# My situation



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

Hello,
I joined here in May, but obviously didn't stick around. H and I have been married for 15 years this year, together for 18, good friends for long before that. I really thought I did my homework with him.

In April, I thought I hit my breaking point. I found this place, and joined, and contacted a lawyer. When they called me back to schedule a consult, I panicked, and went looking for a therapist instead. I was quite sure he'd never go to therapy, but I needed someone knowledgeable to talk to, and I figured if it wasn't a therapist, it would be a lawyer. I thought I'd start seeing her, then maybe convince my H to come too. I didn't tell him I started seeing a T. My search didn't take too long, and I hit it off immediately with the first one I met, a psychologist, mid 50's, female, and she's the type of person I was looking for. I started seeing her weekly, but as time went on, and she realized there's so much more to me than just my current marriage issues, she bumped me up to twice a week (in July I think). I've been seeing her twice a week since. 

Once it was clear to me that I would follow through with this, I told H, who blew up at me for "keeping" it from him. I didn't care, if it was the one thing I kept from him, that's not terrible.

H and I have been sleeping in separate rooms (on separate floors) for probably about two years. We rarely argue, but when we do, they're big 'uns. Ok, going to try to keep this as short as possible.

H is not an active father. We have a son, age 12. They barely know each other. H and HIS dad are extremely close, he's very family oriented with his own, but not with us. H and I never do anything together, nor do the three of us. I could never get him to just take a walk with me, or go for a family bike ride, rarely out for dinner, he works hard and is tired when he gets home. It's always just my son and I. Even for a weekend trip two years ago for his birthday to a waterpark, with an overnight stay. Couldn't get H to go. 

I should be counting my blessings, he isn't addicted to anything that would break up a marriage, he doesn't drink hardly at all, doesn't do drugs, doesn't hit me or make me feel concerned for my safety, he's not out sleeping around, etc etc. 

But the breaking point was him trying to take out an 18K$ loan behind my back. The bank called me two days before closing. I told them I would not sign, therefore he couldn't get the loan. Not only that, but he listed assets belonging to my family (farm equipment, property, etc) as ours. The stupid bank never followed up on that. I had to tell the guy on the phone we don't own ANY of those things. Before that, it was a $4,000 TV. He ordered it, and when he told me "oh BTW, new TV coming on Friday" I made him cancel that too. We do NOT HAVE this kind of money!!! We live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to pay the bills as it is. Since all this, he went out and got a new cell phone, and most recently a PS4, without my knowledge. He opened his own bank accounts, and automatically has money put in there thru direct deposit with every check. Money we NEED. I cringe whenever he's on the computer, wondering what he's looking up now. Wondering what's next. There's always something. He doesn't have any respect for me or he'd care about my input. Whenever I leave (to run an errand, whatever) I tell him where I'm going. He just leaves, never tells me. 

Recently he had a birthday, and our son and I had plans to take him out for dinner. His brother then invited him out for dinner, and H decided to go with his brother. We, my son and I, were not invited. Our son was devastated. Whenever we are in the car together (very rare), there is no talking. I try, can't get him to engage in conversation. It's the same when it's the three of us. I'm afraid our son is learning how to be a dad right now, through his own. I am 40 years old, and never knew mine, so I don't want to see history repeat itself.

There's nothing left between us anymore. I can't possibly trust him. Always wondering what he's looking up now. I'm to the point where he's making decisions as a single man, it's perhaps time for him to become one. But I'm scared.

There are other things....his hygiene. He doesn't brush his teeth (unless, back in the day when we did sleep in the same bed, he wanted sex, then he knew he had to shower and brush his teeth). He doesn't shower but maybe once every couple weeks. And he works a very physical, dirty job. I'm working with my therapist on where to go from here, but it's so hard. We have so many things going on in therapy...not just my H, but my abusive home life growing up. She thinks that may have something to do with the situation I'm in now. That I "settled" for him, because he was a safe choice at the time. It's possible. I need to protect myself financially, and in order to do that, I think a divorce is the only way. I would even consider getting a divorce, but continue living the way we are, if some things were to change (like his parenting role). My head is just spinning. I don't know where to go. I barely sleep. I don't eat much. I feel myself going downhill, because the stress I feel in my head, and the hurt I feel in my heart, is just so much.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you have a job? Or are you dependent on your husband financially?

Clearly you settled for him and put up with his neglect because he was 'safe'.. at least perhaps not as bad as your FOO.

It seems that for your the leap to leave is too big... like moving a mountain.

So perhaps if you make a plan of all the little things you need to do to file for divorce and leave.. then work the plan one or two things at a time.. one day you will wake up and have finished the list. Doing this reduces a HUGE task into smaller ones that are not so scary.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Find a way to improve your own life. Get a job, go to school, or do both. You keep viewing him as your partner even though that is not the case, because if you did not view him as such, you would have left long ago. You would have created an exit strategy so your life was secure. He is whom he is, and it is time you started looking after yourself and son.

You need to detach and move on. View him as your ex. Your son also needs therapy too. Separate finances, before he ruins you financially. You have to decide what is more important, you and your son, or him. You need to stop relying on him also. He proved to you that he is unreliable, so you have to plan around the reality of your life. I get that he is unreliable, and you cannot expect him to be.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

I work part time. I know I would need to get a full time job with benefits before I act. I was a stay at home mom and then got a job that revolved around our son's schedule (at the school district)when he got into school. I am lucky in that we do not own property together. The home we live in belongs to my family. So he would be the one to leave.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

So many views, so little feedback. I appreciate those who have replied!


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If you have a question, we can try to answer it. We can all sympathize with you, but that's not going to help fix your situation, aside from letting you know we know it sucks.

C


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

I don't really have a question. Just thought this would be a nice place to vent. I also thought, perhaps someone might tell me I'm overreacting. I've been trying to tell myself I am. My psychologist says I'm Underreacting. This is not an easy thing to consider,and the thought of it has consumed my life lately. 

I guess if I had a question, it would be what others did to prepare, if the decision had been made....but timing wasn't quite right.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

You are not overreacting. You and your son deserve better.

Start completely focusing on what would make a healthy life for you and your son. 

When you are ready let your husband know you are moving on.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Why would you a pay a professional if you didn't trust his or her opinion?


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

I do trust her opinion, but it is not her job to tell me what to do with my life. She will not tell me to divorce or stay with him, she's only there to support me in what I decide to do.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Before you act, create plans and goals for yourself. Make sure that these plans will help make your life sustainable. Just play it smart.

You need a strong social network that is all your own. It will help open doors of opportunity, and help you get a foot in somewhere. I have a few college professors as part of my social network, and it help me obtain a job.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Twice a week with a therapist for 7 months is A LOT. Something should have changed by now. And you have no money? Who's paying for the therapy?!

Usually I'm all about sending people to therapy but I think in your case (1) your therapist is stringing you along for the money and (2) what you SHOULD be doing is getting a real full-time job and putting THAT money and the money you were giving the therapist into a savings account so you can afford to move out. 

Your H married you to replace his mom. Period.

You and your son deserve better.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Based on what you've told us, I would say that you are underreacting.

Frankly, the estranged treatment of your son would be enough for me to call it a day. No child deserves a father who treats him the way you say your H does.

Add to this the fact that you have a roommate situation with a man who is hygiene-challenged & I think you have a solid case for divorce.

Ask yourself how you ideally see your life five years from now and then work toward that.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

At some point you need to sit down with him and give him the direct, cold truth of your situation. That you are not happy (and he probably isn't either), that the marriage absolutely will not survive at this rate, and you cannot continue to live this way. If he would like to see the marriage survive and is willing to make a 100% serious commitment to it, then you might be open to giving it a final chance, and be prepared to discuss what you think those steps should be. (Such as going to MC together, setting new boundaries for each of you, making plans together every other week, etc.) If he is not willing to do that, then you would like to ask him to talk to him about an amicable divorce arrangement as you have absolutely no desire to fight about it or see anyone be "ruined" in the end. 

Ultimately, it sounds like you need to deliver a wake up call to him like this. Often times in situations like yours, the husband is completely ignorant of how bad the marriage has become and how responsible he is for it. They don't think their wife will do anything about it, or don't feel like there is anything that can be done about it, but they also don't feel the pressure to try. Being awoken from that mentality, a guy can finally clearly understand what his choices are and what the consequences of each will be. THEN you can see if the marriage is really salvageable or not...


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

I don't work full time so that I work around our son's schedule. Always have. And I work for the school district, so I'm off when he is. We have no money because we're paying off CC debt. If not for that, we'd be able to put some away. We pay $150 PER WEEK for health insurance, taken out of hubby's paycheck every week, and that is paying for my therapy. No way could I afford her $150 per session fee. There is a lot more to my therapy than just this situation. I have serious depression, and PTSD, and I have a lot to work through. She has helped me, I've seen improvement in various areas of my life. But I can't undo 40 years of a certain thought pattern in a matter of months. 

Interesting, I'm replacing his mom? His mom did leave their dad for another man when he was a teen, he stayed with his dad. He and his dad are very close, whereas his mom, we only see once, maybe twice a year, and she lives 30 minutes away.

I had that talk with him early last summer, but it's my fault for not following through. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You do need a different job, preferably one with benefits. Make that a priority. Once you have the ability to take care of yourself, then having that frank conversation is possible. Keep floating resumes out there, and the first step to freedom is financial security. If you want to be a better mother, you need to be a healthy person for your son. Plus, teaching your child that independence in any relationship is healthy. Then you become beholden to no one if the time comes to leave. Don't be a martyr either, that would only teach your son to accept misery. If you want your son to experience a fulfilling life, you should do the same.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

musinglizzy said:


> I don't work full time so that I work around our son's schedule. Always have.


Your son is 12. He's old enough to be babysitting OTHER kids.

It's time to make a change.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

musinglizzy said:


> We pay $150 PER WEEK for health insurance, taken out of hubby's paycheck every week, and that is paying for my therapy. No way could I afford her $150 per session fee.


You're in the US? It's a fair bet that you should be shopping for other insurance, if he's making less than $60,000/year.



> Interesting, I'm replacing his mom? His mom did leave their dad for another man when he was a teen, he stayed with his dad. He and his dad are very close, whereas his mom, we only see once, maybe twice a year, and she lives 30 minutes away.


Well, there you go. He thinks women are worthless and to be ignored. Nothing you can do is going to change that perception.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

Yes, I'm in the Midwest. This is insurance through his work. Oh yeah, he's making well less than $60,000 a year.....


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

musinglizzy said:


> Yes, I'm in the Midwest. This is insurance through his work. Oh yeah, he's making well less than $60,000 a year.....


Here's what I found:
Unless your employer's coverage for an individual is considered unaffordable under the law (that is, *if your share of the premiums costs more than 9.5 percent of your household income*) or inadequate (*picking up less than 60 percent of the cost of covered benefits*), you aren't eligible for a government subsidy to help pay for your insurance. Subsidies are one of the things that can make plans on the new state exchanges appealing.

Subsidies in the form of tax credits are available even if you earn up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level, currently about $46,000 for an individual and $94,000 for a family of four. The subsidies vary based on income and the size of your family.



Read more: Obamacare Exchanges Vs. Employer Health Insurance | Bankrate.com 

https://www.healthcare.gov/income-and-household-information/
https://www.healthcare.gov/income-and-household-information/how-to-report/

I think I had my math wrong. But you can use these calculators to see if you can get insurance for less than $600/month.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Your son is learning from his dad, so get the boy into therapy now. I cannot imagine the pain a kid feels when not invited to go to his dad's birthday dinner--and a hundred other rejections. 

Please, please, please get him some help. He must have so much anger and sadness and that's why he has clammed up, too. 

God bless.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

I have talked to my therapist....she thinks he sounds quite well-adjusted, but I've talked to her about having him in therapy. Since hubby found out I'm in therapy (I told him, but not right away, and he initially blew up at me for "lying" to him), he's tried to do better. He still doesn't do things with him, but they at least talk in the house now...rather than walk right past each other. I don't know my father, so a good one was important to me for my kids, and I thought I did my homework well. I had to have a hysterectomy at 30, and I think that's about when the change happened. Hubby wanted more kids. So resentful towards the one we have? I don't know. I didn't just have one just to have one, it was for health reasons.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Was your husband there to witness the birth of your son? Men who witness the birth of their children, get a huge boost of oxytocin which helps greatly bond father and child, just like a mother giving birth will get a huge rush of oxytocin while giving birth. Could be the way your husband was raised also. If he did not have a close relationship with his father, he does not have the prerequisites to be a good father figure. He may have anger issues towards you, and since your son is a part of you, he may have anger towards that part. All I can say is that he is not the role model you want for your son. Plus, your son is still at an early age, and how your husband treats you, this might be normal behavior for him. For him, this is his view of normal, which can be unhealthy later on. You do not want your son to believe that a couple should behave in this manner.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

THanks Mr. Fisty.
We rarely argue, and never around our son, nor does he treat me outwardly with disrespect. Just to point that out. Also, (I know it was a long post) he has an insanely close relationship with his dad, and always has. And his siblings. I have asked him why he does not want that for his son, but get no answer.

Yes, he was there for the birth of our son, although it was a C-section. He was primary caretaker for a lot of the first year of his life, due to surgeries for me (related to my pregnancy). He was a good dad then, always playing with him, being silly, etc. 

I know he's missing sex....we rarely argue, but when we do, he always brings that up. I told him it seems there's nothing there between us, therefore I'm not going to have sex just to have it. He didn't say anything after that.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

Turnera, thanks for this. I will definitely be looking into it. I think our insurance is outrageous. It is nice we can go anywhere we want, and see anyone we want.... but still so expensive.


Read more: Obamacare Exchanges Vs. Employer Health Insurance | Bankrate.com 

https://www.healthcare.gov/income-and-household-information/
https://www.healthcare.gov/income-and-household-information/how-to-report/

I think I had my math wrong. But you can use these calculators to see if you can get insurance for less than $600/month.[/QUOTE]


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

musinglizzy said:


> I know he's missing sex....we rarely argue, but when we do, he always brings that up. I told him it seems there's nothing there between us, therefore I'm not going to have sex just to have it. He didn't say anything after that.


Hold on... I know you mentioned earlier on that his hygiene is an issue for you as it relates to sex, but that he had learned that if sex were an option, he needed to shower and all of that in advance. You mention that he's missing sex... which implies that you aren't having sex regularly?

If it hasn't been said yet, it needs to be well understood that a healthy sexual relationship is absolutely essential for most any happy marriage, especially for men. While women need to feel and provide love to be happy in a relationship, men equally need to feel respect, and they derive a great deal of that (if not the vast majority of it) from their wives when they have sex regularly. Speaking directly, most men can't be happy in a marriage in which the sexual relationship has stalled. The lack of which will absolutely impact all of the other areas of their life, especially the marriage and how they view/treat their wife. 

Unfortunately, it seems like most women seem to not understand this, or they feel like sex is optional in a relationship or only for when they feel fully loved and ready for it to be a "treat" for the husbands, etc. Then the marriages start to falter when the sex becomes less frequent, and women aren't sure why their husband's interests and treatment of them change. It's all connected, and less sex only makes the problem worse.

To clarify, I'm not saying that a wife should repeatedly engage sexually with a husband long term if he is ignoring her needs or worse, but I am saying that a woman can't ignore his essential needs and expect the relationship to somehow improve or not get worse. If she is fully committed to meeting his needs and he's ignoring hers, then that is a different sort of problem that needs to be addressed in different ways. I hope this makes sense.


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

No, we are not having sex. The relationship, the lack of trust, etc all went out the window before the sex stopped. He's questioned me about it in the past, and I told him that there doesn't appear to be a connection between us anymore, and without connection, I have no interest in sex. (you can probably tell I never was a one night stand sort of gal! LOL)


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

And yeah, I guess I'd say he's long been ignoring my needs...or wishes. Family dinners out, maybe go for a walk and hold my hand, just be loving. Talk. Communicate with me. Ask me how was my day....anything. Instead, he gets home from work, I ask him how his day was, and he usually just grunts. NO talk.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Totally sad, Musinglizzy! That's certainly no way to treat your wife, or your very own son!*


----------



## musinglizzy (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks arbitrator, I'm getting tired of nagging him to pay a little attention to our son.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Musinglizzy: Well... I hear what you are saying. In many ways sex should be the end result of a solid relationship with mutual trust, respect and love, and it can be difficult to want to engage sexually with someone when those elements aren't there with your spouse, especially for women it would seem. So I completely understand why you feel the way you do, not that you need my/our validation, but you do have it.

With that said... the problem here is that (especially for men) sex is an essential, *BASIC*, requirement for relational happiness. A lot of people (especially women it seems) have made the mistake of viewing it as a "want" or "optional" or worse, a "reward" or occasional "treat." It's not, it's a need, it's an absolute requirement. If the sexual relationship shuts down, the marriage is doomed from that point forward, you can bet the house on that. If you reach a point where you aren't willing to engage sexually with your spouse anymore, you might as well do both of you a favor and just let him/her know and file for divorce. Period.

So for most husbands and wives (certainly not all, everyone is different), this presents a serious dilemma. Wives often misunderstand the essential importance of sex in the marriage and decide that they will only put forth an effort sexually when their needs have been met. Those needs being met is what makes them feel that emotional "connection" that you mentioned. For men, this is akin to being told that they will not get their relational needs met until they are consistently meeting her needs first. Those are often things like increased communication, better listening, more quality time together, gifts, verbal/actionable signs of appreciation, etc. Just like women however, men feel most inclined to actively try to meet her relational needs when they feel that their own relational needs are being met.

So it's a catch-22 situation. If either spouse makes a decision/acknowledgement that they are unwilling to put forth the effort to meet their spouses relational needs, then the marriage is effectively over. With neither person feeling loved/respected by their spouse, the ONLY _possible_ way to save the marriage will be if one spouse or both spouses can make a concerted effort/decision to try to meet their spouses relational needs over a period of time (a couple months at least) without any expectation of reciprocation.

Otherwise, you're left with a wife saying "He won't talk to me, compliment me, spend time with me, etc., there is just no connection, so I won't be sexual with him." and a husband saying, "She can't respect me or what I do enough to engage sexually with me and I'm tired of the constant rejection, so why should I make an effort to meet her needs?" I'm not saying that either position is unjustified, but this is essentially a situation of both partners saying, "Nuh-uh, he/she needs to go first!" and if neither partner is willing to put forth that effort without an expectation of reciprocation for a while, then divorce is naturally inevitable.

To be clear, I'm not saying that this is the *only* step needed to save a marriage, as there are naturally lots of other steps that must often be taken based on the various issues involved in each individual relationship. I'm just saying that for a marriage to have a chance at being saved, the process involved is going to eventually have to include one or both spouses being willing to go out on a limb and commit to this effort without a guarantee that the effort will be returned. Often times, I believe that it is possible to slow or even rebound a marriage that is sliding downhill this way as well. As with anything else however, there are never any guarantees.


So for your situation in particular, I'm not simply saying that you need to go start having sex regularly with your husband and you'll save the marriage. If you're considering it but feel that doing so will cause you enormous emotional turmoil, then I would suggest that you sit down and explain that to him directly and start working through that emotional barrier with a counselor perhaps. Even the simple act of a wife acknowledging that some of their problems might be partially the result of her not respecting his needs (just as he hasn't met hers) and expressing a desire to do so, even if she's struggling and needs to address an emotional issue first, could do a world of good for him as far as validating his feelings. I could see that making him inclined to try to work on meeting your needs immediately in the mean time.

I'm also not saying that committing to meet/respect hsi needs will absolutely make him start returning the same effort towards you. If he is just a selfish *******, or takes you for granted, or has any number of other issues that prevent him from doing so, then your effort might very well be wasted. Those issues needs to be addressed separately. If he's a decent guy however who just became a little too complacent, took you for granted and got distracted by life, it could certainly wake him up.

I'm also not saying that your other concerns relating to sex aren't valid or should be ignored. So if you have an issue with his hygiene, then I would absolutely make that clear to him as being a roadblock to your willingness to engage with him sexually. My guess is that with some reinforcement, he'll get that issue addressed pretty quickly. If you feel like he's sexually selfish and does nothing to help you enjoy sex, then be up front about that with him. Again, if you're essentially offering to satisfy him but also indicating that he needs to make a better effort towards satisfying you if he would like repeat efforts, then he'll probably at least start making an effort pretty quickly. It also doesn't mean it needs to be every day, or that there aren't legitimate excuses for avoiding it occasionally.


I really don't want to sound judgmental here, because I'm certainly not blaming you for anything here. I'm sure you've given your marriage every effort you can muster. I just thought I saw a misconception in your view of sex in relationships, and how a new understanding of it's importance COULD potentially, maybe, help make things better, or at least be part of a solution. I will also add that for me, when my wife and I have any form of sexual interaction, I feel like I am on *Cloud Nine* afterwards. It's euphoric, and that feeling lasts for a couple days. In that time, I usually find myself extremely willing and desirous to make much increased efforts towards meeting my wife's emotional needs, trying to make her extra happy, doing extra little things for her whenever possible. I just feel like making her feel as loved as I feel respected. I'm as prone to becoming complacent and neglectful of my wife as the average man is I believe, but all it takes is one simple act to fuel me right up and want to treat her like a _queen_. I'm not saying it's her responsibility to meet my needs first, because I go first more often than not, but I am saying that it often is to her enormous advantage to do so.


Just my two cents, sorry for the length!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cdbaker said:


> I will also add that for me, when my wife and I have any form of sexual interaction, I feel like I am on *Cloud Nine* afterwards. It's euphoric, and that feeling lasts for a couple days.


And the woman married to the man who won't meet HER needs ends up, afterwards, feeling used, exploited, dirty, and shameful.



cdbaker said:


> In that time, I usually find myself extremely willing and desirous to make much increased efforts towards meeting my wife's emotional needs, trying to make her extra happy, doing extra little things for her whenever possible.


Would it were that easy or that most of the husbands of women who come here for the same reason all reacted that way. If they did, the women wouldn't have stopped having sex with them. So, what to do? Keep having sex, even when she has to grit her teeth to do it, even when he makes it clear he won't reciprocate, in the hopes that 'SOME' day, he will wake up that morning and say 'gee, I can't believe I've been such an ass, better change that'?

As to who should go first, at least a guy spending a few minutes in conversation, or refraining from belittling, or helping with the baby so she can take a bath once in a while doesn't end up feeling demoralized or humiliated from it.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> cdbaker said:
> 
> 
> > I will also add that for me, when my wife and I have any form of sexual interaction, I feel like I am on *Cloud Nine* afterwards. It's euphoric, and that feeling lasts for a couple days.
> ...


Yes I totally see what you're saying, and you are very correct. It certainly does happen where a woman can be left feeling used, exploited, dirty, etc. if she engages sexually with a guy who can't love/respect her enough to care for her needs and feelings in return. That's why I pointed out that this isn't a good idea if she feels it would cause enormous emotional turmoil, but someone in that situation could still have a good talk with her spouse explaining that, which still shows respect for his needs and a desire to meet them, but needs some help getting there.

For the next point, no, I think it is often very important for one or both spouses to make an effort to meet the needs of their spouse without expecting reciprocation *for a period of time* in an effort to reengage with their spouse and possibly retrigger trust/love/respect with him/her. It certainly CAN work when a marriage has fallen into a rut. As I said however, any number of other larger issues can certainly get in the way and simply working harder won't resolve them. That, and no one can be expected to put in that kind of effort without any reciprocation from their spouse forever, and they shouldn't have to. If you've made that commitment consistently for a good 1-3 months or so and are getting nothing back, nothing is changing, or it's getting even worse and talking about it isn't helping, then it is definitely time to change strategies or walk away.

I'm sorry if I was confusing in my rambling. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that anyone can solve all/most marriage problems by "working harder" or "committing more" or that they should do so indefinitely.


Regarding your thoughts on who should go first, it sounds like you are saying that a woman risking sex and the potential for feeling used, dirty, shameful, etc. afterwards is worse than a what a man goes through when he makes efforts towards her needs and is repeatedly rejected, disrespected, unappreciated, etc. I wouldn't remotely venture to suggest that one is worse than the other, but I do know that it hurts enormously to be in that position as well. In my view, aside from any other potential issues that I alluded to earlier that could be involved in the troubled marriage, both spouses should make a decision to recommit but if that is impossible, then one of them (either one) will need to or the marriage won't have a chance anyway, regardless of the other aforementioned possible issues.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

musinglizzy said:


> There are other things....his hygiene. *He doesn't brush his teeth*  (unless, back in the day when we did sleep in the same bed, he wanted sex, then he knew he had to shower and brush his teeth). *He doesn't shower but maybe once every couple weeks.*


This alone would send me packing for the nearest exit.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cdbaker said:


> Regarding your thoughts on who should go first, it sounds like you are saying that a woman risking sex and the potential for feeling used, dirty, shameful, etc. afterwards is worse than a what a man goes through when he makes efforts towards her needs and is repeatedly rejected, disrespected, unappreciated, etc. I wouldn't remotely venture to suggest that one is worse than the other, but I do know that it hurts enormously to be in that position as well. In my view, aside from any other potential issues that I alluded to earlier that could be involved in the troubled marriage, both spouses should make a decision to recommit but if that is impossible, then one of them (either one) will need to or the marriage won't have a chance anyway, regardless of the other aforementioned possible issues.


The way I understand it, she spent plenty of time 'going first,' giving him sex (provided he brushed his teeth and showered) for quite a long while, until she stopped having feelings for him. Nothing changed.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> The way I understand it, she spent plenty of time 'going first,' giving him sex (provided he brushed his teeth and showered) for quite a long while, until she stopped having feelings for him. Nothing changed.


Yep, she probably did. My comment was purely in response to noticing in one of her messages that they have no sexual relationship, but she still has hope for the marriage. I could see there being potential in her having a conversation with him about that, how she now recognizes that his needs aren't being met, which is happening because she's gone so long without her needs being met, despite trying to meet his for a long time with no reciprocity. While it's unlikely, maybe he could understand a basic, "You give some, you get some." message, lol.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And, as I said, it's not fair to just tell a woman put out so he'll want to meet your needs after he's hurt you to the level that you can't see having sex any more. Maybe it's just not something men can understand.

I get what you're saying. It worked for me - I met his needs even when he disgusted me, and he responded. But if you're a woman who has to feel attraction to be able to have sex, that is the ONE area that you can't just ask women to step it up. Any other need...sure. Just not that one.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> And, as I said, it's not fair to just tell a woman put out so he'll want to meet your needs after he's hurt you to the level that you can't see having sex any more. Maybe it's just not something men can understand.
> 
> I get what you're saying. It worked for me - I met his needs even when he disgusted me, and he responded. But if you're a woman who has to feel attraction to be able to have sex, that is the ONE area that you can't just ask women to step it up. Any other need...sure. Just not that one.


To take your statement and switch it to a male perspective, I could just as easily say, "It's not fair to just tell a man to put long term effort into romancing her, wining/dining her, buying her gifts, spending quality time with her, complimenting her, etc. after her consistent rejection has hurt you for so long that you just can't see yourself being willing to put yourself through that any longer.

You've got to understand that consistent rejection is the same thing as saying to a man, "You aren't worth it" or "I don't respect you enough" or "I don't care about you." Imagine if a wife were told on a regular basis by her husband that he just doesn't think she's worth his effort, that he just doesn't care about her. We just don't express our pain/hurt the way women do, instead we just get frustrated, quiet, angry, defensive, etc. If he does show a solid effort for her and is still consistently rejected, then she's just encouraging him to stop making the effort. I'm sure the same would hold true for her in a reverse scenario.

Maybe it's not something I can understand. I don't see how it is any more fair to expect a man to step up and meet her needs before she's willing to meet his, than it is to ask her to meet his before he'll be willing to meet hers. I don't see how his expectation of sex is any different or more difficult than her expectation of being wined, dined, conversed with, quality time spent with, having financial support, etc. Needs are needs, hers aren't any more special or unique or challenging than his are. If neither spouse is willing to step up first, all other possible issues aside, then the marriage is doomed anyway.


Sorry to detour from the thread topic, as what I am describing is important for all marriages, not necessarily a solution to this particular OP's scenario which probably has other elements in the way.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thousands of specialists will disagree with you that forcing a woman to have sex when she feels compelled not to is NOT THE SAME as just telling her to cook dinner and wash clothes. There is more to a woman having sex, in most cases, than just laying there.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Sorry, what I'm realizing is that I really went off on a tangent that cannot possibly make sense within this thread/context, and it's completely my mistake. I think the case/points I was making are still totally valid, but they just really don't make sense here, and I don't want the OP to misunderstand and think that I'm suggesting that she just "tough it out" and start having sex with her husband under the current situation, because there are so many other elements involved that I certainly wouldn't want to advise that now.

Honestly I think the concept I was trying to suggest is really only relevant within the context of a marriage that isn't facing any major problems, aside from perhaps a general laziness on the part of one or both partners in making efforts towards meeting the needs of their spouse, thus allowing the marriage to begin a downhill slide. When other issues like extreme selfishness, abuse, adultery, gambling, porn/alcohol/drug addiction, etc., all make this point irrelevant however, as this strategy just can't really work when issues like that are involved.

So again, I apologize for essentially hijacking the thread. Hopefully we can move on. MusingLizzy, has there been any updates worth noting?


----------

