# Sexless marriage?



## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Bit of a brief background summary. My wife (31) and I (33) have been together 6 years, married for 3. We also have a 2yr old boy. As like most couples, at the beginning, it was all pure passion and lust....twice a day every week at times. We used to enjoy watching porn together, her alone sometimes too, which I had no issue with.

As time went on, the sex did eventually get less, but was still healthy. After our little one was born, naturally the sex gets less. This is, to some extent, expected, after a woman gives birth. But 2 years on, we're now in the once a month, once every 2 months club.

Her attitude is that we've been together a long time(!) and that things change over time. I get that things change, but said that I don't believe once a month is healthy. If it was down to me, i'd have it every day. I asked for a compromise - maybe once a week... She agreed to compromise and have sex once a week. But she said she wants it to be on the same day every week... a Friday. I didn't want it to be so regimented, but agreed anyway. This worked for maybe 3 weeks... then one Friday, she said she was too tired for sex. Not a problem, we have all weekend, so maybe we'll have an opportunity. But no. In her head, Friday had passed, so that was it until the following week. I questioned it... she got all defensive, and then pulled the plug on weekly sex, saying it felt like a chore!

She said that if she's not in the mood for it more than once a month, then she wouldn't do it for the sake of it, as it would feel wrong.

To top it off, i've seen that she's been watching porn on her phone whilst i'm at work. Makes me feel like her libido hasn't gone, and that it's me that's the problem?

I work shifts (nights and a few days shifts), so am home a lot in the week. I do almost all of the chores (Cook, tidy, washing, dishes), I have our boy on my days off. She works Monday-Friday, 9-5.30. She will come home from work, chill for an hour and then go gym for an hour. She will come home, eat dinner i've cooked, watch tv and then go bed. On the days I do work day shifts, she has to get our boy ready to take him to childminder, then go to work, thats it.

Virtually every single night, she'll ask for a massage and we'll both be naked for it. She enjoys it, finds it relaxing, and i'd be lying if I said I didn't get turned on. She gets very turned on, I can feel it.... but just as we were about to have sex, she told me me to get off as she was tired, and that was that. I couldn't get to sleep, as I was frustrated and a little bit peed off. We had a conversation about what we are going to do, but she fell asleep.

She never ever initiates sex. Sex will now only happen as a result of the massage. If I didn't massage her, we'd never come into contact! She rarely kisses me and foreplay from her is a massive no no. She does have some skin issues (bit of a form of eczema) and says it really affects her nipples... so I can't ever touch her breasts and touching her lady garden is a big no no. So I can't touch my wife to even get her in the mood.

When we have this conversation about sex, she just asks what the solution is. She's unwilling to compromise on this once a month thing. She says she doesn't understand why sex is so important to me. When I tell her that by having sex, it shows to me that she still wants me in a physical way. But all she hears is that I want to get laid. She wants to know why, if i'm happy with the rest of the relationship, why can't that be enough for me?

When we do have sex, there's no foreplay. In fact, there's been no foreplay since our boy was born. But the sex itself is over within 5 minutes. Usually she orgasms so fast, way before me. I'd say she was faking it, but I can feel she isn't... plus I know her too well to know she's not faking it. So if she likes it that much, why not want it more often? I get depressed so soon after sex too, as I know that's "it" for another month.

I've never gone down on her since we've been together. She says she's not comfortable with it and that I won't like it! I love doing it and she's admitted she's done it with every single guy she's ever dated, so that frustrates me just as much. Because if you didn't like it, you wouldn't have done it more than twice really?

I don't want to be stuck in a marriage that's only 3 years old, where the sex is pretty much non existent already and the foreplay has stopped. When I ask her every couple of months for some foreplay, she tells me to stop pressurising her. Pressurising? She's my wife... I barely mention it for fear of rejection. She says because I talk about it so often, she feels pressured... and as a result, she's not at all interested in sex. However, she said that if she were single right now and slept with someone, she admitted she'd do all the foreplay, have loads of sex, because that's what you do when you first get with someone....!

2/3 weeks after sex, I might start to try seduce her again, but she'll just stop and say we only had sex "the other day".

I said to her that I feel my confidence has been destroyed in bed. We only have sex when she's in the mood. We only ever do the same positions because that what she wants, as she doesn't like anything else. We don't have foreplay because she doesn't like it. I feel like I simply don't know how to turn her on anymore?

What can I do? How can she compromise if she refuses to have sex unless she's in the mood?

Every other aspect of the relationship is fine, but this is just eating away at me constantly. I asked her to go counselling (with me). She said no - on the basis that we'll get a divorce if it doesn't work. I asked her to go doctors to rule out any hormonal/chemical imbalances, she said no as there's nothing wrong with her.

She also confessed recently, saying she doesn't want to fight anymore, but that she can't keep me if i can't "bear" to stay. She also apologised, stating she she doesn't have the spark anymore - that it went after our boy was born 2 years ago. She says she fancies me but not in the way I want (e.g. wanting to rip my clothes off). She believes this is how it should be after 6 years together, and that it'll never be how it was at the beginning. She doesn't understand why I seem to put sex "above" the marriage, and can't believe i'd be willing to break up the family home, because, in her words, she won't "f*ck me".

Is divorce my only option?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

This is tough... =/
I really don't know what to say 

Have you tried a different approach? Such as teasing her? Though I doubt it would work considering she's not interested in counselling or working on the marriage. She seems to have forgotten it's a team effort. 

The next time she says something like "She doesn't understand why I seem to put sex "above" the marriage, and can't believe i'd be willing to break up the family home, because, in her words, she won't "f*ck me". Tell her that you're not willing to break up the family home for sex but that you are very disappointed that she refuses to seek help either as an individual or together as a couple to save the marriage.

When I seperated from my wife I wasn't interested in even entertaining the idea of getting back together with her until she took up counselling out of her own initiative. Funny, I tell her "lets go counselling" and she goes "no". Then we seperate and then I told her "fk it, I don't care anymore, fk counselling", and then she does it -.-
Women...

Anyways, have you read Married Man Sex Life? It's highly recommended by folks here.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know what the solution is! She's been telling me this morning that she loves but no longer lusts after me. Said she doesn't fancy me anymore. Who knows if that can ever change? 

But says she doesn't want us to split up? Said she's happy to stay together, even if she doesn't lust after me. Is she being incredibly selfish or what?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

You can start by reading the book, and reading the posts on this forum in the sex in marriage section; you're not alone in your situation.
She gave you the ILYBNILWY speech? "I love you but not in love with you?" Welcome to Talk About Marriage 

Of course she doesn't want to split, sometimes women can settle with a man as long as he pays the rent and provides a home for them to raise their children. Other times they settle for that and then have affairs on the side.

Personally I reckon you've spoiled her, but that's just me.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

RandomDude - that line about spoiling her... my best mate reckons she's been taking me for granted for a while now, so it can't be coincidence that it's been said by two people now....


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

In that case, time to visit the men's clubhouse on this forum I say, you'll find a wealth of knowledge there to get you started on understanding your present dynamics.

It's not the end of the world, not yet anyway! There is still hope!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The two of you work different shifts most of the time. This is usually a marriage killer. 

How many hours a week do the two of you spend doing things together, just the two of you? 

A couple needs to spend at least 15 hours a week together, just the 2 of you to maintain the passion. 

There are things you can do to repair the relationship. It starts with spending this needed time together.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Excluding when i'm on night shift, i'm either already home with our son due to being off, or I get home at 7pm. She gets home at 6pm everyday and goes gym 7.30-8.30. We usually have dinner for 9pm, then get into bed for 9.30/10pm as she's always so tired. Though between her getting home and going to bed, she's on "Whatsapp" to a girl from work all night. When I work night shifts, she's up til midnight, chatting on whatsapp. to be fair, she's not on her phone every single night, all night, but the majority of them.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

^ That doesn't leave much room for intimacy =/


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

There's always opportunity for intimacy.. she said by putting her leg on my leg and snuggling, thats good enough for her. But her telling me today she doesn't fancy me/lust after me.... this is not new news to me!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You two are not getting the time together that you need to build/maintain the passion. 

Your wife does not want sex with you because there is no emotoinal intimacy outside of sex. Women generally need that to feel sexual.

.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

I wouldn't say there's no emotional intimacy from my side, i'm really into her... shes knows it, i'm constantly complimenting her, but her telling me she no longer fancies me... that's surely the end?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mcscoobs said:


> I wouldn't say there's no emotional intimacy from my side, i'm really into her... shes knows it, i'm constantly complimenting her, but her telling me she no longer fancies me... that's surely the end?


When was the last time you two went out on a date?

When was the last time the two of you sat for an hour or so and talked about the things that are important to you both?

How often do you do these two things?


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

We make an effort to have "date night" once a week (shift work permitting). The last time was a few Fridays ago... when we got home, I was expecting sex, as she made it so regimented and clear that Friday was sex day. When it didn't happen and I questioned it, she said that we'd had a nice night, why can't I be happy with that instead of sex? Then came the conversation about how I pressure her for sex and how sex is a chore.... And that was the end of our weekly sex 'arrangement'....

As for sitting and talking.... we tend to go bed quite early so we can have pillow talk. but when I bring up the intimacy side of things, I get the "Oh no, not this again" speech!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You can repair this if you are willing to do the work. You get to be the one who makes the first move because you are the one here asking for help.

“His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”, Dr. Harley… good guides for how to meet each other needs and rebuild to a passionate marriage.


Then this one does a very good job of explaining how to use unilateral action/changes to improve/save your marriage… Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again, Michele Weiner Davis - great for communication, and for taking responsibility and action to improve your quality of life.


Fight Less, Love More: 5-Minute Conversations to Change Your Relationship without Blowing Up or Giving In, Laurie Puhn. - Ways to tackle problems in a common sense way, and open direct, honest communication in areas of conflict.

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert, John Gottman. - Ideas and activities to go through to understand each other more and strengthen your bond together.

How Can I Be Your Lover, When I'm Too Busy Being Your Mother? Sara Dimerman and J. Kearns. - Common passion killing pitfalls that couples unwittingly succumb to, and how to become partners again.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also if she is on hormonal BC look into that.For many women it can lower or even knock out her libido all together.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She won't go to see a doctor as there's nothing wrong with her, as far as she's concerned.

She keeps going on about not wanting us to split up and she wants me to stay with her, even though she's not attracted to me. She said I need to stop talking about sex and look at her as a person. Essentially, she wants me to stay in a sexless marriage. She's shocked that i'd leave her over sex.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> She won't go to see a doctor as there's nothing wrong with her, as far as she's concerned.
> 
> She keeps going on about not wanting us to split up and she wants me to stay with her, even though she's not attracted to me. She said I need to stop talking about sex and look at her as a person. Essentially, she wants me to stay in a sexless marriage. She's shocked that i'd leave her over sex.


Have you asked her specifically how you can demonstrate you are looking at her as a person?And I will say in situations like this constantly bringing up the sex in her mind may just be confirming to her you "see her" as just a sexual object.

Anyway ask her how can you show you see her for a lot more than that..as a whole person besides sex.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Thing is, it's not like I talk about our intimacy issue all day, every day. I'd say it's maybe a few nights a week, which is still a fair amount. Aside from that, she'll talk a lot about work, i'll listen keenly, I try to be as good a husband as can be, which is why she doesn't want me to leave her... she's simply not attracted to me.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Most women don't understand, but it's a fact that men need sex to feel loved. In the book "for women only" by Shaunti Feldhahn Chapter 5 Sex Changes Everything..."lack of sex is actually a crisis. Lack of sex is as emotionally serious to him as, say, his sudden silence would be to you, were he simply to stop communicating with you." It goes on to say that sex fills a powerful emotional need for men, and gives examples of benefits and also how lack of sex wounds a man.

There is also a companion book "for men only"...easy reads and highly recommend them. Also, as Elegirl suggested "His Needs, Her Needs" is an important read for both of you.

She sounds disconnected from you and the marriage. You are fulfilling all of her needs...but she is not fulfilling yours. Perhaps if you stopped meeting her needs....maybe next time she wants a massage tell her no. Tell her that it's too painful for you to touch her intimately, and meeting her needs yet leaving your needs still wanting.

My impression is that she is very selfish, and spoiled. She refuses to see a doctor, she refuses to go to counseling. She refuses to see there's a problem. You are taking care of the chores, the child, and still massaging her! What is she contributing to the relationship, it is supposed to be a partnership you know. 

Your needs are not being met, every time she rejects you she is making a withdrawal from your "love bank", if she is not making deposits by meeting your needs then eventually your love bank will be empty. Sounds like you are getting close.




As a couple you simply have to make the time to be together and focus on each other. Working different shifts is very stressful on relationships, but you can survive it.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Thank you for your response.

Personally, if she no longer fancies me, no amount of talking will change that. I don't really see what option I have other than divorce?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> Thing is, it's not like I talk about our intimacy issue all day, every day. I'd say it's maybe a few nights a week, which is still a fair amount. Aside from that, she'll talk a lot about work, i'll listen keenly, I try to be as good a husband as can be, which is why she doesn't want me to leave her... she's simply not attracted to me.


The reason I suggested that is her comment "stop talking about sex and look at me as a person".

I would be curious why she thinks you AREN"T looking at her as a person ?Maybe she is thinking even when you aren't discussing sex you are still "looking at her" thinking about it?Including if you have frequent discussions about it and now have told her it sounds like ultimately you would divorce her over sex only once a month.

Also is she on hormonal BC ?You answered she wont go get checked out and thinks nothings wrong with her.Is she taking hormonal BC ?Its well documented for many women to lose their drive or for it to be diminished.So of course she wont be sexually attracted to you .But yet once a month she seems to have the "urge"..it sounds like hormonal fluxation is possibly a culprit(or at least involved).She is obviously "attracted to you " sometimes.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Most women don't understand, but it's a fact that men need sex to feel loved.


It can not however fill the need to feel loved if she is strictly doing it for him like a "chore" and isn't really interested.If its not "wanted" or desired by her for her needs too but she goes through the motions "for him' its one sided and leaves him feeling unfulfilled in the long run.Its the whole "I want you to want me I need you to need me" aspect of it you cant get around .That's why her just agreeing to "do it " more often especially if he knows its only under threat of its that or I'm divorcing you will feel completely hollow and depressing.And by that I mean if that the norm rather than an occasional exception.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Tell her even the church recognizes no sex as a reason for divorce.

I hate to think it, and really hate to say it but....Are you 100% beyond any shadow of a doubt, absolutely certain that she's not cheating on you? The reason i ask is because you say she watches porn, she goes to the gym every evening after work. All which speak to a healthy libido, but she's not having sex with you. She's in her early thirties and about 7 years in a relationship...biologically she is in the prime -- ripe for an affair.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Can't be 100% sure, but she simply doesn't have time. Work is 10 mins away, she's always home within that time. Gym is gym classes, which i know she pays for and books in advance. She watches porn maybe once every 1-2 months, so its not exactly regular.

However, I imagine it would be quite easy to have an affair if you wanted it badly enough!

Nothing wrong with her libido, she just doesn't want me in that way.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

She is really not giving you much of a choice, by refusing to see a counselor. It's telling that she said she wouldn't see one because then you would get divorced. 
It's sad that your son won't get to grow up in a two parent home because she refuses to work on the relationship.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She's since agreed to go see one begrudgingly. but I fail to see what a counsellor can do about her not being attracted to me. If she was still attracted me but there were intimacy issues, I'd be happy to go.... but now, after her confession that she doesn't fancy me, i'm not so sure any amount of talking will change that.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She may be having an affair & doesn't want to cheat on her lover with you.

Does she work outside of the home?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> Can't be 100% sure, but she simply doesn't have time. Work is 10 mins away, she's always home within that time. Gym is gym classes, which i know she pays for and books in advance. She watches porn maybe once every 1-2 months, so its not exactly regular.
> 
> However, I imagine it would be quite easy to have an affair if you wanted it badly enough!
> 
> Nothing wrong with her libido, she just doesn't want me in that way.


If she truly has a healthy libido and just "doesn't want you that way" there has to be a reason.Why would she deny her own sexual needs ?Something else has to be going on (and I dont mean necessarrily an affair ) if she has a libido /drive that is actually more frequent than once a month but is content to deny herself that pleasure if you are ready and waiting and your relationship is good otherwise there is something else going on more complex IMHO than she just "doesnt want YOU that way".

She may have some shame attached issues to sex.That have nothing to do with you .Was she ever sexually abused?Its also a little "odd" she doesn't want you to touch her breast or vagina before sex to warm up or just for added "fun".


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She does, what with work and gym, she's hardly at home....


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

dallasapple - No previous issues... before our boy was born, sex was very regular, 2/3 times a day at times. Plenty of foreplay but all FROM her - she couldn't get enough! It's just dwindled to nothing now because she simply doesn't fancy me. Or her head has been turned.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> She's since agreed to go see one begrudgingly. but I fail to see what a counsellor can do about her not being attracted to me. If she was still attracted me but there were intimacy issues, I'd be happy to go.... but now, after her confession that she doesn't fancy me, i'm not so sure any amount of talking will change that.


So just out of the blue..a 30 something woman with a healthy libido to boot..in a good otherwise marriage for no reason loses her attraction to her husband and is willing herself to almost completely give up sex?There is a missing piece to the puzzle .


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> dallasapple - No previous issues... before our boy was born, sex was very regular, 2/3 times a day at times. Plenty of foreplay but all FROM her - she couldn't get enough! It's just dwindled to nothing now because she simply doesn't fancy me. Or her head has been turned.


Then it has to be connected somehow with her becoming a mother.She needs therapy.It could even be the trauma of childbirth ..I don't know..


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

I wouldn't say suddenly. We've had these ongoing issues regards sex/intimacy for at least 6 months. That's why she tried to do the weekly sex thing. I've suspected she wasn't that "into" me for a while, cos otherwise she'd initiate at least something, even a kiss! But confessing today has finally put my suspicions right.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> Then it has to be connected somehow with her becoming a mother.She needs therapy.It could even be the trauma of childbirth ..I don't know..


She does, but she doesn't believe she has a problem. In fact, she thinks I need to go counselling as it's not right to want sex (with my wife!) as much as I do....


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> I wouldn't say suddenly. We've had these ongoing issues regards sex/intimacy for at least 6 months. That's why she tried to do the weekly sex thing. I've suspected she wasn't that "into" me for a while, cos otherwise she'd initiate at least something, even a kiss! But confessing today has finally put my suspicions right.


It is suddenly though if the problems started after your son was born..Especially an otherwise 2 time a day including initiator for what several years prior to the baby?She has some sort of hang up IMHO that has nothing to do with you even if she claims that.You don't go frigid after being that hot especially in your prime and say its "lost attraction".I mean I have heard of that but its usually something like the spouse gains 150lbs..or a major breach of trust ..etc...


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She's begging me practically to stay. Says she will try to fancy me all over again. Is this even possible? Is this a trap? What do I do?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Telling a spouse that you are no longer attracted to them is soon followed by ILYBINILWY speech. Both a staple of the cheaters script. 

Saying she isn't attracted to you then becomes her justification for cheating. Read some of the threads under the CWI section, in your case trust but verify.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks Ava - what do you think of my post just before yours?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> She does, but she doesn't believe she has a problem. In fact, she thinks I need to go counselling as it's not right to want sex (with my wife!) as much as I do....


If she was a once a week kind of girl before ..then went from that to once a month after baby that I could even see.I'll have to look it up but there is something called sexual bulimia .You just don't go from "loving it" 2 times a day ..to then pointing at the other one when you want more than once a month and say "they aren't right"..YES our libidos can fluxuate..wax and wane..especially females we have a more complicated system including having babies..BC pills can affect us..nursing ..depression ..etc..

But this is sounding more like in a nutshell..she loved sex 2 times a day for several year? NOTHING changed..still has a healthy libido supposedly and just denies herself sex because she "lost attraction to you " and again for no reason.But it started after her first child was born?(assuming its her first?)..

Is anybody else confused or is it just me?


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

If you're confused, imagine how I feel?! She says that sex just isn't that important to her, so she can happily go without... especially as she's happy with everything else in her life. She says she simply doesn't need sex, as I guess, everything she wanted has been fulfilled?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> She's begging me practically to stay. Says she will try to fancy me all over again. Is this even possible? Is this a trap? What do I do?


Can she tell you WHY she isn't attracted to you ?Or is it 'just because I'm not".

Maybe the "new love" feeling which is mostly "infatuation" wore off and she had depended on that as "the attraction "?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

mcscoobs said:


> She's begging me practically to stay. Says she will try to fancy me all over again. Is this even possible? Is this a trap? What do I do?


You owe it to your child to try to create the best marriage possible. Schedule the counseling appointment, hopefully, you will get a good one. You may want to consider a sex therapist instead of a marriage counselor.  in the meantime, please, please take a look at the books we have suggested.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> If you're confused, imagine how I feel?! She says that sex just isn't that important to her, so she can happily go without... especially as she's happy with everything else in her life. She says she simply doesn't need sex, as I guess, everything she wanted has been fulfilled?


Then her LIBIDO is not healthy.And or she has psychological issues attached to sex.

If you have a HEALTHY libido in an otherwise good loving marriage then even if sex isn't your #1 propriety you still wouldnt be perfectly fine with giving it up for life.It would "missed" and "somewhat " important to you...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> You owe it to your child to try to create the best marriage possible. Schedule the counseling appointment, hopefully, you will get a good one. You may want to consider a sex therapist instead of a marriage counselor.  in the meantime, please, please take a look at the books we have suggested.


Yep ..she needs a sex therapist.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

I can't imagine how devastated I would feel if my husband told me "he will try to fancy me again". Does she realize how cruel that is?


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She believes she's doing everything in her power to stop me leaving I guess?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> She's begging me practically to stay. Says she will try to fancy me all over again. Is this even possible? Is this a trap? What do I do?


Its possible if she is honest about what she really feels and whats REALLY going on and wants to fix it."Lost attraction" with NO REASON is a cop out vague "reason".To want to give up sex in your 30's with a healthy libido in a good marriage.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes, definitely thinking a sex therapist is the way to go. You both agree that the marriage is good other than sex. So theres no point in letting a marriage counselor make things worse. Try to find a sex therapist.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

I just can't help but feel a therapist of any kind can't change her feelings towards someone? But i'm hoping against all hope that it's possible.....


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Mcsccobs just on a personal note..I have "lost attraction "to my husband at times and I could tell you EXACTLY the reason.(he lied..or was a jack ass to me etc)Other periods (I have been with my husband roughly 30 years married 25 in June)..it was a PHYSICAL libido problem that I had NO warning or information could happen .BC pills for one.Then I had depression and the meds for that..(made sex/ the thought of it nauseating litterally).My husband not understanding (or me) and his hateful treatment of me over it and threats compounded it I felt like my value was "sex"..When I was nursing ..I swear I would actually "shiver" and I don't mean with passion but like a spider was crawling on me if he touched my breast..I wish I knew then (and he did) then exactly what was going on it would have helped us both.But never if and when we have "harmony" outside of bed and nothing interfering chemically with my natural libido and or if I'm not in a depressed state or under some sort of extreme stress just made me "not attracted" to my husband .Oh and I had sexual assault and trauma in my life too.

IOW ..just "not attracted"(for not reason) um...sounds like a lazy way to deal with it.She must be afraid.Of herself.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Or maybe she knows the real reason but doesn't want to hurt me? Who knows? I've tried talking to her, but she doesn't elaborate


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again, Michele Weiner Davis - great for communication, and for taking responsibility and action to improve your quality of life.


Sorry, but I think this is a terrible resource. I bought it and read it cover to cover. The whole point is about saving the marriage at any cost, not about how to create bi-lateral happiness.

My thoughts after reading the book were "you mean that if I give my spouse whatever is requested of me, don't bother my spouse with my needs, stay out of the way, and put on my happy face my spouse will probably stick around? No sh!t Sherlock!" It seems we all know this (although some simply refuse to go this route). The reason we look for help is because that is hugely unsatisfying and unsustainable.

Saving the marriage at any cost should not the be goal unless there are some truly extenuating circumstances out there. Also, this method just kicks the problem down the road; a few months of kissing a$$ is not going to make a spouse more open to meeting your needs which conflict with their preferences; they either are open and considerate from the start, or they are not - period.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aunt Ava said:


> My impression is that she is very selfish, and spoiled. She refuses to see a doctor, she refuses to go to counseling. She refuses to see there's a problem. You are taking care of the chores, the child, and still massaging her! What is she contributing to the relationship, it is supposed to be a partnership you know.


To be fair, and we need to be since she is not here to tell her side of things:

They both contribute financially as they both work. He takes care of their child when she's at work. She takes care of the child when he's at work. 

She does contribute to the household and family.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

She looks after him for the whole day only 4 days in 5 weeks. Other than that, she'll see him before and after work, so maybe a total of 2 hours a day. I have him on average, for a full day, maybe 3 days a week. And although I'm not in the office Monday-Friday, when I do work, it's 12hr shifts, so over the course of a month, I physically work the same amount of hours as my wife.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Is anybody else confused or is it just me?


Smelling a bait-and-switch. She wanted the good guy whom she got along with but did not find particularly sexually attractive, gave what he wanted to not lose him, then after child said "I'm done with that now".

Of course the other possibility is that she has some sort of disorder that inhibits her libido, but that seems less likely. And, if she is not willing to get that investigated, that points back to a base lack of attraction as the source of her apathy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mcscoobs said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> Personally, if she no longer fancies me, no amount of talking will change that. I don't really see what option I have other than divorce?


Argh, her no longer being attracted to you is a state of mind. Ava and I have told you what to do to get her state of mind back where it needs to be for your marriage to have the passion you want in it.

You are wrong that no amount of talking and 'work' will change that.

The way humans function is that we have an emotional store that some dub the 'love bank'. When the love bank is full we feel passionate about our partner and are attrated to our partner. When the love bank is empty we feel 'unattracted' to our partner.

Please get and read "His Needs, Her Needs". That's the first book to read. Then read the others that Ave suggested. 

Are you willing to give your marriage one last try? Or are you looking for a reason to get a divorce?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

:iagree:

I have to agree with Dallasapple; whenever I've lost my mojo I had my reasons why. Sometimes, it was because I felt unappreciated, or exhausted, or even unloved. Usually, it was just my perception not reality. BUT I never told my husband that I wasn't attracted to him, no dummy here. We have been married 28 years.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

When we got together, she made all the moves. She asked me out, she instigated everything..... Oh how it all changes so quickly!


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm willing to do everything it takes to save this marriage... maybe i'm naive in the fact that you can fancy someone again? I just feel so rejected and unwanted now and can't see how that will change? I'm willing to go to a counsellor, it was my idea!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> Or maybe she knows the real reason but doesn't want to hurt me? Who knows? I've tried talking to her, but she doesn't elaborate


Could be.But at least with the truth you know what you are dealing with and cope better than with the "guessing game".And sometimes you imagine things far worse than the truth.

Like even the example of the BC pills I gave..Well my husband flat out thought I didn't LOVE him because I had NO libido.A chemical(hormone" surpressing my desire?It had NOTHING to do with my "love" for him..I couldn't HELP it anymore than a NEUTERED cat stops wanting sex.

See what I mean?Education education education ..knowledge.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

mcscoobs said:


> We used to enjoy watching porn together, her alone sometimes too, which I had no issue with.


 Maybe you should take issue with her watching porn alone. Even therapists that have no issue with porn will tell you that porn and masturbation becomes a problem when the spouse prefers masturbating to porn to having sex with their spouse. Although masturbation is normal, it is not healthy when it replaces the intimacy of real sex with a partner. She is in effect cheating on you with fantasy sex. She has her sexual needs met by fantasy masturbation and wants to cake eat now that she feel that she has you trapped with a child.

You said that she did not want to go to MC because it would lead to divorce. Tell her that unless she goes to MC and starts to meet your normal needs as her husband, that there will certainly be a divorce, and sooner rather than later. It will not get better as long as you let her cake eat.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mcscoobs said:


> She's begging me practically to stay. Says she will try to fancy me all over again. Is this even possible? Is this a trap? What do I do?


You tell her the truth. That you love her and value your relationship but need the eroticism in your marriage. Sex is a deal-breaker. You are willing to cut her some slack but she's been testing you for years and it needs to change soon.

Then you tell her that you don't think she can do it on her own, otherwise it would have happened by now. And, her just gritting it out is not what you want. She needs to see the full battery of professionals (full physical workup, MC, IC, sex therapist), get on a plan to fix herself, and them come to you as a healthy person who can provide the marriage essentials.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Have you asked her specifically how you can demonstrate you are looking at her as a person?And I will say in situations like this constantly bringing up the sex in her mind may just be confirming to her you "see her" as just a sexual object.
> 
> Anyway ask her how can you show you see her for a lot more than that..as a whole person besides sex.


Agree, but it needs to come out that sex is a deal-breaker for the OP. Not the MOST IMPORTANT THING (or the ONLY THING), but as one essential of several that must be present for the marriage to work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mcscoobs said:


> She looks after him for the whole day only 4 days in 5 weeks. Other than that, she'll see him before and after work, so maybe a total of 2 hours a day. I have him on average, for a full day, maybe 3 days a week. And although I'm not in the office Monday-Friday, when I do work, it's 12hr shifts, so over the course of a month, I physically work the same amount of hours as my wife.


Is she has your son 2 hours a day after work. 

You work mostly weekend night right? She works Mon-Fri? right?

Who watches you son when you are at work?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Maybe you should take issue with her watching porn alone. Even therapists that have no issue with porn will tell you that porn and masturbation becomes a problem when the spouse prefers masturbating to porn to having sex with their spouse. Although masturbation is normal, it is not healthy when it replaces the intimacy of real sex with a partner. She is in effect cheating on you with fantasy sex. She has her sexual needs met by fantasy masturbation and wants to cake eat now that she feel that she has you trapped with a child.


I agree to an extent.The exception I take is it doesn't "replace the intimacy"..its a way to get around intimacy.IOW she is avoiding real intimacy not getting it somewhere else.Masturbation takes care of the physical "self " need..completely circumventing intimacy with another (any other )human being.

Now for women though?My understanding slightly different than men on average.Masturbation should help her desire(not saying with porn just masturbation) stay fluid..Not every woman is the same..Most women aren't "spent" from one orgasm thats why they are able to multiple.They go from arousal to orgasm back down to arousal then to "done" ..Guys (my understanding anyway) go from arousal to orgasm to "done" (immediately).And he said she only does that once a month or every other month..I even wondered since that about their sex pattern if she uses the porn to warm up to be with him..:scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> Agree, but it needs to come out that sex is a deal-breaker for the OP. Not the MOST IMPORTANT THING (or the ONLY THING), but as one essential of several that must be present for the marriage to work.


I agree..he also needs to be prepared that all be it not the most important thing..he will lose the several other essentials.A.K.A her specifically.And she will have sex with someone else once a month.

I let my husband know that myself.If sex (me ) having sex with him was chocked up to "nothing" if not "frequent" enough...then its nothing then if I have sex at the same frequency with someone else right?That should be "nothing" too right?It doesn't "count"?Then again I'm not a dead lay..I'm also a loving mother..awesome cook..low maintanence..hilarious..I like to fish ..yep...and occasional hot sex..I can find someone else too...that I will do the things I do to him with someone else.

He changed his "deal breaker" right quick.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mcscoobs said:


> I just can't help but feel a therapist of any kind can't change her feelings towards someone? But i'm hoping against all hope that it's possible.....


A therapist can help guide you both to communicate. Meaning, all the buried stuff that you two don't talk about might come out. And a counselor can help you work through those things. And once you do work through all of it, it can bring about a change in your relationship dynamics that can open the doors to emotional intimacy and attraction again.

I don't believe "everything is perfect in our marriage except no sex". Sex is a symptom of the health of your relationship. It was not the cause of your marital problems. It was the result of your problems. _Now_, sex is causing more problems, like a snowball rolling downhill. But your relationship was going downhill already and eventually manifested itself as sex problems.

There's a lot between you - you feel you contribute more to the marriage and child care and household chores than she does, you don't spend much time doing fun things together, she spends too much time on her phone and talking to her friend from work, she's always soooo tired except when you aren't home she stays up until midnight, she doesn't like her breasts or vagina touched, she's never liked foreplay on her, she feels pressured...

I think there is resentment, emotional disconnection, physical disconnection...you are not a team, not a couple. A counselor can help brings those issues to light so you can work through them instead of letting more issues build on top of them.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Aunt Ava said:


> Most women don't understand, but it's a fact that men need sex to feel loved.


I think that's a crock. Women do understand that sex is vital to men in relationships. It's just that they resent seeing it as a responsibility or "must have".

So when that sexual aspect is at odds with a woman's goals or self-image, she gets resentful and stubborn.

IOW, a guy can logically say "I'll give what you want, you give me what I want, and we can both be happy". A lady is much more like to say "it has to be my way and on my timetable, or it's not happening" from an emotional place, even when it is to her disadvantage.

The OP's wife claims to want him to stay. But, if he said lasting change in her attitude was a requirement, she likely would dig in her heels and refuse, even though she wants him - and would say it's his fault, just to not have to change or look at herself.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I agree..he also needs to be prepared that all be it not the most important thing..he will lose the several other essentials.A.K.A her specifically.And she will have sex with someone else once a month.
> 
> I let my husband know that myself.If sex (me ) having sex with him was chocked up to "nothing" if not "frequent" enough...then its nothing then if I have sex at the same frequency with someone else right?That should be "nothing" too right?It doesn't "count"?Then again I'm not a dead lay..I'm also a loving mother..awesome cook..low maintanence..hilarious..I like to fish ..yep...and occasional hot sex..I can find someone else too...that I will do the things I do to him with someone else.
> 
> He changed his "deal breaker" right quick.


Agreed. The OP needs to be sure this really is that important to him, because he can bring her to the decision point but cannot make her choose which path to take.

I'm not clear on what you're trying to say regarding your own relationship. Is it that you got him to accept once a month by letting him know that it was that or nothing? If so, I'm not sure how I would feel about that. Once a month is simply not very much sex, no matter how good it is. Then again, I'm not privy to the dynamics of your relationship.

Maybe he lacks the self-confidence to know that he could do better also? I know, as my ex tried to tell me that no one else would want me, and for a while I believed it. Maybe he's sucking it up so that the kids aren't hurt?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> A lady is much more like to say "it has to be my way and on my timetable, or it's not happening" from an emotional place, even when it is to her disadvantage.


Men cut off sex in marriage as often as women do. This is not a uniquely female issue.


.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I think that's a crock. Women do understand that sex is vital to men in relationships. It's just that they resent seeing it as a responsibility or "must have".


Um I disagree ..MEN resent women VIEWING it as a responsibility and a must have FOR him .Sex being THAT vital to a man ..and a woman "complying" based on that understanding MEN resent .SEX is "so important to men" to feel "loved" she gets it..so she "gives him sex" then they say WAHH ..how is it she is "giving me sex".They dont WANT a woman who "gets it" and "gives it" because its "his need" and her "responsibility".He wants her to WANT HIM TOO..I have seen this 1,000 times.Otherwise you woudl be just as fulfilled having sex with a prostitute.Knows her place her "responsibility" knows the "bargain"..then you feel "loved and desired" ?..NOT..No you feel like she "gets it " and is willing to "have sex " with you to fulfill your "need".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Men cut off sex in marriage as often as women do. This is not a uniquely female issue.


I know men do this as well. Whether they do it as often as the women do is a different issue. The fact that cut off men tend to have more representation on these boards seems to indicate differently.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Men cut off sex in marriage as often as women do. This is not a uniquely female issue.
> 
> 
> .


Yes mam..I know a few..and they don't want sex to be "recognized" as important to her and to just "do it" for her "needs"..its depressing..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> I know men do this as well. Whether they do it as often as the women do is a different issue. The fact that cut off men tend to have more representation on these boards seems to indicate differently.


Less men admit they don't satisfy their wives sexaully or have libido/sexual issues..its "taboo" ..women get to be comfortable in "the man chases me I'm not interested" because its more acceptable...Men are afraid they may be called "gay" or just not "manly"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> I know men do this as well. Whether they do it as often as the women do is a different issue. The fact that cut off men tend to have more representation on these boards seems to indicate differently.



The data comes from a recent study of sexless marriages. Men cut off sex as often as women do. 

FOXSexpert: Five Reasons Men Stop Having Sex | Fox News

TAM is hardly any indicator of society at large. More men post here than woman. More men seem to seek out support on internet forums since they are less likely to have a strong support system that they can talk to in real life.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

elegirl said:


> the data comes from a recent study of sexless marriages. Men cut off sex as often as women do.
> 
> foxsexpert: Five reasons men stop having sex | fox news
> 
> tam is hardly any indicator of society at large. More men post here than woman. More men seem to seek out support on internet forums since they are less likely to have a strong support system that they can talk to in real life.


yeah!!!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Yes mam..I know a few..and they don't want sex to be "recognized" as important to her and to just "do it" for her "needs"..its depressing..


Then I suppose it would be depressing for women to feel that they have to have sex to "do it" for her "needs".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> yeah!!!!!


Question here.. are you male or female?\

ETA: I wish that people would at least put their gender/sex in their profile. It would really help.

No, I was just curious because on some posts you sound like a woman and on others you sound like a guy.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Question here.. are you male or female?\
> 
> ETA: I wish that people would at least put their gender/sex in their profile. It would really help.


I'm a female.I will add that just for you ..I guess I'll take it as a "compliment" you didn't know the difference.I hate stereotypes they barely fit...I wonder why you need to know that..??Will it change how you interact with me and why?


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Hello!

This sounds like a common situation found in a lot of marriages. I've done a lot of research in this area, and while both people need to do work here and have made mistakes, I'm going to list steps you can _choose_ to take if you want, in which you take action to improve the situation for BOTH of you.

And YES this path is you putting in a LOT of effort, but in reality you are taking control of your situation, and the rewards are fantastic.

*Step 1: Fully understand and accept each of your different needs surrounding sex as man and woman. *For a lot of people, it's entirely different.

HIS view: Sex is NOT purely physical. On the emotional level sex is how a man feels connected and loved by his partner. It is an emotional need for him to have sex, and VERY important. He cannot understand why she doesn't share his view on sex.

HER view: Sex is not AS necessary to feel connected and loved, so it's not AS important to her. She feels emotionally fulfilled primarily in other ways, and so has difficulty understanding why it's so important to a man.

*Step 2: Have a healing conversation: *

a) Validate her: Let her know that you understand that she may have felt pressured by you before (which is true from her POV, I'll get to that) and that you don't want her to feel that way, and that you'll back off for awhile (step: 3). This even by itself takes the pressure off her in a BIG way and opens up the likelihood for more sex.

b) Relate your needs: According to step 1, relate your EMOTIONAL needs surrounding sex to her. Let her know how it FEELS to make love to her. How connected you feel, how much you love her. How it makes you feel more of a good husband (whatever it is you truly feel) Do not talk about the physical, it's something she already knows about.

Understand that you are telling her all this so she has better insight into your own thinking surrounding sex, and can better understand why you feel the way you do. Women speak the language of feelings. You are NOT saying this to convince her to have sex more often, and make that known to her! 

*Step 3: Back off.* When a woman feels any pressure to have sex, you may as well be personally draining her libido. To a woman, a sex is a precious gift, and who likes giving gifts to a person who expects them all the time? (similarly, do you like doing chores for her if she EXPECTS it from you? Much nicer if she makes her feelings known and leaves you to decide when to do something for her?)

This include not mentioning sex, don't try and convince her with massages to have sex, to don't do ANYTHING to let her think you even want sex. Believe me when I say that she will not 100% believe you when you say you will "back off" and so you need to prove it to her. This is a HUGE to her. You are showing her that you are placing her needs above your own; thereby _cherishing_ her, and it's important (getting to that in step 4)

*Step 4: Focus on filling her emotional needs:* Imagine that by fulfilling her emotional needs, you are also filling her "want to have sex" gas tank. A woman is FAR more likely to _want_ to have sex when her emotional needs are being fulfilled by her husband, so you're giving her the fuel she needs to give more of herself in a sexual manner.

It will be hard to relate ALL of what you can do here because people write entire books on a woman's emotional needs, but I'll try to say a few needs succinctly, but research these things online or find books like Men are from Mars/Women from Venus.

a) Cherish her: She needs to feel like you consider her needs and feelings ALL THE TIME. Like your need for sex, she needs to feel like she's on your mind all the time. For example ; You say she complains of being tired? Is there anything you can do to make her feel less tired? Does she dread a certain chore in the day, and are you able to do that for her? Do it! When she notices, say you didn't want her to feel so stressed during the day. DING DING! You've earned major cherishing points. Again, that's just one of a million ways you can do this, research it!

b) Validate her feelings: When she talks to you about ANYTHING focus on how she FEELS about the topic, and let her know in words you care about those feelings. Do NOT offer a solution! Proper validation is almost an artform and needs research and practice, but the basics I just wrote are a great first step.

Those are but two core needs, and would be a great place for you to focus energies during this time. 

And do not just do these things to get sex. These should be lifelong changes for the embetterment of your marriage and happiness of your wife. 

*Step 5: Have Patience* If you've done all the above correctly, your wife WILL return the favor. It will take a little time for her to trust that you are SINCERE in your goals (i.e. not just out to get sex, but to make her happy). Once she does recognize your integrity to make her happy, watch out! She'll be returning the favor full force 

Good luck to you!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Um I disagree ..MEN resent women VIEWING it as a responsibility and a must have FOR him .Sex being THAT vital to a man ..and a woman "complying" based on that understanding MEN resent .SEX is "so important to men" to feel "loved" she gets it..so she "gives him sex" then they say WAHH ..how is it she is "giving me sex".They dont WANT a woman who "gets it" and "gives it" because its "his need" and her "responsibility".He wants her to WANT HIM TOO..I have seen this 1,000 times.Otherwise you woudl be just as fulfilled having sex with a prostitute.Knows her place her "responsibility" knows the "bargain"..then you feel "loved and desired" ?..NOT..No you feel like she "gets it " and is willing to "have sex " with you to fulfill your "need".


I must disagree with this. You are being too binary - either she is horny for him or she is just complying to meet his need. 

There is a third option - a middle ground between these two extremes. That is where the lady is not horny herself but *cheerfully* meets his need anyways out of love for him and respect for the relationship.

When you buy your kids Christmas presents, is it because you expect something back? Do you say "Here - I got you something because you'll bug me about 'Christmas' this and 'Christmas' that until I do."? When you have to change a diaper do you say "why can't you wipe your own a$$"? Probably not. It's more likely you are making a loving sacrifice for a loved one.

If my ex had said to me "I'm rarely horny, but will work on it. And, until that time comes, I will rock your world regularly because I see how much you sacrifice for me and the kids, I would have been STOKED. I would not have said "well, if you're not horny then don't bother". I think most guys are in agreement with me.

The problem is not doing it out of responsibility. The problem is doing it in a way that shows you are unhappy or troubled. How does your husband address needs of yours to which he is uninterested? Does he say "crap, if I really have to I will"? Probably not.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I must disagree with this. You are being too binary - either she is horny for him or she is just complying to meet his need.


No I agree with that..Problem is if she is "agreeing" and complying its a "need of his"..He will NOT be satisfied..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> That is where the lady is not horny herself but cheerfully meets his need anyways out of love for him and respect for the relationship.


My husband hates that../'that is like faking being happy for a child's birthday party when actually I would have rather watched the clouds or stared at a blank wall..I meet the childrens needs but what I really enjoy is "fill in the blank" with sex (unwanted ) several times a week its obvious what I enjoy and dont..He knows my genuine smile..what I like and dont like.."enthusiasm" faked is just that FAKED..and my husband knows the difference..My husband HATES fake cheerfulness...and thats what it is..if I'm not really happy...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ComicBookLady said:


> Hello!
> 
> This sounds like a common situation found in a lot of marriages. I've done a lot of research in this area, and while both people need to do work here and have made mistakes, I'm going to list steps you can _choose_ to take if you want, in which you take action to improve the situation for BOTH of you.
> 
> ...


You know, this sounds good but there are a couple of serious problems with this advice:

1) It places the responsibility of the man's shoulders. It places his needs as inferior to hers. He should sacrifice to earn sex. Just being an ordinary decent husband is not enough to get sex. I find that offensive. 

Sex should not be seen as a precious one-way gift from the woman to the man; it is something both of them bestow on each other (she also gets the loving and she gets a good guy to call her own). Or, if you'd rather, the guy is making an equally precious gift of forsaking all others for her and doing the manly things she expects. She needs to give back.

2) If somebody decides to follow this advice, I would strongly urge them to do it for only a limited period of time (say six months). If by then she isn't meeting his sexual need, the odds that she ever will are negligible, and he needs to reevaluate.

3) Personally, I would try this, but on a one-time basis only. It's one thing if a lady needs to have her insecurities dealt with, or needs smaller signs of his affection periodically. But a woman who regularly requests to reset the relationship in this manner has other issues going on, and doing the above repeatedly will not help.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> 1) It places the responsibility of the man's shoulders. It places his needs as inferior to hers. He should sacrifice to earn sex. Just being an ordinary decent husband is not enough to get sex. I find that offensive.


It doesn't place his needs as "INFERIOR" just different..
and "getting sex" from her as you phrase it is a TURN OFF./And she finds that "offensive"//


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

HEY ...I want to have sex once a monht???I'll have it with ANYONE .Not YOU ...SEX IS SEX!!!It doesnt NEED to be YOU ///So every 3 weeks I will DO anyone!!!!YEAH,,,14 to 20 times a year I will SCREW whoever!!!


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

DTO said:


> You know, this sounds good but there are a couple of serious problems with this advice:
> 
> 1) It places the responsibility of the man's shoulders. It places his needs as inferior to hers. He should sacrifice to earn sex. Just being an ordinary decent husband is not enough to get sex. I find that offensive.


I understand how you could come to this conclusion based on my post. 

My post is extremely one-sided for things HE could do. If I were talking to her I'd have a list for her try. My post is tailored for him so he could try to take control of his situation.



> Sex should not be seen as a precious one-way gift from the woman to the man; it is something both of them bestow on each other (she also gets the loving and she gets a good guy to call her own). Or, if you'd rather, the guy is making an equally precious gift of forsaking all others for her and doing the manly things she expects. She needs to give back.


I completely agree with you! My "gift" analogy was to illustrate what it's like for a woman to give of herself sexually, same as when a man gives anything to her in other areas. The problem is, they are both stuck in the "off" position. She's not giving him sex, he's (most likely) not fulfilling her needs in the other areas in the way she needs them (not his fault, it's hard to learn what a woman truly wants, we're quite fickle).

It just takes one person to take the first step and flip THEIR switch to ON and keep it there. This will in turn get the other person to do it too. As I'm talking to HIM I'm giving his option to how to do that. Getting into the conversation on "who goes first" is fruitless, because the only 100% fair way is for BOTH people go at the same time. Waiting around for that to happen will likely take MUCH longer than him (or her) deciding to just take the dang first step for sake of both their happinesses.



> 2) If somebody decides to follow this advice, I would strongly urge them to do it for only a limited period of time (say six months). If by then she isn't meeting his sexual need, the odds that she ever will are negligible, and he needs to reevaluate


.

Good advice. Do give it SOME time, because benefits may not rush out of the gate all at once, and may come in trickles if she's pulled back too far in the sex department. But yeah if in 6 months nothing at ALL has gotten better, it's time to re-evaluate for sure!



> 3) Personally, I would try this, but on a one-time basis only. It's one thing if a lady needs to have her insecurities dealt with, or needs smaller signs of his affection periodically. But a woman who regularly requests to reset the relationship in this manner has other issues going on, and doing the above repeatedly will not help.


Just for added clarity, She's not actively sitting back and waiting for him to do anything. I doubt SHE even understands why she doesn't want sex that much. It sounds like she's not aware of her core needs in life, so her researching them could help her tremendously. 

If he tried this, I think he'd be armed with more knowledge than she has on the entire situation, and could go with her to discover and discuss each other's needs in the relationship. It's all about growing and learning together! 

And for more clarity, she will ALWAYS need her emotional needs met, for the rest of her life, to be happy. Just as HE will always have needs (like sex) that need to be met for his happiness. When both people are giving freely to the other in those particular area, that's when true marital happiness begins.

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my post!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> My husband hates that../'that is like faking being happy for a child's birthday party when actually I would have rather watched the clouds or stared at a blank wall..I meet the childrens needs but what I really enjoy is "fill in the blank" with sex (unwanted ) several times a week its obvious what I enjoy and dont..He knows my genuine smile..what I like and dont like.."enthusiasm" faked is just that FAKED..and my husband knows the difference..My husband HATES fake cheerfulness...and thats what it is..if I'm not really happy...


I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about a woman faking anything. I am talking about a woman genuinely wanting to make me happy in the way that I will appreciate most. There is no faking of anything. There is a genuine regard for the other that equals the regard for self.

There are times when low libido is caused by relationship issues, to be sure. But, there are other times when there is just a lack of desire for other reasons. IMO when that happens the lady is damaging the relationship but letting her "horniness" drive the level of sex. And, to the extent that a lady is willing to lovingly give, her husband is harming the relationship by refusing it.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

You need to have "the talk" with her. It goes something like this:

"You need to decide right now whether you want to be married to me. If you do, we have to have a healthy sex life. This is not optional. For me to be happy, I need sex at least twice a week. It has to be passionate and enthusiastic and you have to actively participate. That is what I need to be in a happy marriage. 

If you can't or won't give me that, then you need to tell me right now because I am not willing to live my life unhappy. Period. This is a legitimate emotional and physical need for me. We love each other and are in a monogamous relationship. That implies we are willing to do what we can to meet each other's needs. 

If you're willing to do that, tell me now. Commit to it and follow through. If you're not, we need to call it quits right now."

Note: This is not a one-way thing. If she's willing to commit to this for you, you need to make sure you're meeting her emotional needs as well. Take care of what she needs taken care of. Don't be her doormat. Take charge ands make decisions. Romance her and make her laugh.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about a woman faking anything. I am talking about a woman genuinely wanting to make me happy in the way that I will appreciate most. There is no faking of anything. There is a genuine regard for the other that equals the regard for self.
> 
> There are times when low libido is caused by relationship issues, to be sure. But, there are other times when there is just a lack of desire for other reasons. IMO when that happens the lady is damaging the relationship but letting her "horniness" drive the level of sex. And, to the extent that a lady is willing to lovingly give, her husband is harming the relationship by refusing it.


EXACTLY ..so if she DOESNT want to have sex with you having sex with you "anyway" cause she "gets " thats what is important to YOU will NOT help...


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover: I like a lot of what you said, but if it's okay, may I edit what you said as to deliver the important parts of your message in a more receptive way to a woman?



> You need to have "the talk" with her. It goes something like this:
> 
> "For me, a healthy sex life is important for a happy marriage. Sex to me as a man is an emotional and physical need for me to feel happy and loved. I don't want you to feel pressured to do this for me, because when we make love I want you to feel passionate and enthusiastic about it, and I want you to WANT to actively participate.
> 
> ...



What I mostly did was A) take out the ultimatum, that would KILL her libido and desire to make you happy if she feels forced; and B) took out the numbers of sex per week. Numbers are logical and constricting, and will only make her feel more forced to do something a certain number of times a week, and make it a chore (aka: giving her a number will make it harder for her to giveyou sex in an _enthusiastic_ manner).; and C) Added in some reciprocal sentences to let her know you're open to her feelings and her desires in the marriage.

Also note, in my phrasing, you're delivering the information without the demand. That is critical!

EDIT: None of this was to say you're wrong for wanting sex 2 times a week, or feeling any way about what you wrote. I edited it for purpose as to consider the others feelings more, and to be able to drive home your main points to her in a non demanding way.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> You need to decide right now whether you want to be married to me. If you do, we have to have a healthy sex life. This is not optional. For me to be happy, I need sex at least twice a week. It has to be passionate and enthusiastic and you have to actively participate. That is what I need to be in a happy marriage.


My husband had that "talk" with me I told him get a divorce then..I will have sex with a different man 2 times a month..(and I would of could of) ..he changed his mind..I don't "fu88ck" under threat of divorce'..you want me to?If its like that? I will screw every man that walks by.If its about screwing..I will show you..thats not my issue..If ahving sex with me 2 times a month is "nothing" (doesnt count" then ME screwing 2 different men every month shouldnt bother you because thats "nothing"..And I dont mind..:smthumbup:

If we are "divorced" I will screw |SOMEONE at LEAST once a month..BYE BYE !!!!!Go get yoru "dream girl"/:lol:


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



ComicBookLady said:


> Drover: I like a lot of what you said, but if it's okay, may I edit what you said as to deliver the important parts of your message in a more receptive way to a woman?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree. You took out the critical parts. She has to view this as an ultimatum. That's what it is. That is the point. It gets no attention otherwise, and gets paid lip service. As for the number, she already feels like she's doing her monthly duty and feels no reason to give more. 

There are plenty of things I feel no compulsion, no desire to do. But I do them enthusiastically for her because I love her & want to make her happy. I choose to want to do them for her. That's part of love.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



dallasapple said:


> My husband had that "talk" with me I told him get a divorce then..I will have sex with a different man 2 times a month..(and I would of could of) ..he changed his mind..I don't "fu88ck" under threat of divorce'..you want me to?If its like that? I will screw every man that walks by.If its about screwing..I will show you..thats not my issue..If ahving sex with me 2 times a month is "nothing" (doesnt count" then ME screwing 2 different men every month shouldnt bother you because thats "nothing"..And I dont mind..:smthumbup:
> 
> If we are "divorced" I will screw |SOMEONE at LEAST once a month..BYE BYE !!!!!Go get yoru "dream girl"/:lol:


You feel no need to meet his needs or want to please him. That's fine. He should drop you like a hot rock. Why would he care who you screw after divorce? That's just ridiculous. You think you're somehow getting over on him by doing that? Marriage & love aren't about keeping score. They're about meeting each others needs...WANTING to meet each others needs. Since you clearly don't care about that, assuming he does want to meet yours, why should he stay with you or give two sh*ts what you do after the divorce?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> EXACTLY ..so if she DOESNT want to have sex with you having sex with you "anyway" cause she "gets " thats what is important to YOU will NOT help...


No, that's still not quite right. It's more like she is not horny and does not need sex but she still wants to have sex with me because (1) I meet the needs she does have, (2) she is genuinely appreciative of that and wants to show it, and (3) basic fairness compels her to give back as well as she gets.

I think the disconnect here is twofold. One, as stated before, is the attitude she's either horny and wants it, or she's not and she's sucking it up. You cannot comprehend that she might want to lovingly provide because he is good to her.

The second disconnect is that the notion of "if I am good to her she will inevitably be horny" is a fallacy. Sure that happens sometimes. But sometimes the woman just has a really low drive. Or she likes sex but has it as a low priority (as in she is not willing to give up her favorite TV show or Facebook time). Or she has other stresses that have nothing to do with him.

Let's try this another way, since I'm genuinely curious as to how you would handle this situation (where a guy is a good and attentive husband but wife is strictly a 1-2x per month and does not seem motivated to try harder. 

Another good question: assuming your husband would like much more sex than he gets now, how do you reconcile the fact he serves you daily with your attitude that he gets it good once per month and he can piss off if that's not good enough? What do you provide that makes the infrequent sex acceptable? Do you see him as a slacker that does not give you much, or that he's batting out of his league and you're sacrificing better opportunities to remain with him?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> You feel no need to meet his needs or want to please him. That's fine. He should drop you like a hot rock. Why would he care who you screw after divorce? That's just ridiculous. You think you're somehow getting over on him by doing that? Marriage & love aren't about keeping score. They're about meeting each others needs...WANTING to meet each others needs. Since you clearly don't care about that, assuming he does want to meet yours, why should he stay with you or give two sh*ts what you do after the divorce?


Agree.

From what I've read, it seems that she sees her husband as somewhat of an underachiever relative to herself. I hear an attitude of "I'm the total package but he's a dime a dozen", where the calculus is less about being fair and giving as good as she gets, and more about maximizing her own utility.

Then again, maybe the guy is a slacker who has a crappy job and goes to the bar 3x a week while she holds down the fort, and in that case getting it good once a month is not bad.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Drover said:


> You feel no need to meet his needs or want to please him. That's fine. He should drop you like a hot rock. Why would he care who you screw after divorce? That's just ridiculous. You think you're somehow getting over on him by doing that? Marriage & love aren't about keeping score. They're about meeting each others needs...WANTING to meet each others needs. Since you clearly don't care about that, assuming he does want to meet yours, why should he stay with you or give two sh*ts what you do after the divorce?


Because he doesn't want to divorce me if I do all those things to "other" men...It IS keeping "score" if we are talking divorce its I "only" screw him "once a month" and that's "nothing" ...then I will only screw one other man a month and it should be NOTHING!

Ask him why..


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover said:


> You feel no need to meet his needs or want to please him. That's fine. He should drop you like a hot rock. Why would he care who you screw after divorce? That's just ridiculous. You think you're somehow getting over on him by doing that? Marriage & love aren't about keeping score. They're about meeting each others needs...WANTING to meet each others needs. Since you clearly don't care about that, assuming he does want to meet yours, why should he stay with you or give two sh*ts what you do after the divorce?


I understand you feel that way, and you're right that freely giving these loving gestures is best (like you say you do for your wife). That's why I edited the conversation so it gives her the option to still give it freely and with _real_ enthusiasm (because she chose to, not because it was demanded of her).

May I ask, if she in turn gave you an ultimatum to do something for her X time's a week or get out, would want to then give those things to her (and do so enthusiastically?)


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> I disagree. You took out the critical parts. She has to view this as an ultimatum. That's what it is. That is the point. It gets no attention otherwise, and gets paid lip service. As for the number, she already feels like she's doing her monthly duty and feels no reason to give more.


I agree.

I want to clarify that the goal of the ultimatum is not to create a long-term dynamic of her living having sex just so that he won't leave. Making it a "risk/reward" analysis just results in manuvering against each other to get the most for the least.

The goal is to shake her out of her complancency and make her acknowledge a problem. He's not just pushing her buttons or making bullsh!t complaints. Then, it's up to her to decide whether she's going to do the work necessary to be able to meet his need, or whether she doesn't care that much.

You can make soft requests and pleads for more sex for years on end and not get anywhere. I've been just there, so I know.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> Agree.
> 
> From what I've read, it seems that she sees her husband as somewhat of an underachiever relative to herself. I hear an attitude of "I'm the total package but he's a dime a dozen", where the calculus is less about being fair and giving as good as she gets, and more about maximizing her own utility.
> 
> Then again, maybe the guy is a slacker who has a crappy job and goes to the bar 3x a week while she holds down the fort, and in that case getting it good once a month is not bad.



I think that is sad..If your husband can "get" other women he traded your for them..and that's fine just make that decision.I'de be hi fiving him..(paws off of me of course)We could all be hi fiving a dude got laid...


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



ComicBookLady said:


> I understand you feel that way, and you're right that freely giving these loving gestures is best (like you say you do for your wife). That's why I edited the conversation so it gives her the option to still give it freely and with _real_ enthusiasm (because she chose to, not because it was demanded of her).
> 
> May I ask, if she in turn gave you an ultimatum to do something for her X time's a week or get out, would want to then give those things to her (and do so enthusiastically?)


This is an excellent question. And note, that's not how I phrased my "talk". My verbiage was about needs being met, and happy marriage, etc. Not "do this or get out". The implication of the ultimatum is important, just as much to him as her, but I didn't say be nasty about it.

If she said she really needs xyz to be happy, for her to consider our marriage to be a happy and successful one, and she's simply not willing to remain in a marriage she isn't happy in, and all my needs are being met...then yes, I would try to meet her needs for xyz enthusiastically.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

In terms of women having a lower libido than men, that's entirely valid. That happens often too.

In that case though, a woman cannot FORCE her libido higher, just like a man cannot FORCE his libido lower. 

So demanding her to have sex MORE than she's comfortable with (and _enthusiastically_ as well) is _impossible_ for her. 

Can she in turn demand the man to make due with less sex? Of course not!

The couple in this instance (where the culprit is low libido/high libido vs. unmet needs) reeeeallly needs to have a heart to heart and try to find a solution that both people are happy with. 

I hope in OP's instance the culprit is unmet needs, because at least that way there's a much easier solution.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

dallasapple, you really seem to be missing not only the point of this discussion but the whole point of marriage.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



ComicBookLady said:


> In terms of women having a lower libido than men, that's entirely valid. That happens often too.
> 
> In that case though, a woman cannot FORCE her libido higher, just like a man cannot FORCE his libido lower.
> 
> ...


She doesn't have to force her libido higher. She can find enthusiasm in her desire to please him. Men do this every day.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ComicBookLady said:


> I understand you feel that way, and you're right that freely giving these loving gestures is best (like you say you do for your wife). That's why I edited the conversation so it gives her the option to still give it freely and with _real_ enthusiasm (because she chose to, not because it was demanded of her).
> 
> May I ask, if she in turn gave you an ultimatum to do something for her X time's a week or get out, would want to then give those things to her (and do so enthusiastically?)


I know this was not directed at me, but since I agree with Dover I'm going to weigh in.

If my wife were pushing herself to have good sex with me several times per week, I would be meeting her needs just as enthusiastically without being told. Somebody meeting my needs makes me want to give back. If I don't like someone that much to want to give back I would not take much in the first place. Either way, there would be no ultimatum issued.

Caveat - proportionality and feasibility are key. If, for instance, she's working a straight 40 hours and I'm putting in 50-60, then I have less time to give back and that needs to be considered. Or, OTOH, if she wants something I simply cannot provide (like a big home or a Lexus), a request harmful to the family will not fly either.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I think that is sad..If your husband can "get" other women he traded your for them..and that's fine just make that decision.I'de be hi fiving him..(paws off of me of course)We could all be hi fiving a dude got laid...


I'm a guy.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover said:


> This is an excellent question. And note, that's not how I phrased my "talk". My verbiage was about needs being met, and happy marriage, etc. Not "do this or get out". The implication of the ultimatum is important, just as much to him as her, but I didn't say be nasty about it.
> 
> If she said she really needs xyz to be happy, for her to consider our marriage to be a happy and successful one, and she's simply not willing to remain in a marriage she isn't happy in, and all my needs are being met...then yes, I would try to meet her needs for xyz enthusiastically.



Thank you for that, and I think I see what you mean. Am I understanding correctly that the purpose of the ultimatum type wording was to punctuate the seriousness of the fact that you cannot be happy (or remain) in the marriage unless your needs in that area were met?

To help clarify, my purpose in re-wording that was not to say "This is how you MUST or SHOULD write this" It was to help illustrate to anyone interested, that women will see that "talk" in a COMPLETELY different light than you intend it, and offer another option.

A very logical brained man wrote it, but when a very emotionally brained woman reads it, she will take it completely different than how the man intended it, and it won't garner the compliance he's hoping for. So I re-worded it (in woman language  )in the way that would most likely get what he wants.

Thank you for your well written thoughts


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Note I'm not suggesting this as some way to woo her. Implied in the advice to use a talk like this is a situation which has been ongoing for quite some time in which he is at the end of his patience and has run out of ways to make her see the importance of a sex life to him. 

I was in this boat for years. My wife just viewed my requests for more sex as whining. Because more sex wasn't a need for her, she viewed it that way for me. 

Also for years I didn't understand that she didn't understand and thought she was just being uncaring.

And once she understood the importance to me, she was much more willing. Because she loves me and does want to meet my needs.

This will only work if she does want to meet your needs. If she doesn't care about your needs, it won't and why do you really want to be married to someone like that anyway?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ComicBookLady said:


> In terms of women having a lower libido than men, that's entirely valid. That happens often too.
> 
> In that case though, a woman cannot FORCE her libido higher, just like a man cannot FORCE his libido lower.
> 
> ...


And because so much tension builds up between them and it's become such a loaded issue, it ends up being very hard to have that honest heart to heart. 

Sex becomes so wrapped up in layers of sensitivities that it's hard to separate it and address it by itself.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

DTO said:


> I know this was not directed at me, but since I agree with Dover I'm going to weigh in.
> 
> If my wife were pushing herself to have good sex with me several times per week, I would be meeting her needs just as enthusiastically without being told. Somebody meeting my needs makes me want to give back. If I don't like someone that much to want to give back I would not take much in the first place. Either way, there would be no ultimatum issued.
> 
> Caveat - proportionality and feasibility are key. If, for instance, she's working a straight 40 hours and I'm putting in 50-60, then I have less time to give back and that needs to be considered. Or, OTOH, if she wants something I simply cannot provide (like a big home or a Lexus), a request harmful to the family will not fly either.


Thank you for this! I agree with you for quite a bit of that! :smthumbup:

RE: "Somebody meeting my needs makes me want to give back. "

This is exactly what is what I'm proposing to OP. They are both stuck not giving each other what they need to give back (note: I am only assuming he is not fulfilling her emotional needs. I'd need to hear from her to be certain if he is or not. My assumptions mostly come from the fact that most men and women do not truly understand each other's needs, and so do not fulfill them properly) 

If my theory is correct, and he decides to take the first step and freely give to her in those areas, This would essentially be trying to jump start their giving back and forth to each other freely and genuinely. 

There's different things she could try too, but as I cannot talk to her, I can only give him advice from his side on what he could do, if he _chose_ to. It's entirely his decision.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

norajane said:


> And because so much tension builds up between them and it's become such a loaded issue, it ends up being very hard to have that honest heart to heart.
> 
> Sex becomes so wrapped up in layers of sensitivities that it's hard to separate it and address it by itself.


YES! It's a difficult issue for sure. The answer usually lies in the middle somewhere, when both people either give a little more or expect a little less, or find another solution entirely. It all requires an honest, respectful, non-demanding heart to heart where each person has the intent to make the other person happy. And the solution needs to be met enthusiastically by _both_ people. It's difficult!


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover said:


> Note I'm not suggesting this as some way to woo her. Implied in the advice to use a talk like this is a situation which has been ongoing for quite some time in which he is at the end of his patience and has run out of ways to make her see the importance of a sex life to him.
> 
> I was in this boat for years. My wife just viewed my requests for more sex as whining. Because more sex wasn't a need for her, she viewed it that way for me.
> 
> ...


I'm SO HAPPY that things ended well for your case and things are better!! 

You are also right about if she doesn't want to meet his needs, then she won't. I'm guessing though that as she married him, she loves him and wants to make him happy (at least I'm very hopeful that's the case!)


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover said:


> She doesn't have to force her libido higher. She can find enthusiasm in her desire to please him. Men do this every day.


Good point! I actually agree with you. 

However if I may give better clarification on what I mean: Any time she performs above her natural set libido it wouldn't be genuine (aka "she doesn't really want to buuuut okay."). That in itself I am NOT saying is necessarily bad. _Occasionally_ having sex when you don't feel like it for the other's happiness can indeed be a nice thing to do, but it's only positive for both people (which is what we're shooting for, right?) when she chooses to do so, and it wasn't demanded/expected of her. And she could indeed draw from enthusiasm to make her husband happy in those instances to make the entire thing a positive situation.

But if the husbands demands are waaay higher than her set libido level (the level where she still wants it too) then things start getting really difficult, because then she's _primarily_ having sex to please only him, and after awhile of trying to fulfill a much higher demand, sex feels more like a chore. That in turn drains her libido entirely, and she's incredibly unhappy. And I don't think men want sex ALL the time if she's not into it herself (please say I'm not wrong!) It's such a difficult situation!

That is what I meant by "impossible". It IS impossible to expect her to _naturally_ want more sex, and if your libido's are entirely different, it would also be impossible to expect her to _enthusiastically_ fulfill your entire needs and have it be happy for her too.

Which brings me to: If the tables were turned and she said that YOU needed to want _less_ sex, would you be able to do so? If so by how much and could you do it for the life of your marriage?

(I'm actually interested in hearing this, as I only know the woman's perspective  )


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

BTW I do understand the pressure/intimidation negative impact on the female libido. I get that pressure to have sex, to perform has a negative impact, as does tying a huge amount of emotional baggage to the act of sex...something I know I probably did in the psst when I wasn't getting enough. Performance anxiety is intimidating for both sexes. My current goal is to find ways to take that out of our sex life and make it more just fun. It's not easy to do after years of baggage, but I'm working at it.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Drover said:


> BTW I do understand the pressure/intimidation negative impact on the female libido. I get that pressure to have sex, to perform has a negative impact, as does tying a huge amount of emotional baggage to the act of sex...something I know I probably did in the psst when I wasn't getting enough. Performance anxiety is intimidating for both sexes. My current goal is to find ways to take that out of our sex life and make it more just fun. It's not easy to do after years of baggage, but I'm working at it.


You sound like you have a very even mind when it comes to this topic. Your wife is very lucky! Thinking like that, I am sure you'll both overcome any obstacle. :smthumbup:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> She doesn't have to force her libido higher. She can find enthusiasm in her desire to please him. Men do this every day.


Well you are different my husband doesn't want me to "find enthusiasm to please him" sexaually he wants me to WANT him just as much as he wants me.

And what do you mean men do this every day?Men have sex when they don't want to with enthusiasm every day?Well so do women they are actors and actresses.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Drover said:


> BTW I do understand the pressure/intimidation negative impact on the female libido. I get that pressure to have sex, to perform has a negative impact, as does tying a huge amount of emotional baggage to the act of sex...something I know I probably did in the psst when I wasn't getting enough. Performance anxiety is intimidating for both sexes. My current goal is to find ways to take that out of our sex life and make it more just fun. It's not easy to do after years of baggage, but I'm working at it.


That sounds reasonable.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ComicBookLady said:


> Good point! I actually agree with you.
> 
> However if I may give better clarification on what I mean: Any time she performs above her natural set libido it wouldn't be genuine (aka "she doesn't really want to buuuut okay."). That in itself I am NOT saying is necessarily bad. _Occasionally_ having sex when you don't feel like it for the other's happiness can indeed be a nice thing to do, but it's only positive for both people (which is what we're shooting for, right?) when she chooses to do so, and it wasn't demanded/expected of her. And she could indeed draw from enthusiasm to make her husband happy in those instances to make the entire thing a positive situation.
> 
> ...


This is spot on..occasionally "finding" enthusiasm when you don't really want sex is one thing.But occassionally many times a week more than you want is point blank impossible to "fake" for me .Sex is just far to personal and I'm not that good of a liar.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

DTO said:


> Agree.
> 
> From what I've read, it seems that she sees her husband as somewhat of an underachiever relative to herself. I hear an attitude of "I'm the total package but he's a dime a dozen", where the calculus is less about being fair and giving as good as she gets, and more about maximizing her own utility.
> 
> Then again, maybe the guy is a slacker who has a crappy job and goes to the bar 3x a week while she holds down the fort, and in that case getting it good once a month is not bad.


No..I'm not the "total package" and hes a dime a dozen.I'm me.And If me once a month is "nothing" then me once a month with a different guy shouldnt matter should it?How am I saying I'm "the total" package that If I'm not "enough' for him I will find a man that I am enough for once a month?He can have "nothing" and I will give "something" to someone else?

I think the point is..If I slept with a "new man" tonight..never slept with him before and never slept with him again that ONE time would be a HUGE ordeal and hold HUGE meaning to my husband probably as if I had GIVEN my entire SOUL to another man for enternity from one good 30 minute romp.So why would only "once a month" with him(my husband) be equivelant to "nothing"? Or If its about "quantity" and thats the "meaning" then I can have REAL passionate sex once a month with a stranger and the other 29 30 days out of the month with my husband(finding enthusiasm but not really wanting him) and he shouldn't mind because the strange man doesn't "count' because its "only once a month"?

And for what its worth not that it matters now this thread is a total derail..but I like sex more than once a month.WITH my husband.And NO he doesn't and hasn't ever come come close to meeting my OTHER needs besides sexual and even those he about ruined with his emphasis on "more".

:soapbox:


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



dallasapple said:


> No..I'm not the "total package" and hes a dime a dozen.I'm me.And If me once a month is "nothing" then me once a month with a different guy shouldnt matter should it?How am I saying I'm "the total" package that If I'm not "enough' for him I will find a man that I am enough for once a month?He can have "nothing" and I will give "something" to someone else?
> 
> I think the point is..If I slept with a "new man" tonight..never slept with him before and never slept with him again that ONE time would be a HUGE ordeal and hold HUGE meaning to my husband probably as if I had GIVEN my entire SOUL to another man for enternity from one good 30 minute romp.So why would only "once a month" with him(my husband) be equivelant to "nothing"? Or If its about "quantity" and thats the "meaning" then I can have REAL passionate sex once a month with a stranger and the other 29 30 days out of the month with my husband(finding enthusiasm but not really wanting him) and he shouldn't mind because the strange man doesn't "count' because its "only once a month"?
> 
> ...


Stop trying to keep score. This will kill any marriage. Explain your needs and ask him to try to meet them and commit to doing the same for him. Why are you so bent on his wanting more sex as being evil or cruel. This is a very real, tangible need for him. Your acting like his need is nothing.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Drover said:


> Stop trying to keep score. This will kill any marriage. Explain your needs and ask him to try to meet them and commit to doing the same for him. Why are you so bent on his wanting more sex as being evil or cruel. This is a very real, tangible need for him. Your acting like his need is nothing.


If I thought his "need" was nothing I would dismiss it and not even bother to discuss it.And I never said his "wanting more sex" was evil or cruel..Its more like 'Im "cruel and evil" because I don't.

And what you dont "get" about me is I have a husband that WANTS me to WANT it .(or did) every single day(sometimes twice) ..and I didn't "want'" it..Doing "it" wasn't "good enough" and saying no? Made me "abnormal"..(not wanting sex every day HIS opinion made me "abnormal")..And it meant I didn't love him ..(not as much as he love me)...Now that was 20 some odd years ago..Please don't tell me I dont understand the meaning of marriage..At least not mine .O.K?

And P.S I don't "demand" my needs be met..I'm not keeping score..Comments are made such as she should have enthusiastic sex after all men do such and such to please there wives when they don't want for them....That's bull..Some do I'm sure..but most I dare say don't perfectly meet their woman's "needs"..And I would never "demand" that either..I certainly wouldn't want fake enthusiasm him "performing' a "need " of mine..Maybe that's how we will hit 25 years in June..

And I don't look at other grass either..That's smoke and mirrors..If we dumped each other looking for greener grass?He and I both for sure would just have to work on pulling weeds out of a different (strange) garden..Better to try and put a sprinkler system in our established one..The one we have toiled the soil.

Anyway ..Im not derailing this poor mans thread anymore..I feel guilty enough ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Drover said:


> She doesn't have to force her libido higher. She can find enthusiasm in her desire to please him. Men do this every day.


Are you saying that the LD wife should have sex when she is not able to be turned on to please him and do it with enthusiasm?

Having sex when one's hormones are such that they cannot be turned on is not exactly the same as, say doing the dishes.

ETA: Under the same idea, since men choses to be sexless in marriages as often as women do... I would assume that you also believe that men should give their wives sex when she wants it even if he does not want to have sex?


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that the LD wife should have sex when she is not able to be turned on to please him and do it with enthusiasm?
> 
> Having sex when one's hormones are such that they cannot be turned on is not exactly the same as, say doing the dishes.
> 
> ETA: Under the same idea, since men choses to be sexless in marriages as often as women do... I would assume that you also believe that men should give their wives sex when she wants it even if he does not want to have sex?


As a practical matter, they will not remain together in a happy marriage unless sexual needs are being met so the LD partner (male or female) had better do what they can to meet those needs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Drover said:


> As a practical matter, they will not remain together in a happy marriage unless sexual needs are being met so the LD partner (male or female) had better do what they can to meet those needs.


Well, you are right that the sex is an important part of a marriage. But usually when sex ends there is a reason that needs to be addressed. Sure the spouse who does not want sex could just be a selfish, mean person. It's much more likely that some very important need(s) of theirs is not being met. If the need(s) is met again the passion can return to the marriage.

I do not think anyone should just have sex to keep their spouse when they have no desire for sex or for their spouse.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: Re: Sexless marriage?*



EleGirl said:


> Well, you are right that the sex is an important part of a marriage. But usually when sex ends there is a reason that needs to be addressed. Sure the spouse who does not want sex could just be a selfish, mean person. It's much more likely that some very important need(s) of theirs is not being met. If the need(s) is met again the passion can return to the marriage.
> 
> I do not think anyone should just have sex to keep their spouse when they have no desire for sex or for their spouse.


I agree with this. I've posted over and over that both parties have the responsibility to meet the other's needs. But we can agree that even with that done drives don't always balance out. Also by the time they figure things out, there's a lot of baggage and frankly, it takes linger for women to rid themselves of that than men. It just isn't reasonable that he's going to forgo sex during the months it takes her to do that.

Yes, he shouldn't have let it come to that. But he probably didn't understand it, just as she didn't. Now it's time to move forward, doing the best you can for each other and yourself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Drover said:


> I agree with this. I've posted over and over that both parties have the responsibility to meet the other's needs. But we can agree that even with that done drives don't always balance out. Also by the time they figure things out, there's a lot of baggage and frankly, it takes linger for women to rid themselves of that than men. It just isn't reasonable that he's going to forgo sex during the months it takes her to do that.
> 
> Yes, he shouldn't have let it come to that. But he probably didn't understand it, just as she didn't. Now it's time to move forward, doing the best you can for each other and yourself.


While I do not think that a person should have sex just out of obligation, I do believe that both spouse have an obligation to figure out what the problem is and fix it. I don't understand people who refuse to work on fixing things so that the passion returns.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> it takes linger for women to rid themselves of that than men. It just isn't reasonable that he's going to forgo sex during the months it takes her to do that.


Untrue..men (and women) can engage in sex and continue to harbor resentments outside of bed.Sex doesn't "fix it".So in the meantime you are just screwing.I have known of people going through a divorce that continue to screw..and that's the point..that's all it is..My point? If I have sex just for the sake of having sex ANYONE will do ..I'll pick by favor the look..or you fancy me for the second..If its "unreasonable " he will "forego" sex while he waits for the one he supposedly wants to have sex with to get over it? GO get "it' somewhere else"..It proves the point..its not ME you want its SEX...(with anyone)


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> While I do not think that a person should have sex just out of obligation, I do believe that both spouse have an obligation to figure out what the problem is and fix it. I don't understand people who refuse to work on fixing things so that the passion returns.


I agree, but the problem is... sometims the path of least resistance just happens all by itself.

Then you look up... 5 years later... and suddenly things are 'not what they used to be' and wonder how they got to where they are now. People sometimes only learn this the hard way.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> Problem is... sometims the path of least resistance just happens...
> 
> Then you look up... 5 years later... and suddenly things are 'not what they used to be' and wonder how they got to where they are now. People sometimes only learn this the hard way.


Whats really weird is if you can litterally "feel" and with vivid detail be a child again..like video in your head..just beyond your touch smell and hearing..you are there..with the emotions..then a teanager at a concert.....umm..never mind LOL!!!


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Untrue..men (and women) can engage in sex and continue to harbor resentments outside of bed.Sex doesn't "fix it".So in the meantime you are just screwing.I have known of people going through a divorce that continue to screw..and that's the point..that's all it is..My point? If I have sex just for the sake of having sex ANYONE will do ..I'll pick by favor the look..or you fancy me for the second..If its "unreasonable " he will "forego" sex while he waits for the one he supposedly wants to have sex with to get over it? GO get "it' somewhere else"..It proves the point..its not ME you want its SEX...(with anyone)


You use the most twisted and convoluted logic I've ever seen in every discussion of sex. I can't even follow it half the time, and when I can it's so bizarre I'm just amazed.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> While I do not think that a person should have sex just out of obligation, I do believe that both spouse have an obligation to figure out what the problem is and fix it. I don't understand people who refuse to work on fixing things so that the passion returns.


It happens all the time though. I'll admit to it. From a man's point of view, we feel like we should know what to do. We don;t know what to say or what to do about it. It's shame avoidance, and at the same time we're avoiding our own shame we'll blame her, resent her. So we wait and think some day she'll just come around and it will pass.


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Is she has your son 2 hours a day after work.
> 
> You work mostly weekend night right? She works Mon-Fri? right?
> 
> Who watches you son when you are at work?


A mixture of my parents, her mother and a childminder twice a week


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## mcscoobs (Feb 10, 2013)

Firstly, just want to add, that I appreciate everyones time and effort, your responses have all been taken aboard.

Bit of an update now...

She's now said that she although she loves me, she's just not attracted to me. She's said my looks haven't changed at all, and that it's an emotional thing. Said i've changed personality wise. Said i'm often grumpy/miserable. Even though i've explained i'm only ever down because of her actions! She doesn't want me to leave either? She said she will do whatever it takes to make things better and will try to "like" me again. But also said she doesn't know how or what to do. She's waiting for me to say to her "Do this" or "Do that" and isn't really taking any time to consider any sort of plan. She often wakes up in the night, complaining she can't sleep. When I ask why, she says she's stressing about things at work. She's never once not been able to sleep due to worrying about our future... which kinda makes me a bit sad.

She just kinda want's us to get on with our lives and plod along, and hope we work out our differences that way. She can't understand why i'd be willing to throw away our marriage and break up our family, over intimacy/sex? We are planning on seeing a counsellor, but she's adamant we can resolve this without one. 

I do love my wife and want to spend the rest of my life with her, but she doesn't know how to make things better and neither do I.... 

Since my initial post, I'd chosen to sleep on the sofa. Didn't really want to share a bed with someone who wasn't "attracted" to me, plus I thought it would give her a chance to miss me. Each night she'd either text me at 3am asking to come give her a cuddle, or she'd slip onto the sofa to give me a cuddle. On valentines night, she asked if I minded sleeping in the marital bed. I agreed to it. She said we can talk more in bed too. It went fine and i've been sleeping in the bed again since.

I'm on night shifts all this week, the little one hasn't been well, so she's been complaining that she's tired. Naturally you'd assume she would want early nights if she's so tired, but no. 11.30pm every night so far this week she's gone to bed. She says she can't sleep without me there but she doesn't even try, as she admits she doesn't even get into bed until very late. Last week, when I was at home, we got into bed at 9/9.30 and she was asleep by 10pm.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> ... I would assume that you also believe that men should give their wives sex when she wants it even if he does not want to have sex?


I do. I am a firm believer of duty sex. I have responsibilities to my wife and my God to provide my wife's every needs, including sex, even if I wasn't in the mood. If it is still technically and physically possible, no reason for not making best efforts to give my wife her sexual satisfaction. It's my duty and it is written in the shibghat Nikah (marriage license).

Sex to me is something which takes time, so it's not a walk in the park. I am no longer young and erection is not automatic anymore, so I improve my foreplaying skills to arouse my wife more while waiting for erection to come, and keep a stash of KratingDaeng (original Red Bull) ready, it really helps with the stamina. And I have learned self-suggestion techniques to help me achieve erection even when not in the mood. She also helps too, she is getting better in foreplaying as well. After I am ready and achieving good erection, we could commence intercourse. She is very patient, I must thank her for that. I won't be able to have regular monthly sex if not due to her love and patience.

The result is that our lovemaking sessions tends to be lengthier in the foreplay, not as lengthy in the actual intercourse (never had a quickie lately..not possible!), and also include lots of after play, because we like to give each other massages afterwards (sex is tiring when we're no longer young. Tiring but enjoyable) 

So, no mood? no excuses lah  (in SE Asian talk  )


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## Ignis (Feb 16, 2013)

Drover said:


> As a practical matter, they will not remain together in a happy marriage unless sexual needs are being met so the LD partner (male or female) had better do what they can to meet those needs.


I don't agree with that statement. Yes, sexuality is important dimension of a marital life but I can assure you it is possible to have happy marriage also in a relationship where there is not plenty of sex. I know some of them 

Anyway, each partner has responsibility to resolve all his inner/outer issues that prevent him to have sexual life.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

She spend time on the phone with her female friend till late at night and doesnt have time for you? do you know whats the contain of their conversation? if it was me I would start a little "spying" . VAR will do it. My 2 cents
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I think the point is..If I slept with a "new man" tonight..never slept with him before and never slept with him again that ONE time would be a HUGE ordeal and hold HUGE meaning to my husband probably as if I had GIVEN my entire SOUL to another man for enternity from one good 30 minute romp.So why would only "once a month" with him(my husband) be equivelant to "nothing"?


I would not call it nothing, but it is apparently insufficient to him. Keep in mind that your responsibility to him is to meet his sexual need and his only. Sleeping with somebody else is failing to meet that responsibility. Not meeting his need is not meeting your responsibility - you can't rightfully expect him to just ignore his sexuality because you are LD.

That being said, him insisting that you be as horny as him for sex to be meaningful is inappropriate and harmful to your relationship.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

> Her attitude is that we've been together a long time(!) and that things change over time...
> 
> She's unwilling to compromise...
> 
> She wants to know why, if i'm happy with the rest of the relationship, why can't that (a sexless marriage) be enough for me?


Why should she compromise? She's winning. 

It seems to me that she has been able to convince you that your only choices are a sexless marriage (one along her rules) or divorce. The classic false dilemma fallacy. Whether she would actually let you go if you decided to divorce her or cave is anyone's guess. But, it seems she's willing to roll the dice that you will stay, and stay under her conditions.

You need to show her "two choices" are false. That a sexless marriage would be very different than she imagined.

If she feels no compulsion to step up and meet her marital obligations, you shouldn't either. *Make a list of the things you do as a good husband, and one at a time stop doing them.* Don't make a production out of, just quit doing them.

I'd start with cutting the grass (and any other exterior maintenance). When she asks, tell her: "Since you don't feel you need to fulfill marital obligations to me sexually, I don't feel don't feel I need to meet my marital obligations to maintain the yard."

And, I would add one more part to this: "If anyone--the neighbors, relatives, your friends, anyone--asks my why our grass is a foot high, I'm going to tell them the truth; I'm not cutting the grass, because my wife refuses to have sex with me." Daylight is the best disinfectant. She not like the idea of being know in the world as the woman that refuses to sleep with her husband.

Don't help with any of the traditional female chores: cooking, washing, moping--any of it. If she's not going to meet her martial obligations, you don't have any obligation to help her with her chores (and since you both work, they are her chores). And, tell her exactly that.

Put your paycheck in a separate account, and quite contributing to the family finances. Let the mortgage get behind; don't pay any credit cards; don't contribute to the utilities (let them get cut off). If you get divorced, she'll get the house and you'll probably be financially ruined anyway, so what does it really matter if it happens before the divorce? If she isn't going to meet her marital obligations, there's no reason you should meet your marital obligation as a provider. Again, tell her exactly that.

Just start working down your list of "male marital obligations" and quit doing them. Make it clear that her vision of marriage (where one partner meets their marital obligations, but the other partner doesn't) will never happen. Make her realize these are her real 3 choices:

1) living in a marriage where NEITHER partner meets their marital obligations

2) living in a marriage where BOTH partners meet their marital obligations

3) divorce 

And, you better be ready for divorce to be her answer. There's an old negotiating rule that states if you aren't will to walk away from a deal and abandon it, you will NEVER win a negotiation. She has shown she is willing to gamble your marriage on getting her way. When she calls your bluff (and I'm guessing she will) you've got to be ready to show her you weren't buffing. That you're willing to walk away from it all.



mcscoobs said:


> We used to enjoy watching porn together, her alone sometimes too, which I had no issue with.
> 
> To top it off, i've seen that she's been watching porn on her phone whilst i'm at work. Makes me feel like her libido hasn't gone, and that it's me that's the problem?(


You are not the problem. I would guess that she has a problem that is common for men. A guy in our men's Bible study had this exact problem, so I've heard the story from the other side. 

The porn is easy and covenant, as is masturbating (believe me, if someone is watching porn, they are masturbating; I'd bet my car your wife is). After a while, it becomes so easy and covenant that it makes marital sex seem difficult and a chore (which, let's face it, it can be; but that's just the way dealing with real people can be). So, they turn away from reality, and start finding satisfaction in a fantasy world--where everyone is "perfect" and nobody hassles them. 

Their spouse ends up in a sexless marriage, while they end up in a fantasy reality sex life. To them, their marriage isn't sexless. It's full of sex, just not with their spouse. 

You should have a pretty blunt talk with your wife about why she on the one hand watches porn, and on the other hand has no interest in sexual relations with you. Her sexual energy is going someplace.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Blue Firefly has given you very good advice. No more useless words to negotiate sex. You need to go into action ASAP. You said you're headed for divorce. So start acting like your planning a new life and watch what happens. Don't believe for second that being more sensitive to her needs will improve things. This is one of the biggest lies of the century. Your wife has not told you the full truth. We've seen your story before. It almost always ends up with another man or women in the picture. She's playing you big time.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Blue Firefly said:


> Why should she compromise? She's winning.
> 
> It seems to me that she has been able to convince you that your only choices are a sexless marriage (one along her rules) or divorce. The classic false dilemma fallacy. Whether she would actually let you go if you decided to divorce her or cave is anyone's guess. But, it seems she's willing to roll the dice that you will stay, and stay under her conditions.
> 
> ...


I can't agree with some of this. Not paying a mortgage and falling back on house upkeep isn't the right strategy, although it IS the right idea.

The things you cut back on are things that affect her emotional needs. For example, she may like having you take time to drive to go antiquing on weekends. She likes the time together. That's the kind of thing you stop.

But you just don't stop it. Instead, you ay "There's a car show I'm going to."

She may like cuddling. Stop it.

She may like holding hands while you walk to church. Don't hold hands.

Figure out what her emotional needs are in the marriage and stop providing them. Stop paying the mortgage makes you look like a dope.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think the OP of this thread is gone. I wonder if he made any progress. Seemed like he was not assertive enough when he communicated her needs to his wife, and like Chris said - he never really showed her what he was going through. Case in point was the cuddling and the sleeping in the same bed. The wife was able to get these acts of intimacy out of her husband - yet he never got her to understand that he needed some intimacy from her too on his terms. The right play - agreeing with Chris - would be for the OP to stop the cuddling and sleeping in the same bed. If he would have starved her the way she has been starving him - the log jam may have been broken.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

mcscoobs said:


> To top it off, i've seen that she's been watching porn on her phone whilst i'm at work. Makes me feel like her libido hasn't gone, and that it's me that's the problem?


I am going to BIG time break forum ettiquette and post before I even finish the OP, let alone the rest of this 10 page thread.

The day I finally forced out of my wife her reasons for not wanting to have sex with me my world crashed. Yours may have already. I still need to cover 5 days and 10 pages.

But I can almost guarantee it's not sex she dislikes, it's sex with YOU she dislikes. And it's not the SEX from you she doesn't like. It's you.

She doesn't love you any more.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

MrK said:


> She doesn't love you any more.


No change. Leave her and find someone that DOES love you.


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