# What do you do when...



## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Have you ever had this experience.. if so what did you do that WORKED!!! LOL

The man says things that are so vague when you ask a question, that you push for explanation so that you don't end up with bald spot from all the head scratching. He finally says what he means and you go "See, now if you said THAT to beign with, then I would have gotten it!!" Meanwhile, pushing for that "makes sense now" explanation frustrates the hell out of the guy to where you finally get the explanation but now he is all ticked off...

Example: Me/him both have kids, his late teens early 20's: convo:
Him: Well having a relationship is awkward right now.
Me: What do you mean by awkward:
Him: it hard for me
Me: what part of it, I don't know what you mean. How is it akward?
Him: WTF... I feel like spend half my time explaining myself to you! (getting all huffy)
Me: well, awkward doesn't really tell me much, yet you say it all the time, but never what it means, I actually would like to know.
Him: *insert ridiculous rant in frustration that goes on for 5 minutes about how he is always explaining himself* finally... 
Him: It's hard because I want to be spending more time with my kids, working on things.
Me: Is THAT what you meant? Well hell, if you said that I would have encouraged you, supported you, and just said "good, you do that, that's GREAT!!!!!!!!!!" but never once did you ever say THAT to me... all you said was youWISHED you could do that but they are never around. I had no idea that was even an option! Why didn't you just say that to begin with... had no clue that's what "awkward" was supposed to mean!!!
Him: *more rant"
me: calm down... I get it now... but if you hate the explanation, maybe just say what you mean to start, or at least something a little closer. THIS is what I mean about our communication... it sux! 
Him: finally calm "but that's just me"
me: well, maybe that's something to work on a little... cuz you know.. if that's just you, then maybe that's part of the problems with other people, like the kids you talk about. You get frustrated when they don't get what you mean either.
Him: ya, I guess (but now all dejected and pouting)



OK... so how do I avoid the over frustration and then him feeling dejected?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Is he unhappy?

If not, then stop interrogating him.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I saw previously that there has been some discussion as to whether or not your 'dude friend' has some kind of social disorder ... perhaps even a mild form of autism.

Can't tell you if that is the case or not.

What I can tell you as the parent of a mildly autistic child is that if you were to ask my son; "What do you mean?"
Every time YOU didn't understand what he was trying to convey, you would get the exact, if not far worse, reaction that your friend displayed.

My son has improved by leaps and bounds in terms of being able to have a conversation. It isn't that he's slow, far from it. It's that his mind is racing about what the correct response is and how to say it. And the tragic fact is ... sometimes he has no clue what the correct words are to make someone understand him. He stumbles, he will restart a sentence five times, pause, stutter, and when he gets it out I'm not frustrated, I beam with pride.

For my son, the pressure of realizing that he hasn't been understood, then means he has virtually zero chance of trying to order his thoughts into something that you or I would understand.
He isn't trying to avoid answering the question. He simply doesn't have the ability to order his thought and communication process as you or I do. Consequently, he gets extremely anxious and may melt down as a result.

So, my point is, dial back on "What do you mean?" or "I don't understand?"
Ask leading questions instead of probing or analytical questions.
If I were to consider his answer from the perspective of someone with social deficits, his answer is crystal clear and makes obvious and perfect sense. "Having a relationship is awkward right now." 
means:

I don't know how to have one. They make me anxious and I'm not good at it.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

fwiw, it doesn't sound like interrogating to me, it sounds like asking for an explanation of a comment designed to make a (some) woman question at least part of the relationship:
If someone you are in a relationship with says something (anything) you don't understand, and providing it's not an instantaneous knee-jerk reaction - I do those rather too well for my OH's liking, so I know the difference  - why SHOULDN't you ask what do you mean or why or whatever question seems likely to get more explanation:scratchhead:


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Hmmm it gets hard when he gets equally frustrated when I don't understand LOL Leading questions though... got an example? given the case I gave.. I am interested in making communication easier for him, or figuring out how to understand... it does not feel like too much to ask of me (as long as he knows I am trying, and MAYBE takes half a step to help me out?)

He says he wants the relationship, tell me what he wants from it, but I don't get what he is saying as it is really vague and so hard to act on or say if I can give that (when I ask... so then you don't want/can't have a relationship... he says, no THAT'S not it either...) so I have to ask... THEN WHAT IS IT!!!! HAHAHAHA


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Have you ever had this experience.. if so what did you do that WORKED!!! LOL
> 
> The man says things that are so vague when you ask a question, that you push for explanation so that you don't end up with bald spot from all the head scratching. He finally says what he means and you go "See, now if you said THAT to beign with, then I would have gotten it!!" Meanwhile, pushing for that "makes sense now" explanation frustrates the hell out of the guy to where you finally get the explanation but now he is all ticked off...
> 
> ...


It is awkward and hard for him. Why is this difficult to understand?

Sounds like he is saying I don't want a relationship right now. Why do you need to push him?

Sounds like you are not in a relationship right now. This is a very good time to do some thinking about right fighting. You view your PoV as so very RIGHT. This is one of the leading causes of relationship woe.





> OK... so how do I avoid the over frustration and then him feeling dejected?


Listen to what he says and back off him.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

But what about the mixed messages as when i say.. then you don't want a relationship, he says, yes I do.. when he DOES explain himself, I totally DO get it and then any discussion on it is MUCH easier for him AND me, which is what leads me to believe that communication is a BIG problem.

Here, when we got down to the awkward thing and he explained what it is with his kids... I was able to say "I hope you don't think I wanted to keep you from them, in fact I would TOTALLY support that any way you asked me to!!" I just said, tell me what you need THERE and you got it!!! And on his end... the frustration just ended and his tone of voice went back to totally civil. So there is a mixed message (he wants the relationship but not to put ANY effort into it.. I get it, BUT, just being more direct and not so cryptic alone would cut the effort on both sides WAY the hell down LOL)

We are not IN the relationship, but talking and both saying we want it, but not sure what it is we want OF it... hence the talking about it a bit before we step back in and one of us gets hurt again or it is pushed too quickly to what it once was (or hoped to be).

He is looking to me to react a certain way to what he says, and when I don't HE gets frustrated, but then gets what he wants from me when he is a tad more specific with what he says... And yes, I need to find a better way to find his meaning... 

head banging on wall though when it ends up so damn easy after he DOES finally just spit out what he means LOL (he gets really mad when I make the wrong assumption/guess)


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

woodstock said:


> Hmmm it gets hard when he gets equally frustrated when I don't understand


Which is what I'm saying. Please keep in mind, I'm factoring in what you have been told about him by his family, and what you have observed, and my experience with my son. That's where I'm coming from. That is the perspective of my input. I'm presuming this guy IS socially challenged.

Switch roles for a moment. You don't think like other people think. You don't even perceive communication the way other people do. You have someone in your life that you want to be close to ... and they don't think like you do. And they keep telling you that in order for them to feel closer to you, they want you to communicate with them ... and when you do, they don't understand you. And basically, the message that you keep getting from them is; "Try harder ..."

It's the equivalent of you speaking French and his speaking Latin, and you can't understand why he just doesn't say what he has to say in French.

Can you see why he might find being in a relationship 'awkward'?

You are asking him for a roadmap and he is a GPS. All he can do is respond to the journey you have plugged in - he cannot articulate where the journey should go. That's up to you.




> LOL Leading questions though... got an example? given the case I gave.. I am interested in making communication easier for him, or figuring out how to understand... it does not feel like too much to ask of me (as long as he knows I am trying, and MAYBE takes half a step to help me out?)
> 
> He says he wants the relationship, tell me what he wants from it, but I don't get what he is saying as it is really vague and so hard to act on or say if I can give that (when I ask... so then you don't want/can't have a relationship... he says, no THAT'S not it either...) so I have to ask... THEN WHAT IS IT!!!! HAHAHAHA


What if he couldn't possibly convey to you what a relationship is, or is supposed to be? Does that mean you aren't in one?

This man is NOT going to drive or lead this relationship. I suspect that he can't.

You are looking for answers. He isn't even aware there are questions. So when there are ... he flat out doesn't understand. And importantly ... you are not ever going to be able to change that about him. Nor should you try.

If you aren't getting what you need out of this arrangement, then I strongly suggest you move on. You can't fix him - ain't your job, and quite honestly, he doesn't need fixing. What he needs is someone to learn his language instead of insisting he learns yours - because he can't.

I'll give you a very common example of dealing with my son on a typical day. The scenario is getting ready for school.
He has been instructed to go up to his room and get himself dressed. No sign of the boy fifteen minutes later. Go upstairs to his room, he is playing with action figures in his underwear.

If I ask: "Buddy, why aren't you dressed?"
He CANNOT answer or fathom the point of that question. He would get anxious, defensive, and upset if I persisted with him explaining to me why he hasn't gotten himself dressed.

If I say: "Hey, are you going to go to school in your underwear?"
He responds with a smile and a laugh and says, "No! Silly."

Me: "Ok. Then what should you do next?"
Him: Reaches for pants. Puts them on.
Me: "Then what's next?" 
Him: Reaches for shirt. And so on ...

Make sense? Him telling me why he has difficulty getting dressed is irrelevant contrasted with the goal - his being dressed and ready to go to school.
Oh, and importantly? We are going to go through the exact same process the next day ... and the day after and so on. Eventually, the routine and flow starts to stick. He will now get himself dressed and come downstairs and we do the happy, proud dance. Change for him ... is very long , and very slow. 

Translating this to your efforts at a relationship with this man; you're going to need patience. Lots of it.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Bit of good news in all this.... hrm ya, he got a bit huffy, but I held back on returning that, and was able to settle it down fix a moment and let it go... maybe next time he gives me uber vague... I will have something to get to the bottom of it with less pushing, then it's MUCH better.. It's just getting there that is the problem here (even HE said he liked my reaction to what he actually meant about the kids... so maybe there is hope? LOL)


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Deejo, I do get what you are saying... I guess part of the problem is that it is easier to place all that on a child (or an adult you have known since childhood or where it's more obvious that is the problem) but I guess I am struggling with putting that on a 49 year old man, where I am not even sure that is the problem (not that obvious)... I think that makes sense HAHA But, in sense, I DO see something in the conversation you relayed here about your son in the morning that kind of scares me a little bit (in that maybe this really IS real and there is the OH crap CAN this be dealt with?) 



SO will take that to heart, and think about it a bit... Still trying to wrap my head around him actually having a problem and not just kind of being a joke? (not being mean, just not sure I ever took the idea totally seriously and let some of it become the butt of "such a man" jokes)

I do have experience dealing with autism in children and various mental disabilities in adults, but not aspergers. It poses a special challenge because it is not always obvious, and almost harder to grasp and understand because of that. (and there is still that feeling of "dammit you are being lazy and selfish" that carries over from before and I am now wondering if that is the case or not)


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

And that's the way it goes for people on the spectrum that don't have 'classic' autism.

You wouldn't SEE a blessed thing wrong with my son. He is a handsome, happy, active little boy.

Despite having a diagnosis for years, and several teams of specialists, it is only as of about six months ago that his grandparents (ex's parents) actually and finally acknowledged that he is autistic. Prior to that, they *chuckle* presumed that he was lazy, willful, and manipulative and that his mother and I were doting, over-tolerant, and sh!tty parents.

Shift your perspective. Whether his issues are genuine or not ... and see if it makes an impact.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Deejo said:


> And that's the way it goes for people on the spectrum that don't have 'classic' autism.
> 
> You wouldn't SEE a blessed thing wrong with my son. He is a handsome, happy, active little boy.
> 
> ...


I will definitely work on that, though I admit it is going to take me some time to do... I may ask you things down the line if I think they relate, if that is OK with you... especially since i totally see something in the way you related your conversation with your son...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Ask away. I just want to be clear about my frame of reference. If I plug my son as an adult into your scenario ... this stuff is absolutely as clear as day to me.

But ... the reality is that I have no idea what is going on with your friend.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Honestly, Tizz, I think Deejo is giving you some of the best advice I've ever heard in dealing with Bob. It makes so much sense. I'm just at a loss that I never thought of it.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Honestly, Tizz, I think Deejo is giving you some of the best advice I've ever heard in dealing with Bob. It makes so much sense. I'm just at a loss that I never thought of it.


I KNOW!!!! Scary as hell... and I always kind of left that a joke ya know? NOW the question is.... can I adapt, see him differently, and accept... not sure it is a lot to consider and will take some werious sinking in.. and you know him, you KNOW I can't suggest. hint or offer the possibility that this might be the real problem..

Now I am even more confused, and in a few ways more scared... You know me, you know the situation as well as anyone can... WTF do I do with this?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

The real question is, do you love him even if his behavior for the total of the last years is who he is?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Trenton said:


> The real question is, do you love him even if his behavior for the total of the last years is who he is?


Not sure... of course things change when you add reason, but now thinking IF that's it... can I get around it or not....

I was looking at adult asp's and it's maybe maybe not, a few things fit, most don't... but like I said.. if it is, it's very slight, but still would make things understandable and as deejo pointed out, there are ways I can communicate that work for him while providing me what I am looking for....

There is a difference between acting one way because you are a selfish ass as opposed to really not being able to see something (in which maybe it would have been different had I know and expressed myself to him differently)...see?

Can't begin to answer that question yet


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

To be clear ... my son is not Asperger's. His acronym laden diagnosis is as follows: PDDNOS with ADHD and Language Delay.

He is expressive, empathetic, and generally very happy. The heartbreak is that as he gets older, he knows he's different. He wants friends ... and has absolutely no idea how to go about accomplishing that.

He's great in one on one's. Terrible in a crowd. Easily overwhelmed and over-stimulated.

If I originally presumed that your friend was 'normal', then by all accounts he looks like a selfish, insensitive ass, and you are trying with very little success to connect and nurture a relationship.

But ... make that shift to that he ISN'T an NT (neuro-typical), and you are ... and quite frankly, you are the one that looks selfish and has a lack of empathy and understanding.

All a matter of perspective. I'm just suggesting approaching the situation differently.

I sincerely wish you the best.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

And I am really thinking of my approach and what you are saying may really make the difference. I don't mind that end of the effort as I am looking to find out if communication was all along the key to our problems. If that's true, then even if it is me adjusting my end, communication will happen... then it remains to be seen if that makes the difference (it's more than just that, but it's HUGE part I think)

He does come off as lazy (will say he washes his hands of a person when he does not get the result he wants, even though it's his own actions that are making the result he wants impossible) and appears selfish in that he never seems to see another person's distress or do anything about it if you tell him (cry in front of him and he does nothing, but if the dog wimpers... it is as if it's a child in dire straights).

Again, this is all with me, but also what I see between he and his kids (and what other's see and get from him as well) He is selfish, lazy, stubborn, not too smart etc....

Now, perhaps all that can be different IF communication is approached differently. I know he does feel, and he knows other people feel. He can see all of that it seems, until it is something between he and another person, then it is two separate people, with their own emotions, but no connection to that from him, just observation? That is why it is confusing. Knowing he HAS the emotions, but he only seems to express 2... frustration/anger and happy/having a good time. Nothing else is expressed openly (yet if I think back to the beginning of our relationship he had a way of making me feel loved both physically and emotionaly so I am not entirely sure what happened to that... he seemed to have shut all of that off somehow and cannot turn it back on, yet says he still feels the same things) 

So maybe I am grasping at straws, but how much is it for me to take the time to look? To me it is worth it, and if it works, then it is a gift to us both... if not.. well I go back to feeling the pain and hopefully move on ... maybe if I can quit him (if I have to) I can quit smoking LMAO


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Finally got my letter and it says WAY more than he thinks it does (in a good way) and I plan on making sure he knows that. I am thinking, that since he was looking at what he said to me as he said it, it is more of what he really means to say, and less of a reaction or on the spot answer to what he wants to say.

All good things, at least all hopeful things. FRom what he said, and from what I am learning here, I THINK I can make some serious steps on MY side of communication, which I HOPE will allow and encourage from his side. You have no idea the moonlanding step this is from him (hell much bigger than that LMAO) so MAYBE it's another go around? Not even sure how to explain another go around to people who saw was the last couple tries did to me, or from what it looked like (got damn ugly and had a lot of THANK GOD's when it looked like it ended for sure) HELLLOOOO trenton HAAAAA So much for not eating my words this time HAAAAAAAA

Not even sure I can explain it to myself, and we both have a lot of hesitation here, but that's OK as long as we understand each other on that and don't build expectations before the other is ready right?


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