# Numb and hostile



## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

I recently separated and intended to file for divorce from my wife after years of neglect and mal-treatment. I went about ending the marriage wrong and added an affair to complicate matters. No I don't need someone to judge. Point conceded... 

She found out, was violent and threatening me and the OW. We did have a great relationship before the rails came off several years ago. I remained faithful through years of total unhappiness and un-fulfillment. 

Because of the threats, I chose to move out and protect what's left of my property. I don't know if its normal but I feel a lot of anger and resentment right now. Part of me wants to try (to not throw away the years invested). Part of me wants to head out the door and never look back.

The OW (as they always do) showed me everything I haven't gotten in years. The OW understood me in a way that my wife never has. She allowed me to be me and accepted me for who I am. My wife has always accepted me provided I fit the mold she wanted me to be. Of course the sex was amazing in so many ways that never happened with my current. Our sex life fizzled years ago along with intimacy. 

I do love them both but I am not "in love" with my wife. I haven't been in years. My wife has been a pretty unlovable person. She wants to try. I'm honestly not sure there is any way to salvage the relationship. I've broken things off and made a commitment to attend counseling. However, if I feel the way I do today, I'm not sure what good it will do. 

I am upset and angry with myself that I didn't just end the marriage before this happened. But, I'm just as angry and upset that our relationship was ripe for this for so long. I even asked her once or twice in a fight if she wanted me to cheat. She told me yes and later recanted. From her POV, she did everything she could. My POV she did little that mattered to me on a regular basis. My POV, every time I respond to her, she gets "comfortable" real damn quick and it's back to the same routine.

I don't know how I can show kindness and open up to someone who has for so long, neglected or put me down instead of being a kind, nurturing, loving, supportive and sexual wife. I don't think she has it in her to be patient and make the commitment long enough for me to trust her. I know she's going to have trust issues for a long time to come. 

Hoping someone else has had something similar and can shed light on how their situation went.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What did your wife tell you was lacking all these years? 

What did she complain about?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I feel sorry for your wife.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

She now says I stopped being kind to her first. This was after I begged and pleaded, patiently waiting for her to want to work on the issues I saw developing. In my view, she stopped being intimate and investing in our relationship in meaningful ways long before my tank of kindness ran out. She's very career driven and that drive was at the center of a lot of the inattention I experienced.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Sooooo... Are you looking for advice or are you just wanting to vent...?


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

I've made the decision to try, regardless of the anger and utter frustration I feel at this very moment. Venting and seeing if someone on here had similar experiences in the aftermath.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

iwantmoore said:


> I've made the decision to try, regardless of the anger and utter frustration I feel at this very moment. Venting and seeing if someone on here had similar experiences in the aftermath.


OK, close enough. I'll bite...

How old are the two of you and how long have you been married?

Any kids? If so, how old?

What do the two of you do for work?

Did you begin the affair before or after you separated from your wife? Either way, was the affair the impetus for your separation?

Who is the other woman? Mutual friend, co-worker, neighbor, etc? Is she married?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> OK, close enough. I'll bite...


3-1 sez this thread rhymes with the word roll...


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

No kids. One from previous relationship that doesn't live with me. I wanted them. She's always been mildly hostile to the idea.

in our mid 30's, been together 8. 

We're both professionals who have decent control of our schedule (if we choose to).

OW was someone I knew from a long time ago (although we didn't put it together until recently). Long but interesting story.

Began before physical separation but after many months of in house separation (off and on being in the same bed). 

She is divorced with children.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> I've made the decision to try, regardless of the anger and utter frustration I feel at this very moment. Venting and seeing if someone on here had similar experiences in the aftermath.


Actually I did. From the story you tell , there is too much water under the bridge. If the other gal treats you like you say, why do you want to stay with someone who won't. One has your heart and the other only a marriage license with your name on it Dawg. You need to say adios to your marriage and save both of you more years of a living hell.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

Well dawg, I've made the commitment to talk to a professional. I know its the right thing to do. It will either begin the healing of the marriage or prepare us for what's next. I'm not sure the wife will like what I have to say if she concentrates on the sultry details of the affair instead of what led a truly faithful and honest man until this point to bite. I do not consider either of us innocent nor excuse my choice to put the cart before the horse...


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Your idealized perception of the OW will inhibit any chance of reconciliation.... why waste time with a professional if you've already made up your mind? Is it just so you can say, "I tried?"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read this book. Then come back and tell me what you think.

http://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Affair-Willard-Jr-Harley/dp/0800717589


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iwantmoore said:


> Well dawg, I've made the commitment to talk to a professional. I know its the right thing to do. It will either begin the healing of the marriage or prepare us for what's next. I'm not sure the wife will like what I have to say if she concentrates on the sultry details of the affair instead of what led a truly faithful and honest man until this point to bite. I do not consider either of us innocent nor excuse my choice to put the cart before the horse...


Affairs make a person see their marriage through a distorted lense. There is no way at all that your marriage can be fixed while you see your affair partner the way you do.

You also do not understand that nature of an affair and what it does to the betrayed spouse. Your wife will not be able to work on evaluating your marriage pre-affair or working to fix it until she's done some serious healing from the affair.

Your intent to go into counseling attacking your wife is not going to work either.

You want us to believe that your view of your marriage is 100% right and that your wife's view, that you did things to harm the marriage earlier on is just wrong because ... "list here all the negative you listed about what a cold, bad person she is".


I'm sorry but you both contributed to the failure of your marriage. Until you can see that your failures are on equal ground with hers there will be no recovery.

And add on top of it that you cheated. You are 100% responsible for the decision to cheat. Your decision did even more grave harm.

Looking at your marriage like an onion, the damage from your affair is the skin and first few layers. You have to work through those first. And the blame is all on you.

It takes extraordinary work to fix a marriage this messed up. The two of you could do it if you both approach is from a humble point of view. 

With your attitude, I think that you might do best to just divorce your wife. Just remember when you get with your affair partner that the chance of that ever working out is so small that it's almost zero.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

iwantmoore said:


> Well dawg, I've made the commitment to talk to a professional. I know its the right thing to do. It will either begin the healing of the marriage or prepare us for what's next. I'm not sure the wife will like what I have to say if she concentrates on the sultry details of the affair instead of what led a truly faithful and honest man until this point to bite. I do not consider either of us innocent nor excuse my choice to put the cart before the horse...


If you want your marriage to work, then you need to commit yourself to helping your wife to heal from the pain of your betrayal. This will likely require that you be as open and honest as she requires you to be.

You'd do well to obtain and read this (relatively short yet very insightful) book...

How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda J. MacDonald

It is also available for free in PDF format via the author's website...

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/how_to_help_11-06-10_final_pdf-.pdf

Best wishes to the both of you going forward.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I'll take this...



ThePheonix said:


> Actually I did. From the story you tell , there is too much water under the bridge. If the other gal treats you like you say, why do you want to stay with someone who won't. One has your heart and the other only a marriage license with your name on it Dawg. You need to say adios to your marriage and save both of you more years of a living hell.


...and raise you this...



EleGirl said:


> Affairs make a person see their marriage through a distorted lense. There is no way at all that your marriage can be fixed while you see your affair partner the way you do.
> 
> You also do not understand that nature of a affair and what it does to the betrayed spouse. Your wife will not be able to work on evaluating your marriage pre-affair or working to fix it until she's done some serious healing from the affair.
> 
> ...


Your call.


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## Kim C (Jun 9, 2014)

Your hearts not in it - walk away! There are no children holding you back it's a fairly easy move. Why go thru the motions and false hope when your mind was made up a long time ago. 

However, don't be surprised in 5 or 6 years from now when you are no longer shiny and new to this OW that you are saying the same things about her except you will find that she is also cheating 
on you because clearly marriage boundaries mean nothing to her either or she would have insisted you made the break from your W first. The most decent thing for everyone at this point is divorce and move on.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Prime example of an unremorseful cheater deep in the fog. Complete with re-writing the marital history, demonizing the betrayed wife, and OW being Miss Wonderful.

Go run off with your OW. I'm sure the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. 

Send your BW here and we'll advise her how to handle you.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

OP, what exactly did your wife do (or not do) that made you decide to have an affair? You'll find that a number of posters on here will automatically assume that the excuse "the wife neglected me" is a very nebulous and flimsy justification for an affair. If you can provide some tangible examples of what happened, then you'll get more meaningful advice - and maybe some sympathy.

But I don't understand why you would have cheated in this marriage. You have no kids, both of you are professionals (assuming likely no alimony on either side), and you stated that you've been losing your love for your wife for a long time. I could understand if a person elects to cheat because 1) you have kids and don't want to become a part time parent and 2) you feel that you couldn't survive financially. Don't confuse my understanding why with sanctioning that it's the right thing to do. 

But in your case...why?


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

As someone who has been dragged though false R more times than I care to admit I implore you to not do it.
There is no point in "trying" if you do not love her. It will just cause her more pain and stop her from getting on with her life.
Don't try and be her friend
Don't expect her to like you
Don't ask anything of her
Don't contact her.

You have rejected her for another woman. She would love to have the man who loved her back but she can't. 
It does not matter what minor things she did before you chose to dump her. The fact is you dumped her for another woman.

The best thing you can do is to get on with your life leaving her to find a man who will appreciate her. 
Cancel the counseling. Tell her that it is over. 
Walk away


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

by "neglected", did you mean to say she completely stopped having sex with you? If so, that in itself is a major marital problem that is still smoldering. Add on top of it your cheating with this new woman. Thats a lot of water to carry uphill. Even if you could talk thru the "neglect" and cheating...you still would have a sexless marriage to try to fix.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

iwantmoore said:


> I went about ending the marriage wrong and added an affair to complicate matters. .



I'm done reading this. You could have just written, "I cheated, I'm a jerkwad, and I want you to feel sorry for me".

I do feel sorry for you, but I feel more sorry for the women getting involved with you is all.


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## OpenEnded (Jul 30, 2012)

Please send your wife to this web site.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

okay I will bite. I was in a relationship for close to 30 years (27 married - 2 living together) a long time. I did what I could to keep it together - including it was often a sexless marriage. Now, the odd thing about a marriage being sexless is....there are 2 people not having sex. NOT 1. Seems obvious but I am tired of many WS who come on here and claim the they were frustrated the marriage was sexless - DUH so was your spouse! Most people when offered sex versus no sex would choose sex. SO the problem runs in the relationship. And in my case - my EX treated sex like a parent would dish out rewards and punishments. Then, when she would ream me out for some small mistake I made and then call me lovingly to bed I would say "If you think I am hot and horny now after what happened you are crazy." So point being - there became huge communication problems which I was 50% part of....BUT I had enough respect for the institution of marriage and our children and what we went through together as a couple to ever consider cheating on her. It was not in the cards for me - people work these things out over time. BUT once someone cheats - it is game over! Once you have brought someone else into the relationship then you started to "play dirty" if you pardon the pun. By all likelihood the relationship is over. You nuked your relationship. But there is an old saying "wherever you go, there you are." And you, my friend, will take you with you into the next relationship. And over time it will become the same thing and then you will think back (if you are honest - which I highly doubt (because I have watched most Waywards on here and one of the most common themes I see is the inability to see their wrong in the relationship - which tells me something about the relationship right there)), and see that you had a huge part to play in the break up. 
So there was a lack of intimacy in our relationship but it was due to both of us and oddly enough she's been gone 30 months and lo and behold the same things are happening to her and her new beau. I wish him well. And I have similar problems in my new relationship BUT I knew I would because I take myself with me - see the difference? I accept my responsibility. She didn't. 
So you have made your decision - good luck and when this new wonderful person starts complaining about the same things your STBXW does - you will realize your threw away 8 years of your life just to get to the same place. 
With my ex - she's been gone 30 months and guess what? Same problems.....but she's so busy justifying what she did that she cannot sit still and be happy. 
You know you are wrong and sorry - I do not feel sorry for you.
You threw someone who was with you for 8 years away like a piece of trash.....the karma bus will come for you too.
I wish you all the best in this wonderful new love affair (groan).


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

iwantmore

If you really want more than do the following.

Forget your OW. No talking to her. No thinking of her. No comparing your wife to her.

Go to counseling with an open mind and heart.

Throw yourself on your wifes mercy regarding the affair.

Own up to 50% of the issues in the marriage.

Then make a promise to yourself to give an honest try to fix the marriage and yourself.

Commit to less than one year.

Set a date and live with it.

You might actually be surprised about how you feel a year from now.

HM


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> I recently separated and intended to file for divorce from my wife after years of neglect and mal-treatment. I went about ending the marriage wrong and added an affair to complicate matters. No I don't need someone to judge. Point conceded...


Ok, will try not to judge, but you do realize that your cheating will be relevant to the advice/thoughts given, right?




> She found out, was violent and threatening me and the OW. We did have a great relationship before the rails came off several years ago. *I remained faithful through years of total unhappiness and un-fulfillment*.


And for that you want us to say what exactly?




> Because of the threats, I chose to move out and protect what's left of my property.


Don't you mean whats left of your marital property? Or have you both already divided assets?




> I don't know if its normal but I feel a lot of anger and resentment right now. Part of me wants to try (to not throw away the years invested). Part of me wants to head out the door and never look back.


Head out and never look back. Its the best thing for her.

She will get over it eventually, for the most part, and realize sooner or later that her behavior, while provoked, was not fitting of her and she'll feel silly for wasting her time with such.




> The OW (as they always do) showed me everything I haven't gotten in years. The OW understood me in a way that my wife never has. She allowed me to be me and accepted me for who I am. My wife has always accepted me provided I fit the mold she wanted me to be. Of course the sex was amazing in so many ways that never happened with my current. Our sex life fizzled years ago along with intimacy.


Ok, you say you don't want to be judged for your infidelity, but then you write this?




> I do love them both but I am not "in love" with my wife. I haven't been in years. My wife has been a pretty unlovable person. She wants to try. I'm honestly not sure there is any way to salvage the relationship. I've broken things off and made a commitment to attend counseling. However, if I feel the way I do today, I'm not sure what good it will do.


Ok, snipped the rest of the post as its irrelevant.

Get your divorce, go to the OW that will give you what you want, and set your wife free. End of story.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Would like to hear your W story here in this thread. Might be a bit of re-written history going on.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> I've made the decision to try, regardless of the anger and utter frustration I feel at this very moment. Venting and seeing if someone on here had similar experiences in the aftermath.


IWM..... you may not get this but

at this point it's not up to you

55


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, what exactly did your wife do (or not do) that made you decide to have an affair? You'll find that a number of posters on here will automatically assume that the excuse "the wife neglected me" is a very nebulous and flimsy justification for an affair. If you can provide some tangible examples of what happened, then you'll get more meaningful advice - and maybe some sympathy.
> 
> But I don't understand why you would have cheated in this marriage. You have no kids, both of you are professionals (assuming likely no alimony on either side), and you stated that you've been losing your love for your wife for a long time. I could understand if a person elects to cheat because 1) you have kids and don't want to become a part time parent and 2) you feel that you couldn't survive financially. Don't confuse my understanding why with sanctioning that it's the right thing to do.
> 
> But in your case...why?


How it happened is easy to understand. Take 8 years together with two people having/wanting/needing different things out of a relationship. I've had to bend or give up things that are fundamental to me to stay with her. I reached a breaking point and I couldn't do it anymore.

First, I've always wanted to have children with her, she didn't. Being around families with children brings me to tears. I've left events, even at times stopped watching something on TV that gets too close to the big 400lb elephant in the room. I've been increasingly depressed and hurt by the lack of growth in her love for me to want children. It is only now that we're separated and she's desperate to keep our relationship has her attitude changed. Previously, having a car seat in the car to give a friends child a ride was like nails on a chalk board. I don't want to hold a gun to her head. I don't think that's a good way to bring a child into the world. I wanted her to come to that conclusion on her own but she never took any steps in that direction.

Second, inattention goes like this: forgotten days/dates such as birthday's, anniversaries of things like our first date. The recent Christmases have been dismal. I have always put a lot of thought and energy into bday's, anniversaries, etc. I would have never forgotten her birthday, etc. That's happened to me. More than one Christams found me going shopping for myself because she got me a standard gift or two last minute. It's not about how much but it is about the thought (or lack thereof). 

3. Intimacy broke down when other activities took the place of our time in the evenings. Facebook, TV shows, online games instead of time together. The "job" was the mantra but clearly with time for leisure, there is time for together. That hasn't been a true priority of hers in a long time. She's happy with a infrequent and very bland sex life. We've had so many fights over the lack of desire and huge amount of frustrations that come when your partner isn't being the one you need them to be. 

4. I've done several 180's trying to bring about a change. I dropped down to my before relationship weight and I've never been in better shape. Updated my look, etc. Every time I responded to her attempt to move closer, things quickly go back to the way they were. She's proven to me time and again, I can't trust her to be there for me, emotionally or physically.

5. I had a couple deaths in short succession. She quickly wanted me to get over what i was going through instead of being there with me. Her attitude was "what about making me happy"? Her father has been sick off and on for a long time. I've been there to support her both in time and emotional support. I've never judged her reactions or discounted her feelings as she's discounted mine. 

Basic kindness,empathy, sympathy, support and a nurturing spirit do not exist. Nurturing never has been something she's cared to be. When I brought up that she is not a nurturing person in our relationship, she automatically got angry and said "im not going to be your mother". The way a wife nurtures a husband is not the same as a woman nurtures her children, but there are some overlaps in the kinds of things you do. 

It's not like I haven't tried everything I could, even being frustrated enough to ask her if that's what she wanted to happen? Her attitude didn't change until I was ready to walk out and had an affair. She's not an evil monster and she has a lot of good qualities. Having said that, I don't see them applied to our relationship often. I also accept I'm not the innocent party and don't consider her to be at fault for my affair. I chose it, my fault. Not looking for anyone to say screw her, leave her now or tell me im a DB for giving in to a glass of water when I've been dying of thirst and asking for a long time for a drink. 

Our relationship was and is as dry as dead grass sitting in the summer sun with a gallon of gasoline poured on it and it's been that way for a long time. There were so many things she could have done that would have affair proofed our marriage. Easy things for her to do/say that would have zeroed the possibility of me ever being unfaithful. My hurt, lack of fulfillment in the home and in our marriage primed the pump. 

My dilemma is I don't know if she's capable of changing to prevent this from darkening our door again. After having a taste of being treated the way I've always wanted/needed her to be with me, I won't be able to accept a marriage that doesn't include my needs being met. I can easily do the things she want's and needs but the sustained effort to give back has to be there. I don't want either of us to sacrifice who we are OR our happiness to keep beating a dead horse for the simple sake of convienence. I'd rather us heal, find the right people and hope we can become friends eventually so we don't lose those years of our lives.

Right now she has a gun to her head so everything including children is all of a sudden on the table. Once the pressure is off, I'm not sure old habits wont come back and we'll be right back here, both miserable and now wasted more years trying to fix something that was broken before I let temptation get the better of me.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

You didn't talk about having kids before marriage?

If you think having kids is going to up your sex life and/or intimacy...think again. In many marriages, things go downhill after kids. So, if you are using lack of intimacy and sex as an excuse...think again about wanting kids.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Let's be honest the OW has not had to deal with you on a day to day basis for years. She is a fantasy for you and in fantasies everything is great and fun and wonderful.

Your wife has had to deal with your nose hairs in the sink. leaving the seat up and farting under the covers. 

You should get yourself some IC and look at who you really are


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> How it happened is easy to understand. Take 8 years together with two people having/wanting/needing different things out of a relationship. I've had to bend or give up things that are fundamental to me to stay with her. I reached a breaking point and I couldn't do it anymore.
> 
> First, I've always wanted to have children with her, she didn't. Being around families with children brings me to tears. I've left events, even at times stopped watching something on TV that gets too close to the big 400lb elephant in the room. I've been increasingly depressed and hurt by the lack of growth in her love for me to want children. It is only now that we're separated and she's desperate to keep our relationship has her attitude changed. Previously, having a car seat in the car to give a friends child a ride was like nails on a chalk board. I don't want to hold a gun to her head. I don't think that's a good way to bring a child into the world. I wanted her to come to that conclusion on her own but she never took any steps in that direction.
> 
> ...


Long story short....this is all her fault.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

mahike said:


> Let's be honest the OW has not had to deal with you on a day to day basis for years. She is a fantasy for you and in fantasies everything is great and fun and wonderful.
> 
> Your wife has had to deal with your nose hairs in the sink. leaving the seat up and farting under the covers.
> 
> You should get yourself some IC and look at who you really are


Exactly. This is what married people who like the thrill of someone new forget, or fail to understand.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> First, I've always wanted to have children with her, she didn't.


That's not what you said in your other thread. You had a vasectomy and asked her if that mattered and you told the forum that she said it wasn't a deal breaker for her.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> I'm not sure the wife will like what I have to say if she concentrates on the sultry details of the affair instead of what led a truly faithful and honest man until this point to bite. I do not consider either of us innocent nor excuse my choice to put the cart before the horse...


There are two sides to the story; I know that. And I know this ain't going to win me a lot of goodwill on this site, but the wife may need to consider if you'd taken the road you did if she'd behaved a little different.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> So there was a lack of intimacy in our relationship but it was due to both of us and oddly enough she's been gone 30 months and lo and behold the same things are happening to her and her new beau. I wish him well. And I have similar problems in my new relationship BUT I knew I would because I take myself with me - see the difference? I accept my responsibility. She didn't.


I started reading your post and began to wonder if we weren't married to the same woman.  I'm going to disagree with you on one point Dawg. The lack of intimacy and a sexless marriage is usually not due to both parties One party, as a best as I can tell in your case, your wife, is the one who shuts down intimacy. When one spouse decides they are not interested in sex, you can talk the horns off a billy goat and it ain't going to change things. All this stuff sounds good in a book but in real life, at least what I've saw, you have intimacy when your married to a person with the right chemistry. That's been my case for the last 21 years and my kids are older than many on this site. In the final analysis lets face it, a man needs sex to feel loved. If he doesn't have a woman who desires him and makes him a priority , what does he have but a high cost room mate.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> There are two sides to the story; I know that. And I know this ain't going to win me a lot of goodwill on this site, but the wife may need to consider if you'd taken the road you did if she'd behaved a little different.


In that case he would have come up with something else to blame on her, per the usual. I'm not saying anyone is perfect but when a WS is bound and determined to have an affair, anything the BS does or has done, said, thought, and even complete falsehoods about the BS can be used to "justify" an affair. 

The OP's BS only owns her part of the marital problems and is not responsible for what WS is doing to her by cheating. If what is posted here is true and I was this entitled WS's wife, especially given the fact they have no kids, his stuff would be waiting for him in the driveway. This is just another WS looking to justify his actions by piling all of the blame on his wife while making the OW out to be perfect. Sure. 

OP, if it's as bad as you describe do your wife a favor and leave. Give her the chance to find someone who will love her and treat her better while you skip off into la-la land with your OW. I'm sure the grass is greener on the other side because hearts, rainbows, and unicorn excrement undoubtedly makes awesome lawn fertilizer. 

My WS's xOW was just looking for someone to make a baby with her and one of her OM finally gave her what she wanted. All the while she was telling all FIVE of her OM exactly what they wanted to hear. Basically manipulating and blowing smoke up their arses to massage their egos and make them believe whatever her fake agenda was. Poor thing was being "abused" by her xBS. Yah, not so much. In fact, not at all. 

No idea what your OW does to keep you hooked into the affair but I'm sure it's all the honest to God truth, right? Lol. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OP, you sound like you are in the fog of infidelity. The problem is when this happens people often (usually?) tend to unconsciously re-invent the history of their marriage and indulge in a good deal of blame shifting.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> There are two sides to the story; I know that. And I know this ain't going to win me a lot of goodwill on this site, but the wife may need to consider if you'd taken the road you did if she'd behaved a little different.


Also, the OP has apparently posted in another thread about either wanting or having a vasectomy and insisting his BS be ok with that. In this thread he's so desperate for children, and blaming his BS for not wanting any, he becomes an emotional mess at the sight of families with their children. :scratchhead::rofl:

I knew the kid talk sounded off when I first read it. What a :tool:.

I have no patience for liars so if given the choice, I'd take the _reported_ behavior of his BS over his lies and cheating any day.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Iwantmore my man, would you've taken a different road if your old lady would have treated you differently or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and just wanted a little on the side? TryingtoRecover has got you changing stories. I've been coming to your defense. Could it be your girlfriend just put something on you that Ajax won't take off. (I'll be waiting for a response Dawg)


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I started reading your post and began to wonder if we weren't married to the same woman.  I'm going to disagree with you on one point Dawg. The lack of intimacy and a sexless marriage is usually not due to both parties One party, as a best as I can tell in your case, your wife, is the one who shuts down intimacy. When one spouse decides they are not interested in sex, you can talk the horns off a billy goat and it ain't going to change things. All this stuff sounds good in a book but in real life, at least what I've saw, you have intimacy when your married to a person with the right chemistry. That's been my case for the last 21 years and my kids are older than many on this site. In the final analysis lets face it, a man needs sex to feel loved. If he doesn't have a woman who desires him and makes him a priority , what does he have but a high cost room mate.


That's true - my wife wanted to control when and how often we would have it. Not sure about chemistry but I know when one acts like a mother rather than a spouse it creates problems...unless one has an Oedipus complex. True about the roommate though.....the women I know now understand men and their egos and how to stroke them - my ex continually emasculated me. doesn't make for great sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> I started reading your post and began to wonder if we weren't married to the same woman.  I'm going to disagree with you on one point Dawg. The lack of intimacy and a sexless marriage is usually not due to both parties One party, as a best as I can tell in your case, your wife, is the one who shuts down intimacy. When one spouse decides they are not interested in sex, you can talk the horns off a billy goat and it ain't going to change things. All this stuff sounds good in a book but in real life, at least what I've saw, you have intimacy when your married to a person with the right chemistry. That's been my case for the last 21 years and my kids are older than many on this site. In the final analysis lets face it, a man needs sex to feel loved. If he doesn't have a woman who desires him and makes him a priority , what does he have but a high cost room mate.


Phoenix, I get that you've been burned. But for your own sake, try to lighten up on the woman-hating, ok? Women are not the cause of all evil, women aren't always going to gip you and ruin your life. Women don't all go into marriages to cheat and withhold sex and blame the men. 

And sometimes, sometimes, the man actually is just as much at fault as the woman.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

Moxiesbuddy said:


> Iwantmoore, you are to be commended for trying to heal your marriage, and I'm sorry things got to this point before you got help. You sound reluctant at best but seem aware of the road ahead. I'd be curious to hear how the counseling goes. You've received some excellent advice here. I would simply suggest that you both have open hearts and teachable spirits as you look closely at areas that need forgiveness or healing.
> 
> Moxiesbuddy


Thank you. I don't know what will come of it either. Kind of why I asked to begin with...


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Iwantmore my man, would you've taken a different road if your old lady would have treated you differently or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and just wanted a little on the side? TryingtoRecover has got you changing stories. I've been coming to your defense. Could it be your girlfriend just put something on you that Ajax won't take off. (I'll be waiting for a response Dawg)


No changing stories. I had a vasectomy before we got together. I asked if that was a problem. She said not at all because she never wanted children. I regretted having it done and told her I would reverse it at any time. Funny how people think they know you better than you do by reading a different meaning into your words. :scratchhead:


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> How it happened is easy to understand. Take 8 years together with two people having/wanting/needing different things out of a relationship. I've had to bend or give up things that are fundamental to me to stay with her. I reached a breaking point and I couldn't do it anymore.
> 
> First, I've always wanted to have children with her, she didn't. Being around families with children brings me to tears. I've left events, even at times stopped watching something on TV that gets too close to the big 400lb elephant in the room. I've been increasingly depressed and hurt by the lack of growth in her love for me to want children. It is only now that we're separated and she's desperate to keep our relationship has her attitude changed. Previously, having a car seat in the car to give a friends child a ride was like nails on a chalk board. I don't want to hold a gun to her head. I don't think that's a good way to bring a child into the world. I wanted her to come to that conclusion on her own but she never took any steps in that direction.
> 
> ...


After reading this description of the relationship that exists between the two of you, I honestly don't see why either of you wants to stay together. :scratchhead: You obviously want totally different things out of life.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Iwantmore my man, would you've taken a different road if your old lady would have treated you differently or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and just wanted a little on the side? TryingtoRecover has got you changing stories. I've been coming to your defense. Could it be your girlfriend just put something on you that Ajax won't take off. (I'll be waiting for a response Dawg)


There have been many times where I could have done it without getting caught. There is a difference between a serial cheater and someone who loses their willpower. I do believe spouses can 99.9 percent affair proof their marriages by doing simple daily things that show the other person that they are loved and cherished. When you neglect those basic needs that your spouse has, it cracks the door open. I stepped through the door. 100% responsible. It's not blaming her to believe in my heart it was totally and easily preventable in my case and in most other cases. An affair is the perpetrators fault. The rest becomes a grey area we can debate till the cows come home. Simply put, a man with a full stomach isn't going to take a bite of an apple when he has apple pie ala mode at home.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

thummper said:


> After reading this description of the relationship that exists between the two of you, I honestly don't see why either of you wants to stay together. :scratchhead: You obviously want totally different things out of life.


It's not all crap sandwiches and yellow snow. There aren't any major substance abuse or other really REALLY bad issues like gambling, physical abuse, etc. We can and do get along. We do have a life together and it's not all bad but we grew apart instead of growing together. There is love there as well. It's underneath said sandwiches and snow.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

So do what Dr. Phil says before you decide to leave a marriage you have to 'earn you way out'.

You must show true remorse for the cheating, it's always a soul crushing event for the BS and you have to fully get that point. Regardless of the neglect/lack of intimacy it's a cruel thing to do to your lifemate. 


Try a sincere attempt at marriage counseling. Do 6 months of MC and follow their suggestions to a T. 

Relationships with AP almost always fail, so keep that in mind.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> No changing stories. I had a vasectomy before we got together. I asked if that was a problem. She said not at all because she never wanted children. I regretted having it done and told her I would reverse it at any time. Funny how people think they know you better than you do by reading a different meaning into your words. :scratchhead:


So, you cheated on her because (in part) she didn't want kids, yet you KNEW this going into the relationship and had a vasectomy yourself. :scratchhead: :scratchhead:

Now you're all crying when you see kids because you married someone who didn't want kids and she married someone who she thought didn't want kids...AND blaming her for it? 

I can see why she started to drift away from you. You are just grabbing at straws because you're in the fog of your affair. You are mad at your wife for not wanting kids when it was discussed that you having a vasectomy was no big deal because she never wanted children. You were looking for a reason to give as an excuse for your affair. Sorry. That one doesn't count. 

You need to divorce her.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> Phoenix, I get that you've been burned. But for your own sake, try to lighten up on the woman-hating, ok? Women are not the cause of all evil, women aren't always going to gip you and ruin your life. Women don't all go into marriages to cheat and withhold sex and blame the men.


Nice ad hominem attempt my man. But you have to do better than that.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Look folk, according to old Iwantmoore's story, his spouse push the envelope and he "took up" with a girl that treated him better. Should he's taken that path? Probably not. But this stuff happens everyday. Would he still done the same thing had his marriage been a little more conducive to his wants and needs? Maybe so or maybe not. All I'm saying is some, not all, affairs could be avoided if the BS would have been a little more cognizant of the needs of the other rather than waiting until after the fact to complain about it. From what I glean from some of these post, if the some BS were as negligent toward their jobs as they are toward their spouses, they wouldn't last a month.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iwantmoore said:


> There have been many times where I could have done it without getting caught. There is a difference between a serial cheater and someone who loses their willpower. I do believe spouses can 99.9 percent affair proof their marriages by doing simple daily things that show the other person that they are loved and cherished. When you neglect those basic needs that your spouse has, it cracks the door open. I stepped through the door. 100% responsible. It's not blaming her to believe in my heart it was totally and easily preventable in my case and in most other cases. An affair is the perpetrators fault. The rest becomes a grey area we can debate till the cows come home. *Simply put, a man with a full stomach isn't going to take a bite of an apple when he has apple pie ala mode at home*.


This is untrue in many cases in which men/women cheat. we often hear that even the WS is happy in the marriage. They just have the attitude that what their spouse does not know will not hurt them.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Nice ad hominem attempt my man. But you have to do better than that.


I think you need to look up the definition of ad hominem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Look folk, according to old Iwantmoore's story, his spouse push the envelope and he "took up" with a girl that treated him better. Should he's taken that path? Probably not. But this stuff happens everyday. Would he still done the same thing had his marriage been a little more conducive to his wants and needs? Maybe so or maybe not. All I'm saying is some, not all, affairs could be avoided if the BS would have been a little more cognizant of the needs of the other rather than waiting until after the fact to complain about it. From what I glean from some of these post, if the some BS were as negligent toward their jobs as they are toward their spouses, they wouldn't last a month.


Keep in mind that we have only one side of the story here. It's the side of the spouse is wants to justify their affair and is still in an affair fog. A very normal part self-justification of an affair is to re-write history and see the BS in a very bad light.

This is the sort of thing that needs to be worked out in MC so that OP and his wife get as close to the truth as possible.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> Nice ad hominem attempt my man. But you have to do better than that.


I don't have to do _anything_. People see the hating going on and dismiss your words, knowing you're just in pain. I was just trying to help you understand it. Some guys here never do, and become hardened misogynists, and it affects the rest of their lives.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> This is untrue in many cases in which men/women cheat. we often hear that even the WS is happy in the marriage. They just have the attitude that what their spouse does not know will not hurt them.


I molded myself in a pretzel trying to please my ex-fiancé, for three years. I gave up family and friends, changed my appearance, gave up doing anything I liked to spend every waking minute doing what HE liked, and then I found out that he'd been cheating on me the entire time. In MY car. Which HE wrecked while drunk taking the OW out.

He just liked cheating.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

iwantmoore said:


> No changing stories. I had a vasectomy before we got together. I asked if that was a problem. She said not at all because she never wanted children. I regretted having it done and told her I would reverse it at any time. *Funny how people think they know you better than you do by reading a different meaning into your words*. :scratchhead:


We only know about you what you post :scratchhead:. The back story on wanting a reversal would have been handy since the kid issue seems to be a major point of contention for you. There was no "reading a different meaning into your words," all that happened is you left out a big chunk of the WHOLE story.

I actually saw that Vellocet had mentioned that in one of your other threads you had mentioned having had a vasectomy. So when you went into the marriage you had a vasectomy and you married a woman who was honest with you about never wanting kids. But because you regret a major decision you made prior to marrying your BS, now the whole kids/no kids issue is HER fault?

Given the state of your marriage, going by your description, the last thing your BS should be doing is bending herself into a pretzel to make you happy and certainly not by considering jumping into parenthood. Wouldn't be fair to the kid(s). No one should have children in a desperate attempt to keep someone around, particularly someone who has made it clear they never wanted kids in the first place. 

You list out a whole lot of things that are "wrong" about your BS and her part in the marriage but what are your faults? What did you contribute to the breakdown of your marriage? That is, aside from your cheating? Cheating also involves deceit, manipulation of the BS, often times marital funds are spent on the affair, in many cases the WS trash talks the BS to their AP and/or tells the AP very personal info about the BS, exposure to STDs, time that could be spent together is instead spent on the AP, the BS's life is not really as they know it. 

Look, I don't know you or your wife from a load of alfalfa but since there are no children and it sounds as though you are both self sufficient financially, why are you bothering with this? Because you made a decision to cheat instead of leaving what _sounds_ like a miserable marriage, then it would appear as though you just enjoy some aspect of having your wife at home and a side piece, like a typical, non-remorseful, cake eating WS. 

Your story is no special Greek tragedy, it's just another story about adultery where the WS blames the BS in a sad attempt to justify the affair. Projection. We all have faults and things we need to work on, including your wife, but in attempting to address those issues over the years and you determine your wife does not want to change and you are still unhappy, then the answer is divorce not cheating.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Funny how, when you want to cheat, your spouse suddenly is devilspawn.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Look folk, according to old Iwantmoore's story, his spouse push the envelope and he "took up" with a girl that treated him better. Should he's taken that path? Probably not. But this stuff happens everyday. Would he still done the same thing had his marriage been a little more conducive to his wants and needs? Maybe so or maybe not. All I'm saying is some, not all, affairs could be avoided if the BS would have been a little more cognizant of the needs of the other rather than waiting until after the fact to complain about it. From what I glean from some of these post, if the some BS were as negligent toward their jobs as they are toward their spouses, they wouldn't last a month.


Interesting. In my situation on day the affair was immediately pinned on me for not being attentive enough. Then that switched to the affair being blamed on my depression. I certainly was depressed as, after all, I was having problems coping with grief after having signed my dad's life away when I had him removed from life support, our middle kid was deployed to Afghanistan, needing to maintain a full-time job, and oh yah....my WS was dumb enough to involve himself in an EA about to turn into a PA with a much younger co-worker who, as it turns out, just wanted one of her idiot OM, there were five, to father a kid for her since her BS either couldn't or was smart enough not to with her. Now she has a hold on some poor sap's checkbook for 18 years. Mission accomplished.

Then he blamed the affair on his xAP, then his work environment, then his family of origin. Blah, blah, blah and then some more blah, blah, blah. 

A little over two years later and some months ago he told me without any provocation from me, that although we had problems and neither of us were happy, he made the decisions he did due to bad boundaries, enjoying the ego boost and attention he was getting, boredom in our relationship at the time, low self esteem, and opportunity. 

Marital problems are equally our fault and our job to work on and, per my WS, his affair was 110% on him. I agree. Our situation is not everyone else's but really, there is no excuse good enough to justify cheating.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> No changing stories. I had a vasectomy before we got together. I asked if that was a problem. She said not at all because she never wanted children. I regretted having it done and told her I would reverse it at any time. Funny how people think they know you better than you do by reading a different meaning into your words. :scratchhead:


This is what you said:



> When my current wife and I began our relationship, I was concerned since she didn't have any children that my being sterile would be a problem. She insisted it wasn't a deal breaker, that she never really had a large desire to have children of her own


So she said it wasn't a dealbreaker and that she really didn't desire to have children of her own.

You said you were concerned about being sterile and her not having children.

So some point along the way it was agreed that both of you were fine with that.

NOW you are saying you want more kids. I think this is smoke and mirrors to paint your wife in the worst possible light. All of your other declarations are simply you putting all the blame on her and none on you.

You are blaming her for everything, came to an understanding that your vasectomy wasn't a problem, but NOW you want to change the game.

You did a bait and switch on her with the kids issue. So why don't you just set her free?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

When you're talking about something as big as kids, the issues really need to be discussed before marriage. It seems like your wife told you that she didn't have a desire for kids. 

Kids are a big life changer. You can't just marry someone hoping they will change their mind. You need to say..."HEY! I may want more kids in the future, it would be a deal breaker for me if you NEVER wanted children and were not open to the idea." 

Could have saved yourself 8 years of marriage and an affair that has now ruined a person.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Pamvhv said:


> I think you need to look up the definition of ad hominem.


I resemble that statement.





turnera said:


> I don't have to do _anything_. People see the hating going on and dismiss your words, knowing you're just in pain. I was just trying to help you understand it. Some guys here never do, and become hardened misogynists, and it affects the rest of their lives.


Now that's better. Stay tuned and I'll give you more to practice on.:smthumbup:


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

vellocet said:


> This is what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't a bait and switch at all. If you bothered to read, I take 100% responsibility for my actions. I do not consider myself the innocent victim and her the devil. I don't blame her for my choices. However, it is absolutely the truth that trauma, neglect and unmet needs is a recipe for trouble. She wasn't the perfect spouse and neither was I. I know what she didn't do for years in no way justifies what I did. You can stop beating the dead horse.

After my last thread, I went to her and explained how I felt about wanting to start a family with her. I was told I was putting too much pressure on her for intimacy and for children by simply mentioning my needs. I was largely left alone to deal with my pain without the help from the partner I wanted and needed. 

When I fell in love with her, I wanted to have children with her. That hope and dream never changed. But I did change that I could no longer just accept no as an answer. I couldn't accept not trying, to at least open up to the possibilities. To grow our family and build something that was ours. 

We went to counseling for several months about every issue I've mentioned here. We've been in and out of counseling for the last 2.5 years trying work on the intimacy issue. Before that I saw someone on my own to help me better communicate my needs to her. 

If you don't have something constructive to say, unsubscribe and go flame elsewhere. I came here to talk to someone about my situation and find some others who may have had similar experiences to pick their brains.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

You married her knowing she didn't want to have kids. It's all about you and you only. What about her, you know she didn't want kids but you kept pressuring her, prodding her, moping around like a little hurt kid. If I was in her shoes who the hell would want to be around someone like that either. Leaving family parties early like a little kid because it hurts you to see everyone with kids but not you, really.....Seriously.....

YOU MARRIED HER KNOWING she DIDN'T WANT KIDS. Stop this pity party and let her go. If you take her back with the condition of her having kids (which you said that she was willing to give you one if you came back to her) shame on you! SHAME ON YOU!

You sir are in the wrong in this situation and until you can see that it's still all about you. Zero empathy and 100% self centered. I know because I was that way and still am from time to time. How my wife stays with me is a miracle IMO.

My wife didn't want to have kids either when we got together. I was fine with it even though I always thought of having a family with kids. I never pouted or *****ed about it to her saying well my buddies/cousins are all having kids left and right. And everyone was having kids and my parents were on my back for the longest time asking when I was going to have kids. I told my parents straight up, she doesn't want to have kids (oh boy did that go over good). I don't know how many years my parents rode my behind about kids...Sorry, I married her and she doesn't want to have kids, my life but thanks for being there for me.

One day the wife just said let's have a kid and I was shocked and made sure she really wanted to have kids cuz I was totally fine with having no kids at all. Now a days with my oldest just hitting her teen years, I'm really thinking about the not having kids idea......Just kidding but once in a blue moon you just get that brief blip, what if...

If my wife would have not wanted kids I would still be with her today, kids or no kids I still love her. There are no conditions for her to stay with me and I'm lucky to have her after what I did to her.

I think what finally won my wife over was all the cousins would ask us to help babysit their kids from time to time. We were the ones who almost always baby sat someone's kid for 4 or 5 years prior to my wife finally wanting to have kids. My wife is great with kids. Was not my idea but I can only guess it was from my parents.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> Wasn't a bait and switch at all. If you bothered to read, I take 100% responsibility for my actions. I do not consider myself the innocent victim and her the devil. I don't blame her for my choices.
> 
> *Yes it was. It doesn't matter if you take 100% responsibility. You still married her knowing that you may want kids and you did not tell her this. Now, you want kids, she still does not.*
> 
> ...


*You aren't getting "flamed" You are getting honest advice that is really good. You can't change the way your wife feels. You can try for a really long time (as it seems you have) but you can't MAKE her change her mind. Your options: Deal with the fact she doesn't want kids and is going to be even less intimate than before because you cheated, OR Divorce and start over with someone else.*


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> Wasn't a bait and switch at all.


Yes, it is. You and your wife came to the understanding that it is what it is and she indicated that she wasn't too terribly big on the idea of kids. You both accepted that, you got married, and there you go.

NOW you are using the excuse of wanting kids to justify your actions. So since she married you under the assumption that kids wasn't that big of a deal, you now are switching it up.




> If you bothered to read


I bothered to read. You just don't get to backpedal



> I don't blame her for my choices. However, it is absolutely the truth that trauma, neglect and unmet needs is a recipe for trouble.


Of which you put all on her. Whether you think so or not you DID blame her for your choices. And just did again.




> She wasn't the perfect spouse and neither was I. I know what she didn't do for years in no way justifies what I did. You can stop beating the dead horse.


Fine, then divorce her and set her free. Then you can go do whatever you want.



> If you don't have something constructive to say, unsubscribe and go flame elsewhere.


See directly above. I did. Get a divorce. That is the most constructive thing you are going to here given your situation and attitude towards your wife.

Your handle is "iwantmoore". Whether the OW's name is "Moore" or you meant "more", either way, if that's what you want, divorce your wife and go find it already. Just quit wasting what is left of your wife's time on this planet so she can go find happiness.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> Interesting. In my situation on day the affair was immediately pinned on me for not being attentive enough. Then that switched to the affair being blamed on my depression.


TTC, there are three factors that are going to be present when folks cheat; motivation, opportunity, and justification. Motivation may be no more than the thrill of doing it. Of course there has to be opportunity and unfortunately the justification is typically blaming to other person for a deficiency in the relationship. How can you justify cheating unless you blame deficiencies in the relationship caused by the other? It ain't human nature to blame yourself (until you get caught) You just cannot buy into their justification. Sometime their perceived deficiency in the relationship is intrinsic in their own personality and their is nothing to be done about it. Only you can say whether you put so little priority and effort in and on the relationship that it exacerbated his willingness to find justification. 
I've said this before and it applies to both men and women. If the person really gives a crap about you, maintained a high romantic interest in you, they will have worked with you on some of these issues rather than looking to escape into the arms of another. The strength of a relationship is inversely proportional in the desire to sleep with someone else.


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## iwantmoore (Jun 28, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Yes, it is. You and your wife came to the understanding that it is what it is and she indicated that she wasn't too terribly big on the idea of kids. You both accepted that, you got married, and there you go.
> 
> NOW you are using the excuse of wanting kids to justify your actions. So since she married you under the assumption that kids wasn't that big of a deal, you now are switching it up.
> 
> ...


We had a very difficult but different conversation about the affair and what led up to it the next day. It was the conversation that we should have had a long time ago. I told her I didn't want to put a gun to her head and that's why I asked to end our marriage. There are some deep seeded issues on her side that aren't worth going into here, reasons why she avoided having them. The fact that she's now willing to address them is a good thing for her regardless of the outcome. 

I do love her and I do care about her too. The first thing on the docket for counseling after the "he's a cheating bastard" and my next apology will be a more serious discussion with an impartial 3rd party on is this truly something you want to do with me or not. If I am not convinced we can work it out or she's doing it ONLY to keep me, I won't let her do it. I would rather her find someone who will be ok with not raising a family. If this horrible situation brought her to face and overcome what she's hidden from and she gets to have a child SHE deserves as well, then something positive will have come from it. 

People are allowed to change their minds about kids, both to have them and to not have them. I'm equally entitled to my feelings as she is. For the first time, she actually considered mine and that's a huge step in the right direction. I wish it wouldn't have taken an affair to get here. AGAIN 100% my choice, my fault....

Vello, you're trolling all over yourself again...


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> TTC, there are three factors that are going to be present when folks cheat; motivation, opportunity, and justification. Motivation may be no more than the thrill of doing it. Of course there has to be opportunity and unfortunately the justification is typically blaming to other person for a deficiency in the relationship. How can you justify cheating unless you blame deficiencies in the relationship caused by the other? It ain't human nature to blame yourself (until you get caught) You just cannot buy into their justification. Sometime their perceived deficiency in the relationship is intrinsic in their own personality and their is nothing to be done about it. Only you can say whether you put so little priority and effort in and on the relationship that it exacerbated his willingness to find justification.
> I've said this before and it applies to both men and women. If the person really gives a crap about you, maintained a high romantic interest in you, they will have worked with you on some of these issues rather than looking to escape into the arms of another. The strength of a relationship is inversely proportional in the desire to sleep with someone else.


I was pretty much on board with what you were saying until I got to this, *"Only you can say whether you put so little priority and effort in and on the relationship that it exacerbated his willingness to find justification."* 

Bull****. If a person is looking to justify getting some strange, the dog peeing in the wrong part of the yard can be enough to justify on some days..... depending on the severity of the "Head in Arse" syndrome the WS is afflicted with.

Sorry but this is word salad intended to blame the BS the actions and choices of a WS...quit blaming BS's for the actions of another. I'm not perfect, not a selfless saint, sure as hell did not do everything right but adults make their own choices based on a lot of different factors. I was in the same crappy marriage and wasn't out having an affair. 

Although some behavior patterns can be noted, everyone's relationship is different. Your experience may not be the same experience others go through.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I will pipe in here....iwant again not to repeat others but why don't you just leave? No children? You say she does not meet your needs and has not for years? What is the problem? You found a new "love". Away you go....
But there is a problem isn't there? You love your wife and yet did a nasty thing to her - the worst possible thing. But to justify it you need to drudge up crap she did or other issues (that were there all along) to help you live with what you have done. 
I agree with others - move on but not for you for your wife - I am sure there are plenty other men who would be willing to date her - you know, ones who are loyal. But that's what you are afraid of isn't it? therein lies the problem. You created my man - now wear big man's pants and take responsibility for what you created. Honestly, you talk about children but is this what you would teach a child? When things get tough.....up the ante by having an affair and being dishonest. I would not want a child in this scenario. Sorry Bud...move on.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

iwantmoore said:


> We had a very difficult but different conversation about the affair and what led up to it the next day. It was the conversation that we should have had a long time ago. I told her I didn't want to put a gun to her head and that's why I asked to end our marriage. There are some deep seeded issues on her side that aren't worth going into here, reasons why she avoided having them. The fact that she's now willing to address them is a good thing for her regardless of the outcome.
> 
> I do love her and I do care about her too. The first thing on the docket for counseling after the "he's a cheating bastard" and my next apology will be a more serious discussion with an impartial 3rd party on is this truly something you want to do with me or not. If I am not convinced we can work it out or she's doing it ONLY to keep me, I won't let her do it. I would rather her find someone who will be ok with not raising a family. If this horrible situation brought her to face and overcome what she's hidden from and she gets to have a child SHE deserves as well, then something positive will have come from it.
> 
> ...


Must...... take...... OP....... seriously........

Iwantmoore, I am so sorry you're here.

In a world covered by snow, the special little snowflakes like you always get the negativity.

Your posts strike a chord deep within me, because I, too, have felt the trauma of being traumatized by my partner. I know the feeling of rejection of being trapped within a sexless marriage, often for days at a time. And I know the feeling of aloneness, when life hands you one slice of bread and an empty peanut butter jar, and you realize that your partner *DOESN'T GOT YOUR BACK!*

And that's why my motto in life is

"When things get even a little bit difficult, it's time to rub genitals with a stranger!"

And I want you to know that even though you have a vasectomy, I don't think you're ball-less. And your wife shouldn't treat you like you are, any more than she can get away with. 

The problem I see here is that you have LOW SELF-ESTEEM. Let's face it. You're a neat-o torpedo kind of guy. I would call you "awesome," but awesome falls short of the embodiment of coolness that you, uh, embody.

You just have trouble admitting to yourself how wonderful you are. 

You need to set your sights higher. I'm thinking super models and really rich young chicks, you know, the "daddy is a billionaire" girls.

You deserve so much better than you've got. 

I'd type more, but my eyes are filled with tears at the injustice of your situation. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

iwantmoore said:


> Wasn't a bait and switch at all. *If you bothered to read, I take 100% responsibility for my actions.* I do not consider myself the innocent victim and her the devil. *I don't blame her for my choices. However, it is absolutely the truth that trauma, neglect and unmet needs is a recipe for trouble.* She wasn't the perfect spouse *and neither was I*. I know what she didn't do for years in no way justifies what I did. You can stop beating the dead horse.
> 
> It sure can be a recipe for trouble but why not just divorce instead of going to the lengths you have? No kids, no apparent financial issues, etc....I'd walk if I were you. However, not because I think your BS is to blame for the affair or sounds like a terrible person.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iwantmoore said:


> People are allowed to change their minds about kids, both to have them and to not have them. I'm equally entitled to my feelings as she is.


Whether or not to have children is not something that a person and flip on after marriage and expect for their spouse to accept it. Sure their spouse has an opportunity to accept it. But if the spouse continues to feel strongly about the pre-marriage agreement then they have no obligation at all to further consider the other persons new view point.





iwantmoore said:


> For the first time, she actually considered mine and that's a huge step in the right direction.


Do you mean that she considered having a child now?


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

NotLikeYou said:


> Must...... take...... OP....... seriously........
> 
> Iwantmoore, I am so sorry you're here.
> 
> ...


:rofl::smthumbup::toast:

Maybe I don't get out enough but that's gotta be the funniest thing I've read in a long time!:rofl:


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Seems to me you are unapologetic for your affair. This will never be a successful R because you still have one for out the door.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> I was pretty much on board with what you were saying until I got to this, *"Only you can say whether you put so little priority and effort in and on the relationship that it exacerbated his willingness to find justification."*
> 
> Sorry but this is word salad intended to blame the BS the actions and choices of a WS...quit blaming BS's for the actions of another. .


I didn't mean it to be personally aimed at you but the statement is generally true. If my wife packs up a leaves for what ever reason, only I can judge if my actions contributed it to happen. My take on your situation is that your boyfriend didn't have what it takes to ride out some rainy days. Consider this. It took a minimum amount of pressure for him to stray. The commitment and obligations to you required of him was more than he wanted to bear. At least you didn't marry this cat and have kids before you found out. You lucked out my lady and you know it. Be glad you dodged a bullet. 
Again, it doesn't make me the most popular guy on this site but I'm not in the same camp as those who believe the BS never even remotely contributed to the affair. The business I was in put me a position to hear a lot of wayward folks speak, and I concluded a BS's actions does sometimes contribute to cheating as well as a host of other marital problems. If that's not true, how can recommendation to guys to be more alpha and less "nice guy" beta and other changes in behavior work to minimize their spouses cheating. Aren't they basically saying that beta behavior in males fosters the wife attraction to the more alpha male and may ultimately lead to cheating. Think about it.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I didn't mean it to be personally aimed at you but the statement is generally true. If my wife packs up a leaves for what ever reason, only I can judge if my actions contributed it to happen. My take on your situation is that your boyfriend didn't have what it takes to ride out some rainy days. Consider this. It took a minimum amount of pressure for him to stray. The commitment and obligations to you was more than he wanted to bear. At least you didn't marry this cat and have kids before you found out. You lucked out my lady and you know it. Be glad you dodged a bullet.
> Again, it doesn't make me the most popular guy on this site but the business I was in put me a position to hear a lot of wayward folks speak, and I concluded a BS's actions does sometimes contribute to cheating and a host of other marital problems. If that's not true, how can recommendation to guys to be more alpha and less "nice guy" beta and other changes in behavior work to minimize their spouses cheating. Aren't they basically saying that beta behavior in males fosters the wife attraction to the more alpha male and may ultimately lead to cheating. Think about it.


You quoted me but I'm not sure who you're talking to :scratchhead:. I don't have a boyfriend (?) and my WS and I have been married for 20+ years and have raised three children. There was actually a lot of pressure and stress in our marriage at the time of the affair. Doesn't excuse the behavior though.

You are right, I did luck out with my WS. He's a great guy and happy to be married to him.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> You quoted me but I'm not sure who you're talking to :scratchhead:. I don't have a boyfriend (?) and my WS and I have been married for 20+ years and have raised three children. There was actually a lot of pressure and stress in our marriage at the time of the affair. Doesn't excuse the behavior though.
> 
> You are right, I did luck out with my WS. He's a great guy and happy to be married to him.


I negligently got you crossed up with someone else. My apology.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

iwantmoore said:


> We had a very difficult but different conversation about the affair and what led up to it the next day. It was the conversation that we should have had a long time ago. I told her I didn't want to put a gun to her head and that's why I asked to end our marriage. There are some deep seeded issues on her side that aren't worth going into here, reasons why she avoided having them. The fact that she's now willing to address them is a good thing for her regardless of the outcome.
> 
> I do love her and I do care about her too. The first thing on the docket for counseling after the "he's a cheating bastard" and my next apology will be a more serious discussion with an impartial 3rd party on is this truly something you want to do with me or not. If I am not convinced we can work it out or she's doing it ONLY to keep me, I won't let her do it. I would rather her find someone who will be ok with not raising a family. If this horrible situation brought her to face and overcome what she's hidden from and she gets to have a child SHE deserves as well, then something positive will have come from it.
> 
> ...


As I said, its all her, none of this you put on yourself. You blame her 100% You just proved it again, regardless of your 100% your fault disclaimer. Your cheating is 100% on you. But you would have us believe that the demise of the marriage is on her. You say all these horrible things about her trying to get us to believe the downturn in the marriage is her fault, but you don't tell us how you contributed to the downfall of the marriage.

Let her go so she can find someone decent.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> I didn't mean it to be personally aimed at you but the statement is generally true. If my wife packs up a leaves for what ever reason, only I can judge if my actions contributed it to happen.
> 
> Again, it doesn't make me the most popular guy on this site but I'm not in the same camp as those who believe the BS never even remotely contributed to the affair.


You're right. The BS - as is typical in most families - has contributed to a marriage going stale in most cases. Although the cheater is the one who crosses the line. 

I find it interesting, however, that when you talk of YOUR situation, you don't just automatically say you contributed if your wife leaves - you say you have to 'judge' IF your actions contributed.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> You're right. The BS - as is typical in most families - has contributed to a marriage going stale in most cases. Although the cheater is the one who crosses the line.
> 
> I find it interesting, however, that when you talk of YOUR situation, you don't just automatically say you contributed if your wife leaves - you say you have to 'judge' IF your actions contributed.


I don't recollect talking about my situation, at least with my current wife of soon 20 years. Ignorance may be bliss but my gal pulled me out of the gutter, probably saved my life, and its been good. We never have to work on our marriage. Bear in mind, I was born just after WWII making me older than the average person on this site. My wife is a decade younger than me.
What you may be referring to is me describing my first marriage an how I allowed it to get me in an unsavory business where I made the so called POSOM look like a piker. Its not something I'm proud of but was one hell of an education.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

So in the former affair - you played a part in her cheating is that it? Is that what you are saying?


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Do tell what you part to play in it was. I will say I made mistakes with my former but it no way justified her affair....she used it to pursue the affair as did your ex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, I was just responding to your latest post about the BS, saying he/she should see how he/she contributed to the problem, as he/she inevitably did. And in your next statement, if YOUR wife were to leave you, you'd be sure to INVESTIGATE whether you indeed DID have anything to do with her leaving. Everyone ELSE should assume that they drove their spouse to cheat or leave, but YOU would have to take your time and determine if you did.

That is all.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> And in your next statement, if YOUR wife were to leave you, you'd be sure to INVESTIGATE whether you indeed DID have anything to do with her leaving. Everyone ELSE should assume that they drove their spouse to cheat or leave, but YOU would have to take your time and determine if you did.
> 
> That is all.


I think the poor composition of my post prevented my intended point from coming across. What I intended is that only by taking a personal inventory and an honest look at my own behavior would I know if I contributed to her leaving. (this is hypothetical, my wife hasn't left ) I was not trying to set a different standard for myself. I'm saying I would need to do better than simply putting all the blame on her for leaving.
Again, I think the BS are too quick to place 100% of the affair on the WS allowing them to dismiss their possible contribution. Would the spouse still have cheated if the other spouse had made the marriage a priority? Who knows. It may give warm and fuzzy feelings but in a reconciliation or a new relationship how will it pan out if the same behavior continues? Again, who knows. I do know I've seen several post where folks are cheated on in several relationships. I recommend a little self examination.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> I don't recollect talking about my situation, at least with my current wife of soon 20 years. Ignorance may be bliss but my gal pulled me out of the gutter, probably saved my life, and its been good. We never have to work on our marriage. Bear in mind, I was born just after WWII making me older than the average person on this site. My wife is a decade younger than me.
> What you may be referring to is me describing my first marriage an how I allowed it to get me in an unsavory business where I made the so called POSOM look like a piker. Its not something I'm proud of but was one hell of an education.


Honestly, I have no CLUE what situation you were talking about when you said this:


> If my wife packs up a leaves for what ever reason, only I can judge if my actions contributed it to happen.


 and don't really care. You either consider your actions or you don't. Which is it?

I THINK we are saying the same thing, that both partners have responsibility. But you are so obtuse I can't figure it out, lol.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Someone always "wants more". That's how we get forums like this.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Forest said:


> Someone always "wants more". That's how we get forums like this.


And someone with that mentality should stay away from marriage and commitments.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> Honestly, I have no CLUE what situation you were talking about when you said this:
> and don't really care. You either consider your actions or you don't. Which is it?
> 
> I THINK we are saying the same thing, that both partners have responsibility. But you are so obtuse I can't figure it out, lol.


Obviously using myself as the foil in a hypothetical example didn't work as I planned. But like "Geraldine" used to say, "what you see is what you get" Anyway, the defense rest.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

I 'flipped' over this one:

Obviously using myself as the foil in a hypothetical example didn't work as I planned. But like "Geraldine" used to say, "what you see is what you get" Anyway, the defense rest.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

mahike said:


> Let's be honest the OW has not had to deal with you on a day to day basis for years. She is a fantasy for you and in fantasies everything is great and fun and wonderful.
> 
> Your wife has had to deal with your nose hairs in the sink. leaving the seat up and farting under the covers.
> 
> You should get yourself some IC and look at who you really are


This, this, this. No comments on the entire history before, we're getting just one side, and it's just the way it is, it's just not likely to be impartial. But as regards the OW.....^^ this. I am still working on, seeing past/through those - call them, the 'necessary evils' I guess? - of marriage. The kinda "unsexy truths" about living with someone every day, but I speak from experience that, you have to shake out the cobwebs in your head that are telling you, the OW, and a relationship with her, doesn't/wouldn't have ANY of those flaws. It's not apples and oranges...it's more like apples and....I dunno....lawnmowers, lol.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

kenmoore14217 said:


> I 'flipped' over this one:


Remember Chuck Noland (Hanks) in the Castaway: Don't worry Wilson, I'll do all the paddling. You just hang on.


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