# Just found out my wife cheated



## Hurting71

Last Tuesday, 12/15, I found out my wife of 11 years cheated on me. I found out accidentally through Facebook. There was a "filtered private message" that I had never seen that had been sitting there for some time, 2 years to be exact. It was from the fiancé of a friend of my wife's family in Tampa FLA, (we live in PA). I contacted her and the jig was up. I confronted my wife and after lying about it a couple of times she finally admitted her infidelity. My wife visits Florida occasionally without my son and I so she can spend "quality time" with her mother. Two years ago in October was one of those visits, she flew down to surprise her mother. While down there she was to ride over to Daytona with her brother and this family friend Bill, they were there for the "Biketoberfest" that they have every year out there, I have attended a couple of times with them as well. Apparently my wife was caught effing this guy Bill in the hot tub while in Daytona. After she had returned home they planned for him to fly up for a long weekend while I was away fishing in Western NY. I mean, she planned the whole thing! I always suspected something went on down in Florida between them but could never prove anything but him flying up here while I was away?! I just can't even believe it, it's a nightmare. I'm completely crushed, I cry whenever I'm alone, it's the worst, like somebody died, I'm on the verge of tears all the time. I'm mentally exhausted and I can't get the image of her effing this guy out of my head. She is Very remorseful and has been clinging to me all week. Things haven't been that good between us for a while. I'm a very affectionate man and believe that simple human touch is the key to everyone's happiness. we haven't been close, like that, for a few years. she's been very distant but now, all of the sudden she can't keep her hands off of me, lots of hugs and kisses and telling me she is sorry and that she loves me more than anything. I want to believe her but I'm having a difficult time in doing so. Wow, this is really getting long so I guess I'll stop it here. I'm really effed up right now and I really don't even know what to do. I need help and good advice.


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## tech-novelist

How many children do you have, and how old are they?


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## Hurting71

We have 1 child together, a 6yr old boy.


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## GusPolinski

Sorry man.

Just so we're clear, who was it that busted your wife and this Bill guy going at it in the hot tub? His fiancée?

And was it also her FB message to your wife that you found detailing everything? What was the tone of the conversation?

What has your wife's demeanor been like since the confront? Do you feel like you have a solid timeline w/ respect to the affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knobcreek

It's really common for them to hug on you, kiss you after they're caught cheating. They've been manipulating you the entire relationship this way so why wouldn't it work now?

She's likely not out of contact with him, they'll hug on you, tell you how they're "happy this happened, because now we can work on the relationship and it makes her realize how much she loves you, blah blah blah", at the same time she's texting him about their next meetup.

I'm not sure if you want to reconcile, but first you need to find out if the affair is still ongoing, how many affairs she has had, is she capable of being honest?

How many kids do you have? Sorry you're here, but you're not the first to deal with this, women in general are cheating a lot, and most married men I know have been in the same spot you are now.


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## workindad

OP- sorry for the spot you are in. I know it sucks.

You say your wife is remorseful as she can't keep her hands off you now. However, she was distant for years, didn't admit to the cheating, lied about when you confronted her and planned for repeat performances from her lover all while married to you.

That sounds more like she is sorry she got caught. There is a difference.

I suggest
Getting checked for STDs- both of you.
doing a hard 180 now and doing that for you.
Focus on yourself and your son for the present.
Take some time to think about what you want and to work through your feelings- do not rug sweep this.
Ask your wife for a complete timeline. I doubt you have all of the information yet and you have a right to know everything you are being asked to forgive including other men you don't know about.
Tell her you will want a polygraph test to confirm her story and see how she reacts. Be prepared to follow that up.
Inform her lovers SO. She has a right to know.
Speak to an attorney and check your options.
Is she still in communication with her lover? It is odd that she saved the message from him. It must be a special reminder to her as it sounds like she was pretty good at covering her tracks and lying to you for several years.
If she is still communicating with her lover- MC is a waste of money and time.
Insist on complete transparency with her social media, phone, email accounts, etc.


Good luck
WD


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## aine

Hurting71, really sorry you are going through this. You have come to the right place, many people on here with lots of wisdom and advice. I am not an old hand at this by any means but if anything this place will be somewhere you can vent and get advice.

YOu have to be sure that this A is completely over with the OM, is it? She must come completely clean about all encounters, there may be more, it is common for cheaters to trickle truth for various reasons.

Is she remorseful or just sorry she got caught?
There must never be any contact with him, via social networking, mobiles, family gatherings, etc
If necessary get her to write a no contact letter, block him on social network sites etc
Is he married, if so, his wife/fiance must be informed about this

You are probably at the stage you don't know whether to work on it or call it quits, do not make a decision now
She is all over you because she got caught and knows the consequences are coming. The frantic effort to bond with you is called hysterical bonding and is a reaction to the crisis in the marriage
She must be like an open book from here on out (with no promise of R from you)
There must be full disclosure and access to computer/ipad/mobile/email, etc
All passwords must be given to you, 
Where she is and what she is doing must be communicated to you
It is her job from here on out to earn your trust back again
You must go to counselling together to work through your issues, you have to see what were the underlying issues in your M, though that is no excuse for her cheating.

If it helps you get through the pain, consider IC for yourself.

Really sorry you are here, take your time to go through the grieving process, the pain, anger etc
Keep reading and posting


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## Hurting71

Still don't know who busted them but I want to find out. The facebook message was to me from Bill's fiancé asking if I was home when he flew up here, that's what he told her. She seems remorseful and no I don't really have a solid timeline.


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## GusPolinski

Hurting71 said:


> Still don't know who busted them but I want to find out. The facebook message was to me from Bill's fiancé asking if I was home when he flew up here, that's what he told her. She seems remorseful and no I don't really have a solid timeline.


Hmm...

Has your wife been answering your questions? I'd think not if you still don't know who it was that busted them, because that's one of the first questions that I'd have asked.

Is she being transparent w/ all of her electronic devices, along w/ her social media and e-mail accounts, etc?

Have you exposed the affair to friends or family?

Where is your head at w/ respect to divorce vs reconciliation?


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## aine

Hurting71 said:


> Still don't know who busted them but I want to find out. The facebook message was to me from Bill's fiancé asking if I was home when he flew up here, that's what he told her. She seems remorseful and no I don't really have a solid timeline.


Tell her if she wants you to ever trust her again then she has to spill the beans and sit down and write out a timeline. You need this to help you get past this and heal. If she doesn't do this then she is not remorseful and tell her you will consider divorce.


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## Hurting71

I spoke with Bill's fiancé and she has been able to account for his whereabouts since this happened. She received a call back then from the owner of the house about what went on. She then PM'd me through Facebook about it all. Like I said, I just found the message in MY messages. They live in Florida and I think she, the fiancé, would know if he was gone for a few days. My wife's family is aware and apparently told Bill not to come around anymore so I don't believe my wife has seen Bill on any of her visits since then. My wife told me she hasn't talked to him since then.


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## MattMatt

OK.

First things first. This is either her first affair, or the first one that you are aware of. So, as has been suggested, STD/HIV tests are a must for the both of you.

I will suggest having a DNA test on your child.

Not necessarily to prove that you are the father, but to prove to your wife how badly she has f**ked up your marriage. To prove to her that you cannot trust anything she has said or done since you got married.

Counselling, both individual and couple's counselling will be of assistance.

You will need to identify exactly why your wife has been very distant with you. Has she had other lovers? Or was she feeling guilty and sort of expecting you to find out?

In fact, how did you find out? Did your wife engineer this situation so that you would find out without her having to expose her infidelity to you?

If you want to reconcile, that is doable. But every other option is open to you, also.

Good luck. And please remember we will be here for you.


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## GusPolinski

Hurting71 said:


> I spoke with Bill's fiancé and she has been able to account for his whereabouts since this happened. She received a call back then from the owner of the house about what went on. She then PM'd me through Facebook about it all. Like I said, I just found the message in MY messages. They live in Florida and I think she, the fiancé, would know if he was gone for a few days. *My wife's family is aware and apparently told Bill not to come around anymore so I don't believe my wife has seen Bill on any of her visits since then.* My wife told me she hasn't talked to him since then.


How long have they known? Was it you that told them or did they already know?

Sounds like they've known for a while but didn't tell you.


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## badmemory

The first thing you need to understand is that newly betrayed spouses often make mistakes that they regret in the wake of their devastation. The mind movies, the anger, the desperation to save the marriage; all of the conflicting thoughts and emotions - can lead to unsound decisions.

The best piece of advice I can give you is to take your time in deciding what to do. At least a couple of weeks; maybe months. If you think you will consider R, don't tell your wife that right now. Make no promises to her. Don't have sex with her. Don't lash out at her. For the time being, it's vital that she experiences that sinking feeling that she may very well lose her husband for cheating on him.

But if you eventually decide to "attempt" R, your wife must earn that opportunity for a second chance. She will do that by accepting consequences, owning what she did and demonstrating unconditional remorse. Short of that; your mindset should be that you're heading straight to divorce.

Other posters will define those consequences and help you determine if she is truly remorseful. 

Sorry you're here.


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## NoMoreTears4me

The pain sucks. I know all about the tears and feelings of betrayal. Worst feeling in my life. To have someone you love destroy you like this is horrible. I understand completely. If it makes you feel better you are not alone. It happens to the best of us and the best of marriages.

Time does make it better. You are going to get some great advice on this site from people who have been there. Try your best to follow that advice.

Your wife is not sorry for what she did. She is sorry she got caught. If you had not caught her it would have continued.

If you decide to reconcile you have to decide whether for the rest of your lives you can live with it. Will you ever be able to trust her again? 
When she is an hour late coming home one day can you stop your mind from wondering where she is? Will you always question what she tells you?

My ex deceived me in so many ways. She destroyed our lives and our children's lives. The act of adultery is a selfish act and once it is discovered it is followed by another selfish act. Self preservation. There is no concern for you at all. Do you think she thought of your feelings when she was in that hot tub?

Do yourself a BIG favor. Talk to an attorney now and prepare. I know you don't want to. God knows I did not either. 

Keep posting and reading all you can here. You will be amazed in how your story is so similar with others. Learn from the people here. You will not regret it


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## Pluto2

Oh I am so sorry you find yourself here.

You have some good advice here. Take your time and focus on you. You don't have to decide anything today.

You need to go see your MD. to get tested, discuss anxiety issues, sleeping etc. You have to be functioning physically to make big decisions.

The 180 is a form of detachment. I know it sounds a bit counter-intuitive but when your W was effing Bill, Bob, whoever, in the hot tub she wasn't thinking of you, or your home, or your son or your marriage. She was thinking of her. Now that she knows you know, she is still thinking of her, and how she can come out of this the best. HER, HER, HER. And I bet during the last two years you were thinking of her, and your family, and your home.

She has broken trust and betrayed you and lied to you for two years. That's a lot. So to help you deal with the broken trust and make a rational decision of how you want to proceed-we detach. It protects your heart, helps clear your head and gives you the space to decide how you want to proceed.

Her family knew! Yikes. So her family thinks its fine to lie and deceive your spouse and family-great role models there.


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## tom67

As the two previous guys have said talk to lawyers and take your time.
Eat as well as you can.


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## Hurting71

they have known since Daytona in the hot tub, they were all there together at a friends house.


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## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> How long have they known? Was it you that told them or did they already know?
> 
> Sounds like they've known for a while but didn't tell you.


If this is true that they knew and didn't tell you tell them to go f^ck themselves.


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## convert

Hurting71 said:


> they have known since Daytona in the hot tub, they were all there together at a friends house.


and that was 2 years ago?
they have known that long?

No christmas presents for them.:frown2:
or just a christmas card that says "eat sh!t and die">

so then maybe some more exposure to help you get support might be a good thing.
Tell your parents/family so they know and can help you.
this exposure also aids in keeping the affair dead.


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## Hurting71

Thanks to everyone so far, I'll try and respond to all as soon as I can.


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## badmemory

tom67 said:


> If this is true that they knew and didn't tell you tell them to go f^ck themselves.


Yep. You have every right to disown her family because of that (not necessarily her too, but certainly you). I'm not sure if even a sincere apology from them would change that for me. 

And if that's what you decide to do, your wife will have to accept it. That's just one of the many consequences she has brought on herself.


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## Hurting71

Yes, October 2013. it does really bother me but it is secondary and something I will deal with later.


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## Marduk

I'm so sorry man. 

Here's what you do... Aside from listen to some of these awesome posters like Gus.

#1 Get some space from your wife. Right now. You need to get straight in your head about YOUR life and how you want it to be. You can't do this with her in your face and all over you. Kick her out of the bedroom, or you leave. Don't spend time with her. Do not try to heal yourself with her attention or affection. Only YOU can heal YOU. Move most conversations to texting -- you'll be able to keep your cool and your head straight better.

#2 Text her TODAY and demand a full and complete timeline with this affair and any others, and to write the OM a no contact letter for you to read. Tell her you know everything, or will find out everything, and if she omits anything, you will leave. Give her 24 hours to pull this together, with as much detail as YOU need.

#3 Text or call her family and tell them that they have not only betrayed you and your marriage, but their grandchild as well. Silence about the affair is condoning it and allowing it to continue. These people are toxic and to no longer be a part of your life from this point forward.

In the meantime... Know that this might not have been her only affair (she seemed pretty brazen about it which means it was either going on for some time, or she planned to leave you for him, or more likely that it was one in a long line of other men). 

And the biggest thing you need to understand: she is only remorseful because she got caught. If the affair was over before you found out and she was remorseful, she would have told you, and would have tried to repair the marriage then. She didn't.

I'm so sorry. Go dark on her. Talk to a lawyer so you know your options. DO NOT LEAN ON HER FOR SUPPORT. Get a buddy you can call. Post here. Do what you need to do, but disconnect from this woman *even if your intention is to reconcile.* Trust me on this.


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## Sparta

Whatever you do please listen to what these people have to say if you second-guess them old you're going to do is make things worse for you.
Everybody here's been through what you are now going through. Just remember you will not get the complete truth from her. Unless you take the right action.! FIRST is go talk to the lawyer now. THEN file for divorce.! This will get her out of the fog. And don't worry every state has a certain time limit is a six months to a year for divorce is to be final. You can always go back to your lawyer and tell him to withdraw the divorce. If she isn't hasn't faced consequences things will not get better. And you will never get The whole truth,
Posted via Mobile Device


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## badmemory

marduk said:


> I'm so sorry. Go dark on her. Talk to a lawyer so you know your options. DO NOT LEAN ON HER FOR SUPPORT. Get a buddy you can call. Post here. Do what you need to do, but disconnect from this woman *even if your intention is to reconcile.* Trust me on this.


Here's why this is so important OP.

Not only will she be all the more grateful for a second chance after this; she will have no doubt what will happen if she does this again. And, she will realize that she's not going to be able to rug sweep and escape consequences.


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## arbitrator

Pluto2 said:


> Oh I am so sorry you find yourself here.
> 
> You have some good advice here. Take your time and focus on you. You don't have to decide anything today.
> 
> You need to go see your MD. to get tested, discuss anxiety issues, sleeping etc. You have to be functioning physically to make big decisions.
> 
> The 180 is a form of detachment. I know it sounds a bit counter-intuitive but when your W was effing Bill, Bob, whoever, in the hot tub she wasn't thinking of you, or your home, or your son or your marriage. She was thinking of her. Now that she knows you know, she is still thinking of her, and how she can come out of this the best. HER, HER, HER. And I bet during the last two years you were thinking of her, and your family, and your home.
> 
> She has broken trust and betrayed you and lied to you for two years. That's a lot. So to help you deal with the broken trust and make a rational decision of how you want to proceed-we detach. It protects your heart, helps clear your head and gives you the space to decide how you want to proceed.
> 
> *Her family knew! Yikes. So her family thinks its fine to lie and deceive your spouse and family-great role models there.*


*Then it should certainly stand to reason that her immediate family could well be into cheating as one of its acceptable social norms!

You deserve far better out of life! Allow yourself to accept the gift of freedom from her, and the gift of loving acceptance from someone who will truly love you for who you are!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hurting71

I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her. I asked her to get me answers ASAP and we would discuss them when she did. I told her that we couldn't move forward with anything until I had these answers. The list of questions is below.

1.	When did your affair with Bill start and end? When and where did you sneak your first kiss?
2.	What did you say to yourself to justify your affair with Bill?
3.	What did Bill offer you that I never did?
4.	What did you do with Bill that you never do/did with me?
5.	What did you tell Bill about us, our problems, and our marriage? 
6.	Did you ever tell Bill that you didn’t love me anymore?
7.	How did Bill make you feel when you were with him?
8.	Did your affair with Bill provide you with something you felt you needed?
9.	Did you and Bill talk about a future together?
10.	What did you feel for Bill, what did you see in him that I couldn’t give you, what made him the one that you decided to risk everything you had for?
11.	Would you have left me for Bill if he had asked you to?
12.	Did you ever want to or think about leaving me to be with Bill?
13.	What did you like about yourself when you were with Bill? How were you different?
14.	What did you find out about yourself after your affair with Bill?
15.	After the first time you f***ed Bill, did you feel guilty at all? If you did feel guilty, why did you go back and f*** him a few more times?
16.	Did you think about me at all while you were with Bill?
17.	Were you ever worried about losing me?
18.	Did you think I would ever find out that you had an affair with Bill?
19.	Did you think I would NEVER find out that you had an affair with Bill?
20.	Did you ever want me to find out about your affair with Bill?
21.	Did you ever consider telling me about your affair with Bill?
22.	What was it like to keep your affair with Bill a secret for so long?
23.	What was it like for you to have a relationship with Bill and me at the same time? 
24.	What was it like to see me every day knowing you had an affair with Bill?
25.	Did you ever consider our son Connor and how this could affect the rest of his life when you decided to have an affair with Bill?
26.	Was your affair with Bill the only time you cheated on me, our marriage and our future or are there other times and other men that you have done this with? 
27.	Do you think this might happen again with someone else?
28.	What will you do if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
29.	Do you understand, at all, how this has affected me? 
30.	Do you think our marriage can be repaired?
31.	Do you really still want me in your life or do you want me with you for Connor?
32.	What do you value the most in our marriage?
33.	If I were to walk away from you and our marriage what would you consider to be your biggest loss?
34.	What do you think the hardest part about staying married will be?
35.	Are you willing to be patient while I try to learn/figure out how to forgive you?
36.	What do you think it would be like if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had an affair?
37.	What will you think of me if I decide to stay and reconcile? 
38.	Why didn’t you just leave me like you always said you would rather than put me through this?
39.	How did you feel when I told you that I knew what you did?
40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you?


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## Chaparral

When and why has the distance between growing between you two? I'm concerned this is t her first rodeo.


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## bryanp

If the roles were reversed would she have been so accepting and forgiving as you? She totally disrespect you and your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## Evinrude58

I don't know if you should be so angry about them not telling you. It's a hard thing to tell someone and they do have loyalty to your wife. I'd have told you if I was them, but.... It would have been hard.

You are in a position where you are almost 99% likely to screw things up because of your emotional state right now. You are feeling like you are losing your entire life and future. You're feeling betrayed and scared to death of losing your family at the same time. You are thinking your whole life with her is a sham, and probably feeling guilty because you're thinking of a thousand reasons that this is somehow your fault because you neglected her or some other b.s.

My guess is that eventually she'll even blame you for this crap.

I know firsthand how hard it is to follow advice from people that don't know you, and follow advice that is totally against what you want in your heart. 

You want her to be truly remorseful-- whether she is or not, you need help to see. Your emotions won't let you look at her actions and see the truth. She may be remorseful. You've got to listen to guys that have been through this before to determine if she is. The fact that she has been so distant all this time points to a woman that has fallen out of love with you.

If she is just not wanting any consequences for her betrayal, this is likely what you're seeing, and things with your marriage may on the surface appear better, but the reality is she just wanted to get her security blanket back and doesn't really live you and will just cheat again, likely with someone else.

You'll wind up in the same shape you are now. 

Please, don't think that your life is over because if this. You will get through it, whether with your wife or without her. Don't let this shake your faith in yourself. Know you are not the only person to have this happen and it truly is not your fault. Know for sure that God and people that love you will help you get through this, even though it will be the most pain you've ever endured. 

This kind of thing does stuff to a man that is too awful to understand unless you've felt it before. Take your time. You've experienced a traumatic event and can't think clearly. Post often and get some help.

Very sorry--- I've been there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

Hurting71 said:


> Still don't know who busted them but I want to find out. The facebook message was to me from Bill's fiancé asking if I was home when he flew up here, that's what he told her. She seems remorseful and no I don't really have a solid timeline.


The timeline is that she has been in an affair with this guy for at least two years - probably more. Expect that she bedded Bill every time she was in FL and a few time when you were away from home.


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## sparrow555

Hurting71 said:


> Last Tuesday, 12/15, I found out my wife of 11 years cheated on me. I found out accidentally through Facebook. There was a "filtered private message" that I had never seen that had been sitting there for some time, 2 years to be exact. It was from the fiancé of a friend of my wife's family in Tampa FLA, (we live in PA). I contacted her and the jig was up. I confronted my wife and after lying about it a couple of times she finally admitted her infidelity. My wife visits Florida occasionally without my son and I so she can spend "quality time" with her mother. Two years ago in October was one of those visits, she flew down to surprise her mother. While down there she was to ride over to Daytona with her brother and this family friend Bill, they were there for the "Biketoberfest" that they have every year out there, I have attended a couple of times with them as well. Apparently my wife was caught effing this guy Bill in the hot tub while in Daytona. After she had returned home they planned for him to fly up for a long weekend while I was away fishing in Western NY. I mean, she planned the whole thing! I always suspected something went on down in Florida between them but could never prove anything but him flying up here while I was away?! I just can't even believe it, it's a nightmare. I'm completely crushed, I cry whenever I'm alone, it's the worst, like somebody died, I'm on the verge of tears all the time. I'm mentally exhausted and I can't get the image of her effing this guy out of my head. She is Very remorseful and has been clinging to me all week. Things haven't been that good between us for a while. I'm a very affectionate man and believe that simple human touch is the key to everyone's happiness. we haven't been close, like that, for a few years. she's been very distant but now, all of the sudden she can't keep her hands off of me, lots of hugs and kisses and telling me she is sorry and that she loves me more than anything. I want to believe her but I'm having a difficult time in doing so. Wow, this is really getting long so I guess I'll stop it here. I'm really effed up right now and I really don't even know what to do. I need help and good advice.



She got got and is managing you with sex. That is not called remorse. She is doing crisis management. She will be back to normal once she is sure you won't leave her.

If she was remorseful, she would have confessed sometime during this time on her own. She flew to be with this guy. You probably have only a peek into the extent of the affair she had with him.


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## Pluto2

Hurting71 said:


> I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her. I asked her to get me answers ASAP and we would discuss them when she did. I told her that we couldn't move forward with anything until I had these answers. The list of questions is below.
> 
> 1.	When did your affair with Bill start and end? When and where did you sneak your first kiss?
> 2.	What did you say to yourself to justify your affair with Bill?Don't bother asking this now. She will lie
> 3.	What did Bill offer you that I never did?Take out the "that I never did" you are opening up an opportunity for her to shift the fault for the A on to you. She must own it
> 4.	What did you do with Bill that you never do/did with me?
> 5.	What did you tell Bill about us, our problems, and our marriage?
> 6.	Did you ever tell Bill that you didn’t love me anymore?
> 7.	How did Bill make you feel when you were with him?
> 8.	Did your affair with Bill provide you with something you felt you needed?
> 9.	Did you and Bill talk about a future together?
> 10.	What did you feel for Bill, what did you see in him that I couldn’t give you, what made him the one that you decided to risk everything you had for?again, take out the "that I couldn't give you
> 11.	Would you have left me for Bill if he had asked you to?
> 12.	Did you ever want to or think about leaving me to be with Bill?
> 13.	What did you like about yourself when you were with Bill? How were you different?
> 14.	What did you find out about yourself after your affair with Bill?
> 15.	After the first time you f***ed Bill, did you feel guilty at all? If you did feel guilty, why did you go back and f*** him a few more times?
> 16.	Did you think about me at all while you were with Bill?
> 17.	Were you ever worried about losing me?
> 18.	Did you think I would ever find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 19.	Did you think I would NEVER find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 20.	Did you ever want me to find out about your affair with Bill?
> 21.	Did you ever consider telling me about your affair with Bill?
> 22.	What was it like to keep your affair with Bill a secret for so long?
> 23.	What was it like for you to have a relationship with Bill and me at the same time?
> 24.	What was it like to see me every day knowing you had an affair with Bill?
> 25.	Did you ever consider our son Connor and how this could affect the rest of his life when you decided to have an affair with Bill?
> 26.	Was your affair with Bill the only time you cheated on me, our marriage and our future or are there other times and other men that you have done this with?
> 27.	Do you think this might happen again with someone else?
> 28.	What will you do if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
> 29.	Do you understand, at all, how this has affected me?
> 30.	Do you think our marriage can be repaired?
> 31.	Do you really still want me in your life or do you want me with you for Connor?
> 32.	What do you value the most in our marriage?
> 33.	If I were to walk away from you and our marriage what would you consider to be your biggest loss?
> 34.	What do you think the hardest part about staying married will be?
> 35.	Are you willing to be patient while I try to learn/figure out how to forgive you?Or better, while I figure out IF I can forgive you-she must earn any respect back
> 36.	What do you think it would be like if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had an affair?
> 37.	What will you think of me if I decide to stay and reconcile? Irrelevant. Reconciliation is your gift to give
> 38.	Why didn’t you just leave me like you always said you would rather than put me through this?
> 39.	How did you feel when I told you that I knew what you did?
> 40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you?




OP, please try to remember her betrayal is not your fault. She didn't cheat on you because you neglected her, or didn't remember a birthday, or worked too many hours, or didn't communicate with her. She cheated because she CHOSE to. She purposefully climbed into the hottub with another man and screwed him. There was no accident. Then she purposefully lied to you for two years, (all with the help and blessing of her family-we bring that up so much because family dynamics tend to mean a lot when infidelity is involved).

Maybe she's spoiled, maybe she feels entitled. But do not at the point allow her to assume you will reconcile. She must know there are consequences for her action or she will cheat again. (Mine did). No one is saying throwing he cheating a$$ out the door on Christmas Eve.


----------



## sparrow555

And tell her that you will have her take a lie detector test to confirm that she is not lying about any of the answers. One more lie and you will file for divorce. Make it absolutely clear.


----------



## ThePheonix

Hurting71 said:


> I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her.


Here's a question for you Dawg. Why do you want to stay with a woman that has proven you can never trust her? But the central question you need to ask her is why she lost romantic interest in you. She could have been had way before Bill came into the picture.
You know the two, no three of the happiest people on earth at that particular moment in time are you, her, and Bill when you left on the fishing trip. You know there was some hot and heavy f-ing going on. If they were getting it on in a "semi" public hot tube, it was Katie bar the door when they were alone. 
Have you check to see if you paid for Bill round trip airline ticket. I'd bet those two romping around in your bed while you were fishing was just the beginning with you footing at least part of the bill.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her. I asked her to get me answers ASAP and we would discuss them when she did. I told her that we couldn't move forward with anything until I had these answers. The list of questions is below.
> 
> 1.	When did your affair with Bill start and end? When and where did you sneak your first kiss?
> 2.	What did you say to yourself to justify your affair with Bill?
> 3.	What did Bill offer you that I never did?
> 4.	What did you do with Bill that you never do/did with me?
> 5.	What did you tell Bill about us, our problems, and our marriage?
> 6.	Did you ever tell Bill that you didn’t love me anymore?
> 7.	How did Bill make you feel when you were with him?
> 8.	Did your affair with Bill provide you with something you felt you needed?
> 9.	Did you and Bill talk about a future together?
> 10.	What did you feel for Bill, what did you see in him that I couldn’t give you, what made him the one that you decided to risk everything you had for?
> 11.	Would you have left me for Bill if he had asked you to?
> 12.	Did you ever want to or think about leaving me to be with Bill?
> 13.	What did you like about yourself when you were with Bill? How were you different?
> 14.	What did you find out about yourself after your affair with Bill?
> 15.	After the first time you f***ed Bill, did you feel guilty at all? If you did feel guilty, why did you go back and f*** him a few more times?
> 16.	Did you think about me at all while you were with Bill?
> 17.	Were you ever worried about losing me?
> 18.	Did you think I would ever find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 19.	Did you think I would NEVER find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 20.	Did you ever want me to find out about your affair with Bill?
> 21.	Did you ever consider telling me about your affair with Bill?
> 22.	What was it like to keep your affair with Bill a secret for so long?
> 23.	What was it like for you to have a relationship with Bill and me at the same time?
> 24.	What was it like to see me every day knowing you had an affair with Bill?
> 25.	Did you ever consider our son Connor and how this could affect the rest of his life when you decided to have an affair with Bill?
> 26.	Was your affair with Bill the only time you cheated on me, our marriage and our future or are there other times and other men that you have done this with?
> 27.	Do you think this might happen again with someone else?
> 28.	What will you do if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
> 29.	Do you understand, at all, how this has affected me?
> 30.	Do you think our marriage can be repaired?
> 31.	Do you really still want me in your life or do you want me with you for Connor?
> 32.	What do you value the most in our marriage?
> 33.	If I were to walk away from you and our marriage what would you consider to be your biggest loss?
> 34.	What do you think the hardest part about staying married will be?
> 35.	Are you willing to be patient while I try to learn/figure out how to forgive you?
> 36.	What do you think it would be like if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had an affair?
> 37.	What will you think of me if I decide to stay and reconcile?
> 38.	Why didn’t you just leave me like you always said you would rather than put me through this?
> 39.	How did you feel when I told you that I knew what you did?
> 40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you?


No. No. No. Just ****ing no.

"By this time tomorrow, send me a document with a complete timeline of events of your interactions with ****head. With complete sexual details and what happened when. If you do not provide this, or you omit events or change things to make it seem less bad than reality, I will know, and I will leave immediately, and tell everyone about it. You will include any other men that you've cheated on me with -- I will find out if you are lying. You will also write ****head a letter stipulating no further contact between you and him and let me read it before you send it, and if you contact him further I will know."

End of communication for that day.


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> No. No. No. Just ****ing no.
> 
> "By this time tomorrow, send me a document with a complete timeline of events of your interactions with ****head. With complete sexual details and what happened when. If you do not provide this, or you omit events or change things to make it seem less bad than reality, I will know, and I will leave immediately, and tell everyone about it. You will include any other men that you've cheated on me with -- I will find out if you are lying. You will also write ****head a letter stipulating no further contact between you and him and let me read it before you send it, and if you contact him further I will know."
> 
> End of communication for that day.


I agree.....This makes more sense to me.

I can smell the weakness in the previous questions.


----------



## NoMoreTears4me

Pluto2 said:


> Right now, don't ask any why questions because they will be lies (she has proven she is good at that) to save herself pain.


So true. That is all I had were why questions. You will not get an answer that makes you feel better. The worst of what she has done she will not tell you.

Also once a cheater always a cheater. She WILL do it again. 

Don't make the mistakes I did. Deal with the pain and move on. 

Its hard, oh my god is it hard. I am only 3 months in and I still hurt. But I am much better than I was. 

I cant stand to look at her now. She disgusts me. I still love her but I do not like her at all.


----------



## NoMoreTears4me

One more thing...

Someone on here told me to accept the marriage is over. I was told once I did that I would be able to move forward.

Its true. When you can accept that you cant fix this and the wife you knew is dead, you can move ahead.


----------



## Pluto2

NoMoreTears4me said:


> One more thing...
> 
> Someone on here told me to accept the marriage is over. I was told once I did that I would be able to move forward.
> 
> Its true. When you can accept that you cant fix this and the wife you knew is dead, you can move ahead.


True.

Look, we are not here drumming the divorce bandwagon.
The hard, sad truth is that the marriage you had before her infidelity is indeed dead.

If she is truly remorseful, honest, transparent and willing to do the hard work, it is possible to grow into a new marriage-but so far she isn't doing well in that regard.


----------



## badmemory

Hurting71 said:


> I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her. I asked her to get me answers ASAP and we would discuss them when she did. I told her that we couldn't move forward with anything until I had these answers. The list of questions is below.
> 
> 1.	When did your affair with Bill start and end? When and where did you sneak your first kiss?
> 2.	What did you say to yourself to justify your affair with Bill?
> 3.	What did Bill offer you that I never did?
> 4.	What did you do with Bill that you never do/did with me?
> 5.	What did you tell Bill about us, our problems, and our marriage?
> 6.	Did you ever tell Bill that you didn’t love me anymore?
> 7.	How did Bill make you feel when you were with him?
> 8.	Did your affair with Bill provide you with something you felt you needed?
> 9.	Did you and Bill talk about a future together?
> 10.	What did you feel for Bill, what did you see in him that I couldn’t give you, what made him the one that you decided to risk everything you had for?
> 11.	Would you have left me for Bill if he had asked you to?
> 12.	Did you ever want to or think about leaving me to be with Bill?
> 13.	What did you like about yourself when you were with Bill? How were you different?
> 14.	What did you find out about yourself after your affair with Bill?
> 15.	After the first time you f***ed Bill, did you feel guilty at all? If you did feel guilty, why did you go back and f*** him a few more times?
> 16.	Did you think about me at all while you were with Bill?
> 17.	Were you ever worried about losing me?
> 18.	Did you think I would ever find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 19.	Did you think I would NEVER find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 20.	Did you ever want me to find out about your affair with Bill?
> 21.	Did you ever consider telling me about your affair with Bill?
> 22.	What was it like to keep your affair with Bill a secret for so long?
> 23.	What was it like for you to have a relationship with Bill and me at the same time?
> 24.	What was it like to see me every day knowing you had an affair with Bill?
> 25.	Did you ever consider our son Connor and how this could affect the rest of his life when you decided to have an affair with Bill?
> 26.	Was your affair with Bill the only time you cheated on me, our marriage and our future or are there other times and other men that you have done this with?
> 27.	Do you think this might happen again with someone else?
> 28.	What will you do if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
> 29.	Do you understand, at all, how this has affected me?
> 30.	Do you think our marriage can be repaired?
> 31.	Do you really still want me in your life or do you want me with you for Connor?
> 32.	What do you value the most in our marriage?
> 33.	If I were to walk away from you and our marriage what would you consider to be your biggest loss?
> 34.	What do you think the hardest part about staying married will be?
> 35.	Are you willing to be patient while I try to learn/figure out how to forgive you?
> 36.	What do you think it would be like if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had an affair?
> 37.	What will you think of me if I decide to stay and reconcile?
> 38.	Why didn’t you just leave me like you always said you would rather than put me through this?
> 39.	How did you feel when I told you that I knew what you did?
> 40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you?


OP,

I would wait to ask any detailed questions other than asking her for a time line. She needs time to simmer.

And, I wouldn't ask her any questions like number 35 and 37 for a while. They portray weakness. As for as you should be concerned, you're not worried about what she thinks or feels until you make a decision on whether to R or not.


----------



## ButtPunch

badmemory said:


> OP,
> As for as you should be concerned, you're not worried about what she thinks or feels until you make a decision on whether to R or not.


That decision should not be made anytime soon while you are in an emotional mess.


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## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> That decision should not be made anytime soon while you are in an emotional mess.


And that decision should not be made without asking her why you should bother to reconcile after a multi-year affair.

Hint: she'll probably respond with things like "I love you" and "I'm so sorry" which will be a big clue.

Because those things are about her, not about you, and should give you at least pause for thought.


----------



## LosingHim

I've said this a million times and I'll say it again. 

If you want FULL disclosure, full details of everything......tell her right now you want a divorce. You don't have to MEAN it. But she has to THINK it.

I didn't disclose my full "affair" until my husband brought up separation. That is when I finally had the epiphany that he deserved to know everything I'd been hiding for a couple of years. Pretty ****ty of me that it took that for me to finally realize he was worth the truth, but, that's what happened. I always thought I could continue lying and hiding as long as he didn't know the WHOLE truth. If he didn't know the whole truth, I could continue with my lie. I know that makes me sound awful, and yeah, I am in that regard. I have nothing but regrets in that area. But threatening separation is the ONLY thing that forced my hand! 

Only you can decide if you want to stay and work this out. But please, do not make that decision until you have ALL facts. If you don't force her to come clean about everything, you'll find out later down the road that there was more. TRUST ME. Don't demand she tell you, but don't ignore it either. Just let separation or divorce hang in the air. 

Her actions and hers alone will tell you what you need to know. Being affectionate and attentive to you is her way of trying to show you she loves you. I know, I did it. And trust me, her affection towards you is her trying to get you to forget about what happened. "See!!?? I LOVE YOU!!" "Don't throw me away, I LOVE YOU!" I know, because I did this too. 

When you threaten divorce or separation, WATCH HER ACTIONS. Does she get mad and Throw things? Or does she break down and cry? Does she start blaming you? Or does she own full responsibility for what she did? Does she go running back to the other man? Does she willingly leave? Does she tell you she’ll give you time? Does she ask what she can do to fix it? And what does she do proactively to fix HERSELF? 

She may be sorry. She may just be sorry she got caught. She may feel like crap. But you’re not gonna get any REAL answers, real reaction, real remorse until she’s forced to say everything she did and you give her an ultimatum.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

I know that with a child involved you'd like nothing more to be able to forgive her and that she never cheats on you again. There's a problem with actually having both of these things happen though.

She can tell you that she didn't mean for it to happen and she's sorry all she wants. The facts say otherwise.

When she got into that hot tub there is NO WAY she did not realize that her having sex with this man was not a possible outcome. If you've been drinking and you then get in a hot tub with the opposite sex, sex is way up on the list of possible outcomes. So she got into that hot tub with the intent of this possibly happening. Then ta da, it happens.

She can tell you that she's been guilt ridden ever since. I also find this hard to believe because she was actively planning on meeting this man AGAIN. If she says that she only wanted to talk to him and would not have had sex with him AGAIN, I call bullsh!t. Him flying up to meet with your wife would also have the same expectation of having sex as a possible outcome. He wasn't going to hop on a plane to play tiddlywinks with her.

So she had sex with him at least once, was planning on meeting him again to have sex. NOW she's sorry... Sorry that she got caught is more like it.

If you want ANY chance of a successful R you'd better lay down some serious consequences. Full disclosure followed by the threat of a polygraph. I say threat because if she out right refuses, or she starts to TT you to not have to take the test, you'll know that there's more she's not told you.

She gives you all passwords. She signs D papers in which she admits to the adultery. I know this may not hold up in court, but it's symbolic. You'll be implying that that you will D her on a repeat offence and have it in writing that she admits to cheating. I'd video record her as she signed it also. To head of any rewrite of history in the future.

You have your work cut out for you my friend. How she went about this affair make me think that she's a high risk for a repeat. It also has me wondering if this was her first rodeo...


----------



## Roselyn

OP, how old are you and your wife? Does your wife work?

She had been cheating on you longer. Having sex and being caught in that hot tub is not the first time that they had sex. They just became bold and took their affair in the open. She flew her lover to your hometown when you were away. They had sex throughout your absence. She is not sorry for her affair, but sorry that she got caught.

You need to see a divorce lawyer immediately to protect your rights. See a psychologist to set your mind in the right direction. You wife will continue to skew the events to hide her activities. You need to be in the right mindset to deal with her. She is using sex and "lovey dovey" face to mask her infidelity and to rugsweep her affair.

Sorry that you are here, especially that we are into the Holidays.


----------



## Chaparral

Since you were emailed the affair two years ago, could that mean her family thought you knew about the affair?

Did he fly up after the message that she had hooked up with Bill?

Could she have been hooking up with him before they actually got caught? The fact she had grown distant from you before the hot tub incident is a major red flag of a previous affair.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, how did you find out about him flying up there to see her?

Why did you suspect something happened during her trip?


----------



## TDSC60

Hurting71 said:


> 40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you?


How did you find out she had done this? What romp with Bill do you think she was talking about? His visit to your home while you were away fishing?

That means he was in your home, in your bed, f*cking your wife.

It also means your wife is/was jealous of him because he was keeping up appearances with his fiancee just after your wife and he were together. That should tell you all you need to know. Your wife is jealous of her lover and his fiancee. Cares nothing about you and your marriage.

A lot to overcome.

As for all the other questions - she will lie and tell you what she thinks will keep you around for now.

There is a lot more between her and Bill than you have found.

DNA your(?) child. Tell her you are going to do this.


----------



## ThePheonix

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> It also has me wondering if this was her first rodeo...


He said, "_My wife visits Florida occasionally without my son and I so she can spend "quality time" with her mother."_ 

If she's been back to Florida since they created tidal waves in the hot tube, I'd give odds she was riding Bill like a mechanical bull off and on the whole time she was there. (and probably well before the hot tube show)


----------



## JohnA

The first thing a BS (link to abv http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html ) needs to do is secure a post divorce life, then see if they can reconcile. A reconcillation from strength will succeed, from weakness (and yes because you love her is weakness) will fail. 

Do not leave the house !

Do not assume she gets custody ! Know the laws are and strive for 50/50 at worst and guided by the laws create the more 60/40, 70/30? 

Do not let her touch you or be intimate with you. Don't be a jerk by saying "I don't let ****s touch me" but rather say "look I don't want to lead you on and frankly I just don't want it at this time. Nothing and I mean nothing hits home harder to a women to be turned down. 

Did some quick bing search on PA divorce law. There appears to be 15 factors to determine custody. Also there appears to be 17 factors courts can use to award alimony and divisions of assets.

Pennsylvania Child Custody Factors - Pennsylvania Men's Divorce LawsPennsylvania Men's Divorce Information
Section 5328 - Title 23 - DOMESTIC RELATIONS
Using the 17 Factors of Alimony in PA in Divorce Mediation

Two of these sites are from law firms, but the basic info seems solid.


----------



## Feeling lost and lonely

Very sorry to hear that it happened to you.
My advice is to get some counseling to help you sort things out and call and at least talk to a lawyer even if you plan to try staying. I wish I had done all that we quickly after I found out.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk


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## Hurting71

A lot of information to process here folks, again, thank you all. I have a long time friend that will most likely help me out as far as where to stay, he's single and has plenty of room. I do think I need to get away from her for a little while but will not do that until after the holiday, don't want to ruin it for my 6yr old son. Major problem is that we work for the same company in the same building. I can avoid her but not completely.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> A lot of information to process here folks, again, thank you all. I have a long time friend that will most likely help me out as far as where to stay, he's single and has plenty of room. I do think I need to get away from her for a little while but will not do that until after the holiday, don't want to ruin it for my 6yr old son. Major problem is that we work for the same company in the same building. I can avoid her but not completely.


Do not leave the house. 

If you cannot live with her, she should leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurting71

OK


----------



## Pluto2

marduk said:


> Do not leave the house.
> 
> If you cannot live with her, she should leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## convert

marduk said:


> Do not leave the house.
> 
> If you cannot live with her, she should leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hurting71,
marduk is saying this because if you go the divorce route it can make a difference with custody and maybe even alimony, check with a lawyer, but don't leave the house until then.
I believe it is called abandonment.


----------



## eastsouth2000

My advice seek counseling.

Remember you are not alone in all of this. Many people have gone through what you are experiencing right now.
Its best to seek a professional to counsel you. Help you resolve this lingering negative emotions.

Its not easy it never is. Know that it would always be unfair to you.
But for your to continue a Positive relationship with your family you must seek to resolve this emotions.

I believe a professional councilor can help with you that.

After Resolving the Issue with Self.
Then you may turn you attention the Marriage and seek counseling for the marriage.
See if the any underlying issue's need to be resolved.


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## Marduk

convert said:


> Hurting71,
> marduk is saying this because if you go the divorce route it can make a difference with custody and maybe even alimony, check with a lawyer, but don't leave the house until then.


Yes, but it's also to not shield her from natural consequences.

She ****ed up, not you. So she should leave, be uncomfortable, and bear the shame of being thrown out of her own home.

Likely though, you will not legally be able to force her to leave. So what I'd do is say "I need space from you to think about if I can try to make this work. That means you need to leave for a few weeks while I get my head straight."

And if she doesn't, then you know that she's not really ready to reconcile anyway.

Do not white knight her. Do not shield her from the consequences of her own actions.


----------



## Steve1000

Hurting71 said:


> A lot of information to process here folks, again, thank you all. I have a long time friend that will most likely help me out as far as where to stay, he's single and has plenty of room. I do think I need to get away from her for a little while but will not do that until after the holiday, don't want to ruin it for my 6yr old son. Major problem is that we work for the same company in the same building. I can avoid her but not completely.


Do not give her any list of questions until she first provides a timeline. I remember being in your situation. You are not emotionally ready to interpret and process her answers. You first need to get over the initial shock because now you would most just want her answers to remove some of the pain. 

Again, a list of questions to her now would be counterproductive. I'm sorry you're going through this hell.


----------



## ButtPunch

Do not have sex with her!


----------



## Popcorn2015

Hurting71 said:


> We have 1 child together, a 6yr old boy.


Get a paternity test done.





Pluto2 said:


> Look, we are not here drumming the divorce bandwagon.


The percent of marriages which survive (known) female infidelity is really low. I don't have the exact number but I am sure someone will be along to post it shortly. This is not just a TAM forum thing, but all marriages where the wife gets caught cheating.

She might work 100% to fix things (I doubt it in this case), but you find it impossible to stay with her. 

Or you might be willing to accept her back, but her contempt for you increases and she continues to cheat and eventually leaves you anyway.

For the sake of your kid, I hope you two can have a true reconciliation and the marriage lasts. But you need to prepare yourself for what is the most probable outcome: divorce within a few years.


----------



## MarriedDude

OP -Sorry you are here...the whole situation sucks. You probably feel like 10 pounds of sad in a 5 pound bag...and thats OK. You lost something, it hurts. 

BUT...remember. The ball is now in your court. The decisions are yours to make ...and on YOUR timeline. Take the time you need to sort all of this out. She will probably want to rush you into forgiving her....she wants to move past this VERY quickly. That is not in your interest. Take your time. Carefully consider every step you take. 

YOU have all the power 

take care of yourself


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## Roselyn

Do not leave your house and be charge with abandonment. Do not seek the advise of a close friend such as your single friend to follow. He has not been in this road before. You are getting excellent advice here in TAM from people who are objective to your situation or have been in your shoes before. 

See a divorce attorney, ASAP. Follow your attorney's advice to the letter!!!


----------



## alte Dame

Please, please do not make any decisions to reconcile now.

You only know the tip of the iceberg. You may think that you have the basic outline, but you don't. You seriously don't. The betrayed spouse never does. The wayward spouse always comes out with trickle truth, this is trickling out the truth in CYA mode.

If she has been distant with you for all this time, this is a clear indicator that she has been fooling around with him (or someone else) the whole time. Most likely him.

People always say, 'he/she had no time or opportunity to cheat - his/her whereabouts are all accounted for.'

Wrong! They always find a way. You would be shocked at the level of sordid, repulsive deceit and sheer mendacity some cheaters are capable of. The honest mind simply can't wrap itself around it.

So, don't assume that she was stopped in any real way from hooking up with him in FL just because her family disapproved. There are stolen moments in parks, parking lots, restrooms (I know, I know). There are secret e-mails, texting apps, burner phones. There is, in short, always a way.

Please take a very deep, very long breath and do the digging you need to do to find out the extent of this betrayal. My gut is telling me that it is deep. Let's hope I'm wrong, but you know that she had no qualms about welcoming him to your home town while you were away. Where was your son when this was happening?

(Then again, you could cut to the chase, not worry about getting the truth and just file. As an onlooker here, this would be my preferred solution.)

No matter what you choose, I am very sorry for your pain. I really am.


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## Evinrude58

I agree totally with filing for divorce immediately. You don't have to go through with it, but she will have zero respect for you if you don't.

You are 99% likely to divorce WHETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.

Your wife has shown you clearly for two years that she places zero value on your marriage. Now that the cat is out of the bag, she can't play anymore and will feel trapped. You will feel insecure and be starved for affection and attention that she may give, but will secretly be repulsed by.

I know you're likely to find it impossible to do, but your best bet is to accept your marriage is over and at least act like you do t give a **** about your wife. This may make her start thinking about what she has done, and about your true value to her. 

It will also give you time to heal mentally, and you should truly prepare yourself for moving on, which you should probably, and which you will probably have to do anyway. I know this is asking for the opposite of what you want, but being nice and accepting "your role" in this will not work except to push her away and ensure she divorced you. Matter if fact, if you want her to leave YOU and possibly give you a reasonable divorce, just be really nice and accept all your faults in the marriage. She'll be gone within 6 months. 

Take the advice you've been given and try to accept the reality that the life you had IS GONE. Mourn it, and move forward to making YOUR life better. Don't sit around and sulk and ask for reassurance, which is what you are likely doing. Get mad and see a lawyer and get it all started. This will let her know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you won't ever accept her cheating bs, and will make you look like a man in her eyes. Do it, and act like you dgaf .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

Sorry you are here my friend.

I think this is the worse story I read on TAM. Why ?

Becasue not only you wife cheated on you for so long,but you mother in law,brother in law and other family members lied to you about it.

Belive me this is not her only affair. She only got caught with this one and she kept doing it because she knew she could hide it from you. She got a great back up. Damn it hurts.

She planed all of this and even more. She aranged meetings with this guy. She hide your private messages from you because she wanted to keep doing it. She got mad when her loverboy post picture with her fiance because she got feelings from him.

Trust me on this. She would jump to be with him but he didnt wanted her. Even her family members hope they could hook up.

Here is what you have to do : 

1.talk with lawyer as soon as possible. See you options about custody,money,house. Ask your lawyer can you keep your son aways from mother in law and other family members.

2.get tested for STDs

3.DNA your son


Stay strong my friend.


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## the guy

Talking to a lawyer, both getting tested for STD's and DNA the kid....these three action will show your old lady how much damage she has caused.

I mean the fact that her actions now bring to question the father of her child will have the greatest effect on her and the damage she caused. Even if you know for a fact the boy is yours and ya you are his father....the big point is showing your wife her own choices have brought to light how much you question the entire marriage.
Again the DNA isn't about questioning your son, it about questioning her and her character.

The STD test will also have some effect on your old lady.....the embarrassing fact that she even has to take one will show her what an unhealthy choice she has made.


And finally the fact that some lawyer, some were, has divorce papers sitting in the back of their desk just laying in wait will tell her how close she is to losing everything.

These three consequences will have the biggest effect in how bad she really screwed up. In fact lets see what she is made of and see if she has it in her to do the heavy lifting in dealing with these very important consequences.

I'll tell you again...the fact that you now have to DNA your son will rock her world! That alone will hit her to the core in how much she screwed up!


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## the guy

In fact I think it may even rock your in-laws world when they find out about the need to get their grandson DNA tested.

I believe it will show all involved how much damage infidelity can cause.

In addition even the STD test will effect all involved........

At the end of the day it will smack everyone right in the face with the reality and consequences that infidelity has to offer and the real risks that are involved!

And that is why you do these three things....that and maybe you did get the gift that keeps on giving like STD's.


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## Thound

So sorry for what you're going thru. I truly am. Mow is the time to show your son and wife what a man is. You need to expose to all. Let her know in uncertain terms you will be fine without her ( because you will be). She needs to give you all of her passwords, and keep her stuff available to you. You may should consider filing for divorce.

Or if you don't think you can live with her file and move on. Either way you're being a man, and your son will have a shining example what a real man looks like.


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## ing

Dear Hurting71
This is an awful thing to find out .
You have received some excellent advice that I am sure sounds extreme to you right now. I did notice that you were considering moving out. There is not a font size large enough to say 

DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE


Most, if not all. of the people on this thread have been where you are now. Some recently and others, like myself, many years ago. We do understand the enormous amount of pain you are in. We can not make that pain go away in the short term. By following the advice here you can either build a new marriage based on trust or move on. This takes time and the pain does not really diminish for a long time. Sorry.

We are all desperate to save our marriages when we arrive on TAM and many of us fought very hard to do just that but (and it is a big 'but') most marriages do not survive. 

*Most marriages do not survive post discovery *

Some marriages limp along for another few years of misery where the affair is swept under the rug.

A very tiny minority not only survive but the marriage is different and improved after the affair. This takes enormous work as partners and in counselling. It is not for the feint of heart.


The advice you are getting is to find out which options are available to you. 

*Is your wife is lying to you? 
*
She is.. Just to save you wondering. She has to stop lying and screwing other people.

*Can you forgive her for this betrayal ? 
*
You have a child and I know this influences decisions. 
Please take your time. In the time you are thinking about it; Divorce her. 
You can always stop the Divorce. You could even re-marry her but she has to understand that the marriage and security she had is gone because of her actions. 

*In most cases Divorce is the outcome of infidelity. It sucks.*


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## tech-novelist

ing said:


> Dear Hurting71
> This is an awful thing to find out .
> You have received some excellent advice that I am sure sounds extreme to you right now. I did notice that you were considering moving out. There is not a font size large enough to say
> 
> DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE


Is that big enough?


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## aine

Hurting71 said:


> A lot of information to process here folks, again, thank you all. I have a long time friend that will most likely help me out as far as where to stay, he's single and has plenty of room. I do think I need to get away from her for a little while but will not do that until after the holiday, don't want to ruin it for my 6yr old son. Major problem is that we work for the same company in the same building. I can avoid her but not completely.


You are not listening to what has been said. Do not leave the house, ask her to move out of your bedroom till you decide what you want to do. You are the one who calls the shots from here on out, NOT her! As LH said earlier, the threat of separation/divorce must hang over her head, she must be prepared to do everything to keep you, if not then you are doing the 180 and moving on. Do not leave and live with a friend, you did nothing wrong.


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## ing

technovelist said:


> Is that big enough?


nope 
:soapbox:


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## Marc878

Hurting71 said:


> Last Tuesday, 12/15, I found out my wife of 11 years cheated on me. I found out accidentally through Facebook. There was a "filtered private message" that I had never seen that had been sitting there for some time, 2 years to be exact. It was from the fiancé of a friend of my wife's family in Tampa FLA, (we live in PA). I contacted her and the jig was up. I confronted my wife and after lying about it a couple of times she finally admitted her infidelity. My wife visits Florida occasionally without my son and I so she can spend "quality time" with her mother. Two years ago in October was one of those visits, she flew down to surprise her mother. While down there she was to ride over to Daytona with her brother and this family friend Bill, they were there for the "Biketoberfest" that they have every year out there, I have attended a couple of times with them as well. Apparently my wife was caught effing this guy Bill in the hot tub while in Daytona. After she had returned home they planned for him to fly up for a long weekend while I was away fishing in Western NY. I mean, she planned the whole thing! I always suspected something went on down in Florida between them but could never prove anything but him flying up here while I was away?! I just can't even believe it, it's a nightmare. I'm completely crushed, I cry whenever I'm alone, it's the worst, like somebody died, I'm on the verge of tears all the time. I'm mentally exhausted and I can't get the image of her effing this guy out of my head. She is Very remorseful and has been clinging to me all week. Things haven't been that good between us for a while. I'm a very affectionate man and believe that simple human touch is the key to everyone's happiness. we haven't been close, like that, for a few years. she's been very distant but now, all of the sudden she can't keep her hands off of me, lots of hugs and kisses and telling me she is sorry and that she loves me more than anything. I want to believe her but I'm having a difficult time in doing so. Wow, this is really getting long so I guess I'll stop it here. I'm really effed up right now and I really don't even know what to do. I need help and good advice.


What grandmother wouldn't want her grandson to come for a visit when your wife comes down? NONE!!!! This was very well planned out. She's cold and calculating. She's sorry she got caught which cannot be confused with remourse over what she's done.


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## workindad

OP spend a few minutes on Google looking at paternity testing options. This is cheap, painless, easy and private. You can do it from your own home and can even by a kit at most drug stores to send in to a lab or order a kit online that will be delivered to your home. I ordered mine online when I checked. 

Unfortunately, your wife is a skilled liar and manipulator. If there is one thing that you can expect, it is more lies, trickle truth and minimizing of details. Do not tolerate any of that.

Get the complete timeline as others have suggested and then schedule the polygraph. Follow thru- praking lot confessions are a possibility.

I have a hard time with her distance in the marriage and then banging some dude in a hot tub where she got caught by family. This does not sound like a one time deal or even the first time she did something like this. If you dig, expect to find more than you know today. 

Eat right and excercise and definitely do a hard 180 for your own sanity. It may seem counterinituitive, but you must play hardball right now. She has shown that she does not respect you, your marriage, or your family. Weakness will only enforce that lack of respect in her mind.

As for her family knowing for 2 years and not telling you. F-them- they just sh!t all over your marriage and family right with her. If you do end up with a successful R- you will have to deal firmly with them as well.

Best luck
WD


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## phillybeffandswiss

There is way more involved, it is a TAM mantra, about leaving the house and parental abandonment. It isn't as cut and dry as people are posting. Please talk to a lawyer if you need to be apart.


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## thenub

Get a VAR and carry it at all times. You don't want to have false dv charges against you. 
Listen to these fine folks. They know how this sh!t goes down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

The more I think about this, the more I think you need to divorce and move on. A person that does this for a couple of years and doesn't show any sign of stopping until they get caught--/ that's just not a person that really loves you, or ever will. 

OP, I can tell you for a fact there are an astronomical number of women out there that would love you and be faithful. Your kid(s) will be better off with a happy dad that shows them how one is supposed to handle a person who uses, abuses, and betrays them. 

Don't use kids as an excuse in your mind to forgive a person that shows nothing but dear of being caught.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobold

Hurting71 said:


> I started writing down the questions I had as soon as I found out so I wouldn't forget and also found some online that I wanted answered and sent them to her. I asked her to get me answers ASAP and we would discuss them when she did. I told her that we couldn't move forward with anything until I had these answers. The list of questions is below.
> 
> 1.	When did your affair with Bill start and end? When and where did you sneak your first kiss?
> 2.	What did you say to yourself to justify your affair with Bill?
> 3.	What did Bill offer you that I never did? You're setting yourself up to get blame shifted hard with this one. The good news is that maybe when she gives you the answer she'll have made your decision for you in regards to leaving or staying.
> 4.	What did you do with Bill that you never do/did with me? Don't expect to get a brutally honest answer on this one. If you ever pick out a former cheating wife's story to read at random you'll see that they never did anything with the OM they didn't do with BH and the sex was always terrible.
> 5.	What did you tell Bill about us, our problems, and our marriage?
> 6.	Did you ever tell Bill that you didn’t love me anymore?
> 7.	How did Bill make you feel when you were with him?
> 8.	Did your affair with Bill provide you with something you felt you needed?
> 9.	Did you and Bill talk about a future together?
> 10.	What did you feel for Bill, what did you see in him that I couldn’t give you, what made him the one that you decided to risk everything you had for?
> 11.	Would you have left me for Bill if he had asked you to? Ditto on this one as well, if the answer really is yes, you can still expect to hear a no. The flip side to this is that if she actually does say yes you're now stuck between a rock and a hard place even more so than before. Do you stay with her and accept being her plan B or do you leave her after she's finally being completely honest with you?
> 12.	Did you ever want to or think about leaving me to be with Bill?
> 13.	What did you like about yourself when you were with Bill? How were you different?
> 14.	What did you find out about yourself after your affair with Bill?
> 15.	After the first time you f***ed Bill, did you feel guilty at all? If you did feel guilty, why did you go back and f*** him a few more times? There will be no satisfactory answer on this one. The truth is she knew it was wrong, but it was fulfilling enough to continue even knowing how much she was risking by doing so.
> 16.	Did you think about me at all while you were with Bill?
> 17.	Were you ever worried about losing me?
> 18.	Did you think I would ever find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 19.	Did you think I would NEVER find out that you had an affair with Bill?
> 20.	Did you ever want me to find out about your affair with Bill?
> 21.	Did you ever consider telling me about your affair with Bill?
> 22.	What was it like to keep your affair with Bill a secret for so long? Oh boy, you can expect a bunch of bullsh*t on this one as well, about how she struggled each day with confessing and was even planning to do so before you caught her. Once again if she does admit that she never would have told you the truth, then how can you possibly reconcile with her knowing that she is willing to keep secrets from you and still not lose a wink of sleep?
> 23.	What was it like for you to have a relationship with Bill and me at the same time?
> 24.	What was it like to see me every day knowing you had an affair with Bill?
> 25.	Did you ever consider our son Connor and how this could affect the rest of his life when you decided to have an affair with Bill? Of course she did, it's simply nonsense if she claims otherwise. How would a mother of a young child not think about how her selfish actions might cost him his intact family even once? If she didn't then she's an unfit mother, but if she did then she's admitting that she was not in any "affair fog" but was fully aware of her selfish choices and the likely outcome her affair would have for her family and yet she did it anyway.
> 26.	Was your affair with Bill the only time you cheated on me, our marriage and our future or are there other times and other men that you have done this with? This is something you may wanna bring to the polygraph.
> 27.	Do you think this might happen again with someone else?
> 28.	What will you do if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
> 29.	Do you understand, at all, how this has affected me?
> 30.	Do you think our marriage can be repaired?
> 31.	Do you really still want me in your life or do you want me with you for Connor?
> 32.	What do you value the most in our marriage?
> 33.	If I were to walk away from you and our marriage what would you consider to be your biggest loss?
> 34.	What do you think the hardest part about staying married will be?
> 35.	Are you willing to be patient while I try to learn/figure out how to forgive you?
> 36.	What do you think it would be like if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had an affair?
> 37.	What will you think of me if I decide to stay and reconcile?
> 38.	Why didn’t you just leave me like you always said you would rather than put me through this?
> 39.	How did you feel when I told you that I knew what you did?
> 40.	What made you text Bill and ask why he posted a picture of him and Amy on Facebook after he came home from f***ing you? This last one isn't entirely clear, but if you're saying that she saw him with his GF on FB and got jealous and texted him to complain then I think you already have your answer on the "plan B" questions you asked.


My thoughts on (some of)your questions for her in red. BTW if you're planning on having her take a polygraph, those questions will have to be whittled down to a handful of much less specific inquiries.


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## jsmart

Marc878 said:


> *What grandmother wouldn't want her grandson to come for a visit when your wife comes down? NONE!!!!* This was very well planned out. She's cold and calculating. She's sorry she got caught which cannot be confused with remourse over what she's done.


This so true. Why on earth would she go see her mother without the kids? Any normal grandmother would be upset is she didn't bring the kids. 

To me that is SOLID proof that these visits to grandma were strictly for her to visit her man. For her to have sex in a hot tub means she's VERY comfortable with this guy. It must have been going on for YEARS.

That her family didn't pressure her to end things with POS means that they don't really care for OP and their daughter's marriage. They're either sickos or OP's WW is bad mouthing the marriage, which could explain the lack of concern for their son in law.


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## Mr Blunt

> Do not shield her from the consequences of her own actions.
> See a divorce attorney, ASAP. Follow your attorney's advice to the letter!!!


If you decide not to divorce then ask your attorney about a post-nup. Do whatever is to your advantage and make sure that she has some long term consequences. If you R and R is successful for years then you can cancel the pre-nup.

Once they step over that line into betrayal they are weakened and unless they do a lot of work for a long time they will be vulnerable as the years go by. Most likely she will be very accommodating and emotional with you for the first year maybe even two years but you probably want a marriage to last for 10-20-30 years. *Her remorse,actions, and dedication must become rock solid in order to last decades.*


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## MattMatt

*Re: Just found out my Do NITwife cheated*



Hurting71 said:


> A lot of information to process here folks, again, thank you all. I have a long time friend that will most likely help me out as far as where to stay, he's single and has plenty of room. I do think I need to get away from her for a little while but will not do that until after the holiday, don't want to ruin it for my 6yr old son. Major problem is that we work for the same company in the same building. I can avoid her but not completely.


Do NOT leave the house. 

And you haven't ruined the life of your child. She did thst.

You need to ask her this question. If she feels guilty over cheating on you, how does she feel about cheating on her son? Because every time she abandoned her son to have sex with her lover she WAS cheating on her son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Threeblessings

I'm so sorry to read this and I know the pain is unbelievable. The comforting and showering with affection won't last, I experienced the same. As soon as you stop feeling devastated and teary, the affection will dry up because your wife feels that she has done enough to make it 'right'. What your wife has done is very selfish and forgiveness is up to you and at your own pace. If you feel you are becoming depressed by the situation please get yourself to a doctor, there is nothing to be ashamed about.


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## workindad

jsmart said:


> This so true. Why on earth would she go see her mother without the kids? Any normal grandmother would be upset is she didn't bring the kids.
> 
> To me that is SOLID proof that these visits to grandma were strictly for her to visit her man. For her to have sex in a hot tub means she's VERY comfortable with this guy. It must have been going on for YEARS.
> 
> That her family didn't pressure her to end things with POS means that they don't really care for OP and their daughter's marriage. They're either sickos or OP's WW is bad mouthing the marriage, which could explain the lack of concern for their son in law.




I absolutely agree and can't believe I missed the point about not taking the child to see the grandparents and other family there she was supposed to be visiting. That indicates a planned fun time excursion. This didn't "just happen".


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## ing

phillybeffandswiss said:


> There is way more involved, it is a TAM mantra, about leaving the house and parental abandonment. It isn't as cut and dry as people are posting. Please talk to a lawyer if you need to be apart.


Eventually when lawyers, paperwork and separate finances kick in it does not matter who moves out but in these early days it absolutely does matter. 


Loses daily contact with kid
Loses access to the house
Is the one that has left the child
Leaves her to write her own story to child, friends, and family

Sure it is horrible and painful but far less horrible and painful than every second weekend with your kid for the next 12 years.


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## phillybeffandswiss

ing said:


> Eventually when lawyers, paperwork and separate finances kick in it does not matter who moves out but in these early days it absolutely does matter.
> 
> 
> Loses daily contact with kid
> Loses access to the house
> Is the one that has left the child
> Leaves her to write her own story to child, friends, and family
> 
> Sure it is horrible and painful but far less horrible and painful than every second weekend with your kid for the next 12 years.


This is exactly why you talk to a lawyer, it is not this cut and dry at all.


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## Divinely Favored

When you blow this up and her family tries to give you advice I would tell them y'all lost all f.ing credibility with me that you would help hide her sex romp with f.buddy. they should have forced her confession.

After she was caught f.ing him in hot tub she had him fly up to do him in your bed while you were away? She is not remorseful, just sorry she was busted and sad her world is messed up.


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## Evinrude58

The things that worked for me:

I still work at same place as my ex. Try not to look at her, ignore, don't ask about kids at work so you have to be near her.
Now that I've moved on, it's been easier to ignore, but still hurts to see her a little. Bad memories. Feelings of disgust.

Mourn the death of your relationship, but exercise and get fit. I ran 3 miles a day and was in the best shape physically as I'd been in 15 years. It helps. Sitting around suffering and depressed doesn't help. But it's hard at first when you're in so much pain. Force yourself to go take a jog or a swim. Anything to get your heart rate up.

Accept it. That was the key for me. Acceptance. Once that happens, you can move forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is exactly why you talk to a lawyer, it is not this cut and dry at all.


Can you be more specific as to when it is a good idea to move out?
I can think of two situations where moving out is a good idea.


Where there is physical abuse.
Where there are no children involved. Move out and let the lawyers sort it out.


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## G.J.

Hope your well Hurting71


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## wmn1

G.J. said:


> Hope your well Hurting71


My thoughts exactly GJ.

My concerns with people like Hurting71 is that they, as he put it are 'affectionate', which means they lead with their hearts over their minds when even facing betrayal like he did.

I was late to this thread but read everyone's responses and agreed generally except for those who suggested he wait to act. I also further felt he was making a mistake by moving out. It's not he who cheated and it's obvious his wife can't be unsupervised. I am a very strong opponent of separation unless it is headed to divorce and Hurting71's mindset could lead him to anywhere at this point.

The fact is that was sooo busted there and hid it well with the help of the family. The most significant thing to me was the intended trip 'while hubby' was out of town. I go to upstate NY quite often and on fishing trips too. I think it would be unforgivable for my wife to plan an excursion in my own bed while I was away. 

I thought Hurting71's list, tweaked by Kobold, would be an excellent thing to do while she was acting out signs of regret (notice I didn't say remorse). The fact that Hurting71 hasn't been back in a week tells me he either capitulated to her in a way or let his heart allow him to crash. 

An update would be nice but he needs to step to the plate and crush this issue while it's hot whether he decides to stay or go. I also wonder why this guy Bill's Fiance decided to stay with his cheating arse. They weren't even married yet, no kids, no nothing.


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## happyman64

Hurting71

I understand you just found out the worst thing about your wife and marriage.

Sure it happened 2 years ago but to you it happened yesterday.

Focus on you right now. Focus on your son.

Stay put and tell your wife to give you space.

You mentioned that your marriage has been off for a while so that should give you some clue as to where your wifes head has been lately.

Up her @ss!

Speak to an attorney just so you know your rights and the rights of your son.

Do not tell your wife that you are seeking legal advice for now.

Your wife needs a good shrink.

Do not send your list of questions. Marduk was spot on with his guidance to you about the timeline.

Get tough. Think with your head.

ANd show your wife consequences. You can deal with her family later however you see fit.

The lies and cheating are with your wife. She is the problem.

Deal with her only after you are ready. 

See if your wife had Bill over to your house? That brings another level of disrespect into the equation.

Cool, calm and dispassionate is what you need to be right now.

How old are you and your wife?

HM


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## Hurting71

UPDATE: My wife and I have talked and cried ALOT since finding out. I haven't moved out. I am staying and we are going to try and reconcile. I gave her the list of questions that she willingly answered. She has also been very open and willing to talk about anything without hesitation. She has shown a great deal of remorse and I can see the pain in her eyes when we discuss what happened. I believe she truly regrets her choice/decision and looking back I also believe that this is what kept her from getting close to me over the last couple of years. She is willing to do anything I ask to help in the reconciliation. We are going to go to counseling separately and then together when I think the time is right. I feel I have most of the questions I had answered but am sure there are some things that I will just never find out. I'll have to try and accept that. I have spoken to Bill's fiancé several times since my original post and do not believe that there has been any other contact since this happened. I am confident that this is the only affair she has had. 

As for me, I am still hurting, a lot. The hardest thing for me to understand is the fact that she and him planned the whole thing. It wasn't a "I had to much to drink and didn't think about what I was doing" kinda thing. She planned it out and followed through. She could have stopped at any time but she didn't. I never would have imagined her doing something like that. We discussed infidelity early in our marriage and always agreed that if it ever got that bad, so bad that we wanted somebody else, that we would jus leave the marriage and divorce. I always believed that that's the way it would have happened, not this way. It's just really hard, it's like she was telling me that to protect herself if It was me who wanted to stray and when it came down to her doing it then that agreement didn't apply. I know I have a long road ahead of me and I also know that it might not work out. I might not ever be able to forgive her. The "mind movies" might not ever go away. The triggers that are already effecting me will probably always be there. All I can do is try, I owe it to myself and the vow that I took.


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## jld

Hurting71 said:


> UPDATE: My wife and I have talked and cried ALOT since finding out. I haven't moved out. I am staying and we are going to try and reconcile. I gave her the list of questions that she willingly answered. She has also been very open and willing to talk about anything without hesitation. She has shown a great deal of remorse and I can see the pain in her eyes when we discuss what happened. I believe she truly regrets her choice/decision and looking back I also believe that this is what kept her from getting close to me over the last couple of years. She is willing to do anything I ask to help in the reconciliation. We are going to go to counseling separately and then together when I think the time is right. I feel I have most of the questions I had answered but am sure there are some things that I will just never find out. I'll have to try and accept that. I have spoken to Bill's fiancé several times since my original post and do not believe that there has been any other contact since this happened. I am confident that this is the only affair she has had.
> 
> As for me, I am still hurting, a lot. The hardest thing for me to understand is the fact that she and him planned the whole thing. It wasn't a "I had to much to drink and didn't think about what I was doing" kinda thing. She planned it out and followed through. She could have stopped at any time but she didn't. I never would have imagined her doing something like that.* We discussed infidelity early in our marriage and always agreed that if it ever got that bad, so bad that we wanted somebody else, that we would jus leave the marriage and divorce.* I always believed that that's the way it would have happened, not this way. It's just really hard, it's like she was telling me that to protect herself if It was me who wanted to stray and when it came down to her doing it then that agreement didn't apply. I know I have a long road ahead of me and I also know that it might not work out. I might not ever be able to forgive her. The "mind movies" might not ever go away. The triggers that are already effecting me will probably always be there. All I can do is try, I owe it to myself and the vow that I took.


She did not have a child then. 

She was trying to get her needs met while still preserving her family. It hurts, but that's what it was.

Are you two discussing why things had not been good between the two of you prior to the affair? Figuring that out and fixing it will go a long way towards healing.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> UPDATE: My wife and I have talked and cried ALOT since finding out. I haven't moved out. I am staying and we are going to try and reconcile. I gave her the list of questions that she willingly answered. She has also been very open and willing to talk about anything without hesitation. She has shown a great deal of remorse and I can see the pain in her eyes when we discuss what happened. I believe she truly regrets her choice/decision and looking back I also believe that this is what kept her from getting close to me over the last couple of years. She is willing to do anything I ask to help in the reconciliation. We are going to go to counseling separately and then together when I think the time is right. I feel I have most of the questions I had answered but am sure there are some things that I will just never find out. I'll have to try and accept that. I have spoken to Bill's fiancé several times since my original post and do not believe that there has been any other contact since this happened. I am confident that this is the only affair she has had.
> 
> As for me, I am still hurting, a lot. The hardest thing for me to understand is the fact that she and him planned the whole thing. It wasn't a "I had to much to drink and didn't think about what I was doing" kinda thing. She planned it out and followed through. She could have stopped at any time but she didn't. I never would have imagined her doing something like that. We discussed infidelity early in our marriage and always agreed that if it ever got that bad, so bad that we wanted somebody else, that we would jus leave the marriage and divorce. I always believed that that's the way it would have happened, not this way. It's just really hard, it's like she was telling me that to protect herself if It was me who wanted to stray and when it came down to her doing it then that agreement didn't apply. I know I have a long road ahead of me and I also know that it might not work out. I might not ever be able to forgive her. The "mind movies" might not ever go away. The triggers that are already effecting me will probably always be there. All I can do is try, I owe it to myself and the vow that I took.


Has she told you why she planned and executed the affair?

Do you believe her?

How does that roll into your plans to reconcile?


----------



## eric1

Can you detail how exposing her affair to her family went? That's always one of the biggest barometers of remorse.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm all for reconciliation if that is what you and her want, but she has to be 100% in. If not then you are spinning your wheels. Here are my suggestions:

1) Intensive individual counseling (IC) for both of you with pro marriage counselors, for two months. She needs to work on why she gave herself permission to have an affair, why her boundaries were so low, and why she coped by needed validation from another man instead of going to you first. You need a good PTSD counselor, experienced in infidelity, to guide you through the emotional turmoil. IC should be non-negotiable. 

2) After two months of IC the two of you can move on to joint marriage counseling. Make sure it is with a pro-marriage counselor who is not afraid of holding you both accountable and calling you on any bullsh!t when s/he sees it. 

3) Total transparency by your WW for now and into the foreseeable future. All computer pass codes and phone access codes will be given to you. She hands you her phone anytime you ask. 

4) She writes a no-contact e-mail, which you look over and approve, to send to the OM and his wife, telling him never to contact her again. As for anymore friendship between you and her and the other couple...it needs to end immediately. 

5) She needs to sit down with her parents, then yours, and make a full confession and apology to them for her affair. 

And remember that she needs to show you she is being proactive. You should have to do very little except heal yourself and work with her to heal the marriage, but she should be the one making all the arrangements and coming up with ideas on how to work towards a healthy R.


----------



## jld

Why do her parents and his need to be involved? Does he need their help?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Why do her parents and his need to be involved? Does he need their help?


Reconciliation requires the whole family to be on board and understanding of the truth of what went down.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Reconciliation requires the whole family to be on board and understanding of the truth of what went down.


According to whom?


----------



## bandit.45

Me


----------



## jld

Okay . . .

OP, imo you need to decide what you need (and can do) for reconciliation and then present it to her. She needs to let you know what she needs (and can do) for reconciliation and then present it to you. You see what you can agree on.

Ideally you would both be humble and genuinely interested in doing whatever is needed to restore and rebuild, if that is the direction you choose to go.


----------



## G.J.

Is this the poster whos wife's family possibly knew about the affair for a while ?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Why do her parents and his need to be involved? Does he need their help?


I wouldn't say it's necessary but I see some logic in it. It's a defensive strategy.

#1 it can force accountability. It's easy to not be accountible and to re-write history to your spouse, but it's harder to do that to your family.

#2 it can shock someone out of 'the fog.' I can't speak for women, but I know as a man having my parents know that I cheated would be a disarming dose of reality.

#3 if the betrayed spouse walks, chances are that the ex-in laws won't be brutal to them for doing so.

#4 if they do reconcile, and the family finds out that they are cheating again, they may not rug sweep it.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Why do her parents and his need to be involved? Does he need their help?


OP
Doesn't need to carry her lie. That is her cross to bear. 
Withholding the truth from loved ones is the same as lying to them.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I wouldn't say it's necessary but I see some logic in it. It's a defensive strategy.
> 
> #1 it can force accountability. It's easy to not be accountible and to re-write history to your spouse, but it's harder to do that to your family.
> 
> #2 it can shock someone out of 'the fog.' I can't speak for women, but I know as a man having my parents know that I cheated would be a disarming dose of reality.
> 
> #3 if the betrayed spouse walks, chances are that the ex-in laws won't be brutal to them for doing so.
> 
> #4 if they do reconcile, and the family finds out that they are cheating again, they may not rug sweep it.


I don't know that going into reconciliation with a defensive posture is going to be helpful.

To me, if he needs the help of her parents and his, that says he does not have much authority on his own. Meaning, she does not respect him. Not a good basis for reconciliation.

In this case, he either needs to earn her respect, or rethink reconciling.

OP, one really good way to earn her respect is to seek to understand why she cheated in the first place. Encourage absolute openness and honesty. _Put your pride aside and be willing to hear whatever she has to say, no matter how painful._ Work from there.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> Doesn't need to carry her lie. That is her cross to bear.
> Withholding the truth from loved ones is the same as lying to them.


How many people need to know? Should she do a public confession? 

Where are the limits?


----------



## italianjob

jld said:


> I don't know that going into reconciliation with a defensive posture is going to be helpful.


Since she planned the whole thing in cold blood, NOT going into reconciliation with a defensive posture would be idiotic.



jld said:


> In this case, he either needs to earn her respect, or rethink reconciling.


Oh, not at all SHE needs to earn his respect not the other way around...


----------



## jld

italianjob said:


> Since she planned the whole thing in cold blood, NOT going into reconciliation with a defensive posture would be idiotic.


They are not obliged to reconcile. The most defensive posture would be to divorce. It is always an option.



> Oh, not at all SHE needs to earn his respect not the other way around...


She can do that, I hope, by being completely open and honest with him. Forever.


----------



## Pluto2

IMO, people cheat primarily because they feel a sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy. Their needs become more important than your family or your marriage and they don't (at that time) care who gets hurt. I'm not a follower of the "her needs weren't being met" school of thought, since the unspoken portion of that phrase requires you to consider who wasn't meting those needs, and the answer is YOU. That's a bunch of whowee. Cheating is a choice, plain and simple. Lots of folks have needs that aren't met from time to time, and they don't cheat. 

Its unbelievably hard to change someone who lacked empathy, and who maintains a sense of entitlement, which is one of the reasons why a true reconciliation is so hard. I am thrilled you say you see true remorse in your discussions with her, that's a good start. She needs to be mortified at what her choices almost cost her, since that is the best and most authentic way to actually learn and change from a mistake. I agree your family can help support you both, sometimes. And sometimes families are bit crazy and one side of the family screams for a divorce, which is not what either of you want. So maybe you should consider a likely reaction before a complete exposure-just a thought.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I don't know that going into reconciliation with a defensive posture is going to be helpful.
> 
> To me, if he needs the help of her parents and his, that says he does not have much authority on his own. Meaning, she does not respect him. Not a good basis for reconciliation.
> 
> In this case, he either needs to earn her respect, or rethink reconciling.
> 
> OP, one really good way to earn her respect is to seek to understand why she cheated in the first place. Encourage absolute openness and honesty. _Put your pride aside and be willing to hear whatever she has to say, no matter how painful._ Work from there.


Illogical.

If he had her respect, she wouldn't have had the affair.

One way to get respect is to enforce accountability. This is one way to do so. Not the only way, but one way.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> She did not have a child then.


That's a cop-out, and a pretty lame one at that.

Either way, that's but one of MANY reasons that she shouldn't have been f*cking some other guy in a hot tub at a biker rally.



jld said:


> She was trying to get her needs met while still preserving her family. It hurts, but that's what it was.


Doesn't sound like OM was meeting much in the way of emotional needs, and her need to get randy in what I'll assume was at least a semi-communal hot tub w/ Mr. Sunday Biker D**chebag is invalid.



jld said:


> Are you two discussing why things had not been good between the two of you prior to the affair? Figuring that out and fixing it will go a long way towards healing.


Probably because she was trying to find a way to f*ck OM on the sly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

jld said:


> They are not obliged to reconcile. The most defensive posture would be to divorce. It is always an option.


They are not. And, personally, I think he decided that route too early. That doesn't mean he needs to go with blind faith. That should be earned over time.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> How many people need to know? Should she do a public confession?
> 
> Where are the limits?


Loved Ones....People that matter. People who would ask.

I certainly would not want to live my life with a giant lie hanging
over me and having to continue the deceit with my actions.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> How many people need to know? Should she do a public confession?
> 
> Where are the limits?


Hyperbole much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Illogical.
> 
> If he had her respect, she wouldn't have had the affair.


Then he has some work to do, too.



> One way to get respect is to enforce accountability. This is one way to do so. Not the only way, but one way.


You are talking about compliance out of fear, not respect. Respect is inspired. You have to earn it.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Then he has some work to do, too.


100% agree.

Begging for openness is not a rational strategy in the face of an affair without consequences. It actually sounds pathetic to me.


> You are talking about compliance out of fear, not respect. Respect is inspired. You have to earn it.


Fear is a form of respect.

In fact, if polls and stats are to be believed, the fear of losing the marriage is _the_ primary reason why someone may choose not to have an affair, and the reason why people try so hard to cover them up if they do.


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> That's a cop-out, and a pretty lame one at that.
> 
> Either way, that's but one of MANY reasons that she shouldn't have been f*cking some other guy in a hot tub at a biker rally.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't sound like OM was meeting much in the way of emotional needs, and her need to get randy in what I'll assume was at least a semi-communal hot tub w/ Mr. Sunday Biker D**chebag is invalid.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably because she was trying to find a way to f*ck OM on the sly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Good points .

I for one would not have tolerated this from a woman who calls herself my wife. If she wants to be a skank biker momma, then that's what she needs to go and do. If bad boys are what excite her, then let her go and put out for the Banditos, or the Mongols, or Hell's Angels. Whatever scuzzbucket she ends up with will give her respect...right upside her head if she ever disrespects him.


----------



## italianjob

jld said:


> Respect is inspired. You have to earn it.


I'll tell you, if one has to work to earn just enough respect from his wife that she doesn't bang somebody else in a semi public tub, then maybe the better decision to make is to kick her to the curb ASAP.

And never look back.


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## GusPolinski

Honestly, I don't see a wife and mother going from "just friends" to sex in a hot tub at a public venue. Based in that alone, I think OP has been fed a false timeline.

Additionally...

Sex in a hot tub at a biker rally...?

She may have been "passed around" a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

Didn't she get busted by her family as well?

Seems logical to let them know that you know.


----------



## jigga114

Hurting71 said:


> UPDATE: My wife and I have talked and cried ALOT since finding out. I haven't moved out. I am staying and we are going to try and reconcile. I gave her the list of questions that she willingly answered. She has also been very open and willing to talk about anything without hesitation. She has shown a great deal of remorse and I can see the pain in her eyes when we discuss what happened. I believe she truly regrets her choice/decision and looking back I also believe that this is what kept her from getting close to me over the last couple of years. She is willing to do anything I ask to help in the reconciliation. We are going to go to counseling separately and then together when I think the time is right. I feel I have most of the questions I had answered but am sure there are some things that I will just never find out. I'll have to try and accept that. I have spoken to Bill's fiancé several times since my original post and do not believe that there has been any other contact since this happened. I am confident that this is the only affair she has had.
> 
> As for me, I am still hurting, a lot. The hardest thing for me to understand is the fact that she and him planned the whole thing. It wasn't a "I had to much to drink and didn't think about what I was doing" kinda thing. She planned it out and followed through. She could have stopped at any time but she didn't. I never would have imagined her doing something like that. We discussed infidelity early in our marriage and always agreed that if it ever got that bad, so bad that we wanted somebody else, that we would jus leave the marriage and divorce. I always believed that that's the way it would have happened, not this way. It's just really hard, it's like she was telling me that to protect herself if It was me who wanted to stray and when it came down to her doing it then that agreement didn't apply. I know I have a long road ahead of me and I also know that it might not work out. I might not ever be able to forgive her. The "mind movies" might not ever go away. The triggers that are already effecting me will probably always be there. All I can do is try, I owe it to myself and the vow that I took.


I wish you the best of luck OP. I hope that your W has taken 100% of the responsibility for her A and has not tried to shift any of the blame onto you. Nothing you did or didn't do caused her to choose to step outside the M. If that is the case, then you are pursuing R from a solid foundation. 

Her being willing to do anything is also a good sign, as long as her words are backed by actions. If any part of their affair was conducted in your home, I hope you and your W have taken appropriate actions to excise anything that their trysts sullied. Any mementos or reminders of the A have to go. Full transparency is a must. Mind movies are terrible, but with time, they will begin to fade into the background. Just make sure your W understands that healing from this mess takes 2 to 5 years. This is not something that will go away anytime soon. She should not get upset if you feel the need to ask more questions or the same questions from time to time. That is a part of the process. 

In regards to her family knowing and not telling you, that is a sticky situation. Blood is always thicker than water. At least they did something to try to stop the A. Forgiving them is up to you, but I am sure as a parent you know that if your son had out you in that position, you would have some very difficult choices to make.

You seem to be on the right track and are doing very well. May 2016 be better than 2015 for you.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> How many people need to know? Should she do a public confession?
> 
> Where are the limits?


What is your problem with exposure to the parents?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You are talking about compliance out of fear, not respect. Respect is inspired. You have to earn it.


How exactly are you confusing fear with insisting somebody be overly transparent while doing the right thing?



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## naiveonedave

farsidejunky said:


> How exactly are you confusing fear with insisting somebody be overly transparent while doing the right thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Exactly why would you want to earn respect from someone who is cheating on you? that is a concept that makes no sense to me.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> What is your problem with exposure to the parents?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It weakens his authority.

Think about a teacher with an unruly class. If the kids have to be sent to the principal's office every time they misbehave to get them to comply, how effective is the teacher?

If the teacher's only other way to get compliance is through fear and punishment, is she or he much more effective?

Think about the most inspiring teachers you had, far. Was it coercion that made you respect them, or their character qualities?


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## bandit.45

jld said:


> It weakens his authority.
> 
> Think about a teacher with an unruly class. If the kids have to be sent to the principal's office every time they misbehave to get them to comply, how effective is the teacher?
> 
> If the teacher's only other way to get compliance is through fear and punishment, is she or he much more effective?
> 
> Think about the most inspiring teachers you had, far. Was it coercion that made you respect them, or their character qualities?


Problem with your reasoning is that families are not dom/sub. 

The teachers I respected were the one's who followed through on their promises.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Problem with your reasoning is that families are not dom/sub.
> 
> The teachers I respected were the one's who followed through on their promises.


Once somebody cheats, they have lost their moral authority. The BS automatically has more power in the relationship, whether they want it or not.

The teachers I respected the most did not need the school structure, or any appeal to external authority, to get my respect. They were smart and caring, and I knew I could benefit by listening to them. I genuinely looked up to them, and still do.

I feel the same way with my husband. He has a hold on me not because he could really hurt me if he wanted to, but because I know what a high quality human being he is. I think it is a privilege to be with him and to have had children with him. I learn from him.

Does not mean he is perfect. He could use improvement in some areas. But the overall quality level is very high. I am not realistically going to find that again.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> It weakens his authority.
> 
> Think about a teacher with an unruly class. If the kids have to be sent to the principal's office every time they misbehave to get them to comply, how effective is the teacher?
> 
> If the teacher's only other way to get compliance is through fear and punishment, is she or he much more effective?
> 
> Think about the most inspiring teachers you had, far. Was it coercion that made you respect them, or their character qualities?


Once someone has an affair, there is no authority. 

That's kind of part of having an affair. 

This logic is like having the teacher find out you cheated on your final exam, but keeping it quiet and giving you a passing grade anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> How exactly are you confusing fear with insisting somebody be overly transparent while doing the right thing?


You want them to do it for the right reasons, far. Not out of fear, but out of genuine respect, and love.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Once someone has an affair, there is no authority.
> 
> That's kind of part of having an affair.
> 
> This logic is like having the teacher find out you cheated on your final exam, but keeping it quiet and giving you a passing grade anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then that teacher would lose his authority. He is being dishonest, if the final counted more than regular coursework.

You have authority if you are the BS. You have more power. Not wanting it does not mean you do not have it. 

And with it, you have the responsibility to use that power wisely.


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## Pluto2

A$$-backwards.

The WS is the one who must earn respect from the BS for her poor choices and to regain his trust.

ETA: much like a cheating student must earn the respect from his otherwise fine teacher for his poor choices.


----------



## italianjob

jld said:


> You want them to do it for the right reasons, far. Not out of fear, but out of genuine respect, and love.


You don't really know the true reasons behind their doing the things you need.
That's one the very reasons why reconciliation is a process that takes years and doesn't just happen like that.
To assume you know if they comply by fear, by calculation or out of genuine love, considering they've just finished lying and betraying you in the worst ways, is absurd.
Step 1 is they comply
Step 2, over the years, is you know they complied because of noble motivations or not. If they did it just because they were afraid you'd walk away, you're going to learn it (the hard way) and probably abort the reconciliation attempt



jld said:


> Then that teacher would lose his authority. He is being dishonest, if the final counted more than regular coursework.
> 
> You have authority if you are the BS. You have more power. Not wanting it does not mean you do not have it.
> 
> And with it, you have the responsibility to use that power wisely.


I don't understand why you always put forth that one party has to take on a dominant role.
You cheat, you have to show me you're worth a second chance. It's that simple.
I'm not your father or a teacher or anything...


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Once somebody cheats, they have lost their moral authority. The BS automatically has more power in the relationship, whether they want it or not.
> .


JLD, with al due respect, you really need to read from BH's (and probably BWs too). One of the biggest things that jumps out at me is the frequency at which BHs don't have any power. They literally can't do anything, even eat, surviving is more important than anything. 

If anything, once the affair is uncovered, the WS has power, they have choices. The BS has 2 - put up or move on. At that point that is all there is, there is no reconciliation, at least not yet.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> It weakens his authority.
> 
> Think about a teacher with an unruly class. If the kids have to be sent to the principal's office every time they misbehave to get them to comply, how effective is the teacher?
> 
> If the teacher's only other way to get compliance is through fear and punishment, is she or he much more effective?
> 
> Think about the most inspiring teachers you had, far. Was it coercion that made you respect them, or their character qualities?


So you agree with Dr Harley on everything... But exposure...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You want them to do it for the right reasons, far. Not out of fear, but out of genuine respect, and love.


I would argue that they are. Your insistence on judging one's motivation is a combination of projection and a disrespectful judgment.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

The biggest mistake you can make right now is to be intimate with her. If you have been, stop. If she asks why, just answer I don't think it is a good idea, it just muddys the issues at hand. Why? Because both men and women have preconceioves notions about the opposite gender that are 1/10 true and 9/10 fiction. A preconceived notion women have about men is that it is mostly about sex for men. As long as they provide good sex to a man he is basically content. Refusing to be intimate with her while being "normal" otherwise drives home the point of how serious her adultery was. The opposite side of the coin is a guy with a 7 figure income not understanding how his wife could settle forbad 5 figure income. 

If she pushes the subject ask her "How am I suppose to be in this bedroom when he was there f-cking you? After he left and we were intimate were thinking of him ? Comparing us ? Intimately is about mutual trust between two people, how do I trust you now? Why did you really stay with me ? Habit ? To much of an effort to dump me ? 

These are the answers you need to move forward into reconcilation which is another nightmare.


----------



## Hurting71

**Change in the timeline** Her affair actually happened in October 2012 not 2013. This in formation came from Bill's fiancé.

Her family knows, my family does not. We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help. I think we have to do this on our own under my terms. If the outcome is that we survive then we will have nobody to be grateful for other than each other and we'll be that much stronger together. 

My wife has taken 100% responsibility, hasn't blamed me not one bit for her horrible choice, has answered all of my questions without hesitation and written a "no contact" letter to Bill even though I don't believe they haven't had any contact for a couple of years. She has agreed to counseling, both individual and together and a polygraph to make sure this hasn't happened before or since. She has done everything I have asked. Is she afraid she might lose me? Of course she is but I don't think that is her only motivation.

The affair did not take place in my home. Bill stayed at a local hotel. Her sister watched my son one night and our neighbor watched our son the second night, neither on knowing that she was having an affair.


----------



## ButtPunch

naiveonedave said:


> JLD, with al due respect, you really need to read from BH's (and probably BWs too). One of the biggest things that jumps out at me is the frequency at which BHs don't have any power. They literally can't do anything, even eat, surviving is more important than anything.
> 
> If anything, once the affair is uncovered, the WS has power, they have choices. The BS has 2 - put up or move on. At that point that is all there is, there is no reconciliation, at least not yet.


This....
I was in shock......I lost 20 lbs in a month. Couldn't eat, sleep or work. 

I was now a suddenly single Dad left to pick up all the pieces. The betrayed spouse has very little power. They are generally one big giant ball of emotions. While the WS has detached and can think very clearly.

No greater example of this than Gridcom.


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> **Change in the timeline** Her affair actually happened in October 2012 not 2013. This in formation came from Bill's fiancé.
> 
> Her family knows, my family does not. We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help. I think we have to do this on our own under my terms. If the outcome is that we survive then we will have nobody to be grateful for other than each other and we'll be that much stronger together.
> 
> My wife has taken 100% responsibility, hasn't blamed me not one bit for her horrible choice, has answered all of my questions without hesitation and written a "no contact" letter to Bill even though I don't believe they haven't had any contact for a couple of years. She has agreed to counseling, both individual and together and a polygraph to make sure this hasn't happened before or since. She has done everything I have asked. Is she afraid she might lose me? Of course she is but I don't think that is her only motivation.


What happened between 2012 and now? Are you confident you know everything?

And foremost:

I guess (hope) that her solo trips to Florida are going to be a thing of the past, are they?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Then that teacher would lose his authority. He is being dishonest, if the final counted more than regular coursework.
> 
> You have authority if you are the BS. You have more power. Not wanting it does not mean you do not have it.
> 
> And with it, you have the responsibility to use that power wisely.


So, using your metaphor, a good teacher wouldn't bust the student for cheating on a test, or give them a failing grade?

Which, in itself, is public?

This dog just doesn't hunt, JLD.


----------



## Kobold

jld said:


> In this case, he either needs to earn her respect, or rethink reconciling.


I'd be interested in hearing specifics about what you believe he should be doing to earn her respect back.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hurting, 

Keeping it out of your home is something, but not much,

After my last post I reread your thread and realized I repeated many of the questions you planned to ask. You have posted some of the answers. Could you repost the questions with her answers? 

Also Gus made about bikers and their habits. Living in FL I learned to classify motorcycle owners into two groups. The first is bikers, and it is this group I would say Gus was referring to. The second are riders. They just enjoy riding a bike on a nice day alone or with others. Which group do you and her family fall into ? 

Finally what is her family like? What are there moral standards?


----------



## Hurting71

italianjob said:


> What happened between 2012 and now? Are you confident you know everything?
> 
> And foremost:
> 
> I guess (hope) that her solo trips to Florida are going to be a thing of the past, are they?


I have spoken extensively to Bill's fiancé. A year after it happened she got a call from a disgruntled friend of my wife's family telling her that her fiancé had cheated on her with my wife. Bill's fiancé has told me that she can account for Bill's time since then which would be for the last 2 years. I don't think I know everything, I'm sure I'll ask questions that I haven't already and find out more stuff. 

I've told her that those solo trips will no longer happen, she gave no argument on that statement.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> I have spoken extensively to Bill's fiancé. A year after it happened she got a call from a disgruntled friend of my wife's family telling her that her fiancé had cheated on her with my wife. Bill's fiancé has told me that she can account for Bill's time since then which would be for the last 2 years. I don't think I know everything, I'm sure I'll ask questions that I haven't already and find out more stuff.
> 
> I've told her that those solo trips will no longer happen, she gave no argument on that statement.


Something's amiss here, friend.


----------



## Hurting71

JohnA said:


> Hi Hurting,
> 
> Keeping it out of your home is something, but not much,
> 
> After my last post I reread your thread and realized I repeated many of the questions you planned to ask. You have posted some of the answers. Could you repost the questions with her answers?
> 
> Also Gus made about bikers and their habits. Living in FL I learned to classify motorcycle owners into two groups. The first is bikers, and it is this group I would say Gus was referring to. The second are riders. They just enjoy riding a bike on a nice day alone or with others. Which group do you and her family fall into ?
> 
> Finally what is her family like? What are there moral standards?


We sat face to face and I asked her the questions, the answers were not written down. I wanted to see her reaction to each question. There were a lot of tears on her part as I sat stone-faced and listened. I almost felt bad putting her through that but I felt it needed to be done. There have been many more questions after that that she has willingly answered.

We ride motorcycles we are not "bikers".

Her mother cheated on her first 2 husbands.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> We sat face to face and I asked her the questions, the answers were not written down. I wanted to see her reaction to each question. There were a lot of tears on her part as I sat stone-faced and listened. I almost felt bad putting her through that but I felt it needed to be done. There have been many more questions after that that she has willingly answered.
> 
> We ride motorcycles we are not "bikers".
> 
> *Her mother cheated on her first 2 husbands.*


Giant red flag that makes the odds that this wasn't her first affair -- nor her last -- vastly more likely. She may think deep down that this is just what married mothers do.

Hunker down, buddy. Get detailed with the timeline and your forensics. I'm worried for you that this is the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> I have spoken extensively to Bill's fiancé. A year after it happened she got a call from a disgruntled friend of my wife's family telling her that her fiancé had cheated on her with my wife. Bill's fiancé has told me that she can account for Bill's time since then which would be for the last 2 years. I don't think I know everything, I'm sure I'll ask questions that I haven't already and find out more stuff.
> 
> I've told her that those solo trips will no longer happen, she gave no argument on that statement.





marduk said:


> Something's amiss here, friend.


I'm afraid I agree with marduk here, man.

She planned to go physical with Bill in 2012, executed her plan, no one knew anything for a year, you didn't know for two more years,
she kept on going down there alone, and you truly think nothing else happened? And you are relying on her honesty (she lied to you for at least 3 years) to see if there is more?
I think you are entering this reconciliation with your blinders on...

At least it's good she's ok with not traveling alone anymore...

Do I remember wrong or something was said about Bill visiting your town? What did you find out about this?


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> Giant red flag that makes the odds that this wasn't her first affair -- nor her last -- vastly more likely. She may think deep down that this is just what married mothers do.
> 
> Hunker down, buddy. Get detailed with the timeline and your forensics. I'm worried for you that this is the tip of the iceberg.


Gotta get up a few bucks for a polygraph but it will happen. I need to know for sure.


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> Giant red flag that makes the odds that this wasn't her first affair -- nor her last -- vastly more likely. She may think deep down that this is just what married mothers do.
> 
> Hunker down, buddy. Get detailed with the timeline and your forensics. I'm worried for you that this is the tip of the iceberg.


I agree.

OP

She agreed to take a poly.....make sure that it gets done.


----------



## Hurting71

italianjob said:


> I'm afraid I agree with marduk here, man.
> 
> She planned to go physical with Bill in 2012, executed her plan, no one knew anything for a year, you didn't know for two more years,
> she kept on going down there alone, and you truly think nothing else happened? And you are relying on her honesty (she lied to you for at least 3 years) to see if there is more?
> I think you are entering this reconciliation with your blinders on...
> 
> At least it's good she's ok with not traveling alone anymore...
> 
> Do I remember wrong or something was said about Bill visiting your town? What did you find out about this?


Bill came up here to Pennsylvania to have the affair.


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> Gotta get up a few bucks for a polygraph but it will happen. I need to know for sure.


I think you really do.


----------



## Hurting71

ButtPunch said:


> I agree.
> 
> OP
> 
> She agreed to take a poly.....make sure that it gets done.


Yes, she agreed to the poly without hesitation and she knows it's coming.


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> Bill came up here to Pennsylvania to have the affair.


So it wasn't a one time thing.

How many encounters did she admit to?


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> Bill came up here to Pennsylvania to have the affair.


I'm just going to say this, not to panic you, but because my gut is telling me to.

I'm afraid that there were more guys than Bill.

Are you positive there wasn't?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> So, using your metaphor, a good teacher wouldn't bust the student for cheating on a test, or give them a failing grade?
> 
> Which, in itself, is public?
> 
> This dog just doesn't hunt, JLD.


I said that if the teacher did not give the student the grade the student deserved, the teacher would lose his moral authority. Reread the post.

OP, I think you were very smart not to tell your family, and to handle this yourself. 

And don't forget, divorce is always an option. For both of you.


----------



## Hurting71

italianjob said:


> So it wasn't a one time thing.
> 
> How many encounters did she admit to?


She admitted to kissing/making out in the hot tub in Daytona and the one time that Bill flew up here. I have to know for sure hence the polygraph


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> I'm just going to say this, not to panic you, but because my gut is telling me to.
> 
> I'm afraid that there were more guys than Bill.
> 
> Are you positive there wasn't?


No, I am not positive. I don't know for sure if there are or were other men. I want to believe there weren't but just don't know. This is the reason for the poly.


----------



## jld

Kobold said:


> I'd be interested in hearing specifics about what you believe he should be doing to earn her respect back.


I think they both have to vow to be completely honest and open with each other from now on. That should earn each other's respect, and trust. 

They also each need to seek to understand the other, and to make decisions together for the best of their family. That, too, should increase the respect and trust they have in each other. 

OP, your wife seems repentant. I understand you need to feel you can trust her. It seems like she is trying to prove to you that you can.

Is there anything besides the poly you feel you need at this point?


----------



## italianjob

So, correct me if I'm wrong:

- At least one year affair, from 2012 to 2013 when Bill's fiancee hears the news.
- Met up down in fla and in your state several times.(read now; your wife says just once...)
- After that Bill's fiancee is confident they didn't hook up anymore.

Remains to be seen:
- If the time someone saw them in 2012 was actually the first hook up (it's quite strange for a woman who cheats for the first time to do so in such a public way)
- If Billìs Fiancee was really that effective in checking on them since 2013.
- If there were others, as Marduk fears


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I said that if the teacher did not give the student the grade the student deserved, the teacher would lose his moral authority. Reread the post.
> 
> OP, I think you were very smart not to tell your family, and to handle this yourself.
> 
> And don't forget, divorce is always an option. For both of you.


That was my point JLD. Transcripts are given out as part of job applications, and for children report cards go home to parents to sign.

So, in short, the teacher tells the parents, just like the betrayed husband can. 

Without losing authority.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> She admitted to kissing/making out in the hot tub in Daytona and the one time that Bill flew up here. I have to know for sure hence the polygraph


This is such a remote possability that I just can't see it.

How do you go from kissing to having sex in a semi public area and getting busted by her family?

This logic just isn't holding together.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> No, I am not positive. I don't know for sure if there are or were other men. I want to believe there weren't but just don't know. This is the reason for the poly.


Have you asked her?

Does she know it will be asked on the poly?


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> We sat face to face and I asked her the questions, the answers were not written down. I wanted to see her reaction to each question. There were a lot of tears on her part as I sat stone-faced and listened.* I almost felt bad putting her through that but I felt it needed to be done. *There have been many more questions after that that she has willingly answered.
> 
> We ride motorcycles we are not "bikers".
> 
> Her mother cheated on her first 2 husbands.


The bolder shows compassion on your part. Yes, you need the truth, but it is good to know you have compassion for her, too.

And again, she really does seem repentant.


----------



## Hurting71

when I look back I do have to say that there have been several time over the past few years that I have found her crying for seemingly no reason. When I asked why she was crying she couldn't really say anything or give any kind of reason. I would just hold her and tell her that I loved her until she stopped. She has had a few anxiety attacks over the last few years, something she has never had before. When I asked about how hard it was to keep the affair from me, again, she could barely mutter the words she said. I do believe she is completely mortified and because of this I want to believe her when she tells me this was the only time I just need to know for sure.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That was my point JLD. Transcripts are given out as part of job applications, and for children report cards go home to parents to sign.
> 
> So, in short, the teacher tells the parents, just like the betrayed husband can.
> 
> Without losing authority.


The teacher works for the parents, Marduk. The parents are the student's authority figures.

In this case, the authority figure is the husband.

OP, you seem to recognize the moral authority you have. I am just urging you to use your power wisely.

I just saw your 2:03 post. She is truly sorry, OP. You can see it.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> when I look back I do have to say that there have been several time over the past few years that I have found her crying for seemingly no reason. When I asked why she was crying she couldn't really say anything or give any kind of reason. I would just hold her and tell her that I loved her until she stopped. She has had a few anxiety attacks over the last few years, something she has never had before. When I asked about how hard it was to keep the affair from me, again, she could barely mutter the words she said. I do believe she is completely mortified and because of this I want to believe her when she tells me this was the only time I just need to know for sure.


She's lying.

I'm convinced of it, and I'm sorry.

I think you know it, too.

She may never be able to admit it, and may go into the poly knowing she'll fail. Because if she can't admit it to you, what else can she do?

Think about it from her perspective. She has everything to lose and nothing to gain by coming clean. Read some ladies thread's here who have had affairs. Educate yourself. It's human nature.

She desperately needs you to believe this was a one and done mistake, when it is far more likely to be a lifestyle choice.

But before you dig deeper, consider this: would it change you wanting to reconcile?


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> when I look back I do have to say that there have been several time over the past few years that I have found her crying for seemingly no reason. When I asked why she was crying she couldn't really say anything or give any kind of reason. I would just hold her and tell her that I loved her until she stopped. She has had a few anxiety attacks over the last few years, something she has never had before. When I asked about how hard it was to keep the affair from me, again, she could barely mutter the words she said. I do believe she is completely mortified and because of this I want to believe her when she tells me this was the only time I just need to know for sure.


I understand your need to believe, but your description of someone who is eaten by guilt in the way you describe doesn't really fit with someone going wild with another man in public and coldly planning for more at home.

You are describing a behavior of someone who had a slip up, and her affair seems anything but a slip up.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> The teacher works for the parents, Marduk. The parents are the student's authority figures.
> 
> In this case, the authority figure is the husband.
> 
> OP, you seem to recognize the moral authority you have. I am just urging you to use your power wisely.
> 
> I just saw your 2:03 post. She is truly sorry, OP. You can see it.


All you are saying is that your own metaphor doesn't work.

Tell the parents -- tell whoever you think you need to, OP. For you.


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> She's lying.
> 
> I'm convinced of it, and I'm sorry.
> 
> I think you know it, too.
> 
> She may never be able to admit it, and may go into the poly knowing she'll fail. Because if she can't admit it to you, what else can she do?
> 
> Think about it from her perspective. She has everything to lose and nothing to gain by coming clean. Read some ladies thread's here who have had affairs. Educate yourself. It's human nature.
> 
> She desperately needs you to believe this was a one and done mistake, when it is far more likely to be a lifestyle choice.
> 
> But before you dig deeper, consider this: would it change you wanting to reconcile?


Yes, it would change my decision to reconcile. One and done I think I might be able to get past but others, no way, I would divorce.


----------



## Pluto2

The reality is that you don't know if the tears were a sign of true remorse, or fear of discovery or any other emotion-and anyone who suggests otherwise is merely projecting.

Maybe you will learn the truth, maybe not. Either way, you are the one who must decide if you can live with it.


----------



## Hurting71

italianjob said:


> I understand your need to believe, but your description of someone who is eaten by guilt in the way you describe doesn't really fit with someone going wild with another man in public and coldly planning for more at home.
> 
> You are describing a behavior of someone who had a slip up, and her affair seems anything but a slip up.


It wasn't a public hot tub, it was at a family friends. The owner of the house caught them. I believe she is a good woman who made a bad choice. it was completely out of character for her.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> All you are saying is that your own metaphor doesn't work.
> 
> Tell the parents -- tell whoever you think you need to, OP. For you.


Marduk, you were the one who introduced the parents into the teacher/student metaphor. Once the parents are introduced, their authority supercedes that of the teacher.

In a marriage, the husband and wife are their own unit. The parents no longer have that authority. Or should not. I think the OP understands this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> It wasn't a public hot tub, it was at a family friends. The owner of the house caught them. I believe she is a good woman who made a bad choice. it was completely out of character for her.


Have you asked her why she did it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> It wasn't a public hot tub, it was at a family friends. The owner of the house caught them. I believe she is a good woman who made a bad choice. it was completely out of character for her.


So she went to a family friend's to consummate her YEAR LONG EMOTIONAL AFFAIR?

You buy that? That that was the only time? And she got the YEAR wrong because she misremembered it? Instead of maybe it's covering up multiple affairs that she hopes you don't notice?

Instead of that she had been getting away with it for a year under everyone's nose so she blatantly thought she would never get caught? Or wanted the thrill that she might?

Seriously?

Why did he fly out? Because he knew he was going to get laid.

Did he fly out more than once? Yes.

Did she fly away "to see her family who happens to be near him?" Yes.

More than once? Yes.

C'mon, man.


----------



## jld

Have you two put together a divorce plan, just in case either one of you is not satisfied with the reconciliation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> In a marriage, the husband and wife are their own unit. The parents no longer have that authority. Or should not. I think the OP understands this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lie of omission is still a lie. 

Do not lower yourself OP to protect her.


----------



## Pluto2

Yeah, never lie, even by omission, to protect a cheater. That doesn't mean you have to put a billboard with all the details, just don't protect her.

And given her family history, and the covering for her that has already taken place, it might serve you well to disclose to your parents, you deserve support in dealing with this. Of course, it is your call.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hurting,

We are dwelling on the past at this point. Yes, I would like to examine each of her answers. Yes would want to know both the why of her mother's adultery and how she felt about it.

But, first what are your post divorce plans ? Can you buy her out as keep the home? If the home must be sold can you get an apartment within your sons school district? Remember my post about knowing your states divorce laws? Stability is a huge factor in custody. Yes he is only 6, so will the apt be in a better school district? 

Have you taken divorce off the table ? 

What else are you doing today besides posting here and else where? What did you do yesterday ? 

Yes adultery and much of life is unfair and the scales will always be uneven. So what ? Life goes on. What are you thinking and doing right now ?


----------



## italianjob

Hurting71 said:


> It wasn't a public hot tub, it was at a family friends. The owner of the house caught them. I believe she is a good woman who made a bad choice. it was completely out of character for her.


It's still quite public for something so personal.

Even if the timeline and the facts as you were told were confirmed (and I seriously doubt it) this is not "a bad choice". This is a series of bad choices made knowingly and with a whole lot of time to think about it.

You should do what you want to do, but for your own good you should be more objective...


----------



## workindad

Hurting71 said:


> **Change in the timeline** Her affair actually happened in October 2012 not 2013. This in formation came from Bill's fiancé.
> 
> Her family knows, my family does not. We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help. I think we have to do this on our own under my terms. If the outcome is that we survive then we will have nobody to be grateful for other than each other and we'll be that much stronger together.
> 
> *My wife has taken 100% responsibility*, hasn't blamed me not one bit for her horrible choice, has answered all of my questions without hesitation and written a "no contact" letter to Bill even though I don't believe they haven't had any contact for a couple of years. She has agreed to counseling, both individual and together and a polygraph to make sure this hasn't happened before or since. She has done everything I have asked. Is she afraid she might lose me? Of course she is but I don't think that is her only motivation.
> 
> The affair did not take place in my home. Bill stayed at a local hotel. Her sister watched my son one night and our neighbor watched our son the second night, neither on knowing that she was having an affair.



OP- I wish you all the best as you navigate this mine field.

I'm having a hard time with the affair timeline and details provided. You say she is taking 100% responsibility- yet the updated timeline came from Bill's fiance and not your wife. That doesn't add up. Could it be that Bill's fiance only knew about the trip he made to PA for the hotel f-fest? 

Also, your wife did not confess. You discovered the affair and she confessed to what you already knew. Sorry, but that doesn't match up to the bolded response above either. Every day for the past several years- she lied to you. Every single day... that is not taking 100% responsibility- that was covering her cheating and lying arse. Sorry, I know it sucks.

Also, with the travel down to see her mom without you or your child- does not bode well. Why would grandma not want to see her grandchild who lives so far away.

Sorry- but the dots do not connect.

You are still being lied to. I know it sucks. I know you want to believe your wife, but until the dots line up- you are still being fed a never ending supply of BS.

If she's still lying, then she's not taking 100% responsibility and she's sorry she got caught. There is a difference.

Had you not found the F-book message she would have never told you.

If you want to R, that's great, but do so with all the facts. You are still in discovery mode. Make sure you follow thru with the polygraph and install a keylogger to see if she is searching for how to beat one. Do not give the test date away to her in advance and allow for the opportunity of a parking lot confession.


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> So she went to a family friend's to consummate her YEAR LONG EMOTIONAL AFFAIR?
> 
> You buy that? That that was the only time? And she got the YEAR wrong because she misremembered it? Instead of maybe it's covering up multiple affairs that she hopes you don't notice?
> 
> Instead of that she had been getting away with it for a year under everyone's nose so she blatantly thought she would never get caught? Or wanted the thrill that she might?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> Why did he fly out? Because he knew he was going to get laid.
> 
> Did he fly out more than once? Yes.
> 
> Did she fly away "to see her family who happens to be near him?" Yes.
> 
> More than once? Yes.
> 
> C'mon, man.


She didn't get the year wrong, I got the year wrong.

At this point I can only go with the facts that I have. To sit here and drive myself crazy wondering how many other times this MIGHT have happened seems pointless to me. I DO need to know and the poly will give me that info.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> At this point I can only go with the facts that I have. To sit here and drive myself crazy wondering how many other times this MIGHT have happened seems pointless to me. I DO need to know and the poly will give me that info.


What does she say to all this? You say she's remorseful... You say she's willing to do anything...

How does she account for these logical inconsistencies? Does she agree that it looks suspicious?

Does she know it will be asked on the poly?


----------



## GusPolinski

Test-Giving 101

Lesson #1:

Never reveal which questions will be asked on the test ahead of the actual test.

Lesson #2:

Be vigilant in watching for signs of "cheating" on the test (i.e. Google searches for "how to beat a poly").
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

GusPolinski said:


> Test-Giving 101
> 
> Lesson #1:
> 
> Never reveal which questions will be asked on the test ahead of the actual test.
> 
> Lesson #2:
> 
> Be vigilant in watching for signs of "cheating" on the test (i.e. Google searches for "how to beat a poly").
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not a fan of the poly approach. Mostly for biomechanical reasons -- I don't trust them. And logistical ones -- if I needed to give my wife a poly to believe her, I'd divorce her, because trust would be gone.

However, I do like the 'threat of a poly' approach, because it can force the truth. As can 'I will do deep forensics on your phone and computer and if I find out anything you haven't told me already, it will be a nasty divorce.'

With #1 I'd always throw in questions she wouldn't expect if I were to proceed.

With #2, good thought. Hadn't thought of that.


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> What does she say to all this? You say she's remorseful... You say she's willing to do anything...
> 
> How does she account for these logical inconsistencies? Does she agree that it looks suspicious?
> 
> Does she know it will be asked on the poly?


A recap for you:

My wife planned a surprise visit with Bill and her brother in October 2012 to see her mom. They picked her up at the airport and rode to Daytona for the Surprise. Flirting through text started with my wife and Bill prior to the trip. "Kissed only" in the hot tub in Daytona.

I had a fishing trip planned for November so Bill and my wife planned their Eff-Fest for when I was away. He flew up, they effed a few times and he went home. As far as I know he hasn't been back. I take a Spring and Fall fishing trip to Western NY every year so maybe he did come back, maybe he didn't. won't know till the poly.

Did she go back down alone to her parents, yes once for her brothers graduation from the fire academy and once for her other brothers EMT graduation. I don't know for sure if anything happened on those 2 trips but the poly will tell if anything did.


----------



## Evinrude58

Hurting71 said:


> A recap for you:
> 
> My wife planned a surprise visit with Bill and her brother in October to see her mom. They picked her up at the airport and rode to Daytona for the Surprise. Flirting through text started with my wife and Bill prior to the trip. "Kissed only" in the hot tub in Daytona.
> 
> I had a fishing trip planned for November so Bill and my wife planned their Eff-Fest for when I was away. He flew up, they effed a few times and he went home. As far as I know he hasn't been back. I take a Spring and Fall fishing trip to Western NY every year so maybe he did come back, maybe he didn't. won't know till the poly.
> 
> Did she go back down alone to her parents, yes once for her brothers graduation from the fire academy and once for her other brothers EMT graduation. I don't know for sure if anything happened on those 2 trips but the poly will tell if anything did.


I just don't think a polygraph is necessary for this. It's so incredibly obvious. You just need to figure out if she is actually remorseful, if you can ever trust her again, and if you think she has enough respect for you to remain your husband long term or do you think there will be a repeat performance with Bill or some other man.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I just don't think a polygraph is necessary for this. It's so incredibly obvious. You just need to figure out if she is actually remorseful, if you can ever trust her again, and if you think she has enough respect for you to remain your husband long term or do you think there will be a repeat performance with Bill or some other man.


I think he is worried there were other men, or other times with the OM. He wants to know for sure.


----------



## Hurting71

JohnA said:


> Hi Hurting,
> 
> We are dwelling on the past at this point. Yes, I would like to examine each of her answers. Yes would want to know both the why of her mother's adultery and how she felt about it.
> 
> But, first what are your post divorce plans ? Can you buy her out as keep the home? If the home must be sold can you get an apartment within your sons school district? Remember my post about knowing your states divorce laws? Stability is a huge factor in custody. Yes he is only 6, so will the apt be in a better school district?
> 
> Have you taken divorce off the table ?
> 
> What else are you doing today besides posting here and else where? What did you do yesterday ?
> 
> Yes adultery and much of life is unfair and the scales will always be uneven. So what ? Life goes on. What are you thinking and doing right now ?


Divorce isn't off the table.
We would sell the house.
Yes I can get an apartment within his school district.
We are both "stable" if there is such a thing, we would share custody. She is not spiteful or vengeful. 
I'm only posting here. Found a local Psychologist. Talked to a Polygraph company about cost and procedure.


----------



## Hurting71

jld said:


> I think he is worried there were other men, or other times with the OM. He wants to know for sure.


Yes, I am. I have to know.


----------



## Marduk

What does your gut say?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

OP 

A few words of wisdom. I think it is a little premature to be deciding on R or D.
You first posted here 12/15. Get yourself and emotions together. 

Find out the truth. Someone posted earlier that you will never really know if your
WW is remorseful. The only true indicator is time and a huge leap of faith on your part.

Don't rush into anything.


----------



## harrybrown

What is she telling you about any other times with Bill?


Does not make sense to have a "mistake" in the hot tub and have Bill fly up only once.

There had to be flirting and other steps along the way.

Has she given you the entire timeline in writing of her A?

She did something before they got caught in the hottub. Had to at least be thinking about getting it on with Bill and actions before the actual deeds.

She should tell you now in writing about all the flirting and she got into the hot tub with Bill. She would not stop with just one trip.

Good luck to you.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> This is such a remote possability that I just can't see it.
> 
> How do you go from kissing to having sex in a semi public area and getting busted by her family?
> 
> This logic just isn't holding together.


Why would she spend all the time, effort and money to go down to Florida and NOT have sex with him? That makes no sense. 

She's lying through her pretty teeth.


----------



## jigga114

Hurting, I agree with you that the poly is a must. For the sake of your sanity, you can not live the rest of your life with doubts eating you alive. It's good that you have not taken D off the table. There can be no guarantees. Your W sounds like she wants to stay with you, and it sounds like you want to stay with her. Make it clear to her that in order for both of you to achieve your goals, lying will no longer be tolerated. Whatever consequence/s you prescribe for anymore lies about the A must be followed through on. So don't threaten with consequences you are not willing to follow through with. Listen to your gut though. You know your W better than internet strangers and you are the one dealing with her on a daily basis. You seem level headed, not needy and smart. You are dealing with this **** sandwich very well, and are way ahead of the curve. Stay strong, and you'll be good regardless of how this situation works out.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hurting,

Thanks for the info. When I was where you are many of these same emotions I found overwhelming and at times I felt myself shutting down. The only thing that kept me going was forcing myself to develop real options regardless of the outcome. 

Your answer was good but keep going along these lines. Doing so makes your wife more aware of her possible futures. Not a bad.


----------



## Popcorn2015

Hurting71 said:


> Her family knows, *my family does not.* We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help.


Stupid.


----------



## jld

Popcorn2015 said:


> Stupid.


Why do you think it is stupid?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Hurting71 said:


> A recap for you:
> 
> My wife planned a surprise visit with Bill and her brother in October 2012 to see her mom. They picked her up at the airport and rode to Daytona for the Surprise. Flirting through text started with my wife and Bill prior to the trip. "Kissed only" in the hot tub in Daytona.
> 
> I had a fishing trip planned for November so Bill and my wife planned their Eff-Fest for when I was away. He flew up, they effed a few times and he went home.


You wrote earlier that you "think" you could get past a "one and done".

You know the "kissing" in the hot tub was actually sex. You know that the OM flew up to have sex(multiple times) with your wife after that, while you were away.

I wouldn't consider this a one and done my friend. I'm not saying that you should scrap the idea of R'ing, but keep things in perspective. She flew down there knowing full well that she was going to have sex with him. He flew up there and she also knew full well that she was going to have sex with him again, and again and again...


These actions/facts will weigh heavily on you in the years to come, if you two get things worked out enough to stay married.

You'll both be jumping over a lot of hurdles in the months to come. When enough time has passed and things settle back down to "normal", there will be times when you feel like you, alone, are still navigating the hurdles. Seemingly, now alone.

This is when your metal will truly be tested. I would tell her that if you R and you end up staying married, she needs to understand that things will never be the same as they once were.

It doesn't mean that things will never be better than they once were. Just not the same.

She needs to know that the burden you now carry will never completely fade away. There will be moments, maybe even days, when it weighs on you. From seemingly out of the blue. When this happens, she needs to know how to help you through it.

As you also need to know how to help her if it starts weighing on her(Yes everyone. I know that she cheated, but if she's truly sorry, she will have bad moments/days).


All this is given that she is remorseful about hurting you vs. about getting caught. I feel that the jury is still out on this(see top of post). I won't be a bit surprised if she started TT'ing you as the poly test drew nearer. I hope I'm wrong, but the odd's are against you on this one.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popcorn2015 View Post
Stupid.



jld said:


> Why do you think it is stupid?


Because some posters feel that exposing far and wide will diminish the chances of the affair continuing/starting again/new affairs.

We know that you don't agree with big exposure, but there's only so many things a BS can do.

YES, I know, this could back fire and the WS may leave over it. But the other side of the coin is if the consequences were so severe the first time, it may just be the thing that keeps it happening a second time.

If you think about it, as long as the BS's exposure is 100% the truth, any pain experienced by the WS from it is limited by what that truth is. When you're doin' the "crime", you knew that you were riskin' the "time" kinda thing.

But hey, I'm a FBS, so that's how I roll.:smile2:


----------



## jld

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Because some posters feel that exposing far and wide will diminish the chances of the affair continuing/starting again/new affairs.
> 
> We know that you don't agree with big exposure, but there's only so many things a BS can do.
> 
> YES, I know, this could back fire and the WS may leave over it. But the other side of the coin is if the consequences were so severe the first time, it may just be the thing that keeps it happening a second time.
> 
> If you think about it, as long as the BS's exposure is 100% the truth, any pain experienced by the WS from it is limited by what that truth is. When you're doin' the "crime", you knew that you were riskin' the "time" kinda thing.
> 
> But hey, I'm a FBS, so that's how I roll.:smile2:


You expose to stop the affair, correct? But the affair is over.

A few suggested he could get emotional support from his parents by exposing to them. If he needs it, then it is certainly his choice. He doesn't seem to need it, though.


----------



## Be smart

Good luck to you my friend and your R plans. It is your life and your decision.

You know things you said about your wife are not true. You want to belive they are,maybe because you dont want to be hurt even more.

First of all she lied to you for YEARS about her Affair.

She never told you about it. You know what this means ? She is willing to lie to you and hide things from you just to protect herself and Bill. She does not care about you,your pain and your humilation.

You found about her Affair from faceook msg. and from Bills fiance. 

She PLANNED this Affair so she knew what she was doing. Going alone to Bill,,then fining babysiter for your son so she can sleep with him again and again.

What do you think she was doing when she goes to her mother ? Also her mother cheated TWO TIMES on her previous husbands and I can bet my life she suported her through this.

They only kised once. Come on man you are smarter then this. 

Your wife is telling you all things you want to hear right now. She is sorry,she cryes a lot bla bla.

Ask yourself a question what did she do for you from 2012 to now!!! It is a lot years my friend and she could show you how much she loves you and how sorry she was,but she did not.


Stay strong


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

jld said:


> You expose to stop the affair, correct? But the affair is over.
> 
> A few suggested he could get emotional support from his parents by exposing to them. If he needs it, then it is certainly his choice. He doesn't seem to need it, though.


Exposing can help stop an affair. It can also deter it from being rekindled. And I dare say, deter a possible future affair with a different AP.

You may see this as a BS rubbing a WS's nose in it.

I see this as "it" was created by the WS, so what ever the reason(s) the BS has for exposing are fair game. Don't try to stab me in the back, then complain when I've broken the hand you held the knife with.

I don't know if exposing to the parents is a good, or bad, decision for him. I do know that if he doesn't, the reason is most likely to avoid the embarrassment for him, not for her. If this is the case, I completely understand because I've been there myself.


----------



## workindad

bandit.45 said:


> Why would she spend all the time, effort and money to go down to Florida and NOT have sex with him? That makes no sense.
> 
> She's lying through her pretty teeth.


Unfortunately Bandit... I absolutely agree with you on this post.

It just doesn't add up that she wasn't already banging him prior to his trip to PA. Before POSOM spent the money for plane tickets and a hotel- he had to be absolutely sure that she was in the bag. POSOM would not part with the cash and waste his time for a freaking kiss.

It was a well planned [email protected] that they were both looking forward to. Obviously, it was a fantastic experience for her or she would have never gone back for round two at the PA hotel.


----------



## Marduk

I love how speaking the truth to your own family becomes distorted into some kind of punishment. 

Truth is truth.


----------



## jld

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Exposing can help stop an affair. It can also deter it from being rekindled. And I dare say, deter a possible future affair with a different AP.
> 
> You may see this as a BS rubbing a WS's nose in it.
> 
> I see this as "it" was created by the WS, so what ever the reason(s) the BS has for exposing are fair game. Don't try to stab me in the back, then complain when I've broken the hand you held the knife with.
> 
> I don't know if exposing to the parents is a good, or bad, decision for him. I do know that if he doesn't, the reason is most likely to avoid the embarrassment for him, not for her. If this is the case, I completely understand because I've been there myself.


I think he has already decided not to tell them.

I think a man takes a big risk by getting his parents involved. It sounds like you realized that, too.

When I was a young teacher, I had a hard time disciplining one of my classes. The kids were not listening. I thought about asking one of the deans to come in and talk to that class. 

My dept. head advised me against it. He told me that you were always better off establishing authority on your own, rather than appealing to an external source. 

And really, in the end, it is all about developing the relationship, and earning trust.


----------



## eric1

The only thing with the poly is that you absolutely need to establish consequences for anything but the truth, then absolutely have to stick to plan.

And yes, parking lot confessions don't get extra credit points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Evinrude58

Hurting71 said:


> Yes, I am. I have to know.


I know what you mean. I wasn't sure whether you wanted to reconcile or not, or if she was willing to take the polygraph. I'd hate to see that polygraph needle start flying off the machine when she gets within ten feet of it....

I feel for you! But I understand it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I think he has already decided not to tell them.
> 
> I think a man takes a big risk by getting his parents involved. It sounds like you realized that, too.
> 
> When I was a young teacher, I had a hard time disciplining one of my classes. The kids were not listening. I thought about asking one of the deans to come in and talk to that class.
> 
> My dept. head advised me against it. *He told me that you were always better off establishing authority on your own, rather than appealing to an external source.*
> 
> And really, in the end, it is all about developing the relationship, and earning trust.


How did you go about doing this? You left that part out.

And don't you homeschool your own children now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> How did you go about doing this? You left that part out.


Did you read the last line?



> And don't you homeschool your own children now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Did you read the last line?


Yep. All I saw was a meaningless platitude.

Still, precisely how did you go about "developing relationships" and "earning trust"?

And here's an even better question...

Exactly how does a relationship w/ a school-aged child -- or even an entire classroom full of them -- compare to one's relationship w/ his or her spouse, especially once infidelity has entered the picture?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> According to whom?


Right off the top of my head?

Your beloved Dr. Harley.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Yep. All I saw was a meaningless platitude.
> 
> Still, precisely how did you go about "developing relationships" and "earning trust"?
> 
> And here's an even better question...
> 
> Exactly how does a relationship w/ a school-aged child -- or even an entire classroom full of them -- compare to one's relationship w/ his or her spouse, especially once infidelity has entered the picture?


I think building relationships and earning trust are pretty similar with anyone you are doing it with. Obviously there is a more intimate aspect to a spousal relationship.

But as far as that particular class, I had to stop being so strict and rule-focused with the students. I was a serious teacher, and I needed to relax. 

One day we just sat and talked about the war in Bosnia, and stories we had seen about it on the news. I remember that day in particular as a day of connection, people's values coming out. We just set aside our books and opened our hearts about the suffering we had seen.

Once I stopped being so intense, everybody started relaxing. We all smiled more. Everyone started to feel more comfortable. 

I did not realize it, but the daughter of one of the school board members was in that class. She later told the principal that her daughter, who could not stand my class at the beginning of the year, by the end of the semester said it was her favorite class, and I was her favorite teacher. 

And all it took was relaxing, and being understanding, and not laser-focused on accomplishment.


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Didn't she get busted by her family as well?
> 
> Seems logical to let them know that you know.


Agreed. They already know, so obviously there's no need to expose to them.

Exposing to his own family, though? Eh... maybe. That's up to him. If he feels a need for their support then he should absolutely do it. If he feels it necessary in order to bring about additional accountability then OK... sure.

Still, if he doesn't want to do it then he shouldn't.

If HER family were unaware of it, though?

I'd absolutely suggest telling them.

Should he expose to anyone out of malice, though? No, at least not where his wife is concerned.

Unless, of course, he wants to divorce, and it doesn't sound like he wants. And even then the fallout might impact things like custody of minor children.

Bottom line -- exposure should always be done w/ a specific purpose that has nothing to do w/ being punitive.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Right off the top of my head?
> 
> Your beloved Dr. Harley.


What is the question again?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Agreed. They already know, so obviously there's no need to expose to them.
> 
> Exposing to his own family, though? Eh... maybe. That's up to him. If he feels a need for their support then he should absolutely do it. If he feels it necessary in order to bring about additional accountability then OK... sure.
> 
> Still, if he doesn't want to do it then he shouldn't.
> 
> If HER family were unaware of it, though?
> 
> I'd absolutely suggest telling them.
> 
> Should he expose to anyone out of malice, though? No, at least not where his wife is concerned.
> 
> Unless, of course, he wants to divorce, and it doesn't sound like he wants. And even then the fallout might impact things like custody of minor children.
> 
> Bottom line -- exposure should always be done w/ a specific purpose that has nothing to do w/ being punitive.


Didn't you say that you did not tell your wife's parents about her affairs?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I think building relationships and earning trust are pretty similar with anyone you are doing it with. Obviously there is a more intimate aspect to a spousal relationship.
> 
> But as far as that particular class, I had to stop being so strict and rule-focused with the students. I was a serious teacher, and I needed to relax.
> 
> One day we just sat and talked about the war in Bosnia, and stories we had seen about it on the news. I remember that day in particular as a day of connection, people's values coming out. We just set aside our books and opened our hearts about the suffering we had seen.
> 
> Once I stopped being so intense, everybody started relaxing. We all smiled more. Everyone started to feel more comfortable.
> 
> I did not realize it, but the daughter of one of the school board members was in that class. She later told the principal that her daughter, who could not stand my class at the beginning of the year, by the end of the semester said it was her favorite class, and I was her favorite teacher.
> 
> And all it took was relaxing, and being understanding, and not laser-focused on accomplishment.


So basically you realized that you were teaching a classroom of young children and softened a bit.

That's great.

OP's WW is an _adult_, BTW.

Would your approach have been at all different if you were teaching a class of adults?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Didn't you say that you did not tell your wife's parents about her affairs?


I did not.

If I'd felt it at all beneficial to do so (for support purposes), however, I would have.

If I'd felt it necessary to do so in order to get her to cut out the bullsh*t, however, I'd have just divorced.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> I did not.
> 
> If I'd felt it at all beneficial to do so (for support purposes), however, I would have.
> 
> If I'd felt it necessary to do so in order to get her to cut out the bullsh*t, however, I'd have just divorced.


You did not tell your wife's parents about her affairs.

But you advise other men to tell their wife's parents.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> So basically you realized that you were teaching a classroom of young children and softened a bit.
> 
> That's great.
> 
> OP's WW is an _adult_, BTW.
> 
> Would your approach have been at all different if you were teaching a class of adults?


I taught high school. 

I think you have to be even gentler with adults. 

I taught at a company about fifteen years ago, and found out I really had to be soft and undemanding. Everything was a sales job.

If adult students feel embarrassed for any reason, they are unlikely to come back. And without students, there are no more contracts.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hurting71 said:


> It wasn't a public hot tub, it was at a family friends. The owner of the house caught them. I believe she is a good woman who made a bad choice. *it was completely out of character for her.*


I'm going to say this, and I feel badly about it, and I'm sorry...

At this point you simply have no way of knowing whether or not this (the part in bold above) is true.

Be skeptical.

Keep your eyes open.

Question everything.

And remember this -- if she's telling you something that doesn't make sense, it's probably because it's not true.


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> *I'm not a fan of the poly approach.* Mostly for biomechanical reasons -- I don't trust them. And logistical ones -- if I needed to give my wife a poly to believe her, I'd divorce her, because trust would be gone.
> 
> However, I do like the 'threat of a poly' approach, because it can force the truth. As can 'I will do deep forensics on your phone and computer and if I find out anything you haven't told me already, it will be a nasty divorce.'
> 
> With #1 I'd always throw in questions she wouldn't expect if I were to proceed.
> 
> With #2, good thought. Hadn't thought of that.


Me either. There are simply too many variables. Some people are better liars than others. Some people are just plain jittery, especially when they're placed in the hot seat. Some people have heart conditions (a palpitation, for example) or are on certain medications that may obfuscate the results.

IMO, polys are good for two things -- parking lot confessions and (of course) catching something like "how to beat a poly" in a Google search, and to do that you'll need to have a pretty solid system of monitoring in place.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hurting71 said:


> A recap for you:
> 
> My wife planned a surprise visit with Bill and her brother in October 2012 to see her mom. They picked her up at the airport and rode to Daytona for the Surprise. Flirting through text started with my wife and Bill prior to the trip. *"Kissed only" in the hot tub in Daytona.*


This is likely a lie. The only way that it could possibly be true is if they were busted prior to doing the actual deed.



Hurting71 said:


> I had a fishing trip planned for November so Bill and my wife planned their Eff-Fest for when I was away. He flew up, they effed a few times and he went home. As far as I know he hasn't been back. I take a Spring and Fall fishing trip to Western NY every year so maybe he did come back, maybe he didn't. won't know till the poly.
> 
> Did she go back down alone to her parents, yes once for her brothers graduation from the fire academy and once for her other brothers EMT graduation. I don't know for sure if anything happened on those 2 trips but the poly will tell if anything did.


Her family knowing but not saying anything is a HUGE problem, at least for me. Pretty tough to reconcile that in my head.

I'm assuming that they're now aware that you've learned of the affair? Apologies if you've covered that already.

Also, is your MIL's _current_ husband also your wife's father? Was he one of her affair partners?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> You did not tell your wife's parents about her affairs.
> 
> But you advise other men to tell their wife's parents.


If it's of benefit to them, yes.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> If it's of benefit to them, yes.


For support reasons, correct? Emotional support? For the wife?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> For support reasons, correct? Emotional support? For the wife?


Yes, mostly, though the accountability argument isn't lost on me.

If said accountability is necessary to end the affair (or affair_s_) in question, though, I'd advise divorce.

That doesn't appear to be what OP wants, though. And it's something of a moot point in his case anyway, as her family is already aware.

And it sounds like her parents may be a couple of cheaters as well, so I don't know how much good it would do in terms of accountability.

Her brother sounds like a decent guy, though.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Hurting71 said:


> **Change in the timeline** Her affair actually happened in October 2012 not 2013. This in formation came from Bill's fiancé.
> 
> Her family knows, my family does not. We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help. I think we have to do this on our own under my terms. If the outcome is that we survive then we will have nobody to be grateful for other than each other and we'll be that much stronger together.
> 
> My wife has taken 100% responsibility, hasn't blamed me not one bit for her horrible choice, has answered all of my questions without hesitation and written a "no contact" letter to Bill even though I don't believe they haven't had any contact for a couple of years. She has agreed to counseling, both individual and together and a polygraph to make sure this hasn't happened before or since. She has done everything I have asked. Is she afraid she might lose me? Of course she is but I don't think that is her only motivation.
> 
> The affair did not take place in my home. Bill stayed at a local hotel. Her sister watched my son one night and our neighbor watched our son the second night, neither on knowing that she was having an affair.


She should be required to apologize to both of them for making them part of her adultry by having them watch her children while she goes out to betray her husband.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Popcorn2015 said:


> Hurting71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Her family knows, *my family does not.* We will handle this without either of our families help, I don't want their help.
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid.
Click to expand...

I'd have a serious freaking problem with the fact they knew and did not tell me. I would likely limit my visits and contact with the in-laws. One of those "Your family can kiss my azz" moments. We will not be seeing you till I'm over this crap!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

marduk said:


> I love how speaking the truth to your own family becomes distorted into some kind of punishment.
> 
> Truth is truth.


You probably missed the thread that was closed, the OP was run off and they harassed the guy for exposure. It was awful. So, I' am no longer surprised when people scream "exposure bad you meanie punisher person."


----------



## jld

jld said:


> Have you asked her why she did it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hurting, have you discussed this with her?

The reason why could have a great deal to do with the chances for a successful reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Until you have a factually accurate timeline which probably won't happen until the poly, her answers to any "Why" questions will most likely not be truthful. They will be filled with blameshifting platitudes. Had she been willing to be truthful two years ago, it would be a different story.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Until you have a factually accurate timeline which probably won't happen until the poly, her answers to any "Why" questions will most likely not be truthful. They will be filled with blameshifting platitudes. Had she been willing to be truthful two years ago, it would be a different story.


He is going to have to trust her at some point, Pluto, if there is to be a reconciliation. 

And Dug said there are some questions about the accuracy of polygraphs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> He is going to have to trust her at some point, Pluto, if there is to be a reconciliation.


Which is her job to earn; by being truthful; repeatedly, due to her history of blatant lies.

If you don't want your integrity questioned, don't do things that cause people to question your integrity.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Which is her job to earn; by being truthful; repeatedly, due to her history of blatant lies.
> 
> If you don't want your integrity questioned, don't do things that cause people to question your integrity.


I don't disagree. Transparency breeds trust.

But he seems to want to reconcile. And the actions that he takes are going to affect her ability to reconcile, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

jld said:


> He is going to have to trust her at some point, Pluto, if there is to be a reconciliation.
> 
> And Dug said there are some questions about the accuracy of polygraphs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is correct, trust can be established after the person who broke the trust re-establishes trust. 

In short, it's her problem.


----------



## jld

eric1 said:


> That is correct, trust can be established after the person who broke the trust re-establishes trust.
> 
> In short, it's her problem.


I think in a marriage, it is more complicated than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurting71

Pluto2 said:


> Until you have a factually accurate timeline which probably won't happen until the poly, her answers to any "Why" questions will most likely not be truthful. They will be filled with blameshifting platitudes. Had she been willing to be truthful two years ago, it would be a different story.


She's not blaming me, she has not said anything at to me that made me feel like it was my fault. I have said to her that if she had only come clean back then when it happened things would be different. The three years of lying is very hard foe me to understand.


----------



## eric1

jld said:


> I think in a marriage, it is more complicated than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great. Congrats


----------



## Pluto2

Today, right now, she has to deal with the consequences of lying and cheating. One of those consequences is people no longer believe the things she says. Her job is to earn that trust back. Until that happens, until that has been earned, no you don't trust them. To do so is foolish for any meaningful reconciliation. To trust without effort on her part, or verification of what she says is called rug-sweeping and will almost certainly result in a false R.


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> She's not blaming me, she has not said anything at to me that made me feel like it was my fault. I have said to her that if she had only come clean back then when it happened things would be different. The three years of lying is very hard foe me to understand.


She was probably scared. It takes courage to tell the truth.

I take it you have not asked her why she cheated?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurting71

jld said:


> Hurting, have you discussed this with her?
> 
> The reason why could have a great deal to do with the chances for a successful reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We were having problems back when this happened and prior to. She said she thought we were going to end up divorced. She discussed our problems with Bill, he consoled her (primed her for the effing) and she said that made her feel good. She has never been a good communicator, usually shuts down in an argument rather than openly talking about what or how she is feeling. This drives me crazy. I would rather have her scream at the top of her lungs, throw things whatever, but shutting down really bothered me. I always want to know how she is feeling and thinking.


----------



## convert

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Exposing can help stop an affair. *It can also deter it from being rekindled. And I dare say, deter a possible future affair with a different AP.*
> 
> You may see this as a BS rubbing a WS's nose in it.
> 
> I see this as "it" was created by the WS, so what ever the reason(s) the BS has for exposing are fair game. Don't try to stab me in the back, then complain when I've broken the hand you held the knife with.
> 
> I don't know if exposing to the parents is a good, or bad, decision for him. I do know that if he doesn't, the reason is most likely to avoid the embarrassment for him, not for her. If this is the case, I completely understand because I've been there myself.


I agree

One of the most important things to do when dealing with infidelity

even Doctor Harley advocates exposure


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I don't disagree. Transparency breeds trust.
> 
> But he seems to want to reconcile. And the actions that he takes are going to affect her ability to reconcile, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she was willing to risk the marriage in order to sleep with another man, she ought to be willing to risk divorce for reconciliation.

Don't consequences suck...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> We were having problems back when this happened and prior to. She said she thought we were going to end up divorced. She discussed our problems with Bill, he consoled her (primed her for the effing) and she said that made her feel good. She has never been a good communicator, usually shuts down in an argument rather than openly talking about what or how she is feeling. This drives me crazy. I would rather have her scream at the top of her lungs, throw things whatever, but shutting down really bothered me. I always want to know how she is feeling and thinking.


This info is very good. It is something you can work with to make a successful reconciliation.

You know that reconciliation takes two. You both need to be as honest as possible with each other. She needs to feel safe and comfortable doing that. Has she said why she did not feel safe doing that with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

watch out OP......


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> If she was willing to risk the marriage in order to sleep with another man, she ought to be willing to risk divorce for reconciliation.
> 
> Don't consequences suck...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Could you be more specific?

They will both lose in a divorce, far. She is not the only one risking something, nor the only one receiving consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurting71

Pluto2 said:


> watch out OP......


Watch out for what?


----------



## MattMatt

Your wife did open up, to someone outside the marriage, who turned out to be a player. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurting71

jld said:


> This info is very good. It is something you can work with to make a successful reconciliation.
> 
> You know that reconciliation takes two. You both need to be as honest as possible with each other. She needs to feel safe and comfortable doing that. Has she said why she did not feel safe doing that with you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she hasn't said why.


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> No, she hasn't said why.


I asked because to reconcile you are both going to have to address the conditions that were present before her affair. She needs to be completely open and honest with you. That will prevent the sneaking that allowed the affair to happen and go unconfessed.

You can help her be honest by making it safe for her to come to you. Being calm and understanding when she comes to you will make her more comfortable in doing so.

And you are not obliged to reconcile. Divorce is always an option, for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

jld said:


> You expose to stop the affair, correct?


Wrong.

Stopping affair is one reason, not the only reason.


----------



## sparrow555

Hurting71 said:


> when I look back I do have to say that there have been several time over the past few years that I have found her crying for seemingly no reason. When I asked why she was crying she couldn't really say anything or give any kind of reason. I would just hold her and tell her that I loved her until she stopped. She has had a few anxiety attacks over the last few years, something she has never had before. When I asked about how hard it was to keep the affair from me, again, she could barely mutter the words she said. I do believe she is completely mortified and because of this I want to believe her when she tells me this was the only time I just need to know for sure.


I know this might sound cruel, but maybe she missed her lover. or maybe she is crying because her marriage has no passion at all and she is stuck with you because of the kids/ 

And she actually found it pretty easy to hide the affair. You accidentally found it, didn't you ?


----------



## Sammy64

Hurting71 said:


> Watch out for what?


Op, Go read gridcom thread.. and pay attention to the posters...


----------



## jld

sparrow555 said:


> I know this might sound cruel, but maybe she missed her lover. or maybe she is crying because her marriage has no passion at all and she is stuck with you because of the kids/
> 
> And she actually found it pretty easy to hide the affair. You accidentally found it, didn't you ?


She probably felt bad about what she had done, but did not feel safe confessing. She was in over her head and was not strong enough to get out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

You deal with the infidelity.
Then after that has been dealt with, look at the overall relationship. But that is way down the road. To do it now would absolve your spouse of her responsibility to the relationship.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> You deal with the infidelity.
> Then after that has been dealt with, look at the overall relationship. But that is way down the road. To do it now would absolve your spouse of her responsibility to the relationship.


She still has to be open and honest with him, forever. I don't see how she is being absolved of anything.

If I were you, OP, I would be focusing on the Why starting right now. That is the fast track to a successful reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> She probably felt bad about what she had done, but did not feel safe confessing. She was in over her head and was not strong enough to get out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MIND READING.....How exactly do you know this?

OP....Get to 50,000 feet


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> MIND READING.....How exactly do you know this?
> 
> OP....Get to 50,000 feet


Sounds plausible to me.

OP could ask her and find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

... And again her marriage is in crisis, she's struggling to communicate, and has every reason to think you're going to get divorced. 

I wonder what man she's going to turn to this time? History repeats. 

Red alert, OP. This may not be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Sounds plausible to me.
> 
> OP could ask her and find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Doesn't mean she will tell the truth. I bet the farm she will not.
She has demonstrated already her propensity to lie.


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> Doesn't mean she will tell the truth. I bet the farm she will not.
> She has demonstrated already her propensity to lie.


I don't think she ever stopped. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't lying to Bill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> ... And again her marriage is in crisis, she's struggling to communicate, and has every reason to think you're going to get divorced.
> 
> I wonder what man she's going to turn to this time? History repeats.
> 
> Red alert, OP. This may not be done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sad but true.....

OP watch her actions. This is the only way to see if your WW is truly remorseful. Her tears and promises are meaningless right now


----------



## Marduk

marduk said:


> No. No. No. Just ****ing no.
> 
> "By this time tomorrow, send me a document with a complete timeline of events of your interactions with ****head. With complete sexual details and what happened when. If you do not provide this, or you omit events or change things to make it seem less bad than reality, I will know, and I will leave immediately, and tell everyone about it. You will include any other men that you've cheated on me with -- I will find out if you are lying. You will also write ****head a letter stipulating no further contact between you and him and let me read it before you send it, and if you contact him further I will know."
> 
> End of communication for that day.


Remember way back when?

Did you do this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Doesn't mean she will tell the truth. I bet the farm she will not.
> She has demonstrated already her propensity to lie.


She seems open and honest now. I think OP feels that from her, or he would not be interested in reconciling.

OP, remember that you two do not have to reconcile. Divorce is always an option, for both of you.

Did you see my question to you yesterday about discussing a divorce plan? Have you two done that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hurting - here's some very important information. I blocked JLD from my feed - this is a menu choice - after she gave horrendous advice on two other threads and caused irreparable damage to the BS. Her views seen to be that the H is always emotionally responsible for the W and therefore any marital issues are the H's to solve. She has posted s great deal about how the BS is to blame for the selfish actions of the WS. Because she and her husband have no experience with infidelity in marriage she knows nothing of the pain and betrayal that results, and the complete responsibility that belongs to the WS to repair and try to rebuild trust. You should not take any responsibility for this - it is your WS's responsibility to earn your trust through complete transparency. Even then she may not fully re-earn it.

JLD's posts raise the ire of people who have experienced what you have. Take what you want from her thoughts but he aware of this history.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> She seems open and honest now. I think OP feels that from her, or he would not be interested in reconciling.
> 
> OP, remember that you two do not have to reconcile. Divorce is always an option, for both of you.
> 
> Did you see my question to you yesterday about discussing a divorce plan? Have you two done that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO......NO........NO

Do not push for divorce unless you want a divorce.

Do not push R either. Get to 50,000 feet and watch her.
She agreed to poly. Follow thru with it. 

Time will give you your answers.


----------



## happyman64

> I always want to know how she is feeling and thinking.


And how are her communication skills with you since she has been caught?

You said she I s remorseful. Has she openly said she does not want a divorce?

You wonder how she hid the affair for so long? The answer is easily.

Her ability to compartmentalize her cheating and dishonesty is something you need to take into consideration.

The fact she messed with thus guy while with family, gets caught, plans with him to consummate their affair with a weekend romp in your hometown says volumes about her ability to cope with her own issues, her own selfishness and then covers it all up so well since then should be sending you warning signals about her need for some time with a good shrink.

Do the poly. Get your answers.

Then watch your wife's action to determine her level of remorse.

Last but not least encourage her to get professional care on the issues I listed above.

Do this so you are both not wasting your time with R if she cannot do the hard work to repair the damage.

You are doing great.

HM
PS
Ask your BIL to punch his best friend right in his face for "F'ing" his married sister and crapping in his marriage. 
:wink2:
After all what is family for......


----------



## Pluto2

I'm not sure you should make any plans about D or R until you know what you are dealing with.

You seem to be very open and thoughtful, and I bet your W knows that. So until you actually know more facts, try to detach a bit. It helps you heal from what you've learned. Yes, it might impact your W-good, it should. She should appreciate that infidelity, to many, is unacceptable. If it did not impact you and your relationship you wouldn't have much a relationship to begin with.
There is no reason you have to decide anything now-other than to acquire the elusive truth,


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hurting - here's some very important information. I blocked JLD from my feed - this is a menu choice - after she gave horrendous advice on two other threads and caused irreparable damage to the BS. Her views seen to be that the H is always emotionally responsible for the W and therefore any marital issues are the H's to solve. She has posted s great deal about how the BS is to blame for the selfish actions of the WS. Because she and her husband have no experience with infidelity in marriage she knows nothing of the pain and betrayal that results, and the complete responsibility that belongs to the WS to repair and try to rebuild trust. You should not take any responsibility for this - it is your WS's responsibility to earn your trust through complete transparency. Even then she may not fully re-earn it.
> 
> JLD's posts raise the ire of people who have experienced what you have. Take what you want from her thoughts but he aware of this history.


No fear and defensiveness in that post. 

OP, my belief is that affairs happen for a reason. You have to find out the reason so that you can prevent future affairs. It usually takes both people working together to prevent another affair. Leaving it all up to the cheater is risky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> She seems open and honest now. I think OP feels that from her, or he would not be interested in reconciling.
> 
> OP, remember that you two do not have to reconcile. Divorce is always an option, for both of you.
> 
> Did you see my question to you yesterday about discussing a divorce plan? Have you two done that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


entertaining the idea of a divorce this early?
barely a month the focus it to heal.

In any situation never entertain the idea of getting a divorce. and informing the partner early.

If you do plan to divorce i suggest that he keep it to himself as any divorce attorney would inform you.

Never inform you partner if you plan to divorce. to give you an advantage. ruthless but you have to protect your self.

talk about "temporary" separation but dont invoke the word "divorce".

thats enough for her to run to attorney's and accountants and start a chain reaction. lol


----------



## Pluto2

Well if we're all going to wax poetic on our theories...

I think affairs happen because the cheating spouse has a sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy for others. They deserve to feel the thrill of the illicit F and they don't care that it hurts their spouse, their children or others.

It is a choice. No one forces them, no one drives them to it. It wasn't an accident. She didn't trip on a rug and land on another man's [email protected] She planned, schemed and lied-for years. Lots of people in this world have problems and never end up in a hot tub with someone who wasn't their spouse.
I believe you did not cause the affair.


----------



## Sammy64

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hurting - here's some very important information. I blocked JLD from my feed - this is a menu choice - after she gave horrendous advice on two other threads and caused irreparable damage to the BS. Her views seen to be that the H is always emotionally responsible for the W and therefore any marital issues are the H's to solve. She has posted s great deal about how the BS is to blame for the selfish actions of the WS. Because she and her husband have no experience with infidelity in marriage she knows nothing of the pain and betrayal that results, and the complete responsibility that belongs to the WS to repair and try to rebuild trust. You should not take any responsibility for this - it is your WS's responsibility to earn your trust through complete transparency. Even then she may not fully re-earn it.
> 
> JLD's posts raise the ire of people who have experienced what you have. Take what you want from her thoughts but he aware of this history.


Thats why i have advised him to go read gridcom's thread.. He will/Would see the damage someone has caused, the pain and hurt that was left behind because of Someones agenda.. YES, i also have that poster blocked so i dont see the trash (IMO]) that is being passed out.. but every now and then i do get to see the quoted trash (IMO), kind of puts a smile on my face to see " This message is hidden because XXX is on your ignore list "


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> entertaining the idea of a divorce this early?
> barely a month the focus it to heal.
> 
> In any situation never entertain the idea of getting a divorce.
> 
> If you do plan to divorce i suggest that he keep it to himself as any divorce attorney would inform you.


He indicated that if the poly says she is not telling the truth, he will not reconcile. 

If that is the case, I think it would be wise for both of them to know that and make a plan. If she knows she cannot pass, she could tell him now and save him the money. 

If divorce is a serious possibility in his mind, then thinking it through would be wise. There will be consequences for both of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

> they don't care that it hurts their spouse, their children or others.


Sometimes it has nothing to with whether they care about the pain it will cause their spouse or children.

Some spouses are either so selfish or so far detached that their spouse or family never enter into the equation.

It is like they are two different people. Wife/mother at home and single/adulterer when on their own.

That is how they compartmentalize the affair. It is how they alleviate their guilt. They do not feel any pain, anger, fear or regret until the day the affair comes to light....


----------



## jld

Sammy64 said:


> Thats why i have advised him to go read gridcom's thread.. He will/Would see the damage someone has caused, the pain and hurt that was left behind because of Someones agenda.. YES, i also have that poster blocked so i dont see the trash (IMO]) that is being passed out.. but every now and then i do get to see the quoted trash (IMO), kind of puts a smile on my face to see " This message is hidden because XXX is on your ignore list "


Grid's wife was not interested in reconciliation. It was a harder case.

This OP's wife is much more compliant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> No fear and defensiveness in that post.
> 
> OP, my belief is that affairs happen for a reason. You have to find out the reason so that you can prevent future affairs. It usually takes both people working together to prevent another affair. Leaving it all up to the cheater is risky.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right about one thing here. 

The underlying causes and conditions for her affair are still true. So she's still ripe for an affair. She thought she was going to get divorced anyway, so she ****ed another man. 

Right now, she thinks she's going to get divorced anyway...

Add to that the fact that her family knew about it, and there's a family history of infidelity...

One would (and should) rationally conclude that she's a good liar, is still lying now, and there's far more to lie about than you probably will ever know. 

Hell, she probably learned how to turn on the water works and look remorseful from her mom - while repeating the pattern. 

Poly isn't going to help, I'm afraid. 

I think you already know what you need to do here, man. I'm so sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> He indicated that if the poly says she is not telling the truth, he will not reconcile.
> 
> If that is the case, I think it would be wise for both of them to know that and make a plan. If she knows she cannot pass, she could tell him now and save him the money.
> 
> If divorce is a serious possibility in his mind, then thinking it through would be wise. There will be consequences for both of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes have him think it through but he should not communicate the divorce idea yet to the cheating partner.
As any attorney would advise. Since that can easily snowball into something bigger.
If she does fail the lie detector test and plans to divorce. He should not inform the WW till the WW is served.

Besides its only been a month,
I suggest the OP focus in healing for now.
Things can change in time.


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> Yes have him think it through but he should not communicate the divorce idea yet to the cheating partner.
> 
> As any attorney would advise. Since that can easily snowball into something bigger.
> 
> If she does fail the lie detector test and plans to divorce. He should not inform the WW till the WW is served.


Well, that will cost them more money. I think he said he had to save up just to pay for the polygraph. An amicable divorce would be much cheaper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> You're right about one thing here.
> 
> *The underlying causes and conditions for her affair are still true. *So she's still ripe for an affair. She thought she was going to get divorced anyway, so she ****ed another man.
> 
> Right now, she thinks she's going to get divorced anyway...
> 
> Add to that the fact that her family knew about it, and there's a family history of infidelity...
> 
> One would (and should) rationally conclude that she's a good liar, is still lying now, and there's far more to lie about than you probably will ever know.
> 
> Hell, she probably learned how to turn on the water works and look remorseful from her mom - while repeating the pattern.
> 
> Poly isn't going to help, I'm afraid.
> 
> I think you already know what you need to do here, man. I'm so sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They could turn this around. They both need to be honest and open with each other, and they need to identify and meet each other's needs. 

OP, she needs to feel safe coming to you, otherwise she will keep shutting down. And when someone does offer to listen, she will pour out her heart.

You want to be the person she pours out her heart to. Make that happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

compliant....what a wretched way to describe a woman


----------



## Pluto2

Back to the OP, when are you scheduling the poly?


----------



## Evinrude58

eastsouth2000 said:


> Yes have him think it through but he should not communicate the divorce idea yet to the cheating partner.
> As any attorney would advise. Since that can easily snowball into something bigger.
> *If she does fail the lie detector test* and plans to divorce. He should not inform the WW till the WW is served.
> 
> Besides its only been a month,
> I suggest the OP focus in healing for now.
> Things can change in time.


IF the sun comes up tomorrow, she WILL fail the polygraph.
Yes, I agree he should prepare for divorce and not tell her. I fear the machine may blow up with her just getting near it. I'd be afraid to be in the same room when they hook that thing up.


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> Well, that will cost them more money. I think he said he had to save up just to pay for the polygraph. An amicable divorce would be much cheaper.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regardless its still to early to communicate the idea of divorce to WW. that idea of divorce which would certainly cast doubt on any R.

Its barely been a month,
The focus should be healing.

The OP should understand that it takes time to heal.
One month in should still be in shock and confusion.

Spending more time in counseling would give OP more in sight.
And in time it will give clarity to chose.

This goes back to the initial idea of already planning for divorce and separation this early is ill advised.

Again focus on counseling and healing for now.


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> Regardless its still to early to communicate the idea of divorce to WW. that idea of divorce which would certainly cast doubt on any R.
> 
> Its barely been a month,
> The focus should be healing.
> 
> The OP should understand that it takes time to heal.
> One month in should still be in shock and confusion.
> 
> Spending more time in counseling would give OP more in sight.
> And in time it will give clarity to chose.
> 
> This goes back to the initial idea of already planning for divorce and separation this early is ill advised.
> 
> Again focus on counseling and healing for now.


You think she is not thinking of it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It's simple. She has been looking out for number 1 for a few years now. Lying and cheating all the while living under the same roof.

I'm sure she has good qualities too. She better. It has no bearing.

Now what you have to do is exactly what she's been doing for at least 2 years. Look out for number 1.

DO NOT EVER DISCUSS YOUR OPTIONS WITH HER! 

Regardless of the bad advice you might be receiving (I can only guess due to the miracle blocking function), realize that sharing your thoughts and plans will give an untrustworthy person the ability to continue to take advantage of you and manipulate you.

It's looking out for number one 101 - basic coursework. I realize I have to explicitly say this because you are not a naturally selfish guy. BUT you are dealing with a selfish spouse so you are not playing by the same rules. YOU ARE NOT PLAYING BY THE SAME RULES.

BTW I am not saying your WW is a bad person or that she is missing loving features that you admire and want to believe are her primary characteristics. I AM attacking her character - which is a basic attribute that really only comes into play when the chips are down, we're under stress, we're tempted, etc. Character defects are the most insidious - because they allow otherwise good and decent people to do horrible things to others. YOU must protect YOU from this and not let the good qualities you see let you ignore the character flaws.

I Have never been cheated on so I won't pretend to know what is in your WW's mind or heart. But I am a people watcher and father. I watch actions. I am a good judge of character and I remove toxic people from my life. I believe people can change but most don't and don't want to see themselves clearly. Watch the actions. Then the words. Good luck


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> They could turn this around. They both need to be honest and open with each other, and they need to identify and meet each other's needs.
> 
> OP, she needs to feel safe coming to you, otherwise she will keep shutting down. And when someone does offer to listen, she will pour out her heart.
> 
> You want to be the person she pours out her heart to. Make that happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the OP the Victim is still feeling the pain of this infidelity. The OP is the one searching for safety in this uncertain relationship.

The Wayward if she still wants to pursue this relationship should do the leg work and make herself are more safe partner.

The 180 should be implemented. Instead of the BS pursuing the WS. It should be the WS to pursue the BS.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> It's simple. She has been looking out for number 1 for a few years now. Lying and cheating all the while living under the same roof.
> 
> I'm sure she has good qualities too. She better. It has no bearing.
> 
> Now what you have to do is exactly what she's been doing for at least 2 years. Look out for number 1.
> 
> DO NOT EVER DISCUSS YOUR OPTIONS WITH HER!
> 
> Regardless of the bad advice you might be receiving (I can only guess due to the miracle blocking function), realize that sharing your thoughts and plans will give an untrustworthy person the ability to continue to take advantage of you and manipulate you.
> 
> It's looking out for number one 101 - basic coursework. I realize I have to explicitly say this because you are not a naturally selfish guy. BUT you are dealing with a selfish spouse so you are not playing by the same rules. YOU ARE NOT PLAYING BY THE SAME RULES.
> 
> BTW I am not saying your WW is a bad person or that she is missing loving features that you admire and want to believe are her primary characteristics. I AM attacking her character - which is a basic attribute that really only comes into play when the chips are down, we're under stress, we're tempted, etc. Character defects are the most insidious - because they allow otherwise good and decent people to do horrible things to others. YOU must protect YOU from this and not let the good qualities you see let you ignore the character flaws.
> 
> I Have never been cheated on so I won't pretend to know what is in your WW's mind or heart. But I am a people watcher and father. I watch actions. I am a good judge of character and I remove toxic people from my life. I believe people can change but most don't and don't want to see themselves clearly. Watch the actions. Then the words. Good luck


This advice seems fear-based to me, OP. If you want to reconcile, you are going to have to extend some trust.

I hope she is telling you everything. I hope the poly confirms that. 

She seems sincere to me. I think she felt she could not go you before, and foolishly confided in him. 

Moving forward, she needs to confide in you. If there is an aura of fear and distrust around you, that will not happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> This advice seems fear-based to me, OP. If you want to reconcile, you are going to have to extend some trust.
> 
> I hope she is telling you everything. I hope the poly confirms that.
> 
> She seems sincere to me. I think she felt she could not go you before, and foolishly confided in him.
> 
> Moving forward, she needs to confide in you. If there is an aura of fear and distrust around you, that will not happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree, strongly. Very, very strongly.


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> the OP the Victim is still feeling the pain of this infidelity. The OP is the one searching for safety.
> 
> The Wayward if she still wants to pursue this relationship should do the leg work in make herself are more safe partner.
> 
> The 180 should be implemented. Instead of the BS pursue to the WS. It should be the WS to pursue the BS.


Not every woman has those leadership qualities. I doubt the OP's wife does. 

He said she shuts down instead of expressing herself. A 180 would just shut her down and out even more.

A 180 is a good way to get divorced, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

not again


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> They could turn this around. They both need to be honest and open with each other, and they need to identify and meet each other's needs.
> 
> OP, she needs to feel safe coming to you, otherwise she will keep shutting down. And when someone does offer to listen, she will pour out her heart.
> 
> You want to be the person she pours out her heart to. Make that happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope.

It was over long ago.

She's broken. If she wanted to be fixed, she would have worked on herself before the marriage, or during it. She didn't. And it's not like she came to you and told you about her affair -- which took planning and you know has more to it than you know.

It's not like she's offered a detailed timeline, right?

It's not like she's sworn up and down that this is all there is and is working to prove herself, right? She's not exactly offering information here. You have to ask. 

What she is doing is saying sorry and bringing on the tears. Which means what she is sorry about is that she got caught.

Sorry, OP.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Nope.
> 
> It was over long ago.
> 
> She's broken. If she wanted to be fixed, she would have worked on herself before the marriage, or during it. She didn't. And it's not like she came to you and told you about her affair -- which took planning and you know has more to it than you know.
> 
> It's not like she's offered a detailed timeline, right?
> 
> It's not like she's sworn up and down that this is all there is and is working to prove herself, right? She's not exactly offering information here. You have to ask.
> 
> What she is doing is saying sorry and bringing on the tears. Which means what she is sorry about is that she got caught.
> 
> Sorry, OP.


Not every woman is a leader. She can be sincere without being a leader.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Being honest with your spouse has nothing to do with leadership.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Not every woman is a leader. She can be sincere without being a leader.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone has some leadership qualities. 

Even women.


----------



## Pluto2

ButtPunch said:


> Everyone has some leadership qualities.
> 
> Even women.


How almost feminist of you ButtPunch. :x


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Everyone has some leadership qualities.
> 
> Even women.


Plenty of men are not leaders, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Being honest with your spouse has nothing to do with leadership.


 It takes courage to be honest, especially when you are afraid. I think that is leadership.

In OP's wife, I think it will have to be nurtured.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Ask her if she's cheated in past relationships. 

Or perhaps you already know.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> It takes courage to be honest, especially when you are afraid. I think that is leadership.
> 
> In OP's wife, I think it will have to be nurtured.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pardon me while I go vomit, and leave the thread for a bit.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> How almost feminist of you ButtPunch. :x


Why do you think he is not a feminist? His wife said he put her through school so she could eventually be the main breadwinner.

Expectng your wife to be the main breadwinner sounds like some kind of feminism. Not my kind, but some kind.

OP, I don't know if you have said, but is your wife working? If you divorce, could she support herself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

marduk said:


> Ask her if she's cheated in past relationships.
> 
> Or perhaps you already know.


I believe OP is aware of her mothers cheating past. Does not bode well. You're right - we haven't heard of WW has been explicitly asked this question.


----------



## Hurting71

marduk said:


> Ask her if she's cheated in past relationships.
> 
> Or perhaps you already know.


She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It takes courage to distance yourself from the one you love when you realize they lack the character required to remain a faithful spouse. It takes leadership to set clear boundaries - for YOURSELF - and make them clear in no uncertain terms. It takes character to make a rational, thoughtful, objective decisions to remove toxic people from your life.

If you live by these principals, your WW will clearly see what SHE must do to remain in your life. You lead through this - she follows or is removed from your life.

It will take 6 months to 2 years - maybe much, much more for your WW to demonstrate that she is worthy of being your trusted partner in life. If you love her but she continues to demonstrate she isn't worthy (she definitely is not now worthy) then you can still give her time if you want but the ball remains in her court.

I'm sorry she lacks the basic skills to talk and communicate with you. That is all on her and coddling her will not help her improve herself and her character. Tell her what you need and ask her to step up. Encourage her to seek help to fix her character flaws. But - at the end of the day - she may remain broken and that just may suk.

BTW - the above applies to to your situation. In a more healthy situation, you BOTH would demonstrate your character to each other and earn the right to remain in each other's life. Your WW has a road to travel before she can be on an equal footing with you.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.


You're done.

And I wonder what stories she will be telling about you to justify her cheating in the years to come.

This is the nail in the coffin for me, friend. Both on your marriage, and on your need to expose her far and wide before she gets a shot at re-writing history.

Go dark, lawyer up, cancel the poly. Don't tell her. Do exactly what your lawyer says.


----------



## G.J.

Hurting71 said:


> She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.


.......................

Reading from page 1 what the OP posts only...... with out the filler......its horrific


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> Not every woman has those leadership qualities. I doubt the OP's wife does.
> 
> He said she shuts down instead of expressing herself. A 180 would just shut her down and out even more.
> 
> A 180 is a good way to get divorced, though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the 180 is important to figure out the sincerity the wayward.
it is important to see how much the wayward really wants to stay in the relationship.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hurting71 said:


> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ask her if she's cheated in past relationships.
> 
> Or perhaps you already know.
> 
> 
> 
> She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.
Click to expand...

Oh, sorry. Yep that now seems like key information. You could have been the OM.

She may believe it is better to swing from branch to branch than risk the hard work of resolving marital issues or divorcing BEFORE swinging to the next branch.

That royally sux. She may never be "whole" enough - without someone else to support her and provide esteem - to be a good partner. Ouch 

(BTW are you positive he was abusive? Just a thought... not that it matters)


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> the 180 is important to figure out the sincerity the wayward.
> it is important to see how much the wayward really wants to stay in the relationship.


Again, not everyone is a leader. Some people would just accept the distance and be too discouraged to try.

But with some encouragement and nurturing, things might be different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Hurting71 said:


> She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.


So you were technically the Other Man?

I understand she was not married, but it sounds like she was not really available, either.

You realize you took a risk, without putting any safety precautions in place?

This time, or next, as you like, put safety precautions in place: transparency, for starters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> She still has to be open and honest with him, forever. I don't see how she is being absolved of anything.
> 
> If I were you, OP, I would be focusing on the Why starting right now. That is the fast track to a successful reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no fast track to a successful reconciliation.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

bfree said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> She still has to be open and honest with him, forever. I don't see how she is being absolved of anything.
> 
> If I were you, OP, I would be focusing on the Why starting right now. That is the fast track to a successful reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> There is no fast track to a successful reconciliation.
Click to expand...

JLD - how fast was your R after to cheated on Doug?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> There is no fast track to a successful reconciliation.


I think some tracks are faster than others.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> JLD - how fast was your R after to cheated on Doug?


I have not cheated on him. He has not cheated on me, either.


----------



## sparrow555

jld said:


> She was probably scared[/FONT]. It takes courage to tell the truth.
> 
> I take it you have not asked her why she cheated?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





jld said:


> This info is very good. It is something you can work with to make a successful reconciliation.
> 
> You know that reconciliation takes two. You both need to be as honest as possible with each other. She needs to feel safe and comfortable doing that. Has she said why she did not feel safe doing that with you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_









jld said:


> I asked because to reconcile you are both going to have to address the conditions that were present before her affair. She needs to be completely open and honest with you. That will prevent the sneaking that allowed the affair to happen and go unconfessed.
> 
> You can help her be honest by making it safe for her to come to you. Being calm and understanding when she comes to you will make her more comfortable in doing so.
> 
> And you are not obliged to reconcile. Divorce is always an option, for both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_






jld said:


> She probably felt bad about what she had done, ]but did not feel safe confessing. She was in over her head and was not strong enough to get out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

A divorce may be the best thing for her, too, sparrow, if he cannot help her. 

I really doubt she can help *him.* Certainly not right now. She is too weak.


----------



## sparrow555

jld, your repeated use of victim language can probably classify you as a misogynist.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Why do you think he is not a feminist? His wife said he put her through school so she could eventually be the main breadwinner.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More like wishful thinking on my part.

As my goal of the good life (not working) never materialized. 
I had dreams of coaching my kids which I do anyway.

I own an engineering company so I did pretty ok despite my feminist views.

I have always been the financial backbone of my family.

When I lost work my wife was there. When my wife derailed, I
was there. 

Money is not an issue at my house and until recently my wife hasn't steadily worked in 3 years. 

So you can take your dig at my manhood and shove it.


----------



## jld

sparrow555 said:


> jld, your repeated use of victim language can probably classify you as a misogynist.


I disagree.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> More like wishful thinking on my part.
> 
> As my goal of the good life (not working) never materialized.
> I had dreams of coaching my kids which I do anyway.
> 
> I own an engineering company so I did pretty ok despite my feminist views.
> 
> I have always been the financial backbone of my family.
> 
> When I lost work my wife was there. When my wife derailed, I
> was there.
> 
> Money is not an issue at my house and until recently my wife hasn't steadily worked in 3 years.
> 
> So you can take your dig at my manhood and shove it.


Why is it a dig at your manhood? Plenty of women are the main breadwinners in their family and the couples are very happy with it.

Like your wife and I agreed the other day, it is whatever works for each couple. 

And I think you should be very proud of owning your own company. That is quite an accomplishment.


----------



## eastsouth2000

jld said:


> A divorce may be the best thing for her, too, sparrow, if he cannot help her.
> 
> I really doubt she can help *him.* Certainly not right now. She is too weak.


Thats why the process takes time. both have to gather there strength then show there resolve.

The BS is there to either accept or reject but not to push the R.
pushing R that is a one way road. intimacy and communication is a two way road.

if she is weak now and tomorrow and the day after that.
should the next storm come into this relationship she would fall again?
then it would have been better to have left.

again for now harsh decision should not be made.
let time pass and heal individually then come to the table.


----------



## jld

eastsouth2000 said:


> Thats why the process takes time. both have to gather there strength then show there resolve.
> 
> The BS is there to either accept or reject but not to push the R.
> pushing R that is a one way road. intimacy and communication is a two way road.
> 
> if she is weak now and tomorrow and the day after that.
> should the next storm come into this relationship she would fall again?
> then it would have been better to have left.
> 
> again for now harsh decision should not be made.
> let time pass and heal individually then come to the table.


Well, that is not what I would suggest.

To me, you need to get things out on the table as soon as possible. Just put it all out there. And if you are dealing with a conflict avoider, you have to make it safe for them to open up. 

And, realistically, if they cannot open up, despite your sincerest efforts, maybe you have to give up. 

If you can get them to open up, you have to find out why they did it. And you have to see if you can meet the needs the affair partner was meeting. That will give you some confidence that you can actively do something to make things better. 

If you don't think anything you do can make a difference, you might want to call off reconciliation right then. They may just need a different kind of person. 

Then you agree to part ways and you each find someone who can better meet your needs. No shame in that. It is a kindness to each of you.

If you do think a change can prevent another affair, though, you then need to say what you need from your partner. Transparency should be number one! Then say what else you need.

If she can do it, great. If she knows she cannot, or you sense this, you probably need to talk divorce. Ultimately both people's needs have to be satisfied enough for them to stay together. Otherwise you risk the marriage continuing, but unhappily, and another affair happening.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think some tracks are faster than others.


No, you're wrong. Very wrong. A successful reconciliation takes time. Time for the betrayed spouse to heal. Time for the wayward spouse to heal. Time to establish/reestablish boundaries. Time to rebuild trust. Time to rekindle romantic love. Time to deconstruct the affair. Time to deconstruct the marriage. Rushing any or all of this leads to a failed reconciliation and a failed marriage. With all due respect JLD, this is where you and Dug have absolutely no comprehension of what it takes to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. It's painful and painstaking work and not for the faint of heart. If the betrayed spouse is too weak or if the wayward spouse is too weak, regardless of which partner or gender they are, the process will fail.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Well, that is not what I would suggest.
> 
> To me, you need to get things out on the table as soon as possible. Just put it all out there. And if you are dealing with a conflict avoider, you have to make it safe for them to open up.
> 
> And, realistically, if they cannot open up, despite your sincerest efforts, maybe you have to give up.
> 
> If you can get them to open up, you have to find out why they did it. And you have to see if you can meet the needs the affair partner was meeting. That will give you some confidence that you can actively do something to make things better.
> 
> If you don't think anything you do can make a difference, you might want to call off reconciliation right then. They may just need a different kind of person.
> 
> Then you agree to part ways and you each find someone who can better meet your needs. No shame in that. It is a kindness to each of you.
> 
> If you do think a change can prevent another affair, though, you then need to say what you need from your partner. Transparency should be number one! Then say what else you need.
> 
> If she can do it, great. If she knows she cannot, or you sense this, you probably need to talk divorce. Ultimately both people's needs have to be satisfied enough for them to stay together. Otherwise you risk the marriage continuing, but unhappily, and another affair happening.


I came back, and this is ridiculous.

Affairs aren't "caused" by someone else, they are caused by the choice of WS to sleep with someone else at the expense of others' pain.

And you can't "prevent" an affair because adults have independent minds and are not controlled like dogs.

OP you did not cause the affair.


----------



## ButtPunch

OP 

You really need to read Gridcoms thread. 

This is following the same pattern.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> No, you're wrong. Very wrong. A successful reconciliation takes time. Time for the betrayed spouse to heal. Time for the wayward spouse to heal. Time to establish/reestablish boundaries. Time to rebuild trust. Time to rekindle romantic love. Time to deconstruct the affair. Time to deconstruct the marriage. Rushing any or all of this leads to a failed reconciliation and a failed marriage. With all due respect JLD, this is where you and Dug have absolutely no comprehension of what it takes to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. It's painful and painstaking work and not for the faint of heart. If the betrayed spouse is too weak or if the wayward spouse is too weak, regardless of which partner or gender they are, the process will fail.


I am sure it does take time. And it surely takes much strength on both sides.

I think openness and honesty and an open-hearted talk about needs can help it along.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## Sammy64

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> You really need to read Gridcoms thread.
> 
> This is following the same pattern.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
It is starting to go in the same direction gridcoms did ...


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> I came back, and this is ridiculous.
> 
> Affairs aren't "caused" by someone else, they are caused by the choice of WS to sleep with someone else at the expense of others' pain.
> 
> And you can't "prevent" an affair because adults have independent minds and are not controlled like dogs.
> 
> OP you did not cause the affair.


OP, you will have to decide what you think is best for you. 

To me, both sides have to look at their own hand in their marital troubles, the troubles that made at least one partner vulnerable to an affair. Otherwise, the betrayed will feel forever at the mercy of their wayward spouse, and at risk of another betrayal.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

OP it might help everyone if you would state if you intend to follow JLD's advice.

If so, we know it will be like Gridcom's thread and many of us will back out while you work through her plan (which many believe involves months of humiliation and accepting blame and personally taking responsibility for the affair on your part).

If not, then it tells everyone they don't need to respond to everything JLD says, trying to undo her advice based on their experiences.

I personally have no objection to everyone voicing an opinion, but when you have one voice with no experience arguing with many voices if experience, it drags things down, gets everyone riled up, extends the post and doesn't help the OP.

Of course you could chose option 3 - ignore this too and let the lively discussion continue.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> OP it might help everyone if you would state if you intend to follow JLD's advice.
> 
> If so, we know it will be like Gridcom's thread and many of us will back out while you work through her plan (which many believe involves months of humiliation and accepting blame and personally taking responsibility for the affair on your part).
> 
> If not, then it tells everyone they don't need to respond to everything JLD says, trying to undo her advice based on their experiences.
> 
> I personally have no objection to everyone voicing an opinion, but when you have one voice with no experience arguing with many voices if experience, it drags things down, gets everyone riled up, extends the post and doesn't help the OP.
> 
> Of course you could chose option 3 - ignore this too and let the lively discussion continue.


So how do you qualify to participate in a thread? 

Is not having experienced marital infidelity a sign that you might know how to avoid it? 

No one is obligated to respond to anyone, btw. All posts are at will.

OP, if you would like me to leave your thread, please just let me know. I do think your spouse is sincerely remorseful. If she could undo the past, I am sure she would. 

Whatever happens reconciliation-wise, I hope that will comfort you.


----------



## Hurting71

TheTruthHurts said:


> OP it might help everyone if you would state if you intend to follow JLD's advice.
> 
> If so, we know it will be like Gridcom's thread and many of us will back out while you work through her plan (which many believe involves months of humiliation and accepting blame and personally taking responsibility for the affair on your part).
> 
> If not, then it tells everyone they don't need to respond to everything JLD says, trying to undo her advice based on their experiences.
> 
> I personally have no objection to everyone voicing an opinion, but when you have one voice with no experience arguing with many voices if experience, it drags things down, gets everyone riled up, extends the post and doesn't help the OP.
> 
> Of course you could chose option 3 - ignore this too and let the lively discussion continue.


I'm reading all of it while trying to get some work done at the same time while also thinking about what has happened in my life. I want all of it, all of what you all have to offer me. Ultimately 's my decision on what do. I think I can take bits of all of the advice and try and make my marriage work.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sounds prudent. Expect a bit of excited disagreement. I guess that's a tiny bit of drama in the overall perspective of your life right now.


----------



## Sammy64

Just read this over on MovingFrwrd Thread..
"jld - I've followed your discussion with azteca as well. There are a lot of points brought up, and it was a very good discussion to follow. I know you stated that you've never experienced an affair, and I truly hope you never do. My only thought is that because you haven't experienced it, you don't know how you would truly respond if faced with the situation. I have said in the past that I would leave my spouse in a heartbeat if they had an affair. When I was in the muck and sh*t that has been this past year, I didn't follow that previous thought, and that was very surprising to me. " 

Should put a lot into perspective...

Again " This message is hidden because XXX is on your ignore list. "


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I am sure it does take time. And it surely takes much strength on both sides.
> 
> I think openness and honesty and an open-hearted talk about needs can help it along.
> 
> We may just have to agree to disagree on this.


While I agree with you on the openness and honesty what you fail to comprehend is that even if the (former?) cheater is being open and honest the betrayed spouse is (rightfully) likely not going to believe what they say and is going to harbor enough distrust to panic at the slightest deviation of the norm. If she tells the OP that she only had sex with the OM once he isn't going to believe her. If the OP's wife shows him her phone and it is clear of all texts he is still going to try to figure out how she deleted the texts without him knowing. This is why he is insisting on a polygraph in the first place. You really cannot possibly understand the varying levels and breadth of emotional angst that those of us that have dealt with infidelity (both betrayed and wayward) have felt and continue to feel. Frankly your advice is much more suited to cases where the couple has already committed to the reconciliation process and have somewhat already passed through the raw emotions present in the first 6 months - 1 year. Maybe you should consider gravitating more toward the Reconciliation section of TAM?


----------



## bfree

OP, I do have a thought that I'd like to share. I've always maintained that if I were to need a polygraph in order to save my marriage then my marriage probably isn't worth saving. However, I understand your need for confirmation given all that has transpired. What do you believe would happen if you approached your wife with something like this?

I know we've discussed your affair and you maintain that you have been completely honest with me but I simply do not believe you. Things just don't add up for me. So I'm planning to have you take a polygraph as we discussed. But my thoughts about it are not positive. My feeling is that if I have to insist on a polygraph then maybe we should just end the marriage now. In order to try to restore the trust and love we once shared we need to be completely honest and open with each other. If it takes a polygraph test to do that then what is our marriage really worth. And once I make the appointment I'll insist that you follow through with the test. And whether you pass or fail I'm not sure our marriage will survive the stress. I do think you are remorseful. I do think you and I could heal from this. But not if there is any truth unspoken. So before I make the appointment I'm going to ask you one last time for complete and total honesty. This is the time to come clean about the extent of this affair and if there have been any others. We need to wipe the slate clean in order to build a new and bright future for ourselves.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think once a person of low character feels the high of ego stroking from another member of the opposite sex who is attractive to them, they either accept the flirting/ego boosting and decide to stick around for more, or accept the flirting and pursue more. Either way, they are making the choice to accept the flirtatious gestures from another person, rather than staying the honorable route of being true to their spouse. A spouse who is causing them pain may make it easier, but they know what they're doing is wrong, and DON'T CARE. Once the Emotional affair partner knows they're "in", they start dissecting the terrible sounding incidents that the wayward spouse tells them. They are then able to worm their way into the person's personal life, eating away at any further scruples they have about cheating. The affair partner destroys all of the wayward spouse's positive views of their spouse, which may already be weakened, and the wayward wants that anyway so they don't have to feel as guilty about what they know they are about to do.

This cheating is all about the high that the wayward feels, and about the reinforcement of the negative views the wayward has for their spouse. It has nothing to do with the TRUTH of what kind of spouse they really have. It has everything to do with the fact that they've allowed themselves to distort the truth, and gotten help from the affair partner to warp the truth to the breaking point. 

Nobody has a perfect spouse. They all do things that can be twisted and misconstrued to make the imperfect spouse seem like a monster. Cheaters are experts at twisting the past to meet their need to continue cheating without guilt.

What the OP and others who have been cheated on need to decide is this:

Now that I know my spouse is cheating, do I really think I can have a marriage with them that could withstand any amount of unhappy times or trouble, even if they've stopped cheating? Or, do I know in my heart that they will always do what they did when they cheated--- looking for fault in me to make excuses to divorce or cheat, vs. looking for ways to make the marriage better?

I think some advice makes it even easier for a cheater to guilt-trip the faithful spouse, harder for the faithful spouse to accept the truth, and provides a crutch for the cheater to justify their evil deeds. This keeps the betrayed spouse hopeful and guilt-ridden. Two things that make life in the hell of limbo last even longer.

Betrayed spouses be warned: Most cheaters have made up their minds before they cheated that you weren't worth staying faithful to, and didn't give a f*** if they got caught. Only when they find out that life may not be so darned easy without their spouse, do they whine and cry and feign a desire for reconciliation. When they figure out an exit strategy that includes taking their spouses money in alimony, assets, or child support, they usually fly the coop anyway. 
WHY? Because they're selfish, self- centered, low character types that are out for themselves first and foremost.

Rant over.


----------



## Marduk

I've been trying to find one of the posts from a former wayward wife here that talked about her perspective when she repeatedly cheated on her husband.

If I remember right, it actually ended up with her getting busted in a hot tub, too. It was quite straightforward and heartfelt and open, and I've never forgotten it. Except now I can't find it and I think it might be able to offer the perspective that his wife may have.
@LosingHim, remember this one?


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## TheTruthHurts

Of the few WS I have read on TAM, one answer stands out. When asked the "why" question - repeatedly - by the BS of TAM, she answered honestly. And the truth was a real kick in the nuts - she said I simply didn't think of him (BS) at that time.

So despite all the angst and pain and suffering and NEEDING to understand, the truth might simply be that when your WW saw the OM, then decided to get in the tub and "just kiss" - you - OP - simply might not have existed. And when she was planning the flight, it was just him and her - you did not exist. And when he arrived and she got dressed in something sexy, her mind was only in him and you didn't exist. And when he got in the car and made a nasty comment about what was to come.... well you get the idea.

I hate to even spell this out because it is so twisted and sad. But it might be that her brain simply refocused from you to the OM and stayed locked there.

It makes sense to me - considering some WS are actually nice people IRL. But it doesn't make it any easier to accept. And the bigger question is - what would prevent it from happening again?

I'd love to see this work out for you but I just don't understand how anyone gets past that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'd love to see this work out for you but I just don't understand how anyone gets past that.


Honestly? After posting here and listening to stories, I think they accept it, but never get past it,


----------



## Be smart

So I just read seven chapters and nothing new. 

Saw some good words from tam members and put "like" on them but saw some really bad.

OP is still at the same place. You know my friend it is 2016 not 2012 anymore,sorry.

When I read stories like yours OP I try and put myself in your position to see what would I do.

First of all I would never let my son near this "grandmother". She knew about her daughters Affair and never said a word. She was looking you in the eyes with your son on her knee and still not telling you anything.

She suported her Affair because she didnt see you like a good man for her daughter so she kept lying to you about her visit and push them together. Bill was her old friend/boyfriend so she saw in him something that she will never see in you.

Then there is other thing. Bill was good friend with her brother,your brother in law. Both of them spend time with her and then your brother in law left her alone. Do you know why ? In your gut you know your answer. Please dont tell me you go for a drink with him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You never find the truth from your wife. Like I said before it was from facebook and Bill fiance. That was back in 2012. Maybe you should contact this really nice lady and see if she was for a dinner,AFTER Divorce.

BE HONEST with yourself and ask yourself a question. What did my wife do for me from 2012 to now ??? 

Your wife tells you NOW that she was not happy with marriage and thought you would divorce. So her answer and solution to all of yours problems are to cheat on you and sleep with another man. Great wife and great best friend. 

She fond a babysiter for your son when Bill was in town. She went to visit him because she knew her mother was going to back her up. Where were you ? Watching after your son ccc.

Go and talk with your lawyer. Dont let anyone know about your plans. Let it be a suprise for your wife.


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## workindad

Hurting71 said:


> She has. She was dating/on the outs with a previous boyfriend (He beat her) when we met. I have to say that I always wondered that if she did it to him without "Officially" breaking it off would she do it to me as well. didn't really dwell on it, but yes, from time to time during rough times in our marriage I did wonder.


OP given that your wife is a proven and skilled liar- how sure are about the abuse part? Justification, history rewriting, and flat out bold faced lying are all standard cheater script. 

I am not against R. 

Just trying to relay to you that from my perspective, the odds that your wife is taking responsibility and being completely honest with you at the moment are slim to none.

Your wife said your marriage was at a low point and she thought you were getting divorced anyway. So instead of discussing it with you, she does so with POSOM and goes and hooks up with him for a carefully planned multi day [email protected] while you are out of town.

Since she has to realize that the marriage might be over once again, she has basically told you (and herself) that it is OK for her to bang some other dude right now.

To recap- the other BF she cheated on allegedly beat her, so cheating on him was OK, your marriage was at a low point so cheating on you was OK. 

Note- all relationships have high points and low points if they last long enough. I guess you will have to accept that she'll be boning some other dude the next time you encounter a low point with her. 

I do not mean to imply that a successful R is not possible. I would just be absolutely stunned if she really was being accountable and honest with you right now.

Did you have other low points in your marriage? If yes, who was she banging on the side during those times?

Good Luck
WD


----------



## Lots to Learn

Evinrude58 said:


> I think once a person of low character feels the high of ego stroking from another member of the opposite sex who is attractive to them, they either accept the flirting/ego boosting and decide to stick around for more, or accept the flirting and pursue more. Either way, they are making the choice to accept the flirtatious gestures from another person, rather than staying the honorable route of being true to their spouse. A spouse who is causing them pain may make it easier, but they know what they're doing is wrong, and DON'T CARE. Once the Emotional affair partner knows they're "in", they start dissecting the terrible sounding incidents that the wayward spouse tells them. They are then able to worm their way into the person's personal life, eating away at any further scruples they have about cheating. The affair partner destroys all of the wayward spouse's positive views of their spouse, which may already be weakened, and the wayward wants that anyway so they don't have to feel as guilty about what they know they are about to do.
> 
> This cheating is all about the high that the wayward feels, and about the reinforcement of the negative views the wayward has for their spouse. It has nothing to do with the TRUTH of what kind of spouse they really have. It has everything to do with the fact that they've allowed themselves to distort the truth, and gotten help from the affair partner to warp the truth to the breaking point.
> 
> Nobody has a perfect spouse. They all do things that can be twisted and misconstrued to make the imperfect spouse seem like a monster. Cheaters are experts at twisting the past to meet their need to continue cheating without guilt.
> 
> What the OP and others who have been cheated on need to decide is this:
> 
> Now that I know my spouse is cheating, do I really think I can have a marriage with them that could withstand any amount of unhappy times or trouble, even if they've stopped cheating? Or, do I know in my heart that they will always do what they did when they cheated--- looking for fault in me to make excuses to divorce or cheat, vs. looking for ways to make the marriage better?
> 
> I think some advice makes it even easier for a cheater to guilt-trip the faithful spouse, harder for the faithful spouse to accept the truth, and provides a crutch for the cheater to justify their evil deeds. This keeps the betrayed spouse hopeful and guilt-ridden. Two things that make life in the hell of limbo last even longer.
> 
> Betrayed spouses be warned: Most cheaters have made up their minds before they cheated that you weren't worth staying faithful to, and didn't give a f*** if they got caught. Only when they find out that life may not be so darned easy without their spouse, do they whine and cry and feign a desire for reconciliation. When they figure out an exit strategy that includes taking their spouses money in alimony, assets, or child support, they usually fly the coop anyway.
> WHY? Because they're selfish, self- centered, low character types that are out for themselves first and foremost.
> 
> Rant over.


Wow! Brilliant. One of the most relevant and succinct post I have ever read on infidelity. My thoughts perfectly described.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Lots to Learn said:


> Wow! Brilliant. One of the most relevant and succinct post I have ever read on infidelity. My thoughts perfectly described.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent stuff from two who have been there.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Who deserves this kind of treatment? No one.

You are getting the mushroom treatment. Never TRUST cheaters. They broke the trust, now they must WORK 1000 TIMES harder to EARN trust again if EVER.

TRICKLE TRUTH


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## Hurting71

So, some of you might kill me for this but last night I handed my wife divorce papers. She was completely shocked and panicked. I have to say that we did have many conversations over the Christmas holiday mostly filled with tears from both of us and some that were serious frank discussions. I did this because, even though we talked a lot, I really wasn't getting the feeling like she was taking what she did seriously enough, like she was moving more towards rug sweeping and hoping it would just go away. It hasn't even come close to going away for me. I still cry while alone in the car and sometimes when I just look at her too long. Holding back the tears here at work just writing this. 

This morning I emailed her and finally asked her for a complete and detailed timeline. I also asked her to tell me if there were other times with Bill or other men before or after Bill. I reminded her that she needs to be completely honest and that if she wasn't that the polygraph will reveal the truth and our marriage would be over. I had my car in the shop this morning for inspection and at lunch she took me down to pick it up. She has been stoned faced since I gave her the papers so I asked her if she was OK. I asked her if there was anything she wanted to discuss, she declined because she didn't want to go back to work all red eyed and teary. I said OK, we'll talk later which she agreed to. I know she hasn't told me everything and I think she is really feeling the pressure. I've brought up the polygraph several times which I know she doesn't like to think about. I'm afraid of what she is going to tell me and what the results will show but I guess I'll just have to prepare myself for that. This is absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to me.


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## Pluto2

Just so I'm clear about your strategy, do you intend to stop the divorce if the poly results show a lack of deception to the questions?

I feel compelled to add that you seem to be a bit all over the place. You hand her divorce papers and then inquire as to her well-being, etc. Are you trying to do the 180 (which really, really helps you detach from a dysfunctional relationship)? Have you had time to figure out what you believe you want.

And have you contacted your MD? You need to be tested for STD,and it is not at all unusual for people to go on meds for depression and anxiety for a short-time when dealing with this level of stress.


----------



## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> So, some of you might kill me for this but last night I handed my wife divorce papers. She was completely shocked and panicked. I have to say that we did have many conversations over the Christmas holiday mostly filled with tears from both of us and some that were serious frank discussions. I did this because, even though we talked a lot, I really wasn't getting the feeling like she was taking what she did seriously enough, like she was moving more towards rug sweeping and hoping it would just go away. It hasn't even come close to going away for me. I still cry while alone in the car and sometimes when I just look at her too long. Holding back the tears here at work just writing this.
> 
> This morning I emailed her and finally asked her for a complete and detailed timeline. I also asked her to tell me if there were other times with Bill or other men before or after Bill. I reminded her that she needs to be completely honest and that if she wasn't that the polygraph will reveal the truth and our marriage would be over. I had my car in the shop this morning for inspection and at lunch she took me down to pick it up. She has been stoned faced since I gave her the papers so I asked her if she was OK. I asked her if there was anything she wanted to discuss, she declined because she didn't want to go back to work all red eyed and teary. I said OK, we'll talk later which she agreed to. I know she hasn't told me everything and I think she is really feeling the pressure. I've brought up the polygraph several times which I know she doesn't like to think about. I'm afraid of what she is going to tell me and what the results will show but I guess I'll just have to prepare myself for that. This is absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to me.


Well done.

This is the beginning, brother. The first step in a very long and painful journey.

And it began with you doing what you know you needed to do.

I know you are in pain. I know you are second guessing yourself. I know you probably have sleepless nights and trouble eating. 

Don't fight all that; accept all that. Work with it. And stay with what you know is your truth, and what you know you need to do.

Do you have a buddy that you can confide in? Man, that guy, when I was going through this... That guy changed my life. I hope you have one.

Keep posting. And be ready; odds are very high that this is the tip of the iceberg and you know it. Her world is caving in, and she will want you to save her from it.


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## TheTruthHurts

Hate to even say this but that was the most charitable act you could have done for your wife.

I believe, based on her upbringing and prior relationship history, that she is very broken. She was destined to stay that way.

You have shown her consequences in a way probably no one ever has. Without consequences, she will continue to screw up her life and relationships forever.

Had you not done this but ended up in divorce anyway, she would have been able to blame you along the way.

This - to her - was immediate, harsh and appropriate consequences. SHE will have to do the introspection if she wants to fix this. She will need IC and boundaries and will have to mature.

I know why it makes you tear up, but realize that you've done her a big favor in this process too.

Now buckle up, the ride will get interesting.


----------



## Evinrude58

I admire you greatly for having the courage to do the right thing. As others have said, this is the right thing for everyone involved, including your wife. And remember, just because you're divorced, doesn't mean you can never repair things. Personally, I don't think you will ever want to. But if rugswept this stuff, you'd be divorced and have no chance to ever have a happy marriage.
It would have eaten at you from now on, and she would have done it again.

I know how hard this is firsthand. Dealing with it, instead of hoping it will go away, is the right and courageous thing to do.
Bravo!


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## Hurting71

Pluto2 said:


> Just so I'm clear about your strategy, do you intend to stop the divorce if the poly results show a lack of deception to the questions?
> 
> I feel compelled to add that you seem to be a bit all over the place. You hand her divorce papers and then inquire as to her well-being, etc. Are you trying to do the 180 (which really, really helps you detach from a dysfunctional relationship)? Have you had time to figure out what you believe you want.
> 
> And have you contacted your MD? You need to be tested for STD,and it is not at all unusual for people to go on meds for depression and anxiety for a short-time when dealing with this level of stress.


If the results show that she was telling me the truth and there is nothing more than I will move forward with the reconciliation but leave the divorce on the table. 

Yes, I am all over the place. I could clearly see that she is wanting to talk and as you know she has trouble communicating. I wanted to give her the opportunity to unload rather than keep it inside. She didn't want to come back to work teary eyed and have to explain to anybody, I understood. I would call it more of a 90°.

No meds, I want to have a clear head.


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## TheTruthHurts

Ya know actions speak louder than words. The 180 is to allow you to detach and protect yourself. Many need that in order to see clearly enough to take action. So I'd say you're doing fine. 90... 180... just keep seeking clarity and finding resolve. It's ok (and desirable) to save a soft spot in your heart - it's not about being mean.


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## eric1

Hurting71 said:


> So, some of you might kill me for this but last night I handed my wife divorce papers. She was completely shocked and panicked. I have to say that we did have many conversations over the Christmas holiday mostly filled with tears from both of us and some that were serious frank discussions. I did this because, even though we talked a lot, I really wasn't getting the feeling like she was taking what she did seriously enough, like she was moving more towards rug sweeping and hoping it would just go away. It hasn't even come close to going away for me. I still cry while alone in the car and sometimes when I just look at her too long. Holding back the tears here at work just writing this.
> 
> This morning I emailed her and finally asked her for a complete and detailed timeline. I also asked her to tell me if there were other times with Bill or other men before or after Bill. I reminded her that she needs to be completely honest and that if she wasn't that the polygraph will reveal the truth and our marriage would be over. I had my car in the shop this morning for inspection and at lunch she took me down to pick it up. She has been stoned faced since I gave her the papers so I asked her if she was OK. I asked her if there was anything she wanted to discuss, she declined because she didn't want to go back to work all red eyed and teary. I said OK, we'll talk later which she agreed to. I know she hasn't told me everything and I think she is really feeling the pressure. I've brought up the polygraph several times which I know she doesn't like to think about. I'm afraid of what she is going to tell me and what the results will show but I guess I'll just have to prepare myself for that. This is absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to me.


You hit a gawd-damned home run. This might be the most perfect post ever posted here. You literally could not have done one breath better than you did.

Why would anyone not like that. You did AWESOME


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> If the results show that she was telling me the truth and there is nothing more than I will move forward with the reconciliation but leave the divorce on the table.
> 
> Yes, I am all over the place. I could clearly see that she is wanting to talk and as you know she has trouble communicating. I wanted to give her the opportunity to unload rather than keep it inside. She didn't want to come back to work teary eyed and have to explain to anybody, I understood. I would call it more of a 90°.
> 
> No meds, I want to have a clear head.


Fair warning man... I think she's regrouping and deciding how much to actually tell you. Or how to balance how much she can tell you with how much you're going to find out.

There's no way the story you've been told so far holds water.

I hope I'm wrong. Dammit, I really hope I'm wrong this time and it was one stupid weekend and all a mistake that she regrets and you can move on.

I just don't think I am. Just be ready for the worst, brother.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> Fair warning man... I think she's regrouping and deciding how much to actually tell you. Or how to balance how much she can tell you with how much you're going to find out.
> 
> There's no way the story you've been told so far holds water.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. Dammit, I really hope I'm wrong this time and it was one stupid weekend and all a mistake that she regrets and you can move on.
> 
> I just don't think I am. Just be ready for the worst, brother.


QFT.

You need to have your bullshyte detector set on high for this conversation. If it sounds even a bit wonky, you peel that onion back until your gut stops talking to you.

Cool, firm, dispassionate. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Kivlor

jld said:


> Not every woman is a leader. She can be sincere without being a leader.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reading your madness is like trying to make sense of a shoggoth!

Choosing to not betray your spouse and your oaths is not leadership. It's *integrity*.

You conflate terms like a 2 year old; but at least the 2 year old has an excuse. Do you want me to purchase and mail you a thesaurus? Would it help you?

OP, listen to Marduk man, I think he's dead on. She's probably not done yet. Stay frosty

ETA: I want to say I think you did the right thing handing her Divorce papers, requesting a full timeline etc. Bravo man, bravo! Stay strong, we're rooting for you


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## Evinrude58

The problem with the polygraph and you saying if it was more than a one time thing---- you and everyone else here KNOWS it wasn't. IT was a lot of screwing. A LOT. 

However, if your wife is remorseful, and really wants to stay married, and you have kids.......

You just have to make the call on whether or not this woman is truly remorseful--- meaning she is sorry and WON'T DO IT AGAIN. Honestly, that's impossible to tell. But I think one can tell if she makes a long-term effort to fix the marriage by complete transparency and showing some humility, I don't think it's impossible to get over. Then again, it's not me that would be reconciling with this woman.

I am positive you did the right thing with papers.


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## Lots to Learn

Thinking about you man!

It's such a **** hand you have been dealt. Don't bury that emotion, let it run.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

Remember all that the hot tub with Bill has been confirmed. Also the FB message from Bill's, then fiance, to Hurting asking him if he was at home when Bill flew in for the weekend visit. The fiance knew something was fishy and it was - Hurting had gone fishing for the weekend leaving Bill and his wife alone for round 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever number this turns out to be.

So Hot Tub and Fishing Weekend confirmed. How many more times or how many more men???????

I see what amounts to a polygraph parking lot confession coming.

Hurting - if she does confess to more, and you still want R, you should still go through with the polygraph because she probably will not give you everything even now.

If her admissions tonight finally make up your mind to D - then forget the polygraph and save your money.


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## Truthseeker1

She has lied and deceived you until now - do you really think most cheaters won't continue to withhold the full truth if they know they can and possibly save their situation? Lets start out with the fact your wife set up a time to cheat with this guy - once twice - who knows - it was no spur of the moment thing it was premeditated cheating - now she is in CYA mode. Her wanting to rug sweep is a red flag - telling you she does not care about you or your healing all she cares about is saving her own behind. Her tears and moaning are about her not you - its more look at me - see how much I'm suffering....she hasn't had time to be sorry or remorseful she is too busy trying to save herself. And what you see in her eyes is not necessarily remorse but the "deer in the headlights" look - again its about her not you. 

Think long and hard about what you want, be ruthless in getting as many facts as you can and make sure she knows there is a price ot pay for being a cheater. Listen to the folks here at TAM - they know what they are talking about. The cheaters may be different but the cheater script is the same.


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## straightshooter

Can't understand why anyone would think you are doing anything wrong.

You can stop divorce proceedings anytime you want to. Her not wanting to go back to work tears eyed means you have a bunch more TT headed your way. 

If she is telling the truth, she should be BEGGING you to take her to a polygraph examiner ASAP. My guess is you have just found out only the tip of the iceberg.

DO THE POLYGRAPH no matter what she tells you. Do not fall for any more telling you just enough to try to get you to call it or the divorce off. It is very common tactic to try to dodge the bullet by admitting to a little more.

Lastly, question the polygraph examiner on their experience with infidelity. A competent examiner should be able to help you structure the four or five question in a manner to find out what you want to. And remember the old saying that you get what you pay for. Your marital future could be riding on the results here. Do not look for any "bargains".


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## Hurting71

TDSC60 said:


> Remember all that the hot tub with Bill has been confirmed. Also the FB message from Bill's, then fiance, to Hurting asking him if he was at home when Bill flew in for the weekend visit. The fiance knew something was fishy and it was - Hurting had gone fishing for the weekend leaving Bill and his wife alone for round 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever number this turns out to be.
> 
> So Hot Tub and Fishing Weekend confirmed. How many more times or how many more mean???????
> 
> I see what amounts to a polygraph parking lot confession coming.
> 
> Hurting - if she does confess to more, and you still want R, you should still go through with the polygraph because she probably will not give you everything even now.
> 
> If her admissions tonight finally make up your mind to D - then forget the polygraph and save your money.


The polygraph is happening no matter what. Just gonna take a few weeks, I sunk $600.00 into my truck today and her car is up for inspection by the end of the month and will probably need a few things, and well, you know, Christmas. She's pretty shaken up by the divorce papers, pretty much unstable. She could just unload everything tonight or in the timeline I asked for but I'll be the judge of that.


----------



## bfree

Hurting, I think you did a very good thing today. Good for you, good for your marriage, and good for your wife. You established a time table. You instituted a deadline. This will prevent rugsweeping. This one action communicated to your wife that you are serious. She cannot stick her head in the sand and play ostrich. The thing that surprises me most is that she was concerned about going back to work with red teary eyes. If I were served with divorce papers I doubt I'd be able to work. I'd have red eyes whether I wanted to or not. You alluded to the fact that she wasn't taking this seriously enough. I believe I agree with you and this makes me wonder if her remorseful showing was more of a defensive strategy designed to preserve the status quo rather than a demonstration of true remorse.


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## Truthseeker1

bfree said:


> Hurting, I think you did a very good thing today. Good for you, good for your marriage, and good for your wife. You established a time table. You instituted a deadline. This will prevent rugsweeping. This one action communicated to your wife that you are serious. She cannot stick her head in the sand and play ostrich. The thing that surprises me most is that she was concerned about going back to work with red teary eyes. If I were served with divorce papers I doubt I'd be able to work. I'd have red eyes whether I wanted to or not. You alluded to the fact that she wasn't taking this seriously enough. I believe I agree with you and *this makes me wonder if her remorseful showing was more of a defensive strategy designed to preserve the status quo rather than a demonstration of true remorse.*


BINGO! it is still all about her - and nothing to do with Hurting at all - she wants to save her situation - you can not truly R under these circumstances can you?


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> The polygraph is happening no matter what. Just gonna take a few weeks, I sunk $600.00 into my truck today and her car is up for inspection by the end of the month and will probably need a few things, and well, you know, Christmas. She's pretty shaken up by the divorce papers, pretty much unstable. She could just unload everything tonight or in the timeline I asked for but I'll be the judge of that.


Just be ready for anything man.

What's the plan if more comes out? If she refuses to give you the timeline and turns on the waterworks instead? Do you have a buddy to call? Do you have a place to go if you have to?

Eat before you talk. You might not eat again for a while. Stay away from the booze.

Post here when you know more.

I'm rooting for you, buddy.


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## jigga114

Your description of her behavior when she was taking you to your car leads me to believe she is considering telling you more. Whether that more will mean all is unknowable, hence the necessity of the poly. Whatever happens tonight, be prepared for whatever you may hear. Know in advance what boundaries (if any) you do not wish to cross and stick to them. Things can not be unheard. If on the other hand you want to know everything in sordid detail, then pursue that relentlessly tonight, especially if she has decided to tell you more. Opportunities like this do not come everyday, so take advantage of it as best you can. Be sure to let her know after your talk that the poly is still nonnegotiable. Good luck and stay strong.


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## workindad

marduk said:


> Fair warning man... I think she's regrouping and deciding how much to actually tell you. Or how to balance how much she can tell you with how much you're going to find out.
> 
> There's no way the story you've been told so far holds water.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. Dammit, I really hope I'm wrong this time and it was one stupid weekend and all a mistake that she regrets and you can move on.
> 
> I just don't think I am. Just be ready for the worst, brother.




Hate to say it again, but I believe that Marduk is spot on here.

Don't be surprised if she unloads something you had no idea about. Try to control your reaction so she can tell the whole story, if that's possible for her.

Hopefully, she's not digging in and preparing to sling mud at and venom your way. That happened in my case. If she does, press on with the D like there is no tomorrow and keep a VAR with you to protect yourself from false claims of domestic violence. You might not think she would do something that low, but she has already done worse and she slept just fine for the past several years while lying to you about it every single day.

I hope you get the truth, but it would be awfully soon in the process for that. 

Good luck
WD


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## Marduk

Expect from her more of what you've been getting - the tears and the I'm sorrys. And the lies. 

If that doesn't work, expect her to go on the offensive. The switch can be quick and jarring, and can take the form of anger, or accusations, or even threats. 

I know it's hard, but try to be both ready, but firm and compassionate. Hurting her isn't going to help you. 

Be firm. Be clear. Take a time out if you need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

I am proud of you my friend. Finally you decided to do something about your marriage. Its been long,years to be fair. Who knows maybe you can work it out together later on.

You should be careful about her now. She will tell you all the things you want to hear,trust me on this one.

Also this is big problem. She asked to talk to you LATER. You know she is trying to put her story the way it will suit you.

I belive you never asked her who knew about Affair,except mother in law and probably brother in law.

You have now power over your marriage my friend. So be smart and think what do you want from your marriage.


Stay strong


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## G.J.

Hurting71 said:


> The polygraph is happening no matter what. Just gonna take a few weeks, I sunk $600.00 into my truck today and her car is up for inspection by the end of the month and will probably need a few things, and well, you know, Christmas. She's pretty shaken up by the divorce papers, pretty much unstable. She could just unload everything tonight or in the timeline I asked for but I'll be the judge of that.


Be prepared for anything

Take what she says with a pinch of salt to start with and dig into each piece that even in the slightest doesn't flow straight

The more she panics the more mistakes are likely to be made when she talks

Ideally VAR conversation if its ok in your state and play back later looking for any faults (in the U.K.) its ok as long as you don't play it to a 3rd party


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## TDSC60

Hurting71 said:


> The polygraph is happening no matter what. Just gonna take a few weeks, I sunk $600.00 into my truck today and her car is up for inspection by the end of the month and will probably need a few things, and well, you know, Christmas. She's pretty shaken up by the divorce papers, pretty much unstable. She could just unload everything tonight or in the timeline I asked for but I'll be the judge of that.


One more suggestion.

Get a VAR (voice activated digital recorder) and velcro it under the seat of her car. Cheater like to talk to people who support and enable their cheating while they think they are alone in the car.

You could find out she is talking to some "trusted friend" who knows all about what she has done and is discussing with this friend what her next move should be.

Actually get two so you can switch them out. One recording while you listen to the other in privacy.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Divorce papers and pretty much demanding the time line/polygraph in the same day.

Man, talk about hitting with both barrels.

I have to say that I'm mildly surprised and very impressed.

The only thing I wonder about is showing her the D papers before she takes a poly, or has a chance to start TT'ing you... I have to wonder if she'll just clam up now, figuring that you're probably going to D her anyway, so why admit to anything more at this point.

If she only agreed to take a poly for you in verbal form, I'd now try to get it in text, or in email form. Only because if she backs out of the poly, she may start telling everyone that she never agreed with it to begin with...

If you end up emailing, or texting here about this in the future, try to get her to out right state that she agrees to take the test. I know that it doesn't seem like much now, but if she does back out, then start saying she never agreed, at least you'll have proof that she lied right up to the end.

Don't get me wrong, I still hope that she takes it and passes. That her reluctance to give you a time line, or anymore information is only because what she's held back isn't going to make you happy. It may not be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but at this point she may feel that ANYTHING else will push you over the edge on a R attempt.

Just because I always note and even sometimes expect the worst - I'd much rather see things get worked through and out, if both spouse still want to attempt R. Notice, I always say "attempt" R. This is a endeavor that far fewer couples can persevere at then have ever attempted to.


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## Vulcan2013

Hope things went ok, OP. taking a hard line is the way to go. She needs to do the heavy lifting. She can buy or download "Helping Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" which has some advice on how to do that. 

Let her know you are willing to consider R and stop the D, but she needs to meet all your conditions for you to _consider_ R. I emphasize "consider" because you may not be able to R even if she responds perfectly. 

Remember though, it may take time for her to out of the fog and become remorseful.


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## JohnA

Hi hurting.

What did the lawyer advised you about asset division, custody, custody support and alimony? I believe PA is a no fault state but it may take into consideration adultery otherwise. Is that what he advised you? I am sorry I missed it, but when did you see the lawyer and when did you file ? I was under the impression it would take several days after you signed a petition with your lawyer for a court to process it.


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## eastsouth2000

Why give the divorce papers before the Lie Detector Test?
should only do that If you are gonna 100% divorce.

The Purpose of the Lie Detector is to only Intimidate the WW to reveal any secrets.

For me the Result is irrelevant cause of the errors.


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## straightshooter

You just got a bunch of great advice

AND GUESS WHAT?? You now have her attention!!

The problem is she is in DEFENSIVE mode, not TRUTHFUL mode. So like the other have said, you can expect the following
(1) enough tears to float a battleship
(2) enough trickle truth to try to make you totally forget about the polygraph


My bet is that you have just uncovered the tip of the iceberg. I suggest, since she has been so deceitful to you, that you now start to be a bit manipulative, and bluff her into telling you more. I would tell her that whatever else she has to tell you that you would much rather hear it from her. DO NOT TELL HER OR MAKE ANY COMMITTMENTS TO R. 
She will then think if she confesses more that you will give up the polygraph idea. After you get her trickle truth, you then tell her you are NOT believing that is all of it and that the poly is on. 

My guess is your wife is going to ultimately refuse to take the test because she knows she has no chance to pass. That in itsel;f will give you some answers. If she has told you the truth she should be dragging you down there to do it. 

If I were you, I would borrow the money from a relative or friend and do the test so you have some idea what you are dealing with. May not be possible but the longer you put it off the longer she has to start to collect herself and go back to stonewall mode once the shock of the divorce papers wears off

And one more thing. If you really want to find out what is going on quickly, put the VAR in her car. The overwhelming odds are is that she is talking to either Bill or one of her girlfriends about what her next move will be. The girlfriends will tell her to stonewall and deny, especially if they have been encouraging her to begin with. Now that she has divorce papers in her hand, you can take it to the bank she is not being solitary and absorbing this herself.


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## Hurting71

I got nothing last night. I asked her if she started on the timeline and she said no. Honestly though, she WAS swamped with work yesterday so I gotta give her that one. Although I gave her the pass for yesterday I did insist she get it done as soon as possible. I'm not quite sure I'm actually gonna get it though. Time will tell. I asked her if she wanted to talk about what we didn't talk about in the car earlier and she said "there was nothing specific that she had to say" and that "she was just having a bad day". She was a total mess last night (and yesterday, remember, we work together so I do see her), she could barely keep it together and it looked like she was on the verge of tears any time she looked at me. Per my request, she did revise the no contact letter to Bill that she wrote, I will mail that today. 

I have my first appointment with the therapist this Saturday. She made an appointment with a different therapist yesterday but I suggested she go and see the same therapist I'm going to see. I think if we end up making it to counseling together this will be better because we can jump right into it rather than filling in a new therapist on the whole story. She agreed. 

I bought 2 books on Amazon yesterday; "After the Affair" and "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". Have any of you read either these books? How much do you think they will actually help? To be quite honest, I don't think she even has a clue on what to do for me or what I'm actually going through (and neither do I for that matter) so I'm hoping that she gets some good advice from How to Help Your Spouse.

I got the VAR app for my phone in case I want to use it during our conversations. I will not be installing any kind of recording device in her car, for my situation I think that would be a little overboard. She's not vindictive and I believe if we do end up divorcing it will be amicable.


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## farsidejunky

I don't like it.

She is either hiding and hoping for the best, or she is being coached.

Does she have any toxic friends? 

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## Pluto2

At this point, I would be surprised if you get anything more from her other than some form of "what do you want me to say" "there's no point dragging this out" "You know the basics anyway"

Of course she could do what my ex did when I confronted him with printouts of his multiple affairs. "I absolutely am not having an affair" To his credit, he was technically correct-he was having SEVERAL. The devil's in the details.


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## G.J.

Hurting71 said:


> I got the VAR app for my phone in case I want to use it during our conversations.* I will not be installing any kind of recording device in her car, for my situation I think that would be a little overboard.* She's not vindictive and I believe if we do end up divorcing it will be amicable.


:slap:

OVERBOARD !!!!
YOUR WIFE HAS HAD SEX WITH ANOTHER GUY F.G.S.

Oh please reconsider this option it may cut your heartache by months...she's near tears you say and will 
want to talk to some one and as shes with you at work, so easiest place is in the car on the phone

Amount of months guys on this board could have saved if they did a simple thing as a VAR in the car
Especially when she gets upset as that time is paramount for her to open up to someone


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## ButtPunch

Hurting71 said:


> I got nothing last night. I asked her if she started on the timeline and she said no. Honestly though, she WAS swamped with work yesterday so I gotta give her that one. Although I gave her the pass for yesterday I did insist she get it done as soon as possible. I'm not quite sure I'm actually gonna get it though. Time will tell. I asked her if she wanted to talk about what we didn't talk about in the car earlier and she said "there was nothing specific that she had to say" and that "she was just having a bad day". She was a total mess last night (and yesterday, remember, we work together so I do see her), she could barely keep it together and it looked like she was on the verge of tears any time she looked at me. Per my request, she did revise the no contact letter to Bill that she wrote, I will mail that today.
> 
> I have my first appointment with the therapist this Saturday. She made an appointment with a different therapist yesterday but I suggested she go and see the same therapist I'm going to see. I think if we end up making it to counseling together this will be better because we can jump right into it rather than filling in a new therapist on the whole story. She agreed.
> 
> I bought 2 books on Amazon yesterday; "After the Affair" and "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". Have any of you read either these books? How much do you think they will actually help? To be quite honest, I don't think she even has a clue on what to do for me or what I'm actually going through (and neither do I for that matter) so I'm hoping that she gets some good advice from How to Help Your Spouse.
> 
> I got the VAR app for my phone in case I want to use it during our conversations. I will not be installing any kind of recording device in her car, for my situation I think that would be a little overboard. She's not vindictive and I believe if we do end up divorcing it will be amicable.


I think she will call your bluff. The divorce papers shocked her but she can still see she is running the show. You are pushing this R and I think that is the wrong approach. 

Do not force anymore relationship talks. She needs to want to fix this. I am not seeing it. 

Divorce papers and a complete 180 would have been more appropriate. She can sense you are bluffing and I can too.

I know it's hard but please try to be steadfast.


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## Kivlor

Hurting71 said:


> I got nothing last night. I asked her if she started on the timeline and she said no. Honestly though, she WAS swamped with work yesterday so I gotta give her that one. Although I gave her the pass for yesterday I did insist she get it done as soon as possible. I'm not quite sure I'm actually gonna get it though. Time will tell. I asked her if she wanted to talk about what we didn't talk about in the car earlier and she said "there was nothing specific that she had to say" and that "she was just having a bad day". She was a total mess last night (and yesterday, remember, we work together so I do see her), she could barely keep it together and it looked like she was on the verge of tears any time she looked at me. Per my request, she did revise the no contact letter to Bill that she wrote, I will mail that today.
> 
> I have my first appointment with the therapist this Saturday. She made an appointment with a different therapist yesterday but I suggested she go and see the same therapist I'm going to see. I think if we end up making it to counseling together this will be better because we can jump right into it rather than filling in a new therapist on the whole story. She agreed.
> 
> I bought 2 books on Amazon yesterday; "After the Affair" and "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". Have any of you read either these books? How much do you think they will actually help? To be quite honest, I don't think she even has a clue on what to do for me or what I'm actually going through (and neither do I for that matter) so I'm hoping that she gets some good advice from How to Help Your Spouse.
> 
> I got the VAR app for my phone in case I want to use it during our conversations. I will not be installing any kind of recording device in her car, for my situation I think that would be a little overboard. She's not vindictive and I believe if we do end up divorcing it will be amicable.


To get the timeline you need to set a deadline. It can't be open-ended; on her time. This isn't cheater-management, but just from a people-management perspective. 

I do think you're making a mistake pursuing an R right away. I think it's wise to move forward with the D, and make her jump to pursue the R. You're sending the message that she's still in charge, and if she's capable at all in reading social cues, she knows.

I also agree with others about the VAR in her car; but that's your call.

I hope counseling goes well for you, and it's great to hear you're moving forward.


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## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> I think she will call your bluff. The divorce papers shocked her but she can still see she is running the show. You a pushing this R and I think that is the wrong approach.
> 
> Do not force anymore relationship talks. She needs to want to fix this. I am not seeing it.
> 
> Divorce papers and a complete 180 would have been more appropriate. She can sense you are bluffing and I can too.
> 
> I know it's hard but please try to be steadfast.


I agree.

Never...ever...EVER play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

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## Hicks

You got her backed into a conrner. You told her you want the truth and you told her it would be backed up with a poly. You gave her a clear consquence of divorce. She went quiet. What do you think that means?

You need to stop constantly asking her for what you already asked her for. This sets the tone that you are the one responsible / working whereas she should be.


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## Pluto2

If you want to know if she is remorseful and wants to save the marriage, she will do what you have repeatedly requested without another word from you.


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## farsidejunky

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to know if she is remorseful and wants to save the marriage, she will do what you have repeatedly requested without another word from you.


QFT.

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## TDSC60

Hurting71 said:


> I got the VAR app for my phone in case I want to use it during our conversations. I will not be installing any kind of recording device in her car, for my situation I think that would be a little overboard. She's not vindictive and I believe if we do end up divorcing it will be amicable.


Good job with the phone app.

But you misunderstand why putting a VAR in the car has been suggested. It is not so you can use recordings in a divorce. 

Like a polygraph, installing a VAR in the car is a tool for you to get the truth for your piece of mind. And your protection against rug sweeping or demonizing.

She could be talking to a person who enabled the affairs and knows all about what she has done. They could be talking about you and what she should be doing to trick you into believing it is not as bad as it actually is. How she can convince you.

She could be talking about how much she should actually tell you and what she should continue to hide. 

She could be discussing how to trick the polygraph.

The point is that the VAR is a tool for you to get the truth - not to gather evidence to use during a divorce. No one should hear it but you.


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## workindad

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to know if she is remorseful and wants to save the marriage, she will do what you have repeatedly requested without another word from you.


I absolutely agree. If she doesn't do this- then she is not sincere at all and you have nothing to save.


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> I got nothing last night. I asked her if she started on the timeline and she said no. Honestly though, she WAS swamped with work yesterday so I gotta give her that one. Although I gave her the pass for yesterday I did insist she get it done as soon as possible. I'm not quite sure I'm actually gonna get it though. Time will tell. I asked her if she wanted to talk about what we didn't talk about in the car earlier and she said "there was nothing specific that she had to say" and that "she was just having a bad day". She was a total mess last night (and yesterday, remember, we work together so I do see her), she could barely keep it together and it looked like she was on the verge of tears any time she looked at me. Per my request, she did revise the no contact letter to Bill that she wrote, I will mail that today.


She's either stalling or scheming. Perhaps both.

Or she didn't take it seriously.

Please tell me she's at least sleeping in another room, and you're not being a wet blanket for her.

I would stop communicating to her altogether except if she provides the timeline and answers the questions. Except logistics, etc, of course.


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## Marduk

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to know if she is remorseful and wants to save the marriage, she will do what you have repeatedly requested without another word from you.


And it would have been her top priority.


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## TheTruthHurts

Ok hurting - please pause a minute. You need to focus and act strategically.

The D and poly were picture perfect to drive this toxin out of your marriage OR drive to end an unsustainable marriage.

You are losing your strategic advantage right now but it can be corrected.

Your objective should be:

1- get the truth ASAP so you can make a decision about your life

2-STOP her in her tracks from building newer, more solid lies. This is key. Also stop her from pushing rug sweeping by being vague, having moving timelines , etc (the stuff she is actively doing)

3-Identify her toxic support system if it exists. STOP it and remove it from your marriage

The VAR is ONLY, in this case, to accomplish these 3 things. I am always amazed when a VAR is recommended - and my reaction is like yours (come on, that's s bit overboard, isn't it?). THEN there's a day or two lag in posts then the OP writes that they are SHOCKED at what they found. Not always cheating - but who people are talking to about the marriage, etc.

Others have nailed it - you are pushing - she should be pulling.

As a result of your pursuit, #2 above is happening. If you stop - and go cold (not mean) - she won't know what you're thinking. If she gives 2 sh*ts about saving her marriage - or even saving her own skin - she'll have to start to pursue you and pump you for information.

If you both go quiet and she doesn't pursue then leave open web sites about scheduling the poly, etc. make it clear you are moving forward and she better step up the pace to keep up.


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## Hurting71

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok hurting - please pause a minute. You need to focus and act strategically.
> 
> The D and poly were picture perfect to drive this toxin out of your marriage OR drive to end an unsustainable marriage.
> 
> You are losing your strategic advantage right now but it can be corrected.
> 
> Your objective should be:
> 
> 1- get the truth ASAP so you can make a decision about your life
> 
> 2-STOP her in her tracks from building newer, more solid lies. This is key. Also stop her from pushing rug sweeping by being vague, having moving timelines , etc (the stuff she is actively doing)
> 
> 3-Identify her toxic support system if it exists. STOP it and remove it from your marriage
> 
> The VAR is ONLY, in this case, to accomplish these 3 things. I am always amazed when a VAR is recommended - and my reaction is like yours (come on, that's s bit overboard, isn't it?). THEN there's a day or two lag in posts then the OP writes that they are SHOCKED at what they found. Not always cheating - but who people are talking to about the marriage, etc.
> 
> Others have nailed it - you are pushing - she should be pulling.
> 
> As a result of your pursuit, #2 above is happening. If you stop - and go cold (not mean) - she won't know what you're thinking. If she gives 2 sh*ts about saving her marriage - or even saving her own skin - she'll have to start to pursue you and pump you for information.
> 
> If you both go quiet and she doesn't pursue then leave open web sites about scheduling the poly, etc. make it clear you are moving forward and she better step up the pace to keep up.


Been cold all day and plan on continuing. Not mean like you said but just cold more towards the 180° that everyone has suggested. She slept in the guestroom last night and I will suggest the same for tonight and from now on until I think it isn't necessary, if we make it that far.


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## Red Sonja

TDSC60 said:


> She could be talking to a person who enabled the affairs and knows all about what she has done. They could be talking about you and what she should be doing to trick you into believing it is not as bad as it actually is. How she can convince you.
> 
> She could be talking about how much she should actually tell you and what she should continue to hide.
> 
> She could be discussing how to trick the polygraph.
> 
> The point is that the VAR is a tool for you to get the truth - not to gather evidence to use during a divorce. No one should hear it but you.


It wouldn't surprise me if your wife is talking/scheming/getting advice from her mother. After all mom has experience in this matter and her daughter knows it.


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## Be smart

You made a big mistake my friend. 

Why would you give her space after all this years ? You have to demand the truth from her. It is your life and your marriage.

You think it is over the line to put a VAR in her car !!! Come on man,open your eyes. 

Someone is telling her what to say and I belive it is her mother or some friend. 

Spend 20-30 Euros on VAR and you will know half the truth.

She said she is not ready to talk to you and you gave her time. I thought you did that since 2012 .

She didnt even start writing about her Affair.

I told you,you have power over your marriage now and you scrwed it up,by giving her all the tome of world ONCE AGAIN.


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## Evinrude58

I'm disappointed. I thought you had made your mind up. You're still begging for information and she's still telling you to go **** yourself as far as giving it to you.

You've given her divorce papers, but buying books on how to reconcile and still asking her for a "timeline". Geez, it's quite obvious to anyone that you don't want a divorce. For the divorce papers to work any kind of magic, she had to think you WANTED to divorce! Not only that you were going to, but that you WANTED TO.

This woman is not in the least bit remorseful. I know how hard it is, but you have no chance at saving your marriage or at happiness alone until you steel yourself and proceed with divorce. You have to want it, or at the very least convince yourself that it's what you're going to do.

Until then, she has the upper hand on your emotions and is repulsed by the fact that you aren't man enough to boot her cheating arse out the door. Be that man, the man that can! You will then find her either seeing the light, or heading to the door for what she really wanted to start off with. Either way, you are closer to mental peace.

Stop editing no contact letters to Bill with her! Do you have any idea what that makes her think of you? My poor husband is so worried about losing my sorry arse that he is sitting here helping me write a letter to my affair partner! 

Stop it! You're shooting yourself in the foot with a 50 caliber cannon.

Just telling you what you need to hear. You can do it!


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## BetrayedDad

knobcreek said:


> She's likely not out of contact with him, they'll hug on you, tell you how they're "happy this happened, because now we can work on the relationship and it makes her realize how much she loves you, blah blah blah", at the same time she's texting him about their next meetup.


Almost always this. 

You're plan B. They continue to work on plan A in the interim.


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## BetrayedDad

Hurting71 said:


> The hardest thing for me to understand is the fact that she and him planned the whole thing. It wasn't a "I had to much to drink and didn't think about what I was doing" kinda thing. She planned it out and followed through. She could have stopped at any time but she didn't.


This is EXACTLY why you should get a divorce...

The "I got drunk and fvcked up one time but confessed to you immediately" scenario is worth some consideration.

The "I hid this for two years, schemed to fvck him repeatedly and planned to take this to the grave" scenario is grounds for termination.

She stabbed you in the back and you're giving her a hug. She will never respect you. I hope your prepared for the many years of suspicion and resentment that's coming. You're letting your heart make foolish decisions for you. She's not a good woman who made a mistake. You're wife's a POS man straight up. You've got to accept that.

Her "remorse" is an act. She knows how to play you for a chump. I wish I could convince you but I promise it's the truth. You've got to grow a pair.


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## bigfoot

I don't think that you have taken any real steps towards doing anything at all. This just sounds like a bunch of posturing on your part and then telling the forum that you did something. 

You say that you "gave her divorce papers". Unless you actually filed for divorce and had her served, it sounds like all you did was print off some stuff from the internet and give them to her. "Giving her divorce papers" is legally meaningless. Please explain what you meant. Right now, it sound like you just postured a bit.

Secondly, you are asking her to sleep in the guest room. This will continue until when? What is the goal? Seems like posturing.

Thirdly, she has pretty much given you nothing. The same woman who could plan and execute her sex session and then keep it from you for so long suddenly can't give you this timeline you seek? You are basically making her write a no contact letter and then you have to edit it to make it satisfactory for you?! If she was remorseful, she would have written the most vicious, succinct, and devastating FU letter immediately.

Lastly, what is your goal? Maybe you don't have one and that is fine. Still, stop posturing. Even if you don't know what you want to do, make everything you do count. Good luck to you.


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## bandit.45

ButtPunch said:


> I think she will call your bluff. The divorce papers shocked her but she can still see she is running the show. You are pushing this R and I think that is the wrong approach.
> 
> Do not force anymore relationship talks. She needs to want to fix this. I am not seeing it.
> 
> Divorce papers and a complete 180 would have been more appropriate. She can sense you are bluffing and I can too.
> 
> I know it's hard but please try to be steadfast.


I agree totally. 

Hurting you need to back off now and stop pushing her for R. 

Do the 180 in earnest. Let her stew on what you have given her. Don't follow her around asking questions, asking for this, asking for that....

All you are doing is making yourself look like a simpering weasel and she is only going to run from that. You need to start showing her some resolve. You do that by backing off and concentrating on yourself. You show resolve by moving forward with separation. Start dividing up assets, move your money to a secure account, start living for yourself again and quit worrying what she is doing. 

Talking to her about the affair has not worked has it? So why do you keep doing it? Stop. Just stop. Go low profile and wait and watch.


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## Popcorn2015

OP, when you talk about "the divorce papers", what do you mean exactly? Is it something you printed out that you want her to sign or read? Maybe you filled out a form and are waving it over her head?

Or do you mean that you have filed for divorce with a court, and you gave her copies of the paperwork from that?


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## phillybeffandswiss

> I gave her the pass


 You started off very strong, but this is where you made your mistake. This is what she wanted, It gives her time to regroup, get stories straight and turn on the waterworks to get you to back off. 



> She was a total mess last night (and yesterday, remember, we work together so I do see her), she could barely keep it together and it looked like she was on the verge of tears any time she looked at me.


Yes, stress from being caught like a rat in a trap, not just work.


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## Hurting71

She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


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## naiveonedave

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


I am sorry for you. Good luck through D. I know this isn't what you wanted.


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## eastsouth2000

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


dont take rash action just yet.

receive the timeline but after that i suggest you continue to ask her for the polygraph.

you dont know she may change her mind with the polygraph?
does she know that not taking the polygraph is a deal breaker?

Remember this has barely been a month.
It takes time to heal.

I would certainly give it at least 2-3 mos before deciding to seal the divorce.


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## kenmoore14217

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


Good grief H71, she's still leading the parade. At some point in your life you have to step up or live under a bridge the rest of your life!


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## thenub

Tell her to forget about the timeline. If she is refusing the poly, you don't need to see it. It's a moot point now. Forge ahead with the divorce. Don't give her any power over you. The ball is in your court now. You control everything from here on out. 


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## JohnA

Don't read the timeline. You need her to understand no poly no need for timeline. Let her give it to you, without reading it, fold it in half and rip it up. By her actually doing it and you rejecting without reading drives home the point of no trickle truth. 

She will say why a poly, we both know I made mistakes. I want to work on our future, not our past. Your best response would be I don't know who you are. Did I marry the mirage or a person. Let her talk, give her vague and noncommittal answers, keep her talking. The problems with lying is that the more you talk the easier it is for the other person to see the holes.

At all times be polite, diplomatic, and noncommittal. You might want to shake her up by ask her is the 
boy your's or someone elses. Hell, I would have bought a DNA test kit from the pharmacy on hand to drive home the point. (unopened you can return it), 

To those who think this is over the top, it is not. I read a paper (sorry no link) that used multi generational service members to study hereditary health issues. It found 16% of the group study were mistaken as to who they thought were a bio parent.


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## Hurting71

kenmoore14217 said:


> Good grief H71, she's still leading the parade. At some point in your life you have to step up or live under a bridge the rest of your life!


Guess you didn't read the "It's over" part.


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## JohnA

Remember always polite, dipomatic, firm, and noncommittal. She gets nothing from you at this point, especially not your pain, your grief, your anger. Vent only here. She sees only guy in a regretful sitiuation that finds out a person he respected failed themselves, not him. Be the guy who shrugs his shoulder and says. 

"I thought we loved each other, but for whatever reasons, she has issues, she was bored, whatever she betrayed herself, her marriage, her son, and finally me. Anyway the past is the past and sometimes you just need to let go and move on to find someone else to build a life with." 

Dont ask if she regrets it. If she says she regrets it, ask her "how can you regret something you wanted so badly and enjoyed?" 

You carry that attitude into discussions with her, she will show by her words and actions who she is.


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## farsidejunky

Hurting71 said:


> Guess you didn't read the "It's over" part.


It is clear and she is still withholding information. I agree that you should hand the timelime back to her without reading it.

You know she is calling your bluff, right?

Brinkmanship, Hurting71. 

I have even money she will fold sometime before divorce is final. But until then, you must show her you will not flinch.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## eric1

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.



The timeline is completely worthless then. Tell her to not waste her time. Chances are the affair is still going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

I'm sorry. But you're in charge now.

Maybe she'll reconsider. No agree she is still testing to see how much control she has. Remember she has been in control of this secret - this phantom on your marriage - for years now. It's hard to give up control. You are asking her to declare unconditional surrender and defeat. No one goes down without a fight. This was her last negotiating point. In her mind, this play was the only one she had to avoid complete exposure, humiliation, loss of face, loss of possibility...

Cool and collected even if it's killing you.

If she realizes she HAS to telease control, and maybe she can save her marriage, she might.

History has told her you'll leave if you know the truth. Probably happened with mom.

So... If you let her stew... And help her a little by giving a window of hope that you guys can stay married even if the worst truth is revealed, you may have a shot.


Now I haven't been there so my advice is only based on personal and business negotiations. Keep that in mind... But maybe at this point, after stewing, maybe you say "you do know I love you, right? I don't understand how you coukd throw away our marriage. But worse, I don't understand why your pride is more important than your marriage. We both know you cheated on me. Everyone knows. Now you have the choice to let the full truth out. You can't hurt me any worse than you already have (lie here I know). But you are more afraid of admitting to all the sordid details than you are of breaking up the family. I just don't understand. Will you do me the courtesy - since it's my marriage too - of explaining this to me?"

If you get her talking and she senses she can come clean - you might even add you suspect it's still going on - but if you might still R if that comes out, she might spill.

In negotiations, the other party sometimes has to be backed into a corner, allowed to realize they are trapped, then be given a narrow path that you want but which is better than nothing. Hard ball.

Good lucj


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## bigfoot

I read the "it's over" part. What you have not answered is what did you mean by "gave her divorce papers"?

Did you file for divorce and have her served? I am not aware of anywhere that just lets one party hand the other person divorce papers. Too much room for people to lie and say they did it when they didn't in an effort to get a default.

So are you going to file or did you file? Please clear that up. It would put this latest plot twist some perspective.

(1) If you just printed some stuff off the web and gave it to her, then she just called your bluff and raised the ante. 

(2) If you actually filed and gave her a copy as a courtesy and plan to have her formally served later, then she just told you that she's fine with divorce and wants it. She's willing to give you some info, but only because it seems like the decent thing to do.

See, the phrase "it's over" means very little when the BS wants the WS. They don't mean it and no one believes them, but it helps the BS to gain some sense of strength. Still, as it seems, she keeps looking you in the eye and asking"so what are you going to do about it"?


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## TheTruthHurts

Btw there is positive in this. Remember she could have said no timeline. Instead she offered it. She is still negotiating. Life is a negotiation, my friend. As long as someone is at the table it can be turned around. Keep them at the table. 

Your job in all of life's negotiations - particularly with a spouse is not to avoid conflict - it's to seek it out and search for the win-win.

Her win is saving her marriage, getting a huge burden off her back, getting the look of distain off your face. Its got to be killing her. Offer her this salvation.


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## Truthseeker1

farsidejunky said:


> It is clear and she is still withholding information. I agree that you should hand the timelime back to her without reading it.
> 
> You know she is calling your bluff, right?
> 
> Brinkmanship, Hurting71.
> 
> I have even money she will fold sometime before divorce is final. But until then, you must show her you will not flinch.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She has displayed zero remorse and is still in CYA mode...perhaps she is planning on taking the affair deeper underground? 

H71 listen to these people..they will NOT steer you wrong


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## TheTruthHurts

Keep this in your bag of tricks but don't use it before other negotiation tactics. Ask her "don't you want to get this horrible thing off your back? Don't you want to get this behind you? Don't you want your children to have mom and dad to nutmrtute them, watch them grow, teach them how to handle the bad sh*tvlife throws them? Let's do this and start the process of moving forward."

This is a later tactic because it can force them to become defensive. But it can still be effective if it's s last chance save and you can deliver it with a sense of slight shame but more hope. Like the cats out of the bag, let's just move forward. Like there's no reason not to do this at this point.


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## Pluto2

I'm sorry Hurting.
I wouldn't bother reading her timeline-just more lies and you, my friend, have had far too many of those.

Are you sleeping? Are you eating?
There's still much to do. She will need to take you at your word-the over part-so try to work more on the 180. It helps. I was horribly co-dependent in my marriage and it made a difference as to how I respond to communications.
Perhaps, if she sees you are sincere in your actions to end the marriage she will re-think her response. Perhaps. I wouldn't count on it.
Again, I am sorry you are here.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


She backed out of taking the poly. Now there's a shocker.

There's more. Probably a lot more to her cheating than you'll ever know.

She agreed to the poly up front to buy time. The only way that you get any truth now is with a VAR and I'm guessing that you're not going to bother at this point.

I'm sorry that your situation has seemed to have gone the same way as countless others on here. Like I said, given the specifics of what you know she's done already it was far more likely that the unfaithfulness ran for longer and deeper then she was ever going to let on it had.

My guess is she thought that if she could get you to stay married she figured she would try and make sure that this never happened again.

If you had fallen for it and tried R under these circumstances however, the chances of this happening again sometime down the road would have been very high IMO.

Again, sorry. I don't know you, but I know you didn't deserve this. I suggest a hard 180, tell her the guest room will be where she sleeps until the D. File the D papers. Expose to any family/friends that don't know yet to head off any misinformation she may try to push about why you're splitting up.


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## TheTruthHurts

Absolutely agree with Pluto - this is a poker table, my friend. 180 is poker face. makes all the difference in how she sees and reads you.

Btw been doing sales and negotiations over 30 years. I'm not the negotiator. I'm the weapon of mass distruction. I'm the wicked smart analyst at the side that will tear apart the lies. I'm the polygraph guy. No one doubts that guy. He's just waiting there. Might be theatrics but might be real. Been involved in multimillion dollar deals, and negotiations about 2 people in an organizational restructuring. Big and small - all the same. You have to have carrot and stick. EVERYONE has dirty little secrets they'd rather keep secret. Bad sales assumptions they've provided... numbers that don't add up... etc. even huge deals have this bluster. Buoy systematically take apart and discard the BS. If they can get one by you they will. If they can't and it's still a good deal they'll take it.

Zig zigglar wrote a bunch of sales books my mom used to quote. The best ones - know when to close a deal. Most people keep selling after the client has already made the decision to buy, and end up unselling and ruining the deal.

So when the facade finally cracks you have to deliver on the sale. That means have the poly completely ready. Maybe you're in the car together, feeling kind of funky and nostalgic (keep some photos of the good times - that's what you're selling) and she feels a little sad, you look at her with hope and smile and say lets just do this and start driving to the poly. Hope after the pain. She will have to do a 180 after feeling good about you to force you to NOT go there once you're driving. It's the closing. It's "no, come one honey, we're doing this. It will be one horrible moment then we'll get past it together. Let's do it together"

Use your own words and scenario but this is you leading her to salvation not the electric chair


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


Ok. 

That means the affair was far longer than she told you, or is still going on, or that there were more. 

And that means she will likely soon approach you with a new story with slightly more detail, but with a lot more tears and a lot more accusations. 

Move ahead with the divorce. There's history and motive here, man. 

I'm so sorry. Keep posting. It helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

Btw I agree with all these other guys. I'm just providing a path forward to win still. Win the truth, unburden her, allow you guys to R or D with the truth out.

Remember it's FAR from over. The swat team doesn't give up even in the most dire hostage situations. The negotiators are there. There has to be a fairy tale ending out there just visible in the distance. It can't be all gloom and doom. You turn from the bad guy - making her reveal all this - to the good guy who is her only hope. Takes a little time and a lot of hardcore reality (D and 180 and resolve) but also hope (she has to somehow see the hope so the photos and maybe even an art project, clay pot or something are the reminders).


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## Hurting71

I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it. It's amazing how much crap you have stored in your head that comes up at times like these, all the "Ah-ha" and "oh yea" moments were you say to yourself "why didn't I see it back then". The papers will be signed and notarized by both of us for a "no contest/fault" divorce tomorrow. I will file them with the county Monday afternoon. In my state and county this kind of divorce takes 90 days to be granted.


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## workindad

Hurting71 said:


> She just told me she will give me the timeline tonight but is NOT going to take the polygraph. It's over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice.


Sorry OP- Unfortunately, she has just confirmed what many posters here have been saying. There is more to the story than she admitted to and more than she plans to admit to.

As far as R goes, her timeline will be a waste of paper now.

You have the correct mindset. Time to press forward as rapidly as possible with the D.

As far as D goes, her timeline could be useful. 

I can't remember where you are located, perhaps a written timeline where she admits to cheating even for the weekend in question would be helpful in your divorce settlement. Consult your attorney if she does give you anything. 

Press forward with the 180 and protect your assets. Your wife has just confirmed in no uncertain terms that she does not respect you, your marriage or your family. 

Best
WD


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## naiveonedave

Hurting71 said:


> I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it. It's amazing how much crap you have stored in your head that comes up at times like these, all the "Ah-ha" and "oh yea" moments were you say to yourself "why didn't I see it back then". The papers will be signed and notarized by both of us for a "no contest/fault" divorce tomorrow. I will file them with the county Monday afternoon. In my state and county this kind of divorce takes 90 days to be granted.


Unfortunately, I think that you are right. She is refusing, because she can't handle the truth of what she really did and is willing to D to preserve 'her dignity.' I wish you speed in your healing and your future.


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## bfree

Hurting71 said:


> I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it. It's amazing how much crap you have stored in your head that comes up at times like these, all the "Ah-ha" and "oh yea" moments were you say to yourself "why didn't I see it back then". The papers will be signed and notarized by both of us for a "no contest/fault" divorce tomorrow. I will file them with the county Monday afternoon. In my state and county this kind of divorce takes 90 days to be granted.


I totally agree. Your gut told you something wasn't right and rarely does it lead you astray. Seems she would rather maintain some doubt rather than come clean and do the work necessary to try to repair the damage she caused. I'm so sorry it ended up this way but I have a feeling you knew this was where it was headed. Now that R is off the table I would suggest you keep posting so that others that have been through the divorce process can offer advice and insight. Regardless of what she is saying now I fear the situation will become contentious. Rarely has it been otherwise. You should concentrate on you. Make sure to try to maintain healthy eating habits. Try to exercise as you're able. Be calm and collected throughout this process as I have a feeling she's going to try to play on your emotions to throw you off your game.


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## ButtPunch

Hugs Bro

Don't ever let her see you sweat again.

180 180 180 180 180 180 

You are now an unflappable rock


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## TheTruthHurts

If you're at this point - I'm very sorry. I'm not surprised either.

I try not to judge other people's relationships - just their actions.

I agree it's over... but

If she came clean and there were 5 guys and it was as bad as you suspect, would you still love her if she could magically stop? I know it's a crazy question, but live is kind of crazy sometimes.

She is clearly broken. Her mom... her prior relationships. The question I wonder is if she finally faces consequences and faces her dis function and gets counseling to find out why she destroys her relationships - can she change? IDK. Bi normally believe people don't change, but it does happen when extreme life situations occur and when professional help us there to provide insight and teach people more appropriate responses to stress.

So it's a lot to ask but now is the time to ask. IF it's as bad as your worse nightmare but you would still love her, then you have one more hand to play. Not judging if you want to play it - love is pretty powerful.

The play us to just lay it out. "I know there have been a bunch of guys. You're not hiding anything by avoiding the poly. You're only confirming the worst of it. If you could get this out and off your back, is there any way, with counseling, that you could even stop cheating, even if you wanted to?"

She might, out of love, just say "no... I can't stop". Then you guys are on a clean footing and can both go forward with if all basically out. I think she'd probably confess this.

She might, though, plead for help. She may cry and say "I don't know why I do it". My dad was a shrink - people get trapped in awful patterns they can't seem to control. This narrow area is one where help can make a difference to change people's lives.

I'm not trying to give false hope of save a sh*tty relationship or subject you to more crap. But I was reading LinelyHusbands thread and has decided to try to forgive and move forward to R with a very short leash and tough boundaries. He clearly loves his W and wants that. So if it's what you want this might be a path there.


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## bandit.45

Hurting71 said:


> I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it.


I think you are right. 

I'm glad you are pulling the plug. You deserve better.


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## Pluto2

bandit.45 said:


> You deserve better.


:iagree::iagree:


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## Truthseeker1

Hurting71 said:


> I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it. It's amazing how much crap you have stored in your head that comes up at times like these, all the "Ah-ha" and "oh yea" moments were you say to yourself "why didn't I see it back then". The papers will be signed and notarized by both of us for a "no contest/fault" divorce tomorrow. I will file them with the county Monday afternoon. In my state and county this kind of divorce takes 90 days to be granted.


So sorry for you - but now that you have decided on D take care of you - she can go pound sand - her well being is solely her concern now...she is no longer your problem...


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## Graywolf2

Hurting71 said:


> Things haven't been that good between us for a while. I'm a very affectionate man and believe that simple human touch is the key to everyone's happiness. we haven't been close, like that,* for a few years. she's been very distant *but now, all of the sudden she can't keep her hands off of me, lots of hugs and kisses and telling me she is sorry and that she loves me more than anything.


I'm late to your thread and have a question. If your wife was truly feeling guilty about what she had done, where was this "human touch" behavior one month ago, six months ago or a year ago? 

If she is "sorry and loves you more than anything" why did this behavior only start after you found out?

Did she start loving you after you found out or is she trying to manipulate you?


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> I THINK she refused the Poly because there were probably other times with Bill and other men as well. There has been times throughout our marriage where I had a slight suspicion but thought "naaa...she wouldn't do that, she always said that she would leave me before doing that" and blew it off. Her refusing the poly tells me that I am probably right and all those times I thought "well maybe she did" I just loved her too much to see it. It's amazing how much crap you have stored in your head that comes up at times like these, all the "Ah-ha" and "oh yea" moments were you say to yourself "why didn't I see it back then". The papers will be signed and notarized by both of us for a "no contest/fault" divorce tomorrow. I will file them with the county Monday afternoon. In my state and county this kind of divorce takes 90 days to be granted.


How did she respond when you said you're divorcing because she refuses to provide proof that you have the full story?

Did you ask her if she would rather divorce than admit everything to you?


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## Hurting71

Graywolf2 said:


> I'm late to your thread and have a question. If your wife was truly feeling guilty about what she had done, where was this "human touch" behavior one month ago, six months ago or a year ago?
> 
> If she is "sorry and loves you more than anything" why did this behavior only start after you found out?
> 
> Did she start loving you after you found out or is she trying to manipulate you?


I asked her that and she didn't have an answer. Yes, loving me after, she said "I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off of me"


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## Hurting71

marduk said:


> How did she respond when you said you're divorcing because she refuses to provide proof that you have the full story?
> 
> Did you ask her if she would rather divorce than admit everything to you?


No response, we are at work. I walked into the office area where she sits and gave her the opportunity to say something. She just looked angry.


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## Marduk

Hurting71 said:


> No response, we are at work. I walked into the office area where she sits and gave her the opportunity to say something. She just looked angry.


I would say this to her, and then nothing else. In private.

"Wife, since you won't tell me everything and provide me evidence that it is everything, and would rather divorce than do so, I can only conclude that there's so much there that you'd rather divorce than admit to everything."

And then turn and leave.

You will have a full timeline of events within the hour, or you will have your answer if she gives nothing.

Her first response will be tears or attacks, btw.

Or if you honestly no longer care, then throw her out, or tell her to make plans to leave.


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## TheTruthHurts

Hurting71 said:


> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did she respond when you said you're divorcing because she refuses to provide proof that you have the full story?
> 
> Did you ask her if she would rather divorce than admit everything to you?
> 
> 
> 
> No response, we are at work. I walked into the office area where she sits and gave her the opportunity to say something. She just looked angry.
Click to expand...

Anger is not indifference. It's also not regret or remorse. Anger is engagement. She must think it's still on in some manner. I wonder what she'll come back with. Maybe she still thinks she can bully you into rug sweeping. I guess you've said your piece - see what she comes back with.


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## bigfoot

Okay, so you are jointly going to file what in my state is referred to as an "uncontested divorce". Interesting. As you indicated, she just looked mad recently. Better hope she's not about to throw some shyt in the fan.

I've seen these types of divorces go south fast. You'd better consult with a lawyer to advise you how to protect yourself in case she decides to blow up the ship. You don't have to bring the lawyer into the case, just a 1 hour secret consult for a nominal fee will help you to at least position yourself should she decide this is to be a contested divorce.

Looking mad does not bode well. Something does not smell right. Besides 90 days is a long time. It is all about positioning at this point. Get you some advice, pronto.


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## JohnA

What the custody arrangements ?

What is the agreement as to division of assets and assumption of debts,

Is she moving, are you moving, are both of you moving,


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## JohnA

Oh, you do realize her adultery is her not you? Take a second and list her past relationships, including with you. Now look at what she did in that relationship and how it ended. Do you see the pattern ?


----------



## italianjob

TheTruthHurts said:


> If you're at this point - I'm very sorry. I'm not surprised either.
> 
> I try not to judge other people's relationships - just their actions.
> 
> I agree it's over... but
> 
> If she came clean and there were 5 guys and it was as bad as you suspect, would you still love her if she could magically stop? I know it's a crazy question, but live is kind of crazy sometimes.
> 
> She is clearly broken. Her mom... her prior relationships. The question I wonder is if she finally faces consequences and faces her dis function and gets counseling to find out why she destroys her relationships - can she change? IDK. Bi normally believe people don't change, but it does happen when extreme life situations occur and when professional help us there to provide insight and teach people more appropriate responses to stress.
> 
> So it's a lot to ask but now is the time to ask. IF it's as bad as your worse nightmare but you would still love her, then you have one more hand to play. Not judging if you want to play it - love is pretty powerful.
> 
> The play us to just lay it out. "I know there have been a bunch of guys. You're not hiding anything by avoiding the poly. You're only confirming the worst of it. If you could get this out and off your back, is there any way, with counseling, that you could even stop cheating, even if you wanted to?"
> 
> She might, out of love, just say "no... I can't stop". Then you guys are on a clean footing and can both go forward with if all basically out. I think she'd probably confess this.
> 
> She might, though, plead for help. She may cry and say "I don't know why I do it". My dad was a shrink - people get trapped in awful patterns they can't seem to control. This narrow area is one where help can make a difference to change people's lives.
> 
> I'm not trying to give false hope of save a sh*tty relationship or subject you to more crap. But I was reading LinelyHusbands thread and has decided to try to forgive and move forward to R with a very short leash and tough boundaries. He clearly loves his W and wants that. So if it's what you want this might be a path there.


What are you trying to do?

To blame shift this divorce on him?

It isn't her fault for sleeping around, but it's his fault because he doesn't love her enough to let her sleep around?

Really?

He should take back a (possible) serial cheater who refuses to say the truth, because maybe she will stop?

At the present time he shouldn't even consider R, not until she's open to reveal the whole truth in whatever form (poly or else).
And even if she should agree to that, whatever truth comes out he should think very hard before taking her back...


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## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> That means the affair was far longer than she told you, or is still going on, or that there were more.
> 
> And that means she will likely soon approach you with a new story with slightly more detail, but with a lot more tears and a lot more accusations.
> 
> Move ahead with the divorce. There's history and motive here, man.
> 
> I'm so sorry. Keep posting. It helps.


And if I could make a suggestion...?


----------



## GusPolinski

Hurting71 said:


> I bought 2 books on Amazon yesterday; "After the Affair" and *"How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair"*. Have any of you read either these books? How much do you think they will actually help? To be quite honest, I don't think she even has a clue on what to do for me or what I'm actually going through (and neither do I for that matter) so I'm hoping that she gets some good advice from How to Help Your Spouse.


I get that it may not matter at this point, but FTR this is an excellent book.


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## eric1

I disagree with the the few posts suggesting different ways for H71 to approach his wife and try to rationalize with her.

The poor guy has a 400 post thread detailing everything he's done to save the marriage. At some point the burden completely shifts to her and refusing the poly is as clear as a sign as you can get that the time is now.

It basically tells him all he is going to get is lies if he even tries, so why use up any more of his emotional energy, it's likely in a pretty depleted state as it is.

H71 needs to start healing himself now. And that happens by disengagement and counseling at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TDSC60

I noticed in your first post that you called the child "my son". Is he a children from a previous marriage?

If not, get a DNA test for him.

Not to insult your STBXW. Not to find the truth for yourself.

But for future security of the child. Advances in medicine now make it essential that a true medical history be provided and that includes who the bio-parents are.

It is not going to matter to you and you don't need to tell him for many years to come, but having that info on hand can help. It can quickly explain medical anomalies that would other wise be confusing and result in delayed treatment.


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## Pluto2

Good morning Hurting (I'm a late riser)

How are you?


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## sparrow555

*UserName*-----*Posts*
jld--------------------------65
Hurting71------------------42
marduk--------------------42
Pluto2 ------------------ 28
GusPolinski--------------- 20


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## farsidejunky

sparrow555 said:


> UserNamePosts
> jld 65
> Hurting7142
> marduk42
> Pluto228
> GusPolinski20


?

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## Be smart

Such a shame she thinks so little of you my friend.

You gave her a lot of chances over the years to become a better wife and better friend.

She refuses to take polly,she gets angry with you when you want to talk about it,like wtf. 

You should feel lucky that you will get rid of her. She does not deserve you. Now she can go out with her mom and they can talk about how they screwed up their lives. You did try and stay in this marriage for your sake and your son sake,but it is for nothing.

I dont know much about laws,but why didnt you serve her with infidelity reason,why go for other reasons ?

Stay strong.


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## LongWalk

You are doing the right thing.

If she is unwilling to take polygraph, then her timeline could be a work of fiction.

Say no more to her. Stop all the discussion. If she comes and talks to you with a open attitude, you can just tell her that life is about choices.

If she had wanted to save your marriage, she would be confessing everything throw herself at your mercy. Probably inside part of you wants the nasty truth, so that you can forgive her and give reconciliation serious consideration. She's too proud.

Right now do not get angry with her. Go forward with the divorce plans but in the best of spirits.


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## JohnA

Hi @LongWalk.

It is not so much as throwing herself at his mercy as is it about a commitment to honesty and giving him the opportunity to make an informed decision. Throwing herself at his mercy has a connotation of submissiveness, that I think in general needs to be avoided. 

In short it about respecting him. 

It is also about trusting him by sharing the why of her actions. A subject I think she finds painful and has an overwhelming need to hide from the world and herself. We really don't know much about her except: her mother has committed adultery in both of her marriages, Hurt71 wife was in a physically abusive relationship during which she cheated on the guy with Hurting71. We also know she claims she started the adultery when she thought she and Hurt71 were going to divorce. 

Bottom line I am suggesting his wife has deeply rooted self esteem issues that become apparent when her relationship(s) experience stress. Her need to keep this hidden from herself and others may be another reason she refuses to take the poly.


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## TheTruthHurts

JohnA I think you hit the nail on the head but I disagree in that I think this DOES require WW to be submissive. She must release control. She must submit. That is the only way the truth can be exposed and an accounting can occur. It us not submissive to BS in the interpersonal way, but it is all about releasing control.


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## GusPolinski

How have you been, @Hurting71?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

How did this end ? In a post on the 15th of June 2016 you implied that you are in R. She refused to take the poly. What happened next to make you change your mind ?


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## TDSC60

manfromlamancha said:


> How did this end ? In a post on the 15th of June 2016 you implied that you are in R. She refused to take the poly. What happened next to make you change your mind ?


He said when she refused the poly that he "knew" she was hiding more affairs. That there were times in the marriage where he suspected something but explained it away with "she would not do that".

He said the marriage was over and he was moving for an uncontested divorce and she is cooperating with that rather than give him the total truth about her cheating.


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## manfromlamancha

TDSC60 said:


> He said when she refused the poly that he "knew" she was hiding more affairs. That there were times in the marriage where he suspected something but explained it away with "she would not do that".
> 
> He said the marriage was over and he was moving for an uncontested divorce and she is cooperating with that rather than give him the total truth about her cheating.


Thats what he said in this thread but in another post on a later thread of somebody else's he implied that he was in R.


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