# I said the unthinkable



## poorchoices

I have been married to my husband for 26 years. I have never withheld sex, but it is something that has definitely been more important to him than to me. We were both virgins when we got married, and I would have sex and enjoy it but I was never the initiator. Our marriage has had some definite trouble, but about 12 years ago he started asking me lots of questions about why I didn't initiate and enjoy sex more. I began crying and all the emotion I had kept inside for years came out. He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. Well, after a while I thought that maybe he had gotten over it. Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex) he almost had a nervous breakdown. How can I ever start to reassure him that I love his **** and I love having sex with him? He is very broken, and sometimes has to just stop during sex because of the negative thoughts that have consumed him. I know this is usually marriage ending, but he and I both don't want to give up.


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## Spicy

Tell him you said that only because you were being defensive and felt inferior to the fake women in porn. Remind him that *every person in porn* makes every normal person feel inadequate if they were to compare That you didn't even remotely mean it, and that you love his wang just the way it is! Then say, "In fact, I want to suck on it right now."


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## Tatsuhiko

As a male, I'd encourage you to rebuild his self-esteem through actions instead of just words. Believing that your wife doesn't consider you to be a man is an awful feeling that will probably never fully go away. You need to double down on your efforts.

Have you ever considered looking at the real reasons that you were never interested in initiating? I'm curious, because I asked my wife the same thing and just got an answer that I consider to be mostly BS.


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## GusPolinski

Regular, spontaneous BJs to completion without any expectation of reciprocation should do the trick.


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## Thor

poorchoices said:


> Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex)


So you meant it when you said it. I don't know how you undo it.


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## Dannip

Thor said:


> So you meant it when you said it. I don't know how you undo it.


She can only undo it if he can un-hear it. 

It's pretty much the worst thing a loving husband can ever hear from his wife.


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## Haiku

I'm waiting to hear the op's follow up replies to see where this goes.


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## Sparta

If I was him I would've left you I mean you need a bigger d**k... don't be surprise If wants to see someone Knew... that's very damaging. Hopefully he does the right (if he decides he wants out the marriage) and leaves you honorably and doesn't cheat on you.


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## JohnA

About par about with harsh comments about breast size and the effect age and childbirth along with stench marks and weight gain.


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## sokillme

poorchoices said:


> I have been married to my husband for 26 years. I have never withheld sex, but it is something that has definitely been more important to him than to me. We were both virgins when we got married, and I would have sex and enjoy it but I was never the initiator. Our marriage has had some definite trouble, but about 12 years ago he started asking me lots of questions about why I didn't initiate and enjoy sex more. I began crying and all the emotion I had kept inside for years came out. He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. Well, after a while I thought that maybe he had gotten over it. Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex) he almost had a nervous breakdown. How can I ever start to reassure him that I love his **** and I love having sex with him? He is very broken, and sometimes has to just stop during sex because of the negative thoughts that have consumed him. I know this is usually marriage ending, but he and I both don't want to give up.


Yeah it would be the same if you were to ask him why he doesn't exercise and he called you a fat unattractive slob. No real coming back from that one. Good job going for the jugular though. You nuked your whole marriage from orbit.


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## Blondilocks

You were speaking out of ignorance. He was your only partner and what with the porn and the quizzing you came up with what you thought was a plausible explanation. You have since learned that it was you and your attitude toward sex that was the real problem. Your brain and your body are now in sync. Of course, it was a major blow to his self-confidence but (and that is a big 'but') you truly did not know any better.


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## chillymorn69

Just explain it to him like you did here. And i agree with Gus get some good knee pads.


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## alexm

If I was him and I heard you say that, my response would be "How would you know?", being each others first and only partners and all.

Still, not a nice thing to say, but I imagine he wont dwell on it too long. After all, you've only had his.

Now if any woman out there who's had more than one sexual partner were to say that? Yikes.


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## Duguesclin

poorchoices said:


> I have been married to my husband for 26 years. I have never withheld sex, but it is something that has definitely been more important to him than to me. We were both virgins when we got married, and I would have sex and enjoy it but I was never the initiator. Our marriage has had some definite trouble, but about 12 years ago he started asking me lots of questions about why I didn't initiate and enjoy sex more. I began crying and all the emotion I had kept inside for years came out. He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. Well, after a while I thought that maybe he had gotten over it. Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex) he almost had a nervous breakdown. How can I ever start to reassure him that I love his **** and I love having sex with him? He is very broken, and sometimes has to just stop during sex because of the negative thoughts that have consumed him. I know this is usually marriage ending, but he and I both don't want to give up.


The issue is not that you told him he has a small ****. The issue is that he believes it.

To save the marriage, he has to come to terms with his insecurities. Becoming a slave to his ego is never going to get him more secure in himself. He has to do that work.

If he really needs to talk about the size of his ****, just tell him what you think. Be honest with him.

My suspicion is that he has other issues. He needs to work on his insecurities. 

He hurt you with the porn. He needs to address this. His issues with his **** are no more important than your issues with the porn.

And if the marriage cannot be saved, it is not because of what you said. It is because of his weaknesses. 

So, be honest, be a good person. Live a healthy life. And do not enable your husband's weakness.


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## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> The issue is not that you told him he has a small ****. The issue is that he believes it.
> 
> D
> 
> To save the marriage, he has to come to terms with his insecurities. Becoming a slave to his ego is never going to get him more secure in himself. He has to do that work.
> 
> If he really needs to talk about the size of his ****, just tell him what you think. Be honest with him.
> 
> My suspicion is that he has other issues. He needs to work on his insecurities.
> 
> A
> 
> He hurt you with the porn. He needs to address this. His issues with his **** are no more important than your issues with the porn.
> 
> RVO
> 
> And if the marriage cannot be saved, it is not because of what you said. It is because of his weaknesses.
> 
> So, be honest, be a good person. Live a healthy life. And do not enable your husband's weakness.


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## leon2100

Saying the unthinkable... heck we all do that all the time. Here's my latest. 
Last week I told my wife "I really enjoy being 75." She replied "I wish I were 35 again." 

And my response (Yes, unthinkable) "I wish you were too."

Just as I got to "you" my brain said stop, but the lips didn't get the message soon enough. But my wife has heard so many unthinkables from me... she just deals with it and goes on!


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## NickTheChemist

Let this be a warning to us all that we have the power to completely destroy the self-worth of our spouse, and that such power should not be used.

If you want it to be better; give attention to his sexual needs and desires. He'll forget all about it if he's getting laid, BJs, hand job in the shower Ect. 5-6 times a week.

If you value him and want to build him up, show it to him physically/sexually and be available.

Also, don't be so hard on yourself over this. We all say hurtful things and none of us here we're in the room and heard the argument. I don't judge you. In fact, I admire That you reached out to the TAM community for advise. I hope that forgiveness washes over your marriage like a river and that you two are more intimate than ever on the other side of this.

Much love
-nick


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## Andy1001

This guy needs to get over himself very quickly the poor over sensitive sap.Is that what men have become,some woman makes a comment about the size of his manhood and years of counselling is needed to restore his self esteem.He should have just told he it wasn't his fault she was so loose down there and that would have been the end of it.


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## Chuck71

And DARVO was his name-o


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## aine

What a load of double standards on this thread!
The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?

Can't you see the double standards here?
Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.

I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.


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## Andy1001

aine said:


> What a load of double standards on this thread!
> The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?
> 
> Can't you see the double standards here?
> Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.
> 
> I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.


This is a sign of things to come with this "new man" mentality.Guys who have no strong male role model in their lives feel they need to act like sensitive little girls.I couldn't believe it last week on tv,during the commercials there was one for foundation cream.One of the people discussing the different shades was a guy.WTF is happening to the American male species,he will soon be extinct.
There are so many answers I would have given this woman with the big ***** but I would get banned for writing them.


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## Blondilocks

FFS, the OP didn't even know what she was saying! She was put on the spot and it popped out of her mouth. The lesson to be learned here is that when you open Pandora's Box (porn in this case)) don't be surprised by your spouse's reaction and don't get your knickers in a twist if you hear something you didn't want to hear.

And, stop positing that she is too big. FFS, some of these answers are simply ridiculous.


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## Andy1001

Blondilocks said:


> FFS, the OP didn't even know what she was saying! She was put on the spot and it popped out of her mouth. The lesson to be learned here is that when you open Pandora's Box (porn in this case)) don't be surprised by your spouse's reaction and don't get your knickers in a twist if you hear something you didn't want to hear.
> 
> And, stop positing that she is too big. FFS, some of these answers are simply ridiculous.


I didn't know her name was Pandora.😁


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## Blondilocks

Andy1001 said:


> I didn't know her name was Pandora.😁


What? You missed that? You are sentenced to rereading this thread for the next twelve hours.:wink2:


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## Thor

Blondilocks said:


> FFS, the OP didn't even know what she was saying! She was put on the spot and it popped out of her mouth. The lesson to be learned here is that when you open Pandora's Box (porn in this case)) don't be surprised by your spouse's reaction and don't get your knickers in a twist if you hear something you didn't want to hear.


I didn't read her post that way. She so far is a drive-by poster with only one post. Hopefully she is real and comes back. Anyhow, I read her post as saying she thought he was too small but after some years she decided it wasn't. So at the time she said she wanted a bigger **** she believed he was too small.



poorchoices said:


> So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. Well, after a while I thought that maybe he had gotten over it. Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex)


Regardless, if he believed she meant it then it was every bit as bad as if she really did mean it. The injury has been there for years now.

Her description of him wanting her to watch porn contains little detail but so far doesn't indicate he wanted her to do anything terrible. Her description was she thought he wanted her to be more sexual, more sexually outgoing, less inhibited, or something similar. Nowhere is it indicated he wanted her to have bigger boobs or be skinnier or anything else indicating he didn't like her body.

If she comes back I'd be interested in knowing what she thinks about the sexual toxic shame she seems to have.


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## Blondilocks

See, that's the point. She didn't know what the problem was so she latched onto the size of the equipment. Having only been exposed to one size, she had no idea if it was too big, too small or just right. She since learned that the problem was in her head. Now, the problem is it's been 12 years and he still can't get over the comment. Or, he's using it as an excuse and milking it for all it's worth.


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## Thor

Idk if he is milking it. Assuming he is not, there is a very deep wound there which has festered for over a decade. She apparently meant it when she said to him that his equipment was too small to satisfy her. Convincing her she did not mean it is futile. Convincing him she no longer thinks it is too small is going to be a nearly impossible mountain to climb. If he is smaller than average (and half of all men are), or even if he is average, he is going to believe his size is problematic.

Their bad sex for all those years is supporting evidence of some dysfunction somewhere. I expect he is blaming himself, and specifically his size, as a significant factor.

Professional guidance with a top notch MC and possibly a sex therapist seems to be needed for this couple. A few bj's and disavowing her previous comments is not going to change his mind.


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## sokillme

aine said:


> What a load of double standards on this thread!
> The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?
> 
> Can't you see the double standards here?
> Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.
> 
> I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.



Nope, he didn't say, you need to look like these women in porn. Not the same at all, actually she was the one who was insecure. His point was looking at it might open her up sexual. Frankly I have read lots of suggestions on this on these boards over the years, from sex therapists no less. One of the suggestions to women who are insecure about their bodies and their sexuality is for them to masturbate. Pretty common advice. Porn is often suggested. Now if you are the type to see porn as cheating I can see how this wouldn't go over. Maybe it was a bad suggestion but not the same on any level. 

Translation ---

Hey why don't you look at porn maybe it will open you up sexually. How dare you now I feel insecure, your **** is too small so there. 

Not the same, though you took it the same way as OP. Point is she lashed out because she felt insecure, but his purpose wasn't to compare her, she was just insecure.


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## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> This is a sign of things to come with this "new man" mentality.Guys who have no strong male role model in their lives feel they need to act like sensitive little girls.I couldn't believe it last week on tv,during the commercials there was one for foundation cream.One of the people discussing the different shades was a guy.WTF is happening to the American male species,he will soon be extinct.
> There are so many answers I would have given this woman with the big ***** but I would get banned for writing them.


Still was a ****ty thing to say. Doesn't matter if he is insecure or not. Apparently she meant it though, maybe she still does but not enough to not have sex at all since he can't function anymore. There are such women as size queens. Heaven forbid you are average and married to one of those.


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## Diana7

Dannip said:


> She can only undo it if he can un-hear it.
> 
> It's pretty much the worst thing a loving husband can ever hear from his wife.


As is a husband wanting his wife be like and act like what women in porn do. Both very hurtful.


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## Diana7

Andy1001 said:


> This guy needs to get over himself very quickly the poor over sensitive sap.Is that what men have become,some woman makes a comment about the size of his manhood and years of counselling is needed to restore his self esteem.He should have just told he it wasn't his fault she was so loose down there and that would have been the end of it.


Yes a big overeaction to get near a nervous breakdown over it.


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## Diana7

aine said:


> What a load of double standards on this thread!
> The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?
> 
> Can't you see the double standards here?
> Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.
> 
> I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.


I so agree with this, many women are devastated when their husbands compare them to women in porn, and compare their sex lives to those acting in these films. So many are hurt by this every day. This lady spoke out of her deep hurt and her husband can't move past it after all this time.


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## Diana7

sokillme said:


> Nope, he didn't say, you need to look like these women in porn. Not the same at all, actually she was the one who was insecure. His point was looking at it might open her up sexual. Frankly I have read lots of suggestions on this on these boards over the years, from sex therapists no less. One of the suggestions to women who are insecure about their bodies and their sexuality is for them to masturbate. Pretty common advice. Porn is often suggested. Now if you are the type to see porn as cheating I can see how this wouldn't go over. Maybe it was a bad suggestion but not the same on any level.
> 
> Translation ---
> 
> Hey why don't you look at porn maybe it will open you up sexually. How dare you now I feel insecure, your **** is too small so there.
> 
> Not the same, though you took it the same way as OP. Point is she lashed out because she felt insecure, but his purpose wasn't to compare her, she was just insecure.


Ah so she is insecure but he isn't. Okay. Yes its just as bad, porn is poison for a marriage.


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## Thor

Diana7 said:


> As is a husband wanting his wife be like and act like what women in porn do. Both very hurtful.


Doesn't that depend on the porn? There is a lot of couple's and women's porn which is what I'd call normal sexual activity. Not the crazy weird or degrading stuff.

Did he want her to do gang-bangs so he could watch her get screwed by all his buddies and film it? Or, did he want her to show some interest and joy in normal sex activities? Maybe she had hangups which he thought she might find interesting if she saw it. Maybe discussions were too difficult and awkward, and if they watched some couples porn it would be a conversation starter.

What makes porn interesting to me is when it is normal activities and when the woman appears to be genuinely having fun. Not the fake sound track moans, not the over inflated breast implants, not barely-legal teens who look like seasoned professionals in what they do. If she shows genuine smiles, genuine arousal, and looks relaxed then it can be fun to watch. Now that is my angle on it, which may be different from other men who want to watch more extreme stuff.

I think it is entirely possible for sexual activities to be portrayed in porn in a healthy way which is respectful to all involved. If a person sees all porn as degrading or cheating, and perhaps that is the case with OP, then it will never be a positive tool within a relationship.

This topic is red meat tossed into the lion's cage. I will wait for OP to return and give us more of her perspective.


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## sokillme

Diana7 said:


> Ah so she is insecure but he isn't. Okay. Yes its just as bad, porn is poison for a marriage.


And yet there are a lot of marriages where people look at it and they don't brake up over it, they actually like it. You can say that but where is the empirical evidence? For some people it is an issue, for others not so much. Now if you are saying it's a sin then yes, but I don't think it always poisons a marriage. 

Now if he told her he didn't want to have sex with her because she was a fat slob then I would say it's the same.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

aine said:


> What a load of double standards on this thread!
> The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?
> 
> Can't you see the double standards here?
> Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.
> 
> I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.


I read a article a while back where it was said that Over age 50 porn was watched more than researcher thought would be. Porn isn't always about big boobs or tight butts.

It's selling the idea that a woman can actually want to have sex and verbalize what they want to happen.
It's the attitude of "I want you to f--- my brains out". The women in porn also grab their f--- buddies hands, head, etc, and guide them where to go & how fast to do it.

IMHO, guys watching the older women in porn aren't lookin for big boobs, it's all in the ATTITUDE.
Back to what has been mentioned before on TAM, "Wanting to be wanted".

Her husband probably could have handled that conversation better, but OP dissin her husband's size ain't kosher either.


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## NoChoice

OP,
There is much discussion as to the who hurt who and who slighted who. The bottom line is that you have hurt his ego and more importantly severely damaged his trust. I once heard a reference as to why Batman was so depressed and despondent after someone tried to remove his mask. The story goes that he was asked "many have tried to unmask you so why did this instance cause you so much pain"? His response was "I have battled many foes and have had many enemies try to unmask me but never before has it been Robin". Only ones we allow to be close can wield so much power over us.

As to the porn discussion, would not she also be seeing very well endowed men with chiseled physiques along with the big breasted women with hour glass figures? Perhaps his intent was merely to "spice things up" and he was not suggesting she be like the porn women any more than he should be like the porn men. And I must interject that the size of a woman's breasts has absolutely no bearing on her ability to perform coitus wheres the man's penis is an indispensable tool in PIV sex and does have a direct effect on the quality of the encounter. Apples to oranges.


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## poorchoices

Just to clarify, my husband wasn't necessarily wanting me to watch porn because he wanted me to "look" like those other women. He wanted to spark more interest in my being sexual. It wasn't weird stuff, it was just one man one woman kind of stuff. He also has generalized anxiety disorder, so it isn't that he is oversensitive. This also isn't something that just happened yesterday, it was 12 years ago. He has been hurt by my still not initiating and still being conservative. So that has confirmed to him that he still thinks I meant what I said.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

poorchoices said:


> Just to clarify, my husband wasn't necessarily wanting me to watch porn because he wanted me to "look" like those other women. He wanted to spark more interest in my being sexual. It wasn't weird stuff, it was just one man one woman kind of stuff. He also has generalized anxiety disorder, so it isn't that he is oversensitive. This also isn't something that just happened yesterday, it was 12 years ago. He has been hurt by my still not initiating and still being conservative. So that has confirmed to him that he still thinks I meant what I said.


May I offer a suggestion, please read some of the articles on this site.

https://forgivenwife.com/new-to-this-blog-start-here/understanding-your-husbands-hurt/

This blogger has written some articles that are just like she has read my mind.

She also has some good articles on improving intimacy in marriage by spicing up your approach.

Intimacy is most men's primary love language. May want to read "The 5 love languages" with your husband and take the quiz and discuss the results with each other.


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## introvert

God, this is why couples should try each other out before marriage. How many marriages are in trouble because of differing sex drives, sex styles?

Of course, poor choice's husband would want her to initiate once in a blue moon. Nobody wants to be the initiator 100% of the time. His suggestion to watch porn together was to help poor choices open up a bit.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

One more note, your husband starting a conversation about intimacy was akin to a boxer in a fight dropping his gloves to his side, showing his vunerable side. Your comment on d size was a sucker punch thrown from someone he trusted. That type of comment has started more bar fights. It's what guys say to each other to grind each other down & get in their face.

What were your bottled up emotions about??


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## introvert

poorchoices said:


> Just to clarify, my husband wasn't necessarily wanting me to watch porn because he wanted me to "look" like those other women. He wanted to spark more interest in my being sexual. It wasn't weird stuff, it was just one man one woman kind of stuff. He also has generalized anxiety disorder, so it isn't that he is oversensitive. This also isn't something that just happened yesterday, it was 12 years ago. He has been hurt by my still not initiating and still being conservative. So that has confirmed to him that he still thinks I meant what I said.


Can you be honest with hubs? Tell him that you acted defensively? That you really didn't mean what you said? And if you don't mind my asking, why is it difficult for you to initiate with him?


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## introvert

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> One more note, your husband starting a conversation about intimacy was akin to a boxer in a fight dropping his gloves to his side, showing his vunerable side. Your comment on d size was a sucker punch thrown from someone he trusted. That type of comment has started more bar fights. It's what guys say to each other to grind each other down & get in their face.
> 
> What were your bottled up emotions about??


I agree, he really made himself vulnerable by asking an honest question of poorchoices. He was completely blindsided by her response.


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## Tatsuhiko

introvert said:


> Can you be honest with hubs? Tell him that you acted defensively? That you really didn't mean what you said?


She should definitely tell him, but it will be very difficult to convince him. He basically asked her "Why don't you see me as an attractive man? I need to feel like you desire me." He foolishly hoped that showing her what other wives do (or at least what he expected they would do) would ignite her interest. Her response? To reiterate, with hostility, that he was undesirable. Hard to walk that one back. If anything, she needs to demonstrate her desire through concrete actions. He's expecting only fakery at this point, so good luck. 



introvert said:


> And if you don't mind my asking, why is it difficult for you to initiate with him?


And _that's_ the million-dollar question. This is where the root of the problem lies.


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## Phil Anders

Diana7 said:


> As is a husband wanting his wife be like and act like what women in porn do. Both very hurtful.


Yeah, god forbid a man would encourage his wife to initiate enthusiastic, uninhibited sex with him. So hurtful!

Know what else is "poison for a marriage"? Frigidity:



poorchoices said:


> He has been hurt by my still not initiating and still being conservative. So that has confirmed to him that he still thinks I meant what I said.


The solution to poor choices is to stop making them. Research how to have more of the kind of sex your H likes (whether it's from porn, Cosmo, or some self-help manual), and initiate frequent activities that will disabuse him of your earlier insulting comments. An explanation will help but words alone will not convince him.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

@poorchoices - To my wife, words of affirmation are her primary language, intimacy is last. So to her, telling me that I was the best thing to happen to her, was the best thing she could do. Attached below is the start of a letter that I left for her on her pillow. I think your husband feels the same way - 

– just as I cannot read your mind, you cannot read mine. Here are my NEEDS for our relationship. These are not the lusts of a dirty old man, but the desires God put in me for my wife. (Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her) All that I have is yours.
When you said that I was the best thing that had happened to you, it is nice to hear. But by DOING the following, means much more than words.
I need you to be proud of your body. I want you to walk around our bedroom with no clothes on. You are beautifully and wonderfully made. Your body is like holding a rose by the stem in the sunshine & slowing turning it. As the light hits it, all the various textures and shades are revealed. I feel I am looking at the same rose when I see you naked. I need you to lay on the bed & spread yourself open so I can look at you. The night you did that on the chair should have shown you how much seeing you affects me.
I need to take showers with you. The way your hair goes into little curly q’s plastered against your face. The sheen of your wet skin. The smell of your skin changes when it is wet. I need to see the soap wash down off your breasts. I need to feel the sensual slipperiness of my soapy hands running across your body. 


The letter was longer, but it addressed years of frustration between us. Establish conversations with your husband. Our marriage was to the point it almost ended. 

Avoid a lot of trouble, discuss openly topics with him. SHOW him you want his D. One other thought that occurred to me was this - You said you were both virgins. Making comments about d size may make him wonder if you either lied about being a virgin OR you have been sampling the sausage on the side.


----------



## sokillme

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> @poorchoices - To my wife, words of affirmation are her primary language, intimacy is last. So to her, telling me that I was the best thing to happen to her, was the best thing she could do. Attached below is the start of a letter that I left for her on her pillow. I think your husband feels the same way -
> 
> – just as I cannot read your mind, you cannot read mine. Here are my NEEDS for our relationship. These are not the lusts of a dirty old man, but the desires God put in me for my wife. (Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her) All that I have is yours.
> When you said that I was the best thing that had happened to you, it is nice to hear. But by DOING the following, means much more than words.
> I need you to be proud of your body. I want you to walk around our bedroom with no clothes on. You are beautifully and wonderfully made. Your body is like holding a rose by the stem in the sunshine & slowing turning it. As the light hits it, all the various textures and shades are revealed. I feel I am looking at the same rose when I see you naked. I need you to lay on the bed & spread yourself open so I can look at you. The night you did that on the chair should have shown you how much seeing you affects me.
> I need to take showers with you. The way your hair goes into little curly q’s plastered against your face. The sheen of your wet skin. The smell of your skin changes when it is wet. I need to see the soap wash down off your breasts. I need to feel the sensual slipperiness of my soapy hands running across your body.
> 
> 
> The letter was longer, but it addressed years of frustration between us. Establish conversations with your husband. Our marriage was to the point it almost ended.
> 
> Avoid a lot of trouble, discuss openly topics with him. SHOW him you want his D. One other thought that occurred to me was this - You said you were both virgins. Making comments about d size may make him wonder if you either lied about being a virgin OR you have been sampling the sausage on the side.


Such a sweet letter. Did it work?


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

sokillme said:


> Such a sweet letter. Did it work?


It wasn't just the letter, best link I have ever found on the internet was this one I sent to my wife. 
https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/

I contribute to this blogger monthly, reading her postings helps me understand my wife better.
It also involved dragging her to a MC and stating we either work on our marriage or I file.

PLUS - getting a lot of feedback on TAM.

Anyone looking for advice needs to take all points posted on TAM and analyze to see which ones will work in their situation. 

What I want to impress to the poster is this - her marriage can be saved. I am probably projecting, but her attitude is kinda "It was no big deal, he should just get over it, it's just sex". I get that from her statement "I don't withhold, but I don't initiate". She probably has no idea what it would mean to her husband if she would invite him into the shower and give him a bj or a hj while showering together. Not just one, but let her husband see by her ongoing actions that she does actually give a damn about his needs in marriage.

As evidenced by the sheer number of posters / articles, it isn't just sex. If poster is Christian, she should read the Song of Songs. God made sex as "the two become one". 

Everyone has different needs in marriage. There are some activities that my wife likes, that drive me crazy. But I do them with a smile on my face, (now), because my wife makes an EFFORT to meet my needs.

Most important thing I did - I found a hour long sermon by Joyce Meyer on forgiveness. I did a lot of praying & am working on dropping the years of hurt & resentment from my wife. I have the attitude of I don't need to carry this burden, whether I stay married or divorce, I'm dumping the hurt & resentment.


----------



## Diana7

Thor said:


> Doesn't that depend on the porn? There is a lot of couple's and women's porn which is what I'd call normal sexual activity. Not the crazy weird or degrading stuff.
> 
> Did he want her to do gang-bangs so he could watch her get screwed by all his buddies and film it? Or, did he want her to show some interest and joy in normal sex activities? Maybe she had hangups which he thought she might find interesting if she saw it. Maybe discussions were too difficult and awkward, and if they watched some couples porn it would be a conversation starter.
> 
> What makes porn interesting to me is when it is normal activities and when the woman appears to be genuinely having fun. Not the fake sound track moans, not the over inflated breast implants, not barely-legal teens who look like seasoned professionals in what they do. If she shows genuine smiles, genuine arousal, and looks relaxed then it can be fun to watch. Now that is my angle on it, which may be different from other men who want to watch more extreme stuff.
> 
> I think it is entirely possible for sexual activities to be portrayed in porn in a healthy way which is respectful to all involved. If a person sees all porn as degrading or cheating, and perhaps that is the case with OP, then it will never be a positive tool within a relationship.
> 
> This topic is red meat tossed into the lion's cage. I will wait for OP to return and give us more of her perspective.


They are acting their enjoyment, it's not real. No it doesn't matter what porn it is, porn is damaging. I would never be with a man who was a porn user. It's so degrading and disrespectful and unloving for many women if their husband use it.


----------



## sokillme

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> It wasn't just the letter, best link I have ever found on the internet was this one I sent to my wife.
> https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/
> 
> I contribute to this blogger monthly, reading her postings helps me understand my wife better.
> It also involved dragging her to a MC and stating we either work on our marriage or I file.
> 
> PLUS - getting a lot of feedback on TAM.
> 
> Anyone looking for advice needs to take all points posted on TAM and analyze to see which ones will work in their situation.
> 
> What I want to impress to the poster is this - her marriage can be saved. I am probably projecting, but her attitude is kinda "It was no big deal, he should just get over it, it's just sex". I get that from her statement "I don't withhold, but I don't initiate". She probably has no idea what it would mean to her husband if she would invite him into the shower and give him a bj or a hj while showering together. Not just one, but let her husband see by her ongoing actions that she does actually give a damn about his needs in marriage.
> 
> As evidenced by the sheer number of posters / articles, it isn't just sex. If poster is Christian, she should read the Song of Songs. God made sex as "the two become one".
> 
> Everyone has different needs in marriage. There are some activities that my wife likes, that drive me crazy. But I do them with a smile on my face, (now), because my wife makes an EFFORT to meet my needs.
> 
> Most important thing I did - I found a hour long sermon by Joyce Meyer on forgiveness. I did a lot of praying & am working on dropping the years of hurt & resentment from my wife. I have the attitude of I don't need to carry this burden, whether I stay married or divorce, I'm dumping the hurt & resentment.


I like that blog too. I found it from here probably from one of your posts.


----------



## Wolfman1968

aine said:


> What a load of double standards on this thread!
> The OP was obviously hurt when he suggested she watch porn with him, so it is ok for her to put up with watching big boobed gorgeous bodies women that get him worked up but god forbid she should do the same to him and say she preferred a bigger ****?
> 
> Can't you see the double standards here?
> Don't you have any idea how demeaning it is for some women that their H wants to fantasize to these fantasy women, indirectly he is telling her, her boobs, body etc is not turning him on the same way.
> 
> I think the OP's H needs a good kick up the side of the head to get over his fragile ego, he can have a fragile ego but she has to suck it up.


False equivalency.

See SoKillMe's post several below yours for the proper response.


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## chillymorn69

Look a penis only smaller!


----------



## samyeagar

Diana7 said:


> They are acting their enjoyment, it's not real. No it doesn't matter what porn it is, porn is damaging. I would never be with a man who was a porn user. It's so degrading and disrespectful and unloving for many women if their husband use it.


Of course that really depends on the woman. Sharing porn as a couple is not all that uncommon, nor is it necessarily damaging if both partners are on the same page. Porn is just another aspect of sexual compatibility. Read through the various threads regarding spicing things up, or where one partner wants more sex, or the other partner doesn't want sex...Porn is a very common suggestion to get things going, and is suggested not just by men, but also by women.

The OP's husband was trying to encourage his wife not just to be more sexual, but to proactively express some desire for him, to show that she thought of him as a sexual being and not only tolerated sex with him by not rejecting him, but actually wanted him, that she had her own physical desires she needed fulfilled by him that were not dependent on his initiation.

It really didn't seem as if the OP was bothered by the porn, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the husband had been researching how to encourage his wife to initiate and open up sexually, and one of the suggestions, quite likely from a woman, was porn, in addition to the bog standard toys and sexy clothes.


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## TheTruthHurts

Diana7 said:


> They are acting their enjoyment, it's not real. No it doesn't matter what porn it is, porn is damaging. I would never be with a man who was a porn user. It's so degrading and disrespectful and unloving for many women if their husband use it.




My sex therapist recommended videos by the Sinclair institute. They show explicit sex with real couples (some are pretty big which is interesting and perhaps encouraged them to "share"). They are moderated and show couples talking about sex and sex acts.

Sometimes the couples are doing things for the first time. Swallowing, crazy positions. And they talk about what it was like. Sometimes it doesn't work or felt awkward.

I suspect you'd call this porn too - it shows explicit sex.

Hegre Art shows men and women with amazing bodies getting erotic massages with very explicit sex acts. It is very real. And very erotic.

There is a BDSM site that shows men and women in bondage with that special mixture of pain, humiliation and pleasure that followers enjoy. Afterward they show them talking and being gentile, telling what the vulnerability was like and how erotic it was.

I've enjoyed many of these because they specifically depict real people enjoying real sex (and other interesting things). It doesn't mean I lust after the women or want to be dominated. But I do enjoy learning about what makes sex enjoyable to different people and I find it erotic to see people (women in my case) really aroused (even when they're inflicting a little wickedness).

"Porn is bad" and "Porn is hurtful" are concepts that are far too broad to be accurate IMO. Your mileage may vary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry I didn't intend to threadjack - OP buy a collection of DVDs from the Sinclair institute, watch a bit, then watch them w hubby. Talk about what you see. Tell him what seems scary and what you might like to try anyway. Let him know this makes you vulnerable to explore things but you want him to have the exciting and varied sex life that these DVDs and real couples talk about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

TheTruthHurts said:


> My sex therapist recommended videos by the Sinclair institute. They show explicit sex with real couples (some are pretty big which is interesting and perhaps encouraged them to "share"). They are moderated and show couples talking about sex and sex acts.
> 
> Sometimes the couples are doing things for the first time. Swallowing, crazy positions. And they talk about what it was like. Sometimes it doesn't work or felt awkward.
> 
> I suspect you'd call this porn too - it shows explicit sex.
> 
> Hegre Art shows men and women with amazing bodies getting erotic massages with very explicit sex acts. It is very real. And very erotic.
> 
> There is a BDSM site that shows men and women in bondage with that special mixture of pain, humiliation and pleasure that followers enjoy. Afterward they show them talking and being gentile, telling what the vulnerability was like and how erotic it was.
> 
> I've enjoyed many of these because they specifically depict real people enjoying real sex (and other interesting things). It doesn't mean I lust after the women or want to be dominated. But I do enjoy learning about what makes sex enjoyable to different people and I find it erotic to see people (women in my case) really aroused (even when they're inflicting a little wickedness).
> 
> "Porn is bad" and "Porn is hurtful" are concepts that are far too broad to be accurate IMO. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes they are all porn under different names. We keep any intimacy and nakedness between each other only. I love and respect him far too much to treat him that way by looking at other men on porn. 
For me a man looking at other women on porn is similar to her saying that he isn't big enough. Both are wrong and both destructive. Both unloving and disrespectful.


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## Phil Anders

Diana7 said:


> They are acting their enjoyment, it's not real. No it doesn't matter what porn it is, porn is damaging. I would never be with a man who was a porn user. It's so degrading and disrespectful and unloving for many women if their husband use it.


Damaging? Every couple is different, and needs to establish their own comfort level & agreements regarding porn use. 

I can appreciate porn being hurtful in some contexts, can understand limiting or eschewing it by mutual agreement. But these broad denouncements verge on redefining male sexuality and fantasies as thought-crime.

I'd never want to be with a woman who was so willfully blind and judgmental when it came to understanding what porn speaks to in men, and the detailed road map & incredible power it offers women like OP, if they could get past the notion that mainstream porn is primarily about unattainably perfect bodies, sexual acrobatics and "degradation of women." 

Porn doesn't create male fantasies: it caters to existing, often unspoken ones. At their core, these mostly involve trust, acceptance, eagerness, adventurousness, self-confidence and playfulness personified in a partner. Those are scarce commodities in OP's marriage and many others, apparently. 

Part of wisdom is recognizing growth opportunities despite contexts that may appear objectionable or uncomfortable. OP has one of those opportunities waving a huge red flag in her face, and it sounds like a lot of you want to help her take refuge in kneejerk ritual condemnation and blameshifting instead of seizing it. 

In my book, a wife who prefers shaming to intimacy & moralistic high dudgeon over a chance to understand something essential about her partner's desire for her is no less disrespectful than a porn-viewing spouse. I spend as little time as possible around people like that, and it is a great relief not to be married to one.


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## Tatsuhiko

I think Diana has some strong religious convictions that she'd like the rest of us to live by. Thanks, but no thanks. What works for one couple does not need to be forced on another. If I recall, Diana was one of the people who had issues with a photographer who took nude photos on a different thread. Time to let it go.


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## turnera

Diana7 said:


> Yes they are all porn under different names. We keep any intimacy and nakedness between each other only. I love and respect him far too much to treat him that way by looking at other men on porn.
> For me a man looking at other women on porn is similar to her saying that he isn't big enough. Both are wrong and both destructive. Both unloving and disrespectful.


meh

When I'm feeling in tune with my H and my libido is high, he and I go to the adult shop and buy a couple new DVDs and go home to watch them together and get in the mood. Or try the new toys we bought. Repressive cultures rarely get it right.


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## Diana7

Tatsuhiko said:


> I think Diana has some strong religious convictions that she'd like the rest of us to live by. Thanks, but no thanks. What works for one couple does not need to be forced on another. If I recall, Diana was one of the people who had issues with a photographer who took nude photos on a different thread. Time to let it go.


Its because I love and respect my husband far too much to treat him that way. I am not going to be unfaithful to him in mind or body. Nor he me. Intimacy is for us alone. I felt the same way before I was a Christian.


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## samyeagar

Messed up quote on mobile


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## samyeagar

Diana7 said:


> Tatsuhiko said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Diana has some strong religious convictions that she'd like the rest of us to live by. Thanks, but no thanks. What works for one couple does not need to be forced on another. If I recall, Diana was one of the people who had issues with a photographer who took nude photos on a different thread. Time to let it go.
> 
> 
> 
> Its because I love and respect my husband far too much to treat him that way. I am not going to be unfaithful to him in mind or body. Nor he me. Intimacy is for us alone. I felt the same way before I was a Christian.
Click to expand...

And that's fine. To each couple their own, but the porn debate is not at issue in this situation.

It was a husband trying to figure out why he felt as if his wife was not attracted to him, and his attemp to spice things up, and a wife who had a knee jerk reaction and said one of the most hurtful things a wife could say.


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## happy as a clam

I wonder if OP will come back and give us some news...


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## turnera

Diana7 said:


> Its because I love and respect my husband far too much to treat him that way. I am not going to be unfaithful to him in mind or body. Nor he me. Intimacy is for us alone. I felt the same way before I was a Christian.


And good for you to have found a partner who shares your beliefs. But the self-righteousness that yours is the 'right' way is not helpful.


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## chillymorn69

Harbor freight has knee pads on sale. Just sayin nothing helps a man forget being called too small better than some frequent head.


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## Tatsuhiko

chillymorn69 said:


> Harbor freight has knee pads on sale. Just sayin nothing helps a man forget being called too small better than some frequent head.


I love Harbor Freight. I wish you hadn't mentioned it because now I'm fantasizing aboutthe angle grinder I wanted to buy. Now you've made at least one man very aroused.


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> Its because I love and respect my husband far too much to treat him that way. I am not going to be unfaithful to him in mind or body. Nor he me. Intimacy is for us alone. I felt the same way before I was a Christian.


All power to you, it is great that you are happy and content.

The issue with many of your posts is the lashings of self righteousness that they are dripping with. It makes me wonder just how happy and content you really are.

I love and respect my husband beyond his belief and I would never be unfaithful to him but part of that is to also be faithful to who he is and who I am. We are both very loyal and sexual beings, we have a fabulous sex life which is part of an amazing relationship. I would never want to cage him in to what would be a very unnatural lifestyle (one where it was forbidden to look at any other human being). 

We watch some porn, hardly any these days but if either of us wants to then we are free to bring it up. Porn is not always damaging and when you suggest such things you are being very dismissive and naieve.


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## WorkingWife

Diana7 said:


> They are acting their enjoyment, it's not real. No it doesn't matter what porn it is, porn is damaging. I would never be with a man who was a porn user. It's so degrading and disrespectful and unloving for many women if their husband use it.


Like you, I can't get past the "they're acting" part of porn, personally.

And I believe porn can be very damaging. Many women feel like you do. And many men use porn to satisfy their sexual cravings, instead of investing time being intimate with their wives so that their wives desire them. And that hurts the marriage. 

But I don't think that means porn is *always *damaging. It would be for you in your marriage and you are smart to know that and not accept it in your life. But some couples enjoy porn together and find it arousing. If they are consenting adults in agreement on the use of porn, I don't think it's damaging.


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## TX-SC

Hmm, that's a tough one. I don't know that there is a realistic female equivalent to being told your penis is too small. But, with that being said, 12 years is a LONG time to keep it bottled up like that. Instead of just giving BJs out every few minutes and buying knee pads, I think the best you could do is enjoy your sex with him. Initiate sex and actually enjoy it. Words of affirmation only go so far.


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## Feeling lost and lonely

I have heard some very hurtful things from my wife regarding our overall relationship and intimacy. I don't think that I can get over that by my self and there is no signs of her wanting to help me so I talked to my doctor that suggested a therapist that is experienced in what I need help with. 
I know therapy is not for everyone and can be to expensive but if possible I think it could be good for him. 

Sent from my A571VL using Tapatalk


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## aine

sokillme said:


> Nope, he didn't say, you need to look like these women in porn. Not the same at all, actually she was the one who was insecure. His point was looking at it might open her up sexual. Frankly I have read lots of suggestions on this on these boards over the years, from sex therapists no less. One of the suggestions to women who are insecure about their bodies and their sexuality is for them to masturbate. Pretty common advice. Porn is often suggested. Now if you are the type to see porn as cheating I can see how this wouldn't go over. Maybe it was a bad suggestion but not the same on any level.
> 
> Translation ---
> 
> Hey why don't you look at porn maybe it will open you up sexually. How dare you now I feel insecure, your **** is too small so there.
> 
> Not the same, though you took it the same way as OP. Point is she lashed out because she felt insecure, but his purpose wasn't to compare her, she was just insecure.


There are many many women who would feel insulted by their H suggesting to look at porn to open up sexually. Maybe if he put in more effort, she would open up sexually. For him to be so sensitive after so many years is ridiculous anyhow, sounds like he has an incredibly fragile ego.

The way a man views porn and the way a woman views porn is imo two very different things. I just wonder how many men would be so pleased to know that their wife was sitting in her study viewing all the great ribbed bodies and big penises of the male porn stars. May not be so enabling for him to match up to those guys. The problem is most porn is geared towards men, so it easy for men to say it is no biggie (no pun intended!).


----------



## Talker67

poorchoices said:


> I have been married to my husband for 26 years. I have never withheld sex, but it is something that has definitely been more important to him than to me. We were both virgins when we got married, and I would have sex and enjoy it but I was never the initiator. Our marriage has had some definite trouble, but about 12 years ago he started asking me lots of questions about why I didn't initiate and enjoy sex more. I began crying and all the emotion I had kept inside for years came out. He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. Well, after a while I thought that maybe he had gotten over it. Several years later though (and during this time I started to be more enthusiastic about sex and opening up with him, and I realized it wasn't **** size but my attitude about sex) he almost had a nervous breakdown. How can I ever start to reassure him that I love his **** and I love having sex with him? He is very broken, and sometimes has to just stop during sex because of the negative thoughts that have consumed him. I know this is usually marriage ending, but he and I both don't want to give up.


Yep, THAT will do it! Tell a guy you have been married to a long time that his **** is inadequate and you need a bigger one. 

It sounds like you are much lower sexed than he is, and find that sex is somewhat a chore. While your husband is the opposite, actually LIVES for sex--thinks about it all day long. His "why do you never initiate sex" was his way of saying "i think you do not love me anymore, why don't you want to have sex?" and you then hit him on the head with a sledge hammer.

So what CAN you do? I do not know. Just faking that you are now interested for a few weeks...he has had decades of that farce, and will see right thru it. *YOU need to actually change*. YOU need to become more interested in sex. 

What exactly, if anything, turns you on? Would buying the husband some sexy clothing or cologne help turn you on? Sex toys? Dangerous places to have sex? Role playing? You wearing really ****ty lingerie? 

Why not try this: For the next month, make it a point to get him to orgasm at least once every day...without skipping a day. It can be PIV sex, it could be you giving him oral sex....but make sure he actually comes. Start getting creative about how as the weeks wear on. At the end of the month, decide if you can keep that sort of thing up with what you have learned, or decide if it is time to end the marriage.


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## Talker67

aine said:


> There are many many women who would feel insulted by their H suggesting to look at porn to open up sexually.


I would guess that him suggesting they watch porn together was his last desperate attempt at getting SOME spark of libido to show in her. And, she quenched that spark right away.


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## 23cm

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry I didn't intend to threadjack - OP buy a collection of DVDs from the Sinclair institute, watch a bit, then watch them w hubby. Talk about what you see. Tell him what seems scary and what you might like to try anyway. Let him know this makes you vulnerable to explore things but you want him to have the exciting and varied sex life that these DVDs and real couples talk about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Hey honey, we could do that. Oops, your c0ck is so small it probably wouldn't work. Sorry...

"Oh, I didn't really mean that.

"Oh, you're too sensitive about that (your small c0ck.)

"Oh, now you're mad at me because you're insecure (because of your small c0ck)

"Oh, geez what do I have to do and how long do I have to wait for you to get over the butt hurt about your small c0ck." 

>


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## TheTruthHurts

23cm said:


> "Hey honey, we could do that. Oops, your c0ck is so small it probably wouldn't work. Sorry...
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh, I didn't really mean that.
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh, you're too sensitive about that (your small c0ck.)
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh, now you're mad at me because you're insecure (because of your small c0ck)
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh, geez what do I have to do and how long do I have to wait for you to get over the butt hurt about your small c0ck."
> 
> 
> 
> >




Hmmmm I'm not sure mocking OP is all that helpful. Plus you didn't need to take a crap on my very valid, and I believe helpful, post


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 23cm

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmm I'm not sure mocking OP is all that helpful. Plus you didn't need to take a crap on my very valid, and I believe helpful, post
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually, I felt a good mocking would be helpful...for her to understand just how her words _and_ attitude hurt her husband. Perhaps if she understands, she can make amends without sounding like the scenario I presented. So far, many of the posters, many of them of the XX chromosome persuasion, have expressed a "tell the teeny weenie to get over it" point of view. 

As for "crapping" on your very valid and helpful post, I didn't mean to besmirch your suggestion that they watch Sinclair Institute videos--could also try "The Guide to Getting it On" as it is less porny than videos of sweaty bodies--not that there's anything wrong with that. I do think the OP's attitude is more the problem.


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## chillymorn69

to all the women sayin he should just get over it already.

does my a$$ look big in these jeans..... I thought that was a tent yea you look great.

hello in there there there...... 

why do you even wear a bra? I didn't know they make a zero cup size.

BBW lol really.

words hurt men also!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

A little lesson in sensitivity from our friends at SNL

Watch Nude Beach From Saturday Night Live - NBC.com


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## Diana7

turnera said:


> And good for you to have found a partner who shares your beliefs. But the self-righteousness that yours is the 'right' way is not helpful.


I have seen far too many marriages suffer through porn use, and two that ended because of it. 
I believe in faithfulness in marriage.


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## aine

I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement

He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****.

Her H wanting her to watch porn and made her FEEL that he wanted HER to be that type of woman. He hurt her with his actions but she was expected to get over it! 
It does not matter whether he did not mean to make her feel like that, she shouldn't have felt like that etc. The point is she DID feel like that. But being obtuse obviously that would never have crossed his mind because he was probably much more interested in the pursuit of what he wanted, in other words 'selfish' and 'self centred' and obtuse!

SO all your arguments are mute because, he (like the usual bull in a china shop) wanted something, didn't give a damn about how she might have felt about it but when it came to him getting some of his own medicine then he suddenly has a fragile ego. 
So please tell me why is there one rule for him and one rule for her? None of those who are so upset about her comments have yet explained this.


----------



## chillymorn69

aine said:


> I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement
> 
> He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****.
> 
> Her H wanting her to watch porn and made her FEEL that he wanted HER to be that type of woman. He hurt her with his actions but she was expected to get over it!
> It does not matter whether he did not mean to make her feel like that, she shouldn't have felt like that etc. The point is she DID feel like that. But being obtuse obviously that would never have crossed his mind because he was probably much more interested in the pursuit of what he wanted, in other words 'selfish' and 'self centred' and obtuse!
> 
> SO all your arguments are mute because, he (like the usual bull in a china shop) wanted something, didn't give a damn about how she might have felt about it but when it came to him getting some of his own medicine then he suddenly has a fragile ego.
> So please tell me why is there one rule for him and one rule for her? None of those who are so upset about her comments have yet explained this.


apples to oranges.


----------



## sokillme

aine said:


> I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement
> 
> He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****.
> 
> Her H wanting her to watch porn and made her FEEL that he wanted HER to be that type of woman. He hurt her with his actions but she was expected to get over it!
> It does not matter whether he did not mean to make her feel like that, she shouldn't have felt like that etc. The point is she DID feel like that. But being obtuse obviously that would never have crossed his mind because he was probably much more interested in the pursuit of what he wanted, in other words 'selfish' and 'self centred' and obtuse!
> 
> SO all your arguments are mute because, he (like the usual bull in a china shop) wanted something, didn't give a damn about how she might have felt about it but when it came to him getting some of his own medicine then he suddenly has a fragile ego.
> So please tell me why is there one rule for him and one rule for her? None of those who are so upset about her comments have yet explained this.


First of all his motives were not self centered he was trying to help them both, maybe he misjudged how she would react but as you have seen on here there are plenty of women who are totally cool with looking at porn with their husbands, they even like it. Even OP says she was wrong and insecure. At worst he misjudged her reaction and again which looking at the wide spectrum on just this small sample size, it seems like an honest mistake to me. Actually whenever this topic comes up it always seems to be a trigger to some women. Some women are totally cool with it. This would be similar to men's size. The difference here is only one person in the relationship actually reinforced the insecurity. Well really they went a little further then reinforcing, they actually confirmed it. 

Besides that, everyone is entitled to have needs and wants in a relationship, having a healthy sex life is not a selfish or self-centered desire in the sense of there is something innately wrong with that. This is pretty much the deal that everyone signs up for, not unreasonable at all actually. 

Next you seem to be saying she is justified in her reaction. Lashing out because you FEEL a certain way is what children do. It's ****ty behavior and certainly not a healthy way to deal with a problem, even if it makes you FEEL insecure. Her response shows that she is the one with the fragile ego. Only YOU are characterizing the discussion as him lashing out. OP doesn't characterize it that way. I wonder why you insist on characterizing it this way when the mans own wife to whom he was speaking to doesn't. 

You need to look at the motivations, as OP states his motivation was to try to help her "get ideas" it was about being sexual not looking a certain way, you can argue with his actions but not his motivation. Hers was just to hurt him. There in lies the difference. Now I have explained it for you.


----------



## BetrayedDad

poorchoices said:


> he almost had a nervous breakdown. How can I ever start to reassure him that I love his **** and I love having sex with him? He is very broken, and sometimes has to just stop during sex because of the negative thoughts that have consumed him. I know this is usually marriage ending, but he and I both don't want to give up.


For him to have taken it THIS hard it must be true. Brutal honesty has its limits.

I'd legit chuckle if a woman told me that cause every stat I've read tells me otherwise.

He's into porn so you may have to play out that fantasy (give him porn star sex) for a while.

Probably not what you wanted to hear but clearly he desperately needs a confidence boost.

I'd refrain from ANY comments, even positive about his junk. He's not going to believe you anyway.


----------



## 23cm

Quoting Aine: 

I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement

He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****. 

Quoting Sokillme: 

You need to look at the motivations, as OP states (her husband's) motivation was to try to help her "get ideas" it was about being sexual not looking a certain way, you can argue with his actions but not his motivation. Hers was just to hurt him. There in lies the difference. Now I have explained it for you.

Possible Reason Why Explanation Won't Be Accepted:


----------



## Wazza

It's really important we establish who is to blame in the exchange. That way we know who to hold responsible when the marriage ends....

Poor choices, you have said you are being more enthusiastic about sex. The only thing I can suggest is to hope he picks up on that with time. I'm assuming you have honestly said to him what you have said here.

Some guys appear to be very driven by the physicality of sex, but for a lot of us it's an emotional connection. For such a guy, rightly or wrongly, you've basically told him that connection is not there.


----------



## Blondilocks

A therapist is most likely their best hope at this point.

Just an aside, you guys do realize that the phrase "the family jewels" is just a phrase, right?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

aine said:


> I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement
> 
> He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****.
> 
> Her H wanting her to watch porn and made her FEEL that he wanted HER to be that type of woman. He hurt her with his actions but she was expected to get over it!
> It does not matter whether he did not mean to make her feel like that, she shouldn't have felt like that etc. The point is she DID feel like that. But being obtuse obviously that would never have crossed his mind because he was probably much more interested in the pursuit of what he wanted, in other words 'selfish' and 'self centred' and obtuse!
> 
> SO all your arguments are mute because, he (like the usual bull in a china shop) wanted something, didn't give a damn about how she might have felt about it but when it came to him getting some of his own medicine then he suddenly has a fragile ego.
> So please tell me why is there one rule for him and one rule for her? None of those who are so upset about her comments have yet explained this.


Based on the very title of this thread, I think it's clear even the OP herself understands the significant difference between the transgressions here.


----------



## Diana7

aine said:


> I think I am in an alternative universe, how come so many of the XY chromosone variety are missing the OP's statement
> 
> He had wanted me to watch porn with him a couple of years earlier to get ideas I guess, but it made me feel like he wanted me to be that type of woman. So I retaliated and told him I needed a bigger ****.
> 
> Her H wanting her to watch porn and made her FEEL that he wanted HER to be that type of woman. He hurt her with his actions but she was expected to get over it!
> It does not matter whether he did not mean to make her feel like that, she shouldn't have felt like that etc. The point is she DID feel like that. But being obtuse obviously that would never have crossed his mind because he was probably much more interested in the pursuit of what he wanted, in other words 'selfish' and 'self centred' and obtuse!
> 
> SO all your arguments are mute because, he (like the usual bull in a china shop) wanted something, didn't give a damn about how she might have felt about it but when it came to him getting some of his own medicine then he suddenly has a fragile ego.
> So please tell me why is there one rule for him and one rule for her? None of those who are so upset about her comments have yet explained this.


I agree. It's amazing how many men don't seem to have any idea of the deep hurt that their use of porn causes, and how casually they treat it. Yet when she, out of her hurt, says one thing, he still can't cope with it years later. Some women have to deal with their husband's porn use for many years and apparently it's ok because 'all men do it.' No they don't actually, many good and moral men still go against the flow. 
If my husband said to me what hers did, he would quickly be shown the door. 
How disrespectful. :frown2:


----------



## chillymorn69

Blondilocks said:


> A therapist is most likely their best hope at this point.
> 
> Just an aside, you guys do realize that the phrase "the family jewels" is just a phrase, right?


not really I consider mine jewels just sayin.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Diana7 said:


> I agree. It's amazing how many men don't seem to have any idea of the deep hurt that their use of porn causes, and how casually they treat it. Yet when she, out of her hurt, says one thing, he still can't cope with it years later. Some women have to deal with their husband's porn use for many years and apparently it's ok because 'all men do it.' No they don't actually, many good and moral men still go against the flow.
> If my husband said to me what hers did, he would quickly be shown the door.
> How disrespectful. :frown2:


While I understand, and even empathize with your post, there remains a couple significant differences. 

1. He suggested they do it together--he did not go behind her back. It is clear he never intended to use it as a substitute for her. 

2. His intent, misguided though it may have been, wasn't meant to harm. Hers clearly was an intentional attempt to emotionally injure. 

Many men don't look at porn because the women are hotter, prettier, have bigger racks, or because they seek any other physical attributes their partners lack. They look because, they either aren't getting any (not the case here) or they aren't getting what they want (enthusiasm or some particular sexual act). They are not seeking the things their partners can't change (physical limitation), they are seeking things their partners can change (the level of interest they bring into the act, or what specifically they will do, sexually). Yet many women get hurt thinking they can't compete with the porn stars or live up to their partner's expectations, when that's not the issue at all. In fact, they can greatly exceed the celluloid experience just by being there for their partner and taking an active interest. 

In this case both behaved badly, and it started with hubby's lack of understanding of his wife, and his poor choice of means to communicate his desires.. But while one was misguided at worst, the other was overtly malicious. Big difference. One clearly took the transgression wrong while the other took it exactly as it was intended.

I say all this without endorsing, or even excusing porn. However, it is important to understand motivations and intent.


----------



## Phil Anders

You're wasting your time, RMY.


----------



## WorkingWife

TX-SC said:


> Hmm, that's a tough one. I don't know that there is a realistic female equivalent to being told your penis is too small. But, with that being said, 12 years is a LONG time to keep it bottled up like that. Instead of just giving BJs out every few minutes and buying knee pads, I think the best you could do is enjoy your sex with him. Initiate sex and actually enjoy it. Words of affirmation only go so far.


Well, I'm not a guy, but as a small busted woman I can tell you it sucks to spend your life hearing your breasts are too small.


----------



## WorkingWife

chillymorn69 said:


> to all the women sayin he should just get over it already.
> 
> does my a$$ look big in these jeans..... I thought that was a tent yea you look great.
> 
> hello in there there there......
> 
> why do you even wear a bra? I didn't know they make a zero cup size.
> 
> BBW lol really.
> 
> words hurt men also!


OK, Sure, but some of us women hear that crap our whole lives. It doesn't knock us off our game for twelve years.

You guys act like she said she wanted to blow up a school yard full of children.

He kept asking and pushing her about not wanting more sex. YES, she could have handled it better. As could have he. But they were both 12 years younger and inexperienced and frustrated. What I want to know is if she and/or he have figured out the real reason she didn't want more sex with him - and done anything about it. Or is she now just having more sex in an attempt to "have a good attitude."


----------



## Wazza

WorkingWife said:


> OK, Sure, but some of us women hear that crap our whole lives. It doesn't knock us off our game for twelve years.
> 
> You guys act like she said she wanted to blow up a school yard full of children.
> 
> He kept asking and pushing her about not wanting more sex. YES, she could have handled it better. As could have he. But they were both 12 years younger and inexperienced and frustrated. What I want to know is if she and/or he have figured out the real reason she didn't want more sex with him - and done anything about it. Or is she now just having more sex in an attempt to "have a good attitude."


I don't know if it was the phrase alone. Maybe the phrase reinforced years of sexual rejection and made it seem hopeless. I wouldn't compare it to "Yes your ass looks big in those jeans". I'd compare it to a guy saying "I don't love you, and never will."

I am not at all surprised that some women regard it as a major overreaction on the guy's part. But I also think OP is right that it could end up wiping out the marriage if they can't get past it. OP has already said she gets that. The hard bit is knowing how to turn around.


----------



## Nucking Futs

WorkingWife said:


> Well, I'm not a guy, but as a small busted woman I can tell you it sucks to spend your life hearing your breasts are too small.


Man: You should go down to the elections department and join the itty bitty titty party.
Woman eventually thinks: I've always hated my tits, I'm going to spend a few grand on implants and this jackass will never see them!

Man: Have you considered doing some squats to give your ass a little shape?
Woman eventually thinks: I guess I need to get in the gym and correct this problem!

Man: It's not the jeans that make your ass look fat, it's the fat ass!
Woman eventually thinks: I guess I need to go on a diet.

Woman: You have a small penis.
Man thinks: I'll never sexually satisfy her, she wants more than I can deliver, we'll never have a good sex life, she'll eventually cheat on me and/or leave me and there's nothing I can do about it.

I don't know why I'm bothering. This is an issue like paternity fraud, some women will never get it.


----------



## Blondilocks

I'm going to blame this on mens' fashions.

If men's pants were designed to allow any and all observers the opportunity to assess the size of the penis, then men would become used to having their privates on display and not be so sensitive. Much like women who venture forth daily knowing that some guy(s) will be secretly guessing her cup size.

Instead, men get the privilege of having their tailor ask "How do you dress?". The first time I heard a tailor ask my husband, I thought - 'what business is it of his if husband puts his socks on first or last'.


----------



## alexm

WorkingWife said:


> Well, I'm not a guy, but as a small busted woman I can tell you it sucks to spend your life hearing your breasts are too small.


Not to dismiss this out of hand (and I really don't mean to), the difference between boob size and penis size is that many men do like or even prefer small boobs.

Not to mention that breast size has zero impact on sex.

I imagine there are some women out there who prefer a smaller penis, but that's likely because of their own physical limitations. If a woman exists out there who is genuinely turned on by a smaller penis, that would be a minor miracle, I think.

From anything I've ever heard or read or seen anywhere, most women simply aren't "in to" penises to begin with. But for those who do actually get some sexual excitement out of seeing or touching one, then it matters. Even if it's 'too big', it's still a visually stimulating and sexually exciting thing to look at, touch, etc.

I think the same is true about breasts, in that not all men are "in to" them. The difference, though, is that of the men who love boobs, it's not all about the big ones. Some men like big boobs, some men like small boobs, many men like ALL boobs. I don't think you can say the same about small penises.


----------



## 23cm

I believe this says it all.


----------



## TX-SC

WorkingWife said:


> Well, I'm not a guy, but as a small busted woman I can tell you it sucks to spend your life hearing your breasts are too small.


Breast enhancement is easily attainable. Penis enlargement is not. There are lots of guys out there into small breasted women. I'm not sure the same can be said for men with small packages?


----------



## Married but Happy

I could probably dismiss it if I was told this by some woman, as I've had other partners and know they've been pleased. This guy was a virgin when he married, and doesn't have the confidence from having good experiences with other women. It would be doubly damaging if he's average or less to begin with, and knows it. But this is his wife saying this, not just some woman - and I'd have difficulty dismissing it too, if my wife said this to me. My response would be, that if she needs a larger penis, she's free to look for one as soon as I file for divorce and she's moved out. I mean, if she knows what she needs, and I'm not it (and this can't be changed, like some things), then the relationship has no future.

Anyway, I don't know of anything specific to fix this for her and him, other than time, and making a huge effort to initiate and show him that she desires him.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> OK, Sure, but some of us women hear that crap our whole lives. It doesn't knock us off our game for twelve years.
> 
> You guys act like she said she wanted to blow up a school yard full of children.
> 
> He kept asking and pushing her about not wanting more sex. YES, she could have handled it better. As could have he. But they were both 12 years younger and inexperienced and frustrated. What I want to know is if she and/or he have figured out the real reason she didn't want more sex with him - and done anything about it. Or is she now just having more sex in an attempt to "have a good attitude."


Having small breast is basically a cosmetic thing, besides arousal, for the most part is not a requirement for the act itself. The size issue is can be much more serious as it really is primary contributing factor in the act. Can't do the job if you don't have the tool to do the job with. 

The best way to describe it is if a Man tells his wife he is not attracted to her. This after a history of little or no sex. The history and his words are probably going to reinforce what her fears were. He can come back latter and tell her he just said that but she is probably never going to believe him. It's not just the words it's the words with the history. I don't really think you can get over it. The other issue is unlike other things there is really no fix for this. Maybe that is why he has stayed. If he is clinically small he may know he has no hope. 

Honestly due to the fact that the poster has not returned and the controversial nature of the post I suspect this was posted to push peoples buttons. But the discussion is good just the same. This kind of thing does happen.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Wazza and Nucking Futs have got it right. Because of her apparent lack of interest in him, he came to her with the suspicion that he wasn't man enough for her and that he could not please her (this is very important to men). He worried she might not be attracted to him as a man, and felt it was probable that he wasn't really her "Prince Charming." Some guy she hadn't ever met must have been. He'd been afraid to approach her about it for some time. But that day he showed his vulnerability, attempting a last-ditch effort, asking if she could ever be attracted to him. She confirmed that it was not possible. That's the thing he's having trouble with. The woman he considered his soul mate does not consider him to be a man. Quite a bit different than "Your boobs are small." 

In any case, it doesn't appear that OP cares enough to hear this.


----------



## Buddy400

WorkingWife said:


> Well, I'm not a guy, but as a small busted woman I can tell you it sucks to spend your life hearing your breasts are too small.


True. But there is the possibility of breast enhancement surgery.

There's also the fact that a lot of men are known to like small breasts.

Small breasts usually don't affect a woman's ability to sexually satisfy her partner. 

While lots of women will say that they don't like penises that are too large and plenty will say that size doesn't matter, one doesn't hear much from women who *prefer* small penises. 

There's also the fact that women don't have to wait until intimacy begins to reveal their small breasts for the first time.


----------



## alexm

sokillme said:


> Having small breast is basically a cosmetic thing, besides arousal, for the most part is not a requirement for the act itself. The size issue is can be much more serious as it really is primary contributing factor in the act. Can't do the job if you don't have the tool to do the job with.


To play devil's advocate a little bit - there are very few men who do not have the size to "do the job" for pretty much any woman out there.

Size is relative, and it's really a preference in almost all cases - very rarely is it case of "that will not work even one tiny bit".

There are men out there with very small penises, yes. There are also women out there with very large vaginas. But far fewer of each than most of us would think. All in all, a very high percentage of men and women will be at least marginally compatible for satisfying sex.

Ask a 1000 women what their size/girth/shape/look perferences are, and you'll get 900 different responses amongst the different combinations. 5" long and as thick as your arm. 8" long with a tapered head. 6.5" long with a mushroom-shaped head. Curves up, straight as an arrow, curves to the left or right, veiny, not veiny, circumsized, uncircumsized. The list is endless.

The only thing I can think of that (almost) all women would agree on in regards to their partners penis is that it would be a snug fit. That doesn't mean you have to be huge, it just means that a tighter fit is preferable. And obviously the same is true for men. Just like Goldilocks - 'not too big, not too small, just right'.

There's no such thing as a "perfect penis" - only to the person who has their own preferences. And a lot of those preferences are based on their own physiology. A short vagina is not going to want a long penis. A tight vagina is not going to want a thick one, etc.

But obviously when your partner tells you you're too "this" or too "that", it's difficult to hear and even more difficult to get over.


----------



## alexm

Buddy400 said:


> There's also the fact that women don't have to wait until intimacy begins to reveal their small breasts for the first time.


That's the thing that's kills me. Two women that I've been with in one way or another were reluctant to take off their tops for fear of showing their small breasts. One never did, in all the times we fooled around or had sex. Just flat our refused. The other did reluctantly, and was obviously somewhat uncomfortable about it, despite me paying plenty of attention to them. (maybe that was why... lol)

It's like "yeah, I already know you have smaller boobs, duh. This isn't a surprise! The fact that I want to see them, and play with them and touch them doesn't make you feel good?"

Reminds me of the first time I ever saw my ex-wife's breasts. I knew they were on the bigger side, but she did a good job of hiding them (mid-90's, flannel shirts were in, lol!) The first time her shirt came off, I was thinking "Oh my god". Then the bra came off and I was like "OH. MY. GOD." Now, she was barely 5' tall and petite, but she had, if I recall correctly, 38DDD breasts. I literally didn't know what to do with them.

Anyway, as far as women are concerned, they certainly DO have a similar thought going through their heads when we see their vaginas for the first time. A vagina is built just as differently as any penis is. Not to mention they're all probably hoping they don't smell down there, too.


----------



## Phil Anders

If she mistook the "let's watch some porn together" for an invidious physical comparison, it was non-specific. 

He wanted enthusiastic sex with her. He didn't get secretly hung up on a particular actress with a wildly different body type. He didn't complain about her tiny boobs or her flat ass or her horrifyingly unsightly hoo-hah. 

Specific insults like that cut far deeper, especially if it's something you can do nothing about. And it seems she knows jolly well what he meant _now_, isn't wracked with body insecurity, and yet she's still hanging back on initiating even though she wants to convince him how much she loves sex and his ****.


----------



## leon2100

I just thought of an unthinkable thing I said to my wife one time. We're at a very fine restaurant. Across the room sat a young couple. They were reaching across the table holding hands. Once when she got up to go to the lady's room they embraced. When she came back they embraced again. So here's our conversation:
Me: they aren't married
Wife: I agree
Me: He's going to get laid to night!
Wife : He wishes!
Now for the unthinkable:
Me: well, he ought to. He paid for it!!!

Well, guess who didn't laid that night!!


----------



## WorkingWife

Buddy400 said:


> True. But there is the possibility of breast enhancement surgery.


So while it's true a woman can get a boob job, it means invasive surgery to transform her body to something that is not "normal" in order for her to be considered sexy. (In her mind.) I did some research and it turns out I'm actually NOT "small" I'm actually average for a woman who is not overweight (34-b) but I have felt very small chested all my life because of people's comments (mostly men).



Buddy400 said:


> There's also the fact that a lot of men are known to like small breasts.


Where are these men? I've only ever read about them... LOL.



Buddy400 said:


> Small breasts usually don't affect a woman's ability to sexually satisfy her partner.


Don't they? If a guy loves everything about his partner but wishes her breasts were bigger how can she not feel that he'd be more sexually satisfied with a woman with larger breasts? Sure, she can bring him to orgasm - but a guy with a small penis can bring a girl to orgasm too.



Buddy400 said:


> While lots of women will say that they don't like penises that are too large and plenty will say that size doesn't matter, one doesn't hear much from women who *prefer* small penises.


I do! I have always preferred small penises. I have even posted about that on here before so I'm not just saying it now. But I am probably in the minority.





Buddy400 said:


> There's also the fact that women don't have to wait until intimacy begins to reveal their small breasts for the first time.


That's true! Unless she's wearing falsies the guy knows what he's getting and she knows he's obviously happy enough. Although I know women who married guys who later badgered them into getting boob jobs they did not want.


----------



## WorkingWife

TX-SC said:


> Breast enhancement is easily attainable. Penis enlargement is not. There are lots of guys out there into small breasted women. I'm not sure the same can be said for men with small packages?


Again - Where are all these men who like small breasts????!!!!! 

It's true about the enhancement and since I always have that option, maybe I can't really put myself in the guy's shoes. But I used to feel very insecure/inadequate about my breasts size. (I've now learned it's actually average for a woman who is not overweight, so I've decided to be happy with them. At least they won't cause me back problems as I age. ;-)


----------



## WorkingWife

alexm said:


> I imagine there are some women out there who prefer a smaller penis, but that's likely because of their own physical limitations. If a woman exists out there who is genuinely turned on by a smaller penis, that would be a minor miracle, I think.


Well that's true. I prefer smaller but not because "oh, a small penis! That's so hot!!!!" haha but because large ones hurt me and I want my partner to be able to just pound the hell out of me without damaging internal organs or removing a layer of skin.


----------



## WorkingWife

Nucking Futs said:


> Man: You should go down to the elections department and join the itty bitty titty party.
> Woman eventually thinks: I've always hated my tits, I'm going to spend a few grand on implants and this jackass will never see them!
> 
> Man: Have you considered doing some squats to give your ass a little shape?
> Woman eventually thinks: I guess I need to get in the gym and correct this problem!
> 
> Man: It's not the jeans that make your ass look fat, it's the fat ass!
> Woman eventually thinks: I guess I need to go on a diet.
> 
> Woman: You have a small penis.
> Man thinks: I'll never sexually satisfy her, she wants more than I can deliver, we'll never have a good sex life, she'll eventually cheat on me and/or leave me and there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> *I don't know why I'm bothering. This is an issue like paternity fraud, some women will never get it.*


Maybe not, but you did make me laugh with your top three examples. I have never considered a boob job though. A face lift - absolutely some day - but to me, there's something about having to have something implanted into your body to be considered sexy that yeah, it would make me hate the guy who pushed for that. Not sure why but there's something very off putting to me about that. But maybe I'm actually just not *that *small. Now that I think about it, every woman I can think of who was smaller than me has gotten a boob job. (And the ones who were naturally really large have gotten breast reductions!)

HAHA I just remembered this conversation I had with my H once:

Me: Do you think it's funny that I would get a face lift but not a boob job?"
H: "No, I think it's sad."


----------



## WorkingWife

Phil Anders said:


> If she mistook the "let's watch some porn together" for an invidious physical comparison, it was non-specific.
> 
> He wanted enthusiastic sex with her. He didn't get secretly hung up on a particular actress with a wildly different body type. He didn't complain about her tiny boobs or her flat ass or her horrifyingly unsightly hoo-hah.
> 
> Specific insults like that cut far deeper, especially if it's something you can do nothing about. And it seems she knows jolly well what he meant _now_, isn't wracked with body insecurity, and yet she's still hanging back on initiating even though she wants to convince him how much she loves sex and his ****.


Good post/points - except while she wants to convince him that she loves sex and his ****, I got the impression she's still trying to convince herself - that she loves sex, at least - she's trying to improve her own attitude. If she actually loved sex with him she would not need to work on her attitude. Since she hasn't come back though I guess we won't know.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

WorkingWife said:


> That's true! Unless she's wearing falsies the guy knows what he's getting and she knows he's obviously happy enough. Although I know women who married guys who later badgered them into getting boob jobs they did not want.


I will never understand this. How can anybody who loves their partner want her to go under the knife purely for his own selfish desires? This is narcissistic and disrespectful and completely lacking in empathy or love. Making it even more insane is that it's all superficial and in no way real. Personally, I much prefer a small handful of natural flesh than a big handful of artificial inorganic material shoved under the surface.

I don't get it on either level-either the lack of respect for her or the nature of his own desire. Either one alone would make me want no part of it, both together make it completely incomprehensible to me. 

I once dated a 38D and that had its charms, but when I fell for my modestly endowed wife, I fell for the whole package. Even at age 53, and after 3 rounds of breastfeeding, they remain the only perfect breasts in the world--because they are the only breasts attached to her.


----------



## TX-SC

WorkingWife said:


> Again - Where are all these men who like small breasts????!!!!!
> 
> It's true about the enhancement and since I always have that option, maybe I can't really put myself in the guy's shoes. But I used to feel very insecure/inadequate about my breasts size. (I've now learned it's actually average for a woman who is not overweight, so I've decided to be happy with them. At least they won't cause me back problems as I age. ;-)


I think there are plenty of men who just aren't that fascinated with breasts. I like nipples, but breasts aren't a huge thing for me (excuse the pun). The reality is that although breast play can enhance the experience for both men and women, very few people need it to orgasm and enjoy sex. 

There are plenty of women who view men with small penises as being inadequate, regardless of how skilled the guy may be with hands or tongue. Yes, there are some who don't care, but it's much more rare. My wife is an exception. Even though I'm only a little over average, she still says it's too big and she would be very content with a smaller one. I have tried a larger toy with her and she HATED it. She made me put it away for good. 

Nothing can be done about a small penis and it is a source of continued shame for those men who have one, unless they happen to have a wife or GF/BF that doesn't care. Breasts can be enlarged with no stigma. 

On the rare occasions that I watch porn, I have never searched for large breasts or anything about breasts at all.


----------



## WorkingWife

TX-SC said:


> I think there are plenty of men who just aren't that fascinated with breasts. I like nipples, but breasts aren't a huge thing for me (excuse the pun). The reality is that although breast play can enhance the experience for both men and women, very few people need it to orgasm and enjoy sex.
> 
> There are plenty of women who view men with small penises as being inadequate, regardless of how skilled the guy may be with hands or tongue. Yes, there are some who don't care, but it's much more rare. My wife is an exception. Even though I'm only a little over average, she still says it's too big and she would be very content with a smaller one. I have tried a larger toy with her and she HATED it. She made me put it away for good.
> 
> Nothing can be done about a small penis and it is a source of continued shame for those men who have one, unless they happen to have a wife or GF/BF that doesn't care. Breasts can be enlarged with no stigma.
> 
> On the rare occasions that I watch porn, I have never searched for large breasts or anything about breasts at all.


Interesting about your non-interest in breasts. Even I am fascinated by them when I see them on TV, and I am a straight female. I am definitely in your wife's camp re penis size. I once had a really good male friend when I was young and there might have been a bit of a spark there between us but he'd mentioned how big he was in conversation once - and I never gave him a second thought. I also dated a guy once who I think was pretty small (3 inches maybe?). I don't remember it ever being an issue to me, but while I love a good banging like nothing else on earth, I never have orgasms form PIV anyhow.


----------



## alexm

WorkingWife said:


> Well that's true. I prefer smaller but not because "oh, a small penis! That's so hot!!!!" haha but because large ones hurt me and I want my partner to be able to just pound the hell out of me without damaging internal organs or removing a layer of skin.


Exactly, it's physical and for your enjoyment and has nothing to do with esthetics.

As me and a couple of others have said, boobs are purely esthetic in regards to sex. And there most definitely are men (and women) who like small(er) boobs.

And as you said yourself, 34b isn't small. HOWEVER, being a man and owning a penis, I do understand that one doesn't strive to be 'average' or 'big enough'


----------



## alexm

WorkingWife said:


> Interesting about your non-interest in breasts. Even I am fascinated by them when I see them on TV, and I am a straight female. I am definitely in your wife's camp re penis size. I once had a really good male friend when I was young and there might have been a bit of a spark there between us but he'd mentioned how big he was in conversation once - and I never gave him a second thought. I also dated a guy once who I think was pretty small (3 inches maybe?). I don't remember it ever being an issue to me, but while I love a good banging like nothing else on earth, I never have orgasms form PIV anyhow.


3 inches is small, but it's clear that it can work for some women.

This may be too personal, but I am curious - if you've ever come across a large penis before, was it not inherently more, I don't know, interesting? Exciting? Esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?

I ask this, because I've understood that, although a really large penis may not be ideal (or even work) for PIV, it may be more... exciting. Surely it's got a novelty aspect to it, especially if it's too big for PIV.


----------



## Blondilocks

alexm said:


> 3 inches is small, but it's clear that it can work for some women.
> 
> This may be too personal, but I am curious - if you've ever come across a large penis before, was it not inherently more, I don't know, interesting? Exciting? Esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?
> 
> I ask this, because I've understood that, although a really large penis may not be ideal (or even work) for PIV, it may be more... exciting. *Surely it's got a novelty aspect to it,* especially if it's too big for PIV.




Like in a freak-show, circus kind of way? 

Did you find your ex's DDDs more interesting, exciting, esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?


----------



## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> WorkingWife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting about your non-interest in breasts. Even I am fascinated by them when I see them on TV, and I am a straight female. I am definitely in your wife's camp re penis size. I once had a really good male friend when I was young and there might have been a bit of a spark there between us but he'd mentioned how big he was in conversation once - and I never gave him a second thought. I also dated a guy once who I think was pretty small (3 inches maybe?). I don't remember it ever being an issue to me, but while I love a good banging like nothing else on earth, I never have orgasms form PIV anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 inches is small, but it's clear that it can work for some women.
> 
> This may be too personal, but I am curious - if you've ever come across a large penis before, was it not inherently more, I don't know, interesting? Exciting? Esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?
> 
> I ask this, because I've understood that, although a really large penis may not be ideal (or even work) for PIV, it may be more... exciting. Surely it's got a novelty aspect to it, especially if it's too big for PIV.
Click to expand...

Yes I have come across an anaconda before and yes it was beautiful, fun, sexy and fascinating. It was too big for me for comfortable PIV but I knew it was something that would get better the more we had sex. We didn't stay together long enough for that to happen but I was totally down for trying to get the whole thing inside of me, how ever many times it took.

This experience never made other men seem "less than" anaconda guy. A great lover with a great body and average sized penis is and was just as fun and wonderful for me. 

But the big one was simply beautiful to behold and handle and I was glad for the experience even though it didn't last long.


----------



## Dannip

My B sized W asked my opinion if she should get a boob job. I said in an I don't care kind of way, "if you want". Seems she did not like that answer. Of course I would talk her out of it if she was serious.

I've dated larger and smaller than her. I prefer larger, but I very very very much prefer the woman over that one immature choice. 

I would never insult her over the size of her boobs or any other physical feature. PARTICULARLY in the heat of any argument/disagreement we may have. We argue with respect.

From what I can tell, the vast majority of ladies prefer average sized guys. And the average guy is average anyway.

OP has made a childish mistake she can never fully recover from. That's how some guys are. A bit sensitive to that. 

If she makes a similar mistake again, it will reinforce her earlier inference and completely shut him down.

I've been thinking about how to fix this from her H's standpoint. Don't think it can be fixed. OP needs to start fantasizing about her H. I mean wow fantasies. Him and Her. Total commitment.
OP I hope you can turn these fantasies into dreams you can share with him when you wake.

Sext your H. Start gently, and seduce him daily. Find some sexy sheer little nothing's to wear just for him. Let him know how you like how he does oral/anything. Compliment his performance. Don't be obvious. Be truthful. You impacted his performance, perhaps you can undo it a bit at a time.

Anyone have other/better ideas...??????


----------



## Diana7

I honestly have no desire to see any man's penis except my husbands. To compare our spouses sexual organs with others is destructive and hurtful, which is why we don't look at porn. We love and respect each other and our desire is for each other. I am interested in the man's character and integrity not what penis size he is.


----------



## 23cm

Once had a prospective GF take a look and say; "What the hell do you think you are going to do with that thing?" 

We worked things out. But, not in.


----------



## uhtred

I prefer fairly small breasts. To me large breasts look sort of uncomfortable, especially for vigorous activities, and I prefer women with a generally athletic build. Its not a big issue for me either way, but to the extent that I care, I find smallish breasts ideal. 

Actually a lot of ancient Greek Aphrodite have modest sized breasts, so at least historically very large breasts were not considered the epitome of beauty. 

BTW: nothing wrong with large breasted women, just stating my personal esthetic preference. 


My wife would actually prefer me to have a smaller penis. She is quite small and finds sex uncomfortable and when we use toys prefers ones considerably smaller than I am. (I am no unusual sized). 

Bigger is not better for penises or breasts. But there is a strange psychological connection that people *think* its important to have a large penis / breast, and its a difficult mind set to shake. 







WorkingWife said:


> Again - Where are all these men who like small breasts????!!!!!
> 
> It's true about the enhancement and since I always have that option, maybe I can't really put myself in the guy's shoes. But I used to feel very insecure/inadequate about my breasts size. (I've now learned it's actually average for a woman who is not overweight, so I've decided to be happy with them. At least they won't cause me back problems as I age. ;-)


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> *Bigger is not better for penises or breasts*. But there is a strange psychological connection that people *think* its important to have a large penis / breast, and its a difficult mind set to shake.


Bigger being better or not is an individual preference.

You've stated your preference, but that doesn't make it so for others who do feel bigger is better.


----------



## alexm

Blondilocks said:


> Like in a freak-show, circus kind of way?
> 
> Did you find your ex's DDDs more interesting, exciting, esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?


Yes and no. I've never been a boob guy, to start with - I genuinely don't care what size boobs my partner has, but I still like boobs (who doesn't?). I do have a preference for smaller, though (A cups, thank you) but it has about as much meaning to me as eye colour - don't really care. Light coloured eyes are sexy, but I'm really not going to care one way or the other, know what I mean?

I would say that, for as long as my ex wife had enormous boobs, yes I enjoyed them. When she decided to get fit, most of her weight left her boobs first and she went down to a B, without much change in the rest of her body - honest to god. That family is just top heavy, like in a cursed kind of way. Her sister had a breast reduction in her 20's.

But it was novelty for sure. It didn't make me more attracted to her. It was just like "holy ****, those are some huge boobs, wheeee!"

What I was getting at is that I have heard that many women enjoy the tactile feel of a huge penis, even if it won't be great for PIV. It's the novelty aspect of touching and playing with it, or even just looking at it. This society is innately bred to think bigger is better, even if it's to the detriment of usefulness. (see: trucks)

In any case, if and when you hear women talk about penises (or write about them) it's about the big ones or the small ones. The small ones are not talked about in a positive manner. The big ones are, despite them surpassing their usefulness.


----------



## alexm

23cm said:


> Once had a prospective GF take a look and say; "What the hell do you think you are going to do with that thing?"
> 
> We worked things out. But, not in.


I assume your handle is related to this subject?

Sincerely,

18cm

:grin2:


----------



## Don't Panic

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I have come across an anaconda before and yes it was beautiful, fun, sexy and fascinating. It was too big for me for comfortable PIV but I knew it was something that would get better the more we had sex. We didn't stay together long enough for that to happen but I was totally down for trying to get the whole thing inside of me, how ever many times it took.
> 
> This experience never made other men seem "less than" anaconda guy. A great lover with a great body and average sized penis is and was just as fun and wonderful for me.
> 
> *But the big one was simply beautiful to behold and handle and I was glad for the experience even though it didn't last long.*


Ah yes....the one that got away :wink2: My sympathies Faithful Wife


----------



## Faithful Wife

Don't Panic said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I have come across an anaconda before and yes it was beautiful, fun, sexy and fascinating. It was too big for me for comfortable PIV but I knew it was something that would get better the more we had sex. We didn't stay together long enough for that to happen but I was totally down for trying to get the whole thing inside of me, how ever many times it took.
> 
> This experience never made other men seem "less than" anaconda guy. A great lover with a great body and average sized penis is and was just as fun and wonderful for me.
> 
> *But the big one was simply beautiful to behold and handle and I was glad for the experience even though it didn't last long.*
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes....the one that got away
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sympathies Faithful Wife
Click to expand...

Oh heavens no...the guy was an idiot and I never looked back. No amount of awesome penis makes an idiot into a good partner.

I do have lots of nice pictures of it and do happily look at them sometimes 

But if I ever ran into the guy in public I'd hide behind whatever was available just to avoid even speaking to him. Good riddance.


----------



## Don't Panic

I agree! Brains trump beauty every time!


----------



## 23cm

alexm said:


> I assume your handle is related to this subject?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 18cm
> 
> :grin2:


Have to be a real big **** to do that sort of thing. :ezpi_wink1:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Herein lies the problem from the insecure man's point of view. 

It is possible for the dork with a big johnson to learn to behave in an attractive way. On the other hand it is not possible for an attractively behaved man with a microdong to turn said dong into a megadong, or even a middledong. He may know he's staying ahead by having other attractive features, but there's always the possibility he could be surpassed.


----------



## Dannip

FW prefers Awesome versus non-awesome gear. There goes my weekend... 

OPs husband should have responded to
OP by saying:

"I don't have to please anyone but me!!"

No more orgasm work for a year!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dannip said:


> FW prefers Awesome versus non-awesome gear. There goes my weekend...
> 
> OPs husband should have responded to
> OP by saying:
> 
> "I don't have to please anyone but me!!"
> I'm
> No more orgasm work for a year!


Most TAM readers are used to me now. I never miss an opportunity to jump in on a penis thread.

Mostly I just like making people squirm.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Herein lies the problem from the insecure man's point of view.
> 
> It is possible for the dork with a big johnson to learn to behave in an attractive way. On the other hand it is not possible for an attractively behaved man with a microdong to turn said dong into a megadong, or even a middledong. He may know he's staying ahead by having other attractive features, but there's always the possibility he could be surpassed.


But what a lot of guys just skim over or ignore is that women have the same types of insecurities.

Boobs, whatever, yeah boob jobs, blah blah blah, something we can change, etc.

That doesn't mean we can change in ways that would necessarily make us feel less insecure in the face of a partner who has a preferred body type or other preference that we are not.

Men seem to think they should be so so so coddled if they have penis insecurity, yet sometimes the same men will tell women to get over their insecurities because they are stupid and unfounded. It's just a double standard, plain and simple. 

Some men don't want to consider women's feelings, but they want women to consider theirs. A lot of men seem to think that having penis insecurity is somehow "worse" and "more painful" than the types of insecurities women may have.

Bullcrap.


----------



## Talker67

Wazza said:


> I don't know if it was the phrase alone. Maybe the phrase reinforced years of sexual rejection and made it seem hopeless. I wouldn't compare it to "Yes your ass looks big in those jeans".* I'd compare it to a guy saying "I don't love you, and never will."*
> 
> I am not at all surprised that some women regard it as a major overreaction on the guy's part. But I also think OP is right that it could end up wiping out the marriage if they can't get past it. OP has already said she gets that. The hard bit is knowing how to turn around.


yep, that coupled with him getting rejected for sex just confirmed it.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Men seem to think they should be so so so coddled if they have penis insecurity, yet sometimes the same men will tell women to get over their insecurities because they are stupid and unfounded. It's just a double standard, plain and simple.
> 
> Some men don't want to consider women's feelings, but they want women to consider theirs. A lot of men seem to think that having penis insecurity is somehow "worse" and "more painful" than the types of insecurities women may have.
> 
> Bullcrap.


Yes, insensitive men are all too common, as are insecure men with thin skin.

There does remain a key difference here: the penis is the part of the anatomy that actually does the deed. The boobs or butt do not. If you're going to make a fair comparison of insecurities, you have to compare apples to apples, i.e. genitals to genitals. There is no such thing as a (heterosexual) man who doesn't think all vaginas are equally marvelous. One can not tell visually if one is bigger than another, nor would that ever matter. I've never heard of a man saying "I like the appearance of so's vagina more than so and so's."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yes, insensitive men are all too common, as are insecure men with thin skin.
> 
> There does remain a key difference here: the penis is the part of the anatomy that actually does the deed. The boobs or butt do not. If you're going to make a fair comparison of insecurities, you have to compare apples to apples, i.e. genitals to genitals. * There is no such thing as a (heterosexual) man who doesn't think all vaginas are equally marvelous. One can not tell visually if one is bigger than another, nor would that ever matter. I've never heard of a man saying "I like the appearance of so's vagina more than so and so's.*"


The bolded is completely untrue and I've known (and heard about, and read the words by) many men who say exactly this type of thing. Ever heard the phrase "wizard's sleeve"? Who do you think came up with that, a woman?

The visual look of our feminine bits is also highly important to some men, and those it is important to will make their preferences known.

Maybe you don't realize this because guys may not say it to each other often or whatever, but trust me, YES some men have these preferences and YES many women know about them because we've heard it.

But on to your other points...

There are men who simply can't get turned on by a woman who is not his preference or her body turns him off in some way (and yes, some men will be completely turned off by a big fat ass even though other men will love it). Many men are turned off by belly fat (the same men may also have a giant beer gut but they somehow think women don't notice these things). If a man is turned off sufficiently by a woman's body, her genitals, her ass, her boobs, her bad breath, or whatever....he may not be able to sustain an erection or he will simply avoid sex. So since his preference for something other than what she has can make sex not happen or not successful, how is this not apples to apples?

A lot of men seem to think that how THEY think is representative of how "men think". So when some truly awesome man, who loves his wife exactly as she is, no matter how many changes her body goes through says "men think this way", I just have to shake my head. It is wonderful this hypothetical man thinks this way, but it most definitely does not mean other men think that way. Some do, some don't, but to project your wonderfulness on how other men think does a disservice to women who know better because we know first hand that not all men have such wide preferences or are loving no matter what the woman's body goes through.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> The bolded is completely untrue and I've known (and heard about, and read the words by) many men who say exactly this type of thing. Ever heard the phrase "wizard's sleeve"? Who do you think came up with that, a woman?
> 
> The visual look of our feminine bits is also highly important to some men, and those it is important to will make their preferences known.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize this because guys may not say it to each other often or whatever, but trust me, YES some men have these preferences and YES many women know about them because we've heard it.
> 
> But on to your other points...
> 
> There are men who simply can't get turned on by a woman who is not his preference or her body turns him off in some way (and yes, some men will be completely turned off by a big fat ass even though other men will love it). Many men are turned off by belly fat (the same men may also have a giant beer gut but they somehow think women don't notice these things). If a man is turned off sufficiently by a woman's body, her genitals, her ass, her boobs, her bad breath, or whatever....he may not be able to sustain an erection or he will simply avoid sex. So since his preference for something other than what she has can make sex not happen or not successful, how is this not apples to apples?
> 
> A lot of men seem to think that how THEY think is representative of how "men think". So when some truly awesome man, who loves his wife exactly as she is, no matter how many changes her body goes through says "men think this way", I just have to shake my head. It is wonderful this hypothetical man thinks this way, but it most definitely does not mean other men think that way. Some do, some don't, but to project your wonderfulness on how other men think does a disservice to women who know better because we know first hand that not all men have such wide preferences or are loving no matter what the woman's body goes through.


I have long known that I am personally not representative of most men. The fact that, despite having many attractive offers for sex, but waiting until I met my wife, that alone makes me an odd duck. So I'm well aware of the need to be aware of, and not project, my personal traits onto others. 

But I've know a lot of men--more than most having moved every 1 - 3 years of my entire life (except since having finally settled down 7 years ago, but that leaves 46 years of nomadic life). Every time, I was introduced to an entirely different batch of men, fell into a different circle of friends. These included men from all socioeconomic strata, blue and white collar, all races, and all religions. I've heard a lot of locker room talk, including every possible euphemism for female genitalia. I've never once heard any single man, no matter how crude, no matter how much of a player, no matter how anything, say the visual appearance of any vagina was a turn off--in fact, all I ever heard was quite the opposite. Most men would willingly dive into each and every one that made itself available. If they chose not to, it would be for some other reason (religious, desire for commitment first, etc), but it would have nothing to do with the appearance of the vagina. 

Hey, maybe I somehow ended up with men who aren't representative in all those places over all those years. Maybe there's some study out there that shows men have "vagina types." It would fly in the face of five decades of very diverse personal experience though, so you can imagine my surprise and incredulity. I suppose such men may exist, but they are a tiny minority, and like many minorities, what you may hear about/from them, is way out of proportion with their actual numbers.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hey, maybe I somehow ended up with men who aren't representative in all those places over all those years. Maybe there's some study out there that shows men have "vagina types." It would fly in the face of five decades of very diverse personal experience though, so you can imagine my surprise and incredulity. I suppose such men may exist, but they are a tiny minority, and like many minorities, what you may hear about/from them, is way out of proportion with their actual numbers.


I won't bother to do so, but I could quickly whip up dozens of statements by men in various internet places who are talking about their preferences in the way female genitalia looks, and that there some vaginas they don't want any part of (some don't smell right, some don't look right, whatever it is). 

In fact, there is such a frenzy going on about how a woman's exterior genital appearance "should" be that women are actually going in for surgeries to alter how they look down there. Why would women do this if they didn't have the idea that they could some how look better than they already do? Where would this idea come from? It has been blamed on porn so I guess some men could say "well that's dumb, we don't expect you to get surgery just to look like a porn star". Then out of the other side of his mouth the same man might say "porn DOES reflect men's desires and fantasies". So we are supposed to believe that the *way women look in porn* is not reflecting men's fantasies?

You also didn't respond to the rest of my post, which was about how the rest of our bodies could be a turn off in such a way that a man will not be able to maintain an erection or will avoid sex.

So in the end, it seems you just wanted to say in your post above "I still don't want to see your point FW, and anything that doesn't align with what I've experienced is a tiny minority and therefore it is still more painful to a man to feel insecure about his penis than it is for a woman to feel insecure about anything".

There is a double standard here. Most men don't see it, but it is here.

This is why I always jump in on a penis thread. To point out this hypocrisy.


----------



## Dannip

Faithful Wife said:


> Most TAM readers are used to me now. I never miss an opportunity to jump in on a penis thread.
> 
> Mostly I just like making people squirm.


Just doin my part for your enjoyment!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dannip said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most TAM readers are used to me now. I never miss an opportunity to jump in on a penis thread.
> 
> Mostly I just like making people squirm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just doin my part for your enjoyment!
Click to expand...

I appreciate that and assume it means you have a huge dong.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It doesn't matter if it touches bottom so long as it scrapes the sides


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> I won't bother to do so, but I could quickly whip up dozens of statements by men in various internet places who are talking about their preferences in the way female genitalia looks, and that there some vaginas they don't want any part of (some don't smell right, some don't look right, whatever it is).
> 
> In fact, there is such a frenzy going on about how a woman's exterior genital appearance "should" be that women are actually going in for surgeries to alter how they look down there. Why would women do this if they didn't have the idea that they could some how look better than they already do? Where would this idea come from? It has been blamed on porn so I guess some men could say "well that's dumb, we don't expect you to get surgery just to look like a porn star". Then out of the other side of his mouth the same man might say "porn DOES reflect men's desires and fantasies". So we are supposed to believe that the *way women look in porn* is not reflecting men's fantasies?
> 
> You also didn't respond to the rest of my post, which was about how the rest of our bodies could be a turn off in such a way that a man will not be able to maintain an erection or will avoid sex.
> 
> So in the end, it seems you just wanted to say in your post above "I still don't want to see your point FW, and anything that doesn't align with what I've experienced is a tiny minority and therefore it is still more painful to a man to feel insecure about his penis than it is for a woman to feel insecure about anything else
> 
> There is a double standard here. Most men don't see it, but it is here.
> 
> This is why I always jump in on a penis thread. To point out this hypocrisy.


para 1.
We could whip up dozens of internet posts expressing any topic under the sun... that doesn't mean those positions are prevalent in the real world. I can find plenty of posts that are hell bent on damning all men as the root of all evil, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that a significant portion of women are man haters. There are some areas where my personal experience is admittedly rather narrow, and I take that into account. But I suspect the thousands of men I've known are across all strata are more representative than anonymous internet posters.

Para 2
If that's the case, that is truly sad. I would contend that this is a dreadful overreaction, first because I still believe they are reacting to an insignificant minority and second because no woman should ever feel the need to alter her physical structure for a man (see my previous post regarding my disdain for men who want their wives to get boob jobs. Disgraceful.)

Para 3
I didn't respond to the rest of the post because it was already covered. Those other bits don't do the deed so it's not a valid comparison. I do see your point though, that they may play a part in sexual attraction. But I still see a significant difference between mere appearance and actual physical contact.

Para 4
It may seem that way, but that's not how it is. As described above, It's not just that it doesn't jive with my personal experience, but rather the nature, depth and breadth of that experience warrants greater consideration than a few random posters and some hysterically insecure women who overreact to a non-event. Recall Also that I agreed up front that men are often both insensitive about others and far too sensitive about themselves. That is one of many double standards men have perpetuated throughout time. I'm only arguing a slight matter of degree here which is based on the undeniable differences between the parts under discussion,

If there really is some widespread male criticism of vaginal appearances, I apologize for my ignorance, but I have yet to hear of such a thing. Maybe some of the other men here could tell us if they've ever ditched a partner for having an ugly vagina?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> para 1.
> We could whip up dozens of internet posts expressing any topic under the sun... that doesn't mean those positions are prevalent in the real world. I can find plenty of posts that are hell bent on damning all men as the root of all evil, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that a significant portion of women are man haters. There are some areas where my personal experience is admittedly rather narrow, and I take that into account. But I suspect the thousands of men I've known are across all strata are more representative than anonymous internet posters.
> 
> Para 2
> If that's the case, that is truly sad. I would contend that this is a dreadful overreaction, first because I still believe they are reacting to an insignificant minority and second because no woman should ever feel the need to alter her physical structure for a man (see my previous post regarding my disdain for men who want their wives to get boob jobs. Disgraceful.)
> 
> Para 3
> I didn't respond to the rest of the post because it was already covered. *Those other bits don't do the deed so it's not a valid comparison. I do see your point though, that they may play a part in sexual attraction. But I still see a significant difference between mere appearance and actual physical contact.
> *
> Para 4
> It may seem that way, but that's not how it is. As described above, It's not just that it doesn't jive with my personal experience, but rather the nature, depth and breadth of that experience warrants greater consideration than *a few random posters and some hysterically insecure women who overreact to a non-event.* Recall Also that I agreed up front that men are often both insensitive about others and far too sensitive about themselves. That is one of many double standards men have perpetuated throughout time. I'm only arguing a slight matter of degree here which is based on the undeniable differences between the parts under discussion,
> 
> If there really is some widespread male criticism of vaginal appearances, I apologize for my ignorance, but I have yet to hear of such a thing. Maybe some of the other men here could tell us if they've ever ditched a partner for having an ugly vagina?


The first bolded is simply another way of saying "men's penis insecurity is more painful than women's insecurity about anything, because I say so based on these parameters that I have decided are thus and so".

The second bolded....This is the very double standard I'm talking about. I was talking in part about real women I actually know in person who have been told such things directly by men. Also women whose bodies were so not-his-preference that he couldn't get an erection for her. Also women who were cheated on when they were pregnant because according to their husbands, they couldn't get turned on "by that shape". These women are not imagining things, they are not "a few random posters", they are not "hysterically insecure". They have had their self esteem crushed by a specific man's words or actions that directly had to do with how they were deemed unfkable by said man.

But when I talk about this, it is immediately assumed I am talking about random, hypothetical or internet women and that my point has no relevance. Somehow the crushing things men say to women are supposed to be a "non event". 

Why?

Because you said so, because you, like a lot of men, honestly think that penis insecurity is more painful than any type of insecurity a woman might experience.

Your rationalization for this is nonsense. It is a double standard, and men and women both get hurt and get insecure and one is not worse than the other.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheTruthHurts said:


> It doesn't matter if it touches bottom so long as it scrapes the sides


Assuming you don't have a vagina, you have no way to say if it matters or not.


----------



## uhtred

Sorry, I should have said "bigger is not always better". I was countering the idea that wanting bigger was universal, not that some people prefer bigger. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Bigger being better or not is an individual preference.
> 
> You've stated your preference, but that doesn't make it so for others who do feel bigger is better.


----------



## uhtred

That is a somewhat limited view of human sexuality. There are a significant number of men who care very much what their partner's penis feels like when they are having sex.....



Faithful Wife said:


> Assuming you don't have a vagina, you have no way to say if it matters or not.


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> Sorry, I should have said "bigger is not always better". I was countering the idea that wanting bigger was universal, not that some people prefer bigger.
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger being better or not is an individual preference.
> 
> You've stated your preference, but that doesn't make it so for others who do feel bigger is better.
Click to expand...

Ok good we are in agreement then that bigger is better for some.


----------



## uhtred

Yes. A quick look through adult toy shops and their most popular toys seems to suggest:

The most popular toys tend to be vaguely average size, maybe a little above average. 

Some women like quite small toys. (not just for anal based on the comments). 

Some women like really enormous toys.


A look through a gay toy shop seems to suggest that gay men are more likely to be interested in enormous toys than women are. (of course many also prefer normal sizes)

I haven't browsed shops catering mostly to lesbian women so I don't know what sort of mix they would have. 


I would hazard a guess that lack of endowment is not very frequently the biggest problem in people's sex lives. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Ok good we are in agreement then that bigger is better for some.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> The first bolded is simply another way of saying "men's penis insecurity is more painful than women's insecurity about anything, because I say so based on these parameters that I have decided are thus and so".
> 
> The second bolded....This is the very double standard I'm talking about. I was talking in part about real women I actually know in person who have been told such things directly by men. Also women whose bodies were so not-his-preference that he couldn't get an erection for her. Also women who were cheated on when they were pregnant because according to their husbands, they couldn't get turned on "by that shape". These women are not imagining things, they are not "a few random posters", they are not "hysterically insecure". They have had their self esteem crushed by a specific man's words or actions that directly had to do with how they were deemed unfkable by said man.
> 
> But when I talk about this, it is immediately assumed I am talking about random, hypothetical or internet women and that my point has no relevance. Somehow the crushing things men say to women are supposed to be a "non event".
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you said so, because you, like a lot of men, honestly think that penis insecurity is more painful than any type of insecurity a woman might experience.
> 
> Your rationalization for this is nonsense. It is a double standard, and men and women both get hurt and get insecure and one is not worse than the other.


Regarding the first bolded, I truly have no idea whether one is more painful than the other or not, nor have I said that it is. That's entirely up to the recipient of the slight to decide how injured they choose to feel. There are strong and self confident as well as weak and insecure in both sexes. I'm simply acknowledging a difference between the role played in sex between genetalia and non genetalia. One is directly involved and the other is not, so it follows logically that one might draw a more sensitive response than the other. Call that rationalization if you like--logically it is a significant distinction. Is penis insecurity inherently more painful than boob insecurity? Hell, I don't know. But I can see a clear, logical path to why some might think that.

Regarding the second bolded, I did not automatically assume you were talking about random posters - I was responding directly to your statement that you could point out dozens of internet posts (which itself is statistically insignificant and purely anecdotal). This vague assertion was the ONLY reference you made up until now--you said nothing about "women you actually know" until now. If I made a false assumption, it was based specifically on the statement you made at the time. 

I have always appreciated and generally been in lock step with your posts. You always seem well thought out, rational and practical. There are a few posters I learn a great deal from on these boards and you are one of them (EleGirl, AnonPink. Feminist in Pink also come immediately to mind but there are others to whom I apologize for not mentioning by call sign). So while your posts here seem more emotional, more like trigger responses than the level headed discourse I've become accustomed to from you, I still take your posts here very seriously as you have earned my genuine respect. So I accept your assertion that there are these insensitive jackasses out there making a mess of their relationships. But with regard to those specifically doing so based on genital appearance, with the purely anecdotal evidence presented so far, I remain unconvinced that they exist in significant numbers ( and yes I know this is of no comfort to the unlucky women who end up with them).

To be horrifically blunt and vulgar but straight up truthful, most men just love p*$$y. Period. To have insecurity about such a thing is silly-you have a better chance of getting killed in an auto accident driving to work than you do of getting rejected because of how your coochie looks.


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> That is a somewhat limited view of human sexuality. There are a significant number of men who care very much what their partner's penis feels like when they are having sex.....
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you don't have a vagina, you have no way to say if it matters or not.
Click to expand...

Valid point!

Was just saying that a man can't say what it is like from a woman's perspective.

His post seemed to imply the woman's perspective so that's what I was replying to...but from a man's perspective, I wouldn't be able to say if it matters either.


----------



## Thor

OP only posted twice, the last time on page 3 several days ago. I would say the red meat tossed into the cage has successfully stirred up the animals.


----------



## WorkingWife

alexm said:


> 3 inches is small, but it's clear that it can work for some women.
> This may be too personal, but I am curious - if you've ever come across a large penis before, was it not inherently more, I don't know, interesting? Exciting? Esthetically pleasing to the eye, or just fun to play with?


No. Not really. I have come across one or two of a certain size and thickness where I thought "That's Nice. That's just perfect!" But what makes a penis interesting to me is it's usefulness - what it can do to me. What makes me want to play with it is knowing that I can make the guy feel great by doing different things to it. It's more of a utilitarian appeal than aesthetic. Kind of like I LOVE to cook. But bowls and knives and stoves and ovens don't actually *interest *me. I would learn about them in order to get the best tool for what I want to do but it would not interest me the way actually cooking does.




alexm said:


> I ask this, because I've understood that, although a really large penis may not be ideal (or even work) for PIV, it may be more... exciting. Surely it's got a novelty aspect to it, especially if it's too big for PIV.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The first bolded is simply another way of saying "men's penis insecurity is more painful than women's insecurity about anything, because I say so based on these parameters that I have decided are thus and so".
> 
> The second bolded....This is the very double standard I'm talking about. I was talking in part about real women I actually know in person who have been told such things directly by men. Also women whose bodies were so not-his-preference that he couldn't get an erection for her. Also women who were cheated on when they were pregnant because according to their husbands, they couldn't get turned on "by that shape". These women are not imagining things, they are not "a few random posters", they are not "hysterically insecure". They have had their self esteem crushed by a specific man's words or actions that directly had to do with how they were deemed unfkable by said man.
> 
> But when I talk about this, it is immediately assumed I am talking about random, hypothetical or internet women and that my point has no relevance. Somehow the crushing things men say to women are supposed to be a "non event".
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you said so, because you, like a lot of men, honestly think that penis insecurity is more painful than any type of insecurity a woman might experience.
> 
> Your rationalization for this is nonsense. It is a double standard, and men and women both get hurt and get insecure and one is not worse than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the first bolded, I truly have no idea whether one is more painful than the other or not, nor have I said that it is. That's entirely up to the recipient of the slight to decide how injured they choose to feel. There are strong and self confident as well as weak and insecure in both sexes. I'm simply acknowledging a difference between the role played in sex between genetalia and non genetalia. One is directly involved and the other is not, so it follows logically that one might draw a more sensitive response than the other. Call that rationalization if you like--logically it is a significant distinction. Is penis insecurity inherently more painful than boob insecurity? Hell, I don't know. But I can see a clear, logical path to why some might think that.
> 
> Regarding the second bolded, I did not automatically assume you were talking about random posters - I was responding directly to your statement that you could point out dozens of internet posts (which itself is statistically insignificant and purely anecdotal). This vague assertion was the ONLY reference you made up until now--you said nothing about "women you actually know" until now. If I made a false assumption, it was based specifically on the statement you made at the time.
> 
> I have always appreciated and generally been in lock step with your posts. You always seem well thought out, rational and practical. There are a few posters I learn a great deal from on these boards and you are one of them (EleGirl, AnonPink. Feminist in Pink also come immediately to mind but there are others to whom I apologize for not mentioning by call sign). So while your posts here seem more emotional, more like trigger responses than the level headed discourse I've become accustomed to from you, I still take your posts here very seriously as you have earned my genuine respect. So I accept your assertion that there are these insensitive jackasses out there making a mess of their relationships. But with regard to those specifically doing so based on genital appearance, with the purely anecdotal evidence presented so far, I remain unconvinced that they exist in significant numbers ( and yes I know this is of no comfort to the unlucky women who end up with them).
> 
> To be horrifically blunt and vulgar but straight up truthful, most men just love p*$$y. Period. To have insecurity about such a thing is silly-you have a better chance of getting killed in an auto accident driving to work than you do of getting rejected because of how your coochie looks.
Click to expand...

Thank you for what you said about me and my posts, I feel the same about you and your posts. I respect you and all of your posts are from a good and balanced point of view, from my point of view. 

This topic is endless at TAM. The point I'm trying to make is that men do not coddle women about their insecurities. Men generally think women should feel great about themselves sexually so if a woman is insecure, most men will tell her it's silly to be insecure and may reassure her (or women in general) for a moment or two, but beyond that, men do not coddle women's insecurities. If a woman says well men are mean and say mean things, a man will say well those men are idiots so dont listen to them, problem solved.

But many of these same men DO expect women to coddle their penis insecurities. They also know other men DO coddle their own and each other's penis insecurities. It is just accepted in our culture that men have fragile sexual egos and everyone, both men and women, should tip toe around this universal insecurity.

I'm just done with this. Men need to get over it. Men need to accept that some women have preferences and not be threatened by this. Men need to learn to be good with themselves and work with what they've got.

And don't get me wrong...I don't think men or women should coddle women's insecurities either. We all have to grow a pair and deal with not being all things to all people (and then ask ourselves why the heck that would even be a goal?)

So someone isn't into you. Who cares!! Someone else is!! This is true for all of us.

You brought in how the argument should be apples to apples and that annoyed me, because the issue to me is simply insecurities that everyone has. And that is the apples to apples.

Please men. Stop coddling this insecurity in yourself and in each other. Stop being butt hurt if a woman has a preference that isn't you. Women need to do the same and if you have an example of how women need to stop coddling their own insecurities, I'd be happy to hear it, in an apples to apples way, and I'm sure I would agree with you.

We all need to both get over ourselves and accept ourselves, simultaneously.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said:


> OP only posted twice, the last time on page 3 several days ago. I would say the red meat tossed into the cage has successfully stirred up the animals.


Mmmmm.....meat.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Thank you for what you said about me and my posts, I feel the same about you and your posts. I respect you and all of your posts are from a good and balanced point of view, from my point of view.
> 
> This topic is endless at TAM. The point I'm trying to make is that men do not coddle women about their insecurities. Men generally think women should feel great about themselves sexually so if a woman is insecure, most men will tell her it's silly to be insecure and may reassure her (or women in general) for a moment or two, but beyond that, men do not coddle women's insecurities. If a woman says well men are mean and say mean things, a man will say well those men are idiots so dont listen to them, problem solved.
> 
> But many of these same men DO expect women to coddle their penis insecurities. They also know other men DO coddle their own and each other's penis insecurities. It is just accepted in our culture that men have fragile sexual egos and everyone, both men and women, should tip toe around this universal insecurity.
> 
> I'm just done with this. Men need to get over it. Men need to accept that some women have preferences and not be threatened by this. Men need to learn to be good with themselves and work with what they've got.
> 
> And don't get me wrong...I don't think men or women should coddle women's insecurities either. We all have to grow a pair and deal with not being all things to all people (and then ask ourselves why the heck that would even be a goal?)
> 
> So someone isn't into you. Who cares!! Someone else is!! This is true for all of us.
> 
> You brought in how the argument should be apples to apples and that annoyed me, because the issue to me is simply insecurities that everyone has. And that is the apples to apples.
> 
> Please men. Stop coddling this insecurity in yourself and in each other. Stop being butt hurt if a woman has a preference that isn't you. Women need to do the same and if you have an example of how women need to stop coddling their own insecurities, I'd be happy to hear it, in an apples to apples way, and I'm sure I would agree with you.
> 
> We all need to both get over ourselves and accept ourselves, simultaneously.


I knew we'd eventually get around to a bottom line of solid agreement. Your last sentence is spot on.

At the risk of beating yet another dead horse, I will offer the following: women turn down men for sex far more often than the other way around. Men are usually ready to go at the drop of a hat. If they aren't, it's not because her boobs aren't big enough; in fact it's probably not even appearance related at all. Remember the discussion in "When Harry met Sally?" Billy Crystal tells Meg Ryan it's impossible for a man to be friends with an attractive woman because he really just wants to bed her. She responds by assuming then that a man could be friends with an unattractive woman to which Crystal responds "nah. You pretty much want to nail them too." 

I know there are sexually neglected women, and their pain of rejection is every bit as real as the rejection men feel. But it remains true that men get turned down far more often than women. Right or wrong, the natural response to this rejection is to create or reinforce insecurities. This is further reinforced by the fact that men pretty much always come (barring some medical condition) and women often don't, especially through intercourse (yes we know that's due primarily due to anatomy, but as long as some do, it's very hard to take for those who's partners don't). Put those two things together and men are presented with far more opportunities/reasons to think "so what the hell's wrong with me ". Oh. Back to the diner scene in "When Harry Met Sally," we all got schooled in how women fake orgasms--that'll really help those insecurities!

Like before, I'm not sayin these insecurities should be coddled, just pointing out where they come from and noting that most men would appreciate a little understanding here, just as women desire understanding and sensitivity on the part of their partners. My wife occasionally expresses dissatisfaction with her breasts; for my part, I regularly express my appreciation of them in both word and in deed. It's a win-win.

As for an example of how women need to stop coddling their own insecurities, I think you already gave one with the trend toward genital surgery. I find that very sad. Even More prevalent would be either getting, or desiring, breast augmentation, or any other kind of artificial enhancements. But by far the most common is the effort so many women put into the application of makeup in an attempt to disguise every little perceived imperfection, including ones no man would ever notice, even if you gave them a magnifying glass and hit the exact location of the alleged wrinkle or blemish with a laser pointer!


----------



## sokillme

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As for an example of how women need to stop coddling their own insecurities, I think you already gave one with the trend toward genital surgery. I find that very sad. Even More prevalent would be either getting, or desiring, breast augmentation, or any other kind of artificial enhancements. But by far the most common is the effort so many women put into the application of makeup in an attempt to disguise every little perceived imperfection, including ones no man would ever notice, even if you gave them a magnifying glass and hit the exact location of the alleged wrinkle or blemish with a laser pointer!



Now my turn to beat a dead horse. Who are you or anyone else to say what anyone should do with their own body. Lots of people find great value and happiness because of plastic surgery. If someone wants to change something about themselves that is their choice. Doesn't make them shallow, any more then wearing nice clothes does. Men get stuff done too by the way.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There is no such thing as a (heterosexual) man who doesn't think all vaginas are equally marvelous.


Woah there tiger! This heterosexual man certainly doesn't think all vaginas are equally marvellous.

In my experience some womens vulvas are more or less aesthetically appealing than some others, just as some womens vulvas and vaginas feel better or worse than others while having sex.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I've never heard of a man saying "I like the appearance of so's vagina more than so and so's."


Although I haven't mentioned my vulva and vaginal preferences to other men before, I have heard some men express such preferences.

That said I am happy to share with you that I have always preferred the vulvas of some of the women I have been with over some of the other women I have been with.


----------



## Personal

uhtred said:


> I would hazard a guess that lack of endowment is not very frequently the biggest problem in people's sex lives.


My wife thinks a lack of male endowment would be a significant relationship ending problem. As in she wouldn't want to be with a man who was found wanting in that area, since she feels pleasurable penetrative sex would be limited.


----------



## alexm

Dannip said:


> FW prefers Awesome versus non-awesome gear. There goes my weekend...


Nah, she said it doesn't matter, but the 'anaconda' was fun to look at, play with, etc. But it also didn't really work out for her as far as PIV goes, In other words, a novelty. She's described what _her_ perfect penis is before, and it's not this.

As was related to my original question about size and esthetics (not function), I don't think FW is alone in this, either. She's just more forthcoming than most women here 

Bottom line, gentlemen, anacondas are fun, sexy, esthetically pleasing, and a novelty. For 9 out of 10 women, they're not even remotely ideal. Even FW said, the excitement for her was _trying_ to get it in (and looking at it!).

As far as the man's side of things go, it's also not ideal. I spent 14 years with my ex wife and I always had to take it slow - and I'm not anaconda-sized. She wasn't the first I had to do that with. My current wife is shaped/sized differently, and I've never hit anything she wouldn't want me to.

I've said this before (damn these threads about penises, they keep happening!) but my guess is that my ex wife would probably have preferred in the 5-5.5" range with average girth. Another woman I was with, we did not even bother with PIV - and again, I'm not an anaconda. A couple others were a pretty snug fit, and one (my current wife) is a very good fit. She could handle bigger than me with no problem but it's not necessary at all. And a friend of ours recently blabbed that her stbxh is 5" and was perfect for her.

So remember men, whether you're 5, 6 or 7" or you're 8, 9 or 10", it still depends just as much on the woman you're with as it does your penis size. It's not just the penis that can be quote/unquote "inadequate".


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> But what a lot of guys just skim over or ignore is that women have the same types of insecurities.
> 
> Boobs, whatever, yeah boob jobs, blah blah blah, something we can change, etc.
> 
> That doesn't mean we can change in ways that would necessarily make us feel less insecure in the face of a partner who has a preferred body type or other preference that we are not.
> 
> Men seem to think they should be so so so coddled if they have penis insecurity, yet sometimes the same men will tell women to get over their insecurities because they are stupid and unfounded. It's just a double standard, plain and simple.
> 
> Some men don't want to consider women's feelings, but they want women to consider theirs. A lot of men seem to think that having penis insecurity is somehow "worse" and "more painful" than the types of insecurities women may have.
> 
> Bullcrap.


I can't speak for ALL men, but I think most of us just want our partners to _like_ our penises and say so (or act like they like them). It's far less about size than most women would think. We men know what we have. We know if we're big, small or average.

I am at the top end of 'average' or the low end of 'big' (whatever way you want to slice it). If a woman ever said "oh my god, that's huge!" I'd know they were saying it for my benefit (or that they've somehow managed to only ever have experience with smaller penises, but that would be unlikely). It would be like me telling my wife that her boobs are huge, when they're C-cups.

For me, I have nothing to be insecure about, and I know it. But I've never had a woman, including my wife, make any positive (or negative, mind you) comments about my penis. That's okay, it doesn't define me, but almost all of us men and women want or _need_ to hear positive comments about our bodies, especially when it comes to sex.

Take all of the men you've been intimate with, FW, and imagine that not a single one of them ever said anything about your body (or body parts), positive or negative. It'd be weird, right?


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> Assuming you don't have a vagina, you have no way to say if it matters or not.


This ^

My wife greatly prefers it when I "hit bottom". Others, not so much. Really depends on one's own body.


----------



## alexm

WorkingWife said:


> No. Not really. I have come across one or two of a certain size and thickness where I thought "That's Nice. That's just perfect!" But what makes a penis interesting to me is it's usefulness - what it can do to me. What makes me want to play with it is knowing that I can make the guy feel great by doing different things to it. It's more of a utilitarian appeal than aesthetic. Kind of like I LOVE to cook. But bowls and knives and stoves and ovens don't actually *interest *me. I would learn about them in order to get the best tool for what I want to do but it would not interest me the way actually cooking does.


Okay. Bit of a trap question, I admit, but:

Given the choice of two penises to play with (not have intercourse with), what would be more "fun" or exciting (visually appealing) to do so with? A below average sized penis, or one that is huge?

They're attached to the same awesome guy, and he'll get pleasure no matter what, so the question is about you and your excitement/pleasure from simply touching and playing with it.


----------



## samyeagar

alexm said:


> Nah, she said it doesn't matter, but the 'anaconda' was fun to look at, play with, etc. But it also didn't really work out for her as far as PIV goes, In other words, a novelty. She's described what _her_ perfect penis is before, and it's not this.
> 
> As was related to my original question about size and esthetics (not function), I don't think FW is alone in this, either. She's just more forthcoming than most women here
> 
> Bottom line, gentlemen, anacondas are fun, sexy, esthetically pleasing, and a novelty. For 9 out of 10 women, they're not even remotely ideal. Even FW said, the excitement for her was _trying_ to get it in (and looking at it!).
> 
> As far as the man's side of things go, it's also not ideal. I spent 14 years with my ex wife and I always had to take it slow - and I'm not anaconda-sized. She wasn't the first I had to do that with. My current wife is shaped/sized differently, and I've never hit anything she wouldn't want me to.
> 
> I've said this before (damn these threads about penises, they keep happening!) but my guess is that my ex wife would probably have preferred in the 5-5.5" range with average girth. Another woman I was with, we did not even bother with PIV - and again, I'm not an anaconda. A couple others were a pretty snug fit, and one (my current wife) is a very good fit. She could handle bigger than me with no problem but it's not necessary at all. And a friend of ours recently blabbed that her stbxh is 5" and was perfect for her.
> 
> So remember men, whether you're 5, 6 or 7" or you're 8, 9 or 10", it still depends just as much on the woman you're with as it does your penis size. It's not just the penis that can be quote/unquote "inadequate".


And it tends to be the extremes that get talked about the most, especially in normal sex talk. Can't really picture the group of girlfriends talking 10 minutes about a boyfriend and his perfectly average penis, but hang him like a horse of a squirrel, and there's going to be hours of material there.

And there's the crux of the issue, and a variant of the issue I have had with my wife...People tend to be more outwardly expressive about things that matter to them, things they have strong feelings about, and more quiet about things they are just meh about...it is extremely difficult to reconcile the topic of conversation is actually the thing that doesn't matter, while the comparative silence is the thing that is better, or more important...if that makes any sense.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

sokillme said:


> Now my turn to beat a dead horse. Who are you or anyone else to say what anyone should do with their own body. Lots of people find great value and happiness because of plastic surgery. If someone wants to change something about themselves that is their choice. Doesn't make them shallow, any more then wearing nice clothes does. Men get stuff done too by the way.



I think most people would agree that taking a scalpel to ones genitals is a little over the top.

But review the convo here. My statement wasn't even about the _what_, it was about the _why_. And it's a huge stretch to think I made some kind of blanket statement that anybody who makes changes in their appearance is shallow. Bit of an overreaction there. The whole point is that, _when these things are done purely as an indulgence of ones own irrational insecurities_, that's sad, and yes, may well be indicative of shallow character. If you can only "find happiness because of plastic surgery," then you're missing something, character-wise, to begin with (I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery here, just purely cosmetic procedures done by people who had nothing wrong with them in the first place). So much better to find happiness in who you are, what you do, what you accomplish, how you positively impact others, etc. not purely superficial things. 

And yes, the same goes for men. Just look as all the dodgy commercial enterprises making millions off of bogus pills, powders, and creams to make your member bigger. It's crazy.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You guys are all nuts. The proof is my teenage comment 'bout scraping the sides (summer job working on the roads and the guys had tons of stupid sexual comments I found funny) and posters actually started to argue about it. 

Every time "penis" enters a thread around here everyone goes nuts.

And btw the proper response to the question "does my ass look big in this" is "hey, more cushion for the pushin' babe"

And if you really want to compliment a random woman on the street, tell her she's got nice legs and you love how the go up and make an ass of themselves.

BTW clearly these are my viewpoints and not stupid jokes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what a lot of guys just skim over or ignore is that women have the same types of insecurities.
> 
> Boobs, whatever, yeah boob jobs, blah blah blah, something we can change, etc.
> 
> That doesn't mean we can change in ways that would necessarily make us feel less insecure in the face of a partner who has a preferred body type or other preference that we are not.
> 
> Men seem to think they should be so so so coddled if they have penis insecurity, yet sometimes the same men will tell women to get over their insecurities because they are stupid and unfounded. It's just a double standard, plain and simple.
> 
> Some men don't want to consider women's feelings, but they want women to consider theirs. A lot of men seem to think that having penis insecurity is somehow "worse" and "more painful" than the types of insecurities women may have.
> 
> Bullcrap.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for ALL men, but I think most of us just want our partners to _like_ our penises and say so (or act like they like them). It's far less about size than most women would think. We men know what we have. We know if we're big, small or average.
> 
> I am at the top end of 'average' or the low end of 'big' (whatever way you want to slice it). If a woman ever said "oh my god, that's huge!" I'd know they were saying it for my benefit (or that they've somehow managed to only ever have experience with smaller penises, but that would be unlikely). It would be like me telling my wife that her boobs are huge, when they're C-cups.
> 
> For me, I have nothing to be insecure about, and I know it. But I've never had a woman, including my wife, make any positive (or negative, mind you) comments about my penis. That's okay, it doesn't define me, but almost all of us men and women want or _need_ to hear positive comments about our bodies, especially when it comes to sex.
> 
> Take all of the men you've been intimate with, FW, and imagine that not a single one of them ever said anything about your body (or body parts), positive or negative. It'd be weird, right?
Click to expand...

@alexm

I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.

I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.

When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis. 

I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.

I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy. 

I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).




Good for you. I agree. I'm lucky because I know my w loves mine though she doesn't verbalize it that much. But she adores giving head which is a sure sign. I compliment her on her beauty, as well as her sexual appeal and try to notice when she's spent time doing something different with her hair. I suspect comments about her hair are the most important - to her and many other women I know. I guess it's just important to try to listen to what makes your SO tick. Still trying but I probably miss a lot 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).


Bingo!!!

Many mornings as I head out to work, my wife will say I look nice. Puts me in a good mood right from the get-go. 

Some evenings as we lay in bed, she'll grab a handful of bicep and say "I love your muscles." 
Ego boost!

No, I don't need these things to feel good about myself. I know who and what I am and am plenty comfortable in my own skin. Bit it is nice to know your partner appreciates your physical attributes. I receive compliments far less than I give them, but that's fine too. When they come, I know they're sincere and they have real meaning. It's part of the lubrication that keeps a relationship gliding along smoothly--and it's so easy to do. The payoff relative to the effort given is tremendous.


----------



## sokillme

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think most people would agree that taking a scalpel to ones genitals is a little over the top.
> 
> But review the convo here. My statement wasn't even about the _what_, it was about the _why_. And it's a huge stretch to think I made some kind of blanket statement that anybody who makes changes in their appearance is shallow. Bit of an overreaction there. The whole point is that, _when these things are done purely as an indulgence of ones own irrational insecurities_, that's sad, and yes, may well be indicative of shallow character. If you can only "find happiness because of plastic surgery," then you're missing something, character-wise, to begin with (I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery here, just purely cosmetic procedures done by people who had nothing wrong with them in the first place). So much better to find happiness in who you are, what you do, what you accomplish, how you positively impact others, etc. not purely superficial things.
> 
> And yes, the same goes for men. Just look as all the dodgy commercial enterprises making millions off of bogus pills, powders, and creams to make your member bigger. It's crazy.


You criticized women for wearing makeup which is about 90% of most western women and a majority of men like that they do if we are honest. You mentioned Breast Implants which if not the most is the second most common type of plastic surgery. 



> If you can only "find happiness because of plastic surgery," then you're missing something, character-wise, to begin with


 This is judgemental and wrong. Some people find happiness in cars, some in education, some in looking nice. That isn't a character flaw if you have a mole you want removed, want to look nicer in pictures or fit your clothes better. It's just wrong to judge their character as it has no effect on you or anyone else (I am not talking here about someone addicted to plastic surgery). If you have a nose that is too big to fit on your face and you can get it fixed go for it if you want. We live in an image conscious world and with the prevalence of phones and social media it is only getting more so. 

You make not like it but that is the way it is. Frankly being attractive is a commodity in this world, just like being smart and educated. Again that may not be fair but it is, at least there is a way to improve that. This is especially important if you are a women, being attractive helps her prospects, if you happen to be born unattractive it is good that there is a way to help that. That is not fair but it's life, I don't see very many men wanting to marry an unattractive women. Not PC but true. Obviously for you appearance isn't important, I suspect form you name and avatar you are more of an earthy-crunchy type which is fine but you should stop judging others who are not.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

sokillme said:


> You criticized women for wearing makeup which is about 90% of most western women and a majority of men like that they do if we are honest. You mentioned Breast Implants which if not the most is the second most common type of plastic surgery.
> 
> 
> 
> This is judgemental and wrong. Some people find happiness in cars, some in education, some in looking nice. That isn't a character flaw if you have a mole you want removed, want to look nicer in pictures or fit your clothes better. It's just wrong to judge their character as it has no effect on you or anyone else (I am not talking here about someone addicted to plastic surgery). If you have a nose that is too big to fit on your face and you can get it fixed go for it if you want. We live in an image conscious world and with the prevalence of phones and social media it is only getting more so.
> 
> 
> 
> You make not like it but that is the way it is. Frankly being attractive is a commodity in this world, just like being smart and educated. Again that may not be fair but it is, at least there is a way to improve that. This is especially important if you are a women, being attractive helps her prospects, if you happen to be born unattractive it is good that there is a way to help that. That is not fair but it's life, I don't see very many men wanting to marry an unattractive women. Not PC but true. Obviously for you appearance isn't important, I suspect form you name and avatar you are more of an earthy-crunchy type which is fine but you should stop judging others who are not.




It's not "wrong" to make judgements. Everyone does it all the time. 

Personally I find it sad that people in CA think surgically enhanced lips and boobs are normal when so many look so bad. It's unnecessary a lot of the time IMO. But hey - not my body so whatever.

On the other hand there are many people and procedures that do help people. Nose jobs for those with big, broken, unusual proboscis - I've seen personalities change when an undesirable feature (in the mind of the person with the feature) is addressed

To each his own. If someone judges this harshly, that's fine too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

sokillme said:


> You criticized women for wearing makeup which is about 90% of most western women and a majority of men like that they do if we are honest.
> 
> This is judgemental and wrong. Some people find happiness in cars, some in education, some in looking nice.
> 
> Obviously for you appearance isn't important, I suspect form you name and avatar you are more of an earthy-crunchy type which is fine but you should stop judging others who are not.


You continue to put false words in my mouth. I did not criticize women for wearing makeup. I did point out that doing it to an obsessive level is mentally unhealthy. One can try to look nice without obsessing over imperceptible irregularities that no one else could ever see. 

Please refer again to my use of the word "only." One should be able to find happiness in self and deeds. The other, superficial things are augments, not the core. Cars are superficial. I make no judgment against anyone who's life is enhanced by a nice car--but if that's the only/primary source of their happiness, that's a problem. The core is most important. The accouterments are just that. 

Again--not a blanket statement here, just focused on those who go overboard. Like the difference between a woman watching her weight and one who is grossly underweight but still sees herself as fat. Obsessing over false impressions of ones self, or doing it strictly to please others, is unhealthy. 

And if you think I'm a "earthy-crunchy type," you haven't read, or at least registered any of my other posts are from the same guy. I am largely conservative (and often take heat for it as well).


----------



## Blondilocks

alexm said:


> Okay. Bit of a trap question, I admit, but:
> 
> Given the choice of two penises to play with (not have intercourse with), what would be more "fun" or exciting (visually appealing) to do so with? A below average sized penis, or one that is huge?
> 
> They're attached to the same awesome guy, and he'll get pleasure no matter what, *so the question is about you and your excitement/pleasure from simply touching and playing with it*.



Gotta admit, you seem a little hung up on this scenario. Are you envisioning dressing it up in doll clothes or decorating it like a Mr. Potatohead? 

Remember, a woman's mouth only opens so far so the oral component of 'play' will be limited. This is where the average or smaller sized man has the distinct advantage - more oral. Women who are into 'playing' with the penis will definitely be into oral.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Blondilocks said:


> Gotta admit, you seem a little hung up on this scenario. Are you envisioning dressing it up in doll clothes or *decorating it like a Mr. Potatohead?*
> 
> Remember, a woman's mouth only opens so far so the oral component of 'play' will be limited. This is where the average or smaller sized man has the distinct advantage - more oral. Women who are into 'playing' with the penis will definitely be into oral.


I am now. I have a pack of googly eyes around here somewhere...


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> 
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).


I go with this:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> @alexm
> 
> 
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).
> 
> 
> 
> I go with this:
Click to expand...

That's so funny that it would actually work on me! 

Yessir Zod, sir! How may I assist your penis? 

Lol!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Faithful Wife said:


> That's so funny that it would actually work on me!
> 
> Yessir Zod, sir! How may I assist your penis?
> 
> Lol!




If we're talking too long in bed I've had to point out that that **** isn't going to suck itself. Fortunately my w responds properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve1000

sokillme said:


> And yet there are a lot of marriages where people look at it and they don't brake up over it, they actually like it. You can say that but where is the empirical evidence? For some people it is an issue, for others not so much. Now if you are saying it's a sin then yes, but I don't think it always poisons a marriage.
> 
> Now if he told her he didn't want to have sex with her because she was a fat slob then I would say it's the same.


I'd actually rather be called a big fat slob by a long shot.  Big fat slobs can actually do something about it. 

Seriously, the only equivalent would be for a man to complain that his lover's vagina is too loose.


----------



## alexm

samyeagar said:


> And it tends to be the extremes that get talked about the most, especially in normal sex talk. Can't really picture the group of girlfriends talking 10 minutes about a boyfriend and his perfectly average penis, but hang him like a horse of a squirrel, and there's going to be hours of material there.
> 
> And there's the crux of the issue, and a variant of the issue I have had with my wife...People tend to be more outwardly expressive about things that matter to them, things they have strong feelings about, and more quiet about things they are just meh about...it is extremely difficult to reconcile the topic of conversation is actually the thing that doesn't matter, while the comparative silence is the thing that is better, or more important...if that makes any sense.


Disagree.

Like I just said above, a friend of ours was talking about her stbxh's 5 inches and how it was perfect - for her.

Women (if they're the type to discuss this sort of thing among themselves, and not all are) will talk about small or huge ones for the novelty factor - but that doesn't mean they want those.

"What am I supposed to do with that?" is a sentence that can be used for a small penis or a huge one.

And if you think about it, the sheer fact that small and huge ones may even be discussed in the first place is that they're both fairly rare.


----------



## samyeagar

Steve1000 said:


> I'd actually rather be called a big fat slob by a long shot.  Big fat slobs can actually do something about it.
> 
> Seriously, the only equivalent would be for a man to complain that his lover's vagina is too loose.


It's never the vaginas fault. If it seems too big and loose, it's because the penis is too small 

Also, not debating the pros and cons of surgery, but even here, surgically tightening a vagina is far more of Ann option than surgically making a penis a larger.


----------



## 23cm

The OP bailed out at post 38 and we're now up to 181. Fascinating discussion tho.


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. *There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny)*.


Trust me, I know _you_ know how to talk to a man! :grin2:

As you say, very few women see to have figured this out. Oddly enough, men (by and large) _have_. My wife does not have a 'perfect' body (whatever that is, I guess) but I tell her how much I like this or that - and I mean it.

What's funny is that, when I'm in the moment, some pretty dirty things can come out of my mouth, and my wife seems to react positively to it (or at least not negatively!) but then I almost immediately think "did I just say that? That's so not me!"

The bolded part, I understand. While my wife has never (and probably will never) directly comment on my penis, my prowess in bed, or anything of the sort, I can sort of coax it out of her while in the moment. "Do you like my big ****?" while I'm pounding away at her. "Yes, it feels so good" "You like it when I do that, baby?" "Yes, don't stop" - that sort of thing.

What would be nice, however, is for her to say something like that to me first, right? Even though it's genuine and in-the-moment, it still has to be coaxed out of her.


----------



## alexm

Blondilocks said:


> Gotta admit, you seem a little hung up on this scenario. Are you envisioning dressing it up in doll clothes or decorating it like a Mr. Potatohead?
> 
> Remember, a woman's mouth only opens so far so the oral component of 'play' will be limited. This is where the average or smaller sized man has the distinct advantage - more oral. Women who are into 'playing' with the penis will definitely be into oral.


I'm about as hung up about this subject as FW is, which is to say I'm on the positive side of things all around. Some of the male posters here have valid points, and FW's (and a few other female posters) have equally valid points.

You should know by now that I am generally interested in the overall topic of human sexuality, and not from a 'behind a computer screen pervy way'. I am also highly interested in human behaviour and sociology, and I really wish I knew I had such an interest in this field when I was entering university :crying:

As far as oral goes, I understand. I didn't actually say oral, though. I was trying to say, all other things equal, would most women not prefer a larger penis to play with and/or look at? FW, for example, answered in the affirmative.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Steve1000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd actually rather be called a big fat slob by a long shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big fat slobs can actually do something about it.
> 
> Seriously, the only equivalent would be for a man to complain that his lover's vagina is too loose.
> 
> 
> 
> It's never the vaginas fault. If it seems too big and loose, it's because the penis is too small
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, not debating the pros and cons of surgery, but even here, surgically tightening a vagina is far more of Ann option than surgically making a penis a larger.
Click to expand...

Some day there will be a safe effective surgery that makes a penis bigger.

When that day comes, my ex-h used to say that men will then end up blowing up the earth over it. It will cause such chaos that men will end up attaching rocket launchers to their ****s and then bombing everything in sight. Just to be the biggest swinging **** of all time.

But on a serious note...there really will be that surgery available someday. I made a post about this once and asked men if they'd do it if it was safe and effective. That was a fun penis thread.

As for vaginal tightening...I hadn't heard there is such a thing other than fixing tearing that happens during childbirth. I'm going to go look this up, because I don't see how this could be possible? Are you talking about just the opening? (which can by tightened by regular kegel exercises as long as there is not an injury such as post child birth or other trauma)


----------



## alexm

Steve1000 said:


> Seriously, the only equivalent would be for a man to complain that his lover's vagina is too loose.


And that's ironically, why we men shouldn't be so personally insulted by a woman insinuating that we're too small 

No, I'm too small for _you_.

It really does go both ways. I can't say it enough - I couldn't fully enter my ex wife. One woman I was with, we didn't even bother trying. My current wife, I can honestly say that I could be bigger (though it works perfectly fine). An average sized penis or below would not be ideal for her. So am I too small for my wife? Or too big for my ex wife? Same penis.

It's not, and never is, just the penis that is too small or too big. Never. Even with the extremes, there's a fit.


----------



## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. *There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny)*.
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, I know _you_ know how to talk to a man!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you say, very few women see to have figured this out. Oddly enough, men (by and large) _have_. My wife does not have a 'perfect' body (whatever that is, I guess) but I tell her how much I like this or that - and I mean it.
> 
> What's funny is that, when I'm in the moment, some pretty dirty things can come out of my mouth, and my wife seems to react positively to it (or at least not negatively!) but then I almost immediately think "did I just say that? That's so not me!"
> 
> The bolded part, I understand. While my wife has never (and probably will never) directly comment on my penis, my prowess in bed, or anything of the sort, I can sort of coax it out of her while in the moment. "Do you like my big ****?" while I'm pounding away at her. "Yes, it feels so good" "You like it when I do that, baby?" "Yes, don't stop" - that sort of thing.
> 
> What would be nice, however, is for her to say something like that to me first, right? Even though it's genuine and in-the-moment, it still has to be coaxed out of her.
Click to expand...

It's partially because I'm bisexual that I am able to emulate how men talk. I could write a book in great detail about how awesome boobs and pvssies are, and the rest of the female form, too. We don't have many readers here who would appreciate my lusty ponderings on this, so I don't bother. 

It's mostly due to my ex-h that I learned what kinds of words to use to describe how awesome a penis is. I had plenty of thoughts about why I loved his penis early on. But having no good example before knowing him of what words to use I just didn't know what to say. He had been with women who were extremely sexual and verbal before me and knew what it felt like to truly have his manhood admired, and that actually helped me understand that I had sexy sisters out there in the world who had already figured this out on their own. All I had to do was really think about what was happening within me when I contemplated why I loved his penis, and then describe those feelings. He coached me well along the way.

The more I thought about it, the more ways I realized I was fascinated with the amazing organ. It is not just the size of it that fascinates me. It is also the overall look of it, the shape, the color, the many different stages it goes through between soft and erect, the way the testicles move and shift and change shape with temperature changes, the way the whole system seems to operate and move around on its own accord, like it is a separate being making its own decisions.

Then I started reading more about male anatomy and how all this occurs. The fact that the testicles are outside of the body because sperm cannot live in the warmer temperatures of the man's body and needs to remain cooler...fascinating!! 

All of this helped me also understand how men are so fascinated with their own penis, having this amazing organ they have been able to study their whole lives.

So now I have plenty of words to use when I want to tell my man how much I love his penis. I talk about his specifically, as they are all different and different aspects to enjoy and praise.

At the same time...I do not talk about the random penis, like a blanket statement such as "I love c*ck". That isn't true. I don't love any and all of them. Some are quite unappealing to me and no random penis matters in the least to me.


----------



## Fozzy




----------



## Chuck71

I'm just waiting to see what SunCMars has to say


----------



## Idyit

Faithful Wife said:


> Some day there will be a safe effective surgery that makes a penis bigger.
> 
> When that day comes, my ex-h used to say that men will then end up blowing up the earth over it. It will cause such chaos that men will end up attaching rocket launchers to their ****s and then bombing everything in sight. Just to be the biggest swinging **** of all time.
> 
> But on a serious note...there really will be that surgery available someday. I made a post about this once and asked men if they'd do it if it was safe and effective. That was a fun penis thread.
> 
> *As for vaginal tightening...I hadn't heard there is such a thing other than fixing tearing that happens during childbirth. I'm going to go look this up, because I don't see how this could be possible? Are you talking about just the opening? (which can by tightened by regular kegel exercises as long as there is not an injury such as post child birth or other trauma)*


Yes there is a surgery to repair trauma and injury due to childbirth (most frequent reason). It is also performed due to other clinical sequelae and very rarely elective. I would post a link but it would likely get me banned. Look up anterior and posterior repair. Add "vaginal" if you don't get results. 

I've 'assisted' in this surgery many times and it's not for the faint of heart. However, it does a wonderful job of making the vaginal vault dang near virginal.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

WorkingWife said:


> Again - *Where are all these men who like small breasts????!!!!! *
> 
> It's true about the enhancement and since I always have that option, maybe I can't really put myself in the guy's shoes. But I used to feel very insecure/inadequate about my breasts size. (I've now learned it's actually average for a woman who is not overweight, so I've decided to be happy with them. At least they won't cause me back problems as I age. ;-)


 I'll raise my hand.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Regarding small breasts I will say that I think society (ironically given the huge number of breast augmentation surgeries performed each year) has really taken a turn in favor of the "athletic build" - which is typified by the flat stomach, lean and lightly muscular arms, and often is associated with a bigger butt and smaller breasts.

I know my DS19 definitely is interested in fit girls, and my girls are taking steps in that direction (running and working out)

The "huge" focus on booty these days is beyond me, but I do recognize it's "a thing"

So put on the sports bra and leggings or shorts and go with the trend! If you have to hit the gym a bit, at least that's something you can change 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm

TheTruthHurts said:


> Regarding small breasts I will say that I think society (ironically given the huge number of breast augmentation surgeries performed each year) has really taken a turn in favor of the "athletic build" - which is typified by the flat stomach, lean and lightly muscular arms, and often is associated with a bigger butt and smaller breasts.
> 
> I know my DS19 definitely is interested in fit girls, and my girls are taking steps in that direction (running and working out)
> 
> The "huge" focus on booty these days is beyond me, but I do recognize it's "a thing"
> 
> So put on the sports bra and leggings or shorts and go with the trend! If you have to hit the gym a bit, at least that's something you can change
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've always said it's cyclical. Women in the decades and generations before this one did not fit the current 'ideal'. In my relatively short life on this earth, I've seen the 'ideal' woman go from pencil-thin (Twiggy), to huge boobs, to "thick" to fit, to now, apparently, huge butts. Not necessarily in that order, but all of those have been described as the 'ideal' at one point or another in my life.

Whatever society tells us men to be attracted to, we tend to be attracted to. We're sheep, most of us.

And I can add, FWIW, the 'ideal' man has not really changed, like ever  At least as women, whatever shape or size you are, has been, or will be, "in style" at some point! Not only that, but there will always be many, many men who specifically are attracted to whatever _you_ are. There are not a lot, if any, women out there who specifically get horny over the 5'7" guys with a bit of a midsection and some body hair. But a woman with small boobs and a big booty, and maybe a little bit of a midsection? Oh yeah, you bet there's 1000 guys who truly want that


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## TheTruthHurts

alexm said:


> I've always said it's cyclical. Women in the decades and generations before this one did not fit the current 'ideal'. In my relatively short life on this earth, I've seen the 'ideal' woman go from pencil-thin (Twiggy), to huge boobs, to "thick" to fit, to now, apparently, huge butts. Not necessarily in that order, but all of those have been described as the 'ideal' at one point or another in my life.
> 
> Whatever society tells us men to be attracted to, we tend to be attracted to. We're sheep, most of us.
> 
> And I can add, FWIW, the 'ideal' man has not really changed, like ever  At least as women, whatever shape or size you are, has been, or will be, "in style" at some point! Not only that, but there will always be many, many men who specifically are attracted to whatever _you_ are. There are not a lot, if any, women out there who specifically get horny over the 5'7" guys with a bit of a midsection and some body hair. But a woman with small boobs and a big booty, and maybe a little bit of a midsection? Oh yeah, you bet there's 1000 guys who truly want that




Actually there's 1000s of women after that guy you described too, assuming he had some winning qualities.

I think that's the point with the "fit" attraction - it's the assumed personal characteristics - gumption, sportiness, athleticism, passion - that trigger the attraction.

If you're 5'7" guy has a confident smile, decent shoes, and appears to have his **** together, he'll be very attractive to many people.

I, for one, am amazingly overconfident - if you assume my extra 80 lbs and modest stature (5'8") should make me self confident. They don't - and people respond to me the way I see myself - as someone whose weight doesn't even factor in since I work out and happen to really enjoy eating and drinking too 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm

TheTruthHurts said:


> Actually there's 1000s of women after that guy you described too, assuming he had some winning qualities.
> 
> I think that's the point with the "fit" attraction - it's the assumed personal characteristics - gumption, sportiness, athleticism, passion - that trigger the attraction.
> 
> If you're 5'7" guy has a confident smile, decent shoes, and appears to have his **** together, he'll be very attractive to many people.
> 
> I, for one, am amazingly overconfident - if you assume my extra 80 lbs and modest stature (5'8") should make me self confident. They don't - and people respond to me the way I see myself - as someone whose weight doesn't even factor in since I work out and happen to really enjoy eating and drinking too
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely correct, however we're talking about the initial attraction, the head-turn, the interest in wanting to engage in a conversation with someone in the first place - and ultimately the physical/sexual attraction afterwards. We're talking the guy/girl that people look at, fantasize about, etc.


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## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).


Cannot like this enough. SO true.

My wife has SLOWLY gotten better over our 15 years of marriage. Slowly.
For the longest time I wouldnt have been able to answer what her favorite part of me was. What she found sexy. Yes she did a little bit of the obligatory nice penis talk. But not the best. Didnt stress it like you mentioned.

Could have used your blog to show her years ago.


----------



## samyeagar

Middle of Everything said:


> Cannot like this enough. SO true.
> 
> My wife has SLOWLY gotten better over our 15 years of marriage. Slowly.
> For the longest time I wouldnt have been able to answer what her favorite part of me was. What she found sexy. Yes she did a little bit of the obligatory nice penis talk. But not the best. Didnt stress it like you mentioned.
> 
> Could have used your blog to show her years ago.


Yeah, numerous conversations and trying different things, I still couldn't tell you what my wife's favorite part of me is, or anything I wear, say or do that she finds sexy about me so I've just given up trying to figure it out. Occam's Razor suggests that there simply isn't anything. On the plus side, I don't think there is anything that specifically repulses her either.


----------



## Middle of Everything

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, numerous conversations and trying different things, I still couldn't tell you what my wife's favorite part of me is, or anything I wear, say or do that she finds sexy about me so I've just given up trying to figure it out. Occam's Razor suggests that there simply isn't anything. On the plus side, I don't think there is anything that specifically repulses her either.


I hear ya. Doesnt do a lot for the old ego does it?
Though I will say I think my wife has improved. Hope you can eventually enjoy some improvement in that area as well.


----------



## samyeagar

Middle of Everything said:


> I hear ya. Doesnt do a lot for the old ego does it?
> Though I will say I think my wife has improved. Hope you can eventually enjoy some improvement in that area as well.


One of the easiest ways to guard the ego is to simply become indifferent towards what would be otherwise damaging. The unfortunate side affect is becoming indifferent towards other things as well. We do still have relatively frequent sex, and it is always good, but for me, it lacks the wow factor that it once had. It has lost its urgency, and I rarely feel those I have to have her NOW kind of feelings.


----------



## alexm

samyeagar said:


> One of the easiest ways to guard the ego is to simply become indifferent towards what would be otherwise damaging. The unfortunate side affect is becoming indifferent towards other things as well. We do still have relatively frequent sex, and it is always good, but for me, it lacks the wow factor that it once had. It has lost its urgency, and I rarely feel those I have to have her NOW kind of feelings.


I feel the exact same way, and honestly, it sucks. I want to want my wife, and there's no reason I shouldn't. She's beautiful, has a great curvy body - all of that. But the mental side of the attraction just isn't there for me anymore. It's to the point where I'm almost exactly like her, in that I'm not excited before sex anymore. During, yes - we both are. But there's no sexual tension prior to anything. Nothing to keep any excitement going on any given day. I look at her naked now, and it does nothing. Not because she's not hot (she is), but because she's managed to remove anything and everything sexual about our daily lives.

Back in the day, if I saw her naked for example, I'd react appropriately, with admiration, lust, excitement, whatever. But she'd never react 'appropriately'. Rarely rudely or anything like that, but certainly not in any way that would acknowledge my excitement or interest. It's hard to explain, but for example, if I told her "oh baby, you look so hot right now" she might respond with an overly-exuberant, fake-sounding "thanks!" and then just continue to get dressed.

Attempting to 'take' her would sometimes work, but in the absence of any real back-and-forth banter or expression of sexual excitement (particularly towards me) it often felt empty. 

Now, I know my wife is slightly different than the wives being talked about above. Mine just doesn't have sexual attraction towards anybody, never mind me, so it softens the blow somewhat. So at the very least, I know it's a universal feeling on her part. But the end result is still very similar, in that there's simply no passion for me in that way. That severely lessens my interest in having sex with her. With my ex wife, I knew that I was literally a tool for her, in the absence of somebody she actually found sexually attractive. But the irony is that there was a passion there for sex. I knew that she wanted sex, even needed sex. So the actual act meant _something_. As it is right now, it doesn't. There's no urgency or need for it.

When my wife and I have sex, it's not simply going through the motions. It's not robotic. But at the same time, there's no abandon on her part. It's hard to explain. She knows how she likes to get off best, and we'll do it that way. It's not the same every time. She's multi-multi-orgasmic, but she also doesn't care about that. My ex wife, by contrast, if she 'needed' it, she'd take charge, put me where she wanted me to be, and either enjoyed the ride, or rode me herself til she was done. It _was_ reckless and she was unapologetic about it.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> @alexm
> 
> I actually feel women should be far more vocal and complimentary about their men and I do write about this here at TAM, as well as talk about it IRL to other women. It's been a slow process but I have made a bit of an impact on some women I've known personally.
> 
> I don't know why it is exactly, but many women don't seem to know how to or want to verbalize their attraction for their man. It is odd to me but since I don't understand the cause of the reluctance I try to just ignore it and push for it anyway.
> 
> When I had my blog, I had more than one article about how to properly worship a man's body...what to say to him, how to make sure he felt attractive to you, and wrote specifically about how to express love and desire for his penis.
> 
> I advocate for this because I feel women should understand that their men deserve to be admired and lusted after and men love this when it happens. It's only natural to want to hear about how and why your woman desires you. Being that most women don't seem to do this very often, I'm just trying to mention it where and when I can make an impact.
> 
> I have mentioned this at TAM in various ways over the years and some women literally bristle at the thought of it. Again I don't know why...but I push for it anyway. It's just something a lot of women don't consider until it is brought up. And even if they bristled at first, some women have later told me that they did start being more vocal about it later and then realized how much it made her man happy.
> 
> I have also suggested to men that the tell their woman they want to hear more compliments in general but also about his manhood specifically. There is a way a man can say this that is sexy and direct and makes a woman understand why she should do it. (But this isn't usually how men say it and unfortunately they end up sounding whiny).


Not to thread-jack but this thing has changed lanes anyway.
@Faithful Wife, not to make any work for you but do you happen to have any of those articles from your blog on helping wives archived? Something you could share here? Think there are a few of us that could benefit from them. Thanks in advance if you do.


----------



## TX-SC

Faithful Wife said:


> The first bolded is simply another way of saying "men's penis insecurity is more painful than women's insecurity about anything, because I say so based on these parameters that I have decided are thus and so".
> 
> The second bolded....This is the very double standard I'm talking about. I was talking in part about real women I actually know in person who have been told such things directly by men. Also women whose bodies were so not-his-preference that he couldn't get an erection for her. Also women who were cheated on when they were pregnant because according to their husbands, they couldn't get turned on "by that shape". These women are not imagining things, they are not "a few random posters", they are not "hysterically insecure". They have had their self esteem crushed by a specific man's words or actions that directly had to do with how they were deemed unfkable by said man.
> 
> But when I talk about this, it is immediately assumed I am talking about random, hypothetical or internet women and that my point has no relevance. Somehow the crushing things men say to women are supposed to be a "non event".
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you said so, because you, like a lot of men, honestly think that penis insecurity is more painful than any type of insecurity a woman might experience.
> 
> Your rationalization for this is nonsense. It is a double standard, and men and women both get hurt and get insecure and one is not worse than the other.


I'm not sure what's scarier, that you have so many friends who this has happened to, or that they all felt the need to tell you about it. So, how does that happen? 

"FW, it was embarrassing! He couldn't get it up because he said my vulva looks wrong!" Do women really discuss these things? I can honestly say I have NEVER, EVER discussed a male friend's sexual parts or experiences with him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The first bolded is simply another way of saying "men's penis insecurity is more painful than women's insecurity about anything, because I say so based on these parameters that I have decided are thus and so".
> 
> The second bolded....This is the very double standard I'm talking about. I was talking in part about real women I actually know in person who have been told such things directly by men. Also women whose bodies were so not-his-preference that he couldn't get an erection for her. Also women who were cheated on when they were pregnant because according to their husbands, they couldn't get turned on "by that shape". These women are not imagining things, they are not "a few random posters", they are not "hysterically insecure". They have had their self esteem crushed by a specific man's words or actions that directly had to do with how they were deemed unfkable by said man.
> 
> But when I talk about this, it is immediately assumed I am talking about random, hypothetical or internet women and that my point has no relevance. Somehow the crushing things men say to women are supposed to be a "non event".
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you said so, because you, like a lot of men, honestly think that penis insecurity is more painful than any type of insecurity a woman might experience.
> 
> Your rationalization for this is nonsense. It is a double standard, and men and women both get hurt and get insecure and one is not worse than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what's scarier, that you have so many friends who this has happened to, or that they all felt the need to tell you about it. So, how does that happen?
> 
> "FW, it was embarrassing! He couldn't get it up because he said my vulva looks wrong!" Do women really discuss these things? I can honestly say I have NEVER, EVER discussed a male friend's sexual parts or experiences with him.
Click to expand...

I am a very sexual person and so are many of my friends. Those who are, I've talked to about their sex lives and in many cases were their friend during one or more relationships. I've heard tell of every type of rejection possible, by all types of people. So yes, I've heard so many women's stories of rejection for every part of their body. Or sometimes there's no specific body part that is rejected and the guy may sincerely be attracted to a woman, but something just doesn't feel right and he can't get it up for her and so he ends things. 

Maybe these guys just said hurtful things on their way out the door. But yes, I've heard women say they've heard my pvssy isn't good enough/tight enough, boobs not big/firm/small enough, legs/waist too big, etc. Usually the guy actually said these things before the actual end...small complaints tossed in here or there. There are threads like this by women right here at TAM.

But I have not heard any woman in person tell of ending a relationship strictly because of a size or general penis issue. I can't recall reading any online either.

I have heard both men and women talk about ending things if the sex in general was bad, though.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@Faithful Wife and @TX-SC what's interesting about TAM is the diversity of people. It's amazing what is similar (cheater's script) and what is dissimilar (sexual attitudes, hookup mentality, comfort with even talking about sex).

I think the dissimilar aspects are VERY dissimilar - almost like exclusive cultural, economic, religious subcultures.

How would you describe yourselves in whatever terms you think have bearing on your views on sex (economic group, geographic location, urban/rural, religion, hourly/professional/???, etc)

I'd be curious to see what correlations exist here.

I'm huge city suburban, professional, upper income (low upper), moderately religious, conservative suburb. In my 50+ years here I've had very little sex talk with guys except when young and just making sexual jokes. No real discussion (except with my kids). Occasional bro-to-bro eyebrow raise when an attractive girl/woman walks by (most guys look and when catching each other looking give the "yeah I saw that too" nod).

For the reason I think OP will have to help her h get past this because if it were me, I wouldn't have anyone outside the marriage I'd feel comfortable talking about this with.

What about you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> I am a very sexual person and so are many of my friends. Those who are, I've talked to about their sex lives and in many cases were their friend during one or more relationships. I've heard tell of every type of rejection possible, by all types of people. So yes, I've heard so many women's stories of rejection for every part of their body. Or sometimes there's no specific body part that is rejected and the guy may sincerely be attracted to a woman, but something just doesn't feel right and he can't get it up for her and so he ends things.
> 
> Maybe these guys just said hurtful things on their way out the door. But yes, I've heard women say they've heard my pvssy isn't good enough/tight enough, boobs not big/firm/small enough, legs/waist too big, etc. Usually the guy actually said these things before the actual end...small complaints tossed in here or there. There are threads like this by women right here at TAM.
> 
> But I have not heard any woman in person tell of ending a relationship strictly because of a size or general penis issue. I can't recall reading any online either.
> 
> I have heard both men and women talk about ending things if the sex in general was bad, though.


Just postulating here..don't have any idea if this is actually the case...but here goes some crazy amateur psychology....

If a woman was to split because her partner was inadequately equipped (as seldom as that may actually be the case), she probably wouldn't tell him why...it'd probably be the old "It's not you, it's me" line or something equivalent. 
That being the case, any guy who's insecure about the size of his endowment (and it appears there are many) will naturally jump to his greatest fear as the reason. 
Now here's the hypothesis..
This lets the guy off the hook for really reflecting on why she left him. He doesn't have to face the possibility that maybe he was an unattractive slacker, that he didn't make the effort to treat her right, that he had bad hygiene, that he was socially awkward, that he dressed like a slob, that he was too interested in his video games/porn/alcohol/golf or whatever.

No, by assuming it's a P size issue, he's completely off the hook for needing to take any kind of action to improve himself or make himself a better partner... plus, as a bonus, he gets to put the blame on her for being "shallow" or loose or some other denigrating term.


----------



## TX-SC

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Faithful Wife and @TX-SC what's interesting about TAM is the diversity of people. It's amazing what is similar (cheater's script) and what is dissimilar (sexual attitudes, hookup mentality, comfort with even talking about sex).
> 
> I think the dissimilar aspects are VERY dissimilar - almost like exclusive cultural, economic, religious subcultures.
> 
> How would you describe yourselves in whatever terms you think have bearing on your views on sex (economic group, geographic location, urban/rural, religion, hourly/professional/???, etc)
> 
> I'd be curious to see what correlations exist here.
> 
> I'm huge city suburban, professional, upper income (low upper), moderately religious, conservative suburb. In my 50+ years here I've had very little sex talk with guys except when young and just making sexual jokes. No real discussion (except with my kids). Occasional bro-to-bro eyebrow raise when an attractive girl/woman walks by (most guys look and when catching each other looking give the "yeah I saw that too" nod).
> 
> For the reason I think OP will have to help her h get past this because if it were me, I wouldn't have anyone outside the marriage I'd feel comfortable talking about this with.
> 
> What about you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I grew up in a small town in SC and now live in a small town in TX. I have lived for a year or two in several large southern cities, but all of my life has been spent in the southern US. I am an independant and don't vote specifically for any party. I am Christian, but I don't go to church. I try not to judge other people or force my opinion on them. I have a graduate degree and consider myself well educated. 

I am monogamous to a fault. When I am in love, I only have eyes for that person. I am very effectionate and I tell my wife often how beautiful and sexy she is. I also love how smart she is. I love sex and I love to make my wife feel good. 

With that being said, I am more adventurous than my wife, but I have no desire to bring another man or woman into my relationship in any way. I've often said that I'd love to have had a threesome, but it would have had to have been with two random women, because I would not share my partner's affection with anyone. 

While growing up, my GFs generally didn't "put out" immediately. Most required dating for a month or two. I have had several ONSs and just don't find them nearly as stimulating as sex while in love. 

I realize women tend to discuss their sex life more than men, but I don't see me ever telling some friend of mine about my wife's (or GF's before marriage) vulva or any other part of her. I don't want them even visualizing what she might look like naked! I also don't tell my friends about my penis and I sure as hell don't want to hear about theirs. I can see that conversation now... 

"Can we talk about something?" 

"Sure" 

"I am having erection issues and don't know what to do" 

"Damn man, go to the doctor! And keep that **** away from me! It might be catching!" 

-or-

"That sucks. You need me to come take care of your wife?"


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Faithful Wife and @TX-SC what's interesting about TAM is the diversity of people. It's amazing what is similar (cheater's script) and what is dissimilar (sexual attitudes, hookup mentality, comfort with even talking about sex).
> 
> I think the dissimilar aspects are VERY dissimilar - almost like exclusive cultural, economic, religious subcultures.
> 
> How would you describe yourselves in whatever terms you think have bearing on your views on sex (economic group, geographic location, urban/rural, religion, hourly/professional/???, etc)
> 
> I'd be curious to see what correlations exist here.
> 
> I'm huge city suburban, professional, upper income (low upper), moderately religious, conservative suburb. In my 50+ years here I've had very little sex talk with guys except when young and just making sexual jokes. No real discussion (except with my kids). Occasional bro-to-bro eyebrow raise when an attractive girl/woman walks by (most guys look and when catching each other looking give the "yeah I saw that too" nod).
> 
> For the reason I think OP will have to help her h get past this because if it were me, I wouldn't have anyone outside the marriage I'd feel comfortable talking about this with.
> 
> What about you?


The OP hasn't been back, and I honestly don't know what to tell her about the specific situation she is in...I would have had to get more info from her before she left.

As for correlations....I live in an extremely liberal area, where being sex positive is what it's all about, among young people especially but even the older ones are much freer here than elsewhere (from my observations).

My close girlfriends over the years have been liberal in most ways, highly sexual of their own accord (not to be confused with promiscuous), and open to discussion about sex and sexuality with me and our other friends. A lot of guys friends fall into this camp, too and I've discussed the sex lives of them and others with them at different times over the years. A lot of this simply has to do with me and my curiosity, because I will open the discussion to this point and am a safe person to talk to, so then they spill all kinds of details.

It's all part of my personal exploration and study of human sexuality. This plus reading about sex and people's sex lives online for many years.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Just postulating here..don't have any idea if this is actually the case...but here goes some crazy amateur psychology....
> 
> If a woman was to split because her partner was inadequately equipped (as seldom as that may actually be the case), she probably wouldn't tell him why...it'd probably be the old "It's not you, it's me" line or something equivalent.
> That being the case, any guy who's insecure about the size of his endowment (and it appears there are many) will naturally jump to his greatest fear as the reason.
> Now here's the hypothesis..
> This lets the guy off the hook for really reflecting on why she left him. He doesn't have to face the possibility that maybe he was an unattractive slacker, that he didn't make the effort to treat her right, that he had bad hygiene, that he was socially awkward, that he dressed like a slob, that he was too interested in his video games/porn/alcohol/golf or whatever.
> 
> No, by assuming it's a P size issue, he's completely off the hook for needing to take any kind of action to improve himself or make himself a better partner... plus, as a bonus, he gets to put the blame on her for being "shallow" or loose or some other denigrating term.


Yes this could certainly be the case.

In the post of mine that you quoted, I was getting at the fact that if a female friend had ever actually ended things over a size or general penis issue, they would have definitely told me this, just like they told me all the other actual reasons they had ended things or how and why men ended things with them (at least as far as what they were told by these guys).

The point being that even though the size issue seems to strike fear and insecurity into almost every man, I have not heard first hand ANY woman tell of ending things for that reason. Nor even read a story about that online where people are anonymous.

So where exactly is all that insecurity coming from?

I did read an article once that postulated that men are experiencing body dysmorphia about their peens due to watching porn. Because doctors and health workers are hearing this "fear" coming from so many men and because apparently sometimes they themselves are saying "well you see guys in porn so you get to have an idea of what others look like, and mine doesn't stack up". And apparently informing men that the sample sizes they are viewing is not within the normal range doesn't fix the dysmorphia.

All I can say to that is, sorry guys, if you are going to get all insecure because you are watching porn, then maybe you shouldn't watch it.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes this could certainly be the case.
> 
> In the post of mine that you quoted, I was getting at the fact that if a female friend had ever actually ended things over a size or general penis issue, they would have definitely told me this, just like they told me all the other actual reasons they had ended things or how and why men ended things with them (at least as far as what they were told by these guys).
> 
> The point being that even though the size issue seems to strike fear and insecurity into almost every man, I have not heard first hand ANY woman tell of ending things for that reason. Nor even read a story about that online where people are anonymous.
> 
> So where exactly is all that insecurity coming from?
> 
> I did read an article once that postulated that men are experiencing body dysmorphia about their peens due to watching porn. Because doctors and health workers are hearing this "fear" coming from so many men and because apparently sometimes they themselves are saying "well you see guys in porn so you get to have an idea of what others look like, and mine doesn't stack up". And apparently informing men that the sample sizes they are viewing is not within the normal range doesn't fix the dysmorphia.
> 
> All I can say to that is, sorry guys, if you are going to get all insecure because you are watching porn, then maybe you shouldn't watch it.


No, it's not new because of porn.

I was just watching a Frank Sinatra biography and someone was telling a story about Frank and the boys sitting around the poker table talking about who had the biggest penis.

Sinatra claimed to be the biggest and offered to prove it.

George Burns walked by and said "Frank, do the boys a favor and only take out enough to win"


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> No, it's not new because of porn.
> 
> I was just watching a Frank Sinatra biography and someone was telling a story about Frank and the boys sitting around the poker table talking about who had the biggest penis.
> 
> Sinatra claimed to be the biggest and offered to prove it.
> 
> George Burns walked by and said "Frank, do the boys a favor and only take out enough to win"


Indeed. It often starts in the junior high school locker room as the early bloomers berate and belittle the rest.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

...and oh, by the way, I've heard plenty of women lay out rather crude talk about P size. I've been out with women (in a group setting, not a date) when they've had plenty of size banter, and ogled crotches, commenting on how they envisioned the package contained within.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ...and oh, by the way, I've heard plenty of women lay out rather crude talk about P size. I've been out with women (in a group setting, not a date) when they've had plenty of size banter, and ogled crotches, commenting on how they envisioned the package contained within.


Yes, of course my friends and I do this, that's just typical girl talk in my circles.

Again....what I have NOT heard is any woman specifically say she ended a relationship because of a guy's small size.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> No, it's not new because of porn.
> 
> I was just watching a Frank Sinatra biography and someone was telling a story about Frank and the boys sitting around the poker table talking about who had the biggest penis.
> 
> Sinatra claimed to be the biggest and offered to prove it.
> 
> George Burns walked by and said "Frank, do the boys a favor and only take out enough to win"


Typical chest thumping and bantering is not the same thing as body dysmorphia.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, of course my friends and I do this, that's just typical girl talk in my circles.
> 
> Again....what I have NOT heard is any woman specifically say she ended a relationship because of a guy's small size.


Still, when that is standard girl talk, it weakens the position that what a guys packing isn't important.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Still, when that is standard girl talk, it weakens the position that what a guys packing isn't important.


You must not understand me if you think *I* am saying it isn't important. I'm the first one in line to say it *IS* important (to me, though I know I do not speak for all women). 

But since I and women like me do think it is important and yes we do discuss it in detail....yet none of us have ever been heard to say "yeah his **** just didn't work for me because too small"....then how do you make the leap from "it matters" to "most men have every reason to be fearful and insecure that their penis is too small".

I know that is not exactly what you said but the way I'm reading you, it is implied.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Typical chest thumping and bantering is not the same thing as body dysmorphia.


Amusing anecdote.

When I was a mere Captain in the USAF, my Colonel was out one day any he directed me to sit in for him in the General's staff meeting.

Around the table was the General, five full Colonels, and l'il ol' me.

This was as the time when cell phones were going from being giant, heavy things to compact flip phones. One of the Colonels whopped out his newly downsized phones to show it to the others. Another colonel replied that that was nothing, and proudly pulled out his even smaller one. 

One of the Colonels was a woman, who calmly announced "Lordy, Lordy, I never thought I'd live to see the day a bunch of men would sit around bragging about who's got the smallest equipment!"

Yeah, she could hold her own in the boy's club.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> You must not understand me if you think *I* am saying it isn't important. I'm the first one in line to say it *IS* important (to me, though I know I do not speak for all women).
> 
> But since I and women like me do think it is important and yes we do discuss it in detail....yet none of us have ever been heard to say "yeah his **** just didn't work for me because too small"....then how do you make the leap from "it matters" to "most men have every reason to be fearful and insecure that their penis is too small".
> 
> I know that is not exactly what you said but the way I'm reading you, it is implied.


I never accept living in fear about anything, so no, I would never make that leap.

That said, The mere fact that "it matters" will make people self conscious. And even if she doesn't leave him because of it, this plants the seed that she may have "settled" here, which can also be crushing. She may settle for his bald head and that's okay. or his beer belly or his limited earning potential and that won't bother him, but if he's been given any reason to believe she settled for an undersized wang, that's devastating!

No. It doesn't make sense. Men largely do this to themselves. The allow so much of their self worth to be wrapped up in that thin dangling from their crotch, that they create their own little hell, and in the process often forget to tend to the often more important things which they can control. And to each other (as previously noted, locker rooms can be vicious).

But it is important and we know it, do that's always there.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must not understand me if you think *I* am saying it isn't important. I'm the first one in line to say it *IS* important (to me, though I know I do not speak for all women).
> 
> But since I and women like me do think it is important and yes we do discuss it in detail....yet none of us have ever been heard to say "yeah his **** just didn't work for me because too small"....then how do you make the leap from "it matters" to "most men have every reason to be fearful and insecure that their penis is too small".
> 
> I know that is not exactly what you said but the way I'm reading you, it is implied.
> 
> 
> 
> I never accept living in fear about anything, so no, I would never make that leap.
> 
> That said, The mere fact that "it matters" will make people self conscious. And even if she doesn't leave him because of it, this plants the seed that she may have "settled" here, which can also be crushing. She may settle for his bald head and that's okay. or his beer belly or his limited earning potential and that won't bother him, but if he's been given any reason to believe she settled for an undersized wang, that's devastating!
> 
> No. It doesn't make sense. Men largely do this to themselves. The allow so much of their self worth to be wrapped up in that thin dangling from their crotch, that they create their own little hell, and in the process often forget to tend to the often more important things which they can control. And to each other (as previously noted, locker rooms can be vicious).
> 
> But it is important and we know it, do that's always there.
Click to expand...

And some men who have a perfect penis will be insecure about something else, money, height, her ex, etc.

And women everywhere are insecure about lots of things.

My point in the posts I've been making is that penis insecurity shouldn't be considered "more painful" than any other type of insecurity that anyone else feels. Yet there is a cultural understanding that men will and do coddle this insecurity in each other. I just think it's time people accept themselves and get over it. But if they can't ... and sometimes people can't get over certain insecurities because someone was horrific to them at some point in time... then at least let's stop making penis insecurity something more relevant than it should be. 

Men should get used to women having preferences and not get peen hurt about it. Just accept that this is the case and then determine how it affects you individually and move on from there. When men keep reinforcing that penis insecurity should be coddled, above and beyond every other type of insecurity in men and women, it just perpetuates the problem. 

Penis insecurity is a problem that men face, I get that part. I'm not saying it's just going to disappear. But I am saying that when men act toward other men like "aw poor schlep, his dong is small" it just makes a problem out of nothing. Some men who are smaller are preferred by women who have specific needs and desires. Men need to be aware of this and stop spreading the insecurity and coddling it.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

As an add, I'll postulate that its probably a good thing more men don't know more about what women say amongst themselves:surprise:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As an add, I'll postulate that its probably a good thing more men don't know more about what women say amongst themselves


It has helped me to know what some men say about women.

Common things that have helped me:

We fantasize about your sister and friends.

We will never want just one woman no matter how hot she is.

Conversely, we could get a boner for nearly any woman if she is within a certain HWP ratio.

So no woman is ever special enough to rule a man's sexual desires completely.

This is good information to have because it is relevant and true.

Men need to understand the same.

Women will always get chick wood for hunks.

Deal with it, brothers! To some woman (if not many) you are the hunk!


----------



## TX-SC

So, @Faithful Wife do you guys discuss the size of a new BF's package with each other? I mean, something like "So, that new guy Rob, how big is it? Is he hung?" 

The reason I ask is that guys DON'T generally do similar. I've never asked or been asked by a friend how my GF's/wife's vulva looks, feels, etc. I would think that by doing so, you are placing a lot of emphasis on that particular part of the man?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> It has helped me to know what some men say about women.
> 
> Common things that have helped me:
> 
> We fantasize about your sister and friends.
> 
> We will never want just one woman no matter how hot she is.
> 
> Conversely, we could get a boner for nearly any woman if she is within a certain HWP ratio.
> 
> So no woman is ever special enough to rule a man's sexual desires completely.
> 
> This is good information to have because it is relevant and true.
> 
> Men need to understand the same.
> 
> Women will always get chick wood for hunks.
> 
> Deal with it, brothers! To some woman (if not many) you are the hunk!


All I can say here is these men do not speak for me.


----------



## TX-SC

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> All I can say here is these men do not speak for me.


Agreed. None of this applies to me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> So, @Faithful Wife do you guys discuss the size of a new BF's package with each other? I mean, something like "So, that new guy Rob, how big is it? Is he hung?"
> 
> The reason I ask is that guys DON'T generally do similar. I've never asked or been asked by a friend how my GF's/wife's vulva looks, feels, etc. I would think that by doing so, you are placing a lot of emphasis on that particular part of the man?


Some do, some don't. I know which of my friends will want to talk about it and which ones don't. The ones who do are happy to give a report. The ones who don't may mention something somewhere down the line but they won't elaborate much on it.

The ones who do want to talk...we talk about more than just what it looks like or how big it is. We talk about how good the sex was or wasn't, talk about if things flowed naturally or not, if there was good chemistry, if he was a good kisser, what kind of things is he into and are they compatible. We discuss if he or she are kinky or not, and how far it goes if they are.

I have a sister and we spill all to each other, which helps us a lot, especially as we encounter new things we aren't sure how to handle. For example she and her new guy have just now reached the stage where they are discussing porn. He is an avid user and she has never encountered this before. She and I had several talks about the topic as she sorted out her feelings about it and now she is about to have some more direct discussions with him about porn.

She and I have never gone into much detail about peens, but other friends do. I have a couple of single friends who are really focused on the penis and only date eggplants. I've gotten to see a few incredible pictures men have sent these friends. It's not my preference but I sure like to look at the pictures and I love hearing their stories. The badder the story the better.

A side note...I have some lesbian friends and some of them are happy to give detailed reports too...some aren't. The ones who do will describe boobs, vulva, labia, etc in fine detail.

I have one friend who never says anything and I know this is because she really doesn't know how to enjoy sex that much and she feels awkward discussing it, so I never bring it up to her either. A few other friends who may just give a wink and a nod but no details. These are the minority and most of my friends are sharing details with me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say here is these men do not speak for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. None of this applies to me.
Click to expand...

Ok that's good to know.

However as there are men saying these kinds of things every where, and there are even articles written to help women understand these "facts" because the general attitude is "get over it girls, no man will ever desire just you"....then it renders a man like you as such a small minority that we can't really take your position seriously. Most men do theses things mentioned above and may try to hide it from their woman but they are certainly still lusting after other women in their minds.

If we even mention this at TAM several men will come in to tell us it is ridiculous and insecure behavior of women and that they are trying to police the thoughts of men.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

TX-SC said:


> Agreed. None of this applies to me.




Count me in this majority of men.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

http://www.yourtango.com/experts/co...ns-men-check-out-other-women-how-to-handle-it

This is just one of hundreds of similar articles that tell women that they should just get used to it because all men will always notice other women and have fantasies about them.

This article tries to be kind about things and doesn't mention how a lot of men will always be checking out your sisters and your friends.

Note how the article encourages women to NEVER appear insecure about this. We are supposed to not only accept it but also not let it affect our feelings about ourselves or what it means to our relationships.

Meanwhile....we are supposed to coddle men's penis insecurities and we should never ever notice or seek to look at another man's junk, because that would be a horrible thing to do.

No, we are supposed to just be ok with our men having a roving eye because "science says all men do this" yet we are not supposed to look or notice because "science says we are just concerned with having husbands and babies".

This article did at least mention at the very end that women look too, so that was nice of them. 

As the younger generations take over, it will become obvious that women look and fantasize and have preferences too because these younger women are throwing off the shackles of being expected to accept such a bull crap double standard. Also these young women watch porn and enjoy it and are not ashamed of their desires. 

It is all leveling out like it should. Finally.


----------



## Idyit

@Faithful Wife

The standard you described for men is that they:
*Fantasize about your sister and friends.* 
- Nope I don't and haven't fantasized about my wifes friends, ever. And I would not fvck my SIL with Rocky Mountain Yeti's ****.

*We will never want just one woman no matter how hot she is.*
This defines the determining factor as 'how hot she is'. And I don't really know what you mean by 'just one woman'. Is this a reference to 3 some etc..? Or is it about cheating, more fantasizing as stated above.? Either way it's gigantic leap to state this as fact.

*Conversely, we could get a boner for nearly any woman if she is within a certain HWP ratio.*
What?? You are jumping sharks here. And I don't remember semi-spontaneous wood since I was 18 or so. (Maybe thats the demographic of the article???)

*So no woman is ever special enough to rule a man's sexual desires completely.*
Said who?? Are we to believe that because you read an article or many that this is the standard and that our actual experience is minority or irrelevant.?
*
This is good information to have because it is relevant and true.*
Relevant?? Maybe to bolster an argument or justify a position. True?? Says who, the Cosmopolitan type website that posted the article?

You seem different FW. I've know you to state opinion or fact correctly but this doesn't match. So much reach and dismissive. It's ok if your group of friends has some who talk about and check out penis. And it's a valid statement of fact, for you. It's also valid that men, maybe many or even a majority do not fall into the 'fact' bullets above.

I really do like your input on such threads. ...and I don't want to (naughty word that Elle will ding me for) you. 

:grin2:


----------



## snerg

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok that's good to know.
> 
> However as there are men saying these kinds of things every where, and there are even articles written to help women understand these "facts" because the general attitude is "get over it girls, no man will ever desire just you"....then it renders a man like you as such a small minority that we can't really take your position seriously. *Most men do theses things mentioned above and may try to hide it from their woman but they are certainly still lusting after other women in their minds.*
> 
> If we even mention this at TAM several men will come in to tell us it is ridiculous and insecure behavior of women and that they are trying to police the thoughts of men.


That is quite the broad paint brush you are using to describe *most* men.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok for the men who are feeling that I've misinterpreted what some men say and think I may believe it applies to more men than it actually does, I'll come back later and try to find some more links and even some from TAM that are the reason I have come my opinion on this subject.

I also want to say that it is highly likely that more refined, evolved, and loving men are drawn to be here at TAM. I do believe each of you saying that you don't do these things, and it is heartwarming and respectable.


----------



## Idyit

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok for the men who are feeling that I've misinterpreted what some men say and think I may believe it applies to more men than it actually does, I'll come back later and try to find some more links and even some from TAM that are* the reason I have come my opinion *on this subject.
> 
> I also want to say that it is highly likely that more refined, evolved, and loving men are drawn to be here at TAM. I do believe each of you saying that you don't do these things, and it is heartwarming and respectable.


She's back....


----------



## TX-SC

@Faithful Wife, so in post 211 you say that you and your GF's sit around checking out and talking about guys and their packages and call it "girl talk" but if a guy does it he's horrible?. You have a BF if I'm not mistaken, but you sit around checking out guys crotches? I don't understand this reasoning. So it's okay for women to do, but not men?


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> @Faithful Wife, so in post 211 you say that you and your GF's sit around checking out and talking about guys and their packages and call it "girl talk" but if a guy does it he's horrible?. You have a BF if I'm not mistaken, but you sit around checking out guys crotches? I don't understand this reasoning. So it's okay for women to do, but not men?


Yes it's ok for everyone to do it. Geese and ganders. It's something most men do, and I'm not sure if most women do it but plenty of us do. Men and women both typically shield this behavior when they are around their partners.

I understand some people don't do this. Or that they may be more drawn by an attractive face than a package or boobs. Or they don't look at all because they are totally monogamous. I'm not speaking for everyone and I respect others who don't check out others as much as I respect those who do.


----------



## TX-SC

Faithful Wife said:


> It has helped me to know what some men say about women.
> 
> Common things that have helped me:
> 
> We fantasize about your sister and friends.
> 
> We will never want just one woman no matter how hot she is.
> 
> Conversely, we could get a boner for nearly any woman if she is within a certain HWP ratio.
> 
> So no woman is ever special enough to rule a man's sexual desires completely.
> 
> This is good information to have because it is relevant and true.
> 
> Men need to understand the same.
> 
> Women will always get chick wood for hunks.
> 
> Deal with it, brothers! To some woman (if not many) you are the hunk!


This is what I was alluding to above, but I guess I didn't really spell it out very well. So, you admit that women display similar patterns in terms of ogling and lusting after different guys based solely on their looks. I agree, it's something both sexes do. 

The items you listed are certainly not indicative of men in general, though I don't doubt that some are like this. But, I'd like to know your take on what the FEMALE equivalent to these on your list would be? Certainly some women lust after their husband's brother. We've stories on her and SI that prove that point. Every point on your list has been also expressed by cheating women here and on SI as well. So, are all women just incapable of controlling their lust? 

Is it right for some guys to cop a feel, slap a butt, catcall, etc? Heck no! I have NEVER done that (except playfully with someone I was intimate with). You are describing a disturbing subculture of males and calling it typical. 

I don't lust after my wife's two sisters. I've been married 21 years and I have never done so. I also am VERY happy being with only one woman. I don't need any others. 

On the CWI forum here, you see more men devastated than women. It's almost like men are more monogamous by nature than women.  But honestly, I think many men, me included, settle down with the one we love and we cherish the monogamous way of life. 

I believe we have moved off topic here and I apologize. 

Back on topic, I believe that men are taught from an early age, through jokes and watching TV, that women desire large penises. So, those with smaller ones, even some who are average, feel that women will be disappointed when they see you aren't hung like a porn star. It's sad really. I too have never heard a woman complain about size. I have, however, heard women brag about a past lover's size. So, even though they may not complain, I've seen some just really excited over other's that were larger.


----------



## Dannip

"Don't matter the size, all it needs to do is please me..."


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## TheTruthHurts

I told my W last night that she was enjoying PIV more because I was shrinking it. Size matters I guess, but I think too much is worse than too little. And taking a que from @Faithful Wife I'll stipulate that ALL women believe this, because ALL the women I'm boning have expressed this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

Spicy said:


> Tell him you said that only because you were being defensive and felt inferior to the fake women in porn. Remind him that *every person in porn* makes every normal person feel inadequate if they were to compare That you didn't even remotely mean it, and that you love his wang just the way it is! Then say, "In fact, I want to suck on it right now."


*Invariably, "actions do speak so much louder than words!"

Use your words to convey to him all of your heartfelt apologies for what you had previously said to him, greatly keeping in mind that it is just about every bit as harsh for a husband conveying to his lady love that she needs bigger breasts!

And once the words are clearly understood by him and are out of the way, without explanation or even aforethought, push him down to the bed or the floor and lasciviously strip him down and have your way with him from an oral perspective, giving him absolutely no quarter or relief!

He'll love it and will totally get your message! And in all fairness, if he's the red-blooded man that I would think that he is, please prepare yourself for some rather nasty and most pleasant reciprocation! *


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> Some do, some don't. I know which of my friends will want to talk about it and which ones don't. The ones who do are happy to give a report. The ones who don't may mention something somewhere down the line but they won't elaborate much on it.
> 
> The ones who do want to talk...*we talk about more than just what it looks like or how big it is.* We talk about how good the sex was or wasn't, talk about if things flowed naturally or not, if there was good chemistry, if he was a good kisser, what kind of things is he into and are they compatible. We discuss if he or she are kinky or not, and how far it goes if they are.
> 
> I have a sister and we spill all to each other, which helps us a lot, especially as we encounter new things we aren't sure how to handle. For example she and her new guy have just now reached the stage where they are discussing porn. He is an avid user and she has never encountered this before. She and I had several talks about the topic as she sorted out her feelings about it and now she is about to have some more direct discussions with him about porn.
> 
> She and I have never gone into much detail about peens, but other friends do. I have a couple of single friends who are really focused on the penis and only date eggplants. *I've gotten to see a few incredible pictures men have sent these friends. It's not my preference but I sure like to look at the pictures* and I love hearing their stories. The badder the story the better.


FW, firstly, you know that I'm almost always on your side about how you view things like sex (we tend to just word it differently), but with this, I'm not so sure.

Your friends sharing pictures with you... not cool, IMO. I'm _assuming_ these men, your friends boyfriends, are not aware that other women are seeing these pictures.

And I know you've said you've got quite the collection of **** pics yourself. Have you shared any of those with any of your friends, as well?

This is where you've lost me (and I think some others) on this topic. In all honesty, I think it's more or less okay if you ask your friend how her new man is hung and you pretty much leave it at that. It's another thing to start discussing in detail (but whatever). It's something else entirely if she takes out her phone and literally shows you.

Now, I'm quite proud of what I have and I'm a 'free spirit' so I wouldn't be embarrassed if the girl I was seeing did something like this. However, it's also something that would have been between myself and my partner (no matter how casual we were).

The gist of your responses in this thread are based on "well, guys do it, so suck it up" and "women do it, too". Honestly, HONESTLY, we do not. Maybe very young men share pictures with their buddies, but that is such an un-cool thing to do to a woman, and even the 17 year old doing it knows it's a ****ty thing to do. It's not okay to do it to a man, either.

Frankly, FW, I absolutely admire your views on sexuality - I really do. It's refreshing to know that there ARE women out there who are highly sexual and speak freely about the subject.

But getting into details is pretty borderline (I'm not against it, personally, but I can see how many people would be). 
Keeping pictures and going back and looking at them occasionally is a toe over the line. Sharing pictures is completely crossing that line, though.

I assure you - the vast majority of (adult) men do not do this, despite so many women thinking they do. It's like this myth that's been perpetuated over the years, where guys sit around in locker rooms and talk about our wives and girlfriends tits. I'm not sure where it came from, TBH. When I was younger, I thought this was the case, too, so you're not alone, I don't think. But as I got older, I realized very quickly it just doesn't happen.


----------



## alexm

TX-SC said:


> Back on topic, I believe that men are taught from an early age, through jokes and watching TV, *that women desire large penises. So, those with smaller ones, even some who are average, feel that women will be disappointed when they see you aren't hung like a porn star.* It's sad really. I too have never heard a woman complain about size. I have, however, heard women brag about a past lover's size. So, even though they may not complain, I've seen some just really excited over other's that were larger.


Many, many women _don't care_. This is the truth.

We've been down this road before (once a month on TAM, I think!).

I liken women caring about penis size to men caring about breast size.

A sizeable chunk of men simply do not care about breast size, BUT, to some, bigger is more fun or exciting. Doesn't matter if their partner doesn't _have_ big boobs - they're still sexually attracted to them, and they probably don't _wish_ they had bigger ones, but if they did... woo-hoo. But they still don't _care_ if they don't.

There are, of course, a fairly small subset of men who "need" big boobs for some reason. That's okay, they're allowed. They like what they like. Whatever.

As FW is proof of, there ARE women who genuinely like penises, mainly for the esthetics of them. She likes penises the same way some men like boobs. They're fun to look at, she has her preferences for shape etc. - cool.

And just like boobs, bigger is not necessarily better. You can have a huge **** and it doesn't automatically make it "nice" - just like boobs aren't awesome just because they're big.

In some thread somewhere, FW talked about her personal preferences, and they're far more average than you'd think.

As I sit and write this, it makes me think that of the women I've been with, only one has been a really good fit for me. The others being on the bigger side or the smaller side - but they've all been just fine and they've worked. And I'm above average in both dimensions, so you'd think that I'd have felt inferior with the women who could accommodate more, but no. Just like the ones that I was too big for didn't make me feel superior. Vaginas come in different shapes and sizes, too, so the size a man has is only half the battle, in reality.


----------



## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some do, some don't. I know which of my friends will want to talk about it and which ones don't. The ones who do are happy to give a report. The ones who don't may mention something somewhere down the line but they won't elaborate much on it.
> 
> The ones who do want to talk...*we talk about more than just what it looks like or how big it is.* We talk about how good the sex was or wasn't, talk about if things flowed naturally or not, if there was good chemistry, if he was a good kisser, what kind of things is he into and are they compatible. We discuss if he or she are kinky or not, and how far it goes if they are.
> 
> I have a sister and we spill all to each other, which helps us a lot, especially as we encounter new things we aren't sure how to handle. For example she and her new guy have just now reached the stage where they are discussing porn. He is an avid user and she has never encountered this before. She and I had several talks about the topic as she sorted out her feelings about it and now she is about to have some more direct discussions with him about porn.
> 
> She and I have never gone into much detail about peens, but other friends do. I have a couple of single friends who are really focused on the penis and only date eggplants. *I've gotten to see a few incredible pictures men have sent these friends. It's not my preference but I sure like to look at the pictures* and I love hearing their stories. The badder the story the better.
> 
> 
> 
> FW, firstly, you know that I'm almost always on your side about how you view things like sex (we tend to just word it differently), but with this, I'm not so sure.
> 
> Your friends sharing pictures with you... not cool, IMO. I'm _assuming_ these men, your friends boyfriends, are not aware that other women are seeing these pictures.
> 
> And I know you've said you've got quite the collection of **** pics yourself. Have you shared any of those with any of your friends, as well?
> 
> This is where you've lost me (and I think some others) on this topic. In all honesty, I think it's more or less okay if you ask your friend how her new man is hung and you pretty much leave it at that. It's another thing to start discussing in detail (but whatever). It's something else entirely if she takes out her phone and literally shows you.
> 
> Now, I'm quite proud of what I have and I'm a 'free spirit' so I wouldn't be embarrassed if the girl I was seeing did something like this. However, it's also something that would have been between myself and my partner (no matter how casual we were).
> 
> The gist of your responses in this thread are based on "well, guys do it, so suck it up" and "women do it, too". Honestly, HONESTLY, we do not. Maybe very young men share pictures with their buddies, but that is such an un-cool thing to do to a woman, and even the 17 year old doing it knows it's a ****ty thing to do. It's not okay to do it to a man, either.
> 
> Frankly, FW, I absolutely admire your views on sexuality - I really do. It's refreshing to know that there ARE women out there who are highly sexual and speak freely about the subject.
> 
> But getting into details is pretty borderline (I'm not against it, personally, but I can see how many people would be).
> Keeping pictures and going back and looking at them occasionally is a toe over the line. Sharing pictures is completely crossing that line, though.
> 
> I assure you - the vast majority of (adult) men do not do this, despite so many women thinking they do. It's like this myth that's been perpetuated over the years, where guys sit around in locker rooms and talk about our wives and girlfriends tits. I'm not sure where it came from, TBH. When I was younger, I thought this was the case, too, so you're not alone, I don't think. But as I got older, I realized very quickly it just doesn't happen.
Click to expand...

The pictures that have been shared with me are not boyfriends of these women. They were unsolicited pics from dudes who these women didn't even know. They were trying to get with my friends and thought that sending a **** pic would interest her enough to meet him in person (for sex). The feeling by my friends (and I agreed) was that if a guy sent an unsolicited picture like that to a woman he doesn't even know, it's unlikely he is going to care if she showed anyone else.

No one has ever shown me a **** pic of their actual boyfriend or of any guy they even went on one date with. Only randos. And randos send them all the time, again unsolicited. 

I have not shown any pics to friends except one. This one guy I told about my penis gallery wanted to send me pics for the gallery and also said he wanted me to show my friends and I did actually show his to one friend. No faces. I never even went on a date with him yet he still wanted to be in my gallery.

I am not saying men necessarily share pics like this of women especially actual women they are dating. What I have been getting at though is the notion that men will always be turned on by other women and will always look. The whole constant push back about how every man watches porn and always will and is lying if he says he doesn't is part of it. I'm just here pointing out that this is true for many women as well and some of us aren't willing to hide it anymore, just as most men don't feel any need to hide their attraction to other women from us.

It is natural to be turned on by others and as long as it is understood that this applies to women too (including penis size for some of us women) then I've said my peace. I'm just tired of hearing that penis insecurity should be coddled more than any other type of insecurity because that's just ridiculous.


----------



## vauxhall101

I don't mean to jump on Faithful Wife either (so to speak), but it really does bug me when my wife has a strop because I was "looking at another woman", when, for example, I smile at the waitress. What am I supposed to do? Avert my gaze around half the human population? It's not as if I'm fantasizing about her. 

It doesn't bother me if my wife "checks out" other guys, nor that she sometimes lightly flirts with them. But if my eyeline is anywhere near a female who my wife considers to be 'attractive', I feel the sharp end. That feels like a double standard to me. 

On the topic at hand, it is very hard (no pun intended), because we are constantly told how the penis is a powerful, penetrating weapon and so forth (for both good and evil), whereas in fact it is an extremely sensitive, skittish organ. As ridiculous as it is, attacking a man's penis size is about deep as you can cut him. You say something like that to him, and it will stick with him forever. Men are very, very sensitive, and we have to pretend not to be, which makes it worse.


----------



## Faithful Wife

vauxhall101 said:


> I don't mean to jump on Faithful Wife either (so to speak), but it really does bug me when my wife has a strop because I was "looking at another woman", when, for example, I smile at the waitress. What am I supposed to do? Avert my gaze around half the human population? It's not as if I'm fantasizing about her.
> 
> It doesn't bother me if my wife "checks out" other guys, nor that she sometimes lightly flirts with them. But if my eyeline is anywhere near a female who my wife considers to be 'attractive', I feel the sharp end. That feels like a double standard to me.
> 
> On the topic at hand, it is very hard (no pun intended), because we are constantly told how the penis is a powerful, penetrating weapon and so forth (for both good and evil), whereas in fact it is an extremely sensitive, skittish organ. As ridiculous as it is, attacking a man's penis size is about deep as you can cut him. You say something like that to him, and it will stick with him forever. Men are very, very sensitive, and we have to pretend not to be, which makes it worse.


Yes that certainly sounds like a double standard on your wife's part. It doesn't sound fair or cool.

As for the penis insecurity issue, I'm sorry but again, I will not accept that this insecurity cuts any deeper than any of the ways that women may feel insecure after hearing the constant scrutinizing comments men make all throughout our lives about women and women's bodies and body parts. Plenty of men do not have penis insecurity and plenty of women don't have body issues, either. For those who do have any type of insecurity, it can be a difficult and painful thing to go through, but it is up to each of us to love our own bodies and not allow anyone else to make us feel insecure.

Most men do not coddle women's insecurities and believe they should just "get over it". I'm saying the same.


----------



## Diana7

vauxhall101 said:


> I don't mean to jump on Faithful Wife either (so to speak), but it really does bug me when my wife has a strop because I was "looking at another woman", when, for example, I smile at the waitress. What am I supposed to do? Avert my gaze around half the human population? It's not as if I'm fantasizing about her.
> 
> It doesn't bother me if my wife "checks out" other guys, nor that she sometimes lightly flirts with them. But if my eyeline is anywhere near a female who my wife considers to be 'attractive', I feel the sharp end. That feels like a double standard to me.
> 
> On the topic at hand, it is very hard (no pun intended), because we are constantly told how the penis is a powerful, penetrating weapon and so forth (for both good and evil), whereas in fact it is an extremely sensitive, skittish organ. As ridiculous as it is, attacking a man's penis size is about deep as you can cut him. You say something like that to him, and it will stick with him forever. Men are very, very sensitive, and we have to pretend not to be, which makes it worse.


I think we all know that there is 'seeing' another woman/man and there is 'staring/leering/checking-out' another woman/man. Big difference. I don't stare at other men and definitely don't flirt, and he doesn't stare at other women or flirt. It's so disrespectful.


----------



## vauxhall101

Faithful Wife said:


> As for the penis insecurity issue, I'm sorry but again, I will not accept that this insecurity cuts any deeper than any of the ways that women may feel insecure after hearing the constant scrutinizing comments men make all throughout our lives about women and women's bodies and body parts. Plenty of men do not have penis insecurity and plenty of women don't have body issues, either. For those who do have any type of insecurity, it can be a difficult and painful thing to go through, but it is up to each of us to love our own bodies and not allow anyone else to make us feel insecure.
> 
> Most men do not coddle women's insecurities and believe they should just "get over it". I'm saying the same.


Maybe, but practically all women I've known for any length of time have regularly sought reassurance about their weight, and if it is their husband/boyfriend, they insist on it. In fact, and I don't mean to be argumentative, but I think that "coddling her insecurities" is probably the thing I have spent the most time doing in every relationship I've had. 

I have never felt that way about the size of my old chap - and if anything, when I have been complimented on it I've found it rather strange, because it feels I'm being complimented on how shapely my feet are or something.


----------



## vauxhall101

Diana7 said:


> I think we all know that there is 'seeing' another woman/man and there is 'staring/leering/checking-out' another woman/man. Big difference.


Agreed. Can you tell my wife please? :smthumbup:


----------



## chillymorn69

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes that certainly sounds like a double standard on your wife's part. It doesn't sound fair or cool.
> 
> As for the penis insecurity issue, I'm sorry but again, I will not accept that this insecurity cuts any deeper than any of the ways that women may feel insecure after hearing the constant scrutinizing comments men make all throughout our lives about women and women's bodies and body parts. Plenty of men do not have penis insecurity and plenty of women don't have body issues, either. For those who do have any type of insecurity, it can be a difficult and painful thing to go through, but it is up to each of us to love our own bodies and not allow anyone else to make us feel insecure.
> 
> Most men do not coddle women's insecurities and believe they should just "get over it". I'm saying the same.


I was under the impression that generalities are frowned upon here at tam.


----------



## Faithful Wife

vauxhall101 said:


> Maybe, but practically all women I've known for any length of time have regularly sought reassurance about their weight, and if it is their husband/boyfriend, they insist on it. In fact, and I don't mean to be argumentative, but I think that "coddling her insecurities" is probably the thing I have spent the most time doing in every relationship I've had.
> 
> I have never felt that way about the size of my old chap - and if anything, when I have been complimented on it I've found it rather strange, because it feels I'm being complimented on how shapely my feet are or something.


I believe you and I do understand that many men are sensitive to their wive's insecurities.

I do not mean to put words in your mouth but can I ask you....

Did you feel your wife's insecurities were justified, or did you feel she had become insecure for reasons that she should not have?

And as a comparison, do you feel that your wife's insecurities are just as painful as a man's penis insecurity would be if he had come to be insecure for the same or similar reasons that your wife became insecure?

My point being...yes I hear men talk about how insecure their wives are. But when they speak about their feelings about her insecurity, they say things like "she looks great, she has no reason to be so insecure" and also that they wish she would stop feeling this way (as it is usually a barrier to intimacy). In other words, they are mostly dismissive about the reasons behind why she is insecure. They mostly just feel "she shouldn't feel that way" and wish she would magically get over it.

Yet the same men - - if told about a man with a small **** - - may say something like "oh dear lord a man will NEVER feel secure if he thinks his **** is small" and will coddle that insecurity as if it is known and understood that having a small **** is the one unforgivable way to not only be unattractive but also, they will imply that the man *should* feel ashamed of his member.

Men are actually the ones who size is more important to and are also the ones who reinforce to each other that having a small one is an unforgivable problem forever. Since you guys keep doing this to each other and yourselves, my feeling is please, just get over it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

chillymorn69 said:


> I was under the impression that generalities are frowned upon here at tam.




Well yes, generally speaking 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## knobcreek

Honestly, there's nothing you can do, you insulted his manhood, he knows how you really feel. I'm shocked he stayed in the marriage, I would figure what's the point if she thinks my **** is too small for her to have satisfying sex? Any attempt now is not going to be taken seriously.

Porn is a big problem too, boys grow up watching horse cocked giants with the pretty girl, so even a normal **** seems small. I'm a healthy size, not huge or anything and I thought I was deformed until I was like 17 (and if the average size is 5.5 inches I'm a good deal larger than that but thought at the time I was tiny because my only frame of reference was that DVD my buddy pilfered from his mom's dresser drawer where the dude had basically a foot long and soda can around),and scared to death of being laughed at every-time a girl took my pants down. It is an extremely personal and anxiety inducing experience for most men. To have your wife pull out the nuclear option there is unforgivable, especially if he was self-conscious about it.


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## chillymorn69

I don't think It such a big deal that it would actually end a marriage. she said it out of resentment she explained it to him. I do think some extra attention to it would go a long way .

listen if your satisfied with your sex life with him then tell him one last time its good your fine. then back it up with maybe you need to talk to someone about how much this is bothering you. I think your size is just fine and now your bringing it up all the time is starting to be a problem. I love you all of you now can we please try getting past this. let me show you grab his hand and drag him in the bedroom and knock his socks off. 


I once told my wife I should have never of married your fat ass.she threw a shovel at me good thing I had fast reflexes . and the best part is she isn't fat at all never was but I just wanted to hurt her and I knew that would do the trick. I bought a cheap pair of knee pads at harbor freight .............

seemed to work for me.


----------



## vauxhall101

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you feel your wife's insecurities were justified, or did you feel she had become insecure for reasons that she should not have?
> 
> And as a comparison, do you feel that your wife's insecurities are just as painful as a man's penis insecurity would be if he had come to be insecure for the same or similar reasons that your wife became insecure?


Ah, that's a different thing - I can't 'grade' people's insecurities. I don't know which gender's insecurities are more 'valid'. Tbh I didn't think that was the question, I thought it was why should women coddle men about their insecurities, when men don't do likewise. I was disagreeing with that assertion. 



> My point being...yes I hear men talk about how insecure their wives are. But when they speak about their feelings about her insecurity, they say things like "she looks great, she has no reason to be so insecure" and also that they wish she would stop feeling this way (as it is usually a barrier to intimacy). In other words, they are mostly dismissive about the reasons behind why she is insecure. They mostly just feel "she shouldn't feel that way" and wish she would magically get over it.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I have to disagree on my own part (so to speak). The reason I have been 'dismissive' (and I have been) about my lady friend's insecurities in the past, is not because it is a barrier to intimacy, or any of those things. It is because of exasperation. My wife is an example. The problem is not that she expects me to reassure her insecurity about her appearance, the problem is that she expects, nay demands, that I do it multiple times a day, on pain of sulking argument, and sometimes even then she'll say it wasn't spontaneous enough, or she had to cajole it out of me, or so on. I don't mind complimenting her or reassuring her insecurities, in fact, I like doing it, but I do object to being held hostage to it. I've never known a man do that to a lady about the size of his winky (although I'm sure it has happened) - "Does my winky look small in this? But does it _really_ look small?" etc. Equally, I've never heard a guy with a toupee blame women because they have an unrealistically high expectation of what a man should look like. 



> Men are actually the ones who size is more important to and are also the ones who reinforce to each other that having a small one is an unforgivable problem forever. Since you guys keep doing this to each other and yourselves, my feeling is please, just get over it.


Agreed.


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> Men are actually the ones who size is more important to and are also the ones who reinforce to each other that having a small one is an unforgivable problem forever. Since you guys keep doing this to each other and yourselves, my feeling is please, just get over it.


True that.

FW, I don't want to be "that guy" and go through old posts (I hate when people do that!) but you have, on numerous occasions, intimated that you definitely prefer a bigger penis. I certainly wouldn't call you a size queen or anything, though.

I get what you're saying here, however please understand that most men don't, uh, measure up to your personal preference in size (which is not huge, it's worth mentioning, but it's definitely bigger than most).

But it's kind of like a guy trying to tell women that breast size isn't important at all, and that it's them who have the issue with their size, not men. Then, on the side, discuss how their preference is for D-cup boobs. Know what I mean?

The reality is, they say the average penis size is ~5.5-6.0" x 4.5-5.0" in girth or so, I think we can all agree on that. Whenever somebody posts something about the average size here on TAM, it seems to be in that range.

Now, it's a small sample size, as I don't recall a lot of women here mentioning what their preference is, but it has come up occasionally, and it's definitely not what the "average" size is, I can tell you that.

So tell me, when most of us know what the average is, yet constantly hear that above average is preferred (not necessary, just preferred) - and this coming from women - how is this not supposed to affect the 'average' man?

Like most anything in life, and completely regardless of gender or even topic, nobody truly wants to be "good enough" or "average" - and nobody truly wants either of those things from somebody else, either.

So all in all, my theory is that most men who fall within the average range or perhaps a little smaller, do not necessarily feel _inferior_- they feel that they are _average, good enough, acceptable_, etc.

(I'm purposefully not mentioning porn in this discussion, as I think most of us men know by now that that's no way to gauge anything. If you're comparing yourself to a porn actor, then 99% of us are going to be in trouble! It's not reality.)


----------



## TX-SC

alexm said:


> True that.
> 
> FW, I don't want to be "that guy" and go through old posts (I hate when people do that!) but you have, on numerous occasions, intimated that you definitely prefer a bigger penis. I certainly wouldn't call you a size queen or anything, though.
> 
> I get what you're saying here, however please understand that most men don't, uh, measure up to your personal preference in size (which is not huge, it's worth mentioning, but it's definitely bigger than most).
> 
> But it's kind of like a guy trying to tell women that breast size isn't important at all, and that it's them who have the issue with their size, not men. Then, on the side, discuss how their preference is for D-cup boobs. Know what I mean?
> 
> The reality is, they say the average penis size is ~5.5-6.0" x 4.5-5.0" in girth or so, I think we can all agree on that. Whenever somebody posts something about the average size here on TAM, it seems to be in that range.
> 
> Now, it's a small sample size, as I don't recall a lot of women here mentioning what their preference is, but it has come up occasionally, and it's definitely not what the "average" size is, I can tell you that.
> 
> So tell me, when most of us know what the average is, yet constantly hear that above average is preferred (not necessary, just preferred) - and this coming from women - how is this not supposed to affect the 'average' man?
> 
> Like most anything in life, and completely regardless of gender or even topic, nobody truly wants to be "good enough" or "average" - and nobody truly wants either of those things from somebody else, either.
> 
> So all in all, my theory is that most men who fall within the average range or perhaps a little smaller, do not necessarily feel _inferior_- they feel that they are _average, good enough, acceptable_, etc.
> 
> (I'm purposefully not mentioning porn in this discussion, as I think most of us men know by now that that's no way to gauge anything. If you're comparing yourself to a porn actor, then 99% of us are going to be in trouble! It's not reality.)


Good points. As I mentioned earlier, I've never heard a woman complain about an average sized penis, but I've certainly heard women bragging about the one guy with a big penis that they dated. So, how is a guy supposed to feel about that? She's okay with my Toyota, but since riding in that Ferrari, it's all she thinks about.


----------



## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> So tell me, when most of us know what the average is, yet constantly hear that above average is preferred (not necessary, just preferred) - and this coming from women - how is this not supposed to affect the 'average' man?


So tell me....when most women are average (statistically this must be true, eh?) and yet we constantly hear that above average is preferred - and this is coming from men - how is this not supposed to affect the "average" woman?

See that's part of my point. Men's preferences for "above average" (not necessary, just preferred) is loudly stated and reinforced to women everywhere, all the time. And women have to just accept men's preferences and try to be good with themselves....men, you can do the same thing.

As a woman, I'm not going to coddle men's insecurities by saying I don't have a preference. I know many men would prefer if women simply didn't have a preference or they would prefer not to hear about it if they do. If any man here can't handle an internet stranger female saying she has a preference in penis size, then they need to examine why on earth this should matter so much to them and is that even logical.

The same way that I should be able to read comments by men on social media written about any woman who isn't not only better than average but isn't literally perfect and just say to myself "these men have their preferences and it has nothing to do with me, that is their absolute right to have preferences".

I don't see any men telling other men to stop having or stating their preferences so that the "average" woman isn't offended.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> Good points. As I mentioned earlier, I've never heard a woman complain about an average sized penis, but I've certainly heard women bragging about the one guy with a big penis that they dated. *So, how is a guy supposed to feel about that?* She's okay with my Toyota, but since riding in that Ferrari, it's all she thinks about.


Again this is men reinforcing the penis insecurity problem among other men. You take a hypothetical man and assume and state out loud that he *should* feel insecure just because he has heard a woman somewhere "bragging" about the one guy with a big penis.

Even though every woman everywhere has heard at least one guy "bragging" about nailing the chick who looked like a Victoria's Secret model (or insert the hundreds of other types of hot women a man may be bragging about nailing). Should we women say to each other and ourselves "oh crap, I heard some guy talking about how hot a certain extremely above average woman is, so does that mean my guy would prefer riding that Ferrari but he's just going to settle for my Toyota?" And other women should rush in and say "yeah honey, it's so true...that is soooooo horrible and sad that we will never ever be anything but average, we better hang our heads in shame and possibly never get over it".

And then the conversation will circle back around to how the penis is different, its the one thing he can't change, blah blah blah.

And then I'll circle back and say....Nope, not buying it. Insecurity is always painful and men don't get to claim that penis insecurity is worse than any other insecurity, and they should examine their own issues if they are going to be so absolutely fear stricken about their penis size. It means they are not secure in themselves, generally, if one thing like this - especially when it has never even happened to you personally - could rock them so deeply.


----------



## TX-SC

Faithful Wife said:


> Again this is men reinforcing the penis insecurity problem among other men. You take a hypothetical man and assume and state out loud that he *should* feel insecure just because he has heard a woman somewhere "bragging" about the one guy with a big penis.
> 
> Even though every woman everywhere has heard at least one guy "bragging" about nailing the chick who looked like a Victoria's Secret model (or insert the hundreds of other types of hot women a man may be bragging about nailing). Should we women say to each other and ourselves "oh crap, I heard some guy talking about how hot a certain extremely above average woman is, so does that mean my guy would prefer riding that Ferrari but he's just going to settle for my Toyota?" And other women should rush in and say "yeah honey, it's so true...that is soooooo horrible and sad that we will never ever be anything but average, we better hang our heads in shame and possibly never get over it".
> 
> And then the conversation will circle back around to how the penis is different, its the one thing he can't change, blah blah blah.
> 
> And then I'll circle back and say....Nope, not buying it. Insecurity is always painful and men don't get to claim that penis insecurity is worse than any other insecurity, and they should examine their own issues if they are going to be so absolutely fear stricken about their penis size. It means they are not secure in themselves, generally, if one thing like this - especially when it has never even happened to you personally - could rock them so deeply.


Insecurities are indeed a bad thing and I agree that it's crippling to some people to have them. I also agree that women have their own insecurities to worry over. I still would argue that the only valid analogy for women would be concerns that their vagina is too loose or doesn't look right. Anything else can be changed through surgery or dieting. 

I agree that for all of us, finding the right mate is a winning scenario. My wife is very happy with what I have. I have no real insecurities over my penis. But, some men do.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

TX-SC said:


> Good points. As I mentioned earlier, I've never heard a woman complain about an average sized penis, but I've certainly heard women bragging about the one guy with a big penis that they dated. So, how is a guy supposed to feel about that? She's okay with my Toyota, *but since riding in that Ferrari, it's all she thinks about.*


Well, hopefully, if that's her obsession, she'll cut the fella loose and go looking for that Ferrari.

If not, then why believe she's not perfectly happy with the Toyota? Toyota's have many great qualities and they can be souped up as well (I was channel surfing this weekend and stumbled upon a car race, something I never watch, but as I passed over, I noticed some of the cars were Camrys! Imagine my surprise). If you're just a Toyota, do what you can to be one of those high performance ones!

As for the analogy of ditching the Toyota for a Ferrari, consider also that there are many ways we can be "just a Toyota." We may not be tall enough, we may not have a handsome enough face, we may not make enough money, we may not have a good enough sense of humor,... the list of ways we could turn off a woman is endless. Why fixate on just the penis? And when we choose which ones to focus on, why not focus on the ones we actually have some control over?


----------



## vauxhall101

Faithful Wife said:


> And women have to just accept men's preferences and try to be good with themselves....men, you can do the same thing.
> 
> As a woman, I'm not going to coddle men's insecurities by saying I don't have a preference. I know many men would prefer if women simply didn't have a preference or they would prefer not to hear about it if they do. *If any man here can't handle an internet stranger female saying she has a preference in penis size, then they need to examine why on earth this should matter so much to them and is that even logical.*
> 
> The same way that I should be able to read comments by men on social media written about any woman who isn't not only better than average but isn't literally perfect *and just say to myself"these men have their preferences and it has nothing to do with me, that is their absolute right to have preferences".
> 
> I don't see any men telling other men to stop having or stating their preferences so that the "average" woman isn't offended*.


Lol, I think you've got us there!


----------



## Faithful Wife

TX-SC said:


> Insecurities are indeed a bad thing and I agree that it's crippling to some people to have them. I also agree that women have their own insecurities to worry over. I still would argue that the *only valid analogy for women would be concerns that their vagina is too loose or doesn't look right*. Anything else can be changed through surgery or dieting.
> 
> I agree that for all of us, finding the right mate is a winning scenario. My wife is very happy with what I have. I have no real insecurities over my penis. But, some men do.


But a man saying what is valid for a woman to feel insecure about has no bearing on what women actually feel insecure about. Trying to say that there is no valid analogy is dismissive and pointless. Trying to even make an analogy is also dismissive and pointless. Insecurity is what it is, it exists in people to varying degrees about various issues. Some men who are average are NOT insecure at all, but when other men try to argue that an average man SHOULD feel insecure and that this insecurity has no valid analogy among women's insecurities, it again just spreads and reinforces penis insecurity in general. You guys are doing it to yourselves.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, hopefully, if that's her obsession, she'll cut the fella loose and go looking for that Ferrari.
> 
> If not, then why believe she's not perfectly happy with the Toyota? Toyota's have many great qualities and they can be souped up as well (I was channel surfing this weekend and stumbled upon a car race, something I never watch, but as I passed over, I noticed some of the cars were Camrys! Imagine my surprise). If you're just a Toyota, do what you can to be one of those high performance ones!
> 
> As for the analogy of ditching the Toyota for a Ferrari, consider also that there are many ways we can be "just a Toyota." We may not be tall enough, we may not have a handsome enough face, we may not make enough money, we may not have a good enough sense of humor,... the list of ways we could turn off a woman is endless. *Why fixate on just the penis? And when we choose which ones to focus on, why not focus on the ones we actually have some control over?*


Thank you!!!!


----------



## knobcreek

Women want:

1. Man over 6 feet
2. Man who earns over 100K a year
3. Man with a large penis
4. Man with a square jaw and rugged good looks

Any one of those attributes are anywhere from about 15% of the population (over 6 feet), to 4% of the population (makes over 100K), and a minuscule % of the population (penis over 8 inches). Any one of those are hard to come by, a combination of all of them leaves the tiniest portion of the male population to choose from as potential mates.

It's just more of the 80/20 rule, or in this case 90/2 rule. It's hypergamy 101 of which modern women subscribe to in spades. even your plainest of Jane's these days thinks she's entitled to all 4 of those attributes and won't settle for less. But the laws of attraction and nature are the bitterest of pills to swallow, they don't have the goods to demand it, and this leaves a lot of unhappy ladies out there who aren't too keen on settling. So it should be no surprise when all woman want what only the tiniest fraction of the male population actually has to offer them, hypergamy 101...

I think in 50 years only 15% of males will mate and about 40% of the women will share the top 15 % of men, the others will just ignore each other, with the bottom 60% of women not even willing to entertain the bottom 85% of men.


----------



## knobcreek

TX-SC said:


> Good points. As I mentioned earlier, I've never heard a woman complain about an average sized penis, but I've certainly heard women bragging about the one guy with a big penis that they dated. So, how is a guy supposed to feel about that? *She's okay with my Toyota, but since riding in that Ferrari, it's all she thinks about*.


And this is the obvious backlash to women hopping from c0ck-to-c0ck in their teens and 20's, by the time they start freaking out that they'll be childless and start looking for a husband they've been bedded by dozens of men way out of their league that a lifetime mate in their league can't compare to. Men will move down the ladder for sex no problem, but not marriage (generally). So that wife of yours will remember this ones c0ck, and this one's abs, this one's eyes, this one's sense of humor. You'll never measure up in her eyes, she's comparing you to two dozen men and taking the best attributes of each.

I'm still married for the kids, but the only way for me to win is to not play this game anymore, just try to improve myself and start looking for experiences in life before I die, stop worrying about someone else making me happy or basing my self-worth on what they think of me. of course this is much easier said than done, but I'm hoping to get there..


----------



## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> Women want:
> 
> 1. Man over 6 feet
> 2. Man who earns over 100K a year
> 3. Man with a large penis
> 4. Man with a square jaw and rugged good looks
> 
> Any one of those attributes are anywhere from about 15% of the population (over 6 feet), to 4% of the population (makes over 100K), and a minuscule % of the population (penis over 8 inches). Any one of those are hard to come by, a combination of all of them leaves the tiniest portion of the male population to choose from as potential mates.
> 
> It's just more of the 80/20 rule, or in this case 90/2 rule. It's hypergamy 101 of which modern women subscribe to in spades. even your plainest of Jane's these days thinks she's entitled to all 4 of those attributes and won't settle for less. But the laws of attraction and nature are the bitterest of pills to swallow, they don't have the goods to demand it, and this leaves a lot of unhappy ladies out there who aren't too keen on settling. So it should be no surprise when all woman want what only the tiniest fraction of the male population actually has to offer them, hypergamy 101...
> 
> I think in 50 years only 15% of males will mate and about 40% of the women will share the top 15 % of men, the others will just ignore each other, with the bottom 60% of women not even willing to entertain the bottom 85% of men.


1. Actually I prefer 6'2" or taller, which is about 3.9 percent of the population.
2. Earns 100K - sure, I'd take that. More is fine, too, depending on our lifestyle. I earn quite a lot so adding it together would be fun.
3. Large - yep. Never said over 8 inches but sure, I'd love to try that.
4. Square jaw and rugged good looks - sure, this could describe most of the guys I have dated.

As to the rest of what you wrote......


----------



## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> And this is the obvious backlash to women hopping from c0ck-to-c0ck in their teens and 20's, by the time they start freaking out that they'll be childless and start looking for a husband they've been bedded by dozens of men way out of their league that a lifetime mate in their league can't compare to. Men will move down the ladder for sex no problem, but not marriage (generally). *So that wife of yours will remember this ones c0ck, and this one's abs, this one's eyes, this one's sense of humor. You'll never measure up in her eyes, she's comparing you to two dozen men and taking the best attributes of each.*
> 
> I'm still married for the kids, but the only way for me to win is to not play this game anymore, just try to improve myself and start looking for experiences in life before I die, stop worrying about someone else making me happy or basing my self-worth on what they think of me. of course this is much easier said than done, but I'm hoping to get there..


This is a man deliberately trying to make other men feel insecure.

Why?

To what end?

This is why I'm saying you guys are doing it to yourselves.

All of this backlash simply because women have sexual preferences....somehow that means no man will ever be good enough. 

And yet the world turns, men and women get together and love each other, some get married, la la la, on and on forever.....


----------



## knobcreek

Faithful Wife said:


> 1. Actually I prefer 6'2" or taller, which is about 3.9 percent of the population.
> 2. Earns 100K - sure, I'd take that. More is fine, too, depending on our lifestyle. I earn quite a lot so adding it together would be fun.
> 3. Large - yep. Never said over 8 inches but sure, I'd love to try that.
> 4. Square jaw and rugged good looks - sure, this could describe most of the guys I have dated.
> 
> As to the rest of what you wrote......


If you are able to routinely date men with all these attributes combined then you are likely very beautiful and my post isn't even directed towards you. Everyone knows a beautiful woman can demand the rarest of qualities in men, good for you, you hit the genetic lottery. The problem is, extremely average women now demand what is mathematically impossible in the male population. There just aren't enough 6 foot dudes making 6 figures with a baby's arm for a d*ck to go around, yet this is what all women insist upon, everyone else is settling (even if it's like 95% of the male population).


----------



## knobcreek

Faithful Wife said:


> This is a man deliberately trying to make other men feel insecure.
> 
> Why?
> 
> To what end?
> 
> This is why I'm saying you guys are doing it to yourselves.
> 
> All of this backlash simply because women have sexual preferences....somehow that means no man will ever be good enough.
> 
> And yet the world turns, men and women get together and love each other, some get married, la la la, on and on forever.....


I'm not making anyone insecure, just stating cold hard truths, people can do with them what they want. If anyone is making anyone insecure it's you, someone who would likely be top 2% female telling a bunch of regular dudes how they don't measure up, she's got have a guy 6'2 or taller, big c0ck and rich. We get it you're hot and date only top alpha men, most men in here have been cheated on and feel like garbage already, they don't need the cheerleader kicking dirt in their face and kissing the QB right now. I can only assume this is some sick sadistic ritual of yours to make you feel better about yourself and whatever it is you're lacking.

Countdown to white knight attacks 3-2-1


----------



## vauxhall101

Faithful Wife said:


> 1. Actually I prefer 6'2" or taller, which is about 3.9 percent of the population.
> 2. Earns 100K - sure, I'd take that. More is fine, too, depending on our lifestyle. I earn quite a lot so adding it together would be fun.
> 3. Large - yep. Never said over 8 inches but sure, I'd love to try that.
> 4. Square jaw and rugged good looks - sure, this could describe most of the guys I have dated.
> 
> As to the rest of what you wrote......


Is it really only 3.9%? So I'm taller than 96.1% of guys? I'm not sure that's accurate. 

Oh sorry, thread jack, errr, I'm going to go right ahead and state that my winky wouldn't be in the top 3.9%......


----------



## Faithful Wife

vauxhall101 said:


> Is it really only 3.9%? So I'm taller than 96.1% of guys? I'm not sure that's accurate.


Why Do We Love Tall Men?

In the U.S. population, about 14.5 percent of all men are six feet or over. Among CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, that number is 58 percent. Even more strikingly, *in the general American population, 3.9 percent of adult men are 6’2″ or taller*. Among my CEO sample, 30 percent were 6’2″ or taller.

:x


----------



## TX-SC

knobcreek said:


> Women want:
> 
> 1. Man over 6 feet
> 2. Man who earns over 100K a year
> 3. Man with a large penis
> 4. Man with a square jaw and rugged good looks
> 
> Any one of those attributes are anywhere from about 15% of the population (over 6 feet), to 4% of the population (makes over 100K), and a minuscule % of the population (penis over 8 inches). Any one of those are hard to come by, a combination of all of them leaves the tiniest portion of the male population to choose from as potential mates.
> 
> It's just more of the 80/20 rule, or in this case 90/2 rule. It's hypergamy 101 of which modern women subscribe to in spades. even your plainest of Jane's these days thinks she's entitled to all 4 of those attributes and won't settle for less. But the laws of attraction and nature are the bitterest of pills to swallow, they don't have the goods to demand it, and this leaves a lot of unhappy ladies out there who aren't too keen on settling. So it should be no surprise when all woman want what only the tiniest fraction of the male population actually has to offer them, hypergamy 101...
> 
> I think in 50 years only 15% of males will mate and about 40% of the women will share the top 15 % of men, the others will just ignore each other, with the bottom 60% of women not even willing to entertain the bottom 85% of men.


I think the 85% of us that are normal will find our love in sex robots.


----------



## vauxhall101

knobcreek said:


> women now demand what is mathematically impossible in the male population. There just aren't enough 6 foot dudes making 6 figures with a baby's arm for a d*ck to go around, yet this is what all women insist upon, everyone else is settling (even if it's like 95% of the male population).


I do agree that lots of women today have a ridiculously unrealistic expectation of what they are entitled to in a mate, thanks to Rom-coms/relationship books/Oprah etc. Equally, I think that lots of young men have an unrealistic expectation of what they are entitled to in a sexual encounter, thanks to internet porn.


----------



## knobcreek

TX-SC said:


> I think the 85% of us that are normal will find our love in sex robots.


The Japanese will lead the way, basically 70% of their male population under 30 has completely checked out of the dating world and written off women completely, they've literally gone monk and just play video games and watch animated porn all day.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

knobcreek said:


> I'm not making anyone insecure, just stating cold hard truths, people can do with them what they want.


So,


knobcreek said:


> ...she's comparing you to two dozen men and taking the best attributes of each."


is cold hard truth? You know this how? And you can say this for all couples how?

When I fell for my wife, I fell for the whole package, right down to the B cups. I compare her to nobody for there is no comparison. She is the only one I have these feelings for. 

Why should I assume my wife looks at me any differently? Do you compare your wife to all your past lovers and therefore project your MO onto women? Or do you believe women are inherently more duplicitous than men? 

If what you describe is the case, why put up with it at all? Why not just become a monk? Either you debase yourself by being the one she "settled" for or you just give up. 

I have argued both sides at points in this discussion, because I see both sides, but in the end, we've got to "man up" no matter the size of our manhood. If we don't, shame on us. This thread has been very instructive; I'm starting to see the wisdom in @faithfulwife 's tagline about feminism. Fellas, if we're going to just throw up our hands and give up, or whine, or play the victim, we don't deserve to get laid. You wanna' be worthy of great sex? Make yourself worthy of great sex! (and if you can't figure out how to do that without 8", you don't deserve the outcome)


----------



## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> I'm not making anyone insecure, just stating cold hard truths, people can do with them what they want. If anyone is making anyone insecure it's you, someone who would likely be top 2% female telling a bunch of regular dudes how they don't measure up (in the men's clubhouse area). Not sure why you do this to be honest.


If it is a "cold hard truth" that "most" people would rather date someone who is way above average looking even though "most" people are average....then sure, that's probably true.

It applies to men and women equally though, so every man any of us ever date has probably been with someone who is far better insert-the-blank than we are...are we supposed to be insecure for our entire lives about this?

Or perhaps we could all just find those who we feel mutual attraction with and understand this is all that is necessary?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So,
> 
> is cold hard truth? You know this how? And you can say this for all couples how?
> 
> When I fell for my wife, I fell for the whole package, right down to the B cups. I compare her to nobody for there is no comparison. She is the only one I have these feelings for.
> 
> Why should I assume my wife looks at me any differently? Do you compare your wife to all your past lovers and therefore project your MO onto women? Or do you believe women are inherently more duplicitous than men?
> 
> If what you describe is the case, why put up with it at all? Why not just become a monk? Either you debase yourself by being the one she "settled" for or you just give up.
> 
> I have argued both sides at points in this discussion, because I see both sides, but in the end, we've got to "man up" no matter the size of our manhood. If we don't, shame on us. This thread has been very instructive; *I'm starting to see the wisdom in @faithfulwife 's tagline about feminism*. Fellas, if we're going to just throw up our hands and give up, or whine, or play the victim, we don't deserve to get laid. You wanna' be worthy of great sex? Make yourself worthy of great sex! (and if you can't figure out how to do that without 8", you don't deserve the outcome)


Thank you!!!!

My tag line came from a quote from one of our TAM posters, a man, who himself said that "making sure only alphas get laid" is the goal of feminism. It was so silly and ridiculous that I made it my signature. It cracks me up every time I read it! :grin2:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

vauxhall101 said:


> I do agree that lots of women today have a ridiculously unrealistic expectation of what they are entitled to in a mate, thanks to Rom-coms/relationship books/Oprah etc. Equally, I think that lots of young men have an unrealistic expectation of what they are entitled to in a sexual encounter, thanks to internet porn.


Unrealistic expectations by women are nothing new--romance novels are almost as old as the printed word. Before that it was fairy tales. 

Whether yesteryear or today, some women have their feet on the ground and some don't. I don't think Oprah is to blame. 

Ditto internet porn (guys talked about all sorts of unrealistic trash long before the camera was invented), although accessible porn does make it easier for some guys to escape into fantasy and thus hinder their ability to form a healthy relationship with a real human.


----------



## knobcreek

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So,
> 
> is cold hard truth? You know this how? And you can say this for all couples how?
> 
> When I fell for my wife, I fell for the whole package, right down to the B cups. I compare her to nobody for there is no comparison. She is the only one I have these feelings for.
> 
> Why should I assume my wife looks at me any differently? Do you compare your wife to all your past lovers and therefore project your MO onto women? Or do you believe women are inherently more duplicitous than men?
> 
> If what you describe is the case, why put up with it at all? Why not just become a monk? Either you debase yourself by being the one she "settled" for or you just give up.
> 
> I have argued both sides at points in this discussion, because I see both sides, but in the end, we've got to "man up" no matter the size of our manhood. If we don't, shame on us. This thread has been very instructive; I'm starting to see the wisdom in @faithfulwife 's tagline about feminism. Fellas, if we're going to just throw up our hands and give up, or whine, or play the victim, we don't deserve to get laid. You wanna' be worthy of great sex? Make yourself worthy of great sex! (and if you can't figure out how to do that without 8", you don't deserve the outcome)



Sir Galahad... White Knight 1... The day the Red Pill truth hits you square in the face will be a stomach gut punch you'll never forget, remember this topic when it happens.


----------



## vauxhall101

knobcreek said:


> The Japanese will lead the way, basically 70% of their male population under 30 has completely checked out of the dating world and written off women completely, they've literally gone monk and just play video games and watch animated porn all day.


Have you read 'Love and Sex with Robots' by David Levy? He's a professor of robotics, he says that we'll all be having sex and falling in love with robots much sooner than most people imagine (I think he should speak for himself). So I guess, then, women could have as large a member as they wanted, and most men wouldn't feel insecure, because they wouldn't care as they have a fake woman who'll tell them how stud-ly they are no matter what......


----------



## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> If you are able to routinely date men with all these attributes combined then you are likely very beautiful and my post isn't even directed towards you. Everyone knows a beautiful woman can demand the rarest of qualities in men, good for you, you hit the genetic lottery. The problem is, extremely average women now demand what is mathematically impossible in the male population. *There just aren't enough 6 foot dudes making 6 figures with a baby's arm for a d*ck to go around, yet this is what all women insist upon,* everyone else is settling (even if it's like 95% of the male population).


Perhaps you are watching evolution in process. Perhaps these women's choices you speak of will actually eventually lower the population in general (a good thing IMO) and most males will then be of the heritage to be over 6 foot, high earners (ie: highly intelligent and cunning and charismatic), and I guess they all will have large peens as well (lovely how words like "a baby's arm for a d*ck" start getting used when men hear any whiff of a woman having ANY penis preference, he suddenly turns it into something insane and insulting to the woman).

Perhaps this is the logical evolution of male genetics, prompted by the fact that women can actually make choices versus just being sold off by our families to marry whatever arranged marriage was set up.

Or........perhaps you are just bitter about all of this for your own reasons, and you consistently read things that are literally meant to cause insecurity in men? 

Which is it? 

Decide for yourself.

Regardless of how loud you and your red pill peers are, what I see are average men and women everywhere hooking up together and finding love and happiness.

We see what we believe.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

knobcreek said:


> Sir Galahad... White Knight 1... The day the Red Pill truth hits you square in the face will be a stomach gut punch you'll never forget, remember this topic when it happens.


When that day comes, I shall seek you out, bow down to your wisdom, and subject myself to all the "I told you so's" you care to heap upon me. :yawn2:


----------



## vauxhall101

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Unrealistic expectations by women are nothing new--romance novels are almost as old as the printed word. Before that it was fairy tales.
> 
> Whether yesteryear or today, some women have their feet on the ground and some don't. I don't think Oprah is to blame.


It's an interesting point, but a romance novel never said to a woman, "You're better than that girl, don't you tolerate anything but the best, you should be treated like a movie star every day, or kick him to the curb", etc. Those novels are fiction, fantasy. I've known a number of relationships that have ended because she thought she deserved something "better", and then later regretted her decision. 

(and no, none of them were me, I doubt any women has ever regretted breaking up with me).


----------



## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> Sir Galahad... White Knight 1... The day the Red Pill truth hits you square in the face will be a stomach gut punch you'll never forget, remember this topic when it happens.


Please understand @rockyMountainYeti .... calling you a White Knight is an insult. Its the same as calling you a pvssy.

(gets popcorn)


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> When that day comes, I shall seek you out, bow down to your wisdom, and subject myself to all the "I told you so's" you care to heap upon me. :yawn2:


Never mind, I see you already answered in actual gentlemanly fashion. Very attractive.


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> So tell me....when most women are average (statistically this must be true, eh?) and yet we constantly hear that above average is preferred - and this is coming from men - how is this not supposed to affect the "average" woman?
> 
> See that's part of my point. Men's preferences for "above average" (not necessary, just preferred) is loudly stated and reinforced to women everywhere, all the time. And women have to just accept men's preferences and try to be good with themselves....men, you can do the same thing.
> 
> As a woman, I'm not going to coddle men's insecurities by saying I don't have a preference. I know many men would prefer if women simply didn't have a preference or they would prefer not to hear about it if they do. If any man here can't handle an internet stranger female saying she has a preference in penis size, then they need to examine why on earth this should matter so much to them and is that even logical.
> 
> The same way that I should be able to read comments by men on social media written about any woman who isn't not only better than average but isn't literally perfect and just say to myself "these men have their preferences and it has nothing to do with me, that is their absolute right to have preferences".
> 
> I don't see any men telling other men to stop having or stating their preferences so that the "average" woman isn't offended.


I don't disagree with you in the slightest.

FWIW, I am not insecure about anything penis-related. From time to time, my height (lack of it!) gets to me, but not in a "small man syndrome" kind of way. As far as something like that goes, I know it precludes me from x-amount of the population of women, so I can somewhat empathize with men who are smaller in the penis dept., I think. The ironic thing is that my smaller stature makes my already bigger than average junk look that much bigger 

Anyhoo...

My point was that - and I want to choose my words carefully, FW - that it's hard to jump aboard your train about penis size not really mattering or it being an insecurity that we men choose to embrace all on our own - all the while declaring your love for larger penises and otherwise telling men that it _does_ matter.

As I said in my previous post, anyway, it's often not insecurity, per se, that gets to us men. For some - sure. There's no way around that. For most of us who are average or above, but not huge, it's more about knowing we're more or less "adequate", and that's pretty much it.

The only reason I remember what your preference is, is because it pretty much matches me exactly. And the thing is, I am NOT "big". Nobody has, and nobody ever would, classify it as a "big penis" - which is absolutely fine by me, I _genuinely_ don't care. But to men who are in the average range and are 1-2" smaller in either dimension... they know that many (I don't want to say "most") women's preference is in this range.

Yes - we men will take this and develop insecurities, but can you blame them/us?

The only real issue I have with anything you say about the subject - and again, I want to choose my words (and tone) carefully, as it's not at all meant to be angry-sounding - is that your entire thesis on it is that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander", so to speak. It's all very much predicated upon your view that women are, and have always been, treated this way, so men - suck it up.

While that's not wrong, nor is just about everything you actually say about the topic, the underlying message is a very subtle "**** you" to men for the way women have been treated for eons.

I wouldn't say anyone here takes offense to any of this, of course, but the ones who do reply and continue the dialogue are, for the most part, not the type of men you are speaking of. The ones who justify the tables being turned, if I can use that analogy.


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## knobcreek

Ask yourself why Faithful Wife never fails to come into a thread to humiliate men, make them feel inferior, state how she only dates alpha males over 6'2, with huge c0cks and a big wallet? Knowing full well that a lot of men in here are dealing with unfaithful wives, divorce, and generally feeling like **** and disillusioned with women. And a lot of men are already hopelessly insecure.

Having an opinion for the type of men you prefer is fine and dandy, but the audience and platform she continually chooses to spout off on it shows me she's a typical woman with narcissistic tendencies, loves humiliating men, and the platform here in the Men's Clubhouse full of regular dudes dealing with terrible marital issues is the perfect place for her to destroy betas' for her pleasure. Except white knights like yeti who kiss her ass and then they get back handed compliments and they get to be her online beta orbiter (nothing more pathetic).

So gentlemen, ask yourself why this is? Does anyone really think a thread like this is the proper venue for FW to come on in and declare she only dates rich alphas, tall and handsome and well endowed? Don't most of you need that like a hole in the head? What's her motivation for this? It's to humiliate you and make you feel like ****, don't buy into it, she's damaged, that's why she does it. And all women are like this.


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## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> My point was that - and I want to choose my words carefully, FW - that it's hard to jump aboard your train about penis size not really mattering or it being an insecurity that we men choose to embrace all on our own - *all the while declaring your love for larger penises and otherwise telling men that it does matter*.
> 
> I have repeated this several times now.....I am an internet stranger. Is there some reason that MY stating MY preferences about the men I date (and about no other man by the way, I mean, why would I have a preference about a penis I'll never even see or come close to?) should cause insecurity in any man reading my words? Really think about what you are asking me.
> WHY should MY preferences make ANY man I will never meet be insecure??? I also say over and over that I'm not speaking for all women, as some do not necessarily have a preference. Again....WHY? Please ask yourselves WHY this should cause insecurity in men I will never, ever meet nor see their penis?
> 
> Yes - we men will take this and develop insecurities, but can you blame them/us?
> 
> Yes, I do blame them. And if a woman got insecure about herself after reading some internet stranger man somewhere had some preference that was not what she is, I would blame her for her own insecurity, too. Who should I blame, the internet stranger she will never meet and who will never even see her?
> 
> The only real issue I have with anything you say about the subject - and again, I want to choose my words (and tone) carefully, as it's not at all meant to be angry-sounding - is that your entire thesis on it is that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander", so to speak. It's all very much predicated upon your view that women are, and have always been, treated this way, so men - suck it up.
> 
> While that's not wrong, nor is just about everything you actually say about the topic, the underlying message is a very subtle "**** you" to men for the way women have been treated for eons.
> 
> That's how you choose to read it and also how you are reading me from behind the monitor. When I say it in person, I'm much cuter.
> 
> I wouldn't say anyone here takes offense to any of this, of course, but the ones who do reply and continue the dialogue are, for the most part, not the type of men you are speaking of. The ones who justify the tables being turned, if I can use that analogy.
> 
> Yep, and I always count on those guys to chime in just to help me make my point.


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## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> Ask yourself why Faithful Wife never fails to come into a thread to humiliate men, make them feel inferior, state how she only dates alpha males over 6'2, with huge c0cks and a big wallet? Knowing full well that a lot of men in here are dealing with unfaithful wives, divorce, and generally feeling like **** and disillusioned with women. And a lot of men are already hopelessly insecure.
> 
> Having an opinion for the type of men you prefer is fine and dandy, but the audience and platform she continually chooses to spout off on it shows me she's a typical woman with narcissistic tendencies, loves humiliating men, and the platform here in the Men's Clubhouse full of regular dudes dealing with terrible marital issues is the perfect place for her to destroy betas' for her pleasure. Except white knights like yeti who kiss her ass and then they get back handed compliments and they get to be her online beta orbiter (nothing more pathetic).
> 
> So gentlemen, ask yourself why this is? Does anyone really think a thread like this is the proper venue for FW to come on in and declare she only dates rich alphas, tall and handsome and well endowed? Don't most of you need that like a hole in the head? What's her motivation for this? It's to humiliate you and make you feel like ****, don't buy into it, she's damaged, that's why she does it. *And all women are like this*.


:lol:

So much to laugh at but the end...."all women are like this"....really takes the cake. Thanks for the chuckle, @knobcreek

Perhaps men should instead listen to you tell them all about how wh*res like me who go round and round on the c*ck carousel are out to destroy the world!!! Woo hoo, c*ck carousel!!!!!

:rofl:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Please understand @rockyMountainYeti .... calling you a White Knight is an insult. Its the same as calling you a pvssy.
> 
> (gets popcorn)


I understood that perfectly. My response was sarcasm from a man who's been married to a wonderful, attractive woman for 30 years and who's marriage is stronger than ever today. I need not explain myself further to an obviously bitter man who is most likely so as the result of a less successful relationsh (s).


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## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I understood that perfectly. My response was sarcasm from a man who's been married to a wonderful, attractive woman for 30 years and who's marriage is stronger than ever today.


(swoon!)


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## MAJDEATH

knobcreek said:


> Women want:
> 
> 1. Man over 6 feet
> 2. Man who earns over 100K a year
> 3. Man with a large penis
> 4. Man with a square jaw and rugged good looks
> 
> Any one of those attributes are anywhere from about 15% of the population (over 6 feet), to 4% of the population (makes over 100K), and a minuscule % of the population (penis over 8 inches). Any one of those are hard to come by, a combination of all of them leaves the tiniest portion of the male population to choose from as potential mates.
> 
> It's just more of the 80/20 rule, or in this case 90/2 rule. It's hypergamy 101 of which modern women subscribe to in spades. even your plainest of Jane's these days thinks she's entitled to all 4 of those attributes and won't settle for less. But the laws of attraction and nature are the bitterest of pills to swallow, they don't have the goods to demand it, and this leaves a lot of unhappy ladies out there who aren't too keen on settling. So it should be no surprise when all woman want what only the tiniest fraction of the male population actually has to offer them, hypergamy 101...
> 
> I think in 50 years only 15% of males will mate and about 40% of the women will share the top 15 % of men, the others will just ignore each other, with the bottom 60% of women not even willing to entertain the bottom 85% of men.


Sorry I arrived late to the discussion, but what an interesting topic. I have asked my W numerous times over the years what makes good husband material, and her answers don't necessary align with your 4 categories:

Height: not super important, especially if the woman is short. My W is 5'2" so basically every man is taller than her. She would make a terrible witness to a crime, because she describes every man as tall.

Income: not as important as debt to income. If you make less, but don't live beyond your means and have little debt with a plan to pay off the rest, you're doing good in her book. And bonus if you are not giving up half your income in child support and alimony.

Peen size: again not as important compared to how you use it. Some bigger guys have bedded a lot of ladies and may have had a disease or 2 over the yrs. And some smaller fellas can do things with their tongues that take it to a whole new level, before using their peen to "rock it like a hurricane", so pure size is not as important.

Looks: this is more subjective as sometimes you see average guys with models. It depends on how she sees him in her mind's eye. Of course, if he has the skills in the above paragraph, she might be blinded by orgasms







.


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## knobcreek

Faithful Wife said:


> :lol:
> 
> So much to laugh at but the end...."all women are like this"....really takes the cake. Thanks for the chuckle, @knobcreek
> 
> Perhaps men should instead listen to you tell them all about how wh*res like me who go round and round on the c*ck carousel are out to destroy the world!!! Woo hoo, c*ck carousel!!!!!
> 
> :rofl:


I could care less which c0cks you carousel on. My point stands, the audience and platform you choose to proclaim your preferences for men (one that is obviously not typical and meant to make men feel insecure) is meant to belittle, further demoralize, and humiliate the beta men here who don't know better,and likely already lost their wife to an affair. Why you do it? I have no idea what your motivation is. but it's not atypical, a lot of women enjoy humiliating men.


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## TheTruthHurts

You guys all crack me up.

Those stats you stated don't make sense to me - 96% of people make under 100k? Idk but most of the STEM college grads start at 60-80k range and many over 100k. So that's starting salary but of course college debt must be taken into account

Perhaps these numbers are correct - if so then I guess it shows we all live in our own bubbles. In my world, 100k is the poor end of things. But it would also explain why none of these insecurities or difficulty finding women resonates either. And I'd point out that the women aren't gold diggers - they're STEM grads themselves also making over 100k

And if you're in the (alleged) 96% you shouldn't be insecure about the over 100k "takin yur women" because it doesn't work that way. People tend to stay in their cultural and economic groups (I'm not defining cultural groups by race BTW) and "moving up" economically is much harder than you'd think. When you change economic groups you stand out like a sore thumb and no one likes to feel that way. On a very quick reflection I can immediately think of only 2 moms around me that were "hopping on xxxx" in their past, and frankly they talk and act so differently that it's noticeable.

Not judging - I like them - my point is that in every group the men and women are pretty equal in terms of power, even though guys tend to give more power to women (like in this discussion where @Faithful Wife is assumed to be some vixen who lords over the masses of mere men). In fact, unless she's trolling among lower socioeconomic guys, you men have equal power of discrimination in choosing a mate.

I think the blow to your self esteem from marital issues just puts you too far into the dumps to realize that the women don't have any real better choices than you.

The size of my member was only a thought I had myself as I've grown up, and only from a curious standpoint. Mine works just fine and that's all that really matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Finwe

GusPolinski said:


> Regular, spontaneous BJs to completion without any expectation of reciprocation should do the trick.


I am thinking this is the solution to world peace. :smile2:


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## MAJDEATH

So OP told her husband her preference while in the middle of a frank discussion. What's wrong with that? I would prefer a taller woman, but my W more than makes up for her 5'2" height in other ways.


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## MAJDEATH

They do make a slip-on device to add an inch or 2 of length and girth, and some vibrate too. Problem solved!


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## Fozzy

TheTruthHurts said:


> In my world, 100k is the poor end of things.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear things are better up on Big Rock Candy Mountain.


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## Holdingontoit

I agree with the advice that if a woman makes a negative comment on her man's penis, the way to "make it better" is not to apologize verbally but to show him through behavior how much you love his penis.

That is as much of a no-brainer as the advice not to make negative comments about your man's penis, because the only thing that will accomplish is either ending the relationship or obliging you to spend lots of time adoring his penis. If you don't like his penis, don't tell him, just leave.


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## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> I could care less which c0cks you carousel on. My point stands, the audience and platform you choose to proclaim your preferences for men (one that is obviously not typical and meant to make men feel insecure) is meant to belittle, further demoralize, and humiliate the beta men here who don't know better,and likely already lost their wife to an affair. Why you do it? I have no idea what your motivation is. but it's not atypical, a lot of women enjoy humiliating men.


And you choose the audience of TAM to spout off about how feminism ruins everything and how poor wittle mens are the victims of women.

And TAM is the "appropriate" place to spout this because....why exactly? Because you feel you need to warn men and make them feel insecure about how all women will ruin their lives and are evil feminists? How is this relevant to the average discussion here?

I'm just doing my part to stand up and say things that make you (and other men who say such ridiculous things) look silly, with my irreverent and blatant style. Tra la la!


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## knobcreek

I'll leave it to the readers to decide why @faithfulwife chooses the men's clubhouse, particularly topics where she's bound to find men dealing with unfaithful wives, insecurity issues about themselves, their height, their general attractiveness towards women, fears of lonliness to incessantly spout about her only dating men 6'2, with large cocks, and who are wealthy (check out any small **** topic or a man worried he's not good enough for a woman for confirmation of this), thus reinforcing their initial insecurities and making them feel marketably worse. It's an odd soap box she jumped on, and an odd audience she directs her words at for sure. it would be like me jumping into the ladies lounge and a topic where a women is concerned being heavy will force her husband to leave or she won't be able to find someone, and I chime in unsolicited on how hot I am and tell her that I only date size 2 and below, with D-Cups. It's just ****ing weird...

I have my assumptions on why she does this, but everyone can decide for themselves. I think the reason is very transparent, she wants to further humiliate these men, make these men feel even more inferior and insecure. It somehow makes her feel better about herself.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong, who knows, but if Sir Galahad is against me I'm pretty sure I'm right...


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## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> I'll leave it to the readers to decide why @faithfulwife chooses the men's clubhouse, particularly topics where she's bound to find men dealing with unfaithful wives, insecurity issues about themselves, their height, their general attractiveness towards women, fears of lonliness to incessantly spout about her only dating men 6'2, with large cocks, and who are wealthy (check out any small **** topic or a man worried he's not good enough for a woman for confirmation of this), thus reinforcing their initial insecurities and making them feel marketably worse. It's an odd soap box she jumped on, and an odd audience she directs her words at for sure. it would be like me jumping into the ladies lounge and a topic where a women is concerned being heavy will force her husband to leave or she won't be able to find someone, and I chime in unsolicited on how hot I am and tell her that I only date size 2 and below, with D-Cups. It's just ****ing weird...
> 
> I have my assumptions on why she does this, but everyone can decide for themselves. I think the reason is very transparent, she wants to further humiliate these men, make these men feel even more inferior and insecure. It somehow makes her feel better about herself.
> 
> Or maybe I'm totally wrong, who knows, but if Sir Galahad is against me I'm pretty sure I'm right...


True story...before I came to TAM I didn't know the red pill existed. Back then, TAM regularly had long ongoing threads about all that nonsense. We'd all go round and round for a hundred pages and never really get anywhere. Back then there were a lot of red piller men around here and they were very happy to tell women a lot of things....such as....

*you're washed up and old by the time you hit 28, and your "sex rank" plummets from there onward in time...whereas men always get better as they get older

*you have no intrinsic value to the world, only men do (because men made all the roads, buildings, etc) and you are just parasites on men, other than making babies which is all you are good for and we wish we didn't need you for that, either

*things were better in the "old days" when the average man could have any woman he wanted due to economics, and women had no choice in who they would be with, and back then women could be "put in their place" by men

*all women actually want to be raped, that's why they write letters to serial killers in prison

I decided to dedicate myself to slapping down this nonsense way back when I came here.

And here I am, still slapping it down!

As long as you or any guy is still here spouting the same crap, I'll be here slapping it down.

I love how you went the extra mile to try to call out @rockyMountainYeti for committing the unforgivable crime of acting like a decent gentleman to me on this forum and considering multiple points of view, even if he disagrees. It really makes you look bad when you do that, even though you were trying to make him look bad. But hey, feel free to continue on! And I will do the same.


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## TX-SC

Not sure where all of this vitriol is coming from? I can certainly see both sides to this and I understand that ultimately, men (and women) need to just realize that there are some things we can change and some we cannot. Work on the things you can change and just live with what you can't. No matter who you are, and how big or little your penis is, there is someone who will love you as you are. 

It's fine for people to have preferences. I love my wife of 21 years. She is a great companion, a hard worker, and a great mother. Plus, she gorgeous! She's also not nearly as full of herself as SOME women appear to be. That's my preference. Others really like women who constantly brag about their ability to bang guys with certain attributes. That's cool. Everybody has a preference.


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## Blondilocks

Hey, y'all! Not to be a wet blanket; but, please stop with evading the swear filter with the cutesy spellings as I don't want to see some of my favorite posters get banned.


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## TheTruthHurts

Blondilocks said:


> Hey, y'all! Not to be a wet blanket; but, please stop with evading the swear filter with the cutesy spellings as I don't want to see some of my favorite posters get banned.




Good point b***y l**ks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

knobcreek said:


> I'll leave it to the readers to decide why @faithfulwife chooses the men's clubhouse, particularly topics where she's bound to find men dealing with unfaithful wives, insecurity issues about themselves, their height, their general attractiveness towards women, fears of lonliness to incessantly spout about her only dating men 6'2, with large cocks, and who are wealthy.....


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## Blondilocks

TheTruthHurts said:


> Good point b***y l**ks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's *****locks to you!:x


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## phillybeffandswiss

LOL.

I will never understand why some women and men believe the clubhouses are gender specific. I love these discussion because I enjoy the misandry and misogyny on both sides while, watching people actually making the same arguments and not realizing they are on the same side, but just propping up their own gender.

oh and it also gives me a laugh to watch stats pop up, which are poorly ran surveys or just plain mathematically infinitesimal.


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## alexm

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL.
> 
> I will never understand why some women and men believe the clubhouses are gender specific. I love these discussion because I enjoy the misandry and misogyny on both sides while, watching people actually making the same arguments and not realizing they are on the same side, but just propping up their own gender.
> 
> oh and it also gives me a laugh to watch stats pop up, which are poorly ran surveys or just plain mathematically infinitesimal.


Bah, you're no fun! :grin2:

I quite like engaging FW, even if she doesn't enjoy the reverse. She makes me think, and that's a good thing. My views on topics have changed quite a bit since I've been here and she's been a major part of that. Even though I don't think she likes me much, I fancy her a lot!


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## Faithful Wife

alexm said:


> phillybeffandswiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.
> 
> I will never understand why some women and men believe the clubhouses are gender specific. I love these discussion because I enjoy the misandry and misogyny on both sides while, watching people actually making the same arguments and not realizing they are on the same side, but just propping up their own gender.
> 
> oh and it also gives me a laugh to watch stats pop up, which are poorly ran surveys or just plain mathematically infinitesimal.
> 
> 
> 
> Bah, you're no fun!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I quite like engaging FW, even if she doesn't enjoy the reverse. She makes me think, and that's a good thing. My views on topics have changed quite a bit since I've been here and she's been a major part of that. Even though I don't think she likes me much, I fancy her a lot!
Click to expand...

@alexm don't be silly, you're one of my favorites here! We've been through so many of these threads...and I always enjoy our banter. Sometimes we get off on such a tangent that everyone else leaves the thread because we're having so much fun with it they are like "whatever you guys".


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## Satya

So, @poorchoices, the OP, made a whopping 2 posts on this thread, including the first. 

It's grown so far outside of the spirit of the original question/problem. I don't see her returning any time soon.


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## alexm

They bailed long before it went off the rails. It happens. Most of us should know that by now, that a high percentage of new posters are driveby's. Regardless, it often sparks interesting, if not heated, discussions.

I actually think this thread kept on topic, somewhat. If anything, she got first-hand accounts of how people feel about the subject.


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