the subscription for that online game shes obviously still playing, now I know why she always says she is too busy to get back to me on divorce items LOL slipping right back into her gaming to avoid real life.

Thank you group.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She's showing you who she is.

Believe her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's showing you who she is.
> 
> Believe her.


This is something I needed to be reminded of, again. 
Much harder to believe the truth than to believe what you want to be true. When I sit down and really think about it, its obvious she is not who I thought she was. She is instead who I always deep down inside knew she was but I refused to believe that for a long time. I am sure I'll need this reminder again, I should write it down and hang it up LOL


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Went ahead and asked her today if she ha though of a possible way to split Christmas or not. She replies that her neighbor a joint custody dad gets Christmas Eve every year and his ex wife always gets Christmas. She's nuts if she thinks I'm not having my son ever again on a Christmas morning. She seems to think that's a fair split. Figures she gets a dummy who was completely willing to never have Christmas morning again and think its fair as her neighbor.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

My therapist asked me 2 questions that I think I should have been able to answer quickly and easily last week. She asked me what I loved about my wife when we got together, what it was the made me marry her. She also asked me if I were to list her qualities what would they be. 

The first question I can honestly say I do not know. My memory may be tainted by a couple years of unhappy marriage to her or maybe it is what my wife says "2 lonely people who found each other" I have a job where I work crappy hours and I work alone most of the time. My only human interaction was yelling at people on the road who almost ran me over at work and drinking at the bar at 6am after a 12 hour work shift. Maybe I was just lonely and latched on to the first woman I had any type of relationship with in years.

The second question... well it just makes me feel like I should have opened my eyes. My wife lacks most qualities you look for in a person. She is smart, very smart. She is attractive, a little out of shape but she still drove me nuts. Amazing cook. sadly that about sums it up. She is too lazy to put the cooking or intelligence to any use, she is content being smarter and better in her video game killing 15 year olds all day.

I don't know if anyone else does this but I go back and re-read my thread or bits and pieces of it often. I am posting this, as I have with most things, to help me think through it. I tend to get my best thinking done by talking to someone even if they don't respond. The act of putting it out there helps a lot, and here I get to re-read it and get reminded of it again which will help a lot. Without the ability to repeatedly go over things I tend to just forget them.

Maybe I only loved not being alone, I was miserably lonely before her, as I am again. Also I think I loved having someone who cared about me, she did at one point there's no doubt about that.
But outside of those things, and of course my son, she never actually made me happy. Silly how I still miss her even as I write this, but the more I think on it the more I come to realize its not HER I miss... I just miss the spot being filled in my life, even if it wasn't filled well it was filled.

Conrad your comment really hit me, your right she is showing me who she is and for years I pretended not to see it. I even went as far as to just dismiss things and make excuses for her to myself. I don't know what feels worse, the loss of what I thought I had (that's what I really lost something I thought existed but didn't) or the fact I let this happen to myself.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I've had a pretty good weekend. Me and S4 went to a friends house last night for dinner with another friend of mine. Our friend is trying to get us both to move in with her and rent her 2 extra rooms. That's a possibility and it would be a great move I think. S4 wouldn't have his own room but I only have him 3 nights a week. I think the fact that the room mates would be 1) a 30 year old woman and her daughter (9) and 2) a 30 year old woman who has been an in home child care provider or nanny for 2 young boys for years. They would be about as kid friendly room mates as I could find. I think my share of the bills would be all of 350 a month, can't beat that. 

I am not sure how the courts would look upon that living situation though, which is why I am posting it here. What do you guys think? Where I am currently at I rent a giant master bedroom for 500 a month but can only stay 6 months, 4 more left then I have to move out. I want to buy again next year and moving to the cheaper room would help me save money, I'd spend triple that on an apartment and utilities. Either way I end up moving in 4 months and if I can buy next year. I have always been the type to sacrifice short term to make something happen, something the W never figured out.

Opinions?

Oh and I found another way to calculate my income that brings my child support down considerably :smthumbup: I now have my first 6 months of income records from 2012 (she took the filing cabinet with those records when she moved) I can compare those to the first 6 months of 2013 and show a 28% reduction in income due to the lack of overtime (she picked a great year to leave me lol I haven't gotten 40 hours a week most of the year). Now I can reduce my last years income on the w2 by 28% and I get a number that's even lower than my base hourlyx40x52. Looks like we are going to go to court there's no way she'll accept what I plan on offering her now.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'd like to thank everyone for the books they have recommended I read. I have been very busy and am only just not getting on to my second book, although I have read all the articles linked in the previous pages. This book _Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay_ is probably going to require a second read through. I barely started it today and if I had sick time at work I would have called in to keep reading it. I'm really rethinking the last 6 years right now, even looked through all of our photos for the first 4 years except the honeymoon trying to find an answer to one of the questions in the book. 

"Think about a time when things between you and your partner were at their best. Looking back, would you now say that things were really very good between you then?"

with the exception of the honeymoon the answer was no. It only took me a minute to answer the question but then an hour to stop looking for something to make the answer yes. I went through my entire photo album except the honeymoon pics, sadly there's nothing there. Just a bunch of pictures of me playing with my step daughter. Really there's nothing there of me and my W happy together or even doing anything together.

When she left she basically told me what I think I figured out today. Now I feel bad because I thought it was absurd and it may not have been. Don't get me wrong I do love my wife I just no longer remember why, maybe its just familiarity and comfort. But its obvious on her end, it was never really there.
I should be grateful she left. I never would have left, hell I still miss her even though I cant explain why.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

It's called codependence.

It's because you don't love yourself enough.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> It's called codependence.
> 
> It's because you don't love yourself enough.


anyone here have a good thread posted dealing with codependency and how they have/are working on the issue?
I'd really love to read it if there is one, I'm sure there's one somewhere. This is a topic we haven't gotten to in IC yet but I've only gone twice so she is still asking questions about the marriage.

No IC this week due to a sick family member and I was potentially going to be out of town, for the same reason I had to cancel the motorcycle riders class I was taking this weekend.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> anyone here have a good thread posted dealing with codependency and how they have/are working on the issue?
> I'd really love to read it if there is one, I'm sure there's one somewhere. This is a topic we haven't gotten to in IC yet but I've only gone twice so she is still asking questions about the marriage.
> 
> No IC this week due to a sick family member and I was potentially going to be out of town, for the same reason I had to cancel the motorcycle riders class I was taking this weekend.


Look up my thread on "Nice with Expectations - the Ticket to Emotional Hell"

You'll see yourself.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Look up my thread on "Nice with Expectations - the Ticket to Emotional Hell"
> 
> You'll see yourself.


Finished reading that today while at work. I did see a lot of myself in there. I think I was less of the mindset that I was doing this to get that and more of the mindset that I imagined it was my responsibility to do these things and did them based on that. Where I also grew resentful of the fact she didn't do many of the things I felt were here responsibility, if i mentioned this they would get done for about a week then it was business as usual. I plan on ordering that book mentioned in the thread no more mr nice guy and giving it a read through once I am done with the book I am currently reading. 

I have been thinking about my marriage a lot the last few days and I started out being depressed by it. The more time I spend thinking about it though the less I am depressed. Instead I feel like I was taken advantage of, almost like I was robbed by her. Robbed of my time, money, and love. I feel betrayed by her, she left me once I wanted change so she could be single again blaming me for the problems. Most of all I feel responsible. This was my fault, not entirely, but I did let it happen. I did all the things I did for her and my family on my own. No one told me to sell my old truck I was working towards fixing, no one told me to sell my '59 VW karmann ghia I loved, no one told me to sacrifice all the things important to me for my family. And she never said she would do the same, and she never did. I have no right to be angry over that, I still am a bit though. Now she had agreed to get a job when she quit the job she had right after our wedding. Then she agreed to get a job after the baby was born, then it was after she was done breast feeding, then once hes old enough for day care, on and on. After a while I made another mistake, I gave up. Nothing I had tried to fix our problems worked because I was the only one trying, she had no interest in it. I'm not sure how I should feel about that, but I can say I do wish I had done it differently. I have lived the last probably 3-5 years expecting something that was never promised and resenting her for not delivering. If you read above I mentioned things were never that great in the first place now that I am thinking about it all I can see that. It doesn't change the fact I do love my wife, although we have established that may just be my codependency.

I don't know whats next. I'll keep reading this book then move on to no more mr nice guy. Maybe I should show this thread to my IC so she can read it. Might speed up the process of figuring out where I am at for her. Or maybe TAM is best kept separate I dunno.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You did these things with the expectation that she would reciprocate.

She didn't.

You're pissed.

Classic niceguy behavior.

But, you know what?

Niceguys aren't nice.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok just ordered no more mr nice guy, now If i could only learn to read faster. I should have this other book finished in a few days, maybe. I get S4 tomorrow so that's a major distraction to reading as playing is far more fun.

On another note the welfare division has opened a child support case through the DAs office against me, yay . not sure where to go with that, I am going to court against her about the support next week hopefully I can get it all handled there but if she signed the welfare form giving them rights to her support case she may not be legally able to sign off on not getting back support payments, which is the balance in my mind to her taking 3x the money she left behind when she moved out.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I don't know whats so hard to understand about the following statement. "please use email for all communication that is not urgent, if it is urgent you can text me, I do not want to talk to you otherwise."

She kicked S4 off the phone again tonight to talk to me, no crazyness or anything, she wanted to know if i was coming to get S4 in the morning or if I was sending my mom like I did last week, sadly I am going to get him as moms out of town. I'm not good at the 50k in person, that's why I am trying to keep it text/email only. After only 2 visits my therapist has already said she thinks I have add, which I know I do I cant pay attention to anything for more than a few minutes. that's why I like text communication I tend to stop listening on the phone.

When I talked to her I found something out though. She apparently is now only working 2 days a week again, she claims they cut her hours at work. I'm having a buddy of mine go in and ask if they are hiring, I don't buy it I think its the old poor me victim show right before court. On the plus side since she is not working I can pick up S4 a little later, 9am is really early for me as I don't get off work until 2am and I think I'm getting sick so I don't want to cut my sleep short.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok i need help...

today I picked up S4 at noon at her place. She let me come in while she ran to the kids room and grabbed something for me. We talked for a second and I asked her if she was ok. She answered with a hug. Now I cant rehash 3 1/2 hours of conversation that I had with her. some of that time was spent playing with my step daughter but most of it was spent sitting on the couch with her talking about us. She wants to work on things but is obviously being held back by the fact she is worried about how her family will treat her. They all hate me now because I havnt been involved in the step daughters life since she left me.
Her other big deal issue is my lack of empathy. I dont show any, ever. My therapist thinks I have add which I agree with. theres aspergers on my side of the family and my dads side of the family is all just plain "weird" so thats just part of who I am I cannot change that. If possible I want my W back, I want my family back together. I require some change on her part too but she is willing to talk about it. 

Now my big problem, next week court is wednesday and I have a surprise for her. I have an attorney and she doesn't. I don't know what to do. If by miracle we manage to make a decision to work on things before then we can call off court and refile later if needed. I am ok with the expense of that for the chance. but if we havnt gotten that far I am worried I'll push her away by beating the crap out of her in court with an attorney.

To answer pending questions yes she has slept with someone else, only one and once, was her neighbor sadly. She is interested and talking to another guy but she has agreed to stop that if we are going to try.

So what do I do next? I want her back but I want her to make an effort to have a healthy relationship with me. I love my wife its not all codepence talking. I had a great day today and all we did was sit together and I played with the kids a bit.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

Does this have anything to do with the economic insecurity associated with being cut back at work?

I take it "neighbor guy" is still around, and he's already gotten the goods. Do you have a copy of the No Contact letter?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm sure some economic insecurity plays into it, its a present factor and as such would play into any decision.

neighbor guy is her neighbor, his kids are my step daughters friends. its her new neighbor at her appt so he wasnt around before she left. yes hes "gotten the goods" once. she said she has no interest in him just happened one night. I am ok with this. I've been in a relationship with this issue once before and although I wasnt able to deal with it that time I learned how much it can bother you, this time I know I can accept it has happened.

whats the no contact letter?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo

You need to make sure you want to R and your wife wants to R.

She has gone from laying video games for hours to moving out to banging the neighbor to wondering if you two should work on the marriage.......

All that since April?

Does that sound normal to you???

You both need conditions/boundaries in place for a successful Reconciliation/Marriage to happen.

You should put your requirements on a piece of paper. She should too.

Then have a deep discussion.

Otherwise you will be back in the same boat in a few months.

HM64


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I like the idea to put it on paper. 

I want R if shell make some efforts to improve herself as I am making in myself. 

What should be done about court should I let her know about the attorney?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I like the idea to put it on paper.
> 
> I want R if shell make some efforts to improve herself as I am making in myself.
> 
> What should be done about court should I let her know about the attorney?


Nope... full speed ahead.

Let her see you are totally prepared to be done with her unless she's serious otherwise.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

:iagree:

Show her new side. No more mr nice guy.....


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok full speed ahead unless given a reason to stop.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Ok full speed ahead unless given a reason to stop.


Read this link tonight. Reflect on it.

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I will read that right after work. Maybe a little while at work if I can get away with it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just wondering. Any ideas on how to tell of her possibly wanting R is financially motivated? Any red flags I should be mindful of?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Just wondering. Any ideas on how to tell of her possibly wanting R is financially motivated? Any red flags I should be mindful of?


Pretend you are at 50,000 feet when you talk to her.

Watch her breathing, physical body language, when she's startled, etc.

All clues to her sincerity.

At the same time, observe your own emotional reactions.

RESIST the urge to airbrush details.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Airbrush details?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm going to update this post as the night goes on. In it I will list the reasons I can think of that point to her motives being $. Without taking notes I forget things I think of

1- She is almost out of money. 
2- found out yesterday her job was cut to 2 days a week from 3. That means about 12-14 hours a week. 
3- found out today my step daughter is off her meds for add for financial reasons ($75 a month) 
4- I had the clutch redone on her car in jan and she claims its "acting funny" and mentioned today it's getting worse she asked about the paperwork for what was done in jan. 
5- she's scared of getting a lot less for child support if the judge supports my argument. In a landslide victory which won't happen she actually could pay me due to her past income. She knows this and mentioned it.
6- S4 just had a dentist appointment and needs crowns in some of his back molars for cavities. 
7- this ties in with #5 my income is substantially lower this year. I told her that today so if she has any sense she will realize that means less child support

Non financial issues she may want R wrongly for include

1- she wants to move out of state as previously mentioned however she clearly based on today's conversation has read enough to realize she won't be taking S4 with her is she goes. I'll win that custody fight. 
2- her nursing school she wants to start is set up in an unalterable schedule that makes working full time next to impossible. Although that may be a $ reason also as a non $ reason.
3- she is also sick right now and may just be realizing how convenient it is to not be single and have help with everything in life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Airbrush details?


Look past red flags due to "hope"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Look past red flags due to "hope"


That's about what I figured you meant. I'm so bad at the 50k I tend to just not notice things I'm horrible at just following the conversation after a few minutes. I tend to get distracted and have to bring myself back. Noticing body movement or reactions is next to impossible for me for longer than a brief chat. At work I have to wright everything down as we're going over the days work so that I stay involved and can focus so I don't just end up looking at the wall so to speak.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok I have been thinking about this stuff all night at work, its time I post a list of the things wrong with the marriage and see which ones are fixable, acceptable, or plain out a deal breaker. This list may need to be updated over the hours as I think of things.

1- effort, she never put in any effort into the relationship or much of anything else. If something held no importance to her yet was very important to me, it still was of no importance to her. Typical nice guy I was the opposite. This is a must change item, without change its not going to work.

2-effort into the normal household things you do such as clean, watch the kids vs just be present in the same building. And all around general parenting was poor. This is something we both need to work on, I am willing and have been working on it. If she is great if not I'm not interested.

3- the video games. Too much time spent on this, I have quit playing since I started posting here and am staying that way (except for maybe a pausable single player game one day but no more online MMO type time sinks) I'm not sure the best way to handle this. I don't think an expectation she just quits her hobby all out is fair but maybe a limit like only on weekends or something. After the kids go to bed is not an option she will just stay up all night. Suggestions?

4- Communication. We both need a lot of work here. I am getting better at expressing my thoughts through the help of friends, my therapist, and you (thank you tam) This is also a requirement to change.

5- I'm not sure what to say about "neighbor guy". flat out anyone she is semi interested in is a no contact. But neighbor guy is her neighbor and my stepdaughters friends dad. She has no interest it just happened, I get it. I think its ok to say only minimal contact absolutely no hanging out period. But then what of my friends (quick summary I have 3 female friends from ages ago I have been spending time with. 1- ex GF from 10+ years ago 2 1/2 year relationship. no interest in her at all, 2- old friend who 10 years ago I fooled around with drunk twice she is semi gay and im not interested at all and never was, 3- non important mutual friend of the other 2 who is not around much and not a great friend but is around on occasion I also had a thing for her in high school. BTW i'm 30 so 10 years ago means these are all HS friends. My therapist says friend #2 is ok, but we havnt talked about the others)

6- anti-social with other women. She can't get along with any of my friends wives or girl friends. There is always something wrong with them. I can't live like this any more I need friends and socializing. For someone who complains so much we don't do anything she sabotages all our friendships. This has to change.

Thats a longer list than I thought it would be. Might be too long to expect things to work. But everything on that list except neighbor guy and anti social I am guilty of myself and are also changes I expect myself to do for me. I am changing these things to improve my life with or without her. If she will make an effort to work on them also we could possibly be together again.

Issue I have no idea what to think of is my step daughter. I will post on that tomorrow.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

If you have to go to court, by all means take your attorney. Just don't slap him on the butt (see Chad Johnson). Your financial interests need to be protected and if you truly are ADD, then attorney is a smart way to go. As for children, their best interest should be the focus.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I have known for years that I may possibly be add. My dads entire side of the family has something wrong with them. My sister has aspergers and my son may have it also. I cannnot listen to you talk and do something with my hands at the same time, I just cant. I get off topic like crazy my therapist seems pretty good at bring me back on topic when she wants to but I just get sidetracked every other sentance. If its not an add issue like my therapist suspects its something.

My step duaghter the issue is that I have almost zero emotional connection to anyone including her. My W is upset I don't love the step daughter after 6 years. Its not something I can make happen. Only 2 people in the world I love my wife and my son. My mother isnt even on that list. I've never given it any thought why I don't get emotionally attached to people at all but I don't. If your not one of the 2 people listed above I love I won't shed a tear if your gone. A number of close family members over the years have passed some very close and it doesn't bother me a bit. The W was the exception, something about her I connected with. I felt close to her and comfortable with her, she was like my best friend who I felt I could spend the rest of my life with. Its the reason I married her. My son, well I just can't help it hes my son I loved him the moment I saw him.

My step daughter has oppositional defiant disorder and was on mediation for add. She drives me completely nuts most of the time. Not an evil kid shes only 9 but oh does she drive me nuts. If I can find a good thing about this divorce its not having her be my problem any more. That is a major thing that makes me unsure if I want to go back. She is only going to get to be more of a pain as she gets older, especially with the lack of supervision she gets from her mother. She just lets her run the apartment complex, shes always just let her do whatever, thats one reason my list of things I need to see improvement on has parenting on it. The W is flat out lazy as can be. I don't know how much she can change these things. I think its possible as I am making sincere changes to myself in all these areas. Admittedly I am not making the changes as well as I would like, exercise is a great example I am still not doing that as I hate it. Although I am obviously doing just enough for her to notice as she commented on my arms today and I am now a little more motivated LOL

I am also a jealous person and she seems to like to use that against me. examples are today she went out of her way a number of times to talk about how once she left me at work they all call her a milf now constantly and how many guys are trying to date her. Its a rare thing that anyone says or comments on me but when it does happen I never went home and told her because I knew it would bother her as she really is insecure.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What has your stepdaughter done to get you to like her?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She used to be a sweet fun little girl. We would play games together a lot. I would read to her and we watched tv together. Me and my step daughter were very close until the last like 1 1/2 to 2 years. I miss that her but am sort of relieved the person she is becoming is possibly out of my life. But also worried because she is not out of my sons life and I'm not there to try and keep her on track. 

Over the years she has turned into the beginnings of a person I do not like. It's crazy how a 9 year old can flat out be manipulative. She comes home from school and brags about getting the boys at school to give her things or do things. She searches the house for cash when your not looking and steals it to buy candy and snacks. She constantly sets up situations for drama by lying to me or my wife about each other or about my son. It's crazy how she acts and my wife doesn't feel the need to take her to therapy I bet it's due to laziness. Oh and that victim chair is my step daughters main seat. She loves it like you wouldn't believe it's amazing how she actually believes she's the victim when being punished for something you literally warned her about and watched her to continue to do just to spite you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

One thing you'll notice is that it's human nature to experience life as a victim.

That's why our instincts don't serve us well in relationships.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> One thing you'll notice is that it's human nature to experience life as a victim.
> 
> That's why our instincts don't serve us well in relationships.


Never really thought about it that way. Things with her would be a lot better if we did more to stop the behavior but my wife refuses to actually do anything other than send her to her room. I think she really needs to continue with the therapist we used to take her too years ago but my wife didn't like the inconvenience of it she never openly admitted this but she complained about having to take her often then just wouldn't be going anymore. 

The laziness is probably something that won't have a long lasting change isn't it. It hasn't changed yet even though she is out on her own. It's actually more a combination of lazy and seriously self
Centered she gets up and does things she wants or benefit her without a problem.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What do you do with her?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What do you do with her?


with my step daughter? usual dad kid stuff park, bike riding out front, watching cartoons. no where near as often as she would like due to the fact I work but we always did something once a week on weekends except for maybe the last few months when things just were not right at home. Currently I don't see her at all. 

Or are we talking punishment? thats corner time or to her room depending on severity / frequency of being in trouble. I have no idea how she is being handled now that I am not around.

interestingly I just got a text from the wife as I am typing this, 
W: are you around this neighborhood by chance?
me: No why?
W: no worries
me: everything alright?
w: I had to get Lizzie from the babysitter. So now shes here bored all day, If you were on this side of town I was gonna see if you'd take her on errands. I shouldn't have even asked. So don't worry about it.
me:No if I was I would take her. Your not at work?
W:I am
W: shes with me

I havnt responded any further and Im not sure if I will.
so she has my SD sitting in the lobby at the pizza place for the next 6 or 6 1/2 hours while she delivers pizza. Sucks I feel bad for my SD.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm not going to give in to the fixer and go get the step daughter. I plan on showing up at 830 at her place with dinner and hanging out and maybe if she wants talking about our expectations of each other if not I will just enjoy my night as I truly miss my family.

Full speed ahead on the D for now regardless of tonight's outcome were too close to the court date to change anything and I want her to realize I'm not just throwing in the towel and racing back to save the day. That list of financial reasons to R is too long so if we do work on things the $ is staying separate and we will more or less be dating, I am not comfortable being her supporter and rescuing her then being dumped again.

Is it a fair requirement from me to expect her to seek some therapy? 
I'd even be willing to help her pay for that after her free visits run out as I know she can't afford it after that and I think it would benefit her.

other things I need to see is a willingness to deal with the fact I HAVE to plan things. I do not function well without a plan (this drives her nuts). I can plan not to plan example: plan a day on a vacation to just do whatever. 
I also need to see a willingness to invest in our future through saving towards goals such as vacations, house, new car and so on. I do not like her way of doing things which is credit.
most importantly I need to know she will take my needs seriously and will not just dismiss them as she had in the past. It will be a lot of work to resist always fixing things for her but If I am going to get what I want out I need to learn to not just freely give what she wants without communicating my expectations.

I'm actually nervous about tonight, worried about my ability to observe well enough. wish I could just take notes the whole night LOL


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

any boundaries I should set for tonight? like leave after a time limit or anything?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I know I was supposed to get NMMNG read today but I am no where near done with it. However one line in the book says I should have my partner read it along with me. Should I forward it to her to read since we are considering R?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok dinner was interesting. 50k observation mostly a failure, but I had my moments I focused. Obviously I cant narrate a whole 3 1/2 hours I was there but I can highlight the things that stick out.

First off she is hesitant to work on things, the message of the night was essentially she doesn't know what she wants. She clearly misses me in some regard, but is unable to really figure things out. She said she hasn't really given this any though it just sort of happened. Later in the night I asked about the hug yesterday. Why she hugged me and what she was thinking. Her reply was she wasn't sure. She is stressed out and that there's something comforting about me. She points out right after that that she doesn't know what she wants.

She wasn't as close tonight as yesterday. Yesterday we sat together on the couch for most of the time I was there, today it was at the dinner table all night except an hour on the couch watching tv with the kids. I made it a point a few times to stand closer or farther from her and pay attention to what she would do. She kept a minimum distance between us of about a foot but wouldn't stray much out of 2 feet when we were standing talking. If i moved closer she backed away if I moved away she would slowly come closer. She initiated a few hugs throughout the night as did I during conversations. When I initiated she would cut them short, when she initiated they would linger.

She came out to my car after I left to have S4 sign a fathers day card, which gave me a few minutes alone with her without kids as he was in the car and stepdaughter was inside. During this time (i cannot remember who initiated) but we had a nice long hug that ended with me going to give her a kiss on the cheek as I let go, she turned into it (maybe unintentionally or out of habit)

Overall I am not getting the idea she is after coming back to me to make life easy on herself. She seems that she wants us to keep our distance and take things slowly if at all.

Things we discussed tonight:

She made it a point to say if we work on things she doesn't want me to move right back in. this is ok, I agree.

We talked about my lack of empathy and how it bothers here. I can't fix this but I can try more to understand and listen but will need reminders. I cant change this but with help I can work around it.

She is unsure as to weather or not she can trust the fact I do love her. This is not normal but I do not attach emotionally to people. If a relative dies most people are sad, it doesn't bother me at all. I have only ever had real feelings for 3 people in my life. As far as she knows the number is 2. Her and my son. And my cat as a kid, but that cat hid under the bed with me when my dad came home every night. I can't really explain this any better than that, the example she cited is my mother. Her mother and my mother both did the same thing to us as kids, stayed in a relationship with an abusive father. She says even with that in mind she still loves her mother even if she dislikes that about her. my mother is someone who babysits for me. she is a nice person I visit and likes the kids. I visit and interact with her solely because I am supposed to. I have no feelings towards her one way or the other. My W says because of these things she knows about me she is unable to feel certain about me loving her. My troubles with this are the reason I never left my W even when unhappy. I fear I may have trouble finding this again, I felt comfortable with her from the very beginning and even if her actions don't make me happy her smile always did. I can see her concern and have no idea how to counter it.

"when the satisfaction of the security of another person becomes as significant to one as is one's own satisfaction or security, then a state of love exists"
_Harry Stack Sullivan_​The above was completely true until she left, now its wavering but that varies daily.

We talked bout the bad sex life we had, and I reminded her that it wasn't entirely on me. We had our son sleeping in our bed, I work a different shift than what is normal, and when we did find the time and run from the kids they would both be at the door banging on it. There's no time for foreplay when your goal is to hurry up because they kids are banging on the door.

Her thoughts on marriage in general are a concern to me. She considers it a waste and hassle. Like it means little more than getting the govt involved in your separation. To me its a commitment to the other person to try and work through your problems in an effort to stay together. She seems to think now that thats a stupid idea if its time to end a relationship its just time to end it, doesn't seem to grasp the concept of commitment, you commit to another and they to you. This is an odd thing to me as commitment seems such a basic thing. I love her but this attitude has me concerned that if we got back together how long till I end up here again. This is a major factor in my thinking R is not wise now. 

We talked about expectations in a relationship. She said she is tired of expectations. I said they are normal you would expect me not to sleep with anyone else, is that not an expectation of yours and a fair one at that? She seemed rather defensive while on this subject like she is looking to protect herself from having to make changes, not a good sign. She even took a more defensive posture during this part of our talks, stepping back to her furthest point from me of the night. She flat out said she is worried I'd ask her to stop playing video games, I told her i wont ask her to stop entirely but they must be kept within reasonable limits as I am not going back to what was. She said she hardly plays anymore, just a little every day to which I told her if that's the case acknowledging that you need to keep that in check and under control shouldn't be an issue. She basically has expectations but doesn't want to communicate them, and doesn't feel comfortable with me communicating mine, like I am placing rules on her.

We talked about Lizzie a little bit and about S4 and how much better off they would be with both of us in their lives full time, I told her I don't want her back if that's the reason but that she is correct they would benefit if it happened and we had a healthy relationship. I also pointed out to her our not having a clue what we are doing in a relationship is due to our parents not properly showing us, I don't think that had occurred to her before (thank you tam for pointing that truth out) She agreed with me on this

We talked about her working. I told her I do not want and will not get back together with her without a full time job. period. She needs to work, not for $ reasons but because she is unhappy at home and displayed to me her lack of effort over the years at finding a job when I was providing. She will be much happier working and needs the push to get it done. Surprisingly she agreed with me.

I brought up marriage counseling, she said no she hates those people they make her cry. and she states that crying is disgusting and so she wont go back. I am not surprised but I am going to try more later on this. I think I need her in therapy of some sort for her issues with expectations and commitment if this is going to work.

She brought up (in regards to my being able to truly love her) the fact at one point last year I was not attracted to her. She says love should not care about looks or a few pounds. I told her it wasn't the number of pounds it was how and why you had them. sitting on your butt all day in front of a game and never doing anything is how you got them. A normal amount of activity would have you looking good, you only looked bad because you were lazy. She looked good after a month or so at the pizza job and that was only 20 hours a week. She looks great now size wise, thinnest i have ever seen her, too thin for me but hey it'll come back.

She talked briefly about money. If we work on R she doesn't want money to be joined back together, ever. She wants each person to keep his/her money separate and do things that way. This I cannot figure out how it would work fairly. Bottom line is she would never save for retirement knowing full well I would do it. She would save for vacations instead and expect me to pay my way to go along her words: "that way I can save for a vacation and go, and if you want you could save some money and come too" my thoughts: selfish, immature, unrealistic, not a chance.

All in all I love her but wonder what the hell I am thinking thinking this could possibly work. I can't handle this if shes not thinking R and willing to make changes. I will give her a little more time to think about this now that she is obviously unsure. I am going to give her "too good to leave too bad to stay" Sunday night I hope I can get it all read by then as it has helped me see things more clearly. It has also helped me a bit in understanding what a healthy relationship looks like. 

I need a book that demonstrates a healthy relationship that I can pass along after I read it. Is "his needs her needs" a good one? I have it on my desk but haven't gotten to it.

I think the therapy part is going to be my deal breaker. I think she needs it for us to succeed. She needs to grow up and realize that just because she isn't comfortable talking about something doesn't mean it can be ignored. I think I can work on this issue a bit by giving her a book or two to read and see if she reads them and considers the possibility that therapy isn't bad. This also reminded me why she stopped taking the stepdaughter to a therapist, the therapist turned on her a few times, me too, about parenting issues. Boom no more visits.

editing in something I forgot: I miss my W, I miss having a family, but after an afternoon and an evening back I am uncertain as to weather or not I miss my step daughter. She hasn't been on her meds for a month so she is definitely not on her best behavior and I need to remember that. But, I don't know. She had to be told things over and over and over again tonight, that wasn't even always enough. I didn't realize how peaceful not living with her was until tonight. She really was always a sore spot in our home life as she always just caused so much trouble. Do I really want to sign myself back up for that after having been released from it? S4 would benefit as his sisters bad behavior is something he will have to live with 1/2 the time, my W who I love would benefit from it as 2 parents trying to manage an ADD / Oppositional Defiant Disorder child is surely better than one. Does that add up to me being better off or me setting myself up for years of dealing with her only to potentially be left by my W again later.

Sigh, I just don't have a clue what to do. So many things here that scream don't go back. and a small number of very big things pushing me to want R.

I know there needs to be some change, but which items are my deal breakers I am not so sure.
I'll sleep on it and post more tomorrow.
End wall of text.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryo. Run.

She doesn't want to be married, she wants to be single with the benefits of a 'husband' she can blame, fall back on and use whenever she's miserable or lazy. She stated how many times she doesn't know what she wants, but she does know she wants you as Plan B.

No MC because "crying is disgusting"? Really? Yet she dares to question your ability to love, coming from someone who declares crying to be disgusting .. that's rather bold.

She wants to keep her money separate so she can go on vacations alone "because she saved up for it"? Really? I'm all for each spouse having spending money from the jobs they work 40 hours a week at, but the bills should be shared and common financial goals should be set. Also known as savings for the future TOGETHER, not separate agendas.

Doesn't want to give up video games? Seeing how it is a horrid addiction and tool for avoidance in the past, this is the first thing that should go. I am also speaking from experience on this as I used to play 6+ hours a day (yes, MMOs).

There are so many red flags in this entire thing, I really do suggest printing it out and posting it in a few places on your wall at home. It would take me far too long to even go through it all .. but it all leads to the same answer. She doesn't want to put any effort in and you do, she doesn't want to change her life, you do.

If you really want to be happy in your life, just from the way you wrote this out (you do not appear to be happy by her responses, yet cling to the fact that you 'miss her'), you will not find it with her. Not now and not until she gets her act together.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

06Daddio08 said:


> Doesn't want to give up video games? Seeing how it is a horrid addiction and tool for avoidance in the past, this is the first thing that should go. I am also speaking from experience on this as I used to play 6+ hours a day (yes, MMOs).


She claims to have gotten to the point she plays at night after the kids are in bed for a few hours then goes to bed herself. As someone who has played entirely too much I understand its an addiction but I know I plan on playing games again in the future once I am a better person. I do not feel I need to ask her to quit playing, but only if the rest were to be resolved. If she were to work on herself, which at this point is seeming highly unlikely, but if she were to work on herself and keep them in check I don't see a problem with video games. It is her only hobby.

As is things are right now I'm not interested in R without her working on herself and untill she works on herself she will remain confused and any desicions made cannot be trusted to last. Now if there is anything I can do to help guide her in the right direction to work on herself I am interested in doing that. Maybe it will happen in a timely fashion and we can work on things, maybe not but I see no harm in offering suggestions on a book to read or telling her what I think. Whats the worst that could happen shes already gone LOL


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I am sending the book with S4 when she gets him tomorrow. She is going to read it. If she applies herself and takes the time to work through each chapter in the book and think about what it is asking she will be a lot less confused as to what she wants.

If what she wants is to be single, then were already on the path to that. If she wants R I hope that she is willing to work to better herself in the process. The book clearly shows how there are options to work together to achieve a better, healthier relationship.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

It has been pointed out to me that my inner fixer has outsmarted me. Fixing is so entrenched on how I behave that I managed to convince myself offering her a book was not fixing. The offer was already made and accepted so the books being sent but I will try to be more aware of my fixing in the future.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok I called her for S4 to say goodnight. He only wanted to talk for about 45 seconds so I got on the phone to let her know he was tired and that we had been at the grandparents house for a few hours. We talked for about 8-10 minutes about what he got to do today. I wanted to ask her a question, my stepdaughter yesterday had overhead me saying I was taking S4 hiking in a few weeks and she wants to go. My W said it would be ok, so I wanted to make sure it would still be ok for me to take her even if we are not working towards R. I think my wife, after our talks the last 2 days, is starting to understand I want her in my life regardless but I do not want her at a 50% time share like I have S4. She is ok with me still taking her whichever way things go, which is great as I do miss her I just can't handle large doses of her not on her pill.

During our conversation she said she is sorry she doesn't know what she wants and said that she understands how I feel about my step daughter now. She also added in that I don't have to wait for her to figure things out. I don't know why she made it a point to say all of that, she knows I am ok with her needing time to figure things out. I am moving on with my life and if she chooses to make it work I am open to it with expectations of certain things. I made sure to tell her that again tonight, that I am working on myself and if she chooses to work on us I am on board with it but have expectations that I will openly tell her when she is ready.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Dadio did you completely give up video games in an effort to improve yourself? I know you said you played mmos did you give up single player games as well?

I have given up video games on a temporary basis until I am at a point I am comfortable with myself again, then I fully intend to pick them back up but in a healthy way. That to me is a limit amount of play with the exception of maybe the first weekend when you get a new game, then its on I gotta beat it. I do not feel it is fair to expect something of a partner I would not do myself, so I honestly don't feel right even considering expecting her to quit gaming. Cut down, play reasonably and not negatively effect other aspects of your life, that is in my mind what I should expect.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok not much to report. In at work she met me here at 6pm to pick S4 up from me. Had her hair done, nothin special just braided said her and step daughter had it done by a friend. Unlike the usual I carried S4 to her car and he got in and she buckled him but I had not said goodbye yet so I waited. She was standing in my way of saying goodbye to him like I had been waiting to talk to her so I had to lean around her and she got the hint and moved. I'm not sure what she wants me to say she is the one who doesn't know what she wants and the ball is in her court. I did talk to her for a minute after saying bye to S4 but it wasn't really about anything just answered her question about which shop I had her clutch on her car done at in jan and who to see there since its making a noise. I reassured her its just an adjustment it'll be fine but to go see them there and have then look at it. Then want to work, I said bye and she waited without getting in her car as I turned and walked off i even waited a second before Walking away to see if she had anything else to add. She just stood there. I got the feeling she's waiting on me to do something but I can't make her mind up for her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She was late calling for S4 to say goodnight but she did take the phone from him again to talk to me. We only talked for a few minutes but she wanted to let me know she got the book and she is going to read it after court. I basically told her that's fine she can read it whenever she wants I just felt it helped me and that she might benefit from reading it. She seems glad I'm talking to her again but I only intend to do so if she wants to work on things otherwise this is going back to emails and texting. How long should I expect it to take her to figure things out? I know everyone here says she wants me as plan B but i honestly believe her that she is confused. But I can't do this forever. How does the 180 fall into my new situation. I know the 180 didn't have me going over for dinner but until she figured things out should I be trying to follow it still?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok Interesting morning. got some news thats both good and bad.

The judge in family court issued a continuance, court is now aug 16th not this week. He wants us to resolve our parenting issues before we come in to resolve the support issues.

on the plus side: gives me more time to see what she is up to in regards to R without having to cause a problem in that dept by nailing her with a surprise attorney in court.

on the down side: flat out ruins my chance of taking the other job I want to try and get as it would be a TON of overtime but only for 6 months and I cant be working like that when child support is being calculated only to have the project end and go back to normal right afterwards.

I am going to start giving her some support money now as she wont make it 2 more months and its to that point. Just havnt decided how much to give her. based on her current numbers i'd owe 420 but I don't know if willingly paying more than what I'm fighting to get it down to is a good idea when it comes time to go to court. I'll probably pay the 400 as i know she needs it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok I spoke with the DA's office and they have placed a hold on my support case to let us finish our court case and establish her income in court. The lady there advised me I do not have to give her anything until then and If I do that anything I pay and document will be applied to any retroactive money but will not be applied to any future payments if they do not award retroactive money.

After listening to my friend who worked for the DA's office tell me over and over I'm going to get screwed by them if I pay without going through the da I'm surprised how easy they were to deal with. That's a lot of stress relieved right there.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok So I am working on a list of expectations right now so IF she does decide, which I think she is going to, that she wants to work on things I am ready. I've decided that if even one thing on whatever list I come up with is not ok I'm not interested in R. But I need help with the list, I'm not sure what I should put on it. Here's a quick summary of what I have so far.

1-No contact with the 2 guys she was "interested in" when she moved out, no contact with whoever she is talking to now (this she agreed to already) Minimal contact with the neighbor she slept with (his kids play with my step daughter I don't see how she wont talk to him once in a while but absolutely no hanging out with him)

2-major reduction in time spent playing video games, I don't want to ask her not to play them as its her only hobby she, doesn't have any others, and its one we share. I want to set a limit on this if shes serious about R she shouldn't argue about it. if she does, her loss.

3-a job, I already told her work full time or I'm not interested in R. This is not about money, she was depressed as a stay at home mom to the point she was unable to get a job when she tried. She is doing a lot better at the job hunt now that the pressure is on. BTW she never admitted to the depression but it was obvious, I tried to get her to go see someone but she never would

4-One day money will be joint again, she has to be on board with that idea and willing to budget and work together.

5-the truth. I want her to tell me why she left, I don't really care what she says I just want her to sit down and explain it as I've gotten no real answers yet. With this I'll expect to see remorse and her own what she did wrong. Without those things I cannot possibly believe shes sincere in wanting R. I've already owned up to my part in this, its time she did the same.

Anything I'm not thinking of? I am considering adding marriage counseling to the list but I know she absolutely hates therapists and I'm not sure it should be a requirement of mine, possibly because I'm worried that MC would be the deal breaker for her.

post up any suggested expectations I should have, I don't have a clue other than these.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Its interesting In NMMNG it says that we are attracted to people who are just as emotionally undeveloped as ourselves, not sure that's exactly the wording used but my therapist said the same thing the other day. 

After a little talk about how my W says I am without empathy and emotion my therapist suggested I talk to her and tell her how i felt about something. She said to tell my W that it bothered me that she slept with her neighbor. So today I did. 

I told her that I wanted her to know that when she told me about it and I said ti was ok that I meant I had considered it was something that might have happened and that what I meant by that was that I had thought about it and was willing to work past that if she wanted to work on us. But that the fact she slept with her neighbor bothered me and that I do care that it happened. I also told her I didn't want her thinking when I said its ok that I meant I don't care.

her response is "as far as the neighbor, I really don't even think its about what happened. It was nothing. I shouldn't have even said anything."

my thoughts: she doesn't think its a big deal she slept with her neighbor 2 weeks after moving out while she was still confused?

my response: yes you should have if you're possibly interested in working on thins I need honesty and am glad you told me.

she changes the subject to kid stuff. I think I should have left the conversation right there and not kept going with it, but I wasn't able to do that. after the kid stuff I continued

me: You complained I never show any emotion that I don't even have any. Telling you something was bothering me was not easy and you dismiss it. Thats one reason I don't express it.

her: I don't know what to say about it. It means absolutely nothing to me but I guess is a big deal for you. I can't undo what's done.

me: you know whats funny. I never noticed this before. Were exactly the same when it comes to the other person expressing how they feel. That answer is something I would say. I get it now.

her: I'm not doing this to "give you a taste of your own medicine" thats my honest response.

me: all I was looking for was telling you what was bothering me and having you acknowledge it is important to me. I'm sorry I was never able to do that for you.

that's where I left things, I get the feeling she doesn't really care about any of it. That maybe she is just lonely and realizing that her options she thought she had are not really all that great. Not once in this did she express any bit of sorrow for what had happened or what was said. she simply evaded by changing the subject, made excuses at one point during the talk about S4.

Looking at her comment about the neighbor meaning absolutely nothing I can't help but laugh at something I didn't mention about Friday night. When she told me about him she made it a point to point out that she is "not a *****" (hopefully that word wont get me in trouble round here) When she said that I couldn't help but think to myself "then why do you feel the need to say that?" (I kinda wish I had thought that out loud like I normally do LOL) Probably has something to do with it "meaning absolutely nothing" to sleep with people. 

Why is it I still miss her? Logically I should be glad shes gone, my therapist says I still love her but around here everyone says I love what I expected her to be. I don't know which one is true, but one of them is true.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo, don't express yourself emotionally to your wife - not at this time.

The advice you received from your counselor was wrong.

You set yourself up for that type of response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Is that typical of a counselors advise?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Yes, very typical.

I was told the same thing last year.

Most counselors are not experienced in the situation that you are dealing with... So they will advise you to talk, reason and "express" your true feelings.

But your wife will interpret that form of communication as: weak, clingy, and needy.

Why the 180 is the best way to deal with her because you develop the strength to produce a better you - if not for her but some other lucky lady.

You got caught in The Triangle and you never win in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

That's what I figured. Sadly I can't make her see what I just learned. Although it wasn't a good conversation I'm glad I did have it as I can now see how it feels from the other side. Back to the 180 I never should have left it. Although I don't even know at what point it's ok to stop the 180 in favor of talking but this obviously wasn't that point in time.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

180 brother. 

Don't talk relationship until she asks.

The cheating, the separation, the pending divorce does not phase you when you are in her presence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I interpreted her hug and uncertainty as her wanting to talk about it. I will just have to wait for her to say she wants to talk about it then. Back to working on me and letting her worry about her mess.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

question: How long did it take everyone else's heart to catch up with their brains in understanding your life will be better without your ex? 

I can literally sit here and list all the ways my life is improving or can improve without her but I cannot seem to make myself not be hopeful she will want to come back. I also feel like a f'n yoyo these days its starting to drive me nuts.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

It's part of process and you can't cheat it.

Raise up your self - worth enough and you will start asking yourself: Hold on, what am I really trying to save here?
I have a woman who cheated on me, isn't remorseful, and won't put any energy into rebuilding our marriage.

It took me a year. I started putting my foot down and saw the ugly reactions of my wife and I realized... This has been my relationship the entire time. Do I need that?

That was my Que... Everyone is different...

But you see Chucky, Zillard, HK, PBartender, Cegee, Northern Monkey, GP, LifeScript etc figuring things out in their own unique way. But they did it.

It takes time - but you need to start taking those small steps now; sooner or later you will be sprinting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

group yours is the only thread i have had the time to read in full, I plan on trying to find the time to read others eventually (I'm buried in suggested books and threads and spending about 5 hours a day reading). I am glad you answered I remembered at one point you were open to R in your thread but I couldn't place where or why that changed.

Some days I am glad she is gone, some days I miss her terribly. If I have to see her in person it becomes an I miss her day right then and there. If I don't see her its usually mixed. That damn hug she threw in Thursday just messed me all up on so many levels. Today was the first day I have been back to seeing who she is and not missing who she should be. Sadly she has shown no signs of changing and I doubt she ever will. Wonder how long I can keep this thought in my head before I fall back into missing her again and hoping she will change.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Picked up S4 this morning and was early so she wasn't ready. But while I was there I kept getting the idea she was waiting for me to do something. Even when I left she said bye I said bye and she stood there with a look on her face like she's waiting. I'm not doing anything about it I'm surprised I was able not to. Hard to resist the urge to try when all she had on was a robe. 

She had a job fair to go to but about 40 min after I left I got a text she had the day wrong lol was yesterday. Not sure but I think she's fishing for me to see what she's doing the rest of the day because she never goes out of her way to tell me that suddenly she has nothing to do. Going to lunch with my friend instead.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well S4 is sick, sucks to get him and have him puking all day in fact mid post typing this i had more clean up to do.
But I did text back and forth a bit with the W mostly about S4 being sick. I did take a second to toss in something about this morning. I told her I got the feeling she was waiting for me to do/say something this morning and other times and I am not going to, that if she wants to try and resolve our problems she needs to figure out what she wants and tell me. Until then I'm not going to try and win her back.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

spent the entire day with S4 being sick, he is finally feeling better. I talked to her twice today as I let S4 call her once in the afternoon since he wanted to call mom. She is really sick too, I took the time to ask how my SD was doing as she was sick and offer to take SD to a movie next week with me and S4. my SD already said she wanted to go with us to see it so I plan on taking her, W said its ok. Not sure but my offer may have been worded to be inviting them both man I'm bad at watching what I say and worse at remembering it. I might have actually used the words you can come too:banghead: I'm bad at this some days, think her being sick has me feeling bad for her.

Just something I thought was funny today, I skimmed over my whole thread and I don't think I could have come up with a better name for it, I am all over the place as to which way I'm going lol.

Also have a question, for a while there I was simply hanging the phone up after S4 said goodnight to her and not speaking to her, then we had the whole hug/dinner mess. Since then I have been trying to not be rude and taking the phone and saying hes going to bed and then we usually talk about him and my SD for a brief minute, this is fine right? Or should I go back to email and texts only? Goal I am after is her to want to R bad enough to make changes. If that's not going to be on the table I don't really care to talk to her as it just causes me unneeded pain.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Then go to written communication only.

Don't pretend to be her friend.

You aren't.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> question: How long did it take everyone else's heart to catch up with their brains in understanding your life will be better without your ex?


My brain knew years ago... My heart didn't catch on until last fall, about six months after the ILYBINILWY speech.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

You hear (often in this forum) about observing from 50,000 feet.

That mental exercise allows your logical fact-decoding left brain to balance out the intense emotional reactions of your right brain.

Pile up enough evidence with your left brain... and you can overpower crippling emotional hijacks.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo said:


> question: *How long did it take everyone else's heart to catch up with their brains in understanding your life will be better without your ex?*
> 
> I can literally sit here and list all the ways my life is improving or can improve without her but I cannot seem to make myself not be hopeful she will want to come back. I also feel like a f'n yoyo these days its starting to drive me nuts.


Ryo

That is a great question.

I caught my Ex with two of my best friends on the first night came home from leave.

I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me so I left and went home. 

I came back to confront her and I walked around back to "surprise" her because another good friend of mine was over (his car was in the driveway).

I looked through the sliding door and she was making out with both of them.

I left. Realized she was doing 4 of my buddies.

And drove over to my best friends house. he was surprised to see me. I told him what I saw. I could tell he knew.

He said I should have told her I was coming home.

I had been gone for a few months.

I asked him straight out if he was doing her. He would not answer me.

I left. I knew. In two days In was done with her. 

In three days everyone of my friends paid the price for messing with my fiancée.

Not one of their parents intervened.

I have never spoken to any of them ever again.

The key to making a decision like that is living with it.

Good Luck and stay strong.

HM64


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Ryo
> 
> That is a great question.
> 
> ...


And now he's married to a loving and faithful wife - with 3 beautiful daughters.

Life has a way of working out if you give it chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I have a few friends who were in the military it seems women like that prey on those guys it's sick. 

Thank you guys for the stories. Sucks but its nice to see how this is a normal part of the process.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

You will be fine.

Repeat after me.

"You will be fine"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

When I first got together with my W she was a smart, confident, independent, and seemed very driven. This was some of the most attractive things about her to meas far as character qualities. Once she was out of work she became depressed and then over the years lazy. Her depression lasted years, she is just barely coming out of it because she is being forced to get up and go out and accomplish something. Sadly this means that every time I see her I see the woman I fell in love with but haven't seen in years. I can easily look back at how she left and how unhappy I was and think for a moment that I am better off, hell I can even feel better off and free of the weight on my shoulders. However when I see her I see the person I fell in love with again. 

She is still playing video games and I have no way of knowing how much time is spent doing this, but I do know its not anything like it was. Every time I see her I can't help but want this special person I married back, I've been trying to get this woman back for years but I was unable to get her out of her rut and eventually fell into it with her. Its relationship ambivalence like is discussed in Too good to leave, to bad to stay. That's exactly what happened to us we sorta slowly stopped trying or caring. If these changes could stick so to speak I would love to R. I am trying to not be too hopeful but the days I see her in person I really cant help but miss her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

When I first got together with my W she was a smart, confident, independent, and seemed very driven. This was some of the most attractive things about her to meas far as character qualities. Once she was out of work she became depressed and then over the years lazy. Her depression lasted years, she is just barely coming out of it because she is being forced to get up and go out and accomplish something. Sadly this means that every time I see her I see the woman I fell in love with but haven't seen in years. I can easily look back at how she left and how unhappy I was and think for a moment that I am better off, hell I can even feel better off and free of the weight on my shoulders. However when I see her I see the person I fell in love with again. 

She is still playing video games and I have no way of knowing how much time is spent doing this, but I do know its not anything like it was. Every time I see her I can't help but want this special person I married back, I've been trying to get this woman back for years but I was unable to get her out of her rut and eventually fell into it with her. Its relationship ambivalence like is discussed in Too good to leave, to bad to stay. That's exactly what happened to us we sorta slowly stopped trying or caring. If these changes could stick so to speak I would love to R. I am trying to not be too hopeful but the days I see her in person I really cant help but miss her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

This is probably a question that can't be answered but I'm asking anyway. 

She had said she doesn't know what she wants. Been moved out 3 months now. And a little over a week ago was the hug and i dont know what i want talk. 

How much longer is a reasonable time frame to expect she might figure out if she wants R or not. I'm just curious at what point I should basically consider it hopeless essentially. She has gotten my hopes way up after last week. So basically I'm asking is at what point do I assume this was a moment of weakness or maybe even a ploy to soften me up before court and just accept it as over and her having no intentions for R.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I re-read the 180 everyday now and each day is seeming to get harder to follow it and I'm not even doing that great of a job at it anymore. I wasn't having too hard of a time before we had those talks about her not knowing what she wanted. I am going nuts now and I don't know how much longer I can manage before I ask her if she is even thinking about it at all anymore and WTF is up as she shows nothing when I see her and I think she is doing this on purpose. Why she would do that I don't know but she says things I know are to get to me, to make me want her back more. Talking about things like her waxing now is a big one, stuff like that. Stuff you just don't tell people for no reason. Its getting to me bad. That's a detail I left out of previous posts its one of the factors that made me think she is trying to get me to do something maybe to see what I would do. Its why I told her I was not going to do anything that she had to figure herself out then decide to talk to me. I was secretly hoping that she would stop doing these sorts of things, she hasn't.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Why are you talking to her about those things?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm not, she has been bringing these things up.

A week ago she brought up her c section scar, pulled her shirt up and pulled down her pants a little to show off how its improving with her lost weight, I agreed with a "yeah it is" and left it at that. This kinda stuff is starting to drive me nuts she did this as I was leaving her place by the front door.

The waxing comment was on Thursday when I picked up S4, was only there for maybe 10 minutes. She was getting him ready for me to take him and wearing only a robe while commenting on her waxing. Really made me want that robe to come off. This was cranking it up a bit over the week before. Wonder what I'll get this week on Thursday.

Not sure how to act when she does this sort of thing, I really doubt I'd get anywhere acting on it, but I'm very tempted to try, its probably done just to see my reaction. What is the best reaction I can give when she tries these tactics?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Tonight when she called and let me say goodnight to S4 I talked to him about taking him thursday to the movies to see the new monsters movie. He is very excited about this and was talking about it a lot. I asked my W if I could take my step daughter too about a week and a half ago and she said that would be fine, somewhere in there I told her she could go if she wanted. Anyway tonight she decided to start talking to S4 while he was on the phone with me, she started asking him about the movie until he asked if shed go too. Once she got on the phone first thing out of her mouth was looks like I'm going with you to the movies he wants me to go. LOL she so baited him into that like I couldn't hear her on the phone, no where else in the call did she interfere with the call. Its fine it doesn't bother me, but seriously, whats the point of this? She was already told she could come with us why does she need to get S4 to ask her to go?

After S4 got off the phone and I talked to her we talked for like 5 minutes about my step daughter and her behavior with her brother which is improving a lot from what I hear. She seems to want to stay on the phone with me, which is fine if I get to hear how my step daughter is doing since I don't see her and I get to find out what S4 has been doing all day as 4 year olds don't exactly tell you anything. She talks more and more about the negatives of the broken family, I'll take that as a good sign. hopefully she is actually spending some time thinking about this.

I'm excited for Thursdays movie. I'll get to see my step daughter and do something fun with both kids. And yes I cant help but be happy she is coming along. It'll be interesting to see what she does. Wonder if she'll make a point to keep a kid in a seat between us or maybe do things the other way around.
I know its not according to the 180 and I knew that the moment I said she could go the other week, and was thinking whoops there I go again screwing that 180 up. But it was said, the offer was made, and she is welcome to come.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Make that the last time.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Make that the last time.


the last time I without thinking say she can come along with us? I knew I shouldn't have said it the moment I said it too, just wasn't thinking. Something I'm pretty good at doing, offering before thinking.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I knew I shouldn't have said it the moment I said it too, just wasn't thinking. Something I'm pretty good at doing, offering before thinking.


So, find a way to start thinking.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I've found a pretty good way. Keep the contact short I'm ok at paying attention and thinking up to the point I start being distracted by the kids or well just about anything that distracts me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> the last time I without thinking say she can come along with us? I knew I shouldn't have said it the moment I said it too, just wasn't thinking. Something I'm pretty good at doing, offering before thinking.


The next time she tries to horn her way into your time with the kids, "I'm not ok pretending to be a happy family"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The next time she tries to horn her way into your time with the kids, "I'm not ok pretending to be a happy family"


Ooh I like this. Wonder how she'll take it. It's weird I spent like 10 minutes trying to figure out what I would say and you just make it look easy.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Tonight I talked to her after S4 for a few minutes. She talks a lot about trying to find a job. But yet most nights she calls me to have S4 say goodnight after 11pm. Tonight while talking to her she says how busy she is and I asked her what she was busy doing, she really had nothing to say. After I talked to her I got a chance to talk to my step daughter, who ratted mom out for sleeping till 11 or 12 every morning LOL hard at work looking for a job my a$$. SD had to get off the phone rather quickly after that of course, she was probably in trouble after the phone hung up too.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo, quit talking to her: "I have to go".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok I got off the phone when she got on after to talking to S4 tonight. Only talked to her for about a minute to go over what time I'd be there in the morning and then let her talk for about 30 seconds before saying I had to go. Hard for me as I'd love to talk to her but that does me no good.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok today at the movies was a lot of fun, S4 had to be taken out twice once by me once by my W but he had fun. my step daughter had a blast. I'm surprised my W and I sat together for the movie. After the movie back at her place with the kids I got time to play with my step daughter, I miss running around playing with her.

I also talked to my W a little bit. She is making progress, she is talking about going to see a therapist about her daddy issues as she calls them. This is HUGE for her, its a really big deal for her to admit she needs help and to be willing to open up to someone for the help.

She is really trying to be close with me, and I asked her what was going on with us after noticing she is making attempts to be close but has not said anything about wanting to try R or not. Her response is that she cares about me a lot and is trying to be close to me but she says she doesn't feel "that spark". I understand the feeling she is missing but I have no idea how to get it back, and I need to know how to get it back as this is her way of trying and I don't want to blow it. We are considering going out this weekend without the kids, she wants to call me later tonight after my step daughter goes to bed and talk about it. I want this and need to know how to get that "spark" back, but I haven't a clue how to do it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You still attracted to her?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Yes


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Yes


Have you ever "taken her"... just simply gone for it?

That's a formula for "sparks"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Need to get the kids outa the picture for a night. S4 bangs on the door if you leave whatever room he is in. We had 5-10 minutes alone yesterday but half of that S4 was banging on the door and step daughter was encouraging him. I did try but then the kids started up and interrupted us. After that she said she still didnt think the spark was there but the kids don't help me here.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

Was the game you played World of Warcraft?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

5 years ago is was world of Warcraft. When she was pregnant I got it for her as she was having back problems and was bored not being able to go do anything. Then we went to war hammer, rift, then guild wars 2. She is back in rift. Last 6 months together she played rift and I stayed in guild wars 2. This removing the only thing we did together as we now played 2 games. I hated rift she hated gw2 lol


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Something I forgot to throw in about tomorrow night she had previously made plans with a friend and is going to talk to that friend tonight and see what's up (friends sister is in town and she doesn't want to bail on her friend) so were possibly going out just us, possibly going out with then, or it's possible she is just going out with her friend still she said she has to ask her friend before she cancels or invites me, my W is big in not breaking plans. I was getting the feeling like I was plan B for Saturday though. Like she doesn't want me to meet her new friend. So I plan on going out with or without her. Make use of the babysitter. I let her know last night it's not a big deal if she wants to go with her friend and we can do something another night ill just go out and do something else. Must have said something wrong because she stopped texting me back.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Something I forgot to throw in about tomorrow night she had previously made plans with a friend and is going to talk to that friend tonight and see what's up (friends sister is in town and she doesn't want to bail on her friend) so were possibly going out just us, possibly going out with then, or it's possible she is just going out with her friend still she said she has to ask her friend before she cancels or invites me, my W is big in not breaking plans. I was getting the feeling like I was plan B for Saturday though. Like she doesn't want me to meet her new friend. So I plan on going out with or without her. Make use of the babysitter. I let her know last night it's not a big deal if she wants to go with her friend and we can do something another night ill just go out and do something else. Must have said something wrong because she stopped texting me back.


Stop thinking that way.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

thinking which way, that I might be Saturday night's plan B or that its not a big deal if I am? Because I can always go do something else I never get out of the house anymore since I have S4 every night I'm not at work.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> thinking which way, that I might be Saturday night's plan B or that its not a big deal if I am? Because I can always go do something else I never get out of the house anymore since I have S4 every night I'm not at work.


This way:

Must have said something wrong because she stopped texting me back.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

oh lol ok. done.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just wondering now that R is something she is considering and she is (hopefully) starting to see a therapist soon. What level of contact should I be initiating? I don't want to be texting or calling too much but is it ok at this point to call just for the sake of talking to her or do I still keep contact limited until farther into the process? I don't want to loose any progress here especially on her sudden admission she is wanting to talk to a therapist. I know this is going to be a long process but what's the next steps?

As it stands right now unless we have a need to ask a question relating to S4 we don't talk at all other than at his bed time when she makes the effort nightly to talk to me when I'm done talking to him. She also waits on the phone when she's done talking to him to talk to me. But outside of those nightly calls were not making any attempt to call or text without a reason right now.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well she is going out Saturday with her friend still. Maybe next week we'll be doing something. Was expecting her to keep her plans anyhow it's not like her to drop plans in favor of something else.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Well she is going out Saturday with her friend still. Maybe next week we'll be doing something. Was expecting her to keep her plans anyhow it's not like her to drop plans in favor of something else.


Then keep yours.

The hell with her.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

yup no clue what I'm going out to do tomorrow night but I'm going out. I need this break from work/S4 thats all I do these days. I don't like to go out for the sake of drinking though I'm too old for that and did entirely too much of it in years past. Got a buddy wants to go downtown tomorrow night maybe I'll take him up on that.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

maybe someone can shed some light on something for me.

In person she gets close, talks, spends time with me the few times I see her. and is open to conversation.

Over the phone she is distant, and makes no effort to keep a conversation going after a few minutes.

It's so different between in person or on the phone that its almost like talking to 2 different people.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> maybe someone can shed some light on something for me.
> 
> In person she gets close, talks, spends time with me the few times I see her. and is open to conversation.
> 
> ...


Start hanging up.

Don't let her treat you that way.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Why are you lingering on the phone? If nothing needs to be said, hang up. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well went out last night, went out by myself and saw the first half of a concert, then met up with a friend and some other people for the rest of the night. Can't say I had fun but it was a nice break. I spent most of the night wondering what she was up to, she was out with her friends only a few blocks away. Almost sent her a text late last night after a lot of beers, thankfully my buddy talked me out of it.

Stopped by a tattoo parlor and found my old tattoo guy so I'm going in next week to get some more done on my unfinished tattoo I've had for years (the money was an issue so I never was able to finish it after I got married)


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok we all know Sunday is me weak day, I tend to really miss my family as I return S4 on sunday, see my step daughter for about a minute and my W for a minute. I almost asked her to put the D on hold today, glad I didn't because she needs to ask me to do that.

On a good note (for me anyway) She had a TERRIBLE day and I didn't try and fix any of it, of course I might have had she called me earlier in the day. She stayed out till 5am with her friend she went with sat night, her friend wouldnt give up her car keys (my W woulda drove home drunk) so she got another friend to take her home. Once home she realized she didn't have a key to get inside so she calls a locksmith and has them get her inside and put on new locks, then her friend who she was out with (her neighbor) never came home so my W is without a car key. She spends $500 at the dealer to get a new key that matches her car LOL that is dumb. I could have brought S4 to her no problem had she asked and her friend would have been home with her keys eventually. My W is normally an extremely smart person, lately though that is not the case. I cannot help but think the stress and her sudden fun freedom are taking their toll on her. I feel bad for her but there is nothing I can do, she has to learn this lesson herself.

Wednesday is mediation she has agreed to base child support on her earning $12 an hour instead of what she really makes as she feels $12/HR is a fair wage for her. I was thinking 12-15 per hour is what I consider fair for her. My problem with accepting this is that it leaves us going to court to fight over 1 holiday. that is likely to piss the judge off. I am thinking I may be better off going to court to fight about $ and 1 holiday instead. What do you guys think? My only problem with christmas is I will not accept that S4 has to open presents at one persons house before christmas morning which is before santa delivers them! I offered to split the holiday at just about any time after christmas morning so we both get him that day. She wont accept that.

Then again if I go into court only fighting about 1 holiday and I have printed my emails offering christmas be split many ways (i think i offered 5 or 6 different ways to split it) I even offered to divide it any way she wanted as long as it met my one term - that he opens gifts at both houses after santa delivers them, even if it was on the 26th I'd take that. Maybe with this if thats all were in court for the judge will be mad at her and not at me for this being an issue.

So what to do at mediation, accept her support calculation (its the lowest hourly wage I was ok with her using as her income and she didn't know that ahead of time)
or don't accept it and go to court so as to avoid only going to court over christmas. I won't budge on my christmas issue and even if I was ok with it I won't go out of my way to be divorced and done when she is still thinking about trying.

I also offered to grab a box of fireworks and get together with her on the 4th so the kids can have the day together, she is unsure she wants to. I'm not sure why she won't say yes to this. I get S4 this year on the 4th, so I figured she would feel she was missing out otherwise.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Go to court and push for $15.00/hour


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Need to know where to go from here.

I talked to her for a little while tonight and we discussed mediation, and R. as far as mediation she says she does not want to go to a hearing and wants this settled Wednesday in mediation. Once we were talking about R she said she has to work on her issues first and then on us and that she does not expect me to wait around. I am glad she has finally decided to work on her issues, we both needed to. I suggested she take time to consider putting the D on hold, I am more than willing to pay temp child support and slowly work towards R. I am worried she may be only having these talks to soften me up for mediation/court as she didn't seem to like the idea of pausing the D and letting it sit as is to give her time. I get the feeling when talking to her that R is a real possibility and that it is something she wants to do but is not ready to try yet. But I can't help but have the suspicion that its just a trick to make me weak in court.

I am considering calling her tomorrow and telling her I want to put the D on hold to see what she says. If we were to do that we have to do it before 2pm tomorrow in order to get mediation canceled without penalty. The way I figure it is, if she is even remotely considering R seriously the offer to put the D on hold AND receive child support is something not to pass up. Removes a lot of stress having to deal with the D and she gets her money as if we went to court. Plus she can go down and set a court date at any time she wants to resume the D we don't have to start it all over again. My marriage means a lot to me, I do not want to get divorced if R is something that may happen. There is also no benefit to her going along with this if she is just trying to soften me up only benefit is if she is considering R. What do you guys think?

Also her and my step daughter are coming over on the 4th so we can do fireworks, bbq, and swimming with the kids together. I don't want to keep them apart for things like this and as long as R is possibly on the table I'll take every opportunity I get to get us all together.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

You're contradicting yourself.

You OBSERVED it annoyed her to talk about putting the divorce on hold, but you want to suggest it anyway?

Why do you want to treat yourself so badly?

Putting divorce on hold and paying her to leave you FIRMLY establishes you as Plan B.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

It just makes no sense to me how she could be considering working towards R yet still want a D. I fully understand that D is not the end if we wanted we could remarry later, however I am completely against D if we are talking R, just goes against my beliefs on the subject.

You are right though it did annoy her to talk about putting it on hold, her reasons for that were she wants it over with so she doesn't have to worry about it anymore.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> It just makes no sense to me how she could be considering working towards R yet still want a D. I fully understand that D is not the end if we wanted we could remarry later, however I am completely against D if we are talking R, just goes against my beliefs on the subject.
> 
> You are right though it did annoy her to talk about putting it on hold, her reasons for that were she wants it over with so she doesn't have to worry about it anymore.


You said it yourself, she could be lying.

She had a PHYSICAL reaction when you mentioned slowing down the process.

For it to be real, it MUST be her idea.

She's a big girl.

Give her room to make that choice - which means, full speed ahead (for now).


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

sadly I couldn't see her physical reaction, was over the phone but I got a slight hint of an annoyed/stressed sign followed by her saying she just wants it done so its one less problem she has hanging over her. She really did sounds stressed out about it all too.

I'm not looking forward to mediation at all because I don't plan on budging on the things I want. $15/hour (I'll come down and meet her in the middle at 13.50) for her pay in calculating support and I will not ever have a year I don't see my son on Christmas day to open gifts this part I am firm on.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> sadly I couldn't see her physical reaction, was over the phone but I got a slight hint of an annoyed/stressed sign followed by her saying she just wants it done so its one less problem she has hanging over her. She really did sounds stressed out about it all too.
> 
> I'm not looking forward to mediation at all because I don't plan on budging on the things I want. $15/hour (I'll come down and meet her in the middle at 13.50) for her pay in calculating support and I will not ever have a year I don't see my son on Christmas day to open gifts this part I am firm on.


Keep in mind, the firmer you are, the more attractive you are.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Ryo said:


> maybe someone can shed some light on something for me.
> 
> In person she gets close, talks, spends time with me the few times I see her. and is open to conversation.
> 
> ...


My x does some of this weird stuff . Where ever your at l know , can't help but scratch your head non the less.
Hey maybe she's had someone there when there's been ph calls , sounds like it.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

This isn't fun but it helps a lot in the weak moments.
Remember , she literally abused you guys , did nothing about anything herself- AT ALL. , made it worse in fact. This is really common you know yet they still somehow find ways of turning it all around to make you feel guilty for not keeping "them" happy- it fkg bs!
So she has the gawl to blame you for it all , does the other stuff she's done plus, insults you to the core the way she did with her reasons , tries to sneak of with a truck while your at work and leaves.

Man , she needs to work like a [email protected] after what she's done to you, if she's ever getting near you again sorry.
Not you all waiting and watching and wondering , really. You've gotta listen to these guys , man , you can't take that fkg bs.
I'm sorry to put it like that but you need to start appreciating just what this womens done to you!


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I did not hear the conversation, but the way you wrote the paragraph it sounds more like you are talking reconciliation and she just didn't dismiss it outright. She did say, I need to work on me first. This buys her time, this does not sound like a woman that wants to reconcile, but a woman who doesn't want to hurt your feelings. My Ex was tremendous at this tactic. I was guilty of wanting the relationship to work so bad, that I saw and heard what I wanted to hear. She sugar coated things in an effort to spare my feelings, when it fact it gave me false hope and did more damage in the long run. To put the divorce on hold is your decision, but realize that you open yourself up to a long lingering pain that only delays the inevitable.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Stay the course Rio. Waiting for reconciliation is a recipe for disaster. You need to be strong and push the divorce. She has to wake up from her fog and win YOU back if it is going to happen at all. Waiting is weak and will push her further away. 

Full steam ahead.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo, 

Psychological Warfare.

The enemy here is yourself. She is setting you free.

Break the chains. Show her that you are capable of moving on without her.

Raise your attraction levels to new heights.

The next woman will make herself available in the next 10 minutes when you are ready.

And maybe, your wife will make her presence known.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

You know I could see my W acting this way to "not say anything to hurt me" she is like that. Plays the cold hearted b!tch to others well but isn't able to do that with me. You guys are right I am just letting my wanting R get in my way. Also as far as blaming me for her not being happy, she is actually down to accepting the fact that she has personal problems that caused much of this. I am very proud of her for this it's a huge step she is no longer saying you did or didn't do this and is now saying she didn't do things correctly and that she needs professional help. I am hopeful still that she means it all but who knows. Despite how she's treated me I have already forgiven her, I only want her to finish working on herself then hopefully work on us. I want my wife and family back more than anything. Thanks guys. Needed that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you want her back more than anything, don't be nice.

That includes not paying for a divorce you don't want.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If you want her back more than anything, don't be nice.
> 
> That includes not paying for a divorce you don't want.


Thats something I have a hard time with. no more mr nice guy has helped me see that being nice is a bad thing but it hasn't put a dent in the fact that I truly am too nice. I'm an overly nice person who will do anything for you if I like you.

And I want my W back more than anything, provided she is really working on herself which appears to be the case. She is spending too much time having fun but she has made noticable improvements on herself and it only makes me want her more. She is more the woman I married today than she has been in years.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Thats something I have a hard time with. no more mr nice guy has helped me see that being nice is a bad thing but it hasn't put a dent in the fact that I truly am too nice. I'm an overly nice person who will do anything for you if I like you.
> 
> And I want my W back more than anything, provided she is really working on herself which appears to be the case. She is spending too much time having fun but she has made noticable improvements on herself and it only makes me want her more. She is more the woman I married today than she has been in years.


If that's true, don't hold up the divorce.

But, don't move it either.

If she gets impatient, simply tell her you're not paying for a divorce you don't want.

Leave it at that.

Absolutely work on raising your sex rank. That includes socializing with women. There are plenty that will go along with a "no physical stuff" boundary and just have fun with it.

I have their numbers


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

If we agree to things tomorrow were divorced within 2 weeks. no more needs to be done it just needs a judges approval at that point. I don't want that to happen.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> If we agree to things tomorrow were divorced within 2 weeks. no more needs to be done it just needs a judges approval at that point. I don't want that to happen.


Then make sure you don't agree


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I can almost guarantee the the mediator pushes her to take my christmas suggestion as its straight out of a friends mediation in his custody case. And I bet she comes up to $15 an hour on her pay for calculating support to be done and is just pissed about it lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I can almost guarantee the the mediator pushes her to take my christmas suggestion as its straight out of a friends mediation in his custody case. And I bet she comes up to $15 an hour on her pay for calculating support to be done and is just pissed about it lol


Those are the only two issues?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

thats it she has caved on everything else


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

oh and she doesnt like the fact I wrote in our birthdays are optional to have S4 with 7 days notice. I cant commit to a random day of the week having him that isnt a holiday due to work so I wrote it in as optional.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> thats it she has caved on everything else


Sounds like she really wants out.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

My W isn't a negotiator she is impatient and will cave to get something over with. I'm using that against her in negotiations.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just left IC and my therapist says I should tell her that I want to know if she is done with us or not. That I expect if were not done that she is not seeing anyone and we can leave it at that for now but that I need to stop torturing myself waiting. 

What do you guys think? Should I tell her she needs to at least make that level of decision? All I would expect is that she doesn't see anyone else and continues to work on herself for the time being, but I can't keep things the way they have been the last few weeks I just can't keep doing this without getting that much from her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Just left IC and my therapist says I should tell her that I want to know if she is done with us or not. That I expect if were not done that she is not seeing anyone and we can leave it at that for now but that I need to stop torturing myself waiting.
> 
> What do you guys think? Should I tell her she needs to at least make that level of decision? All I would expect is that she doesn't see anyone else and continues to work on herself for the time being, but I can't keep things the way they have been the last few weeks I just can't keep doing this without getting that much from her.


Here's the thing.

You already know her answer - UNLESS you act like you are moving on.

If you need to ask to allow her to hurt you one last time?

No one here will stop you.

But, you must know it's not the most effective way of making her feel the loss of the relationship.

And, making her feel that loss is what you need.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

good point, after Thursday I'm going back to not bothering to talk to her unless I have to. It worked so much better that way.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just got done negotiating at mediation she caved on Christmas an came up to $13 an hour on her pay an is pissed with me for fighting her. I feel terrible we came to an agreement because we're done now. She just left to go find a bathroom looks like she's going to go cry about this while the mediator writes things up. I don't want to be done.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Just got done negotiating at mediation she caved on Christmas an came up to $13 an hour on her pay an is pissed with me for fighting her. I feel terrible we came to an agreement because we're done now. She just left to go find a bathroom looks like she's going to go cry about this while the mediator writes things up. I don't want to be done.


Don't show it.

Cool, firm, dispassionate


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I already blew that. She knows I didn't want to be done. She doesn't believe me that I care about her she feels that I have no emotional ability to care about anyone and that's one of her issues with trying. No idea how to prove I do care.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Well I already blew that. She knows I didn't want to be done. She doesn't believe me that I care about her she feels that I have no emotional ability to care about anyone and that's one of her issues with trying. No idea how to prove I do care.


Chasing her won't do it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I'm taking home out agreement to sign next week. Going to run it by my attorney first then bring it back in. Paying 270 a month in support but I already see one problem there's no language in it about back support which I won't pay because I consider her fully furnished apartment worth a lot.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I figured that after coming to an agreement on the D she would be done being nice to me, I was starting to think she was leading me on to keep me nice for court. We went to lunch after mediation and she was just as close and indecisive as ever. When we left she gave me a hug and told me flat out "I don't know what to do". So I told her she needs to figure that out and that all I need from her is for her to decide that we are going to work on things and not see other people, otherwise I can't continue doing this. If I don't get that tomorrow I'm done no more inviting her anywhere, but I plan on still inviting my step daughter places. Now that today is over I am going to go have a drink and get some sleep, 4 1/2 hours of sleep in 2 days just isn't cutting it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Well I figured that after coming to an agreement on the D she would be done being nice to me, I was starting to think she was leading me on to keep me nice for court. We went to lunch after mediation and she was just as close and indecisive as ever. When we left she gave me a hug and told me flat out "I don't know what to do". So I told her she needs to figure that out and that all I need from her is for her to decide that we are going to work on things and not see other people, otherwise I can't continue doing this. If I don't get that tomorrow I'm done no more inviting her anywhere, but I plan on still inviting my step daughter places. Now that today is over I am going to go have a drink and get some sleep, 4 1/2 hours of sleep in 2 days just isn't cutting it.


Giving her the power to decide the future isn't leading.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok things are interesting now.

Yesterday she came over with my step daughter for 4th of july. We went swimming, well me and the kids did. my roommate and her son were there too. Later my roommate's other son and his fiance came over also. About that time my W grabbed step daughter told her they were leaving and out the door they went. I gave her a minute then went out front to talk to her to ask if my step daughter could stay. She felt she didn't belong here and that everyone was judging her. She agreed to let SD stay and then after a long talk I took her hand and told her we were going inside, surprisingly she came along. We had a great night (BBQ, fireworks, movie) and she just left at 9am. I also am keeping my SD for the day instead of her going to her usual babysitters. I'm not sure where this leaves us. She still says she doesn't know what she wants, but she is acting less and less like someone who wants to be done.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> ok things are interesting now.
> 
> Yesterday she came over with my step daughter for 4th of july. We went swimming, well me and the kids did. my roommate and her son were there too. Later my roommate's other son and his fiance came over also. About that time my W grabbed step daughter told her they were leaving and out the door they went. I gave her a minute then went out front to talk to her to ask if my step daughter could stay. She felt she didn't belong here and that everyone was judging her. She agreed to let SD stay and then after a long talk I took her hand and told her we were going inside, surprisingly she came along. We had a great night (BBQ, fireworks, movie) and she just left at 9am. I also am keeping my SD for the day instead of her going to her usual babysitters. I'm not sure where this leaves us. She still says she doesn't know what she wants, but she is acting less and less like someone who wants to be done.


This is called leadership.

You talk and explain much much less.

You DO more.

This was a fitness test for attention - an attempt to get you to panic and grovel.

You were awesome.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

until you mentioned it I never noticed it could be a fitness test. Think I need to read that thread again. Going over to her place tonight, she asked me to bring SD home tonight. 

Whats next? I am still without her saying she wants R, she still has not discussed her role in things specifically but has admitted she had just as big of a role in our problems as I had. I feel like I am on the right track as long as I don't miss a step. I can stall the D papers for a couple weeks at most if I want to, maybe that would be long enough to get her to want to drop the D. Or I could proceed with the D, its pretty good terms for me and see where we end up. personally I value my marriage and would like to avoid D/remarriage even if its just a piece of paper to some people, but am not sure that's the best move.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

You are sleeping with a woman?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Suspecting said:


> You are sleeping with a woman?


took me a second to realize what you were asking. yes we slept together last night when she stayed. I am not involved with anyone else and have had no interest in anyone else.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

No you told you have a female roommate. What is your wife thinking about this?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

my female room mate is an older lady, she is my moms best friend I grew up with her older kids. My wife is not threatened.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> took me a second to realize what you were asking. yes we slept together last night when she stayed. I am not involved with anyone else and have had no interest in anyone else.


Do that as often as she offers.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

That I will have no problem with. She played not interested but she watched the movie with me in her underwear for a reason. My exercising is paying off I'm in way better shape now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> That I will have no problem with. She played not interested but she watched the movie with me in her underwear for a reason. My exercising is paying off I'm in way better shape now.


During your relationship how often did you take her?

I mean, like ravish... you cannot get enough.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

In the beginning all the time. Once S4 was born we had an issue. He slept in our bed until he was 3 1/2. Then in his own bed next to ours until she moved out. Caused a big problem in bed. We had no sex life for 4 years. In fact last night could have been amazing but we had to keep it down as I rent one really really big room. It's as big as an entire 1 bedroom apartment but the kids were sleeping in the bedroom section.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> In the beginning all the time. Once S4 was born we had an issue. He slept in our bed until he was 3 1/2. Then in his own bed next to ours until she moved out. Caused a big problem in bed. We had no sex life for 4 years. In fact last night could have been amazing but we had to keep it down as I rent one really really big room. It's as big as an entire 1 bedroom apartment but the kids were sleeping in the bedroom section.


Anyone reading this should "not be ok" with anything similar.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I was ok with it at first, working 6 days a week not having to wake up as often to help with the nursing of a newborn was good. But it never ended. He was terrified to sleep out of our bed and she wouldn't wait it out. I tried twice when he was 6 months to get him into a crib and after 5-8 hours of screaming I gave up. Over the years I tried a number of times, usually with a lot of opposition from her that I was being cruel. Eventually (he was 3 1/2) I just took him upstairs and put him to bed without her noticing, a little medicine to knock him out for the first night. By that time he was an avoidance tool and moving him to his own room was flat out not ok with her. Sure enough as soon as she had her own apartment he was in his sisters room.

edit: I will never again let a kid in my bed like that, they are too much work to get them out. Although I have no plans on having another so it probably wont be a problem.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I was ok with it at first, working 6 days a week not having to wake up as often to help with the nursing of a newborn was good. But it never ended. He was terrified to sleep out of our bed and she wouldn't wait it out. I tried twice when he was 6 months to get him into a crib and after 5-8 hours of screaming I gave up. Over the years I tried a number of times, usually with a lot of opposition from her that I was being cruel. Eventually (he was 3 1/2) I just took him upstairs and put him to bed without her noticing, a little medicine to knock him out for the first night. By that time he was an avoidance tool and moving him to his own room was flat out not ok with her. Sure enough as soon as she had her own apartment he was in his sisters room.


Of course.

Watch what they do, not what they say.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Of course.
> 
> Watch what they do, not what they say.


This is something new to me, I've always listened to what people say then wondered why what they do is different. I still do this but I am learning. Observation isn't my strong point, so now I have been making it a point to think ahead and decide when to make it a point to watch everything. I can focus on that for a short time before I forget to observe and go back to normal me. It's one of those ADD things, my IC says I do it a lot in conversation too, I bounce my attention around all over the place.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> This is something new to me, I've always listened to what people say then wondered why what they do is different. I still do this but I am learning. Observation isn't my strong point, so now I have been making it a point to think ahead and decide when to make it a point to watch everything. I can focus on that for a short time before I forget to observe and go back to normal me. It's one of those ADD things, my IC says I do it a lot in conversation too, I bounce my attention around all over the place.


Staying @50,000 feet and observing is a powerful tool.

Let's say you have a wayward wife who says over and over how much she misses you and wants to return.

Yet, you see her passing up time that could be spent with you and renewing her lease on her apartment for an additional year.

Do you go with what you hear - or what you see?

Going with what you see gives great happiness - as you're much less likely to be let down.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

That is why I am so hopeful that R is in my future. She may say she doesn't know what she wants but more and more she acts differently. Without you guys, even if I haven't been great at always taking the advise, but without it I wouldn't stand a chance. No clue whats in store for us next but things are looking up. Although I am still without a commitment to not see other people or even to work on our relationship, should I push this or just watch her actions and see where we go? She isn't seeing anyone but I know there's someone she has been talking too, its unknown if that is still the case, but I assume it is because I haven't heard otherwise.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> That is why I am so hopeful that R is in my future. She may say she doesn't know what she wants but more and more she acts differently. Without you guys, even if I haven't been great at always taking the advise, but without it I wouldn't stand a chance. No clue whats in store for us next but things are looking up. Although I am still without a commitment to not see other people or even to work on our relationship, should I push this or just watch her actions and see where we go? She isn't seeing anyone but I know there's someone she has been talking too, its unknown if that is still the case, but I assume it is because I haven't heard otherwise.


Have you read Anthony DeMello's "Awareness"?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

no i will google it. Do I need to read that today or can it wait a few days?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> no i will google it. Do I need to read that today or can it wait a few days?


http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

Once you've discovered the power of observation, this is a good one to read.

Take your time.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'll start reading it tomorrow, Have a 3 hour session at the tattoo parlor I can multi task =)


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I had a great day today I had my step daughter all day. the W is having babysitter trouble so since they were here this morning I went ahead and kept her for the day. We went swimming, then shopping (she only had a bathing suit for clothes so I bought her an entire outfit) got lunch and went for ice cream. Was a great day she had a lot of fun. Was a good reminder of what I'm trying to get back into with my SD and her behavior though, she wasn't bad but I just don't have enough patience for her sometimes. Might have a lot to do with the fact I only got a few hours of sleep again though.

Dropped SD off after my W got off of work. She had us come in but quickly was hinting it was time to go, I asked her if she would like to do something tomorrow night and she says "No I'll see you on Sunday when I pick him up, I think I'm confusing the kids." She also made a comment that last night was just sex and not to read too much into it. Yesterday she was upset she didn't feel like she belonged, she was even happy to snuggle up on the couch last night. Today total opposite had an ok get out of my apartment thanks for watching the kid, see ya later feeling to it. 

You know what I just realized. This is pretty much a weekly cycle. Thursday she misses me, hasn't seen me all week and hasn't been to work. Friday she goes to work, has just seen me on Thursday and is indifferent. Sunday goes either way but I only see her for like 2 minutes on Sundays since she picks S4 up from my work at my start time.


Oh and something I forgot about yesterday that's important. When talking outside before I got her to come back in and stay for the fireworks she made a comment. "It sucks I can't find a single job here but my sister could have me a job in minutes up where she lives." (thats north dakota) she continues on by saying "but I can't take a job up there because I'll loose S4, you may get everything you want. you may get me to leave him behind because I can't make it here on my own, you'll get everything you want." after that she went into a rant about me being selfish and uncaring. So obviously she is considering that as a back up plan. It's not what I want, I want my family back as a whole, but I'd take S4 full time as a viable alternative. No idea how I'd manage it though with my work schedule 6pm-2am or later. 

adding this in, I have spent the last hour or so thinking about this. If it comes to her leaving for north dakota I'm going to let S4 go with her. We are both good parents but the deciding factor is who is available to help us. Her sister and brother-in-law are great. My family.. well my dad is an abusive alcoholic and my mom comes with my dad so I've got nothing. *I will not let her know this though*, if she knew this she'd be gone so fast. But if it comes to her leaving and thinking shes loosing him I know she has given it her best at that point, and he will be better off up there.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

Why are you allowing her to speak to you that way?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I didn't just let her and leave it. I will always let her finish what she is saying even if its wrong. but after that we talked a lot and straightened that out. At the end of that conversation things between us were great. She's an emotional wreck these days, she has no good friends, none of her family live here. I bet you she has no one else to talk to that she is comfortable with and letting her rant like that gives me my only in as to what's going on in her head she has a hell of a poker face when she isn't upset. After that rant I got on her about how she was wrong and that is bs that I want her to fail and leave as its not good for anyone especially S4. It was a kind of. Like I just let her take the time to say a the things she was thinking then I went one at a time down the list and defended myself on some of them. Then she apologized for saying what she said. That's when I took her back inside yesterday.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you allow her to rip you from stem to stern and blame you for everything, she notices - and loses respect for you.

Do not allow this.

It's enabling.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

even if I defended myself on the issues immediately after she was done talking? I thought I walked away from that conversation well. She not only came back inside but stayed the night and had a great time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> even if I defended myself on the issues immediately after she was done talking? I thought I walked away from that conversation well. She not only came back inside but stayed the night and had a great time.


NO DEFENSE... 

Listen to me.

"I don't like where this conversation is headed"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

so if you don't defend yourself and tell her she is wrong how does she ever know what your side of it is? 
I understand that I enabled her to act that way by staying in the conversation, but isn't that for the better if the conversation accomplishes something and they own up to and apologize for their behavior?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Who is she out with tonight?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

she is at work tonight. works fri-sat nights


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> so if you don't defend yourself and tell her she is wrong how does she ever know what your side of it is?
> I understand that I enabled her to act that way by staying in the conversation, but isn't that for the better if the conversation accomplishes something and they own up to and apologize for their behavior?


That's how you read her words?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

her words alone would be insulting. Thing is I didn't get the feeling she was saying them at me. hard to explain. You know when someone just goes on a rant totally unaware they are in a conversation and just off they go not even talking TO you anymore? it was like that. she was sitting in the seat of her car, legs folded talking to me then she just broke down. Looking down at her legs went off about everything posted above (possible having to move, no job, I'm selfish....) never looking up, just dumping it. Once she was done I quickly told her that it was BS I'm not selfish, I don't want her to fail and I don't want her to leave. I told her if she would stop and look at what I do she'd see that. After a bit of silence where I was about to get up and go inside she apologized and said she is just scared and stressed. 

So I took it at that untill I realized that the fact she is scared of that possible outcome (leaving S4 behind and moving) means that she has considered it a real possibility. Which means I must consider it a real possibility now too. I think it's my worst case outcome of things too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> her words alone would be insulting. Thing is I didn't get the feeling she was saying them at me. hard to explain. You know when someone just goes on a rant totally unaware they are in a conversation and just off they go not even talking TO you anymore? it was like that. she was sitting in the seat of her car, legs folded talking to me then she just broke down. Looking down at her legs went off about everything posted above (possible having to move, no job, I'm selfish....) never looking up, just dumping it. Once she was done I quickly told her that it was BS I'm not selfish, I don't want her to fail and I don't want her to leave. I told her if she would stop and look at what I do she'd see that. After a bit of silence where I was about to get up and go inside she apologized and said she is just scared and stressed.
> 
> So I took it at that untill I realized that the fact she is scared of that possible outcome (leaving S4 behind and moving) means that she has considered it a real possibility. Which means I must consider it a real possibility now too. I think it's my worst case outcome of things too.


When she starts confessing your sins, the response is, "I don't like where this conversation is heading"

To absorb those verbal blows implies agreement to her.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

I wonder if this story will end up just like Regroup's.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

When I talked to her last night after saying good night to S4 we talked briefly about insurance and I reminded her that if she really wants to go see a therapist she should do so before she is off my insurance as the first 5 visits are free. She replied she has no one to watch her kid when she goes so I offered if her appointments are made on the day I pick up S4 (Thursdays) to watch my step daughter for her to go to counseling and figure her issues out. No idea if it will do any good or if she will even take me up on it. If she does we both win, I have a reason to not be there at 9am which is very early for me with my work schedule, I can come later at whatever time of day her appointment is that'll be nice, more sleep. I can also hang out with my step daughter.

Going to be busy at work this week so I probably wont be posting much, I probably wont be talking to her much either just a few minutes each night at most.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ryo said:


> when i talked to her last night after saying good night to s4 we talked briefly about insurance and i reminded her that if she really wants to go see a therapist she should do so before she is off my insurance as the first 5 visits are free. She replied she has no one to watch her kid when she goes so i offered if her appointments are made on the day i pick up s4 (thursdays) to watch my step daughter for her to go to counseling and figure her issues out.


Stop.... Fixing..... Today!


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I thought doing things for her was ok if they are not #3's.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I thought doing things for her was ok if they are not #3's.


This has covert contract written all over it.

Only if she asks you do you decide: Yes or No
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Yes there are some things I would like to see happen out of it but even if they don't happen it's still a win for me picking up S4 later in the day without it being about my schedule is a win all by itself. I've been working till 5am lately getting him at 9am is going to be hard. Last 2 weeks I've cheated used the movies one week to get him later and the fact she was coming over on the 4th to get her to bring him later so I could sleep. It's true however that part of me wants to do this in order for her to resolve her issues and possibly seek R. I'm not sure how which is the more motivating factor. Maybe I'm justifying it to myself but if I am damn am I good at it because my thought process was how can I help. Will I benefit. And then I offered once I found a benefit to me in it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

a few hours later... damn it your right. why I do not see these things easily is beyond me. 

well only worked 8 1/2 hours today so I am in need of a beer and not going to worry or think about any of this crap for the rest of the night.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I thought doing things for her was ok if they are not #3's.


It is no longer your responsibility to remind her of her responsibilities.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> a few hours later... damn it your right. why I do not see these things easily is beyond me.


It takes time Ryo. You're deprogramming what you're accustomed to doing. 

Many of us who land here are big-time fixers; just like you. We go about fixing everyone's elses problems and neglect the most important person.

When you go about offering your help and you don't receive your reward ... you'll grow resentful.

Only if she asks... and you're up for it.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm pretty late to the thread here, but I have some observations that I would like to make.


When your wife moved out, she clearly was having an EA with at least one player in her fantasy game. She may have had an EA/PA with a coworker at the Pizza place she works at. Has this ever been discussed or have you ever just got pissed over the fact that she cheated on you?
She admitted to sleeping with a neighbor of hers 2 weeks after separation. She admitted it to you, but she said it meant nothing and clearly it didn't bother her. Do you seriously believe this happened only once and that he was the only one?
Several pages back, you stated that your wife waxed herself ans was in a bathrobe. I assume she waxed her pubic region. At the time the idea of reconciling was very much in doubt (if I recall correctly). So who did she wax herself for? I don't recall women normally doing something like this for themselves.
I see an awful lot of manipulation from your wife. It seems like everytime you start pulling away and trying to implement the 180, she reels you right back in. Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure that the only reason why she does that is because you are her fallback plan.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Plan 9:

We have discussed the EA/PA issue a few times. She clearly was having an ea on some level. I believe her that she was only starting to have feelings for this online friend and that's all that there was to it. she recently told me more about it, without being asked too. She told me she realized one night she was more interested in him than me and that was kind of her final sign it was time to go. As far as the pizza place goes there may be someone there. Or it may just be the fact I know her boss (female) is bashing me and talking to her about not getting back together. I've seen how her boss looks at me I know that's what she thinks. Also I can tell someones got her ear there as our pattern is Thursday things are great Friday she goes to work and its **** between us again. I am thinking of bringing this up actually as its starting to piss me off.

The neighbor has been talked about a few times, hes an issue for me but she doesn't seem to think he is a big deal because he was once and didn't matter to her. I can see my wife really thinking this way as sleeping with someone to her is not a big deal but when/if we get to talking seriously about R he is on my list of things to discuss.

the waxing thing I'm not sure on. I am not sure what to think of this. you are right most women would only do this for someone else. I could see her trying to do it again to prove to herself she is out on her own and can do anything. She failed to finish the job on a few waxing attempts before. I have no way of knowing for sure so I'll just keep it in mind and try to remember to observe for more things like this.

manipulation... I can see that its there. I've never known her to be manipulative more than the next person, so for now I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. 

I know your probably thinking I'm nuts as I give her too much leeway on this issues. Thing is she has always been very honest. I have learned her body language when she is telling me a truth she is not happy about and when she is lying or neglecting to mention something. When I remember to pay attention (like when I ask and she answers) I can clearly see these things. I have caught her in a few lies in the last few months but most things she voluntarily tells me without my asking. She used to open up and just tell me everything, she is starting to do this again. She really does not have anyone to talk to and I want to know whats going on in her thought process so I am open to listening as long as I think R is possible.

All the things listed are things I can or have forgiven her for and won't let stand in the way of R. I just might need a few things from her, like no contact with a few of them.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Regroup.

is there a reason why only if she asks? I do need to get better about spotting those #3's they sneak in so easily but outside of the #3's whats the harm in offering? I enjoy helping other people, that in itself makes it a selfish act, I help my friends with stuff all the time and I like it because I feel good doing it. Is it different with her vs other people in my life? I don't think I can deprogram my fixer, I think I can get a handle on #3's though.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If she asks, then she'll appreciate what you do.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

so simple yet makes perfect sense. thanks conrad.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

whats my next move at this point? Do I just wait to see if she asks for us to do anything together, brings up R or do I act? The things we have done in the last few weeks, all by my inviting her, have worked out well for me, but I am wondering if it's time to pull back and let her miss what we have been having these last few weeks, something I will have a hard time doing without conscious effort. She keeps talking about being focused on finding a job and not wanting to think about us until she has that done. I am kind of tired of the I'm confused but I don't have time to think about things line it makes no sense (no work = tons of time to think) I have started to wonder if this is an issue I should mention or if I should not wait and just act (doing what I don't know).

I will see her Thursday when I pick up S4, I will be too busy tonight to talk to her (busy night at work tonight I got a lot going on might even be an all nighter) so that will be 2 nights in a row we haven't talked at all.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you have anything you'd like to start doing for you?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I have started doing a number of things for me.

I work out daily (had to take the last week off I injured myself)

I just started getting my 6 year old tattoo outline shaded in. seen here, here it is shaded in.

working on getting my dvd collection digital on a new hard drive I ordered 2 months ago. thats a slow process.

trying to organize my music collection like getting all the album artwork and deleting the songs I don't like so it will fit on my phone.

that's about it for right now, spending a lot of time reading the books everyone here has suggested. I am a very slow reader and I think I should read these all twice lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What things did you give up because she didn't like them?

Friends?

Hobbies?

Interests?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

things I gave up:

going out to the bar a lot, excessive drinking, smoking (none of these are we going to go back to)

gave up finishing my tattoo, back at that again she hates my tattoo.

I used to hang out with friends a lot, I stopped when we were together because we never found anyone we both enjoyed hanging out with. I've gone out a few times but haven't had much fun. My work and custody schedule get in the way of this.

I didn't have very many healthy hobbies before.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> things I gave up:
> 
> going out to the bar a lot, excessive drinking, smoking (none of these are we going to go back to)
> 
> ...


There are any number of things that a guy with your attention to detail would find rewarding.

I would think wood refinishing would be one... anything that requires that sort of fine detail.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I've got a few books on wood carving its something I have been interested in learning, I am thinking about learning stained glass another thing I want to learn. I used to paint don't miss that much though.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok long busy day at work finally over. I found out one of my friends at work is into wood carving, apparently his dad does it for a living and he said I was welcome to come over to his house to learn a few things from him when I'm ready.

also talked to the W for a few minutes after talking to S4 tonight. interesting phone call. Why is it so hard for her to ask me for help? she hints over and over that she needs something but will not ask. 
hint #1 SD asked when she will see you again... my response: I don't know we can plan something this weekend have anything in mind?
hint #2 I'm going to go apply for that job tomorrow I think I have to take SD with me. I ignored it and went on talking about something else. this was repeated a few times in different ways. I finally broke down I couldn't take it anymore, so I asked her if she needed someone to watch SD to which she replied she would really appreciate it if I could watch her while she goes to fill out this application (I sent her a lead on a job yesterday from a friend who didn't have her number anymore) 
seriously whats the deal? why can't she ask? is it because she is so used to me just fixing? I know I failed I caved and fixed. wish she'd just ask as I have no problem spending a little time with my SD in fact I was hoping to snag her for the afternoon anyway my friends coming over and bringing his kid who is my SDs friend so she had asked if SD could come play.

on another note during our phone call I asked her what she has been up to and she replied "thinking". I couldn't help it I had to ask if she figured anything out. this might be a waste of time, her answer is that she isnt sure but will have an answer for me soon


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Now you're getting somewhere.

She can't ask because SHE IS USED TO YOUR FIXING.

It's how she takes you for granted.

You must break that dynamic.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I couldn't help it I had to ask if she figured anything out. this might be a waste of time, her answer is that she isnt sure but will have an answer for me soon


Gave her all the power - again.

One - Transaction - At - A - Time


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

so how do I break that dynamic if she wont ask? I was honestly waiting for her to ask a number of times, nice long pauses giving her a chance to just ask. I had planned on asking her if I could take my SD for the afternoon, but she started dropping the hints before I got to asking her.

what am I supposed to do with her indecisiveness? she knows I want R, she knows its left to her to decide if she wants R there's no hiding who is going to make that decision. I don't see where I have any power in that at all and I don't understand how I'm giving up something I don't have. Is there a proper response to "I'm not sure I'll have an answer for you soon"? Or was it the fact I took the bait and asked if she figured anything out that was my problem?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> what am I supposed to do with her indecisiveness?


Let it go.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Let it go.


I don't know what to say to this. The idea is almost painful to try and comprehend. Just reading that instilled fear, and it took a few minutes to figure out I am scared of this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I don't know what to say to this. The idea is almost painful to try and comprehend. Just reading that instilled fear, and it took a few minutes to figure out I am scared of this.


Doesn't surprise me a bit.

Nearly all of the guys here have walked that mile.

If we can, you can.

**********

You likely almost regard that fixing behavior as the reason you're alive.

Trust me, it isn't.

There's a much larger better world waiting for you - once you open the prison between your ears.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

the thing that's hardest, well 2 parts are difficult about not fixing. 

First is the fact that before I even put any conscious thought into it I have already begun thinking of how to help with someone else's problem. provided I like them, if I don't like you I don't even think how to solve the problem I just remind myself I'm glad its not my problem lol

second is I really like helping people, for selfish reasons (I like being nice and when it is expressed being thanked) I am that guy who gets out of his car and helps you push your broke down pos into the gas station every time unless I have a reason not to it can be 125 out I don't even know the random people yet I help and I enjoy it.

not surprisingly my wife is a taker. considers herself the opposite as most of them do, she is very good at focusing one the things she has given and completely disregarding the things done for her. I understand why her having to ask before I offer will help this but it is something I struggle with as I just am so used to doing and not waiting to be asked. It is going to be a tough thing to break been doing it all my life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> she is very good at focusing one the things she has given and completely disregarding the things done for her.


Look at that from 50,000 feet and sit with it a bit.

How would you advise your best friend to proceed?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

to stop doing things freely without being asked just like you have been trying to get me to stop. prior to TAM I wouldn't have had anything productive to say.

hrm side question, is it ok to ask her if she needs something done like I did with SD today. I asked if she needed someone to watch her when she wouldn't ask me. I thought when I did this I shouldn't but I had tried to get her to ask and wanted SD for the afternoon.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> to stop doing things freely without being asked just like you have been trying to get me to stop. prior to TAM I wouldn't have had anything productive to say.
> 
> hrm side question, is it ok to ask her if she needs something done like I did with SD today. I asked if she needed someone to watch her when she wouldn't ask me. I thought when I did this I shouldn't but I had tried to get her to ask and wanted SD for the afternoon.


If you want SD - be proactive about it.

Call her up and tell her you want her.

Don't make it in response to some perceived need of hers.

Do more - fix less


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

i had intended to ask for SD today, she just started dropping the hints she needed someone to take her before I asked, which made it where I felt I was in a place of offering to take her (fixing) or not asking at all.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> i had intended to ask for SD today, she just started dropping the hints she needed someone to take her before I asked, which made it where I felt I was in a place of offering to take her (fixing) or not asking at all.


Get out in front of situations like this and simply ask.

Don't wait for the discussion to unfold where your needs are made subservient to her plans.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So when I talked to her tonight we talked briefly about my SD coming over today and she said that SD was asking when she would get to come over again. I told her whenever I'd like to see her again as we didn't get much time today I was busy when I had her. She goes right into mentioning that she has no babysitter tomorrow and if I happen to be in the neighborhood possibly visiting a friend, most of my friends live over that side of town. I was welcome to pick her up from her work. My response was "so you want me to watch her?" she only said "No I cant ask that it wouldn't be right, but you're welcome to get her if you want." 

I am tempted to go save SD from a miserable day sitting in the lobby of a pizza place for 9 hours with nothing to do but I know I am not supposed to be fixing my W's problems. 

I spent a little time thinking about this tonight and have noticed something interesting. She only does this with my SD, never with BOTH kids. If she has both kids she always manages to find a sitter for things. Got me thinking, maybe she is trying to see if I care about SD enough to stay in their lives. She knows me and SD have had our problems and when asked what her big issues with R were that was one of the only ones she had. Am I being tested here to see if I care enough about SD? It's either that or she really is just trying to use the fixer in me for her advantage. When I get up I have errands to run. I think I'll go grab SD and not worry about what the proper response is, she doesn't deserve to have to sit there all damn day with nothing to do. Wish it wasn't a 23 mile drive one way but whatever its just gas.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you want her to continue wiping her feet on you, carry on.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok I did go get my SD today from her work, she was very appreciative about it and thanked me at least twice. SD was so happy to get out of there too, we had a fun day and I am glad I went and got her. My W picked her up and we are going to have dinner/movie tomorrow night, not going out but at her place. I also told SD she could come swimming tomorrow as she had not bathing suit today so I will have her again tomorrow for a few hours.

Only worthwhile bit from our interaction today was she made mention that she was talking to her boss (one of the only married women she talks to) anyway she was talking to her about us possibly getting back together. She made no mention of what they were talking about in this regard and I didn't bother to ask. I don't care what her boss thinks and I wasn't really in any mood to listen to what her boss thinks even if she was going to tell me. So I just told her it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, just what we think and that I know she still cares for me. This got a reaction. She looks down as we were walking and says she does still care, gives me a hug, and has a guilty/sad look on her face almost like she was about to cry. 

It would be so nice if she would verbally admit she f'd up I can see she thinks it but she still lacks the ability to say it or apologize. I don't need the apology, I would really love to just hear the admission of her mistakes. I've owned up to mine.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dream on brother.

As long as you keep enabling, it's a pipedream.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo

Stop waiting for her admission and keep living your life.

It s not her words but her actions that will have true meaning.

And from what you have told us she has MIT made any real actions to work on herself or repair the marriage.

Enjoy the day with your kids.

HM


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

been almost a week since I posted.

dinner satarday was crap, she came home from work in a bad mood (apparently its that time of the month) we got to talking at one point but she did all the talking as we were suddenly being spied on by my SD under the door. She only talked about my problems and our differences.

I emailed her sunday my response to what she had said. to sum it up quickly I said she needs to own up to her problems and realize I am only half the problem here she is just as responsible for our marriage failing as I am and if she cant admit that out this is a waste of time. I also explained the process of pausing the divorce for her as she was unsure how that worked (we can pause for 90 days)

I track my emails so I knew when she opened the email (245pm) and interestingly she text me 19 minutes later about S4 being sick all day. I was busy so I didnt bite just asked quickly if he was ok and left it alone.

talked to her briefly as usual each night, 

Mon night: Talked very briefly about the email I sent her. Specifically only the part where I explained how to pause the D. She told me "we have plenty of time, right?" I told her no we are almost out of time, we have D papers to sign, court in a month. I do not want to ask for a continuance from the judge right before our court date and piss him off. She asked how long then, I told her I want to know if we are pausing this in a week, 2 at the absolute most. That I need an answer. (I think she is too indecisive and I just got the feeling I should push otherwise I will never get an answer)

Wednesday night:
she asked if I could pick her up from the mechanics when I was coming over to get S4 so she could drop her car off. Nice she actually asked instead of just putting her problem out there. I told her I would and offered to hang out with her and SD for a bit so I could drop her back off she was ok with that.

Thurs: Picked her up and we went to breakfast, then dropped her back off car was ready. after that I went back to her place and she spent 2 hours filling out job apps online while i watched tv with S4 and SD and played with SD while S4 napped. then I told her I had to go and left. She thanked me a few times throughout the day for picking her up. At some point I asked her if she had a babysitter lined up for SD and she said no. So I told her I would like to take her friday, but I cannot take her satarday. So I have SD again tomorrow . She mentioned she has to work sunday and cant take her to work with her sunday, also mentioned that she is fired if she doesnt go in on sunday. I work sunday night, I'd be ok watching SD for her, but she didnt ask and if she does I want a damn home cooked dinner the next weekend I am so sick of drive thru and I lack a kitchen I feel comfortable using. ( i dont like to come out of my rented room and use any of the rest of the house )

Tonight I talked to SD at bedtime then spend about 20 min talking to my W afterwards. She told me she sent pics to her online guy she was interested in when she left, she sent them after she left, and now he is trying to blackmail her with them and she is going to the police about it tomorrow. She said she "has made a lot of mistakes in the last few months" I agreed then took a moment to reassure her I am not judging her for making mistakes, we all do. Also asked where my pics were, she got a laugh out of that. Overall she seemed really sad when she was admitting to having made a number of mistakes "these last few months" I think her leaving is slowly becoming one of those mistakes.

My therapist has me reading Toxic Parents right now, and suggested once I am done I pass it to her (hers were worse than mine) I haven't finished awareness. I cant wrap my head around a lot of that yet its like it makes sense when I am reading it and then it doesn't right after. I will restart awareness soon.

That about sums up my week. Sorry for the lack of posting I took the bad Sat night dinner rough and really didn't feel like talking to anyone at all. It was like every week got better and better between us then boom sat night sucked all around. Took a few days of minimal contact to get myself together again. Tonight's admission that she has made a lot of mistakes was a real unanticipated boost though and I can't wait to see SD tomorrow were going to the park with the play in water fountains  S4 will love them too.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo

While her admission of making mistakes is good for her, it is her actions to make amends, straighten out her life, fix her marriage and protect the children that counts.

Her choice in BF's is deplorable.

Keep watching. Less listening.

And if you want to do something encourage her to act in a positive manner.

HM


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> been almost a week since I posted.
> 
> dinner satarday was crap, she came home from work in a bad mood (apparently its that time of the month) we got to talking at one point but she did all the talking as we were suddenly being spied on by my SD under the door. She only talked about my problems


Why are you permitting this?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

our conversation that night lasted about 2 minutes. SD is getting really bad about listening in and watching us. Once we saw her under the door we stopped talking. Not much I can do about that she is 9, totally interested and it affects her so I understand her curiosity and her lack of ability to mind her own business. Once SD was seen under the door my W was done talking, Had SD not started listening in so quickly that time I would have had a chance to talk but I am also trying to keep the conversations away from her. All of the issues my wife brought up that were my problems in that short conversation were legitimate issues some of which I have discussed in IC already. All of which I am trying or will try to work on, its not like she was bashing me. I'm not sure about this but she is also kind of hiding behind the kids to avoid talking some nights, this requires zero effort because my SD makes it easy she follows us around the house even says I'm watching you. Wonder if mom puts her up to it or if she just thinks its a game for my attention since she hardly sees me anymore. I'm tempted to ask SD about it today, I have her all day again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

In general, you are being far too permissive with her - and still catering to her needs for childcare and fixing stuff.

It's not a formula for respect.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> In general, you are being far too permissive with her - and still catering to her needs for childcare and fixing stuff.
> 
> It's not a formula for respect.


I know I am. I like helping her, not just her I help all my friends with things too. I am hoping to rid my life of #3s and I am getting better about waiting for her or anyone to ask for help. I'm not sure what else to do, Its just not me to sit back and not try to resolve a problem or help you resolve a problem and I don't think I want to totally change myself just to get her respect. I confused as to what to do about this, I like the fact I am a helpful person. It comes naturally and I really don't think I should just change who I am just for her respect provided I get rid of the 3#s I don't see it a problem.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I'm not sure what else to do, Its just not me to sit back and not try to resolve a problem or help you resolve a problem and I don't think I want to totally change myself just to get her respect. I confused as to what to do about this, I like the fact I am a helpful person.


If you force your help on other people when it's unwanted and unasked for, you are not being helpful. You are being arrogant, annoying and selfish.

In addition, you are teaching the person you are "helping" that they don't have to take responsibility for anything, because you will for them.

When you do it, you are being dishonest and disrespectful to both them and yourself. It does more harm than good to everyone involved.



Ryo said:


> It comes naturally and I really don't think I should just change who I am just for her respect provided I get rid of the 3#s I don't see it a problem.


Of course you shouldn't change who you are just for her respect... You should change who you are for your own respect.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I am not one for force my help on people, I offer to help just about always though. Its one of the things I like doing, and I like the fact that all of my friends are wiling to drop what they are doing if I am in need thanks to the fact I've always been there for them. I do sometimes offer before I think, I will continue to work on that.
I do offer way to much help to her though, but as long as we might be working on things I am ok with that. I also really like the time with my SD more and more. Its how I get that time and I get a little time with the W.

Today was a great day, had a lot of fun with S4 and SD. had a few interesting things to it though.

at one point my SD said, and this is the second time I've heard this, "you only want to see me to get close to my mom". so I asked her since mom wasnt around this time, where she heard that. Mom told her 2 months ago, I told my W what SD said and asked. She did tell her that and it was months ago. At least I know for sure where she is getting it now.

I stayed for a while at her place when i took SD back, we laid down in bed for a bit she was tired and the kids watched a movie. Only talked a little bit. She says we have 2 big things going against us if we try to work on things. "me and her" lol. she also still thinks she is not cut out for a relationship, she is not prime relationship material but her issues can be dealt with if she chooses to deal with them.

SD again once my W woke up and we were layin in bed talking my SD would not leave us alone. Gives me these dirty looks like saying haha I know you wish I would leave you two alone but I wont! even has a little grin when she is doing it. Nice reminder of how she has always purposely done things to bother people just because she likes to. I do not understand this behavior at all. I know she doesnt fully understand what all is going on but its flat out rude, she knows it and is relishing in that fact. Worse part is I really cant say anything my W uses it to avoid conversation.

Not really anything I can do to influence that she needs to decide to deal with them and do it on her own. I've offered the only help in this area I can, to watch SD during her therapy appointments only if they are on Thursday when I drive across town to get S4 anyway.

I am going to ask for SD again one day next weekend, Friday again. Maybe I might even ask to just get S4 on Friday also and cut out having my mom babysit until 3 am at my house Thursday night. I know that is wearing on my mom.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

finished reading toxic parents last night. was a much simpler book than some of the others I've been reading. I've learned a lot about some of my negative behaviors in relationships and they make a lot more sense now. I offered the book to my W as it would be a huge help to her it even has a lot in it about sexual abuse which is something she needs to deal with. Her mom still does not believe her sadly. As I expected she is not interested in reading it right now.

While texting back and forth last night she asked if she could bring SD by this morning and have me watch her while she was at work, then before I could even answer she apologized. I asked her why she was apologizing and she said she was an inconvenience. Comments like these are becoming more and more common from her, she truly believes them too, makes me sad. Wish she would go see someone for help as its clear her depression is still a major issue. Not sure the appropriate response to these things but I told her that she was not an inconvenience and never has been. neither is SD. then left it alone.

I'm just glad she has learned to ask for things so I can now expect her to ask and not have to always offer. I seem to get more appreciation for my help now too. When she asks she is a lot more thankful when I help.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So I have had about enough of her hiding from talking by keeping the kids around her. Today when she picked up both kids at my work I decided we are going out without them next weekend. I am amazed this went as well as it did too. I asked her to pick a night friday or satarday for next weekend when she asked why I told her we were going out and I needed to line up a babysitter. She tried for a moment to use SD as an excuse but I told her I'd handle her getting watched too if she can't figure it out. No more argument. 

I'm getting her away from the kids so I can talk to her. I need to know if we are done or not. I cant stall the divorce more than another 2 weeks without her signing off on a continuance. So in the next weeks I can sign D papers or sign continuance papers. I'm signing something. Hopefully I am not pushing too hard but times up on this.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well today sucked. After I talked to S4 and SD to say goodnight she got on the phone and somehow out of the blue we started talking about us. You know that conversation I have been trying to get to happen in person for weeks. She sure has timing. My boss is pissed at me because I ignored his phone calls for 37 minutes while I talked to her lol. Anyway on to the phone call. I asked her what she would like to go out and do friday night and she said she has no babysitter so she doesn't think we are going out, my parents are lookingforward to possibly watching BOTH the kids friday . My dad misses SD a lot. We talked briefly about weather or not she would let my parents see SD (she was for a while saying they could not see her because they stayed out of the middle of our D and have said they will follow my lead on SD issues, pissed her off)

Next we got to talking about us, she said again she doesn't know what she wants, and doesn't understand why I want her anyway. She then went on about how she is a damaged person with a messed up childhood and lots of problems and no one should want her. I'm probably too honest but I basically told her I know all her problems, I wont argue they are not there but they don't change a thing, I still love her and I've known about all her problems for a long time and it never changed how I felt. She asked why I loved her, I happily went on to explain what I saw in her, what it was that I felt made her special. She went on to say she has spent all of her life looking for love because of her issues with her dad and always having a guy in her life, never living on her own being her own person. That she feels its time she does that and discovers what she wants. That she needs to take the time to resolve her childhood issues and fix herself before she can work on any "us". I told her thats good she needs to work on those issues as I need to work on mine, but in order for things to continue as they are I need her to atleast commit to not seeing other people, I cannot continue doing things the way we have been the last month and a half for my own sanity. I need that and I need to know that we will begin working on us in the future, then things can stay as is. I'm not asking to move into her place, or asking her to start going to MC with me. All I want is to know we are not out looking for other people and I'm good. That and I want to pause the D for 90 days. She went on to say that she would feel too guilty if she agreed to that then turned around and changed her mind once she was on a path of resolving her issues should she decide I am not what she wants. I let her know I am perfectly willing to roll the dice on that because I know what I want. *She said she thinks she is toxic for me, I do not fully understand this comment and would like your input on it please.* She then went on to say that I have certain things about me that she does not like, I keep hearing this but never get her to spell out what they are. So I asked her what they were, and she says she doesnt know them off the top of her head? I asked her why, if they are bad enough to keep her out of a relationship, how does she not know what they are. Told her I want to know and she can take the time and write it down if she doesnt want to tell me on the phone. I seriously want to know, I cant possibly point out all my faults without a little help, and how can I work on something I don't know about? At first she said she was not going to "make me a list" I told her I would really appreciate it if she did, I'd like my therapist to see it I am curious what she will say is just part of who I am and what she will say I need to work on. (I'd be willing to bet my possible ADD is on that list. My need to schedule everything and write it down or i forget about it drove her f'n nuts) 

The items she listed off for me tonight were that I am like a rock, I don't budge, I don't loosen up, I am always serious. She said I wont loosen up and go dancing, and that I can be a know it all. From my perspective I can agree with some of it. I hate dancing, I would honestly given the choice go get a root canal over having to dance one dance its nothing new she has known this forever. I am very serious with a lot of things, but I loosen up just fine. She just always would go off and do her own thing (video games) when I would loosen up and hang out with a friend or play with the kids, should I ever try to play with her or joke she wouldn't take it well so I stopped. The know it all thing, I can see that at times. But on the flip side of the coin if I don't actually know anything about whats being discussed I am not one to still think I know much of anything. When I know what I am talking about I have no problem letting it be known, when I don't thats in the open too. I think this is a list of things wrong with me that was made up on the spot to avoid telling me what she really thinks. I know a lot of my own problems that are far worse than this and those are the issues I am working on and will continue to work on.

At this point she said she feels pressured to have to make a decision and that she and everyone else she talks to thinks she shouldn't be pressured and should take the time she needs. I told her that I understand she needs time thats why I am willing to keep things the way they are, but for me I need this to keep going as we have been. Its not about pressuring her into something its about me needing to know what we are doing. All I got in response was "you don't have to wait for me, I'd feel terrible if you did because I said we will try and then realized its not what I want"

No idea what to do next, I'm not asking a lot here I don't think. Is it too much to say: I wont see other people but lets keep it the way it is for now while we work on ourselves? If I cant get that much out of her I think I am going to have to stop talking to her, that will be hard. I seriously look forward to the brief phone call I get every night, but I am torturing myself, she is just my instrument of self torture.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo

You make the decision.

Stop torturing yourself.

HM


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I've already told myself I will have something from her or I can't keep this up and without telling her the date I've told myself I'll give it till Saturday night as friday will hopefully be a night I can spend some time with her without the kids. Giving me a chance for a face to face conversation, I feel my do better at making progress face to face and that I better communicate what I mean that way.

one thing I forgot to mention from tonight's phone call. to recap things were very bad at home before she left, to the point I told her I was unhappy and we had to do something about our relationship problems. I found out tonight she was doing it all on purpose. She told me she did not want to feel guilty for being the one to leave and breaking up the family so she had spent months purposely trying to get me to leave her. Is it just me or is that just flat out ridiculous?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I found out tonight she was doing it all on purpose. She told me she did not want to feel guilty for being the one to leave and breaking up the family so she had spent months purposely trying to get me to leave her. Is it just me or is that just flat out ridiculous?


Ryo, 

Stop talking to her.

Like Happy stated on your page - you're torturing yourself. Stop It.

Free yourself from her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I found out tonight she was doing it all on purpose. She told me she did not want to feel guilty for being the one to leave and breaking up the family so she had spent months purposely trying to get me to leave her. Is it just me or is that just flat out ridiculous?


If you logged on here for the first time, you might feel that way.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I can't stop talking to her. Even with everything that has happened, I still miss her. I believe her when she says she is going to work on her issues before she wants to work on us, somehow it makes sense. I've got no where else to be so I might as well stick it out and see where this goes. After the conversations we have had this week I have been able to accept that she can't commit to working on the marriage right now, but when I talk to her I can see that she is holding back on that because she thinks she is bad. Shes always had that thought, I used to try and fix it which never worked. Maybe if she gets into therapy, she has a doctor's referral to a psychiatrist now, maybe she can resolve her problems. I have a new respect for how f'd up her childhood was after some of the reading I have done this week. I never looked into how badly being molested by her father and her mom never believing her could screw up a person. I completely understand how the other abuse messes people from my own experience. I'm going to continue with my IC and hope she makes progress in hers. I'll also continue to spend time with her, and with the kids and just see where this takes me.

Tomorrow (or today depending on how you look at it) Friday night when she gets off work we are going to catch a show down on the strip at one of the hotels. My parents are watching the kids over night and I'm looking forward to just going and having a good time together. Not even after trying to get answers, I've gotten a lot of those this week and I will post the new stuff from those talks sometime tomorrow if I have time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She's showing you she never will commit as long as you continue trying to nice her out of it.

We're spoken of this many times.

The relationship is working just fine for her.


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

Be strong buddy.

Every contact sucks you back into the misery and delays your healing.

Every minute you stay dark you are healing and moving towards your future, whatever that is going to be.

This is so very hard I know, I am coming up on one year and every contact I have with my WAW is a set back.

I want to heal and be happy.

I am staying DARK.

Stretch


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Last night was great. Dropped S4 and SD at my parents and went over to her place to pick her up. We had a good time before the show just hanging out having a drink, show was good. After the show we grabbed dinner at a restaurant in the same casino other than poor service the dinner was great. We had a drink and just hung out talking mostly about nothing and a little about what our individual plans are for the short term future. She is starting school next month on the 26th, no new on the job front though. After dinner we headed back to her place and I stayed the night. Bedroom performance is much better thanks to no kids at the door and the fact I have been exercising now. We barely talked about our relationship I was glad to just go have a good time and let it be what it is for the night. Overall I had a great time, just couldn't manage to sleep had too much on my mind and didn't take anything to help me sleep at her place.

Ok on to the new stuff I have learned this week. I am not sure if i posted this but she told me one of her online friends came to visit 2 months after she left me and that she slept with him. He is the one trying to blackmail her threatening to post her pics on the internet if she doesn't get back together with him. Apparently she broke it off after meeting him in person. I have seen the screenshots of their conversations, he is a total nut just all out crazy. I am not sure at what point their friendship turned into an EA but I think it was right around Christmas or January because I know she took pictures (head shots) of herself for someone in January as I have her mobile phone photo uploads on my dropbox (i should have been checking these back then apparently). So her EA was definitely going on for a few months before she moved out.

I think I'll take the next few weekends and just do my own thing with S4 and maybe SD some days (I plan on keeping up watching SD for her on Fridays so I can spend time with SD) I think I am going to start looking at apartments so I can get back across to that side of town and out of this room I am renting.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Friday I picked up both kids at her place in the morning before she went to work and while talking she made a comment she told her friends online jokingly that maybe she won't play that night and will go out and get laid. I half jokingly asked her what time she wanted me over lol to my surprise I got a text when she got off work telling me to bring over a bottle of wine when dropping off SD. We went out to a movie then back to her place and put the kids to bed. 

We had a Long talk in which she admitted to her EA and admitted that it had been going on for a while. She seemed sorry and ashamed of it. She told me that in order for us to get back together I need to figure out what I want to do for work as I do not want to keep doing what I do now. This is something I knew she would say and I've needed to figure this out for a long time. 

She is scared of her appt right now. We were fooling around in bed and someone came to her window last night. I didn't get out there and around the building in time to catch them sadly but she has been saying for a while she thinks someone has been snooping around her place.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just got a text about an hour ago she wants to stay the night with me at my place after last night. I'd rather stay at her place and see if whoever was at her window last night tries it again but she is too scared. Wish I was faster last night getting boxers on and getting out the front door to catch them but they were gone.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Just got a text about an hour ago she wants to stay the night with me at my place after last night. I'd rather stay at her place and see if whoever was at her window last night tries it again but she is too scared. Wish I was faster last night getting boxers on and getting out the front door to catch them but they were gone.


Next time wear forget the boxers.

Let the one eyed snake scare the peeper off. 

HM


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

That might have sped me ip enough to catch whoever it was. I don't think it was a peeper I think they were going to break in. You can't see in thru her drapes.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Ryo said:


> My therapist asked me 2 questions that I think I should have been able to answer quickly and easily last week. She asked me what I loved about my wife when we got together, what it was the made me marry her. She also asked me if I were to list her qualities what would they be.
> 
> The first question I can honestly say I do not know. My memory may be tainted by a couple years of unhappy marriage to her or maybe it is what my wife says "2 lonely people who found each other" I have a job where I work crappy hours and I work alone most of the time. My only human interaction was yelling at people on the road who almost ran me over at work and drinking at the bar at 6am after a 12 hour work shift. Maybe I was just lonely and latched on to the first woman I had any type of relationship with in years.
> 
> ...


Reading your thread. Great writing. Thank you, Conrad, for hanging out here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There once was a road working guy
whose wife seldom looked at the sky.
To role play online
that suited her fine.
She could hold her pee
while killing teenage mutants devine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> There was a road working guy
> whose wife seldom looked at the sky.
> To role play online
> that suited her fine.
> ...


:rofl: Wasn't expecting that when I started reading it, just about spit my water all over my keyboard.

She stayed over last night with the kids, we watched the new bourne movie then after the kids went to sleep we talked a bit. We talked a little more of her EA and she ran me through the whole thing. When it started, January, how it escalated, that she wrongly justified it as ok because she wasn't happy and it wasn't physical. Then she shamefully said "so there you have it, thats how it happened." she also admits to it being a mistake, but has not used the word sorry. She did say that she has learned from the experience and sees how she let it happen. Its interesting talking to her, watching how she acts while she says some of this stuff. Looks down, shamefully during admissions, or away. She knows she messed up, she feels bad about it, she can't seem to apologize for it but thats ok. Other than that talk we kept things light. messed around a little in bed then went to sleep, I was running on 10 hours of sleep total for 3 days so I was done.

Got up this morning and went for pancakes then came home and went swimming for a few hours with the kids. She even wore a bikini, haven't seen that since shortly after the honeymoon. Had a great day with all of us together. She is even getting more, not sure what to call this but now when I go up to her she will turn and put my arms around her to hold her. Even got some in the shower after swimming :smthumbup: Things are definitely improving. As long as she continues to work on her issues and not stay glued to a game, I'm excited to see where this goes.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Good. Just make sure she makes all the changes necessary for a healthy relationship.

I was emotionally abused as a child so I empathize with your distance from love. I know that I love my kids. I don't know what I feel for my parents. I suppose I love them, but I don't feel it. Makes me sad. I love my youngest brother. I love his boys, my nephews like my own. My other brother, I love him but I never call him. He sided with my dad always when I was getting abused. He couldn't help it, little guy. I don't love his son or daughter (my niece and nephew are around the same age as my kids). My SIL kept her kids away from mine as much as could. This hurt me and my relationship a lot. Makes me sad, too.

I wish life was like online, where you could suffer disaster and them heal to fight again without any effort. It's easy to be addicted online BS. You need to keep divorcing your wife to make certain she is committed to your IRL relationship. You need a woman who has your back so you can get a better job. You are a smart guy. You are honest. Fight for life on your terms. Get a hobby that brings you out of isolation. Your wife needs to know in no uncertain terms that online gaming is a deal breaker. 

If she is a good cook but cannot give that to her family, why would want her? 

Keep working with Conrad. The guy is so generous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I am going on a trip for a couple of weeks. May not be able to keep up with TAM. Check out Moxy and Lovelove's threads.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm ok with her still gaming. Just not over doing it. Now that she has things to do its much better before she just played the game with no consequences it won't ever be like that again. She also got real bad because that's where her EA was. I didn't know it at the time though. 

Also last night she called ne at word and she said "you probably don't have extra clothes but do you want to come stay over here tonight?" I had extra clothes because I knew she was going to ask that lol so I am at her place right now with her and the kids. 3 nights in a row we've stayed together now. She's using the guy at the window as the reason but I know that's only part of it.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Could it possibly be that this 'guy at the window' is in fact her PA?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Her ea/pa is in Florida all the way across the country. This was someone trying to break in her window is behind 6 foot tall bushes hiding the entire buildings collection of ac units that are in front of her window. Perfect windows to try to open hidden.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I'm ok with her still gaming. Just not over doing it. Now that she has things to do its much better before she just played the game with no consequences it won't ever be like that again. She also got real bad because that's where her EA was. I didn't know it at the time though.
> 
> Also last night she called ne at word and she said "you probably don't have extra clothes but do you want to come stay over here tonight?" I had extra clothes because I knew she was going to ask that lol so I am at her place right now with her and the kids. 3 nights in a row we've stayed together now. She's using the guy at the window as the reason but I know that's only part of it.


How's the temperature between the sheets?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Things are improving. I havnt been able to work out for 2 weeks because I pulled something but things have improved still

Friday night we were fooling around when the window guy ruined things. 
Saturday night we messed around a little at my place but no sex kids were sleeping in the other bed (I have one really big room I rent)
Sunday we broke in the shower at my place. Nothing happened last night or this morning but I'm still at her place. Staying for dinner then heading to work. She offered to wash my clothes not sure if she wants me back again tonight. I need to get up early tomorrow and get to the court house for paperwork to postpone the D for 90 days.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Things are improving. I havnt been able to work out for 2 weeks because I pulled something but things have improved still
> 
> Friday night we were fooling around when the window guy ruined things.
> Saturday night we messed around a little at my place but no sex kids were sleeping in the other bed (I have one really big room I rent)
> Sunday we broke in the shower at my place. Nothing happened last night or this morning but I'm still at her place. Staying for dinner then heading to work. She offered to wash my clothes not sure if she wants me back again tonight. I need to get up early tomorrow and get to the court house for paperwork to postpone the D for 90 days.


Take her

Make her feel sexy.

See what happens.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just got done eating dinner at her place. We ran to the store and bought all the stuff for dinner earlier and when we got home he looked at the recipe and realized she had looked up the wrong soup recipe and she was upset he bought the wrong stuff. Here's what she said. " I can believe I looked up the wrong soup." I told her it was fine that one looks good too then sounding very disappointed she said I wouldn't like that one and she had to go to the store. Normal her from before she left would have said well looks like that's what we're eating which would have been fine. But the soup I do like turned out amazing. I love her cooking  off to work in 20 minutes.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She called me earlier while I was working just to talk to me. Hasn't done that in years. I had to get off the phone since I was busy at work but called her back later for a few minutes. At bedtime when I spoke with the kids she told me I could come stay the night again 
So whenever I get off work tonight, dn overtime, I'm heading I her place again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Take her
> 
> Make her feel sexy.
> 
> See what happens.


Repeating myself.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She was asleep when I got there only got up to open the door and 6 hours later I'm up and back out the door headed to the court house. She is still asleep.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> She was asleep when I got there only got up to open the door and 6 hours later I'm up and back out the door headed to the court house. She is still asleep.


She won't be asleep next time.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok got a few things to cover today. 1st some back story. A few weeks ago I sent her a picture of a chicken finger when she asked what size they were from a restaurant I was ordering from. Se thought at first it my was penis lol. So we've been joking that I'm going to send her the real pic soon. Today when I went home for a bit while texting her she made a remark about if I shaved or not so I sent her that pic. Back at her place later she went and got dressed. Put on a dress. She never wets dresses unless its an occasion and we weren't going anywhere she just knows how much I like her in a dress so I have to agree she won't be asleep next time.

Later today she made a comment about hoping she isn't giving me false hope. When I had a chance without the kids I asked her why she kept saying false hope it is not wrong for me to hope we can work things out. She goes back to the "I'm not relationship material" line and back to the she doesn't know what she wants. So I asked her of thins were going well right now as it is and she said yes. Then I asked her why that was a bad thing. She thinks she is bad for relationships. Not sure where to go with this so I'm just going to continue on as I have been and have a good time with her and hope she can work through her issues in time. She is supposed to be going to see a psychiatrist soon. In the meantime I will continue to reassure her that the problem isn't her not being relationship material an I will continue to make her feel sexy and special and just see where we go. 

She also said she still thinks he wants the D so she can get approved for all these programs that help single mothers go back to school. She can't afford to go otherwise.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

That's a fitness test.

"I don't want to give you false hope"

The stuff about school is even a bigger fitness test.

She won't stop with them until you start passing them.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm missing how to pass those two fitness tests. Ill have to think on it once I'm not busy at work.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> That's a fitness test.
> 
> "I don't want to give you false hope"


"False hope is superior to falsehoods - (big smile) - just be real"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> "False hope is superior to falsehoods - (big smile) - just be real"


Don't understand this except the be real part.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Don't understand this except the be real part.


How many falsehoods has she told you?

Humor is the most reliable method to pass fitness tests.

Swat them away like flies.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Humor I've got thankfully. 

Falsehoods...
Probably a lot. I'd have to sit down with a pen and paper and think.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Humor I've got thankfully.
> 
> Falsehoods...
> Probably a lot. I'd have to sit down with a pen and paper and think.


Don't take it too seriously.

Her fitness tests are to be brushed away with humor and masculine mettle

As a result, she'll feel safe with you.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Don't take it too seriously.
> 
> Her fitness tests are to be brushed away with humor and masculine mettle
> 
> As a result, she'll feel safe with you.


Thanks to your post on fitness tests I have gotten a lot better at that. I just don't recognize them all as they happen. But have made it a point to be quick with humorous and confident responses to a lot of things she says. She got me with the "not relationship material" and the school comments though. It was inevitable I've spent all my time not at work with her for 4 days now. Hoping to make it 5 we will see what happens when she calls at the kids bedtime within the next 1 1/2 hours. 

She no longer has a "reason" to offer me to stay over though. Last nights was a stretch. I wasn't supposed to be over until after the courthouse (which is located closer to my house) yet she offered for me to just stay over to make it easier. Not sure f she'll offer without a reason to hide behind I might just skip that and ask her if she will still be up when I'm off work.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

well was a nice run 4 nights in a row with her. I called her when I got off work (30 min early) since she hadnt called me back. we chatted for a few minutes at this point I had to know where i was going I was in my car on the way out of the work parking lot and we live at opposite ends of town so I asked.

me: Am I coming over?
W: No I should not have let you stay that many nights you're getting used to it and I don't want to settle into a routine. I don't want to just settle again for what we had
Me: I don't want what we had again, I want to get it right and have it work.
W: its important for me to keep my boundaries, I'm not convinced your it for me, that I can be happy with you.
me: I'm not trying to move into your apartment but I have enjoyed the time we've spent together this week. Things have gone good dont you think?
W: yeah but i'm still not convinced I can be happy with you.
me: that's fine, I've got time we can just do things the way we've been doing them you're worth it.
W: you can come over tomorrow and we'll go to the bank and I'll sign that paperwork for the D. (she was nervous about signing this today, unsure weather or not to trust me that I'm not out to screw her somehow)
me: ok any time?
W: can you watch the kids so I can apply at those restaurants across the street also?
me:sure I enjoy time with the kids thats no problem but I need to know what time your thinking I have other things to do.

conversation got into just boring details at this point. nothing else worth mentioning. surprised I remember that much of it honestly lol I know there was more to that conversation that I don't remember exactly what was said or where in the conversation it was said.

did I crash and burn on those earlier fitness tests and therefore not be able to come over for another night? maybe. did I make mistakes in this conversation of course I did. But one thing is certain. I'm consistent lol she'll eventually realize I'm not bs'n her as a tactic in the D as she has mentioned in previous conversations (I couldnt get a better D agreement than the one we have in a dream I came out ahead on everything) 

Its funny she had the EA yet I'm the one earning trust back, she is convinced I cheated on her at some point even though I didn't.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

She wants a divorce and to keep you as Plan B. When she started to go on about not knowing if you're the one "yadda yadda" a simple "okay" from yourself and getting off the phone would've been in your best interest.

The thing is, what's in your best interest hasn't been the focus at all, this entire time you've given her the control and this is what typically happens.

You're trying to prove yourself to someone who cheated on you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> well was a nice run 4 nights in a row with her. I called her when I got off work (30 min early) since she hadnt called me back. we chatted for a few minutes at this point I had to know where i was going I was in my car on the way out of the work parking lot and we live at opposite ends of town so I asked.
> 
> me: Am I coming over?
> W: No I should not have let you stay that many nights you're getting used to it and I don't want to settle into a routine. I don't want to just settle again for what we had
> ...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> me: Am I coming over?
> W: No I should not have let you stay that many nights you're getting used to it and I don't want to settle into a routine. I don't want to just settle again for what we had
> Me: I don't want what we had again, I want to get it right and have it work.
> W: its important for me to keep my boundaries, I'm not convinced your it for me, that I can be happy with you.
> ...


This makes you look clingy and unattractive.

Be that as it may, for the life of me I don't understand why you don't run from this relationship.

*Even she admits to being broken!*

Ryo, you are getting your hopes up for R, but in my opinion you are setting yourself up for more heartache.

But maybe that's what you need. It's your journey.

The recent sex and feigned affection is just hoovering. She's afraid of losing you completely, but she doesn't want a close intimate relationship with you, either.

I agree with the sentiment that she is not LTR material. Not at this time, maybe never. You said she was a revolving door to other men before you met. She hasn't changed. She is addicted to the "sparkle" of new relationships. This is why your marriage had been push/pull. Push you away, then suck you back in for the 'new relationship' chemical high.

This relationship is the Kobayashi Maru. You cannot win.

Some interesting reading:

Obsessing Over an Abusive Ex: Thoughts on Being Stuck | Shrink4Men

Abused Men: How Covert Abuse Begins, Part One | Shrink4Men


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Did you just reference Star Trek? You get a like just for that tho the advice was good to.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Threestrikes. 

You are right she is not LTR material right now, and she wasn't when we got together. The revolving door for men prior to us was part of her being broken, its more tied to the molestation in her childhood than to her need to that chemical high. I am hopeful that R is possible and I've heard some of the most honest things said by her about how she feels and her problems in the last 2 months. Things I've always known but she refused to talk about are out in the open now, she wants to work on herself I believe it. I hope she is successful in this and is able to deal with her issues. The push/pull never happened when we were together, we did drift apart and nothing was done about it but it was never a back and forth thing until now.
I'll read both of those tonight after work, or maybe today while I'm at her place.

I know logically running from this woman is the obvious thing to do. But I can't for a number of reasons. I do love her, I believe what she says about wanting to resolve her problems, shes even talking more and more openly about them which for her is a huge step. If she can figure herself out, and I can do the same I think things will work out. 

Without looking at the kids I am hoping this works out. 

When you factor in the kids things get even more sided to me hoping this works. I have no intention of having another kid, theres a lot of ADD, adhd, and asperger's on my dads side of the family, its no surprise that my son has some problems. Still havnt gotten snipped so I cant have kids I'm waiting on my buddy to bring me his docs name. In life I have always wanted 1 thing, a family. I know this is part of my broken childhood that I want a wife and kids but its still something I want and if I'm not going to have another kid this is the only woman its coming from. I am truly happy at home playing with the kids and seeing them every day. I'm miserable in the role of weekend dad, this week has been the best week I've had in a long time I have seen the kids every day so far. I am hopeful she works through her issues and we can work it out, but to be truly honest... I'd go back even if she didn't (I know I'm going to get smacked for saying that but its the truth)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>its more tied to the molestation in her childhood than to her need to that chemical high.<<

These are one and the same.

Please understand this.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> >>its more tied to the molestation in her childhood than to her need to that chemical high.<<
> 
> These are one and the same.
> 
> Please understand this.


I've always seen it as a lack of personal boundaries with men. Like they were never established well. But I can also see the need for the chemical high in her behavior as well. Especially in her dating history.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Threestrikes.
> 
> You are right she is not LTR material right now, and she wasn't when we got together. The revolving door for men prior to us was part of her being broken, its more tied to the molestation in her childhood than to her need to that chemical high. I am hopeful that R is possible and I've heard some of the most honest things said by her about how she feels and her problems in the last 2 months. Things I've always known but she refused to talk about are out in the open now, she wants to work on herself I believe it. I hope she is successful in this and is able to deal with her issues. The push/pull never happened when we were together, we did drift apart and nothing was done about it but it was never a back and forth thing until now.
> I'll read both of those tonight after work, or maybe today while I'm at her place.
> ...


Codependency is a b!tch.

You have placed your happiness in the hands of a broken woman, a broken family, and in a highly unlikely scenario.

Do you think that your wife doesn't sense, on a subconscious level, the pressure she is under? Pressure applied by you to keep you happy?

Dude, work on being happy with you. Your 'happiness' is dependent on too many variables. De-Pen-Dent.

What you call "love", I see as attachment. We don't love things or people that hurt us.

Did it occur to you that her gaming addiction satisfies her "new relationship" addiction? She doesn't play the game for gaming purposes. She plays MMORPGs because she can meet new guys, flirt, be sexual, get that chemical high, cyber-sex, etc. (there's a very good reason she stopped playing the same game as you) And she has you to pay the bills. She can be a floozie in a fantasy world, rather than the floozie down at the club or bar.

Sorry for my bluntness.

Wait, no I'm not. 

Kobayashi Maru. And you, sir, are no James T. Kirk.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo,

I didn't say the above to be mean. I've been where you are. Some of what your wife says are almost exact word-for-word things my ex said.

I forgave my ex's affair #1. She was sweet for about 6 months, before she covertly began affair #2...which again, I was stupid enough to think I could forgive and "fix".

Along comes affair #3. For some reason, I grew a pair. I moved out. Filed. She hoovered me. Wanted me to move back home. Professed her love, her apologies, blah blah...*all while starting a sexual relationship with PosOM#4!!!*

Save yourself the heartache. Run. You can't fix her.

Work on you! 

File for 50/50 parenting. You don't have to be a weekend dad. And don't be surprised when it starts to go 60/40 or 70/30 your way.

Re-read your thread. I read the entire thing today. You might a gain different perspective.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Regarding your FOO issues:

Talk to your IC about EMDR therapy. It really helped me. If he/she doesn't do it, maybe you can get a referral to someone who does.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I've always seen it as a lack of personal boundaries with men. Like they were never established well. But I can also see the need for the chemical high in her behavior as well. Especially in her dating history.


Here's the thing.

The people that were supposed to love her and care for her did not.

She seeks the high of male attention as compensation.

To fix this, she must recognize it as a problem - and self-regulate it.

I know about this sort of thing firsthand.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Reading those posts on her computer right now while she goes and applies for those jobs. I think I need to read that fitness test post every day lol. 

Only part way through the first article 3x linked. There's one thing in particular that has stood out "you have likely constructed a fantasy around this woman" guilty as charged. The family is my fantasy. Interesting article my W isn't crazy just broken. I am not much better but were working on that.

On to the second article. Love the picture of mouse trap the game lol. This article was fun to read and there are some aspects that are familiar to me but I think everyone will find some of this behavior at some point in a relationship. The parts I can say I recognize are the bringing up past relationships and problems (fixer in me ate this up) the sex on the other hand is different. She has a higher drive than me and still does. 

Thank you for the links 3x

I just saw all the above posts I was typing this as I read those articles. I'm posting on my phone so I don't log in on her computer and reading on the computer lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Reading those posts on her computer right now while she goes and applies for those jobs. I think I need to read that fitness test post every day lol.


Practice makes perfect.

BigBadWolf and MEM11363 are awesome mentors.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ill retread my thread again this weekend. It's been a while since I've done that. I can forgive the EA. I couldn't forgive a second but the first I have forgiven. You are sorta right about the mmo game she loves the attention she gets in it a woman being a lot rarer in the game then a man. But at the same time she doesn't join voice chat with people she doesn't know because of the attention. Don't worry about your bluntness I appreciate honesty I may not do with it what anyone thinks I should but I appreciate it. 

What are FOO issues? And EDMR therapy?

She was the first person to tell me exactly what Conrad said about the high male attention. It's something she admits to and claims as why she wants to be separated and not together right now so she can figure out her issues that being a big one.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo,

My wife and I still have "setbacks" from time to time on various issues.

What I've done is I've let her issues "go"

I still love her.

It's up to her whether she wishes to work on them or not.

Of course, she knows I wish she would.

But, I have no emotional investment in whether she does or not.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> My wife and I still have "setbacks" from time to time on various issues.
> 
> ...


How hard was it to let them go. That is where I've been trying to get to this last month. I do love my wife it is more than attachment. I know I've gotten off track this last few weeks and potentially may have slowed or undone progress by doing so. My wife will on some level address her issues and improve to some degree. I'm hopefull it's a big improvement but even a little would be fine. Although housekeeping hasn't improved at all I just looked under her desk and saw a litter box with some poo in it. She hasn't had a cat in at least 2 months. Out of sight out of mind. Ugh. Just felt I share that as I'm looking at it right now. Ill have to remember its there for next time she complains about something dirty at my house lol.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Oh and 3x I do have 50/50. I get him Thursday morning until Sunday night. Thanks to my work hours 6pm-whenever. I basically get him Thursday and loose out on sleep I need have him babysat over night so I can work then have him Friday and am up way to early and tired because he gets up earlier than I should. I typically get 10-12 hours of sleep total Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights having him without any help. I've made a trade she keeps him Thursday nights now and I take my SD on Fridays. Win win for me I don't have to get up Thursday early so am only loosing out on sleep 2 nights now and I get my SD for an afternoon. Il return to this later she just got home and I'm hungry.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> How hard was it to let them go. That is where I've been trying to get to this last month. I do love my wife it is more than attachment. I know I've gotten off track this last few weeks and potentially may have slowed or undone progress by doing so. My wife will on some level address her issues and improve to some degree. I'm hopefull it's a big improvement but even a little would be fine. Although housekeeping hasn't improved at all I just looked under her desk and saw a litter box with some poo in it. She hasn't had a cat in at least 2 months. Out of sight out of mind. Ugh. Just felt I share that as I'm looking at it right now. Ill have to remember its there for next time she complains about something dirty at my house lol.


Stay @50k as best you can.

Watching what they do - rather than what they say - will help ground you and reassure you that you aren't going insane.

That self-confidence is where you find the words to brush aside fitness tests with masculine mettle and humor.

With a wife like this, you simply must remain somewhat mysterious and intriguing... that will keep the cat's attention.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the help Conrad. Staying at 50k I'm improving on I can do it for short times consistently but when she throws a curve ball I fall and am no longer at observation levels. However what I do see as actions (facial expressions, where she looks, how her posture is) while she is talking clearly shows confusion, and some shame. She is not purposely dragging me along. She really has no idea what she wants she clearly knows she likes her time with me but is fighting the fact she doesn't want a broken relationship back and I don't either. Given time and hopefully some self improvement on both our parts I am convinced we can be together. No idea how long it will take but I'm sure if it happens it'll be worth the wait if she works on her issues. I'm going to talk to my ic next time and ask if we can shift put focus off my marriage and onto where I need to work on things. Where my problems in my marriage stem from. 

I like the mysterious idea. I'm hanging around too much I need something to go do that does not involve her or the kids.

Adding this in: tonight I had one of the closest calls at work I've had in a long time. The gate on my truck broke and I fell off the moving truck into a live lane right in front of a car. Luckily I landed on my feet jumped back and only caught the mirror of the car. Had I fallen even to my knees I'd be under a Toyota corolla tonight. Still not sure how I cleared the broken gate which stuck out at 90 degrees and still managed to be on my feet. Lucky. First person I wanted to talk to was her. I refrained and felt with work first but soon as I had time I text her a pic of my truck gate and told her what happened. Felt better after talking to her, I always do. Not doing too bad though that's my first close one this year.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Ill retread my thread again this weekend. It's been a while since I've done that. I can forgive the EA. I couldn't forgive a second but the first I have forgiven. You are sorta right about the mmo game *she loves the attention she gets in it a woman being a lot rarer in the game then a man. But at the same time she doesn't join voice chat with people she doesn't know because of the attention.* Don't worry about your bluntness I appreciate honesty I may not do with it what anyone thinks I should but I appreciate it.
> 
> What are FOO issues? And EDMR therapy?
> 
> She was the first person to tell me exactly what Conrad said about the high male attention. It's something she admits to and claims as why she wants to be separated and not together right now so she can figure out her issues that being a big one.


She was a SAHM, right? How do you know what she was doing?

FOO= Family Of Origin. The crap you went through as a kid. 

EMDR therapy= a way to desensitize traumatic memories so they no longer impact your life. For instance, the childhood abuse, hiding under your bed. All that crap affects you _*now*._ It determines who you are now. It affects your relationships, and can explain the root of your co-dependency, attraction to broken women, and why you married your mother.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> With a wife like this, you simply must remain somewhat mysterious and intriguing... that will keep the cat's attention.


Conrad, would you say this applies to most women?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: confused and dont know what to do*



ThreeStrikes said:


> Conrad, would you say this applies to most women?


Certain woman prefer it, others don't require it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Conrad, would you say this applies to most women?


I would say we should bring our "A" game everyday to the relationship. That includes being playful and intriguing.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

My next IC appointment is in 2 weeks I think, she is on vacation but I will bring up edmr therapy in the next session. 

Yes she was SAHM for 5 years had the weekend pizza job for 6 months of that. I know a lot about what she was doing through the game. Her numerous max level characters tell me how much time was spent leveling them all. Her rare gear on all her characters tell me how much time was spent obtaining that stuff in the game, stuff people cant give you or sell to you. My online friends, and our mutual online friends also were sources of information. From them id hear once in a while that she wouldnt join voice chat with new people because once they found out she was a woman and not some guy playing a woman character (very common in mmorpgs) its hard to get rid of these new people. She only wanted to surround herself with good players so until they proved they were good she never would let on she was female. 

Also we dont play together anymore not because she didn't want me to see how she acted, we were in the same voice chat server that I ran even when playing different games. It was because I moved on to a new game and she didn't enjoy it, I also sucked at player vs player and she is very good and only wanted to play with and against the best. Shes very elitist and takes it very seriously. I just have fun its a game.

I also came home randomly in the middle of my shift wince I had a project that was literally 30 seconds from my house that I went too some days. I would come home early and never call ahead I hate committing to being home early then have something happen at work and not be able to make it.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

She has to end the gaming. Period.

I have been where you have been, but I assure you we were more involved in the gaming and it was the catalyst for the end of our marriage. Now, we are all to be held responsible for our own issues in life but certain things (just like drugs and booze) can stir sh!t up so strongly that it becomes an all out war.

She had an EA with a gamer, if she really loved you she would end it. Mine chose taking a trip to meet a bunch of gamers without me, I told her to get out before they confirmed the plans.

I'm on my way to finalizing the divorce (I hope) and have been separated for over a year, recently she told me that she is 'still the same person she has always been, minus the accumulated marital property' and I believe her.

When yours tells you she isn't marriage material, believe her. If she cannot give up gaming for good, she isn't worth it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I cannot ask someone to do something I would not do myself. I have temporarily given up video games but have my eyes on a new mmo I'm waiting for. I love gaming. We used to enjoy it together and still could. Her gaming has greatly reduced and that's enough for me. If her EA had been at work I wouldn't expect her to stop working the game is just a place the gaming a hobby. Any hobby and once she is too busy to play non stop it will be lessened to healthy levels. She's almost there now. 

Update I am in the parking lot at the bank just got the notice to vacate court date notarized by both of us. Will pause the D tomorrow at the court house and possibly sign the mediation agreement so I have that secure as the back up. It's a good deal. If I don't sign it tomorrow I will soon have to see if the mediator returns my call tonight or not. She is off tomorrow and has to leave it with someone else in the office for me to sign it.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You couldn't give up gaming to save your marriage?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

I'll say this, Ryo...

You sure are good at coming to her rescue.


If my wife had an EA with a fellow employee, she most certainly would find a new job as part of reconciliation.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'll say this, Ryo...
> 
> You sure are good at coming to her rescue.
> 
> ...


Some just want to hear enough and hope it snowballs from that point onward to something great. Snowballs only roll one way ... downhill.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Some just want to hear enough and hope it snowballs from that point onward to something great. Snowballs only roll one way ... downhill.


It's his journey.

I had to learn the hard way, too.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> It's his journey.
> 
> I had to learn the hard way, too.


Of course, as did I. Heck, I'm still learning.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She won't always be playing the same game her EA was in. There's a new one around the corner constantly. I'm also not worried about her EA he's not a threat in any way. Shortly after we started talking and seeing each other again he went psycho on her and showed his true self. Total nut I've read the conversations. And I know this happened after we were seeing each other again ruling out her coming back because he's a nut. I would always wonder if it would have worked out if I don't give things a second chance. If its a mistake that's fine I can live with making it. What would eat me up is wondering if I could have had it work and had kept my family intact. I've been the one I F things up in a relationship I've made mistakes. I'm a firm believer in second chances, but not third ones.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Gaming is an addiction.
Ryo, when you say you have trouble feeling love for others, what about empathy?

You need to work towards some other career. What you are doing now is dangerous and a dead end in the long run. Of course, in the long run we are all doomed but you know what I mean.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Gaming is an addiction.
> Ryo, when you say you have trouble feeling love for others, what about empathy?


one of my wife's biggest complaints about me it that I have no empathy. I really cannot argue with her, I don't. The exception to this is children, I do feel for them even if they are not my own when something bad happens to a child. And parents, but only when it is something bad happening to their child. Nothing else phases me. No empathy, no sympathy. 

Now I'm not a big Ahole who just walks around being like oh too bad sucks to be you. I enjoy helping people, I'll be the first person to give you a hand if you need help but it is not motivated out of empathy or compassion. I just like being helpful so its for my benefit not yours that I help. 

Being that my wife was close to me and around me all the time she got to see that sometimes if I responded quickly to something that was happening that I lacked any empathy for those involved, even the kids. I've always reacted logically and never emotionally to situations. Its easier to fake it when the event is not currently in the process of happening and is done and over.

Something you may find interesting. I've said before my wife is someone who somehow has managed to get in past this problem. If something happens to her, I feel bad. Anything, could be just she had a bad day, or she stubs her toe I feel bad for her. I can't explain why this is, I've had this connection to her since the beginning. I've always felt close to her, it's something I cannot explain. She just gets through whatever block I have.

Now to point out how I feel towards other people, I am not sure if I have mentioned this before anywhere in the thread or not. Years ago (8 i think) I had a room mate who shot his GF in the head and then killed himself. I actually was trying to wrestle the gun from his hand right before it happened and was sitting next to him when he shot himself. When I called the police the dispatched asked me if I was sure they were dead, I offered to go back and double check if she didn't believe me. Then got off the phone as I had no cell reception inside the apt and wanted to get pants on before the cops got there, was in my boxers. Once the detectives were there I spent the next 2 hours pretending to be upset and shaking because they were starting to look at me funny. I miss my old best friend, and that's as much emotional reaction to it I have ever had.

And about the dangerous job, I have always enjoyed the fact its dangerous, most close calls at work don't bother me, this last one wasn't the worst because the car was only doing 35, compared to when I'm on the freeway thats nothing. It was however the closest in distance that I have been while still being dead center in front of a moving car. It did bother me at the time, but I don't think it would have if I didn't have all this other stuff with the D going on.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Last night she asked me if I could take SD on sat for her. Of course I said yes I'm all for more kid time. But following her asking and me saying yes she still felt she needed to try and explain the whole situation why she had no one to watch her. Even after I told her its fine I'm taking her she kept explaining. I got the feeling it was rehearsed like she had to hit all her talking points. That's unlike her but its what I came away with. Just figured I'd bounce that off you guys I'm probably just not used to observing so much yet and look to deeply into what I notice. 

This morning I picked the kids up, it was uneventful and quick. Only thing of note was she gave me a kiss in front of the kids, usually she tries not to even get close around them. It was a lousy little peck so I took a good one on my way out the door lol. Not sure what's up for tonight I asked what was going on tonight and I got an I don't know I'm very tired.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Not sure what's up for tonight I asked what was going on tonight and I got an* I don't know I'm very tired.*


Translation= "nothing with you, big fella"


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

This is what happens when you're passive in boundary setting.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Translation= "nothing with you, big fella"


She said the exact same thing last week and then later texted me asking if I could bring wine when I brought the kids over. I've got a lot of stuff to do at home so I'm not sitting on the edge of my seat worried about hanging out tonight, but I'd go if she offered. I'm an excellent procrastinator when it comes to stuff I have to do at home lol



06Daddio08 said:


> This is what happens when you're passive in boundary setting.


Not sure what boundary I should set, are we talking about me watching SD? I am really enjoying my time with her, more and more these days I'm not sure I want to limit it. I also should point out I like when she asks me to do something for her, its a new concept to me to wait to be asked and not just offer to fix things. Its a nice change of pace, I still say yes to everything but I haven't had a reason to say no yet.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I still say yes to everything but I haven't had a reason to say no yet.


I fairly certain she knows this. Push the Ryo button, here he comes.

What do you think would happen if you did say "no"?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Not sure I've been wondering that myself. I've considered saying no just to see but I don't want to sacrifice time with the kids so ill wait for something a little less important to say no too


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

06Daddio08 said:


> You couldn't give up gaming to save your marriage?


Just saw this. Sometimes I think this iPhone app screws post orders and page numbers up. 

Yes I could completely give up gaming to save my marriage. I've temporarily given it up to work on me, the marriage, and to make the most of my partial weeks with the kids. She has drastically cut down on her gaming time. It literally is her only thing. She has like 1 tv show and gaming. No other friends. No other hobbies. And no money to pursue other interests if she had one. I really think once her school starts her gaming will it way back I've seen how much less time she spends on it now when I'm around. And I think it's more I have nothing else i want to do I should play games than a true addiction. Only one way to find out and that's to just see where it goes. She doesn't love me enough right now to give up gaming. She is coming back around but she is still fresh off that EA which followed years of me failing fitness tests and her slowly loosing all interest. She still has feelings its just not like it used to be.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just got a text

W: 9:20 pm 2 guns at (movie theater location)

Me: ok I'll pick you up

W: I figure that lol


Looks like she is taking me to a movie. One I want to see too. Wonder if she is paying too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Just got a text
> 
> W: 9:20 pm 2 guns at (movie theater location)
> 
> ...


She invited - she pays


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Technically I invited last weekend I asked if she wanted to go see thy movie this weekend. But anyway we got there and asked if she had our tickets and she said no I thought you were going to get them. Then she said we can just go back to my place instead. I told her no its fine and bought the tickets. Then joked she should take me out sometime. 

Afterwards we got a few drinks at the bar then picked up the kids and went back to her place and watched a movie called hope springs. Was an interesting movie to watch considering the situation. Most interesting part was seeng her reactions to them going through MC and answering some of the fantasy questions he asked the couple in the movie. She would get upset at the guy in the movie for not trying in the MC lol. 

Out of time right now I'll continue the post later with what happened in the bedroom that night.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Did she pay for anything at all?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She only brought her ID. Left her purse at the apartment. So no she didn't drop a dime. I spent about $110 last night so I don't think well be going out to do anything for the next few weeks. Trying to save right now that was most of my months "going out" money.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryo said:


> She only brought her ID. Left her purse at the apartment. So no she didn't drop a dime. I spent about $110 last night so I don't think well be going out to do anything for the next few weeks. Trying to save right now that was most of my months "going out" money.


How does your back feel? Does it ever get tired of being such a doormat? You must have a pretty good washer and some kickass detergent to get all those muddy shoe prints off your back that she leaves. Might want to start marketing it to make some extra cash on the side.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Oh wait, I failed to see the little bit about how you said something "happened in the bedroom". Didn't she just tell you a day or so ago that she didn't want you coming over anymore because she didn't want you to get used to it? That she had to 'set boundaries'?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Yes she did say exactly that. She had to set boundaries and didn't want me getting used to coming over. After that movie we watched at her place we went back to the bedroom and fooled around for a while. While having sex with her I stopped because she had flipped over to face away and was hiding her face from me so I wouldn't see she was upset. When asked what was wrong she insisted I finish which I would not do. After a little prying I got her to admit that she was only sleeping with me last night because I took her to the movies and she didn't want me to think she's a tease or she was using me for going to the movies. I said so basically you'd rather sleep with me and feel I'm using you for sex than have me think you're possibly using me? She got more upset and I told her I don't want to sleep with you if that's the reason. When you WANT to sleep with me because you want to and by because you think you should that's when I want to. Then laid down next to her to go to sleep. 
After a few minutes she rolled over and we had one of the best make out sessions followed by some of the best sex I've had in years.
Afterwards she started talking about some of her issues in bed. She cant get off unless very specific things happen (I think they are tied to her father molesting her) and we talked about that connection a bit. Was a nice night she slept scooted back by me all night which is unusual as she normally sprawls out and doesn't want to be held. This morning I brought in a bag with deodorant, tooth brush, razor, and shaving cream and am keeping those things there now. I will be back over there later tonight.

Edit: she wants to stay at my place tonight. On her way over now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> After a few minutes she rolled over and we had one of the best make out sessions followed by some of the best sex I've had in years.


This is what happens when you start passing fitness tests.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

nothing special about last night. watched a movie, got some tacos which I forgot to special order hers so she got mad said I failed lol. Don't think she was very happy when I failed to offer to go get her some more, she went and did it herself. After the movie we just went to bed, everyone was tired. 

This morning she made a comment about my lack of pillows at my place, complaining about how I should have more. I just told her maybe she should have me stay at her place instead of coming to mine. When she left she says, "I think it would be easier on the kids if you stayed at my place tonight" lol so looks like were over there tonight.

one thing I'm wondering about. Every time one of us stays the night at the others house there is a reason why its convenient. Its usually not a very good one but she has to have it. Last nights was I have a printer that can make copies. She had 1 copy to make, and works right next door to a copy place (like 100 ft next door). Tonights reason I am staying at her place is she has to fax something in the morning and doesn't want to wake the kids up before 10am... 
why the excuses for us staying the night at each others houses? They obviously are not good excuses, maybe they are just for the kids? I've never bothered to come up with one, she uses them to invite me over or invite herself to my place which is fine. I've never noticed her telling the kids why were staying over, so I've wondered if they are really just her making excuses to herself, or feeling she needs to justify to me why were staying over. Either way I told her today she doesn't need a reason to invite me to come over, just invite me over.

been a less than interesting night maybe I'm just looking for something to think about. lol

Also on track to have everything fixed on my car for labor day trip to Utah. I'm taking both the kids fishing at a friends place in the mountains, and offered to cut the trip short (leaving a day later) so she can go with us without missing work if she wants to go. Typical we will see answer from her. I'm going as long as the cars done she is welcome to come along or stay behind.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

We spent today together nothing special. She got a call and had a job interview tomorrow afternoon she asked me over to her place again tonight. 

She asked me if I would BBQ ribs if she bought everything, I told her sure and asked when. She wanted to this Friday but I told her I'm too busy this week to take on my ribs. They take a full days work. She took a no just fine. Basically was like ok well don't worry about it well do it another time. So I offered to BBQ anything easy this weekend. Steaks on her I just have to cook them Friday night. It's nice not being the one footing the bill but that's only because they give her way more $ in food stamps than she uses.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

So let me get this straight .... spending time with your wife like you've been begging to get, it's nothing special?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> nothing special about last night. watched a movie, got some tacos which I forgot to special order hers so she got mad said I failed lol. Don't think she was very happy when I failed to offer to go get her some more, she went and did it herself. After the movie we just went to bed, everyone was tired.
> 
> This morning she made a comment about my lack of pillows at my place, complaining about how I should have more. I just told her maybe she should have me stay at her place instead of coming to mine. When she left she says, "I think it would be easier on the kids if you stayed at my place tonight" lol so looks like were over there tonight.
> 
> ...


"I'm not ok with hearing excuses about why I'm to come over"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

06Daddio08 said:


> So let me get this straight .... spending time with your wife like you've been begging to get, it's nothing special?


That made me laugh I could have worded that a lot better. Meant that there's not a whole lot worthy of posting. 

Conrad I told her she doesn't need excuses to invite me over. Not surprisingly she used the same tactic today to invite me over for tonight, again in front of the kids but I don't know if that's her reason for having an excuse.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> That made me laugh I could have worded that a lot better. Meant that there's not a whole lot worthy of posting.
> 
> Conrad I told her she doesn't need excuses to invite me over. Not surprisingly she used the same tactic today to invite me over for tonight, again in front of the kids but I don't know if that's her reason for having an excuse.


Next time she gives you an excuse, say no.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Next time she gives you an excuse, say no.


Conrad's right. Then in about 10 to 15 minutes she'll be blowing up your phone incensed limbic brain in overdrive-experienced it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She actually would probably take it fine. Tomorrow she has a job interview, something I really don't mind helping her with lol. 

On the next excuse when I say no. Should I explain or just politely decline staying over that night? And when asked why what then a truthful "I'm tired of you needing an excuse to have me over"? I'm not good at "no" as you can tell.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> She actually would probably take it fine. Tomorrow she has a job interview, something I really don't mind helping her with lol.
> 
> On the next excuse when I say no. Should I explain or just politely decline staying over that night? And when asked why what then a truthful "I'm tired of you needing an excuse to have me over"? I'm not good at "no" as you can tell.


Never use the word "you"

"I'm not ok with the excuses"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Never use the word "you"
> 
> "I'm not ok with the excuses"


Oh man I can see how the word "you" sure would change how that was taken.

Off this topic but I forgot to mention this earlier. Caught myself as I was just about to fail a fitness test today. She asked me to come look at something in her room and started complaining "I havnt had this problem since I lived with you" there was a smudge on the door lol. So I told her I come home from work dirty, she replies well you can wash your hands or clean up after yourself. I started to argue by saying that I do wash my hands, my clothes are still dirty and Its kind of hard to see a smudge on the door when I don't turn the lights on so you can sleep. She started to say something else Then I simply wiped it off with my thumb laughed and said I can't believe you complain about this and walked out of the room. Didn't hear another word about it. 

Maybe not the best reaction but I'm just glad I for once noticed what was going on while it was happening.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Oh man I can see how the word "you" sure would change how that was taken.
> 
> Off this topic but I forgot to mention this earlier. Caught myself as I was just about to fail a fitness test today. She asked me to come look at something in her room and started complaining "I havnt had this problem since I lived with you" there was a smudge on the door lol. So I told her I come home from work dirty, she replies well you can wash your hands or clean up after yourself. I started to argue by saying that I do wash my hands, my clothes are still dirty and Its kind of hard to see a smudge on the door when I don't turn the lights on so you can sleep. She started to say something else Then I simply wiped it off with my thumb laughed and said I can't believe you complain about this and walked out of the room. Didn't hear another word about it.
> 
> Maybe not the best reaction but I'm just glad I for once noticed what was going on while it was happening.


Look at her with a sly grin, slowly wipe it off with your finger and mutter.... my fingers are multi-talented.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Look at her with a sly grin, slowly wipe it off with your finger and mutter.... my fingers are multi-talented.


I have such a long way to go... That's a good one.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stick around a while Ryo, next he'll have you sucking her fingers and telling her how talented your tongue is too.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So what's the next step in this process for me? Just go with it and see where things go giving her the space/time she says she needs, or should I be trying to steer our relationship towards the next step.

Things are a lot better now that I'm improving in the fitness test dept. still a long way to go but improving.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryo said:


> So what's the next step in this process for me? Just go with it and see where things go giving her the space/time she says she needs, or should I be trying to steer our relationship towards the next step.
> 
> Things are a lot better now that I'm improving in the fitness test dept. still a long way to go but improving.


Focus on you, start figuring out what your boundaries are and live life according to them. Stop being scared of losing her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> So what's the next step in this process for me? Just go with it and see where things go giving her the space/time she says she needs, or should I be trying to steer our relationship towards the next step.
> 
> Things are a lot better now that I'm improving in the fitness test dept. still a long way to go but improving.


You've said you don't wish to let her go.

Keep giving her space and distance - see where she takes it.

(No fixing)


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Really wish the courts were not run by the Govt. they can't seem to get anything right. Filed to vacate the court date last week on Friday and its still not posted as filed. Judges assistant thinks it was possibly rejected and the person at the counter failed to mention it. Luckily the mediator is filing for a continuance for me (which requires the judges approval) 2 days before the court date lol great.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

court granted a 90 day continuance thankfully. I was so stressed out yesterday about this that I screwed up pretty good last night at work. Luckily my boss knows whats going on and cut me a break, I'm sure his boss knows about it by now though. The paperwork I filed last week still never showed up in the system. Wonder what happened.

options for tomorrow... do brakes on my car, or go to the lake lol.
then later bbq'n steaks my W bought at my place.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> court granted a 90 day continuance thankfully. I was so stressed out yesterday about this that I screwed up pretty good last night at work. Luckily my boss knows whats going on and cut me a break, I'm sure his boss knows about it by now though. The paperwork I filed last week still never showed up in the system. Wonder what happened.
> 
> options for tomorrow... do brakes on my car, or go to the lake lol.
> then later bbq'n steaks my W bought at my place.


More details.

What do those options include?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> More details.
> 
> What do those options include?


buddy of mine is taking his boat out tomorrow and I'm invited, with the kids.

have a lot of things i need to get done though so I might not go. probably shouldn't go to the lake need to get all this stuff done before my labor day trip. Also still BBQing at about 8pm.

I've been re-reading parts of my thread this week as I find time. I missed posting something last week, that's the problem with trying to post discreetly on my phone at her place. 

Last week on Friday night after everything that happened in the bedroom, when going to sleep she asked if she could watch me sleep with another woman. I cant believe I forgot to put this in that post. My answer was of course no. (just a reminder my wife will answer just about anything honestly after some drinks) So I asked her why, she simply said she thinks it would help her let go and move on. ??? I do not get the way she thinks, she is obviously enjoying having me around again, between comments like this and the other week her asking why I would even want her, then her admission to the EA and it being wrong. Do you think she is possibly having issues with the fact she had an EA, she is the type of person to beat herself up over her mistakes more than most people would. I'm not going to try and fix this for her, its her issue but I am curious as to what on earth is going on inside her head.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Guilt maybe.

You absolutely sure she hasn't had a PA, recently or sometime in the past?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

in her mind the PA wasn't a PA. Her EA turned PA after she left me. I think she understands it was a PA but chooses to hide behind the "I already left you so it wasn't wrong" excuse. You know that look a kid gets when they are forced to admit they did something wrong and knew it was wrong? That's her when we talk about it, I know she feels bad it couldn't be any more obvious. Thank you Conrad for teaching me to watch her physical reactions, its payed off tons here.

She had the EA from Jan-March then moved out. 
slept with her neighbor a one night deal 2-3 weeks later
her EA flew to town for an unknown time period (internet EA) 2 months after she had moved out and she slept with him.

I have asked her if I know everything now, she said yes and I believe her.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryo said:


> *in her mind the PA wasn't a PA*. Her EA turned PA after she left me. I think she understands it was a PA but chooses to hide behind the "I already left you so it wasn't wrong" excuse. You know that look a kid gets when they are forced to admit they did something wrong and knew it was wrong? That's her when we talk about it, I know she feels bad it couldn't be any more obvious. Thank you Conrad for teaching me to watch her physical reactions, its payed off tons here.
> 
> She had the EA from Jan-March then moved out.
> slept with her neighbor a one night deal 2-3 weeks later
> ...


Doesn't matter what 'she thinks' in regards to this, it's what you are and are not okay with. How sure are you that this midnight window peeper wasn't actually a PA?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

No idea why he would go to a window with a lot of black widows in the bushes instead of the front door. Also she was scared for days to stay at her place. My W is very readable when she is being dishonest or even only telling half truths, I know when she is lying to me


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

It's entirely possible that the reasons she is keeping you around doesn't match up with the reasons *you think* she is keeping you around.

We tend to see what we want to see, especially if we have codependency issues.

Stop thinking that everyone thinks like you do.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> It's entirely possible that the reasons she is keeping you around doesn't match up with the reasons *you think* she is keeping you around.
> 
> We tend to see what we want to see, especially if we have codependency issues.
> 
> Stop thinking that everyone thinks like you do.


this is exactly why I post some things here. To get alternate views on them, and some things I just post to think out loud here I have to do that somewhere and you guys still put up with me


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> this is exactly why I post some things here. To get alternate views on them, and some things I just post to think out loud here I have to do that somewhere and you guys still put up with me


As best we can, we traffic in truth here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> in her mind the PA wasn't a PA. Her EA turned PA after she left me. I think she understands it was a PA but chooses to hide behind the "I already left you so it wasn't wrong" excuse. You know that look a kid gets when they are forced to admit they did something wrong and knew it was wrong? That's her when we talk about it, I know she feels bad it couldn't be any more obvious. Thank you Conrad for teaching me to watch her physical reactions, its payed off tons here.
> 
> She had the EA from Jan-March then moved out.
> slept with her neighbor a one night deal 2-3 weeks later
> ...


Ryo,

Sadly, it's a common theme.

Spouses want "separation" and "space". Those among them with childhood issues often think black/white. Emotionally, the consider themselves "divorced" the minute you're gone.

Yes, it's infantile thinking.

Yes, it's common.

And, yes, it's forgiveable.

Strong boundaries going forward will make it clear that this sort of b.s. means "it's over"... no more games.


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

"Last week on Friday night after everything that happened in the bedroom, when going to sleep she asked if she could watch me sleep with another woman."

That is a trap if I have ever seen one. That puts you in the position of dealing with guilt and gives her a clear conscience to hit the road.

I hate to say it but she seems already gone to me. She does things to put her mind at ease and is probably working her exit plan.

You should really get your head around your relationship coming to an end, sorry.

Be careful friend,
Stretch


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stretch said:


> "Last week on Friday night after everything that happened in the bedroom, when going to sleep she asked if she could watch me sleep with another woman."
> 
> Stretch


Ryo,

If you want a life with her going forward, this is a bridge you should never even consider crossing.

Don't make a big deal over it.

Just cool, firm, dispassionately say the following words:

"I'm not ok sharing myself with anyone but you"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I just told her no. Asked why and left it alone. It could have been the Zanex talking her doc put her on it and she takes it at night and gets a little odd. 

Picked the kids up, got a big smile and she was happy to see me. I hung out and played with the kids till my friend was ready for me to come over and work on my car. Haven't had my W happy to see me like this in years it's nice.

For the BBQ she bought porter houses, they give people way too much $$ for food stamps but that's another topic all together.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Living on food stamps, has her husband around to cook and pay for outings. Gets sex whenever she wants, damn, I'm starting to get jealous.

She's living quite the life!


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Ryo,
> 
> Sadly, it's a common theme.
> 
> ...


completely missed this post earlier today (thanks tap a talk for making an app that correctly shows first unread post LOL) 

infantile, common, forgivable. that is what I was thinking. This post makes me happy, I am not nuts for being willing to try to move past this.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Living on food stamps, has her husband around to cook and pay for outings. Gets sex whenever she wants, damn, I'm starting to get jealous.
> 
> She's living quite the life!


The website the politicalcesspool.org shows a receipt of someone buying like 7 lobsters off a link card, too funny.


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## GoHogs (Aug 17, 2013)

Although I'm pretty much going through the same things you are, and I'm new to this site I do have one quote that I'm clinging to a lot here lately. "What matters most is how well you walk through the fire" Charles Bukowski. The Melatonin does help with sleep! Don't be afraid of anti-depressants either, they help regulate brain function which is a good thing as of late. You're a good Dad, or you wouldn't be worried about your son - just be there and love him, the rest will work itself out sooner or later. I have total empathy for you and I hope that things start looking brighter soon!


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks gohogs. This site is very helpful I wouldn't stand a chance without these people. Wish you were not going through something similar, have you started a thread? On my phone or I'd look.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> completely missed this post earlier today (thanks tap a talk for making an app that correctly shows first unread post LOL)
> 
> infantile, common, forgivable. that is what I was thinking. This post makes me happy, I am not nuts for being willing to try to move past this.


As she experiences respect for you (which is why you stop fixing things until she asks... which is why you don't come over when she makes excuses to have you there...), it dawns on her that you are not the source of all her problems.

In fact, you are someone she needs to pursue honestly.

5 year olds learn this way.

Your wife can learn this way also.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Last night she asked me when we had a brief moment alone why I was nice to her. (I'm not sure if she feels she doesn't deserve it or if she is worried I'll be a resentful not so nice nice guy again in the future or both)

I asked her what she meant and why she thought I was nice to her.

W: you weren't always nice, you can be an ahole, I think you want something.

I told her that I know I was and can be an ahole but I am nice to her because I still love her and what I want is her and the kids back. That what I don't want is the relationship the way it was before, I'm not interested in that it doesn't work. I want a healthy relationship with her.

Later that night she talked a little bit about how "messed up she is with the guy stuff" I couldn't help bit chuckle a little, tell her I know and then remind her that despite how much of it she has told me its never stopped me before from wanting her in my life. 

She is still concerned that bringing me back into SD's life as dad isn't a good idea. She says things like "I think I could have picked a better dad for her", "I don't know if you're what she needs in her life", and "you don't have enough compassion and empathy for what she is going to need". She still sees HER telling SD I didn't love and didn't want her when she was trying to get me to take both kids 50/50 and rape me in support as ME abandoning her because I wasn't ok with that deal. No idea what to do with this, I've told her I do love SD, just not the same as S4 they are different. I've also told her I was a mess after she left and didn't know what to do, her response is "you had a few days to change your mind before I told her" All I had for that was that it takes a lot longer than "a few days" to get past what happened and get your head on straight again.

Something interesting I noticed last night. over the duration of our marriage she would scoot away from me at night, saying she was hot. I cuddle, dunno why but its how I like to sleep, might be because I'm always cold. Last few weeks she has been ok with that, last night she was roasting me, if I was burning up she had to have been hot yet she was following me across the bed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> She is still concerned that bringing me back into SD's life as dad isn't a good idea. She says things like "I think I could have picked a better dad for her", "I don't know if you're what she needs in her life", and "you don't have enough compassion and empathy for what she is going to need".


"I'm sorry you feel that way"

C'mon brother.

You know this.

Shut this sort of crap down.

No explaining.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I've got to get better at that. It never occurred to me during that conversation to just shut it down. I

Last night in bed she had one of her moments she had where she doesn't want anyone touching her. She gets like that at times. Then when we didn't sleep together se apologized saying so I asked her why and she said because I know that's why you come over. I simply told her that is not the reason I come over but I do like it. She responded saying "you're better off without me I'm too messed up for anyone right now" she brought all this up while I was half way asleep so I responded telling her its a good thing I think more long term than right now, you'll get things figured out. 

Might not be word for word might have missed stuff I was almost asleep when that conversation happened. 

Ce back over for a little bit before work today, she asked me to stay over without an excuse. "You staying here tonight?" I said yeah I would love to, then came the excuse lol but this one might not have been directed to me looked more like it was said to SD who walked up as we were talking. "Good it's easier on the kids" or "the kids like it" or something along those lines.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>She responded saying "you're better off without me I'm too messed up for anyone right now" she brought all this up while I was half way asleep so I responded telling her its a good thing I think more long term than right now, you'll get things figured out.<<

I don't like where this conversation is headed


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Sunday night she baked me my favorite cookies (chocolate chip, which she is not fond of) and was waiting for me in a little nighty after work. Stayed last night also. 

Today my therapist asked me why I haven't asked her to move back in together. Therapist thinks I should a: ask if I can move in, or b: push to get to staying together 5 nights a week instead of 4 and then ask. I'm not so sure this is the best idea. I'm worried that pushing to fast will just push her away, or have us right back where we were before she left in a relationship that isn't going to work. What do you think? I also think my wife fails to actively try and progress the relationship and I feel that when the time is right it will be up to me to suggest it or it won't happen.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Now that I've had a night to think on it I'm sure. Trying to move in is a bad move. She's not ready, and I'm not happy with the state of her place its a wreck I'm not asking to live here lol. 

Last night when I was talking to her she mentioned she really wanted a steak, so I asked her if she would like me to get 2 on my way over tonight (she hadn't asked me to come over) got a quick ok without a hint of the fact i wasn't expected over. and then got off then phone was busy at work but that's 5 nights in a row staying with her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Let her win you back.

Do not ask.

Remember, with people like her, her ideas are "good"

Others, not so much.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Lol isn't that the truth. Drives me nuts waiting for things to be her idea but you are right. 

Today was interesting. She had a bit of a breakdown. What I've learned. She is a month behind on all her bills, we've known one months rent is on a crest card so far. She doesn't have the money to pay rent and can't put another month on her card. Financial aid for school has not come through, she just dropped her classes this morning. No classes = no financial aid = no applying for grants. Her one class she needed to take this semester a lab opened up but she has no one to watch the kids. Next month if she is still without a better job one of the welfare programs she is on will require her to volunteer her time at organizations to stay on the program. Unless she is in school. 

Basically everything is falling apart for her. I'm not sure what to do I want to help but I know I cannot unless asked. What help should I be willing to offer? I do not want to see her forced to move out of state, that's not an option. 

She asked me today if her lab for a science class opens up at a time of day she can take it if I would front her $300 and she would repay me when financial aid repaid her. I agreed but only for that one class not for the ones she doesn't need this semester (that's why she dropped those this morning) that would keep her on her program from welfare at least.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If she asks and you are "ok" with doing it with no payback, then it's ok.

If it's going to spur resentment and you start thinking about how it will be ok if "everything" works out... say you're not ok with it.

You have ZERO control of "everything" working out.

And, it is possible the unraveling of her life is what brought you back. That's not a death sentence for the relationship.

But, be mindful of it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I think I'm at the point I am helping as much as I am willing to do without working on the relationship. Fronting her $ for that class was a stretch for me but I can see the reward if it prolongs her welfare checks and keeps her in town / keeps her not desperate enough to talk R strictly for the money. Making that a necessary move.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I think I'm at the point I am helping as much as I am willing to do without working on the relationship. Fronting her $ for that class was a stretch for me but I can see the reward if it prolongs her welfare checks and keeps her in town / keeps her not desperate enough to talk R strictly for the money. Making that a necessary move.


Front it one time.

Literally, take the money out of your wallet and kiss it goodbye before you hand it to her.

Make note of whether you get what she's promised.

The next request becomes easier to navigate.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

No wonder she's been so "friendly".

<shaking head> sigh....


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

ok so I'm fronting her the money for that class, she is giving me her wedding ring set from her first marriage to sell and return the money minus the fees to ebay it and the money for the class. I don't mind listing the ring for her, I've actually had it listed once before trying to sell it but I was trying to get top dollar back then for it then as we didn't need the money terribly.

Conrad you said the unraveling of her life might be the reason I'm back in it, and that that is not the death of the relationship. Can you elaborate on this. More specifically why its apparently not terrible for it to be part or most of her motivation at this point. I'm suspecting you are meaning that she realizes/or will realize I did a lot and she will appreciate it more, especially since I wait to be asked now on most things =)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When she asks you for things, and you are good enough to do them (when no one else will), appreciation may grow.

But, it simply must not be automatic.

And, they MUST not be #3's.

This dynamic has the potential to wake her up.

She was completely in the fog before - and devalued you.

You can see how her actually appreciating you - and seeing you as you are - will raise your value.

Stay @50k


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When she asks you for things, and you are good enough to do them (when no one else will), appreciation may grow.
> 
> But, it simply must not be automatic.
> 
> ...


Staying at 50K will help you differentiate between being appreciated, and being used as her tool.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Staying at 50K will help you differentiate between being appreciated, and being used as her tool.


Much better - and more concise


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I wouldn't take a ring that has some sort of symbolic meaning, but never mind.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

her first marriage was meaningless. she dumped him, then found out she was pregnant so they got back together and got married. That of course didn't last long. The ring has no symbolic value to her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> her first marriage was meaningless. she dumped him, then found out she was pregnant so they got back together and got married. That of course didn't last long. The ring has no symbolic value to her.


That sounds like kind of a red flag.

From 50k, wouldn't you agree?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Is the red flag the fact that she got back together with him due to the pregnancy or the fact the marriage was meaningless? 

It was meaningless. My understanding of it was he left him because he was a pill popping looser they hadn't dated long and then found out she was pregnant so she got back with him when he promised to change. And married him because she felt she should for the kid. 

He didnt change. When she left him the second time He quit his welding job because he disliked it, moved in with his mom who also has a pill problem and worked at McDonald's.

She was 21. We all think idealistically at that age don't we? I did.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

So I was not expecting to go to her place tonight but was going to be there first thing in the morning to get the kids. 

Got this text: can you bring me some tea for the morning when you come tonight?

She's thrown out a few comments similar to what I've seen in the fitness test thread tonight and I have to admit deflecting them with humor and confidence and not taking them seriously at all sure is a better approach.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> So I was not expecting to go to her place tonight but was going to be there first thing in the morning to get the kids.
> 
> Got this text: can you bring me some tea for the morning when you come tonight?
> 
> She's thrown out a few comments similar to what I've seen in the fitness test thread tonight and I have to admit deflecting them with humor and confidence and not taking them seriously at all sure is a better approach.


Stay the course brother.

The Fitness Test thread is a kind of Bible.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Her class opened up that she needs to take but it would require her to have someone to get S4 ready for and to school (or on the bus from her place) Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. I have a feeling she is going to ask me to be able to help her with this. How willing should I be this is a big commitment on my part if she asks and I help yet I get no commitment from her to work on anything. Also it would have me staying at her place most nights which isn't a bad thing, would be better if I had a key and my stuff was here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Her class opened up that she needs to take but it would require her to have someone to get S4 ready for and to school (or on the bus from her place) Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. I have a feeling she is going to ask me to be able to help her with this. How willing should I be this is a big commitment on my part if she asks and I help yet I get no commitment from her to work on anything. Also it would have me staying at her place most nights which isn't a bad thing, would be better if I had a key and my stuff was here.


"I'm not ok being a husband only when it suits you, if you need this from me as a husband and father, then commit to the marriage"

See how strong this sounds?

She wants something - she knows the price.

If she's not willing? Then, you're not ok with #3's.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I like it and its the truth.

It's a long shot she will get in the class and get in at one of the campuses near her and have it be a time of day I am not at work. But if she does she will ask. And I'm not on board with taking care of getting the kids ready for school 3 days a week when I work until 2-4am without a commitment from her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I like it and its the truth.
> 
> It's a long shot she will get in the class and get in at one of the campuses near her and have it be a time of day I am not at work. But if she does she will ask. And I'm not on board with taking care of getting the kids ready for school 3 days a week when I work until 2-4am without a commitment from her.


This is how you do it.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She gave me a key this afternoon when I asked if she was going to be up to let me in tonight. She did it with this odd smile on her face. It's taken me all night to place when I usually see this look on her face. It usually accompanies an admission of guilt/embarrassment. Get the feeling she knows giving me a key is a big deal but she doesn't want to admit it.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ryo said:


> She gave me a key this afternoon when I asked if she was going to be up to let me in tonight. She did it with this odd smile on her face. It's taken me all night to place when I usually see this look on her face. It usually accompanies an admission of guilt/embarrassment. Get the feeling she knows giving me a key is a big deal but she doesn't want to admit it.


Like a singer said "move it over the big old dog is moving in"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> She gave me a key this afternoon when I asked if she was going to be up to let me in tonight. She did it with this odd smile on her face. It's taken me all night to place when I usually see this look on her face. It usually accompanies an admission of guilt/embarrassment. Get the feeling she knows giving me a key is a big deal but she doesn't want to admit it.


Don't talk about it.

Just act on it.

Cool, firm, dispassionate, and confident.

Happy ending here.

Congratulations brother - no one deserves it more than you.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Let the stand off begin. She got into the class. Requires someone to get S4 ready and to school Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday of which only Thursday is my responsibility. She has not asked me to do it but has just repeatedly been "thinking out loud" her various options which she doesn't really have any. I'm not taking the bait and fixing she will ask eventually if I can help, or she will find another way. 

I'm staying over again tonight (6 nights in. Row now) and getting my favorite dinner from her which she doesn't even really like as thank you for helping her today with the kids. 

I went out and bought myself a gift today. A new ruger LCP 380 I've had my eye on and some stuff to go with it. It's more money than I've spent on myself in years ($700 total with ammo) without first selling something. Her comment "I thought you were trying to save money" lol something tells me she is still not ok with the things I want to buy for me. Oh and my response was something along the line of "I did save money AND bought a new toy."

Utah trip might get canceled her class would cut it down to one night not sure it's worth it at this point.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Let the stand off begin. She got into the class. Requires someone to get S4 ready and to school Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday of which only Thursday is my responsibility. She has not asked me to do it but has just repeatedly been "thinking out loud" her various options which she doesn't really have any. I'm not taking the bait and fixing she will ask eventually if I can help, or she will find another way.
> 
> I'm staying over again tonight (6 nights in. Row now) and getting my favorite dinner from her which she doesn't even really like as thank you for helping her today with the kids.
> 
> ...


Do not cancel it until you get her commitment.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I was considering that. Just going without her. 

Found something out today. Technically me staying over even one night or eating dinner at her place constitutes welfare fraud which is a: retarded and b: a felony.

By staying one night at he apartment I am supposed to be listed as an income earner for the household lol. Basically she's in trouble if they catch me there. I can't tell her this or she would more than likely just say I can't come over anymore. She needs to get this figure out I'm all hit living there at this point. 

I slipped tonight and said I should be off work and "home" at a reasonable hour. She had a "uh huh" reaction like I heard you say that and I don't like it. Don't think she is any where near it being her idea for my things to follow me to her place lol.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I was considering that. Just going without her.
> 
> Found something out today. Technically me staying over even one night or eating dinner at her place constitutes welfare fraud which is a: retarded and b: a felony.
> 
> ...


Power of observation.

She's the welfare "cheat."

Let her worry about that.

Don't you just love gubbermint?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Do more talk less...

Put my ring back on. I've been wanting to do this for a while now but was waiting till I thought she would. Now I'm just doing it because I want to and want to see what she does. She hasn't noticed yet (I'm still in bed, put it on before bed)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Do more talk less...
> 
> Put my ring back on. I've been wanting to do this for a while now but was waiting till I thought she would. Now I'm just doing it because I want to and want to see what she does. She hasn't noticed yet (I'm still in bed, put it on before bed)


If you want to wear it, wear it.

If she asks about it, you put it on because you wanted to.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

S4 is home from school sick with a 102 fever. Think Utah trip is canceled regardless now. 

I'm coming back over again tonight after work. I basically live here now but none of my stuff is here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> S4 is home from school sick with a 102 fever. Think Utah trip is canceled regardless now.
> 
> I'm coming back over again tonight after work. I basically live here now but none of my stuff is here.


Start moving in.

Talk less - do more.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Like what a little at a time. Bring my clothes over and then a hamper over another day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Like what a little at a time. Bring my clothes over and then a hamper over another day.


Yes


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Canceled the Utah trip due to S4 being very sick and the weather. Scheduled a 6 hour session at my tattoo artist instead.

Brought a big bag of clothes over today and will bring more this weekend.

She keeps complaining about how complicated her life is now, just thought I'd share with you guys the fact all I can think about is she made it that way. Her
Doctor thinks she has carpal tunnel in her left wrist now. She's been trying to find somewhere to go get a wrist splint that will bill insurance for it because she can't afford the splint. Resisting the urge to just buy it for her, but only barely.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

She asked what I was doing with the kids today and I told her I was going to run home and get a few things I had a lot of laundry to do. She told me I can do it here, which I was planning on. Time to go grab a lot of clothes. Maybe ill bring a toaster and blender too she doesn't have those and I miss a toaster. Sadly rent is due time to go waste $500 on a room I don't use.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Canceled the Utah trip due to S4 being very sick and the weather. Scheduled a 6 hour session at my tattoo artist instead.
> 
> Brought a big bag of clothes over today and will bring more this weekend.
> 
> ...


Every time you feel the urge to buy it, submit a post here

RE-SIST


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Would you spend $500.00 for this kind of clarity?


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Every time you feel the urge to buy it, submit a post here
> 
> RE-SIST


That's why I added it to that post. She came home later having bought the wrist brace herself.

I have been looking at cats online at the shelter I miss having one and as soon as I move in to her place (she wants a cat anyway) I plan on getting one. Or if I get an apartment instead ill get a cat then. Basically it's just something I was bored and looked into yesterday she found the cat adoptions page open and went all cat nuts lol. Problem is she can't afford the deposit but was wanting to go get a cat anyway I had to talk her out of it because they fine you at her apartments $50 a day for avoiding the deposit. I will not pay that pet deposit even if she were to ask which she won't.

It's funny how she still sits and complains her life is so complicated, or she has no money. Sometimes she even says it like its not her fault she had an EA and left with no real job. I just ignore her best i can when she complains about it but I have to post about it or tell someone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> That's why I added it to that post. She came home later having bought the wrist brace herself.
> 
> I have been looking at cats online at the shelter I miss having one and as soon as I move in to her place (she wants a cat anyway) I plan on getting one. Or if I get an apartment instead ill get a cat then. Basically it's just something I was bored and looked into yesterday she found the cat adoptions page open and went all cat nuts lol. Problem is she can't afford the deposit but was wanting to go get a cat anyway I had to talk her out of it because they fine you at her apartments $50 a day for avoiding the deposit. I will not pay that pet deposit even if she were to ask which she won't.
> 
> It's funny how she still sits and complains her life is so complicated, or she has no money. Sometimes she even says it like its not her fault she had an EA and left with no real job. I just ignore her best i can when she complains about it but I have to post about it or tell someone.


All things come to he who waits.

Stay the course brother.

Keep your own counsel.

Do not fix.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Haha you'll love this, on the way back to her apartment SD and S4 were talking. He wanted to "go dads house" and she told him no dad lives at the apartment now he just leaves his stuff at his house and we get to go get it when he needs something. Lol that's great, wonder what my W would say if she heard that lmao.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Haha you'll love this, on the way back to her apartment SD and S4 were talking. He wanted to "go dads house" and she told him no dad lives at the apartment now he just leaves his stuff at his house and we get to go get it when he needs something. Lol that's great, wonder what my W would say if she heard that lmao.


Truly funny.

Stay the course brother.

You have the upper hand now.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Haha you'll love this, on the way back to her apartment *SD and S4* were talking. He wanted to "go dads house" and she told him no dad lives at the apartment now he just leaves his stuff at his house and we get to go get it when he needs something. Lol that's great, wonder what my W would say if she heard that lmao.


You have partisans that are fighting for your cause.

Your wife has no chance now....

Patience. The dice are rolling in your favor.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> You have partisans that are fighting for your cause.
> 
> Your wife has no chance now....
> 
> Patience. The dice are rolling in your favor.


You have her right were you want her and she doesn't even know it. eh that's a good thing.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

tom67 said:


> You have her right were you want her and she doesn't even know it. eh that's a good thing.


They all have her right where they all want her.....


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> They all have her right where they all want her.....


Life is good when you're not codependent no?:smthumbup:


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Life is good when you're not codependent no?:smthumbup:


I'm learning. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm no longer codependent but I am trying. I have to say there's a significant difference in how things work when I do not fix freely without being asked. Still waiting to see if she will ask me to watch the kids for all her classes or as I suspect she will just take it one class at a time to avoid asking for a lot at once.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I'm learning. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm no longer codependent but I am trying. I have to say there's a significant difference in how things work when I do not fix freely without being asked. Still waiting to see if she will ask me to watch the kids for all her classes or as I suspect she will just take it one class at a time to avoid asking for a lot at once.


Your self realization is a BIG BIG step.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

I'll be honest guys...

I cringe when I read what's going on here.

Ryo,

I know you are learning not to fix things, and you're resisting buying things for her.

But what I see is this: by spending more time at her place, you *are* *fixing* things for her. She needs someone to play the role you are playing. Someone to be there for the kids while she is in school. Someone to share the rent (you will when you move back, right?). Someone to provide emotional security while she embarks on a new chapter of her life.

I just have this crummy feeling that she's using you. She's manipulating you with sex and companionship to get exactly what she wants. Maybe I'm paranoid because I fell for similar behaviors following my ex's first affair....who knows?

I just have a very bad feeling here.

Tread carefully. Do not fall back into old patterns. Insist on IC and MC for both of you.

Evaluate yourself. Do you love her? or the idealized her?

If you were single, would you date her, knowing what you know now?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: confused and dont know what to do*



ThreeStrikes said:


> I'll be honest guys...
> 
> I cringe when I read what's going on here.
> 
> ...


You're not alone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'll be honest guys...
> 
> I cringe when I read what's going on here.
> 
> ...


Strikes,

There's risk associated with every course of action.

Is there risk here? Of course. She's already proven herself unreliable.

But, he loves her and he needs this information to figure out the rest of his life.

I think it's great that he's getting through to her. It certainly beats the guys who feel like losers because their wife checks out and never - ever - looks back.

He gets to go into this eyes open... and he knows the risks.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Strikes,
> 
> There's risk associated with every course of action.
> 
> ...


I suppose that's the entire point of R.

A known risk versus starting with someone new.

I just can't help but think Ryo is rugsweeping. I'd hate to see him back here in a year.

It's his journey, though.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: confused and dont know what to do*



ThreeStrikes said:


> I suppose that's the entire point of R.
> 
> A known risk versus starting with someone new.
> 
> ...


He will come to his own conclusion when he's ready, it's up to him how long he wants to hold out and see if she ever decides to stop playing the victim.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I suppose that's the entire point of R.
> 
> A known risk versus starting with someone new.
> 
> ...


He and I have communicated often through PM.

He really does love this woman - and wants a life with her.

Since that's his goal, this is the clear-eyed path towards it.

And, yes, the risks are quite clear to him.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

It is a very risky relationship I often wonder if I am being used. But I've started to look at it like this, walk away and wonder if I was wrong forever or try and see what happens and one way or the other knowing will be less painful than wondering. I'd even say odds are not in my favor just looking at facts. 

If I moved in officially yes I would share the rent and utilities. If I move in officially she can't hide me and keep welfare going so she wouldn't be able to afford her half. We would have to financially be one again and that won't happen without some MC because we need to learn to work together this time around. 

Even as things are I am much happier here at her apartment than I was on my own. Things are different between us she asks and is thankful when I do things for her, she does still seem to try and have me do stuff without asking but overall I think things are getting better. And I love being here with the kids too.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Went and spent 5 hours yesterday getting my tattoo worked on then we were supposed to go out. Had it set up to drop the kids at my moms and go to dinner and a movie (moms is 20 miles away from her place) she wanted me to just put then in the daycare at the casino so we didn't have to drive across town (that would cost me about $22 an hour) I said no my mom is a free babysitter and gas is way cheaper I'm not blowing $60 on child care so we can watch a movie. She got a little upset about going to a movie on the trashy side of town so we didn't go. We all went to the buffet out here instead. I don't think she's too upset about not getting her way but she used to always get things her way. 

Another thing interesting. The other day I did laundry here and I put one of her shirts on her bed clean. She threw it back into my clothes later. I found it and said something to which she replied that's not mine it's your girlfriends. And I don't appreciate you bringing them over here when I'm not home. I told her its her shirt and tossed it back in her bed. I just found it folded up in my clothes again. Last night she made a comment about me "catching up with my girlfriend" while I was reading on my phone. I'm not sure what to do with all the GF accusations but I've been here what 9 nights in a row where am I having this relationship? Logic is clearly not being used in this but she clearly cares if I had a GF that's good. She keeps telling me its ok that I am seeing someone else, not sure where to go with this as I've tried the logical and I've tried the dismissing it quickly and it has come up a few times in the last few days.

Oh and I woke up twice last night to her putting lotion on my tattoo


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Has her PA partner shown up at the window at all lately?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> I'm not sure what to do with all the GF accusations but I've been here what 9 nights in a row where am I having this relationship?


Possible projection.

Or it's just a fitness test.

"I don't have a girlfriend, and I'm not ok with the accusation. You're the woman I want, baby." <10 second kiss>


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Went and spent 5 hours yesterday getting my tattoo worked on then we were supposed to go out. Had it set up to drop the kids at my moms and go to dinner and a movie (moms is 20 miles away from her place) she wanted me to just put then in the daycare at the casino so we didn't have to drive across town (that would cost me about $22 an hour) I said no my mom is a free babysitter and gas is way cheaper I'm not blowing $60 on child care so we can watch a movie. She got a little upset about going to a movie on the trashy side of town so we didn't go. We all went to the buffet out here instead. I don't think she's too upset about not getting her way but she used to always get things her way.
> 
> Another thing interesting. The other day I did laundry here and I put one of her shirts on her bed clean. She threw it back into my clothes later. I found it and said something to which she replied that's not mine it's your girlfriends. And I don't appreciate you bringing them over here when I'm not home. I told her its her shirt and tossed it back in her bed. I just found it folded up in my clothes again. Last night she made a comment about me "catching up with my girlfriend" while I was reading on my phone. I'm not sure what to do with all the GF accusations but I've been here what 9 nights in a row where am I having this relationship? Logic is clearly not being used in this but she clearly cares if I had a GF that's good. She keeps telling me its ok that I am seeing someone else, not sure where to go with this as I've tried the logical and I've tried the dismissing it quickly and it has come up a few times in the last few days.
> 
> Oh and I woke up twice last night to her putting lotion on my tattoo


Broken people live in fear.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

No visitors to the window since that night

I'm noticing lots more affection and glad to see you smiles every time I see her. Think I have the leverage to get her into MC yet? I'm wondering, my therapist told me I can bring her in that she would see us both. It's across town but if I were going I could ask her to come and see if she will go. If have to reschedule the next appointment to make an attempt at it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> No visitors to the window since that night
> 
> I'm noticing lots more affection and glad to see you smiles every time I see her. Think I have the leverage to get her into MC yet? I'm wondering, my therapist told me I can bring her in that she would see us both. It's across town but if I were going I could ask her to come and see if she will go. If have to reschedule the next appointment to make an attempt at it.


Wait on that.

When she asks for something big, you tell her you're not ok with that unless you're both in on the marriage.

AND.. the way to show that is in MC.

BTW - drop that stupid shirt off at goodwill.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Wait on that.
> 
> When she asks for something big, you tell her you're not ok with that unless you're both in on the marriage.
> 
> ...


Haha good call on her shirt. It's gone tonight when I leave for work.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Just took a shower and was thinking. I don't think she is going to ask for anything big. I think she is just going to assume I'm watching the kids for school every time because I said I would help her a while ago. I may need another way to push the issue later.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Just took a shower and was thinking. I don't think she is going to ask for anything big. I think she is just going to assume I'm watching the kids for school every time because I said I would help her a while ago. I may need another way to push the issue later.


You know better than that.

It's always "something"

You'll know it when you see it.

If you push it, you know what happens - she'll dig her heels in.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> Just took a shower and was thinking. I don't think she is going to ask for anything big. I think she is just going to assume I'm watching the kids for school every time because I said I would help her a while ago. I may need another way to push the issue later.


I hope she did your laundry while you were showering....


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

My laundry is all done, at least everything I have here is clean. 

W: since your going to be staying here could you buy the non food items like toothpaste, paper towels, and things. My card only works on food.

I continued eating. 

W: your getting the good end of the deal, food costs a lot more than that stuff.

This must be her way of asking me to live here and not live here at the same time. Loves that welfare.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Ryo said:


> My laundry is all done, at least everything I have here is clean.
> 
> W: since your going to be staying here could you buy the non food items like toothpaste, paper towels, and things. My card only works on food.
> 
> ...


No, it's her way of asking you to start helping with her expenses. Before you know it, you'll be footing the entire bill.

Tread carefully.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> No, it's her way of asking you to start helping with her expenses. Before you know it, you'll be footing the entire bill.
> 
> Tread carefully.


Big fat slow pitch came rather quickly, don't you think?

Hit it out of the park.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Tell her I'm not ok contributing to the expenses for an apartment I don't actually live in?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Tell her I'm not ok contributing to the expenses for an apartment I don't actually live in?


And, if she wants you to contribute, you want MC for 12 weeks.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Once a week I'm assuming for MC. 

My current therapist (who already knows the whole story)? or a new one on her side of town? I don't mind the commute once a week to stay with the same therapist I think t would cut at least 3 visits out of learning our situation and we'd be ahead. 

Editing in: 
I'm expecting her response to be something along these lines "I've told you I don't want to commit to a relationship. Or I can't let you actually move in ill lose my state assistance, or the unlikely offensive of I'm trying to take advantage of her needing my help and force her into R. 

Responses?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Once a week I'm assuming for MC.
> 
> My current therapist (who already knows the whole story)? or a new one on her side of town? I don't mind the commute once a week to stay with the same therapist I think t would cut at least 3 visits out of learning our situation and we'd be ahead.
> 
> ...


"Since you're not ok committing to the relationship, I'm not ok paying"


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

You make that look so easy lol.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> You make that look so easy lol.


You'll be surprised how quickly you get good at this.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Well when she gets home from school I'm planning on talking to her about it. 

Not willing to contribute to a home I don't live at.

Not willing to contribute and move in without a commitment and MC. From there. Can be used to solve our other problems. 

About MC do you think I should use my therapist since she already knows a lot about our situation or should I get a totally new therapist for it? I don't want her to feel like she's being taken to "my therapist" who sides with me. But I know my therapist will be neutral if we used her. She is across town but the drive once a week isn't a big deal to me. Long car ride after MC could be a good thing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Well when she gets home from school I'm planning on talking to her about it.
> 
> Not willing to contribute to a home I don't live at.
> 
> ...


Broken people live in fear.

She would likely think it's a setup to use yours.

Get a referral on a good shiny new one - and start from scratch.

Remember, you're armed with a new toolkit of perspective.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

I will ask my therapist if she knows a good one this side of town. If not I will find one. I figured you would say something similar but was not sure.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> I will ask my therapist if she knows a good one this side of town. If not I will find one. I figured you would say something similar but was not sure.


I'm pretty easy to figure out.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok so we had that talk and I'm moving in. 

She is scared to immediately give up welfare and was actually crying at one point worried she would become dependent on me and she would then be stuck. I reassured her I'm not trying to do that that I do not want to move in if it is because she needs me to but instead only is she wants me around. She agreed that she does. I also told her I am not interested in living with her without MC I am not looking to just repeat our mistakes. 

I will be looking for a good therapist for MC and at her request a therapist for me and SD to see together. I will be moving in slowly over the month and maintaining my other residence for a month so she can ease in to it and be comfortable it's safe to give up her welfare so I told her we can take this month and slowly move me in. but next month I won't be contributing and paying rent elsewhere.

We slightly touched on the financial aspect and I told her she has to be willing to learn to save money towards goals and she is onboard with this. My computer moves in Saturday and with it my ability to look for a new therapist for us. Think I will cancel next weeks IC and save the $60 to use towards MC


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Ok so we had that talk and I'm moving in.
> 
> She is scared to immediately give up welfare and was actually crying at one point worried she would become dependent on me and she would then be stuck. I reassured her I'm not trying to do that that I do not want to move in if it is because she needs me to but instead only is she wants me around. She agreed that she does. I also told her I am not interested in living with her without MC I am not looking to just repeat our mistakes.
> 
> ...


Good man.

Rock steady


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Continue to be the leader that you are Ryo.

Seize the moment, steal the day.

The key is to lead from the front and show that you have no fear or reservations.


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

Should I make a new thread in the reconciliation section or just continue to post here?

Only thing that happened this weekend was she started asking questions about things I've said over the last 5 months and picking my words apart. I just let it go I'm not getting into debates on exact wording of things I've said, she can just watch and see I'm not full of it when I say I did miss SD. She'll trust me on that eventually.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: confused and dont know what to do*



Ryo said:


> Should I make a new thread in the reconciliation section or just continue to post here?


If you two are reconciling, yes. Good luck!


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## Ryo (Mar 28, 2013)

will be continuing this in the R forums:Ryo's reconciliation attempt


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ryo said:


> Should I make a new thread in the reconciliation section or just continue to post here?
> 
> Only thing that happened this weekend was she started asking questions about things I've said over the last 5 months and picking my words apart. I just let it go I'm not getting into debates on exact wording of things I've said, she can just watch and see I'm not full of it when I say I did miss SD. She'll trust me on that eventually.


Once she starts down that road, "I'm sorry you feel that way" has great utility.

"I don't like where this conversation is heading" - is a step up.

**** and eyebrow... "You done?" should be reserved for the rants that simply won't stop.


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