# Boundaries and setting them - hers too low



## jdawg2015

Sorry for long first post. Done a ton of reading on the topic on this site about setting boundaries but felt need to get this off my chest and get some rational advice. Really distressed about the way conversations have gone with my fiance. Just can't shake this ONE issue about boundaries. Please read whole post before replying or let me know if need more info. 

My fiancé and I are planning an October wedding and been together 11 months. We are both mid 40s and both divorced. My previous 20 year marrage ended 3 years ago and her 13 marriage ended about 12 years ago.

We are very tight, lots of common activities and are very open in our conversations. We have an agreement on all issues including boundaries. When it comes to the discussion of friends of the opposite sex we have agreement that no one on one for dinners etc. Only if other person is there. Buuuuut, she has made statements that concern me.

1. She stated that she hates to be 'controlled' and only agreed to the no one on one because I've told her it was to protect our relationship. She stated took her while to digest my "conservative" view. 

2. She stated that if not for that reason she would have told me go pount sand. So, seems a reluctance to abide by the agreement but none the less she's agreed.

3. My concern is that she will change and feel forced to accept my feelings about the topic. I have NEVER run into this before as in my marriage and previous girlfriends it was unthinkable to ever be 1:1 with opposite sex. I've never had cheating as an issue in any relationships.

4. When we first started dating she had guy friends who would chat her and that has mostly died down except for 3-4 guys who I've met. One of them I don't think she should have any contact with as feel he's keen for my future wife. Others were in the obvious friend zone even though I know they wanted more. 

5. There is one guy she used to go to dinner with all the time. He is this extremely fat guy (clearly she not physically attracted to him) that's a foodie and he would take her to dinner a fair amount before me and my fiancé started dating. I think she liked the free food and male attention as reason for being his friend. She's way out of his league. In beginning of dating he would chat her to ask to dinner and once she asked me to go with her and have dinner with him. Weird is understatement that I was basically going to dinner with my then girlfriend after being asked on dinner date with another guy. It was very clear he hated my presence but I did not tell her as she would have been put off by it. Every so often she mentions his posts in Facebook and said she missed going to dinner with him. But, after the guy figured out that I would ALWAYS go to dinner with her and not just tell her to go by herself he faded away. Obviously my fiance has not out 2+2 together that this guy pal doesn't come around since he knows I'll be there. I travel for work and always wonder if she would go to dinner with him and not tell me. I do think she could possible initiate the contact if seeing a Facebook post as he's in her friend list. If I could wave a wand I would have her defriend him as he obviously likes the attention from my fiance. The only reason he comes up is when she she's his Facebook posts. Bascially he plays the woo-is-me and she's sympathic too it. No idea how to address this without coming across as controlling as she thinks because she's not attracted to him that it's harmless.

My view is this is a slippery slope. By allowing her to go with this guy, then next time someone who's not a fat azz comes along and she jams me saying were friends, etc. So I want play it safe and nip all the 1:1. My fiance thinks I'm silly about it. 

6. My fiance and I have agreement that exes are 100% off limits for all contact. In fact I told her it's deal breaker. However she has couple exes who will send her a Merry xmas or happy bday text. She does not reply and said after being married officially she will reply to never contact her. She said she leaves their names in her contacts so she knows not to reply. This one I struggle with as it's at least half true. However, I have witnessed a text in January from one of them. She immediately deleted it in front of me but obviously they haven't gotten the hint or she has replied when I'm not around. This one REALLY pisses me off as I feel she should have told them to stop contacting by now and not before marriage. 

7. She has a single guy friend (who I've met) and asked if he wanted to visit in the US would I be ok with him staying with us. I said no fking way would I ever accept that. She seemed to want to find way for me to get me to accept it but I told her that my view will never change on this. Is this a red flag? 

8. I'm American, she's Singaporean. Both are well traveled around the world. Both are attractive professionals but I'm the major breadwinner. My fiance is very attractive. We live in Singapore but will be moving back to the US in less than 2 years as I'm an expat for work.

Other relevant facts:
My fiance was single for 12 years and has fair number of male friends both single and married.
She self-admitted she cheated on her ex husband when marriage ended as a response to her ex husband cheating. I admit that this make me very cautious of her actions but I did not even have to pry the info about it.

My main issue is I think my fiance's boundaries are too low. She thinks as long as she's solid that nothing can or would happen. I think she's very knieve and want to get absolute clarity. What I can't shake is what I perceive as reluctance. 

I've showed her Not Just Friends and the afterword by Shirley Glass and she read it (the afterword) but I'm not sure it fully resonated with her but it did give me a 3rd party voice to show I'm not being irrational. 

How do I go at discussing this? I am very serious that if I saw a text from an ex after being married I would divorce her that instant. How do I convey this to her?

What is the best way to discuss the topic of 1:1 opposite sex friends and interaction when she seemingly agreed reluctantly? I definitely did not feel it was not a resounding agreement from her end. I want to be tactful but lately I've been a bit more stern and she did not seem to take it well. She says I'm too traditional/old fashioned.

What is the most tactful way to bring up the topic and make sure she doesn't resent the boundaires I look for in a marriage? I will never accept a wife to go 1:1 with the opposite sex for dinner, etc. Othwerwise why the hell be married. 

Am I wrong? Am I irrational? It's the ONE issue we haven't fully resolved to my satisfaction. I'd really appreciate advice on this.


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## Chris Taylor

Sounds like she is set in her ways and it's unlikely you will change her.

She likes male attention, although it may indicate that she doesn't get what she needs from you (or from her previous husband) and seeks it elsewhere.

Unfortunately being in her 40's and having 12 years of "freedom" most likely means she won't change and if she says she will, it's only a matter of time before she takes it underground.

I'd suggest walking away.


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## Married but Happy

I'm on her side, actually. Many people have opposite sex friends without ever crossing the ethical lines. You simply have very different views on this, and she has compromised as much as she's going to. Push her, and she will walk away. Trust her, and you may have a relationship worth keeping. If you don't trust her, then you should walk away.


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## Lostinthought61

what does your gut say about this person, do you honestly think she could stay faithful to you and devoid of out of bounds inappropriate behavior? because that is your answer the rest of it is noise. because i will be honest with you....your post screams doubt and doubt is not a good foundation for a new marriage.


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## GA HEART

When me and my (recently ex) BF first started dating, he had issues with my guy friends. We went back and forth about it, as I had similar views as your F. Finally, I DID see where he was coming from and the contact stopped before I decided to become exclusive.

Unfortunately in your situation, you've put up with it for this long, AND put a ring on it. She is unlikely to stop it now. Definitely determine if this is something you can put up with in a marriage (I wouldn't.)


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## Married but Happy

When I was dating again in my mid-40's (like you, OP), I had opposite sex friends, some of whom went back to high school. Some were much more recent. Some had lasted longer than any relationship - so more than 30 years. Give them up because a potential spouse is insecure or doesn't trust me? Absolutely not. I could find another person to date and perhaps marry.


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## happy as a clam

jdawg2015 said:


> *My main issue is I think my fiance's boundaries are too low.* She thinks as long as she's solid that nothing can or would happen. I think she's very knieve and want to get absolute clarity. What I can't shake is what I perceive as reluctance...
> 
> *Am I wrong? Am I irrational?* It's the ONE issue we haven't fully resolved to my satisfaction. I'd really appreciate advice on this.


You're not wrong. You're not irrational. You just view this issue differently than she does, and that is not likely to change.

You cannot MAKE someone see things the same way you do. You can present your thoughts and beliefs and hope they eventually see it your way, but there are no guarantees that they "really" do.

Personally, I think there is too much uncertainty surrounding this issue for you to be comfortable. If you marry her, I think it will be a recurring problem over and over. I would definitely postpone the wedding. And with your level of discomfort and distrust, I would probably end the relationship altogether.


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## Roselyn

I would not marry her. From your post, you mentioned that she cheated on her husband with a justification that he cheated first. You mentioned that she is Singaporean. Her behavior does not pattern the culture with reckless behavior. She is 40 years old and will unlikely change.

She already told you that she is not dating out, simply because you made it a condition in your relationship. This is not her values but yours. She will tire of this scenario and you will be unhappy.


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## happy as a clam

Roselyn said:


> She will tire of this scenario and you will be unhappy.


:iagree:

Wow Roselyn. You nailed it, summed it all up in *eleven* simple words.

OP, this is the way it will go down. I would print out the statement above, keep repeating it to yourself, and ask yourself if this is what you want for your future.


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## manfromlamancha

JDawg, thought I would step in here with my tuppence worth of advice and comments:


First of all she is not as naive as you think about the intentions of these other guys, including the fat guy who used to take her (and you) to dinners. She knows exactly what he wants from her and is/was stringing him along.


As others have said, she obviously likes the male attention as well as the fact that they constitute some kind of "safety net" for her. If you drop her she will still have her network of potential paramours/husbands.


Facebook will always be a source of potential pain and problems and still being in contact with exe's and potential lovers is never a good idea. She should defriend/block them. Its something that she should want to do, though. If you have to push for it, then its a red flag.


There is also no doubt in my mind from what you have said, that given the right "circumstances", she could easily cheat. The circumstances would be attention from a wealthy attractive male coinciding with some event where she feels she was wronged by you and was justified. So be very careful here.


The boundaries that you laid down are normal and should almost have come from her without you suggesting it. The fact that she really doesn't want these boundaries should tell you a great deal. Of course she is going to break these boundaries when the time comes. Based on this alone I would seriously reconsider marrying her.


I am assuming she is Singaporean Chinese (as opposed to Malay). Are any of her exes and/or current suitors Chinese? They tend to have a whole different conversation level going on when they are with each other. Another thing to be careful of.


All in all, she sounds like an OK girlfriend but not suitable wife material (and she probably knows that). So why do you want to marry her ? Are there any kids involved on either side?

Date but don't marry till she is well committed to the idea of no OSF's (on her own without you pushing for it).


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## TRy

jdawg2015 said:


> 1. She stated that she hates to be 'controlled' and only agreed to the no one on one because I've told her it was to protect our relationship. She stated took her while to digest my "conservative" view.


 If she is already playing the I do not want to be "controlled" card, this will not go away as an issue once you get married. The I do not want to be "controlled" statement is right out of the cheater handbook, and ignores the fact that by agreeing to be in an exclusive relationship with each other, you are both agreeing to be controlled when it comes to the opposite sex. 



jdawg2015 said:


> 2. She stated that if not for that reason she would have told me go pount sand. So, seems a reluctance to abide by the agreement but none the less she's agreed.


 Her open reluctance is telling you that once you are married and locked in, she will tell you that she never did agree with the logic of this and back away from the agreement. 



jdawg2015 said:


> She self-admitted she cheated on her ex husband





jdawg2015 said:


> My main issue is I think my fiance's boundaries are too low. She thinks as long as she's solid that nothing can or would happen.


 Her boundaries are far too low. Since she is a "self-admitted" cheater, that by definition means that she is not "solid", so her assurances that nothing will happen are false ones.

Everything that she is telling you now are conversations that she had with her ex-husband while she was cheating on him. If you marry her, this will not end well for you. You can take that to the bank. Actually, in the divorce, she will make you go to the bank.


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## PBear

Why engaged after 11 months (or sooner?)? 

I'm usually one saying OSF's are ok, but your fiancé is taking things a step too far, even for me. Seems that she wants to be able to "casually date" while engaged. 

Get out now. The odds of her changing long term are bleak, as others have said. 

C


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## John Lee

You can never guarantee her faithfulness by an agreement, especially a reluctant one. You can only explain your feelings to her and your preferences and hope she will understand enough to agree. It sounds like she is reluctant, and I agree that is not a good scenario. I think you have to evaluate whether you really find her trustworthy or not -- as many have said, you can't change her, you can only determine if you feel comfortable with her.


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## Hicks

I would tell her that you don't allow your wife to date other men.
Tell her if she feels that's too controlling she should not marry you.


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## TRy

jdawg2015 said:


> 1. She stated that she hates to be 'controlled' and only agreed to the no one on one because I've told her it was to protect our relationship. She stated took her while to digest my "conservative" view.





jdawg2015 said:


> 7. She has a single guy friend (who I've met) and asked if he wanted to visit in the US would I be ok with him staying with us. I said no fking way would I ever accept that. She seemed to want to find way for me to get me to accept it but I told her that my view will never change on this. Is this a red flag?


 If her "single guy friend" staying over, there would be many times when the two of them would be home and you would not, thus in trying to get you to agree to having this guy stay over, she was in affect already trying to break the "no one on one" agreement. Your gut it right in telling you that this is a big red flag.


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## BWBill

You already know the answer to your question.

You can't change her.


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## tryingpatience

You're not controlling. You just have different values. Also, bringing her to the US won't solve your problems. She'll still have the same values.

Figure out if you can live with it. But from your post it sounds like you don't feel secure in your relationship.


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## tulsy

PBear said:


> Why engaged after 11 months (or sooner?)? ...


:iagree:

What's the rush to the alter?


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## John Lee

You might try putting it in a way that puts the ball in her court "I can see that you're uncomfortable with some of these rules. I'm not interested in forcing anything on you or controlling you. I think you should give it some thought whether you're really comfortable with my views on these things, because I don't want it to become a problem later."


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## jdawg2015

Chris Taylor said:


> Sounds like she is set in her ways and it's unlikely you will change her.
> 
> She likes male attention, although it may indicate that she doesn't get what she needs from you (or from her previous husband) and seeks it elsewhere.
> 
> Unfortunately being in her 40's and having 12 years of "freedom" most likely means she won't change and if she says she will, it's only a matter of time before she takes it underground.
> 
> I'd suggest walking away.


Wow, tons of feedback from everyone, greatly appreciated. Felt like I was driving myself bonkers with over thinking things or being irrational.

I don't think just walking away is necessary YET, but I am definitely taking all these posts under advisement and keeping my eyes and ears open.

Going to have some very frank discussions over the next week and sort this out. What sucks is there has never been an issue but my FEAR is will she change or will her being married and settled down just make this a non event the more time passes. I've already seen this to a large degree so don't want to over react and make something out of nothing.

Totally agree on not trying to change her, but if she values our relationship I'm going to find out soon.


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## jdawg2015

GA HEART said:


> When me and my (recently ex) BF first started dating, he had issues with my guy friends. We went back and forth about it, as I had similar views as your F. Finally, I DID see where he was coming from and the contact stopped before I decided to become exclusive.
> 
> Unfortunately in your situation, you've put up with it for this long, AND put a ring on it. She is unlikely to stop it now. Definitely determine if this is something you can put up with in a marriage (I wouldn't.)


Can I ask you what was it that made you see the "other" side? And was it something that happened over time or in a flash?

I actually haven't put up with it. She knows it's an out of bounds and has not even tested me on it as I told her that this is not a view that will ever change for me. 

She's not stupid and in some ways I feel part of this is her testing how much I value her. 

What I reaaaaallllly want to know is does she deep down have an issue with no 1:1 or has she accepted it unequivocally. I'm looking for ways to get this answer from her without my push but rather willingness from her.


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## jdawg2015

tulsy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> What's the rush to the alter?


By October it will have been 19 months of being together. I don't think it's too fast.

We are not married yet......


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## jdawg2015

Married but Happy said:


> When I was dating again in my mid-40's (like you, OP), I had opposite sex friends, some of whom went back to high school. Some were much more recent. Some had lasted longer than any relationship - so more than 30 years. Give them up because a potential spouse is insecure or doesn't trust me? Absolutely not. I could find another person to date and perhaps marry.


Guy friends whom I know support a relationship or marriage is one thing. Guy friends she has friend zoned but they are still keen should be avoided. 

So I think you have to be careful with blanket statements. If a friend takes away from a relationship then they aren't "friends".

Plenty of male guys that are friends just hang around waiting for opportunity. That's a reality that I won't ignore.

Having seen so many affairs by friends and coworkers, I believe that opposite sex friends do in fact have to be limited to large degree when in a committed relationship and definitely once married. Definitely never 1:1 and if
either souse has issue with another spouses opposite sex friend they think is getting to close they need to be cut.

My fiance has a woman I know that she has problems with and I cut her out entirely. And there was nothing going on at all but could definitely see why my fiancé would see the other woman as a threat. If that woman is true friend then she would understand why there needs to be distance.

When I read your reply, obviously we are worlds apart on view on this but my thought is my relationship or marriage comes first. I don't see how it could be healthy if you value friends over a marriage, ever. 

My fiance is my best friend and I'm working every way I can to understand both sides and air out any issues, etc. If I valued my friends more than her than I would just move on. 

I'm really curious how you get past the conundrum of a friend supplanting a marriage.


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## SongoftheSouth

Man call off the engagement. This is not going to work. Find someone else or even be lonely by yourself, but this has misery written all over it for you.


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## jdawg2015

Songs of... Care to elaborate on what is the issue and why you think in such drastic terms?


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## MEM2020

This is an interesting thread. 

On the one hand, I agree with your overall philosophy.

On the other - your tone seems 'off'. 

This bit about: If I ever saw a text from XYZ after we married, I'd divorce her on the spot. 

That reflects a hair trigger posture that says more about you than her. 

Transparency is a funny thing. It's incredibly valuable and yet highly asymmetric. Meaning that you can easily give transparency to someone but it's darn near impossible to demand that they give it back. 

As far as your guidelines - all good. But your mindset is not one that makes for a happy marriage. 

That said - you and I are different in a key area. I focus almost solely on how M2 treats ME. I'm not worried about other guys. I don't feel threatened by them. Partly because I trust M2 and partly because I really believe if she wants to be with someone else - she should do that. I'm her partner - not her owner. 





jdawg2015 said:


> Guy friends whom I know support a relationship or marriage is one thing. Guy friends she has friend zoned but they are still keen should be avoided.
> 
> So I think you have to be careful with blanket statements. If a friend takes away from a relationship then they aren't "friends".
> 
> Plenty of male guys that are friends just hang around waiting for opportunity. That's a reality that I won't ignore.
> 
> Having seen so many affairs by friends and coworkers, I believe that opposite sex friends do in fact have to be limited to large degree when in a committed relationship and definitely once married. Definitely never 1:1 and if
> either souse has issue with another spouses opposite sex friend they think is getting to close they need to be cut.
> 
> My fiance has a woman I know that she has problems with and I cut her out entirely. And there was nothing going on at all but could definitely see why my fiancé would see the other woman as a threat. If that woman is true friend then she would understand why there needs to be distance.
> 
> When I read your reply, obviously we are worlds apart on view on this but my thought is my relationship or marriage comes first. I don't see how it could be healthy if you value friends over a marriage, ever.
> 
> My fiance is my best friend and I'm working every way I can to understand both sides and air out any issues, etc. If I valued my friends more than her than I would just move on.
> 
> I'm really curious how you get past the conundrum of a friend supplanting a marriage.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
people have very different opinions on this. 

My wife and I both have opposite-sex friends whom we often see when the other isn't present. Neither of us would want it any other way.


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## GA HEART

jdawg2015 said:


> Can I ask you what was it that made you see the "other" side? And was it something that happened over time or in a flash?
> 
> I actually haven't put up with it. She knows it's an out of bounds and has not even tested me on it as I told her that this is not a view that will ever change for me.
> 
> She's not stupid and in some ways I feel part of this is her testing how much I value her.
> 
> What I reaaaaallllly want to know is does she deep down have an issue with no 1:1 or has she accepted it unequivocally. I'm looking for ways to get this answer from her without my push but rather willingness from her.


Funny you should ask......I recently broke up with the BF because he was trying to change me. Not in this sense, as I had already cut off most contact with all of my male friends, but in several other ways. 

In hindsight, I probably caved too early. But did so for the right reasons. I did see that some of my male "friends" were ones who were sniffing around....interested in me, although I was committed and not interested in them. But it bothered my BF, and I cared enough about him to cut off most of the "sniffers." Never saw anyone 1:1 after that, but did continue occasional communication or saw them in groups.

Bottom line is even if she does what you wish on this, it doens't mean her views have changed. Mine really didn't CHANGE, I am just good at trying to put myself in someone else's shoes. Unfortunately, that's not always the best approach to take, unless your partner is willing to do the same. So if you want her to see your POV, you have to be willing to see and accept hers.


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## jdawg2015

GA, I read your post about your break up. Me and my fiancé don't have any of the issues that you had with your bf and definitely no cruel argument and name calling.

In my opinion for any person to be in a relationship, especially living together and contacting exes or anybody who could be a romantic interest is nothing more than keeping your options open. And if you did it in secret then you crossed a line.

Living like that you will have trouble with all relationships. Sorry but just telling it like it is.


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## frusdil

MEM11363 said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> 
> On the one hand, I agree with your overall philosophy.
> 
> On the other - your tone seems 'off'.
> 
> This bit about: If I ever saw a text from XYZ after we married, I'd divorce her on the spot.
> 
> That reflects a hair trigger posture that says more about you than her.


^^This.

I too agree with your philosophy, but your use of words like "allow" and phrases like "I'll divorce her on the spot" trouble me. You're her fiancé, not her father. You can't allow or forbid her to do anything.

What you can do though, is make your boundaries clear and then enforce them if they are broken. That's IT.

In saying that, I do agree with your philosophy, and I honestly believe that your (both yours and hers) values are too different for the marriage to last. You asked if she'll resent you for these boundaries (which again, I feel are totally reasonable). The answer is yes. BIG time.


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## AVR1962

I would not be comfortable with this. Your finance might be seeing these men as friends but I wonder how the men feel about her. I don't think it is good to be seeing opposite sex friends for dinners and chat time. This is how too many emotional affairs start. I personally feel if she cannot see your point of view on this subject you need to move on. It is not a control issue in my opinion. It is a safety issue to protect the relationship. 

If you are not ready to walk, let me suggest that you ask if it would be a problem for you to join her with these male friends. It would be interested to see what her reaction would be and how comfortable the men would be.


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## MEM2020

Well done. You've now put your finger on exactly what was troubling me.

You're marrying a woman you describe as very attractive and presumably socially competent/adept. 

A woman like that ALWAYS has her options open. I don't mean by actively spending time with men who are chasing her. I mean - because of who she is. 

If you two broke up, how long would it take her to find a high quality male to - ummm - replace you? 

So - with someone like that - the WORST thing you can do is come from a place of fear. And that my man - is exactly what's driving this. Your fear of losing her. 

That's the worst way to play this situation with any woman, but even more so with a very attractive woman. 

What I didn't say - in my earlier post - was this: My view of M2 leaving for someone else is simple. Yes I would be hurt. And then I would move on. I'd meet someone else and would be fine. 

That said, if she was inclined towards this boundary pushing behavior, I wouldn't demand an end to it. I would openly mirror it. She couldn't tolerate that - and would quickly cease and desist solely to regain her OWN peace of mind. 

And FWIW - this is my prediction. If you don't get on top of your 'fear of loss' - and you proceed to get married with this heavy handed approach: you'll be in a sexless marriage within a relatively short time. Women don't sleep with fearful men over the long haul. It's a huge turnoff.....






jdawg2015 said:


> GA, I read your post about your break up. Me and my fiancé don't have any of the issues that you had with your bf and definitely no cruel argument and name calling.
> 
> In my opinion for any person to be in a relationship, especially living together and contacting exes or anybody who could be a romantic interest is nothing more than keeping your options open. And if you did it in secret then you crossed a line.
> 
> Living like that you will have trouble with all relationships. Sorry but just telling it like it is.


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## jdawg2015

An update.

We had long talk over weekend. She feels I'm too "traditional" but does concede that there needs to be higher boundaries.

As it is today, I can not accept what she wants so we've agreed to make list and go through it one by one.

My biggest red flag so far is this: She has an ex bf who will text her from time to time. She doesn't reply but he still sends text (valentines, bday, xmas, bascially key days). I told her I would like her to contact him via text and tell him never to contact her again as it bothers me he's so persistent and doesn't get the hint.
She said "he will eventually figure it out". This guy is married so I said perhaps I should text his wife and wish her all the things he does to my future wife. My fiance said she didn't appreciate the harshness and wanted to handle herself.

I told her if she valued our relationship than cutting and ex out should be easy but she seemed unmoved.

So obviously we have key value issues in the relationship to iron out. Not fun but doesn't look good..


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## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Well done. You've now put your finger on exactly what was troubling me.
> 
> You're marrying a woman you describe as very attractive and presumably socially competent/adept.
> 
> A woman like that ALWAYS has her options open. I don't mean by actively spending time with men who are chasing her. I mean - because of who she is.
> 
> If you two broke up, how long would it take her to find a high quality male to - ummm - replace you?
> 
> So - with someone like that - the WORST thing you can do is come from a place of fear. And that my man - is exactly what's driving this. Your fear of losing her.
> 
> That's the worst way to play this situation with any woman, but even more so with a very attractive woman.
> 
> What I didn't say - in my earlier post - was this: My view of M2 leaving for someone else is simple. Yes I would be hurt. And then I would move on. I'd meet someone else and would be fine.
> 
> That said, if she was inclined towards this boundary pushing behavior, I wouldn't demand an end to it. I would openly mirror it. She couldn't tolerate that - and would quickly cease and desist solely to regain her OWN peace of mind.
> 
> And FWIW - this is my prediction. If you don't get on top of your 'fear of loss' - and you proceed to get married with this heavy handed approach: you'll be in a sexless marriage within a relatively short time. Women don't sleep with fearful men over the long haul. It's a huge turnoff.....


Sorry, but you definitely don't understand this relationship and any man or woman can move on to someone else....... I appreciate all advice and viewpoints so I can look at every possible angle but this isn't about fear. This is about making sure me and my fiance have clear communication about core values.

She even told me that if I ever hit send on an SMS to an ex that it would cause he to end the relationship as it would be a violation of trust.

My fiance and myself are worlds apart on the issue of opposite sex friends. I know 99.9% of men would not be comfortable with what she wants.


----------



## MEM2020

So you aren't allowed to but she is?

She doesn't sound all that into you. Women don't act like this towards a man they respect. 




jdawg2015 said:


> Sorry, but you definitely don't understand this relationship and any man or woman can move on to someone else....... I appreciate all advice and viewpoints so I can look at every possible angle but this isn't about fear. This is about making sure me and my fiance have clear communication about core values.
> 
> She even told me that if I ever hit send on an SMS to an ex that it would cause he to end the relationship as it would be a violation of trust.
> 
> My fiance and myself are worlds apart on the issue of opposite sex friends. I know 99.9% of men would not be comfortable with what she wants.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> So you aren't allowed to but she is?
> 
> She doesn't sound all that into you. Women don't act like this towards a man they respect.


No, she agrees not allowed to contact exes on either side. But, she isn't clean about cutting contact. The married guy who texts her has done so for many years and she seems reluctant to cut that tie even if they are truly ex. 

I told her if ex who is married is texting her behind his spouse's back that it's huge red flag. I asked if she is willing to proactively cut the tie 100% by telling him never to text again. She simply said, "you have to trust me not to text or reply and let me handle it". I felt slighted that she wasn't willing to kill this issue.

PS: This is senstive topic and dealing with real emotion so appreciate you consider that. I We are working through the issue but right now I'm feeling ready to end things if not satisfied.


----------



## AVR1962

Everything your girlfriend is doing to others right now, can easily be the way she treats you eventually. She is keeping these men strung allow by still texting and communicating with them and seems to think it's safe and okay just because they are exes. Not only is it not acceptable for the married ma n but it's not acceptable for your girlfriend to be contact him or any of the other men. I agree with you, she needs to let these men go and she needs to be the one that makes that clear to each of them.


----------



## jdawg2015

AVR1962 said:


> Everything your girlfriend is doing to others right now, can easily be the way she treats you eventually. She is keeping these men strung allow by still texting and communicating with them and seems to think it's safe and okay just because they are exes. Not only is it not acceptable for the married ma n but it's not acceptable for your girlfriend to be contact him or any of the other men. I agree with you, she needs to let these men go and she needs to be the one that makes that clear to each of them.


I think she likes the attention. Of course I've never heard her admit fault in any of her failed prior relationships

The crappy part of this is if we fully aligned on this issue it would be perfect relationship. My guy tells me this is a bridge too far. Tonight we talk and set boundaries.

She said can meet halfway but I also need to compromise. But I have too much self-respect to give in on core values. Taking out garbage is one thing, allowing her to go to 1:1 dinner dates with guy friends I can not accept. She said will always invite me but if I can't (such as when I travel for work) that I should accept it. Said would never go with an ex.....

We also working through electronic type items such Facebook and email but this was covered previously and we're aligned. It's the text/sms that is issue (and also easiest to conceal IMO).

Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage.


----------



## happy as a clam

jdawg2015 said:


> *I think she likes the attention.*













*Women who like that kind of attention, unfortunately, usually don't suddenly STOP liking that kind of attention.*


----------



## Nucking Futs

jdawg2015 said:


> I think she likes the attention. Of course I've never heard her admit fault in any of her failed prior relationships
> 
> The crappy part of this is if we fully aligned on this issue it would be perfect relationship. My guy tells me this is a bridge too far. Tonight we talk and set boundaries.
> 
> She said can meet halfway but I also need to compromise. But I have too much self-respect to give in on core values. Taking out garbage is one thing, *allowing her to go to 1:1 dinner dates with guy friends I can not accept. She said will always invite me but if I can't (such as when I travel for work) that I should accept it.* Said would never go with an ex.....
> 
> We also working through electronic type items such Facebook and email but this was covered previously and we're aligned. It's the text/sms that is issue (and also easiest to conceal IMO).
> 
> Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage.


Sounds like you've got it all worked out. You compromise your values and she gets to date other men when you're not around. 

She's apparently quite the prize. If you were her equal you would kick her to the curb. She knows it, knows she has the power in the relationship, knows she can insist on something that no reasonable man would accept, and you'll accept it.


----------



## happy as a clam

jdawg...

I had high hopes for you.

Now, I think you're just "towing the party line" of a woman who has you SNARED beyond what you are willing to ADMIT.

Time to toss this one back. Seriously.


----------



## MEM2020

A romantic partner ONLY employs extreme gas lighting (like the below) AFTER they have emotionally overpowered the other person. In a balanced relationship - if one said this - the other would burst out laughing and then begin to pack up their stuff....
*
Oh darling of COURSE you can attend my intimate 1:1 dinner dates with potential suitors, as long as you don't happen to be out of town on business.......*

It is ONLY possible to say that straight faced - to someone you don't respect. 




happy as a clam said:


> jdawg...
> 
> I had high hopes for you.
> 
> Now, I think you're just "towing the party line" of a woman who has you SNARED beyond what you are willing to ADMIT.
> 
> Time to toss this one back. Seriously.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,
Your ONLY hope of success is to stop trying to sell your value system to your fiancée. And FWIW you'll do better if you accept a few things as true:
- This has nothing to do with you two not being married yet. She fully understands that all this intense talk is because you desperately DO want to get married. A wedding ring is NOT going to change her viewpoint. 
- When you two have these conversations: you are tense and focused on getting HER to agree to what you want - that's a sure fire train wreck.

Below is an alternative approach which is WAY WAY more effective at discovering where her head is at.

Dawg: I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do. And clearly this freedom to see other men is very important to you. I think it's best to accept that we aren't compatible. 

If she agrees - which she may - leave her feeling like she made a huge mistake by wrapping up with a very classy exit line: I'm grateful for the time we've had together. 

There is NOTHING more appealing to a woman than a man who LOVES but doesn't NEED. 

M2 spent the weekend telling me she's 'in love with me'. Been together 25 years. Nothing better than that - because I'm in love with her. 

So - how does someone pull that off? How does someone manage to do for 25 years - something that typically lasts for the first 2-3 years? 

By separating love and need. 

Sometimes M2 - is not 'in' love with me. And that's ok. Contrasts are hot. I absolutely don't chase her - when she's not 'in' love with me. I'm patient. Eventually she begins to chase me. 

You my man - are attempting to use a verbal contract - to compensate for a lack of love (on her part). 

This WILL produce an unhappy result. 





jdawg2015 said:


> An update.
> 
> We had long talk over weekend. She feels I'm too "traditional" but does concede that there needs to be higher boundaries.
> 
> As it is today, I can not accept what she wants so we've agreed to make list and go through it one by one.
> 
> My biggest red flag so far is this: She has an ex bf who will text her from time to time. She doesn't reply but he still sends text (valentines, bday, xmas, bascially key days). I told her I would like her to contact him via text and tell him never to contact her again as it bothers me he's so persistent and doesn't get the hint.
> She said "he will eventually figure it out". This guy is married so I said perhaps I should text his wife and wish her all the things he does to my future wife. My fiance said she didn't appreciate the harshness and wanted to handle herself.
> 
> I told her if she valued our relationship than cutting and ex out should be easy but she seemed unmoved.
> 
> So obviously we have key value issues in the relationship to iron out. Not fun but doesn't look good..


----------



## TRy

jdawg2015 said:


> Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage.


 When you said "Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage", you were stating only part of what she wants. The full statement would read "Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage; once married she then wants to take her past actions into the present, knowing that by then it would be much harder for you to do anything about it.


----------



## Lostinthought61

She can put what ever spin she wants on it but at the end of the day you both have to face each other and the question on the table is the following: Which relationship is the most important in your life, and are you 100% committed to ensure that no one else will interfere in the course of that relationship (aside from God and yourself)?
if she feels that she need to associate with these men is more important then the relationship you then you have your answer, and if she starts throwing in words like controlling or freedom then you have your answer as well. walk away...because trust me on this, if you give her an inch she will take a mile after you are married...and if at this point your still hell bend to marry her, get a pre-up and put a cheating clause in it, just to CYA


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> Your ONLY hope of success is to stop trying to sell your value system to your fiancée. And FWIW you'll do better if you accept a few things as true:
> - This has nothing to do with you two not being married yet. She fully understands that all this intense talk is because you desperately DO want to get married. A wedding ring is NOT going to change her viewpoint.
> - When you two have these conversations: you are tense and focused on getting HER to agree to what you want - that's a sure fire train wreck.
> 
> Below is an alternative approach which is WAY WAY more effective at discovering where her head is at.
> 
> Dawg: I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do. And clearly this freedom to see other men is very important to you. I think it's best to accept that we aren't compatible.
> 
> If she agrees - which she may - leave her feeling like she made a huge mistake by wrapping up with a very classy exit line: I'm grateful for the time we've had together.
> 
> There is NOTHING more appealing to a woman than a man who LOVES but doesn't NEED.
> 
> M2 spent the weekend telling me she's 'in love with me'. Been together 25 years. Nothing better than that - because I'm in love with her.
> 
> So - how does someone pull that off? How does someone manage to do for 25 years - something that typically lasts for the first 2-3 years?
> 
> By separating love and need.
> 
> Sometimes M2 - is not 'in' love with me. And that's ok. Contrasts are hot. I absolutely don't chase her - when she's not 'in' love with me. I'm patient. Eventually she begins to chase me.
> 
> You my man - are attempting to use a verbal contract - to compensate for a lack of love (on her part).
> 
> This WILL produce an unhappy result.


MEM, appreciate the advice and I'm one step ahead of you.

more later.....


----------



## jdawg2015

happy as a clam said:


> jdawg...
> 
> I had high hopes for you.
> 
> Now, I think you're just "towing the party line" of a woman who has you SNARED beyond what you are willing to ADMIT.
> 
> Time to toss this one back. Seriously.


No snaring here. If we walk into a place she grabs MY hand.

She's definitely good looking woman but I'm not exactly a slouch (not gonna toot my own horn). I've had women approach me while at bar with gfs gone to bathroom many time. And no, I don't flirt when in a relationship....

Tossing her back is on the table....


----------



## scatty

I'm not sure where to begin. You can't just compromise when it comes to values. Her not telling her ex to cease communication is like saying his random texts will be more important than your security in the marriage.

You say you travel for work. That isn't good with a woman who doesn't see anything wrong with OS friends. They aren't talking to her or taking her out to dinner for stimulating conversation. You must know this.

Promising to change "after marriage" is ludicrius. Why wouldn't she change now to prove herself worthy of your eternal vow? 

Plus she cheated on her ex because he cheated (or that's what she says.) Do you not see the red flags waving in your face? 

You ARE rushing things. You don't know someone well after a few years. And what you do know is so troubling that you are posting your concerns here. What's the rush? Is she pushing for marriage? Why? 

You shouldn't have to convince your future wife to be on the same page concerning this. Having her read books and trying to convince her to think YOUR way is not going to work. She is who she is. Accept her poor boundaries, past infidelity, and the seemingly dismissal of your concerns or move on. If you do marry, I would suggest she travel with you for work or you give up traveling. I wish you the best, but really think about this.


----------



## jdawg2015

scatty said:


> I'm not sure where to begin. You can't just compromise when it comes to values. Her not telling her ex to cease communication is like saying his random texts will be more important than your security in the marriage.
> 
> You say you travel for work. That isn't good with a woman who doesn't see anything wrong with OS friends. They aren't talking to her or taking her out to dinner for stimulating conversation. You must know this.
> 
> Promising to change "after marriage" is ludicrius. Why wouldn't she change now to prove herself worthy of your eternal vow?
> 
> Plus she cheated on her ex because he cheated (or that's what she says.) Do you not see the red flags waving in your face?
> 
> You ARE rushing things. You don't know someone well after a few years. And what you do know is so troubling that you are posting your concerns here. What's the rush? Is she pushing for marriage? Why?
> 
> You shouldn't have to convince your future wife to be on the same page concerning this. Having her read books and trying to convince her to think YOUR way is not going to work. She is who she is. Accept her poor boundaries, past infidelity, and the seemingly dismissal of your concerns or move on. If you do marry, I would suggest she travel with you for work or you give up traveling. I wish you the best, but really think about this.


Thanks. And yes, I'm heeding all of this advice. We had long talk last night and she was in tears as she saw I was not wavering and willing to part ways. 

I'll update more as it plays out.

But at this point I'm leaning towards ending it. I definitely have the ball in my court now.


----------



## 6301

Look friend. it's plain and simple she has her own personal code. "Don't do what I do, do what I say" She gets bent out of shape when you get attention from another lady but she expects you to turn the other cheek and accept her going out to dinner with some other guy.

What's wrong with this picture? It's called having your cake and eating it too. 

If it was me, I would say no more and let it go BUT the next time your out and you happen to talk to another woman and she gets a bit angry about it, then gently whisper in her ear that now she has an idea of how you feel and if she wants to continue down this road she's free to do so or if she wants to be your wife then things need to change in a hurry.

In all honesty, She's set in her ways and what your getting is a preview of what's down the road and it could cost you a ton of money and even more emotional distress so ask yourself if this good looking woman who plays by her own rules and expects you to play by her rules is worth it all. 

Beauty's only skin deep but ugliness goes straight through to the bone.


----------



## tacoma

jdawg2015 said:


> She self-admitted she cheated on her ex husband when marriage ended as a response to her ex husband cheating.


Who did she cheat with?

Was it perhaps a "friend".

If so she's full of **** on her entire stance about this subject and her hypocrisy should be pointed out to her.


----------



## jdawg2015

6301 said:


> Look friend. it's plain and simple she has her own personal code. "Don't do what I do, do what I say" She gets bent out of shape when you get attention from another lady but she expects you to turn the other cheek and accept her going out to dinner with some other guy.
> 
> What's wrong with this picture? It's called having your cake and eating it too.
> 
> If it was me, I would say no more and let it go BUT the next time your out and you happen to talk to another woman and she gets a bit angry about it, then gently whisper in her ear that now she has an idea of how you feel and if she wants to continue down this road she's free to do so or if she wants to be your wife then things need to change in a hurry.
> 
> In all honesty, She's set in her ways and what your getting is a preview of what's down the road and it could cost you a ton of money and even more emotional distress so ask yourself if this good looking woman who plays by her own rules and expects you to play by her rules is worth it all.
> 
> Beauty's only skin deep but ugliness goes straight through to the bone.


I'm pretty close to this stance ^^. Sorting couple items out but I'm not pushing her, letting her own words make it easy to decide.

I think right now she's worried and would say or do anything just to appease me so I have to be careful. She got very clingy last night and this morning.

The whole reason for my first post was figure out how to extract answers without making her defensive or using an ultimatum.


----------



## MEM2020

That's smart. 

There are two types of marital mindsets:
1. What can I do within reason to make sure my partner is happy with me 
2. What's the bare minimum I have to do in order for my partner not to leave me

You seem like a (1), she sounds like a (2). 

The clear giveaway on her part was that bit about dinners with other men when you are out of town on business. Out of town as the primary breadwinner earning money to provide her a lifestyle she cannot provide herself. 

The fact she's been fighting THAT HARD on this point shows a core lack of respect for what YOU bring to the relationship. And a lack of respect for how you feel about this type stuff despite the fact that she feels the exact same way in reverse. 

At best you have a LOT of rebalancing to do BEFORE you get married. She doesn't perceive you as an equal right now - largely because you've been too nice to her. That's a guess on my part - but an educated guess. 

She needs a bit more edge from you. More edge will make her more grateful - across the board - in how she deals with you. 

And no offense - but if you were one step ahead of me in this whole male/female dynamic - you wouldn't have let things get to the point where your partner is treating you like a subordinate, not an equal. I'm not suggesting that it's blatant - but the superior / subordinate dynamic has quietly crept into your relationship. 

Have you aready drafted the prenup? 

If she truly perceived you as a 'til death due us part' match, she wouldn't be so determined to leave the door open to interviewing upgrade candidates while you travel for business. 




jdawg2015 said:


> I'm pretty close to this stance ^^. Sorting couple items out but I'm not pushing her, letting her own words make it easy to decide.
> 
> I think right now she's worried and would say or do anything just to appease me so I have to be careful. She got very clingy last night and this morning.
> 
> The whole reason for my first post was figure out how to extract answers without making her defensive or using an ultimatum.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> That's smart.
> 
> There are two types of marital mindsets:
> 1. What can I do within reason to make sure my partner is happy with me
> 2. What's the bare minimum I have to do in order for my partner not to leave me
> 
> You seem like a (1), she sounds like a (2).
> 
> The clear giveaway on her part was that bit about dinners with other men when you are out of town on business. Out of town as the primary breadwinner earning money to provide her a lifestyle she cannot provide herself.
> 
> The fact she's been fighting THAT HARD on this point shows a core lack of respect for what YOU bring to the relationship. And a lack of respect for how you feel about this type stuff despite the fact that she feels the exact same way in reverse.
> 
> At best you have a LOT of rebalancing to do BEFORE you get married. She doesn't perceive you as an equal right now - largely because you've been too nice to her. That's a guess on my part - but an educated guess.
> 
> She needs a bit more edge from you. More edge will make her more grateful - across the board - in how she deals with you.
> 
> And no offense - but if you were one step ahead of me in this whole male/female dynamic - you wouldn't have let things get to the point where your partner is treating you like a subordinate, not an equal. I'm not suggesting that it's blatant - but the superior / subordinate dynamic has quietly crept into your relationship.
> 
> Have you aready drafted the prenup?
> 
> If she truly perceived you as a 'til death due us part' match, she wouldn't be so determined to leave the door open to interviewing upgrade candidates while you travel for business.


You are mostly on target on but I tend to pick my battles so I think I have been too nice. This has drastically changed in last two weeks as I started asserting myself on this issue. 

By step ahead I meant in how to deal with things NOW. I can't dwell on what I did or did not do previously and it's wasted energy.

I am gaining traction but the KEY for me is that she wilingly accepts and not to just appease me only to resent it later. I'm working on that angle to let her own words determine my response.


----------



## AVR1962

jdawg2015 said:


> I think she likes the attention. Of course I've never heard her admit fault in any of her failed prior relationships
> 
> The crappy part of this is if we fully aligned on this issue it would be perfect relationship. My guy tells me this is a bridge too far. Tonight we talk and set boundaries.
> 
> She said can meet halfway but I also need to compromise. But I have too much self-respect to give in on core values. Taking out garbage is one thing, allowing her to go to 1:1 dinner dates with guy friends I can not accept. She said will always invite me but if I can't (such as when I travel for work) that I should accept it. Said would never go with an ex.....
> 
> We also working through electronic type items such Facebook and email but this was covered previously and we're aligned. It's the text/sms that is issue (and also easiest to conceal IMO).
> 
> Something tells me she wants to hold onto past until 100% sure this relationship into marriage.


If she is liking this attention it is very likely she is not committed to you and still looking.


----------



## jdawg2015

AVR1962 said:


> If she is liking this attention it is very likely she is not committed to you and still looking.


I don't think she's looking but just wants to keep people nearby for support.

She's actually told me she fears any break-up etc out of insecurity.
We live together and she gave up her apartment to move into my place so if something were to happen between us she would have no where to go. That's reasonable thought as everyone should look out for their interests.

More tomorrow.....


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,
Your approach is spot on. 

As for being too nice - I only mentioned it because when a man is raised a certain way his defaults are: kindness, courtesy and chivalry. These are all good things - and I believe that ALL men should subscribe to them. 

That said, I'll describe a pattern that slowly developed with M2. 

She started interrupting me more and more. And she began to engage in clustered interruptions - where - within the space of a couple minutes she would cutoff the same sentence repeatedly. 

This wasn't when we were fighting. 

The thing is - the occasional interruption doesn't bother me at all. But the trend line was really bad. 

Like you, I pick my battles. It's also true that part of M2's charm is tied to her lack of verbal filter. Often her involuntary utterances are hilarious. Still - I let this one go WAY too long. 

When I addressed it, it wasn't painful for me. I was a bit painful for M2 because it was a bad and long standing habit she had to work on to rid herself of. 

Then again it wasn't really a battle. I told her - calmly - that she was being impolite. And then after she exceeds a small quota of interruptions I proceeded to simply continue to talk over her if she interrupted me. As if she wasn't saying anything at all. 

And for a little while - I employed a form of low voltage electroshock therapy. When M2 would ask me a question (shortly after interrupting me more than once) I would wait 5-10 seconds before responding. That's an eternity to an impatient person (which she is). When asked why the delay, I'd smile and say: babe, I just wanted to make sure you were done talking, the last thing I want to do is add to the excess of interruptions we have going on (then I'd give her an amused smile). 

The thing about this stuff is that it is easy for the other person to say: your being petty

And I'd respond with - it's petty if the behavior is infrequent and mainly a function of having a hgh blurt factor. It is NOT petty when the subtext becomes: I can and will talk over you whenever I'm inclined because I matter way more than you. 

Suffice to say we had a lot of subtle but worsening patterns that all tied back to this theme of: I matter way more than you do

Worked through it all without losing our sense of humor - got to a good place. And in the process I learned something important. 

When M2 does something I don't like, I tell her. The beauty of it is that she doesn't have to agree or apologize. So it doesn't turn into a battle. 

There is an art to this - but it works. It prevents bad trends....




jdawg2015 said:


> You are mostly on target on but I tend to pick my battles so I think I have been too nice. This has drastically changed in last two weeks as I started asserting myself on this issue.
> 
> By step ahead I meant in how to deal with things NOW. I can't dwell on what I did or did not do previously and it's wasted energy.
> 
> I am gaining traction but the KEY for me is that she wilingly accepts and not to just appease me only to resent it later. I'm working on that angle to let her own words determine my response.


----------



## jdawg2015

tacoma said:


> Who did she cheat with?
> 
> Was it perhaps a "friend".
> 
> If so she's full of **** on her entire stance about this subject and her hypocrisy should be pointed out to her.


You know what, this is a really good question. I never asked that detail about who the person was....

To be honest, I've had a total of 5 serious girlfriends, this is sixth. Was married 21 years. This is FIRST time dealing with a person known to have cheated and it does give me an insecurity that developed more over time than initially.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> There is an art to this - but it works. It prevents bad trends....


There is definitely an art to it so I am more strategic about when and how I talk about it.


----------



## batsociety

There's one thing I'm confused about here:



jdawg2015 said:


> She self-admitted she cheated on her ex husband *when marriage ended* as a response to her ex husband cheating. I admit that this make me very cautious of her actions but I did not even have to pry the info about it.


Does this mean she slept with someone once they had separated, but not divorced? Or had they not separated yet? I'm guessing it's the latter but idk.


----------



## Marduk

Listen man, she may comply until October but once the ring is on, you're on borrowed time.

Your wife and my wife sound very similar.

The only thing -- and I mean the only thing -- to get her to see my side is to mirror her behaviour exactly how MEM says.

My advice?

"Listen fiance, I was really excited about marrying you and now I feel like we're rushing into this. I feel like I'm controlling you and trying to get you to be exclusive, when you don't seem ready to take that step. Why don't we do this -- you go be free to date whomever you want and I do the same. We revisit this whole marriage thing in, say, a year to see where each other's at. I will always love you but I just don't think we're in the same headspace right now. And I don't want to hold back someone I care about." Kiss on the cheek, walk away.

And then go do exactly what she has been doing.


----------



## MEM2020

I'd lay a prenup down and then let her decide. 

Because she is really good at this game. 

Note: she says she's keeping her options open because she feels insecure

Nonsense. Any man can read his posts and recognize Jdawg as a gentleman. He's the type to remove insecurity - not add to it. 

She's made it clear where her head is at. She's now quietly realizing he's about to walk. Nothing she says now will mean anything once she has the ring. And yes - she will refer back to this time as when he bullied her.... Deep sigh. 




QUOTE=marduk;11847505]Listen man, she may comply until October but once the ring is on, you're on borrowed time.

Your wife and my wife sound very similar.

The only thing -- and I mean the only thing -- to get her to see my side is to mirror her behaviour exactly how MEM says.

My advice?

"Listen fiance, I was really excited about marrying you and now I feel like we're rushing into this. I feel like I'm controlling you and trying to get you to be exclusive, when you don't seem ready to take that step. Why don't we do this -- you go be free to date whomever you want and I do the same. We revisit this whole marriage thing in, say, a year to see where each other's at. I will always love you but I just don't think we're in the same headspace right now. And I don't want to hold back someone I care about." Kiss on the cheek, walk away.

And then go do exactly what she has been doing.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jdawg2015

batsociety said:


> There's one thing I'm confused about here:
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean she slept with someone once they had separated, but not divorced? Or had they not separated yet? I'm guessing it's the latter but idk.


Yes the latter.

She cheated. Claimed husband neglected her as she cared for kids and had affair. They went to counseling and then divorced.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> She's made it clear where her head is at. She's now quietly realizing he's about to walk. Nothing she says now will mean anything once she has the ring. And yes - she will refer back to this time as when he bullied her.... Deep sigh.


This is what I'm working on and how to get the bottomline out of her. She definitely got the point now. Told her 1:1 is not a value I seek in a marriage partner and that I want her to be happy and decide what she wants out of those relationships. She just said I'm making huge deal out of nothing and that the fat guy was there for her as a friend during tough times over last 5 years. 

Then she said she feels I just want her to cut off any relationship with any guy. 

I told her if those relationships are more important than our relationship then she should be willing to admit such and let me go. Her reply was, "you are trying to change me and control me and I don't like it."

So she knows I'm about to pull plug. 

Worst thing man ever discovered was women:rofl:

PS: The gaslighting is pretty bad. She has a friend whose husband let her travel to Paris with two other women and another single guy for a week. That would never fly with me and told her that in diplomatic way. Apparently I am supposed to relent my values because of ONE other couple.

I will say this. The majority of my friends are married long time and NONE of them would ever be 1:1 with an opposite sex.


----------



## Chaparral

Going out with another man, one on one, for dinner is a date. Does she disagree with that?

Are you telling her she can't have men friends or she just can't go out with them alone? I'm assuming you don't mind her having them around when you're there.

What about gno's?


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk said:


> Listen man, she may comply until October but once the ring is on, you're on borrowed time.
> 
> Your wife and my wife sound very similar.
> 
> The only thing -- and I mean the only thing -- to get her to see my side is to mirror her behaviour exactly how MEM says.
> 
> My advice?
> 
> "Listen fiance, I was really excited about marrying you and now I feel like we're rushing into this. I feel like I'm controlling you and trying to get you to be exclusive, when you don't seem ready to take that step. Why don't we do this -- you go be free to date whomever you want and I do the same. We revisit this whole marriage thing in, say, a year to see where each other's at. I will always love you but I just don't think we're in the same headspace right now. And I don't want to hold back someone I care about." Kiss on the cheek, walk away.
> 
> And then go do exactly what she has been doing.


 Got a link to your story?

My fiance would lay a brick if I started "dating" women 1:1 as told her not my game if in a relationship so I would be laying trap for myself.

I've got a friend who is a super hotty here in Singapore that would love my attention. Really sucks to have to play games like this and if I have to do it as way to make a point then I'd rather just bail.

The more I realize it, she has and ego/self-esteem issue that makes her want to have her exes try and stay latched on even if they have no chance. 

I passed on another woman when I started this relationship and hope it wasn't big mistake. 

I'm clearly in love with my fiancé but I found in last two weeks I've started steeling myself to her BS.


----------



## jdawg2015

Chaparral said:


> Going out with another man, one on one, for dinner is a date. Does she disagree with that?
> 
> Are you telling her she can't have men friends or she just can't go out with them alone? I'm assuming you don't mind her having them around when you're there.
> 
> What about gno's?


No 1:1 fine if I'm there. I also gave scenario that if schedule or something pops up and prevents my presence I would expect her to reschedule or decline. I do think deep down she thinks as long as no sexual stuff that it's just friends. She totally neglects the emotional bonding, taking away from existing relationship angle. 

She then said, "even if you've met them before?" and I said that if she needs 1:1 that it makes me uncomfortable with it.

GNO I could not care less and she does couple times a month.

It's the opposite sex issues that I'm not going to relent on. I totally agree that 1:1 with opposite sex is a date.


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> Got a link to your story?
> 
> My fiance would lay a brick if I started "dating" women 1:1 as told her not my game if in a relationship so I would be laying trap for myself.
> 
> I've got a friend who is a super hotty here in Singapore that would love my attention. Really sucks to have to play games like this and if I have to do it as way to make a point then I'd rather just bail.
> 
> The more I realize it, she has and ego/self-esteem issue that makes her want to have her exes try and stay latched on even if they have no chance.
> 
> I passed on another woman when I started this relationship and hope it wasn't big mistake.
> 
> I'm clearly in love with my fiancé but I found in last two weeks I've started steeling myself to her BS.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

Fair warning: my marriage has gone sideways again, for many reasons including my own weakness and poor boundaries on her part.

My advice?

Run for the damn hills. It's not worth even mirroring her own behaviour. You're not there yet, but I would just be done.

But if you're still going to make a go of it, do what she does.


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html
> 
> Fair warning: my marriage has gone sideways again, for many reasons including my own weakness and poor boundaries on her part.
> 
> My advice?
> 
> Run for the damn hills. It's not worth even mirroring her own behaviour. You're not there yet, but I would just be done.
> 
> But if you're still going to make a go of it, do what she does.


So what are her low boundaries? Do you have issue with her going out with her girlfriends too much or are there men in the picture?

Sorry to hear of the troubles.


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> So what are her low boundaries? Do you have issue with her going out with her girlfriends too much or are there men in the picture?
> 
> Sorry to hear of the troubles.


'Sall good. We're on a better path. I'm good, thanks for the worry but I got it handled for now.

What I'm saying is that it has been years in dealing with it, and it's still not done.

Save yourself the angst.


----------



## MEM2020

All of this is what I expected. You are a gentleman. Which is why you are acting with class, even under duress. 

She's being a fool. 

BTW - what you are doing is textbook boundary enforcement. It's exactly what healthy people do. The fact that she perceives your boundaries as a type of control - proves the incompatibility. 

When you walk she is going to put on quite the hysterical melt down. 




[/B]


jdawg2015 said:


> Got a link to your story?
> 
> My fiance would lay a brick if I started "dating" women 1:1 as told her not my game if in a relationship so I would be laying trap for myself.
> 
> I've got a friend who is a super hotty here in Singapore that would love my attention. Really sucks to have to play games like this and if I have to do it as way to make a point then I'd rather just bail.
> 
> The more I realize it, she has and ego/self-esteem issue that makes her want to have her exes try and stay latched on even if they have no chance.
> 
> I passed on another woman when I started this relationship and hope it wasn't big mistake.
> 
> I'm clearly in love with my fiancé but I found in last two weeks I've started steeling myself to her BS.


----------



## Marduk

Ya. Be ready for histrionics. 

And to be rapidly replaced with some other shmuck that won't kick up such a fuss, and you know, stand up for himself. 

There's lots of those guys around. Don't be one.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> All of this is what I expected. You are a gentleman. Which is why you are acting with class, even under duress.
> 
> She's being a fool.
> 
> BTW - what you are doing is textbook boundary enforcement. It's exactly what healthy people do. The fact that she perceives your boundaries as a type of control - proves the incompatibility.
> 
> When you walk she is going to put on quite the hysterical melt down.
> 
> 
> [/B]


What's messy is we live together and it will require kicking her out.

I'm not there yet, but fingers are clearly ready to enter the nuclear launch codes and just be done with it.


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> What's messy is we live together and it will require kicking her out.
> 
> I'm not there yet, but fingers are clearly ready to enter the nuclear launch codes and just be done with it.


Don't worry.

I'm sure she's got about 67 other guy's place to crash at.

Totally on the couch because they're just friends of course.


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk said:


> Ya. Be ready for histrionics.
> 
> And to be rapidly replaced with some other shmuck that won't kick up such a fuss, and you know, stand up for himself.
> 
> There's lots of those guys around. Don't be one.


I don't care about what she does if we end it. I'm worried about my interests and if she wants to be a committed relationship with me or not.

Right now she has not respected me and if I don't see a massive switch of mindset then pulling plug on the whole thing.

Too much at stake personally to take risk and her boundaries are just way too low. I know she will complain saying she's never gone out 1:1 with someone but I just feel in my gut this issue will pop up in future. 

If we do survive this issue, there will absolutely be a fidelity clause in the pre-nup


----------



## Marduk

If you want to know how she really feels, go do what she does.

If she's quality, one of two things will happen.

If she doesn't freak out, and encourages you to be friends and be happy with women, then maybe she's on the up and up. This is probably low probability, but it's possible, I guess. I've seen some folks be this way.

If she freaks out the right way -- by saying something like "look jdawg, I'm uncomfortable with you hanging out with other women 1:1 and I get now why it bothers you. Let's talk about boundaries again."

Those two are workable options.

Most likely though, she'll just pitch a fit, and demand that you don't do this, but she can.

Then you'll know. Because it will be classic narcissistic behaviour, or something that looks similar to that, and those folks just can't help but be themselves.

But do it quick. October approaches. Eyes open, man.


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk said:


> Don't worry.
> 
> I'm sure she's got about 67 other guy's place to crash at.
> 
> Totally on the couch because they're just friends of course.


I'll tell her that she can now use all her guy friends to support her in her new crisis since they are there for her.:rofl::rofl:

Still trying to work things out as she has complied and never done 1:1 but still not convinced the leopards spots are not just hidden.


----------



## TRy

jdawg2015 said:


> Her reply was, "you are trying to change me and control me and I don't like it."


 The next time that she says that "you are trying to change me and control me and I don't like it", you should tell her that actually it is the exact opposite as she is the one that is trying to "change and control" you into agreeing to relationship boundaries that you do not agree with, and that you do not like it. State that you are not trying change her. Tell her that all that you are doing is determining if she shares the same values as you prior to getting married, and that it is your right not to marry someone that does not share your views on marriage.


----------



## tripad

TRy said:


> The next time that she says that "you are trying to change me and control me and I don't like it", you should tell her that actually it is the exact opposite as she is the one that is trying to "change and control" you into agreeing to relationship boundaries that you do not agree with, and that you do not like it. State that you are not trying change her. Tell her that all that you are doing is determining if she shares the same values as you prior to getting married, and that it is your right not to marry someone that does not share your views on marriage.


:iagree:

I am just reaing the posts here , thinking for myself , going forward .

n this sure sounds like how my ex "control "me by "brainwashing" me .

He has a lot of time to do whatever he wants , sports n drink sessions , all friends and neighours know , while I work and handled home n kids .and yet he quarrels with me that I controlled him when I told him to help out more .

same for finances . he spends his money uncontrollably and gets into debt , which he begged me to bail , while I support the home food n kids . When I asked for more contribution and no more debts . He quarreled and said I am trying to control him . Even when the counsellor agrees when I said I am doing damage control , not control . 

No sense goes into his brain .

Lesson learnt - you cant change a person .

Lesson to remind myself going forward - it is either to find a person on the same page and value system or better to be single . otherwise , it is misery .

so back you .

obviously both of you have different value system.

don't know your divorce history and what lesson to take away from that . but mine is as above .


----------



## tripad

jdawg2015 said:


> Got a link to your story?
> 
> My fiance would lay a brick if I started "dating" women 1:1 as told her not my game if in a relationship so I would be laying trap for myself.
> 
> I've got a friend who is a super hotty here in Singapore that would love my attention. Really sucks to have to play games like this and if I have to do it as way to make a point then I'd rather just bail.
> 
> The more I realize it, she has and ego/self-esteem issue that makes her want to have her exes try and stay latched on even if they have no chance.
> 
> I passed on another woman when I started this relationship and hope it wasn't big mistake.
> 
> I'm clearly in love with my fiancé but I found in last two weeks I've started steeling myself to her BS.


you are a gentleman . to say that if you have to play games , you rather bail .

and I agree . no point stooping to someone's level and compromise your own beliefs and principles . you will have guilty that you cant live with . and things fail in future , you will be partly to be blame . no point .

:iagree:


----------



## tripad

your post shows that good men exist . thank god . I suppose men can say the reverse is true .

well , I am reading here as there's a single dad who seemed interested in me , a single mum , recently divorced . we are neighbours . I am apprenhensive , wondering if he could be dating other women as he has been divorced for 5 years and just want to have a casual relationship with me . he seemed like a nice dad /man whose wife cheated and I wonder if he will have trust issues . 

why do I say he's nice ? he's the single dad ard doing things with his kids and upon knowing my divorce , ask about my well being and gave advice regularly when I asked , asked me out and I said some other time later and he is still ard providing advice and encouragement when I asked and talking and smiling to me when we bumped into each other . for the past year n half . sweet .


----------



## alexm

happy as a clam said:


> You're not wrong. You're not irrational. You just view this issue differently than she does, and that is not likely to change.
> 
> You cannot MAKE someone see things the same way you do. You can present your thoughts and beliefs and hope they eventually see it your way, but there are no guarantees that they "really" do.
> 
> Personally, I think there is too much uncertainty surrounding this issue for you to be comfortable. If you marry her, I think it will be a recurring problem over and over. I would definitely postpone the wedding. And with your level of discomfort and distrust, I would probably end the relationship altogether.


I agree with all of this, except the ending the relationship part.

As is known around here, I had some issues with my wife's boundaries, and still do to a degree. That doesn't mean I don't trust her, or didn't, it was more just an annoyance.

The thing is, I believe I got through to her eventually. It took a lot of talking and discussion (not arguing). Once I got her to see how it affects our relationship, she understood. She did not view it that way before, and like many people, don't see the forest for the trees.

So the main issue with my wife was that she didn't shut down the attention of males (until it crossed lines, which it has more than once). From her standpoint, she was doing nothing other then being friendly, or simply receptive to compliments and over all male attention. In her mind, she had no intention of ever doing anything - which I believe was true.

What she wasn't seeing, was the view in which these men (or really, all men) were having. If you don't get the cold shoulder, or shut down, then the person doing the complimenting will make the assumption, right or wrong, that the recipient is willing or available, or the possibility at least exists.

Once she got past the fact that it had nothing really to do with whether I trust her or not, she started to hear my pov. It wasn't about whether I trusted her or not, it was about how others view not just my girlfriend/wife, but also the view of what our relationship is worth to her. It's not out of the ordinary to think a married woman who is flirty with male co-workers is not completely happy in her marriage, thus thinking that there's an "in" with her.

As that was not the case with her, this is what caused her to understand my pov, and things have been much much better since. (from what I can see, anyway, I'm putting my trust in her with this one).

So people can change and start to see things your way in terms of boundaries. It's not like I told her she can't speak to men at work ever again. These are not unreasonable boundaries, and are, in fact, quite basic imo. Yet there are those people out there who don't quite "get" the basic boundaries, for whatever reason. Having weak boundaries does not necessarily = cheating risk.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jdawg2015 said:


> I don't think she's looking but just wants to keep people nearby for support.
> 
> She's actually told me she fears any break-up etc out of insecurity.
> *We live together and she gave up her apartment to move into my place so if something were to happen between us she would have no where to go. *That's reasonable thought as everyone should look out for their interests.
> 
> More tomorrow.....


You said she makes a tidy salary on her own even if you do make more than she does........ so she won't be homeless.......


----------



## ILoveSparkles

Married but Happy said:


> I'm on her side, actually. Many people have opposite sex friends without ever crossing the ethical lines. You simply have very different views on this, and she has compromised as much as she's going to. Push her, and she will walk away. Trust her, and you may have a relationship worth keeping. If you don't trust her, then you should walk away.


She has crossed ethical lines in her marriage before divorce - sounds like a revenge affair which has to be weighing on the OPs mind.


----------



## NextTimeAround

OP, does your fiance have female friends? I fnot, do you know why not?


----------



## RespectWalk

jdawg2015 said:


> Yes the latter.
> 
> She cheated. Claimed husband neglected her as she cared for kids and had affair. They went to counseling and then divorced.


You're going to marry a cheater. If this is what you want then you have to mentally/emotionally prepare to be cheated on because it's going to happen. It's not an "if" but a "when." Cheaters repeat. All of them.


----------



## jdawg2015

alexm said:


> I agree with all of this, except the ending the relationship part.
> 
> As is known around here, I had some issues with my wife's boundaries, and still do to a degree. That doesn't mean I don't trust her, or didn't, it was more just an annoyance.
> 
> The thing is, I believe I got through to her eventually. It took a lot of talking and discussion (not arguing). Once I got her to see how it affects our relationship, she understood. She did not view it that way before, and like many people, don't see the forest for the trees.
> 
> So the main issue with my wife was that she didn't shut down the attention of males (until it crossed lines, which it has more than once). From her standpoint, she was doing nothing other then being friendly, or simply receptive to compliments and over all male attention. In her mind, she had no intention of ever doing anything - which I believe was true.
> 
> What she wasn't seeing, was the view in which these men (or really, all men) were having. If you don't get the cold shoulder, or shut down, then the person doing the complimenting will make the assumption, right or wrong, that the recipient is willing or available, or the possibility at least exists.
> 
> Once she got past the fact that it had nothing really to do with whether I trust her or not, she started to hear my pov. It wasn't about whether I trusted her or not, it was about how others view not just my girlfriend/wife, but also the view of what our relationship is worth to her. It's not out of the ordinary to think a married woman who is flirty with male co-workers is not completely happy in her marriage, thus thinking that there's an "in" with her.
> 
> As that was not the case with her, this is what caused her to understand my pov, and things have been much much better since. (from what I can see, anyway, I'm putting my trust in her with this one).
> 
> So people can change and start to see things your way in terms of boundaries. It's not like I told her she can't speak to men at work ever again. These are not unreasonable boundaries, and are, in fact, quite basic imo. Yet there are those people out there who don't quite "get" the basic boundaries, for whatever reason. Having weak boundaries does not necessarily = cheating risk.


This is exactly the state of things right now. In fact, there have been two guys I specifically stated must go. After discussion and understanding she realized I was not blowing smoke and said she's done with them as she said they not worth creating issues over.

One thing I did was asked her look from 3rd person. Imagine if she had friend complaining to her about a bf with female friends.

She has another guy friend who she's convinced he's just a friend. When we go to dinner with her friends if he's invited in the group he always checks her out. I told my fiance about it and she said "no way" he would do something like that. Next time I'm setting trap and will make it look like I'm texting but will record him. He can't resist so this is gonna be fun. She said if he does it she'll hammer him on spot and tell him never come around again. This will be easy but could be turning point to her seeing these so called friends can be slimy.

The only issue I have is it ticks me off she won't take my word for it.

Lot of progress on this topic in last two weeks. It's clear she values the relationship and I put my foot down and unwavering.


----------



## jdawg2015

RespectWalk said:


> You're going to marry a cheater. If this is what you want then you have to mentally/emotionally prepare to be cheated on because it's going to happen. It's not an "if" but a "when." Cheaters repeat. All of them.


I've specifically had this discussion with her. Definitely something that weighs on my mind.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> OP, does your fiance have female friends? I fnot, do you know why not?


She has a TON of female friends.


----------



## jdawg2015

Yes said:


> She has crossed ethical lines in her marriage before divorce - sounds like a revenge affair which has to be weighing on the OPs mind.


YUP. And I've talked this through with her.


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> She has another guy friend who she's convinced he's just a friend. When we go to dinner with her friends if he's invited in the group he always checks her out. I told my fiance about it and she said "no way" he would do something like that. Next time I'm setting trap and will make it look like I'm texting but will record him. He can't resist so this is gonna be fun. She said if he does it she'll hammer him on spot and tell him never come around again. This will be easy but could be turning point to her seeing these so called friends can be slimy.
> 
> The only issue I have is it ticks me off she won't take my word for it.


That's the toughest thing about this - that we're guys, and we KNOW guys and guy behaviour.

Now guys like me (and it sounds like you) don't make this a trust issue with our wives, which many people will say is naive, and I don't disagree.

However, when we point these things out to our wives, or voice our displeasure, it's almost always met with "you don't trust me?" - which is also easy to understand, but it's normally not the case.

As I said above, my issue is I don't particularly want other men thinking my wife is available, for a whole host of reasons, apart from the obvious.

My wife isn't "mine", she's not my property, she doesn't belong to me, yet this is often the way women will look at it when asked to respect boundaries, especially with women who have the personality of my wife - independent, strong, etc. "Don't tell me what to do" or "I can look after myself, I know what I'm doing".

The irony is that the only thing people get out of this is an ego boost. Of course my wife doesn't mind when guys are blatantly flirtatious with her, it makes her feel good. As I said, she has her limits to this, of course, and she once chewed out a co-worker in front of a few other people, with me 10 feet away, because he crossed a line right there. Hasn't spoken to him since. No idea what was said on either side, didn't ask, but got the story from a friend who was close by.

However, one issue I have always had with this, is that when in a committed relationship, we should only be seeking out this type of affirmation from each other. It's fine if it's unsolicited, from a stranger, or what have you, but when it becomes routine from somebody you see daily, then that's not okay. You're welcoming it, and perhaps even encouraging it, or at the very least, not doing anything to stop it.

Why some people enjoy this type of affirmation from people they know aren't available to is beyond me, but I guess they require a constant stream of it. This, of course, insults me, because it's basically saying "Mike, you DO make me feel good about myself, but it's not enough." When I put it that way to her, she appeared to get it.


----------



## jdawg2015

alexm said:


> That's the toughest thing about this - that we're guys, and we KNOW guys and guy behaviour.
> 
> Now guys like me (and it sounds like you) don't make this a trust issue with our wives, which many people will say is naive, and I don't disagree.
> 
> However, when we point these things out to our wives, or voice our displeasure, it's almost always met with "you don't trust me?" - which is also easy to understand, but it's normally not the case.
> 
> As I said above, my issue is I don't particularly want other men thinking my wife is available, for a whole host of reasons, apart from the obvious.
> 
> My wife isn't "mine", she's not my property, she doesn't belong to me, yet this is often the way women will look at it when asked to respect boundaries, especially with women who have the personality of my wife - independent, strong, etc. "Don't tell me what to do" or "I can look after myself, I know what I'm doing".
> 
> The irony is that the only thing people get out of this is an ego boost. Of course my wife doesn't mind when guys are blatantly flirtatious with her, it makes her feel good. As I said, she has her limits to this, of course, and she once chewed out a co-worker in front of a few other people, with me 10 feet away, because he crossed a line right there. Hasn't spoken to him since. No idea what was said on either side, didn't ask, but got the story from a friend who was close by.
> 
> However, one issue I have always had with this, is that when in a committed relationship, we should only be seeking out this type of affirmation from each other. It's fine if it's unsolicited, from a stranger, or what have you, but when it becomes routine from somebody you see daily, then that's not okay. You're welcoming it, and perhaps even encouraging it, or at the very least, not doing anything to stop it.
> 
> Why some people enjoy this type of affirmation from people they know aren't available to is beyond me, but I guess they require a constant stream of it. This, of course, insults me, because it's basically saying "Mike, you DO make me feel good about myself, but it's not enough." When I put it that way to her, she appeared to get it.


My issue is my fiance was single for 12 years after her divorce. Clearly she doesn't see some of these guys for what they are. One by one they keep crossing a line with a cheeky text etc that she knows if going to create problems.

Like your case, I have found that she doesn't see the issue the same way I do. That's been improving. 

Another issue she has is when a guy crosses a line (guy sent text she showed me) she just stopped replying to anything he sent rather than actively tell the guy he went to far. 

Something I have to watch and observe over time.


----------



## NextTimeAround

OP, having had one failed marriage on my record and on my second marriage, my feeling is that life is easier when you choose someone who already has the same values as you do.

Granted, what brought me TAM was that, during our courtship, my husband had an inappropriate friendship. I finally dealt with the issue head on. His response was immediate, ie "I'll get rid of her." And so he did.

3 years later we got married. He had asked me earlier but maybe I was looking to see how serious he was to saying good bye to that "cool relationship invention" that we have these days, that is, the Opposite Sex Friend.

If your fiance must carry this on, that is, the constant messaging; the (semi) public FB (or otherwise) posts to this person; and the date like situations that they regularly agree to.......

as I explained on another post at TAM, I do know that my (future) husband got his arm twisted to pay a 3 figure bar tab. Well, when he decided to finally get the boyfriend treatment (it's only fair right) and went in for the open mouth kiss, she rejected him and that's when he knew it wasn't going to get better than that. 

Is your fiance playing the girlfriend role when she goes out with these guys? Do you think that some of these "friends" have tried to get the boyfriend treatment back? Or may try real soon.

well, the more you moan and whine about it, the more unattractive that you become.

If my (future) husband had not dropped her completely, I would have started dating other men. As I said to him, I be like his good friend, that is, keep him as just a friend while I find a rela boyfriend somewhere else. Maybe my husband quickly looked into the abyss, and realised how lonely that would be.

OP, you could try the same. let her know that if she needs to keep these male friends on board, then you and she could be just friends and you could also go dating around to find a girlfriend. 

You do know, that M urdoch dropped his third wife Wendy D eng because of her "inappropriate" relationships with men (one of them Tony B lair)


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> My issue is my fiance was single for 12 years after her divorce. Clearly she doesn't see some of these guys for what they are. One by one they keep crossing a line with a cheeky text etc that she knows if going to create problems.
> 
> Like your case, I have found that she doesn't see the issue the same way I do. That's been improving.
> 
> Another issue she has is when a guy crosses a line (guy sent text she showed me) she just stopped replying to anything he sent rather than actively tell the guy he went to far.
> 
> Something I have to watch and observe over time.


Sometimes you have to give them a pass, though, and get through it. Things can change.

My view is that some people lose sight of what it's like to be in a relationship, or simply have never known. Sounds like your wife spent an awful lot of time "single" (in which the boundaries are FAR less important), and it's been difficult to get into the swing of things again.

My wife had spent the bulk of her adult life single, and/or dating. A couple of relationships that lasted ~3 years, and a whole lot of short ones, casual ones, as well as being on her own completely for long stretches. Couple that with being literally the only woman in a workplace full of men for a good 15+ years, and it's easy to see how her boundaries had either never been formed, or severely loosened.

Not to mention her last LTR before me was with a man who tried to be somewhat controlling of her. Same issues I had with her workplace behaviour, yet did not at all take the same tactful approach I did. Ended up with him accusing her of cheating, checking up on her at work several times a day, the whole nine. They ended a ~3 year relationship almost solely based on this alone. He saw boundary issues. She saw controlling behaviour. Neither ceded to the other, relationship over. Unfortunately it carried over into the beginning of our relationship, yet I didn't take the same route her ex did.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> Is your fiance playing the girlfriend role when she goes out with these guys? Do you think that some of these "friends" have tried to get the boyfriend treatment back? Or may try real soon.
> 
> well, the more you moan and whine about it, the more unattractive that you become.
> 
> If my (future) husband had not dropped her completely, I would have started dating other men. As I said to him, I be like his good friend, that is, keep him as just a friend while I find a rela boyfriend somewhere else. Maybe my husband quickly looked into the abyss, and realised how lonely that would be.
> 
> OP, you could try the same. let her know that if she needs to keep these male friends on board, then you and she could be just friends and you could also go dating around to find a girlfriend.
> 
> You do know, that M urdoch dropped his third wife Wendy D eng because of her "inappropriate" relationships with men (one of them Tony B lair)


No, she's not playing the girlfriend thing. The key issue is she has some guy friends who she clearly has no interest in them but she doesn't see them for what they are. 

So, I laid down my boundaries. She said I was being harsh about it but I said we have to clear this up now so it doesn't keep comimg up.

I know I won't change my values on this so working through it and if not satisfied with response then I will deal with it accordingly, no matter how painful.

She knows my stance and it appears she is very slowly understanding of my view/values. We have a ways to go.

My eyes and ears are wide open.


----------



## jdawg2015

alexm said:


> Sometimes you have to give them a pass, though, and get through it. Things can change.
> 
> My view is that some people lose sight of what it's like to be in a relationship, or simply have never known. Sounds like your wife spent an awful lot of time "single" (in which the boundaries are FAR less important), and it's been difficult to get into the swing of things again.
> 
> My wife had spent the bulk of her adult life single, and/or dating. A couple of relationships that lasted ~3 years, and a whole lot of short ones, casual ones, as well as being on her own completely for long stretches. Couple that with being literally the only woman in a workplace full of men for a good 15+ years, and it's easy to see how her boundaries had either never been formed, or severely loosened.
> 
> Not to mention her last LTR before me was with a man who tried to be somewhat controlling of her. Same issues I had with her workplace behaviour, yet did not at all take the same tactful approach I did. Ended up with him accusing her of cheating, checking up on her at work several times a day, the whole nine. They ended a ~3 year relationship almost solely based on this alone. He saw boundary issues. She saw controlling behaviour. Neither ceded to the other, relationship over. Unfortunately it carried over into the beginning of our relationship, yet I didn't take the same route her ex did.


Curious if you brought up the fact that you are not the first guy to see her boundaries as an issue. That's a pattern. Do it in a subtle way.

I'm struggling with the fact that seems like a lot of work to have to work through such an item for someone willing to marry me. I would have "thought" it would be automatic.

For me, going into alpha mode has worked considerably.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

I'm confused. I thought her position was it was fine to let other men buy her dinner when you were out of town. 

There's only one way to do a reset when a relationship becomes that devoid of respect. 

If she's still fighting you on this - post marriage she's going to say: she never agreed - you are controlling .... Etc. 

The only way to do a reset is to nicely tell her you accept that you two are incompatible. Do it just before you go somewhere and screen her calls for a few days. 

She's sort of screwing with you on this: 
- these men aren't important to me
- stop trying to get me to give them up

The unspoken message is: you are going to be MY husband, but I'm not fully going to be your wife....




QUOTE=jdawg2015;12142466]No, she's not playing the girlfriend thing. The key issue is she has some guy friends who she clearly has no interest in them but she doesn't see them for what they are. 

So, I laid down my boundaries. She said I was being harsh about it but I said we have to clear this up now so it doesn't keep comimg up.

I know I won't change my values on this so working through it and if not satisfied with response then I will deal with it accordingly, no matter how painful.

She knows my stance and it appears she is very slowly understanding of my view/values. We have a ways to go.

My eyes and ears are wide open.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> I'm confused. I thought her position was it was fine to let other men buy her dinner when you were out of town.
> 
> There's only one way to do a reset when a relationship becomes that devoid of respect.
> 
> If she's still fighting you on this - post marriage she's going to say: she never agreed - you are controlling .... Etc.
> 
> The only way to do a reset is to nicely tell her you accept that you two are incompatible. Do it just before you go somewhere and screen her calls for a few days.
> 
> She's sort of screwing with you on this:
> - these men aren't important to me
> - stop trying to get me to give them up
> 
> The unspoken message is: you are going to be MY husband, but I'm not fully going to be your wife....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=jdawg2015;12142466]No, she's not playing the girlfriend thing. The key issue is she has some guy friends who she clearly has no interest in them but she doesn't see them for what they are.
> 
> So, I laid down my boundaries. She said I was being harsh about it but I said we have to clear this up now so it doesn't keep comimg up.
> 
> I know I won't change my values on this so working through it and if not satisfied with response then I will deal with it accordingly, no matter how painful.
> 
> She knows my stance and it appears she is very slowly understanding of my view/values. We have a ways to go.
> 
> My eyes and ears are wide open.


[/QUOTE]

No, we have flat out agreed no 1:1

And yes, in a couple cases she's doing what you say. Not important to me but yet wants to act like I'm being too sensitive to the topic.

She knows gig is up.


----------



## MEM2020

JD,

Your a smart guy - so you will understand this concept.

The subtext of all these arguments is the same:

You're trying to sell her on a very important theme. The theme is this: I'm a good enough partner that you should make an effort to treat me well. Treat me fairly. Treat me the way I treat you. 

But it isn't working. 

Stop - trying - to - sell - HER

And stop giving her the fiancée treatment. She's not cleared the bar yet. Stop talking about the future. Stop responding when she does. 

It's time for her to SHOW you she has good values. 

This isn't about right or wrong. She KNOWS what's right or wrong. This is about what she can get away with. 



No, we have flat out agreed no 1:1

And yes, in a couple cases she's doing what you say. Not important to me but yet wants to act like I'm being too sensitive to the topic.

She knows gig is up.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Bobby5000

There's a whole lot of negative stuff and you two don't seem on the same page. I'll add that she may get a little kick out of your jealousy but that may wear thin. From your post, it's hard to see the positive for either of you. Doesn't seem like marriage material for either of you. Since talking about these things has just solidified each of your respective positions, one wonders whether this is a deal-breaker for both of you.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bobby5000 said:


> There's a whole lot of negative stuff and you two don't seem on the same page. I'll add that she may get a little kick out of your jealousy but that may wear thin. From your post, it's hard to see the positive for either of you. Doesn't seem like marriage material for either of you. Since talking about these things has just solidified each of your respective positions, one wonders whether this is a deal-breaker for both of you.


Yep, and that's why we've discussed it. We get there in increments.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> JD,
> 
> Your a smart guy - so you will understand this concept.
> 
> The subtext of all these arguments is the same:
> 
> You're trying to sell her on a very important theme. The theme is this: I'm a good enough partner that you should make an effort to treat me well. Treat me fairly. Treat me the way I treat you.
> 
> But it isn't working.
> 
> Stop - trying - to - sell - HER
> 
> And stop giving her the fiancée treatment. She's not cleared the bar yet. Stop talking about the future. Stop responding when she does.
> 
> It's time for her to SHOW you she has good values.
> 
> This isn't about right or wrong. She KNOWS what's right or wrong. This is about what she can get away with.
> 
> No, we have flat out agreed no 1:1
> 
> And yes, in a couple cases she's doing what you say. Not important to me but yet wants to act like I'm being too sensitive to the topic.
> 
> She knows gig is up.


[/QUOTE]

This is basically what I've been doing and I don't like the response and I tell her as such. The typical response is to get a tiny bit defensive and then state she understands.


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> Curious if you brought up the fact that you are not the first guy to see her boundaries as an issue. That's a pattern. Do it in a subtle way.
> 
> I'm struggling with the fact that seems like a lot of work to have to work through such an item for someone willing to marry me. I would have "thought" it would be automatic.
> 
> For me, going into alpha mode has worked considerably.


Yes, I sure did, and it wasn't very subtle. It took me a long time to pull that one out of the hat, as I knew it could be a bone of contention for her. It took her about 2 minutes to get past the fact that I brought up a previous relationship with her (usually a no-no in marriage), but when she did, I painted a clear picture of how one man dealt with the same situation vs how I am dealing with it, and she respected that.

She knows I trust her and that I don't think she's a risk, which is true. She knows that my ex wife cheated on me, therefore that when I tell her I DO trust her, that's huge. I told her that with my ex wife, I had blind trust, and that I didn't see the very very obvious signs until afterwards. That I didn't set any boundaries in my previous marriage (very true), and that I felt it was important that our relationship/marriage be cared for appropriately. That it had nothing to do with trust issues (also true), but how this relationship is perceived by her, as well as outsiders.

This is important. Allowing these men to speak to her in the way they did/do gives them the impression that she is available, whether true or not. This reflects poorly on her, her relationship, and me. This has been the main sticking point for me. Not to establish with others that she is "mine", but that it's necessary to prove to me that I'm important. Because frankly, it's difficult to feel important to someone when they're actively, or even passively, seeking out attention from others - attention that should only every be provided by each person to the other.

I also told her that it emasculates me, which it does. I have met several of these men over the years, and although I am not particularly concerned with how they see me personally, I AM concerned with how they perceive me as a man. It's normal and natural for men to have pissing contests over just about anything, never mind women. I hate the fact that some of these guys very likely got the impression that my wife requires more attention in her life than I can provide.

Say what you will, but it has been apparently effective. Certainly moreso than had I gone into jealous rages, yelled at her, called her names, accused her of things, etc.

In my experience, and this may not reflect everybody else's wives out there, mine appears to simply have never thought about it quite that way. Boundaries are learned early in life, and also through trial and error. If nobody ever tells you that this or that is inappropriate behaviour, that person will never learn. Same if every time somebody does, it's done in a negative way. Most people don't respond well to negative reinforcement.

Now that said, it goes without saying: not everybody is like my wife. I lucked out in that she seemed to genuinely not "get it" until I put it in a way that she understood. I honestly believe that her behaviour was borne out of naiveté, a general "FU, I can look after myself" attitude, stubborness, and a little bit of self-esteem boosting thrown in the mix. My wife has a lot of issues (which is why I'm here), but faithfulness isn't one of them, I don't believe. I don't CHOOSE to believe, I just don't see it, despite the outward red flags.

Of course, the possibility always exists that's she's been playing me for 6 years, and -I'm- the naive one, but honestly - whatever. I sincerely don't think so.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> She's sort of screwing with you on this:
> - these men aren't important to me
> - stop trying to get me to give them up


This was my husband as well. OTOH, he would say he didn't like her all that much. but in the other, he had done things for her that he had withheld from me....... like pay bar tabs and taxi fare. 

She did ask him for legal advice and fortunately, he did what most lawyers, say "that's not my area." By the time I found that out, I had asked him for legal advice as well, and he told me the same thing. So at least, we're even there.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> This was my husband as well. OTOH, he would say he didn't like her all that much. but in the other, he had done things for her that he had withheld from me....... like pay bar tabs and taxi fare.
> 
> She did ask him for legal advice and fortunately, he did what most lawyers, say "that's not my area." By the time I found that out, I had asked him for legal advice as well, and he told me the same thing. So at least, we're even there.


In my case this really sucks because outside of this issue we match very well. And I'm picky.

This stuff kinda popped up as things went along. She thinks I'm just too sensitive too it. Already shown her issue with a guy she thought was a friend that I think was big wake up call. 

She knows she has bascially no rope left.


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> In my case this really sucks because outside of this issue we match very well. And I'm picky.
> 
> This stuff kinda popped up as things went along. She thinks I'm just too sensitive too it. Already shown her issue with a guy she thought was a friend that I think was big wake up call.
> 
> She knows she has bascially no rope left.


It sounds like you're lucky as well. Even though guys like us wind up in places like this, it bears repeating: this type of behaviour from a spouse is not always a harbinger of things to come, nor is it necessarily reflective upon the marriage.

What it IS reflective upon is lack of boundaries or recognition of inappropriate behaviour, but not in a way that is obvious, if that makes sense.

I would venture a guess and say that 30-40% of these incidents are NOT the spouse looking for a little extra on the side (whether that be as little as flirtation or as much as an affair).

From your description, it does not appear that your wife is looking for something extra on the side, nor was mine. Perhaps it's just awkwardness in dealing with situations, therefore she doesn't quite know how to shut it down. Maybe she doesn't want to rock the boat or insult somebody. Maybe she isn't convinced that A+B=C. And yes, maybe she doesn't mind the fact that a few guys show interest in her from time to time.

The thing with that last one is that they (your wife, my wife, etc.) DON'T have any interest in going outside the marriage, not even a fleeting thought of it. To them, Joe Blow is obviously interested, but because she is not, nor ever would be, then she is not doing anything wrong or harmful to the marriage. On the flip side, she enjoys the attention for what she perceives it to be - harmless, in her eyes. To her, it doesn't matter whether the other person is male or female, somebody is paying attention to her in one way or another.

I believe this is how my wife had seen things. Like I said, when things crossed clear lines, that's when she spoke up, and good on her. However, imo, she set herself up to open that door for a few of those guys. To her, for example, having a guy greet her with "Hey beautiful" is the same as her calling everybody "honey" (which she does, she's one of those women, lol).

It's worth mentioning that my wife is a low-libido, possibly asexual woman (her words). She enjoys sex physically, but has no real need for it, and she maintains she never has. If I didn't initiate sex with her, or make a point of letting her know that it's important to me, it'd never happen, and she'd probably be just fine with that. It's just not part of her consciousness or day-to-day life. I made the comparison here a while ago that sex to her is like playing darts to me. I don't hate playing darts, and I would if somebody asked me to (and maybe even have a good time), but I certainly never think about it and wouldn't miss it if I never played again in my life.

If everybody I was around played darts 2, 3, 4 times a week, it still wouldn't register in my brain that it's something that people would want to do with me, if that makes sense. I believe my wife's thinking is along those lines, and she doesn't always see that men are hinting, testing the waters, or fishing with her. It's naive, yes, but when something (like sex) is never on one's mind, it's not difficult to miss the things that are clearly obvious to most of us.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Why do people play games? Bigger question is why do people allow themselves to be played with? My advice is to stop playing the game.


----------



## alexm

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Why do people play games? Bigger question is why do people allow themselves to be played with? My advice is to stop playing the game.


Because sometimes it's fixable. Sometimes the person playing the game doesn't realize they're doing so. Sometimes all they need is a kick in the butt to see the light. Sometimes they need the right partner who trusts them, because they're playing these games as a result of not thinking they're worth much to anybody. Who knows.

Not every games player is doing so on purpose.


----------



## cons

I met my husband in an activities group. I had recently divorced and was looking to make some new friendships. 
When I first attended the activities, I was asked out frequently (turning them down because I was still licking my wounds). My husband and I became friends and eventually began dating. We'd attend group activities (as a couple) but often there would be men that didn't have very good boundaries.

Since it had been so many years since I was in the dating world...I was not aware nor was I prepared in establishing honoring boundaries. 

jdawg- my husband has very similar issues with me that you have with your wife. 

At first I would argue with him, thinking that people (men) were just friendly...I mean, I knew myself and what boundaries I had...

...but my husband was consistent in reflecting what he saw in how men would interact. Often engaging only me in conversation (not us as a couple). It took a few of these moments for me to SEE...

So we agreed that "friends" constitute those who are friends of the coupleship first. 

I have to say I am so blessed to have my husband to drive this into me to continue to reflect to me his needs...not THAT is love...

....keep speaking into your wife...this tells her how important she is to you...


Best wishes


----------



## WonkyNinja

alexm said:


> What she wasn't seeing, was the view in which these men (or really, all men) were having. If you don't get the cold shoulder, or shut down, then the person doing the complimenting will make the assumption, right or wrong, that the recipient is willing or available, or the possibility at least exists.


I think that's a huge sweeping assumption to say that all men think that a woman is willing or available just because she doesn't give them the cold shoulder.



> It's not out of the ordinary to think a married woman who is flirty with male co-workers is not completely happy in her marriage, thus thinking that there's an "in" with her.


Personally I think that is extremely out of the ordinary. I'd see it as she is well adjusted that she can be happy in her marital relationship and in other relationships. 

It is a similar situation to homophobes being unable to work and/or get on with gays because they are not secure enough in their own sexuality.

I must live on a different planet to many of the members on this board.


----------



## WonkyNinja

RespectWalk said:


> You're going to marry a cheater. If this is what you want then you have to mentally/emotionally prepare to be cheated on because it's going to happen. It's not an "if" but a "when." Cheaters repeat. All of them.


Of course they will, they are all the same aren't they?


----------



## Nucking Futs

WonkyNinja said:


> I think that's a huge sweeping assumption to say that all men think that a woman is willing or available just because she doesn't give them the cold shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I think that is extremely out of the ordinary. I'd see it as she is well adjusted that she can be happy in her marital relationship and in other relationships.
> 
> It is a similar situation to homophobes being unable to work and/or get on with gays because they are not secure enough in their own sexuality.
> 
> I must live on a different planet to many of the members on this board.


It's not so much that you live on another planet as that you don't really understand men. Don't over complicate things. If a woman smiles at a man, he thinks he's got a shot.

Cashier at the supermarket after handing me my change: "Have a nice day!" Obviously she wants it.


----------



## alexm

WonkyNinja said:


> I think that's a huge sweeping assumption to say that all men think that a woman is willing or available just because she doesn't give them the cold shoulder.


*And it's a huge sweeping assumption for many people to assume because somebody (man or woman) doesn't have boundaries must mean they're not worthy of your love.

Frankly, it IS true, whether you see it that way or not. Maybe not in day-to-day life (like at the grocery store, or just walking down the street) but at work, absolutely.

You work with Steve or Sally every day. One day, you comment on something they're wearing, or their hair, or that they smell good. They:

a) mumble "thanks", and change the subject
b) say "thank you, my boyfriend bought me this skirt"
c) smile broadly and giggle/blush/act embarrassed

Now which of those would make you feel like your attraction is reciprocal?

The fact is, not all people who use "c" feel any sort of attraction to the person, however it certainly APPEARS that way. Maybe they don't realize how their response is perceived, or, as I mentioned previously, the sheer fact that they absolutely have not even thought about that person in that way, they don't even think twice about their response.

But yes, a person's response to even innocuous comments can, and often are, taken as reciprocal interest.*




WonkyNinja said:


> Personally I think that is extremely out of the ordinary. I'd see it as she is well adjusted that she can be happy in her marital relationship and in other relationships.
> 
> It is a similar situation to homophobes being unable to work and/or get on with gays because they are not secure enough in their own sexuality.
> 
> I must live on a different planet to many of the members on this board.


*Nor out of the ordinary at all, for those men (and women) who don't care if you're attached or not, and pursue people they're attracted to. It starts out with a little fishing - easily deniable comments, such as "you look nice today" or "your husband sure is a lucky man". If the response is negative, it's easy to apologize, say you didn't mean it "that way" and that you were just being nice. Move on. But if Sally giggles and says "Oh, you!" then the pursuer has an open door. It's simple PUA tactics that we all know. They then move up the ladder in terms of pushing limits and boundaries, to see how far they can go, until...

As I said, my wife's previous limits were when things started to become sexual in nature, or particularly blatant. The guy who suggested she wear a white shirt and have a wet t-shirt contest, for example. A co-worker said this to her, in regards to what she should wear to our wedding fundraiser. He was too dumb to get it, and made ANOTHER comment AT our party, at which point my wife tore a strip off him right then and there, in front of several people.

Yet the fact remained, and this was hammered home to her (not by me) that she, in essence, never nipped this one in the bud and allowed this guy to keep going up the ladder.

Well adjusted, to me, does not mean thinking it's okay to get regular comments from opposite sex co-workers/"friends" while you have a partner at home.*


----------



## alexm

Nucking Futs said:


> It's not so much that you live on another planet as that you don't really understand men. Don't over complicate things. If a woman smiles at a man, he thinks he's got a shot.
> 
> Cashier at the supermarket after handing me my change: "Have a nice day!" Obviously she wants it.


That's an over-exaggeration, obviously.

I'm talking about the specifics of this thread, so please don't turn it into something it's not.

OF COURSE a guy (OR a woman!) will think the person they are complimenting (on purpose) has some interest in them if they respond positively. See my examples in the reply above.

THIS is what we're talking about, not day-to-day life or at the grocery store.

FYI, "Have a nice day" is something co-workers say to each other. "You look great in that skirt" is not. And yes, the response to the latter question determines whether or not the person who said it has a chance. 

How did any of you meet your wives or husbands without using flattery and compliments, and determining - from the response - if he/she was interested back???


----------



## jdawg2015

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Why do people play games? Bigger question is why do people allow themselves to be played with? My advice is to stop playing the game.


Already did. Drew a line in the sand couple weeks back. Got results but still have some issues to sort through


----------



## jdawg2015

cons said:


> I met my husband in an activities group. I had recently divorced and was looking to make some new friendships.
> When I first attended the activities, I was asked out frequently (turning them down because I was still licking my wounds). My husband and I became friends and eventually began dating. We'd attend group activities (as a couple) but often there would be men that didn't have very good boundaries.
> 
> Since it had been so many years since I was in the dating world...I was not aware nor was I prepared in establishing honoring boundaries.
> 
> jdawg- my husband has very similar issues with me that you have with your wife.
> 
> At first I would argue with him, thinking that people (men) were just friendly...I mean, I knew myself and what boundaries I had...
> 
> ...but my husband was consistent in reflecting what he saw in how men would interact. Often engaging only me in conversation (not us as a couple). It took a few of these moments for me to SEE...
> 
> So we agreed that "friends" constitute those who are friends of the coupleship first.
> 
> I have to say I am so blessed to have my husband to drive this into me to continue to reflect to me his needs...not THAT is love...
> 
> ....keep speaking into your wife...this tells her how important she is to you...
> 
> 
> Best wishes


Cons, is there any particular point your husband made that hit home more than others?

You've pretty much nailed the point both Alex and I are making to our ladies.


----------



## jdawg2015

WonkyNinja said:


> I think that's a huge sweeping assumption to say that all men think that a woman is willing or available just because she doesn't give them the cold shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I think that is extremely out of the ordinary. I'd see it as she is well adjusted that she can be happy in her marital relationship and in other relationships.
> 
> It is a similar situation to homophobes being unable to work and/or get on with gays because they are not secure enough in their own sexuality.
> 
> I must live on a different planet to many of the members on this board.


The homophobe comment is a strawman argument and not even close to the same issue.

In the office, overt compliements are always a red flag IMO. I've got some VERY attractive women in my office, some married, some with bf's, some single.

Out of respect for them I would not cross the line but many guys do. And yes, most guys are prowling. 

If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting.


----------



## WonkyNinja

alexm said:


> And it's a huge sweeping assumption for many people to assume because somebody (man or woman) doesn't have boundaries must mean they're not worthy of your love.






> Frankly, it IS true, whether you see it that way or not. Maybe not in day-to-day life (like at the grocery store, or just walking down the street) but at work, absolutely.


Do you watch Fox news? Just because you personally think something doesn't extend that thought to everybody, nor make it a fact.



> You work with Steve or Sally every day. One day, you comment on something they're wearing, or their hair, or that they smell good. They:
> 
> a) mumble "thanks", and change the subject
> b) say "thank you, my boyfriend bought me this skirt"
> c) smile broadly and giggle/blush/act embarrassed
> 
> Now which of those would make you feel like your attraction is reciprocal?


Well my thoughts to those answers would be:

a) they are either rude or shy and I'd make a mental note not to talk anything outside of necessary work.
b) Be pleased for them that their boyfriend knew their dress style.
c) make sure that I was really at my place of work and hadn't entered a 7th grade classroom by mistake.

None of them would have me thinking I could be getting lucky and need to make sure that the stationary cupboard was unlocked and available. 



> The fact is, not all people who use "c" feel any sort of attraction to the person, however it certainly APPEARS that way. Maybe they don't realize how their response is perceived, or, as I mentioned previously, the sheer fact that they absolutely have not even thought about that person in that way, they don't even think twice about their response.
> 
> But yes, a person's response to even innocuous comments can, and often are, taken as reciprocal interest.


I think you mean can possibly be misconstrued as reciprocal interest. This is assuming that it isn't possible to compliment someone without having an ulterior motive behind it.



> Nor out of the ordinary at all, for those men (and women) who don't care if you're attached or not, and pursue people they're attracted to. It starts out with a little fishing - easily deniable comments, such as "you look nice today" or "your husband sure is a lucky man". If the response is negative, it's easy to apologize, say you didn't mean it "that way" and that you were just being nice. Move on. But if Sally giggles and says "Oh, you!" then the pursuer has an open door. It's simple PUA tactics that we all know. They then move up the ladder in terms of pushing limits and boundaries, to see how far they can go, until...


..... they get a smack around the face and reported for creating a sexually hostile workplace.



> As I said, my wife's previous limits were when things started to become sexual in nature, or particularly blatant. The guy who suggested she wear a white shirt and have a wet t-shirt contest, for example. A co-worker said this to her, in regards to what she should wear to our wedding fundraiser. He was too dumb to get it, and made ANOTHER comment AT our party, at which point my wife tore a strip off him right then and there, in front of several people.


So your wife is capable of putting an idiot in his place? Good for her, you really should trust her judgement and abilities to handle herself. 

I'm sorry for her that she had to.



> Yet the fact remained, and this was hammered home to her (not by me) that she, in essence, never nipped this one in the bud and allowed this guy to keep going up the ladder.
> 
> Well adjusted, to me, does not mean thinking it's okay to get regular comments from opposite sex co-workers/"friends" while you have a partner at home.


I agree. She learned her lesson that it went on too long and next time will probably take the correct action earlier, she's proven to you that she can and will.


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> The homophobe comment is a strawman argument and not even close to the same issue.
> 
> In the office, overt compliements are always a red flag IMO. I've got some VERY attractive women in my office, some married, some with bf's, some single.
> 
> Out of respect for them I would not cross the line but many guys do. And yes, most guys are prowling.
> 
> If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting.


Then I'm sorry for you. You must be a really shallow individual. Maybe one who is incapable of handing OSFs is you and not her? It seems like she should be setting the boundaries.


----------



## jdawg2015

WonkyNinja said:


> Then I'm sorry for you. You must be a really shallow individual. Maybe one who is incapable of handing OSFs is you and not her? It seems like she should be setting the boundaries.


One thing about me. Don't be condescending, etc. This is IMO place to be candid. We can agree to disagree and even emphasize our points freely.

However, you should read what I wrote. I don't throw comments towards other women even though I get comments from them frequently.

If you want to make it personal vs open dialogue then count me out. I'm open to all view points even those I don't agree with.

I've been around more than enough to know how things work with compliments and members of the opposite sex.

I had a 20+ year marriage where fidelity was never an issue from either side. We broke for reasons way different than that. So I have a lot of history to stand on as well. Food for thought.


----------



## turnera

"Babe, I'm crazy about you, but I don't NEED you. And if this subject comes up one more time, I'm done. It's up to you to decide to let your male 'friends' know to back off ahead of time...or be let out of my life forever. I won't accept another incident."


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> One thing about me. Don't be condescending, etc. This is IMO place to be candid. We can agree to disagree and even emphasize our points freely.
> 
> However, you should read what I wrote. I don't throw comments towards other women even though I get comments from them frequently.
> 
> If you want to make it personal vs open dialogue then count me out. I'm open to all view points even those I don't agree with.
> 
> I've been around more than enough to know how things work with compliments and members of the opposite sex.
> 
> I had a 20+ year marriage where fidelity was never an issue from either side. We broke for reasons way different than that. So I have a lot of history to stand on as well. Food for thought.


My apologies for sounding condescending but you wrote:

<B>"If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting."</B>

I struggle to believe that most people cannot compliment a member of the opposite sex without there being misinterpretation or an ulterior motive. 

Maybe it's just me but I have grown up with female friends and still have many. Any partner telling me who I could and could not have as friends would be an immediate deal breaker. But that is just me I would see that as a form of control. 

I have OSF friends and my girlfriend (LDR) has met, and is friends with, some of them. She has many male friends some of whom I've met and some I haven't. 

I would be concerned if there were friends she didn't want me to meet. If the relationship is serious I would think both parties would want their friends to meet. If that is your situation then I've misread this thread and your situation is very different.


----------



## jdawg2015

WonkyNinja said:


> My apologies for sounding condescending but you wrote:
> 
> <B>"If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting."</B>
> 
> I struggle to believe that most people cannot compliment a member of the opposite sex without there being misinterpretation or an ulterior motive.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I have grown up with female friends and still have many. Any partner telling me who I could and could not have as friends would be an immediate deal breaker. But that is just me I would see that as a form of control.
> 
> I have OSF friends and my girlfriend (LDR) has met, and is friends with, some of them. She has many male friends some of whom I've met and some I haven't.
> 
> I would be concerned if there were friends she didn't want me to meet. If the relationship is serious I would think both parties would want their friends to meet. If that is your situation then I've misread this thread and your situation is very different.


My view is that once in a true committed relationship, OSF get put in group activities only. 

My fiance has a woman who she told me is "out of here". And I clearly knew why, even though nothing was going on, why she felt that way and she's history. I had the same issue with three of the guys in her group circle. I have met the vast majority of the guys who would come around. A few have moved out of the country we live so not possible to meet them. 

Just meeting them doesn't count as free pass. One guy was so obvious in his interest that immediately after that outing I told her that I had major issues with him. Not one doubt in my mind and don't have any regret telling her to dump him.

Think about this. You work 50+ hours a week plus commute time, etc. Sleep, shower, etc for 9+ hours a day.
Add in hobbies, gym, errands, grocery shopping, house chores, etc and look how much time you actually have to spend together as true quality time.

This is why spouses who do lots of things TOGETHER is what tends to be some of the better relationships that I have seen personally among all my married friends.

So, when your spouse decides frequent outings with an OSF is ok there can quickly be misunderstandings as even 1 hour a week becomes a big percentage of the truly available quality time. 

A spouse eating lunch with a coworker every day for the whole lunch hour can easily be as much quality time per work day as their actual spouse. Think about that.

My fiance is coming around to understand my feelings about this topic. I had to up the pressure to make sure she understood I was absolutely serious.

Not about control or jealousy in the least.


----------



## jdawg2015

turnera said:


> "Babe, I'm crazy about you, but I don't NEED you. And if this subject comes up one more time, I'm done. It's up to you to decide to let your male 'friends' know to back off ahead of time...or be let out of my life forever. I won't accept another incident."


Almost exectly how I've begun dealing with this but have found timing is key.


----------



## Decorum

WonkyNinja said:


> Then I'm sorry for you. You must be a really shallow individual. Maybe one who is incapable of handing OSFs is you and not her? It seems like she should be setting the boundaries.


He is in enough pain already.

Context is important, it requires discernment not bias.


----------



## ConanHub

WonkyNinja said:


> Then I'm sorry for you. You must be a really shallow individual. Maybe one who is incapable of handing OSFs is you and not her? It seems like she should be setting the boundaries.


You and I are from different worlds and how long have you been married? You might be successful in a relationship or is this theory?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

I don't think this marriage is a good idea. You sound almost identical to how I am wired except your fiance would not have made it this far with me.

She doesn't have what it takes to be your wife IMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jdawg2015

ConanHub said:


> I don't think this marriage is a good idea. You sound almost identical to how I am wired except your fiance would not have made it this far with me.
> 
> She doesn't have what it takes to be your wife IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Care to elaborate?

Open to all suggestions and views.

I think she's been single long time and plays huge part of this.


----------



## ConanHub

jdawg2015 said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> Open to all suggestions and views.
> 
> I think she's been single long time and plays huge part of this.


I lose interest in women that don't share similar views on protecting a relationship. She is either so ignorant it is dangerous or just doesn't give a flying fig about giving her time to men who are toxic to her marriage. Her POV will be disastrous to your marriage. Maybe she wants a more beta male. Maybe not a **** but too close for comfort.

She has very poor boundaries for a secure, exclusive relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

alexm said:


> It sounds like you're lucky as well. Even though guys like us wind up in places like this, it bears repeating: this type of behaviour from a spouse is not always a harbinger of things to come, nor is it necessarily reflective upon the marriage.
> 
> What it IS reflective upon is lack of boundaries or recognition of inappropriate behaviour, but not in a way that is obvious, if that makes sense.
> 
> I would venture a guess and say that 30-40% of these incidents are NOT the spouse looking for a little extra on the side (whether that be as little as flirtation or as much as an affair).
> 
> From your description, it does not appear that your wife is looking for something extra on the side, nor was mine. Perhaps it's just awkwardness in dealing with situations, therefore she doesn't quite know how to shut it down. Maybe she doesn't want to rock the boat or insult somebody. Maybe she isn't convinced that A+B=C. And yes, maybe she doesn't mind the fact that a few guys show interest in her from time to time.
> 
> The thing with that last one is that they (your wife, my wife, etc.) DON'T have any interest in going outside the marriage, not even a fleeting thought of it. To them, Joe Blow is obviously interested, but because she is not, nor ever would be, then she is not doing anything wrong or harmful to the marriage. On the flip side, she enjoys the attention for what she perceives it to be - harmless, in her eyes. To her, it doesn't matter whether the other person is male or female, somebody is paying attention to her in one way or another.
> 
> I believe this is how my wife had seen things. Like I said, when things crossed clear lines, that's when she spoke up, and good on her. However, imo, she set herself up to open that door for a few of those guys. To her, for example, having a guy greet her with "Hey beautiful" is the same as her calling everybody "honey" (which she does, she's one of those women, lol).
> 
> It's worth mentioning that my wife is a low-libido, possibly asexual woman (her words). She enjoys sex physically, but has no real need for it, and she maintains she never has. If I didn't initiate sex with her, or make a point of letting her know that it's important to me, it'd never happen, and she'd probably be just fine with that. It's just not part of her consciousness or day-to-day life. I made the comparison here a while ago that sex to her is like playing darts to me. I don't hate playing darts, and I would if somebody asked me to (and maybe even have a good time), but I certainly never think about it and wouldn't miss it if I never played again in my life.
> 
> If everybody I was around played darts 2, 3, 4 times a week, it still wouldn't register in my brain that it's something that people would want to do with me, if that makes sense. I believe my wife's thinking is along those lines, and she doesn't always see that men are hinting, testing the waters, or fishing with her. It's naive, yes, but when something (like sex) is never on one's mind, it's not difficult to miss the things that are clearly obvious to most of us.


I think this is a thoughtful interesting post.
There a few of these type threads active right now so I am forgetting what I have posted where ha ha.

But I have seen several example here and elsewhere when the wife thought say a boss was a creepy loudmouth narcissist and found him very annoying only to ultimately sleep with him.

I think genuine needs or neediness (as we have discussed, like low esteem, etc) is a back door around the normal moral filters.

Like this, if the flattery or flirting feeds something in you, then you will be more accepting of a person then they deserve.

The Flattery/flirting is small enough to get past the blood brain barrier so to speak and directly affect the psyche of the person without alerting the discernment.

It results in an unscrutinized assumption of acceptability.

I don't think its a conscious cognitive thinking but (for explanation purposes) to put it in rational thought it might look like this.

"I would not be flattered by the attention of some creepy guy in a rain coat, but I am flattered by this guy so he must not be creepy."

This may be easily dismissed but I have always thought that the power of flattery (especially in the presence of some vulnerability) lies in its "foothold effect" and this appears as a navietivity when perhaps it is better understood as a vulnerability based on a genuine need or some neediness.

and I agree this does not mean that the person has an interest in going outside their marriage, nor more so that they will inevitability cheat. At the very least it means that they may be unaware of why they may attract certain types of attention and why they may miss some social cues about a persons intentions. 

(Being drop dead gorgeous may play a factor as well ha ha)

Husbands sometimes work hard to help their partner see the intentions of certain individuals for what they are, but are frustrated that their partner does not see it on their own.

I think that would require them to understand why they are vulnerable and when that vulnerability is being appealed to.

Having said that, I don't mean to make vulnerability sound like a bad word, (its an attractive quality in some measure at the right time) I just think what is missing is a little more selfawareness, but in the area of personal needs or neediness, when the emphasis often seems to be in learning to recognize other peoples intentions. So its a matter of personal character.

I also am of the conviction that (at least in my relationship, and my wife would agree) flirting is disrespectful to our relationship. Its a matter of mindfulness and personal boundaries.

But then, Ha ha maybe it's difficult to flatter a cynical person IDK.


----------



## NextTimeAround

WonkyNinja said:


> My apologies for sounding condescending but you wrote:
> 
> <B>"If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting."</B>
> 
> I struggle to believe that most people cannot compliment a member of the opposite sex without there being misinterpretation or an ulterior motive.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I have grown up with female friends and still have many. Any partner telling me who I could and could not have as friends would be an immediate deal breaker. But that is just me I would see that as a form of control.
> 
> I have OSF friends and my girlfriend (LDR) has met, and is friends with, some of them. She has many male friends some of whom I've met and some I haven't.
> 
> I would be concerned if there were friends she didn't want me to meet. If the relationship is serious I would think both parties would want their friends to meet. If that is your situation then I've misread this thread and your situation is very different.



Many "how to make people like you" type books will advise the reader to make lots of compliments to someone with whom you want to be friends. so compliments are seen as a powerful tool in relationships.

It's also considered sexual harassment in the workplace to comment on someone's physical appearance. 

Another thing to consider when dealing with someone who is "proud" of all their OSFs, is whether, implicitly or explicitly, are they looking to their friends to approve of their dating partner. 

I think a lot of people, especially men, who "outsource" their social life to one or two women will find themselves in this position. Everyone should make their own friends and become an integral part of more than one social circle or else you end up with someone who has total control over your social life -- and that include whom you date as well.

the folklore with Prince Charles, Princess Di and Camilla Parker Bowles is that CPB "approved" of Princess Di because she appeared naive and would most likely not interfere with PC's and CPB's affair.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> I think a lot of people, especially men, who "outsource" their social life to one or two women will find themselves in this position. Everyone should make their own friends and become an integral part of more than one social circle or else you end up with someone who has total control over your social life -- and that include whom you date as well.


Not totally clear by what you mean by your post. 

But if you each bring your social circles together isn't that the same thing?

We have friends from each others groups.  The issue is she has some guys she sees as friends but who clearly want to be suitors.

We are clear about exes at least. If not that would be instant deal killer for me.....


----------



## NextTimeAround

jdawg2015 said:


> Not totally clear by what you mean by your post.
> 
> But if you each bring your social circles together isn't that the same thing?
> 
> We have friends from each others groups. The issue is she has some guys she sees as friends but who clearly want to be suitors.
> 
> We are clear about exes at least. If not that would be instant deal killer for me.....


By "outsourcing one's social life" I mean where someone doesn't make the time and effort to develop one to one friendships. Instead, they rely on one person telling them what's going on and providing the invitations to go places. 

there can be a price tag to this. If you don't keep the ringleader happy, they can take you off the list. If you don't have other options, your social life can be left high and dry.

My husband put himself in this position. Even after 18 months inLondon, he claimed that "his special friend" was his only friend in London. Thanks, buddy. I must be chopped liver to you.

fortunately, for me, she was spiteful and by the time I was ready to raise the issue about her with him, I'm sure it was clear to him that this woman was going to be asking for way too much control over his life just for the privilege of being invited to a pub crawl (and then being asked to pay the bar tab.)

A lot of people who are lazy socially don't realise what they are doing until they are left out in the cold. I suppose this could also be problematic in a small town where there is not a lot of choice.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> By "outsourcing one's social life" I mean where someone doesn't make the time and effort to develop one to one friendships. Instead, they rely on one person telling them what's going on and providing the invitations to go places.
> 
> there can be a price tag to this. If you don't keep the ringleader happy, they can take you off the list. If you don't have other options, your social life can be left high and dry.
> 
> My husband put himself in this position. Even after 18 months inLondon, he claimed that "his special friend" was his only friend in London. Thanks, buddy. I must be chopped liver to you.
> 
> fortunately, for me, she was spiteful and by the time I was ready to raise the issue about her with him, I'm sure it was clear to him that this woman was going to be asking for way too much control over his life just for the privilege of being invited to a pub crawl (and then being asked to pay the bar tab.)
> 
> A lot of people who are lazy socially don't realise what they are doing until they are left out in the cold. I suppose this could also be problematic in a small town where there is not a lot of choice.


So are you saying this is why people should keep OSF's or just friends in general? I am definitely much more comfortable around the guy friends she has that are married or LTR. We actual hang out with several couple friends. She has many serially single guy friends and not shockingly this creates the biggest friction. 

I can understand in case where you have an alpha and a beta that the alpha's social circle totally dominates.

Still not clear on what specfically you are recommending.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jdawg2015 said:


> So are you saying this is why people should keep OSF's or just friends in general? I am definitely much more comfortable around the guy friends she has that are married or LTR. We actual hang out with several couple friends. She has many serially single guy friends and not shockingly this creates the biggest friction.
> 
> I can understand in case where you have an alpha and a beta that the alpha's social circle totally dominates.
> 
> Still not clear on what specfically you are recommending.


I am saying that people should make friends on a one to one basis instead of relying on one person for your entire social life.



> So are you saying this is why people should keep OSF's or just friends in general?


What have I said that would suggest this? ETA: Yes, keep your social life bouyant and do not depend on anyone or even two people to keep it going. That's a lot of power that you are giving them. There is a lot of group think that can go on.



> I am definitely much more comfortable around the guy friends she has that are married or LTR.



I would not fall for that. My husband tried to tell me that she was safe because now she had a boyfriend. That still didn't stop her from expecting my (future) husband to show up and close the bar tabs for and her friends. Through pieceing together a couple of things, I noticed that she asked my (future) husband to go to a music festival with her, on either Friday or Sunday. That's because her bf was going with her on Saturday. 

The first time she mentioned it, he said maybe (His parents were also going to be in town that weekend as well.) aFter we had our talk, he told her that he was unable to join her.



> We actual hang out with several couple friends.


Who knew these couples friends first? You or her? I am wondering if there is a loyalty to the original friendship. My ExH, (he's English, his friends are English, we were in London), many of them saw themselves as friends of my husband (including their new spouse) and I was the interloper that they had to tolerate. But I also realise now that, to the unintiated, the English like playing games in their social life.



> She has many serially single guy friends and not shockingly this creates the biggest friction.


and ironically, this group can be the least threatening. I was buddies with 2 guys from grad school and my exH was totally relaxed about it.


----------



## alexm

WonkyNinja said:


> My apologies for sounding condescending but you wrote:
> 
> <B>"If I'm throwing compliments, I'm hunting."</B>
> 
> I struggle to believe that most people cannot compliment a member of the opposite sex without there being misinterpretation or an ulterior motive.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I have grown up with female friends and still have many. Any partner telling me who I could and could not have as friends would be an immediate deal breaker. But that is just me I would see that as a form of control.
> 
> I have OSF friends and my girlfriend (LDR) has met, and is friends with, some of them. She has many male friends some of whom I've met and some I haven't.
> 
> I would be concerned if there were friends she didn't want me to meet. If the relationship is serious I would think both parties would want their friends to meet. If that is your situation then I've misread this thread and your situation is very different.


The difference, and what I believe Jdawg is talking about specifically here, is when these OSF make you feel uncomfortable.

I, too, don't have a problem with OSF, in theory. I'm not a big proponent of the "no OSF" policy. That said, I believe very much that these people need to pass the test from your partner, as well. In Jdawg's case, there was at least one male friend of his wife's, who, even though he was introduced to him, and they all spent time together, was clearly interested in his wife and it made Jdawg uncomfortable. Not from the standpoint of jealousy, or mistrust for his wife, but purely out of the fact that there is no room in a marriage for a third party.

It technically doesn't matter if this guy was a threat or not, he's not there in a 100% friendly manner, he has an agenda. Whether that agenda is to slowly drive a wedge in between Jdawg and his wife, or if he's patient enough to wait around and "be there for her" in the chance they break up, it doesn't matter.

Furthermore, Jdawg (and myself) are struggling to understand why our wives don't see this stuff happening. Whether it ever actually leads to something is a moot point. We're both sitting here asking ourselves why our wives continue to open doors to people who have an agenda when it's so plainly obvious to those around them.

And in the case of my wife specifically why it repeatedly had to get to the point that she had to chew a few guys out before she "got it". She figured out on her own - I did not say "see? I told you so!" - that her boundaries and the line which SHE drew, was generally too far. Once these guys got to THAT line, however, she handled them, and not in a nice way. That said, it's not entirely on the man, in those cases, that it actually GOT that far in the first place. The doors either kept getting opened, or they weren't slammed shut in the first place before it reached a point that was "too far" for my wife. I believe she gets that now - that it's okay to close the door much much earlier without seeming like she's mean.

And honestly, she's still learning, and I have patience. Just the other day, she got a message from a former co-worker (who I have met). They haven't talked in years, it seems. He opened the message by saying "Hi beautiful!" and proceeded to ask how she's been and how things are going. To her, this goes right over her head still, and that's okay. He's not the first or the only one to speak to her like that. I saw the message, as I was right next to her, and I took the opportunity to point out that this is generally not an appropriate way to address a married woman. I didn't make a big thing of it, nor did I specifically get into it about this guy in particular. But I did use it as a perfect example of where she and I can start forming boundaries at the most basic level.

I didn't accuse the guy outright of fishing, but I did get her to recognize that he was following the protocol almost word for word. Starting with a flattering comment. Mentioning it's been a while since they've talked. Asking her how things are going. Ending with a question so she feels like she has to respond. Pretty standard stuff. Once she sifted through this, I think she did realize that this was fishing, in the guise of being friendly.

But that's the thing - men and women don't often see the forest for the trees. She's married, happily, so she doesn't see this guy in that way, nor does she feel that he's actually fishing for her - because she's married. She's not naive enough to think that people don't do that - she's just got the blinders on that somebody is doing it to her/us. To her, it's a non-threat. But when I told her that there's no room in our marriage for third-party fishing, she not only understood, she agreed. She just never saw it the way I, an outsider, did.

And as somebody earlier in this thread mentioned, workplace is often VERY separate from home. The husband or wife isn't around, so it's very easy to divide the two parts of your day into completely separate entities and not think of one while at the other.


----------



## cons

Hi Jdawg-

You asked if there was something specific said that finally made me self aware...
...If I recall it took us probably 5 instances over the course of six months where a couple of men from our social group had invited only me to a separate social activity (without my husband- he was my boyfriend/fiance at the time). At first I entertained one event in my mind (this was very hurtful to my husband)....then I would decline (but my husband asked me to go a step further and actually voice offense to the single invitation). At first I tried to argue from the stance that I don't have any desire for these men...

...it took my husband explaining to me how they were getting "juice" from interacting with me. That I was taking care of there feelings (not wanting to offend them) at the expense of my husband. I guess it was when he asked me whose feelings are more important? It was then that I actively chose my husband.

We did take a break from attending any events for a while with that social group. Recently we've returned and have been able to make it work and have respectful friendships.


----------



## alexm

On the subject of OSF's specifically, I am of the belief that they should never be borne out of the workplace, especially when one or both people are married or in a relationship.

The primary reason being is that often you can spend more time with your work mates than with your partner, on a weekly basis. 8-10 hours of the waking day, 40+ hours a week, versus 5 or 6 hours a day with your partner at home.

And those home hours usually comprise of chores, errands, children, different schedules, incorporating a social life that may include others, etc. As it is now, I rarely see my wife alone, or get the opportunity to do something fun with just her, that doesn't include running around town doing errands.

However, she gets 8 hours a day with Joe Blow at work. Yes, they're working, but there are no kids, no dinners to make, no discussing fun topics such as finances and schooling, and hell, they get to take breaks or lunches, buy each other coffee, etc.

If two people of the opposite sex have to work together, and they hit it off, things can escalate quickly, often without either of them even realizing it. Think about it. You already have one thing in common (work). You both know everybody around you (same social circles at work). The daily stresses of home life are gone for 8 hours a day. etc etc etc.

You could love your husband or wife like there's no tomorrow, but if you get home every day and your two kids are fighting over something stupid, the bills just came in, somebody has to make dinner, your partner is grumpy because he had a bad day at work, somebody's sick, etc. You're practically begging to be back at work where these things don't exist AND you get to spend the day with a person who is nice AND doesn't bring these annoying life obstacles with them.

So I can't see how any normal husband or wife would be thrilled that their partner is now incorporating this person into their non-work life, as well.


----------



## WonkyNinja

ConanHub said:


> You and I are from different worlds and how long have you been married? You might be successful in a relationship or is this theory?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was married for 19 years and jealousy was not the reason for the divorce.

I've been in a wonderful LDR for 18 months and we're trying to remove the LD from that. 

We both have a circle of friends, male and female, that we go out with regularly in groups or individually and it's not an issue, at all. 

I would never even dream of telling her that she had to drop friend X or Y. She remains close friends with her ex-H and I am absolutely delighted for her about that. If one of her friends was inappropriate she would deal with it, as would I.


----------



## NextTimeAround

WonkyNinja said:


> I was married for 19 years and jealousy was not the reason for the divorce.
> 
> I've been in a wonderful LDR for 18 months and we're trying to remove the LD from that.
> 
> *We both have a circle of friends, male and female, that we go out with regularly in groups or individually and it's not an issue, at all.
> *
> I would never even dream of telling her that she had to drop friend X or Y. She remains close friends with her ex-H and I am absolutely delighted for her about that. If one of her friends was inappropriate she would deal with it, as would I.


there was a time when I would have thought nothing of my husband going out with a female friend one on one without me. But those days are over with.

Let's see what can happen:

Femal friend can feel that they don't have to see wife as part of the friendship pacakge. Ergo, she becomes dismissive of wife. Husband may say, "well, you never had a problem with it (my seeing her on own) before."

Two excuses that my husband uses for never having intriduced mne to his friend (even when she invited me to her T-day dinner party) are
1. She started acting like less a friend and more as a girlfriend, so I couldn't trust her.

2. "You said that you never wanted anything to do with her." This was used to explain why he didn't invite me to a few things that occurred before he even told me about her.


----------



## alexm

cons said:


> Hi Jdawg-
> 
> You asked if there was something specific said that finally made me self aware...
> ...If I recall it took us probably 5 instances over the course of six months where a couple of men from our social group had invited only me to a separate social activity (without my husband- he was my boyfriend/fiance at the time). At first I entertained one event in my mind (this was very hurtful to my husband)....then I would decline (but my husband asked me to go a step further and actually voice offense to the single invitation). At first I tried to argue from the stance that I don't have any desire for these men...
> 
> ...it took my husband explaining to me how they were getting "juice" from interacting with me. That I was taking care of there feelings (not wanting to offend them) at the expense of my husband. I guess it was when he asked me whose feelings are more important? It was then that I actively chose my husband.
> 
> We did take a break from attending any events for a while with that social group. Recently we've returned and have been able to make it work and have respectful friendships.


A perfect example of how these things can be handled by both parties involved.

I LOVE that we're seeing a firsthand account from somebody on the opposite side of things.

It's very clear that you handled things the way you did in large part because of how your husband addressed them, which is key. I also love the fact that your husband shows enough confidence in your marriage that the two of you have been able to rejoin the social circle again.


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## ConanHub

alexm. You ever think to respond to some of these men by saying how glad you are that they find your wife beautiful?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexm

WonkyNinja said:


> I was married for 19 years and jealousy was not the reason for the divorce.
> 
> I've been in a wonderful LDR for 18 months and we're trying to remove the LD from that.
> 
> We both have a circle of friends, male and female, that we go out with regularly in groups or individually and it's not an issue, at all.
> 
> I would never even dream of telling her that she had to drop friend X or Y. She remains close friends with her ex-H and I am absolutely delighted for her about that. If one of her friends was inappropriate she would deal with it, as would I.


Ninja, I don't want to disagree with what you two feel is right for your relationship - what works for you, works for you.

The reality is that this generally does NOT work for most couples. It doesn't mean you're wrong, either.

But, you have to admit that those of us talking about this subject, here and now, are not in relationships that are long distance, nor as short as 18 months. The dynamics involved for Jdawg, me, and you are vastly different.

I imagine things would be/will be different if your relationship gets to the point where it's no longer long distance. It will change again if you are married, and change further when/if there are children. Mortgages, bills, car payments, shared bank accounts, savings, retirement planning, in-laws, etc etc etc.

As I said in my post above, things can quickly go from "just the two of you" to "crazy house circus" in no time. And it's at this point that the quality time the two of you have together is rare, and there's no real room for outsiders.


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## cons

alexm said:


> A perfect example of how these things can be handled by both parties involved.
> 
> I LOVE that we're seeing a firsthand account from somebody on the opposite side of things.
> 
> It's very clear that you handled things the way you did in large part because of how your husband addressed them, which is key. I also love the fact that your husband shows enough confidence in your marriage that the two of you have been able to rejoin the social circle again.


Thanks Alex.
It was definitely my desire to love and care for my husband so he could be reassured that I would always take care of him....of us. I definitely regret that I was so blind to the impact of my actions/non-action back then. I am truly blessed.


----------



## alexm

ConanHub said:


> alexm. You ever think to respond to some of these men by saying how glad you are that they find your wife beautiful?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol!

The thought crossed my mind when that one popped up, but it's not my place to be typing messages on my wife's facebook account.

The sad fact is that it's not up to me to make these boundaries on her behalf. If I say or type some response to this guy, then the boundary isn't coming from my wife, it's coming from me. Then it's "jealous husband making rules for his wife".

The boundaries need to come from her. Now if she said "yes, my husband, who's sitting right next to me, thinks I'm beautiful too", that might get the point across.

My only role in creating these boundaries is if they're crossed in real life, with me there.


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## ConanHub

Thanks alexm. Mrs. Conan and I are quite different critters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

jdawg2015 said:


> Almost exectly how I've begun dealing with this but have found timing is key.


No, it isn't. That's a beta response.

Either you're ready to kick her out or you're not. 

Maybe what you really mean is "Almost exactly how I've begun dealing with this but I'd still rather have her no matter how she acts, than be without her."

That's cool, too, as long as you recognize the truth. 

So if that IS your truth - that you're not ready to leave her, then instead we can work on your boundaries/consequences. Everyone should have their own boundaries/consequences. This is what you won't put up with (your boundary) and what YOU will do if your own boundary is crossed (your consequence).

For example, we tell people if your spouse yells at you, your boundary should be to not accept being yelled at. And if they do yell at you, you enact your consequence to protect yourself. It has nothing to do with the other person - since you can't make the other person do anything. So if she yells, you would hold your hand out in a 'stop' sign, say 'I won't accept being yelled at,' and leave the room. You come back in 20 minutes and if she starts yelling again, you do it again and say 'we'll talk when you can talk to me with respect.' If you come back and they're still yelling, you say 'I'm going for a walk' and you stay gone for a couple hours. If when you return, she STILL wants to yell (to try to control you), you pack an overnight bag and go stay at a hotel or a friend's house. If when you return, she STILL wants to yell, you say "I'm gonna go stay somewhere for a while, since you can't treat me with respect. Let's think about where this is going." And you go away for a few days. And try again.

Do you see how this works? You aren't making her do ANYthing. You are controlling how YOU react to what she does. And if you show your consequence and she still doesn't get it, you expand the consequence. And expand again, and again, and the consequence starts having more and more of an effect on them, so they have to start taking you more seriously. And it protects YOU from their harmful act. In the end, they either learn to respect your boundary, or you realize they won't and you can't stay with them in the same way. 

If you want, we can help you come up with some good boundaries/consequences to help you see if this situation is salvageable.


----------



## turnera

alexm said:


> Lol!
> 
> The thought crossed my mind when that one popped up, but it's not my place to be typing messages on my wife's facebook account.
> 
> The sad fact is that it's not up to me to make these boundaries on her behalf. If I say or type some response to this guy, then the boundary isn't coming from my wife, it's coming from me. Then it's "jealous husband making rules for his wife".
> 
> The boundaries need to come from her. Now if she said "yes, my husband, who's sitting right next to me, thinks I'm beautiful too", that might get the point across.
> 
> My only role in creating these boundaries is if they're crossed in real life, with me there.


I kind of agree with you, but do remember that women generally like it when their men 'protect them' from other men. It makes the women (as long as they're secure in their own worth) feel desired and beautiful and all that jazz. I guess the fine line is deciding when it's too much, lol.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> I kind of agree with you, but do remember that women generally like it when their men 'protect them' from other men. It makes the women (as long as they're secure in their own worth) feel desired and beautiful and all that jazz. I guess the fine line is deciding when it's too much, lol.


Mrs. Conan and I own each other outright. She has told men that her husband was really going to enjoy a conversation about her going on a date with another man. I have done similar to women coming on to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cons

turnera said:


> I kind of agree with you, but do remember that women generally like it when their men 'protect them' from other men. It makes the women (as long as they're secure in their own worth) feel desired and beautiful and all that jazz. I guess the fine line is deciding when it's too much, lol.


This would make sense if his wife actually saw some of the interactions of these male friends as offensive or crossing a line and wanted her husband's support. But right now she's in the camp that these guys are just friendly (and she can't control how they are, nor does she want to offend them). So the OP is trying to state his boundaries respectfully to his wife, asking her to honor him as her husband and taking his into account when choosing what friends are appropriate. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision with regard to opposite OSF's, but it should be an honorable one in respect to the primary coupleship.


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## turnera

And that will never change until he can show her that it IS his boundary and he can't stay married to her if she won't accept it. That she's free to flirt all she wants with men, it just won't be when she's married to him.


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## NextTimeAround

cons said:


> This would make sense if his wife actually saw some of the interactions of these male friends as offensive or crossing a line and wanted her husband's support. But right now she's in the camp that these guys are just friendly (and she can't control how they are, nor does she want to offend them). So the OP is trying to state his boundaries respectfully to his wife, asking her to honor him as her husband and taking his into account when choosing what friends are appropriate. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision with regard to opposite OSF's,* but it should be an honorable one in respect to the primary coupleship*.


and also to differences between what a partner is giving to the relationship AND giving up to be in relationship as compared to similar comparisons with what it means to be (just) a friend.


----------



## alexm

ConanHub said:


> Thanks alexm. Mrs. Conan and I are quite different critters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep in mind I am talking about online interactions, not real life ones. There have been more than enough occasions when I have had to assert myself to somebody, and have no problem doing so.

Online is a different animal. The perception is off. If I type a message back to the guy I was talking about, he will likely assume my wife is not even actually there, even if I say she is. He will only get that *I* disapprove of his wording, not my wife. That's where my wife comes in, and the issues we've had - SHE has to be the one to make it clear she's not interested when I'm not around.

And if he's fishing, then what does it matter what *I* think? Of course her husband is going to disapprove. Unless I'm a 6'6, ex-military, biker dude (I'm not) nothing I say will keep him from fishing until SHE puts a stop to it.


----------



## alexm

turnera said:


> I kind of agree with you, but do remember that women generally like it when their men 'protect them' from other men. It makes the women (as long as they're secure in their own worth) feel desired and beautiful and all that jazz. I guess the fine line is deciding when it's too much, lol.


Yep, I agree, and see it occasionally from my wife. Just last week, when the guy "accidentally" sent her a picture of his d*** (different thread, it's awesome...) I handled it. I was right next to her, and had no problem taking the laptop and sending him a nice message back. I also removed and blocked him, which she appreciated. And sent his girlfriend a message telling her what he had done... "accidentally." She actually laughed about that one when I told her I did that. Cool.

It's things like this that have recently started to get her thinking about just how "friendly" some of these guys are. Because most of them haven't gone quite THAT far in their interest, she pays no mind. As I have told her on more than one occasion over the years, without sounding condescending, most of those guys are not her "friends". What used to be insulting to her (as in "these guys aren't your friends") has now turned to the realization that I might just be on to something...

Now, only a couple of them have really crossed lines that are visible and quantifiable and obvious, that she can't argue with, and she's dealt with those and moved on. But as it continues, and will likely continue, to happen, it keeps hammering it home to her, which is good I suppose. This has also had the added benefit of her clearly removing one or two rungs of this ladder each time it happens.

The guy sending his d*** pic to her was a blessing in disguise (thanks, d*** guy!), as this was the farthest anyone has crossed over the line with her, and also by far the creepiest and most disrespectful way. While in the past, she has tried to give so-and-so the benefit of the doubt (ie. defending), with this there wasn't even a hint of that. The picture was followed by a few messages proclaiming his "accident" and that he was SO sorry and it was meant for his girlfriend, and please delete it, I'm so embarrassed. Blah blah blah. Might possibly have been an accident, and definitely SOME room to give the benefit of the doubt, but she didn't go there at all. That's progress, imo. Shows her tolerance for dumbassery is lower than it has been, accident or not. She didn't voice any thought whatsoever that "what if it was an accident? How embarrassing for him, I feel bad" like she may have done 5 or 6 years ago. She had NO problem with me chewing him out, deleting and blocking him OR sending his girlfriend a message. It's his problem, and his alone, accident or not, and she appears to have seen that.

And for what it's worth, I think I furthered my "manliness" in her eyes by not sitting there and explaining to her WHY I didn't think it was an accident, I just straight up said "BS" and went into action. I could have told her how unlikely it is to do that, that there are guys (and girls) out there who enjoy others seeing their body parts, that he was fishing for compliments on his d***, or that he's so full of himself that he thinks a woman will see it and fall all over themselves to get some of it. Maybe he was expecting my wife to send a message back telling him not to worry about it, accidents happen, and... "boy, your girlfriend sure is lucky!". Boom, open door. (my wife would never do that). Or he'll reply by saying "maybe you should send me a picture of your ***s, it's only fair". Seriously, you don't know where people are going with stuff like this.

The fact that I took quick and decisive action, without asking her first, and with her right next to me, gained me a few points, I'm sure. See? I've learned over the years, too, not just her.

At the end of the day, she's starting to clearly see that not all opposite sex friends are friends, or at least in some cases, there's doubt. And that's equally great, and about damn time.


----------



## alexm

cons said:


> This would make sense if his wife actually saw some of the interactions of these male friends as offensive or crossing a line and wanted her husband's support. But right now she's in the camp that these guys are just friendly (and she can't control how they are, nor does she want to offend them). So the OP is trying to state his boundaries respectfully to his wife, asking her to honor him as her husband and taking his into account when choosing what friends are appropriate. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision with regard to opposite OSF's, but it should be an honorable one in respect to the primary coupleship.


Cons, if only my wife knew you in real life...

I can't agree more with this. It's not black and white, all or nothing, and this type of behaviour is never one way or the other.

You are like my wife, and it seems like OP's wife, in that reacting in the way you/they do/did to what is otherwise obvious behaviour to all the husbands involved, is not indicative of a severe enough fault in boundaries that you/my wife/OP's wife should be left or divorced. It's fixable, if gone about the right way (for you). Some husbands/wives WILL react positively with the alpha male/female approach (Conan and his wife). Some require a gentler approach. Some will just never get it, so either you live with a skanky wife/husband, or you move on. (skanky, meaning always seeking OS attention, by the way, not necessarily acting upon it.)

My wife is not yet at the place you have reached, in that you completely see the forest for the trees. She is still holding off a little bit, though she's most definitely been made very aware of what is (usually) actually happening.

It's funny, because here on TAM, I've learned a lot about "mate guarding". It's generally accepted that all couples do this, especially with workplace and OSF relationships.

In this case, we husbands are doing exactly that, yet a few people are suggesting our wives are not worthy of this, and that "I'd never stay with my wife if she was like this" or "I'd be out that door so quick" (*not actual quotes).

The reality is some men and women either don't SEE what's really going at times, or choose to ignore it for whatever reason. I'll say it again: to my wife, SHE'S not a risk to the marriage, so what does it matter to her, or me, whether she puts these guys in their place before it gets out of hand? To her, it doesn't matter what these guys say or do, she's not sleeping with them, or leaving me for them, so whatever they say is fruitless, therefore, why should *I* care? To her, she has to work with them, and she'd rather they be overly friendly than the opposite. She also doesn't want to rock the boat, which is fair enough (yet quite the opposite of what we've been teaching our children over the years - TELL somebody, don't be afraid, etc.)

Truth is, sexual harrassment in the workplace is still alive and well. My wife just told me some guy at her old workplace used to give her the wolf-whistle every time he saw her, and they didn't even know each others names. Another guy at work (temp worker she didn't know) walked by her in the hall one day and said "Nice a**!". This stuff still goes on. Despite what our employers tell us to do when this stuff happen, and that the consequences are usually loss of employment (or worse), people still do it. And regardless of being told over and over what to do when you're the recipient of this, often people don't know HOW to do it. They don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to jeopardize their employment. They don't want to be shunned at work by buddy and his friends. They don't know if this guy is going to follow her somewhere after work and exact his revenge.

So often the easiest way to deal with it is to let it happen until it REALLY crosses a line. Having a male co-worker call you "beautiful" - is that something most women will address right then and there, or is it just easier to let it slide and ignore it? Honestly. Many of you WOULD say "please don't call me that" or "my husband thinks so, too", but many of you wouldn't say two words about it. Ignore it. He'll stop when I don't show interest. Maybe somebody else will overhear it and call him out on it. etc. It's just easier that way, even though the potential repercussions may not be good.


----------



## turnera

alexm said:


> And for what it's worth, I think I furthered my "manliness" in her eyes by not sitting there and explaining to her WHY I didn't think it was an accident, I just straight up said "BS" and went into action.
> 
> The fact that I took quick and decisive action, without asking her first, and with her right next to me, gained me a few points, I'm sure. See? I've learned over the years, too, not just her.


Exactly!


----------



## jdawg2015

alexm said:


> Cons, if only my wife knew you in real life...
> 
> I can't agree more with this. It's not black and white, all or nothing, and this type of behaviour is never one way or the other.
> 
> You are like my wife, and it seems like OP's wife, in that reacting in the way you/they do/did to what is otherwise obvious behaviour to all the husbands involved, is not indicative of a severe enough fault in boundaries that you/my wife/OP's wife should be left or divorced. It's fixable, if gone about the right way (for you). Some husbands/wives WILL react positively with the alpha male/female approach (Conan and his wife). Some require a gentler approach. Some will just never get it, so either you live with a skanky wife/husband, or you move on. (skanky, meaning always seeking OS attention, by the way, not necessarily acting upon it.)
> 
> My wife is not yet at the place you have reached, in that you completely see the forest for the trees. She is still holding off a little bit, though she's most definitely been made very aware of what is (usually) actually happening.
> 
> It's funny, because here on TAM, I've learned a lot about "mate guarding". It's generally accepted that all couples do this, especially with workplace and OSF relationships.
> 
> In this case, we husbands are doing exactly that, yet a few people are suggesting our wives are not worthy of this, and that "I'd never stay with my wife if she was like this" or "I'd be out that door so quick" (*not actual quotes).
> 
> The reality is some men and women either don't SEE what's really going at times, or choose to ignore it for whatever reason. I'll say it again: to my wife, SHE'S not a risk to the marriage, so what does it matter to her, or me, whether she puts these guys in their place before it gets out of hand? To her, it doesn't matter what these guys say or do, she's not sleeping with them, or leaving me for them, so whatever they say is fruitless, therefore, why should *I* care? To her, she has to work with them, and she'd rather they be overly friendly than the opposite. She also doesn't want to rock the boat, which is fair enough (yet quite the opposite of what we've been teaching our children over the years - TELL somebody, don't be afraid, etc.)
> 
> Truth is, sexual harrassment in the workplace is still alive and well. My wife just told me some guy at her old workplace used to give her the wolf-whistle every time he saw her, and they didn't even know each others names. Another guy at work (temp worker she didn't know) walked by her in the hall one day and said "Nice a**!". This stuff still goes on. Despite what our employers tell us to do when this stuff happen, and that the consequences are usually loss of employment (or worse), people still do it. And regardless of being told over and over what to do when you're the recipient of this, often people don't know HOW to do it. They don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to jeopardize their employment. They don't want to be shunned at work by buddy and his friends. They don't know if this guy is going to follow her somewhere after work and exact his revenge.
> 
> So often the easiest way to deal with it is to let it happen until it REALLY crosses a line. Having a male co-worker call you "beautiful" - is that something most women will address right then and there, or is it just easier to let it slide and ignore it? Honestly. Many of you WOULD say "please don't call me that" or "my husband thinks so, too", but many of you wouldn't say two words about it. Ignore it. He'll stop when I don't show interest. Maybe somebody else will overhear it and call him out on it. etc. It's just easier that way, even though the potential repercussions may not be good.


alexm, we both have very similar women in our lives that's for sure.

I have found being super alpha is paying dividends. She acts like she doesn't like it but I can tell she does.

In one case we had group dinner. The single guy basically tried to zero in on her, talked to nobody but her until I intentionally put myself into the conversation and then he quickly went to other side of room.

Not to mention the blatantly obvious looks at her body from head to toe.

This was not even a question of me being sensitive, etc. The guy really deserve a punch in the eye.

Not so easy for her to see it the same way I do.


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> alexm, we both have very similar women in our lives that's for sure.
> 
> I have found being super alpha is paying dividends. She acts like she doesn't like it but I can tell she does.
> 
> In one case we had group dinner. The single guy basically tried to zero in on her, talked to nobody but her until I intentionally put myself into the conversation and then he quickly went to other side of room.
> 
> Not to mention the blatantly obvious looks at her body from head to toe.
> 
> This was not even a question of me being sensitive, etc. The guy really deserve a punch in the eye.
> 
> Not so easy for her to see it the same way I do.


As Cons said (and thank god for her great insight), it's about approaching the issue in a way that is respectful and caring, and trying to steer clear of condescension (which is tricky) or accusations.

As I alluded to, my wifes ex went through the same thing (same workplace, same guys), yet handled it in a way that my wife did not respond to. Theoretically, this did not absolve her of what she was doing, nor justified it in any way, but it also focused in on HER in a negative way. The approach didn't work, she thought he was being ridiculous and jealous, and she continued on almost out of spite, I'm sure.

As I don't work with her, at that place, I didn't clue in to her workplace behaviour (or more specifically, the behaviour of her male co-workers) until about 2 years into our relationship. This would have been a good 3 years since her ex and her broke up. So when I started to notice it and mentioned something, she pretty much said, verbatim "Not again", then told me about how her ex had treated her in regards to this very same issue. This is when she made it clear that she had no patience for jealous partners, etc etc etc.

Over the next couple of years, she basically continued on the same path, with me visibly showing my disapproval here and there, but not making a big deal of things. Even though things moved slowly, she definitely got the hint at times that I was not pleased.

About 3 years ago was when the one guy REALLY started to cross lines, making comments about her breasts for example, or that she should wear this or that, and generally being blatantly obvious. I got the "don't worry, he's like that with everybody" and "he has a girlfriend" speeches. To which I basically asked her why she tolerated it, and allowed somebody to make sexually suggestive and lewd comments about her body - at work no less - all while having a boyfriend at home, not to mention HE had a girlfriend. I asked her how SHE would feel if I was at work commenting on a female co-workers breasts, and what this hypothetical woman's boyfriend or husband would think of me.

And this, believe it or not, was not something she had thought about, and she felt stupid. My wife isn't stupid at all, she just doesn't see the forest for the trees sometimes, especially with male/female relationships. From her standpoint, it's harmless. Boys will be boys. But there was no thought whatsoever about this guys girlfriend, let alone me. Because, in theory, she wasn't doing anything wrong, nor WOULD she do anything wrong, she was in the clear. She was under the impression that somebody else's words to her were not her responsibility.

As I said, this particular guy was the beginning of the wake up call to her. It had crossed the line from innocent(ish) flirtation with her to full on "I like your t**s", and she started to get it.

It's still a work in progress, she's not fully there yet, and there's a balance to be made. She's still having some difficulty in weeding out the friendly from the overly-friendly.

But each incident that comes down the pipeline that I catch, I'm able to now point out in a relaxed and non-accusatory manner. I'm not at work with her, obviously, so I can't point out everything, but I've gotten to the point where when I am able to say something, she's not taking it as me being jealous. The other day, when she gets a FB message from a former co-worker that said "Hey beautiful, long time no see! How are things going with you?", I was able to give my opinion on his wording, and how, although it seems very innocuous, that's it's quite clearly fishing. And she saw it, which is a huge step for her.

The thing is, with this guy, and most of the guys who speak to her like this, she genuinely has no interest and doesn't think of them like that, therefore she's missing the intent most of the time. With her, it has to get blatant before she recognizes it.

As has been the case with my wife, I find that I have to provide examples to get my point across, because she genuinely doesn't see the harm a lot of the time. So with this guy (much like the last one...) I asked her to imagine if the roles were reversed, and she was messaging a married man out of the blue like that. Firstly, I asked, WHY would you be sending a message out of the blue? After several years of not speaking? What would have made you think of him? Secondly, if you knew he was married, question 1 is amplified. Third, why would you be messaging a married man after several years of no contact and starting it with "Hey handsome" ? And lastly, why is your follow-up question "How are things going?"

And she agreed. Which is huge for her. No defense, no benefit of the doubt, no "that's just how he is", etc. She seemed to get it.

Now, to be fair, his message doesn't mean squat. It proves nothing. She and I both know that. But we're at the point now where she's seeing the possibility that it does mean something, and to not feed into it, in case it DOES mean something. And I'm thankful for that.

We're at the point now where I hope she's seeing this on her own, and she doesn't need me to point these things out. I trust that she does, and I certainly can't monitor her. These things have to happen in front of me for me to be able to either judge her reaction or point them out to her, but I have faith.

That said, as confident I am that she "gets it", there is a finite point where if it keeps popping up, I AM going to start losing my patience. I think I actually need to see her shut these things down in order for me to be completely comfortable. But she's on the right track.


----------



## AriYarjan

I just read your entire thread. In general, it is never a good idea for your girlfriend or wife to have friends of the opposite sex. She should know that although many women do not.


----------



## jdawg2015

alexm said:


> As I don't work with her, at that place, I didn't clue in to her workplace behaviour (or more specifically, the behaviour of her male co-workers) until about 2 years into our relationship. This would have been a good 3 years since her ex and her broke up. So when I started to notice it and mentioned something, she pretty much said, verbatim "*Not again",* then told me about how her ex had treated her in regards to this very same issue. This is when she made it clear that she had no patience for jealous partners, etc etc etc.


The minute she said not again should have been a trigger to her that maybe she was part of the problem.:scratchhead:

My fiance clearly knows I'm not the jealous type. In my case the situation has gotten considerably better but I think there's still some unsettle topics to cover.

We seem to get there in chunks. 

Much like you I've had to explain how any case it bothers me or showed her how things are uncomfortable. Kinda like building a case file.

Example: she has this guy friend who went diving. I've met the guy and seemed ok to me. Then one night he sent her sunset pictures from his liveaboard trip. *At 12:30 in the morning*.
Needless to say I told her that reallt pissed me off and was a complete lack of respect to send to someone who's engaged. I even said at this point either he's gone or I'm gone as I'm not going to have someone text my future wife at any time of night.

Now, if my fiance was dumb enough to choose this guy over me, there's nothing I could do... (looks, money, etc he has no chance). But it's the principal of not establishing a boundary that I don't like. I would have preferred she sent a text back to Mr Sunset and tell him, "look, there's a time and place for this but sending texts at 12:30 AM is not appropriate".

When I asked my fiancé how she'd feel is a woman texted me the same thing at the same time, she knew damn well it would not be acceptable. She definitely got the point.

Instead, she will just now ignore him instead of making it clear. Working on this topic as part of it is her not wanting to "be mean".


----------



## jdawg2015

cons said:


> Hi Jdawg-
> 
> You asked if there was something specific said that finally made me self aware...
> ...If I recall it took us probably 5 instances over the course of six months where a couple of men from our social group had invited only me to a separate social activity (without my husband- he was my boyfriend/fiance at the time). At first I entertained one event in my mind (this was very hurtful to my husband)....then I would decline (but my husband asked me to go a step further and actually voice offense to the single invitation). At first I tried to argue from the stance that I don't have any desire for these men...
> 
> ...it took my husband explaining to me how they were getting "juice" from interacting with me. That I was taking care of there feelings (not wanting to offend them) at the expense of my husband. I guess it was when he asked me whose feelings are more important? It was then that I actively chose my husband.
> 
> We did take a break from attending any events for a while with that social group. Recently we've returned and have been able to make it work and have respectful friendships.


cons, really appreciate this post as the other perspective is very valuable. 

In my case with my fiance I've really had to give her a wake up call. No doubt in every case, I think she's seen things as guys being friends and oblivous to the red flags.

In some cases these guy friends knew her before me but some only in last couple years, not some long lost childhood friends. So they obviously are slowly getting the message that she's taken.

My fiance is touchy so anyone seeing her with me, there's not much left to guess the status of things


----------



## MEM2020

Flawless




alexm said:


> Yep, I agree, and see it occasionally from my wife. Just last week, when the guy "accidentally" sent her a picture of his d*** (different thread, it's awesome...) I handled it. I was right next to her, and had no problem taking the laptop and sending him a nice message back. I also removed and blocked him, which she appreciated. And sent his girlfriend a message telling her what he had done... "accidentally." She actually laughed about that one when I told her I did that. Cool.
> 
> It's things like this that have recently started to get her thinking about just how "friendly" some of these guys are. Because most of them haven't gone quite THAT far in their interest, she pays no mind. As I have told her on more than one occasion over the years, without sounding condescending, most of those guys are not her "friends". What used to be insulting to her (as in "these guys aren't your friends") has now turned to the realization that I might just be on to something...
> 
> Now, only a couple of them have really crossed lines that are visible and quantifiable and obvious, that she can't argue with, and she's dealt with those and moved on. But as it continues, and will likely continue, to happen, it keeps hammering it home to her, which is good I suppose. This has also had the added benefit of her clearly removing one or two rungs of this ladder each time it happens.
> 
> The guy sending his d*** pic to her was a blessing in disguise (thanks, d*** guy!), as this was the farthest anyone has crossed over the line with her, and also by far the creepiest and most disrespectful way. While in the past, she has tried to give so-and-so the benefit of the doubt (ie. defending), with this there wasn't even a hint of that. The picture was followed by a few messages proclaiming his "accident" and that he was SO sorry and it was meant for his girlfriend, and please delete it, I'm so embarrassed. Blah blah blah. Might possibly have been an accident, and definitely SOME room to give the benefit of the doubt, but she didn't go there at all. That's progress, imo. Shows her tolerance for dumbassery is lower than it has been, accident or not. She didn't voice any thought whatsoever that "what if it was an accident? How embarrassing for him, I feel bad" like she may have done 5 or 6 years ago. She had NO problem with me chewing him out, deleting and blocking him OR sending his girlfriend a message. It's his problem, and his alone, accident or not, and she appears to have seen that.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I think I furthered my "manliness" in her eyes by not sitting there and explaining to her WHY I didn't think it was an accident, I just straight up said "BS" and went into action. I could have told her how unlikely it is to do that, that there are guys (and girls) out there who enjoy others seeing their body parts, that he was fishing for compliments on his d***, or that he's so full of himself that he thinks a woman will see it and fall all over themselves to get some of it. Maybe he was expecting my wife to send a message back telling him not to worry about it, accidents happen, and... "boy, your girlfriend sure is lucky!". Boom, open door. (my wife would never do that). Or he'll reply by saying "maybe you should send me a picture of your ***s, it's only fair". Seriously, you don't know where people are going with stuff like this.
> 
> The fact that I took quick and decisive action, without asking her first, and with her right next to me, gained me a few points, I'm sure. See? I've learned over the years, too, not just her.
> 
> At the end of the day, she's starting to clearly see that not all opposite sex friends are friends, or at least in some cases, there's doubt. And that's equally great, and about damn time.


----------



## alexm

jdawg2015 said:


> The minute she said not again should have been a trigger to her that maybe she was part of the problem.:scratchhead:
> 
> *You'd think, eh? My wife is a bit different in that regards (though not unusual, that's for sure) in that she had a bad prior experience with this. So that's where her mindset was when I caught on to this.
> 
> The way I understand it is that, while with her ex, who also worked at this place, he handled it in 'jealous rage mode'. This made my wife feel like she was a piece of property - his piece of property. Even though he was correct in his thinking, he was not correct in his handling, and that's all she saw. (and I don't blame her). However, this had the effect of her missing the point entirely.
> 
> That said, she really should have recognized his point, regardless of how he presented it to her, but again, that's how my wife tends to handle things - as a personal attack.
> 
> To her, it was harmless. And it really was - to her. As she HAD a boyfriend AND she was not at all actually interested in these guys, it was a non-issue to her. Short sighted, obviously, but nonetheless. It was 'boys being boys', and because she was the only girl around for miles, then what's the big deal? She's not a cheater (I believe that), and her boyfriend at the time was nearby, and it's not like she was hiding it. She was just being herself in the presence of others who were being herself, so no big deal.
> 
> Where her boyfriend went wrong was going the "you're cheating on me route", so she felt that he no longer trusted her, which resulted in her saying "FU" and staying the course. A vicious circle.
> 
> The thing is, I actually feel bad for her ex. Working there, seeing what was going on, confronting her, and having her tell him to shove it. Guy must have felt extremely emasculated, especially given that her co-workers saw his reactions, yet she continued status quo. Ouch.*
> 
> My fiance clearly knows I'm not the jealous type. In my case the situation has gotten considerably better but I think there's still some unsettle topics to cover.
> 
> We seem to get there in chunks.
> 
> Much like you I've had to explain how any case it bothers me or showed her how things are uncomfortable. Kinda like building a case file.
> 
> *Yep, pretty much. Have to accumulate the "evidence" and present it. One thing at a time doesn't work, it's easily defensible. 5 or 10 things, and it makes one say "holy crap". I learned that very quickly.*
> 
> Example: she has this guy friend who went diving. I've met the guy and seemed ok to me. Then one night he sent her sunset pictures from his liveaboard trip. *At 12:30 in the morning*.
> Needless to say I told her that reallt pissed me off and was a complete lack of respect to send to someone who's engaged. I even said at this point either he's gone or I'm gone as I'm not going to have someone text my future wife at any time of night.
> 
> Now, if my fiance was dumb enough to choose this guy over me, there's nothing I could do... (looks, money, etc he has no chance). But it's the principal of not establishing a boundary that I don't like. I would have preferred she sent a text back to Mr Sunset and tell him, "look, there's a time and place for this but sending texts at 12:30 AM is not appropriate".
> 
> When I asked my fiancé how she'd feel is a woman texted me the same thing at the same time, she knew damn well it would not be acceptable. She definitely got the point.
> 
> *It's all in how you present these things. A text is a text. Without the reasoning behind why you feel it's inappropriate, it falls on deaf ears. A text with some cool pictures - fine. Same text at 12:30 am - crossing ones boundaries.
> 
> Like I said earlier, a recent message to my wife from a former co-worker and acquaintance can be overlooked if you're not seeing what you should be seeing. And I truly believe my wife does not see what I see. To her, it's just a message, asking how she's doing. So what if it starts with "Hey beautiful!" It goes over her head.
> 
> It was a good opportunity for me to point out that I think she looks at these things the wrong way from time to time, or doesn't see the hidden messages behind language and wording. Just like your wife and late night texts. The fact that he was thinking of her at 12:30 am goes right over her head. The fact that a guy says "Hey beautiful" in a message to my wife goes over her head.
> 
> The positive thing about this, for both of our wives, is that they don't see what they're not looking for, which is good. That's a positive. The bad side to this is that it makes them appear available to certain men on a subconscious level. Which in turn, continues the cycle. It often can end up the way it has once or twice with my wife, wherein a guy will become so comfortable and so sure that he's making progress that he'll "accidentally" send a d*** pic, or comfortable enough to make a comment on her body, etc.
> 
> And this is what some people have to get through to their partners, unfortunately.*
> 
> Instead, she will just now ignore him instead of making it clear. Working on this topic as part of it is her not wanting to "be mean".


----------



## turnera

> Like I said earlier, a recent message to my wife from a former co-worker and acquaintance can be overlooked if you're not seeing what you should be seeing. And I truly believe my wife does not see what I see. To her, it's just a message, asking how she's doing. So what if it starts with "Hey beautiful!" It goes over her head.


The way I taught my DD24 is that I just said that every male you interact with (unless he's gay), at at least ONE point, has thought about having sex with you. And they are always judging your actions to see if you're willing.


----------



## alexm

turnera said:


> The way I taught my DD24 is that I just said that every male you interact with (unless he's gay), at at least ONE point, has thought about having sex with you. And they are always judging your actions to see if you're willing.


It's funny then how most children will believe that when it comes from their mother, yet when a husband tells his wife this seemingly obvious fact, there's resistance or disbelief.

I mean, it's coming from the mind of a MAN! Been there, done that (when I was single).


----------



## AriYarjan

turnera said:


> The way I taught my DD24 is that I just said that every male you interact with (unless he's gay), at at least ONE point, has thought about having sex with you. And they are always judging your actions to see if you're willing.


This is exactly what I meant about having friends of the opposite sex. To some degree your gf seems to be revelling in the attention but doesn't see or want to see the damage and hurt she is inflicting by not shutting this down.


----------



## tripad

From the mum it's when it's 16-20

From the man, we think we can handle it 

It's different

For the H we do it out of respect


----------



## jdawg2015

An update after long time. The issue has been under the surface for months. We even agreed to go to pre marriage counselor. We each had an individual session then a joint session back in May. Out of that session, the agreement was no one on one with opposite sex friends, zero contact with any exes. I had voiced my complaint about the late night texts from/to the "guy friends". This one is tough to have a hard boundary as a couple are legit coworkers. 

However, apparently she can't apply common sense and tell the difference between a coworker asking if her customer got a shipment and truly part of work, or the guy from France who visits to Singapore couple times a year. The final nail for me was the French guy, who my fiance has on her own labled him as a "***** chaser" decided to send her a FB chat. 

Him: Hi, we haven't been chatting much (her name), but I have been thinking about you
Her: Hey hey, yes I am engaged to (my name) and we will be moving to BKK 
Him: Good for you, now looks like I have a reason to visit BKK 

Then they followed up with chatting about a handbag from France she wanted him to get and said she would pay him for it. So, of course he arrived in Singapore and her, me, French dude, and one of my fiancee girlfriends went to lunch all together. To say not happy was an understatement. My fiance did not know I had seen the FB chat as she had left her FB open while using my phone. So, afterwards I confronted and was hit with the "controlling, jealous, etc etc" line of reasoning. Apparently I'm totally insecure and she still claims the text about him thinking about her and coming to visit her was not what he meant, out of context, blah blah blah. Guess she seemed to forget she herself called him a "***** chaser". 

I'll update more as there few more issues along the way. Also found out she has dated two married guys in the past on top of having cheated on her ex husband. Not exactly solid character either. So obviously my trust in her is shattered.

I'm coming from a very sad place right now as I have basically ended things as feel our values too far apart. We're still going through the reality of it and I have very, very heavy heart. I've read this thread from the beginning and so much of the warnings were laid out in black and white. I've actually thought about this thread and the feedback as well as other sites in searching on how to deal with this. The advice has been spot on.

There are a total of nine guy friends I'd have to constantly deal with if had not put foot down. That's just not happening for me. 

I'll update more but this is therapy for me to get it off my chest. I'm embarrassed to tell my family and friends wedding is off. Of course I'll be the bad guy villain. Wedding was for October and we were just about to send out the invitations. Devastated is an understatement.

So sad that I can barely breathe and function as this point. Love her dearly but need strength to protect myself.


----------



## jdawg2015

turnera said:


> "Babe, I'm crazy about you, but I don't NEED you. And if this subject comes up one more time, I'm done. It's up to you to decide to let your male 'friends' know to back off ahead of time...or be let out of my life forever. I won't accept another incident."


^^^ This is basically what I did. Will elaborate later.


----------



## GusPolinski

jdawg2015 said:


> An update after long time. The issue has been under the surface for months. We even agreed to go to pre marriage counselor. We each had an individual session then a joint session back in May. Out of that session, the agreement was no one on one with opposite sex friends, zero contact with any exes. I had voiced my complaint about the late night texts from/to the "guy friends". This one is tough to have a hard boundary as a couple are legit coworkers.
> 
> However, apparently she can't apply common sense and tell the difference between a coworker asking if her customer got a shipment and truly part of work, or the guy from France who visits to Singapore couple times a year. The final nail for me was the French guy, who my fiance has on her own labled him as a "***** chaser" decided to send her a FB chat.
> 
> Him: Hi, we haven't been chatting much (her name), but I have been thinking about you
> Her: Hey hey, yes I am engaged to (my name) and we will be moving to BKK
> Him: Good for you, now looks like I have a reason to visit BKK
> 
> Then they followed up with chatting about a handbag from France she wanted him to get and said she would pay him for it. So, of course he arrived in Singapore and her, me, French dude, and one of my fiancee girlfriends went to lunch all together. To say not happy was an understatement. My fiance did not know I had seen the FB chat as she had left her FB open while using my phone. So, afterwards I confronted and was hit with the "controlling, jealous, etc etc" line of reasoning. Apparently I'm totally insecure and she still claims the text about him thinking about her and coming to visit her was not what he meant, out of context, blah blah blah. Guess she seemed to forget she herself called him a "***** chaser".
> 
> I'll update more as there few more issues along the way. *Also found out she has dated two married guys in the past on top of having cheated on her ex husband. Not exactly solid character either. So obviously my trust in her is shattered.*
> 
> I'm coming from a very sad place right now as I have basically ended things as feel our values too far apart. We're still going through the reality of it and I have very, very heavy heart. I've read this thread from the beginning and so much of the warnings were laid out in black and white. I've actually thought about this thread and the feedback as well as other sites in searching on how to deal with this. The advice has been spot on.
> 
> There are a total of nine guy friends I'd have to constantly deal with if had not put foot down. That's just not happening for me.
> 
> I'll update more but this is therapy for me to get it off my chest. I'm embarrassed to tell my family and friends wedding is off. Of course I'll be the bad guy villain. Wedding was for October and we were just about to send out the invitations. Devastated is an understatement.
> 
> So sad that I can barely breathe and function as this point. Love her dearly but need strength to protect myself.


Dump her. Immediately and permanently. She's just not relationship material.

Sorry man.


----------



## turnera

Dude, there is someone out there SO MUCH BETTER than her. I know it's hard to see it tonight, but most women WANT only one man and don't need the ego stroking and one of those will make you an excellent wife.

One suggestion. Go back to that therapist. For a few sessions, at least. Talk to him/her about your ex, what attracted you to her, and ask the therapist to help you 'fix your picker.' We can explain that if you want.


----------



## jdawg2015

turnera said:


> Dude, there is someone out there SO MUCH BETTER than her. I know it's hard to see it tonight, but most women WANT only one man and don't need the ego stroking and one of those will make you an excellent wife.
> 
> One suggestion. Go back to that therapist. For a few sessions, at least. Talk to him/her about your ex, what attracted you to her, and ask the therapist to help you 'fix your picker.' We can explain that if you want.


The sting is quite raw. Honestly thought I would marry her. 

I already know what is wrong with my picker as well, just need practice it in application and be more careful. Already see that clear as day. Ready NMMNG has helped immensely. Even discussed it with counselor.

The thought of being with someone besides her is not something I'm prepared for at moment. This one going to take a long time to recover from. Not every day you plan a wedding and not get to the alter.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

You handled this well. Calm, firm, relentless and patient. 

We don't have a word for committing marital suicide, or premarital suicide, but that's exactly what she did. 




jdawg2015 said:


> The sting is quite raw. Honestly thought I would marry her.
> 
> I already know what is wrong with my picker as well, just need practice it in application and be more careful. Already see that clear as day. Ready NMMNG has helped immensely. Even discussed it with counselor.
> 
> The thought of being with someone besides her is not something I'm prepared for at moment. This one going to take a long time to recover from. Not every day you plan a wedding and not get to the alter.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> You handled this well. Calm, firm, relentless and patient.
> 
> We don't have a word for committing marital suicide, or premarital suicide, but that's exactly what she did.


In the joint session, the counselor told "us" (really really speaking to her) that based on 25 years of experience that her behavior was high risk and that any normal male would not feel secure in such a relationship.

Then couple weeks after that when saw the FB text it was clear her boundaries sucked and there was no hope. You just don't willing accept those types of texts in a committed relationship. Took about a month to get the courage to end things. 

At least now she will get reminded every time French loser comes around it will be constant reminder she lost me.

As someone suggested would happen (including you previously) I'm dealing with the histrionics from her and dealing with the hurting heart at same time. Really f-ing low point right now.


----------



## MEM2020

Hey man - I am sorry. 

I realize you loved her. And believe she also loved you. 

I also believe there are few things more painful than marrying someone you love but are incompatible with.....





jdawg2015 said:


> In the joint session, the counselor told "us" (really really speaking to her) that based on 25 years of experience that her behavior was high risk and that any normal male would not feel secure in such a relationship.
> 
> Then couple weeks after that when saw the FB text it was clear her boundaries sucked and there was no hope. You just don't willing accept those types of texts in a committed relationship. Took about a month to get the courage to end things.
> 
> At least now she will get reminded every time French loser comes around it will be constant reminder she lost me.
> 
> As someone suggested would happen (including you previously) I'm dealing with the histrionics from her and dealing with the hurting heart at same time. Really f-ing low point right now.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jdawg2015 said:


> The sting is quite raw. Honestly thought I would marry her.
> 
> *I already know what is wrong with my picker as well, just need practice it in application and be more careful. * Already see that clear as day. Ready NMMNG has helped immensely. Even discussed it with counselor.
> 
> The thought of being with someone besides her is not something I'm prepared for at moment. This one going to take a long time to recover from. Not every day you plan a wedding and not get to the alter.


Can you elaborate? I always wonder if men subconsciously like the idea of competition until they are reminded of the negatives with the type of woman that courts that kind of attention.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> Can you elaborate? I always wonder if men subconsciously like the idea of competition until they are reminded of the negatives with the type of woman that courts that kind of attention.


I tend to get attractive women who end up having some kind of issue with their father. 

My ex wife always argues with her dad. To this day he is "mean".
My fiance has father who was constantly running around on her mother and she does not respect him.

I end up coming along compensating for it as I am generous, kind, and too much nice guy. Rather than conflict I try and pick my battles.

This is first time dealing with a person who has bunch of beta orbiters. The counselor zeroed in on her about why keeping these guys around (supposedly harmless friends if you ask her) even though it's hurting the primary relationship with me. Seems to trace back to her father and how she relates to men.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I don't get a long with my parents and yet I don' t have inappropriate OSFs.

How old is your STBX fiancée? I think the problem quite often is that women, in particular, would like to believe that OSFs are 100% interchangeable with same sex friendships. that is, if you can do a weekend getaway with a female friend, why not with a male friend and so on......

We're JUST friends, right?

At some point, even (some) women understand the difference and will either drop the friendships or unravel them to arm's length.

Some people refuse to understand the nuances of relationships and what their behavior might look like to others (ie "I don't give a rat's a$$ about what others think" and so on).

But please don't assume that just because someone does not get along with her parents, she necessarily must have inappropriate male friendships.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't get a long with my parents and yet I don' t have inappropriate OSFs.
> 
> How old is your STBX fiancée? I think the problem quite often is that women, in particular, would like to believe that OSFs are 100% interchangeable with same sex friendships. that is, if you can do a weekend getaway with a female friend, why not with a male friend and so on......
> 
> We're JUST friends, right?
> 
> At some point, even (some) women understand the difference and will either drop the friendships or unravel them to arm's length.
> 
> Some people refuse to understand the nuances of relationships and what their behavior might look like to others (ie "I don't give a rat's a$$ about what others think" and so on).
> 
> But please don't assume that just because someone does not get along with her parents, she necessarily must have inappropriate male friendships.


She's 44. I'm same age we are six months apart in age. Not saying it's direct correlation, just giving the history of my choice in women. I clearly need look at myself and counselor brought this out to look for patterns.

She is a mess emotionally and drank entire bottle of wine last night (she not a big person) and passed out. So dealing with lot of emotions right now and pretty fragile.

No way can I accept her as a life partner. Trust is GONE.


----------



## farsidejunky

Doing the right thing is often not easy.

But doing this now is a hell of a lot easier than 5 years from now, with finances and life intertwined.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Sorry that it has come to this. You say that she is very upset and drank a whole bottle of wine. Is she still of the opinion that you are being insecure and possessive or has she offered to drop these "orbiters" who want to get into her pants ?

In other words, is this truly over ?


----------



## turnera

jdawg2015 said:


> I tend to get attractive women who end up having some kind of issue with their father.
> 
> My ex wife always argues with her dad. To this day he is "mean".
> My fiance has father who was constantly running around on her mother and she does not respect him.
> 
> I end up coming along compensating for it as I am generous, kind, and too much nice guy. Rather than conflict I try and pick my battles.
> 
> This is first time dealing with a person who has bunch of beta orbiters. The counselor zeroed in on her about why keeping these guys around (supposedly harmless friends if you ask her) even though it's hurting the primary relationship with me. Seems to trace back to her father and how she relates to men.


So remind me: Did you read No More Mr Nice Guy, Hold On To Your N.U.T.S., and Married Man Sex Life Primer?

Those will help you keep to this. No better time than the present.

And btw, the REAL reason your picker is broken is what you said first - you pick ATTRACTIVE women. Not saying attractive women make bad partners, I'm saying that if you are using that as your MAIN determination of whether you even approach a woman, (1) you're eliminating 70% of the women who don't meet your standards who could have been an amazing partner and wouldn't have taken you so for granted (because we've SEEN all you men look us over and forget we existed cos we're not Pamela Anderson) and (2) attractive women grow up knowing their looks get them 'stuff' and tend to expect men to orbit them. This isn't true for all women of course, but the odds are there.


----------



## tripad

better a break up than a divorce dude .


----------



## Decorum

Jdawg,

I caught up on your thread because you mentioned your now ex-fiance in the other OSF thread.

I am so sorry, I am sure you are experiencing some deep hopelessness ATM, and if you are still in the same place (living quarters) that is going to be that much harder.

I want you to know that we track together on this issue almost exactly. My wife and I have been married 29 years and she "took herself off the market" and has been a one man woman from day one of our engagement. There were some early things we had to work through. We were both 28 (never married) at the time and had to adjust to a LTR.

Your ex's duplicity would have driven me to distraction.

Anyway, I just want to offer you some support here. You sound like an amazing individual, I hope you can be somewhat centered as you work through this.

Take care.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

I sort of know what's happening right now. Well - I'm 90%+ certain of what's happening. 

Your fiancée who has been very determined to employ the tactic of 'willful incomprehension' to continue this nonsense despite your firm warnings is:
1. Now claiming to have had an epiphany. She claims to finally and truly understand your request. This is totally deceitful and simply part of her wiring. Gun to her head she's promising the moon. Ten years from now - with you facing a huge divorce settlement she will be continuing this crap and will play a game of financial chicken with you. 

2. She is hitting your protector circuitry HARD, crying, saying she has no idea what she'll do without you. But please recall, recently you were the controlling prick trying to spoil her fun. During those conversations her subtext was: NO ONE tells me what to do, because I don't NEED anyone. 

3. She's also saying that canceling the wedding will cause her irreparable public humiliation. 


Don't let her guilt you into anything. She was utterly without remorse on this topic. She was setting herself up for a marriage where the monogamy was one sided. She wasn't blunt about it. But that was the consistent message. 

Do NOT continue to sleep with her. She is not like you. She doesn't really understand loyalty. That's a deep wired character trait and you can't change it. 





jdawg2015 said:


> An update after long time. The issue has been under the surface for months. We even agreed to go to pre marriage counselor. We each had an individual session then a joint session back in May. Out of that session, the agreement was no one on one with opposite sex friends, zero contact with any exes. I had voiced my complaint about the late night texts from/to the "guy friends". This one is tough to have a hard boundary as a couple are legit coworkers.
> 
> However, apparently she can't apply common sense and tell the difference between a coworker asking if her customer got a shipment and truly part of work, or the guy from France who visits to Singapore couple times a year. The final nail for me was the French guy, who my fiance has on her own labled him as a "***** chaser" decided to send her a FB chat.
> 
> Him: Hi, we haven't been chatting much (her name), but I have been thinking about you
> Her: Hey hey, yes I am engaged to (my name) and we will be moving to BKK
> Him: Good for you, now looks like I have a reason to visit BKK
> 
> Then they followed up with chatting about a handbag from France she wanted him to get and said she would pay him for it. So, of course he arrived in Singapore and her, me, French dude, and one of my fiancee girlfriends went to lunch all together. To say not happy was an understatement. My fiance did not know I had seen the FB chat as she had left her FB open while using my phone. So, afterwards I confronted and was hit with the "controlling, jealous, etc etc" line of reasoning. Apparently I'm totally insecure and she still claims the text about him thinking about her and coming to visit her was not what he meant, out of context, blah blah blah. Guess she seemed to forget she herself called him a "***** chaser".
> 
> I'll update more as there few more issues along the way. Also found out she has dated two married guys in the past on top of having cheated on her ex husband. Not exactly solid character either. So obviously my trust in her is shattered.
> 
> I'm coming from a very sad place right now as I have basically ended things as feel our values too far apart. We're still going through the reality of it and I have very, very heavy heart. I've read this thread from the beginning and so much of the warnings were laid out in black and white. I've actually thought about this thread and the feedback as well as other sites in searching on how to deal with this. The advice has been spot on.
> 
> There are a total of nine guy friends I'd have to constantly deal with if had not put foot down. That's just not happening for me.
> 
> I'll update more but this is therapy for me to get it off my chest. I'm embarrassed to tell my family and friends wedding is off. Of course I'll be the bad guy villain. Wedding was for October and we were just about to send out the invitations. Devastated is an understatement.
> 
> So sad that I can barely breathe and function as this point. Love her dearly but need strength to protect myself.


----------



## jdawg2015

manfromlamancha said:


> Sorry that it has come to this. You say that she is very upset and drank a whole bottle of wine. Is she still of the opinion that you are being insecure and possessive or has she offered to drop these "orbiters" who want to get into her pants ?
> 
> In other words, is this truly over ?


It's over. Even if she said she sees everything I say was right blah blah blah the damage is just too much.

Not going to be text policeman for next 20 years. Based on all the advice from many many people they tell me she's likely an affair waiting to happen and that most women get rid of other men when the decide to tie the knot. 

It's hard to deal with but I can't ignore the advice. Even the counselor who was very careful to not take sides I could see raise his eyebrows at how she thought some of her antics were just harmless. 

Of course should never did figure out that you don't need to sit in MC if both partners actions are healthy.....


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> I sort of know what's happening right now. Well - I'm 90%+ certain of what's happening.
> 
> Your fiancée who has been very determined to employ the tactic of 'willful incomprehension' to continue this nonsense despite your firm warnings is:
> 1. Now claiming to have had an epiphany. She claims to finally and truly understand your request. This is totally deceitful and simply part of her wiring. Gun to her head she's promising the moon. Ten years from now - with you facing a huge divorce settlement she will be continuing this crap and will play a game of financial chicken with you.
> 
> 2. She is hitting your protector circuitry HARD, crying, saying she has no idea what she'll do without you. But please recall, recently you were the controlling prick trying to spoil her fun. During those conversations her subtext was: NO ONE tells me what to do, because I don't NEED anyone.
> 
> 3. She's also saying that canceling the wedding will cause her irreparable public humiliation.
> 
> 
> Don't let her guilt you into anything. She was utterly without remorse on this topic. She was setting herself up for a marriage where the monogamy was one sided. She wasn't blunt about it. But that was the consistent message.
> 
> Do NOT continue to sleep with her. She is not like you. She doesn't really understand loyalty. That's a deep wired character trait and you can't change it.


Thanks and this is really appreciated. One thing that took me a while to end things was preparing for exactly what you are saying. I had to prepare emotionally.

She is saying I'm self-centered by asking her to give up her "friends" and still says theres no harm in a guy texting that she is the reason to visit BKK.:scratchhead:

I actually asked her, "did you really just say that?"

We sleep in different rooms right now. I'm not gonna lie I am missing her right now and heart broken way worse than thought I would be.

But I also know I can't go back as it was getting to point of paranoia. And if you knew me, you would know that is not the kind of person I am. Counselor in the solo session said it's no suprise I felt this way.

What hurts right now is all the sudden everything in my life makes me a bad person. I was in the Navy as way to pay for college. Got out in 1992. She said, "I think because you were in the military you are so one way about certain things and it's your background causing you to be rigid about other men as my friends". That really pissed me off. I went in Navy because family had no money, now after three degrees later the Navy is a character flaw Never mind the fact that I've been out of Navy for over 20 YEARS!


----------



## sapientia

You are done before you even start. She must be hot and the sex great b/c I can't fathom why you would be sticking with her.

People in their mid 20s might change with time, if highly motivated. In their 40s? Nope.

"It is what it is, and you are who you are".

Good luck.


----------



## jdawg2015

Decorum said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> I caught up on your thread because you mentioned your now ex-fiance in the other OSF thread.
> 
> I am so sorry, I am sure you are experiencing some deep hopelessness ATM, and if you are still in the same place (living quarters) that is going to be that much harder.
> 
> I want you to know that we track together on this issue almost exactly. My wife and I have been married 29 years and she "took herself off the market" and has been a one man woman from day one of our engagement. There were some early things we had to work through. We were both 28 (never married) at the time and had to adjust to a LTR.
> 
> Your ex's duplicity would have driven me to distraction.
> 
> Anyway, I just want to offer you some support here. You sound like an amazing individual, I hope you can be somewhat centered as you work through this.
> 
> Take care.


I really appreciate the helpful vibes. She can be an amazing person but has a serious character flaw. I'm ready to just crawl in a deep hole and rot away right now. 

Given the right circumstances where she would feel not getting enough attention, or tension in the marriage (work stress, life challenges etc) I could see her turning to other men. I base this on things she has said and can see some subconcious thought.

I asked her a hypothetical question that if she was upset with me or felt I was not paying enough attention to her, what signals she would give me since that created issues in her previous marriage. Her reply was, "do you think I'd cheat on you, why would I do that if you are giving me what I need". My heart went in my throat when she said it. 
She then followed up with, "when people cheat the relationship is over anyways". I can bet you if I asked her she would never recall the conversation.

My ex wife and I it would have been unthinkable to be out 1:1 with another person. And we both have/had circle of COUPLE friends. I'm not even married to my ex wife but she's more loyal a person to me than my damn fiance. That's messed up.


----------



## jdawg2015

sapientia said:


> You are done before you even start. She must be hot and the sex great b/c I can't fathom why you would be sticking with her.
> 
> People in their mid 20s might change with time, if highly motivated. In their 40s? Nope.
> 
> "It is what it is, and you are who you are".
> 
> Good luck.


This ^^^^^. Amen.

She is actually a very pretty woman and has a lot of sweet things about her. But she's got a serious character flaw with male attention. 

I now see why nobody has married her and she's been single since 2003. I even asked her why she had not been married by now as seems she what she wanted. Out of all her past BFs (that I know about), only one really made sense. And of course if you ask other questions you never hear her mention ANYTHING negative that she did, always the guys fault.


----------



## sapientia

Dodge the bullet, Dawg. Just lean to the left a little... then run like hell.


----------



## jdawg2015

turnera said:


> So remind me: Did you read No More Mr Nice Guy, Hold On To Your N.U.T.S., and Married Man Sex Life Primer?
> 
> Those will help you keep to this. No better time than the present.
> 
> And btw, the REAL reason your picker is broken is what you said first - you pick ATTRACTIVE women. Not saying attractive women make bad partners, I'm saying that if you are using that as your MAIN determination of whether you even approach a woman, (1) you're eliminating 70% of the women who don't meet your standards who could have been an amazing partner and wouldn't have taken you so for granted (because we've SEEN all you men look us over and forget we existed cos we're not Pamela Anderson) and (2) attractive women grow up knowing their looks get them 'stuff' and tend to expect men to orbit them. This isn't true for all women of course, but the odds are there.


I will read the last two in the list but I need a mental break from it. My heart is shattered in a million pieces right now. I am training for an Ironman race and using that to try and help so I can sleep. 

Can't believe it's over.


----------



## jdawg2015

sapientia said:


> Dodge the bullet, Dawg. Just lean to the left a little... then run like hell.


Not so easy to run. She rented out her apartment and quit her job in preparation for my job change and move.

Here's another winner statement she made: "I can hang out at my friends gym, she told me there lot of gay guys in there to she has to deal with".

So can already see it now, some guy she'll think is gay will end up in her phone and voila, he's not gay..... She's an idiot.


----------



## MEM2020

The only thing you've said that I disagree with is the idiot comment. 

This is a woman who argues with the tenacity and style of a court room lawyer. She's smart. 

She likes the attention. And she knew you wouldn't tolerate it. She knowingly chose to continue doing this because she didn't believe you were strong enough to walk away.





jdawg2015 said:


> This ^^^^^. Amen.
> 
> She is actually a very pretty woman and has a lot of sweet things about her. But she's got a serious character flaw with male attention.
> 
> I now see why nobody has married her and she's been single since 2003. I even asked her why she had not been married by now as seems she what she wanted. Out of all her past BFs (that I know about), only one really made sense. And of course if you ask other questions you never hear her mention ANYTHING negative that she did, always the guys fault.





jdawg2015 said:


> Not so easy to run. She rented out her apartment and quit her job in preparation for my job change and move.
> 
> Here's another winner statement she made: "I can hang out at my friends gym, she told me there lot of gay guys in there to she has to deal with".
> 
> So can already see it now, some guy she'll think is gay will end up in her phone and voila, he's not gay..... She's an idiot.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> Unemployed and homeless for a man that doesn't trust her one bit..she definitely is.>
> Anyway..better to call things off..for her too..
> she would have felt suffocated. Wouldn't have lasted anyway.


Actually I'm the one that felt smothered buy the slew of guy friends, several of which has very keen interest in her but she denies. Even her best friend asked me one day if I noticed anything about a certain guy, I said yes and she goes, "I wondered if you picked up on it". How's that for being **** tested 

I should type out all the things that happened. Even I question why I did not cut things sooner. Love is blind.

Her own SISTER told me one day, you should talk to (her name) as there are some people on her Facebook that definitely should not be there.

One of her friends even asked my fiancé if I knew that she was having 2 hour lunches every other week with this one guy. She said, "oh yeah, (my name) has met him". I met him ONE time because I was working while she was having 2 hour lunches with the other guy. This guy not a coworker and she no longer even worked in that field.... My fiancee' friend even asked me about it, and she asked out of concernt that appeared inappropriate.
My fiance would tell me when she would go to lunch but then after this became an issue (felt way to much and too often) and I brought it up as to no longer being comfortable with it, she just said I'm being unreasonable and she'd just no tell me about it so she didn't have to listen to me complain about it. How's that for trust?

Then, after couple weeks when she stopped going to lunch with him, he called up one day. I was sitting next to fiance. She clearly was not comfortable knowing I was sitting there so her responses were short. We were going on a vacation to the US the next day. He says to her, "let's catch up it's been a week since we had lunch". She said I can't going to US tomorrow. Then he follows up TWO more times saying, "come on let's catch up it will be while until you're back". So you tell me if you'd be comfortable with a friend who guilts and pushes your romantic partner to have lunch with him alone. 

Every single person I've consulted has told me her behavior is odd, poor boundaries, poor values, etc. I'm not perfect person but her way of handling OSF is just not acceptable to any normal person....


----------



## farsidejunky

OSF is one thing. Deliberately surrounding ones self with orbiters is another.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> OSF is one thing. Deliberately surrounding ones self with orbiters is another.


If you were married, I'd say this _might_ be one of the very few times that a mild version of the "dread game" might be warranted. Meaning, mirror her behaviour.

But you're not married. You should be in the throws of love and planning your marriage and everything's about your new life. She's not. She's acting like she's deliberately trying to make you jealous maybe, or making sure that she can still have some vestiges of her single life post-marriage, or... just doesn't want to be tied down yet.

I'd sit her down, and just say that you don't think the timing is right to get married. Maybe she needs to be single for a while to go and figure out what, and who, she wants to be with and commit to.

And then let her go. 

If she drops everything and makes your upcoming marriage a priority, she's yours. If she doesn't, she never was yours, and you just dodged a bullet.


----------



## Decorum

jdawg2015 said:


> I really appreciate the helpful vibes. She can be an amazing person but has a serious character flaw. I'm ready to just crawl in a deep hole and rot away right now.
> 
> Given the right circumstances where she would feel not getting enough attention, or tension in the marriage (work stress, life challenges etc) I could see her turning to other men. I base this on things she has said and can see some subconcious thought.
> 
> I asked her a hypothetical question that if she was upset with me or felt I was not paying enough attention to her, what signals she would give me since that created issues in her previous marriage. Her reply was, "do you think I'd cheat on you, why would I do that if you are giving me what I need". My heart went in my throat when she said it.
> She then followed up with, "when people cheat the relationship is over anyways". I can bet you if I asked her she would never recall the conversation.
> 
> My ex wife and I it would have been unthinkable to be out 1:1 with another person. And we both have/had circle of COUPLE friends. I'm not even married to my ex wife but she's more loyal a person to me than my damn fiance. That's messed up.



=I wont cheat on you if I am happy. SMH

She has no idea how that sounds because she lacks humility and objectivity. 

In other words deep deep entitlement.

On the other hand I am sure she was wonderful to be with, energy, excitement, she responded well to attention. A woman like that can make you feel like a million bucks.

Mrs Decorum is an intelligent, yes and strong willed women with strong personal boundaries, she has always been an intellectual challenge for me, she understands the importance of contentment and creates her own happiness. I believe she has a higher emotional intelligence quotient then me (pinky and the brain higher ha ha) and is very very practical. She definitely does not need me, yet she stays engaged based on these things.

I used the testosterone method to select her so yeah, I got lucky.

I say this hoping that adding a little objectivity to your pain at the moment might alleviate it some.

Knowing what I know now, if I were dating I would definitely date a woman like your ex at least for a while, but for a LTR I would look for a woman who did not need me, or anyone for that mater, contentment is so important, but someone who was willing and capable of making choices to make another person happy without expecting anything in return in the short term.

Not talking co-dependent self sacrifice, just the maturity of say a parent like character who can put off short term fulfillment for the long term well being of someone they love. (Again not talking about long term neglect or anything like that) Someone like that is so worthy of appreciation, love, loyalty, and effort.


SO when you flop back (from painful bond breaking) to the list of things that make her a un-viable partner, if it helps then add my items to the list.

I really wish you well.
Take care.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> she has TONS of girlfriends and 3/4 male friends (one of these is obese) and she has orbiters???Why not call them friends?
> Well let me tell you ..I have at least a dozen..we're not very close but I DO go out 1:1 with them..my partner knows..e knows were to find me most of the times...not always..sometimes if I'm nearby their workplace I'll call them to have lunch together ... no big deal...
> some are single, some are married...these are people I've known for many years and the idea of being romantically involved with them never crossed my mind...
> 
> 
> OP, so everyone knows what your fiancè is up to, who she's going out with, how often...not exactly the typical cheater behaviour...but anyway..
> homeless, unemployed, ****ty friend, ****ty sister (what sister acts like that???not even mine...)>
> You are 100% right not to want to marry her..you can't deal with her lifestyle...and attitudes...*it would never work.*
> She's in her 40s..not a 20 something..
> You should find someone who agrees with you on no 1:1 etc etc wiith same sex people...
> (she will probably rant everytime you look at another' woman for what in her opinion is too long but anyway..:grin2: ).
> 
> :wink2:


Bugged, you are free to post whatever you want but realize two REAL people are dealing with an emotional crisis that involved a pending marriage. Just be aware that being flippant with your posts can actually be hurtful. Food for thought.

With that said, ask youself if you spend 2 hour lunches with those "guy friends" every couple weeks, sending them selfies of yourself to them (not nudes but her hair, etc) and exchanging texts literally from 6 am to 12 at night.

How about during one of those lunches shes discusses a conversation me and my fiance had, she got his opinion on something we did not agree on and then that night said to me, "but (his name) would have no problem with it". 

There's a whole lot of information I have not typed out.


----------



## jdawg2015

Decorum said:


> =I wont cheat on you if I am happy. SMH
> 
> She has no idea how that sounds because she lacks humility and objectivity.
> 
> In other words deep deep entitlement.
> 
> On the other hand I am sure she was wonderful to be with, energy, excitement, she responded well to attention. A woman like that can make you feel like a million bucks.
> 
> Mrs Decorum is an intelligent, yes and strong willed women with strong personal boundaries, she has always been an intellectual challenge for me, she understands the importance of contentment and creates her own happiness. I believe she has a higher emotional intelligence quotient then me (pinky and the brain higher ha ha) and is very very practical. She definitely does not need me, yet she stays engaged based on these things.
> 
> I used the testosterone method to select her so yeah, I got lucky.
> 
> I say this hoping that adding a little objectivity to your pain at the moment might alleviate it some.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, if I were dating I would definitely date a woman like your ex at least for a while, but for a LTR I would look for a woman who did not need me, or anyone for that mater, contentment is so important, but someone who was willing and capable of making choices to make another person happy without expecting anything in return in the short term.
> 
> Not talking co-dependent self sacrifice, just the maturity of say a parent like character who can put off short term fulfillment for the long term well being of someone they love. (Again not talking about long term neglect or anything like that) Someone like that is so worthy of appreciation, love, loyalty, and effort.
> 
> 
> SO when you flop back (from painful bond breaking) to the list of things that make her a un-viable partner, if it helps then add my items to the list.
> 
> I really wish you well.
> Take care.


Thanks, this really sums up how I feel and obviously you get the jist of what's happened to us as a couple. She's not ready to make the choices that lead to a strong healthy marriage.

I truly love her so letting go is not something I'm truly prepared for. I could never have imagined things getting to this point.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bugged said:


> she has TONS of girlfriends and 3/4 male friends (one of these is obese) and she has orbiters???Why not call them friends?
> Well let me tell you ..I have at least a dozen..we're not very close but I DO go out 1:1 with them..my partner knows..e knows were to find me most of the times...not always..sometimes if I'm nearby their workplace I'll call them to have lunch together ... no big deal...
> some are single, some are married...these are people I've known for many years and the idea of being romantically involved with them never crossed my mind...
> 
> 
> OP, so everyone knows what your fiancè is up to, who she's going out with, how often...not exactly the typical cheater behaviour...but anyway..
> homeless, unemployed, ****ty friend, ****ty sister (what sister acts like that???not even mine...)>
> You are 100% right not to want to marry her..you can't deal with her lifestyle...and attitudes...*it would never work.*
> She's in her 40s..not a 20 something..
> You should find someone who agrees with you on no 1:1 etc etc wiith same sex people...
> (she will probably rant everytime you look at another' woman for what in her opinion is too long but anyway..:grin2: ).
> 
> :wink2:


Maybe read everything and then take ALL of it into consideration instead of relying on only the most superficial of details to make your arguments.


----------



## GusPolinski

jdawg2015 said:


> Thanks, this really sums up how I feel and obviously you get the jist of what's happened to us as a couple. She's not ready to make the choices that lead to a strong healthy marriage.
> 
> I truly love her so letting go is not something I'm truly prepared for. I could never have imagined things getting to this point.


I thought you'd ended things w/ her...?


----------



## jdawg2015

GusPolinski said:


> I thought you'd ended things w/ her...?


I did but it's hard to let go emotionally. We still live in same condo still. Our lives entirely intertwined. Everything thing in there we picked together, etc


----------



## GusPolinski

jdawg2015 said:


> I did but it's hard to let go emotionally. We still live in same condo still. Our lives entirely intertwined. Everything thing in there we picked together, etc


Ah. Sorry man.

It's for the best. She was never going to change.


----------



## jdawg2015

GusPolinski said:


> She was never going to change.


^^^ This is what has been independently repeated too me by many people who've I've reached out too for help on how to handle things.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

How soon are you relocating for work?

And - if it isn't very, very soon why had she already quit her job?

See the thing about quitting her job isn't about the money per se. In your own very low key way you've made it clear her income wasn't necessary. 

The bigger issue is that by quitting her job she was binding herself more tightly to you via dependency. 

Has she begun looking for another job? Because until she starts doing that, I'd say she's flat out refusing to accept your decision. 

You might want to press her hard on this point as I'm guessing that you didn't encourage her to quit.







jdawg2015 said:


> ^^^ This is what has been independently repeated too me by many people who've I've reached out too for help on how to handle things.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> How soon are you relocating for work?
> 
> And - if it isn't very, very soon why had she already quit her job?
> 
> See the thing about quitting her job isn't about the money per se. In your own very low key way you've made it clear her income wasn't necessary.
> 
> The bigger issue is that by quitting her job she was binding herself more tightly to you via dependency.
> 
> Has she begun looking for another job? Because until she starts doing that, I'd say she's flat out refusing to accept your decision.
> 
> You might want to press her hard on this point as I'm guessing that you didn't encourage her to quit.


Mid August giving up current place to move. She gave up job earlier as we had a vacation to Europe and she did not have enough leave to go and they refused let her go with unpaid leave. I let her decide but definitely had not foreseen this happening. 

The FB text with French dude was the "I have had enough" point.

She has texted me today that none of those guy friends are important to her and she had no problem getting rid of them and wants to make me her priority and take care of me. Of course previous to this, I was told I'm being controlling yada yada yada. Never mind what she was doing was eroding and undermining our relationship and she kept doing despite letting her know it was bothering me.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

Yes - recall that epiphany I predicted - well low and behold the waters have parted and now she can see the truth. Hallelujah.

Except you had to actually END the relationship and cancel the wedding to get here. This is how your 'marriage' would have played out. She engaged in a combination of: 
- willful incomprehension 
- blame shifting 

Her next move will be interesting. She will either quickly find another job or she will accuse you of harming her financially and press for some sort of payment/commitment to make her whole. 

You ought to think about what you think is financially fair in a worst case scenario. 

Just remind yourself that in the U.S. - if this was playing out 10 years from now - she would be evicerating you financially. Even if by then she'd had a full blown physical affair - most states are 'no fault' where divorce is concerned. 

And if you are having any doubts - read is thread again from the start. Slowly. You gave her many warnings. 




jdawg2015 said:


> Mid August giving up current place to move. She gave up job earlier as we had a vacation to Europe and she did not have enough leave to go and they refused let her go with unpaid leave. I let her decide but definitely had not foreseen this happening.
> 
> The FB text with French dude was the "I have had enough" point.
> 
> She has texted me today that none of those guy friends are important to her and she had no problem getting rid of them and wants to make me her priority and take care of me. Of course previous to this, I was told I'm being controlling yada yada yada. Never mind what she was doing was eroding and undermining our relationship and she kept doing despite letting her know it was bothering me.


----------



## MEM2020

BTW 

Any promises she makes now - she can later claim were made under severe financial duress and were therefore meaningless. 




jdawg2015 said:


> Mid August giving up current place to move. She gave up job earlier as we had a vacation to Europe and she did not have enough leave to go and they refused let her go with unpaid leave. I let her decide but definitely had not foreseen this happening.
> 
> The FB text with French dude was the "I have had enough" point.
> 
> She has texted me today that none of those guy friends are important to her and she had no problem getting rid of them and wants to make me her priority and take care of me. Of course previous to this, I was told I'm being controlling yada yada yada. Never mind what she was doing was eroding and undermining our relationship and she kept doing despite letting her know it was bothering me.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> BTW
> 
> Any promises she makes now - she can later claim were made under severe financial duress and were therefore meaningless.


I even told her last night that it feels like anything she says now is only done because being forced and should have been done, on her own, long ago.

What normal woman labels her guy friend as a puss-e chaser and expects her fiance to except the guy as solid. I told her he's gone or I'm gone. She deleted him from FB on the spot but the damage had been done and the bell had been rung.


----------



## MEM2020

Read your thread again from the start. You gave her a series of extreme warnings over an extended timeframe. This was NOT a communication issue. This is a hard wired character issue. 

This wasn't a mistake on her part. It was a series of concious choices made over an extended time period. 

The one thing she cannot claim at this point is that she's surprised. You were VERY clear. 




jdawg2015 said:


> I even told her last night that it feels like anything she says now is only done because being forced and should have been done, on her own, long ago.
> 
> What normal woman labels her guy friend as a puss-e chaser and expects her fiance to except the guy as solid. I told her he's gone or I'm gone. She deleted him from FB on the spot but the damage had been done and the bell had been rung.


----------



## MEM2020

When will she start looking for a job?





jdawg2015 said:


> I even told her last night that it feels like anything she says now is only done because being forced and should have been done, on her own, long ago.
> 
> What normal woman labels her guy friend as a puss-e chaser and expects her fiance to except the guy as solid. I told her he's gone or I'm gone. She deleted him from FB on the spot but the damage had been done and the bell had been rung.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> When will she start looking for a job?


Today she texted, "thinks it's time I look for a job and update my CV".


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> Flippant? I said exactly what I think.
> You don't trust this woman, you don't like the way she acts with her male friends...*it's impossible to have a relationship with someone you don't trust*. Period.
> 
> Maybe she's acting silly..I don't share my life online that much and I'm not into texting..some people definitely are...expecially asian people in my experience...
> Maybe she thinks it's cool to have a French friend that can bring you fancy bags form Paris...doesn't make her a cheater...I honestly think she doesn't have the skills for that>
> 
> the other point was the no to 1:1 with opposite sex people ultimatum...I don't know how many women in their 40s with a circle of friends could actually accept that..maybe it's a cultural thing I don't know.
> I know I would not accept that...
> I'm sorry for your situation...but I also see the situation of your fiancè..she apparently trusted you enough to quit her job (why so soon?) and rent her flat...:nerd:
> I honestly thinkyou did the right thing anyway.


You have made two references to culture. Let me stop you right there. The typical profile of a Chinese Singaporean couple, especially married, is conservative. It's NOT common to have OSFs texting personal stuff outside of work and/or 1:1 interaction. This is NOT a cultural thing.

Even my counselor told me this is commonly a high risk thing that people get wrong and that once one of the spouses has an issue with it, that problems will brew if it's not curtailed. 

My previous gf was a Chinese and let me tell you, ain't no way on this planet a 1:1 OSF friend would have happened. She was a then 37 year old lawyer with huge circle of friends in a male dominated field. We broke because just different lifestyles and the same thing that drew us together (different walks of life/careers) also made it difficult to gel in the end. Work hours, somewhat distant apart (1.25 hours by train) so not really daily together, etc.

Like I said, your interaction with guy friends is not constant day after day and feeding suitors which is what she was doing. I listen to all feedback but I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

This is not like, "oh my god she got a text". I'm not a jealous guy like that in the least. When a guy texts that his entire reason for traveling to another country is your future spouse, "Houston, we have a problem"

There's more to the story but honestly your tone comes across as flippant and you view OSFs as fine. But you need to look at the whole picture and does seem like you cherry picked some facts.


----------



## jsmart

jdawg2015 said:


> An update after long time. The issue has been under the surface for months. We even agreed to go to pre marriage counselor. We each had an individual session then a joint session back in May. Out of that session, the agreement was no one on one with opposite sex friends, zero contact with any exes. I had voiced my complaint about the late night texts from/to the "guy friends". This one is tough to have a hard boundary as a couple are legit coworkers.
> 
> However, apparently she can't apply common sense and tell the difference between a coworker asking if her customer got a shipment and truly part of work, or the guy from France who visits to Singapore couple times a year. The final nail for me was the French guy, who my fiance has on her own labled him as a "***** chaser" decided to send her a FB chat.
> 
> Him: Hi, we haven't been chatting much (her name), but I have been thinking about you
> Her: Hey hey, yes I am engaged to (my name) and we will be moving to BKK
> Him: Good for you, now looks like I have a reason to visit BKK
> 
> Then they followed up with chatting about a handbag from France she wanted him to get and said she would pay him for it. So, of course he arrived in Singapore and her, me, French dude, and one of my fiancee girlfriends went to lunch all together. To say not happy was an understatement. My fiance did not know I had seen the FB chat as she had left her FB open while using my phone. So, afterwards I confronted and was hit with the "controlling, jealous, etc etc" line of reasoning. Apparently I'm totally insecure and she still claims the text about him thinking about her and coming to visit her was not what he meant, out of context, blah blah blah. Guess she seemed to forget she herself called him a "***** chaser".
> 
> I'll update more as there few more issues along the way. Also found out *she has dated two married guys in the past on top of having cheated on her ex husband. * Not exactly solid character either. So obviously my trust in her is shattered.
> 
> I'm coming from a very sad place right now as I have basically ended things as feel our values too far apart. We're still going through the reality of it and I have very, very heavy heart. I've read this thread from the beginning and so much of the warnings were laid out in black and white. I've actually thought about this thread and the feedback as well as other sites in searching on how to deal with this. The advice has been spot on.
> 
> There are a total of nine guy friends I'd have to constantly deal with if had not put foot down. That's just not happening for me.
> 
> I'll update more but this is therapy for me to get it off my chest. I'm embarrassed to tell my family and friends wedding is off. Of course I'll be the bad guy villain. Wedding was for October and we were just about to send out the invitations. Devastated is an understatement.
> 
> So sad that I can barely breathe and function as this point. Love her dearly but need strength to protect myself.


This woman was strictly for short term relation or friends with benefits only. The fact that she cheated on her husband should have automatically disqualified her but on top of that she was in relations with 2 married men. That is just as big a dis qualifier. Go read Loveshack's OW section to get a glimpse into the character of the women that would let themselves become a married man's side piece. 

Consider yourself blessed for dodging that bullet. She is not marriage material.


----------



## jdawg2015

jsmart said:


> This woman was strictly for short term relation or friends with benefits only. The fact that she cheated on her husband should have automatically disqualified her but on top of that she was in relations with 2 married men. That is just as big a dis qualifier. Go read Loveshack's OW section to get a glimpse into the character of the women that would let themselves become a married man's side piece.
> 
> Consider yourself blessed for dodging that bullet. She is not marriage material.


The affair she had was a red flag but at a point that I could understand. The dealing with the fact she dated two married men (one she told me, other I know about be she does not know I know found out another way..), on top of all the other stuff is where things don't work.

If she had said, "gee, I regret things I've done and learned my lession etc" that would be one thing. But the more I listen the more I realize that she has not learned a thing. Always someone else's fault.

As a person, she's got a huge heart and I love her to bits. But as a life partner, at some point, I predict she would fail the boundary test when the going got tough.


----------



## jsmart

jdawg2015 said:


> The affair she had was a red flag but at a point that I could understand. The dealing with the fact she dated two married men (one she told me, other I know about be she does not know I know found out another way..), on top of all the other stuff is where things don't work.
> 
> If she had said, "gee, I regret things I've done and learned my lession etc" that would be one thing. But the more I listen the more I realize that she has not learned a thing. Always someone else's fault.
> 
> As a person, she's got a huge heart and I love her to bits. But as a life partner, at some point, I predict *she would fail the boundary test when the going got tough*.


You should always listen to your gut. You may have been dazzled by her looks which caused you to doubt yourself. The woman was probably going from man to man for 12 years. If she's as good looking as you imply, she could have locked down a good man long ago but she likes male attention. I'm sure some of her "friends," are actually FWB. The rest are orbiters that she keeps in a friend zone until she has to break glass for an emergency.


----------



## jdawg2015

jsmart said:


> I'm sure some of her "friends," are actually FWB. The rest are orbiters that she keeps in a friend zone until she has to break glass for an emergency.


I basically told her a much too. Understandably she wasn't happy but exactly what's going on.

Two guys she says are "like brothers" are so obviously interested. Her response is, "as long as I'm not into them, what's the problem". Doesn't work that way. 

I had woman at work sending me flirty chats with clear interest. I actually screen shot a couple and showed my fiancé. Her immediate response was, "I want you no where near her." But yet she could not see why I felt same way about the so called guy "friends".

I'm not exactly chop liver but she definitely attracts attention. I could care less as used to it and have an edge that draws in attention myself. Even worse is when we are together, it draws in even more women to focus on me as well but I don't play that game and my fiance would never call me a player type. She's used to it so 99.9% of the time most guys don't realize she's heard every pick up line in the book.

The issue is the circle of friends. They are beta males she deems safe but can't see they are there for the wrong reasons. Only two of her male single friends I would actually say are "safe".


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,

Did you miss the bit where Jdawg describes how she confessed to cheating on her first husband? 

If she cheated on her first H, why is it you think she lacks the skills to cheat now? 





Bugged said:


> Flippant? I said exactly what I think.
> You don't trust this woman, you don't like the way she acts with her male friends...*it's impossible to have a relationship with someone you don't trust*. Period.
> 
> Maybe she's acting silly..I don't share my life online that much and I'm not into texting..some people definitely are...expecially asian people in my experience...
> Maybe she thinks it's cool to have a French friend that can bring you fancy bags form Paris...doesn't make her a cheater...I honestly think she doesn't have the skills for that>
> 
> the other point was the no to 1:1 with opposite sex people ultimatum...I don't know how many women in their 40s with a circle of friends could actually accept that..maybe it's a cultural thing I don't know.
> I know I would not accept that...
> I'm sorry for your situation...but I also see the situation of your fiancè..she apparently trusted you enough to quit her job (why so soon?) and rent her flat...:nerd:
> I honestly thinkyou did the right thing anyway.


----------



## turnera

jdawg2015 said:


> Today she texted, "thinks it's time I look for a job and update my CV".


Your reply:
I guess so, since we will be living under separate roofs by September 1 and you'll be paying your own way.


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> Mid August giving up current place to move. She gave up job earlier as we had a vacation to Europe and she did not have enough leave to go and they refused let her go with unpaid leave. I let her decide but definitely had not foreseen this happening.
> 
> The FB text with French dude was the "I have had enough" point.
> 
> She has texted me today that none of those guy friends are important to her and she had no problem getting rid of them and wants to make me her priority and take care of me. Of course previous to this, I was told I'm being controlling yada yada yada. Never mind what she was doing was eroding and undermining our relationship and she kept doing despite letting her know it was bothering me.


Hold the line, buddy.

This attitude will last for exactly as long as she thinks you're out the door. The minute you come back, it will vanish and history will be re-written: you'll again be the controlling guy.


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> I basically told her a much too. Understandably she wasn't happy but exactly what's going on.
> 
> Two guys she says are "like brothers" are so obviously interested. Her response is, "as long as I'm not into them, what's the problem". Doesn't work that way.
> 
> I had woman at work sending me flirty chats with clear interest. I actually screen shot a couple and showed my fiancé. Her immediate response was, "I want you no where near her." But yet she could not see why I felt same way about the so called guy "friends".
> 
> I'm not exactly chop liver but she definitely attracts attention. I could care less as used to it and have an edge that draws in attention myself. Even worse is when we are together, it draws in even more women to focus on me as well but I don't play that game and my fiance would never call me a player type. She's used to it so 99.9% of the time most guys don't realize she's heard every pick up line in the book.
> 
> The issue is the circle of friends. They are beta males she deems safe but can't see they are there for the wrong reasons. Only two of her male single friends I would actually say are "safe".


Consider this:

I think -- right now -- she is trying to stick you back into the "beta orbiter" zone and be her safe refuge while she figures out who to glom onto next.

You'll see this repentant attitude until she feels safe enough to continue her single yet engaged lifestyle, or she just up and finds someone else to roll out the red carpet for her.

Sorry man, this is standard MO.


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

You screen shot a woman flirting and she says: stay away

Then you say: but she could not understand why I wanted her to do the same thing....

This is where you and I see it totally different. 

She absolutely understood you. Just wasn't interested in making that sacrifice. 

This is the 'lying straight to your face' model. She knew exactly what your issue was. But pretended not to. 

Because the alternative was to say: I just love all this attention so much, that I can't let go of it. I'm sorry that's a deal breaker for you, because I DO want to be married, just not enough to give up my adult toys.







marduk said:


> Consider this:
> 
> I think -- right now -- she is trying to stick you back into the "beta orbiter" zone and be her safe refuge while she figures out who to glom onto next.
> 
> You'll see this repentant attitude until she feels safe enough to continue her single yet engaged lifestyle, or she just up and finds someone else to roll out the red carpet for her.
> 
> Sorry man, this is standard MO.


----------



## leetjay

Jdawg where are you from? We have a hotdog place close to us called Jdawgs LOL

Dude where do I begin? You and your lady sound exactly like me and my wife. When I got married my idea of loyalty is that the two partners put each other first and don't let the opposite sex get close. Of course we all have to have friends but when it comes down to it you don't let another woman or man into your life enough to get too close to them. Her idea is very different. She thinks it's okay to have close guys friends because she grew up in an all boy family and she is more comfortable around guys etc etc blah blah blah bull****!

We have been married for 23 years Jdawg. I have put my trust in her many many times. I figure I need to trust my wife to the point that she gives me a reason not to trust her. Well it started very early on. She admitted she was still in love with another guy just months after we got married. Then a couple of years into our marriage I found out that she would secretly go to lunch with another guy without telling me, no, actually lying and telling me that she never would only to find out later she had. They got too close she held his hand a few times they cuddled etc. No sex or anything but still. years went by then in 2010 she met a guy on FB and the four of us became friends (me, my wife, him, his wife). Turns out she was secretly texting him for a long time talking about a future life together and she admitted to falling in love with him. Since 2010 she has had probably 5 other emotional affairs and she keeps pushing it farther each time. This year alone she met several guys playing Words With Friends in their local area and she secretly met up with two of them. The one guy she fell for she met up with him over 10 times!!! They talked a lot, hugged, cuddled, told each other they loved each other. Make my blood boil just telling you about this! Many times she has said she is done with having guy friends and she is okay with that so that we can work on our marriage. Then after a time she goes back to wanting guy friends and finds herself back on social media chatting it up and wanting to see guys for some sick reason. I honestly don't get it cuz we really are good friends and have fun together. She has a problem obviously.

My point is, people like her will never want to let go of needing other guys in their life. It's not like you are jealous or not trusting. IN the case of my wife, she always just thinks they will be "just friends" but it indefinitely always escalates into something more serious and threatens our marriage.

One day you might look back, like me, and regret ever knowing her. There are women out there who won't do that to you and who will have the same ideas in a relationship as you do. My advice is go find those same people who have the same values as you.

T


----------



## jdawg2015

One thing that repeats in my head is her lack of empathy about how I feel and why I feel the way I do. Not even a simple, "I can understand why you would feel the way you do, etc etc". 

I go out of my way to avoid situations like she created because I know how it would feel. She never uses any words that would put me at ease. I'm always the controlling prick, etc.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> Flippant? I said exactly what I think.
> You don't trust this woman, you don't like the way she acts with her male friends...*it's impossible to have a relationship with someone you don't trust*. Period.
> 
> Maybe she's acting silly..I don't share my life online that much and I'm not into texting..some people definitely are...expecially asian people in my experience...
> Maybe she thinks it's cool to have a French friend that can bring you fancy bags form Paris...doesn't make her a cheater...I honestly think she doesn't have the skills for that>
> 
> the other point was the no to 1:1 with opposite sex people ultimatum...I don't know how many women in their 40s with a circle of friends could actually accept that..maybe it's a cultural thing I don't know.
> I know I would not accept that...
> I'm sorry for your situation...but I also see the situation of your fiancè..she apparently trusted you enough to quit her job (why so soon?) and rent her flat...:nerd:
> I honestly thinkyou did the right thing anyway.


Bugged, I work for a European company but I'm an Ameriican. I have European coworkers from Germany, Austria, Belgium, Holland, and the UK. The typical MO is not to have 1:1. And I get to see how people act when alone on biz travel so I have a pretty good data sample if you will.

Most modernized societies, no 1:1 with OSF when married is a cultural norm. So insinuating it's a jealousy thing as you have done is a bit coy. She can gladly choose to do that and as I told her, I also have a choice. So she can gladly choose to go out with these guys and I can gladly part ways. So that consequence feels controlling to her as she knows I meant it. 

The texting and FB crap is a surrogate for the 1:1 and I had enough. 

I have to wonder if you are French. Because they are not exactly solid and accept the fact the their President is carrying a mistress while in office. Not an endearing trait....


----------



## Decorum

leetjay said:


> Jdawg where are you from? We have a hotdog place close to us called Jdawgs LOL
> 
> Dude where do I begin? You and your lady sound exactly like me and my wife. When I got married my idea of loyalty is that the two partners put each other first and don't let the opposite sex get close. Of course we all have to have friends but when it comes down to it you don't let another woman or man into your life enough to get too close to them. Her idea is very different. She thinks it's okay to have close guys friends because she grew up in an all boy family and she is more comfortable around guys etc etc blah blah blah bull****!
> 
> We have been married for 23 years Jdawg. I have put my trust in her many many times. I figure I need to trust my wife to the point that she gives me a reason not to trust her. Well it started very early on. She admitted she was still in love with another guy just months after we got married. Then a couple of years into our marriage I found out that she would secretly go to lunch with another guy without telling me, no, actually lying and telling me that she never would only to find out later she had. They got too close she held his hand a few times they cuddled etc. No sex or anything but still. years went by then in 2010 she met a guy on FB and the four of us became friends (me, my wife, him, his wife). Turns out she was secretly texting him for a long time talking about a future life together and she admitted to falling in love with him. Since 2010 she has had probably 5 other emotional affairs and she keeps pushing it farther each time. This year alone she met several guys playing Words With Friends in their local area and she secretly met up with two of them. The one guy she fell for she met up with him over 10 times!!! They talked a lot, hugged, cuddled, told each other they loved each other. Make my blood boil just telling you about this! Many times she has said she is done with having guy friends and she is okay with that so that we can work on our marriage. Then after a time she goes back to wanting guy friends and finds herself back on social media chatting it up and wanting to see guys for some sick reason. I honestly don't get it cuz we really are good friends and have fun together. She has a problem obviously.
> 
> My point is, people like her will never want to let go of needing other guys in their life. It's not like you are jealous or not trusting. IN the case of my wife, she always just thinks they will be "just friends" but it indefinitely always escalates into something more serious and threatens our marriage.
> 
> One day you might look back, like me, and regret ever knowing her. There are women out there who won't do that to you and who will have the same ideas in a relationship as you do. My advice is go find those same people who have the same values as you.
> 
> T


Leetjay, do you seriously believe that you wife has not had sex with any of these men.

When she allows another man to meet her emotional needs she will fall in live with him, its how a woman is wired. 

when a woman is in love with a man, sex with him becomes irresistible, period!

You are pegging my self-delusion/rugsweeping meter, sorry for you.


----------



## Decorum

jdawg2015 said:


> One thing that repeats in my head is her lack of empathy about how I feel and why I feel the way I do. Not even a simple, "I can understand why you would feel the way you do, etc etc".
> 
> I go out of my way to avoid situations like she created because I know how it would feel. She never uses any words that would put me at ease. I'm always the controlling prick, etc.


Sympathy/empathy is the lifeblood of love. 

It why you ACT to meet the other persons needs.
Its one of the first things to go as resentment grows.
They are in direct opposition to entitlement (which is a form of spiritual blindness).
When these are absent it is a sign that the relationship is OVER!
Btw women understand this and will blame you for not recognizing that it was over, they just did not have the courage to tell you before they moved on (i.e. cheated).




MEM11363 said:


> Jdawg,
> 
> You screen shot a woman flirting and she says: stay away
> 
> Then you say: but she could not understand why I wanted her to do the same thing....
> 
> This is where you and I see it totally different.
> 
> She absolutely understood you. Just wasn't interested in making that sacrifice.
> 
> This is the 'lying straight to your face' model. She knew exactly what your issue was. But pretended not to.
> 
> Because the alternative was to say: I just love all this attention so much, that I can't let go of it. I'm sorry that's a deal breaker for you, because I DO want to be married, just not enough to give up my adult toys.


Mem this is exactly right, they say it with every expectation that you will accept it and not call them on it. They are so compartmentalized that their belief in the "rightness" of their statement is like a hypnotic spell.

But they are lying right to your face.

Jdawg, stay the course, she is following a standard script here.


----------



## jdawg2015

Decorum said:


> Sympathy/empathy is the lifeblood of love.
> 
> It why you ACT to meet the other persons needs.
> Its one of the first things to go as resentment grows.
> They are in direct opposition to entitlement (which is a form of spiritual blindness).
> When these are absent it is a sign that the relationship is OVER!
> Btw women understand this and will blame you for not recognizing that it was over, they just did not have the courage to tell you before they moved on (i.e. cheated).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mem this is exactly right, they say it with every expectation that you will accept it and not call them on it. They are so compartmentalized that their belief in the "rightness" of their statement is like a hypnotic spell.
> 
> But they are lying right to your face.
> 
> Jdawg, stay the course, she is following a standard script here.


Staying course but emotionally shattered right now. She clearly wanted to keep things going but for me it's too broken. I definitely need lot of time to process as still love her and had thought that we would be married in October. 

Head and heart still not fully aligned that's for sure. 

Had long chat with one of her gfs last night (fiance asked me to talk to her) and 2.5 hours later felt better but core issue was still there. 
Her friend has some good points but once your partner pushes you to feeling a certain way and only changes course after you put down a consequence, I can't get my head past it. She had many times to work on this but only now saying or doing certain things. Part of this is the way my fiance communicates (not one to say "you're right" but she will instead say "you win" and so you don't feel good about it). Even her gf and I laughed as that's exactly how she is....


----------



## manfromlamancha

leetjay said:


> Jdawg where are you from? We have a hotdog place close to us called Jdawgs LOL
> 
> Dude where do I begin? You and your lady sound exactly like me and my wife. When I got married my idea of loyalty is that the two partners put each other first and don't let the opposite sex get close. Of course we all have to have friends but when it comes down to it you don't let another woman or man into your life enough to get too close to them. Her idea is very different. She thinks it's okay to have close guys friends because she grew up in an all boy family and she is more comfortable around guys etc etc blah blah blah bull****!
> 
> We have been married for 23 years Jdawg. I have put my trust in her many many times. I figure I need to trust my wife to the point that she gives me a reason not to trust her. Well it started very early on. She admitted she was still in love with another guy just months after we got married. Then a couple of years into our marriage I found out that she would secretly go to lunch with another guy without telling me, no, actually lying and telling me that she never would only to find out later she had. They got too close she held his hand a few times they cuddled etc. No sex or anything but still. years went by then in 2010 she met a guy on FB and the four of us became friends (me, my wife, him, his wife). Turns out she was secretly texting him for a long time talking about a future life together and she admitted to falling in love with him. Since 2010 she has had probably 5 other emotional affairs and she keeps pushing it farther each time. This year alone she met several guys playing Words With Friends in their local area and she secretly met up with two of them. The one guy she fell for she met up with him over 10 times!!! They talked a lot, hugged, cuddled, told each other they loved each other. Make my blood boil just telling you about this! Many times she has said she is done with having guy friends and she is okay with that so that we can work on our marriage. Then after a time she goes back to wanting guy friends and finds herself back on social media chatting it up and wanting to see guys for some sick reason. I honestly don't get it cuz we really are good friends and have fun together. She has a problem obviously.
> 
> My point is, people like her will never want to let go of needing other guys in their life. It's not like you are jealous or not trusting. IN the case of my wife, she always just thinks they will be "just friends" but it indefinitely always escalates into something more serious and threatens our marriage.
> 
> One day you might look back, like me, and regret ever knowing her. There are women out there who won't do that to you and who will have the same ideas in a relationship as you do. My advice is go find those same people who have the same values as you.
> 
> T



There is a huge difference between JDawg and Leetjay: JDawg did something about it - he dumped hir before marrying her while Leetjay knows about it but continues to stay married while his wife faces no real consequences and her behaviour gets worse each time!


----------



## morituri

Your ex-fiancée may be better suited for polyamorous relationships than "plain vanilla" monogamous relationships. But then again, even in polyamory, a partner who uses deception and dishonesty is not one who is tolerated for too long either.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

jdawg2015 said:


> *She's 44.* I'm same age we are six months apart in age. Not saying it's direct correlation, just giving the history of my choice in women. I clearly need look at myself and counselor brought this out to look for patterns.
> 
> She is a mess emotionally and drank entire bottle of wine last night (she not a big person) and passed out. So dealing with lot of emotions right now and pretty fragile.
> 
> No way can I accept her as a life partner. Trust is GONE.


This is what is truly sad about the situation. Back in March, I made one post in this thread - short one at that. Basically, it's why do people accept it when people play games. Alex pointed out that not all people play games intentionally to be true. Fair enough. But at the end of the day, does it matter whether the game player is oblivious to what he/she is doing or if it's intentional? My point from the get go is that you have a small window to get it right before your objectivity gets completely clouded by attachment. It's human nature. That's why IMHO that you need to be VERY alert early on and make your concerns about serious issues known once - maybe twice - and if the SO cannot comply then you dump and move on. 

If your SO was in her 20s, you maybe have a serious shot at working with her on boundaries and helping her to build healthy ones. I personally wouldn't do it because I wasn't into 'projects' when I was in the dating scene. But I can see if someone would be willing to do that if the person is still young and not set in his/her ways yet. Your ex fiance, OTOH is in her mid 40s. This has been going on for a long time, and you're not going to change her. Not at her age. On top of that, how much longer will she be able to get those ego boosts from these fawning male friends? Eventually, they'll melt away and she'll be alone - the "best of the rest" will at least. Then all she'll have are the true losers. 

While I feel bad for your situation, recognize also that you did the right thing and you are free from that cancer. Too soon? Absolutely not. Call it what it was. You'll move on a lot quicker.


----------



## Marduk

She wants you to talk to her friend as a set up, man. 

You will likely find history being rewritten soon as you being insecure, jealous, and controlling and this is part of this game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,

There are some strongly gendered behavioral templates that come into play in these situations. 

The first and most compelling goes like this. A guy is blatantly flirting with a married woman while her husband is in the room. 

Later the H and W argue about it. The wife keeps making a statement which is technically true and substantively false. She repeats: I was not flirting with HIM

But the truth is, she was doing nothing to discourage him from flirting with her. And that lack of discouragement in these type situations is its own form of encouragement. 

There are situations in which it truly isn't possible to be neutral. In those situations, the absence of a response implies tacit support of the behavior being directed at you. 

These weren't just OSF's. These were OSF's who clearly wanted a sexual relationship with Jdawgs fiancé. 

They were in hunting mode, and she was insistent about spending 1-1 time with them. That's totally different. 

There ARE couples who have a model where OSF's are tolerated provided the OS friend doesn't cross a boundary by flirting with or making an overt pass at the married person. If they do - the OSF is cut out. It's treated as a breach of trust and boundary. 





Bugged said:


> I used to work for an english multinational company with offices throughout the world..I wouldn't know what the marital norm is in Taiwan or Australia..on the other hand I have lived my entire life in western Europe, spent extended periods of time (as in years) in Berlin,Paris, Milan, Barcellona, Madrid, Amsterdam, Munich, London, Bremen...and small cities you won't know.
> 
> I'm not sayint it's the norm..I'm saying it happens quite a lot...
> We're not talking about going out together, get drunk and party all night long..we're talking about a lunch break or an early dinner...usually with people *you've known or worked with for years*..not random guys that pop up out of nowhere all the time...
> 
> 
> 
> i wouldn't judge the french or anyone from their politicians...I'm not French, my father is half french though>
> 
> Look if you still love her and it's so hard to let her go why insted of calling off the wedding and break up, just stay in a relationship with her and tell people the wedding has been postponed _sine die_...
> I think it's normal for couples to stay together for many years before marrying...(but again my father is half _francais _so..>>)


----------



## MEM2020

Jdawg,

You ought stop talking to her friends. They are attempting to exploit the fact that you still love her - to patch things up. 

Nothing said going forward will mean anything in a year because she will claim that you bullied her while she was in a financially vulnerable position that she WAS IN BECAUSE SHE TRUSTED YOU.

It will be a 100% blame shift and return to what a controlling jerk you are. 

She needs to find a guy just like you, who's cool with some discreet extra marital entanglements on both sides. And each person stays in a don't ask, don't tell mode. 

They would be compatible. You aren't.





jdawg2015 said:


> Staying course but emotionally shattered right now. She clearly wanted to keep things going but for me it's too broken. I definitely need lot of time to process as still love her and had thought that we would be married in October.
> 
> Head and heart still not fully aligned that's for sure.
> 
> Had long chat with one of her gfs last night (fiance asked me to talk to her) and 2.5 hours later felt better but core issue was still there.
> Her friend has some good points but once your partner pushes you to feeling a certain way and only changes course after you put down a consequence, I can't get my head past it. She had many times to work on this but only now saying or doing certain things. Part of this is the way my fiance communicates (not one to say "you're right" but she will instead say "you win" and so you don't feel good about it). Even her gf and I laughed as that's exactly how she is....


----------



## NextTimeAround

marduk said:


> She wants you to talk to her friend as a set up, man.
> 
> You will likely find history being rewritten soon as you being insecure, jealous, and controlling and this is part of this game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't deal with any of her friends. Any time around them will suddenly make them an expert on you.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Bugged,
> 
> There are some strongly gendered behavioral templates that come into play in these situations.
> 
> The first and most compelling goes like this. A guy is blatantly flirting with a married woman while her husband is in the room.
> 
> Later the H and W argue about it. The wife keeps making a statement which is technically true and substantively false. She repeats: I was not flirting with HIM
> 
> But the truth is, she was doing nothing to discourage him from flirting with her. And that lack of discouragement in these type situations is its own form of encouragement.
> 
> There are situations in which it truly isn't possible to be neutral. In those situations, the absence of a response implies tacit support of the behavior being directed at you.
> 
> These weren't just OSF's. These were OSF's who clearly wanted a sexual relationship with Jdawgs fiancé.
> 
> They were in hunting mode, and she was insistent about spending 1-1 time with them. That's totally different.
> 
> There ARE couples who have a model where OSF's are tolerated provided the OS friend doesn't cross a boundary by flirting with or making an overt pass at the married person. If they do - the OSF is cut out. It's treated as a breach of trust and boundary.


Best explanation on TAM about how this works I've seen.

And exactly how she puts it. "I was not doing anything" I actually told her that's actually the problem. She also didn't do anything to make it stop.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> I might not be able to spot flirty behaviour ...my partner does not mind if he finds me talking with some guy when we go out...on the other hand he's very attractive so women are always kind of flirty...*I don't even think they do it on purpose*..they get all talkative/giggly and look nervous...I don't bother...I know he's fiercely loyal as a friend and a partner...what am i supposed to do..forbid him to talk to women or argue all the time?
> My sister's partner is the opposite...I remember that once he almost verbally assaulted a guy that checked my sister out..I never felt so embarassed in my entire life...he was very rude... I couldn't be with someone like that..honestly.:surprise:
> OP 's fiancè is very attractive so men are probably always in hunting mode with her.Does that mean she can't have any close male friend unless they're gay?
> Even the obese guy was a no-no...that was a bit much IMO


You keep bringing up the fat guy. Fat guy has huge crush on her. But I guess I should tell her not problem babe, go have dinner with guy who fawns for you. She's more then welcome too, but then I won't be with her as a partner. Her choice.

Most women if they have a man ready to marry her would see it for what it is and rather than string fat boy along, just cut him loose.

Edit: "Close" male friends? Sure she can, all she wants. Just not with me as a partner. If she has need to be close to multiple men, not my game. Count me out.

My advice to you is having close male friends when married is playing with fire.


----------



## morituri

jdawg2015 said:


> You keep bringing up the fat guy. Fat guy has huge crush on her. But I guess I should tell her not problem babe, go have dinner with guy who fawns for you. She's more then welcome too, but then I won't be with her as a partner. Her choice.
> 
> Most women if they have a man ready to marry her would see it for what it is and rather than string fat boy along, just cut him loose.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> 
> "Close" male friends? Sure she can, all she wants. Just not with me as a partner. If she has need to be close to multiple men, not my game. Count me out.
> 
> My advice to you is having close male friends when married is playing with fire.
Click to expand...

Yes indeed. Care to give us an update?


----------



## bandit.45

Jdawg let her go man. Just let her go. 


No woman....no woman...on this planet is worth this sh!t you are putting yourself through. Your ex is not marriage material. She just is not, and probably never will be. For you to feel safe with her as partner she would literally have to go back in time to childhood, be raised by different parents, grow up in a different religion, etc....


----------



## NextTimeAround

bandit.45 said:


> Jdawg let her go man. Just let her go.
> 
> 
> No woman....no woman...on this planet is worth this sh!t you are putting yourself through. Your ex is not marriage material. She just is not, and probably never will be. *For you to feel safe with her as partner she would literally have to go back in time to childhood, be raised by different parents, grow up in a different religion, etc....*


or be on the wrong side of these types of relationships so that she's burned a few times.

Let her find her match.


----------



## Holland

jdawg2015 said:


> One thing that repeats in my head is her lack of empathy about how I feel and why I feel the way I do. Not even a simple, "I can understand why you would feel the way you do, etc etc".
> 
> I go out of my way to avoid situations like she created because I know how it would feel. She never uses any words that would put me at ease. I'm always the controlling prick, etc.


Sounds like you have had a lucky save really, sorry that you have been hurt though 

The behaviour is not at all acceptable but her complete lack of empathy speaks volumes. She does not care about you, she is very self centered and your life with her would have been hell.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> I'm just trying to understand...( apart from your fiancè who apparently is too flirty) you think a woman cannot keep her close male friends once she 's married? I'm talking about people she's know for years?
> *Or she can be friends with them but cannot go for lunchs or early dinners without you?*
> :surprise::surprise:
> 
> Have you ever been to a Milonga? I wonder what you think about the typical inviting and accepting ritual...


For me it would depend on what kind of vibe I got from that person. IF she and I can do things together without my husband AND this is not a usual occurrence AND I don't get any weird vibes, the maybe.


----------



## farsidejunky

Bugged said:


> I'm just trying to understand...( apart from your fiancè who apparently is too flirty) you think a woman cannot keep her close male friends once she 's married? I'm talking about people she's know for years?
> Or she can be friends with them but cannot go for lunchs or early dinners without you?
> :surprise::surprise:
> 
> Have you ever been to a Milonga? I wonder what you think about the typical inviting and accepting ritual...


The point is that he has a boundary. He won't remain married to someone who does not remove the OSF orbiters from her life. I see it the same way, and have broken up, as well as been dumped (after being cheated on by her) by similar women. It is a behavior pattern I would not accept in a mate either.

It is clear you see things differently. Bugged, help me understand why you keep at Jdawg for him to be ok with it.


----------



## farsidejunky

I think if it were me I would be okay with the ones you have known for 20 years. 

Do you see a contrast between what you are describing and the OP's fiance?


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> I'm just trying to understand...( apart from your fiancè who apparently is too flirty) you think a woman cannot keep her close male friends once she 's married? I'm talking about people she's know for years?
> Or she can be friends with them but cannot go for lunchs or early dinners without you?
> :surprise::surprise:
> 
> Have you ever been to a Milonga? I wonder what you think about the typical inviting and accepting ritual...


You are projecting.

NONE of these guys are long time friends. Most few years at best.

Bottomline: I don't believe married people should be going 1:1 with other people. Dinner with another guy to me, is a date. Going to lunch off-site with another guy out of the office, sorry not my style. 

Some of these guys she shares EVERYTHING. How much I make, when we are traveling, inside of our apartment, our relationship, you name it. VERY off-putting. 

The fat guy stopped texting her after the second time her and I had dinner with him. Gee, what do you think that is?? But then my fiance sent him a text asking why he doesnt' come around anymore. She arranged another get together with the three of us. Guess what? He bailed the day before. I told fiance that it's because he knew he has crush and I would be there, EVERY time. So how harmless is fat guy?

Milonga reference is a classic strawman argument. Pointless to discussion so I'll pass.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> I only have 3 really close friends..one is a woman, the other 2 are men...I've know these people for over 20 years..no way I would cut ties or avoid them for something as harmless as a meal together at lunch-break..


You can bet those two men are attracted to you in some way. You will swear otherwise but it's a fact.

Plenty of stories (even here on TAM) where the woman finds out 20+ years later that the guy actually has feelings for you.

If you place your friends before your partner (your words, not mine) I see red flag. You are attached emotionally way more than you think.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> or be on the wrong side of these types of relationships so that she's burned a few times.
> 
> Let her find her match.


My ex wife who very rarely sends me any communication sent a text one day about our daughter as school. Fiance asked me, "why do you guys need to text why doesn't your daughter text you directly"

So yeah, if I **** tested her and went out with other women you can bet she would flip out.


----------



## farsidejunky

jdawg2015 said:


> My ex wife who very rarely sends me any communication sent a text one day about our daughter as school. Fiance asked me, "why do you guys need to text why doesn't your daughter text you directly"
> 
> So yeah, if I **** tested her and went out with other women you can bet she would flip out.


This tells you all you need to know.

You dodged a bullet, brother, even if it still grazed you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> Maybe fat boy doesn't like YOU and you spoilt the fun of having lunch with her...online you come across as quite aggressive..maybe he freaked out..I'm not saying he hasn't go t a crush on your fiancè though..what i'm saying is that people might enjoy each other's company even if they're not engaging into anything sexual...


Not everybody is going to like us. so what do you suggest that we do? Kiss their a$$? 

When I am in a relationship where I am giving up my right to date other men; expected to constantly negotiate the use of my free time (ie I would rather spend my Christmas holidays skiing than entertaining some passive aggressive in law of my husband or boy friend).... well then I'm just not going to feel bad when a female friend who just simply buzzes into my partner's life whenever she can fit him into her schedule decides that she doesn't like me. 

If that woman's friendship is so key to my partner's well-being, then he needs to have that friend around sooner rather than later so she can make a decision for him (and me) and then we can all waste LESS time getting to know one another.

Since the OP is man, then just reverse the sexes / genders here.


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,
Have either of your long term male friends tried to sleep with you?
Or have they always been platonic friends? 

How would you feel about a scenario where your BF routinely accepted date (lunch/dinner) invitations from those giggly nervous girls? So it's obvious she likes HIM, and he not only says yes, but starts saying yes routinely.





Bugged said:


> I might not be able to spot flirty behaviour ...my partner does not mind if he finds me talking with some guy when we go out...on the other hand he's very attractive so women are always kind of flirty...*I don't even think they do it on purpose*..they get all talkative/giggly and look nervous...I don't bother...I know he's fiercely loyal as a friend and a partner...what am i supposed to do..forbid him to talk to women or argue all the time?
> My sister's partner is the opposite...I remember that once he almost verbally assaulted a guy that checked my sister out..I never felt so embarassed in my entire life...he was very rude... I couldn't be with someone like that..honestly.:surprise:
> OP 's fiancè is very attractive so men are probably always in hunting mode with her.Does that mean she can't have any close male friend unless they're gay?
> Even the obese guy was a no-no...that was a bit much IMO


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> i'm not saying you should feel bad..I was just giving a plausible explanation for why fat boy disappeared...
> 
> *Also, with this mindset, if you break up divorce you're left with nothing..*unless you only have female friends...I don't make gender an issue when it comes to friendship...I find it very hard to find people that i truly like, and like spending time with ...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry...i'm not sure I understand your point here...:surprise:


Why do you say that? If you look to your friends for every decision in your life, that's a dangerous game. Some people get off on telling others how to live their life....... even though they don't care one way or the other what you do. 

You could left with nothing trying to please your friends. 

I wouldn't let a so called friend tell me whom to date and marry.


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,

A couple points worth noting:

You aren't attracted to hardly anyone. In truth, despite loving quality time with your BF and finding him quite handsome, you can barely tolerate sex with him every 10 days. 

This is why for example, you keep making these borderline snarky comments implying how silly it is to feel threatened by a 'fat' competitor. The idea of you having sex with a fat person is patently out of the question, and therefore you assume this is true for others. 

The reason I'm surprised by this is that in the general scheme of things, you are keenly aware that your umm wiring is non standard. 

Every day, in numerous hotel rooms around the world, the following sequence of events plays out. 

Big man, takes JD's fiancée (J2)out to dinner and gets her drinking. He has found the ***** in their relationship and is now about to make a blatant play to leverage that into getting laid.

Big: Is it tiresome to have to explain your every move to Mr. Perfect? 
J2: I hate how he tries to control me.
Big: If we were together, I'd NEVER try to control you. You're a free spirit - no one should suck the life out of you by trying to say what you can and can't do.

Some of these end up in bed. Some don't. Might depend on how recent and unpleasant her last fight with JD was. 






Bugged said:


> Nope..they've always been platonic..one is an electronical engineer..the other one is a painter that lives in his world..
> 
> The sister or my partner's younger brother's gf has a huge crush on him (on my SO I mean)..she's 23, blonde, very pretty, curvy, beautiful face...a bit short but she compensate with heels > When we go out with his younger brother's friends she always ends up being around him and engaging in endless converstations...he says she's boring though..she's very girly...I'm quite the opposite..so I can't really compete can I? I mean, my SO knows that if he cheats on me it's the end of both our relationship and our frienship..it's up to him..I trust him so I don't mind..of course if they suddenly started to go out regularly just the two of them I might get a bit nervous but again...if she was 200lbs..I couldn't care less honestly...>


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Bugged,
> 
> A couple points worth noting:
> 
> You aren't attracted to hardly anyone. In truth, despite loving quality time with your BF and finding him quite handsome, you can barely tolerate sex with him every 10 days.
> 
> This is why for example, you keep making these borderline snarky comments implying how silly it is to feel threatened by a 'fat' competitor. The idea of you having sex with a fat person is patently out of the question, and therefore you assume this is true for others.
> 
> The reason I'm surprised by this is that in the general scheme of things, you are keenly aware that your umm wiring is non standard.
> 
> Every day, in numerous hotel rooms around the world, the following sequence of events plays out.
> 
> Big man, takes JD's fiancée (J2)out to dinner and gets her drinking. He has found the ***** in their relationship and is now about to make a blatant play to leverage that into getting laid.
> 
> Big: Is it tiresome to have to explain your every move to Mr. Perfect?
> J2: I hate how he tries to control me.
> Big: If we were together, I'd NEVER try to control you. You're a free spirit - no one should suck the life out of you by trying to say what you can and can't do.
> 
> Some of these end up in bed. Some don't. Might depend on how recent and unpleasant her last fight with JD was.


OMG flashback.

A girl I wanted broke up with her BF. He was trying to get her back, she was considering it, I wanted her.

I used those very words. She was in my bed that night.

This works.


----------



## Marduk

Bugged said:


> apart from the fact that I'm pretty sure you weren't technically obese...noone wants to feel controlled..so the more you do, the more you push people away...IMHO.


No, no, I meant the bit about the other guy being controlling and I just want her to be free to enjoy life.

Specifically, life naked on top of me.


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,

You are oddly fixated on the topic of BMI. Very aspie of you. 

I'm here to tell you that many women will overlook a man's excess diameter if he is charismatic and confident and successful. 

And many ethically impaired people will drink in order to have a partial excuse for their bad behavior. 

By the way, you'd make a fine lawyer. 

When M2 gets to this level of tenacity with me, I take it physical. Which means we wrestle: if I 'lose' I get a bit banged up by way of her fists, elbows and knees. 

If she loses she gets a spanking for engaging in 'willful incomprehension'. There is typically some concise banter while we wrestle as a full body laugh impairs your coordination for a few seconds. 

I guess that's a way of saying the funnier person has an edge. Busted attempts at humor are expensive though, as you have to consume a precious commodity (oxygen), to engage in banter.

And in a childish attempt to get the last word in: Big Man, aka: Large circumference man, was only one of a solar system worth of males vying for her ummm - panties. Perhaps in the spirit of mapping suitors to planets via BMI, we could call him Jupiter. 

But the French fellow (FF) showed up with an expensive handbag that she asked him to 'buy for her' implication being he'd be reimbursed. 

And statistically my experience with French folks, is they tend to be very fit. So the handbag script works like this. 

So FF plans to show up with the handbag - and deliver it in a 1-1 situation. And then the script works like this: 

J2: how much do I owe you
FF: you owe me dinner and drinks - the restaurant at my hotel is actually quite good






Bugged said:


> apart from the fact that I'm pretty sure you weren't technically obese...noone wants to feel controlled..so the more you do, the more you push people away...IMHO.


----------



## MEM2020

100% agree with this

This next bit - is likely the most useful circuitry I have.

I can tell over a fairly short timeframe how much of a 'conscience' folks have. I quickly recognized that M2 has a strong conscience. 

Therefore - when she was sorely tempted by a huge crush on a guy who worked for her - I ignored the whole situation. 

My view was simplistic: If she cheats, that's about her, not about me. As a consequence, she will feel MUCH worse about it than I do. 

Afterwards she told me that a big factor in her not 'straying' was my total lack of concern about the other guy. Her exact phrase was: 'you knew you would win, and that was incredibly appealing'

The truth was a bit more complicated. While I did know I'd win, I also didn't realize how close she was to cracking under the daily temptation. 






Bugged said:


> apart from the fact that I'm pretty sure you weren't technically obese...noone wants to feel controlled..so the more you do, the more you push people away...IMHO.


----------



## MEM2020

Bugged,

I would have ditched J2 solely due to not generally trusting her. 

Was your BF ever jealous or controlling? 





Bugged said:


> Oh I don't know..not many obese people round here so..I might not have the experience with that..usually obese people are pretty neglected...I feel for them...I really do...:crying:
> 
> 
> yes, but if they're ethically impaired..why are you going out with them or proposing to them..I mean..to me drinking is an aggravating factor...
> 'Not only you did X..but *you were also drunk!*!!!'...>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but my point is that we're talking about a trustworthy person (not OP's fiancè apparently)...
> 
> But I get i'm getting on your nerves..(and OP's too), so I'll pretend to agree with you (while thanking God I do not have a husband..)>:laugh::laugh:


----------



## convert

jdawg2015 said:


> My ex wife who very rarely sends me any communication sent a text one day about our daughter as school. Fiance asked me, "why do you guys need to text why doesn't your daughter text you directly"
> 
> *So yeah, if I **** tested her and went out with other women you can bet she would flip out.*


This is key. It really sounds like she is the controlling one.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> Nope..despite the fact he's absolutely sure the electronical engineer is in love with me (I honestly think he's gay), he never asked me to stop going out with him 1:1...
> :nerd:


I'm curious about this. I don't know where the study is but did you know that your romantic partner will pick up on someone's attraction to you before you will?

So let's assume for a second that even you know that the guy is interested in. (Even the 20+ year friend who finally comes clean).

Would you end the relationship with that person or continue knowing they are interested more than friends?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

FFS is this bugged's platform to justify her serial emotional affairs? Or Jdawg's thread to work through his relationship breakdown?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> I would never ever cut ties with someone because of that. Ever.
> Let me share this with you.
> I have a friend, she's Dutch. We met in Berlin in our 20s...we lived together in Germany for some time, we even shared the same bed in Munich for some months while were there...I really liked her, she's the sweetest girl..we had a great time together..we then got back to our countries..after a year or so she writes me a letter saying she thinks she's in love with me (she never told me she was a lesbian...)..I told her I was flattered but not being a lesbian I thought we should remain friends..and *we did*...she went to India with another girl for a year or so (I don't think she was her gf but not sure)..we used to chat via icq while she was in Varanasi..forward a couple of year she meets this man...they get together...years later they marry and he had to visit a fair in Milan where I was living at that time..I invited them both over to my place...he was very manly so I was surprised :grin2:..they stayed a couple of days, we had a great time reminiscing our crazy days in Berlin, just like friends would...
> I don't see her much now...we're friends on FB..last year she had a beautiful baby boy...I was very happy for her.
> *I miss her*.
> If I ever end up in Holland again.*.guess who's the first person I'm gonna call??*>>


We don't care.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> pluralis maiestatis?>>
> he asked, i made an example.
> I think you don't even know what *it means*, to have a real friend.
> I feel for you guys. I really do.:|



Projecting ..... much.......


----------



## NextTimeAround

Bugged said:


> Just because you're insecure and don't trust yourself or your SO to NOT become romantically involved with OSFs..it does not mean others are like you.
> Talking about projection...:wink2:


I'm not insecure. but I know that to call someone insecure is the default insult to make when you have nothing else to criticise.

Listen, Bugged, I'll do you a favour. I'll let YOU have on this occasion, the last word.


----------



## jdawg2015

Bugged said:


> Just because you're insecure and don't trust yourself or your SO to NOT become romantically involved with OSFs..it does not mean others are like you.
> Talking about projection...


Bugged, taking the time and effort to type "Marriage is Evil" speaks volumes. I have several good friends but they would never have supplanted my marriage. 

I don't "need" a woman, but it's sure nice to have partner who shares interest and complements my style. I have plenty of "dude" friends to do guy things with. 

My marriage was 20+ years and my exW was my best friend (which is how marriage works). Things fell apart for a host of reasons but definitely not because of straying.

If you place those friends before a relationship you're setting yourself up for failure.


----------



## MEM2020

Is J2 still trying to get you to reconcile? 





jdawg2015 said:


> Bugged, taking the time and effort to type "Marriage is Evil" speaks volumes. I have several good friends but they would never have supplanted my marriage.
> 
> I don't "need" a woman, but it's sure nice to have partner who shares interest and complements my style. I have plenty of "dude" friends to do guy things with.
> 
> My marriage was 20+ years and my exW was my best friend (which is how marriage works). Things fell apart for a host of reasons but definitely not because of straying.
> 
> If you place those friends before a relationship you're setting yourself up for failure.


----------



## beverly2015

Be so very careful. I believe a man and a woman can't be just friends eventually one or both will want more. 

It's hard to get into a marriage with all these questions already. You need to decide if you can trust her or not Before you walk down the isle. 

She sounds a lot like I use to be and I'll tell you it rarely ended well. She needs to set her form boundaries now and not give exceptions.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> Is J2 still trying to get you to reconcile?


YUP.

I'm the best guy EVER now....


----------



## MEM2020

JD,

Is she aggressively looking for a job? 
Is she accepting your decision to stop sleeping together?
Is she refraining from laying a guilt trip on you? 

How comfortable do you feel that you made the right 'long term' decision? 





jdawg2015 said:


> YUP.
> 
> I'm the best guy EVER now....


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> JD,
> 
> Is she aggressively looking for a job?
> Is she accepting your decision to stop sleeping together?
> Is she refraining from laying a guilt trip on you?
> 
> How comfortable do you feel that you made the right 'long term' decision?


No
Yes
No

Definitely right long term move. I feel guilty about her situation.


----------



## MEM2020

JD,

What will you do if she claims that she hasn't found another job by the time you leave? 

Because her current strategy is the ideal setup for either:
- guilt based reconciliation 
Or
- a guilt induced financial payment 

And I promise not to be judgmental about it. How loud is the voice in your head getting? The one telling you to recon with her?





jdawg2015 said:


> No
> Yes
> No
> 
> Definitely right long term move. I feel guilty about her situation.


----------



## Decorum

Wow back on track now wonderful. I was getting tired of seeing this at the top of my subscription list only to find out it was just a tj.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> JD,
> 
> What will you do if she claims that she hasn't found another job by the time you leave?
> 
> Because her current strategy is the ideal setup for either:
> - guilt based reconciliation
> Or
> - a guilt induced financial payment
> 
> And I promise not to be judgmental about it. How loud is the voice in your head getting? The one telling you to recon with her?


I've considered reconciling but I know deep down her pattern will repeat in the future and I'll kick myself.

My plan is just let her have the ring. She can take to jeweler and use that to get her self set-up. Beyond that she's on her own.

I've waited for Friday night so I can be at house and not worried about her destroying anything. After the first "we're done" she decided to take scissors to a bunch of my clothes and smashed an expensive bicycle helmet.


----------



## MEM2020

So instead of accepting that she'd violated a boundary one too many times - she started destroying your stuff. 

The difference between now and having this happen in 10 years is the difference between a 5 figure write off (mainly the ring) and a 7 figure write off. 






jdawg2015 said:


> I've considered reconciling but I know deep down her pattern will repeat in the future and I'll kick myself.
> 
> My plan is just let her have the ring. She can take to jeweler and use that to get her self set-up. Beyond that she's on her own.
> 
> I've waited for Friday night so I can be at house and not worried about her destroying anything. After the first "we're done" she decided to take scissors to a bunch of my clothes and smashed an expensive bicycle helmet.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> So instead of accepting that she'd violated a boundary one too many times - she started destroying your stuff.
> 
> The difference between now and having this happen in 10 years is the difference between a 5 figure write off (mainly the ring) and a 7 figure write off.


Actually when she went on the rampage, it started making it easier to detach emotionally. I could not imagine doing that do her. 

She started saying, "if you want to destroy me then I'll destroy you". Really f-ed up situation.

I have a couple bicycles in the condo and I'm worried she'll damage/destroy them.

Seriously, I am afraid of what she is capable of doing at this point.

EDIT: Even my friends can't believe predicament I'm in. Such a mess.


----------



## MEM2020

JD,

When is your move out date? 





jdawg2015 said:


> Actually when she went on the rampage, it started making it easier to detach emotionally. I could not imagine doing that do her.
> 
> She started saying, "if you want to destroy me then I'll destroy you". Really f-ed up situation.
> 
> I have a couple bicycles in the condo and I'm worried she'll damage/destroy them.
> 
> Seriously, I am afraid of what she is capable of doing at this point.
> 
> EDIT: Even my friends can't believe predicament I'm in. Such a mess.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> JD,
> 
> When is your move out date?


Mid August. But I will be away for 10 days in which she can do who knows what.

Can't even begin to tell you how much of a stress case I am right now.

And this is from I woman who I adored and did everything for too. I'm such a dumbass.


----------



## farsidejunky

jdawg2015 said:


> Mid August. But I will be away for 10 days in which she can do who knows what.
> 
> Can't even begin to tell you how much of a stress case I am right now.
> 
> And this is from I woman who I adored and did everything for too. I'm such a dumbass.


Women make us do funny things, brother. She is now demonstrating her true colors. One of the first sayings I picked up from TAM: 

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them."

Her level of entitlement is absolutely astounding. 

Are you planning any steps to prevent further damage? Police involvement?


----------



## MEM2020

I would pay her to move out early. 

I know that sounds weak, but I would. 

Or alternatively I'd pay extra to expedite having all my stuff but the bed and a very small set of clothing shipped out ahead of time.

And frankly, I might even keep the clothing in a single suitcase at the office. 

Because when it becomes certain that it's over, it's more likely than not, that she will go totally scorched earth on all your stuff. 

I would do one other thing. The day before I left I would do a walk through video of the entire apartment keeping that day's edition of the newspaper in the frame at all times. It's an incontrovertible time stamp showing that the apartment had no holes in the walls, gouges in the floors, etc. on that date. 

This isn't over yet. 



jdawg2015 said:


> Mid August. But I will be away for 10 days in which she can do who knows what.
> 
> Can't even begin to tell you how much of a stress case I am right now.
> 
> And this is from I woman who I adored and did everything for too. I'm such a dumbass.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> I would pay her to move out early.
> 
> I know that sounds weak, but I would.
> 
> Or alternatively I'd pay extra to expedite having all my stuff but the bed and a very small set of clothing shipped out ahead of time.
> 
> And frankly, I might even keep the clothing in a single suitcase at the office.
> 
> Because when it becomes certain that it's over, it's more likely than not, that she will go totally scorched earth on all your stuff.
> 
> I would do one other thing. The day before I left I would do a walk through video of the entire apartment keeping that day's edition of the newspaper in the frame at all times. It's an incontrovertible time stamp showing that the apartment had no holes in the walls, gouges in the floors, etc. on that date.
> 
> This isn't over yet.


I'm actually scared to death of her at this point. I'm not joking.


----------



## Decorum

jdawg2015 said:


> After the first "we're done" she decided to take scissors to a bunch of my clothes and smashed an expensive bicycle helmet.


Just her way of saying "Thank you for all you have done for me".

I guess it would be stating the obvious if I said that it shows a huge lack of respect and a huge sense of ownership of you (entitlement).

Obviously peoples actions mirror their inner condition. Fear, Loss of control, the pain of rejection, unwillingness to accept another's free will, anger, vengeance. It sounds like she has never really taken stock of herself as a person and lacks some moral boundaries. It is funny how easy it would be to excuse or "understand" this behavior, but I think it's quite shocking.


Oh! I like you! You shall die a quick relatively painless death.


----------



## jdawg2015

farsidejunky said:


> Are you planning any steps to prevent further damage? Police involvement?


Here's the issue. I am on an employment pass to live here. If I did that and she falsely accuse me of anything it could create an issue with my work permit.

I have to tread lightly as have discussed this with many friends.

I'm stressed out right now because of it.


----------



## Decorum

jdawg2015 said:


> Here's the issue. I am on an employment pass to live here. If I did that and she falsely accuse me of anything it could create an issue with my work permit.
> 
> I have to tread lightly as have discussed this with many friends.
> 
> I'm stressed out right now because of it.


Ugg! That is a serious concern. Can you do anything with a VAR or nanny cam?


----------



## farsidejunky

jdawg2015 said:


> Here's the issue. I am on an employment pass to live here. If I did that and she falsely accuse me of anything it could create an issue with my work permit.
> 
> I have to tread lightly as have discussed this with many friends.
> 
> I'm stressed out right now because of it.


Take a friend with you back to the house when you return. Retrieve all important stuff and put in storage. Video tape the apartment. Hell, have him video tape the entire encounter.

Get what matters (bikes, etc.) out. The rest is expendable.


----------



## MEM2020

Far is right. 

And then get in touch with the folks you leased the apartment for letting them know you are moving out NOW - but will pay them for the balance of the term of the lease (perhaps you already have). 

And then move into a hotel. Do the math. There are 23 days between now and 8/15. You'll be away for 10. That means paying for 13 nights in a hotel. 

Basically - move out tomorrow. Even if you need to pay for temporary storage it won't be much. The key thing is to get your stuff out, and make a video of the apartment in fine shape WITH a witness or two present. And then turn your key in and let her know you are turning it in to the landlord. 

They will likely ask her to leave - but the main benefit to this approach is that it makes it much harder for her to make a false claim that you've assaulted her. 

Please tell me that you've conveyed at least some of your recent issues with her via text or email. 

Because folks will believe you if her story sounds whack and there is definitive proof you were ending things. 

If I'd realized she already destroyed some stuff I would have pushed you hard to write her a short email saying you understand that she's hurt that you are ending the engagement but that it's not ok for her to destroy ....list of stuff.... with estimated value. 

The goal is to establish a narrative that works defensively for you in the event she goes into a truly destructive rage. 





farsidejunky said:


> Take a friend with you back to the house when you return. Retrieve all important stuff and put in storage. Video tape the apartment. Hell, have him video tape the entire encounter.
> 
> Get what matters (bikes, etc.) out. The rest is expendable.


----------



## MEM2020

In addition to moving out, I'd let the landlord know that she has already destroyed some of your stuff. 

They will likely ask her to leave/change the locks if she's not on the lease. 

Does she have big stuff - furniture - at the apartment? Or just clothes? Does she have friends she can stay with on short notice? 

If not, you have one other option. Tell her you are moving out, and she can stay until the 15th. And if the apartment is turned over in the same shape you left it, you will give her a full months rent in cash. 

At this point, it isn't about what's fair. It's about safely extracting yourself from a very dangerous situation. 




farsidejunky said:


> Take a friend with you back to the house when you return. Retrieve all important stuff and put in storage. Video tape the apartment. Hell, have him video tape the entire encounter.
> 
> Get what matters (bikes, etc.) out. The rest is expendable.


----------



## jdawg2015

MEM11363 said:


> In addition to moving out, I'd let the landlord know that she has already destroyed some of your stuff.
> 
> They will likely ask her to leave/change the locks if she's not on the lease.
> 
> Does she have big stuff - furniture - at the apartment? Or just clothes? Does she have friends she can stay with on short notice?
> 
> If not, you have one other option. Tell her you are moving out, and she can stay until the 15th. And if the apartment is turned over in the same shape you left it, you will give her a full months rent in cash.
> 
> At this point, it isn't about what's fair. It's about safely extracting yourself from a very dangerous situation.


Movers will move my stuff out a few days before leaving. The big stuff is mostly from the furnished apartment. She left all her big stuff in her apartment which she's renting out but the tenant still has over year on lease before she could move back in.

I have a friend on standby tonight to come right over if needed. 

She threatened to call my new employer (have not started yet) and "let them know they are hiring a man who doesn't honour his word and screws over a woman by having her quit her job and then calling off the wedding".

This is what I'm dealing with.


----------



## jdawg2015

Decorum said:


> Just her way of saying "Thank you for all you have done for me".
> 
> I guess it would be stating the obvious if I said that it shows a huge lack of respect and a huge sense of ownership of you (entitlement).
> 
> Obviously peoples actions mirror their inner condition. Fear, Loss of control, the pain of rejection, unwillingness to accept another's free will, anger, vengeance. It sounds like she has never really taken stock of herself as a person and lacks some moral boundaries. It is funny how easy it would be to excuse or "understand" this behavior, but I think it's quite shocking.


Actually hurt me really bad that she would be out to harm me.


----------



## Decorum

jdawg2015 said:


> Actually hurt me really bad that she would be out to harm me.


Painful, so sorry. Please protect yourself.



jdawg2015 said:


> She threatened to call my new employer (have not started yet) and "let them know they are hiring a man who doesn't honour his word and screws over a woman by having her quit her job and then calling off the wedding".


And if you would have divorced her a year later for cheating with one of her male friends the net result would not much different.

You arrived at "irreconcilable differences" in time to call the wedding off.

Having been intransigent and less than forthcoming with french bagger, she pulled the pin on the grenade and it blew up the relationship.

Btw I thought I had deleted that post it seemed a bit trite in light of the current developments. I am horrified for what this is turning out to be for you. Hoping for a peaceful split hereafter.

Take care.


----------



## jdawg2015

Decorum said:


> Painful, so sorry. Please protect yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> And if you would have divorced her a year later for cheating with one of her male friends the net result would not much different.
> 
> You arrived at "irreconcilable differences" in time to call the wedding off.
> 
> Having been intransigent and less than forthcoming with french bagger, she pulled the pin on the grenade and it blew up the relationship.
> 
> Btw I thought I had deleted that post it seemed a bit trite in light of the current developments. I am horrified for what this is turning out to be for you. Hoping for a peaceful split hereafter.
> 
> Take care.


Thanks for the encouraging words. Dealing with heartbreak and her being a lunatic has got my stomach in knots. I actually feel sick from dealing with it. Gotten to be too much.


----------



## jdawg2015

We had long talk after I got home tonight.

She said she felt I no longer happy and she was also not happy with me. She felt she had given up everything and compromised by giving up her male friends. I told her I did not want her to tell forced but it should come natually. She admitted to being slow to transition from so many male friends to being in a marriage.

She also told me she had talked to one of her guy friends who I had issues with and he told her that most guys would be uncomfortable with so many guys floating around. Apparently he admitted could see why I would be pissed (guess I'm not crazy after all).

So she point blank asked where things stand and I said, "I love you very deeply but I think our values are different and we will have issues down the road". 

Amazingly it seemed like she was prepared for it. No rampage like last time and she said she would stay at friends house tonight and move out her stuff while I'm back in the US.

Watching her get on the elevator and knowing this is the end is absolutely gut wrenching. I'm distraught as I want to marry her but know deep down I will get burned eventually.

Got tears running down my face. That's saying something.


----------



## farsidejunky

jdawg2015 said:


> We had long talk after I got home tonight.
> 
> She said she felt I no longer happy and she was also not happy with me. She felt she had given up everything and compromised by giving up her male friends. I told her I did not want her to tell forced but it should come natually. She admitted to being slow to transition from so many male friends to being in a marriage.
> 
> She also told me she had talked to one of her guy friends who I had issues with and he told her that most guys would be uncomfortable with so many guys floating around. Apparently he admitted could see why I would be pissed (guess I'm not crazy after all).
> 
> So she point blank asked where things stand and I said, "I love you very deeply but I think our values are different and we will have issues down the road".
> 
> Amazingly it seemed like she was prepared for it. No rampage like last time and she said she would stay at friends house tonight and move out her stuff while I'm back in the US.
> 
> Watching her get on the elevator and knowing this is the end is absolutely gut wrenching. I'm distraught as I want to marry her but know deep down I will get burned eventually.
> 
> Got tears running down my face. That's saying something.


Sorry, brother.

This is never easy. I think you can take heart in the fact that it is easier now than it is later.

Take this weekend, find some of your buddy's and do something fun. Get dirty and break stuff, come home tired.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I don't know if she truly understands why you feel the way you do and what she needs to do to fix this (and not superficially).

Perhaps she should come here for advice and maybe, if she really gets it, this could be fixable.

What do you think ? I just hate to see good love go bad (as the song says).


----------



## turnera

If you're moving out, too, why not just start taking your stuff to store in a storage unit for a month?


----------



## turnera

manfromlamancha said:


> I don't know if she truly understands why you feel the way you do and what she needs to do to fix this (and not superficially).
> 
> Perhaps she should come here for advice and maybe, if she really gets it, this could be fixable.
> 
> What do you think ? I just hate to see good love go bad (as the song says).


I could not stay with a person who destroys my things because she is mad. That's a serious level of dysfunction.


----------



## Marduk

The bit about "giving up male friends" after all this is pretty telling. She still very much has her head in the sand.

If it's willful she just isn't marriage material right now (at least monogamously so) and if it's not willful then she's due for a major life course correction... which will get very messy, and trust me -- you don't want to be around when it does.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> She also told me she had talked to one of her guy friends who I had issues with and he told her that most guys would be uncomfortable with so many guys floating around. Apparently he admitted could see why I would be pissed (guess I'm not crazy after all).


They always have the right epiphany ........ but the timing makes it ring so insincere.


----------



## NextTimeAround

turnera said:


> I could not stay with a person who destroys my things because she is mad. That's a serious level of dysfunction.


and of outright abuse.


----------



## Chuck71

JDawg.... we posted on a thread a few times and wondered about your back story....

Outside of one poster (guess who) you received A-1 advice.

You dodged a bullet. Your nearly W had similar traits as my 1st love. We dated in 1988-90, started hanging

out about a year ago. She is not M material but is fun to hang out with et. al.

I know better than to fall for her again.... if I didn't, I never would have spent any time with her this year.

By the way... when she stated her H cheated on her, therefore she cheated on him since he "neglected" her needs...

should be translated to "He did not treat her as an entitled princess so she cheated on him"

Maybe he cheated later but I have a strong feeling, she pulled the trigger first.

At first, my ex gf from 2013-14 explained her Ds (yes plural... lol) as they both failed to communicate 

properly and both made serious mistakes. Fast forward a year.... it was all their fault... I tried, they didn't.

That was one of my first red flags for us.


----------



## jdawg2015

Chuck71 said:


> JDawg.... we posted on a thread a few times and wondered about your back story....
> 
> Outside of one poster (guess who) you received A-1 advice.
> 
> You dodged a bullet. Your nearly W had similar traits as my 1st love. We dated in 1988-90, started hanging
> 
> out about a year ago. She is not M material but is fun to hang out with et. al.
> 
> I know better than to fall for her again.... if I didn't, I never would have spent any time with her this year.
> 
> By the way... when she stated her H cheated on her, therefore she cheated on him since he "neglected" her needs...
> 
> should be translated to "He did not treat her as an entitled princess so she cheated on him"
> 
> Maybe he cheated later but I have a strong feeling, she pulled the trigger first.
> 
> At first, my ex gf from 2013-14 explained her Ds (yes plural... lol) as they both failed to communicate
> 
> properly and both made serious mistakes. Fast forward a year.... it was all their fault... I tried, they didn't.
> 
> That was one of my first red flags for us.


I definitely dodged a bullet!

So many things I did not even post too.

Once I snooped and got her passwords and text messages she was cooked. AND, I used photos of some of the texts to show to her her sisters and friends after we split about things she said I was making up.

She's a professional gaslighter. However, she met her match.

Here's a tidbit. She had fb and asked me if any of the friends were exes. I clearly had no ex gfs in there. She was emphatic I did not have any. She also said she's never have an ex bf in fb especially with me. Well guess what, there was and ex in fb and he would always msg her.

Scary is that when we were first together she hid her compulsion to male attention and then her leopard spots came out.

LinkedIn is almost as bad as FB too. She could not understand why I was upset a guy would tell her "call me we can talk my number is "abc12345" and it clearly was not work related. I mean, what could I possibly be upset about? 

I should have gotten rid of her sooner.


----------



## aine

Jdawg, glad you are a survivor!


----------



## NextTimeAround

jdawg2015 said:


> LinkedIn is almost as bad as FB too. She could not understand why I was upset a guy would tell her "call me we can talk my number is "abc12345" and it clearly was not work related. I mean, what could I possibly be upset about?


My husband ignore the request to connect on LinkedIn from his one time special friend.


----------



## jdawg2015

NextTimeAround said:


> My husband ignore the request to connect on LinkedIn from his one time special friend.


She had a male co-worker (he was also married). They would do full lunch and then spend another 30-45 minutes at Starbucks afterwards. This was a guy she did not even directly work with.

One time she invited me to lunch to meet him. All was good. 

Then there was a stretch she mentioned his name and talked about him literally 7 days straight. The would also text at night after work. Definitely red flags popping up in my head. I knew was a waste to ask her as she'd say I was controlling blah blah blah.

Edit to add: My fiancé told me about how the guy telling her about his wife's miscarriage, how she had gained a lot of weight, how his wife travelled for work a lot and full details about his wife's work schedule. So needless to say it was just way too much to sit back and say or do nothing....

So, I found out his wife's facebook and messaged her. She had no idea who my fiancé was let alone the sheer about of contact or lunches. When my fiancé found out she was furious and said it was embarrassing etc and that I "had no trust in her". hahaha

Needless to say the guys wife flipped out.

Another tidbit about these lunches. Her female co worker asked me if I was aware about the long lunches. So I was not the only one who though things just a bit too much.

I need share all the BS and gaslighting she did.


----------



## Lostinthought61

while you dodge the bullet with her, next guy she gets her hooks on probably won't, he may not see it coming, its a shame she will never learn.


----------



## jdawg2015

Here's another nugget for those who followed this story....

The French "bag" guy who I had major issues with I found out the whole backstory. At that time (prior to me) she had and on/off relationship with some guy according to her version. Supposedly during the "off" time she met little Frenchman on an online dating website. She and him swear they just met only as friends never anything more, etc. 

So I managed to get the email of the on/off BF. First I had to convince him that I was legit and not her trying to get info. I finally got him on the phone and the deal was he was from the UK and would live majority of his time in Singapore but travel for work. There was no "on/off". And guess who was the person he found out about and had issues with? The little Napoleon. In my best Gomer Pyle voice, "surprise, surprise". I now have her ex bf as a FB friend. HAHAHA. We both feel like we dodged Jeffrey Dahmer.

Even me fiancés sister said my fiancé has issues. My fiancé used to tell her sister and friends how much she loved me and that I was her genie and yet could not see fit that having guys messaging to come visit her is not things done in a marriage and by people on their 40s.

Thankfully I took photos of some of the things I saw as she really had me painted as a jealous controlling male chauvinist. When I showed her best friend some if it she actually apologized to me. Based on what my fiancé has told her she said she thought I had become a jerk etc and that she definitely learned to understand both sides before drawing conclusions. My ex fiancé I know is pissed about it as she text me saying, "nice try selling your story to V". 

It's easier now to reveal some of this but honestly was shocking and hurt bad to even talk about it. I felt like a total fool so I can empathize with people going through the ups and downs of this kind of crap on TAM.

One thing I know for sure, my gut was spot on in the relationship. OSF will be a very early topic of any other relationship I have.


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## Chuck71

It's pure speculation to say she was this way in her

1st M. Since her D, she has played the field and used guys,

just as they have her. It was adventurous, exciting... but she

still longed for that "special someone." You come along, want 

something serious, she loves it... but doesn't quite know how to

let go of her "guys on the side." She gets greedy and conspires

to want both.... she just has to throw those other guys a bone,

until she ropes you in by M.

I developed a matra back in my 20's... women will trade sex for 

attention and men attention for sex. Maybe she missed out on 

her 20s... the freedom to date whomever. After her D she wanted

to make up for lost time. I find it doubtful she examined her issues

after her D. 

With the explosion of social media in the last twenty years... some

women who claim to seek "that special someone" also find it hard to

take themselves off the market when that guy comes along. Same 

could be said for guys who enjoy ONS / FWB but want one woman.

When she comes along.... he has to give those up.

Dawg..... from what you were told, what was her childhood like?


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## jdawg2015

Chuck71 said:


> Dawg..... from what you were told, what was her childhood like?


Keep in mind she is a Singaporean (Chinese Singaporean) and her mother and father are now 70 years old. So you have to understand some of the culture to get it. I'm an American....

She is the oldest of three daughters. Her father ran around on the mother quite a bit and my fiancé I think saw and understood it while growing up. the mother tolerated it for the kids and of course in that time period is was somewhat prevalent.

My fiancé has a very strained relationship with her father. They really don't socialize at all. Not like you see him give her the usual father daughter hug when we would leave after a visit, etc. She always would talk about how her dad was bad to her mother.

I'm sure this plays into how she thinks.

Her two younger sisters are totally different. Very typical conservative Singaporeans who are married with kids and stable marriages. She's the wild child.


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## tripad

jdawg2015 said:


> Chuck71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dawg..... from what you were told, what was her childhood like?
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind she is a Singaporean (Chinese Singaporean) and her mother and father are now 70 years old. So you have to understand some of the culture to get it. I'm an American....
> 
> She is the oldest of three daughters. Her father ran around on the mother quite a bit and my fiancé I think saw and understood it while growing up. the mother tolerated it for the kids and of course in that time period is was somewhat prevalent.
> 
> My fiancé has a very strained relationship with her father. They really don't socialize at all. Not like you see him give her the usual father daughter hug when we would leave after a visit, etc. She always would talk about how her dad was bad to her mother.
> 
> I'm sure this plays into how she thinks.
> 
> Her two younger sisters are totally different. Very typical conservative Singaporeans who are married with kids and stable marriages. She's the wild child.
Click to expand...


The oldest girl so she's probably closer to mum and feel the most .

One of my gf is similar to her . And i am singaporean as well . But with education , this generation has become a little more westernized but yet kept the traditional culture . Odd mix .


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## jdawg2015

tripad said:


> The oldest girl so she's probably closer to mum and feel the most .
> 
> One of my gf is similar to her . And i am singaporean as well . But with education , this generation has become a little more westernized but yet kept the traditional culture . Odd mix .


Yup, she's close to mom. Practically does not speak to her dad other than hi and bye.

HAHA. Wonder if you know my ex fiancé.

You are definitely right about Singapore, a mixing pot of Western and Asian culture.


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## tripad

jdawg2015 said:


> tripad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The oldest girl so she's probably closer to mum and feel the most .
> 
> One of my gf is similar to her . And i am singaporean as well . But with education , this generation has become a little more westernized but yet kept the traditional culture . Odd mix .
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, she's close to mom. Practically does not speak to her dad other than hi and bye.
> 
> HAHA. Wonder if you know my ex fiancé.
> 
> You are definitely right about Singapore, a mixing pot of Western and Asian culture.
Click to expand...


Jdawg

I don't know her . I am sure .

From my gf who played the field previously , she said it was revenge to mankind as she saw her dad played woman and hurt her mum and she grew up watching her mum sob . She said she doesn't feel anything for any guy . She's married and she's a mum now . Dont think she's fooling around anymore but she doesnt have a great relationship with husband . She said she played too much n broke too many hearts of nice boys and then nice guys stayed away from her when words got around . 

In her words , she married becoz she just needed the sperm to reproduce . But she loves her children . 

Yes relationship with her dad sucks . She bought an apartment for mum in her sole name and told her dad to better make mum happy or he gets the boot to the roadside .

The sin of the forefathers has ripple effects to the next generation . Sigh . 

It may not be entirely her fault . Though she is at fault . She is what she is due to life's exoeriences . We all are . You are just collateral damage .


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## Chuck71

tripad said:


> Jdawg
> 
> I don't know her . I am sure .
> 
> From my gf who played the field previously , she said it was revenge to mankind as she saw her dad played woman and hurt her mum and she grew up watching her mum sob . She said she doesn't feel anything for any guy . She's married and she's a mum now . Dont think she's fooling around anymore but she doesnt have a great relationship with husband . She said she played too much n broke too many hearts of nice boys and then nice guys stayed away from her when words got around .
> 
> In her words , she married becoz she just needed the sperm to reproduce . But she loves her children .
> 
> Yes relationship with her dad sucks . She bought an apartment for mum in her sole name and told her dad to better make mum happy or he gets the boot to the roadside .
> 
> The sin of the forefathers has ripple effects to the next generation . Sigh .
> 
> It may not be entirely her fault . Though she is at fault . She is what she is due to life's exoeriences . We all are . You are just collateral damage .


Very well stated..... one generation can damage the next 3-4.

Where I grew up, rural South.... there were girls who played hard to get. To the point.... they didn't get got.

They priced themselves out of the market.

Just like with students graduating where I lecture.... many students are from "up North"

$30 per hour in Chicago, NYC, Boston.... fair amount to ask with MBA....

here.... priced themselves out of market. $15-18.... maybe... not $30. Cost of living here is extremely low.

As in seeking a spouse / job .... one should never settle but be wary of overpricing one's desires.


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