# Drifting Apart?



## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I've been feeling frustrated lately. As I've discussed before, I've been struggling with a low-sex drive for numerous reasons. My husband's sex-drive seems higher than ever. I probably only physically crave sex once a month (around when I'm ovulating). At any rate, I try to have sex with my husband around 2 times a week since I know once-a-month is not fair to him. 

I guess I'm feeling a little resentful because it seems like even 2 times a week is not enough. After sex, he seems happy for the first day or two. Then he starts making all these sexual comments, gestures, and I can tell that sex is really on his mind again. 

The problem is that I don't find all these gestures attractive at all. For instance, he will rush into the room while I'm changing and go "oooh" and raise his eyebrows. When I'm showering, he'll be right there opening the shower door. And he's always trying to show me his erection saying "look what happened." When I'm on the floor doing crunches he'll ask "can you do that in a bikini?" I honestly feel smothered sometimes, and like sex is all that is on his mind. I feel bad because I end up feeling like I just want some SPACE. I feel guilty because I feel like I should be enjoying this attention, but I'm not.

I wish we could find some things that we really enjoy together. I have so much that I love to do, but he has no interest in doing it. I recently finished my first half-marathon. Four kids later, I was tired of feeling frumpy and out-of-shape. So a couple of months ago, I decided enough was enough and I started jogging. It was hard, yeah. It wasn't always fun. But I finished the half in 2:10. It feels great to be back in shape! I've tried to encourage my husband to go and get some exercise, but he's always like "no. I'll just stay here and get fat." 

We have no t.v. shows that we watch together. Instead, he usually watches television while I read or work online. Recently I did discover a mini-series that I LOVE. I wanted him to watch it with me. Nope. So I'm now watching it with a group of friends. He seems sad when I go out to watch it with them. 

So I'm worried because I sometimes feel like we're drifting further apart, and I don't always find his sexual advances appealing. I would find it so much more of a turn-on if he gave me some space, went out, and did something for himself! 

Does anyone have any advice? Am I a total jerk for feeling this way???


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mt4,
You need to be really straight with him about this. Some emotional alcohol will make the surgery more tolerable. 

You could start by thanking him for being a hard worker and solid provider. And a good dad. 

And then tell him you are sorry your body is not responding the way you wish it would from a desire standpoint. 

If possible, tell him what kinds of things are turn ons as well as the list of things that are turn offs. 

And it is fair to ask him why he doesn't want to exercise with you.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mt4,
> You need to be really straight with him about this. Some emotional alcohol will make the surgery more tolerable.
> 
> You could start by thanking him for being a hard worker and solid provider. And a good dad.
> ...


Thanks for the response. I don't want to hurt his feelings, but I do find some of the things he does when he wants sex a major turn-off. I would find it attractive if he took the initiative to exercise and to find some hobbies that he enjoys (besides television or playing on his phone). I don't want to be controlling though. 

I would love it if he would hug me, or put his arm around me and kiss me. Maybe if he grabbed both of my hands, looked me in the eyes and said that he loved me. I just don't enjoy the groping, the penis showing, the endless sexual comments. I'm not sure why. Maybe it seems juvenile??


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Sounds like his desire for you is much higher than yours for him.
Your sexual rank is higher than his and he isn't doing anything to increase his. As you continue to improve upon yourself and spend time away from him (find more reasons to spend time away from him), he may eventually get the signals you are sending him and do what is necessary to increase his sexual rank to come closer to yours. I believe his complacency is a turn off for you...if he was more interested in actively participating with you beside the sexual connection, you'd have more desire for him.

best of luck...


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

IndyTM said:


> Sounds like his desire for you is much higher than yours for him.
> Your sexual rank is higher than his and he isn't doing anything to increase his. As you continue to improve upon yourself and spend time away from him (find more reasons to spend time away from him), he may eventually get the signals you are sending him and do what is necessary to increase his sexual rank to come closer to yours. I believe his complacency is a turn off for you...if he was more interested in actively participating with you beside the sexual connection, you'd have more desire for him.
> 
> best of luck...


You could very well be right. We're definitely opposites in many ways. I'm very driven and have a type A personality. He's easy-going and not always very motivated. He's a wonderful loyal husband and provider, and I do love him. But I just don't always feel that we have the greatest connection and I struggle with drive and attraction, I guess. 

I'm now training for a marathon, and am in the best shape of my life. I grew my hair out, and am trying to dress stylishly. I'm also passionate about so many things that he doesn't even care to talk about. It's disconcerting because sometimes I feel like the things that drew us together (we balanced each other out) are the things that are now driving us apart.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Tell him.....so easy, yet so hard.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Apart from MEMs advice, some thoughts on doing things together:



momtwo4 said:


> We have no t.v. shows that we watch together. Instead, he usually watches television while I read or work online. Recently I did discover a mini-series that I LOVE. I wanted him to watch it with me. Nope. So I'm now watching it with a group of friends. He seems sad when I go out to watch it with them.


Understanding that you are upset that he won't watch your show with you, why won't you watch his shows? Is there a possibility that he is (wrongly, but perhaps at least a tiny bit understandably) wondering why he should do something for you that you won't do with him? Perhaps ask him to watch two show a week together, one that you pick and one that he picks. That shows him your willingness to meet half way.

With respect to the exercise, is he open to more fun activities, like bike riding or hiking in a park? Something that is more activity and less "exercise"?

Finally, what friends does he have? Any way to encourage him to do things with them, even if it is just going out for trivia night or something once a week? Do you know his friends well enough to subtly encourage that?

It is difficult with him not being here to give advice. There is a lot I would tell him, but since you are here, I have to give the suggestions to you. Some of which is figuring out ways to encourage him.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Apart from MEMs advice, some thoughts on doing things together:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a good point about the television. I could try to do that. As far as the activity, he might be. He does have a bike that he occasionally rides. But he just doesn't seem to have motivation to do much activity of any sort regularly. Maybe I will encourage him to start biking. He really needs exercise of some sort. I think it would help his frame of mind. He has some friends, but they don't do much together. I wish they would. My girlfriends and I are always planning get-togethers, but the guys just don't plan much. I don't know why. I'll keep encouraging him. 

Thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate it!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> That's a good point about the television. I could try to do that. As far as the activity, he might be. He does have a bike that he occasionally rides. But he just doesn't seem to have motivation to do much activity of any sort regularly. Maybe I will encourage him to start biking. He really needs exercise of some sort. I think it would help his frame of mind. He has some friends, but they don't do much together. I wish they would. My girlfriends and I are always planning get-togethers, but the guys just don't plan much. I don't know why. I'll keep encouraging him.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate it!


I am a bit similar, in that I tend not to plan activities with my friends as much as my wife does. I am getting better at it, but it is a weakness of mine. My wife compliments me by doing that, including arranging get togethers with groups of friends, both mine and hers, including spouses. A while back, we got together for a picnic that included a kickball game with families. Another time, the guys ended up playing basketball. My wife had some very nice things to say after watching me sweat and compete for a bit. She is a lower desire, but got pretty warmed up herself watching me. It also helped because while we were doing things together, we did not actually spend large amounts of time together right next to each other. It gave us a bit of space if you will.

I am just thinking out loud and throwing some ideas out there that might be of help.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I think a lot of us guys have been guilty of being juvenile at least once (me? Maybe more than once) when it comes to sex. I have found that there's a period after sex when I'm satisfied, then a period after that where I'm horny and trying to be nice, then I move into the juvenile behavior. 

For me, that spans a week since I'd be happy with sex 2-3 times a week. But if your husband would be happy with sex 7+ times a week, he's going to hit juvenileville after a couple of days.

I think you have to be honest with him. He turns you off by doing that, you are trying to meet his sexual needs by having sex twice per week and him being juvenile about it makes it less likely that you are going to have sex with him.

As for exercise and TV, again there needs to be compromise. My wife will watch her shows and I may sit next to her reading, but we're together. Then I may watch mine and she'll put her head in my lap and just lay there for the non-sexual intimacy that she needs.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Would you prefer your husband make those comments about another woman? Ok, he's a horndog, but at least he's a horndog for you and not the woman next door or some woman at work. I'm sure it can be frustrating for you, but imagine the frustration of wives (or husbands) who never get approving looks or sexual gestures from their mate. I would be pretty thrilled to know my wife got horny just from the sight of me....or for any other reason. If you're having that kind of effect on him, you must look pretty amazing and you've gotta feel great about that. Lots of women spend a fortune, diet, work themselves silly at the gym, and still can't get a positive reaction from their husband. Maybe he doesn't want to feed his inner homosexual by watching some tear-jerking chick flick series with you, but I'm sure there are other activities you both would enjoy. My wife and I love riding motorcycles and taking the dogs for walks out in the woods. I don't especially care to watch the man-hating channel (Lifetime) with her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post by unbelievable is nonsense. 

If he cannot act like a man - which includes the ability to not do things that specifically turn his wife OFF - if he can't show restraint he can jerk off more. 

Certain behaviors are turn offs for an ld partner. This is suffocation by hypersexualizing the environment. 

Mt4,
Your h sounds like a great guy. He just doesn't understand. 

There are a lot of reasons we have not traversed the path of sexual demise. One of them is that I don't do this crap because she hit me hard on it early on.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

I wish we could find some things that we really enjoy together. 


I think this has a lot to do with why you're feeling the way you are; however, the activities can't always be what YOU want. You mentioned H has a bike; do you have one as well? Is this something you BOTH could do together? Watching TV - the others have great advice....you both need to be open to watching each others shows together. And doing so, doesn't mean while his show is on you're reading, etc. Spending time together is just that - spending time together. Maybe a weekly date night where every other week you're each responsible for planning the activity? 

As far as the sexual innuendo stuff - I think it depends on how the message is delivered. If you're thinking his motivation for saying/doing it is to get sex from you, then I could see why it's turning you off. But he may be thinking he's being loving and paying you compliments. I think you should be honest about how it's making you feel. It may surprise him!


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Certain behaviors are turn offs for an ld partner. This is suffocation by hypersexualizing the environment.


This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I am trying to make him happy sexually, and I enjoy the connection when we are sexually intimate. But I feel smothered when I can't change without him waltzing into the room or when I ask him to look at a small bump on my shoulder and he tells me "it's a not-enough-sex" bump. He's pretty much "on me" like clockwork with the comments/groping 48 hours after our last sexual encounter.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Would you prefer your husband make those comments about another woman? Ok, he's a horndog, but at least he's a horndog for you and not the woman next door or some woman at work. I'm sure it can be frustrating for you, but imagine the frustration of wives (or husbands) who never get approving looks or sexual gestures from their mate. I would be pretty thrilled to know my wife got horny just from the sight of me....or for any other reason. If you're having that kind of effect on him, you must look pretty amazing and you've gotta feel great about that. Lots of women spend a fortune, diet, work themselves silly at the gym, and still can't get a positive reaction from their husband. Maybe he doesn't want to feed his inner homosexual by watching some tear-jerking chick flick series with you, but I'm sure there are other activities you both would enjoy. My wife and I love riding motorcycles and taking the dogs for walks out in the woods. I don't especially care to watch the man-hating channel (Lifetime) with her.


I'd love it if he gave me a compliment like "you are a beautiful woman." Or "You look so amazing after having four babies. I'm so proud of you for working out like you have." But he doesn't say things like that. Instead, he gropes my butt, or shows me his penis, or makes some sexual innuendo. I wouldn't mind the innuendos or groping occasionally, but it is a turn-off all of the time.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I've been feeling frustrated lately. As I've discussed before, I've been struggling with a low-sex drive for numerous reasons. My husband's sex-drive seems higher than ever. I probably only physically crave sex once a month (around when I'm ovulating). At any rate, I try to have sex with my husband around 2 times a week since I know once-a-month is not fair to him.
> 
> I guess I'm feeling a little resentful because it seems like even 2 times a week is not enough. After sex, he seems happy for the first day or two. Then he starts making all these sexual comments, gestures, and I can tell that sex is really on his mind again.
> 
> ...


A couple of things.

1) Have you tracked how often you have sex? I noted you said that you try to have sex twice a week. Are those efforts successful, or do you find yourself bailing out quite a bit?

2) How is the quality of the sex you do have? Do you do things he likes, or does it tend to be vanilla and uninspired? You said you are into it for the connection and not the physical pleasure, so is it possible you are not enthusiastic enough during the act? As a higher-D guy, I can tell you there is a huge difference between "my wife knocks my socks off twice a week" and "my wife just lays there twice a week".

3) Those things you are suggesting he do (exercise, hang out with his friends) - are those things you feel would make him more attractive to you, or just things that you want him to do for other reasons (give you a break, for instance)? If you feel this will make him genuinely more attractive to you, tell him so. If you are thinking that watching TV or exercising with you will reduce his sexual need (as in he is really seeking closeness and not sex), you'll probably find this is not the case.

4) How much time do you devote to other endeavors? Are the household responsibilities (maintaining the home, child rearing, earning money) evenly allocated? You say he does not do much but hang around the house. Could that mean he's just flat-out at the maximum of what he can do (and he's seeing you taking time to go out and do stuff for yourself)?

First of all, it seems that you are lamenting the gap in your sex drives without diminishing his or otherwise bashing him. That's a healthy attitude to have and essential to resolving this well. Good for you!

You are in a tough spot. And I would say that, yes, you guys are drifting apart. I know that I could not stay connected to someone who was not meeting my sexual need - maybe unpleasant, but reality nonetheless.

He probably feels like he's getting the short end of the stick. I'm guessing that, because you say you're strugging with LD, you were not always this way. But now, it may seem now that you have a nice-sized family you are moving on to other things.

Truth be told, you have done that - to an extent at least. Now, you have better things to do than have sex with him. He might think he's giving everything he has to you and the kids, keeping nothing for himself, while you are doing things on your own rather than improving your drive and meeting his need.

So, the first thing I would recommend is that you take stock of where you are with your life right now. What are your priorities right now? Regaining your sex drive? Preserving your family unit? Raising your kids? Physical fitness and activity? This is not at all intended as a value judgment. It is just food for thought.

Second, with priorities in mind, decide how to act. Know that the best bet at a close bond with your husband is with him being sexually fulfilled. Failing that, he will need to agree that your other objectives are more important than his sex drive. Just keep in mind that, with four children, you probably cannot do it all and will have to give up some things to do others.

Third, communicate with him - honestly and openly. Certainly start by telling him you know he is not fulfilled sexually. Add that the way he goes about seeking sex is counter-productive and turns you off. But, do suggest things (if any) that will improve your drive - don't say it if it won't.

If keeping him happy (per se or for the sake of the family) is your priority, tell him so and reassure him that you will do as much as you possibly can to meet his need (having more sex, having better sex, or whatever else it takes). And then do it. 

If, OTOH, his sexual fulfillment is not a priority (as in you cannot be happy while putting in the effort he needs), you need to be honest with this as well. Tell him where you stand with your life. If he is still important to you but you don't know where to start with your sexuality, tell him so and ask for his patience to see if your drive comes back.

If you see the sexual emphasis in your life as over (not zero sex, more like you don't intend to work on improving your drive), tell him so. Note (gently) that he needs to find a way of leading a fulfilling life without as much sex from you as he would like. The goal with this scenario is to strike that balance where you both feel you are getting enough from the other to make the marriage worthwhile.

My best guess is that your husband likes sex a lot and is not likely to change soon. It is not a situation where he is using sex as a proxy for other forms of attention. And, sex twice a week is really just low average - not much at all for an HD person.

That being the case, continued failure to meet his sexual need will lead to further drifting apart. You correctly note some of this taking place already. The innuendos, unappealing as they are, signal he still wants you and wants you to know it. You still have his attention and, if you want it, the time to act is now.

If you two don't get on the same page sexually, he will continue to pull away. At some point, he will lose the sexual attraction (he may stop the innuendos, for instance). Once that goes, your relationship is in real trouble. You will start losing the other things he brings to the relationship as well and it may get to the point where he thinks he's better off alone and looking for someone else.

You might see this as ultimately acceptable, or something you want to avoid at all costs. But, you cannot exist in this state forever - either it will get better or worse (in all likelihood). So, you need to figure out your priorities ASAP as get a plan in motion.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO, 
I think your post is thoughtful and constructive. I also am a bit puzzled that a HD male who is sexually frustrated might think it is ok to say 'no honey, go out and run by yourself, I am just going to stay here and get fat.' 

He needs to understand that he really is contributing to the situation. 

As for his groping, wang waving, etc. It lacks mutuality as he is doing it to her, not with her. Foreplay is done WITH your partner, not to them. She needs to teach and he needs to listen.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> DTO,
> I think your post is thoughtful and constructive. I also am a bit puzzled that a HD male who is sexually frustrated might think it is ok to say 'no honey, go out and run by yourself, I am just going to stay here and get fat.'


Thank you for the positive feedback.

My is that what he says is part of him pulling back. He feels she is not doing much for him so he's not inclined to bust his rear for her, esp. not by validating an activity he sees as competing with him for her time (recall that she's running as a serious hobby, not just for fitness).

It could also be he is maxed out and running is unappealing; there is a question of who is minding the home if the OP is out with friends and training regularly. Or, he sees this as harping by someone who (due to her lack of progress in improving the sex drive) really does not have the standing to do so.

Either way, this "screw you" attitude is entirely understandable (IMO) if you consider that the H may be on the verge of checking out in a big way. That is why I exhorted the OP to figure out her priorities and act accordingly. I feel nothing is more poisonous to this situation than letting him just drift away (unless she doesn't care) and it needs to be addressed now.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> A couple of things.
> 
> 1) Have you tracked how often you have sex? I noted you said that you try to have sex twice a week. Are those efforts successful, or do you find yourself bailing out quite a bit?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insightful reply. My goal is for us to have a healthy, happy marriage. For numerous reasons, divorce is not an option for either of us. Religious/moral reasons aside, it would financially ruin us and our children. DH would have to pay child support for four children, and I would have to put them in daycare while I went back to work. I know that BOTH of us would avoid this at any cost. The sad reality is that if we don't fix this problem, we would probably stay together for the kids and live in a miserable marriage. He would feel sexually unwanted/unfulfilled, and I would constantly feel guilty and resentful. I don't want that for either of us (or for our children).

As a side note, I really thought that by having sex 2X a week (which we usually do unless he's sick or I'm on my period) was actually above average. I've chatted a bit with my friends, and did a little research on my own. According to the Kinsey Institute, we're actually ABOVE average at 2X a week. Here's the link: The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources] (Scroll down). According to this website, 47.3% of married couples in their thirties (I'm 32 and he's 34) have sex once a week to a few times a month. Only 26.8% have sex 2-3 times a week. I'm not saying that this makes it "right." Maybe this is why so many marriages are suffering. However, I did think I was being "fair" in compromising on sex 2X a week. I guess I was hoping that he would be happy with this.

As far as the quality of sex, it is not all vanilla. Well, I guess it's vanilla according to some people's standards, but he's really kind've a vanilla guy. LOL Ironically, I'm probably the more sexually adventurous of the two. For instance, he has no desire to try oral sex. I would be willing to try if he really wanted to. At any rate, I often put on lingerie. A few nights ago, I lit candles and we had a romantic time in the bathtub. 

I don't think that he would want less sex if he exercised. I DO think that he would feel better about himself if he did exercise. I know I do. If anything, running has improved my sex drive and energy levels. I still have more work to do in that area, but it has not hindered it. He just seems so unfulfilled on so many levels. I want him to "have a life," I guess. I don't find it attractive when he seems so needy and content with doing nothing or feeling sorry for himself. 

A part of me feels a little angry and resentful because I feel that I HAVE been working on our sex life. And what has he done in return for me? I don't feel like he's really done anything. Instead, he does things that I don't like, and that make it harder for me to feel sexual toward him. He's a wonderful father and a good man. I know we can make it through this. I've hopped on the wagon of self-improvement (and self-improvement in my mind equals marriage improvement). It's his turn now.


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## Jeapordy (Aug 12, 2012)

He probably isn't very good at telling you how he feels. He thinks that all of the sexual attention towards you is his way of telling you how much he loves you. He doesn't do that with anyone else. So why does he do this with you?
Maybe this is his love language? I'm not saying it is right. You obviously don't like it. But think of the alternatives. He could be making sexual advances towards other women, or he could be masturbating to porn constantly. I presume he isn't doing either of these things because he finds you beautiful and sexy and he wants to save his sexual energy for you. He thinks if he keeps pushing harder, than you will see how much he loves you and you will give in. 
If you don't find him sexy, you need to make him see that. Buy MMSL and ask him to read it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mt4,
My W and I have had a couple conversations about "average" during our marriage. I have a short answer to any wife comments about how "I" am lucky because what "I" get is more than average. 

Me: I have never aspired to be average and there is little about you which is "mid bell curve" so why are you talking about "average"?






momtwo4 said:


> Thanks for your insightful reply. My goal is for us to have a healthy, happy marriage. For numerous reasons, divorce is not an option for either of us. Religious/moral reasons aside, it would financially ruin us and our children. DH would have to pay child support for four children, and I would have to put them in daycare while I went back to work. I know that BOTH of us would avoid this at any cost. The sad reality is that if we don't fix this problem, we would probably stay together for the kids and live in a miserable marriage. He would feel sexually unwanted/unfulfilled, and I would constantly feel guilty and resentful. I don't want that for either of us (or for our children).
> 
> As a side note, I really thought that by having sex 2X a week (which we usually do unless he's sick or I'm on my period) was actually above average. I've chatted a bit with my friends, and did a little research on my own. According to the Kinsey Institute, we're actually ABOVE average at 2X a week. Here's the link: The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources] (Scroll down). According to this website, 47.3% of married couples in their thirties (I'm 32 and he's 34) have sex once a week to a few times a month. Only 26.8% have sex 2-3 times a week. I'm not saying that this makes it "right." Maybe this is why so many marriages are suffering. However, I did think I was being "fair" in compromising on sex 2X a week. I guess I was hoping that he would be happy with this.
> 
> ...


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mt4,
> My W and I have had a couple conversations about "average" during our marriage. I have a short answer to any wife comments about how "I" am lucky because what "I" get is more than average.
> 
> Me: I have never aspired to be average and there is little about you which is "mid bell curve" so why are you talking about "average"?


I don't disagree with that logic. My comments about frequency was mainly in reply to DTO's assertion that sex 2X a week is "low average." I admit that I've been tempted to think my husband should be satisfied with the frequency of sex based on these averages. Sometimes I think, "I'm already doing more than most women, and I have a LD." At the same time, however, I'm not satisfied with crotch grabbing or penis waving. And I'm sure some men would consider this to be "average" male behavior.

My point is that I agree. If we can positively impact relationships, we should move away from "average." At the same time, if I'm putting forth the effort to be more than "average", I would like to see my husband do the same.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> My point is that I agree. If we can positively impact relationships, we should move away from "average." At the same time, if I'm putting forth the effort to be more than "average", I would like to see my husband do the same.


And I bet your husband is saying;

"If we can move away from "average" we can positively impact relationships."

The problem is that you both expect the other to see your point of view and if there's no communication, it will never happen.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Thanks for your insightful reply. My goal is for us to have a healthy, happy marriage. For numerous reasons, divorce is not an option for either of us. Religious/moral reasons aside, it would financially ruin us and our children. DH would have to pay child support for four children, and I would have to put them in daycare while I went back to work. I know that BOTH of us would avoid this at any cost. The sad reality is that if we don't fix this problem, we would probably stay together for the kids and live in a miserable marriage. He would feel sexually unwanted/unfulfilled, and I would constantly feel guilty and resentful. I don't want that for either of us (or for our children).
> 
> As a side note, I really thought that by having sex 2X a week (which we usually do unless he's sick or I'm on my period) was actually above average. I've chatted a bit with my friends, and did a little research on my own. According to the Kinsey Institute, we're actually ABOVE average at 2X a week. Here's the link: The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources] (Scroll down). According to this website, 47.3% of married couples in their thirties (I'm 32 and he's 34) have sex once a week to a few times a month. Only 26.8% have sex 2-3 times a week. I'm not saying that this makes it "right." Maybe this is why so many marriages are suffering. However, I did think I was being "fair" in compromising on sex 2X a week. I guess I was hoping that he would be happy with this.
> 
> ...


Hi there! I'm glad to see your goal is for a healthy marriage, and that you found my post beneficial.

There are some other things I wanted to point out. But first, something for you to consider: when you say "it's his turn now", I curious as to what exactly you expect him to do.

Your sex life sounds vanilla. If there is not even any oral, I don't see how it could not be. Him not asking does not necessarily mean he's not into it - it could be he doesn't think you will go for it. As it is you have to push yourself to have sex twice per week with him, and I bet he senses that. There is a significant gap between his need and his experience, and that has to be resolved to have a healthy marriage. What if you just knocked his socks off one night? Don't "mail it in" or wait for him to ask.

I've seen studies that indicate 2x per week is average, although admittedly I can't remember which. And, as you noted, what composes that average is suspect. It could reflect unhappy (or even sexless) marriages, marriages where the partners are separated (say if one works away from home or is in the military), etc. You guys are young, healthy, and sleep under the same roof every night; 2x per week is simply not that much, especially if one of the partners is not enthusiastic.

Your remark that self-improvement necessarily equals marriage improvement is off base. Certainly, bringing a whole, healthy self to your marriage is essential. But, after a certain point you are improving only yourself, and at that perhaps only in limited areas. For instance, no one would argue that you getting into shape (with the attendant health, energy, and self-esteem increases) benefits both of you. But running marathons goes way beyond being healthy. I'll bet that if your serious about them, then training, traveling to events, resting, nursing injuries, etc. would take up a good chunk of your time. It's really more of a hobby that you do for personal fulfillment and not because it is a benefit to him or to the marriage as a whole. There's nothing wrong with enjoying yourself, but - again - there's only so much time to do stuff and one thing done means another thing not done. And, BTW, isn't it possible that all the running itself is negatively impacting your libido?

You are dismissive of your husband's contributions. You say he's a wonderful father, which means that he parents well, provides well, helps at home, etc. - am I right? If I am, why isn't that enough? It seems your kids are young, with at least one in pre-school (if not diapers. Who cares for them while you are training or out with your friends?

With his responsibilities and devotion to his family, does he get the same down time you do? Can he pursue his interests guilt-free to the same extent you pursue yours? He sounds like I was at one point - beat down by doing for wife and kids and being ignored as she did her own thing. That feeling (for me) did not go away until I stopped being invested in my ex - so consider this a cautionary tale. If you think you're resentful now, wait until he gets tired of being blown off and cuts you out.

So, back to my question. What is it that you want him to do? Stop groping at you (understandably)? Become more active? Are any of these things genuinely going to increase your drive, or are you just hoping to get him out of your hair some?

You need to be honest about this. You are looking at each other from across the same divide. You feel you are pushing yourself to get up to 2x per week, and he's struggling to get from whatever his optimal level of sex is down to this point. Neither of you is satisfied and you both are frustrated, which is completely understandable.

But, I feel there is a consideration you are overlooking. IMO, if you really have to struggle to get up to 2x per week then your natural drive is _really_ low. I feel these issues should be negotiated from a pespective of healthy but mismatched drives. That does not seem to be the case here. Asking him to be happy with 2x per week is basically saying he needs to accomodate your LD, rather than you resolving that issue _and then_ negotiating the sex.

I most definitely am not saying you should ignore your needs. Rather, the best way of working this out is to bring your sexually healthiest, most able self to him (even if getting to that point takes significant sacrifice) and, as part of that process, tell him what he could legitimately do that would (not maybe) get you there. Then you negotiate.

I would even consider striking a bargain with him. Do indeed tell him that the groping and crude gestures need to stop. But, affirm his drive and that it's unreasonable to expect him to treat you better and meet your needs while still getting it only 2x per week. Offer to bump up the frequency to 3x per week and try some different things in the bedroom in exchange for him not being so boorish.

I think you will see some positive results come from this. If he really is lowering your drive by his actions, then him stopping those things should cause your drive to rise and having sex 3x per week should not be a problem. If those really aren't the problems and your drive does not increase, then you should be rewarding his improved effort with improved effort of your own. Either way, it's a fair and considerate way to address this issue until your LD issues can be resolved.

Best of luck to you on this.


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## pandorabox (Dec 7, 2012)

Your post really shocked me. It felt like you were describing my life to the dot. Maybe the only difference is that my situation started over 8 years ago. Additionally my husband left all the house responsibilities to me ( bills, loans, repairs etc), became emotionally unavailable, would limit our conversations to half an hour a day and spending the rest of his time watching TV. It was hurting me more and more therefore I wasn't interested in sex, had sex only when pressured. He would act exactly as yours with idiotic sexual comments and groping. It smothered and suffocated me. It's difficult to have sex when you pressured into it, it lasts few min, you don't have any satisfaction and when you mention it you get blamed as "it's not early ejaculation but lack of sex" so it IS MY FAULT. 
I tried over the years every possible approach - talking, crying, quiet days, inviting to counseling, even running away to friends for few weeks. He would promise all the good changes just to go back to normal after day or so.
It drained me emotionally so bad that I shut him off, build the shell around myself so I couldn't feel anything anymore.

One day I realized that my life is just passing me by. I'm in the same situation financially as you so the divorce is out of question for the next 5 years at least. I confronted him and clearly stated that I have enough. I deserve to smile again, I deserve to be happy and from now on we are officially separated and just sharing the house.
He accused me that it's all because he is too old for me - he is 56 - I'm 41.
I moved out of the bedroom to theater room 8 months ago, started drinking myself to sleep realizing that even that I decided to be free - I'm stuck with him. That was even more horrible feeling - like an animal in the cage.

I don't have many friends as that much stress and pain in your marriage makes you bitter and tough and to survive you shut down all your emotions as you know probably yourself. But from those few - one showed romantic interest in me recently.

After an initial shock when he kissed me I run to process all of it.
The feelings which came to surface were like tsunami, I can't even describe how you feel when after so many years of pain and resignation somebody wants you. It's like becoming a woman for the first time. And it must emanate from you so strongly - for the next few days I got asked out by 3 customers visiting my shop.

Do not let your life sip through your fingers - give him ultimatum and if that doesn't scare him - find someone who will love you and respects you and wants you. You will find that your libido will jump out of your skin as well. Their sexual jokes and juvenile comments make sex into something vulgar and dirty. I can see sex now as the love making again even that I didn't even go that far with my friend. 

I separated all my finances from my husband's in the last few months, started my own business - we just share all the expenses and will have to till kids move out one day.

Affair is a dirty word but when I thought deep about it - I do not feel any guilt - he did everything in his power to push me away. and I did everything in my power to fix my marriage for 21 years.

Be smarter then me and don't waste that many years - live is too short and can be beautiful even when you stuck where you are. All the best XXX


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## pandorabox (Dec 7, 2012)

And funny part is that against my husband accusations my new man is 61 y.o.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pandorabox said:


> And funny part is that against my husband accusations my new man is 61 y.o.


I'm glad you found something that works for you. It's amazing how flimsy spouse's rationale for poor treatment of us seems in retrospect, isn't it?

FWIW, I feel that is a huge part of why people who mistreat their spouses try to isolate them (warnings about not to tell friends, for instance) and refuse to go to counseling. They fully know they are in the wrong and don't want to be found out.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Jeapordy said:


> He probably isn't very good at telling you how he feels. He thinks that all of the sexual attention towards you is his way of telling you how much he loves you. He doesn't do that with anyone else. So why does he do this with you?
> Maybe this is his love language? I'm not saying it is right. You obviously don't like it. But think of the alternatives. He could be making sexual advances towards other women, or he could be masturbating to porn constantly. I presume he isn't doing either of these things because he finds you beautiful and sexy and he wants to save his sexual energy for you. He thinks if he keeps pushing harder, than you will see how much he loves you and you will give in.
> If you don't find him sexy, you need to make him see that. Buy MMSL and ask him to read it.


I was thinking the same thing, that the husband's sexual advances ARE his way of telling his wife how attracted he is to her.
That he finds her so hot he can't keep his hands off of her.
OP, the next time your husband makes one of these advances you hate so much, take the time to tell him that if he would say "ABC" instead "XXX" that you would be turned on enough to have sex with him.
He's not going to change what he says to you unless you tell him what you want, it's more likely going to take several talks to get him on board, but keep trying.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

I can identify with many things you are going through. I can remember a time when i felt the same exact way you feel about sex with my H. First let me commend you in being here looking for ways to improve your marriage, and for the work you have done on your marriage and yourself thus far.

In the short time i have been in TAM, I've learned quite a bit about myself and my H. The most helpful thing I've learned is that my expectations have been unfair. And the main reason: because i was not very clear, open and honest with my H (and myself) about what those expectations were. I also only thought of my own needs and desires. Even if i was submitting to my husband's drive, i was doing it without desire. I saw sex as a chore. As i have said in my own thread, he is not totally without responsibility here, but I never took into account how my approach to sex was affecting him.

My husband is and sometimes continues to be "juvenile" about approaching me to have sex. In 15 years of marriage his "romance" or "adult seduction" techniques would rate extremely low or nonexistent. But wishing he was different and resenting him for his approach was not and is not helpful. At the same time, being honest with your spouse and sensitively explaining he has much to learn is not an easy task (but definitely worth it). I am at the very beginning stages of this process. I'm finding improvement, still get a little disappointed, but have decided to hold on to several strengths that help me stay connected to my H. 1) 15 years and 3 kids later, he still finds me attractive (and i'm no supermodel) 2) Outside of the bedroom he has made several improvements, sacrifices and changes to be a better man, H and father. 3) He genuinely wants to be a good lover. 4) he knows and loves me like no other. Look for his strengths and hold on to them for dear life.

Its also worth noting that I have changed, and given your description of yourself, i will bet that one day you drive is going to hit the roof. Now, it doesn't matter if my H is juvenile or what his approach is, my thoughts are no longer "ugh, really does he really think that's going to work", they are: "yay, I'm getting laid!!!" It's so weird because he hasn't changed at all, my approach and views about sex did. 

There are still problems and i still get disappointed because i want more now. But now i'm asking, very directly. And i learned something last night. My H has insecurities about sex, he has his own inhibitions and feels embarrassed about some things. This was downright shocking because given his experience and drive, I would've never guessed. And something clicked, perhaps the way he approaches sex is what he knows, what he feels comfortable with. Our H's know us. Your H can very well pick up on your lack of enthusiasm when it comes to sex, and being playful may make it less intimidating for him. Maybe if he is playful rejection won't be so hard. Imagine if he puts it all out there and you still don't respond. He probably has no clue his approach is actually moving you in the opposite direction. 

So after this long ass post, here is my advice: Start thinking about him and how your approach is affecting him. Ask him about it. And be honest and direct about what you need. Good luck!


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## needguidance (Aug 17, 2012)

Ina said:


> I can identify with many things you are going through. I can remember a time when i felt the same exact way you feel about sex with my H. First let me commend you in being here looking for ways to improve your marriage, and for the work you have done on your marriage and yourself thus far.
> 
> In the short time i have been in TAM, I've learned quite a bit about myself and my H. The most helpful thing I've learned is that my expectations have been unfair. And the main reason: because i was not very clear, open and honest with my H (and myself) about what those expectations were. I also only thought of my own needs and desires. Even if i was submitting to my husband's drive, i was doing it without desire. I saw sex as a chore. As i have said in my own thread, he is not totally without responsibility here, but I never took into account how my approach to sex was affecting him.
> 
> ...


I love your post. I try to pull information out of my W about things like this. Sometimes I do feel its my approach that is holding back a lot of progress. Granted I try to be gentleman about things. I dont do the groping thing (I'll hug her if she hugs me. I dont grab/smack her butt anymore, I dont try to touch her breast, I only touch in places that are non sexual), I'll kiss her cheeks and not her lips, when we sit on the couch I try to sit as far away as possible so she doesn't think I have sex on the brain, I try to make it non sexual as possible lol. It hurts like hell and Im slowly dying inside like an ice box is forming over my heart. I'm glad its killing my sex drive thank God. Atleast I can do this and not fight against my urges anymore, easy battle. I still want to be romantic and continue those things, just from a non sexual side so she sees that its never all about that. This is a rough journey but changes have to be made. I just hate when my W says "I don't know". It's like you know what makes you happy and you definitely know what turns you off. It's just saying it without hurting my feelings. The thing is if you lie and I find out the truth, thats hurts my feelings. If you can be up front and give me the 100% truth then there is nothing for me to be hurt about. If I'm learning how to treat you the way you want to be treated so that we both benefit (you get what you want in that matter you come around mentally and I get the love I want from you) then what is there to be hurt about? By the way like Ira said, ALL MEN notice when a woman isn't being enthusiastic about the task at hand. When you make comments or grunt or show any disinterest, big no no. Body language always gives women away if, the man knows how to read it. I wont even initate sex if I feel like I'm not going to enjoy it from start to finish. We smell bs a mile away lol.

Just have to be able to say whats on your mind. Sometimes you have to be brutally honest. Just take everything you have mentioned, post for post and tell this man what he has to do get you back up to speed. Now remember, you had a drive at some point, a healthy drive. Reading I am assuming you weren't always like this, otherwise you wouldnt be hurt about it because it would be your normal self. You just have to say the first thing that comes to your mind without trying to filter it, no sugarcoating it. If you never say what you want and specify in detail, you H will stay the same or he will adjust in a negative way. If you can't say what you want then atleast specify what turns you off but be able to provide an alternative that might better the situation for future events.


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## pandorabox (Dec 7, 2012)

DTO said:


> I'm glad you found something that works for you. It's amazing how flimsy spouse's rationale for poor treatment of us seems in retrospect, isn't it?
> 
> FWIW, I feel that is a huge part of why people who mistreat their spouses try to isolate them (warnings about not to tell friends, for instance) and refuse to go to counseling. They fully know they are in the wrong and don't want to be found out.


Yes, you are right - they know they are doing wrong. My husband got very upset and demanded I stop telling friends about what is going on in our marriage. I refused of course. If I don't have any support at home friends is all you have to stay sane.
My opinion they are comfortable the way things are minus sex. Mine doesn't care if I get upset that he didn't do something or forgot 100 time to pay the bill. It's like "whatever - she will nag for few minutes - I will put up with it and then she will do it herself" Over last few years he managed to do it so perfectly that I don't even ask for him to do anything as I know he will never do it. 2 years ago I organized the loan for the house, I designed the plans, I've built it, pave it, did the landscaping. He wasn't interested at all. All I could get is a glance at the plans just because I put them in front of his face. When we moved he just criticized that the windows are too big.

Phenix - you are so wrong. You thinking about different kind of people. Our husbands are identical with DTO. It doesn't matter how many times I explained to him how those comments make me feel. I gave him examples of what he can say instead hundreds of times. He would try to say something nice after that but if it didn't make me jump out of my clothes immediately he would go back to this juvenile vulgar behavior.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Pandora, Your situation seems NOTHING like the OP.


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## pandorabox (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes is does - hers is just better as she's got less problems - not that it hurts her any less


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

To the OP, I wonder if part of the problem isn't how your husband is approaching you, it's that he's approaching you at all.
I think that your issues stem from his affiar & that you just haven't fully processed your feelings about the affair & trying to R, therefore his advances are turning you off.
Even if he approached you in the manner you say you want, I still think you wouldn't be receptive.
Time to do some self reflection & figure out what the real issue is.


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