# Which way is up?



## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

First thread, first post, new member. I've seen a ton of advice given on this board, good, bad, and other. I am in need of the collective advice.

I'm a WS who had an EA a few years ago. Through the grace of my W, we've been in R since then. I've done about everything wrong there is: gaslight, big fog, denied, TT, self protection. I seem to need a 2x4 to get most things. The only thing I did right is NC. My W is walking wounded now and is exhausted and at the end of her rope.

I haven't had any support system outside of my W through the past year of R. My family is out of state and are social morons, friends are fair weather. I don't have a sounding board. I've learned that I have some passive aggressive tendencies and some dependency issues. I'm working in IC and MC to get over myself.

My W is strong and independent. She's not someone you can convince her of something once she's made up her mind. She has loved me more than anyone here can know. At present, she doesn't want to love me. During R, she told me what she needed - to know that i wasn't pushing my boundaries and to know when any woman tested mine.

I want to be married to this woman. I am interested in nobody else.

Here's my problem. I woman flirted with me, I blew it off and I chose to not tell my wife. When it happened again, I told my wife. I then proceeded to minimize it. She didn't buy it. Now I'm on the couch and we're talking divorce.

What I need help from you is, I don't know why I chose to not come clean immediately. I'm not interested in this person at all. So, am I kidding myself and I don't want to be married and doing this to sabotage our marriage?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Zips said:


> So, am I kidding myself...?


Yes.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Zips,

The hard thing about marriage is that you can NOT control the other partner. She can choose to end it, just like you chose to violate it.

Hard lesson to accept sometimes. 

As a BH I tend to empathize with your wife. The result of infidelity is often divorce. At best there is H#ll to pay for both of you.

You are probably doing the best you can, at this point. Maybe you can learn from it. You can be a better husband to her, or someone else if this marriage ends.

Good luck! I am sure you will find valuable information here.


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm sorry. On the other side of infidelity, the topography of marriage is completely different. The "right" behavior should be front of your mind, all the time.

If you are still having trouble figuring out why you are doing this, it might explain how you got into this, to begin with. I recommend IC.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Why are you asking us what you are thinking/doing? You're a grown man. Make the decision to be a good, faithful husband, or don't. 

" So, am I kidding myself and I don't want to be married and doing this to sabotage our marriage?"

You tell us. Free will - you have it.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm sorry. As a BS I am certainly in your wife's camp; but, reporting when someone flirts with you seems a fool's errand. What consititued flirting? Did some woman say good morning to you or did her phone number end up in your mobile.....

And when you dutifully reported the event, YOU are on the couch?

R is a process;but, it is not a license to terrorize the formerly cheating spouse. Can you live in a relationship like this?

I would calmly sit down and tell my wife you are supportive of her and the relationship but what you have right now is not worth keeping. If the relationship is so broken that what someone else does to you leads to you being on the couch, maybe it's time to move on.

Good luck


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm sorry. As a BS I am certainly in your wife's camp; but, reporting when someone flirts with you seems a fool's errand. What consititued flirting? Did some woman say good morning to you or did her phone number end up in your mobile.....

And when you dutifully reported the event, YOU are on the couch?

R is a process;but, it is not a license to terrorize the formerly cheating spouse. Can you live in a relationship like this?

I would calmly sit down and tell my wife you are supportive of her and the relationship but what you have right now is not worth keeping. If the relationship is so broken that what someone else does to you leads to you being on the couch, maybe it's time to move on.

Good luck


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

KanDo said:


> I'm sorry. As a BS I am certainly in your wife's camp; but, reporting when someone flirts with you seems a fool's errand. What consititued flirting? Did some woman say good morning to you or did her phone number end up in your mobile.....
> 
> And when you dutifully reported the event, YOU are on the couch?
> 
> ...


The flirting was after she asked for help, she was all like "You're a God sent lifesaver! You're going to be my resident expert!" She was feeling her way in both times. I'm on the couch because 1) I withheld information and 2) did not shut her down, but rather kept the conversation alive by asking her questions about the subject. And flirting was how my EA began (I don't, as a rule, flirt or dole out compliments or even 'thank yous')

I've triggered my wife. She says that I'm doing the same things I did leading up to my godforsaken EA. She won't hear anything else. I can see her side here. Since R started, I have not given anything of myself to anyone else. This is no exception. But I'm confused as to why I withheld any information. That's mostly why I'm here.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Healer said:


> Why are you asking us what you are thinking/doing? You're a grown man. Make the decision to be a good, faithful husband, or don't.
> 
> " So, am I kidding myself and I don't want to be married and doing this to sabotage our marriage?"
> 
> You tell us. Free will - you have it.


I really don't feel like I'm kidding myself. I love this woman. I've asked myself if I want to be with her so many times and I always come back with YES reasons. I just flat out want to be with this lady.

But she asked me why her? why now? why why why? and my explanations are not good enough. it's almost like the ONLY answer she'll accept is that I want out and that I'm sabotaging our reconciliation. I'm spinning so fast I don't know which way is up.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't understand what you have done wrong?

Have you and your wife come to an agreement at what constitutes flirting as opposed to a normal conversation or request for help?

Is there more to this than you are saying?

It sounds as though your wife is being controlling. Bear in mind my wife had a several year intense EA that turned into a several year intense PA, but even I wouldn't think twice if my wife told me about that conversation.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Zips said:


> I really don't feel like I'm kidding myself. I love this woman. I've asked myself if I want to be with her so many times and I always come back with YES reasons. I just flat out want to be with this lady.
> 
> But she asked me why her? why now? why why why? and my explanations are not good enough. it's almost like the ONLY answer she'll accept is that I want out and that I'm sabotaging our reconciliation. I'm spinning so fast I don't know which way is up.


This and Chris989 made me wonder what else might be going on.

It sounds like a piece of the story is missing. I would assume that you would not TT us. I am wondering where your wife is with her emotions.

Is she tired of being hurt? Is she angry? Is she letting go? Has she found someone else?

Not trying to start anything, but revenge is sometimes a factor when you are the BS. This could range from being mean all the way to having an affair. 

Do you see any red flags from her?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Zips said:


> The flirting was after she asked for help, she was all like "You're a God sent lifesaver! You're going to be my resident expert!" She was feeling her way in both times. I'm on the couch because 1) I withheld information and 2) did not shut her down, but rather kept the conversation alive by asking her questions about the subject. And flirting was how my EA began (I don't, as a rule, flirt or dole out compliments or even 'thank yous')
> 
> I've triggered my wife. She says that I'm doing the same things I did leading up to my godforsaken EA. She won't hear anything else. I can see her side here. Since R started, I have not given anything of myself to anyone else. This is no exception. But I'm confused as to why I withheld any information. That's mostly why I'm here.


From what i have read when a husband has an EA the devastation for the wife is on par with what a husband goes through with a wife in a PA. To know your husband connected so deeply with another woman....heartbreaking. 

Did you confess your EA or did she find out through other means? You were very lucky that she decided to reconcile. If you were smart you would avoid contact with other women. I mean avoid any and all unnecessary contact with women to honor the gift of reconciliation. Boundaries, develop them, honor them. 

By flirting, not shutting the woman down and then concealing you have crushed your wife once again. Trust is a fragile thing.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

This is part of the ups and downs of R after and EA or PA. It sounds like you are in MC and IC right now. You need to talk it over with them. If your wife is not going, you still go and do not stop. I get telling her about the flirting my wife now tells me everything and sometimes it is too much.

Just keep the lines of communication open and keep talking


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I don't understand what you have done wrong?
> 
> Have you and your wife come to an agreement at what constitutes flirting as opposed to a normal conversation or request for help?
> 
> ...



I agree
If boundries at not clearly set then how do you or your wife know when they have been crossed? I think you need to admit that you like the attention of the "flirting" otherwise you would have shut that person down post haste. I to am a BS and can see things from your spouses point of view. Myself, I never could forgive, forget or even think about R because I knew my EX was dealing with a PD I couldn't change.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I don't understand what you have done wrong?
> 
> Have you and your wife come to an agreement at what constitutes flirting as opposed to a normal conversation or request for help?
> 
> ...


What I did wrong was minimize. My EA started with me excluding my wife and minimizing my actions. She sees me on the same path that nearly destroyed us before.

We have had many talks about what constitutes flirting - basically any and all unnecessary conversation or ego stroking.

Is there more to this than I'm saying? Well, we're not very secure in our R. I've been fairly trusting (dense) and when I go out and believe the best in people, she believes that makes me vulnerable to another affair. She's generally untrusting. So when I minimize it equates to lying by omission. And that's true. These are some of the points that make this 'regular' kind of conversation into an exploding point at home.

For sure, it was stupid of me to withhold and minimize. I've held my boundaries just fine. And then I didn't. Could that mean that subconsciously I'm rejecting R, her rules, and thus her?

I know it sounds like such a [email protected] mind at work, but I'm going crazy at the WHY of it all.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> This and Chris989 made me wonder what else might be going on.
> 
> It sounds like a piece of the story is missing. I would assume that you would not TT us. I am wondering where your wife is with her emotions.
> 
> ...


The only red flag from her is that her AP from a prior marriage is moving back to town. He's always "been there" for her.

She told him to go away before a few times. He keeps returning. He let it be known that one of his reasons for coming back was because he was sure I'd screw up again.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Zips said:


> The flirting was after she asked for help, she was all like "You're a God sent lifesaver! You're going to be my resident expert!"
> 
> Yeah, call me insanely jealous but that would really hack me off too. My husband is not going to anyone's resident expert, and any woman under 80 better not call him a God sent lifesaver (except under truly emergency life saving situations).
> 
> ...


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm thinking you kind of asked for this. If the converasation was as innocent as you imply, then why say anything at all. So, from your wife's view, you must feel guilty. Therefore, you must have done something wrong. She might be right in this scenario.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Zips said:


> The only red flag from her is that her AP from a prior marriage is moving back to town. He's always "been there" for her.
> 
> She told him to go away before a few times. He keeps returning. He let it be known that one of his reasons for coming back was because he was sure I'd screw up again.


Ok, I'll bow out at this time as that sounds like a hook I am not biting (or should I say feeding?). Good luck.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Zips said:


> The only red flag from her is that her AP from a prior marriage is moving back to town. He's always "been there" for her.
> 
> She told him to go away before a few times. He keeps returning. He let it be known that one of his reasons for coming back was because he was sure I'd screw up again.


Whoa, whoa, whoa! Her AP? From when she was previously married? Oh dear. 

Hmmm, maybe she's subconsciously decided you aren't worth the headache and heartaches after all. Especially if he's "always been there" for her. 

I suggest a return to marriage counselling ASAP!


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> From what i have read when a husband has an EA the devastation for the wife is on par with what a husband goes through with a wife in a PA. To know your husband connected so deeply with another woman....heartbreaking.
> 
> Did you confess your EA or did she find out through other means? You were very lucky that she decided to reconcile. If you were smart you would avoid contact with other women. I mean avoid any and all unnecessary contact with women to honor the gift of reconciliation. Boundaries, develop them, honor them.
> 
> By flirting, not shutting the woman down and then concealing you have crushed your wife once again. Trust is a fragile thing.


She found out through other means. It was bad. I was in total denial. it took months before I saw what I had done.

Avoid women, I sure do try. I got a new job. I report to a woman. The building has one other man. seriously. I'm known as a recluse around here.

I am sure of my boundaries. I had none. I have them in place now. I don't understand of myself why, given what I'm sure of on boundaries, I just tripped over my d**k.

She's never given me any trust since the EA. She just swallows things for her own sanity. I don't blame her there. She's not, by nature, trusting. I am in the midst of shaking passive aggressive behaviors. We all know that p/a have problems being truly clean.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

dormant said:


> I'm thinking you kind of asked for this. If the converasation was as innocent as you imply, then why say anything at all. So, from your wife's view, you must feel guilty. Therefore, you must have done something wrong. She might be right in this scenario.


What i feel guilty about is that I hadn't told her of the first flirt. The lies by omission are the compounding factor.

The convo itself was something that I imagine has happened at least once in everyone's work life. I've had inappropriate conversations that were damming. This is a flirtatious woman just doing what she does. That's not ok, but it's nothing that i control.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Zips said:


> What i feel guilty about is that I hadn't told her of the first flirt. The lies by omission are the compounding factor.
> 
> The convo itself was something that I imagine has happened at least once in everyone's work life. I've had inappropriate conversations that were damming. This is a flirtatious woman just doing what she does. That's not ok, but it's nothing that i control.


My point is, why say anything about it? Just asking for trouble.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa! Her AP? From when she was previously married? Oh dear.
> 
> Hmmm, maybe she's subconsciously decided you aren't worth the headache and heartaches after all. Especially if he's "always been there" for her.
> 
> I suggest a return to marriage counselling ASAP!


Aw, Sh!t Aunt Ava! I was thinking that I was having a subconscious war alone. I didn't consider that my W would be there. That really is.... I just don't know. That's another potential wrench.

MC appt is 9/6.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

dormant said:


> My point is, why say anything about it? Just asking for trouble.


I feel if I hide anything where women are involved and she finds out either because I slip up or more covert ways, I'm a goner.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Zips said:


> The only red flag from her is that her AP from a prior marriage is moving back to town. He's always "been there" for her.
> 
> She told him to go away before a few times. He keeps returning. He let it be known that one of his reasons for coming back was because he was sure I'd screw up again.


sounds like her AP is a wise man.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> sounds like her AP is a wise man.


He's broken up 3 marriages that I know of, I know he slept with yet another man's wife... Yeah, he's a real hero.

I may not be a prize catch, but I'm doing what I can.


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## Zips (Aug 20, 2013)

Tomara said:


> I agree
> If boundries at not clearly set then how do you or your wife know when they have been crossed? I think you need to admit that you like the attention of the "flirting" otherwise you would have shut that person down post haste. I to am a BS and can see things from your spouses point of view. Myself, I never could forgive, forget or even think about R because I knew my EX was dealing with a PD I couldn't change.


You may have a good point for us, Tomara. With regard to what is and is not acceptable/reportable, we set the law when R was just starting and I was still coming out of my denial. Maybe it's time to revisit that list. Not tonight, she's full blown triggered. It may need to hold until MC. It's worth a suggestion.

I used to really feed off of the flirting. I own that. With feeling the damage I've done through it, flirts now give me the uh-oh feeling.

Nobody that knows me or us or our troubles thinks that I have a PD. I got issues like the rest of the world. We're working on the ones that are in the way.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

Zips said:


> You may have a good point for us, Tomara. With regard to what is and is not acceptable/reportable, we set the law when R was just starting and I was still coming out of my denial. Maybe it's time to revisit that list. Not tonight, she's full blown triggered. It may need to hold until MC. It's worth a suggestion.
> 
> I used to really feed off of the flirting. I own that. With feeling the damage I've done through it, flirts now give me the uh-oh feeling.
> 
> Nobody that knows me or us or our troubles thinks that I have a PD. I got issues like the rest of the world. We're working on the ones that are in the way.


You admitted to passive agressive behavior. Do you not think this is a PD? Oh h3ll yes it is, goes along with narsacistic PD. I know, my ex had them both. Example I know to well, I buy a puppy, husband calls in from business trip, I tell him we have a new puppy. He doesn't say anything to me but instead goes out and hires a hooker! His way of paying me back. When we divorced, he wanted the dog. I was like oh no you don't, I earned that dog! lol. Step back and take a look at this mess you are calling a marriage. She is a cheater and you are one. Do you really think that those two things can be fixed as a couple? I think you can in another relationship but the one you are in is in trouble. Oh well, your MC should be of some help. I wish you the best. You can't go through life without talking to the other sex unless you crawl under a rock and stay there.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

You minimized because deep down you liked the attention outside of marriage. You have poor boundaries and you are not a marriage material.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

She's on hyper alert and is uber sensitive to anything involving other women at this point, and it's understandable. It's justifiable paranoia. Infidelity does that to people. It sucks ass. I chose to divorce my WW instead of living with that fear. Life's too short.


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