# Retroactive jealousy--To those who are bothered by wives' past sextual experiences



## roamingmind

I understand it's difficult feeling, but I am deeply saddened by the husbands/fiancees' who claim their " profound love " yet couldn't stop punishing their wives/fiancees for their honesty and the unchangeable past, questioning their morales ,values despite the fact the wives/fiancees have " done nothing but love me" . 

I am not here to criticize their feelings are wrong; but what they are doing is very insulting and hurtful to the ones they claim to love deeply. 

Retroactive Jealousy -- if you haven't already looked it up-- hope the information will help. 

Retroactive-jealousy.com

10 Ways to Deal With Your Partner’s Sexual Past (Because You Have To)

Guidelines for dealing with (retroactive) jealousy - Conscious Loving Relationship Advice Forum & Community


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## Catherine602

It upsets me so much. One poster was married for 20 years, had children and a wife who was exemplary. He began to have problems and practically tortured his good wife because of his problem. I think women react as if the man is being reasonable and allow themselves to abused. 

It is better to consider that their husband is mentally ill and tell him to get help. Set boundaries if he refuses to get help consider divorce . Has to treated like any other abusive relationship.

I really don't understand how a man who claims to love his partner can torture her? The judgement heaped on women is astounding to me. Both from the OP and men who pipe in about "values". I'll bet these guys with "values" look at porn, make comments to women in the street, talk about sex with women with the buddies. 

There are the same guys who watch porn, have sowed their wild oats, applaud the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, think about having sex with random women or are having an affair or would if they could get away with it. I wonder where their "values" are? Ahh but these are just things that men do so it's OK. Doesn't mean they don't love their wives, doesn't make them bad men. 

It seems that the value guys think men are inherently good and entitled to sexual expression any way they want and what ever they do does not effect their basic goodness. Besides it's the testosterone, seed spreading instincts that naturally can not be controlled. 

Women on the other hand are evil temptress who need to be controlled by the value guys so that they have access when ever they want. 

I think it is a remnant of bygone days when women were expected to be virgins while men weeded around. This BS will fade away when the men who came of age in repressive times are no longer exerting any influence. Men coming of age today just like men adapted to women voting, having careers, using birth control and being in positions of power. 

I'd advise women not to divulge details about their sex lives. I don't understand why women do that. If the man insist on knowing drop him too much trouble. That will avoid many of these problems. That and avoiding sexually insecure men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## e.p.

What's with the vitrol Catherine? Hit too close to home?

I am not saying jealous men are justified but research shows women are more likely to cheat and more likely to initiate divorce, and while past events do not guarantee future results they sure do serve as an indicator. Do some reading on female hypergamy. 

Don't try painting all men with the same brush. I haven't sowed wild oats, I haven't applauded the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, I haven't thought about having sex with random women or had an affair. In fact I was a virgin entering our marriage, whereas my wife came with "experience" ... 

-e.p.


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## panterra1011

If a man is going to look down on his wife or think poorly of her for her past decisions and experience, than why marry her to begin with? My husband has only ever been with one other woman besides me, his high school girlfriend they lost their virginity to each other, and I...well...I've been with a handful of guys. Done lots of things I look back on now with some regret. But my husband loves me. He tells me my past doesn't matter because it's the *past*...I must agree men who are unable to live in the present with the woman they are married to now and who must constantly berate and put down their wives for things done in the past, especially things done before their relationship ever began, have some serious issues and should seek professional help to get past it if they truly love their partner. I am certainly not going to tolerate being treated poorly for things I did when I was younger. People change and mature. I'm definitely not the same person I was even three or four years ago. No one should be verbally abused or put down or made to feel bad for choices made in the past. Let ig to. Cause it can't be changed, and it doesn't say anything about the person they are today because even as adults most people continually grow and mature with time and life experience.


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## snared1

My wife were open about our sexual past which equated to us each having 1 partner before we met. I did not have a problem with that what has always bothered me is that it became quite obvious to me that he is the one she wanted but could not have (bad boy would not be approved of by her family and friends). I was Mr. Safe. Isn't that just what every guy wants to be. 

How do I know this? I have always thought it but one of her closest confidants was relating this to someone and did not know I was within earshot. Nice eh? I have often heard my wife counsel daughters, nieces and other young women that it is always good to date a "bad boy" before you get married so you can get that out of your system. The only problem is that I do not believe he will ever be that from an emotional standpoint with her.


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## magnoliagal

snared1 said:


> I have often heard my wife counsel daughters, nieces and other young women that it is always good to date a "bad boy" before you get married so you can get that out of your system. The only problem is that I do not believe he will ever be that from an emotional standpoint with her.


See and therein lies the problem. I once read be careful who you date because you never know who you will fall in love with.


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## darrenk1

Catherine602 said:


> It upsets me so much. One poster was married for 20 years, had children and a wife who was exemplary. He began to have problems and practically tortured his good wife because of his problem. I think women react as if the man is being reasonable and allow themselves to abused.
> 
> It is better to consider that their husband is mentally ill and tell him to get help. Set boundaries if he refuses to get help consider divorce . Has to treated like any other abusive relationship.
> 
> I really don't understand how a man who claims to love his partner can torture her? The judgement heaped on women is astounding to me. Both from the OP and men who pipe in about "values". I'll bet these guys with "values" look at porn, make comments to women in the street, talk about sex with women with the buddies.
> 
> There are the same guys who watch porn, have sowed their wild oats, applaud the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, think about having sex with random women or are having an affair or would if they could get away with it. I wonder where their "values" are? Ahh but these are just things that men do so it's OK. Doesn't mean they don't love their wives, doesn't make them bad men.
> 
> It seems that the value guys think men are inherently good and entitled to sexual expression any way they want and what ever they do does not effect their basic goodness. Besides it's the testosterone, seed spreading instincts that naturally can not be controlled.
> 
> Women on the other hand are evil temptress who need to be controlled by the value guys so that they have access when ever they want.
> 
> I think it is a remnant of bygone days when women were expected to be virgins while men weeded around. This BS will fade away when the men who came of age in repressive times are no longer exerting any influence. Men coming of age today just like men adapted to women voting, having careers, using birth control and being in positions of power.
> 
> I'd advise women not to divulge details about their sex lives. I don't understand why women do that. If the man insist on knowing drop him too much trouble. That will avoid many of these problems. That and avoiding sexually insecure men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 ACTUALLY THERE ARE MEN WITH VALUES !!and its glaringly obvious you were one of these women that was at the bar with a new man everyweek! I am a man that's dealing with this and Letter me tell you its not abuse ???I was married 5 years and together 6and completely lied to about her sexual past I was told 10 its actually 25 and 18 one night stands AND NO I font thinks its ok or normal to do this man women anyone its disgusting sorry but it shows low morals ,and if your a mom then what are you doing?screw all the excuses .....low self worth bla bla bla its nasty and if your a man that's had low amount of parntners and you lived a good respected life then its ok to look for that in a women ...and we all deserve to the know THE TRUTH !!here's my opinion slits and scum bags can all go fu** all they want then date echother !! because the rest of us NORMAL people can date marry and live without being haunted ...to you I just wanna say your the twisted one to think that a hunband dissent have the right to be angry his wife screw all the guys in town
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

This is why you don't share every stinkin detail about your past. Holy hell. This is why you date for a long while before getting committed. Find out for yourself who the person is...don't taint it with sexual jealousy.

I never asked Hubs about his sexual past. I did ask if he'd ever cheated on someone (pretty soon into our relationship) and he said no, and that he'd only had 3 long term gf's. Awesome. he was 24. Good amount. I was 31 so my number was clearly going to be larger. It was.  No one cared.


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## CWM0842

I think it is more likely a problem for some guys if the woman has done lots of things with previous men that she hasn't done with her husband. He feels cheated. Especially if their current sex life is boring.


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## that_girl

CWM0842 said:


> I think it is more likely a problem for some guys if the woman has done lots of things with previous men that she hasn't done with her husband. He feels cheated. Especially if their current sex life is boring.


Well, that's the woman's fault for telling her past secrets if she wasn't going to perform now.


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## Mavash.

This post is a year old.


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## darrenk1

I hate writing from my phone ...spelling is horrible lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

Mavash. said:


> This post is a year old.


HA! Still relevant. Stop tellin about your past, people!


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## WorkingOnMe

Yes if I'm denied something my wife of 20 years gave freely to other men before me then it hurts very much. But as long as I feel I get the best she has to offer then I don't care about her past. 

Also, I think your full of **** trying to call Catherine a ****. Those comments were based on nothing but your own bias.


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## ScaredandUnsure

Nope, I don't share my history with anyone. It's fairly obvious that I am not a virgin, but no one needs to know what kind of sex I had with my ex husband. Sorry, I don't think it's anyone's business what I did with the father of my children.


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## CandieGirl

roamingmind said:


> I understand it's difficult feeling, but I am deeply saddened by the husbands/fiancees' who claim their " profound love " yet couldn't stop punishing their wives/fiancees for their honesty and the unchangeable past, questioning their morales ,values despite the fact the wives/fiancees have " done nothing but love me" .
> 
> I am not here to criticize their feelings are wrong; but what they are doing is very insulting and hurtful to the ones they claim to love deeply.
> 
> Retroactive Jealousy -- if you haven't already looked it up-- hope the information will help.
> 
> Retroactive-jealousy.com
> 
> 10 Ways to Deal With Your Partner’s Sexual Past (Because You Have To)
> 
> Guidelines for dealing with (retroactive) jealousy - Conscious Loving Relationship Advice Forum & Community


I do understand this, really I do...but sometimes, when you get lied to, the way I did, it causes jealousy. I'm not sure why, but it does. Either way, being jealous really sucks...!


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## darrenk1

Look its not always jealousy per say its more the feeling of being disgusted because I didn't live that way and I have always respected women and my own body obviously if there's love involved its not an issue for me that is but finding out my wife lied about her sexual past ,numbers ,experiences ,on and on and YES to many it matters and imo I do see a huge difference between having 5 -maybe10 partners but 20 -+is not someone I would have married because of many reasons .and its up to me and anyone who THEY pick !not tricked mislead "!past is past is a joke .I know people change but sexual past as with any did happen and in my case finding out about 3 ways orgies ,stds,gang members ,crack use ,lying to get pregnant !on and on tons of one night stands?so how is it not ok to feel hurt when lied to deliberately ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pastflame

Jealousy is not the best word to describe the feelings in some of these cases, disappointment would be a better word!

I have issues with my wife's past and have searched for some kind of relief by reading hundreds of these types of posts, it always boils down to the same stand off.... women defending their lifestyle! so guys like us are, weak, insecure, old fashioned, then you get the guys that feed off of the promiscuous women and say guys like us are f*#ked and should just enjoy the "experience" our wife's can offer? and you get the sympathetic people that say, your wife picked you!! you are the one!! she loves you!! or she would be with one of her ex's you won her heart!! really?? to me this is all Blah, Blah, Blah! I am sure she was in love a few time before me too! all that has been shared with many already so nothing realy original there!

If, and I say If, you knew going in "ALL " about your wife's past, then no you have nothing to complain about unless! she is rubbing it in your face, bringing up stuff from her past to hurt or she is showing signs of dis trust, but if it all was revealed before hand and she is treating you with....here is a big word..."respect" then you have no grounds to torment her!

In my case I knew my wife was no virgin in the beginning, she was married before for 10years, had a son and admitted to a "couple" relationships and a "few" dates before we met! 
Before we married I asked some personal questions about her past and she said no nothing happened out of the ordinary, her and her ex husband just grew apart and had some in-law family pressures, as for her ex boyfriends nothing special just dating some last a few months but that was about it!

Unfortunately I found out over a few months period after we were married, she was lying and had a very "busy" sexual lifestyle, which also included cheating on her ex husband with a renter they had in their basement while her ex was working shift work, she had an abortion with this guy and after him came 8 or 9 more in a 4 year period "that I know of" including one nighters, clubbing, old man dating (guys much older than her) etc etc etc. when I did question some of this (not the affair or abortion) but the extra men and her motives, she will blow a fit and deny and of course, come out with the time honored....I am insecure, judgmental etc etc Blah, Blah!! 

One day in the near future I will drop the bomb on all this, but for now I do love her very much, we are happy "most" of the time, she seems to be able to live with it all with no regrets (as she has told me ion the past) so I dont like think of my wife in the way I do but, it haunts me every day it hurts our sex life, even though we attribute it to my lack of performance and Cialis is the cure! I have huge lack of respect for her past and her views on it!

To the Anti people of these posts, you realy have to walk a mile in the shoes of people who are experiencing these problems before you can offer any advice, it is like telling a drug addict, alcoholic or gambler to just...STOP! well not so easy, when you love someone, commit to them, share everything but you find out they are keeping things from you...."that are important to you" it can turn your life up side down! someone on here said, dont share any of your past, someone else said your past is no ones business?? what a load of ****! seriously, think about those comments, would you want your most trusted person in the world keeping things from you? and if they have a mindset about views you feel very strongly about, do you not think these should be discussed, explained and put to rest? I also hear dont judge me!! again what does this mean? dont judge me? why not? you, me, everybody is judged on our past, our performance our attitudes every day, our entire life is judged to get where we are or what we want, apply for a job what happens?, apply for a loan what happens? go to your doctor for help what happens? our past defines us as people...good or bad.. and if someone has a problem with our past that we are close to or bonding with, we have an obligation to reveal our lifestyle and what got us where we are! keeping secrets from loved ones is a ticking time bomb! I am sure my wife never dreamed I would find out the things I know about her, but poop always rises to the top eventually (and some loose lipped in-laws, open e-mail accounts, old letters and a diary) tend to spell a chapter about one's past!

Come clean, get all the cards on the table in the first hand, dont trap people and play with their emotions, everyone seems to agree our past defines us as people and was a manual of living so, there should be nothing to hide then, you are who you are and dont judge other people that are the closest to you for not agreeing with it, everyone has the right to choice, if you dont think your lover, husband or wife can live with the knowledge! then maybe you should be with someone else? but dont make their mind up for them by thinking what is best for them!


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## Twofaces

Jealousy is YOUR insecurity. 

I think the whole subject is B.S. get over it. 

Dont start trouble where there is none. 

I also think some of these jealous ones are looking for a reason to fight, to find fault, to cause a problem. 

Get some counseling or you could be running he risk of ruining your life for no damn good reason.


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## Thor

pastflame said:


> Come clean, get all the cards on the table in the first hand, dont trap people and play with their emotions, everyone seems to agree our past defines us as people and was a manual of living so, there should be nothing to hide then, you are who you are and dont judge other people that are the closest to you for not agreeing with it, everyone has the right to choice, if you dont think your lover, husband or wife can live with the knowledge! then maybe you should be with someone else? but dont make their mind up for them by thinking what is best for them!


:iagree:

It is the lies not the sex which are the problem.


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## pastflame

Thor said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It is the lies not the sex which are the problem.




Lies are the worst, doesn't give you a fare chance and it dont promote trust, again, if we are supposed to be products of our past experiences..."once a liar" or "once a cheat"! and if you dont discuss your mistakes with your partner, how would you expect them to understand and trust you would not be a repeat offender? some statistics say, once you cheat, the second time is easier? who knows.

I would be lying if I didn't admit the past sex is an issue, but it is only a byproduct from the lying, sure when I get up set I have visions of her with the other men, this is mostly because they have had what I expect to be exclusive between two people that love each other, they got it for just window shopping.. like a hand shake more or less or just showing up! Jealous? NOPE, I refuse to give them or her that satisfaction, if I were to admit to being jealous, that would mean I would be putting them on a higher level than me! no way, they are the ones that stole a woman from her husband and child, they are the ones that were banging her when she should have been home looking after her kid instead of clubbing and hunting for some new exciting player! Jealous hell no, just disappointed and a little short changed on true expectations of what I thought I had!


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## RandomDude

My coping mechanism for it is to find the hotness of it all. Unfortunately that just leads to me suggesting threesomes and swinging and her slapping me upside down the head each time telling me to FK off and that she's not my wh-re that I pass around to my mates and that she only wants one c--k and that's mine.


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## johnnycomelately

I would never have married a woman without an extensive sexual past. 

If you want to marry a virgin you should be a virgin yourself and go and live in a traditional society somewhere. Women with experience are much more interesting.


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## darrenk1

Glad you


johnnycomelately said:


> 17 years of happy, faithful marriage and two beautiful children, but thanks for the eloquent advice.[ hey no problem glad you liked it lol look obviously you have a past yourself and it doesn't bother you great it worked out for ya point is there's people with different morals and standards out there that value a women that treats something as important as sex as just that important not like having coffee .....I'm not saying women can't do what they want I'm saying be honest about it and look for someone that's similar in morals
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pastflame

darrenk1 said:


> Glad you
> 
> 
> johnnycomelately said:
> 
> 
> 
> 17 years of happy, faithful marriage and two beautiful children, but thanks for the eloquent advice.[ hey no problem glad you liked it lol look obviously you have a past yourself and it doesn't bother you great it worked out for ya point is there's people with different morals and standards out there that value a women that treats something as important as sex as just that important not like having coffee .....I'm not saying women can't do what they want I'm saying be honest about it and look for someone that's similar in morals
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is my point also, Honesty and the "option" to choose who you want to be with, I am not going to be self righteous and say my way is the best for everyone! I just was raised a certain way and have expectations that will fulfill me and make me content with the person I am sharing everything with, if that person cant be honest and let me choose for myself or at least give it the chance to come to terms with them, what are we ever going to have, if those past experiences need to be avoided or kept a secret, then there must be some seriousness to them and if you feel you need to keep them a secret then you realy are not ment to be together! unless you work for the CIA, secrets always come to the open, when arguing or loose lip friends or family or even the old BF's, someone will spill the beans... better it come from you then have your partner find out and time does not make it go away or ease the shock.
> 
> I am happy for the people that have a different view than me on sex or promiscuity in their life of their partners life, if you and they can live with it and be happy for the rest of your lives then you are lucky, it is only one hurdle in relationships, there will always (in most cases) be something that will take its place as a negative and one of you finds too much to handle, sex may just be low on that list of importance.
> 
> Honesty, no matter if you love the fact you husband or wife screwed 100 before you and you love it, the fact is you knew about it and excepted it, becuse you had that choice!
> 
> And my view on "experience" well my wife as pretty much been sleeping with men from the time she was 20 and she is now 46, 10-15 men in all that time with very little breaks in between each one of them and to me our sex is just sex, nothing earth shattering it gets the job done, I find that with all those memories and experiences just make it routine and business as usually, even a porn star can only take it so many ways and it's mission accomplished.
Click to expand...


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## weightlifter

Jealous? Sorta. I just don't bring it up. As far as what I think ab
Out on a given day... Ranks about #99999.


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## EleGirl

e.p. said:


> What's with the vitrol Catherine? Hit too close to home?
> 
> I am not saying jealous men are justified but research shows women are more likely to cheat and more likely to initiate divorce, and while past events do not guarantee future results they sure do serve as an indicator. Do some reading on female hypergamy.
> 
> Don't try painting all men with the same brush. I haven't sowed wild oats, I haven't applauded the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, I haven't thought about having sex with random women or had an affair. In fact I was a virgin entering our marriage, whereas my wife came with "experience" ...
> 
> -e.p.


There is no research that shows that women are more likely to cheat. Women cheat these days at a level close to men but still a few % points below the level men cheat at.

Women are these days are more likely to file for divorce. But it's often not the woman who actually ended the marriage. BOTH spouses share responsibility for the state of a bad/failed marriage.

I don't think that her post is attacking all men. I think it's addressing social norms.


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## EleGirl

darrenk1 said:


> Look its not always jealousy per say its more the feeling of being disgusted because I didn't live that way and I have always respected women and my own body obviously if there's love involved its not an issue for me that is but finding out my wife lied about her sexual past ,numbers ,experiences ,on and on and YES to many it matters and imo I do see a huge difference between having 5 -maybe10 partners but 20 -+is not someone I would have married because of many reasons .and its up to me and anyone who THEY pick !not tricked mislead "!past is past is a joke .I know people change but sexual past as with any did happen and in my case finding out about 3 ways orgies ,stds,gang members ,crack use ,lying to get pregnant !on and on tons of one night stands?so how is it not ok to feel hurt when lied to deliberately ?


No one is advocating lying and misleading. That's not even what this thread is about.


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## EleGirl

darrenk1 said:


> Lol why because ""YOUR THAT GIRL""right lol no its about living with the choices you make!!and everyone has the right to know if your spending your life with someone !! And to those guys saying experience is good or better dude sex is sex and a women that's classy and only been with guys she's was in a relationship with are just as good as a ****! sex is not that hard !I've been with 9 and I'm damn good in bed you don't have to **** 100 women to be good !!,and letter me say this even most psychologists say promisuous *women are messed up and make horrible partners *!lol if you want links ill provide !facts are facts lying to get a guy is horrible and sleeping with tons is trashy


Guess what... promiscuous men are messed up and generally make bad partners as well.


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## EleGirl

darrenk1 said:


> I respect classy women!!but to say guys that take issue with MEN OR WOMEN that **** tons of random strangers is somehow against women ?your absolutely NUTS!and clearly you were a hoe or still are its the only ones that defend it!I was raised by a single mom I was raised to respect women and I do !I think us guys that value sex and are partners are the ones that actually treat women with respect !,you think the guys at the bars banging all these women respect women lmfao!!no way that love hoes and women with no values because they get to get ***** without anything put in !and to your weak point about insecure men lol yeah right I can post pictures of me if you like I'm 6'3 great shape tan perfect teeth 71/2 **** tattos sexy as hell i used to be a model !lol so don't try the insecure bull**** ..its called I had sex with women I cared about or loved in relationship not just useing them and playing them !I am a great guy and amazing dad ,foster dad ,hard worker and very loving and romantic !,but I can't stand these weak ass points ex slits say to make themselves feel better lol look its simple if sleeping with tons of guys random hookups is normal or there's nothing wrong with it then DON'T LIE ABOUT IT !ZTELL THE TRUTH SO YOU CAN END UP WITH SOMEONE LIKE YOURSELF THAT DOESN'T CARE ETHER!™but don't talk **** to the respectful guys like me that struggle because we were lied to and tricked into marrying a women that we spent are whole lives trying to avoid !!


Did you really just call Catherine602 a ho? A *****? Really? Do you know that personal attacks are against the forum rules?

Her post was about men who marry a woman whose sexual past he knows.. then he spends the next 20 years berating her for her past. If he was not ok with her past he should not have married her. That's the point.


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## Caribbean Man

Men and women view sex differently.

Here's a scenario.
Boy meets girl , they fall in love . The sex is great and they have good chemistry. Boy hangs out with girl and her friends. Things are just fine.
Suddenly they have a huge fight and she dumps him in a fit of rage.
Boy starts having sex with her best friends. All four of them.
Bu girl does not know , in the meantime she misses ex boyfriend badly, so they reconcile.
Happily back together in love again!
They get married and BAM!
Girl finds out that boy had sex with her best friends while they were separated.
What do you think she would feel?
Retroactive jealousy?
No.
It's worse than that.
She would feel that something is wrong with boy's thinking. How could he have done that?
She would feel a deep sense of betrayal , and helplessness because he broke an unwritten moral code that he was not obligated to keep.
Should he tell her " just get over it?"
Is she insecure and jealous for feeling this way?
How would she feel about her " best friends ?"
Yes?
Another scenario.
50 - something year old Man dating divorced woman same age, things are a bit rocky.
They separate , he has sex with the 18 year old girl next door.
They reconcile , but she does not know he had sex with " little miss hottie " next door. Then she finds out......
What do you think she would feel?
Retroactive jealousy? Nah , worse.
She would feel threatened by miss hottie and she would also feel something is wrong with man's judgment.
What if he had sex with her 25 yr old daughter from her first marriage?
How should she feel?
These matters are very personal and sensitive matters and should be treated thusly.
Each person has the right to feel differently and accept or reject their partner's perceived " sexual indiscretions ."
A man who is comfortable with his wife's past sexual exploits cannot judge another man who bothered by such and vice versa.
Some men place very little value on sex and intimacy, others need to feel like they are the only one.
Some men have no problems sharing their wives with other men , other men are too jealous and " insecure " for that.

Women and men view sex differently.


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## EleGirl

CM,

The scenarios you gave are very presonal ones. They have to do with things that occur around relationships.

How do you think the guys in your scenarios would react if the women did something similar? They would react in the same way the women would. We've seen quite a few threads on TAM about a gf or wife who had sex with the guys friends or neighbor while they were 'broken up', before getting back together.

This thread is about sex life BEFORE the the relationship starts.


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## Caribbean Man

But Ele,
The same principle applies , because at the time the sex occurred , there was no relationship.
In both scenarios, the couples ended their relationship.
They reconciled and got back together, so there was no obligation , the men were not cheating.
But they did break the unwritten moral code, they crossed the line of decency in the mind of the women.
Morality and decency varies from person to person, people have different tastes ,so the onlooker cannot dictate what or how the person involved should feel.

That's why I said men and women view sex differently. 
If they didn't , the sex would become like water , necessary , but nothing special about it.


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## Goldmember357

e.p. said:


> What's with the vitrol Catherine? Hit too close to home?
> 
> I am not saying jealous men are justified but *research shows women are more likely to cheat and more likely to initiate divorce,* and while past events do not guarantee future results they sure do serve as an indicator. Do some reading on female hypergamy.
> 
> Don't try painting all men with the same brush. I haven't sowed wild oats, I haven't applauded the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, I haven't thought about having sex with random women or had an affair. In fact I was a virgin entering our marriage, whereas my wife came with "experience" ...
> 
> -e.p.


Lies

and women initiate divorce more. BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING MISTREATED, abused physically, mentally, or both and cheated on!

I deal with divorce for a living.

Everyone likes to say "ooh women are filing for divorce 75% of the time" and have this naive belief they are running off with other men. They dont know the half of it most of these divorces are the direct result of abuse or mistreatment to some degree.



darrenk1 said:


> ACTUALLY THERE ARE MEN WITH VALUES !!and its glaringly obvious you were one of these women that was at the bar with a new man everyweek! I am a man that's dealing with this and Letter me tell you its not abuse ???I was married 5 years and together 6and completely lied to about her sexual past I was told 10 its actually 25 and 18 one night stands AND NO I font thinks its ok or normal to do this man women anyone its disgusting sorry but it shows low morals ,and if your a mom then what are you doing?screw all the excuses .....low self worth bla bla bla its nasty and if your a man that's had low amount of parntners and you lived a good respected life then its ok to look for that in a women ...and we all deserve to the know THE TRUTH !!here's my opinion slits and scum bags can all go fu** all they want then date echother !! because the rest of us NORMAL people can date marry and live without being haunted ...to you I just wanna say your the twisted one to think that a hunband dissent have the right to be angry his wife screw all the guys in town
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:

People should NOT cry when they go and ignore another persons history/past. Actions speak louder than words. Its ridiculous when those who ignore all logic and their own actions attempt to down talk others who lived a more reasonable and productive life.

Sorry life is cruel and not fair. All we can do is try and advance and understand our and others development. Most people are quite frankly not capable of "true love", monogamy, let alone healthy relationships. 

I feel for you man. The reality is that monogamy is not natural and nobody understands human development or the mind. Now while i must say that monogamy is not truly in our nature in regards to our evolution its still tolerable. Basically think of it like this everything negative or positive fits into the natural world. You can complain all you want but only you can win your battles and decide your own fate.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Goldmember357 said:


> The reality is that monogamy is not natural and nobody understands human development or the mind. Now while i must say that monogamy is not truly in our nature in regards to our evolution its still tolerable.


While I agree with some of what you said I don't think that monogamy or non monogamy is " natural" for humans. The only things that come to us humans naturally is life itself and our bodily functions. Everything else is learned based on cultural influences and other environmental factors.

Monogamy takes discipline because it not natural.
Similarly , to achieve anything material in life takes discipline.
One has to attend school, apply himself ,get good grades ,, get a job, be a asset to the company receive a promotion and a salary increase. This takes years of dedication.

In the mating game , the average female has more than 10 X more opportunity to have sex than the average male. All she has to do is say " yes." The average male must first have _game_.And even if he has all the game in the world , a woman could still refuse based on a number of personal or other reasons. A man with game _would have sex with any woman_, even the skinny, teenage babysitter or the fat maid. The average woman tends to pick and choose her partners based on what she's sexually attracted to.

In the success game, the average male still has more opportunity than his female counterpart to get ahead. Not that she's lesser educated or whatever . But there is a bias towards , qualified males. Even with this bias, a lot of males sell themselves short. Because they lack the discipline it takes to succeed.
Just like monogamy takes discipline.

When a woman thinks of marriage, she's thinking of basically two things , security and family. Women abhor the prospect of poverty. That's why more females are taking matters into their own hands and educating themselves to advance their careers.
They have come to understand money = power. With money they no longer need to tolerate a husband's indescretions , and they can have sex with any man_ they _choose , she could easily take care of her offspring. She does not _need _a man.
But because of traditional biases, many women simply choose to marry successful or moderately successful males. If he's not successful, she does not want him.

When a man thinks of marriage, his # 1 concern is fidelity. Because monogamy does not come naturally and requires discipline, the only indicator he has at his disposal to forecast the future is a woman's past, though its no guarantee. That's why more couples are opting to cohabit for a few years before marriage. Its basically a " test drive" or what to expect in marriage. Men , fidelity, women security. This system is also not a guarantee of anything in the future.

A woman who uses sex as " social currency" is a very desirable woman to _all_ men. They see her firstly in terms of sex. She is experienced , she does not say no and he does not have to jump through any hoops. A prostitute uses sex as live currency and they are always in demand by men.
Therin lies the problem. When men think of marriage,they rank fidelity high . Because the average man has to work hard to have sex, even in marriage, if his wife is unfaithful , sex would become a problem, and sex is a need. There is also the issue of kids. Divorce is expensive. The only option to divorce is to remain with an unfaithful wife and become a cuckold , which means he is the laughingstock of the neighbourhood.

Some women rank fidelity highly too, but it all comes down to sex.
It is easier for a woman to get a sexual partner than for a man.
Therin lies the rub.

These things are not " natural ", but cultural. Its about survival.


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## TiggyBlue

Caribbean Man said:


> But Ele,
> The same principle applies , because at the time the sex occurred , there was no relationship.
> In both scenarios, the couples ended their relationship.
> They reconciled and got back together, so there was no obligation , the men were not cheating.
> But they did break the unwritten moral code, they crossed the line of decency in the mind of the women.
> Morality and decency varies from person to person, people have different tastes ,so the onlooker cannot dictate what or how the person involved should feel.
> 
> That's why I said men and women view sex differently.
> If they didn't , the sex would become like water , necessary , but nothing special about it.


So if the scenarios you gave were reversed and it was the woman who slept with his best friend when they split/slept with the 18 year old hottie a man wouldn't be bothered?


----------



## Caribbean Man

abitlost said:


> So if the scenarios you gave were reversed and it was the woman who slept with his best friend when they split/slept with the 18 year old hottie a man wouldn't be bothered?


Definitely!
But women tend to suffer from [ sexual ] retroactive jealousy less than men.
If they are jealous of anything in a man's past, it would be a relationship he had with a particular female she knew. Especially if the two of them were inseparable and " perfect " and their marriage leaves a lot to be desired.

Men place more emphasis on sex.
Women tend to place more emphasis on romance and emotions.

So in the above scenarios, the man thinks the sex he is having with his wife is not special because she has had lots of partners before him.

The woman will not be pissed if he simply had sex with four strange women. But because he had sex with four women, who are her best friends.
She will view it as an emotional betrayal.
Not because he had sex with an 18 yr old , but with the next door neighbour.


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## TiggyBlue

Personally that wouldn't be the case for me, the fact he would of had sex with a friend/friends would of devalued him to me, It would be my friends I would feel betrayed by.


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## ScaredandUnsure

abitlost said:


> Personally that wouldn't be the case for me, the fact he would of had sex with a friend/friends would of devalued him to me, It would be my friends I would feel betrayed by.


That! He knows they're your friends and still slept with them. I find it revolting that out of the millions of other people on earth, why would he sleep with YOUR friends? And to take it a step farther, an adult daughter? OH HELL NO! Not only would I be irate after finding out, I'd be disgusted at both of them, and any attempt to salvage the relationship would be done. His ass would be on the curb with his belongings.

It's not that he slept with someone while separated, but it's that he slept with people close to you/your child. Completely unforgivable in my humble opinion.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ScaredandUnsure said:


> *It's not that he slept with someone while separated, but it's that he slept with people close to you/your child. Completely unforgivable in my humble opinion.*


^^^^^
This right there is my point.
Men and women view these types of " indiscretions " differently.

The man was under no obligations,so he did nothing wrong. BUT, he should have considered accepted societal , moral standards before he had sex with your friends , the girl next door or your 25 yr old daughter.

So his actions come across as injudicious.
Even though he has one nothing WRONG.


----------



## TiggyBlue

I meant I would feel betrayed by my friend's, if I was with a guy who did that when we were separated I really wouldn't put any value on being with him anymore (they're a dime a dozen) so wouldn't feel very betrayed because my feelings from him would be detached. Also sex with them would be just sex nothing more.


----------



## Caribbean Man

abitlost said:


> Personally that wouldn't be the case for me, the fact he would of had sex with a friend/friends would of devalued him to me, It would be my friends I would feel betrayed by.


Well,
We are both saying the same thing.

There are cultural norms in every society. They are not binding , but necessary for the proper functioning of human, interpersonal relations.

So if a man comes from a conservative background, and his wife has a high number which is not the norm for other women around him, he would be bothered because it goes against the grain of his personal moral codes.

Just like the woman would be pissed in the example I gave , if the man had sex with her 25 yr old daughter or best friends.
He trespassed her own personal moral code.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Ok i'm a little confused, I think both gender's would be pissed if the partner slept with their (adult) kid, so moral codes there would be the same.
I don't think all men who doesn't want to be with a woman who has high number's are jealous, some don't have casual sex themselves and place a high value on number and if someones made that fact known and if they found out their partner lied/omitted about there past they would have every right to be pissed off.


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## Caribbean Man

abitlost said:


> Ok i'm a little confused, I think both gender's would be pissed if the partner slept with their (adult) kid, so moral codes there would be the same.
> I don't think all men who doesn't want to be with a woman who has high number's are jealous, some don't have casual sex themselves and place a high value on number and if someones made that fact known and if they found out their partner lied/omitted about there past they would have every right to be pissed off.


You do not sound confused to me.
What you have posted there is exactly what I'm trying to say.

A woman with a high number meets a man who is conservative and falls in love. She decides she wants this man, He too. They get married.
_She must know before hand that her past would make him feel insecure. It goes against his moral codes._

When the issue of retroactive jealousy comes up, it is her duty to help him through it. Its_ her_ past that he's dealing with.
The only common denominator is that they both love each other. If such a love exist, they can both work through it.
If she somehow feel " entitled" to her past, and thinks that her husband 
" needs to get over it " then there would always be problems in the relationship, no matter how long they have been married. He would pretend he's " over it" but it would manifest itself in other ways. For example , he might demand that she does certain sexual acts she did in the past which she is not peresently inclined to do. He might feel cheated by her vast experienc in the past and feel that he too, is entitled to have sex with more partners, enter " _threesomes and so fourth_."
The mind tends to play games.
If he truly loves her, he would accept her for who she is presently, what they have, and work on it together.

But these things can only be settled on a couple by couple basis. The dynamics of the marriage will affect the outcome, it could wind up as a power struggle.

So the usual TAM " get over it " response to such cases reeks of arrogance.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Ah I see where your coming from, sorry got my wires crossed before lol


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## Goldmember357

pastflame said:


> Jealousy is not the best word to describe the feelings in some of these cases, disappointment would be a better word!
> 
> I have issues with my wife's past and have searched for some kind of relief by reading hundreds of these types of posts, it always boils down to the same stand off.... women defending their lifestyle! so guys like us are, weak, insecure, old fashioned, then you get the guys that feed off of the promiscuous women and say guys like us are f*#ked and should just enjoy the "experience" our wife's can offer? and you get the sympathetic people that say, your wife picked you!! you are the one!! she loves you!! or she would be with one of her ex's you won her heart!! really?? to me this is all Blah, Blah, Blah! I am sure she was in love a few time before me too! all that has been shared with many already so nothing realy original there!
> 
> If, and I say If, you knew going in "ALL " about your wife's past, then no you have nothing to complain about unless! she is rubbing it in your face, bringing up stuff from her past to hurt or she is showing signs of dis trust, but if it all was revealed before hand and she is treating you with....here is a big word..."respect" then you have no grounds to torment her!
> 
> In my case I knew my wife was no virgin in the beginning, she was married before for 10years, had a son and admitted to a "couple" relationships and a "few" dates before we met!
> Before we married I asked some personal questions about her past and she said no nothing happened out of the ordinary, her and her ex husband just grew apart and had some in-law family pressures, as for her ex boyfriends nothing special just dating some last a few months but that was about it!
> 
> Unfortunately I found out over a few months period after we were married, she was lying and had a very "busy" sexual lifestyle, which also included cheating on her ex husband with a renter they had in their basement while her ex was working shift work, she had an abortion with this guy and after him came 8 or 9 more in a 4 year period "that I know of" including one nighters, clubbing, old man dating (guys much older than her) etc etc etc. when I did question some of this (not the affair or abortion) but the extra men and her motives, she will blow a fit and deny and of course, come out with the time honored....I am insecure, judgmental etc etc Blah, Blah!!
> 
> One day in the near future I will drop the bomb on all this, but for now I do love her very much, we are happy "most" of the time, she seems to be able to live with it all with no regrets (as she has told me ion the past) so I dont like think of my wife in the way I do but, it haunts me every day it hurts our sex life, even though we attribute it to my lack of performance and Cialis is the cure! I have huge lack of respect for her past and her views on it!
> 
> To the Anti people of these posts, you realy have to walk a mile in the shoes of people who are experiencing these problems before you can offer any advice, it is like telling a drug addict, alcoholic or gambler to just...STOP! well not so easy, when you love someone, commit to them, share everything but you find out they are keeping things from you...."that are important to you" it can turn your life up side down! someone on here said, dont share any of your past, someone else said your past is no ones business?? what a load of ****! seriously, think about those comments, would you want your most trusted person in the world keeping things from you? and if they have a mindset about views you feel very strongly about, do you not think these should be discussed, explained and put to rest? I also hear dont judge me!! again what does this mean? dont judge me? why not? you, me, everybody is judged on our past, our performance our attitudes every day, our entire life is judged to get where we are or what we want, apply for a job what happens?, apply for a loan what happens? go to your doctor for help what happens? our past defines us as people...good or bad.. and if someone has a problem with our past that we are close to or bonding with, we have an obligation to reveal our lifestyle and what got us where we are! keeping secrets from loved ones is a ticking time bomb! I am sure my wife never dreamed I would find out the things I know about her, but poop always rises to the top eventually (and some loose lipped in-laws, open e-mail accounts, old letters and a diary) tend to spell a chapter about one's past!
> 
> Come clean, get all the cards on the table in the first hand, dont trap people and play with their emotions, everyone seems to agree our past defines us as people and was a manual of living so, there should be nothing to hide then, you are who you are and dont judge other people that are the closest to you for not agreeing with it, everyone has the right to choice, if you dont think your lover, husband or wife can live with the knowledge! then maybe you should be with someone else? but dont make their mind up for them by thinking what is best for them!


I agree with :iagree::smthumbup:

But don't expect everyone to understand this. 

Life is not fair and its hard for many. I deal with divorce all the time and if people would only take into account their behavior and actions so many divorces could be avoided. 

Although i must say its rare that a man divorces his wife because of her past.


I would probably leave my wife if she lied to me about her past (to such a huge extent)

I cannot tolerate liars. Nobody should have to deal with a liar


----------



## lalsr1988

My position is this. Anyone that marries and THEN complains about their spouse's number of previous sexual partners is a few fries short of a happy meal. All that stuff should be worked out before marriage. Personally I would not marry a woman who has had even 1 other sexual partner in her past, but that's me and also my culture. But to get married, and then complain, is really *****y. If you don't want someone with many sexual encounters, definitely don't marry them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

lalsr1988 said:


> . But to get married, and then complain, is really *****y. *If you don't want someone with many sexual encounters, definitely don't marry them*


:iagree:
I don't understand how people get married without first discussing these things.


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## tryingtobebetter

Well my mother told me she was a virgin when she married but did not know if my father was, so presumably they never discussed it. It was a different generation (they married in 1940s) so perhaps the assumption was that unmarried people would be virgins then?


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## Goldmember357

lalsr1988 said:


> My position is this. Anyone that marries and THEN complains about their spouse's number of previous sexual partners is a few fries short of a happy meal. All that stuff should be worked out before marriage. Personally I would not marry a woman who has had even 1 other sexual partner in her past, but that's me and also my culture. But to get married, and then complain, is really *****y. If you don't want someone with many sexual encounters, definitely don't marry them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed for most part



Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> I don't understand how people get married without first discussing these things.


Yeah unless they were lied to.

If they were lied to and find out about it i would leave the person. Nobody should tolerate a liar


the mind is a powerful thing you can convince yourself that your spouse "is the only one" but its not true at all you can find someone else and be happier.


----------



## lalsr1988

Goldmember357 said:


> Agreed for most part
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah unless they were lied to.
> 
> If they were lied to and find out about it i would leave the person. Nobody should tolerate a liar
> 
> 
> the mind is a powerful thing you can convince yourself that your spouse "is the only one" but its not true at all you can find someone else and be happier.



You're absolutely right, in any strong relationship that feels like it is leading to marriage or marriage itself, one should NEVER lie about past romances and sexual encounters, since those things play an important role in picking life partners
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnnycomelately

pastflame said:


> Unfortunately I found out over a few months period after we were married, she was lying and had a very "busy" sexual lifestyle, which also included cheating on her ex husband with a renter they had in their basement while her ex was working shift work, she had an abortion with this guy and after him came 8 or 9 more in a 4 year period "that I know of" including one nighters, clubbing, old man dating (guys much older than her) etc etc etc. when I did question some of this (not the affair or abortion) but the extra men and her motives, she will blow a fit and deny and of course, come out with the time honored....I am insecure, judgmental etc etc Blah, Blah!!
> 
> One day in the near future I will drop the bomb on all this, but for now I do love her very much, we are happy "most" of the time, she seems to be able to live with it all with no regrets (as she has told me ion the past) so I dont like think of my wife in the way I do but, it haunts me every day it hurts our sex life, even though we attribute it to my lack of performance and Cialis is the cure! I have huge lack of respect for her past and her views on it!
> 
> To the Anti people of these posts, you realy have to walk a mile in the shoes of people who are experiencing these problems before you can offer any advice


There is a world of difference between 'experience' and sexual pathology. What you are talking about is a destructive pattern of behaviour and a significant deception which are affecting your relationship. That is not what most people understood when the OP said experience.


----------



## pastflame

Caribbean Man said:


> A woman who uses sex as " social currency" is a very desirable woman to _all_ men. They see her firstly in terms of sex. She is experienced , she does not say no and he does not have to jump through any hoops. A prostitute uses sex as live currency and they are always in demand by men.
> Therin lies the problem. When men think of marriage,they rank fidelity high . Because the average man has to work hard to have sex, even in marriage, if his wife is unfaithful , sex would become a problem, and sex is a need. There is also the issue of kids. Divorce is expensive. The only option to divorce is to remain with an unfaithful wife and become a cuckold , which means he is the laughingstock of the neighbourhood.
> 
> .


I agree, My wife spent many years on the "On line Dating" seen (unannounced to me how frequent until after we were married) since I was only on the dating seen a few months before we met I was very unfamiliar with on line dating and naive to it's operation! After hearing some stories from her and doing more talking to friends that have used it, I found that it was very much a acceptable and highly advertised form of socially encourage monetarily free prostitution!

As for women having 10x more opportunities to have sex, that may be true but all a man has to do is enter 4 or 5 Dating sites and work it a little and he will have no trouble at all relieving his desires on any given weekend! most men I have talked to say if you dont get sex by the second date move on, most get it 80% of the time first date, I asked my wife once why sex so fast when dating on line, her reply was competition! if you dont put out early and you are interested in a man, he has plenty of options!! so I asked what are women or were you looking for, her reply..."Mr. Right"! Hmmm it infuriated me but, at the same time I shook my head and smiled in pathetic humor!

I asked if she felt this was the best way to find Mr Right, put out easy and share everything up front, she didn't have an answer! fact is the guys got what they wanted with no effort and hence the relationship flame and honey moon stage slowly burnt out, my though is, why not make him work for it, see if he is worthy first, if he sticks around after a few weeks or couple months...maybe...just maybe he is not just after an other notch on his or your bed post?

Anyway a long winded post and a little off the track but it still falls into the "Social Currency" aspect. women have a false sense of power, control and acceptability when they play the sex card, men will play your card and call it every time, what have they got to loose? it is unfortunate we live in a very disposable society with such low expectations, we all want to live like there is no tomorrow!


----------



## southernkey

I too, have been faced with this behavior from my husband. When I shared my past with him, he begin to use it as a stepping stone to put me down, or to some how justify his his wrong behavior. It has been a constant battle, name calling, belittlement, and out right disrespect. Things get fine for a while, then when I point out something that he does, that I do not like, he some how brings it up. I had to become more secure in myself, because at first, it really wore on my self esteem. But now...I am more aware of how he is, and it does not bother me anymore. But this all too often what happens with spouses that have insecurities...


----------



## Caribbean Man

southernkey said:


> I too, have been faced with this behavior from my husband. When I shared my past with him, he begin to use it as a stepping stone to put me down, or to some how justify his his wrong behavior. It has been a constant battle, name calling, belittlement, and out right disrespect. Things get fine for a while, then when I point out something that he does, that I do not like, he some how brings it up. I had to become more secure in myself, because at first, it really wore on my self esteem. But now...I am more aware of how he is, and it does not bother me anymore. But this all too often what happens with spouses that have insecurities...


Are you saying that you guys didn't discuss it before marriage?
If you did, then how can he justify his behaviour?


----------



## pastflame

southernkey said:


> I too, have been faced with this behavior from my husband. When I shared my past with him, he begin to use it as a stepping stone to put me down, or to some how justify his his wrong behavior. It has been a constant battle, name calling, belittlement, and out right disrespect. Things get fine for a while, then when I point out something that he does, that I do not like, he some how brings it up. I had to become more secure in myself, because at first, it really wore on my self esteem. But now...I am more aware of how he is, and it does not bother me anymore. But this all too often what happens with spouses that have insecurities...


well if you guys discussed this right off the bat or at least before you married then he has some issues, other wise you both would have come to terms and been satisfied enough to marry, but if this came out of the blue after married then it may be a long road, it is one thing to learn your partner had a past that you dont like and worse if they withheld it from you but to torment and use "pay back" is not the proper way either, I am waiting the better part of three year for my wife to come clean, I know and hate her past choices and it eats at me but I will never torment her, If I haven't left by now I wont leave if she comes clean, it will make our relationship 10x better if it comes from her and she opens up and tells the truth, but I would never expect her to take belittlement and or torment from me about it, if you cant live with it, walk away!


----------



## rundown

My wife's experience was great at first. It showed, she was exceptional and that comes from experience. It wasn't an issue until she stopped having sex with me. While I make an active effort to not let it creep into my thoughts or actions, it is hard not to feel as if I have done more for her by far than anybody else and in this area I get less than many others. I don't make it an issue with her, we have too many other problems to deal with but I do feel this way every time I get rejected. It sucks.


----------



## Caribbean Man

rundown said:


> My wife's experience was great at first. It showed, she was exceptional and that comes from experience. It wasn't an issue until she stopped having sex with me. While I make an active effort to not let it creep into my thoughts or actions, it is hard not to feel as if I have done more for her by far than anybody else and in this area I get less than many others. I don't make it an issue with her, we have too many other problems to deal with but I do feel this way every time I get rejected. It sucks.


This is exactly why I said in an early post that these matters can only be adjudicated upon on a case by case basis.

You were ok at first with her sexual past , but when the sex between both of you stopped, [ which could have been for a number of reasons not necessarily connected to her past ] then the thoughts start creeping into your mind and you begin to feel cheated somewhat.

Constant sexual rejection by a wife , can cause even the most emotionally healthy male to question his desirability. He questions why is this happening to him and is he deserving of this type of treatment.
In your case , resentment sets in, partly because of slight retroactive jealousy.

Clearly , this thing called retroactive jealousy is way more complex that some are willing to admit.
And I get the feeling that this is so because it affects mostly men , and it is directly connected to a woman's sexual past.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Caribbean Man said:


> And I get the feeling that this is so because it affects mostly men , and it is directly connected to a woman's sexual past.


To me this is the crux of the matter; do you think it is immoral for a single woman to have had sex for the sake of having sex? 

I don't have a problem with that. I did it, and I am a moral, faithful person so why would my wife be any different? From what I have seen on this forum there are many men who _do_have a problem with that. To me that is hypocritical.


----------



## rundown

johnnycomelately said:


> To me this is the crux of the matter; do you think it is immoral for a single woman to have had sex for the sake of having sex?
> 
> I don't have a problem with that. I did it, and I am a moral, faithful person so why would my wife be any different? From what I have seen on this forum there are many men who _do_have a problem with that. To me that is hypocritical.


Thats the thing. My wife could have been with 100 differnt men for all I give a ****, so long as she choses to be with me. She choses not to be with me so it becomes an issue.


----------



## Caribbean Man

johnnycomelately said:


> To me this is the crux of the matter; do you think it is immoral for a single woman to have had sex for the sake of having sex?
> 
> I don't have a problem with that. I did it, and I am a moral, faithful person so why would my wife be any different? From what I have seen on this forum there are many men who _do_have a problem with that. To me that is hypocritical.


Johnny 
Both you and I know that right & wrong depends on who holds the power in any relationship.
I am not discussing morals and ethics here.
A single woman can have all the sex she wants with whomsoever she wants. Hell, some women even have sex with animals , that is their business .
Same with men.

The problem is that when some of these women decide to marry, they think their partner is not supposed to even ask much less be affected by anything in their past.
If a woman does not want to share her past, then marry a man who_ does not want to know about your past_. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Marrying a man who has a different value system you are not interested in, and then complaining about it is also hypocritical .

And yes,
Some women _do_ marry men whose value system are different when they feel its time to " settle down.." Sex is now a bore to then since they have seen and done " everything."
Love is not the main factor in them getting married. The find difficulty in connecting emotionally with any man.
Women like that are no longer interested in sex, just the security and the benefits.

This can be compared to men who resort to porn in a relationship,instead of sexual intimacy, while the wife remains sexless and frustrated.


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## youkiddingme

Call it what you want. My wifes past brought so much crap into our lives.... it's still impacting our marriage. She lied from the beginning..shared very little.... but over the years let out little clues that something from her past was still haunting her. There was clearly a wall built between me and her past....between me and the people in her past.

Over time and in a crappy way the issue that haunted her from her past was revealed...an abortion....and subsequently i learned that very little else that she had told me about he past was true. I am still pissed and it has been 10 years I got more of the trickly truth. I cannot understand why I cannot let go. It ticks me off that I was lied to from the beginning, that I was lied to all along....and now somehow I am supposed to believe her and trust her when I know she has told so many lies.

Some of you talk of these things as if it is all black and white.... I am telling you sometimes it is very very hard.


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## youkiddingme

It ticks me off to hear people say that "well, their past makes them who they are." I suppose that would be ok if their past made them better. But if their past broke them....and because you did not know the past you could never understand them or help them.... then no, I am not grateful for the past that robbed so many years from my marriage. I am not thankful for it at all. It made her act like she did not enjoy sex, made her never iniatiate sex, never touch me physically, it damaged her.


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## johnnycomelately

rundown said:


> Thats the thing. My wife could have been with 100 differnt men for all I give a ****, so long as she choses to be with me. She choses not to be with me so it becomes an issue.


I don't see how her not choosing to have sex with you changes the relevance of her past. Could you explain that?


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## Thor

youkiddingme said:


> and subsequently i learned that very little else that she had told me about he past was true. I am still pissed and it has been 10 years I got more of the trickly truth. I cannot understand why I cannot let go. It ticks me off that I was lied to from the beginning, that I was lied to all along....and now somehow I am supposed to believe her and trust her when I know she has told so many lies.


I'm dealing with exactly that issue this week. Two or three details have come to light which show yet another significant set of lies. The thing is that the data is not that different than what she told me before marriage. It may have made a difference in my decision to marry her, idk at this point 30 years later. She has told me she was worried about me leaving when she chose not to tell me other things.

Now I find this stuff. Nowhere as big as an abortion, but still pretty big to have hidden from me so that I could not make an informed decision.

It's the f'n lies which are far worse than the truth.


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## woman

My boyfriend and I have been together for three years and neither of us have asked or told.

I don't want to know and don't think it's important.

My previous boyfriend had ~100 partners before me, and the number bothered me quite a bit, but not enough for it to be a deal breaker.


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## Caribbean Man

jenny373 said:


> Her sexual past should not matter. As long as she has been faithful to you since you met and has loved you with all her heart isn't that what matters most? I have a sizable closet full of lovers and transgressions, but to date have kept my past to myself and not my man. He is happy with me and I love and adore him and only him. That should be all that matters. I dont care about his past and he should not care about mine. Isn't it unhealthy to be passave aggressive and judgemental to your wife in regard to things that happened before you even knew her? Maybe she stretched the truth to try and protect your relationship.



Jenny,
What Thor is saying is that the lies are hurting , not helping him.
She lied to protect herself ,not him.
If she wanted to protect him, she should have told the truth and give him a chance to choose her in spite of what he may have considered a colorful past.
But she selfishly took that power out of his hands by deceiving him.

It's like going to purchase a house , and the owner lies about financial encumbrances on it. He forges documents to deceive .
The owner of the house is now saddled with extra debt from the previous owner, and he has to pay it.


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## larry.gray

jenny373 said:


> Her sexual past should not matter.


Because you say it shouldn't, that makes it true?

If that's OK with your husband, then great. Just don't go justifying women lying to a man that it does matter to. If it bothers him, MOVE ON, not lie to him.

I won't argue with you having that stance - but I WILL strenuously argue that lying isn't EVER justified to your future spouse.


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## Thor

jenny373 said:


> Her sexual past should not matter. As long as she has been faithful to you since you met and has loved you with all her heart isn't that what matters most? I have a sizable closet full of lovers and transgressions, but to date have kept my past to myself and not my man. He is happy with me and I love and adore him and only him. That should be all that matters. I dont care about his past and he should not care about mine. Isn't it unhealthy to be passave aggressive and judgemental to your wife in regard to things that happened before you even knew her? Maybe she stretched the truth to try and protect your relationship.


Carribean Man has a good response which I will add to.

I don't know she's been sexually faithful. I do know her lies and deceptions from the beginning feel to me like infidelities to her vows, and several things during the marriage are likewise violations to the vows. So when I discover things going back to our dating days which were lies it just compounds the problem.

First, it triggers me. Like the trickle truth resets a betrayed spouse back to D-Day. All the months of feeling like the honesty problems are behind us, and then it is erased by finding another long term lie.

Secondly, it reinforces the belief she is not worthy of future trust. If I have doubts about her sexual fidelity, how do I learn to believe her denial if I continue to find out about other lies? How do I believe she is telling me the truth now about anything if everything has been based on lies from the beginning?

Yes she has said quite directly she was trying to protect the relationship when she lied and hid some very big things. She does not apologize for it. Now as I put other pieces together and know that there were other lies about her sexual history it seems to be a pattern.

So perhaps that pattern is continuing. She is lying about extramarital affairs in order to prevent divorce. It is a helluva bind though because if she is telling the truth in her denials of an affair how does she prove it?

If she had been fully honest from the beginning I would not be doubting what she says today.


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## DjangoJr

Catherine602 said:


> It upsets me so much. One poster was married for 20 years, had children and a wife who was exemplary. He began to have problems and practically tortured his good wife because of his problem. I think women react as if the man is being reasonable and allow themselves to abused.
> 
> It is better to consider that their husband is mentally ill and tell him to get help. Set boundaries if he refuses to get help consider divorce . Has to treated like any other abusive relationship.
> 
> I really don't understand how a man who claims to love his partner can torture her? The judgement heaped on women is astounding to me. Both from the OP and men who pipe in about "values". I'll bet these guys with "values" look at porn, make comments to women in the street, talk about sex with women with the buddies.
> 
> I mean, folks want what they want. That type of symmetry rarely exists in relationships. If someone wants a woman without a bunch of sexual experience, I wouldn't fault them for that. Anymore than an out of shape person would like a fit person, or a poor person wants someone with money...Preferences are just that. I agree, don't marry someone who doesn't fit the mold. But we don't always enter relationships as open as we should. Hell folks find out about whole marriages and families years into a relationship. So I wouldn't be shocked to find that the true details of one's sexual past comes out later.
> 
> 
> There are the same guys who watch porn, have sowed their wild oats, applaud the married guy who is poking the cute secretary, think about having sex with random women or are having an affair or would if they could get away with it. I wonder where their "values" are? Ahh but these are just things that men do so it's OK. Doesn't mean they don't love their wives, doesn't make them bad men.
> 
> Just being fair, perfection is not a virtue. We all have vices and areas we fall short, especially to one another as men and women. But I still think folks are generally well intentioned, but its human nature to want to eat your cake and have it.... its a battle we all struggle with. Notion of "values" aside. It's also human nature to expect more of others than we expect of ourselves.
> 
> 
> It seems that the value guys think men are inherently good and entitled to sexual expression any way they want and what ever they do does not effect their basic goodness. Besides it's the testosterone, seed spreading instincts that naturally can not be controlled. I think that humans by nature are inherently well intentioned. And biologically yes, men have to control their "seed spreading" instincts. Some have more discipline than others. I think were we fall short is that we refused to understand and accept one another fully. We like to characterize someone by a few actions in a certain space and time and view it as the whole person versus part of them. It's not fair, its how people operate. And make their judgement calls
> 
> Women on the other hand are evil temptress who need to be controlled by the value guys so that they have access when ever they want.
> 
> I think it is a remnant of bygone days when women were expected to be virgins while men weeded around. This BS will fade away when the men who came of age in repressive times are no longer exerting any influence. Men coming of age today just like men adapted to women voting, having careers, using birth control and being in positions of power.
> 
> I'd advise women not to divulge details about their sex lives. I don't understand why women do that. If the man insist on knowing drop him too much trouble. That will avoid many of these problems. That and avoiding sexually insecure men.
> 
> I think that folks have a right to know the honest truth about someone's past. Been to jail? Employment history? Family Life? Kids? Traveled? Health Issues? but draw the line at the sexual body count lol? There are a lot of men who don't really care, just gotta find those that don't. But I'm not going to knock those that do, men or women, really...
> I work in public health, sharing of information between partners is killing whole communities. And honestly it's the women that are really losing.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think you have a bit of resentment because of the power disparity between men and women. Which is not unreasonable, but I think the stance of "Men bad" is not really a productive one. 

As the culture shifts, a lot of young men are very confused about their identity as men. What does it mean to be a man, what is positive masculinity etc? Thanks to the feminist movement, women have taken very good ownership of their identity. Men have not had an analogous movement like that. No real reference point

My mother and I chatted about this a few years ago.. "If women wanted to change something, if they unify it will change within a generation. Women are complaining about the men they ****ed and ended up raising." 

(my mom curses like a sailor lol)


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## janefw

> One day in the near future I will drop the bomb on all this, but for now I do love her very much, we are happy "most" of the time, she seems to be able to live with it all with no regrets (as she has told me ion the past) so I dont like think of my wife in the way I do but, it haunts me every day it hurts our sex life, even though we attribute it to my lack of performance and Cialis is the cure! I have huge lack of respect for her past and her views on it!


What do you mean about "dropping a bomb on all this" some time in the future?


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## DjangoJr

jenny373 said:


> Her sexual past should not matter. As long as she has been faithful to you since you met and has loved you with all her heart isn't that what matters most? I have a sizable closet full of lovers and transgressions, but to date have kept my past to myself and not my man. He is happy with me and I love and adore him and only him. That should be all that matters. I dont care about his past and he should not care about mine. Isn't it unhealthy to be passave aggressive and judgemental to your wife in regard to things that happened before you even knew her? Maybe she stretched the truth to try and protect your relationship.




unfortunately the past matters, its all we have to go on...

This is where I disagree with most folks. 
If you want someone with a certain degree cool
you want someone with a certain number of sexual partners cool
you want someone who makes a certain amount cool.
You want someone a certain height, cool.
Certain religion, cool. etc

folks have a right to their preferences, the problem is folks take people's preferences personally. Also people talk out of both side of their mouth on the "You have to be what you preference" sort of thing... because the best relationships are complementary.


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## DjangoJr

It's amazing how unrealistically men and women are about one another....It's even more amazing that their expect the other to accept that unrealistic view lol


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## pastflame

I have a couple friends that were from both sides of this coin, each 180deg apart in their thinking.
both had wives on their second marriage, both of the wives had a fulfilled promiscuous lifestyle before meeting my friends and getting married to them.
My first friend did not care about his wife's past, even though he found out she had lied to him on several occasions, she had a child and gave it up for adoption, she said since it was no longer in her life she had to forget about it since she gave it up the ties to the child and moved on, when he questioned she told him it was her past it should stay their and realy not his concern, well she took good care of him and he said the past is the past so he just moved on ignoring the past. My second friend took his findings of his wife's lies very opposite, it chewed him up and he found the lies hard to accept, his wife said the same thing the past is the past, it hurt me not you and it is non of your business, the lies were to protect both of us!.
Well fast forwarding to today a few years later, friend #1 lost his wife to an office worker that she had been having an affair with for two years behind my friends back, her reason, my friend was not a strong person and just let me walk all over him like he didn't care!!... friend #2 lost his wife when she could no longer deal with his jealousy and depression, she left him to start a new life!

So damned if you do, damned if you dont in these cases, friend one ignored the signs of his wife being a repeat offender and obviously a compulsive liar! friend #2 recognised is wife's lying and called her on it, but the two of them could not work it out, he could not live with it and did not let her forget about it pushing her away!

People say that this should not matter, we should not judge! the past is the past who cares life is now, I did what I did to protect me and to protect you! take me for who I am today, I learned from my mistakes dont presume anything! 
These are true statements and are a good line of defence if you are defending yourself from people accusing. 

But lying is still lying and if caught, no matter how many good Mississippi Lawyer phrases we use, the bottom line is lying promotes dis trust, this is time honored fact.
No matter if it is the police or judge dealing with any kind of law infraction of questioning, if they find out you have told a lie you have automatically discredited yourself in their eyes, same if you lie about tax's, on a work application or to your mom or dad about who broke the window...a liar is still some who can not be trusted and depending on the lie and who it is to, a lie can be devastating to a relationship, no matter if it happened yesterday or ten years ago, if you are caught in a serious lie time does not have any years served penance, you start from day one again!

I am still dealing with my wife's lies, some of the more serious ones we have not even crossed that road yet as she has no idea I am aware of them, since I dont make a huge deal and rub in her face about the ones we both know. I am sure she feels that it is now water under the bridge, she has no idea how much it eats at me and how I wake up most days and it is the first thing that pops into my head, there are so many triggers that put them there.
Women will say, if you are letting these things bother you and up set you becuse of all the men I have had before you etc etc, you must be so insecure!
well you know that is true, and who put that insecurity there? a liar maybe? we all have insecurities, some have more on the surface, some have them a little further down, if you love someone and give them everything, you now open up to them and hence you make yourself more vulnerable, when you wake up one day and find out the person you are with is not exactly the person you thought to had, they lied to you and deceived, then rubbed it in your face by telling you, you are the weak one and the judgemental one! yes of course this can make you insecure, you bet!!!


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## pastflame

janefw said:


> What do you mean about "dropping a bomb on all this" some time in the future?



Well nothing violent if you are referring to the "choice" of words?
my meaning is, if my wife cant come clean on her own after giving her ample time (years) to get comfortable with us and open up!

Then I will initiate the conversation and reveal her lies, my point is better it comes from her first, than me having to.


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## janefw

pastflame said:


> Well nothing violent if you are referring to the "choice" of words?
> my meaning is, if my wife cant come clean on her own after giving her ample time (years) to get comfortable with us and open up!
> 
> Then I will initiate the conversation and reveal her lies, my point is better it comes from her first, than me having to.


So, you are going to wait until some unspecified time in the future, and then drop a bomb on her of all the things you have garnered about her past? That's not exactly going to be a healing event, is it?


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## TiggyBlue

janefw said:


> So, you are going to wait until some unspecified time in the future, and then drop a bomb on her of all the things you have garnered about her past? That's not exactly going to be a healing event, is it?


Might be what he needs to do to start the healing process.


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## pastflame

abitlost said:


> Might be what he needs to do to start the healing process.



It is exactly what will start a healing process, Far, far better if she comes clean and starts the conversation, that is what I am waiting for BUT, I am not holding my breath nor will I wait forever, she has lived with it for 10 years now and deceived other men in relationships along the way I am sure (or maybe she told them and thats why they are not around anymore?) if that was the case maybe honesty up front would have kept them, regardless!

but to more clear and specific, no I will not direct my conversation at everything, many things have been discussed already, but the major lies about affair and abortion will be the focus. how many ****s she had before me realy dont matter anymore at this point, lie about one might as well be 30 sex is just sex after all seems to be only as serious as a hand shake so senseless for be to bring all that up, but lying about cheating on you first husband and getting an abortion with the guy you left you husband for then dump him all with in a little over a year, ya that lie needs some talking about for sure.


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## Jasel

Why does it seem like it's fine for women to have insecurities when it comes to their bodies, sex, and relationships and get sympathy for it but when it comes to insecurities of men over the same subjects they get bashed and shamed for having insecurities to begin with?


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## pastflame

Jasel said:


> Why does it seem like it's fine for women to have insecurities when it comes to their bodies, sex, and relationships and get sympathy for it but when it comes to insecurities of men over the same subjects they get bashed and shamed for having insecurities to begin with?


Good point @ Jasel, In my generation the cry was for equality among the sex's, today's men seemingly have to pay for actions of men from the day women were dragged from cave to cave by their hair, through Henry the 8th and Archie Bunker! If a man has an affair or sleeps around allot they are "pigs" if a woman does it they are just looking for equality??... So if men jump off a bridge, do women say good riddance or, do they follow?

Nothing has really changed, men will gather at card games and talk about the women they slept with, women will gather at wine and cheese parties and talk about the men they slept with, the sex's equality has been around for 100's of years no surprises there, if a man cheats on his wife! there is a woman at the other end, if a man sleeps around! there is a woman at the other end, it takes two in the definition. 

To @ Jasel point on insecurities! nothing has changed, if someone gets bashed for worrying about such things and calling people on it, the one's that defend it like there is no tomorrow are the insecure one's! if what you think you did is acceptable why on earth would you get so defensive and confrontational at its question?


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## FLman

pastflame said:


> Good point @ Jasel, In my generation the cry was for equality among the sex's, today's men seemingly have to pay for actions of men from the day women were dragged from cave to cave by their hair, through Henry the 8th and Archie Bunker! If a man has an affair or sleeps around allot they are "pigs" if a woman does it they are just looking for equality??... So if men jump off a bridge, do women say good riddance or, do they follow?
> 
> Nothing has really changed, men will gather at card games and talk about the women they slept with, women will gather at wine and cheese parties and talk about the men they slept with, the sex's equality has been around for 100's of years no surprises there, if a man cheats on his wife! there is a woman at the other end, if a man sleeps around! there is a woman at the other end, it takes two in the definition.
> 
> To @ Jasel point on insecurities! nothing has changed, if someone gets bashed for worrying about such things and calling people on it, the one's that defend it like there is no tomorrow are the insecure one's! if what you think you did is acceptable why on earth would you get so defensive and confrontational at its question?


This all boils down to trust and honesty, we all have standards, allowance and expectations, its rare for someone to meet and exceed someones (spouses) expectations everyday all the time year after year, however if you fall in love and marry a trash (man or woman) then I doubt things would get better, its amazing that some young people can judge better their actions than some grownups, so hate to say it but if one falls in love with physical and sexual attributes then you have to deal with the whole package...I think how a person conducts themselves before they meet you tells quite a lot about themselves, at a very young age we know about love and how it should be (books, parents, others, movies etc)...that is the norm, you like someone, fall in love and physical love is the natural progression, now when we are younger we might feel these and experiment, but there are many women that are not comfortable with being casual, some are but they are using their sexuality to seek out whatever attention they are looking for...I have a high drive, but I always loved the feeling of being wanted emotionally and intellectually, most want that feeling to last, but if both women and men seek out the casual side of things without good intention, later in life things will hunt them...I think if someone's heart is crushed by lies, deceptions and actions, its time to move on, there just too many good people out there too, no need to suffer, the problem the nicer guys that fall for certain types of women are in high heaven in the beginning due to physical attributes but later they find themselves unfulfilled...you can't judge a person by their cover, but you sure can tell about their actions and behavior!


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## rubpy3

I think the whole issue boils down if the husband feels he is getting a fair share out of the wife's past experience. A marriage is a sexual relationship at its heart, and mutual sexual gratification is to a marriage as a keel to a ship.

I want my W to desire me - to want to give me the best f* of my life every single night. Pure and simple. If my W were a porn star, then she better **** me like a porn star. That is her past, that's her expertise, and I expect to benefit from her personal expertise. However, if I married a porn star and she lies there in bed like a dead fish only once a night and complaints about headache rest of the time, I will have a major problem with it. It will bring out doubt about myself, about my manhood, and my capability as a lover.

To all ladies who say, "even though she had 100 men before you, she choose to be with you, so be happy". I call that a bull**** argument. She could choose to be with me for different reasons, like she choose me for money, she choose me for a good health insurance, because I'm good with her kids from past relationships, etc. I'll be honest, I choose a wife because I want to bang her next 20 years. If she had 100 men before marrying and still choose to give the H mind blowing sex every night, few men would complaint. But if she takes the benefits of marriage and refuses to give the H what she gave so freely before, than it's clear that we have a major marital problem.


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## FLman

rubpy3 said:


> I think the whole issue boils down if the husband feels he is getting a fair share out of the wife's past experience. A marriage is a sexual relationship at its heart, and mutual sexual gratification is to a marriage as a keel to a ship.
> 
> I want my W to desire me - to want to give me the best f* of my life every single night. Pure and simple. If my W were a porn star, then she better **** me like a porn star. That is her past, that's her expertise, and I expect to benefit from her personal expertise. However, if I married a porn star and she lies there in bed like a dead fish only once a night and complaints about headache rest of the time, I will have a major problem with it. It will bring out doubt about myself, about my manhood, and my capability as a lover.
> 
> To all ladies who say, "even though she had 100 men before you, she choose to be with you, so be happy". I call that a bull**** argument. She could choose to be with me for different reasons, like she choose me for money, she choose me for a good health insurance, because I'm good with her kids from past relationships, etc. I'll be honest, I choose a wife because I want to bang her next 20 years. If she had 100 men before marrying and still choose to give the H mind blowing sex every night, few men would complaint. But if she takes the benefits of marriage and refuses to give the H what she gave so freely before, than it's clear that we have a major marital problem.


I think when you are dealing with a woman or a man with huge amount of baggage (history, experience, "open minded", regrets or what have you) you are dealing with someone who has forfeited the coessential laws of seeking, falling and being in "love"! 
Hot time in bed does not equate to good relationship or marriage, I think if you are still in love and care for each other the attraction and the physical desire will grow and can be sustained! Love and respect do and can exist, and as a very charged sexual person I personally would not dedicate my efforts and time to a person who has a bag of tricks in bed to only keep us satisfied! There is more to life than that!
If women or men put less emphasis on physical compatibility, I can bet that physical part of a relationship will blossom with the right partner, the trick is to have enough sense to sift through and find the most compatible person for you. I think that people that move from one partner to the next have a pretty low self-esteem and I can bet that particular person with certain type of risky behaviors will not settle with the same type of person in later life, I would guess they would feel insecure themselves!


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## famethrowa

roamingmind said:


> I understand it's difficult feeling, but I am deeply saddened by the husbands/fiancees' who claim their " profound love " yet couldn't stop punishing their wives/fiancees for their honesty and the unchangeable past, questioning their morales ,values despite the fact the wives/fiancees have " done nothing but love me" .
> 
> I am not here to criticize their feelings are wrong; but what they are doing is very insulting and hurtful to the ones they claim to love deeply.
> 
> Retroactive Jealousy -- if you haven't already looked it up-- hope the information will help.
> 
> Retroactive-jealousy.com
> 
> 10 Ways to Deal With Your Partner’s Sexual Past (Because You Have To)
> 
> Guidelines for dealing with (retroactive) jealousy - Conscious Loving Relationship Advice Forum & Community


Here's another great site! 

How To Stop Being Jealous Of Your Partner’s Past In 12 Steps


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## DoF

I used to be a complete idiot and have issues with my wife's past.

Then I got a clue.......

It's completely irrelevant and worthless. Unfortunately by that time, it was too late as she already shared the events (which I would rather not know about).


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## weightlifter

Zomie thread alert


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## Coffee Amore

Closing this very dead discussion.


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