# Would you want to know?



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don't want to clutter another thread with this but given a specific scenario where your spouse had lost control and had an ONS, would you want to know about it?

The main prerequisite is that it's a one time thing only (*not* serial cheating or affair) and your marriage will go on 'happily ever after', with both 100% committed to the marriage.

I see the last poll regarding something similar was done 8 years ago.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-you-confess-one-night-stand-your-spouse.html

However the other poll is about 'should you confess', this one is about 'wanting to know'.

EDIT: this is a hypothetical question about your preference (knowing vs not knowing, all else being equal, given the specific prerequisites). It is not about a moral judgement on a situation that you may or may not consider wrong.

EDIT 2: another pre requisite is that there is always a reasonably high chance that the partner you pick may end up cheating. That chance is close to 50% in the real world that one of the partners will end up cheating.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Hypothetically, of course, I'd say I could live without knowing. My main concern would be STDs.

If he volunteered the information, I'd definitely not want all the details. I don't need that in my head. And I could forgive. I'd want to sort out the 'why'.

If it was a habitual thing, then that'd be a dealbreaker. Addiction isn't something I want in my life.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

I want to know if she had one. But I"m not willing to tell her I had one. This has not been true in previous relatoinships. There's something not right in my current relationship.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Thats a toughie. 

I voted no. I wouldn't want to know. 

Different stages in my relationship, I would vote in different ways. We aren't aren't as monogamous as many, contemplated swinging, but decided we are more or less exhibitionists. I don't mind if he teases and flirts with other women, and have offered him hall passes before. 

Like someone said - they would want to know "why" - for the most part, we as a couple have already talked about all of the whys. 

So in that light? I would say, yeah - tell me! Because I might even enjoy hearing about it. *But* not telling me is way less complicated, and I might just prefer not wade into the muck. 

So in the end, I voted no, because its answer I would put less qualifications on.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I put yes, but for different reasons from some I think. I would not be badly bothered, but would like to know why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something we could fix.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

I'm female, been with my husband for 12 years, and voted that I would want to know, mostly because I would want to make sure there were levels of protection taken to prevent any health risks. But also just simply because I'm the inquisitive type and am comfortable enough with my level of trust and commitment that it would be more a thing of amusement and curiosity as to how it happened and why it happened. It would likely turn into a joke for us to be honest hahaha


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Yes I would want to know, so the OM could be hunted down and made to pay, same for an OW if that were the case. 

I suspect that my Ws mode is to have an EA followed by a ONS type PA of some description, the guilt and shame of which ends things.

Tamat


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> Yes I would want to know, so the OM could be hunted down and made to pay, same for an OW if that were the case.


How would you be certain that the OM or OW even knew that your spouse was a cheater? What would you do to make your spouse pay? Aren't they the one that betrayed you?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I shouldnthave said:


> TAMAT said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I would want to know, so the OM could be hunted down and made to pay, same for an OW if that were the case.
> ...


Indeed. I've never understood why people want to burn the OM/OW more than their own spouse. Its always seemed so backwards to me, but this is pretty common.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't know if I would want to know or not. I believe in honesty and transparency in a committed relationship, but I think it would devastate me, even if it wasn't an ongoing affair, and knowing would irrevocably change the relationship. They do say that ignorance is bliss.

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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes, I would want to know. Why? Because I want to have the information I need to make an informed choice about my relationship. Always. I'd want to know if my partner had a ONS, because I'd want to end the relationship immediately. I apparently used up all the grace I might once have had regarding infidelity of any type on my ex-husband. It's simply an immediate and final deal-breaker for me now. 

Also, in my experience, ONS's are a bit like chips, in that many people really can't seem to stop at just one. And that seems especially true for those who get away with one. In the absence of concrete negative consequences, a lot of people just tend to repeat the same behaviors later.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'd want to know.

However, I can understand why wanting to know/should we confess would be a tough subject if I was cheating.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

In a perfect ONS I would not want to know, but that is a lie. ONS are never isolated one time things. It is a symptom of something missing either in the relationship or with the WS...sigh. So not wanting to know is simply putting you head in the sand. Terrible coping mechanism, right there with rug sweeping IMO.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I don't want to clutter another thread with this but given a specific scenario where your spouse had lost control and had an ONS, would you want to know about it?
> 
> The main prerequisite is that it's a one time thing only (*not* serial cheating or affair) and your marriage will go on 'happily ever after', with both 100% committed to the marriage.


The trouble with that premise is the presumption of it being likely to remain one off only behaviour.

If you can do it once, you can certainly do it again. And according to a number of studies on sexual fidelity, it is likely one will continue to do it again and to other partners (if they have them) having cheated once.



Although I have never cheated on any of my sexual partners. When divorced I had no problem having sex with one woman, who I had just met minutes through hours before. Then having sex with another woman who I had also just met an hour or two after I had sex with the other woman.

Having started most of my sexual relationships, following a woman asking me to have sex with them shortly after meeting them. Or having them ask me out then asking me to have sex with them again shortly after meeting or dating them. I have found it easy to have sex with women in very short order.

Plus for the ones where it was once and done (where I was asking or they were), of whom I can't remember their names and barely knew them. Yet that didn't stop us having at it at their place, in a motel, in a corner of a nightclub, on a dance floor, on a car, in a park, in an alley, at parties in a room alone or in a room with others etc.



Since it is can be so ridiculously easy to have one-night stands, without the compulsion to keep in any sort of touch (because you both were in it just for the raw sex). It would be far easier to cheat on a sexual partner doing it that way, without the risk of emotional attachment that would become a problem as time wore on.

Personally if I were going to cheat on anyone, I would find the one-night stand model to be the easiest way for me to play. Plus knowing myself I am certain if I were to cheat that way once, I would have little to no qualms about going there again, over and over whenever I so desired.

Which is exactly why I have always said no thanks, through the multiple occasions when I have been explicitly offered no strings attached sex by other women and even some men (they're not my thing yet some have expressed their interest) that I have met or known.

So not cheating for me is a conscious choice, that I choose because it is poor form to do that to another person.



Incidentally and tied back to a discussion which informs this question. If I were partnered with someone in a nominally sexually exclusive relationship. Where they told me if I couldn't help myself and had sex with someone else as a mistake or as a once off, they wouldn't want me to tell them about it (as per @inmyprime).

I would think that they expected me to cheat on them at some point (so would think they have low expectations of me). And would consider their not wanting to know an indication that they are likely to look the other way if I started cheating.

I would also consider the offering of such a proposition to be potentially suspect, since they might be coming at it from the premise of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Plus I would also consider the not wanting to know if I did it, implicit permission to have sex with others whenever I liked, as I liked, as long as I didn't embarrass or upset them by ever telling them about it or not being discreet enough.

I would also believe, given what I would consider to be implicit permission to do so. That I would not be cheating on my sexual partner at all, if I were to have sex with others and never told them about it.

At the end of the day there are many people who would view this the same as I do, so for those who would offer such a thing like the OP and his wife. They would do well to be cognisant of the fact they do so at their peril, if they want to have a sexually faithful partner. That said since they wouldn't want to know as long as the wheels don't fall off, I have no doubt they could labour under the delusion of sexual fidelity (absent such fidelity) interminably.



As for wanting to know, I would want to know because I prefer to have more information rather than less, when it comes to making informed decisions as to my consent and participation in a sexual relationship. Plus I don't ascribe to the premise that people ought to be protected from the truth lest they get upset, regardless of whatever that truth may be.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

My definition of love includes fidelity. There is no grey area. I love my mother, I love my children, I love my dog. My love for my STBH is not the same. It is a everything love and I expect the same.

If he thinks he can have a ONS, and take that secret to the grave, he is not the man for me. I can handle a ONS, just like I can handle a divorce.

Whatever your preference, it is never a good thing to let your SO know that if they stray, they should keep it to themselves. While that is not a permission to cheat, it is permission to lie.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

There is no ‘trouble’ with the premise: the premise is what it is and the poll questions are asked within that premise. I don’t want to have the poll results skewed by discussing the actual premise, the implications of the premise or the morals of cheating: the premise is what it is.

And given that it clearly happens quite frequently in real life (people cheat once, and then don’t ever do it again), it is obviously not an unrealistic premise but a statistically significant occurrence and therefore a fact (whenever it occurs, over the course of a marriage).

As to how likely this premise is, is a question for another thread.

As real life shows, if it happened zero times, it can happen one time. And it can also remain one time. Of course it can ALSO happen two or 10 or 100 times after that one time, but that would not be the premise of the poll questions.

There is no option for the poll question whether you think it will happen again and again.

And finally, these poll questions are also not about giving consent. We already discussed ad nauseam that not wanting to know does not equal giving someone consent to cheat.
Not wanting to know is not wanting to know. Everything else is an extrapolation.

Asking the other person not to tell you for reasons of not wanting to live for the rest of their lives in agonising pain, does not mean the person asking is happy for them to go out and cheat on them. If that’s what your take from it is (that not wanting to know equals giving consent) then that’s YOUR personal take and not what the poll questions imply is the case.



Personal said:


> The trouble with that premise is the presumption of it being likely to remain one off only behaviour.
> 
> If you can do it once, you can certainly do it again. And according to a number of studies on sexual fidelity, it is likely one will continue to do it again and to other partners (if they have them) having cheated once.
> 
> ...







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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> If you can do it once, you can certainly do it again. And according to a number of studies on sexual fidelity, it is likely one will continue to do it again and to other partners (if they have them) having cheated once.



Additionally, and according to your reasoning, if you confessed once after cheating and were forgiven, then there’s precedent for this, meaning that the spouse can go on cheating because they know they can be forgiven any time they choose to cheat.
But again, this is a different premise (serial cheating) than the poll questions’ premise.



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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If they are both 100% committed then they wouldn't have cheated. Commitment means being faithful. I dont see how any marriage can be good with such a serious lie and deception, then you have the issues of STD's as well. 

Yes I would definitely want to know so that I can make a decision with the full facts, and also tell the OM or OW's partner/spouse if they have one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Just want to point out, here is what you are risking your spouse go through. Just read it. It's a particularly cruel thing to do, because there is a chance it comes out and by that time they end up feeling like their whole life was a waste or a lie. It's may be too late to change anything.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

I haven't figured out how to quote accurately

Asking the other person not to tell you for reasons of not wanting to live for the rest of their lives in agonising pain. (Part of some ones quote)



Why in the world would you live the rest of your life in agonizing pain?
Really? The rest of your life? I think i am strong enough mentally to drop such unpleasant thoughts.

If you fear that you can not do better than some one who causes you agonizing pain, by all means, ignorance is bliss. 

For the record, most women do not live the rest of their life in agony over the details of your cheating. There is no reason a man has to live his life that way either. Emotional pain must have a end date.








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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> There is no ‘trouble’ with the premise: the premise is what it is and the poll questions are asked within that premise. I don’t want to have the poll results skewed by discussing the actual premise, the implications of the premise or the morals of cheating: the premise is what it is.


I want a unicorn, yet I am not likely to get one.

Which is a lot like the problem you are facing in this discussion and with otherwise putting ones head in the sand with respect to infidelity.

Although you may want something to go exactly the way you like. When it comes to human behaviour, and absent exhaustive caveats and explanations. People will interpret your words variably, absent such caveats and explanations. While even then sometimes with those exhaustive measures in place, they may still come to a different interpretation.

Which is why when some people hear, "if you have sex with someone else by mistake, I wouldn't want to know". They interpret that as an acknowledgement that they are expected to have sex outside of their primary sexual relationship, and that they have permission to do so as long as they don't tell.



inmyprime said:


> And given that it clearly happens quite frequently in real life (people cheat once, and then don’t ever do it again), it is obviously not an unrealistic premise but a statistically significant occurrence and therefore a fact (whenever it occurs, over the course of a marriage).
> 
> As to how likely this premise is, is a question for another thread.
> 
> ...


That's good because there is enough statistical evidence elsewhere, to show that it is more likely than not to occur (which doesn't mean it is certain to occur which is why I used the caveat "likely"). So there's no need to reinvent the wheel anytime soon on that one.



inmyprime said:


> And finally, these poll questions are also not about giving consent. We already discussed ad nauseam that not wanting to know does not equal giving someone consent to cheat.
> Not wanting to know is not wanting to know. Everything else is an extrapolation.


Of course sexual infidelity, even when it occurs in only one instance as per your premise is all about informed consent.

Of which that act itself is at its core, an act that removes consent from the other sexual partner. Since absent being informed, one simply cannot have informed consent.

Although you may want to stick your head in the sand over this, it seems that most people who are thus far responding to your poll seem to feel otherwise.



inmyprime said:


> Asking the other person not to tell you for reasons of not wanting to live for the rest of their lives in agonising pain, does not mean the person asking is happy for them to go out and cheat on them. If that’s what your take from it is (that not wanting to know equals giving consent) then that’s YOUR personal take and not what the poll questions imply is the case.


I have made no claims that a spouse making such statements would be happy about being cheated upon.

Yet I am telling you from experience, that as a man who has easily had one-night stands with different women. Plus despite having never cheated on any of my sexual partners, I have quite readily had sex with some married women when I was divorced, because they asked for it and I was up for it. I can assure you that from actual experience, I know a fair bit about what I am talking about.

Plus although you may be convinced that not wanting to know doesn't provide consent. I am sharing with you the fact that for many people like myself, and plenty of others (some of whom I have been with), that they really do think that not wanting to know and being told that, provides implicit (acknowledging it isn't explicit) permission, to have sex outside of their primary sexual relationship.

For the record my wife also agrees with me, that she would also consider your premise as informed by reading your other posts on this. As offering her carte blanche permission to have sex with others if she were in a relationship with you.

As to agonising pain really? It's not the Spanish Inquisition!

Give it some time and or some resilience, and speaking from experience it is possible to get over it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TheBohannons said:


> Why in the world would you live the rest of your life in agonizing pain?
> Really? The rest of your life? I think i am strong enough mentally to drop such unpleasant thoughts.


Yep most people are plenty strong enough, it's only a limited few who lack the coping skills. And with those that can't cope they're just as likely to come unstuck, through something else along the way.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Foremostly, I believe in unfettered honesty, both ways!

I would want her to be honest and truthful enough to confide in me, and I in her!

After all, isn't that what true love should really be all about?*


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I have no intention of 'wanting things to go the way I like' in terms of the poll results at all.
I am interested in the results purely from an academic point of view on TAM now, compared with 2008 (where interestingly less than 50% recommended to confess after an ONS. The results of the 2008 poll changed today because people from 2018 now added votes to that poll) and find it interesting to see the big difference.

I have already made up my mind about this subject and unless I come to some kind of epiphany (which I haven't; most of the contra arguments from you and a few others - especially the ones that repeat that 'truth must in all circumstances and at any expense be put above betrayed spouse's needs' or that by asking someone not to tell you will somehow encourage the other spouse to cheat or that it makes you have your head in the sand... - are all arguments that I already thought about and dismissed them as being uninformed and void of meaning for myself and my personal situation. 

The rest of your post is again mostly irrelevant; you having 'tons of one night stands with tons of married women and (almost) married men' has nothing to do with the poll or the premise of the poll but I do congratulate you on this monumental achievement :smile2:

*I have worded the poll very carefully and neutrally, to avoid precisely someone having to insert their own caveats into it and skewing it. If someone wants to explain their thoughts for their decision, this is most welcome but changing or misrepresenting the premise through their lack of comprehension and rewriting what the poll 'means', is not.*




Personal said:


> I want a unicorn, yet I am not likely to get one.
> 
> Which is a lot like the problem you are facing in this discussion and with otherwise putting ones head in the sand with respect to infidelity.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheBohannons said:


> Why in the world would you live the rest of your life in agonizing pain?
> Really? The rest of your life? I think i am strong enough mentally to drop such unpleasant thoughts.


That's provided you stay together and reconcile. Have you not seen the threads that go on for hundreds of pages and span over many years from husbands who choose to reconcile after their wives committed adultery? The mind movies never stop. 
But it is true, others may find it easier to forget/come to terms with it and go on. I don't want to hype it up. But the severity of the pain (and the impact on the marriage) is very real.

Divorcing the cheating spouse and finding someone instead (a route that many people choose too and it's a very valid route) is an entirely different matter and you of course get over it quicker. But you have to give up the spouse, among other things. 

People who have done the latter (such as Personal), presume they have experience or have any knowledge of the former (reconciliation) and assume to speak for everybody when they rewrite the meaning of the poll.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Just want to point out, here is what you are risking your spouse go through. Just read it. It's a particularly cruel thing to do, because there is a chance it comes out and by that time they end up feeling like their whole life was a waste or a lie. It's may be too late to change anything.


Yes of course it's a risk. As are many other risks associated with infidelity (including STDs). The premise of the poll does not include cases where anyone finds out about the ONS immediately or years later (or catches an STD).

It doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it's just not the premise for the questions asked.

*The only variable is the knowing versus not knowing* within the specified parameters.

Has no one else studied philosophy? There are many hypotheticals and in order to think about something deeper or consider various aspects and angles of a situation, those hypotheticals (with some pre requisites) can be helpful. Of course they shouldn't be completely unrealistic otherwise they don't help at all. But there are plenty of ONSs that go unreported/unconfessed and plenty of couples who don't do it more than once and go on to have fulfilling and happy marriages (and don't catch an STD) for this particular hypothetical to be a meaningful exercise.

Disclosure: I have never had an ONS or cheated on my wife and neither has my wife, to the best of our knowledge :smile2: And both are determined to make it the best marriage possible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Thanks to everyone who answered the poll btw and provided their thoughts on this.

My personal opinion on it: I voted that I wouldn't want to know. (My wife was the first one to say that she wouldn't want to know if I ever had a one night stand so that's what originally made me think about it).

Partly, I wouldn't want to give the satisfaction of a confession to the WS (which in my mind would be her simply dumping her guilt onto me in order for her to be 'set free', as someone put it).

The main part is that I don't see why it mattered if the rest of the marriage and rest of my life was a happy, committed and fulfilling one. I can mostly see a negative from knowing: the mind movies will ensure that the marriage won't be any of those things and I would most likely have to leave/divorce and have another chance with someone with exact same likelihood of them ending up cheating on me (which is always a 50/50 chance, according to statistics and in my opinion a mind bogglingly high chance for it to just be an 'aberration').

Having had this discussion with my wife, does not in any way make me _want_ to cheat nor do I feel I am more _likely_ to cheat than before.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I have no intention of 'wanting things to go the way I like' in terms of the poll results at all.


Then you have no reason to rail against what I have posted.




inmyprime said:


> I am interested in the results purely from an academic point of view on TAM now, compared with 2008 (where interestingly less than 50% recommended to confess after an ONS. The results of the 2008 poll changed today because people from 2018 now added votes to that poll) and find it interesting to see the big difference.


The 2008 poll you refer to is asking a different question, with unsurprisingly different reactions.

*Should you confess a one-night stand to your spouse?*

Of which the closest answer that I could find that I would potentially pick, would be "Depends on the severity, length or other factors involved in the A."

Since I consider "No, they're better off not knowing." doesn't work for me since I think they would be better off knowing. Since if I chose to cheat even as a once off one-night stand I wouldn't be inclined to confess for selfish reasons rather than flawed and somewhat misplaced altruistic ones.

So for me if there was a simple No answer I would choose no since if one is going to cheat, they should endeavour to do that successfully and not confess.



inmyprime said:


> I have already made up my mind about this subject and unless I come to some kind of epiphany (which I haven't; most of the contra arguments from you and a few others - especially the ones that repeat that 'truth must in all circumstances and at any expense be put above betrayed spouse's needs' or that asking someone not to tell you will somehow encourage the other spouse to cheat or makes you have your head in the sand... - are all arguments that I already thought about and dismissed them as being uninformed and void of meaning for myself.


I am not promoting the sharing of truth in all circumstances, I think the desire to share truth should be informed by ones perspective and circumstance. Just as I think the desire to want truth, is also coloured by ones perspective and circumstances.



inmyprime said:


> The rest of your post is again mostly irrelevant; you having 'tons of one night stands with tons of married women' has nothing to do with the poll or the premise of the poll but I do congratulate you on this achievement :smile2:


I also choose my words carefully, excepting typographical errors and the like since in this context I can be a lazy editor.

Yet as you do here frequently with my posts and others, you misrepresent what I say with considerable frequency. 



Personal said:


> Yet I am telling you from experience, that as a man who has easily had one-night stands with *different* women. Plus despite having never cheated on any of my sexual partners, I have quite readily had sex with *some* married women when I was divorced, because they asked for it and I was up for it. I can assure you that from actual experience, I know a fair bit about what I am talking about.


For example I used the word "different" to indicate different rather than the same as which does not mean tons or many. While I also chose the word "some" since they weren't many.

Yet here you are again as usual misrepresenting what I have written and claiming I have had 'tons of one night stands with tons of married women' when I haven't done that at all.



inmyprime said:


> I have worded the poll very carefully and neutrally, to avoid precisely someone having to insert their own caveats into it and skewing it. If someone wants to explain their thoughts for their decision, this is most welcome but changing or misrepresenting the premise through their lack of comprehension and rewriting what the poll 'means', is not.


I find it rather ironic that you question my comprehension. When you frequently misrepresent what I and other posters here write, which has also coloured your interaction with others here through various run ins. While ever you continue to misrepresent myself and others here, I will consider your conduct here to be unethical.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> People who have done the latter (such as Personal), presume they have experience or have any knowledge of the former (reconciliation) and assume to speak for everybody when they rewrite the meaning of the poll.


I have never claimed I speak for everybody, in fact at every turn I preface my statements with caveats like; few, some, plenty and many and have never claimed all in any instance.

I also apply caveats like; not likely, unlikely, seldom, may, likely, highly likely, frequently and so on.

So please stop fraudulently claiming I am asserting things that I have never said and am not ever likely to claim.

And on that note like some other posters on here, I am done with you since you are not worth my time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Yes I would want to know, so the OM could be hunted down and made to pay, same for an OW if that were the case.
> 
> I suspect that my Ws mode is to have an EA followed by a ONS type PA of some description, the guilt and shame of which ends things.
> 
> Tamat


If he was an acquaintance, friend or relative that knew she was married, I could agree with the first part.

Back in my partying days, I went to a house party and a very sexy little blonde danced and flirted with me all night. We went to bed together and got woken in the morning by her boyfriend standing over us. I had a hangover and was contrite but emphasized that I did not know. No one mentioned she was taken, least of all her.

The boyfriend was holding on to my shoes as we discussed it and, past a certain point, I stopped caring about his pain and started getting pissed.

I told him I didn't know and that if he didn't hand over my shoes, I would come and take them.

He just about got his ass kicked because he should have put the blame on his girlfriend but tried to act tough with me instead.

My shoes were scuffed but I let it slide because I did have his cute girlfriend all night.

She was at fault, not me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I wouldn't "want" to know, I would have to know.

I have certain requirements for a mate and self discipline, character and honesty are some of them.

I would need to know everything to have the information I deserve to make decisions.

I deserve to have honesty. It seems unfortunate that others don't think they do or aren't strong enough to face it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> Then you have no reason to rail against what I have posted.


I don’t ‘rail’ against anything you post which concerns your own personal circumstances or your own preferences (or in this instance, explanations for your vote). However you are out of your element trying to change and misrepresent the premises of the question I asked in the poll by telling me what I actually must have meant by it and that’s the ONLY part I have a problem with and told you so in this thread.

Both the question and the premise is extremely simple so you can either stick to it or ignore the poll. Or construct your own poll with your own premises. Again, very simple.

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> And on that note like some other posters on here, I am done with you since you are not worth my time.



Happy to hear that. The feeling is very much mutual.




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## Kate-Delv (Mar 30, 2018)

I honestly dont know if I'd want to know.

1. Id want to know because something is wrong

2. Id want to know for std reasons 

But

3. I wouldn't want to know as it would devastate me

4. I dont think the relationship would ever be the same again (trust issues after that)

So i guess im saying "if it was a definite one off accident if you call it and there is no std" then i would not want to know


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> If they are both 100% committed then they wouldn't have cheated.


100% committed is perfection, and no one has that - even if you stay married for a lifetime. (Which I'll point out, neither you nor I have.)

If people were truly this invested in their marriages, we'd never have any problems. People would communicate, people would sacrifice and give, people would put in the actual work that it takes to create a healthy, strong marriage.

This forum wouldn't exist, counselors would be out of business, divorce wouldn't be hovering around 50%, and folks wouldn't be remarrying for the second or third time - or be through with marriage altogether.

Dealing in reality, however, we're human - not machines. We're flawed and unpredictable. 

And I don't need to know every erroneous choice a person makes in order to accept, forgive and move on. And those of you who think you'll ever get an accurate accounting (100%) out of someone are kidding yourselves - no matter how pure the intentions may be.

Unless you're playing _The Truman Show_ and recording every moment of someone's life (which is pretty much what we're heading towards), you're being told the faulty, subjective version of events.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

For someone who has no vested interest in how this poll goes or pricing you're right, you certainly are...determined.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

That should be proving, not pricing lol


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I still believe in honesty. Brutal and complete honesty. I would tell, without a doubt.

And I want to know. However, given my wife’s illness I have learned the only real honesty is what I experience myself. Nothing that happens outside the realm of my senses is real, anyway.

So whatever happens happens. I never ask about what I haven’t seen. As long as the play being acted out before me satisfies me, I am happy.

It’s all just an illusion, anyway.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Yes, I would want to know. Why? Because I want to have the information I need to make an informed choice about my relationship. Always. I'd want to know if my partner had a ONS, because I'd want to end the relationship immediately. I apparently used up all the grace I might once have had regarding infidelity of any type on my ex-husband. It's simply an immediate and final deal-breaker for me now.
> 
> Also, in my experience, ONS's are a bit like chips, in that many people really can't seem to stop at just one. And that seems especially true for those who get away with one. In the absence of concrete negative consequences, a lot of people just tend to repeat the same behaviors later.


Same for me. I would want to know so I could end the relationship immediately. The one night stand would show an egregious lack of self control and poor decision making capability, and I won't be in a relationship with someone who is that reckless and out of control.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course it's a risk. As are many other risks associated with infidelity (including STDs). The premise of the poll does not include cases where anyone finds out about the ONS immediately or years later (or catches an STD).
> 
> It doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it's just not the premise for the questions asked.
> 
> ...


If it is indeed ONLY knowing versus not knowing, with the condition that the ONLY way the betrayed spouse can find out is confession by the wayward spouse, then the actual number of ONS is immaterial. It could be one, it could be 100 and not alter the question as you presented it. The whole twice nothing is still nothing thing.

I would still want to know as I would view the affair not as the issue itself, rather as a symptom and demonstration of the more basic issue of lack of self control, which absolutely could manifest itself in other damaging ways.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

uhtred said:


> why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something we could fix.


"why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something SHE could fix."

fixed that for ya.:wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> If it is indeed ONLY knowing versus not knowing, with the condition that the ONLY way the betrayed spouse can find out is confession by the wayward spouse, then the actual number of ONS is immaterial. It could be one, it could be 100 and not alter the question as you presented it. The whole twice nothing is still nothing thing.



Well I’m still trying to vaguely base it on reality; what is likely to happen when serial cheating occurs is that the WS will not be 100% committed to the marriage ‘forever after’, because they will be too busy with all the cheating...So one time only and never again (plus 100% commitment afterwards) is the pre requisite for this.

There are A LOT of WSs who very much regret what happened and have not ‘reoffended’. There are also a lot of serial cheaters, but I’m not talking about those.
Although in the serial cheating case, I would probably still ask my wife to have the heart to still not tell me about the cheating and simply end it with me. I think it would be less messy and unnecessary to know.

All it mean is that she has found somebody else who is more suitable, ready to move on and that’s basically the end of things.

Not all cheating is in the same bucket for me. (I respect that it’s not the case for others).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course it's a risk. As are many other risks associated with infidelity (including STDs). The premise of the poll does not include cases where anyone finds out about the ONS immediately or years later (or catches an STD).
> 
> It doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it's just not the premise for the questions asked.
> 
> ...


I don't buy the premise of the question. You can't make a moral judgment on something if you eliminate the potential moral consequences of the action. If so we might as well be talking about fairy tales. It like discussions of the morality of video game deaths. No one dies, it's not a real discussion. I get why you don't want to add the very real consequences of what you are advocating for but I won't have that discussion because it's not honest. 

Thing is you don't deal with the worst consequences your spouse does, so you are taking a risk with your spouse suffering the potential consequences. It's not right. Like jumping out of a plane but if you chute doesn't open your spouse dies. Not a truly moral thing to do. My only caveat is if your spouse says they wouldn't want to know, but then again you are a POS for cheating still so there is that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> 100% committed is perfection, and no one has that - even if you stay married for a lifetime. (Which I'll point out, neither you nor I have.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I couldn’t have said it better. For me, people are flawed in some ways (if it’s not cheating, it could be something else). However acknowledging human flaws (up to a point) is not the same as granting someone permission to do despicable things.

Perhaps I’m mistaken in viewing an ONS as a semi-involuntary happenstance but because I know I will never be able to completely eradicate it, no matter how many promises are made to each other, I try to think mostly in terms of how to minimise the damage to myself resulting from it while take my into account human nature. 

Just a personal viewpoint. It’s interesting to know that people look at it from so many different angles, prioritising certain things over others (such as ‘honesty uber alles’ or ‘revenge’).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I don't buy the premise of the question. You can't make a moral judgment on something if you eliminate the potential moral consequences of the action.



I’m not sure I’m following you. Where do I make a moral judgement and what potential moral consequences are you talking about?

You mean there is no retribution for the BS?
What do you see as retribution? Leaving the cheating spouse? Not all people do, some reconcile. I’m talking about those cases. If you argue that everyone should leave after infidelity occurs, then that is further from reality because some people actually reconcile (if they know or find out) and some people go on with their marriages (without knowing in the first place).

In any case, I put my well being above that. (If it’s a one time only). Why is it ‘unbelievable’? 



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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I would want to know, for the respect of honesty of another human being. Also, so I can make informed decisions concerning my life in general. As to the one single focal point of infidelity, I would say yes to knowing as well. STDs, pregnancy and others knowing with me being in the dark is not fun in my eyes. Also, as is generally understood with such matters, we ALL get the gut feeling of betrayal. So while NOT KNOWING might be an option, what am I to do with the "back of my mind" issues. Hardly a level of trust developed there.

On a personal level, I still feel I am missing part of the story, and it does take effect in other parts of our marriage....While I totally support a traditional marriage, these things cheapen it and level a very empty feeling concerning marriage in general.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Well I’m still trying to vaguely base it on reality; what is likely to happen when serial cheating occurs is that the WS will not be 100% committed to the marriage ‘forever after’, because they will be too busy with all the cheating...So one time only and never again (plus 100% commitment afterwards) is the pre requisite for this.
> 
> There are A LOT of WSs who very much regret what happened and have not ‘reoffended’. There are also a lot of serial cheaters, but I’m not talking about those.
> Although in the serial cheating case, I would probably still ask my wife to have the heart to still not tell me about the cheating and simply end it with me. I think it would be less messy and unnecessary to know.
> ...


By not allowing for the chance to be discovered by other means than by disclosure, there is absolutely no difference between 1 and 100 ONS, and you remove any illusion of reality, and place the question squarely and fully into the impossibility realm. By introducing things such as "will not be 100% committed to the marriage", the issue is no longer solely the ONS, be it 1 or 100, and rather a deeper issue of simply different, and likely incompatible behaviour between partners in the marriage, of which an affair is nothing more than an example.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I would always want to know so I can make an informed decision. Failure to disclose this is the same as lying by omission and an automatic deal breaker.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Ishouldnthave wrote, * How would you be certain that the OM or OW even knew that your spouse was a cheater? What would you do to make your spouse pay? Aren't they the one that betrayed you?*

In the case of my W, she is very concerned about the welfare of others and the best way to get back at her is to make the OM or OW suffer through exposure, confrontation or etc. 

W had a bit of a breakdown when I told her I was going to speak with OM1 from 20+ years ago, she is protective of them. 

Tamat


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Nope, I meant what I said. 

If someone is looking outside of the marriage for sex, I think both people have to fix it, or end it. Whatever caused it to happen isn't just going to go away by itself. 







katies said:


> "why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something SHE could fix."
> 
> fixed that for ya.:wink2:


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Nope, I meant what I said.
> 
> If someone is looking outside of the marriage for sex, I think both people have to fix it, or end it. Whatever caused it to happen isn't just going to go away by itself.


really? so it's partly the BS's fault if their spouse looks elsewhere? How can you (more importantly WHY should you) fix something you had no choice in? 

How, exactly, does a BS do that? What is there to fix from their end?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

katies said:


> really? so it's partly the BS's fault if their spouse looks elsewhere? How can you (more importantly WHY should you) fix something you had no choice in?
> 
> How, exactly, does a BS do that? What is there to fix from their end?


While I will never get marriage again (famous last words), if I am in a relationship that is exclusive, I would want to know. 

For a lot of reasons, and since I am in a little different place in life, maybe I feel differently. 

Bottom line for me is, this: If a woman wants me to be exclusive in a relationship with her, well then she had better be exclusive with me. And if it was a forever type relationship a ONS would end it. 

If it was an exclusive R but more casual, then OK, now you do not get my undivided attention. Now you are one of many GF's or FB's.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katies said:


> really? so it's partly the BS's fault if their spouse looks elsewhere? How can you (more importantly WHY should you) fix something you had no choice in?
> 
> How, exactly, does a BS do that? What is there to fix from their end?


Nothing. This is Just typical cheating justification. You made me unhappy so I cheated. It really is Cheater rehtoric 101 and often times you find it’s history rewriting to alleviate guilt once caught. 

And because of this very reason is why I always ask a potential partner if they ever cheated in the past. I always get responses with how do you know they aren’t lying and just saying they never cheated. But this is exactly how I know, Because they can’t help but tell you how it “wasn’t their fault and they were pushed into it” lol


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I agree. I'm just asking these questions of uhtred.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> By not allowing for the chance to be discovered by other means than by disclosure, there is absolutely no difference between 1 and 100 ONS, and you remove any illusion of reality, and place the question squarely and fully into the impossibility realm. By introducing things such as "will not be 100% committed to the marriage", the issue is no longer solely the ONS, be it 1 or 100, and rather a deeper issue of simply different, and likely incompatible behaviour between partners in the marriage, of which an affair is nothing more than an example.



Perhaps there is a misunderstanding: this poll is not supposed to look at what the correct or moral thing to do is, after an ONS takes place. I think everyone agrees that honesty is generally best thing what underpins human interactions. But to me, it would not ALWAYS be better; there are rare instances where I would put my well being above this principle.

I’m just putting forward a personal preference, given a set of circumstances (and polling what other people would prefer, given those circumstances). Not what the ‘objectively correct’ thing to do is.

Increasing the number of ONSs would not really work as it would contradict the ‘being committed’ part, after the ONS. You can’t continue cheating and be committed at the same time. You can have a lapse in judgement once and realise for example what’s important and be for example even more committed afterwards.

I’m still not sure which part you find unrealistic and what would including possibility of discovery do. Yes, if you include that chance, then frequent cheating will magnify that chance exponentially. But then are we discussing what the likelihood is of discovery is? For me, it still stands: i would prefer not to know. If I discover by mistake, then that doesn’t make the cheating better or worse. In my eyes, my partner wouldn’t get extra brownie points for being honest about such an act. Because once I know about it, there will be immediately no brownie points to give. Her motivation for not telling me could be the reason to spare me the pain or it could be something else. I would really not care about the motivation at that point.

I feel like the general feeling is that unless the spouse confesses, she is getting away with something. 
I really don’t feel she does (if she wishes to remain in the marriage). I think she will feel guilty and it will eat away at her. She could channel that guilt into being a better wife for example (instead of telling me) and I would prefer it if she did.

If R happens after the confession (and it frequently does) then not only is she ‘getting away’ with it, she also relieves herself of the guilt. Now I will be holding that **** parcel by knowing about it and forever wondering what they did, what else she didn’t tell me, why she did it and all that crap. No thank you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Nope, I meant what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone is looking outside of the marriage for sex, I think both people have to fix it, or end it. Whatever caused it to happen isn't just going to go away by itself.




Sometimes it’s true but often it’s not the case. IMV, good and rational people sometimes do stupid things, for no apparent reason, when things are otherwise good.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm not married (anymore), but I would absolutely want to know, so I could have divorce papers drawn up ASAP.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> there are rare instances where I would put _*my well being*_ above this principle.


Ah...I think this sheds a bit of light.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Frankly I'm astounded that some people here are saying it wouldn't bother them all that much.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

hardwired said:


> Frankly I'm astounded that some people here are saying it wouldn't bother them all that much.


I do NOT mean this in an unkind way, but I do have to wonder how many people who wouldn't want to know and who think confession is a bad idea have cheated themselves.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

hardwired said:


> Frankly I'm astounded that some people here are saying it wouldn't bother them all that much.


I must've missed those posts. 

Did people say that it wouldn't bother them, or that they didn't want to know? There's a _huge_ difference.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Rowan said:


> Yes, I would want to know. Why? Because I want to have the information I need to make an informed choice about my relationship. Always. I'd want to know if my partner had a ONS, because I'd want to end the relationship immediately. I apparently used up all the grace I might once have had regarding infidelity of any type on my ex-husband. It's simply an immediate and final deal-breaker for me now.
> 
> Also, in my experience, ONS's are a bit like chips, in that many people really can't seem to stop at just one. And that seems especially true for those who get away with one. In the absence of concrete negative consequences, a lot of people just tend to repeat the same behaviors later.


This.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Personal said:


> The trouble with that premise is the presumption of it being likely to remain one off only behaviour.
> 
> If you can do it once, you can certainly do it again. And according to a number of studies on sexual fidelity, it is likely one will continue to do it again and to other partners (if they have them) having cheated once.
> 
> ...


This post gave me the creeps.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

minimalME said:


> I must've missed those posts.
> 
> Did people say that it wouldn't bother them, or that they didn't want to know? There's a _huge_ difference.


Here are a few from page one.



uhtred said:


> I put yes, but for different reasons from some I think. I would not be badly bothered, but would like to know why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something we could fix.





minimalME said:


> Hypothetically, of course, I'd say I could live without knowing. My main concern would be STDs.
> 
> If he volunteered the information, I'd definitely not want all the details. I don't need that in my head. And I could forgive. I'd want to sort out the 'why'.
> 
> If it was a habitual thing, then that'd be a dealbreaker. Addiction isn't something I want in my life.





I shouldnthave said:


> Thats a toughie.
> 
> 
> So in that light? I would say, yeah - tell me! Because I might even enjoy hearing about it. [





ButWeAreStrange said:


> I'm female, been with my husband for 12 years, and voted that I would want to know, mostly because I would want to make sure there were levels of protection taken to prevent any health risks. But also just simply because I'm the inquisitive type and am comfortable enough with my level of trust and commitment that it would be more a thing of amusement and curiosity as to how it happened and why it happened. It would likely turn into a joke for us to be honest hahaha


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

hardwired said:


> Here are a few from page one.


Utred was the only one who said he wouldn't be bothered. 

I said I could live without knowing. That's not the same thing.

And the other two who'd enjoy it, well, they're in a league of their own.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Personal said:


> While ever you continue to misrepresent myself and others here, I will consider your conduct here to be unethical.


That's rich.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

sokillme said:


> You can't make a moral judgment on something if you eliminate the potential moral consequences of the action.


Exactly.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I do NOT mean this in an unkind way, but I do have to wonder how many people who wouldn't want to know and who think confession is a bad idea have cheated themselves.


I think you're onto something there.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Utred was the only one who said he wouldn't be bothered.
> 
> I said I could live without knowing. That's not the same thing.
> 
> And the other two who'd enjoy it, well, they're in a league of their own.


Enjoying it is an exaggerated "being OK with it". My point was there's a lot of nonchalance in regards to this. "Live with it", "ok with it", "not bothered by it", "enjoy it".....all of those responses are baffling to me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It can be, but of course isn't necessarily. 

Case 1 I know about. Woman cheated on her husband. He was a useless stay at home lump, sexually very selfish and didn't work, despite having marketable job skills, or do anything around the house. Why didn't she divorce him - well among other reasons she would have needed to pay alimony because she had been supporting him for years. (she is finally getting a divorce)

Case 2: Woman whose husband lost interest in sex with her after they had a kid. Was thinking of divorcing but he kid noticed the stress and begged her not to leave daddy. 


In both cases the BS could have changed their behavior in a way that would have removed the incentive to cheat. 


Obviously many cases ares not so clear cut. In my case, If my wife were to cheat, I would want to understand why to see if my actions had pushed her in that direction. If I were to cheat myself, it would be entirely because of here lack of interest in our sex life. 






katies said:


> really? so it's partly the BS's fault if their spouse looks elsewhere? How can you (more importantly WHY should you) fix something you had no choice in?
> 
> How, exactly, does a BS do that? What is there to fix from their end?


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> It can be, but of course isn't necessarily.
> 
> Case 1 I know about. Woman cheated on her husband. He was a useless stay at home lump, sexually very selfish and didn't work, despite having marketable job skills, or do anything around the house. Why didn't she divorce him - well among other reasons she would have needed to pay alimony because she had been supporting him for years. (she is finally getting a divorce)
> 
> ...


In a nutshell: sometimes people deserve to be cheated on. Ugh. I need a shower.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

hardwired said:


> Enjoying it is an exaggerated "being OK with it". My point was there's a lot of nonchalance in regards to this. "Live with it", "ok with it", "not bothered by it", "enjoy it".....*all of those responses are baffling to me.*


Really? I'm quite conservative in many respects, and although I don't agree with or support most modern behaviors, they don't baffle me at all.

We live in a highly promiscuous society, where for the most part, anything goes. And it's getting worse and worse.

A couple of weeks ago, my boss told me that on his volleyball team, everyone is sleeping with everyone else - married or not.

The young woman who lived next to me, on her last day here, the guy she'd been having sex with for the past four months found out she'd been having sex with someone else at the same time. She started the season with a boyfriend, which ended a few weeks in, so she had 3 different sexual partners within a 5 month period.

At the beginning of the season, the second most discussed topic after skiing, was IUDs. So all of these young women were open to having casual sex with who knows how many people at any given moment.

These sorts of appetites being built up in young people _are not_ just going to disappear when they eventually decide to marry.

The world is a relational mess.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It can be, but of course isn't necessarily.
> 
> Case 1 I know about. Woman cheated on her husband. He was a useless stay at home lump, sexually very selfish and didn't work, despite having marketable job skills, or do anything around the house. Why didn't she divorce him - well among other reasons she would have needed to pay alimony because she had been supporting him for years. (she is finally getting a divorce)
> 
> ...


In both those instances the husbands were certainly part of the bad relationship however 2 wrongs never make a right. Those wives had choices to make: leave, do nothing, cheat, They chose to cheat and that choice and that outcome is always on them.

Also you seem to know these cases from the woman’s side but do you also know the husbands version? I ask because the cheater handbook also does much rewriting of history. After I exposed my x wife’s affair our mutual friends then exposed her history rewrite that she had been telling them. This of course painted me as a monster who lied, Intimidated, controlled, cheated and manipulated her. Course NONE of this was true and once all those mutual friends discovered the real her they dumped her. I would always be cautious hearing the marriage tales of woe from the the cheating spouse.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

hardwired said:


> Enjoying it is an exaggerated "being OK with it". My point was there's a lot of nonchalance in regards to this. "Live with it", "ok with it", "not bothered by it", "enjoy it".....all of those responses are baffling to me.


I wouldn't say that being concerned and wanting to know the risk of STDs would be classified as "nonchalant." As for the rest, honestly in my own case since I was quoted, my husband and I have a very open communication-based relationship and ultimately love each other for being one another's best friend. I would be saddened by the idea that he did not come to me until after the ONS, but the outline of the initial question: 

*where your spouse had lost control and had an ONS, would you want to know about it?

The main prerequisite is that it's a one time thing only (not serial cheating or affair) and your marriage will go on 'happily ever after', with both 100% committed to the marriage.*

clearly states that it is not indicative of anything other than simply losing control in one instance. I would never be willing to throw away an entire marriage over something like that, and, like I said, would be rather interested in figuring out (with my husband) why it happened and be able to laugh about it afterwards. If it were a continuous issue that proved to be a larger behavioral trend on his part, I'd still want him to let me know (for health reasons as well as openness) so that we could work on it together and figure out a mutually beneficial step to take afterwards. 

I would be curious to know if people's Myers-Briggs types are also affecting how they respond. I am an INTJ female and my husband is INTP, so we're both naturally inclined to view things from an analytical perspective instead of rushing to an emotional conclusion right off the bat. The ONS would be intriguing first, concerning second, and finally amusing once we'd thoroughly figured out the who, what, and why since it would have been an aberration from our personalities to be that impulsive as well as duplicitous.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why is it baffling. Some people are happy with open relationships. Others think watching porn in cheating. Why is it surprising that some may not want an open relationship but are not seriously bothered by infidelity? 

I would find cheating less of a problem than discovering an addiction, or criminal action, or stealing (hiding) money, or spying on me. 







hardwired said:


> Enjoying it is an exaggerated "being OK with it". My point was there's a lot of nonchalance in regards to this. "Live with it", "ok with it", "not bothered by it", "enjoy it".....all of those responses are baffling to me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I know one of the husbands and he really is a useless slob. He has the ability to work and earn a good living but simply chose not to do so and let his wife support him. As I said, a divorce would have cost *her* a lot of money in alimony payments. (she waited to long hoping for things to improve).

In the other case I may be hearing a very one-sided story. 








Wolf1974 said:


> In both those instances the husbands were certainly part of the bad relationship however 2 wrongs never make a right. Those wives had choices to make: leave, do nothing, cheat, They chose to cheat and that choice and that outcome is always on them.
> 
> Also you seem to know these cases from the woman’s side but do you also know the husbands version? I ask because the cheater handbook also does much rewriting of history. After I exposed my x wife’s affair our mutual friends then exposed her history rewrite that she had been telling them. This of course painted me as a monster who lied, Intimidated, controlled, cheated and manipulated her. Course NONE of this was true and once all those mutual friends discovered the real her they dumped her. I would always be cautious hearing the marriage tales of woe from the the cheating spouse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I put yes, but for different reasons from some I think. I would not be badly bothered, but would like to know why she was going outside the marriage to see if there was something we could fix.


I found that response interesting. It's almost as if you view your wife like a mysterious rubik's cube and if another man manages to 'put her together' somehow (in the sense that she would suddenly enjoy having sex), the curiosity of wanting to know why or how, would almost trump the pain caused to you by the revelation.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> I would be curious to know if people's Myers-Briggs types are also affecting how they respond. I am an INTJ female and my husband is INTP, so we're both naturally inclined to view things from an analytical perspective instead of rushing to an emotional conclusion right off the bat.


My wife is an INTJ like you, while I am an ENTJ.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Personal said:


> My wife is an INTJ like you, while I am an ENTJ.


I'm an INFJ.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Ah...I think this sheds a bit of light.


Go on, humour me 
What have I done *now* to make you quote one sentence out of context in order to satisfy some imaginary gremlins? :wink2:

I promise you will be the first to know if I ever cheat on my wife


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Go on, humour me
> What have I done *now* to make you quote one sentence out of context in order to satisfy some imaginary gremlins? :wink2:
> 
> I promise you will be the first to know if I ever cheat on my wife


It's not so much you. It's just that I think one of the primary reason a lot of people DON'T confess is self-preservation. They wrap it in a nice bow of so-called unselfishness. But let's be real. They are protecting themselves.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

minimalME said:


> I'm an INFJ.


I'm an ENFP. I do wonder if our personalities have bearing on this.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> It's not so much you. It's just that I think one of the primary reason a lot of people DON'T confess is self-preservation. They wrap it in a nice bow of so-called unselfishness. But let's be real. They are protecting themselves.


Isn't everything about self-preservation? 'Well being' was probably not the right word to use before, but not wanting to know is putting my own self-preservation above spouse's guilt feelings.

How can you make the spouse 'accountable' if you are going to R with them? The only way is to divorce them but more than half can't (or won't) do it. 
In my mind, if I am going to stay together after their ONS, then the only way is for her to live with that guilt and I would prefer not to know about it. 

It wouldn't be ideal. But I am trying to be realistic: for me to actually divorce my wife, break up a family with small kids and lose 7 figure sums to divorce, re organise my whole life and find somebody else with a mind bogglingly high probability of cheating on me again, would take more than one stupid drunken ONS.

At least at this point in my life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I took the online test (wanted to know what these letters all stand for!).

The last bit is a bit disconcerting (Turbulent: 81% )

I am not sure how reliable these tests are; I think people are generally very bad at assessing themselves objectively (not really possible).

YOUR PERSONALITY TYPE IS:
LOGICIAN (INTP-T)

MIND
This trait determines how we interact with our environment.
46% EXTRAVERTED
54% INTROVERTED

ENERGY
This trait shows where we direct our mental energy.
64% INTUITIVE
36% OBSERVANT

NATURE
This trait determines how we make decisions and cope with emotions.
67% THINKING
33% FEELING

TACTICS
This trait reflects our approach to work, planning and decision-making.
36% JUDGING
64% PROSPECTING

IDENTITY
This trait underpins all others, showing how confident we are in our abilities and decisions.
19% ASSERTIVE
81% TURBULENT


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I took the online test (wanted to know what these letters all stand for!).
> 
> The last bit is a bit disconcerting (Turbulent: 81% )
> 
> ...


That definitely sounds like something an INTP type would question hahahaha

I do agree with you about the objectivity involved, but it's fun and interesting to see how well the results match up with what we understand as our approach to things like this particularly interactive poll.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

I was one of the ones with a blasé attitude towards it - said tell me, I may find the details exciting.

As for personality types, I am a ESTJ.

Our relationship isn't totally traditional, neither of us are very bound by social norms and expectations when it comes to relationships.

Non religious, no kids by choice, together for 14 years before officially marrying.

We do things our own way. Would it be the right way for another couple? Probably not, but we are adults and make our own rules for our relationship.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> I was one of the ones with a blasé attitude towards it - said tell me, I may find the details exciting.


It's very exciting - me and wife said same thing. With the only difference that as long as it stays a fantasy.
Of course, given what we decided, we will not know whose story will be a fantasy and who will actually be making a confession...


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

The poll itself is quite enlightening isn't it? 86.89% would want to know.

I am ESFJ-T My husband is ISTJ. 

I actually had a one time sexual encounter...and I confessed....not because i wanted to relieve myself of guilt as some here have assumed...but because i felt it was only fair that my husband could make the choice best for him whether to divorce me or to reconcile. He chose to reconcile...and it has been 35 years since I cheated.

I believe that every couple has to decide what is right for them...and no one else can make that call for them. My husband and I had discussed cheating....he said he would divorce me...I said I would forgive him....but we never discussed whether or not we would want to know. 

I could have most likely taken my secret to my grave...because only two of us knew...the OM and me. But I believed that my husband had the right to know the truth about me...I believed he had the right to choose what was best for him.

When I confessed...I said...I know you have to do what is best for you...and I will ask for nothing. This was not an act of selfishness behavior on my part...this was not about me...this was about him. This was not about my guilt...this was about allowing him to know the truth and choosing what was best for him. I am not asking for approval ...it is too late for us...I cannot change the past. I don't care whether anyone agrees with me or not. 

We all do the best we can at the time...and we all make mistakes throughout life. The last thing we need or want is for people to criticize or judge. My decision to confess...was the right one for us. I believe a relationship has to be built on honesty....even if that means divorce is the best answer where infidelity has occurred.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The poll itself is quite enlightening isn't it? 86.89% would want to know.



Yes it is. So are the reasons: I don’t know if you noticed but most have replied that the reason they would want to know is so that they can divorce the WS. And the reality is that at least half, don’t.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *My* decision to confess...was the right one for *us*.


Yes and my issue has always been that the BS should have a say in that decision. Like I said on the other thread: if my wife took that decision solely into her hands to decide alone what's best for the *both of us* without bothering to understand what might be best for *me*, I would view this attitude as very selfish, only bettered by the infidelity itself.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Yes... I believe most would want to know so they can divorce. So they can decide what is best for them after the infidelity occurs.
Which is exactly what I have been saying.

Committing adultery is the ultimate selfish behavior.... confessing that disgression is the first step in giving the injured partner back the power the adulterer took away. 

You view it as selfish ... I view it as selfless. 

In the end our opinions only matter in our own lives.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Actually a good insight. 

For me the "pain" isn't actually much - I wouldn't be happy about her cheating, but it wouldn't bother me all that much - just the way my brain is wired.

Yes - I am deeply curious as to my wife's sexual behavior. He cheating would be so far outside of my best model of how she thinks, that the knowledge would be valuable. 


I always sided with the devil on the whole apple in Eden thing. Knowledge is worth a high price. 



inmyprime said:


> I found that response interesting. It's almost as if you view your wife like a mysterious rubik's cube and if another man manages to 'put her together' somehow (in the sense that she would suddenly enjoy having sex), the curiosity of wanting to know why or how, would almost trump the pain caused to you by the revelation.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

and your marriage will go on 'happily ever after', with both 100% committed to the marriage


The above is the only reason I voted no. I would likely secretly have kept all the details somewhere in case it needed it for a divorce. That doesn't sound like fully committed and happy ever after
because I would always be thinking "Now I have an easy out if I need it and a hall pass if I want to use it." 


Considering how good our last 20 years have been I would likely look past one indiscretion though.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Really? I'm quite conservative in many respects, and although I don't agree with or support most modern behaviors, they don't baffle me at all.
> 
> We live in a highly promiscuous society, where for the most part, anything goes. And it's getting worse and worse.
> 
> ...


I'm not baffled by people's disgusting, cruel behavior - nothing in that regard surprises me after my dday several years ago.

I'm baffled by the number of responses here, in this thread...the seeming nonchalance of some people's reactions to being the victim of said treachery.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Wolf1974 said:


> In both those instances the husbands were certainly part of the bad relationship however 2 wrongs never make a right. Those wives had choices to make: leave, do nothing, cheat, They chose to cheat and that choice and that outcome is always on them.
> 
> Also you seem to know these cases from the woman’s side but do you also know the husbands version? I ask because the cheater handbook also does much rewriting of history. After I exposed my x wife’s affair our mutual friends then exposed her history rewrite that she had been telling them. This of course painted me as a monster who lied, Intimidated, controlled, cheated and manipulated her. Course NONE of this was true and once all those mutual friends discovered the real her they dumped her. I would always be cautious hearing the marriage tales of woe from the the cheating spouse.


Exactly. Cheaters are liars by definition.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> I wouldn't say that being concerned and wanting to know the risk of STDs would be classified as "nonchalant." As for the rest, honestly in my own case since I was quoted, my husband and I have a very open communication-based relationship and ultimately love each other for being one another's best friend. I would be saddened by the idea that he did not come to me until after the ONS, but the outline of the initial question:
> 
> *where your spouse had lost control and had an ONS, would you want to know about it?
> 
> ...



I never indicated that being concerned and wanting to know the risk of STDs would be classified as "nonchalant."

Also, people don't "lose control" and stick their penis in another woman, or take another man's penis into their vagina. Cheating is a calculated decision. Calculated decisions, by definition, are not "losing control".

The question is ridiculous actually, because marriages affected by infidelity, ONS or not, do not "go on happily ever after". That's a fantasy. Cheating is brutally destructive. That's just a silly notion.

"Laugh about it afterwards"? Have you been cheated on? That's ludicrous. People don't "laugh" about their spouse having sex with someone who isn't them, behind their back. That's delusional. And again, cheating is not "losing control". It's a conscious decision. We're not toddlers. 

"Amusing"? Now _that_ is amusing.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Why is it baffling. Some people are happy with open relationships. Others think watching porn in cheating. Why is it surprising that some may not want an open relationship but are not seriously bothered by infidelity?
> 
> I would find cheating less of a problem than discovering an addiction, or criminal action, or stealing (hiding) money, or spying on me.


I suspect if you polled a massive cross-section of society you would find that the overwhelming majority would not feel the way you do.

That's why there are thousands of threads in the Coping with Infidelity section of this site filled with devastated betrayed spouses. That's why there are books and seminars on it, and therapists/counselors who dedicate their lives to helping people cope with it. Your view on it is not in line with the majority of society.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I know one of the husbands and he really is a useless slob. He has the ability to work and earn a good living but simply chose not to do so and let his wife support him. As I said, a divorce would have cost *her* a lot of money in alimony payments. (she waited to long hoping for things to improve).
> 
> In the other case I may be hearing a very one-sided story.


A lack of money is not and never will be an excuse or justification to cheat on one's spouse. That's ridiculous.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

hardwired said:


> I never indicated that being concerned and wanting to know the risk of STDs would be classified as "nonchalant."
> 
> Also, people don't "lose control" and stick their penis in another woman, or take another man's penis into their vagina. Cheating is a calculated decision. Calculated decisions, by definition, are not "losing control".
> 
> ...


You classified several of the responses that were concerned with STDs as part of the grouping of "nonchalance" you listed. That was the only reason why I pointed that out. 

Yes, the question is ridiculous, but I answered within the context of the poll and did not go beyond it since the question in and of itself is worded in a way that is more indicative of a personality-based response than any moral construct. 

And yes I have been cheated on, and you know what I did? I learned from it. The funny thing about knowledge is that it actually weighs absolutely nothing, and is much more preferable to carrying the weight of anger on my shoulders when that literally does nothing but continue the cycle of pain. 

The point is that everyone has responses to these types of scenarios based on their own understanding of how they operate within the world. Everyone is different and so everyone will approach it from a different position. It does not make the person "delusional" if they choose to handle it in a way that is most beneficial to themselves just because it differentiates from your own. Clearly it is also an instance of differences in how sex is valued to an individual. Sexual value is not a constant factor, so you can't approach a poll (or judgement of it) believing it to be held in the same light as you might in your own case. 

Human sexuality is immensely complex and is often seen through the distinct socio-cultural lens that the individual is using to guide themselves through life. I would never be so bold as to claim how one person handles a situation is inherently wrong. So long as no one is being harmed, it's none of my business to make a judgment about what would be better suited to a situation independent of myself. 

And in regards to "losing control," yes in fact some people have disorders or personal issues that make the potential to lose control in a sexual situation much more likely. Doesn't make it right if that was not understood or accepted by their spouse (hence my emphasis on communication), however, in my own case, I would not throw away /my/ partnership since I find the value in it to be worth fighting for. Not everyone feels that way, nor does everyone have a partnership that to /them/ would be worth moving forward in, but that's the beauty of subjectively open-ended questions. It's personal and so to judge how one would choose to heal or value their spouse even in this unlikely scenario is quite frankly unnecessary and takes away from the point of the poll.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> You classified several of the responses that were concerned with STDs as part of the grouping of "nonchalance" you listed. That was the only reason why I pointed that out.
> 
> Yes, the question is ridiculous, but I answered within the context of the poll and did not go beyond it since the question in and of itself is worded in a way that is more indicative of a personality-based response than any moral construct.
> 
> ...


I do not consider being concerned with STD's nonchalant. That's a very real concern, and one I had when I went through my ex-wife's infidelity. I think you'd find that the amount of betrayed spouses who "laugh" about their wayward spouse's infidelity is minuscule. In all the reading, of the 1000's of threads I've read in CWI, not once have I read about a betrayed spouse laughing about it. Not once. Does that mean it's never happened? Of course not. But that's incredibly rare and not a usual or normal human response to the ultimate betrayal. If that's how you would react to it, more power to ya.

"Sexual value" is overwhelmingly high amongst the vast majority of married people - insofar as it being something most people feel is a protected and exclusive act, at least in terms of people not in open marriages.

Of course "some people have disorders"...from all the reading I've done, and all the people I've associated with, "disorders" that would cause one to "lose control" and fall on a penis are not the cause. Selfishness, deviousness, lack of respect, immaturity, cruelty and just plain old bad character are the norm. Not some medical condition. 

I don't know what the point of the poll is. Having the caveat of "but you go on to live happily ever after" renders it kind of useless, imo.

It's a deal breaker for me, end of story. But hey, to each their own.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

hardwired said:


> I do not consider being concerned with STD's nonchalant. That's a very real concern, and one I had when I went through my ex-wife's infidelity. I think you'd find that the amount of betrayed spouses who "laugh" about their wayward spouse's infidelity is minuscule. In all the reading, of the 1000's of threads I've read in CWI, not once have I read about a betrayed spouse laughing about it. Not once. Does that mean it's never happened? Of course not. But that's incredibly rare and not a usual or normal human response to *the ultimate betrayal*. If that's how you would react to it, more power to ya.
> 
> "Sexual value" is overwhelmingly high amongst the vast majority of married people - insofar as it being something most people feel is a protected and exclusive act, at least in terms of people not in open marriages.
> 
> ...



I think the point you are missing is that a ONS is not necessarily "the ultimate betrayal" to every single person in a committed relationship. It isn't a universal law or the end all and be all in terms of intimate commitment between partners. Yes I understand that to many it is the "ultimate betrayal" but this poll wasn't about people speculating about others, just themselves. 

That might be where there's a disconnect with how we are each approaching this subject. For you it is clearly a deep wound associated with deep betrayal. That's completely understandable and I genuinely am very sorry that you've had to experience that extreme pain. I'm just saying in that my personal experience and in my own perspective, a ONS would not be the ultimate betrayal to _me_. I never once said anything about whether or not it's "normal" or "right," because I can't speak for anyone other than myself, and quite honestly I don't really care whether or not it's considered a "normal" response because how I choose to respond does not affect anyone outside of my relationship. 

At this point I think I'm more curious as to why the responses of others (and whether or not they go along with your view of the world and relationships) is such a fixated point for you. I can understand you developing a response based on what you know to be true about yourself, but the judging and questioning of the validity of others' responses (despite having no relation to you) and how they measure up to your own standards was what initially caused me to raise an eyebrow, specifically since you grouped my own response in with that scrutiny.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> I think the point you are missing is that a ONS is not necessarily "the ultimate betrayal" to every single person in a committed relationship. It isn't a universal law or the end all and be all in terms of intimate commitment between partners. Yes I understand that to many it is the "ultimate betrayal" but this poll wasn't about people speculating about others, just themselves.
> 
> That might be where there's a disconnect with how we are each approaching this subject. For you it is clearly a deep wound associated with deep betrayal. That's completely understandable and I genuinely am very sorry that you've had to experience that extreme pain. I'm just saying in that my personal experience and in my own perspective, a ONS would not be the ultimate betrayal to _me_. I never once said anything about whether or not it's "normal" or "right," because I can't speak for anyone other than myself, and quite honestly I don't really care whether or not it's considered a "normal" response because how I choose to respond does not affect anyone outside of my relationship.
> 
> At this point I think I'm more curious as to why the responses of others (and whether or not they go along with your view of the world and relationships) is such a fixated point for you. I can understand you developing a response based on what you know to be true about yourself, but the judging and questioning of the validity of others' responses (despite having no relation to you) and how they measure up to your own standards was what initially caused me to raise an eyebrow, specifically since you grouped my own response in with that scrutiny.


If you were to take a poll of the general public, infidelity, whether a ONS or long term, would rank extremely high on the betrayal list. That's just a fact. Round up 1000 people in what they believe is a monogamous marriage from any walk of life and ask them to gauge how they'd feel if their spouse had sex with another person...extreme betrayal would be on the higher end of the scale. That's why I'm puzzled by the responses in this thread. From the reading I've done here over the years, some of the responses in this thread are a bit of an anomaly - hence my curiosity and my being puzzled. I've never heard/read anyone saying they'd laugh off their spouse's infidelity before. So I'm probing a bit. That's why I'm here - to try and understand. This has nothing to do with anyone measuring up to my standards. 

I don't have a deep wound - that wound healed up pretty quickly after I divorced my ex-wife. She simply became nothing to me. I'm probably lucky in that regard - I know a lot of people carry that pain with them for a long time, some indefinitely. 

In regards to questioning the validity - yeah...I'm incredulous that anyone would "laugh off" their spouses affair. But clearly you would, so there you go.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The thing that is just so...oddly twisted is that it is the lie of omission that is being heralded as the moral choice. It's like being in bizarro world....


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Yes and No..... I mean of course I would want to not be deceived and I want to know everything but!!! Once you know it is hard to forget, for me if i suspected and they owned up immediately upon questioning then there is still some trust and be able to move forward maybe but painfully, if they lied and i find out then there is no saving. i think if it happened and really was a one off big regretful mistake and no worry about STD's then I dont want to know.

The thought of someone else with my girlfriend would make me sick and be an extremely painful image to deal with.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I'm glad I found out, otherwise she would just have divorced me eventually (the writing was on the wall) and I'd have blamed myself. After finding out though, I could walk away with no regrets.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> I think the point you are missing is that a ONS is not necessarily "the ultimate betrayal" to every single person in a committed relationship. It isn't a universal law or the end all and be all in terms of intimate commitment between partners. Yes I understand that to many it is the "ultimate betrayal" but this poll wasn't about people speculating about others, just themselves.


TOTALLY.

I get it, its THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD. For some people, for many people, most people!

But I am not one of those people. And I have walked the walk, talked the talk - this isn't all just hypothetical for me. I have been there. And for me, no, not the ultimate betrayal - there are many other things that I would personally take much harder. 

This is a question for each individual to answer for themselves only. You can't crawl into someone else's head.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

hardwired said:


> If you were to take a poll of the general public, infidelity, whether a ONS or long term, would rank extremely high on the betrayal list. That's just a fact. Round up 1000 people in what they believe is a monogamous marriage from any walk of life and ask them to gauge how they'd feel if their spouse had sex with another person...extreme betrayal would be on the higher end of the scale. That's why I'm puzzled by the responses in this thread. From the reading I've done here over the years, some of the responses in this thread are a bit of an anomaly - hence my curiosity and my being puzzled. I've never heard/read anyone saying they'd laugh off their spouse's infidelity before. So I'm probing a bit. That's why I'm here - to try and understand. This has nothing to do with anyone measuring up to my standards.
> 
> I don't have a deep wound - that wound healed up pretty quickly after I divorced my ex-wife. She simply became nothing to me. I'm probably lucky in that regard - I know a lot of people carry that pain with them for a long time, some indefinitely.
> 
> In regards to questioning the validity - yeah...I'm incredulous that anyone would "laugh off" their spouses affair. But clearly you would, so there you go.




Again, I'm not arguing with you about the general consensus that most people consider it a betrayal. If you are reading responses that appear to be anomalies, there could be different reasons for it that you can take into consideration (such as the diversity of opinion may be greater than previous samples have provided, and/or it just might be that a certain type of person is more likely to respond to a poll like this with an answer that is out of the scope of the norm). That's the funny thing about any poll, controlled or not. 

But if you truly are curious and simply want to understand, this is where I am coming from:

In my personal case, I don't value purely physical sexual interaction very high. While I am very high drive (and luckily have an equally high drive husband) I am much more cerebral and respond to the more psychological levels of sexual interaction than simply direct contact. So for me, a ONS would be seen as simply an aberration of my husband's personality which, like I said, would first intrigue me to know why, concern me because I was not given warning, and then I'd laugh about it because it was a one-off that likely had an interesting lead up that we could learn to avoid in the future. 

I would also like to stress that to me a ONS is _not_ equivalent to an affair. For me personally, an emotional affair would be absolutely devastating in comparison. A ONS to me is nothing more than a chemical and physical response to a moment of extreme arousal and convenience. There is no substance or investment there beyond primal instinct. However, with an emotional affair I would feel that my role as partner, best friend and confidant was redirected to someone else, and _that_ would destroy me because then what role do I have in the relationship? That is where my value is placed highest in a relationship. Sexual attraction and desire, for me, pales in comparison to the intensity of a connection that goes beyond the physical and that, to me, is worth fighting for.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Again, I'm not arguing with you about the general consensus that most people consider it a betrayal. If you are reading responses that appear to be anomalies, there could be different reasons for it that you can take into consideration (such as the diversity of opinion may be greater than previous samples have provided, and/or it just might be that a certain type of person is more likely to respond to a poll like this with an answer that is out of the scope of the norm). That's the funny thing about any poll, controlled or not.
> 
> But if you truly are curious and simply want to understand, this is where I am coming from:
> 
> ...


Fair enough. 

From what I've read in CWI, I think (generally), the physical part is more difficult for the men to deal with, and the emotional more difficult for the women. So in that regard, you fall in line with what I've witnessed (generally).


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I think most of us know our spouses enough, to guess how an unconfessed ONS would effect them. 

My W had guilt about her minimizing a story of what she did with some guy 3 years before me, it took her 25 years or more to tell me they not just kissed but he fondled her boobs too, completely no-important to me but shameful to her.

Sometimes it's not that we really need to know but they have to unburden themselves. 

Tamat


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I expect you are right, but it doesn't affect me that way.



hardwired said:


> I suspect if you polled a massive cross-section of society you would find that the overwhelming majority would not feel the way you do.
> 
> That's why there are thousands of threads in the Coping with Infidelity section of this site filled with devastated betrayed spouses. That's why there are books and seminars on it, and therapists/counselors who dedicate their lives to helping people cope with it. Your view on it is not in line with the majority of society.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

hardwired said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> From what I've read in CWI, I think (generally), the physical part is more difficult for the men to deal with, and the emotional more difficult for the women. So in that regard, you fall in line with what I've witnessed (generally).



Do you have any theories as to why the physical may be more prevalent a factor for men?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It was not a lack of money. If you read the entire post - he was a terrible husband, and sexually ignored her wishes, but due to the way the law works, she would have suffered financially in a divorce, he would have gained. 

Is it reasonable to expect her to either be celibate, have sex with a selfish lover who doesn't care about her, or spend a lot of money to get out of a marriage where she has held up her end of the deal, but he hasn't? 

Hasn't he effectively abandoned the marriage already, and is just using the law to leech off of her? 





hardwired said:


> A lack of money is not and never will be an excuse or justification to cheat on one's spouse. That's ridiculous.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> It was not a lack of money. If you read the entire post - he was a terrible husband, and sexually ignored her wishes, but due to the way the law works, she would have suffered financially in a divorce, he would have gained.
> 
> Is it reasonable to expect her to either be celibate, have sex with a selfish lover who doesn't care about her, or spend a lot of money to get out of a marriage where she has held up her end of the deal, but he hasn't?
> 
> Hasn't he effectively abandoned the marriage already, and is just using the law to leech off of her?


She needs to get out of that marriage, regardless.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Do you have any theories as to why the physical may be more prevalent a factor for men?


Well, I think men are just more physically and women more emotionally driven generally...so that plays in I would imagine. Also, maybe there's some psychology to it - in terms of, a woman has something put INTO her body...there's maybe a level of dominance there, she's accepting something inside her. Whereas a man is the one putting something inside the woman - maybe that's part of what makes it more difficult? Sticking an appendage in something isn't as intimate as accepting an appendage inside you? And the cheating woman is in some way submitting to the dominance and power of the OM - again emasculating the BS.

Also, a man leaves a part of himself inside a woman when he ejaculates. He's effectively "seeded" her. There's probably a large psychological component to that along with the physical. The betrayed husband has been emasculated and his seed has been deemed less potent and important than the OM's. 

The BS has had his power taken from him, and left, effectively, impotent.

These are just theories, obviously.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I don't want to clutter another thread with this but given a specific scenario where your spouse had lost control and had an ONS, would you want to know about it?
> 
> The main prerequisite is that it's a one time thing only (*not* serial cheating or affair) and your marriage will go on 'happily ever after', with both 100% committed to the marriage.
> 
> ...


Pointless question. If there were a ONS Then the betrayed partner has the right to decide whether there will be happily ever after and commitment to the marriage. That decision will be greatly affected by how the wayward spouse handles the disclosure, and the details of the disclosure. The prerequisite (commitment and happily ever after) can not be met equally by both parties if there is not equal knowledge. 

Disclaimer: I don't have enough experience in this to really answer the question.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Do you have any theories as to why the physical may be more prevalent a factor for men?


And on a much simpler basis..... biology. 

A female never has to worry who the parents of the offspring are. She knows, and she can to an extent control this. 

The male however, can not control this. There is a reason why the word cuckold came about. Named after the Cuckoo bird who is a "brood parasite" laying its eggs in other birds nests. 

Again.. straight biologically - talking to the animal within us (we have a conscience and are not totally controlled by instinct) - the stallion runs off any male intruders from his band. The male lion defends his pride. The silverback doesn't allow other males in his troop. 

Yet - in all of those examples, it is often seen that females will stray and mate with other males when the alpha male isn't looking - but one of, if not the highest drive the alpha male has is to assure that it is only his seed that is getting passed. 

Females do not have this same primal drive.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Committing adultery is the ultimate selfish behavior.... confessing that disgression is the first step in giving the *injured* partner back the power the adulterer took away.


But the partner is not injured, until he knows...He was completely fine up to that point. The WS on the other hand is not able to live with the guilt, hence the necessity for confession.
Never mind. I guess there is just a divergence of opinion. Which is fair enough.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We have 10,000 years of civilization and the associated evolution to change our behavior from that of other great apes. 

(evolution can work on these timescales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_red_fox )

I don't think animal behavior is a good model for human behavior. 

Pure drive to procreate isn't either - otherwise no men would enjoy oral sex. 





I shouldnthave said:


> And on a much simpler basis..... biology.
> 
> A female never has to worry who the parents of the offspring are. She knows, and she can to an extent control this.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> In both those instances the husbands were certainly part of the bad relationship however 2 wrongs never make a right. Those wives had choices to make: leave, do nothing, cheat, They chose to cheat and that choice and that outcome is always on them.
> 
> Also you seem to know these cases from the woman’s side but do you also know the husbands version? I ask because the cheater handbook also does much rewriting of history. After I exposed my x wife’s affair our mutual friends then exposed her history rewrite that she had been telling them. This of course painted me as a monster who lied, Intimidated, controlled, cheated and manipulated her. Course NONE of this was true and once all those mutual friends discovered the real her they dumped her. I would always be cautious hearing the marriage tales of woe from the the cheating spouse.


It took me a bit of time to understand the concept that there isn't really such a thing as a 'universally objective truth'. I mean there is, but no one single person (or even people as a whole) can attain it.

Truth is a concept and limited by the perception of the observer(s). Her version of the events will be true to her, his version of the events will be true to him. Who is the_ final_ adjudicator? Does it make something more true if more people believe in something? (Clue: no).

That's why the sentence 'but he deserves to know the truth' sounds a bit self-indulgent to me. Whose truth? Who gets to decide what he/she deserves or what the truth even is?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> Also, people don't "lose control" and stick their penis in another woman, or take another man's penis into their vagina. Cheating is a calculated decision. Calculated decisions, by definition, are not "losing control".


But that's non-sensical because if it was such a calculated decision, many people wouldn't regret it afterwards.
That's why I said earlier that for many people (at least 50%), infidelity is semi-involuntary. That's what the facts show.



hardwired said:


> The question is ridiculous actually, because marriages affected by infidelity, ONS or not, do not "go on happily ever after". That's a fantasy. Cheating is brutally destructive. That's just a silly notion.


The knowledge that someone has been unfaithful can be destructive, yes. Though even with that knowledge, many couples still go being happily married (wounded, but they recover). Many WSs realise the extent of the damage and want to make up for it. It's a myth (in my opinion) that that realisation can only be achieved through confession though. Guilt - as a super-powerful incentive to make the marriage better - should not be underestimated.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Pure drive to procreate isn't either - otherwise no men would enjoy oral sex.


No form of sexual contact would be pleasurable unless we were biologically driven to procreate. That is the whole reason the penis is full of nerve endings - so that the owner of it desires to get it in a place where his seed can be spread. 

A mouth just happens to have much of the same sensations as the place where the penis is supposed to go for procreation. 

I did qualify my answer that we are not primarily driven by instinct, but biology, hormones etc do have an influence on our emotions.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Yes, the question is ridiculous, but I answered within the context of the poll and did not go beyond it since the question in and of itself is worded in a way that is more indicative of a personality-based response *than any moral construct.
> *


It's a simple question about a personal preference how an individual would prefer to have a situation handled. I am having trouble understanding where the 'moral construct' comes into this. Perhaps someone can explain what is meant by it.

I tend to believe there's no such thing as 'objective morals'; all morals are products of societies that are continuously evolving. It's very easy to see this since morals are not static and change as societies evolve (e.g. punishing slaves a certain way used to be moral, now, not so much anymore etc).

That doesn't mean that I view cheating as a 'moral' thing to do, within our societies. Most animals are probably ok with this...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> I do not consider being concerned with STD's nonchalant. That's a very real concern, and one I had when I went through my ex-wife's infidelity. I think you'd find that the amount of betrayed spouses who "laugh" about their wayward spouse's infidelity is minuscule. In all the reading, of the 1000's of threads I've read in CWI, not once have I read about a betrayed spouse laughing about it. Not once.


Surely because those happy campers will post around the 'hotwife' section of the forum instead 

But seriously, the CWI section is self selecting; it attracts a particular type of poster and a particular type of cheating.

To us, it would be pretty devastating I think and that's why we had this discussion.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But the partner is not injured, until he knows...He was completely fine up to that point. The WS on the other hand is not able to live with the guilt, hence the necessity for confession.
> Never mind. I guess there is just a divergence of opinion. Which is fair enough.


i could have lived with the guilt....just sayin
so you are wrong when trying to analyze me....

I confessed to allow him to make the decision what to do...just accept it ok? because THIS is the truth in our situation.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> I don't know what the point of the poll is. Having the caveat of "but you go on to live happily ever after" renders it kind of useless, imo.
> 
> It's a deal breaker for me, end of story. But hey, to each their own.


Maybe it's not worded well. Which part do you find confusing?

If you don't know that something happened, then it hasn't happened *as far as YOU are concerned*. Why can't you go on having a happy marriage if you will never know that it happened? That's the premise. 

If no one told you that a Russian satellite was launched yesterday to orbit the earth, you wouldn't think and wouldn't care that it existed and continue living your life as if it didn't happen.

The 'living happily ever after and being 100% committed to the marriage after the ONS' part is NOT a moral judgement, it's a factual statement how the betrayed spouse would *perceive* his/her marriage after the betrayal.
This part can be true with or without the confession and differs from one individual to another (obviously). For me, it would only be true if I wasn't *told* about the one-time betrayal.
And I am *only* talking about a scenario where the couple *continues* to stay together.

Scenario 1: Wife has an ONS, realises she made a terrible mistake, confesses to the husband, they decide to 'work through it', reconcile and their marriage stays strong until the end.

Scenario 2: Wife has an ONS, realises she made a terrible mistake, *does not* confess to the husband, but decides to devote herself to the marriage until the end.

I was asking whether people prefer scenario 1 or scenario 2. I think many misunderstood (or I didn't explin it well) and thought that the question was about 'what's the moral thing to do' after an ONS: to confess or not. This wasn't the question. Judging from some of the responses, there was perhaps a misunderstanding. A scenario where the confession takes place and the husband files for divorce is not one of the scenarios presented (even though it happens probably half the time IRL) and therefore not relevant *for the purposes of the poll*. The poll is entirely from the BS's point of view only and what his/her preference would be, given the fact that they will end up staying together until the end. 

I think where I screwed up with the question is that I didn't explain properly that one has to imagine being a spouse who is *not going to leave the WS*. And perhaps that's the bit where most cannot imagine themselves.


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## Clockwork (May 2, 2018)

Yes I would want to know, and I am a man. Who knows if you can work through it, you'll never know until you try, but it is a WHOLE lot better than having everyone else know but you. I knew a couple that was getting married, not well, but I knew someone within their group of friends. The soon to be groom had his bachelor party and a stripper/hooker was bought for him. He took her to a hotel, did his thing and re-joined the party. Some of the people here were the bride's friends and family (obviously all male) and there was almost jubilation, not scorn, that he had sex with her on his "last night". Not a single word mentioned to the soon to be bride, to this day as far as I know. Terrible considering people that are supposed to love her hid it from her. 

So yeah, always know the truth. Then deal with it. But you deserve to know.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Clockwork said:


> Yes I would want to know, and I am a man. Who knows if you can work through it, you'll never know until you try, but it is a WHOLE lot better *than having everyone else know but you*.


But again, this is a new variable that you have just inserted. Yes, it can and does happen sometimes but that's part not of the poll question (the assumption is, that nobody knows apart from the WS and whoever she had the ONS with).


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

I shouldnthave said:


> No form of sexual contact would be pleasurable unless we were biologically driven to procreate. That is the whole reason the penis is full of nerve endings - so that the owner of it desires to get it in a place where his seed can be spread.
> 
> *A mouth just happens to have much of the same sensations as the place where the penis is supposed to go for procreation.
> *
> I did qualify my answer that we are not primarily driven by instinct, but biology, hormones etc do have an influence on our emotions.



Just a fun side fact, the tissue that forms inside of the mouth (male or female) is actually made of the same composite as the tissue that forms the vaginal canal.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i could have lived with the guilt....just sayin
> so you are wrong when trying to analyze me....
> 
> I confessed to allow him to make the decision what to do...just accept it ok? because THIS is the truth in our situation.


I do accept that it's *your* truth. Of course. It wouldn't be true for me (if my wife told me).

For example, if you found out that your husband had a (god forbid) mysterious illness and had 6 months to live after which he would simply die in his sleep. No pain beforehand and no sign of the illness otherwise during those 6 months. He has no knowledge about it, only you do. The premise is that there is nothing that can be done about it at all to change the outcome and telling him would not alter the course of events. Would you tell him the truth (because he deserves to know) or would you keep this from him so that you both can continue enjoying life for the next 6 months? (And go on a cruise or something...)

That's the closest analogy I can think of, of what it means for me to know.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> It's a simple question about a personal preference how an individual would prefer to have a situation handled. I am having trouble understanding where the 'moral construct' comes into this. Perhaps someone can explain what is meant by it.
> 
> I tend to believe there's no such thing as 'objective morals'; all morals are products of societies that are continuously evolving. It's very easy to see this since morals are not static and change as societies evolve (e.g. punishing slaves a certain way used to be moral, now, not so much anymore etc).
> 
> That doesn't mean that I view cheating as a 'moral' thing to do, within our societies. Most animals are probably ok with this...


I'm sorry if my wording got jumbled, but I was actually agreeing with you in that it's a completely subjective question. I was making the claim that a moral construct plays no part in it since the very concept of morality cannot be objectively measured. I only mentioned it as a stated disregard since I noticed that many of the responses tended toward basing their answers around a morality scale that was compared to a "universal standard." I don't believe that anyone can use a "universal standard" when discussing personal preference.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Just a fun side fact, the tissue that forms inside of the mouth (male or female) is actually made of the same composite as the tissue that forms the vaginal canal.


Are you saying my mouth is actually an undercover vagina? Is it why it keeps dribbling. 
What's that 'composite' called? (Don't say: human tissue :wink2.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> I'm sorry if my wording got jumbled, but I was actually agreeing with you in that it's a completely subjective question. I was making the claim that a moral construct plays no part in it since the very concept of morality cannot be objectively measured. I only mentioned it as a stated disregard since I noticed that many of the responses tended toward basing their answers around a morality scale that was compared to a "universal standard." I don't believe that anyone can use a "universal standard" when discussing personal preference.


Yep, that's it. you got it. (must be the first!)


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

It's funny to hear how many people answered they would want to know, because of the fear of a disease. But if your spouse is gonna lie about having a ONS, I don't think they would be any more forthcoming regarding safe sex. And how would you know anyway, unless you were there.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

This discussion has the potential to perk Schrodinger's interest hahaha


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I do accept that it's *your* truth. Of course. It wouldn't be true for me (if my wife told me).
> 
> For example, if you found out that your husband had a (god forbid) mysterious illness and had 6 months to live after which he would simply die in his sleep. No pain beforehand and no sign of the illness otherwise during those 6 months. He has no knowledge about it, only you do. The premise is that there is nothing that can be done about it at all to change the outcome and telling him would not alter the course of events. Would you tell him the truth (because he deserves to know) or would you keep this from him so that you both can continue enjoying life for the next 6 months? (And go on a cruise or something...)
> 
> That's the closest analogy I can think of, of what it means for me to know.


First of all...this thread is about the poll you posted at the beginning. would you want to know?
Now you are attempting to bring in all different kinds of scenarios....and none of it applies to the original thread.

I have answered for myself...regarding my situation and have not tried to say that my answer is the right or wrong one for anyone else.

I confessed...I did not have to..I confessed so my husband could make the choice best for him. This is a fact. He never expressed an opinion that he would not want to know. I handled it the best way I knew to handle it at the time.

when asked recently...would you want to know...his answer was yes.

So in our situation...I did the right thing. That's all i can comment on...because what i think does not apply to anyone else. My relationship is with my husband.....i don't care what anyone else thinks.


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## Trumbull (May 2, 2018)

The debate seems to be if lying by omission is acceptable. If you and your spouse have discussed this and have agreed to stay quiet about the situation, then you are following your agreement. From reading this thread, there are people on both sides of the debate although the poll shows the majority are in agreement for telling. Personally, I would want to know. I consider being intimate with another person more than just a small transgression. Even a ONS is not a one time, whoops, I lost control, I could not stop, it is a major betrayal of the marriage vows. Having said that, many are ok with swinging, swapping, cuckolding, or other types of behavior that the majority would not approve. If you are OK with not knowing and have that agreement with your spouse no problem. You do seem very biased on making everyone agree with you.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Are you saying my mouth is actually an undercover vagina? Is it why it keeps dribbling.
> What's that 'composite' called? (Don't say: human tissue :wink2.


From what I've understood, both the vagina and inner cheek have the same type of mucosae, which could also possibly explain a similarity in natural lubrication and saliva.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

I wonder.....

I wonder how many marriages involve one night stands etc that never get discovered. How many are currently living "ignorance is bliss"?

I don't want to get into all of it here (and the mob if angry pitchforks it would ignite) - but let's say I have seen the underbelly, been privy to the secret lives and it was quite an eye opener.

The supposedly devot Christian executive, pillar of his community, ultimate family man - yet hooks up with women on his business trips, that sort of thing.

I have seen a lot of behavior during "business travel" thay certainly seemed out of character, well, at least the character these people protray in their public life, and I have wondered if it followed them home.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> The thing that is just so...oddly twisted is that it is the lie of omission that is being heralded as the moral choice. It's like being in bizarro world....


There is no 'moral choice', only an expressed personal preference.

You are trying to look at the situation from an outsiders vantage point, observing these two scenarios and trying to take a 'moral stance' on the situation. This isn't the purpose.
To understand the question of the poll, you have to imagine yourself being the BS (with the given pre requisites) and choose what you'd prefer. It's a hypothetical situation, based on real life. 
The one thing that is not so realistic (for the BS), is having the *ability *to choose (unless you discussed your preference with the spouse beforehand). So the question assumes being able to choose: to know or not to know.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

MAJDEATH said:


> It's funny to hear how many people answered they would want to know, because of the fear of a disease. But if your spouse is gonna lie about having a ONS, I don't think they would be any more forthcoming regarding safe sex. And how would you know anyway, unless you were there.


Well....

I know I come from bizarro world compared to most people.

But we have talked about it. I have intensly stressed about how important safe sex is to me - sex? I care less about, as long as there are measures taken. Plus neither my husband nor I want anything to do with children - so again, precautions.

But I get what you are saying - and I don't think most people think "oh well they told me they used a condom so cool". It's more that they want to know so that they can go and get tested.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> There is no 'moral choice', only an expressed personal preference.
> 
> You are trying to look at the situation from an outsiders vantage point, observing these two scenarios and trying to take a 'moral stance' on the situation. This isn't the purpose.
> To understand the question of the poll, you have to imagine yourself being the BS (with the given *preposterous and impossible* pre requisites) and choose what you'd prefer. It's a hypothetical situation, based on real life.
> The one thing that is not so realistic (for the BS), is having the *ability *to choose (unless you discussed your preference with the spouse beforehand). So the question assumes being able to choose: to know or not to know.


And if the prerequisites are bad, How about the idea that the secret can be kept for 1 - 50 years? six months is a serious stretch. Even if the betrayed spouse sincerely tries not to know.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Pointless question. If there were a ONS Then the betrayed partner has the right to decide whether there will be happily ever after and commitment to the marriage. That decision will be greatly affected by how the wayward spouse handles the disclosure, and the details of the disclosure. The prerequisite (commitment and happily ever after) can not be met equally by both parties if there is not equal knowledge.
> 
> Disclaimer: I don't have enough experience in this to really answer the question.


You don't need experience. It's a purely hypothetical question.
'Living happily ever after' is a premise, not whether it's likely. 

It's not an unrealistic premise because people *do* end up living together, and even happily, (sometimes even with a stronger marriage) after infidelity.

For example, some will prefer *knowing*, because they feel it would flush out some problems in their marriage that both will strive hard to eradicate, after the infidelity. Something that couldn't be achieved if the partner wouldn't have confessed. Or they may find that 'forgiveness' will be of more value to them than the pain from knowing that their partner had an ONS.

Others (like myself), feel that perhaps the pain and trust damage will be worse than whatever other benefit potentially gained from knowing.

But answers like: 'pointless question, I have to know, so I can divorce them', or 'doesn't make sense, because you can't be committed after infidelity' etc implies that either I haven't explained the premises very well, or they were misunderstood.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I shouldnthave said:


> I wonder.....
> 
> I wonder how many marriages involve one night stands etc that never get discovered. How many are currently living "ignorance is bliss"?
> 
> ...


Business trips are the enemy of committed relationships. I too have seen this firsthand - my female boss hooking up with some cute Navy guys at the club. And trying to hide it the next day on the flight home. Needless to say my eval later that year was outstanding :grin2:.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> First of all...this thread is about the poll you posted at the beginning. would you want to know?
> Now you are attempting to bring in all different kinds of scenarios....and none of it applies to the original thread.
> 
> I have answered for myself...regarding my situation and have not tried to say that my answer is the right or wrong one for anyone else.
> ...


Ok...:scratchhead: Again, maybe I wasn't very clear, but it seems that you have answered the poll on behalf of your husband then?
If you are answering yourself, you have to imagine being the betrayed spouse yourself. And what you would have wanted, if your husband cheated on you. (Wanting to know details of your husband's infidelity or not).
It's not and never has been about whether what you have done (as a WS) was right or wrong. 
If some of my posts gave out the impression that I judged you for the infidelity itself, I apologise. The only comment I made was with regards to you making the decision on behalf of your husband, to decide what you thought was best for him. The fact that that decision turned out to be the right one for your husband (that he wished to know, if any infidelity occurred from your side), could have been fluke, because you haven't actually discussed it with him to determine what would have been best for him (whether he would have wanted to know or not).

But I think that has more to do with our differing views on whether 'truth' should be told in ALL circumstances and at ANY expense, no matter what. (I am sure someone will point out that it's an implicit endorsement for allowing yourself to generally lie or omit the truth. It's not.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes, I am quite familiar with that point of view (though wouldn't be able to see it that way myself). I think it's more common among women. (With Uhtred being an exception!). Emotional infidelity seems worse for women than for men, on average. 
I think for a man, to know that your mate 'submitted' to another male is very difficult to process, on a primal level. 

That's interesting because you could answer the poll either way then, unless you wanted to know why.



ButWeAreStrange said:


> Again, I'm not arguing with you about the general consensus that most people consider it a betrayal. If you are reading responses that appear to be anomalies, there could be different reasons for it that you can take into consideration (such as the diversity of opinion may be greater than previous samples have provided, and/or it just might be that a certain type of person is more likely to respond to a poll like this with an answer that is out of the scope of the norm). That's the funny thing about any poll, controlled or not.
> 
> But if you truly are curious and simply want to understand, this is where I am coming from:
> 
> ...


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ok...:scratchhead: Again, maybe I wasn't very clear, but it seems that you have answered the poll on behalf of your husband then?
> If you are answering yourself, you have to imagine being the betrayed spouse yourself. And what you would have wanted, if your husband cheated on you. (Wanting to know details of your husband's infidelity or not).
> *I answered the poll for myself as a betrayed spouse....I don't have to imagine anything....and this proves you don't READ you just spew your own opinions.*
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Apologies if I missed it. Most of the posts seemed to be about your own infidelity (as a WS) and perhaps I missed the relevant post where you explain your vote.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

One more Prerequisite and we can call this a Rube Goldberg machine.
So pretending that my romantic partner of 30 plus years goes against a teetotaler life and gets drunk. 
Then as a result of unaccustomed blood alcohol discovers her lost libido. 
And finds a drunken sailor who has been 7 years without and would hit 50 year old drunk like a bass drum.
Pretending that every person in a small town would decide to not look while this is going on.
And Pretending that I can choose whether or not I know about it because a UFO lands on my porch and offers me a selective mind wipe. 
If all of that happened the thing I would want most would be to . . . . 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Sit on a rainbow with my pet unicorn and eat cupcakes. Because anything would be possible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> Yet - in all of those examples, it is often seen that females will stray and mate with other males *when the alpha male isn't looking* - but one of, if not the highest drive the alpha male has is to assure that it is only his seed that is getting passed.


He's probably not looking because he's trying to decide how to answer a stupid poll


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Seems perfectly reasonable 

I am not sure which part you find so unbelievable? The part about nobody else knowing? Why is it so difficult to have an ONS in secret, without anyone knowing? It doesn't need to take place on Trafalgar Square. (though it could, nobody would still care. Too many people screwing there already).

The part about knowing or not knowing: yes that's a hypothetical.

But you can actually *choose* if you wanted to, ahead of time: you can discuss something like this beforehand (as mentioned on the other thread). My wife did mention this to me (that she wouldn't want to know, if I had one meaningless ONS with someone else. In no way did I take this as her consent for me to cheat. But if the unthinkable ever happens, I will know what to do afterwards, and she therefore *did* make a choice. (Even without the UFO's memory ass-wipe).



Mr. Nail said:


> One more Prerequisite and we can call this a Rube Goldberg machine.
> So pretending that my romantic partner of 30 plus years goes against a teetotaler life and gets drunk.
> Then as a result of unaccustomed blood alcohol discovers her lost libido.
> And finds a drunken sailor who has been 7 years without and would hit 50 year old drunk like a bass drum.
> ...


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Apologies if I missed it. Most of the posts seemed to be about your own infidelity (as a WS) and perhaps I missed the relevant post where you explain your vote.


your poll does not ask what did you do...it asks would you want to know.....a speculation not a fact.

I answered for myself....I would want to know

I did not have to verify...DID i want to know...or did HE want to know...as in did it happen...

The question is WOULD you want to know...purely speculation.

I would want to know. Then you add this... The main prerequisite is that it's a one time thing only

and of course that's speculation too...because who knows if it was one time or 100 times?

So your poll is would you want to know if your spouse had a one time thing?

Well...now lets speculate some more...What is a one time thing exactly? a one time kiss? a one time sexual encounter? a one time blow job? a one time on line mutual masturbation? a one time EA?

See you are asking people to speculate and there are a million variables in your question.

and then you keep trying to adjust your question to fit your own opinion about the subject....when everything is subjective and means absolutely nothing...because the only thing that matters is that you and your wife discussed it and neither of you want to know and you are trying to validate your opinions by asking others if they agree with you.

ok...I don't agree with you...now what? Does it really matter what anyone else thinks? Does it change your opinion? Of course it doesn't. You still don't want to know if your wife cheats.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Trumbull said:


> The debate seems to be if lying by omission is acceptable. If you and your spouse have discussed this and have agreed to stay quiet about the situation, then you are following your agreement. From reading this thread, there are people on both sides of the debate although the poll shows the majority are in agreement for telling. Personally, I would want to know. I consider being intimate with another person more than just a small transgression. Even a ONS is not a one time, whoops, I lost control, I could not stop, it is a major betrayal of the marriage vows. Having said that, many are ok with swinging, swapping, cuckolding, or other types of behavior that the majority would not approve. If you are OK with not knowing and have that agreement with your spouse no problem. You do seem very biased on making everyone agree with you.


Personal, is that you again? :wink2:

No, don't need anyone to agree with me at all. In fact, it's the opposite: I am more curious to hear reasons why others would want to know, in those circumstances. 
But it would be nice if those reasons were not based on misunderstanding the question and premises of the poll (granted, it's too much to ask since I was probably **** at wording it in the first place).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> And if the prerequisites are bad, How about the idea that the secret can be kept for 1 - 50 years? six months is a serious stretch. Even if the betrayed spouse sincerely tries not to know.


Why are you misquoting me? I don't think you are supposed to do that.

If you don't like the assumptions, then just don't vote. Very simple.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Pretending much harder now.
Pretend Years ago My wife and I had a discussion and I told her that if she had a one night stand, I didn't want to know about it.
Pretend that she commits the perfect crime and leaves no physical evidence.
Pretend that her partner in crime dies of pleasure and never has the chance to brag or confess.
Pretend that my senile dementia sets in on the very same night and I never notice something off about her.
Then I guess I would be OK with not knowing. But I could pretend that the chocolate cake every Tuesday was a cup cake and my wheelchair was a unicorn . . . .

You only think you can make this hypothetical choice.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Why are you misquoting me? I don't think you are supposed to do that.


That is why I put in the bold red letters


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Pretending much harder now.
> Pretend Years ago My wife and I had a discussion and I told her that if she had a one night stand, I didn't want to know about it.
> Pretend that she commits the perfect crime and leaves no physical evidence.
> Pretend that her partner in crime dies of pleasure and never has the chance to brag or confess.
> ...


I really don't understand what you are going on about. 
None of the assumptions are unrealistic. Some may be less and some may be more likely but none of them have *never happened* before.

If you cannot relate it to your situation at all (and you can't or won't imagine this as a hypothetical instead) then again, don't vote.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> But the partner is not injured, until he knows...He was completely fine up to that point. The WS on the other hand is not able to live with the guilt, hence the necessity for confession.
> Never mind. I guess there is just a divergence of opinion. Which is fair enough.


Here is where I think our opinions are diverging from yours. You perceive there to be no injury - what you don't know can't hurt you.

But the majority of us are saying that there IS an injury, you just don't feel the pain yet. It's like being caught forever in that moment where the slice has just happened, but the blood hasn't welled out and the pain hasn't reached the brain.

If one person cheats, the marriage IS injured, even if the other partner never finds out, and even if they previously agreed not to tell.

If my marriage is injured, I damn well want to know, so I can make an educated review of what course of action to take. For my spouse to decide that course of action for me in my ignorance is just selfish self-preservation, possibly at my expense.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Pretending much harder now.
> Pretend Years ago My wife and I had a discussion and I told her that if she had a one night stand, I didn't want to know about it.
> Pretend that she commits the perfect crime and leaves no physical evidence.
> Pretend that her partner in crime dies of pleasure and never has the chance to brag or confess.
> ...


Are you saying that the whole exercise falls apart because you have the unique ability to spot when someone had a ONS every time, without fail? Do you really hold the view that it is impossible for a person to never find out that their spouse had an ONS?
Can't tell if you are trying to be humorous.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I have just enough time to exercise my imagination one more time.

I imagine that my spouse has a one night fling and if I never know about it everything would go on Hunky dory. 
I imagine that I have the choice to know or not know if it happened. (ouch that one really stretched my imagination)

I could not decide without knowing who it was. 
So no.

Edit: yes I do indeed hold the view that it is practically impossible to hide a betrayal of that magnitude. Only a sociopath could do it.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Here is where I think our opinions are diverging from yours. You perceive there to be no injury - what you don't know can't hurt you.
> 
> But the majority of us are saying that there IS an injury, you just don't feel the pain yet. It's like being caught forever in that moment where the slice has just happened, but the blood hasn't welled out and the pain hasn't reached the brain.
> 
> ...


yep exactly


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> It took me a bit of time to understand the concept that there isn't really such a thing as a 'universally objective truth'. I mean there is, but no one single person (or even people as a whole) can attain it.
> 
> Truth is a concept and limited by the perception of the observer(s). Her version of the events will be true to her, his version of the events will be true to him. Who is the_ final_ adjudicator? Does it make something more true if more people believe in something? (Clue: no).
> 
> That's why the sentence 'but he deserves to know the truth' sounds a bit self-indulgent to me. Whose truth? Who gets to decide what he/she deserves or what the truth even is?


I couldn’t disagree more. Liars are not telling the truth. My x tried to paint me as a physical abuser. That’s wasnt her truth or her perception of the truth is was a 100% lie. I know cause I was there and it never Happened. Most of the lies she tried to spread about me never happend. Another one she tried was I controlled her with money. Another 100%lie. Our entire marriage she paid all bills and controlled the checkbook. As a matter of fact I had not idea what I made per month until I got divorced because I never had access to the checkbook. 

People can have perspective for sure but the truth is truth


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> your poll does not ask what did you do...it asks would you want to know.....a speculation not a fact.


Yes exactly. It's a *hypothetical* question, based on how you would *choose*, not on what you *did*. And?



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I answered for myself....I would want to know
> 
> I did not have to verify...DID i want to know...or did HE want to know...as in did it happen...
> 
> ...


I didn't 'add' it, the word ONS (*One* Night Stand) was always in the original question. It' up to you how you want to define a ONS. I think the general definition is that it involves some kind of sexual activity wth somebody, once. What's the importance of what kind of sexual act he/she would be performing exactly?



Mrs. John Adams said:


> and of course that's speculation too...because who knows if it was one time or 100 times?
> 
> So your poll is would you want to know if your spouse had a one time thing?
> 
> Well...now lets speculate some more...What is a one time thing exactly? a one time kiss? a one time sexual encounter? a one time blow job? a one time on line mutual masturbation? a one time EA?


Really? Why on earth does *this *matter? It's whatever the BS would consider a sexual betrayal.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> See you are asking people to speculate and there are a million variables in your question.
> 
> and then you keep trying to adjust your question to fit your own opinion about the subject....when everything is subjective and means absolutely nothing...because the only thing that matters is that you and your wife discussed it and neither of you want to know and you are trying to validate your opinions by asking others if they agree with you.
> 
> ok...I don't agree with you...now what? Does it really matter what anyone else thinks? Does it change your opinion? Of course it doesn't. You still don't want to know if your wife cheats.


But that's good! I don't _want_ people agreeing with me! I want them to first of all *understand*, *think* and *answer* for themselves. But I think many failed at the first hurdle...(the understanding part). and maybe it's my fault.
What you mistake for 'wanting validation' is me trying to explain where some people are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the poll to others.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I don't have time to read this thread at the moment, but I would definitely want to know...for a million reasons. Knowledge is power.

That said, our marriage _may_ be better off if I didn't know. It would haunt me, and probably forever, even if I came up with the ability to forgive somehow.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Here is where I think our opinions are diverging from yours. You perceive there to be no injury - what you don't know can't hurt you.
> 
> But the majority of us are saying that there IS an injury, you just don't feel the pain yet. It's like being caught forever in that moment where the slice has just happened, but the blood hasn't welled out and the pain hasn't reached the brain.
> 
> ...


I would go one further there is also an injury to the cheater's own soul. Living a lie is a bad way to live. It is just wrong and disingenuous to assume that this will have no effect on you (the cheater) or your spouse. It will. It's like a taint on the marriage itself.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Here is where I think our opinions are diverging from yours. You perceive there to be no injury - what you don't know can't hurt you.
> 
> But the majority of us are saying that there IS an injury, you just don't feel the pain yet.
> 
> It's like being caught forever in that moment where the slice has just happened, but the blood hasn't welled out and the pain hasn't reached the brain.


Yes, exactly. It never reaches the brain. You never know about the pain and you never see or feel the cut.

The marriage may be injured *technically*, but for all practical intents and purposes, if the WS truly regretted the mistake and made all the efforts to try and make up for it, without telling the BS (which is the main premise) then from the betrayed spouse's point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether someone *from the outside* thinks their marriage is injured or not. 

Your premise is that the marriage cannot continue, unless the BS is told about the ONS. Why? 




Hopeful Cynic said:


> If one person cheats, the marriage IS injured, even if the other partner never finds out, and even if they previously agreed not to tell.
> 
> If my marriage is injured, I damn well want to know, so I can make an educated review of what course of action to take. For my spouse to decide that course of action for me in my ignorance is just selfish self-preservation, possibly at my expense.


Yes and that's a valid answer: you value this knowledge above any potential pain.

My only comment is that I would struggle to make an 'educated' review myself. What would I want to educate myself on? How truly remorseful the WS is? How bad the betrayal was? How could I quantify this? How could I ever know the full extent of the truth? How could I trust anything that comes out of her at all after this?

The way I see it, as long as the BS doesn't get rid of the WS, it's really up to the WS what happens to the marriage. And since the premise is that the couple is staying together after the ONS (emphasis on the O), I would rather let *her* decide whether she is still invested in the marriage or not, with my eyes firmly shut and not let her bother me with the confession and her own torments.

If it's not meant to be, then it won't be an ONS. It will be an ongoing affair and she won't be invested in the marriage. And then it's a totally different scenario.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I don't have time to read this thread at the moment, but *I would definitely want to know...for a million reasons. Knowledge is power.*
> 
> *That said, our marriage may be better off if I didn't know.
> It would haunt me, and probably forever, even if I came up with the ability to forgive somehow.*


Yes, so this is a cognitive dissonance that I noticed people seem to have a hard time resolving. These two statements are both valid in their own right. But not at the same time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I would go one further there is also an injury to the cheater's own soul. Living a lie is a bad way to live. It is just wrong and disingenuous to assume that this will have no effect on you (the cheater) or your spouse. It will. It's like a taint on the marriage itself.


But lets suppose it won't have any effect. (There are many ONSs which go 'unconfessed' and nothing changes *at all*. Just because we don't hear about them as often, doesn't mean they don't exist. Not all people are pure and completely secret-free. There are secrets that people harbour that are *much* bigger than this.)
You would still want to know?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Edit: yes I do indeed hold the view that it is practically impossible to hide a betrayal of that magnitude. Only a sociopath could do it.


Or someone who *really* doesn't want to hurt their spouse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I have just enough time to exercise my imagination one more time.
> 
> I imagine that my spouse has a one night fling and if I never know about it everything would go on Hunky dory.
> I imagine that I have the choice to know or not know if it happened. (ouch that one really stretched my imagination)
> ...


You can. You can say beforehand: "If you ever end up sleeping with George Clooney (or whoever) then I don't want to know. However if it's Ray across the street, you have to tell me so I can shoot him". etc 
See, that wasn't so difficult 

Why does it matter who she has an ONS with anyway? If you want to know who it was, then *you would choose that you want to know*.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, exactly. It never reaches the brain. You never know about the pain and you never see or feel the cut.


Being unaware of the cut doesn't mean that the damage isn't affecting you though. You may have reduced range of motion or something. Trying to use the body as though it isn't injured may lead to worsening it.



inmyprime said:


> The marriage may be injured *technically*, but for all practical intents and purposes, if the WS truly regretted the mistake and made all the efforts to try and make up for it, without telling the BS (which is the main premise) then from the betrayed spouse's point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether someone *from the outside* thinks their marriage is injured or not.
> 
> Your premise is that the marriage cannot continue, unless the BS is told about the ONS. Why?


I look at this in two ways. If my spouse has a ONS and doesn't tell me, that means they are untrustworthy. If I was married to an untrustworthy person, I would want to know. Not knowing that you can't trust them doesn't magically make them trustworthy.

Then, from the other side, for my spouse to be able to have a ONS and be truly remorseful afterwards means that there is something terribly wrong with them. A spouse able to learn from remorse and improve their behaviour afterwards is not going to be able to conceal the experience. There would be behavioural changes and cues that I would be unable to interpret correctly, and may leap to wrong, and dangerous conclusions.



inmyprime said:


> Yes and that's a valid answer: you value this knowledge above any potential pain.
> 
> My only comment is that I would struggle to make an 'educated' review myself. What would I want to educate myself on? How truly remorseful the WS is? How bad the betrayal was? How could I quantify this? How could I ever know the full extent of the truth? How could I trust anything that comes out of her at all after this?
> 
> ...


Ignorance does not make a problem go away. Again, being unaware of your spouse's dishonesty does not remove it.

Maybe my cynic is showing, but I just don't believe that people can have this grand epiphany of remorse and change their ways secretively. Either they have the transformative epiphany and feel the need to confess, or they haven't hit rock bottom and won't change at all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> But lets suppose it won't have any effect. (There are many ONSs which go 'unconfessed' and nothing changes *at all*. Just because we don't hear about them as often, doesn't mean they don't exist. Not all people are pure and completely secret-free. There are secrets that people harbour that are *much* bigger than this.)
> You would still want to know?


Again I don't buy the idea that nothing changes. You cheat on your spouse and your marriage changes. You now have a marriage with another person in that marriage. You have a marriage where you spouse is not the only one you have intimacy with. I get it that some people try to convince themselves everything is the same but it's not. 

I personally would want to know because if you cheat on me you don't deserve to be married to me in my mind. You have forfeited your right to be my spouse. I just wouldn't want to be married to someone like that even if I didn't know. I would feel like I wasted my love.

Besides the way my mind works I don't think it would be possible for me to have a true level of intimacy the way I want if the person I was with didn't understand loyalty the way I do. We would just be too different as people. I could not have a good marriage with someone who had a ONS because again our thinking about love and relationships would just be too different.

Bottom line is you get one life, and that would just not be good enough. I would want the chance to find someone better.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, exactly. It never reaches the brain. You never know about the pain and you never see or feel the cut.
> 
> The marriage may be injured *technically*, but for all practical intents and purposes, if the WS truly regretted the mistake and made all the efforts to try and make up for it, without telling the BS (which is the main premise) then from the betrayed spouse's point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether someone *from the outside* thinks their marriage is injured or not.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I would want to educate myself on (highlighted in red above). The marriage is flawed. It will remain flawed if I do not know. I would want to know so that I can do something about it and not leave it up to my flawed spouse. Many couples exist with the betrayed spouse not knowing and just thinking that this marriage (as ****ty as it is) is normal! If they had known they could have done something about it in this one and only life they are given.


inmyprime said:


> But lets suppose it won't have any effect. (There are many ONSs which go 'unconfessed' and nothing changes *at all*. Just because we don't hear about them as often, doesn't mean they don't exist. Not all people are pure and completely secret-free. There are secrets that people harbour that are *much* bigger than this.)
> You would still want to know?


See my comments above! These "marriages" are mistaken for being OK when in fact they are flawed and could have been (should have been) much better. Supposing it won't have any effect may be OK but that also assumes that the marriage is great. If its not, this might be a very good indicator of that fact. I do not accept that these are one off mistakes.



inmyprime said:


> Or someone who *really* doesn't want to hurt their spouse.


If they didn't really want to hurt their spouse they wouldn't have ****ed someone else!

The untrustworthiness and/or brokenness of my spouse as mentioned by someone else in this thread would be something I would want to deal with as opposed to let them carry on being untrustworthy and broken throughout my marriage.

"What the brain doesn't know, the heart doesn't feel" simply does not wash here where your marriage (lifetime commitment) is at stake! This could lead to living in a broken marriage without knowing it for the rest of your life without knowing it could be better out there.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Ignorance does not make a problem go away. Again, being unaware of your spouse's dishonesty does not remove it.


It's not supposed to 'get rid' or solve the problem. (You can't undo it). Just a thought experiment in prioritising what. My priority would be my own sanity (if the marriage was to continue).

I wonder where all the "I wish I never found out about my cheating wife" people are.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> Maybe my cynic is showing, but I just don't believe that people can have this grand epiphany of remorse and change their ways secretively. Either they have the transformative epiphany and feel the need to confess, or they haven't hit rock bottom and won't change at all.


An ONS is not 'their ways' though. We are talking about a one off digression, not a life style (not to minimise it).
It's a massive struggle between biology and rational mind sometimes. Acting on impulse is a real thing. 

I think the BS builds it up in their mind that some kind of 'transformative epiphany' is necessary for it not to happen again. It's part of the whole 'coming to terms/retribution' process for them. It could be just a matter of "****, I really ****ed up. This feels really crap. Never again." That's *also* remorse. 

And the whole knowledge thing...to me, it's the illusion of power. There is no power. The only power move is leaving the WS. But that's not always the only or best decision (with hindsight).

Not all cheaters who kept an ONS secret their whole life are serial cheaters. Would you not agree? Or you don't think those exist?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Again I don't buy the idea that nothing changes. You cheat on your spouse and your marriage changes. You now have a marriage with another person in that marriage. You have a marriage where you spouse is not the only one you have intimacy with. I get it that some people try to convince themselves everything is the same but it's not.
> 
> I personally would want to know because if you cheat on me you don't deserve to be married to me in my mind. You have forfeited your right to be my spouse. I just wouldn't want to be married to someone like that even if I didn't know. I would feel like I wasted my love.


Do you think the WS wouldn't be aware of all this afterwards? That's precisely why they might choose not to tell you. 
I find this premise very easy to believe. And actually have a couple of friends who are in happy marriages (in spite of what I know about them...and I only know because they told me and made me swear on my life). You really don't think people are capable of keeping a secret?



sokillme said:


> Besides the way my mind works I don't think it would be possible for me to have a true level of intimacy the way I want if the person I was with didn't understand loyalty the way I do. We would just be too different as people. I could not have a good marriage with someone who had a ONS because again our thinking about love and relationships would just be too different.


You are removing yourself from 'those cheaters'. It can and does happen to anybody (but not everybody). I think if it was so obvious how much people differed in their thinking and if it was something that could predict a slip up like this, then nobody would find themselves completely shocked that 'their world just came crashing down' because they found out...
You should know this! (I am sure we read the same stories...). With hindsight, it is easy to tell yourself "ah, but those were the red flags that I missed..." But it happens again and again and again....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> Exactly what I would want to educate myself on (highlighted in red above). The marriage is flawed. It will remain flawed if I do not know. I would want to know so that I can do something about it and not leave it up to my flawed spouse. Many couples exist with the betrayed spouse not knowing and just thinking that this marriage (as ****ty as it is) is normal! If they had known they could have done something about it in this one and only life they are given.
> 
> 
> See my comments above! These "marriages" are mistaken for being OK when in fact they are flawed and could have been (should have been) much better. Supposing it won't have any effect may be OK but that also assumes that the marriage is great. If its not, this might be a very good indicator of that fact. I do not accept that these are one off mistakes.
> ...


In some instances, yes. But lots of couples also live in broken marriages without ANY cheating. Other marriages are less broken with someone holding a dirty secret (and it having no effect on the marriage whatsoever). There are all kinds of marriages and all kinds of people. Why generalise?

Many are questioning the premises: but that's not so much not the point of this. They are not *that *unbelievable or rare.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Bottom line is you get one life, and that would just not be good enough. I would want the chance to find someone better.


That's great but when and how exactly are you going to find out if they are any better?
Do cheaters wear some sort of a badge to distinguish them from other, more 'regular' people?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> That's great but when and how exactly are you going to find out if they are any better?
> Do cheaters wear some sort of a badge to distinguish them from other, more 'regular' people?


I thought the question was would you want to know. The answer is yes and that was why.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I thought the question was would you want to know. The answer is yes and that was why.



Oh my head...
Question was not if they are CAPABLE of cheating!!
But if you would want them to DISCLOSE it to you, in the unlikely event that they do. (Which is not as unlikely as many presume).

The point is that NOBODY can know with absolute certainty whether they will be capable of cheating or not. That’s the main prerequisite of life and how the world is built unfortunately!
Otherwise the question makes absolutely no sense: of course if they would KNOW themselves BEFOREHAND if they are going to cheat, then they should tell so you pick someone who will never cheat!! But that’s not really realistic, is it? 

ANYONE is capable of cheating. As in, it can happen to anyone, even if they promise you the world. I kept going on about this point for so many pages and only now understand the misunderstanding!
You have to assume real world probabilities with this: when you pick someone, there’s actually close to 50/50 chance that one of the partners will cheat in a relationship (and you don’t really have any reliable way of knowing which side you are picking because there ISN’T a reliable way of picking someone who will definitely not cheat). 
You don’t ASSUME they will cheat automatically, but you acknowledge the odds that it MIGHT happen.

Only THEN do you ask yourself the question how would you deal with the aftermath (knowing versus not knowing).

Even if that chance is 20% or 10% that the picked partner will end up cheating, this question is IMO worth pondering about (and discussing with the partner).

And btw if they get all upset and start saying ‘oh but how can you even ask this? You KNOW i would NEVER do that!’ 
Then you know you potentially picked the wrong ticket...
You can never know with certainty. That’s the point. I didn’t think it was even worth mentioning this as it’s such an obvious fact of life.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Or someone who *really* doesn't want to hurt their spouse.


This is the cognitive dissonance you are searching for. The person who *really* doesn't want to hurt their spouse, but can still have a ONS.

But as you repeatedly tell us this is about how the betrayed party feels. This is to fear pain so much that you chose to divorce reality.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

I voted that I'd want to know.
I'd definitely want to know. I'm a black/white....type of guy on this issue. Any type of affair/cheating is an instant divorce, we are done, you disgust me type of situation.

I'd want to know so I could get out and leave them. I'd never want anything to do with a cheater. I don't care if it was one time and God already guaranteed me she'd be faithful for the rest of my days. She'd disgust me, I wouldn't want anything to do with her again. 

I'd definitely not want to be duped into staying with someone I'd not want to be with. 

I don't care if we've been together one year or 30, you sexually betray me we are finished. "Working it out" isn't even on the table.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> But that's non-sensical because if it was such a calculated decision, many people wouldn't regret it afterwards.
> That's why I said earlier that for many people (at least 50%), infidelity is semi-involuntary. That's what the facts show.


Nope. People regret calculated decisions all the time. Semi-voluntary? Rape is involuntary on the part of the person being raped. Consensual sex is 100% VOLUNTARY. That's purely a cop out and shift of blame. People have free will. Asserting cheating is semi-involuntary is laughable. Unless the cheater has some serious, real mental illness maybe. Otherwise? Lol.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> There is no 'moral choice', only an expressed personal preference.
> 
> You are trying to look at the situation from an outsiders vantage point, observing these two scenarios and trying to take a 'moral stance' on the situation. This isn't the purpose.
> To understand the question of the poll, you have to imagine yourself being the BS (with the given pre requisites) and choose what you'd prefer. It's a hypothetical situation, based on real life.
> The one thing that is not so realistic (for the BS), is having the *ability *to choose (unless you discussed your preference with the spouse beforehand). So the question assumes being able to choose: to know or not to know.


I was betrayed by someone I loved and thought was "the one." Knowing hurt terribly, but it also gave me answers to why things had felt so strange, and it gave me the information I needed to decide what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.

And yes, when you repeatedly call telling and people who tell "selfish," YOU are making a moral judgment.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> This is the cognitive dissonance you are searching for. The person who *really* doesn't want to hurt their spouse, but can still have a ONS.


I don’t see any dissonance here at all. You are conflating two things at once. The ONS *happened* in those scenarios. Nothing anyone can do about it anymore to undo it.

And the other issue is that the WS did not intentionally set out to hurt their spouse by cheating.
Ask any WS if hurting their spouse featured anywhere in their thinking while they were doing it. 
They will probably say that they weren’t really thinking in that moment.



Mr. Nail said:


> But as you repeatedly tell us this is about how the betrayed party feels. This is to fear pain so much that you chose to divorce reality.



Yes, basically. Not so much fear as not wanting the pain. I don’t spend nights awake worrying that I don’t know what the other side of the moon looks like either.



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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

The notion that "you would be happy and wouldn't be injured because you wouldn't know" doesn't work for me. You can be damaged and hurt without being conscious of it. Cheating, whether made to be known to the cheated or not, damages the betrayed spouse. What about cancer, or heart disease that you don't know about? You feel fine. You're happy and in ignorant bliss. Maybe for years. You're still being damaged. Yes, I understand being cheated on probably isn't going to result in your ultimate demise. But the premise stands - just because you aren't _aware_ you're being damaged doesn't mean you _aren't_ being damaged.

How about a child that's molested while they sleep and aren't aware of it? They aren't being damaged or hurt, because they aren't aware of it? Ignorance is still bliss?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I was betrayed by someone I loved and thought was "the one." Knowing hurt terribly, but it also gave me answers to why things had felt so strange, and it gave me the information I needed to decide what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, when you repeatedly call telling and people who tell "selfish," YOU are making a moral judgment.



I wasn’t. I specifically said that I personally would find it selfish. What other people do or feel is up to them.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm also curious about the people here claiming they wouldn't be all that bothered about it and would laugh it off. Would the people's spouses feel the same if the cheating were the other way around? Would they "laugh off" _your_ cheating?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> And the other issue is that the WS did not intentionally set out to hurt their spouse by cheating. Ask any WS if hurting their spouse featured anywhere in their thinking while they were doing it.
> They will probably say that they weren’t really thinking in that moment.


Not thinking in the moment is not an excuse. 

If you could do something fun and exciting, but it would result in a high probability that your child would die, you would definitely not do it. There wouldn't be a moment where you didn't think about it. Because your child is that important to you. 

Your spouse should be equally as important.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, exactly. It never reaches the brain. You never know about the pain and you never see or feel the cut.
> 
> The marriage may be injured *technically*, but for all practical intents and purposes, if the WS truly regretted the mistake and made all the efforts to try and make up for it, without telling the BS (which is the main premise) then from the betrayed spouse's point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether someone *from the outside* thinks their marriage is injured or not.
> 
> ...


Not knowing about the pain doesn't mean you aren't injured and/or damaged.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> Scenario 1: Wife has an ONS, realises she made a terrible mistake, confesses to the husband, they decide to 'work through it', reconcile and their marriage stays strong until the end.
> 
> Scenario 2: Wife has an ONS, realises she made a terrible mistake, does not confess to the husband, but decides to devote herself to the marriage until the end.


For me, this is an easy answer. Scenario 1 just wouldn't be possible. I don't believe I could work through it. I know that it would eat me up for the rest of my life. The only way that I could have a happy marriage after her ONS is with Scenario 2.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm willing to admit that I prefer pain to ignorance. This is the hypothetical choice you are asking of the BS. I have made this choice many times. I have read 2 very good books about this choice. In this case specifically I chose pain over ignorance.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm willing to admit that I prefer pain to ignorance. This is the hypothetical choice you are asking of the BS. I have made this choice many times. I have read 2 very good books about this choice. In this case specifically I chose pain over ignorance.


When I think of a couple going through a tough time and someone cheats, I have some sympathy. I understand that people make mistakes. That people aren't perfect. I see that his can happen in certain situations. That people can screw up, learn from it.

But when I think of my own relationship, I am not so rational. So it would be painful and I wouldn't be able to get past it. I would be thinking how many times this happened. When it is going to happen again. etc. etc. etc. 

For me, and us, it would be better if I just didn't know. 

Of course this is all based on it happening only once and that the marriage is good. If she was cheating multiple times and I just wasn't aware, I would see that differently. I would see that as our marriage being a lie.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I respect your choice Sam. I know that my view of pain is not shared by all.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

SadSamIAm said:


> When I think of a couple going through a tough time and someone cheats, I have some sympathy. I understand that people make mistakes. That people aren't perfect. I see that his can happen in certain situations. That people can screw up, learn from it.
> 
> But when I think of my own relationship, I am not so rational. So it would be painful and I wouldn't be able to get past it. I would be thinking how many times this happened. When it is going to happen again. etc. etc. etc.
> 
> ...


Burning your toast is a mistake. Miscalculating your taxes is a mistake. Cheating is not a mistake. People _know_ what cheating is and how wrong it is when they do it. They _know_ it's a betrayal and they _know_ it will damage their spouse and their marriage. If you go into something _knowing_ it's utterly wrong, and do it anyway, it's not a mistake. It's a conscious choice to put your selfish wants above everything else.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I really don't understand what you are going on about.
> None of the assumptions are unrealistic. Some may be less and some may be more likely but none of them have *never happened* before.
> 
> If you cannot relate it to your situation at all (and you can't or won't imagine this as a hypothetical instead) then again, don't vote.


You aren't by chance that elusive fifth dentist are you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SadSamIAm said:


> For me, this is an easy answer. Scenario 1 just wouldn't be possible. I don't believe I could work through it. I know that it would eat me up for the rest of my life. *The only way that I could have a happy marriage after her ONS is with Scenario 2.*


Yes, exactly. It's the same for me.

Ok, so I think in conclusion of this car-crash of a poll...It seems that either I have not explained the premises very well or people find them generally unbelievable. Perhaps their situation and experience with infidelity was so vastly different from the premises, that it makes no sense to them. Otherwise I can't really explain the replies (most of which are based on modified premises, e.g. like not staying together etc).

The premises that people seem to have trouble believing or working with are (among others):

- that a couple cannot continue staying together and have a relatively normal and happy marriage after infidelity

- that a BS can be remorseful without having to go through confession

- that it's impossible to keep an ONS a secret

- that it's impossible to only have *one* ONS (I am still having trouble understanding that one)

- that it's impossible for the BS not to find out

- that it's impossible for the WS to want to be committed to the marriage after they realised they made a terrible mistake with an ONS (even though cases like MJA's case, clearly show that it is possible)

There are probably many others that I forgot to list but the discussion seems to revolve around the likelihood or validity of the premises and not so much about the reasons why somebody would vote a certain way *within those premises*. I don't really see what's so unrealistic about these two scenarios (I never said they are likely or the most common scenarios, just not unrealistic. The most common scenario if found out is still probably divorce but it's not included in the two scenarios. So people who will divorce after discovery shouldn't have voted). But perhaps I am missing something here.

I can understand that when something happens to you in real life a certain way, then perhaps it is impossible to then relate to a purely hypothetical scenario that differs from what happened to you personally.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I was betrayed by someone I loved and thought was "the one." Knowing hurt terribly, but it also gave me answers to why things had felt so strange, and it gave me the information I needed to decide what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.
> 
> And yes, when you repeatedly call telling and people who tell "selfish," YOU are making a moral judgment.


Sorry to hear. Was it an ONS or an affair?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, exactly. It never reaches the brain. You never know about the pain and you never see or feel the cut.
> 
> The marriage may be injured *technically*, but for all practical intents and purposes, if the WS truly regretted the mistake and *made all the efforts to try and make up for it, without telling the BS *(which is the main premise) then from the betrayed spouse's point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether someone *from the outside* thinks their marriage is injured or not.
> 
> ...


This in and of itself would be deceitful, as the efforts to make it up were not driven out of love or anything like that, but to assuage the guilty party's conscience. Thus misleading the betrayed as to the motives behind their 100% committed relationship.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> The notion that "you would be happy and wouldn't be injured because you wouldn't know" doesn't work for me. You can be damaged and hurt without being conscious of it. Cheating, whether made to be known to the cheated or not, damages the betrayed spouse. What about cancer, or heart disease that you don't know about? You feel fine. You're happy and in ignorant bliss. Maybe for years. You're still being damaged. Yes, I understand being cheated on probably isn't going to result in your ultimate demise. But the premise stands - just because you aren't _aware_ you're being damaged doesn't mean you _aren't_ being damaged.
> 
> How about a child that's molested while they sleep and aren't aware of it? They aren't being damaged or hurt, because they aren't aware of it? Ignorance is still bliss?


This is tricky to answer because it might be misunderstood...but of course a child is hurt *physically* if they are abused physically, even if they are not aware of it. However emotionally, you can only get hurt if you are aware of it. Unless the body has perhaps a way to take things in emotionally, while the mind is unconscious. (Maybe it can, I don't know, but I have never heard of it).

Of course you can also become aware later, sometimes years later, that you have been abused emotionally while not being aware of it fully at the time.

However when you are being cheated on, if you never become aware of it, how can you be hurt emotionally? Someone would have to make that judgement that you were hurt and it can't be *you*, because you know nothing about it. The only person who knows that you were abused is the WS (and their ONS partner). So obviously the ONS partner won't give a **** but the WS will always know. And if he/she is remorseful they will have to live with that guilt.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> This in and of itself would be deceitful, as the efforts to make it up were not driven out of love or anything like that, but to assuage the guilty party's conscience. Thus misleading the betrayed as to the motives behind their 100% committed relationship.


Yes you are correct that the 'make up' process of the WS will be driven mainly by guilt. But the WS will have to *love* the BS in the first place to be *able* to feel guilty about the incident in the first place. (Someone will point out that how can you love someone if you can have an ONS on them? I believe you can, because people do stupid things sometimes without thinking and sometimes without realising the full extent of the consequences from their actions. This is not supposed to be an excuse (because I personally probably would *not *be able to forgive them). It's what I believe sometimes happens. And that's the reason why i wouldn't want to know.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> Nope. People regret calculated decisions all the time. Semi-voluntary? Rape is involuntary on the part of the person being raped. Consensual sex is 100% VOLUNTARY. That's purely a cop out and shift of blame. People have free will. Asserting cheating is semi-involuntary is laughable. Unless the cheater has some serious, real mental illness maybe. Otherwise? Lol.


Then why can't so many people help themselves? Because they are bad people? because they made a calculated decision to hurt their spouse deliberately and in a calculated/malicious way?

I didn't say it was completely involuntary. Just that it's obviously not as simple as that. Free will is sometimes not as free as it is frequently advertised...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SadSamIAm said:


> Not thinking in the moment is not an excuse.


I never said it was. And I don't think it IS an excuse. As i said, I am not sure I would be able to forgive. I keep going back and forth on this myself.



SadSamIAm said:


> If you could do something fun and exciting, but it would result in a high probability that your child would die, you would definitely not do it. There wouldn't be a moment where you didn't think about it. Because your child is that important to you.
> 
> Your spouse should be equally as important.


Yet parents to stupid things quite frequently unfortunately. 
However comparing death of a child with infidelity is not really appropriate. Shoud infidelity result in death, it would most likely be the death of the OM (or OW) and/or BS.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hardwired said:


> Nope. People regret calculated decisions all the time. Semi-voluntary? Rape is involuntary on the part of the person being raped. Consensual sex is 100% VOLUNTARY. That's purely a cop out and shift of blame. People have free will. Asserting cheating is semi-involuntary is laughable. Unless the cheater has some serious, real mental illness maybe. Otherwise? Lol.


I so agree. its a choice to cheat.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm willing to admit that I prefer pain to ignorance. This is the hypothetical choice you are asking of the BS. I have made this choice many times. I have read 2 very good books about this choice. In this case specifically I chose pain over ignorance.


Yep, reasonable answer.

The next question is then assessing what one can actually achieve with that knowledge (given that you will then decide to R with the spouse, in that hypothetical scenario).

In the scenario where you would actually prefer to break up with the spouse if they cheated on you, then I agree, one *should* know in order to have that choice available to them.

But then you have to be REALLY sure that that's what you are going to do. Because what often happens is that the BS changes their mind and can't or won't break up with their BS. I personally would want to avoid ending up in THAT situation because I *really* am not sure that I could break up over a meaningless ONS. the rational mind is telling me that I should. But i worry my emotions will overrule this decision.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I so agree. its a choice to cheat.


Yes it is. And from what I observed so far, a semi-involuntary choice


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t see any dissonance here at all. You are conflating two things at once. The ONS *happened* in those scenarios. Nothing anyone can do about it anymore to undo it.
> 
> *And the other issue is that the WS did not intentionally set out to hurt their spouse by cheating.
> Ask any WS if hurting their spouse featured anywhere in their thinking while they were doing it.
> ...


And this right here is precisely why I would want to know. The ONS would be a symptom of a person who is reckless and lacks self control. If the draw of the moment was strong enough to override, and outweigh me and all that the marriage stands for, then that person is dangerous, and I do not want to be married to them.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Sorry to hear. Was it an ONS or an affair?


It was an affair, though we were not married. We had a LDR for awhile, and unbeknownst to me he had a whole other girlfriend. 

It hurt, but once I knew I ran for the hills. And now I am married to someone wonderful.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> And this right here is precisely why I would want to know. The ONS would be a symptom of a person who is reckless and lacks self control. If the draw of the moment was strong enough to override, and outweigh me and all that the marriage stands for, then that person is dangerous, and I do not want to be married to them.



In other words, you would always divorce a cheater, regardless of their reasons etc. So neither of the options fit.

I do completely see this point of view. I really do. Where I have more trouble being 100% sure that that is what I would ACTUALLY do is putting a face of my wife onto that cheater. It immediately becomes less of a straightforward rational choice (to divorce) and more an emotional response (not 100% sure that that’s what would happen, if it comes to it).

I think there’s a big difference in talking about a faceless cheater versus an actual person you devoted your whole life to.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> In other words, you would always divorce a cheater, regardless of their reasons etc. So neither of the options fit.
> 
> I do completely see this point of view. I really do. Where I have more trouble being 100% sure that that is what I would ACTUALLY do is putting a face of my wife onto that cheater. It immediately becomes less of a straightforward rational choice (to divorce) and more an emotional response (not 100% sure that that’s what would happen, if it comes to it).
> 
> ...


Not so much what I would do so much as what I have done. When I found out about my ex-wife's affair, I filed the next day without a second thought. I love my current wife, but would do the same thing if I found out she had an affair or ONS.

I know myself well enough that I would never be able to trust them again to the level that I need to be married to someone. I also know that there is nothing they could reasonably do to ever make amends to where our relationship would be such that I could be married to them, so in a way, I guess divorcing them would be the more merciful option for them.

I ask for very little in a relationship, and the things I do ask would be very simple things for someone to whom I wish to be married.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> Not so much what I would do so much as what I have done. When I found out about my ex-wife's affair, I filed the next day without a second thought. I love my current wife, but would do the same thing if I found out she had an affair or ONS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, it’s good to be able to know yourself that well. I don’t think I’m there yet myself.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> This is tricky to answer because it might be misunderstood...but of course a child is hurt *physically* if they are abused physically, even if they are not aware of it. However emotionally, you can only get hurt if you are aware of it. Unless the body has perhaps a way to take things in emotionally, while the mind is unconscious. (Maybe it can, I don't know, but I have never heard of it).
> 
> Of course you can also become aware later, sometimes years later, that you have been abused emotionally while not being aware of it fully at the time.
> 
> However when you are being cheated on, if you never become aware of it, how can you be hurt emotionally? Someone would have to make that judgement that you were hurt and it can't be *you*, because you know nothing about it. The only person who knows that you were abused is the WS (and their ONS partner). So obviously the ONS partner won't give a **** but the WS will always know. And if he/she is remorseful they will have to live with that guilt.


In this context you are using "hurt" as a physical symptom. What if that child is not physically "hurt" by being molested? What if they are simply touched? They don't know about it - so by your logic, they are not "hurt" emotionally OR physically. It doesn't wash. The victim (of sexual abuse or infidelity), whether aware or not, is being damaged, and _abused_. Cheating on your spouse is abusive. It abuses their trust, it abuses the vows that were made, it abuses the marriage...it abuses _them_. 

Not being conscious of abuse, or hurt, or whatever you want to call it, does not make the abuse or damage not real.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Then why can't so many people help themselves? Because they are bad people? because they made a calculated decision to hurt their spouse deliberately and in a calculated/malicious way?
> 
> I didn't say it was completely involuntary. Just that it's obviously not as simple as that. Free will is sometimes not as free as it is frequently advertised...


They _can_ help themselves. They _choose_ not to. Bad people? I would say people are defined by their actions. So I'll let you figure that one out.

I know you didn't say completely involuntary. It IS completely voluntary. 

Free will is just that. Cheating is a conscious choice, made by a conscious mind. It's a calculated decision to engage in sexual activity with someone other than your spouse. Anything else would be rape.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I so agree. its a choice to cheat.


And a _calculated_ choice at that. I am going to remove my panties, and let this person put their penis inside my body. That doesn't happen by mistake, or accidentally, or involuntarily.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes it is. And from what I observed so far, a semi-involuntary choice


That's not a thing.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

hardwired said:


> They _can_ help themselves. They _choose_ not to. Bad people? I would say people are defined by their actions. So I'll let you figure that one out.
> 
> I know you didn't say completely involuntary. It IS completely voluntary.
> 
> Free will is just that. Cheating is a conscious choice, made by a conscious mind. It's a calculated decision to engage in sexual activity with someone other than your spouse. Anything else would be rape.


I think too that they think the "big choice" is getting into bed. By the time someone is standing in a hotel room, they have already made dozens of choices along the way to get there. The best time to make the right choice is at the FRONT end of that whole slippery slope. When you decide to add them on Facebook. When you decide lunch is no big deal. When you know you wore that new dress because "he" would be in the office today. Lots of choices that build on each other.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I think too that they think the "big choice" is getting into bed. By the time someone is standing in a hotel room, they have already made dozens of choices along the way to get there. The best time to make the right choice is at the FRONT end of that whole slippery slope. When you decide to add them on Facebook. When you decide lunch is no big deal. When you know you wore that new dress because "he" would be in the office today. Lots of choices that build on each other.


Right. And these are all voluntary calculations.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> - snip-The *next *question is then assessing what one can actually achieve with that knowledge (given that you will then decide to R with the spouse, in that hypothetical scenario).


 That would be a thread jack and I refuse to go down that rabbit hole with you, especially since you have already listed the first "given".



inmyprime said:


> -ship- Because what often happens is that the BS changes their mind and can't or won't break up with their BS. I personally would want to avoid ending up in THAT situation -snip-


I agree you should avoid breaking up with yourself, just the rent and living arrangements would be prohibitive. Let it be said that I am not surprised that you list this as a possible outcome.

On a more serious note, I do see situations where a ONS would not lead to divorce. I do not think that long term deception is a good way to run a relationship.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> And a _calculated_ choice at that. I am going to remove my panties, and let this person put their penis inside my body. That doesn't happen by mistake, or accidentally, or involuntarily.



So how come animals can do it then? I never heard of a frog  making a calculated choice DECIDING to do it doggy style. They just hop on and do it...No calculations.

Yes there is choice and there is choice. One has to be able to differentiate and understand the mechanisms of making a choice in the first place. ‘Semi-voluntary’ was probably not a perfect word but it’s obviously a choice that many have difficulty having full control over.

Yes I know it will sound to many like ONS apologism.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I agree you should avoid breaking up with yourself, just the rent and living arrangements would be prohibitive. Let it be said that I am not surprised that you list this as a possible outcome.



I am getting confused from all the BS 



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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> So how come animals can do it then? I never heard of a frog  making a calculated choice DECIDING to do it doggy style. They just hop on and do it...No calculations.
> 
> Yes there is choice and there is choice. One has to be able to differentiate and understand the mechanisms of making a choice in the first place. ‘Semi-voluntary’ was probably not a perfect word but it’s obviously a choice that many have difficulty having full control over.
> 
> ...


Because humans are not frogs.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> ‘Semi-voluntary’ was probably not a perfect word but it’s obviously a choice that many have difficulty having full control over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But they do have full control over it. And using that full control, they choose to have sex outside the marriage. It's actually painfully simple.

Take me for example. I had ample opportunity to cheat. And never get caught. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship (I was the abused, not the abuser). I could have had sex with attractive women who were not my wife and get away with it. I didn't. Never. Not one time. Because I _chose_ *not to do it*. It's binary. I either do this, or do not do this. One is right, one is wrong. Both are under the full control of the person presented with that choice.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> So how come animals can do it then? I never heard of a frog  making a calculated choice DECIDING to do it doggy style. They just hop on and do it...No calculations.
> 
> Yes there is choice and there is choice. One has to be able to differentiate and understand the mechanisms of making a choice in the first place. ‘Semi-voluntary’ was probably not a perfect word but it’s obviously a choice that many have difficulty having full control over.
> 
> ...


You lost me when you compared us to frogs lol

No, seriously, I have seen dogs in heat and such. The guy dog can't hump her unless she let's him...unless he wants to get bitten lol. The animal analogy as reason a woman might sudden;t have a man insider her falls flat.

Let's just be honest, when someone has an affair, they DO make a choice.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> You lost me when you compared us to frogs lol
> 
> No, seriously, I have seen dogs in heat and such. The guy dog can't hump her unless she let's him...unless he wants to get bitten lol. The animal analogy as reason a woman might sudden;t have a man insider her falls flat.
> 
> Let's just be honest, when someone has an affair, they DO make a choice.


Right. Dogs don't drive cars or write computer programs either. We may be mammals, but we're not animals. Well, not ALL of us.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

hardwired said:


> Right. Dogs don't drive cars or write computer programs either. We may be mammals, but we're not animals. Well, not ALL of us.



Maybe YOUR dog doesn't write code....


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Maybe YOUR dog doesn't write code....


Mine seems to enjoy writing code, but it's pretty embarrassing because after a few years of doing it, he's still not that great at it.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Maybe YOUR dog doesn't write code....


Lol! No he just eats drywall. Like most programmers.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

Steve1000 said:


> Mine seems to enjoy writing code, but it's pretty embarrassing because after a few years of doing it, he's still not that great at it.


Lol!


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

I voted that I would absolutely want to know, but I no longer would want the details. I would just turn my focus to life after divorce.


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## Clockwork (May 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> But again, this is a new variable that you have just inserted. Yes, it can and does happen sometimes but that's part not of the poll question (the assumption is, that nobody knows apart from the WS and whoever she had the ONS with).


Perhaps, or maybe more do, who knows. That's the thing, your mind will be asking that after you find out. Did her/his best friend know? Mother? Father? Sister? Brother? Who else was hiding it from you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> In this context you are using "hurt" as a physical symptom. What if that child is not physically "hurt" by being molested? What if they are simply touched? They don't know about it - so by your logic, they are not "hurt" emotionally OR physically. It doesn't wash. The victim (of sexual abuse or infidelity), whether aware or not, is being damaged, and _abused_. Cheating on your spouse is abusive. It abuses their trust, it abuses the vows that were made, it abuses the marriage...it abuses _them_.
> 
> Not being conscious of abuse, or hurt, or whatever you want to call it, does not make the abuse or damage not real.


Still doesn't work. If someone touched them, then they will know it and be aware of it. Even if they don't realise what that means, it's still abuse.

The equivalent example would be if, say, you were unconscious and another person was shouting abusive phrases at you: I wouldn't view it as you getting abused because you are entirely not aware that any of it is going on.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Still doesn't work. If someone touched them, then they will know it and be aware of it. Even if they don't realise what that means, it's still abuse.
> 
> The equivalent example would be if, say, you were unconscious and another person was shouting abusive phrases at you: I wouldn't view it as you getting abused because you are entirely not aware that any of it is going on.


No, I said they were asleep when it happened - unaware. And that has happened.

Same could and does happen to someone who is passed out from drugs or alcohol.

So, they're unaware, and never knew it happened. They're not being hurt?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

A few years ago I was diagnosed with cancer due to being treated for something else that is fairly routine. Had I not had that fairly routine incident, I would not have known. This is a type of cancer that can be asymptomatic until it is advanced. In other words, I could have lived with cancer in my body never knowing it at all. Until it was too like to do anything, that is. I would have had a happy life believing I was help the period I'm glad I found out and that the doctor found it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> Because humans are not frogs.


Some are a little bit more frog-like than others...

I think I didn't make the conundrum of 'choice' clear. It's not so much that some choices are 'semi-involuntary', it's more that many decisions we make are completely irrational and highly biased. Couple that with hormones and one of the strongest built-in evolutionary forces to procreate and there's no wonder why so many 'rational' people do stupid and irrational things, such as risk everything for a drunken ONS.

Have you read Kahneman's books? He got a Nobel Prize for this insight.

_"There's the deliberate, logical part of your mind that is capable of analysing a problem and coming up with a rational answer.

But then there is another system in your mind that is intuitive, fast and automatic. This fast way of thinking is incredibly powerful, but totally hidden. It is so powerful, it is actually responsible for most of the things that you say, do, think and believe.

*And yet you have no idea this is happening. This system is your hidden auto-pilot, and it has a mind of its own. It is sometimes known as the stranger within."*_

How do we really make decisions? - BBC News

The article explains it better but I'd encourage people to read the book 'Thinking, fast and slow'.

In any case, whether it's rational or irrational, it doesn't change anything about the question and the premises all that much. Lets try and stick to topic.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Some are a little bit more frog-like than others...
> 
> I think I didn't make the conundrum of 'choice' clear. It's not so much that some choices are 'semi-involuntary', it's more that many decisions we make are completely irrational and highly biased. Couple that with hormones and one of the strongest built-in evolutionary forces to procreate and there's no wonder why so many 'rational' people do stupid and irrational things, such as risk everything for a drunken ONS.
> 
> ...


The topic is too complex and unrealistic to ignore these things. 

All of those quotes read as cop outs to me. People who cheat are simply choosing their immediate wants and desires over all else. That's it. They are simply taking what they want with no regard for anything or anyone but said wants. I was able to make the choice not to cheat, even in conditions that were ripe and ready for the picking. It would have been wrong on countless fronts. I _knew_ this. Cheaters _know_ this. They _choose_ to cheat anyway. It's not some mysterious lizard brain, primal urge that takes control of their bodies and minds. It's selfishness. It's self-centeredness. It's cruelty. It's abusive. It's of low character. And it's a conscious choice.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> You lost me when you compared us to frogs lol
> 
> No, seriously, I have seen dogs in heat and such. The guy dog can't hump her unless she let's him...unless he wants to get bitten lol. The animal analogy as reason a woman might sudden;t have a man insider her falls flat.
> 
> Let's just be honest, when someone has an affair, they DO make a choice.


I meant with the analogy that just because a couple had sex, doesn't mean it was a 'calculated' decision. Because frogs cannot calculate yet they also have sex...

Is there any particular animal you'd prefer me to compare you with instead?  Happy to oblige.

Affair: yes, that's a bit different again. Because it's an ongoing thing; you have more time to *think* about it (with the rational part of your mind), about the consequences to make decisions that resemble more rational choices. But an ONS, I can easily see a situation where someone got drunk and lost control and didn't think that much about it. Yes technically they 'choose' and consented to it etc (lets hope), but it was not due to the same decision-making process as cultivating an affair. An ONS is certainly not 'calculating'.

An ONS is still a ****ty thing to do, I am not trying to excuses. I am talking about shades of grey (not 50), rather than black and white. Some view it as black and white and it's fine, I have no problem with that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> No, I said they were asleep when it happened - unaware. And that has happened.
> 
> Same could and does happen to someone who is passed out from drugs or alcohol.
> 
> So, they're unaware, and never knew it happened. They're not being hurt?


They are: stuff is happening to them, physically, even if mind is not taking it in properly.
Getting abuse shouted at them: then no.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I meant with the analogy that just because a couple had sex, doesn't mean it was a 'calculated' decision. Because frogs cannot calculate yet they also have sex...
> 
> Is there any particular animal you'd prefer me to compare you with instead?  Happy to oblige.


No because there is no animal on the planet that has the consciousness that humans have. No animals have the cognizance that humans have, not even close.



inmyprime said:


> An ONS is certainly not 'calculating'.


Sure it is. You can't take a penis into your body willingly without calculation. It involves removing your underwear, spreading your legs, and allowing the penis to enter into you, and out, in, and out (obviously in the case of a woman, or gay man).


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> They are: stuff is happening to them, physically, even if mind is not taking it in properly.
> Getting abuse shouted at them: then no.


No. If someone is unconscious, asleep, they are not aware. They are unconscious - unaware by the very definition of the word. You can weave and bob around that all you want. It doesn't change the fact. They would wake up and go on with the rest of their life NEVER KNOWING IT HAPPENED. They weren't hurt because they were unaware?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> A few years ago I was diagnosed with cancer due to being treated for something else that is fairly routine. Had I not had that fairly routine incident, I would not have known. This is a type of cancer that can be asymptomatic until it is advanced. In other words, I could have lived with cancer in my body never knowing it at all. Until it was too like to do anything, that is. I would have had a happy life believing I was help the period I'm glad I found out and that the doctor found it.


Yes, I didn't want to bring in that type of example, in case someone was affected...
But it's a good example why it is a very different premise: finding out that you have a certain condition, will enable you to have appropriate treatment options and completely alter the course of the illness.
The premise of the question in the opening post was that knowing doesn't change or alter the outcome in any significant way: the couple stays together (either with confession or without).

I hope you are clear now (from the condition).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> No. If someone is unconscious, asleep, they are not aware. They are unconscious - unaware by the very definition of the word. You can weave and bob around that all you want. It doesn't change the fact. They would wake up and go on with the rest of their life NEVER KNOWING IT HAPPENED. They weren't hurt because they were unaware?


There is no chance that if someone assaults you in sleep, you won't know about it after you wake up.
But actually yes, you are right, if the premise is the same: that there really is no difference and no marks left in any way and the victim wakes up and has no knowledge of the assault taking place, then *as far as the victim is concerned*, they weren't assaulted.
However, they were obviously assaulted from an outsiders (objective) point of view. I think you are just proving my point?

I never said that if the BS is not aware and has no knowledge of the ONS, it means that the ONS never took place. I always maintained that the ONS didn't take place *from BS's point of view*. And I specifically made no moral judgements regarding whether it is right or wrong to have an ONS. 
(I am very clearly against cheating in general.)

Now, would I want to know about the assault? Probably: so that the criminal can get haunted down and brought to justice so that it would potentially prevent it from happening to someone else.

I don't see the kind of equivalent retribution can be achieved if I get told about the ONS (and then still decide to forgive and stay together).


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I can see one reason that knowing about the affair even if you planned to stay together could be a positive. I will likely get blasted for it, but it is valid none the list. Even a 1 night stand is not usually something that happens completely out of the blue when everything is wonderfully fine and unicorns are flying through rainbow skies. If someone is willing to have a 1 night stand on a business trip, then something is amiss either in them or in the relationship or both. And whether we like it or not, the statistics tell us that people who are completely content in their relationships do not cheat. So sometimes the horror of an affair coming to light can bring about change in a person and in a relationship. I am not saying an affair or a 1 night stand is ever a good thing. No, I am not. But people who are willing to be rational should be able to agree that sometimes when a tremadoc a vent happens in a relationship, even if it is B trail, it causes people to take stock. I know the rule of marriage forums is that all marriages are happy and that the only person with any flaw in a marriage is the cheater. In real life, statistics do not bear that out. It's wrong to cheat no matter what, but whether we like it or not a bad marriage can make one vilnerable.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> There is no chance that if someone assaults you in sleep, you won't know about it after you wake up.


This is unequivocally not true.

Case in point. If not for the video evidence, she never would have known.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...assault-jailed-prison-newcastle-a7874806.html

How often does this go down and there is no video evidence, and it's never discovered by the victim? Obviously, it happens.

Why are you being obtuse about this?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> No because there is no animal on the planet that has the consciousness that humans have. No animals have the cognizance that humans have, not even close.
> 
> Sure it is. You can't take a penis into your body willingly without calculation. It involves removing your underwear, spreading your legs, and allowing the penis to enter into you, and out, in, and out (obviously in the case of a woman, or gay man).


Ok, I guess we are stuck (pardon the pun) on the definition of what exactly a 'calculating' decision is. 
Animals can do the same as you described, without the type of consciousness that we have. I don't see what you are saying: just because we have consciousness, the sex and the decision leading up to it is somehow more....calculating?

In a way yes (because humans would have more awareness than a frog) but within the context of an ONS, it's still a significantly more impulsive decision, compared to, say, deliberating and gathering information over the course of the year which school your kids are going to attend.

See, that's why the chances are actually pretty high that after a stupid, drunken ONS, the WS will actually have some time to process it and come to the more rational realisation that they really really ****ed up, royally. That realisation (IMO) is not going to hit them during or after the confession, but some time after the act.

Affairs are more 'calculating' yes, an ONS, not as much. We are talking about degrees again, not an either or. And I understand why some people don't find it comfortable differentiating ('cheating is cheating' etc) and respond in a black or white manner accordingly. It doesn't really make as much sense to me, but I understand why others choose to view it that way.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

yes, I agree (and said on the other thread) that an ONS could easily be a wake up call (and actually bring a net benefit to the marriage in the long term. Watch who is going to get blasted now.) Like any tragedy: it can bring people closer together or break them apart.




personofinterest said:


> I can see one reason that knowing about the affair even if you planned to stay together could be a positive. I will likely get blasted for it, but it is valid none the list. Even a 1 night stand is not usually something that happens completely out of the blue when everything is wonderfully fine and unicorns are flying through rainbow skies. If someone is willing to have a 1 night stand on a business trip, then something is amiss either in them or in the relationship or both. And whether we like it or not, the statistics tell us that people who are completely content in their relationships do not cheat. So sometimes the horror of an affair coming to light can bring about change in a person and in a relationship. I am not saying an affair or a 1 night stand is ever a good thing. No, I am not. But people who are willing to be rational should be able to agree that sometimes when a tremadoc a vent happens in a relationship, even if it is B trail, it causes people to take stock. I know the rule of marriage forums is that all marriages are happy and that the only person with any flaw in a marriage is the cheater. In real life, statistics do not bear that out. It's wrong to cheat no matter what, but whether we like it or not a bad marriage can make one vilnerable.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

One of the differences between an affair and a ONS is the speed with which (bad) decisions are calculated and made. In the case of the ONS there would have been underlying feelings to submit to one's desires if presented with the opportunity and when it presents itself, the bad decisions to cheat are made very quickly. Trying to brush it off as something that is animalistic is wrong. We do have better control over what we do than the lower animals. An affair is simply planned out over a longer period but still the same lack of morals are at play.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

hardwired said:


> This is unequivocally not true.
> 
> Case in point. If not for the video evidence, she never would have known.
> 
> ...


I was wrong about the 'no chance' part. What a weird case. She must have been a heavy drinker (as per article) if she didn't notice. Or he must have drugged her. My wife wakes up if I move ever so slightly...There would be no chance she wouldn't be immediately woken up. 

I can't remember now what's this got to do with anything though.


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## hardwired (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I can't remember now what's this got to do with anything though.


Well that's convenient. ;-)


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

A ONS doesn't always mean something is wrong in the relationship. Maybe they just wanted some variety or validation that they are still desirable to the opposite sex.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Why are people so mean to him? Didn’t his wife cheat on him? Where’s the compassion and all that crap. TAM should be better than this. 🤟🏼


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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