# Take four? Five? Too many ruined chances to count from Mrs_Mathias



## Mrs_Mathias

Many of you have been reading my BH's thread, Three Strikes. You know my web of lies has completely fallen apart over the last 5 days. It has been overwhelmingly shaming and painful for both of us. I deleted my original thread without reading any of the additional comments since the last exposure. It was cowardly, and I truly believe people here are trying to help us. So I've come back after some sleep, to try to restart. Here's the gory details.
-----------------------

Affair Timeline

January/February 2012 – EA began
May 20 – PA begins w/kiss
May 29 – PA escalates with oral sex in office
May 31 – Left for NYC, online communications continue
3rd week of June – Sexting begins
1st /2nd week of July – Webcam shows
July 17th – return from NYC, visit OM’s house, oral sex, D-Day #1, NC message sent, lies about no oral sex and date of PA commencement
3rd or 4th week of August – OM breaks NC, shows up at office
Last week of August – Bad feeling regarding OM’s “okay”
1st or 2nd week of September – Saw OM on street walking, shortly after Skyping resumes, primarily messaging during the day with some short video chats
2nd or 3rd week of September – drive-throughs, book exchange begins
End of Sept./beginning of October – PA resumes, first penetrative sex at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues – false goodbye
2nd week of October – encounter in sound booth, Skyping/book exchange continues
3rd /4th weeks of October – 2 more sexual encounters at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues
November 2/3 – Spring Awakening, sex at Jillian’s, “romantic” goodbye/agreement to stay friends
November 10 – Skype messaging
November 11 or 12 – visit OM’s home before he moves to say geographic goodbye
November 12 or 13 – Skyping messaging to see if he’s moved/settled
November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R (no confession of past events), 
November 14? 16? - began removing ephemera of OM from office, deleting Skype from phone/ipad
November 17 – D-Day #2, continued lying until cornered regarding sex at Jillian’s, lied about additional sex, told about drive-throughs/book exchanges, omitted Skyping/office visit
November 18 – Final Skype message to OM, letting him know BH knows, OM is already aware, told him we are done messaging.
November 20 – BH asks me to leave house for few days
November 21 – D-Day #3, BH calls while I am staying with friends, asks about Skyping. Lie before I even think… backtrack and spill about skyping, additional sex – short convo, no real details given, conference call with parents 
November 22 – Return home, sit down with BH and confess affair from beginning to end, providing details and answering questions after completion, in-house separation begins

---------------------
We are proceeding toward divorce. BH loves me, but I am not good for him at this time. Massive changes in my communication, selfishness, fear, and focus need to happen before I can be a good parent, let alone a good wife (or even a not completely-awful-wife).

He is exceptionally generous to allow me to stay in the house with our son, and we are going to have a lot of work in front of us as we D. With my first post here on Sunday, I wanted ideas for how to show him I was changing. Honestly, I don't know what my hopes are now, with this post. I just need to be accountable to someone, and you all are remarkably skilled at calling me on my bullshyte.

My son needs a mother, not whatever it is I have become. My BH needs a supportive co-parent and collaborative D partner. My heart wants to hope that this is not the end for us, but there is not even the tiniest reason I can give him to even consider that possibility.

I have been a lying cake-eater. My relationship with OM is done, so I am ready to re-commit to BH. It's unforgivable, and he deserves far more than I have given him.

Someone posted in my deleted thread about redemption. I didn't see the post, but really need change to be possible. I love my son. And despite my actions, I actually do love my BH. It's certainly too little, too late there, but for my son's future, I need help.


----------



## Jonesey

Hi 
And welcome back. I say that because it takes some balls to come back. Not many would do it..

Some question"s

You wrote

My relationship with OM is done, so I am ready to re-commit to BH

How so? And why now? What changed? If i understud it correctley
You have pretty much been "gone" since 2009


----------



## Jonesey

Just one more thing. I dont know if you read one of my post to you
When i asked you to stop whit the drama queen act.

You are doing it again

"It's unforgivable, and he deserves far more than I have given him."

It wont get you anywhere


----------



## C-man

Yes, the drama queen act grows thin very rapidly. My wife tried that too - "You deserve somebody better.... you've always been a great Dad and a great husband".... The implication being, her affair and her cheating were really for your own good. 

Eventually, you hear this and you think to yourself "Yes.... Yes I have been. Now get the fck outta here".


----------



## aug

It was stated that your young lover of 21 years old wanted to get back with his girlfriend. It should had been obvious to him that he had no future with you. He was moving on with his life.

Did he dumped you?


----------



## Dollystanford

My concern about you is that you have already shown that despite being 'defined by your career' you are unprofessional and lack boundaries so....are you giving up your career? 

Because if you don't then how can he ever trust you? How will you be able to assure him that this won't happen again with the next young, fresh guy that sparks your intellect and floats your boat?


----------



## alte Dame

I'll write this last post just as my final addition to your discussion here.

I think this is all performance art. Sadly, I think your married life has been performance art. Children with parents like you have very rough childhoods & are often emotionally crippled for life. I hope that your H has the primary influence in your child's life.

Your celebration of your own drama has ruined several lives so far. Your 'affair' with someone who could biologically be your son is sad, but you couldn't see that - too wrapped up in your own self-congratulatory romantic vision.

You need help, Mrs. M. You need to step back from your poor H before you do any more damage.


----------



## MEM2020

Find someone very good at IC and get started. 

FYI: your response to the polygraph comment was a dead give away. You said you had no idea how you might go about getting one. 

Turns out that people who have fully disclosed what happened actually want to be believed and therefore want to take the polygraph. 

You want to help Matt, get a dna test for the baby and give it to him. 

You are in the house, make an effort to be helpful.


----------



## aug

Dollystanford said:


> My concern about you is that you have already shown that despite being 'defined by your career' you are unprofessional and lack boundaries so....are you giving up your career?
> 
> Because if you don't then how can he ever trust you? How will you be able to assure him that this won't happen again with the next young, fresh guy that sparks your intellect and floats your boat?


They are divorcing. She'll need her job/career.

I dont think it's the career that's causing her to cheat. Her problem is that she did not value her marriage at all.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I don't mean to be a drama queen. I don't know how else to express myself. Our life is totally shyte. I know the general consensus is that I must have had multiple affairs, that our son is not BH's... 

I will say the same thing I said in my previous thread before I deleted it... Change has to start SOMEWHERE. I was not always this person. BH and I were truly happy and loved each other. I don't think that has gone away, but I have completely degraded that.

Am I desperate? Yes. Am I panicked? Yes. Not because of the life change I am facing, but because I never meant to lose sight of my love for BH. 

IDK if every WS wants the opportunity to change... wishes for a time machine, whatever. But I do. Not for me, not for Matt at this point, although I certainly hope he will see the true me over the next few months and not the monster I have been the last 6 months. But for my son.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

How do you get a polygraph? We live in the rural midwest in a community of 4,000. I don't think it's wrong of me to not know.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

aug said:


> They are divorcing. She'll need her job/career.
> 
> I dont think it's the career that's causing her to cheat. Her problem is that she did not value her marriage at all.


You're absolutely right. I did not value my marriage. I am staying at my current job through the contract year. I will be moving wherever Matt and my son move to maintain frequent contact. Whatever job I end up with will have to do. I will NOT disappear from my son's life because I ruined the relationship with his father.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Well, you may remember many posts in your other thread calling you "selfish" and "narcissistic". 

However, I would urge you to accept those terms not as bashes/insults, but rather as diagnoses. 
I, and other posters, suspect you may have some deep-rooted personality disorders. Unless you deal with them, you will continue to have problems with all future relationships. 

I suggest you Google the term Narcissistic Personality Disorder and do a little research; see if this applies to you. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FryFish

lol @ the idea that you didnt hook up on your little book drop offs... 

You have admitted to what he has been able to show you that he KNOWS already...

Now how about you practice some REAL CHANGE and just be honest and forthcoming with the REST of what happened... Or keep being the same person you have always been and keep lying about everything...

Ya, being COMPLETELY honest is scary and hard and it WILL HURT Matt, but it will also put him in a position to start healing... The TINIEST new detail here or there LITERALLY resets him ALL THE WAY BACK TO ZERO! The cut is just as deep every single time he finds out something new... so, at this point and if you care about him, you can choose to give him just one more cut... Or if you still ONLY care about how it makes you look and feel, you can just keep burying your knife in him... Do you care about him? Dont you WANT him to be able to start healing? 

What will you choose to do this time?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

FryFish said:


> lol @ the idea that you didnt hook up on your little book drop offs...
> 
> You have admitted to what he has been able to show you that he KNOWS already...
> 
> Now how about you practice some REAL CHANGE and just be honest and forthcoming with the REST of what happened... Or keep being the same person you have always been and keep lying about everything...
> 
> Ya, being COMPLETELY honest is scary and hard and it WILL HURT Matt, but it will also put him in a position to start healing... The TINIEST new detail here or there LITERALLY resets him ALL THE WAY BACK TO ZERO! The cut is just as deep every single time he finds out something new... so, at this point and if you care about him, you can choose to give him just one more cut... Or if you still ONLY care about how it makes you look and feel, you can just keep burying your knife in him... Do you care about him? Dont you WANT him to be able to start healing?
> 
> What will you choose to do this time?


I want him to heal more than anything. I talked for hours last night, taking him through the affair timeline. I know details are important. We discussed positions, places, times, thoughts, feelings... I'm totally empty.


----------



## J Valley

I am not sure if you have answered. Was OM the only person you cheated with throughout your marriage?


----------



## FryFish

> I want him to heal more than anything. I talked for hours last night, taking him through the affair timeline. I know details are important. We discussed positions, places, times, thoughts, feelings... I'm totally empty.


But you still need to tell him about all of the stuff he couldn't possibly prove he already knows or was told about... You need to prove you can be completely honest. Tell him about the REST of the sex with the OM... Not just the stuff you know he already knows.

dropping off/picking up books one or two times a week, but never having sex, simply does NOT pass the bull**** test. They were booty drops.


----------



## Will_Kane

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *How do you get a polygraph*?
> 
> *We live in the rural midwest in a community* of 4,000. I don't think it's wrong of me to not know.


You don't know how to search for something on the Internet?

You can't drive to a larger city?


----------



## Summer4744

Mrs. Mathias. I know why you lied and the desperation you felt to keep your family together. 

But What I got from your posts was that you were very clinical about both your husband and your son and completely uncaring. You may have cried your self into a stupor, but who were you crying for? I think mainly you cried for the consequences you saw coming for yourself. And you explained this as tears for your husband because it sounds better that way.

What you felt for the OM was love. Being concerned for his future, dropping off books for him, thinking about him through the day. Giving him oral sex. 

What did you feel for your husband? Thank god he is a good father so you can play messiah to these community college drop outs? Thank god this guy will be there for me in between being used by other men? Thank god this guy pays rent and takes care of the house?

You may say that you love him and made mistakes, but be honest with yourself. You haven't loved your husband for quite sometime now. And the strong desire to patch things up and keep your man has more to do with what your husband can do for you than it has for love.

You may disagree as vehemently as you wish. But consider how effortlessly you reached out to the OM and were there for him, supported him, and nurtured him. Now think about how painful each DDay was to your husband, how willing you were to knowingly cause him pain, and how you only seemed to find your love for him when you needed something from him.

The best thing for the both of you is to let him go. Quit trying to explain how pure your love was, and how you were just confused. You would just be torturing him yet again for selfish reasons.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

J Valley said:


> I am not sure if you have answered. Was OM the only person you cheated with throughout your marriage?


Yes.


----------



## aug

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't mean to be a drama queen. I don't know how else to express myself. Our life is totally shyte. I know the general consensus is that I must have had multiple affairs, that our son is not BH's...
> 
> I will say the same thing I said in my previous thread before I deleted it... Change has to start SOMEWHERE. I was not always this person. BH and I were truly happy and loved each other. I don't think that has gone away, but I have completely degraded that.
> 
> Am I desperate? Yes. Am I panicked? Yes. Not because of the life change I am facing, but *because I never meant to lose sight of my love for BH.
> *
> IDK if every WS wants the opportunity to change... wishes for a time machine, whatever. But I do. Not for me, not for Matt at this point, although *I certainly hope he will see the true me over the next few months and not the monster I have been the last 6 months.* But for my son.


1. Not true - you did lose that love for BH. What you have now is leftovers. You started losing the love for your husband the first time you found that connection with the OM while he was your student a few years ago (mentioned in your deleted thread). Love does not die in one day but played out over time, in your case a couple of years.

2. He started seeing the true you earlier this year.


I think what you are asking for is a makeover.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

FryFish said:


> But you still need to tell him about all of the stuff he couldn't possibly prove he already knows or was told about... You need to prove you can be completely honest. Tell him about the REST of the sex with the OM... Not just the stuff you know he already knows.
> 
> dropping off/picking up books one or two times a week, but never having sex, simply does NOT pass the bull**** test. They were booty drops.


I have. There are a lot of things we discussed last night he couldn't possibly prove.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

aug said:


> 1. Not true - you did lose that love for BH. What you have now is leftovers. You started losing the love for your husband the first time you found that connection with the OM while he was your student a few years ago (mentioned in your deleted thread). Love does not die in one day but played out over time, in your case a couple of years.
> 
> 2. He started seeing the true you earlier this year.
> 
> 
> I think what you are asking for is a makeover.


Ok, then, yes, I am asking for a makeover. I have not always been the person I've been this year. I don't think that it's unrealistic of me to think I could change again.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Will_Kane said:


> You don't know how to search for something on the Internet?
> 
> You can't drive to a larger city?


I do and I can. I guess I was just trying to find out more details from someone who knew as opposed to blindly searching. I didn't know if you just call the local police station or what.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Your relationship with the OM is not done as you have not taken the steps necessary to permanently remove him from your life .

In your own hand write a no contact letter to him specifically stating you never want to have contact with him ever again , cc the letter to his parents and show the copy to your husband before you send it by Fedex or such like.
Hand write a letter of apology to your parents and your husbands.
Leave your job now , not when you think its convenient , the OM knows where you work so get out .


If your determined to evidence your a changed person and love your husband then show him by your actions not glib answers to us on the forum.

A D process takes a certain amount of time , don't waste it , you have until the very last day before a D is final to win your husband back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Mrs.Mathias; you have my respect for comming back here, it must have taken a lot of courage for you to do that.

Just wanted to show some compassion for you in your thread from the beginning, you are probably in shock these days when your world is falling to pieces around you, and it can be exhausting.

The same goes for your husband, and far worse, IMO, though I have never been in your situation. I have walked your husbands shoes quite some miles, and that isn't a walk in the park either.

I am not quite sure why you are back here with a new thread, but I hope that you deep down have some desire to change for the better. I hope you will soon do some serious IC, because I think you could use it. Also; show your husband mercy and make sure that the whole truth gets out in the open - it can't be any worse now, even if you think it can.

Humble yourself, get yourself together, if not for your husband, then for your son, your self and future relationships.

Come ooonnn....!


----------



## Shaggy

Lots of people offered you very good advice on how to try to save your marriage on the last thread.

You didn't listen to any of it. You just told lies.

I don't think you've fully told the truth even now. 

Your husband is doing the only right thing at this point. He is divorcing you. It's not that he's choosing to end the marriage. You are the one who ended the marriage back in May when you had sex with the boy. You're husband is just finishing the legal paper work on the marriage you already ended.

Your son is going to need therapy to deal with your choice to end the marriage to his father and to end his family being whole. He's going to need to right now, and later when he older and able to understand what you chose to do and to be with the OM, he is going to need therapy to not despise you and your choice to throw him and his father away for a boy student.

He's also going to need that therapy to help him not develop a deep distrust of women and their ability to be faithful and loyal to him. As he grows up he is going to learn about your betrayal of his father and he's going to question if any woman can be faithful. If his own mother isn't capable of being faithful - is any woman capable of it. And he's going to conclude that they aren't and it will forever affect how he sees women, and how he treats them.

See, your choice to have sex with the OM doesn't just affect you and your marriage. It will affect your son and any future marriage he may find himself in.

ADVICE: You need to make sure he gets the therapy he needs, and when the time comes treat him better than you've treated his father and tell him the truth when he asks, and not more the romanticized spew you rely upon normally.


As for your boy OM. What's your plan when you see him next week or he skypes you? What your plan in six months when he's back and the area and wants to hook up for a quickie?

What's your plan when the next student has heard about your reputation around school as a teacher who will put out in her office? 

What's your plan when you hear the snickers in the hallway when you past?

Consider as part of trying to make things up to your husband to switch back to your maiden name so that your husband's family name is no longer associated with your actions. It's very unfortunate that two of you work in the same place because his professional reputation is going to suffer greatly because of your actions. He too is going to be the subject of rumors , gossip, and disparaging comments from both staff and students.

My advice is to not fight him in the divorce. 

My advice is to TRULY no have any more contact with OM so you can finally get out of the fog of your affair.

My advice to your husband is to post the OM on cheaterville.com and to do everything he can to warn other men and woman about what a piece filth this guy is. The OM has already robbed one little boy of his family, others should be warned about him.

There won't be any more family breakfasts, or Christmas days with him mom and dad. No more family vacations or trips to the beach. No more family just dad and on occasion when she isn't too busy with her job or her BF -mom.


----------



## cpacan

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok, then, yes, I am asking for a makeover. I have not always been the person I've been this year. I don't think that it's unrealistic of me to think I could change again.


I also think that you can change, but it requires that you realize the truth about what you have become and that you truly see the need to change.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Summer4744 said:


> Mrs. Mathias. I know why you lied and the desperation you felt to keep your family together.
> 
> But What I got from your posts was that you were very clinical about both your husband and your son and completely uncaring. You may have cried your self into a stupor, but who were you crying for? I think mainly you cried for the consequences you saw coming for yourself. And you explained this as tears for your husband because it sounds better that way.
> 
> What you felt for the OM was love. Being concerned for his future, dropping off books for him, thinking about him through the day. Giving him oral sex.
> 
> What did you feel for your husband? Thank god he is a good father so you can play messiah to these community college drop outs? Thank god this guy will be there for me in between being used by other men? Thank god this guy pays rent and takes care of the house?
> 
> You may say that you love him and made mistakes, but be honest with yourself. You haven't loved your husband for quite sometime now. And the strong desire to patch things up and keep your man has more to do with what your husband can do for you than it has for love.
> 
> You may disagree as vehemently as you wish. But consider how effortlessly you reached out to the OM and were there for him, supported him, and nurtured him. Now think about how painful each DDay was to your husband, how willing you were to knowingly cause him pain, and how you only seemed to find your love for him when you needed something from him.
> 
> The best thing for the both of you is to let him go. Quit trying to explain how pure your love was, and how you were just confused. You would just be torturing him yet again for selfish reasons.


I never said my love was pure. it was battered and damaged, and miniscule. It was leftover. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do I cry for myself? Yes. AND for my son, AND for my BH. IF I were to be allowed the opportunity to change within this relationship (because clearly, I'm going to work on changing outside of it) it's obvious that our lives are never again about what Matt can do for me. So how can I possibly be trying to hold on to that? I don't think my writing style reflects my emotions/expression very well. I'm not clinical, but it is ingrained in me to write with good grammar/punctuation.

I did love OM. I have said that since D-Day #1 to BH. I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I think the only reason you created this thread is to get attention. Everything is about you.

I am sorry your family is shattered. I am sorry your husband is having to deal with all this. I am very sorry for your son. 

I feel bad for you. But what you need is counseling. Find a counselor that specializes in personality disorders. Talk to someone to try to find out why you do these things.

I truly wish you the best, but stay away from TAM. Quit looking for attention. Get into IC.


----------



## Jonesey

Now you might think i´m being rude here but i´m not.I have no gog in this fight.

The reson i think you two wont make it.Is quite simpel, you just dont seem to understand
or grasp the whole situation. You some how think this is all about the last 6 months

You are wrong there

I´m going to copy and paste a few thing´s your husband wrote

And perhaps then you will understand a little better.

You have basically one way or another ”Been gone from the marriage” for a long time.Longer then 6 months. It´s more of a few years then,stated six months.

And take a look how little you cared

Your husband wrote


*One night when I set up a romantic evening in the spare bedroom, she and her attractive young male protege both came in, and he took the liberty of going in and taking a nap- moving some stuff and spoiling the evening*

And you respond towards OM how?


*You leave for work a 9:00 AM and does not return until 11 PM is obviously making the work life the center of her life.

And then

We have had students live in our house before, and for some reason he became totally at home.
And you allowed it because?*
*she and I were heading to NYC where she works in the summer, usually for 7-8 weeks.*

And you spended how much quality time with your husband?

Not much i from the sound of it.

And this

*I was pretty bitter from constantly childrearing, doing all the housework, and being the slave to an energetic woman at work who came home a zombie.
*

*I was cheated on in a first marriage 17 years ago when I was 20. 

My WW showed me this site in the first place*


I could go on and on.But i think you get the point by now.

Its far more serious then you think..

I hope you understand it


----------



## cpacan

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I never said my love was pure. it was battered and damaged, and miniscule. It was leftover. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do I cry for myself? Yes. AND for my son, AND for my BH. IF I were to be allowed the opportunity to change within this relationship (because clearly, I'm going to work on changing outside of it) it's obvious that our lives are never again about what Matt can do for me. So how can I possibly be trying to hold on to that? I don't think my writing style reflects my emotions/expression very well. I'm not clinical, but it is ingrained in me to write with good grammar/punctuation.
> 
> I did love OM. I have said that since D-Day #1 to BH. I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.


My wife pulled the polyamory-idea as a lifesaver as well. It lasted exactly untill the moment I used the free pass provided by her to have my own extramarital experience. You know what? She suddenly realized that polyamory doesn't work for her if it is both ways...


----------



## Shaggy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok, then, yes, I am asking for a makeover. I have not always been the person I've been this year. I don't think that it's unrealistic of me to think I could change again.


You can change. 

The thing is your husband no longer will be there when you finally do stop being a liar and a cheater. He wanted to. He tried. But eventually he has accepted your final answer on the subject: You didn't want him. You loved the OM and not him. 


I wonder if the OM thought to himself who bleak his future looked with you. You're old in his eyes. Oh, he'll have sex with you sure. A 21 yr old would have sex with pretty much anything up to and including grannies. But he must see that any woman who would turn their back on their husband and child like you did, you in a heartbeat cheat on him too down the road.

He must have seen that your husband treated you fantastic and was trying to get you to stop cheating on him.

He must have also realized that all the things you were saying to him, you must have once said to your husband.

And then he would realize that even if he was with you, you'd eventually just to do him what you've done with him.


----------



## aug

Did you get dumped by your lover?


----------



## warlock07

Why did you delete you old thread ?

Unfortunately, you cannot delete your own reality.. Live with yourself.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did love OM. I have said that since D-Day #1 to BH. I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.


This statement and rationalisation is laughable and the same kind of rubbish that is spouted by many a wayward. I assure you, you never loved the OM , you may have likened the feelings to love but real love ? Not a chance 

It also explains why you have not and likely will not use the approach we have given your to ensure the OM is never to be part of your life again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

No point posting in your thread...You will delete it again. Whatever makes you look good, isn't it ? People should read your over the top response to Shaggy for calling on your bullsh!t. It would have been a good reference point for future BS on how good an actor their WS can be. There was even a thread about it some time back.

It's funny. Even we can't trust you.. And we've known you for what ? 2 days ?


----------



## Summer4744

Mrs.

Your love for your husband may not be pure. It may be damaged and diminished, but what you felt for the OM was pure love. Remember what this felt like? At some point you MAY have felt this for your husband, but you are so far removed from this point why keep your husband back if not for selfish reasons.

The point being that right now there is a flood of emotions and a real fear of the future where there will be no one there to love you unconditionally. That is what you are feeling for your husband. It is not true love. You may be able to fake it to yourself because you are afraid, but do you really think your husband cannot tell the difference?

Don't you think your husband deserves someone who loves him with pure love? Someone who sends him Facebook messages every hour? Someone who can't stop thinking about him? Someone that satisfies his fantasies because she loves him so?

I think trying to manufacture a loving relationship with your husband means yet again you want something from your husband at his expense.


----------



## Will_Kane

If you want my opinion, all of this stuff about when it started with other man, how many times you had sex, how you did it, did you use protection, etc., is not all that important. You and other man had a lot of sex, a bunch of different times.

What is more important, is why you kept going back to other man, how you just went back to him in November, four months after you were initially caught, how you can't seem to get over him, how you still to this day are not over him. *What has happened now that was so different than what happened before, that now you are over him but before you were not?* 

In my view, there is no evidence that you don't still love other man, no evidence that your husband is not still second choice, there is only evidence that other man is not a viable option at this time. As far as anyone knows, you still are thinking about him, still thinking about trying to get in touch with him after things quiet down a little. You will use, as your husband called them, your "legions," to perpetuate the contact between you and your star-crossed lover. Yes, he is young and has no decent job, but you are thinking that will change, you will help him find his way and then you will be able to be together in the end. It is not implausible to you that you and other man could live a happy life together, no matter how impossible it looks to everyone else.

No matter what was said during your talk with your husband, your husband has no way of really knowing if you still are carrying a torch for the other man. You did so for four months of false reconciliation, what has changed now in your husband's eyes? He can't see the thoughts inside of your head.

If you want to convince your husband that you are truly back with him, that you truly are over other man, start taking some concrete actions that he can actually see.

Handwrite the no contact letter to the other man. It should contain a line that if he ever attempts to contact you again in any way, shape, or form, you will file harassment charges against him. Then give it to your husband for his review and mailing.

Resign from your job immediately; at the very least, begin looking for a new job and let your husband see that you are doing it.

Handwrite no contact letters to all of your toxic "legions" who helped and encouraged your affair. No contact letters contain no terms of endearment, no "sorry how it turned out," just something to the effect of "don't ever contact me again or if you do I will file harassment charges against you." Then give them to your husband for his review and mailing.

Destroy any clothing you wore when you had sex with other man. Same with any gifts other man gave you or any other items of significance. Tell your husband you are doing this and let him see you do it.

Start telling your husband exactly where you are going 24/7. Send multiple messages to him each day to let him know you are where you say. Answer calls from him immediately. Of course give him complete access to your email and phone. Never delete any messages until after your husband has seen them. Delete your account on Facebook.

Your husband is not asking you to take any actions now because he doesn't care, he is certain he wants a divorce. The thing is, divorce can be a long process. Feelings change over time. If your husband sees you making a strong effort, making him the center of your life AND denouncing the other man as scum, his feelings toward you may begin to change and he may begin to reconsider reconciliation.

For many betrayed spouses, reconciliation fails or is not an option because the betrayed either knows, believes, or has doubts that cheater still is "in love" with the affair partner and is committing to the marriage because the affair partner is not a viable option. Your husband probably has those doubts now. He may be correct in his assessment. You can try to show him with visible actions that you have changed.


----------



## anchorwatch

I do not believe you were in love with the boy. I believe you were in a state of limerence and selfish.

You have no plan. You have not as of yet searched out anyone qualified to guide you. That's why you're floundering. Start taking actions. 

What can you do? Start to prove yourself.

For yourself.

* Get into IC to find out why you have destroyed your life hurt your family. 

For your husband.

* Write the no contact letter an copy everyone as Eli-Zor's post describes. 

* Change your phone numbers, sykpe and email addresses. Block the OM's numbers. Every time the boy contacts you, tell your husband as soon as it happens. If he tries to contact you get a legal RO against him.

* Take the poly, google it, find an accredited one near your zip. 

Then do not expect anything from your husband in return for any actions you take toward redemption. 

This is a least a start.

_example of NC letter,

OM,
I want you to know that out of respect and love for my H and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that H did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay H for the pain I have caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a gread deal for miy family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship. 

Sincerely, X_


----------



## aug

She has done a no-contact letter earlier. What's good about a second no-contact letter? It means nothing.

I think she doesnt need a NC letter if she got dumped by her young lover.


----------



## C-man

The reality a lot of women need to realize is that it is fairly easy to get a younger guy to have sex with you, provided you've kept yourself in good shape and act and dress younger than your age. And if you're married and willing to cheat - you become a trophy if the guy is sleazy enough. If you're vain enough, the attention will make you feel good and will over-ride whatever conscience you have. But the reality is, in most cases you are just an easy lay - maybe even a sugar mommy.

But the older cheaters should not mistake the fact that the young guys are willing to stick their penis in your vagina, or your mouth, or any other orifice for ever-lasting "true" love. 

Again, bringing my own wife's experience into the mix - she was the POS OM's 2nd or third booty call. He didn't even spring for a decent hotel - using his Grandfather's basement as their "love nest". Yet my wife actually had feelings for the guy - even defended him when I contacted him recently - going so far as to say that she made up the PA.

You've basically thrown your marriage away for a horny boy who used you. And you did it repeatedly, without thought for your husband or your own child. It was the ultimate selfish act. And the irony is, you thought you were fooling your husband when you were really just fooling yourself. 

Maybe you finally realize that, but it is too late.


----------



## anchorwatch

aug said:


> She has done a no-contact letter earlier. What's good about a second no-contact letter? It means nothing.
> 
> I think she doesnt need a NC letter if she got dumped by her young lover.


Then let her husband see her enforce it legally.


----------



## bfree

My opinion is that if there is a shred of decency left in you you will make the divorce as easy as possible on your husband and your son. You will work as hard on this as you did to have and conceal your affair. And while I know that you want to stay in your child's life you are a terrible influence on him right now. You need to go to counseling to fix your issues before you can be a good mother. Let you husband take charge of the parenting until you can truly become a good mother and a good coparent.


----------



## MEM2020

MM,
Google: polygraph services zip code or town name

I am not saying you are being untruthful at this point. I am saying that there is reason for Matt to now doubt the completeness of your story. 

Same reason for the DNA - do these two things to put his mind at rest that the rest of your marriage was real and positive as he thought. 





Mrs_Mathias said:


> How do you get a polygraph? We live in the rural midwest in a community of 4,000. I don't think it's wrong of me to not know.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Another attempt to manipulate her husband. But wrongly choose this site.
She might have gone to Doccool seeking help. She belongs to there.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs Mathias, two suggestions.

First, commit to total honesty and transparency. No lies, no spin. With everyone. Having watched you work in your previous thread my head is spinning. I understand why you would lie to your husband to conceal an affair, and I understand why you would lie online if you were dragged here against your will and had to stay consistent with what you told your husband. But as I understand it you introduced him here, therefore setting up the scenario that put you in this position. I can only assume you intended to use us to bullsh1t him. That is a very calculated and proactive piece of deception.

Why did you do it?

Second suggestion. Having walked in your husband's shoes, I am incredibly sad for him right now. I also feel sorry for you, but you made this mess, he didn't. Seeing you is going to be torture for him for a while. Consider moving out of home for a little while to let him heal. This would demonstrate compassion for him, at a time when you have severely damaged his life.


----------



## keko

warlock07 said:


> Why did you delete you old thread ?
> 
> Unfortunately, you cannot delete your own reality.. Live with yourself.


:lol:


----------



## C-man

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Another attempt to manipulate her husband. But wrongly choose this site.
> She might have gone to Doccool seeking help. She belongs to there.


Wow - just went to that site. Sponsored by ****** *******! The interviews are hilarious - kind of like Penthouse letters - no guilt, no shame - with links to hooking up in your area - no strings attached.

I might just break LC to send the link to my STBXW!!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Any woman worth reconciling with would want desperately to leave the job and toxic relationships and people who enabled the affair. Simple as that. Actions. Not words. Your actions in staying through the year show your true feelings. Your actions don't match your words of remorse.


----------



## WyshIknew

I think Mrs M said that she was under contract till early/mid next year.
I don't know if there would be any consequences for breaking that contract, possibly under the circumstances the college may be willing to waive some or all of the penalties.
Problem is I don't think Dr M needs a penniless wife in a divorce settlement right now.


----------



## the guy

For what it s worth I saw alot less "I" in this thread then the last one. Something tells me, you will make a dam good mom and in 10 years when the kid is twelve you will have raise a fine boy....the both of you will haved raised a fine boy.

In your next relationship, never ever make it a priority, your # one is your baby...even in 20 years he will still be your baby.

I bet 20 years seems like a long time, trust me it is not and in no time at all your boy will be getting out off college and he will want both his mon and dad there.

Work on your self and you will have indirectly work on and for your son!


----------



## Lon

Mrs. Matt, I didn't read through your updated timeline, because even if you did update it to include more of the important milestones that define the end of a marriage, you very possibly have missed at least one which your H would consider relevant and which you ignore or can't see as important to him.

Honestly, from the words he posted, he is done with the marriage - there can never be the necessary trust. You are doing an in-house separation, I would highly recommend you seek somewhere else to live starting today - the sooner you are apart from him the sooner he can begin to heal. One thing I am thankful for about my ex after she tore out my heart with her affair and plea to get out of the marriage is that she left swiftly as soon as I told/asked her.

That would be my last piece of advice to you, do the least ungracious thing and move away so he doesn't have to continuously be triggered by your constant presence.

Give him time and space. And use that time and space for reclusion, or don't - do whatever you think you have to, but if there is any chance he would reconcile and that is what you truly want don't squander it, again, don't bring drama into your H's life. Use your time for individual counselling and shedding whatever fears about this life you are trying to cope with.


----------



## cpacan

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Another attempt to manipulate her husband. But wrongly choose this site.
> She might have gone to Doccool seeking help. She belongs to there.


Not useful too anyone


----------



## warlock07

Cedarman said:


> The reality a lot of women need to realize is that it is fairly easy to get a younger guy to have sex with you, provided you've kept yourself in good shape and act and dress younger than your age. And if you're married and willing to cheat - you become a trophy if the guy is sleazy enough. If you're vain enough, the attention will make you feel good and will over-ride whatever conscience you have. But the reality is, in most cases you are just an easy lay - maybe even a sugar mommy.
> 
> But the older cheaters should not mistake the fact that the young guys are willing to stick their penis in your vagina, or your mouth, or any other orifice for ever-lasting "true" love.
> 
> Again, bringing my own wife's experience into the mix - she was the POS OM's 2nd or third booty call. He didn't even spring for a decent hotel - using his Grandfather's basement as their "love nest". Yet my wife actually had feelings for the guy - even defended him when I contacted him recently - going so far as to say that she made up the PA.
> 
> You've basically thrown your marriage away for a horny boy who used you. And you did it repeatedly, without thought for your husband or your own child. It was the ultimate selfish act. And the irony is, you thought you were fooling your husband when you were really just fooling yourself.
> 
> Maybe you finally realize that, but it is too late.


they used one another...or she used him..the guy is 21..imagine a guy doing it with a 21 year old student


----------



## warlock07

Wazza said:


> Mrs Mathias, two suggestions.
> 
> First, commit to total honesty and transparency. No lies, no spin. With everyone. Having watched you work in your previous thread my head is spinning. I understand why you would lie to your husband to conceal an affair, and I understand why you would lie online if you were dragged here against your will and had to stay consistent with what you told your husband. But as I understand it you introduced him here, therefore setting up the scenario that put you in this position. I can only assume you intended to use us to bullsh1t him. That is a very calculated and proactive piece of deception.
> 
> Why did you do it?
> 
> Second suggestion. Having walked in your husband's shoes, I am incredibly sad for him right now. I also feel sorry for you, but you made this mess, he didn't. Seeing you is going to be torture for him for a while. Consider moving out of home for a little while to let him heal. This would demonstrate compassion for him, at a time when you have severely damaged his life.


If Wazza is angry at you, you f*cked up real bad...

He was defending you in your older thread


----------



## Acabado

Poeple can, do change. It takes humility, capacity of self examination, ability to see the big picture, courage, patience, perseverance. It takes commitment, determination, practicing healthy choices. Find out the right path and then put a foot vefore of the other, everyday. Choose dayly, hourly if needed. Don't get discouraged, don't wallow in self pity. Shame is useless, paralizing, promotes no change. I might me unavoidable but you must choose to shake it, go through it. Guilt is also unaviodable, the difference is it promotes change. The kind of change is what makes the difference, people often run to avoid overwelming guilty feelings, or defend themselves using all the wrong defense mechanisms in the arsenal. The only door to personal recovery is remorse. What remorse looks like is sometimes elusive... make your own search.

I'm hesitant to provide sources, books, recomendations to help you with this becuase you are very good at it, you actualy set up MC, got into IC, read books, even posted here only it was a complete smoke screen, a performance.

Obviously you need to get OM completely out of your head. You are not there still. Not even close. There are recomendations, here and everywhere to help you with withdrawal. This thread (started by a BH but her WW was reading it had some tips). Will_Kane made good suggestions. I'll send you a PM about it too.


I can't stress you enough to be genuine, emotional transparent and authentic from now on, regardless the outcome, regardless whatever action your husband take. No more pretending, please. Just stop it. It's not love, it's manipulation. Stop using copouts as the "fog", MLC, etc. Just examine clasely your actions, your patterns. Stop telling what your husband "want" to hear, stop protecting your self image. The "right" steps didn't changes since the fisrt time you came to TAM, you can read them here again, in books, everywhere in internet. Will_Kane keep repeating them. Alwys consult, share with your husband. 

Still they are mere tips. Against the usual advice I urge you to focus primarily in personaly recovery, personal growth, whatever it means. You migh need professional help to assist you in this self discovery journey, to guide you to dismantle the twisted thought process you used to be here and to point out the right direction in the search of the truth. 
At then end of the day, if your marriage have a chance to survive your personal recovery is an ineludible requirement. It's very possible your won't survive. Stil you will need to be a different woman for a new beggining, whether it's with Mr Mathias or a different person.
There's no shortcuts. It's dayly work. Whever broguth you to this is very ingrained nad change doesn't happen overnight so don't get frustrated.

Keep reading here, specially post from former waywards. I don't know whether it's possible to recover your old thread because beyond the advice towards the more immediate steps there were many suggestions about issues you should think about and likely to adress.

I know the world is crashing down around you. Don't mistake the harsh words you read here with no empathy. Pain doesn't hurt less because is self inflicted. So try to be kind to you.

Wish you luck.


----------



## BjornFree

Acabado said:


> Poeple can, do change. It takes humility, capacity of self examination, ability to see the big picture, courage, patience, perseverance. It takes commitment, determination, practicing healthy choices. Find out the right path and then put a foot vefore of the other, everyday. Choose dayly, hourly if needed. Don't get discouraged, don't wallow in self pity. Shame is useless, paralizing, promotes no change. I might me unavoidable but you must choose to shake it, go through it. Guilt is also unaviodable, the difference is it promotes change. The kind of change is what makes the difference, people often run to avoid overwelming guilty feelings, or defend themselves using all the wrong defense mechanisms in the arsenal. The only door to personal recovery is remorse. What remorse looks like is sometimes elusive... make your own search.
> 
> I'm hesitant to provide sources, books, recomendations to help you with this becuase you are very good at it, you actualy set up MC, got into IC, read books, even posted here only it was a complete smoke screen, a performance.
> 
> Obviously you need to get OM completely out of your head. You are not there still. Not even close. There are recomendations, here and everywhere to help you with withdrawal. This thread (started by a BH but her WW was reading it had some tips). Will_Kane made good suggestions. I'll send you a PM about it too.
> 
> 
> I can't stress you enough to be genuine, emotional transparent and authentic from now on, regardless the outcome, regardless whatever action your husband take. No more pretending, please. Just stop it. It's not love, it's manipulation. Stop using copouts as the "fog", MLC, etc. Just examine clasely your actions, your patterns. Stop telling what your husband "want" to hear, stop protecting your self image. The "right" steps didn't changes since the fisrt time you came to TAM, you can read them here again, in books, everywhere in internet. Will_Kane keep repeating them. Alwys consult, share with your husband.
> 
> Still they are mere tips. Against the usual advice I urge you to focus primarily in personaly recovery, personal growth, whatever it means. You migh need professional help to assist you in this self discovery journey, to guide you to dismantle the twisted thought process you used to be here and to point out the right direction in the search of the truth.
> At then end of the day, if your marriage have a chance to survive your personal recovery is an ineludible requirement. It's very possible your won't survive. Stil you will need to be a different woman for a new beggining, whether it's with Mr Mathias or a different person.
> There's no shortcuts. It's dayly work. Whever broguth you to this is very ingrained nad change doesn't happen overnight so don't get frustrated.
> 
> Keep reading here, specially post from former waywards. I don't know whether it's possible to recover your old thread because beyond the advice towards the more immediate steps there were many suggestions about issues you should think about and likely to adress.
> 
> I know the world is crashing down around you. Don't mistake the harsh words you read here with no empathy. Pain doesn't hurt less because is self inflicted. So try to be kind to you.
> 
> Wish you luck.


What an excellent post if i do say so myself.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Oh man, this is your previous thread all over again. 

“Yeah, I got caught lying before but now I had my epiphany and I am telling the truth, I swear!” 

You dropping off books for him still doesn’t make any sense. Was he under house arrest and couldn’t get them himself? Or am I missing something?

You want to help your husbands? Don’t play any dirty tricks during the divorce. Yes, divorce is the only rational option. If he is staying with you he is playing Russian roulette with a mostly full cylinder. And please stop with the “this was not the real me” stuff. You are what you do, not what you say you'll do.

Also don’t pull any emotional manipulation on him. You can try to get professional help after the divorce, if you are really interested in changing but this will most likely take longer than a few months.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> If Wazza is angry at you, you f*cked up real bad...
> 
> He was defending you in your older thread


Well, yes she did f*ck up, but I'm sad, not angry. And I'm willing to help if I can.

My paragraph about truthfulness was just basic. I get that waywards slide gently into dishonesty and don't know how to get out, but it still does enormous damage. Don't know if the damage ever totally heals.

MrsM went beyond that. I could reconcile with my wife, and mostly get over the lies of her affair, because I am very certain that deception was out of character for her. I had multipe D Days too. mutiple assurances that were broken. all that can be overcome. If I were DrM, the calculated nature of his wife's deception would make it much harder to overome. I'd be wondering whether she actually enjoyed successfully lying.

The bit about moving out for a bit...after my wife's affair I found it very hard to even look at her. I threw myself into work and activities outside the home to avoid her for a while. I am assuming DrM needs the same space, but is not in a position to just go out because he is the primary parent. I guess if he needs that she could babysit while he goes out. 

If she intends to spend her evenings producing shows with her young students, not coming home, then she can't babysit. But if she still does that after all that has happened she would be very unwise in my view. Because DrM will always wonder what she is really doing.

I assume she harbours hope of reconciliation, and based on the small windw we have here, DrM may be a big enough man to attempt it. But if she thinks all she has to do s grovell for a bit until things settle down and then she can go on as before, well in my view that would be not just unwise but downright cruel. She cannot change who she is, but she can manage it better. Boundaries. Starting with truthfulness. Ponder the shades of meaning in the word "integrity".


----------



## Kasler

Stop lying to yourself here. 

You're not ready to commit to anything. 

Hell the only reason you tried to go back to your husband is because your lover moved away, and even after that you msged him. 

You are not a changed person, and you will not be anytime soon. 

The best thing you can do is move out so your husband doesn't have to suffer your dramatics during the divorce process

I would post more, but rather not since it'll probably be deleted as soon as you start looking like the incredibly selfish woman you are, which should be in about a couple or days or so.


----------



## aug

Wazza said:


> MrsM went beyond that. I could reconcile with my wife, and mostly get over the lies of her affair, because I am very certain that deception was out of character for her. I had multipe D Days too. mutiple assurances that were broken. all that can be overcome. If I were DrM, the *calculated nature of his wife's deception would make it much harder to overome.* I'd be wondering whether she actually enjoyed successfully lying.



They are all calculating. Some are just better at it.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok, then, yes, I am asking for a makeover. I have not always been the person I've been this year. I don't think that it's unrealistic of me to think I could change again.


Dear Mrs_Mathias,

I think you understand why you are receiving such skeptical and angry responses on your new thread. You lied to everyone on TAM in your last thread and demonstrated that you are not only an unfaithful and dishonest person but can be a very manipulative one as well. Many responders on TAM are victims of such behavior and therefore react more strongly than the "average" person, but no one likes to be deceived and most perceive the wisdom in the old saying, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

You say that, now, you really want to change. Maybe this is true and maybe it's not. It is easy to see why it might not be. Perhaps this is just another, more sophisticated, attempt to fool DrMathias into taking you back so that you can continue your destructive (and self-destructive) life-style. Or maybe, as someone said, you are back because you enjoy the "drama" of deceiving people.

But I for one am willing to entertain the _possibility_ that, this time, you are being sincere (or, at least as sincere as you can be right now). If so, your question should be, how can I change and how can I demonstrate to DrMathias that I have changed? I have three suggestions:

First, agree to (and if necessary, insist on) a divorce. You said in your earlier thread that you were prepared to give DrMathias a favorable divorce settlement. Well, if you are really penitent, wish the best for your family and want to demonstrate that you want to change, show that you are prepared to suffer real consequences for all the wrong you have done. Agree to a division of marital property in which DrMathias receives 100% of that accumulated over the years when you were absorbed in your career to the detriment of your family. Give DrMathias primary custody of your son and agree that he is free to move wherever he wants. Offer to pay child support. Don't just say you will do this, insist that it happen. DrMathias needs to separate from you in order to regain his self-esteem and restore his emotional well-being. Your accepting the fact that he will not be able to do this as long as you are his wife would be a strong signal that you are, finally, putting him and your son first in your life.

Second, start a new career. What was absolutely clear from your previous thread is that you have focused most of your energy on teaching and theatre for much of your adult life (more recently, to the exclusion of DrMathias and your son). Undoubtedly, this is a major reason you find yourself in your current predicament. The environment of the theatre world exposed you to influences that warped your values and opened up a Pandora's box of opportunities to engage in self-destructive behavior. This undoubtedly contributed to your abandoning your responsibilities as a wife and mother. If you really want to change, you need to remove yourself from this toxic environment. Your willingness to do so would also send another strong signal to DrMathias that your desire to change is genuine. When your current contract expires, get a job that doesn't involve theatre or teaching and that affords you time to spend with family and loved ones. Your are obviously a very intelligent and talented person. I have little doubt that you could succeed in many professions. Find one that will permit you to have a more normal and healthy personal life.

Third, understand that the desire to change is not enough. As another old saying goes, "wishing does not make it so." If we really want to become a changed person, we have to force ourselves to do the things that the person we wish to become would do. If we wish to be truthful, we have to start telling the truth. If we wish to be loving, we have to start doing loving things. If we wish to be charitable, we have to start giving. The key to becoming a "changed" person is to change the way one acts. Over time, the behavioral changes become more natural to us and, lo and behold, we are changed! Think hard about the kind of person you would like to be. Then, identify all the aspects of your current behavior that have prevented you from being that person, and start to change those behaviors. Seek the counsel of people you can help you: mental health professionals, religious/spiritual leaders, family and friends who are good role models. Start to associate with people who demonstrate the qualities you want to develop in yourself and avoid people who will hinder your efforts. This will be a long (most likely, life-long) process and will not be easy (most people don't even try) but is probably the most important thing you can do for yourself and the ones you love.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if you are being sincere now or not. Nevertheless, you are a human being and therefore deserving of respect despite your failings and forgiveness if you are truly sorry for them. I hope you find a way through your present difficult circumstances to a better place, not just for the sake of DrMathias and your son, but for yours as well.


----------



## aug

What's theater if not deception? Dont be surprised at her ability to deceive. It's her profession, she seems to be good at it.

I dont know if she's truly remorseful yet. We dont know for sure what happened with her lover less than 2 weeks ago. Did she get dumped?


----------



## Acabado

carmen ohio said:


> Third, understand that the desire to change is not enough. As another old saying goes, "wishing does not make it so." If we really want to become a changed person, we have to force ourselves to do the things that the person we wish to become would do. If we wish to be truthful, we have to start telling the truth. If we wish to be loving, we have to start doing loving things. If we wish to be charitable, we have to start giving. The key to becoming a "changed" person is to change the way one acts. Over time, the behavioral changes become more natural to us and, lo and behold, we are changed! Think hard about the kind of person you would like to be. Then, identify all the aspects of your current behavior that have prevented you from being that person, and start to change those behaviors. Seek the counsel of people you can help you: mental health professionals, religious/spiritual leaders, family and friends who are good role models. Start to associate with people who demonstrate the qualities you want to develop in yourself and avoid people who will hinder your efforts. This will be a long (most likely, life-long) process and will not be easy (most people don't even try) but is probably the most important thing you can do for yourself and the ones you love.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if you are being sincere now or not. Nevertheless, you are a human being and therefore deserving of respect despite your failings and forgiveness if you are truly sorry for them. I hope you find a way through your present difficult circumstances to a better place, not just for the sake of DrMathias and your son, but for yours as well.


This, x1000


----------



## SadSamIAm

Numbersixxx said:


> Oh man, this is your previous thread all over again.
> 
> “Yeah, I got caught lying before but now I had my epiphany and I am telling the truth, I swear!”
> 
> You dropping off books for him still doesn’t make any sense. Was he under house arrest and couldn’t get them himself? Or am I missing something?
> 
> You want to help your husbands? Don’t play any dirty tricks during the divorce. Yes, divorce is the only rational option. If he is staying with you he is playing Russian roulette with a mostly full cylinder. And please stop with the “this was not the real me” stuff. You are what you do, not what you say you'll do.
> 
> Also don’t pull any emotional manipulation on him. You can try to get professional help after the divorce, if you are really interested in changing but this will most likely take longer than a few months.


My guess is she went to the OM's to have sex. Her excuse was going there was to bring him books. Since he wasn't there, she just dropped off the books.

So technically, she may not be lying. I am sure her intent was to have sex, but it may not have happened.

In the skype conversation Matt posted in his thread she pretty much promised the guy he could do anything he wanted to her whenever he wanted. As long as he understood that she truly loved her husband and was OK with her doing the same things with her husband. That skype is one of the sickest things I have ever read. What a selfish beotch.


----------



## Shaggy

It's become more and more obvious that the affair isn't really over. The OM is moving away and dumped her. The OM's GF also got wind of it and the OM threw the cheating wife under the bus to save his own bacon.

This explains the emotion she has had the last couple of weeks since their last sex hookup. 

I'm guessing OM informed her he was moving and dumped her.

so she's been all broken up about being dumped.

So she thought she'd come back to Dr.Plan B and he'd take care of her and nurse her broken heart.

Trouble is Chelsea spilled the beans to him and now he's realizing that he's been being played for months, and even now is being played.

There is no remorse from the STBX Mrs. because in her heart she's not upset about loosing Matt. She's upset about her OM not choosing her after all she's given him.

If Dr.M hadn't found out, and had been a good patsy to her plan, he would be bending over backwards right now to make her feel happy - while she would be planning on how she can go visit often the place where OM is moving to. Perhaps she'd meet up with him behind the burger king when he was on break?

But now the boy is looking over his shoulder because the good Dr. may be on his way to "talk" with him.

And the STBX Mrs.M no longer has her nice lies to hide behind, so if she did go to the burger king, everyone would know what she's up to.

This is the real reason why she's so upset. She can continue her affair like she wants to.


----------



## TDSC60

Don't look for your husband to be friendly with you. You are the source of his pain and anguish. You are the person who betrayed him for a fantasy with a 21 year old boy. Your very presence amplifies his pain.

Just for the record. You can love two people at the same time, but you can not be in love with two people at the same time. You were not and are not in love with your husband. You left that behind a year ago. You claim you love your husband yet you lied to him, manipulated him, betrayed him and kept him in the dark while baring your soul and body to your lover. That is not the act of a person who loves another.

For you IC is a must. You are still in the dark. You are acting like a child who got caught doing something naughty. Saying "Yeah I did that - BUT". Admit that you have not been in love with your husband for a long time now. He was just - comfortable.

Focus on improving yourself.

Focus on your child.

Leave your husband alone unless he asks something of you.


----------



## warlock07

> Massive changes in my communication, selfishness, fear, and focus need to happen before I can be a good parent, let alone a good wife (or even a not completely-awful-wife).


Start being a little less disgusting human for a start..


----------



## PostRedPill

Mrs. -

Stop with all the words. You will never talk away the damage you have done. Actions are the only thing that matter at this point.

You say you want to change. Change starts with acceptance of the truth. In your case, the truth is not at all pretty. You can say "that's not who I am" but your actions show that otherwise.

1. You are a liar. You believe that in order to get what you want (save your marriage, spend time with OM, save your career) that you can lie. You didn't lie once, feel bad about it and come clean. You lied over and over again, even to complete strangers, in an effort to get what you want. 

2. You are incredibly selfish. For years you placed your career, your wants, and your needs in front of your husbands and your own child. Affairs are pure selfishness. Your wants and needs trumped everything else. 

You didn't give a **** about what this would do to your husband. Did your ever once think about what it would do to him, especially knowing he was cheated on in the past? What it would do to his career? His standing in the community? 
You didn't give a **** about what it would do to your child. A previous poster was right. This is going to really screw with your child's future. Go buy and read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce." Children of divorce struggle incredibly in future relationships. But no, you only gave a **** about you.

If you are serious about change, in addition to the no contact letter, apology letters, changing phone and e-mail and such... you need to 100% own the consequences and outcomes of your actions. Think about this list:

1. Submit your resignation from your job. Go talk to whomever is in charge and ask to be released from the remainder of your contract. It is toxic.

2. Move out of the house. I really don't care if you have to go sleep in on a mattress on the floor of someone's garage. IMHO, the day you began the emotional side of the affair with the OM, you lost the right to even set foot in the marital home.

3. Sign divorce papers giving your husband 100% of the marital assets, agree to pay him alimony and child support. He gets primary custody of the child and gets to determine the schedule of visitation. You don't get to keep cash or assets to let you live a comfortable life because you decided to cheat. I don't care what the law says about 'no fault.' You were at fault and he shouldn't suffer more because you were a lying selfish idiot.

4. Get into therapy and go as often as possible.

5. Destroy, sell or give away everything, and I mean everything that was tied to the OM. Clothing you wore while together. Burn it. Your cell phone, sell it. The computer you used. Sell it. Give the money to your betrayed husband. 

6. Leave with your betrayed husband everything related to the marriage: photos, book, keepsakes. Why? Because you took your marriage and flushed it down the toilet. Why should you get to keep anything? You threw the marriage itself away. Your betrayed husband gets to decide what to do with these things and if he wants to give some things back to you... then that is a GIFT he is giving you.

7. Go get the DNA test done on your child. You can say all you want, it is his, but you have already shown yourself to be a phenomenal liar. Why should he believe you now? He may not be saying it, but the thought / question is certainly in the back of his mind.

8. Arrange for a polygraph to be done. Why? Your husband deserves to know (and I mean know) the truth. What he knows today is that you will lie directly to him about the most fundamental areas of trust in a marriage. Don't ask him if he wants it. Set it up and invite him to come. If he won't go, go anyways. Have the report drawn up and give it to him.

You have said want to change. What I just wrote are the ACTIONS of someone who is remorseful, really wants to change, and accepts full responsibility for their actions. 

You don't need to apologize. You need to make amends.


----------



## Shaggy

The problem isn't that you loved two people at the same time.

The problem is utterly betrayed one of them.


----------



## warlock07

> 1. Submit your resignation from your job. Go talk to whomever is in charge and ask to be released from the remainder of your contract. It is toxic.


This is a moot point. She can have affairs anywhere. The OM moved away..No point if they are having a divorce


----------



## giashasa2012

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did love OM. I have said that since D-Day #1 to BH. I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.



To be in love with more then one person is possible.
That is to have feelings for more then one person .Nothing more ,...only to have feelings

But love is not only feelings, it's also action . Action toward someone, motivated by our feelings ,with his/her well-being and happiness ,as our primary objective ,to the extent of self-sacrifice.

But before we can act toward someone ,our attention must be directed to that person. We must be thinking , ...dreaming about him for what ever reason. 

What reasons....., sometimes it is demanded by everyday situations, other times because its pleasurable to us

But our attention can hold only one thing at the time . 
We can only think one think at a time , do only one think at a time .

And what captures our attention always is the new stimulus , the new person. 
Every free second of the day we have ,is dedicated to the new person.
Every thought , every dream ,every hope.
Why ?.... Because its NEW because its EASY.

The other person in our life , the old one , the one that we know for so long, and for that reason has become boring , is remembered only if it is demanded and interacted only at a minimum for that reason

And sometimes we are angry at him/her ,because to live with someone every day , means , problems must be solved ,compromises and sacrifices must be made, and that is difficult.

One more reason ,to think about the new person more.
Our life with him/her has no everyday real life problems to solve .Life with him/her is only fun and exciting. What a great escape.......

.....Apologies , I said life with him , I meant time with him , because to try to organise some time to meat , to write a Email or sms and find time to **** , that is not life .Life is full of problems ,compromises , and sacrifices. 
That is fantasy time , escape time .....it' a bubble. It is very easy do do such things ,no real cost. 

The resources ... , energy , time , attention, ... , that one must invest to be able to love someone (act with love) , are finite .
And that is the reason ,when one loves to people , the new one will receives the lion-share of the attention , the other takes what is left..... if something is left. 

And never forget that when you not think about something you forget it sooner or later.

Out of sight , out of mind , ........ out of love


What do you think , can someone love two people ?


----------



## SoulStorm

Mrs. M,

I really see no point in any of us giving you any advice at this point.
You have been nothing but dishonest from day one and how can any advice given right now be any good to you?
You are still fresh with manipulation and deception.
You have no idea of what you have done.
Your anguish and pain really derives from your BH and everyone else finding out how callous, cold,manipulating and narcissistic you are.
Actors and theatre people tend to be self centered. It's part of the art. You have to know yourself and be able to recreate yourself for roles.
How accomodating to be the star in your own real-life drama.
How fascinating it must have been to slip from the role of adultress to role of part-time wife and mother .
Reality is people play these roles everyday and their is no award for best actor or actress.
There is no academy award or oscar.
The only reward could be reconciliation, but sadly the way you did this makes that, for your situation now, improbable.

Reading your post is like reading from someone who can't separate the world of drama from the world of reality.
You struggle to grasp it and only now when you see the consequences of your theatrics do you realize the gravity of your transgressions.
You have a long way to go and I do not blame your BH for not wanting to be with you as you try to figure this out.

I would mark him insane to even try with you. You are a dangerous woman at this point.

I don't believe a word you post now. That's just me, it's your BH who must be the one convinced.
This will be my last post to you because I believe it will be a LONG time before you really truly grasp the magnitude of hurt you have caused Dr. Mathias.
What you see now is only the tenth of the tip of an iceberg the size of Russia.


----------



## A++

Mrs_Mathias said:


> he deserves far more than I have given him.


:iagree:

This is about the only true words you wrote on both this and your deleted thread.


----------



## Wazza

aug said:


> They are all calculating. Some are just better at it.


Better or more committed?

To me the bottom line question is whether a cheating spouse cares that hey did wrong or cares that they were caught. If they don't care that they did wrong they will not try to do right.

MrsM was not just sustaining the lie where she had to. She was expanding it.

I hope for her sake and the child's that she comes to have some appreciation of what she has actually done.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Why is everyone talking about her rather than to her? lol

Mrs M...quite frankly, I do not think you are sincere about saving your marriage or healing your husband. As a wayward, you have to look your husband in the eye and tell him that you gave away something that should have been only his. That's a tough thing to do and sometimes the shame and regret and remorse is overwhelming but that is the price you pay for trying to fix it.

Concentrate on your child. Share custody, and BE A MOTHER. You are a piss-poor wife but shoot woman, you OWE your child the chance to have a mother who is present! This is coming from one mother to another. 

I'm not going to slam you for your OBVIOUS abuse of your husband. You know darn well the lies and the backstabbing and the sneaking around are WRONG. I am begging you to stand up for your child and take care of him. Do not deprive him of his mother OR father. Show him through your actions that you are REMORSEFUL for hurting his father, that your husband may not take you back, but you can darn well be a better person.


----------



## SadSamIAm

AnnieAsh said:


> Why is everyone talking about her rather than to her? lol
> 
> Mrs M...quite frankly, I do not think you are sincere about saving your marriage or healing your husband. As a wayward, you have to look your husband in the eye and tell him that you gave away something that should have been only his. That's a tough thing to do and sometimes the shame and regret and remorse is overwhelming but that is the price you pay for trying to fix it.
> 
> Concentrate on your child. Share custody, and BE A MOTHER. You are a piss-poor wife but shoot woman, you OWE your child the chance to have a mother who is present! This is coming from one mother to another.


Didn't you read the entire thread? 

She is a 'piss-poor' mother as well. She spent all her time working and 'playing' with her students. She never spent any time with her son or husband.


----------



## CH

What Annie said, horrible spouse material right now. But you *can* still be a great mom to your kid, agrees on this point. I have no doubt you were once a good or even great spouse in the past. But there is the distinction, in the past. There is no going back to the past.

Like one poster jokingly stated, if you can build the flux capacitor and run 1.2 gigawatts into it and strap it into a DeLorean, your "Do Over" choice isn't going to happen. BTW if you do build it, remember you gotta hit 88 MPH to activate the time machine.

Now, how about we concentrate on helping Mr. Mat instead, his thread is the one we should be posting on instead of bashing Mrs. Mat here. Until she's ready to change, direct our efforts to the person who wants and needs the support right now.

I'm all for helping the WS, hell I was one, but those that are still crying a river and asking what about me...Nothing to help at this point.


----------



## aug

Wazza said:


> Better or more committed?


better. like everything else, some are just more talented, creative, smarter and luckier than others.


----------



## AnnieAsh

SadSamIAm said:


> Didn't you read the entire thread?
> 
> She is a 'piss-poor' mother as well. She spent all her time working and 'playing' with her students. She never spent any time with her son or husband.


That would be why I am URGING her to turn that around.


----------



## aug

SadSamIAm said:


> Didn't you read the entire thread?
> 
> She is a 'piss-poor' mother as well. She spent all her time working and 'playing' with her students. She never spent any time with her son or husband.


And since the son is 2 years old now, his main bonding/imprinting was with his father.


----------



## cpacan

Mrs. Matt, I will run the risk of taking a shot for you, just the way I do at home with my own WW.

You are a human being, flawed like everybody else. Deep down, I even believe that you are a real person, who aren't happy with the face you're watching in the mirror. You can't be happy with yourself, with the way things turned out, and with your own very bad choices.

If you kick yourself in the butt and start figuring out who you really are at the moment, and who you want to be in the future, and find a decent way to get there, you have my moral support and encouragement. This is not me taking side against your BH, but I just hope for you to get your mind straightened out, mostly for the sake of your kid.

Take care, of yourself AND your family.

So do the right thing, you know what it is, even if you have too search a bit.


----------



## jim123

Annie makes a good point, however, I am sure Matt will do a better job picking a wife next time (not that it is goig to be hard to trade up). Some people are not meant to be married nor meant to be parents.

It is different when you put food a the table and have to sacrifice for the greater good and do not spend time with your family to do so. The Mrs choose not to be with her 2 year old or her husband. if you could see the old thread, you will see a few comments that say she almost looked down on Matt as he took care of her son.

The Mrs problems run very deep and beyond what any of us can help with. She was working with an MC and it did not help one bit. She came here and it did not help either.

She has(had) a husband who did a lot for her. He stayed home with the son as she did what she wanted away from the family. She has not given up anthing. In many ways she had a dream husband. He is educated, stable and a good father. I assume a good husband too.

She takes up with a basic loser. 21 years old and going nowhere. Only a two year degree, working at a fast food restruant and living with his parents. That's a man to be proud of! Nice way for a 36 year old mother to act. I though this only happened in Fast Times and Ridgemont High or something like that. 

The Mrs's issues are way beyond her marriage. She is very self destructive.

Mrs you have to step back and she how was there any confusion.

Mrs talks about the OM being over but you do not say how or why. My guess it is no.

People can change but they have to address the real issues to complete the process. There is too much justification in that she was confused. There is not enough guilt, Not enough regret. I do not think she thinks the affair was wrong. Her comments that it was the only way to end her confusion is as selfish as it gets. She does regret hurting her husband but that will go away.

You need to get help and actually listen to the help.  You have to be a better person before you can be a better wife or mom.


----------



## AlphaHalf

What do you have to say about the skype chat that was posted by matt???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

I would suggest to pay back your husband for any money he spent (and wasted) on MC this year. You had no intention of being honest and faith or working on the marriage, so the money was essentially fraudulently spent.


----------



## Michie

Only through a cOmplete CHANGE of your BEHAVIORS will show your husband that you want your relationship and family.

A complete opening of yourself complete honesty, and understanding and compassion of your husbands pain and acknowledging it every moment of every day and you are the cause. What do now will show him that you are present and will do what and whatever it takes to lessen the soul shattering experience you both r going through.

My thoughts are with you and your husband and son!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias
This is an internet forum. Take what you need and leave the rest.
With this I mean read what sounds like advice and weight it. Discard what is not. Read other people's threads. Also, there are more sources. Many people is pissed off, partly becuase the latest DDay happened after you came here.

There's a way. Believe me.


----------



## ilou

I'm not helping any saying this, but it must have been heartbreaking for your husband. Losing his hard work and undivided love after so many years to a 21 year old.

Good luck lady. You need to redeem yourself as a good mother because when your son grows up, he'll know what happened. I feel very sad thinking what'll come in his future. Not grasping the idea why your mom and dad split for something that seemed so ludicrous

You have a few years before he starts making his opinion. What's done is done. It'd be crazy if you did the same thing again.


----------



## shazam

ilou said:


> I'm not helping any saying this, but it must have been heartbreaking for your husband. Losing his hard work and undivided love after so many years to a 21 year old.
> 
> Good luck lady. You need to redeem yourself as a good mother because when your son grows up, he'll know what happened. I feel very sad thinking what'll come in his future. Not grasping the idea why your mom and dad split for something that seemed so ludicrous
> 
> You have a few years before he starts making his opinion. What's done is done. It'd be crazy if you did the same thing again.


he was 21?


----------



## ilou

shazam said:


> he was 21?


Sorry about my error. I got confused after reading between other threads. I'll edit it if I'm wrong. How old is he?


----------



## MattMatt

ilou said:


> Sorry about my error. I got confused after reading between other threads. I'll edit it if I'm wrong. How old is he?


There is one person Mrsm must be honest with and that is herself. When she can do this she can be honest with docm and help him heal no matter how he wants to heal, together, divorce, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

ilou said:


> Sorry about my error. I got confused after reading between other threads. I'll edit it if I'm wrong. How old is he?


yes, he's 21 or thereabouts. She's around 36 or so.


----------



## Doc Who

If you are still around, good luck with your healing. You have far to go to get to healthy. I am sure Matt wants you to be healthy for your next real relationship.

But now, LET MATT GO. Get out of the house. Sign the divorce papers. Let him have SOME dignity in the settlement and just get away from him so he can move on. Even arrange for child drop off so he doesn't have to see you. Keep communication about your son to a minimum unless it is about real issues.

See, here the reality. When it is clear he is moving on and finds a woman who can really love him with commitment and not in a destroying selfish way, you will hate him. You will not care about him (becasue it is clear you care only about yourself). You will still pine for OM or some pathetic excuse of a 21 year old that you think loves you and that you love. You will not change (at least not now) because it is clear to everyone reading here you are still lying - mostly lying to yourself.

Matt deserves to heal. With you around, he will not. If you are not the soulless monster most think you are, GRANT HIM THAT DIGNITY.

It may hurt now to let him go (fully - as in divorce and get out), but at least you can look back and know there was one good thing you did in all this sordid disatster you caused.


----------



## JCD

I am just coming to the party late, but I wanted to put my two cents in because A) it isn't like most of the other advice and B) because I want to.

First off, I get your story. I was in an EA as well (never a PA but that was probably lack of opportunity more than anything). I fully understand the multiple slips and decisions which suddenly have you saying/feeling/doing things which you never in a million years envisioned doing just 12 months before.

That doesn't mean I'm sympathetic, but I understand. It's easy to see the hurt as a betrayed spouse. They frequently don't understand HOW it happens.

On to HOW it happened. I think that the affair is a symptom, and not a cause. It's a pretty damne HARSH symptom, but a symptom.

The problem is the nature of your job and how you are able to control it.

You can't control it. Other people are probably able to live in the dramatic hot house environment of Theater with marriages and self esteem intact, but you do not seem to be one of them.

When it came to the plaudits of nicely dressed strangers who said kind things and the plaudits of your family...well...we all see which was more important. It was a revealed preference for a long time, not something you can evade.

See, even though it's hard work, theater has tons of ego kibbles. Doubly so when you are a TEACHER. All these attractive young people looking to you as God. It doesn't have the messy issues with a real relationship with a husband. On stage, you never see a bathroom on the set. Unfortunately, real life relationships sometimes deal with 'cleaning toilets' (a metaphor) All the pink lights in the world won't make 'cleaning toilets' glamorous.

So, you say you are getting whatever job you can if/when your husband moves. Good for you. You say you are going to do a lot of heavy lifting to prove to him that you are now 'on board'.

Being a semi intelligent woman (albeit with poor self control and boundary issues) you realize that YOU will have to do ALL the heavy lifting here. Every bit! Your husband just plain won't expend the effort. So that means you need to keep full track of where you are and who you are with at all times. If he says "I don't care" keep doing it!

You need to cut relations with that B!tch Theater. SHE is the issue. Glamour is another word for Illusion. That is what you've been left with and it doesn't fill the soul for more than a performance. And to get it back you need to do it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN!

Now in your now deleted thread, you stated that you 'didn't think it was fair to put be shattered while you are trying to fix your family' or something like that when the issue of quiting the theater was brought up.

Let me say, and I mean this as kindly as possible, that the "YOU" they got when you were in Theater wasn't exactly a prize for your husband and son. Shattering that is probably a step in the right direction.

But...recall this.

Mark Twain in his Innocent's Abroad tale talked about the mosaic craftsmen in Florance who took these little grains of shattered glass and sand and put them together into beautiful bits of art.

So being shattered is not the end of the world.

I wish you luck in your hopefully long term portrayal of loyal and respectable wife and mother...IF you can get the role. The Venue is rather small, with an audience of two, but at this point, you should feel lucky to get even that big a break.


----------



## Affaircare

Hi MrsM~

Sorry it took so long to get here. If you don't mind, I want to jump right in and start talking to you, and I really do hope you'll at least come back and read this post. I know it may feel like people are bashing on you a bit here, but I would encourage you to keep two things in mind: 1) We actually do care about you and DocM and hope to get you two the help you need; thus, we do tell you the truth, and the real live truth can sometimes be painful!....and 2) Many of the people who come here to TAM and stay and write were LOYAL spouses, and thus hearing your story, what you thought and felt, what you've done...can really trigger some nasty memories and feelings. It reminds people of what they went through with their own spouse, and the pain is excruciating... so that kind of gets project onto you. 

If you bear those two things in mind, and kind of read with a grain of salt, you may actually get some really wise stuff here. Also, this is just my own personal opinion, but chances are better you'll get a reply that's more understanding from some of us who are former disloyals ourselves. AnnieAsh is a good lady and I was able to help her not slip over the edge of the cliff... EI and Regret are good disloyals...ChangingMe and CSS are also disloyals who have been in your shoes (so to speak) and may be able to offer some guidance. However, you should know this too: I doubt if you're going to find anyone anywhere on TAM that encourages continued lying, encourages the affair, or promotes ending the marriage so you can go after the OM. We tend to be pretty pro-marriage where possible but definitely ANTI-AFFAIR...so if you're looking for people to say "Aww poor you. I can totally see why you committed adultery. You deserved it"... well that most likely will not happen here. 



> Many of you have been reading my BH's thread, Three Strikes. You know my web of lies has completely fallen apart over the last 5 days. It has been overwhelmingly shaming and painful for both of us. I deleted my original thread without reading any of the additional comments since the last exposure. It was cowardly, and I truly believe people here are trying to help us. So I've come back after some sleep, to try to restart. Here's the gory details.


Well I can't speak for everyone here but a) I wish you hadn't have deleted that original thread, as there were several really good clues and topics in what you wrote that I think will be key in your recovery. Now I'll have to do it by memory! OY VEY  lol and b) I can only say that I am so very disappointed that you chose to lie not only to your husband, but also to us. Look I don't care how gory, sl_tty and awful it was, if you tell us the truth, we can work with it and get out of the mire--but if you lie to us, it's pretty much the ultimate disrespect. Know why? Because without even bothering to know us, what you act as if we are not mature enough and adult enough to handle the truth. And nothing personal, but if it is like that for us (anonymous strangers on a forum) imagine how magnified that disrespect is for the one man on the planet who is supposed to know you intimately? And that doesn't just mean sexual intimacy (hey let's be honest, even that isn't "exclusive" any more)....I'm talking about he's supposed to know the True You warts and all...know the ins and outs of what you think and feel...and share all of life with you!!

Still what's done is done now. Just bear in mind lying, deleting your first post...that's pretty much starting off on the wrong foot. 

Now, AnnieAsh can tell ya. At times it can feel like a feeding frenzy with sharks smelling blood in the water...BUT no matter how dirty, messy or foggy her thoughts or feelings were, she could tell us the truth. Okay I admit some folks get right to that line of calling names, but the vast majority will settle down and try to help ... but our one requirement is to be honest! So from this point forward, I don't care if you think it will shock us, hurt us, hurt your family, etc. TELL THE TRUTH. Okay? 

Alrighty, so let's go over the situation. You wrote us a timeline: 



> Affair Timeline
> 
> January/February 2012 – EA began
> May 20 – PA begins w/kiss
> May 29 – PA escalates with oral sex in office
> May 31 – Left for NYC, online communications continue
> 3rd week of June – Sexting begins
> 1st /2nd week of July – Webcam shows
> July 17th – return from NYC, visit OM’s house, oral sex, D-Day #1, NC message sent, lies about no oral sex and date of PA commencement
> 3rd or 4th week of August – OM breaks NC, shows up at office
> Last week of August – Bad feeling regarding OM’s “okay”
> 1st or 2nd week of September – Saw OM on street walking, shortly after Skyping resumes, primarily messaging during the day with some short video chats
> 2nd or 3rd week of September – drive-throughs, book exchange begins
> End of Sept./beginning of October – PA resumes, first penetrative sex at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues – false goodbye
> 2nd week of October – encounter in sound booth, Skyping/book exchange continues
> 3rd /4th weeks of October – 2 more sexual encounters at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues
> November 2/3 – Spring Awakening, sex at Jillian’s, “romantic” goodbye/agreement to stay friends
> November 10 – Skype messaging
> November 11 or 12 – visit OM’s home before he moves to say geographic goodbye
> November 12 or 13 – Skyping messaging to see if he’s moved/settled
> November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R (no confession of past events),
> November 14? 16? - began removing ephemera of OM from office, deleting Skype from phone/ipad
> November 17 – D-Day #2, continued lying until cornered regarding sex at Jillian’s, lied about additional sex, told about drive-throughs/book exchanges, omitted Skyping/office visit
> November 18 – Final Skype message to OM, letting him know BH knows, OM is already aware, told him we are done messaging.
> November 20 – BH asks me to leave house for few days
> November 21 – D-Day #3, BH calls while I am staying with friends, asks about Skyping. Lie before I even think… backtrack and spill about skyping, additional sex – short convo, no real details given, conference call with parents
> November 22 – Return home, sit down with BH and confess affair from beginning to end, providing details and answering questions after completion, in-house separation begins


So from what I can see, all this was going on literally until a few days ago. You wrote to the OM less than a week ago, and that contact was after you knew that your affair had been discovered. Now bear in mind, I'm not saying that judgmentally but rather checking factually. Is that right? 

The reason I ask is that if you had ended your affair a few months ago, hadn't really been in touch for a couple months, but had covered it up--that means you would have gone through the withdrawal and the OM wouldn't be part of your life or part of your head. OTOH if you two said you'd "only be friends" but kept in contact, kept talking, kept skyping and texting and whatnot--that means you have not yet gone through the withdrawal and the OM is still part of your life and your head. I hate to keep using AnnieAsh as an example...you may want to read her post here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/54243-im-wife-emotional-affair.html ... but her OM was still very much part of her head when she came here. If that is where you are at...if some of your head still thinks of him and misses him and whatnot even though you know that it hurts your husband and has harmed your family...well some of us have been there and I can tell ya, you CAN get over that and passed it. And the way to get over it and get past it is not to continue to lie and pretend. 

I know it sounds kind of counter-intuitive, but one of the best ways to get the OM out of your head, is to actually tell the truth and talk OPENLY with your husband. MrsM those of us who were disloyal have all done this--we have all put our spouses into a bad light so that we can justify doing what we know is wrong. Thus, we say to ourselves that our spouse has anger issues, or is ignoring us, or is controlling as a way of excusing ourselves in our own heads...and in real life they aren't perfect (don't get me wrong), but in real life the surest way to really fix this mess is to be utterly, totally, well BRUTALLY honest. 

Envision a cut on your arm that has gangrene. You don't cure the gangrene by leaving it alone...it will spread and grow! To cure gangrene, you cut out the infection until you see the healthy stuff and you even cut out a little of the healthy tissue just to make sure you got it all. It's the same here. You have to get rid of ALL the lies, ALL the false fronts, ALL the covering up and even if you're afraid you won't be liked for you...be the True You. 



> We are proceeding toward divorce. BH loves me, but I am not good for him at this time. Massive changes in my communication, selfishness, fear, and focus need to happen before I can be a good parent, let alone a good wife (or even a not completely-awful-wife).


Well honestly I would wave a magic wand and wish you two could reconcile, but by the same token I have to admit I understand why DocM would say "no more." I can't honestly say I'd stay with a person who disrespected me like that--would you? I mean if I treated you like that, lied to you to your face over and over, hurt you over and over when you told me it hurt you and I still did it anyway, and expected you to give me another chance just because I SAID I was changing all the while I was continuing to do it some more and cover it up...would you stay in a relationship with me? Or would you tell me to take a hike? See, it's reasonable for a person to finally have enough. 



> He is exceptionally generous to allow me to stay in the house with our son, and we are going to have a lot of work in front of us as we D. With my first post here on Sunday, I wanted ideas for how to show him I was changing. Honestly, I don't know what my hopes are now, with this post. I just need to be accountable to someone, and you all are remarkably skilled at calling me on my bullshyte.


I'm going to give you a direct assignment almost. In your first post you wanted us to give you ideas how to show him you were changing...but in real life behind our backs even, you were contacting the OM to see if he got settled and warn him about your husband knowing. In real life you wanted to know how to make it LOOK like you were changing without actually doing anything different! LOL 

So here's my assignment to you. If you want us to work with you and give you ideas and things, you have to .... HAVE TO...do something different! It can not be "the same" or "the way it was." Those are gone and dead now. Take a peek at this thread here on TAM: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 This thread talks about some of the things that are required of a Disloyal Spouse, and they are concrete ACTIONS that absolutely MUST be taken in order to begin to rebuild trust. Bear in mind, it is not that your husband has trust issues with you at all--oh no!! He trusts you 100% to lie to him. Every word that comes out of your mouth is not trustworthy (notice that word? worthy of trust). So to build trust the first thing it says is to write a No Contact Letter to the OP. 

In your instance you supposedly already ended it, blah blah blah and yet you were in touch with him just last weekend. AND to this date you have in no way, shape or form that I can distinguish given your husband the DIGNITY of seeing that you pick him over the OM, that you're willing to suffer some difficulty in order to protect him, or that you are including him in your life and decisions. So far you "say" it's over with you and OM, but what do we know? That every word coming out of your mouth is not trustworthy! Sooo...assignment #1 is to look at the link about Sample No Contact Letters. Think about them. Learn from them. Then write one as close to the examples as you can whilst also including some of your own writing style etc., and give that letter TO YOUR HUSBAND. The goal here is not for you to recontact the OM...the goal is to give HIM the dignity of being able to defend himself and his family. Once he has the letter, he can send it with HIS name on it. He can show OM that he will be defending his family and won't go down easy. He can add his own personal note on there about demanding no further contact. And once your husband has mailed that letter, OM knows that your hubby knows where he is AND now has the legal recourse to prosecute him if he does recontact you. This gives your hubby dignity, protection, and the upper hand....AND it is an action you can take that shows you're willing to protect HIM (not the OM) and think of HIM (not the other man). 

See how that's a change? ACTING different will demonstrate to him that you've changed; SAYING you've changed while acting the same = LIE!! Get it? 

Okay assignment #2...look at the second thing in that link: transparency. The goal is to think of it like you and I and everyone lives in sort of a "bubble" and you want your bubble to be clear and see through...so he can see through to the True You. If you are ashamed, I'm not saying you should grovel or be put down, but you should not hide it. Tell him you're feeling ashamed. SHARE IT. Sharing = intimacy = being known = transparency. Soooo...look at the list of things in #2 like sharing passwords and email addresses and cell phones and begin to VOLUNTARILY share these things with your husband. Okay I get it; it feels like you have no privacy and he's checking up on you and stuff. I get that! But up to now your idea of privacy hasn't been "private" which is like closing the door to go to the bathroom (aka modesty)....it's been SECRET which is covering things up! When you are married to someone you are supposed to share all of you..with them! ALL of it!! Good and bad. Gross and great. So start with the ways that you stayed in touch with OM--those are the ways right now that are the most dangerous for you. GIVE THOSE TO YOUR HUSBAND. And I don't mean "HUH fine here. You can have skype" with an attitude. I mean "Sweetheart in an effort to share myself with you, I would like to open my my skype to you so you can see who's on my contact list, see my chats, and just see me." If you, as a person, are prone to being vulnerable to flattery and whatnot in skype, then you know what? Be honest with yourself and make the choice to protect your MARRIAGE by deleting skype!! What's worth more to you? Skype is a silly software for crying out loud and most of those compliments on there are only said because someone wants something from you! 

Okay assignment #3 is also #3 from that link, and this one is the hardest. A lot of people, well I love ya but they are not brave enough to face themselves and face the mess they made and stand up to stop doing the wrong thing and do the Right Thing! It's easy to continue to lie or continue to avoid conflict or continue to deny that it's them. This is probably the hardest step, because you will have to face what you've done and not run away. Like AnnieAsh (I keep bringing her up) she didn't want to tell her husband she had feelings for another man, and we had to encourage her to be brave and do it, AND that it was reasonable for him to be angry but not abusive. It's reasonable for your husband to be hurt, hurt, more hurt and then Double hurt because you lied to him over and over and over. If I were counseling him, I tell him to take a step back, disengage from you, separate and leave it up to you with a certain deadline in his mind. Then..observe and see what you do. 

If you mean it, and I mean really COMMIT do to doing the work to fix yourself, then you will do the work to look for a counselor you like who takes your insurance who is pro=marriage. You will make the appointment yourself, get the time off, and drive yourself there on your own because you want it that bad. You will treat your husband in DIFFERENT ways and sometimes the new way will work and sometimes it won't and you'll have to say "Well I'll have to try that again, but next time I'll do this..." You will get some books on your own about being the disloyal spouse and how to save a marriage after an affair. Shoot.....PM me and I can show you some great resources!!

My point is this: #3 means that you decide you want it THAT BAD. Not saving your marriage--that may already be a lost cause, we're not sure--but recovering you so you are a better woman and wife and mother. So assignment #3 would be to think about this third step and think of a way to ACT (always ACT, don't say) like you are committed to fixing you, and then ACT on doing the fixing! Make sense? 

So you have three assignments... 



> ... My relationship with OM is done, so I am ready to re-commit to BH. It's unforgivable, and he deserves far more than I have given him.


Let me ask you this. If you and I were married and I said to you "Oh you know, every other possibility is no longer interesting so now I'm willing to commit to you" would you take that as a compliment or as acceptable? You would be my last choice! 

No you want your spouse to be held to the highest esteem and regard. You want them to at least think that you could have picked any number of choices but that they were wanted, desirable and precious enough to you that you chose them above all the others. MrsM, you don't own your husband a commitment after you've run out of options with OM....you owe him commitment because of the kind of woman YOU ARE. You see, a woman who says on her wedding day she will forsake all others and love her husband until death parts them is making a PROMISE. Now the issue is this: are you the kind of woman with the character to honor your promises? Do you have the moral fiber to do what you committed to even when it's scary or hard? If you are--look don't get me wrong but I've known people, myself included, who were people of a strong character who did something very wrong and then turned themselves around and became WHO THEY ARE again. Are you that way? Do you love your husband like an adult--who loves because they committed to being a student of that person for life--or like a teenager who waits for butterflies and empty words and infatuation and then tries to keep that high going? 

Either way, stop saying you are ready to commit because the OM is gone. That dishonors your husband, because it means if no one else is around, you'd take him. Nope! Instead, commit because you are ready to MAKE THE COMMITMENT AND MEAN IT! He is your husband--it is due to him. 



> Someone posted in my deleted thread about redemption. I didn't see the post, but really need change to be possible. I love my son. And despite my actions, I actually do love my BH. It's certainly too little, too late there, but for my son's future, I need help.


Welll...you have 3 assignments. Let's see how much you mean this. Do the work, tell us what you came up with and thought and felt etc., and let's see what happens.


----------



## 827Aug

Affaircare said:


> Well I can't speak for everyone here but a) I wish you hadn't have deleted that original thread, as there were several really good clues and topics in what you wrote that I think will be key in your recovery. Now I'll have to do it by memory! OY VEY  lol and b) I can only say that I am so very disappointed that you chose to lie not only to your husband, but also to us. Look I don't care how gory, sl_tty and awful it was, if you tell us the truth, we can work with it and get out of the mire--but if you lie to us, it's pretty much the ultimate disrespect. Know why? Because without even bothering to know us, what you act as if we are not mature enough and adult enough to handle the truth. And nothing personal, but if it is like that for us (anonymous strangers on a forum) imagine how magnified that disrespect is for the one man on the planet who is supposed to know you intimately? And that doesn't just mean sexual intimacy (hey let's be honest, even that isn't "exclusive" any more)....I'm talking about he's supposed to know the True You warts and all...know the ins and outs of what you think and feel...and share all of life with you!!
> 
> Still what's done is done now. Just bear in mind lying, deleting your first post...that's pretty much starting off on the wrong foot.


If Mrs. Mathias would like to resurrect her deleted thread we can do so at her request. We could even lock it to where no one could post on it (read only).


----------



## Acabado

Divorce takes time.
Just sayin'

NC, NC, NC. Nor searching online, h news from third parties.
It means mental NC too. De-romantize, de-glamourice.
Face the mirror.
Get someone (IC, BH¿) to unload, to tell out loud so you start seeing the insanitym the cracsk.
Get rid of reminders triggers.

Search the truth.


----------



## SomedayDig

I just got home, having been away for Thanksgiving. I had read both threads (I will read this fully, too) and I can only say this: Trickle Truth is the killer. For many BS's like me, it isn't WHAT was done...it is the lying ABOUT it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thank you all for the time and thought you have given to me. I am humbled by your offers of support after my continued lies and omissions. Since I returned home and confessed to BH, a lot has happened. My family came to town to check on us. My BH asked me to move out of our home, and I did today. Before I left, I wrote 5 NC letters using the sample someone posted for me. One for OM, one for each of his parents, and one for each of the friends who enabled us earlier this month. I shared Skype accounts with BH, and he messaged OM on them before changing my passwords so I have no access. I had already removed the programs from my phone and iPad last Friday. I saw my doctor for a full STD screen to set BH's mind at ease, and inquired about the process for a paternity test. I am trying to live change, not talk about it. We have an appointment with our attorney on Monday, and I have a counseling session on Friday. I really appreciate the assignments/advice given and will continue working on that.

I deleted my FB account on Monday of this week, and have decided to adopt a no-technology policy in my home. Matt is going to allow me to spend evenings after school with our son and help put him to bed each night. I don't want to squander any of that time not being present with the two of them. I'm sure it is too soon to know how I am doing regarding separating the OM from my thoughts/feelings, but I know I don't feel as I did 4 months ago when it "ended" the first time. I also called today and resigned from my summer job in NYC. So there's the beginning of my actions.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Also, I will ask the mods to resurrect my old thread. I apologize for my haste in deleting it. My emotions were running wild and I wasn't thinking about anything except the overwhelming negativity I expected to encounter. I know this forum is mostly BS's. I chose it because most of the rest I found were religious in nature, and Matt and I are not. My intentions in creating my first post were more honest than the details I provided. Thank you again to those who are sticking with me, despite who I've been. Whether I am married or divorced, I know this will be valuable to my future as a mom and a person, and hopefully, a wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I never said my love was pure. it was battered and damaged, and miniscule. It was leftover. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do I cry for myself? Yes. AND for my son, AND for my BH. IF I were to be allowed the opportunity to change within this relationship (because clearly, I'm going to work on changing outside of it) it's obvious that our lives are never again about what Matt can do for me. So how can I possibly be trying to hold on to that? I don't think my writing style reflects my emotions/expression very well. I'm not clinical, but it is ingrained in me to write with good grammar/punctuation.
> 
> I did love OM. I have said that since D-Day #1 to BH. I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.


No. You think you were In love with OM.

We're you infatuated? Yes.
We're you in lust? Most definitely.

Let us know in 6 months if you were really in love.

You of all people should not trust your own judgement.

You blew up your marriage. You blew up your family. You blew up your life. And you think you were in love?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

happyman64 said:


> No. You think you were In love with OM.
> 
> We're you infatuated? Yes.
> We're you in lust? Most definitely.
> 
> Let us know in 6 months if you were really in love.
> 
> You of all people should not trust your own judgement.
> 
> You blew up your marriage. You blew up your family. You blew up your life. And you think you were in love?


Fair point. I don't know how to classify those feelings yet. Perhaps it is more accurate to say I behaved as someone in love? IDK
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

MrsM, you are doing the right things, and you seem to have the right attitude, despite that many here especially your BH will remain doubtful. It very well may still never be enough to restore your marriage though, so please don't expect a guarantee that doing all these things we've advised, from our hard-earned perspective as betrayed spouses, will get you DrM in your life again. You will never have your old relationship back, but you may be able to have a very healthy relationship with yourself if you continue on the repentant path. You may even likely find forgiveness from him (though that too is not the same as R), which would make a world of difference for the child the two of you are raising.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by happyman64 *
> No. You think you were In love with OM.
> 
> We're you infatuated? Yes.
> We're you in lust? Most definitely.
> 
> Let us know in 6 months if you were really in love.
> 
> You of all people should not trust your own judgement.
> 
> You blew up your marriage. You blew up your family. You blew up your life. And you think you were in love?
> 
> *By Mrs matthias*
> Fair point. I don't know how to classify those feelings yet. Perhaps it is more accurate to say I behaved as someone in love? IDK



I would not be surprised if you and the OM had some kind of spike in your emotions during your adultry. Emotions can not be trusted to be a good gauge of real love. Real love is giving and never selfish and inconsiderate. You and the other man were selfish and inconsiderate and I know you know that now.

You seem to be very driven by emotions and I hope to remind you of some of the criteria for love for the next time you consider a relationship with a man. If any man is inconsiderate of your child and chooses his selfish emotions over the well being of your child then he is driven by selfish emotions and not loves.

*Emotions not filtered through character standards are very dangerous and as you have found out very destructive to yourself and many others.*


Mrs. Matthias
A big CONGRADULATIONS on your last few posts. You have a great attitude and you are giving the best prove of your change with YOUR ACTIONS. 
BRAVO!


----------



## Broken at 20

Mr Blunt said:


> Mrs. Matthias
> A big CONGRADULATIONS on your last few posts. You have a great attitude and you are giving the best prove of your change with YOUR ACTIONS.
> BRAVO!


Yea...
Only took her what? 4 tries? 5 tries? To finally 'realize' what she has done and was doing.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> Mrs. Matthias
> A big CONGRADULATIONS on your last few posts. You have a great attitude and you are giving the best prove of your change with YOUR ACTIONS.
> BRAVO!
> 
> 
> *By Broken at 20*
> Yea...
> Only took her what? 4 tries? 5 tries? To finally 'realize' what she has done and was doing.



You are right broken; it is enough to make you puke!

*However, she is a mother and that child will need her. *
I would rather see her build her life back up than remain like she was.


----------



## CH

Broken at 20 said:


> Yea...
> Only took her what? 4 tries? 5 tries? To finally 'realize' what she has done and was doing.


She already gave those answers the 1st time around. Then pulled an allybabe, now she's giving the right answers again.

Words mean nothing at this point. Like you said, 1, 2 3, 4, 5, who knows how many chances she was given by Mat.

A cheater/liar is good at giving the right answers. Why do you think so many BS take their spouses back so many times, we sound soooo convincing. But more often then not, our actions never match what we're saying and promising.

Time will tell and only Mr. Mat will see if she's truly turning over a new leaf or blowing more smoke up our you know what.

I truly hope that this time it's for real.


----------



## keko

How nice, after your betrayed husband found more of the affair and kicked you out of the house all of a sudden you've become a changed person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

Did your young lover dump you?


----------



## JCD

keko said:


> How nice, after your betrayed husband found more of the affair and kicked you out of the house all of a sudden you've become a changed person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reconciliation is not a straight and broad path. It's twisty and sometimes loops back upon it's self.

By that reasoning, any alcoholic who slips up ONCE by taking a drink should be cast into the outer darkness. How many times have people tried to quit smoking? This isn't easy and having people essentially calling her a wh0re who CANNOT CHANGE is NOT helping.

The backsliding should make him MORE cautious. It doesn't mean she's stopped moving forward.

Sure, call her on faulty thinking. Call her on crappy rationalizations. The only person who can know her heart is herself...and even than, denial is a killer.

So Mrs. M, we are watching your ACTIONS because your checks aren't particularly good here. Keep us updated and more importantly, have your HUSBAND keep us updated. Sorry it came to that, but that's where we are.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all for the time and thought you have given to me. I am humbled by your offers of support after my continued lies and omissions. Since I returned home and confessed to BH, a lot has happened. My family came to town to check on us. My BH asked me to move out of our home, and I did today. Before I left, I wrote 5 NC letters using the sample someone posted for me. One for OM, one for each of his parents, and one for each of the friends who enabled us earlier this month. I shared Skype accounts with BH, and he messaged OM on them before changing my passwords so I have no access. I had already removed the programs from my phone and iPad last Friday. I saw my doctor for a full STD screen to set BH's mind at ease, and inquired about the process for a paternity test. I am trying to live change, not talk about it. We have an appointment with our attorney on Monday, and I have a counseling session on Friday. I really appreciate the assignments/advice given and will continue working on that.
> 
> I deleted my FB account on Monday of this week, and have decided to adopt a no-technology policy in my home. Matt is going to allow me to spend evenings after school with our son and help put him to bed each night. I don't want to squander any of that time not being present with the two of them. I'm sure it is too soon to know how I am doing regarding separating the OM from my thoughts/feelings, but I know I don't feel as I did 4 months ago when it "ended" the first time. I also called today and resigned from my summer job in NYC. So there's the beginning of my actions.


Dear Mrs_Mathias,

It sounds like you've made a good start on your way to a better place. As you know, it will be a long journey with fits and starts, twists and turns but, somehow, I have the feeling that you will get there.

God bless you and your family.


----------



## JCD

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Mrs_Mathias,
> 
> It sounds like you've made a good start on your way to a better place. As you know, it will be a long journey with fits and starts, twists and turns but, somehow, I have the feeling that you will get there.
> 
> God bless you and your family.


Well said. If you ever want grace, give grace.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Fair point. I don't know how to classify those feelings yet. Perhaps it is more accurate to say I behaved as someone in love? IDK
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can't you be embarressed? When he was born, you were in HS. You have been f'ing him in his parents basement. You visited at his place of work, a drive through.

Do you really want to introduce him to your family. Will you be proud of him at your 20th reunion. Are you ready to go to his in about 17 years. How about bringing him to work functions.

What type of man takes a married woman almost twice his age that has a two year old child. Is he the role model for your son? Is he capable of watching your son if you have to do out for a while?

Please get help for your very deep issues. This will have a big impact on your son.


----------



## Decorum

Mrs. Mathias,
Sometimes we dont even know what questions to ask.
We may recognize that we must change but we are lost as to what and how.

At those times we dont even know our own hearts, 
and even our desperation to find ourselves betrays us and distracts us.

What we think we need appears to others as ulteror motives .

At those times we need help,
but to receive help requires trust in someone and eventually in ourselves.

This is not a race, there is time to do it right.

It starts with a good counselor and our purpose to be true.

You can do this if you want, calmly, purposefully, thouroughly.

No one can stop you, you dont even need their approval.

The unexamined life is not worth living, but it is a daily commitment to honesty.
You have been long in a very dark way, 
if you walk in the light, in time it will be clear to others.

Doing it on a public forum seems suspect, but time will tell.

I wish you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

The quedtion has been asked several times, did the om end it?

Honesty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

You send an NC letter, you broke it with OM, so when are you going to broke the NC? today or tomorrow or wait until the dust settles?

I am asking this because you broke it with OM many times.

You said your last sex with Om was a good bye one. Why it was a good bye one? wasn't he ready to marry you? Was it because you feared Mr.M was moving on with another women and you will loose him?


----------



## jim123

Decorum said:


> The quedtion has been asked several times, did the om end it?
> 
> Honesty!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or is it really over.


----------



## A++

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have spent hours/days over the last 4 months reading about being in love with more than one person, questioning my true feelings for both, trying to sort out this whole mess.


But, your actions for the last months show you were in love with only one of them.

The one you gave yourself fully...


----------



## Kasler

^ Yes, there was nothing to sort out. 

The mere action of being in an affair is most definitely putting OM above husband, don't kid yourself.

And cut the drama.


----------



## JCD

Kallan Pavithran said:


> You send an NC letter, you broke it with OM, so when are you going to broke the NC? today or tomorrow or wait until the dust settles?
> 
> I am asking this because you broke it with OM many times.


Well, I would refer to this:



> July 17th – return from NYC, visit OM’s house, oral sex, *D-Day #1, NC message sent,* lies about no oral sex and date of PA commencement
> 
> Husband shows suspicions. Wife, while not honest, sends NC letter.
> 
> 3rd or 4th week of August – *OM breaks NC*, shows up at office
> Last week of August – Bad feeling regarding OM’s “okay”
> 
> One assumes that for almost a month, she kept NC. HE broke it. But it was enough to trigger her and she fell. I recall the first contact my 'friend' made with me after my NC chat with her. I was with my wife in a hotel and there were CHILLS over my body. I wanted to respond to her, but I did the right thing and told my wife immediately and offered to show it to her. This was an email. I don't know what I would have done if she came into my office and gave me a song and dance. This, of course, assumes she is telling the truth this time. But...I only have the information given so, I'll use it.
> 
> 1st or 2nd week of September – Saw OM on street walking, shortly after Skyping resumes, primarily messaging during the day with some short video chats
> 
> So after seeing him once, she sees him again and triggers. Note that there has NOT been a regular resumption of contact or sex AFAIK. She is trying...badly but trying.
> 
> 2nd or 3rd week of September – drive-throughs, book exchange begins
> End of Sept./beginning of October – PA resumes, first penetrative sex at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues – false goodbye
> 
> Well it took a month for her to start bouncing on him again. Obviously HE wasn't holding HER off. Not at 21. She is deep in the fog. Again an attempt at good bye, one presumes initiated by her. (Please answer that Mrs. M if you have time.)
> 
> 2nd week of October – encounter in sound booth, Skyping/book exchange continues
> 3rd /4th weeks of October – 2 more sexual encounters at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues
> November 2/3 – Spring Awakening, sex at Jillian’s, “romantic” goodbye/agreement to stay friends
> 
> Yeah, I'd like to know who initiated these good byes but hubby is clueless so far. So it's being initiated by ONE of them. I put my money on her, because he will be willing to bang her as long as he can keep it from his GF.
> 
> November 10 – Skype messaging
> November 11 or 12 – visit OM’s home before he moves to say geographic goodbye
> 
> Can't seem to let go, but the message is always that THIS is the last time. I hope THIS CURRENT TIME is the last time Mrs. M.
> 
> November 12 or 13 – Skyping messaging to see if he’s moved/settled
> November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R (no confession of past events),
> November 14? 16? - began removing ephemera of OM from office, deleting Skype from phone/ipad
> 
> If true, this is self willed.
> 
> November 17 – D-Day #2, continued lying until cornered regarding sex at Jillian’s, lied about additional sex, told about drive-throughs/book exchanges, omitted Skyping/office visit
> November 18 – Final Skype message to OM, letting him know BH knows, OM is already aware, told him we are done messaging.


Excoriate on the bad. Give credit for the good and the attempts. I see a flawed and weak woman who KNOWS the right thing. She is having a hard time DOING the right thing.


----------



## Affaircare

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Fair point. I don't know how to classify those feelings yet. Perhaps it is more accurate to say I behaved as someone in love? IDK


Okay think about this a moment. You are a grown woman, right? You're not a teen or just barely in your twenties, so I assume you are at least a little bit mature. Do you think that behaving like someone "in love" means locking eyes across a crowded room like star-crossed lovers and keeping secrets and stealing away to rendezvous? Is behaving like someone "in love" overcoming incredible obstacles so the two can be together? Is behaving like someone "in love" sending romantic little notes, and writing poems and songs, and being sappy and smooshy, and wearing matching outfits? LOL That's not behaving like someone "in love"--at least not like grown, mature, adults act. That's teenager stuff, or more importantly for you I think, THAT IS THEATER. That's nothing but acting and the world is your stage. 

Mature love is not like that at all. Mature love, between two adults, is when they make a promise to include that person in every aspect of their life, to walk down the road of life together, and whatever hardships come along, they vow to turn TOWARD each other and get through it together. When one is ill, the other will care for them. When one loses their job, the other will cut the budget and tighten the belt. When one has a family member die, the other has been by their side ALL THEIR LIFE and knows the person who died, and can comfort them by sharing memories. In other words, mature LOVE is an action and a choice every day. Every day could be the last day. Every day the two choose to respect each other and share life side by side. AND they have promised each other to forsake all others, and protect the marriage (and the family)... so they get to know themselves well enough to say "I have a weakness for this, so to protect my love, I will put this safeguard in place." 

Think about it: Which would be more loving behavior if I did it to you? A) All that theatrical romantic stuff? OR B) Committing to you to be a lifelong student of YOU and learning how to love you and help you grow to become a better woman? A) Teenage sweaty palms? or B) Treating you every day like I respect you and want to go down life's journey with you? 

One place you may want to start when thinking about everything, is to start with "What is Love?" I mean seriously, think of the people in your life who loved you. Some may be your parents but that's not true for everyone...but maybe a lifelong girlfriend or a aunt who treated you with actual love. Now...was it sweaty palms? I do understand that kind of love is like Love Of Relative vs. Lover so it is somewhat different... but is it really? Did they ACT as if they found you valuable and cared about you, your thoughts and your feelings? Did they want to know you and spend time with you and talk to you? Then if that is what you think of when you think of people in your life who really loved you...wouldn't that be how you act to the people YOU LOVE?

See people get really confused about this. Love isn't a feeling. Shoot, feelings come and feelings go! For us women, we can feel cuddly some times of the month, horny other times of the month, and cranky still other times! So if we based our decisions on "feelings" we'd be coming and going...married and divorced... OY it would be a mess! My feelings can change if I'm hungry or tired. Man imagine how messed up my life would be if I got tired, got cranky due to being tired, and just decided I didn't love my Dear Hubby at the moment and LEFT HIM! Well...I didn't have "feelings" for him, did I? 

So nope, we have to base on our decisions on something other than our "feelings". Hey I'm telling ya if Robert Downey Jr. or Johnny Depp walked in the room, I would have FEELINGS for them!! But you know what? That's not where my commitment lies. I made a promise to my husband to love HIM, and I want to be the kind of woman who has the internal moral compass to behaving lovingly and honor my promises. 

So think about it: "What Is Love?" Why not write to us about what you think it is and isn't?


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Great post AC.

Come on Mrs. M start thinking and responding!

Now is the time. Not tomorrow or a week later. But now.

So put on your thinking cap and really focus on these raw emotions.


----------



## JCD

Um...happy?

She implied and the Doc stated that she is cutting the electric umblical cord. She would rather focus her non theater time to her son and husband than us.

I can't fault that but it's likely she won't be posting much at all.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

JCD said:


> Um...happy?
> 
> She implied and the Doc stated that she is cutting the electric umblical cord. She would rather focus her non theater time to her son and husband than us.
> 
> I can't fault that but it's likely she won't be posting much at all.


I wi be posting, but it will most likely be early or late at night. I need some more time to think about what has been asked and try to sort out my thoughts/feelings about it. I don't want to do that while I can be with my family. Part of my brain is working on it all the time, but I'm really consciously trying to be in the now with my son, especially since it's likely this time is limited.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs. M,

When you think about what you had with the OM vs. what you had with your husband this may help. I found this definition of what mature and real love truly is and I thought it had the ring of truth.

_Love doesn't just happen. That is infatuation. Love is commitment. Love is a choice. Love is one sacrifice voluntarily offered after another for years on end._

Ponder those words for a moment when you try to sort out what has happened to you over the last year.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all for the time and thought you have given to me. I am humbled by your offers of support after my continued lies and omissions. Since I returned home and confessed to BH, a lot has happened. My family came to town to check on us. My BH asked me to move out of our home, and I did today. Before I left, I wrote 5 NC letters using the sample someone posted for me. One for OM, one for each of his parents, and one for each of the friends who enabled us earlier this month. I shared Skype accounts with BH, and he messaged OM on them before changing my passwords so I have no access. I had already removed the programs from my phone and iPad last Friday. I saw my doctor for a full STD screen to set BH's mind at ease, and inquired about the process for a paternity test. I am trying to live change, not talk about it. We have an appointment with our attorney on Monday, and I have a counseling session on Friday. I really appreciate the assignments/advice given and will continue working on that.
> 
> I deleted my FB account on Monday of this week, and have decided to adopt a no-technology policy in my home. Matt is going to allow me to spend evenings after school with our son and help put him to bed each night. I don't want to squander any of that time not being present with the two of them. I'm sure it is too soon to know how I am doing regarding separating the OM from my thoughts/feelings, but I know I don't feel as I did 4 months ago when it "ended" the first time. I also called today and resigned from my summer job in NYC. So there's the beginning of my actions.


Not on your list is a psychological evalutaion which you need very badly. I am not saying this to be mean. CJ is almost half your age and was a mentee of yours. You were in many ways a mother figure to him. This will impact CJ in his future relationships. What do you think he thinks about women? Do you think he respects women after his relationship with a much older married women? His next relationship will pay a very big price for what you did. What do you think CJ is going to think of marriage after this?

In a postion of power you abused your authority to seduce a much younger man. Look up the profile of a type of person who does that.

Before you try and fix your marriage or your relationship with you son, fix the issues within your self. Your posts and actions scream for help. Do not ignore or minimize these screams or actions.


----------



## Tony55

Mrs Mathias, your behavior doesn't suggest that you were 'in love' with your student, you were (and are still) in something called limerence (something greater than infatuation, but less than real, true love). Limerence for someone will only subside through 100% reciprocation, or upon discovery of something repulsive, or time (years). Limerence is intensified when there's adversity or the 'love' is unrequited. Limerence takes over your entire thinking process.

Even right now, you can't stop thinking of your student, almost every moment, of every day. If your thoughts are not on this other man, it's only because the reality of what your husband is doing, the divorce, is so earth shattering that it forces it's way through your limerent fog, but only a bit. (No need to deny this, I won't believe you. I'm an unbiased observer and from what I've read, it's absolutely clear to me.)

So, let me ask you this simple question, and maybe this has been asked already, I don't know, why are you not with your lover right now? Why have you not run off with him? Don't give me the reason you tell your husband, or the one you give yourself, give me the real reason. If I talked to your lover, and asked him that question, what would he tell me?

If you choose to answer my question, please keep it concise, it shouldn't require a long explanation. 

I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.

T


----------



## Michie

The only person mrs.m was "in love" since starting her affair was herself (not trying to be mean wanna make a point)

An A is an ultimate move in selfishness, and WS's only have one thing going on, and that is themselves, their needs, wants and desires, if this were not true would anyone be capable of cheating? Selfishness and lack of empathy seem to be key in wayward. If only for a brief moment in time, also overwhelming sense of entitlement seems common. 

At least thats what my life in TAM filter has shown me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I am really interested in all the different ideas and thoughts you are sharing about love. I have a lot more to think on the subject and try to clarify.

A few things I want to address, without trying to figure out how to multi-quote...

1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now.

2. There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.

3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.

4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true. 

5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.

6. Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


----------



## MattMatt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am really interested in all the different ideas and thoughts you are sharing about love. I have a lot more to think on the subject and try to clarify.
> 
> A few things I want to address, without trying to figure out how to multi-quote...
> 
> 1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now.
> 
> 2. *There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. * While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.
> 
> 3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.
> 
> 4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true.
> 
> 5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.
> 
> 6. Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


I am sorry to say that you were not, in reality, seeking psychological help. You lied to your therapist and you lied to your husband. And you lied to yourself.

You might now be seeking psychological help, but you were not doing this before.

It was like someone with a migraine taking an indigestion tablet. Yes, it *was* a medication, but not efficacious, because it was the *wrong medicine*.


----------



## MEM2020

MM, 
To demonstrate you are changing keep performing acts of service for Matt when you are home. Don't talk about how YOU feel, how you are sad. Do stuff for him. 

What you DO matters more than how you feel. 

As for the baby - you bet Matt was stressed. 

Before the baby, the pecking order was you, your career, your students, and then Matt. When you put the baby ahead of Matt it was just one more confirmation that he was last. And Matt is part of the problem as he let this happen. 

Learn to read Matts body language and then if you hink you know what he wants, confirm it with a question.


----------



## happyman64

*And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true. *

Now you are beginning understand you cannot trust any of your feelings.

You have been out of touch with reality for months.

So as you start to come out of the fog, be truthful with your therapist I hope you will begin to see the light. 

With that light comes the visual of the damage you have brought down on your family.

Do not walk away from it.

Deal with it. Be there to comfort Dr M in any way he decides is ok.

And now you will begin to see why I asked you if you really know what love is?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Bfree
> Love is commitment. Love is a choice. Love is one sacrifice voluntarily offered after another for years on end.


Very good bfree!

I would like to add a few to your information
*Loyalty, faithfulness and “does not seek its own”*



These character standards above are time tested and have worked for centuries.


Buying into some of the modern crap that you see in movies, TV, romance novels, FEELINGS, and selfish desires will get you the kind of pain that Mrs. Matthias and many others are experiencing. *Sometimes the consequences are permanent and affect innocent children.* 


I know some people do not like blunt truths but that does not change truth.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am really interested in all the different ideas and thoughts you are sharing about love. I have a lot more to think on the subject and try to clarify.
> 
> A few things I want to address, without trying to figure out how to multi-quote...
> 
> 1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now.
> 
> 2. There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.
> 
> 3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.
> 
> 4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true.
> 
> 5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.
> 
> 6. Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


1) Meh. You didn't see a future but you couldn't see how to stop things. I keep thinking about that bit of text that Dr. sent to us that you sent the CJ and it's not good. But then I think about exactly what I wrote to my 'friend' about how, because of the rotteness of my marriage, I cared more about her than about my wife. I am mortified to read that now...but it was 100% true at the time! To keep out of that 'feeling of love/limerance/lust whatever, consider how right now your future with ANYONE looks pretty bleak until you make some changes.

2) What Happyman65 said. NOW you can start digging. But recall that there are a lot of bad therapists around. This is not a mulligan. It means that if you don't see any progress, it's probably because you aren' making any progress.

3) Yeah. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. I rejected two ultimatums from the wife until I finally started changing. After all, she was 'my friend'. And I wasn't boinking her, so that made it both easier to justify, but also less emotionally entangling. 

Two words for any students or non-relative males you encounter in the future

*PROFESSIONAL DISTANCE*

4) Please! It was fear. Fear of looking horrible. Fear of hurting your husband. Fear of losing your kid. You knew what you were doing. You are REASONS for what you were doing. But it was one of those big counter intuitive moments which you unfortunately failed. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

5) I don't care about the exact timeline on any of that except to say that it was GOOD that you were on BC. If you brought a bastard baby into this, it's good night Gracie!

6) I actually have a suggestion. Talk about stuff. If he seems he wants to stop, stop. If things get heated on either side, drop that topic with the understanding that you will revisit the issue later. If you are getting seriously upset, you can't have a rational discussion so talk about the rules for laying aside a badgering in advance. My wife and I had MANY uncomfortable conversations after my EA but it was like lancing a wound. You sometimes need to cut deeper to get out all the pus.

Here is a question: for the last year before the EA/PA, how many significant conversations had you had with your husband about stuff which didn't involve dictating what your scedhule was going to be? I know I wasn't talking much to my wife. I've changed that and it's changed EVERYTHING.

Baby staggers at this point.

One last thing, which is SO FRIGGING OBVIOUS I can't believe I am typing it. But if you were good at the OBVIOUS we wouldn't be here.

You need to drop the Bon Vivant attitude with any other man. Your door to the office stays open if there is ANY male in there. You are not alone with any man. If at some point you are lucky enough to be at a party or social event, you are superglued to your husbands side PERIOD. Your days of 'lighthearted flirting' are over. The catchy phrases and doubel entendres are done! Dress down at work. You're a teacher. Think 'school marm'.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


I'm a BS, not a WS, so skip this if you wish  .

During her affair, my wife, who is normally a very decent person, lied and lied. I would catch her out, she would change her story. I would catch her out again, she would change it again. Sound familiar? I don't know if you are a decent person, but the rest is awfully reminiscent. The end result for me (and this is 1990) was that I stopped believing anything she said. 

We had four young children, and I stayed in the marriage for them. The very sight of my wife was painful. I would walk in the door from work, see her, and turn around and walk out again. It was horrible.

It was a long time ago, and we are in a good place now (though the effects of the affair remain). But for me, it was a case of my wife committing to the marriage. Committing to do the right thing by me when, frankly, I wasn't being a very good husband, because I'd given up on her, I was only there for the kids. 

Something made Matt fall in love with you. You blew him out of the water with your treachery and deceit, and he will NEVER totally forget that, no matter what. You cannot undo it. 

Commit to what you think is right. If you hope to win him back, commit to remain faithful to him, even if he won't speak to you. And if you hope for good co-parenting, commit to be a person of integrity with him. Don't jerk his chain. 

I don't believe words will do it. You have so devalued the worth of your words. Actions will do it. But it will take years to win his respect, and the odds are you will never again win his heart. Even if he wants to give it, he will struggle to shake the ghosts of what you have done. 

You cannot change who you are. But you can change how you interact with the world.


----------



## Wazza

JCD said:


> 6) I actually have a suggestion. Talk about stuff. If he seems he wants to stop, stop. If things get heated on either side, drop that topic with the understanding that you will revisit the issue later. If you are getting seriously upset, you can't have a rational discussion so talk about the rules for laying aside a badgering in advance. My wife and I had MANY uncomfortable conversations after my EA but it was like lancing a wound. You sometimes need to cut deeper to get out all the pus.
> 
> Here is a question: for the last year before the EA/PA, how many significant conversations had you had with your husband about stuff which didn't involve dictating what your scedhule was going to be? I know I wasn't talking much to my wife. I've changed that and it's changed EVERYTHING.
> 
> Baby staggers at this point.
> 
> One last thing, which is SO FRIGGING OBVIOUS I can't believe I am typing it. But if you were good at the OBVIOUS we wouldn't be here.
> 
> You need to drop the Bon Vivant attitude with any other man. Your door to the office stays open if there is ANY male in there. You are not alone with any man. If at some point you are lucky enough to be at a party or social event, you are superglued to your husbands side PERIOD. Your days of 'lighthearted flirting' are over. The catchy phrases and doubel entendres are done! Dress down at work. You're a teacher. Think 'school marm'.


Gold. Absolute gold. Particularly the talking bit.


----------



## Jonesey

JCD said:


> Um...happy?
> 
> She implied and the Doc stated that she is cutting the electric umblical cord. She would rather focus her non theater time to her son and husband than us.
> 
> I can't fault that but it's likely she won't be posting much at all.


:iagree: Except the part on "husband" That should be replaced
with her self.In fact reconciliation should not even be on her radar
at this point, until she has sorted out her self first. Then and only then she will be able to fully pay attention to repair the damage
caused by all of this.She has not always been this way

She need´s to spend time to find her way back.Figure out, at what point,what made her abandon her values marriage.
And so on.This is not just about the affair.Even before the affair
She continuously chose a life outside her marriage. 7-8 week´s
gone in NY. Student´s at her home over night. Working hour´s 
9.00 to 10-11 in the evening ,coming home basically as a zombie. Affair or no affair.Marriage has been in trouble for a long time.

Its thing´s like this that need´s to be addressed first.
The famous question ,known a the big *WHY*!!!

My advice is to you MrsMathias is

Get you´r self An IC ASAP and work on being YOU again.
First. Thing´s have a funny way to fall in to place.When you have figured out who you are,and what you want..

Good luck


----------



## jnj express

Hey Mrs M-----you continue to state you love/loved your lover

Do you really believe that---can you tell me your love was the true mature love that spouses have, for each other, that developes with years of living life, and experienceing the trials of life, and going thru all that mge brings, which includes problems, and boredom-----------or

Did you really just have hot passion, infatuation, excitement, and the want of something new, and a young body for you to fondle, and spread your legs for

Emotionally what could there have been---do you really think your lover could have dealt with an emergency to lets say your child, or to monthly facing of life's reality, as in paying the bills---and in dealing with family----could he have handled any of the things that really go with reality---------be honest, with all his alleged skill he couldn't even get a decent job---how the he*l, was he gonna take care of you

Be honest---what did you really have with him EMOTIONALLY, if you are telling me it was love---you need to look up the definition of TRUE DEEP ABIDING LOVE


----------



## AnnieAsh

Mrs M...like I said in my post on your deleted thread, obsessing and picking apart your "relationship" with om is going to keep you mired in it. Your husband and child should be your priority NOT useless navel gazing and talking about om. I had to force myself to focus on my husband and not what I wanted to say to om or what he really felt for me. 

AC in her pithy post mentioned me a few times.  I have some tips and suggestions if you would like. Affaircare is a very smart and sweet lady who wants to see you SUCCEED. Re-read her posts, take notes, make lists. 

I hope you can become a better person, despite everything that has happened.


----------



## Will_Kane

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just *keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? * I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


Character is how we act when we think no one is watching. Keep doing the right thing, even if he won't always see it. Make doing the right thing a habit.

You're still close to your last d-day. You've been lying to your husband for four months and you've given him several d-days. It's going to take a while for him to begin to realize there are no more d-days and you truly have re-committed to him. Don't be afraid to express your true feelings of sorrow, remorse, and love to him.

There are no guarantees about re-connecting with your husband, but there is no downside to becoming a better person. A person who recognizes her bad decisions and her weaknesses and works to improve them, who recognizes the wrongs she's done and tries to make them right, eventually will earn back respect and trust. It's not going to happen in the short term.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am really interested in all the different ideas and thoughts you are sharing about love. I have a lot more to think on the subject and try to clarify.
> 
> A few things I want to address, without trying to figure out how to multi-quote...
> 
> 1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now.
> 
> 2. There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.
> 
> 3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.
> 
> 4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true.
> 
> 5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.
> 
> 6. Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


I am not sure how to get through to you. Another thing is you have to stop lying at some point. 

My guess is we still do not have the truth because you said that you went on birth control in June. You said you did not even know you were in EA but had already kissed and had oral sex with OM in May.

You have been in MC since February (?) and IC since July and it did not help at all in what you did. How can you say that this will never happen again? 

Don't you think that any advise given is wasted on you? Expects could not fix you, how can anyone here? How can anyone give you advise that may help you so then you can once again have one of your "what ever they are" and hurt Matt and your son again.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me,


You make yourself aviable, you don't force any conversation. You just tell him you are ready and willing to answer. If he doesn't you stop. As you point out the hugest issue now is respect. For now it seems he's coping his way and seems numb, guarded. It won't be this way forever. Maybe next week he will want to talk about it, to ask you why... who knows. May be you notice him stressed, you ask, to busy, you offer help him, if really sad, you offer your support then and suck whetever venom comes you way (and boy it will come) is he's angry. Ask him whether there's something he'd like you to do you didn't realize it would be good. Try to keep the comunication avenues.

Remorse from infidelity is no different than remorse from whatever other self and others destructive issue you can imagine. You just own and rejects you actions because they were wrong. Then see the damage to others and try to make amends, the way you are allowed, the best way you can. Maybe making amends won't be the way you'd like but you can anyway. 

But surely the best way to make amends is changing whatever there was within that allowed you to make the awful decisions to begin with. What I've been stressing since the very beggining. And this take time and effort. Please, tell your psychologist everything, next time!! I'm crossing my fingers hoping this counselor is a good match for you and make you accountable. Many issues has been adressed in your and Dr's threads. It's possible some are completely off base, maybe others touched your guts. Think about them.

Another thing is start practicing healthy boundaires. With everybody, with your husband, students, coworkers, family, friends...

Just some little detail about you post. You talked about remaining "friends" with OM. I get you are talking about a time you were deep into the affair, don't get me wrong. People here is asking you what love looks like to you. I'm hoping you make the same reflexion about friendship. That's my take, you were a bad friend to OM (and a bad teacher to begin with), he was not your friend either. I'm not asking you to write her but to ask yourself. Picture you son in the future, what kind of friends you want for him. What's a good friend. What kind of things good frirends do and what don't. Friendship is not a feeling either.


ETA, hope you are reading more threads here. Just saw this one
M - what makes them go after married women ?


----------



## Shaggy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> 1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH.


Irrelevant now. There is no future with Matt.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> 2. There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.


At this point your only purpose should be to prevent doing the same in your next relationship with the next guy.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> 3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.


Stop looking for explanations and reasons. They only mask the truth. You did what you did because you chose to do it. It's what you wanted. You did not want your husband or son. It is actually very simple. You may not like the answer because of what is says about you as a person. But it is the truth.


Mrs_Mathias said:


> 4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true.


You can trust your feelings. The problem right now is you are realizing that what your feelings reveal about you isn't very pleasant. You are just now realizing what you are capable of and you realize that it is something very ugly. You don't like you, now that you've been revealed in the light of days/truth.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> 5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.


Sorry, but this reeks of rewriting of history to cover your true motivations.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally *there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM day*s. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.


You can't possible believe this. The search fo the truth, self honesty, remember. Tell it out loud and watch your own reaction.
What did look like Matt days? Did you put the same intensity? Did Matt days had the same significance? Put the same energy? Felt same way about yourself?
It's so obvious you were (are?) so consumed with this that i'm sure Matt was not even in the radar. Not only Matt, the resto of the world.

Tell yourself the truth. As a matter of fact, document the truth, keep a log of the truth.


----------



## pidge70

Acabado said:


> You can't possible believe this. The search fo the truth, self honesty, remember. Tell it out loud and watch your own reaction.
> What did look like Matt days? Did you put the same intensity? Did Matt days had the same significance? Put the same energy? Felt same way about yourself?
> It's so obvious you were (are?) so consumed with this that i'm sure Matt was not even in the radar. Not only Matt, the resto of the world.
> 
> Tell yourself the truth. As a matter of fact, document the truth, keep a log of the truth.


If she were to face the truth, she just might break. I don't see anywhere on this thread, or her deleted other one where anything in her life is as important as she is to herself.


----------



## SoulStorm

> There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.


Interesting. This sounds like another lie.
Did your BH know you went back on birth control at this point?
I think not.
I think you knew that you and OM would be having sexual relations in the near future and you were preparing for that.

Why would you go on birth control because your marriage was rocky without consulting your husband about it?

Sounds like a marriage re-write to justify going on BC, while knowing all the while you were planning on being intimate with Om. And yes..I believe it was all without condoms.

You've lied about everything else, why not this too?
You're right..your words really mean nothing. You can't prove anything to me and you shouldn't have to..so I'll just believe you are lying about the condoms.


----------



## Jonesey

pidge70 said:


> *If she were to face the truth, she just might break.* I don't see anywhere on this thread, or her deleted other one where anything in her life is as important as she is to herself.


I agree. One of the reason i wrote in my post to her.

Reconciliation attempts should not even be on her radar at this point. She need´s help to fix her self first.

before anything..She is emotional not ready yet.And perhaps
might not even be that for a long time..

Question is 
Does DrMatt have the emotional stamina to wait it out? And be able to be the ROCK in order to help her.And deal with ,work, chid, his own emotion´s .Especially After what he had o deal with for a couple of years of basically nothing..This is in my opinion not just about the affair.
It stretches further back then this..Let´s not forget that..Dealing with the affair won't solve it all..Its more to it then just that..


----------



## aug

Shaggy said:


> Stop looking for explanations and reasons. They only mask the truth. You did what you did because you chose to do it. It's what you wanted. You did not want your husband or son. It is actually very simple. You may not like the answer because of what is says about you as a person. But it is the truth.



this. the simplest and most viable reason. I think that if you can accept this, it'll be easier for you to learn about yourself.


----------



## MrMathias

SoulStorm said:


> Interesting. This sounds like another lie.
> Did your BH know you went back on birth control at this point?
> I think not.


I don't want to comment on things in this thread, since it's for her, but we did in fact talk about this in May. It troubled her that I thought she might have an A and didn't want to bring a kid into the mix when things weren't 'wonderful' between us. We both knew a second kid would exacerbate the problem of me doing the lion's share. I knew she was going back on BC. 


SoulStorm said:


> I think you knew that you and OM would be having sexual relations in the near future and you were preparing for that.


Could easily be true. And now I will back out...


----------



## TDSC60

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH.


So you never had any fantasy of a long life with your lover?

This is even sadder than I thought. You trashed your marriage, you destroyed a good and faithful man, and you totally disregarded your child for what? Lust? The overwhelming desire to have sex with a 21 year old student.

I will go against some of the advice given here. Leave your husband alone. You have not loved him for a very long time. He said in his thread that you WERE a wonderful mother early after the birth but as you spent more and more time at work, you barely saw your child and had very little interaction with him.

You were in love with your husband a long time ago but not recently. You chose OM over your own child.

Show him that you now have respect for him but don't try to tell or show him you love him. You can not show what is not there and he would not believe it anyway.


----------



## Tony55

_"So, let me ask you this simple question, and maybe this has been asked already, I don't know, why are you not with your lover right now? Why have you not run off with him? Don't give me the reason you tell your husband, or the one you give yourself, give me the real reason. If I talked to your lover, and asked him that question, what would he tell me?

If you choose to answer my question, please keep it concise, it shouldn't require a long explanation. 

I am no longer with my lover because ___________________."​_


Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now


*Unacceptable answer*

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not, but you need to face the truth, I'll help you out, we'll break it down into steps:

Did he dump you? Yes or no.
If so, when?
Did you dump him? Yes or no.
If so, when?

We won't even ask why yet, forget about the why of the break up, just focus on those questions above.

If I was your husband, I couldn't go any further with anything whatsoever until I had the absolute answers to those questions, not the way *YOU WANT* to answer them, *I would need the truth*, and if you didn't answer those specific, simple questions, 100% honestly, right now, I would have nothing more to say to you about anything, ever again. I would end the marriage right now.

T


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> January/February 2012 – EA began
> May 20 – PA begins w/kiss
> May 29 – PA escalates with oral sex in office
> May 31 – Left for NYC, online communications continue





Mrs_Mathias said:


> I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began.





jim123 said:


> I am not sure how to get through to you. Another thing is you have to stop lying at some point.
> 
> My guess is we still do not have the truth because you said that you went on birth control in June. You said you did not even know you were in EA but had already kissed and had oral sex with OM in May.
> 
> You have been in MC since February (?) and IC since July and it did not help at all in what you did. How can you say that this will never happen again?


OK, trying to make sense of this one.

I guess I can reconcile it as:

Was in an EA but didn't realise (or admit).
Decided to start on the pill once the PA began, or shortly before, depending on the length of your cycle.
She does admit that she started on the pill after the PA began.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Mrs_Mathias: Only you know what is in your heart, and only the good Dr. can decide if you are worth the risk. It will hurt as much to take you back as it will to let you go. He has alread worked through much of the pain and you would ask him to start over again. Are you worth it? Only Dr Mathias knows if he has enough left to try again.


----------



## jim123

Wazza said:


> OK, trying to make sense of this one.
> 
> I guess I can reconcile it as:
> 
> Was in an EA but didn't realise (or admit).
> Decided to start on the pill once the PA began, or shortly before, depending on the length of your cycle.
> She does admit that she started on the pill after the PA began.


Thanks, it is hard to keep this straight with all the comments. 

It is hard to swallow that she all of a sudden goes on the pill as this starts and they are not related. Given the problems in the marriage were caused by her feeling for the OM, it is a little hard to trust her.

I did find the MC was later. Forgot that she gave OM a BJ then later that day sent him the first NC note.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> Thanks, it is hard to keep this straight with all the comments.
> 
> It is hard to swallow that she all of a sudden goes on the pill as this starts and they are not related. Given the problems in the marriage were caused by her feeling for the OM, it is a little hard to trust her.
> 
> I did find the MC was later. Forgot that she gave OM a BJ then later that day sent him the first NC note.


It is very confusing. The first time I read those quotes I thought she had lied more than you thought. Saying it was before the EA when she admitted the EA had started months earlier. Read it a couple more times and decided it was a credible story that she could be in an EA and not realise.


----------



## Jonesey

Wazza said:


> It is very confusing. The first time I read those quotes I thought she had lied more than you thought. Saying it was before the EA when she admitted the EA had started months earlier. Read it a couple more times and decided it was a credible story that she could be in an EA and not realise.


There is a reason I'm have been saying 
The affair is not the only problem they have. She has probably
been in a EA with OM for longer then she would and will admit.

Remember this.Not many of us had ever heard about EA before.
I never knew it even existed.Always thought it had to be sex involved


----------



## JCD

Jonesey said:


> There is a reason I'm have been saying
> The affair is not the only problem they have. She has probably
> been in a EA with OM for longer then she would and will admit.
> 
> Remember this.Not many of us had ever heard about EA before.
> I never knew it even existed.Always thought it had to be sex involved


Agreed. There is no hard and fast line which divides friendship/mentor relationship with EA. Does caring about the future of a student mean she is in an EA? Of course not. Does giving extra time mean she is in an EA? If so, how much time? How much effort is 'proper' and how much is 'EA'?

I say this not to defend her, but because there is a lot of gray and squishy in an EA. With a PA it's black and white. That first kiss. That first grope session near the closet of the Student Union. The first time you saw or exposed the naughty bits.

Things aren't quite that clear with an EA so it's entirely possible she was in one without knowing she was.

My NEW definition of an EA is very simple: The first time your spouse starts to talk to you about boundaries/lost time/impropiety, you are in an EA because the spouse feels the distance and is making comment about it. It can happen earlier, but THAT comment by the spouse makes it clear that you're on a frozen lake and the ice is cracking.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am really interested in all the different ideas and thoughts you are sharing about love. I have a lot more to think on the subject and try to clarify.
> 
> A few things I want to address, without trying to figure out how to multi-quote...
> 
> 1. I am no longer with my lover because ___________________.
> I am no longer with my lover because I have never been able to picture a future with him, not like with my BH. And it's not a future like having a house, car, vacations... it's being buried next to him, it's sitting by his side at our son's wedding, it's snuggling into one of his old t-shirts to sleep. Romanticism? Maybe.... I can't even tell right now.
> 
> 2. There is a misunderstanding somehow that I am not seeking psychological help. I am. I have been seeing (and lying) to a therapist since July. While I hid details of the continued affair, I have legitimately been talking about other issues, and I have an appointment this Friday. I hope now that everything is out, I can make more progress with that.
> 
> 3. All the "goodbyes" initiated were always by me. Each time I really thought we could be done, but we'd been so "important" to each other that how could we not be "friends" etc. etc. It was so stupid. This whole thing has been so stupid. It's really hard for me to look at WTF I was thinking because it's so muddled together with trying to get out and then falling back in and literally there would be days that were Matt days vs. OM days. IDK if it was like a switch or how to describe it - maybe some days I just had more resolve than others.
> 
> 4. I definitely feel like my WTF moment happened on Wednesday, when Matt asked me a simple question and I lied before I could even stop my mouth. The part of my brain that doesn't want to completely self-destruct was so horrified and just too slow to overcome the habit of lying in that moment. I don't even know how to begin to describe my thoughts/feelings since then. And it's worse because I feel like I can't trust any of my feelings or thoughts to be accurate/true.
> 
> 5. There's a lot of discussion on my BH's thread about condoms and whether I went on the pill for OM. My words are worthless, but I will simply say this: I pursued the prescription before OM and I had ever begun PA and before I was aware there was an EA. BH and I had been trying for another baby for several months without luck, and I knew our relationship had been rocky. He asked about my involvement with OM and I was surprised and concerned that he felt that way. As stupid, unbelievable, or fake as it may sound, I had no idea I was in an EA. And I couldn't fathom bringing a baby into a less than "happy" marriage. I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse? I could not begin taking the pill until after I arrived in NYC (because you have to wait for your next period) - which was after the PA began. For many, many years in my life, the idea of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible scenario I could imagine. So much so that when BH and i finally started "not preventing" and then finally got pregnant, I was horribly torn on how to feel about it - how can you go from thinking something would be the worst thing ever to actually wanting it? So, yes, OM and I used condoms AND the pill. I don't trust either to be sufficient.
> 
> 6. Back to my actions. I came home today and just tried to talk with BH about anything in my head, sharing emotional transparency and thoughts with him while our son napped. I threw away the dress/underwear that I know I wore with OM, and some extra that I don't know if I did, but I purchased them over the summer, so they are associated with this. Someone on this thread said to just keep showing accountability/transparency/etc. even if BH says he doesn't want it. I am trying to do that, but how then, can I show him I respect him at the same time and am not trying to control this? I guess I feel like we need to keep communicating about the affair, even if he says it doesn't matter and he's just done with me, because I don't want unresolved questions/emotions to taint our parenting relationship over the next 20 years. Can anyone speak to how they handled being a remorseful wayward with a betrayed that thought they were just done? The outcome of your situation (R or D) is interesting to me, but I'm not looking for anything specific.


I want to thank you for your efforts here, the reactions are probably harsh and heavy on you, but I think your are doing the best you can. This post above shows you working on your thoughts and feelings. That is a big thing.

I hope you can endure the misery and come out of this as a better person. I think you are on the right way. 

You focus should maybe not be on your marriage, but on yourself right now. When you feel better, are in a better place, you can be helping to deal better with the whole situation. If things end in a divorce, then maybe at least the lessons learned will help you in the future.

Best wishes with this,


----------



## Decorum

Tony55 said:


> _"___________________."​_
> 
> *Unacceptable answer*
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not, but you need to face the truth, I'll help you out, we'll break it down into steps:
> 
> Did he dump you? Yes or no.
> If so, when?
> Did you dump him? Yes or no.
> If so, when?
> 
> 
> T




This is an honesty test for you.

Not answering it hurts you more than either answer would.
Its a shame I have to tell you this.


Remember getting help requires some trust in others and honesty.

Show us you are commited to honesty in recovery!


----------



## Doc Who

You have a tough road ahead of you. If you are to really heal yourself, you will have to face this. No more lying. No more justifying. No more "OM/I were so special" bull****. And face it you must because your son will need a healthy mother. Right now, you are anything but healthy...

Do Matt and yourself a favor, focus on you. Get to a place where you will not resent him for what he is to do - and make no mistake about it - he is divorcing you from his life to the fullest extent he can. Do not cling to false outcomes your mind is creating, such as thinking you can win him back by "acting" remorseful or saying the right thing. He knows you are very unsafe. You are emotionally unstable, not capable of real commitment, and you really do not care or respect him. So please focus on you, not him, and let him move on.

The two best things you can do for your long term mental health are focusing on dealing with your myriad of issues and peacefully and respectfully (as you can) letting him go. He has a long road ahead of horrific pain. He does not need another false set of promises and fake love from you. He needs real love and the most authentic way you can love him is by letting him be free of the betrayal, the drama, the repeated deceptions, the spiteful disrespect, and the mental abuse that you have perpetrated.

You will hurt. But, in the long run, you will be able to look back and be proud of that one thing in this sea of misery that you were able to do for him, and by proxy, your son.

Strength to you in your journey. It will suck. But you can come out of this a better person.


----------



## Wazza

Doc Who said:


> Do Matt and yourself a favor, focus on you. Get to a place where you will not resent him for what he is to do - and make no mistake about it - he is divorcing you from his life to the fullest extent he can. Do not cling to false outcomes your mind is creating, such as thinking you can win him back by "acting" remorseful or saying the right thing. He knows you are very unsafe. You are emotionally unstable, not capable of real commitment, and you really do not care or respect him. So please focus on you, not him, and let him move on.


Divorce - probably true. Certainly his stated intention. But DrM has not been through the emotions roller caster yet. I would not pronounce his actions as set in stone until he has.

But the bit about not acting, of currently being very unsafe, spot on. Unless you have learned from this and make real changes, you wil blow any chance you are given by repeating the pattern.

He has written about the pain of you knowing his previous betrayal and still doing this to him. That is going to be very hard for him to overcome.

I do have the feeling you are looking for a form of words that will make it all be ok again, and maybe therefore you do not appreciate the depth of what you have done.


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> This is an honesty test for you.
> 
> Not answering it hurts you more than either answer would.
> Its a shame I have to tell you this.
> 
> 
> Remember getting help requires some trust in others and honesty.
> 
> Show us you are commited to honesty in recovery!


I agree about the importance but these questions were posed 15 hours ago and she is making the Internet not a priority. Give her time.


----------



## In_The_Wind

Wazza said:


> I agree about the importance but these questions were posed 15 hours ago and she is making the Internet not a priority. Give her time.


I believe the good Doc M said she is unplugged for the time being


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tony55 said:


> _"
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not, but you need to face the truth, I'll help you out, we'll break it down into steps:
> 
> Did he dump you? Yes or no. No
> If so, when? Not applicable
> Did you dump him? Yes or no. I guess so??? It's hard for me to answer accurately. I initiated the conversation about needing to end the PA, about not being able to continue as we were. He agreed. So in my head it seems mutual, IDK. However we were going to remain "just friends" which I see more clearly now as just a continuation of the EA.
> If so, when? November 3
> 
> We won't even ask why yet, forget about the why of the break up, just focus on those questions above.
> 
> If I was your husband, I couldn't go any further with anything whatsoever until I had the absolute answers to those questions, not the way *YOU WANT* to answer them, *I would need the truth*, and if you didn't answer those specific, simple questions, 100% honestly, right now, I would have nothing more to say to you about anything, ever again. I would end the marriage right now.
> 
> T​_


_

I am continuing reading the threads here when I can, but I don't want to replace one online outlet (FB) with another one (TAM) instead of taking time to really think for myself and be present in my life now. I think there are many many good comments, thoughts, and resources here, and I am trying to use them, but I am not spending my hours online as I did before. The guidance and questions here are really good for me to think about, and I need more time to think before I can really know or respond to many things except basic questions, if that makes any sense.

Matt and I have an appointment with the attorney today at 1 PM. Being back at work and trying not to focus on the computer today is difficult (as the main environment/vehicle for the EA), but I have a big incentive not to... I have neglected a lot of office work and I am not willing to take it home at night since my time with my son is so limited. I also do not have internet at my new residence, nor reliable cell phone signal for data service. So it is imperative that my hours at work be spent working to enable me to navigate the remainder of the semester and spend time with my family. I am not avoiding this environment or the hard issues I have to face right now. But my time will be spent trying to apply that information to my self-improvement, and I will respond as I can.​_


----------



## Decorum

Fyi Wazza,
The question was first asked on 11/23 by aug 
But no harm no foul 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Decorum said:


> Fyi Wazza,
> The question was first asked on 11/23 by aug
> But no harm no foul
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know that someone else asked that question and I answered it previously. But it is perhaps buried in these posts or in my old thread, which has been restored, BTW.


----------



## Ovid

The truth of the matter is there is now way to undo the damage or to make ammends. What you have to offer is a new better wife, and actually be credible. It's easier said than done. If you can do it, then maybe... If and only if your H is willing to try. You will be asking more than you know.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

your getting better at this, but your still neglecting basic emotional intelligence. your range is just too broad.


----------



## aug

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know that someone else asked that question and I answered it previously. But it is perhaps buried in these posts or in my old thread, which has been restored, BTW.



No, didnt see the answer at all in this or the restored thread.

How about a yes or no? We know the young man was trying to get back together with his exgf. We know you were upset. 

Did the young man dump you?


----------



## Wazza

aug said:


> No, didnt see the answer at all in this or the restored thread.
> 
> How about a yes or no? We know the young man was trying to get back together with his exgf. We know you were upset.
> 
> Did the young man dump you?


She answered. It hasn't yet been properly ended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I have a question about how you thought in the beginning of the affair you thought you could get away without losing your family and your job. I don't see how a 30 something, woman teacher, could possibly believe she could have relations even one time, with a male student and it would not get out. Really, do you not know anything at all about how young men think/operate? I would be willing to bet that within a day several of his male friends knew what the two of you did. Within a week, almost all of his friends knew. Many of those male friends told their girlfriends. Why, because he was bragging about another notch on his bedpost. Its what young guys do. Are there any guys out there who doubt this? On top of that you used his friends place.



But that's just me. I actually hope you can save your family. Have you read the wayward spouse instructions? I think there is a link in the newbies thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


----------



## Tony55

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *Did you dump him? Yes or no.*
> 
> "I guess so??? It's hard for me to answer accurately. I initiated the conversation about needing to end the PA, about not being able to continue as we were. He agreed. So in my head it seems mutual, IDK. However we were going to remain "just friends" which I see more clearly now as just a continuation of the EA."


Well, there it is, we know the truth about where your heart is; no further questions.

It's over.

T


----------



## FryFish

> At this point you both need to reconsider your philosophy and try prayer. But that's just me.


lol...
as to the rest of the post this is from I am concerned that the poster weighed in without reading all of the thread(s)... CJ was no longer a student when the affair occurred and in fact was the WW's assistant. And even that is kinda moot as this wasnt something that happened in highschool...


----------



## rrrbbbttt

What would you define your moral boundaries now, from your husbands thread you were the OW for a married man when you were younger prior to your marriage.

Now you have had an affair while being married to your husband and having a child at home. In fact you brought the other man into your home while your husband and child were there.

You have made some statements that you want to "Save" your marriage. Why?

You say people can change but are you willing to put in the work and do things that are not consistent with your moral character? 

Or, are you putting on the theater because that is what most people expect you to do at this time and this change is only temporary?

Sorry, but from the reading of the three threads I don't know if you are truly invested in making the necessary changes because it seems to be against your character.

If you are really going to change, how do you purpose that you are going to do this; how are you going to make restitution to your husband and child and are you going to give up the career you have chosen and the amount of time you invest in students which feed your ego, which is toxic to your marriage and feeds your ego to make these bad decisions?


----------



## Wazza

Tony55 said:


> Well, there it is, we know the truth about where your heart is; no further questions.
> 
> It's over.
> 
> T


To be fair again, there is something of a sh1tstorm breaking around her right now. At least she has been honest here, it seems. 

Certainly not a loose end I would leave if I had any hope of reconciliation though.


----------



## FryFish

I missed something... when did she sleep with her Ex?


----------



## karole

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am continuing reading the threads here when I can, but I don't want to replace one online outlet (FB) with another one (TAM) instead of taking time to really think for myself and be present in my life now. I think there are many many good comments, thoughts, and resources here, and I am trying to use them, but I am not spending my hours online as I did before. The guidance and questions here are really good for me to think about, and I need more time to think before I can really know or respond to many things except basic questions, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Matt and I have an appointment with the attorney today at 1 PM. Being back at work and trying not to focus on the computer today is difficult (as the main environment/vehicle for the EA), but I have a big incentive not to... I have neglected a lot of office work and I am not willing to take it home at night since my time with my son is so limited. I also do not have internet at my new residence, nor reliable cell phone signal for data service. So it is imperative that my hours at work be spent working to enable me to navigate the remainder of the semester and spend time with my family. I am not avoiding this environment or the hard issues I have to face right now. But my time will be spent trying to apply that information to my self-improvement, and I will respond as I can.


When you refer to your OM as your lover in addition that your lack of closure, you undo all the other things you say.

Please be honest with yourself before you attempt to save your marriage. It is bad enough to do it once but doing it twice will be total evil.

You are nor have you been ready for R. You have demons to face before you are ready to make decisions.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I have NEVER slept with anyone beside OM while I have been married. My XBF wrote to me after being in touch with my BH recently... They have remained friends over the years. I have had a total of 5 sexual partners in my life. I have behaved selfishly, cruelly, and thoughtlessly, but I don't believe I am a wh0re/slvt. My husband is an excellent lover, and my affair had nothing to do with his sexual skills. 

It is ENDED with OM. A NC letter has been written, and I have maintained that since last Sunday. We are very early in this process, but I already know it feels substantially different to me than in July. I'm sure a large part of that is due to finally being truthful with Matt about the situation. I know it is too early for us to have any real idea about R, but I want to be clear that I DON'T want a divorce. I have not treated my husband with love and respect. But I DO love him, and am so sad that it took such a terrible terrible series of choices by me to remember that and feel it deep inside. I know he still loves me. I know that ultimately may not matter. I know that I want to do ANYTHING to heal him from the pain I caused, including divorce.

I was the OW in a brief fling when I was 20. I did not know it/view it as such. I was told they had been separated for some time and were close to finishing the divorce. I have no clue what that says about my moral fiber, I'm sure many people have different views on the subject. I had been in a long term relationship, and then most recently in a sexual relationship with Matt, but we were not ready for full commitment at that time. Many of my college friends seemed to sleep around with no real thoughts or concerns about it, and I wondered what that was like. I took that man at his word, and we had approximately 6 sexual encounters over 4 or so weeks before I ended it. 

I want to save my marriage because I believe Matt and I have a true, abiding love for each other. I believe that we have many experiences we would like to share in the future. I believe that I have been a good wife in the past and my decisions of the last six months do not reflect the person I was, and am still capable of being. I have self-esteem issues. I have identity issues, I have authority issues. I have fantasy issues. I have to work on all these things. I know there is a lot on my plate. I am working on me, but I won't neglect my husband another minute. However it is that I can best be there for him - co-parent, wife, and hopefully friend and lover.

I know many couples don't survive this. I know some do. I have faith in Matt and I to find the right path, whatever that may be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dunce

mrs mathias, Im interested in where you loyalities now lay. if yourhus attacked your ex lover and you were wittness to it would you llie to protect your husband now and claim ex lover attacked hus even if it it meant ex lover would go to jail? in short would you hurt ex lover for your husbands sake?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

dunce said:


> mrs mathias, Im interested in where you loyalities now lay. if yourhus attacked your ex lover and you were wittness to it would you llie to protect your husband now and claim ex lover attacked hus even if it it meant ex lover would go to jail? in short would you hurt ex lover for your husbands sake?


I have zero loyalty to OM. However, I find your scenario iffy. I think as someone who truly loves my husband I would attempt to prevent him from putting himself in harm's way like that (legal). But yes, hypothetically, I would lie to protect Matt over the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have NEVER slept with anyone beside OM while I have been married. My XBF wrote to me after being in touch with my BH recently... They have remained friends over the years. I have had a total of 5 sexual partners in my life. I have behaved selfishly, cruelly, and thoughtlessly, but I don't believe I am a wh0re/slvt. My husband is an excellent lover, and my affair had nothing to do with his sexual skills.
> 
> It is ENDED with OM. A NC letter has been written, and I have maintained that since last Sunday. We are very early in this process, but I already know it feels substantially different to me than in July. I'm sure a large part of that is due to finally being truthful with Matt about the situation. I know it is too early for us to have any real idea about R, but I want to be clear that I DON'T want a divorce. I have not treated my husband with love and respect. But I DO love him, and am so sad that it took such a terrible terrible series of choices by me to remember that and feel it deep inside. I know he still loves me. I know that ultimately may not matter. I know that I want to do ANYTHING to heal him from the pain I caused, including divorce.
> 
> I was the OW in a brief fling when I was 20. I did not know it/view it as such. I was told they had been separated for some time and were close to finishing the divorce. I have no clue what that says about my moral fiber, I'm sure many people have different views on the subject. I had been in a long term relationship, and then most recently in a sexual relationship with Matt, but we were not ready for full commitment at that time. Many of my college friends seemed to sleep around with no real thoughts or concerns about it, and I wondered what that was like. I took that man at his word, and we had approximately 6 sexual encounters over 4 or so weeks before I ended it.
> 
> I want to save my marriage because I believe Matt and I have a true, abiding love for each other. I believe that we have many experiences we would like to share in the future. I believe that I have been a good wife in the past and my decisions of the last six months do not reflect the person I was, and am still capable of being. I have self-esteem issues. I have identity issues, I have authority issues. I have fantasy issues. I have to work on all these things. I know there is a lot on my plate. I am working on me, but I won't neglect my husband another minute. However it is that I can best be there for him - co-parent, wife, and hopefully friend and lover.
> 
> I know many couples don't survive this. I know some do. I have faith in Matt and I to find the right path, whatever that may be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M

I truly hope the fog is lifting. And that the visit to the lawyers office really sunk in and has hit you over the head.

I would like to make another suggestion.

Stop having college aged friends.

1.You are too old for them. Hang out with others your own age.
2.You are too immature to be friends with them.
3.You do not have the proper boundaries in place with them
4.You have abused your position of authority in front of them.
5.It is disrespectful to Matt to keep them.
6.You have repeatedly screwed one of them!

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

HM64


----------



## Kasler

^ Happyman, how did you miss that 6 months comment?

You're usually on point. 

Mrs matt, you've not been a good wife for much more than 6 months, its been stated very much and you're continuing to ignore it?

Theres been many problems before your affair and they'll need to be dealt with.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

happyman64 said:


> Mrs M
> 
> I truly hope the fog is lifting. And that the visit to the lawyers office really sunk in and has hit you over the head.
> 
> I would like to make another suggestion.
> 
> Stop having college aged friends.
> 
> 1.You are too old for them. Hang out with others your own age.
> 2.You are too immature to be friends with them.
> 3.You do not have the proper boundaries in place with them
> 4.You have abused your position of authority in front of them.
> 5.It is disrespectful to Matt to keep them.
> 6.You have repeatedly screwed one of them!
> 
> I hope you understand where I am coming from.
> 
> HM64


Ha, I think you misunderstand my college friends in the thread you quoted were friends when I was in college 15 years ago, not students/former students now.

I have already minimized my relationship with these current students over the course of the semester. Mast is hoping to move at the end of the contract year, and I hope to move in the same direction for shared custody. I think an environment change, particularly to a larger area, would alleviate a lot of those relationships.


----------



## happyman64

Kasler

She has to start somewhere.

She needs to cut every bad person out of her life.

6 months? Hell, she has been taking advantage of her Husband for a lot longer than 6 months Kasler.


As Pidge said earlier. Mrs M is very selfish. Everything has been about her.

Her career.
Her theater friends.
Her OM.
Her Affair.
Her lifestyle. 
Her lies.

They have been all about her up until these past few days.........


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ha, I think you misunderstand my college friends in the thread you quoted were friends when I was in college 15 years ago, not students/former students now.
> 
> I have already minimized my relationship with these current students over the course of the semester. Mast is hoping to move at the end of the contract year, and I hope to move in the same direction for shared custody. I think an environment change, particularly to a larger area, would alleviate a lot of those relationships.


I get it. Thank you for the clarity. But in my post I do mean your students that knew about the affair.

And I think a move would be good for all of you.


----------



## shazam

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have NEVER slept with anyone beside OM while I have been married. My XBF wrote to me after being in touch with my BH recently... They have remained friends over the years. I have had a total of 5 sexual partners in my life. I have behaved selfishly, cruelly, and thoughtlessly, but I don't believe I am a wh0re/slvt. My husband is an excellent lover, and my affair had nothing to do with his sexual skills.
> 
> It is ENDED with OM. A NC letter has been written, and I have maintained that since last Sunday. We are very early in this process, but I already know it feels substantially different to me than in July. I'm sure a large part of that is due to finally being truthful with Matt about the situation. I know it is too early for us to have any real idea about R, but I want to be clear that I DON'T want a divorce. I have not treated my husband with love and respect. But I DO love him, and am so sad that it took such a terrible terrible series of choices by me to remember that and feel it deep inside. I know he still loves me. I know that ultimately may not matter. I know that I want to do ANYTHING to heal him from the pain I caused, including divorce.
> 
> I was the OW in a brief fling when I was 20. I did not know it/view it as such. I was told they had been separated for some time and were close to finishing the divorce. I have no clue what that says about my moral fiber, I'm sure many people have different views on the subject. I had been in a long term relationship, and then most recently in a sexual relationship with Matt, but we were not ready for full commitment at that time. Many of my college friends seemed to sleep around with no real thoughts or concerns about it, and I wondered what that was like. I took that man at his word, and we had approximately 6 sexual encounters over 4 or so weeks before I ended it.
> 
> I want to save my marriage because I believe Matt and I have a true, abiding love for each other. I believe that we have many experiences we would like to share in the future. I believe that I have been a good wife in the past and my decisions of the last six months do not reflect the person I was, and am still capable of being. I have self-esteem issues. I have identity issues, I have authority issues. I have fantasy issues. I have to work on all these things. I know there is a lot on my plate. I am working on me, but I won't neglect my husband another minute. However it is that I can best be there for him - co-parent, wife, and hopefully friend and lover.
> 
> I know many couples don't survive this. I know some do. I have faith in Matt and I to find the right path, whatever that may be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At this point words are going to mean squat because you lied so much. I would recommend a lie detector test and a paternity test, for the sole reason that it will help build some trust again. You're already giving him passwords etc... The only thing you can worry about is whether or not it is too late.


----------



## Shaggy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have self-esteem issues. I have identity issues, I have authority issues. I have fantasy issues. I have to work on all these things. I know there is a lot on my plate. I am working on me, but I won't neglect my husband another minute. However it is that I can best be there for him - co-parent, wife, and hopefully friend and lover.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to add two things to your list, and I say this not to attack, but to highlight two huge things you must deal with:

You have Integrity issues and you have Empathy issues.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Was the NC letter handwritten , signed by you and sent by your husband? If not claims by yourself to want to save your marriage are of no value.

Have you sent a letter of apology to your parents , your husbands parents and a letter to the OM's parents exposing him. Why would you do all this? to show by your actions your are prepared to change , by telling his parents they then know their little boy is a predator and quite willing to wreck another persons marriage. 

Your actions is what evidences your ability to change. It is not for you to pick and chose what you do and don't do, the advice given is from the experience of countless BS and professionals who deal with adultery on a regular basis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tony55

Wazza said:


> To be fair again, there is something of a sh1tstorm breaking around her right now. At least she has been honest here, it seems.
> 
> Certainly not a loose end I would leave if I had any hope of reconciliation though.


Ok, personally, if she was my wife, I wouldn't need to go any further with her after her inability to clearly articulate to the OM that she would never see him again. 

But, since I'm not her husband, and she at least answered the question of whether or not she dumped him, I'll ask my next intended question. 

Mrs. Mathias, why did your former lover move? And when was the decision to move made?

Just give a real clear, simple, answer. No embellishing, no assumptions, when and why did he decide to move?

T


----------



## JCD

jim123 said:


> *When you refer to your OM as your lover in addition that your lack of closure, you undo all the other things you say.*
> Please be honest with yourself before you attempt to save your marriage. It is bad enough to do it once but doing it twice will be total evil.
> 
> You are nor have you been ready for R. You have demons to face before you are ready to make decisions.





Tony55 said:


> Ok, personally, if she was my wife, *I wouldn't need to go any further with her after her inability to clearly articulate to the OM that she would never see him again. *
> But, since I'm not her husband, and she at least answered the question of whether or not she dumped him, I'll ask my next intended question.
> 
> Mrs. Mathias, why did your former lover move? And when was the decision to move made?
> 
> Just give a real clear, simple, answer. No embellishing, no assumptions, when and why did he decide to move?
> 
> T


Tony and Jim.

You are both no nonsense guys and I agree with you quite a bit normally. However in this instance, since I assume you are both BS', you don't understand the...depressurization it takes to get the drug out of her system.

Please note that this is not an excuse for her to NOT MAKE PROGRESS.

Calling him her lover or being diffident in articulation is probably not as damning as you think. First, she was still emotionally cleaving to him up to two weeks ago. It took me a month to put aside a friend I didn't boink.

It's only now, 10 months later that I am understanding that my friends comments, insinuations etc were all a bit suspect. She barely has any distance.

And while she is an educated woman, language is 'squishy' enough that even a change of phrasing can cause the reader to imply things she never met. Did she mean 'ex lover'? Was she Freudian and did she mean CURRENT lover? No idea on my end and I wonder how much her mind actually knows at this point.

But this is what I see: She's written a NC letter. Hand written, typed, reed pressed on a mud brick in Sumerian Cunieform. I don't care.

She has, supposedly, cut her extracurricular activities to the bone because she has no faith that she will see her son in anywhere near meaningful enough times.

She is giving up custody OF HER SON! Yeah...if she is the most selfish b!tch in the world, big deal, right? That is not how she strikes me. But I'm a fool at times. If nothing else, her reputation with the grandpartent for leaving her kid will go straight down the toilet. What is she going to do, divorce her MOM?

So...there are some painful things she SEEMS to be doing.

And while the 'smart set' might think divorce is no big deal or any sign of personal failure, the unwashed masses (such as myself) knows better. She failed horribly. Forget the Scarlet A; the big red F would be painful enough for me.

I will double check with the doctor. If it's true, that is a small start.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

"Moving to a larger area will alleviate a lot of those relationships?" 

Unless you change those relationships move with you.


----------



## dogman

Kasler said:


> ^ Happyman, how did you miss that 6 months comment?
> 
> You're usually on point.
> 
> Mrs matt, you've not been a good wife for much more than 6 months, its been stated very much and you're continuing to ignore it?
> 
> Theres been many problems before your affair and they'll need to be dealt with.


This statement of 6 months by MrsMathias bothers me a lot. According to her timeline the bad decisions started 11 or 12 months ago. In reality she was most likely crushing on this guy even before that. She has an addmitted fantasy issue. She was most likely fantasizing before the EA started.

MrsMathias you need to take FULL responsibility for the WHOLE thing. Let's call it a year of bad decisions that MAYBE stopped last week.

But on a good note, you're on the right path. And trust me you will make mistakes and learn everything you should not do and say. Get ready, humble time is coming.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I don't think I called OM my "lover", and I certainly don't think of him that way. I was answering a fill-in-the blank question from a previous post, using the words provided to me.

OM and I had talked about him moving before the PA even began in May. The plan for him was to go back to his hometown sometime before spring semester and potentially go back to school. The date of his moving went through several revisions, with the final decision being made in mid-October. I believe he left sometime between November 13-15.

Again a synopsis:
1. Handwritten NC letter to OM
2. Handwritten NC letters to his parents.
3. Handwritten NC to the toxic friends who enabled the affair.
4. Quit my summer job in NYC (although their response is they want me to think about it until after the holidays)
5. Minimized my current school/rehearsal schedule as best as possible to go home to my son at night.
6. Waking at dawn to drive home to be there for my son in the morning when he gets up, as I am living elsewhere at Matt's request.

All letters were given to Matt to address and mail. I saw my parents last weekend, and called Matt's mom on the Sunday previous, but will sit down and write to them today. I will also write to his dad. 

Already discussed arranging a paternity test with my doctor, and I have begun researching where to get a polygraph. I need to wait until I get my end of semester bonus check to afford either of those.

My mistreatment of Matt definitely extends prior to the last six months, with those being the most heinous. Most of our issues stem from my self-centered ness and work schedule. I think the actions needed for R are the same things that he needed before, my time, my focus, my love, and to make him and his needs my center.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I have been using 6 months as a basis because I did not know I was in an emotional affair prior to that until recently. I wasn't making conscious choices to betray Matt like I did starting in May. But I will own up to my actions, so for the past year, I have been a more sh1tty wife than the average for me.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have been using 6 months as a basis because I did not know I was in an emotional affair prior to that until recently. I wasn't making conscious choices to betray Matt like I did starting in May. But I will own up to my actions, so for the past year, I have been a more sh1tty wife than the average for me.


Did not know I was in an emotional affair; 

Did not know the man was still married when I was the OW. 

Husband first post stated how you were not that involved in the House work and most of it was left up to him, you were more vested in your students.

You state you are a college teacher but you sure seem to be in a FOG.


What do you consider AVERAGE?

By my scale you are way below AVERAGE and you have a lot of HEAVY LIFTING to do to even get to a D.


----------



## Wazza

dogman said:


> This statement of 6 months by MrsMathias bothers me a lot. According to her timeline the bad decisions started 11 or 12 months ago. In reality she was most likely crushing on this guy even before that. She has an addmitted fantasy issue. She was most likely fantasizing before the EA started.
> 
> MrsMathias you need to take FULL responsibility for the WHOLE thing. Let's call it a year of bad decisions that MAYBE stopped last week.
> 
> But on a good note, you're on the right path. And trust me you will make mistakes and learn everything you should not do and say. Get ready, humble time is coming.


The sex started six months ago. It's an understandable number. If you really want to dig the EA probably was 11 months ago, but they were having other issues we don't know much about.

Mrs M, you have no idea how much you have hurt Matt. I have lost a parent and it didn't hurt like my wife's affair. Lots of betrayed spouses here are giving you a very hard time, and at one point you made some comment about them releasing their pain on you. I forget the exact words.

But here's the thing......that pain they are releasing is EXACTLY the pain you gave Matt. This is what you did to him. 

If he takes you back, you bloody well better appreciate what that costs him inside. Because the fact is, though I agree he still loves you, love isn't enough.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> 4. Quit my summer job in NYC (although their response is they want me to think about it until after the holidays)


And what, pray tell, are you thinking? 



> My mistreatment of Matt definitely extends prior to the last six months, with those being the most heinous. Most of our issues stem from my self-centered ness and work schedule. I think the actions needed for R are the same things that he needed before, my time, my focus, my love, and to make him and his needs my center.


I am not rubbing salt into your wounds, but you can only do this if he allows it.

If he does continue to go through with the divorce, are you likely to go to the Summer Workshop anyway?


----------



## dogman

Wazza said:


> The sex started six months ago. It's an understandable number. If you really want to dig the EA probably was 11 months ago, but they were having other issues we don't know much about.
> 
> Mrs M, you have no idea how much you have hurt Matt. I have lost a parent and it didn't hurt like my wife's affair. Lots of betrayed spouses here are giving you a very hard time, and at one point you made some comment about them releasing their pain on you. I forget the exact words.
> 
> But here's the thing......that pain they are releasing is EXACTLY the pain you gave Matt. This is what you did to him.
> 
> If he takes you back, you bloody well better appreciate what that costs him inside. Because the fact is, though I agree he still loves you, love isn't enough.



As usual I agree with you Wazza. But...

The thing is she said she started making bad decisions 6 months ago.

She needs to realize that if you allow yourself to go so far as long as its not full blown sex, you will end up in a situation that take Herculean strength to stop the momentum.

Letting yourself drift into even light EAs is a always a bad decision. For the OP they started when she started to indulge attraction for a student. Long before the PA started.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

JCD said:


> And what, pray tell, are you thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> I am not rubbing salt into your wounds, but you can only do this if he allows it.
> 
> If he does continue to go through with the divorce, are you likely to go to the Summer Workshop anyway?


I have no intention of going to NYC this summer. If the D goes through - as I anticipate it will - I will be moving wherever Matt and our son go to maintain contact. And seeking a new job - which likely will not have an academic calendar, meaning I become a year round 8-5 kind of person. NYC is not on my list of priorities.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have no intention of going to NYC this summer. If the D goes through - as I anticipate it will - I will be moving wherever Matt and our son go to maintain contact. And seeking a new job - which likely will not have an academic calendar, meaning I become a year round 8-5 kind of person. NYC is not on my list of priorities.


I like what I'm hearing from you, Mrs_Mathias. I think you're on track and hope that you can stay there.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

dogman said:


> As usual I agree with you Wazza. But...
> 
> The thing is she said she started making bad decisions 6 months ago.
> 
> She needs to realize that if you allow yourself to go so far as long as its not full blown sex, you will end up in a situation that take Herculean strength to stop the momentum.
> 
> Letting yourself drift into even light EAs is a always a bad decision. For the OP they started when she started to indulge attraction for a student. Long before the PA started.


I agree that I was CONSCIOUSLY making bad decisions regarding the affair 6 months ago. I agree that I was making bad decisions regarding EA prior to that. But hindsight is 20/20. And I had not even heard the phrase 'emotional affair' prior to DDay #1 in July, nor did I know how to recognize it. My interactions with OM were frequent and personal, but i never sexually fantasized about him, or considered him in that manner prior to him kissing me the first time. My interactions with many other students/former students were as frequent and personal. Perhaps I was living in denial/fog, IDK. I am much more aware of that kind of pseudo-platonic interaction now, and am guarding myself against it. I have NO male confidants at this point. I am even guarded against female ones, to be honest.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have no intention of going to NYC this summer. If the D goes through - as I anticipate it will - I will be moving wherever Matt and our son go to maintain contact. And seeking a new job - which likely will not have an academic calendar, meaning I become a year round 8-5 kind of person. NYC is not on my list of priorities.


If you had answered any other way, you would have lost me totally. There is a little credit in that decision but only a little because it's frigging obvious.

That being said, another ACTION you can do is give your husband an opened letter to your husband to mail telling the NYC people to pound sand...politely of course.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> The sex started six months ago. It's an understandable number. If you really want to dig the EA probably was 11 months ago, but they were having other issues we don't know much about.
> 
> Mrs M, you have no idea how much you have hurt Matt. I have lost a parent and it didn't hurt like my wife's affair. Lots of betrayed spouses here are giving you a very hard time, and at one point you made some comment about them releasing their pain on you. I forget the exact words.
> 
> But here's the thing......that pain they are releasing is EXACTLY the pain you gave Matt. This is what you did to him.
> 
> If he takes you back, you bloody well better appreciate what that costs him inside. Because the fact is, though I agree he still loves you, love isn't enough.



Thank you Wazza for all your guidance and thoughts over the last few days. Love isn't enough. I know and I am accepting that what I did is unforgivable on so many levels. Matt and I talked about that this morning. I don't want his pain to be more prolonged than necessary. But every day is such a roller coaster right now, that I'm not sure how to tell what his resolve really is. So I keep working, I keep trying to be kind, to be present, to be loving in any way I can think of. I'm not sure how I will really know when our marriage is lost to us, but I hope I can see it clearly, because I do want to let him go with dignity and respect and love, if that is what he really needs and wants.


----------



## Pluto2

Mrs_Mathias said:


> because I do want to let him go with dignity and respect and love, if that is what he really needs and wants.


Sorry, but do you uinderstand that what Matt "needs" isn't for you to determine. You have lost that. In what way has he been ambiguous? Everything with you still seems conditional, I don't get it. I am not trying to beat you up, but your manner of communication is riddled with equivocation. Now is not the time to continue with that.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, but do you uinderstand that what Matt "needs" isn't for you to determine. You have lost that. In what way has he been ambiguous? Everything with you still seems conditional, I don't get it. I am not trying to beat you up, but your manner of communication is riddled with equivocation. Now is not the time to continue with that.


I'm not trying to determine that for him - I'm trying to tell how to recognize it from him. I don't mean to equivocate, but I am trying to be specific and there are lots of gray areas I am dealing with right now. 

Black and white - my affair was wrong. My affair was incredibly cruel and damaging to my husband and my son. I am truly sorry for the pain I caused. I never want anyone I love to feel that way by my hand again. I am working on fixing me. I want to help my husband if I can.


----------



## river rat

I have followed your entire posts with interest. I, like others here, and like yourself, have been appalled at your duplicity. However, the course you have currently set for yourself is the correct one. It will prove to be daunting, and will test your resolve, your courage, and your character. I pray that you are successful, regardless of the outcome of your marriage.


----------



## Tony55

JCD said:


> Tony and Jim.
> You are both no nonsense guys and I agree with you quite a bit normally. However in this instance, since I assume you are both BS', you don't understand the...depressurization it takes to get the drug out of her system.


I can't speak for Jim, but, for those who don't see what's painfully clear here, and why I'm asking for direct answers to specific questions, I'll draw it out for you.

First, I'm trying to cut through all the noise in this thread, I'm following my own logical path in an attempt to understand her frame of mind. I'm not concerned with paternity, or condoms, or what name she prefers to call the man she had/has an affair with, I'm trying to decide one thing, whether she's genuine or not.

I have to assume, that if she's on this board, having this discussion, it's because she hopes to avoid a divorce. Going on that assumption, before I can personally commit to offering her advice, I have to decide whether or not her motivation for so fervently pursuing reconciliation is motivated by *LOVE* or *FEAR* or *HEARTBREAK*. This is the core of the tree, and everything going forward in a potential reconciliation will hinge on this. I can't, in good conscience, attempt to help either her or her husband unless I believe what it is I'm suggesting.

My two simple direct questions are part of the attempt to understand here state of mind these past few weeks. Why do I doubt the sincerity of her desire to reconcile? Because of this...


November 2/3 – Spring Awakening, sex at Jillian’s, “romantic” goodbye/agreement to stay friends *(Romantic goodbye?)*
November 10 – Skype messaging *(Seriously?)*
November 11 or 12 – visit OM’s home before he moves to say geographic goodbye *(The day after Skyping she goes to his house; does anyone believe that this was just another goodbye?)*
November 12 or 13 – Skyping messaging to see if he’s moved/settled *(Do we believe she skyped to see if he's settled?)*
November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R (no confession of past events) *(Is this not crystal clear what her motivation is for this?)*
November 14? 16? - began removing ephemera of OM from office, deleting Skype from phone/ipad
November 18 – Final Skype message to OM, letting him know BH knows, OM is already aware, told him we are done messaging. *(That had to be done by Skype???)*
November 20 – BH asks me to leave house for few days *(Thankfully)*
November 22 – Return home, sit down with BH and confess affair from beginning to end, providing details and answering questions after completion, in-house separation begins.* (This... only after the OM moved.)*

To me, in the spirit of reconciliation, nothing else would matter until I established her motivation.

Everyone here seems to be missing the 500 pound gorilla in the room; *the reality of her relationship with the other man.* 

Letters, announcements, whatever, are irrelevant, those are things being done under duress, not from the heart, not when you take into account the timeline over the past 3 weeks.

This person will not be helped here if the basics are overlooked. She needs to come to grips with the reality of her relationship with her former lover (we can't even, in all honesty, say former at this point).

*The Reality* (unless proved otherwise): The moment the other man steps back into her life, via internet, phone or physically, she will go to him, virtually or physically; her heart is with this other man. I see this as clearly as I see my hand before my face.

I was hoping for a chance to have her convince me otherwise.

T


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tony55 said:


> I can't speak for Jim, but, for those who don't see what's painfully clear here, and why I'm asking for direct answers to specific questions, I'll draw it out for you.
> 
> First, I'm trying to cut through all the noise in this thread, I'm following my own logical path in an attempt to understand her frame of mind. I'm not concerned with paternity, or condoms, or what name she prefers to call the man she had/has an affair with, I'm trying to decide one thing, whether she's genuine or not.
> 
> I have to assume, that if she's on this board, having this discussion, it's because she hopes to avoid a divorce. Going on that assumption, before I can personally commit to offering her advice, I have to decide whether or not her motivation for so fervently pursuing reconciliation is motivated by *LOVE* or *FEAR* or *HEARTBREAK*. This is the core of the tree, and everything going forward in a potential reconciliation will hinge on this. I can't, in good conscience, attempt to help either her or her husband unless I believe what it is I'm suggesting.
> 
> My two simple direct questions are part of the attempt to understand here state of mind these past few weeks. Why do I doubt the sincerity of her desire to reconcile? Because of this...
> 
> 
> November 2/3 – Spring Awakening, sex at Jillian’s, “romantic” goodbye/agreement to stay friends *(Romantic goodbye?)*
> November 10 – Skype messaging *(Seriously?)*
> November 11 or 12 – visit OM’s home before he moves to say geographic goodbye *(The day after Skyping she goes to his house; does anyone believe that this was just another goodbye?)*
> November 12 or 13 – Skyping messaging to see if he’s moved/settled *(Do we believe she skyped to see if he's settled?)*
> November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R (no confession of past events) *(Is this not crystal clear what her motivation is for this?)*
> November 14? 16? - began removing ephemera of OM from office, deleting Skype from phone/ipad
> November 18 – Final Skype message to OM, letting him know BH knows, OM is already aware, told him we are done messaging. *(That had to be done by Skype???)*
> November 20 – BH asks me to leave house for few days *(Thankfully)*
> November 22 – Return home, sit down with BH and confess affair from beginning to end, providing details and answering questions after completion, in-house separation begins.* (This... only after the OM moved.)*
> 
> To me, in the spirit of reconciliation, nothing else would matter until I established her motivation.
> 
> Everyone here seems to be missing the 500 pound gorilla in the room; *the reality of her relationship with the other man.*
> 
> Letters, announcements, whatever, are irrelevant, those are things being done under duress, not from the heart, not when you take into account the timeline over the past 3 weeks.
> 
> This person will not be helped here if the basics are overlooked. She needs to come to grips with the reality of her relationship with her former lover (we can't even, in all honesty, say former at this point).
> 
> *The Reality* (unless proved otherwise): The moment the other man steps back into her life, via internet, phone or physically, she will go to him, virtually or physically; her heart is with this other man. I see this as clearly as I see my hand before my face.
> 
> I was hoping for a chance to have her convince me otherwise.
> 
> T


I am not sure what kind of response you want from me regarding the details above. I can say that OM has tried to contact me online since NC was established, and I immediately texted my husband so he could come home and deal with it. 

OM is definitely in the former category. There is absolutely nothing that I want/wish for from him except complete absence.


----------



## Tony55

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am not sure what kind of response you want from me regarding the details above. I can say that OM has tried to contact me online since NC was established, and I immediately texted my husband so he could come home and deal with it.
> 
> OM is definitely in the former category. There is absolutely nothing that I want/wish for from him except complete absence.


Why did you call your husband on the 14th, crying? Why did you have to call him, why couldn't you wait until you saw him later in person to discuss reconciliation? *Why were you crying at that moment*, on the 14th. two weeks ago?

T


----------



## JCD

Tony55 said:


> ...before I can personally commit to offering her advice, I have to decide whether or not her motivation for so fervently pursuing reconciliation is motivated by *LOVE* or *FEAR* or *HEARTBREAK*. This is the core of the tree, and everything going forward in a potential reconciliation will hinge on this.
> 
> T


Why choose one?

It's comforting to think there is one drive in a person. So while you are looking for a 'core trunk', the unfortunate truth is the tree you are tracing looks like this:











When I R'd with my wife, it had as much to do with finances, kids, and uncertainty of the future as it did with fairness and hopes for rekindling affection long dead and guilt.

It's good to test her. But you and I aren't really arguing particularly far apart.

You say this guy is still in her heart. I say the exact same thing. But the thing is, the limerance needs contact to continue to thrive. He's moved. She is trying to move on. Maybe he'll always be a weak spot in her armor...and maybe not. Considering it's two weeks after the formal and utter exposure, it's a bit early to judge.

Edited picture to not distort window


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tony55 said:


> Why did you call your husband on the 14th, crying? Why did you have to call him, why couldn't you wait until you saw him later in person to discuss reconciliation? *Why were you crying at that moment*, on the 14th. two weeks ago?
> 
> T


That was the day I came across some threads here and realized I had been copping out on R and wanted to change my path. I had been slowly separating myself from OM for a few weeks and was really starting to understand what I had risked and that I DIDN'T want to lose my marriage, even though I hadn't behaved that way. 

I called because I had a 2 hour break before my evening rehearsal, and I just couldn't wait for him to know what I was thinking and feeling any more. I had spent so much time hiding and not communicating with him, I needed that to stop.

Here's a copy of the email I sent him that night after I called:

There's hundreds of posts here - Beowulf is one long time poster who's marriage survived his wife's affair. Many of the people are pretty harsh to the woman posting the question, but they tell it like it is, and really made me realize that "allowing you time" to work through your emotions/anger is really just abandoning you and hiding myself from the guilt and pain. I want desperately to be there for you, to help you know what I think and feel. Anyway, this woman's marriage ended up not working out, but I believe most of the advice/viewpoints given to her has been thought-provoking for me tonight.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/34890-what-else-can-i-do.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38408-when-triggers-spiral-out-control.html

BTW, I am reconsidering this idea of allowing him time/space - but I do think I was using that as an excuse two weeks ago vs. now.


----------



## Tony55

JCD said:


> "The limerence needs contact to continue to thrive."
> 
> "Considering it's two weeks after the *formal and utter exposure*, it's a bit early to judge."


JCD, with all respect (and I do respect your posts), understanding what her motivation is for suddenly seeing the light, the day after the object of her infatuation moves, isn't her having an epiphany, it's an act of desperation. If it's an act of desperation, then it isn't genuine, and if it isn't genuine, then the move to reconcile is being built on a very, very weak foundation (the core, the trunk of the tree).

Limerence needs contact to thrive, but that's any contact, not just physical. Any connection whatsoever, email, text, anything, any hope, will keep limerence alive.

The formal and utter exposure came within 24 hours of the other man moving, that isn't a coincidence, the events are interrelated.

I would need to be 100% clear about these things before moving forward.

T


----------



## JCD

Tony55 said:


> JCD, with all respect (and I do respect your posts), understanding what her motivation is for suddenly seeing the light, the day after the object of her infatuation moves, isn't her having an epiphany, it's an act of desperation. If it's an act of desperation, then it isn't genuine, and if it isn't genuine, then the move to reconcile is being built on a very, very weak foundation (the core, the trunk of the tree).
> 
> Limerence needs contact to thrive, but that's any contact, not just physical. Any connection whatsoever, email, text, anything, any hope, will keep limerence alive.
> 
> The formal and utter exposure came within 24 hours of the other man moving, that isn't a coincidence, the events are interrelated.
> 
> I would need to be 100% clear about these things before moving forward.
> 
> T


Fair enough. I put some credence in her timeline which shows _some_ willing to cutting things off. Late and slowly, but some movement.

Multiple times, it's been said this was good bye and the move was planned well in advance etc.

I also look at DDay 3 in a slightly different light. All that revealed (your 24 hour thesis) was the depth of her depravity, not that she was depraved (which was D Day 2). Yes, she shouldn't have contacted him to tell him her husband knew, but it's understandable.

What if her husband came after him with a gun? Would she want her husband in jail? Would she want a stranger dead, much less her ex lover?

There might be some truth to how you frame it and you provide a good counterpoint with your direct questions. I thought the crying one was a good one.

But...like I said, motives are usually multifaceted. Affection dies slowly. How many Box of Rocks BS' do we need to read about here to geth THAT point rubbed in our faces? So if it takes some guy who's wife moved in with a geriatric patient a month or two to disconnect, why is it more likely for a woman to forget her lover on the turn of a dime?

I expect it to take a couple months for all the emotional baggage to unload...as long as she keeps tossing suitcases overboard!

One additional factor: She had already been exposed as an adulteress. And it wasn't her revealing it, it was her husband's detective work. There was no epiphany on her part....Excuse me. According to her, she was trying to end it but still remain friends (impossible I know). According to her husband, the party was a farewell party where she 'got him into her system to get him out of her system'

She has been put on notice what no contact means. She has no excuse now about not knowing what an EA is. Ignorance WAS an excuse. It isn't any more.


----------



## Tony55

Mrs_Mathias said:


> "That was the day I came across some threads here and realized I had been copping out on R and wanted to change my path."
> 
> "I had been slowly separating myself from OM for a few weeks"


So, it was something you read here, that particular day, 24 hours after your affair partner moved away, that made you realize you wanted to change your path? You don't think that maybe you felt an empty hole in your heart when he moved away and it hurt so bad that you had to reach out to the only other person you could, your husband? You don't think your tears during that call were more about the loss in your heart then for your marriage? The reality that the OM was really gone?

_"November 14 – crying call to husband, recommitment to R"_

If you were my teenage daughter, I would understand her not making such a connection, but you're not, you're an educated thirty something adult, can you possibly not see this? Do you not realize how dangerous it is to pursue reconciliation on false premises? The lives your affecting?

I think you mentioned a therapist, I don't remember, but if you're seeing one, you really need to bring this up. You need to ask your therapist what he/she thinks about this 24 window and the events that transpired and if he/she thinks they're related, and if so, what does it mean and what do you need to do about it.

T


----------



## WyshIknew

Mrs_Mathias said:


> BTW, I am reconsidering this idea of allowing him time/space - but I do think I was using that as an excuse two weeks ago vs. now.


I might be reading this wrong but I don't see how *you* can reconsider allowing him time and space.

You can ask *him* if he would reconsider the idea of giving him time and space.


You are right, most posters here will mecilessly bash a WS as many are projecting their situation onto your situation.

But conversely, should you be showing an honest, genuine, determined, *continued* attempt to turn things around, many (not all) will switch from bashing to trying to help you in any way possible. Strangely, considering the depth of your betrayal I can already see signs of this happening.


----------



## Wazza

JCD said:


> Fair enough. I put some credence in her timeline which shows _some_ willing to cutting things off. Late and slowly, but some movement.
> 
> Multiple times, it's been said this was good bye and the move was planned well in advance etc.
> 
> I also look at DDay 3 in a slightly different light. All that revealed (your 24 hour thesis) was the depth of her depravity, not that she was depraved (which was D Day 2). Yes, she shouldn't have contacted him to tell him her husband knew, but it's understandable.
> 
> What if her husband came after him with a gun? Would she want her husband in jail? Would she want a stranger dead, much less her ex lover?
> 
> There might be some truth to how you frame it and you provide a good counterpoint with your direct questions. I thought the crying one was a good one.
> 
> But...like I said, motives are usually multifaceted. Affection dies slowly. How many Box of Rocks BS' do we need to read about here to geth THAT point rubbed in our faces? So if it takes some guy who's wife moved in with a geriatric patient a month or two to disconnect, why is it more likely for a woman to forget her lover on the turn of a dime?
> 
> I expect it to take a couple months for all the emotional baggage to unload...as long as she keeps tossing suitcases overboard!
> 
> One additional factor: She had already been exposed as an adulteress. And it wasn't her revealing it, it was her husband's detective work. There was no epiphany on her part....Excuse me. According to her, she was trying to end it but still remain friends (impossible I know). According to her husband, the party was a farewell party where she 'got him into her system to get him out of her system'
> 
> She has been put on notice what no contact means. She has no excuse now about not knowing what an EA is. Ignorance WAS an excuse. It isn't any more.


On the money.

She gave her body and her heart to another man. Limerence is a powerful force and it sneaks up on you, so falling is kind of understandable. It took my own close brush with the same force to understand why my wife failed. It was only the luck of who I fell for and learning from my wife's mistakes that saved me from having my own affair. I'd like to assert it was my wonderful moral character, but I know that is not true.

Tony, yes if the OM shows up tomorrow and tries, he could have a fair shot at bedding her again I think. That is why no contact is s important. In time, she will regain perspective.

You are right with your line of questioning, because it is working on an important issue. But for me it is premature to give up hope based on what your questions are highlighting. 

Much as it hurts that my wife was physical with another man, the fact that, for a time, she loved him and hated me, hurts far more. Far more. From the Skype conversation he posted, Mat at least has that she was torn and loved both of them. I wish I had that.


----------



## Wazza

Tony55 said:


> you're an educated thirty something adult, can you possibly not see this?


She's receiving a hell of an education now.

I didn't really understand any of this stuff till I went through it. I suppose some people get it without the pain of infidelity as a teacher. Kudos to them.


----------



## TBT

Mrs_Mathias said:


> That was the day I came across some threads here and realized I had been copping out on R and wanted to change my path.


Then why the continued TTing and lying to your H and posters here in your original thread?


----------



## Acabado

Being driven towards two directions at the same time. The very definition of brokeness.
Tons of faulty thinking, defense mechanisms, mental gymnastics to deal with the obvious contradictions. And tons of lies. You (egneral) has to lie way more to yourself in ordert to lie to the rest. To sustain the three ringer circus.

Something I have in mind is I can't believe even for a minute you believed in a future with OM. You also had in mind OM was moving away, the end was already anticipated in your mind. I imagine it was really hard to accep the loss, this kind of drug is hard to give up. The amount of sugar of every single one of those "good byes" would induce vomit to any BS here but my heart want to reach out to Dr. They weren't goodbyes, they were "see you soons". All of them. Am I wrong? In your heart, is this NC definitive, a life long compromise?

Your journey to find the truth is just starting. Sending you strenth to keep your commitment in searching it.


----------



## Affaircare

I think I sort of see what Tony is saying, but in an effort to keep these posts addressed to MrsM, let me see if I can explain it to her. Again, having been a former disloyal spouse may help in being able to discern mindset, etc. 

MrsM~ 

First quick thing I just wanted to say thank you for continuing to come back and post. As you might imagine, many disloyals get put through the wringer like this, and they leave because "it doesn't feel good"--however you know as well as I do that sometimes doing the right thing is HARD and it doesn't always feel "natural" or come easily. So thanks for being brave and continuing to look at yourself and talk here. 

Okay second, I think what Tony is trying to point out is that for the EA part of the affair to really be over, there has to be a moment for you that is YOU seeing what you were doing, and YOU choosing to be done with it! Now don't get me wrong: I've seen instances where a loyal spouse will see their spouse having a work affair, and the confront, disclose, expose the affair and it's enough for the spouse maybe to be fired (for example). The fact that the "lovers" are no longer in daily proximity sort of squashes the affair--yet in the same way that no person can control another--the loyal can not MAKE the disloyal end the affair. If the disloyal spouse wanted to continue the affair all they'd have to do is get creative and get a long distance calling card, a burner cell phone, or make another email and they'd be right in touch again! Thus, even though putting the distance between them and ending the daily contact gives the marriage a more likely "fighting chance"....Until the disloyal decides within themselves that they are DONE...it means that actually the EA continues. Yes, the contact is WAY reduced --maybe it's just once-a-week email or just a really quick catch-up over skype...but it's not DEAD. 

So what we are looking for is that moment ...not when the OM left you. Not when you were dumped. Not when your hubby, DocM, "broke it up". But rather that 180 degree turning moment for you when you the house of cards collapsed and you said, "I just can NOT do this anymore. I'm done!" That moment when, inside you, you realized that even if Matt left or came back, YOU could not be an unfaithful person any more. 

Does that make sense? It's like an epiphany in a way. 

Now just to relate, here is what mine was like. My OM was a younger man whom I met on a game forum...that is to say the game was like roleplaying done through the forum. Okay so he did not know I was married or older than he was, and I did not make any effort to correct that omission. We carried on for a few months, and I was going to pack up and go meet him in real life, and Dear Hubby found me. And I don't know what it was--I can't say to other loyal spouses "Do THIS and your disloyal will see you"--but that day, he found me packing, and he just sat down and cried a few tears...and for some reason that day *I SAW HIM*. I saw the man I loved, and I saw the pain on his face, the regret, the tears, that he didn't want me to go. All that time I had either sort of avoided seeing him or just didn't see it, but that day... *I SAW IT!!* 

And that was it. I could not do it anymore. I could not be that person. My internal compass just would not allow me to be the kind of person who would do that to another human being, much less someone I actually did care about. I didn't particularly think about it that day, in that one moment, but I did know it wasn't going to be easy and that I would likely be embarrassed about the way I behaved for a long time. BUT at that moment it was like an epiphany and even if he had left (which I would have regretted deeply but understood) I knew inside me that I HAD TO STOP. I had to change the way I viewed my Dear Hubby, the way I though of OM, my friends, the way I viewed commitment and other male people...and the big point here is that *I* had to change *me*. No one else can do that--it has to come from you, inside you, for you. 

So that's what we're talking about. That moment when you said "I can not do this!" I have to admit, I thought it was conceivable it may have been when you came fully clean, but part of me still is hesitant to believe you really did tell it all. Still, you are still here and doing some of the hard thinking and some of he hard actions, so we shall see.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

WyshIknew said:


> I might be reading this wrong but I don't see how *you* can reconsider allowing him time and space.
> 
> You can ask *him* if he would reconsider the idea of giving him time and space.
> 
> 
> You are right, most posters here will mecilessly bash a WS as many are projecting their situation onto your situation.
> 
> But conversely, should you be showing an honest, genuine, determined, *continued* attempt to turn things around, many (not all) will switch from bashing to trying to help you in any way possible. Strangely, considering the depth of your betrayal I can already see signs of this happening.


What I meant about reconsidering is that on the 14th I knew that the space I had been giving him was for me, not him. I wasn't being there for him. Now I know after everything is finally out that he has to dictate what space he needs, so I am trying to be present but not pushy.


----------



## MattMatt

Tony55 said:


> JCD, with all respect (and I do respect your posts), understanding what her motivation is for suddenly seeing the light, the day after the object of her infatuation moves, isn't her having an epiphany, it's an act of desperation. If it's an act of desperation, then it isn't genuine, and if it isn't genuine, then the move to reconcile is being built on a very, very weak foundation (the core, the trunk of the tree).
> 
> Limerence needs contact to thrive, but that's any contact, not just physical. Any connection whatsoever, email, text, anything, any hope, will keep limerence alive.
> 
> The formal and utter exposure came within 24 hours of the other man moving, that isn't a coincidence, the events are interrelated.
> 
> I would need to be 100% clear about these things before moving forward.
> 
> T


Tony, in my case, I saw the light mere seconds away from having unprotected sex with the OW. I actually 'saw' a 3D image of my wife's smiling face and in an instant I was out of the fog and the affair was deader than a doornail.


----------



## Wazza

Can you choose the moment when the epiphany hits?


----------



## Tony55

Wazza said:


> Can you choose the moment when the epiphany hits?


No.

And in Mrs. Mathias' case, there has been no epiphany.

In my post I point out that, what might appear to the readers to be her epiphany, on Nov. 14th, was, in actuality, desperation (in my opinion).

I'm not saying an epiphany is something that has to happen in order to reconcile. I just want to be clear on that.

I understand that you might have been asking Affaircare that question.

T


----------



## Wazza

Tony55 said:


> No.
> 
> And in Mrs. Mathias' case, there has been no epiphany.
> 
> In my post I point out that, what might appear to the readers to be her epiphany, on Nov. 14th, was, in actuality, desperation (in my opinion).
> 
> I'm not saying an epiphany is something that has to happen in order to reconcile. I just want to be clear on that.
> 
> I understand that you might have been asking Affaircare that question.
> 
> T


No, it was a general question. And I was really leading to what you just said, that a clear moment of epiphany is not a mandatory condition of reconciliation in my view. 

My wife tells me that her moment of epiphany was after she spent the night with OM. She realised she had to end either the marriage or the affair. 

When I fell in love with another woman, in the aftermath of it, there was not really a clear epiphany moment. I had someone to talk to when I had no support at home, she was a beautiful woman who also liked me, and then I realised I was in love. Not falling in love, in love. I did some very conscious things...told her of my feelings (it was not a plea for love, it was a "help me not to do this" moment) and told my wife. If my "OW" had not respected my marriage, telling her would have given her everything she needed to seduce me. I was so foolish. And I was her boss at work. She was young, she could easily have been a soul mate. She was beautiful. The attraction was mutual. Had I been single I would have dated her. 

Does that level of detail help with why I have some sympathy for MrsM? If you've only been on the betrayed side, never flirted with the wayward side or confronted that you might fall, you don't truly get how it feels, any more than Mrs M really gets the pain she caused her husband.

I had another near miss that was sexual. That was more of an epiphany. "She is in my arms. She is excited. She wants me to touch her breast and kiss her. If I do that I have crossed a line." But no such moment with the first near miss. Heck, let's be honest, she was in my arms, and I had intended to bed her. By some standards, I had crossed the line.

We want to be so together and moral, and all of us, in the end, are just victims of hormones and emotions, working to master them as best we can.

Sometimes giving a broken person who has hurt you another chance, even though they don't bloody well deserve it, not one iota, is the best investment you can make in your own future happiness.


----------



## Tony55

Affaircare said:


> I think what Tony is trying to point out is that for the EA part of the affair to really be over, there has to be a moment for you that is YOU seeing what you were doing, and YOU choosing to be done with it!


Thanks Affaircare, I appreciate the effort, and I certainly understand how having an epiphany, such as yours, is a pivotal moment in someones realization of what they've done.

I'm really not asking or suggesting that Mrs. Mathias had or should have an epiphany in order to reconcile, that isn't it, I am telling her that she needs to be honest with herself about her motivation to pursue reconciliation on Nov 14th.

Let me put this another way. If it was me, and knowing what I, Tony, knows about this affair, the only thing that she could have said to me on Nov 14th, that would have made me look at her with true compassion, is if she said something like this...

_(And I hate to give anyone any ideas)_

Nov. 14th, OM just moved, she feels pain and sadness, she calls husband crying...

_"Hi, I just want to tell you I love you, and that I'm so sad right now, I want to talk to you tonight, I need your help."​_
Then, that night, if my wife said...

_I don't know what's wrong with me, I should be giving myself to you and our son 100%, but I can't let go of this feeling I have for (OM). I thought I would be ok, but I'm not, I know I love you, but it's killing me that he left, it hurts in my heart, and I know it hurts you to hear that, and I'm not trying to hurt you, but I need to be honest.

I need your help, I want things to go back to normal, but I don't know how. I don't want to care about (OM), I really don't, and I thought that I could do this on my own, but I can't, and it's killing me inside...​_
I think you get the point.

How can someone argue with that? It would hurt to hear it, but at least it would be a step in the right direction to figuring this thing out.

I don't need to outline the specifics in the timeline again, anyone who looks it over will see that there is a direct correlation between the OM moving and the WS making the crying phone call to the BS. In my opinion, that was the magic moment for the WS, it was that moment, if handled correctly, with full honesty, baring her soul, that she had the best chance to avoid divorce.

This is what I've been driving at in these posts.

T


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Sometimes giving a broken person who has hurt you another chance, even though they don't bloody well deserve it, not one iota, is the best investment you can make in your own future happiness.


This is very true!


----------



## bfree

Tony55 said:


> Thanks Affaircare, I appreciate the effort, and I certainly understand how having an epiphany, such as yours, is a pivotal moment in someones realization of what they've done.
> 
> I'm really not asking or suggesting that Mrs. Mathias had or should have an epiphany in order to reconcile, that isn't it, I am telling her that she needs to be honest with herself about her motivation to pursue reconciliation on Nov 14th.
> 
> Let me put this another way. If it was me, and knowing what I, Tony, knows about this affair, the only thing that she could have said to me on Nov 14th, that would have made me look at her with true compassion, is if she said something like this...
> 
> _(And I hate to give anyone any ideas)_
> 
> Nov. 14th, OM just moved, she feels pain and sadness, she calls husband crying...
> 
> _"Hi, I just want to tell you I love you, and that I'm so sad right now, I want to talk to you tonight, I need your help."​_
> Then, that night, if my wife said...
> 
> _I don't know what's wrong with me, I should be giving myself to you and our son 100%, but I can't let go of this feeling I have for (OM). I thought I would be ok, but I'm not, I know I love you, but it's killing me that he left, it hurts in my heart, and I know it hurts you to hear that, and I'm not trying to hurt you, but I need to be honest.
> 
> I need your help, I want things to go back to normal, but I don't know how. I don't want to care about (OM), I really don't, and I thought that I could do this on my own, but I can't, and it's killing me inside...​_
> I think you get the point.
> 
> How can someone argue with that? It would hurt to hear it, but at least it would be a step in the right direction to figuring this thing out.
> 
> I don't need to outline the specifics in the timeline again, anyone who looks it over will see that there is a direct correlation between the OM moving and the WS making the crying phone call to the BS. In my opinion, that was the magic moment for the WS, it was that moment, if handled correctly, with full honesty, baring her soul, that she had the best chance to avoid divorce.
> 
> This is what I've been driving at in these posts.
> 
> T


I have never been a WS and my ex certainly never had any epiphany or apparently even the slightest remorse for what she did but aren't you underestimating how confused a person can be when they are in an affair? I'm only going by what I've read here on TAM from other fWS and it seems that confusion, indecision and just general erratic behavior is quite common, almost normal. Is it possible that Mrs M was in fact feeling all the things that you mention including remorse and regret but just was unable to recognize them at the time?


----------



## Wazza

Tony55 said:


> Thanks Affaircare, I appreciate the effort, and I certainly understand how having an epiphany, such as yours, is a pivotal moment in someones realization of what they've done.
> 
> I'm really not asking or suggesting that Mrs. Mathias had or should have an epiphany in order to reconcile, that isn't it, I am telling her that she needs to be honest with herself about her motivation to pursue reconciliation on Nov 14th.
> 
> Let me put this another way. If it was me, and knowing what I, Tony, knows about this affair, the only thing that she could have said to me on Nov 14th, that would have made me look at her with true compassion, is if she said something like this...
> 
> _(And I hate to give anyone any ideas)_
> 
> Nov. 14th, OM just moved, she feels pain and sadness, she calls husband crying...
> 
> _"Hi, I just want to tell you I love you, and that I'm so sad right now, I want to talk to you tonight, I need your help."​_
> Then, that night, if my wife said...
> 
> _I don't know what's wrong with me, I should be giving myself to you and our son 100%, but I can't let go of this feeling I have for (OM). I thought I would be ok, but I'm not, I know I love you, but it's killing me that he left, it hurts in my heart, and I know it hurts you to hear that, and I'm not trying to hurt you, but I need to be honest.
> 
> I need your help, I want things to go back to normal, but I don't know how. I don't want to care about (OM), I really don't, and I thought that I could do this on my own, but I can't, and it's killing me inside...​_
> I think you get the point.
> 
> How can someone argue with that? It would hurt to hear it, but at least it would be a step in the right direction to figuring this thing out.
> 
> I don't need to outline the specifics in the timeline again, anyone who looks it over will see that there is a direct correlation between the OM moving and the WS making the crying phone call to the BS. In my opinion, that was the magic moment for the WS, it was that moment, if handled correctly, with full honesty, baring her soul, that she had the best chance to avoid divorce.
> 
> This is what I've been driving at in these posts.
> 
> T


If you are saying it is not yet clear that she has sworn off the OM, I agree 100%. 

Even if she THINKS she has.

MrsM, failing that, what can you do to make sure you CANNOT be alone with or communicate with OM. How can you give DrMat transparency on your movements and communications, to at least partly assuage his doubts.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tony55 said:


> Thanks Affaircare, I appreciate the effort, and I certainly understand how having an epiphany, such as yours, is a pivotal moment in someones realization of what they've done.
> 
> I'm really not asking or suggesting that Mrs. Mathias had or should have an epiphany in order to reconcile, that isn't it, I am telling her that she needs to be honest with herself about her motivation to pursue reconciliation on Nov 14th.
> 
> Let me put this another way. If it was me, and knowing what I, Tony, knows about this affair, the only thing that she could have said to me on Nov 14th, that would have made me look at her with true compassion, is if she said something like this...
> 
> _(And I hate to give anyone any ideas)_
> 
> Nov. 14th, OM just moved, she feels pain and sadness, she calls husband crying...
> 
> _"Hi, I just want to tell you I love you, and that I'm so sad right now, I want to talk to you tonight, I need your help."​_
> Then, that night, if my wife said...
> 
> _I don't know what's wrong with me, I should be giving myself to you and our son 100%, but I can't let go of this feeling I have for (OM). I thought I would be ok, but I'm not, I know I love you, but it's killing me that he left, it hurts in my heart, and I know it hurts you to hear that, and I'm not trying to hurt you, but I need to be honest.
> 
> I need your help, I want things to go back to normal, but I don't know how. I don't want to care about (OM), I really don't, and I thought that I could do this on my own, but I can't, and it's killing me inside...​_
> I think you get the point.
> 
> How can someone argue with that? It would hurt to hear it, but at least it would be a step in the right direction to figuring this thing out.
> 
> I don't need to outline the specifics in the timeline again, anyone who looks it over will see that there is a direct correlation between the OM moving and the WS making the crying phone call to the BS. In my opinion, that was the magic moment for the WS, it was that moment, if handled correctly, with full honesty, baring her soul, that she had the best chance to avoid divorce.
> 
> This is what I've been driving at in these posts.
> 
> T



I appreciate your digging for clarity and it makes me question myself about a lot. But I honestly feel that I had been separating myself from OM since the beginning of the month. Our online conversations were almost nonexistent, and the closest to an epiphany (prior to this past week) was maybe on November 9th when I realized I was feeling jealous for the first time in my life regarding my BH's communications with a female on FB/text. I had been so disconnected from him, that i never cared who he wrote to or what was said. And all of a sudden, I cared. I was jealous and concerned and shocked that I felt that way, because I was still in contact with OM. I did message OM the following day, because, truthfully, he had been my best friend and confidant for quite some time, so who else could I tell about my sudden awareness of my BH and how I was feeling? Fvcked up, I'm sure.

I spent a couple days trying to process that new/rediscovered emotion. Came on here and just finally admitted that I didn't want OM and did want Matt. Called crying because I knew I'd been sabatoging our chance to heal and I wanted to get back on board and let him know that as fast as possible.

Real epiphany - and maybe too late - came when Matt called me on Wednesday night to ask me a simple question that I knew he knew the answer too. And I lied. I lied before I could even stop my mouth to think or anything. And I just couldn't do that anymore. I totally flipped my sh1t, collapsed, bawled at my friend's house, went in to physical shock, shaking, shivering, retched and hyperventilated. I am a dramatic person emotionally, but I have never physically reacted to anything like that in my life.

I CANNOT function as the person I was. I am so deeply disgusted with what I did, and just ill all the time. I have been in my office now for two days, and while the computer makes me uneasy, it's not a desire to contact OM. It's like constantly staring at my shame and guilt.


----------



## CH

Mrs. Matt I really feel for you but I'm going to be pretty blunt here because I was in your shoes. Trust me, my story is worse than yours. If I somehow made it this far you could also.

But right now, you're in a hell that you made. But all that pity and shame, isn't for your husband or kid right now. It's the pity party for yourself.

Yes, you are ashamed that you did this to your family and you probably are remorseful over it. And now you've suddenly seen the light. But the pity train has to stop. I'll punish myself as a way to make him see that I'm sorry. Doesn't work that way.

I played the pity train, woes me. Wife didn't take that crap at all. Shut up, stop acting like a little whiny kid and grow up and face your demons. My R was not a rosy tale. I still treated her like crap and then we had more than enough issues plus alot of rug sweeping.

Then I lost myself into a game which I will not name but it's the crack of all games. How I fathered 3 kids during that time and how my wife stayed is beyond me.

15 years since d-day. Took another 5 years to get to some normalcy (we basically avoided one another as much as possible). Then another 5 years of me on that stupid game to escape reality. It's easy to lose oneself in fantasy to help with the guilt and pain.

Then 5 years ago I said enough was enough. I was going to get my life back with my wife and kids. Sex was almost gone, she and I had emotionally detached but still loved one another, well her more than me. It was hard that 1st year when I wanted my family back and I was on the verge of just calling it quits, mainly due to no intimacy but hey, I created the elephant in the room.

Don't waste the rest of your life wallowing in self pity. Get up, fix your sh!t and become a better person. I took way too long and just got lucky because either my wife loves me too much or she's not too smart and stuck it out with me. I'm going to assume she's not dumb because she's way smarter than I am.

Maybe you might get another chance with Mr. Matt, maybe you won't. But all this self pity bull is just that bull. You wanna punish yourself, throw your life away living in this sorry state you're in. Or you can get off your @ss and turn your life around.

BTW, you have someone else to worry about besides yourself now.

YOUR SON.

End of rant.


----------



## MattMatt

I just remembered this story from the UK
One Direction's Harry Styles slept with my wife... hours later she crawled into bed with me - 3am & Mirror Online

Sounds sadly familiar. Older, professional woman, young and rising star...


----------



## aug

yup, pure lust that's all it was.


----------



## Acabado

Take what you need, leave the rest.


----------



## JCD

Okay.

A lot of people are telling her to 'fix' herself. Sure. Great. That is nice advice but how does it give her actions TO fix herself. 

Maybe it's because I'm a guy, but let's try to figure out some specifics.

MM, you say after the 14th, you disappeared from the H's life out of selfishness. No doubt you had rationalizations. But you want to know HOW to both give him his space and be there for him at the same time. You WANT to be there (how can you fix things and show him you care if you are gone?)

First, he's asked you to leave. So that is honoring his wishes. Yet you are doing acts of service by showing up and giving your time, a precious commodity which you only generously doled out to your students, affair partner, anyone who showed an interest in theater and could buy a ticket, anyone who dressed nicely and seemed artistic...you get the point. Giving him as much time to your child as you can should mean something.

Unfortunately, it could just mean you are being manipulative. So make sure he knows if one morning he's triggering and doesn't want you there, even after driving at o'dark thirty, just go away. That is today. Tomorrow might be different.

Don't forget that letter to NYC.

How old is your boy? Can you take him to a camp or something else fun for a week during the summer instead? Honestly, you owe it to your boy and you owe your husband some alone time so he can stretch his wings and sort out a lot of crap going on in life.

And let me tell you as a man, the best way to do that is to dine on pizza for a week, watching bad television in my underwear while scratching myself alone in the house. It's near mystical in it's renewal properties! (This is only HALF a joke)

That might be another thing you can do: Give your husband his 'cave time' with the full understanding that he might be going after other chicks or working hard on divorce proceedings. You don't get to dictate his life anymore, but it's a gift which he might appreciate. I know your SON will appreciate the time.

Send your husband your daily schedule every morning in an email. If there are ANY changes, even if it's where you go to lunch or if you include any man in the GROUP (actually NEVER invite a man to any lunch your husband isn't present for...for now and never alone) you TEXT him. If you are constantly calling, he will think this is pushy. But a text he can glance at and shrug, obsess over, scream at, or just note.

Start to save your money. It's fungible. It can pay for kid stuff, gifts for you husband, liqour to drown your sorrows...or a divorce. So be careful with your money.

He should know you will be there when he wants to talk. ANYTIME. Clear your schedule. His new love language is 'acts of service' becaue you've darn well been absent for more than a year, so treat him that way.

Look up three polygraph companies and forward their rates and urls to your husband. He can decide if he wants to waste any time or money on that. I would also forward how reliable both it's proponents say and it's detractors so he is under no illusions on how good it actually is.

I can't think of anything else. I DO know that when my wife and kids suddenly all have to depart for place unknown and leave me alone in MY HOUSE, I have a "Whoo HOO!" moment. So see if you can arrange that for him.


----------



## jim123

JCD said:


> Tony and Jim.
> 
> You are both no nonsense guys and I agree with you quite a bit normally. However in this instance, since I assume you are both BS', you don't understand the...depressurization it takes to get the drug out of her system.
> 
> Please note that this is not an excuse for her to NOT MAKE PROGRESS.
> 
> Calling him her lover or being diffident in articulation is probably not as damning as you think. First, she was still emotionally cleaving to him up to two weeks ago. It took me a month to put aside a friend I didn't boink.
> 
> It's only now, 10 months later that I am understanding that my friends comments, insinuations etc were all a bit suspect. She barely has any distance.
> 
> And while she is an educated woman, language is 'squishy' enough that even a change of phrasing can cause the reader to imply things she never met. Did she mean 'ex lover'? Was she Freudian and did she mean CURRENT lover? No idea on my end and I wonder how much her mind actually knows at this point.
> 
> But this is what I see: She's written a NC letter. Hand written, typed, reed pressed on a mud brick in Sumerian Cunieform. I don't care.
> 
> She has, supposedly, cut her extracurricular activities to the bone because she has no faith that she will see her son in anywhere near meaningful enough times.
> 
> She is giving up custody OF HER SON! Yeah...if she is the most selfish b!tch in the world, big deal, right? That is not how she strikes me. But I'm a fool at times. If nothing else, her reputation with the grandpartent for leaving her kid will go straight down the toilet. What is she going to do, divorce her MOM?
> 
> So...there are some painful things she SEEMS to be doing.
> 
> And while the 'smart set' might think divorce is no big deal or any sign of personal failure, the unwashed masses (such as myself) knows better. She failed horribly. Forget the Scarlet A; the big red F would be painful enough for me.
> 
> I will double check with the doctor. If it's true, that is a small start.


Actually the comment was meant to the Mrs. with the knowledge that Matt is reading what she says. When you are trying to convince your spouse you want only them, do not call the OM your lover.

It had nothing to do with me or anyone else. These little things can mean a lot to someone who is hurt. If you think we are looking close at what she says, Matt is more. My comment gave her the chance to correct the wording.


----------



## Jonesey

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *I am not sure what kind of response you want from me regarding the details above.*
> What is confusing? How about answer it honestly?
> Its not like he is asking for the check..
> 
> 
> What would be you´r honest answer to this Part in TONY55´s post mad to you. If your husband seriously asked you this question.
> Right now???
> 
> *The Reality (unless proved otherwise): The moment the other man steps back into her life, via internet, phone or physically, she will go to him, virtually or physically; her heart is with this other man. I see this as clearly as I see my hand before my face.
> 
> I was hoping for a chance to have her convince me otherwise.
> 
> *


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> That was the day I came across some threads here and realized I had been copping out on R and wanted to change my path. I had been slowly separating myself from OM for a few weeks and was really starting to understand what I had risked and that I DIDN'T want to lose my marriage, even though I hadn't behaved that way.
> 
> I called because I had a 2 hour break before my evening rehearsal, and I just couldn't wait for him to know what I was thinking and feeling any more. I had spent so much time hiding and not communicating with him, I needed that to stop.
> 
> Here's a copy of the email I sent him that night after I called:
> 
> There's hundreds of posts here - Beowulf is one long time poster who's marriage survived his wife's affair. Many of the people are pretty harsh to the woman posting the question, but they tell it like it is, and really made me realize that "allowing you time" to work through your emotions/anger is really just abandoning you and hiding myself from the guilt and pain. I want desperately to be there for you, to help you know what I think and feel. Anyway, this woman's marriage ended up not working out, but I believe most of the advice/viewpoints given to her has been thought-provoking for me tonight.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/34890-what-else-can-i-do.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38408-when-triggers-spiral-out-control.html
> 
> BTW, I am reconsidering this idea of allowing him time/space - but I do think I was using that as an excuse two weeks ago vs. now.


Why did you come here in an attempt to tell a lie? If you read these treads you know that you did not do most things that people advise.


----------



## Tony55

Mrs_Mathias said:


> ...November 9th when I realized I was feeling jealous for the first time in my life regarding my BH's communications with a female on FB/text. I had been so disconnected from him, that i never cared who he wrote to or what was said. And all of a sudden, I cared. I was jealous and concerned and shocked that I felt that way, because I was still in contact with OM. I did message OM the following day, because, truthfully, he had been my best friend and confidant for quite some time, so who else could I tell about my sudden awareness of my BH and how I was feeling? Fvcked up, I'm sure.


Actually, that's probably the most normal thing I've read from you so far. You're jealousy upon discovering that another female desired your husband was instinctual, you were reacting to the equivalent of what some call the 180 (whether he's doing it intentionally or not I don't know, but that doesn't matter, it got your attention). Rejection hurts, but at the same time, it's the quickest way to turn a wayward spouse around.


This, on the other hand, is where your thinking derails again...

_"I did message OM the following day, because, truthfully, he had been my best friend and confidant for quite some time, so who else could I tell about my sudden awareness of my BH and how I was feeling?"_

*Who else could you have told? You husband would have been a good place to start.*

See, it's thinking like this that really bothers me, why would you run to the other man with this latest discovery, why not to your husband, what's going on in your head at that moment? You say your were jealous, but you confide in your (former) lover; who would do that?

Rather than wait for an answer and confuse people here, I'll tell you what I believe.

You were jealous, I don't doubt that, but you went to the OM with this information because, somewhere in your head, consciously or unconsciously, you were hoping to get a jealous response from him, you wanted to hold this shining new emotion you had for your husband up to the OM, to show him he wasn't the greatest thing that ever happened in your life. You wanted the OM to feel jealousy and to desire you more. But it didn't work, and 4 days later, after two Skype sessions and a personal visit, you were on the phone with your husband, crying and doing damage control.

I know I make this sound like I KNOW 100% sure that things unfolded like this, obviously I can't possibly know this because I don't know any of you nor do I know all the facts, but based on what I do know, I feel pretty good about my instincts on this.

I'm not trying to hurt you or be mean to you, or cause you further grief, my reason for dwelling on this, the relationship/bond you have/had with the OM, is just to help you see all this more clearly. Like I said, I could be wrong.

I sure wish I could talk one-on-one with the OM; I'd get to the bottom of this whole thing pretty quick.

T


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have zero loyalty to OM. However, I find your scenario iffy. I think as someone who truly loves my husband I would attempt to prevent him from putting himself in harm's way like that (legal). But yes, hypothetically, I would lie to protect Matt over the OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But here is the key. You are not protecting Matt over the OM. As long as OM is not toxic you can not properly R.

As long as OM is part of you, he is hurting Matt through you. The OM is keeping you from your family. Are you going to let him destroy Matt, destroy your family. OM is hurting your husband and you still think highly of him.

How should you feel about someone who hurts your family.


----------



## Jonesey

Tony55 said:


> Actually, that's probably the most normal thing I've read from you so far. *You're jealousy upon discovering that another female desired your husband* I´m not disagreeing with you here..But that can also mean,that she just displayed the biggest irony,with cheater´s.Meaning the don't mind fooling around on Husband/Wife..But not the other way around...
> 
> 
> 
> was instinctual, you were reacting to the equivalent of what some call the 180 (whether he's doing it intentionally or not I don't know, but that doesn't matter, it got your attention). Rejection hurts, but at the same time, it's the quickest way to turn a wayward spouse around.
> 
> 
> This, on the other hand, is where your thinking derails again...
> 
> _"I did message OM the following day, because, truthfully, he had been my best friend and confidant for quite some time, so who else could I tell about my sudden awareness of my BH and how I was feeling?"_
> 
> *Who else could you have told? You husband would have been a good place to start.*
> 
> See, it's thinking like this that really bothers me, why would you run to the other man with this latest discovery, why not to your husband, what's going on in your head at that moment? You say your were jealous, but you confide in your (former) lover; who would do that?
> 
> Rather than wait for an answer and confuse people here, I'll tell you what I believe.
> 
> You were jealous, I don't doubt that, but you went to the OM with this information because, somewhere in your head, consciously or unconsciously, you were hoping to get a jealous response from him, you wanted to hold this shining new emotion you had for your husband up to the OM, to show him he wasn't the greatest thing that ever happened in your life. You wanted the OM to feel jealousy and to desire you more. But it didn't work, and 4 days later, after two Skype sessions and a personal visit, you were on the phone with your husband, crying and doing damage control.
> 
> I know I make this sound like I KNOW 100% sure that things unfolded like this, obviously I can't possibly know this because I don't know any of you nor do I know all the facts, but based on what I do know, I feel pretty good about my instincts on this.
> 
> I'm not trying to hurt you or be mean to you, or cause you further grief, my reason for dwelling on this, the relationship/bond you have/had with the OM, is just to help you see all this more clearly. Like I said, I could be wrong.
> 
> I sure wish I could talk one-on-one with the OM; I'd get to the bottom of this whole thing pretty quick.
> 
> T


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> If you are saying it is not yet clear that she has sworn off the OM, I agree 100%.
> 
> Even if she THINKS she has.
> 
> MrsM, failing that, what can you do to make sure you CANNOT be alone with or communicate with OM. How can you give DrMat transparency on your movements and communications, to at least partly assuage his doubts.


I have deleted Skype from all my devices, and Matt has changed passwords to my accounts so I cannot access them even if I were to re-install it. I have deactivated my FB account. Matt has passwords to all my email accounts, and my phone.

Each day I am emailing him my schedule, and updating him of any changes. When I leave the house for the evening, I text when I arrive at my other residence.

I do have to spend time alone in my office with the computer. But I have tried to take every precaution I can think of to maintain strict NC.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tony55 said:


> Actually, that's probably the most normal thing I've read from you so far. You're jealousy upon discovering that another female desired your husband was instinctual, you were reacting to the equivalent of what some call the 180 (whether he's doing it intentionally or not I don't know, but that doesn't matter, it got your attention). Rejection hurts, but at the same time, it's the quickest way to turn a wayward spouse around.
> 
> 
> This, on the other hand, is where your thinking derails again...
> 
> _"I did message OM the following day, because, truthfully, he had been my best friend and confidant for quite some time, so who else could I tell about my sudden awareness of my BH and how I was feeling?"_
> 
> *Who else could you have told? You husband would have been a good place to start.*
> 
> I did talk to my husband about it the same night. It doesn't excuse my communication with OM, but I am in the habit of talking to friends about things before addressing them with Matt. I am working on changing that pattern of behavior and have been much more communicative with him recently.
> 
> See, it's thinking like this that really bothers me, why would you run to the other man with this latest discovery, why not to your husband, what's going on in your head at that moment? You say your were jealous, but you confide in your (former) lover; who would do that?
> 
> Rather than wait for an answer and confuse people here, I'll tell you what I believe.
> 
> You were jealous, I don't doubt that, but you went to the OM with this information because, somewhere in your head, consciously or unconsciously, you were hoping to get a jealous response from him, you wanted to hold this shining new emotion you had for your husband up to the OM, to show him he wasn't the greatest thing that ever happened in your life. You wanted the OM to feel jealousy and to desire you more. But it didn't work, and 4 days later, after two Skype sessions and a personal visit, you were on the phone with your husband, crying and doing damage control.
> 
> I know I make this sound like I KNOW 100% sure that things unfolded like this, obviously I can't possibly know this because I don't know any of you nor do I know all the facts, but based on what I do know, I feel pretty good about my instincts on this.
> 
> I'm not trying to hurt you or be mean to you, or cause you further grief, my reason for dwelling on this, the relationship/bond you have/had with the OM, is just to help you see all this more clearly. Like I said, I could be wrong.
> 
> I don't find your posts hurtful or mean. I know what you are trying to accomplish and it has had an impact on my thinking. Thanks.
> 
> I sure wish I could talk one-on-one with the OM; I'd get to the bottom of this whole thing pretty quick.
> 
> T


----------



## dunce

Mrs Mathias another question. or another hypothetical situation. If dr came to you with this proposition, it being I will try to reconcile, but there will likely be not intimacy in our relationship from now on. we will be friends , respectful of each other. good parents to our child, but there will be no embraces or kisses , let alone sex from now on . would you agree to this in order to stay married to the dr?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

> I did talk to my husband about it the same night. It doesn't excuse my communication with OM, but *I am in the habit of talking to friends *about things before addressing them with Matt. I am working on changing that pattern of behavior and have been much more communicative with him recently.


I am sorry, but are you serious about this? You are in a habit of talking to friends, so you reach out to the OM? How self-absorbed are you? Don't answer, but really think about that. You still consider the man that you threw away your marriage for a friend. You talk to him before talking to your husband. You again chose him over your husband.

I asked a couple of times in your deleted thread and will ask it again now - before this all came out, when was the last time you put your husband first because you genuinely wanted to.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

dunce said:


> Mrs Mathias another question. or another hypothetical situation. If dr came to you with this proposition, it being I will try to reconcile, but there will likely be not intimacy in our relationship from now on. we will be friends , respectful of each other. good parents to our child, but there will be no embraces or kisses , let alone sex from now on . would you agree to this in order to stay married to the dr?


I don't think either of us would be satisfied in a sexless/affectionless marriage. If we are going to R, I want us to have a stronger, better marriage than we had before, not a shell for convenience. We can be respectful friends and co-parents outside of marriage. I want more for Matt and for myself than that kind of arrangement.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am sorry, but are you serious about this? You are in a habit of talking to friends, so you reach out to the OM? How self-absorbed are you? Don't answer, but really think about that. You still consider the man that you threw away your marriage for a friend. You talk to him before talking to your husband. You again chose him over your husband.
> 
> I asked a couple of times in your deleted thread and will ask it again now - before this all came out, when was the last time you put your husband first because you genuinely wanted to.


I think you are mistaking my discussing the past with my present. I am NOT friends with OM. I do not consider him as such. I was discussing an event that transpired prior to establishing strict NC.

Last fall my husband and I celebrated our 10th anniversary in the city we honeymooned in. I arranged for a weekend sitter for our son, planned the travel, flights, events, all as a surprise for him. I just told him to clear his calendar on those dates. He guessed what it was, because I'm terrible at secrets, but I knew he'd enjoy going back there and I wanted the time for us. It was the most "us" time we'd had since our son was born.

I'm sure there have been small things since then - taking my son to work with me some days in NYC so he could have some quiet time for museums, etc., but that is a definite, no doubt situation.


----------



## Racer

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Last fall my husband and I celebrated our 10th anniversary in the city we honeymooned in. I arranged for a weekend sitter for our son, planned the travel, flights, events, all as a surprise for him. I just told him to clear his calendar on those dates. He guessed what it was, because I'm terrible at secrets, but I knew he'd enjoy going back there and I wanted the time for us. It was the most "us" time we'd had since our son was born..


Oh geez you are a delusional one looking for pats on the back? Wanna know how Matt remembers this now? Just fill in the rest of how much of a giver you really were.



> 1st or 2nd week of September – Saw OM on street walking, shortly after Skyping resumes, primarily messaging during the day with some short video chats
> 2nd or 3rd week of September – drive-throughs, book exchange begins
> End of Sept./beginning of October – PA resumes, first penetrative sex at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues – false goodbye
> 2nd week of October – encounter in sound booth, Skyping/book exchange continues
> 3rd /4th weeks of October – 2 more sexual encounters at OM’s home, Skyping/book exchange continues


Yes, the trip with Matt really happened. How special; Add in the rest and look where the real giving was being done. What you need to get entrenched into your head is that what you value and cherish are your own things and you need to see it as a whole, not as two different lives. It’s your life. 

Seems to me that you cherry pick the best so you see only what you want to see. It doesn’t work like that. See the whole you, and maybe, just maybe you’ll see where you need to work. A special weekend with your husband is now just a flower growing on a war torn landscape. While the flower may be pretty, it does not define the scene.


----------



## warlock07

The stuff she mentioned was from 2011 I think


----------



## Broken at 20

So...
You had a wonderful anniversary in the fall, only to start an EA in less than 6 months?

What was missing from your marriage? 
Or do you not really know?


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Quote from Matt's first page:

My wife and I have been married 11 years. We're both instructors at a two year school and have a 2 year old boy.

She is a music teacher, and has long hours away from home and close relationships with students-even more so during the school musicals which can get pretty emotional and cathartic. One night when I set up a romantic evening in the spare bedroom, she and her attractive young male protege both came in, and he took the liberty of going in and taking a nap- moving some stuff and spoiling the evening. We have had students live in our house before, and for some reason he became totally at home. We had pretty horrible boundaries in that regard. I confronted her about it, in no uncertain terms stated the I suspected an affair (she said there was no possibility, and it hadn't in fact escalated to kissing at that point). I said I did not want to be a cuckold.


Yes, you really responded to Romantic gestures by your husband


----------



## warlock07

Let us not make it a bashfest..No point and it is not constructive


----------



## Acabado

> I did talk to my husband about it the same night. It doesn't excuse my communication with OM, but *I am in the habit of talking to friends about things before addressing them with Matt*. I am working on changing that pattern of behavior and have been much more communicative with him recently.


Very interesting, do you know why did you do that. Is it a long term habit? Where this come from? When did it start? Is it something you did with you past partners? Is it to test your own feelings about Matt or current parter in general? To decide whether some course of action is needed or not? Is because Matt is somehow someone you have to "deal with"? Somehow a project you are wroking on? Did you ever have also girlfriends for this porpouses?

The quoted statement provide a good target to dig in, at IC (still crossing my fingers she/he is a good counselor for you, some who guide you to reach out the right conclusions on your own). I'm not asking you to answer these questions here (maybe it would't a good idea) but to help you challenge your own habits, thought process and - false - beliefs. Changing the bad habits is the goal, I'm glad you are taking care of it, but challenging them would help you to get the bigger picture about how you unterstand intimacy, boundaires... Do you understand this is another example of very poor boundaires?

Small note for the future: Male are not "confidants". Doesn't exist such a thing, unless they are gay.

Hang in there.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> Very interesting, do you know why did you do that. Is it a long term habit? Where this come from? When did it start? Is it something you did with you past partners? Is it to test your own feelings about Matt or current parter in general? To decide whether some course of action is needed or not? Is because Matt is somehow someone you have to "deal with"? Somehow a project you are wroking on? Did you ever have also girlfriends for this porpouses?
> 
> The quoted statement provide a good target to dig in, at IC (still crossing my fingers she/he is a good counselor for you, some who guide you to reach out the right conclusions on your own). I'm not asking you to answer these questions here (maybe it would't a good idea) but to help you challenge your own habits, thought process and - false - beliefs. Changing the bad habits is the goal, I'm glad you are taking care of it, but challenging them would help you to get the bigger picture about how you unterstand intimacy, boundaires... Do you understand this is another example of very poor boundaires?
> 
> Small note for the future: Male are not "confidants". Doesn't exist such a thing, unless they are gay.
> 
> Hang in there.


Totally agree. I'm not absolutely opposed to opposite sex friends as a matter of principle, but they must be handled carefully and in your case no way if you want ANY chance of saving your marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think you are mistaking my discussing the past with my present. I am NOT friends with OM. I do not consider him as such. I was discussing an event that transpired prior to establishing strict NC.


Was it because you thought of him as one of your friends that you routinely went to talk about things, or was it becasue of your incredible connection with him. I suspect it was the former, and while I mistook the timeline, your instance on sugar-coating illustrates your continuing problem with sugar-coating things.



> Last fall my husband and I celebrated our 10th anniversary in the city we honeymooned in. I arranged for a weekend sitter for our son, planned the travel, flights, events, all as a surprise for him. I just told him to clear his calendar on those dates. He guessed what it was, because I'm terrible at secrets, but I knew he'd enjoy going back there and I wanted the time for us. It was the most "us" time we'd had since our son was born.
> 
> I'm sure there have been small things since then - taking my son to work with me some days in NYC so he could have some quiet time for museums, etc., but that is a definite, no doubt situation.


By last fall, do you mean this year or 2011 (I already made one mistake with the time line)? Was that for him or you? What did you give up to do this for him? While this is a nice gift, it is not exactly scut duty to have to go with him for a weekend on the town. Perhaps it is just me (and probably because of your prior posts), but this does not exactly scream putting him first, like turning down a project because you want to spend time with him. At best, it comes across as you elevting him to 1A for a weekend.


----------



## dunce

mrs M , I ask some questions based on imaginary scenerios to help you find out where you are emotionally. If I understood your responses, you said you would lie to protect matt. I meant would you lie to protect matt if your lying sent the om to jail? I take you you are at that place now. I also, asked about living a very emotionally austere life with matt should he give you that option. you are not up for that. I wanted to find out how bad you wanted to be with him as your husband. You said no to that condition. I take it to mean you will not reconcile under any conditions other than those conditions with which you want. I think were I Matt i'd require that you take me under any conditions that I was willing to meet. My thinking is you are not willing to reconcile unless the situation meets with your requirements. I once told a significant other, "now its my way or no way" I dont say thats the best way to go but sometimes its a good measure of where a couple stands in relation to one another.


----------



## Wazza

dunce said:


> mrs M , I ask some questions based on imaginary scenerios to help you find out where you are emotionally. If I understood your responses, you said you would lie to protect matt. I meant would you lie to protect matt if your lying sent the om to jail? I take you you are at that place now. I also, asked about living a very emotionally austere life with matt should he give you that option. you are not up for that. I wanted to find out how bad you wanted to be with him as your husband. You said no to that condition. I take it to mean you will not reconcile under any conditions other than those conditions with which you want. I think were I Matt i'd require that you take me under any conditions that I was willing to meet. My thinking is you are not willing to reconcile unless the situation meets with your requirements. I once told a significant other, "now its my way or no way" I dont say thats the best way to go but sometimes its a good measure of where a couple stands in relation to one another.


Dunce, while I get your point, my own experience was that I stayed for the kids and lived with a very austere marriage for some years before really working on fixing it. It almost led to me falling into infidelity as well. I've already posted about that.

If I may be blunt, I really needed to stop licking my wounds and get my head out of my backside, and it took me far longer than it should have to do so.

(As a side note, my wife's commitment to me during that time when things were not good served as proof that she had learned from her mistake.)

So while we might want to see MrsM grovel, I actually think that was a pretty good answer. And who would have believed her if she had said otherwise?

Based on my personal experience I would advise both the Mathiases to commit to really rebuilding a good relationship if they decide to reconcile. If they have no intention of doing that, I would recommend they consider divorce....with great sadness for the sake of their child, but with no hesitation.


----------



## dunce

wazza, you make a lot of sense. I would reccomend that the mathiasis pay attention to you no matter which way they go.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Great post, Wazza! 

How are you, Mrs M? What have you done for you BH today? I find I feel less like a POS when I do something helpful or romantic for my husband, like I'm being proactive. 

Annie


----------



## happyman64

AnnieAsh said:


> Great post, Wazza!
> 
> How are you, Mrs M? What have you done for you BH today? I find I feel less like a POS when I do something helpful or romantic for my husband, like I'm being proactive.
> 
> Annie


Oh Annie!

You have come so far in such a short time.

Kudos to you....

HM64


----------



## AnnieAsh

happyman64 said:


> Oh Annie!
> 
> You have come so far in such a short time.
> 
> Kudos to you....
> 
> HM64


Thank you! No contact went a LOOOOOOONG way to clearing my head. I was not thinking clearly, I was trying to take the easy way out. 

This whole thing makes me so sad because I can see how my children's happiness rests on my marriage and the stability of our home. I am praying for you Mrs M, and your husband and child. *hugs*


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

AnnieAsh said:


> Great post, Wazza!
> 
> How are you, Mrs M? What have you done for you BH today? I find I feel less like a POS when I do something helpful or romantic for my husband, like I'm being proactive.
> 
> Annie


I made his bed today and folded up his clothes from last night. Made and poured/prepared his morning coffee while he cooked omelets. Evenings have been up and down lately, so mostly I've just been trying to communicate when he seems amenable to that and available when he's not. Small things, but I'm trying.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Tall Average Guy said:


> Was it because you thought of him as one of your friends that you routinely went to talk about things, or was it becasue of your incredible connection with him. I suspect it was the former, and while I mistook the timeline, your instance on sugar-coating illustrates your continuing problem with sugar-coating things.
> 
> 
> 
> By last fall, do you mean this year or 2011 (I already made one mistake with the time line)? Was that for him or you? What did you give up to do this for him? While this is a nice gift, it is not exactly scut duty to have to go with him for a weekend on the town. Perhaps it is just me (and probably because of your prior posts), but this does not exactly scream putting him first, like turning down a project because you want to spend time with him. At best, it comes across as you elevting him to 1A for a weekend.



By last fall, I do mean 2011. Later today or tomorrow I'll try to write a post addressing some of the issues in our marriage pre-affair to help clarify our situation.


----------



## Complexity

So her husband decided to reconcile?


----------



## CH

Mrs. Mat if your husband asked for you to take a polygraph would you do it?

The only issue I have is that he's stated you've have your share of students living with the 2 of you (or sleeping over from time to time). It also seemed that he had no say in that at all and you had free reign to bring a student home and they could stay the night if they wanted to.

If he asked that question would it come back that nothing like this has ever happened before?

If I was your husband and I was willing to R for whatever reason, this would be the one question I would want to know, is it the 1st and only time with a fellow student or co-worker.

You're saying all the right things, I hope you stick with it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

cheatinghubby said:


> Mrs. Mat if your husband asked for you to take a polygraph would you do it?
> 
> The only issue I have is that he's stated you've have your share of students living with the 2 of you (or sleeping over from time to time). It also seemed that he had no say in that at all and you had free reign to bring a student home and they could stay the night if they wanted to.
> 
> If he asked that question would it come back that nothing like this has ever happened before?
> 
> If I was your husband and I was willing to R for whatever reason, this would be the one question I would want to know, is it the 1st and only time with a fellow student or co-worker.
> 
> You're saying all the right things, I hope you stick with it.


Yes I absolutely would take a polygraph. In the past 9 years, we have had in the following order: 1 male student, 1 male co-worker, 1 female former student, 1 female summer house sitter - primarily in residence while we were gone, 1 male student, 2 male house sitters - one was OM - also in residence while we were gone. 

Matt did have say in whether they were in the house. We always discussed it in advance. I will say however, once we started doing it and it became more common, I suppose they were less discussions and more, is this alright/yes type conversations.


----------



## turnera

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I knew Matt had been stressed by life with our son, how could I chance making it worse?


What does this mean? What caused him to be stressed?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I made his bed today and folded up his clothes from last night. Made and poured/prepared his morning coffee while he cooked omelets. Evenings have been up and down lately, so mostly I've just been trying to communicate when he seems amenable to that and available when he's not. Small things, but I'm trying.


Keep making yourself available to him. I read that all your passwords have been changed, great job. How has your time been with your son?

Annie


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I made his bed today and folded up his clothes from last night. Made and poured/prepared his morning coffee while he cooked omelets. Evenings have been up and down lately, so mostly I've just been trying to communicate when he seems amenable to that and available when he's not. Small things, but I'm trying.


You haven't had the role of a wife and mother for a while. That doesn't mean you didn't care, but that wasn't the role you were acting.

It will take a while but trust me that the two of them probably are happy to see things like this.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Time with my son has been wonderful. I am really happy with my decision to "unplug" while I am in in the house. Last night was the first night all week that he really watched much TV instead of just playing together because Matt seemed to want to talk and be close to me for a while, so I enjoyed that time with him.

My next counseling appointment is tomorrow afternoon. I'm looking forward to starting from the beginning, even though it will be hard. I'm working on my "general marriage" post. Will get it up when I can.


----------



## The Middleman

Mrs Mathias: Have you given any thought on how you you are going try to compensate DrMathias for all the pain he has been through or maybe find a way to level the playing field with him? So far all I'm hearing is: "I'll be a good girl from now on".


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

The Middleman said:


> Mrs Mathias: Have you given any thought on how you you are going try to compensate DrMathias for all the pain he has been through or maybe find a way to level the playing field with him? So far all I'm hearing is: "I'll be a good girl from now on".


There will never be a way to "level the playing field", IMO. That's the basic unfairness of life after an affair. We have discussed him having a free pass, we are working on filling out our divorce papers. But the fact is - no WS can EVER make up for what they have done to BS. All I can give him is my time, my energy, my love - and the fact is, he may decide at any moment he doesn't want that. Equality doesn't exist in this circumstance, I don't think. I will always be less than him, if he chooses to give me an opportunity to change. Yes - that is something AGAIN that he GIVES me. All I can hope is that what I offer him in return for that gift shows my true commitment to our relationship and family, and that time will help with our pain, and that my affair will be one set of memories mixed in with all the other wonderful memories we have made over the last 15 years and for years to come.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

The Middleman said:


> Mrs Mathias: Have you given any thought on how you you are going try to compensate DrMathias for all the pain he has been through or maybe find a way to level the playing field with him? So far all I'm hearing is: "I'll be a good girl from now on".


Not really possible. She's doing what she can. Any evening of the score will just cause problems and not fix anything.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Although I admit that for me it would be helpful if there was something, anything, she refused the OM that she offered to me enthusiastically. But that's just my personality. Probably not Matt's thing.


----------



## The Middleman

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not really possible. She's doing what she can. Any evening of the score will just cause problems and not fix anything.


I whole-heartedly disagree. "I'll be a good girl from now on" just doesn't cut it. She got very creative in managing the affair, put some of that creativity into leveling the playing field.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> By last fall, I do mean 2011. Later today or tomorrow I'll try to write a post addressing some of the issues in our marriage pre-affair to help clarify our situation.


Thanks.

I do think it is a good idea to really think, objectively, about what was happening in your marriage in the years prior to the affait. You don't need to lay it out here (though certainly can if it is helpful) but really think about what was good, what was and what was ugly for you, for him and for your marriage. No sugar coating or justifying that one of you agreed to it, but actually look at the times each of you took advantage of the other, put them first, sacrificed for them, blew them off, avoided them, etc. It is hard to do, but being honest about that can help you, because those issues are part of this whole circumstance.


----------



## The Middleman

Mrs_Mathias said:


> There will never be a way to "level the playing field", IMO. That's the basic unfairness of life after an affair.


IMO, not a good enough answer. You put a lot of creativity into having and hiding your affair, perhaps you can put that same creative effort into giving your husband some form of satisfaction. Give him something tangible that he can go back into this marriage with his head held high. Think about it, what can you sacrifice or have sacrificed that would make DrMatt say "OK, I can spend the rest of my life with her, even after her heinous crime against me". Is "I'll be a good girl from now on" enough?



Mrs_Mathias said:


> We have discussed him having a free pass, we are working on filling out our divorce papers. But the fact is - no WS can EVER make up for what they have done to BS.


Frankly, I am of the opinion that allowing DrMatt to divorce you is a good idea. I think you should compete for him on a level playing field, against competition. It puts you in the same spot you had him in several weeks ago. That would be a real sacrifice on your part.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Here’s our basic relationship history:

Met at age 19/20, I felt an instant “spark” but not so much for him. We became very close friends almost immediately while he was going through his first divorce. We each dated other people for a year or two, and then became “friends with benefits” for about 5 months – for me, I knew I was in love with him and told myself he loved me too but was just afraid of that relationship. 

We split up for a bit while he dealt with figuring out what he really felt for me. I slept with 2 other men during this break – my sexual experience was very limited, I had many friends who enjoyed “casual sex” and I didn’t really understand how it worked. So I tried it. It was not for me.

Matt and I got back together and it was different right away. Definitely finally the real relationship we had been kind of fighting/avoiding/hiding from. We were 21/22, dated for a while and then moved in together for a year before I left for grad school. Matt proposed before I left, and we spent a year in a long-distance relationship while we planned the wedding. It was a tough year for both of us. 

Matt moved down to where I was going to school and started grad school himself. We were married later that fall, when we were 25/26. I finished school, started working for an opera company, while he finished his school. He got a faculty job a few hours away, so I quit my job and we packed and moved. Originally I was going to try to work from home for 3 weeks of the month and then spend a week in the opera office, but that changed when I was offered an adjunct teaching position for one class at the same school, and then became a substitute teacher for the music program while the main instructor fought cancer. It was never my intention to teach, I have no classes or background in it – all of my degrees are performance related. But there are no other options in my field in our area, so it was a blessing for me to have that kind of work.

I think things were good for us until approximately 3-4 years ago. Gradually, we started doing less and less together, and became more independent in our activities and leisure time. I started working more, and helping with a local community theater. Matt was enjoying his hobbies and art. I don’t think either of us really noticed at first the distance that was growing. Before my 2nd summer in NYC, Matt said that he was really unhappy in our relationship – that he felt I came home a zombie and gave all my passion to my work/theater. I was shocked, and had no idea he felt that way. We discussed how to work on that, I felt it was a little bit of a two-way street at that point – there were nights when I was home that he would disappear upstairs in to his art room before I could even set my stuff down from walking in the door with him.

I left for my trip, and we found out a few weeks later that I was pregnant. I think that brought us together in many ways, and also hid our underlying issues in many ways at the same time. We were very close during my pregnancy, focused on this new experience and sharing it. It was a wonderful time. After our son was born, we continued our closeness. He came to work with me for the first 6 months of his life, so I could maintain breastfeeding and time with him. I am a big believer in babywearing, and would have him with me in lectures, rehearsals, out of town travel, pretty much everything for the first part of his life. I think Matt enjoyed this too, but it was pretty overwhelming for us as a couple to have a baby at such a late point in our relationship. I know it had started a little before our son was born, but I’m also fairly certain this was a big point in losing track of each other as “people” and not just parents/spouses. 

As our son got bigger/more active, I couldn’t take him with me as much. Matt was a big help in allowing me time for my rehearsals, etc. My parents would also travel with me sometimes so that Matt could have time alone and my son could see me during longer out-of-town shows. 

This past year has been the rockiest, obviously. I was dealing with a new colleague at work who is relatively incompetent, and therefore, a much greater amount of my time and energy was needed to accomplish the same basic level of performance that I had been used to having in my job. My sister was going through divorce, my mother was exceptionally distraught/critical of her situation, and it always turned into compliments regarding Matt/backhanded insults towards me. At least, that’s how I started to feel. I felt I had so many people relying on me at work – students whose world was turned upside down by the staffing change, who looked to me to “save” their college experience, to make sure that they were getting what they needed to progress in their field. In one year, I had gone from being a faculty member of a nationally award winning collegiate program to creating productions that were less than middle school level, in my estimation. It was crushing and I was desperately trying to hold together the pieces, and dealing with my own sadness at the loss of my colleague.

I just fell into “survival mode”. What do I need to exist through my day? How can I make progress on all the necessary pieces? My relationship with Matt became more non-existent, and I didn’t even really know it was happening. I stopped talking to him about my stress and problems with work, because my mother’s words were in my head, and I projected my own negativity about not being home onto Matt. Mostly, he was quietly going about life, but there were times I could tell he was stressed/unhappy, and I didn’t know what to say. I wasn’t spending time on “extra” stuff – but my regular contractual obligations were suddenly so much more demanding and I didn’t know what to do about it. I’ve always kind of subscribed to an “if you’re not going to change something, don’t complain” type mentality, I saw no option to change anything in my current situation, so I didn’t talk to Matt.

But I did talk to OM. He had been at the school during our successful years, and saw the rapid disintegration of all that I’d worked on. He was going through his own issues with GF’s drug addiction, and that was something that also brought us together, as we worked to help her face her problem. I didn’t know we were so emotionally connected, because I had as much interaction and even more personal conversation from other students/former students. It just crept up on me.

After D-Day #1, Matt and I read Not Just Friends, and I really recognized what I had done – shutting down opportunities for conversation/emotional support from Matt, and giving it instead from OM. Matt has admitted to being passive-aggressive in some of his dealings with me, and that was another difficult factor for us. I wanted to know he’d miss me when I was going to be gone, and he would reply with “I’ll be too busy working on my own stuff.” After a series of evenings where I was gone last winter, Matt commented that “Things are easier without you around,” because our son was acting out, wanting attention. That really just shut down the last of me. I didn’t know how to change my work situation – I just had to get through those projects I was obligated to, and I believed he really felt that to be true. So I essentially removed myself the rest of the way. The hardest part, is hearing after the fact that he really wanted me around more, was thinking about me and missing me, but couldn’t say that because he was frustrated in the moment.

Even though I continued the affair with OM after a 5 week NC period, I have genuinely been evaluating Matt’s and my past relationship as part of R/false R over the last four months. I see so much more where our communication and attention to each other as people and making time for us as a couple ate away at our bond. I know why I put those communication walls up between us. 

I hate myself for what I’ve done to us, and I hate the affair and all my choices over the last 6 months. But I am SO much better equipped to recognize and prevent this breakdown from happening again. I am much more cognizant of relationship dynamics, boundaries, walls and windows as it were. I know not only do I love Matt, but I genuinely like him as a person, and just stopped interacting with that person. It’s absolute sh1t that this awareness may have come too late after I inflicted all this pain.


----------



## turnera

The Middleman said:


> Mrs Mathias: Have you given any thought on how you you are going try to compensate DrMathias for all the pain he has been through or maybe find a way to level the playing field with him? So far all I'm hearing is: "I'll be a good girl from now on".


 Funny. That's not all I'M hearing.


----------



## The Middleman

turnera said:


> Funny. That's not all I'M hearing.


That's what I heard.


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> Frankly, I am of the opinion that allowing DrMatt to divorce you is a good idea. I think you should compete for him on a level playing field, against competition. It puts you in the same spot you had him in several weeks ago. That would be a real sacrifice on your part.


He's mentioned he already has another offer so competition is happening. How do you possibly level the playing field??? Can't be measured.


----------



## The Middleman

Wazza said:


> He's mentioned he already has another offer so competition is happening. How do you possibly level the playing field??? Can't be measured.


As a single man legally, he can meet, date, get to know and have sex with other women. He might meet women who are more "centered" and more intone with his current line of thinking and moral philosophy. If he does, Mrs Mathias would essentially be competing for DrMatts affections. Will she be able to win him over outside the safety of a legal marriage on a level playing field. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> As a single man legally, he can meet, date, get to know and have sex with other women. He might meet women who are more "centered" and more intone with his current line of thinking and moral philosophy. If he does, Mrs Mathias would essentially be competing for DrMatts affections. Will she be able to win him over outside the safety of a legal marriage on a level playing field. That's all I'm saying.


Lol. He can legally do all those things as a married man too.
They have history, good and bad, and a child. None of that can be erased. The playing field can never be level.


----------



## Pluto2

I agree with Wazza, there is no way to level the playing field, and having a free pass is jut a stupid idea, IMO. In a relationship riddled with infidelity why on earth would introducing more make anything better. Matt has demonstrated he is not vengeful, despite multiple provocations. This is not something that can be fixed in two weeks, if at all.


----------



## TCSRedhead

There is no way to compensate or level the playing field unfortunately. The damage is done, no need to create further damage. 

Regardless of whether they reconcile or not, they will need to keep a civil relationship to parent their son.


----------



## cpacan

Whether a free pass works or not, depends completely on the specific situation. 
It worked for us, creating a better mutual understanding and winning my self confidence back. Also stopped discussions about open marriage or not.


----------



## turnera

Mrs M, without going back to reread everything, the biggest strike against you in this popular court is that you lied at DDay #1 and trickle truthed. Is that true? What is your version? And your excuse?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> Mrs M, without going back to reread everything, the biggest strike against you in this popular court is that you lied at DDay #1 and trickle truthed. Is that true? What is your version? And your excuse?


I did lie at D-Day #1 and then resumed the affair after 5 weeks of NC after OM showed up at my office. My intention was for honest R, but I didn't maintain that NC, and I fell back into old habits after seeing him. I trickle truthed last week from Saturday to Wednesday, with full disclosure on Thursday.

There is no version, and no excuse, other than panic, and a habit of lying at that point. When you make a mental block, that my husband could never possibly forgive "____________" it's incredibly hard to convince yourself that honesty is really the only hope you have. In the case of my last lie, I knew he knew the answer to the question. I could tell by the way he asked. But I lied before my brain could even kick in to stop me. Like an exaggerated fight or flight reflex, and lies were my flight.

It's inexcusable. I just have to hope it's not unforgivable.


----------



## turnera

Thanks. And what's been done to ensure OM can never appear again?


----------



## CH

turnera said:


> Thanks. And what's been done to ensure OM can never appear again?


OM moved away and didn't want the drama associated with her and her husband.


----------



## Kasler

cheatinghubby said:


> OM moved away and didn't want the drama associated with her and her husband.


And within 24 hours of OM moving away she tearfully calls matt to reconcile. 

That can of worms needs to be opened, and I still don't think she could not be attracted to OM if he was ever around again.


----------



## turnera

I'd like to hear it from Mrs M.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Mrs M, without going back to reread everything, the biggest strike against you in this popular court is that you lied at DDay #1 and trickle truthed. Is that true? What is your version? And your excuse?


Actually, I would kind of rate cheating in the first place up there in big strikes......


----------



## AnnieAsh

Mrs M, I responded to your PM. Hugs to you!

Annie


----------



## SkaterDad

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did lie at D-Day #1 and then resumed the affair after 5 weeks of NC after OM showed up at my office. My intention was for honest R, but I didn't maintain that NC, and I fell back into old habits after seeing him. I trickle truthed last week from Saturday to Wednesday, with full disclosure on Thursday.
> 
> There is no version, and no excuse, other than panic, and a habit of lying at that point. When you make a mental block, that my husband could never possibly forgive "____________" it's incredibly hard to convince yourself that honesty is really the only hope you have. In the case of my last lie, I knew he knew the answer to the question. I could tell by the way he asked. *But I lied before my brain could even kick in to stop me. Like an exaggerated fight or flight reflex, and lies were my flight.*
> 
> It's inexcusable. I just have to hope it's not unforgivable.


That right there is the single most destructive thing. I knew my stbx was lying. I knew there were photos, I knew it was deeper than what she told me. When it did all hit the fan, and then a second time? the WS can' t hide it, they never did. I'm not bashing, at least you can somewhat recognize that now. My stbx is refusing, and still blaming. And it becomes almost comical, but tragic, and not a romanticized Shakespearian play. a pathetic, low life of your wife, empty, yet full of "love" for the OM, feeling sorry, sorry because the lie is sorry, and sorry because they got caught. Mine would have been shacking up in a hotel, and honestly I should have let her, and sent flowers. Selfish, low and cowardly. Even my 7 yo isn't fooled. But I'm not here to bash, just adding the 2 cents of being brutally honest when it hits the fan. because either way the BS won't believe you (collective WS's) and if you TT and lie, that goes on for a long time, I am living it from her first EA, and who knows what i don't. 

Maybe one day I will be "lucky" enough to get the actual truth, if I'm around and care to believe it. Keep on your path, if my stbx had half the grit you, Annie, TCS and a few others did, I would have one happy kid and some tough years ahead. Right now i have a distraught child, a single income/single parent upside down mortgage and a stbx who needs to "find" herself. Put in the time, I don't really feel your H should stick around, but since there is a kid, you need to pull out the stops!

Be strong and do it for yourself, it is the only thing keeping me together being on the other side of this.


----------



## Shaggy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did lie at D-Day #1 and then resumed the affair after 5 weeks of NC after OM showed up at my office. My intention was for honest R, but I didn't maintain that NC, and I fell back into old habits after seeing him. I trickle truthed last week from Saturday to Wednesday, with full disclosure on Thursday.
> 
> There is no version, and no excuse, other than panic, and a habit of lying at that point. When you make a mental block, that my husband could never possibly forgive "____________" it's incredibly hard to convince yourself that honesty is really the only hope you have. In the case of my last lie, I knew he knew the answer to the question. I could tell by the way he asked. But I lied before my brain could even kick in to stop me. Like an exaggerated fight or flight reflex, and lies were my flight.
> 
> It's inexcusable. I just have to hope it's not unforgivable.


The fact that you had DD #1 and read Not Just Friends and recognized that you were doing what you were, is what says to me that R isn't going to be possible. 

When you resume the affair after all that you chose it fully aware and fully informed of what you where doing, and what Matt would do. He told you, he would not be a cuckold.

You have full disclosure of the situation, and of the cost, and you willingly, even eagerly chose the OM and the PA.

And that's why I don't think R will be possible because Matt knows all that too, and no matter how good of a girl you appear to be, no matter how much show effort he sees, he will know that when it came down to the wire, you consciously chose the affair over him.

It wasn't an act of momentary passion. It was a controlled choice. It wasn't the fog - you had been out of contact of 5 weeks. You where reading and educating yourself, and working on R. 

so when you resumed the affair, it was a clear cut decision and Matt and your son lost.

That is what you and Matt are facing as the real moment the marriage ended, and if there could ever be an R, that is the thing you have to atone for.

I'm sorry that I don't have any advice on how to atone for that choice and that moment other than you both need to face the harsh truth of it. There is no romance here, this is cold harsh truth of a choice you made.

I would like nothing more here than for your son to have a complete happy family to grow up in. All kids deserve that.

But for Matt to take you back as his wife, he will need to accept that when given the choice you in the light of day chose the OM.


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> When you resume the affair after all that you chose it fully aware and fully informed of what you where doing, and what Matt would do. He told you, he would not be a cuckold.


This is a big one, Mrs M. I'm not sure he should agree to R, given that. It shows a big problem with your basic character. How do you plan to overcome that?


----------



## Kasler

^ Yep thats the crux. There was no fog, this wasn't just selfishness to the extreme. It was a conscious choice and decision on her part after more than a month of NC and knowing just how damaging affairs can be, that she went to OM.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> Thanks. And what's been done to ensure OM can never appear again?


I have written NC letters to him, his family, and the toxic friends who enabled us. Passwords to my existing Skype accounts have been changed and are held by my husband. All other passwords to email are his knowledge. I have deactivated my FB account. I am researching keylogger and tracking software for my phone and home/office computers.

He can physically appear, I suppose at any time, but he has moved to another city approximately 90 minutes away and does not have his own car. I am also in a much different place emotionally than I was the last time he appeared, and I think more prepared to maintain NC/inform my BH.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> This is a big one, Mrs M. I'm not sure he should agree to R, given that. It shows a big problem with your basic character. How do you plan to overcome that?


I am attempting to overcome this through individual counseling, communication, transparency, and better support systems. When OM appeared before, I had read NJF, and paid attention to the "how" the EA began, and was maintaining better boundaries that way, but was also not talking to anyone in my life really about the affair. And the people I was talking to (therapist, Matt, 1 other friend) I was not giving the whole truth to, just maintaining what I had admitted on D-Day #1.

So OM appears, is distraught, my instinct to comfort and latent emotional connection are all still huge factors. I can't/won't talk to anyone because I am already on the path of dishonesty regarding the situation. I slippery slope myself with rationalizations - I'll just drive by his work and see if he's ok, I'll just give him something to read so he's not bored, etc. All the while I was just feeding my need to be necessary to someone.

I know I am much stronger and different after this final exposure and being honest about all that transpired. There is nothing for me to cling to, because I know Matt can and will walk away at any time, and is in the process of doing so. I am communicating much differently and with a wider variety of people, and have already faced an attempt from OM at breaking NC and contacted my BH immediately.

In short, I am attempting to make sure that I have no "outs" - no hidden thoughts, emotions, or activities. Resuming the affair was a hugely wrong and hurtful choice, but I can look back at it and see how I put myself into/maintained a vulnerable position regarding OM. I am doing everything possible to make sure that is not the case now.


----------



## warlock07

Mrs...Please revisit your decision to R after some time being separated.. You have no business being in a relationship with Matt currently.. You shouldn't trust your emotions now.. Neither should Matt. Give some time to clear your head


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am attempting to overcome this through individual counseling, communication, transparency, and better support systems. When OM appeared before, I had read NJF, and paid attention to the "how" the EA began, and was maintaining better boundaries that way, but was also not talking to anyone in my life really about the affair. *And the people I was talking to (therapist, Matt, 1 other friend) I was not giving the whole truth to, just maintaining what I had admitted on D-Day #1.*
> 
> So OM appears, is distraught, my instinct to comfort and latent emotional connection are all still huge factors. I can't/won't talk to anyone because I am already on the path of dishonesty regarding the situation. I slippery slope myself with rationalizations - I'll just drive by his work and see if he's ok, I'll just give him something to read so he's not bored, etc. All the while I was just feeding my need to be necessary to someone.


Was NC actually NC? Wasn't you in contact with people who "knew"? Mutual friends with OM? Mutual friends with GF? Those who helped you to plan the latest meeting? Any window to OM's life before she showed up at yout offices's door? Did OM knew about how things were going on in your marriage? How?

How the people who knew learned about it, when?
I'm sure with time many, many people knew, from you, from OM, from GF, gossip... I assume you were perfectly aware of it. Sooner or later the news eventually would find it's way to Matt. How much thought did you give to it? Did you ever discussed it with OM, with anyone?

I think you are still in denial on how things just "happened", still dissociating yourself from the cold, deliberate decision of sacrificing your marriage, your sons stability to the altar of your lust for OM. The consequences were crealry unvoidable. You had to know, somehow.
When you talk about a better emotional state... can you elaborate? Is it you realized you valued the marriage more than you though earlier? Is it you never believed Matt would dump you?
From afar what appears is a wayward who squeezed all the time she had with her AP until he left town, which was known in advance. How strong do you feel now? Do you think if OM comes back to town you could resist it?

I'm sending you strength for your IC meeting. It seems Matt is joining you. It's going to be hard. I hope it turns for the better whatever it means.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am attempting to overcome this through individual counseling, communication, transparency, and better support systems. When OM appeared before, I had read NJF, and paid attention to the "how" the EA began, and was maintaining better boundaries that way, but was also not talking to anyone in my life really about the affair. And the people I was talking to (therapist, Matt, 1 other friend) I was not giving the whole truth to, just maintaining what I had admitted on D-Day #1.
> 
> So OM appears, is distraught, my instinct to comfort and latent emotional connection are all still huge factors. I can't/won't talk to anyone because I am already on the path of dishonesty regarding the situation. I slippery slope myself with rationalizations - I'll just drive by his work and see if he's ok, I'll just give him something to read so he's not bored, etc. All the while I was just feeding my need to be necessary to someone.
> 
> I know I am much stronger and different after this final exposure and being honest about all that transpired. There is nothing for me to cling to, because I know Matt can and will walk away at any time, and is in the process of doing so. I am communicating much differently and with a wider variety of people, and have already faced an attempt from OM at breaking NC and contacted my BH immediately.
> 
> In short, I am attempting to make sure that I have no "outs" - no hidden thoughts, emotions, or activities. Resuming the affair was a hugely wrong and hurtful choice, but I can look back at it and see how I put myself into/maintained a vulnerable position regarding OM. I am doing everything possible to make sure that is not the case now.


Not giving the whole truth. Hmmmmmmm...should you rather have said "I was continuing to blatantly lie"?

Not trying to beat you up here, but until you can accept and admit to Mat that you blatantly lied and it was a disaster...and until you accept that your deception has put your marriage and your son's secure upbringing at risk....then the danger is you will lie again.

You could talk to the OM about things you couldn't discuss with Mat. Why? I think it is because you could be open with him while you had to preserve the lie with Mat. And the result was to damage the intimacy with your husband. You reconcile and lie, you will fvck up again. You divorce, meet someone else and lie, you will fvck up again. You are old enough that you should be starting to see this repeating pattern in people you know.

I just hope that, whatever fancy reasons, childhood traumas and so on come out in your counselling, you don't lose sight of the simple truth how big a mess you have caused by the simple path of dishonesty. I don't care why you lied, you lied.


----------



## Wazza

Wazza said:


> Not giving the whole truth. Hmmmmmmm...should you rather have said "I was continuing to blatantly lie"?
> 
> Not trying to beat you up here, but until you can accept and admit to Mat that you blatantly lied and it was a disaster...and until you accept that your deception has put your marriage and your son's secure upbringing at risk....then the danger is you will lie again.
> 
> You could talk to the OM about things you couldn't discuss with Mat. Why? I think it is because you could be open with him while you had to preserve the lie with Mat. And the result was to damage the intimacy with your husband. You reconcile and lie, you will fvck up again. You divorce, meet someone else and lie, you will fvck up again. You are old enough that you should be starting to see this repeating pattern in people you know.
> 
> I just hope that, whatever fancy reasons, childhood traumas and so on come out in your counselling, you don't lose sight of the simple truth how big a mess you have caused by the simple path of dishonesty. I don't care why you lied, you lied.


By the way...the good news which is the other side of this...if you can really clean up the bullsh1t you brought into your relationship....well that is how reconciliation becomes possible.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, the sutbleties with which a cheater skates the truth and avoids complicity is a slippery slope and we see it ALL THE TIME. It's a pschological 'trick' of a selfish person who sugarcoats (to themselves) the enormity of their choices, so they can look themselves in the mirror. Subtleties like "I didn't give the whole truth" rather than "yeah, I lied to him to protect my stash."

Until you have had the soul-crushing realization that you are now lower than dirt and unworthy, it's hard to take what you say with much appreciation. Being really brutal and blunt with YOUR seflishness here would be a good place to start.


----------



## jim123

Wazza said:


> Not giving the whole truth. Hmmmmmmm...should you rather have said "I was continuing to blatantly lie"?
> 
> Not trying to beat you up here, but until you can accept and admit to Mat that you blatantly lied and it was a disaster...and until you accept that your deception has put your marriage and your son's secure upbringing at risk....then the danger is you will lie again.
> 
> You could talk to the OM about things you couldn't discuss with Mat. Why? I think it is because you could be open with him while you had to preserve the lie with Mat. And the result was to damage the intimacy with your husband. You reconcile and lie, you will fvck up again. You divorce, meet someone else and lie, you will fvck up again. You are old enough that you should be starting to see this repeating pattern in people you know.
> 
> I just hope that, whatever fancy reasons, childhood traumas and so on come out in your counselling, you don't lose sight of the simple truth how big a mess you have caused by the simple path of dishonesty. I don't care why you lied, you lied.


She lied to the MC, IC and anyone who would listen. I remember in her first post where she said she was confused and it was the only way to end her confusion. That really stuck with me. I do not think she thought for one minute that Matt would act the way he has. 

In many ways, it was not wrong in her mind. Maybe she assumed Matt is just lucky to have her and he would just welcome her back.

I have no idea how IC is going to work given she lied from months. That tends not to go well.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> Not giving the whole truth. Hmmmmmmm...should you rather have said "I was continuing to blatantly lie"?
> 
> Not trying to beat you up here, but until you can accept and admit to Mat that you blatantly lied and it was a disaster...and until you accept that your deception has put your marriage and your son's secure upbringing at risk....then the danger is you will lie again.
> 
> You could talk to the OM about things you couldn't discuss with Mat. Why? I think it is because you could be open with him while you had to preserve the lie with Mat. And the result was to damage the intimacy with your husband. You reconcile and lie, you will fvck up again. You divorce, meet someone else and lie, you will fvck up again. You are old enough that you should be starting to see this repeating pattern in people you know.
> 
> I just hope that, whatever fancy reasons, childhood traumas and so on come out in your counselling, you don't lose sight of the simple truth how big a mess you have caused by the simple path of dishonesty. I don't care why you lied, you lied.


I completely agree. She is in no shape or form capable of being in a stable relationship.

This down sizing she does, she does it automatically and isn't willing to get to the bottom of why. 

Shes already rearing up dramatic rationalizations, and this is just sad to see honestly. 

Mods seriously need to sticky her 1st thread as it is a goldmine of insight into the mindset of an incredibly selfish and deluded wayward.


----------



## lionsguy22

Not cool. You lucky he stuck around. I wouldnt have.


----------



## doc_martin

"And the people I was talking to (therapist, Matt, 1 other friend) I was not giving the whole truth to, just maintaining what I had admitted on D-Day #1."

I really think this is an issue for many waywards. As long as the lies exist, there exists a wedge preventing true R. whether conscious or unconscious, they must maintain that wall. It can never come down and true intimacy cannot be built. And in some weird way, it lets them continue thinking that what they are doing is "not so bad" or "okay".


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> I completely agree. She is in no shape or form capable of being in a stable relationship.
> 
> This down sizing she does, she does it automatically and isn't willing to get to the bottom of why.
> 
> Shes already rearing up dramatic rationalizations, and this is just sad to see honestly.
> 
> Mods seriously need to sticky her 1st thread as it is a goldmine of insight into the mindset of an incredibly selfish and deluded wayward.


It does appear to be automatic...that is why I called her on it. She seemed to be preparing to minimise her crime.

To be fair, she needs to work on herself and it takes time. Too early to pronounce her a lost cause in my view. I'd love for our words to challenge her to do better, but hate for her to despair and give up.


----------



## Broken at 20

Wazza said:


> It does appear to be automatic...that is why I called her on it. She seemed to be preparing to minimise her crime.
> 
> To be fair, she needs to work on herself and it takes time. Too early to pronounce her a lost cause in my view. I'd love for our words to challenge her to do better, but hate for her to despair and give up.


The problem is, she is a theater person. 

And I wonder if this is just an act to her? 

And she never answered my question in her old thread. 
Which would she be more afraid of giving up? Her career, and everything with it, or her husband and family?

Because so far, I think I know what the answer she'll give us is. 
But I don't think she will be 100% behind what she tells us.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks"

Run, Matt, run....


----------



## cpacan

The problem with lies is, that if you lie once, you need to tell another one to support the original lie. Soon you end up in a spin of dishonesty where you find it difficult to separate the lies from the truth.

From my own experience, you need too both make it safe for the WS to tell the truth and make it crystal clear that one more lie, even a small one, will terminate the relationship emediatly.

It took me months to realize the dynamic in this, and now it seems to work. She has not lied to me in 10 months as far as I can tell.


----------



## lionsguy22

The Cro-Magnon said:


> "You can't teach an old dog new tricks"
> 
> Run, Matt, run....


Anyone have link to his thread?!?!?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, it's been a productive few days. My IC appointment Friday went well. I laid everything out to the counselor, and I feel more positive about going forward with that. Matt sat in and just listened. I was exceptionally grateful for his presence.

I can see how my word usage makes it seem like I am trying to minimize.... I don't feel that I am, but when I use the stronger phrases and negative descriptors that I feel/think inside, then it comes across as dramatic or insincere. Trying to find a way to accurately convey myself is a challenge right now. I hope it improves, as one of my therapy assignments is journaling.

I am 2 weeks into NC, and as hard as the fallout from my affair and continued lying has been, there's an odd sense of relief and hope mixed in. Matt and I have communicated more honestly than we have in quite some time, especially over the last week or so. I am trying to be very zen with each day, enjoying the positive moments with Matt and our son, focused on really trying to know myself as I am, and not trying to borrow stress from the future or past. 

I am finding myself astonished each day with how little thought/foresight I had in the affair. Not only was I not thinking about repercussions/damage/pain for everyone involved, but I was not thinking about OM's motivations/agenda with me pre-affair and on. We talked last night about interactions with people, and I really have never considered that someone would have an "agenda" in how they interact with me. I ascribe my own thoughts/motivations to people I interact with, especially if I feel I "know" them. I'm not sure how I got this far in life without recognizing such a basic concept.

I don't want to become jaded/cynical, but I feel really stupid for not acknowledging something like this and being more wary. It's going to be hard to find a balance there... I find myself uneasy with basic interactions with colleagues/students now, and I am also uncertain as to my own motivations/agenda. I doubt and question everything except my interactions ith my husband and son. Those feel more connected and real than anything in the world around me. Maybe because I feel truly safe with both of them, and the honesty with which Matt and I are sharing right now is a huge factor in that.

I always thought I was smart and intuitive where people were concerned. When I began therapy in July, my counselor asked me to mention some of my strengths, and that and compassion were two that popped in my head. Now I am facing that likely neither of those is true, or at least, compassion for my husband is something I completely disregarded during the affair in pursuit of my own selfish wants. I am NOT trying to minimize my choices in pursuing the affair and continuing it, but I can see now how my ignorance in considering motivations added to my emotional vulnerability and false sense of shared condition with OM. Something for me to continue to evaluate.

Another issue on my mind is better understanding my selfishness and it's manifestation. I am struggling with the feeling of "responsibility/obligation" I had toward OM, and my students/job in general. It was pointed out in my thread earlier that my feelings like that, and "giving" in those circumstances are really the epitome of selfishness because I m doing for the ego boost, etc. How can I ever know the degree of truth in that? I'm sure Mother Teresa felt good helping people. (I'm not equating myself to her in any way, btw, just an example of a well known giving person.). And clearly, with OM, there's a huge difference between feeling responsible for his life circumstance after D-Day #1 and fvcking him. I definitely had some clearly selfish motivations as the affair resumed/progressed. But that sense of obligation was a big slippery slope for me after he broke NC. 

My NC effort was definitely not strong enough back then. Physically and communication-wise I had been holding on well, but I had to interact with people who knew him (but not about the affair) and asked about him regularly, especially when school resumed and he wasn't working with me again. And my mental NC was not great, especially when Matt would want to discuss my feelings for OM as an "antenna" and how could I know I wouldn't still be "in love" and missing him in 20 years.

I'm rambling at this point... Just spilling out some thoughts and realizations from the last few days. Thanks for reading and for any thoughts you have to share. Both Matt and I are amazed at the time and thought relative strangers are willing to put into our lives. This whole experience was so isolating for us, especially as we attempted to navigate our first R/false R. We read a book and then tried to continue on, but both of us made a lot of mistakes and didn't really understand the importance of many things. It is a different road now, for sure, and I don't know the destination. (R? D? Both?). But I am comfortable saying that we are both grateful to be sharing the journey with people who have traveled similarly. Every day, I try to be aware of all I am thankful for. Please know that as hard as this is for me sometimes, TAM is on that list.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, it's been a productive few days. My IC appointment Friday went well. I laid everything out to the counselor, and I feel more positive about going forward with that. Matt sat in and just listened. I was exceptionally grateful for his presence.
> 
> I can see how my word usage makes it seem like I am trying to minimize.... I don't feel that I am, but when I use the stronger phrases and negative descriptors that I feel/think inside, then it comes across as dramatic or insincere. Trying to find a way to accurately convey myself is a challenge right now. I hope it improves, as one of my therapy assignments is journaling.
> 
> I am 2 weeks into NC, and as hard as the fallout from my affair and continued lying has been, there's an odd sense of relief and hope mixed in. Matt and I have communicated more honestly than we have in quite some time, especially over the last week or so. I am trying to be very zen with each day, enjoying the positive moments with Matt and our son, focused on really trying to know myself as I am, and not trying to borrow stress from the future or past.
> 
> I am finding myself astonished each day with how little thought/foresight I had in the affair. Not only was I not thinking about repercussions/damage/pain for everyone involved, but I was not thinking about OM's motivations/agenda with me pre-affair and on. We talked last night about interactions with people, and I really have never considered that someone would have an "agenda" in how they interact with me. I ascribe my own thoughts/motivations to people I interact with, especially if I feel I "know" them. I'm not sure how I got this far in life without recognizing such a basic concept.
> 
> I don't want to become jaded/cynical, but I feel really stupid for not acknowledging something like this and being more wary. It's going to be hard to find a balance there... I find myself uneasy with basic interactions with colleagues/students now, and I am also uncertain as to my own motivations/agenda. I doubt and question everything except my interactions ith my husband and son. Those feel more connected and real than anything in the world around me. Maybe because I feel truly safe with both of them, and the honesty with which Matt and I are sharing right now is a huge factor in that.
> 
> I always thought I was smart and intuitive where people were concerned. When I began therapy in July, my counselor asked me to mention some of my strengths, and that and compassion were two that popped in my head. Now I am facing that likely neither of those is true, or at least, compassion for my husband is something I completely disregarded during the affair in pursuit of my own selfish wants. I am NOT trying to minimize my choices in pursuing the affair and continuing it, but I can see now how my ignorance in considering motivations added to my emotional vulnerability and false sense of shared condition with OM. Something for me to continue to evaluate.
> 
> Another issue on my mind is better understanding my selfishness and it's manifestation. I am struggling with the feeling of "responsibility/obligation" I had toward OM, and my students/job in general. It was pointed out in my thread earlier that my feelings like that, and "giving" in those circumstances are really the epitome of selfishness because I m doing for the ego boost, etc. How can I ever know the degree of truth in that? I'm sure Mother Teresa felt good helping people. (I'm not equating myself to her in any way, btw, just an example of a well known giving person.). And clearly, with OM, there's a huge difference between feeling responsible for his life circumstance after D-Day #1 and fvcking him. I definitely had some clearly selfish motivations as the affair resumed/progressed. But that sense of obligation was a big slippery slope for me after he broke NC.
> 
> My NC effort was definitely not strong enough back then. Physically and communication-wise I had been holding on well, but I had to interact with people who knew him (but not about the affair) and asked about him regularly, especially when school resumed and he wasn't working with me again. And my mental NC was not great, especially when Matt would want to discuss my feelings for OM as an "antenna" and how could I know I wouldn't still be "in love" and missing him in 20 years.
> 
> I'm rambling at this point... Just spilling out some thoughts and realizations from the last few days. Thanks for reading and for any thoughts you have to share. Both Matt and I are amazed at the time and thought relative strangers are willing to put into our lives. This whole experience was so isolating for us, especially as we attempted to navigate our first R/false R. We read a book and then tried to continue on, but both of us made a lot of mistakes and didn't really understand the importance of many things. It is a different road now, for sure, and I don't know the destination. (R? D? Both?). But I am comfortable saying that we are both grateful to be sharing the journey with people who have traveled similarly. Every day, I try to be aware of all I am thankful for. Please know that as hard as this is for me sometimes, TAM is on that list.


Rambling is good, no need to apologise for it.

Trying to come across accurately with your words.....my suggestion is not to worry about that, but rather to just write what you feel. Firstly because, frankly, everyone is going to suspect everything you say anyway. It will take a while to build any sort of trust, including with Mat. But secondly, the whole problem with your original thread was that it was focused on the impression you make on us, not on being truthful. So stay away from any effort to make an impression and just say what you think. We can make better suggestions then, and also Mat may well recognise it and it may mean something to him.


----------



## Acabado

Sound a little more centered. Glad to hear it.

Another question more is, (seems I can't stop pilling up)... you are not a teacher, never were formed to it, your education was about your artistic side. I'd like to know what kind of boundaries you had with your teachers back then.


----------



## lionsguy22

Where is Matt's thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

lionsguy22 said:


> Where is Matt's thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Search user DrMathias


----------



## turnera

Mrs M, i know you get reamed a lot but I sense a realness in your writing. I can usually tell the difference when someone is self centered and writes what will benefit them as opposed to writing the truth. I think Mr M sees that in you, too. I think you'll do fine.


----------



## Wazza

lionsguy22 said:


> Where is Matt's thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61098-third-strike.html

And Mrs M's original thread, which she deleted but then asked the mods to reinstate:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61164-three-strikes-mrs.html


----------



## lionsguy22

I hope Matt gets a divorce. This girls a liar and still cares about OM. According to the om's gf he told her ww was lame in the sack to boot. Even though she takes it bareback from Om. Yuck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

lionsguy22 said:


> I hope Matt gets a divorce. This girls a liar and still cares about OM. According to the om's gf he told her ww was lame in the sack to boot. Even though she takes it bareback from Om. Yuck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Were both of those admitted to in one of the threads somewhere?


----------



## lionsguy22

larry.gray said:


> Were both of those admitted to in one of the threads somewhere?


See Matt's thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

> really have never considered that someone would have an "agenda" in how they interact with me.


Oh, Mrs M! I have been exactly where you were!

My wife told me she was going to have an affair, but that she still loved me and would come back to me. And, true to her word, that's exactly what happened.

But I was heart-broken. I began to self-medicate with alcohol and, through a hobby group, fell into an EA with a woman. It was seconds away from going physical (really seconds away, I am not exaggerating) when I came to my senses.

It transpired that the OW had targeted me as she had an agenda, in that she wanted me to be a father for her two children. I, apparently, was a good catch in that respect, as I am seen as a good, steady and kindly man.


----------



## Tony55

lionsguy22 said:


> I hope Matt gets a divorce. This girls a liar and still cares about OM.


MM still caring about the OM wouldn't be unusual, completely having no feelings at all, this early in the game, would be.

No contact is the key, any breach of NC and it's like an addict taking a shot of heroin, it's starts all over again.

True non-contact isn't as difficult to achieve as some make it out to be, I have an old girlfriend who lives in the same town as me and I bet in the past 20 years I might have seen her twice. 

*NC is broken on purpose, not by accident.*

Over time, if absolute NC is maintained, the feelings will begin to fade at the normal rate that it would fade for everyone else, in fact, I would venture to say, that eventually, the BS will probably think about the other man/woman more often than the WS does, and if that's the case, then it's probably because we tend to remember extremely painful things for a long, long time.

So, if divorce is imminent, then do it for the primary reason, the affair, but don't do it because there are lingering memories, no one can just snap their fingers and make those disappear.

T


----------



## larry.gray

lionsguy22 said:


> See Matt's thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought that Mr. M presumed that was true, but she never fessed up to it.


----------



## MEM2020

MM, 
I can tell you are genuinely are working at this. 

I really believe you are reshaping the past a bit. You deprioritized matt for quite some time. He eventually responded in kind because he was hurt, angry and frustrated. And yet you describe that time frame as one in which you were both guilty of not focusing on the marriage. Matt was only guilty of putting you first and not asserting himself. Eventually he withdrew as anyone would. 

You knew he was upset. You knew he was hurt. You engaged in what I call 'willful incomprehension', because you felt no real compassion for Matt. This lack of compassion was an issue way way before the affair. Until you acknowledge that, you won't fix things.


----------



## Kasler

She could change, but Dr M shouldn't be around during that transition if it happens. At her base she has a plethora of problems, the entirety of which will be in no way solved in a matter of months. If they were to ever give it a shot, Dr M should already be divorced from her and free to do as he wills.


----------



## lionsguy22

larry.gray said:


> I thought that Mr. M presumed that was true, but she never fessed up to it.


No she fessed up to it at least 1 time letting the OM enter her hole with no protection full penis on vagina contact no barrier. Also fessed up to wanting to sleep between them. Admitted she wanted to keep OM part of her life etc. not to mention telling the OM he could have her anyway he wanted so long as he understood he was sharing. 

Then admitted she wanted to make H a cuckhold by keeping relationship with both, after agreeing to NC with OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken at 20

lionsguy22 said:


> No she fessed up to it at least 1 time letting the OM enter her hole with no protection full penis on vagina contact no barrier. Also fessed up to wanting to sleep between them. Admitted she wanted to keep OM part of her life etc. not to mention telling the OM he could have her anyway he wanted so long as he understood he was sharing. Then admitted she wanted to make H a **** hold by keeping relationship with both, after agreeing to NC with OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh...no.....I don't think she did.....


----------



## lionsguy22

Broken at 20 said:


> Uh...no.....I don't think she did.....


If I recall he stated she admitted being drunk it happened and the she had him put condom on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> She could change, but Dr M shouldn't be around during that transition if it happens. At her base she has a plethora of problems, the entirety of which will be in no way solved in a matter of months. If they were to ever give it a shot, Dr M should already be divorced from her and free to do as he wills.


He's certainly free to make his choice. Whether to reconcile is totally up to him. He is free to divorce now if he wants. AFAIK he is in contact with MrsM, but she isn't living there (is that still the case?).

But here's another angle. My wife is my best friend. If she is hurting, and needs help to heal, and I can help her, I want to do that. I don't want to cut her loose.

Of course...the affair clouds that a bit....but I expect the desire to help is still there.


----------



## Wazza

lionsguy22 said:


> No she fessed up to it at least 1 time letting the OM enter her hole with no protection full penis on vagina contact no barrier. Also fessed up to wanting to sleep between them. Admitted she wanted to keep OM part of her life etc. not to mention telling the OM he could have her anyway he wanted so long as he understood he was sharing.
> 
> Then admitted she wanted to make H a cuckhold by keeping relationship with both, after agreeing to NC with OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Each guy has their own limits.

To me, sex is the deal breaker....using a condom or not is incidental.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> He's certainly free to make his choice. Whether to reconcile is totally up to him. He is free to divorce now if he wants. AFAIK he is in contact with MrsM, but she isn't living there (is that still the case?).
> 
> But here's another angle. My wife is my best friend. If she is hurting, and needs help to heal, and I can help her, I want to do that. I don't want to cut her loose.
> 
> Of course...the affair clouds that a bit....but I expect the desire to help is still there.


That just makes you a "fixer". Ever wonder why some men have this tendency to attract the rebounds and the fvck ups like flies to sh!t? Because they're willing to be emotional tampons to these women who dole out meager amounts of sex just to keep them around.

This is exactly how some false R's go. The wife cheats, the husband takes her back, all if forgiven while the husband puts up with all the anger, emotional outbursts, blame shifting etc.

Best friends who betray you are not worthy of being called best friends after you learn of the betrayal, they're not even worthy of being called friends.

If I was the good doctor I would limit my interactions with MrsM to as little as possible.

WS don't feel remorse until they've lost everything. Its not just the WS, its anybody and everybody. If they never face the consequences of their actions, they're never going to change and that's guaranteed.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> Each guy has their own limits.
> 
> To me, sex is the deal breaker....using a condom or not is incidental.


I don't know but the thought of another man's cum in your wife is like the icing on the cake, literally. It would definitely make the pain of betrayal more acute.


----------



## The Middleman

BjornFree said:


> I don't know but the thought of another man's cum in your wife is like the icing on the cake, literally. It would definitely make the pain of betrayal more acute.


:iagree:


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> That just makes you a "fixer". Ever wonder why some men have this tendency to attract the rebounds and the fvck ups like flies to sh!t? Because they're willing to be emotional tampons to these women who dole out meager amounts of sex just to keep them around.
> 
> This is exactly how some false R's go. The wife cheats, the husband takes her back, all if forgiven while the husband puts up with all the anger, emotional outbursts, blame shifting etc.
> 
> Best friends who betray you are not worthy of being called best friends after you learn of the betrayal, they're not even worthy of being called friends.
> 
> If I was the good doctor I would limit my interactions with MrsM to as little as possible.
> 
> WS don't feel remorse until they've lost everything. Its not just the WS, its anybody and everybody. If they never face the consequences of their actions, they're never going to change and that's guaranteed.


No doubt the scenario you describe is true in some cases. It does not describe my marriage or my wife, in any way.If you want to state it as a scenario to watch for I agree. If you want to state it as a universal rule it is wrong.

Everyone fvcks up sometimes. It's a matter of how badly it hurts and whether you can get over it.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> No doubt the scenario you describe is true in some cases. It does not describe my marriage or my wife, in any way.If you want to state it as a scenario to watch for I agree. If you want to state it as a universal rule it is wrong.
> 
> Everyone fvcks up sometimes. It's a matter of how badly it hurts and whether you can get over it.


Its not a universal rule, nor did I describe your marriage or your wife. I suppose my post did come across that way, i apologize.

But this is the norm rather than the exception, something that I've seen far too often.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> He's certainly free to make his choice. Whether to reconcile is totally up to him. He is free to divorce now if he wants. AFAIK he is in contact with MrsM, but she isn't living there (is that still the case?).
> 
> But here's another angle. My wife is my best friend. If she is hurting, and needs help to heal, and I can help her, I want to do that. I don't want to cut her loose.
> 
> Of course...the affair clouds that a bit....but I expect the desire to help is still there.


That just means you're prone to being a fixer

And last I checked best friends don't stab you in the back. If someone betrays me they're bereft of my concern. 

He shouldn't need to waste time R-ing and then once proven false by her unresolved issues, THEN have to get the ball rolling. 

Should start now.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> Its not a universal rule, nor did I describe your marriage or your wife. I suppose my post did come across that way, i apologize.
> 
> But this is the norm rather than the exception, something that I've seen far too often.


Don't want to be argumentative but I want to be clear on the facts and eliminate rhetoric and hyperbole.

We have established it's not universal. Now can we see the statistics to say it is the norm rather than the exception? 

I have no idea what is normal and what is exception, but I have seen many cases of wayward spouses feeling tremendous remorse and really suffering guilt at what they have done...before they lose everything....because they have consciences.

Is MrsM in that camp? No idea....and that is the $64,000,000 question in this thread, for Mat at least.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> Don't want to be argumentative but I want to be clear on the facts and eliminate rhetoric and hyperbole.
> 
> We have established it's not universal. Now can we see the statistics to say it is the norm rather than the exception?
> 
> I have no idea what is normal and what is exception, but I have seen many cases of wayward spouses feeling tremendous remorse and really suffering guilt at what they have done...before they lose everything....because they have consciences.
> 
> Is MrsM in that camp? No idea....and that is the $64,000,000 question in this thread, for Mat at least.


Not because they have a conscience, but because they're about to pay the piper. They had their dance, time to pay the band.

When I have a conscience affected decision, it usually happens Before I do something, not after.

The idea of these waywards innocuously 'realizing the error of their ways' just when their asses are about to get held over the fire is simply ludicrous. 

They realize their BS isn't putting up with their bullsh!t and then they want to change, but when the BS continues to put his/her head in the sand they and their consciences continue to cake eat.

Now thats a fact for ya.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> That just means you're prone to being a fixer
> 
> And last I checked best friends don't stab you in the back. If someone betrays me they're bereft of my concern.
> 
> He shouldn't need to waste time R-ing and then once proven false by her unresolved issues, THEN have to get the ball rolling.
> 
> Should start now.


Gee, I'm glad you guys aren't my friends 

Prone to being a fixer, I can accept. I will not stick around being treated badly, but neither will I lightly abandon a friend. 

Mat knows how much she means to him, and what it will cost him to lose her. Having been betrayed once, he knows what it will feel like if she does it again. None of us can tell him which would work out better. None of us can tell him his walkaway point. We can only do what we are doing, which is to help him see the factors he has to consider in his decision.

Frankly, if my marriage is the result of being a fixer, happy to be one. But that's me and my wife.


----------



## Kasler

The path of the fixer leads to more false R than anything else. 

Sure theres some exceptions, but most are simply crutches to broken people.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Not because they have a conscience, but because they're about to pay the piper. They had their dance, time to pay the band.
> 
> When I have a conscience affected decision, it usually happens Before I do something, not after.
> 
> The idea of these waywards innocuously 'realizing the error of their ways' just when their asses are about to get held over the fire is simply ludicrous.
> 
> They realize their BS isn't putting up with their bullsh!t and then they want to change, but when the BS continues to put his/her head in the sand they and their consciences continue to cake eat.
> 
> Now thats a fact for ya.


I've seen both. Don't have the numbers to argue what is more common, but it's kind of irrelevant here, since MrsM is already getting a toe-toasting. Mat just has to decide whether it is medium rare or burnt to a crisp.

If you guys want to argue about the degree of her remorse, I'm afraid I just don't know. I am trying to challenge her when I see she needs it, and support her because I am sure she is hurting, albeit for her own crimes.

And if you have never done something then regretted it later, I suspect you are a very rare human being.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> The path of the fixer leads to more false R than anything else.
> 
> Sure theres some exceptions, but most are simply crutches to broken people.


Repeating an assertion without offering evidence after it is challenged doesn't suddenly make it true.

If you think everyone who stays by a friend and forgives is a fixer, then I am happy to be such a person.

A great wrong has been done to Mat. No-one would blame him for walking away, and it would take a big heart and a lot of work to forgive. I would certainly advise him to be sure he really wants to reconcile Also to be very careful, take his time and look for clear evidence that MrsM has learned her lesson before jumping back in. But I'll leave it to you guys to tell him his only real option is to kick her to the curb, because I think that would be bad advice.

Sorry. Agree to disagree.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> Sorry. Agree to disagree.


Seems the only thing we agree on. 

I don't regret much in my life btw, perhaps because I actually use whats between my ears. Even if I did wrong if its something I thought about in depth I'm not necessarily gonna regret it. 

I wouldn't call being an apologist or a glutton for disappointment having a big heart, a big tolerance for bullsh!t perhaps but not that.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Seems the only thing we agree on.
> 
> I don't regret much in my life btw, perhaps because I actually use whats between my ears. Even if I did wrong if its something I thought about in depth I'm not necessarily gonna regret it.
> 
> I wouldn't call being an apologist or a glutton for disappointment having a big heart, a big tolerance for bullsh!t perhaps but not that.


Would make sense if the disappointment were inevitable. It's not. It's one possible outcome.

Fair enough, you think disappointment is most likely. I don't know.

But if that is your feeling, why bother to love at all? 50% of marriages end in divorce, many that don't are unhappy, and many relationships never get to marriage. Not good odds. Better to stay alone maybe?


----------



## Kasler

Better to choose right. 

BS walks in on cheating, rugsweep it, 5 years later theres another affair and they act so surprised. 

Most people in bad marriages knew the issues before hand. They just liked to think they'd go away after getting hitched or just ignore them entirely. Many thought that their marriages would be special and that they exception the rule of past issues persisting through to the marriage, and for the most part they are wrong. 

Disappointment is more likely, but I'm not gonna statistic hunt for old articles and graphs, but most Rs are false or just armistices because neither partner takes the right steps.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Better to choose right.
> 
> BS walks in on cheating, rugsweep it, 5 years later theres another affair and they act so surprised.
> 
> Most people in bad marriages knew the issues before hand. They just liked to think they'd go away after getting hitched or just ignore them entirely. Many thought that their marriages would be special and that they exception the rule of past issues persisting through to the marriage, and for the most part they are wrong.
> 
> iDisappointment is more likely, but I'm not gonna statistic hunt for old articles and graphs, but most Rs are false or just armistices because neither partner takes the right steps.


Agree. Totally agree.

If you are going to reconcile you need to confront issues. Not ignore them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

Wazza said:


> A great wrong has been done to Mat. No-one would blame him for walking away, and it would take a big heart and a lot of work to forgive. I would certainly advise him to be sure he really wants to reconcile Also to be very careful, take his time and look for clear evidence that MrsM has learned her lesson before jumping back in. But I'll leave it to you guys to tell him his only real option is to kick her to the curb, because I think that would be bad advice.
> 
> Sorry. Agree to disagree.


IMO, MrsM does not deserve the advantage of trying to reconcile with DrM while still in a legal marriage and living under the same roof. This puts DrM at a physcological disadvantage and constant witness to her acting out the role of perfect wife and mom for as long as the part suits her.

At a minimum, they should legally seperate (if not divorce) and one of them should move out. DrM needs to clear his head of her and her nonsense and start socializing with different groups of people. Once his head clears, he can decide if MrM should be in his future or not. As far as MrsM is concerned, under a separation (or divorce) she is going to have to work a lot harder at getting him back if she really wants him. She has too much of an advantage to manipulate him living under the same roof while legally married, and an "R" might happen when it might not be the right thing ... And in this case, it's not the right thing.


----------



## turnera

Actually, most psychologists I've read from feel that the couple SHOULD stay in the same house to get to the root of the problems.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> Sound a little more centered. Glad to hear it.
> 
> Another question more is, (seems I can't stop pilling up)... you are not a teacher, never were formed to it, your education was about your artistic side. I'd like to know what kind of boundaries you had with your teachers back then.



Matt and i have talked about this a little bit. The teachers who were most seminal to my artistic development and whom I strongly admired as an educator definitely all have issues with boundaries/choices, etc. While they were absolutely inspirational in the classroom and stage, their behavior outside the classroom was not model.
------------------
HS English teacher/drama coach - young, single, routinely socialized with us as students in her home, watching movies, pizza parties, etc.

College choir director/voice teacher - intimidating, exceptionally demanding/high expectations, really pushed me to step up and succeed, yearly holiday/thank you parties at his home with his family, had a long term affair (fairly well known by the time I was a student - not sure about before), eventually married OW after his D (not sure who left who in that scenario)

Grad school opera director - gregarious, engaging, again very demanding in her expectations, hosted raging college cast parties at her home after each opera, underage drinking, students putting on drag shows from her closet, she would be drunk and acting out with us - literally my first time at her home involved walking past some underage students on the porch drinking beer through a funnel/tube, whatever that's called.
----------------------

So it's pretty clear that while I received an excellent education as an artist from them, their professionalism was not exemplary. I guess I assumed this is pretty much the norm for people in my field - and it may be, but that also doesn't make it desirable or appropriate.


----------



## Broken at 20

So...all your role models and people that you held in high esteem for your education had poor student/teacher boundaries, and some had affairs...

And are you still not entirely sure the reasons for having your affair? Because I think I may have found something for you and your counselor to talk about...


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt and i have talked about this a little bit. The teachers who were most seminal to my artistic development and whom I strongly admired as an educator definitely all have issues with boundaries/choices, etc. While they were absolutely inspirational in the classroom and stage, their behavior outside the classroom was not model.
> ------------------
> HS English teacher/drama coach - young, single, routinely socialized with us as students in her home, watching movies, pizza parties, etc.
> 
> College choir director/voice teacher - intimidating, exceptionally demanding/high expectations, really pushed me to step up and succeed, yearly holiday/thank you parties at his home with his family, had a long term affair (fairly well known by the time I was a student - not sure about before), eventually married OW after his D (not sure who left who in that scenario)
> 
> Grad school opera director - gregarious, engaging, again very demanding in her expectations, hosted raging college cast parties at her home after each opera, underage drinking, students putting on drag shows from her closet, she would be drunk and acting out with us - literally my first time at her home involved walking past some underage students on the porch drinking beer through a funnel/tube, whatever that's called.
> ----------------------
> 
> So it's pretty clear that while I received an excellent education as an artist from them, their professionalism was not exemplary. I guess I assumed this is pretty much the norm for people in my field - and it may be, but that also doesn't make it desirable or appropriate.


All of this just indicates to me that not only do you need to quit your job you need a new career. I'm sorry but I really think your chosen field is toxic, especially to you.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Broken at 20 said:


> So...all your role models and people that you held in high esteem for your education had poor student/teacher boundaries, and some had affairs...
> 
> And are you still not entirely sure the reasons for having your affair? Because I think I may have found something for you and your counselor to talk about...


Definitely something to talk about. However, I will say that I know many people in my field that do not fit this pattern, and others that have changed their behavior. My opera director in grad school is one of them - she got married late in life and is now "settled". No more underage parties that I know of, and while I am sure she still makes "friends" with some of her students/former students, I think she maintains better boundaries with them.

I am willing and able to do whatever is best for my own personal recovery from this affair and what works for my husband and son - whether that means leaving education entirely, leaving theater/music entirely, or finding a new sense of balance and boundaries within either or both of those situations. Matt and I have discussed that I have a lot of changes to make, but that it is not practical or a model for future success if I attempt to become completely self-sacrificing. All we would do is reverse positions, essentially, in how our marriage has been operating, and that is likely to breed similar issues. 

My sister (who recently went through a divorce) asked me shortly after D-Day #2/3 what I would be able and willing to do to maintain a steady relationship with my son. And I've really thought a lot about what the future may hold if/when Matt and I do finalize our divorce. I am of the mindset that I will go wherever they go to maintain frequent visitation, regardless of the job opportunities available to me. Basically, I had to really think about what I will value most in the future. And my JOB won't be there to hold my hand when I'm 70. My JOB won't walk across a high school graduation stage. My SON will. And I want that more than any job satisfaction. Would it be nice to be able to have a job that is not just "work"? Of course. But my dedication to that has definitely decreased as I've been seriously looking at possible futures.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mrs_Mathias said:


> ... The teachers who were most *seminal* to my artistic development and whom I strongly admired as an educator definitely all have issues with boundaries/choices, etc. ...


Sorry, couldn't let a good Freudian slip go unmentioned.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

carmen ohio said:


> Sorry, couldn't let a good Freudian slip go unmentioned.


I had to look up the definition because I was sure I used the word correctly. I had no clue about definition #2! Craziness.


----------



## loveisforever

A lot of your ways of rationalizing is similar to my wife. My wife has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Borderline personality disorder (BPD). I think you might has some traits of NPD and BPD. Notably: 

1) You have a self identification issue and a unstable self-image. You desperately wanted to be important for your students in their eyes. Want to be someone valuable. Deep down, you may fear your worthless. 
2) You has behaved like a pathological liar. A pathological liar lies regularly, even lies to herself. 
3) You mixed boundaries with others and take advantage of them. 
4) You sometimes treat your husband as object and showed no empathy.
5) You created lots of dramas. 
6) You may think you are "smarter" than others. You may think being "passionate" make you a better person, but in fact, you were only "passionate" about yourself.
7) I guess you may have emotional issues. 

It is hard to diagnose NPD and BPD. Just have a check.


----------



## shazam

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I had to look up the definition because I was sure I used the word correctly. I had no clue about definition #2! Craziness.


Why not just get divorced? You can talk to young students, flirt, date, hook up, go to parties. What's in it for you to stay? I'm really trying to grasp why after so many chances you now want to be married.


----------



## MattMatt

shazam said:


> Why not just get divorced? You can talk to young students, flirt, date, hook up, go to parties. What's in it for you to stay? I'm really trying to grasp why after so many chances you now want to be married.


Possibly she compartmentalised. Faithful wife here... OM's lover... there.

Now, compartmentalisation works really well, right up until it doesn't. 

Then it becomes faithfulwifeOM'slover and there we see the problem. When the two collide together, they are no longer sustainable and they think: "I am a cheat. Never mind what my wife/husband thinks of me! What do *I* think of me?"

And when you come to the understanding that you -somehow- became the kind of person you hate and despise the most in the whole, wide world... well, that gives you pause for thought. And yes, I do know what that's like. It isn't nice.

But with that self-knowledge comes hope that you can be once again the better person you used to be.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

MattMatt said:


> Possibly she compartmentalised. Faithful wife here... OM's lover... there.
> 
> Now, compartmentalisation works really well, right up until it doesn't.
> 
> Then it becomes faithfulwifeOM'slover and there we see the problem. When the two collide together, they are no longer sustainable and they think: "I am a cheat. Never mind what my wife/husband thinks of me! What do *I* think of me?"
> 
> And when you come to the understanding that you -somehow- became the kind of person you hate and despise the most in the whole, wide world... well, that gives you pause for thought. And yes, I do know what that's like. It isn't nice.
> 
> But with that self-knowledge comes hope that you can be once again the better person you used to be.



Bingo. I am a master compartmentalizer. Partly I think, because of my career field. It was really deeply ingrained into me in college that if I was going to be successful in the arts, I had to be able to put everything else out of my mind and perform in any given circumstance... So I got really good at that. You know what they say, the show must go on. I honed that skill for years - putting everything aside as needed and focusing only on one thing at a time to enable me to get through whatever I was facing. But obviously, I carried that into all aspects of my life and that was a huge mistake. 

So finally, I reached a point where it couldn't compartmentalize. Where all the things I'd been diligently keeping apart crashed together and I have to try to assimilate what all these different pieces say about me, who I am, and who I can be. It's a lot of stuff to look at and sort through. But any progress is good, at this point.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Definitely something to talk about. However, I will say that I know many people in my field that do not fit this pattern, and others that have changed their behavior. My opera director in grad school is one of them - she got married late in life and is now "settled". No more underage parties that I know of, and while I am sure she still makes "friends" with some of her students/former students, I think she maintains better boundaries with them.
> 
> I am willing and able to do whatever is best for my own personal recovery from this affair and what works for my husband and son - whether that means leaving education entirely, leaving theater/music entirely, or finding a new sense of balance and boundaries within either or both of those situations. Matt and I have discussed that I have a lot of changes to make, but that it is not practical or a model for future success if I attempt to become completely self-sacrificing. All we would do is reverse positions, essentially, in how our marriage has been operating, and that is likely to breed similar issues.
> 
> My sister (who recently went through a divorce) asked me shortly after D-Day #2/3 what I would be able and willing to do to maintain a steady relationship with my son. And I've really thought a lot about what the future may hold if/when Matt and I do finalize our divorce. I am of the mindset that I will go wherever they go to maintain frequent visitation, regardless of the job opportunities available to me. Basically, I had to really think about what I will value most in the future. And my JOB won't be there to hold my hand when I'm 70. My JOB won't walk across a high school graduation stage. My SON will. And I want that more than any job satisfaction. Would it be nice to be able to have a job that is not just "work"? Of course. But my dedication to that has definitely decreased as I've been seriously looking at possible futures.


Why would your sister ask what would you be able and willing to do to maintain a steady relationship with your son? A very odd question to be asked of a mom from someone who knows her well.

That is after a friend says do what you do well and being married is not one of them.


----------



## MEM2020

Mrs M
You are so very skillful. Hats off to you. 

First you attempt to limit the time frame to the brief 'crazy fog'. I will call that minimizing. 

Then you attempt to redirect us to your role models. But truly this story begins with you starting to test Matts boundaries by dropping him to the bottom of the stack. This is about what you did to Matt. Not about pizza parties with students. 

You treated matt worse and worse because your universe was full of yourself. 

As for Matt - if I get this right you were slowly shutting him down in bed and then you 'let him' take you away for a lavish weekend and treat you like a princess. That is your example of putting him first. 

Ok then. Perhaps a career in magic might suit, the illusion and misdirection are masterful.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

jim123 said:


> Why would your sister ask what would you be able and willing to do to maintain a steady relationship with your son? A very odd question to be asked of a mom from someone who knows her well.
> 
> That is after a friend says do what you do well and being married is not one of them.


My sister and I are not close. My family is well aware of my prior dedication to work, and it is her way to really make me think about what I'm choosing.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

MEM11363 said:


> Mrs M
> You are so very skillful. Hats off to you.
> 
> First you attempt to limit the time frame to the brief 'crazy fog'. I will call that minimizing.
> 
> I think I am being realistic in my time frame. I have identified the beginning of the EA - IMO - and have acknowledged that Matt and I had problems that pre-dated my affair.
> 
> Then you attempt to redirect us to your role models. But truly this story begins with you starting to test Matts boundaries by dropping him to the bottom of the stack. This is about what you did to Matt. Not about pizza parties with students.
> 
> I was asked a direct question regarding my relationships with previous mentors/instructors, and a I answered it.
> 
> You treated matt worse and worse because your universe was full of yourself.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> As for Matt - if I get this right you were slowly shutting him down in bed and then you 'let him' take you away for a lavish weekend and treat you like a princess. That is your example of putting him first.
> 
> I disagree with this. Matt and I were becoming more disconnected over time. I never denied him sex, but we sought it less from each other. I should have initiated sex more with him. Regarding our trip, I planned the trip, 'took him away' as it were, and focused on him that weekend, planning events and tours I knew he would like. We both enjoyed that trip very much.
> 
> Ok then. Perhaps a career in magic might suit, the illusion and misdirection are masterful.


----------



## MEM2020

Mrs M, 
Ok those are fair answers. Thanks for clarifying the weekend trip as the planning and agenda really does make it clearly about him. That sort of thing is very nice. 

As for physicality and intimacy a couple words for the future from a 50 year old. 

When your h really loves you, it is possible to largely deprive him of his primary love language for a while, simply by use of the non verbal 'tired and not interested' body language. He won't initiate if you do that. It doesn't remove his desire, it just means you can both pretend you aren't rejecting him. His angry comments about you coming home as a zombie were partly about that. 

This theme I am focused on is not 'wife as sex toy', instead it is more part of affair proofing your marriage.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

MEM11363 said:


> Mrs M,
> Ok those are fair answers. Thanks for clarifying the weekend trip as the planning and agenda really does make it clearly about him. That sort of thing is very nice.
> 
> As for physicality and intimacy a couple words for the future from a 50 year old.
> 
> When your h really loves you, it is possible to largely deprive him of his primary love language for a while, simply by use of the non verbal 'tired and not interested' body language. He won't initiate if you do that. It doesn't remove his desire, it just means you can both pretend you aren't rejecting him. His angry comments about you coming home as a zombie were partly about that.
> 
> This theme I am focused on is not 'wife as sex toy', instead it is more part of affair proofing your marriage.


You make a good point about the body language. It is definitely a pattern that I am working on changing, along with a million other things...

I'll be back with an update on things later today or tomorrow.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

So last night was a rough one for us. I had to be at school late working on lights for my upcoming concert. Matt generously offered to stay and help me. We worked well together for several hours and then had a discussion as to a past sexual encounter I'd had with OM in that space. I gave him the details and answered questions, and we went home for the night after picking up our son. Later, Matt got really angry about the situation, and said he wants me staying back outside the home again. I never officially moved back - Matt would just let me stay sometimes if we were talking late and spending time together.

It's hard for me to know what the best way to handle situations like that is. Matt has shown in the past a very detail oriented interest in the affair, and I want him to have all the information he feels that he needs. He has also wanted me to sexually re-enact events with him, and I have always agreed. Last night, a large part of his anger was the way that I talked with him about the details - very dry and factual. I had taken a Xanax before starting work, because I thought the environment and situation would lead to anxiety for me. I am really trying right now to be calm both with our son and with Matt. I want to talk to him without adding any of my own emotional drama to the conversation. He says that he feels I am robotic and insincere. I also think it is partially a defense mechanism for me - I HATE the things I've done and how they hurt Matt and make me feel about myself. So relating them as factually as possible probably separates me from that pain and loathing a bit (or allows me to get through the conversation and think about it later).

I ordered the book Surviving the Affair to read, and it came in yesterday. Matt saw it and tore it in half. I am still reading it, just in pieces. I've also been reading the Five Love Languages book when I have time on my own. I have another IC appointment tomorrow, and started my journal for that Monday. 

Other actions I've been taking - I email Matt my schedule every morning, even if he says he doesn't care. I text him any changes. I put a keylogger on my work computer this morning, and hopefully Matt will come over and change the password to something only he knows at some point. I will be installing the same program on my laptop at home. I'm researching spyware that doesn't require jailbreak for my phone, and trying to pursue every transparency option I can think of. I am still prioritizing Matt and our son at home - helping do my part of the household duties, even when I am not staying there, and keeping outside rehearsals/commitments to a bare minimum.

Today a colleague emailed me that he had heard about our relationship issues through the grapevine. I'm sure at this point most of my colleagues have heard something. I don't know about my students. None of them have commented to me, and their classroom behavior has been the same. Next week is finals, so we just need to survive until then, and can have a break from work.

Overall, I am holding pretty steady. I am trying to respect Matt's need for space, and still try to show support and caring as he goes through this train-wreck I caused. It hits me in waves... my compartments are good while I am busy at school or focused on my son, but time on my own is really hard to get through. I really don't want to get bogged down in excessive self-loathing, instead of working on the changes I want to make in myself, but it's hard to not just sit and mentally abuse myself and my choices. But I don't feel that helps me progress, really. Maybe it's a necessary internalization of my guilt for now, especially as every day I am more and more sickened by what I did and put my family through. IDK... still rambling I guess.

Oh, I also started looking for new jobs in the city I assume my BH is planning to relocate to.


----------



## doc_martin

I say I get it. I am very factual as well. And yes, it would make me upset to hear the encounters as "facts" only. But continue you must. I would continue to answer his questions. If you have to a emotionally detach, and it's because you must to keep it together, than say that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

I may be wrong but his reaction is a combo of your acute behavior during the affair and your longer term lack of compassion pre dating the affair.


----------



## TCSRedhead

That was something that really bothered my BH too. For about a year, I really didn't cry or show a lot of emotion about what had happened. For me, I think I had done a lot of this by myself and did not feel it was appropriate for me to break down and cry when I was the one who had screwed up. It felt hypocritical to become that way when it was him that I hurt and betrayed. 

Even when we discuss things related to the A now, I am not likely to become emotional except when we start talking about how he was hurt or upset and then it just undoes all control I have over my emotions.

There will be good days and there will be bad days.


----------



## Wazza

TCSRedhead said:


> That was something that really bothered my BH too. For about a year, I really didn't cry or show a lot of emotion about what had happened. For me, I think I had done a lot of this by myself and did not feel it was appropriate for me to break down and cry when I was the one who had screwed up. It felt hypocritical to become that way when it was him that I hurt and betrayed.
> 
> Even when we discuss things related to the A now, I am not likely to become emotional except when we start talking about how he was hurt or upset and then it just undoes all control I have over my emotions.
> 
> There will be good days and there will be bad days.


My wife doesn't cry, she is just obviously very uncomfortable, and I can read how it hurts her in her body language. She has only rarely verbalised that hurt.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

TCSRedhead said:


> That was something that really bothered my BH too. For about a year, I really didn't cry or show a lot of emotion about what had happened. *For me, I think I had done a lot of this by myself and did not feel it was appropriate for me to break down and cry when I was the one who had screwed up. It felt hypocritical to become that way when it was him that I hurt and betrayed. *
> 
> Even when we discuss things related to the A now, I am not likely to become emotional except when we start talking about how he was hurt or upset and then it just undoes all control I have over my emotions.
> 
> There will be good days and there will be bad days.


This is EXACTLY what I feel. It's so awful to know I caused all of this, and such a dichotomy to feel this much pain but also feel like I don't deserve to express it.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> This is EXACTLY what I feel. It's so awful to know I caused all of this, and such a dichotomy to feel this much pain but also feel like I don't deserve to express it.


Not going to get into whether you deserve to express it...to controversial around here.

But if you break under the load of your emotions it doesn't help anyone, including Mat and your child. So, deserved or not, find someone who can support you.

If you are sincere about changing i believe you have a lot of pain ahead of you.


----------



## Acabado

If I had to choose I prefer actions, matching words, consistence, coherence... rather than emotional displays. I had enough of them. I prefer to see the maths.

Mrs. you are, will be for very long, in a cath 22. One we put our betrayed filters there's no "right" way to do anything. Had you a emotional break down there he also could think to himself: chochodrile tears... acting, as usal... you had to think about it earlier... ____ insert here whatever "filtered" response he come up with.
And... what about name calling, making a public scene, jeoparding your work... are you ready for this? It seems he's numb now, looking at things from a scientific, detached POV. You are under the microscope. And it's not a nice view, let's face it.
You can't avoid it. It's direct consequence of your actions, you know. You are going to be very patient and persevere, to keep going, no matter what. Always with respect in mind and - for God sake - being genuine and emotionaly transparent. That's all you can control and the only healthy choice you have.


----------



## Juicer

Holding in those emotions does not help. 

I won't get into deep detail about how I acted after my wife's affair, but I held in a lot of emotions. 
Sure, I let it bleed out in the gym a little bit, or when I would punch my walls, but it builds up and up and up. 
Until you burst. And it isn't pretty. 
Crying. Yelling. Cussing. Anger. Hysterical Bonding. Getting Physical. Upset. Screaming. 

That is the tip of the iceberg there. 
You need to start letting these emotions bleed out. Otherwise, you'll crack under the emotions and everything else you feel. 
Several posters on here told me I needed to get my butt into IC or else I would eventually melt down like a nuclear reactor. So I decided to try some IC. 
But I stopped going. And I cracked not too long after that. 

You need to stop filtering your emotions. If you need to break down, do it. Let your husband see it. Then he'll know: you are not trying to hide yourself from him, you are letting him see the true feelings you are feeling inside. How can he feel like you are being honest and open with you filtering your emotions?


----------



## Shaggy

About the rumor mill at school.

Here is what you will find.
1. Some will turn their back to you and want nothing to do with you.
2. Others male colleagues and male students will try to see if you'd be open to fooling around with them. Oh, they won't come right out and ask, instead they will be offering a friendly ear to talk too
3. You will find some nasty cheating women will become your buddy and start filling your head with things like "ok you made a mistake, but why should you keeping suffering for a little mistake."

4. Matt will be getting sympathy from some, and pity from others.
5. Matt will be getting a lot of attention from remake coworkers and students who want to help him feel better. Lots of it. You need to be prepared on how you will react to that.


----------



## larry.gray

Shaggy said:


> About the rumor mill at school.
> 
> Here is what you will find.
> 1. Some will turn their back to you and want nothing to do with you.


Yep, you're going to find out who the other betrayed spouses you work with. Some are not healed and will take it out on you.

I've had to counsel an employee for quite a while when he found out that one of his coworkers was cheating on her husband. He REALLY didn't want to work with her. Neither of us knew for a year that it was a revenge affair - that did soften his stance a little bit when we found out.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Yesterday was a tough day for me. For whatever reason, I faced a lot of depression and emotion. I've been doing fairly well just trying to be positive each day, to focus on the changes that I'm making in myself, but yesterday that just didn't stick. The phrase that kept circling around in my head was "It will never matter what I do because of what I've done." I don't think I really believe that deep down, but yesterday was just a defeated feeling day for me. I cried more than I have for over a week, and just felt so low. I don't want to be that around my family, I want to be strong and supportive for Matt, and level and happy with my son. It's very important to me to be consistent in my behavior and my desire to put Matt first, so it really felt like a setback yesterday to have to fight my own personal depression about what I've done, instead of giving my energy to helping him fight his. Matt was very kind yesterday, holding my hands, giving me time to nap, and when I started to put up the Christmas tree, even though I was in an incredibly negative place, he helped out and by the end of it, I was feeling a little better. It was wonderful to watch my son help with some of the ornaments and his little face smile in the glow of the lights. It's something I am so incredibly grateful I got to experience, and I think that helped me get back to a more healthy mindset of appreciating and showing my love for the little things each day and not getting bogged down in a past I can't change, but can learn and grow from.

I've been reading "Surviving the Affair", continuing my IC, and working on my journaling and thought clarification. The book seems deceptively simple. I know that it's not, but my type-A personality likes having definite structure as I look at my behavior, choices, and attitudes and the effects of those. Have any of you found it useful in your experiences? 

My work experience has not really changed. I know that the bulk of the people I interact with must know - if not all the details - certainly the big picture. However, my students have continued to be consistent in their behavior, and the only colleagues that have approached me have been caring in their comments. It's definitely more than I could have ever hoped in our small environment. I'm sure the gossip behind my back is fairly vicious, but there is nothing I can do about that. 

I am still semi-waiting for some sort of pull/craving for contact with OM to happen. I am REALLY happy that it hasn't, and hope that means I am on my way to having a much more logical/realistic view of what happened between us, and that the false "emotions" that I was listening to before can't impact me in the same way. I was able to help Matt find the last address he was missing for my NC letters, and I felt good about that, and relieved that my desire to completely end those toxic friendships would be clearly stated and (I hope) respected by the recipients. I think NC with those toxic friends has the potential to be more difficult for me over time than with OM. Part of my brain still wants to over-accept responsibility for their choices in that situation, that I put them into an impossible place, etc. etc. I just need to let that kind of thinking go. I am responsible for ME. I am responsible for my son, until he is older. Every other person I interact with is perfectly capable of using their own intelligence, values, and feelings to decide their own course of action. I may have some influence on that, but I do not choose for them.

We are three weeks past D-Day 2. I still feel substantially different than the first time, but I am wary of trusting that feeling. But it is nice to feel more grounded, nonetheless. I am on-guard against complacency and a false sense of security with myself, and continue to make stronger barriers between myself and anything that could lead to the same slipping from before. Every day is another day to improve.


----------



## turnera

Do you read his thread?


----------



## aug

your H appears to accept your attempt. hopefully that helps you.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> Do you read his thread?


Yes, and he knows I do. I am trying not to address things said in that thread that aren't directed to me, even though I would sometimes very much like to. He's not posting anything there that we aren't talking about together, although sometimes his words are a little clearer when written, likely because he's had more time to consider them. My thread is probably the same way.


----------



## turnera

I just wondered about the D-day thing. HE says he considers 3 D-days, and some of his fiercer cheerleaders are saying FOUR D-days, so I just wondered if you and he are on the same page about this.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> I just wondered about the D-day thing. HE says he considers 3 D-days, and some of his fiercer cheerleaders are saying FOUR D-days, so I just wondered if you and he are on the same page about this.


Yeah, I think we both agree that there are 2 major D-Days, and the 3rd was the final truth (deluge, I think he described it) a few days after my lies on D-Day 2. So that's a little gray area. It may well be 3 D-Days, given the amount of stuff I had lied about. Day 2 to 3 all blurs together in terms of the emotional turmoil for me, instead of feeling like we were settled after one and then another shock, if that makes any sense. I think he has to be the one to define that.

So I guess to clarify, we are 2 1/2 weeks past D-Day 3, instead of 3 weeks past D-Day 2.


----------



## jnj express

Where is it you are coming from-----"you are still looking for a pull/craving for your lover"

I would think the only emotion you would have toward your POS lover, that has destroyed your life, as you know it, is DISGUST.

Why would there be any kind of an emotion toward your lover----cannot you not control yourself-------if you haven't clamped down on what you feel for that utter POS, who has destroyed everyone around you-------then you do not deserve even to be allowed a chance at an R

You should be on your knees groveling, that you are allowed to be with the family putting up a tree, that you have a H, that thinks enuff of you, to allow you to basically keep your lifestyle---and what are you doing----"waiting for feelings toward your lover to come back"--------that's what caused you to go to him the 2nd time--------WHEN DO YOU INTEND TO DEAL WITH THIS, AND BE RID OF IT ONCE AND FOR ALL


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Yeah, I think we both agree that there are 2 major D-Days, and the 3rd was the final truth (deluge, I think he described it) a few days after my lies on D-Day 2. So that's a little gray area. It may well be 3 D-Days, given the amount of stuff I had lied about. Day 2 to 3 all blurs together in terms of the emotional turmoil for me, instead of feeling like we were settled after one and then another shock, if that makes any sense. I think he has to be the one to define that.
> 
> So I guess to clarify, we are 2 1/2 weeks past D-Day 3, instead of 3 weeks past D-Day 2.


Matt wrote about the Skype "confrontation" with CJ. What s your version of that? What is your understanding of "(sigh) done"?

Did OM love you or think of you as a FWB? And how did you think of him?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> I am on my way to having a much more logical/*realistic view* of what happened between us, and that the *false "emotions"* that I was listening to before can't impact me in the same way




You seem to be doing and saying the right things. I did not think there was any hope for you at first but you took ACTIONS and that will be what will keep your life from becoming a huge life of depression. Those actions may even keep you family together. *It all depends on how diligently you follow those correct actions and for how long you will follow them*. It is easy to slack off those actions after a year or two. Right now there seems real hope for you


You are beginning to see what is real in life and realizing that those false emotions can destroy a marriage and your relationship with your son. * Those false emotions are what a fool will embrace and risk everything.*You know that now but do not ever forget the great pain that you will suffer because of “false emotions”





> Matt was very kind yesterday, holding my hands, giving me time to nap, and when I started to put up the Christmas tree, even though I was in an incredibly negative place, he helped out and by the end of it, I was feeling a little better. It was wonderful to watch my son help with some of the ornaments and his little face smile in the glow of the lights.





> I am responsible for ME. I am responsible for my son, until he is older.


That is what the good life is all about. You have a husband that is kind and a son that is the light of your life. Your son deserves a mother that is dedicated to him as that will be a win-win for both of you. *Real life can be good with wholesome emotions and actions*


----------



## turnera

I wasn't reading when you first came here. Everyone keeps saying that you set up an account here just so you could manipulate Mr M and keep cheating. What's the real truth?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

jnj express said:


> Where is it you are coming from-----"you are still looking for a pull/craving for your lover"
> 
> You are deliberately misquoting me - I am NOT "still looking for a pull/craving for my lover." He is NOT my lover. He is OM. I am waiting to see if that original feeling reappears. I DO NOT feel it now, but it was present after D-Day 1, so I am wary of it's return. I feel differently about OM now than then, but I want to be really on-guard against any possible resurgence of foggy fantasy emotion.
> 
> I would think the only emotion you would have toward your POS lover, that has destroyed your life, as you know it, is DISGUST.
> 
> Why would there be any kind of an emotion toward your lover----cannot you not control yourself-------if you haven't clamped down on what you feel for that utter POS, who has destroyed everyone around you-------then you do not deserve even to be allowed a chance at an R
> 
> You should be on your knees groveling, that you are allowed to be with the family putting up a tree, that you have a H, that thinks enuff of you, to allow you to basically keep your lifestyle---and what are you doing----"waiting for feelings toward your lover to come back"--------that's what caused you to go to him the 2nd time--------WHEN DO YOU INTEND TO DEAL WITH THIS, AND BE RID OF IT ONCE AND FOR ALL
> 
> I am sorry if my post hit a nerve with you. I am INCREDIBLY grateful for the experiences I have had over the last few weeks with my family. I do NOT deserve any of those happy moments. But you are misinterpreting what I am talking about here. I feel that I have dealt with OM, that I am absolutely sickened by what we did, but I am also afraid to trust myself just yet. That's why I am constantly re-evaluating what I am thinking, feeling, and the safeguards that I am putting in place against something that has been a significant weakness IN THE PAST. It would be stupid of me to feel over-confident and NOT prepare myself for potential struggles. I want to make certain that I have given myself the accountability, support, and strategies needed to OVERCOME any sort of potential temptation, so that I can truly be the person I want to be, and not the person I've been. After D-Day 1, I had every honest intention of R with my husband, but I didn't anticipate or prepare for the reappearance of OM in my life and how that would make me feel. I will NOT make that mistake again. Whether he reappears or not, I need to understand my weaknesses, selfishness, and past failings. That's what I am preparing for and guarding against.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> Matt wrote about the Skype "confrontation" with CJ. What s your version of that? What is your understanding of "(sigh) done"?
> 
> Matt's version is accurate, IMO. I have no clue how to interpret "(sigh) done" other than OM and I had last communicated on good terms, as friends. So I honestly don't know if he was still intending pursuing a sexual/romantic relationship with me later down the line, even though we had agreed that was done, or referring to the "friendship".
> 
> Did OM love you or think of you as a FWB? And how did you think of him?
> 
> I can't answer for OM. He led me to believe that he loved me, but it is very possible that was all just an act. I believed that I was in love with OM and with Matt during the affair.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> I wasn't reading when you first came here. Everyone keeps saying that you set up an account here just so you could manipulate Mr M and keep cheating. What's the real truth?



I had brought Matt here about 5 or 6 days before my first post to read some threads about R that I had found on a Google search. When I posted here, my intent was to ask for real help how to save my marriage and show my love to my husband. My affair details in my post were false because I had not been honest with Matt about the extent of the affair. But the questions I asked, and assistance/viewpoints I sought were legitimate. I understand how my lies would really hurt the largely BS readership here. I understand how that could trigger their own pain about being lied to in their current and/or former relationships. But I was simply maintaining my story, not lying to manipulate others view of me, and hoping that I could find some real solutions to a healthier relationship with my husband.


----------



## shazam

Come on he was 21!!! Are you that naive? Your story is automatically different because of that. You though a kid three years out of high school was in love with you? You saw a future with a 21 yr old? I mean you were given a slew of chances and the fact that he's a kid who maybe isn't even don growing yet. Have you addressed that at all? I find it so hard to believe you saw this as anything but sex and now you're trying to rationalize that it was love and an emotional affair. This kid was just thinking it was awesome to bang an older, married chick. Either your one of the silliest people that's been on here or you're incredible naive. This has to be addressed, why a kid? There is nothing resembling a man at 21.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Mrs M, was thinking of you this morning! Remember, you can't change his mind, but you can show little by little your changes.


----------



## Broken at 20

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I had brought Matt here about 5 or 6 days before my first post to read some threads about R that I had found on a Google search. *When I posted here, my intent was to ask for real help how to save my marriage and show my love to my husband.* My affair details in my post were false because I had not been honest with Matt about the extent of the affair. But the questions I asked, and assistance/viewpoints I sought were legitimate. *I understand how my lies would really hurt the largely BS readership here. I understand how that could trigger their own pain about being lied to in their current and/or former relationships. * But I was simply maintaining my story, not lying to manipulate others view of me, and *hoping that I could find some real solutions to a healthier relationship with my husband*.


I don't believe you mean any of what I bolded above. 
You didn't want to show him your love. You wanted to keep him from divorcing you. 
You were still in contact with the OM when you first started posting here. 
Took you three DDays (yes, I am saying three, because clarification day is just a less devastating DDay) to supposedly cut contact with the OM.

If you trully read other threads and sites about reconciliation, most of them say:
Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Which you didn't do until recently. 
Cut the OM entirely out of your life. Which you didn't do until last month. 
Be committed to your marriage 100%. Which you weren't because you were busy talking with the OM. 

You failed every single one of them. 

So why are you suddenly wanting to be with Mr. M now? Why now? 
What magical force took hold of you, pulled you out of the fog, made you realize what you were doing, and stop it? 
Because the first two DDays didn't do it. And I don't believe the third one or whatever you want to call it, will fix it either. I think it is just another act of your's. Because you put on an act for the first two. Who's to say you aren't putting on an act for the third one?


----------



## turnera

shazam, just as men get hot and bothered by Victoria's Secret models, women in their 30s and 40s think a 21 year old guy is just about the right 'type' to be their version of the VS model. It's not that far-fetched that if such a guy came on to a woman in her 30s, she would be VERY flattered and, yes, naive. 

One thing I see all the time is men assuming that women 'know' that all men think with their other head. They don't. Women think that men think the same way they do - in terms of affection and romance and romance novels. If a guy comes up to them, in general, and says 'you are amazing,' they generally think the guy thinks they're amazing - that he has a connection, he admires her, wants her for her mind and personality (at least that's what they WANT to think, as that's what's important to the woman). Not that he thinks he found a way to get into her pants. And if it's a 21 year old who is 'all that'...age isn't a consideration. When I was her age, had a kid her age, I sure as hell didn't think I was old, or over the hill, or any such thing. It wasn't time to button up the shirt and wear skirts below the knees just because I was too old to be a viable woman. I felt no different than I did in my 20s.


----------



## turnera

Broken at 20 said:


> ITell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Which you didn't do until recently.
> Cut the OM entirely out of your life. Which you didn't do until last month.
> Be committed to your marriage 100%. Which you weren't because you were busy talking with the OM.
> 
> You failed every single one of them.


Just like every OTHER person who cheats. She is no different, no worse; she did what she did to maintain her addiction while it was going on, just like every other cheater. I've seen women leave their husband and kids at home - with no car - to drive across the country to meet their OM. I've seen them give up custody so they could fly to Australia to try out the OM. 

Most sources will tell you that a cheater will fall off the wagon and re-contact the AP at least 2 or 3 times before finally 'getting it.' She is following the typical FWW script, nothing worse.


----------



## shazam

turnera said:


> shazam, just as men get hot and bothered by Victoria's Secret models, women in their 30s and 40s think a 21 year old guy is just about the right 'type' to be their version of the VS model. It's not that far-fetched that if such a guy came on to a woman in her 30s, she would be VERY flattered and, yes, naive.
> 
> One thing I see all the time is men assuming that women 'know' that all men think with their other head. They don't. Women think that men think the same way they do - in terms of affection and romance and romance novels. If a guy comes up to them, in general, and says 'you are amazing,' they generally think the guy thinks they're amazing - that he has a connection, he admires her, wants her for her mind and personality (at least that's what they WANT to think, as that's what's important to the woman). Not that he thinks he found a way to get into her pants. And if it's a 21 year old who is 'all that'...age isn't a consideration. When I was her age, had a kid her age, I sure as hell didn't think I was old, or over the hill, or any such thing. It wasn't time to button up the shirt and wear skirts below the knees just because I was too old to be a viable woman. I felt no different than I did in my 20s.


As someone who did the whole hook up date older women thing, none of these women thought it would be serious or turn into something more. They knew it was casual and wouldn't last long. IMO she probably new this too.


----------



## turnera

You are mind reading and projecting. According to your premise, every 20 year old guy wants to hook up with older women.


----------



## Broken at 20

turnera said:


> Just like every OTHER person who cheats. She is no different, no worse; she did what she did to maintain her addiction while it was going on, just like every other cheater. I've seen women leave their husband and kids at home - with no car - to drive across the country to meet their OM. I've seen them give up custody so they could fly to Australia to try out the OM.
> Most sources will tell you that a cheater will fall off the wagon and re-contact the AP at least 2 or 3 times before finally 'getting it.' She is following the typical FWW script, nothing worse.


And she had a very clear message the first time. 
I think the fact that Dr. M. didn't stick to his guns and file/divorce her then is the reason she is in the situation she is in now. 
But also, she has lied to us consistently, and her husband, consistently. I am taking everything she says with a grain of salt. 
And she still has not shown the remorse that over WW have shown on other threads. 

Plus the fact she gave her husband two acts of reconciliation after both DDays, and the fact she is in theatre, tells me:
She is good at acting 
And she is use to acting remorseful, and good at trying to get him into reconciliation. Otherwise, we would've only had 1 DDay if she was bad at trying to get him to forgive her.


----------



## turnera

Consistently - for a period of a couple months. Again, no different than any other cheater in the middle of an affair.



> And she still has not shown the remorse that over WW have shown on other threads.


I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


----------



## warlock07

> I can't answer for OM. He led me to believe that he loved me, but it is very possible that was all just an act.


did he explicitly say he loved you. or did you assume he did?


----------



## Broken at 20

turnera said:


> I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


More because she has consistently lied to her husband, despite the gracious gifts of reconciliation he offerred to her, TWICE now, and instead spat on them and choose to go back to the OM.

I don't 100% believe her, because she has lied for how long? Serial liars and cheaters don't just magically wakeup and stop doing it one day.


----------



## Numbersixxx

turnera said:


> You are mind reading and projecting. According to your premise, every 20 year old guy wants to hook up with older women.


Every 20 year old guy would bang ANY women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


This is a path that I can't navigate online. It doesn't feel sincere, so I'm not doing it. My sincerity and emotion is for my husband to see and understand. I tend to be a problem-solver type persona, and I came to this forum for a resource in that, not for some kind of emotional outlet. As far as liking myself, it's hard to classify right now, BUT I have a son to think about. I have a future with him. I'm not going to do something stupid to myself over my horrific past choices and rob him of the chance to have a mother who recovers herself from this. 

So I choose action, positive thinking and choices to help me on my path to change. I have been consistently reminded that as a liar, my words have no value. So it's really interesting to observe that somehow I still manage to not be "saying the right things" in some people's estimation, considering that all I say is worthless anyway.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

warlock07 said:


> did he explicitly say he loved you. or did you assume he did?


He explicitly said that. In person and in messages, repeatedly over the course of the affair. But that doesn't mean it was factual. People clearly say a lot of things that aren't true.


----------



## Wazza

shazam said:


> As someone who did the whole hook up date older women thing, none of these women thought it would be serious or turn into something more. They knew it was casual and wouldn't last long. IMO she probably new this too.


Are you sure they knew?

And were they always single?


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He explicitly said that. In person and in messages, repeatedly over the course of the affair. But that doesn't mean it was factual. People clearly say a lot of things that aren't true.


If you saw this as love, where did you see it going?

You strike me as a smart person. I am intrigued how you perceived all this.

I am sure this has been discussed with Matt. If the question is too painful you don't need to answer it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> If you saw this as love, where did you see it going?
> 
> I didn't. I chose not to look at those issues. I always told OM from the beginning that I could never be "his" and that I would always belong to Matt and my son. So no matter what our "feelings" were, there was never a contemplated future. I guess I thought that there would come a time where OM would find someone he loved more than me, someone who could really be a partner to him in a relationship, and I could let him go, knowing he was going to be happy and loved in life. But I was selfish enough to accept his love for me one day at a time, despite feeling that I couldn't return what he deserved, and he said that was ok with him, that he just wanted to make me happy and share whatever we could. It was ridiculously delusional on both our parts.
> 
> You strike me as a smart person. I am intrigued how you perceived all this.
> 
> I am sure this has been discussed with Matt. If the question is too painful you don't need to answer it.


----------



## WyshIknew

jnj express said:


> I would think the only emotion you would have toward your POS lover, that has destroyed your life, as you know it, is DISGUST.
> 
> Why would there be any kind of an emotion toward your lover----cannot you not control yourself-------if you haven't clamped down on what you feel for that utter POS, who has destroyed everyone around you-------then you do not deserve even to be allowed a chance at an R





Wazza said:


> Matt wrote about the Skype "confrontation" with CJ. What s your version of that? What is your understanding of "(sigh) done"?


Matt's version is accurate, IMO. I have no clue how to interpret "(sigh) done" other than OM and I had last communicated on good terms, as friends. So I honestly don't know if he was still intending pursuing a sexual/romantic relationship with me later down the line, even though we had agreed that was done, or referring to the "friendship".


You see this is a big problem for me. 

It is of course possible that we are not getting the full account of the "(sigh) done" comment and the aftermath of the encounter but you state that Matt's account is accurate.

Apparently you (from memory of Matt's thread) went quiet and then agreed OM was a coward.

Remember this was a young man who, with you, has destroyed the life of a man who you vowed to love above all others.

He then proceeded with the "(sigh) done" comment to further twist the knife into your husbands heart. And your reaction was to go quiet, SMH.
The proper reaction would have been intense anger that this pos had so callously hurt your hubby.

If your husband had permitted it perhaps scream down the phone and tell him what a c**t he is.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

WyshIknew said:


> Matt's version is accurate, IMO. I have no clue how to interpret "(sigh) done" other than OM and I had last communicated on good terms, as friends. So I honestly don't know if he was still intending pursuing a sexual/romantic relationship with me later down the line, even though we had agreed that was done, or referring to the "friendship".
> 
> 
> You see this is a big problem for me.
> 
> It is of course possible that we are not getting the full account of the "(sigh) done" comment and the aftermath of the encounter but you state that Matt's account is accurate.
> 
> Apparently you (from memory of Matt's thread) went quiet and then agreed OM was a coward.
> 
> Remember this was a young man who, with you, has destroyed the life of a man who you vowed to love above all others.
> 
> He then proceeded with the "(sigh) done" comment to further twist the knife into your husbands heart. And your reaction was to go quiet, SMH.
> The proper reaction would have been intense anger that this pos had so callously hurt your hubby.
> 
> If your husband had permitted it perhaps scream down the phone and tell him what a c**t he is.


It wasn't a phone - it was a typed conversation on Skype. OM would not answer the video call... said he was with family. So I never spoke to OM or corresponded with him in any way. I sat quietly with my BH because I knew it had to be crushing to him to not get the confrontation/response that he was seeking. What can I say to that? I just wanted him to know I was there and supporting him as he attempted to interact with OM.


----------



## jnj express

Mrs M---if you read most of my posts my term lover means the same as your term OM---they ARE one and the same----he was your lover, you call him whatever you want

I do not dislike/like you---I have no feelings either way---I am simply throwing ideas, regurging facts, reminding you, and hoping you will get it all----SURE IT IS HARD---IT IS HARDER THAN HE*L FOR YOU TO TAKE---but in all honesty this is no worse than jail time for a convicted criminal---and you are a criminal of your H's/Child's human heart, and the destruction you have brought to them.

Most here, and yes they are betray'ds---is that you ended your A, you begged R,and I am very sure you did beg to be allowed to stay in the family, you allegedly were Remourseful, repenetant, and yet you looked at your own wedding band, and you spat at it, and started up again---FOR WHAT---tawdry sex

Had you had any thoughts of a grown mature woman, who was given the mantle of leading young people, educating them, and refining their minds, this should have never happened---HAD YOU HAD ANY THOUGHTS OF WHAT YOUR LIFE WILL BE LIKE IN YOUR GOLDEN YEARS, when it IS only you and your H., for you do need a partner, when there is only the 2 of you, and you MUST lean on/help each other---you would not have done this, have you any idea of what life is like in your 70's/80's if you are alone?????

I just find it hard to understand, how a grown woman with an allegedly fine mind, cannot forsee into the future, AND look at the past, as to your actions, and throw it all away, by spitting on your 2nd chance----did you just think, your H, would do nothing----and please DO NOT TELL ME---you had no control, you had all the control you needed!!!!!!!!


----------



## BjornFree

turnera said:


> I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


The only reason people don't see her as a remorseful ww is due to her own actions. I don't think we are in a place where we can judge or we indeed have the right to judge whether someone is worthy of a reconciliation.

The cold hard truth is, she may have come with noble intentions
of helping her husband heal but what she did was throw him a bone while she continued her tryst. And none of her actions that were documented in the posts since then would inspire a person who is not needy to reconcile with her. 

No one, not even the most remorseful of WSs is worthy of a reconciliation. If her husband does reconcile with her, it will be for his own reasons and because he chooses to do so. And honestly, if a ww can understand their spouses's pain enough to acknowledge that they are not good enough to have a relationship with the BS, that right there is remorse.


----------



## shazam

turnera said:


> You are mind reading and projecting. According to your premise, every 20 year old guy wants to hook up with older women.


No 20 year old guy is going to fall in love with a married older woman with a kid, period. Not all younger men want to hook up with older women, but I guarantee the taboo nature of this played a role in his pursuit and many guys won't say no to sex. It's just hard for me to believe she is so naive. Ooh a 21 yr old said he loved you. and...? I also think it's wrong fer her husband to treat him as if he was a peer, or a mature adult. I mean she had what four chances. :scratchhead: It just makes no sense, did she imagine being with him forever? I mean cheating is one thing, but with a boy, come on...


----------



## lionsguy22

I think the bridge is burned. I wouldn't want to be a husband wondering every time I kissed my wife where her mouth was, while I was at work.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

BjornFree said:


> The only reason people don't see her as a remorseful ww is due to her own actions. I don't think we are in a place where we can judge or we indeed have the right to judge whether someone is worthy of a reconciliation.
> 
> The cold hard truth is, she may have come with noble intentions
> of helping her husband heal but what she did was throw him a bone while she continued her tryst. And none of her actions that were documented in the posts since then would inspire a person who is not needy to reconcile with her.
> 
> No one, not even the most remorseful of WSs is worthy of a reconciliation. If her husband does reconcile with her, it will be for his own reasons and because he chooses to do so. And honestly, if a ww can understand their spouses's pain enough to acknowledge that they are not good enough to have a relationship with the BS, that right there is remorse.




I agree, no one deserves forgiveness or reconciliation. I do want to clarify however, that I did NOT continue my tryst after I began posting here. I'm not sure how that became the perception. I did LIE about my past actions after posting here, but my contact with OM was ended.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It wasn't a phone - it was a typed conversation on Skype. OM would not answer the video call... said he was with family. So I never spoke to OM or corresponded with him in any way. I sat quietly with my BH because I knew it had to be crushing to him to not get the confrontation/response that he was seeking. What can I say to that? I just wanted him to know I was there and supporting him as he attempted to interact with OM.


When I raised this question I had a specific thing in mind, and your answers don't help me to decide if I was out of line. So I am going to put out a horrible thought here. 

Really horrible, but you have to confront it.

I read "(sigh) done" not as sorrow or regret, but as contempt for Matt. "Your wife does what I want..who are you to tell me what to do?"

Could this be what he meant? If so, what are you going to do to stop him coming back and establishing his dominance again in a few months? I think you have to assume you need more than your own willpower for this.

Sorry, horrible question. But Matt is already worried about this. It needs to be addressed.


----------



## warlock07

turnera said:


> Consistently - for a period of a couple months. Again, no different than any other cheater in the middle of an affair.
> 
> I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


You like rile up people, don't you ? You do this quite a bit.

Did you read Matt's thread ?

We are not here to decide if they get to reconcile. It is actually funny to see people argue about it. 

Matt already made that decision. The BS makes the decision.. People just support the BS decision, whether it is R or D. You cannot go on pestering the BS to divorce his wife or the other way around.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> When I raised this question I had a specific thing in mind, and your answers don't help me to decide if I was out of line. So I am going to put out a horrible thought here.
> 
> Really horrible, but you have to confront it.
> 
> I read "(sigh) done" not as sorrow or regret, but as contempt for Matt. "Your wife does what I want..who are you to tell me what to do?"
> 
> Hmmm... that's an interesting interpretation. It doesn't jive with what I know of OM, but much of my perceptions of him could be and likely are false.
> 
> Could this be what he meant? If so, what are you going to do to stop him coming back and establishing his dominance again in a few months? I think you have to assume you need more than your own willpower for this.
> 
> I agree with you. That's why I am working on my transparency and accountability not only to my husband, but to my family and friends. I only need enough willpower to call Matt if/when he shows up again. After I reach out for that help, people will be there to help me stay on that path. When it happened before, I hadn't even considered it a possibility that he would return looking for me. I panicked and was still "confused" about the emotional tie I felt with him. I don't feel that way now. So I think the likelihood of me being able to make that first call to Matt is much, much higher. I was home alone when OM replied to the Skype account. And I had no problems IMMEDIATELY texting Matt to come home and deal with it. I also have friends who now know the gory details, and are willing to support me as I try to make better choices and changes in me. So I am nowhere near as self-isolated as I was after D-Day 1.
> 
> Sorry, horrible question. But Matt is already worried about this. It needs to be addressed.


----------



## survivorwife

turnera said:


> I knew it! I KNEW that the reason you guys are so unceasingly hard on her and not on OTHER FWWs is this - she's not bawling her eyes out, willing to take her own life, telling her husband to go be without her as she is forever worthless. In other words, she still likes herself somewhat. And therefore, not worthy of reconciliation.


That would be an incorrect assumption. In a few of the cases here that I have read, it was at the BS's request that we refrain from being too harsh on their WS. Out of respect for the BS and his/her wishes, most people who support the BS respect that request and "hold their punches" and try to, gently as possible, express their concerns.

The OP's BS made no such request. Now that doesn't open things up for a free-for-all, however that does open things up for asking the hard questions and/or challenging the WS's perception of things. The OP in this situation is being addressed as a individual who cheated on her spouse.

And therein lies the difference between how SOME WS are treated here and how others may not be under that "special protection" as requested by their BS.


----------



## Wazza

How can it not jive with what you know of OM?

He knew you were married and still took you. Your submission to his force was a big issue for Matt, he wrote about it at length.

He possibly deliberately disrupted that romantic scenario Matt had set up in the next room.

For part of the time at least it appears he was with both you and his girlfriend.

I infer that he boasted about nailing you from some of what I read.

Not a lot of evidence that he cares about your happiness there, or much else besides himself.


----------



## Wazza

survivorwife said:


> That would be an incorrect assumption. In a few of the cases here that I have read, it was at the BS's request that we refrain from being too harsh on their WS. Out of respect for the BS and his/her wishes, most people who support the BS respect that request and "hold their punches" and try to, gently as possible, express their concerns.
> 
> The OP's BS made no such request. Now that doesn't open things up for a free-for-all, however that does open things up for asking the hard questions and/or challenging the WS's perception of things. The OP in this situation is being addressed as a individual who cheated on her spouse.
> 
> And therein lies the difference between how SOME WS are treated here and how others may not be under that "special protection" as requested by their BS.


I do think people often cross the line from asking hard questions to gratuitous beating up. Including some here.

I have no interest in beating up Mrs M. If she has a conscience she is going to beat herself up. And if not, she is a lost cause. We can't change that. We can only give what help we can, which does include constructive use of hard questions.


----------



## WyshIknew

Wazza said:


> How can it not jive with what you know of OM?
> 
> He knew you were married and still took you. Your submission to his force was a big issue for Matt, he wrote about it at length.
> 
> He possibly deliberately disrupted that romantic scenario Matt had set up in the next room.
> 
> For part of the time at least it appears he was with both you and his girlfriend.
> 
> I infer that he boasted about nailing you from some of what I read.
> 
> Not a lot of evidence that he cares about your happiness there, or much else besides himself.




I don't have the experience and eloquence of some of you guys. But my own feeling is that until Mrs M can view herself, OM and what they did with disgust. And voice her disgust and anger concerning the OM and the things he has done, including this "(sigh) done" shet, truthfully and honestly to Matt she is still stuck with deep down feelings for OM.

Instead we get stuff like.

I only need enough willpower to call Matt if/when he shows up again.

I am still semi-waiting for some sort of pull/craving for contact with OM to happen.


----------



## Wazza

WyshIknew said:


> I don't have the experience and eloquence of some of you guys. But my own feeling is that until Mrs M can view herself, OM and what they did with disgust. And voice her disgust and anger concerning the OM and the things he has done, including this "(sigh) done" shet, truthfully and honestly to Matt she is still stuck with deep down feelings for OM.
> 
> Instead we get stuff like.
> 
> I only need enough willpower to call Matt if/when he shows up again.
> 
> I am still semi-waiting for some sort of pull/craving for contact with OM to happen.


Actually, I think this answer is about as good as one can expect. Not one I would like in Matt's shoes, but at least believable.

If Matt knows that, wherever she is likely to meet CJ, the is someone who will help her stay straight, that reduces the risk of a recurrence. She would have to seek it out for it to happen.

A frank admission of weakness is better than an assurance that she has the willpower when history shows otherwise, IMO.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Why is there so much of a focus on om? I can speak from experience, the constant talking and dissecting of his motives and actions and thoughts do NOTHING to diffuse what a WW feels for him. In fact, I found it made me miss that connection MORE. I kept thinking "what if what if what if."

No contact is no contact INCLUDING thinking of him incessantly, looking at pictures and reminiscing. Her HUSBAND is what is important here. Turning my thoughts and feelings to my marriage is what I work on every day. That is what gives me distance from Mike.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Thanks Decorum. I STRUGGLE. Bad days are really bad...like very low. When the loneliness creeps back, I have found redirecting my thoughts and doing something useful or nice for helps a lot.  In fact, I treated myself to some Starbucks today lol.


----------



## Wazza

AnnieAsh said:


> Why is there so much of a focus on om? I can speak from experience, the constant talking and dissecting of his motives and actions and thoughts do NOTHING to diffuse what a WW feels for him. In fact, I found it made me miss that connection MORE. I kept thinking "what if what if what if."
> 
> No contact is no contact INCLUDING thinking of him incessantly, looking at pictures and reminiscing. Her HUSBAND is what is important here. Turning my thoughts and feelings to my marriage is what I work on every day. That is what gives me distance from Mike.


Thanks Annie, definitely your opinion is very worthwhile here.

A big difference between you and MrsM is that you admitted the issue to your husband before he had reason to suspect and before it went physical, whereas MrsM went physical, was caught, lied, was caught again, lied again, then admitted more. It's hard even to be sure she came clean.

So, as I did on your thread, I thought it would help for MrsM to see OM in a bad light, albeit one i think it accurate. If that doesn't work, any other suggestions?

Remember, the big picture here is as much putting Matt at peace as helping MrsM to reconcile. I don't think he has made a final decision, but right now he plans to proceed with divorce and see if anything changes his mind.

Knowing that MrsM will not cheat again if CJ shows up is an issue that has to be confronted. Perhaps a post summarising what you are doing to be open for your husband would be useful here. I think you have maybe got more limits than MrsM has.

Mat and MrsM, Annie's thread is long, but well worth reading.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Decorum, Creme Brûlée latte mmmm! 

Wazza, to be honest, I don't necessarily see om in my case as BAD (as a human being). But I recognize that he was bad for ME, bad for my girls, bad for J. My marriage and its well being was not his top priority. The om in this case sounds like he's dumb, young and full of...I am sure you know the rhyme. He isn't the arch villain of the century. Hopefully when he grows up, the gravity of his actions will hit him. 

Mrs M...well who really knows if she's lying? I don't know her. If she screws this up then maybe my advice will be useful to the next person? But it is frustrating for to see people talking about om and if he dumped her and how many orgasms she had. I am dumbfounded by all that talk! That is between her and her HUSBAND.

I've done so much reading in the last few months. Dr Harley says that the feelings for the other person might always linger, like a low burning flame. That's why high boundaries and 100% transparency are so vital. If contact is made the BS knows right away and the WS is supposed to have a plan just in case. 

I totally sound like an obnoxious know it all now lol


----------



## warlock07

You had some doubts about being polyamorous during R . What happened to that now ?

As much it hurts Matt, you still believe at some level that you loved the OM.(though you twist the words when you mention it so as not to offend the TAM crowd here). At the same time you did not entirely fall out of love with Matt either. (Sandwich )

So what about it ?


----------



## Acabado

> Hmmm... that's an interesting interpretation. It doesn't jive with what I know of OM, but much of my perceptions of him could be and likely are false


You don't get why Wazza's interpretation is very plausible? You need to start getting a grasp here. Since the very beggining I'm trying to help you and won't stop doing it so please, take this with the spirit it's delivered: not to shame you, to guilt you, to pusnish you.
OM is the guy tho c0ckblocked your husband in his own home! Not only that, this is the OM whom you offered yourself to him at any capacity he decided, submissively, you told him you were at his wishes. It's black over white in a message you sent him. Also you fulfilled his sexual fantasies online and later in campus, so it's not only words or chatting but actions. Of course he was that entitled, he was superman, he felt your owner, over Matt, even over yourself because you told him so and because you showed it. Because he knew, and pardon my french, you were p00ssy liquid since he kissed you, likely way before that (that's why he decided to do it).
You should start geting rid of the celofan and the channel and see and smell the big pile.

Well, I see wazza already answered you. My bad.


----------



## Acabado

Wazza said:


> So, as I did on your thread, I thought it would help for MrsM to see OM in a bad light, albeit one i think it accurate. If that doesn't work, any other suggestions?


I don't think it's the issue. The issue is seeing him with both feet in the ground. A more accurate, realistic light. Not in a bad light per se.
Also, Annie, the reality of you EA and this situation is abismal. And this OM's audacity is well... Don't even compare. Tons of idealizing, romantizzing, fantasy, magical thinking in the meat of it. Which need to be broken asap.


----------



## Shaggy

AnnieAsh said:


> Dr Harley says that the feelings for the other person might always linger, like a low burning flame. That's why high boundaries and 100% transparency are so vital. If contact is made the BS knows right away and the WS is supposed to have a plan just in case.


If true, then I would not want to R, because it's a false R. Especially in this case where the WS was caught by the BS and the WS lied and even escallated the affair.

The OM is 50% of the reason why her little boy with grow in a broken home. She honestly needs to hate him, but what I read at the moment sounds like her putting off actually going there. Instead the OP seems to be waxing on about her surprise at how she feels - not that she feel anger or hatred or remorse or anything else - she seems to be neutral.

And that sets of my spidey sense because it could well be that she is either in denial, lying, or putting off accepting that he's gone. It could well be that if he was alone with her in a room, and made a move she'd open her arms and accept him. 

just like when she just saw him and it voided the first NC, I can't help but think she's assuming that because she's not currently pining for him, that means she wouldn't fall right back into submitting to his demands the first opportunity that she found herself with him.

Her actually reporting feeling bad is the first major emotion she's reported here about anything. Which seems odd since she described early on her connect to Matt was so strong originally, and the OM even more so. To go from someone who talked about being ruled by feelings, to someone just is just Meh, seems off and suspect.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> You don't get why Wazza's interpretation is very plausible? You need to start getting a grasp here. Since the very beggining I'm trying to help you and won't stop doing it so please, take this with the spirit it's delivered: not to shame you, to guilt you, to pusnish you.
> OM is the guy tho c0ckblocked your husband in his own home! Not only that, this is the OM whom you offered yourself to him at any capacity he decided, submissively, you told him you were at his wishes. It's black over white in a message you sent him. Also you fulfilled his sexual fantasies online and later in campus, so it's not only words or chatting but actions. Of course he was that entitled, he was superman, he felt your owner, over Matt, even over yourself because you told him so and because you showed it. Because he knew, and pardon my french, you were p00ssy liquid since he kissed you, likely way before that (that's why he decided to do it).
> You should start geting rid of the celofan and the channel and see and smell the big pile.
> 
> Well, I see wazza already answered you. My bad.


Not your bad at all....you said it much better than me.

MrsM, I am not throwing this in gratuitously....from what Matt has posted on his thread I think he is already worried about these thoughts Acabado has described. If you have not already discussed this, you should. Though it will be a painful conversation.

Because if this interpretation is right, when he decides he wants to fvck you again, he will come back.


----------



## Wazza

Shaggy said:


> If true, then I would not want to R, because it's a false R. Especially in this case where the WS was caught by the BS and the WS lied and even escallated the affair.
> 
> The OM is 50% of the reason why her little boy with grow in a broken home. She honestly needs to hate him, but what I read at the moment sounds like her putting off actually going there. Instead the OP seems to be waxing on about her surprise at how she feels - not that she feel anger or hatred or remorse or anything else - she seems to be neutral.
> 
> And that sets of my spidey sense because it could well be that she is either in denial, lying, or putting off accepting that he's gone. It could well be that if he was alone with her in a room, and made a move she'd open her arms and accept him.
> 
> just like when she just saw him and it voided the first NC, I can't help but think she's assuming that because she's not currently pining for him, that means she wouldn't fall right back into submitting to his demands the first opportunity that she found herself with him.
> 
> Her actually reporting feeling bad is the first major emotion she's reported here about anything. Which seems odd since she described early on her connect to Matt was so strong originally, and the OM even more so. To go from someone who talked about being ruled by feelings, to someone just is just Meh, seems off and suspect.


But Shaggy you never want to reconcile !! 

Being serious, I imagine that even if she ends up alone, MrsM may still feel an attraction to both Matt and CJ. I'd had the experience of meeting an old flame a few times, and in at least one case there was still a very definite attraction. Better to recognise it and manage it than leave it to explode out of control.

Or Matt could go and find someone else who doesn't have that history, but how? He is 37, everyone his own age is going to have relationship history, someone else they had feelings for. And if you found a woman in her thirties who had not had a relationship....well that is a whole other set of questions.

None of that addresses the emotions you are talking about Shaggy. They are real, and Matt has to decide if he can deal with them. But they would not be my main concern in wondering if this relationship can be fixed.


----------



## Shaggy

Wazza said:


> But Shaggy you never want to reconcile !!


BTW, I do want families to stay together, the children deserve a family and a home. So I support R , BUT is must a real R. The WS must work like a dog to make the marriage they abandoned and betrayed work. The WS needs to put at least as much effort into making the marriage work as they put into terminating it with the AP.

And that's where my problems with a lot of R's discuss here are. The WS doesn't put the energy or effort into the BS and the marriage. Instead it turns into a journey of self discovery and me me me me me me. And then when the BS calls them out the half effort, the WS calls the BS impatient, and angry and unable to accept R.

When the WS basically thinks that all they have to really do it stop cheating to fix the marriage, it will fail.

when the WS thinks by stopping seeing the AP, that they've ended the affair and in time it should all go back to being the way it was, it will fail

It will fail because it isn't enough. The cheating wounded the soul of the BS and that needs a lot of attention and TLC to heal. 

I honestly get the sense that the OP is in a game of attrition. If she can just get Matt to do normal family stuff long enough, then effectively she's back in the family. Right now she's in the doghouse, but if she holds her ground and maintains daily contact she'll be back full time.

the problem is that at no point is the reason why she cheated in the first place fixed.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Shaggy said:


> If true, then I would not want to R, because it's a false R. Especially in this case where the WS was caught by the BS and the WS lied and even escallated the affair.
> 
> The OM is 50% of the reason why her little boy with grow in a broken home. She honestly needs to hate him, but what I read at the moment sounds like her putting off actually going there. Instead the OP seems to be waxing on about her surprise at how she feels - not that she feel anger or hatred or remorse or anything else - she seems to be neutral.


If there is no contact, the WS is open, honest, diligent in transparency, there is a romantic relationship between the recovering BS and WS, how is that a false reconciliation? It is almost the same situation if you come across an ex girlfriend. The romantic feelings were THERE and existed and any contact could bring them back to life. I've pored over the material a LOT.

How can she hate him right now if she is in the middle of the fog? The hate very well may come (though I would think apathy would be better than a passionate hatred.) On top of that, she doesn't owe any of us an explanation of her feelings for this dude. I don't even wanna know! I want to know what she is doing for her husband and child.

I can only go by what she says. I think it is unfair to expect utter and complete hatred right now. If her feelings flip-flopped so easily, I'd find that a little odd. I find it easier to be disgusted with MYSELF and my actions, than those of the om in my case. 

Sorry Mrs M, for talking around you like that.


----------



## Wazza

Shaggy said:


> BTW, I do want families to stay together, the children deserve a family and a home. So I support R , BUT is must a real R. The WS must work like a dog to make the marriage they abandoned and betrayed work. The WS needs to put at least as much effort into making the marriage work as they put into terminating it with the AP.
> 
> And that's where my problems with a lot of R's discuss here are. The WS doesn't put the energy or effort into the BS and the marriage. Instead it turns into a journey of self discovery and me me me me me me. And then when the BS calls them out the half effort, the WS calls the BS impatient, and angry and unable to accept R.
> 
> When the WS basically thinks that all they have to really do it stop cheating to fix the marriage, it will fail.
> 
> when the WS thinks by stopping seeing the AP, that they've ended the affair and in time it should all go back to being the way it was, it will fail
> 
> It will fail because it isn't enough. The cheating wounded the soul of the BS and that needs a lot of attention and TLC to heal.
> 
> I honestly get the sense that the OP is in a game of attrition. If she can just get Matt to do normal family stuff long enough, then effectively she's back in the family. Right now she's in the doghouse, but if she holds her ground and maintains daily contact she'll be back full time.
> 
> the problem is that at no point is the reason why she cheated in the first place fixed.


I must not stir you!

I hope she doesn't play the attrition card as per your second last para, because I agree with you that permanent reconciliation needs more.

Having said that, expecting her to be perfect now is ridiculous...she has a lot to learn.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> I don't think it's the issue. The issue is seeing him with both feet in the ground. A more accurate, realistic light. Not in a bad light per se.
> Also, Annie, the reality of you EA and this situation is abismal. And this OM's audacity is well... Don't even compare. Tons of idealizing, romantizzing, fantasy, magical thinking in the meat of it. Which need to be broken asap.


Annie is probably closer to MrsM's head than we are. Annie came here in the beginnings of an EA. If MrsM had done the same, this might have all been avoided.

Sad.


----------



## Acabado

AnnieAsh said:


> I can only go by what she says. I think it is unfair to expect utter and complete hatred right now. If her feelings flip-flopped so easily, I'd find that a little odd. I find it easier to be disgusted with MYSELF and my actions, than those of the om in my case.


100 % agree with this. Then she should start actively stop feeding the monster, challenging this completely idealized image of OM.

IE
She believes (she claims she doesn't know now, but she still believes) OM was in love with her. How much in love can be a man who behaves the way he did? I mean... "cheating" on her with his GF, sharing their secrets with his buddies... doesn't this add up with the image on anyone in love? Maybe in lust?
The idea OM respected her (her stated choice of remain with Matt)... how does it add up with showing up at her office after he contributed to the dismissal of her marriage after DDay1? He was sent a NC letter, he was aware of her discosure, that they were busted over the cibersex... knew clearly it could cost her the marriage, half the custody of her child, her reputation as the campus cougar, as a teacher, the very public embarrasement... Was it love or was it lust?

Respect anywere?


----------



## BjornFree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I agree, no one deserves forgiveness or reconciliation. I do want to clarify however, that I did NOT continue my tryst after I began posting here. I'm not sure how that became the perception. I did LIE about my past actions after posting here, but my contact with OM was ended.


MrsM you don't really have to convince the people on here about anything. All I did in my post was support your husband's decision of sitting on the fence rather than jump into reconciliation. Besides my post was in reply to turnera's where she stated that people on here were bashing you needlessly. 

The thing is when you cry wolf too often no one's ever going to believe you, more importantly your husband is not going to believe you. And you simply cannot expect to gain that trust back, you can hope that they will but you can't expect it. My post was to highlight just that.

Keep doing what you're doing and hope for the best.


----------



## BjornFree

Acabado said:


> I don't think it's the issue. The issue is seeing him with both feet in the ground. A more accurate, realistic light. Not in a bad light per se.
> Also, Annie, the reality of you EA and this situation is abismal. And this OM's audacity is well... Don't even compare. Tons of idealizing, romantizzing, fantasy, magical thinking in the meat of it. Which need to be broken asap.


More than the audacity, this kid knew how to pull her strings and he played her perfectly. I read somewhere( on this forum itself I think) that "sex is the hard currency of an affair" and its the truth. And unless MrsM realizes that she was conveniently used and tossed aside she is always going to see the OM as a romantic hero. And for most WS this realization comes too little too late.


----------



## jim123

AnnieAsh said:


> Decorum, Creme Brûlée latte mmmm!
> 
> Wazza, to be honest, I don't necessarily see om in my case as BAD (as a human being). But I recognize that he was bad for ME, bad for my girls, bad for J. My marriage and its well being was not his top priority. The om in this case sounds like he's dumb, young and full of...I am sure you know the rhyme. He isn't the arch villain of the century. Hopefully when he grows up, the gravity of his actions will hit him.
> 
> Mrs M...well who really knows if she's lying? I don't know her. If she screws this up then maybe my advice will be useful to the next person? But it is frustrating for to see people talking about om and if he dumped her and how many orgasms she had. I am dumbfounded by all that talk! That is between her and her HUSBAND.
> 
> I've done so much reading in the last few months. Dr Harley says that the feelings for the other person might always linger, like a low burning flame. That's why high boundaries and 100% transparency are so vital. If contact is made the BS knows right away and the WS is supposed to have a plan just in case.
> 
> I totally sound like an obnoxious know it all now lol


I do not think the OM is bad just a typical 21 year old. The aggessor in the affair was the Mrs. She is 15 years his senior, She had a position of autshority and took advantage. She, in the end, just had to do what she did. I remember her saying that she was confused and it was the only way to end the confusion.

She does not really want a relationship with the OM. She messed up his life too. He has lost friends, He is dealing with the issues because he was stupid enough to take her advances. He has a BS looking for him. Not the issues a normal 21 year old should be dealing with. She is the one who made a vow, she is the one married, not him. Should he know better, yes but this is on Mrs. Robinson.

Now that she is done him she is ready to commit to Matt and her son. Lucky them.

I do not sense empathy within her. She is reacting to Matt moving on and not love for him. My opinion.

She is here on her own accord. She can not log on again if she decides to do so. There is nothing she can say really, it is what Matt says that will show us. Right now she has been the model wife. Only time will tell.

I do appreciate your posts as they give balance to much of what is posted. Please keep giving your thoughts.


----------



## BjornFree

AnnieAsh said:


> Thanks Decorum. I STRUGGLE. Bad days are really bad...like very low. When the loneliness creeps back, I have found redirecting my thoughts and doing something useful or nice for helps a lot.  In fact, I treated myself to some Starbucks today lol.


And some men and women are just not willing to put themselves in a situation where they have to stay with a person who's struggling with all these feelings. Because as ego driven as it sounds, it almost feels like you're "settling" for your husband, at least I would feel this way. Who wants to be second best in someone else's life? Even if the WS claims otherwise, this is how a BS would feel, I think. Therefore some people would do the only sensible thing, which would be to let them go and move on.


----------



## AnnieAsh

BjornFree said:


> And some men and women are just not willing to put themselves in a situation where they have to stay with a person who's struggling with all these feelings. Because as ego driven as it sounds, it almost feels like you're "settling" for your husband, at least I would feel this way. Who wants to be second best in someone else's life? Even if the WS claims otherwise, this is how a BS would feel, I think. Therefore some people would do the only sensible thing, which would be to let them go and move on.


I don't want to hijack someone else's thread but...are you telling me that I feel like I am settling for my husband? Why on earth would you make a supposition like that without knowing who I am or what I do daily to prove myself to J? Being lonely in a situation like I am is normal. I am left home alone for 12 to 16 hrs a day. This is the life of an agent's wife. Do you have any experience with that?


----------



## larry.gray

It's not a question if you are settling for your husband. The question is if your husband thinks you are settling for him.


----------



## AnnieAsh

He's sitting here next to me, watching movie trailers. LOL I'll ask.


----------



## dogman

AnnieAsh wrote;
I've done so much reading in the last few months. Dr Harley says that the feelings for the other person might always linger, like a low burning flame. That's why high boundaries and 100% transparency are so vital. If contact is made the BS knows right away and the WS is supposed to have a plan just in case. 
End quote

I disagree with this. I think, if you are 100 % for your marriage then you would view the OM as a murderer there to murder something you care about. Your view of him should change to disgust and anger and you should feel shame for having been tricked into thinking otherwise.

This whole thing about caring for him and he is not bad just bad for me is bullsh!t. It's a cop out so you don't feel guilty for carrying a torch.

If I found this out about my wife I would tell her to not do me any favors and go to him.


----------



## WyshIknew

dogman said:


> AnnieAsh wrote;
> I've done so much reading in the last few months. Dr Harley says that the feelings for the other person might always linger, like a low burning flame. That's why high boundaries and 100% transparency are so vital. If contact is made the BS knows right away and the WS is supposed to have a plan just in case.
> End quote
> 
> I disagree with this. I think, if you are 100 % for your marriage then you would view the OM as a murderer there to murder something you care about. Your view of him should change to disgust and anger and you should feel shame for having been tricked into thinking otherwise.
> 
> This whole thing about caring for him and he is not bad just bad for me is bullsh!t. It's a cop out so you don't feel guilty for carrying a torch.
> 
> If I found this out about my wife I would tell her to not do me any favors and go to him.


Agree with this.

And Annie you never came back.

Did your husband say yes, deep down he felt you were settling?


----------



## remorseful strayer

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Many of you have been reading my BH's thread, Three Strikes. You know my web of lies has completely fallen apart over the last 5 days. It has been overwhelmingly shaming and painful for both of us. I deleted my original thread without reading any of the additional comments since the last exposure. It was cowardly, and I truly believe people here are trying to help us. So I've come back after some sleep, to try to restart. Here's the gory details.
> -----------------------


I don't have time to read the entire thread. As a strayer, I know that I did love my wife, so when caught I ended the cheating immediately when caught. 

The fact that you did not is not a good sign and the reason why your husband is having so much difficulty trusting you again. 

It was lies and more lies even after caught. 

Also you mention feeling shame rather than guilt. 

That is not a good thing, either. 

Here is an article excerpt that explains why shame is not the same as guilt and why I am concerned that you only mentioned feeling shame and not guilt. 


The Difference Between Guilt and Shame | After Psychotherapy


As a therapist, I find this distinction to be important and useful. Many deeply troubled people have very little capacity to feel guilt, for example. In order to feel guilt about the harm you may have done to somebody else, you must recognize him or her as a distinct individual, to begin with. Thus a person who struggles with separation and merger issues might not feel true guilt even if he or she were to use that word to describe a feeling. Many people who display narcissistic behavior often suffer from profound feelings of shame but have little authentic concern for other people; they don’t tend to feel genuinely guilty. This explains why an authentic sense of guilt rarely appears in narcissistic personality disorder and anti-social personality disorder: guilt depends upon the ability to intuit how someone else might feel and as a result to experience remorse for the pain one has caused.

When shame is especially toxic, it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else. In such cases, idealization often comes into play: other people are then viewed as perfect, the lucky ones who have the ideal shame-free life we crave; powerful envy may be the (unconscious) result. In those cases, we might take pleasure in hurting the person we envy rather than feeling guilty about it. I discussed this dynamic in
detail in my post about why we love and hate celebrities.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Matt and I talked last night about me not hating or being angry at OM. He astutely pointed out that I am still in a position where I am trying to take full blame for the affair. It's hard for me to look at the choices that I've made and attempt to lay even partial blame somewhere else. That feels like copping out or trying to minimize the heinousness of my own choices. 

Also, I continue to feel like I am asked questions about my feelings in the past and then they are interpreted as my feelings in the present. I can't say that I hate OM right now. What I am trying to achieve is no feeling for him at all. He doesn't deserve the energy and thought it would take from me to actively hate him. That energy and thought I want to devote to my family and myself as we try to heal from this in any way possible.

Past tense, during the affair: I believed I loved him, and he told me he loved me.

Present tense, after the affair: I believe I felt emotional attachment, infatuation, lust, but did not feel real love, in how I have come to understand and define love. He did not love me. Neither of us had the other's best interest in mind. Both of us were taking from the relationship what we wanted. 

I don't feel I am playing a game of "attrition" with Matt. (I had to look up the meaning of that word.) I am making necessary changes in my life and who I am as a person to go forward from this as a healthier individual and better partner. When he wants to talk, we talk. If he asks me to leave him alone, I respect that. Do I want him to recognize the changes I'm making? Of course. Am I haranguing him and constantly trying to point out those changes? I don't think so. I am just trying to live each day around my son and Matt as the best person I can be right now.

ETA: If OM showed up again and deliberately broke NC after my written request to him and his family, I would be incredibly angry. But as it stands, although I am upset he did that the first time - *I* was the one who then allowed that contact to derail me and what I was trying to accomplish in my marriage. So I will ALWAYS have far more anger/hatred for my own failing and choice in that area than I could ever maintain for him.


----------



## AnnieAsh

WyshIknew said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> And Annie you never came back.
> 
> Did your husband say yes, deep down he felt you were settling?


Of course I didn't come back last night lol. We had a nice night in bed and he has agreed to bake cookies with me for our gifts to neighbors and teachers, after some convincing. 

We talked about the whole "settling" thing and he says the thought never crossed his mind. He looked really confused about the whole thing. He's my husband, the father of my children, of course he's the best man in the world for me (my thoughts).

As far as Dr Harley's theory, you can agree or not. He explained it like this: an alcoholic can look at booze with disgust because it cost him his life/health/wife, but the moment he stops attending meetings or enters a BAR, the old feelings come back. Which is where the boundaries and precautions come in. 

We are having a lot of success following the program *shrug* my husband likes it because we have a schedule of times to spend together, he has a list of things that make me feel loved, and he gets the 100% transparency and honesty that HE needs. 

I have a shorter thread somewhere, if there are more questions. I am really sorry, Mrs M for butting in again. Hugs to you and your family.


----------



## dogman

AnnieAsh said:


> Of course I didn't come back last night lol. We had a nice night in bed and he has agreed to bake cookies with me for our gifts to neighbors and teachers, after some convincing.
> 
> We talked about the whole "settling" thing and he says the thought never crossed his mind. He looked really confused about the whole thing. He's my husband, the father of my children, of course he's the best man in the world for me (my thoughts).
> 
> As far as Dr Harley's theory, you can agree or not. He explained it like this: an alcoholic can look at booze with disgust because it cost him his life/health/wife, but the moment he stops attending meetings or enters a BAR, the old feelings come back. Which is where the boundaries and precautions come in.
> 
> We are having a lot of success following the program *shrug* my husband likes it because we have a schedule of times to spend together, he has a list of things that make me feel loved, and he gets the 100% transparency and honesty that HE needs.
> 
> I have a shorter thread somewhere, if there are more questions. I am really sorry, Mrs M for butting in again. Hugs to you and your family.


Sorry but I don't want there to be anyone out there that if my wife is alone with I have to worry about her self control problems. I know she feels the same way in regard to me and any other woman.

Mrs M and Annie maybe your goal should be to have anger toward the OM for almost ruining your life. If you can't muster that then be mad he almost ruined your kids life. If that doesn't do it I don't know what will. Or you can cop out and say your trying to feel nothing toward him. As a husband I want you to hate him. Or at least be mad as he!! At him. And I want you to think he's a bad person for messing with a marriage. 
I like how Regret and ChangingMe have handled it. Ask their husbands, I bet they agree.
JMHO


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I can't say that I hate OM right now. What I am trying to achieve is no feeling for him at all. He doesn't deserve the energy and thought it would take from me to actively hate him. That energy and thought I want to devote to my family and myself as we try to heal from this in any way possible.


This is perfectly OK, the real goal; complete indiference (let's face it you are far far away from it, and actualy in the opposite direction of hate). As I wrote I don't want you to hate him (albeit I'm sure you will hate him at a point in the future), I want you to get out of the idealized image you *still* have about the whole affair and, yes, about OM too. I can even understand partialy the "taking all the blame" thing you wrote.
And I said "still" because it became obvious after realizing you are not able to interpret "correctly" (fog free) OM's response to your husband chat message. I was adressing a concrete point.
So my train of thoughts was/is... you claim finnaly "see" Matt's devastation, OM's response was very close to laught at him again by adding that '(sigh)', which obviously put another twist of the knife, but your response to this new twist is "meh", so much for "seeing" his pain, sharing it, empatizing. My conclusion is you still need to get rid of the pink colored glasses in order to fully get the impact on Matt. It's necessary. At time itself fix nothing, you have to make a good use of it.
Annie have her own strategy, refocus, accepting life long lingering feelings (as I have once in a while about booze nad drugs), my wife (who fell madly in love with OM) embraced a different one, the only one I could tolerate, which was to dismantle all the romance out of the affair and shine light into the sordidness. I couldn't see another way If I had to remain with her. I won't stay with a woman carrying a torch. Ever. I toke it as my first priority before even considering R.


----------



## Acabado

There are different strategies¡, Harley have his priorities and I have mine. Many poeple share my thoughts abou it, even waywards, who realizes they must actively persue indiference: I know Harley discard it, priorice different things. Just as example, not you need to take it to heart, this is a tip post about the subjet from a WH who realized he still had work left after getting past the withdrawal phase:

*How to create emotional indifference to the AP* 

There does seem to be a trend on the WS side regarding the problem of getting over the affair. De-fogging for a better term. I held onto feelings for my xgf for some30 years and so I know what is meant by "not letting go" and a large part of my journey here was learning and dealing with "creating indifference" in my head and heart and so, I would like to share a bit of that hard earned knowledge. 
Creating indifference is not a simple 10 step action plan. For each WS, it may be a different process depending on the emotional investment that was put into the affair. The more you thought that you loved the AP, the harder the process will be. Some WS’s can throw their AP under the bus without nary a glance while others struggle to get the AP out of their hearts and minds for months. 
Yet while the process is individual to each WS, there is a process of detachment called creating indifference. Mind you, we are not talking about hating the AP, we are merely taking about an emotional void for the AP. Hating the AP for the affair is the same as self-hatred to ourselves because we were also in the affair. No, what you want to achieve is neutral. Who cares? Joe who? 
*Be accountable in this process* - You do get to control your mind, your thoughts and your actions. If you’re feeling depressed, then get some anti-depressants. If you’re thinking of the AP, then you need to stop and think of something else. Hard to think of the AP when your mind is focused on sorting out the sock drawer. 
*De-personalize the AP* - If you call your AP by their nickname then you are holding onto them too tight. Call them what they were. The Affair Partner. The two timing cheater. The person who had sex with you. They were the OM or OW, not your lover. They were perhaps being WS in their own marriages at the same time they pretended to be your love connection. 
*Stop romanticizing the affair* - No matter what the story, the simple truth is that using flowery language to cover it up doesn’t change the smell of the rotten affair. Be honest with yourself and use plain words to describe your time and your relationship. It was not rekindling the flames; it was a cheap and tawdry affair. It was not a reconnection of two lost souls, it was sweaty sex. It was not destiny or romantic, it was cheating on your spouse. 
- There's nothing romantic or special about cheating. The more you can do to de-romanticize it, the more quickly you'll reach indifference. Until then, you're still in the A in your head, and you will not be able to fully recover.
*Follow the advice you already know in your heart* - If you’re having problems wrapping your head around the issue of indifference, then perhaps it’s time to get to basics and remember what your learnt from Dr. Seuss. I’m sure that you remember the author of the Green Eggs and Ham classic book but the truth is that he was quite an observer of human nature and from him; we get this piece of wisdom. 
Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. You are the guy who'll decide where to go.
*View your AP without the rose colored glasses* – WS's often think of the AP with rose coloured glass’s and one of the first things we need to do is to take them off. See your AP for what they truly were. If they were so grand and so great, then why were they having an affair with a dumpy, lumpy middle aged middle class working stiff? Didn’t they have cellulite on their thighs too? Didn’t they burb? If you have to think of them as ugly and sweaty, then do it. A mental image of that will go a long way in demolishing the picture perfect image of them in our heads. 
- You can create sucky scenarios if you want - her yelling at you for not cleaning up after yourself. You can play loud music in the car so you don't think of her. Whatever. It doesn’t matter. Just don't contact her and if she contacts you, don't respond. We're all human beings. Without "sustenance", i.e., actual contact, all thoughts (good or bad) will fade in time. You will get there.
*Stop the memory game *- See reality for what it is. They cheated with you and the chances are they dumped you like a rock when the going got tough. So instead of pining and wishing and hoping and dreaming of another turn at the affair game, simply face reality and give it up. You will never get them and they only wanted you for sex or money or ego stroking. Remind yourself that your OP was no great friend- they helped you cheat on your spouse. . 
– you cannot afford to be constantly pining and moaning over a lost love. Unhealthy! Remind yourself that emotionally and mentally healthy people do not get romantically involved with people who are married. Remind yourself that love doesn't lie or deceive. Write this stuff down and read it a hundred times a day if you have to. 
*Tricks of the trade* - Wear a rubber band around your wrist and snap it- hard when your thoughts wander to the A or the OP. Be prepared for the pain! Visualize a stop sign when you got into one of those pining times. Learn how to shift your focus from OP and the A to your spouse when you notice your thoughts wandering. The purposeful shifting of your mental focus to your spouse should help you break the bad habit of thinking of the OP. 
*It takes time to get over them* – yes, not unlike the fact that it will take time for our spouses to heal, so it might take some time to reach indifference. You're likely going to go through stages of grief, no matter how much you just want it all to be fixed overnight. 
*Other things to do* – delete all of the memento’s that hold memories. That means emails and letters. That means CD’s or USB sticks of music. That means the sweater that she bought you or the coffee mug with his name on it. Everything, big or small has to go. It might be easier if you make a symbolic ceremony in the backyard fire pit with your spouse helping you burn this all. 
*Focus on the real important stuff *– When your mind wanders, then change the tempo of your thoughts. Call your spouse and talk to her. Talk to your kids or your therapist. Post here or read some more books from the WS reading list. Focusing on the affair and wishing for closure or one last kiss or anything like that is only taking you back into foggy land and you have to stay out of there. 
For example, I stopped using the phrase “buried and unresolved feelings” and replaced them with the much more honest definition of “a really piss poor method of coping with my prior emotional problems” when I was just starting to post about my affair. 
Of course you can get over the AP. People do this every day and every month and so can you. Yes there are temptations but I know that you can accomplish this. When in doubt, turn to SI and ask for help and support. Continue with baby steps each and every day and pretty soon the “feelings” will dissipate and you will reach emotional indifference to your AP.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> This is perfectly OK, the real goal; complete indiference (let's face it you are far far away from it, and actualy in the opposite direction of hate). As I wrote I don't want you to hate him (albeit I'm sure you will hate him at a point in the future), I want you to get out of the idealized image you *still* have about the whole affair and, yes, about OM too. I can even understand partialy the "taking all the blame" thing you wrote.
> And I said "still" because it became obvious after realizing you are not able to interpret "correctly" (fog free) OM's response to your husband chat message. I was adressing a concrete point.
> So my train of thoughts was/is... you claim finnaly "see" Matt's devastation, OM's response was very close to laught at him again by adding that '(sigh)', which obviously put another twist of the knife, but your response to this new twist is "meh", so much for "seeing" his pain, sharing it, empatizing. My conclusion is you still need to get rid of the pink colored glasses in order to fully get the impact on Matt. It's necessary. At time itself fix nothing, you have to make a good use of it.
> Annie have her own strategy, refocus, accepting life long lingering feelings (as I have once in a while about booze nad drugs), my wife (who fell madly in love with OM) embraced a different one, the only one I could tolerate, which was to dismantle all the romance out of the affair and shine light into the sordidness. I couldn't see another way If I had to remain with her. I won't stay with a woman carrying a torch. Ever. I toke it as my first priority before even considering R.



I'm sorry, but I still disagree with you on this typed conversation. I SAW how hard it was for Matt to have OM refuse to engage with him in a meaningful way. I have no idea how you can interpret my response as 'meh'? Because I sat quietly and tried to be a support to him? Because I don't have evidence from experience to apply a malicious intent to two typed words? If OM wanted to gloat or be contemptuous, he certainly had a LOT of other ammunition he could have thrown at my husband. I certainly gave him that.

I don't interpret his statement as contemptuous, because in the years I have known OM, I have never seen him exhibit open contempt for anyone ever. I interpret it as defeatist/evasive, which is is VERY capable of. OM will say and do pretty much whatever is necessary to exist through any given situation. He is very much a "survivor" in that sense. Not that he is overcoming anything, but that his focus is just getting to the next moment in life, passing through anything rocky that comes his way. So, I'd be more apt to characterize it as dismissive or something along those lines than contemptuous. He is a coward who never takes ownership of his actions and the effect on others. Period.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> There are different strategies¡, Harley have his priorities and I have mine. Many poeple share my thoughts abou it, even waywards, who realizes they must actively persue indiference: I know Harley discard it, priorice different things. Just as example, not you need to take it to heart, this is a tip post about the subjet from a WH who realized he still had work left after getting past the withdrawal phase:
> 
> *How to create emotional indifference to the AP*
> 
> There does seem to be a trend on the WS side regarding the problem of getting over the affair. De-fogging for a better term. I held onto feelings for my xgf for some30 years and so I know what is meant by "not letting go" and a large part of my journey here was learning and dealing with "creating indifference" in my head and heart and so, I would like to share a bit of that hard earned knowledge.
> Creating indifference is not a simple 10 step action plan. For each WS, it may be a different process depending on the emotional investment that was put into the affair. The more you thought that you loved the AP, the harder the process will be. Some WS’s can throw their AP under the bus without nary a glance while others struggle to get the AP out of their hearts and minds for months.
> Yet while the process is individual to each WS, there is a process of detachment called creating indifference. Mind you, we are not talking about hating the AP, we are merely taking about an emotional void for the AP. Hating the AP for the affair is the same as self-hatred to ourselves because we were also in the affair. No, what you want to achieve is neutral. Who cares? Joe who?
> *Be accountable in this process* - You do get to control your mind, your thoughts and your actions. If you’re feeling depressed, then get some anti-depressants. If you’re thinking of the AP, then you need to stop and think of something else. Hard to think of the AP when your mind is focused on sorting out the sock drawer.
> *De-personalize the AP* - If you call your AP by their nickname then you are holding onto them too tight. Call them what they were. The Affair Partner. The two timing cheater. The person who had sex with you. They were the OM or OW, not your lover. They were perhaps being WS in their own marriages at the same time they pretended to be your love connection.
> *Stop romanticizing the affair* - No matter what the story, the simple truth is that using flowery language to cover it up doesn’t change the smell of the rotten affair. Be honest with yourself and use plain words to describe your time and your relationship. It was not rekindling the flames; it was a cheap and tawdry affair. It was not a reconnection of two lost souls, it was sweaty sex. It was not destiny or romantic, it was cheating on your spouse.
> - There's nothing romantic or special about cheating. The more you can do to de-romanticize it, the more quickly you'll reach indifference. Until then, you're still in the A in your head, and you will not be able to fully recover.
> *Follow the advice you already know in your heart* - If you’re having problems wrapping your head around the issue of indifference, then perhaps it’s time to get to basics and remember what your learnt from Dr. Seuss. I’m sure that you remember the author of the Green Eggs and Ham classic book but the truth is that he was quite an observer of human nature and from him; we get this piece of wisdom.
> Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. You are the guy who'll decide where to go.
> *View your AP without the rose colored glasses* – WS's often think of the AP with rose coloured glass’s and one of the first things we need to do is to take them off. See your AP for what they truly were. If they were so grand and so great, then why were they having an affair with a dumpy, lumpy middle aged middle class working stiff? Didn’t they have cellulite on their thighs too? Didn’t they burb? If you have to think of them as ugly and sweaty, then do it. A mental image of that will go a long way in demolishing the picture perfect image of them in our heads.
> - You can create sucky scenarios if you want - her yelling at you for not cleaning up after yourself. You can play loud music in the car so you don't think of her. Whatever. It doesn’t matter. Just don't contact her and if she contacts you, don't respond. We're all human beings. Without "sustenance", i.e., actual contact, all thoughts (good or bad) will fade in time. You will get there.
> *Stop the memory game *- See reality for what it is. They cheated with you and the chances are they dumped you like a rock when the going got tough. So instead of pining and wishing and hoping and dreaming of another turn at the affair game, simply face reality and give it up. You will never get them and they only wanted you for sex or money or ego stroking. Remind yourself that your OP was no great friend- they helped you cheat on your spouse. .
> – you cannot afford to be constantly pining and moaning over a lost love. Unhealthy! Remind yourself that emotionally and mentally healthy people do not get romantically involved with people who are married. Remind yourself that love doesn't lie or deceive. Write this stuff down and read it a hundred times a day if you have to.
> *Tricks of the trade* - Wear a rubber band around your wrist and snap it- hard when your thoughts wander to the A or the OP. Be prepared for the pain! Visualize a stop sign when you got into one of those pining times. Learn how to shift your focus from OP and the A to your spouse when you notice your thoughts wandering. The purposeful shifting of your mental focus to your spouse should help you break the bad habit of thinking of the OP.
> *It takes time to get over them* – yes, not unlike the fact that it will take time for our spouses to heal, so it might take some time to reach indifference. You're likely going to go through stages of grief, no matter how much you just want it all to be fixed overnight.
> *Other things to do* – delete all of the memento’s that hold memories. That means emails and letters. That means CD’s or USB sticks of music. That means the sweater that she bought you or the coffee mug with his name on it. Everything, big or small has to go. It might be easier if you make a symbolic ceremony in the backyard fire pit with your spouse helping you burn this all.
> *Focus on the real important stuff *– When your mind wanders, then change the tempo of your thoughts. Call your spouse and talk to her. Talk to your kids or your therapist. Post here or read some more books from the WS reading list. Focusing on the affair and wishing for closure or one last kiss or anything like that is only taking you back into foggy land and you have to stay out of there.
> For example, I stopped using the phrase “buried and unresolved feelings” and replaced them with the much more honest definition of “a really piss poor method of coping with my prior emotional problems” when I was just starting to post about my affair.
> Of course you can get over the AP. People do this every day and every month and so can you. Yes there are temptations but I know that you can accomplish this. When in doubt, turn to SI and ask for help and support. Continue with baby steps each and every day and pretty soon the “feelings” will dissipate and you will reach emotional indifference to your AP.


I think these are great concrete ideas. I was using many of them without knowing it, and there's more that I can benefit from. Thanks.


----------



## warlock07

warlock07 said:


> You had some doubts about being polyamorous during R after Dday1. What happened to that now ?
> 
> As much it hurts Matt, you still believe at some level that you loved the OM.(though you twist the words when you mention it so as not to offend the TAM crowd here). At the same time you did not entirely fall out of love with Matt either. (Sandwich scenario )
> 
> So what about it ?



ahem!!


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm sorry, but I still disagree with you on this typed conversation. I SAW how hard it was for Matt to have OM refuse to engage with him in a meaningful way. I have no idea how you can interpret my response as 'meh'? Because I sat quietly and tried to be a support to him? Because I don't have evidence from experience to apply a malicious intent to two typed words? If OM wanted to gloat or be contemptuous, he certainly had a LOT of other ammunition he could have thrown at my husband. I certainly gave him that.
> 
> I don't interpret his statement as contemptuous, because in the years I have known OM, I have never seen him exhibit open contempt for anyone ever. I interpret it as defeatist/evasive, which is is VERY capable of. OM will say and do pretty much whatever is necessary to exist through any given situation. He is very much a "survivor" in that sense. Not that he is overcoming anything, but that his focus is just getting to the next moment in life, passing through anything rocky that comes his way. So, I'd be more apt to characterize it as dismissive or something along those lines than contemptuous. He is a coward who never takes ownership of his actions and the effect on others. Period.


MrsM, you have the context of the entire conversation, plus knowing OM. We don't. So ultimately you have to decide what he meant.

That said, there are two ways to show contempt. One is to say hurtful things. The other is to treat someone as so insignificant they don't matter.

You and Matt will have discussed the romantic scenario he set up in the spare room that OM ruined. Did the OM do that deliberately?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

warlock07 said:


> ahem!!


I did feel like I loved both my husband and OM during the affair, but I know after that it wasn't real love for OM. I don't think I am truly poly amorous, or I would have felt it for more people over the course of my life. I felt strong emotion for both individuals because they were each meeting emotional needs of mine. I was cake-eating, instead of giving my husband the opportunity to meet all my needs as I should have. I would never have even been in a position to consider polyamory if I hadn't allowed OM in emotionally. So it was a delusion, as I was seeking answers about a situation I created through poor boundaries and communication with Matt. I allowed a vulnerability to foster, and OM was in position to take advantage of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> MrsM, you have the context of the entire conversation, plus knowing OM. We don't. So ultimately you have to decide what he meant.
> 
> That said, there are two ways to show contempt. One is to say hurtful things. The other is to treat someone as so insignificant they don't matter.
> 
> You and Matt will have discussed the romantic scenario he set up in the spare room that OM ruined. Did the OM do that deliberately?


Not to my knowledge. When I found out what had happened that afternoon, and asked OM not to return that day, he seemed genuinely surprised/sorry for disrupting that. He claimed he noticed some extra items in the spare room, but thought it was an art set-up of Matt's, not a romantic set up. I don't know what's true. My impression from that time is that he was sincere in that and it was not deliberate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Not to my knowledge. When I found out what had happened that afternoon, and asked OM not to return that day, he seemed genuinely surprised/sorry for disrupting that. He claimed he noticed some extra items in the spare room, but thought it was an art set-up of Matt's, not a romantic set up. I don't know what's true. My impression from that time is that he was sincere in that and it was not deliberate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So POSOM goes into the spare room and sees things obviously arranged in a special order and for a specific purpose and moves everything out of HIS way so HE can make himself at home.

If he actually thought it was an art set-u,p he still had no business touching anything. It was just one more time that POSOM disrespected Matt in his own house. Considering what you were doing, that is no surprise.

But according to you it was not deliberate. If you still believe that you are still in the POSOM fog.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did feel like I loved both my husband and OM during the affair, but I know after that it wasn't real love for OM. I don't think I am truly poly amorous, or I would have felt it for more people over the course of my life. I felt strong emotion for both individuals because they were each meeting emotional needs of mine. I was cake-eating, instead of giving my husband the opportunity to meet all my needs as I should have. I would never have even been in a position to consider polyamory if I hadn't allowed OM in emotionally. So it was a delusion, as I was seeking answers about a situation I created through poor boundaries and communication with Matt. I allowed a vulnerability to foster, and OM was in position to take advantage of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear you see the cake eating. Really (and it's just me trying to figure you out, making sense of your actions, sorry) OM was your primary relationship, the one that mattered to you the most. Matt was replaced at your heart, at the place of the heart that matters, his role was not the role of a romantic partner. He noticed you were not "there" since you restarted the affair full force only he didn't know why back then. You left the room and entered a new one. Matt only could meet the "residual" needs while the important ones were reserved for OM.


----------



## Acabado

And of course, OM c0ckblocked your husband that day.
Friend, he "marked" you that day with the kiss, you were his. He left Matt have you at the capacity he allowed you out of self interest, but not in his presence (hence the c0ckbloking).
Ask your IC. Give her/him the barebone facts.

It doesn't make him eveil just selfish, entitled and uncaring but well you were too, right?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> And of course, OM c0ckblocked your husband that day.
> Friend, he "marked" you that day with the kiss, you were his. * He left Matt have you at the capacity he allowed you out of self interest, but not in his presence (hence the c0ckbloking). *
> Ask your IC. Give her/him the barebone facts.
> 
> It doesn't make him eveil just selfish, entitled and uncaring but well you were too, right?



I'm not sure what this means. OM let Matt have me? Can you clarify this for me?

And yes, we were both selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

See there you go again---in your post at about 1 p m today---you still stated you thought your lover---ooops OM, did not do what he did to the room intentionally-------he F'ing went into another mans home and did what he wanted

When are you if ever gonna look at your OM, for the POS he is, and look at him with disgust and revulsion??????

If you can't do that, then you really are still into this POS, who has destroyed all of your lives

See I called him something else---don't you think POS, or scum are appropos


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not sure what this means. OM let Matt have me? Can you clarify this for me?
> 
> And yes, we were both selfish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could get you not agreeing with this, but do you really not understand it?

Ask yourself this question. Up to you whether you post the answer or just reflect on it.

When was the last time the OM made a sexual request of you and you said no?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> I could get you not agreeing with this, but do you really not understand it?
> 
> Ask yourself this question. Up to you whether you post the answer or just reflect on it.
> 
> When was the last time the OM made a sexual request of you and you said no?



I really didn't understand the wording. I just wanted to be sure I knew what he was actually asking/saying.

And I never said no to OM. That's probably crystal clear in the messages Matt has shared with you all, etc. But I also didn't really ever say no to Matt, unless I was legitimately ill or not available.


----------



## SoulStorm

> But I also didn't really ever say no to Matt, unless I was legitimately ill or not available.


In other words..you said no to Matt and never said no to OM. Lets not run around the bush here.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I really didn't understand the wording. I just wanted to be sure I knew what he was actually asking/saying.
> 
> And I never said no to OM. That's probably crystal clear in the messages Matt has shared with you all, etc. But I also didn't really ever say no to Matt, unless I was legitimately ill or not available.


Here from Matt's thread is what he feels was done to him that day.



DrMathias said:


> You're very perceptive. That morning was the first time they kissed, according to our talk last night, and I believe that's the truth. I could see it in her eyes that day, and the intimacy was never the same after that. That's why I confronted her. Shame on me for trying to win her back with a romantic evening, giving her my trust, and not being an alpha. I agree that was the day of the tipping point.


----------



## VFW

You are right to be more upset with yourself than anyone else, since it was your decision to make. Your lack of anger towards the other man is that you still don't seem to understand that he played you. You were in fantasy land and he was playing you big time, laughing to himself and his buddies. He was really more into his gf and you were just someone warm and willing. You let this POS into your home, your husband accepted him at first, because he trusted you. He came to realize this was not a good idea and tried to warn you. Instead you gave yourself to him and totally disrespected your husband. 

I told you in your first thread, that you deleted, that I didn't think you were a good bet for a long range relationship. While I will concede that you have made progress, I still am not convinced. That is irrelevant however, as it is a decision for you and Matt. I think you need time and probably a little distance to allow you to get some perspective, which you still lack. I do hope that Matt will allow for a separation as a mechanism to allow for healing. There is not anything to gain now by instant divorce. To you I also recommend that you be honest with him. If he asks you a question, answer it directly and honestly. You also need a plan to spend more time with your family and less with your students.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not sure what this means. OM let Matt have me? Can you clarify this for me?


 Sorry about the wording. I’d put it on English not being my language. 
Maybe you think all OMs are like this but they are not. Many, the ones which really love their MOWs, those who don’t brag to friends, become possessive, force them to cut sex with their BSs, intrude themselves into their lives, become really jealous of “family” activities, they hardly resign themselves to be the OM… that was not your OM’s case as you know (you know right?). He was fine getting what he wanted when he wanted the way he wanted and wasn’t bothered by Matt… BUT not openly, in his presence, so out of entitlement (because he believed you were his since that first kiss) when he could he marked his territory. Spoiling Matt’s romantic set up was his way to say I’m the one, not him.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did feel like I loved both my husband and OM during the affair, but I know after that it wasn't real love for OM. I don't think I am truly poly amorous, or I would have felt it for more people over the course of my life. I felt strong emotion for both individuals because they were each meeting emotional needs of mine. I was cake-eating, instead of giving my husband the opportunity to meet all my needs as I should have. I would never have even been in a position to consider polyamory if I hadn't allowed OM in emotionally. So it was a delusion, as I was seeking answers about a situation I created through poor boundaries and communication with Matt. I allowed a vulnerability to foster, and OM was in position to take advantage of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am seeing the changes in you that you have been talking about, all for the better. Kudos to you.


----------



## Shaggy

It's clear your OM is self entitled coward slacker and looser. He won't directly address your husband, but he'd no doubt jump back into bed with you and demand you to jump through hoops for him.

He's a slime ball who is filled inside with no spine, just smarmy coward.

And I think the two tragedies here are that your son is loosing his family, and that the OM hasn't faced the consequences he is due.


----------



## Kasler

Shaggy said:


> It's clear your OM is self entitled coward slacker and looser. He won't directly address your husband, but he'd no doubt jump back into bed with you and demand you to jump through hoops for him.
> 
> He's a slime ball who is filled inside with no spine, just smarmy coward.
> 
> And I think the two tragedies here are that your son is loosing his family, and that the OM hasn't faced the consequences he is due.


I agree. Guy is a total pric*, but he doesn't deserve any consequences. Just a dumb ass 21 yr old like many guys are at that age. Hes a PoS for going for a married woman, but the fault lies solely with the person whose married for not swatting him like the buzzing fly he is.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Mrs. Mathius: I think your story angers so many of us BS men is that you have a mental block that seems to prevent you from seeing and believing just how badly your lover devaluted and treated you, and how deeply he wounded Matt. He lorded his ownerhip of you over Matt while making it clear that the only part of you he wanted was your ass. And still you don't really believe it and you defend the POS at the expense of your husband, all the while saying how much you love your husband and child. Until you realize that you have longings for a man who sees you a something he can piss on, over a man who might still really love you and fathers your child and start to treat the POS as he deservers and your husband as he deserves you will remain something of a pariah.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I really didn't understand the wording. I just wanted to be sure I knew what he was actually asking/saying.
> 
> And I never said no to OM. That's probably crystal clear in the messages Matt has shared with you all, etc. But I also didn't really ever say no to Matt, unless I was legitimately ill or not available.


What I think the poster was saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the OM ALLOWED you to continue your relationship with Matt because it was in his interest to. I believe the poster is implying that if the OM put in a full court press on you, he could have seperated you from your family in many significant ways.

But since he needed a place away from Mom and Dad's to crash some nights, your bed was handy and he wasn't at a point where he could support TWO girl friends, he 'let' Matt keep you...but not when he was around. Then he purposefully pissed all over your husband's art display cum romantic evening...because so many art displays include turned down sheets, and romantic dresses.

Yeah. He didn't have a frigging clue. 

The fact YOU are still rationalizing his actions is troubling.


----------



## Wazza

Thinkitthrough said:


> Mrs. Mathius: I think your story angers so many of us BS men is that you have a mental block that seems to prevent you from seeing and believing just how badly your lover devaluted and treated you, and how deeply he wounded Matt. He lorded his ownerhip of you over Matt while making it clear that the only part of you he wanted was your ass. And still you don't really believe it and you defend the POS at the expense of your husband, all the while saying how much you love your husband and child. Until you realize that you have longings for a man who sees you a something he can piss on, over a man who might still really love you and fathers your child and start to treat the POS as he deservers and your husband as he deserves you will remain something of a pariah.


Not wrapped in OM but I am not pushing this point from anger. Rather because I don't know how MrsM addresses what she did without getting this. I don't know how Matt could reconcile without having worked through it.

I imagine this is a very painful discussion for her, and I take no pleasure in that.


----------



## Shaggy

Kasler said:


> I agree. Guy is a total pric*, but he doesn't deserve any consequences. Just a dumb ass 21 yr old like many guys are at that age. Hes a PoS for going for a married woman, but the fault lies solely with the person whose married for not swatting him like the buzzing fly he is.


I disagree. I think him having consequences teaches him not to hunt in someone else's yard, and. It provides a consequence to the WS knowing that they are responsible for the consequence being suffered by the OM.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thinkitthrough said:


> Mrs. Mathius: I think your story angers so many of us BS men is that you have a mental block that seems to prevent you from seeing and believing just how badly your lover devaluted and treated you, and how deeply he wounded Matt. He lorded his ownerhip of you over Matt while making it clear that the only part of you he wanted was your ass. And still you don't really believe it and you defend the POS at the expense of your husband, all the while saying how much you love your husband and child. Until you realize that you have longings for a man who sees you a something he can piss on, over a man who might still really love you and fathers your child and start to treat the POS as he deservers and your husband as he deserves you will remain something of a pariah.


This is something that I am working on. Certainly, OM said all the "right" things to me to not make me feel like he viewed me as a piece of ass only. So, in a way, I have to sort through all those past interactions and decide what was true and what was lies. I assume that is a position most BS's find themselves in, instead of WS's. I don't think I have said or done anything here that is "defending" OM. If I have, I would really love to have that pointed clearly out to me so I can see it and adjust my thinking. I don't think he deserves defending at all! But I am trying to answer questions that I am asked honestly, with my viewpoints from when I was in the affair, and then also look at them from outside the affair to try to evaluate what is true. Obviously, most of the truth that I am finding is coming from time and better perspective from those events, and not what I thought while they were happening.

Matt and I talked last night about his anger towards OM, for disrespecting him, AND the way he treated me. That was hard for me to hear, and really consider. Also, knowing that Matt's pain is compounded because of pain he feels on my behalf is awful. I feel the hurt and guilt of what OM and I did to Matt, but I haven't yet really processed what was done to me - it ties into the post I made a few days ago about really understanding someone else's motivations. I'm not very good at that yet. And it may seem very clear to people who read about it on the internet, but having lived through it, there are a lot of conflicting experiences that I have to sort through.

I very clearly understand the difference in love shown to me by my husband through this ordeal vs. OM. There is no comparison when you have hurt someone beyond all level of understanding, and they still hold your hand when you are upset, or hold your hair when you are throwing up from the stress, and show up to support you at IC, work events, and so many other things Matt has done for me in the last few weeks. OM could NEVER demonstrate that kind of true caring and thought. I don't deserve an ounce of it, but it really shows me the depth of Matt's love and compounds the terrible betrayal that I committed. I spend every day trying to show my love to Matt in return, to communicate my gratitude, and to be a person who values and lives that kind of true, deep love.


----------



## bfree

Mrs Mathias,

I am sorry if this is harsh but I have to get this out.

Let me make this perfectly clear.

The OM DID NOT LOVE YOU AT ALL...EVER!!!

He said what he had to in order to get you to drop your guard and your panties. He disprespected you, he disrespected your child and he disrespected your husband. He used you and threw you away like garbage. He smiled in your husbands face and then he slapped him. Then he ran away like the cowardly little b!tch he is. You were a sex toy, an amusement, a fill-in while he was on the outs with his girlfriend.

Until you understand and accept this Matt will never be able to respect you much less forgive you.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Bfree is correct. You asked us to show you how you defend the OM so here you go:



> *So, in a way, I have to sort through all those past interactions and decide what was true and what was lies.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> When two people are cheating on their significant others the whole relationship is based on lies. Lies from you. Lies from POSOM. There is not one shred of truth.
> 
> So you use the excuse, that you loved both of them. You say that so in your mind you are not really cheating on Matt. You say that so you are not really cheating on OM.
> 
> That is classic, cake eater denial. That type of affair is based on deceit and selfishness.
> 
> So stop saying it. You did not love him. He did not love you. You lusted for each other.
> 
> In a few weeks or months all this fallout is going to come down on your head and shoulders. You are going to realize that this fantasy based on lies has cost you your marriage, family and best friend.
> 
> And you are right. You do not deserve Matt.
> 
> What a great guy. I wonder if you truly have it in you to show him how great he really is in the future.
> 
> Try talking about that heavy lifting in a few months. But not until you fully realize what you have done.
> 
> A few of us can tell you are still in the fog a little.
> 
> Keep working at it Mrs. m.
> 
> HM64


----------



## Shaggy

The OM had no love for you.

He didn't have any hurt or problem from you having sex with your husband.

If he loved you, you would have hurt him deeply every time you where with your husband sexually.

The truth is he didn't care whoever you did, so long as he got his booty call on demand. The rest was cheap talk in his part to keep you on call.


----------



## JCD

I think the biggest indication of defending him was when you accepted at face value the fact he said he had 'no idea' that he was ruining Matt's 'art piece'.

As pointed out, what gives that no good dirty c0ck in the mouth the RIGHT to make ANY changes in your home for HIS comfort. He was p!ssing the house, marking HIS turf and willfully accepting his blank look and 'I didn't know' is a bit foggish at best.

Now, I've been in an EA and I actually disagree with some posters. The affection you felt for the OM was as real as any other emotion. YOU felt it. I felt it. We could not distinguish it from the other types of love we've felt. Maybe it's just a dopamine rush, but WE DIDN'T REALIZE THIS.

BUT...that being said, as a guy in an EA, I did a few moves as well to 'isolate' my friend from her other entanglements. There was a sense of what I was doing inside of me.

*Guys, lay off of her* on this issue. It's taken me 12 months to begin to question some of the actions of my EA buddy. It takes time!

But Mrs. Matt, you need to be a bit more cynical about this POS.


----------



## survivorwife

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I very clearly understand the difference in love shown to me by my husband through this ordeal vs. OM. There is no comparison when you have hurt someone beyond all level of understanding, and they still hold your hand when you are upset, or hold your hair when you are throwing up from the stress, and show up to support you at IC, work events, and so many other things Matt has done for me in the last few weeks. OM could NEVER demonstrate that kind of true caring and thought. I don't deserve an ounce of it, but it really shows me the depth of Matt's love and compounds the terrible betrayal that I committed. I spend every day trying to show my love to Matt in return, to communicate my gratitude, and to be a person who values and lives that kind of true, deep love.


That's all very nice of Matt to show YOU that he loves YOU, but how are YOU showing Matt that you love HIM, other than a "thank you" to "communicate your gratitude? Do you hold his hand when he is upset? Do you actively do something when HE is stressed? Do you support him and do things for him to demonstrate to HIM "true caring and thought"?

I didn't think it was Matt's burden to demonstrate the depth of his love for you, as he remained faithful to you and his love for you was never in question. And to toss in the comparison of this with the OM sounds rather offensive, if you think about it a bit. Matt and the OM should never be weighed against the other as to how they make YOU feel. Do you see that?

Yes, I am a BS and it stands to reason that I feel for the position that you put your BS through. When I hear of "heavy lifting" on the part of the WS, and read here how much Matt has done for you, I wonder what exactly you have done and are doing for him. Heavy lifting? Or just talking the talk and playing a new role. 

I would hope that Matt can tell the difference.


----------



## Wazza

So MrsM, we've been pretty rough on you over the last few pages. Hope you and Matt are holding up ok.

We are trying to help, not hurt.

Keep working on things!


----------



## Acabado

Thinkitthrough said:


> Mrs. Mathius: I think your story angers so many of us BS men is that you have a mental block that seems to prevent you from seeing and believing just *how badly your lover devaluted and treated you*, and how deeply he wounded Matt. He lorded his ownerhip of you over Matt while making it clear that the only part of you he wanted was your ass. And still you don't really believe it and *you defend the POS at the expense of your husband*


The way I've been reading it I disagree with both bolded parts.
OM devalued Mrs? I don't think so. I don't like to rehash the most hurtful things but there's no other way: she devalued herself, she offered serself to him at any capacity he wanted her to. There's no doubt about it. The real problem here is she did it out of "love", at least that's the way she rationalizes it becasue I don't see here a woman who recognizes and compartimentalizes lust from love, they go hand in hand (as a matter of fact in the same foggie letter she was telling OM she was not a NSA sex type girl, trying to feed his ego. She wanted badly to believe the sex fantasies, the cake eating meant something huge, "transcendent". She was already emotionaly attached to him since years ago at some capacity but once it become PA rationalizing hamster started working its wonders. Are we here to become outraged becasue a women enjoy the submissive role? Aren't we adults? So "devalued" is something very fuzzy sometimes.
Of course once all it said and done she needs to unwalk to the hamster's walk. And it's not that easy, require tons of self honesty so you can own the ugly stuff.

The second bolded part. I don't see her defending OM, she herself aluded taking more blame, a part she doesn't "own" (you can't divide blame in an affair, affairs doesn't posses a certain amount of blame you can split, every involved part own 100 % of his/her participation). What's real is she still can't see OM with the obvious malice required to do what he did and can't relate the pain OM caused Matt. She sees him more naive then he is, she project her own "emotions" into him. Can't see the arrogance he used at Matt's house, a place he allowed him to stay, as a friend. Matt was not a stranger to OM, Matt was a face to him, the house was a home, can't you understand the entitlement you need to do someting like this? He was not the average OM. And he was a coward not only becasue refused to face Matt at that chat but because he toke adventage of the fact Matt had to much to lose after his attack to go after him. Try to see the context surrouding that 'sigh'.

Mrs you are going to find a way to separate what you were getting from the affair (let's call it "needs") from the OM attached to them, then make the same exercise from his side. At the end affairs at mutual using.


A few more question Mrs, do you believe you'd be able to share him with GF? Could you still have the affair had they were living together and openly dating? Could you socialize, talk to her face at their house, look at her eyes, near "the" bed? What if they shared a child?
Were you aware they actually never broke up for good, that they was talking? It's obvious you dislike her lots.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Mrs Mathias 
Point 1 
Didn’t really mean angers, more like frustrated. In 28 years working with people a response of`` clarify I don’t understand you`` is a way of not hearing something you don`t want to hear.
Point 2
The following are examples of your defence of the POSOM
You said you say you are not…
Wazza wrote
“I read "(sigh) done" not as sorrow or regret, but as contempt for Matt. "Your wife does what I want…who are you to tell me what to do?"
(This is a fairly straight forward analysis, quite evident)
to which you reply
“Hmmm... that's an interesting interpretation. It doesn't jive with what I know of OM, but much of my perceptions of him could be and likely are false.” 
(you say, oh no, my OM would never do that. I am posting something written by a serial cheater and posted several places on TAM see below)
Matt tries to plan a reconnection and a bit or romance with you and who shows up, but the OM and what does he do, he messes up Matt’s plan. When this is suggested you say
“Not to my knowledge. When I found out what had happened that afternoon, and asked OM not to return that day, he seemed genuinely surprised/sorry for disrupting that. He claimed he noticed some extra items in the spare room, but thought it was an art set-up of Matt's, not a romantic set up. I don't know what's true. My impression from that time is that he was sincere in that and it was not deliberate.”
TDS360 replied
“So POSOM goes into the spare room and sees things obviously arranged in a special order and for a specific purpose and moves everything out of HIS way so HE can make himself at home.
If he actually thought it was an art set-u,p he still had no business touching anything. It was just one more time that POSOM disrespected Matt in his own house. Considering what you were doing, that is no surprise.
But according to you it was not deliberate. If you still believe that you are still in the POSOM fog. “
I agree with TDS360 and my reasons are largely supported by the following I have copied and is on a number of posts. I have forgotten who posted this copy
Point 3
You have a strong need to argue you lover had good intentions and that he wasn’t really a bad guy. That he had respect for Matt and you. This explains a serial cheater`s attitude.
Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.

I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.

I saw an interview with a child predator who was asked why it was so difficult to identify pedophiles. He said that if he acted and looked like a pedophile, no child would trust him and he’d never get close the target kid. What is interesting is that a wife predator has all the attributes of a pedophile excepting only what they target.
You were set up, sucked in and used without ever knowing it was happening. Because, as findmyway says, if you figured it out, guys like him and your OM would never get laid.
As Bfree put it 
``Mrs Mathias,
I am sorry if this is harsh but I have to get this out.
Let me make this perfectly clear.
The OM DID NOT LOVE YOU AT ALL...EVER!!!
He said what he had to in order to get you to drop your guard and your panties. He disprespected you, he disrespected your child and he disrespected your husband. He used you and threw you away like garbage. He smiled in your husbands face and then he slapped him. Then he ran away like the cowardly little b!tch he is. You were a sex toy, an amusement, a fill-in while he was on the outs with his girlfriend.
Until you understand and accept this Matt will never be able to respect you much less forgive you.``
Or as Shaggy said:
The truth is he didn't care whoever you did, so long as he got his booty call on demand. The rest was cheap talk in his part to keep you on call. 
Point 4
Acabado: What I was trying to say is that Mrs. Mathias has value as a person, as a human being, as a woman, a mother and a wife. He treated her as if she had no value, other than as something he could use for sex and entertainment. Sorry, it was a wording issue.
Point 5
What's real is she still can't see OM with the obvious malice required to do what he did and can't relate the pain OM caused Matt. She sees him more naive then he is, she project her own "emotions" into him. Can't see the arrogance he used at Matt's house, a place he allowed him to stay, as a friend. Matt was not a stranger to OM, Matt was a face to him, the house was a home, can't you understand the entitlement you need to do something like this? He was not the average OM. And he was a coward not only because refused to face Matt at that chat but because he took advantage
Acabado: again we agree, except in semantics. I make the point that by insisting that her OM had the best of motives, she was refusing to see him for what he was and the damage he was knowingly doing.

Mrs.Mathias: As a person I like you and have a good deal of sympathy. I would prefer that you two work it out but I am also a BS as well, and the men who took my wife did not love her or want her for more than sex and what they could get. It has taken her years to fully understand that and feel it. It has taken me years to come to terms with it, over come the pain and try to make a life from the ashes of the old with her. The result is that we are both damaged and can drift into dark sad places.
I could not in good conscious ever wish it on anyone.


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> Mrs Mathias,
> 
> I am sorry if this is harsh but I have to get this out.
> 
> Let me make this perfectly clear.
> 
> The OM DID NOT LOVE YOU AT ALL...EVER!!!
> 
> He said what he had to in order to get you to drop your guard and your panties. He disprespected you, he disrespected your child and he disrespected your husband. He used you and threw you away like garbage. He smiled in your husbands face and then he slapped him. Then he ran away like the cowardly little b!tch he is. You were a sex toy, an amusement, a fill-in while he was on the outs with his girlfriend.
> 
> Until you understand and accept this Matt will never be able to respect you much less forgive you.


Your post is coming as if Mrs did not want to have sex or she did not enjoy it. And that she was manipulated into having sex. These two had a symbiotic relationship and fed off each other. he wanted to get into her panties and she wanted to get into his pants. And considering Mrs is his teacher and a 36 year old married woman with a kid, she is 100 time more at fault than the OM. The OM is irrelevant.

Imagine someone saying the same if the genders were reversed. A midto late 30's art teacher cheating on his wife with a 21 year old student(that he essentially groomed since she was a 18-19 year old)


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Your post is coming as if Mrs did not want to have sex or she did not enjoy it. And that she was manipulated into having sex. These two had a symbiotic relationship and fed off each other. he wanted to get into her panties and she wanted to get into his pants. And considering Mrs is his teacher and a 36 year old married woman with a kid, she is 100 time more at fault than the OM. The OM is irrelevant.
> 
> Imagine someone saying the same if the genders were reversed. A midto late 30's art teacher cheating on his wife with a 21 year old student(that he essentially groomed since she was a 18-19 year old)


I understand what you are saying and you are correct. She is much more to blame than the OM. But I can see why Matt believes that if the OM shows up at her office in a few months that she would reengage with him. It just frustrates me to no end to hear her continually make up excuses for her AP while at the same time saying she wants to R with Matt. And I even understand what JCD is saying about it taking time to emerge from the fog of the relationship. But for crying out loud it has to start somewhere. I read the threads of fWS like Changing Me, CSS, EI, etc. and I see that they may not necessarily hate their former APs but they are quite able to see how their and their AP's behavior hurt their spouses. I don't see Mrs. M ackowledging any of the hurt that Matt felt at the hands of her AP. It's as if the OM walked over to Matt, shoved a shiv in his back, claimed it was an accident and Mrs. M believing it. You can see that other APs were just as much in the fog as the fWS here on TAM. But this guy was not in the fog. He just wanted a piece of a$$ and was willing to do whatever it took to get it. In my opinion that is 10X worse than two foggy idiots surfing on a dopamine wave. This guy was malicious and evil. At some point she needs to see things for what they were and are. That this POSOM TRIED TO DESTROY HER AND HER FAMILY!

Until she sees that....truly sees that....Matt will never respect her or trust her much less consider R with her.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> So MrsM, we've been pretty rough on you over the last few pages. Hope you and Matt are holding up ok.
> 
> We are trying to help, not hurt.
> 
> Keep working on things!


You're right, I have been hard on her these last few posts but I am really trying to help her. People have been trying to help her to see reality for a while now. But at some point those damned rose colored glasses need to come off. She just seems incapable of seeing the truth and I feel so bad for her and for Matt because its not a white elephant in the room, its a damned dinosaur.


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> I understand what you are saying and you are correct. She is much more to blame than the OM. But I can see why Matt believes that if the OM shows up at her office in a few months that she would reengage with him. It just frustrates me to no end to hear her continually make up excuses for her AP while at the same time saying she wants to R with Matt. And I even understand what JCD is saying about it taking time to emerge from the fog of the relationship. But for crying out loud it has to start somewhere. I read the threads of fWS like Changing Me, CSS, EI, etc. and I see that they may not necessarily hate their former APs but they are quite able to see how their and their AP's behavior hurt their spouses. I don't see Mrs. M ackowledging any of the hurt that Matt felt at the hands of her AP. It's as if the OM walked over to Matt, shoved a shiv in his back, claimed it was an accident and Mrs. M believing it. You can see that other APs were just as much in the fog as the fWS here on TAM. But this guy was not in the fog. He just wanted a piece of a$$ and was willing to do whatever it took to get it. In my opinion that is 10X worse than two foggy idiots surfing on a dopamine wave. This guy was malicious and evil. At some point she needs to see things for what they were and are. That this POSOM TRIED TO DESTROY HER AND HER FAMILY!
> 
> Until she sees that....truly sees that....Matt will never respect her or trust her much less consider R with her.


I don't think she is defending the OM. maybe she is, but I think she is honest about what she currently feels about it . While is not what TAM might want to hear, atleast that is better than being dishonest.

I think she sees what she and her OM did. but she was the one that allowed it in the first place. OM is just an immature selfish brat that went along with the opportunity. Maybe he has his own demons but does it really matter ? Redirecting the anger for her mistakes onto OM will not only sound hypocritical and but also mean that she is not ready to see and own her own mistakes.


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> I don't think she is defending the OM. maybe she is, but I think she is honest about what she currently feels about it . While is not what TAM might want to hear, atleast that is better than being dishonest.
> 
> I think she sees what she and her OM did. but she was the one that allowed it in the first place. OM is just an immature selfish brat that went along with the opportunity. Maybe he has his own demons but does it really matter ? Redirecting the anger for her mistakes onto OM will not only sound hypocritical and but also mean that she is not ready to see and own her own mistakes.


Well, we will have to disagree on her making excuses for her AP. IMO she is still seeing him through some coke bottle rose colored glasses. But as to redirecting anger, she cannot feel anger toward herself and anger toward the man that tried to destroy her husband and family? Since when is anger a one pronged fork?


----------



## Tony55

bfree said:


> At some point she needs to see things for what they were and are.


Correct, at some point she does, but no one will be able to force it; not even the person afflicted with the "fog". In fact, the infected person most likely doesn't fully grasp what's overcome them, something that might feel logical in their thinking, looks illogical to the un-afflicted people around them.

It's like they see the color red while everyone else sees blue, and we can tell them it's not red till we're blue in the face (oh I'm so funny), but they'll still see red.

What's really scary is sometimes they'll *say* they see blue, not maliciously, but just to get everyone to leave them alone; but they still see red.

People infected with the crazy "love" disease are stuck in a crazy place where they know what they want to feel, but stuck with what their minds are telling them they feel.


I'm not saying this is the case with Mrs M, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that it accounts for a lot of the mixed messages people get from her posts.

T


----------



## AnnieAsh

bfree said:


> Well, we will have to disagree on her making excuses for her AP. IMO she is still seeing him through some coke bottle rose colored glasses. But as to redirecting anger, she cannot feel anger toward herself and anger toward the man that tried to destroy her husband and family? Since when is anger a one pronged fork?


So...what is appropriate timeframe for a wayward wife to feel anger? Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months from the final contact? Do you think constantly discussing him is going to trigger feelings in her?


----------



## bfree

AnnieAsh said:


> So...what is appropriate timeframe for a wayward wife to feel anger? Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months from the final contact? Do you think constantly discussing him is going to trigger feelings in her?


I don't necessarily want her to feel anger. That was said in response to Warlock's post. I don't even expect her to realize at this point that she was not truly in love with her AP. I believe that will come later and only as she examines her feelings and emerges from the fog. But she needs to see that her AP was not in love with her. She needs to see the damage he inflicted maliciously on her husband. She needs to see the blood, her husband's blood, on his hands. She needs to stop living in the theater of the mind. I suspect that she cannot bring herself to see these things because if she admits to herself that he was using her she can no longer romanticize their affair. I think deep down she is still clinging to that star crossed lovers theme so popular in trashy novels and trashier movies. But most of all she needs to see this because her husband damned sure does.


----------



## Juicer

AnnieAsh said:


> So...what is appropriate timeframe for a wayward wife to feel anger? Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months from the final contact? Do you think constantly discussing him is going to trigger feelings in her?


Hate may be a strong word to use. 

But yes, it should trigger feelings. 

And if it triggers feelings of happiness, and butterflies, Mrs. M has a problem. 

It doesn't need to trigger rage and anger. 

But it should, at the very least, trigger feelings or remorse and regret, on her part. Because she should know that because of the OM, her husband will never be the same, will never trust her again like he use to, and she has only herself to blame. It should trigger memories of her husband crying, praying that it wasn't true, or the numerous DDays she put her husband through, or any of the other unpleasant memories Dr. M has had to experience according to her actions. 
When she thinks of the OM, she should be thinking of her splintered family and broken husband. 

But I doubt she is.


----------



## AnnieAsh

I get what you're saying. I genuinely believe that will come in time as long as she takes positive forward actions. But...this fixation on whether om (or LOVER as one poster insisted) was using her for sex or giving her to her husband is straight up creepy. She's supposed to be fixated on her HUSBAND right now.


----------



## bfree

Annie,

What really bothers me is statements like "I don't think he meant anything by it" or "that wouldn't be consistent with what I know about him."

She doesn't know him! She only knows what he wanted her to see in order to get what he wanted. She still sees the image he projected as his true image. It was a mask, just like in the theater. He was damned good at wearing that mask and making her believe it was the real guy. But until she has the courage to remove that mask in her memory she will never see him for the true snake that he is. A snake that sank his fangs in her husband and pumped his poison into Matt's veins through her. I'm being dramatic here because I think its the only language Mrs M understands.


----------



## bfree

AnnieAsh said:


> I get what you're saying. I genuinely believe that will come in time as long as she takes positive forward actions. But...this fixation on whether om (or LOVER as one poster insisted) was using her for sex or giving her to her husband is straight up creepy. She's supposed to be fixated on her HUSBAND right now.


But as long as she sees her AP as a white knight she cannot let go of him. And until she lets go of him there are still three people in this marriage.


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> Well, we will have to disagree on her making excuses for her AP. IMO she is still seeing him through some coke bottle rose colored glasses. But as to redirecting anger, she cannot feel anger toward herself and anger toward the man that tried to destroy her husband and family? Since when is anger a one pronged fork?


Actually we are not disagreeing at all. 

You are saying that she should feel the anger. Ideally she should. but she isn't feeling any right now...That is what she is telling us.

it is much better than telling us she is so angry at the OM when she isn't.


----------



## jim123

Mrs M is taking most of the blame and should. For her to turn around and blame the OM would be met with as much critiism if not more. She is in my opinion doing the right thing in accepting 90% of the A.

Mrs. M

You answer the questions much like you are taking a test. I know you are trying to be as truthfull as possible. What is more important than answering the question, is why is the question being asked. Think to yourself, why is this import to a BS or why is the BS asking this question.

This will be important as it will help you communicate, understand and help the only BS that matters, Matt.

One quick point, why do you think it is important that the OM did not love you.


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Actually we are not disagreeing at all.
> 
> You are saying that she should feel the anger. Ideally she should. but she isn't feeling any right now...That is what she is telling us.
> 
> it is much better than telling us she is so angry at the OM when she isn't.


Being angry is less important than being truthful, I agree. But she is still seeing her AP as a quality individual IMO. And that is just not true. Until she sees him for what he is he will still be in her head. She can see him as pitiful, manipulative, unrepentant, etc. It doesn't matter. But she needs to stop attributing noble qualities to him.

Matt set up a nice romantic evening for them. He knew they were having problems and he was working to make the marriage better. This kid comes in and scuttles the entire night. You and I and everyone else knows he did it on purpose. Matt knows he did it on purpose. But she doesn't see it because "its not consistent with what she knows about him." That is the problem right there. Not only did he tear Matt's heart out by having an affair with his wife but he actively sought to poison the well and had the audacity to do it right in front of Matt's face. I cannot believe the anger and frustration he must have felt and that was even before he found out about the affair. How can she ever hope to understand his pain if she can't even see this obvious slap in the face to her husband.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Bfree, I am just a WW, trying to help another WW. My advice may be pretty dang crappy lol. I just hope fervently Mrs M can come through this and do the best for her husband and toddler. 

How do you know she thinks of him as her white knight? Did she actually SAY that? Or are you guessing? I missed that post. None of us know him. I am not going to ascribe feelings and actions to him. And this medium sucks for tone anyway. 

But honestly...if she did hate him, would that help her husband?


----------



## Shaggy

Annie,

I think the OP is still placing the OM in warm safe spot in her heart and that Matt is very much at risk of being betrayed again if she ever got the opportunity. Her prior false R was full of deceptions and deliberate lies that she romanticized/rationalized as ok. Until she in her heart sees the OM for the walking piece of feces he is, Matt is at risk.

The OM used her for sex. She willingly did anything he asked and he used her. He didn't love her, he didn't care that he went home to Matt (hopefully she denied Matt for a couple of days afterward each encounter). He didn't care that she was a cheater either. Any man who loves a woman wants to be able to repesct her, but how could you respect someone who cheats. No, the OM was a coward who used her for sex only. When push came to shove he abandoned her without a care nd without missing anything about her other than the effortless sex for him.


----------



## AnnieAsh

So...if he had a great love for her and demanded that she stop sleeping with her husband that would be better? If he had begged her to marry him, that would make it more palatable? Seems like both situations are AWFUL. What difference does it make if he loved her or not? The fact is, she betrayed her husband. For loftier ideals or not, she had sex with another man. 

I guess what I am trying to ask is what is the point of the circular debating over this other persons motives?


----------



## JCD

First off, let's get a bit of perspective.

She was not dropping classes, drugging her kid to sleep, or staying out for days at a time for conubile bliss with the OM. There were what, 3-5 sessions, which mainly seemed oral and occasionally included a night out.

This is not someone going out and pulling trains at her lover's behest. She didn't get body piercings or wear slave anklets or get some of his artwork somewhere on her body.

This is not defending her. It is to be truthful about what happened. Yes, once was too much. Yes, saying what she said was WAY too much and will burn more in Matt's mind than a one off BJ would which she wasn't wild about.

Second: CJ was not Satan. Mrs. Matt is not Satan. I can't believe how often I have to say this.

I keep hearing 'well, she/he is selfish, amoral, ego driven' blah blah blah blah. Well yes AND she is many other things as well. Some of them are good. When she sets her mind on something, she seems damned driven. So far, her problem is she's set her mind on her Job, her Work, the OM, her Students, her Plays......and than Matt and the Child.

She is obviously trying to refocus that drive in a slightly more important direction. Kudos for doing it and double for staying for the slamming. 

I had my own EA. My EA was not a home breaking strumpet (I like tea and strumpets). She was a lonely woman. I was a lonely man. Our motives were at times questionable. We did not go out and kick puppies, take the money from blind people's tin cups, or support mimes. At some point, at least MY focus left my family (can't speak for her) and that was where I went wrong.

This guy YES, liked free p*ssy. He probably got an ego charge by having his MENTOR blow him. But he might have had some feelings for her. SHE certainly had REAL feelings for him.

I just get so tired of this black and white casting of human beings.

Looking back on my EA, I think she was reaching out a tad more aggressively than even she realized. I certainly wanted something different in my life. But until the end, I didn't neglect the kids, the house or my responsibilites. (Yes, I got there. A cautionary tale)

BUT...Mrs. Matt...it would be BETTER for you mental distancing and healing to question EVERYTHING about this guy. It doesn't win you any points to defend him to your husband (and it's not winning you many points here) Even if you think it's true. Your judgement on this issue MIGHT be suspect. Just saying.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Annie:If she doesn't understand that the OM felt nothing for her, and that there will never be a future with that OM, or any OM. I posted that piece by Findingmyway because it encompases almost everything that what I call Spouse Predators are all about. They don't love, they don't care and they accept no responsibility for the damage they do and pain they cause. Some destroy these women and their families for the hell of it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Thinkitthrough said:


> Annie:If she doesn't understand that the OM felt nothing for her, and that there will never be a future with that OM, or any OM. I posted that piece by Findingmyway because it encompases almost everything that what I call Spouse Predators are all about. They don't love, they don't care and they accept no responsibility for the damage they do and pain they cause. Some destroy these women and their families for the hell of it.


Btw, big thanks to you fellas for answering my questions. It is much appreciated . 

I read that piece you posted, Think. I agree there are shady people out there that "prey" on spouses, though if those spouses did the right thing, the predator would move on. So...I'm kinda torn on that. And the whole thing just smacked of bragging...ick. 

But who cares if this kid was a "predator?" She didn't have to make herself prey. And since HE'S not here and SHE is...the hypothesizing is kinda useless. I am feeling so dense right now


----------



## jnj express

I am sorry, but everyone keeps on about Mrs M's lover---whoops the OM----HE DOES NOT FIGURE---yes we would all like to pound him to pulp, he is a POS, lowlife scum----but he is NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS

Again, there is only one person on this planet WHO IS MARRIED TO DR. M---this woman whose thread we are on---it was she and SHE ALONE who TOOK SACRED VOWS with Dr M---it is SHE AND SHE ALONE WHO WORE/WEARS THE WEDDING BAND HE GAVE HER---it is SHE AND SHE ALONE WHO SWORE TO LOVE AND HONOR

Where is the honor----where is the love, what she did was disrespect, treat Dr M, as a POS, treat her child as a nothing, based on her KNOWING WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CHEATING ARE------ She Mrs M---is the sole and only person responsible for her actions to her family---so stop with all this crap about her lover----he didn't do anything to Dr M-------It is this so called wife, who has enuff brains to be a college Professor---who is spose to know when to say NO!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Thinkitthrough

JCD: I am sure that there are EA's, PA's and marriages between people who have had the misfortune of being married and falling in real love with someone else. I've seen that twice in co-workers, but my experiences with my wife and of colleagues I know is that of being victimized by men or women who just wanted them for something. I am Aspergers, High Functioning to be sure, but not emotional (I do feel, just not like "normal" people) My wife had an EA/PA that I found out about soon after it ended. My spouse discovered that he wanted nothing to do with our son, and that he needed sex with different women to keep from being bored. His attitude was "Keep your door open, I'll be back in a month or so". The guy she left me for was her "soul mate" and they were together for a couple of months till he wanted to move in with her, and she found out that his girlfriend had tossed him out and he needed a place to store his stuff and sleep. It took her nearly a year to get over it. A least three of the people I work with, one male, two female were victimized and had their marriages destroyed in this way. After four years I still drift into dark places and wonder if I can make this work.


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> Being angry is less important than being truthful, I agree. But she is still seeing her AP as a quality individual IMO. And that is just not true. Until she sees him for what he is he will still be in her head. She can see him as pitiful, manipulative, unrepentant, etc. It doesn't matter. But she needs to stop attributing noble qualities to him.
> 
> Matt set up a nice romantic evening for them. He knew they were having problems and he was working to make the marriage better. This kid comes in and scuttles the entire night. You and I and everyone else knows he did it on purpose. Matt knows he did it on purpose. But she doesn't see it because "its not consistent with what she knows about him." That is the problem right there. Not only did he tear Matt's heart out by having an affair with his wife but he actively sought to poison the well and had the audacity to do it right in front of Matt's face. I cannot believe the anger and frustration he must have felt and that was even before he found out about the affair. How can she ever hope to understand his pain if she can't even see this obvious slap in the face to her husband.



I don't remember it correctly but I think Matt explained this situation and thinks that it may not have been intentional..as evil as what they did to him. This was a topic that was repeatedly brought up in his thread and I think he addressed it. (I can be wrong though)

Look what you are doing here. You are making me defend Mrs.Mathias. I am here to bash her, not defend her.


----------



## warlock07

Shaggy said:


> Annie,
> 
> I think the OP is still placing the OM in warm safe spot in her heart and that Matt is very much at risk of being betrayed again if she ever got the opportunity. Her prior false R was full of deceptions and deliberate lies that she romanticized/rationalized as ok. Until she in her heart sees the OM for the walking piece of feces he is, Matt is at risk.
> 
> The OM used her for sex. She willingly did anything he asked and he used her. He didn't love her, he didn't care that he went home to Matt (hopefully she denied Matt for a couple of days afterward each encounter). He didn't care that she was a cheater either. Any man who loves a woman wants to be able to repesct her, but how could you respect someone who cheats. No, the OM was a coward who used her for sex only. When push came to shove he abandoned her without a care nd without missing anything about her other than the effortless sex for him.



A woman can use a man for sex too. OM is the kid. She is the adult.

I'm getting confused here. What are we arguing ?


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> I am here to bash her, not defend her.


?????

How about helping?


----------



## warlock07

Wazza said:


> ?????
> 
> How about helping?


Should I have included a sarcasm tag?


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Should I have included a sarcasm tag?


My bad. Humblest apologies.


----------



## Wazza

AnnieAsh said:


> Btw, big thanks to you fellas for answering my questions. It is much appreciated .
> 
> I read that piece you posted, Think. I agree there are shady people out there that "prey" on spouses, though if those spouses did the right thing, the predator would move on. So...I'm kinda torn on that. And the whole thing just smacked of bragging...ick.
> 
> But who cares if this kid was a "predator?" She didn't have to make herself prey. And since HE'S not here and SHE is...the hypothesizing is kinda useless. I am feeling so dense right now


Annie, I have been thinking about your posts.

As I recall your thread, you started out hesitant as to whether you really were even in the beginnings of an affair. You argued that Mike was not out to get you into bed. Your posts in this thread seem to have acknowledged that this was his intent. You see the danger, where you didn't at the time. Remember when you were thinking of separating because it was easier than working things out with your husband?

This is important for MrsM. She has never said no to OM sexually. Never. And she doesn't seem to fully appreciate the ramifications of some of her actions. 

I don't have any need for her to hate OM, but I really want her to realise that she is still in danger. Because I believe he's going to come back after her again, and unless she is prepared, she will relapse.

Her marriage is teetering now, and may not survive. A D-day four would almost certainly end any chance of reconciliation.

Am I wrong about your story? And if I am right, do you agree there is danger? Does this affect the advice you are giving her?


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> ?????
> 
> How about helping?


Honestly I'm not trying to bash her or defend her. I am trying to help. I see this as a huge sticking point for her and Matt. I guess in a way I am hoping they can find a way to R even though I know Matt is rightfully moving toward D. I sense that Matt still loves her and I want to believe that she really does love Matt. But as long as part of her mind is reserved for this good guy (the OM) she can never really focus on Matt's recovery in full. I really think that the BS can sense if the WS is "all in" when it comes to remorse. I've read several threads where the BS said at first the WS was going through the motions when it came to actions but there was no heartfelt stirrings behind the actions. At some point the WS "got it" and was emotionally and physically moved and could "feel" the pain that they had caused. If you read Matt's thread he is really saying that he "thinks" she is remorseful and she "seems" to be doing the right things. But I don't sense that he thinks she "gets it" and he certainly does not believe she is over her AP at all. And I believe it is because she is still romanticizing their affair and still believes her AP is a good guy. This needs to change. The masks must come off. And until they do she is just spinning her wheels.

Edit: Wazza I know you this wasn't directed at me. I was just using it as a spring board for my post.


----------



## dogman

AnnieAsh said:


> I get what you're saying. I genuinely believe that will come in time as long as she takes positive forward actions. But...this fixation on whether om (or LOVER as one poster insisted) was using her for sex or giving her to her husband is straight up creepy. She's supposed to be fixated on her HUSBAND right now.


Men who are willing to sleep with another mans wife ARE creepy! 

That's the point.


----------



## dogman

AnnieAsh said:


> So...if he had a great love for her and demanded that she stop sleeping with her husband that would be better? If he had begged her to marry him, that would make it more palatable? Seems like both situations are AWFUL. What difference does it make if he loved her or not? The fact is, she betrayed her husband. For loftier ideals or not, she had sex with another man.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to ask is what is the point of the circular debating over this other persons motives?


There's not a man on this forum who does not see the difference between his wife being used and thrown away vs the OM being in love with her.

I for one would have a hard time forgiving my wife if she was stupid enough to be played by a womanizer, player, etc.

If the OM loved her and felt pain at the loss of her, I would be more inclined to see the value in her as well.

We all see that the OM in this case has used her, now we want her to see it, and him for what he truly is. For real.


----------



## BjornFree

dogman said:


> There's not a man on this forum who does not see the difference between his wife being used and thrown away vs the OM being in love with her.
> 
> I for one would have a hard time forgiving my wife if she was stupid enough to be played by a womanizer, player, etc.
> 
> If the OM loved her and felt pain at the loss of her, I would be more inclined to see the value in her as well.
> 
> We all see that the OM in this case has used her, now we want her to see it, and him for what he truly is. For real.


I don't think it would really matter if the wife was in love with the other man or he was in love with her. The husband is still the third wheel here. Not many men would like to be in this position nor would they see value in their wives.


----------



## dogman

BjornFree said:


> I don't think it would really matter if the wife was in love with the other man or he was in love with her. The husband is still the third wheel here. Not many men would like to be in this position nor would they see value in their wives.


If I absolutely had to be cheated on I would rather my wife be loved an appreciated and treated well by the AP than used and played in a lustful way then tossed without a care. JMO

Don't get me wrong all of this is bad and devalues the wife. But i Think this can explain why the OMs intentions are relevant. And why we want her to not defend him and actually want her to have negative feelings toward OM.

Instead she acts like he loved her and he's not a bad person he's just in a bad position. The fantasy continues.

This shows she is still in a fog and not able to see the truth.


----------



## Kasler

^ Its kinda weird but I can get that. 

I remember one poster on here. She had an affair with some guy she was studying with. She asked him if he liked her. He said no. Thought she was attractive but didn't like her that way. She took that and yet still persisted and offered him oral. He accepted, but she couldn't get him to climax that way. She then offered vaginal sex, to which the OM refused, after that she left. 

This is horrible and much more shameful in my opinion

When your SO is practically throwing themselves at someone in efforts to be their personal wh0re/walking dildo. Ach. 

That factor is no less in this case.

OM calls, and shes driving over to his spot to suck him off.


----------



## BjornFree

dogman said:


> If I absolutely had to be cheated on I would rather my wife be loved an appreciated and treated well by the AP than used and played in a lustful way then tossed without a care. JMO
> 
> Don't get me wrong all of this is bad and devalues the wife. But i Think this can explain why the OMs intentions are relevant. And why we want her to not defend him and actually want her to have negative feelings toward OM.
> 
> Instead she acts like he loved her and he's not a bad person he's just in a bad position. The fantasy continues.
> 
> This shows she is still in a fog and not able to see the truth.


Makes sense I guess but its still a sh!tty position for DrM. Just hope he's achieved some degree of detachment from the situation and MrsM.


----------



## MrMathias

dogman said:


> If I absolutely had to be cheated on I would rather my wife be loved an appreciated and treated well by the AP than used and played in a lustful way then tossed without a care. JMO
> 
> Don't get me wrong all of this is bad and devalues the wife. But I Think this can explain why the OMs intentions are relevant. And why we want her to not defend him and actually want her to have negative feelings toward OM.


I'm going to take a moment to break my self imposed policy of not posting in this thread. First off I agree with dogman here, I'd prefer that the OM had_ some_ positive feelings toward the object of his desire, caring on some level, instead of thinking of her as a wh0re for his use. In the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter- 'love' or its absence is really just a detail in the narrative and doesn't make the situation 'better' in any way. It certainly justifies nothing, it just explains the idiotic rationalizations people in affairs resort to to break what they thought were their personal values. 

From my perspective, he did 'love' her, or whatever passes for 'love' in affair mode, whatever that means, at least for a time. I think he felt 'love' before the affair, when she was in NYC, and up until they engaged in the PA in October. When he came to her office in early Sept. and broke NC, I think he was legitimately distraught over the way they ended. At least that's what I think based off her story, how he looked, how he acted. It could also be that he just felt alone- OM's ExGF was in Florida.

I think they were two peas in a pod, and their tryst didn't end the way either of them wanted it to. That's why the resumed the PA, kept the friendship, and ended it to what appears to be mutual satisfaction, *on their terms as they discussed*, with my WW fully intending on staying BFFs. WW and OM are both examples of pure and total selfishness and are probably more alike than I care to face. She only got back to working on me when they were 'done'. 

Also from my perspective once they started having full penetrative sex something changed, I mean where could they go from there? That was the ultimate pinnacle for him, other than checking the sex position tally he had in his mind. There was never going to be nights in Venice, he was never going to stand by her side as she gave birth to his son, they were never going to be able to hold hands in public. Nailing a married woman, teacher, MILF, was pretty much the plateau for him. OM was clearly not having his 'love' needs met by MrsM and was courting his ExGF again while they were in PA- he had somehow kept his ExGF on the line and knew she would be moving back to Kansas. I don't know, maybe he just wanted a little trim from her too and he doesn't love her either. 

Honestly the way MrsM describes her encounters with OM, it appears that he learned how to treat a woman in bed from watching porn, as an object and not someone to be cherished. It's foreign to me, that she would accept his advances, the way he initiated, the way he treated her. She didn't care, in her quest for approval anything was okay.

I may have not gotten the truth from her, for all I know it was the essence of nirvana when they held each other... but I'm going to guess it was pretty much tawdry quickies with the exception of the romantic night at Toxic Student #2's house. That even sounded s****y to me- cold crappy apartment, sleeping on an air mattress with two students in the next room. Magical 



dogman said:


> Instead she acts like he loved her and he's not a bad person he's just in a bad position. The fantasy continues.
> 
> This shows she is still in a fog and not able to see the truth.


I don't exactly want to defend her but I feel like I should point out what I think are facts. I believe she's reevaluating his motives. I think she is spending more time on herself, which is the right thing to do.

I'll admit a part of me wishes that OM's heart is shattered right now, his true love is not his and never will be, but I don't think that's how he feels now. Maybe there was a point where it was, but after tasting the forbidden fruit the thrill likely departed. He commented to his ExGF that the sex with MrsM 'could have been better'. Who knows if that was true- OM's ExGF astutely stated he may have just been saying that to spare her feelings. But if he's a taker, taker, taker, doing what he wants, how could it be better? If he leaves no room for his sex partner to give? 

Stupid stuff to contemplate really, I don't know why we BH are so obsessed with the OM. I guess on a primal biological level they're a threat to be assessed unto infinity, a threat that can never be fully evaluated.


----------



## dogman

DrMathias wrote;
I don't exactly want to defend her but I feel like I should point out what I think are facts. I believe she's reevaluating his motives. I think she is spending more time on herself, which is the right thing to do.
Unquote

This is good. I think we all would like to see her reevaluate the entire fiasco especially OM amd his motives.

The few weeks ago, I was out at a casino with some guys and I hit it off with a woman and we talked for about an hour. Talked about my wife my kids among other things. The woman was much younger than I am. And absolutely beautiful. She said goodbye eventually but then returned about 20 mins later to say "I know your married but...I really want to give you my number"
I said haha no thanks I don't need that kind of trouble in my life. She tried alittle more then She left annoyed with me.

I lost any interest in even talking to someone who would consider messing with a married person. 

I thought to myself...wow what kind of person does that.

I didn't think...gee I'm so special she would consider bending her morals for ME.

MrsM needs to see OM for the POS he is.


----------



## Acabado

Just want to tell you to stay focused and keep hang in there.


----------



## Wazza

DrMathias said:


> I'm going to take a moment to break my self imposed policy of not posting in this thread. First off I agree with dogman here, I'd prefer that the OM had_ some_ positive feelings toward the object of his desire, caring on some level, instead of thinking of her as a wh0re for his use. In the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter- 'love' or its absence is really just a detail in the narrative and doesn't make the situation 'better' in any way. It certainly justifies nothing, it just explains the idiotic rationalizations people in affairs resort to to break what they thought were their personal values.
> 
> From my perspective, he did 'love' her, or whatever passes for 'love' in affair mode, whatever that means, at least for a time. I think he felt 'love' before the affair, when she was in NYC, and up until they engaged in the PA in October. When he came to her office in early Sept. and broke NC, I think he was legitimately distraught over the way they ended. At least that's what I think based off her story, how he looked, how he acted. It could also be that he just felt alone- Chelsea was in Florida.
> 
> I think they were two peas in a pod, and their tryst didn't end the way either of them wanted it to. That's why the resumed the PA, kept the friendship, and ended it to what appears to be mutual satisfaction, *on their terms as they discussed*, with my WW fully intending on staying BFFs. WW and OM are both examples of pure and total selfishness and are probably more alike than I care to face. She only got back to working on me when they were 'done'.
> 
> Also from my perspective once they started having full penetrative sex something changed, I mean where could they go from there? That was the ultimate pinnacle for him, other than checking the sex position tally he had in his mind. There was never going to be nights in Venice, he was never going to stand by her side as she gave birth to his son, they were never going to be able to hold hands in public. Nailing a married woman, teacher, MILF, was pretty much the plateau for him. He was clearly not having his 'love' needs met by MrsM and was courting Chelsea again while they were in PA- he had somehow kept Chelsea on the line and knew she would be moving back to Kansas. I don't know, maybe he just wanted a little trim from her too and he doesn't love her either.
> 
> Honestly the way MrsM describes her encounters with OM, it appears that he learned how to treat a woman in bed from watching porn, as an object and not someone to be cherished. It's foreign to me, that she would accept his advances, the way he initiated, the way he treated her. She didn't care, in her quest for approval anything was okay.
> 
> I may have not gotten the truth from her, for all I know it was the essence of nirvana when they held each other... but I'm going to guess it was pretty much tawdry quickies with the exception of the romantic night at Jillian's. That even sounded s****y to me- cold crappy apartment, sleeping on an air mattress with two students in the next room. Magical
> 
> 
> 
> I don't exactly want to defend her but I feel like I should point out what I think are facts. I believe she's reevaluating his motives. I think she is spending more time on herself, which is the right thing to do.
> 
> I'll admit a part of me wishes that OMs heart is shattered right now, his true love is not his and never will be, but I don't think that's how he feels now. Maybe there was a point where it was, but after tasting the forbidden fruit the thrill likely departed. He commented to Chelsea that the sex with MrsM 'could have been better'. Who knows if that was true- Chelsea astutely stated he may have just been saying that to spare her feelings. But if he's a taker, taker, taker, doing what he wants, how could it be better? If he leaves no room for his sex partner to give?
> 
> Stupid stuff to contemplate really, I don't know why we BH are so obsessed with the OM. I guess on a primal biological level they're a threat to be assessed unto infinity, a threat that can never be fully evaluated.


Careful how many real names you include Doc.


----------



## MrMathias

Wazza said:


> Careful how many real names you include Doc.


Fine, edited. I guess I'll have to sift through hundreds of posts because the two in question been named before multiple times.
Fun. We don't want any Toxic Former Students to have their lives ruined now, do we?


----------



## Wazza

DrMathias said:


> Fine, edited. I guess I'll have to sift through hundreds of posts because the two in question been named before multiple times.
> Fun. We don't want any Toxic Former Students to have their lives ruined now, do we?




You know me and my passion for anonymity. I like my space.

J and CJ, ruin away. Want to borrow my chainsaw? But C helped you and deserves better.

One of the facilitator's of my wife's little tryst was a J as well. Six degrees of separation. She tried to seduce me too....who knows what you might have found possible?


----------



## Racer

It’s odd you say that DrMathias. It helped me knowing the pos OM#1 (the LTPA) took months and months of pressure before my WW spread for him. At least she wasn’t easy.

What helped me wreck my wayward’s “pining away” for him was the timeline. Once it went sexual, that IS what the relationship became; The pinnacle you describe where the relationship changed. Every single time they got together it ended or was rushed into sex. Got down to booty calls even. So much for her ‘caring and wonderful’ OM she’d created in her mind and continued to pine away for after DD. “I missed the way he understood me.” Bull... That was the fantasy... that part of her became ‘not so interesting’ as her anatomy.

It may have started off like that romantic dribble, but in the end, he was nothing more than a horny guy and she was a willing toy. She didn’t see it at first; Because she was the one making ALL the efforts at the relationship (like yours with the book dropoff). To her, it was a special connection. But when you lay it out, he was just taking and doing the bare minimum sweet words... He wasn’t dropping off books, writing poems, or anything like that. (Even better was that I showed her his bragging post in PUA forums about why married women are great girlfriends because they don’t require any work, don’t expect fidelity, blah, blah...). He would call for her to come over ‘to see him because he missed her’... and she would. Stupid girl...


----------



## AnnieAsh

How very odd. I would think a man wouldn't care if the interloper loved his wife or not. Just the fact that she betrayed him. Oh well. Thanks guys!


----------



## bfree

AnnieAsh said:


> How very odd. I would think a man wouldn't care if the interloper loved his wife or not. Just the fact that she betrayed him. Oh well. Thanks guys!


We men are a strange lot Annie. We actually think of love as being something important. We are the romantics in the relationship. We are also sometimes the biggest fools. Of course men are hurt by the betrayal itself. But to compound it with the thought that our wives threw away everything for some meaningless sex is abhorent. Men are often thought of as the sex first gender. We are a lot deeper than that.


----------



## Shaggy

AnnieAsh said:


> So...if he had a great love for her and demanded that she stop sleeping with her husband that would be better? If he had begged her to marry him, that would make it more palatable? Seems like both situations are AWFUL. What difference does it make if he loved her or not? The fact is, she betrayed her husband. For loftier ideals or not, she had sex with another man.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to ask is what is the point of the circular debating over this other persons motives?


The reason is that OM are pure scum. Only someone who is a scumbag would be cheating with a married woman. Good men simply would not get involved with a married woman. It's really that simple. 

The fact that a WW can't recognize that a guy who would be with her when she's married shows that there is still fog rolling around in there. The OM has no honor. The OM has no class. The OM only wants to get laid. Especially this particular OM.

It wasn't him that broke NC. HE frankly didn't care less. He didn't miss her, her didn't pine for her. He was happy to get sex from her because he's a spineless honorless scumbag.

And she needs to recognize that because frankly her having a strong negative reaction to the OM would actually show Matt that this time isn't going to end like that time when she was so apologetic, yet was lying through her teeth.

Frankly, I have a lot more faith in WS that come on here and say about the OM - "I don't know what the h3ll I was thinking. He's a looser, why did I let him touch me?"

But in the case the WS won't go there. She won't throw the OM under the bus. The bottom line is she's either with Matt or she isn't. Just like in the affair it feels like she's sitting on the fence - not wanting to throw stones at all at the OM, lest she hurt his tender little feelings.


----------



## jim123

Yep, Om is not a class guy but is not the problem right now. Mrs M wanted this. She begged in the skype message. She did little shows for him. 

Mrs. M said that the reason she broke it off with CJ and "returned" to Matt was she did not see a future with CJ. What if she did? What if CJ was 10 years older? Per these words, she is back with Matt because CJ did not measure up and not because she loves Matt. That is a big difference.

I am not sure about how the Mrs. could have confusion between Matt and CJ as the choice of CJ would have meant leaving her son.


----------



## Chaparral

Mrs. M, you seem to be naive. But I think its really over confidence in your own intelligence. Like someone who thinks they are to smart/aaware to get scammed.

For example, did you know there are websites that teach men, especially young men to pick up women. Worse, there are websites that specialize in how to pick up married women. That sounds simple but there are buttons any salesman learns to push. And like a fellow said the other day, all sales are based on emotions. I am posting a post made by a fellow who specializes in married women.

Remember, men are looking for one thing, it may turn into something more occasionally, but it all boils down to one thing 90% of the time.

* Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message *


----------



## Tony55

Shaggy said:


> And she needs to recognize that because frankly her having a strong negative reaction to the OM would actually show Matt that this time isn't going to end like that time when she was so apologetic, yet was lying through her teeth.
> 
> But in the case the WS won't go there. She won't throw the OM under the bus. The bottom line is she's either with Matt or she isn't. Just like in the affair it feels like she's sitting on the fence - not wanting to throw stones at all at the OM, lest she hurt his tender little feelings.


Shaggy, first let me say I don't disagree with you about the low moral standards of the OM, I also understand your revulsion for him and for Mrs M's behavior, I completely get it.

But here's the conundrum.

A WS needs to be 100% honest about how they feel, but if they don't feel what the BS wants them to feel, then they're stuck with either not expressing how they feel, or lying about it; both options are unacceptable. So what's the WS to do? If a person doesn't feel something, how can they force themselves to feel it?

I really don't have the answer to this dilemma, and it really is a dilemma, no one, including the person themselves, can force their mind to feel what it doesn't feel. You can try brainwashing, negative reinforcement, hypnotherapy, and who knows what else is out there, but at the end of the day, the change, if any, isn't sincere, and it won't be until that persons mind comes to that conclusion on its own.

So, what's Mrs M to do? Say something she doesn't mean? I'm not sympathetic to her, I know she got herself into this mess, but do we want her to lie just to make Matt and everyone in this forum feel better about her?

T


----------



## Shaggy

Compliment
Isolate
Bed
Forget

The players playbook.


----------



## Shaggy

Tony55 said:


> But here's the conundrum.
> 
> A WS needs to be 100% honest about how they feel, .....
> 
> So, what's Mrs M to do? Say something she doesn't mean? I'm not sympathetic to her, I know she got herself into this mess, but do we want her to lie just to make Matt and everyone in this forum feel better about her?
> 
> T


My answer is simple, because I believe it to be simple, not because I'm trying to be flippant.

She needs to be honest with herself and with Matt.

That's been the problem all along.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Shaggy said:


> The reason is that OM are pure scum. Only someone who is a scumbag would be cheating with a married woman. Good men simply would not get involved with a married woman. It's really that simple.
> 
> The fact that a WW can't recognize that a guy who would be with her when she's married shows that there is still fog rolling around in there. The OM has no honor. The OM has no class. The OM only wants to get laid. Especially this particular OM.
> 
> It wasn't him that broke NC. HE frankly didn't care less. He didn't miss her, her didn't pine for her. He was happy to get sex from her because he's a spineless honorless scumbag.
> 
> And she needs to recognize that because frankly her having a strong negative reaction to the OM would actually show Matt that this time isn't going to end like that time when she was so apologetic, yet was lying through her teeth.
> 
> Frankly, I have a lot more faith in WS that come on here and say about the OM - "I don't know what the h3ll I was thinking. He's a looser, why did I let him touch me?"
> 
> But in the case the WS won't go there. She won't throw the OM under the bus. The bottom line is she's either with Matt or she isn't. Just like in the affair it feels like she's sitting on the fence - not wanting to throw stones at all at the OM, lest she hurt his tender little feelings.


Then I guess I'll ask you too: what do you think is a reasonable timeframe for her to have these "epiphanies?" What sort of actions can she take to clear her fog? The realizations are not going to come just because some random forum dudes told her so. 

And if a WS turned around and started bad mouthing the AP, I guarantee you'd all jump on her and tell her she's blame shifting.


----------



## Shaggy

AnnieAsh said:


> Then I guess I'll ask you too: what do you think is a reasonable timeframe for her to have these "epiphanies?" What sort of actions can she take to clear her fog? The realizations are not going to come just because some random forum dudes told her so.
> 
> And if a WS turned around and started bad mouthing the AP, I guarantee you'd all jump on her and tell her she's blame shifting.


I think it should happen at the sametome as claimed epiphanie here she claims to have chosen her husband and claims to have remorse for cheating.

A alcholoic that's ready to quit doesn't look fondly at the booze they've chosen to stop.

A drug addict who chooses to quit doesn't look fondly on the drugs she's chosen to quit.

Part of choosing s a rejection if the thing you are dumping. If it really was so good and so great then logically you should not dumping it. But yet you have chosen to dump it.

Keeping the feelings and fondness alive is continuing the betrayal, and shows true remorse hasn't set in. I believe that true remorse is such a life changing feeling that it turns you upside down forever. It s a deep awakening of what your choices and actions have caused and it become a new lifelong quest to never repeat it,and to fix those you've wronged. Part that change is to view as hated threats the things, circumstances, and people who contributed to your heinous act.

In the case of a cheater, the OM is part of what caused the pain, and any lingering good feelings for the OM meanthst he remains a threat and therefor a the remorse would drive the person to take action to stop and neutralize the threat.

When the WS refuses to throw the OM under the bus, that says their loyalty has not returned solely to the BS and that the pledges of remorse and desire for R are false.

At its heart cheating is a betrayal of the WSs loyalty to the BS. For R to succeed the WS must truly switch their loyalty back to the BS, with nothing for the AP.

If they R and the WS hasn't truly rejected the AP then the AP is always going to be part of the marriage. That's why I often write, there is a big difference between the WS stopping having sex with the AP, and the WS returning to the marriage.

So often the BS is so desperate to just have the WS stop having sex with the AP that they forget this and attempt R without the WS actually returning to the marriage.

In this case I think Matt ha a very good handle on this and won't agsin be fooled into letting R be on the table until he knows in his gut that her loyalty has really returned to him.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote by Dr. Mathias
> From my perspective, he did 'love' her, or whatever passes for 'love' in affair mode, whatever that means


Dr Mathias this post is not a slam against you.

I read so many times on this forum the word love. It seems that those that get involved with betrayal affairs either skip over some of the main characteristics of love or just let their needs and their feelings rule their selfishness.

I am going to use Mrs. Mathias’s quote to illustrate just one of the situations that prove that this word love that they use does nothing but cheapen the word.




> *Quote By Mrs. Mathias*
> I told him that Matt and my son were the most important things to me, and he said he understood that, wanted me to be happy and just loved me anyway



Mrs. Mathias tells this OM that her husband and child are most important to her and then the OM says that he understands and tells Mrs. Matthias that he loved her. *Then the OM joins in with Mrs. Matthias and betrays that which Mrs. Matthias says is most important to her; her husband and son*. They have sex knowing that the husband and child will be damaged. *What a perversion of the word love!!!*



> *Quote of Dr. Mathias*
> From my perspective, he did 'love' her[/
> 
> *No he did not and neither did she. Real love includes the following: *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres”
> 
> “Love is the ACTIVE CONCERN for that which is loved”
> Erich Fromm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *They did not have love, what they had was some feelings and needs that they put ahead of the husband and child and did not include the characteristics that are described above.*
> 
> I have read so many cheaters on this forum that pervert the word love with their stories about their feelings and their needs that it is alarming!
> 
> If you really want the truth then you will add the above definitions to the word love. Apply them to the cheater stories and you will see that the cheaters did not have those virtues as part of their definition of love.
> 
> I am not posting this to bash Mrs. Mathias as I do believe that she is taking tough actions to improve her situation.
> 
> *I post this in hopes that anyone thinking about cheating will apply some of the true characteristics of love before they rationalize their own needs and selfishness as love.*
Click to expand...


----------



## Kasler

^ Its not that people want her to blameshift, its that OM is still on a pedestal. 

Walks into Matt's home and gave him the coc* block of the century and shes giving him the benefit of the doubt. "He isn't that way" as if she 'knows' him implying a connection yet to be severed. 

Also, a lot of people DON'T have these epiphanies at all. Shes pretty foggy, but most of her actions were caused by herself, not fog. 

Dr Matt is walking into this with his nose wide open and he has no clue of it. He thinks he knows, but he really doesn't, to be expected really. No one knows much of anything when it comes to the first encounter of infidelity. 

She is still not over OM, and she still hasn't even been able to realize it.

This puts the Dr in a very dangerous place since hes already investing emotions and trust in her again, setting him up for Dday # 5. Maybe a few weeks from now, or months or years, but with these issues left so unresolved and on the brink of R no less, I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind of its eventual recurrence if this is permitted.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Shaggy, I can't say I agree with the immediate need for immense hatred for the om. If it wasn't him, it would be another. Hatred for one's own actions in the affair is owning it, not blaming some dude getting some strange.


----------



## Kasler

^ You're still not getting it. Its that while she may have a few choice adjectives for him, a guy who would sleep with a married woman, she still thinks of him as 'decent' for the most part. 

Thats a definite problem.

I'm not saying she should see him as scourge of the earth and originator of all her problems, but she still doesn't see him for the PoS he is. 

Its like a battered wife saying her husband is an abusive bastard but has a good heart deep down.


----------



## JCD

Tony55 said:


> Shaggy, first let me say I don't disagree with you about the low moral standards of the OM, I also understand your revulsion for him and for Mrs M's behavior, I completely get it.
> 
> But here's the conundrum.
> 
> A WS needs to be 100% honest about how they feel, but if they don't feel what the BS wants them to feel, then they're stuck with either not expressing how they feel, or lying about it; both options are unacceptable. So what's the WS to do? If a person doesn't feel something, how can they force themselves to feel it?
> 
> I really don't have the answer to this dilemma, and it really is a dilemma, no one, including the person themselves, can force their mind to feel what it doesn't feel. You can try brainwashing, negative reinforcement, hypnotherapy, and who knows what else is out there, but at the end of the day, the change, if any, isn't sincere, and it won't be until that persons mind comes to that conclusion on its own.
> 
> So, what's Mrs M to do? Say something she doesn't mean? I'm not sympathetic to her, I know she got herself into this mess, but do we want her to lie just to make Matt and everyone in this forum feel better about her?
> 
> T


QFT. I was defending my EA loudly. Wasn't she a nice person? Didn't she commisserate with me about some many trouble in my life? Didn't she offer to send me naked...um....wait...what?

Unfortunately, the 'wait...what' took many MANY months to rear up and have me seriously reassess it. 

Which is why I say YES, her feeling are real to her NOW. We can't know the OMs feelings.

She should be honest and WE should understand that the OM wasn't necessarily raised under a rock. His actions IN THIS INSTANCE show a remarkable lack of morals and respect, but than again, we don't see him helping little old ladies move furniture, do we?

If a person took a single snapshot of our lives and our enemy got to pick that snapshot, how flattering would WE look?

So FOR THE WAY THE OM ACTED WITH REGARD TO Mrs. M, BAD ACTOR! No Emmy for you! I hope you do dinner theater FOREVER!

But that doesn't mean that nothing good about either of these people exists. 

Sigh. Why am I defending this guy? He didn't behave properly.

I know why. If my son came to me and confessed a screw up of this magnitude, I'd have some hard words for him. But I'd also see his COMPLETE picture and not just 'my son the adulterer'. I'd also ask him to make things right with the people he wronged by never going near any of them again.

Let's see how well the OM does with that.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kasler said:


> ^ You're still not getting it. Its that while she may have a few choice adjectives for him, a guy who would sleep with a married woman, she still thinks of him as 'decent' for the most part.
> 
> Thats a definite problem.
> 
> I'm not saying she should see him as scourge of the earth and originator of all her problems, but she still doesn't see him for the PoS he is.
> 
> Its like a battered wife saying her husband is an abusive bastard but has a good heart.


 You can think that I'm not getting it. Though I probably relate to her a little more than any of you. Of course she doesn't see him as POS. I just think it does her a genuine disservice to allow her to examine the om's motives and all that jazz. A constant post-mortem of the affair does not teach her proper boundaries like no opposite sex friendships, no drinking without her husband, no overnights away...you know actual actions that help her to earn trust. Navel gazing does not equal positive forward healing actions. 

But whatever. Clearly I am not communicating my point adequately. I hope I have contributed a little something. 

Annie


----------



## warlock07

The OM can be a player, but every OM need not beone. OM's are of different kinds too. Lack of integriy and scummy morals is common theme that bonds them.

The next OM she meets might not fit the stereotype of a player OM.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Kasler*
> ^ You're still not getting it. Its that while she may have a few choice adjectives for him, a guy who would sleep with a married woman, *she still thinks of him as 'decent'* for the most part.
> 
> Thats a definite problem.
> 
> I'm not saying she should see him as scourge of the earth and originator of all her problems, but she still doesn't see him for the PoS he is.
> 
> Its like a battered wife saying her husband is an abusive bastard but has a good heart.
> 
> *BY ANNIE*
> You can think that I'm not getting it. Though I probably relate to her a little more than any of you. Of course she doesn't see him as POS. I just think it does her a genuine disservice to allow her to examine the om's motives and all that jazz. A constant post-mortem of the affair does not teach her proper boundaries like no opposite sex friendships, no drinking without her husband, no overnights away...you know actual actions that help her to earn trust. Navel gazing does not equal positive forward healing actions.
> 
> But whatever. Clearly I am not communicating my point adequately. I hope I have contributed a little something.
> 
> Annie



*Kasler makes a good point from a man’s view*

Annie makes some very good points but I would venture to say that she does not relate to Mr. Mathias more than some of the men on this thread.

*A man will have a definite problem with his wife saying the OM is “Decent”*


So I see Annie as having made some very good points about Mrs. Matthias but not fully understanding the affect that Mrs. Matthias saying the OM is decent will have on Mr. Matthias. It does not matter if the OM is decent or not, that is not the point. *The point is that any woman saying that about a man that she betrayed her husband with is going to upset the husband big time.*

That is a man’s view on what a man thinks about his wife saying good things about the OM.


----------



## bfree

Tony55 said:


> Shaggy, first let me say I don't disagree with you about the low moral standards of the OM, I also understand your revulsion for him and for Mrs M's behavior, I completely get it.
> 
> But here's the conundrum.
> 
> A WS needs to be 100% honest about how they feel, but if they don't feel what the BS wants them to feel, then they're stuck with either not expressing how they feel, or lying about it; both options are unacceptable. So what's the WS to do? If a person doesn't feel something, how can they force themselves to feel it?
> 
> I really don't have the answer to this dilemma, and it really is a dilemma, no one, including the person themselves, can force their mind to feel what it doesn't feel. You can try brainwashing, negative reinforcement, hypnotherapy, and who knows what else is out there, but at the end of the day, the change, if any, isn't sincere, and it won't be until that persons mind comes to that conclusion on its own.
> 
> So, what's Mrs M to do? Say something she doesn't mean? I'm not sympathetic to her, I know she got herself into this mess, but do we want her to lie just to make Matt and everyone in this forum feel better about her?
> 
> T


Tony, if this is the case then the word reconciliation should never ever leave her mouth. Because if you can't say the words *and mean them *then you should not be married.


----------



## bfree

The bottom line is that its not about whether the OM loved her or was a decent man. The bottom line is does Mrs M believe the OM loved her and is a decent man. In her heart if she cannot say no to this question then she is not ready to reconcile or deserves to stay married.


----------



## WyshIknew

AnnieAsh said:


> Of course I didn't come back last night lol. We had a nice night in bed and he has agreed to bake cookies with me for our gifts to neighbors and teachers, after some convincing.
> 
> We talked about the whole "settling" thing and he says the thought never crossed his mind. He looked really confused about the whole thing. He's my husband, the father of my children, of course he's the best man in the world for me (my thoughts).
> 
> As far as Dr Harley's theory, you can agree or not. He explained it like this: an alcoholic can look at booze with disgust because it cost him his life/health/wife, but the moment he stops attending meetings or enters a BAR, the old feelings come back. Which is where the boundaries and precautions come in.
> 
> We are having a lot of success following the program *shrug* my husband likes it because we have a schedule of times to spend together, he has a list of things that make me feel loved, and he gets the 100% transparency and honesty that HE needs.
> 
> I have a shorter thread somewhere, if there are more questions. I am really sorry, Mrs M for butting in again. Hugs to you and your family.


Sorry hope this isn't regarded as a threadjack but I think it highlights a point for Mrs M and DrM.

You say the whole settling thing never crossed his mind, but you have another thread in CWI where your husband was/is having big triggers over you having to visit OM's city. If he is not worried that, even subconciously, you have settled for him why is he so concerned about you going to the same city as the OM? Or am I missing something here?

These are the same things that DrM his going to be dealing with on a regular basis, that sick feeling of not knowing if MrsM is capable of carrying on the affair with a man she still seems to regard as worthy of some consideration.
There will for some time be that worry that she has had her fun and is now settling for good ol' dependable DrM.


It may not be the correct way of thinking Annie and MrsM but what you should realise is that you should approach this from the way a man thinks, not the way *you* think.

I obviously can't speak for either of your husbands or for you as everyone is different. As they say YMMV but a lot of husbands do have this fear, even if they hide it, that their WW is settling for them.


----------



## BjornFree

^If you think about it, in a very real sense they are settling. If MrsM's affair had gone on for a few more months or if it was with an older man who made a lot more money than DrM, I don't think she would have had any problems leaving her husband or have any remorse. Female hypergamy. One of the major reasons for her wanting R include the fact that DrM has a more stable income and the fact that he's a family man. She's not going to have that assurance with the OM. If you look at it from the Dr's perspective she is indeed settling, whatever may be the case.

One thing that bugs men(me, at least) about the whole reconciliation thing after a wife's affair is the need to swallow their pride and keep doing what they have to. Couples may claim that it isn't true but there will always be that dark place where the guys will resent everything about the affair and their WWs. 

This is why R is such a sh!tty deal for the BS. Not many want to opt for it.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> Tony, if this is the case then the word reconciliation should never ever leave her mouth. Because if you can't say the words *and mean them *then you should not be married *at this point in time.*


Here, I fixed that for you. There is a vast difference between not being suitable marriage material NOW and NEVER being marriage material.

I do not have a body builder's physique NOW. Can I get there? That is a whole other issue.


----------



## Wazza

I guess I have an unusual perspective on reconciliation.

If MrsM had been unmarried, in love with Matt and OM, and struggled to choose, then chosen Matt, what would we say? Yet everyone now wants to beat her up because of confused feelings.

I believe in lifelong marriage, and sometimes the wheels fall off and you have to commit to get them back on. You have to work at the marriage.

In MrsM's case, assuming Matt decides to reconcile, her job is to work at the marriage. I'm with Annie that telling her "you can't feel this way" is not helpful.

Telling her "you have a great big problem saying no to OM and you REALLY need to work on it" is hopefully helpful. She can work on that. And maybe it means recognising she will always have that weakness, and setting boundaries to avoid bad situations. 

Telling her "you don't get all the damage your actions caused" is probably also helpful, not to punish her but to give her a true perspective on her actions.

As for how the BS feels...well, yeah, it hurts sometimes. It never goes away. And your cheating spouse triggers the hurt sometimes. But once you get past that, I can't imagine being with someone else and thinking "that's it, I can relax, I am 100% safe". Those who want that are, I think, chasing a Hollywood-infused fantasy, and destined for disappointment.

22 years out, and I still am working at making things better...still confronting issues arising from the affair and working through them. I don't know that there is any magic wand. I just decided my marriage was worth working through the pain. Matt and MrsM need to decide whether theirs is.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Here, I fixed that for you. There is a vast difference between not being suitable marriage material NOW and NEVER being marriage material.
> 
> I do not have a body builder's physique NOW. Can I get there? That is a whole other issue.


Yes, you are correct. Thank you for adding that.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> I guess I have an unusual perspective on reconciliation.
> 
> If MrsM had been unmarried, in love with Matt and OM, and struggled to choose, then chosen Matt, what would we say? Yet everyone now wants to beat her up because of confused feelings.
> 
> I believe in lifelong marriage, and sometimes the wheels fall off and you have to commit to get them back on. You have to work at the marriage.
> 
> In MrsM's case, assuming Matt decides to reconcile, her job is to work at the marriage. I'm with Annie that telling her *"you can't feel this way" is not helpful.*
> 
> Telling her "you have a great big problem saying no to OM and you REALLY need to work on it" is hopefully helpful. She can work on that. And maybe it means recognising she will always have that weakness, and setting boundaries to avoid bad situations.
> 
> Telling her "you don't get all the damage your actions caused" is probably also helpful, not to punish her but to give her a true perspective on her actions.
> 
> As for how the BS feels...well, yeah, it hurts sometimes. It never goes away. And your cheating spouse triggers the hurt sometimes. But once you get past that, I can't imagine being with someone else and thinking "that's it, I can relax, I am 100% safe". Those who want that are, I think, chasing a Hollywood-infused fantasy, and destined for disappointment.
> 
> 22 years out, and I still am working at making things better...still confronting issues arising from the affair and working through them. I don't know that there is any magic wand. I just decided my marriage was worth working through the pain. Matt and MrsM need to decide whether theirs is.


I will counter that with saying that if she does feel that way then Matt has every right not to trust her and not to reconcile with her......yet (see I'm learning JCD). She can learn to say no to him all she wants. She can eventually comprehend all the damage she caused. But until she can put her feelings for her AP aside she can not be a good spouse. As long as she is living in fantasy affair world where her AP cared about her, loved her, etc she cannot move on from her affair and Matt can not move on from her affair.

Let's put this into perspective. This POS was her student. He KNEW how important her career was to her. This POS knew she was married. He met Matt. He met their child. He was at their house. HE KNEW WHAT SHE HAD TO LOSE! Yet he engaged in an affair with her anyway. He pursued a relationship with her knowing that it would eventually cost her EVERYTHING. And then when she tried to break it off and go NC after Dday when Mrs M was still trying to save their marriage....HE CAME BACK making sure she did in fact lose everything!!! Is this a decent man? Is this someone who loved her? How could a decent man that loved her DO THIS? Until she sees this reality she is lost.


----------



## WyshIknew

:iagree:

100%


----------



## Racer

Tony55 said:


> A WS needs to be 100% honest about how they feel, but if they don't feel what the BS wants them to feel, then they're stuck with either not expressing how they feel, or lying about it; both options are unacceptable. So what's the WS to do? If a person doesn't feel something, how can they force themselves to feel it?


Actually I was a bit different. I know my wife is not me, therefore does not ‘think’ like me. 

Get it down to basics: Where do feelings come from? You perceptions of the world and life around you. From there you react; you direct your mind what direction to take emotionally. There are a ton of tricks to make things ‘less of an affront’; Killing a mass murderer versus shooting a girl scout selling cookies. The actions are the same, but the emotional response is vastly different.

So; What I wanted was for her to see what I saw instead of ignoring it. Shaggy has that it right. This is a guy who doesn’t respect marriage. He didn’t respect her kids or her husband. He didn’t even respect his own girlfriend. Waywards are extremely good at ignoring ANY negatives that might ‘distract’ their mind from thinking they are the greatest thing ever. The excuse: It was easy for her to ignore that ‘trait’ because she probably never wanted to marry him. But did she apply it toward helping her define who he is such as his character? Nope... they never do. They ‘overlook’ a ton. That’s the jedi mind trick of fogging... It is a specific mental process to manipulate your own emotional response to something you can accept. 

Yet you can bet your ass that if DrMathias disrespected the marriage, she would use that to help her define who he is as a man. Get her thinking about why the rules are different for different people. And go back to basics..... Should people be judged on different standards? In my opinion, no. My tolerance level can be adjusted based on the relationship, but who they are I see it all and weigh it. 

I should also note that I weigh it by my own standards... No one else can ‘make me’ like or dislike someone else. I don’t try to do that with my WW. I just ask she consider ‘everything’ instead of cherry picking what supports the notions she wants to believe, and discarding everything that might reach another conclusion. She needs to open her mind and see the whole picture. Once there, she’s free to judge me and everyone else making her own choices (things I have no control over).

Where I’ve “gone in deep” is that a BS can really influence the perception. That is where we have a bit of control. So keep ramming the facts in her face. That has a tendency to be very, very hard to see it as something ‘good’ , ‘pure’, ‘noble’, and all that other stuff they aspire to be. It paints a completely different picture than the one they want to see. And hopefully, someday, they will really want to change themselves because they detest who they allowed themselves to be... The rock bottom that is necessary in R.

Btw; This same concept is where ‘demonizing’ the BS comes into play. It is them trying to force a specific emotional reaction toward you to make it ‘less bad’ that they are breaking their vows to you.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> I will counter that with saying that if she does feel that way then Matt has every right not to trust her and not to reconcile with her......yet (see I'm learning JCD). She can learn to say no to him all she wants. She can eventually comprehend all the damage she caused. But until she can put her feelings for her AP aside she can not be a good spouse. As long as she is living in fantasy affair world where her AP cared about her, loved her, etc she cannot move on from her affair and Matt can not move on from her affair.
> 
> Let's put this into perspective. This POS was her student. He KNEW how important her career was to her. This POS knew she was married. He met Matt. He met their child. He was at their house. HE KNEW WHAT SHE HAD TO LOSE! Yet he engaged in an affair with her anyway. He pursued a relationship with her knowing that it would eventually cost her EVERYTHING. And then when she tried to break it off and go NC after Dday when Mrs M was still trying to save their marriage....HE CAME BACK making sure she did in fact lose everything!!! Is this a decent man? Is this someone who loved her? How could a decent man that loved her DO THIS? Until she sees this reality she is lost.


You are mixing a few ideas there, and really I think you are talking about your own walkaway point.

Matt has to decide his walk away point, imo. Many men could not get over what she has done, regardless of how contrite she was or what changes she makes. He has to decide what he will accept, in circumstances where none of it is what he would have chosen. Maybe it is already too late. At the other extreme maybe he will allow an open marriage. i think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

As for OM....well....Matt seems to feel there was genuine affection there. I'm not going to argue that point if he saw it too. Maybe she does see reality. But you write as if OM's reason for the affair was to damage the marriage. I think the damage was just a by product.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> You are mixing a few ideas there, and really I think you are talking about your own walkaway point.
> 
> Matt has to decide his walk away point, imo. Many men could not get over what she has done, regardless of how contrite she was or what changes she makes. He has to decide what he will accept, in circumstances where none of it is what he would have chosen. Maybe it is already too late. At the other extreme maybe he will allow an open marriage. i think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
> 
> As for OM....well....Matt seems to feel there was genuine affection there. I'm not going to argue that point if he saw it too. Maybe she does see reality. *But you write as if OM's reason for the affair was to damage the marriage. I think the damage was just a by product.*


Obviously Matt is going to see things from his perspective. But even though he has decided to divorce he still loves his wife. He knows it, she knows it, and we know it. She is also the mother of his child. He has a vested interest in protecting the image of her in his mind...at least somewhat. I've read both their threads and I will commend them both for being very open and honest. However, I am an outsider. Yes I was a BS but I am in a very good place right now. I have also made peace with my ex in a fashion so I have no hatred for her anymore, only pity. I am seeing things in a completely objective manner when I make my posts. The OM may have indeed had some affection for her. But I can have affection for a stray dog or a lost child. It doesn't mean I want to take them home with me and at the end of the day their fate doesn't affect me at all.

Did the OM set out to destroy their marriage? No. I just don't think he gave a whit what happened to their marriage as long as he got what he wanted. And that is in no way decent or loving. It's evil.


----------



## dogman

AnnieAsh said:


> Shaggy, I can't say I agree with the immediate need for immense hatred for the om. If it wasn't him, it would be another. Hatred for one's own actions in the affair is owning it, not blaming some dude getting some strange.



You see your wording says a lot. 

"some dude getting some strange" is demeaning to the woman. I would forever be hurt by someone thinking of my wife as just "strange pu-ssy"

This is why as odd as it is, even if my wife runs off with someone, she is the mother of my children and I want her respected. That's why it matters what the OM intentions are. 
All of this talk about realizing the OM is scum is for the betrayed husband not the cheating wife.

As far as the wife is concerned, yes it's important to have her take responsibility and all the self realizations. But that's only part of the equation. A big part is being ANTI OM, so I'm sure she has no urges for him. The rest is good but security first then self realization.

Like I said before I like how Regret and Changingme view the OM in their lives.


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> I think it should happen at the sametome as claimed epiphanie here she claims to have chosen her husband and claims to have remorse for cheating.
> A alcholoic that's ready to quit doesn't look fondly at the booze they've chosen to stop.
> A drug addict who chooses to quit doesn't look fondly on the drugs she's chosen to quit.


That's actually the problem: it's untruth. It's not nice but the ugly truth is I "loved" booze and I loved drugs, I craved them for a very long time after I knew I had to quit and then after decided to do it. I started when my wife got pregnant, it required so much focus and energies that I still wasn't a good husband one year after the "sobering up" decision nor a good parent to my newborn for a while.
It's the very definition of brokeness, being driven in two opposite, contradictory directions. It's ugly, it's the truth. We are that complex and ugly sometimes. It's doesn't means it has to be tolerated. It just is.
I know where you come across, I understand why you push, why I keep pushing, shining light into the cracks (as Mr Blunt and the recent love definitions post or Racer with his cherry picking/ignoring facts post), we do it with the best of intentions. I hope Mrs know we are trying to help her.
I'm sending positive vibes to Mrs so she reachs all the needed self realizations and get out of the fog ASAP.


----------



## AnnieAsh

WyshIknew said:


> Sorry hope this isn't regarded as a threadjack but I think it highlights a point for Mrs M and DrM.
> 
> You say the whole settling thing never crossed his mind, but you have another thread in CWI where your husband was/is having big triggers over you having to visit OM's city. If he is not worried that, even subconciously, you have settled for him why is he so concerned about you going to the same city as the OM? Or am I missing something here?
> 
> These are the same things that DrM his going to be dealing with on a regular basis, that sick feeling of not knowing if MrsM is capable of carrying on the affair with a man she still seems to regard as worthy of some consideration.
> There will for some time be that worry that she has had her fun and is now settling for good ol' dependable DrM.
> 
> 
> It may not be the correct way of thinking Annie and MrsM but what you should realise is that you should approach this from the way a man thinks, not the way *you* think.
> 
> I obviously can't speak for either of your husbands or for you as everyone is different. As they say YMMV but a lot of husbands do have this fear, even if they hide it, that their WW is settling for them.


My husband was having triggers because he thought I would not have the willpower to take care of business in The City, without going downtown to see om. So, he accompanies me or sends my mother. Then I don't even have to have the struggle or urge. 

He's not the kind of guy to worry if a woman is settling for him. He DOES worry about being lied to or duped. That's always been one of his fears, which explains his need to methodically research everything. 

But you know what? I could definitely see why a BS would worry that the WS felt they were settling. What a scary thought.


----------



## WyshIknew

bfree said:


> Obviously Matt is going to see things from his perspective. But even though he has decided to divorce he still loves his wife. He knows it, she knows it, and we know it. She is also the mother of his child. He has a vested interest in protecting the image of her in his mind...at least somewhat. I've read both their threads and I will commend them both for being very open and honest. However, I am an outsider. Yes I was a BS but I am in a very good place right now. I have also made peace with my ex in a fashion so I have no hatred for her anymore, only pity. I am seeing things in a completely objective manner when I make my posts. The OM may have indeed had some affection for her. But I can have affection for a stray dog or a lost child. It doesn't mean I want to take them home with me and at the end of the day their fate doesn't affect me at all.
> 
> Did the OM set out to destroy their marriage? No. I just don't think he gave a whit what happened to their marriage as long as he got what he wanted. And that is in no way decent or loving. It's evil.


Has he decided to divorce?

I must have missed that, was it on his thread?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

There's a lot here for me to go through from the last couple of days. I just wanted to let you all know that I am still reading and appreciating all the thoughts and viewpoints being shared.

I'll try to catch up today and post an update of things on my end.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Mrs_Mathias:

When you're so fresh off your waywardness it's hard for you to debase your ex-lover the way that your husband and others do. Because if he was that bad, it's a reflection on you and you'd be effectively debasing yourself. 

That's a hard thing to do, and yelling out "I'm guilty! I'm guilty!" isn't going to bring about the change that you need in order to put this behind you. It'll do the opposite probably: sado-masochism makes love so much more exciting, and I don't mean whips and chains. Don't wanna get on my soapbox, but love has a very strong sado-masochistic side.

At some point you're gonna have to take your ex-lover off the pedestal completely. You say you've done so already but it's not that easy. Believe me, I know. It's not that you have to debase him, but can you really get to the point where you feel nothing for him? That you can shrug your shoulders and say, eh, I don't feel it anymore and that you can look at your husband without the constant reminder of Him and what you did with Him?


----------



## loveisforever

Mrs_Mathias said:
"I guess I thought that there would come a time where OM would find someone he loved more than me, someone who could really be a partner to him in a relationship, and I could let him go, knowing he was going to be happy and loved in life. But I was selfish enough to accept his love for me one day at a time, despite feeling that I couldn't return what he deserved, and he said that was ok with him, that he just wanted to make me happy and share whatever we could. It was ridiculously delusional on both our parts."

No, Mrs_Mathias. Both of you and OM were not "delusional" per se, both of your two cheaters knew: As long as your two cheaters can get what you want NOW, it doe not matter about future. You were happily cheating on your husband, OM was happily cheating on his girlfriend. The word"LOVE" was just a password for both of you to get things going. You should not use "love" to OM and yet claim 'love" for your husband. These should be two totally different words.


----------



## loveisforever

AnnieAsh said:


> Why is there so much of a focus on om? I can speak from experience, the constant talking and dissecting of his motives and actions and thoughts do NOTHING to diffuse what a WW feels for him. In fact, I found it made me miss that connection MORE. I kept thinking "what if what if what if."
> 
> No contact is no contact INCLUDING thinking of him incessantly, looking at pictures and reminiscing. Her HUSBAND is what is important here. Turning my thoughts and feelings to my marriage is what I work on every day. That is what gives me distance from Mike.


Annieash: If you are still think favorably of OM, you has not got over him. The lack of dissecting of his bad motive or acknowledging his horrible damage to your family is not good for your R in long term. I remember that you planned at least once to go back to OM when your husband disappointed you. You are still vulnerable to repeat that because you rug sweep the issue with OM. The OM is BAD for you!

For the WW to get over OM, she should put OM where he belongs. The old mindset of whitewashing him just shows it is a long way to go for WW to even deserve a R.


----------



## AnnieAsh

loveisforever said:


> Annieash: If you are still think favorably of OM, you has not got over him. The lack of dissecting of his bad motive or acknowledging his horrible damage to your family is not good for your R in long term. I remember that you planned at least once to go back to OM when your husband disappointed you. You are still vulnerable to repeat that because you rug sweep the issue with OM. The OM is BAD for you!
> 
> For the WW to get over OM, she should put OM where he belongs. The old mindset of whitewashing him just shows it is a long way to go for WW to even deserve a R.


Hiya Love, I have my own thread Triggers for my BH. I dont want to crowd someone else's thread with my own issues. 

How are you, Mrs M?


----------



## Thinkitthrough

I have been reading threads, researching and wrestling with them to make some sense of my experiences and that of Mrs and Dr. Mathias.
Regards the OM. Annie is right, whether or not he loved MrsM doesn't matter because he acted enough like it to convince her he did. Can she love two men at the same time, sort of. Its just that it would be two different kinds of love, and one would ultimately cancel the other.
The fact that they hid their activity shows that they knew what they were doing was wrong and the continued the relationship knowing it would destroy the relkationships they were committed to. The odds were against the love affair lasting, but like a bomb once exploded the damage is done. Should MrsM hate the OM and is it necessary for her to really give the affair up? The OM's responses would seem to indicate that all he really wanted her for was sex, and he was using Mrs.M and dropped her at the first rough patch. It would also seem that there was some ego in his actions, "I can take your wife and you can have her when I'm done." He did it with her tacit agreement. Does she need to hate the OM to realize how he has wronged her, and she her husband. What matters is that she recommits and rededicates her self in words and deeds to her family and husband and that she put the OM out of mind. If she has learned from this disaster only time will tell. In the end it is up to her to convince DrMathias that she is a different and better person and that she is up for the work it will take to regain his trust. Our advice will always be affected by our own hurts and our distance form the couple involved.
Everything else is speculation on our parts. One thing is true. DrMathias holds the cards and he will, in the end, decide if he can risk his heart again.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Okay, so here's my thought dump for the day...

We had a decent weekend together at home. Matt is struggling right now with getting distracted by something enjoyable and then feeling the weight of the affair crash back down on him when the distraction is finished. He saw a movie with friends Friday night, and came home really hurt and angry. I just tried to talk with him, and be there in whatever way he would let me.

I've been fighting my own depression about the affair, and particularly feelings of loneliness/isolation. I can recognize that most of that is self-inflicted. I have some friends and my family who are trying to support me (but in NO WAY condone what I did), but I can't bring myself to actually talk to them much. They all live several hours away, so the only real contact would be by phone. There is no one local for me to talk with other than Matt and my therapist. I find myself making excuses - they're busy, they have their own holiday/family stuff going on, I don't want to burden them with my crappy emotions and stress. So instead, it just piles up inside me and I try to portion it out a bit at a time. Saturday was rough for me like that, and then Sunday morning was a bit of a continuation. Little things, like our cat puking around the house, or my toddler headbutting me so hard I have a black eye 3 days later become totally overwhelming and I'm just having a hard time functioning through it on certain days.

But there are bright spots too. We spent time watching a movie together, and napped on the couch. Matt was enjoying a new video game, and I liked watching him play and helping figure out some of the puzzles. 

It seems like every day I realize/remember another piece of the past and what OM really knew about the situation before he kissed me the first time. I had TOLD him Matt had concerns about our friendship about a month before OM kissed me. I was shocked and surprised that Matt had voiced that, felt that I had never even considered OM in that way, and when OM asked me what was up, I filled him in. He laughed and said that was ridiculous, that he certainly didn't think of me that way, and I felt mad that he would laugh at Matt's concern and something that had upset both Matt and I , but relieved and safe at the same time that we were "just friends" and he agreed with me that Matt's fears were unfounded, I guess, for lack of a better term. I CAN'T BELIEVE it never occurred to me to doubt his word or sincerity in that situation.

Every day I feel stupider and stupider. I don't know HOW I could have not recognized OM's motivations/actions as being what they were. Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating. I know the second is not true _as a general characteristic before and outside of the affair_, but I don't want the first to be true either.... it's so humiliating. I don't actually have much relationship experience - I dated a HS friend after graduation for a few months, but had no real sexual experience with him, and had 1 college BF for a couple of years before Matt, and that's it. The college BF was NOT a good relationship in hindsight. There was lots of emotional abuse disguised as teasing, comments like "if I'd known how ugly you were when you were younger I never would have dated you because you're bad for the gene pool". There was always a sense of instability there too - even though we spent every night together for almost 2 years, he never wanted to plan anything long-term or talk about living together because "I could break up with you tomorrow". So I spent that entire relationship feeling like I had to please him/earn his love each day, I guess, in some weird way. Sexually, there was some definite dominance patterns, and I'm not sure how that is imprinted on my overall sexuality, given that he was my first experience.

I just have never felt really confident about myself in any situation, I guess. I'm really good at hiding it, but it's there. And I think those esteem issues are a big part of my pattern of behavior with OM - giving him whatever he wanted, when he wanted. I am 36 years old, many people would say that I am professionally accomplished, attractive, and intelligent. And all I ever really feel is that I don't know how or if I can live up to my "potential", that my professional accomplishments are a smokescreen to hide my overall inexperience/lack of knowledge, and that I skate by on enthusiasm instead of skill. Physically, I waffle on my feelings about appearance... even if I feel like I look good on a certain day or in a certain outfit, often I think it is a trick, I guess, that it hides my inherent flaws, rather than accenting my positive characteristics. Something more for my IC sessions, I guess. But if I have felt this way my whole life, how do you change that pattern? I can change what criteria I use for self-definition - work vs. family for example, but I don't have any clue how to change it so that MY OWN FEELINGS about me are what gives me my identity, rather than an external source. It's really hard.

Matt and I worked more on our divorce papers last night. It's really upsetting to me, but I am trying to not let that show, with relative degrees of success. He genuinely wants to know why I want to be married, what it is that I think that represents, other than tax breaks, etc. I'm having a hard time clearly communicating my feelings to him on the subject. My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R. I know we can D and still have a relationship, if he chooses, those are not mutually exclusive things. But I know I want to be MARRIED to Matt, not just a girlfriend. I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us - especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly. I need a lot more thought/clarification on my desire to maintain that bond before I can really express my true feelings to Matt in a worthwhile manner.


----------



## cpacan

I like reading about your thoughts because I can relate so well too your husbands situation.

I am very curious to see what you end up with regarding the reason for being married question. I have wondered the exact same thing for my wife. Why stay married when you clearly don't value the symbol of it.

Since you don't have friends or family close, I would keep reading and writing to keep reflecting on yourself.


----------



## The Middleman

Mrs_Mathias said:


> My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R. I know we can D and still have a relationship, if he chooses, those are not mutually exclusive things. But I know I want to be MARRIED to Matt, not just a girlfriend. I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us -


Sometimes in life we come across things that just can't be fixed.


----------



## Acabado

I'm glad to hear you seem to having a clearer picture about the past. Yeah, you are just starting to have more self awareness and also realizing the need to read into other's motivations better. What you are finding out is not pretty. We all have ugly parts. And change hurts. Hang tough.
I wish I could help with the present and uncertain future... just keep "doing it" and talk to Matt
And reach out those friends. Really, you need them.

Hang in there


----------



## CH

I don't know HOW I could have not recognized OM's motivations/actions as being what they were. Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating

Mrs. Mat, the 2nd statement is the truth. You were manipulative and calculating.

Stupid and naive is usually when it happens once and you realize you screwed up.

But since you covered it up, went back for more, covered it up more, you were being manipulative and calculating, plain and simple.

Don't cloud it, take it for what it was, own it and move on. No excuses anymore. I don't know is the answer a cheater gives when they still haven't owned 100% of the affair!!!


----------



## TBT

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He genuinely wants to know why I want to be married, what it is that I think that represents, other than tax breaks, etc. I'm having a hard time clearly communicating my feelings to him on the subject. My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R.


Why don't you pose this stuck point on betrayed1's Reconciliation thread here in CWI forum and see if you can get some helpful input from the wayward spouses there? There are a few of them who are overcoming or have overcome a lot of obstacles on their way to a true R.....you may benefit from their shared experiences.


----------



## Wazza

My post here is full of heavy stuff. Sorry about that. I hope you are doing ok, but there are some pretty hard things coming out of your post.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> He saw a movie with friends Friday night, and came home really hurt and angry. I just tried to talk with him, and be there in whatever way he would let me.


That still happens to me on occasion. Movies are full of infidelity, and it hurts. I don't know if Matt will ever stop hurting or just learn to manage it. And that probably is true whether you reconcile or divorce.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating. I know the second is not true, but I don't want the first to be true either.... it's so humiliating.


Maybe a bit of both, along with being just plain old horny. Horny+stupid and naive got you into the affair, horny+manipulative and calculating let you keep it going. That would be my guess.

Sorry, I know you don't want to hear it but if you think about the lies and deception you practiced, how can that not be manipulative and calculating? You knew you were lying. You actively set up meetings with OM for sex and deceived Matt about them.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't actually have much relationship experience - I dated a HS friend after graduation for a few months, but had no real sexual experience with him, and had 1 college BF for a couple of years before Matt, and that's it.


The Skype message quoted by Matt listed five partners. I see three here plus OM. There is one missing.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R. I know we can D and still have a relationship, if he chooses, those are not mutually exclusive things. But I know I want to be MARRIED to Matt, not just a girlfriend. I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us - especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly. I need a lot more thought/clarification on my desire to maintain that bond before I can really express my true feelings to Matt in a worthwhile manner.


Two things. 

One. In the past you didn't value commitment, now you do. So today you want to be married.What about next year, or the year after that? Because you have shown Matt that you are willing to let go of commitment over time. Wanting to be there today isn't enough. There will be another CJ one day. What are you doing to make sure you don't cheat again?

Two. This is really fundamental. You and Matt had a deal. And you tore it up. Without asking him, without even giving him the courtesy of telling him. You just tore it up. 

Now, when my wife did that, I thought of all that I had given to the marriage, and this was how she betrayed me, and to be blunt, I stopped considering what she wanted. She had made her unilateral decision, and I took the right to make mine. She had cheated and lied, so I didn't feel I owed her explanations of or input to my thoughts.

Matt now has that right. HE NOW OWES YOU NOTHING.

If he wants to stay, for whatever reason, that is his right. If he wants to go, again that is his right. I understand a bit at least how much it hurts you since you now want to stay, but it really can't be any other way. You ended the marriage. It is not now a question of whether he wants to stay in your marriage, because the old marriage is dead. It is a question of whether he wants to build a new marriage with you.

Have you really embraced that, while you had this sense of being on fire with your two men, he saw a wife who had become distant? Your experience was passion, his was desertion and deception. It will not be easy for him to open his heart to you again.

I guess the bright side is you recognise the need to redefine what a marriage is. All I can suggest is talk.

And I do think he MAY be open to reconciliation....MAY be....but you can't control it, and you should not expect that what you have done will blow over quickly. IF you reconcile it will take years to recede, and will always be in the background a bit.


----------



## Broken at 20

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been fighting my own depression about the affair, and particularly feelings of loneliness/isolation. I can recognize that most of that is self-inflicted. I have some friends and my family who are trying to support me (but in NO WAY condone what I did), but I can't bring myself to actually talk to them much. They all live several hours away, so the only real contact would be by phone. There is no one local for me to talk with other than Matt and my therapist. I find myself making excuses - they're busy, they have their own holiday/family stuff going on, I don't want to burden them with my crappy emotions and stress. So instead, it just piles up inside me and I try to portion it out a bit at a time. Saturday was rough for me like that, and then Sunday morning was a bit of a continuation. Little things, like our cat puking around the house, or my toddler headbutting me so hard I have a black eye 3 days later become totally overwhelming and I'm just having a hard time functioning through it on certain days.


So, during the affair, you would find every chance to talk with the OM. 
After the affair, you are making up excuses to not talk about the affair by any means necessary. 
What does that say about you? 
Can't take the heat?



> It seems like every day I realize/remember another piece of the past and what OM really knew about the situation before he kissed me the first time. I had TOLD him Matt had concerns about our friendship about a month before OM kissed me. I was shocked and surprised that Matt had voiced that, felt that I had never even considered OM in that way, and when OM asked me what was up, I filled him in. He laughed and said that was ridiculous, that he certainly didn't think of me that way, and I felt mad that he would laugh at Matt's concern and something that had upset both Matt and I , but relieved and safe at the same time that we were "just friends" and he agreed with me that Matt's fears were unfounded, I guess, for lack of a better term. I CAN'T BELIEVE it never occurred to me to doubt his word or sincerity in that situation.


I can't believe that you were discussing marital problems with a student, and at that, a student of the opposite sex.



> Every day I feel stupider and stupider. I don't know HOW I could have not recognized OM's motivations/actions as being what they were. Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating. I know the second is not true _as a general characteristic before and outside of the affair_, but I don't want the first to be true either.... it's so humiliating.


I can answer this. 
The truth:
You want to think of yourself as a good person, loving mother, and great wife. 
But your actions say the exact opposite. You were willing, and able, to: lie, manipulate, hide, betray, and do whatever necessary to carry on your affair. 

The truth is horrible, and you don't want to face it. 
You met a guy, were hot for him, and wanted him, and the fact that you were married wasn't going to stop you. And you don't want to believe it. 

Truth hurts. 
Start facing it. 



> I don't actually have much relationship experience - I dated a HS friend after graduation for a few months, but had no real sexual experience with him, and had 1 college BF for a couple of years before Matt, and that's it. The college BF was NOT a good relationship in hindsight. There was lots of emotional abuse disguised as teasing, comments like "if I'd known how ugly you were when you were younger I never would have dated you because you're bad for the gene pool". There was always a sense of instability there too - even though we spent every night together for almost 2 years, he never wanted to plan anything long-term or talk about living together because "I could break up with you tomorrow". So I spent that entire relationship feeling like I had to please him/earn his love each day, I guess, in some weird way. Sexually, there was some definite dominance patterns, and I'm not sure how that is imprinted on my overall sexuality, given that he was my first experience.


So you dated a complete player...Big surprise there.....
What I find interesting, is the OM was a womanizer. You dated a womanizer in your past. 
So you got burned once. Yet you were dumb enough to get burned twice. 
Why? 
I think the reason is because, you want one. You either actively seek it out, or you have some very deep psychological issues that a therapist needs to sort out with you. 



> He genuinely wants to know why I want to be married, what it is that I think that represents, other than tax breaks, etc.
> I'm having a hard time clearly communicating my feelings to him on the subject. My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R. I know we can D and still have a relationship, if he chooses, those are not mutually exclusive things. But I know I want to be MARRIED to Matt, not just a girlfriend. I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us - especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly. *I need a lot more thought/clarification on my desire to maintain that bond before I can really express my true feelings to Matt in a worthwhile manner*.


A marriage is suppose to be between soulmates. 
You have yet to say your husband is your soulmate. 

Plus, marriage is just a piece of paper. You should be damn grateful if Dr. M even wants to hear your name after what you put him through! 
Besides, who gives a crap what you want? You failed to take his wants into account for how many months? 
You should give him a divorce, and gracefully take whatever he gives you! 

You don't desire marriage. Nor do you deserve it.

If I went out, gambled my entire college savings down the drain, could I afterwards, say I don't like gambling and get my money back? HELL NO!!!
Same works for you. 
You had to be with the OM, carry out the affair, even after being discovered, several times by the way, tp discover what you want. 

You have several deep psychological issues that you need to work on. 

Also, the bolded part, if you are having to sort out your feelings, move out, finish the divorce, and do some soul searching. 
This isn't a freaking act! You should be on your knees, begging and professing your love to your husband. Not trying to come up with some grand act to perform so he can see how much he loves you. You should be showing how much he means to you on a daily basis. No matter how it looks. It shouldn't look like a broadway production. It should look like it came from your heart, raw, pure, and uncencored.


----------



## WyshIknew

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Okay, so here's my thought dump for the day...
> 
> We had a decent weekend together at home. Matt is struggling right now with getting distracted by something enjoyable and then feeling the weight of the affair crash back down on him when the distraction is finished. He saw a movie with friends Friday night, and came home really hurt and angry. I just tried to talk with him, and be there in whatever way he would let me.
> 
> I've been fighting my own depression about the affair, and particularly feelings of loneliness/isolation. I can recognize that most of that is self-inflicted. I have some friends and my family who are trying to support me (but in NO WAY condone what I did), but I can't bring myself to actually talk to them much. They all live several hours away, so the only real contact would be by phone. There is no one local for me to talk with other than Matt and my therapist. I find myself making excuses - they're busy, they have their own holiday/family stuff going on, I don't want to burden them with my crappy emotions and stress. So instead, it just piles up inside me and I try to portion it out a bit at a time. Saturday was rough for me like that, and then Sunday morning was a bit of a continuation. Little things, like our cat puking around the house, or my toddler headbutting me so hard I have a black eye 3 days later become totally overwhelming and I'm just having a hard time functioning through it on certain days.
> 
> But there are bright spots too. We spent time watching a movie together, and napped on the couch. Matt was enjoying a new video game, and I liked watching him play and helping figure out some of the puzzles.
> 
> It seems like every day I realize/remember another piece of the past and what OM really knew about the situation before he kissed me the first time. I had TOLD him Matt had concerns about our friendship about a month before OM kissed me. I was shocked and surprised that Matt had voiced that, felt that I had never even considered OM in that way, and when OM asked me what was up, I filled him in. He laughed and said that was ridiculous, that he certainly didn't think of me that way, and I felt mad that he would laugh at Matt's concern and something that had upset both Matt and I , but relieved and safe at the same time that we were "just friends" and he agreed with me that Matt's fears were unfounded, I guess, for lack of a better term. I CAN'T BELIEVE it never occurred to me to doubt his word or sincerity in that situation.
> 
> Every day I feel stupider and stupider. I don't know HOW I could have not recognized OM's motivations/actions as being what they were. Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating. I know the second is not true _as a general characteristic before and outside of the affair_, but I don't want the first to be true either.... it's so humiliating. I don't actually have much relationship experience - I dated a HS friend after graduation for a few months, but had no real sexual experience with him, and had 1 college BF for a couple of years before Matt, and that's it. The college BF was NOT a good relationship in hindsight. There was lots of emotional abuse disguised as teasing, comments like "if I'd known how ugly you were when you were younger I never would have dated you because you're bad for the gene pool". There was always a sense of instability there too - even though we spent every night together for almost 2 years, he never wanted to plan anything long-term or talk about living together because "I could break up with you tomorrow". So I spent that entire relationship feeling like I had to please him/earn his love each day, I guess, in some weird way. Sexually, there was some definite dominance patterns, and I'm not sure how that is imprinted on my overall sexuality, given that he was my first experience.
> 
> I just have never felt really confident about myself in any situation, I guess. I'm really good at hiding it, but it's there. And I think those esteem issues are a big part of my pattern of behavior with OM - giving him whatever he wanted, when he wanted. I am 36 years old, many people would say that I am professionally accomplished, attractive, and intelligent. And all I ever really feel is that I don't know how or if I can live up to my "potential", that my professional accomplishments are a smokescreen to hide my overall inexperience/lack of knowledge, and that I skate by on enthusiasm instead of skill. Physically, I waffle on my feelings about appearance... even if I feel like I look good on a certain day or in a certain outfit, often I think it is a trick, I guess, that it hides my inherent flaws, rather than accenting my positive characteristics. Something more for my IC sessions, I guess. But if I have felt this way my whole life, how do you change that pattern? I can change what criteria I use for self-definition - work vs. family for example, but I don't have any clue how to change it so that MY OWN FEELINGS about me are what gives me my identity, rather than an external source. It's really hard.
> 
> Matt and I worked more on our divorce papers last night. It's really upsetting to me, but I am trying to not let that show, with relative degrees of success. He genuinely wants to know why I want to be married, what it is that I think that represents, other than tax breaks, etc. I'm having a hard time clearly communicating my feelings to him on the subject. My past actions have show to Matt that I did not value that commitment, but how does one explain that I DO value it now? Surely this is something that every WS faces, if they desire R. I know we can D and still have a relationship, if he chooses, those are not mutually exclusive things. But I know I want to be MARRIED to Matt, not just a girlfriend. I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us Err don't you mean 'I' not 'we', Matt knew what a marriage meant to him!- especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly. I need a lot more thought/clarification on my desire to maintain that bond before I can really express my true feelings to Matt in a worthwhile manner.


I don't think any body can or should tell you how to explain that you do value the marriage now. This is something you need to work out for yourself. This needs to come from your heart, not from the advice of others. I personally think that using the advice of others to sway Matt's opinion smacks of more manipulation.

Apart from the issue of your young son what do you think are the irrefutable reasons why Matt should reconcile with you?

Why should he reconcile with you instead of eventually starting afresh with someone who hasn't broken his heart?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

WyshIknew said:


> I don't think any body can or should tell you how to explain that you do value the marriage now. This is something you need to work out for yourself. This needs to come from your heart, not from the advice of others. I personally think that using the advice of others to sway Matt's opinion smacks of more manipulation.
> 
> Apart from the issue of your young son what do you think are the irrefutable reasons why Matt should reconcile with you?
> 
> Why should he reconcile with you instead of eventually starting afresh with someone who hasn't broken his heart?


That is more of a hypothetical question. I wasn't really looking for answers from the board, just posting what I am thinking about and asking myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken at 20

Mrs_Mathias said:


> That is more of a hypothetical question. I wasn't really looking for answers from the board, just posting what I am thinking about and asking myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you able to answer the question that were posted to you?


----------



## TDSC60

Religion and legalities aside.

Marriage is a promise made by two people, to each other, to be faithful, supportive, honest, and loving. That is what marriage is in the simplest terms.

If both spouses cannot do this, then divorce.

Your statement that " I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us - especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly" is a little disturbing.

If you have not accepted, or have to define, that that one of the basic rules in marriage is that you do not engage in sex with another man, I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Tony55

Broken at 20 said:


> A marriage is suppose to be between soulmates. You have yet to say your husband is your soulmate.
> Plus, marriage is just a piece of paper. You should be damn grateful if Dr. M even wants to hear your name after what you put him through! *Besides, who gives a crap what you want*? You failed to take his wants into account for how many months? You should give him a divorce, and gracefully take whatever he gives you!
> You don't desire marriage. Nor do you deserve it.


*I give a crap.*

I'd say that was a bit harsh.

T


----------



## Wazza

Tony55 said:


> *I give a crap.*
> 
> I'd say that was a bit harsh.
> 
> T


I give a crap too.

MrsM, the sun will still rise tomorrow. Your toddler will still love his mom. 

I while ago I said something along the lines of "I don't need to beat you up, because if you have no conscience it's a waste of time, and if you have a conscience you are going to end up beating yourself up better than I ever could."

Well, for what it's worth I think you have a conscience, and I think you are starting to realise what you have done. 

Deal with the issues, face them, do what you can, but don't let the guilt ruin your life. Be strong for your son.


----------



## Wazza

Broken at 20 said:


> I can't believe that you were discussing marital problems with a student, and at that, a student of the opposite sex.


Broken, do you see the humour in you writing this to MrsM?

Not wanting to give you a hard time here, but there is enough pain in this situation already, and enough facts there to cause further pain for all concerned. Just be a little bit gentle, ok?

By the way, you haven't updated your thread for a while....you should let us know how things are over there.


----------



## Broken at 20

Wazza said:


> Broken, do you see the humour in you writing this to MrsM?
> 
> Not wanting to give you a hard time here, but there is enough pain in this situation already, and enough facts there to cause further pain for all concerned. Just be a little bit gentle, ok?


Yes...I now do see the extreme irony in that...:rofl:

Also, I am confrontational in my post. Same in real life. 
I tell it how I see it. 
I hope that by bringing out the ugly parts in her life and affair, she can see them for what they trully are, and make changes accordingly. Thereby, becoming a better person. So far, she chooses avoidance over confronting ALL of her problems and obstacles.


----------



## WyshIknew

Mrs_Mathias said:


> That is more of a hypothetical question. I wasn't really looking for answers from the board, just posting what I am thinking about and asking myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did wonder if it was a rhetorical question on your part.

However, irrespective of that those sort of questions are going to be need to be asked if there is any hope for reconciliation.

Unfortunately for you, as it stands Matt seems to be heading for divorce. But you do obviously have some time to turn this around.


----------



## happyman64

Ahhhh Mrs. M,

The good part is that you are thinking. It is so much harder to do than being deceitful.

So keep thinking.



> I just have never felt really confident about myself in any situation, I guess. I'm really good at hiding it, but it's there. And I think those esteem issues are a big part of my pattern of behavior with OM - giving him whatever he wanted, when he wanted. I am 36 years old, many people would say that I am professionally accomplished, attractive, and intelligent. And all I ever really feel is that I don't know how or if I can live up to my "potential", that my professional accomplishments are a smokescreen to hide my overall inexperience/lack of knowledge, and that I skate by on enthusiasm instead of skill. Physically, I waffle on my feelings about appearance... even if I feel like I look good on a certain day or in a certain outfit, often I think it is a trick, I guess, that it hides my inherent flaws, rather than accenting my positive characteristics. Something more for my IC sessions, I guess. But if I have felt this way my whole life, how do you change that pattern? I can change what criteria I use for self-definition - work vs. family for example, but I don't have any clue how to change it so that MY OWN FEELINGS about me are what gives me my identity, rather than an external source. It's really hard.


And you are thinking about a lot.

But you before you answer Matt's question you need to figure out who are? Or maybe who you were?

And you need to figure that out before you can be a wife that wants her marriage to continue after damaging it so badly.

But if you are sure you are a good person then continue to be honest. Continue to show Matt that you are working on you to fix what what is broken within you. Continue to be a good mother.

And no matter whether your D or R you need to keep doing all of the above because that is what a good person would do.

Keep working on you!

HM64


----------



## NewM

Why did you do it?What was missing in marriage,if you plan on R you need to fix that so it doesn't happen again.

I haven't red everything from your 2 threads so sorry if this was discussed already.What I red was that your husband preferred more romantic sex while with OM you were fulfilling OM's sexual fantasies and had overall crazier sex with him being more dominant.


----------



## Remains

Broken at 20 said:


> Also, I am confrontational in my post. Same in real life.
> I tell it how I see it.
> I hope that by bringing out the ugly parts in her life and affair, she can see them for what they trully are, and make changes accordingly. Thereby, becoming a better person. So far, she chooses avoidance over confronting ALL of her problems and obstacles.


The thing is, the more confrontational you are, the more aggressive, the louder you shout... the less people listen. Confrontation pushes people away. And it gives you a reputation, a hot temper, always angry about something, and so people switch off to you. Confrontation doesn't make people listen! Or help people. Not when its not used correctly. 

Don't get me wrong, I say it how it is, I don't shy away from crap, but you have got to be kind with your harsh words. You have to deliver them with some delicacy and sensitivity otherwise you may as well not say them at all.

Have you ever heard the story about the north wind and the sun? The aggressive north wind has a bet with the sun that he can remove the man's coat easily with his strength and that the sun could never remove the coat due to a lack of strength. The north wind blows harder and harder but the man holds tighter on to his coat. The north wind gives up and let's the sun take his turn. The sun sits back, feet up, and waits. Shining. The man gets hot and takes his coat off. 

The confrontational stance does not have the desired effect. The recipient just holds on tighter and tries harder to get to calmer and more pleasant surroundings. And rightly so.


----------



## Summer4744

Mrs. Mathias. Interesting take on what you are going through right now. But consider this.

While you were having the A you did not value your marriage because you perceived something better was out there for you. Whether this was better sex, a more exciting life, etc the point is that the opportunity was there so you took it. This is why it was so easy to lie to yourself and risk everything. If you had a nice job at Microsoft and had the opportunity to work for Apple, would most people not jump at the chance even though Microsoft is a perfectly good job? 

Now that you have been brought back down to reality you value the marriage more because you have realized that your options weren't all that good to begin with. If it turned out that you were not cut out to work at Apple after all, would you not be grateful you had a job at Microsoft?

Your problem in trying to save the marriage is that once again you are just thinking about yourself and not the man you supposedly care about so much. Of course you want to keep the marriage, you stand to risk a lot by getting divorced and then trying to R after the fact.

But what does the Dr. gain from staying married? What's in it for him? He would actually be taking a huge risk by staying married, a risk he has already taken and been burned from before. By taking a selfish approach, yet again, you are basically confirming you are just looking out for yourself.

Your only chance would be to grant your husband the divorce on his terms and then try to rebuild from scratch. If you try to have everything your way you will be left with nothing.


----------



## Kasler

Summer4744 said:


> Mrs. Mathias. Interesting take on what you are going through right now. But consider this.
> 
> While you were having the A you did not value your marriage because you perceived something better was out there for you. Whether this was better sex, a more exciting life, etc the point is that the opportunity was there so you took it. This is why it was so easy to lie to yourself and risk everything. If you had a nice job at Microsoft and had the opportunity to work for Apple, would most people not jump at the chance even though Microsoft is a perfectly good job?
> 
> Now that you have been brought back down to reality you value the marriage more because you have realized that your options weren't all that good to begin with. If it turned out that you were not cut out to work at Apple after all, would you not be grateful you had a job at Microsoft?
> 
> Your problem in trying to save the marriage is that once again you are just thinking about yourself and not the man you supposedly care about so much. Of course you want to keep the marriage, you stand to risk a lot by getting divorced and then trying to R after the fact.
> 
> But what does the Dr. gain from staying married? What's in it for him? He would actually be taking a huge risk by staying married, a risk he has already taken and been burned from before. By taking a selfish approach, yet again, you are basically confirming you are just looking out for yourself.
> 
> Your only chance would be to grant your husband the divorce on his terms and then try to rebuild from scratch. If you try to have everything your way you will be left with nothing.


This is a good post

Dr mat has stated many times he sees no reason not to divorce. 

He gave her a chance, she burned it away, then another, and another, and another(And from Dr matt liking the post where I insist upon 4 Ddays, I'll make the assumption he agrees with that number give or take 1)

Yet THIS time is supposed to be completely different and put his fears at ease? 

Now how bad does that statement sound after all the background history?

It'd most likely be impossible for him to ever be secure in the current form of this relationship.


----------



## lionsguy22

I actually think a little faith in god would go a long way for both parties in this situation.


----------



## Wazza

Summer4744 said:


> Mrs. Mathias. Interesting take on what you are going through right now. But consider this.
> 
> While you were having the A you did not value your marriage because you perceived something better was out there for you. Whether this was better sex, a more exciting life, etc the point is that the opportunity was there so you took it. This is why it was so easy to lie to yourself and risk everything. If you had a nice job at Microsoft and had the opportunity to work for Apple, would most people not jump at the chance even though Microsoft is a perfectly good job?
> 
> Now that you have been brought back down to reality you value the marriage more because you have realized that your options weren't all that good to begin with. If it turned out that you were not cut out to work at Apple after all, would you not be grateful you had a job at Microsoft?
> 
> Your problem in trying to save the marriage is that once again you are just thinking about yourself and not the man you supposedly care about so much. Of course you want to keep the marriage, you stand to risk a lot by getting divorced and then trying to R after the fact.
> 
> But what does the Dr. gain from staying married? What's in it for him? He would actually be taking a huge risk by staying married, a risk he has already taken and been burned from before. By taking a selfish approach, yet again, you are basically confirming you are just looking out for yourself.
> 
> Your only chance would be to grant your husband the divorce on his terms and then try to rebuild from scratch. If you try to have everything your way you will be left with nothing.


Actually, I think the premise of this post is factually wrong.

As I read it, MrsM told OM that she wanted BOTH of them. Matt has acknowledged that she was a cake eater. Both have admitted there was no future with OM.

Not sure exactly what she was trying to do besides eat cake and get laid, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that she wanted to be done with Matt. She was just selfish in wanting other things as well. Not that this is less of a crime, but it does have bearing on her level of commitment to the relationship with Matt.


----------



## Shaggy

Just so you recognize it.

The moment you said to the OM, gee isn't it funny how my husband thinks I've got a think for you he he. Is when you truly began betraying Matt. You chose to belittle his concerns about the OM by telling the OM about them. That was both a betrayal of Matt's trust because that was a very personal conversation, but it was clearly you saying to the OM, see even Matt sees it. Now what you are you going to do about taking me up on it?


----------



## Wazza

Shaggy said:


> Just so you recognize it.
> 
> The moment you said to the OM, gee isn't it funny how my husband thinks I've got a think for you he he. Is when you truly began betraying Matt. You chose to belittle his concerns about the OM by telling the OM about them. That was both a betrayal of Matt's trust because that was a very personal conversation, but it was clearly you saying to the OM, see even Matt sees it. Now what you are you going to do about taking me up on it?


Not only that, but this would also been the start of where OM had all the facts and Matt didn't.


----------



## jim123

Not sure what you can say now. You blew your chance. You made a choice, now Matt must make his.

You still have not find out why yet so it is impossible to move forward. My guess Matt sees that. He speaks of how this is much like the first time you told him all this after DD1

A problem you will have is you have made Matt independent. He knows he can take care of his son. He knows he can be without you because he has for about a year now. 

You have embarrassed Matt by picking someone like CJ as your second soulmate. It is ammusing that you have not realize how much you embarrassed yourself. 

You are doing all the right things but do not appear to be having any effect. One of the biggest problems in an affair is how much you grow apart both before and during the affair. You spend more time talking with CJ than with Matt. You more than likely can call OM and have a conversation but you can't with your husband. Niether of you are the same person since the last time you cared to talk to Matt.

CJ does not seem to be much like husband material or father material yet he was a soulmate. What does that say about your soul as it CJ would have not included your son in any meaningfull way. 

I think CJ was an exit affair for you, not only from being a wife but having family responsibilities. With him your job and career would have been the most important. After CJ left you changed you mind and came back not only to Matt but your son as well.

You are doing the right things but my guess something is missing in your actions. You can tell when someone really feels what they are doing.


----------



## Shaggy

Wazza said:


> Not only that, but this would also been the start of where OM had all the facts and Matt didn't.


Yes. It shows that she shifted her loyalty to the OM.


----------



## jim123

They both knew they had feeling for each other when Matt said that. They just had not admitted (maybe) to each other.

Another case of lieing before she thinks.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> One of the biggest problems in an affair is how much you grow apart both before and during the affair. *You spend more time talking with CJ than with Matt. You more than likely can call OM and have a conversation but you can't with your husband. * Niether of you are the same person since the last time you cared to talk to Matt.


This deserves emphasis. 

It was one of the biggest things I lost over my wife's affair, and one of the hardest to get back.


----------



## warlock07

Mrs_Mathias said:


> but I don't want the first to be true either.... it's so humiliating. I don't actually have much relationship experience -* I dated a HS friend after graduation for a few months, but had no real sexual experience with him, and had 1 college BF for a couple of years before Matt, and that's it. The college BF was NOT a good relationship in hindsight*.



Um...What about Matt mentioning that you dated a married man before him ?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

warlock07 said:


> Um...What about Matt mentioning that you dated a married man before him ?


LOL! Oh, she seems to have forgotten to incorporate that into her resume. An _honest_ oversight, I'm sure.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Um...What about Matt mentioning that you dated a married man before him ?


I went back and found the quoted Skype message. Post 357 in Matt's thread



> [6/10/12 12:12:16 AM]: 1. *Don’t read this drunk.
> 
> 2. *I am not asking anything of you, you don’t need to feel obligated to respond. *I’m just trying to work some things out in my head, and you are the primary person I share my thoughts with, so here goes...
> 
> I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment this afternoon. And I am absolutely NOT interested in sacrificing a lifetime friendship for a short-term more intense relationship, despite the joy we may find in that. *The thought that we may not be speaking in a year seriously flips my ****. *If you think that is really a possibility, then that's it, we chalk this up to a week of temporary insanity and go on as we did before.
> 
> I never dreamed I'd find myself in a situation like this. *I don't know how to navigate it, or even to begin to figure out which direction I want it to go. *I'm not trying to freak you out, or turn this into something more than you had intended... if you even know what that is. *But I've always been honest with you, and I want that to continue. *What we've shared is not something that I have done with many people. **Okay, with 5 people, including you. *Two of those were boyfriends/future husband, and two were me trying to figure out how everyone around me seemed to sleep around so easily with no emotional strings attached. And then there's you.* *I'll be honest, I don't do no strings attached very well, and for me, what I've shared with you is more than just physical.
> 
> I don't want to scare you or make you think I'm all crazy Fatal Attraction or something.  *If this is primarily a physical thing with you, that's ok with me... I'm not trying to make you feel or think anything specific about this. *But I really do mean it, when i say I love you. *There are so many things I'd like to have, do, and share with you, but most of those I can't ever see happening. *Because I really do love Matt, too. *I can't even begin to describe how it feels to share this level of emotion for both of you. *Selfishly, if I could have my way and there were no complexities to life, I'd sleep every night for the remainder of my days in the middle of a CJ/Matt sandwich. But I'm sure that is a fairly repellant concept to both of you, and I know that's not the realities of life and relationships.
> 
> I want you to be so happy and fulfilled in life. *I never want you to feel like you are a second choice, or not as important. *I see how much that hurts you when Chelsea treats you that way, even if you deny it. *I want to love you, and show you how amazing I think you are in any way available to me forever. But I will always have to balance that with my love for Matt and Asher. *So I need you to really think, before anything else is shared between us, about how you feel with sharing me. *It's too much for me to ask of you, and I know that. *Someday you will find someone who is free to make you the center of her world, and give you everything that I can't. *But, if I'm being honest, you are a vital piece in my life, and I can't imagine it without you, in some way.
> 
> So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you. *Be honest with yourself about what this is, and what my limitations are. *I never want to hurt you, I never want this to be something negative for us. I would rather spend the rest of my life wondering what if, rather than destroying a lasting friendship. *Please help me figure out if and/or how to step back from this before any damage is done.


Sorry MrsM, I cannot reconcile the bit I have highlighted with your statement of three others. Can you please explain how they correlate?


----------



## WyshIknew

lionsguy22 said:


> I actually think a little faith in god would go a long way for both parties in this situation.


Why?

Statistics show that the religious are more likely to stray and divorce than atheists.


----------



## warlock07

Wazza said:


> I went back and found the quoted Skype message. Post 357 in Matt's thread
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry MrsM, I cannot reconcile the bit I have highlighted with your statement of three others. Can you please explain how they correlate?


Yep, I remember this post too. Maybe she was talking about long term relationships ? She knew Matt reads these posts. SO why did she say that ?


----------



## snap

WyshIknew said:


> Statistics show that the religious are more likely to stray and divorce than atheists.


I seriously doubt that.


----------



## dogman

This crap makes me want to throw up and then help Matt move her sh!t to the curb. Ugggggghhhhhhh!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[6/10/12 12:12:16 AM]: 1. *Don’t read this drunk.

2. *I am not asking anything of you, you don’t need to feel obligated to respond. *I’m just trying to work some things out in my head, and you are the primary person I share my thoughts with, so here goes...

I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment this afternoon. And I am absolutely NOT interested in sacrificing a lifetime friendship for a short-term more intense relationship, despite the joy we may find in that. *The thought that we may not be speaking in a year seriously flips my ****. *If you think that is really a possibility, then that's it, we chalk this up to a week of temporary insanity and go on as we did before.

I never dreamed I'd find myself in a situation like this. *I don't know how to navigate it, or even to begin to figure out which direction I want it to go. *I'm not trying to freak you out, or turn this into something more than you had intended... if you even know what that is. *But I've always been honest with you, and I want that to continue. *What we've shared is not something that I have done with many people. *Okay, with 5 people, including you. *Two of those were boyfriends/future husband, and two were me trying to figure out how everyone around me seemed to sleep around so easily with no emotional strings attached. And then there's you. *I'll be honest, I don't do no strings attached very well, and for me, what I've shared with you is more than just physical.

I don't want to scare you or make you think I'm all crazy Fatal Attraction or something.  *If this is primarily a physical thing with you, that's ok with me... I'm not trying to make you feel or think anything specific about this. *But I really do mean it, when i say I love you. *There are so many things I'd like to have, do, and share with you, but most of those I can't ever see happening. *Because I really do love Matt, too. *I can't even begin to describe how it feels to share this level of emotion for both of you. *Selfishly, if I could have my way and there were no complexities to life, I'd sleep every night for the remainder of my days in the middle of a CJ/Matt sandwich. But I'm sure that is a fairly repellant concept to both of you, and I know that's not the realities of life and relationships. 

I want you to be so happy and fulfilled in life. *I never want you to feel like you are a second choice, or not as important. *I see how much that hurts you when Chelsea treats you that way, even if you deny it. *I want to love you, and show you how amazing I think you are in any way available to me forever. But I will always have to balance that with my love for Matt and Asher. *So I need you to really think, before anything else is shared between us, about how you feel with sharing me. *It's too much for me to ask of you, and I know that. *Someday you will find someone who is free to make you the center of her world, and give you everything that I can't. *But, if I'm being honest, you are a vital piece in my life, and I can't imagine it without you, in some way.

So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you. *Be honest with yourself about what this is, and what my limitations are. *I never want to hurt you, I never want this to be something negative for us. I would rather spend the rest of my life wondering what if, rather than destroying a lasting friendship. *Please help me figure out if and/or how to step back from this before any damage is done.


----------



## WyshIknew

WyshIknew said:


> Why?
> 
> Statistics show that the religious are more likely to stray and divorce than atheists.





snap said:


> I seriously doubt that.


Just one of many dude.

So you can doubt it as much as you like but it's there.

Bear in mind that this was an evangelical survey and research group.
Not arguing that one is better than the other. People must come to their own beliefs in a higher power/s existence but believing that being religious will affair proof a marriage is nothing but wishful thinking.
I think being a person of faith may help you to deal with the aftermath of an affair with the help of your church though.

The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians - exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting.

11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce


----------



## NewM

Mrs_Mathias said:


> If this is primarily a physical thing with you, that's ok with me...
> 
> *I never want you to feel like you are a second choice, or not as important. *
> 
> So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you. **I never want to hurt you, I never want this to be something negative for us. I would rather spend the rest of my life wondering what if, rather than destroying a lasting friendship.


How was OM some bad guy who used you when you told him to be selfish and use you as he pleases while also telling him even if he only uses you for sex he will not be second choice?

I think Matt should use your own advice,be selfish and use you as he pleases because he probably never got to do it while being unselfish,caring husband who took his wife's needs into consideration,got a wife who tells to random kid to be selfish and use her as he pleases.Not to mention you brought OM home while Matt was trying to make romantic dinner and OM purposefully ruined it(you also kissed OM before you 2 entered house).


----------



## snap

WyshIknew said:


> Just one of many dude.
> 
> So you can doubt it as much as you like but it's there.
> 
> Bear in mind that this was an evangelical survey and research group.
> Not arguing that one is better than the other. People must come to their own beliefs in a higher power/s existence but believing that being religious will affair proof a marriage is nothing but wishful thinking.
> I think being a person of faith may help you to deal with the aftermath of an affair with the help of your church though.


You probably like having this argument once in a while, but here you're being condescending for no reason. I'm an atheist and been one all my life.

I seriously doubt that beliefs really have anything to do with desire for screwing around. Like, at all.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> My post here is full of heavy stuff. Sorry about that. I hope you are doing ok, but there are some pretty hard things coming out of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> That still happens to me on occasion. Movies are full of infidelity, and it hurts. I don't know if Matt will ever stop hurting or just learn to manage it. And that probably is true whether you reconcile or divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a bit of both, along with being just plain old horny. Horny+stupid and naive got you into the affair, horny+manipulative and calculating let you keep it going. That would be my guess.
> 
> Sorry, I know you don't want to hear it but if you think about the lies and deception you practiced, how can that not be manipulative and calculating? You knew you were lying. You actively set up meetings with OM for sex and deceived Matt about them.
> 
> Yes, that is why I edited my original post to clarify my ideas about this.
> 
> The Skype message quoted by Matt listed five partners. I see three here plus OM. There is one missing.
> 
> No, this post is about relationships - substantial interactions between people. As I have detailed before in this thread, I have had 5 sexual partners. College BF, Matt, a ONS, a short sexual relationship with a man I believed to be separated, and OM. I didn't include the 2 sexual relationships because I knew they were for sex only, and never had to consider how they affected me emotionally or what the motivations of the men involved were.
> 
> Two things.
> 
> One. In the past you didn't value commitment, now you do. So today you want to be married.What about next year, or the year after that? Because you have shown Matt that you are willing to let go of commitment over time. Wanting to be there today isn't enough. There will be another CJ one day. What are you doing to make sure you don't cheat again?
> 
> I am much more aware of how I let the disconnect between Matt and I develop, and how that led to an emotional vulnerability the OM could exploit and convince me was romantic love between us. I am not allowing anyone else in my world to share my emotions, to know more about me and my thoughts, fears, struggles than Matt at this point. If I had known more about the danger of that in the first place, I honestly think this never would have happened. My interactions with OM did not start with sex. It was months of communication, of feeling like he was 'there for me", and a bunch of other ridiculous bullshyte that I know Matt would have easily provided if I had allowed him the opportunity. So I feel very equipped to make sure I never follow that pattern again.I don't think i have a general problem with "commitment" per se - in like a fear of being with one person or tied down or whatever - but I did put myself in a position to let someone else become more essential to my daily existence than my husband. And that OM made me feel I provided the same essential connection to him in return. THAT is the root of this problem, in my estimation. Maintaining strict boundaries with outsiders, keeping open, honest communication with Matt, and staying engaged with him as a person and friend will be what is needed to prevent me from cheating again in the future. I am capable of all those things.
> 
> Two. This is really fundamental. You and Matt had a deal. And you tore it up. Without asking him, without even giving him the courtesy of telling him. You just tore it up.
> 
> Now, when my wife did that, I thought of all that I had given to the marriage, and this was how she betrayed me, and to be blunt, I stopped considering what she wanted. She had made her unilateral decision, and I took the right to make mine. She had cheated and lied, so I didn't feel I owed her explanations of or input to my thoughts.
> 
> Matt now has that right. HE NOW OWES YOU NOTHING.
> 
> I NEVER SAID HE DID. I have NEVER communicated that Matt needs to consider my wants in this situation at ALL. I have CONSISTENTLY communicated that I am being supportive of HIS choices in every way - assisting with divorce paperwork, moving out of the house when he asked. BUT in this circumstance, he is asking me a question about my viewpoint, about my thoughts and ideas regarding our marriage. So I have a RIGHT and an OBLIGATION to attempt to answer his question honestly and thoroughly.
> 
> If he wants to stay, for whatever reason, that is his right. If he wants to go, again that is his right. I understand a bit at least how much it hurts you since you now want to stay, but it really can't be any other way. You ended the marriage. It is not now a question of whether he wants to stay in your marriage, because the old marriage is dead. It is a question of whether he wants to build a new marriage with you.
> 
> Have you really embraced that, while you had this sense of being on fire with your two men, he saw a wife who had become distant? Your experience was passion, his was desertion and deception. It will not be easy for him to open his heart to you again.
> 
> I guess the bright side is you recognise the need to redefine what a marriage is. All I can suggest is talk.
> 
> And I do think he MAY be open to reconciliation....MAY be....but you can't control it, and you should not expect that what you have done will blow over quickly. IF you reconcile it will take years to recede, and will always be in the background a bit.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Broken at 20 said:


> So, during the affair, you would find every chance to talk with the OM.
> After the affair, you are making up excuses to not talk about the affair by any means necessary.
> What does that say about you?
> Can't take the heat?
> 
> It has nothing to do with taking the heat. I have spoken frankly and openly with everyone who asks me about the situation, including family, friends, and colleagues. I have told them I had an affair, I have told them that I hurt Matt terribly. I have not made excuses or tried to insinuate that Matt somehow was partially to blame. HOWEVER I have not reached out to people for support for my own PERSONAL pain because it feels like I cannot ask that of anyone, since I inflicted it upon myself.
> 
> I can't believe that you were discussing marital problems with a student, and at that, a student of the opposite sex.
> 
> 
> I can answer this.
> The truth:
> You want to think of yourself as a good person, loving mother, and great wife.
> But your actions say the exact opposite. You were willing, and able, to: lie, manipulate, hide, betray, and do whatever necessary to carry on your affair.
> 
> The truth is horrible, and you don't want to face it.
> You met a guy, were hot for him, and wanted him, and the fact that you were married wasn't going to stop you. And you don't want to believe it.
> 
> Truth hurts.
> Start facing it.
> 
> My past actions have shown all those things, yes. I am facing them as best I can, one day at a time, and attempting to show consistent change in making better choices. The truth is horrible, but it doesn't have to be my future as well as my past.
> 
> 
> So you dated a complete player...Big surprise there.....
> What I find interesting, is the OM was a womanizer. You dated a womanizer in your past.
> So you got burned once. Yet you were dumb enough to get burned twice.
> Why?
> I think the reason is because, you want one. You either actively seek it out, or you have some very deep psychological issues that a therapist needs to sort out with you.
> 
> Calling my previous BF a player is not accurate, IMO. He was a manipulative jerk, and doesn't treat people well, but that's a different definition in my book.
> 
> A marriage is suppose to be between soulmates.
> You have yet to say your husband is your soulmate.
> 
> Actually, I have. In my very first thread I talked about how we met and the connection I felt with him. But I don't think I agree with you anymore about a marriage being between soulmates. I would have when I was younger and more romantic. I think a marriage can exist between any two people who have each other's best interests in their heart and maintain that connection throughout life. Nothing mysical or magical is NECESSARY. Is it nice to feel like you are married to someone the universe fated for you? Of course! But that sense of fate/connection is NOT going to sustain a relationship if two people don't recognize the maintenance necessary to keep it going. I have ALWAYS felt that connection with Matt, and I think it was one of the things that made me complacent in our relationship and allowed it to stagnate. I didn't recognize the WORK necessary to keep that going.
> 
> Plus, marriage is just a piece of paper. You should be damn grateful if Dr. M even wants to hear your name after what you put him through!
> Besides, who gives a crap what you want? You failed to take his wants into account for how many months?
> You should give him a divorce, and gracefully take whatever he gives you!
> 
> See my previous reply to Wazza.
> 
> You don't desire marriage. Nor do you deserve it.
> 
> If I went out, gambled my entire college savings down the drain, could I afterwards, say I don't like gambling and get my money back? HELL NO!!!
> Same works for you.
> You had to be with the OM, carry out the affair, even after being discovered, several times by the way, tp discover what you want.
> 
> You have several deep psychological issues that you need to work on.
> 
> Also, the bolded part, if you are having to sort out your feelings, move out, finish the divorce, and do some soul searching.
> 
> I have not said that I need to "sort out my feelings". What I DO need to do is find a clear way to articulate all the different feelings, thoughts, and philosophies that are part of something as complex and whole as a marriage.
> 
> This isn't a freaking act! You should be on your knees, begging and professing your love to your husband. Not trying to come up with some grand act to perform so he can see how much he loves you. You should be showing how much he means to you on a daily basis. No matter how it looks. It shouldn't look like a broadway production. It should look like it came from your heart, raw, pure, and uncencored.
> 
> Perhaps you should consider pursuing the stage. You certainly seem to have your own flair for the dramatic and provocative.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

TDSC60 said:


> Religion and legalities aside.
> 
> Marriage is a promise made by two people, to each other, to be faithful, supportive, honest, and loving. That is what marriage is in the simplest terms.
> 
> If both spouses cannot do this, then divorce.
> 
> Your statement that " I know we need to redefine what a marriage means to us - especially since we are not religious, so that definition is not applicable, particularly" is a little disturbing.
> 
> *If you have not accepted, or have to define, that that one of the basic rules in marriage is that you do not engage in sex with another man, I don't know what to tell you.*


This is not even on the table for debate. When I speak of redefining our marriage, I speak of the new foundation that we will need to build a future relationship on. I have eradicated completely what we had through my actions. IMO, the ONLY way to go forward is to look at what we want and need as adults at this stage in our lives, and that is very different that what we needed at 21 and 22 years old. THAT is what I am examining. What Matt and I can offer each other in a relationship NOW. What we want and need in a relationship in the FUTURE. How we want to identify and define those ideas is what I am considering.


----------



## WyshIknew

snap said:


> You probably like having this argument once in a while, but here you're being condescending for no reason. I'm an atheist and been one all my life.
> 
> I seriously doubt that beliefs really have anything to do with desire for screwing around. Like, at all.


Not going to carry on this discussion. I merely replied to some body elses post here. I think you are being too sensitive how on earth was I being condescending?

This is Mrs Mathias's thread, if you want to continue telling me off do so via pm or on the religion section.

I was merely pointing out that somebody saying that a belief in a higher power would have helped them is bullfeathers and you agreed in your last paragraph so what's your problem?


----------



## snap

No, your point was religious people are more likely to cheat, which I find unsubstantiated.


----------



## bfree

_Mrs Mathias wrote:

Calling my previous BF a player is not accurate, IMO. He was a manipulative jerk, and doesn't treat people well, but that's a different definition in my book. 

Actually, I have. In my very first thread I talked about how we met and the connection I felt with him. But I don't think I agree with you anymore about a marriage being between soulmates. I would have when I was younger and more romantic. I think a marriage can exist between any two people who have each other's best interests in their heart and maintain that connection throughout life. Nothing mysical or magical is NECESSARY. Is it nice to feel like you are married to someone the universe fated for you? Of course! But that sense of fate/connection is NOT going to sustain a relationship if two people don't recognize the maintenance necessary to keep it going. I have ALWAYS felt that connection with Matt, and I think it was one of the things that made me complacent in our relationship and allowed it to stagnate. I didn't recognize the WORK necessary to keep that going._

These two statements you made give me more hope for you than anything else you have written.

For the first time I see you are talking about your AP in a way more consistant with someone who has empathy for an injured husband. I only hope your words reflect the feelings in your heart and mind.

And you are correct. There is no such thing as soulmates. Being married requires work, work, and more work. Soulmates wouldn't need to work at mariage, it would come naturally. Marriage, like love, is a choice. You choose to commit and you choose to stay committed. This is a very mature and solid way of looking at marriage.

I commend you for this. Keep going. You're on the right track.


----------



## WyshIknew

bfree said:


> _Mrs Mathias wrote:
> 
> Calling my previous BF a player is not accurate, IMO. He was a manipulative jerk, and doesn't treat people well, but that's a different definition in my book.
> 
> Actually, I have. In my very first thread I talked about how we met and the connection I felt with him. But I don't think I agree with you anymore about a marriage being between soulmates. I would have when I was younger and more romantic. I think a marriage can exist between any two people who have each other's best interests in their heart and maintain that connection throughout life. Nothing mysical or magical is NECESSARY. Is it nice to feel like you are married to someone the universe fated for you? Of course! But that sense of fate/connection is NOT going to sustain a relationship if two people don't recognize the maintenance necessary to keep it going. I have ALWAYS felt that connection with Matt, and I think it was one of the things that made me complacent in our relationship and allowed it to stagnate. I didn't recognize the WORK necessary to keep that going._
> 
> These two statements you made give me more hope for you than anything else you have written.
> 
> For the first time I see you are talking about your AP in a way more consistant with someone who has empathy for an injured husband. I only hope your words reflect the feelings in your heart and mind.
> 
> And you are correct. There is no such thing as soulmates. Being married requires work, work, and more work. Soulmates wouldn't need to work at mariage, it would come naturally. Marriage, like love, is a choice. You choose to commit and you choose to stay committed. This is a very mature and solid way of looking at marriage.
> 
> I commend you for this. Keep going. You're on the right track.


:iagree:


----------



## Summer4744

Wazza said:


> Actually, I think the premise of this post is factually wrong.
> 
> As I read it, MrsM told OM that she wanted BOTH of them. Matt has acknowledged that she was a cake eater. Both have admitted there was no future with OM.
> 
> Not sure exactly what she was trying to do besides eat cake and get laid, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that she wanted to be done with Matt. She was just selfish in wanting other things as well. Not that this is less of a crime, but it does have bearing on her level of commitment to the relationship with Matt.


Wazza. I'm not saying she was going husband hunting and wanted to replace the Dr. It was just an itch she had to scratch. She perceived something better was out there so she went down that road. I don't think she was thinking while she was doing this, she was feeling. 

I only made this point about marriage because the Mrs was talking about how she didn't want to get divorced because she wants to "save the family." But she is just thinking about herself, not about the Dr or her son.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am much more aware of how I let the disconnect between Matt and I develop, and how that led to an emotional vulnerability the OM could exploit and convince me was romantic love between us. I am not allowing anyone else in my world to share my emotions, to know more about me and my thoughts, fears, struggles than Matt at this point. If I had known more about the danger of that in the first place, I honestly think this never would have happened. My interactions with OM did not start with sex. It was months of communication, of feeling like he was 'there for me", and a bunch of other ridiculous bullshyte that I know Matt would have easily provided if I had allowed him the opportunity. So I feel very equipped to make sure I never follow that pattern again.I don't think i have a general problem with "commitment" per se - in like a fear of being with one person or tied down or whatever - but I did put myself in a position to let someone else become more essential to my daily existence than my husband. And that OM made me feel I provided the same essential connection to him in return. THAT is the root of this problem, in my estimation. Maintaining strict boundaries with outsiders, keeping open, honest communication with Matt, and staying engaged with him as a person and friend will be what is needed to prevent me from cheating again in the future. I am capable of all those things.


You have just articulated what I think is the most important thing. Thanks.

You need to add in awareness that we are all save to our sexual desires and must control them. Between those two, if you can really take them to heart, I think you have something here.

Not that my opinion matters, but well done. Hang in there.


----------



## warlock07

Wazza said:


> Actually, I think the premise of this post is factually wrong.
> 
> As I read it, MrsM told OM that she wanted BOTH of them. Matt has acknowledged that she was a cake eater. Both have admitted there was no future with OM.
> 
> Not sure exactly what she was trying to do besides eat cake and get laid, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that she wanted to be done with Matt. She was just selfish in wanting other things as well. Not that this is less of a crime, but it does have bearing on her level of commitment to the relationship with Matt.


I don't agree with this. Unless she somehow knew Matt would be accepting of a polyamorous relationship, she was indeed stating that she wanted to be done with Matt through her actions. She knew infidelity was a deal breaker and even worse, they were heavily working through a false R while she was in her affair. She knew Matt would dump her if he finds out about the affair. In this case, her actions speak a lot louder than words. Not to mention, she probably was not ready to leave Matt due to a myriad of other reasons(or benefits) like the kid, house,finances, OM's employment and her reputation among her family and friends. Had the OM been someone more equal in this regard, I think the choice to leave Matt would have been more easier.


----------



## CH

Mrs. Mat, I know you're getting bashed but I also know you're trying to do the best you can to prove to Mr. Mat that you've changed. Could it be too little too late, only Mr. Mat knows that.

My final advice to you is, never answer with an I don't know anymore. You do know, you just don't want to hurt him anymore with the truth. The truth will set you free, even if he leaves you, at least you can be honest with yourself that you gave it everything and there WERE NO MORE LIES on your part.

I know you want to try and salvage this marriage and some of his questions are too hard to answer truthfully. When my wife asked me I used the I don't know for a long time. Until I finally came out and told her because I wanted to get laid and the opportunity arose and I took it. Plain and simple. Was I in love with the OW, I told her I was at that point.

It hurt my wife alot but at least she got the truth that she wanted. Granted I didn't spill the beans on everything but anything she wanted to know I told her. I know that my wife knows there is more, but she got the answers to what she needed to move on with or without me. Luckily for me, she decided to move on with for now.

Well the only question I never answered directly was if the OW was better than my wife in bed. I told my wife I could tell the truth but was she ready to hear it, she never asked again.


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> Just so you recognize it.
> The moment you said to the OM, gee isn't it funny how my husband thinks I've got a think for you he he. Is when you truly began betraying Matt. You chose to belittle his concerns about the OM by telling the OM about them. That was both a betrayal of Matt's trust because that was a very personal conversation, but it was clearly you saying to the OM, see even Matt sees it. Now what you are you going to do about taking me up on it?


This was the moment OM knew he could have her if he played the cards well but the betrayal, the betrayal, the violation of the intimacy of the marriage started earlier. 
Mrs already stated she started sharing more personal info around Jan/fen. It likely included the marital problems, Matt shortcomings... the whole EA nine yards. The intimacy (sharing herself, her feelings, what was going on her life nad mind) already shifted to OM.


Wazza said:


> Not only that, but this would also been the start of where OM had all the facts and Matt didn't.


I wonder - in the same line of sharing personal info - whether OM knew they were trying to get pregnant again but then she didn't which resulted in Mrs going back to BC. 
I don't put it for Mrs to ask here but to illustrate how EAs work. Matt was in the dark wabout his wife's real life while OM was in the know for a while already.


----------



## Acabado

warlock07 said:


> I don't agree with this. Unless she somehow knew Matt would be accepting of a polyamorous relationship, she was indeed stating that she wanted to be done with Matt through her actions. She knew infidelity was a deal breaker and even worse, they were heavily working through a false R while she was in her affair. She knew Matt would dump her if he finds out about the affair. In this case, her actions speak a lot louder than words. Not to mention, she probably was not ready to leave Matt due to a myriad of other reasons(or benefits) like the kid, house,finances, OM's employment and her reputation among her family and friends. Had the OM been someone more equal in this regard, I think the choice to leave Matt would have been more easier.


I understand where it comes from but I disagree with this. From what I know about the story OM is not someone she chose out of the blue to exit her marriage only to realize later he was not a good match. Or to blow the marriage passive agressively forcing Matt to end it (from what we can read in the skipe message to OM). I can be wrong, I'd like to read Mrs adressing this. 
They were in a innapropiate relationship for years (at least from the proffesional point of view), the emotional attachement developed since then, early this year it become with no doubt an EA which become later an PA. She didn't choose an AP. 
This kind of delusion of being in love with two people happens sadly very often. And the "vague" acknowledge that being caught could be a dealbreaker doesn't stop any cheater/zombie in the fog. It didn't stop my wife who didn't have any plan (reasonable or not) with him. Sometimes people don't always have intentions beyond enjoying the now. This "actions prove she wanted out" doesn't cut in my book. It's how it cake eating work.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> . IMO, the ONLY way to go forward is to look at what we want and need as adults at this stage in our lives, and that is very different that what we needed at 21 and 22 years old. THAT is what I am examining. What Matt and I can offer each other in a relationship NOW. What we want and need in a relationship in the FUTURE. How we want to identify and define those ideas is what I am considering.


A little over a month ago you were filling the needs of a 21 year old. That is what you should be examing. You said OM was meeting a need. Unless you understand why and what trigger you rump with CJ, you will not prevent it.

Your affair began when you chose your theater over your family. CJ was able to enter because he was part of something that was more important than you family.

The reason you can love them both is because they are not in conflict. Matt was the husband and father, CJ is theater, care free and no responsibilty. They are polar opposites. 

I fear that you are doing all of this for the wrong reasons and need to figure out your conflict first. If you do not now, you will do this (or just leave) in 10 years.

CJ was an exit affair and a life change for you. Sometime after CJ left, when Matt was moving on, you decided you did not want to be left. You are not doing this because of love of husband, it is fear of rejection or abandonment.

As I have said before, fix yourself. This means finding out who you are and what you really want.


----------



## WyshIknew

Mrs_Mathias said:


> THAT is what I am examining. What Matt and I can offer each other in a relationship NOW. What we want and need in a relationship in the FUTURE.


I hope this doesn't come across as lewd, lascivious, voyeuristic or downright obscene because it's not meant to be. I also don't want to be seen as 'bashing' I am just relating what I perceive to be the truth of the matter.

You blithely talk about what you can offer Matt in a relationship NOW (your emphasis).

Well judging from his most recent posts on his thread (I could be wrong), what you bring to the relationship NOW is a vision of the OM's hand on your head while you are bobbing up and down on his penis.

As I say I don't want to be seen as merely bashing for the sake of it or deliberately obscene.

I think from Matt's most recent posts this is the harsh reality that you have to deal with.

I actually feel some pity for you, because if you are truly remorseful, reading Matt's most recent posts must be really wreaking havoc on your emotions, knowing what you have done to the man you claim to love.

(Mods, Matt, if this is too graphic please let me know and I will happily delete it. I just felt it had to be said.)


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Yes, as you can probably guess, last night was a rough one here. I was gone to a hair appointment in the afternoon, and when I came home, I found Matt had been revisiting the terrible things I wrote to OM on FB. We discussed that maybe the hair appointment and me being gone was a trigger for him, or perhaps it was the fact that I was buying underwear again yesterday and tried to include him a little in that with some flirty texts. I have lost 30 lbs over the last six months, and everything I own is too big. I had originally purchased new things over the summer in NYC, but threw them all out after D-Day 3 because I couldn't know for sure what I had worn when over the last four months. So it was a combination of factors of things, I think. I didn't mean to trigger him, I was trying to "reclaim" something for us, I guess, but it didn't work. Sometimes Matt seems to want that type of thing and sometimes it has the opposite effect, so I just need to try to be more aware or else let him take the lead in situations like that.

Anyway, once I got home and our son was put to bed, Matt and I sat in front of the computer for a bit while he read transcripts of my conversations to me, periodically interjecting with, "And you want me to take you back?" It was horrible to go through those things I had written. We had done something similar after D-day #1, when Matt made me read them aloud to him. That day I just kind of shut down to get through it. But this time, Matt was also explaining some of the things he felt when he discovered them the first time. It really gave me a more substantial look into what he was and is still going through when he looks at what I've done. We spent more time working on the D papers, and then said goodnight. I spent most of the night just staring at the ceiling, trying to figure out how I'd behaved so cruelly and STUPIDLY. Why didn't my brain kick in and stop me? Why was I able to just rationalize and compartmentalize and avoid all the tough things I would face by doing this? I know why I was vulnerable to the affair, and why the "feelings of love" were present for OM. I can guard against any sort of repeat of those situations. But that doesn't explain why I was a person who would give into that instead of just saying no.

I feel so sh1tty for what I did, and I hate the fact that Matt has to go through all this pain and anger. I would give ANYTHING to go back in time, undo this harm and figure myself out BEFORE the affair ever even started. I AM learning from this. I AM making better choices and looking at myself and others more clearly now. But I wish this wasn't the way to discover that.

For those who have asked (or haven't but are wondering) the things I wrote to OM and the things I did with him are similar to things that I have said and done with my husband. This is not an example of a WW denying her husband and giving things to OM. Other than the venue (FB/Skype) the types of interactions were not unusual. It probably makes it 1000 times worse, because Matt can really picture me saying and doing those things, and how I'd react and look in my responses. I know that on some days, THAT is all I can bring to this relationship right now in his eyes. But I just keep working on changing me, being more aware and engaged with Matt and our son in every way available to me. And I hope the roller coaster takes us to a better place today. I will be working to try to help that happen. And if it doesn't, then I hope I can hold onto my own emotional turmoil and focus on doing what I can for Matt and our son, in whatever way he will accept from me.


----------



## being the best me

I don't know if you guys are being intimate with one another? If so i would suggest that the both of you try and do things that the both of you have never done so you can start on rebuilding a speacialness that only you and him have shared. So he can start replacing those bad memories with good ones. 

Just a thought


----------



## Chaparral

I have always hesitated to say it here because it makes me feel very guilty. But,cheating is described as being almost as hurtful as the death of a close loved one. In my honest opinion, because of the betrayal, it is even worse in many cases.

I hope you can make this up with Mr. M but you can see now how these things can end up so tragically and some people don't make it.


----------



## happyman64

Some days you have to take lumps from Matt.

That is quite normal. He needs to work these emotions out in his head and heart. So he will revisit these hurtful episodes from time to time.

And no matter what if you feel remorse for these actions you do need to show it.

No matter what happens Matt is your Husband still and the father of your child.

You need to show him the respect now. And in the future no matter what happens to your marriage.

And if you still love your husband and are working to Reconcile knowing you can be good Nd loyal again.

Then it is up to you to fight for your marriage.

When you talk I am sure you tell him you do not want to Divorce.

But do you ever tell him that you will fight for the marriage and how you will go about that.

It is called heavy lifting.....

In the end the decision is Matt's. and you have to respect his decision.

But that does not mean you have to accept it!

So if you live him, fight for him.

It is all you can do Mrs. M.......


----------



## Wazza

tdwal said:


> Come on you trying to say a BS hurts as much as those parents that lost their child in this school shooting. That's a pathetic comment and disrespectful to those parents.


No.

There was no mention of a shooting in Chap's post.

I have had my wife have an affair and I have lost a parent. The affair hurt more. For me, at least, it is that simple.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

happyman64 said:


> Some days you have to take lumps from Matt.
> 
> That is quite normal. He needs to work these emotions out in his head and heart. So he will revisit these hurtful episodes from time to time.
> 
> And no matter what if you feel remorse for these actions you do need to show it.
> 
> No matter what happens Matt is your Husband still and the father of your child.
> 
> You need to show him the respect now. And in the future no matter what happens to your marriage.
> 
> And if you still love your husband and are working to Reconcile knowing you can be good Nd loyal again.
> 
> Then it is up to you to fight for your marriage.
> 
> When you talk I am sure you tell him you do not want to Divorce.
> 
> But do you ever tell him that you will fight for the marriage and how you will go about that.
> 
> It is called heavy lifting.....
> 
> In the end the decision is Matt's. and you have to respect his decision.
> 
> But that does not mean you have to accept it!
> 
> So if you live him, fight for him.
> 
> It is all you can do Mrs. M.......


Thanks HM - it is all that I can do. I think I tell him that I am fighting for our marriage, but I will work on making sure I am very clear with that. When I talk about what I am doing or will/would do, Matt seems to not want a relationship where that is necessary (as far as transparency, boundaries, etc.) but I don't think he would have to feel like my parole officer or whatever forever. I continue to offer that information and do it for myself and my own accountability at this point. I want to know that I am taking every step possible for me to NEVER repeat any of this type of behavior again.

I am and will keep fighting for our relationship to survive this. But it is ultimately Matt's choice what he can live with and if he can eventually see a time where we could share love and emotional connection again. If he can't, I want far more for him than a relationship without that. So, as conflicted as it feels - even though I am fighting to renew and rebuild this relationship, I will also walk away from it and give Matt the respect he deserves after everything that I've done.


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks HM - it is all that I can do. I think I tell him that I am fighting for our marriage, but I will work on making sure I am very clear with that. When I talk about what I am doing or will/would do, Matt seems to not want a relationship where that is necessary (as far as transparency, boundaries, etc.) but I don't think he would have to feel like my parole officer or whatever forever. I continue to offer that information and do it for myself and my own accountability at this point. I want to know that I am taking every step possible for me to NEVER repeat any of this type of behavior again.
> 
> I am and will keep fighting for our relationship to survive this. But it is ultimately Matt's choice what he can live with and if he can eventually see a time where we could share love and emotional connection again. If he can't, I want far more for him than a relationship without that. So, as conflicted as it feels - even though I am fighting to renew and rebuild this relationship, I will also walk away from it and give Matt the respect he deserves after everything that I've done.


Good. But one thing both of you need to realize. There is no walking away from him or your marriage. Because you have a child together you will always share that connection.

In fact, you will have some kind of relationship even if you are no longer married.

That is the way life is when children are involved.

So no walking away, just stepping away from the marriage.


----------



## CH

Mrs_Mathias said:


> but I don't think he would have to feel like my parole officer or whatever forever. I continue to offer that information and do it for myself and my own accountability at this point. I want to know that I am taking every step possible for me to NEVER repeat any of this type of behavior again.


Mrs. Mat, no matter how much you do, they will never trust us 100% again. Even if God came down and told Mr. Mat that he will watch you 24/7 and make sure it doesn't happen again, Mr. Mat will still not give you 100% trust ever again.

You're doing great on your end. Heal yourself and in the process you might even heal Mr. Mat enough to change his mind.

BTW, don't go overboard with the transparency, what I mean is, don't keep telling him I'm doing this for you, I'm doing that for you, etc...Just do it and if he sees it good, if he doesn't don't run up like a little kid and say

Look at me, I did a good thing, look, look. If you know what I mean.

He'll be your parole officer for the rest of his life if you both R. My wife checks my phone and e-mails once in a blue moon (most likely when she triggers) and it's been 15 years.

Someone had a great analogy, if your loyal dog bites you once, it's always going to be there in the back of your head that he could bite you again in the future.


----------



## Kasler

tdwal said:


> Come on you trying to say a BS hurts as much as those parents that lost their child in this school shooting. That's a pathetic comment and disrespectful to those parents.


I don't know about you, but in the depths of my false R period, amidst mild paranoid, PTSD, panic attacks, and serious contemplations of suicide due to me honestly believing my life was over,the level of pain is can definitely on the same level.

This may sound insensitive and I am in no way making light of that tragedy, but pain is pain. Whose to declare of the severity of the raw emotions someone else feels? 

Those parents, those children who survived, and the community will likely be scarred for life, and many BSs are also scarred albeit in different ways of course.

This scar is nowhere near what those poor people are suffering, but If you were to ask me what I was doing 4 years ago in any month, other than work I honestly couldn't tell you. I was in deep depression for more than a year and that time in my life is just a haze, and I'm probably never going to be able to recall it completely. People tell me I did little more than work, eat, watch tv, sleep for the whole time in near seclusion.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

happyman64 said:


> Good. But one thing both of you need to realize. There is no walking away from him or your marriage. Because you have a child together you will always share that connection.
> 
> In fact, you will have some kind of relationship even if you are no longer married.
> 
> That is the way life is when children are involved.
> 
> So no walking away, just stepping away from the marriage.


Walking away was probably not the right choice of words. I know we will always be connected through our son. I was trying to show that I will not make the divorce contentious or difficult, and give him respect and dignity as much as possible in the end.


----------



## Gabriel

CH said:


> Mrs. Mat, no matter how much you do, they will never trust us 100% again. Even if God came down and told Mr. Mat that he will watch you 24/7 and make sure it doesn't happen again, Mr. Mat will still not give you 100% trust ever again.
> 
> You're doing great on your end. Heal yourself and in the process you might even heal Mr. Mat enough to change his mind.
> 
> BTW, don't go overboard with the transparency, what I mean is, don't keep telling him I'm doing this for you, I'm doing that for you, etc...Just do it and if he sees it good, if he doesn't don't run up like a little kid and say
> 
> Look at me, I did a good thing, look, look. If you know what I mean.
> 
> He'll be your parole officer for the rest of his life if you both R. My wife checks my phone and e-mails once in a blue moon (most likely when she triggers) and it's been 15 years.
> 
> Someone had a great analogy, if your loyal dog bites you once, it's always going to be there in the back of your head that he could bite you again in the future.


This is totally true. It is born from the lies. And since Ms. Mathias went beyond the normal lying that an affair entails, it will be even harder for Matt to trust her. Heck, she even lied to us here on an anonymous internet board.

The pain I read in these threads is torturous. Sitting down and reading through those things together is awful. I can see doing that once, but repeating it is just going to do further damage.

It sounds like Matt is leaning heavily toward D, and he has every right to do that, but I do feel bad for the pain in both of you. Good luck.


----------



## Wazza

CH said:


> Mrs. Mat, no matter how much you do, they will never trust us 100% again. Even if God came down and told Mr. Mat that he will watch you 24/7 and make sure it doesn't happen again, Mr. Mat will still not give you 100% trust ever again.
> 
> You're doing great on your end. Heal yourself and in the process you might even heal Mr. Mat enough to change his mind.
> 
> BTW, don't go overboard with the transparency, what I mean is, don't keep telling him I'm doing this for you, I'm doing that for you, etc...Just do it and if he sees it good, if he doesn't don't run up like a little kid and say
> 
> Look at me, I did a good thing, look, look. If you know what I mean.
> 
> He'll be your parole officer for the rest of his life if you both R. My wife checks my phone and e-mails once in a blue moon (most likely when she triggers) and it's been 15 years.
> 
> Someone had a great analogy, if your loyal dog bites you once, it's always going to be there in the back of your head that he could bite you again in the future.


But for me, at least, if I left my wife I would never trust anyone else again either.

Sad for me, but if Matt is the same and realises it, your chances improve as a result. I cannot regain what was lost by leaving her. What is gone is gone forever.


----------



## sandc

Wazza said:


> No.
> 
> There was no mention of a shooting in Chap's post.
> 
> I have had my wife have an affair and I have lost a parent. The affair hurt more. For me, at least, it is that simple.


I can totally understand this. At least when a loved one dies you can mourn them. When someone cheats on you, it's like they murdered the person you knew. Then you have to live with the murderer every day.

*sigh*


----------



## WyshIknew

happyman64 said:


> Some days you have to take lumps from Matt.
> 
> That is quite normal. He needs to work these emotions out in his head and heart. So he will revisit these hurtful episodes from time to time.
> 
> And no matter what if you feel remorse for these actions you do need to show it.
> 
> No matter what happens Matt is your Husband still and the father of your child.
> 
> You need to show him the respect now. And in the future no matter what happens to your marriage.
> 
> And if you still love your husband and are working to Reconcile knowing you can be good Nd loyal again.
> 
> Then it is up to you to fight for your marriage.
> 
> When you talk I am sure you tell him you do not want to Divorce.
> 
> But do you ever tell him that you will fight for the marriage and how you will go about that.
> 
> It is called heavy lifting.....
> 
> In the end the decision is Matt's. and you have to respect his decision.
> 
> But that does not mean you have to accept it!
> 
> So if you live him, fight for him.
> 
> It is all you can do Mrs. M.......


:iagree:

And I do hope you took my earlier post as it was intended, without any malice.

Just keep on with what you are doing, as much as this is a bad period there will be good ones too.
Capitalise on the good swings and try to support Matt through the down swings.
Hopefully the good swings will eventually outweigh the bad.

Also I know your focus is on Matt at the moment but you are only human. You will be no good to Matt and your son if you 'break'. Please look after yourself too.


----------



## Chaparral

Having 100% trust in anyone is a mistake. Having been cheated on early by someone that truly loved me, I haven't made that mistake again. I am always watching for cracks and predators. It has served me well.

Thats why I believe in reconcilliation at least if kids are involved.

I also believe in the spouses knowing that the betrayed will move on in a heartbeat.


----------



## loveisforever

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks HM - it is all that I can do. I think I tell him that I am fighting for our marriage, but I will work on making sure I am very clear with that. When I talk about what I am doing or will/would do, Matt seems to not want a relationship where that is necessary (as far as transparency, boundaries, etc.) but I don't think he would have to feel like my parole officer or whatever forever. I continue to offer that information and do it for myself and my own accountability at this point. I want to know that I am taking every step possible for me to NEVER repeat any of this type of behavior again.
> 
> I am and will keep fighting for our relationship to survive this. But it is ultimately Matt's choice what he can live with and if he can eventually see a time where we could share love and emotional connection again. If he can't, I want far more for him than a relationship without that. So, as conflicted as it feels - even though I am fighting to renew and rebuild this relationship, I will also walk away from it and give Matt the respect he deserves after everything that I've done.


Mrs_Mathias:

I can tell you are very intelligent and very determinded to do whatever to get what you want. 

I do hope both you and your husband can have a happy ending. But I bet it can not be your guys together.

Your marriage has already died, abandoned by you long time ago. The fact that you said you wanted to "fight for your marriage" shows that you are still not willing to accept the consequence and the nature of your past action. 

You should fight for your yourself. You have a broken soul, probably has a Borderline Personality Disorder. It would be very hard for you to change the way you thinks,feel, value, etc. It would be nothing short of miracle for you to pull yourself over and turn yourself into a lady that is CAPABLE of loving and long-term marriage. 

When you fight for yourself, your are true to yourself. If you fight to win over your husband, you are Manipulative. 

Remember that you can lie to yourself. Remember your feelings can cheat you. Remember there are differences between "love" and "need". To find your true "self" is what you should be focused on now. 

You have already had false R. The next false R is not good for you and your husband considering how much energy you are both putting on.

If you could realize your real problem in yourself and make a real change for yourself in 2 years, I would pay you great respect.


----------



## sandc

This is such a sad situation. I don't think anyone should attempt to diagnose MrsM. But I agree that she needs to find out what it is inside her that is broken. Something is very wrong. 

I think one thing that may help you, believe it or not, is to accept that this marriage is dead. Done. You need to start fixing yourself. Prepare yourself to be either Dr_M's new wife, or the best wife you can possibly be to someone else. Maybe he will want to be married to who you become. The old you as he knew you, is no more.

As an encouragement, but please don't get any false hope from this, there are other BS's on this forum that were going headlong into divorce, no questions asked, but have not as of yet. Their wives fought to become the best wife and person they could be. They fought their own nature and are at least stemming the tide. Time will tell if it actually works for them or not.


----------



## jim123

She has to first realize it is serious. The bandaid will not fix it. If she gets the help she needs by telling her IC the truth, Matt will see actual change.


----------



## dogman

MrsM, I know what you mean when you say you are fighting to save your marriage. I spent 6+ years fighting for mine.

I have to say though, you are in a lose/lose situation. You are the bad guy win or lose.

If you win (sticking to the fighting analogy) you will end up back in your marriage you didn't value. Right now it seems like all you want in the world. Just like before when all you wanted was poly amorous loving. You will be back where you started and life will calm down and you will be bored and say to yourself..."wait, is this what I really want" again. Its a loop.

If you lose you will feel beaten and you will always say my life would be perfect if I didn't do this awful thing. You will be the bad guy forever. And you will never be fully happy because you lost. And this is only because you are genuine in your grieving for your marriage. You actually don't really even know why you do what you do when you look at it from a different time. You are dangerously out of touch with your true motivations and who you really are in your core being.

The only way to win is to fix yourself and that's a rare thing. More rare than anyone would have you believe. 

Sometimes people think they've fixed themselves and all the did was enlarge the loop of selfish behavior to encompass a larger period of time before the facade falls away and the real you comes into view again.

Sorry but this is a very hard thing to admit to yourself. And it has to be admitted in order to change the pattern.

I believe this is true whenever I hear someone really struggle to understand what they did. And even after much time still say "I don't know hy I did that" it's often a lie but in your case I think it's true.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I had another IC session yesterday. It was good to get in before the holidays hit next week. I've been struggling with a low level nausea coupled with a general depression since Saturday. I think it's just the overwhelming reality of what I've done. We talked a lot about the events of the last few days, how I feel about revisiting the FB conversation, my thoughts about how I can prevent any recurrence of this type of behavior in the future, and whether I am a fundamentally "bad" person. I'm still looking for what in me allowed me to say yes at the pivotal moment that it became a PA, instead of having the willpower to say no despite any "feelings" for OM. It's hard to face your own weaknesses and shortcomings. I would have never characterized myself as someone who would do something like this. It still sometimes feels foreign as I look at it now from outside those activities.

Matt is coming out of his "lethal plane of flatness" and has been angry and sad and still disbelieving a little bit over the past few days. I've tried to do what I can for him in any given moment - whether it's hold him or stay away, depending on his wants. I think for both of us, the end of the semester and loss of structured tasks has left us more emotionally ragged and lost. There is nothing to distract us from the destruction I have wrought. Even when there are tasks that I should do, I don't/can't. 

Matt shared Portal with me, so that's been an enjoyable distraction and some uncomplicated time together. My navigation of a first person game like that is a bit like a drunk off his a$$ sailor on his fourth day of shore leave, but I like the puzzles and strategy. We used to really enjoy gaming together - played City of Heroes for years. But like so many other things in our relationship, that ended and we didn't replace it with something else to do together - we just did more stuff apart. I regret so much losing touch with Matt as my friend over the last few years. We really did (and I think still do/can) have a genuine enjoyment of each other. Matt is witty and smart, and always makes me think of things differently when we converse.

I have to be out of town for 3 weeks in January. It's really starting to weigh on me and I'm fighting a lot of anxiety every time I think about it. I think that's one reason I haven't been doing the work I need to for that project right now. I don't want to leave Matt and our son. I worry so much about what Matt will go through while I am away. They could come with me for the first 5 days or so before school resumes, but I don't think Matt wants to right now. I just want to be able to help him manage the stress my absence. I can and will do the same types of things that I do when we are here - emailing daily schedule, checking in regularly with any changes, just communicating and letting him know that I am thinking of him, but I wonder if there's anything else I can do to maintain full transparency and keep working on our connection while I am away? I just have to keep up my own spirits and faith as well that I am in a better place than I was before and I can handle this.


----------



## JCD

No way anyone else can handle that project? It has to be YOU?

Okay, I get it. You signed up and didn't expect this explosion. What if you got hit by a car? Would you still crawl by your fingernails to get to that project? Of course not. You don't have anything if you don't have your health. So we know who is in first place (and I am NOT dinging you for that)

Here is one of many things. I get that you are a grown up and have a welter of responsibilities to deal with. BUT...you knew this was coming and you had a MONTH to have someone else do it. To call in favors, to shift things around. Did you even TRY?

So...we know what is coming in second place. It isn't Matt or the kid. AGAIN.

Think very hard about that.

If you made a good faith effort on this, I apologize.

For the record, I think this is more a sin of habit than one of malice...but how will Matt look at it? That you haven't changed.

So...go on this project. Let those mental movies of his fester. But...and let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR, you need to start to jettison any of these future travel plans right the hell now!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

It does have to be me. It is a small company and I have been contracted for a year. In addition, i teach a class at the college that is tied to this. so in essence, i am doubly contracted. i will be alone the first 10 days and then my parents and son will be joinng me. If I had been injured in a car accident or the like, it is possible that the production would have been canceled and the company would be out what it had invested so far. Matt and I talked about this several times over the last month and he has always said that he wants me to do it and do well. I HAVE cancelled all future contracts that require travel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

Is this project worth more than your marriage?

3 weeks is a lot of time for him to decide he can live without you. Basically a test run to see what life is like without you. He might decide he likes life without the biggest trigger, you.


----------



## 3putt

JCD said:


> No way anyone else can handle that project? It has to be YOU?
> 
> Okay, I get it. You signed up and didn't expect this explosion. What if you got hit by a car? Would you still crawl by your fingernails to get to that project? Of course not. You don't have anything if you don't have your health. So we know who is in first place (and I am NOT dinging you for that)
> 
> Here is one of many things. I get that you are a grown up and have a welter of responsibilities to deal with. BUT...you knew this was coming and you had a MONTH to have someone else do it. To call in favors, to shift things around. Did you even TRY?
> 
> So...we know what is coming in second place. It isn't Matt or the kid. AGAIN.
> 
> Think very hard about that.
> 
> If you made a good faith effort on this, I apologize.
> 
> For the record, I think this is more a sin of habit than one of malice...but how will Matt look at it? That you haven't changed.
> 
> So...go on this project. Let those mental movies of his fester. But...and let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR, you need to start to jettison any of these future travel plans right the hell now!


Well said, JCD. MM, you go on the this trip and you just may as well just file for divorce before you go. No sense in leaving Matt in marital purgatory any longer that he has to be. He's been crushed by your actions and you're going to follow this up by leaving him alone to wallow in misery wondering what the hell you are up to....for 3 weeks????????? Good call!! 

:scratchhead:

Uh-uh


----------



## Mike11

Take him with you, no matter the costs, you must keep him close


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It does have to be me. It is a small company and I have been contracted for a year. In addition, i teach a class at the college that is tied to this. so in essence, i am doubly contracted. i will be alone the first 10 days and then my parents and son will be joinng me. If I had been injured in a car accident or the like, it is possible that the production would have been canceled and the company would be out what it had invested so far. Matt and I talked about this several times over the last month and he has always said that he wants me to do it and do well. I HAVE cancelled all future contracts that require travel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I'm just going to say this because I need to. I still believe that Matt is leaning toward divorce heavily. But there is a small part of him that would consider reconciliation under certain circumstances. I don't give a hoot if he said he is ok with you going. He may even believe it himself. But this is one of those moments during a R when the WS has to do some serious heavy lifting. This is one time when you should not listen to him but to think about it and decide for yourself what is best for Matt and your marriage. My prediction....if you go your marriage is toast.


----------



## survivorwife

Mike11 said:


> Take him with you, no matter the costs, you must keep him close


:scratchhead:

Matt is a grown man, not her child. It's not up to her to "take him with her" as he has his own adult responsibilities to attend to. It would be disrespectful of him as a person to ""keep him close" in order for her to control or otherwise prevent him from experiencing some time alone without her. She doesn't get to be his "jailer".


----------



## CH

Mike11 said:


> Take him with you, no matter the costs, you must keep him close


He has classes to teach and their son has school by the end of the 1st week. Remember Mr. Mat is also a school teacher. The cost could be his job for him to go, if I was Mr. Mat there is no way I'm risking my job for a spouse who cheated.


----------



## survivorwife

CH said:


> He has classes to teach and their son has school by the end of the 1st week. Remember Mr. Mat is also a school teacher. The cost could be his job for him to go, if I was Mr. Mat there is no way I'm risking my job for a spouse who cheated.


:iagree:

And hasn't he had enough disruption in his life?


----------



## 3putt

survivorwife said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And hasn't he had enough disruption in his life?


Yep, she should be busting her own ass and disrupting HER life to accommodate Matt and help him heal. I don't see any efforts out of her to indicate she is willing to do anything of the sort.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I know the timing of this is bad, but it's not a surprise for us. It happens every year. Is it more important than my marriage? Absolutely not. Will I ever take on another contract like this again? Not likely, unless Matt can really convince me it's what *he* wants me to do.

Yes, it will give Matt an opportunity to see what life is like without me. Am I going to do everything I can to stay in contact with him and let him know I wish we were together? Of course. The business I am in doesn't have the honor of someone who does military service, but often the expectations are similar, with much less job security. If you don't honor your contracts, you don't work. I've missed many important things in life, as does everyone else who really pursues the performing arts. When Matt and I were beginning our relationship, he knew the path I was on and chose to accept that as part of loving me. I know when he says now that he wants me to have a great production, he really does mean it. 

Will it be incredibly hard for both of us? Without a doubt. Am I terrified about the possible outcomes? Yes. But, I have to trust right now that he means what he says when he tells me he wants me to do well, and knowing that I will be doing everything possible to maintain our relationship while I am away. I am not giving up on us. I hope that Matt will know how much I miss him, and miss me in return. I hope I can offer him support and love, and continue to show through my actions my dedication to being a changed individual.


----------



## bfree

Mrs M,

From a man that's been there this is what is going to happen. You'll leave and his anxiety will skyrocket. Every minute that you are away Matt is going to trigger. He will have mind movies of you and the OM being together while you are away. At some point he will call you and you won't answer. The reason you don't answer will be totally legitimite but in Matt's mind the reason you didn't answer is because you and the OM are doing the horizontal mombo. Eventually the anxiety and mind movies will become too much for him and he will decide once and for all that you just aren't worth it. He will decide that all the mistrust and lies are too much to deal with. He will decide not to live with the anxiety, depression, anger, hate, mind movies, PTSD, etc. He will decide to END YOUR MARRIAGE FOR GOOD.

Just so you know why when you come back things will have changed so drastically.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

If I were Matt I would simply assume you were taking the opportunity to continue cheating while you were out of town. After all why would there be any trust at this point?


----------



## CH

He needs her out of his face so he can think clearly IMO.

So he can finally make a decision to either R or D her.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know the timing of this is bad, but it's not a surprise for us. It happens every year. Is it more important than my marriage? Absolutely not.
> 
> *Then cancel and take whatever penalties you incur. Consider them consequences for betraying the man who pledged his love to you. If it means never working in that industry again....so be it.*
> 
> 
> Will I ever take on another contract like this again? Not likely, unless Matt can really convince me it's what *he* wants me to do.
> 
> Yes, it will give Matt an opportunity to see what life is like without me. Am I going to do everything I can to stay in contact with him and let him know I wish we were together? Of course. The business I am in doesn't have the honor of someone who does military service, but often the expectations are similar, with much less job security. If you don't honor your contracts, you don't work. I've missed many important things in life, as does everyone else who really pursues the performing arts. When Matt and I were beginning our relationship, he knew the path I was on and chose to accept that as part of loving me.
> 
> *That was before you betrayed him. Think he accepts it now? Not so much.*
> 
> I know when he says now that he wants me to have a great production, he really does mean it.
> 
> *No, its what he believes now before you go. When he starts triggering off his a$$ while your gone he will think differently. Its going to reinforce just how selfish you have been and still are.*
> 
> Will it be incredibly hard for both of us? Without a doubt. Am I terrified about the possible outcomes? Yes. But, I have to trust right now that he means what he says when he tells me he wants me to do well, and knowing that I will be doing everything possible to maintain our relationship while I am away. I am not giving up on us. I hope that Matt will know how much I miss him, and miss me in return. I hope I can offer him support and love, and continue to show through my actions my dedication to being a changed individual.


Mrs. M, you're a fool. This is the death knell, the swan song. Call it whatever you want. Matt is an incredibly strong man but no man could survive three weeks with you away at this delicate stage of things.


----------



## 3putt

CH said:


> He needs her out of his face so he can think clearly IMO.
> 
> So he can finally make a decision to either R or D her.


She goes on this trip and he won't have to lift a finger to decide a thing. The decision will be for him....by her.

Bet the farm on it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Ya, I can't really see the marriage surviving this kind of separation at this stage. My money is on this being the end.


----------



## happyman64

dogman said:


> Is this project worth more than your marriage?
> 
> 3 weeks is a lot of time for him to decide he can live without you. Basically a test run to see what life is like without you. He might decide he likes life without the biggest trigger, you.


You know Dogman 3 weeks is a lot of time for both of them to decide they cannot live without each other too!!!

I think the break from each other will do them good.

And it is a work event.

Absence does make the heart grow fonder in certain instances.

In the end it is Matt's decision. But a break from all the drama and hurting is not a bad thing.

And the time to reflect on their issues without each others presence can be used constructively.


----------



## bfree

Mrs M

Since you betrayed Matt you've seen his anxiety level go up, you've seen him trigger and you've seen him suffer. You should know by now from being here that these things will increase greatly with you gone. So my question to you is why would you want to hurt him more? I can only think of 1 reason..... selfishness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

dogman said:


> Is this project worth more than your marriage?
> 
> 3 weeks is a lot of time for him to decide he can live without you. Basically a test run to see what life is like without you. He might decide he likes life without the biggest trigger, you.


Isn't that a good outcome for both of them if he indeed comes to that conclusion ? If he decides to stay with his wife, it should be his decision not because he is trapped with her. If he feels better without her, so be it.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know the timing of this is bad, but it's not a surprise for us. It happens every year. Is it more important than my marriage? Absolutely not. Will I ever take on another contract like this again? Not likely, unless Matt can really convince me it's what *he* wants me to do.
> 
> Yes, it will give Matt an opportunity to see what life is like without me. Am I going to do everything I can to stay in contact with him and let him know I wish we were together? Of course. The business I am in doesn't have the honor of someone who does military service, but often the expectations are similar, with much less job security. If you don't honor your contracts, you don't work. I've missed many important things in life, as does everyone else who really pursues the performing arts. When Matt and I were beginning our relationship, he knew the path I was on and chose to accept that as part of loving me. I know when he says now that he wants me to have a great production, he really does mean it.
> 
> Will it be incredibly hard for both of us? Without a doubt. Am I terrified about the possible outcomes? Yes. But, I have to trust right now that he means what he says when he tells me he wants me to do well, and knowing that I will be doing everything possible to maintain our relationship while I am away. I am not giving up on us. I hope that Matt will know how much I miss him, and miss me in return. I hope I can offer him support and love, and continue to show through my actions my dedication to being a changed individual.


Okay, I'm going to give you a free bit of advice because I like you and I actually, for stupid reasons, think you are sincere.

1) You find a woman who Matt trusts: his mom, his sister, his cousin, a young actress of probity and morality(if you know any...none you know has shown any so far) and you BEG them to come with you. You sell the hell out of that performance. You pay for their food, their transport, their time, whatever. And you glue them to your side.

Because there will be men there. And seeing what crappy morality theater people have (they are famous for it. Do I need to tell you what 'actress' meant in Elizibethan England? How about 'Lothario'?), you need a chaperone. Not a cell phone. Not a couple of texts a day: a chaperone. You glue her to your side.

You leave your laptop at home. Laptops have skype. Skype means you will be dropping your knickers for CJ as soon as you get to a WiFi hotspot. No, not really, but do you want Matt to think that? I would also suggest the dumbest phucking phone on the planet. Think tin cans and string.

Okay, maybe you can't do that. Here is a Voice Activated Recorder. It has enough memory to record 536 hours of recordings. Coincidently, that is 3.1 weeks.

Turn it on. Leave it on. Replace the batteries religiously. No, Matt won't listen to every single word you say. But 1) it will make you frigging mindful of what you say (and you probably need it) and 2) he CAN go back and listen to what was said if there is a recording. Yes, Matt will say this isn't necessary. *DON'T BELIEVE HIM!* Right now, there are almost NO efforts you can make which are too excessive to regain even a scrap of trust.

If he isn't concerned...he doesn't care...and that's not good. MAKE him start to believe he CAN care again!


You NEVER EVER be alone with a man. Not for a second. Not just for a brief conversation. Not even if you need to ream out a prima donna actor in private. That ship has sailed. You make this plain because actors are scumbags. They go into acting to hit on women...and make money. But the women are more reliably available than the money (QED)

Yes, this was said in a painful way, but frankly, as a woman, I can't believe you are falling for Matt's sh!t test and believing his WORDS.

His heart thinks he's second place AGAIN. I believe it and you didn't crap all over me.


----------



## Broken at 20

So, do you just pick and choose which contracts to honor? 
Like your marriage contract, the person with whom you will spend the rest of your life with, eh, not important. 
But this, 3 week trip in January, can't miss it for the world. 

Unless a Court orders you too, you don't have to go. 

But you would rather go on this trip and do whatever it is you are going to do, than stay and work on this marriage. 

What do you think staying would tell to Matt? Even if it nearly financially bankrupts you (and just you!) to do it? 
That you were willing to bankrupt yourself to spend just 3 more weeks with him to try and help him heal. 

If you go, what does it say? About this marriage? About your priorities? Or lack thereof?


----------



## tom67

Broken at 20 said:


> So, do you just pick and choose which contracts to honor?
> Like your marriage contract, the person with whom you will spend the rest of your life with, eh, not important.
> But this, 3 week trip in January, can't miss it for the world.
> 
> Unless a Court orders you too, you don't have to go.
> 
> But you would rather go on this trip and do whatever it is you are going to do, than stay and work on this marriage.
> 
> What do you think staying would tell to Matt? Even if it nearly financially bankrupts you (and just you!) to do it?
> That you were willing to bankrupt yourself to spend just 3 more weeks with him to try and help him heal.
> 
> If you go, what does it say? About this marriage? About your priorities? Or lack thereof?


If you sacrificed your job in an attempt to save your marriage with no guarantees of that would weigh alot imo.


----------



## JCD

tom67 said:


> If you sacrificed your job in an attempt to save your marriage with no guarantees of that would weigh alot imo.


She is in a very tough spot.

On the one hand, she COULD sacrifice everything to be with her son and husband. It might, MIGHT make a huge difference...or Doc could remember her offering anything to CJ again and again and dump her like yesterday's newspaper.

So she would be out her family AND her job. As things firm up, she can make a better determination.

This seems and is calculating. But she has to live too.

Granted, I would LOVE for a woman to be willing to make that sacrifice for me. I wonder if I have it in me to make that sacrifice for her...

I guess you have to be that devoted to get that devotion.

This probably isn't helping.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> She is in a very tough spot.
> 
> On the one hand, she COULD sacrifice everything to be with her son and husband. It might, MIGHT make a huge difference...or Doc could remember her offering anything to CJ again and again and dump her like yesterday's newspaper.
> 
> So she would be out her family AND her job. As things firm up, she can make a better determination.
> 
> This seems and is calculating. But she has to live too.
> 
> Granted, I would LOVE for a woman to be willing to make that sacrifice for me. I wonder if I have it in me to make that sacrifice for her...
> 
> I guess you have to be that devoted to get that devotion.
> 
> This probably isn't helping.


I guess it depends on whether she's willing to do anything, sacrifice anything to save her marriage. If she goes I guess we all have our answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bfree said:


> I guess it depends on whether she's willing to do anything, sacrifice anything to save her marriage. If she goes I guess we all have our answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes it is a tough call but she put herself in this position she does sound sincere, but sounds like too little too late jmo.


----------



## bfree

You say that this trip was expected. I bet Matt did not expect you to rip his heart out. You say this trip happens every year. Don't you know this year is not like every other one? This is the year you chose to betray your husband, your family, and your marriage vows. If you don't know why this year needs to be different I don't know what to tell you. I'm beginning to think you are incapable of making a good decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> I guess it depends on whether she's willing to do anything, sacrifice anything to save her marriage. If she goes I guess we all have our answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Life isn't always that simple. For example, right now, I'm thousands of miles from my family for a multitude of reasons. Good reasons, but in my heart, not adequate ones. But ignoring these duties and this job means I have nothing to feed my family. So tell me the path of wisdom there? What exactly does a devoted spouse/parent do?

It's easy to give this advice when one doesn't bear the consequences of these decisions. Now...I agree with you to a certain extent. Mrs. M needs a game changer and that could be it...or it could trash what little remains of her professional reputation for nothing. It's a tough call and I respect it. I also share some of the choices she bears so perhaps I'm a bit biased.

Mrs. M...if Dr. M DOES give permission for more of these junkets in the future...you'd be a fool to do so.


----------



## Broken at 20

Maybe he is letting her choose to see where he falls on her priority list? Test to see if she would put him first for once? 
Or maybe it is because, to him, this marriage is dead, he is just waiting for the right to declare it dead from the courts. And he just doesn't care what she does at this point.


----------



## Wazza

I'm trying to put myself in the Mathiases position here, and struggling.

I don't necessarily agree that going is a bad thing. Yes, it will precipitate a crisis, but that crisis is going to happen over time anyway in my opinion. Matt is going to have triggers, doubts, and times when he wants to walk. If he is going to break over this, I figure he is going to break anyway.

I have a lot of respect for how Matt is dealing with this. I think he is stronger and better than many or you assume.

JCD's suggestions of chaperones and VARS are very good suggestions. Very good. Because they will give Matt a means to assuage the doubts that I am sure will arise.

As for not taking a computer, well on the one hand she sets that trigger off every day at work, it just has to be dealt with. On the other hand, if this trip is to NY there are extra associations to be careful of.

Bottom line, a lot of people have been critical of Mrs M's job in this, and I don't totally agree. I agree she got it out of perspective, but I think that can be solved without stopping work.

I guess if I have a suggestion for both of them it would be to discuss their feelings about the trip honestly. No hidden thoughts, no stifling feelings for the sake of the other. I don't agree that Mrs M should lightly throw her career away.


----------



## Acabado

Waiting for Matt to comment on this. It seems they dealt with this already.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> We talked a lot about the events of the last few days, how I feel about revisiting the FB conversation, my thoughts about how I can prevent any recurrence of this type of behavior in the future, and whether I am a fundamentally "bad" person. I'm still looking for what in me allowed me to say yes at the pivotal moment that it became a PA, instead of having the willpower to say no despite any "feelings" for OM. It's hard to face your own weaknesses and shortcomings. I would have never characterized myself as someone who would do something like this.


Actually, I think the answer to that one is easy. Assuming you are not the sort of person who chases detached physical encounters, the EA was the mistake, the PA was just an outcome.

You let someone get ahead of Matt in your heart, you gave them all your secrets, and unfortunately for you, whatever his motives, he used them to exploit your vulnerabilities and bed you.

We all have promiscuous drives and desires. Fidelity is about not giving in to them. It's not about not having them.

So the way to avoid another PA is to avoid any hint of an EA.

If you get really through to reconciliation, this is something we should discuss further, because it is really lonely reconciling. You need support, and the baggage between your spouse and you means you don't totally get it in the marriage.


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> Bottom line, a lot of people have been critical of Mrs M's job in this, and I don't totally agree. I agree she got it out of perspective, but I think that can be solved without stopping work.
> 
> I guess if I have a suggestion for both of them it would be to discuss their feelings about the trip honestly. No hidden thoughts, no stifling feelings for the sake of the other. I don't agree that Mrs M should lightly throw her career away.


Thank you for the compliment.

But I am one of the people who see the affair as a mere symptom of the fact that she has constantly set her relationships on a far *FAR* lower plane than her work. Consciously or not, she diminished them, dragging her 'life' (which was her work) into her house. Actors, drama, her plans, sets and even her zombie like frame when she finally deigned to allow Doc recharge her batteries at home...so she could be fresh, vital, creative and engaged...for a applauding bunch of well dressed strangers. Nope, none of that to be reserved for Matt. He's running crew...at best. No parties for him. 

So CJ was just the cherry on the top of the sundae that she served her family in ample helpings...and that brown stuff wasn't chocolate.

Unless she shows a hell of a lot of willing with boundaries, reserving all that good time talent for her family FIRST, I think the theater should go.

Or keep it. But the cost will be her family. That doesn't make her a horrible person...except maybe to her husband and child, but if she isn't suited for the role of mother, pretending she is one is much worse, imo.

But she wants to try to keep both. Good luck with that.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Life isn't always that simple. For example, right now, I'm thousands of miles from my family for a multitude of reasons. Good reasons, but in my heart, not adequate ones. But ignoring these duties and this job means I have nothing to feed my family. So tell me the path of wisdom there? What exactly does a devoted spouse/parent do?
> 
> It's easy to give this advice when one doesn't bear the consequences of these decisions. Now...I agree with you to a certain extent. Mrs. M needs a game changer and that could be it...or it could trash what little remains of her professional reputation for nothing. It's a tough call and I respect it. I also share some of the choices she bears so perhaps I'm a bit biased.
> 
> Mrs. M...if Dr. M DOES give permission for more of these junkets in the future...you'd be a fool to do so.


Here's my opinion and I'm certainly willing to entertain opposing thoughts.

She should face severe consequences for what she did. If that turns out to be her job and/or career....so be it.

And if she is hedging her bets in case Matt does indeed decide to divorce her in the end. I will simply say this. If she is not willing to do *everything* to save her marriage then she is not all in. And if she, as the cheating spouse is not all in why should Matt even consider giving her another chance?


----------



## Doc Who

Folks, maybe Matt is looking forward to the separation? Just saying, he needs some distance from her to do serious thinking. Maybe, just maybe, this is the break from her that he needs to put some things in perspective, one way or another.

Seriously. He wents from a "wife" that pledged her eternal soul and body to a 21 year old pot head loser, to one that seemingly is capable of (at least) doing things an authentic wife should be willing to do. All within a matter of a day or so of her being dumped by the boy. Matt's head and heart must be tearing each other apart. Not seeing her for three weeks or so is just the ticket to chart his future course.


----------



## JCD

Well, that is making lemonade out of lemons...but you could be right.


----------



## Wazza

JCD said:


> Thank you for the compliment.
> 
> But I am one of the people who see the affair as a mere symptom of the fact that she has constantly set her relationships on a far *FAR* lower plane than her work. Consciously or not, she diminished them, dragging her 'life' (which was her work) into her house. Actors, drama, her plans, sets and even her zombie like frame when she finally deigned to allow Doc recharge her batteries at home...so she could be fresh, vital, creative and engaged...for a applauding bunch of well dressed strangers. Nope, none of that to be reserved for Matt. He's running crew...at best. No parties for him.
> 
> So CJ was just the cherry on the top of the sundae that she served her family in ample helpings...and that brown stuff wasn't chocolate.
> 
> Unless she shows a hell of a lot of willing with boundaries, reserving all that good time talent for her family FIRST, I think the theater should go.
> 
> Or keep it. But the cost will be her family. That doesn't make her a horrible person...except maybe to her husband and child, but if she isn't suited for the role of mother, pretending she is one is much worse, imo.
> 
> But she wants to try to keep both. Good luck with that.


I don't see anything in your posts that contradicts anything in mine. Do you?


----------



## bfree

Doc Who said:


> Folks, maybe Matt is looking forward to the separation? Just saying, he needs some distance from her to do serious thinking. Maybe, just maybe, this is the break from her that he needs to put some things in perspective, one way or another.
> 
> Seriously. He wents from a "wife" that pledged her eternal soul and body to a 21 year old pot head loser, to one that seemingly is capable of (at least) doing things an authentic wife should be willing to do. All within a matter of a day or so of her being dumped by the boy. Matt's head and heart must be tearing each other apart. Not seeing her for three weeks or so is just the ticket to chart his future course.


I would agree with you but for one thing. Matt has said that he is leaning toward divorce. Its still an open question for him. The door is slightly ajar. That means that part of him still loves her. And it is that part of him that will trigger like crazy when she is gone. And I believe that in self defense he will bury or kill that part of him that still loves her in order to stop the triggering. At that point its game over for Mrs M and their marriage.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> I would agree with you but for one thing. Matt has said that he is leaning toward divorce. Its still an open question for him. The door is slightly ajar. That means that part of him still loves her. And it is that part of him that will trigger like crazy when she is gone. And I believe that in self defense he will bury or kill that part of him that still loves her in order to stop the triggering. At that point its game over for Mrs M and their marriage.


If he is going to do that he is going to do that, IMO. If not now then another time.

It is very early days.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> If he is going to do that he is going to do that, IMO. If not now then another time.
> 
> It is very early days.


Exactly. She has not had enough time to assuage his fears and rebuild trust enough to go on this trip. What is her track record recently? Not good. If she had several months of being trustworthy and demonstrating remorse then maybe. But now? No way! If I were Matt I would be wondering right now if she hasn't already contacted CJ and told him to meet her in her hotel. I'm not saying she did that but if I were in Matt's shoes that thought is foremost in my mind.


----------



## bfree

Think of it this way Wazza. An athlete gets injured. He goes on injured reserve for a while and doesn't play. He rests. After some time off he comes back and plays again. He's not totally healed but he's healed enough to withstand the bumps and bruises of everyday play. Matt is not healed enough to withstand these bumps and bruises. JMO YMMV


----------



## Coffee Amore

JCD said:


> Okay, I'm going to give you a free bit of advice because I like you and I actually, for stupid reasons, think you are sincere.
> 
> 1) You find a woman who Matt trusts: his mom, his sister, his cousin, a young actress of probity and morality(if you know any...none you know has shown any so far) and you BEG them to come with you. You sell the hell out of that performance. You pay for their food, their transport, their time, whatever. And you glue them to your side.
> 
> Because there will be men there. And seeing what crappy morality theater people have (they are famous for it. Do I need to tell you what 'actress' meant in Elizibethan England? How about 'Lothario'?), you need a chaperone. Not a cell phone. Not a couple of texts a day: a chaperone. You glue her to your side.
> 
> You leave your laptop at home. Laptops have skype. Skype means you will be dropping your knickers for CJ as soon as you get to a WiFi hotspot. No, not really, but do you want Matt to think that? I would also suggest the dumbest phucking phone on the planet. Think tin cans and string.
> 
> Okay, maybe you can't do that. Here is a Voice Activated Recorder. It has enough memory to record 536 hours of recordings. Coincidently, that is 3.1 weeks.
> 
> Turn it on. Leave it on. Replace the batteries religiously. No, Matt won't listen to every single word you say. But 1) it will make you frigging mindful of what you say (and you probably need it) and 2) he CAN go back and listen to what was said if there is a recording. Yes, Matt will say this isn't necessary. *DON'T BELIEVE HIM!* Right now, there are almost NO efforts you can make which are too excessive to regain even a scrap of trust.
> 
> If he isn't concerned...he doesn't care...and that's not good. MAKE him start to believe he CAN care again!
> 
> 
> You NEVER EVER be alone with a man. Not for a second. Not just for a brief conversation. Not even if you need to ream out a prima donna actor in private. That ship has sailed. You make this plain because actors are scumbags. They go into acting to hit on women...and make money. But the women are more reliably available than the money (QED)
> 
> Yes, this was said in a painful way, but frankly, as a woman, I can't believe you are falling for Matt's sh!t test and believing his WORDS.
> 
> His heart thinks he's second place AGAIN. I believe it and you didn't crap all over me.


These are great ideas. It's too bad that Mrs. M couldn't have thought of ideas like this on her own. THAT would have been a big sign of the heavy lifting she has to regain trust. It's nice you pointed out ways she could have the trip and still provide a measure of accountability to her husband, but at this point she needs to think of these things on her own. If she plans to do the trip, she should have spent a lot of time figuring out how she will reassure her BH.


----------



## dogman

JCD said:


> Okay, I'm going to give you a free bit of advice because I like you and I actually, for stupid reasons, think you are sincere.
> 
> 1) You find a woman who Matt trusts: his mom, his sister, his cousin, a young actress of probity and morality(if you know any...none you know has shown any so far) and you BEG them to come with you. You sell the hell out of that performance. You pay for their food, their transport, their time, whatever. And you glue them to your side.
> 
> Because there will be men there. And seeing what crappy morality theater people have (they are famous for it. Do I need to tell you what 'actress' meant in Elizibethan England? How about 'Lothario'?), you need a chaperone. Not a cell phone. Not a couple of texts a day: a chaperone. You glue her to your side.
> 
> You leave your laptop at home. Laptops have skype. Skype means you will be dropping your knickers for CJ as soon as you get to a WiFi hotspot. No, not really, but do you want Matt to think that? I would also suggest the dumbest phucking phone on the planet. Think tin cans and string.
> 
> Okay, maybe you can't do that. Here is a Voice Activated Recorder. It has enough memory to record 536 hours of recordings. Coincidently, that is 3.1 weeks.
> 
> Turn it on. Leave it on. Replace the batteries religiously. No, Matt won't listen to every single word you say. But 1) it will make you frigging mindful of what you say (and you probably need it) and 2) he CAN go back and listen to what was said if there is a recording. Yes, Matt will say this isn't necessary. *DON'T BELIEVE HIM!* Right now, there are almost NO efforts you can make which are too excessive to regain even a scrap of trust.
> 
> If he isn't concerned...he doesn't care...and that's not good. MAKE him start to believe he CAN care again!
> 
> 
> You NEVER EVER be alone with a man. Not for a second. Not just for a brief conversation. Not even if you need to ream out a prima donna actor in private. That ship has sailed. You make this plain because actors are scumbags. They go into acting to hit on women...and make money. But the women are more reliably available than the money (QED)
> 
> Yes, this was said in a painful way, but frankly, as a woman, I can't believe you are falling for Matt's sh!t test and believing his WORDS.
> 
> His heart thinks he's second place AGAIN. I believe it and you didn't crap all over me.


Do this. This is a great idea.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Think of it this way Wazza. An athlete gets injured. He goes on injured reserve for a while and doesn't play. He rests. After some time off he comes back and plays again. He's not totally healed but he's healed enough to withstand the bumps and bruises of everyday play. Matt is not healed enough to withstand these bumps and bruises. JMO YMMV


He actually beat me to it over in his thread. Her time away is time for him to process stuff. It's part of the healing.

I didn't have that, my wife stayed home. So I went out. Didn't come home after work, threw myself into my career 24/7.

Time apart to process is not always bad and does not preclude reconciliation. In fact I believe it helps it.


----------



## Acabado

I went out a lot since the moment I put on hold the D. For half a year at least. The period I was not still commited to R. I just needed it.


----------



## bfree

Acabado said:


> I went out a lot since the moment I put on hold the D. For half a year at least. The period I was not still commited to R. I just needed it.


The difference is that both you and Wazza could pop home at any time and check on your wives if you needed to. You knew it and they knew it. In this case Mrs M will be quite a long way away from Matt. There is no way for him to just pop in and say hi, especially when he will be taking care of their child while she's gone. He knows it and she knows it. The mind movies will be on fast forward and stereo.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> He actually beat me to it over in his thread. Her time away is time for him to process stuff. It's part of the healing.
> 
> I didn't have that, my wife stayed home. So I went out. Didn't come home after work, threw myself into my career 24/7.
> 
> Time apart to process is not always bad and does not preclude reconciliation. In fact I believe it helps it.


No, part of the healing is having the one that hurt you there to comfort you when you trigger not abandon you when the wounds are still fresh.


----------



## Acabado

bfree said:


> The difference is that both you and Wazza could pop home at any time and check on your wives if you needed to. You knew it and they knew it. In this case Mrs M will be quite a long way away from Matt. There is no way for him to just pop in and say hi, especially when he will be taking care of their child while she's gone. He knows it and she knows it. The mind movies will be on fast forward and stereo.


I can't speak for Wazza. In my case there was no chance in hell she'd restart the affair or start a new one. Even if she did that was the last of my worries. I just needed to heal.


----------



## bfree

Acabado said:


> I can't speak for Wazza. In my case there was no chance in hell she'd restart the affair or start a new one. Even if she did that was the last of my worries. I just needed to heal.


But in the early stages when the mind movies were at their worst could you have healed if you and she were separated for long periods of time? Wouldn't you have had thoughts that she was possibly betraying you if she were away?

Matt has already stated that he believes if the OM came back she might reengage with him. If she is off in another city how much will that wreak havoc with his psyche?


----------



## Acabado

bfree said:


> But in the early stages when the mind movies were at their worst could you have healed if you and she were separated for long periods of time? Wouldn't you have had thoughts that she was possibly betraying you if she were away?


I must be a weird betrayed. I was the one who one in a while left for the weekend putting the phone off. Is she were to cheat again (and honestly I didn't believe it) there was nothing I could do about it. I'd eventually catch her.


> Matt has already stated that he believes if the OM came back she might reengage with him. If she is off in another city how much will that wreak havoc with his psyche?


It's going to be hard for him that's for sure. I hope he manages to swim this just fine. From what I know the initial idea was separation anyway. Don't know what motivated the actual situation.


----------



## Acabado

End of T/J


----------



## bfree

Acabado said:


> I must be a weird betrayed. I was the one who one in a while left for the weekend putting the phone off. Is she were to cheat again (and honestly I didn't believe it) there was nothing I could do about it. I'd eventually catch her. It's going to be hard for him that's for sure. I hope he manages to swim this just fine. From what I know the initial idea was separation anyway. Don't know what motivated the actual situation.


Yes they were going to separate at one time but I think they changed their minds. But even a separation would be local. Not separated by hundreds of miles. I think that's going to put such a strain that it will be over before she returns.

BTW, this isn't a thread jack. Its very relevant topically.


----------



## JCD

Coffee Amore said:


> These are great ideas. It's too bad that Mrs. M couldn't have thought of ideas like this on her own. THAT would have been a big sign of the heavy lifting she has to regain trust. It's nice you pointed out ways she could have the trip and still provide a measure of accountability to her husband, but at this point she needs to think of these things on her own. If she plans to do the trip, she should have spent a lot of time figuring out how she will reassure her BH.


Thank you. It's a gift.

Frankly, if she is dismissive of ideas like this (there are probably other ways to go about this) and I were Matt, I'd cut her loose.

See...anyyone can SAY they would do anything to fix X problem. But when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road and turn over those passwords/texts, give a pass on that GNO, put on that GPS bracelet, quit that toxic toxic job...um...I mean forgo a trip...suddenly it's inconvienient and unnecessary.

Sorry, the cheater doesn't get to arbitrate what is 'necessary'. She only gets to select what she is willing to put up with...because she has a "Get Out of Marriage" card.


Unless Matt really doesn't care.


----------



## Will_Kane

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It does have to be me. It is a small company and I have been contracted for a year. In addition, i teach a class at the college that is tied to this. so in essence, i am doubly contracted. i will be alone the first 10 days and then my parents and son will be joinng me. *If I had been injured in a car accident or the like, it is possible that the production would have been canceled and the company would be out what it had invested so far. * Matt and I talked about this several times over the last month and he has always said that he wants me to do it and do well. I HAVE cancelled all future contracts that require travel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This made me laugh.

If the President dies, there is a replacement. If a teacher gets hit by a bus, there is a replacement. But you have such unique talents, there is NO replacing for you? No one else can fill in, you are the ONLY one qualified to do the job? Like Santa Claus, Christmas isn't coming without you?


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> The difference is that both you and Wazza could pop home at any time and check on your wives if you needed to. You knew it and they knew it. In this case Mrs M will be quite a long way away from Matt. There is no way for him to just pop in and say hi, especially when he will be taking care of their child while she's gone. He knows it and she knows it. The mind movies will be on fast forward and stereo.


My wife's affair partner was a tutor at her college course. She continued to study there, and had she continued the affair and gone underground she had ample opportunity.

I simply didn't trust her. For over a decade, I was there for the kids. 

I suspect if I had access to the sort of information available on TAM, the whole process would have been a lot faster. 

The bottom line for me is (1) she has convinced me that she is a good risk, though not perfect, and (2) I love her. Shaggy was on Matt's thread talking about how Matt should be now looking for the next Mrs Mathias. That's all very well, but what do you do when the b1tch who ripped your heart out is still your best friend and the one you want? It's not like hiring someone to mow your lawns or something.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> No, part of the healing is having the one that hurt you there to comfort you when you trigger not abandon you when the wounds are still fresh.


I didn't want her comfort at that time.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> I must be a weird betrayed. I was the one who one in a while left for the weekend putting the phone off. Is she were to cheat again (and honestly I didn't believe it) there was nothing I could do about it. I'd eventually catch her.


If you are weird I am too. 

I still trust but verify.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It does have to be me. It is a small company and I have been contracted for a year. In addition, i teach a class at the college that is tied to this. so in essence, i am doubly contracted. i will be alone the first 10 days and then my parents and son will be joinng me. If I had been injured in a car accident or the like, it is possible that the production would have been canceled and the company would be out what it had invested so far. Matt and I talked about this several times over the last month and he has always said that he wants me to do it and do well. I HAVE cancelled all future contracts that require travel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well now. You were in the conversations, we were not, and I bought what you said, until I read Will's post.

Supposing the two of you talk about it this way....if Matt said to you. "If you go, it's over, don't come back. I don't care about the company. Not my problem." ...what would you do. 

I think it would make a big difference if you weren't alone the first ten days. Your parents know the situation and want to save your marriage. Can they be there the whole time somehow to chaperone you? If you were one of my kids in that position I would certainly try to say yes to such a request.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It does have to be me. It is a small company and I have been contracted for a year. In addition, i teach a class at the college that is tied to this. so in essence, i am doubly contracted. i will be alone the first 10 days and then my parents and son will be joinng me. If I had been injured in a car accident or the like, it is possible that the production would have been canceled and the company would be out what it had invested so far. * Matt and I talked about this several times over the last month and he has always said that he wants me to do it and do well.* I HAVE cancelled all future contracts that require travel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...did you TRY to find an understudy...was the money they fronted you already spent? Did you write this play and only you can produce this?

Or is this a 'Matt will just have to understand that I have these other obligations'? Cause if it's the last, I'm not terribly sympathetic.

Here is one thing that you just don't seem to understand. For the last year, Matt has 'gone along' with your work schedule and said 'Okay...fine...whatever'. He called you on a few things.

So HE WAS SAYING HE WAS OKAY WITH THIS WORK...but he's not! He said on his thread that you robbed him of a wife because every f*cking other person in your life was more important.

So...I could give a rat's ass about TRAVEL. What are you doing about cutting back on your work schedule PERIOD?

While I think you should give serious thought to quitting your job, that fiscal hit won't help your family. I CERTAINLY think that anything outside of basic work needs to get tossed to the wayside. I don't care if it's community theater just down the road. 

Your husband, for whatever reason, likes *having you near him*. STAY NEAR HIM! Not in the same town. Not in the same state. NEAR HIM!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks for all the perspectives on this and good suggestions. Matt and I talked again yesterday. I have arranged for a mutually agreeable female chaperone to travel with me until my parents arrive, and potentially stay through the performance. I had already planned on NOT taking the laptop. I'll also get the recommended voice recorder. Lastly, I'm asking Matt to change my iTunes password before I go, so I can't add any programs/apps to my phone while I am there. I do need that as a bare minimum for communications with my online students and school after the semester begins while I am away. I have a day off in the middle of the rehearsals, and will be driving back to spend it with Matt.

Regarding the necessity of it being me... I am not a performer with an understudy. I am the director. The entire show is on me. It's a show that is very rarely done, so there are only a handful of directors worldwide that would have it prepared and in their repertoire. And frankly, none of them would do it at short notice for the amount the company is able to pay. Breaking my contract doesn't just mean I am out what the company would pay me. It means 50 choristers, 50 orchestra members, 10 principals, scenic designers, stagehands, costume designers, and stage mangers are suddenly unemployed too. It means tens of thousands of dollars have been spent building sets and costumes that won't be used. It means hundreds of season and single ticket holders need to be refunded. It means irreparably damaging the reputation of the company by cancelling their season opening production. The amount the company could sue me for as breech of contract is astronomical and would bankrupt me, and I think by extension Matt since we are still legally married. I am not Santa Claus, but I work in a very specialized field and this show is unusual within that.

He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.

Regarding future commitments, I have already cleared my schedule of all outside contracts for the rest of the year, and have no plans to accept any future offers. I also am working with my colleagues to minimize my workload at school so I can have a more predictable schedule through the spring. I KNOW that I need better balance with my work and family. I am making those changes as quickly as I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Coffee Amore said:


> These are great ideas. It's too bad that Mrs. M couldn't have thought of ideas like this on her own. THAT would have been a big sign of the heavy lifting she has to regain trust. It's nice you pointed out ways she could have the trip and still provide a measure of accountability to her husband, but at this point she needs to think of these things on her own. If she plans to do the trip, she should have spent a lot of time figuring out how she will reassure her BH.


This type of thinking and coming up with possible solutions is still really new to me. I had thought of some things to implement on my own, but I also believe in asking for help if needed. I'd like to think that little by little I am learning better what to do on my own, and hope that my looking for resources to fill in the gaps could also be seen as a desire to do the heavy lifting needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks for all the perspectives on this and good suggestions. Matt and I talked again yesterday. I have arranged for a mutually agreeable female chaperon to travel with me until my parents arrive, and potentially stay through the performance. I had already planned on NOT taking the laptop. I'll also get the recommended voice recorder. Lastly, I'm asking Matt to change my iTunes password before I go, so I can't add any programs/apps to my phone while I am there. I do need that as a bare minimum for communications with my online students and school after the semester begins while I am away. I have a day off in the middle of the rehearsals, and will be driving back to spend it with Matt.
> 
> Regarding the necessity of it being me... I am not a performer with an understudy. I am the director. The entire show is on me. It's a show that is very rarely done, so there are only a handful of directors worldwide that would have it prepared and in their repertoire. And frankly, none of them would do it at short notice for the amount the company is able to pay. Breaking my contract doesn't just mean I am out what the company would pay me. It means 50 choristers, 50 orchestra members, 10 principals, scenic designers, stagehands, costume designers, and stage mangers are suddenly unemployed too. It means tens of thousands of dollars have been spent building sets and costumes that won't be used. It means hundreds of season and single ticket holders need to be refunded. It means irreparably damaging the reputation of the company by cancelling their season opening production. The amount the company could sue me for as breech of contract is astronomical and would bankrupt me, and I think by extension Matt since we are still legally married. I am not Santa Claus, but I work in a very specialized field and this show is unusual within that.
> 
> He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.
> 
> Regarding future commitments, I have already cleared my schedule of all outside contracts for the rest of the year, and have no plans to accept any future offers. I also am working with my colleagues to minimize my workload at school so I can have a more predictable schedule through the spring. I KNOW that I need better balance with my work and family. I am making those changes as quickly as I can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its good that you will have a chaperone and are taking some other precautions. Maybe that will be enough to ease Matt's mind. He is an incredibly strong man to go through what he's already gone through but this still might be too much. I do want to suggest to you that you do indeed have a choice here. Yes many people will be out of work and money but your loyalty is to Matt, not them. They should not be a consideration in your mind at all. You should be willing to move heaven and earth to help Matt heal and cause him no further pain. The fate and disposition of others should not be higher on your list of priorities than Matt, your child and your marriage. There is one avenue that maybe you have not considered and I mention it not to poke fun or insult you in any way. You mentioned that if you were in some sort of accident they would have to cancel. And I doubt that in that case they company would hold you liable. I am going to suggest that you have your therapist declare you not competent enough to travel and put on this show. With all that has gone on recently and your irresponsible behavior its not that much of a stretch is it? That way you don't have to go, you can continue to focus on your family and Matt does not suffer anymore pain. Would it mean many people being disappointed and suffering financially. Yes I guess so. But you weren't thinking of them or anyone else when you engaged in your affair were you? Would it probably mean the end of your career? I imagine it would, yes. But is your career worth more than your marriage?

And let me add one other thing. You are supposed to do the heavy lifting. You even started a thread asking what that means. This is one very good example. You need to anticipate Matt's triggers and try to prevent them in any way you can. This would have been a great opportunity to show you are prepared to do the heavy lifting necessary to save your marriage. You blew it. And now you cling to the words "He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had." Do you think he really knows all that he needs and wants? Could you verbalize your needs with a whole in your chest where your heart used to be? I'm sorry but this statement is cowardly and once again you are putting the burden on Matt to repair the damage YOU caused. Matt probably won't tell you this because he still loves you. I on the other hand do not love you so I say for Matt....how dare you!


----------



## Chaparral

*He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.*

This may be the most ironic paragraph I have ever seen here.

Particularly, "He has never once hesitated regarding my job" and yet you told him he did not get how it was to be a part of a theater company. From what I read, this attitude is what got you here, alienating him from your circle, then tossing him out of your personal life as well and having your needs met by someone with in the group.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, distance may make the heart grow fonder, it may also provide a chance to see how much better things can be without the source of agony.


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> BTW, distance may make the heart grow fonder, it may also provide a chance to see how much better things can be without the source of agony.


Yep, out of sight, out of mind.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

chapparal said:


> *He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.*
> 
> This may be the most ironic paragraph I have ever seen here.
> 
> Particularly, "He has never once hesitated regarding my job" and yet you told him he did not get how it was to be a part of a theater company. From what I read, this attitude is what got you here, alienating him from your circle, then tossing him out of your personal life as well and having your needs met by someone with in the group.



I did tell Matt he "didn't get it" in an argument we had. (One of very few over our lifetime.) I was very upset and emotional over losing an essential cast member of a production that had the opportunity to compete for national awards... Akin to a bowl game or the like for a sports team, I suppose. He made a comment about wondering why I was so upset and I replied with the aforementioned comment. It was more hurtful to him than I ever intended. That happens in arguments. There are certainly things he has also said over the years that have hurt me more than he ever meant them to. That's what happens when you fight with someone you love. That comment is just one of a myriad of things I would take back if I could.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> *He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.*
> 
> This may be the most ironic paragraph I have ever seen here.
> 
> Particularly, "He has never once hesitated regarding my job" and yet you told him he did not get how it was to be a part of a theater company. From what I read, this attitude is what got you here, alienating him from your circle, then tossing him out of your personal life as well and having your needs met by someone with in the group.


She obviously doesn't even bother to read what Matt has written. If she did she would see how conflicted he really is. While he may not have come straight out and said he wants her to quit her job and not travel for this project all his posts point to that need. She is oblivious when it comes to anything that does not benefit her agenda. It has all been words up to this point. I still see very little action. Matt should divorce her if her own selfishness blinds her to what is staring her right in the face.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I did tell Matt he "didn't get it" in an argument we had. (One of very few over our lifetime.) I was very upset and emotional over losing an essential cast member of a production that had the opportunity to compete for national awards... Akin to a bowl game or the like for a sports team, I suppose. He made a comment about wondering why I was so upset and I replied with the aforementioned comment. It was more hurtful to him than I ever intended. That happens in arguments. There are certainly things he has also said over the years that have hurt me more than he ever meant them to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you said is not a comment, its part of a theme.


----------



## BjornFree

bfree said:


> She obviously doesn't even bother to read what Matt has written. If she did she would see how conflicted he really is. While he may not have come straight out and said he wants her to quit her job and not travel for this project all his posts point to that need. She is oblivious when it comes to anything that does not benefit her agenda. It has all been words up to this point. I still see very little action. Matt should divorce her if her own selfishness blinds her to what is staring her right in the face.


I'm usually the densest person on the planet but even I can see how conflicted he is about the whole thing and for a WW that's a golden window of opportunity to do the "heavy lifting", sadly she either doesn't want reconciliation wholeheartedly or isn't capable of stepping up to the plate.


----------



## JCD

BjornFree said:


> sadly she either doesn't want reconciliation wholeheartedly or isn't capable of stepping up to the plate.



Um...no. She doesn't want this to happen:



> Breaking my contract doesn't just mean I am out what the company would pay me. It means 50 choristers, 50 orchestra members, 10 principals, scenic designers, stagehands, costume designers, and stage mangers are suddenly unemployed too. It means tens of thousands of dollars have been spent building sets and costumes that won't be used. It means hundreds of season and single ticket holders need to be refunded. It means irreparably damaging the reputation of the company by cancelling their season opening production.


Or this to happen:



> The amount the company could sue me for as breech of contract is astronomical and would bankrupt me, and I think by extension Matt since we are still legally married. I am not Santa Claus, but I work in a very specialized field and this show is unusual within that.


These are legitimate reasons. It still might damage an already weak marriage, but...as she said, there are no good choices.

Damage control is the best that can happen.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Regarding the necessity of it being me... I am not a performer with an understudy. I am the director. The entire show is on me. It's a show that is very rarely done, so there are only a handful of directors worldwide that would have it prepared and in their repertoire.


I understand that. But...don't you have an assistant you could rely on to...oops...sorry, he moved away. I mean _another_ assistant director? It's just a question. They might have been able to step up to the plate finally. But the choice is made.




> He has never once hesitated regarding my job and this trip in particular, even over the last 5 weeks. Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had. I am 3 hours away, but if Matt was having a bad night and would allow it, I would drive back at the drop of a hat to be with him for a few hours and return for rehearsals the next day. I know that people always have a choice - sometimes none of them are good choices. But Matt is telling me I don't need to consider one of those choices. I trust him and know that I'm doing everything I can to handle the situation as it evolves.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but Matt SUCKS at standing up for himself to you (though that might have changed) and you have a history of absolutely sucking at reading his emotional needs.

Have you forgotten the 'zombie wife' conversation? He supported you that entire time too...and look where it lead. He has a lot of resentment over this that I dont' think he's touched on yet because his 'resent-o-matic' still has back orders of resentment about CJ the Adulterer.

To wit, let's look at CJ. The guy who c*ckblocked your husband in his own house. The guy whom your husband accused of being 'too close to you'.

That guy. The one you thought it was a BRILLIANT idea for THIS guy...to HOUSESIT FOR YOU AFTER THE ACCUSATION! (Yes, not your finest moment...Fog...I get it)

I bet Matt said "Doh...okay" even though quite likely inside he would emotionally rather take a cheese grater to his own penis than have that man in his house, because he a) didn't want to appear a jealous ass and b) couldn't think of a rational reason to oppose it. Matt doesn't seem to be one to appeal to emotion (Matt...if you are reading this, it's okay to say 'He's an arrogant ass and I hate him. So I'll be keelhauled before I let him in my house again')

And I bet you thought Matt was A-Okay with him housesitting just because his 'words' were convienient. Because it was easier. Just like this.

So think very hard about that 'sincerity' thing.



> Regarding future commitments, I have already cleared my schedule of all outside contracts for the rest of the year, and have no plans to accept any future offers. I also am working with my colleagues to minimize my workload at school so I can have a more predictable schedule through the spring. I KNOW that I need better balance with my work and family. I am making those changes as quickly as I can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a start.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just as I have to trust him to tell me whether he wants me close or away while I am here, I have to trust his sincerity in the conversations we've had.


I get where some people come from talking about "reading" Matt's needs, anticipate... I think it's a good start. You must trust his words, asume nothing, show respect to his decisions, trust his own discernment and thought process.
"Fighting" for the marriage, while evoke "war" must be done from respect and humility.
Timing for this sucks. Limit the damage my meeting his needs while it's done.
People her is right telling you you need to learn to be more selfless, to think how your decisions impact Matt and your marriage, short/mid/long term and study closely your priorities from now on.


A complete different questions. Asuming you comply with your part you know damm well sooner than later OM will reach out, to "know how you are doing it"... whatever, even using third parties. Do you have a plan? Have you imagined the different scenarios? I mean a plan you can write whith if he calls to my phone I will hang up and immediately call Matt, or I will tell him to f0ck off and call Matt... If a mutual friend talk about him I'll... if he does X I will do Y. 

Kepp hanging there.


----------



## Wazza

JCD said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Matt SUCKS at standing up for himself to you (though that might have changed) and you have a history of absolutely sucking at reading his emotional needs.
> 
> Have you forgotten the 'zombie wife' conversation? He supported you that entire time too...and look where it lead. He has a lot of resentment over this that I dont' think he's touched on yet because his 'resent-o-matic' still has back orders of resentment about CJ the Adulterer.
> 
> To wit, let's look at CJ. The guy who c*ckblocked your husband in his own house. The guy whom your husband accused of being 'too close to you'.
> 
> That guy. The one you thought it was a BRILLIANT idea for THIS guy...to HOUSESIT FOR YOU AFTER THE ACCUSATION! (Yes, not your finest moment...Fog...I get it)
> 
> I bet Matt said "Doh...okay" even though quite likely inside he would emotionally rather take a cheese grater to his own penis than have that man in his house, because he a) didn't want to appear a jealous ass and b) couldn't think of a rational reason to oppose it. Matt doesn't seem to be one to appeal to emotion (Matt...if you are reading this, it's okay to say 'He's an arrogant ass and I hate him. So I'll be keelhauled before I let him in my house again')
> 
> And I bet you thought Matt was A-Okay with this. Because it was easier. Just like this.


Definitely something you guys should be discussing.

Personally I think Matt has been amazing. It will be incredibly sad if you appreciate just how strong the man you married is, right at the point where the marriage ends.


----------



## JCD

Acabado said:


> A complete different questions. Asuming you comply with your part you know damm well sooner than later OM will reach out, to "know how you are doing it"... whatever, even using third parties. Do you have a plan? Have you imagined the different scenarios? I mean a plan you can write whith if he calls to my phone I will hang up and immediately call Matt, or I will tell him to f0ck off and call Matt... If a mutual friend talk about him I'll... if he does X I will do Y.



That's a no brainer. If it's HIM, she hangs up and calls Matt. Offers the phone. Shows the message. (My wife refuses to look at any of that stuff the few times I got anything)

If she suspects that some forum poster or unknown emailer is trying to solicit contact and is him, she reports her suspicions to Matt.

If it's a third party saying "Hey...I saw CJ and he was asking about you..." The response is simple "Never mention him to me again or I'll stop talking to you too." Then you tell Matt.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I don't have an assistant director. This company is too small to hire them. There is a stage manager, but that is a totally different type of position.

I am working on really reading Matt and trying not to put him in any position where he could do something for ME. Every decision that I make, every option on the table for the past five weeks is immediately disregarded if there is something for me vs. Matt in it. I can't undo past actions or commitments but I can make sure I don't choose any future path that isn't in line with what my family's needs are. So for example, I cannot become a SAHM because my family's finances couldn't support that sacrifice. But I can minimize my workload and late hours as much as possible to still adequately perform my job AND be home with Matt and my son. And I can look for a different job that would have the potential for less time investiture.

Regarding planning for OM or other NC individuals to resurface, if he contacts me and Matt is available, I will immediately give him the phone/computer to deal with him as he sees fit. If Matt is not around, I will immediately hang up and call Matt and give him the contact number used, if known. Any e-correspondence will be forwarded directly to Matt. As third parties discuss him with me ( which so far has been in an unaware manner - not someone passing me a message) I tell them that I have no contact with OM any more and not to talk about him with me. If it is an adult, I have been acknowledging the affair, Matt's pain, and my efforts to eliminate any aspect of that from my future life. If it is a student, I provide no details and just leave it as is. I have reported all conversations like that to Matt, and have discussed his preferences in advance if I know I will be seeing someone who is likely to bring up OM. If OM were to physically show up, I would immediately remove myself from the environment and go straight to where Matt is, or a safe zone where I could call Matt and OM couldn't follow. I feel secure in the plans/efforts we are making, but would welcome any additional ideas or potential holes I have missed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't have an assistant director. This company is too small to hire them. There is a stage manager, but that is a totally different type of position.
> 
> I am working on really reading Matt and trying not to put him in any position where he could do something for ME. Every decision that I make, every option on the table for the past five weeks is immediately disregarded if there is something for me vs. Matt in it. I can't undo past actions or commitments but I can make sure I don't choose any future path that isn't in line with what my family's needs are. So for example, I cannot become a SAHM because my family's finances couldn't support that sacrifice. But I can minimize my workload and late hours as much as possible to still adequately perform my job AND be home with Matt and my son. And I can look for a different job that would have the potential for less time investiture.
> 
> Regarding planning for OM or other NC individuals to resurface, if he contacts me and Matt is available, I will immediately give him the phone/computer to deal with him as he sees fit. If Matt is not around, I will immediately hang up and call Matt and give him the contact number used, if known. Any e-correspondence will be forwarded directly to Matt. As third parties discuss him with me ( which so far has been in an unaware manner - not someone passing me a message) I tell them that I have no contact with OM any more and not to talk about him with me. If it is an adult, I have been acknowledging the affair, Matt's pain, and my efforts to eliminate any aspect of that from my future life. If it is a student, I provide no details and just leave it as is. I have reported all conversations like that to Matt, and have discussed his preferences in advance if I know I will be seeing someone who is likely to bring up OM. If OM were to physically show up, I would immediately remove myself from the environment and go straight to where Matt is, or a safe zone where I could call Matt and OM couldn't follow. I feel secure in the plans/efforts we are making, but would welcome any additional ideas or potential holes I have missed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All of this is fine to say but you are forgetting one major factor. Saying you'll do these things does not mean you will actually do them. You say that if the OM contacts you you will immediately let Matt know. However, why would Matt believe you will actually do so? You have not done this in the recent past right? You aren't exactly the most trustworthy person right now. I understand what you are saying about your job and your commitment. What you need to understand is that even though Matt has said he is ok with you going on the trip for example, he is going to picture you with the OM every night you are away. He will not be able to help himself. Its par for the course when you are the one who has been betrayed. You can say you will call Matt if the OM contacts you but he doesn't really trust you to do so. The only way you can rebuild that trust is to follow up your words with actions....repeatedly. Over time he may learn to trust you once again. But by putting yourself in positions that would potentially allow you to betray him again you are inviting him to trigger. It seems that you are determined to go on this trip. And Matt has said he is ok with it although I really do not believe that he truly is. I know you have taken some precautions but I see this three weeks period as a serious and potentially fatal blow to your marriage. What you are failing to consider is that Matt will not be able to see your face and watch your body language. When he does trigger, and he will, you will not be able to help him work through it. He will face these nightmares alone. Even if Matt doesn't decide to pull the plug during that 3 weeks I think the damage that will be done is going to manifest itself some time later and the end result will be the same. I hope you think its worth it because if I were in your shoes I wouldn't.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I actually have done this in the recent past. OM skyped me when Matt had my account open and he was at a neighbor's house. I texted him immediately, did not reply to OM, and Matt came home to deal with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I actually have done this in the recent past. OM skyped me when Matt had my account open and he was at a neighbor's house. I texted him immediately, did not reply to OM, and Matt came home to deal with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you did that once but the hundreds of times before that all through three or four D-Days and false reconciliation you didn't. There is quite an imbalance there yes? You need to do it more than once. You need to do it over and over and over and over until Matt has a positive track record to judge your actions on. And its not just notifying him when and if the OM contacts you. It is making sure you do not put yourself in position where the OM can contact you. Do you understand what I am saying here?

Mrs M, I have been very hard on you lately and I want you to know the reason. Less than a week ago you posted some things that I found to be extremely important and indicated to me that you were starting to get it. You also posted in another thread that you hoped one day to be able to say you and Matt reconciled. I responded to you both times because I started to believe that it would be possible for you to save your family. I really believed it. Especially when I started noticing that Matt was still emotionally invested in you. When Matt was angry in his posts you need to understand that it is part of the forgiveness process. He was not disconnected and emotionally distant. That gave me hope that you both could reconcile.

This trip changed all that for me. I went through something very similar in my first marriage. The circumstances were somewhat different in that she actually was cheating with the OM while away from me. But even before I knew that I can see looking back that I was shutting down emotionally due to constant triggering. I am extremely concerned and quite convinced that the same thing will happen to Matt and when you finally return you will be coming home to a man that has emotionally disconnected from you and is indifferent. You know what happens then right? I reiterate that I am very concerned about this trip despite any precautions you might take. I see this as a turning point and not a good one for you.


----------



## Acabado

> I actually have done this in the recent past. OM skyped me when Matt had my account open and he was at a neighbor's house. I texted him immediately, did not reply to OM, and Matt came home to deal with him.


Great job.
Consistence it what it takes to slowly regain increasing levels trust. 
Regaining trust after infidelity develop at different levels, some parts are easier to gain than others. The first one is basicaly to make your BS to believe or trust you are not making a fool of him anymore, that OM is out of the picture. I always feel shocked when the wayward, who is stating to want to restore trust, refuses transparence with basicaly means trust points for free. It seems you are doing a good job at it. Now, because well... with your false R you already blowed up that chance. So this part is going to be hard and you are going to need to be very patient and humble enough to accept the lack of trust for a good while. Until he believes it. No matter how long it takes.

Then we have more levels, the one in which he can really start believing you really love him, that you don't love OM anymore, that you are not buying time until a new OM, the right one, shows up... it will take even more time and your husband seeing the maths, that you are not parroting from books or acting (no pun intended). It will help him to allow himself to become vulnerable again.

The final level is to show him you have changed internally and infidelity is simply not a choice for YOU anymore, regardless the circunstances. He can relax and love fully you with no walls to protect himself.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

bfree said:


> So you did that once but the hundreds of times before that all through three or four D-Days and false reconciliation you didn't. There is quite an imbalance there yes? You need to do it more than once. You need to do it over and over and over and over until Matt has a positive track record to judge your actions on. And its not just notifying him when and if the OM contacts you. It is making sure you do not put yourself in position where the OM can contact you. Do you understand what I am saying here?
> 
> Mrs M, I have been very hard on you lately and I want you to know the reason. Less than a week ago you posted some things that I found to be extremely important and indicated to me that you were starting to get it. You also posted in another thread that you hoped one day to be able to say you and Matt reconciled. I responded to you both times because I started to believe that it would be possible for you to save your family. I really believed it. Especially when I started noticing that Matt was still emotionally invested in you. When Matt was angry in his posts you need to understand that it is part of the forgiveness process. He was not disconnected and emotionally distant. That gave me hope that you both could reconcile.
> 
> This trip changed all that for me. I went through something very similar in my first marriage. The circumstances were somewhat different in that she actually was cheating with the OM while away from me. But even before I knew that I can see looking back that I was shutting down emotionally due to constant triggering. I am extremely concerned and quite convinced that the same thing will happen to Matt and when you finally return you will be coming home to a man that has emotionally disconnected from you and is indifferent. You know what happens then right? I reiterate that I am very concerned about this trip despite any precautions you might take. I see this as a turning point and not a good one for you.


Bfree, I do appreciate your perspective and how hard you are being on me. I am VERY concerned about this trip. I hope my posts don't minimize that. BUT, I know Matt feels right now that he can't think clearly about what happened and how he feels with me around. I DON'T want Matt to stay with me because I "sucked him back in" (his words from the other night). But I need to know he is really willing to choose to work on this with me. I NEVER want him to look back on things and wish he'd taken a different path and feel like he couldn't make an informed decision. I desperately want to minimize his pain, to stay in close contact and show my love in a variety of ways. And also continue to show that I CAN make good decisions where OM is concerned. My anxiety level regarding this separation is extreme right now. But I have to face my obligations and respect Matt's wish for me to go and give him time to think. I will be chaperoned 24 hours a day. My phone will ALWAYS be answered, by myself or my chaperone if I absolutely cannot in that moment. I will stop rehearsals to speak to Matt unless I am on union time. I want so badly for Matt to miss me, to attend the show and be proud of what I've done there. Both of those are unlikely, if I am being really honest with myself. But Matt said to me today, if I bomb this show, I will really have destroyed EVERYTHING in my life for this affair. My marriage, my friendships, my professional abilities. I think I can get through the show successfully. I truly hope I can build a new relationship with Matt. The friendships are gone, but hopefully I can come through this time smarter about myself and others, more in touch with what is truly important to me, and knowing how to preserve and honor that. 

You'll forgive me, if I hope you are wrong and that Matt and I don't follow the path you and your XW suffered through. I WILL NOT allow the affair to resume. Not now, not ever. I hope Matt will communicate honestly with me over our separation about his pain and I can make good choices about driving back and forth and doing anything else I can to help with that. Anyone who wants to share positive energy or prayers for us would be greatly appreciated. We're not religious, but I have a spiritual side, and certainly prayers/good vibes never hurt anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

I see your remorse. 

I wish it was not so, but you made Matt pay tremendously during your affair.
I think it is a price that is too much of a debt to ever reclaim.
I have been on many sites. I have offered lots of advice. I have seen many scenarios over the many years I have been on these various forums from various websites.

The thing is it is hard, but not impossible, for men in particular to overcome this kind of disrespect.
You gave your heart, mind, body and even nearly your soul to CJ. He misused and abused all of those. They are tattered, torn and ruptured. They are not very good to behold and this is all you have to offer Matt.

He may never want that again, but there is always a chance he may in time.

I see your remorse, he does too.
But the price you made him pay for your affair will always overshadow that.
I am still skeptical of how remorseful you really are. I am skeptical of how good of an actress you may be..but for now..I see it


----------



## Mike11

Best of luck to you and Matt MrsM, I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping that the result of all this will work for you and Matt, I have been in your position before, although not under the same circumstances we had not had Cheating as part of our situation but a similarly difficult event that we both had to make very difficult choices, it was not easy, we are still working on things but it is getting better and I hope the same outcome for you and Matt


----------



## BjornFree

JCD said:


> Um...no. She doesn't want this to happen:
> 
> 
> 
> Or this to happen:
> 
> 
> 
> These are legitimate reasons. It still might damage an already weak marriage, but...as she said, there are no good choices.
> 
> Damage control is the best that can happen.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that. But...don't you have an assistant you could rely on to...oops...sorry, he moved away. I mean _another_ assistant director? It's just a question. They might have been able to step up to the plate finally. But the choice is made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Matt SUCKS at standing up for himself to you (though that might have changed) and you have a history of absolutely sucking at reading his emotional needs.
> 
> Have you forgotten the 'zombie wife' conversation? He supported you that entire time too...and look where it lead. He has a lot of resentment over this that I dont' think he's touched on yet because his 'resent-o-matic' still has back orders of resentment about CJ the Adulterer.
> 
> To wit, let's look at CJ. The guy who c*ckblocked your husband in his own house. The guy whom your husband accused of being 'too close to you'.
> 
> That guy. The one you thought it was a BRILLIANT idea for THIS guy...to HOUSESIT FOR YOU AFTER THE ACCUSATION! (Yes, not your finest moment...Fog...I get it)
> 
> I bet Matt said "Doh...okay" even though quite likely inside he would emotionally rather take a cheese grater to his own penis than have that man in his house, because he a) didn't want to appear a jealous ass and b) couldn't think of a rational reason to oppose it. Matt doesn't seem to be one to appeal to emotion (Matt...if you are reading this, it's okay to say 'He's an arrogant ass and I hate him. So I'll be keelhauled before I let him in my house again')
> 
> And I bet you thought Matt was A-Okay with him housesitting just because his 'words' were convienient. Because it was easier. Just like this.
> 
> So think very hard about that 'sincerity' thing.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a start.


No one wants to have to choose. But she did and she chose poorly. Al I'm saying is that if she goes, even with a chaperone, it is still going to affect Matt in a negative way. He may feel that time apart may do him some good but that simply isn't the case. Btw I'm not questioning her remorse only her resolve to make things right.

Look at it this way. What would happen if Matt demanded that you not go?


----------



## JCD

I think you've covered all the basic stuff. 


This trip IS coming at an awkward time, but both you and Matt can see how this is unavoidable. And frankly, he probably wants some seriousl cave time to lick his wounds. It's amazing how soul healing it is to walk around in one's underwear and have Co Co Puffs for dinner.

So...he let you back into the house. That's a huge first step. He asked you to be there, right?

Do NOT minimize the sacrifice to his self esteem, pride and self image this little f*cked up, tawdry affair was. You gave yourself body and soul to a KID for God's Sakes! One who has to work at a burger joint and live with his parents.

I almost want to reign in bfree for giving you too hard a time...and then I think of the facts on the ground and the lies you've continued to tell up till no one believed you any more.

Pain is instructive. Get full value for the tuition you are paying.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> I think you've covered all the basic stuff.
> 
> 
> This trip IS coming at an awkward time, but both you and Matt can see how this is unavoidable. And frankly, he probably wants some seriousl cave time to lick his wounds. It's amazing how soul healing it is to walk around in one's underwear and have Co Co Puffs for dinner.
> 
> So...he let you back into the house. That's a huge first step. He asked you to be there, right?
> 
> Do NOT minimize the sacrifice to his self esteem, pride and self image this little f*cked up, tawdry affair was. You gave yourself body and soul to a KID for God's Sakes! One who has to work at a burger joint and live with his parents.
> 
> I almost want to reign in bfree for giving you too hard a time...and then I think of the facts on the ground and the lies you've continued to tell up till no one believed you any more.
> 
> Pain is instructive. Get full value for the tuition you are paying.


JCD, you've reigned me in before. If you feel I'm being too hard on Mrs M please let me know. As I said in my posts I went through a very similar situation so I am feeling this a little more than maybe I should. I know the pain I endured and I am cringing when I think of Matt feeling that same pain. I will step back if you feel I am overly critical.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> No one wants to have to choose. But she did and she chose poorly. Al I'm saying is that if she goes, even with a chaperone, it is still going to affect Matt in a negative way. He may feel that time apart may do him some good but that simply isn't the case. Btw I'm not questioning her remorse only her resolve to make things right.
> 
> Look at it this way. What would happen if Matt demanded that you not go?


Why is time apart simply not good? For me it was essential. What is the argument you are making?

Remember, Matt is heading towards divorce right now, but two minded about it. Time to think has to be good.

I'm curious what would happen if Matt demanded MrsM not go as well.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Why is time apart simply not good? For me it was essential. What is the argument you are making?
> 
> Remember, Matt is heading towards divorce right now, but two minded about it. Time to think has to be good.
> 
> I'm curious what would happen if Matt demanded MrsM not go as well.


I can only speak for myself and others I have spoken to. When your spouse is not in the immediate vicinity the mind movies become extreme. You are constantly wondering what they are doing and who they are doing it with. Furthermore when I triggered I would have like to have someone there who would try to comfort me. If you read most of the reconciliation threads on TAM, the successful ones are when the WS is there reassuring the BS constantly when they trigger. Every time they are away from their spouse they trigger quite a bit. I think these are pretty common reactions. Frankly, while I can see the need for time alone once in a while, three weeks and several hundred miles away is IMO too much to handle for a fresh injury such as this.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> JCD, you've reigned me in before. If you feel I'm being too hard on Mrs M please let me know. As I said in my posts I went through a very similar situation so I am feeling this a little more than maybe I should. I know the pain I endured and I am cringing when I think of Matt feeling that same pain. I will step back if you feel I am overly critical.


Nah. Be yourself. She did a very crappy thing. But she is also doing the right things so far.

I wish she'd be a bit more proactive with thinking of them herself, but at least she seems to be listening to advice.

I also think she's a bit to accepting of Matt's WORDS vs. his DESIRES (to be fair, Matt doesn't seem to be holding a line on what he actually NEED from her). Because it's convienient.

"Do you mind if I go away for three weeks?"

"Sure!" <mutter mutter> second place again

And the other thing is he's so emotionally devestated that he probably doesn't KNOW what he wants at this point, so trusting his WORDS is as foolish as trusting the judgements of an alcoholic. His judgement is impaired right now.

So...her default position should be 'does this help my son and husband, yes/no?' If it's no, that's the answer. I don't give a rat's ass about her personal growth, her career or any of that stuff.

She says she is doing it. She humiliated herself by having a chaperone with her for this trip. She is putting herself voluntarily under Big Brother's gaze.

I think you are doing a bang up job sympathizing with Matt's plight. I think it might be better served to use your experiences to TELL HER what Matt needs (and so far, the answer doesn't seem to be 'a divorce yesterday' )

I think you could do that very well. How does she help Matt?


----------



## Chaparral

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39735-wayward-spouses-how-do-triggers-effect-you.html

The first link is from Beowulf. He successfully reconciled (as far as I can tell)with his WW. He was eventually banned. Many men who successfully reconciled have been hounded off of this site by the angry BSs. You really need to at least read his first post.

The second link is to a thread by allybabe_8. She is notorious for coming here, saying the right things and then joyiously (it seemed to me anyway) destroying her family to be the mistress of a married man.

3 weeks is a lifetime in this situation. Whatever you do your current plan needs to be modified. Can Mr. M take some time to be with you during this run. If he finds he can disconnect during this time, your son is going to be raised be co-parents.

Read Beowulf's (who we severely miss here) post. He describes the situation well but be assured it doesn't even come close to what Mr. M is going through simply because this cannot be expressed in words.


----------



## happyman64

chapparal said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39735-wayward-spouses-how-do-triggers-effect-you.html
> 
> The first link is from Beowulf. He successfully reconciled (as far as I can tell)with his WW. He was eventually banned. Many men who successfully reconciled have been hounded off of this site by the angry BSs. You really need to at least read his first post.
> 
> The second link is to a thread by allybabe_8. She is notorious for coming here, saying the right things and then joyiously (it seemed to me anyway) destroying her family to be the mistress of a married man.
> 
> 3 weeks is a lifetime in this situation. Whatever you do your current plan needs to be modified. Can Mr. M take some time to be with you during this run. If he finds he can disconnect during this time, your son is going to be raised be co-parents.
> 
> Read Beowulf's (who we severely miss here) post. He describes the situation well but be assured it doesn't even come close to what Mr. M is going through simply because this cannot be expressed in words.


:iagree:

I needed to 2nd that statement. Beowulf is sorely missed. He did much more good than bad. 

Sucks he was banned!!!!!

HM64


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Nah. Be yourself. She did a very crappy thing. But she is also doing the right things so far.
> 
> I wish she'd be a bit more proactive with thinking of them herself, but at least she seems to be listening to advice.
> 
> I also think she's a bit to accepting of Matt's WORDS vs. his DESIRES (to be fair, Matt doesn't seem to be holding a line on what he actually NEED from her). Because it's convenient.
> 
> "Do you mind if I go away for three weeks?"
> 
> "Sure!" <mutter mutter> second place again
> 
> And the other thing is he's so emotionally devastated that he probably doesn't KNOW what he wants at this point, so trusting his WORDS is as foolish as trusting the judgments of an alcoholic. His judgment is impaired right now.
> 
> So...her default position should be 'does this help my son and husband, yes/no?' If it's no, that's the answer. I don't give a rat's ass about her personal growth, her career or any of that stuff.
> 
> She says she is doing it. She humiliated herself by having a chaperon with her for this trip. She is putting herself voluntarily under Big Brother's gaze.
> 
> I think you are doing a bang up job sympathizing with Matt's plight. I think it might be better served to use your experiences to TELL HER what Matt needs (and so far, the answer doesn't seem to be 'a divorce yesterday' )
> 
> I think you could do that very well. How does she help Matt?


What does Matt need? Matt needs her to be close to him even when he says "go away." When he triggers she needs to tell him "I'm so sorry that I hurt you," I will never hurt you again," if there was any way I could take your pain away I would," etc. over and over until her voice is hoarse. She needs to check in with him via text, call or email several times a day. She needs to update him when she leaves wherever she was or returns so he knows her every move. She needs to be proactive in finding books on recovering from infidelity, making marriage stronger, and books that will help her personal growth as a woman, as a wife, and as a lover. She needs to be truthful about everything, not just her affair. She can never again be caught in a lie. But she needs to make sure that when she is about to tell Matt a truth that will hurt him she needs to do it in a way to be truthful while minimizing his hurt. She needs to hold his hand when they walk anywhere. She needs to put her hand on his knee when he is driving. She needs to touch him as much as possible so that he feels that physical connection all the time. She needs to tell him "I love you" so many times a day that it will never be a question in his mind. She also needs to tell him "I love you" when they are out in public so that the world knows it as well.

She needs to get herself in the greatest physical shape she can possibly be in. She needs to make sure she is always looking good so that Matt will be proud to introduce her as his wife. But she also needs to make sure to look her best when they are alone together so that Matt doesn't feel she is dressing up for others and not him. She needs to understand that no matter how the relationship dynamics were before this all occurred they are different now. The power balance has tipped in Matt's favor as it should be. She needs to learn to be confident but also submissive to Matt right now. She needs to build him back up as a man because she has damaged that confident part of him that she once loved and its her fault. When they have sex she needs to concentrate on the feelings she is getting from what Matt is doing. She needs to be vocal about how good he is making her feel. She needs to enjoy the sex with him like a woman who has almost lost her soulmate and has a second chance at happiness. And she needs to communicate this to him always.

Most of all she needs to do all this with Matt and only Matt in mind. Each and every thought should be how can I help Matt? How can I make Matt feel good? How can I show Matt he is my one true love and always will be? She should not think about doing anything unless and only if Matt benefits. And she needs to start all of this RIGHT NOW so that Matt can have something to look forward to when she gets back from her three weeks away. These are things I can suggest to Mrs M. These are things that would have made a difference in my first marriage. These things are a good start.


----------



## warlock07

> What does Matt need? Matt needs her to be close to him even when he says "go away."


Not exactly sure about this. WS needs to be close to BS after D-day in order for R to happen but Matt never said that he needs her to be close.


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Not exactly sure about this. WS needs to be close to BS after D-day in order for R to happen but Matt never said that he needs her to be close.


Excuse me if this sounds wrong but I don't think Matt really knows what he needs. I didn't and I dare say most BS don't.


----------



## warlock07

but we do?


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> but we do?


Having gone through it and come out on the other side I think we have more perspective than a newly betrayed spouse yes.

But let me clarify a bit more.

When I said she should stay close I meant she can leave the room but continue to check on him and be there to help if he needs her.

Another good resource she has available to her is the reconciliation thread in CWI. In that thread we have several couples that are far down the road to successful R. Mrs. M can post in that thread (she's posted once already) and ask for advice from these couples on what worked in their situations and try to apply it to hers.

As far as Matt not knowing what he needs, let me share something from one of his recent posts and my interpretation of what he is really feeling.

Matt says: MrsM isn't incapable of sacrifice

Matt says: As for this trip, not once, not once did I consider asking her not to do it

Matt says: I know her at all she will manage to pull herself together, to do her wonderful compartmentalization

Matt says: I'm not even sure how much I'd care if there's another DDay

Matt says: MrsM should be wondering who is courting me, where I am, what I'm thinking.

I apologize if pasting those statements here violates Matt's privacy in any way but its the only way I can illustrate my point.

Matt talks about her trip and says he never asked her to cancel but he never says he doesn't WANT her to cancel on her own. Earlier in the post he expresses that he never stood up for himself enough and how he never wanted to appear controlling. I contend that the same things is occurring here. He really wants her to cancel but would never ask her because he is a "nice guy." If he actually asked her to cancel he would feel he is being controlling and would actually feel guilty. I don't think he has ever fully admitted his needs even to himself. I think this is also related to his belief that she cannot find the will to sacrifice. If she could she would cancel this trip on her own.

When he talks about her ability to compartmentalize its not done in an admiring way. Its said out of bitterness. This trip is just another demonstration to him that she is going to do what she wants to do regardless of how it affects him. And she'll be successful because her ability to compartmentalize will allow her to ignore the pain he is in while she is gone.

He then goes on to say he doesn't really know if he'll care about another D-Day. This is a man that is already starting to detach from her because he knows she will be gone from his life for three weeks in January. When she is actually gone he will find it very easy to be done with her because he is already putting himself in the mindset of detachment from her.

When he talks about who is courting him he is already mentally preparing to move on to a new life and potentially new loves. Not only is he detaching but he is looking ahead to life beyond his current marriage. This is also a statement that he really doesn't believe his wife is fighting for him the way she should be. Therefore he has already thought about other women appreciating him more than Mrs M does right now.

All this said I am not saying he does not have the right to think these things. On the contrary I think if I were in his shoes that is exactly how I would be thinking. Mrs M has not done enough to prove to him through actions that she really wants to save her marriage and values him. She has said the words but it stopped there. The fact that she is going ahead with this trip is the final nail in the coffin IMO. Statements like these from Matt himself is why I said this trip is too soon in the process of recovery and why I believe that when Mrs M returns she will find her marriage all but over.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Having gone through it and come out on the other side I think we have more perspective than a newly betrayed spouse yes.
> 
> But let me clarify a bit more.
> 
> When I said she should stay close I meant she can leave the room but continue to check on him and be there to help if he needs her.
> 
> Another good resource she has available to her is the reconciliation thread in CWI. In that thread we have several couples that are far down the road to successful R. Mrs. M can post in that thread (she's posted once already) and ask for advice from these couples on what worked in their situations and try to apply it to hers.
> 
> As far as Matt not knowing what he needs, let me share something from one of his recent posts and my interpretation of what he is really feeling.
> 
> Matt says: MrsM isn't incapable of sacrifice
> 
> Matt says: As for this trip, not once, not once did I consider asking her not to do it
> 
> Matt says: I know her at all she will manage to pull herself together, to do her wonderful compartmentalization
> 
> Matt says: I'm not even sure how much I'd care if there's another DDay
> 
> Matt says: MrsM should be wondering who is courting me, where I am, what I'm thinking.
> 
> I apologize if pasting those statements here violates Matt's privacy in any way but its the only way I can illustrate my point.
> 
> Matt talks about her trip and says he never asked her to cancel but he never says he doesn't WANT her to cancel on her own. Earlier in the post he expresses that he never stood up for himself enough and how he never wanted to appear controlling. I contend that the same things is occurring here. He really wants her to cancel but would never ask her because he is a "nice guy." If he actually asked her to cancel he would feel he is being controlling and would actually feel guilty. I don't think he has ever fully admitted his needs even to himself. I think this is also related to his belief that she cannot find the will to sacrifice. If she could she would cancel this trip on her own.
> 
> When he talks about her ability to compartmentalize its not done in an admiring way. Its said out of bitterness. This trip is just another demonstration to him that she is going to do what she wants to do regardless of how it affects him. And she'll be successful because her ability to compartmentalize will allow her to ignore the pain he is in while she is gone.
> 
> He then goes on to say he doesn't really know if he'll care about another D-Day. This is a man that is already starting to detach from her because he knows she will be gone from his life for three weeks in January. When she is actually gone he will find it very easy to be done with her because he is already putting himself in the mindset of detachment from her.
> 
> When he talks about who is courting him he is already mentally preparing to move on to a new life and potentially new loves. Not only is he detaching but he is looking ahead to life beyond his current marriage. This is also a statement that he really doesn't believe his wife is fighting for him the way she should be. Therefore he has already thought about other women appreciating him more than Mrs M does right now.
> 
> All this said I am not saying he does not have the right to think these things. On the contrary I think if I were in his shoes that is exactly how I would be thinking. Mrs M has not done enough to prove to him through actions that she really wants to save her marriage and values him. She has said the words but it stopped there. The fact that she is going ahead with this trip is the final nail in the coffin IMO. Statements like these from Matt himself is why I said this trip is too soon in the process of recovery and why I believe that when Mrs M returns she will find her marriage all but over.



What about the scenario where MrsM blows her career up to prove her love?

Does counselling continue, or can they no longer afford it?
Can they afford to live in their current house?
What aspects of their life must they give up? Would this breed resentment?
Would MrsM mope around the house, becoming a more negative and depressed person?

You and I did the whole "is the time away good or bad?" thing, and our thoughts are out there. We just don't see that one the same way.

But there is financial reality as well. 

It's about MrsM learning to balance.

And DrM has been talking about wanting to be more alpha. Well Doc, here is a chance, if you haven't already.....

If you want her to go, tell her "I have read all that stuff on TAM and I really want you to go."

If you want her to blow the trip up, tell her "I don't want you to go. You figure out how to contain the fallout and let's talk about it."

Or figure out additional boundaries you want to impose, and mandate them.

Do you feel you are taking second place in this trip Doc, as has been speculated?


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> What about the scenario where MrsM blows her career up to prove her love?
> 
> *Glad you asked. She shouldn't be in that career any longer. She has proven she cannot handle it and also be a good wife and mother. She needs to find another career if she wants to be a married woman.*
> 
> Does counselling continue, or can they no longer afford it?
> Can they afford to live in their current house?
> What aspects of their life must they give up? Would this breed resentment?
> 
> *What would you say to anyone that had a workplace affair? They gave up the right to continue in that job. They chose to soil where they worked so they have to find a new job. If Mrs M canceled her trip she could not work in theater anymore. Good. She shouldn't.*
> 
> 
> Would MrsM mope around the house, becoming a more negative and depressed person?
> 
> *I didn't say she has to become a SAHM. Just not what she is currently doing. She was already neglecting her husband and son before the affair took place. That in and of itself proves she needs to switch careers.*
> 
> You and I did the whole "is the time away good or bad?" thing, and our thoughts are out there. We just don't see that one the same way.
> 
> *True. But I can only speak from my perspective and I think Matt's perspective speaks for itself.*
> 
> But there is financial reality as well.
> 
> *What are finances? They translate into jobs. Do the jobs support the marriage or does the marriage support the jobs? What good are the jobs if there is no marriage unless you want the career and not the marriage? Don't we often advise people that you can live on less to save a marriage?*
> 
> It's about MrsM learning to balance.
> 
> *She has proven that she can't find that balance and more important Doc, in his words, shows that he does not believe she can find that balance either.*
> 
> And DrM has been talking about wanting to be more alpha. Well Doc, here is a chance, if you haven't already.....
> 
> *I agree. But becomeing more alpha doesn't happen overnight. Its not a switch its a process. And right now Mrs M should be doing the heavy lifting for the marriage, not Doc.*
> 
> If you want her to go, tell her "I have read all that stuff on TAM and I really want you to go."
> 
> If you want her to blow the trip up, tell her "I don't want you to go. You figure out how to contain the fallout and let's talk about it."
> 
> Or figure out additional boundaries you want to impose, and mandate them.
> 
> *Doc has been tremendously strong through all this. But I don't think he's far enough along to really address this. I feel he has already expressed his feelings through his words in his thread. I just think Mrs M is too deaf to hear them.*
> 
> Do you feel you are taking second place in this trip Doc, as has been speculated?


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Originally Posted by Wazza
> What about the scenario where MrsM blows her career up to prove her love?
> 
> Glad you asked. She shouldn't be in that career any longer. She has proven she cannot handle it and also be a good wife and mother. She needs to find another career if she wants to be a married woman.
> 
> Does counselling continue, or can they no longer afford it?
> Can they afford to live in their current house?
> What aspects of their life must they give up? Would this breed resentment?
> 
> What would you say to anyone that had a workplace affair? They gave up the right to continue in that job. They chose to soil where they worked so they have to find a new job. If Mrs M canceled her trip she could not work in theater anymore. Good. She shouldn't.
> 
> 
> Would MrsM mope around the house, becoming a more negative and depressed person?
> 
> I didn't say she has to become a SAHM. Just not what she is currently doing. She was already neglecting her husband and son before the affair took place. That in and of itself proves she needs to switch careers.
> 
> You and I did the whole "is the time away good or bad?" thing, and our thoughts are out there. We just don't see that one the same way.
> 
> True. But I can only speak from my perspective and I think Matt's perspective speaks for itself.
> 
> But there is financial reality as well.
> 
> What are finances? They translate into jobs. Do the jobs support the marriage or does the marriage support the jobs? What good are the jobs if there is no marriage unless you want the career and not the marriage? Don't we often advise people that you can live on less to save a marriage?
> 
> It's about MrsM learning to balance.
> 
> She has proven that she can't find that balance and more important Doc, in his words, shows that he does not believe she can find that balance either.
> 
> And DrM has been talking about wanting to be more alpha. Well Doc, here is a chance, if you haven't already.....
> 
> I agree. But becomeing more alpha doesn't happen overnight. Its not a switch its a process. And right now Mrs M should be doing the heavy lifting for the marriage, not Doc.
> 
> If you want her to go, tell her "I have read all that stuff on TAM and I really want you to go."
> 
> If you want her to blow the trip up, tell her "I don't want you to go. You figure out how to contain the fallout and let's talk about it."
> 
> Or figure out additional boundaries you want to impose, and mandate them.
> 
> Doc has been tremendously strong through all this. But I don't think he's far enough along to really address this. I feel he has already expressed his feelings through his words in his thread. I just think Mrs M is too deaf to hear them.
> 
> Do you feel you are taking second place in this trip Doc, as has been speculated?


"Hi. Mrs Mathias here. I am looking for a new job.......yes I have extensive experience in the theatre......no, nothing else.......well yes I am 37........but I'm really keen.........oh...well please tell me if anything comes up. Thanks."

This whole just get another job idea is all very nice, but she is at the age where most people are at the peak of their career. What is she going to do?

She has gone down the wrong path and done some horrible things, and cannot continue as she has. But there are two ways to be different. One is to change jobs, the other is to change the way she approaches her current job. Both have pluses and minuses. The Mathiases have to work through that together.

Dr Mat has expressed his disdain for OM working in a drive thru and being unable even to afford a car. Does he really want his wife to make a career choice that puts her in the same place?

The idea in the case of reconciliation is to clean up the bad and fix the good, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> "Hi. Mrs Mathias here. I am looking for a new job.......yes I have extensive experience in the theatre......no, nothing else.......well yes I am 37........but I'm really keen.........oh...well please tell me if anything comes up. Thanks."
> 
> *Please. She can just say that although she was fairly successful she has decided that due to the birth of her son and the fact that her responsibilities have changed she needs to reprioritize her life. This isn't done every day already by many women?*
> 
> This whole just get another job idea is all very nice, but she is at the age where most people are at the peak of their career. What is she going to do?
> 
> *She should have thought about this before she shagged the guy at work. Actions....meet consequences!*
> 
> She has gone down the wrong path and done some horrible things, and cannot continue as she has. But there are two ways to be different. One is to change jobs, the other is to change the way she approaches her current job. Both have pluses and minuses. The Mathiases have to work through that together.
> 
> *It has already been stated by both of them that the theater is full of irresponsible people and a toxic environment for anyone much less someone with poor boundaries and an experiences cheater. Nuff said.*
> 
> Dr Mat has expressed his disdain for OM working in a drive thru and being unable even to afford a car. Does he really want his wife to make a career choice that puts her in the same place?
> 
> *Ummm, you can't see the difference between the OM's job choice and what Mrs M would be willing to sacrifice for her marriage? Really?*
> 
> 
> The idea in the case of reconciliation is to clean up the bad and fix the good, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> *The bad in this case is her career considering that it directly affected and still is affecting her choices and behavior. You may not have to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I would seriously think about replacing the tub.*


----------



## snap

I have a sickening feeling this is not going to end well.

Mrs, this is the worst time for a 3 week tour. Like, ever.


----------



## Wazza

Bfree, you are not seeing the wood for the trees.

The Mathiases have a lifestyle. It's not just a case of her sacrifices, her paying a price. You cut their income in half and they all suffer.

MrsM is 37. In any career change she is competing with younger people, and those of her age who have more experience. She changes career to a dead end job, the money, satisfaction and security all goes down. She changes to another career, she has to work harder. Where she is she has experience and seniority. Those are things she can trade on to negotiate a deal more suitable to her circumstances.

In my life I have worked in IT, finance and (wait for it!) the performing arts. I have had sexual opportunities in all of those. I don't believe that performing arts is any more toxic than the others. Some people choose to be toxic.

If the Mathiases believe she must change jobs to save the marriage, then of course she has to look at it. But IMO anyone who things a career change will save things in isolation is not fully seeing the difficulties of a career change of its impacts on the marriage.


----------



## dogman

warlock07 said:


> Not exactly sure about this. WS needs to be close to BS after D-day in order for R to happen but Matt never said that he needs her to be close.



Truthfully, Matt needs her to go away so he can put his head back on straight and kick her to the curb without the confusion of his body vs his mind. What is habit vs what he needs to do for his sanity.

The WS needs to stay close to save the marriage. The BS needs her to go away to think clearly to make a decision that is not influenced by her manipulation.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Bfree, you are not seeing the wood for the trees.
> 
> The Mathiases have a lifestyle. It's not just a case of her sacrifices, her paying a price. You cut their income in half and they all suffer.
> 
> MrsM is 37. In any career change she is competing with younger people, and those of her age who have more experience. She changes career to a dead end job, the money, satisfaction and security all goes down. She changes to another career, she has to work harder. Where she is she has experience and seniority. Those are things she can trade on to negotiate a deal more suitable to her circumstances.
> 
> In my life I have worked in IT, finance and (wait for it!) the performing arts. I have had sexual opportunities in all of those. I don't believe that performing arts is any more toxic than the others. Some people choose to be toxic.
> 
> If the Mathiases believe she must change jobs to save the marriage, then of course she has to look at it. But IMO anyone who things a career change will save things in isolation is not fully seeing the difficulties of a career change of its impacts on the marriage.


You're correct. We can go round and round all we want but ultimately its Matt's decision whether her career choice needs to be rethought if she wants to stay married. I feel that a completely clean slate would be best since she has already muddied those waters. You feel that she can make necessary changes to remain in her chosen profession and salvage her marriage. I don't see her recent choices and actions indicating that she is able to make those changes but we will agree to disagree there. I think you are overstating the damage a career change will be. And I think you are underestimating the pressure Matt will feel should he decide to give her another chance and she remain in her current profession. It may all be for naught since I think by February their marriage will be all but over anyway.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> You're correct. We can go round and round all we want but ultimately its Matt's decision whether her career choice needs to be rethought if she wants to stay married. I feel that a completely clean slate would be best since she has already muddied those waters. You feel that she can make necessary changes to remain in her chosen profession and salvage her marriage. I don't see her recent choices and actions indicating that she is able to make those changes but we will agree to disagree there. I think you are overstating the damage a career change will be. And I think you are underestimating the pressure Matt will feel should he decide to give her another chance and she remain in her current profession. It may all be for naught since I think by February their marriage will be all but over anyway.




I am playing devil's advocate to a degree. There is truth in both sides, you are arguing one side very well, and therefore I only need to argue the other.

In the end, I think it all comes down to whether his love for her is sufficient to overcome his hurt and disgust at what she did.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Mrs. Mathias: Despite the choices you made and the devestation that followed I hope you and Matt can work it out. You seem like decent people in a bad place. I would add, though, that your actions will always be a stain in the fabric of your relationship but you can get over it.


----------



## Kasler

Thinkitthrough said:


> Mrs. Mathias: Despite the choices you made and the devestation that followed I hope you and Matt can work it out. You seem like decent people in a bad place. I would add, though, that your actions will always be a stain in the fabric of your relationship but you can get over it.


Its impossible to get over it, only move past it.


----------



## sandc

Let the old marriage die. Let the old woman die. She has to die. She killed a perfectly good marriage.

Take up the new woman and perhaps you can win Matt over. Become someone completely new. Make a new marriage. The old one can never be.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*Enjoyed WAZZA and bfree exchanges. very Good with lots of different views and thoughts. Also very respectful. Hopefully someone will benefit.*


Other posters had good points also it is just that Wazza and bfree put on a long debate


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Kasler: You are right, of course. I meant "get over it" in the sense of an obstacle to be surmounted, should have said move past it. Just my way ot thinking. Oops.


----------



## LoveDr

Its time to put yourself back out on the market. Cheating one time is enough..Let alone numerous. Keep it moving. There entirely too many good potential mates out there to be devastated over one that is no good. 
Good luck


----------



## sandc

LoveDr said:


> Its time to put yourself back out on the market. Cheating one time is enough..Let alone numerous. Keep it moving. There entirely too many good potential mates out there to be devastated over one that is no good.
> Good luck


Huh? :scratchhead:

You're telling a formerly WS to put herself back on the market? She's trying to save her marriage. Are you sure you posted in the right thread?


----------



## The Middleman

sandc said:


> Huh? :scratchhead:
> 
> You're telling a formerly WS to put herself back on the market? She's trying to save her marriage. Are you sure you posted in the right thread?


I think he is saying to MrsMatt, "give up trying to save your marriage what you did was F U B A R, and there is no recovering from this". It ties into what he said on Dr.Matt's thread. He may not have said it well, but his thoughts are right on the money.


----------



## sandc

Oh. Gotcha.

Don't give up MrsM.


----------



## dogman

LoveDr said:


> Its time to put yourself back out on the market. Cheating one time is enough..Let alone numerous. Keep it moving. There entirely too many good potential mates out there to be devastated over one that is no good.
> Good luck


Isn't that the problem. She put herself back on the market too soon.

If everyone just moved on there would be no self improvement and the second marriage will fail as well because you would just carry your issues into another relationship.

Even if this marriage doesn't make it, it needs to be Matt's decision and they both need to come out of it with better relationship skills or at least the ability to look at themselves objectively for future improvements.


----------



## dogman

The Middleman said:


> I think he is saying to MrsMatt, "give up trying to save your marriage what you did was F U B A R, and there is no recovering from this". It ties into what he said on Dr.Matt's thread. He may not have said it well, but his thoughts are right on the money.


If I hit someone with my car and break their legs, do I stay and take care of them and try to make it right or do I say "wow, I messed that up, I'm outta here"

Giving up, in the case of the person who did wrong and is sorry, is the cowards way out.

It's Matt's prerogative as to where to go from here. She should at least give him that.

I get this approach on Matt's thread, but not here.
The person hit by the car has a right to wave off help from the person who ran them over.


----------



## The Middleman

dogman said:


> If I hit someone with my car and break their legs, do I stay and take care of them and try to make it right or do I say "wow, I messed that up, I'm outta here"


All I was trying to do was point out what I think the guy was tying to say. There is a big difference between a married woman putting her family at risk, deceiving and defying her husband by fvcking some strange kid multiple times, even after getting caught. The comparison to hitting someone with a car doesn't even come close. For a car accident you have laws. Unfortunately, for infidelity, we don't.



dogman said:


> Giving up, in the case of the person who did wrong and is sorry, is the cowards way out.


I see your point and I don't blame her for trying. However, I don't attribute her "change of heart" to any high and noble epiphany. I firmly believe that if she didn't get caught, she would still be getting banged by the kid and I wouldn't be surprised if she wouldn't have left Matt for that boy. She's not the real deal and as I have said on this board many times before, I believe that most WS in "R" are not really doing so whole heatedly, there are other factors driving the "R" (children, economic, social, .....). I also think "R" would be a mistake in any infidelity case with circumstances similar to this one.



dogman said:


> It's Matt's prerogative as to where to go from here. She should at least give him that.


Yes it is and he can do what he wants to, but I think that he would be a fool to "R" and I've advised him that on his thread. Some things just can't be fixed and some things shouldn't be forgiven, but he's the only one who can make that decision in this case.



dogman said:


> I get this approach on Matt's thread, but not here.
> The person hit by the car has a right to wave off help from the person who ran them over.


And the guy did post it on Matt's thread. He just didn't phrase what he wanted to say here very well. Some where amongst all these posts I think I advised Mrs.Matt to back off let Matt divorce her so he can clear his head and and make a well thought out decision over time.


----------



## JCD

Nice analogy dogman.


----------



## dogman

The Middleman said:


> All I was trying to do was point out what I think the guy was tying to say. There is a big difference between a married woman putting her family at risk, deceiving and defying her husband by fvcking some strange kid multiple times, even after getting caught. The comparison to hitting someone with a car doesn't even come close. For a car accident you have laws. Unfortunately, for infidelity, we don't.
> 
> 
> I see your point and I don't blame her for trying. However, I don't attribute her "change of heart" to any high and noble epiphany. I firmly believe that if she didn't get caught, she would still be getting banged by the kid and I wouldn't be surprised if she wouldn't have left Matt for that boy. She's not the real deal and as I have said on this board many times before, I believe that most WS in "R" are not really doing so whole heatedly, there are other factors driving the "R" (children, economic, social, .....). I also think "R" would be a mistake in any infidelity case with circumstances similar to this one.
> 
> 
> *Yes it is and he can do what he wants to, but I think that he would be a fool to "R" and I've advised him that on his thread. Some things just can't be fixed and some things shouldn't be forgiven, but he's the only one who can make that decision in this case.
> *
> 
> And the guy did post it on Matt's thread. He just didn't phrase what he wanted to say here very well. Some where amongst all these posts I think I advised Mrs.Matt to back off let Matt divorce her so he can clear his head and and make a well thought out decision over time.


Well said Middleman. 

I agree with this post except her backing off, she should continue begging and then Matt can move on with some of his power back. I think the 3 week break will be good for him.

I especially agree with the paragraph in bold print.


----------



## The Middleman

dogman said:


> Well said Middleman.
> 
> I agree with this post except her backing off, she should continue begging and then Matt can move on with some of his power back. I think the 3 week break will be good for him.


Your right, he needs alot of time away from her to clear his head.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, lately I've been riding the roller coaster as best I can here, and trying to be supportive and helpful to my husband.

Overall, I would say the holidays were FAR better than I could have expected. The weekend before Christmas, our family went to visit Matt's mom so they could make cookies together. She wasn't sure she wanted to see me, so I spent the day and night with mutual friends that have been very supportive to Matt and I as we go through this horrible experience. Seeing and dealing with Matt's mom was a huge anxiety source for me. I knew she had HATED Matt's XW for a long time, and Matt had once commented that he could never tell her what I did because she would never forgive me and our family interactions would be ruined forever. 

But, the next day, she agreed to let me come into her house to watch our son while she and Matt frosted cookies, and she invited us back for Christmas day. It was really a miracle in my mind.

Christmas eve I cooked dinner for us and we opened some gifts together. Matt seemed to really like his present from me, and we had fun watching our son really get into things. After his bedtime, though, things shifted for the worse. Matt started by calmly telling me he couldn't accept the present I gave him, that it would always be associated with this horrible time in our lives. I was terribly disappointed, I really was excited to find something I thought was perfect and a surprise, but I can understand his view, so I simply agreed. After that, he spiraled down into a rage for several hours. Lots of disbelief, statements about what I did, and choosing to use words and phrases that are accurate, but nonetheless, exceptionally hurtful because of the terrible names, etc.; he struggled with this for a long time before deciding to go upstairs to watch a movie. I let him go, spent about 30 minutes getting myself together, and then followed him up. He let me in and we watched the film together, and then returned to bed. And rewound to exactly the same place we were in before we watched the movie. It made me so sad so watch him go through such pain and anger. I tried to hold him, but he didn't want that so we just spent the night lying next to each other, him raging, me trying to respond when there was something to respond to, and otherwise, trying to hold myself together so I could be there for him instead of drowning in my own hurt. Neither of us really slept.

Christmas morning was the same between Matt and I, but we got up with our son and enjoyed watching him open his Santa presents. Matt went back to bed while our son and I FaceTimed with my parents so they could watch him open presents from them. Then we got ready to go to Matt's family for Christmas dinner. I was pretty much a wreck at this point - regressed to dry heaving/vomiting up bile which I haven't really done from emotion/stress since about 2 weeks after D-Day 2/3. I was dreading 2 hours in the car with Matt, not knowing if we were just going to continue the tirade from the night before, not knowing what to expect from him family, not knowing if I could keep calm in front of my son and not scare him again. So I took 2 Xanax. My doctor had prescribed them for me after Thanksgiving, and I have sporadically used a single pill here and there to get myself together, make sure I could eat, and not just panic and vomit constantly. This was the first and last time I will ever take two. I don't like pills in general, and this made me really tired and zombified. It was hard to even experience my emotions, let alone clearly communicate about them. I don't remember a lot about the drive, Matt had some comments/questions and I tried to answer, but wasn't really there, I guess.

Things with his family were far better than I could have ever hoped, certainly NOTHING I deserved. I figured that a best case scenario would be everyone complete ignoring me, isolating me from the conversations/activities of the day. I spent a lot of time on the drive painting worse case scenarios - being screamed at by his siblings, thrown out by his dad, things of that nature. Instead, they were all pleasant, relatively normal conversation, and game playing together. I took a few minutes with each of Matt's siblings, his dad, and my stepson to apologize in person. I told them they didn't have to discuss things with me, that I just wanted them to know how sorry I was for how badly I'd hurt Matt, and that I would do anything I could to help him go forward. Matt's brother and my stepson were mostly silent. His dad was amazing. Gave me a hug, told me I was still his favorite daughter-in-law (of course, I'm the ONLY daughter-in-law) and that he hoped we could work on things. His sister responded similarly - with the "people make mistakes" kind of commentary that really upsets Matt, but also that she hopes we can figure stuff out. I didn't talk to his mom that day because I had left her a crying message after D-Day 2, and Matt had said it wasn't right for me to force myself on people with this situation and my apologies. So I only spoke to those that i hadn't spoken with before. 

The last few days have been really wonderful (as far as navigating this kind of situation goes). We left Matt's mom's house, and he asked if I had spoken with her in person like everyone else. I said no and mentioned why. He suggested I go back and in talk to her to, so I did, and was really glad about that. She decided to be the bigger person so that our son could have a nice Christmas, and I told her I would do whatever Matt needed to go on, whether that is D or R. I told her I would never stand in his way and make sure that things go as smoothly as I can make them as we navigate this. She seemed glad to hear that, after the years of combative divorce Matt suffered with his XW.

We have talked and talked these last three days. Matt said he just wanted to spend all day in my arms, so we took our son to daycare and spent a day essentially like that. I asked how he felt about me going up to watch the movie with him when he was so angry that night, and he said that more of him wanted me there than wanted me away, so that was good for me to hear. It helps to know that even when he says stay away or he hates me, he just needs me to be tenacious and keep trying with him. We continued this pattern until last night, and then last night became another angry evening for Matt. The cycle is so hard on him. Worse because he says he can't identify any specific trigger right now. Things that I think should and will set him off don't seem to - we seem to be able to talk through those. But then out of the blue, (to me, it seems) he will just become engulfed with anger and pain and I have no clue how to anticipate those moments and his needs. So I am stuck reacting instead of trying to be proactive to help him. I hate that.

So, I'm still waiting to see which way the roller coaster takes us today. I got up with our son and am letting Matt sleep in - he ended up taking some medicine to help with that late last night. I know this is going to be our future for a while, but I hope I can keep working to identify and anticipate these episodes, so I can be more supportive and helpful to Matt. He is so amazing and strong, and it breaks my heart to listen to him talk about how stupid he is and what a loser he feels like. I NEVER thought those things of him, and I try to show him every single moment of every day that that is not who he is.

(P.S. Thanks for reading my epic posts. Someday I'll learn to edit/condense better.)


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I asked how he felt about me going up to watch the movie with him when he was so angry that night, and he said that more of him wanted me there than wanted me away, so that was good for me to hear. It helps to know that even when he says stay away or he hates me, he just needs me to be tenacious and keep trying with him.


This is exactly what I was trying to tell you Mrs M. Sometimes we don't know what we want or need. The pain is too great for us to focus through. Just like you were in your own fog while engaged in the affair, your husband is in his fog now. Sometimes we just need the person that hurt us to be willing to hold us when the pain is greatest. Even if all you do is be there to comfort him and show you are there for him it is enough. This is why I suggested that when he says for you to go away, don't go far away. He may/will still need you close by. This is also why I said that even though he told you to go away for the three weeks in January that is really not what he needs or wants. I hope this gives you a little more understanding of how he needs you to think and act on his needs and not necessarily what he says.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> This is exactly what I was trying to tell you Mrs M. Sometimes we don't know what we want or need. The pain is too great for us to focus through. Just like you were in your own fog while engaged in the affair, your husband is in his fog now. Sometimes we just need the person that hurt us to be willing to hold us when the pain is greatest. Even if all you do is be there to comfort him and show you are there for him it is enough. This is why I suggested that when he says for you to go away, don't go far away. He may/will still need you close by. This is also why I said that even though he told you to go away for the three weeks in January that is really not what he needs or wants. I hope this gives you a little more understanding of how he needs you to think and act on his needs and not necessarily what he says.


And while I ave argued the other side of things re the trip away, Bfree's point here is exactly right.

The trouble is, anything you do can be wrong.


----------



## Acabado

Be patient, just embrace the idea you are going to be now the rock, that no win situations will present with no warning for a good while (the present... it's what it is). Matt is in a place there's no need of specific triggers, he's dealing with the massive trauma. There's no right way to deal with it. You are "there" too, even if self inflicted. Again, be the rock. Gain some tolerance to frustration and grow a thick skin to take the namecalling and verbal tirades. That's how it is.
Patience, respect, humility, endurance, proactiveness. And self work.
If you didn't already, read this.
Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners And How to Rebuild Your Spouse's Trust After an Affair (Wiki)
Also, this little book has only 100 pages.
How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful
There's also e-book version aviable at the autor's page: Here

Hangin there.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, lately I've been riding the roller coaster as best I can here, and trying to be supportive and helpful to my husband.
> 
> Overall, I would say the holidays were FAR better than I could have expected. The weekend before Christmas, our family went to visit Matt's mom so they could make cookies together. She wasn't sure she wanted to see me, so I spent the day and night with mutual friends that have been very supportive to Matt and I as we go through this horrible experience. Seeing and dealing with Matt's mom was a huge anxiety source for me. I knew she had HATED Matt's XW for a long time, and Matt had once commented that he could never tell her what I did because she would never forgive me and our family interactions would be ruined forever.
> 
> But, the next day, she agreed to let me come into her house to watch our son while she and Matt frosted cookies, and she invited us back for Christmas day. It was really a miracle in my mind.
> 
> Christmas eve I cooked dinner for us and we opened some gifts together. Matt seemed to really like his present from me, and we had fun watching our son really get into things. After his bedtime, though, things shifted for the worse. Matt started by calmly telling me he couldn't accept the present I gave him, that it would always be associated with this horrible time in our lives. I was terribly disappointed, I really was excited to find something I thought was perfect and a surprise, but I can understand his view, so I simply agreed. After that, he spiraled down into a rage for several hours. Lots of disbelief, statements about what I did, and choosing to use words and phrases that are accurate, but nonetheless, exceptionally hurtful because of the terrible names, etc.; he struggled with this for a long time before deciding to go upstairs to watch a movie. I let him go, spent about 30 minutes getting myself together, and then followed him up. He let me in and we watched the film together, and then returned to bed. And rewound to exactly the same place we were in before we watched the movie. It made me so sad so watch him go through such pain and anger. I tried to hold him, but he didn't want that so we just spent the night lying next to each other, him raging, me trying to respond when there was something to respond to, and otherwise, trying to hold myself together so I could be there for him instead of drowning in my own hurt. Neither of us really slept.
> 
> Christmas morning was the same between Matt and I, but we got up with our son and enjoyed watching him open his Santa presents. Matt went back to bed while our son and I FaceTimed with my parents so they could watch him open presents from them. Then we got ready to go to Matt's family for Christmas dinner. I was pretty much a wreck at this point - regressed to dry heaving/vomiting up bile which I haven't really done from emotion/stress since about 2 weeks after D-Day 2/3. I was dreading 2 hours in the car with Matt, not knowing if we were just going to continue the tirade from the night before, not knowing what to expect from him family, not knowing if I could keep calm in front of my son and not scare him again. So I took 2 Xanax. My doctor had prescribed them for me after Thanksgiving, and I have sporadically used a single pill here and there to get myself together, make sure I could eat, and not just panic and vomit constantly. This was the first and last time I will ever take two. I don't like pills in general, and this made me really tired and zombified. It was hard to even experience my emotions, let alone clearly communicate about them. I don't remember a lot about the drive, Matt had some comments/questions and I tried to answer, but wasn't really there, I guess.
> 
> Things with his family were far better than I could have ever hoped, certainly NOTHING I deserved. I figured that a best case scenario would be everyone complete ignoring me, isolating me from the conversations/activities of the day. I spent a lot of time on the drive painting worse case scenarios - being screamed at by his siblings, thrown out by his dad, things of that nature. Instead, they were all pleasant, relatively normal conversation, and game playing together. I took a few minutes with each of Matt's siblings, his dad, and my stepson to apologize in person. I told them they didn't have to discuss things with me, that I just wanted them to know how sorry I was for how badly I'd hurt Matt, and that I would do anything I could to help him go forward. Matt's brother and my stepson were mostly silent. His dad was amazing. Gave me a hug, told me I was still his favorite daughter-in-law (of course, I'm the ONLY daughter-in-law) and that he hoped we could work on things. His sister responded similarly - with the "people make mistakes" kind of commentary that really upsets Matt, but also that she hopes we can figure stuff out. I didn't talk to his mom that day because I had left her a crying message after D-Day 2, and Matt had said it wasn't right for me to force myself on people with this situation and my apologies. So I only spoke to those that i hadn't spoken with before.
> 
> The last few days have been really wonderful (as far as navigating this kind of situation goes). We left Matt's mom's house, and he asked if I had spoken with her in person like everyone else. I said no and mentioned why. He suggested I go back and in talk to her to, so I did, and was really glad about that. She decided to be the bigger person so that our son could have a nice Christmas, and I told her I would do whatever Matt needed to go on, whether that is D or R. I told her I would never stand in his way and make sure that things go as smoothly as I can make them as we navigate this. She seemed glad to hear that, after the years of combative divorce Matt suffered with his XW.
> 
> We have talked and talked these last three days. Matt said he just wanted to spend all day in my arms, so we took our son to daycare and spent a day essentially like that. I asked how he felt about me going up to watch the movie with him when he was so angry that night, and he said that more of him wanted me there than wanted me away, so that was good for me to hear. It helps to know that even when he says stay away or he hates me, he just needs me to be tenacious and keep trying with him. We continued this pattern until last night, and then last night became another angry evening for Matt. The cycle is so hard on him. Worse because he says he can't identify any specific trigger right now. Things that I think should and will set him off don't seem to - we seem to be able to talk through those. But then out of the blue, (to me, it seems) he will just become engulfed with anger and pain and I have no clue how to anticipate those moments and his needs. So I am stuck reacting instead of trying to be proactive to help him. I hate that.
> 
> So, I'm still waiting to see which way the roller coaster takes us today. I got up with our son and am letting Matt sleep in - he ended up taking some medicine to help with that late last night. I know this is going to be our future for a while, but I hope I can keep working to identify and anticipate these episodes, so I can be more supportive and helpful to Matt. He is so amazing and strong, and it breaks my heart to listen to him talk about how stupid he is and what a loser he feels like. I NEVER thought those things of him, and I try to show him every single moment of every day that that is not who he is.
> 
> (P.S. Thanks for reading my epic posts. Someday I'll learn to edit/condense better.)


What did you think of him as you pursued CJ. Seems you were not too discreet either. How can he not feel stupid and embarrassed. You really lowered yourself. Your choice of soulmate reflects on your husband and what you truely think of him and your marriage.

My point is that you did think that of him. You did not do this because you love your husband, you did not do this because you are happy in your marriage. You did not think too much of him as you really did not try to hide the affair. You have to come to gripes with yourself. 

You are doing a great job in what you are doing but I am affaid it is more of a reaction than love. Unless you find what is going on inside of you, you will never be able to fix this. You went after CJ full steam. You had to have him. You had to do what you did. Let's face it, if CJ did not move, things more than likely would be very different. Had you not seen the facebook posts, things may be different.

You are doing everything you can do to R but how long will it last and is it what you want.


----------



## Wiserforit

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It seems like every day I realize/remember another piece of the past and what OM really knew about the situation before he kissed me the first time. I had TOLD him Matt had concerns about our friendship about a month before OM kissed me. I was shocked and surprised that Matt had voiced that, felt that I had never even considered OM in that way, and when OM asked me what was up, I filled him in. He laughed and said that was ridiculous, that he certainly didn't think of me that way, and I felt mad that he would laugh at Matt's concern and something that had upset both Matt and I , but relieved and safe at the same time that we were "just friends" and he agreed with me that Matt's fears were unfounded, I guess, for lack of a better term. I CAN'T BELIEVE it never occurred to me to doubt his word or sincerity in that situation.
> 
> Every day I feel stupider and stupider. I don't know HOW I could have not recognized OM's motivations/actions as being what they were. Matt says I am either incredibly stupid and naive, or incredibly manipulative and calculating.


Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here. 

This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting. 

The husband acknowledges the obvious signals students send us when they're infatuated. A person with this much experience, especially if they are reasonably attractive, knows this instantly when they see it. 

We can do the smack-down straight away, generally an average of one student per class I'd say in my experience, or we can milk it along with mixed signals. One good manipulative approach is to tell the prospective shag that your husband thinks he's a threat. Instead of a strong smack-down like "Let's make this clear: this is a teacher-student relationship. I'm happily married."

That's how you manipulate the prospective shag. Then you manipulate the husband and the people looking on by saying you gave this signal to the prospective shag as a way of protecting your marriage. It's almost as protective as showing a man your breasts and saying "you aren't interested in these, are you?"

His answer too - so utterly predictable: to lie in order to establish the mutual compact that you're both going to continue on getting more deeply involved by pretending there's nothing going on. It's the "Let's lie about what we're doing" compact.

A manipulative person is all about evading responsibility, and that's why instead of taking on the responsibility and telling the student that YOU think he's a threat to the marriage, the issue is posed as a concern of the _husband_. A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


----------



## The Middleman

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here.
> 
> This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting.
> 
> A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


The only thing you forgot to mention is that she wanted the affair to happen ... she leaned into it, as we say in New York.


----------



## bfree

The Middleman said:


> The only thing you forgot to mention is that she wanted the affair to happen ... *she leaned into it, as we say in New York*.


Leaned into it....otherwise known as a Don Baylor single eh?


----------



## warlock07

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here.
> 
> This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting.
> 
> The husband acknowledges the obvious signals students send us when they're infatuated. A person with this much experience, especially if they are reasonably attractive, knows this instantly when they see it.
> 
> We can do the smack-down straight away, generally an average of one student per class I'd say in my experience, or we can milk it along with mixed signals. One good manipulative approach is to tell the prospective shag that your husband thinks he's a threat. Instead of a strong smack-down like "Let's make this clear: this is a teacher-student relationship. I'm happily married."
> 
> That's how you manipulate the prospective shag. Then you manipulate the husband and the people looking on by saying you gave this signal to the prospective shag as a way of protecting your marriage. It's almost as protective as showing a man your breasts and saying "you aren't interested in these, are you?"
> 
> His answer too - so utterly predictable: to lie in order to establish the mutual compact that you're both going to continue on getting more deeply involved by pretending there's nothing going on. It's the "Let's lie about what we're doing" compact.
> 
> A manipulative person is all about evading responsibility, and that's why instead of taking on the responsibility and telling the student that YOU think he's a threat to the marriage, the issue is posed as a concern of the _husband_. A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


you should post more!!


----------



## PreRaphaelite

jim123 said:


> You are doing everything you can do to R but how long will it last and is it what you want.


I was going to say the same thing MrsM. You are obviously trying very hard to reconcile and that's commendable, but R is hell and that hell will stay with you for a long time even if you do stay with your husband. Are you really sure that R is what you want? Are you really sure that you aren't building up resentment of your own at the way you're bending over backwards to make this work? 

The simple fact of R is this: the BS has to come to a point where he or she forgives you. And that's up to him or her. No amount of fawning, consideration, crying or pleading or cooking dinners and giving presents will buy that, unless the BS is himself very selfish, and your husband doesn't sound like he's that kind of man.

If you love MrM. then there's not much more you can do but be patient and give them the chance to make up their minds. And accept that he may leave.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here.
> 
> This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting.
> 
> The husband acknowledges the obvious signals students send us when they're infatuated. A person with this much experience, especially if they are reasonably attractive, knows this instantly when they see it.
> 
> We can do the smack-down straight away, generally an average of one student per class I'd say in my experience, or we can milk it along with mixed signals. One good manipulative approach is to tell the prospective shag that your husband thinks he's a threat. Instead of a strong smack-down like "Let's make this clear: this is a teacher-student relationship. I'm happily married."
> 
> That's how you manipulate the prospective shag. Then you manipulate the husband and the people looking on by saying you gave this signal to the prospective shag as a way of protecting your marriage. It's almost as protective as showing a man your breasts and saying "you aren't interested in these, are you?"
> 
> His answer too - so utterly predictable: to lie in order to establish the mutual compact that you're both going to continue on getting more deeply involved by pretending there's nothing going on. It's the "Let's lie about what we're doing" compact.
> 
> A manipulative person is all about evading responsibility, and that's why instead of taking on the responsibility and telling the student that YOU think he's a threat to the marriage, the issue is posed as a concern of the _husband_. A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


Awesome post


----------



## Chaparral

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here.
> 
> This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting.
> 
> The husband acknowledges the obvious signals students send us when they're infatuated. A person with this much experience, especially if they are reasonably attractive, knows this instantly when they see it.
> 
> We can do the smack-down straight away, generally an average of one student per class I'd say in my experience, or we can milk it along with mixed signals. One good manipulative approach is to tell the prospective shag that your husband thinks he's a threat. Instead of a strong smack-down like "Let's make this clear: this is a teacher-student relationship. I'm happily married."
> 
> That's how you manipulate the prospective shag. Then you manipulate the husband and the people looking on by saying you gave this signal to the prospective shag as a way of protecting your marriage. It's almost as protective as showing a man your breasts and saying "you aren't interested in these, are you?"
> 
> His answer too - so utterly predictable: to lie in order to establish the mutual compact that you're both going to continue on getting more deeply involved by pretending there's nothing going on. It's the "Let's lie about what we're doing" compact.
> 
> A manipulative person is all about evading responsibility, and that's why instead of taking on the responsibility and telling the student that YOU think he's a threat to the marriage, the issue is posed as a concern of the _husband_. A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


So true. Also true. Mr. M. should have been going off like a raging bull. In her face and the OMs. This is refusing to let ones gut and God/evolution given jealousy tool to work for you.

The only place I have seen miss placed jealousy is in the movies.


----------



## Chaparral

This is neither here nor there. But in a lot of situations, and not just infidelity, I think your brain is just along for the ride. For example, I don't think people in a realtionship, originally go out on GNO/BNOs looking to get lucky. Drinking,dancing, hormones, etc. and people end up in the parking lot with their pants off. Wkae up the neat day and think, what the hell was I thinking.

This A was more drawn out but even Mr. M said he doesn't think she thoght it through. At some point, biology took over, and the brain was left out of the equation. Smart people do stupid things and then do not understand how they did it.

I feel certain my wife and a new coworker would have had at least a fling if I had not seen it coming. The office went out for drinks and I was specifically told I would be baby sitting where usually I would catch up to them.

When she came home, I gave her the "next time this happens you things will be on the front porch". No more problems, it actually turned her on that her man was furiously jealous.


----------



## turnera

Remember that it's a marathon, not a sprint. He will be in pain for years, so you'll just have to accept dealing with a man in pain, for years.


----------



## The Middleman

chapparal said:


> and I was specifically told I would be baby sitting where usually I would catch up to them.


Wow, I'm surprised you let even that happen.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, I do think this is one of the couples that can reconcile and make their marriage better. They have been to the precipice and stepped back. They were meant for each other. I think the root of this is Mrs. M's having a child, growing older, taking on more work to camoufloge a the fact that she was now a wife and a mother. Juggling a career and being a mother is very hard. The more Mr. M took on, the freer and further from reality she became.

Then something exciting came out of left field and she was already half lost.

I don't see why so many here are against the R. There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. She has offered to do anything and has done so.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative and calculating. But hardly incredible. More like adolescent level. There's no genius here.
> 
> This post is a good example of a full-grown adult playing victim to someone a decade younger. It is again hardly "incredible". Merely adolescent level blame-shifting.
> 
> The husband acknowledges the obvious signals students send us when they're infatuated. A person with this much experience, especially if they are reasonably attractive, knows this instantly when they see it.
> 
> We can do the smack-down straight away, generally an average of one student per class I'd say in my experience, or we can milk it along with mixed signals. One good manipulative approach is to tell the prospective shag that your husband thinks he's a threat. Instead of a strong smack-down like "Let's make this clear: this is a teacher-student relationship. I'm happily married."
> 
> That's how you manipulate the prospective shag. Then you manipulate the husband and the people looking on by saying you gave this signal to the prospective shag as a way of protecting your marriage. It's almost as protective as showing a man your breasts and saying "you aren't interested in these, are you?"
> 
> His answer too - so utterly predictable: to lie in order to establish the mutual compact that you're both going to continue on getting more deeply involved by pretending there's nothing going on. It's the "Let's lie about what we're doing" compact.
> 
> A manipulative person is all about evading responsibility, and that's why instead of taking on the responsibility and telling the student that YOU think he's a threat to the marriage, the issue is posed as a concern of the _husband_. A decent wife ought to be sounding the five-alarm fire if the husband is voicing a concern about a threat to the marriage. She should be pouring buckets of cold water over that kid and putting out what she acknowledges herself is a fire because the husband detected it. Instead of playing dumb.


I called you a jerk in DrM thread. Sorry about that. This post is awesome!


----------



## Chaparral

The Middleman said:


> Wow, I'm surprised you let even that happen.


I did not think anything could happen under the circumstances since I knew everyone going for drinks. The potential OM was/is a player and has never married. Plus I had about three hours to stew on it.

I have no doubt what would have happened if this had turned into a regular event though my wife is sure to disagree.


----------



## Racer

chapparal said:


> This A was more drawn out but even Mr. M said he doesn't think she thoght it through. At some point, biology took over, and the brain was left out of the equation. Smart people do stupid things and then do not understand how they did it.


Gonna call bull on that. Did you forget she was in MC for an EA with this very guy before deciding to "step it up" and go PA? I have no idea how much more informed she could have been of the ramifications of adultery beyond being cheated on herself. You can not convince me it didn't cross her mind about the ramifications to her marriage and she still made the choice to go with hormones and denial.

Edit... and btw I'm pro-R. He did give it a chance.... She used it up.


----------



## Wazza

Racer said:


> Gonna call bull on that. Did you forget she was in MC for an EA with this very guy before deciding to "step it up" and go PA? I have no idea how much more informed she could have been of the ramifications of adultery beyond being cheated on herself. You can not convince me it didn't cross her mind about the ramifications to her marriage and she still made the choice to go with hormones and denial.
> 
> Edit... and btw I'm pro-R. He did give it a chance.... She used it up.


Is false reconciliation and counselling without full admission of the facts that unusual? I think not.


----------



## Numbersixxx

chapparal said:


> BTW, I do think this is one of the couples that can reconcile and make their marriage better. They have been to the precipice and stepped back. *They were meant for each other.* I think the root of this is Mrs. M's having a child, growing older, taking on more work to camoufloge a the fact that she was now a wife and a mother. Juggling a career and being a mother is very hard. The more Mr. M took on, the freer and further from reality she became.
> 
> Then something exciting came out of left field and she was already half lost.
> 
> I don't see why so many here are against the R. There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. She has offered to do anything and has done so.


*
Oh, come on… lets not start getting ridiculous. There is no such thing as “meant for each other”. This whole soul mate concept is just preposterous. We have 7 billion people on this world. What are the chances of finding your soul mate? Statistically insignificant. Your probability of winning consecutively the lottery is higher. There are just people with more or less similar value system that we can get along with. All other transcendent nonsense attributed to the “romantic love” notion can be explained by our brain chemistry during the acts of courtship and sex.*


Also…yes, there is some animosity towards MrsM here and for good reasons. 

It is almost axiomatic that if she is a cheater she is also a liar. When she was done with the cheater part (because her boy-toy dropped her and moved town, not because she felt guilt for what she was doing) she continued with her lying part. Even when Doc confronted her the last time, after he learned more about the affair from other sources, her first reaction was to lie. This is a major problem of her character, she only admits wrong doing when confronted with independent proof. To me this indicates a lack of conscience and sincere remorse. All that is known about the affair was learned from other sources.

She even came here with her first thread, and it got later exposed as being just a calculated plan to gain sympathy and to continue deceiving her husband. So, she was also lying to the posters here, and although this is the internet, most people don’t like being directly insulted that way. Even through a computer screen. In my opinion, this is the main reason a great number posters dislike her.

She may play the “I don’t know what I was doing” excuse now, but to me her behavior indicates a much more calculating nature of her actions. For example, she conspired with her students to plan her romantic goodbye with OB. All this while in false R. Yes, she is behaving like a decent human being now, but all her actions and talk can be explained with her being in a damage control mode. We can see that she is smart. She knows the repercussions of being exposed an adulterous wife and an unethical teacher.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Wazza said:


> Is false reconciliation and counselling without full admission of the facts that unusual? I think not.


Yeah, it is probably not that unusual. Looks like it is also pretty usual to escalate your affair while doing MC and pretending to be in R. Unfortunately…


----------



## Racer

Wazza said:


> Is false reconciliation and counselling without full admission of the facts that unusual? I think not.


Yes... That lying about the extent is usual. That isn't what happened if I have the story straight.

They were in counceling because she was getting to chummy with the OM (EA). At some point (after months of this MC), she was worried about the OM... started figuring out how to hide contact better, dropping off books, etc. Then let it continue to develop underground until they had sex. Then they continued to have sex letting her husband believe this was all behind them. Until caught.

The MC and getting caught in an "improper relationship" happened before the actual physical affair took place. It wasn't just "forgetting to mention" the extent sort of false R. It was the "I decided to screw around some more" sort of false R.


----------



## Acabado

Racer, read the timeline. It was a PA already, she only admited kiss but there was a BJ which she didn't admit after DDay.


----------



## jim123

chapparal said:


> BTW, I do think this is one of the couples that can reconcile and make their marriage better. They have been to the precipice and stepped back. They were meant for each other. I think the root of this is Mrs. M's having a child, growing older, taking on more work to camoufloge a the fact that she was now a wife and a mother. Juggling a career and being a mother is very hard. The more Mr. M took on, the freer and further from reality she became.
> 
> Then something exciting came out of left field and she was already half lost.
> 
> I don't see why so many here are against the R. There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. She has offered to do anything and has done so.


I agree with parts of this. She withdrew from Matt and son. She was confused between Matt and a man(boy) who would not be a good husband or a good father. That is a very bad combination that is a big concern. 

I am not as sure she is doing this for the right reasons and will eventually leave Matt one way or another.


----------



## Kasler

chapparal said:


> BTW, I do think this is one of the couples that can reconcile and make their marriage better. They have been to the precipice and stepped back. They were meant for each other. I think the root of this is Mrs. M's having a child, growing older, taking on more work to camoufloge a the fact that she was now a wife and a mother. Juggling a career and being a mother is very hard. The more Mr. M took on, the freer and further from reality she became.
> 
> Then something exciting came out of left field and she was already half lost.
> 
> *I don't see why so many here are against the R.* There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. She has offered to do anything and has done so.


-Because there needed to be four DDays. 

-Because she has not fully taken responsibility for her affair by allowing Matt in his BS fog to hold thoughts of "She didn't know what she was doing" When she knew exactly what she was doing. 
Hes currently saying "her affair was not malicious" but its like what was he expecting was her to be rubbing her hands together and cackling with an evil laugh, when the fact is thats no comfort at all since affairs are rarely like that in first place and it doesn't change the fact that nearly a decade and a half of a relationship wasn't worth a damn when she was having her affair.

-That she initiated first false R for the sole reason of OM leaving.

-She has yet to see OM for just what he is. While shes not lying about it, it doesn't make it make it any better that still sees him as a coward but halfway decent.

-She has yet to acknowledge that she has huge problems within her, that this incident is a product of them, not just a string of bad decisions out of the blue.


And that leads to the biggest reason.

The woman that put a 21 yr old pot smoking kid over a loving husband, 14 years of marriage and a young child. 

The woman that had to go through four DDays

The woman that compulsively lied, and continued an affair after being busted the first time. 

The woman that can rationalize any idea in her head as long as she wants to bad enough. 

*-This woman is still in the building. *

Maybe a bit buried, maybe feeling guilty, but the woman that could, after NC, rationalize giving OM a few books all the way to polishing his whistle as completely okay is definitely still here. 

People can change, but not quickly, not by much(especially in their age), and certainly not in the span of one month. And when she doesn't even acknowledge these issues, theres no hope of them ever being fixed.

Maybe not now, or a year from now, or ten years from now, but that selfish rationalizing mindset can easily reemerge at anytime, and the doc is gonna find himself in this situation again. I think people who've read Bandit's thread should know this. 

Matt is currently in a form of BS fog(although minor) and has his nose wide open although he doesn't realize it(which is usually the case). 

Hes pretty much deciding on walking into a haunted house thinking the only thing wrong is a leaky faucet. 

He has no clue, and she has no clue, so R with these current circumstances is a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> BTW, I do think this is one of the couples that can reconcile and make their marriage better. They have been to the precipice and stepped back. They were meant for each other. I think the root of this is Mrs. M's having a child, growing older, taking on more work to camoufloge a the fact that she was now a wife and a mother. Juggling a career and being a mother is very hard. The more Mr. M took on, the freer and further from reality she became.
> 
> Then something exciting came out of left field and she was already half lost.
> 
> I don't see why so many here are against the R. There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. *She has offered to do anything and has done so.*


What has she done?


----------



## survivorwife

bfree said:


> What has she done?


She posted here. Ain't that the criteria for most of the WS's to get an automatic "pass" into R; when they come to this forum and read the scripts offered by TAM posters and get to know what is expected of them, then respond with the "right script".


----------



## Shaggy

Kasler - really nailed it.

Kasler - I hope you post that over in Matts thread so he see it.


----------



## turnera

We've already been over this several times, and she has done more than most FWWs.


----------



## cpacan

I think Kaslers post is excellent as well. I agree with most of his assesments, and I also agree that noone can change completely in a month.

Where I would like to differentiate is, that I don't believe that change is a state you can reach. Personal development and change is a proces you can commit yourself to. MrsM can commit herself to this proces and that's about it. Whether R is possible or not depends on her commitment to the proces and whether Matt will acknowledge her commitment and believe in a change for the better.

So, Mrs_Mathias, do you commit to the proces which may take years and years of hard work?


----------



## turnera

She has already said, ad nauseum, that she does.


----------



## The Middleman

chapparal said:


> I don't see why so many here are against the R. There are almost always more than one DDays. This affair was sillier than most. Even ridiculous. But I have not seen one case here, where the WW wife after seeing what she has done has tried harder and done the right thing better. She has offered to do anything and has done so.


I'll tell you why I will never recommend "R" here or in a few of the other "high profile" "Rs" here. I put myself in the shoes of the BS and say what can I live with and still maintain my self respect. If my wife had an emotional/texting affair (DDay 1), and I caught her, and I eventually found out that not only did she continue the affair but also took it physical (DDay 2), there is a level of deceit and defiance that I could not live with coming from the person I should trust the most. Reason 1 why I couldn't reconcile.

Reason 2, the physical affair. I'm old school. When my wife married me, her "lady parts" stopped being her own; she shares them with me and they are part mine. The fact that she allowed another man to "soil her" (protected or unprotected sex) ... by allowing him inside her ... is a hump I just couldn't get over. If the sex was unprotected and she brought the OM's filth home into my bed, she would have to leave the house before I found out about it because there is no telling what I would do. To take her back after this would mean that I would have no remaining self respect. I get nothing back for the pain I went through, NOTHING! I might as well give her my balls to wear around her neck in triumph.

Reason 3, continued lying, DDay 3 in this case. At this point you don't know what's true and what isn't. How can I live with my wife if I can't trust what comes out of her mouth. My biggest concern here is how can I be sure she won't do it again? I can't live in that fear.

I know I'm projecting my values and emotions on Dr. Matt (or any other BS here) when I give advice, but in the end, that's all I can do. It's up to them to take the advice or leave it. All I know is I would rather be alone or without sex (which I won't be) than to live without my self respect or have to take any of the other extraordinary measures some BS's take just so I can stand looking at my wife again. That's not me. As I've said here before, somethings can't be fixed and somethings should not be forgiven. Just my opinion.


----------



## cpacan

The Middleman said:


> I'll tell you why I will never recommend "R" here or in a few of the other "high profile" "Rs" here. I put myself in the shoes of the BS and say what can I live with and still maintain my self respect. If my wife had an emotional/texting affair (DDay 1), and I caught her, and I eventually found out that not only did she continue the affair but also took it physical (DDay 2), there is a level of deceit and defiance that I could not live with coming from the person I should trust the most. Reason 1 why I couldn't reconcile.
> 
> Reason 2, the physical affair. I'm old school. When my wife married me, her "lady parts" stopped being her own; she shares them with me and they are part mine. The fact that she allowed another man to "soil her" (protected or unprotected sex) ... by allowing him inside her ... is a hump I just couldn't get over. If the sex was unprotected and she brought the OM's filth home into my bed, she would have to leave the house before I found out about it because there is no telling what I would do. To take her back after this would mean that I would have no remaining self respect. I get nothing back for the pain I went through, NOTHING! I might as well give her my balls to wear around her neck in triumph.
> 
> Reason 3, continued lying, DDay 3 in this case. At this point you don't know what's true and what isn't. How can I live with my wife if I can't trust what comes out of her mouth. My biggest concern here is how can I be sure she won't do it again? I can't live in that fear.
> 
> I know I'm projecting my values and emotions on Dr. Matt (or any other BS here) when I give advice, but in the end, that's all I can do. It's up to them to take the advice or leave it. All I know is I would rather be alone or without sex (which I won't be) than to live without my self respect or have to take any of the other extraordinary measures some BS's take just so I can stand looking at my wife again. That's not me. As I've said here before, somethings can't be fixed and somethings should not be forgiven. Just my opinion.


And exactly how do you think all this helps MrsM (OP) Cope With Infidelity? She is not a BS.


----------



## Racer

Sorry... long. Still haven’t figured out how write briefly.... 


Acabado said:


> Racer, read the timeline. It was a PA already, she only admited kiss but there was a BJ which she didn't admit after Dday.


Ah... sorry for my confusion. Still doesn’t change the fact that she was offered R, and took the affair underground. So... From her BH standpoint, he thought they were in R and getting help. She led him to believe this. Then crushed him AGAIN when caught continuing.

Been there done that. If you believe the first is hard, it’s ten fold worse the second time. See, with the first, you still have that little guy on your shoulder telling you she made a mistake. You are still making excuses for her and empathetic. That may be what she burned out of him; His belief in her as a person of character.

Every single word and action during MC gets obliterated as a lie as well as the value of marriage counseling.... Her BH will not know what he can or can not believe because now she has shown herself to be something far worse than he thought. For me, trust was destroyed with the first R. My remaining belief in her was shattered on the second. 

It puts Matt in a horrible place. The first DD takes a fire of love and compassion for your spouse and reduces it to embers; Yet he is still a believer in her since he offered R. With a good R, she can stoke that fire back up. Instead, she threw fake stage prop logs in there and smothered what was left. There are now just some hot coals, and Matt will be extremely dubious of anything she does (a lot more so than during the first R). Now words/actions do not matter much or hold much weight at all; He’s already heard those words and seen those actions. 

Here is where things really shift. The target shifts from the affair and who she was at that time to her as a person NOW and whether or not she is worth it. She learned nothing the first round. 

Its why I’m sort of advising Matt to take my route. Let the marriage die and the relationship continue. I even like his symbology of the divorce; It is a clear ramification and sets the new tone that she needs to be worth a proposal. Think of it like dating again. He can go at his own pace, live his life again as an individual and stoke the fire with his estranged wife himself. If she is worth it, he’ll be able to do this. If she isn’t, he can also extinguish it. 

All she can do at this point is rebuild herself and hope he values her. He’s going to watch closely; So all I can really advise MrsMathias is to absolutely true to yourself. Everytime he spots you polishing your mask manipulating his perception of you, he’s going to stomp out part of his fire. (This includes little things absolutely unrelated to adultery). He knows, without a doubt, you aren’t perfect, so allow your flaws to show and truly acknowledge them. 

Communication is key. He is going to need more than anything else to know what is going on in your head. Share every single thing about ‘what makes you tick’. Do not continue to focus specifically on marriage issues or adultery. That chance is gone. Now you need to prove who you are as a person so he can judge you and decide for himself the direction of the relationship he is willing to offer.


----------



## The Middleman

cpacan said:


> And exactly how do you think all this helps MrsM (OP) Cope With Infidelity? She is not a BS.


I was trying to answer chapparal's question in this tread as to _"I don't see why so many here are against the R"._ If it's not relevant then people don't have to read it.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> We've already been over this several times, and she has done more than most FWWs.


She's said some things, admitted some things (reluctantly over time) and started counseling. What has she sacrificed? Job? Career? What? Has she thrown away each and every article of clothing she wore while she was with her lover? Has she given up anything to repair the damage and help heal Matt? Other than a few pretty words I don't see what she has done even in comparison to other fWW here on TAM.


----------



## survivorwife

The Middleman said:


> I was trying to answer chapparal's question in this tread as to _"I don't see why so many here are against the R"._ If it's not relevant then people don't have to read it.


It's relevant and points out to the OP, who is not a BS, just what exactly the cost could be for her A, if MrMatt so chooses. The end result of the betrayal is not up to OP, but solely at the discretion of the BS. It's entirely on her to fix this mess she created of her marriage since she was the one that broke it. 

Maybe she will do so when she gets back from her 3 week production. Or maybe she won't. Or maybe DrMatt will decide she isn't worth it. Or maybe he will. None on which would be up for discussion had the OP not had an A, and lied about it etc.


----------



## Wazza

Racer said:


> Sorry... long. Still haven’t figured out how write briefly....
> 
> Ah... sorry for my confusion. Still doesn’t change the fact that she was offered R, and took the affair underground. So... From her BH standpoint, he thought they were in R and getting help. She led him to believe this. Then crushed him AGAIN when caught continuing.
> 
> Been there done that. If you believe the first is hard, it’s ten fold worse the second time. See, with the first, you still have that little guy on your shoulder telling you she made a mistake. You are still making excuses for her and empathetic. That may be what she burned out of him; His belief in her as a person of character.
> 
> Every single word and action during MC gets obliterated as a lie as well as the value of marriage counseling.... Her BH will not know what he can or can not believe because now she has shown herself to be something far worse than he thought. For me, trust was destroyed with the first R. My remaining belief in her was shattered on the second.
> 
> It puts Matt in a horrible place. The first DD takes a fire of love and compassion for your spouse and reduces it to embers; Yet he is still a believer in her since he offered R. With a good R, she can stoke that fire back up. Instead, she threw fake stage prop logs in there and smothered what was left. There are now just some hot coals, and Matt will be extremely dubious of anything she does (a lot more so than during the first R). Now words/actions do not matter much or hold much weight at all; He’s already heard those words and seen those actions.
> 
> Here is where things really shift. The target shifts from the affair and who she was at that time to her as a person NOW and whether or not she is worth it. She learned nothing the first round.
> 
> Its why I’m sort of advising Matt to take my route. Let the marriage die and the relationship continue. I even like his symbology of the divorce; It is a clear ramification and sets the new tone that she needs to be worth a proposal. Think of it like dating again. He can go at his own pace, live his life again as an individual and stoke the fire with his estranged wife himself. If she is worth it, he’ll be able to do this. If she isn’t, he can also extinguish it.
> 
> All she can do at this point is rebuild herself and hope he values her. He’s going to watch closely; So all I can really advise MrsMathias is to absolutely true to yourself. Everytime he spots you polishing your mask manipulating his perception of you, he’s going to stomp out part of his fire. (This includes little things absolutely unrelated to adultery). He knows, without a doubt, you aren’t perfect, so allow your flaws to show and truly acknowledge them.
> 
> Communication is key. He is going to need more than anything else to know what is going on in your head. Share every single thing about ‘what makes you tick’. Do not continue to focus specifically on marriage issues or adultery. That chance is gone. Now you need to prove who you are as a person so he can judge you and decide for himself the direction of the relationship he is willing to offer.


This is spot on. I would offer the one observation that for me, the little guy on the shoulder was right that she made a mistake, and that the months of my wife's affair were a continuation of the mistake, not a new mistake. I think the same is true for MrsM.

While I did not divorce, I did regard the old marriage as dead and rebuilt. Slowly.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> This is spot on. I would offer the one observation that for me, the little guy on the shoulder was right that she made a mistake, and that the months of my wife's affair were a *continuation of the mistake, not a new mistake. I think the same is true for MrsM.*
> 
> While I did not divorce, I did regard the old marriage as dead and rebuilt. Slowly.


Really? You really gonna try to get away with one? Really? Do I even need to break it down?

You post some good stuff Wazza I'll admit, but that concept of a continuation of a single mistake is total soft serving and minimization of the harsh truth and completely false.

Also, I hate seeing the word 'mistake' on this forum. Only mistake I've properly seen is when someone mistakenly holds off on exposure.

What you are talking about however is a Choice or a Decision.


----------



## The Middleman

Wazza said:


> This is spot on. I would offer the one observation that for me, the little guy on the shoulder was right that she made a mistake, and that the months of my wife's affair were a continuation of the mistake, not a new mistake. I think the same is true for MrsM.
> 
> While I did not divorce, I did regard the old marriage as dead and rebuilt. Slowly.


Was the continuation of the sexual relationship after being caught a mistake or a choice on the part of MrsM? I say it was a choice. Just because it was the same man does not make it any better. It's actually an act of defiance against Dr. Matt and giving him the FU finger and saying "I'll F**k who I want to F**k".

Edit: Being caught is being put on notice. Continuing the affair is an act of disrespect and defiance. At that point she is not worthy of reconciliation.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Really? You really gonna try to get away with one? Really? Do I even need to break it down?


Go ahead. Make my day.


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> Was the continuation of the sexual relationship after being caught a mistake or a choice on the part of MrsM? I say it was a choice. Just because it was the same man does not make it any better. It's actually an act of defiance against Dr. Matt and giving him the FU finger and saying "I'll F**k who I want to F**k".


It was certainly a choice. If she wants to be married it was also a hell of a mistake.

I make allowances that the fog clouded my wife's judgement, and acknowledge the possibility that it also clouded MrsMs.

I don't know if it was a conscious act of defiance in MrsM's case.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> Go ahead. Make my day.


Consider it made

- Not shutting down EA before it happened. 

-Made a pass at OM by informing her 'husband's worries' of an affair. She might as well have said 'There is definitely an attraction between us and I want to explore it." 

-Every single act of sex counts as a betrayal and individual bad decision, period. 

-Initial false R. Led The Doc on false pretenses, and only after OM left

-I'll count the constant lying as one although I shouldn't, but then there'd be too many to list

-Smoking pot with OM and then immediately working while under some residual effects, effectively risking her job,* AND THE WELFARE OF YOUNG CHILD* dependent upon her and Matt's joined income. 

- Continued sex with Dr Matt risking his health to an STD. 

-Continued Skyping OM, Breaking NC

- More Sex meet ups. 

-Taking Dr matt to this forum and lying even here as a way to manipulate him.(would be different if she told full truth the first time, but I think even you'd agree that the main purpose of lies to to hide the truth from someone and keep them in the dark I.E manipulate their actions/reactions) 

Need I go on?


----------



## The Middleman

Wazza said:


> It was certainly a choice. If she wants to be married it was also a hell of a mistake.


I'll agree to that ..... with the exception that the "mistake choice" should not be forgiven. She is not worthy of reconciliation IMO.



Wazza said:


> I make allowances that the fog clouded my wife's judgement, and acknowledge the possibility that it also clouded MrsMs.


Let's just agree to disagree. F**k the fog. We are humans and we are better than that. I make no allowances for the fog; you can if you want. 



Wazza said:


> I don't know if it was a conscious act of defiance in MrsM's case.


I've read through all the discussions and it seems that the OM didn't take MrsMatt by force, so I'm going to assume that her actions were a conscious decision and I'll hold her accountable for her behavior, which was defying and disrespecting her husband.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Consider it made
> 
> - Not shutting down EA before it happened.
> 
> -Made a pass at OM by informing her 'husband's worries' of an affair. She might as well have said 'There is definitely an attraction between us and I want to explore it."
> 
> -Every single act of sex counts as a betrayal and individual bad decision, period.
> 
> -Initial false R. Led The Doc on false pretenses, and only after OM left
> 
> -I'll count the constant lying as one although I shouldn't, but then there'd be too many to list
> 
> -Smoking pot with OM and then immediately working while under some residual effects, effectively risking her job,* AND THE WELFARE OF YOUNG CHILD* dependent upon her and Matt's joined income.
> 
> - Continued sex with Dr Matt risking his health to an STD.
> 
> -Continued Skyping OM, Breaking NC
> 
> - More Sex meet ups.
> 
> -Taking Dr matt to this forum and lying even here as a way to manipulate him.(would be different if she told full truth the first time, but I think even you'd agree that the main purpose of lies to to hide the truth from someone and keep them in the dark I.E manipulate their actions/reactions)
> 
> Need I go on?


Well, you might like to show how this contradicts what I said. 

I said the affair was a mistake, you listed elements of the mistake.


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> I'll agree to that ..... with the exception that the "mistake choice" should not be forgiven. She is not worthy of reconciliation IMO.
> 
> 
> Let's just agree to disagree. F**k the fog. We are humans and we are better than that. I make no allowances for the fog; you can if you want.
> 
> 
> I've read through all the discussions and it seems that the OM didn't take MrsMatt by force, so I'm going to assume that her actions were a conscious decision and I'll hold her accountable for her behavior, which was defying and disrespecting her husband.


Fair enough re the fog.

Agree totally that MrsM made MANY conscious choices. Don't know that they were framed in her head as acts of defiance.


----------



## KanDo

A mistake is a blunder or misinterpretation; an error. The choices in an affair are not mistakes. They are poor decisions.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Fair enough re the fog.
> 
> Agree totally that MrsM made MANY conscious choices. Don't know that they were framed in her head as acts of defiance.


I won't say that they were acts of defiance. I will describe them as acts of ambivalence toward her marriage and acts of total disrespect toward her husband. I am not against R in cases of adultery. I am against R in cases of adultery where the cheater does not actively work to repair the damage. I don't believe Mrs M has actively worked to repair the damage. In fact, I don't think she has even done as much as the infamous Alleybabe did during her false R. And please do not compare her to the other fWS here on TAM (not specifically directed at you Wazza). I have seen countless acts of sacrifice by many here on TAM. I have yet to be shown any sacrifice by this fWS.


----------



## Kasler

Wazza said:


> Well, you might like to show how this contradicts what I said.
> 
> I said the affair was a mistake, you listed elements of the mistake.


Nope. Each one was a decision. 

You can keep calling it a mistake if you like(maybe thats how you do it in whatever you call R) but it doesn't change what it is.


----------



## Wazza

KanDo said:


> A mistake is a blunder or misinterpretation; an error. The choices in an affair are not mistakes. They are poor decisions.


We agree that she made conscious choices. We agree that she cannot continue to make such choices and expect to stay married, even if she is given another chance.

I find the notion of a mistake useful to differentiate between a spouse who acted out of character vs one who thinks cheating is ok provided you don't get caught. But we can agree to disagree on that detail.


----------



## cpacan

Just thought I would share the first definition of the term mistake I could find:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=mistake


----------



## The Middleman

Wazza said:


> Agree totally that MrsM made MANY conscious choices. Don't know that they were framed in her head as acts of defiance.


Well, then let's just agree to disagree. I don't know what else you can call F**king some strange guy who is not your husband, AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN CAUGHT AND ASKED NOT TO, anything other than an act of defiance. But what do I know .... after all, I haven't had to live through this stuff, really. (and there is a reason for that)


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> Nope. Each one was a decision.
> 
> You can keep calling it a mistake if you like(maybe thats how you do it in whatever you call R) but it doesn't change what it is.


I agree it was a series of conscious decisions.


----------



## JMGrey

Wazza said:


> I agree it was a series of conscious decisions.


Then I fail to see why you're making the distinction between someone who does something "out of character" and someone that does something because they enjoy doing it. For the record, I ontologically reject the idea that someone can do something "out of character." If someone does something by force of volition and uncoerced action, then it is essentially a part of one's character. Such a discovery, the loss of one's mental self-image as a good, faithful spouse, is understandably disconcerting and it's probably why the majority of blame-shifting and equivocation goes on.

Whatever the case, no cheater other than an one that openly cuckolds (I use this in equal appreciation of gender) their spouse believes that cheating is okay. If they did, they wouldn't hide it. And no cheater ever cheats (initially at least) for any other reason than they enjoy it the idea of it. Period.


----------



## warlock07

I'm repeating it here but she knew well enough that Matt will probably divorce her if he found out what she was doing. And it did not happen just once or in the heat of the moment. They planned it. She fulfilled OM fantasies. (Was it the sound room ? )

I don't understand why she wants to reconcile now. She made her choice. She even had her farewell f*ck. And this was during her false R. I don't think she is clear about her reasons to reconcile.


----------



## Wazza

JMGrey said:


> Then I fail to see why you're making the distinction between someone who does something "out of character" and someone that does something because they enjoy doing it. For the record, I ontologically reject the idea that someone can do something "out of character." If some does something by force of volition and uncoerced action, then it is essentially a part of one's character. Such a discovery, the loss of one's mental self-image as a good, faithful spouse, is understandably disconcerting and it's probably why the majority of blame-shifting and equivocation goes on.
> 
> Whatever the case, no cheater other than an one that openly cuckolds (I use this in equal appreciation of gender) their spouse believes that cheating is okay. If they did, they wouldn't hide it. And no cheater ever cheats (initially at least) for any other reason than they enjoy it the idea of it. Period.


There are people who think "What's the harm. It doesn't hurt my spouse if they don't know." Or even "they won't leave me over this, I can do what I want." That is what I mean by people who think it is ok.

Your discussion of enjoyment seems irrelevant to me. I didn't Akers the distinction you describe at the start f your post.


----------



## JMGrey

Wazza said:


> There are people who think "What's the harm. It doesn't hurt my spouse if they don't know." Or even "they won't leave me over this, I can do what I want." That is what I mean by people who think it is ok.


In the first case, by virtue of the conscious decision that the affair needs to be hidden, even for the BSs "own good", one has logical proof that the cheater knows that their action is objectively wrong. In the second, the spouse doesn't deny that infidelity is objectively wrong, merely makes the mental determination that consequences are unlikely. An act _malum in se_, is still objectively wrong despite adverse consequences not resulting or not likely being resultant.



Wazza said:


> Your discussion of enjoyment seems irrelevant to me. I didn't Akers the distinction you describe at the start f your post.


It was to address the fundamental reason that infidelity occurs, in opposition to the idea that it's a result of mistake. It is nothing more or less than an unbecoming arrangement of priorities: pleasure (emotional/physical) > (fidelity, respect, charity for self and spouse).


----------



## Racer

Wazza said:


> This is spot on. I would offer the one observation that for me, the little guy on the shoulder was right that she made a mistake, and that the months of my wife's affair were a continuation of the mistake, not a new mistake. I think the same is true for MrsM.
> 
> While I did not divorce, I did regard the old marriage as dead and rebuilt. Slowly.


That’s just semantics. Mistake or whatever... The fact is that she researched what a “remorseful wayward” is supposed to look like and do. She used forums, books, and counseling. Then she played the role for Matt. 

The ONLY person who knows if this time is real or just another act is MrsMathias. There is no way us or DrMathias will ever know. The false R added the fact that she is WILLING to play the part of “remorseful wayward” without actually being one. While that is a worry (and a real fear) for most starting down the path of R, it is now an unerasable fact in this marriage. The fear was realized. 

So... to put it in perspective. Do you remember how hard of a choice it was for you to decide to R? Remember all the waffling and questioning yourself whether you can forgive her? I’ll bet, like most, your rock, your binding belief was that deep down your wife was worth it. Right now you are probably thinking she is. Now imagine you were wrong! You just found out your own wife is continuing affairs after you’ve been going through all this. That is DrMathias’s reality now. Is it “just as bad” as the original sin, or oh so much worse? Technically, it is continued from the prior sin.... but it is much worse to deal with.


----------



## Wazza

Racer said:


> That’s just semantics. Mistake or whatever... The fact is that she researched what a “remorseful wayward” is supposed to look like and do. She used forums, books, and counseling. Then she played the role for Matt.
> 
> The ONLY person who knows if this time is real or just another act is MrsMathias. There is no way us or DrMathias will ever know. The false R added the fact that she is WILLING to play the part of “remorseful wayward” without actually being one. While that is a worry (and a real fear) for most starting down the path of R, it is now an unerasable fact in this marriage. The fear was realized.
> 
> So... to put it in perspective. Do you remember how hard of a choice it was for you to decide to R? Remember all the waffling and questioning yourself whether you can forgive her? I’ll bet, like most, your rock, your binding belief was that deep down your wife was worth it. Right now you are probably thinking she is. Now imagine you were wrong! You just found out your own wife is continuing affairs after you’ve been going through all this. That is DrMathias’s reality now. Is it “just as bad” as the original sin, or oh so much worse? Technically, it is continued from the prior sin.... but it is much worse to deal with.


My wife continued and concealed for about six months after discovery. I don't need to imagine, I can remember.

Discussion of the word "mistake" is semantics. Whether my wife struggled to end one affair, vs ending it then starting another, was a significant difference to me. The difference between reconciling and not. Not semantics at all.


----------



## JCD

turnera said:


> She has already said, ad nauseum, that she does.


Agreed. Saying she will move as necessary to stay near her kid is something big. DOING it is bigger.

Gentlemen, get a frigging grip! She is taking a CHAPERONE with her on this trip. A GROWN woman! Do you know how humiliating that is? What is necessary? A biometric chastity belt ?...(note to self, look into this niche market...)

IIRC she is not bringing her computer with her, so we are essentially talking behind her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrMathias

JCD said:


> IIRC she is not bringing her computer with her, so we are essentially talking behind her back.


She has her iPhone, and I suspect she'll be checking in here, not sure how often. She was in the ER last night from flu-like symptoms and slept in this morning. MrsM just left a couple hours ago and had to cancel the first rehearsal. Off to a great start...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## survivorwife

JCD said:


> Agreed. Saying she will move as necessary to stay near her kid is something big. DOING it is bigger.
> 
> Gentlemen, get a frigging grip! She is taking a CHAPERONE with her on this trip. A GROWN woman! Do you know how humiliating that is? What is necessary? A biometric chastity belt ?...(note to self, look into this niche market...)
> 
> IIRC she is not bringing her computer with her, so we are essentially talking behind her back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As a "grown woman"myself, It is, again, a question of semantics whether we use the word "chaperone" as a ruse, or if this "chaperone" is just another female to hang with during the down time. Humiliating? Like hanging out with my mom,sister or best female friend while away from my spouse? And that is supposed to be "humiliating"?

And I suppose just about anyone with a cell phone or access to a school building will have access to the internet if need be.

Welcome to the year 2013. This grown woman is traveling with a companion and will certainly have access to whatever modern conveniences as well as companionship as she desires.


----------



## Wiserforit

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Overall, I would say the holidays were FAR better than I could have expected.


You got that right. 

So the prognosis on this one is that you're going to get away with it. 

I've got quite a bit of experience with gifted manipulators and you're actually not all that good. You've got the ideal targets here with conscientious people. That's why this is working for you. 

Dr. George Simon has written two books that are spot-on for a person of your character. For people looking on I would recommend "In Sheep's Clothing - Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People". It's been on the best-seller list for years because it is such a compelling work.

This is going to go back all the way to childhood where lessons were learned in manipulative arts and copied by example. One of the problems in theater is that it is an arena where acting (duh) skills are honed, and manipulators are actors. 

Prior to the arrival of Dr. Simon's work there was too much feeling sorry for manipulators, the idea that they suffered from trauma in childhood and were making up for their neurosis and low self-esteem with manipulative tactics. But the breakthrough in Dr. Simon's work is that the problem is actually the opposite - the lack of conscience. Manipulators do what works because they have no conscience about it. They aren't making up for a damaged conscience with feelings of inferiority. Their conscience is impaired, for lack of it, and they think they're smarter than every one else. Looking down on them for having consciences. It is a weakness as far as they're concerned. 

There is zero need to make you "see" that your behaviour is wrong. Nobody knows better than you exactly what you are up to. What you are monitoring is what works for you, and since the husband and family are being so conscientious in letting you get away with outrageous behavior then you'll do just enough to keep things the way you want instead of changing your character fundamentally. 

What needs to be fixed here is the husband. To come to the realization that he has been trusting to the point of gullibility and that he needs to develop his radar for manipulative people. To spot the leaopards in the grass. He will have been victim to a lot of them through his lifetime. They can spot him in an instant, just as you did. You saw he was honest and trusting to a fault when you met him. 

Obviously you have to put on a more convincing act after getting busted with all the prior shennanigans. But since you are dealing with amateurs this isn't going to be so hard.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Agreed. Saying she will move as necessary to stay near her kid is something big. DOING it is bigger.
> 
> *So staying in proximity to her child is a sacrifice? I hope I'm not understanding you correctly here.*
> 
> Gentlemen, get a frigging grip! She is taking a CHAPERONE with her on this trip. A GROWN woman! Do you know how humiliating that is?
> 
> *Not nearly as humiliating as what Matt has had to deal with wouldn't you say?*
> 
> What is necessary? A biometric chastity belt ?...(note to self, look into this niche market...)
> 
> *No, she has already proven to be very resourceful when it comes to getting what she wants.*
> 
> IIRC she is not bringing her computer with her, so we are essentially talking behind her back.
> 
> *Turnabout is fair play. She talked behind Matt's back for months.*


----------



## JCD

survivorwife said:


> As a "grown woman"myself, It is, again, a question of semantics whether we use the word "chaperone" as a ruse, or if this "chaperone" is just another female to hang with during the down time. Humiliating? Like hanging out with my mom,sister or best female friend while away from my spouse? And that is supposed to be "humiliating"?
> 
> And I suppose just about anyone with a cell phone or access to a school building will have access to the internet if need be.
> 
> Welcome to the year 2013. This grown woman is traveling with a companion and will certainly have access to whatever modern conveniences as well as companionship as she desires.


You have a point. Dr M was also on board with the woman choosen, but his judgement to character has not had a great heretofore.

Not sure who is correct here, but there seems to be a great deal of animosity toward this woman whom Dr. M seems to feel is authentic...albeit he is still full bore toward divorce.


----------



## survivorwife

JCD said:


> You have a point. Dr M was also on board with the woman choosen, but his judgement to character has not had a great heretofore.
> 
> Not sure who is correct here, but there seems to be a great deal of animosity toward this woman whom Dr. M seems to feel is authentic...albeit he is still full bore toward divorce.


What sort of raised my "alert" was the thought that having a traveling companion was being characterized as "humiliating". As opposed to traveling alone? The next question would be "why"? What possible difference could it make in the negative sense?

For example, during the "down time", she now has someone to dine with, shop with, talk to, laugh with, interact with etc. Humiliating? I think not. Unless there were other activities planned that did not include the "companion". And if THAT is the case, then the original plans were not above board.

Just my humble opinion.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> You have a point. Dr M was also on board with the woman choosen, but his judgement to character has not had a great heretofore.
> 
> Not sure who is correct here, but there seems to be a great deal of animosity toward this woman whom Dr. M seems to feel is authentic...albeit he is still full bore toward divorce.


Regardless of what she has done, Doc still loves her. You can't just turn off those feelings like flipping a switch. Its clouding his judgement somewhat as it would (did) most of us. Matt has asked her a simple question. "Why should we reconcile?" To date Mrs M can't give him a good answer. To me this is because she is either unwilling or unable to do the heavy lifting that would be necessary. That is why he is proceeding with the divorce....as he should.


----------



## Wiserforit

bfree said:


> Regardless of what she has done, Doc still loves her. You can't just turn off those feelings like flipping a switch.


He loves the image she carefully constructed for him.

Once he realizes that she is a chameleon that fronts one image with him and another image with the boy toy and another with administrators and another with whomever then that love is going to be replaced with something else.

Hopefully loathing. And I don't mean a juvenile kind of hatred and vindictiveness, but a recognition that whoever is inside this mask represents a danger to his welfare.


----------



## JCD

Wiserforit said:


> He loves the image she carefully constructed for him.
> 
> Once he realizes that she is a chameleon that fronts one image with him and another image with the boy toy and another with administrators and another with whomever then that love is going to be replaced with something else.
> 
> Hopefully loathing. And I don't mean a juvenile kind of hatred and vindictiveness, but a recognition that whoever is inside this mask represents a danger to his welfare.


And if YOU are wrong? Because you are a guy on the internet...just like the rest of us. You don't know her.

A bit of humility would serve all of us well. Because sociopaths are at BEST 3% of the population...and that is what you are describing.


----------



## BjornFree

JCD said:


> And if YOU are wrong? Because you are a guy on the internet...just like the rest of us. You don't know her.
> 
> A bit of humility would serve all of us well. Because sociopaths are at BEST 3% of the population...and that is what you are describing.


Some of the best judges of a person's character are strangers. Their judgement isn't colored. Sure , we don't know her. But DrM doesn't really know her either, does he? What does he know, a carefully constructed image as wiseforit says.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> My wife continued and concealed for about six months after discovery. I don't need to imagine, I can remember.
> 
> Discussion of the word "mistake" is semantics. Whether my wife struggled to end one affair, vs ending it then starting another, was a significant difference to me. The difference between reconciling and not. Not semantics at all.


And what was your reaction when you found out about your false R? Did you reason with her about the benefits of staying married to you?


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> Some of the best judges of a person's character are strangers. Their judgement isn't colored. Sure , we don't know her. But DrM doesn't really know her either, does he? What does he know, a carefully constructed image as wiseforit says.


But it is a setup to fail.

She cries, she is manipulating.

She chooses between the down side of a trip away vs staying home land both have a down side, she is setting up a love lose, therefore manipulating.

Whatever she does she is manipulating. 

It's real easy to write a book which lists every common behaviour, explains how it can manipulate, then gives it a name, so when she does it..."Look, manipulation! It is in the book!"

Maybe she is a manipulator. She has certainly done a bit of that. 

Doesn't make what Wise says right.

She had a protracted and dishonest affair That is all.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> She had a protracted and dishonest affair That is all.


I believe that is reason enough. Question, how does a BS know for certain that they're having an honest reconciliation process? And what exactly did wiseforit say? That she is good at manipulating Matt. Isn't this true? Where in his posts did he describe her as a sociopath? That was all JCD's observation.


----------



## jim123

warlock07 said:


> I'm repeating it here but she knew well enough that Matt will probably divorce her if he found out what she was doing. And it did not happen just once or in the heat of the moment. They planned it. She fulfilled OM fantasies. (Was it the sound room ? )
> 
> I don't understand why she wants to reconcile now. She made her choice. She even had her farewell f*ck. And this was during her false R. I don't think she is clear about her reasons to reconcile.


Her reasons are clear. OM was gone without a car and Matt was starting to move on too. She found some women flirting with him on fb (i think).

She lost control do decided I want to R now. She thought Matt would be so excited to have her back. It did not happen that way. 

I wonder if there is a chance that she does not come back from her trip. Once she is back at what she loves, it will be interesting


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> And what was your reaction when you found out about your false R? Did you reason with her about the benefits of staying married to you?


No. I kicked her out of my bed, ripped into her, didn't speak except to fight, and eventually decided to stay for the kids. It was a continual process and it was horrible beyond words.

But it was one affair. One issue that she took too long to deal with. Not serial affairs.

But really this isn't my thread. I gave a view on one way to handle things, and gave examples from my own experience. I am not DrM and my wife is not MrsM.

Forgive me BjornFree. You haven't been through this. You have read a lot of posts by others, and it is useful to summarise some of that.

But you keep calling it wrong on basic errors of fact with my story in the last few days, the post I quoted being the latest example. I'm going to ask you nicely to ease up a bit because you are in an area of many painful memories for me, and I don't see it as constructive to deal with that pain so you can continue to post things that are hurtful nonsense.

You are showing the value of judgements by strangers on the Internet who don't know the facts. FWIW.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> No. I kicked her out of my bed, ripped into her, didn't speak except to fight, and eventually decided to stay for the kids. It was a continual process and it was horrible beyond words.
> 
> But it was one affair. One issue that she took too long to deal with. Not serial affairs.
> 
> But really this isn't my thread. I gave a view on one way to handle things, and gave examples from my own experience. I am not DrM and my wife is not MrsM.
> 
> Forgive me BjornFree. You haven't been through this. You have read a lot of posts by others, and it is useful to summarise some of that.
> 
> But you keep calling it wrong on basic errors of fact with my story in the last few days, the post I quoted being the latest example. I'm going to ask you nicely to ease up a bit because you are in an area of many painful memories for me, and I don't see it as constructive to deal with that pain so you can continue to post things that are hurtful nonsense.
> 
> You are showing the value of judgements by strangers on the Internet who don't know the facts. FWIW.


I apologize if my questions seem to come across like that, certainly not my intention but those are genuine questions to understand what exactly inspires a person to R, apart from the kids of course. FWIW, someone mentioned here that the only things that keep changing from the pattern is the names and the circumstances, so far I haven't seen anything here to tell me otherwise. Since, you're years away from the affair I thought that you would have a more objective view on it. Forgive me, I was wrong. I can think of one other person here who did nothing else but fought with his wife and decided to stay, false R and now he's divorcing her. I just wanted to find out exactly what your wife did to regain your trust after the false R.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> I apologize if my questions seem to come across like that, certainly not my intention but those are genuine questions to understand what exactly inspires a person to R, apart from the kids of course. *FWIW, someone mentioned here that the only things that keep changing from the pattern is the names and the circumstances, so far I haven't seen anything here to tell me otherwise. *Since, you're years away from the affair I thought that you would have a more objective view on it. Forgive me, I was wrong. I can think of one other person here who did nothing else but fought with his wife and decided to stay, false R and now he's divorcing her. I just wanted to find out exactly what your wife did to regain your trust after the false R.



So by your boded hypothesis, EI, AnnieAsh, Tears, BFF's wife, Allybabe, Rookie4's wife and CSS are the same apart from names and circumstances. I don't see how anyone could conclude that but rather than thread jack I will agree to disagree.

Trust is directly relevant to the Mathiases. i will comment on that. 

Unconditional trust is gone forever. I can live alone or I can form relationships and take the risk of being hurt. I chose not to live alone, and I judge my wife, despite the affair, to be a better than average risk, and worth it.

As part of this I have to get over the thought of another man who, for a time, had her heart, her body, her secrets. I could, some guys couldn't. I can't tell you why.

Please BjornFree, I am accepting that you are genuine and answering the question. But it stops here. That last paragraph is not something to focus my energy on. I am willing to clarify for the Mathiases if it helps them, or others in that boat. But I'm not willing to dissect this further for your idle curiosity. And I have no interet in defending my judgement of her. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am.

My wife demonstrated years of consistency, constancy and honour and as a result my trust has increased greatly, but I had no way to know it would go this way. None of us can know until we try.


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> But it is a setup to fail.
> 
> She cries, she is manipulating.
> 
> She chooses between the down side of a trip away vs staying home land both have a down side, she is setting up a love lose, therefore manipulating.
> 
> Whatever she does she is manipulating.
> 
> It's real easy to write a book which lists every common behaviour, explains how it can manipulate, then gives it a name, so when she does it..."Look, manipulation! It is in the book!"
> 
> Maybe she is a manipulator. She has certainly done a bit of that.
> 
> Doesn't make what Wise says right.
> 
> She had a protracted and dishonest affair That is all.


This. 

If someone wants to spin someone's actions negatively, they can. It's as simple as that. But it doesn't make the actions themselves or the motives questonable, it is simple the _interpretation._

There is being overly cynical. Dr. M described her crying jag when he got the finalized paperwork for the divorce together with 'snot bubbles from her nose' she was crying so hard. If her acting talents are so great that she can control her nasal secretions, her talents are WASTED in Kansas...and he doesn't have a prayer anyway.

Her 'crying' is manipulative any way you look at it. Is it a good or a bad manipulation? She is signaling 'I want to appear remorseful to you in a significant way so I am doing this.' That is true no matter if her motives are 'I love you deeply and this is the worst thing I've ever done and I'll do ANYTHING to make it up' or 'Well, I'm down to THIS, sad to say, so if I don't want to lose a babysitter who works for the occasional bout of pity sex, I better work fast.'

In all respect, wiseforit doesn't know her motivations...and neither do I. But I'm being a bit more...humble in my assertions. I _think_ she is being as honest and self reflective as she can be this quickly after an affair (it takes months). I could be wrong.

Not arguing this any more.


----------



## snap

My wife was crying like that on D-Day 1. Tears, snot you name it.

Still continued to see the OM.

Count me unimpressed.


----------



## BjornFree

JCD said:


> This.
> 
> If someone wants to spin someone's actions negatively, they can. It's as simple as that. But it doesn't make the actions themselves or the motives questonable, it is simple the _interpretation._
> 
> There is being overly cynical. Dr. M described her crying jag when he got the finalized paperwork for the divorce together with 'snot bubbles from her nose' she was crying so hard. If her acting talents are so great that she can control her nasal secretions, her talents are WASTED in Kansas...and he doesn't have a prayer anyway.
> 
> Her 'crying' is manipulative any way you look at it. Is it a good or a bad manipulation? She is signaling 'I want to appear remorseful to you in a significant way so I am doing this.' That is true no matter if her motives are 'I love you deeply and this is the worst thing I've ever done and I'll do ANYTHING to make it up' or 'Well, I'm down to THIS, sad to say, so if I don't want to lose a babysitter who works for the occasional bout of pity sex, I better work fast.'
> 
> In all respect, wiseforit doesn't know her motivations...and neither do I. But I'm being a bit more...humble in my assertions. I _think_ she is being as honest and self reflective as she can be this quickly after an affair (it takes months). I could be wrong.
> 
> Not arguing this any more.


A crying jag is a natural reaction. Its the same thing kids do when they don't get something. If you've read Athol Kay's book( I recently did, insightful) he's described it in some detail. Remorse doesn't equate to crying like a little baby. And DrM's judgement is still clouded because he believes that the OM played her. What he doesn't realize is that his wife knew exactly what she was getting into but played the naive card quite well.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> So by your boded hypothesis, EI, AnnieAsh, Tears, BFF's wife, Allybabe, Rookie4's wife and CSS are the same apart from names and circumstances. I don't see how anyone could conclude that but rather than thread jack I will agree to disagree.


Don't mean to push this topic any further but yes. All of these women are one and the same just different names, different circumstances, playing out the same script. Some played it for longer, some were caught and ended it, some confessed, others were caught and chose to take it underground. Just variations of the same play. Of course it all depends on where a man draws the line. DrM seems to want to give it another chance, he calls the shots of course but personally I don't think it is a wise move.


----------



## JCD

BjornFree said:


> Don't mean to push this topic any further but yes. All of these women are one and the same just different names, different circumstances, playing out the same script. Some played it for longer, some were caught and ended it, some confessed, others were caught and chose to take it underground. Just variations of the same play. Of course it all depends on where a man draws the line. DrM seems to want to give it another chance, he calls the shots of course but personally I don't think it is a wise move.


Well, at least that is honest. 

Is there a single person you can mention on the threads who was a 'sincere' remorseful person BEFORE the divorce?

If you can't mention one, do you think that actually qualifies you to determine if someone is remorseful?

Cause the way you are sounding, you don't believe ANY of these women.


----------



## BjornFree

JCD said:


> Well, at least that is honest.
> 
> Is there a single person you can mention on the threads who was a 'sincere' remorseful person BEFORE the divorce?
> 
> If you can't mention one, do you think that actually qualifies you to determine if someone is remorseful?
> 
> Cause the way you are sounding, you don't believe ANY of these women.


Which is exactly my point. How do you determine a person to be genuine if they never face up to their actions and bad decisions? What reason does Matt or any other betrayed spouse have to believe, that their spouse is remorseful and trustworthy when its already been broken one or more times?

You're right about one thing though, if any of these women were my wife. How would I believe things that they are feeling internally when on the surface I had proof indicating otherwise. Do some men and women blindly go back to trusting based only on a physical show of emotion or as Wazza rightly pointed out, wait to see if there is consistency in their actions. Wouldn't a remorseful person realize that a divorce is but a natural consequence of their action and accept it and work on improving themselves rather than going on about how he or she was played like a harp? Because to me that sounds like manipulation.

I don't want to segregate any of the wayward wives or husbands on this forum and say that I feel they're remorseful or not but what I personally feel is that most of them, barring the ones who were really made to face the consequences of their bad decisions never really appreciate the sacrifice that a BS has to make to reconcile. Because if I read through the threads detailing this subject, the only things that keep popping up are 
1.) Men downplay their infidelity
2.) Women rationalize theirs.

And I see that in the threads by remorseful WS too. So how does anyone truly ever know unless they adopt a hard stance and see if the person who is truly sorry is going to match up to the raised standards. I just want to point out here that DrM is being too nice and too understanding despite what he's been through, whether that is due to his nature or because he fears the loss of the marriage, I do not know. But what I do know is that sometimes love needs to be tough.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> Which is exactly my point. How do you determine a person to be genuine if they never face up to their actions and bad decisions? What reason does Matt or any other betrayed spouse have to believe, that their spouse is remorseful and trustworthy when its already been broken one or more times?
> 
> You're right about one thing though, if any of these women were my wife. How would I believe things that they are feeling internally when on the surface I had proof indicating otherwise. Do some men and women blindly go back to trusting based only on a physical show of emotion or as Wazza rightly pointed out, wait to see if there is consistency in their actions. Wouldn't a remorseful person realize that a divorce is but a natural consequence of their action and accept it and work on improving themselves rather than going on about how he or she was played like a harp? Because to me that sounds like manipulation.
> 
> I don't want to segregate any of the wayward wives or husbands on this forum and say that I feel they're remorseful or not but what I personally feel is that most of them, barring the ones who were really made to face the consequences of their bad decisions never really appreciate the sacrifice that a BS has to make to reconcile. Because if I read through the threads detailing this subject, the only things that keep popping up are
> 1.) Men downplay their infidelity
> 2.) Women rationalize theirs.
> 
> And I see that in the threads by remorseful WS too. So how does anyone truly ever know unless they adopt a hard stance and see if the person who is truly sorry is going to match up to the raised standards. I just want to point out here that DrM is being too nice and too understanding despite what he's been through, whether that is due to his nature or because he fears the loss of the marriage, I do not know. But what I do know is that sometimes love needs to be tough.


Have you read AnnieAsh's thread?


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> *Have you read AnnieAsh's thread?*





BjornFree said:


> *2.) Women rationalize theirs.
> 
> And I see that in the threads by remorseful WS too.*





AnnieAsh said:


> Affaircare, your post gives me a lot to think about. No I don't want to destroy my family but how long can I go with being treated like a mildly annoying roommate? And to be honest, it would be painful to withdraw from the om.
> 
> *I don't want to bash my husband. He is the steady kind of guy most women would kill for. I feel like the love has kind of downgraded to like a friendship. My response to that is to beg him to make love to me so we can connect but...if it isn't on his terms...he doesn't want it. So now I don't even want to ask! It is embarrassing to be told you're acting like a trampy teenager! This has been going on for the last few years. The other guy has NOTHING to do with it. *
> 
> *If I stop texting and going out on coffee dates with the om, maybe our feelings will subside enough to just be friends.*


To answer your question, yes I have. Just another name and another context, same problem. Luckily she recognized what she was doing was wrong and ended it.

But how does her husband know or trust her in that regard? My guess is that it was because she confessed. A slight deviation from the usual script but one that occurs after a bit of awakening. Not saying that she's remorseful, just that she's a lot more controlled and honest. 

Recent post from her indicated that she still misses the OM. Natural, I think. But what would have happened if she were in a position where she ditched the OM and still lost her husband because he drew the line at EA? Would she still miss the OM or would she miss the stable life she had with the H? My money would be on the latter. She would also realize that she had been taking her H for granted too. Something that only happens if you are about to lose something.

PS: That was not the only post where she rationalized her EA. And there's also another fWW who's practically hailed as the model fWW here. Don't want to mention names but she went from hating her H and loving the OM who she had been having an affair with for a considerable amount of time to completely ditching the OM and wanting to work on the marriage and loving her H merely days later. Don't mean to say that she isn't remorseful but how does a BS really know? Especially when the transition is like lightning, at a time when the only believable thing coming out of their mouths are the lies they sell to you.

Besides she(Mrs M) is not the only one rationalizing the A. The good doctor is doing it too, downplaying her role in it. At all points in our life, we are in complete control of our actions, our thoughts and emotions may not always be under our command but our actions are. It takes a woman to be open to being seduced for a man to move in. The Other Boy saw this and threw out feelers which MrsM acknowledged and reciprocated them knowing full well that what she was doing was wrong. That she was older and had a responsibility to her son and husband only exacerbates this situation and makes it even more inexcusable.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> To answer your question, yes I have. Just another name and another context, same problem. Luckily she recognized what she was doing was wrong and ended it.
> 
> But how does her husband know or trust her in that regard? My guess is that it was because she confessed. A slight deviation from the usual script but one that occurs after a bit of awakening. Not saying that she's remorseful, just that she's a lot more controlled and honest.
> 
> Recent post from her indicated that she still misses the OM. Natural, I think. But what would have happened if she were in a position where she ditched the OM and still lost her husband because he drew the line at EA? Would she still miss the OM or would she miss the stable life she had with the H? My money would be on the latter. She would also realize that she had been taking her H for granted too. Something that only happens if you are about to lose something.
> 
> PS: That was not the only post where she rationalized her EA. And there's also another fWW who's practically hailed as the model fWW here. Don't want to mention names but she went from hating her H and loving the OM who she had been having an affair with for a considerable amount of time to completely ditching the OM and wanting to work on the marriage and loving her H merely days later. Don't mean to say that she isn't remorseful but how does a BS really know? Especially when the transition is like lightning, at a time when the only believable thing coming out of their mouths are the lies they sell to you.


I suspect that if MrsM had behaved like AnnieAsh a lot would be different for the Mathiases, and there would be no discussion of trust issues.

If you have read the thread and don't see that, then we just see it all differently.

Had my wife not had an affair, and had I not developed feelings for someone else in my loneliness afterwards, I might focus on the horror that Annie developed feelings rather than respecting how she handled them.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> I suspect that if MrsM had behaved like AnnieAsh a lot would be different for the Mathiases, and there would be no discussion of trust issues.
> 
> If you have read the thread and don't see that, then we just see it all differently.
> 
> Had my wife not had an affair, and had I not developed feelings for someone else in my loneliness afterwards, I might focus on the horror that Annie developed feelings rather than respecting how she handled them.


If you read my post again you'll see that I acknowledged that Annie exhibited a lot more self control and a lot more honesty. That was my way of saying that I respected how she handled it. We just see things differently, no harm done.

But consider answering this. Did you develop feelings for this other woman while you were reconciling with your wife? If so, what drove you there, when you were committed to reconnecting with her?


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> If you read my post again you'll see that I acknowledged that Annie exhibited a lot more self control and a lot more honesty. That was my way of saying that I respected how she handled it. We just see things differently, no harm done.
> 
> But consider answering this. Did you develop feelings for this other woman while you were reconciling with your wife? If so, what drove you there, when you were committed to reconnecting with her?


In the aftermath of wife's affair I initially stayed for the children. Things not good with wife, I was lonely. Other woman was a coworker with whom I connected while working closely together.

Learning from my wife's mistakes, I told my wife. Otherwise I may have made the same mistake he did, struggling with a secret I could not control.

Coworker is a lovely person and still a friend, with my wife's knowledge and blessing.

You can't help your desires. What matters is what you do about them.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> You can't help your desires. What matters is what you do about them.


Quoted for truth!


----------



## Chaparral

The Middleman said:


> I'll tell you why I will never recommend "R" here or in a few of the other "high profile" "Rs" here. I put myself in the shoes of the BS and say what can I live with and still maintain my self respect. If my wife had an emotional/texting affair (DDay 1), and I caught her, and I eventually found out that not only did she continue the affair but also took it physical (DDay 2), there is a level of deceit and defiance that I could not live with coming from the person I should trust the most. Reason 1 why I couldn't reconcile.
> 
> Reason 2, the physical affair. I'm old school. When my wife married me, her "lady parts" stopped being her own; she shares them with me and they are part mine. The fact that she allowed another man to "soil her" (protected or unprotected sex) ... by allowing him inside her ... is a hump I just couldn't get over. If the sex was unprotected and she brought the OM's filth home into my bed, she would have to leave the house before I found out about it because there is no telling what I would do. To take her back after this would mean that I would have no remaining self respect. I get nothing back for the pain I went through, NOTHING! I might as well give her my balls to wear around her neck in triumph.
> 
> Reason 3, continued lying, DDay 3 in this case. At this point you don't know what's true and what isn't. How can I live with my wife if I can't trust what comes out of her mouth. My biggest concern here is how can I be sure she won't do it again? I can't live in that fear.
> 
> I know I'm projecting my values and emotions on Dr. Matt (or any other BS here) when I give advice, but in the end, that's all I can do. It's up to them to take the advice or leave it. All I know is I would rather be alone or without sex (which I won't be) than to live without my self respect or have to take any of the other extraordinary measures some BS's take just so I can stand looking at my wife again. That's not me. As I've said here before, somethings can't be fixed and somethings should not be forgiven. Just my opinion.


I think you have missed the reason for this forum. It is plainly stated at the top of every page. 

*Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.*


----------



## The Middleman

chapparal said:


> I think you have missed the reason for this forum. It is plainly stated at the top of every page.
> 
> *Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.*


Chapparal, I'm an admirer of your postings because you're a no nonsense guy. As I sit and read through this thread and many others like it, I'm not going to sit here and promote reconciliations and "relationship recovery" when I think it's the absolute wrong thing for the BS. And being silent on it is not going to do either the BS or the WS any favors. Let's just say I'm giving a different point of view (and judging by the other posting, I'm not alone). I'm not interested in giving MrsMatt advice on how to get back together with DrMatt because I don't think it's in his best interest. So let's just agree to disagree. I'm sure that the MODS would have gotten on my case if I was doing something wrong.


----------



## Chaparral

Kasler said:


> Consider it made
> 
> - Not shutting down EA before it happened.
> 
> -Made a pass at OM by informing her 'husband's worries' of an affair. She might as well have said 'There is definitely an attraction between us and I want to explore it."
> 
> -Every single act of sex counts as a betrayal and individual bad decision, period.
> 
> -Initial false R. Led The Doc on false pretenses, and only after OM left
> 
> -I'll count the constant lying as one although I shouldn't, but then there'd be too many to list
> 
> -Smoking pot with OM and then immediately working while under some residual effects, effectively risking her job,* AND THE WELFARE OF YOUNG CHILD* dependent upon her and Matt's joined income.
> 
> - Continued sex with Dr Matt risking his health to an STD.
> 
> -Continued Skyping OM, Breaking NC
> 
> - More Sex meet ups.
> 
> -Taking Dr matt to this forum and lying even here as a way to manipulate him.(would be different if she told full truth the first time, but I think even you'd agree that the main purpose of lies to to hide the truth from someone and keep them in the dark I.E manipulate their actions/reactions)
> 
> Need I go on?


All you are doing, and I do not mean to make light of this or any ones problems, is describing what we see here every day. My original question is what makes this different. Yes there were two Ddays. We see that all the time. DD3 was not a true DD. Where DD4 came from IDK. Yes there was trickle truth, there ALWAYS is. So the difference is that she came to this site, screwed that up and came back. Thats still better than 90% of the other waywards here. And look what a bashing she has taken and still has the grit to stick with it.

I am not giving any cheater a pass and never will. To suggest she has done nothing is simply rewriting the thread. 

Three major things: If he wants a divorce she will not fight it, if he moves she will quit her job and move to where ever he moves to. In other words ,give up her current career and life as she knows it and move where she can at least be a part of her sons life.


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> Chapparal, I'm an admirer of your postings because you're a no nonsense guy. As I sit and read through this thread and many others like it, I'm not going to sit here and promote reconciliations and "relationship recovery" when I think it's the absolute wrong thing for the BS. And being silent on it is not going to do either the BS or the WS any favors. Let's just say I'm giving a different point of view (and judging by the other posting, I'm not alone). I'm not interested in giving MrsMatt advice on how to get back together with DrMatt because I don't think it's in his best interest. So let's just agree to disagree. I'm sure that the MODS would have gotten on my case if I was doing something wrong.


MM, you may have worked out I don't agree with you  . But you views are well expressed.

Matt does have to get over the issues you list to reconcile. It can be done, sometimes, but not always. No harm in him considering these things IMO.

For some guys, they can never get over what was done emotionally. And for such guys there is logic to moving on.


----------



## jim123

At least be a part of her sons life, think about that line.

Let say someone hit bottom and went to rehab for an addiction. As they are getting professional help they start doing drugs again. This person continues to go to rehab and lies and starts doing even more drugs. This person also is 
getting other help but is lying in that too. The person is also lying to the ones she loves who are trying to help her.

Would you not say that that person is a long shot a true rehab. Is it possible but unlikely. The person will need a lot of work over a very long period of time.

I think the Mrs does want the R at the present time however, I am not as sure about the long term.


----------



## Kasler

chapparal said:


> All you are doing, and I do not mean to make light of this or any ones problems, is describing what we see here every day. My original question is what makes this different. Yes there were two Ddays. We see that all the time. DD3 was not a true DD. Where DD4 came from IDK. Yes there was trickle truth, there ALWAYS is. So the difference is that she came to this site, screwed that up and came back. Thats still better than 90% of the other waywards here. And look what a bashing she has taken and still has the grit to stick with it.
> 
> I am not giving any cheater a pass and never will. To suggest she has done nothing is simply rewriting the thread.
> 
> *Three major things: If he wants a divorce she will not fight it, if he moves she will quit her job and move to where ever he moves to. In other words ,give up her current career and life as she knows it and move where she can at least be a part of her sons life.*


And how many have been followed through? NONE. Does matt want them currently? NO. 

Nonetheless just saying she 'would' do that is meaningless. 

How many BSs were told by their WSs that they 'would never' cheat on them as well?

Actions frequently betray words, and so far all she has supplied is words, fact.

They may be pretty words, but they are most definitely not actions. 

If it comes to worse, and she makes due on them even that is barely deserving of anything after the carnage caused because of this situation.

Until then though, unlike you and wazza I'm not gonna put a mantle over her shoulders, and start crafting a podium for just a little bit of talk.

You guys must have forgotten Allybabe's thread. Go back and read her thread, and then go read dinger's, and you'll see why I put no credence in talk.


----------



## Wazza

Kasler said:


> And how many have been followed through? NONE. Does matt want them currently? NO.
> 
> Nonetheless just saying she 'would' do that is meaningless.
> 
> How many BSs were told by their WSs that they 'would never' cheat on them as well?
> 
> Actions frequently betray words, and so far all she has supplied is words, fact.
> 
> They may be pretty words, but they are most definitely not actions.
> 
> If it comes to worse, and she makes due on them even that is barely deserving of anything after the carnage caused because of this situation.
> 
> Until then though, unlike you and wazza I'm not gonna put a mantle over her shoulders, and start crafting a podium for just a little bit of talk.
> 
> You guys must have forgotten Allybabe's thread. Go back and read her thread, and then go read dinger's, and you'll see why I put no credence in talk.


Interesting that you think I put a mantle over her and created a podium.

I agree she hasn't proven anything yet. I just think she hasn't disproven either.

I don't know if they will reconcile, but if they both want to try I will do what I can to support them. Perfectly understandable if they don't though.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> At least be a part of her sons life, think about that line.
> 
> Let say someone hit bottom and went to rehab for an addiction. As they are getting professional help they start doing drugs again. This person continues to go to rehab and lies and starts doing even more drugs. This person also is
> getting other help but is lying in that too. The person is also lying to the ones she loves who are trying to help her.
> 
> Would you not say that that person is a long shot a true rehab. Is it possible but unlikely. The person will need a lot of work over a very long period of time.
> 
> I think the Mrs does want the R at the present time however, I am not as sure about the long term.


Rehab is a good analogy. Having had one person close to me deal with heroin addiction, and another currently battling serious alcoholism.

The person who beat heroin says that he had to reach the point of wanting to. Until that time, nothing worked. Once he seriously committed, it worked.

The alcoholic is still at the "this isn't a problem" stage. The help we have given has been wasted. His symptoms suggest he may not survive long enough to recover.

MrsM is the only one who really has any idea whether she is ready for "rehab" at this point. Has she sufficiently hit rock bottom that she realises how badly she has f*cked up?


----------



## jim123

We are not sure what the f*cked up is. Did she f up when she cheated or did she f up when she got married and had a child.

You mentioned some posters on here but I can not remember any of them saying having to become better mothers.

Mrs M has done everything just like she did last time. The Dr. had full access, she went to MC, went to IC, even did the NC. She just found other ways to contact and turned up the A.

She did not hide the affair and somewhat appeared that she wanted her other "family" see it.

Her best friend became CJ. Does anyone think they were talking about her son and husband? When a mother is confused between a stable environment versus a non stable, always take notice.

She did not return to R until after CJ was gone a few days and she thought Matt was moving on. There is nothing in this about this that says I love my husband more than anything. Is see this more as the I have no other options at the present time rather than deep love for her husband or her child.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> We are not sure what the f*cked up is. Did she f up when she cheated or did she f up when she got married and had a child.
> 
> You mentioned some posters on here but I can not remember any of them saying having to become better mothers.
> 
> Mrs M has done everything just like she did last time. The Dr. had full access, she went to MC, went to IC, even did the NC. She just found other ways to contact and turned up the A.
> 
> She did not hide the affair and somewhat appeared that she wanted her other "family" see it.
> 
> Her best friend became CJ. Does anyone think they were talking about her son and husband? When a mother is confused between a stable environment versus a non stable, always take notice.
> 
> She did not return to R until after CJ was gone a few days and she thought Matt was moving on. There is nothing in this about this that says I love my husband more than anything. Is see this more as the I have no other options at the present time rather than deep love for her husband or her child.


Th difference MAY be that this time she has fully disclosed.

As for whether it was a mistake to marry and have a child....moot..the child exists, Matt's feelings exist. Sometimes an adult has to do the right thing and make it work, not follow their heart.

As for other mothers and their children...well by definition I think any person who has an affair and destroys their family is neglecting their children as well as ther spouse.

I don't think the case has yet been made that MrsMat is anything more than a woman who lost her youth and had a stupid midlife crisis. Several of Matt's comments point that way.

Possibility one. MrsM will be a serial cheater. Matt is well rid of her. She hasn't got what it takes to be marriage material.

Possibility two. MrsM is the an amazingly good match for Matt. She has learned her lesson and, given a chance, will be the most amazing wife possible. If Matt ends it over this he misses out on the most amazing marriage possible.

No one knows which of those is true.


----------



## jim123

Not moot at all. Farther custody is now at 10% as announced last month. This is up from about 1% as little as five years ago. 50-50 custody is also becoming the norm.

The only way a father gets custody is if the mother walks away (happens more and more each year), lives a bad lifestyle or hooks up with a CJ type. 

She is willing to give Matt residential custody. Most men fight to get proper visitation.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> Not moot at all. Farther custody is now at 10% as announced last month. This is up from about 1% as little as five years ago. 50-50 custody is also becoming the norm.
> 
> The only way a father gets custody is if the mother walks away (happens more and more each year), lives a bad lifestyle or hooks up with a CJ type.
> 
> She is willing to give Matt residential custody. Most men fight to get proper visitation.


Moot as in, if marrying was a mistake, it is made. If the son was a mistake, he still exists. You can only more forward.


----------



## jim123

10 % of women now move forward without either. Is this a true R or just another false R due to lack of options at this time.

She did not confess, she was found out. She did not intend to give up communication with OM. She did not hide the affair from the theatre family. The thearte became more important than her family. 

The only way R can happen is if she and Matt are on board. Is she truely on board or does not happen to have choices at this time. We have no idea what would have happened if OM had not moved. Is she picking Matt because she love him more or just because CJ is gone.


----------



## Wazza

jim123 said:


> 10 % of women now move forward without either. Is this a true R or just another false R due to lack of options at this time.
> 
> She did not confess, she was found out. She did not intend to give up communication with OM. She did not hide the affair from the theatre family. The thearte became more important than her family.
> 
> The only way R can happen is if she and Matt are on board. Is she truely on board or does not happen to have choices at this time. We have no idea what would have happened if OM had not moved. Is she picking Matt because she love him more or just because CJ is gone.


Fair question.

A related question is whether she had any idea how to handle affairs.

Really, my wife's affair ended more or less as Mrs M was intending to. IE, while what she did was not clean at all, it is not fair to conclude that the affair was still going. Matt will eventually have to decid to take a leap of faith, or not.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Fair question.
> 
> A related question is whether she had any idea how to handle affairs.
> 
> Really, my wife's affair ended more or less as Mrs M was intending to. IE, while what she did was not clean at all, it is not fair to conclude that the affair was still going. Matt will eventually have to decid to take a leap of faith, or not.


Why should he take that leap?

I follow several other threads on TAM. For instance, I think CM has done a lot to demonstrate she deserves another chance. I think EI has done a lot to demonstrate that she deserves another chance. I think CSS has done a lot to demonstrate she deserves another chance. There are others as well that I have not mentioned. And I support all these fWW in their effort to repair the damage they caused. And I have stated in their threads that I believe R is these cases should be pursued. Why have I not recommended R in this case? Its the same reason Doc is still proceeding with divorce. Because he has not been given a good reason not to.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I have a day off today so I thought I'd check in and update my thread. 

Number one - my son is NOT a mistake and that line of discussion is absolutely ENDED. He is wonderful, adorable, and brilliant, and I have loved every minute with him since he has been born. You can say what you want about me being a sh1tty mother because of my affair - but the fact is, I breastfed him for 2 years, babywore instead of using a stroller, made all his baby food from scratch, cloth diapered, and help bathe him, read to him, and put him to bed every single night that I am home. The world is full of crappy, neglectful parents, and as much as i HATE myself for the mess I have made of my life over the last year - I KNOW I am a caring, good mother.

Second... actions. I drove 3.5 hours last night to come home on my one day off to spend with Matt and our son. I will drive back for rehearsal tomorrow morning. I am carrying the voice activated recorder every minute of every day. I have my chaperone with me. I call/text Matt and our son several times each day to let them know I am thinking of them, and try to speak with them each night before bedtime. I even mailed a card to Matt so he would get a different form of communication from me than is typical while I am away. It is still sitting unopened on the table.

Matt's and my phone conversations have been going well - we've only had one night where things turned angry/upset. I've enjoyed hearing from him about his adventures discovering Minecraft and finishing his zombies, and it seems he has been interested in my rehearsals and the process so far. The show is going relatively well, and I have only needed to use my Xanax prescription to get through one day so far.

I have been telling Matt EVERYTHING that I feel and sharing even the bad stuff I sometimes go through, instead of trying to save that from him. I still feel incredibly awkward about it, because I am sure it pales compared to his pain and struggles, but I want to be completely open to him. When I got back last night, we spent an hour or so having casual conversation and then the topic turned to our relationship and the affair. It didn't end positively, I slept in the guest room (my new room) which I hadn't done since before Christmas. 

It was wonderful to wake up to my son this morning though, and Matt let me pour his coffee and run an errand that he needed done today, so I was glad to have that opportunity to do a little something for him while I am home. I spent the afternoon making homemade soup while our son napped, and I am hopeful we have a nice evening together as a family. As much as possible anyway, given the terrible mess that I have put us through.

I scheduled a counseling session today while I was home and it was good to check in with her. We talked about the past week, and what it's been like to be out of town, how helpless i feel with the struggles that Matt has has (sick, daycare closed, son sick) and how I feel like it's hard for me to know what to do. When I arranged a friend to watch our son while Matt was sick so he could rest, Matt seemed angry about that. So then when the daycare was closed, I didn't do anything but offer him information. He decided not to pursue it, and ended up missing the first two days of the semester which makes me feel even more awful. It's so difficult to walk the line of taking actions to show him I care and I am working (even if he says not to because I've been told he doesn't know what he wants by the vets here), and showing him respect by allowing him to handle these situations himself.

In addition we talked about how my job is going, and my overwhelming negativity towards myself in all aspects of life. She says every time I think something negative about myself I have to list 5 positive things immediately after. That's impossible right now... I don't think there are five things on that list. But I'll start small...

1. My son always seems happy to see me.

2. I make really good scrambled eggs, and I think good chicken and rice soup. Especially considering I am not terribly domestically inclined.

3. My colleagues always seem to be pleased with my work.

Hopefully I can add to that list one day at a time. I love my family more than anything, and I am trying every day to show them that, from both near and far.


----------



## sandc

Just me but if I were you I'd drop #3 and add in something like, I'm learning more about myself and trying to become a better wife.

Try to look for affirmation somewhere other than work. For now.

Again. Just me.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

sandc said:


> Just me but if I were you I'd drop #3 and add in something like, I'm learning more about myself and trying to become a better wife.
> 
> Try to look for affirmation somewhere other than work. For now.
> 
> Again. Just me.


3 is a suggestion from my therapist. Taking a step back to recognize that I have more in my life than the huge mess I made in my home life. I CAN say that I am learning more about myself and working to be a better wife, but I'm not there enough for me to consider that an accomplished positive trait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Pulling and praying for your family. You could also pray, it won't hurt and it surprises a lot of people.


----------



## Chaparral

Mrs_Mathias said:


> 3 is a suggestion from my therapist. Taking a step back to recognize that I have more in my life than the huge mess I made in my home life. I CAN say that I am learning more about myself and working to be a better wife, but I'm not there enough for me to consider that an accomplished positive trait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Working hard to do something is a psoitive thing. Though not the goal, it is an accomplishment. As in sports, winning isn't the only goal.


----------



## sandc

Mrs_Mathias said:


> 3 is a suggestion from my therapist. Taking a step back to recognize that I have more in my life than the huge mess I made in my home life. I CAN say that I am learning more about myself and working to be a better wife, but I'm not there enough for me to consider that an accomplished positive trait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Understood. But wasn't it through your job that the huge mess was made? It's a long tangled thread though, I might be confusing things in my head. That's the only reason I was suggesting a steer away from the job.

I am hoping for healing for you both as well.


----------



## Wazza

MrsM, glad you are holding up ok.

On the childminding issues....well every parent has to make these decisions? Does one partner put their career on hold. How do you balance career, family and parenthood?

There are going to be days when you both have work commitments, and your child gets sick. That is life. I wouldn't beat yourself up over that. I would just be talking to Matt about what you can do better, how you can share the load - as a couple. As a couple. Not you alone.

You said you helped put your son to bed every night you were home. I am going to suggest you try and go through your diary and work out how many nights you were home in the average year. This might give you a concrete insight into changes you need to make in your balance of work and life, if it turns out that "when you were home" is two nights a week or something. (And I picked that number because that was how often I was home at one point in our marriage. I only realised years later how hard that made things for my wife).

You are obviously a fairly driven person, and therefore you may find setting numerical targets for time with your son, etc, helps you not neglect him when life gets too demanding.

Hang in there. You cannot control Matt, you can only control you. Be strong.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> MrsM, glad you are holding up ok.
> 
> On the childminding issues....well every parent has to make these decisions? Does one partner put their career on hold. How do you balance career, family and parenthood?
> 
> There are going to be days when you both have work commitments, and your child gets sick. That is life. I wouldn't beat yourself up over that. I would just be talking to Matt about what you can do better, how you can share the load - as a couple. As a couple. Not you alone.
> 
> You said you helped put your son to bed every night you were home. I am going to suggest you try and go through your diary and work out how many nights you were home in the average year. This might give you a concrete insight into changes you need to make in your balance of work and life, if it turns out that "when you were home" is two nights a week or something. (And I picked that number because that was how often I was home at one point in our marriage. I only realised years later how hard that made things for my wife).
> 
> You are obviously a fairly driven person, and therefore you may find setting numerical targets for time with your son, etc, helps you not neglect him when life gets too demanding.
> 
> Hang in there. You cannot control Matt, you can only control you. Be strong.



Thanks for the thoughts. I believe in the past year, I was home in the evening 220-240 days. That's my best guesstimate based on 3 concerts, a musical that was worse than ever (time wise), and two opera trips. I think the perception is that I am always gone/travelling, but that's not true. I would say I have evening commitments 14-16 weeks total. And had last year not been such a disaster musical wise, it would have probably been more like 10 weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks for the thoughts. I believe in the past year, I was home in the evening 220-240 days. That's my best guesstimate based on 3 concerts, a musical that was worse than ever (time wise), and two opera trips. I think the perception is that I am always gone/travelling, but that's not true. I would say I have evening commitments 14-16 weeks total. And had last year not been such a disaster musical wise, it would have probably been more like 10 weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So 1/3 of the time you weren't there for your husband or child? That's a lot isn't it? And you wonder why your connection with Matt eroded? Matt's right, he should have primary custody. You're never there.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks for the thoughts. I believe in the past year, I was home in the evening 220-240 days. That's my best guesstimate based on 3 concerts, a musical that was worse than ever (time wise), and two opera trips. I think the perception is that I am always gone/travelling, but that's not true. I would say I have evening commitments 14-16 weeks total. And had last year not been such a disaster musical wise, it would have probably been more like 10 weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to take a second look. 

By these numbers, you were out more than 7 nights a week the weeks you had evening commitments...somewhere between 7.8 and 10.3 nights a week.

Not having a go at you, but making the point that you maybe haven't fully realised how much other things impinge on your home time. Hence numbers that don't add up.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> *Why should he take that leap?*
> 
> I follow several other threads on TAM. For instance, I think CM has done a lot to demonstrate she deserves another chance. I think EI has done a lot to demonstrate that she deserves another chance. I think CSS has done a lot to demonstrate she deserves another chance. There are others as well that I have not mentioned. And I support all these fWW in their effort to repair the damage they caused. And I have stated in their threads that I believe R is these cases should be pursued. Why have I not recommended R in this case? Its the same reason Doc is still proceeding with divorce. Because he has not been given a good reason not to.


Because he might want to?

I had to take a leap of sorts after my wife's affair. Sometimes you have to.


----------



## bfree

MattMatt said:


> Because he might want to?
> 
> I had to take a leap of sorts after my wife's affair. Sometimes you have to.


He has asked Mrs M "Why should I take that leap?" So far he hasn't received a satisfactory answer or seen enough actions to convince him to change course. I don't see a reason for him to change course either and generally I'm extremely pro R.

Before she went away to do this project I warned her that this extended hiatus would serve to further detach Matt from her. And what happened when she went home yesterday? He had her sleep in the guest room. Nuff said.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> He has asked Mrs M "Why should I take that leap?" So far he hasn't received a satisfactory answer or seen enough actions to convince him to change course. I don't see a reason for him to change course either and generally I'm extremely pro R.
> 
> Before she went away to do this project I warned her that this extended hiatus would serve to further detach Matt from her. And what happened when she went home yesterday? He had her sleep in the guest room. Nuff said.


I don't think Matt has a course. 

Not do I think you can draw a conclusion from one night. If Matt had, instead, dragged her to the bedroom and made passionate love all night, would you have pronounced reconcile on track?

It's a roller coaster for both of them right now.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> You need to take a second look.
> 
> By these numbers, you were out more than 7 nights a week the weeks you had evening commitments...somewhere between 7.8 and 10.3 nights a week.
> 
> Not having a go at you, but making the point that you maybe haven't fully realised how much other things impinge on your home time. Hence numbers that don't add up.



I'm not sure how your math adds up. 14 weeks is 98 days, leaving 267 days remaining in the year. I then OVER estimated to make sure I was really thinking on the high side. So the numbers are an estimate. Also, it may seem like a lot of nights away, but it's small compared to many people in my line of work. I'm sorry I'm not a 9-5 type employee, but that's the reality of the performing arts. I will not compare my job to a banker, or the like. It's the work I have ALWAYS done, and not something I changed to f*ck over my husband once I had a kid.

Also, regarding my inability to give Matt a "reason" to stay married, I am communicating my feelings and the value I place on our relationship. Matt doesn't want to hear that from me given my recent involvement in the affair. It's not that I CAN'T give him any reasons, but my previous actions are preventing him from feeling my sincerity and love now. EVERYONE who cheats and successfully reconciles needs the BS to decide they will accept that their affair made the marriage seem worthless but the WS rediscovered/remembered/renewed that value in their hearts after ending the affair. Matt is not ready to do that yet, and that is fine. I will keep telling and showing him that I value this.

Thanks for saying "I told you so" bfree. It's incredibly useful. I'm glad that Internet strangers can comfortably assess Matt's and my emotional, physical, and financial well-being and offer such sage commentary. I will tell YOU that Matt is handling this far better than you originally projected, and I am amazed and inspired by his strength every day. I am heartbroken that I did this to him, and while it is hard to be away, I still can tell that Matt sincerely cares about me AND this project,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

MattMatt said:


> Because he might want to?
> 
> I had to take a leap of sorts after my wife's affair. Sometimes you have to.


The problem I have is she jumped right back into the same environment that created this problem to begin with. When adultery happens, you must eliminate all the conditions that led to the betrayal to begin with. Not only are they not eliminated, she is actively engaging in said conditions as we speak. Okay, she has a chaperone, making calls, sending emails, snail mail, blah, blah, blah.

IMHO, that doesn't amount to jack squat. 

She has chosen to still engage in the activity that led to this train wreck. 

She has chosen to put her interests above her marriage and MM. 

She has chosen to leave her devastated husband behind to deal with this by himself, regardless of what he told her to do.

She's made terrible choices from the beginning, and continues to do so now. 

Her therapist is an idiot, btw. 

Okay, from this point forward, this is directed at you MrsM.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> 3 is a suggestion from my therapist. Taking a step back to recognize that I have more in my life than the huge mess I made in my home life. I CAN say that I am learning more about myself and working to be a better wife, but I'm not there enough for me to consider that an accomplished positive trait.


Why not take a step forward and recognize what you have in your life is the cause for the mess you have in your marriage? Ever considered that? That seems to be a bit more productive to me. What this "therapist" is suggesting is nothing more than rug sweeping and removing yourself from accountability. This is not what you need right now, yet you seem so eager to soak it all in. You are suckering yourself right into contributing to the 84% failure percent rate that counselors have. (that number's not there by accident btw, especially when it comes to infidelity. It's such an easy out.) 

It doesn't matter that "he's" not there anymore or with you now. He was there at one time and it did happen. Yet, YOU'RE still there. Trigger central. Please don't spoon feed me the garbage that Matt wanted you to go. It's not about that. It's about you eliminating the conditions that led to this, yet their you sit right smack dab in the middle of them.....for 3 weeks straight....while betrayed Matt is sitting at home thinking about it. Pretty fvcking vile and vicious if you ask me.

But you didn't ask. Just ask yourself this; what would you do with you if you were Matt?


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not sure how your math adds up. 14 weeks is 98 days, leaving 267 days remaining in the year. I then OVER estimated to make sure I was really thinking on the high side. So the numbers are an estimate. Also, it may seem like a lot of nights away, but it's small compared to many people in my line of work. I'm sorry I'm not a 9-5 type employee, but that's the reality of the performing arts. I will not compare my job to a banker, or the like. It's the work I have ALWAYS done, and not something I changed to f*ck over my husband once I had a kid.
> 
> Also, regarding my inability to give Matt a "reason" to stay married, I am communicating my feelings and the value I place on our relationship. Matt doesn't want to hear that from me given my recent involvement in the affair. It's not that I CAN'T give him any reasons, but my previous actions are preventing him from feeling my sincerity and love now. EVERYONE who cheats and successfully reconciles needs the BS to decide they will accept that their affair made the marriage seem worthless but the WS rediscovered/remembered/renewed that value in their hearts after ending the affair. Matt is not ready to do that yet, and that is fine. I will keep telling and showing him that I value this.
> 
> Thanks for saying "I told you so" bfree. It's incredibly useful. I'm glad that Internet strangers can comfortably assess Matt's and my emotional, physical, and financial well-being and offer such sage commentary. I will tell YOU that Matt is handling this far better than you originally projected, and I am amazed and inspired by his strength every day. I am heartbroken that I did this to him, and while it is hard to be away, I still can tell that Matt sincerely cares about me AND this project,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maths...you had said you were there 220 to 240. That makes you away 125 to 145. Dividing number of days by number of weeks is how I got my days per week. It may just be your overestimation that caused the glitch. 

If you were out seven nights a week for 14 to 16 weeks that would be a lot, I think. I've seen that sort of time away break more than one marriage over the years. Anyway, I'm just throwing up ideas for you to think about. I'll stop being a math geek now.

Giving Matt a reason to stay....well...can I suggest you just be you? If that's enough, he wil come round. If it's not, then I don't see how being something you are not makes anything better. Work on your faults, but be you. That is who he fell in love with. I think anyone who reads both your threads with an open mind would see you have some strengths as well as weaknesses. As do we all.

I don't think the question is whether he can love you...I am sure he does. It's whether he can trust you again, and that is a hard one. It will take years to get comfortable again, if it ever happens.

I hope the show is going well. I'll probably be pilloried again by some posters for saying something nice to you, but I can imagine how's much life sucks right now, and I hope you find some small niche of joy to help you hang on and get through.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not sure how your math adds up. 14 weeks is 98 days, leaving 267 days remaining in the year. I then OVER estimated to make sure I was really thinking on the high side. So the numbers are an estimate. Also, it may seem like a lot of nights away, but it's small compared to many people in my line of work. I'm sorry I'm not a 9-5 type employee, but that's the reality of the performing arts. I will not compare my job to a banker, or the like. It's the work I have ALWAYS done, and not something I changed to f*ck over my husband once I had a kid.
> 
> Also, regarding my inability to give Matt a "reason" to stay married, I am communicating my feelings and the value I place on our relationship. Matt doesn't want to hear that from me given my recent involvement in the affair. It's not that I CAN'T give him any reasons, but my previous actions are preventing him from feeling my sincerity and love now. EVERYONE who cheats and successfully reconciles needs the BS to decide they will accept that their affair made the marriage seem worthless but the WS rediscovered/remembered/renewed that value in their hearts after ending the affair. Matt is not ready to do that yet, and that is fine. I will keep telling and showing him that I value this.
> 
> Thanks for saying "I told you so" bfree. It's incredibly useful. I'm glad that Internet strangers can comfortably assess Matt's and my emotional, physical, and financial well-being and offer such sage commentary. I will tell YOU that Matt is handling this far better than you originally projected, and I am amazed and inspired by his strength every day. I am heartbroken that I did this to him, and while it is hard to be away, I still can tell that Matt sincerely cares about me AND this project,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, if you remember I was very supportive of your efforts until I realized that there really weren't any efforts at all. If I can empathize with Matt it is only because I was in the same position as Matt. What he is feeling I felt. You do not realize how fortunate you are that Matt is the gentleman that he is.

Let's just go over this for a bit.

You had a child and proceeded to dump said child in your husband's lap while you selfishly gave all your effort and attention to your career and job.

You robbed your son of many nights with his mother during his formative years when he should be bonding with you.

You robbed and defrauded your husband of time and love with his wife.

You were gone 1/3 of the time when you should have been home with your family. That is not succeeding at marriage or motherhood regardless of what you may try to rationalize.

And we haven't even started with what you did by having an affair, cuckolding your husband at the very place he works with a student he taught! And at his house right under his nose!

You didn't "value" your marriage until you were about to lose it and frankly haven't done much to SHOW that you "value" it even today.

You want to know why Matt was angry when you sent your "friend" to help him? Because he wanted and needed YOU to be there. Not a lackey. He is too much of a gentleman to say it. That is how much you value your marriage. Sending someone else to do YOUR most important job while you made sure to do what YOU wanted to do.

Let me ask you this. If Matt wasn't around and you were a single mother would you have stayed home to care for your sick son or would you have sent a substitute mother like you did when Matt was sick? I think you still would have chosen your "project" because that is what you really love. Everything else falls in behind that. Your damned right Matt is strong. Your son is lucky to have him as a father. I get angry because I see how you take advantage of Matt and his good nature. I get angry because sometimes I wish he would tell you what he really feels about you. I get angry because he DOESN'T DESERVE THIS! But he is too good a man to say it. So I do because you need to hear it.

You just don't get it. And I don't think you ever will.

And let me add that I don't think my wife has been away from our children for 125 days in the last TEN YEARS. And you were gone that much in ONE YEAR! You know why my wife was there so much. Because she knew she wanted to have children and she chose a career that would allow her to be a good mother. Think about that.


----------



## goodwife4

i have said to hubby if he cheats again thats it. he did it once and i could never go thru this again. i have cried more in the last 2 years since he confessed ..........
its 2 years since then and i still cry ....... we still together........

no more chances


its just too hard


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

3putt said:


> The problem I have is she jumped right back into the same environment that created this problem to begin with. When adultery happens, you must eliminate all the conditions that led to the betrayal to begin with. Not only are they not eliminated, she is actively engaging in said conditions as we speak. Okay, she has a chaperone, making calls, sending emails, snail mail, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> IMHO, that doesn't amount to jack squat.
> 
> She has chosen to still engage in the activity that led to this train wreck.
> 
> She has chosen to put her interests above her marriage and MM.
> 
> She has chosen to leave her devastated husband behind to deal with this by himself, regardless of what he told her to do.
> 
> She's made terrible choices from the beginning, and continues to do so now.
> 
> Her therapist is an idiot, btw.
> 
> Okay, from this point forward, this is directed at you MrsM.
> 
> 
> Why not take a step forward and recognize what you have in your life is the cause for the mess you have in your marriage? Ever considered that? That seems to be a bit more productive to me. What this "therapist" is suggesting is nothing more than rug sweeping and removing yourself from accountability. This is not what you need right now, yet you seem so eager to soak it all in. You are suckering yourself right into contributing to the 84% failure percent rate that counselors have. (that number's not there by accident btw, especially when it comes to infidelity. It's such an easy out.)
> 
> It doesn't matter that "he's" not there anymore or with you now. He was there at one time and it did happen. Yet, YOU'RE still there. Trigger central. Please don't spoon feed me the garbage that Matt wanted you to go. It's not about that. It's about you eliminating the conditions that led to this, yet their you sit right smack dab in the middle of them.....for 3 weeks straight....while betrayed Matt is sitting at home thinking about it. Pretty fvcking vile and vicious if you ask me.
> 
> But you didn't ask. Just ask yourself this; what would you do with you if you were Matt?


Ok. The job I am on not is NOT the environment when I met OM. It is an outside contract. Regardless, blaming this on my job feels WAY more like rug sweeping than looking for the actual source. 

Here's the fact. I could have ANY job or NO job, and had I repeated my behavior prior to the affair the SAME thing would have happened. The fault is MINE as a person. I stopped COMMUNICATING with Matt, projected my own negative opinions about myself onto him, and then drew away even further. I then found an outside individual unrelated to that inner negativity to connect with. So while me therapist may be an idiot (I don't know, having never been I therapy before and neither do you from the minuscule amount of information that has been shared regarding my sessions) I can understand the motivation for making me want to address and overcome my self-esteem issues as they relate to this issue substantially.

I am done replying here for a while. Going to try to enjoy my evening with Matt and get through the next ten days. As always, thank you for your constructive ideas and criticisms. They really do make me think about a lot of things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

bfree said:


> Mrs M, if you remember I was very supportive of your efforts until I realized that there really weren't any efforts at all. If I can empathize with Matt it is only because I was in the same position as Matt. What he is feeling I felt. You do not realize how fortunate you are that Matt is the gentleman that he is.
> 
> Let's just go over this for a bit.
> 
> You had a child and proceeded to dump said child in your husband's lap while you selfishly gave all your effort and attention to your career and job.
> 
> You robbed your son of many nights with his mother during his formative years when he should be bonding with you.
> 
> You robbed and defrauded your husband of time and love with his wife.
> 
> You were gone 1/3 of the time when you should have been home with your family. That is not succeeding at marriage or motherhood regardless of what you may try to rationalize.
> 
> And we haven't even started with what you did by having an affair, cuckolding your husband at the very place he works with a student he taught! And at his house right under his nose!
> 
> You didn't "value" your marriage until you were about to lose it and frankly haven't done much to SHOW that you "value" it even today.
> 
> You want to know why Matt was angry when you sent your "friend" to help him? Because he wanted and needed YOU to be there. Not a lackey. He is too much of a gentleman to say it. That is how much you value your marriage. Sending someone else to do YOUR most important job while you made sure to do what YOU wanted to do.
> 
> Let me ask you this. If Matt wasn't around and you were a single mother would you have stayed home to care for your sick son or would you have sent a substitute mother like you did when Matt was sick? I think you still would have chosen your "project" because that is what you really love. Everything else falls in behind that. Your damned right Matt is strong. Your son is lucky to have him as a father. I get angry because I see how you take advantage of Matt and his good nature. I get angry because sometimes I wish he would tell you what he really feels about you. I get angry because he DOESN'T DESERVE THIS! But he is too good a man to say it. So I do because you need to hear it.
> 
> You just don't get it. And I don't think you ever will.
> 
> And let me add that I don't think my wife has been away from our children for 125 days in the last TEN YEARS. And you were gone that much in ONE YEAR! You know why my wife was there so much. Because she knew she wanted to have children and she chose a career that would allow her to be a good mother. Think about that.


wow.


----------



## 3putt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok. The job I am on not is NOT the environment when I met OM. It is an outside contract. Regardless, blaming this on my job feels WAY more like rug sweeping than looking for the actual source.
> 
> Here's the fact. I could have ANY job or NO job, and had I repeated my behavior prior to the affair the SAME thing would have happened. The fault is MINE as a person. I stopped COMMUNICATING with Matt, projected my own negative opinions about myself onto him, and then drew away even further. I then found an outside individual unrelated to that inner negativity to connect with. So while me therapist may be an idiot (I don't know, having never been I therapy before and neither do you from the minuscule amount of information that has been shared regarding my sessions) I can understand the motivation for making me want to address and overcome my self-esteem issues as they relate to this issue substantially.
> 
> I am done replying here for a while. Going to try to enjoy my evening with Matt and get through the next ten days. As always, thank you for your constructive ideas and criticisms. They really do make me think about a lot of things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, whatever. Pretty sure that's the first time I have posted to you, but I'm damned sure it will be the last.

You simply don't get _it_.

Best of luck


----------



## Wazza

I think you make some great points, but I think you take them too far.



bfree said:


> You had a child and proceeded to dump said child in your husband's lap while you selfishly gave all your effort and attention to your career and job.


Don't think it is that clear cut. You may be right but I am unsure. I would love to know what Matt thinks.



bfree said:


> You robbed your son of many nights with his mother during his formative years when he should be bonding with you.
> 
> You robbed and defrauded your husband of time and love with his wife.
> 
> You were gone 1/3 of the time when you should have been home with your family. That is not succeeding at marriage or motherhood regardless of what you may try to rationalize.


Well, I've questioned this too, but a woman who goes out one night a week with her husband and one night a week for a hobby (say evening classes or something) is going to be leaving the kids with sitters close to that often. Do the maths. So not all that unusual I would think.



bfree said:


> You want to know why Matt was angry when you sent your "friend" to help him? Because he wanted and needed YOU to be there. Not a lackey. He is too much of a gentleman to say it. That is how much you value your marriage. Sending someone else to do YOUR most important job while you made sure to do what YOU wanted to do.


Both Matt and MrsM report that they discussed and agreed she should take this trip. Not being there if the son got sick was an inevitable consequence of that decision.

If Matt really doesn't want her to go and is too scared to speak up, then he needs to grow a pair and speak up. But that is not my reading of Matt. 



bfree said:


> And let me add that I don't think my wife has been away from our children for 125 days in the last TEN YEARS. And you were gone that much in ONE YEAR! You know why my wife was there so much. Because she knew she wanted to have children and she chose a career that would allow her to be a good mother. Think about that.


If you hired a sitter and took your wife out for a date once a fortnight, that would be 260 days the kids were left with a sitter. You are saying less than 125 times the kids were left with a sitter, therefore you go out less than once a month. If that is true I would counsel you to make more time for your wife. Or have I misunderstood you?

Not trying to be argumentative, or to say there are no problems. Just trying to keep perspective.


----------



## SoulStorm

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not sure how your math adds up. 14 weeks is 98 days, leaving 267 days remaining in the year. I then OVER estimated to make sure I was really thinking on the high side. So the numbers are an estimate. Also, it may seem like a lot of nights away, but it's small compared to many people in my line of work. I'm sorry I'm not a 9-5 type employee, but that's the reality of the performing arts. I will not compare my job to a banker, or the like. It's the work I have ALWAYS done, and not something I changed to f*ck over my husband once I had a kid.


Incidentally,

I asked my wife if she had a career she loved and that career kept her away 14 weeks a year, once she had a child what would she do.
She said (immediately) time to change careers, that is too many days away for a mother to be from her child.
What good is babywore, homemade baby food,bathing and reading stories if it's almost part time? Her second reply was, a person who does that doesn't really know the value of being selfless. A child is far more important than any career.
Far more important than being a part-time parent.


----------



## Wazza

SoulStorm said:


> Incidentally,
> 
> I asked my wife if she had a career she loved and that career kept her away 14 weeks a year, once she had a child what would she do.
> She said (immediately) time to change careers, that is too many days away for a mother to be from her child.
> What good is babywore, homemade baby food,bathing and reading stories if it's almost part time? Her second reply was, a person who does that doesn't really know the value of being selfless. A child is far more important than any career.
> Far more important than being a part-time parent.


Would you do the same?

What is wrong with an arrangement where the husband is the primary caregiver?

Surely the issue here is a need for more time into the marriage, rather than into motherhood.


----------



## SoulStorm

Wazza said:


> Would you do the same?
> 
> What is wrong with an arrangement where the husband is the primary caregiver?
> 
> Surely the issue here is a need for more time into the marriage, rather than into motherhood.


Ahhh yes. More time is the common denominator here. More time for being a wife and mother. The emphasis is not merely on motherhood. That was just something I asked my wife incidentally. The main focus is time.
If my job was affecting my marriage and my ability to be a father would I do the same?
I sure would. The moment the opportunity presented itself.
I have done it and would do it again.

Years ago I was an over the road truck driver..spent too much time away.

I went to school..got a degree in computers and now I'm home every night.


----------



## SkaterDad

SoulStorm said:


> Ahhh yes. More time is the common denominator here. More time for being a wife and mother. The emphasis is not merely on motherhood. That was just something I asked my wife incidentally. The main focus is time.
> If my job was affecting my marriage and my ability to be a father would I do the same?
> I sure would. The moment the opportunity presented itself.
> I have done it and would do it again.
> 
> Years ago I was an over the road truck driver..spent too much time away.
> 
> I went to school..got a degree in computers and now I'm home every night.


SS, great post. I did the same, and I'm in the creative field (along with my stbx) OUR plan was to build a business from home, she got into yoga, same plan but then lost it, similar to MRs M, but I don't have the proof. plans WE made to be selfless, work flexible, creative jobs so we could spend time as a fam. guess selfless is a couple characters off from selfish. Oh well, best laid plans... pun intended.

Mrs M, my WS still denies her A's, and blames me for them if she admits them (ironic, isn't it). I can't imagine the conflict and compartmentalization you have to do to keep a straight face and accomplish that. But I do know, once it happens, proof positive you can do it again. That's what everyone is getting at, I took her back, and now I'm in it again, this time I saw it from a mile away, but had no proof, she had learned to hide it better.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> I think you make some great points, but I think you take them too far.
> 
> 
> Don't think it is that clear cut. You may be right but I am unsure. I would love to know what Matt thinks.
> 
> *He already answered. He said that Mrs M was a great mother....when she was there. For him that is damning.*
> 
> Well, I've questioned this too, but a woman who goes out one night a week with her husband and one night a week for a hobby (say evening classes or something) is going to be leaving the kids with sitters close to that often. Do the maths. So not all that unusual I would think.
> 
> *When you go out with your husband and you have children you don;t stay out all night. When you have a hobby and you have young children you don't stay out all night.*
> 
> Both Matt and MrsM report that they discussed and agreed she should take this trip. Not being there if the son got sick was an inevitable consequence of that decision.
> 
> *Did her son agree? When children are sick they always want their mother. How do you think that child felt when he was sick and looked around for his mother only to find empty space. A mother that is not there for her child is not a mother. She should not be away doing this project because when she gave birth she should have changed her responsibilities so she could be there for her son. THAT'S WHAT MOTHERS DO.*
> 
> If Matt really doesn't want her to go and is too scared to speak up, then he needs to grow a pair and speak up. But that is not my reading of Matt.
> 
> *He's not scared. He's a gentleman. There's a big difference. And its not up to Matt to tell Mrs M to grow up and be a mother to their son nor is it up to Matt to tell his unfaithful what what she needs to do to repair their marriage. She should already be doing everything possible if she truly wants to save it.*
> 
> 
> 
> If you hired a sitter and took your wife out for a date once a fortnight, that would be 260 days the kids were left with a sitter. You are saying less than 125 times the kids were left with a sitter, therefore you go out less than once a month. If that is true I would counsel you to make more time for your wife. Or have I misunderstood you?
> 
> *Actually when my children were very young, as Matt's child is, we didn't go out much at all. I'd say we went out maybe 3 or 4 times a year without the children. That was how my wife wanted it because she never wanted to be away from them for long. That's what a mother does. Puts the children first.*
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative, or to say there are no problems. Just trying to keep perspective.
> 
> *My perspective hasn't changed. She's not thinking of her son let alone Matt. They fall somewhere down on her list of priorities. Much farther down than her career, her students, her lover, etc.*


----------



## Decorum

She wants her husband back and will go to great lengths to get him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Would you do the same?
> 
> *What is wrong with an arrangement where the husband is the primary caregiver?*
> 
> Surely the issue here is a need for more time into the marriage, rather than into motherhood.


There is a big difference between primary caregiver and sole caregiver. Being gone 1/3 of the time puts Matt closer to the latter and Mrs M as something I don't want to say out loud.


----------



## bfree

Decorum said:


> She wants her husband back and will go to great lengths to get him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But why does she want him back? That's the question she cannot answer because she has shown through actions she didn't want him. And now she is showing through action that she isn't willing to work to get him back. She's not there for him right now just like she wasn't there for him for the last year. Add in the affair and the circumstances around that and its no wonder even a man as loving and good such as Matt is having a hard time finding a reason to stay with her.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok. The job I am on not is NOT the environment when I met OM. It is an outside contract. Regardless, blaming this on my job feels WAY more like rug sweeping than looking for the actual source.
> 
> Here's the fact. I could have ANY job or NO job, and had I repeated my behavior prior to the affair the SAME thing would have happened. The fault is MINE as a person. I stopped COMMUNICATING with Matt, projected my own negative opinions about myself onto him, and then drew away even further. I then found an outside individual unrelated to that inner negativity to connect with. So while me therapist may be an idiot (I don't know, having never been I therapy before and neither do you from the minuscule amount of information that has been shared regarding my sessions) I can understand the motivation for making me want to address and overcome my self-esteem issues as they relate to this issue substantially.
> 
> I am done replying here for a while. Going to try to enjoy my evening with Matt and get through the next ten days. As always, thank you for your constructive ideas and criticisms. They really do make me think about a lot of things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You would be correct about a job but it is not a job for you, it is a life. Both of your lives are now in conflict.


----------



## Wazza

Bfree, did MrsM say she was out all night 16 weeks of the year? or that she was working on shows and therefore not there to put her son to bed? I thought it was the latter.

I agree MrsM has done a poor job of time allocation, though I don't agree with all the specifics of what you say, and in particular I don't believe it is the woman's job to put their career on hold, nor that a couple should neglect their marriage when the children are young. That is not to disparage choices you and your wife made. Just to say there are other options out there.

And yes Matt has been a gentleman in what he says online, but not a pushover. He knows whether he was supportive of MrsM going on this trip or not. If she went against his wishes, of course he has the right to take umbrage under the circumstances. And if not, then why not accept MrsM's word that she is serving out existing commitments but saying no to new ones? 

I guess I am happy to throw ideas at the Mathiases, but I don't want to tell them what to think.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Bfree, did MrsM say she was out all night 16 weeks of the year? or that she was working on shows and therefore not there to put her son to bed? I thought it was the latter.
> 
> *It doesn't matter to her son whether she was out all night or not. She was not there to put him to bed in his formative years. Its an important mother/son bonding ritual that most mothers would not want to miss but apparently Mrs M did not mind missing. If it was important to her she would have found a way to be there for her son. And Matt has already stated that she was not there for him either. I'm not sure what else needs to be said.*
> 
> I agree MrsM has done a poor job of time allocation, though I don't agree with all the specifics of what you say, and in particular I don't believe it is the woman's job to put their career on hold, nor that a couple should neglect their marriage when the children are young. That is not to disparage choices you and your wife made. Just to say there are other options out there.
> 
> *My wife and I did not neglect our marriage at all. Quite the contrary. We included out children as part of the family unit. When the children went to bed, that was our time to bond and have some couple time. We didn't always need to go out to date. Dating activities can be done at home just as well. Its not the venue but the people in the venue that make a date.*
> 
> 
> And yes Matt has been a gentleman in what he says online, but not a pushover. He knows whether he was supportive of MrsM going on this trip or not. If she went against his wishes, of course he has the right to take umbrage under the circumstances. And if not, then why not accept MrsM's word that she is serving out existing commitments but saying no to new ones?
> 
> *Because the BS should not have to take the WS by the hand and lead them through R. It is the WS job to demonstrate that they are contrite and remoseful through actions. What is it we say? Actions matter. Matt has already been through multiple false R. How does he know this is just not another false R? She has not demonstrated WITH ACTIONS that she is truly remoseful and desperate to keep her marriage intact.If Matt takes her back and decides to continue the marriage that is a huge sacrifice on his part. What has Mrs M sacrificed? Shouldn't she make some sacrifices since she was the one that betrayed her husband and son?*
> 
> 
> I guess I am happy to throw ideas at the Mathiases, but I don't want to tell them what to think.
> 
> *Sometimes we need to listen to what people are saying and not just read the words on the screen. Matt said on multiple occasions he complained before her affair about her time away from the family and their son. She was pulling away from them long before she attached herself to CJ. Matt also called her former gay assistant "her work husband." What do you think he might have meant by that? To me it means that she put at least as much emphasis on her job as she did her family. That's not how it should be for someone who truly cares. Is the job there to support the family or vice versa? Mrs M needs to decide where her priorities lie because up until now she has been her own top priority. Whatever mattered to her got her full attention. Her life is one long dramatic performance and Matt, her son, her students, CJ, etc are all just characters in her life play. I don't have to tell Matt how to think. His words convey his thoughts quite well. You say that many women keep their careers and have families. I agree. Will you agree that while some people can have a drink once in a while some others would be better served to not drink at all if they cannot handle alcohol. Mrs M's job is her addiction and she is out feeding her addiction right now. She has demonstrated that she values the theater more than she values her family. So long as that dynamic exists she should be single and free to be a careerist. If she truly wants a family then she should damned well act like it.*


----------



## dogman

bfree said:


> But why does she want him back? That's the question she cannot answer because she has shown through actions she didn't want him. And now she is showing through action that she isn't willing to work to get him back. She's not there for him right now just like she wasn't there for him for the last year. Add in the affair and the circumstances around that and its no wonder even a man as loving and good such as Matt is having a hard time finding a reason to stay with her.


People are very capable of temporary insanity. I don't mean that literally but, after this sort of thing I'm sure Mrs M looks back at her actions and wonders why she did some of the stuff she did.

I didn't think this was so until I had a breakdown of sorts and for about 6 months I didn't recognize myself. I made decisions based on things other that what I usually valued. Afterward I'm left trying to figure out what I was thinking. I mean that literally. I needed to figure it out to avoid it happening again.

So, I can understand her predicament although different from my situation it comes from a place of clearing the wreckage and coming back to what you valued all along although it would seem like those things didn't matter.

I hope my point came across. It's hard to put into words.


With all that said, I think Matt should run away screaming and if thats true then maybe my wife should as well.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok. The job I am on not is NOT the environment when I met OM. It is an outside contract. Regardless, blaming this on my job feels WAY more like rug sweeping than looking for the actual source.
> 
> *But you had sex with him in exactly that environment right? That environment was the catalyst that triggered your interractions with him. And nobody is suggesting you blame the environment. What we are suggesting is that it is not an environment that you can handle AND be a successful wife and mother. It is also an environment that will trigger Matt as long as you remain there. If you can't see that then you're too far gone already.*
> 
> Here's the fact. I could have ANY job or NO job, and had I repeated my behavior prior to the affair the SAME thing would have happened. The fault is MINE as a person. I stopped COMMUNICATING with Matt, projected my own negative opinions about myself onto him, and then drew away even further. I then found an outside individual unrelated to that inner negativity to connect with. So while me therapist may be an idiot (I don't know, having never been I therapy before and neither do you from the minuscule amount of information that has been shared regarding my sessions) I can understand the motivation for making me want to address and overcome my self-esteem issues as they relate to this issue substantially.
> 
> *So changing the scenery won't help? When you are directing a play do you keep the same scenery for every scene? Or do you change it up depending upon what you are trying to project? Are you trying to project the image of a wife and mother or a successful drama teacher and theater director?*
> 
> I am done replying here for a while. Going to try to enjoy my evening with Matt and get through the next ten days. As always, thank you for your constructive ideas and criticisms. They really do make me think about a lot of things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

bfree said:


> Mrs M, if you remember I was very supportive of your efforts until I realized that there really weren't any efforts at all. If I can empathize with Matt it is only because I was in the same position as Matt. What he is feeling I felt. You do not realize how fortunate you are that Matt is the gentleman that he is.
> 
> Let's just go over this for a bit.
> 
> You had a child and proceeded to dump said child in your husband's lap while you selfishly gave all your effort and attention to your career and job.
> 
> You robbed your son of many nights with his mother during his formative years when he should be bonding with you.
> 
> You robbed and defrauded your husband of time and love with his wife.
> 
> You were gone 1/3 of the time when you should have been home with your family. That is not succeeding at marriage or motherhood regardless of what you may try to rationalize.
> 
> And we haven't even started with what you did by having an affair, cuckolding your husband at the very place he works with a student he taught! And at his house right under his nose!
> 
> You didn't "value" your marriage until you were about to lose it and frankly haven't done much to SHOW that you "value" it even today.
> 
> You want to know why Matt was angry when you sent your "friend" to help him? Because he wanted and needed YOU to be there. Not a lackey. He is too much of a gentleman to say it. That is how much you value your marriage. Sending someone else to do YOUR most important job while you made sure to do what YOU wanted to do.
> 
> Let me ask you this. If Matt wasn't around and you were a single mother would you have stayed home to care for your sick son or would you have sent a substitute mother like you did when Matt was sick? I think you still would have chosen your "project" because that is what you really love. Everything else falls in behind that. Your damned right Matt is strong. Your son is lucky to have him as a father. I get angry because I see how you take advantage of Matt and his good nature. I get angry because sometimes I wish he would tell you what he really feels about you. I get angry because he DOESN'T DESERVE THIS! But he is too good a man to say it. So I do because you need to hear it.
> 
> You just don't get it. And I don't think you ever will.
> 
> And let me add that I don't think my wife has been away from our children for 125 days in the last TEN YEARS. And you were gone that much in ONE YEAR! You know why my wife was there so much. Because she knew she wanted to have children and she chose a career that would allow her to be a good mother. Think about that.


Just a few items - it may not be welcome since I'm also a WW but...

The hours of time a mother spends at time does not directly equal a 'good mother'. For the first 8 - 10 years of my daughters' lives, I WAS a young, single mother who worked full time, sometimes two jobs. The hours I did spend with them were fully focused on them and enjoying that time thoroughly. I can ensure you they never felt neglected. 

When working a few of my jobs, it involved travelling quite a bit as my current job does as well. This does not make me a bad mother nor a bad wife. My husband and I talk about goals and time management more now to ensure that each feels that their needs are being met and to ensure that communication remains open and strong. 

What makes a bad mother is neglect or disconnect of caring about their child.

What makes a bad wife is neglect or disconnect of caring about their spouse. 

Why is it that no one pillories a father for working long hours but a mother is vilified for doing the same?

Just my two cents...


----------



## bfree

TCSRedhead said:


> Just a few items - it may not be welcome since I'm also a WW but...
> 
> The hours of time a mother spends at time does not directly equal a 'good mother'. For the first 8 - 10 years of my daughters' lives, I WAS a young, single mother who worked full time, sometimes two jobs. The hours I did spend with them were fully focused on them and enjoying that time thoroughly. I can ensure you they never felt neglected.
> 
> When working a few of my jobs, it involved travelling quite a bit as my current job does as well. This does not make me a bad mother nor a bad wife. My husband and I talk about goals and time management more now to ensure that each feels that their needs are being met and to ensure that communication remains open and strong.
> 
> What makes a bad mother is neglect or disconnect of caring about their child.
> 
> What makes a bad wife is neglect or disconnect of caring about their spouse.
> 
> Why is it that no one pillories a father for working long hours but a mother is vilified for doing the same?
> 
> Just my two cents...


Actually a few male posters mentioned how they changed their jobs after they had children so they could be home more. My wife changed careers after we had our first child but so did I so I could be a good dad. Mrs M was gone way too much and Matt told her repeatedly she was not home enough. Being a single mother your children's wefare was solely on you. Financially you had to work hard to provide for your girls. Mrs M chose work over family even when it wasn't necessary. She was gone 1/3 of the time and her son didn't see her for weeks at a time (abandonment issues?). That's the issue at hand and it lead directly to her disconnecting and eventually having an affair.

And btw, your opinion is always welcome.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

First I will apologize to bfree for being a snotty b1tch earlier. You didn't deserve that and I am making a significant effort to thinking logically rather than emotionally in all areas of my life and I did not do that last night.

Now, I understand people with traditional jobs and traditional gender roles don't understand or particularly value alternative arrangements. In many situations the father is not there to put the child to bed every night, etc., but because it is the FATHER it is much more societally acceptable than for the mother to be the one working. Also, very rarely do parents change their entire career field because they became parents. Perhaps if Matt and I were the kind of people who just had "jobs" to earn money. But we're not. Our jobs are a result of our creative drives, personalities, and energy. It's not simply a paycheck. We are lucky to do something we are passionate about to make a living rather than be someone who hates their life for 40-60 hours of every week. It is as much of who we are as people and why we were attracted to each other as our physical appearance. 

Can I balance priorities better? Of course. More importantly, can I make sure that Matt is included in ALL my experiences so that we always have a common ground, shared energy, and passion? Yes. Is it a gross exaggeration to say I was out all night 14-16 weeks a year? Of course. Most evenings, rehearsals finish between 8-10, but I do miss bedtime. What about a mother who works second shift and never puts her children to bed? Does she not love them because they share breakfasts instead? It's all hypothetical. The root of Matt's dissatisfaction with me at home wasn't the amount of time that I was gone, but that I had no energy when I was present. So, I am changing that. Not only have I lessened my outside commitments/rehearsals substantially (and to be honest, to the detriment of my students' achievement levels a little), but I am also substantially more engaged at home. I don't watch TV, read, or web surf in my spare time anymore. I sit with Matt, converse, and watch him play games or paint.

You can say I don't get it, but I think I do. Matt and I have spoken very clearly about my work and our lives. He specifically notes that it was the most recent batch of students that increase their level of neediness and my interactions with them ratcheted up in response. After what we've been through, it's much easier for me to simply not engage with new students to that level. If I never know their problems/needs, I can't feel guilty for not helping them. As a result, personal boundaries are stronger and time allocation is better.

We are looking for other jobs and as a result, moving to a different environment. But, that takes time, and we have contracts to honor through the end of the academic year. Other people remain at their jobs out of financial necessity and other reasons, even if it means they still see the AP. I am not doing that, nor am I saying that is right. But families in our situation need to consider all aspects, and the reality is, finances and job stability is a big part of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

When the gender roles reverse, when dads are the primary caregivers, what we normally see on this site is the wives lose respect (and don't understand why) and then they cheat.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> First I will apologize to bfree for being a snotty b1tch earlier. You didn't deserve that and I am making a significant effort to thinking logically rather than emotionally in all areas of my life and I did not do that last night.
> 
> *Apology not necessary. I say what I think and sometimes I deserve a good head slap (JCD is good at doing that for me.) I also sometimes will say something provocative specifically to jar someone out of their comfort zone.*
> 
> Now, I understand people with traditional jobs and traditional gender roles don't understand or particularly value alternative arrangements. In many situations the father is not there to put the child to bed every night, etc., but because it is the FATHER it is much more societally acceptable than for the mother to be the one working. Also, very rarely do parents change their entire career field because they became parents. Perhaps if Matt and I were the kind of people who just had "jobs" to earn money. But we're not. Our jobs are a result of our creative drives, personalities, and energy. It's not simply a paycheck. We are lucky to do something we are passionate about to make a living rather than be someone who hates their life for 40-60 hours of every week. It is as much of who we are as people and why we were attracted to each other as our physical appearance.
> 
> *My wife and I both changed careers when we had children specifically so that we could both be there for the family unit. What you and Matt must decide if you R is whether your current career is viable for the future in as how it relates to your responsibilities as wife and mother. Also, understand that what Matt finds attractive in you now is probably different from when you were dating. A man may be attracted to a women who is vivacious and a party girl but once they are married if she continues her party girl ways that attraction will be short lived. He may have loved your drive and determination when it came to your job but now that you have a child maybe his more immediate need is for you to apply that same gusto to family oriented activities. Our needs change as we live and grow. Its your job to adapt as necessary.*
> 
> Can I balance priorities better? Of course. More importantly, can I make sure that Matt is included in ALL my experiences so that we always have a common ground, shared energy, and passion? Yes. Is it a gross exaggeration to say I was out all night 14-16 weeks a year? Of course. Most evenings, rehearsals finish between 8-10, but I do miss bedtime. What about a mother who works second shift and never puts her children to bed? Does she not love them because they share breakfasts instead? It's all hypothetical. The root of Matt's dissatisfaction with me at home wasn't the amount of time that I was gone, but that I had no energy when I was present. So, I am changing that. Not only have I lessened my outside commitments/rehearsals substantially (and to be honest, to the detriment of my students' achievement levels a little), but I am also substantially more engaged at home. I don't watch TV, read, or web surf in my spare time anymore. I sit with Matt, converse, and watch him play games or paint.
> 
> 
> *These recent changes are good and I will give you a lot of credit. Since you say that you were home some of the time even if it wasn't specifically bedtime I'll also retract my abandonment comment. However, I will never understand what could possibly be more important than spending time with your son. In my own case, it would have killed me if I couldn't be there to tuck in my boys and read them a bedtime story. There is nothing in this world that could have dragged me away from that pleasure. Maybe, as Matt states, your remarkable ability to compartmentalize allows you to not think about your son and focus on other tasks. I'm fairly certain that is not really a good thing however. I will warn you that Matt is in emotional limbo right now and even if he is not aware of it your job and possibly your career is a huge potential trigger for him. He may not say it because he may not in fact realize why he is triggering when he does. Just look around at other threads where people are trying to reconcile and you'll see that triggers are often not explainable. I'm just letting you know in case you want to find a way to minimize his triggers.*
> 
> You can say I don't get it, but I think I do. Matt and I have spoken very clearly about my work and our lives. He specifically notes that it was the most recent batch of students that increase their level of neediness and my interactions with them ratcheted up in response. After what we've been through, it's much easier for me to simply not engage with new students to that level. If I never know their problems/needs, I can't feel guilty for not helping them. As a result, personal boundaries are stronger and time allocation is better.
> 
> *Again, good goals and it sounds like you have taken some precautions. But much more may be necessary before Matt is comfortable again.*
> 
> 
> We are looking for other jobs and as a result, moving to a different environment. But, that takes time, and we have contracts to honor through the end of the academic year. Other people remain at their jobs out of financial necessity and other reasons, even if it means they still see the AP. I am not doing that, nor am I saying that is right. But families in pure situation need to consider all aspects, and the reality is, finances and job stability is a big part of life.
> 
> *You need to know that I am not aware of any cases where a successful reconciliation took place where the WS remained at the job after a workplace affair. The workplace and the environment is a trigger for the BS and as long as that dynamic remains true healing cannot begin.*


----------



## SoulStorm

TCSRedhead said:


> Just a few items - it may not be welcome since I'm also a WW but...
> 
> The hours of time a mother spends at time does not directly equal a 'good mother'. For the first 8 - 10 years of my daughters' lives, I WAS a young, single mother who worked full time, sometimes two jobs. The hours I did spend with them were fully focused on them and enjoying that time thoroughly. I can ensure you they never felt neglected.
> 
> When working a few of my jobs, it involved travelling quite a bit as my current job does as well. This does not make me a bad mother nor a bad wife. My husband and I talk about goals and time management more now to ensure that each feels that their needs are being met and to ensure that communication remains open and strong.
> 
> What makes a bad mother is neglect or disconnect of caring about their child.
> 
> What makes a bad wife is neglect or disconnect of caring about their spouse.
> 
> Why is it that no one pillories a father for working long hours but a mother is vilified for doing the same?
> 
> Just my two cents...


Good point.
No one is really being astute about the long hours of truly working. That can be fixed in time. Throw in an affair and you have raised a whole new dynamic. The long hours + the time given to the AP in conjunction with those long hours turn the knife if you will.
That stolen time could have been given to the child and husband or wife.
I agree, you can give quality time when you are there to give it, however throw in an affair and the energy to be a good bonafide quality spending parent becomes rather difficult if not next to impossible.


----------



## JCD

TCSRedhead said:


> What makes a bad mother is neglect or disconnect of caring about their child.
> 
> What makes a bad wife is neglect or disconnect of caring about their spouse.
> 
> Why is it that no one pillories a father for working long hours but a mother is vilified for doing the same?
> 
> Just my two cents...


Well said. I am, if anything, MORE absent than anyone here...and yet I struggle to make the time with my family meaningful and connected.

But I am not pilloried....because I'm a man. (Sure I'll be pilloried now...). The funny thing is my kids seem to think I'm the better parent. Funny how that works.


Mrs. M could NOT. NOT avoid this commitment without ruining a LOT of other lives. This has been discussed ad nauseum but it still hasn't sunk in for some. She'd destroy a huge financial investment, ruin what little reputation she still has, and expose both M's to potential lawsuits. All to change a few nappies for 3 weeks. This is not a rational trade off. She has already been somewhat absent, being away from her son for 10 days will not turn him into a delinquent. And recall, for half of this production, her parents are BRINGING HER SON TO HER WORK.

These are not the marks of someone who does not care. At this point, we need to look to future circumstances to judge her. I've driven HOURS to visit family for short periods and it's a huge pain. But she did it. Demanding more io this particular circumstance is unrealistic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

3putt said:


> The problem I have is she jumped right back into the same environment that created this problem to begin with. When adultery happens, you must eliminate all the conditions that led to the betrayal to begin with. Not only are they not eliminated, she is actively engaging in said conditions as we speak. Okay, she has a chaperone, making calls, sending emails, snail mail, blah, blah, blah.
> IMHO, that doesn't amount to jack squat.
> She has chosen to still engage in the activity that led to this train wreck.


I think it's a huge mistake. The enviroment (projects like this) is not the same one that "created" the problem as we are meaning here. Actually the enviroment was the school, very close to home, even at home. The "real enviroment" is her poor boundaries with students/former and crow of inmature people she chose to be involved to get most of her emotional needs. Remember OM was a former student for years who later become a colaborator at school, he wasn't a random AP.
Many people still mistake the work as the "cause" of this affair. I do believe it's in part the cause of neglect, the dismisal of the marriage but not the affair itself. She could be a workaholic even she worked on a factory or as a estate agent. OM is now "fired" from the factory, so to speak.
I can't talk for Matt but I imagine he triggers way more every time she goes to the main workplace (school theater). Except for long distance it doesn't seem she cheated in this kind of out of town projects. It would be interesting to hear from it.
Even if he didn't sign for the last so detrimental two years period of huge involvement Matt accepted and supported his wife's work particularities from the very beggining as military spouses do. It was part of the package. He's obviously rethinking it now as he envision the future an weight the pros and cons of remain married.

I doubt Matt sees this previously scheduled travel the same way many here intepret it. Many people projecting here I believe. Mrs actions let her become an extra delicious target to project, that's for sure.


ETA
Damm, just read Mrs answers. I admit I agree with her in this particular.


----------



## TCSRedhead

I agree with you Acabado - the environment is not the long hours or perceived 'non-alpha' issue, it's about not having proper boundaries which can happen just as easily for a SAHM or a woman working in an office or a woman working in the theatre.


----------



## JCD

I think one thing which will hurt her chances of R more than anything is something she can't do anything about: to wit, the fact she is an actress.

Even if she quit the theater, with it's bevy of drama queens (and the girls are pretty bad too!), she can't 'stop' being an actress. The skills are inside of her and can't be removed.

Now, being in the theater doesn't help, but at this point it's sort of a moot point. Matt has a hard time trusting her because he's seen her put on fake emotions on stage for decades, particularly her latest 6 month off Broadway run "Dinner with Dipsh*t." The critics said she emoted quite well in that one, but the tragic plot was all too predictable. She did the best she could with the role, but her future career is murky. Let's hope she broadens her roles to less incendiary roles.

**

One caution to both sides of the 'how much time are you spending home, you brazen strumpet?" question.

I am unimpressed with merely breaking it down to numbers. Matt said it best: he was tired of being married to a zombie. He was tired of the parade of strangers who just HAD to come over and spend the night. He was tired of having her home but working on her next big project. She might ONLY be away for a third of the year, but when she's home, was she there? She says she was...and I believe she believes that. Matt might also be underestimating her contributions. But something is off kilter here.

I dont' say this to be mean. I fight with the same things. I stay away from home so long it's hard to move back into the role of husband and father. It's a mental shift. At one point, my wife and kids were all nudging their way into my private mental space, making me feel claustrophobic. Too many times in the past, I'd go to a different room, grab a computer, retreat to the bathroom. I get it. 

But I made a mental effort to NOT do any of those things. It's something you need to realize in yourself and it's hard.

This might be a skill you might garner Mrs. M. SOME days you will fail...but if you work on it and start to block out your time starting with the kid and husband (but not ONLY them) you're more likely to not let your work fill up your life and overwhelm you.

Now before the TAM long timers barrell into me, this is the exact same thing we caution the men about: that they let 'family' take up so much of their lives outside of work that they become ONLY Mr. Mom. She has had the reverse problem but the solution is NOT to make family her ONLY interest...okay...yes, for a while, but it's just as dangerous for her as it is for men to make it permanent.

Find a balance. So far, you haven't but you seem to be trying

#4 I am trying to find a balance EVERY day.


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I have a day off today so I thought I'd check in and update my thread.
> 
> Number one - my son is NOT a mistake and that line of discussion is absolutely ENDED. He is wonderful, adorable, and brilliant, and I have loved every minute with him since he has been born. You can say what you want about me being a sh1tty mother because of my affair - but the fact is, I breastfed him for 2 years, babywore instead of using a stroller, made all his baby food from scratch, cloth diapered, and help bathe him, read to him, and put him to bed every single night that I am home. The world is full of crappy, neglectful parents, and as much as i HATE myself for the mess I have made of my life over the last year - I KNOW I am a caring, good mother.
> 
> Second... actions. I drove 3.5 hours last night to come home on my one day off to spend with Matt and our son. I will drive back for rehearsal tomorrow morning. I am carrying the voice activated recorder every minute of every day. I have my chaperone with me. I call/text Matt and our son several times each day to let them know I am thinking of them, and try to speak with them each night before bedtime. I even mailed a card to Matt so he would get a different form of communication from me than is typical while I am away. It is still sitting unopened on the table.
> 
> Matt's and my phone conversations have been going well - we've only had one night where things turned angry/upset. I've enjoyed hearing from him about his adventures discovering Minecraft and finishing his zombies, and it seems he has been interested in my rehearsals and the process so far. The show is going relatively well, and I have only needed to use my Xanax prescription to get through one day so far.
> 
> I have been telling Matt EVERYTHING that I feel and sharing even the bad stuff I sometimes go through, instead of trying to save that from him. I still feel incredibly awkward about it, because I am sure it pales compared to his pain and struggles, but I want to be completely open to him. When I got back last night, we spent an hour or so having casual conversation and then the topic turned to our relationship and the affair. It didn't end positively, I slept in the guest room (my new room) which I hadn't done since before Christmas.
> 
> It was wonderful to wake up to my son this morning though, and Matt let me pour his coffee and run an errand that he needed done today, so I was glad to have that opportunity to do a little something for him while I am home. I spent the afternoon making homemade soup while our son napped, and I am hopeful we have a nice evening together as a family. As much as possible anyway, given the terrible mess that I have put us through.
> 
> I scheduled a counseling session today while I was home and it was good to check in with her. We talked about the past week, and what it's been like to be out of town, how helpless i feel with the struggles that Matt has has (sick, daycare closed, son sick) and how I feel like it's hard for me to know what to do. When I arranged a friend to watch our son while Matt was sick so he could rest, Matt seemed angry about that. So then when the daycare was closed, I didn't do anything but offer him information. He decided not to pursue it, and ended up missing the first two days of the semester which makes me feel even more awful. It's so difficult to walk the line of taking actions to show him I care and I am working (even if he says not to because I've been told he doesn't know what he wants by the vets here), and showing him respect by allowing him to handle these situations himself.
> 
> In addition we talked about how my job is going, and my overwhelming negativity towards myself in all aspects of life. She says every time I think something negative about myself I have to list 5 positive things immediately after. That's impossible right now... I don't think there are five things on that list. But I'll start small...
> 
> 1. My son always seems happy to see me.
> 
> 2. I make really good scrambled eggs, and I think good chicken and rice soup. Especially considering I am not terribly domestically inclined.
> 
> 3. My colleagues always seem to be pleased with my work.
> 
> Hopefully I can add to that list one day at a time. * I love my family more than anything, and I am trying every day to show them that, from both near and far.*


Correction Mrs M.

You counted wrong....

4. I love my family more than anything!

5. I am trying everyday to show them that

Keep up the fight. Straighten your issues out. No matter what road Matt decides to take with respect to your marriage never forget 4 & 5.

No matter what he decides.

Finish your job. Make it the best production ever. Then you and Matt work together to secure your family as best you can.

It takes two!

But you can show him the way......

HM64


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear Mrs_Mathias,

Let me make a few observations on your post (this is going to be rough, so brace yourself):



Mrs_Mathias said:


> *First I will apologize to bfree for being a snotty b1tch earlier.* *[Yes, you apologize, but then you spend the majority of your post rationalizing and justifying both your past and current behavior as regards your career and family (see below). Thus, I'd call this an insincere apology.]* You didn't deserve that and I am making a significant effort to thinking logically rather than emotionally in all areas of my life and I did not do that last night.
> 
> *Now, I understand people with traditional jobs and traditional gender roles don't understand or particularly value alternative arrangements.* *[Your first attempt to rationalize your behavior -- the posters on this thread are **just a bunch of unsophisiticated rubes who can't possibly understand your life or give you good advice.]* *In many situations the father is not there to put the child to bed every night, etc., but because it is the FATHER it is much more societally acceptable than for the mother to be the one working.* *[Your second rationalization: times have changed -- in the brave, new (feminist) age in which we live, no one should expect a woman to put her marriage and motherhood above her career.]* *Also, very rarely do parents change their entire career field because they became parents.* *[Your third rationalization: no one puts their families first anymore. This is untrue. Many people change careers or make career sacrifices for their families. I gave up an opportunity to become a partner at a major law firm and took a much lower paying job so that I could have more time to spend with my spouse and children. I'm sure many other posters on TAM could point to similar decisions.]* *Perhaps if Matt and I were the kind of people who just had "jobs" to earn money. But we're not. Our jobs are a result of our creative drives, personalities, and energy. It's not simply a paycheck. We are lucky to do something we are passionate about to make a living rather than be someone who hates their life for 40-60 hours of every week.* *[A variation on your first rationalization: you and Matt (although I don't think DrMathias sees himself this way) are special people with special callings who can't be expected to put their families first, unlike the rest of us poor working stiffs who have miserable lives and unfulfilling jobs and therefore have nothing better to do than spend a lot of time with our families.]* It is as much of who we are as people and why we were attracted to each other as our physical appearance.
> 
> *Can I balance priorities better? Of course. More importantly, can I make sure that Matt is included in ALL my experiences so that we always have a common ground, shared energy, and passion? Yes.* *["Balancing priorities" is, to my mind, a way of avoiding priorities. If you have priorities, you take care of the most important first, and only when that is done do you move on to the next most important. You have not balanced anything in your life recently. Rather, you put yourself and your own selfish "needs" ahead of your family and, frankly, even ahead of your career (it can't have been a good career move to have an affair with a student). You seem to be saying that, yes, I'd like to fix my marriage and save my family, but not at the cost of my career. To me, that is not making your marriage and family your priority; quite the opposite.]* *Is it a gross exaggeration to say I was out all night 14-16 weeks a year? Of course. Most evenings, rehearsals finish between 8-10, but I do miss bedtime. What about a mother who works second shift and never puts her children to bed? Does she not love them because they share breakfasts instead? It's all hypothetical.* *[Another rationalization. You seem intentionally to be missing the other posters' point, that for a long time you did not spend enough time with DrMathias and your son. Who cares if it was 10 or 14 or 16 weeks that you were not there to put your son to bed and be with your husband. The point is (and there's nothing hypothetical about this) that you were and continue to be absent from your family much too much for someone how claims that they were and are your priority.]* *The root of Matt's dissatisfaction with me at home wasn't the amount of time that I was gone, but that I had no energy when I was present.* *[I suggest that you let DrMathias speak for himself about this, rather than telling him what his problem was. Frankly, from what he's said on his thread, he had (and continues to have) a lot of problems with you.]* *So, I am changing that. Not only have I lessened my outside commitments/rehearsals substantially (and to be honest, to the detriment of my students' achievement levels a little), but I am also substantially more engaged at home. I don't watch TV, read, or web surf in my spare time anymore. I sit with Matt, converse, and watch him play games or paint.* *[This is the first positive thing you said in your post. Too bad it wasn't the first thing, as that would have indicated that you were taking other posters' comments and criticisms to heart and examining yourself to see how you can improve.]
> *
> *You can say I don't get it, but I think I do.* * [I think you don't. In fact, I think you are regressing and falling back into the habit of rationalizing and justifying behavior that contributed to your committing adultery.]* Matt and I have spoken very clearly about my work and our lives. He specifically notes that it was the most recent batch of students that increase their level of neediness and my interactions with them ratcheted up in response. After what we've been through, it's much easier for me to simply not engage with new students to that level. *If I never know their problems/needs, I can't feel guilty for not helping them. As a result, personal boundaries are stronger and time allocation is better.* *[Not sure I understand this point. Are you saying that you need to shirk your responsibilities to your students in order to have a enough time to spend with your family and to remain faithful to DrMathias? If that's the case, then you need to make changing your career a matter of urgency.]*
> 
> *We are looking for other jobs and as a result, moving to a different environment. But, that takes time, and we have contracts to honor through the end of the academic year.* *[Excellent but, again, why wasn't this at the beginning of your post instead of buried at the end after a lengthy diatribe about how no one understands you and why you didn't neglect your family the past few years?]* *Other people remain at their jobs out of financial necessity and other reasons, even if it means they still see the AP. I am not doing that, nor am I saying that is right.* *[If you've read many threads on TAM, you would know that this is utter bullsh*t. Why would you even bring this up? Are you looking for a pat on the back for (finally) trying to do the right thing by DrMathias?]* *But families in our situation need to consider all aspects, and the reality is, finances and job stability is a big part of life.* *[For me, this is the most disheartening statement in your post. "Families in [y]our situation"? Please. Your family is broken, **in some measure **because you valued your career more than your marriage, DrMathias and your son. Can you accept that? And can you accept the fact that, right now, the only thing that you should be "considering" is what YOU can do to fix your marriage and restore your family?]*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs_Mathias, you may recall that I was one of the first to offer you encouragement after you opened this thread. For a while, it seemed that you had finally gotten your head in the right place and were genuinely willing to do _whatever_ it takes to save your marriage. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing that in your recent posts.

In my original post (page 5), I gave you the following advice:

"Second, start a new career. What was absolutely clear from your previous thread is that you have focused most of your energy on teaching and theatre for much of your adult life (more recently, to the exclusion of DrMathias and your son). Undoubtedly, this is a major reason you find yourself in your current predicament. The environment of the theatre world exposed you to influences that warped your values and opened up a Pandora's box of opportunities to engage in self-destructive behavior. This undoubtedly contributed to your abandoning your responsibilities as a wife and mother. If you really want to change, you need to remove yourself from this toxic environment. Your willingness to do so would also send another strong signal to DrMathias that your desire to change is genuine. When your current contract expires, get a job that doesn't involve theatre or teaching and that affords you time to spend with family and loved ones. Your are obviously a very intelligent and talented person. I have little doubt that you could succeed in many professions. Find one that will permit you to have a more normal and healthy personal life."

You and others (perhaps even DrMathias) may disagree with me, but I stand by that advice.

Please understand and accept that, although they are harsh, I offer these comments out a sincere desire to help you and DrMathias.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> You need to know that I am not aware of any cases where a successful reconciliation took place where the WS remained at the job after a workplace affair. The workplace and the environment is a trigger for the BS and as long as that dynamic remains true healing cannot begin.


My wife and I were such an example. OM was a tutor at her college, and she continued studying there after it ended. However the social groups and events that had fostered the affair stopped.


----------



## Chaparral

Wazza said:


> Would you do the same?
> 
> What is wrong with an arrangement where the husband is the primary caregiver?
> 
> Surely the issue here is a need for more time into the marriage, rather than into motherhood.


I thought Matt said he felt like MrsM abandoned him and the baby the last year. He even talked about how little she helped when the baby was ill.


----------



## Wazza

chapparal said:


> I thought Matt said he felt like MrsM abandoned him and the bay the last year. He even talked about how little she helped when the baby was ill.


It is something they need to work through, no doubt. Doesn't necessarily mean MrsM becomes a stay at home mum.

I had the impression that the core of the issue for Matt was her emotional detachment, not her time away.


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> It is something they need to work through, no doubt. Doesn't necessarily mean MrsM becomes a stay at home mum.
> 
> I had the impression that the core of the issue for Matt was her emotional detachment, not her time away.


Why choose one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

JCD said:


> Why choose one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huh?


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> I thought Matt said he felt like MrsM abandoned him and the baby the last year. He even talked about how little she helped when the baby was ill.


When I posted I was thinking about how hard I'd been on Mrs M lately and even though I wanted to continue to challenge her I was looking for things to give her credit for. But you are probably correct. She a bad mother in addition to being an adulteress. Feel better?


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Why choose one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. I've often found they go hand in hand.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Exactly. I've often found they go hand in hand.


Oh, ok yes they are related.

But I suspect the solution is quality of time more than quantity. For example, if MrsM were to be home more but needy students were around as well, not good IMO.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> I think one thing which will hurt her chances of R more than anything is something she can't do anything about: to wit, the fact she is an actress.
> 
> Even if she quit the theater, with it's bevy of drama queens (and the girls are pretty bad too!), *she can't 'stop' being an actress.* The skills are inside of her and can't be removed.
> 
> Now, being in the theater doesn't help, but at this point it's sort of a moot point. Matt has a hard time trusting her because he's seen her put on fake emotions on stage for decades, particularly her latest 6 month off Broadway run "Dinner with Dipsh*t." The critics said she emoted quite well in that one, but the tragic plot was all too predictable. She did the best she could with the role, but her future career is murky. Let's hope she broadens her roles to less incendiary roles.
> 
> **
> 
> One caution to both sides of the 'how much time are you spending home, you brazen strumpet?" question.
> 
> I am unimpressed with merely breaking it down to numbers. Matt said it best: he was tired of being married to a zombie. He was tired of the parade of strangers who just HAD to come over and spend the night. He was tired of having her home but working on her next big project. She might ONLY be away for a third of the year, but when she's home, was she there? She says she was...and I believe she believes that. Matt might also be underestimating her contributions. But something is off kilter here.
> 
> I dont' say this to be mean. I fight with the same things. I stay away from home so long it's hard to move back into the role of husband and father. It's a mental shift. At one point, my wife and kids were all nudging their way into my private mental space, making me feel claustrophobic. Too many times in the past, I'd go to a different room, grab a computer, retreat to the bathroom. I get it.
> 
> But I made a mental effort to NOT do any of those things. It's something you need to realize in yourself and it's hard.
> 
> This might be a skill you might garner Mrs. M. SOME days you will fail...but if you work on it and start to block out your time starting with the kid and husband (but not ONLY them) you're more likely to not let your work fill up your life and overwhelm you.
> 
> Now before the TAM long timers barrell into me, this is the exact same thing we caution the men about: that they let 'family' take up so much of their lives outside of work that they become ONLY Mr. Mom. She has had the reverse problem but the solution is NOT to make family her ONLY interest...okay...yes, for a while, but it's just as dangerous for her as it is for men to make it permanent.
> 
> Find a balance. So far, you haven't but you seem to be trying
> 
> #4 I am trying to find a balance EVERY day.


I kept going over this statement in my mind today. I'm not saying you are wrong. But if you are right this troubles me and is probably why I've been so adamant about her changing her career. Let me explain.

If drama is in her blood as you say then no matter how hard she tries she is always going to be drawn back to that world. She may be able to manage it for a while but she will always burn for the stage. I'm not sure she could give up her career in drama or theater if Matt asked her to. If she did decide to squash her passion I think she would build up resentment and eventually it would interfere with their marriage to the extent that they wouldn't be able to stay married. The trouble is that I don't think she can manage her love for drama and theater and balance that with the demands of wife and mother. As children grow they require more attention, not less. She will forever be subjected to a tug of war between motherhood and her career. Matt would forever be subjected to periods where she was miserable but home or happy and away satisfying her heart's true calling. If this is true then maybe the best thing is for her and Matt to split up now when their child is still young so as to not subject him to the stresses of this constant emotional turmoil later and the pangs of eventual divorce down the road. Either that or Matt will have to learn to live with a wife and mother that doesn't put him and his child first and be satisfied with a half marriage and family.

Of course the other part of me that eternally favors reconciliation really wants to be wrong about this. And I take some solace when she says "He (Matt) specifically notes that it was the most recent batch of students that increase their level of neediness and my interactions with them ratcheted up in response." But then I re read her post where she says in response to her cutting back at work "to be honest, to the detriment of my students' achievement levels a little." I hear a very distinct tone of sadness and I have to wonder if she is already developing angst in regards to a reduced work schedule. I also note her extreme defensiveness about her career when mild criticism is leveled by myself, Wazza and 3putt further solidifying my feeling that her career is WHO SHE IS and an attack on her career is an attack on her. I have to question if she can be that person and also mother and wife.

I have to thank you JCD for helping to clarify my thoughts regarding Mrs M and her career choice moving forward. Of course none of this takes into consideration Matt's feelings about her affair and whether or not he can heal from that and stay married to her. But I agree with you JCD that her actress persona definitely complicates things considerably.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Oh, ok yes they are related.
> 
> But I suspect the solution is quality of time more than quantity. For example, if MrsM were to be home more but needy students were around as well, not good IMO.


Time is the most precious commodity in a marriage. And you can't have quality time if you're time is so limited that there isn't enough to go around. Sometimes choices must be made as to where to allocate your time. It just depends on what your priorities are as to where you dedicate your time.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> I kept going over this statement in my mind today. I'm not saying you are wrong. But if you are right this troubles me and is probably why I've been so adamant about her changing her career. Let me explain.
> 
> If drama is in her blood as you say then no matter how hard she tries she is always going to be drawn back to that world. She may be able to manage it for a while but she will always burn for the stage. I'm not sure she could give up her career in drama or theater if Matt asked her to. If she did decide to squash her passion I think she would build up resentment and eventually it would interfere with their marriage to the extent that they wouldn't be able to stay married. The trouble is that I don't think she can manage her love for drama and theater and balance that with the demands of wife and mother. As children grow they require more attention, not less. She will forever be subjected to a tug of war between motherhood and her career. Matt would forever be subjected to periods where she was miserable but home or happy and away satisfying her heart's true calling. If this is true then maybe the best thing is for her and Matt to split up now when their child is still young so as to not subject him to the stresses of this constant emotional turmoil later and the pangs of eventual divorce down the road. Either that or Matt will have to learn to live with a wife and mother that doesn't put him and his child first and be satisfied with a half marriage and family.
> 
> Of course the other part of me that eternally favors reconciliation really wants to be wrong about this. And I take some solace when she says "He (Matt) specifically notes that it was the most recent batch of students that increase their level of neediness and my interactions with them ratcheted up in response." But then I re read her post where she says in response to her cutting back at work "to be honest, to the detriment of my students' achievement levels a little." I hear a very distinct tone of sadness and I have to wonder if she is already developing angst in regards to a reduced work schedule. I also note her extreme defensiveness about her career when mild criticism is leveled by myself, Wazza and 3putt further solidifying my feeling that her career is WHO SHE IS and an attack on her career is an attack on her. I have to question if she can be that person and also mother and wife.
> 
> I have to thank you JCD for helping to clarify my thoughts regarding Mrs M and her career choice moving forward. Of course none of this takes into consideration Matt's feelings about her affair and whether or not he can heal from that and stay married to her. But I agree with you JCD that her actress persona definitely complicates things considerably.


I think too much s being made of the stage.

MrsM works in opera. full of fat ladies in period costumes singing at 50,000 decibels right in your face. I's not very like real life. I people behaved like that on the street it would stand out.

The career was an issue not because it was the stage, but because it was not kept in its place.

My wife and I struggle with this, but we manage it by the number. We make sure we have a date night every week. I make sure I give her a foot rub or massage once a week. Things like that, where if it goes by the wayside you know.

I men this in the nicest possible way, but MrsM's description of things she did for the baby was over the top a bit. Never use a pram? Good grief! I think she is a driven person, and what ever she gets into she will be driven about. 

That's a good thing, she just has to manage it. She didn't manage it with the theatre group or the students.

To that extent, Bfree's, while we argue the details, you and I both see that she needs to think about where she puts her time.

To that end she made some very positive comments in one of her latest posts, about not watching TV, and so on. If she commits to that I think it is a good step.


----------



## Chaparral

bfree said:


> When I posted I was thinking about how hard I'd been on Mrs M lately and even though I wanted to continue to challenge her I was looking for things to give her credit for. But you are probably correct. She a bad mother in addition to being an adulteress. Feel better?


No, I think she lost her way. Many people do, one tiny step at a time. There is no life map and many wrong turns. Some may be to much to overcome. It depends on those involved.


----------



## jim123

With a two year old at home she is concerned about the needy students. It is a choice where to spend time and it tends not to be the family. All her emotions are in her work and that is how she connected with OM. It is not just boundries. Most people work to live while Mrs. lives to work. 

As her son gets older the conflicts will only get bigger. She will get deeper into her work and further from her family.


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> No, I think *she lost her way*. Many people do, one tiny step at a time. There is no life map and many wrong turns. Some may be to much to overcome. It depends on those involved.


I think it depends of what her way was and is. She has admitted (stated) that she is passionate about her career, her drama activities and theater. She has shown somewhat less passion when it comes to being a wife and mother. I'm not criticizing her at all when it comes to this. It may just be that her real focus is less family oriented than many other women. Whereas my wife changed careers and sacrificed much to be with our boys Mrs M may not feel as rewarded if she tried to do the same. She has already stated that she feels her marriage is non traditional saying " I understand people with traditional jobs and traditional gender roles don't understand or particularly value alternative arrangements." Maybe she is a woman that would be perfectly fine pursuing her career with gusto while leaving Matt to be a pseudo house husband. If Matt is fine with that then so be it but he certainly didn't seem to be ok with it when he complained about her schedule or how much energy she dedicated to her job. We also have seen on many occasions cases where the man was the main caretaker and the woman quickly lost respect for him and ended up cheating on him. I don't know enough about the Mathiases situation to conclude if that happened here but Mrs M has already shown she has a wandering eye. I'm not sure if that type of non traditional gender arrangement will work in their case.

(BTW chap I wasn't really blasting you with my response so I hope you didn't take offense. It was more like a wink wink response since I was unsure how else to state it.)


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> I think too much s being made of the stage.
> 
> MrsM works in opera. full of fat ladies in period costumes singing at 50,000 decibels right in your face. I's not very like real life. I people behaved like that on the street it would stand out.
> 
> The career was an issue not because it was the stage, but because it was not kept in its place.
> 
> My wife and I struggle with this, but we manage it by the number. We make sure we have a date night every week. I make sure I give her a foot rub or massage once a week. Things like that, where if it goes by the wayside you know.
> 
> I men this in the nicest possible way, but MrsM's description of things she did for the baby was over the top a bit. Never use a pram? Good grief! I think she is a driven person, and what ever she gets into she will be driven about.
> 
> That's a good thing, she just has to manage it. She didn't manage it with the theater group or the students.
> 
> To that extent, Bfree's, while we argue the details, you and I both see that she needs to think about where she puts her time.
> 
> To that end she made some very positive comments in one of her latest posts, about not watching TV, and so on. If she commits to that I think it is a good step.


My biggest concern is that I think I know where she would like to put her time and its not with her family. He career is her passion and I think it will always be that way. I feel, and maybe some may disagree, that you can really only have one passion. Sure you can enjoy many things but a passion is where you will always default to, where you will always turn to and where your heart lies. I think for Mrs M it is her career, drama, the theater, etc. I'm not saying she doesn't love her son, husband, family etc. But I would think about her career in the same way as someone who is career military or law enforcement. That will always be their focus and if a spouse cannot accept falling in line behind that centerpiece of their existence then they will not be happy.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> I kept going over this statement in my mind today. I'm not saying you are wrong. But if you are right this troubles me and is probably why I've been so adamant about her changing her career. Let me explain.
> 
> snip
> 
> I have to thank you JCD for helping to clarify my thoughts regarding Mrs M and her career choice moving forward. Of course none of this takes into consideration Matt's feelings about her affair and whether or not he can heal from that and stay married to her. But I agree with you JCD that her actress persona definitely complicates things considerably.


Well, don't thank me yet.

The message I wrote actually hit upon one significant point: to which her SKILL SET makes it harder for Dr. M to buy her remorse. Just like Devistated Dad's wife, who was trained as a marital counselor hinders her efforts. That wife knows exactly what a betrayed spouse needs to hear so her...devotion might be questioned...or her responses might seem rote.

In the case of Mrs. M (assuming she is an actress and not purely opera) she is trained to FAKE EMOTIONS. So...how can Dr. M trust any of them? When she is a blubbering wreck spewing snot all over her face, I'm betting she's sincere but short of that?

This is a lingering question.

Now, I DID make the two other points, to wit her need for Theater validation over the validation at home. I am not there so I can't guess how much she does or does not need that...and none of us can either except Dr. M or her counselor.

That is a point to be addressed carefully. Dr. M married his artisitc wife, not a hausfrau. That was what attracted him to her. We go on about how much of a 'gentleman' Dr. M is but perhaps it has more to do with the fact he understands the pressures, personalities and oddities of the artistic life and naturally makes allowances which aren't in our mindsets. Acabado also mentioned some care on this issue.

She's an artist. That isn't an excuse but she needs to choose if she wants to be a Bach (contendedly married until death) or something from a Tennessee Williams play.


The other point was her poor time boundary skills. I think she gets that after about 63 pages of battering. I could be wrong though. 

It's something she needs to focus on regularly as Wazza pointed out.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Well, don't thank me yet.
> 
> The message I wrote actually hit upon one significant point: to which her SKILL SET makes it harder for Dr. M to buy her remorse. Just like Devistated Dad's wife, who was trained as a marital counselor hinders her efforts. That wife knows exactly what a betrayed spouse needs to hear so her...devotion might be questioned...or her responses might seem rote.
> 
> In the case of Mrs. M (assuming she is an actress and not purely opera) she is trained to FAKE EMOTIONS. So...how can Dr. M trust any of them? When she is a blubbering wreck spewing snot all over her face, I'm betting she's sincere but short of that?
> 
> This is a lingering question.
> 
> Now, I DID make the two other points, to wit her need for Theater validation over the validation at home. I am not there so I can't guess how much she does or does not need that...and none of us can either except Dr. M or her counselor.
> 
> That is a point to be addressed carefully. Dr. M married his artistic wife, not a hausfrau. That was what attracted him to her. We go on about how much of a 'gentleman' Dr. M is but perhaps it has more to do with the fact he understands the pressures, personalities and oddities of the artistic life and naturally makes allowances which aren't in our mindsets. Acabado also mentioned some care on this issue.
> 
> She's an artist. That isn't an excuse but she needs to choose if she wants to be a Bach (contendedly married until death) or something from a Tennessee Williams play.
> 
> 
> The other point was her poor time boundary skills. I think she gets that after about 63 pages of battering. I could be wrong though.
> 
> It's something she needs to focus on regularly as Wazza pointed out.


I was hoping you'd post. 

Here is my boggle.

Was the last year an aberration or the norm? Before they had the baby she was free to pursue whatever she wished and since it was only Doc and her they could still find time to be together and reconnect. Now that there is a child more of her attention is required at home for the family and yet she continues to devote much (too much) of her attention to her career. That dynamic will only increase as the child gets older. Matt says that this year was worse because of the needy students. I'm wondering if that is true or she was devoting the same time and attention to her career as in past years but he just wasn't as consciously aware of it because there was no child to consider. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to actually sit down and add up the time she spent away BB (before baby) and AB (after baby). Of course the year she was pregnant will have to be thrown out because that year most likely was indeed an aberration time wise (doctor's appointments, morning sickness etc.) If I were to guess basing it on her comments vis-a-vis her job I would say that this past year was more normal than not, not counting the affair of course which we can never truly remove from any discussion.


----------



## Wazza

MrsM, my understanding is that your primary artistic skill set is singing, not acting. Do I have that right or wrong? Matt, care to comment?

Don't give enough detail to identify or anything...but since MrsM's skill as an actress keeps getting cited, I think it's relevant.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> I was hoping you'd post.
> 
> Here is my boggle.
> 
> Was the last year an aberration or the norm? Before they had the baby she was free to pursue whatever she wished and since it was only Doc and her they could still find time to be together and reconnect. Now that there is a child more of her attention is required at home for the family and yet she continues to devote much (too much) of her attention to her career. That dynamic will only increase as the child gets older. Matt says that this year was worse because of the needy students. I'm wondering if that is true or she was devoting the same time and attention to her career as in past years but he just wasn't as consciously aware of it because there was no child to consider. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to actually sit down and add up the time she spent away BB (before baby) and AB (after baby). Of course the year she was pregnant will have to be thrown out because that year most likely was indeed an aberration time wise (doctor's appointments, morning sickness etc.) If I were to guess basing it on her comments vis-a-vis her job I would say that this past year was more normal than not, not counting the affair of course which we can never truly remove from any discussion.


You could very well be correct. She might not have adjusted her schedule appropriately.

So what? And I say this without the slightest bit of snark.

Many working mothers make that mistake. Many working FATHERS make that mistake. It's a new baby and it's reasonably normal for a person to try to stay to the same schedule...and fail miserably or cause the other spouse to have th shoulder a majority of the burden.

The time factor as outlined by you means she needs to readjust her priorites some. This is not an indication of huge character flaws.

The problem for her is that everyone is looking at the molehill of poor time boundaries and conflating it with the fact that she was using some of that time to bang her former student.

They are seperate issues and projecting evilness onto her time management faux pas seems a bit excessive. 

Let me put it to you this way: if she hadn't banged her student, would she be dealing with this level of rancor on her time management?

I don't think so. We'd smack her up the side of the head, say 'go forth and sin no more' and that would be the end of it.

So they MAY be related and it MAY point to a huge character defect...or it might be just one more sideline which is easily solved and doesn't need to involve deep psychoanalysis.

Maybe I'm giving her too much credit. Maybe people are using any available reason to throw stones at. I'm not sure of the truth.

Thank you for making me think about this.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> You could very well be correct. She might not have adjusted her schedule appropriately.
> 
> So what? And I say this without the slightest bit of snark.
> 
> Many working mothers make that mistake. Many working FATHERS make that mistake. It's a new baby and it's reasonably normal for a person to try to stay to the same schedule...and fail miserably or cause the other spouse to have th shoulder a majority of the burden.
> 
> The time factor as outlined by you means she needs to readjust her priorites some. This is not an indication of huge character flaws.
> 
> The problem for her is that everyone is looking at the molehill of poor time boundaries and conflating it with the fact that she was using some of that time to bang her former student.
> 
> They are seperate issues and projecting evilness onto her time management faux pas seems a bit excessive.
> 
> Let me put it to you this way: if she hadn't banged her student, would she be dealing with this level of rancor on her time management?
> 
> I don't think so. We'd smack her up the side of the head, say 'go forth and sin no more' and that would be the end of it.
> 
> So they MAY be related and it MAY point to a huge character defect...or it might be just one more sideline which is easily solved and doesn't need to involve deep psychoanalysis.
> 
> Maybe I'm giving her too much credit. Maybe people are using any available reason to throw stones at. I'm not sure of the truth.
> 
> Thank you for making me think about this.


Regarding her character you may be right. It may be that her affair is causing me to denigrate her character more than is necessary. However, I'm coming from a perspective of watching my own wife completely adjust her priorities and passions from a career she absolutely loved to a baby she would literally die for. She didn't wait until our son was born, she began those alterations when we first decided to start a family together. Her life focus just changed, right before my eyes. And how could I not follow suit so I also adjusted my career goals so I could be there for her and our children. I'm also keenly aware of the lie perpetrated on women in western civilization that they can have it all without sacrificing anything. You just can't have it all. Choices must me made. Their son is now two I believe. Old enough to begin to wonder where mommy is. I know Mrs M talks about non traditional gender roles but that flies against the biological and emotional needs of children. They need their mother to be there and nurture them especially in the first several years of life. This is the biggest lie and the most damaging one. Men and women can have equal pay, attain equal levels of achievement, have equal rights but MEN AND WOMEN ARE NOT THE SAME. Women are biological created to nurture and children need their mothers. Call me old fashioned if you will but you cannot try to remove biological programming by means of social conditioning without paying a heavy toll. Matt can be the greatest dad in the world (and I think he's pretty damned close already if you ask me) but he cannot substitute for Mrs M in their son's mind and heart. Ok rant over.

I do agree that Mrs M needs to decide where her priorities lie. My fear is that she has already shown by her actions what her passions are and her words continue to voice that desire. You seem to think she just hasn't done a good job of adhering to proper boundaries as it relates to her career. I contend that her boundaries are established and she is adhering to them according to her stated preferences. As I said, I am very much pro R so I hope you're correct and I am wrong. However, I have seen this too many times so I believe I'm going to be proven right in the end.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> Regarding her character you may be right. It may be that her affair is causing me to denigrate her character more than is necessary. However, I'm coming from a perspective of watching my own wife completely adjust her priorities and passions from a career she absolutely loved to a baby she would literally die for. She didn't wait until our son was born, she began those alterations when we first decided to start a family together. Her life focus just changed, right before my eyes. And how could I not follow suit so I also adjusted my career goals so I could be there for her and our children. I'm also keenly aware of the lie perpetrated on women in western civilization that they can have it all without sacrificing anything. You just can't have it all. Choices must me made. Their son is now two I believe. Old enough to begin to wonder where mommy is. I know Mrs M talks about non traditional gender roles but that flies against the biological and emotional needs of children. They need their mother to be there and nurture them especially in the first several years of life. This is the biggest lie and the most damaging one. Men and women can have equal pay, attain equal levels of achievement, have equal rights but MEN AND WOMEN ARE NOT THE SAME. Women are biological created to nurture and children need their mothers. Call me old fashioned if you will but you cannot try to remove biological programming by means of social conditioning without paying a heavy toll. Matt can be the greatest dad in the world (and I think he's pretty damned close already if you ask me) but he cannot substitute for Mrs M in their son's mind and heart. Ok rant over.
> 
> I do agree that Mrs M needs to decide where her priorities lie. My fear is that she has already shown by her actions what her passions are and her words continue to voice that desire. You seem to think she just hasn't done a good job of adhering to proper boundaries as it relates to her career. I contend that her boundaries are established and she is adhering to them according to her stated preferences. As I said, I am very much pro R so I hope you're correct and I am wrong. However, I have seen this too many times so I believe I'm going to be proven right in the end.


I"m glad you are thinking about this. While I mostly agree with your attitudes toward children, it isn't wise or fair to project your preferences onto what she should do.

Also, because she has these operas and such mapped out so far in advance, it makes it more difficult for her to shift gears quickly, this last project as a case in point.

It's okay to excoriate her for her infidelity. It's even okay to snipe some at her time priorities. But she has to figure this out on her own.

Every woman with a career does not hate her kid. Not saying you think that; it's more a cautionary statement.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> I"m glad you are thinking about this. While I mostly agree with your attitudes toward children, it isn't wise or fair to project your preferences onto what she should do.
> 
> Also, because she has these operas and such mapped out so far in advance, it makes it more difficult for her to shift gears quickly, this last project as a case in point.
> 
> It's okay to excoriate her for her infidelity. It's even okay to snipe some at her time priorities. But she has to figure this out on her own.
> 
> Every woman with a career does not hate her kid. Not saying you think that; it's more a cautionary statement.


No, I don't think that so thank you for allowing me to clarify. My wife still has a career. Does she love it as much as she did her previous career? No. Does she still think changing her career to accommodate our family was worth it. YES! That's my concern with Mrs M. By her own words her current career is non traditional as far as schedule is concerned. She often has to work late for weeks at a time and that will apparently not change. So invariably she will not be there for her son much of the time as long as she keeps this career. Is that statement in dispute? I don't believe it can be disputed.

My concern is that she will continue to devote extra time to her career and her students at the expense of her family. She has done this already. Is that in dispute? Again, I don't think that can be disputed. The only thing that can in fact be disputed is whether she can resist the pull of her one true passion and devote as much available time to her family as she is able. You think she can and you obviously believe it will be enough to satisfy Matt and their son. I maintain that even if she is able to reject spending some of her extra time on her career, the demands of her career already are going to put a major strain on her family. Let's say she realistically need 40 hours per week for her to do an adequate job leaving her 30 hours of available time for her family. She won't want to do an adequate job, she will feel a responsibility to do an excellent job so she will take another 10 of those hours and put it toward her work responsibilites thereby taking that time away from her family. However, if she is truly passionate about work she will take more than 10 hours of available time and devote it to her work. This past year she spent 1 out of every 3 days away from her family. That averages to 10 days a month. If she reduces that to 8 days a month away from her family will that be ok? How about 7 days a month. That's one week out of every month away. Is that acceptable? See I don't think she can realistically be there enough and still continue doing what she is doing. Additionally, I think she is a creatively driven and passionate woman who slips all too easily into workaholic mode. And I don't think that will change.

I will once again state my favorite quote describing love. Love is commitment. Love is a choice. Love is one sacrifice voluntarily offered after another, for years on end. I have repeatedly called Mrs M out because I do not believe she has sacrificed anything in the shadow of her affair. Maybe that is clouding my judgment as you say. But I am dubious that she can continually sacrifice when it comes to her true passion....her career.


----------



## JCD

Passions can change.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Passions can change.


Re read her posts and tell me if you really believe that in her case.


----------



## MrMathias

It seems like a lot of the discussion in this thread is circular and unproductive. A few people have mentioned that they would like to hear my opinion on some things, as they relate to this thread, so I decided to do that. This is going to be really long and I'm sure despite my goal of helping clear things up it is going to get more murky. I beg of you, if you quote this, don't quote the entirety!!!  

MrsM and I met over seventeen years ago in a group setting while I was married with an almost 2yr old, through mutual friends. I wasn't looking at other women at all, and we both have admitted that at that point we handn't caught each other's eye. It wasn't until I was getting a D that my cousin thought I needed to get out and socialize, and he thought MrsM and I would get along well. I very clearly recall dropping by her dorm while I was on campus for a kendo meeting, for no other reason than to talk. I discovered that we had a lot of common interests, she was very nice, and smart as a whip. I can't say I was interested romantically but she says this is when she "knew she'd marry me some day." We became pretty close, she was one of a few people that I could talk to about the pain of betrayal and D, and we would watch movies snuggled up together. Someone cautioned her not to be a 'rebound girl' and for whatever reason, I never made a move. I wasn't ready. 

MrsM dated a friend of ours for a while, and I distanced myself, probably because at some level I know a single guy shouldn't be hanging around alone with a young woman in a relationship. In seventeen years that's probably the only time we weren't close friends- at least until the last year. It was at this time that MrsM transitioned from pre-med to Music- her parents cut her off, and she had a very rough time of that, but she knew she wanted to be involved in music or music theatre. It was very hard for her to break her plans, go against family, and pursue what she knew made her thrive. 

I can't say that her 'performance career' is what attracted me. She was a good friend and companion, she likes to read and has a high nerd/geek factor, she is smart and physically attractive. Her career, I don't think, matters to me much if at all. 

MrsM and I had a 'friends with benefits' phase, and I backed out of that after a couple months, and crushed her. She knew she was in love and she believed I was too and couldn't understand my actions. I never viewed her as a simple lay, she was always my friend as well and we did all kinds of things together, we were probably dating in all but words. I honestly can't say what I was thinking at that point; my father had a brush with death, hospitalized a month, and my exW was in the picture again, because I was considering trying to get back together to be with my son more. It was a long time ago, and I was about OM's age so I was maybe thinking with my ****, but I'd like to think better of myself. I could certainly have nailed MrsM all I wanted, but I felt like I had to let her off the hook, maybe to keep her feelings from getting hurt, I was afraid she was getting too attached or something. 

A few months later MrsM and I reconnected, and for me it was serious monogamy time. after some time I proposed, MrsM went away to grad school, and I remained behind a year. Long distance was rough but I have many very fond memories of our times together during that period. I moved down to Kansas to go to the same grad school. We got married. She waited two years there while I finished; that's when she got involved with the opera co. she still works for on a contract to contract basis. 

I think we spent a lot of time on 'ourselves'- she, on her job, me at the university working on art. We never lost sight of each other though. She was my best friend, lover, and crucial support when I was battling with my ex over visitation and decree modifications. She had nights away, but I am not one to sit alone at home, I've never been bored in my life unless I was sitting in the DMV without a book, I have too many hobbies and I will never get everything on my list done in my lifetime. I like time alone. 

Nine years ago I applied for a teaching position and got it. We very suddenly picked up everything and moved. I had a 'real' job, and she was moving with me to Hicksville, not once did I pick up any qualms or resentment from her. She had plans to work for her opera company from home, but it couldn't have possibly been fulfilling. It was a whirlwind- I found out I got the job, the next week we looked for a house, the week after I'm moved in and teaching. She has made very big sacrifices. A local suggested she could work at the Dollar Store!!! That was before anyone knew how adaptable and talented she is. MrsM has already written about her job changes. 

As two instructors, we spent lots of time apart, working at school, even on weekends. MrsM worked in recruiting and was out of town a lot- I never once thought she might be cheating or anything, complete trust. I have job related responsibilities that seem to grow every year, plus as an artist I have to spent time on art. You may have heard the phrase "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." I think any art teacher that isn't making art of their own isn't worth learning from, plus I want to do it. MrsM and I still never lost sight of each other; we would sailboat, go geo-caching, see plays, etc. I'd help her with scenic painting, we were involved. She would go to NYC and I wouldn't complain; I could focus on me during that time, paint lots of toy soldiers and landscape around or paint the house. I got stuff done!!! If I wanted to go on a week long photo trip for the school or Art Club, that was okay. I didn't feel like I was 'sacrificing'. 

Right before her pregnancy (the boy is now a month shy of three) things started disconnecting. MrsM seemed to be exhausted after school where she spent her energy. More time glued to TV, books, or at school. This is likely the time when I had an interest in a female student of mine; I never prodded her into anything but I imagined that she would be a great girlfriend if I were ten years younger. I kept boundaries up, never did anything that could be perceived as flirtatious, and worked it out on my own. I could have without a doubt spent exponentially more time around her- but I knew what devastation affairs bring. This former student even told me the other day that she drove by my house from time to time to see if I was home, but didn't stop, so I think there was a real opportunity for an affair if I'd been open to it. I often wonder if my unwanted feelings caused some distancing, from my side. I think I was probably more critical of MrsM's shortcomings. I eventually told MrsM about my unhappiness about our distance and her emphasis on work in an attempt to get things back on track with us. I wasn't considering a D or anything, I was lonely and missed my friend. 

Three-Four years ago MrsM also became more involved with her students at a higher level- more texting, more mothering, more digging them out of trouble. She had done that before but not with people that seemed to want to 'draw her in' to them, to make her a friend. OM was part of that crowd. At first he wasn't treated any differently, he was in a clique of her her advisees and performers. 

The arrival of a baby required both of us to step away from some responsibilities, but for the most part she went on doing what she had been- she could wear the baby in a sling, nap him in her office, and keep on doing her thing. I was pleased to see her get into motherhood the way she did. MrsM was awesome. 

But, it could have been that that first year was just another 'obsession' for her. More than one person said she shouldn't be a mother. I thought they had been proven wrong when she became one. 

This particular clique of students was involved in award winning productions that were doubtless quite impressive for a two year school in the middle of nowhere- on par with major four year colleges. This is when MrsM started her "Us vs. Them" thinking and she put me on the outside. It could be her supposedly unconscious attraction for OM was a factor in that- he eventually, and all too easily in my opinion, became her best friend. 

When the son got old enough that he couldn't be at work anymore, I took on more childrearing work. I was already doing a lot of household chores, but nothing to make me resentful. However, with a kid, I start losing 'my time'. I can't have art supplies out around a toddler, I can't focus, it's just not the same. I used to spread my hobbies around the house, work on things in the living room... there's no way that's happening with a crawler that is hardwired to taste everything they touch. MrsM and I talked about this but she didn't make any real changes, in fact she just kept on getting more deep in with her cult as their production went to a regional competition. It was a profound experience for her- the power of musical theatre to impact lives became her religion. I was apparently an infidel. 

My time started at 8:30 when the kid was put to bed. I told her I felt like my interests were perceived as 'hobby' whereas hers were time sensitive, multi person productions. More money is involved, its communal, its 'grand'. My interests (maybe even need, a drive to create I've had since early childhood) are introverted and seemingly not as important. We talked about this, probably before and during her EA. She would miss important things in my life because she was always doing something. The theatre students fed her ego, filled her emotional void, she was making them feel good and cared for, they were doing great things. 

I am not convinced her theatre passion is to 'blame', but she certainly is passionate about it. Her most passionate talk with me about OM was when she told me about her reliance on him, his sharing of her love of it, that it was important to him as it was to her. I could tell she was enthused, her words, speech, hand gestures were 'alive'. That conversation was fifteen minutes prior to the moment of Dday2. 

The only real arguments we've had, where she really got her back up, are related to musicals and theatre. 

She has always been obsessive when embarking on something new... she wanted a fish tank so we end up with a 60 gallon saltwater tank. Community theatre. She gets a sailboat, which was great fun for two years. Kid arrives and it becomes a pitiful water-collector that I get to take care of. I gave it away on Craigslist about a month ago. Babywearing. Waldorf dolls. Fvcking CJ. My concern is that if I decide to castrate myself and R yet again it will be another couple-month project for her. She will research and devote herself to us until it seems good, then she will be off again onto her next phase. 

We have always, since we started going out, had a lot of time apart to be individuals. That has been the case no matter her job, although in her case it was always job-related. It was never a point of contention or a problem until a child arrived, combined with her pouring herself into people outside of our marriage. 

What attracted me to MrsM: Intelligent, pretty, fun to be around, fun to talk to. Similar interests and background. I loved seeing her on stage, but that's not what hooked me. I may not be able to look at her on stage again, last time I did she was clearly in a deep connection with OM, and not just because they were paired up as romantic interests. 

*Known factors in the affair:* 
Instant attraction for OM, which she admits, but she has always said she had "no romantic thoughts about him until they had their encounter in the office". 
Terrible boundaries with students
Poor ethics both as an industry professional and instructor
Focus on success at work
Inability to recognize/admit her own feelings 
No close friends her age, feels awkward around other women
Emotional and physical distance from husband. *She stopped talking to me, and listening to me. *

*Personality issues:*
Low self esteem (bullied in school, parents that seem to link success and love) 
Competitive 
Romantic mindset (Soulmates, Peter Pan, True Love etc.)
Naive in regard to male motivations 
Not particularly introspective (at least from my point of view)

*Possible factors:*
Hormones (my naturopathic Dr. thinks this is a factor)
Biological drive to mate with other males
Mid life crisis
Seeming disdain for SAHM (comments about her classmates that stayed home, never did anything with their lives)
Worries about loss of youth
Worries about losing herself, losing her sense of being fun and silly
Strong questions about purpose in life... "What should I be doing? What is my purpose? Are my talents wasted here?" 

*My contributions:*
Taking on too much household responsibility (I'm 99.99% sure the statements about wives losing respect for a man when he switches roles too much are true). 

I made comments about things being 'easier when she wasn't around' because our boy would act worse. That meant 'not needed' in her mind, fairly so. There's no reason she couldn't have talked with me about what I've said that hurt her. 

Not being assertive enough. 

I'm really sure that one of my maladaptive behaviors is passive aggression. I need to look at this more closely. MrsM has missed a lot of my important events- solo exhibits, etc. I rarely missed any of hers, and they were a LOT more frequent. In the last year or two I didn't make much of an effort to go to her concerts and school musicals- I was either watching the kid or I tried to bring him and he was being a disturbance so I left early. I wasn't seen as supporting her, when CJ was. 

I have a group art show coming up, and I don't want her there and I've told her that. 

I think to some extent I am 'getting her back' for not being interested in me, by avoiding her events. I doubted she'd fvck another guy, student no less, and a fvcking loser par excellence because of that.

I think she could do other things in her life and excel at them. She didn't know she wanted to teach until she was somewhat forced into it. I do not feel threatened by her current profession. I'm not 'triggering' more with her gone right now- in fact it was harder on me having her here when she visited. 

I'm not convinced she has always been selfish; her actions in the past showed otherwise.

I don't think any guy could nail her. She knew she was 'connected' to OM from the day they met, and is either lying about her attraction or she can't admit it to herself. She allowed herself to be close to him, she opened every window, he shared her passion and her program, she wanted his attention. She closed me off, and trust me I've never been one of those guys that can't express themselves in a conversation with a woman. I'm willing. I think a deep part of her wanted OM, for a long, long time. I'm sorry, no one goes from zero 'romantic' attraction as she states to being eaten in her office chair in a few minutes. Soul mate level love right after that. She's either lying, or unbelievably out of touch and in denial about her feelings. 

I am stunned that she could be so selfish in this case, especially when the consequences are so self-destructive. I really do feel like I don't know her anymore. She has changed over the years. I know her mannerisms to a tee, I could tell her how she interacted with OM in many cases before she told me. But, _I don't know her. _ The person I thought I knew wouldn't have done this, and certainly not a FalseR.


----------



## SoulStorm

DrMathias said:


> It seems like a lot of the discussion in this thread is circular and unproductive. A few people have mentioned that they would like to hear my opinion on some things, as they relate to this thread, so I decided to do that. This is going to be really long and I'm sure despite my goal of helping clear things up it is going to get more murky. I beg of you, if you quote this, don't quote the entirety!!!
> 
> MrsM and I met over seventeen years ago in a group setting while I was married with an almost 2yr old, through mutual friends. I wasn't looking at other women at all, and we both have admitted that at that point we handn't caught each other's eye. It wasn't until I was getting a D that my cousin thought I needed to get out and socialize, and he thought MrsM and I would get along well. I very clearly recall dropping by her dorm while I was on campus for a kendo meeting, for no other reason than to talk. I discovered that we had a lot of common interests, she was very nice, and smart as a whip. I can't say I was interested romantically but she says this is when she "knew she'd marry me some day." We became pretty close, she was one of a few people that I could talk to about the pain of betrayal and D, and we would watch movies snuggled up together. Someone cautioned her not to be a 'rebound girl' and for whatever reason, I never made a move. I wasn't ready.
> 
> MrsM dated a friend of ours for a while, and I distanced myself, probably because at some level I know a single guy shouldn't be hanging around alone with a young woman in a relationship. In seventeen years that's probably the only time we weren't close friends- at least until the last year. It was at this time that MrsM transitioned from pre-med to Music- her parents cut her off, and she had a very rough time of that, but she knew she wanted to be involved in music or music theatre. It was very hard for her to break her plans, go against family, and pursue what she knew made her thrive.
> 
> I can't say that her 'performance career' is what attracted me. She was a good friend and companion, she likes to read and has a high nerd/geek factor, she is smart and physically attractive. Her career, I don't think, matters to me much if at all.
> 
> MrsM and I had a 'friends with benefits' phase, and I backed out of that after a couple months, and crushed her. She knew she was in love and she believed I was too and couldn't understand my actions. I never viewed her as a simple lay, she was always my friend as well and we did all kinds of things together, we were probably dating in all but words. I honestly can't say what I was thinking at that point; my father had a brush with death, hospitalized a month, and my exW was in the picture again, because I was considering trying to get back together to be with my son more. It was a long time ago, and I was about OM's age so I was maybe thinking with my ****, but I'd like to think better of myself. I could certainly have nailed MrsM all I wanted, but I felt like I had to let her off the hook, maybe to keep her feelings from getting hurt, I was afraid she was getting too attached or something.
> 
> A few months later MrsM and I reconnected, and for me it was serious monogamy time. after some time I proposed, MrsM went away to grad school, and I remained behind a year. Long distance was rough but I have many very fond memories of our times together during that period. I moved down to Kansas to go to the same grad school. We got married. She waited two years there while I finished; that's when she got involved with the opera co. she still works for on a contract to contract basis.
> 
> I think we spent a lot of time on 'ourselves'- she, on her job, me at the university working on art. We never lost sight of each other though. She was my best friend, lover, and crucial support when I was battling with my ex over visitation and decree modifications. She had nights away, but I am not one to sit alone at home, I've never been bored in my life unless I was sitting in the DMV without a book, I have too many hobbies and I will never get everything on my list done in my lifetime. I like time alone.
> 
> Nine years ago I applied for a teaching position and got it. We very suddenly picked up everything and moved. I had a 'real' job, and she was moving with me to Hicksville, not once did I pick up any qualms or resentment from her. She had plans to work for her opera company from home, but it couldn't have possibly been fulfilling. It was a whirlwind- I found out I got the job, the next week we looked for a house, the week after I'm moved in and teaching. She has made very big sacrifices. A local suggested she could work at the Dollar Store!!! That was before anyone knew how adaptable and talented she is. MrsM has already written about her job changes.
> 
> As two instructors, we spent lots of time apart, working at school, even on weekends. MrsM worked in recruiting and was out of town a lot- I never once thought she might be cheating or anything, complete trust. I have job related responsibilities that seem to grow every year, plus as an artist I have to spent time on art. You may have heard the phrase "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." I think any art teacher that isn't making art of their own isn't worth learning from, plus I want to do it. MrsM and I still never lost sight of each other; we would sailboat, go geo-caching, see plays, etc. I'd help her with scenic painting, we were involved. She would go to NYC and I wouldn't complain; I could focus on me during that time, paint lots of toy soldiers and landscape around or paint the house. I got stuff done!!! If I wanted to go on a week long photo trip for the school or Art Club, that was okay. I didn't feel like I was 'sacrificing'.
> 
> Right before her pregnancy (the boy is now a month shy of three) things started disconnecting. MrsM seemed to be exhausted after school where she spent her energy. More time glued to TV, books, or at school. This is likely the time when I had an interest in a female student of mine; I never prodded her into anything but I imagined that she would be a great girlfriend if I were ten years younger. I kept boundaries up, never did anything that could be perceived as flirtatious, and worked it out on my own. I could have without a doubt spent exponentially more time around her- but I knew what devastation affairs bring. This former student even told me the other day that she drove by my house from time to time to see if I was home, but didn't stop, so I think there was a real opportunity for an affair if I'd been open to it. I often wonder if my unwanted feelings caused some distancing, from my side. I think I was probably more critical of MrsM's shortcomings. I eventually told MrsM about my unhappiness about our distance and her emphasis on work in an attempt to get things back on track with us. I wasn't considering a D or anything, I was lonely and missed my friend.
> 
> Three-Four years ago MrsM also became more involved with her students at a higher level- more texting, more mothering, more digging them out of trouble. She had done that before but not with people that seemed to want to 'draw her in' to them, to make her a friend. OM was part of that crowd. At first he wasn't treated any differently, he was in a clique of her her advisees and performers.
> 
> The arrival of a baby required both of us to step away from some responsibilities, but for the most part she went on doing what she had been- she could wear the baby in a sling, nap him in her office, and keep on doing her thing. I was pleased to see her get into motherhood the way she did. MrsM was awesome.
> 
> But, it could have been that that first year was just another 'obsession' for her. More than one person said she shouldn't be a mother. I thought they had been proven wrong when she became one.
> 
> This particular clique of students was involved in award winning productions that were doubtless quite impressive for a two year school in the middle of nowhere- on par with major four year colleges. This is when MrsM started her "Us vs. Them" thinking and she put me on the outside. It could be her supposedly unconscious attraction for OM was a factor in that- he eventually, and all too easily in my opinion, became her best friend.
> 
> When the son got old enough that he couldn't be at work anymore, I took on more childrearing work. I was already doing a lot of household chores, but nothing to make me resentful. However, with a kid, I start losing 'my time'. I can't have art supplies out around a toddler, I can't focus, it's just not the same. I used to spread my hobbies around the house, work on things in the living room... there's no way that's happening with a crawler that is hardwired to taste everything they touch. MrsM and I talked about this but she didn't make any real changes, in fact she just kept on getting more deep in with her cult as their production went to a regional competition. It was a profound experience for her- the power of musical theatre to impact lives became her religion. I was apparently an infidel.
> 
> My time started at 8:30 when the kid was put to bed. I told her I felt like my interests were perceived as 'hobby' whereas hers were time sensitive, multi person productions. More money is involved, its communal, its 'grand'. My interests (maybe even need, a drive to create I've had since early childhood) are introverted and seemingly not as important. We talked about this, probably before and during her EA. She would miss important things in my life because she was always doing something. The theatre students fed her ego, filled her emotional void, she was making them feel good and cared for, they were doing great things.
> 
> I am not convinced her theatre passion is to 'blame', but she certainly is passionate about it. Her most passionate talk with me about OM was when she told me about her reliance on him, his sharing of her love of it, that it was important to him as it was to her. I could tell she was enthused, her words, speech, hand gestures were 'alive'. That conversation was fifteen minutes prior to the moment of Dday2.
> 
> The only real arguments we've had, where she really got her back up, are related to musicals and theatre.
> 
> She has always been obsessive when embarking on something new... she wanted a fish tank so we end up with a 60 gallon saltwater tank. Community theatre. She gets a sailboat, which was great fun for two years. Kid arrives and it becomes a pitiful water-collector that I get to take care of. I gave it away on Craigslist about a month ago. Babywearing. Waldorf dolls. Fvcking CJ. My concern is that if I decide to castrate myself and R yet again it will be another couple-month project for her. She will research and devote herself to us until it seems good, then she will be off again onto her next phase.
> 
> We have always, since we started going out, had a lot of time apart to be individuals. That has been the case no matter her job, although in her case it was always job-related. It was never a point of contention or a problem until a child arrived, combined with her pouring herself into people outside of our marriage.
> 
> What attracted me to MrsM: Intelligent, pretty, fun to be around, fun to talk to. Similar interests and background. I loved seeing her on stage, but that's not what hooked me. I may not be able to look at her on stage again, last time I did she was clearly in a deep connection with OM, and not just because they were paired up as romantic interests.
> 
> *Known factors in the affair:*
> Instant attraction for OM, which she admits, but she has always said she had "no romantic thoughts about him until they had their encounter in the office".
> Terrible boundaries with students
> Poor ethics both as an industry professional and instructor
> Focus on success at work
> Inability to recognize/admit her own feelings
> No close friends her age, feels awkward around other women
> Emotional and physical distance from husband. *She stopped talking to me, and listening to me. *
> 
> *Personality issues:*
> Low self esteem (bullied in school, parents that seem to link success and love)
> Competitive
> Romantic mindset (Soulmates, Peter Pan, True Love etc.)
> Naive in regard to male motivations
> Not particularly introspective (at least from my point of view)
> 
> *Possible factors:*
> Hormones (my naturopathic Dr. thinks this is a factor)
> Biological drive to mate with other males
> Mid life crisis
> Seeming disdain for SAHM (comments about her classmates that stayed home, never did anything with their lives)
> Worries about loss of youth
> Worries about losing herself, losing her sense of being fun and silly
> Strong questions about purpose in life... "What should I be doing? What is my purpose? Are my talents wasted here?"
> 
> *My contributions:*
> Taking on too much household responsibility (I'm 99.99% sure the statements about wives losing respect for a man when he switches roles too much are true).
> 
> I made comments about things being 'easier when she wasn't around' because our boy would act worse. That meant 'not needed' in her mind, fairly so. There's no reason she couldn't have talked with me about what I've said that hurt her.
> 
> Not being assertive enough.
> 
> I'm really sure that one of my maladaptive behaviors is passive aggression. I need to look at this more closely. MrsM has missed a lot of my important events- solo exhibits, etc. I rarely missed any of hers, and they were a LOT more frequent. In the last year or two I didn't make much of an effort to go to her concerts and school musicals- I was either watching the kid or I tried to bring him and he was being a disturbance so I left early. I wasn't seen as supporting her, when CJ was.
> 
> I have a group art show coming up, and I don't want her there and I've told her that.
> 
> I think to some extent I am 'getting her back' for not being interested in me, by avoiding her events. I doubted she'd fvck another guy, student no less, and a fvcking loser par excellence because of that.
> 
> I think she could do other things in her life and excel at them. She didn't know she wanted to teach until she was somewhat forced into it. I do not feel threatened by her current profession. I'm not 'triggering' more with her gone right now- in fact it was harder on me having her here when she visited.
> 
> I'm not convinced she has always been selfish; her actions in the past showed otherwise.
> 
> I don't think any guy could nail her. She knew she was 'connected' to OM from the day they met, and is either lying about her attraction or she can't admit it to herself. She allowed herself to be close to him, she opened every window, he shared her passion and her program, she wanted his attention. She closed me off, and trust me I've never been one of those guys that can't express themselves in a conversation with a woman. I'm willing. I think a deep part of her wanted OM, for a long, long time. I'm sorry, no one goes from zero 'romantic' attraction as she states to being eaten in her office chair in a few minutes. Soul mate level love right after that. She's either lying, or unbelievably out of touch and in denial about her feelings.
> 
> I am stunned that she could be so selfish in this case, especially when the consequences are so self-destructive. I really do feel like I don't know her anymore. She has changed over the years. I know her mannerisms to a tee, I could tell her how she interacted with OM in many cases before she told me. But, _I don't know her. _ The person I thought I knew wouldn't have done this, and certainly not a FalseR.


The ending of your post reminds me of this song by Mike and the Mechanics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfvHu_hgVuc


----------



## happyman64

DrM,

Great post and thanks for the history.

It is very clear how much you love Mrs. M.

And you are right. She became very selfish.

And though you do not who she is now, I really do not think she knows who she is right now.

I truly hope you heal. I ope she heals too. She has caused major harm to you, her family as well as to herself.

And of course she was into the OM. In fact, she pursued him. But I really think she does not understand why. And until she knows why, she cannot fix herself.

And until that happens you really cannot fix your marriage.

And it takes two to fix that if you decide, you want to R. 

Keep taking the time you need to make that decision. It is a big decision.

I do hope no matter what you decide that Mrs M focuses on what her priorities should be n her life.

You, family then her career. 

You all would be in a better place if her priorities were what is most important.

Focus on you and your son right now. The decision to R is yours. But it takes two.

And she has to fix her issues as well as truly show remorse to you for her horrible choices.

HM64


----------



## MrMathias

happyman64 said:


> And though you do not who she is now, I really do not think she knows who she is right now.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> And of course she was into the OM. In fact, she pursued him. But I really think she does not understand why. And until she knows why, she cannot fix herself.
> 
> And until that happens you really cannot fix your marriage.


I agree with this completely.


----------



## bfree

Doc,

I know you have said you don't really know her right now but I'm sure you've read my discussion with Wazza and JCD regarding Mrs M and her passion/obsession with her work. It seems that this started even before her pregnancy and has increased each year since. Do you in your heart think she could ever focus on you and your son, refrain from allowing her work to consume her and do it on a permanent basis?


----------



## happyman64

And I will say this Dr M.

Many on TAM are bashers. They bash the Waywards and they even bash the Reconcilers sometimes. Not everyone but too many.

You have seen Mrs M at her best and now at her worst.

Only you can judge her. None of us have that right but you.

But do not rush to judge her. 

Who knows, she just might prove worthy of your love again. She obviously thought you were the " one " once, make her remember who that guy was that fought for his first son, fought for his marriage so long ago.

I think you are going through it all again. Just a different woman and son this time.

Do not let her weakness and bad choices determine the outcome of your marriage. Fight for it!

2nd time around might be a charm......

Peace.

HM64


----------



## Wazza

Doc, there is so much to think about in your post.

Two questions for you to ponder.

First, if she is someone who achieves what she wants, and she wants reconciliation, why couldn't it succeed?

Second.....well if you do decide to reconcile, the scars are going to take years. Heck, my wife's affair was 1990 and today we are kind of a bit cool because she said something that reminded me of her affair behaviour and for some reason it got to me...doesn't appen often but still happens. So is she capable of sticking with it when twenty years from now she will still get reminders of her biggest fvck up?

And then just a suggestion for you, whichever way you go. Let goof the passive aggressive stuff. It doesn't work. Say what you want. That way at least she knows what is required of her. It isn't fair to her not to do this.


----------



## MrMathias

bfree said:


> Do you in your heart think she could ever focus on you and your son, refrain from allowing her work to consume her and do it on a permanent basis?


My heart, and my head, don't know the answer to this. She didn't do it before when I think I was pretty clear about my wants and needs. The first time I brought up her career and its affect on me was before OM arrived on the scene. Call me skeptical. 



Wazza said:


> Doc, there is so much to think about in your post.
> 
> Two questions for you to ponder.
> 
> First, if she is someone who achieves what she wants, and she wants reconciliation, why couldn't it succeed?


I'm sure it could, for a time. MrsM has said a lot of things to me, the problem is I feel like she believes them when she says them. Total conviction. When she said she wouldn't hurt me again, before she resumed the A, I think she meant it and believed it. I think she meant it when she said she wouldn't cheat on me. But she couldn't stop herself. 



Wazza said:


> So is she capable of sticking with it when twenty years from now she will still get reminders of her biggest fvck up?


No one knows the answer to this. 



Wazza said:


> And then just a suggestion for you, whichever way you go. Let goof the passive aggressive stuff. It doesn't work. Say what you want. That way at least she knows what is required of her. It isn't fair to her not to do this.


Agreed fully. I really wasn't aware I was being passive aggressive to the degree I think I was. I know its not healthy, clearly. I've been nothing but straightforward since Dday1. 

I'm not going to answer any more questions in this thread for the time being, it could get really awkward. In short, her career wasn't a problem for me until this group of students, magnified by the theatre instructor at the time. She knowingly withdrew from me and fostered a friendship with her OM. I think she could have had an affair in another job if the circumstances were right for it. If we stay together I wouldn't care if she stays in the theatre field, but I really hate my workplace now and want to get out. Her being away right now doesn't bother me. I needed some time apart from her. I don't think her acting background gives her any clear advantages, she's just a great liar like most other cheaters, they've got themselves convinced for one thing and the person they're lying to often want to believe them. She is not a bad mother, except when her OM had her attention, and she'd be glued to the iPad while her son and I played. I think most other cheating wives are taking time from their kids too. 

She wasn't much more absent, physically at least, during the A. Mentally, emotionally, yes she was gone. During FalseR she was Skyping him in little bits between classes, driving to him for booty calls between classes, and seeing him when I was away visiting family. I, and my son, didn't get any less time during that period since she wasn't connected to her devices as much. The quality of that time wasn't great though, I knew she was torn and probably thinking about OM. I couldn't get her to admit it.


----------



## BjornFree

DrMathias said:


> I'm sure it could, for a time. MrsM has said a lot of things to me, the problem is I feel like she believes them when she says them. Total conviction. When she said she wouldn't hurt me again, before she resumed the A, I think she meant it and believed it. I think she meant it when she said she wouldn't cheat on me. But she couldn't stop herself.


You should stop making excuses for her.


----------



## MrMathias

BjornFree said:


> You should stop making excuses for her.


How is that making excuses? It doesn't excuse anything. That MrsM says very important things and _in that moment_ appears to believe them is why I can't trust her and I'm filing for D. 

She says she's not ever talking to OM or her toxic students again, and right now, she might feel that way. I think she does. She might not feel that way in a month. I'm very reluctant to risk my future for someone that can't, or won't, strive to keep her word. Even worse, someone who doesn't remember what she has said to her husband if her panties are getting damp because another man is texting her the right things or touching her the right way. 

I'm getting tired of this... I'm not reading this thread any more.


----------



## BjornFree

DrMathias said:


> How is that making excuses? It doesn't excuse anything. That MrsM says very important things and _in that moment_ appears to believe them is why I can't trust her and I'm filing for D.
> 
> She says she's not ever talking to OM or her toxic students again, and right now, she might feel that way. I think she does. She might not feel that way in a month. I'm very reluctant to risk my future for someone that can't, or won't, strive to keep her word. Even worse, someone who doesn't remember what she has said to her husband if her panties are getting damp because another man is texting her the right things or touching her the right way.
> 
> I'm getting tired of this... I'm not reading this thread any more.


Dr, at this point in time , the only person you can trust is yourself. Don't worry about not being able to trust her right now. She hasn't done anything to inspire trust.

And I agree, take a break from this site. Maybe you and your kid can go someplace for a few days, have some fun.


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> Dr, at this point in time , the only person you can trust is yourself. Don't worry about not being able to trust her right now. She hasn't done anything to inspire trust.
> 
> And I agree, take a break from this site. Maybe you and your kid can go someplace for a few days, have some fun.


Too important to let go.

The moment, about 5 years after wife's affair, when I really fell in love with someone else, was the moment I began to get what my wife had to deal with...the moment when I could start to forgive her and reconcile.

Because I realised that while I couldn't trust her, I also couldn't trust myself.

Still hurts to admit that.


----------



## bfree

You know a lot of what Doc said about her believing "in the moment" rings true to me. Women generally act and react emotionally. Their base or default state is always emotional. That doesn't mean they can't be logical but clearly emotion is their foundational state. That is why they are such good nurturers. So they do things a lot based on how they are feeling. And feelings do not have memory. How you are feeling now is not how you will be feeling later or how you were feeling before. And whatever you felt before, once you no longer feel that way...its gone. I think this is why women are able to rewrite marital history so easily. "I don't love you now so therefore I don't think I ever loved you." Maybe Mrs M is more "feeling based" than most women and maybe that is why she reacts and acts more "in the moment."

And btw Doc, if you're still reading here. I can see and hear the pain that you're in. It's tangible even through this forum. I hurt for you.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> Because I realised that while I couldn't trust her, I also couldn't trust myself.
> 
> Still hurts to admit that.


You can trust yourself. You should also be aware of the fact that you can just as easily betray yourself and the values you hold dear . No shame in admitting that.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Too important to let go.
> 
> *The moment, about 5 years after wife's affair, when I really fell in love with someone else, was the moment I began to get what my wife had to deal with...the moment when I could start to forgive her and reconcile.*
> Because I realised that while I couldn't trust her, I also couldn't trust myself.
> 
> Still hurts to admit that.


You know Wazza, when I read that I immediately thought of rookie's story and how he moved on to date many other women after his D. He said he regained his confidence that he COULD move on and was not tied to his ex. In addition to gaining some insight into your wife do you think your attachment to another women in some way made you realize that you COULD move on as well and that gave you some reassurances that if R didn't happen you'd still be ok?


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> You know Wazza, when I read that I immediately thought of rookie's story and how he moved on to date many other women after his D. He said he regained his confidence that he COULD move on and was not tied to his ex. In addition to gaining some insight into your wife do you think your attachment to another women in some way made you realize that you COULD move on as well and that gave you some reassurances that if R didn't happen you'd still be ok?


No, because I didn't divorce or date. I just found myself with entirely inappropriate feelings and desires for a someone who worked for me. I had been hurting, and I was working closely with them, and we were talking a lot...and then I realised it was love. Like what Matt wrote about with the student except I never saw it coming. First I realised it, it was already there and painful. As he tells it, he handled it well. I didn't.

I couldn't not work with her. I'd like to say how morally wonderful I was, but the truth is if she had tried to bed me (as my wife's AP tried with her, and as CJ tried with MrsM) I don't know if I could have said no. She had feelings for me too....but she also had very strict morals.

I could handle that scenario better now, because I have learned about myself, but I could still be blindsided in future by a situation out of left field.

So, as I see it, totally different from Rookie's story, with the exception of the remorse both our wives demonstrated.

I look at my wife, and MrsM, and I think "there but for the grace of God go I".


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> You can trust yourself. You should also be aware of the fact that you can just as easily betray yourself and the values you hold dear . No shame in admitting that.


Well now, very gently please....if I am capable of betraying myself, how can I trust myself? Trust, by my definition, is to be able to rely on me to not betray, so the two statements are diametrically opposed. If I know I might betray me, I don't trust me.

Do you have a way to resolve that?


----------



## Acabado

I believe you have a clear understanding of what was going on and what could be the future.
Wishing you continued healing Dr.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> Well now, very gently please....if I am capable of betraying myself, how can I trust myself? Trust, by my definition, is to be able to rely on me to not betray, so the two statements are diametrically opposed. If I know I might betray me, I don't trust me.
> 
> Do you have a way to resolve that?


I don't even need to answer that. You can do it yourself. Have you in either an emotional or physical sense betrayed your wife ever since your EA? If not, why not?


----------



## Wazza

BjornFree said:


> I don't even need to answer that. You can do it yourself. Have you in either an emotional or physical sense betrayed your wife ever since your EA? If not, why not?


Was it an EA? Feelings on my part, but no acting on them. I don't know whether I crossed the line.

Why no issues since? Because my wife's and my experience taught me how to handle it. I handled it better than her, because I learned from her mistakes.

Wife had a history of being very moral and decent, and able to count on her self discipline. She was devastated when she found her limit in such a way.


----------



## BjornFree

Wazza said:


> Was it an EA? Feelings on my part, but no acting on them. I don't know whether I crossed the line.
> 
> Why no issues since? Because my wife's and my experience taught me how to handle it. I handled it better than her, because I learned from her mistakes.
> 
> Wife had a history of being very moral and decent, and able to count on her self discipline. She was devastated when she found her limit in such a way.


IMO, it was an EA, one sided perhaps. Well, I think you'll agree that it was more than a simple crush.

Exactly, you answered your own question. now both of you know that you're quite capable of betrayal. But you won't do it again because you see the clear demarcation where once the lines may have been blurred. That I believe is you trusting your own judgement.

I think anyone is capable of cheating even if they believe otherwise.


----------



## EI

BjornFree said:


> You should also be aware of the fact that you can just as easily betray yourself and the values you hold dear . No shame in admitting that.


I rarely agree with your posts. This is one that I can completely agree with and relate to.


----------



## BjornFree

EI said:


> I rarely agree with your posts. This is one that I can completely agree with and relate to.


I am well and truly blessed.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

DrMathias said:


> How is that making excuses? It doesn't excuse anything. That MrsM says very important things and _in that moment_ appears to believe them is why I can't trust her and I'm filing for D.
> 
> She says she's not ever talking to OM or her toxic students again, and right now, she might feel that way. I think she does. She might not feel that way in a month. I'm very reluctant to risk my future for someone that can't, or won't, strive to keep her word. Even worse, someone who doesn't remember what she has said to her husband if her panties are getting damp because another man is texting her the right things or touching her the right way.
> 
> I'm getting tired of this... I'm not reading this thread any more.


Alas, thats life, DrM, with yourself or with others, you have no guarantee of anything.

That we all like to live in an illusion of comforting thoughts about love and certainty, health and wealth, is simply 'la condition humaine'.

Enjoy that illusion when and where you can, but keep an eye open to reality now and then.

You are now in a long period of 'reality' and maybe long for the illusion, like we all do. 

If she wants to share the voyage with you, maybe you should give it a try. Not based on the old situation, but on a new proposal. Like travel companions on a journey, you have to learn to trust each other.

Don't forget we are all sinners, and we all need to be forgiven. If you do not forgive, or are not forgiven, then there is only the cold universe left for you.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Oh, I think I read she had a VAR on her all the time?

That reminds me of slavery, no ankle bars but an electronic neck bar....
I think this is inhuman.

I think you should accept you have to let her go, to see if she comes back to you out of her own.

If she does, she is yours, if she doesn't she was not yours anyway. 

Let her go free.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

The VAR was my choice as I currently have to be out of town for an extended trip. I am taking any and all measures possible to demonstrate transparency, and I don't mind one bit. DrM thinks it is ridiculous, but if there is the off chance he wants to know what was said or done, I want to be able to offer him something more tangible than my empty words right now, given the vast amount of lying and betrayal that I have done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> The VAR was my choice as I currently have to be out of town for an extended trip. I am taking any and all measures possible to demonstrate transparency, and I don't mind one bit. DrM thinks it is ridiculous, but if there is the off chance he wants to know what was said or done, I want to be able to offer him something more tangible than my empty words right now, given the vast amount of lying and betrayal that I have done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MrsM there's still hope and this is a step in the right direction IMO, even if DrM feels otherwise.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Today sucks. Everyday it feels like I am facing more and more stupid actions I took during the EA that I didn't even realize were sending the signals I sent to lead to the PA. It's so humiliating to look back on how I behaved and have to reevaluate everything I thought and did. I hate myself so much for doing this and I just can't really see a way through it today. I don't even know why I'm posting this here... How sh1tty I feel is a minuscule amount compared to what I put Matt through, but this is essentially my journal/brain clearinghouse right now, I guess. I fvcking hate myself so much everyday, that I can barely breathe. I just wish I had never done this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

The feeling will past. Be patient. Tomorrow will be another day.


----------



## Acabado

You need to have those realizations.
The only way out is through. No shortcuts anywhere.
Swim through the shame, rise above guilt, find remorse.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Today sucks. Everyday it feels like I am facing more and more stupid actions I took during the EA that I didn't even realize were sending the signals I sent to lead to the PA. It's so humiliating to look back on how I behaved and have to reevaluate everything I thought and did. I hate myself so much for doing this and I just can't really see a way through it today. I don't even know why I'm posting this here... How sh1tty I feel is a minuscule amount compared to what I put Matt through, but this is essentially my journal/brain clearinghouse right now, I guess. I fvcking hate myself so much everyday, that I can barely breathe. I just wish I had never done this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MrsM: I was once cheater and once cheatee. One bit of advice is not to treat your own suffering as nothing. Yes, it is not the same as your husband. His is worse, but what you are going through is awful too. I know, I went through it myself. But you have to give yourself a chance to come to terms with what happened, and self-hate isn't the way.

There were days when I thought I couldn't do it anymore. My wife had berated me so badly and so relentlessly that I was ready to throw in the towel, yet I didn't because I felt that that I was obligated to put up with her rantings because of how hurt she was. 

You can recognize your wrong and try to understand the reasons why without hating yourself. Maybe it's something to go through now, but in the end, it won't help either of you.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Sorry for my earlier rant... I was just emotional and I need to suck it up and focus on the positive like my therapist says. Back to working on being the better person I know I can be, and the family I desperately want to keep in my life.

*We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.*


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Today sucks. Everyday it feels like I am facing more and more stupid actions I took during the EA that I didn't even realize were sending the signals I sent to lead to the PA. It's so humiliating to look back on how I behaved and have to reevaluate everything I thought and did. I hate myself so much for doing this and I just can't really see a way through it today. I don't even know why I'm posting this here... How sh1tty I feel is a minuscule amount compared to what I put Matt through, but this is essentially my journal/brain clearinghouse right now, I guess. I fvcking hate myself so much everyday, that I can barely breathe. I just wish I had never done this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, my wife's affair was 1990 and still hurts for BOTH of us. So steel yourself because it will get worse as you work through things and will take a long time to be better.

Try and talk to each other about your feelings. One of the things that gave me some peace was when my wife started saying what she thought instead of being careful about her words. The truth just felt different...hard to explain but it helped me. From what Matt wrote, I worry that you will be choosing words designed to fix the problem. You really have to go deep and face your demons, not just lean on your normal coping mechanisms. Those normal mechanisms put you here.

You need to live with the fact that you did this. No one made you. Nothing CJ or others did absolves you from blame. Not saying this to beat you up, but because the sooner you start processing that fact the sooner you find whatever equilibrium you can.

Thinking of you guys as you go through this.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Sorry for my earlier rant... I was just emotional and I need to suck it up and focus on the positive like my therapist says. Back to working on being the better person I know I can be, and the family I desperately want to keep in my life.
> 
> *We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.*


Not a therapist, but if you don't deal with those emotions I just think there will be an issue down the track.

Feel free to vent here, that's what it is for.

I have a very good friend who knows all about the history and I can tell them anything about my relationship, so I can vent when it hurts. A shoulder to cry on. Do you have that?


----------



## ChangingMe

Wazza said:


> Not a therapist, but if you don't deal with those emotions I just think there will be an issue down the track.
> 
> Feel free to vent here, that's what it is for.


I am a therapist, and I agree. 

Though I'm also a wayward myself, so take that how you will. 


I do agree though that we come across different and more authentic when we say what we're feeling as opposed to thinking too much about it and trying to say what's 'right.' 

Personally, I never tried to mislead anyone on TAM, but in my early posts, I would type, then re-read, and then edit what I had written in order to try to say it better. And I got called out for being too detached. It wasn't my intent, and what I wrote was true, but once I started just writing what I felt and hitting 'submit,' I think my point came across better -even if it was more emotional and less 'perfect.' 

So post what you feel. It's hard being the WS. Not saying it's as hard as being the BS, but it is hard for us too. Some days are flat-out overwhelming. Let that emotion come through. It's hard, I know, because we struggle with the feeling of "I brought this on myself, so I don't deserve to complain about my feelings." And that's true to some extent, but there is a different between complaining and being honest that you are struggling with coming to terms with the pain you caused and the damage you have done to your husband and son.


----------



## Shaggy

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Sorry for my earlier rant... I was just emotional and I need to suck it up and focus on the positive like my therapist says. Back to working on being the better person I know I can be, and the family I desperately want to keep in my life.
> 
> *We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.*


Frankly, your earlier rant was the most positive thing I've ever read from you. The rest has all rang as being the "right" thing to say. The rant for once actually rang true.


----------



## jim123

Mrs. The rants are the best post as they reflect the true you. The inner person that needs to come out.

There is never true logic in these things. It is about emotions. You can not research your way out. It is only through feelings.

You are going to have to go back before the EA to find your answer. How did the OM become your best friend over you husband. How did the needs of students become greater than the needs of your family.

The only way you can find these is by letting these feeling or emotions out. When we get to know you, we can help you. When you get to know you, you can help yourself. Once Matt gets to know you, Matt can maybe forgive you. He can not R with someone he does not know.

The fact you are trying says alot about you. The fact you keep coming here says something about you as you continue to take a bashing.

This is not a test nor a program. Getting angry and emotional is good and brings you closer to your answers.

This can and has been done.


----------



## sandc

MrsM, 
That was the first post that did not look like damage control, everyone likes what you wrote. 

Art conveys emotion. Show us your raw, unretouched art.


----------



## cpacan

MrsM I don't write much these days, but I thought I would just say: loved your rant.


----------



## Doc Who

Sand - I agree. That is the first post from her that did not reek of "Look how remorseful and loving I am NOW towards Matt and my son...." It was also the first one that seemed (albeit just a bit) that the fantasy of CJ might be wearing off.

I will be honest - I do not see how Mathias can stay married to the OP and have a shred of self-respect. I am not sure she/he can ever deal with his perception *or just the fact* that she is not capable of a long-term commitment to him. She does what feels good in the moment. It is clear her students are more important than they should be, she seeks their approval, she clearly put lust ahead of her family, and the two tangible reasons she is now "all in" at the marriage game are that CJ dumped her and Matt is making her Plan B as he moves ahead.

But having said that, she CAN get healthy. She can learn from her mistakes. And she can become a better person and mother. Those are pretty damned good things. But she is going to have to have more pain in not changing than in REALLY changing (not just the over-the-top gestures she is currently lauding to Matt and TAM). The rant seems to indicate she might be reaching that pain threshold.

I believe there is a common saying in infidelity that goes "You cannot heal it unless you feel it." It rings true...

Strength and blessings Mrs Mathias in your journey to real healing.


----------



## sandc

I am actually hopeful they can work it out. However, I certainly understand DocM's position as well. There are marriage in R with WS's that have done far worse (in my opinion.)

It just saddens me to no end the degree to which perfectly lovely, nice, sweet people can hurt the one the love.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I guess I'm just someone who usually writes very logically. I have had many moments like the post above that I have emailed or talked directly to Matt about. This forum is not a place where I come for emotional outpouring, typically. More structured updates and sharing information/ideas. The concept of posting my emotional breakdowns here is somewhat repellant to me. That feels more fake for some reason because why would I spill my guts to you all like I just did? I know I did this last time because I am away from home and Matt was in class and I didn't want to dump that on him. I just let it out here instead and then immediately regretted it/felt awkward about it.

I don't know. My life details are all here but I hesitate to share my emotions with you all, I guess I'd rather keep that to between Matt and I. Thanks for your feedback. I think it's useful to remember for all of us that as open as these threads may feel, they only represent a small portion of our lives, interactions, and emotional experiences. Even when we try to be thorough with updates, things can't always include every detail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

Then make sure you are a raw and unguarded with him as you were in that one posting. Don't "structure" anything. Frankly he's the only one that counts anyway, right?


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I am a therapist, and I agree.
> 
> Though I'm also a wayward myself, so take that how you will.
> 
> 
> I do agree though that we come across different and more authentic when we say what we're feeling as opposed to thinking too much about it and trying to say what's 'right.'
> 
> Personally, I never tried to mislead anyone on TAM, but in my early posts, I would type, then re-read, and then edit what I had written in order to try to say it better. And I got called out for being too detached. It wasn't my intent, and what I wrote was true, but once I started just writing what I felt and hitting 'submit,' I think my point came across better -even if it was more emotional and less 'perfect.'
> 
> So post what you feel. It's hard being the WS. Not saying it's as hard as being the BS, but it is hard for us too. Some days are flat-out overwhelming. Let that emotion come through. It's hard, I know, because we struggle with the feeling of "I brought this on myself, so I don't deserve to complain about my feelings." And that's true to some extent, but there is a different between complaining and being honest that you are struggling with coming to terms with the pain you caused and the damage you have done to your husband and son.


I can understand feeling that way with your BS because you want to help with their pain but TAM is for all people to vent. This is a good place for you to get your feelings out in a safe way. Sometimes you get the best feedback when you're genuine and unihibited with your feelings.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I guess I'm just someone who usually writes very logically. I have had many moments like the post above that I have emailed or talked directly to Matt about. This forum is not a place where I come for emotional outpouring, typically. More structured updates and sharing information/ideas. The concept of posting my emotional breakdowns here is somewhat repellant to me. That feels more fake for some reason because why would I spill my guts to you all like I just did? I know I did this last time because I am away from home and Matt was in class and I didn't want to dump that on him. I just let it out here instead and then immediately regretted it/felt awkward about it.
> 
> I don't know. My life details are all here but I hesitate to share my emotions with you all, I guess I'd rather keep that to between Matt and I. Thanks for your feedback. I think it's useful to remember for all of us that as open as these threads may feel, they only represent a small portion of our lives, interactions, and emotional experiences. Even when we try to be thorough with updates, things can't always include every detail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to decide what helps you. You are a person in pain, not a freak show.

But there is a lot of experience and many ideas here. The more you open up the more we can help.

I honestly think you need someone other than Matt, and he someone other than you, to lean on through this. There is too much pain and mistrust for you to totally support each other right now. It takes time to get that back.

And don't try and logic yourself out of this. You have a good. Head, but your heart and hormones took over and put you here. Your head didn't get a say.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> You have to decide what helps you. You are a person in pain, not a freak show.
> 
> But there is a lot of experience and many ideas here. The more you open up the more we can help.
> 
> I honestly think you need someone other than Matt, and he someone other than you, to lean on through this. There is too much pain and mistrust for you to totally support each other right now. It takes time to get that back.
> 
> And don't try and logic yourself out of this. You have a good. Head, but your heart and hormones took over and put you here. Your head didn't get a say.


I tend to take you to task a lot Mrs M but Wazza is right. You do need an outlet other than Matt. Think of it this way. The more you purge the negative thoughts and emotions from your system the quicker the positive thoughts and emotions will take their place.


----------



## loveisforever

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Today sucks. Everyday it feels like I am facing more and more stupid actions I took during the EA that I didn't even realize were sending the signals I sent to lead to the PA. It's so humiliating to look back on how I behaved and have to reevaluate everything I thought and did. I hate myself so much for doing this and I just can't really see a way through it today. I don't even know why I'm posting this here... How sh1tty I feel is a minuscule amount compared to what I put Matt through, but this is essentially my journal/brain clearinghouse right now, I guess. I fvcking hate myself so much everyday, that I can barely breathe. I just wish I had never done this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems like you are reevaluating your past actions and treating them as trash, as something not done by "true" you. So you now sees how you cheat your H, yourself, even the OM as you were not "truly" love him. 

I do not think to deny yourself will get you anywhere. You need to own your past actions.

It was actually OK for you to fell for OM, if you could honestly inform your H. It is OK for you to fall back again for your H, just admitted that you had changed your heart. It is not OK to rewrite history, to get it both ways, to do cake eating, and to lie. 

It is your lies that matters the most. You lie to yourself, too.

If you truly want to go back in your memory, try to figure out why you lost love of your H, why you shift your loyalty to OM, why are you now want to shift back to your H, why you shift back and forth and try to justify these by lies, why you are so emotional back and forth and do not have a long lasting relationship? Do not hate yourself. You seems like have a personality disorder and you need help to pull yourself out if this can be accomplished. 

If you just desperately try things to get your H back, your are manipulative and may well lie to yourself. Focus on yourself to be a healthy person, not your goals to get someone else back.


----------



## JCD

Good luck. Remember the only person you need to please, the only person whose feelings count is Dr. M.

Vent or write logically. What our opinions are doesn't matter in the long run. Now if you want advice or a place to rant, that's fine too. Many people find that helpful but at the end of the day, it's all about you and Matt.

You need to lance the wound to get the poison out. I'm glad to hear that you are doing it with each other.

One ground rule my wife and I used was that either could stop talking about X if they were getting too emotional or hurt...but we would get back to that topic later so it didn't fester.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Doc Who

Mrs M

As you face your demons, you need to take some intentional time to figure out WHY you want to be married to Matt. I know you "love" him. But that is clearly not enough for you to engage him in a way he needs. You still write about giving time to Matt and your son takes away from your students (to their detriment). You clearly wanted CJ more than anything in the world. These are facts that Matt is faces in his wondering why you believe your wrecked marriage is worth any future effort. 

This is not meant to be an attack. It is meant to be real. Wouldn't you be happier in the long term if you could spend more time with your students? Happier if you could spend more time in a carefree lifestyle where you could engage in physical activities with young men? You could still be a mother and co-parent with Matt. You know Matt will be a great and caring dad to your son. A divorce would free you to pursue things that might be of more value to you than a relationship with Matt.

I know you feel rejected now. You were rejected by CJ (or at least realize that he never cared for you the way you deeply wanted him) and now rejected by the man you thought would always be there. While the natural instinct is to fight back against the rejection, it is not a reason to cling to something that is really not in your best interests. And just FYI - that is the same advice I give to the betrayed.

Either way, you must do what is best for you, because if you are “all in” the marriage because of rejection, you WILL lose that feeling as you lost the feeling and commitment before. And then what happens if Matt offers R and you decide you would be happier with your students again? Matt does not deserve yet another heartbreak brought on by you.

I realize your instinct will be to fight back. You will tell yourself you will never do this to Matt again. You will never endanger your son’s family again. That is all well and good to tell yourself that, but WHY? What story are you telling yourself to convince yourself that you will indeed again never stray? Because if it is just not to hurt others, then that is doomed to failure. Because you know Matt and your son will never be enough to stop you from doing what you really want…

You will need to face the question. You will need to be authentic, especially with yourself.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Doc Who said:


> Mrs M
> 
> As you face your demons, you need to take some intentional time to figure out WHY you want to be married to Matt. I know you "love" him. But that is clearly not enough for you to engage him in a way he needs. You still write about giving time to Matt and your son takes away from your students (to their detriment). You clearly wanted CJ more than anything in the world. These are facts that Matt is faces in his wondering why you believe your wrecked marriage is worth any future effort.
> 
> This is not meant to be an attack. It is meant to be real. Wouldn't you be happier in the long term if you could spend more time with your students? Happier if you could spend more time in a carefree lifestyle where you could engage in physical activities with young men? You could still be a mother and co-parent with Matt. You know Matt will be a great and caring dad to your son. A divorce would free you to pursue things that might be of more value to you than a relationship with Matt.
> 
> I know you feel rejected now. You were rejected by CJ (or at least realize that he never cared for you the way you deeply wanted him) and now rejected by the man you thought would always be there. While the natural instinct is to fight back against the rejection, it is not a reason to cling to something that is really not in your best interests. And just FYI - that is the same advice I give to the betrayed.
> 
> Either way, you must do what is best for you, because if you are “all in” the marriage because of rejection, you WILL lose that feeling as you lost the feeling and commitment before. And then what happens if Matt offers R and you decide you would be happier with your students again? Matt does not deserve yet another heartbreak brought on by you.
> 
> I realize your instinct will be to fight back. You will tell yourself you will never do this to Matt again. You will never endanger your son’s family again. That is all well and good to tell yourself that, but WHY? What story are you telling yourself to convince yourself that you will indeed again never stray? Because if it is just not to hurt others, then that is doomed to failure. Because you know Matt and your son will never be enough to stop you from doing what you really want…
> 
> You will need to face the question. You will need to be authentic, especially with yourself.


The answer to that is relatively clear, at least from my perspective right now. Matt and I spent YEARS as best friends. More than someone I loved and cared about, we were essential in each other's lives. I allowed space to grow between us for a variety of reasons: I took him for granted, I was hyper focused on my work, I have esteem issues that I was attempting to fill through outside validation, and I was projecting my own negative self-image onto him.

I've thought a lot about things, and I know Matt made an important point in a earlier post on my thread. To a large extent, my brain equals success with love. Success for me prior to the ending of my affair was always measured by work/school accomplishments. So when we started to grow apart, I worked harder at my job(s) because that's how/why I thought I earned people's (parents/Matt/etc.) love. 

I know now, almost 9 weeks after establishing NC with OM, that his friendship was the most valuable thing to me about that relationship, and because he was invested in my work success at a time when Matt was not demonstrating that as much, I equated that with love. Matt has ALWAYS loved me and tried to communicate what he wanted and felt. But my measuring system was fvcked up. Instead of giving him quiet time together at home, and sharing simple things, I drove myself to accomplish everything possible, to prove my value to him. Even now, when I speak about my students not being as successful due to me spending less additional time with them, the root fear of that is that I will be a disappointment to those I love and want to love me back.

Even on our bad days right now, there is no one I'd rather talk to than Matt. That hadn't been true for awhile. All my value systems and measurements of myself as a person have been totally burned down to nothing. I wouldn't be happier spending more time with my students because it was always a way to earn Matt's and my parents' love and respect. Those are completely gone since the affair. I have definitely NEVER wanted to pursue a carefree lifestyle where I could engage in physical activities with young men. My affair was awful and sordid, but I don't nor have I ever had a track record of chasing after boys. It was a by-product of all the factors mentioned above.

I know I will never cheat again. Not because I love Matt and my son, because clearly that wasn't enough, even though I did love them in May and continuing through the affair. But because I know myself so much more than before and continue to learn more every day - my flaws, weaknesses, and thought-processes that allowed me to travel this path, even though it is repugnant to me if I view it as an outsider. The pain and destruction that Matt and I are living through on a daily basis was unfathomable to me. The slippery-slope from friendship to EA to PA was nothing that I'd witnessed or had any understanding of. Knowledge is power, I honestly believe that.

I am knowing myself more, and working to know Matt more. I want to save our wrecked marriage because I know there is no one else with the capacity to understand each other as well as Matt and I can moving forward. We had a strong friendship and partnership for years. We have similar childhoods and shared lives from growing up. We have continued (even as we were growing apart) to share a love for similar types of new experiences. We fit each other well, and could always talk, but I pulled that away from us. We have been together long enough for me to confidently know that our paths will run close for the rest of our lives. This was never really about incompatible lifestyles. More that my emotional issues /fulfillment methods caused an incompatibility. Matt feels like I am a stranger now, because he can't connect his image of who I was with the actions I took. But I don't think I am a stranger to him. He's made some incredibly astute points about my weaknesses. I don't feel like a stranger when we are spending time together and talking more like we used to. Matt has to decide if he can live with someone with my flaws. In my view, I think the weaknesses I've discovered desperately need to be addressed and CAN be addressed in more healthy ways. I'd just never had them manifest in such a detrimental manner before.  I am not someone who doesn't want to change or doesn't recognize the essential need for change at this point in my life. I expect my small traits to remain similar - enjoyment of music, interest in work, desire to travel and have new experiences. But what is fundamentally changing is how I let those things and others impact my self-image and my actions.

I am not afraid of divorce for myself. I can survive it. I have other job opportunities, people who have demonstrated a lot of care for me over the last 9 weeks, and a much better understanding of what I need to have a happy life. I know both Matt and I would be "ok". But I know we have a much greater chance of feeling fulfilled and happy if we can come through this together. We both value our son and want a two-parent home for him. We both want a relationship with someone who is a friend and lover, someone with a genuine interest in us as people. We want someone to be open, honest, and vulnerable with. No one will ever truly understand me as Matt does, and I believe the opposite is true as well. We can share our histories with new people, but there is too much there between us to ever be matched by a new relationship. Serendipitous things from our childhoods, shared discoveries as young adults, and deep growth at this stage in our lives. I want to build a new marriage with Matt, with a better understanding of how we each need to love and be loved in return. Falling in love as teenagers is easy. No one knows themselves and how their needs will manifest in 20 years. We coasted on easy for far too long and it left voids in both of us. But NO ONE can fill those voids in the same way that we can for each other. I have learned that in the most painful way possible for both of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'm hopeful for you two. I just hope you can get home in time. The longer you're apart the more he'll detach and that spells disaster.


----------



## BjornFree

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm hopeful for you two. I just hope you can get home in time. The longer you're apart the more he'll detach and that spells disaster.


Yeah he's kind of already detaching from her.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> To a large extent, my brain equals success with love. Success for me prior to the ending of my affair was always measured by work/school accomplishments. So when we started to grow apart, I worked harder at my job(s) because that's how/why I thought I earned people's (parents/Matt/etc.) love.


Mrs M,

I know whenever you see a post from me in your thread you probably cringe. But hopefully this won't be one of those posts. I'm trying to understand the above statement but I can't seem to fully grasp the meaning. You say that the further you and Matt drifted the more and more you focused on your work. But Matt states that he plainly told you that it was your work that was in fact causing you both to drift apart. He saw it coming. Maybe not the affair but he saw the storm on the horizon and focused your attention on it. Can you explain how to reconcile this quandry? How could you possibly think in any way shape or form that doing more of the thing that was causing problems would draw Matt closer to you? I simply do not understand this at all.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I think it's one of those things that you can hear but not understand/implement if you have been wired a different way. Like the different love languages for example. Matt may want me to hang a curtain that's been undone for a while as his Christmas present. But I can't believe that would really be what he wants as a present because that's doesn't feel like a gift to me. Same thing here. Matt wants more time from me, but I don't feel that I have any value in that circumstance. I'm not trying to deliberately defy him, but my subconscious tells me that can't be what he REALLY wants because I'm worthless like that. It's not measurable success. Idk, it's probably really hard to verbalize well, and it's definitely messed up. Why don't I trust what Matt says he wants and needs over my own perceptions of value? But we know now that people speak different love languages for years without being aware their partner doesn't get or want that. So I think it's kind of similar. Does that make any sense at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think it's one of those things that you can hear but not understand/implement if you have been wired a different way. Like the different love languages for example. Matt may want me to hang a curtain that's been undone for a while as his Christmas present. But I can't believe that would really be what he wants as a present because that's doesn't feel like a gift to me. Same thing here. Matt wants more time from me, but I don't feel that I have any value in that circumstance. I'm not trying to deliberately defy him, but my subconscious tells me that can't be what he REALLY wants because I'm worthless like that. It's not measurable success. Idk, it's probably really hard to verbalize well, and it's definitely messed up. Why don't I trust what Matt says he wants and needs over my own perceptions of value? But we know now that people speak different love languages for years without being aware their partner doesn't get or want that. So I think it's kind of similar. Does that make any sense at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It still doesn't really make sense to me because I would think that as good as you say you both communicated this should have been pretty basic for you both. I've read the 5 Love Languages with my wife and yes we both have different ways of expressing our love and care for one another. But although her way is not my way I understand what her way is and I listen to her needs. To be honest this leads me back to one of my major points, that you validate yourself through work accomplishments and I'm not sure that is alterable. It seems to be a core part of your personality and I'm truly dubious whether you can change that way of thinking. What you describe is a trait that most "driven" people have and its fully ingrained in their being. Have you discusses all of this with Matt and what was his reaction?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

We discussed this a bit the other night on the phone, but not to the level of clarity that I expressed it here. I've been thinking about it constantly since our initial conversation, and had a lot more realizations since then. I need to spend some real time on that in therapy. I am driven. Absolutely. But I NEED to learn to dial that back, to give myself permission to be satisfied with myself as us and understand that it is ok for me to choose to relax and prioritize "soft" goals over measurae achievements. I know I will be happier in the long run if I can accomplish this. It won't be easy at all. I will have to fight many years of habits, expectations, and ideas. But I don't WANT to be that person anymore. I don't like who I am and how I judge myself. So I have to try something new. Better understanding this does really help me assess my motivations in any given situation, and helps me hear more clearly what Matt is asking for. It may be too late, and I hate that more than anything, but for myself and my son, I've got to break this habit. I DON'T want it to be passed on to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think it's one of those things that you can hear but not understand/implement if you have been wired a different way. Like the different love languages for example. Matt may want me to hang a curtain that's been undone for a while as his Christmas present. But I can't believe that would really be what he wants as a present because that's doesn't feel like a gift to me. Same thing here. Matt wants more time from me, but I don't feel that I have any value in that circumstance. I'm not trying to deliberately defy him, but my subconscious tells me that can't be what he REALLY wants because I'm worthless like that. It's not measurable success. Idk, it's probably really hard to verbalize well, and it's definitely messed up. Why don't I trust what Matt says he wants and needs over my own perceptions of value? But we know now that people speak different love languages for years without being aware their partner doesn't get or want that. So I think it's kind of similar. Does that make any sense at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One thing you must realize that it is not up to you to decide what he deems worthy.
That's a parent/child dynamic.
You have to trust that what he says he wants is what he wants.
Otherwise you will be making him speak your love language and not his own.

You have to learn to let go of control..you may not believe this, but you display control when you decide for someone what is best for them even though they have told you what they want.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

SoulStorm said:


> One thing you must realize that it is not up to you to decide what he deems worthy.
> That's a parent/child dynamic.
> You have to trust that what he says he wants is what he wants.
> Otherwise you will be making him speak your love language and not his own.
> 
> You have to learn to let go of control..you may not believe this, but you display control when you decide for someone what is best for them even though they have told you what they want.


You are exactly correct. Control issues are definitely a piece of this puzzle. And finding that trust in what he says and not trying to "read into" things or ascribe some other emotion/thought is something else that I'm really working on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think it's one of those things that you can hear but not understand/implement if you have been wired a different way. Like the different love languages for example. Matt may want me to hang a curtain that's been undone for a while as his Christmas present. But I can't believe that would really be what he wants as a present because that's doesn't feel like a gift to me. Same thing here. Matt wants more time from me, but I don't feel that I have any value in that circumstance. I'm not trying to deliberately defy him, but my subconscious tells me that can't be what he REALLY wants because I'm worthless like that. It's not measurable success. Idk, it's probably really hard to verbalize well, and it's definitely messed up. Why don't I trust what Matt says he wants and needs over my own perceptions of value? But we know now that people speak different love languages for years without being aware their partner doesn't get or want that. So I think it's kind of similar. Does that make any sense at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought you had done a lot of reading. Haven't you read 5 Love Languages yet? It's not your JOB to question whatever he says is how he receives love (hanging the curtain, time); it's to DO it because he asked for it. NOT doing it is just putting yourself ahead of him, as in 'I know better.' Bullchit. You're being selfish and self-centered, to say that what he asks for is not 'enough.' It's not enough for YOU, because those aren't YOUR love languages. IF you truly love someone, you are HAPPY to give them love any way they want to receive it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

turnera said:


> I thought you had done a lot of reading. Haven't you read 5 Love Languages yet? It's not your JOB to question whatever he says is how he receives love (hanging the curtain, time); it's to DO it because he asked for it. NOT doing it is just putting yourself ahead of him, as in 'I know better.' Bullchit. You're being selfish and self-centered, to say that what he asks for is not 'enough.' It's not enough for YOU, because those aren't YOUR love languages. IF you truly love someone, you are HAPPY to give them love any way they want to receive it.


I have read it since D-Days 2/3. I am NOT behaving that way now. I was discussing my thoughts and habits pre and during the affair. The curtain example was from years ago, as Matt and I work on understanding our emotional needs and love languages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Ah, that makes sense.


----------



## bfree

I hope you really are able to dial back your need to achieve. And I'm also guilty of not understanding what Matt wants. He said he wanted this time away from you too evaluate his feelings and I assumed he wasn't sure what he really wanted. But he was correct. He has use this time to evaluate how he feels and he has not triggered like I thought he would. Unfortunately that also means that he's probably quite detached at this point. Btw, is the conversation you had with Matt where you discussed this need to achieve the one where he hung up on you after getting angry?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

No, that conversation was the evening before he hung up last night. I thought it was actually a really good conversation and felt like we shared a lot. Last night's conversation, honestly, I'm not sure why that went awry, other than Matt felt like I had betrayed him again by sharing details of what we've been going through with friends in December. One of them is very close to me, and she had told the other what was going on, so I talked openly in front of both of them. I'm trying to really own up to what I did and be honest in all my conversations, but Matt was upset that I had shared that personal conversation and I can understand why in retrospect. I'm still working on finding a balance on what to communicate to whom. I sort if feel today like I shouldn't talk to anyone but my therapist and Matt, but I also know that's not healthy. So I just need to think before I speak more. My friend was in town for the night only, I didn't know when I'd see her again (she moves to LA tomorrow) and I just spilled my guts. It's no excuse. I hate that I still fvck up and cause Matt more pain and anger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

SoulStorm said:


> One thing you must realize that it is not up to you to decide what he deems worthy.
> That's a parent/child dynamic.
> You have to trust that what he says he wants is what he wants.
> Otherwise you will be making him speak your love language and not his own.
> 
> You have to learn to let go of control..you may not believe this, but you display control when you decide for someone what is best for them even though they have told you what they want.


I've been following this thread.
This particular conversation struck a real nerve with me. For years my STBXH would ignore and totally disregard my desires and wishes. Whenever I mentioned it, I was criticized for not appreciating the wisdom of his decision. This drove me right up the wall and definitely contributed to feeligs of resentment and devaluation. I never really identified it as a control issue before, but it makes so much sense. I just thought he was an insensitive bast**d.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> No, that conversation was the evening before he hung up last night. I thought it was actually a really good conversation and felt like we shared a lot. Last night's conversation, honestly, I'm not sure why that went awry, other than Matt felt like I had betrayed him again by sharing details of what we've been going through with friends in December. One of them is very close to me, and she had told the other what was going on, so I talked openly in front of both of them. I'm trying to really own up to what I did and be honest in all my conversations, but Matt was upset that I had shared that personal conversation and I can understand why in retrospect. I'm still working on finding a balance on what to communicate to whom. I sort if feel today like I shouldn't talk to anyone but my therapist and Matt, but I also know that's not healthy. So I just need to think before I speak more. My friend was in town for the night only, I didn't know when I'd see her again (she moves to LA tomorrow) and I just spilled my guts. It's no excuse. I hate that I still fvck up and cause Matt more pain and anger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Matt is going to be hyper sensitive right now as I'm sure you already know. The best thing you can do at this point is to just try to minimize the amount of frustration and anger that he experiences and do the best you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Things look bad over on Matt's thread. Just checking in that you are ok.


----------



## snap

She has been warned on the possible outcome of her trip, she took it over fighting for her marriage anyway. I'm certain she is OK.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> No, that conversation was the evening before he hung up last night. I thought it was actually a really good conversation and felt like we shared a lot. Last night's conversation, honestly, I'm not sure why that went awry, other than Matt felt like I had betrayed him again by sharing details of what we've been going through with friends in December. One of them is very close to me, and she had told the other what was going on, so I talked openly in front of both of them. I'm trying to really own up to what I did and be honest in all my conversations, but Matt was upset that I had shared that personal conversation and I can understand why in retrospect. I'm still working on finding a balance on what to communicate to whom. I sort if feel today like I shouldn't talk to anyone but my therapist and Matt, but I also know that's not healthy. So I just need to think before I speak more. My friend was in town for the night only, I didn't know when I'd see her again (she moves to LA tomorrow) and I just spilled my guts. It's no excuse. I hate that I still fvck up and cause Matt more pain and anger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know exactly what you feel. There are times I vent to my friends and my wife goes simply ballistic! She is a very private person and doesn't want her name bandied around.

But she obviously doesn't mind when I vent to her about them of course.

So I have had to learn to moderate my conversations. I'm sure that I'll have athlete's foot on my tongue again though...


----------



## JCD

snap said:


> She has been warned on the possible outcome of her trip, she took it over fighting for her marriage anyway. I'm certain she is OK.


Um...she was a bag of nerves according to her posts. According to both Matt and her, they thought it was for the best.

If she goes, she is disregarding the importance of her marriage.

If she stays, she is going against the express wishes of her husband.

So...where is the winning scenario for her?


----------



## NewM

snap said:


> She has been warned on the possible outcome of her trip, she took it over fighting for her marriage anyway. I'm certain she is OK.


She took it because she signed a contract to do it and if she decided not to go her and Matt would take a big financial loss.


----------



## The Middleman

NewM said:


> She took it because she signed a contract to do it and if she decided not to go her and Matt would take a big financial loss.


If repairing the marriage was that important to her, she could have negotiated an exit, help find a replacement or even take the financial hit. People are ducking out of these types of commitments all the time in Show Biz and regular business and people don't go suing each-other unless they start getting stupid attitudes. She should have and could have stayed home. Sacrifice is a part of marriage and she's just not into that.


----------



## NewM

The Middleman said:


> If repairing the marriage was that important to her, she could have negotiated an exit, help find a replacement or even take the financial hit. People are ducking out of these types of commitments all the time in Show Biz and regular business and people don't go suing each-other unless they start getting stupid attitudes. She should have and could have stayed home. Sacrifice is a part of marriage and she's just not into that.


I red in Matt's thread or here that they would take big hit if she backed out because there was nobody to replace her and he told her to go.


----------



## The Middleman

NewM said:


> I red in Matt's thread or here that they would take big hit if she backed out because there was nobody to replace her and he told her to go.


I read that too. But as someone who deals with contracts and commitments every day for a living (VP of Finance for a $5 Billion company), you can always negotiate something. My guess is that given what they had going on in there lives, Matt didn't get to put a lot of thought into it, but she should have pulled out all the stops to get out of it. So I'm not taking the "I couldn't get out of it" at face value.


----------



## happyman64

DR M. also thought the time apart could be good for him!

You are beating a dead horse........


----------



## WorkingOnMe

happyman64 said:


> DR M. also thought the time apart could be good for him!
> 
> You are beating a dead horse........


He thought that but he was wrong. They were also warned. This whole detachment that is happening was not only very predictable, it was predicted and expressed.


----------



## warlock07

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am not afraid of divorce for myself. I can survive it. I have other job opportunities, people who have demonstrated a lot of care for me over the last 9 weeks, and a much better understanding of what I need to have a happy life. I know both Matt and I would be "ok".


R is hard work. You decided to R before you knew what it meant. Great yuo have the clarity now.



> *But I know we have a much greater chance of feeling fulfilled and happy if we can come through this together. We both value our son and want a two-parent home for him. We both want a relationship with someone who is a friend and lover, someone with a genuine interest in us as people. We want someone to be open, honest, and vulnerable with. No one will ever truly understand me as Matt does, and I believe the opposite is true as well. We can share our histories with new people, but there is too much there between us to ever be matched by a new relationship. Serendipitous things from our childhoods, shared discoveries as young adults, and deep growth at this stage in our lives. I want to build a new marriage with Matt, with a better understanding of how we each need to love and be loved in return. Falling in love as teenagers is easy. No one knows themselves and how their needs will manifest in 20 years. We coasted on easy for far too long and it left voids in both of us. But NO ONE can fill those voids in the same way that we can for each other. I have learned that in the most painful way possible for both of us.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


not sure what to say about this..


----------



## Wazza

WorkingOnMe said:


> He thought that but he was wrong. They were also warned. This whole detachment that is happening was not only very predictable, it was predicted and expressed.


Not a given that that is what has happened and absolutely not "very predictable" as a certainty. 

I will bet absolutely every betrayed spouse who went on to reconcile has said things like Matt's last few posts. I sure did. It is part of the process. I don't know whether they will divorce or reconcile. But it's not over yet.

In any case the argument was had before and what is done is done.


----------



## snap

JCD said:


> Um...she was a bag of nerves according to her posts. According to both Matt and her, they thought it was for the best.
> 
> If she goes, she is disregarding the importance of her marriage.
> 
> If she stays, she is going against the express wishes of her husband.
> 
> So...where is the winning scenario for her?


There is no winning scenario here, only bad odds vs better chances.

From what I read Matt's attitude was more towards not giving a damn, a huge red flag as to the future of the R. He is in the anger stage, he's not the one to beg her staying.

There is always a choice. Skipping a gig is in no way near as landmark in one's life as disintegration of family. A matter of priorities.

Anyway, it was getting kinda theatrical and am just ain't into drama. My point was she'll be OK.


----------



## jim123

warlock07 said:


> R is hard work. You decided to R before you knew what it meant. Great yuo have the clarity now.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure what to say about this..


She filled her void with another person while Matt has even a larger one. Too much of her posts are about her. Filling her needs. Talking to Matt instead instead of CJ but nothing about her listening to Matt. 

Mrs M does not think Matt can replace her but I think it will be pretty easy for him to do so. She is focused on a past that no longer exists. She has changes and so has Matt. 

There is no way that CJ could have replaced Matt if he focus was her family. The fact of the matter is it has not been.

Matt is a teacher too. Why didn't his students become more important than his wife or child? Do these kids only attend one class? The needy student thing is pure BS and a choice and excuse for Mrs M. 

These are choices she made and needs to figure out why she made them before she attempts to move forward.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Mrs_Mathias said:


> We discussed this a bit the other night on the phone, but not to the level of clarity that I expressed it here. I've been thinking about it constantly since our initial conversation, and had a lot more realizations since then. I need to spend some real time on that in therapy. I am driven. Absolutely. But I NEED to learn to dial that back, to give myself permission to be satisfied with myself as us and understand that it is ok for me to choose to relax and prioritize "soft" goals over measurae achievements. I know I will be happier in the long run if I can accomplish this. It won't be easy at all. I will have to fight many years of habits, expectations, and ideas. But I don't WANT to be that person anymore. * I don't like who I am and how I judge myself. So I have to try something new. Better understanding this does really help me assess my motivations in any given situation, and helps me hear more clearly what Matt is asking for. It may be too late, and I hate that more than anything,* but for myself and my son, I've got to break this habit. I DON'T want it to be passed on to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think that if you adjust to much to what you think has to be your role in your family, you may end up in about the same situation: Driven to chase things and behaviour that is not really YOU.

You could define your new self, and who you want to grow to. THEN see how Matt likes that, if he doesn't, bad for him, but you at least can be happy with a chance to be yourself.

And him will be spared a situation that is not genuine a uniting of true souls.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, I returned home yesterday. Matt and I had a really rough night on Friday, as many of you have seen/heard. He still came to the performance on Saturday. It was such an incredible gift to have him there with me. We ate a quick dinner, went to the production, and he accompanied me to the donor/cast party afterwards before we returned to the hotel. 

I will never forget his strength and caring in sharing that experience with me. I was a wreck, multiple performers were sick, one major character was vomiting in his dressing room pre-show, I hadn't slept for two days, and I was so worried about how Matt would react to the show and it's subject matter. He told me I looked beautiful, held my hand throughout, and was the incredible man that I know him to be throughout the evening.

We drove home yesterday and spent the day with our son, playing and relaxing together. I have hurt him so badly, he is really struggling with the anger and betrayal. But I am so blessed that he is struggling with it, not just letting it take hold of him. He suggested we spend last night "pair bonding" trying to reconnect with each other, even after everything I have put him through. He found the card I wrote him on our wedding day 11 years ago, and asked me to read what I wrote with him. It was so painful for both of us to read the hopeful, positive, committed words I wrote and to know that I completely failed to live up to the future I promised us. To know how deeply I loved him, and still do, and yet, I was so weak, selfish, and stupid to do what I did.

Our son woke at the crack of dawn this morning (5 AM! ) and mornings like that are rough for Matt. He wakes angry with me and then the stress of a toddler squirming and poking as we try to convince him to sleep a few more hours with us is just too much. He got up briefly, came back to bed and snuggled me, even though I could tell he was angry and stressed, and then I got up with our son and tried to let him sleep a little more. He even apologized when he got up for being angry!!! It's so ridiculous, the last thing he owes me EVER is an apology for the emotions that he is experiencing because of what I've done to him. He let me hold him, make breakfast for all of us, and then went to school for a bit today while I am headed to IC this afternoon.

Perhaps tonight we will spend some time going through my VAR from the trip. He suggested that last night, but then our son had a tantrum instead of going to bed, since he's been with me in a hotel for the last 10 days. I am so grateful to JCD for the suggestion that I carry one. If Matt wants to know anything about me,what i think and share with others, how I react when we are having a bad night, I want him to have access to that all the time. I'm thinking of carrying one even when I am here at home.

I am so grateful for those of you who have sent positive energy and prayers Matt's way as he struggled these last few days. I don't know if he will be back on TAM, but I know he has found valuable information and support from many of you here.

I am looking forward to my IC session this afternoon. I have a lot that I have been thinking about over the last week, especially some of the observations that Matt has made about me. I feel so different than the woman who was wrapped up in the affair. Sometimes, it's like an out of body experience, trying at this point to accurately recall and describe my emotions then is becoming more difficult. I was always taught that if you want to do well on a test, you need to study in the same type of chemical state that you will take the test in. So if it's an 8 am class, you shouldn't attempt to learn the info at 2 am, hyped up on coffee because your brain can't recall that info as accurately when the chemistry is different at test time. I wonder how much of that is true about this type of circumstance as well? Not that I am forgetting - it's not like that - but that trying to put myself into the emotional state/thought processes I was in is increasingly difficult to do accurately.

I've probably rambled on long enough for this update.


----------



## Kaya62003

I am really impressed by your ability (even though in my situation the effort would be too late) to see the errors of your way. I really hope and pray that this time it is for real and not because you are facing comeuppance. My STBXH apologized over a text and has half assed taken responsibility for possibly ruining two families. So if you do receive a 6th chance, I hope you take it seriously. You may feel awful for destroying the man you love. But I guarantee he feels a lot worse. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

MrsM, pleased that you guys are doing as well as can be expected. My thoughts are with you both. If appropriate, please pass my good wishes to Matt as well.

I hope you appreciate the strength and decency he is showing right now. If he does give you anther chance, it is an incredibly difficult gift to give. He is doing many things for you that I simply could not have done at this stage of things with my wife, and he has my deep respect.


----------



## familyfirst09

I've been reading through your thread the best I can (its very long) but I do wish the best for both of you. The fact that you are clearly remorseful for your actions is good to see. I hope it works out for you both and your son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

Mrs M, you are experiencing something I know too well. You said...

I have a lot that I have been thinking about over the last week, especially some of the observations that Matt has made about me. I feel so different than the woman who was wrapped up in the affair. Sometimes, it's like an out of body experience, trying at this point to accurately recall and describe my emotions then is becoming more difficult.


With my situation, I feel like I woke up and while I was unconscious my evil twin showed up and did crazy stuff while pretending to be me. Now, I'm left trying to explain things that I really can't say what motivated me and when I say "I don't know" to my wife, I mean it. It feels like an entirely different person acted out and now I have to answer for it.
I think your very capable of loving Matt to your core. And it sounds like you may be starting to understand the person who is inside you. You better understand that person inside you and you need to treat that person like an enemy who will ruin your life if left unattended. 
When a person has the ability to compartmentalize to the degree you can it's dangerous for anyone who will be in an intimate, committed relationship with you. I know this because I am that way. It played out differently for me but it still hurts the people who have expectations of you.
Anyway, good luck to you both. Your on the right track. IMHO


----------



## CantSitStill

Expect him to change his mind again and again, he will have good days and real bad days. My husband flip flopped on staying with me alot through this past year from my EA. He can't just erase the memories of what I did. Good luck to you. It's a rough road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

The way he left his own thread was not of a detached, "meh" man. It was the way an angry man would do it. He's just entering the anger phase. Just starting. The rollercoaster is unpredictable but anger hit on schedule as expected. Are you up to the task?

Mrs., angry is way better than indiferent, way better. Indiference means no hope.

Just saying.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> The way he left his own thread was not of a detached, "meh" man. It was the way an angry man would do it. He's just entering the anger phase. Just starting. The rollercoaster is unpredictable but anger hit on schedule as expected. Are you up to the task?
> 
> Mrs., angry is way better than indiferent, way better. Indiference means no hope.
> 
> Just saying.



I agree. I think I am up to the task. I feel like I have been doing well both expecting it and trying to help him with it.


----------



## SoulStorm

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I agree. I think I am up to the task. I feel like I have been doing well both expecting it and trying to help him with it.


The anger can last a while. It is going to take a lot of patience. Genuine patience.
You are going to appear to be doing everything wrong, even when you are doing things right.
It will be his anger driving him.
Buckle in. If you thought it was difficult before. The superstorm has just arrived.


----------



## Wazza

Just checking in. Hope you guys are ok.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

We're ok. It was nice to be home this week. Matt and our son and I spent the weekend at home relaxing and being totally unproductive.  It was wonderful. Matt has been doing pretty well, I think. Actually amazingly well, considering all that I have put him through. He hasn't had any big blowups since last Friday, and has really been very communicative with me. 

Last night he played a Nepalese singing bowl for me that he picked up on Friday night. It was really unusual sounding and I loved hearing it. Matt says it is for the throat chakra, to help with communication and wisdom. God knows I need all the help I can get in those areas, so I hope to hear it often!

I am doing ok as well. I still fight panic attacks/depression as I face everything that I have done and the toll it has taken on our lives. I wish it was all just a nightmare, that I hadn't been so stupid and selfish. But it's not. I just try to live every day showing the appreciation and love for my husband and family that I didn't do during the affair. However many days, weeks, or hopefully years it is that I have left to share with them.

Thanks for checking in.


----------



## Acabado

Hi
I don't like to bring other's threads post to different ones but... stop the shortcuts, stop offering free passes, just stop it. Show him more respect than you did in the past. It's not love but manipulation. Don't fool yourself believing otherwise. The plan is not making him lower himself but upping yours.


Glad to hear things are better at home. 
Hang in there.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> Hi
> I don't like to bring other's threads post to different ones but... stop the shortcuts, stop offering free passes, just stop it. Show him more respect than you did in the past. It's not love but manipulation. Don't fool yourself believing otherwise. The plan is not making him lower himself but upping yours.
> 
> 
> Glad to hear things are better at home.
> Hang in there.


Hey Acabado, it could be confusion and desperation to find an answer. Doesn't have to be manipulation, at least not in a cynical or negative sense.

But I agree with your point....I don't see how a revenge affair could possibly heal anything, and I've never seen anyone who had one post on TAM saying how well it worked out...plenty who said it didn't. 

Aim for the high road, not the low road. The view is better!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I don't feel like I am attempting to offer him shortcuts or manipulate him. He has asked hypothetical questions about free passes/revenge affairs, and i don't feel that I have the right to deny him that after what I have done. I am focused every day on spending time with him, showing love to him through communication, affection, partnership, and transparency. I am trying to be a whole person again, and give my complete engagement to my family, not parcel it out to work, family, friends, students. The LAST thing I want is for Matt to become ANYTHING even remotely like me. But if those assurances/agreements are important to him, how can I deny that? I want him to have EVERYTHING possible to him that will help him heal. Do I think a free pass or revenge affair would ultimately help him heal? No, I don't think so, but I wouldn't want to think that I can possibly know best what Matt needs and wants at this point over his own perceptions. So if he wants it/needs it, and it's in my power to help him, I am doing it. Maybe that's not right, but I don't know what else could be better right now.


----------



## Acabado

Can you deny? Not, becasue yon don't have that power, never had. He never denied you an affair, you claimed fidelity as he did, it was an understanding. Can you tell him you won't like? YES. Unless you "like" the trade off. Boundaires. Friend.
Yeah, you will come up as an hypocrite, screw that. You will BE honest. You can tell him what you think. He will do what he wants, as everybody else.


----------



## dogman

Acabado said:


> Can you deny? Not, becasue yon don't have that power, never had. He never denied you an affair, you claimed fidelity as he did, it was an understanding. Can you tell him you won't like? YES. Unless you "like" the trade off. Boundaires. Friend.
> Yeah, you will come up as an hypocrite, screw that. You will BE honest. You can tell him what you think. He will do what he wants, as everybody else.


When a WS offers an affair to the BS it shows they really don't have the same beliefs about the sacredness of sex in marriage.

It brings us back to the whole reason the infidelity happened in the first place. They don't value the intimacy of sex


----------



## The Middleman

As some one who believes that revenge affairs have value, I can say that it has absolutely no value when your WS gives you permission to do it. If I were the BS, I would tell my WS to stick that permission where the sun don't shine. I would have my revenge affair when I'm ready and when it gives me the maximum benefit in terms of ego boost and self esteem. I would only tell my WS about it when I'm certain that it would cause similar emotional distress to her that her betrayal caused me. That is what levels the playing field.


----------



## J Valley

The Middleman said:


> As some one who believes that revenge affairs have value, I can say that it has absolutely no value when your WS gives you permission to do it.


I agree. I would rather divorce than to have revenge affairs. It makes no sense at all.


----------



## WyshIknew

The Middleman said:


> As some one who believes that revenge affairs have value, I can say that it has absolutely no value when your WS gives you permission to do it. If I were the BS, I would tell my WS to stick that permission where the sun don't shine. I would have my revenge affair when I'm ready and when it gives me the maximum benefit in terms of ego boost and self esteem. I would only tell my WS about it when I'm certain that it would cause similar emotional distress to her that her betrayal caused me. That is what levels the playing field.


This is something I've mentioned before.

But to look at it in the cold light of day. If you are going to remain in a marriage so that 5 years down the line you can have a revenge affair that causes the maximum emotional distress to your former wayward partner, it paints a pretty poor picture of the person that could do that.

To be honest if somebody is at that stage they really should just say, "Fvck it, I'm gone. Have a wonderfully sh1tty rest of your life with POSOM/W. He/she doesn't want you? Well tough sh1t, neither do I."


----------



## Acabado

The Middleman said:


> I would have my revenge affair when I'm ready and when it gives me the maximum benefit in terms of ego boost and self esteem. I would only tell my WS about it when I'm certain that it would cause similar emotional distress to her that her betrayal caused me. That is what levels the playing field.


I must be so dense... I.Don't.Get.It.


----------



## warlock07

i think he meant revenge affair doesn't make the pain of betrayal go away, just because the BS had sex with someone else..


----------



## The Middleman

Acabado said:


> I must be so dense... I.Don't.Get.It.


 OK, I’ll break it down for you. If I were the victim of a WW, I wouldn’t have a revenge affair just because my WW said it was OK. I would do it for my own reasons, which would be to help with my self-esteem, sexual ego and inflict a little pain on my WW, so she would understand the pain I went through. I would have the revenge affair when my WW least expects it, when and if I felt it was appropriate to have it. Also, if I had the revenge affair, and if I decide to disclose it to my WW, I would choose the timing to assure that my WW would experience some of the pain that she gave me. This is why it’s called a “Revenge Affair”. If you aren’t going to inflict a little pain back, it’s just sex. 

When a WS says a “Revenge Affair” is not a good idea because I don’t want to bring Him/Her down to my level. That’s bullsh1t. What the WS really means is because I don’t want Him/Her to have the affair because I don’t like it and it’s going to hurt. Just more cake eating.

The best way to pull off a revenge affair was seen in the movie “Jarhead”. A BW videotaped her revenge affair and had it sent to her WH while he was deployed. Devastating.


----------



## Acabado

I perfectly understand what you meant, what I don't get is the whole mindset nor the appeal of the goal. It's me who wouldn't want to lower myself to my that level.
I never doubted affairs are about the wayward and their failures, all the facets disgusts me: there's not a single scenario I'd like to wallow in the same mud even less with that level of premeditation. As a matter of fact It would transform me in a even more despicable individual than her.
Don't.Get.It.


----------



## The Middleman

I'm not a person who believes in R when there is a physical betrayal; I couldn't do it. However, if I were to try, I would have to level the playing field in order to do it. It's part of my personality; I would need to get even somehow before moving forward. Some people don't have to get even and they can move forward without it. Those people won't understand my position.


----------



## Acabado

I think you don't get me either. I don't deny the value of revenge, I'm not Madre Teresa, what I won't do is to compromise myself to obtain it, specially in a the same despicable fashion. It would get you "even" in that common denominator way I won't go, ever. Any affair, no matter the motivation or the word you put before would speak of me the same way my wife's affair spoke of her and It spoke very badly of her. I get pride in choosing not behaving that way.
You have sometimes in life no other choice to swallow when there's no other way to get justice but compromising yourself too much so you decide to move on.
I believe it's situational, if someone kill my child I'm sure I'd kill the murderer.


----------



## The Middleman

Acabado said:


> I think you don't get me either. I don't deny the value of revenge, I'm not Madre Teresa, what I won't do is to compromise myself to obtain it, specially in a the same despicable fashion. It would get you "even" in that common denominator way I won't go, ever. Any affair, no matter the motivation or the word you put before would speak of me the same way my wife's affair spoke of her and It spoke very badly of her. I get pride in choosing not behaving that way.
> You have sometimes in life no other choice to swallow when there's no other way to get justice but compromising yourself too much so you decide to move on.
> I believe it's situational, if someone kill my child I'm sure I'd kill the murderer.


Everyone's different and I always say Revenge Affairs are not for everyone. To some the moral high ground is very important. I don't want to put down those who don't feel like I do.

Contrary to what some might believe, for the most part, I'm a nice guy. BUT, I do have a mean streak and if I had a choice I'd rather be feared than loved (kudos to Machiavelli). When I'm wronged, I would have to get even first, especially if I thought it was in my best interest to do so. This is just how I'm built and because this attitude has served me well over the years, I recommend it. But not everyone is like me (which is good for the waywards).


----------



## Wazza

Revenge requires a focus on negative things. I don't see that as helpful. The best way to heal is to move on, and I don't see any point making it harder to heal from infidelity than it already is.

If MrsM is genuinely remorseful she already hates herself. If Doc leaves her, more pain. It's enough.


----------



## CH

Best revenge, divorce your spouse and find someone better and bang the crap out of them.

Can't do any better than that IMO.

And yes, I would flaunt my new love interest to the wife if she would ever cheat on me. (oops, why did I type ex lol)


----------



## Acabado

The Middleman said:


> To some the moral high ground is very important. I don't want to put down those who don't feel like I do.


Hope I got his right.
It's not about to hold the moral ground in the marriage, to have this "over" or in relation to my wife: it's a about keeping my integrity, unrelated to my wife's or anybody else poor choices that I won't have revenge affairs. Not the moral high ground, just behaving in a moral way. Integrity is My goal regardless, not a reaction, infidelity is just wrong itself.


----------



## Wazza

Quoted from Workingatit's thread. An example where the BS holding onto bitterness just hurts them. I had similar experiences in my own reconciliation, but she puts it much better than I could.




> I did tell him last night. I clearly stated how sorry I was that I broguht this damn affair up OVER AND OVER AND OVER for 10 years - in turn making him feel like **** EVERY TIME.
> 
> I apologized for the wall I PUT UP which in turn caused him to put his wall up - no, he has not been perfect - but my inability to forgive and move on is what killed this. I have been miserable to live with.....not fun and carefree but brooding and angry....even my daughter finally told me this...she is 10.
> 
> I told him I love him, I told him that I do think he is a better man than he has ever been and that I am proud of him. I reassured him that although my actions and words may have told him soemthing different - that I am proud to call him my husband....and that I do not want him to ever think I do not think the world of him.
> 
> And I think he heard me.....that is when he hugged me......
> 
> I know the next 30 days are the right thing......I just hope he can break his wall down to let me back in......that is my biggest fear - that he will not trust me to be a better wife, the person I used to be.
> 
> I have said in the past I would stop the heavy talks and nagging...but I never did.....I KNOW I CAN know because the counselor has helped me see what I could not see on my own....


----------



## carmen ohio

Is this discussion of revenge affairs for Mrs_Mathias' or DrMathias' benefit? If not, maybe someone should open up a new thread to continue it.


----------



## Wazza

carmen ohio said:


> Is this discussion of revenge affairs for Mrs_Mathias' or DrMathias' benefit? If not, maybe someone should open up a new thread to continue it.


MrsM gave the doctor permission for a revenge affair. He has a decision to make.


----------



## SkaterDad

Wazza said:


> MrsM gave the doctor permission for a revenge affair. He has a decision to make.


That is the "Do I look fat" **** test, IMO. My WW said on multiple occasions I should find someone hotter, more motivated, higher drive etc. Even when I found out about her last A, and she literally told me to go to hell, and that I should go find someone else to have sex with. It's her (their) way of absolving what they have done. If I do it too, she gets to rationalize it, minimize and internalize the idea that "I never really loved her" or "I really didn't care, and R isn't an option". Stupid and shallow, but what kind of solution would you expect from a WW, one in which THEY get to feel justified, and one in which adding another set of problems is seen as a fix?

As a man though, I could feel a great ego boost by banging a few other women and rubbing it in my WW face, sex has got everything you need to "fix" it, ego, anticipation, testosterone etc. But I don't see the open door as manly. It would have to be a decision Doc made without the Mrs to really have that effect, otherwise it's just a meager handout from the WW, not very alpha at all.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Destroy your own moral principles so someone else can feel better.

If the Doctor did this he would be stooping into the moral fecal matter and would he ever respect himself again. 
This would only make Ms. Mathias feel good.

If he want that DIVORCE her and then he can do whatever he wants and he is not sacrificing his own integrity so She can feel better.


----------



## Tony55

If revenge is the intent, then the best revenge is the one that keeps the person in a constant state of doubt and unease. The WS already knows that they have weakened the marital bond and thus, has now made it easier for their spouse to stray if the opportunity was to arise; what more torture does the wayward need than the insecurity they've already created? A smart betrayed spouse will play that advantage (if revenge is the intent), by making themselves more attractive, being more cordial in social situations, drawing more interest to themselves from the opposite sex, taking time to show more (friendly) interest in others, being cheerful. Do this, and the wayward will feel the pain of their own making, the uncertainty that comes from wondering if its only a matter of time before someone captures their spouses heart, the heart that they themselves left bare to be taken.

T


----------



## cpacan

Tony55 said:


> If revenge is the intent, then the best revenge is the one that keeps the person in a constant state of doubt and unease. The WS already knows that they have weakened the marital bond and thus, has now made it easier for their spouse to stray if the opportunity was to arise; what more torture does the wayward need than the insecurity they've already created? A smart betrayed spouse will play that advantage (if revenge is the intent), by making themselves more attractive, being more cordial in social situations, drawing more interest to themselves from the opposite sex, taking time to show more (friendly) interest in others, being cheerful. Do this, and the wayward will feel the pain of their own making, the uncertainty that comes from wondering if its only a matter of time before someone captures their spouses heart, the heart that they themselves left bare to be taken.
> 
> T


I liked this - good perspective. I think it depends on the situation and people in question, and what the purpose is. The purpose could also be "explorative" or rebuilding self conficence in BS.

I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all in this matter. The couple must discuss it thoroughly before going there.


----------



## Rookie4

I don't see how a revenge affair has any positive value at all. Sure it soothes the ego, but at the same time further weakens the marriage, causing even MORE disassociation and mistrust, plus it lets the WS "off the hook" for the original affair. I fail to see anything good coming from it. 
Those of you who know my story , know that I kicked my cheating wife out of the family home, divorced her and moved on with my life. At first , I'll admit, that there was an element of revenge in my shacking up with lots of other women, but as time passed, my need for revenge and the subsequent ego boost, began to fade and I really began to enjoy the ride, so to speak. It was and is she who has done the heavy lifting to get me to consider a new relationship with her. I did virtually nothing to encourage her for two years. So I guess I'm saying that if you NEED to punish your WS to recoup your self-image, and to rub his/her face in the filth that they created. Divorce them and live life to the fullest. Believe me, they WILL get the message, loud and clear.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> I don't see how a revenge affair has any positive value at all. Sure it soothes the ego, but at the same time further weakens the marriage, causing even MORE disassociation and mistrust, plus it lets the WS "off the hook" for the original affair. I fail to see anything good coming from it.
> Those of you who know my story , know that I kicked my cheating wife out of the family home, divorced her and moved on with my life. At first , I'll admit, that there was an element of revenge in my shacking up with lots of other women, but as time passed, my need for revenge and the subsequent ego boost, began to fade and I really began to enjoy the ride, so to speak. It was and is she who has done the heavy lifting to get me to consider a new relationship with her. I did virtually nothing to encourage her for two years. So I guess I'm saying that if you NEED to punish your WS to recoup your self-image, and to rub his/her face in the filth that they created. Divorce them and live life to the fullest. Believe me, they WILL get the message, loud and clear.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## MEM2020

MM,
Your actions post dd2 have been very consistent. 



QUOTE=Mrs_Mathias;1397303]I don't feel like I am attempting to offer him shortcuts or manipulate him. He has asked hypothetical questions about free passes/revenge affairs, and i don't feel that I have the right to deny him that after what I have done. I am focused every day on spending time with him, showing love to him through communication, affection, partnership, and transparency. I am trying to be a whole person again, and give my complete engagement to my family, not parcel it out to work, family, friends, students. The LAST thing I want is for Matt to become ANYTHING even remotely like me. But if those assurances/agreements are important to him, how can I deny that? I want him to have EVERYTHING possible to him that will help him heal. Do I think a free pass or revenge affair would ultimately help him heal? No, I don't think so, but I wouldn't want to think that I can possibly know best what Matt needs and wants at this point over his own perceptions. So if he wants it/needs it, and it's in my power to help him, I am doing it. Maybe that's not right, but I don't know what else could be better right now.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jim123

I did not want to post this on the reconciliation thread. You have to know that your student knows as most if not all the class. You are more than likely a legend for 18 6to 21 year olds. 

It seems that a lot of Matt's students seem to know. 

CJ was not too quite and you were pretty open too.


----------



## JustPuzzled

jim123 said:


> I did not want to post this on the reconciliation thread. You have to know that your student knows as most if not all the class. You are more than likely a legend for 18 6to 21 year olds.
> 
> It seems that a lot of Matt's students seem to know.
> 
> CJ was not too quite and you were pretty open too.


Maybe. Maybe not. Although I have been in a management role for many years and present a very convincing picture of mature competence I was once a stoned idiotic Arts major. Dates back then were always blurred. For the most part I flew through those years without keeping track of what happened. It was always about what to do "next".


----------



## jim123

So you would have gone into a married 36 year old teachers office after only a fews weeks of class and told her you were attracted to her and did not know how to handle it?

That takes a lot of balls. Let's face it, for most students it would not have ended well. Her answer of it is important to recognize these feelings but not act on them is a joke.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs M, did students approach you like that before D Day?

Sorry, I can't put any interpretation on the story other than a student who knows your reputation trying for themselves. But if it used to happen before 2012, maybe I am wrong.

Sadly, I suspect the rumour mill has probably created a reputation for you that exceeds reality.

I am really interested in your reply but only if it isn't going to hurt Matt.


----------



## JustPuzzled

jim123 said:


> So you would have gone into a married 36 year old teachers office after only a fews weeks of class and told her you were attracted to her and did not know how to handle it?
> 
> That takes a lot of balls. Let's face it, for most students it would not have ended well. Her answer of it is important to recognize these feelings but not act on them is a joke.


Most of my profs were men. The few female profs were older and, although some were quite attractive, I respected them a great deal. I would not have thought to try anything.

If the instructor had been an attractive woman with whom I felt a "connection" I would definitely have tried something, especially if I had not respected them intellectually or, heck, just in general. I am told I was a sharp looking guy back then. I generally got what I tried for. I certainly pushed a lot of boundaries.

Funny thing...

I have been in a relationship with my wife since our early 20s. Never cheated, never tempted (barring one small bump outlined in another thread) but I have often felt a strong "connection" with several women with whom I have worked. These women have always been attractive and I have had many, many lunches alone with them. I spent, legitimately, through work, a lot of time with them. There was "out of office time", as well.

These women were fantastic office allies. I suspect that their attractiveness gave them added influence in the office. Whatever. I genuinely liked them all and there was never a conversation that I could not have had in front of my wife.

Some of them were single. I never thought about it until I was travelling on a product launch tour with one of these "allies". In one town I realized that we needed to revamp our presentation for the local sales team at short notice. My laptop could not open the presentation and I called her to ask if I could use hers and she said that I should come to her room.

So, I went to her room. This woman was (still is) a bombshell. Natural straw blond and very buxom. Very smart, too. Anyway, she handed me her laptop and I started making changes while she took a shower.

She got out of the shower and was doing her makeup in her bathrobe when I realized that, on the face of it, this looked really bad if someone was looking. I mentioned and she agreed. This was all business, but it looked terrible.

I finished my changes, got her additions,and went back to my room.

We have both changed companies but we see each other occasionally. That business trip still makes me cringe a bit. I have seen marriages melt down with evidence of less contact than that.

My point here is that "connection", as mentioned by MrsM, can happen often. And there can be opportunity. And nothing can happen. IF PEOPLE KNOW BOUNDRIES AND USE COMMON SENSE.

There are three threads that I have read in CWI that truly make me both sad and angry. MrsM is in two of them.


----------



## dogman

JustPuzzled said:


> Most of my profs were men. The few female profs were older and, although some were quite attractive, I respected them a great deal. I would not have thought to try anything.
> 
> If the instructor had been an attractive woman with whom I felt a "connection" I would definitely have tried something, especially if I had not respected them intellectually or, heck, just in general. I am told I was a sharp looking guy back then. I generally got what I tried for. I certainly pushed a lot of boundaries.
> 
> Funny thing...
> 
> I have been in a relationship with my wife since our early 20s. Never cheated, never tempted (barring one small bump outlined in another thread) but I have often felt a strong "connection" with several women with whom I have worked. These women have always been attractive and I have had many, many lunches alone with them. I spent, legitimately, through work, a lot of time with them. There was "out of office time", as well.
> 
> These women were fantastic office allies. I suspect that their attractiveness gave them added influence in the office. Whatever. I genuinely liked them all and there was never a conversation that I could not have had in front of my wife.
> 
> Some of them were single. I never thought about it until I was travelling on a product launch tour with one of these "allies". In one town I realized that we needed to revamp our presentation for the local sales team at short notice. My laptop could not open the presentation and I called her to ask if I could use hers and she said that I should come to her room.
> 
> So, I went to her room. This woman was (still is) a bombshell. Natural straw blond and very buxom. Very smart, too. Anyway, she handed me her laptop and I started making changes while she took a shower.
> 
> She got out of the shower and was doing her makeup in her bathrobe when I realized that, on the face of it, this looked really bad if someone was looking. I mentioned and she agreed. This was all business, but it looked terrible.
> 
> I finished my changes, got her additions,and went back to my room.
> 
> We have both changed companies but we see each other occasionally. That business trip still makes me cringe a bit. I have seen marriages melt down with evidence of less contact than that.
> 
> My point here is that "connection", as mentioned by MrsM, can happen often. And there can be opportunity. And nothing can happen. IF PEOPLE KNOW BOUNDRIES AND USE COMMON SENSE.
> 
> There are three threads that I have read in CWI that truly make me both sad and angry. MrsM is in two of them.



Wow, nice post. It says a lot. I'm not sure I understand the disconnect that it takes to step over the boundaries you mention and get physical while in a generally good marriage.

Yeah, I get "thinking about IT" but to actually do it is a huge disconnect that takes a certain kind of selfishness.


----------



## shazam

dogman said:


> Wow, nice post. It says a lot. I'm not sure I understand the disconnect that it takes to step over the boundaries you mention and get physical while in a generally good marriage.
> 
> Yeah, I get "thinking about IT" but to actually do it is a huge disconnect that takes a certain kind of selfishness.


Guy was 21, I repeat 21. People with older kids no how ridiculous it is to have a connection with a 21 yr old.


----------



## sandc

This kid heard about it through the grapevine and was going to try to score. Mrs.M, you will have to work to recover her reputation at work as well. I would have liked to have read a more stern reply from you to him. This isn't a 6th grader you're dealing with. I would have liked to have read a reply that stated first and foremost that you are married and therefore are not available. And that secondly, you are his instructor and therefore it would be unprofessional. Then you could launch into I'm to old for you, how about you find a girl your own age, yadda yadda.


----------



## Wazza

sandc said:


> This kid heard about it through the grapevine and was going to try to score. Mrs.M, you will have to work to recover her reputation at work as well. I would have liked to have read a more stern reply from you to him. This isn't a 6th grader you're dealing with. I would have liked to have read a reply that stated first and foremost that you are married and therefore are not available. And that secondly, you are his instructor and therefore it would be unprofessional. Then you could launch into I'm to old for you, how about you find a girl your own age, yadda yadda.


How can she say that and be believed if she has known to have directly contradicted all those things by her past actions? It would make her a laughing stock.

When there is nothing you can say, say nothing. Just "I am your teacher. That is it! This conversation is over." And show him the door. Be a little cold even.

Actions can show that she is not an easy lay. Words cannot.

The other thing that occurs....the attempt at explanation may be part of her teaching style. The same teaching style that had poor boundaries and led to the affair. If so, that is another reason to take a more distant approach.


----------



## sandc

Wazza said:


> How can she say that and be believed if she has known to have directly contradicted all those things by her past actions? It would make her a laughing stock.
> 
> When there is nothing you can say, say nothing. Just *"I am your teacher. That is it! This conversation is over*." And show him the door. Be a little cold even.
> 
> Actions can show that she is not an easy lay. Words cannot.
> 
> The other thing that occurs....the attempt at explanation may be part of her teaching style. The same teaching style that had poor boundaries and led to the affair. If so, that is another reason to take a more distant approach.



Even better.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I did not give him reasons we could not be together - I'm to old, find another girl, etc. I told him point blank that our relationship was strictly professional - teacher/student. I informed my husband that day, and I met with human resources today. Yes, I am married. Yes that is a reason. But even if I was single, I would NOT accept advances from a student. So I didn't discuss any "reasons" with him beyond the obvious.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> Mrs M, did students approach you like that before D Day?
> 
> Sorry, I can't put any interpretation on the story other than a student who knows your reputation trying for themselves. But if it used to happen before 2012, maybe I am wrong.
> 
> Sadly, I suspect the rumour mill has probably created a reputation for you that exceeds reality.
> 
> I am really interested in your reply but only if it isn't going to hurt Matt.


As long as I have been teaching, there have been students I have been aware had "crushes" on me. Most often these students arranged for me to find out through a friend of theirs, often female. None have approached me that directly before. Matt has often had the same thing happen to him. As a matter of fact, one year we were the subject of a pact between a male and female student that they would work together to split us up or find a way to each have at us. Of course, we used to laugh about those things, but obviously not anymore.


----------



## warlock07

Of course, we used to laugh about those things, but obviously not anymore.


----------



## shazam

sandc said:


> This kid heard about it through the grapevine and was going to try to score. Mrs.M, you will have to work to recover her reputation at work as well. I would have liked to have read a more stern reply from you to him. This isn't a 6th grader you're dealing with. I would have liked to have read a reply that stated first and foremost that you are married and therefore are not available. And that secondly, you are his instructor and therefore it would be unprofessional. Then you could launch into I'm to old for you, how about you find a girl your own age, yadda yadda.


This is a lost cause, as long as word of mouth exists kids are always going to be whispering about how she banged a student. She should expect more advances from her male students now.


----------



## JCD

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Perhaps tonight we will spend some time going through my VAR from the trip. He suggested that last night, but then our son had a tantrum instead of going to bed, since he's been with me in a hotel for the last 10 days. I am so grateful to JCD for the suggestion that I carry one. If Matt wants to know anything about me,what i think and share with others, how I react when we are having a bad night, I want him to have access to that all the time. I'm thinking of carrying one even when I am here at home.


This isn't a sustainable lifestyle. But right now, you are at a very delicate part of your relationship, so sometimes a bit of extreme measures are called for. For about $80, it takes a SLEW of mental movies off the table...and it also helps you be a bit more mindful about your boundary issues.

As a mental exercise, I would suggest you pretend that Matt is next to you every time you are in a conversation. That will distinctly change the nature of what you say and how you act.

I'm glad the trip is over without anything horrible happening


----------



## JCD

shazam said:


> This is a lost cause, as long as word of mouth exists kids are always going to be whispering about how she banged a student. She should expect more advances from her male students now.


Well...she's in a community college, IIRC. Which means there is about a 4 year turn over, what with the perma students.

So as they graduate and nothing fresh comes down the pike, it will eventually die...depending on how much the faculty knows (THAT is the real danger)

But wasn't she moving with Matt to someplace else at the end of the year? So it is irrelevant.

She will always wear that Scarlet Letter, but it's going to be a personal blot between her and Matt, not a public one reasonably soon. They can decide how much it will count on her performance review.


----------



## Broken at 20

That may or may not hold true. 

At my community college, the theater department tends to keep kids a bit longer. I had to take a theater class (because my major required it...stupid requirements) and I met a lot of theater students. Some of them had been at the school for 5+ years, taking more and more classes. 
Students also switch majors all the time. So they may decide that after 1.5 semesters they want to switch it up. So they may have to spend another 1.5 semester or longer at the community college. 
Also, part-time students obviously take longer to leave. 

By the way Mrs.M, have you checked ratemyprofessor.com yet?
Because you may want to make sure that no one left any ideas for future students that you may teach.


----------



## ravioli

Students know which teachers are putting out or capable of putting out. The kid didn't even have to know this woman slept with a child, he probably just had a sixth sense that she is capable of giving it up to her students. Mrs Mathias gives off a sexual vibe and cues that she can be taken. Bold men, and players can pick up on this. He never really feared the repercussions, and if he did hear through the grapevine that she can be had by a student it just made that much easier for him to approach her.

Mrs. Mathias was very open with her affair. Many Students knew. This tells you the respect level she had for her husband. She chose to smoke weed ,peel away the young boy's girlfriend and compete with her, have sex in a rat/roach infested dirty dorm room, and party and drink with students. You add all these factors up and young 18-22 yr old boys are chomping at the bit to have sex with their instructor. Stories have been passed around and with each exaggeration from one to the next, there is no telling in what the students think of her or what she is capable of doing. 

Mrs Mathias even stated she wanted her young lover boy and Matt at the same time. I'm guessing she wanted matt for domestication purposes and the young lad for sex. She was in a state of flux and ultimately wished she can have a life of both of them at the same time.


----------



## dogman

ravioli said:


> Students know which teachers are putting out or capable of putting out. The kid didn't even have to know this woman slept with a child, he probably just had a sixth sense that she is capable of giving it up to her students. Mrs Mathias gives off a sexual vibe and cues that she can be taken. Bold men, and players can pick up on this. He never really feared the repercussions, and if he did hear through the grapevine that she can be had by a student it just made that much easier for him to approach her.
> 
> Mrs. Mathias was very open with her affair. Many Students knew. This tells you the respect level she had for her husband. She chose to smoke weed ,peel away the young boy's girlfriend and compete with her, have sex in a rat/roach infested dirty dorm room, and party and drink with students. You add all these factors up and young 18-22 yr old boys are chomping at the bit to have sex with their instructor. Stories have been passed around and with each exaggeration from one to the next, there is no telling in what the students think of her or what she is capable of doing.
> 
> Mrs Mathias even stated she wanted her young lover boy and Matt at the same time. I'm guessing she wanted matt for domestication purposes and the young lad for sex. She was in a state of flux and ultimately wished she can have a life of both of them at the same time.


Ouch!


----------



## jameskimp

ravioli said:


> Students know which teachers are putting out or capable of putting out. The kid didn't even have to know this woman slept with a child, he probably just had a sixth sense that she is capable of giving it up to her students. Mrs Mathias gives off a sexual vibe and cues that she can be taken. Bold men, and players can pick up on this. He never really feared the repercussions, and if he did hear through the grapevine that she can be had by a student it just made that much easier for him to approach her.
> 
> Mrs. Mathias was very open with her affair. Many Students knew. This tells you the respect level she had for her husband. She chose to smoke weed ,peel away the young boy's girlfriend and compete with her, have sex in a rat/roach infested dirty dorm room, and party and drink with students. You add all these factors up and young 18-22 yr old boys are chomping at the bit to have sex with their instructor. Stories have been passed around and with each exaggeration from one to the next, there is no telling in what the students think of her or what she is capable of doing.
> 
> Mrs Mathias even stated she wanted her young lover boy and Matt at the same time. I'm guessing she wanted matt for domestication purposes and the young lad for sex. She was in a state of flux and ultimately wished she can have a life of both of them at the same time.


It takes a special breed to people to have the balls to say this to a teacher. I'm close to this age group and I've never seen or heard this going on aside from the cases you hear of teachers of students having sex with underage students.

I believe it is most likely a prank due to her racy past. Or my judgmental mind says music class + community college = not the brightest kids.


----------



## jim123

Mrs,

I am not attacking you, just trying to help connect those dots.

To your husband, CJ is a villian. Stand by your husband, Trust his judgement. CJ betrayed you, his friend, Betrayed your husband, his friend. Has torn apart your family, 

He has told people and betrayed your trust and added to your husband humiliation

When you see him for what he is, you will see others that are like him. Your boundries will be easier. When the next student comes it will be an are you kidding me and get out of my office,

It does not have to be hate. To CM the OM is jager and she hates jager.

Just my opinion.

The Dr does love you despite what you have done. You can make it work.


----------



## Horizon

Mrs Mathias, what drove you to have the A? Were you both estranged?? Bored???


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jameskimp said:


> It takes a special breed to people to have the balls to say this to a teacher.


Hunh?


----------

