# This is for the women who have lost faith in men.



## 45188

WTF Are Men Thinking? Do Women Really Want to Know | Psychology Today



> Myth #4: Men can't be monogamous. The authors say that cheating men are "generally accepted as a fact of life," yet a large percentage of men in their survey reported that this simply isn't so. Eighty-one (81) percent reported that they would never cheat on their partners even if they thought they could get away with it.


=p

No no its a MYTH men can't be monogamous.


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## BrookeT

What shocks me is women who, after marriage, stop having sex with thier husbands, then are totally stunned when said husband looks elsewhere. 

It's not rocket science, men need sex, and equate sex with love. If you want to keep your man faithful......put real effort into your sex life. Once or twice a month isn't going to cut it.


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## unbelievable

An expectation of faithfulness accompanies an implied agreement that those (reasonable) needs will be met by the contracting parties. If you agree to only eat my cooking, it logically follows that I agree to feed you. Stop having sex, you stop being a wife (or husband).


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## Goldmember357

This is what i tell people but they DONT WANT TO BELIEVE

monogamy is not natural for human beings but its more in the favor of the female traditionally than that of the male. I say this and everyone wishes to argue and play devil's advocate! Understanding human evolution along with researching it opens the doors to many interesting things about our existence.


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## Goldmember357

wait neve mind i am arguing against this survey. Yes many men along with women can be monogamous i argue though its unnatural and i agree with overwhelmingly what the scientists say. 

I don't think it should be used as an excuse if someone agrees to have a monogamous relationship with another individual and they break that agreement they should be held accountable and not trusted and thrown aside (imo). If an individual breaks the agreement and ceases to be loyal, faithful, etc they are not right for the individual who desires monogamy.

Also just because individuals say "I wont ever cheat" does not mean they wont.


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## unbelievable

The only way one could be 100% certain they could "get away with" adultery is if a willing adultery partner could suddenly appear out of thin air in a person's locked room without windows. Sex could take place, the magical partner disappear at the moment of climax, and the remaining partner burn the house to the ground and take an hour long scalding shower. The surviving partner could never get drunk, talk in their sleep, be tortured, or become senile. Of course, the success of this plan depends on the magical partner never reappearing to any other human. Maybe 80% of men are smart enough to know "even if they could get away with it" is an impossible condition to place on the question.


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## thatbpguy

BrookeT said:


> What shocks me is women who, after marriage, stop having sex with thier husbands, then are totally stunned when said husband looks elsewhere.
> 
> It's not rocket science, men need sex, and equate sex with love. If you want to keep your man faithful......*put real effort into your sex life. Once or twice a month isn't going to cut it.*


BrookeT for President! :smthumbup:


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## RandomDude

Goldmember357 said:


> This is what i tell people but they DONT WANT TO BELIEVE
> 
> monogamy is not natural for human beings but its more in the favor of the female traditionally than that of the male. I say this and everyone wishes to argue and play devil's advocate! Understanding human evolution along with researching it opens the doors to many interesting things about our existence.


Just a curious question, you mentioned it's "unnatural to be monogamous", then how would you describe the natural functions of life such as security, love, even jealousy? These functions are what have had made our societies naturally monogamous for millenia, and they should unless we as spouses have found our needs being unmet - then it's natural to start looking elsewhere.

However, our choice not to is also a natural function of humanity, we want to stay committed, because we want the other person to do so during the bad times too, so we choose to be monogamous and that too is natural in my opinion.


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## EleGirl

BrookeT said:


> What shocks me is women who, after marriage, stop having sex with thier husbands, then are totally stunned when said husband looks elsewhere.
> 
> It's not rocket science, men need sex, and equate sex with love. If you want to keep your man faithful......put real effort into your sex life. Once or twice a month isn't going to cut it.


What about men who stop having sex with their wives after marriage? Do they shock you as well?


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## RandomDude

I believe Brooke T meant that as in - it's vice versa for couples 

Besides, come now, aren't you just a little impressed?


> *Eighty-one (81)* percent reported that they would never cheat on their partners even if they thought they could get away with it.


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## Cosmos

Men stop having sex with their wives, too, but I think to most women it's such an enormous blow to their self-esteem that they're terrified to speak of it - even to their closest friends.

Source: My own sexless marriage


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## FalconKing

BrookeT said:


> Sure. In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up.
> 
> Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one  It simply amazes me how often it happens though. A very good friend of mine had her husband cheat with a 23 year old co-worker, when we were talking about it she revealed they hadn't had sex in 5 months. 5 MONTHS! She said he had tried, multiple times a week, and she would turn him down because she didn't "feel like it".


His cheating was wrong but I have always found this interesting. Some women will have no interest in sex and still be completely blown away when their husbands want to separate/divorce. Do they really think they can have all the benefits of marriage without the sex?


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## lilith23

No surprise would be finding out how unhappy your partner is if you forget about his/her sexual needs. But to cheat? I've thought that marriage is about honoring the commitment both decided to share, and to solve the issues together whenever something arises. If someone is unhappy with something and can't really solve it, best thing to do is to end the commitment and not breaking the vows. The partner not caring for the other's needs might be selfish, but the partner that is not honoring the vows is not being good either.


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## Holland

BrookeT said:


> Sure. * In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up. *
> 
> Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one  It simply amazes me how often it happens though. A very good friend of mine had her husband cheat with a 23 year old co-worker, when we were talking about it she revealed they hadn't had sex in 5 months. 5 MONTHS! She said he had tried, multiple times a week, and she would turn him down because she didn't "feel like it".


Where is your evidence of this? I call this bullcrap.

Walk in the shoes of a woman who lived in a sexless marriage and listen to countless stories from other women in this situation before making such generalisations.

The problem with these types of home made generalisations is that you are hurting people out there that are already broken and in pain. Bad form.


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## FalconKing

Holland said:


> Where is your evidence of this? I call this bullcrap.
> 
> Walk in the shoes of a woman who lived in a sexless marriage and listen to countless stories from other women in this situation before making such generalisations.
> 
> The problem with these types of home made generalisations is that you are hurting people out there that are already broken and in pain. Bad form.


Well Holland, I think the scenario BrookeT stated does indeed happen. It's fear of rejection and lack of open communication. But I can see your frustration because you were a woman who was trying to gve intimacy in the marriage and it was not reciprocated.


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## Holland

FK I don't doubt for one second that the scenario BrookeT commented on plays out in homes across the world daily. What I object to is home made statements like "in many cases". Where is the proof that "in many cases" this is what happens?

People on forums like this needs to be very careful of how damaging their unfounded generalisations can be. There is a special kind of pain felt by women that have been the rejected ones in marriage. it can take years to recover and the self doubt and loathing that goes along with it can be debilitating. It is already an issue that is kept hidden by many women because of the lack of understanding by the general public, comments like the one above go a long way to perpetuating the pain.


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## Cosmos

Holland said:


> Where is your evidence of this? I call this bullcrap.
> 
> Walk in the shoes of a woman who lived in a sexless marriage and listen to countless stories from other women in this situation before making such generalisations.
> 
> The problem with these types of home made generalisations is that you are hurting people out there that are already broken and in pain. Bad form.


:iagree:

I divorced at 31 because of my sexless marriage, and never remarried for fear of the same humiliation...

As I said in my previous post, it's out there but many women are too embarrassed to ever breathe a word of it. It was the worst shame I can remember. I was rejected on my wedding night and for much of my marriage.

An H who is rejected by his W gains sympathy (she's "a cold fish"), whereas a W who is rejected by her H "must have something wrong with her."

Man or woman - sexless marriages hurt.


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## sandc

EleGirl said:


> What about men who stop having sex with their wives after marriage? Do they shock you as well?


Shocks the heck out of me. I can't even fathom not wanting to have sex with my wife.


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## DvlsAdvc8

This survey is flawed imo. Ask a man if he would consider cheating absent any existing temptation to do so, and of course he'll say "no" unless he's already very unhappy.

Its not so easy a question to answer when that one woman you know is seemingly coming on to you and that chemistry is stiring your brain into soup. I think most men would not seek to cheat, but they would cheat if faced with certain circumstances and temptation. I'd argue the same goes for women, although maybe a lower percentage.

Maybe its just me though, because I seem to be on the wrong end of all of these myths except #1 & #5 - soon as she starts rambling around the world before getting to the point, she's lost me the rest of the conversation. The conversation will get categorized after the first few sentences, and if it goes into the "unspecific anecdote" bin then I'm listening with as much effort as she's put into getting to the point. And foreplay? Why would men not like foreplay? I don't know about other guys, but my penis doesn't come with a "on" button - that's what foreplay is for. The question is how much foreplay. 

#2 I want to be in control most of the time. I like her to take control every now and then, it keeps things spicy, but for the most part I like being the dominant one.

#3 gtfo... I always want sex unless I've had too much sex.

#4 I can be monogamous if I'm happy, but temptation is always there and its necessary to have the energy to actively resist. Long going problems gradually eat away at that energy and it becomes increasingly difficult to not respond to someone else. So its a circumstantial thing... especially if you've been trying to work on the relationship forever and you've gotten nowhere.

#6 I enjoy being the breadwinner. Not being the breadwinner would probably motivate me to work harder to BE the breadwinner. Providing is part of my identity as a man and I'd feel like less of one otherwise. Its like saying the woman should climb the ladder and put up the christmas lights, home repairs or auto maintenance. I'd feel like a total loser if I didn't take care of certain things like these.

Some of this relates simply to my preferred position in the household. I want to lead, guide and take care of the bigger picture stuff... and the crises that come up. I want a woman who is more into handling the routine things I will neglect, and doesn't want to have to worry about things like making sure we put away enough for retirement or childrens college tuition or dealing with the roof leak... etc.

Some of these things, for me, answer the question: "As a man, what is my purpose?" Its obviously to provide a stress barrier for my woman, to ensure safety, to lead and provide for.... and squish bugs and open jars.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Holland said:


> FK I don't doubt for one second that the scenario BrookeT commented on plays out in homes across the world daily. What I object to is home made statements like "in many cases". Where is the proof that "in many cases" this is what happens?
> 
> People on forums like this needs to be very careful of how damaging their unfounded generalisations can be. There is a special kind of pain felt by women that have been the rejected ones in marriage. it can take years to recover and the self doubt and loathing that goes along with it can be debilitating. It is already an issue that is kept hidden by many women because of the lack of understanding by the general public, comments like the one above go a long way to perpetuating the pain.


The proof of "many cases" would be this forum.

If there's no sex in a marriage its a matter of time and circumstance before the party feeling ignored finds it elsewhere imo.

I don't see that its any different for women who were ignored.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Cosmos said:


> An H who is rejected by his W gains sympathy (she's "a cold fish"), whereas a W who is rejected by her H "must have something wrong with her."


Now that's where I call bullcrap. Where is the evidence of "must have something wrong with her"? I think this is a projection of the way you feel, rather than the way others perceive it.

A quick browse of this forum alone will show a ton of posts where other guys simply "don't understand" a guy rejecting his wife's sexual advances.

While the rejected H might gain more community sympathy, the rejected W certainly doesn't get criticism, often the opposite! You see things like "I wish my wife would come on to me!!" ... if nothing else, everyone asks "wtf is wrong with her guy".


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## DvlsAdvc8

As a guy, I don't understand stuff like this... from the website for the book the article is based on:

A divorced woman is dating again, and she says this... seeking to gain insight to become more successful.

"I don’t know what men really think, and no men I know will give me the straight answer. They sugarcoat the truth. It would be refreshing if, for once, I knew ahead of time why men act the way they do, so I could be more successful in dealing with them.”

My take on the straight answer? Sex. We see a woman and we think "Heck yeah", "yes", "ok", "iffy" or "if I was drunk enough" (or if its really really bad, unconscious).

For every guy a woman would consider having sex with on physical traits alone, we see 10 women we'd have sex with... not consider it. That's what we want. That's why we engage you. Otherwise, we'd mostly just talk to other guys.

Emotional connection for us develops significantly after the sexual attraction with an attachment to your idiosyncracies. I still have stupid lovey feelings over things like penguins, cats, and volkswagen beetles simply because I dated women who were obsessed with them... and falling in love with them was sort of falling in love with all their "things". The less obvious these things were, the more bland I felt the woman was and the less "love" interest I'd have.

Wanna know why the guy won't settle down with you? He might want to have sex with you, but he might not really like you. He might simply consider you someone he wouldn't settle down with. I dated this one girl once that I liked a good bit... but she was taller than me and it was a deal breaker. I knew I probably wasn't gonna end up with her in the long run. We ended up breaking up for other reasons, but its still true that unless some love magic happened, it wasn't going to be a long term thing. Sex and love - independent. Heck, most guys I know are aware of a woman they can't stand as a person but would just love to bone. ie the sexy girl in the other department that's always a bish to us.

If we actually like you, we spend time with you and bring you with us to do the things we enjoy. We're eager to see you. Hence women always demanding significant non-sexual time before having sex. Oddly, it doesn't matter to us unless we've got hangups about how "easy" she might be... but most of us don't. Sleeping with us the first date or not sleeping with us on the first date isn't going to make us like you more or less... generally.

In denying sex women think they're making sure the guy likes her beyond sex. Again, irrelevant. They're totally independent in our minds. We can have sex and fall in love later, or fall in love and have sex later. Independent.

We learn pretty quickly to lie to you... to downplay our interest, even if we really like you. Or to dismiss it when we're really wanting to get you into bed (which is always). "What? NO... I'm not trying to get into your pants... they don't fit me... har har har". We learn that its necessary to delay our eagerness to achieve our goal in order to actually achieve our goal. Thus the guys who get women, don't care about women, they don't get "sprung"... and women interpret it as "he's not just trying to get laid." Its why so many women are enthralled with the bad boys and the guys that are borderline jerks... not even seemingly trying. Its the guys who don't get women that are "trying too hard". So its all a game and many of us have learned some of the rules. I don't like the rules women made... but I know I have to play the game.

So when a guy doesn't go for the close right away, lets you do a little chasing of your own... gives you just enough feedback that he's into you, and you think he really likes YOU... and then you have sex and suddenly he's acting like he's not really committed... that's a guy who was never emotionally connected to you. He just wanted sex. If any of us were honest with our sexual intentions right off the bat, very few of us would get laid. lol

On the other hand the guy you got with on the first date and now he's calling you all the time and wanting to go places with you and you feel like you have no space... that might be a guy who really likes YOU... and typically you'll ditch him for being needy.

Sex and love for us are pretty much independent processes. We find love while looking for sex. Women generally find sex while looking for love... although most of you could find sex anytime, anywhere you looked. haha

Most of us would probably sleep around if we could... for the enjoyment of sex alone, unless we came under some woman's spell, and we don't really get why most women don't despite having the greater degree of control over the sexual spigot.


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## Holland

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The proof of "many cases" would be this forum.
> 
> If there's no sex in a marriage its a matter of time and circumstance before the party feeling ignored finds it elsewhere imo.
> 
> I don't see that its any different for women who were ignored.


Actually no it is the reverse on this forum. I don't see women saying "I shot down my man many times and now he won't have sex with me" what women here are saying is that they *want *to have sex with their husbands but the husband is the rejector.

Brookt was saying that when men stop having sex with the wife in "many cases" it is the woman's fault because she refused her husband too many times. Untrue IME and the experience of the many women here and elsewhere that suffer this rejection.


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## Ostera

BrookeT said:


> What shocks me is women who, after marriage, stop having sex with thier husbands, then are totally stunned when said husband looks elsewhere.
> 
> It's not rocket science, men need sex, and equate sex with love. If you want to keep your man faithful......put real effort into your sex life. Once or twice a month isn't going to cut it.


I never cheated, but my stbxw cut the sex down to almost nothing with 6-8 months of marriage. Granted I bought the menopause excuse (she is 52) but are you f'ing kidding me. Then what am I suppose to do? I never cheated though.. a lot of doing the wash myself.


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## Cosmos

Holland said:


> Actually no it is the reverse on this forum. I don't see women saying "I shot down my man many times and now he won't have sex with me" what women here are saying is that they *want *to have sex with their husbands but the husband is the rejector.
> 
> Brookt was saying that when men stop having sex with the wife in "many cases" it is the woman's fault because she refused her husband too many times. Untrue IME and the experience of the many women here and elsewhere that suffer this rejection.


It was even suggested to me during my sexless marriage that I might have a hormonal problem that was causing a touch of nymphomania! This was many years ago, now, but apparently it was deemed a tad abnormal for an attractive, fit and healthy 26 year old woman to get so upset because she hadn't had sex in 6 months. No wonder I didn't talk about it much! :scratchhead:


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## Ostera

BrookeT said:


> Sure. In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up.
> 
> Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one  It simply amazes me how often it happens though. A very good friend of mine had her husband cheat with a 23 year old co-worker, when we were talking about it she revealed they hadn't had sex in 5 months. 5 MONTHS! She said he had tried, multiple times a week, and she would turn him down because she didn't "feel like it".


It also has to do with 'boring' sex. At the beginning it all kinds of positions, toys, lingerie, etc.

then she is 'too tired' so in my case it turned into I give her oral and then we do missionary... that put a lot of strain on me. i do all the work... then when i talk about it to her she would withdraw making the situation worse... Like I said I never cheated. I started to resent her... then she would emotional comfort elsewhere.

I would snuggle with her every night and get no reponse back. It hurt alot seeing who we had only been together 3 years.


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## FalconKing

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> As a guy, I don't understand stuff like this... from the website for the book the article is based on:
> 
> A divorced woman is dating again, and she says this... seeking to gain insight to become more successful.
> 
> "I don’t know what men really think, and no men I know will give me the straight answer. They sugarcoat the truth. It would be refreshing if, for once, I knew ahead of time why men act the way they do, so I could be more successful in dealing with them.”
> 
> My take on the straight answer? Sex. We see a woman and we think "Heck yeah", "yes", "ok", "iffy" or "if I was drunk enough" (or if its really really bad, unconscious).
> 
> For every guy a woman would consider having sex with on physical traits alone, we see 10 women we'd have sex with... not consider it. That's what we want. That's why we engage you. Otherwise, we'd mostly just talk to other guys.
> 
> Emotional connection for us develops significantly after the sexual attraction with an attachment to your idiosyncracies. I still have stupid lovey feelings over things like penguins, cats, and volkswagen beetles simply because I dated women who were obsessed with them... and falling in love with them was sort of falling in love with all their "things". The less obvious these things were, the more bland I felt the woman was and the less "love" interest I'd have.
> 
> Wanna know why the guy won't settle down with you? He might want to have sex with you, but he might not really like you. He might simply consider you someone he wouldn't settle down with. Sex and love - independent. Heck, most guys I know are aware of a woman they can't stand as a person but would just love to bone. ie the sexy girl in the other department that's always a bish to us.
> 
> If we actually like you, we spend time with you and bring you with us to do the things we enjoy. We're eager to see you. Hence women always demanding significant non-sexual time before having sex. Oddly, it doesn't matter to us unless we've got hangups about how "easy" she might be... but most of us don't. Sleeping with us the first date or not sleeping with us on the first date isn't going to make us like you more or less... generally.
> 
> In denying sex women think they're making sure the guy likes her beyond sex. Again, irrelevant. They're totally independent in our minds. We can have sex and fall in love later, or fall in love and have sex later. Independent.
> 
> We learn pretty quickly to lie to you... to downplay our interest, even if we really like you. Or to dismiss it when we're really wanting to get you into bed (which is always). "What? NO... I'm not trying to get into your pants... they don't fit me... har har har". We learn that its necessary to delay our eagerness to achieve our goal in order to actually achieve our goal. Thus the guys who get women, don't care about women, they don't get "sprung"... and women interpret it as "he's not just trying to get laid." Its why so many women are enthralled with the bad boys and the guys that are borderline jerks... not even seemingly trying. Its the guys who don't get women that are "trying too hard". So its all a game and many of us have learned some of the rules. I don't like the rules women made... but I know I have to play the game.
> 
> So when a guy doesn't go for the close right away, lets you do a little chasing of your own... gives you just enough feedback that he's into you, and you think he really likes YOU... and then you have sex and suddenly he's acting like he's not really committed... that's a guy who was never emotionally connected to you. He just wanted sex. If any of us were honest with our sexual intentions right off the bat, very few of us would get laid. lol
> 
> On the other hand the guy you got with on the first date and now he's calling you all the time and wanting to go places with you and you feel like you have no space... that might be a guy who really likes YOU... and typically you'll ditch him for being needy.
> 
> Sex and love for us are pretty much independent processes. We find love while looking for sex. Women generally find sex while looking for love... although most of you could find sex anytime, anywhere you looked. haha
> 
> Most of us would probably sleep around if we could... for the enjoyment of sex alone, unless we came under some woman's spell, and we don't really get why most women don't despite having the greater degree of control over the sexual spigot.


A lot of guys are like this. I'm glad you said most and not all. I'm not like this. And feel like its a weakness to be a slave to such primal urges. I know how fulfilled I would be if I could have a woman who was everything I wanted and how empty I would feel to only have a woman that served as a physical release. Also I'd rather not put unnecessary mileage on myself for bragging rights or to just have "fun." Some of the things you've said I'm the polar opposite of but I see where you are coming from. I think men are more comlicated than this and you don't give us enough credit. So many women think we ain't sh!t. Please don't give them ammo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Now that's where I call bullcrap. Where is the evidence of "must have something wrong with her"? I think this is a projection of the way you feel, rather than the way others perceive it.
> 
> A quick browse of this forum alone will show a ton of posts where other guys simply "don't understand" a guy rejecting his wife's sexual advances.
> 
> While the rejected H might gain more community sympathy, the rejected W certainly doesn't get criticism, often the opposite! You see things like "I wish my wife would come on to me!!" ... if nothing else, everyone asks "wtf is wrong with her guy".


I would say that most guys in this forum would certainly get it, particularly if they're in sexless or near sexless marriages themselves. They are likely to wonder what the hell is wrong with a guy who doesn't want sex with a willing partner, when they themselves are being starved of it themselves.

But, yes, all those years back it was my perception of the situation, because that was my experience on the few occasions when I was brave enough to discuss the problem outside of my marriage. In the end I sought professional help, and fortunately managed to end the marriage.


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## EleGirl

BrookeT said:


> Sure. In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up.
> 
> Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one  It simply amazes me how often it happens though. A very good friend of mine had her husband cheat with a 23 year old co-worker, when we were talking about it she revealed they hadn't had sex in 5 months. 5 MONTHS! She said he had tried, multiple times a week, and she would turn him down because she didn't "feel like it".



You are wrong that men who withhold sex usually do it because their wife has turned them down many times.

What I’ve read is that it’s a passive aggressive act by men who are resentful of their wives. These guys cannot just come out and talk about it. Instead they withhold sex to punish.


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## FalconKing

I think BrookeT is a woman Elegirl. And also your example I think is gender neutral. I think most spouse who withhold sex are generally doing as a display of power and lack poor communication skills. Of course there are those spouses who become so disappointed and disgusted with their spouses that sex is repulsive to them.


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## EleGirl

FalconKing said:


> I think BrookeT is a woman Elegirl. And also your example I think is gender neutral. I think most spouse who withhold sex are generally doing as a display of power and lack poor communication skills. Of course there are those spouses who become so disappointed and disgusted with their spouses that sex is repulsive to them.


"Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one " ... Oh my  I misunderstood what she meant with the "since I am one"....  

I'll fix it...


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## Holland

FalconKing said:


> I think BrookeT is a woman Elegirl. And also your example I think is gender neutral. I think most spouse who withhold sex are generally doing as a display of power *and lack poor communication skills*. Of course there are those spouses who become so disappointed and disgusted with their spouses that sex is repulsive to them.


This was the case for my ex and now that i am in a healthy, balanced relationship it is even more glaringly obvious. Ex comes from a family where poor communication skills are the norm. It destroyed us. He is not a bad man and it was not a power play I don't believe on his part but when a couple cannot even talk about simple issues around sex then it is a disaster waiting to happen.

FK you have hit the nail, there are all sorts of reasons for why things happen in relationships. My point of contention earlier was with the assumption that men with hold sex because it was originally the woman with holding, this may be so for some but I would never say that it is the case with "many". 

TBH I think lack of communication skills is the basis for most of the issues in marriages, not necessarily the catalyst but without the ability to communicate nothing gets resolved.


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## Lon

Men are like dogs, fiercely loyal and we like to hump things. But we can also easily be trained and conditioned, so for those of us who are taught about virtues of monogamy, instead of promiscuity, we are certainly capable of honoring our commitments just give us something to hump and feed us and we are happy.


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## Holland

You are a poet Lon, love you way with words.

Go forth, hump, eat and be merry


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## Cosmos

Lon said:


> Men are like dogs, fiercely loyal and we like to hump things. But we can also easily be trained and conditioned, so for those of us who are taught about virtues of monogamy, instead of promiscuity, we are certainly capable of honoring our commitments just give us something to hump and feed us and we are happy.


I love this response, too. Not that I think men are dogs


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## BrookeT

FalconKing said:


> I think BrookeT is a woman Elegirl


Correct-a-mundo.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Holland said:


> Actually no it is the reverse on this forum. I don't see women saying "I shot down my man many times and now he won't have sex with me" what women here are saying is that they *want *to have sex with their husbands but the husband is the rejector.
> 
> Brookt was saying that when men stop having sex with the wife in "many cases" it is the woman's fault because she refused her husband too many times. Untrue IME and the experience of the many women here and elsewhere that suffer this rejection.


I took an entirely different meaning from her post than you did. I think yours is colored by emotional background.

Brook was referring specifically to women who complain about their men not being interested anymore, or looking for it elsewhere, after extended periods of being denied by their wives. This isn't you, so why would it make you feel bad?

While her post was gender specific, I don't see that the interpretation of it needs to be. To rephrase what she said: I'm not surprised when a repeatedly rejected spouse cheats or no longer has interest - male or female.

The fault was not being put on women for their husband's lack of interest unless that woman previously rejected him. When I read her post, I read her placing fault on the party doing the rejecting.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Cosmos said:


> It was even suggested to me during my sexless marriage that I might have a hormonal problem that was causing a touch of nymphomania! This was many years ago, now, but apparently it was deemed a tad abnormal for an attractive, fit and healthy 26 year old woman to get so upset because she hadn't had sex in 6 months. No wonder I didn't talk about it much! :scratchhead:


To which I have to give the typical response I see on this forum to such things: wtf was wrong with your husband!?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FalconKing said:


> A lot of guys are like this. I'm glad you said most and not all. I'm not like this. And feel like its a weakness to be a slave to such primal urges. I know how fulfilled I would be if I could have a woman who was everything I wanted and how empty I would feel to only have a woman that served as a physical release. Also I'd rather not put unnecessary mileage on myself for bragging rights or to just have "fun." Some of the things you've said I'm the polar opposite of but I see where you are coming from. I think men are more comlicated than this and you don't give us enough credit. So many women think we ain't sh!t. Please don't give them ammo.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're in the minority. I've heard dbag guys refer to women that have a lot of partners as having "high mileage", but I've never heard a guy restricting his own sex life to avoid unnecessary "mileage". You are a guy right?

Men are as complicated emotionally as women are, but the vast majority of us are totally uncomplicated when it comes to sex. You might be sincere, but in most cases when a guy says what you're saying he's sugar coating for the sake of perception (ie nice guy approach) or has moral/religious objections.

There are very few guys who are sitting around pinning for the love of their lives, much less denying themselves sex while waiting for it.

Personally, I never looked for "love". I just was having fun and love found me.


----------



## cantmove

When a spouse withholds sex there is usually a reason. It's up to both mature people to figure it out and fix it. *Lack of sex is never an excuse to cheat. It's an excuse to fix it or get a divorce.*


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think you're in the minority. I've heard dbag guys refer to women that have a lot of partners as having "high mileage", but I've never heard a guy restricting his own sex life to avoid unnecessary "mileage". You are a guy right?
> 
> Men are as complicated emotionally as women are, but the vast majority of us are totally uncomplicated when it comes to sex. You might be sincere, but in most cases when a guy says what you're saying he's sugar coating for the sake of perception (ie nice guy approach) or has moral/religious objections.
> 
> There are very few guys who are sitting around pinning for the love of their lives, much less denying themselves sex while waiting for it.
> 
> Personally, I never looked for "love". I just was having fun and love found me.


I'm one of those rare few guys I guess, women don't seem to come my way often but when they do they stick around so it's not that I'm sitting around pining for the love of my life, but I am definitely leary to put any miles on a lemon.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

EleGirl said:


> You are wrong that men who withhold sex usually do it because their wife has turned them down many times.
> 
> What I’ve read is that it’s a passive aggressive act by men who are resentful of their wives. These guys cannot just come out and talk about it. Instead they withhold sex to punish.


With-holding sex after having been denied repeatedly IS a passive-aggressive response to resenting her rejecting too. I know, I did something similar after many complaints about our sex life. ie "fine... don't want to show me you desire me, well I'll just keep myself too busy, shrug you off and we'll see how happy YOU are."

Women do the same thing when they resent something about their husbands.

She's not blaming you for his rejection. He could have any number of reasons... perhaps the same reasons a woman rejects her husband's advances out of the blue. But she is right that in many cases, we simply become tired of trying and decide to put the shoe on the other foot. When it gets to this stage of one-upping the other's misery... it goes down hill fast.

Neglect certainly breeds resentment, and resentment breeds passive-aggression... and the scenario she lays out is not uncommon even if it was not yours.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> I'm one of those rare few guys I guess, women don't seem to come my way often but when they do they stick around so it's not that I'm sitting around pining for the love of my life, but I am definitely leary to put any miles on a lemon.


So let me get this straight... you meet someone smoking hot, you go out a few times, long enough to know there's enough about her personality that rubs you the wrong way; but she is crazy into you.

So you don't have sex with the hot girl that is crazy about you because her personality or chemistry doesn't quite fit? That's not to say you dislike her... you're just not having that spark. So you shut it down right there? I have doubts.

Or, say you've taken it sexual already before figuring its not a personality fit. You'd break it up right there? Again, doubts.

I think most guys will keep the sex for as long as it lasts and do minimal maintenance while keeping their eyes open for someone else they might want to pursue... and not break it up until then... or she brings issues to a head/critical mass that its better to be single than deal with it.


----------



## cantmove

My stbx was withholding sex the last few years. To some degree it was a passive-aggressive response to built up resentment on both our parts. But mostly it was because he was in his forties, and apparently it's hard to service two women on the same day. I guess the posow was getting hers!


----------



## FalconKing

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think you're in the minority. I've heard dbag guys refer to women that have a lot of partners as having "high mileage", but I've never heard a guy restricting his own sex life to avoid unnecessary "mileage". You are a guy right?
> 
> Men are as complicated emotionally as women are, but the vast majority of us are totally uncomplicated when it comes to sex. You might be sincere, but in most cases when a guy says what you're saying he's sugar coating for the sake of perception (ie nice guy approach) or has moral/religious objections.
> 
> There are very few guys who are sitting around pinning for the love of their lives, much less denying themselves sex while waiting for it.
> 
> Personally, I never looked for "love". I just was having fun and love found me.


Yes I am a guy. Why would I sugar coat anything here? No one here knows me. What I say here has no effect on my social life. I'm not going to meet women and tell them to sign up for this forum and see the sh!t I type. I know not everyone is religious, but having morals never hurt anybody. I just don't want to deal with uncommitted sex partners, the drama of one us getting emotional, and the effects of what the psychological impact of that "if it feels good do it" mindset can have on people in longterm relationships. 

Also, I know some women find me attractive and I know how to talk to a woman. So I don't have to sleep around to prove anything to myself. I want sex as much as the next man. But I know centering my life around that or just meeting women for sex could ruin me. It's also easier to dismiss a lot of unhealthy prospects for dating when you don't let a woman have that kind of power of you.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

cantmove said:


> When a spouse withholds sex there is usually a reason. It's up to both mature people to figure it out and fix it. *Lack of sex is never an excuse to cheat. It's an excuse to fix it or get a divorce.*


Cheating sure is a lot easier than divorce if all else is well and attempts to fix have failed. Often times the cheater doesnt WANT a divorce. They want SEX.


----------



## cantmove

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Cheating sure is a lot easier than divorce if all else is well and attempts to fix have failed. Often times the cheater doesnt WANT a divorce. They want SEX.


Yes, but that's called being a narcissistic ass, not a decent human being.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FalconKing said:


> Yes I am a guy. Why would I sugar coat anything here? No one here knows me. What I say here has no effect on my social life. I'm not going to meet women and tell them to sign up for this forum and see the sh!t I type. I know not everyone is religious, but having morals never hurt anybody. I just don't want to deal with uncommitted sex partners, the drama of one us getting emotional, and the effects of what the psychological impact of that "if it feels good do it" mindset can have on people in longterm relationships.
> 
> Also, I know some women find me attractive and I know how to talk to a woman. So I don't have to sleep around to prove anything to myself. I want sex as much as the next man. But I know centering my life around that or just meeting women for sex could ruin me. It's also easier to dismiss a lot of unhealthy prospects for dating when you don't let a woman have that kind of power of you.


I just said it sounded like what someone sugar coating would say. I don't know why you'd do it here except virtual reputation. Its the kind of thing someone says in polite company but doesn't really buy. I guess you do.

The whole sleeping around to prove yourself thing is totally overblown cliche... and we're not talking about screwing everything with breasts here either. Simply that emotional attachment and sex are independent in most men... and most of us are interested in sex initially.

I don't think any guy centers his life around sex. But its a primary component of our interest in women period.

Who said anything about unhealthy prospects? I think you're reading into this something that's not there. I'm talking perfectly fine women who you otherwise don't "click" with.

I'm also not sure where you get sex being some power women have over men. I want sex, but nobody is getting me to do something I don't want to do in order to get it. I date with the intention of getting it, and maybe finding something long term, and I'll get it even if it turns out I'm not that crazy about her long term potential. Eventually if she doesn't have that potential for me, I'll move on.

I personally don't have moral qualms about sex.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

cantmove said:


> Yes, but that's called being a narcissistic ass, not a decent human being.


I don't see what's narcissistic about it. Its not feeling superior.

Some people legitimately like everything about their marriage and family life EXCEPT the fact that their spouse never has sex with them.

Personally, I think its retarded to care about who your spouse goes and has sex with when you don't want to have sex with them anyway. Its like people that do are saying "HEY, YOU TOOK AWAY MY ABILITY TO PUNISH OR IGNORE YOU. You vowed to keep yourself for me and if I declare you get no sex... well so be it!" But hey, I'm Devil's Advocate because I have a lot of these weird opinions. I find it weird that some people think sex ought to override all other factors.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't want your spouse stepping out, don't ignore their sexual needs.


----------



## FalconKing

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The whole sleeping around to prove yourself thing is totally overblown cliche... and we're not talking about screwing everything with breasts here either. Simply that emotional attachment and sex are independent in most men... and most of us are interested in sex initially.


Well I don't think i'm that far off, considering your comment wondering if i'm a man based on what I said. I agree that most of us are interested in sex initially, but I think sometimes those urges cloud our better judgment. 



> I don't think any guy centers his life around sex. But its a primary component of our interest in women period.


I disagree. I know too many men who sleep around and are still not happy, too many guys who look at way to much porn, and even guys who have problems with prostitutes. Have you never heard of sex addicts? You don't think any guy has problem with this.



> Who said anything about unhealthy prospects? I think you're reading into this something that's not there. I'm talking perfectly fine women who you otherwise don't "click" with.


 And I think you are projecting your idea of how a man should be or act onto me. I'm not interested in having sex with women I don't click with. Does that sound better to you?



> I'm also not sure where you get sex being some power women have over men. I want sex, but nobody is getting me to do something I don't want to do in order to get it. I date with the intention of getting it, and maybe finding something long term, and I'll get it even if it turns out I'm not that crazy about her long term potential. Eventually if she doesn't have that potential for me, I'll move on.


Sex to you is independent of how you feel about the woman. So your goal with any woman is sex. I get that. But do you honestly believe there are not some foolish weak men out there jumping through hoops hoping a woman sleeps with them? Or men who are subjected to so much disrespect but tolerate it only because the women "gives" them sex. 

Man I really don't think i'm speaking some other language.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So let me get this straight... you meet someone smoking hot, you go out a few times, long enough to know there's enough about her personality that rubs you the wrong way; but she is crazy into you.
> 
> So you don't have sex with the hot girl that is crazy about you because her personality or chemistry doesn't quite fit? That's not to say you dislike her... you're just not having that spark. So you shut it down right there? I have doubts.
> 
> Or, say you've taken it sexual already before figuring its not a personality fit. You'd break it up right there? Again, doubts.
> 
> I think most guys will keep the sex for as long as it lasts and do minimal maintenance while keeping their eyes open for someone else they might want to pursue... and not break it up until then... or she brings issues to a head/critical mass that its better to be single than deal with it.


No, I'm saying that for me the pursuit of attractive women is not as fruitful as those guys who have success playing the field, when you have access to boundless fruit you don't need to be picky you just discard one and try the next, but when you can only reach low hanging fruit you gotta be picky: good fruit can still be found but if I used your method i'd constantly have a mouth full of rotten apples.

And yes I've spit out rotten apple and starved rather than continue chewing.


----------



## Ostera

EleGirl said:


> You are wrong that men who withhold sex usually do it because their wife has turned them down many times.
> 
> What I’ve read is that it’s a passive aggressive act by men who are resentful of their wives. These guys cannot just come out and talk about it. Instead they withhold sex to punish.



I am one of those who quit trying with my X. At the beginning she and I had awesome sex... then she got 'vanilla' on me, then it turned into she was tired or whatever the string of excuses are. 

I believe you know my story already. My X couldn't commit to anyone long term anyway. I am by no means shy in the bedroom, or kitchen or wherever. 

Anyway, she basically shut down on me and I would shower her with affection. Still nothing for months.

THEN I got resentful.. thinking, 'how dare you lure me in and then turn me into a sexless being?" This caused a lot of pent up resentment..

Somehow, due to how she is, I think it was a power thing with her.


----------



## Ostera

EleGirl said:


> What about men who stop having sex with their wives after marriage? Do they shock you as well?



If the dynamic is that the wife constantly rejects the H approaching, then NO not surprised. Men in general don't like rejection.. it's an ego thing.

scenerio 2, wife changes her behavior in bedroom and 'vanilla' is the norm when it didn't used to be. Can't feed a man pizza everyday and expect him to like it anymore.


----------



## cantmove

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't see what's narcissistic about it. Its not feeling superior.
> 
> Some people legitimately like everything about their marriage and family life EXCEPT the fact that their spouse never has sex with them.
> 
> Personally, I think its retarded to care about who your spouse goes and has sex with when you don't want to have sex with them anyway. Its like people that do are saying "HEY, YOU TOOK AWAY MY ABILITY TO PUNISH OR IGNORE YOU. You vowed to keep yourself for me and if I declare you get no sex... well so be it!" But hey, I'm Devil's Advocate because I have a lot of these weird opinions. I find it weird that some people think sex ought to override all other factors.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that if you don't want your spouse stepping out, don't ignore their sexual needs.


If someone withholds sex out of some sense of power they are completely wrong. I don't believe that most people that are married but not having sex are doing it on purpose. Does someone that decides to cheat, when they aren't getting enough, ever look in the mirror and ask themselves why? Do they evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that maybe they are just as much to blame as their spouse? 

Sometimes when the sex is bad, it can be about lack of trust, criticism, not feeling loved or safe. Sometimes you can want sex really badly and not be able to for those sorts of reasons. Should that person talk about it? Absolutely. They both should and if they can't fix it, they should walk away from each other, not go out and f#ck someone else. Clearly just my opinion.


----------



## Ostera

cantmove said:


> If someone withholds sex out of some sense of power they are completely wrong. I don't believe that most people that are married but not having sex are doing it on purpose. Does someone that decides to cheat, when they aren't getting enough, ever look in the mirror and ask themselves why? Do they evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that maybe they are just as much to blame as their spouse?
> 
> Sometimes when the sex is bad, it can be about lack of trust, criticism, not feeling loved or safe. Sometimes you can want sex really badly and not be able to for those sorts of reasons. Should that person talk about it? Absolutely. They both should and if they can't fix it, they should walk away from each other, not go out and f#ck someone else. Clearly just my opinion.


Body image, embarrassment, POWER, low self esteem, uncomfortable touching a man *there*.

My X espected oral (the only way she could climax). Never masterbated in her life (she's 52) but would allow my to use toys on her. She would occassionally do anal and seemed to enjoy it. Would never touch me for more than 15 seconds and oral was absolutely out of the guestion. 

Yet she loves the attention of other men, will sleep with them but only intercourse... 

I know some would say, "she like oral, but not with you." You would need to know my X and all her hangups before making that statement.

I believe my X's 2 biggest issues was being uncomfortable, she said she didn't know what she was doing and even if I tried to teach her she said she felt inferior because she didn't think she was any good at it... and there was a big issue of the POWER of not having intercourse gave her over me.


----------



## cantmove

Ostera said:


> Body image, embarrassment, POWER, low self esteem, uncomfortable touching a man *there*.
> 
> My X espected oral (the only way she could climax). Never masterbated in her life (she's 52) but would allow my to use toys on her. She would occassionally do anal and seemed to enjoy it. Would never touch me for more than 15 seconds and oral was absolutely out of the guestion.
> 
> Yet she loves the attention of other men, will sleep with them but only intercourse...
> 
> I know some would say, "she like oral, but not with you." You would need to know my X and all her hangups before making that statement.
> 
> I believe my X's 2 biggest issues was being uncomfortable, she said she didn't know what she was doing and even if I tried to teach her she said she felt inferior because she didn't think she was any good at it... and there was a big issue of the POWER of not having intercourse gave her over me.




I held no power over him and never wanted to. At one time we had a really fun sex life. He had the power but he chose to cheat continually. I couldn't trust him, and certainly never felt safe with him. I wasn't perfect but you need to feel like you're wanted and safe to let yourself go and have a healthy sex life. If that made me wrong, I'll just have to be wrong then.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FalconKing said:


> Man I really don't think i'm speaking some other language.


No, I totally get what you're saying. I just don't find it common. I made it clear I was generalizing in the first place, not that guys like you don't exist. Heck, I'm sure there exist guys who are straight up asexual.

I'm sure there are sex addicts. I'm sure there are guys who want to be "pure" for marriage and guys who want to avoid mileage, guys who think casual sex is immoral and guys who can be led around by their privates.

But I think the majority date with the goal of having sex in mind far more than finding the right long term match. I think most find their match along the way. Its the other way around for most women in my experience. Thus, there is a limited degree of sincerity when it comes to what many men say... and women thus complain of mixed messages and confusion. Most of us want sex whether or not she's "the one".

If she's confused about a man, its not a difficult guess where she stands. A guy truly interested leaves no doubt... and quite a few of them will get dropped for being "clingy" along the way. As a guy who has been both, I have to say leaving her guessing gets far better results.

The mindset of the vast majority of men is on sex, not what kind of person she is. So when ladies are getting mixed signals about what he wants... that would be their clue its not them and they should leave; but they never do.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> No, I'm saying that for me the pursuit of attractive women is not as fruitful as those guys who have success playing the field, when you have access to boundless fruit you don't need to be picky you just discard one and try the next, but when you can only reach low hanging fruit you gotta be picky: good fruit can still be found but if I used your method i'd constantly have a mouth full of rotten apples.
> 
> And yes I've spit out rotten apple and starved rather than continue chewing.


Fair. But the mindset is still the same no? We all have standards (see my "drunk and unconscious" haha).

Say you and some chick are really attracted to each other, but then it turns out you're an intense ideological republican and she's a free everything, world peace hippie... and your core ideology or values simply aren't compatible or are otherwise so opposed such that a fruitful long term relationship isn't likely. You'd spit this one out rather than taking a few bites?

I don't think most guys would care even if they know this is probably only gonna last a month, so long as she's hot.


----------



## Holland

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by EleGirl
> What about men who stop having sex with their wives after marriage? Do they shock you as well? ......................
> 
> 
> BrookeT ....Sure. In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up.





> DvlsAdvc8 ....I took an entirely different meaning from her post than you did. I think yours is colored by emotional background.
> 
> Brook was referring specifically to women who complain about their men not being interested anymore, or looking for it elsewhere, after extended periods of being denied by their wives. This isn't you, so why would it make you feel bad?


I didn't miss understand. The original quote says that many women are rejected by men because the woman originally rejected the man which is not the case at all.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Fair. But the mindset is still the same no? We all have standards (see my "drunk and unconscious" haha).
> 
> Say you and some chick are really attracted to each other, but then it turns out you're an intense ideological republican and she's a free everything, world peace hippie... and your core ideology or values simply aren't compatible or are otherwise so opposed such that a fruitful long term relationship isn't likely. You'd spit this one out rather than taking a few bites?
> 
> I don't think most guys would care even if they know this is probably only gonna last a month, so long as she's hot.


well, one time that was sorta the case, there was chemistry but not much compatibility, both of us admitted that we didn't see it lasting... We were honest about it. Was more than just sex, but it wasn't akin to marriage, for all the other women I've been with that would never have been enough, that they've put those kinda relationships behind them and they want committment. It turned out this one was no different though, she was just trying to be more manipulative than others have had to be.

So as long as I'm being honest and not deceitful, and as long as there is exclusivity, then yeah I could have a sexual relationship with no long term committment, it has just rarely been the case that the sentiment is mutual.


----------



## Ostera

cantmove said:


> Yes, but that's called being a narcissistic ass, not a decent human being.


i believe that could go both ways. For the one who wants it and the other who witholds it.

My biggest issue is why do women start witholding sex after marriage... I've been married 3 times... lived with all of them 1st. Sex was great. So the 'honeymoon' period lasted for 3 yrs with my 2nd when we just lived together. Within 6 months of marriage it became almost non-existent.

Same with first and third... yet we married much soon after living togther.


----------



## Ostera

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I divorced at 31 because of my sexless marriage, and never remarried for fear of the same humiliation...
> 
> As I said in my previous post, it's out there but many women are too embarrassed to ever breathe a word of it. It was the worst shame I can remember. I was rejected on my wedding night and for much of my marriage.
> 
> An H who is rejected by his W gains sympathy (she's "a cold fish"), whereas a W who is rejected by her H "must have something wrong with her."
> 
> Man or woman - sexless marriages hurt.



I have a question... I would assume (excuse me for doing that) if you were rejected on your wedding night, was this occuring before the wedding? IF so, why get married. OR did he get drunk and the worm went limp?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

cantmove said:


> If someone withholds sex out of some sense of power they are completely wrong. I don't believe that most people that are married but not having sex are doing it on purpose. Does someone that decides to cheat, when they aren't getting enough, ever look in the mirror and ask themselves why? Do they evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that maybe they are just as much to blame as their spouse?
> 
> Sometimes when the sex is bad, it can be about lack of trust, criticism, not feeling loved or safe. Sometimes you can want sex really badly and not be able to for those sorts of reasons. Should that person talk about it? Absolutely. They both should and if they can't fix it, they should walk away from each other, not go out and f#ck someone else. Clearly just my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

However, I cheated after 13 years of marriage and 5+ years of being basically ignored. When we did have sex it was like a chore for her. I did my analysis of our relationship years before cheating. I spent 5 years in a neglected undesired h ell. I spoke to her about it and she would always acknowledge but nothing would change; I did more chores to take weight off her, I complimented her more... I did all the things she claimed to want. I got sex... bland chore sex from a woman more interested in being a mom than a wife. Eventually I decided to up my own attractiveness by dressing better, increasing individual activities I like, working out and building up my social life - as a single guy would. If you read things like the "married man's sex life primer" which I read later, that's exactly what to do to trigger her... to make her feel she has to do some chasing again. It didn't work. In the end I blamed the kids, I blamed my sexual performance... I blamed anything and everything and drove myself crazy with trying to fix everything about myself.

I liked my home, my family and my wife. She didn't desire me or want to do things with me, and eventually I bumped into someone that did. All along I had no intention of leaving my wife. In retrospect, I would have divorced to just to speed up the inevitable. Even after discovery we both wanted to keep our family together, but there was never an improvement in sex or making me a priority... and now I realized I had options, and I opted to leave.

So you say if you're going to cheat, you should get a divorce? I say if you're not going to have sex with your spouse, YOU should get a divorce. Cheating is far less cruel than starving someone of affection for years.


----------



## Ostera

Holland said:


> This was the case for my ex and now that i am in a healthy, balanced relationship it is even more glaringly obvious. *Ex comes from a family where poor communication skills are the norm*. It destroyed us. He is not a bad man and it was not a power play I don't believe on his part but when a couple cannot even talk about simple issues around sex then it is a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> FK you have hit the nail, there are all sorts of reasons for why things happen in relationships. My point of contention earlier was with the assumption that men with hold sex because it was originally the woman with holding, this may be so for some but I would never say that it is the case with "many".
> 
> *TBH I think lack of communication skills is the basis for most of the issues in marriages, not necessarily the catalyst but without the ability to communicate nothing gets resolved*.



Ding! Ding! Ding! 

We have a winner.... my x told me at the beginning of our relationship sex was very important for her (good communication). I liked it. We had all kinds of sex hot sex. Breakin the arm off of one of the sofa sex. Toy sex, anal. BUT she never gave oral and told me if I didn't please her she wouldn't stay in the relationship... of course I didn't complain.

She also wasn't comfortable with touching me *there*. (Okay, suppose I can live with that because the 'sex' was still good).

Then it turned into... you lay on your back, I give you an oral orgasm, I get on top of you and then I roll off of you.

When I asked why has everything changed? Answer: I was trying to impress you. Really, so at the beginning the 'communication' we had turned into a bait and switch...

I started to resent her... she witheld even more.. tried to talk about it.. she shuts down because it 'makes her uncomfortable'. 

Oh, I see. Now we can't communicate because that's the way you were raised. Come to find out her mom taught her sex was a wifely 'duty'... therefore a chore or job... kind of takes the romanace out of everything.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Holland said:


> I didn't miss understand. The original quote says that many women are rejected by men because the woman originally rejected the man which is not the case at all.


Uhm... but many women are rejected by men because the woman originally rejected the man. You have two examples in this thread alone.

Its called getting even.


----------



## Holland

DvlsAdvc8 you are totally missing the point of what I was originally talking about.

The assumption made by brookeT that "many" women are in sexless marriages because they are at fault. If you read my posts you will see that I said that this unfounded assumption is very damaging.

I think you are arguing for the sake of it here.


----------



## Lon

Yes, getting even goes both ways... Once resentment sets in neither wants to initiate and both complain that the other won't initiate, even if both are horny as hell. Happened in my sexless marriage, I will, accept the blame for my part, and would absolutely do it differently if I could go back in time. However it still doesn't justify cheating, only excessive masturbation


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Holland said:


> DvlsAdvc8 you are totally missing the point of what I was originally talking about.
> 
> The assumption made by brookeT that "many" women are in sexless marriages because they are at fault. If you read my posts you will see that I said that this unfounded assumption is very damaging.
> 
> I think you are arguing for the sake of it here.


Many women ARE in sexless marriages because they are at fault for rejecting their husbands and sewing the seeds of his resentment that now rejects them in return.

Just because YOU are not one of them, doesn't mean the statement is not true. I am not arguing for the sake of it. I *AM* a man who eventually gave his wife the same treatment she gave me.

You have two men in this thread alone who responded similarly... so clearly it is the case for *many* women even if its not the case for YOU.

I tried to fix things in my marriage for years to no avail. My confidence was absolutely destroyed and I held so much resentment for her that after a certain point, I didn't want to touch her anymore. It wasn't until a younger woman started showing interest that I even began to start feeling better about myself.


----------



## Holland

2 men in a random thread do not make "many". If you care to read my posts my objection to what was said was that on a forum it is dangerous for non professional people to make such sweeping (incorrect) assumptions. 

Based on what my counsellor says and much anecdotal evidence here and elsewhere then to say that "many" women that do want to share a sexual relationship with their husbands but are not getting that from them. are to blame is simply incorrect.

You seem to be mirroring and not actually listening.


----------



## Cosmos

Holland said:


> 2 men in a random thread do not make "many". If you care to read my posts my objection to what was said was that on a forum it is dangerous for non professional people to make such sweeping (incorrect) assumptions.
> 
> Based on what my counsellor says and much anecdotal evidence here and elsewhere then to say that "many" women that do want to share a sexual relationship with their husbands but are not getting that from them. are to blame is simply incorrect.
> 
> You seem to be mirroring and not actually listening.


:iagree:

It would be rather like saying that the reason why many men are rejected by their W's is because they're lousy lovers. This may be the case with some, but certainly not with all.

No matter what our gender, to be rejected and deprived of physical intimacy is extremely painful.


----------



## BrookeT

The hyper sensitivity in this thread is hilarious. Seriously.


----------



## Cosmos

BrookeT said:


> The hyper sensitivity in this thread is hilarious. Seriously.


Not really. I'd say it's understandable in people who are are suffering. I find nothing hilarious about that.

I found myself triggered by some insensitive comments in this thread, even though my experience was a life time ago.


----------



## Holland

BrookeT said:


> The hyper sensitivity in this thread is hilarious. Seriously.


Wow really, that is your response. OK speaks volumes.


----------



## cantmove

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it.
> 
> However, I cheated after 13 years of marriage and 5+ years of being basically ignored. When we did have sex it was like a chore for her. I did my analysis of our relationship years before cheating. I spent 5 years in a neglected undesired h ell. I spoke to her about it and she would always acknowledge but nothing would change; I did more chores to take weight off her, I complimented her more... I did all the things she claimed to want. I got sex... bland chore sex from a woman more interested in being a mom than a wife. Eventually I decided to up my own attractiveness by dressing better, increasing individual activities I like, working out and building up my social life - as a single guy would. If you read things like the "married man's sex life primer" which I read later, that's exactly what to do to trigger her... to make her feel she has to do some chasing again. It didn't work. In the end I blamed the kids, I blamed my sexual performance... I blamed anything and everything and drove myself crazy with trying to fix everything about myself.
> 
> I liked my home, my family and my wife. She didn't desire me or want to do things with me, and eventually I bumped into someone that did. All along I had no intention of leaving my wife. In retrospect, I would have divorced to just to speed up the inevitable. Even after discovery we both wanted to keep our family together, but there was never an improvement in sex or making me a priority... and now I realized I had options, and I opted to leave.
> 
> So you say if you're going to cheat, you should get a divorce? I say if you're not going to have sex with your spouse, YOU should get a divorce. Cheating is far less cruel than starving someone of affection for years.



While I understand that you felt neglected and lonely, the adult decision would have been to get help and say if this doesn't get fixed I'm leaving you. You had a choice and you made the selfish one. That's just how I feel about infidelity.

My situation was not the same. I didn't withhold sex on purpose ever. We had a good sex life before he cheated. We hit a rough patch going through infertility treatment for two years. Sex did become about babies to some degree as opposed to fun. It was a very stressful situation. That's when he started cheating.

One of his employees was telling him how wonderful and talented he was because he had just opened up a very successful restaurant. He needed his ego stroked and apparently I didn't do it enough. He cheated the entire time I was pregnant and continued until someone found out and told me. I forgave him but our sex life took a hit for a while. It didn't matter he never really stopped seeing her.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

cantmove said:


> Yes, but that's called being a narcissistic ass, not a decent human being.


Really? REALLY?? I love 99% of my relationship with my wife but she could care less about sex / physical intimacy and it is destroying me.

Have I cheated? NO. Do I want to cheat? NO. Will I cheat? I don't know anymore... Never thought I would.

We have talked the issue to death and I am tired. She doesn't even really know what the problem is and doesn't seem to care about fixing it. It is probably me but she claims it isn't. And that is possibly true because she gives no indication of sexuality about ANYTHING or ANYONE. So I am a narcissist because I like being married to my wife but I want to feel desired???


----------



## Lon

frustr8dhubby said:


> Really? REALLY?? I love 99% of my relationship with my wife but she could care less about sex / physical intimacy and it is destroying me.
> 
> Have I cheated? NO. Do I want to cheat? NO. Will I cheat? I don't know anymore... Never thought I would.
> 
> We have talked the issue to death and I am tired. She doesn't even really know what the problem is and doesn't seem to care about fixing it. It is probably me but she claims it isn't. And that is possibly true because she gives no indication of sexuality about ANYTHING or ANYONE. So I am a narcissist because I like being married to my wife but I want to feel desired???


Narcissism would be writing off the 99% good things about your marriage, and destroying it all without looking back, just to get the 1% because you think you can get the 100% that way, even if it means the one you love end up with zero.


----------



## cantmove

frustr8dhubby said:


> Really? REALLY?? I love 99% of my relationship with my wife but she could care less about sex / physical intimacy and it is destroying me.
> 
> Have I cheated? NO. Do I want to cheat? NO. Will I cheat? I don't know anymore... Never thought I would.
> 
> We have talked the issue to death and I am tired. She doesn't even really know what the problem is and doesn't seem to care about fixing it. It is probably me but she claims it isn't. And that is possibly true because she gives no indication of sexuality about ANYTHING or ANYONE. So I am a narcissist because I like being married to my wife but I want to feel desired???



That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm sorry that you have those issues in your marriage, I really am. You haven't cheated and that is great. I understand wanting to feel desired by your spouse yet not being desired at all. I've been there. I chose to remain faithful. 

What I think is narcissistic is being in a marriage where things aren't going your way, and making the self absorbed decision that you deserve whatever is missing, so you get it elsewhere. All I'm saying is, that if you are in a sexless marriage and your partner is refusing to work on it then you should make the decision to end the marriage, not cheat. 

Maybe people who haven't been cheated on can't understand that. Plus I'll admit I may be generalizing a little. My stbx is narcissistic and we didn't have a sexless marriage. Yet instead of coming to me with the issues he wasn't happy about, he chose to cheat.


----------



## cantmove

I really shouldn't be in this thread at all. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I apologize for anything I said that was offensive.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

cantmove said:


> That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm sorry that you have those issues in your marriage, I really am. You haven't cheated and that is great. I understand wanting to feel desired by your spouse yet not being desired at all. I've been there. I chose to remain faithful.
> 
> What I think is narcissistic is being in a marriage where things aren't going your way, and making the self absorbed decision that you deserve whatever is missing, so you get it elsewhere. All I'm saying is, that if you are in a sexless marriage and your partner is refusing to work on it then you should make the decision to end the marriage, not cheat.
> 
> Maybe people who haven't been cheated on can't understand that. Plus I'll admit I may be generalizing a little. My stbx is narcissistic and we didn't have a sexless marriage. Yet instead of coming to me with the issues he wasn't happy about, he chose to cheat.


Actually I was cheated on by my first wife. I know that leaving first is the "right" thing to do. I have told her as much.

Lon, I understand your point but the 1% is going to destroy the 99% over time. I see it coming. Resentment has crept its ugly head in, in the last 2 years.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

cantmove said:


> I really shouldn't be in this thread at all. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I apologize for anything I said that was offensive.


I am not offended, just sensitive...


----------



## Lon

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I was cheated on by my first wife. I know that leaving first is the "right" thing to do. I have told her as much.
> 
> Lon, I understand your point but the 1% is going to destroy the 99% over time. I see it coming. Resentment has crept its ugly head in, in the last 2 years.


well a more honest approach is to admit that sex is worth a lot more than 1%. And the longer that need is neglected the more weighted it becomes, and to make it all the more complicated, sexual needs are never the responsibility of someone else, it is your responsibility to make sure those are met in a way that is healthy and fits within your moral fiber.

I think a lot of times we are lead to believe that in marriage it is up to our spouse to meet our specific relationship needs, but I'm beginning to think that is not the case at all, in an exclusive relationship our role is merely to offer our qualities in exchange for a mutually beneficial arrangement, so if we lose our qualities, struggle to understand them or withhold them, or when our partner does, the arrangement is no longer mutually beneficial, and the deal becomes breakable until we can find a way to restore the qualities or offer up other ones.

What is deceitful is when the net benefit is only one way with no real effort by the taker to restore mutual benefit, that is what separates the narcissist from others.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Lon,

I am not quite sure I get you? Are you saying that *I* am responsible for fixing our sex life? You might be right, it might be me but without a clue as to what to "fix", what is a person to do?

I have made this analogy before but it is like getting the tires changed on my car because the oil light comes on...???


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It would be rather like saying that the reason why many men are rejected by their W's is because they're lousy lovers. This may be the case with some, but certainly not with all.
> 
> No matter what our gender, to be rejected and deprived of physical intimacy is extremely painful.


I'm ABSOLUTELY sure MANY men ARE rejected because they're lousy lovers. Doesn't bother me at all.

I stand by my original assessment. Many men reject their wives out of resentment for having been previously rejected. At some point, we get sick of chasing it and don't care anymore.

This thread with only maybe a dozen participants, and you already have two examples.

man·y

[ ménnee ] 

1.considerable number: a considerable number of people or things
2.large number: a large number of people or things
3.each of considerable number: each of a considerable number


How many do you need in order to use the term "many"? Having discussed this before, and browsed this forum, I've seen MANY more. Assuming you're in the US, a nation of 300+ million, even if we just GUESSED only 1% of the population were lousy lovers or rejected their low drive spouses in retribution, you're still talking 3 MILLION people.

Is that enough to qualify as many? Note that many does not mean all, most, or a majority. It simply means a large number.

Many men certainly do reject their wives as a result of having been previously rejected. You've made it clear you weren't one of those rejecting wives, so why does the statement even bother you?

A quick browse through women's sexual posts/complaints in this forum hints that *many* men likely suck in bed too. I don't find that hurtful to me at all.


----------



## Lon

frustr8dhubby said:


> Lon,
> 
> I am not quite sure I get you? Are you saying that *I* am responsible for fixing our sex life? You might be right, it might be me but without a clue as to what to "fix", what is a person to do?
> 
> I have made this analogy before but it is like getting the tires changed on my car because the oil light comes on...???


You are responsible to decide what you need and how you will get it.

You can survive without sex, people do all the time... Is it healthy? Maybe for some, not for others. If you were to never have sex again, could you still be happy with everything else in your marriage, would life still be fulfilling? If not then you have identified a need for sex with a partner. So the next question is can your W offer you the qualities that would help fulfill your need for sex with a partner? If so (and it is completely between you two as to what exactly this means) then you can make your marriage work, if not well then it's a dealbreaker, no amount of complaining or pining for her to do the one thing she can't will change it, withholding does not equalize anything it just guarantees mutual loss. Cheating does not restore any kind of mutual benefit to the arrangement, so if you are not getting net benefit from the marriage and are not willing to tolerate it any longer it means having to give up what good things there are in the marriage purely because it is still not enough.

Using the car analogy, it's like having a showroom Lamborghini but its missing all the spark plugs, and the dealership just can't find any for it because they are discontinued.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

cantmove said:


> the adult decision would have been to get help and say if this doesn't get fixed I'm leaving you. You had a choice and you made the selfish one. That's just how I feel about infidelity.


You're naive if you think its that easy to just drop your family and life. I understand infidelity is hurtful, but neglect is no less hurtful. She didn't leave me over the infidelity, and I didn't leave her over the neglect. Its just not that simple.

I get really sick of hearing infidelity touted as some pariah of sins while everything else is brushed under the rug. You know what? I'd prefer my wife to have cheated on me over being neglected for 5 years and wondering what *I* was doing wrong, or why my priorities were no longer important to her.

To each his own about what is truly selfish.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> Narcissism would be writing off the 99% good things about your marriage, and destroying it all without looking back, just to get the 1% because you think you can get the 100% that way, even if it means the one you love end up with zero.


That 1% just happens to be a pretty darn important thing.

The way I see these circumstances, sex is affection and affection is implicit in one's marital vows. So why judge a person over breaking one part of the vow and not judge another person for breaking a different part?

Someone says, "You shouldn't cheat, you should divorce." I reply, "You shouldn't neglect, you should divorce."


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

cantmove said:


> I really shouldn't be in this thread at all. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I apologize for anything I said that was offensive.


You're ok. Emotional issues get heated. Goes with the territory.


----------



## Lon

As a betrayed spouse, i'd just like to take the opportunity to informs you, my ex and I equally neglected each other, it was awful, life was miserable and becoming hopeless... I'd like to think equally, however I never saw much point in comparing the pain. But yet as a loyal spouse, even though I may have sucked I was still vested in the marriage, but her solution was to cheat, and the devastation of that to me is not even close to in the same realm of the pain I felt from the neglect of a checked out W.

As hurtful as your marriage is right now, your W faces similar pain, but if you cheat you will pile unbearable loads more on her, if she is still vested in the marriage.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I was cheated on by my first wife. I know that leaving first is the "right" thing to do. I have told her as much.
> 
> Lon, I understand your point but the 1% is going to destroy the 99% over time. I see it coming. Resentment has crept its ugly head in, in the last 2 years.


You sound like me 3 years and a lot of grief and attempts to "fix" myself before I cheated. Beware the friendly girl.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> What is deceitful is when the net benefit is only one way with no real effort by the taker to restore mutual benefit, that is what separates the narcissist from others.


Ah, so neglectful wives ought to be classified narcissists too then. She should divorce if she's not going to put "real effort [...] to restore mutual benefit".

I'm sick of these people getting left off the hook while everyone rants about infidelity. If I have to put up with being ignored, she can put up with being cheated on... and that's that.

Don't want your spouse stepping out. Don't neglect their needs. The latter is just as divorce worthy, so I hate when someone says I should have gotten a divorce rather than cheat while giving a pass on the fact my wife didn't ask for divorce before she basically started ignoring me.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Ah, so neglectful wives ought to be classified narcissists too then. She should divorce if she's not going to put "real effort [...] to restore mutual benefit".
> 
> I'm sick of these people getting left off the hook while everyone rants about infidelity. If I have to put up with being ignored, she can put up with being cheated on... and that's that.
> 
> Don't want your spouse stepping out. Don't neglect their needs.


I am certainly agreeing that if she is willfully taking and knowingly not offering anything to the relationship, nor willing to restore her qualities in it, absolutely that's a dealbreaker - as to narcissism, if she has no shame about it, has entitlement issues and expects that her willful neglect of the relationship is the path to fulfillment, then yes she is narcissistic.

But as to the attitude that since you are ignored then she can put up with being cheated on, I staunchly disagree with that. If it is so clear that you are being ignored, then why wouldn't you WANT to get divorced from such a hurtful person?

You said it's naive to think it's that easy to drop your family and life, I'm suggesting it's naive to think that by cheating you are not doing the exact same thing but in a specifically hurtful and more traumatic way, to pile on just a little more pain to send a message or equalize the pain somehow, except if she isn't narcissistic and just stuck in her rut you would be going beyond over-correcting. I'd just ask you to be not so cruel, even if she is a N, just let go of her, get the divorce and move on with your life.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I have not been following this thread at all... so forgive me.....

How I personally View the Neglecting partner Vs the High Driver who falls ...when it otherwise would have never happened..... 

I am no longer religious... but I use this scripture anyway...for those who claim a belief in God...it seems even HE has something to say about this...



> *1 Corinthians 7: 3-5* The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband.
> 
> In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.
> 
> Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


 The only problem I personally have with these scriptures is 1 thing... blaming it on SATAN... That is far too easy for me.... why is He the scapegoat here ... Nope, I BLAME it on the refusing cold rejecting callous spouse who is willfully spitting on the marraige bed, might as well be teasing you saying ..."ha ha ha, you can't have me". 

Even God understands THIS temptation (if one believes in scripture that is).

Me & my husband feel as this, that our bodies are not our own but to lovingly yield to each other... we see this as beautiful/giving of each other... the way our Creature designed it to BE. If things are not right within the marriage ....abuse/ resentment / angry emotions.....this is a warning...Work on it - get back to the Good/ harmony with each other...

I see the REFUSER as planting the destructive seed & watering it's roots ...who willingly put a stake through the







of the marriage & is standing there watching it bleed day after day after day... while their spouse grows weaker & weaker & weaker... feeling worthless, empty, broken, like a man thirsting in the desert... the sheer emotional pain the refuser emanates night after night after night .... allowing her man to go to bed with a "loaded gun" & turning a blind eye....* I feel nothing but empathy for such spouses. *

What really rattles my cage is when some call the refusers INNOCENT.....I do not see them all as innocent by any means...they are not harmless doves who stood by the marriage & watered their own husband's gardens. I see them as neglectful, and willfully hurtful... even provoking their loved one to temptation and anger in many of these situations. Each is so different that only GOD himself could weigh in on who was hurt more so. 

The Sexually neglected spouse needs to clang some warning bells -even if they raise the roof off the house ...

Speaking something like...."Look -







, I want you....but this is a core need of mine...Love is not enough to sustain me... I feel loved by making Love...I didn't take vows to be celibate & we go about as Roommates.... so I am asking you to work with me here...agree to counseling, bloodwork to rule out where your sex drive is, meet me half way, or I will divorce you to find the intimacy I deeply crave in this life...my own happiness is important to me"....

Better to be point blank HONEST and PI$$ED than Sweet /passive and end up a LIAR leading to a secret affair......and God help them if they stand to loose their children & house over this (generally why too many take the easier road)....I doublely feel for them -I would be angry as hell if I was in their shoes ....this is not fair at all...

I have A LOT of sympathy for the high driving spouse IF they are the type that has been heart shatteringly neglected....if they have tried, prayed, went out of their way to arouse, please & care, meeting the others Love languages, desperately trying to save the marriage ...hanging on to HOPE...*those LIKE frustr8dhubby *...if they have been honorable for years... faithful & true, doing their part .....when they become so beaten down, reduced to an empty shell ....because they feel like they are in a passionless prison...it's just very sad. I've read too many stories on TAM. 

If THESE Good hearted men & women fall into something... I can sympathize to HOW it happened. In those cases, I believe they still loved their spouse deeply --and even should be forgiven - in some cases, it accualy TAKES this to wake some spouses up from the sexless grave. 

When someone can not see their own HAND in what brings these horrendous things upon a marriage, well... It would be best to leave those types anyway --leave them in the dust.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Uhm... but many women are rejected by men because the woman originally rejected the man. You have two examples in this thread alone.
> 
> Its called getting even.


It's called blaming the woman which it not much of a manly thing to do when you think about it.


----------



## Ostera

Let me chime in again with how I a perfect storm happens. As most know if they have read my posts that my stbxw cheated on me several times. Although very pretty she has esteem issues, body image issues, VERY strong BPD/NPD traits, etc.

She comes from a highly disfunctional family where her father always cheated on her mom. She witnessed her mother have a nervous breakdown when she was 8 yrs old over this. 

She believes that EVERY man cheats because that is the knowledge base she grew up with, hence she told me she cheats first before her man can. (pretty sick thinking, huh?)

Anyway the first time she cheated she thought I was still in love with my previous wife (who I hadn't talked to in 5 freaking years).

So, she went to her X's house and spent the night. 

What does that do? I resent her. She would say stupid sh1t like, " Even though you think we took 2 steps back, I think we took 2 steps forward in our marriage." WTF?

Later on when the sex starts cooling down and I get rejected time and again, I just stopped trying. What's the point of gettng my ego damaged anymore... I didn't withold it... I didn't want my ego damaged anymore.

So what happens.. end up not feeding her very fragile ego. What does she do? She has to go out and find 'fulfillment' somewhere else.

My case is probably unique to say the least.. but when you are with someone who needs to be 'admired' by men... she can't be with just one. 

She tired of my affection... it's like eating the same food everyday.

She needed 'new' food to boost her esteem. 

That's how we got to where we are.. But like I said.. my situation is probably unique on why women withold sex... anyone like mine doesn't know how to be in 'real' love.. BPDers don't know how.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> But as to the attitude that since you are ignored then she can put up with being cheated on, I staunchly disagree with that. If it is so clear that you are being ignored, then why wouldn't you WANT to get divorced from such a hurtful person?
> 
> You said it's naive to think it's that easy to drop your family and life, I'm suggesting it's naive to think that by cheating you are not doing the exact same thing but in a specifically hurtful and more traumatic way, to pile on just a little more pain to send a message or equalize the pain somehow, except if she isn't narcissistic and just stuck in her rut you would be going beyond over-correcting. I'd just ask you to be not so cruel, even if she is a N, just let go of her, get the divorce and move on with your life.


My situation is already over and done with. But looking back I have no guilt over it. As far as I'm concerned she should have ended the marriage when she decided to check out.

It wasn't a rut. I attempted to address our problems repeatedly for 5 years before I happened to meet someone and stepped out. Nothing ever changed. After I was discovered, we stayed together for a little while longer; both of us wanting to keep the family together. We tried to re-engage but it remained exactly as it was before I ever cheated. The end.

She never felt she did anything wrong, and so I certainly don't feel any sympathy for having stepped out. I don't care what her intentions were. I felt the results and talked to her about it for years.

I'll never forgive her for the hell I went through analyzing everything about myself and never feeling good enough or appreciated. Screw that.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Ten_year_hubby said:


> It's called blaming the woman which it not much of a manly thing to do when you think about it.


Oh noes!! Someone on the internet is attacking my manhood. Sell that trash elsewhere.

I did all the heavy lifting in the relationship for 5 years. She put me through my own inner hell. She got what she deserved.

They never have responsibility do they though? Its always the man's fault. He's ignoring her at home an she cheats: his fault. He cheats for any reason: his fault. Blah blah blah.

"I think of a man and take away reason and responsibility."


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I did all the heavy lifting in the relationship for 5 years. She put me through hell. She got what she deserved.


I don't think I could ever regard someone I once loved in that way, even my own ex whom caused me more pain than I could have imagined.

It's not about the man or the woman always being in the wrong, it is about treating those you say you love, lovingly.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> I don't think I could ever regard someone I once loved in that way, even my own ex whom caused me more pain than I could have imagined.
> 
> It's not about the man or the woman always being in the wrong, it is about treating those you say you love, lovingly.


Eventually you stop loving someone that doesn't show you any love. I'm STILL angry.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Eventually you stop loving someone that doesn't show you any love. I'm STILL angry.


The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Anger is your own emotion, it doesn't belong to her, choose to live with it or if it's a barrier figure out how to overcome it. but you own it.


----------



## Cosmos

Ostera said:


> I have a question... I would assume (excuse me for doing that) if you were rejected on your wedding night, was this occuring before the wedding? IF so, why get married. OR did he get drunk and the worm went limp?


I was a virgin on my wedding night (big mistake, I know), and had no way of knowing that the 'petting' that we'd indulged in before that was about as far as he would want to go. He had no erectile problems - just lack of desire.


----------



## Cosmos

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I stand by my original assessment. Many men reject their wives out of resentment for having been previously rejected. At some point, we get sick of chasing it and don't
> Many men certainly do reject their wives as a result of having been previously rejected. You've made it clear you weren't one of those rejecting wives, so why does the statement even bother you?



The only thing that bothers me is the apparent assumption that the only reason some men may reject their wives is because their wives have previously rejected them. Basically, this implies that it is always the woman's fault.

There are 2 of us in this thread stating that this hasn't been our personal experience...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Cosmos said:


> The only thing that bothers me is the apparent assumption that the only reason some men may reject their wives is because their wives have previously rejected them. Basically, this implies that it is always the woman's fault.
> 
> There are 2 of us in this thread stating that this hasn't been our personal experience...


If you're making that assumption, I assure you it is not the case and you can rest easy as it is not the case I'm making. Many in no way means all, or even most.

There's a reason "I have a headache" is a female charicature quote and not male... every married guy I know has heard some excuse or another at some time they thought was bs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of men who reject their wives without provocation too.

Another common example is women who have a problem with their guy ever watching porn. She feels undesired and thus doesn't want sex and the guy percieves it as a rejection and doesn't understand why a romance novel is acceptable for her, but porn isn't acceptable for him. Who's at fault?

While there may be men who simply don't have interest in sex, I think they're not nearly as common as people who reject their partner with cause... things they've done to make them feel undesired. Porn, neglect or out right put downs and the like.


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## Therealbrighteyes

BrookeT said:


> Sure. In many cases where that happens though, it's usually because the man has been shot down by his wife so many times he has no confidence left and gives up.
> 
> Not tying to sound like a woman hater, since I am one  It simply amazes me how often it happens though. A very good friend of mine had her husband cheat with a 23 year old co-worker, when we were talking about it she revealed they hadn't had sex in 5 months. 5 MONTHS! She said he had tried, multiple times a week, and she would turn him down because she didn't "feel like it".


Interesting mindset you have. Wife doesn't want sex = her fault. Husband doesn't want sex = wife's fault.

I don't know your friend but I sure know mine. Only three of them have husbands who actually listen to them. They ignore them in favor of football, video games, friends, hobbies, porn, etc., but then come 11:00pm they want to have sex. Small wonder their wives don't. 

It certainly sounds like you are blaming your friend for her husbands cheating. He made that choice and his actions are entirely his own. Is your friend aware that you think it is her fault that her husband cheated?


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## Holland

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Oh noes!! Someone on the internet is attacking my manhood. Sell that trash elsewhere.
> 
> I did all the heavy lifting in the relationship for 5 years. She put me through my own inner hell. She got what she deserved.
> 
> They never have responsibility do they though? Its always the man's fault. He's ignoring her at home an she cheats: his fault. He cheats for any reason: his fault. Blah blah blah.
> 
> "I think of a man and take away reason and responsibility."


I get it, you are very jaded but this mindset will not set you free for the future. 

My ex ignored my needs but I didn't resort to cheating. I tried and tried and then tried again but I did the respectful thing (for myself and for him) and that was to end the marriage before having sex with someone else.

In the end you may think your wife got what she deserved but you have sold yourself short, you actually cheated on yourself and lowered your self worth.

End one before starting with another, it is a simple motto but it pays off in the end.


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## BrookeT

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Interesting mindset you have. Wife doesn't want sex = her fault. Husband doesn't want sex = wife's fault.
> 
> I don't know your friend but I sure know mine. Only three of them have husbands who actually listen to them. They ignore them in favor of football, video games, friends, hobbies, porn, etc., but then come 11:00pm they want to have sex. Small wonder their wives don't.
> 
> It certainly sounds like you are blaming your friend for her husbands cheating. He made that choice and his actions are entirely his own. Is your friend aware that you think it is her fault that her husband cheated?


There is a huge difference between not being in the mood a few times and rejecting someone multiple times a week for 5 straight months. Do I believe it's 100% her fault? No. Do I think what she did was a major contributing factor to her husband screwing a co-worker? You bet I do, and yes, she knows.


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## Cosmos

Holland said:


> I get it, you are very jaded but this mindset will not set you free for the future.
> 
> My ex ignored my needs but I didn't resort to cheating. I tried and tried and then tried again but I did the respectful thing (for myself and for him) and that was to end the marriage before having sex with someone else.
> 
> In the end you may think your wife got what she deserved but you have sold yourself short, you actually cheated on yourself and lowered your self worth.
> 
> End one before starting with another, it is a simple motto but it pays off in the end.


:iagree:

I stuck it out for 6 years, during which time I went for 2nd and 3rd opinions from counselors. I didn't take divorce lightly, but when I found myself responding to a man who showed some interest in me (but thankfully resisted), I knew it was time to end the marriage.


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## Therealbrighteyes

BrookeT said:


> There is a huge difference between not being in the mood a few times and rejecting someone multiple times a week for 5 straight months. Do I believe it's 100% her fault? No. Do I think what she did was a major contributing factor to her husband screwing a co-worker? You bet I do, and yes, she knows.


Did she give you a reason for why she didn't want sex?


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## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Husband doesn't want sex = wife's fault.


I don't think she was declaring that this is the case with all husbands that don't want sex. Many husbands stop wanting sex with their wives after getting shot down themselves so often. I'm sure there are others that simply aren't into sex. Yall are blowing this out of proportion, but I certainly think the latter is less common. :\

As for a woman not having sex with her husband because he doesn't talk to her enough, or is distracted with video games, porn etc... so its ok to withhold sex as a punishment then? Do you know the biggest reason we play video games? We're BORED.

Here's a thought: play the video game if you want to talk to him. Do something he wants to do for once. Why does the husband always have to come into the woman's world in order to have interaction? Cuz you know, lifetime movies bore the living crap outta us. And if you have kids, we don't really want every conversation to be about what the kids did today.

I have a friend whose wife demanded that he never look at porn again or she wouldn't have sex with him. He quit, but meanwhile she reads all the romance novels she wants.

Typical. THIS is why I have the attitude I do. I'll never let sex control me or alter my behavior again. When a partner poisons the sexual well that's supposed to serve a mutual benefit, in order to coerce, no one should be surprised when the other partner digs a new well.

Sex isn't a bargaining chip. Woe to the woman who decides to use it as such.


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## cloudwithleggs

Goldmember357 said:


> This is what i tell people but they DONT WANT TO BELIEVE
> 
> monogamy is not natural for human beings but its more in the favor of the female traditionally than that of the male. I say this and everyone wishes to argue and play devil's advocate! Understanding human evolution along with researching it opens the doors to many interesting things about our existence.


I think it is favourable for women not to be monogamous.

Higamous hogamous, women aren't truly monogamous | Psychology Today


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## Deejo

cloudwithleggs said:


> I think it is favourable for women not to be monogamous.
> 
> Higamous hogamous, women aren't truly monogamous | Psychology Today


Written by a doctor whose last name is 'Ley'. Beautiful.
Great read.

But lets not forget, we are complex, spiritual creatures, compelled to rise above our animal instincts, and in no way encumbered by the baseness of 'biology'. 

If it weren't for our 'baser' instincts, there wouldn't be 7 billion of us, and a large number of those kicking about looking for copies of "His Needs, Her Needs".

Back to the main topic, and I found this article to be a wonderful realignment ...

Nobody needs to 'lose faith' in either gender. Recognizing the idiosyncrasies of each, would serve both much better. 

But then again, blaming each other keeps these boards kind of hopping. 

Carry on.


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## stopandmakecoffee

michzz said:


> Yet she rewrites history and insists she has always wanted sex with me and it is me that turned her down. Go figure.


huh. I raised one eyebrow reading that.
sounds like nonsense.


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## Lon

michzz said:


> I don't think either gender has a lock on monogamy or cheating.
> 
> But I do think women who cheat are far better at covering their tracks.
> 
> As for the refusing sex thing goes, I stopped having sex three years ago with my now almost ex-wife once I knew the horrible scope of her cheating. That plus her barely interested in sex with me attitude had me finding her repulsive.
> 
> Yet she rewrites history and insists she has always wanted sex with me and it is me that turned her down. Go figure.


Michzz, I definitely relate about the sexless thing, my ex said the same thing, that it was me turning her down all the time. well, there were definitely a few times I was not in the mood, and definitely times she just demanded all my attention and I couldn't give it to her undivided because of stress and anxiety about other responsibilities, including ones she wasn't pulling her weight on (and ones I was neglecting too).

But she became so cold to me, when i did try to pursue she gave me a disgusted look, and that lasted for a.couple years and feels like it has caused so much damage, and really has me so confused about my confidence and sex drive (i honestly can't tell anymore where my libido lives, couldn't tell you if I was hd, ld, asexual, cause it's like I have no way to distinguish). And she, as my w, was the only relationship I've ever been able to guage it, sex with other partners doesn't provide me with any kind of benchmark, because it's only ever been about getting while the getting's good.


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## stopandmakecoffee

@michzz ~ then it's a duck? LOL. i'm sorry im not familiar with that saying. but here's what i mean, she sounds like nonsense.
if she wants to have sex with you, she WILL . so IMHO, no excuse, no but.


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## rundown

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have not been following this thread at all... so forgive me.....
> 
> How I personally View the Neglecting partner Vs the High Driver who falls ...when it otherwise would have never happened.....
> 
> I am no longer religious... but I use this scripture anyway...for those who claim a belief in God...it seems even HE has something to say about this...
> 
> 
> 
> The only problem I personally have with these scriptures is 1 thing... blaming it on SATAN... That is far too easy for me.... why is He the scapegoat here ... Nope, I BLAME it on the refusing cold rejecting callous spouse who is willfully spitting on the marraige bed, might as well be teasing you saying ..."ha ha ha, you can't have me".
> 
> Even God understands THIS temptation (if one believes in scripture that is).
> 
> Me & my husband feel as this, that our bodies are not our own but to lovingly yield to each other... we see this as beautiful/giving of each other... the way our Creature designed it to BE. If things are not right within the marriage ....abuse/ resentment / angry emotions.....this is a warning...Work on it - get back to the Good/ harmony with each other...
> 
> I see the REFUSER as planting the destructive seed & watering it's roots ...who willingly put a stake through the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> of the marriage & is standing there watching it bleed day after day after day... while their spouse grows weaker & weaker & weaker... feeling worthless, empty, broken, like a man thirsting in the desert... the sheer emotional pain the refuser emanates night after night after night .... allowing her man to go to bed with a "loaded gun" & turning a blind eye....* I feel nothing but empathy for such spouses. *
> 
> What really rattles my cage is when some call the refusers INNOCENT.....I do not see them all as innocent by any means...they are not harmless doves who stood by the marriage & watered their own husband's gardens. I see them as neglectful, and willfully hurtful... even provoking their loved one to temptation and anger in many of these situations. Each is so different that only GOD himself could weigh in on who was hurt more so.
> 
> The Sexually neglected spouse needs to clang some warning bells -even if they raise the roof off the house ...
> 
> Speaking something like...."Look -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , I want you....but this is a core need of mine...Love is not enough to sustain me... I feel loved by making Love...I didn't take vows to be celibate & we go about as Roommates.... so I am asking you to work with me here...agree to counseling, bloodwork to rule out where your sex drive is, meet me half way, or I will divorce you to find the intimacy I deeply crave in this life...my own happiness is important to me"....
> 
> Better to be point blank HONEST and PI$$ED than Sweet /passive and end up a LIAR leading to a secret affair......and God help them if they stand to loose their children & house over this (generally why too many take the easier road)....I doublely feel for them -I would be angry as hell if I was in their shoes ....this is not fair at all...
> 
> I have A LOT of sympathy for the high driving spouse IF they are the type that has been heart shatteringly neglected....if they have tried, prayed, went out of their way to arouse, please & care, meeting the others Love languages, desperately trying to save the marriage ...hanging on to HOPE...*those LIKE frustr8dhubby *...if they have been honorable for years... faithful & true, doing their part .....when they become so beaten down, reduced to an empty shell ....because they feel like they are in a passionless prison...it's just very sad. I've read too many stories on TAM.
> 
> If THESE Good hearted men & women fall into something... I can sympathize to HOW it happened. In those cases, I believe they still loved their spouse deeply --and even should be forgiven - in some cases, it accualy TAKES this to wake some spouses up from the sexless grave.
> 
> When someone can not see their own HAND in what brings these horrendous things upon a marriage, well... It would be best to leave those types anyway --leave them in the dust.



As always I love your poststs. What I find intresting here though is you are saying the same thing as a lot of other people here are saying (with a lot more grace of course) and yet nobody steps up to challenge you. I am wondering if that has anythig to do with your command over words or maybe it's just easier to go after a man with the same opinion? I think it's more of the former because to challenge you seems like it would be an up hill battle. Just a thought.

Edit: Just had another thought. Maybe it's because most people here know you have seen both sides of this coin and find it easier to go after the person who has only seen the HD side of the coin. Maybe just maybe they will have to realize that the side they are fighting for is the side that has it MUCH easier. Agian, just a thought.


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## ladybird

BrookeT said:


> What shocks me is women who, after marriage, stop having sex with thier husbands, then are totally stunned when said husband looks elsewhere.
> 
> It's not rocket science, men need sex, and equate sex with love. If you want to keep your man faithful......put real effort into your sex life. Once or twice a month isn't going to cut it.


 I was told - The key to a mans heart is through his stomach, (my mother)um NO, The key to a mans heart is through his d!ick. (and what I have learned the last 34 years of life)


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