# Looking for perspective - sex lacks interest and creativity



## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi ladies ☺,
It has been a while since I posted. My wife and I have a great relationship. We have persevered through some tough times, with many sexless years. You all on this forum helped me through that and our relationship is now stronger.

I am looking for some feedback from the ladies on our routine. I am happy to report that we are having sex a lot more often (~2x a week). However, it is almost scripted how it plays out. Here is the formula every time:


My wife always initiates (she likes it there way)
It is in the same place: the closet with a towel underneath
Always same position: Missionary
She keeps her eyes closed
We barely kiss (she does not like my makeout style anymore, or my breath smells like coffee, or I have not shaved in the last 12 hours). We never makout anymore.
She does not want me to go down on her
She will go down on me
She NEVER has an orgasm with me. She has had a few orgasms with more than 45 min of toy play.
She generally wants me to hurry up
No foreplay if we are having sex
I do feel we boost our connection a little when we have sex but we are stuck with this routine. I guess I am looking for deeper intimacy and more excitement. I am still very attracted to her.

Some background:

Married 25 years
We are both 45
4 boys ages 5 - 17
She is my first and only sex partner (other than oral with a few girlfriends before her)
We are a happy couple with little to complain about outside the bedroom
No marital infidelity that I am aware of. I did cheat on her once (oral) two months after we started dating and we were exclusive.
There was an instance of sexual abuse when she was a teenager
She has mild OCD which she is managing like a champ.
Thanks in advance for your input!

Hubby


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

What kind of input do you want? I'm not understanding....

That endless and always routine wouldn't work for me, but it is obviously what your wife wants your sex life to be.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Doesn't sound like it's really working for Hubby either.


Always same position: Missionary
She keeps her eyes closed
We barely kiss (she does not like my makeout style anymore, or my breath smells like coffee, or I have not shaved in the last 12 hours). We never makout anymore.
She does not want me to go down on her
She will go down on me
She NEVER has an orgasm with me. She has had a few orgasms with more than 45 min of toy play.
She generally wants me to hurry up
No foreplay if we are having sex
Looks like a good description of duty sex.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi Livve, my goal is ultimately to increase intimacy, engagement and excitement. I guess I am looking for advice on if I should just accept this as the way it is and move on or are there some verbal or non-verbal strategies to help her get out of her shell. 

There were times she would dress up in sexy costumes and we would venture outside the norm but that was a long time ago.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Nucking Futs said:


> Doesn't sound like it's really working for Hubby either.
> 
> 
> Always same position: Missionary
> ...


It does feel like she is just checking the box to get it done. I have to take some responsibility as I do not try to push her out of her comfort zone and we don't talk about sex much. I sometimes fell like I should just go for it to mix it up and see what happens. It seems action speeks louder than words in the sex department. Otherwise it comes across as nagging or being needy. Not a sexy look. Kids at home all the time does not help.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

hubby said:


> It does feel like she is just checking the box to get it done. I have to take some responsibility as I do not try to push her out of her comfort zone and we don't talk about sex much. I sometimes fell like I should just go for it to mix it up and see what happens. It seems action speeks louder than words in the sex department. Otherwise it comes across as nagging or being needy. Not a sexy look. Kids at home all the time does not help.


4 boys ages 5 - 17 home all the time? No, I imagine it doesn't help much. Probably explains the closet though.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Also, think back to all the old three stooges films you've seen. If you haven't seen any look them up on youtube and watch a few. Now, all those those slaps Mo dished out? That's what you deserve if you're not shaving and brushing your teeth for your wife. You think she wants your stubble dragging across her naughty bits?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Nucking Futs said:


> Also, think back to all the old three stooges films you've seen. If you haven't seen any look them up on youtube and watch a few. Now, all those those slaps Mo dished out? That's what you deserve if you're not shaving and brushing your teeth for your wife. You think she wants your stubble dragging across her naughty bits?


This is something I can work on. I do brush my teeth and shave every day but I might try to time it better. She prefers sex after her work out which gives me time to get fresh before. Good idea.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Why the hell are you having sex on the closet floor... What's your wife's reasoning behind that?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

bobert said:


> Why the hell are you having sex on the closet floor... What's your wife's reasoning behind that?


A few things:

Kids are usually awake
Bed and sheets are too sweaty/hot
Bed gets fluids on it/dirty
She has OCD
She likes it dark (little self conscious)
Less shaking - especially since she has been getting vertigo lately


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

hubby said:


> A few things:
> 
> Kids are usually awake
> Bed and sheets are too sweaty/hot
> ...


Well, some of the reasons still don't make sense. You could put a lock on the bedroom door... kid problem solved. You could get different sheets that aren't as hot and install a ceiling fan. The towel could be laid on the bed instead of the floor. You could turn off the bedroom lights and get blackout curtains. If the bed shakes or squeaks you could tighten it or the slats. 

Regardless, if you want it to change you have to make it change. She clearly won't do it and has no need or desire to. You shouldn't "settle" for duty sex in the closet. 

I'm biased but I have the feeling that the closet thing is more about shame and wanting to hide it, relating to the sexual assault. Most of her "reasons" don't make much sense.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

As long as your knees hold up and you don't get claustrophobia, you should be good, right? Seriously, all of those reasons are excuses.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

She also has an inverted uterus which can make sex painful if not in the right spot. I think that might be the big reason on the single position. That plus inability to orgasm could explain lack of desire.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

hubby said:


> She also has an inverted uterus which can make sex painful if not in the right spot. I think that might be the big reason on the single position. That plus inability to orgasm could explain lack of desire.


I assume you mean a titled or retroverted uterus, not inverted (inside out). So, what's her excuse for never going on top? That shouldn't hurt her. Generally any positions that are face to face are good to go.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

hubby said:


> That plus inability to orgasm could explain lack of desire.


She _can_ orgasm, with enough time and a toy. Which tells me that the issue is that she can't relax with you or doesn't feel safe enough with you. Possibly going back to that sexual abuse.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

hubby said:


> She also has an inverted uterus which can make sex painful if not in the right spot. I think that might be the big reason on the single position. That plus inability to orgasm could explain lack of desire.


Haaa sorry but you gave me a laugh today. Inverted is upside down!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I think that to switch things up you definitely have to initiate. At least once when you think she will be open for sex. If it doesn’t work, then you tried and it’s not a big deal. 

Have you ever tried joining her when she showers? Maybe not to have Intercourse right away, but for intimacy purposes. 

Just to learn more about you guys... does she refuse when you initiate? How does she like you to initiate? She seems to like to give more than receive, so does she like a dominant man to tell her what to do? Has she ever liked to receive oral sex? What other positions were successful in the past? 

Just off the top of my head, another position that she might like is her laying on the bed with half her body on the bed, and her legs either wrapped around you, or up on your shoulders as you stand next to the bed. I’m not sure if I am explaining this right, but let me know if you don’t know what I’m saying.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I have a retroverted uterus and the only position I had to avoid was doggy but that has changed over the years as I aged. Things have shifted around inside apparently and doggy is now back on the menu. I’m 47. Maybe you can introduce the idea of at least trying? And her on top shouldn’t be a problem.

bobert has lots of good suggestions. These issues are all easily resolved.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I do not understand why you are letting her to all the dictating? What about taking back some control and telling her what is on the menu tonight! Many women like that!


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

I would strongly encourage you to seek professional counseling if your wife is agreeable. You may also want to review books by Dr. John Gottman. My wife and my MC trainee under him and we each have read many of his books which we found very helpful. Check out the Gottman Institute


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

TL/DR - You won the battle but are losing the war. Negotiated sex rarely if ever yields desire. You want to show her love through passionate sex and she either does love you that way but doesn’t want to or she just doesn’t feel that way anymore and is doing it out of obligation. In the long-run it will destroy you emotionally so seek IC.

Would we be right in assuming that somewhere in the past you had a “spirited discussion” about your sex life and you came to some sort of agreement.

A couple of thoughts...

1. Looks like you negotiated twice-weekly intercourse. Not sex, not love making... intercourse. She really doesn’t want to but it is doing it out of obligation. The “contract” is you have but she sets the terms. As long as she doesn’t say no, she has the moral high ground and you have no reason to complain.

2. Once kids came along, my wife’s take of sex changed. Suddenly it was crude and something to be kept in a box that only comes out when conditions are right. If kids discovered their parents have sex it would be like metaphysical disaster. It’s like there’s some sort of shame in there. No more seducing, lingerie, sex “for sport” just another urge to be dealt with. Parents are just not supposed to sexual.

3. The abuse thing is real. Took 17 years for my wife to admit to a sexually traumatic event as a pre-teen when she had a panic attack mid-intercourse just because I said “it’d be nice if you gave me some attention for once.” To this day, and she will never admit it, really doesn’t like touching me sexually. She does it because that’s the cost of business but not thing she looks forward to. Sex is always a joint-thing. By that I mean, out of obligation, once a year she will surprise me and get me off with a manually or orally without her wanting and always tied to a birthday or Father’s Day. The healthy mindset is knowing your partner can only get pleasure and desire from you and you crave to give that to them. Abuse survivors equate pleasuring a partner with negative feelings.

4. Could be she has an avoidant personality. My wife does not like flirting, massage, making out, cuddling post-sex, talking about sex, being sexually aggressive, dressing up, fantasies, etc. At one point I told it her feels like Ike she just wants to get off. Once she climaxes first, it’s like watching someone anxious to flee a crime scene but knows they can’t leave their partner behind.

5. WRT to eye closing, most do this to focus as a fleeting thought about what you forgot to get a Target will ruin an orgasm. And a lot just aren’t turned on by seeing their partner naked.

6. Honestly, for some women sex just doesn’t mean the same as it does to a guy. And many wrongly think it’s solely about ejaculation. It’s how guys express love and feelings... it’s how we show passion. I think this is foreign to most women unless their partners are the ones not interested in sex. But one partner is put in an awful position. “I have no sexual desire for you, don’t want your expression of desire for me and oh BTW don’t you dare look for that somewhere else or I will burn you life to the ground.”

7. At her age, peri-menopause could be a factor. And could be she’s just not into that way anymore and that part of her life is over.

8. She does have an obligation to find her desire and not just go through the motions.

9. You can’t discount the kids and craziness of life but in my experience, some women emotionally prefer being moms more than being wives let alone girlfriends. They control the intimacy and vulnerability.

There probably is another side of the story and I think MC might help. Again, my wife had no idea what sex meant to me. She just went by what society. Getting negotiated sex can actually be worse and builds resentment. The message she needs to hear is that while she thinks what she’s doing is love is really obligation and a wife showing no passion makes a man feel like just a family member. Long-term its dangerous in a marriage to communicate the message of “I feel that way about you... just don’t make me show it.” 

WRT to what you can do? I would look to move away from negotiated sex as you are really trying to negotiate desire which never works... ever. Your wife just has to have sex, she doesn’t have to get anything out of it. She’s doing it out of obligation. You want her to enjoy sex but just having sex is her limit. I would start IC, tell her you are and start working on yourself because this is the long-term and you need to get your head around it. Then after a few sessions I would be honest and say you appreciate sex but don’t feel emotionally-connected because of all the rules, boundaries and negative feelings. But she also needs to realize the effect her trauma is having on you and what you are not getting through no fault of your own.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ok so you say you want to increase intimacy. You know you can do that without sex right? Yea 4 boys home all the time has got to make her paranoid that you guys will be heard.

You can hold hands, snuggle while watching tv. cuddle at night, talk.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I think 90% of this, including the OCD, can be linked back to the sexual abuse she experienced as a teen.

Has she ever had any treatment or talked to anyone about it?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi all,
Thanks for all the great feedback!

aaarghdub - I appreciate the detailed response. It has been a while since we had a real chat about our relationship - it is time for another one to get her perspective on how things are going. I am also going to look into IC. When our relationship was in a tough spot, I was actively looking for IC and my wife was pretty upset about the idea. She would not entertain couples counseling and I felt she would have a bit of resentment if I went. I need to do me though.

Anastasia6 - I agree! We are both fairly affectionate people. We hold hands a lot and the family has been doing a lot of TV nights together with the quarantine. Back when we were dating, we used to cuddle a lot and we both loved it. Now she does not like it much as it make her too hot. No arms around each other during TV, no cuddling, I can't really touch her when in bed or she complains it raises her body temp too much. I really do get more sense of intamacy if we hold each other for a long time but we don't do that anymore -- we have not for a long, long time.

frusdil - We only talked about it a few times when we first started dating. She never had treatment for it and I don't think she ever will. We did try couples counseling about 3 years into our marriage when things were bad. After a few sessions she felt the counselor was "siding with me". We then tried IC. She did it for about 2 sessions and I stuck with it for about a year.

Not and Livvie - good catch, it is a retroverted not introverted uterus. I think it is getting better as she has not complained in a while. I used to have to be very gentle and hold back a bit but in the past year she seems more comfortable. I am going to try to see if we can a few other positions and spice it up again.

Aine - I would love to take back control! She is not a big fan of this as she likes/has to be in control of nearly everything. I may just try it though and see what happens. I love taking risks  What is the worst that can happen?

Girl_power -
Have you ever tried joining her when she showers? Once or twice

Does she refuse when you initiate? We sort of have a groove where she always initiates. She knows I am ready anytime/anywhere. I would have sex 2X a day if she wanted to. So we let her control the tempo. A few times when I am really horny and want to be with her and not just take care of myself, I will initiate and she is usually open.

How does she like you to initiate? We just straight out ask each other for "closet time"

She seems to like to give more than receive, so does she like a dominant man to tell her what to do? This is an interesting question as I don't think it is as simple as it seems on the surface. She does not like dominant men in general. She always likes the nice guy. With the OCD, she feels she needs to be in control of everything inside and outside the bedroom. That said, I always wonder if she does not even know what turns her on and maybe if I took more control she would like it. She likes books like Twilight, and other books where the guys is a bit obsessive, brooding, and controlling. She also like books where the girl is the bad ass protagonist. 

Has she ever liked to receive oral sex? She used to let me give her oral and she climaxed maybe 1 out of 20 times. It would take 20+ minutes. Most of the time she would get close but not over the edge and it would just really, really frustrate her. I think that is why she does not like it. She would prefer to not even get close to climax and avoid the frustration. If she does get really horny during sex, she will spend another 30 mins or so in the close with her toys.

What other positions were successful in the past? None really. Her on top is fun but she has body image issues and she is sensitive to being vertical vs laying down. Most other positions like Doggy, sideways, etc have typically been too painful for her. 

I am going to start to look for a counselor once things settle down with COVID. I hope to have some deep conversations in the meantime.

Thanks again for the feedback - keep it coming!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Good morning ladies!

I apologize in advance for the long update here, it is story time.

Last night my wife and I had a typical argument and I thought I would share how it went down to shed light on the dynamics in our relationship. As I mentioned before, my wife has mild OCD and likes to be in control. She likes everyone around her (mainly the kids and I) to live their lives around a set of rules. I could probably fill up a book with them. By contrast, I live my life around broad principles and values and as long as the behaviors of myself and the people around me are generally moving me in that direction, life is good.

That brings us to last night. My wife’s parents have been taking the kids every Friday night lately so we get some time for us. This time, I take the initiative and ask her if we want to have some “play time.” She graciously says she would rather wait until Saturday but she could give my a handy. I accept 😊. We make our way to the pleasure room (closet) and my wife looks for the lube and it is not in its usual place. I had left it in the toilet room from the last time I used it. Rule #568,898: Jason shall not masturbate while on the toilet – only in the shower (more on why later). As is typical with most of the rules, I take responsibility if I break them (after much huffing and consternation). It really is my bad if I originally agree to them and break them. It does have the appearance of sneakiness – which my wife detests. I have also had a history of not being totally honest with every detail (I could write another update on that). I have been trying over the last several months to be a completely open book, even with the little stuff and if it makes us uncomfortable in the moment. I have been pretty successful in that effort. I have been pushing back on the “rules” that seem unreasonable in my judgement. Back to rule #568,898 (being facetious here 😉); the other day I had already showered and did not take that opportunity to relieve myself. So I knowingly decide to break the rule, and, being the do-what-I-want kind of guy, I did my thing in the bathroom. Flash forward to last night, my wife blows up and throws a heavy guilt trip. I proceed to blow up, we return to our corners and sulk. Strangely enough, we make up fairly quickly and she offers to give me a hand. Only after some forced apologies before and after the deed.

The good news is that I stood my ground and decided this rule was unreasonable. The trouble with the rules is that many of them I struggle with the logic. That means it is hard for me to remember them if they don’t come naturally or are counter-intuitive. I will admit that I am quite the math geek so logical rules come easy to me and they stick in my head. These are different. Granted, I chose to originally accept this rule and chose to break it. Her reasoning is actually a bit logical in this case – she does not want me to make a mess with my “stuff” and there has been an instance or two where some dripped on the floor and I missed it during clean up. I stood my ground on this one last night. I suggested that I could do my business in another bathroom and take over responsibility for cleaning the bathroom on a regular basis. Eventually we agreed that if I can keep it spotless then I can do my thing in our bathroom but if she ever found evidence, I am relegated back to the shower.

I know in the big game of life, this is definitely part of the small stuff. But this is just one example of many that play a part in our relationship regarding rules and boundaries my wife sets. We are so different in this respect. I have two principles that drive every decision I make: 

Does it increase intimacy or is it fun for my wife and I, or
Is it something that is going to make us and our kids proud on our death bed
Beyond that, I can’t think of one "rule" I have made for my wife. On the other hand, I have to wrap my head into a pretzel through a 6-dimensional chess game when I am going about my daily tasks to think if I am doing something that my wife would not approve.

Yes, I need to go to individual counseling, I know 😊

Thanks for listening.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Yea I would not be happy if I found my partners ejaculation anywhere.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

On the flip side. You agreed to something and then broke the your agreement.
it is good that you now are expressing your feelings and getting what you perceive you need. But not keeping your word no matter how trivial you think the matter is can be damaging. 

Stop lying to her. If you disagree with something then disagree. Don't lie.

Do you lie to her often? Does she catch you in these 'white' lies often. This would build resentment and mistrust for me.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> Do you lie to her often? Does she catch you in these 'white' lies often. This would build resentment and mistrust for me.


I am as honest a person you can be. That said, there are two situations I lied to her. I cheated on her a couple months after we started dating (about 27 years ago). To this day, that is still the one regret I have and I wish every day I could take that back. I told her the next day and I have been trying to earn her trust back every day since. The other time is when her OCD was bad and she wanted me to spend several hours checking the house. At the time, I thought I was showing her love by enabling her. I was wrong and we are better now. However, there were several times when I would just pretend I was checking the house. That stuff is behind us now.

I think the issue is more about commitments I make. In the past, I would agree with most of her requests she made with regards to changes in my behavior. They were mostly around keeping the house clean and safe. Most of them I know we're unreasonable but I agreed. I have been working on renegotiating most of those over time. While I don't consider renegotiating prior agreements a lie, I can see her feeling resentment from the changes. 

Thanks again for the feedback. I do think trust is an underlying issue and I will be sure to keep that in the front of my thoughts.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

hubby said:


> I think the issue is more about commitments I make. In the past, I would agree with most of her requests she made with regards to changes in my behavior. They were mostly around keeping the house clean and safe. Most of them I know we're unreasonable but I agreed.* I have been working on renegotiating most of those over time. While I don't consider renegotiating prior agreements a lie, I can see her feeling resentment from the changes.*
> 
> Thanks again for the feedback. I do think trust is an underlying issue and I will be sure to keep that in the front of my thoughts.


Renegotiating happens prior to breaking agreements. You used lube in the bathroom BEFORE talking with her about appropriate new boundaries. That is still you breaking your word. The resentment for me would come from the lying not the renegotiations.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> Renegotiating happens prior to breaking agreements. You used lube in the bathroom BEFORE talking with her about appropriate new boundaries. That is still you breaking your word. The resentment for me would come from the lying not the renegotiations.


Agreed


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

This is kind of off topic, but given trust is associated with our level intimacy, what would you ladies expect in cases where your man forgets some of the little things. For example, my wife is very particular when it comes to cleanliness. Here are a few examples:

shoes must come off upon entry, we need to step on the designated "dirty" tiles and avoid the "clean" ones unti we wash our feet
no using hands to get ice, must use a cup
wash hands for no less than 20 seconds

There are many, many other preferences like these just in the cleanliness department. Sometimes I forget a rule or two throughout the day. In the spirit of 100% honesty, do I do a mental inventory at the end of the day and let her know the mistakes I made?


I actually don't mind some of these rules but some of them I struggle to make a habit.

At the end of the day, I just want us to be as close as possible and I find sometimes the "rules" create tension, resentment and distance on both sides. It is difficult to strike a balance.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It all sounds more than constraining and I would not be able to live like that. For real. Express train to out of the marriage.

You asked the females their thoughts.

It's impossible to answer because your wife has you in a CAGE of rules and I can't even fathom doing that to another person.

Even the way you asked the question...I think your mental health has broken down living in this kind of environment.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Livvie said:


> It is impossible to answer because your wife has you in a CAGE of rules and I can't even fathom doing that to another person.


Thanks for the response Livvie. I do think things have improved dramatically from the worst and I am 100% confident we will find a solution to our problems and things will get better each day. I mainly want to set some goals to stay focused on to continue improvement. I know setting boundaries, expectations and complete honesty are likely the primary objectives. 

It also helps to get different perspectives here. My mental health definitely went through the ringer for several years and it is hard to rationalize what is reasonable anymore.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> shoes must come off upon entry, we need to step on the designated "dirty" tiles and avoid the "clean" ones unti we wash our feet
> 
> At the end of the day, I just want us to be as close as possible and I find sometimes the "rules" create tension, resentment and distance on both sides. It is difficult to strike a balance.


Oh my! I have so many thoughts swimming around. 
I can not say enough how much I LOVE this community. WOW
I have seen myself, and my husband, throughout this thread.

I can be... high demanding. I know I can. Its something I REALLY try to balance. I was sexually abused as a child, physically and those always come with pure neglect. I have been and can me a hot mess. I def. have OCD at some level, and have dealt with anxiety and depression my whole life! 

With that said, I had laugh a bit when I read "shoes must come off..." I have these "rules" but mines a little lighter.
I have a basket by the back door, I just traded it, per request, to a shoe shelf... no biggie, done. But I want people to put shoes the basket, or now on the shelf. Walk where you want, but I don't want to trip over shoes or look at 10 pairs onto floor. In my opinion, thats balance. But thats just my opinion  

You opening paragraph to the original post give me hope!! I couldn't imagine having sex every week! Hell, I would take twice a month.

This isn't about me, so I am not going to start adding about me, I would get too winded. But all I can say is, love her through her struggles (which it is obvious you do) but also you have rights, feeling and needs. Maybe "strike a new bargain". You get a few days a month that you choose where, how, etc. If the closet is needed, maybe a new position. There are many different positions. I have had uterine issues my whole marriage, which has given us some.. well, issues. But I was always willing to try this or that. Now 5 pregnancies later, I also have a dropped uterus. Thats not fun and makes for discomfort if we aren't careful. If I am really aroused, pleasure will overcome displeasure pretty fast. Maybe find a foreplay that excites her and suggest a new position.

Im new here, I dont know your history, This advice may not apply! I just wanted so share something thats worked for me


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mary L said:


> Im new here, I dont know your history, This advice may not apply! I just wanted so share something thats worked for me


Hi Mary! I'd love to hear more about your marriage and how you find a way to strike a balance with your husband. It is impossible for me to share my wife's perspective and I am most certainly biased in how I present our relationship. My wife probably thinks I am a horny slob and I see her as a controlling prude at times. The reality exists somewhere in the middle.

My wife was diagnosed with OCD soon after married, but I knew about a year after we started dating. She saw a therapist for a year and was on medication that turned her into a zombie. She quit the meds and we worked through it together and she successful manages the intruding thoughts but I know she still struggles internally. Our marriage was sexless for about 10 years. We had great sex the first year. It came to almost an immediate stop when the OCD flared up. We did not have sex again until about 2 years after we married, she knew I was ready for divorce at that point. We are a million times better now but still have a lot of work to do.

My gut is there are a few main problems today:

She needs to be in control of most everything. This gets in the way of her being able to let go and enjoy sex.
I am a more happy go lucky and passive person. My gut is she subconsciously wants me to be more assertive in bed, despite what she says to the contrary. Given our respective personalities, I struggle to push the boundaries with sex.
I think there are still trust issues she has with me.
There may be another issue that puts some distance between us. My wife is much more strict with the kids. It takes a lot to annoy me and even then, my response to the kids tends to be pretty restrained. My wife has much less patience most of the time will end up yelling at the kids. She probably yells at them a couple times a day. I have raised my voice with my 4 boys less than 10 times in my life. She feels guilty because she becomes the bad guy to the kids and she want me to step up my game. I feel that if I get to her level we will both be yelling at the kids - crushing their soul. The rational thing would seem to be that I become the disciplinarian and she lets me take over but I don't always pick up when she is about to lose patience and explode. I think this dynamic hampers the sex and intimacy levels.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

hubby said:


> My gut is there are a few main problems today:
> 
> She needs to be in control of most everything. This gets in the way of her being able to let go and enjoy sex.
> I am a more happy go lucky and passive person. My gut is she subconsciously wants me to be more assertive in bed, despite what she says to the contrary. Given our respective personalities, I struggle to push the boundaries with sex.
> I think there are still trust issues she has with me.


This is what survivors of abuse or trauma want... control. They lost it as part of the trauma and wish to retain every possible defense to guard against vulnerability. I’m just like you... laid back... not wrapped up having my way. But here’s the construct I find myself in...

Due to my wife’s family-of-origin issues and string of various traumas, her comfort zone is the size of a baseball where mine is the size of one of those huge workout (Swiss) balls you see at the gym. Most of the things I want/need/desire/deal with reside outside her baseball (road biking, germs, sex talk) so I am confined to the baseball. While at the same time, she enjoys that I freely and lovingly operate outside the baseball but inside the Swiss Ball. If she can’t or doesn’t know how to do something, she just has to ask; regardless of how dirty, time consuming, technical. She’s spoiled by the fact that I’ll just figure it out and make it happen with her doing very little. Change the brakes and rotors... sure. Replumb, expand and install a new shower enclosure sure. Install new floors... sure. Always know where I’m going.. yep. Does it matter if I have ever done anything like that before... no... I have to teach myself. You get the idea. Now I can in NO WAY drop anything complicated on her and just tell her to figure out it. Due to such low self-esteem, the cost of embarrassment or failure is soooo great she’d rather pawn it off or drop it. Most “us” projects end up being “me” projects. She shows up for the shopping and at the most any painting. Other than that she tells me “have fun.” If she wanted a new light fixture I said hmm “have fun installing it” it would sit in the box in the garage indefinitely. She would not choose to teach herself how to do it. And she justifies this because “I like to do these things” so it’s really not an imposition or “that’s a guy thing.”

Now as for me, I can’t even ask for the basics like seduce me, wear something flattering, show some confidence, embrace your sexiness, take constructive criticism, love me how I need to be loved or even run to Home Depot and get me _insert tool/part here_. She is scared of looking like a fool so she puts up a wall. 

Taking it every further, fighting/conflict means divorce which is what she grew up so she’s put in the minimum (within the baseball) to avoid the fight and maintain the high ground in a fight. Now when she does have to fight, her communication style is “win at all costs” in order to preserve the baseball.

My point is that, like you, your wife’s comfort zone is so small and she relies on you to do everything outside of hers. It’s sucks because you will never, ever get what you need because that means leaving the baseball. Our MC told me it is a form of emotional abuse in that they will use shame or other defense mechanisms to invalidate your needs to prevent operating outside said baseball. This is part and parcel of an avoidant attachment style or avoidance personality disorder which I’m sure my wife has. Will my wife make love to me... nope... but she can damn sure get off in about 2 minutes and move on to something else less vulnerable. She can minimize the vulnerability while gaining the ability to say “we have a great sex life.” She says its very emotional and not about getting off but her body language says otherwise.

Sorry to say but without any buy-in from your wife you are slowly drifting apart. I know we are. And it’s her choice because instead of her growing her comfort zone you choose to operate less and less in hers in order to preserve the “ability to breathe” in life. My wife has big dreams for retirement, big house, vacation home, travel, lots of grandkids. Guess what... who’s doing the work and providing the financial capital to make this happen.... you guessed it. She says we need to start planning. I plan to flat our tell I have no interest in planning the future as we’re living it now. Only difference will be more gray hair, wrinkles, more money, no grandkids to focus on and still the same emotional distancing.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

@hubby She was your first... what was her past? You mention sexual abuse as a teenager. What was the extent and how did she deal with it? Are you confident she's been an open book about her past, or is that something she's kept private? Is it possible her narrative was false and that she saw you as a chance to escape from a lifestyle she didn't like? What type of therapy has she had so far?

Lots of questions, I know. But it is so bizarre to think things from a very distant past can really wreck the present. But they assuredly can.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

aaarghdub said:


> This is what survivors of abuse or trauma want... control. They lost it as part of the trauma and wish to retain every possible defense to guard against vulnerability. I’m just like you... laid back... not wrapped up having my way. But here’s the construct I find myself in...
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks for the background. There are a lot of similarities to our stories. I would say my comfort zone is pretty much limitless and my curiosity makes me crave new adventures and learn new things. My wife is odd in this respect. She also is curious, loves to travel and try new things. At the same time, she needs to be in control of her surroundings. She needs to plan everything out to the last detail and gets uncomfortable if we deviate from the plan to much. She detests surprises. I love a good surprised. It is odd.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Casual Observer said:


> @hubby She was your first... what was her past?


She was my first. I was raised Catholic and went to youth groups thru my first year of College. In retrospect, I think that did our marriage a disservice.

She had three partners before me.



Casual Observer said:


> @hubby You mention sexual abuse as a teenager. What was the extent and how did she deal with it?


We only talked about it a few times and she never went into detail. I am not sure the age and it was a single occurrence. I think I am the only person she talked to about it.



Casual Observer said:


> @hubby Are you confident she's been an open book about her past, or is that something she's kept private?


She is a very honest person and I have no reason to think she is hiding anything from me. We went to the same high school and we had mutual friends. She always seemed like the good girl. Her parents were pretty strict. Not a big partier. She was valedictorian of her high school and top of her college graduating class. 



Casual Observer said:


> @hubby Is it possible her narrative was false and that she saw you as a chance to escape from a lifestyle she didn't like?


Anything is possible, but not likely. My best friend knew her pretty well in high school and he was my best man at the wedding. He never raised any red flags.



Casual Observer said:


> @hubby What type of therapy has she had so far?


She had about 6 months IC for her OCD after we got married. We had a few MC sessions together before it got too intense for her.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> Hi Mary! I'd love to hear more about your marriage and how you find a way to strike a balance with your husband. It is impossible for me to share my wife's perspective and I am most certainly biased in how I present our relationship. My wife probably thinks I am a horny slob and I see her as a controlling prude at times. The reality exists somewhere in the middle.
> 
> My wife was diagnosed with OCD soon after married, but I knew about a year after we started dating. She saw a therapist for a year and was on medication that turned her into a zombie. She quit the meds and we worked through it together and she successful manages the intruding thoughts but I know she still struggles internally. Our marriage was sexless for about 10 years. We had great sex the first year. It came to almost an immediate stop when the OCD flared up. We did not have sex again until about 2 years after we married, she knew I was ready for divorce at that point. We are a million times better now but still have a lot of work to do.
> 
> ...


Sorry, my husband is home this weekend, and he has been working most Saturdays. I am not going to be on here much this weekend since he's home. 
For now, I need this forum to be a me thing. I will one day tell him, but I need this and I dont want share it with him right now.

I am not sure where to start responding to this thread. wow. So many thoughts.
I will get back to this tomorrow


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> Hi Mary! I'd love to hear more about your marriage and how you find a way to strike a balance with your husband. It is impossible for me to share my wife's perspective and I am most certainly biased in how I present our relationship. My wife probably thinks I am a horny slob and I see her as a controlling prude at times. The reality exists somewhere in the middle.
> 
> My wife was diagnosed with OCD soon after married, but I knew about a year after we started dating. She saw a therapist for a year and was on medication that turned her into a zombie. She quit the meds and we worked through it together and she successful manages the intruding thoughts but I know she still struggles internally. Our marriage was sexless for about 10 years. We had great sex the first year. It came to almost an immediate stop when the OCD flared up. We did not have sex again until about 2 years after we married, she knew I was ready for divorce at that point. We are a million times better now but still have a lot of work to do.
> 
> ...


I have thought a lot about this tread, because it hit home in many ways. 
I was sexually abused by my dad and brother. Both parents were emotionally and physically abusive. Food was optional for my sister and myself. It wasn't a good life and I know it created a hole lot of issues within me!! One thing I am is, stubborn. I guess I have used that to MY benefit, when it comes to self awareness and healing.

I began to have panic attacks when our oldest was a year old. Something about having a child really triggered things. I was scared to death all the time. I think deep down I was so scared to make the same mistakes as my parents, yet I knew I could never be that person. 
From the moment I found out I was pregnant, I read about everything I could get my hands on. I wanted to be a great mom. My moms only voice was yelling. She would strike first then ask questions. I knew these things were wrong, but what was right? I had no idea. But I was willing to learn.

I don't know you or your wife, and your dynamics... but for me when hubby won't engage with the kids, it leave me with all the heavy. And too much heavy, I am not strong enough to carry. I would read and try to help him understand, but he just wouldn't engage and when he did, he was hotheaded. More because he was frustrated at me for making him do something.

For example. Our teen/adult son has one job around the house. Thats MY rule. My husband agrees he's should have responsibility here, that its good for him, but he would never give him some. Ever! Fine, whatever. So I give him a job. Now, its up to me to make sure it gets done. Make him when he doesn't want to do it. Its exhausting! It would be easier to just fo the job myself. But its not about the job, its about teaching him responsibility. I want my husband to also see this reality. Add rude back talk from our son, he can be down right nasty! And sometimes I lose it a bit. I use to yell, I really dont anymore. It takes a lot to push me to the point I raise my voice. I'm so tired of hearing that I am everyones problem! We have some pretty out of control people in this family. I'm either bat **** crazy (which I am not taking that off the table yet) or my husband has really taught our kids some bad behaviors. 

I get that you dont want crush souls. Kids go through lot. They are their own worst enemies. They dont need the people that love them the most to be on their backs for each and every mistake, yelling is the quickest way to make someone feel like crap about themselves! Again, I dont know you and I may be barking up the wrong tree here. But you dont have to yell to stand beside your wife. I would have loved if my husband would have just taken a stand with the kids. "You mom has asked several times for you to hang up your coat and clean the mess you made in the kitchen. I value your moms time, and so should you. Had you just forgotten and when reminded kindly accepted the reminder, nothing more would have been done. But since you chose to get mouthy, make excuses and basically waste my wife's time, you can make that time up by cleaning ALL the kitchen after dinner tonight." Or something like that, anything!! Its the silence that has bothered me. The not doing. Then I am left with a raging child. Its another day in our home of dissention and if I snap I am the bad guy. 
We are a team. Its not about me, its about raising our kids the best way for them!

I think my husband is a slob, and I would probably not care as much if he also had the horny part! haha, but true! I start to notice all those little things and they bug the crap out of me, when its all I have to focus on! I am frustrated most days. Kids ignoring me, husband ignoring me, more cat poop to clean! Another dinner to make! And at the end of the day, I get a "good night babe" with a kiss, and tomorrow is on repeat. It was and is exhausting. We only have one child at home right now, there is no excuse for a lack of intimacy. I know when I would get triturated, yell, etc it was a big sexual downer. But so is a husband who lives in the home and is too passive leaving the hard work to me. (that is NOT a poke at you. I don't know you, I am simply explaining my side)

I know I like to be in control. I am most likely not as great at balancing as I think I am. I am huge believer of self motivation and I have worked on me since I found out I was pregnant with our 1st child. Before that really, but that is when it really kicked in. 
Its been loooooong road and I am far from where I need to be. 

As for me, and I have read on this a bit... most women like me who want control, like to be controlled in the bedroom. I dont want tell you to do anything that would freak your wife out. 
There was one night, I have no freaking clue who my husband was channelling... but it was hot and amazing. He just took control. Moved me around as he wanted me. Just did thinks that wasn't our normal. he seemed to be into me like he had never been before. I told him afterwards how hot and amazing it was, He seemed so happy that I was so happy. But never did anything like that again. I personally want control. I even talked to him after that, about how I want him to have control in the bedroom. I sat him down, told him how amazing that was. I told him that I know I can be a bit of a control freak, but when it comes to the bedroom, its his room. I will comply with anything he wants. And I meant it, but ....nothing. 

We don't have balance. Sadly. I have my side of the story and he has his. His favorite phrases "dear, we are at an impasse" I hate that damn phrase! 

If you ask my husband I am extremely OCD, I am a neat freak and I over react. 
If you ask me, I struggle with those things but because he is so far on the other side, I look over the top. 

This may be too much on here... and I would never be able to say this to someone I know... but once he was frustrated and said I make him feel bad when I try to be in control. Usually I will come up with situations where I wanted him to take lead and he just sat there, But instead said "well, then spank me!" He laughed and said "oh ya!" but... again, nothing. 
I don't know how many talks or hints I can toss out there. 

So ya, I am a lot like your wife, but yet I am not.
I want him to explore. 

One of the sexiest things is when he would engage with me as a father figure to his kids. No yelling heeded. Just be firm and let them know who is boss. Honestly, its hard for me to respect him when he cant parent his own kids. Lives me to it, then gripes because I yell or Im exhausted. And they way these kids have talked to me and treated me? Shameful! Any parent/person would yell!

I have so may thoughts on this, because a lot of what you and @aaarghdub said resonated deep with me. I seem to be an add mix of things, I have issues, I tend to like things "the right way" when it comes to organized and clean. But I feel I have also grown enough to know when to apply balance. Im sure if I saw myself though my husbands eyes, I would see things differently.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

aaarghdub said:


> This is what survivors of abuse or trauma want... control. They lost it as part of the trauma and wish to retain every possible defense to guard against vulnerability. I’m just like you... laid back... not wrapped up having my way. But here’s the construct I find myself in...
> 
> Due to my wife’s family-of-origin issues and string of various traumas, her comfort zone is the size of a baseball where mine is the size of one of those huge workout (Swiss) balls you see at the gym. Most of the things I want/need/desire/deal with reside outside her baseball (road biking, germs, sex talk) so I am confined to the baseball. While at the same time, she enjoys that I freely and lovingly operate outside the baseball but inside the Swiss Ball. If she can’t or doesn’t know how to do something, she just has to ask; regardless of how dirty, time consuming, technical. She’s spoiled by the fact that I’ll just figure it out and make it happen with her doing very little. Change the brakes and rotors... sure. Replumb, expand and install a new shower enclosure sure. Install new floors... sure. Always know where I’m going.. yep. Does it matter if I have ever done anything like that before... no... I have to teach myself. You get the idea. Now I can in NO WAY drop anything complicated on her and just tell her to figure out it. Due to such low self-esteem, the cost of embarrassment or failure is soooo great she’d rather pawn it off or drop it. Most “us” projects end up being “me” projects. She shows up for the shopping and at the most any painting. Other than that she tells me “have fun.” If she wanted a new light fixture I said hmm “have fun installing it” it would sit in the box in the garage indefinitely. She would not choose to teach herself how to do it. And she justifies this because “I like to do these things” so it’s really not an imposition or “that’s a guy thing.”
> 
> ...


I have re-read your comment a few times. I feel like this is me and my husband, but with differences. 

I was raised in an abusive home, which gave me some major issues with confidence and the need to control. Over the years I have overcome many of these areas, but as always, there is lingering effects that still need weeded out.

I use to live in that baseball, but as I expand to the Swiss ball, (not there yet!!) I can see how much my hubby lives within the baseball. 
Just in a different way. 

I'm pretty back and white. You usually know where you stand with me. I am kind about it, but life too short for games. 

I just love the analogy of the baseball and yoga ball! I think it describes us so well. You have also given me some new thought about my relationship. 
My husbands mom yelled a lot and they got a divorce too. I think his dad sat pretty silentt though it all, until he blew. I know a lot of my husbands issues are learned behavior, from his dad. 
Early on in our marriage I was happy with the low sex drive he had, but it set a precedence. He is a creature of habit. 
Also,I think thats why he doesn't engage with much of anything. To him if there is yelling or upset, you just ignore things until everyones happy again. Which is probable why he doesn't understand when I am still upset! lol I didn't move on, like scripted.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mary L said:


> I have thought a lot about this tread, because it hit home in many ways.
> I was sexually abused by my dad and brother. Both parents were emotionally and physically abusive. Food was optional for my sister and myself. It wasn't a good life and I know it created a hole lot of issues within me!! One thing I am is, stubborn. I guess I have used that to MY benefit, when it comes to self awareness and healing.
> 
> I began to have panic attacks when our oldest was a year old. Something about having a child really triggered things. I was scared to death all the time. I think deep down I was so scared to make the same mistakes as my parents, yet I knew I could never be that person.
> ...


Wow, thank you for the perspective. First, you should be VERY proud for breaking the cycle of abuse and you have a great head on your shoulders. It takes an extremely strong person to be where you are today. 

I took away three main things from what you shared:

I need to spend a lot of time figuring out how to be more supportive of my wife with a balance of fair discipline with my kids. She really does take on 95% of that responsibility and I am sure it is exhausting. I specifically started spending less time at work to focus more energy on my family. I need to follow through. I will probably need help figuring that out. 
You did an amazing job healing from your past. I am still not sure if my wife's past weighs on her, but she is strong too. Maybe they is not the main contributing factor to our unadventurous sex life and her seemingly low libido. It is likely both of us contributing equally. 
There is very likely sexual desire that can be unlocked with my wife. I do feel that I need to take more chances. I see myself as such a risk taker but I struggle to make it happen when the opportunity is there. In my mind I only see her as someone who needs to be in control, was abused once as a child, and has a low drive. Me taking control in the bedroom just does not compute. These things are deep in the subconscious though. Maybe you have some suggestions 😂. 
On the last point, I know she likes reading about the controlling, obsessive lover. She liked twilight, fifty shades (based on Twilight fanfic), and other similar story lines. I had brought up how I would find role play like that very sexy but her response is that she only finds it sexy in her mind, not in real life. Strange. 

As for you and your hubby, you seem to be trying all the right things. Have you seen a marriage counselor? Have you tried writing down specific goals and tracking written progress? Something like: 


Date night once a week
Week one - hug/cuddle for 10 minutes without interruption. 
Week two - make out twice for more than a minute. 
Week three - you both get to ask for some form of foreplay. You can even agree with what is on/off the table in advance. 
Etc
If anyone is not able to achieve the goal, the other partner gets a "favor" of their choosing 😂. 

The point is you both agree to something comfortable and you do your best to stick to it. You monitor progress and revisit the goals once a week. As I am writing this, I may try to do this with my wife.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

If it's intimacy you want, maybe start out on the couch while watching a movie? No sex, do everything but that...sorry to sound perverted, it's not my intent, but maybe making out, boob play, oral sex on both parts..toys, dressing up a little, role play?...it might work.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

GC1234 said:


> If it's intimacy you want, maybe start out on the couch while watching a movie? No sex, do everything but that...sorry to sound perverted, it's not my intent, but maybe making out, boob play, oral sex on both parts..toys, dressing up a little, role play?...it might work.


Been there, done that. Thats how we got into watching tv... ONLY... each night! lol


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

LOL! Maybe something to raise the libido then...


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> Wow, thank you for the perspective. First, you should be VERY proud for breaking the cycle of abuse and you have a great head on your shoulders. It takes an extremely strong person to be where you are today.
> 
> I took away three main things from what you shared:
> 
> ...


Well, thank you... but I feel I am still so far away from who I want to be!! I'm a mess in many ways! I know the issues I have with my husband, but I also am very aware of my own personal issues!! And Im sure there are things I dont see  

I think we all walk away from abuse differently than the next person. It can be the same abuse, even in the same home. Its hard to find a key to unlock something when the hurt person has such unique key. Keep trying. This is an area I wish my husband would be better at. Its not that he isn't understanding, but I wish he "knew" me better. Studied me. Desired me in a deep way. Again, maybe I am TOO needy in this area?

I can only suggest my own, desires, I don't know if that would work for your wife. Or scare her. I would say if she's reading and watching things about a lovers control, she's want that. She just may not know it yet, or too scared or embarrassed to try. 
Maybe let her know that if you guys try something, and she doesn't like it for any reason, its off the table unless she brings it up. I was shocked how fast I changed in that area. I went from "only missionary is fine" (not that he tried anything else) to... not that. So my desires changed, my need for passion changed, my wanting to connect at a deeper level changed.. and he stayed the same. 

I know my husband has said almost the same thing "Me taking control in the bedroom just does not compute." I think he was concerned I would grade him or something! lol Which I have never done! BUT to be fair, I have snapped when he doesn't clean up after himself, and he felt he did. (an example of a life together, I need this or that does better and he feels he did a great job, I see it as sloppy and needs more attention, then he feels he fails) I am not a mean person. I will talk with him, and let him know what I feel is needed and why, I can be demanding. I know I can be, I also know where it stems from and Im trying to fix it. But he also has issues, but on the flip side. He doesn't see messes and it drives me crazy! He needs to understand I'm not a maid, but am willing to wear the outfit  But this is what he is saying to me and even the kids when he leaves messes for me. That I'm a glorified maid. 

I think I have just changed, and he's still where he is and always has been. The last decade I have changed and my desire has risen, and his desires has decreased. 

I like your goal setting, and I am going to try it. Maybe when I suggested twice a week to spend intimate time together, and I explained what I thought that was, asking for his input as well... maybe he literally needs a play list. He really does have ADD tendencies! I think I will write out what to do. It will feel like a check list for me, a chore... but if it helps my husband to figure out who to be, what I need and can see Im not going to grade him? Maybe it will help?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

This may or may not help but here goes.

I just got the book Passionate Marriage, recommended by many here on TAM.

And very openly ordered from Amazon, showed DW, told her you know I'm always studying the human condition, there may be some tidbits I can add to my (albeit already well stocked tool belt with starting and executing sexy time with good times had by all every time) as a disclaimer. 

And she knows, we're of the 5 to 7 times a week intimate encounters anyway. So we're starting from great, but I know there's always room to get better and variety. 

Back to your post. As soon as I started to read, dog ear a few sections I noticed she's reading it too.

And over the last week things have been of more deeper connections and positions suggested by her, so this is a good thing.

The book may be a help to your situation, or not, but it's an idea.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

GC1234 said:


> LOL! Maybe something to raise the libido then...


I defuse oils, the ones that is suppose to arouse. He takes supplements thats suppose to increases his drive. Knowing this man, I think he just needs to work the program and get things flowing, literally.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> This may or may not help but here goes.
> 
> I just got the book Passionate Marriage, recommended by many here on TAM.
> 
> ...


I will look into this book. I have read a couple, couple sex books. So far he has just shown interest. But he says he doesn't time to read anything. Words I have heard our entire marriage "I dont have time to...." fill in the blank.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

"As for you and your hubby, you seem to be trying all the right things. Have you seen a marriage counselor? Have you tried writing down specific goals and tracking written progress? Something like: 


Date night once a week
Week one - hug/cuddle for 10 minutes without interruption. 
Week two - make out twice for more than a minute. 
Week three - you both get to ask for some form of foreplay. You can even agree with what is on/off the table in advance. 
Etc
If anyone is not able to achieve the goal, the other partner gets a "favor" of their choosing 😂."

I'm a list person. I like schedules and things laid out. I believe that because of this, when applied to our personal and sex life, it feels so sterile. Although I have tried, but not this deeply.
I know I already addressed this, but I keep coming back to it. 

We have not been to a counselor, yet. He has just drug his feet. 

I do like this list/journaling idea for some reason though. Its why I keep coming back to it, Maybe its just sheer hope? only time will tell. 
My husband is a very, stuck in what he has been taught. No matter what is. If her learns something a certain way, its the way it is. Once he has a certain phone he has learned to use, he won't switch. Once he learns to do anything a certain way, its just he way it will be done forever. 
He says he likes change and in some ways he does. But in ways involving HIM to walk in the change, he struggles. Bad! Melts and nothing changes.
Whereas me, I hate change. Period. I know I do. I will say I do. I understand I do, But life has changes. Its what it is, roll with it or be miserable.

You are probably reading my word vomiting and wondering...huh?? but what I am saying is, I have tried the to-do list, but maybe it was too much change at once. 
We never, ever go on dates. I have made plans over the years, just to have them cancelled because a job didn't get done and needs to be done by Monday, or whatever the reason. We didn't have a honeymoon, we don't go on trips for anniversaries. I have over the years wanted this to change. 

I like how you built on the weeks. I think I just jumped to "lets do this" mode. Maybe slowing it down is better for him. A little here and there till he gets use to "hey we do this connection thing once a week" now we can add this, next week that... 
I like it!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mary L said:


> "As for you and your hubby, you seem to be trying all the right things. Have you seen a marriage counselor? Have you tried writing down specific goals and tracking written progress? Something like:
> 
> 
> Date night once a week
> ...


Guys tend to think in lists/goals as well so he may be open to that approach. The idea is that you both agree on your mutual goals, commit to them and, most importantly, review progress frequently. The review can be fun and you can give each other "prizes" for reaching goals. 

You mention you don't have dates, I would definitely start there. It can be anything fun. It does not need to lead to sex. The idea is you have a time set to be partners. Just the anticipation builds intimacy.

I am thinking it is time for our next sex talk. What approach do you ladies find works best? I know it is best to not surprise your partner, set a time outside of the bedroom and start of slow. I was thinking of talking about what our sexual interests are (you would think we would both know this by now). Maybe make a list of what is on and off the table? I am down for anything, as long as it does not cause permanent damage . We used to be moderately adventurous we have settled into a predictable pattern.

Ideas?


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> Guys tend to think in lists/goals as well so he may be open to that approach. The idea is that you both agree on your mutual goals, commit to them and, most importantly, review progress frequently. The review can be fun and you can give each other "prizes" for reaching goals.
> 
> You mention you don't have dates, I would definitely start there. It can be anything fun. It does not need to lead to sex. The idea is you have a time set to be partners. Just the anticipation builds intimacy.
> 
> ...


He would like the prizes idea. Haha. But more like... ammo! But whatever works  
I’m a romantic. Meaning, I’m a cheap date. 
If he took me to a walking trail and held my hand while taking about anything other than work, that’s good for me. I don’t even need sex!! Well... I wouldn’t fight him off, but I’m good with quality time!

As far as suggestions. What about just exploring senses? I’ve thought about this for my husband. He has a hard time connecting different senses. Sometimes it has caused issues. He not aware of how maybe “I” feel what he’s doing. If I react positive or negative, he just doesn’t seem to know. And given where we are. I tread carefully at saying things. Pick and choose my battles. 
but I have thought about suggesting an evening, no sex required, It’s all about him... I would blind fold him and feed him foods. Different textures and temps. Rub different Items with temperatures and textures over his skin. Maybe as I’m doing other things like oral (if he wants). 
He needs something to rewire that brain of his. I read somewhere that this is a good thing to do for people who struggle with knowing how to listen to their partners body language. Which for my husband, he’s legally deaf!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

You mentioned senses and my mind jumped to "medications" that heighten senses. Some of these are legal, some are not, depending on the state/country you live in. I always wonder how valuable some of these might be in monogamous relationships, even when tried once together. Some things increase your emotional connection, empathy, open your mind to new ideas and rewire your brain to interpret senses differently. It is not for everyone but just putting it all on the table.

For my wife and I, it is hard to get adventurous these days. It is summer time and our 4 boys are around the house constantly. We get a break every Friday and Saturday. Maybe I will suggest we make special plans for something different. Wifey hates surprises but does like anticipation.

One other question for the ladies, do you find that you want in real life the same things you fantasize about in what you read/watch?


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> You mentioned senses and my mind jumped to "medications" that heighten senses. Some of these are legal, some are not, depending on the state/country you live in. I always wonder how valuable some of these might be in monogamous relationships, even when tried once together. Some things increase your emotional connection, empathy, open your mind to new ideas and rewire your brain to interpret senses differently. It is not for everyone but just putting it all on the table.
> 
> For my wife and I, it is hard to get adventurous these days. It is summer time and our 4 boys are around the house constantly. We get a break every Friday and Saturday. Maybe I will suggest we make special plans for something different. Wifey hates surprises but does like anticipation.


Neither of us are medication people, unless there no other choice. Then we will. 
But looking for a natural solution is the first choice for us. With that said, and complete full disclosure, there is medicinal herbs that I take for anxiety and to help myself sleep and we have noticed on occasion when my husband has part took in certain herbal remedies, it did seem to rev him up a little. Only a couple of times. But we aren’t sure why JUST a couple of times it helped?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mary L said:


> Neither of us are medication people, unless there no other choice. Then we will.
> But looking for a natural solution is the first choice for us. With that said, and complete full disclosure, there is medicinal herbs that I take for anxiety and to help myself sleep and we have noticed on occasion when my husband has part took in certain herbal remedies, it did seem to rev him up a little. Only a couple of times. But we aren’t sure why JUST a couple of times it helped?


I am talking about the herbal medicines you speak of 🌳, as well as it's cousin in the fungi world🍄. That is legal in a few places now (Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz, etc). It I think both enhance intimacy in the relationship. With the 🌳 it is a delicate balance to between having your anxiety melting away (great for sex) and wanting to stay on the couch (not so great). I find myself the horniest when I am about a 3 or 4. Anything higher I am just too lazy and giggly. It works for silly sex where no one finishes.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> I am talking about the herbal medicines you speak of 🌳, as well as it's cousin in the fungi world🍄. That is legal in a few places now (Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz, etc). It I think both enhance intimacy in the relationship. With the 🌳 it is a delicate balance to between having your anxiety melting away (great for sex) and wanting to stay on the couch (not so great). I find myself the horniest when I am about a 3 or 4. Anything higher I am just too lazy and giggly. It works for silly sex where no one finishes.


Have you ever read on microdosing? Both. The fungi was amazing. I didn’t feel anything “medicated” but did the microdosing for 3 months. 
Mind blowing the difference it made. My depression is WAY less. I just process better, period. 
gosh I’m going to get kicked off of here the first week! Idk if this okay?!
The other I do instead of Xanax or something. I’m a very natural person wherever possible. I don’t like those side effects!!! 
and I agree on the dosage! A little is good for this, more is good for that.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mary L said:


> Have you ever read on microdosing? Both. The fungi was amazing. I didn’t feel anything “medicated” but did the microdosing for 3 months.
> Mind blowing the difference it made. My depression is WAY less. I just process better, period.
> gosh I’m going to get kicked off of here the first week! Idk if this okay?!
> The other I do instead of Xanax or something. I’m a very natural person wherever possible. I don’t like those side effects!!!
> and I agree on the dosage! A little is good for this, more is good for that.


Yes to both. Microdosing is the way to go, totally changes your outlook and mindset. I really think it is a miracle drug. If everyone did it a few times we would be in one world love fest. Your empathy and world view expands so much.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> Yes to both. Microdosing is the way to go, totally changes your outlook and mindset. I really think it is a miracle drug. If everyone did it a few times we would be in one world love fest. Your empathy and world view expands so much.


Agreed, 100%!
I know I have "worked on me" over the years, and maybe I did this at the right time? But I cant put into words the mental difference I felt. I still microdose herbal remedies!
Have you ever read the book, Healing with Medical Marijuana? Good book. Its most likely all you already know, but it has some great information.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

OK, I need to vent. You will recall the last argument my wife and I had as about me taking care of my special needs in the bathroom. She had a rule that I could only do it in the shower. We had a discussion to renegotiate as I think it is an unreasonable request. We agreed that as long as I did not make a mess, she would be OK with me doing it in the bathroom going forward. This was about a week ago.

For some background, I try to gauge my wife's mood and sync my alone time so it is not to close to our play time. Otherwise, it takes me too long to finish with her. I waited late last night just in case but we never had our closet time. This morning the urge was strong so I took care of business in the bathroom. My wife needed to use it as well and I let her know I was "busy". She lit up! I opened the door to let her know what I was doing and she blew up, yelled at me, called me a liar, and slammed the door in my face. I was in shock. Last week, I was very careful in making sure I was 100% clear on our agreement so there was no confusion. I reminded her of our agreement and she said that is not what she agreed and that I had coerced her in that discussion. I know for a fact that she said she was OK with it as long as I did not make a mess. I use a fleshlight (love it!) and everything is completely self contained so no way to make a mess.

We went off on each other, and I was ready to walk out of the house to blow off some steam. I stayed and we ended up talking each other down and making up. She admitted to over-reacting and said she is PMSing. That is probably true but she blows up like this more times than I can count. I apologized as well as I over-reacted as well and said she was being a b**ch. I think I have said that to her only once before. I reassured that despite the argument I think we are starting to get closer -- but geez that surprised me. I was so careful with this specific issue yet it still backfired on me. I fell like I need to walk on eggshells. I told her that there are literally 1000 decisions I make a day and have to think "what would wife do".

Anyway, we are good now but that was crazy!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

hubby said:


> OK, I need to vent. You will recall the last argument my wife and I had as about me taking care of my special needs in the bathroom. She had a rule that I could only do it in the shower. We had a discussion to renegotiate as I think it is an unreasonable request. We agreed that as long as I did not make a mess, she would be OK with me doing it in the bathroom going forward. This was about a week ago.
> 
> For some background, I try to gauge my wife's mood and sync my alone time so it is not to close to our play time. Otherwise, it takes me too long to finish with her. I waited late last night just in case but we never had our closet time. This morning the urge was strong so I took care of business in the bathroom. My wife needed to use it as well and I let her know I was "busy". She lit up! I opened the door to let her know what I was doing and she blew up, yelled at me, called me a liar, and slammed the door in my face. I was in shock. Last week, I was very careful in making sure I was 100% clear on our agreement so there was no confusion. I reminded her of our agreement and she said that is not what she agreed and that I had coerced her in that discussion. I know for a fact that she said she was OK with it as long as I did not make a mess. I use a fleshlight (love it!) and everything is completely self contained so no way to make a mess.
> 
> ...


If my husband had enough umps to masterbate, I wouldn't care where he did it, as long as he wasn't making a mess!
My husband and I just won't yell at each other. I mean, we have and do, but it rare. Only because early on, we did a lot!
If I am pissed at him (which I have to admit, its me pissed more than him), I will go cool off before I open my mouth. I tend to word vomit! My husband tends to stay a bit more quite until he blows, then he yells and he's jabby with his words. I cant say we never do this, but it really is rare. It was harder for me to go cool off first, because I am a "solve it right now" person, and my husband can just bury things undertone rug. 
I know that isn't the case here, your situation is different. But I know my husband could say that same sentence "I told her that there are literally 1000 decisions I make a day and have to think "what would wife do". One thing that helped is when we could get to a place that "I" wasn't melting down when talking to him. 
Its a little something, I dont know if it will help or be of vale in your situation, but that was big for us/me.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

hubby said:


> You mentioned senses and my mind jumped to "medications" that heighten senses. Some of these are legal, some are not, depending on the state/country you live in. I always wonder how valuable some of these might be in monogamous relationships, even when tried once together. Some things increase your emotional connection, empathy, open your mind to new ideas and rewire your brain to interpret senses differently. It is not for everyone but just putting it all on the table.
> 
> For my wife and I, it is hard to get adventurous these days. It is summer time and our 4 boys are around the house constantly. We get a break every Friday and Saturday. Maybe I will suggest we make special plans for something different. Wifey hates surprises but does like anticipation.
> 
> One other question for the ladies, do you find that you want in real life the same things you fantasize about in what you read/watch?


Yes for me. If I’ve read or watched something erotic I definitely want to try it and have. I also was going to suggest for your other question you posed about sexy suggestions was your wife blindfolding you and feeding you strawberries (hope you’re not allergic lol) and trying done tactile stroking with objects. Say, a little floppy leather strap or a rope stroking Ofer your body. Add in some very light bondage - tying your wrists with scarfs while all this is being done. Maybe finish off with a 69.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mary L said:


> If my husband had enough umps to masterbate, I wouldn't care where he did it, as long as he wasn't making a mess!
> My husband and I just won't yell at each other. I mean, we have and do, but it rare. Only because early on, we did a lot!
> If I am pissed at him (which I have to admit, its me pissed more than him), I will go cool off before I open my mouth. I tend to word vomit! My husband tends to stay a bit more quite until he blows, then he yells and he's jabby with his words. I cant say we never do this, but it really is rare. It was harder for me to go cool off first, because I am a "solve it right now" person, and my husband can just bury things undertone rug.
> I know that isn't the case here, your situation is different. But I know my husband could say that same sentence* "I told her that there are literally 1000 decisions I make a day and have to think "what would wife do"*. One thing that helped is when we could get to a place that "I" wasn't melting down when talking to him.
> Its a little something, I dont know if it will help or be of vale in your situation, but that was big for us/me.


If a H is doing the bolded above, day in day out couching every decision against what would wife do, that is intolerable and unsustainable unless medically caused by either spouse.

Things don't sound like you have a bad relationship, maybe it's not quite as bad as 1000s of and every decision. 

Because many Hs, me included, would share the comment "that'll be the day".


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

hubby said:


> Excerpt: " Eventually we agreed that if I can keep it spotless then I can do my thing in our bathroom but if she ever found evidence, I am relegated back to the shower."


@hubby 

I did read through (you said it, a looong post 👍) and am hoping you realize that this depth of giving in and sacrificing will be harmful to your emotional well being eventually. 

I read re her OCD, medically an issue, so laudable in that respect.

The second thing: "you're relegated to the bathroom" and only if you take over keeping it spotless".
This like your a child, not a H and Spouse?
And she's not always even reasonably willing yet and pitches a fit if you do "it" ??

The whole cage you're being confined in is an impossibility to maintain by any person, saint or otherwise. 

Something will blow.

Just be ready with the next solution set. 

You sound happy in your marriage and may it always be. 

Just be ready for changing tactics to keep the relationship going because odds are greatly against the present tools working forever.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @hubby
> 
> I did read through (you said it, a looong post 👍) and am hoping you realize that this depth of giving in and sacrificing will be harmful to your emotional well being eventually.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful post @Ragnar Ragnasson. On balance, I am happy with our relationship. It has gradually improved over time. If it ever came to a situation where it was untenable, I would leave with no regrets. That said, I am giving it 110% until that point. 

While she does like to be in control of the small stuff, we do give each other a lot of freedom. For example, if I want to take a sour of the moment surf trip for a few days, she is cool with it. I have had about 10 of those trips in the last few years. She also can go on girls trips whenever she wants (she just did two weeks in UK before s**t hit the fan with COVID). We also go on dates and lot and travel together.

Where we struggle is literally in the house. The issue of control is around cleanliness, safety and sex. I am continuing to focus on keeping reasonable boundaries and expectations in those areas.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If a H is doing the bolded above, day in day out couching every decision against what would wife do, that is intolerable and unsustainable unless medically caused by either spouse.
> 
> Things don't sound like you have a bad relationship, maybe it's not quite as bad as 1000s of and every decision.
> 
> Because many Hs, me included, would share the comment "that'll be the day".


You are right, we don’t have a bad relationship. It’s good in many ways. 

I know he feels like he is always thinking, what would I want him to do in a situation. I do think people need to pick up after themselves, but he’s okay with messy. He was a slob before we met. It’s been a 30 fight, and he’s changed a lot. I just know he feels like it’s never good enough and I don’t understand what it’s such pressure to hang your coat up, put your plate in the dishwasher. I’m not a maid. I work too.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mary L said:


> You are right, we don’t have a bad relationship. It’s good in many ways.
> 
> I know he feels like he is always thinking, what would I want him to do in a situation. I do think people need to pick up after themselves, but he’s okay with messy. He was a slob before we met. It’s been a 30 fight, and he’s changed a lot. I just know he feels like it’s never good enough and I don’t understand what it’s such pressure to hang your coat up, put your plate in the dishwasher. I’m not a maid. I work too.


I can dig all of what you're saying. He should indeed do the given things, like picking up after oneself. 

In my M, that type of basic stuff is long been resolved so in my mind I gloss over those types of minutiae. 

If the simple stuff like that is what all challenges consisted of, what a glorious life it would be.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Way too many rules. No wonder you break them now and then, this is not life. She tells you when to mesterbate? WTF?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Wifey and I had a little chat. I mentioned adding some creativity and excitement. I suggested buying one of those wedges to see if that makes things more comfortable since she wants to do it in the closet. I like to be able to see what is going on. I keep my eyes wide open all the time. Her desire is fueled more mentally and she generally keeps her eyes closed. Mainly I asked that we be generally open minded and playful. We'll see where it goes. Unfortunately with our dynamic, she is in the driver's seat for any kind of change. I can't just surprise her with something new or different without us discussing or agreeing on it beforehand. I, on the other hand, would love to be surprised. I am up for trying anything at least once as long as no one gets hurt.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Hi hubby,

You and Mary L are doing great bouncing ideas off each other. It’s nice to get those perspectives from each side the gender fence.
I believe you are making progress but are failing to grasp some of the big picture. My small issues from the long past have some similarities to your situation. I’m not good at typing long messages on my phone so i will keep it short.
1. A woman does not want to have to control everything but when she figures out that her husband isn’t stepping up then she will take control....all of it. 
2. When #1 happens she is soon labeled OCD
3. Once this dynamic is in place she creates many rules that never end as her mental barometer that her control is being maintained.... like her internal verification.
4. Despite what it may look like.... a woman does not like this situation.
5. The above kills a woman’s sex drive and she will seek to control the encounter.

Anyways .... your being too gentle with her. This will eventually only serve to make her vagina dry and heal over. You need to take some power back and stop bowing down to her like a whipping boy. I know this likely sounds counterproductive to you and a bit difficult to get your head wrapped around. I’ll leave it with a truth that no woman will speak:

She would love to get [email protected] nice and hard and would rise to most any sexual demand from a man who expects exactly that from her.
A woman hates being in charge of sex


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Married said:


> Hi hubby,
> 
> You and Mary L are doing great bouncing ideas off each other. It’s nice to get those perspectives from each side the gender fence.
> I believe you are making progress but are failing to grasp some of the big picture. My small issues from the long past have some similarities to your situation. I’m not good at typing long messages on my phone so i will keep it short.
> ...


That is an interesting take Mr.Married. There is probably some truth to that. I'll wait till a few of the ladies give their $0.02 before I try that 100%. From my experience, desire in women is complex and unique for each of them. What lights a fire for one may put out the flame for another, and vice versa. The trick is finding the spark.

Also, my wife has been diagnosed with and treated for OCD (manifested in high school) so that makes mental desire for her more complex.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Just to be clear,
Those are for information... don’t flip a switch and suddenly try to be something your not. You’re gonna freak her out for sure. I’m only trying to give you perspective


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Married said:


> Just to be clear,
> Those are for information... don’t flip a switch and suddenly try to be something your not. You’re gonna freak her out for sure. I’m only trying to give you perspective


Roger that. Always looking for different perspectives. I know she does respond well to encouragement when "pushed" to get outside her comfort zone. Her initial response is to pull back but she then goes back to reflect and challenges her self to push boundaries. I usually wait for her to take the lead after we discuss. I have previously discussed what activities she is comfortable with and I have never just tried something new without talking about it. I am not sure how she would respond to something like that.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

hubby said:


> My wife always initiates (she likes it there way)
> It is in the same place: the closet with a towel underneath
> Always same position: Missionary
> She keeps her eyes closed
> ...


Just some thoughts on this list what may be underlying here:

1. Fear of loss of control
2. Fear of being discovered by kids
3. Avoidance of pain, shame of porn-like sex
4. Intimacy avoidance and/or disassociation
5. Fear of intimacy, lack of attraction
6. Insecurity or shame of porn-like behavior (abuse related?)
7. Fear of letting go but could be a physiological thing
8. Intimacy avoidance, discomfort 
9. Intimacy avoidance, purely physical and not enjoyable 

Now based on the bathroom incident, I would make it perfectly clear to her that setting such constraints on sex then placing constraints on you masturbating is over the line. Should you be courteous and not leave a mess... you bet. As long as you enough for her and aren’t cheating then she really has no say over you. This is a CONTROL thing and likely headed towards emotional abuse territory. Honestly, deep down she knows she’s got some sexual pain but would rather control you and make you the bad guy versus facing it. Some women take masturbation as a slap in the face but those women are trying to have their cake and eat it too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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