# When the 5 Love Languages blows your mind...



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Disclaimer: We have not read the book. This is based on the online test. Also, H and I are not currently having major issues. I am just writing because I am very surprised and looking for general discussion. 

While we have a generally happy marriage, my biggest issue with my marriage is that I feel a major lack of emotional intimacy. My H is very closed off and doesn't talk much...I don't mean about *feelings* either (that's part of it too, but I get that most men don't do discussions about *feelings*). I mean about anything. I don't know what he does at work. I don't know what he wants to do with his life, what he wants for dinner tonight, anything....big or small. He just seems to have no need for these types of conversations. 

Shockingly, he is better at making friends than I am...I am a major introvert and it's getting much more pronounced as I get older. I dislike social situations with a bunch of people I don't know. Long time friends, fine. We've got lots of them. But H will be friendly and chatty around new people. Just not me! 

Anyway - just for fun we took the 5 love languages. I knew what mine were going to be before I got the results: 

1. Quality Time
2. Acts of Service
All ranked low 3. Words/Gifts/Touch

I assumed that H's would come out with Touch at the top and everything else way behind. 

I was wrong! 

We got the same results! Slightly different percentages on each but still the same with Quality Time being a front runner by a long shot and Acts a close second. 

How can this be? Did he copy my answers? (Kidding...we took the tests away from each other so he couldn't have)

His actions in our marriage do NOT correlate with these results. How can someone with QT as their top language be so stand offish and seemingly indifferent to spending time together?

I am thrown for a loop...


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

How does each of you define "quality time"?

What is his subjective experience during the kind of conversation you feel is lacking? In other words, does he feel safe opening up to you on those topics, or do your habitual responses make him feel in some way judged, threatened, cajoled, etc.? Do you listen well, or seize the opportunity to press an agenda? 

I may be off base, but since he likes being chatty with others I get the sense that his silence at home is protective of...something. You'll need to figure out what that something is, and how to defuse it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Disclaimer: We have not read the book. This is based on the online test. Also, H and I are not currently having major issues. I am just writing because I am very surprised and looking for general discussion.
> 
> While we have a generally happy marriage, my biggest issue with my marriage is that I feel a major lack of emotional intimacy. My H is very closed off and doesn't talk much...I don't mean about *feelings* either (that's part of it too, but I get that most men don't do discussions about *feelings*). I mean about anything. I don't know what he does at work. I don't know what he wants to do with his life, what he wants for dinner tonight, anything....big or small. He just seems to have no need for these types of conversations.
> 
> ...


*Dr. Smalley has an extensive course The Five Love Languages that poses questions so deeply and intently that it truly "separates the men from the boys" and the pretenders from the honest people!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And the book His Needs Her Needs covers the same territory but then provides questionnaires that let you get into exactly WHAT you want and don't want.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

It's been a while since we've crossed paths. I'd like to make some observations first, for context. 

You and your H are both really smart. And you are also highly self aware. 

I loved that story you told about the grill. When your H, put off buying tools he'd been saving up for to buy you a grill. You two had a plan, and in the plan it was time for him to get his tools. 

You know I'm guessing that your H considers you to be a great partner in terms of the 'business of family'. 

But here's the thing. You have some tough choices to make. Let's begin with the first one. Do you trust your H? It's a simple question really. Do you believe he answered the questions on the 5 LL test honestly? 

I believe that he did. I believe he WANTS to feel close to you. And I also believe that he has shut down around you for the following reasons. By the way this IS fixable, it just requires effort. 

You always have a viewpoint, and you often don't make space for an alternative viewpoint. This is a MUCH bigger issue than it might seem. 

Let me give you a real world example. In a way, I believe the emotional equivalent of the events below is well underway in your marriage. 

So here's the story of two person who both KNEW they were right. Their viewpoints were directly oppositional. One said X, the other adamantly insisted not X. Clearly one of them was wrong and the other was right. And this Kag, is exactly how that played out. 

Devon was driving home after dark when the bright lights from an oncoming vehicle made it hard for him to see the road. Believing the other driver had his 'brights on', Devon flashed his brights once, as they teach in driving school. 

Jon was driving a brand new vehicle with high intensity head lights 
set in 'normal mode', when an oncoming vehicle flashed their brights at him. He made a quick U turn, cranked up his official blue flashers and quickly pulled Devon over. 

What followed was a 5 minute conversation that was dominated by a single 'point of fact'. Devon was absolutely adamant that Jon had been running with his brights on. Jon was equally adamant that he hadn't. 

Based on all the evidence gathered after the fact the following statement appears to be the truth: 
- Jon did NOT have his brights on 
However
- His lights were blinding other drivers. Devon was the third person that night who had flashed their brights at Jon. (It's unclear whether this was solely a brightness issue, or also caused by misaligned lights)

So, while Jon was technically correct, from a practical standpoint Devon was equally right. 

During the course of this conversation neither of these gentlemen made room for the notion that the other might be correct. 

Devon became passively more uncooperative and Jon eventually became physically aggressive and instead of waiting for the backup 
car he had already summoned, pulled Devon from the car, tased him and......

At this point Jon's body camera went off. We only have his account for what transpired next as Devon didn't survive the 7 gunshot wounds he received during the course of their struggle. 

-------------
Kag,
Your H WANTS to connect with you. Like you two did at the start. I'm guessing that all those early stage stressful events - unplanned pregnancies - relentless financial stress - made you: more like yourself. 

Stress amplifies core traits. Your need to be right, became absolute. It's a control issue. Pretty normal stuff. 

In a way, your need to control got focused on K2. And that combined with your natural lack of affection, has produced a complete emotional withdrawal. 

FWIW: I believe you have a good heart and are a sincere and good person. And that you are completely self sabotaging.....





kag123 said:


> Disclaimer: We have not read the book. This is based on the online test. Also, H and I are not currently having major issues. I am just writing because I am very surprised and looking for general discussion.
> 
> While we have a generally happy marriage, my biggest issue with my marriage is that I feel a major lack of emotional intimacy. My H is very closed off and doesn't talk much...I don't mean about *feelings* either (that's part of it too, but I get that most men don't do discussions about *feelings*). I mean about anything. I don't know what he does at work. I don't know what he wants to do with his life, what he wants for dinner tonight, anything....big or small. He just seems to have no need for these types of conversations.
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

" pulled Devon from the car, tasted him and.."

I know you're a mod, but can I just (snicker) LOL? Sure you meant tased.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blond,

Thank you. At least on my type writer I KNEW that typos were of my creation. The auto correct mode on my iPad sometimes bites me.





Blondilocks said:


> " pulled Devon from the car, tasted him and.."
> 
> I know you're a mod, but can I just (snicker) LOL? Sure you meant tased.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Blond,
> 
> Thank you. At least on my type writer I KNEW that typos were of my creation. The auto correct mode on my iPad sometimes bites me.


*@MEM: Make no mistake about it! Those automatic correction devices always seem to bite us all in the a$$ at one time or another!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I will have to get my hands on the actual book to learn more about what the languages really mean. 

I do not have any reason to suspect he faked his results of the test. He didn't know my results until after he got his. 

It was overtly obvious the online test is designed to pit the different languages against each other and force you to choose one that you think is the better alternative, even when you don't like either of the choices. 

One funny thing...there was one particular question where is asked would you rather have intimate relations or get a gift from your spouse from their trip after they've been away. He was like, what a stupid question...who would choose a trinket from the airport? I laughed and told him I did.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Kag--it's a good idea from time to time to revisit the 5 LL's and re-examine them. People often find that they can change their primary language over time.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> 
> It's been a while since we've crossed paths. I'd like to make some observations first, for context.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your in depth reply. 

I guess you've been following me? 

I appreciate the compliments, but you truly lost me with your story. I actually laughed when I got to the part of pulling the gun...huh? 

I think my husband is a good person and does genuinely seek to be a good husband and father. I can't complain there. I just wish for a better connection and was shocked to see QT as his top language because to me, that means he too seeks that type of connection when his actions say otherwise. 

BTW we do spend a lot of time together. But a lot of it is spent doing separate activities in the same room. I.e. he's working at the table while I'm doing the dishes. He's watching the game and I'm on my phone. Perhaps this fills his need for QT?

He was also like this with everyone in his family. Especially his parents. His mom still tells stories about how closed off he was growing up and how she'd find out things about him years after the fact. For example: he did not tell his parents where he applied to college or that he even intended to go. (Comes from a blue collar family where college was not necessarily expected.) He was accepted and even scheduled his orientation, chose his dorm and got himself ready to go by buying his own supplies before he told his parents that he was going. This was age 17. Everyone was overjoyed for him and so happy. Why hide it?

This was typical. When I asked him why he'd hide stuff like that he just shrugs and says I dunno. 

I heard some of these stories when we dated and didn't know what to make of them. I was also young then and thought meh...I've hid things from my parents too, nbd. I didn't know how deeply "closed" he was. 

I swore it'd never happen to me because I wasn't his mom... it's not the same dynamic between husband and wife is what I told myself. 

Yet...here I am!

I also joined this forum a few years ago because I am interested (always have been) in my own self exploration so I always seeking to understand others and reflect back on how I can be a more productive member in my relationships. Still working toward that end.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
How do you think that comment was received?

In MC, the therapist told us: You can be 'right' or you can be 'close'. Make a choice. And then accept the consequences like a grownup. 




kag123 said:


> I will have to get my hands on the actual book to learn more about what the languages really mean.
> 
> I do not have any reason to suspect he faked his results of the test. He didn't know my results until after he got his.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> One funny thing...there was one particular question where is asked would you rather have intimate relations or get a gift from your spouse from their trip after they've been away. He was like, what a stupid question...who would choose a trinket from the airport? *I laughed and told him I did*.


Ouch, I wouldn't want to hear that.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

kag123 said:


> Disclaimer: We have not read the book. This is based on the online test.
> 
> .... my biggest issue with my marriage is that I feel a major lack of emotional intimacy. My H is very closed off and doesn't talk much...I.......He just seems to have no need for these types of conversations.
> 
> ...


I am a real fan of 5 LL and it helped me save my marriage. You really should get the book and read it to understand what it is trying to tell you. Again, it saved my marriage, once I understood things.

For example, my wife is an Act of Service followed by Quality Time person. I didn't think she loved me. Every night after she got home from work she prepared (or heated up a meal made on the weekend) a hot dinner for us to have. We ate dinner together with the TV off at a Table and Talked. That made her feel like she was expressing love and being cherished at the same time. She grew up in a home where "the wife made her husband a hot meal" each night as it was how a wife did wifely things.

When I felt my wife was pushing me away, because she wouldn't touch me or would not praise me, I worked later hours and sometimes I forgot to come home until the dinner was ruined. That made my wife feel very angry and made her push me away more. I got praise for completing assignment from coworkers so I was drawn to work and pushed away from my wife by my love languages. I rationalized it as being a good provider.

Now that I know that my wife is an Acts of Service and Quality Time person, is I get up first in the morning and bring her a cup of coffee (act of service) then I take my cup of coffee and lay down in bed with her as we both drink coffee and wake up. I then will talk to her about her day and share with her about my coming day (Quality Time). This way she starts the day feeling loved and cherished in her love languages.

At night if I am going to be later than a certain time, I call her to tell her when I will be home. This allows her to still cook dinner without ruining it to show her love. Then we talk over the dinner table to get some more quality time.

Assuming that you and your H are both Act of Service and Quality Time people, my assumption is that you don't recognize his acts of service as acts of service. That has happened with me and my wife. For example, when I started to do more of the housework, my wife didn't interpret that as an act of service on my part. When we talked about it, she said that was just doing my fair part of the choirs. 

You might want to talk to your husband about what Acts of Service that you do make him feel cherished as opposed to assuming that things you do as acts of service are interpreted as acts of service.
Or if you just can't you can run a trial and error science experiment on your marriage by trying different things until you find something that obviously works. That is how I figured out the coffee in the morning thing with talking together as we wake up. On the weekends it often leads to sex between us.:smile2:

If you and your H really have the same LL's then you should have a relatively easy time of really pleasing each other, as long as you both recognize what the other is doing and the motivation for the actions. 

Alternately, if you H really is mad at you or if he knows you are really mad at him, he may have withdrawn to the point that he doesn't put much effort into expressing his love for you, which because you share LL's would mean you wouldn't feel much love from him. 

If you believe in the MW Davis approach to Divorce Busting, then you need to change yourself in ways that make you seem different and more loving to him. That will allow him to feel loved and allow him to show you his love for you.

Good luck.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

And when it just blows...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> How do you think that comment was received?
> 
> In MC, the therapist told us: You can be 'right' or you can be 'close'. Make a choice. And then accept the consequences like a grownup.


The whole being right thing is where you are losing me. 

My point in sharing the commentary of the gift vs. sex was to point out how different we are. 

He knows it and was shocked that we got the same results on the test as well. 

He laughed with me when I told him I was one of those people who picked the gift over the sex. He could've guessed it would be me and our whole exchange was light hearted and facetious. 

I don't see anything in that exchange where it was a matter of being right or wrong.

Clearly I'm missing something.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> How do you think that comment was received?
> 
> In MC, the therapist told us: You can be 'right' or you can be 'close'. Make a choice. And then accept the consequences like a grownup.


What is the problem with her answer?

Dug and I are honest with each other, and we are also close.

How can you be close if you are not transparent?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Ouch, I wouldn't want to hear that.


You wouldn't want to hear it....yet if it were true, would you prefer to pretend the glaring difference between you and your spouse did not exist?

ETA: Another thing I realize is a sticking point a lot, is that there is a tendency to project everything that is said as a personal jab. When I say I'd rather do (blank) than have sex, it means have sex period. At all. Not have sex with HUSBAND. That implies that if it were a different person placed in front of me, I'd pounce. And that's not the case at all. I see a lot of men who tend to interpret this way.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> If you believe in the MW Davis approach to Divorce Busting, then you need to change yourself in ways that make you seem different and more loving to him. That will allow him to feel loved and allow him to show you his love for you.


I am not familiar with the book Divorce Busting...but, you nailed it. 

This was my true purpose for creating the thread. I am here at TAM to learn about ME and how I can grow into a better wife for my husband. 

So I'm throwing myself on the altar of TAM.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I appreciate your in depth reply.
> 
> I guess you've been following me?
> 
> ...


If he's always been like this, that kind of stuff does probably mean Quality Time to him. He's sharing his space with you, being his natural _self _(not the self he puts on with outsiders). That can be the most intimate space to someone who isn't a talker. He probably also takes comfort in and enjoys your presence, whether you are talking or not.

I haven't read 5LL, but I would think any of these books and tests and results are best at kicking off a good discussion with your spouse. Did you two spend much time talking about the results and how you interpret them? 

Also, do you think it might be easier for him to communicate with you by writing rather than talking? Sometimes it's easier to communicate through email, because you can each have time to think about what the other person is saying and formulate your own thoughts better.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
I really am trying to be helpful. I guess I'm confused - that you're confused by my posts. The post below is from a while back but this is pretty 'core' stuff. So it's hard to change. 


----------------
Husband and I have issues. Biggest issue by far is communication...I am a talker, he is NOT. Often when I try to have any conversations with him, no matter how diplomatic I try to be, he shuts me out and refuses to respond and will leave the room.

We are in the middle of a big fight at the moment, and I pushed him very hard last night to tell me what he thinks. I got the feeling that he was holding back because he knew I wouldn't like what he had to say and so I told him to say whatever he wants, don't hold back, I can take it. I know a lot of people say that and don't mean it, but I am honest to the point of being brutal and want the same response from him.

So he did tell me a few things. My main feeling is relief - finally he said something!! But I would love some unbiased opinions on these things, how do you fix these traits in yourself, how do you make your spouse happier.

This is what he said:

1. I am overly critical of everything he does. I make him feel like he cannot do anything right and he cannot live up to my standards. I can see that...I hold everyone to very high standards. I hold myself to even higher standards. I have always been that way. I have trouble letting go of peoples mistakes, to me mistakes = carelessness, and if you had a better work ethic you wouldn't be prone to mistakes. I realize this is harsh and not a loving way to treat someone. I would like to change this about myself but don't know how.

2. I think I am always right and always know the best way to do something. I am not open to letting him give input on things and when he does get a chance to do something I find a flaw in it (see #1). I see this too. I do think that I know best 99% of the time. I put a lot of thought and research into every decision I make and never feel like I am going into something uneducated. My husband is more open to trying a bunch of things sand if they don't work, oh well, try something else. I feel this shows lack of planning and forethought and bothers me a lot. I realize this makes me pretty annoying and impossible to live with.

3. I don't give him basic affection, like hugs, kisses, cuddling. I do want to have sex with him and will initiate sex, but beyond those times I am just not a touchy-feely person. This is nothing to do with him really, I have always been that way. I just like having my personal space. I have heard this complaint from past boyfriends too. I don't know how to fix it. Being affectionate doesn't come natural to me, I have to basically write myself a note to remind myself to do it.






kag123 said:


> The whole being right thing is where you are losing me.
> 
> My point in sharing the commentary of the gift vs. sex was to point out how different we are.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kag, try this. Print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from His Needs Her needs. Fill those out. 

Then compare the results to the Love Languages quiz. 

It might help you pinpoint what is REALLY going on between you two.

One thing you'd learn from HNHN is that men's top 3 emotional needs (love languages) are almost always sex, admiration, and fun, with affection a close fourth and often commingled with sex. The comment MEM copied shows a man who thinks you DON'T admire him, DON'T want to touch him, and you make him feel bad. All 3 top ENs, blown.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html

And fwiw, of all the men I've seen leave a marriage, this one thing is usually the one most common reason. Even above not getting enough sex. They simply MUST know that their wife admires and wants them.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> I really am trying to be helpful. I guess I'm confused - that you're confused by my posts. The post below is from a while back but this is pretty 'core' stuff. So it's hard to change.
> 
> 
> ...


OK yes. Now I understand your background. I don't remember the exact thread that was from. I didn't review the history of what I've written on this forum before I started this thread so I had forgotten. 

So...given this background, I find it hard to believe I am with a man that rates quality time high on his list. 

He clearly does not enjoy spending time with me, per the above. If he finds me critical and generally unpleasant in nature per previous comments, how could he choose to be with me? KWIM? We aren't here holding each other at gun point. So what keeps him around?

And all his focus on affection and sex in the past...and touch is at the bottom of his list? I knew touch was dead last on mine...didn't need the test to tell me that. But to see it low on his...really surprised.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I did the exact same thing with my college applications--I did tell my parents where I was going before I started packing but I paid for all of my application fees myself and carefully monitored the mail so that I could have the time and space to make a decision without any pressure.
> 
> :grin2: I also have QT as my top LL and yes, I do "fill up" a lot simply by having my husband close to me so I can talk while we are doing separate things. Basically, I find his presence calming and entertaining and he has a great ability to help me organize my thoughts simply by talking about other stuff.


This makes sense to me. Perhaps he's getting his QT needs met in different ways than I do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lots of different things keep people in marriages. It's different for each person.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> If he's always been like this, that kind of stuff does probably mean Quality Time to him. He's sharing his space with you, being his natural _self _(not the self he puts on with outsiders). That can be the most intimate space to someone who isn't a talker. He probably also takes comfort in and enjoys your presence, whether you are talking or not.
> 
> I haven't read 5LL, but I would think any of these books and tests and results are best at kicking off a good discussion with your spouse. Did you two spend much time talking about the results and how you interpret them?
> 
> Also, do you think it might be easier for him to communicate with you by writing rather than talking? Sometimes it's easier to communicate through email, because you can each have time to think about what the other person is saying and formulate your own thoughts better.


Did it spark a discussion 》no. 

It's hard to explain to people on the outside how the dynamic goes between us. 

The whole conversation went something like this:

10am: Playing around on TAM during our morning coffee time, I saw someone linked the online LL test. I took it. Said nothing to H.

1pm: We needed to get some information about one of our kids school events. I had the info in my email. Told him to get on my phone and read the email. In checking my email, the LL website had apparently sent me an automated email about the test I took. He saw the title of the email (did not open it) and asked me what it was. I told him. No further discussion. Did not ask about my results. 

7pm: He hands me his phone that is open to the email of his LL results. I laughed and said oh wow, you looked this up and took it? How come? He says: Well if you took it, I wanted to see what my results were too. So I opened my email and we swapped phones and each read the others results. 

We laughed about having the same results. He commented about the one strange question sex vs. airport trinket gift. I made the comment which I shared here. We both laughed. 

He walked away to do something else. No further discussion. 

That's pretty typical for us.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

So you didn't try to engage him in conversation further? Why didn't you ask him the things you're asking here and want to understand? 

What does Quality Time mean to you? 
How would you like to spend time with me? 
Would you like to do x, y or z with me?

By deciding on his own to take the test, I think he showed he was open to trying to understand each other better and to having that conversation. But it sounds like you didn't ask what you wanted to know?

You can still ask! "I was thinking about those 5LL quizzes we took. I'm interested in what Quality Time means to you and what you think of as Quality Time."


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I didn't ask because I feel that it is walking into a mine field at times. 

But you are right. I need to ask. I came here just out of initial shock that two spouses could have the same LL results and not even know it. 

Given the history that MEM quoted, you can see that my H has told me that he finds me harsh and hard to talk to. 

There is nothing in this world that I want more than for him to be more open with me. There is so much about him that I do not know because he shares nothing. 

I do not find myself that way ON THE WHOLE. There are definitely times when I've lost my patience or pushed too hard. It is incredibly difficult to try to get information from someone as closed off as my H. But nonetheless, if he perceives me that way there must be some truth to it. And I own that. But because I cannot tell what he perceives to be harsh vs acceptable, I try to keep conversations at surface level as much as possible. Trying to keep things "fun" and light and make sure they don't get tense. It's part of me sincerely trying to change my own behavior. 

I don't know where his threshold is and what closes him off, so I am treading on eggshells and trying to make it safe for him to be more open with me. Because I have no sense of my own behavior and when I've crossed the line, I just assume literally anything could be forbidden territory and cause damage and try to guard against hurting him further.

In the past any time I have tried a fact finding mission in relation to bridging the gap between us (how differently we must perceive things to have the same LL results yet I am still unsatisfied is a good example), it has been like a vault door slamming in my face how quickly he shuts it down and walks away. Even when my intentions are good and I try hard to keep it light and happy in tone. Soo.... I don't know?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Do you think a therapists office could be a place where you can learn how to communicate better with each other? It could be that "safe" place to talk openly and maybe you can learn where his threshold is, and he can learn to tell you his thoughts so you don't have to walk on eggshells.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

I don't know why his desire for touch, affection and sex has dropped to 'bottom of his list'. 

If you'd like, I'll try and work through this process with you. The most difficult aspect of it isn't whether or not your style is honest - because it is. Or whether you are technically correct in a given situation - most of the time I'd wager you are.

The real question is whether or not - these interactions - mostly feel bad for K2. 

FWIW: I'm very honest with M2. Very honest. Just happen to do it in a manner that is easily processed by her. 




kag123 said:


> OK yes. Now I understand your background. I don't remember the exact thread that was from. I didn't review the history of what I've written on this forum before I started this thread so I had forgotten.
> 
> So...given this background, I find it hard to believe I am with a man that rates quality time high on his list.
> 
> ...


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks MEM, that additional background answers my question in the first response. Sounds like K2 has a "bunker mentality" when it comes to these conversations...he doesn't regard them as safe ground. He's chatty with newcomers at parties because they don't threaten him.

K, after your big fight, did you make any adjustments after learning he viewed you as an overbearing know-it-all and a harsh critic reluctant to forgive mistakes? Or did you decide you knew best once again and carry on as normal? 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I have always through out our relationship sought to be a better wife. 

It is difficult when you have a partner that offers zero feedback on a normal basis. A lot of the retooling to make things better comes from pure guesswork on my end. 

Occasionally in rare moments of explosion, he will offer me the gems of how he views me. Which is apparently one of the times that I came here to share with TAM, as MEM quoted it. I don't remember the date of the quote that he shared here. To me, it is unfortunate that the feedback comes in the form of a fight or not at all. I can take raw honesty and would much prefer he tell me on a regular basis if I am doing something wrong. Instead I am often left to wander down a path unchecked, not really sure how it is affecting him, until perhaps one day I step into a land mine and we fight. That's really the only time I know what he's thinking. 

However - anytime I am offered criticism I take it and try to fix whatever I can to make it better for him. I do love him after all. I hope he knows that. So re: have I made changes? I think I have. Are they good enough or recognized by him? I have no idea. 

When you are offered absolutely no feedback, how can you tell what the other person thinks or feels?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Kag, have you read Willard Harley's book _Lovebusters_? If not, I highly recommend it. It lays out the most common types of behaviors that are damaging to relationships and destroy love. Since your husband is reluctant to provide feedback to you, it might be good to just have a list of things that are common relationship killers so you can work on recognizing and eliminating any of those you may be guilty of. 

By the way, if you go that route, I strongly suggest that you do not try to get him to read with you or fill out any questionnaires or do any of the suggested work with you. At least not right now. He's likely to feel further attacked by you trying to "educate" him, and your attempting to do so is the "lovebuster" called disrespectful judgment. Just read the material yourself, and do as much work as you can to clean up your side of the street. If you can do that, you may be able to make enough of a difference for him to feel safer in providing you some additional feedback in future.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think most of the effective advice is going to be showing you how you can become the emotional leader in the relationship, kag. You can learn how to earn your husband's trust, and make it feel safe for him to be open with you.

You may want to look up active listening. It is a way of encouraging deep communication, which is often helpful in resolving conflict.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan is right. Do this on your own and let him start to FEEL the changes in the atmosphere. 

And as far as fights go, it takes two to fight. You're here learning, so lesson #1: keep your mouth closed when you feel yourself saying something you wouldn't want anyone saying to YOU. You don't have to participate in fights. You don't have to be proved right. The stronger person doesn't NEED to be right.

I heard a TED talk last night appropriate to this. I HIGHLY recommend you listen - only a few minutes:
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_steindl_rast_want_to_be_happy_be_grateful?language=en


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Could it be that touch and affection moved down his list because it's not important to you? Eventually that will "rub off" on him. How often do you give him praise for things he does well? I'm guessing a lot of your communications end with him being "wrong" and he's simply avoiding talking at all.


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## luvinhim (Jun 25, 2014)

Hi Kag, I have read your post and want to offer a little insight to you if that is okay.

I am highlighting the things you said and my reply:



This is what he said:

1. *I am overly critical of everything he does. I make him feel like he cannot do anything right and he cannot live up to my standards. I can see that...I hold everyone to very high standards*. 

_I am your husband in this scenario, my husband is the exact same way toward me. Can I tell you how dishearting this is to your husband and to me. It makes a spouse draw away from you and seek affirmation from other people. In my case I get my praises from the people i work with and my children. _

2.* I think I am always right and always know the best way to do something. I am not open to letting him give input on things and when he does get a chance to do something I find a flaw in it (see #1). I see this too. I do think that I know best 99% of the time. I put a lot of thought and research into every decision I make and never feel like I am going into something uneducated. My husband is more open to trying a bunch of things sand if they don't work, oh well, try something else. I feel this shows lack of planning and forethought and bothers me a lot. I realize this makes me pretty annoying and impossible to live with.*

_Again I see myself as your husband in this scenario. I am open to trying a bunch of things and if they do not work oh well I will try something else. My husband is you, he does his research and will then make a decision on what he feel is the right way to do something. I do not criticize him on the way he is. If he wants to do the leg work on the project and then complete so be it. Why cant he understand that and give me the freedom to be myself and make my mistakes and find my own way of doing something. Needless to say we no longer do project together. It is sad really.
_

_Kag, I guess what I am trying to say is your husband is not safe with you. I do not talk deeply with my husband. I cannot trust him. On one occassion after making love to him i felt close enough to share some deep intimate thoughts with him. Guess what? During an argument he threw it back in my face. Today after all the years we have been married, I will not share my deep thought with him. Our conversations are so shallow and it bothers him now. He often ask me why we are not close and I only shake my head. I have no answer for him, but he is feeling the affects of having to always be right, being overly critical. _

Maybe it is not too late for you to turn it around, Find a way to make him feel safe and cherised, maybe he will open up to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't talk to my husband at ALL. Unless I have to, and then only to relay needed information. He NEVER hears anything personal from me. Why? Because anything I've ever said he has either negated, disputed, contradicted, or else told me he had it worse than me. Even when I've felt like killing myself and I'm bawling my eyes out and felt hopeless, he'd reply with 'well, do you think _I_ have it any better?' Huh?

Needless to say, he lost the right to be my best friend decades ago. And yes, I've told him why. And he only NOW, when he sees I'm finally one foot out the door, is trying to actively NOT criticize, NOT be right all the time, NOT fail to listen or understand. But even if he changed today 100%, it would take me years to trust that that change is permanent.

Nobody thinks you're a bad person, and we can SEE that you're trying to do the right thing. We just recognize the personality type, and are trying to help you see how destructive that type of personality is to a relationship. It's gonna take a long time for him to even try to be honest with you, and it will never happen until he sees YOU changing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why do you not become the emotional leader in your relationship, Turnera?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> You wouldn't want to hear it....yet if it were true, would you prefer to pretend the glaring difference between you and your spouse did not exist?
> 
> ETA: Another thing I realize is a sticking point a lot, is that there is a tendency to project everything that is said as a personal jab. When I say I'd rather do (blank) than have sex, it means have sex period. At all. Not have sex with HUSBAND. That implies that if it were a different person placed in front of me, I'd pounce. And that's not the case at all. I see a lot of men who tend to interpret this way.


I did take that as just sex, not that there was something especially distasteful about sex with your husband.

I could accept as "I can have sex with you anytime, I can't always get gifts", but I don't think you meant it that way. 

I'm not a "Total Honesty" guy. If my wife said that sex with me wasn't anything special, I'd stop having sex with her. I think you've mentioned that your husband rarely initiates; if so, I now understand why that might be. 

I'm a bit aspy, you seem the same. Some things are better left unsaid.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> OK yes. Now I understand your background. I don't remember the exact thread that was from. I didn't review the history of what I've written on this forum before I started this thread so I had forgotten.
> 
> So...given this background, I find it hard to believe I am with a man that rates quality time high on his list.
> 
> ...


I think your husband is very vulnerable about exposing himself to others.

I think he'd LOVE to be able to be vulnerable to you.

I think he's scared to death of what would happen if he did that.

So, he holds it all in (and he can live with that, he's been doing it his entire life).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

luvinhim said:


> *Kag, I guess what I am trying to say is your husband is not safe with you. I do not talk deeply with my husband. I cannot trust him*.


That


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> 
> I don't know why his desire for touch, affection and sex has dropped to 'bottom of his list'.


I think he's rational enough to put what he knows he can never have at the bottom of his list.

I've always wondered what it would be like to marry someone like myself. I think I'm seeing it here.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I am not familiar with the book Divorce Busting...but, you nailed it.
> 
> This was my true purpose for creating the thread. I am here at TAM to learn about ME and how I can grow into a better wife for my husband.
> 
> So I'm throwing myself on the altar of TAM.


MW Davis has a lot of great ideas. I suggest that you get her book. She pushes her phone coaches, but the book can be a great resource.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpqHnk6Dh0U


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I'll look over everyone's responses and digest. 

Why did he marry me if I'm so bad? And he's so scared of me? I have not changed. Always been this way. 

There's really almost nothing that I find hurtful or that gets a reaction out of me. I can take heaps of criticism and anger thrown my way and just stand there. I don't see it as a reason to hide myself or withdraw. So I cannot relate to anyone who withholds themself in fear. Fear of what? What is the worst that can happen? If things are that bad, you could always leave? 

Quick comment about fighting. I think some of you may have the impression that we fight often. We don't. Maybe once every 6 months if that. More often we do not speak about anything with each other. It goes both ways. Many years ago I shut myself off from him as well because it does me no good to talk and share with someone seemingly disinterested. We are great business partners though! Keep a house running like a tight ship! Just no intimacy.

I cycle through accepting the status quo, and thinking (but never saying) that life would be just about the same if I were single. I mean a relationship to me is really for the purpose of intimacy. If that's not present, what is the benefit? I can imagine he feels the same way! But I hang on because he hangs on and it makes me think he must have some reason to still be here. He must be getting something positive out of this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> I'll look over everyone's responses and digest.
> 
> Why did he marry me if I'm so bad? And he's so scared of me? I have not changed. Always been this way.


Now you're just feeling sorry for yourself. And defensive. 

I know it's hard to read such an onslaught. But I hope you will listen with an open mind.

Anyway, to answer your question, you are NOT bad, you are most likely a Type A personality and when partnered with someone who is NOT a Type A, over time, that other person gets subsumed, becomes less visible, feels less relevant, and gets resentful. It goes one incident at a time.

I'll give you some of my own examples. I'll be talking about my work and in the middle of a sentence, H will say 'have you seen where I put my watch?' I just felt a little teeny tiny bit of 'less important.' Or he'll say where should we eat dinner and I'll say 'anything but Chinese' and he'll pull up to a Chinese restaurant. I just felt a tiny bit less willing to give an opinion; why bother? Or he'll ask if he should wear the blue tie or the red tie and I'll say blue; you guess it, he picks the red. So I just decide - a little bit more - to stop giving opinions as I was just insulted.

I could name thousands of these teeny tiny little interactions we've had over the years. Each one of them is COMPLETELY innocuous and non harmful. But each time one happens, I become 'this' much less connected to him. Less safe. Less willing to communicate. None of these make my H a bad person; just Type A.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Now you're just feeling sorry for yourself. And defensive.
> 
> I know it's hard to read such an onslaught. But I hope you will listen with an open mind.
> 
> ...


OK but all of those examples?

They don't happen in my relationship. 

There are no inputs and no conversation. I'm not exaggerating here. 

There is no talk about what to wear. He gets dressed and buys his own clothes. I do the same. We show up at the front door dressed without input from the other. 

No talk about where to eat. Kids pick most times or we go to whatever is closest to where we are. I cook 99% of the time before he gets home. I learned on day 1 of living together not to ask what do you want me to cook because there is no answer. Shrug and I dunno is all I get. 

I buy all the food. Same food every week. He takes the same lunch every day. He never changes it. No input there. 

Big decisions like jobs? He came home one day and told me he had a new job. I did not even know he applied. Dead serious. Our whole life turned upside down then...not fun. I almost ended our marriage over that major lack of shared information. 

I get promotions at work and he finds out about them when the automatic deposit amount goes up the next check. We just don't talk about those things. 

There has never been any talk about what he does at work. I know his job title and his bosses name by accident because he slipped one time and told me. I do not know his coworkers names. What projects he works on. What his work hours are. He comes home at all different times. He doesn't tell me when I do ask so I don't ask. Everything is a shrug and an I dunno. I don't talk about my life either with him for that reason so he too has no idea what I do at work. 

Tell me that's not strange?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So how did you even date? You make it sound like he's a zombie. At SOME point he turned off. If you want to stay married, you will have to figure out why.

Those were MY examples. Ok? I tried to show you how it happened in MY marriage. If he has closed himself off from you there is a reason and almost always such reasons are direct results of things the partner does and that person experiences in a painful way. And you 'only' fight every six months? Seriously?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

When we dated we were long distance for 3 years. We saw each other once a month (occasionally went up to 3 months without seeing each other) and talked once a day via a single email for most of it. Occasionally a single 20 min phone call. We were both busy and it didn't matter much to us then. When we saw each other we talked but it was not indicative of what he was really like because we just went 4-6 weeks without seeing each other. We also were both big partiers then and always went out in large groups of friends and drank and bar hopped. No real one on one dating most of the time. 

Then he came home and we promptly moved in together. Both worked and I was still in school so we still saw each other very little. 

Then things started happening quickly. I got pregnant. He proposed. (Because I was pregnant? I'll never know.) We rushed the marriage. I lost my job so he picked up extra hours. I had pregnancy complications. Baby was born. I got a new job far away and started working long hours. Got pregnant again immediately. Second baby had health issues and needed major medical care when an infant. 

Long story. But we've never had a traditional relationship like anything I ever had prior to him. Everything has occurred under strange circumstances or stress. We work together well in business like settings. We are a good team under stress. Now things are getting more normal in our lives and there's more time to examine how we got here. And wonder how the heck it actually happened. 

I think long distance masked a lot of the things that would normally scare a person off. .

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I promise. 

If we met each other today, we would not get past the first few dates. I wouldn't be able to handle how closed he is.

When people see us together - friends, my parents - they ask me how it works. He does not talk to them either. They say surely he's a different person with you? Nope. Same guy. They ask how I make it work. I give them his canned response. Shrug and I dunno.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
You have plenty of commitment and sincerity. 

I don't know how you approach this stuff - but - I'll share a couple observations that might be helpful. 

Life has two discrete but related dimensions. One is the visible mechanics of what we do, and the second relates to the intangible - emotions and thoughts we have. 

Real intimacy requires vulnerability. It isn't realistic to expect vulnerability from a partner who sees you as harsh and judgemental. 

And then the lack of physical touch compounds the issue. 

This isn't about blame. It's about consequences. 

Remember how you felt that day at Home Depot when he sacrificed and bought you that grill. How you felt in that moment and the first few times you cooked with it. 

I am not being critical - just asking the question: In what situations do you put him first like that? 




kag123 said:


> I have always through out our relationship sought to be a better wife.
> 
> It is difficult when you have a partner that offers zero feedback on a normal basis. A lot of the retooling to make things better comes from pure guesswork on my end.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

If you were to sincerely ask me: in what situations do I put him first. I would answer you: almost all of them. Because literally every single decision that I make is laced with: how will this decision affect my husband and children. 

He works the same way. Which is why we are still together. I trust him implicitly to make the best business decision for the good of the family unit.

That does not provide for intimacy though. 

Perhaps I do not understand your question well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That makes a lot more sense.

You do sound incompatible. The only solution for staying together is to reach a compromise you can both deal with - him learning to communicate more (get outsid his comfort zone) and you learning how to be more ok with how he is. I really don't see this improving without counseling.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> That makes a lot more sense.
> 
> You do sound incompatible. The only solution for staying together is to reach a compromise you can both deal with - him learning to communicate more (get outsid his comfort zone) and you learning how to be more ok with how he is. I really don't see this improving without counseling.


Recently I've had more quiet time to reflect and think about just how incompatible we really are. 

Then we happened to take the LL test and I was shocked out of my seat to find out we had the same results. Just always assumed we'd get polar opposite results you know? 

So here I am. Rehashing stuff.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You really should read one of the books to get a better handle on why you're where you are.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

kag123 said:


> You wouldn't want to hear it....yet if it were true, would you prefer to pretend the glaring difference between you and your spouse did not exist?
> 
> ETA: Another thing I realize is a sticking point a lot, is that there is a tendency to project everything that is said as a personal jab. When I say I'd rather do (blank) than have sex, it means have sex period. At all. Not have sex with HUSBAND. That implies that if it were a different person placed in front of me, I'd pounce. And that's not the case at all. I see a lot of men who tend to interpret this way.



Most men want to be wanted by their spouse. To hear that a trinket is wanted more than sex is very hurtful. 

Your husband might have chuckled on the outside. The fact that he chuckled, might be a clue as to why he doesn't talk to you much. 

The less my wife shows interest in me sexually, the less I feel like being close to her.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Most men want to be wanted by their spouse. To hear that a trinket is wanted more than sex is very hurtful.
> 
> Your husband might have chuckled on the outside. The fact that he chuckled, might be a clue as to why he doesn't talk to you much.
> 
> The less my wife shows interest in me sexually, the less I feel like being close to her.


All I can say to that is...everyone is different?

I would assume your response means touch is your top LL?

His apparently isn't. So maybe not as important to him?

Also we are not sexless. I go out of my way a fair bit to make sure of that. I've written about that part before in other threads on S&M. So won't go into that here. 

Still don't see how my comment was so awful. I wore an outfit out to a party with him the other day and before we walked out the door he told me "that is literally the ugliest outfit I have ever seen, are you seriously wearing that?" 

I smiled, said "Sure am" and we got in the car and left. 

So it goes both ways? He could have chosen to keep his mouth shut then.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

BTW our wedding anniversary is this Sunday!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> OK but all of those examples?
> 
> They don't happen in my relationship.
> 
> ...


That's strange.

But, that's about how marriage to myself would go.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> There's really almost nothing that I find hurtful or that gets a reaction out of me. I can take heaps of criticism and anger thrown my way and just stand there. I don't see it as a reason to hide myself or withdraw. So I cannot relate to anyone who withholds themself in fear.


You are very unusual in this regard. Good, but rare. Must be good for work.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Why did he marry me if I'm so bad?


Actually, you're not bad. He was probably drawn to you as much because of who he was as who you were.

But you are both quite unusual.

It could be great if you could figure out how.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
I don't see any benefit in statements such as: That is the ugliest dress I've ever seen.

At one end of the spectrum is lying. At the other is absolute, childlike transparency. In the latter case I simply say whatever pops into my head without any filtering at all. 

We went through a phase where M2's feedback 'seemed' to be what I would call: Carefully timed criticism. 

She would say what she thought, when it was clearly too late for me to take any corrective action. Were her comments valid? Mostly they were. They simply produced this response from me: I don't understand why you are telling me this NOW. 

So his comment about the dress - if he knows you don't plan to change, or don't have time to change, what is his goal in telling you that? 

These situations are hard to assess externally. Was it the first time you wore that dress? First time he was seeing it? 

If I'm not looking to get M2 to DO something about a situation, I tend to be diplomatic. The more important I think something is, the more blunt my delivery gets. 




kag123 said:


> If you were to sincerely ask me: in what situations do I put him first. I would answer you: almost all of them. Because literally every single decision that I make is laced with: how will this decision affect my husband and children.
> 
> He works the same way. Which is why we are still together. I trust him implicitly to make the best business decision for the good of the family unit.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> OK but all of those examples?
> 
> They don't happen in my relationship.
> 
> ...


I've been thinking about this. The relationship you have morphed into is not healthy, obviously. It's also not one to sustain love. Your choices along the years to withdraw may have been all you could do at the time, given younger age, less experience, less wisdom. But you're older now, wiser, and you're here! - and can maybe approach things differently. 

How about going back to all these things you describe where the two of you turned into zombies and start looking for new responses/reactions/actions? So he dresses himself. What would happen if you threw him in the car and said 'we're going to the mall; I wanna be involved; I wanna see what kind of clothes you like, so the next time I'm out shopping, I'll know what to pick up for you'? A tiny bit of RE-bonding. What about not cooking UNTIL he gets home once a week and you and the kids being there, waiting at the door, and handing him a spatula and saying 'Come on! It's family spaghetti night!'?

Or setting up a jigsaw puzzle or a board game and putting away the computers for one night a week (gently taking his out of his hands), and creating some feel-good moments for the two of you?

Look for ways to take back those things that couples should be doing, tiny incremental shifts in the way you guys live. I'll bet he wants it just as much as you do, but he's not here learning how.


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