# Discovered H's 6 YEAR co-worker EA/PA recently.. ?'s



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Okay, here's the deal... We've been married for 15 yrs w/5 kids. I had suspected for many years that 'something' wasn't right, but I didn't have any proof. Although I would confront him on many occasions regarding certain things that were amiss in our marriage, he would reassure me, blame me or whatever, and I never researched further. (Stupid, I know.) I had even gone to counseling (after marriage counseling failed a few years ago) to learn how to love & respect him while in a loveless marriage. Before the recent holidays, I checked my husband's phone and found a voicemail from a co-worker, a married woman w/ children. 

After much research & disclosure: They had been in an extensive EA/PA, daily, for at least 6+ YEARS! After I confronted him, he ended things via email with her that weekend and has been striving to be honest, transparent and save our marriage. He's been affectionate, thoughtful, engaged and well, everything he hasn't been prior. I've never seen this part of him - ever. 

If I didn't find that voicemail, they probably would've continued. One moment he is content in their fantasy adulterous affair & lying to me repeatedly... but once I find out, he decides he really does want me after all these years. Not sure what to believe. I question if he is just not wanting the divorce. 

He's doing everything he can to keep me, including MC & IC. I would love to be loved by him, if this new person is really who he is. BUT I don't even KNOW him apparently, and I don't know that I can get passed all that he has done. I do feel like I need to TRY to work through this and see what God can do in our lives before I just give up. 

Has anyone attended Family Dynamics Institute's... A New Beginning seminars??? 

I have read a lot on the internet about affairs. I have yet to find an affair recovery based on this same intensity and length of time. Anyone?? 

Also, I'm getting mixed counsel about him changing jobs due to the co-worker. Stay at the job to focus on R or move? If we move and change jobs, some say it will interfere w/ R bc of the new stresses. Yet, every morning, I wonder if she or he will start this again without my knowledge and anxiety gets the best of me.

(btw, I can't stay in this city - too many triggers with all of their lunches and nooners.) How do I choose to move with him when I'm not sure this "new person" he is showing is legit? 

Thanks, in advance...


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Okay, here's the deal... We've been married for 15 yrs w/5 kids. I had suspected for many years that 'something' wasn't right, but I didn't have any proof. Although I would confront him on many occasions regarding certain things that were amiss in our marriage, he would reassure me, blame me or whatever, and I never researched further. (Stupid, I know.) Before the recent holidays, I checked my husband's phone and found a voicemail from a co-worker, a married woman w/ children. I had suspected for many years that 'something' wasn't right, but I didn't have any proof. I had even gone to counseling (after marriage counseling failed a few years ago) to learn how to love & respect him while in a loveless marriage.
> 
> It happens(ed) to all of us. Welcome to the sh1t eating club.
> 
> ...


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Okay, here's the deal... We've been married for 15 yrs w/5 kids. I had suspected for many years that 'something' wasn't right, but I didn't have any proof. Although I would confront him on many occasions regarding certain things that were amiss in our marriage, he would reassure me, blame me or whatever, and I never researched further. (Stupid, I know.) Before the recent holidays, I checked my husband's phone and found a voicemail from a co-worker, a married woman w/ children. I had suspected for many years that 'something' wasn't right, but I didn't have any proof. I had even gone to counseling (after marriage counseling failed a few years ago) to learn how to love & respect him while in a loveless marriage.
> 
> After much research & disclosure: They had been in an extensive EA/PA, daily, for at least 6 YEARS! After I confronted him, he ended things via email with her that weekend and has been striving to be honest, transparent and save our marriage. He's been affectionate, thoughtful, engaged and well, everything he hasn't been prior. I've never seen this part of him - ever.
> 
> ...


He needs to get a new job ASAP. Has this been discussed at all?

Also, did you expose the affair to the other woman's husband?


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

You need to take a few steps back and really evaluate what it will take for you to stay with this marriage. He betrayed you and lied to you for six years. 

Do your research and figure out what steps you'll need to feel safe to trust him again. If that's him leaving that job, exposing to everyone, including OW hubby, counselling, full access to phone, computer and all passwords. Anything, whatever it is. Then you present that list to him. If he balks, then it's over. He can't bargain or be dismissive of your needs on this.


----------



## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

If there is any part of you that wants to give the marriage a chance to succeed then he MUST quit this job. Once the smoke clears and things die down he will fall into old habits very quickly. Everyday for 6 years? Zero chance of quitting her cold turkey if he still sees her at work.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Six years is along time. He's going to have some trouble letting her go. 

This and the fact you've lost six years of your life......why do you want to stay with him. 

I can't imagine you are ever going to feel truly safe again in your marriage.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A 6 year affair, IMHO, is just way too much of an inordinate amount of time for an extracurricular relationship to be going on as he's got so much emotionally invested with his AP over such a very long span of time.

It's really like he's been married to two women the entire time. Trust me: If he's been, in any way, of keeping his AP happy over all of this time, then I'd have to surmize that he has been having sex with her on a fairly regular basis. It just stands to reason. He's privately having sex and emotional fulfillment with her, but he hangs his hat at your home and lives with you! That's 40% of your married years that you've been so unwittingly sharing him! 

I have these questions:

What are the ages of your five children?

As is, have you contracted or been checked out for the presence of STD's?

Has he agreed to immediately go into MC?

Does his OW's H know about the affair?

Is he in agreement to leave his employer or even the town in which you live?

With an affair going on for such a very long period of time, don't expect him to give her up so easily! Get yourself to an MD for a medical checkup, and then into IC- individual counseling ASAP, to see if there is any hope for you in this 6 year old web of deception. If not, then you need to head straight to an attorney's office!

Sorry to see you here at TAM. But you have come to the right place for help and counsel!*


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

How have you been handling this? How did you react when you first found out?

You should definitely inform your husband's ex-lover's husband, for one it'll end any possible current or future affair activity and secondly he has the right to know, just as you do. I would forever be indebted to anyone who told me my significant other had been unfaithful, no matter how much pain I'd feel.

Six years of infidelity is extremely hard to deal with. That's six years of lies, deception, gas-lightimg making you feel like you're crazy or unreasonable and him blaming you and treating you poorly. Then there's the hurt, pain and anger of the affair itself. Trust is absolutely gone.

Have you taken some time for yourself, alone to actually confront how you feel about it all and for perspective?


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

I'm only 2 1/2 mos out, so this is all raw for me...

Yes, I called her husband the next day. He had no clue. He told me he found phone calls exchanged and a love letter over 4 yrs ago. He confronted his wife back then, she said it was just EA and it was over. (She lied on both accounts) He never informed me back then. Stupid man.

I wrote her an email when her husband contacted me to say that she was denying everything and wanted my proof, so I sent it to him. I told her, her husband and my husband about the damage and hurt they both did to my children, attacked her as a mom, told both of them to stay away from each other and allow him to restore his relationship with his kids, threatened to expose her to her family (got their names/info online), gave her some helpful hints like: keep your panties on, find a way to love her own husband, be a wife/mother of honor, seek God,...and not be so easy & convenient by providing a co-workers apartment or her own home to have sex. 

Already had him & I checked for STD's and, thankfully, we are fine. He was also banking his entire future on her taking a pill every a.m. - and, thankfully, she never got pregnant. ugh. Idiot.

We have two young adult children, teen twins and a 7yr old. Yes, they all know bc my youngest came in the house when he was to be outside the day I found out. He heard the word 'affair' and asked his older brothers what it means. My 20 yr old was there to intercede, but this is just devastating all around.

Yes, he set up MC immediately. We go weekly. He seems to have done a 180 - changed his work phone to a personal phone so the records come to the house, allowed me to put a GPS app on his phone, has had no contact other than work-related with OW (he copies me on the emails), put together his resume and is willing to quit his well-paying job and move, contacts me throughout the day (sending pics of his computer screen to show a time stamp and where he is, etc), has been reading assigned books, we have been re-painting, de-cluttering and getting the house "ready to sell" for some future date... Like I said, he seems to really be trying.

Quitting job: We need the healthcare and one shouldn't quit a job until they have another one, right? That is a slow process. ugh. He has sent out his resume, but hasn't flooded the market with it. I'm sure he is also afraid that I won't be able to get passed the 6 years and also due to the conflicting info we received. So, yes, he is willing to find another job and move. 

I'm the one taking the risk, uprooting the younger children, having to leave all my friends & support, leaving my older children who are establishing themselves. ugh.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The way he all of a sudden wanted to save everything the second you found out suggests he wasn't really that concerned about you leaving. He knew he could beg and get back in. 

Doesn't mean you necessarily have to go, that's up to you, just my observation about his behavior. He had no problem with it until you found out which is much different then someone who realized they were scummy, broke it off and came clean. That's a character flaw on this part and one that will remain.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Thank you for asking. Sorry for the length, brevity is not my strong suit right now...  I went into IC immediately. My anxiety is pretty bad. Had a panic attack that left me on the floor of my living room with my lips blue. My boys had to call 911. I am a public speaker and am currently unable to speak in front of a crowd now. I'm getting stronger every day, though. I think I've been in shock. I don't know how to stop the constant flooding of thoughts of this that hit me all the time.

I have researched and kept records of their emails, groupons, credit card statements, etc. They had sex at least weekly if not more. They walked around his work area together, went shopping together and he took work off to spend time with her. They never dealt with their own children, handled the stresses & busy-ness of life together. It was a fantasy world of who they wanted to present to each other. They lied about who they really are as well as their home life. 

The hardest thing for me is the cruelness of the length of time. I asked him why he didn't just "cut me loose" so I could've made my own choices. I could function as a woman/mom from a healthy place and maybe find someone else who would want us... He doesn't have an answer. 

He says he was selfish & never intended to divorce me (how noble to keep her on the side). He knew that I was always trying to find the good in our marriage & that I was trying. He knew I was solid in my beliefs and has always loved how I am as a mom. He felt guilty and knew he was hurting me. He was distant from me and yet, he would give me enough over the years to show he loved me and wanted this marriage. I just thought he was someone who wasn't as affectionate or engaged as I wanted. I wouldn't divorce someone just because he isn't exactly what I want. That's why I stayed. I just didn't know the truth. He said that he was planning to end it with her- it became a routine w her & he knew it wasn't real or going anywhere. 

That's why this is messing with my head. Now, I'm beautiful to him. Now he "sees" me and wants to really talk to me. He can't get enough of me. (I'm a highly sexual person, so that was always my biggest complaint with him.) He thanks me every night for giving him another day... It's a bit overwhelming. 

Taking time for myself? I'm really not in a position to think clearly yet. I'm still just trying to function well. What I do know is that I'm NOT afraid of him going back to her. If that's the character of woman he wants, he needs to go. I deserve better; my kids deserve better. We have more than enough money that I would be just fine if we divorced. I don't "need" him. I have to determine if I "want" him. I just don't want to be made a fool of again... That is my biggest fear.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Rugs said:


> Six years is along time. He's going to have some trouble letting her go.
> 
> This and the fact you've lost six years of your life......why do you want to stay with him.
> 
> I can't imagine you are ever going to feel truly safe again in your marriage.


He says it is over with her. He seems to be able to compartmentalize like no one's business, according to our MC. She figures that's why he could live these two worlds for so long. I do question if this is just a "laying low" period for both or one of them. Her husband told me they are working on their marriage, but I don't trust her either.

Why do I want to stay with him? I feel I owe to myself, us and our children to try to R this. Right now, his 23 yr old daughter and his sons don't respect him. If we can have an affair recovery, it would be a huge testimony to what God can do in a marriage... Honestly, I don't know him, and he doesn't know me. Who I thought I loved didn't exist. So, it's a decision to try to find out who we are now. 

No, I will never trust him completely. I don't think I will ever trust another person like I had with him again. 

I told him it's like he strapped a massive boulder to me that I have to drag behind me. Over time, it may erode and pieces break off, but I will forever have to painfully drag this with me. It is a reminder of what he chose to do. It's a life sentence for me, regardless of whether I stay with him or not.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

kc2 said:


> *If I didn't find that voice mail, they probably would've continued. One moment he is content in their fantasy adulterous affair & lying to me repeatedly... but once I find out, he decides he really does want me after all these years. Not sure what to believe. I question if he is just not wanting the divorce.
> *


kc,

Experienced that same reaction with my FWW when I caught her... Years of LT serial EAPA. 15 minutes prior to DD she is texting and emailing her AP professing her love for him and their future together. 

Caught... She only wants me, begs for mercy, river of tears, will do anything to save our marriage. 

_"Somethings in this World you just can't explain...", C.D. 
_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Reconcile or divorce it does get somewhat better over time.

He cheated on you because he could, because you loved and trusted him, so he knew he could play you like a fish on a line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

OP, your story sounds a lot like my parent's story. Do you think the OW threatened your husband with exposure if he stopped seeing her? She could've led him to believe that even though she would've put her own marriage in jeopardy. Maybe he was relieved it was out and that's why he's re-committed to the marriage. Also, I think affairs can also be like an addiction to a drug and can be very hard to stop. Once they are stopped it's like a huge monkey off your back.

My dad had a 3 year affair and while I don't know all the details, I'm pretty sure the OW was pressuring him a lot to leave my mom and also threatening to expose. He was leading this double life, trying to keep this woman happy. He was probably very stressed. She finally did expose by showing up on my parent's doorstep and telling my mom about the affair.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't have to be something nefarious that the WS wants to save the marriage. My Dad was so relieved it was over, he dropped the OW like a hot potato and re-committed to the marriage. (My mom was devastated. I'll never forget that phone call when she told me about it.) My mom did take my dad back, they went to MC and have been married now for 50+ years.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think this is too long and too much damage to really recover from.

He has had two wives for AT LEAST six years. And you, it seems, were not the favored wife.

I don't think he can just cross her from his life like this. I bet that this has either gone underground or they will 'find' each other again soon.

There's a thread here at the moment on forgiveness and your thread has made me think of that. It's not that I couldn't forgive something like this. It's that it is too long and too deep a betrayal to even warrant an effort of forgiveness.

I would just sue for divorce if I were you. He has already decided enough of your life for you. He has no right to do that.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Look up the new treatments for PTSD. Find a counselor that can treat PTSD and infidelity. Ex military guys that have come through here say the trauma of infidelity is as bad as battlefield stress.

I hope you take care of yourself and cut your husband zero slack. I also think he is glad its over. Most affairs last less than three years. Less than three percent make it very long term. It three to five years to get over an affair and things will never be like they were pre affair. If you can't do it, don't feel bad, two thirds of couples divorce when one partner cheats.

The most important thing to remember is he doesn't deserve you. Staying with him is a gift he didn't earn.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Over six years?

Bloody hell. I have known marriages that never made that long.

If there are children in the frame DNA tests to stop fake paternity claims might be helpful.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*kc2: Just a couple of follow-up questions:
From all that you've heard, what has since transpired with the OW, her H, and their family over this issue?
 When they were engaged in sexual activity together, was it in your house, their house, at work, in a hotel, or where?
*


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

By take time for yourself I meant not rushing into anything and having him in your space regularly.

Two and a half months out is nowhere near enough time for you to be even remotely alright. You're most likely still in shock or wearing off of it. You'll be raw with consuming and debilitating emotions and sufffering symptoms akin to PTSD.

Now is not the time to worry and think if you even still want this marriage. These thoughts will only aim to make you anxious and neurotic. You should be focused on your health and well-being.

You need 'distance' from your husband. He has hurt you like so f****** bad and him being continously present in your life right now or in constant contact isn't good for you. So however you're able to get space from him, whether it's with him moving out or you, then do it and for however long you need to.

You have done a stellar job of handling this, I'm actually impressed.

You have to focus and take care of yourself most importantly. Infidelity can wreak havoc to your physical and emotional well-being so make your needs a priority. Make sure that you eat healthy everyday and (try to) sleep a good number of hours each night. Take up exercise or join a gym to help work off excess unresolved emotions and to occupy your mind.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> OP, your story sounds a lot like my parent's story. Do you think the OW threatened your husband with exposure if he stopped seeing her? She could've led him to believe that even though she would've put her own marriage in jeopardy. Maybe he was relieved it was out and that's why he's re-committed to the marriage. Also, I think affairs can also be like an addiction to a drug and can be very hard to stop. Once they are stopped it's like a huge monkey off your back.


I asked him about being threatened by her. He wasn't. She did ask him once if he was ever going to divorce me. He told her he wouldn't. I guess she was content with being an adulterous mom of two. <shrugs>

He did say that he was relieved when I found out. He said that it was very stressful and that it felt like a weight was lifted off of him. He also said that he wanted to end it, but was struggling with doing so. He said that he realized it was going nowhere and had no real purpose. 

I'm glad about your parent's successful affair recovery... It's always nice to hear a happy ending, regardless. Neither path is easy - reconciliation or divorce.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *kc2: Just a couple of follow-up questions:
> From all that you've heard, what has since transpired with the OW, her H, and their family over this issue?
> When they were engaged in sexual activity together, was it in your house, their house, at work, in a hotel, or where?
> *


I have no idea what is going on in her home, and he hasn't had any contact with her. She has avoided walking by his office or directly contacting him, unless absolutely needed for work. I think I scared her because she knows I have every right to humiliate her to her family. I, unlike her, do have restraint when it comes to knowingly hurting someone else and her children. 

I found out Thanksgiving Day. The last correspondence was her husband sending me an email stating they were going to work on their marriage the Tuesday after. I sincerely doubt she told him the entire truth. (She didn't the first time they were caught over 4 yrs ago, and she adamantly denied it that entire weekend until I sent him the proof.) 

Sexual activity: It started around 2010 from what I could find with the EA before that, obviously. She had a key to a co-worker's apartment about 5-10minutes from work. They used that as well as her home (about 15 min from work). 

I'm a pretty good researcher, when I know what to be looking for. I could've worked for the FBI.  I triangulated the days of emails I have with my texts to him and where our credit card or groupons were used. I can almost tell you what days they had sex vs just eating lunch. I have so much evidence it's mind boggling - and a LOT of history to get past. 

What I do know is that although he may have said he loved her, he didn't really want her in her life permanently. He has NEVER had respect for women who cheats and certainly not for a mom who cheats. Ironic, isn't it?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kc2 said:


> I have no idea what is going on in her home, and he hasn't had any contact with her. She has avoided walking by his office or directly contacting him, unless absolutely needed for work. I think I scared her because she knows I have every right to humiliate her to her family. I, unlike her, do have restraint when it comes to knowingly hurting someone else and her children.
> 
> I found out Thanksgiving Day. The last correspondence was her husband sending me an email stating they were going to work on their marriage the Tuesday after. I sincerely doubt she told him the entire truth. (She didn't the first time they were caught over 4 yrs ago, and she adamantly denied it that entire weekend until I sent him the proof.)
> 
> ...


Very ironic. 

Was this his first affair?


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> By take time for yourself I meant not rushing into anything and having him in your space regularly.
> 
> Two and a half months out is nowhere near enough time for you to be even remotely alright. You're most likely still in shock or wearing off of it. You'll be raw with consuming and debilitating emotions and sufffering symptoms akin to PTSD.
> 
> ...


I appreciate what you said. I had even said to the counselor that I felt like he hasn't had to 'suffer.' He went straight from having her and/or me to fill his needs to having me. He hasn't had to do 'without' most of his comforts. (i.e. He still comes home to dinner being made, etc.) Our pastor suggested he stay in this household to see what he has done to us, and for him to start the process of restoring by serving us and providing what he hasn't in the past. 

Yes, the counselor mentioned PTSD. No, I don't always do such a great job. I struggle w fighting these thoughts of them, triggers and, well, I've said the F word more in the last 2 1/2 mos than I ever have in my 45 yrs of living. hehe I'm normally a positive, happy, outgoing person, so this angry me is very frustrating for me. I think I managed to do a crash course in researching about affairs, affair recovery...and finding my legs again. Reading so many of the posts on here has been SO helpful. There's a lot of wisdom here.

Wise advice regarding exercise: Actually, I switched to lifting weights about a year ago. I don't mean that I go to the gym, walk on a treadmill with makeup on and pretend to lift iron.  I do cleans, power jerks, weighted squats, snatches, dead lifts, etc. I took two wks off from the gym when I found out, since I wasn't eating or sleeping. But then I realized I needed that endorphin release, so that forced me to eat something in order to lift. At the end, I always do the rope. That's my greatest release and makes me feel empowered. My goal is to go to a weight lifting competition with my 13 yr old son sometime.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Very ironic.
> 
> Was this his first affair?


 Yes. He is very adamant about that. I researched his work email and couldn't find another history with someone else either.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> I appreciate what you said. I had even said to the counselor that I felt like he hasn't had to 'suffer.' He went straight from having her and/or me to fill his needs to having me. He hasn't had to do 'without' most of his comforts. (i.e. He still comes home to dinner being made, etc.) Our pastor suggested he stay in this household to see what he has done to us, and for him to start the process of restoring by serving us and providing what he hasn't in the past.
> 
> Yes, the counselor mentioned PTSD. No, I don't always do such a great job. I struggle w fighting these thoughts of them, triggers and, well, I've said the F word more in the last 2 1/2 mos than I ever have in my 45 yrs of living. hehe I'm normally a positive, happy, outgoing person, so this angry me is very frustrating for me. I think I managed to do a crash course in researching about affairs, affair recovery...and finding my legs again. Reading so many of the posts on here has been SO helpful. There's a lot of wisdom here.
> 
> Wise advice regarding exercise: Actually, I switched to lifting weights about a year ago. I don't mean that I go to the gym, walk on a treadmill with makeup on and pretend to lift iron.  I do cleans, power jerks, weighted squats, snatches, dead lifts, etc. I took two wks off from the gym when I found out, since I wasn't eating or sleeping. But then I realized I needed that endorphin release, so that forced me to eat something in order to lift. At the end, I always do the rope. That's my greatest release and makes me feel empowered. My goal is to go to a weight lifting competition with my 13 yr old son sometime.


No offense to your pastor but I doubt that he is personally familiar with infidelity. His advice and that of many counsellors tends to be geared towards preserving the marriage without much regard and consideration for what the hurt spouse is going through.

I agree that your husband has had a light time of it. Although having him leave might serve as a form of consequence/punishment, I suggested it solely for your benefit, to allow you space to 'breathe'. In any sistuaion where a substance is causing harm to someone the immediate remedy is to remove oneself or said substance from their vicinity.

Like I wrote earlier, I'm impressed with how well you'e handled yourself but remember it's okay to not be okay every so often. I'm glad that you're keeping active and actually have goals in that vain.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Kc2, 

My husband cheated on me for eight years that I know of. Like Alte Dame and you stated. HE made all the decisions during that time about YOUR life. It's theft of the worst kind. I don't know how anyone forgives that kind of betrayal. I could not. 

It's a good thing you are in IC. 

I divorced my husband and I don't miss him one bit but I still get so angry sometimes that he stole those years from me without my consent. 

Best if luck. Your story is a tough one. I don't like your husband or people like your husband - What kind of person could do this and then change completely to a trustworthy person?


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> No offense to your pastor but I doubt that he is personally familiar with infidelity. His advice and that of many counsellors tends to be geared towards preserving the marriage without much regard and consideration for what the hurt spouse is going through.
> 
> I agree that your husband has had a light time of it. Although having him leave might serve as a form of consequence/punishment, I suggested it solely for your benefit, to allow you space to 'breathe'. In any situation where a substance is causing harm to someone the immediate remedy is to remove oneself or said substance from their vicinity....


Well, I agree w you on the pastor part. There were a few reasons why we opted not to do counseling with the pastor:

1. Stated that divorce is an option IF there is unrepented adultery. (?!?!) I know that God placed divorce as an option for sexual sin because He knows the devastation and damage it causes long after forgiveness. In my H's case, this was not a one night affair in which he felt guilty the next day and confessed. This was a LONG time... a lot to process on my end. 

2. The pastor felt that if he is truly committed to God, then he would put up the boundaries at work that are needed and not be tempted, so he shouldn't have to leave his job. (?!?!) Seriously? I said to him, "So if you have an alcoholic and he gives his life over to God, do you encourage him to continue working at a bar?" AND, let's not forget that an adulterous woman is on the other end of this who has her own abilities to entice & seek him out. UGH! REALLY upset me because other co-workers know about his relationship with her or suspected it. I am the office joke.

3. The pastor wanted us to end all counseling with our marriage counselors and IC. He wanted to handle this based on the Bible, not feelings and emotions, and no other interference. That's good for some situations, except that with this, the emotions and feelings are VITAL in my recovery - according to every single website, book and article I have read. 

The Affair Care website has an amazing article called "Understanding Your Loyal Spouse" which helped me understand why I am feeling like I'm totally nuts these days. The pastor said that it doesn't matter. To yell or get angry (or hit, as I have sometimes punched him in the arm) is not responding 'correctly." um, well... try living with the fact that the spouse you loved, prayed for over at night, supported and consistently forgave for being distant was actually lying to you, being cruel at times, and giving his attention, affection, & time to someone else DAILY - then throw in that he was screwing her. Yep, sorry if I'm not responding "correctly." 

I do appreciate what you said about having 'breathing' room. You are absolutely right. I haven't had that - AT ALL. I never really thought about it before you said that. Thank you.

I have lived my life like my presentations (I mentioned I'm a public speaker. Well, I'm actually a motivational speaker). In one, I tell women that they can either be a bee or a buzzard in their marriages. They can be like a buzzard and look for the negative, ugly, dying things OR they can be like a bee looking for the positive, happy, beautiful things. I tell them to "Be a bee!" I even had a picture of a bee in my house to remind me. BLECH! Makes me sick. I will have to re-think that part of my presentation now.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Well, I agree w you on the pastor part. There were a few reasons why we opted not to do counseling with the pastor:
> 
> 1. Stated that divorce is an option IF there is unrepented adultery. (?!?!) I know that God placed divorce as an option for sexual sin because He knows the devastation and damage it causes long after forgiveness. In my H's case, this was not a one night affair in which he felt guilty the next day and confessed. This was a LONG time... a lot to process on my end.
> 
> ...


Ugh. I'd recommend a new church, but, unfortunately, it would seem that a great many (Hell, probably *most*) pastors are just as ill-equipped to effectively deal w/ adultery.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> The pastor said that it doesn't matter. To yell or get angry (or hit, as I have sometimes punched him in the arm) is not responding 'correctly."


This was absolutely hilarious, not responding "correctly".

I do hope that you know that you shouldn't question the way that you feel. There is no right way to be affected by infidelity. Rage, depression, sadness, anxiety, "feeling nuts", loss of appetite, jealousy, sadness, heck even indifference or happiness. Adultery encompasses all emotions.

You have every right to feel the way that you do, let not one tell you otherwise.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Rugs said:


> Kc2,
> 
> My husband cheated on me for eight years that I know of. Like Alte Dame and you stated. HE made all the decisions during that time about YOUR life. It's theft of the worst kind. I don't know how anyone forgives that kind of betrayal. I could not.
> 
> ...


"It's theft of the worst kind." YES! That's how I feel - that he stole part of my life. Thank you for verbalizing that! I'm sorry about what happened with your ex. I fully understand why this type of betrayal ends in divorce. I fully understand. I wish I didn't.

"...change completely to a trustworthy person?" I don't know. I don't like my husband much either right now, btw. Truthworthy? ugh. I'd like to think that my God can change people - but He sees their hearts. I can only go by past and present actions. Right now, my H's present actions are only 2 1/2 mos. of being truly kind, thoughtful, & loving. He's only about 1 mos of being honest as the truth trickled in about the length and extent of the affair as I found stuff that he "forgot." (Seriously? How do you forget that you were planning to take your AP on a business trip? or that she was in MY house and on MY bed?) oh, the pain is immense.

I want to throw him out today. I'm spiraling and angry today.  I feel like he should go to her and quit trying to change who he is for me. It all feels fake anyhow. She is staying away from him because I threatened her. Maybe I should just let the two of them go and see what they do? I wanted to secretly email my H from a new acct, pretend to be her and see how he reacted to it. I don't play games, though. I'm really not into all of this. It's not what I signed up for when I said, "I do." Just so stinkin' frustrating to have "her" and "them" in my head all the time. 

I am a homeschooling mom, & motivational speaker. I had to give up another speaking engagement for later this month as well as a huge one for April in front of hundreds of people. My panic attacks since the reveal won't let me get in front of a crowd. I feel like he's 'stolen' even more from me... so back to your original quote: "It's theft of the worst kind." I don't even know who I am on certain days. Other days, I kick butt, but today isn't one of them. Going to the gym to lift - I hope that helps.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> He's only about 1 mos of being honest as the truth trickled in about the length and extent of the affair as I found stuff that he "forgot." (Seriously? How do you forget that you were planning to take your AP on a business trip? or that she was in MY house and on MY bed?)


He hasn't forgotten. It's just plain ol' simple lying. He'll say he either can't remember, is confused, not sure about what happened or whatever and then say he didn't tell you because he didn't want to hurt you more, what good does it do for you to know and all manner of nonsense. Lies lies and selfish lies is all that it is.




kc2 said:


> I had to give up another speaking engagement for later this month as well as a huge one for April in front of hundreds of people


Wouldn't it help you to incorporate what you're going through in your speeches? I mean obvioulsy you don't have to be specific but share and incorporate what you're going through and use it, sort of how comedians use their life experiences in their routines. No one's life is perfect and it may endear you to your crowd and help with the panic attacks.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

KC2,

Comparing your situation to others -- yours is unique in a few ways. Obviously, the length of the affair. After so much time, I'd think your husband is probably having withdrawal troubles from the OW. (good pun there) For instance, had he ended the affair, and you found out later, remorse and humility on his end may have come more easily. 

In you situation, he's like a recovering addict at the moment, not that I feel any sympathy for him. It just might explain why things seem "fake". He's trying to act a part right now.

Since you haven't mentioned it, have you not gone thru the "hysterical bonding" phase most couples do? If you miss that phase, you may be spared looking back and feeling it was all fake, too.

So, we know you've felt the shock, denial, despair emotions. Now you may be settling into that great phase of unbelievable anger. Oh boy. I've been there for about a year now. In my situation, releasing some of that anger has helped, but also been very close to too intense. My wife definitely realized what she's done, and how it makes me feel, at least.

To boil it down, I think its at least possible that you'll be amazed at the anger that you feel, so be prepared.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

kc2 said:


> I told him it's like he strapped a massive boulder to me that I have to drag behind me. Over time, it may erode and pieces break off, but I will forever have to painfully drag this with me. It is a reminder of what he chose to do. It's a life sentence for me, regardless of whether I stay with him or not.


That's not true don't let HIS bullsh!t define YOU. You remove the boulder anytime you want by cutting the strap and filing for divorce. If you choose to lug it around and reconcile then you have to decide whether HE'S worth the burden. He needs to own his crap not you. You were played for a fool for a VERY long time. He has no respect for you at all. That's a really tough pill to swallow.

Honestly, it's up to you but my two cents... Six years is TOO DAMN LONG. To boot he only stopped AFTER you caught him? How much longer would this have gone on??? He is an incredibly selfish cake eater. He loves himself much more than you, there is absolutely no disputing that. You're nothing more than plan B and a security blanket. A live in mom while he's off banging his girlfriend.

The remorse is an act, he's just sorry he got caught. You sound like a very smart woman, I think deep down you know that. He was probably tiring of the other woman after six years anyway. It's like pigging out all day at a buffet, now the restaurant is closing and his mentality is, "Well, I've had my fill anyway so sure I'll go home with you now." Right now the only loser in this situation is you. He got HIS so he's happy. You just gave him an excuse to bail on the relationship cause he's a coward.

One last thing. Please don't stay for the kids. I promise you they will be okay. Do it for you, IF you still truely love him. I personally think you deserve better and trust me, you can do MUCH better. Change is scary and you probably can't see it now but you'll be much stronger for it. Good luck.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Wow, a six year LTA. That's six years that your marriage has been a lie. You've been given some great advice, follow it. And no, people don't just suddenly go cold turkey after a LTA as long as that. 

If you stay, there's going to be some fishing, either he will attempt to re-establish contact, or she will, and it will go deeper underground.

The longest LTA that I've seen here was a 17 year LTA, with the WW giving birth to their 15 year old daughter of the OM, and that was her third affair in 23 years of marriage.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Forest said:


> KC2,
> 
> ...In you situation, he's like a recovering addict at the moment, not that I feel any sympathy for him. It just might explain why things seem "fake". He's trying to act a part right now.
> 
> ...


"He's trying to act a part right now." I have ?'d that he might be lying to me and may actually be missing her. (strangely enough, I would understand that concept) He keeps insisting that he is over her and wouldn't pursue her if we were to divorce. He says he sees that it was a fantasy and not real. I'm baffled by his ability to just 'drop' her. Why risk everything for someone he never intended to keep? I'm a loyal person. My brain doesn't comprehend that. 

"hysterical bonding" So glad this is anonymous for this next comment.  Okay, I never associated or understood that term in regard to my h & i. I thought that he was desiring to be near me and talk to me. I thought our having sex around 20 times in 4 wks was him truly wanting me now. I warned him that I didn't want him being someone he's not. I don't want to expect to be getting sex that often and have it change on me. He said that he is wanting to give me what I have always asked for and what he has deprived me. So I thought this is him trying. um, great, there's even a name for it. <sighs> So that is just a normal part of this process and nothing special? Is that HB typically 'fake' or is there any truth in it? You didn't clarify. 

He booked a Hawaiian vacation for March during this HB time as well for just the two of us. He wants to get me away from life here to help rebuild our marriage. 

"anger" yeah, thanks for the warning... these last few days have been bad. I do not like that part of me, but at least I feel something. If I become apathetic, then I know it's over.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> ...Wouldn't it help you to incorporate what you're going through in your speeches? I mean obvioulsy you don't have to be specific but share and incorporate what you're going through and use it, sort of how comedians use their life experiences in their routines. No one's life is perfect and it may endear you to your crowd and help with the panic attacks.


I love your advice and funny that you should say that. I have an outline for a book that I'm writing... and this whole affair, should fit into that well- no matter what the ending, and into my presentations, eventually. Typically, I talk about parenting, educational choices, and being a Christian wife/mom, so I use my life as a resource quite often. I've had 5 kids, so believe me, there's always been good material with them. hehe

I have likened this whole trauma of the affair as having 28 fires in front of me. I have to decide which are the most important to put out first. For awhile, it was just for me to keep breathing. I have 3 boys who still need their mom, regardless of how I feel, so they are a priority. I will speak again. I will find my humor again. I will find my love of serving & helping others again. There's just other fires to tackle first. 

So yes, in some sick way, I DO think this is going to be beneficial to me in the long run. 

I know that I'm still growing as a person in all of this mess. After all, some of the most resilient, strongest and colorful flowers are grown out of the foulest manure.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> ...You remove the boulder anytime you want by cutting the strap and filing for divorce...
> 
> Honestly, it's up to you but my two cents... Six years is TOO DAMN LONG. To boot he only stopped AFTER you caught him? How much longer would this have gone on???...
> 
> One last thing. Please don't stay for the kids. I promise you they will be okay. Do it for you, IF you still truely love him. I personally think you deserve better and trust me, you can do MUCH better. Change is scary and you probably can't see it now but you'll be much stronger for it. Good luck.


"removing the boulder" - MC and IC both said that with type of intensity and length of time of his affair that I will, most likely, battle trust issues forever. They said either road is hard - divorce or reconciliation - but that I will have to deal with all these feelings and issues regardless. Sounds like a life sentence to me.

"AFTER you caught him". <sighs>Yeah, I know. I wrestle with that, how long it would've continued and the length of time the most. I don't know what to say. 

When I get upset with him, I immediately go to "BUT you looked at HER character as an adulterous mom, who didn't care about your children or her own kids and how this could affect them, and decided THIS is the woman I value and want in my life. Not me. Not the faithful, Christian mom who was raising your children and doing the hard stuff. AND you made that decision EVERY DAY for at least 6 yrs - even when I repeatedly questioned if you were cheating during all these years, you saw me hurting, but you'd get angry and yell at me for being "paranoid." You felt that she was a better choice than me. You didn't want me! But, then you got caught and now you suddenly want me?!?!" yep, logically, it doesn't even make sense.

I also question whether this has to do with our money and him not wanting the divorce attached to his name. We don't have debt, lots of savings, and well, I'm not an expensive wife. So yeah, it could be about the money, but he says it's not. 

Thank you for the last paragraph. I have re-read that at least 5 times already as well as copying it to my phone.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

lordmayhem said:


> Wow, a six year LTA. That's six years that your marriage has been a lie. You've been given some great advice, follow it. And no, people don't just suddenly go cold turkey after a LTA as long as that.
> 
> If you stay, there's going to be some fishing, either he will attempt to re-establish contact, or she will, and it will go deeper underground.
> 
> The longest LTA that I've seen here was a 17 year LTA, with the WW giving birth to their 15 year old daughter of the OM, and that was her third affair in 23 years of marriage.


Thank you, first of all, for your tag lines to read the other threads you listed. Not only has my world been shattered since Thanksgiving Day, but I've had to learn a whole new language & understanding of well, everything. 

I sure as heck wish I found this website when I started REALLY questioning back in 2009/2010. I would've handled all of this SO differently. I would've learned HOW to question & research things. And now, you guys are the ONLY ones giving me advice who have actually experienced this - our pastor, MC and IC haven't. 

I understand now what 'fishing' means... Yes, I would expect that she wouldn't have done this for all this time just to have it end abruptly. She will EXPECT some sort of validation from him. He keeps saying he is over her. I don't trust her. I don't trust either of them still working together. 

Yes, I have received a lot of advice. I have read and re-read much of this as I try to process everything. My H despises that I am on here. Believes most of the people here are bitter and/or looking for new relationships. He thinks I get more upset reading posts or responses on here. (I may, but it is actually helping me to be able to relate.) 

All of this is so darn overwhelming--and yet, every day seems a little tiny bit clearer for me despite my triggering, emotional roller coaster and anxiety. ya know... just those little things.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> Wow, a six year LTA. That's six years that your marriage has been a lie. You've been given some great advice, follow it. And no, people don't just suddenly go cold turkey after a LTA as long as that.
> 
> If you stay, there's going to be some fishing, either he will attempt to re-establish contact, or she will, and it will go deeper underground.
> 
> *The longest LTA that I've seen here was a 17 year LTA, with the WW giving birth to their 15 year old daughter of the OM, and that was her third affair in 23 years of marriage.*


Damn.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Thank you, first of all, for your tag lines to read the other threads you listed. Not only has my world been shattered since Thanksgiving Day, but I've had to learn a whole new language & understanding of well, everything.
> 
> I sure as heck wish I found this website when I started REALLY questioning back in 2009/2010. I would've handled all of this SO differently. I would've learned HOW to question & research things. And now, you guys are the ONLY ones giving me advice who have actually experienced this - our pastor, MC and IC haven't.
> 
> ...


In you in any sort of regular contact w/ OWH? If not, you might want to think about it, as he can be a powerful ally in terms of helping to ensure that your husband and OW are no longer in contact w/ one another.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> In you in any sort of regular contact w/ OWH? If not, you might want to think about it, as he can be a powerful ally in terms of helping to ensure that your husband and OW are no longer in contact w/ one another.


Wow... good thought! The last time we had contact w him was the Tues after this past Thanksgiving: "_______ and I have read your email's and texts together. We talked tonight about the entire affair and what all went on. We are working together to repair our marriage. Goodbye and I will pray for your marriage as I hope you will pray for ours." 

I didn't get the impression that he wanted me to ever contact him again. Granted, I threatened to humiliate his wife to her extended family if she ever contacted or responded to my children's dad again. So maybe that's why.  

In the past, she told him it was only an EA & it was over, and he seemed to think that my H was always the pursuer. I doubt she really told him the truth about the intensity of this affair. I feel bad for him. She is quite the adulteress - conniving and manipulating. He was surprised to find out that she bought him gifts. 

So... Of course, I felt obligated to inform him that they had sex the Mon. before Thanksgiving in his own bed and had been having sex for months at his house...and prior at a co-worker's apt to which she had a key. Obviously, he didn't know how to respond since his wife was providing the places for sex. She was so gosh darn convenient. What a great mom. Anyhow...

I don't really know how that would be received or what to say to him to be honest.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

kc2 said:


> Wow... good thought! The last time we had contact w him was the Tues after this past Thanksgiving: "_______ and I have read your email's and texts together. We talked tonight about the entire affair and what all went on. We are working together to repair our marriage. Goodbye and I will pray for your marriage as I hope you will pray for ours."
> 
> I didn't get the impression that he wanted me to ever contact him again. Granted, I threatened to humiliate his wife to her extended family if she ever contacted or responded to my children's dad again. So maybe that's why.
> 
> ...


It seems that the OWH is in denial (typical) and wants to rugsweep (again typical). That's his loss, because if he does, she will do it to him again. Sometims the other betrayed spouse wants to cooperate, sometimes they want to rugsweep. Oh well. 

But it would have been nice to have his cooperation, as it would mean having another pair of eyes on the OW. As with many who rugsweep an affair, the OWH is probably not even monitoring her. The smart thing for him would be to coordinate with you on keeping an eye on both of them and ensuring that NC is never broken.

BTW, I think your WH is not showing true remorse, since he wants you away from this site. Do you really think that he has in any way earned the precious precious gift of R? Personally, I think you should D mainly because of the length of this affair. I cannot conceive how R can happen when the last six years were a lie. But in the meantime, DO NOT commit to R. Give it time. He has to know that you are not decided and he has to earn a chance, and even then, you still have the option to choose R or D.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

kc2 said:


> My H despises that I am on here. Believes most of the people here are bitter and/or looking for new relationships. He thinks I get more upset reading posts or responses on here. (I may, but it is actually helping me to be able to relate.)


First of all, your WH has no right whatsoever to be upset that you come to this site, none at all. No ground to stand on considering what he's done.

Second, you know who calls people bitter? Cheaters and naive people who've never experienced the agony of being betrayed. yes, there are indeed some angry people here. And what caused these people to be angry? Being betrayed, that's what. That's a completely normal reaction. The emotional trauma from betrayal is equivalent to the emotional trauma of from the death of a loved one. It takes on average, 2-5 years to recover from. 

I and many veterans of TAM like me, are in R, so we do not have any emotional investment in your situation. R is sooooo very difficult at best, and R is not for everyone. But it only begins if the WS is truly remorseful and is doing the heavy lifting. 

The fact that your WH is upset about TAM shows that he has no true remorse about what he's done. Because if he was, he would be moving heaven and earth to save his marriage, and that means not criticize you going to a support forum.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes, your husband is angry now because he was caught. The party is over for him right now and he has to try to make HIS world happy again. 

He wants to do no hard work in repairing your marriage because he is still angry his toy was taken away. 

If you take him back, I don't think he will respect you. If a person will accept a six year affair, they will accept anything. I think your husband will eventually exit your marriage one way or another eventually. 

Even if you want to stay with your husband, get some legal advice for the future. I feel another blow to your life may happen again so I think you should be as prepared as you possibly can. 

This site is helpful so of course your husband doesn't want you to be here. He was happy when you were in the dark, raising his kids and taking care of him while he was running around. You in the dark is a cheaters best friend. Tell your husband to stuff it. He had his fun for six years (as all you know), it's your time know to take back some of your life and dignity.

If you have five kids, there is barely time to run to the bathroom. There is so much to juggle every single day and your husband let you struggle with the whole household while he had a mistress. Screw what he wants, this is about you right now.

Mad, bitter, um, yes, you could say that.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why don't you throw him out? Then you can clear your head without him hovering. He's suffered zero consequences and I'd bet it's onlmatter of time until he's back in contact with her. You can always try to rebuild later and if he cares one iota about you he'll go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm not usually one to suggest being apart if the intention is to try and rebuild the marriage, but 6 years is a long time to live a double life and fool you. I think you should take whatever means are necessary to have a peaceful, stress & anxiety free environment (free of him) to get your sanity back, then see how you feel about letting him back in. Keep contact at a minimum and only regarding kids. Work out, de-stress, get your public speaking voice back.

When you're stuck in a sea of chaos bogging you down, you can't make good decisions, you'll just make hasty, sloppy ones, hoping that they'll bring things back to some semblance of normalcy.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kc2 said:


> When I get upset with him, I immediately go to "BUT you looked at HER character as an adulterous mom, who didn't care about your children or her own kids and how this could affect them, and decided THIS is the woman I value and want in my life. Not me. Not the faithful, Christian mom who was raising your children and doing the hard stuff. AND you made that decision EVERY DAY for at least 6 yrs -


kc, try to realize that it's human nature to crave the forbidden, the 'bad boy' or the ****ty woman'; it's just something in our nature to get turned on physically and psychologically by getting to do that. I'm not minimizing what he did, just trying to help you understand WHY he was driven to her.

We grow up learning more and more that we have to control ourselves, be good citizens, not break rules, deny our caveman roots. So when we get an opportunity to fulfill that hidden desire in us to BE bad, to meet up with bad, it becomes all the more desirable.

Now, six years is a LONG time. Psychologically speaking, I'm pretty sure that he so easily dumped her when caught because she HAD become his 'second wife' - and he probably wasn't even aware this was going on - so that she was no longer the 'bad' part of his life. Hell, their _coworkers _saw them as a couple. So when he had the chance to cut her loose, it was pretty easy.

Now I have no idea how this translates into whether he's worth keeping. Just trying to help you see it from their side.

And I absolutely think you should, while he is still kissing your ass (it won't last long): (1) insist he go to your parents and admit what he did and ask their forgiveness, (2) insist he get a new job, (3) have him take a polygraph, and (4) go to y'all's lawyer and have him sign a postnup stating that if he is ever caught cheating again, he walks away with NOTHING from your marriage. If he refuses to do these things, help him pack.



> My H despises that I am on here. Believes most of the people here are bitter and/or looking for new relationships. He thinks I get more upset reading posts or responses on here. (I may, but it is actually helping me to be able to relate.)


And that is the beginning of the end of his kissing your ass. Invite him to come here. Tell him that it would be a sign of good faith that he's willing to learn about what he did. If he refuses, I would question whether I would stay with him. Because that would show sorrow at getting caught, and NOT remorse.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> even when I repeatedly questioned if you were cheating during all these years, you saw me hurting, but you'd get angry and yell at me for being "paranoid."


The infamous gas-lighting. I think that of all the nonsense typically purported by adulterers, that gas-lighting, blame shifting and the rewriting of marital history are the cruelest. To experience these is torture of the betrayed spouse.

Those really hit the betrayed spouse hard because he or she truly believes that their spouse is being sincere, that there is no infidelity and that the troubles in the marriage rest solely on them and are due to their "issues" and (seemingly untrusting) nature. They're made to question their reasoning, judgment, character, worth and sanity up to years or even decades.

Through it all the betrayed endures accusations of paranoia, delusions and unreasonable behaviour all the while their accuser, who has taken a vow to love and cherish them, is aware of the truth and is active in efforts to keep it hidden. The accusations are such that the betrayed is made to reject and even silence their inner voice. It takes a lot to convince one's self to ignore their intuiton. It is utterly cruel and sadistic.




kc2 said:


> I will speak again. I will find my humor again. I will find my love of serving & helping others again.


I believe that, some fires first right. Your profession is evident in your writing.

Wishing you all the best.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> And I absolutely think you should, while he is still kissing your ass (it won't last long): (1) insist he go to your parents and admit what he did and ask their forgiveness, (2) insist he get a new job, (3) have him take a polygraph, and (4) go to y'all's lawyer and have him sign a postnup stating that if he is ever caught cheating again, he walks away with NOTHING from your marriage. If he refuses to do these things, help him pack.
> .


I completely second this.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

lordmayhem said:


> First of all, your WH has no right whatsoever to be upset that you come to this site, none at all. No ground to stand on considering what he's done....
> 
> ...The fact that your WH is upset about TAM shows that he has no true remorse about what he's done. Because if he was, he would be moving heaven and earth to save his marriage, and that means not criticize you going to a support forum.


I read your comment to him and a few of the others concerning him not wanting me on TAM. He said that he was concerned that strangers, who don't know us, were offering me advice. He felt that I was getting more upset, and he didn't want other people's comments causing me more pain. 

I think he's also referring to how I would be thinking one way and then get "enlightened" here... (i.e. the 'hysterical bonding' term truly surprised me. What I thought was a glorious time of him wanting me, turned into just a 'normal' aspect of this whole affair recovery. It was quite the 'let down' for me, made me feel like it was all 'fake,' and I told him about it.) 

So I need to take some of the blame for him not liking TAM for using people's advice to say what I should've been saying. I just thought if he heard other people shocked at the length of the time that he would understand why this is so gosh darn hard for me.

BUT, he says that he can see that I need this support from people who have gone through this. He gets that. I also reminded him who I am and how I process information. This type of forum is such a healthy aspect for me as an outlet, but also in building my own foundation for healing.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You might also tell him that it can be a wonderful place for HIM to come and get clarity on what happened and why and how to prevent it from happening again. Because no matter how many years a counselor has gone to school to become an expert, it will never match the cumulative experience (including seeing what works and what doesn't) you will find in a place like this.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> Now, six years is a LONG time. Psychologically speaking, I'm pretty sure that he so easily dumped her when caught because she HAD become his 'second wife' - and he probably wasn't even aware this was going on - so that she was no longer the 'bad' part of his life. Hell, their _coworkers _saw them as a couple. So when he had the chance to cut her loose, it was pretty easy.
> 
> And I absolutely think you should, while he is still kissing your ass (it won't last long): (1) insist he go to your parents and admit what he did and ask their forgiveness, (2) insist he get a new job, (3) have him take a polygraph, and (4) go to y'all's lawyer and have him sign a postnup stating that if he is ever caught cheating again, he walks away with NOTHING from your marriage. If he refuses to do these things, help him pack.
> 
> Invite him to come here. Tell him that it would be a sign of good faith that he's willing to learn about what he did. If he refuses, I would question whether I would stay with him. Because that would show sorrow at getting caught, and NOT remorse.


Yes, he stated that he had 'wanted to end it,' that it was a 'relief' to get caught, and that it was getting to be just 'too hard.' I believe him. You are the first, I think, to state it that way: She was getting more comfortable in her 'role' in his fantasy life and was probably becoming more demanding... Not as much fun in that. 

Yes, he contacted my father directly, confessed and apologized. My father is very disappointed in him and wants to see him make this right. He also contacted his own parents. 

I will address the job situation in another comment. Yes, I agree. It is KILLING me to have him work there.

The postnup is something I have never heard of before as an option in this - what a clever idea! 

I think he is afraid to post anything-- but he has started reading some of the other threads and my thread. I told him if he really wants to understand where I'm at, it's all in black & white on here...


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*waving*

Hi Mr. kc2, I'm really glad you're reading here. I too was skeptical at first when finding forums like this. But you will be AMAZED at the wealth of information and support and great advice people get here. Will some advice be hogwash? Of course. But knowing too much is better than not knowing enough. You'll find the stuff that works for you.

Now, since you're reading, I suggest to you that you focus on finding things that talk about the utter betrayal and devastation your wife is going through. It's often very hard for a wayward spouse to grasp just how utterly near-fatal this betrayal is for the betrayed spouse. In fact, most of you NEVER do grasp it. So when some time goes by and they're still obsessing, anxious, riding the roller coaster of emotions, and you feel like saying 'just get over it already' - DON'T.

It usually takes a BS a good two YEARS to not have the betrayal be first and foremost in the BS's thoughts, every single day. The sooner you can accept that, the easier it will be to help your wife reach a point where she doesn't just kick you out in frustration. And try to remember that you OWE her. No matter how bad you think your marriage was beforehand, or how insignificant you paint your cheating, what you did has wounded her to her very core. And by you wanting to make it work, you have to accept that you now OWE her if you want to reconcile. You can't get mad at her for asking 500 questions; frustrated with her for not healing fast enough; ready for her to just move on. It's no longer your choice. You are there ONLY by her good graces. So it behooves you to settle in, put on your humility cap, and vow to be 100% honest, open, and transparent. And maybe in a couple of years, you two will have a great, maybe even better, marriage.

I'm really really proud of you for telling her dad. That is HUGE in my book and says a lot of good about you.

And I know it's scary, but I really urge you to start your own thread. Yes, you'll get chewed out. But if you really are sincere in wanting to reconcile, you will weather the storm of outrage and THEN start listening to the valuable advice you'll get about how to put things back together. Your wife has graciously given you a second chance. Don't blow it.


----------



## nightmare01 (Oct 3, 2014)

My WW had an EA/PA that spanned about 8 years. EA's are hard to pin down regarding a start date though.. so the number of years might be reduced to about 6 in total based on how you define the start of an EA.

Anyway - We are coming up on 14 years past Dday this year in July. We're still together and generally speaking we're happy. We get along great, the relationship seems good to anyone on the outside... and maybe even to my WW as well.

The scars just don't go away though. It's always there. If she visits the place where her LTA happened and isn't in touch with me, my first thought is that she's seeing him again. Trust will never be anywhere near what it was.

To this day I resent her for what she did, and what she stole from me. We get along great but that resentment is always there lurking in the background.

People have said I should just let it go and move on. I'm not a person that can easily do that. 

I accept that it happened. I accept that there are a lot of things that happened during her LTA that she will never tell me. And as I said, generally speaking we are in a good place.

So it's possible to continue to be together after an affair. Your M will be different though. YOU will be different. 

I have been unwilling to completely trust her again. I did before, and what did that get me? So my guard is always up.

However I do trust myself a lot more now. I trust that if she cheats again that I will eventually find out, and when I do I will act on my Plan B - I will be out of our relationship like a shot from a cannon. 

Having that Plan B actually helped me to stay in the M after the affair.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

For those desiring to read this book... grab a cup of coffee first : 

Many of you have said that 6 years is just too long to R. Yep, I know.  Believe me, it haunts me to think back over those years, see pictures, consider that it was most of my 7 yr old's life.... 

However, in some ways, LIVING these past 6 yrs and finding ways to love & serve my husband when I knew he wasn't completely invested in me was a heck of a LOT HARDER than now!! 

After DDay, I felt such a relief & weight off of me: "OH! That explains why he was behaving like that..." "I WAS right all along! I'm NOT paranoid!" Does that sound ridiculous? I was actually relieved, and I realized that I could make informed decisions now that I knew. I'm not the joke anymore. 

I think I would separate only if I weren't willing to R. I absolutely see the wisdom in having some space to breathe & think, though. I could put him in our basement bedroom/ apartment for some distance, but I'm not willing to give up the sex.  Yes, I know that he hasn't been deprived in that department. Yes, I know he should be forced to feel that & see how he handles that... but I guess it's MY turn to be selfish. When we filled out a "needs" questionnaire years ago, one of my highest needs in a marriage was sex & affection. yep, I love sex. I thoroughly enjoy him. Guess I want to make sure he is willing to fill those needs for me on a consistent basis as part of learning who he is now. (again, grateful for the anonymity on here! man.) 

Someone mentioned whether I love him... I have always loved & respected that man. I have seen the worst sides of him and still felt that way: when he had no job, when he was a jerk before & during this affair, etc. I don't know anything but loving him unconditionally. Now, post DDay, he is promising and willing to be what I have always wanted. I have NEVER seen this side of him. He is like a brand new person. Yes, it could be fake, but only time will tell. He thanks me every day for giving him another day. He seems to be humbled, which is huge with his massive ego. 

He is more than willing to find a new job and move us to another state. Honestly, he is willing to do most anything to save this marriage so far - but he IS afraid I will bail on him. (I dont blame him bc, at 3 mos. out, I'm all over the place some days.) If I were him, I would only seek a new job IF I knew my spouse was committed to R. 

This process of putting out resumes and finding a job could take months to fly to interviews and so forth. He'd be leaving a very well paying job... so I am not out to ruin his life, which just affects me & our children in the end. I want both of us to be wise for our futures as well. I'm hoping that as he goes through the process of finding a new job, we will be re-building our marriage and/or I will be seeing if he is legit or not. 

What do I still struggle with?

I struggle with...
...the onslaught of thoughts and movies played out in my head. (_Does this ever end?!?!_)
...the number of years
... the fact that he was caught, and THEN decided he wanted me - He wants me, as the damaged and upset wife I am now?!?! Baffling. I was sweet & loving before this, and he didn't want that. He'd rather have "wife-zilla" lol 
...the triggers of almost everything in this area - Stupid Groupon emails alone can trigger me, since he bought them for her & him
...trying to relate to this new man who is still here & loving me despite my trying to sabotage everything by being extremely mean to him & pushing him to her
...his desire and need for me to stop bringing up past & relating things to her
...doing the every day things I used to with the same passion
...keeping my mouth shut. (There are times that I don't need to keep rubbing his face in it. He's not my punching bag, but I can so easily make him that.)
...feeling the need to check up on him, hear from him, and not using everything other means of surveillance to confirm that he is where he is and doing what he says he is doing (_PLEASE tell me THIS eventually STOPS at some point in my life!_)
...the number of years (yeah, I know, it is worthy of being listed twice)


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Ugh, the Groupon thing and money he stole from the family to spend on the OW would kill me too.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So you're concerned with HIS feelings? He needs you to not bring it up? Seriously, he's suffered no consequences at all. You're rug sweeping and it seldom works. I wish you the best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Yep, a bit too forgiving so soon. Rug sweeping is how I'm reading things. 

It will take some time whatever happens. 

I don't trust your husband (but I don't have to.)


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Damn right he wants to rugsweep.










This cheater has no remorse at all.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Well now, dang it you guys, now you are forcing me to defend him. geez. I don't want this thread going in the wrong direction.

He is NOT rugsweeping! He has been absolutely transparent with me. He has done and is doing everything asked of him. I am looking at your definition, and he is absolutely on the reconciliation side! 

I <--- read as only me, not him, wrote what I wrote. I'm assuming you read all of that after getting some coffee  and are referring to my line about his need to not have me bring it up. He didn't SAY that. I believe that he needs me to stop. 

The only thing he said is that he is wanting to forget her and me saying stuff like I have doesn't help. He said that after a horrible rage I had this week, like many others, in which I was trying to force him back to her by wanting him to remember how much he loved her, how he enjoyed her, what it was like to touch her, kiss her, be in her, that he chose her over me... blah blah. I was being such a witch & sabotaging, I guess. (not a banner moment of mine to share on here)

He has endured me being horrible since I found out. I have taken every opportunity to throw it in his face, make snide comments, test him to see if he still wants her... oh guys, I get that he did what he did for YEARS. Can you understand that **I** can't live with this rage? I hate it. It's not who I am. It's not who I want to become. They already stole so much of my life - I don't want to lose who I really am. Does that make sense? If it doesn't, that's fine.  

Forgiving??... ugh. No, I haven't forgiven him yet, but I will at some point. I will be doing that for me, not him. I will NEVER forget what he did, though. 

As I said from the beginning, my goal has always been to have an affair recovery, if I can. Honestly, I don't know that I am strong enough to do that. I don't, but I want to at least try. Being an intentional witch 24/7 isn't going to accomplish that.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Some people get over mind movies somewhat quickly and some people take much longer (years). In general, this is not a quick process. It's a betrayal on a level we couldn't imagine before it happened so coming to terms with it takes time. Lots of time. And the triggers also can last years. So he needs to be very patient and very understanding with you. 

R is the most difficult thing you will ever do (I speak from experience).


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> So you're concerned with HIS feelings? He needs you to not bring it up? Seriously, he's suffered no consequences at all. You're rug sweeping and it seldom works. I wish you the best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, for goodness' sake... No, I am NOT rugsweeping either. geez. A rugsweeper would not be saying: I still don't trust him. I do not want to blindly make decisions. I'm still struggling with all these emotions. I am not moving with him if I think he is faking who he is. There are days that I love him and other days he repulses me. I am not trusting her/them at work, etc. 

Please read my other comment regarding the comments that he hasn't suffered any consequences. I think anyone can tell by now that I can be a "juggernaut" when needed.  He HAS suffered the wrath of me as well as those closest to me. It hasn't been pretty... and he has stayed and been consistent despite it. 

I know it hasn't been long since D-Day. It hasn't been much time. I do realize that. But, keep in mind, I AM someone who looks for positives in life. I know there aren't many of us in the world, but if there is something good to see, I have to look for it. It's part of who I am. It doesn't mean that I am putting on rose-colored glasses. Believe me, I can still see everything else crystal clear. I just don't think continually being nasty to him benefits me or him - or our children. 

I do appreciate those of you who do seem genuinely concerned and are warning me of 'traps' and 'potential problems.' I am NOT ignoring your counsel. I PROMISE. Just filing them away for future reference when/if needed.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kc, I think what people are picking up on is your apparent lack of anger/disgust/rage. You SAY you have it, that you stick it to him regularly, but it DOES NOT come across in your writing. What comes across in your writing is your desperation to keep him. And we all know that such desperation leads to one thing: more cheating.

You may have YELLED at him, but I see no place in all this where he feared losing you.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Some people get over mind movies somewhat quickly and some people take much longer (years). In general, this is not a quick process. It's a betrayal on a level we couldn't imagine before it happened so coming to terms with it takes time. Lots of time. And the triggers also can last years. So he needs to be very patient and very understanding with you.
> 
> R is the most difficult thing you will ever do (I speak from experience).


Thank you for addressing this. I am learning how to handle some of the triggers - combating them w other tools (scripture, music- sometimes just hitting things can redirect me)... other times, those thoughts just hit and there's nothing I can do. It's such a helpless feeling.

I never had anxiety before or panic attacks, so that added a whole new level of fun for me w this.  geez. I found that drinking helped deadened the triggers & thoughts. I had to stop that, because, again, I don't want this turning me into something I'm not. 

Yep, I am certainly seeing that about the R. No wonder some people don't even attempt. We will either be made stronger because of this or it will reveal that we shouldn't be together. Either way, we can say we tried our best. That's all I ever ask of my kids and what I expect of myself - try your best. There's no shame in the results that way - it just ends up being what it is.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Kc2, 

I do realize how it seems to you, a new poster on TAM, that we are making some pretty bold statements about your husband's intentions, your intentions, your marriage, rug sweeping..... It's just that we have seen similar threads play out not so favorable for the BS.

Yelling and screaming at your husband and him tolerating it, might be unusual in your marriage so you may think, "wow, he's really seeing that I mean business." In actuality, HE should be doing way more of the heavy lifting. You don't have to divorce your husband, but slapping him with divorce papers would show him you are serious. 

You've already agreed to repair your marriage and shown him all your cards. You've shown your husband your posts on TAM, told us (and him) how you want and need sex. You've gone in to reconciiation 100%. 

I understand you're on board. You are trustworthy, haven't cheated, I see your cards, so I believe you. 

Your husband has had a seperate life for a long time. His kept his cards hidden and (I, RUGS), thinks he now knows what cards to play because he knows what you have. 

There are problems in your marriage. There are problems with your husband. Counseling as a couple and as an individual would have to be necessary in my opinion to ever repair this situation. 

You come across as a "fixer" in your posts. YOU really want to fix this so you are taking the lead. (Again, just MY observation). Your husband should be taking the lead in all of this mess. You say he is doing all the right things and I hope he is but he has not proved trustworthy and that's why I am saying be cautious. 

I divorced my husband and I don't care if he is dating Cindy Crawford. I'm just glad he's no longer my problem. I have ZERO like and respect for my ex-husband but the feelings of anger still come up from time to time when I think of all the times he left me holding the bag when he was out wining and dining women with my children's college money. 

I can imagine marriages can be repaired but yours and everyone else's here will never be the same. That anger might fade but it will never go away completly. You have to start a brand new marriage with a new person - A person you just met with not a great history. 

All some of us are saying is be careful.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> kc, I think what people are picking up on is your apparent lack of anger/disgust/rage. You SAY you have it, that you stick it to him regularly, but it DOES NOT come across in your writing. What comes across in your writing is your desperation to keep him. And we all know that such desperation leads to one thing: more cheating.
> 
> You may have YELLED at him, but I see no place in all this where he feared losing you.


I understand that. Well, I need him to get on here and post his side then.  He read what you wrote, btw, and appreciated it. 

Desperation? hmm. Nope, no desperation in losing him here. Not at all. I think I have clearly stated that I am not afraid of him going back to her. I do NOT want to be a fool of again - that is my fear. I also stated that I don't NEED him. I am deciding if I WANT him. I know that I deserve better than who he was. He is trying to be that better man. 

He called our MC this past Monday panicking bc he thought he was coming home to packed bags due to an email he received from me that pretty much told him I was done. He probably would've been, if I didn't have someone else intercede. (I think that I posted that I was angry and spiraling that day or that I had been this week... guess I should've gone into detail as to the absolute rage I was in and how he was responding to that.) 

A lot of my not choosing to post much about his current behavior has to do with the immediate backlash of "well, he just got caught, of course he is going to..." "He's just doing that because it's new." "6 years? There's no way he ended that quickly. He's not over her." 

Knowing that it might be safe to do so now, I will share a few things: 

My H is an unemotional person who has a pretty big ego. If I were to say that he cried to me and our pastor, felt sick more than once that I might leave, has gotten on his knees on pavement in a parking lot begging me not to leave him, left work early many times because he was so worried about us and wanted to get back home to me... I don't know that many would view that as anything. After all, WS's cry when caught, then do it again later. For me, knowing my H, this has been huge for him. 

His consistency & efforts since that day have been what I've been watching. He found our MC, He set up his own IC and found the crisis marriage seminar that I first posted about... He initiated changing his phone from a work phone to a personal one, so I get the records, He intentionally gave me all his passwords... He wants to move out of this city with me to get us away from her... He sends me texts throughout the day showing his computer and lets me know when he leaves work, and he is the one who put the GPS on his phone for me ---ya know, DOING all the things that he needs to be doing to be transparent & showing that he is committed to this marriage.

So there... does that help?


----------



## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Kc2,

you are an open book to him ,
he even knows your moves; you are just raging in vain ; let me ask you a question :

ask him to sell you his portion of the house to you ; will he do it ?

I attempted to cheat ( escaped from the party) , came back confessing and gave her legal lifetime right to use the house .
Will he do somthing big like that ?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Don't get upset by other posters speculations about your situation. I'm a fairly new poster here and have ran into some of the same things. I'm in a good R right now with my FWW and a lot of the speculations about her and me on here are way off. Instead of debating that just let it go and ignore the posts you know don't apply. I got baited into an argument and ended up getting banned for 3 days for defending myself and my wife against false posts. There are trolls here same as every forum. Personally I think you have a good chance to make it. Everybody deserves a second chance, nobody deserves a third. Good luck!


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

nightmare01 said:


> My WW had an EA/PA that spanned about 8 years. EA's are hard to pin down regarding a start date though.. so the number of years might be reduced to about 6 in total based on how you define the start of an EA.
> 
> Anyway - We are coming up on 14 years past Dday this year in July. We're still together and generally speaking we're happy. We get along great, the relationship seems good to anyone on the outside... and maybe even to my WW as well.


YOU & your wife are who I was looking for from my very beginning post! I just wanted to hear that someone somewhere as been through this for this length of time and recovered. I don't know why that's important to me because it doesn't really change things about my life, but it just is.

Thank you for taking the time to answer truthfully about where you are now. My H and I were discussing that after MC and how we both realize that I will never fully trust him again. I asked him if he was really willing to live under that scrutiny down the road... Very hard to predict any of that, but reading what you wrote does help put things into perspective for me a bit.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kc, he's doing all the right things. No one's denying that. I think, however, in your case, BECAUSE of the length of the affair, I would want to see concrete changes from him in the form of, as Zouz suggests, giving you 100% ownership of the house, in case he does it again. How can he argue with that? And if he does, I would question keeping him. Or at the very least, him going to get a postnup agreement written up and you taking it to a VERY good lawyer to vet, giving you all the assets aside from the house in case he gets caught again. 

If he has TRULY seen the light, he will jump on the chance. It's actually a very good test to see if he's all words or if he's truly remorseful and wants to help you.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

I wouldn't be too concerned with some of the posts on this forum. There will always be posters who are a tad overzealous, militant or obtuse in their comments, particularly in the Coping with Infidelity section.

The sad reality is that there really isn't much that someone can do take 'make up' for an affair, especially one of this length. There's nothing tangible or quantifiable that one can look at.

So although I do somewhat (barely) understand the comments relating to consequences, remorse and making amends, the adulterer is really limited in those areas. I wouldn't have it in me to reconcile but I am supportive and understanding of those who choose to do so.

It can take years to work through infidelity so do not feel that you should be in any type of hurry. I do think that a little space is necessary for you even for a little bit but I understand that like hysterical bonding, having your spouse around is a way of keeping him close that makes you feel more secure.

I think that you are handling this way better than most, especially three months out. Keep well and all the best in your endeavours.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

In my opinion, your WH was very skilled at having an affair. After all, he managed to lead a completely double life for 6 years. He lied convincingly and managed all of the logistics of balancing two women, both of whom he slept with regularly.

Now, he appears skilled at managing your reconciliation. You list all of the convincing behaviors that appear to reflect genuine emotion and commitment.

So, the man is skilled and convincing when he puts his mind to it. He's obviously very good at fooling you. I would be extremely wary of being fooled into this heartfelt reconciliation. I would guard my heart very carefully and closely. He's good at what he does.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First and foremost, he can lie to you at the drop of a hat. 

How are you addressing his ease at lying?


----------



## Red Rain (Mar 6, 2013)

Hi kc2,

My husband had a three year affair with a coworker. During his affair, I had been suspicious, my gut always talking to me, and I asked him countless times if he had a mistress or if things were alright with us. He never admitted the affair until I finally had hard proof. Then, like your husband, he declared his love for me and dropped his mistress. He promised me a new beginning. He had lied to me for three years, spending time, money, and emotion on another woman. I was played for a fool. I was the nice, sweet wife, who cooked, cleaned and cared for the family while he was out getting his ego stroked. I truly loved this man, however, and decided to reconcile.

I am now 2 years and 5 months post DDay. Guess what? As Alte Dame stated, your husband is good at fooling you. Be wary. My husband's loving, heartfelt reconciliation is nothing more than a show. It is merely a way for him to preserve his image as a good family man. 

He never broke contact with his mistress, even though we moved away. New email addresses and meeting up while traveling for work kept the addiction alive. Playing marriage police I discovered his continuing double life 16 days ago. In those 16 days I have kept silent and watched the master at work. His lies of loving me just freely flow. He doesn't even avoid eye contact or touching my hand while spewing out his lies. When he talks of our future grandchildren and family vacations, my skin crawls because I know he is meeting up with his mistress next weekend.

Anyone who can live a double life for three years (five and a half now), really does not know what love is. The thrill of getting one over on me is better than any drug. 

I do not know if your husband is like mine, but be very careful. My husband was full of tears when I discovered his mistress over two years ago, but now I know that it was sadness at being caught, not sadness that he had stolen years of my life and crushed me. 

Now I am finally planning my escape. I should have done it years ago. Listen to your heart and gut. If you feel you are experiencing a fake reconciliation, you are. Six years. Fake love. Selfish behavior. 

You deserve better.

Red


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Red, I hope that you are telling your lawyer to strip him clean.

And kc, THAT is why you must insist on a postnup, or else a divorce and then a prenup.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> ... And kc, THAT is why you must insist on a postnup, or else a divorce and then a prenup.


I thought the mention of a postnup was genius, btw. I had never even considered something like! Loved that wisdom. 

He hadn't been on here when that was first mentioned to me on 2/18, so I asked him. He said that he would do whatever it takes bc he is absolutely committed to NEVER do this again to me or the kids. We are in the process of having that drawn up.

Actually, many weeks before I ever knew about TAM, he was willing to go through all of our stocks, money market, bank accts, house, 401K, etc. to make sure I knew the current balances. (I already knew most of them) He wanted to reassure me that he wasn't moving money - which was a concern of mine during those initial weeks I was in shock & not plugged into my life.

...and yes, my cynicism is ALWAYS there, in EVERY circumstance and situation to say, "...of course he won't do this again, he got his 'fill' for at least 6 yrs! He's had has fun! duh!" 
or "The only way a postnup is applied is if he is caught. You will forever be deemed a private investigator against him. Do you want that life sentence in a marriage?" 

...but it gets countered with "You will NEVER fully trust him, or any other man, ever again! You have a life sentence of closely watching, regardless. This is the way life is now." 
and "But he cheated when you were unaware, now you aren't. He'd be a fool to cheat now." 

Then I go back to being skeptical and angry and hurt... yep, good times.  But, regardless, I think the postnup is wise.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> First and foremost, he can lie to you at the drop of a hat.
> 
> How are you addressing his ease at lying?


Yes, that is so very painful and can throw me into utter rage to think about all the years of lying & half-truths. It's not just the lying, though. It's the gaslighting-- making me feel like I was wrong for questioning that he'd cheat on me during these years. He was cruel. THAT, to me, is what made him such a good manipulator and what I fear most in him. It's why I question EVERY single thing that comes out of his mouth... I'm so leery of his intentions. 

He has to deal with the type of man/dad he wants to be. Some of this is being addressed while going to IC and MC. He has to choose to be a man of his word. I can only hold him accountable to what he says and does. TIME will tell. 

If he ever lies or tells half-truths again, we are ABSOLUTELY done. It's pretty simple. Very black & white. He knows that.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Yes, that is so very painful and can throw me into utter rage to think about all the years of lying & half-truths. It's not just the lying, though. It's the gaslighting-- making me feel like I was wrong for questioning that he'd cheat on me during these years. He was cruel. THAT, to me, is what made him such a good manipulator and what I fear most in him. It's why I question EVERY single thing that comes out of his mouth... I'm so leery of his intentions.
> 
> He has to deal with the type of man/dad he wants to be. Some of this is being addressed while going to IC and MC. He has to choose to be a man of his word. I can only hold him accountable to what he says and does. TIME will tell.
> 
> If he ever lies or tells half-truths again, we are ABSOLUTELY done. It's pretty simple. Very black & white. He knows that.


Totally, gaslighting is a b**** but in your good and bad moments know that things will get better. It's okay to spiral and wallow and experience intense rage but with time these shall fade and you won't seem that anxious, angry, fearful or hurt and have your emotions fluctuate constantly. Keep your head up, keep communicating and expressing yourself and best of wishes.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> In my opinion, your WH was very skilled at having an affair. After all, he managed to lead a completely double life for 6 years. He lied convincingly and managed all of the logistics of balancing two women, both of whom he slept with regularly.
> 
> Now, he appears skilled at managing your reconciliation. You list all of the convincing behaviors that appear to reflect genuine emotion and commitment.
> 
> So, the man is skilled and convincing when he puts his mind to it. He's obviously very good at fooling you. I would be extremely wary of being fooled into this heartfelt reconciliation. I would guard my heart very carefully and closely. He's good at what he does.


I have read your post over & over again during the last week. I keep seeing other things that are hitting me differently than I first read it. Thank you for that. Believe me, by no means am I taking anything lightly or at face value, and I am certainly not the same person I was prior to DDay. (unfortunately, in some ways)

I can't say that I don't continue to beat myself up for not seeing what was going on in my own life. How just ONE more step on my part could've avoided all this hurt for me and my children! But I never looked up affairs on the internet, so I didn't know the steps to take... all I did by questioning him without evidence was push them further underground from me - and yet, it was still right out there in the open. Quite impressive on their part, actually, I mean, if you get passed how disgusting it all was.

The "unaware me" trusted him and believed him when he answered me. I was manipulated, played, deceived and fooled by him. I think we have all established that fact and my utter stupidity in allowing that. 

But, that prior me doesn't exist anymore. NOW, he is dealing with someone who IS FULLY aware & expecting transparency. I don't trust him and am diligent. HUGE difference. And once the post-nup is in place, I have that as my assurance that I will be well compensated, IF he is foolish enough to make me enact it.

At least, those are my thoughts right now. They could change in a minute or two.  It's this whole waiting and watching that is so very frustrating WHILE going through all this emotional turmoil. MC and IC say not to make major decisions right now anyhow - I just have to feel this and go through it. ugh.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

kc2 said:


> MC and IC say not to make major decisions right now anyhow - I just have to feel this and go through it. ugh.


Given how long his affair was and the fact that he did it all right in your own backyard (usually these very long-term affairs succeed because the AP is out of town), I think it is good advice to give yourself a lot more time to process.

I am willing to bet that as this settles in, you will find much more righteous anger about how your WH has treated you. I will also bet that you will find yourself losing respect for him. These two things can seriously shift the calculus for what you want for your future.

It is human nature to jump to a 'healing' scenario when you have been so terribly wounded. The ideal thing would be to just wake up and find that your WS simply hadn't betrayed you in this way. Your instincts tell you to just keep things together, to just try to return things to a happier, more stable reality.

This instinct changes, however, as the clouds of betrayal clear. The image that the BS has of the WS evolves (often quickly) and the BS doesn't feel so desperate anymore to have this liar for a life partner.

Sure, some couples reconcile and some cheaters change and make amends. The problem for you is that you can't possibly know yet whether you and your WH will be in that minority. So, as I said before, please guard your heart. He cannot be trusted with it.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> I can't say that I don't continue to beat myself up for not seeing what was going on in my own life. How just ONE more step on my part could've avoided all this hurt for me and my children! But I never looked up affairs on the internet, so I didn't know the steps to take... all I did by questioning him without evidence was push them further underground from me - and yet, it was still right out there in the open. Quite impressive on their part, actually, I mean, if you get passed how disgusting it all was.
> 
> The "unaware me" trusted him and believed him when he answered me. I was manipulated, played, deceived and fooled by him. I think we have all established that fact and my utter stupidity in allowing that.


Someone that you love and trusted abused your trust in them, you are not to blame for that and you shouldn't beat yourself up over it.



kc2 said:


> MC and IC say not to make major decisions right now anyhow - I just have to feel this and go through it. ugh.


Your MC and IC are correct and I think that it is worth repeating. You should not burden yourself with the responsibilty of making any huge decisions right now.

It is said that one should never make any huge decisions after a major trauma and experiencing infidelity is traumatic. Keep in mind that it takes a few years (two is ordinarily the observed minimum) to work through infidelity, be patient and understanding with yorself.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Given how long his affair was and the fact that he did it all right in your own backyard (usually these very long-term affairs succeed because the AP is out of town), I think it is good advice to give yourself a lot more time to process.
> 
> I am willing to bet that as this settles in, you will find much more righteous anger about how your WH has treated you. I will also bet that you will find yourself losing respect for him. These two things can seriously shift the calculus for what you want for your future.
> 
> ...



:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

My WH wants to send an email apology to the OWH. He wants to make sure that the OWH knows he is truly sorry for this betrayal and is fully committed to pursuing me. *Is this wise? Is this a "normal" thing for a WH to do? Or can this create more of a problem? *

_(FYI, buried in this thread: I already called the OWH the day after D-Day (Thanksgiving). That idiot OWH didn't tell me about the EA/PA when he found out about it 4 yrs ago! He just believed OW when she said it was just EA and over. Dumb, stupid man. They were in and continued the EA/PA. I would've been like a fly on crap on both of them if I had been made aware with his proof! geez. 

Last contact I had w/ him was the Tues after D-Day when he said they decided to work on their marriage. I doubt she told him the whole truth. She had denied everything that weekend until she received my WH's email on that Sun. night ending their EA/PA and was faced w/ the proof Mon night that OWH requested from me.)_

Anyhow, *does it send some sort of subtle message to the OW (either intentional or unintentional on my husband's part) that I might not see since I've never been through this before?* I'm just trying not to be naive. 

I despise that every single thing in my life feels the need to be scrutinized now. It's just exhausting.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Others will weigh in here, I'm sure, but if the question is whether it's the norm, I don't think it is. Usually WS's try to stay away from things like this to avoid the potential for physical confrontations. (They are usu. opportunistic cowards who are happy enough to home wreck, but can't face the damage they've wrought.)

If your WH is intent on doing it, though, he should man up and face the OWH instead of hiding behind an e-mail. I realize that this invites the possibility of it getting physical, but if he's going to do it, he should do it right. For once in his life.


----------



## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Agree with alte dame. Have the stones to face the guy face to face. In any event, if I was the husband I woudn't believea word out of your husband mouth.

Regardless. This is your decision to make. If you don't want him doing this, end of discussion. You did your "duty" when you called the husband after DDay. You owe him nothing more. He's going to work on his marriage? Did a great job manning up 4 years ago for your sake as well as his own.. Did everything wrong. She's got him wrapped around her finger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When I coach BSs, one of the things I tell them to have the ex-WS to do, to truly get over the AP, is to go to the BS's parents and admit what they did and apologize to the parents for hurting their child. It's a true sign they're really remorseful. 

Has he done that yet? If so, let him apologize to the OWH. If not, tell him to start there first. It means more.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

kc2 said:


> I have no idea what is going on in her home, and he hasn't had any contact with her. She has avoided walking by his office or directly contacting him, unless absolutely needed for work. I think I scared her because she knows I have every right to humiliate her to her family. I, unlike her, do have restraint when it comes to knowingly hurting someone else and her children.
> 
> I found out Thanksgiving Day. The last correspondence was her husband sending me an email stating they were going to work on their marriage the Tuesday after. I sincerely doubt she told him the entire truth. (She didn't the first time they were caught over 4 yrs ago, and she adamantly denied it that entire weekend until I sent him the proof.)
> 
> ...





> I told him it's like he strapped a massive boulder to me that I have to drag behind me. Over time, it may erode and pieces break off, but I will forever have to painfully drag this with me. It is a reminder of what he chose to do. It's a life sentence for me, regardless of whether I stay with him or not.


One way to lessen the weight of the boulder would be for your husband to go through all the emails and telephone calls and construct an excel file of all the fornication. Ask him to include details like, memorable aspects. Quality of sex. Discussions. Work related memories. You can then review it. Tell him that he needs to be absolutely straightforward to help you digest this lump of shxt sandwich. If he can't stand doing it, then you know he is not committed.

While it is true that workplace affairs call for changing jobs, it should not be at the cost of our family finances or your children's roots. I think you are tough enough that he will not start up the affair again. What he might do is sit with her and complain to one another about how it sucks to eff up.

Tell him that if he feels bummed out, he should take up with you, IC or MC.

If you are able to have sex, then that can help, until the chemical high of sex wears off and you face the facts. However, it may be good to have hysterical bonding. You don't have to promise your husband jack shyte now, but maybe you want to have a carrot as well as a stick. Your emotions will decide whether or not your want to share a bed with him.

You have always been chasing your WH. Now the tables are turned. If he is the one less desirous of the relationship, do you find him attractive or craven?

Your children may well never forgive him, at least not 100 percent. Two uncles of mine on either side of family, my mother's twin brother and my father's second oldest brother, both lost a great deal of their children's love and respect. Both uncles, one a crane operator and the other university professor, disinherited their children. Revenge of the rejected father, you might say.

My mother's brother only died very recently. One son did not come to the wake. His youngest daughter debated not coming. He left nearly everything to his youngest son, whom he had with OW. This has sown more seeds of conflict in the family. So, the selfish cheaters do more selfish shyte to poison the water.

You're a smart woman. You will figure out what to do.

re: husband's apology
I see nothing wrong with it. In person with you there to witness. Does OWH have a conceal carry weapons permit?

re: R with a selfish spouse
Read Road Scholar's thread. His wife was very selfish. Since she committed to R, she became less selfish. Her character underwent change.

He Catholic and faith was an important aspect of his decision to R. He was discouraged by many here, so you may wish to read a thread in which the poster goes agains the stream.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> When I coach BSs, one of the things I tell them to have the ex-WS to do, to truly get over the AP, is to go to the BS's parents and admit what they did and apologize to the parents for hurting their child. It's a true sign they're really remorseful.
> 
> Has he done that yet? If so, let him apologize to the OWH. If not, tell him to start there first. It means more.


Yeah, you mentioned this before and there is wisdom in showing this respect and accountability. My H DID talk to my 80 yr old dad and apologize to him (before I knew about TAM). My dad told him he was disappointed in him and wanted to know what his intentions were... 

The sad thing is that it opened up a whole world of hurt for my dad. He did the VERY same thing to my mom many, many years ago. 

(My dad had a LTA w a co-worker, anonymous letter mailed to my mom stated that she needed to "watch" her husband w/OW, Mom got all FBI on him, he vowed R, moved all of us to another state, OW divorced her husband and left her kids to follow my dad, my mom found out she was in town and forced a decision, Dad left us that night and eventually married OW. Still married. Not sure how happy they are, but they stayed married. I do love them both.)

I was 9yrs when my dad left. I was broken. Couldn't understand why I wasn't good enough for him to choose to stay and why I wasn't wanted. I didn't know the whole story. Never heard the real truth until I was older. Took a bit for my dad and I to restore our relationship once I learned about it, but we did. He came to Christ when he was in his late 50's - changed him. My dad and I are VERY close. We are in separate states, but talk almost every day and have for over 25 yrs. 

My dad cried when he found out what my H did. It made him remember hurting me as a child and apologized to me again. It ANGERS me that my 80yr old dad is concerned about me & the kids now and had to be reminded of the hurt that has been long forgiven and, well, was forgotten until my own D-day. (My mom was the first person I called. I was truly lost and needed someone who understood the utter hurt and anger I was feeling.)

My husband KNEW this history about me. He knew that cheating would destroy me --- just like I felt as that 9 yr old little girl, sitting by her bedroom window, crying and praying that her dad would turn his car around and come back. He didn't. 

Yep, I am a shrink's dream patient....


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry, but I'm GLAD it made your dad hurt. What he did created who YOU are, enabled YOU to find a cheating man to emulate your dad. Your dad needed to feel the pain. For his sake and yours.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

kc2 said:


> Yeah, you mentioned this before and there is wisdom in showing this respect and accountability. My H DID talk to my 80 yr old dad and apologize to him (before I knew about TAM). My dad told him he was disappointed in him and wanted to know what his intentions were...
> 
> The sad thing is that it opened up a whole world of hurt for my dad. He did the VERY same thing to my mom many, many years ago.
> 
> ...



If your husband and the OW would have ended their affair and you would never have to find out, would you choose this option? 

Would you (honestly) think you would be better off just not knowing? 

My friend had a LTA with her good frien's husband. She says she has broken it off although they still are in an emotional affair. I really wanted to tell this poor guy's wife but decided to stay out of it and mind my own business. My friend told someone else and that someone else, told me. I acted like I didn't know about it. I don't know why, I just did. 

Now, this person wants to tell the AP's spouses. I advised her to think about it or tell our mutual friend, either she comes clean to the BS or she will be outed. 

I am comfortable with my decision to mind my own business but it took me a few weeks to mull it over. I am a BS and was in the dark for 8 years. 

I don't want to be in other people's business and yet I wish someone would have told me. ?? 

Anyway, back to my original question. Would you want to know years after the fact if your marriage was ok?


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Rugs said:


> I am comfortable with my decision to mind my own business but it took me a few weeks to mull it over. I am a BS and was in the dark for 8 years.
> 
> I don't want to be in other people's business and yet I wish someone would have told me. ??


Evil triumphs when good people do nothing....


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> ...would be for your husband to go through all the emails and telephone calls and construct an excel file of all the fornication... Ask him to include details...


We basically did this - but it was me asking questions regarding emails or other items I found. As painful as it was to hear the answer, and for him to answer honestly, he did. Sometimes, I would blow up, but he did give me the answers. I asked some stuff, I never should've. 



LongWalk said:


> ...If you are able to have sex, then that can help, until the chemical high of sex wears off and you face the facts... Your emotions will decide whether or not your want to share a bed with him...


Yes, to taking advantage of the HB. I view it as finally getting what I deserve--regardless of what we decide down the road. It is not a surprise to my H that I thoroughly enjoy and crave sex. He has always joked that I was a guy in a former life. It has actually been an issue in our marriage since the beginning. Granted, since we started again after D-day, there are times that I have to change positions, and usually I'm still fighting off the triggers or movies that hit me. I was doing well, but this last week especially, I have been repulsed by him. I am grateful that my desire to have sex is stronger than my thoughts, though. I take it day by day. 



LongWalk said:


> ...You have always been chasing your WH. Now the tables are turned. If he is the one less desirous of the relationship, do you find him attractive or craven?...


He seems to be fighting for us to R. He is trying to do all he can. Granted, he has always had the the ability to make me go weak in the knees. Still does. Ergo, it is the problem I have or the saving grace for both of us. I guess time will tell. 



LongWalk said:


> ...Your children may well never forgive him, at least not 100 percent....


Our children. <sighs> Our 23 yr daughter will probably never be able to get passed this. She, most likely, won't allow him to walk her down the aisle. His 21 yr old son doesn't respect him bc he didn't love me as a husband should. The 13 yr olds don't really understand everything, but they understand enough to be hurt & frustrated. The 7 yr old is oblivious, except that he learned that since the big fight on Thanksgiving, mom isn't the same. 

I really don't know what else can bring a man to be able to REALLY see himself than to be exposed to his children as he has been. He has to decide if he is going to be a dad who fought with everything he could to win back the respect & love of his family or not. He has to determine how he wants his children to define him and his character for the rest of their lives.



LongWalk said:


> re: husband's apology
> I see nothing wrong with it. In person with you there to witness. Does OWH have a conceal carry weapons permit?


We don't know if the OWH has a CCW. 
I like that idea of my being there to hear what takes place firsthand. I can see why Alte Dame and PhillyGuy13 suggested that it be face to face as well. That's wise on so many levels, although I didn't 'get it' when I first read it.



LongWalk said:


> re: R with a selfish spouse
> Read Road Scholar's thread. His wife was very selfish. Since she committed to R, she became less selfish. Her character underwent change... He was discouraged by many here, so you may wish to read a thread in which the poster goes against the stream...


I sought this out and read most of it, but I did skip some in the middle to read later. Thank you for that reference. I understand that people who post comments range in their experiences and point of references. I'm alarmed, though, at some of the nastiness on many of the threads. For me, I am still so raw in this. I don't even understand most of the affair language, so it's been challenging just trying to process some of that as well. lol My entire world has been shaken, but it IS helpful to hear many different views. Filtering is a good thing.  

Anyhow, it was also good for me to read some of RS's varying emotions and concerns like I have. Granted, my H's 6 yr EA/PA is, well, <sighs> utterly overwhelming to say the least.  For now, I am just trying to get myself stable, watch his behavior and intentions... and expect to be able to make clearer decisions at some point. Heck, I will be happy when I can just function "normally" again, if that ever happens. Thank you for your input.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Rugs said:


> If your husband and the OW would have ended their affair and you would never have to find out, would you choose this option?
> 
> Would you (honestly) think you would be better off just not knowing? ... Would you want to know years after the fact if your marriage was ok?


OH Heck yes I would want to know! Absolutely! If my H lived with this sin/a secret, he wouldn't have to deal with the exposure and defining for himself who he wants to be. That means, I would still living with a fraud EVEN IF he was being wonderful in our marriage. Exposure to this type of behavior (sin) forces change in the people involved.. all the people involved, including me. 

Do not get me wrong, the thought that I 'caught' him and that caused him to stop this LTA is just DEVASTATING and makes me constantly question how long they would've continued. IF he had ended it and then came to me and confessed... hmm... it would have still hurt, and I would've still been so very angry, BUT I would've eventually reach the point of saying, "at least he ended it and chose me" - regardless of whether we R'd or D'd. 

I know a number of people who knew about my husband and this co-worker. NONE of them spoke up to me or to tell him or her to grow up and keep their pants on. One tried in a subtle way, but I didn't take the hint then (that was 2010). I'm sure she felt like she tried. I wish she had tried harder. My children were unnecessarily hurt in this! Anyone could've anonymously contacted me. Anyone. Someone. ugh. The OWH caught them. At least that would've forced this in 2010. Early in their EA/PA. It started in 2008 or 2009. ugh. 

Seriously, I would want to know ASAP to make my OWN choices and be empowered.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> Sorry, but I'm GLAD it made your dad hurt. What he did created who YOU are, enabled YOU to find a cheating man to emulate your dad. Your dad needed to feel the pain. For his sake and yours.


I understand what you are saying. He is 80 yrs though. That was something stupid he did when he was in is late 30yrs. I don't define him based on that. 

Yes, it actually feel this whole journey has been most rewarding for my mom... because I think my dad actually NOW understands how devastating it was for my mom. ugh. I guess I should be glad I could help. ugh. 

Anyhow, yes, I do get that... My dad has been here before when he came to know Christ as his Savior and realized what he had done. For me, I see my dad who just wants me loved, appreciated and protected. My H lost that role. And the parallel life is, well, sickening. So sad, but there's nothing I can do to change that. 

Not really sure why I wasn't enough for my H. I keep going over my life. He keeps saying it wasn't me at all, but there HAS to be a reason that she was more appealing. Worthwhile. Desired. ugh. I don't get it. I just don't.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I think you are doing a good job. In any case you are thoughtful and articulate. I presume your husband is quiet intelligent and in that you match each other. This may be part of the explanation to what he found attractive in her.

First, I think that the human mind unconsciously ranks sex partners and potential sex parters according to a short list of attributes. Your husband may have liked some feature of OW that surprizes you. He may have found her stupid laugh stupid but cute.

One thing is certain. You are upright; she is cheater. She may have sent your H a vibe. "Here is some naughty adulterous pvssy just for you." Inside of your H there was a desire to have that forbidden woman who would degrade her marriage to please him.

Hence, after a period of time it became less tasty. She demanded love, which he gave her. That is why he became distant. But in the end he was no longer so into her. Throughout this affair he might never have elevated her past you in any aspect of attraction. In any event your integrity has always been a trump card in your favor. Ironic that he no longer has this in his own hand. He will always be morally flawed.

Can people come back from such failure. Sure. Is it an easy road? No.

Someone like your husband should define his life goals and then layout concrete steps to reach them. If he has damaged his relationship with his own children, then he should be working to repair the damage.

My uncles who cheated tried to repair the damage but failed. They took refuge in relationships with OW. That in itself worsened everything. Your husband has not made that blunder. He still has a lot of work ahead.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> ...Hence, after a period of time it became less tasty. She demanded love, which he gave her. That is why he became distant. But in the end he was no longer so into her. Throughout this affair he might never have elevated her past you in any aspect of attraction. In any event your integrity has always been a trump card in your favor. Ironic that he no longer has this in his own hand. He will always be morally flawed.


Not sure how valuable that trump card is... but thank you for stating that. 

No, I'll never be able to compete w/ that fantasy world they had. He says the sex was "easy" and "convenient"- and she was. I'm sure she acted like she was thrilled with every single thing he did, never asked him to do anything different, and she most likely faked it during their "lunches" - I'm sure that fed his ego. After all, her job as an adulteress, was to make him feel admired and appreciated. yep, similar to a prostitute, but she just didn't handle her finances well and should've demanded cash instead of lunches and emails. Stupid adulterous mom. 

He was certainly confused during this time. He didn't want to lose me but liked the way she made him feel bc of the falseness/allure of it with no kids, spouses or real life issues involved. She knew his work, so he didn't have to explain anything to her. Again, it was easier. I always thought he was a man of strength - a protector/provider with strong work ethics. Nope. He was weak and looked for the easy way out with her. 



LongWalk said:


> Can people come back from such failure. Sure. Is it an easy road? No.
> 
> Someone like your husband should define his life goals and then layout concrete steps to reach them. If he has damaged his relationship with his own children, then he should be working to repair the damage.


Yep, hard road. Both options of R or D are difficult. I'm not feeling desperate towards either one, so I think that's a healthy place to be right now. (?) It is what it is. There's aspects I can control and some I can't. My emotions are not being well controlled right now. 

Okay, all that said, I just don't get this: How will I ever be "attractive" enough to him now when I come with the same stress and busy-ness that he wanted to avoid for so many years? Now he says that he will handle it. Now he is willing to do anything to save our marriage. Now he doesn't want to have anything to do with her. (and he is DOING all those things to show that) BUT... I really don't have anything more or different to offer him. I don't. What I had wasn't enough. I accepted him as he was all these years. I found ways to love him, regardless. 

I won't ever be able to give him that dopamine high he got with her. It's not that I view her as "better" than me, um, she's clearly not. But, like you said, she had the "illicit" part that I won't ever have. I don't get it. I'm a hardworking, faithful Christian wife/mom who has no reservations in the bedroom - I thought I'd be a husband's dream. 

I can see why he could find that EA/PA as a lure - an excitement that is different from his every day - but then, I don't see why... well, not for 6 yrs! Not for stealing part of my life! Not for seeing me and the kids every day! Not for knowing how it would absolutely shatter me. I will NEVER understand that part. I just won't. I need to accept that I won't EVER get a suitable answer on that or get it. 

Yes, he is trying; he is being patient. He is jumping through hoops to not lose me. (um, and for the record, he darn well SHOULD be! He should be crawling through fire to get me a glass of lemonade. He should be GROVELING. Maybe, just maybe, he pulled his head out of his butt and actually sees what in the heck he is losing, and it has scared the living daylights out of him. Okay, maybe that's not true either, but who knows right now?)

Anyhow, even that rational makes me sad, confused and angry. I look at him, and it's hard to separate my WH with who he is striving to be now. He wasn't the man of character I thought he was. He's wasn't the example I wanted for our children. I wanted a husband/dad with honor. NOW, he is trying to be that type of husband and dad, well, ya know, after he was caught. 

Today is just a bad day. Clearly, I'm a confused puppy... There's probably nothing to be said to this post that hasn't already been. It's just part of this journey. 

Tomorrow is another day.


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

The realities are his little fantasy is over now that you know and deep down he fears divorce because his cosy little world as he knows it would collapse, no wife, no house, the possibillity of paying child support for the 5 kids, etc.

Damn right he doesn't want divorce. As for his job this should be non negotiable. If he refuses to change jobs and remove himself from her than i would be spelling it out to him that Divorce is inevitable.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Adriana's husband cheated. She kicked him to the curb without a second thought. They had no children.

Illicit sex vesus sex with spouse: you now have make up sex that may be very good. In any event it is a new kind of sex. OW is not having it and cannot have it, unless your husband has to reconcile with her but even then it is something new, the reintroduction of fornication but elevated to vanilla sex.

What happened to OW, I forget. Did her husband divorce her?

Road Scholar talked about his wife grovelling. He didn't like the idea of saying stuff to knock her down just to get a thrill.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> Adriana's husband cheated. She kicked him to the curb without a second thought. They had no children.
> 
> Illicit sex vesus sex with spouse: you now have make up sex that may be very good. In any event it is a new kind of sex. OW is not having it and cannot have it, unless your husband has to reconcile with her but even then it is something new, the reintroduction of fornication but elevated to vanilla sex.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying about illicit sex vs sex w/ spouse. Yes, it IS different now - but I have to work hard to get passed the mental images of them. I love it though. I always have. I have stated before, I have always thoroughly enjoyed him. 

OW's husband is the true definition of rugsweeper... Hid from me the affair in 2010 when he found out about it. She told him "everything" after I told him the next day when I found out on Thanksgiving. He emailed me and told me they are "working on their marriage," but I doubt she told him the truth because she never did before.

No, I struggle, Longwalk, with this whole R thing, if you haven't noticed. THIS is the man I have loved. He is who I wanted. To find out about this LTA has cut me off at the knees. I am struggling with wanting to reconcile only because I don't trust him now, and I'm dealing with all these emotions. 

I don't know who this man is now.. He prays with me every morning. He tells me every night, "Thank you for another day even though I don't deserve it." He is being EVERYTHING I have always wanted... BUT, I have 6 yrs of lies & cruelty to process as well. I am not doing that well right now.

He is taking me to Hawaii in a couple weeks. He wants to get me away from all of these triggers and spend time alone together (something we never did during our marriage for obvious reasons). I don't know... I'm just very confused. Scared. Unsure. Not sure of anything right now. I don't know what is real with him and what's not. Just so very frustrating.

Anyone have a crystal ball I can borrow?


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Sports Fan said:


> The realities are his little fantasy is over now that you know and deep down he fears divorce because his cosy little world as he knows it would collapse, no wife, no house, the possibillity of paying child support for the 5 kids, etc.
> 
> Damn right he doesn't want divorce. As for his job this should be non negotiable. If he refuses to change jobs and remove himself from her than i would be spelling it out to him that Divorce is inevitable.


There's 3 to pay child support to - the other two "children" are adults and have lost their respect for him. He is willing to do a postnup... we are in the process of doing that. 

Yeah, I agree about the job. I have made that very clear. He is upper management, so not as easy to just find a new job. It hurts me every day that he is there. He has sent out is resume... he is looking. Finding a similar job is limited, so all of this is telling as to how committed he is to R. 

Ticks me off that he affected my and the kids' futures with his selfish choices. However, he IS trying to make it right... but it is still very hard to not be frustrated and angry over that. I am taking more of risk with him than he is with me. That's pretty evident.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Today is just a bad day. Clearly, I'm a confused puppy... There's probably nothing to be said to this post that hasn't already been. It's just part of this journey.


I'm sorry that you're feeling like this at the moment but know that it is normal, not being okay is fine and understandable with what you've gone through.



kc2 said:


> Okay, all that said, I just don't get this: How will I ever be "attractive" enough to him now when I come with the same stress and busy-ness that he wanted to avoid for so many years? Now he says that he will handle it. Now he is willing to do anything to save our marriage. Now he doesn't want to have anything to do with her. (and he is DOING all those things to show that) BUT... I really don't have anything more or different to offer him. I don't. What I had wasn't enough. I accepted him as he was all these years. I found ways to love him, regardless.
> 
> I won't ever be able to give him that dopamine high he got with her. It's not that I view her as "better" than me, um, she's clearly not. But, like you said, she had the "illicit" part that I won't ever have. I don't get it. I'm a hardworking, faithful Christian wife/mom who has no reservations in the bedroom - I thought I'd be a husband's dream.
> 
> I can see why he could find that EA/PA as a lure - an excitement that is different from his every day - but then, I don't see why... well, not for 6 yrs! Not for stealing part of my life! Not for seeing me and the kids every day! Not for knowing how it would absolutely shatter me. I will NEVER understand that part. I just won't. I need to accept that I won't EVER get a suitable answer on that or get it


His affair was all him, his behaviour and his choices. I know that is hard to reconcile this within yourself. Infidelity basically holds a magnifying glass over any and every insecurity and flaw you think you have. It can damage your self-esteem and sense of self worth, give you doubt and pause and have you scrutinize all aspects of your person and being.

Again, his affair was due to his character and his lacking.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Was this his first affair?


I had gone through names within his work email when I first answered you... but your question has haunted me since you posted it. Coupling that with some others who stated that this long of an affair would cause him to start to tire of her. It made me question if he might've needed some other 'new interest' to give him that dopamine high. 

I originally was going to look to see if there were ANY emails from him to me during this time that said, "I love you." (I deleted most of my correspondence with my H over the years.) Anyhow, I put in "love" and what came up was an attempt on his part to meet up with a prior co-worker in another city when he was traveling for work a year and a half ago. She ended up saying, "I would've loved to meet up with you, but I will be on vacation during that time..." 

That led me to put "breakfast," "Lunch" and "dinner" in the search engine rather than names to see if he was trying to meet up with anyone else. Among the emails for breakfast was his meeting up and correspondence with a co-worker from a state to which he travels who was in town this last Sept. 

So, then, I went through more emails to find so much more, which I will post in another comment. 

I'm not sure what this means - except that his sin knew no boundaries at all. No, I don't necessarily believe he had an additional EA/PA on the OW and me, but I do believe he enjoyed that "high" of flirting, conversing & meeting up alone with women. (Granted, I think that's cheating, but that's me.) 

I'm just learning more about what I am dealing with him. Just painful.

Thank you for 'haunting' me with that question.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Best way to make the right choices moving forward is by being aware of what you're really dealing with.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Okay... so as I searched through his work emails, I found others that showed approximately WHEN this all started. I was off in my number of years. 

I found an email to his co-worker friend (who is also friends with the OW & OW's BFF, who also works with them and the BFF provided the apartment for them near their work). While traveling, my H emailed his friend and stated, "..are you taking care of my girlfriend and my wife?" He says it was a joke. Regardless, they were involved enough in the start of their friendship to call her that. 

That email was from 2006, which puts this as a 9 YEAR EA/PA. 9 YEARS of my life - just altered. erased. stolen.

There were other emails with his friend referring to the OW as my H's "mistress" in 2007. His friend, I found out, HATES me based upon what my H told him over all these years, calling me names and fueling my H towards the OW. The friend would make comments like, "Has she left you yet?" "She's such a paranoid B___" "Is she still complaining & questioning where you are?" "why do you put up with that?" "You are better off with OW"

I'm not really sure why this hurts me more. I mean if it were 6 yrs vs 9 yrs... does it REALLY matter? My H would have us meet up with his friend & his wife over the years. I had no clue that they were on "Team OW." Everything I said or did was looked at through the filters that my H provided for them about who I was. He lied about me and our relationship... It wasn't a fair fight. 

Yep, they all encouraged my H in this adulterous relationship. Just sickening that NONE of these adults and parents thought, "gee, there are CHILDREN involved who will be damaged & hurt for life when they find this out. You guys should end one relationship before starting another." So stinkin' angry about that!

So, last Friday, the "friend" (who hasn't contacted us since all this came to light), sent a text to my H asking, "how goes it?" My H responded in kind, letting him know that we were working on the marriage, but struggling. Seriously? I lost it. IF he wants to save this marriage, cutting all contact with the OW's friend seems to be a no-brainer. duh. 

Anyhow, I'm just numb over all of this new information. I know that searching his emails more probably isn't the wisest thing - but I wanted to know how much of my life was stolen. I want to know how he interacted with co-workers. I want to know what kind of man he has been.

Just for those who are doing the math, I got unexpectedly pregnant the summer of 2006. Our youngest is an answer to a prayer we didn't know to pray. But now, I understand, that having him caused me to be distracted even more for my H to continue in his EA, then EA/PA. <sighs> I refuse to blame myself for his choices. I was doing my end of this partnership. Could I have done it better? Sure. I wonder what kind of wife/mom I would've been had a come from a place of being secure in his love and not feeling in my gut that he was cheating. I deserved to feel that in my marriage. 

Again, just numb. My H saying that he chooses us now makes me feel like he is saying, "Okay, NOW you are worthy of my attention. NOW you can have my love." yep, I was benched for 9 yrs and now the coach is saying I can play in the game. yippee. Go me. 

I still know that I am the daughter of the Most High King. I have value and worth well beyond what my H ever saw or appreciated. Not making major decisions as of yet, but I am getting stronger each day. 

My H is quite upset about everything, depressed, remorseful, scared about losing us, heart sick over hurting us... Well, I'm not dealing with his feelings right now. I'm a natural motivator, so I would normally be encouraging him...

BUT, alas, I need to worry about me - NOT him. A wise old soul on here keeps reminding me of that.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm confused. Are you still going to try to reconcile with him? After so many years of so many lies? Have you changed your mind? Or even starting to feel your resolve falter?

I confess that this would be well beyond anything my pride would accept.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

Your husband's friend and friend's wife are a**holes, like rat-bastard a**holes. I'm sure your husband has them as friends based on their wretched character. He knew that they'd condone and spur his actions on.

Most people (myself included) hate to be misunderstood and I know there are several levels of why this new development has hit you hard but I'm sure that might be one of them. To know that someone intended you harm and ill-will in their support of what your husband did to you based on what your husband told them about you.

I'd say have your husband write to those rat-bastards that he has treated you extremely poorly and grossly misrepresented you to his friends. That they themselves are a**holes for being complicit in your husband's misdeeds and should have had better moral standing than to encourage a married man in disrespecting his wife and family. Then have him tell them to never contact him again.

I'm glad you're not clambering to look after him. He should be depressed, remorseful and scared about losing you. His feelings are infinitesimal compared to yours. You're a natural caring person and by presenting himself as a sympathetic figure it might allow for the manipulation of your sympathies and feelings towards him.

You're upset because what you've learned is upsetting, actually way beyond upsetting. There are so many aspects to it and a lot to process. Nine may look like an inverted six but they are not the same, nine years is a HUGE difference. When it comes to adulterers there's always more. 'Just friends' means more than just friends, 'one time' is many. Your husband should've been completely honest with you about the extent of everything by now. Any new information will only yield additional fresh hurt.

You were right to search through the emails. You need to know all of it in order to protect yourself, process it all and make an informed decision on who your husband is and what is best for you.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

kc2, 

I've been fairly quiet on this thread but I have been reading along, and I have many, MANY thoughts I'd like to share with you. But since it's getting late and my Dear Hubby is not feeling well I'm going to try to primarily address this latest round of discoveries. 

As I've been reading along, I noticed that it sounds to me as if you and your husband would consider yourselves "Christians" and for now I'm going to address you as if you were believers until you tell me if it's otherwise, okay? 

So here's what strikes me: in most cases I do advocate for a couple to reconcile if they possibly can, but I also realize that the one moral exception that Jesus gave for a divorce was the situation of sexual immorality. In that instance He did not say you HAD TO divorce, but that the loyal spouse had the option to do so morally and that the disloyal spouse was the one who demolish the covenant and did not have that option. 

In your instance, I want you to know that I read every story and understand that there are two sides to every story. My guess would be that if your husband were to write here on TAM that his side would sound significantly different than your side, but for now let's make the assumption that at minimum, what you've written is an honest representation of where YOU are at and what YOU think and feel. Okay? It may not be 100% accurate on his thoughts and feelings but that's alright--we're here for you right now. 

So you two have been married for *15 years*, and you discovered he had been physically cheating on you. You thought it had been an affair for *6 years*, and just recently you looked at his emails and discovered it's actually been *9 years*! This was an affair with someone at work. She is still employed at the company. At this moment he seems to be acting as if he wants to reconcile with you, yet he is also still employed at the company and periodically he does see her at work "for professional reasons." You say he is "saying and doing all the right things," but you feel like you are constantly triggered, feel unsure of yourself and your perceptions, feel like you are full of rage, and desperately do not want to be taken for a fool again. During the affair there was a guy friend/accomplice who approved of the OW, liked her better and said so out loud, and helped enable the affair. Your husband is still "friends" with that person. Finally, your husband wants to take you away for a trip to Hawaii in like a week or two, something he never, ever did during the marriage.

My advice is going to sound REALLY counter-productive and possibly not be very "popular" here on TAM, but nonetheless it is what I really think. 

First, it's only been 3 months or so since you discovered. To my mind it is NATURAL that you'd be flipping out, feel like you are constantly triggered, feel unsure of yourself and your perceptions, feel like you are full of rage, and desperately do not want to be taken for a fool again. What is occurring to you now is roughly akin to a death--the marriage you THOUGHT you had has died. So although it does feel horrible, if nothing else at least take some comfort in knowing that your reaction is pretty natural. 

Second, I'm just going to say it. I don't entirely believe your husband, and here's why. He says pretty this and pretty that and cries crocodile tears, but he has known all along that his affair was longer than 6 years and he never said a word. He also has not quit his job BAM today, and he is also still "friends" with the person who enabled his affair...a person is IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT a friend of the marriage or of you! So if I were in your shoes, I would see this: He is talking but not doing. He is still in daily contact with her. And he still considers someone who actively worked to destroy our marriage and family as a "friend." Not one of those statements says to me "I sincerely want to save our marriage." What it does say is "Holy smoke I got caught and don't want to pay the consequence of my choices."

Third, that being said, people who are loyal spouse often say something to their disloyal spouse like this: "You have ONE CHANCE and one chance only to tell me the whole truth or we're through!" and then they expect their disloyal spouse to just eviscerate themselves and spill their guts... and not forget one thing. Miss kc2, if I demanded that you tell me every single one of your sins and regrets and don't leave out a single detail...and OH YEAH if you tell me something that hurts me I'm going to scream at you... could you do it? 

See, I think that tactic is crazy-making. Yes, I 100% do not endorse or accept "trickle truth" meaning "covering things up that I know are true and acting like part is the full truth." That's just continuing to be dishonest if you ask me! But what I also think is that in real life people tell you more and more and more as they feel safer. Now he's not in a position to require "safety"--I get that--but by the same token it is human nature to relax when you feel safer. So to my mind, rather than expecting 'One Chance and One Chance ONLY'... well that's just not realistic! But what is realistic, I think, is to the expectation to 100% STOP BEING DISHONEST and start being honest. Now here's what I think that would look like: the disloyal spouse stops trying to cover up and avoid and lie and instead lays out all the facts like an outline form: when it started, how it started, etc. The loyal spouse will naturally have questions. As the questions com up, the disloyal answers fully and honestly. Then it would be like filling in the outline more and more. 

Fourth, one of the things that possibly has not occurred to him yet is that "life the way it was" is over. It may not have dawned on him that he can not keep his job... or keep his friend... or keep that cushy position in the church. It slowly sunk into me as I was reconciling more and more with my own Dear Hubby that because of the choices I'd made, what I DESERVED was to be kicked to the curb with nothing and lose my family and home. And I'm not saying he is a worm in the dirt and not a valuable human being, but rather that the consequences of choosing adultery is HARSH!!!! So the fact that I wasn't kicked to the curb was a GIGANTIC gift that I was not owed. And the fact that I didn't lose everything was a GIGANTIC GIFT to which I was not entitled. ... etc. Make sense? 

He probably still thinks of the OW as at least competent in her job... and of the friend as someone with whom he has fond memories! But to demonstrate that he TRULY and SINCERELY understands the depths of the problem, he would have to demonstrate with his actions that anyone who was that much an enemy of the marriage just CAN NOT BE A FRIEND. That is an ENEMY! Right? And thus, in real life you and I may see it as plain as the nose on our face, but it may not have dawned on him yet that one natural consequence of adultery is losing this "friend" who encouraged him to be adulterous! He just can not have friends like that! And same for his job...he HAS TO quit. He MUST. Yes times are hard, and yes it may put financial strain on the marriage as if there isn't enough! But part of the cost of adultery is enduring the depression of being unemployed BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DID. Part of the cost of adultery is possibly having to apply for food stamps to feed the family you were willing to harm and risked breaking up. Part of the natural consequence may be losing some of the "things" you have and downsizing because you threw away the great job to chase a skirt!! And yep...part of the cost of choosing adultery over fidelity is losing the cushy church position and the image of being "the perfect husband and father." It's EMBARRASSING and depressing....and part of the reason people sometimes commit adultery is because they don't want to feel that way and they "run away" to avoid it. Now the piper has to be paid. 

And yet, kc2, it is not your "job" to enforce these consequences. If it were, you'd be a controlling witch. Nope what you want to see is HIM enduring and enforcing these natural consequences upon himself. Yes, you'll feel some financial pinch, but people have been laid off and their marriage endured so don't let that pinch fool you and don't use that to stop him from doing the right thing. Remember the second thing I said, that I don't entirely believe him? When you see him doing these things ON HIS OWN... doing, not saying...then you'll know that he means it and he is being honest. When that happens, THEN your "job" if you choose to accept it, will be to verify his honest and to return honesty and openness to him. 

From a practical point of view, you will probably want to find an anger management support group or IC or something to deal with your anger, because it's not who you are. If you allow that anger to remain, it will fester and poison you and you will become a bitter, spiteful kind of woman--and I doubt that's the kind of woman you want to be within your heart. 

I would also recommend that Hawaii is probably TOO BIG of a "trip" right now. The two of you are worlds apart and lies are still being discovered. It sounds as if there are still Love Extinguishers on both sides, and a trip where you are forced to be together far away from anything and anyone you know is just too much. I would recommend that you see if you can either return the tickets or put them off for 6 months. Then I'd say both of you need to stop Love Extinguishers (Love Extinguishers–What Are They? | AFFAIRCARE) and work on doing things nearer to home that are mutual enjoyments... not "dating each other" (I think it's too early for that) but more like this: you both enjoy baseball so you go to some ball games together just for fun... you both enjoy car shows or dog shows or tennis .... etc. The idea is that right now your thoughts and memories of him are HUBBY=PAIN and you want to make new thoughts and memories that would associate your husband with fun. So in the PRESENT... in the here and now... do some things together like you would with a friend from college whom you just "like". Talk like a friend, not lover or husband/wife. Act like you care. Make sense? The lover and husband/wife part may come later if you can get to be friends and "friendly" again now. 

Okay I'll write more tomorrow!


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

kc2 said:


> Okay... so as I searched through his work emails, I found others that showed approximately WHEN this all started. I was off in my number of years.
> 
> I found an email to his co-worker friend (who is also friends with the OW & OW's BFF, who also works with them and the BFF provided the apartment for them near their work). While traveling, my H emailed his friend and stated, "..are you taking care of my girlfriend and my wife?" He says it was a joke. Regardless, they were involved enough in the start of their friendship to call her that.
> 
> ...



Why on earth would you waste one more second on any of this? I can't read this anymore. I know you are shocked and hurt but I hope you can get a firm grip soon and stop torturing yourself.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

15-10=5. Basically, you are now wondering if he ever wanted to marry you. Sorry, 5 years is just the beginning of a marriage and that's why it hurts more. 
Aslo no:


> But now, I understand, that having him caused me to be distracted even more for my H to continue in his EA, then EA/PA. <sighs> I refuse to blame myself for his choices. I was doing my end of this partnership. Could I have done it better? Sure. I wonder what kind of wife/mom I would've been had a come from a place of being secure in his love and not feeling in my gut that he was cheating. I deserved to feel that in my marriage.


No. I dislike when people use the word "better" in this instance. I prefer different because many people do the best they can and it doesn't always turn out right. It doesn't mean you could do anything "better" or you did anything wrong, you may not have been properly equipped to handle a certain situation. 

You were a new parent and instead of helping he laid all the work at your feet. You did what you could and any man that feels neglected should open his damn mouth. It is called communication for a reason. He sure took time to express his frustrations to his "mistress"and crappy friend. He should have afforded you, at the very least, the same level of respect. More so, to you, because you are his wife and the mother of his child.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

It appears that he's only admitting to what you can prove. There is probably so much more. Trickle truth at it's finest.


----------



## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

Reading messages between a WS and an enabler insulting the BS is gut wrenching. 

For me it was worse than the affair because the affair was them being selfish and seeking their own gratification. 

Lies and insults are personal attacks and make the BS the enemy. For me it was just as bad a betrayal. 

That is how a WS justifies their behaviour. But i really don't understand the enabler and why they do it.


----------



## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Kc2:

I just discovered your thread today. Sadly, welcome to "the club no one wants to be in"

Our stories have many similarities. I sent you a Private Message. Take a look. 

Meanwhile, take a deep breath...


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> ...
> As I've been reading along, I noticed that it sounds to me as if you and your husband would consider yourselves "Christians" and for now I'm going to address you as if you were believers until you tell me if it's otherwise, okay?


Yes, I am a believer. I thought my husband was. I can go into more detail in a private message. 


Affaircare said:


> Second, I'm just going to say it. I don't entirely believe your husband, and here's why... He is talking but not doing. He is still in daily contact with her. And he still considers someone who actively worked to destroy our marriage and family as a "friend." Not one of those statements says to me "I sincerely want to save our marriage." What it does say is "Holy smoke I got caught and don't want to pay the consequence of my choices."


I have learned on here to correct something is often taken as rugsweeping.  Because I truly do care about your input (I visited Affair Care first, then found TAM...) I AM going to correct two things so there is clarity in your valued assessment. 

He does not have daily contact. They work on separate floors. Since his break up email to her and the threatening letter I sent stating I would expose her to her extended family, they have had about 4 work related emails. They have seen each other a couple times, but they don't look at each other and don't speak. (He calls me and tells me right away) His admin even asked why OW doesn't come around anymore to say hi... 

Okay, his 'friend' and my H haven't talked since shortly after d-day. This text was the first time. He could've just deleted the text. He didn't. 

Our MC really did well expressing why the "friend" email exchanges were such a violation tonight. I think he understands that now. geez. I had to give up and lose a lot in this, regardless of R or D. Losing a "friend" like him, isn't that much of a sacrifice. We'll see.



Affaircare said:


> ...So to my mind, rather than expecting 'One Chance and One Chance ONLY'... well that's just not realistic! But what is realistic, I think, is to the expectation to 100% STOP BEING DISHONEST and start being honest...


To this end, I do think my H is trying to be honest. He has answered everything I asked, and I've asked a lot. Granted, he struggles with the answers, but he does TRY to remember. It's just a LOT of years to cover. Personally, I think with REAL life, there's concrete aspects that ground our mental time-lines (births, jobs, homes, surgeries, etc.) With an EA/PA, it is fantasy and limited in true monumental experiences. I mean, lunches, email exchanges, sex, token gifts start to just meld together. (?)

He has had a hard time with WHEN this started. He doesn't really know when the friendship became an EA. So looking back this many years, yeah... hard for him to identify it. 



Affaircare said:


> ... He just can not have friends like that! And same for his job...he HAS TO quit. He MUST.


Yes, he is more than willing to change jobs. THIS has been the problem since my very first post. HOW does he quit his job and plan to move out of this city when I am not giving him the security that I can R?? I understand his problem. I honestly think he would move us ASAP, IF I were on board with him. I do believe that he WANTS this marriage now. He is DOING so much of what he needs to be doing.

It's ME that is holding up that process. Yes, it is almost impossible for me to heal from this living here, and yet, I don't want to move the kids unnecessarily. So this is what I figured: If we are R, then we need to move, start over. If we are to D, then we stay here and the triggers, hopefully, would subside since my H won't affect me as much. Sounds wise, but the application of that is a whole different thing:

HOW can I be on board to R when I don't even know this man? I don't know if this change in him is real. AND, even IF, this change is real, I don't know that I can even get passed this betrayal - especially not this last round of info. ugh. 

Also, I don't want him to screw up financially, if I can't R. That only hurts my children and me.



Affaircare said:


> From a practical point of view, you will probably want to find an anger management support group or IC or something to deal with your anger, because it's not who you are.


I have an awesome IC, encouraging MC, and I also go to an anxiety/depression group. I also have a few supportive & praying close friends who are just there for me for "whatever" I decide. 




Affaircare said:


> I would also recommend that Hawaii is probably TOO BIG of a "trip" right now.


He suggested Hawaii back during January. D-day was Thanksgiving Day (won't THAT be a fun d-day anniv in the years to come?!? ugh). We were in what I now know is hysterical bonding... I had hoped that by March I would be able to have more clarity. The tickets were purchased on frequent flyer miles so not exchangeable or refundable - unless I find another two people out there with our names. 

This is how I'm approaching Hawaii: I am going with a guy I kinda know, and he can carry my luggage. We are going to be doing a lot of fun things - zip line, horseback riding, double hull canoe, etc. I will be able to find time, alone, on the beach. I will be away from almost every trigger - well, except him. My adult kiddos are taking care of the younger ones, so I don't have to worry about any of them. He really is an excellent lover, so if I want to have great sex, I can. If not, I just won't. We will be spending time together. We are taking our workbooks to work on our friendship - basically trying to get to know each other now. 

In the end, we might even find that we don't even like each other anyhow. Or maybe we do. Either way, our lives are connected forever due to our children. It would be healthy for us to be able to be communicate, regardless.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kc2 said:


> Yes, he is more than willing to change jobs. THIS has been the problem since my very first post. HOW does he quit his job and plan to move out of this city when I am not giving him the security that I can R?? I understand his problem. I honestly think he would move us ASAP, IF I were on board with him. I do believe that he WANTS this marriage now. He is DOING so much of what he needs to be doing.


Conversely, how can YOU be reasonably expected to fully commit to reconciliation until he first takes that step? One of you needs to take that first leap of faith; given both his transgressions AND the very lengthy period of time spent committing them, _why shouldn't it be him?_

You've displayed both grace and poise throughout this entire ordeal. It's his turn now.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

jin said:


> Reading messages between a WS and an enabler insulting the BS is gut wrenching.
> 
> For me it was worse than the affair because the affair was them being selfish and seeking their own gratification.
> 
> ...


Thank you. You expressed EXACTLY how I feel about it. Especially since I sat down to many dinners with him and his wife over the years without knowing all of this. It was a violation on another level and just plain cruel.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Conversely, how can YOU be reasonably expected to fully commit to reconciliation until he first takes that step? One of you needs to take that first leap of faith; given both his transgressions AND the very lengthy period of time spent committing them, _why shouldn't it be him?_
> 
> You've displayed both grace and poise throughout this entire ordeal. It's his turn now.


hmm... I see your point regarding that leap of faith. 

I think I was just trying to protect me and the kids financially. But, I can also see how that is actually paralyzing me. yep, I'll have to think about your post a little more to process that.

grace & poise? surely, you jest... I have been swearing like a sailor and losing it more than I care to share. Not a lot of grace & poise in that. hehe


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kc2 said:


> hmm... I see your point regarding that leap of faith.
> 
> I think I was just trying to protect me and the kids financially. But, I can also see how that is actually paralyzing me. yep, I'll have to think about your post a little more to process that.
> 
> grace & poise? surely, you jest... I have been swearing like a sailor and losing it more than I care to share. Not a lot of grace & poise in that. hehe


LOL. Well... here, anyway.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> I'm confused. Are you still going to try to reconcile with him? After so many years of so many lies? Have you changed your mind? Or even starting to feel your resolve falter?
> 
> I confess that this would be well beyond anything my pride would accept.


Yep, I totally understand that, but I can't make choices based on my pride. Clearly, my pride was destroyed with all of this. My husband chose to burn everything we ever created or built on this altar of his EA/PA and other choices. Everything--The good, the bad, and the ugly, including any pride I had. I'm standing in a heap of rubble. It's quite liberating, actually. It explains a LOT about my marriage. 

My dignity (the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect)... now that's part of my driving force right now. THAT is what want to protect and keep intact. 

I think I mentioned that we homeschool. I don't discount public school & my oldest son graduated from public school, but there are a few reasons we choose to homeschool currently: 

My one twin is wicked smart. He is in 7th grade doing Alg 2 and that is VERY EASY for him. He's writing a book. He could start classes at our community college this Fall as a 13 yr old. Public school here won't bus him to the high school for higher classes. They teach to age, not ability. 

My youngest has severe food allergies (egg, milk, peanut and apple...) and the thought of him being away from his meds or Epi makes me concerned. 

So, just to have a D, I will need to completely uproot them. It seems a bit selfish and un-serving to them if I do that as a knee-jerk, ticked off and hurt reaction. (I know they are resilient and will be fine, regardless. I am a product of a divorce as well.) However, they need a mom, who is operating from a position of strength and not just being emotional, making these life-altering decisions that affect them greatly. I am not concerned about getting a job - I worked prior... I know what I'm capable of doing. I'm marketable and interview well. I still have that all in me.  

Unlike my husband and that adulterous mom of two, I don't just flippantly make decisions that affect others. Please don't view me as weak. One of the most powerful things people can do is recognize their limitations, know when to play their ace cards, and to look for opportunities to learn & grow in every circumstance. 

I believe I will get where I need to be, AD. I appreciate your consistent wisdom & concern.


----------



## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

*kc2*, I think the cruelty towards you by your husband and his friends is awful. I mean it's one thing to carry on an affair but to be horrible to your spouse through its course is truly awful. It's like their clique was a bunch of mean girls.

There are unfaithful spouses out there who's wives/husbands are content and happy in their blissful ignorance of any adultery because, even though their husband or wife is being unfaithful, they're not left lacking in terms of love, affection and kindness.

I think this as well:


kc2 said:


> To this end, I do think my H is trying to be honest. He has answered everything I asked, and I've asked a lot. Granted, he struggles with the answers, but he does TRY to remember. It's just a LOT of years to cover. Personally, I think with REAL life, there's concrete aspects that ground our mental time-lines (births, jobs, homes, surgeries, etc.) With an EA/PA, it is fantasy and limited in true monumental experiences. I mean, lunches, email exchanges, sex, token gifts start to just meld together. (?)


There's nothing to root it in reality. It's like why we tend to forget dreams.

He should make the effort to try harder in letting you know as much of it as possible. Tough as it may be, it's better to have it all at once to begin to process and work through than to have snippets of information emerge over time that'll only serve to set you back and hit 'refresh' on your ordeal.

I think Hawaii will be awesome, travelling rocks. It's something to look forward to and get excited about. A change in environment and scenery can do wonders and I can't think of anyone more deserving and in need of a getaway.

I think it'll be good for you to just have a break for a while, you'll enjoy it and have fun and you'll have time with your husband to just be, see and interact.



kc2 said:


> Please don't view me as weak..


You're defintely not weak.


----------



## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

However, they need a mom, who is operating from a position of strength and not just being emotional, making these life-altering decisions that affect them greatly. I am not concerned about getting a job - I worked prior... I know what I'm capable of doing. I'm marketable and interview well. I still have that all in me. 

:smthumbup:
_*good for you! You clearly have your priorities in order !*_


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Question... are the older kids yours, his, or both of yours?

Apologies if you've already answered this.


----------



## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Question... are the older kids yours, his, or both of yours?
> 
> Apologies if you've already answered this.


Technically, mine. He married me when they were 8 and 5, but for all intensive purposes, they are ours. 

I was married young in my first marriage (20 and he was 18). Lasted 4 yrs. He was military & left us when the kids were 3yrs and 1yr. I was on my own for 4 yrs before I met and married my H. My ex has completely damaged his relationship w my daughter over the years and barely has one with my son. Their only source of a dad has been my H. 

That's what is so hard for my daughter. When H married us, he promised me that he wouldn't hurt my kids, especially my daughter. He knew how I felt about cheating. He knew that I never wanted to divorce.

My H claimed he wanted to be their dad. My H and his OW, being the kind of mom she is, helped to break my daughter's heart, again. 

A few yrs after the twins came, I think he was frustrated with family life and the stresses therein. Yes, there was a lot of stress in those first years: new house, new job for him, surgeries for both of us, failed pregnancies, ectopic pregnancy, quit my job and started subbing with the school district, hard twin pregnancy... I thought we were handling things. I just thought we were in a hard season of life with busy-ness.

We had NORMAL arguments. We are both strong-willed people. I was NOT perfect, but I certainly didn't deserve this. 

I find it ironic that he would complain about my ex's treatment of the kids WHILE he was having his adulterous affair!


----------

