# What to do when they won't come clean?



## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hello everyone,

If your spouse has been cheating and lies on top of lies and will not admit it, what do you do if you have no proof, but you know in your heart? A therapist told me I should ask him to leave unless he comes clean. She said unfortunatly that is what it is going to take and then at that point we can begin to work on the marriage. I am afraid he will not come back if I do this, but I don't know if we will make it if I don't.

I am stuck. I love him more than I can say and we have 26 years together and two wonderful older children, one at home in HS. Any help will be appreciated.


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## LostandAlone (Jun 22, 2008)

What type of things make you so sure that he is cheating? What kind of lies is he telling and how did you know he was lying? That makes a difference but I'm assuming your therapist wouldn't go out on a limb and suggest you kick him out if they weren't pretty sure too.

My wife has been lying to me too about an emotional affair she has been having so I know where you are coming from and it sucks. I keep getting to the point where I'm ready to give up but just can't even though that may be the only way to get her to stop. I'm afraid she will just say fine and go along. That however is the tricky part because if they are willing to let you go or in your case "will not come back" then how much do they really care about the marriage?


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hello LostandAlone,

You are right about that. What the counselor said was that if they are out on their own because you have drawn the line and will not accept their lies and deceipt anymore, that they will reconsider and understand what they are losing and only then come to remorse.

I did not heed her advice so now I am in limbo and only hearing more lies. I know my husband was cheating because he was working in China for a year, making good money. I went to visit him with my daughter and he "was different" to me. I sensed it, and later I found a photo in his wallet hidden under his license of a younge Chinese woman (20 years old..he is 53) I found many other signs as well but the biggest thing was the way he was responding to me in the bedroom...no interest and avoiding intamacy. It was a big change from the usual for a sexually active man through the whole 26 years together.

LIES:

The morning after I confronted him with the photo and a piece of paper in his wallet I had found with the writing on it "dream touching your face sleeping on my bosom" and her phone number on the other side, I asked him to burn it in front of me. He responded that I took it the night before...so it disappeared and he lied as I didn't take them. (I SHOULD have...what an idiot!)

A week later after telling me he would agree to work on the marriage he sent her a $200 VISA card (I caught him by finding the receipts for her address sent by DHL and the VISA card purchase) He told me it was to close up his office over there and ship things back (fax machine, laptop, clothes) which he promised me he would do because I told him if he ever went to China again we would be done. He said she did things for him, (I BET she did!) and he thought I would go nuts and so was avoiding a confrontation.. (he had a makeshift office for a business he started) He then told me the VISA card he sent her was a "temporary" one and that he had the "permanent" one. I then checked at the place he purchased it since I saw the receipts and there is no such thing...a VISA gift card is just that...no temp card with it. 

So after him promising me to be a changed husband and "start fresh" with the marriage, I am starting on lies. The therapist, and a very experienced one I must add said he has been living two lives. I have been working on changing myself and have always been a good wife I feel. But I am not perfect by any means and know I can change, and that there is always two sides. I feel I must have done something wrong to have this happen, but where he travels all of the time for his work, it is not healthy for the marriage.
Now I am questioning whether he is really breaking it off with her because he sent her this money, and with the last lie I think it was just another one on top of another.


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## justean (May 28, 2008)

i actually believe when a hubby works away, there is no doubt about it, they live 2 lives.
i can give a situation, but its not a couple. my nan (rip) and i thought alot of her. well for the last 15 years of her life, she left where we live to go to liverpool. its about a 4 hr drive from us in wales.
but never the less and this was just my nan, but we all noticed the changes.
we would go to see her at different intervals. n e way, she would tell you how bad the family up there would treat her and we were appalled. never visited, would drive past her home etc etc.
then when she would come down here, she would backlash the family again from liverpool in a nastier way.
however when she went back home, she would tell them how bad we all treated her. 
talk about a double header and having two lives.
n e way she was diagnosed with cancer and two weeks b 4 she dies, she had a little holiday , only a hotel , but none of our family down here were invited.infact we did not even know, until her funeral. it was all the liverpool lot that got invited. 
so our family all travel to liverpool. well at her funeral it was the strangest of funeral. it was like one big family, but with a massive divide. i actually blame my nan for that. whenever we went to see her , we never mixed with family up there because she said they did not want us . but the only person that knew the truth and what she was doing was the one in the middle (nan)
i know that an odd story, but i suppose my morel in this, is the only person that lied was my nan. the one that knew the truth was my nan. and the fact that ppl can live two lives. but you wil never know the whole truth. lies dont stop - hes told to many of them.
and you will never know what kind of person he has made you out to be. half the time wedding bands come of easy.
its only what your prepared to put up with.


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## LostandAlone (Jun 22, 2008)

cao428 said:


> Hello LostandAlone,
> 
> You are right about that. What the counselor said was that if they are out on their own because you have drawn the line and will not accept their lies and deceit anymore, that they will reconsider and understand what they are losing and only then come to remorse.
> 
> I did not heed her advice so now I am in limbo and only hearing more lies.


This is so hard. From what I'm reading you and I sound very much alike in how we deal with our spouses and ourselves. It's true that the only way they will understand what they are losing is to actually face the reality of losing it however, for people like you and me it's just so hard to take the chance of being the one to send them away. In my case separation isn't really an option so my only choice is to start the divorce process and hope that is the taste of reality she needs. To be honest it probably wouldn't bother her if we could separate because then she would be free to carry the affair without anyone looking over her shoulder. The same may be true with your husband. 



> I found many other signs as well but the biggest thing was the way he was responding to me in the bedroom...no interest and avoiding intimacy. It was a big change from the usual for a sexually active man through the whole 26 years together.


I again can relate. Loss of intimacy is almost always a symptom of someone having an affair. Even when my wife is affectionate it seems forced. Basically their intimate feelings are currently with someone else. It stinks but makes sense that it would happen.



> I told him if he ever went to China again we would be done.


I told myself the same thing, that if my wife ever went back to the state where he lives that would be it.....but now she has started dropping hints that her sister who lives in the same state as him keeps bothering her to go and visit. I am sure she would use it as an opportunity to see him and most likely consummate the affair if they didn't already however, now I am thinking that the only way for this to end is for her to be away from me which she never likes and hopefully see that he's not all she's built him up to be. Not to mention a lot of guilt thrown in. Unfortunately for both you and I, this may be our only chance to save the marriage however it will be damn near impossible to sit by and let it happen. 



> The therapist, and a very experienced one I must add said he has been living two lives.


I think that is part of the excitement people get from having an affair.



> I have been working on changing myself and have always been a good wife I feel. But I am not perfect by any means and know I can change, and that there is always two sides. I feel I must have done something wrong to have this happen


This is where we are even more similar. My wife like most people having an affair try to push the blame on to the other person. This makes them feel less guilty and makes you stop focusing on their behavior. The truth is no one is perfect and there is no one to blame but them. This is a hard one for me because I know I'm not a perfect husband and like to take the blame because then I have some control, but the truth is that there is only 1 person responsible for the affair and that is them. Did we maybe make them vulnerable to one? Probably but it was their choice alone to stray from the marriage and they know it.



> Now I am questioning whether he is really breaking it off with her because he sent her this money, and with the last lie I think it was just another one on top of another.


My wife has never admitted to the affair, she uses the "just friends" lie and "he lives 2000 miles away, what am I going to do" cover. Regardless of how obvious it is that there is much more to it, if you can't 100% prove it they will exploit that to their advantage.

I am not the best person for giving advice on this topic as I have not been able to stay strong and do what I know I have to however, I can say truthfully that as long as the other man or woman only exist through phone calls, emails or text messages, they will stay perfect in our spouses minds while we in our anger and sadness "push them away"

Good luck cao428, keep us updated.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes my husband uses the "just friends" line too about her. It's hard to stay strong when we are in torment, and I know what you are going through! 

I have been going to the club to work out, but after the last lie just before he left about the gift visa card, I got depressed and so stopped going. I am going to try to pick that up again because it will make me feel better. Can you exercise in anyway? It will help the stress some. I also found music extremely helpful as some kind of therapy.

I know what you mean about how they view the other person. We are the ones who have been wronged and are unhappy and angry as a result. We are the victims..but we have to try not to focus on those negative thoughts as hard as it is. It's not easy!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi cao428!

I wish I could offer some advice, but I've got the same problem as you. Our counselor has taken a different route. He says only ask my husband something once and accept his explanation. He says over time, my husband will start to open up. Well, that isn't working either. You can see how successfull that has been, if you read my post under "I'm Losing Patience". 

Your therapist advocates a stronger and more direct approach. I'm not sure that will work either. If he moves out because of his secrets, it will actually be benefiting him. My husband moved out several months ago. My lawyer says he moved out to have greater freedom. This is how he can cheat and not have to hide it and lie. This is one place where I feel the divorce lawyer is ahead of the counselor.

Hang in there! I feel your pain. I, too, have been in a long-term marriage. I don't want to walk away either. However, I don't know how much more of the torture and cruelty I can take. Each time a piece of "evidence" hits me in the face, I end up crying the whole day. The rejection just gets to be too much.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug!

It sounds like your counselor isn't giving you the right advice. Of course even though I think mine did, I didn't do what she said. Mine was actually Dr. Ellen Kreidman. I did a phone session with her for $75 for 1/2 hour. She is very direct and strong and has been on tv. But you CAN get a one time free email counsel with her if that helps.
Marriage Counseling - Marriage Problems Solved Without Marriage Counseling

She told me that only when I told him he was done and I was going for a divorce and threw him out would he possibly turn around. She said if he didn't well then maybe I didn't want him anyway.

Instead, I told him that I still believed something happened over in China last year, but I was willing to let it go if he promised to be a better husband to me and I in turn would be a better wife to him, and we could start fresh. I bought the tapes Light his fire on Amazon for $20 (cassettes) used, and Light her fire for him for the same instead of th CDs off of Dr. Ellen's website for $109 each. He agreed to the deal and said he's listen to the tapes. He was definitely nicer to me and we started to get intimate again, took a dance lesson together, and then he left on another 30-day job on the west coast (not in China) 

On the way to the airport he told me another lie about the VISA card he sent to China (I believe I already wrote about that) and then I discovered the $3000 cash he had in an envelope was gone from his gun safe. My daughter and I are planning a trip out to see him in July and last night he called me to discuss the money and how much it is going to cost. His company is paying for the room while he is working, but then he gets dne mid-week while we are there and the room is expensive ($200 night). Money is tight for us and so I don't really have any money. I had thought maybe he took the cash with him to spend on our vacation. And so I asked him if he had any cash and he replied "Just a few 100 dollars" I said, "you don't have any cash left over from your China trip?" and he responded "Nope". And so the lies keep coming. For all I know he could have sent money over to her or paid for her to fly over and stay with him before I come for a few weeks!

So he continues to lie to me. Now I am just trying to think of what to do. Now I don't believe anything he says, and I think he was just nicer to me to appease me. Now I question whether he is still carrying on the affair. Maybe I'll change my flight and show up early to surprise him..I need to catch him. 

I am glad you found your evidence. At least now you know the truth for sure. I am still wondering but I am also wondering how I can live with a man whom is so deceiptful. I deserve so much more than this, and you do too. 

Let us know how you make out at the counselor and I will keep you updated.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm really not sure there is a correct approach handling our situation. We may have to try different things. From the posts I'm seeing on this forum, I think we may be in the minority--where our spouses continue to deny and lie (and never come clean). At least I now have concrete proof on my spouse (and he still denies it). I hope you find the proof you need to put your mind at ease.

A friend made an interesting comment today and I think I'll share it. She said the fact that my husband goes to great lengths to hide his affairs tells her something. She says he still loves me. She feels that he would be more open if he didn't love me. I'm just thinking he is a selfish coward!

My brothers have a different take on this and tell me I should have ended the marriage when all of this started. They are annoyed at me for putting up with all of this crap for so long. That being said, I'm probably going to file for divorce. I am going to give him one last chance though. I'm giving him a nice written request. The topic from our last marriage counseling sessions will be the request--"What I Want From You".
1) A serious commitment to SAVE our marriage

2) Honesty
a) stop ALL contact with your girlfriends
b) give me access to all of your private accounts--
bank, credit cards, brokerage, e-mail,etc.
c) provide a copy of your current credit report
d) move out of your apartment since it gives you way
too much freedom.

I'm 90 percent sure he will reject that request, so I know what I've got to do then.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

I certainly do not want to hear you have to go through a divorce, but am so glad you are standing up for yourself! You are demanding complete transparency but have it spelled out. I love it!

I had to laugh at the second paragraph! LOL! I agree, but they do not want to lose their "comfort zone and financial status" He might still love you and if he does maybe this plan will turn things around for you...I hope so!

My husband has a lot to lose if we split. I take care of EVERYTHING while he works away for usually 1-2 month jobs, except for last year when he worked in China for 12 months. We have a real estate business as well that takes a lot of watching over. He would be LOST without me for those reasons, so yes I do think he loves me even if he has a young girlfriend over there whom has been taking care of things for him. I just wish I knew the extent of his emotional involvement. It could be nothing, or it could be huge. He could have sent the $200 VISA card with a letter to break it off and thank her, or he could have sent it to keep it going. I have NO IDEA...which is difficult.

I am so glad you made that list of things for the ultimatum (I might use that list if you don't mind), and I agree we are a minority as most spouses seem to fess up. I have no proof which makes it difficult, but I DO have his lies I can call him on and can say I cannot live with this deceipt and that this is NOT a part of being a better husband as he promised to be.

Good luck 827Aug!!!! Keep in touch!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi cao,

You are more than welcome to use my list.

We have something else in common too. We both keep our husbands' business going. Mine is clueless as to what to do with the actual business side of things. That's one reason ours is in such a mess. In 2006 when all of my husband's bad behavior began, he said he could run it just fine without me. He was so nasty too me and also told me I was a complete failure as a business manager. At least everyone was paid and some of the things were even paid in advance. Our net income from the previous year was over $300,000. Anyway, my self-esteem couldn't take his criticism. To make a long story short, I left him with the business for six months and came back to a disaster. He is now $700,000 in the hole and I've been having a tough time gaining any ground it. We are still "liquid" and I think our business could be saved. However, to save the business, I believe our marriage would have to be saved first. He just doesn't get it. 

I wish I could offer more help with the issue of your husband and the Chinese lady. At least there is plenty of distance between them now. With that being said, perhaps the distance factor will ruin what they have going on. However, if he is cheating, he'll possibly find someone else. When your husband goes out of the country to work, do you know where he is going? Or does he just TELL you where he is going?


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

Yes he tells me where he is going but I told him no more jobs in China or we are done..I don't know if he is still in contact with her, only that he sent her that letter and money. 

Our business is failing too...because he is never here to attend to it. We have apts. and most are vacant either because they need renovation or for other reasons. sounds so similar to yours too because I used to pay all of the bills for them and handle the finances, and he critisized me too, even though everything was paid and I also cleaned up our credit. I decided not to do it so we hired a management company and they have been doing a lousey job. We terminated them so now I will be taking it over again

I have been working full time plus micro-managing the management company which I had to do because of their sloppiness. We had frozen pipes last winter because they didn't check to see if there was oil in the tank..among many other things. 

If they lose us they will regret it...it will be interesting to see what happens. Take care!


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## LostandAlone (Jun 22, 2008)

Having a hard time myself today. We had a good weekend but she is still very guarded and intimacy is still lacking. My biggest issue is that I don't know how much of her distance is being caused by the EA, her depression or my past "mistakes". Compared to both of your husbands I think I'm a saint  however I know I'm not perfect. The question is how much blame do I take? There is no doubt that there are some things that she told me were important that I didn't do enough to change or fix however I feel like the walls she put up are a bit extreme.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi Lostand Alone,

You are NOT ALONE..I am having a bad day too. There are always things that we could have done better, but you are only human and it is not your fault that she is having the EA..nor mine that my husband did or is. Their choice to go outside of the nest. Do not blame yourself. You are doing every thing you can to save the marriage..I feel for you because I know how you feel..

I keep thinking about what I am going to say to him next time I see him...because he broke the agreement to start fresh and be a better husband by telling more lies. A good husband doesn't lie. He also changed the address his bank statements are sent to so I couldn't see them.

I like 827Aug's idea of making an "ultimatum list" of things they need to do. The therapist I called on the phone said to tell him "I am not the one that had the affair, you did, you made the choice"

No matter what it still hurts. I think when my husband was all emotional the day I walked out the door and called me he was hurting because he was thinking he would have to end it with her. He wasn't that lovey dovey with me when I came home..

Are you going to counseling still?


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Well, I gave my husband the list yesterday along with a nice note saying that I loved him but was tired of the cruelty. He didn't take it well at all. He is mad! Unfortunately, I've got to work with him again today--I'm trying to prepare myself for another emotionally draining day. I'm also dreading the couseling session tomorrow; it isn't going to be pretty either. My husband keeps telling the counselor that I've always been too controlling. And the counselor agrees with him somewhat. However, I'm not the one who has the affairs and can't manage money. Due to those reasons, I feel my actions are justified.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

That's right! I am sure that wasn't easy. What did you say to him in the note? Did you ask him to do the list or tell him? Just curious..

I thought I would make a list too since I like the idea and give it to him asking him to become completely transparent. I am going to tell him I have shifted gears as before I said I hoped we could start fresh and that I would be a much better wife to him if he would be a much better husband to me. Now that he has lied to me 2-3 times I don't feel he's kept his side of that agreement.

Hope it goes OK for you and isn't as bad as you think. Good luck!


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## believer (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi guys
I have been reading your posts & trying to keep everything straight. To clarify - both your husbands have cheated - said it is over but both have found clues that is it not over. 
You are trying to debate if is it best to ask your husband to move out or say the "marriage is over" but fear they might say "Ok & walk out the door & never come back' - Am I right?

I can relate to the above situation, where I found out my husband was having an affair & was told that is was over - but it really wasn't. In hind sight, I should have kicked him out then, but he wanted to move out & I was reluctant because I felt like he would get closer to the other woman. I was afraid that if I showed him how anger I really was - it would push him away more. I also felt that if we were going to try to work on "us" - that moving out would not foster that. 
A part of me felt like I should "fight" for him - so he would choose me over the other woman. But yet, I also felt that he should it least give our marriage a chance & that he should want to work on "fighting' for our marriage before just giving up. Keep in mind that as many of us do when we 1st find out about an affair - we blame ourselves- what did we do wrong? what does the other man/woman have that we don't etc. Our self esteem takes a major blow. I was quick scrammbling to say anything to make him stay & willing to take all the blame to accomplish that. 

I have since been able to realize (through lots of therapy sessions) - that it was not my fault - that I can not control his actions. That is was him that went outside our marriage vows to to fulfill his unhappiness. When there were many other options he could have chosen. I finally can accept that the other woman was not better than me but just was filling a void that he felt he had. And only have recently been able to "blame" him for his actions. In the past, I was blaming the other woman - saying how could she do that when she knew he was married, etc. But all along, it was him that I should have been blaming but was not able to see that or admit to myself that he was the problem. 

Anyways - getting back to the subject of asking your husbands to move out. I think it is very important to put your foot down & draw the line & let them know you will not tolerate being treated that way & being disrespected that way. I would have to side with the more direct approach - that if they are willing to go so easily - then maybe it wasn't meant to be. And that they are not obviously really ready to recommit to you & your marriage. Having said that, it is MUCH easier to say/type than to put into action. 

And as long as we allow our husband to treat us that way - they will continue until we demand some respect. And if it takes them moving out to get the message - than so be it. 

In the meantime, it sounds like both of you are smart women who can fend for yourselves ( after running your husbands businesses) - that you would be able to handle life on your own - if that is what happens in the end. Although it is not what any of us bargined for in our marriages - I thought it was until death do us part. It has not quite worked out the way I had thought. But the one thing I know is - I have given it my best shot & that all anyone can ask for. 

Best wishes - let me know what happens with your situations.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi believer,

Thanks for your insight and advice. So sorry to hear you have had to go through this too. I am trying to ork on the marriage so it sounds like I am going down the same path you have already been. I am not sure of my husbands sincerity on working on the marriage.:scratchhead:

_And as long as we allow our husband to treat us that way - they will continue until we demand some respect. And if it takes them moving out to get the message - than so be it._

I think letting them know you won't tolerate that is a good idea. I am going to add that in to my discussion with my husband when I go visit him in a week while he is working away from home..but done in a firm non-threatening way. A man wants a strong woman, not a weak one.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

As for me, my husband has been out of the house for three months now. When I gave my husband the list of "What I Want", an assignment the marriage counselor gave us, I wrote out the list and put it in a nice card. In the card I told him that I loved him very much. Also, I told him that the cruelty of his actions had to stop. I feel that he has got to stop straddling the fence--either get serious about counseling or file for divorce. In my situation I feel that handwritten notes are more effective. I communicate much better in writing. I tend to get too emotional when I speak to him and that doesn't help the situation.

I did get one positive thing from the note though. He did have his "What I Want" list ready at the counseling appointment. He had been asked for the list for awhile, and he wouldn't produce one. Although his list was quite cruel, it was at least a step forward. It did list nine rather superficial "faults" that he wanted me to correct about myself. When we finally got to his Item # 9, I had to chuckle. Item #9--She has a very low self-esteem. I had to laugh and looked at the counselor. After hearing his other eight reasons why I'm an awful person, I just had to say something. "After hearing him say all of those awful things about a person, who wouldn't have a self-estem problem? If I didn't have a problem with self-estem before, I do NOW."LOL

My husband STILL maintains his innocences on the affairs. He still swears that he only has dinner with these ladies--nothing more. He still says he planted much of the evidence in order to get my attention. He denies any affairs in front of the counselor. Either way it is cruel!

I am a strong person; I try to remember that tomorrow is a new day. In addition, I try not to dwell on our marital problems too much because I've got a business to save. On a positive note, 
we are able to work together without tension now. Counseling has vastly improved that area of our lives. I'm just hoping that leads to improving our marriage as well.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

All I can say is wow! He just seems so intent on finding fault with you rather than trying to work on the marriage. That was a very good come back, _"After hearing him say all of those awful things about a person, who wouldn't have a self-esteem problem? If I didn't have a problem with self-estem before, I do NOW."__:smthumbup:_ 

What was the counselor's response after hearing/seeing his list? 

He sounds like he is so trying to blame blame blame and you know it's because he is covering up his own actions. 

I can't imagine how hard it must be to work with him, you must be strong! Keep up the good work and telling yourself you deserve much better 827Aug!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi cao,

Thanks for the support! I got so fed up with the mess; I went and did something fun today. I went to see my horses at the trainer's barn and also saw a couple of my friends there. I haven't seen my horse buddies in several months. I feel better tonight. They've even talked me into showing next weekend--I haven't shown any of my horses in over a year.

Actually I think I got some valuable marriage counseling today. The trainer and both of my friends are divorced, so we talked a lot today. The trainer (male) has given me much insight. I knew the trainer and his first wife almost thirty years ago. He has been married to his current wife for 20 years now. The trainer has been down the same road as our husbands, so he can tell me what is going on. To make a long story short, he tells me to walk away. He tells me he is cheating and can't keep his lies straight. He also tells me he is not going to change until he hits rock bottom and realizes what all he has lost. Then it will be too late. 

One of my other friends was married to a doctor. He constantly cheated on her. He too liked the 20 something crowd. She told me to get out of the marriage--he wasn't going to stop lying. She said from her experience, they convince themselves their lies are in fact truth. The lies just get deeper and deeper. I guess I fill better talking to all of my friends. However, it is discouraging--all three of them went to counseling and said it was a complete waste of time. Has anything improved for you?


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

Well, I thought it had. It is up and down. We have been talking on the phone, and he has been calling me from across the country where he is working. I am flying out and will be visiting with him in a week. I will let you how it goes.

I think it's interesting what your friends told you. (I think you know this in your heart anyway) It is the exact same thing the counselor I talked to on the phone told me...but she said I had to do it to save the marriage as a bluff, and that only until he realized hat he was losing would he turn around.

Keep in touch and let me know what happens! I will be traveling this week but will be online.

cao428


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

I just discovered something today that tells me this is not over. He had his bank statement mailed to a different address. He does not know I know. I saw a letter sent to him from the bank verifying his address change after he left on his month long trip. It was changed to a vacant apartment in a house we own for investment..duplex. I went there today to check on things as I do and sure enough his latest bank statement was in the mailbox. Of course I opened it, to scan for anything suspicious...what is he hiding? I found something suspicious. There on the statement was something called "upside wireless", and three purchases in 12 days. Has anyone heard of this?

It turns out when I looked in to it, you can text message through the computer to a cell phone anywhere in the world for cheap through an account, and you can purchase text messages. There were two purchases for 7.50 each (their standard for 50 messages) and another one for 100 messages made as soon as he arrived to his away from home destination on the 17th. There was also a .33 "intl" fee added the next day on to the first two. I will ask the company about these tomorrow...

That calculates to an average of 14 messages a day he has been sending. He is not one to text message much, and uses his cell for work. He is working in the US, so has no reason to be text messaging internationally right now. We have text messaging on our cell phones, so obviously this is a way to keep in contact with her in China in what he thinks is a secure way, because to have you have to sign in online. 

My son is in China right now, and I mentioned to my husband that it cost .50 a text message for him or us via the cell phones. He didn't offer anything about this service, which he has been using and the cost for each text message is more like .15.
It's obvious he is keeping this as his little secret.

I just don't know what to do except to confront him AGAIN at some point with all of these little deceptions. I do feel like throwing in the towel, as my life with him has been very tough, and I have some time left to find happiness. He travels away and leaves me with all of the responsibility of the business, and I still have to work full time. My friends all think I should have a better life. (I do too!) My point is it's not like my life has been wonderful, and for all of the property we own and I have worked so hard for to make it successful, it is failing because he isn't around + the economy. I live in a rental right now and with all of the money we have lost I could be living in a palace. 

I have been true blue to him despite all of this, and do not deserve this constant deception. I am seeing my therapist tomorrow to help me sort all of this out before I travel to see him.


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## LostandAlone (Jun 22, 2008)

That really stinks cao. Even though it's not a major amount of money it is still something that he is doing behind your back. That is my biggest fear is that my wife will keep up the little lies even after the affair is over. It's hard enough to trust someone again but when you find any deception is just makes it even worse. I noticed this weekend that my wife made a large withdrawal after her paycheck went in which concerned me. She said she had to lend her mom some money which is probably true, but the sick feeling in my stomach was still there thinking she was doing something shady. I know I want that feeling to go away and I'm sure you do too....but it may never happen. I don't think I can trust her again without question like I did before


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi LostandAlone,

Thank you for your comments, it does stink, especially where I have never been unfaithful to him in 26 years. I think I am shifting gears because of all of the deceit and making my exit plan. I hope he isn't on this forum, but he's not a forum kind of guy. I went to see my therapist today, and she helped me put things in perspective. She helped me see that I need to see about taking care of me now because this is affecting my health (I am developing a chronic cough). I will not live with a man that is continuing to have an affair and deceive me.

Lostand Alone, you do too need to think about taking care of yourself.!!!!


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## LostandAlone (Jun 22, 2008)

I know I do and I really should see the writing on the wall. Even if we do wind up working things out I will always be walking on eggshells wondering when she will find fault in something else I do. Wondering when she will come up with another excuse to have an affair. We don't have any kids right now but it is something we were looking to do which now scares me to death. When will I actually feel comfortable that she won't do this again when it would be much more difficult to leave. I almost feel like I'm being given an out and if I don't take it, I might live to regret it later


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

LostandAlone said:


> I know I do and I really should see the writing on the wall. Even if we do wind up working things out I will always be walking on eggshells wondering when she will find fault in something else I do. Wondering when she will come up with another excuse to have an affair. We don't have any kids right now but it is something we were looking to do which now scares me to death. When will I actually feel comfortable that she won't do this again when it would be much more difficult to leave. I almost feel like I'm being given an out and if I don't take it, I might live to regret it later


 I know how you feel!!! One of my friends suggested I start going out and even dating. She thinks it will send a message to my husband--either we work on our marriage or we move on. The arrangement now certainly isn't fair. He gets to date (although he denies it) and have a good time while he puts me thru hell. My friend feels that my husband would get a taste of his own medicine and I might find someone I like better. It's really tough being the responsible one!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi cao,

I saw your post about the bank statement going to another address. That's about where I was last year with my husband. Only my husband was a little more careful--he got a PO box. And once he did that everything else followed. Then he got separate credit cards. That's when things really got going--stealing money, buying a party wardrobe, entertainment expenses,traveling,etc. I wished I knew what to tell you....


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

Thanks, and I know this that it gets worse (once they lie and start deceiving). I am going to see him on Friday. I confronted him on the phone last night about it, and told him I KNOW. He denied it and asked "how did I think I knew"? I was smarter this time and didn't tell him how. He thinks I put spyware on his computer so thinks it's that..(I didn't) In any case I have decided now is the time to tell him I am "thinking about what I need to do" because of his decision to be deceiptful, and that I do not want to live with that in my life anymore. I will not accept this.

I was going to cut short my visit with him and he called me to ask to reconsider to continue the short vacation. (Our 15 year old daughter is going to be with us) I feel like the young Chinese young woman is always with us now. He's making her a part of our family. The alarming thing is this has been going on for about a year now!

I will be in touch and let you know how it works out. 

Hi LostandAlone,

I feel your torment and I think you feeling scared to death of having kids is your intuition telling you not to. If you have to end it you will find it so much easier if there are no children, as well they shouldn't have to come into a home that is almost broken.
Yes, I think you are seeing the writing on the wall. You seem to be a really nice person and devoted marriage partner to her that doesn't deserve this.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

cao,

Good luck when you see your husband. If he's anything like my husband, don't hold your breath!

I got a new counselor today. I decided it was time for me to find someone to help me move on and cope with a divorce. I'm so tired of putting on a happy face in public and crying my eyes out when alone. I just can't deal with my husband's emotional cruelty any longer. Each day I work with him, it gets harder.

The new counselor has an interesting background--she started her career as a police detective. This is definately the one to go to, if you suspect your spouse is fooling around! LOL She knows all the tricks! She told me I had done a great job with my snooping. She told me my marriage problems were due to his mid-life crisis and all the other women. Furthermore, I'm not to blame myself for his unhappiness. At this point she said I should just quit trying to talk to him--it would be as effective as speaking to the wall. She felt it would be less stressful for me to talk to the wall. And since I've got to reduce the stress before my health suffers..... 

Hope you have a nice trip.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

How are you doing?? I just read this reply after returning from the trip. Have you started your divorce? Sounds like you found
a great councelor. I wish for you that it has been going better in a way that you have hope and can move forward..

I had a nice vacation with a friend and my daughter the first week but found I had a heavy heart thinking constantly about what I was going to say to my husband, etc., which was unfortunate, but still good. When we reunited the next week he was very nice and we spent 4 days together as a family partially, the first 2- I was at a conference for most of the time. The remaining 2 days he was working and we were together as a family mostly. We both said nothing about the issue. I decided to wait until he gets home.

My daughter and I are home now and before he drove us to the airport this morning he pulled out the VISA card (master) that he said he had sent the "temp" Visa card to her . He handed me the info that came with it and card to prove to me he wasn't lying about it. So I guess he wasn't lying about that, but what I thought was disturbing was that this card is rechargeable, and you can add funds and share with others. I brought that up and he said the card she has expires in 60 days. So he sent her funds to close his office in China and can see what she spends online. I asked him when the last time was that he had contact with her and he said "a few weeks ago". Don't forget he purchased 100 text messages on June 17th..and another 100 before that. He doesn't know I know this, but I will be able to see if he purchased more text messages soon.

I let it go because it wasn't the right time to discuss. Even though we had a nice time together as a family and together I still don't trust him. I do feel I got sucked in a bit emotionally by being with him and I do think he doesn't want the marriage to end. I do think he is scared, but how much of that is that is because he doesn't want to lose 1/2 of his wealth, and how much is that he loves me I do not know. I also think he is scared to lose "face" with his family. 

I really want this marriage to work, don't get me wrong, but I think the time has come for change. I cannot live with deceipt anymore and so will talk to him about this when he comes home by saying just that. I will explain what I cannot live with anymore and see where it goes from there.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi cao!

No, I haven't started my divorce yet. To be honest, I really don't want to help his "passive aggressive" actions any. I'm to the point I feel I would be doing his dirty work for him, if I file for divorce. If he files, he has to pick up my legal fees. That will be funny!! We had a huge fight tonight and he threw stuff. I'm fine--he's really a piece of work.

Unfortunately, I missed my counseling session this week. Our supplier put a credit hold on our order that day, so I had my hands full--not that he was helping any. I did get thru the day though. On the brighter side of things, I did find our money leak (well one of them--he is the other one). It turned out to be a software flaw (in his computer) that had been shorting us on all of our billings for four years. He doesn't appreciate my work though. I know if I leave the business it will fail and there goes my alimony. I really don't know what I'm going to do. Keep praying for a miracle I guess.

When does your husband get home? Hopefully things will work out for you. Keep me posted.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug!

Wow that is great you found that leak! They never seem to appreciate what we do, do they? I know the whole year my husband was gone working in china, and I was home alone missing him and taking care of the properties/business plus working full time, commuting 2 hours each day, and taking care of the house, and kids & pets, not *once* did he thank me. Instead, he complained that I didn't fly over soon enough to visit him, and didn't send his medication timely enough, etc. I had to deal with an oil spill on the basement of one house (the oil tank let go), frozen pipes in one during the winter and the list goes on. Then all the time I am missing him and trying to stay connected, sending him loving emails, all while he was living in a gorgeous apt. and hiring the young girls to do things for him. Am I stupid or what? 

My attorney told me that if I initiated a divorce, he would go after my husband for the legal fees, mainly because I have no money at all, and he is the one whom makes the large income. 

I am the one that has been thinking of another (better) life. He will be returning soon, probably this week. 

Does your husband know that about the legal fees and the divorce? He sounds manipulative like mine. 

I was just watching 20/20, a show about sex in Amerca. There was an interesting segment on Monogamy. One guy on whom has become famous for his "bad boy" image and straight talk about men and cheating. He says men all are made for variety and are built to cheat. He says they never feel bad unless they get caught. Interesting, but I don't believe that's true. I think there are men out there that are completely monogomous. Any comments from any males out there?

Take care 827Aug! Sounds like you are doing all the right things.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Good Morning cao!

I'm curious on the monogamy issue too. Perhaps you should post a new thread asking that question. I have two older brothers and I can honestly say they believe in monogamy. My brothers and my father are disgusted with my husband's behavior. I think it depends on the family dynamics in which the male comes from.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi 827Aug,

Good idea, I will do that. I agree, and maybe all men LOOK, but that doesn't mean they allow their thoughts to go further.

Take care!


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