# Why am I the only person he's not nice to?



## northernlights

Everyone thinks my H is the nicest guy. And he is, to other people! Just not to me! For example, he's quick to offer friends money if they need help, but when I ask for something expensive for a gift (not crazy expensive! Like, seriously, something that costs less than 1% of what we have in the bank), it's no. That's too expensive. What makes you think you deserve that? Or, if his parents need him to run an errand, he's off doing it. But if I need him to pick up the kids or watch them for half an hour so I can work, it's no, he's too busy. 

The helping out his parents thing is what's setting this rant off. We moved near them 6 months ago, and since then he's been a model son. Helping, driving them places, you name it. He's self-employed so he has a lot of flexibility.

But when I had asked him to use his flexibility to watch the kids so I could work part time, it was always no, I can't. (I've always struggled to balance part-time work with SAHMing. It's a big deal to me, because it's so, so difficult to get a job if you've been totally unemployed for years). And I believed him at the time. But now, to see him almost effortlessly blend taking care of his parents just hurts. He COULD have done it for me, he just chose not to. All that stress, all that juggling child care and cutting back more and more on my hours because it wasn't worth it when I had to pay for a sitter... all that time he could have helped.

Why is he like this? I feel like if I do divorce him, people are going to be shocked. It's just that he's nice to everyone except me... Who's ever going to believe that? Why does he do this??


----------



## JJG

Because he has been doing it for years with no consequences?

People treat you the way you allow them to treat you. 

He is nice to other people because that is the treatment they expect and demand.


----------



## Zig

Some people who are looking to get out of a marriage will be very nice to everyone except their spouse so that when they want to leave everyone in the neighborhood will be saying that it must be the other person's fault for ruining a marriage to such a nice person.

I'm not saying he wants to divorce you, just a thought.


----------



## Mavash.

Sadly it seems some people are nicer to strangers than they are their spouses. What's that phrase we hurt those we love the most.

But bottom line is he's doing it because he CAN. As long as there are no consequences for his bad behavior he has little reason to stop. Likely he's more fearful of others than he is you. I find pleasers to be like that. It's also a narcissistic trait. They are charming to the world but treat those closest to them like crap.


----------



## NextTimeAround

My mother is like that. Friendly and obliging to everyone else, she shows her teeth to me. 

Strange that your husband doesn't want to help out with childcare when your work helps out with the household budget.

Short of any better suggestions, perhaps you could ask your in laws to help out; simply hand him a schedule for needed childcare; discuss with him other options if there any.

As for getting yourself stuff, well, just go buy and don't ask for permission.

How does he behave towards you in front of other people?


----------



## happysnappy

Maybe the solution is to not ask him to watch the kids. Get the job and then talk to him about how the two of you can cover child care


----------



## Lon

Because he is the typical "Nice Guy" that many guys struggle with, he is nice in order to avoid conflict and get approval, and it is his basic paradigm to put the needs of others ahead of himself... and because he is married to you he views you the same way he views himself, to put the needs of others ahead of your own. So on one hand do realize that you hold a major significant spot in his life, on the other hand he has little idea just how destructive it can be and how hurtful to you it is. He expects you to accept this as being the proper way, and in my opinion it is really important that you've identified it, been able to write it out and come to this forum because there are a LOT of guys here trying to recover from their niceguy ways, most didn't have W's who recognized this and assumed that it was lack of love. When their W's (like mine) sought divorce or worse, they were utterly devastated and humiliated.

I don't think you or him can change who he is, but he can learn to recognize and understand that his coping method of seeking approval is causing neglected needs in the marriage. Just search this forum for "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and other references to nice guy behavior. Men's clubhouse is a good place to look.


----------



## northernlights

I'll get him that book. It's not going to turn him into a jerk though, right? 

I can't have the in-laws help with the kids, my MIL just had surgery and my FIL has dementia. It's not so bad now because the littler one is in pre-K, so I get a few hours a week to work, which is enough for now (I freelance). Which kind of makes the problem worse, because it's more in the past now. It makes me feel resentful for the past 7 years, with no way to go about fixing it for the future. 

He does have some narcissist tendencies, so that idea makes sense too. 

He's fine in public, the same really. He's not affectionate at home and he doesn't pretend to be when we're out, but I don't think it's the kind of thing that anyone notices. I think we look like a typical couple that's been together for 13 years.


----------



## Lon

If he's a narcissist, he is not being a pleaser to seek approval. Honestly he doesn't sounds narcissistic at all to me, or else he wouldn't care about pleasing others for more than a couple minutes in order to get them to commit to doing something for him instead. Will trying to get past being a doormat turn him into a jerk? Well that depends how he goes about rewiring his behaviors, because the point is to hopefully change his and your perspective of him, it also depends on the reasons you were attracted to him - if it was because of the way he pleased you like he now pleases others, you may lose a part of that, however if he has some success you may see him grow into a more commanding person who is able to get his needs met and has more energy to invest into working on the marriage and relationship instead of with others. That kind of change is never easy though and will take a long time, and he hasn't even started yet.


----------



## IsGirl3

you cannot continue on this way being treated like sh*t. it will continue and it will get worse and he will keep pushing boundaries and blameshifting. this is not the charming guy you married, treating you nicely, I'm sure. This is not something your kids should see or grow up with.

Get the book, "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner. I read this book a long time ago, over 20 years ago. The basic premise is that you can't change other people; you can only change yourself. You and your husband are locked in a dance - he treats you badly and you take it. You dance the same dance over and over - things never seem to change. But once you change your dance step, the dance has to change. If you want to save this marriage and your sanity, self-worth, and self-esteem, and probably your sex life, you need to figure out what you need to do and say to change, but one thing is certain, things have to change.

There is no reason on this earth to be treated badly.

On a different note, I don't know if that gift issue has wings or not. To say that it was 1% of your worth doesn't let us know if it's a $100 gift, $500, $5,000. A $2,000 gift would be way excessive in my house. I think anything over a few hundred is a lot.


----------



## Dollystanford

Lon may be right but there is something else you might consider. My ex husband used to do this all the time, because everything he did was for show. He had to look good to other people but actually showed his true colours with me. 

The biggest issue he had when he left was that I actually dared to tell his mother a few home truths. Cos when you scratched the surface he wasn't that nice after all

Just another POV


----------



## Lon

Dollystanford said:


> Lon may be right but there is something else you might consider. My ex husband used to do this all the time, because everything he did was for show. He had to look good to other people but actually showed his true colours with me.
> 
> The biggest issue he had when he left was that I actually dared to tell his mother a few home truths. Cos when you scratched the surface he wasn't that nice after all
> 
> Just another POV


Yes that is true, it is all for show, and the reasons behind that are probably different for someone who is genuinely nice vs one whom is not. If he is a kind man, despite being a little neglectful sometimes, you picked a good one - if he is just plain mean to you... it's because he is a mean person.


----------



## galian84

I've heard the phrase "we hurt those we love the most". I've also heard a lot about "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and I think it's worth taking a look at.

I also think it may have to do with narcissistic tendencies, as you and others have mentioned; they show off their best side with others, but with those closest to them, their true colors come out. My ex-boyfriend, my uncle and my mom are three prime examples. My uncle was nice and friendly to EVERYONE, except his own family. If someone else wronged him, he would smile and say "no problem", but then he'd come home and throw a fit at his family.

My mom is a total sweetheart and a complete charmer, and everyone she meets loves her. But with us, she has no qualms about showing a different person, "baring her teeth" as NextTimeAround mentioned.

My ex would forgive everyone else for their mistakes, but when I made a mistake, it was like it was the end of the world for him, and he wouldn't let me forget it. Whenever something went wrong, he automatically blamed me. It was never his fault, or anyone else's fault.

OR, I'm guessing he doesn't even realize his behavior is hurting you. He probably just assumes that you'll always be there, so he doesn't need to go out of his way for you. Do you know if he was also like this with his exes?

Either way, you need to be prepared to take action. This is no way to live. My current boyfriend was like this--putting everyone else before his SO, and everyone that knew him thought he was the nicest guy. I put my foot down and it does seem like he's starting to come around, because I made it clear I had no issues with leaving him if he continued to put me, and my needs, behind everyone else's.


----------



## NextTimeAround

You could also try an assertiveness training course. Community colleges sometimes offer them. They give strategies for specific situations and like with Dance of Anger, when you change your behaviour, you will get a change in reactions.


----------



## northernlights

It's so hard, I don't know what's wrong with me but I can't even figure out what kind of person he is at heart. He isn't especially kind or especially mean. He's totally neutral. He doesn't say anything mean, but he doesn't say anything nice either. He doesn't start conversations or do anything for me (like, make dinner or plan a date. He never has, even when we were dating). If I want to go somewhere, he'll often say no, but if I push, he'll give in (like, I wanted to take the girls camping last summer. He said no way. I said I thought they'd like it and would be willing to take them myself if he didn't want to go. He tried to talk me out of it, then came. Once he made up his mind that he was coming, he was positive about the trip).

I dunno, it's just weird. Does immaturity explain it all too? Because honestly, the best way I can explain what it's like to live with him is that he's like my 7 year old. She doesn't think about me (nor should she!), but it's not because she doesn't love me, it's because 7 year olds think about themselves. It's like, I can't convince him that I need things from him. I thought just telling him would do it, but he comes up with excuses. 

The gift I wanted did cost more than $500, and I think I was way overreaching by asking for it. He's never spent more than 100 on me. I'm not even a gifts/love languages person, I was just desperate for him to prove that I mattered to him. The heartbreaking part was that I'd said that to him already. It wasn't like I was setting up a trap. I just needed SOMETHING to make me feel like I matter to him.


----------



## northernlights

NextTimeAround said:


> You could also try an assertiveness training course. Community colleges sometimes offer them. They give strategies for specific situations and like with Dance of Anger, when you change your behaviour, you will get a change in reactions.


You know, it's funny, because generally I'm good at expressing myself. When H and I first got married, I thought for SURE that we'd be fine, never divorce. He's so easy-going, and I don't expect people to be mind-readers. I never, ever anticipated being in the position where I can ask him for what I need, and he'd say no, for no apparent reason.


----------



## Rowan

northernlights said:


> I dunno, it's just weird. Does immaturity explain it all too? Because honestly, the best way I can explain what it's like to live with him is that he's like my 7 year old. She doesn't think about me (nor should she!), but it's not because she doesn't love me, it's because 7 year olds think about themselves. It's like, I can't convince him that I need things from him. I thought just telling him would do it, but he comes up with excuses.


Ahhh, you've got one of those, too? Yeah, I married that guy. I describe it like when we got married, he unconciously moved me from his "to do" list to his "done" list. My husband is an engineer (which is a personality type, not just a job description) with strong ADHD traits. He was also raised as the "baby boy" by a neglectful alcoholic father and a co-dependent enabling super-mom. He doesn't think about or consider me (unless I'm being defective in some way), not because he doesn't love me but because it honestly doesn't occur to him to consider anyone else. He, like your husband, has that sort of natural "benign" narcissism of your average child or teen. Not malicious, just simply unconcerned about other people in any emotional way - and no, there's no Aspergers or anything else to explain it other than a deep self-centeredness.

And yes, eveyone who knows my husband thinks he's the nicest guy ever and that I'm such a lucky woman to have such a great guy.


----------



## northernlights

Rowan said:


> He was also raised as the "baby boy" by a neglectful alcoholic father and a co-dependent enabling super-mom.


Gah, this sounds like my H's upbringing! Alcoholic dad and self-absorbed mother, with a grandmother that utterly babied him. He's an only, too.

How do you make it work?


----------



## Mavash.

northernlights said:


> the best way I can explain what it's like to live with him is that he's like my 7 year old. She doesn't think about me (nor should she!), but it's not because she doesn't love me, it's because 7 year olds think about themselves.


Another narcissistic trait. They are children trapped in a grown up's body. Children are narcissistic until they grow up and learn to take others needs into consideration. Some people never get out of that stage.



> Gah, this sounds like my H's upbringing! Alcoholic dad and self-absorbed mother, with a grandmother that utterly babied him. He's an only, too.


More reasons he might be a narcissist. My dad is one so I'm familiar with them and how they are made. I say 'might'. Obviously there is a lot more to it. He could just be self absorbed. It's all in degrees. But alarms are going off in my head reading your story is all I'm saying....


----------



## NextTimeAround

I feel as if my exH thought of me as an asset to loan out to friends. For example, if a group were planning an activity, someone might call my exH and ask if I can help. Instead of telling that person, "here you can ask her," he would just simply say, "yes she can" and then expect me to follow through.


----------



## Emerald

It's a form of control to keep you dependent on him.

The more assertive you become, he will get worse.


----------



## northernlights

Emerald said:


> It's a form of control to keep you dependent on him.
> 
> The more assertive you become, he will get worse.


I was wondering if he, on some level, intentionally prevented me from working to make me depend on him. 

When you say he will get worse, what do you mean? More self-absorbed, or worse in a different way? There's been some passive-aggressive attempt at preventing me from driving, and I've wondered if this is also possibly a control thing.


----------



## pink_lady

northernlights said:


> It's so hard, I don't know what's wrong with me but I can't even figure out what kind of person he is at heart. He isn't especially kind or especially mean. He's totally neutral. He doesn't say anything mean, but he doesn't say anything nice either. He doesn't start conversations or do anything for me (like, make dinner or plan a date. He never has, even when we were dating). If I want to go somewhere, he'll often say no, but if I push, he'll give in (like, I wanted to take the girls camping last summer. He said no way. I said I thought they'd like it and would be willing to take them myself if he didn't want to go. He tried to talk me out of it, then came. Once he made up his mind that he was coming, he was positive about the trip).
> 
> I dunno, it's just weird. Does immaturity explain it all too? Because honestly, the best way I can explain what it's like to live with him is that he's like my 7 year old. She doesn't think about me (nor should she!), but it's not because she doesn't love me, it's because 7 year olds think about themselves. It's like, I can't convince him that I need things from him. I thought just telling him would do it, but he comes up with excuses.
> 
> The gift I wanted did cost more than $500, and I think I was way overreaching by asking for it. He's never spent more than 100 on me. I'm not even a gifts/love languages person, I was just desperate for him to prove that I mattered to him. The heartbreaking part was that I'd said that to him already. It wasn't like I was setting up a trap. I just needed SOMETHING to make me feel like I matter to him.


I feel you. My H is also like a child who doesn't seem to grasp that I might have needs of my own, and that he might need to make some sort of effort to fulfill them.

He is also 'the nicest guy' to everyone else. He's always the one the female friends run to with their boyfriend troubles, and he always tells them they deserve better treatment. Ironic.

Last night he got all angry when a guy made a veiled threat to one of his female friends and told me 'if he EVER so much as laid a hand on her I'd....' Nice to know he's so protective...of OTHER people. When it's me, I'm on my own.

I understand what its like to be desperate for a sign or symbol of actual caring from your husband.


----------



## SadSamIAm

It is so strange how it seems like every thread I read this morning is so true to my own situation.

Narcissistic spouse - Check
Alcoholic Father in Law - Check
Spineless Mother in Law - Check
Everyone else thinks she is great - Check
Doesn't care about my needs - Check


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Why am I the only person he's not nice to?*



northernlights said:


> Gah, this sounds like my H's upbringing! Alcoholic dad and self-absorbed mother, with a grandmother that utterly babied him. He's an only, too.
> 
> How do you make it work?


I'm a lot like your H, and in realizing a common theme of alcoholic fathers and codependent mothers... and every once I awhile I get this sense like I'm missing something really important but I dont know what it is and nobody else can even tell me what it is because they have no way to even comprehend what I our others know and don't know. I just want to see what's behind the curtain but nobody else knows there is even a curtain they have always seen right through it.

The only way your h will ever know what your needs are is for you to concisely and clearly tell him exactly what those are, because he cannot even begin to understand what they are. Sometimes he may need step by step instructions, in order to calibrate himself to the relationship. So many relationships fail because we expect people to just intrinsicly understand us, but it doesn't work that way especially when one has missed a crucial step in development along the way, like seems so common in children of alcoholics or codependents.


----------



## galian84

Lon said:


> The only way your h will ever know what your needs are is for you to concisely and clearly tell him exactly what those are, because he cannot even begin to understand what they are. Sometimes he may need step by step instructions, in order to calibrate himself to the relationship. So many relationships fail because we expect people to just intrinsicly understand us, but it doesn't work that way especially when one has missed a crucial step in development along the way, like seems so common in children of alcoholics or codependents.


:iagree: I find this to be especially true when someone has lived alone or been very independent for a long time. I also found that it's a hard transition to get used to living with somebody and all of a sudden having someone else's time, schedule, and feelings to consider. But it can be done if the person is willing to try. I'm not sure if this is the case with northernlights' husband, though?

I actually found that to be the case with my SO: He was living on his own since he was 18. The only time he lived with someone was with his ex-wife for 2 years (and I heard they spent a lot of their time apart anyway), and he's in his mid-40s. So when I moved in with him, I used to get mad and feel neglected that he was just doing what he always did, when he was living alone. I think it just never occurred to him to consider somebody else living in the house with him. That is exactly what I had to do for him to meet my needs. I had to tell him flat out and sometimes I'll need to remind him, but he's making an honest effort. 

Sorry for the small derailment, but yes, totally agree, if you need something from your spouse, just ask them =)


----------



## Rowan

northernlights said:


> Gah, this sounds like my H's upbringing! Alcoholic dad and self-absorbed mother, with a grandmother that utterly babied him. He's an only, too.
> 
> How do you make it work?


Unfortunately, we don't. I don't. Not anymore. My husband's self-absorption was combined with a serious and near-constant need for novelty and excitement, as well as a serious sense of entitlement. He really thought his infidelities were good for our marriage because they made him happy. And since I wasn't supposed to find out and he didn't mean to hurt me, then I "shouldn't" have been hurt when I did find out......

Yeah.


----------



## northernlights

I'm sorry Rowan.

I've told him what I need all along. And he would always say, Ok, I can do that for you. Then he just wouldn't. I tried to help him follow through by suggesting he make a list, I tried writing to him instead of talking in case it was a spoken communication thing. Nothing. I just finally hit my breaking point. I feel like the old saying applies here: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. 

Now I see the pattern repeating with his relationship with our kids. He's not good at meeting their needs, so I'm spending a ton of energy trying to discreetly direct him. The bigger one is loving and forgiving, but the younger one is tough. We're at the point where I'm coaching him on discipline daily and prompting him to interact positively with her. She desperately needs this. 

It's just too much for me. I can't carry my own relationship with him plus his relationships with the kids. Not without getting resentful and feeling like I have another kid instead of a partner.

He says he gets how I feel and that he wants to change, but he won't actually read any of the books on parenting or relationships that I've bought, even though I try to gently remind without nagging every few weeks. 

I feel so stuck. We do, finally, have our first counseling appointment together next friday (he made one in october, went alone, then cancelled the second when I said I wanted to go too). Unfortunately, the sex has really dropped off (on top of the marital problems I'm still having awful period issues. I won't go into details, but it's put a damper on sex). Hopefully that's a good thing though. I hadn't stopped meeting his needs, so maybe the dry spell is going to serve as something of a wake-up call.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I can remember watching my ex (#2) interacting with the woman next door to us one day. I saw the sweet, easy going man I had fallen in love with. That was when it hit me that he was never like that with me any more. I would get dirty looks, impatience and criticism. I even asked him, how come SHE gets the GOOD (hisname)?" He just kind of gave me a blow-off, non answer. Hurts just to think of it even now.


----------



## northernlights

My old college buddy was visiting this spring and it was the same kind of thing. H was cracking her up and it just made me pissed off. I hadn't seen that side of him in years.

It's the same when he plays with other people's kids, too. I don't think he realizes it, but he plays more with our friends' sons than their daughters. We have 2 girls, so people are constantly making cute little comments like, "uh-oh, I think you'll have to have a 3rd, he wants a son!" But it's hurtful. 

Ugh, it pissed me off when we were in his country (this was 3 years ago, I really do need to learn how to get over things), and a man we don't know was taking pictures of our younger daughter. I don't speak the language so I told H to ask him to stop. He said no! So I had to do it, fortunately the man spoke a tiny bit of English. But still. I'm not a physically imposing person (I'm about 5'6" and 115 lbs), and don't enjoy approaching strange men, especially when I don't speak the language.


----------



## northernlights

Hm, now I'm just thinking aloud, but his cognitive testing did reveal that he has practically 0 ability to handle stress. Maybe approaching a stranger is too stressful for him to handle? It still sucks, but I'd rather believe that he shut down than didn't care enough to do something uncomfortable for the sake of his family. I'll make sure to bring up the stress coping thing at MC next week.


----------



## Advocado

NL - it sucks when you feel unnoticed and unworthy of your H's attention and effort. My H will often bend over backwards for others but if I ask him to do the same thing for me it's like I have to beg, like he's doing me some great favour and I ought to be grateful if he does decide to do it (which he doesn't always). He makes it such a big deal that in the end I give up asking - no doubt that is what he wants. It's a very difficult cycle to break if you are not a "demanding" sort of person. 

I have found that being demanding over certain things gets me the help I need but as it is not in my nature to be demanding, as soon as I relax my stance, things go back to square one. I need to work on how I can maintain being "demanding". Then again, I just want to be myself so there's a conflict within myself on this one which is why I cannot keep it up, if you follow what I mean!

I hear that at times you ask him to do something, he says he will do it and then doesn't. You also mentioned going camping and he didn't get on board with the idea until he saw that you were going to do it anyway (Bravo to you on this :smthumbup. This makes me wonder - if you are able to show him you are independent more often, and in a variety of ways, would he then be more inclined to help out with the things you ask him to do. 

Also have you tried asking him to do something whilst there are others present. Like ask him to mind the kids when his parents are present. Then if he does follow through make sure next time you speak to his parents he hears you telling them how helpful he's been. That way he's helping you and will also get the satifaction of being well thought of in his parents eyes, which seems to matter alot to him. Just my thoughts on the matter. 

Continuing on that line, maybe make a point of noticing when he does something useful, however small, and then make a point of acknowledging, praising or thanking him for his efforts when others are around. Hmm - might need to try this myself! I'm glad you started this thread - makes me think.


----------



## northernlights

AGGGH!!! What am I doing wrong? What am I missing??

I just had a talk with H a week ago, when I started this thread, about how I feel resentful that he's shown me that he DOES have the flexibility to help his parents out, even though he told me again and again that he couldn't watch the kids so I could work. I told him how very hurtful that was, he admitted that he had chosen to not help me and didn't make an effort to be flexible for me, and he apologized.

This week, he's watching the neighbor's kids!

I'm furious. He said, "well she needed someone to watch them, I felt bad." *I* needed him to watch his own kids, and he didn't feel bad for me! AND WE JUST HAD THIS CONVERSATION!!!!

Plus, his aunt is visiting this week, so I'm already doing extra work entertaining her. Why did he say yes to this woman?? She has 2 boys, 5 and 8, watching them for 4 hours is no easy job. 

It's just so frustrating. How do we make progress? Is it me?? Why can we talk, and have some productive communication, and then he can turn around and a week later pull the same old crap. This is killing me. 

I know I can't make him change... but it's so frustrating, and right now I feel so powerless. I don't want to divorce! I didn't get married and have two kids with him because I want to be a single mom! I'm moving out in 6 weeks, but it's more of a visa issue, and he's moving home in 4 months. So while I'm tying to push it as a trial separation, I know that he's seeing it as an unfortunate temporary circumstance. What else can I do, short of filing for a divorce I don't want, to wake him up???


----------



## northernlights

And, to just go on about this for a minute (sorry!)... I can't tell if this is our biggest issue (the fact that he will acknowledge behavior that hurts me, but then keep right on doing it), or is just the straw that's breaking the camel's back. 

I mean, I see spouses here who care when their wives or husbands tell them, I'm hurting, or I am losing my feelings for you and I need your help to make this stop. But I told him that, and I got nothing. Maybe I was too gentle and hedging at first, because I was afraid of hurting him, but over the years I got more and more forceful about saying that I was losing it. Until finally, I told him, that's it, it's gone, and if it wasn't for the kids I'd leave, and he still just doesn't seem to care!! He wanted to have sex, and I told him I've been forcing myself to go along with it but I didn't want to that night, and he said, "well can't we just have a purely physical relationship?" 

Sigh, I don't know. We've started MC and the therapist wants him to do IC. I just wish I knew WHY he doesn't respond and if there's any hope of this changing. I am willing to do the hard work of trying to fix this, but if we have no chance, I'd like to spare myself the pain of getting my hopes up and then dashed. I'd rather put the energy into propping myself up emotionally, because I sure do feel put through the ringer.

Sorry to just go on and on. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Tigger

I wish I had something positive to say about your situation.

My first husband was the bees knees of charm. Charming and charismatic with everyone but his own family.

My mother called it Street Angel/House Devil.

These things tend not to get any better because they don't think they are doing anything wrong. It is part of the disorder in they blame everyone else.

I can see this type of thing becoming more prevalent in society with the generation of kids that have been coddled all their lives with everything and everyone revolving around them. They haven't been taught to care about anything other than themselves.

The more I read about passive aggression the more my current husband fits that to a T.

There isn't much hope for them to get better unless they want to. I mean why should he? He can act like an overgrown child getting all his needs met without having to do anything in life. Some people are like that.

I think you have to decide for yourself how much longer you are going to put up with because right now there is no longer a marriage. It is one sided. You becoming exhausting and frustrated trying to fix something he doesn't care about.

You running around handling all the adult things in life with the kids, bills, etc. while he coasts through life.


----------



## northernlights

Tigger said:


> I think you have to decide for yourself how much longer you are going to put up with because right now there is no longer a marriage. It is one sided. You becoming exhausting and frustrated trying to fix something he doesn't care about.
> 
> You running around handling all the adult things in life with the kids, bills, etc. while he coasts through life.


I know. I'm trying to be hopeful that he'll change with counseling, but I'm going to use the separation time to try to get myself to a place where I can be happy with a roommate situation and let go of having the kind of partnership I've dreamed of. If I can get to a point where I expect nothing of him, I think we'll be able to have a peaceful coexistence until the kids are out of the house.


----------



## Fledgling

northernlights said:


> I know. I'm trying to be hopeful that he'll change with counseling, but I'm going to use the separation time to try to get myself to a place where I can be happy with a roommate situation and let go of having the kind of partnership I've dreamed of. If I can get to a point where I expect nothing of him, I think we'll be able to have a peaceful coexistence until the kids are out of the house.


He is not going to change with counseling. My husband, too, is full of charm but people catch on quick. I have been where you are at. (for instance it snowed heavily a while back and the car was stuck in the drive. In order to go grocery shopping it needed to be snowblowed so the car can get out. By five o'clock after a full day with the kids the snow wasn't blowed and I had to do it myself. I left the baby in my husband's care and trudged out into the semi-dark to snowblow. When I was done I came in to find my husband napping, nothing else done, and my eldest son in charge of the baby. No joke. So I do understand, intimately what you are going through.) Several times over the course of my marriage something occur where I nearly lose it (and have lost it in the past). This mindset that you have of a peaceful coexistence is not workable. I've tried it and failed so I am not saying this lightly. You will hurt everyone involved if you go down this path. You, your husband, and your kids. And all that time will not only be wasted but you will look back on it and resent it. Guaranteed.

Honestly what you should consider doing is either ending things here and now (now matter how unworkable it may seem financially or socially) or recommit to your marriage _fully_. Given where you are at it must seem impossible to recommit in such a way. But the very definition of love is give unselfishly. I know that you think you aren't being selfish by asking him to do what he should by all rights be doing. But unselfish love forgives easily and expects nothing in return IN COMBINATION. If you just forgave him and lowered your expections he will continue to walk all over you. If you have no expectations but can't forgive him guess what? He'll walk all over you. And he won't even do it conciously which will tick you off more.

One more thing to consider, I may be confusing youwith another poster but the advice is still the same. Your children will develop a relationship with their father no matter what you do to mitigate what you view as harmful. he is always going to be in their lives and you won't be able to shield them forever. Consider trying to find a way to provide your children with choices. Instead of masking your husband's faults try to offer your children other solutions that allow them to come to a better understanding.


----------



## northernlights

Fledgling said:


> or recommit to your marriage _fully_.


This is still the ideal, but I'm at the point where I don't see how. Maybe our MC can help here. I definitely need the separation to get a break from all the stress and anger I have built up, and maybe I can make some headway into getting past that during it.

I guess the ideal here is to divorce the old marriage over the separation and start a new one? Leave everything that happened before July 2013 behind? And just like I wouldn't get mad at my new husband for something my exhusband did, I don't let anything from before into our new marriage? But, for this to work, he still has to make changes. Or else I'll just spend another 10 years re-creating and re-living the past 10 years, right?

You also wrote:

"But the very definition of love is give unselfishly. I know that you think you aren't being selfish by asking him to do what he should by all rights be doing. But unselfish love forgives easily and expects nothing in return IN COMBINATION. If you just forgave him and lowered your expections he will continue to walk all over you. If you have no expectations but can't forgive him guess what? He'll walk all over you. And he won't even do it conciously which will tick you off more."

How will forgiving and asking nothing of him prevent him from walking all over me?


----------



## Fledgling

Hmmm, perhaps I awkwardly worded that. Sorry. I'll try better. I don't mean never have expectations of him as far as him doing his duty. What I mean is no expectations of him recognzing and admitting that you are stepping up in his place. If you are always waiting for a lightbulb to go off everytime he commits a for lack of a better word, a sin, and for him to somehow recognizing that you are in pain it may feel to him like you are trying to guilt him. And like I said you are not going to step up in his place. You are physically incapable of it so quit trying. You are setting yourself up for failure that way. You simply can't do his job and yours all the time. 

What you can do is set boundaries in how you deal with him. Not for him. You already set boundaries for him when you married him which he is slacking on already. Why would he comply with new boundaries? But boundaries for yourself. Figure out what your deal breaker is. This is the line where if he crosses it you can leave guilt free. For instance my husband has always been really good at being affectionate toward me. Lots of hugs, smiles, humor, hand holding in the car, complimenting me to other people etc. I do the best I can to encourage this behaviour between him and the whole family. My personal boundary is that if he should stop doing these things I know that I couldn't bear it on top of everything else. So I choose a boundary that always be to encourage him rather than discouraging him. 

I don't know if I am making sense. And this might not even work for you. My whole point is that you don't want to turn yourself into the opposite of the woman he fell in love with if you want to save your marriage.


----------



## northernlights

Oh, ok, I see what you're saying. I think probably one of the reasons I've failed at setting boundaries with him is that I never had any intention of leaving, no matter what, and he knew this. I do see the value in getting to a place where I will give myself permission to go, and how this can actually strengthen our marriage. I've seen the advice here that, "you have to be willing to lose the marriage to really save it," but I've never been willing to lose the marriage. Truth be told, I'm still not. We just did a big move, and it's stressed the kids out so much... I can't imagine putting them through a divorce. 

Maybe the separation will change that. If the kids aren't too stressed by it (and something tells me that without him dumping his stress into the household every day, things might be a lot easier on that front), maybe I'll be able to envision a divorce that would be minimally traumatic for them.


----------



## Fledgling

Be careful that you don't try to scare him into obedience. It's not about "do this or else I'll leave". that will backfire reall quick, especially if he decides to take you up on it and you find out that you are willing to do much more to save the marriage. Rather it's a mindset that will effect your attitude and therefore your marriage in a positive way. In a way it requires alot of self reflection. You may be so caught up in each of his errors that you don't really know what you need out of the marriage. 

ETA: Don't envision a divorce. Seriously. When we can see something in our minds eye we tend to make it real. When I say leave I mean leave this woman behind and be the woman you want to be regardless of your husbands actions. We all have to change a bit to accomodate our husbands/wives. Just do a lot of self reflection so that you are aware of when you can't accomodate anymore.


----------



## northernlights

Fledgling said:


> When I say leave I mean leave this woman behind and be the woman you want to be regardless of your husbands actions. We all have to change a bit to accomodate our husbands/wives. Just do a lot of self reflection so that you are aware of when you can't accomodate anymore.


The problem is, this IS where I am. My frustration is that it still doesn't matter. He doesn't seem to notice or care. That's why I say that I've hesitated to draw a boundary that says "I'll leave if I'm treated like this." He continues to treat me poorly, and I have no intention of leaving. I know what I want, I communicate positively... I might as well be talking to the wall. 

I think that at this point, there's nothing *I* can do. (My husband is the one who left the kids alone in a swimming pool to shoot hoops and told me his black hair is blond. In all seriousness. The man has serious problems with reality). Our marriage counselor has recommended that we go ahead with the separation and he use that time for serious IC, while I use it for a break from the stress and insanity. 

It's just, I'm a problem-solver (I'm more like a typical man in a relationship I think). I hate the idea that I'm just supposed to wait on him. Maybe I just need to put the serenity prayer up on the wall and turn to that when I feel frustrated.

Thank you for your responses though Fledgling. It helps, a lot, to get perspective and someone to talk things through with.


----------



## northernlights

Ugh, I'm also just feeling like a 5 year old today. I don't want to stay in this marriage the way it is. I don't want to divorce. I don't want to do the hard work of forgiving him (if I even can) and starting it all over again. They're all choices I don't like and resent.

Well, obviously that's not going to get me anywhere but more frustrated and even more unhappy! I'm just feeling so stuck and unhappy. 
Our MC says I'll feel better when we're separated, and I'll be able to start recovering from this feeling then. I hope that's true. I'm so scared that I'm not going to be strong enough. 

Well, one day at a time, right?


----------



## Fledgling

northernlights said:


> The problem is, this IS where I am. My frustration is that it still doesn't matter. He doesn't seem to notice or care. That's why I say that I've hesitated to draw a boundary that says "I'll leave if I'm treated like this." He continues to treat me poorly, and I have no intention of leaving. I know what I want, I communicate positively... I might as well be talking to the wall.
> 
> I think that at this point, there's nothing *I* can do. (My husband is the one who left the kids alone in a swimming pool to shoot hoops and told me his black hair is blond. In all seriousness. The man has serious problems with reality). Our marriage counselor has recommended that we go ahead with the separation and he use that time for serious IC, while I use it for a break from the stress and insanity.
> 
> It's just, I'm a problem-solver (I'm more like a typical man in a relationship I think). I hate the idea that I'm just supposed to wait on him. Maybe I just need to put the serenity prayer up on the wall and turn to that when I feel frustrated.
> 
> Thank you for your responses though Fledgling. It helps, a lot, to get perspective and someone to talk things through with.


I know that really stinks! Sometimes you just have to bounce things off someone. You don't have to agree with me. I won't take it personally.

I read a book once that said it is reasonable to buy a new car when the repairs on your old one tax your limited budget. But if you were to bust your hand so that all the little bones were broken you would put yourself in debt, go bankrupt even, to do the necessary work to fix your hand. Because it is yours and you just can't live with out it, and you would do it without a second thought willingly. We have a tendency to treat our marriages like the broken car when we should treat them like our hand. 

As you go through this separation keep in mind that you are doing it to save your marriage. It's easy when you are separate notice how you can do this on your own with less stress. 

I know that you are down and you feel stuck. Just remember, one way or another, this will NOT last forever. You ARE strong enough. I have been where you are at. Yu can do this. *hugs*


----------



## Rang0407

It's called "Control". I have been going through this for 16 years! He had cheated 7 times with 7 different women (before we married) because he loves "attention". We have been together 16+years. BUT...we never moved in until 4 years ago...why?....He lived with family members (who has no morals) and I caught him cheating 7 times with 7 different women...that I know of until I finally gave him a tough hit in the balls! During the first 11 years he lied, cheated, used, manipulated and hurt me like no other has ever done. (A LOT of emotional abuse) I had gotten arrested (for catching him in bed with another women and beating on then both) for fighting another woman (well I actually fought more than one). I would tell these women they are stupid and that they were just his *****s and that he will always come back to me...WELL...yes...they were and yes he did BUT...I got fed up with his BS that I finally said F U ( after I caught him again...with a woman who was absolutely a bottom feeder, unclean, bad rep etc...)!! I was crushed!
*** I did things for him that many women would reject, I gave him ALL of me in every way imaginable (going as far as having a 3-some, (several times with several women) to please him...I hated it...but did it because he said he would find it elsewhere if I didn't!!...I HATED IT!!!)! I WAS CRUSHED!!! SO... THIS IS WHAT I "FINALLY" DID AFTER HIS LAST CHEATING ESCAPADE ( what man cheats when he had all that?)>>>I was DONE...SAD, DEPRESSED, LOW SELF ESTEEM..you name it!
....I ended it! Told him to go F off!
....I called my GYNO...had an STD exam...sent the bill to his JOB (he is a well known official and lucky for him my tests came back fine).
....I then started dating my BOSS!! (out of spite) Keep in mind...I've been faithful to him for the whole duration of our relationship! (He and I both have Ex wife/husband. My children are more grown than his...He was still hooked on his ex wife (calling her in the middle of the night after having sex with me) plus cheating when dating me! My ex happened to be a deputy that cheated which his infidelity taught me how to catch a cheater...which I had done many times in this case.. (my ex got his mistress pregnant).
....I stopped taking his calls, acted like I hated him (deep down I was in such pain...I loved him more than my kids father (the deputy).
....I got calls from his friends, family telling me he is depressed and asking me to take him back...I would tell them to tell him to "Drop Dead"!
*****Keep in mind....This is the first time in all the years that we dated that I actually left/dumped him for a period of 6 months as apposed to as day or two AND I was FIRM!!I had HAD IT!!(Thank god I lived alone)***
This is what he did:...
....He stalked me... (sit outside my house, call 35xs+ a day and have his family call and try to guilt me into taking him back...(same family that hooked him up with skanks knowing he was with me) , show up at my job, have friends drive by etc..)
....He threatened to kill himself (to which I gave him directions on how to accurately do so).
....He FINALLY came clean with his family and friends about all he had done (he made them think I was a stalking *****, in other words...he lied to them saying I was stalking him when he was cheating to cover his dogging).

ICE BREAKER!
....I knew he was sitting in the parking lot of my job watching me come and go...driving by my house...calling...etc...
....SO....I asked my "BOSS" who I was dating (after 3 mo. of ending it) for a ride into work because my car wouldn't start. This was about the 5th month of me leaving "him". I had a feeling he was sitting in the parking lot waiting for me ( His suicide threats became increasingly bad). SURE ENOUGH!! He was there! He saw me in my bosses car (my bosses children in back seat). He jumped out of his truck...proceeded to the car, I jumped out, yelled to my boss to leave (he had no clue wth was happening)...I headed toward the door into work and got CUT OFF by "him" calling me a "*****, loser, pig, dumpy, ugly," etc.. I then turned to him and said...
" I hear you and see you...I've been hearing you and seeing you for many years....NOW you hear me and see me...The shaking your feeling in your body, the nausea, the feeling of your heart breaking apart, the shock of seeing me with someone else, the feeling of loss and rejection???!!!. I then looked into his eyes as he shook and had tears in his eyes and said....WELL....That's how "YOU" made me feel many times for many years!!! (He never experienced that with...I was always chasing and loving him...he took me for granted). He was told to leave the property by the business owners which was another humiliation to which I suffered when he lied to friends and family about me... He was now feeling the same humiliation he put me through for many years...I felt bad for him but at the same time I felt vindicated and I finally found the strength to be a strong, positive, done with A-holes! I GREW BALLS!!!*1 I believe in KARMA...
NOW>>>
Shortly after I finally met with him to discuss his obsession with getting back together... I sold my home and had the cash in hand...I gave him an ultimatum...you either grow a set, settle down (he is 8 years older) and make a life with me...OR I take the money, buy a home close to work OR take the money and move to SC where my son is...HE CHOSE ME! he begged me to stay...I TOOK ANOTHER FINAL CHANCE...( house in my name of course).
I bought a home, moved in, he moved in...a year later he asked me to marry him, I said YES and we were married in Florida, 4 years ago!
...Yes I forgave again...Its different living together, plus...The house is in my name!! lol...all kidding aside...we get along so much better being together than apart!! 
..*Sometimes a BIG SLAP in the face...Or Wake UP CALL is all you need for them to realize a good woman...BUT>>.DO NOT WAIT 11 years to do it!~!! I hurt for many years when all I had to do keep my happiness in check from day !!! 
****My first marriage was abusive (emotional and physical) and I was conditioned to put up with abuse...NIP it in the bud at first episode...I wish I had...***
We are now going on !^ years together...ups and downs...He is my best friend, he still pisses me off and annoys me...BUT...We are in love more than ever!..
I still have that fear he will cheat again etc...but...I can not control what he does...I can only control how I deal with it...He knows NOW that he used his last chance...his behavior made me stronger...Not very many women would put up with what I did...BUT I knew the first time I saw him and told my fiend ...Look at him...He is PERFECT..this guy is all I dreamed of and I will marry him one day...she laughed at me....she laughed HARD...why??? Because he and I were just about to meet for the first time when I said that...<3

NOTE: The 2nd year of our relationship I cough him in bed with another woman. That moment, SOMEHOW seemed to have been the WORST in my life ( I had suffered worse pain). I think it was because I was dealing with my divorce, custody and the feeling of rejection, abuse and loss at the same time. I tried killing myself...I overdosed on alcohol, effexor, zoloft, seroquel and Ambien...before they changed to CR... My friend Joe found me...I was transported with sheriffs, EMS, DRs, and surgeons because I died 3xs, had very low BP, next to nothing respiratory movement, stiffening of joints (first stages of renal failure), and seizures. I remember waking up in ER seeing a security guard sitting next to me calling to nurses while I was seizing...no family or friends...just a guard who looked like he really cared, sitting in a folding chair next to my gurney and I caught a glimpse of the nurse turning me and playing with the buttons on my heart monitor..and I was out again...for 5 days... I remember asking the Dr why my jaw hurt so bad and he said it was from the seizures I had and then saying to myself...OH WELL...and cried myself to sleep on the psych ward...I slept for days.. after the first week of being on "watch" a case worker came in to help me with medical being the two jobs I had did not have medical. She was a worker from DSS. I barely remember the meeting (I was on psych ward then I do remember the Dr but wont give his name being he had passed on.). All I remember was...Its not often an OC Medicaid worker goes to the hospital to help someone get medical assistance. It was a rare occurrence. I was told later on that the hospital didn't expect me to live and they needed to somehow have my hospital expenses paid...they really had no clue who my family was being I was alone. I do remember waking up to a beautiful bouquet of flowers next to my bed some days later...NO card attached. No one knew who sent them...a part of me hoped it was him...I found out it wasn't and It was sent anonymously. I knew if it was him...He would let it be known. I was released to go home with an appointment to follow up with DSS for out patient therapy and medical assistance. On my first appointment after I got out of the "Hospital" I went to me scheduled appointment (made by my psych Dr.) I was called into a small cubical by a woman with a huge greeting smile...I asked myself..."why is she so happy to have an appointment with a 40 year old woman who just tried killing herself and looks like a train hit her...She sat me down and said..."You look so much better than I last saw you"...I was floored...I had no clue who she was nor did I know what she was talking bout. She then said " You don't remember me do you"...I said..."I'm so sorry, I do not". She then said..." I came to the hospital to interview you for medicaid and medicare, your doctors declared you as incapacitated or not functioning, when I saw you I had never seen anyone so sad, depressed and so broken that I had broke down in tears during the interview with you...I sent you flowers the next day to be placed by your bedside in hopes to bring some light into your life...I knew then that I had the strengthen to over come the worst of the worst. 
***Once I got out, in therapy, and move on with my life, I did hear from him, still saw him but not as intense. I decided to get my degree. I enrolled in FLCC, I earned my High School Diploma (NOT GED) I took HS classes with college courses through the Ability to Benefit Course offered at FLCC for selective applicants (which was hard to get into without a high score on the entrance exam. (I quit school at 8th grade but scored a 1.5 on my SATs which was consistent with a first year college student). They were impressed. I was the first to graduate with a High school Diploma and an Associates Degree in this program. As a matter of fact NY Senator Charles "Chuck" Schumer handed me my degree. Unfortunately not very many could pass this exam to get into the Ability To Benefit Course and after a couple years from my graduation they dropped the course because the NYS Education Department refused to fund it being applicants couldn't pass the entrance exam...so disheartening, being I did public speaking on the topic for Adults who needed to finish their HS courses and seek a Degree at the same time. 
Business Administration 
*1- I was abused by family members at a very young age (8) into my adulthood (sexual, emotional and physical). When I experienced pain...it was 10xs worse than a "normal" person because I didn't know how to deal with it. I was diagnosed with PTSD, BPD, and RD (Rage Disorder- from years of abuse) abandonment, and loss. I over came most by DBT treatment...I hated medication so I learned on my own how to adjust to hardships in my life...it doesn't always work...so...if you know anyone who is struggling...hear them, see them, acknowledge them...help them! There is help...I did it on my own ( before they offered clinical OP treatment)...IT SUCKS!!! Don't let those you care about deal with these issues alone...THERE IS HOPE!!! HELP THEM!!! 
***If you took the time to read my post then I want to say THANK YOU!!! you clearly had a connection in one form or another to keep you reading until the end..
***I hold a special place in my heart for the DR who helped me and to the case worker who helped and gave me the will to fight...I wish I could thank the security guard who watched over me and alerted the nurses of my distress...


----------



## Purple Purse Wife

Google *"financial abuse"* or *"economic abuse,"* and then* C-PTSD,* and *"The Purple Purse." *This is where you're headed. You're halfway there already. Believe me, I've been trapped in an abusive marriage for the last twelve out of the 27 years I've been married to Mr. Hero-to-everyone-but-me. I don't leave because he's made it impossible for me to leave. Like a snake coiling around me, I never saw it happening until it was too late. *RUN!* Take your kids and pets and *RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN! *Do it secretly if necessary. If he discovers your plan, he will either kill you, or swear to you that he's changed and beg you to take him back. He will say _anything_ to get you to believe him. If you _do_ take him back, it will only get worse. Has he gotten physically violent yet? Narcissists *CAN'T* change. Ask any psychologist, psychiatrist or mental health worker. They are incapable of change. Look up "narcissist" on Pinterest. Does he fit those descriptions? You don't deserve this treatment, and neither do your children. 

*You MUST ALWAYS have some money and independence of your own. Transportation! Communication! Work you care about. Education for your future, and that of your kids. Friends that you see regularly. Hobbies or interests of your own. If you don't maintain those basic things for yourself, you're sunk.  For God's sake - RUN! NOW!*


----------

