# Had a VERY rude waitress last night.



## DanaS

Sorry, but after last night I am still very upset! So after Cadance was born my husband and I haven't really had a date night, so we planned for last night and got there around 8. So we go in, hostess sits us as our booth and then a few minutes later the waitress from hell comes up and looks at me and our infant daughter, then looks at my husband and says "Oh, taking your mother out for dinner? How nice!" at which point my husband corrects her and says "Oh, that's my wife and daughter". 

Now I certainly understand how that distinction could be made, it wasn't this that she did that bothered me, it was right after my husband clarified her demeanor totally changed. She started acting cold towards me but was nice to my husband, even sat down right next to him while taking our order! Now this girl is I'd say about my older daughters age; so mid 20s. Not only that but she would come, ask my husband if he needed a refill but not me. 

But the WORST part, while we were waiting for our food Cadance started crying and I knew she was hungry and I breast feed but do so discreetly, and the restaurant we were at was fairly empty, probably less than half of its tables/booths were full. Anyway, I am just sitting there talking to my husband and breast feeding my daughter when the waitress walks up, looks at me and says "Excuse me, but could you do that elsewhere, there's a baby station in the bathroom". 

I looked at her and gave her the riot act. I didn't yell or scream but I let her know she has no right to ask me to do something like that and she was very rude. My husband pretty much just sat there and listened. It just really upset me, I have a daughter this girls age and she's trying to tell me where to breast feed? On top of her acting lousy towards me when I need a refill or have a question. 

I actually told my husband not to even bother leaving a tip, something I very rarely do but he ended up giving her a $10 anyway, saying she still served us and deserves a tip. I disagreed but it is what it is. 

Before we left I did talk to the manager about her behavior, he apologized and gave some coupons. 

Sorry if this is too long, just wanted so much to have a nice dinner date and the ***** waitress girl just HAD to ruin it!


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## jld

Your husband seems like a really nice person. I bet you are glad to have such a gentle, loving, understanding man in your life.


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## Somanylemons

Wow, I read this totally differently from you JLD.

I would have been really hurt if my husband had behaved the way DanaS's husband behaved. He watched and did nothing as a women treated his wife and child appallingly and then financially rewarded her against his wife's wishes?

Sorry you got such horrible treatment DanaS.


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## tenac

Of course your husband tipped her. He would probably describe her as one of the best waitresses he ever had.


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## jld

I am sure they will not go back. And he showed a lot of grace to a stranger who is unlikely to change, anyway. And may end up losing her job, not that it would not be deserved.

What would you have had him do?


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## DanaS

I did ask him why he didn't say anything and he said "Well, it was a verbal fight between girls, and you looked like you had it under control". 

As for the tipping, he says he always tips even if it's bad.

I really don't get what this girls problem was, she definitely didn't seem to care for me or my daughter.


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## DanaS

jld said:


> I am sure they will not go back. And he showed a lot of grace to a stranger who is unlikely to change, anyway. And may end up losing her job, not that it would not be deserved.
> 
> What would you have had him do?


We probably won't go back, and the more I think about it perhaps I shouldn't feel that upset about him not really saying anything, I could see how he would find it best to stay out of it.

I definitely would not feel bad about this girl losing her job, she obviously has some issues.


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## Somanylemons

jld said:


> I am sure they will not go back. And he showed a lot of grace to a stranger who is unlikely to change, anyway. And may end up losing her job, not that it would not be deserved.
> 
> What would you have had him do?


I would have expected him at the very least to give her the cold shoulder. 

He absolutely should not have given her a tip when his wife expressly said she didn't want him to. 

To me being graceful would have involved being polite but cold to the waitress. 

I think by giving the waitress a tip he showed no grace to his wife.


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## jld

Somanylemons said:


> I would have expected him at the very least to give her the cold shoulder.
> 
> He absolutely should not have given her a tip when his wife expressly said she didn't want him to.
> 
> To me being graceful would have involved being polite but cold to the waitress.
> 
> I think by giving the waitress a tip he showed no grace to his wife.


Yes, he could have spoken up. I bet Dana would have appreciated that. It sounds like he did not feel comfortable doing that, or did not want to escalate tension. And maybe he just expects something like that because of the age difference and does not take it personally.

Honestly, a little humor could probably have gone a long way towards relaxing the waitress and making her rethink her treatment of Dana. Some people are really good at that.


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## weightlifter

Ive never stiffed a waitress. I once left a penny tho. Waitress showed up. 20 mins for water. 20 mins to take order. By the time she got the food out, it was cold. I could see other wait staff watching their areas. No. It was not crowded. Dont think Ive done under 10 percent for any other experience.

Apparently was not her first time. Manager rolled her eyes about that waitress, muttered something like "not the first", and apologized.

BTW. We are programmed to protect you from other males. Getting between women fighting is a sure way for him to lose.


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## jld

weightlifter said:


> BTW. We are programmed to protect you from other males. Getting between women fighting is a sure way for him to lose.


Interesting. Could you elaborate, please?


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## SecondTime'Round

Is there any chance she knew him and had dated him at some point in the past???

VERY rude behavior, and while your H is right that you were handling it correctly, he still should have stepped in.

And, you should have said, "yes, I'll go to the bathroom and give my daughter her meal when you take your break and have your meal. We'll meet in the bathroom for that, ok? Get to know each other?"


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## tenac

weightlifter said:


> Ive never stiffed a waitress. I once left a penny tho.


I think that qualifies as stiffing.


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## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> I did ask him why he didn't say anything and he said "Well, it was a verbal fight between girls, and you looked like you had it under control".
> 
> As for the tipping, he says he always tips even if it's bad.
> 
> I really don't get what this girls problem was, she definitely didn't seem to care for me or my daughter.


Saying that it's a verbal fight between girls is a way to dismiss what happened. 

I think that morally he we right to tip her. You two used her time/service so a tip is owed. If you were upset enough to not want to tip her, you both should have either left or asked for someone else.


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## EleGirl

weightlifter said:


> BTW. We are programmed to protect you from other males. Getting between women fighting is a sure way for him to lose.


After all that the waitress sat down next to her husband to take the order. That is where he could have definitely done something. He could have told her "NO', when she started to sit down.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> I am sure they will not go back. And he showed a lot of grace to a stranger who is unlikely to change, anyway. And may end up losing her job, not that it would not be deserved.
> 
> What would you have had him do?


He should have told the waitress not to sit next him to take the order.

The waitress was playing up to her husband and he allowed it. Actually he participated in it by letting her sit next to him.


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> He should have told the waitress not to sit next him to take the order.
> 
> The waitress was playing up to her husband and he allowed it. Actually he participated in it by letting her sit next to him.


He seems kind of shy and meek. Maybe he knew that since he was not interested in her anyway, he did not want to make a scene?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I'll always cut someone slack on being kind. If he wasn't playing along with her, but just didn't want to create a scene, and if he gave a tip because he knows how badly waitresses are paid, then I'd let it go.

Much better to be with someone who is too kind and forgiving than the opposite.


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## EleGirl

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I'll always cut someone slack on being kind. If he wasn't playing along with her, but just didn't want to create a scene, and if he gave a tip because he knows how badly waitresses are paid, then I'd let it go.
> 
> Much better to be with someone who is too kind and forgiving than the opposite.


If you were at a restaurant and some hunk of a waiter insulted you, then sat down next to your wife and flirted to take the order, how would you feel about that?


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## SimplyAmorous

> *JLD said*: *Honestly, a little humor could probably have gone a long way towards relaxing the waitress and making her rethink her treatment of Dana. Some people are really good at that.*


 I like this.. yes, I think this would have been the best way to handle.. in hindsight..

Imagining this. I don't think my husband would have did anything either.. he'd just sit back & watch the flame throwing.. he wouldn't say NO to her sitting there either....can't see that.. 

Never had anything like this ever happen though, where a waitress showed favor... where a night was ruined... 



> *richardsharpe said* : Good evening
> I'll always cut someone slack on being kind. If he wasn't playing along with her, but just didn't want to create a scene, and if he gave a tip because he knows how badly waitresses are paid, then I'd let it go.
> 
> *Much better to be with someone who is too kind and forgiving than the opposite.*


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## phillybeffandswiss

tenac said:


> I think that qualifies as stiffing.


No, that is old school tipping etiquette.


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## coffee4me

EleGirl said:


> I think that morally he we right to tip her. You two used her time/service so a tip is owed. If you were upset enough to not want to tip her, you both should have either left or asked for someone else.


In my state waitresses get paid minimum wage just like many other customer service employees who don't get tips. I don't feel morally obligated to tip them if they did not provide decent service. They are already being paid for the miserable service they provided.


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## bbdad

Sorry, but I would have politely asked for another server. If she got ignorant after that, we would have just left. We may not always get along, but no one gets to disrespect my wife like that.


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## DanaS

Thanks for all your thoughts. I wonder why as soon as she saw that we were married her attitude instantly changed and she went out of her way to be rude to me. 

I do intend to talk to my husband more about it when he gets home from work. You'd think a waitress of all would understand how ridiculous it is to expect a nursing mother to go to the bathroom.


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## kokonatsu

I don't think my husband would make a big deal out of it either. But I would have wished that he said something as well, if I were in your shoes, DanaS. 

As for tipping.. I rarely tip, and Elegirl, you can't say tipping is "morally right", as it's not even a thing in some cultures.. I would have been really upset if he had tipped her, as it looks like rewarding her for bad behaviour. She's working and needs to respect ALL of her customers, not just the cute ones.


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## EleGirl

coffee4me said:


> In my state waitresses get paid minimum wage just like many other customer service employees who don't get tips. I don't feel morally obligated to tip them if they did not provide decent service. They are already being paid for the miserable service they provided.


If that's the case in your state, then I agree. Tips would be on merit.

In some states there is a minimum wage for weight staff, but it's afar below the normal minimum wage.


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## sisters359

Never hesitate to call someone out on their bad behavior--with humor, if that's your style, or without, if it's not--if that behavior distresses you. Remember your child--any daughters you have--will look to you to see how to behave. Don't you want them to be able and willing to stand up for themselves? You stood up for your baby--now do it for yourself! I'm glad you told the manager and who cares if she loses her job--totally inappropriate behavior! 

I breastfed everywhere--including a job interview (it was lunch between sessions of interview panels, but the "boss" was with me). And yes, I got the job--left to try something new after 10 years! That was 25 years ago and I am stunned to think that anyone, today, thinks breastfeeding should take place anywhere besides exactly where mom is when baby gets hungry. Americans are sooooooo screwed up about the female body! (I'm an American, but I really don't fit in sometimes!)

Your h was clearly enjoying the attention--and he was right not to step in. A woman gets no respect from another woman if she doesn't defend her own.


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## EleGirl

kokonatsu said:


> I don't think my husband would make a big deal out of it either. But I would have wished that he said something as well, if I were in your shoes, DanaS.
> 
> As for tipping.. I rarely tip, and Elegirl, you can't say tipping is "morally right", as it's not even a thing in some cultures.. I would have been really upset if he had tipped her, as it looks like rewarding her for bad behaviour. She's working and needs to respect ALL of her customers, not just the cute ones.



We are not talking about some cultures here. The norm in the USA is that wait staff make most of their income off of tips. In some states the minimum wage for wait staff is $2.18 pre hour. Using someone's services and not paying for the services you used is a form of theft. Theft if immoral.

Yes she does need to respect all her customers. That's why when she acted like that they should have either left or asked for a new waiter/waitress.


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## EleGirl

Also on the tipping/not-tipping. OP's husband was complicit in that he allowed the waitress to with next to him. that' is a form of flirting.


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## SimplyAmorous

After I posted I asked my husband to see if I pegged him right.. he agreed it was very disrespectful and he WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED it if I was treated like that, he may have walked out.. at first he felt the story didn't add up , her sitting down beside him.. I said ....well maybe there was a chair closer to him or something..

He turned it around saying....if a MAN (Waiter) did that to me...ignoring him, chummying too close to the wife ..how this , too, would be disrespectful...

As far as tipping.. if a waitress is overly rude & it ruins a couple's night...No, he doesn't feel an obligation ...but said "better not pay with a credit card!"...


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## WorkingWife

I am really sorry you were subjected to that. She sat down beside your husband? Seriously? WTH? I understand him doing nothing at that point because, like I said, WTH? -- but to leave her $10 after she insulted you and you said you did not want to leave a tip which is uncharacteristic for you? Yuck. 

Do you have any reason to believe that your husband was also bothered by the breast feeding in public and didn't want to say anything to you? Or maybe another patron complained? When you say "discreetly" - were you covered? I'm trying to understand why your husband not only found that treatment of you tolerable, but actually rewarded it. The coldness could possibly (though not likely) have been your imagination. But her sitting down by him? And saying something about your breast feeding? MEOW. Sorry! (BTW, she sounds pathetic and desperate, if it's any consolation.)


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## WorkingWife

I would have him NOT reward a person who insulted and offended me by voluntarily giving her $10 of our money against my wishes.


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## flyer

I like taking my 20 yo daughter to restaurants and having young boys waiting on, or serving us. 
I seem to get the BEST treatment you could ever ask for.:grin2:


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## Holland

EleGirl said:


> We are not talking about some cultures here. *The norm in the USA is that wait staff make most of their income off of tips. In some states the minimum wage for wait staff is $2.18 pre hour. Using someone's services and not paying for the services you used is a form of theft. Theft if immoral.*
> 
> Yes she does need to respect all her customers. That's why when she acted like that they should have either left or asked for a new waiter/waitress.


:surprise: $2.18 per hour and the customers are expected to pay for their meals PLUS the staff wages. Sorry but from down here it sounds like the employers are the ones stealing from the staff.

As for the OP, serious rude on behalf of the waitress and your husband. I would not have given a tip, made a complaint against her to the manager and told your husband to be more respectful to you.


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## LonelyinLove

The tip-O-meter starts the moment we are seated. If the service is great, so is the tip. If the service is bad, so is the tip.


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## SimplyAmorous

flyer said:


> *I like taking my 20 yo daughter to restaurants and having young boys waiting on, or serving us.
> I seem to get the BEST treatment you could ever ask for*.:grin2:


The BEST / most memorable service we Ever had was from *a Waiter*.. our kids were so impressed with this Guy.. his attitude, humor, friendliness.... when we were leaving the Resort. ..our 3rd son wrote a thank you to the resort in their book.. like a paragraph long saying it was the best vacation ever...and he praised this Waiter by name, speaking how they should be proud of their employees... 

We are going back there next week.. I know all the kids will be looking for " *DAN the MAN*"... I made a copy of his letter.. if we see him... I am going to hand him what son wrote of him .... It was the biggest tip we ever left in our lives.. to that guy... they spoke of him , laughing, how cool he was -a # of times after that meal..


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## NobodySpecial

Why would someone have to stick up for someone else? I would think anyone can and should handle their own stuff. She was mad. She spoke. Done.


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## Satya

It's the Summer and I always assume that the wait staff is going to be under-trained and more eager to be at the beach then serving anyone. 

No excuses, it's just what I am seeing currently at the favorite local spot. There's a Maitre D' that really cracks the whip normally, but when he's off its like the wait staff start swinging from chandeliers...


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## chillymorn

As a young man I was all about getting my pound of flesh. If you cut me off on the road, If you said something I didn't like, if I got poor service, etc etc etc. I would be all in your face maybe even get in a fight over it.

As I aged and matured I came to realize that everybody is fighting there own battles in life. not everybody is brought up to be tolerant to others some are even stunted to the degree of maybe never coming to the realization of....... in the big scheme of thing most of this doesn't make a hill of beans difference in how happy you are in life.

I'm not saying to be a push over and let people take advantage of you. But to pick and choose what sets you off and how angry to be and what actions to take. 


when someone cut in front of me on the road I just think they must be in a hurry. glad I was aware enough that it didn't cause an accident. as a matter of fact anytime where something like this happens I take the stance that this person might be fighting some sort of battle in their personal life that made the act the way they did.

maybe their mom was just diagnosed with cancer maybe their child just got in trouble in school maybe fill in the blank with whatever .....

maybe their just an a$$holes and can't help it. I have on many occasions pulled someone like this aside and after tipping them a decent tip said I hope whatever is bothering you to make you act so angry gets resolved. 

I find that I'm a much happier person just letting these things slide than wasting energy on being pi$$ed about it. 

wish it didn't take me soooo long to figure this out. as I'm a much happier person now than I was years ago even when thing aren't going my way. 










DanaS said:


> Sorry, but after last night I am still very upset! So after Cadance was born my husband and I haven't really had a date night, so we planned for last night and got there around 8. So we go in, hostess sits us as our booth and then a few minutes later the waitress from hell comes up and looks at me and our infant daughter, then looks at my husband and says "Oh, taking your mother out for dinner? How nice!" at which point my husband corrects her and says "Oh, that's my wife and daughter".
> 
> Now I certainly understand how that distinction could be made, it wasn't this that she did that bothered me, it was right after my husband clarified her demeanor totally changed. She started acting cold towards me but was nice to my husband, even sat down right next to him while taking our order! Now this girl is I'd say about my older daughters age; so mid 20s. Not only that but she would come, ask my husband if he needed a refill but not me.
> 
> But the WORST part, while we were waiting for our food Cadance started crying and I knew she was hungry and I breast feed but do so discreetly, and the restaurant we were at was fairly empty, probably less than half of its tables/booths were full. Anyway, I am just sitting there talking to my husband and breast feeding my daughter when the waitress walks up, looks at me and says "Excuse me, but could you do that elsewhere, there's a baby station in the bathroom".
> 
> I looked at her and gave her the riot act. I didn't yell or scream but I let her know she has no right to ask me to do something like that and she was very rude. My husband pretty much just sat there and listened. It just really upset me, I have a daughter this girls age and she's trying to tell me where to breast feed? On top of her acting lousy towards me when I need a refill or have a question.
> 
> I actually told my husband not to even bother leaving a tip, something I very rarely do but he ended up giving her a $10 anyway, saying she still served us and deserves a tip. I disagreed but it is what it is.
> 
> Before we left I did talk to the manager about her behavior, he apologized and gave some coupons.
> 
> Sorry if this is too long, just wanted so much to have a nice dinner date and the ***** waitress girl just HAD to ruin it!


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## lucy999

Dana, what a horrible story. You finally get to go out with your family and this happens. And she started being a total b*tch right out of the gate calling you his mother. OH BROTHER.

As for your husband, I think he did fine up until he left that damn tip. That solidified the waitress' behavior as okay. 

Know that you did great by reaming her out. I find it hard to stand up to bullies and people who are rude and disrespectful to me. So I was cheering you on as I was reading your post. I think you did great.

Sure, it would've been nice for your husband to tell her off, but you're an adult and you took care of things just fine.

The only error here is your husband leaving a tip.

I hope your next venture won't be so upsetting.

Don't get me started on the whole public breastfeeding thing. I'll never understand why people are offended by it.


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## lucy999

chillymorn said:


> I have on many occasions pulled someone like this aside and after tipping them a decent tip said I hope whatever is bothering you to make you act so angry gets resolved.


I really like this. I remember when I was at the bank with my mother as a young child, the bank teller being a total piissypants. Mom just said, "Are you having a bad day?" Totally diffused the situation. It's a nonaggressive confrontation and requires a delicate touch. Not everyone is capable of that.


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## 3putt

I would've tipped the 10 bucks with a note that read: _This is what I tip for terrible service._


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## Bob Davis

Should've been out of there from the waitress's first misstep.

Waitress was totally out of line. Especially with that sitting by your hubby for order taking.

Hubby...should've been more attentive to you, "Dear, do you need a drink refill, too?"

And he shouldn't have left the tip...there was no courtesy or service for you.


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## LonelyGuy69

Firstly, you say it was a date night yet you took your daughter? Perhaps your H was annoyed about this to start? A date night should be for a couple to spend time together, not have anyone else around. 
Secondly, if you knew that your daughter was breastfed, why not go out after a feed, rather than when there is she will need feeding in a place of eating? I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed, over here it's still frowned upon in a lot of places, 

Yes the waitress was rude, but I'm guessing that she sat next to your husband and pandered to him as she assumed he would be paying, and therefore more likely to tip, like said they do work for tips after all. Not saying it's right, but if the service is poor from the start ask to be moved or for another server.

It's quite easy to get annoyed by things specially as it was your first time out, but like I said, if your H was told let's have a date night he may have expected something different, but by the time he realised it was too late. 8 pm is quite late to go out with a child anyway, specially if it's close to feed and bed time. I think your H is aware of how angry and upset you were, but perhaps next time it should just be the two of you, and have that time together you so obviously aren't getting


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## bkyln309

Im not a fan of breastfeeding in public eating places. Its bodily fluids and not very sanitary. 

Not to be mean but you sound a touch hormonal.


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## 2&out

My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


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## coffee4me

bkyln309 said:


> Im not a fan of breastfeeding in public eating places. Its bodily fluids and not very sanitary.


I don't get this comment can you explain to me how breast feeding a baby is unsanitary to the public?


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## SecondTime'Round

bkyln309 said:


> Im not a fan of breastfeeding in public eating places. Its bodily fluids and not very sanitary.
> 
> Not to be mean but you sound a touch hormonal.


There is nothing dirty or unsanitary about breast milk. It's food, not bodily fluid. For goodness' sake, some people use it to treat their baby's ear infections.


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## SecondTime'Round

2&out said:


> My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


I don't understand why people find breasts so offensive.


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## NobodySpecial

2&out said:


> My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


So it is ok for grown people to eat at the dinner table but not babies? Weird.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
Don't forget that its often easy to think of what you *should* have done in hindsight, but to not be able to come up with an appropriate response when the incident happens.


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## joannacroc

SecondTime'Round said:


> I don't understand why people find breasts so offensive.


They don't. If they're in lingerie on a billboard. If they're being used for their intended purpose they are soooo offensive. Weird, huh?


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## lucy999

SecondTime'Round said:


> I don't understand why people find breasts so offensive.


Because 'Murica.


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## samyeagar

SecondTime'Round said:


> There is nothing dirty or unsanitary about breast milk. It's food, not bodily fluid. For goodness' sake, some people use it to treat their baby's ear infections.


Yep, and it is common for serious body builders to drink breastmilk, especially colostrum. They pay very good money for it.


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## Yeswecan

I would left the waitress a tip. It would be on the napkin written in pen. It would state, "Find a new job. This one is not working out for you." But you know what, my W and I would probably walk out before we got that far. The breast feeding ordeal would have set me off. 

We have walked out of restaurants before. Once our waitress appeared with a cigarette in her mouth asking, "What'll ya have?" We said our coats and left.


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## Blondilocks

I'm not fond of seeing women breast feed in restaurants. Why? Because all the men start to stare and suddenly their knickers are too tight and the air gets thick with testosterone which makes the food taste like crap. But; I would rather they breast feed at the table than in the bathroom - those places are nasty.


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## staarz21

I'm wondering if this could have been a misunderstanding from the get go. When the waitress asked if they were bringing mom to dinner...I am not sure she meant that YOU were his mother. Is it possible she meant it like she was talking to the baby? Some people do that. Using "mom" or "dad" when someone doesn't know your name (and there is a child present) is actually quite common. A lady we were checking out with at the mall (when my youngest was a baby still) said, "Look! Taking mom shopping, I see!" I was in no way offended by that. 

"Oh look! Taking mom out to dinner!!" Doesn't necessarily mean that she thought you were your H's mother. I just wonder if you're insecure about the age gap between you and your H and that's what drove you to the conclusion that she thought you were his mother. You seem to feel that most younger women are a threat. Maybe you're feeling that way more so right now because you're postpartum, but it's something to think about. If your H loves you, there is nothing to worry about. 

Have a talk with him, but don't accuse him of flirting. Maybe he thought she meant it the way I read it as well which is why he didn't get all worked up over it. He could even be confused as to why you got worked up over it as well. 

I don't know, I didn't read it like she thought you were his mother. I guess I'm just weird.


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## Lon

So don't go back there again.


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## pidge70

staarz21 said:


> I'm wondering if this could have been a misunderstanding from the get go. When the waitress asked if they were bringing mom to dinner...I am not sure she meant that YOU were his mother. Is it possible she meant it like she was talking to the baby? Some people do that. Using "mom" or "dad" when someone doesn't know your name (and there is a child present) is actually quite common. A lady we were checking out with at the mall (when my youngest was a baby still) said, "Look! Taking mom shopping, I see!" I was in no way offended by that.
> 
> "Oh look! Taking mom out to dinner!!" Doesn't necessarily mean that she thought you were your H's mother. I just wonder if you're insecure about the age gap between you and your H and that's what drove you to the conclusion that she thought you were his mother. You seem to feel that most younger women are a threat. Maybe you're feeling that way more so right now because you're postpartum, but it's something to think about. If your H loves you, there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> Have a talk with him, but don't accuse him of flirting. Maybe he thought she meant it the way I read it as well which is why he didn't get all worked up over it. He could even be confused as to why you got worked up over it as well.
> 
> I don't know, I didn't read it like she thought you were his mother. I guess I'm just weird.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who seems to think the OP is a bit hypersensitive about younger women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

staarz21 said:


> *I'm wondering if this could have been a misunderstanding from the get go. When the waitress asked if they were bringing mom to dinner...I am not sure she meant that YOU were his mother. Is it possible she meant it like she was talking to the baby? Some people do that. Using "mom" or "dad" when someone doesn't know your name (and there is a child present) is actually quite common.* A lady we were checking out with at the mall (when my youngest was a baby still) said, "Look! Taking mom shopping, I see!" I was in no way offended by that.
> 
> "Oh look! Taking mom out to dinner!!" Doesn't necessarily mean that she thought you were your H's mother. I just wonder if you're insecure about the age gap between you and your H and that's what drove you to the conclusion that she thought you were his mother. You seem to feel that most younger women are a threat. Maybe you're feeling that way more so right now because you're postpartum, but it's something to think about. If your H loves you, there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> Have a talk with him, but don't accuse him of flirting. Maybe he thought she meant it the way I read it as well which is why he didn't get all worked up over it. He could even be confused as to why you got worked up over it as well.
> 
> I don't know, I didn't read it like she thought you were his mother. I guess I'm just weird.



I don't buy it. Both the OP and her H thought the same thing about the statement of bringing mom to dinner. H corrected the waitress. Almost always anyone doing what you have suggested would say it in a cutesy voice. We don't know how it was presented and in what voice.


----------



## staarz21

Yeswecan said:


> I don't buy it. Both the OP and her H thought the same thing about the statement of bringing mom to dinner. H corrected the waitress. Almost always anyone doing what you have suggested would say it in a cutesy voice. We don't know how it was presented and in what voice.


I don't know what her H thought. He isn't here to tell his side of the story...but even from what Dana wrote, it could mean the H misunderstood the waitress as well. 

They have a new baby...they aren't really used to people coming up to them and telling them stuff. This really does sound more like a misunderstanding than anything. The woman that spoke to us at the mall used her normal voice. People just think it's like a normal greeting around here when they don't know your name. 

Either that, or the waitress is super balls-y to first offend someone then ignore them the rest of the meal. I'm thinking the waitress got in a tiff because both Dana and her H misunderstood her in the beginning and it embarrassed her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

intheory said:


> Still, what about the waitress _sitting down_ and focussing on MrDana?


Her possible joke fell flat and she pissed off Dana with the breastfeeding comment. His wife had the baby and was eventually breastfeeding so, he is most likely going to pay the bill. She knew, IMO, the tip could be low or zero. She went to work to get the tip and it worked.


----------



## staarz21

intheory said:


> I'd like to think that staarz21 is right, but it doesn't sound like it from the OP.
> 
> Dana, what do you think? Could it have been a misunderstanding?
> 
> Still, what about the waitress _sitting down_ and focussing on MrDana?


The waitress sitting down could also indicate that it was a misunderstanding. The waitress sounds like she was being playful..."Oh bringing mom out to dinner!" 

They correct her....she gets embarrassed because of the misunderstanding...tries to make up for it by being playful again and sitting down next to Mr.Dana (waitresses do sometimes do this)...by this time Dana is offended and gives the waitress the cold shoulder....the waitress decided to focus on the person that isn't being rude to her. 

I'm not saying the waitress was right....but I am thinking this could have been avoided.


----------



## convert

EleGirl said:


> Also on the tipping/not-tipping. OP's husband was complicit in that he allowed the waitress to with next to him. that' is a form of flirting.


I agree

at least his food did not have spit in it:wink2:


----------



## Anonymous07

staarz21 said:


> The waitress sitting down could also indicate that it was a misunderstanding. The waitress sounds like she was being playful..."Oh bringing mom out to dinner!"
> 
> They correct her....she gets embarrassed because of the misunderstanding...tries to make up for it by being playful again and sitting down next to Mr.Dana (waitresses do sometimes do this)...by this time Dana is offended and gives the waitress the cold shoulder....the waitress decided to focus on the person that isn't being rude to her.
> 
> I'm not saying the waitress was right....but I am thinking this could have been avoided.


This could very well be true. Dana, I know you tend to be a bit hypersensitive about your age gap relationship, so this may just be part of that. Something to think about. 

As for breastfeeding in public, in most states you are protected by law to be able to breastfeed anywhere you are, covered or not. I never covered up when nursing my son, as he would pull the cover off his head anyways. He's been breastfed at restaurants, a baseball stadium, church, different stores, on airplanes, etc. and nursed until 18 months old. You just feed baby when she's hungry and ignore what is around you. Sadly, there are still quite a few people who are not okay with breastfeeding. Maybe more calm exposure can help change their mind. 

You can't take everything so personal. Part of parenting is that you get a lot of unwanted advice and opinions from others, so you have to take things with a grain of salt. She said to breastfeed in the bathroom and in response, you just smile and say "no thanks, we're good right here". Keep it simple and move on. Don't make it a huge issue.


----------



## convert

joannacroc said:


> They don't. If they're in lingerie on a billboard. If they're being used for their intended purpose they are soooo offensive. Weird, huh?


I agree


and besides breasts without nipples are pointless


----------



## lucy999

staarz21 said:


> The waitress sitting down could also indicate that it was a misunderstanding. The waitress sounds like she was being playful..."Oh bringing mom out to dinner!"
> 
> They correct her....she gets embarrassed because of the misunderstanding...tries to make up for it by being playful again and sitting down next to Mr.Dana (waitresses do sometimes do this)...by this time Dana is offended and gives the waitress the cold shoulder....the waitress decided to focus on the person that isn't being rude to her.
> 
> I'm not saying the waitress was right....but I am thinking this could have been avoided.


This is why I enjoy this place so much. I had never ever thought of that being the case. Sounds like it could very well might have been exactly as you described. Thank you for pointing that out.


----------



## richie33

Friend of your daughter maybe?


----------



## Mr. Nail

I've had a waitress sit next to me precisely once. It disturbed me because it was unexpected. I asked a few people about it. These were the responses I got:
My Wife (was not present at that meal): She was probably tired it was late.
An uncle: She was creating intimacy as a tactic to increase her tip.
A coworker who loves a joke and can't resist one even when a smarter person would know better: That happened to me once when I was out with my ex wife, she was a jealous type. as soon as the waitress left my ex said "wasn't that weird for her to sit next to you? " I replied "not really, but I did think it was strange when she put her hand on my thigh".


----------



## LonelyinLove

SecondTime'Round said:


> There is nothing dirty or unsanitary about breast milk. It's food, not bodily fluid. For goodness' sake, some people use it to treat their baby's ear infections.


Actually, there is....and it is a bodily fluid. 

That big Ebola scare...and the idiot nurse who traveled to Ohio with it...she was 10 minutes from my house.

Our med center did a seminar on it....it can be spread via breast milk.


----------



## samyeagar

LonelyinLove said:


> Actually, there is....and it is a bodily fluid.
> 
> That big Ebola scare...and the idiot nurse who traveled to Ohio with it...she was 10 minutes from my house.
> 
> Our med center did a seminar on it....it can be spread via breast milk.


I guarantee there is far more illness spread through improperly washed lettuce at restaurants than breast milk...not to mention door handles...


----------



## LonelyinLove

samyeagar said:


> I guarantee there is far more illness spread through improperly washed lettuce at restaurants than breast milk...not to mention door handles...


Very true. 

However, that does not diminish the fact that breast milk is a body fluid and can spread disease.


----------



## bkyln309

LonelyinLove said:


> Very true.
> 
> However, that does not diminish the fact that breast milk is a body fluid and can spread disease.


Exactly. It is a bodily fluid. Scary that so many women do not realize this. While it may be beautiful experience, there is a time and place for it. In the middle of a restaurant is not the place. 

What ever happened to consideration of others?


----------



## Anonymous07

bkyln309 said:


> Exactly. It is a bodily fluid. Scary that so many women do not realize this. While it may be beautiful experience, there is a time and place for it. In the middle of a restaurant is not the place.
> 
> What ever happened to consideration of others?


Feeding a baby naturally in a place that is meant for people to eat?? How horrible that women would do that. >


----------



## samyeagar

LonelyinLove said:


> Very true.
> 
> However, that does not diminish the fact that breast milk is a body fluid and can spread disease.


So is an improperly covered sneeze, or a properly covered one for that matter, which again, I guarantee is far more likely to spread a disease in a restaurant. Your experience may be different, but I have never seen any nursing mother publicly spray her breastmilk with impunity...


----------



## samyeagar

I would also guarantee that a bottle is far more likely to spread disease, simply by virtue of the fact that it has been touched more, by more people, sat on other surfaces....


----------



## lucy999

samyeagar said:


> I would also guarantee that a bottle is far more likely to spread disease, simply by virtue of the fact that it has been touched more, by more people, sat on other surfaces....


Yes. And can we talk about the menus? Jose Peppers got it right when they decided to have a bottle of hand sanitizer at every table.


----------



## samyeagar

lucy999 said:


> Yes. And can we talk about the menus? Jose Peppers got it right when they decided to have a bottle of hand sanitizer at every table.


Yeah, it's just ludicrous to talk about the hygenics of breastfeeding in the context of spreading disease in public places. There is just no compelling reason for it to not be allowed beyond an individuals personal bias'.


----------



## Jung_admirer

I am not sure what I would have said after the waitress sat down. Choices, Choices, Choices...

-"So glad you decided to join us, can we get a discount now that we are friends?" (a little too flirty)
-"Thanks for sitting down, we were hoping to recruit a F-M-F partner." (over the top)
-"Please excuse me, I need to use the restroom (find manager and ask for a different server)"
-"Would you mind sitting down next to my wife & daughter so I can get a good look at you." (off balance)


----------



## jld

Lol, Jung.


----------



## LonelyinLove

samyeagar said:


> So is an improperly covered sneeze, or a properly covered one for that matter, which again, I guarantee is far more likely to spread a disease in a restaurant. Your experience may be different, but I have never seen any nursing mother publicly spray her breastmilk with impunity...


Not on purpose, but it can happen. It can drip and be on a table edge, or the seat and the next person seated there can touch it.

HIV 1&2, Hepatitis B&C, Syphillis, and HTLV 1&2, Ebola...all spread via Breast milk. 

From "Retrospective review of serological testing of potential human milk donors":

"Of 1091 potential donors, 3.3% were positive on screening serology, including 6 syphilis, 17 hepatitis B, 3 hepatitis C, 6 HTLV [human T cell lymphotropic virus] and 4 HIV.

The authors did not test random women off the street. They screened women who had volunteered to donate to Mothers’ Milk Bank of San Jose, California, USA, a not-far-profit member of the Human Milk Banking Association of North America who had already passed preliminary testing."

Like it or not, there are some places you should not BF. Tough titties. Pun intended.


----------



## Wolf1974

Just a couple of points.

Not sure where you all are eating but a waitress sitting down to take an order isn't all that Uncommon. This trend seems to be increasing but some of the major chains I have seen them do this is: Rock Bottom, Cheescake Factory, Carrabas to name a few. And several local businesses as well. I have limited experience with the food service industry but my GF has a lot and says acting friendly and sitting to take orders either offends people or gets you better tips. No idea about that but it's not uncommon to see.

I also agree it's a tricky situation to get involved between his wife and waitress. On the one hand if you don't then you get chastised for not sticking up for her and if you do then you get chastised for not letting her handle it. Best just to stay out of it in my opinion so long as she is ok defending herself.

The tip thing I really disagree with. If she was a not good waitress in your opinion then no tip should be left. Tip amount is = to service provided.


----------



## samyeagar

LonelyinLove said:


> Not on purpose, but it can happen. It can drip and be on a table edge, or the seat and the next person seated there can touch it.
> 
> HIV 1&2, Hepatitis B&C, Syphillis, and HTLV 1&2, Ebola...all spread via Breast milk.
> 
> From "Retrospective review of serological testing of potential human milk donors":
> 
> "Of 1091 potential donors, 3.3% were positive on screening serology, including 6 syphilis, 17 hepatitis B, 3 hepatitis C, 6 HTLV [human T cell lymphotropic virus] and 4 HIV.
> 
> The authors did not test random women off the street. They screened women who had volunteered to donate to Mothers’ Milk Bank of San Jose, California, USA, a not-far-profit member of the Human Milk Banking Association of North America who had already passed preliminary testing."
> 
> *Like it or not, there are some places you should not BF*. Tough titties. Pun intended.


And blood from a scraped scab, or cut from a steak knife contains all the same things. Once again, I guarantee that there are far more instances of involuntary blood spill in restaurants, especially from the workers in the kitchen, than involuntary breastmilk spill.

I would be very interested in seeing the stats of any one of those diseases being transmitted through incidental, secondary contact with breastmilk in a public place.


----------



## DanaS

Thanks everyone. I talked to my husband last night and he apologized for leaving the tip and not sticking up for me. He said when it happened he just saw it as an argument between women. He stated that when she sat down next to him he didn't want to make a scene or be rude by telling her to get up, but said he was sorry if it bothered me. Oh, and I most definitely doubt it was all a misunderstanding, she did flirt such as telling him he looked good in his suit and the way she talked to him. We were both dressed up nice and presentable. 

I also wouldn't say I am "hyper sensitive" to younger women, I really don't care and I know my husband he wouldn't go for these bimbo types lol.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, it's just ludicrous to talk about the hygenics of breastfeeding in the context of spreading disease in public places. There is just no compelling reason for it to not be allowed beyond an individuals personal bias'.


I agree. It is the biggest STRETCH I've ever seen in the breastfeeding debate.

I have never, ever, ever, heard of a random person getting a disease from a stranger breastfeeding in their vicinity. It's laughable.

I have heard of a mother who unknowingly had AIDS (caught from her husband who got it from a blood transfusion) and gave it to all of her children except one. Very, very sad story, many years ago. But, she actually breastfed them all. 

The vast majority of breastfeeding moms are not carrying transmittable illnesses. Honestly, if this is your argument, it's just plain pathetic.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

samyeagar said:


> And blood from a scraped scab, or cut from a steak knife contains all the same things. Once again, I guarantee that there are far more instances of involuntary blood spill in restaurants, especially from the workers in the kitchen, than involuntary breastmilk spill.
> 
> I would be very interested in seeing the stats of any one of those diseases being transmitted through incidental, secondary contact with breastmilk in a public place.


Or accidentally spitting while you eat. Or crying. (Aren't tears a bodily fluid?)


----------



## WorkingWife

2&out said:


> My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


I don't necessarily think it's rude. If the baby needs to eat the baby needs to eat. But a stranger breast feeding next to me in a restaurant would make me uncomfortable. (Though not as uncomfortable as if their baby was crying really loud.) I would just ignore it though, figuring the discomfort was my problem. But I can see a restaurant not wanting breast feeding out in the open.

But it sounds like this waitress was obnoxious or clueless from start to finish. You could take the breast feeding part out of the story her words/behavior still would cause a double-take on my part.


----------



## WorkingWife

staarz21 said:


> ...tries to make up for it by being playful again and sitting down next to Mr.Dana (waitresses do sometimes do this)...


I can't think of a time ever in my life that a waitress sat down next to me or my husband. Maybe it's a cultural thing - more common in some areas? Though I've been all over the US. Never seen this. Maybe she has a bum hip.... The sitting next to him is the part I find the oddest in the story.


----------



## LonelyinLove

SecondTime'Round said:


> The vast majority of breastfeeding moms are not carrying transmittable illnesses. Honestly, if this is your argument, it's just plain pathetic.


It is rare. If it was impossible we would'nt have covered it in our training class.

It can happen. 

As for the vast majority of breast-feeding mothers being healthy, that is most likely very true. 

But all it takes is one that isn't, and contact. 

:surprise:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

WorkingWife said:


> I can't think of a time ever in my life that a waitress sat down next to me or my husband. Maybe it's a cultural thing - more common in some areas? Though I've been all over the US. Never seen this. Maybe she has a bum hip.... The sitting next to him is the part I find the oddest in the story.


I've been to most of the 50 states and have seen it by many different cultures and genders.


----------



## Blondilocks

Ever been to Hooters? They cuddle up to both men & women. Laughable & sickening at the same time.


----------



## WorkingWife

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I've been to most of the 50 states and have seen it by many different cultures and genders.


Did they come up to take an order and just sit down at the table? I've been to about 20 of the states, but scattered all over, and I just cannot wrap my head around this.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I once gave CPR to an old black lady in Golden Corral. Stay away from the gravy dipped cornbread. And everything else, if you're diabetic.


----------



## Blondilocks

Runs like Dog said:


> I once gave CPR to an old black lady in Golden Corral. Stay away from the gravy dipped cornbread. And everything else, if you're diabetic.


LOL And, this is relevant to this thread? How?


----------



## Anonymous07

WorkingWife said:


> Did they come up to take an order and just sit down at the table? I've been to about 20 of the states, but scattered all over, and I just cannot wrap my head around this.


I live in Calif. and have seen it happen a few times. And yes, they sat down to take the order, usually at restaurants like TGI Fridays, BJ's restaurant and brewhouse, Islands restaurant, etc just to name a few. I never really thought much of it, other than that they were acting friendly.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

WorkingWife said:


> Did they come up to take an order and just sit down at the table?


All kinds:
Sat down at the table.
Sat down down cross legged on the floor.
Sat down in the booth if we sat next to each other.
Pulled up a chair and sat down near one of us.

Once had the server sit in front of us, in the next booth, taking our order over the back of the cushions.

Yes, I even had the one with an ankle or foot injury, can't remember which, who asked to sit down. Now, I will say, the more upscale the less it occurs on a scale to zero.

Maybe you are that rich.:grin2:


----------



## DanaS

Interesting some haven't seen waiters/waitresse' sit next to others. Where I am from it certainly happens as well as others such as kneeling down while taking your order.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Blondilocks said:


> LOL And, this is relevant to this thread? How?


I don't pay any attention to wait staff.


----------



## Thundarr

She's not going to keep this job or likely her next one very long.


----------



## Holland

2&out said:


> My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


I can't believe in 2015 people are offended by breast feeding. We are bombarded daily with overtly sexual images of women yet a mum that is doing something normal is told she must stay at home to feed her baby, if it were bottle fed then that would be OK?


----------



## morituri

To paraphrase the little boy from The 6th Sense, "I smell ex-waitresses in this thread".


----------



## Thundarr

2&out said:


> My 2 cents is if someone wants to breastfeed at the dinner table they should stay home and do it there - not out in public in front of me. Why should I have to be subjected to it ? I think it's rude of them.


I'm sorry I missed the part where breast feeding involved someone putting a boob in your mouth. Or where it involved a gun to your head making you gawk. You know boobs are actually made to feed offspring.


----------



## Holland

Fitnessfan said:


> OMG they're boobs. Who even cares if you see them! The trauma!


Some people only like to see them on their own terms, as in only when they are there for male pleasure. But OMG when they are being used for their intended purpose, disgusting, keep them out of view.


----------



## DanaS

I greatly enjoy breast feeding, it offers such a bond! And when I originally talked to him about breast feeding he was all for it and was always encouraging, it's not the first time we have been out and I have breast fed. I do try to be discreet but things happen like Cadance will pull the shawl or blanket, but hey I am a 45 year old woman I couldn't care less if seeing my boobs offends them, at least my husband doesn't complain


----------



## Thundarr

DanaS said:


> I greatly enjoy breast feeding, it offers such a bond! And when I originally talked to him about breast feeding he was all for it and was always encouraging, it's not the first time we have been out and I have breast fed. I do try to be discreet but things happen like Cadance will pull the shawl or blanket, but hey I am a 45 year old woman I couldn't care less if seeing my boobs offends them, at least my husband doesn't complain


It's healthy and natural. If more women breast fed then no one would think twice about it and our next generation would be better off.


----------



## frusdil

EleGirl said:


> We are not talking about some cultures here. The norm in the USA is that wait staff make most of their income off of tips. In some states the minimum wage for wait staff is $2.18 pre hour. Using someone's services and not paying for the services you used is a form of theft. Theft if immoral.
> 
> Yes she does need to respect all her customers. That's why when she acted like that they should have either left or asked for a new waiter/waitress.


Omg $2.18/hr???? :surprise:

Gawd, over here wait staff rates of pay, depending on experience, start at $15/hr for a newbie and go right up to $48/hr for an experienced person working on a public holiday!

$2.18 is an absolute disgrace. Shame on the US. How are people supposed to live???


----------



## Mr. Nail

frusdil said:


> Omg $2.18/hr???? :surprise:


Which is the other point in this thread. I have a minimum tip and tip over 15%. So mimimum if 15% is less than my minimum. Rarely tip over 20% because I'm not wealthy. But there are times when 20% of my lunch would be less than my minimum so I would tip the minimum. 

The same goes for abusing fast food staff. At the rates you pay, Don't expect them to hire highly skilled workers.


----------



## bravenewworld

Spent a decent portion of my life working in restaurants. First off, if you are ever dissatisfied with your service PLEASE ask to speak with a manager and let them know what is going wrong. You can always ask for another waiter to take over the table if your service is truly horrible, such as in DanaS's experience. Sounds like that lady was off her meds. Women breast feed all the time in my restaurant and no one bats an eye. 

Please don't ever leave a penny (so tacky) or a $hitty tip. People like me live off those tips and while you are definitely screwing the waiter you dislike, you are also screwing the bus boy, bartender, food runner, host, etc. who the waiter is tipping out at the end of the night. And who likely did nothing to you. Always talk to a manager rather than taking it out on the tip. At least give the restaurant (and the rest of the staff) the chance to make it right. Believe it or not, the majority of us care about the service we provide and want you to have a great experience.

DanaS, what you experienced was appalling! I am so sorry. However, I do think your husband was right not to confront the server because (sexist or not) it's honestly terrible to see a man berate a female stranger in public. It would have been appropriate for him to ask to speak with a manager and ask for a different waiter. I wouldn't fault him for not knowing that, the whole experience sounds extremely weird! 

The refill thing is strange too. Did your husband order for you? I only ask because a few times I've waited on tables where the woman remained mute while the man literally did all the ordering. Eventually I stopped directing questions to the ladies when I realized they wouldn't answer for themselves. 

Usually when I wait on couples I make sure to address both people equally and never EVER flirt with the man. Sometimes I flirt with the lady, which oddly only seems to increase my tip.


----------



## bravenewworld

Also wanted to add, when I worked at a chain steakhouse in high school they FORCED us to either sit in the booth with customers or kneel at the table. I HATED it! Not only did it kill my knees, it felt awkward to force that type of familiarity on people!


----------



## morituri

Thundarr said:


> It's healthy and natural. If more women breast fed then no one would think twice about it and our next generation would be better off.


This guy thinks so to.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

bravenewworld said:


> Also wanted to add, when I worked at a chain steakhouse in high school they FORCED us to either sit in the booth with customers or kneel at the table. I HATED it! Not only did it kill my knees, it felt awkward to force that type of familiarity on people!


That's crazy. I hate when a server sits down at the table unless I know them personally.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Sometimes I flirt with the lady, which oddly only seems to increase my tip."

I've stopped going to a local Denny's because the waitresses tried to flirt with me. That's just creepy to me. And it greatly reduced their tip. All I ask is that they do the job to the best of their ability and be professional about it.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
In the US I believe that most of a waiter's income is from tips. In that sense tips aren't really optional - they are not a small addition to someone's income, they ARE the income.

IMHO it is a very bad system. I always tip and tip well, but I would much rather see pay (and food prices) raised, and tipping returned to being a special bonus for exceptional service, not the primary source of money.






frusdil said:


> Omg $2.18/hr???? :surprise:
> 
> Gawd, over here wait staff rates of pay, depending on experience, start at $15/hr for a newbie and go right up to $48/hr for an experienced person working on a public holiday!
> 
> $2.18 is an absolute disgrace. Shame on the US. How are people supposed to live???


----------



## WorkingWife

Anonymous07 said:


> I live in Calif. and have seen it happen a few times. And yes, they sat down to take the order, usually at restaurants like TGI Fridays, BJ's restaurant and brewhouse, Islands restaurant, etc just to name a few. I never really thought much of it, other than that they were acting friendly.


Interesting. I live in Southern Ca and just ate at Islands the other day. No one sat down anywhere that I saw, but both the hostess and waiter were extremely casual/friendly, chatting with us about what we were up to and using terms like "dude." I don't frequent those other places so maybe it's the type of restaurant - maybe they're going for a certain atmosphere.


----------



## WorkingWife

My understanding from waitresses is that the restaurant can pay you less than minimum wage, but your paycheck plus tips must add up to minimum wage. My MIL used to waitress in a very small town and tracked every tip because her employer had to make up the difference if it fell short. I worked in a lot of restaurants as a teen and waitresses always got at least minimum wage for their base salary.

My H and I almost always tip at least 20%, often more. I think tipping is customary but also voluntary. I will still tip pretty well for poor service if it seems the wait person is just clueless. But if they were deliberately rude to my spouse? No way. 

Maybe her husband didn't really think the waitress was rude but didn't want to insult her by saying he thought she perceived the situation wrong.


----------



## WorkingWife

phillybeffandswiss said:


> All kinds:
> Sat down at the table.
> Sat down down cross legged on the floor.
> Sat down in the booth if we sat next to each other.
> Pulled up a chair and sat down near one of us.
> 
> Once had the server sit in front of us, in the next booth, taking our order over the back of the cushions.
> 
> Yes, I even had the one with an ankle or foot injury, can't remember which, who asked to sit down. Now, I will say, the more upscale the less it occurs on a scale to zero.
> 
> Maybe you are that rich.:grin2:


LOL I am not that rich but I am a bit of a food snob - I don't eat at expensive restaurants but I do avoid most of the low-price chains mentioned elsewhere. I haven't eaten anywhere where people were sitting on the floor but in that case it makes sense to me for the waitress to also sit down.

I did once eat at a waffle house in the middle of the night in the south and first I was horrified to find they only had margarine, no real butter and seemed perplexed by my request, and then when the waitress brought my waffle she stood on the other side of the booth, and tilted her plate holding the waffle so it slid onto my existing plate that had egg yolk all over it. I don't think she liked me enough to sit down...


----------



## WorkingWife

DanaS said:


> Interesting some haven't seen waiters/waitresse' sit next to others. Where I am from it certainly happens as well as others such as kneeling down while taking your order.


So what did you object to in her sitting down next to him - did she get unnecessarily close to him or seem to be flirting with him? Or were you just mentioning that she sat down, and that was not part of what upset you?


----------



## sapientia

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

Unless it is illegal where you are, you are within your rights to breastfeed in public. I'm sure you were quite discreet about it, as most classy mothers I've observed are. Put it this way: if I'm at a restaurant and its the choice of a wailing child (which I do believe is disrespectful to the other's right to a quite night out) or a woman discreetly feeding her child, well, it IS a restaurant where people *eat*, is it not?

I might have left small tip anyway, as I'm sure this woman has other issues in life and, well, I get to enjoy eating out and she gets to serve. I find that bad service always sorts itself out eventually. E.g. I'm sure you won't be returning there anytime soon.


----------



## sapientia

SecondTime'Round said:


> That's crazy. I hate when a server sits down at the table unless I know them personally.


How odd. I have never experienced this. Is this some chain restaurant that encourages this?


----------



## Lon

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> In the US I believe that most of a waiter's income is from tips. In that sense tips aren't really optional - they are not a small addition to someone's income, they ARE the income.
> 
> IMHO it is a very bad system. I always tip and tip well, but I would much rather see pay (and food prices) raised, and tipping returned to being a special bonus for exceptional service, not the primary source of money.


My sentiments too, when I go to a restaurant the price on the menu isn't just for the food it's also to be served, if it's expected that I also have to pay for the food to be brought to my table with eating utensils and whatever else is needed, couldn't I just go to the kitchen myself and get my own food from the cook, then wash up my own plate afterwards?

This custom of gratuities has gotten out of hand. I am especially displeased that the server on whose character my tip is entirely based upon is taken from them and given to the other kitchen staff as has also become custom in the restaurant industry. I would personally prefer to patronize places that actually pay their kitchen staff and servers a good wage even if it meant higher menu prices, but there are no restaurants like that near me, they are all the same, where the owners just hire the cheapest ones they can (usually temporary foreign workers), hire the prettiest girls to serve tables and then when those young waitresses do a good job earning tips they strip them of a significant amount of what is intended for her. And I also find it curious that for several years now, male servers (waiters) are pretty much extinct where I live, can't remember the last time a guy brought my food when eating out.


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## Anonymous07

Dana, how is your older daughter doing? Any updates?


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## Holland

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> In the US I believe that most of a waiter's income is from tips. In that sense tips aren't really optional - they are not a small addition to someone's income, they ARE the income.
> 
> IMHO it is a very bad system. I always tip and tip well, but I would much rather see pay (and food prices) raised, and tipping returned to being a special bonus for exceptional service, not the primary source of money.


I really cannot get my head around the system there. Can you tell me the average price to eat out? A good quality, medium priced dinner out?


----------



## DanaS

WorkingWife said:


> So what did you object to in her sitting down next to him - did she get unnecessarily close to him or seem to be flirting with him? Or were you just mentioning that she sat down, and that was not part of what upset you?


When she sat down she did get close to him, my husband even scooted over she was practically right on top. I would say she was passively flirting, the tones she used and things she said. 

Now I get that with my husband being a young handsome guy married or not he's going to attract other women and there are women that won't care. Granted he's always pushed them away and has never acted embarrassed to be around me since we always hold hands, kiss in public etc. But some younger girls really have a lot of nerves!



Anonymous07 said:


> Dana, how is your older daughter doing? Any updates?


I posted an update in my older thread but my daughter got a job coralling the carts at wal mart and she complains saying it's too physically demanding, it's always real hot out, her co workers are dumb/lazy etc. I actually went to her wal mart to get some things with Cadance and saw her and tried talking to her and asked her if she wanted to see her new baby sister and she gave a mean look and said "I don't want to see it". 



Holland said:


> I really cannot get my head around the system there. Can you tell me the average price to eat out? A good quality, medium priced dinner out?


Depends where you go. Where we went it was about $15 a plate. Plus drinks/appetizers (no dessert) the bill came to around $60.


----------



## Anonymous07

Holland said:


> I really cannot get my head around the system there. Can you tell me the average price to eat out? A good quality, medium priced dinner out?


Each state is different though. 

In California, all restaurant workers earn minimum wage($9 an hour) in addition to tips received. Tips are just extras. A good meal at a fairly nice restaurant would cost about $10 or so.


----------



## Anonymous07

DanaS said:


> I posted an update in my older thread but my daughter got a job coralling the carts at wal mart and she complains saying it's too physically demanding, it's always real hot out, her co workers are dumb/lazy etc. I actually went to her wal mart to get some things with Cadance and saw her and tried talking to her and asked her if she wanted to see her new baby sister and she gave a mean look and said "I don't want to see it".


I meant as an update since then. Have you seen or talked to her since that incident?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
From what I have seen, the numbers are all over the map in the US. I'm most familiar with american cities:

Fast food maybe $5-$10.
Inexpensive but good food can be $10-$30
A steak dinner can run $20-$100
Of course throw in wine and there is no limit.

Some times you can fine excellent cheap food - in the southwest <$10 can get you excellent Mexican food. Cheaper if you don' get a soda or extras. 




Holland said:


> I really cannot get my head around the system there. Can you tell me the average price to eat out? A good quality, medium priced dinner out?


----------



## Holland

Not that dissimilar to our prices for dinner out, cheaper yes but we don't pay tips and the staff get paid properly. Drinks here are the killer, we can spend more on drinks than dinner.

TBH the whole idea of the customer making up the shortfall in wages sounds terrible.


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## jld

It is, Holland.


----------



## EleGirl

Holland said:


> Not that dissimilar to our prices for dinner out, cheaper yes but we don't pay tips and the staff get paid properly. Drinks here are the killer, we can spend more on drinks than dinner.
> 
> TBH the whole idea of the customer making up the shortfall in wages sounds terrible.


Years ago it worked a lot better then it does now.

I had an cousin who was a waitress in NYC at high end restaurant. Her typical tips were about $250 a night in the early 1970's. That's like about $2,500 now. She talked the push at that time to put all wait staff on a flat rate wage. There was no way she and the others she worked with would agree to that.


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> I meant as an update since then. Have you seen or talked to her since that incident?


No.


----------



## WorkingWife

Holland said:


> TBH the whole idea of the customer making up the shortfall in wages sounds terrible.


My understanding is that "Tip" stands for "To insure promptitude" and originated in England. The idea was to get better service, not to pay the person's wages. But now it's the custom in the US and it's pretty much expected that you tip. 

Restaurants that aren't expensive usually have very low profit margins, so if they had to pay the wait staff more, they would have to charge more for the food - If you want to eat at a restaurant I think you are going to pay it one way or the other. 

Personally, I enjoy tipping and the idea that it's voluntary. I tip a lot more voluntarily that I would be willing to pay if it were in the price. And waitresses usually make more money that the other workers in a restaurant.


----------



## sapientia

Holland said:


> Not that dissimilar to our prices for dinner out, cheaper yes but we don't pay tips and the staff get paid properly. Drinks here are the killer, we can spend more on drinks than dinner.
> 
> TBH the whole idea of the customer making up the shortfall in wages sounds terrible.


I'm surprised. In Canada (not too dissimilar to US), all workers must be paid--by the employer--minimum wage.

Here, a gratuity is NOT required, though it is expected if the service was decent. Higher rates (15-20%) are supposed to be for exceptional service, not "throw the plate on the table" service. It helps if the staff are properly trained.

Better restaurants, supper clubs, and large groups, will add a set gratuity but their business model is quite different. Poor service over time means death to the restaurant due to lack of clientele.

I agree with those who would speak with the manager. The restaurant business is brutally competitive. A manager who cares will usually discount the meal or invite you back for a different experience, gratis.


----------



## sapientia

WorkingWife said:


> Restaurants that aren't expensive usually have very low profit margins, so if they had to pay the wait staff more, they would have to charge more for the food - If you want to eat at a restaurant I think you are going to pay it one way or the other.


Paying staff more and charging more--reflecting the true cost of business--is the way to go. It means fewer people would eat out (not a bad thing either) perhaps, or less often, but it would improve the quality of the overall experience when they do.

This is how the Aussie's do it. It a more authentic way of doing business, and provides an actual living wage for those in the industry, rather than the poverty cycle the US system allows.


----------



## Holland

sapientia said:


> Paying staff more and charging more--reflecting the true cost of business--is the way to go. *It means fewer people would eat out (not a bad thing either) perhaps, or less often, but it would improve the quality of the overall experience when they do.*
> 
> This is how the Aussie's do it. It a more authentic way of doing business, and provides an actual living wage for those in the industry, rather than the poverty cycle the US system allows.


I live in a big city in Aussie and people go out to dinner a lot. All year round and 7 days a week, the restaurant industry is thriving here. We have what many call a "cafe" lifestyle, people go out for brekky, lunch or dinner often, meet up for coffees regularly.

ETA service, atmosphere and quality of food are vital, we have so much choice that we could go somewhere different every week so if any of the criteria were not good we simply don't go back.


----------



## sapientia

Thanks Holland. I agree. I lived in Oz a few years ago and loved it. The 'cafe' lifestyle you describe reminded me of Paris (but sunnier and friendlier).


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## Holland

Mr H went to America for work recently and said that the serving sizes are massive, 2 to 4 times what we would have. So much food, IMHO it would be better to have less food and pay the staff more.

He avoided the cooked brekky at the hotel till the last day, when he ordered he said just 2 pieces of bacon, they gave him 8, that is crazy.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Blondilocks said:


> Ever been to Hooters? They cuddle up to both men & women. Laughable & sickening at the same time.


You beat me to it. In my 32 years, I've experienced it twice. Once at Hooters and once at a topless donut shop.


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## Blondilocks

ExiledBayStater said:


> You beat me to it. In my 32 years, I've experienced it twice. Once at Hooters and once at a *topless donut shop.*


That's just eeewwwww.


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## Blondilocks

"He avoided the cooked brekky at the hotel till the last day, when he ordered he said just 2 pieces of bacon,* they gave him 8*, that is crazy".

I stay in a lot of hotels and have never seen this. Perhaps the server had difficulty understanding his Aussie accent. I witnessed an 
Aussie going through a buffet line and when the server didn't understand him the patron proceeded to yell his request. The server stated that he wasn't deaf, he just couldn't understand him.


----------



## joannacroc

ExiledBayStater said:


> You beat me to it. In my 32 years, I've experienced it twice. Once at Hooters and once at a topless donut shop.


Topless donut shop? I can't...I just...my brain just exploded. Too many jokes.


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## staarz21

joannacroc said:


> Topless donut shop? I can't...I just...my brain just exploded. Too many jokes.


There are also "bikini" coffee shops in Washington state (We were stationed at McChord AFB - so around Lakewood/Tacoma Washington - there were TONS of these shops near the base lol). 


OH and by bikini, I mean they can wear anything from a bikini to just pasties and a swim bottom.


----------



## Holland

Blondilocks said:


> "He avoided the cooked brekky at the hotel till the last day, when he ordered he said just 2 pieces of bacon,* they gave him 8*, that is crazy".
> 
> I stay in a lot of hotels and have never seen this. Perhaps the server had difficulty understanding his Aussie accent. I witnessed an
> Aussie going through a buffet line and when the server didn't understand him the patron proceeded to yell his request. The server stated that he wasn't deaf, he just couldn't understand him.


That could be possible but there is a huge difference between the two words. Regardless that was just one meal, all the other meals that week were at a minimum twice what would be served here. I hate to think how much food gets thrown out.

As for the topless and bikini cafes, gross, yuk and gross. Why does everything have to be reduced to demeaning women?


----------



## sapientia

> Ever been to a Hooters?





ExiledBayStater said:


> You beat me to it. In my 32 years, I've experienced it twice. Once at Hooters and once at a topless donut shop.


So? Isn't this part of the "experience"? I've never been, but if I did I wouldn't be shocked if a waitress flashes her chest and sat w/my H.

One doesn't go to a strip club expecting the crew to dress like puritans, unless that's part of their act to strip down, corsets and all. LOL.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> So? Isn't this part of the "experience"? I've never been, but if I did I wouldn't be shocked if a waitress flashes her chest and sat w/my H.
> 
> One doesn't go to a strip club expecting the crew to dress like puritans, unless that's part of their act to strip down, corsets and all. LOL.


Very true. The OP wasn't at Hooters though, and so was put off.


----------



## sapientia

Well, I allow that some people are occasionally persecuted unfairly. It happens. In such cases, like the OPs, I believe that those actions become their own reward, over time. That waitress won't continue at the restaurant much longer, I expect, if the manager cares about their reputation.

I do wonder, however, how discreet some are in breastfeeding their child in public? There are some people who, for lack of a better phrase, "find reasons to take offense". Here in Canada, it is legal for a woman to breastfeed her child in public but most do it in a discrete way so to not draw attention to themselves. It's certainly how I did it when I was breastfeeding my son. I wore special clothing that allowed me to feed my child without exposing the majority of my breasts. So, it's a question of degree. I agree with the fellows point about "other bodily functions that are natural" but would prompt people to ask for the bill and leave. Farting and belching, for example, or sneezing excessively if sick.

There is a disturbing trend, I've noticed, of people who think it's their right to subject others to the full experience of their activities. People who take their crying children to cinemas, allow them to run amok in shopping malls, etc. We've all seen these sorts who think their individual rights extend to invading the rights of others.

I'm quite for speaking up to people who are offending others. There is such a thing as courtesy and I think its a declining value in our society.


----------



## bravenewworld

sapientia said:


> Well, I allow that some people are occasionally persecuted unfairly. It happens. In such cases, like the OPs, I believe that those actions become their own reward, over time. That waitress won't continue at the restaurant much longer, I expect, if the manager cares about their reputation.
> 
> I do wonder, however, how discreet some are in breastfeeding their child in public? There are some people who, for lack of a better phrase, "find reasons to take offense". Here in Canada, it is legal for a woman to breastfeed her child in public but most do it in a discrete way so to not draw attention to themselves. It's certainly how I did it when I was breastfeeding my son. I wore special clothing that allowed me to feed my child without exposing the majority of my breasts. So, it's a question of degree. I agree with the fellows point about "other bodily functions that are natural" but would prompt people to ask for the bill and leave. Farting and belching, for example, or sneezing excessively if sick.
> 
> There is a disturbing trend, I've noticed, of people who think it's their right to subject others to the full experience of their activities. People who take their crying children to cinemas, allow them to run amok in shopping malls, etc. We've all seen these sorts who think their individual rights extend to invading the rights of others.
> 
> I'm quite for speaking up to people who are offending others. There is such a thing as courtesy and I think its a declining value in our society.


I guess I just don't get it in terms of being offended? It's a woman feeding her child - not a sexual thing. I mean there are people with major foot fetishes and I don't think it's rude to walk around in sandals with your toes exposed. 

Last night I waited on a table where a woman had her breast completely out while she breastfed. Not a single person commented on it. Or cared. I think the idea that the baby should eat in a restroom is offensive - who the heck wants to do that?!


----------



## sapientia

bravenewworld said:


> I guess I just don't get it in terms of being offended? It's a woman feeding her child - not a sexual thing. I mean there are people with major foot fetishes and I don't think it's rude to walk around in sandals with your toes exposed.
> 
> Last night I waited on a table where a woman had her breast completely out while she breastfed. Not a single person commented on it. Or cared. I think the idea that the baby should eat in a restroom is offensive - who the heck wants to do that?!


It about respecting others, when one has the choice to do so. Kissing in public is legal, but are you okay with people making out in public places? Or farting and belching loudly in public places? Blowing your nose at table when others are eating? Those are quite natural and non-sexual also.

It's a question of degree. I never said a woman should feed her child in a restroom, quite the opposite. As I posted, I breastfed my own son, but I chose to do it discretely, not full-on for all the world to see. To your point, it's breastfeeding, not a public show or display. Does a woman stand up in a restaurant and make loud airplane sounds for others to hear in order to feed their baby? Why not? It's natural, isn't it?

Some people are too willing to "display" to others to make a point, one that is usually about their own issues, and not in consideration of others. When one has a choice to be discrete, one simply should. It's called good manners.


----------



## sapientia

Here is a very good article on breastfeeding, recommended by nurses. Note the emphasis on being *discreet*

Nursing In PublicBreastfeeding Basics


----------



## WorkingWife

bravenewworld said:


> I guess I just don't get it in terms of being offended? It's a woman feeding her child - not a sexual thing. I mean there are people with major foot fetishes and I don't think it's rude to walk around in sandals with your toes exposed.
> 
> Last night I waited on a table where a woman had her breast completely out while she breastfed. Not a single person commented on it. Or cared. I think the idea that the baby should eat in a restroom is offensive - who the heck wants to do that?!


I think it's about having respect for other people. We have cultural norms. Women do not *normally* walk around topless in the US. In other places they do. I am not at all offended by women breast feeding in public in general - but if one had her entire breast out? I'd think - have some class and consideration for other people's sensibilities. You aren't the only person in this public place. How obnoxious. 

I certainly wouldn't be comfortable dining with my parents at the next table over from someone's naked breast, no matter how "natural."

Also, just because someone did this and no one said anything, does not mean they weren't offended. I would not make it my business to say anything, but I would still be disgusted.


----------



## bravenewworld

Personally I think women should be allowed to walk around topless. It's really dumb (and sexist) that it's the norm for men but if a woman does it, it's a huge scandal for no good reason. 

You can't really compare this to farting, pooping, or sneezing in public. Those have smells and diseases attached to them. Someone breastfeeding does not affect you at all unless you are being a lookie-loo busybody. And please don't try and compare it to sexual acts like making out as there is NOTHING sexual about breastfeeding. It's something women need to do, and it's much healthier for the baby. 

You want to cover up? Cool. You want to pop your boob out and feed your hungry child? Cool. Let's alleviate the shame factor and make it easy on the Moms. I mean, a century ago it was a scandal to show an ankle in public. I'm personally a big fan of progress. #prolady #womensrights


----------



## Marcus588

bravenewworld said:


> I mean, a century ago it was a scandal to show an ankle in public. I'm personally a big fan of progress. #prolady #womensrights


Uhhh...Are you by chance thinking of Saudi Arabia, today? Because even back during America's pioneer days in the 17th century women wouldn't have a scandal for showing her ankle. For christs' sake, I know a lot of women on here love to demonize men and point out all the bad things men do/have done but don't go out of your way to make up BS just to make men bad. Sure women wore longer dresses back then but they certainly wouldn't get in trouble for showing an ankle, even what women had to wear in the west during the 17th century wasn't near as bad as what women in the middle east are forced to wear in the 21st century.


----------



## Thundarr

sapientia said:


> It about respecting others, when one has the choice to do so. Kissing in public is legal, but are you okay with people making out in public places? Or farting and belching loudly in public places? Blowing your nose at table when others are eating? Those are quite natural and non-sexual also.


I get the distinction you make about rights versus common courtesy. It works both ways though so if a woman breast feeds and makes an effort to not full nipple flash everyone and if those around her make an effort to not fixate on her boob then it seems everyone is being courteous.


----------



## sapientia

bravenewworld said:


> You can't really compare this to farting, pooping, or sneezing in public. Those have smells and diseases attached to them.


You forgot about belching. Nice cherry picking of my post.

Well, there will always be people who do things with more class than others, I suppose. Yes, I chose to be discreet when I breastfed and I pumped at work. It got the job done and I didn't feel the need to make a big deal of it. I don't live on a soap box, I just live.


----------



## sapientia

Thundarr said:


> I get the distinction you make about rights versus common courtesy. It works both ways though so if a woman breast feeds and makes an effort to not full nipple flash everyone and if those around her make an effort to not fixate on her boob then it seems everyone is being courteous.


I completely agree with you. The child gets fed and is happy, and anyone who might see this isn't subjected needlessly to a "full nipple flash". Both parties are respected in this case. Which is what civilized behaviour is about.


----------



## WorkingWife

bravenewworld said:


> Personally I think women should be allowed to walk around topless. It's really dumb (and sexist) that it's the norm for men but if a woman does it, it's a huge scandal for no good reason.
> ...
> I mean, a century ago it was a scandal to show an ankle in public. I'm personally a big fan of progress. #prolady #womensrights


You're entitled to your perspective. But other people are also entitled to theirs. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean there is "no good reason" for it to those who do agree with it.

There are a lot of things that people didn't do a century ago that they do today. Some changes benefit us all, some, not so much. Just because something changed, does not necessarily make it progress.


----------



## 2&out

Personally I'm not against boobs or breastfeeding - I just think there is an appropriate place for it and it's not in a restaurant in front of others. It's just my opinion and preference. One consideration is I prefer my kids not have to see it and have to explain, tell them not to look, etc. It's similar to trying to ignore the arguing couple. It impacts my experience. 

One thing that has struck me a bit about this is both my kids were breast fed and I don't think it ever occurred to my ex or me that she'd do it in front of strangers in a restaurant. I know if she had it would have made me uncomfortable. As the posters' husband kind of retreated and laid low on the situation, it makes me wonder just how comfortable he was with it. This has the appearance of a "keep quite and keep your opinion to yourself" husband situation.


----------



## bravenewworld

WorkingWife said:


> You're entitled to your perspective. But other people are also entitled to theirs. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean there is "no good reason" for it to those who do agree with it.
> 
> There are a lot of things that people didn't do a century ago that they do today. Some changes benefit us all, some, not so much. Just because something changed, does not necessarily make it progress.


I never said they weren't. The people on the other side of the fence are the ones calling people "classless" and "obnoxious" who disagree. Might want to remind them of the above. It is my opinion the world would be a better if women weren't needlessly judged on how/where they breastfed and I am entitled to that. 

I do think women not being able to walk around topless is a ridiculous (a nipple is a nipple, why are we not clutching our pearls everytime a man whips one out?) 



Marcus588 said:


> Uhhh...Are you by chance thinking of Saudi Arabia, today? Because even back during America's pioneer days in the 17th century women wouldn't have a scandal for showing her ankle. For christs' sake, I know a lot of women on here love to demonize men and point out all the bad things men do/have done but don't go out of your way to make up BS just to make men bad. Sure women wore longer dresses back then but they certainly wouldn't get in trouble for showing an ankle, even what women had to wear in the west during the 17th century wasn't near as bad as what women in the middle east are forced to wear in the 21st century.


Society as a whole has set this declining standard so I'm including men and women who have this viewpoint. A lot of projecting going on. I don't know any women who love demonizing men and I think that's a pretty silly exaggeration. Not sure what Saudi Arabia has to do with this. Unless y'all live in Saudi Arabia? 



sapientia said:


> You forgot about belching. Nice cherry picking of my post.
> 
> Well, there will always be people who do things with more class than others, I suppose. Yes, I chose to be discreet when I breastfed and I pumped at work. It got the job done and I didn't feel the need to make a big deal of it. I don't live on a soap box, I just live.


Sorry, I'll work on not formulating coherent counterpoints. Most people do belch in public, and it also can have a nasty smell, which breastfeeding does not. Whoops. 

Dropping my mic on this topic. I guess all I can say is I think women should be allowed to breastfed how and where they want. Moms, you rule.


----------



## UMP

Well, 
I'll tell you what I would have done. As soon as she made the breast feeding comment, I would have gotten up and left right then and there. I would have walked up to the manager and asked for the bill. Paid the bill with no tip and told the manager WHY I did not leave a tip.


----------



## 2&out

on the waitresses sitting down thing. I think it may have something to do with the aura projected and how friendly you/someone seems. After a few times ex1 seemed to not be bothered by it so much. 2nd never accepted it. Both would emit lighting strikes if touched though...


----------



## Mr. Nail

It seems to me that while we are all busy discussing our opinions about public breastfeeding we are ignoring the bigger picture.
The reason this discussion is even happening is that the American (United States) culture is in the midst of changing it's standard on this issue. This was predicted by science fiction authors decades ago. As we have smaller families and less children there will be an increased focus on the well being of those children. Public open breast feeding will be accepted because as a society each of these children is an increasingly rare commodity. Children in Theaters and Shopping malls will be more and more catered to for the very same reason. 
It is entirely appropriate that we discuss our opinions in such a public forum. The aggregate of all the opinions will form the etiquette of the future.
MN


----------



## WorkingWife

bravenewworld said:


> I do think women not being able to walk around topless is a ridiculous (a nipple is a nipple, why are we not clutching our pearls everytime a man whips one out?)


Because as a general rule, men are sexually aroused by the sight of a womans nipple whereas women are not salivating over men's nipples in the same way.

Yes, a mammary gland is for feeding, but woman's naked breast is also sexual to most men. Look at pornography. You don't have women destroying their marriages spending hours masturbating to pictures of men's nipples. You don't have men on these forums complaining about their wife grabbing at their nipples all the time w/out paying attention to the rest of them.

Women's breasts are sexual to most people. And in our culture, we keep the nipple covered in polite company. When breast feeing in a public place it is NOT customary to whip out an entire breast. 

To me, considering that progress is like considering obese people in spandex and crop tops digging their underwear out of their butt cracks progress just because we didn't use to see people doing that in public.


----------



## youkiddingme

Oh my! It is a tough day for breast feeding moms.

However, what people must realize is that Breasts are sexual. Men are hypnotized by them. That is simply the truth. And, women....most of you must acknowledge that they are sexual organs that TURN you on also. Men know that touching and sucking on them is a step towards getting a woman sexually stimulated. Those are just the facts. The right stimulation of the breasts tends to cause the woman's legs to open up. That is just how it is.

Nonetheless, feeding babies is natural and must be done when kids are hungry. Therefore, women need to be careful to not put everything out there on display for the afore mentioned reasons.

Ladies, be discreet and all is good. Put it in my face and I can't help but want some too. That is just how it is.


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## sapientia

I think the simple point is that mothers *can* breastfeed in public (I did, its legal here) AND be discreet. The child gets fed, noone is needlessly exposed (the mother) or displayed to (everyone else). Everyone is happy. Why *wouldn't* a mother choose this whenever possible? I think most would. Those who feel the need to "display" to make a point are otherwise issued, I suspect.

Per the article I posted, most nurses encourage public breastfeeding but also to be discreet, wherever possible. It's simply the polite thing to do. In my experience, people are quite tolerant of supporting people's rights if things are not shoved at them, unasked. Noone wants to listen to or watch someone take an extreme position on a topic that doesn't require it.


----------



## AliceA

It's amazing to me that many people would think/say nothing about a woman feeding her child doughnuts, but would take offence at her feeding her child breastmilk. Far too few people seem to actually care about children in our society.


----------



## samyeagar

breeze said:


> It's amazing to me that many people would think/say nothing about a woman *feeding her child doughnuts*, but would take offence at her feeding her child breastmilk. Far too few people seem to actually care about children in our society.


Or a three year old drinking soda...


----------



## bkyln309

Entitlement thinking. Its called be respectful in a public place. I have nothing against breastfeeding in the appropriate environment or if you cover up. I think it is also notable if its a family restaurant vs a nice adult restaurant. I dont see the point of taking an infant to a fancy restaurant.


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## joannacroc

I think it boils down to a very basic debate about whether women who are breast feeding, bearing their breasts, are sexual in that context. I tend to think not. Maybe some men and women think otherwise. But most men are not milquetoast misses to swoon at the sight of breasts when they are being used to feed a baby. Man up, men. You can handle seeing a breast. 

The part of the breast that is covered in most ads is the nipple. It is covered when a baby is feeding, so it's not like you're seeing anything you aren't subjected to when driving around town. If you are looking so closely that you see a hint of nipple...then it would seem like you're almost looking a bit too closely - if it so offends you, why do you continue to look?

Men who find breast feeding in public offensive, please raise your hands if you have never been to a strip club in your life. No one? I thought not.


----------



## sapientia

It's the difference between someone digging around for gold in their nostril in public or using a handkerchief or kleenex and being more circumspect when they empty their nose. Both are natural, but one is more discreet and respectful of the experience of others. Both involve a *choice* to subject others to their experience, who neither asked nor need to be, in order to get a simple biological job done.

Of course, here where I live asians in particular think nothing of covering a nostril and blowing their chunks to the ground in public. Cultural (or lack of) norm indeed.


----------



## Mr. Nail

I work in construction and when we remodel businesses we frequently put a few cabinets into a new room called the lactation room. This room is being added not because the business wants to promote breast feeding, it is a law. Our political leaders have decided that we as a society value babies enough to promote their health by making breast feeding easier. The more progressive companies are very generous in furnishing these rooms. Hey, Happy families make productive workers, right?

Small businesses will slip under the line with this kind of law, but public pressure will eventually catch them up. I suspect in the next decade there will be private dining booths / rooms for nursing mothers, especially in the nicer restaurants. 

I'm seeing some arguments for keeping old standards. 20 years ago when my kids were very young. My MIL would frequently say when seeing a child throw a public tantrum, "a good spanking would fix that". This is an example of a cultural standard that has changed. What was good enough 20 years ago is certainly not good enough now. I don't know where we will settle on breast feeding. I don't find public breastfeeding distasteful and I would not shame a mother for using every opportunity to bond and nourish.
MN


----------



## Anonymous07

sapientia said:


> I think the simple point is that mothers *can* breastfeed in public (I did, its legal here) AND be discreet. The child gets fed, noone is needlessly exposed (the mother) or displayed to (everyone else). Everyone is happy. Why *wouldn't* a mother choose this whenever possible? I think most would. Those who feel the need to "display" to make a point are otherwise issued, I suspect.
> 
> Per the article I posted, most nurses encourage public breastfeeding but also to be discreet, wherever possible. It's simply the polite thing to do. In my experience, people are quite tolerant of supporting people's rights if things are not shoved at them, unasked. Noone wants to listen to or watch someone take an extreme position on a topic that doesn't require it.


What about a baby who will not eat under a cover? My son never allowed a cover and would just pull it off of himself, giving me a wtf look. Who wants to eat under a blanket? I certainly don't. Does that mean I wasn't being discreet? 

I don't know of any breastfeeding mother who is trying to be an exhibitionist, as she is just trying to feed her baby. Most women wearing low cut tops show off more skin than a breastfeeding mother. The whole "be discreet" add on just bugs me, as if she wants to show the world her breasts. It's laughable. No one is trying to display their breasts to make a point. In all honesty, no matter what the mom does, someone is going to be upset about it. I showed almost no skin while breastfeeding(tank top trick - tank under a shirt that you pull down, while you pull the shirt up) and I still had a number of people who were uncomfortable with it. You just can't win. 

Breastfeeding in general is fine. It doesn't matter where it is done or how it is done, discreet or not. It's protected by law. Random people's opinions do not matter. People need to get over it. They're just boobs.


----------



## bkyln309

Anonymous07 said:


> What about a baby who will not eat under a cover? My son never allowed a cover and would just pull it off of himself, giving me a wtf look. Who wants to eat under a blanket? I certainly don't. Does that mean I wasn't being discreet?
> 
> I don't know of any breastfeeding mother who is trying to be an exhibitionist, as she is just trying to feed her baby. Most women wearing low cut tops show off more skin than a breastfeeding mother. The whole "be discreet" add on just bugs me, as if she wants to show the world her breasts. It's laughable. No one is trying to display their breasts to make a point. In all honesty, no matter what the mom does, someone is going to be upset about it. I showed almost no skin while breastfeeding(tank top trick - tank under a shirt that you pull down, while you pull the shirt up) and I still had a number of people who were uncomfortable with it. You just can't win.
> 
> Breastfeeding in general is fine. It doesn't matter where it is done or how it is done, discreet or not. It's protected by law. Random people's opinions do not matter. People need to get over it. They're just boobs.


Then you dont breastfeed in public! Im a mom. You make allowances like feed before you go or arrange dinnertime at a different time. NOT that hard. Or pump before you go and put it in GASP a bottle because you are in public and the public may not want to deal with breastfeeding during their meal. Moms figure everything else out in life. Deal with it. 

I wish we still had some of the old school thinking like if you have a kid who is mis behaving in public. You take them out or you dont go to that place.


----------



## Anonymous07

bkyln309 said:


> Then you dont breastfeed in public! Just like if you have a kid who is mis behaving in public. You take them out.
> 
> Im a mom. You make allowances like feed before you go or arrange dinnertime at a different time. NOT that hard. Or pump. ENTITLEMENT. ENTITLEMENT. ENTITLEMENT.


Sorry, but that doesn't always work and I refuse(d) to be a hermit. I also don't remove my son every time he misbehaves. I correct the behavior and we move on. 

Nursing times can be random and I breastfed on demand. Some times my son nursed every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes it was almost constantly. I would not refuse him if he was hungry just because some stranger might have a problem with it. I also don't understand why breastfeeding a child at a place where people eat is "wrong". You eat there, so why can't a baby? As for pumping, not everyone responds well to a pump. I had an extremely hard time pumping for my son and would only get maybe 3 ounces. In addition to that, my son refused bottles. He would cry and wait for me in order to nurse. He wanted to nurse and be close to mom. There is nothing wrong with that. 

As for 'entitlement', yes I am entitled to breastfeed anywhere I am legally allowed to be. It is protected by law, so your opinion on it really does not matter.


----------



## GTdad

bkyln309 said:


> Then you dont breastfeed in public! Im a mom. You make allowances like feed before you go or arrange dinnertime at a different time. NOT that hard. Or pump before you go and put it in GASP a bottle because you are in public and the public may not want to deal with breastfeeding during their meal. Moms figure everything else out in life. Deal with it.
> 
> I wish we still had some of the old school thinking like if you have a kid who is mis behaving in public. You take them out or you dont go to that place.


I'm pretty Old School. Like Neanderthal State University old school. But I'm pretty damn surprised that there's still such an outcry and strong opinions regarding public breast-feeding. I can't for the life of me figure out what the big deal is.

A boob? Seen 'em before, and on top of it they're being used for the intended purpose. It's not like I'm going to lose my appetite over a glimpse of one.

I live in a college town, and drunk and/or loud kids are a far bigger problem than some mom quietly nursing her baby.


----------



## bkyln309

GTdad said:


> I'm pretty Old School. Like Neanderthal State University old school. But I'm pretty damn surprised that there's still such an outcry and strong opinions regarding public breast-feeding. I can't for the life of me figure out what the big deal is.
> 
> A boob? Seen 'em before, and on top of it they're being used for the intended purpose. It's not like I'm going to lose my appetite over a glimpse of one.
> 
> I live in a college town, and drunk and/or loud kids are a far bigger problem than some mom quietly nursing her baby.


For me, its not the boob but its bodily fluid in an eating establishment.


----------



## bkyln309

Anonymous07 said:


> Sorry, but that doesn't always work and I refuse(d) to be a hermit. I also don't remove my son every time he misbehaves. I correct the behavior and we move on.
> 
> Nursing times can be random and I breastfed on demand. Some times my son nursed every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes it was almost constantly. I would not refuse him if he was hungry just because some stranger might have a problem with it. I also don't understand why breastfeeding a child at a place where people eat is "wrong". You eat there, so why can't a baby? As for pumping, not everyone responds well to a pump. I had an extremely hard time pumping for my son and would only get maybe 3 ounces. In addition to that, my son refused bottles. He would cry and wait for me in order to nurse. He wanted to nurse and be close to mom. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> As for 'entitlement', yes I am entitled to breastfeed anywhere I am legally allowed to be. It is protected by law, so your opinion on it really does not matter.


These are excuses.


----------



## GTdad

bkyln309 said:


> For me, its not the boob but its bodily fluid in an eating establishment.


I've spent too much time shoveling sh*t and dealing with deer and hog guts to let a little milk bother me, either.

You Northeasterners and your dainty ways.


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## lucy999

bkyln309 said:


> These are excuses.


How fortunate for you that your kid(s) always breastfed according to your schedule and rules, your breast pump always worked, and everything worked great.


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## Anonymous07

bkyln309 said:


> These are excuses.


Well, good for you. 

Milk in an eating establishment? Oh, no.  How dare a baby eat where everyone else is eating. There are far worse things to worry about in this world than a mom nursing somewhere.


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## MattMatt

Here is a comment I overheard once. "You are expecting a tip? Well, here is a tip for you. Customer service is obviously not your forte. Get a job that doesn't involve you meeting people."


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## DanaS

Wow, I am amazed at some of the reply's, especially from women that are mothers! You may have been fortunate to have children that would feed like clock work but that's not everyone. As for pumping, I do, but it is difficult.


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## sapientia

Anonymous07 said:


> What about a baby who will not eat under a cover?


There are lots of other options to full exposure. In my case, I had clothing that exposed the nipple, which was then hidden when my son was latched. Simple and no need to expose others to a spectacle.


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## sapientia

Anonymous07 said:


> As for 'entitlement', yes I am entitled to breastfeed anywhere I am legally allowed to be. It is protected by law, so your opinion on it really does not matter.


As I said, some people are simply out to make a point vs behaving in a way that is respectful for everyone. In this case, we're entitled to make you as uncomfortable as you make us by staring and making a comment about how you could be more discreet (true). Making comments and staring are legal also.

Since I breastfed my own son, I know exactly how easy it is to choose to be more respectful of the experience of others. Also my own... I didn't want people to gawk either. Guess I'm just less of an exhibitionist than some.

Discreet clothing is available for purchase. It's comfortable. I used it. I breastfed in summer so I didn't cover my son w/a blanket. Perhaps you cannot afford the clothing? Although anyone who can afford to eat out and breastfeed in public should also be able to purchase blouses for lactation.

Anyway, I suspect we are getting the feminist cohort coming out for this and there's no winning with that lot. I'm a professional woman, breastfed and pumped. No problems. I suspect its the SAHMs who are up on this soap box and they dislike women like me, who hold them to a higher standard.


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## AliceA

Personally, I don't care how a woman does it, boob out, boob hidden, who cares. If her baby is getting fed breast milk, which is becoming a rare thing these days it seems, I'm happy for the baby. My preferences for not seeing someone's boob come secondary to the health and wellbeing of that child.


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## Thundarr

I think there are quite a few who are merely saying they don't personally like it because it makes them uncomfortable. To you guys, none of us *free boobers* can tell you how you should feel. I can just say I don't feel the same way. I like the idea or more breastfeeding. It reminds me that we're not iphones and facebook. We're not artificial intelligence yet. We are still human beings.


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## Holland

bkyln309 said:


> For me, its not the boob but its bodily fluid in an eating establishment.


I love this sort of comment. OK do you drink cows milk? Do you eat meat, eggs or any other product that came from an animals body?
Do you have your meat cook to a crisp or do you have it with a bit of blood oozing out?

Should all eating places ban milk products except for soy milk?


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## Thundarr

Holland said:


> I love this sort of comment. OK do you drink cows milk? Do you eat meat, eggs or any other product that came from an animals body?
> Do you have your meat cook to a crisp or do you have it with a bit of blood oozing out?
> 
> Should all eating places ban milk products except for soy milk?


It's human nature. My wife will eat store bought eggs all day long but when I get a dozen from my dad she'll turn her nose up. She'll eat steak and hamburger all day long but venison from one of many friend's hunting trip isn't happening. My wife is freaking awesome but I don't agree with her on these things .


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## sapientia

One thing I'm mindful of these days is social media. Anything done or said in public is potentially up on the internet.

So, if you're cool nipple flashing and it ends up on the interwebs, well, all the best. Especially since Google is forever (despite what they say).

For myself, I'd be okay with an image of holding my child to my breast, but where what exactly was happening was left up to the imagination... chacun a son gout.


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## sapientia

You decide which is classier:


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## sapientia

For at home, however, this is my favourite:


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## AliceA

Since the lady in the white top isn't even breastfeeding, and the other isn't paying attention to what she's doing, so is unsuccessfully breastfeeding imo (which is just a great way to get very sore nipples from constant detaching), I'm not sure how they can be compared.


----------



## sapientia

This isn't a discussion about the success of the techniques in the photos. Both women are (or were) breastfeeding. Which photo would you be comfortable with a client or your boss finding on the internet?

The woman in white *is* breastfeeding. I can find several other photos like this. That you can't really tell is called *discreet* (how I did it). Point made, I think.


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## sapientia

The last one is even from a breastfeeding rights website...


----------



## sapientia

This one. Pretty *discreet*


----------



## Mr. Nail

From the Original post:


DanaS said:


> I breast feed but do so discreetly, and the restaurant we were at was fairly empty, probably less than half of its tables/booths were full. Anyway, I am just sitting there talking to my husband and breast feeding my daughter when the waitress walks up, looks at me and says "Excuse me, but could you do that elsewhere, there's a baby station in the bathroom".


Discretion is not the point. The waitress was offended by a legal and discreet action.


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## GTdad

sapientia said:


> For at home, however, this is my favourite:


The oreo cookie is a GREAT touch. :grin2:


----------



## bkyln309

Holland said:


> I love this sort of comment. OK do you drink cows milk? Do you eat meat, eggs or any other product that came from an animals body?
> Do you have your meat cook to a crisp or do you have it with a bit of blood oozing out?
> 
> Should all eating places ban milk products except for soy milk?



No, Im vegan!


----------



## sapientia

GTdad said:


> The oreo cookie is a GREAT touch. :grin2:


Well, there's irony for you. Apparently it was *deleted* because it isn't "discreet" enough... there it is. Not even a nipple showing. Even the mods of this site think boobs are not suitable. Point made.


----------



## GTdad

sapientia said:


> Well, there's irony for you. Apparently it was *deleted* because it isn't "discreet" enough... there it is. Not even a nipple showing. Even the mods of this site think boobs are not suitable. Point made.


Normally I'd appreciate the irony, but I just "liked" that post. Still there.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Thundarr said:


> It's human nature. My wife will eat store bought eggs all day long but when I get a dozen from my dad she'll turn her nose up. She'll eat steak and hamburger all day long but venison from one of many friend's hunting trip isn't happening. My wife is freaking awesome but I don't agree with her on these things .


I don't either. My STBX is a hunter and I will really miss all of the lean meat (venison), especially the hamburger. He also just made really good ribs the other night from his wild boar hunt a couple months ago. (They were ruined a bit when he demanded I thank him for the meal and tell him how tasty they were).


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Thought this was fitting for this thread:


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> Point made.


Point made in the first paragraph of post 188, and driven home with a sledgehammer in the remainder of the thread.


----------



## sapientia

ExiledBayStater said:


> Point made in the first paragraph of post 188, and driven home with a sledgehammer in the remainder of the thread.


I'm glad you understood my first post. Given the number of blunt objects who can't seem to understand finer points of distinction, I'd say its a case of "right tool for the right job".

Anyway, I can't seem to see my own post re: Oreo Boobs. Oh well.


----------



## Holland

bkyln309 said:


> No, Im vegan!


And I'm a veggo but I understand that others have different choices. Interestingly most of the veggos/vegans I know are very pro BF especially as human milk is made for human babies.


----------



## WorkingWife

sapientia said:


> This isn't a discussion about the success of the techniques in the photos. Both women are (or were) breastfeeding. Which photo would you be comfortable with a client or your boss finding on the internet?
> 
> The woman in white *is* breastfeeding. I can find several other photos like this. That you can't really tell is called *discreet* (how I did it). Point made, I think.


I wanted a mans POV on this so I asked my H if it would bother him if a woman was breast feeding in public with her entire breast just hanging out and his answer was a smirk and "It depends on the woman." But that in his opinion it was inappropriate regardless. But it reinforces my point that whether women intend it or not, a naked breast is sexual to most men.

Then he told me a story from when he was playing tennis competitively and there was a major brouhaha at the local club during an important match because one guy's gorgeous wife was breast feeding on the sideline with her entire large, beautiful breast totally exposed. A guy from the team that lost went ballistic yelling at her because she had distracted him so much he felt that cost him the game. LOL. The husband got involved. I'm not sure but it may have even come to blows.


----------



## GusPolinski

GTdad said:


> I'm pretty Old School. Like Neanderthal State University old school. But I'm pretty damn surprised that there's still such an outcry and strong opinions regarding public breast-feeding. I can't for the life of me figure out what the big deal is.
> 
> A boob? Seen 'em before, and on top of it they're being used for the intended purpose. *It's not like I'm going to lose my appetite over a glimpse of one.*
> 
> I live in a college town, and drunk and/or loud kids are a far bigger problem than some mom quietly nursing her baby.


LOL. Quite the opposite, I'd imagine.

:smthumbup:


----------



## DanaS

WorkingWife said:


> But it reinforces my point that whether women intend it or not, a naked breast is sexual to most men.


And why is that our problem? Why should we, as women, care about whether men see certain parts of our body sexual or not? If just seeing a woman's breast makes a man get uncontrollably horny then that's his problem!


----------



## Blondilocks

"Anyway, I suspect we are getting the feminist cohort coming out for this and there's no winning with that lot. I'm a professional woman, breastfed and pumped. No problems. I suspect its the SAHMs who are up on this soap box and they dislike women like me, who hold them to a higher standard."

Well, now you've gone and done it. You have negated any position of superiority by categorizing and insulting people who have a viewpoint different from your own. You are not all that and a bag of chips. You aren't even the smartest bear in the woods.


----------



## WorkingWife

DanaS said:


> And why is that our problem? Why should we, as women, care about whether men see certain parts of our body sexual or not? If just seeing a woman's breast makes a man get uncontrollably horny then that's his problem!


Well it largely is the man's problem. It certainly was the mans problem in the sporting event I mentioned, LOL. 

But I think it's hypocritical for women, collectively, to try to have it both ways. If the only thing a breast is to women is a feeding machine, why do so many women get breast augmentation? Why wear push up bras and clothes that deliberately enhance and show off cleavage? 

Women use their breasts to attract and tantalize one day, then want to expose their entire breast in public and say "it's natural, move along, nothing to see here!" the next. It's sexual bait when I say it is, and it's just to feed when I say it is -- that seems unfair and unrealistic to me. 

In the culture in the U.S. it is not normal or appropriate for women to expose their entire breast in public, nor is it necessary to expose your entire breast to breast feed in public.

I'm with you that your waitress was out of line in every way that she treated you, including complaining about your breast feeding (unless maybe her boss told her to do that). But I also assume you did not have your entire breast hanging out in the middle of the restaurant.


----------



## Thundarr

WorkingWife said:


> But I think it's hypocritical for women, collectively, to try to have it both ways. If the only thing a breast is to women is a feeding machine, why do so many women get breast augmentation? Why wear push up bras and clothes that deliberately enhance and show off cleavage?
> 
> Women use their breasts to attract and tantalize one day, then want to expose their entire breast in public and say "it's natural, move along, nothing to see here!" the next. It's sexual bait when I say it is, and it's just to feed when I say it is -- that seems unfair and unrealistic to me.


I don't follow your logic. If I can show my boobs then why exactly is it my business if a women shows hers? It seems like women are the ones with something taken away.


----------



## DanaS

WorkingWife said:


> Well it largely is the man's problem. It certainly was the mans problem in the sporting event I mentioned, LOL.
> 
> But I think it's hypocritical for women, collectively, to try to have it both ways. If the only thing a breast is to women is a feeding machine, why do so many women get breast augmentation? Why wear push up bras and clothes that deliberately enhance and show off cleavage?
> 
> Women use their breasts to attract and tantalize one day, then want to expose their entire breast in public and say "it's natural, move along, nothing to see here!" the next. It's sexual bait when I say it is, and it's just to feed when I say it is -- that seems unfair and unrealistic to me.
> 
> In the culture in the U.S. it is not normal or appropriate for women to expose their entire breast in public, nor is it necessary to expose your entire breast to breast feed in public.
> 
> I'm with you that your waitress was out of line in every way that she treated you, including complaining about your breast feeding (unless maybe her boss told her to do that). But I also assume you did not have your entire breast hanging out in the middle of the restaurant.


What do you think about how it's okay for men to go around in public shirtless but in most places if a woman did she'd be arrested for indecent exposure? Isn't that hypocritical?

Or are you saying if you saw a topless woman walking around outside you'd call the cops and have her arrested for indecent exposure?


----------



## Thundarr

DanaS said:


> What do you think about how it's okay for men to go around in public shirtless but in most places if a woman did she'd be arrested for indecent exposure? Isn't that hypocritical?


The boob double standard is unfair to women rather than men so when a man complains about woman exposing breast in public it just seems odd to me. I don't get it at all. At least I can't attach sincere and logical motive to why they think it.


----------



## sapientia

Oh well. WorkingWife, I agree with you, fwiw. Like I said, some people live on a soapbox while others just live.


----------



## Thundarr

sapientia said:


> Oh well. WorkingWife, I agree with you, fwiw. Like I said, some people live on a soapbox while others just live.


It's worth something. WorkingWife and you both have opinions worth as much as anyone else's. What's the soapbox comment in reference to though? Seems like a passive aggressive jab.


----------



## sapientia

Thundarr - I'm referencing an earlier comment, I can't remember which post exactly.

I'm not passive-aggressive at all. I argue far too well to resort to such. I will point out, however, that you are mistaken. As someone who thinks for a living, and evaluates the ideas of others I know this: not all ideas or opinions are equal. Quite the opposite.

_The right to have a view is indeed equally shared, but this is does not imply the same for the idea itself. If all ideas are equal, then all ideas are worthless._


----------



## Thundarr

sapientia said:


> Thundarr - I'm referencing an earlier comment, I can't remember which post exactly.
> 
> I'm not passive-aggressive at all. I argue far too well to resort to such. I will point out, however, that you are mistaken. As someone who thinks for a living, and evaluates the ideas of others I know this: not all ideas or opinions are equal. Quite the opposite.
> 
> _The right to have a view is indeed equally shared, but this is does not imply the same for the idea itself. If all ideas are equal, then all ideas are worthless._


Thank you. Well said about the right to have an idea versus the legitimacy of the idea it's self.


----------



## Blondilocks

Thundarr said:


> I don't follow your logic. If I can show my boobs then why exactly is it my business if a women shows hers? It seems like women are the ones with something taken away.


With all due respect, Thundarr; no one is salivating to see your boobs (except possibly Mrs. Thundarr). Male boobs are not sexualized.

If this is a ploy to get women to walk around topless, you are SOL. Nipples can get sunburned, too.


----------



## Thundarr

Blondilocks said:


> With all due respect, Thundarr; no one is salivating to see your boobs (except possibly Mrs. Thundarr). Male boobs are not sexualized.
> 
> If this is a ploy to get women to walk around topless, you are SOL. Nipples can get sunburned, too.


Haha well I hope she does. Yes I can imagine a lot of women learned that nipple burn sucks from tanning beds. To me we've made boobs too sexualized by making them taboo. But I do get your point as well.


----------



## Lon

Blondilocks said:


> With all due respect, Thundarr; no one is salivating to see your boobs (except possibly Mrs. Thundarr). *Male boobs are not sexualized*.
> 
> If this is a ploy to get women to walk around topless, you are SOL. Nipples can get sunburned, too.


Try convincing that to Fabio and readers of the kind of the historical romance books he used to be on the covers of. Find me a single cover that does not show a man's bare chest.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

DanaS said:


> What do you think about how it's okay for men to go around in public shirtless but in most places if a woman did she'd be arrested for indecent exposure? Isn't that hypocritical?
> 
> Or are you saying if you saw a topless woman walking around outside you'd call the cops and have her arrested for indecent exposure?


I think fair is fair and either everyone should be allowed to go topless or nobody should, in the street. That doesn't mean it's polite, heck it's probably not polite for a man to walk through town shirtless.


----------



## Thundarr

ExiledBayStater said:


> I think fair is fair and either everyone should be allowed to go topless or nobody should, in the street. That doesn't mean it's polite, heck it's probably not polite for a man to walk through town shirtless.


I agree. Most public places need shirts. And to back step a little bit, if being a biological process builds a case for why it should be allowed anywhere (which I believe) then women's boobs being viewed as sexual builds a case for why women have more restrictions than we do when they're not feeding. Two double standards with opposing outcomes.


----------



## sapientia

Not to contradict my earlier point, as I will always hold that all public displays should respect others (breastfeeding, kissing, picking your nose... whatever) but I don't buy the "breasts are sexual" vs. "breasts are food" duality argument for why being discreet is required. The fact that breasts have more than one purpose isn't the reason we should choose to be discreet in breastfeeding.

Mouths are sexual but we don't cover them up, yes?

We use our mouths _discreetly_ in public, do we not? Well, most of us try to at least. 

We don't chew with our mouths open, or shout when a moderate voice will do. 

Why is this... when all the other uses of mouths are 'natural'? I suppose some will say that anyone can do whatever they like with their mouths in public but most civilized people will disagree.

The reason, again, is that in polite society, people moderate the use of their mouth to not offend others when it isn't necessary. At least I believe that emotionally healthy people do not go out of their way to do this.

Breastfeeding in public is an example of an activity that, yes, is natural but not everyone wants, nor needs to be exposed to it more than is required. As I posted before, in this case the waitress was clearly out of line, as the OP says she was being discreet and even turned away from others to feed her child.

It would be as if the waitress had interrupted a couple from exchanging a small kiss in the restaurant. Very different than if a couple was making out, full french kissing in same place. In this case, the waitress would be correct to ask the couple to stop.

Are we really so hyper in our sensitivities that people in this thread cannot make this simple distinction? Why choose the more blatant activity if it is simple to choose a modified behaviour that gets the same job done with little to no additional effort?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> Not to contradict my earlier point, as I will always hold that all public displays should respect others (breastfeeding, kissing, picking your nose... whatever).
> 
> That said, I don't buy the "breasts are sexual" vs. "breasts are food" duality argument for why being discreet is required.
> 
> Mouths are sexual but we don't cover them up, yes?
> 
> But at the same time, we use our mouths _discreetly_ in public, do we not? Well, most of us try to at least. We don't chew with our mouths open, or shout when a moderate voice will do.
> 
> Why... when all the other uses are 'natural'? I suppose some will say that anyone can do whatever they like with their mouths in public but most civilized people will disagree.
> 
> The reason, again, is that in polite society, people moderate the use of their mouth to not offend others when it isn't necessary.
> 
> Same for breastfeeding. As I posted before, in this case the waitress was clearly out of line, as the OP says she was being discreet and even turned away from others to feed her child.
> 
> It would be as if the waitress had interrupted a couple from exchanging a small kiss in the restaurant. Very different than if a couple was making out, full french kissing in same place. In this case, the waitress would be correct to ask the couple to stop.
> 
> Are we really so hyper in our sensitivities that people in this thread cannot make this simple distinction? Why choose the more blatant activity it is simple to choose a modified behaviour that gets the same job done with little to no additional effort?


From what I read, A07 experienced unkindness even when she was being discreet. Even on here, she took grief from someone telling her nothing less than a cover will do and if she can't use a cover, not to nurse in public. When people play nice and are still treated poorly or told they're wrong, sometimes they stop playing nice.


----------



## sapientia

ExiledBayStater said:


> From what I read, A07 experienced unkindness even when she was being discreet. Even on here, she took grief from someone telling her nothing less than a cover will do and if she can't use a cover, not to nurse in public. When people play nice and are still treated poorly or told they're wrong, sometimes they stop playing nice.


There was, is, and always will be a$$holes, EBS.

Do you start cutting people off in traffic because someone cuts you off?

If you do, eventually you will pay the price by either having an accident or being part of a road rage incident. Whether you are "right" won't make the wasted time or energy be any less.

The correct response for the OP was to inform the manager of the issue. This has already been discussed. Most people, myself included, agree that breastfeeding is legal, and being discreet about it is civilized. She was both, so the issue wasn't hers.

The waitress didn't get that, and should be corrected by her employer. The challenge is to not let go of one's own principals, or become an a$$hole in return to make one's point. People tend to be less sympathetic when two people are in a conflict, even if one person was clearly the one who started it.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> There was, is, and always will be a$$holes, EBS.
> 
> Do you start cutting people off in traffic because someone cuts you off?
> 
> If you do, eventually you will pay the price by either having an accident or being part of a road rage incident. Whether you are "right" won't make the wasted time or energy be any less.
> 
> The correct response for the OP was to inform the manager of the issue. This has already been discussed. Most people, myself included, agree that breastfeeding is legal, and being discreet about it is civilized. She was both, so the issue wasn't hers.
> 
> The waitress didn't get that, and should be corrected by her employer. The challenge is to not let go of one's own principals, or become an a$$hole in return to make one's point. People tend to be less sympathetic when two people are in a conflict, even if one person was clearly the one who started it.


Agreed. 

There is value in consideration for others, both intrinsically and because of its effect on collective image. If people associate nursing mothers with boobs hanging out in a restaurant, it's not the best thing the next time there is breastfeeding legislation up for consideration.

On the other hand, people like this waitress do the same disservice to people like you when you're trying to advocate for polite behavior.


----------



## WorkingWife

Thundarr said:


> I don't follow your logic. If I can show my boobs then why exactly is it my business if a women shows hers? It seems like women are the ones with something taken away.


You have boobs? I'm sorry...


----------



## sapientia

ExiledBayStater said:


> There is value in consideration for others, both intrinsically and because of its effect on collective image. If people associate nursing mothers with boobs hanging out in a restaurant, it's not the best thing the next time there is breastfeeding legislation up for consideration.
> 
> On the other hand, people like this waitress do the same disservice to people like you when you're trying to advocate for polite behavior.


No, she's doing a disservice to herself. What are "people like me"? Aren't most decent people "like me"?

Freedom is not "whatever, whenever, to whomever". Sadly, the US has just experienced the fallout of someone whose unchecked "freedom to express" himself resulted in terrible tragedy. Perhaps the outcome would have been different if someone had told that a$$hole "hey, you're being a racist d!ck and that's not okay".

An example I approve of:

We just had a guy fired from his job b/c he was talking sh!t about women to a female reporter. On his personal time, yes, but still an a$$hole. I completely agreed with the decision. I especially applaud the reporter for having the self-control to not whack him w/her microphone. If she had, the outcome wouldn't have been as severe for him, I'm sure.

Hydro One employee fired after FHRITP heckling of CityNews reporter Shauna Hunt - Trending - CBC News


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> No, she's doing a disservice to herself. What are "people like me"? Aren't most decent people "like me"?
> 
> .


I meant, " people trying to encourage discreet behavior while nursing."


----------



## Lila

After reading all 233 comments on this thread, I'm so glad that I do not give a f!ck what other people think. 

I took this from a blog entry I read a few weeks past....."We tip-toe our way through life by doing things in order to please others, not because it’s what we believe in. Eventually our actions, appearances, and lives become molded by how we think other people perceive us. Living a life that follows the ideal notions of what other people think is a terrible way to live. It makes you become the spineless spectator who waits for other people to take action first. It makes you become a follower."

If mothers want to nurse their babies in public discreetly or otherwise, then do it. There's always going to be somebody who's looking for a reason to be insulted. It's unavoidable. So as long as no one is being hurt, then march to the beat of your own drum. 

And for those who find publicly nursing mom's uncivilized, repeat this mantra "There's nothing to see, keep moving on. There's nothing to see, keep moving on." My 2 cents.


----------



## sapientia

In other words^ be selfish and don't give a sh!t about what other people think? Even if you could choose to do differently and get the same result? How American. Way to perpetuate the brash stereotype.

People certainly can do as you suggest, Lila. So long as they are prepared to not give a sh!t about the responses they get, themselves. "Rights" go both ways, afterall. Those who nurse publicly and aren't discreet had better be prepared for people staring or commenting, or perhaps even sneaking a phone photo. What you do in public is, well, public.

This is not about "tip toeing though life", that is a red herring to this argument. 

People *need* each other, and their good opinion to function in a polite society. 
Whether people like to admit it or not, this is true unless you are prepared to live in a remote cabin someplace off the grid. Had I been sitting next to DanaS breastfeeding in the restaurant, for example, I would have been quite prepared to let the manager know quietly that I thought his staff was out of line (and perhaps b/c she was discreet, someone did!). I would not have done so, however, if I felt DanaS was making a scene herself or up on a soap box on the issue.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

sapientia said:


> How American.


I was wondering if you were going to go there.


----------



## sapientia

Don't cherry pick. Look at the sentence immediately after. I lived in the US for almost a decade, btw. I'm not posting in ignorance. The stereotype is unfortunately believed in other parts of the world.

But, f*ck them too, right, Lila?


----------



## Lila

sapientia said:


> In other words^ be selfish and don't give a sh!t about what other people think? Even if you could choose to do differently and get the same result? How American. Way to perpetuate the brash stereotype.


You seem incredibly vested in this argument and it seems, by your comment above, that I struck a chord with you. 

I'm not really sure what you meant by "How American of you" as I am NOT American. I may live here now but I was born from a European Father and a South American mother and raised in non-"American" communities. Having said that, I have lived in other countries where the "right" or "polite" way of doing things was very different than what's considered "correct" in America. So if doing things the way that I believe to be true is selfish, then so be it. "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." 



sapientia said:


> People certainly can do as you suggest, Lila. So long as they are prepared to not give a sh!t about the responses they get, themselves. "Rights" go both ways, afterall. Those who nurse publicly and aren't discreet had better be prepared for people staring or commenting, or perhaps even sneaking a phone photo. What you do in public is, well, public.
> 
> This is not about "tip toeing though life", that is a red herring to this argument.
> 
> People *need* each other, and their good opinion to function in a polite society.
> Whether people like to admit it or not, this is true unless you are prepared to live in a remote cabin someplace off the grid. Had I been sitting next to DanaS breastfeeding in the restaurant, for example, I would have been quite prepared to let the manager know quietly that I thought his staff was out of line (and perhaps b/c she was discreet, someone did!). I would not have done so, however, if I felt DanaS was making a scene herself or up on a soap box on the issue.


Of course people can stare and make comments to nursing mothers and yes they can choose to take a picture and post it on social media. Personally, I think more mothers should post pictures of themselves nursing their children. I understand why they wouldn't but it would go a long way to help those who suffer from self-righteous indignation. 

See, self-righteous indignation is, by definition, a "conviction of being morally superior, or more righteous than others; smugly virtuous". Now many would argue that the mothers who choose to nurse without cover are self-righteous and I would argue that unless they are doing it with malicious or self-serving intent (i.e. not for the purpose of feeding the child but simply to flash their boobs for attention), then it's not self-righteous. However those that see nursing moms and become outraged and say things like "They should do it this way" or "They are not doing it the right way" are, by definition, suffering from self-righteous indignation. 

Self-righteous indignation is not real and it's based entirely on an individual's morals and values, which are based entirely on culture, upbringing, and belief system. Who are we to tell other's what they should believe? I sure as heck don't have the qualifications to force my belief system down someone else's throat and I sure as heck don't want that done to me. 

You said "People *need* each other, and their good opinion to function in a _polite_ society" but I think your definition of polite society may be very different from mine, or anyone else's. I've lived in enough different cities within the U.S. and abroad to have learned that polite society can mean many different things to many different people. 

I too think Dana S was within her right to get angry at her waitress for being so rude. But where you and I differ in opinion is that I also respect women like Anonymous7 and others out there who choose to nurse their children without cover. If I don't want to see it, it's a lot easier to avert my eyes and focus on my loving family than it is to make myself feel better by pointing out the errors of their ways.


----------



## Lon

sapientia said:


> Not to contradict my earlier point, as I will always hold that all public displays should respect others (breastfeeding, kissing, picking your nose... whatever) but I don't buy the "breasts are sexual" vs. "breasts are food" duality argument for why being discreet is required. The fact that breasts have more than one purpose isn't the reason we should choose to be discreet in breastfeeding.
> 
> Mouths are sexual but we don't cover them up, yes?
> 
> We use our mouths _discreetly_ in public, do we not? Well, most of us try to at least.
> 
> We don't chew with our mouths open, or shout when a moderate voice will do.
> 
> Why is this... when all the other uses of mouths are 'natural'? I suppose some will say that anyone can do whatever they like with their mouths in public but most civilized people will disagree.
> 
> The reason, again, is that in polite society, people moderate the use of their mouth to not offend others when it isn't necessary. At least I believe that emotionally healthy people do not go out of their way to do this.
> 
> Breastfeeding in public is an example of an activity that, yes, is natural but not everyone wants, nor needs to be exposed to it more than is required. As I posted before, in this case the waitress was clearly out of line, as the OP says she was being discreet and even turned away from others to feed her child.
> 
> It would be as if the waitress had interrupted a couple from exchanging a small kiss in the restaurant. Very different than if a couple was making out, full french kissing in same place. In this case, the waitress would be correct to ask the couple to stop.
> 
> Are we really so hyper in our sensitivities that people in this thread cannot make this simple distinction? Why choose the more blatant activity if it is simple to choose a modified behaviour that gets the same job done with little to no additional effort?


No it's about social conformity, the comfort zone of the majority determines what things are considered socially acceptable, and then there are a few people who take it upon themselves to be enforcers who insist upon making a big deal when an individual deviates outside of the public comfort zone in order to "correct" their behaviors. Those enforcers do this because either a) is the right thing to do b) to protect others or c) because it is a way for them to feel powerful or important. The problem in the case of public breastfeeding is that in north America in 2015, where exactly does the comfort zone lie, the majority of people are probably accepting of this, certainly when done discretely, so I find that anyone who tries to shame a breastfeeding mother is misguided and being petty (because I think the majority of society is not uncomfortable with it).


----------



## soccermom2three

I can't believe this is still a "thing" to debate.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

sapientia said:


> In other words^ be selfish and don't give a sh!t about what other people think? Even if you could choose to do differently and get the same result? How American. Way to perpetuate the brash stereotype.
> 
> People certainly can do as you suggest, Lila. So long as they are prepared to not give a sh!t about the responses they get, themselves. "Rights" go both ways, afterall. Those who nurse publicly and aren't discreet had better be prepared for people staring or commenting, or perhaps even sneaking a phone photo. What you do in public is, well, public.
> 
> This is not about "tip toeing though life", that is a red herring to this argument.
> 
> People *need* each other, and their good opinion to function in a polite society.
> Whether people like to admit it or not, this is true unless you are prepared to live in a remote cabin someplace off the grid.



Do we really need to discuss all of the things "polite society" didn't allow women to do, under the guise of "discreet" and "polite?"

I guess they were selfish in ignoring polite society. /sarcasm.

I wouldn't' be married to my wife, have children and I would most likely be dead if people didn't "make a scene" or "be selfish."


I see, we are basically in the same place when I left except there is a ban.


----------



## sapientia

Lila said:


> You seem incredibly vested in this argument and it seems, by your comment above, that I struck a chord with you.
> 
> I'm not really sure what you meant by "How American of you" as I am NOT American. I may live here now but I was born from a European Father and a South American mother and raised in non-"American" communities. Having said that, I have lived in other countries where the "right" or "polite" way of doing things was very different than what's considered "correct" in America. So if doing things the way that I believe to be true is selfish, then so be it. "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."


No, you haven't struck a chord, sorry to disappoint you. I do think there is an important, broader issue here that is beyond breastfeeding, hence my continuing to post on the subject.

I'm sorry you see this as a binary issue. I hope this attitude brings you happiness. There really isn't much to say to some who thinks that "anything goes" is acceptable.




> Of course people can stare and make comments to nursing mothers and yes they can choose to take a picture and post it on social media. Personally, I think more mothers should post pictures of themselves nursing their children. I understand why they wouldn't but it would go a long way to help those who suffer from self-righteous indignation.
> 
> See, self-righteous indignation is, by definition, a "conviction of being morally superior, or more righteous than others; smugly virtuous". Now many would argue that the mothers who choose to nurse without cover are self-righteous and I would argue that unless they are doing it with malicious or self-serving intent (i.e. not for the purpose of feeding the child but simply to flash their boobs for attention), then it's not self-righteous. However those that see nursing moms and become outraged and say things like "They should do it this way" or "They are not doing it the right way" are, by definition, suffering from self-righteous indignation.
> 
> Self-righteous indignation is not real and it's based entirely on an individual's morals and values, which are based entirely on culture, upbringing, and belief system. Who are we to tell other's what they should believe? I sure as heck don't have the qualifications to force my belief system down someone else's throat and I sure as heck don't want that done to me.


You are trying to polarize something that need not be. I am referring to a need for balance and a lack of polarization on an issue that, to your point, need not be a big deal. The only person bringing up self-righteous indignation is you. As I have said all along, women are free in my country to breastfeed in public. Most do it discreetly and those who don't are, from what I've seen, are issued in other ways or have so little else going on in their lives they feel the need to stand on this particular soap box.



> You said "People *need* each other, and their good opinion to function in a _polite_ society" but I think your definition of polite society may be very different from mine, or anyone else's. I've lived in enough different cities within the U.S. and abroad to have learned that polite society can mean many different things to many different people.


Indeed? Well, I've lived and worked on most continents. You are correct that 'polite society' means different things. You used a lot of words here, but you didn't actually say anything, except you think my definition of polite is different from most. Is it? Not in my circles and not to quite a few posters here. 

So. What do you think "polite" means in America, given you live there now? You haven't actually said. Do you truly think it means "do whatever, whenever, wherever" and damn the consequences?

We saw last week what that attitude gets people, taken to its extreme conclusion.



> But where you and I differ in opinion is that I also respect women like Anonymous7 and others out there who choose to nurse their children without cover. If I don't want to see it, it's a lot easier to avert my eyes and focus on my loving family than it is to make myself feel better by pointing out the errors of their ways.


Respectfully, you need to learn to read for understanding. Nowhere in my posts did I say I didn't respect women who choose to nurse without cover. Quite the opposite. I simply say that they must accept the consequences of that action in a society where many might not choose to avert their eyes, nor do they need to. As I pointed out earlier, what you do in public is.. public. With all the consequences that come with that choice.

Another example, perhaps. The right of a child to eat peanut butter at school, in public. Why should an entire classroom of children be denied a food they enjoy to satisfy a single person? Surely the "right" thing would be to remove the child from the offending stimulus? Really, even if everyone did their absolute best to avoid it, mistakes happen, right?

And when a mistake happens, who is held responsible? Not the parents, of course. The school, the teachers.

Now, my point is that I didn't send my son to school w/PB&J (even tho he loves it). Because it simply wasn't a big enough deal to argue about it. So my son gave up (and yes, he indeed did give something up, and so did the others) for his sensitive classmate. But he still got fed, right? So rather than make an issue of it, we chose to accommodate the boy w/the allergy issue, since it didn't cost us too much to do so. It was the polite thing to do.

So. Here's the flip side of that argument, however: Do you ever think for a moment that the parent of that child gave a thought that 25 other kids *were giving something up* so their child could be "safe"? I doubt it. This is the kind of entitled society we exist in.

My point? It cost my son much more to give up his PB&J than it costs a women to choose to breastfeed in public with discretion, to avoid offending those who didn't ask to see it. If a child can do it and see the point, so can a grown woman, IMO.

It's taboo to say, isn't it? But people in society do owe each other a certain amount of politeness and consideration. Frankly, if you have the *choice* to breastfeed discreetly in public, you should. Noone has yet given a good, rationalized reason why they shouldn't.

Now, if a woman gets caught out and must bare all to get the job done, should we avert our eyes? Yes, of course. But my point is that a woman who is in that situation isn't flaunting herself to make a point and THAT is what makes all the difference, IMO.

In any case, I've made my point. There are some of you who will agree and understand. Some will shrug and say "whatever". It takes a certain amount of maturity and emotional capacity, if you will, to be able to consider how one's actions might affect another. This is why we will, until there is a fundamental shift in how people treat each other, continue to see disrespectful waitresses, road rage, and taken to extreme -- tragedies like the one that happened last week. 

In the end, water finds its own level. If you are happy with the outcomes of your attitudes and behaviours, then great. If not, then I suggest you look toward other examples of behaviour and the results of such.


----------



## WorkingWife

DanaS said:


> What do you think about how it's okay for men to go around in public shirtless but in most places if a woman did she'd be arrested for indecent exposure? Isn't that hypocritical?
> 
> Or are you saying if you saw a topless woman walking around outside you'd call the cops and have her arrested for indecent exposure?


No on both counts.

I've already addressed both those questions previously in this thread.

To your first paragraph: Men and women aren't the same. Men don't have "breasts" in the same sense that women do, nor do people react to shirtless men the same way they do to shirtless women.

To your second paragraph: If I saw a topless woman walking around outside I probably wouldn't *do *anything. Other than maybe laughing and thinking "what a pig" to myself. The only thing I've ever called the police over was a home invasion. I certainly can't imagine calling them over some no-class woman making a fool of herself.


----------



## thefam

> Now, before the SAHM contingent freak out


Dayum. I'm a SAHM and I would never pull a boob out in public. I breastfed for 19 months and was able to work around it. But that's my standard and I don't seek to impose it on anybody else. I'm just not comfortable with it for me. Perhaps because my breasts are, indeed a source of sexual pleasure as well, both to me and my husband.

What does being a SAHM have to do with it?

I'm not for an "everybody do as they please" type society, although I understand the sentiment. Too many people don't know where to draw the line. Like that Storm Roof guy. If you want a society like that you have to suffer the consequences. They keep getting worse and worse, don't they?


----------



## southbound

thefam said:


> Dayum. I'm a SAHM and I would never pull a boob out in public. I breastfed for 19 months and was able to work around it. But that's my standard and I don't seek to impose it on anybody else. I'm just not comfortable with it for me. Perhaps because my breasts are, indeed a source of sexual pleasure as well, both to me and my husband.
> 
> What does being a SAHM have to do with it?
> 
> I'm not for an "everybody do as they please" type society, although I understand the sentiment. Too many people don't know where to draw the line. Like that Storm Roof guy. If you want a society like that you have to suffer the consequences. They keep getting worse and worse, don't they?


Makes sense to me. The women in my area apparently share your standard. I don't think I've ever seen anyone breast feeding in public, so people in my neck of the woods either go to a more private area, or they are very discrete about it. 

As you mentioned, women's breasts are a source of sexual pleasure, so it's strange when people go as far as to suggest women could go topless in public just like men and it would be no different. I'm sure all the men around wouldn't notice at all.

And yes, they keep getting worse and worse. Very sad.


----------



## sapientia

thefam said:


> Dayum. I'm a SAHM and I would never pull a boob out in public. I breastfed for 19 months and was able to work around it. But that's my standard and I don't seek to impose it on anybody else. I'm just not comfortable with it for me. Perhaps because my breasts are, indeed a source of sexual pleasure as well, both to me and my husband.
> 
> What does being a SAHM have to do with it?
> 
> I'm not for an "everybody do as they please" type society, although I understand the sentiment. Too many people don't know where to draw the line. Like that Storm Roof guy. If you want a society like that you have to suffer the consequences. They keep getting worse and worse, don't they?


You're right, being a SAHM has nothing to do with it. Sorry, comment retracted.


----------



## Lon

southbound said:


> Makes sense to me. The women in my area apparently share your standard. I don't think I've ever seen anyone breast feeding in public, so people in my neck of the woods either go to a more private area, or they are very discrete about it.
> 
> As you mentioned, women's breasts are a source of sexual pleasure, so it's strange when people go as far as to suggest women could go topless in public just like men and it would be no different. I'm sure all the men around wouldn't notice at all.
> 
> And yes, they keep getting worse and worse. Very sad.


As a man, my nipples are a source of sexual pleasure, but I'm allowed to bare them in public. I don't even have the responsibility of having to breastfeed (what better genuine bona fide reason for it to be acceptable for expose them). The whole idea of covering boobs is completely backwards.


----------



## southbound

Next stop, The Twilight Zone.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

southbound said:


> Next stop, The Twilight Zone.


Because of breastfeeding?


----------



## southbound

ExiledBayStater said:


> Because of breastfeeding?


Not because of breastfeeding itself, but just some of the comments throughout the thread. Sometimes I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone compared to when I was growing up.


----------



## Anonymous07

sapientia said:


> As I said, some people are simply out to make a point vs behaving in a way that is respectful for everyone. In this case, we're entitled to make you as uncomfortable as you make us by staring and making a comment about how you could be more discreet (true). Making comments and staring are legal also.
> 
> No one is "making a point", they are feeding their baby. If you have a problem with it, don't look. It's very simple. If you want to stare, go ahead. I just smile at the people who see me nursing.
> 
> Since I breastfed my own son, I know exactly how easy it is to choose to be more respectful of the experience of others. Also my own... I didn't want people to gawk either. Guess I'm just less of an exhibitionist than some.
> 
> Discreet clothing is available for purchase. It's comfortable. I used it. I breastfed in summer so I didn't cover my son w/a blanket. Perhaps you cannot afford the clothing? Although anyone who can afford to eat out and breastfeed in public should also be able to purchase blouses for lactation.
> 
> Nursing clothing are not something I care to spend extra money on and I personally find them ugly and outrageously priced. I wore regular stretchy tank tops under my clothes, deep v-neck shirt, button down shirts, and so on that were breastfeeding friendly. I was not some "exhibitionist", but no matter what I did there were still people who did not like me nursing in public. That's not my problem and I don't care what they think.
> 
> Anyway, I suspect we are getting the feminist cohort coming out for this and there's no winning with that lot. I'm a professional woman, breastfed and pumped. No problems. I suspect its the SAHMs who are up on this soap box and they dislike women like me, who hold them to a higher standard.


Um, good for you? 

Women can breastfeed however they choose to. It's not about working women vs SAHMs, or any other stupid stereotype you want to throw out there. 

Back in the day, it was not okay for there to be interracial relationships and no one wanted to see them together in public. It also was not seen as "okay" to see homosexuals together in public either. People didn't want to see them, but those ideas change thankfully. People realize later that those previous notions they had were wrong and as they are exposed more, it becomes more normal. It's "okay" to bottle feed a baby, but for some reason not okay to feed a baby the way they were biologically meant to be fed. They're just boobs. 

I'll just continue to breastfeed how I see fit. I nursed my son at work with no issues. My boss never batted an eye while we met up to talk about my hours. Breastfeeding should be that normal, but some people have an issue. I'm sure eventually people will come around, but people need to just nurse how ever they want to and not hide it. Breastfeeding mothers need to be supported, not shamed.


----------



## bkyln309

Since many of you seem to have put breastfeeding into a spiritual and divine category. Carry it with you and worship it always. its so pure. mommymilkcreations dot com


----------



## lucy999

sapientia said:


> Discreet clothing is available for purchase. It's comfortable. I used it. I breastfed in summer so I didn't cover my son w/a blanket. Perhaps you cannot afford the clothing? Although anyone who can afford to eat out and breastfeed in public should also be able to purchase blouses for lactation.


Okay, now THIS is highly offensive. Super duper offensive.:frown2:


----------



## Maricha75

lucy999 said:


> Okay, now THIS is highly offensive. Super duper offensive.:frown2:


Agreed. Those stupid clothes only go up to a certain size... and my size, at t h e time, was NOT included. Same with the bras. I tried nursing bras. Those were THE MOST uncomfortable things I have EVER worn. And that's saying something, considering (tmi, sorry!) I would chafe/break out EVERY time I wore pantyhose! I would go back to THAT before having to wear those blasted contraptions again! Not that I could find one that fit me properly, anyway.


----------



## Maricha75

Also, @sapientia, you need to keep in mind that not all of us had the same experience you did. Yes, I was a SAHM. Yes, I breastfed my children. Yes, I fed them in public. But what some, and I am not saying you, specifically, seem to not comprehend is that not all women CAN pump. I tried. Even as a SAHM, I tried. Couldn't produce enough for a bottle. Not even a 4oz bottle. 

As I stated in my previous post, I couldn't find any clothes in my size, specifically for lactation. But looking at the ones that were smaller sizes, I wouldn't have bothered anyway. They were that ugly. I never used a cover, either. I did, however, keep the bottom of my shirt close to my baby's face, covering nearly every part of my breast as I could. Even then, if my baby pulled at the shirt, MY CLOTHES were not my concern. My child was. And my husband was right there, watching what transpired. You know what's funny? The only person who even remotely suggested that I should hide it, anywhere, was my mother-in-law. No one else cared. No one else even seemed to notice, unless they got really close. Even discreet women are subject to the shaming because there ARE some who feel women shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed in public, no matter what. They assume women can always pump and bottle feed and that if they don't it is because they are inconsiderate and lazy. I don't think I have seen comments THAT bad, here... yet. But I HAVE seen them elsewhere. And as long as that mentality exists, breastfeeding will be taboo. And as long as there is a mentality of "well, I was able to do it this way, so everyone should be able", you WILL get some who do it, just to make a statement. We are not all the same. We do not all have the same circumstances. Yes, you were able to pump. Great for you. I was not. And that was EQUALLY ok. My babies were fed, that is all that mattered.


----------



## Starstarfish

I'd love to know if the people who keep screaming "OMG cover it up" are that offended when a baby isn't attached to the breast in question. Do you ask random teenagers if they can't afford longer shorts or more clothing? "Are three inch crop tops cheaper, dear, here's $1, you probably need it."

As for the sexual pleasure argument. Some people have foot fetishes, should we stop wearing sandals in public out of concern the guy in the booth behind us might be pitching a tent over it? Do we need some basic understandings of decorum, of course. But do I really need to live my entire life based on this paralyzing concern a man might be stimulated by something? I mean - isn't that why women in some countries wear burkas?


----------



## Starstarfish

Also, if someone has a disease that is so communicable and contagious people are worried about a single drop of breast milk on a table somewhere - PS, you are already screwed. If they sneeze, you are doomed. 

But, no, let's continue to be squeamish about something literally as old as time, and then continue to wonder if our modern "sentiments" aren't why you know - 1/3 of the population is now obese or overweight. When you are born and immediately start on powdered GMO soy and corn syrup because your mother is paranoid about offending that lady in Applebees or being seen as barbaric and disgusting. 

And to the perfect Moms who always timed their feedings as to not -ever- -ever- need to feed in public, and probably always wear heels, have their makeup done, and other marks of perfection. News flash, if everyone here was so perfect, you wouldn't be on here.


----------



## sapientia

Good to see the Hyperbole contingent out in full force. Noone here has been "screaming" anything.

The soap box is getting full. Must be a slow news day.


----------



## Starstarfish

Hyperbole doesn't change the basic message that the complaints listed from a logical and scientific stand point as ridiculous. 

But, please, let's debate a discussion of my use of "screaming" as the most hyperbolic thing said on this thread.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I'll just continue to breastfeed how I see fit. I nursed my son at work with no issues. My boss never batted an eye while we met up to talk about my hours. Breastfeeding should be that normal, but some people have an issue. I'm sure eventually people will come around, but people need to just nurse how ever they want to and not hide it. Breastfeeding mothers need to be supported, not shamed.


I nursed both my kids. My last one I nursed regularly at work but I had an office door to close. I can't say I ever did it in public nor ever wanted or needed to. Honestly, my milk wouldn't have let down if I had tried to nurse in public...to me it was something private between me and my babies and I liked the private time to cuddle them. 

However, in my opinion, if you want to nurse in public... its perfectly normal and fine as long as you understand that there will always be some azz-backwards, slack-jawed troglodyte looking at you funny.

To me, nudity really isn't a big deal...nudity and sexuality are two very different things and its an unfortunate North American tendency to confuse the two.

That being said, I'm seriously sick of celebrities that can't figure out how to get out of a car without exposing 3 inches deep into their babyshooter.


----------



## sapientia

Starstarfish said:


> Hyperbole doesn't change the basic message that the complaints listed from a logical and scientific stand point as ridiculous.
> 
> But, please, let's debate a discussion of my use of "screaming" as the most hyperbolic thing said on this thread.


Noise. And an inability to admit you erred in your argumentation. You made no scientific arguments and your "logic" is dubious. You just, in parlance, just tried to make noise to make a point. Urusai. Ineffective.


----------



## sapientia

EnigmaGirl said:


> However, in my opinion, if you want to nurse in public... its perfectly normal and fine as long as you understand that there will always be some azz-backwards, slack-jawed troglodyte looking at you funny.


Precisely. So why do it when one has a choice? Such a simple concept, really.


----------



## Starstarfish

sapientia said:


> Noise. And an inability to admit you erred in your argumentation. You made no scientific arguments and your "logic" is dubious. You just, in parlance, just tried to make noise to make a point. Urusai. Ineffective.


I just appreciate when I apparently encourage people to start bringing out the big words to prove they are smarter than me. Even to the point of needing to bring out the insults in either foreign languages or really obscure nerd references. 

So are you telling me to shut up in Japanese, or are you calling me a carrion eating desert lizard from Tatooine, because I wasn't 100% on how to interpret "Urusai." 

It's cool, though, I'm a classless nerf-herder and I know it. It's clearly why I breastfed in public.


----------



## Nynaeve

sapientia said:


> Precisely. So why do it when one has a choice? Such a simple concept, really.


Maybe we don't care. 

Also... this is one thing I don't get about your argument. It's built almost entirely around the concept that nursing mothers are supposed to be considerate of the sensibilities of others. We're supposed to be discrete so as not to offend others, because that's what is polite and because being polite is what living in society is all about.

But the last time I checked being an "azz-backwards, slack-jawed troglodyte looking at you funny" is no more socially acceptable or polite or considerate of the sensibilities of others than breastfeeding is. In fact, where I come from, it's considered extremely rude to stare at or ogle someone.

So... why do the people who are inconsiderate of a nursing mother's rights and privacy get a pass here? Why don't you focus your efforts on telling them be polite, to stop staring, to avert their eyes because that's the polite thing to do? I mean, you care ever so much about people being polite and considerate to one another, don't you?


The truth is that people who are made uncomfortable by breastfeeding are in the minority. Most of society is either supportive or completely indifferent. And since social norms are determined by the majority... I'm afraid those of you trying to make an argument based on social standards and politeness are simply wrong.


----------



## sapientia

Nynaeve said:


> So... why do the people who are inconsiderate of a nursing mother's rights and privacy get a pass here? Why don't you focus your efforts on telling them be polite, to stop staring, to avert their eyes because that's the polite thing to do? I mean, you care ever so much about people being polite and considerate to one another, don't you?


So.. why don't you go back and read my earlier posts about this, where I already addressed this, instead of me wasting time pointing out how wrong you are about who I support and who gets a pass.


----------



## sapientia

Starstarfish said:


> So are you telling me to shut up in Japanese, or are you calling me a carrion eating desert lizard from Tatooine, because I wasn't 100% on how to interpret "Urusai."


Totally up to you, doll.


----------



## Anonymous07

EnigmaGirl said:


> I nursed both my kids. My last one I nursed regularly at work but I had an office door to close. I can't say I ever did it in public nor ever wanted or needed to. Honestly, my milk wouldn't have let down if I had tried to nurse in public...to me it was something private between me and my babies and I liked the private time to cuddle them.
> 
> However, in my opinion, if you want to nurse in public... its perfectly normal and fine as long as you understand that there will always be some azz-backwards, slack-jawed troglodyte looking at you funny.
> 
> To me, nudity really isn't a big deal...nudity and sexuality are two very different things and its an unfortunate North American tendency to confuse the two.


Just because you were too uncomfortable to nurse in public, which I am sorry you felt you needed to hide, does not mean everyone else should feel the same way you do. My milk let down any time a baby cried, mine or not. I never had the issue you did. 

If someone wants to stare, then they can. I really don't care. I'm not doing anything extreme or rude, as I am actually using my breasts for their intended purpose, so the few people who are upset by it can get over it. It's not my responsibility to make sure every stranger feels comfortable, but it is my responsibility to feed and nurture my son. If they don't want to see a breastfeeding mother, they can turn their head and look away. The only way North America will get over this stupid issue is if they have more exposure to it and then begin to see it as normal, instead of something that has to be hidden.


----------



## Thundarr

sapientia said:


> Precisely. So why do it when one has a choice? Such a simple concept, really.


There's one concept of feeding a baby when it's hungry which is simple. Another concept of not caring about someone breastfeeding around us because it's none of our business. That's simple too.


----------



## southbound

Anonymous07 said:


> Just because you were too uncomfortable to nurse in public, which I am sorry you felt you needed to hide, does not mean everyone else should feel the same way you do. My milk let down any time a baby cried, mine or not. I never had the issue you did.



I don't believe she wrote that she tried to hide, but I understood that she never wanted to or needed to do it in public. She viewed it as a private thing between her and her babies, and she enjoyed the private time to cuddle them. It doesn't mean everyone should feel the same as she does, but everyone else can certainly feel that way if they want to.


----------



## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> I don't believe she wrote that she tried to hide, but I understood that she never wanted to or needed to do it in public. She viewed it as a private thing between her and her babies, and she enjoyed the private time to cuddle them. It doesn't mean everyone should feel the same as she does, but everyone else can certainly feel that way if they want to.


"Honestly, my milk wouldn't have let down if I had tried to nurse in public...to me it was something private between me and my babies"

She wrote her milk would not let down if she tried and it was something private for them. I think that's kind of sad, to only be able nurse hidden private somewhere. I took my son all over the place and nursed whenever and wherever we were, at the beach, store, restaurant, etc. Having a baby didn't slow down or stop life from happening, as it was easy to nurse on the go. I have a SIL who felt similar to her and she never went out much because she was too afraid to nurse in public. I found that to be sad.

She has every right to her feelings, but it's not okay to say people who feel differently from her are wrong or inconsiderate because we can nurse in public without feeling weird about it.


----------



## southbound

Anonymous07 said:


> "Honestly, my milk wouldn't have let down if I had tried to nurse in public...to me it was something private between me and my babies"
> 
> She wrote her milk would not let down if she tried and it was something private for them. I think that's kind of sad, to only be able nurse hidden private somewhere. I took my son all over the place and nursed whenever and wherever we were, at the beach, store, restaurant, etc. Having a baby didn't slow down or stop life from happening, as it was easy to nurse on the go. I have a SIL who felt similar to her and she never went out much because she was too afraid to nurse in public. I found that to be sad.
> 
> She has every right to her feelings, but it's not okay to say people who feel differently from her are wrong or inconsiderate because we can nurse in public without feeling weird about it.


That's certainly your right to think it was sad, you have the right to your feelings, but if she did feel a little weird about nursing in public and wanted it to be a private thing, that's ok too. Honestly, there are some things that I have the "right" to do, but I don't particularly care for doing them in public, and I'm more comfortable not.


----------



## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> That's certainly your right to think it was sad, you have the right to your feelings, but if she did feel a little weird about nursing in public and wanted it to be a private thing, that's ok too. Honestly, there are some things that I have the "right" to do, but I don't particularly care for doing them in public, and I'm more comfortable not.


Then that is good for you, but it doesn't mean other people are wrong for choosing to exercise that right. I'm not going to become a hermit just because I'm breastfeeding. It never made it any less personal or private for me just because I nursed at the beach or some other public place. No matter where I fed my son, it was always a great bonding experience and I look forward to nursing my next baby whenever and wherever we are.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Just because you were too uncomfortable to nurse in public, which I am sorry you felt you needed to hide, does not mean everyone else should feel the same way you do. My milk let down any time a baby cried, mine or not. I never had the issue you did.


You have a reading comprehension issue. I never said anything about feeling uncomfortable. I said that it was private time between me and my children. 

My milk wouldn't let down in a number of situations. For instance, if I got out of a intense meeting right before, I'd have to relax for a few minutes, etc. Its nothing about being uncomfortable...its about being in the right frame of mind. Nursing for me was a beautiful, private time to spend with my babies. 

With anything I do...although I certainly don't care about what others think...but I also don't feel the need to do things to garner unwanted attention. I worked full-time and led a busy life with both of my babies. I nursed both of them for over a year while working and never once needed to nurse them in the middle of a crowd.

That being said, I have no issue with nursing women and certainly think its fine that you can nurse where and when you please. You want to nurse your baby in the middle of a parade, good for you. Its simply about recognizing that there are young people, men, etc around who might not be equal to your highly evolved state and are going to watch you and may make comments.

If you're ok with that...do whatever the hell you want to do.


----------



## southbound

Anonymous07 said:


> Then that is good for you, but it doesn't mean other people are wrong for choosing to exercise that right. I'm not going to become a hermit just because I'm breastfeeding. It never made it any less personal or private for me just because I nursed at the beach or some other public place. No matter where I fed my son, it was always a great bonding experience and I look forward to nursing my next baby whenever and wherever we are.


Again, that is fine that you feel that way. I don't think people shouldn't breast feed in public; I hope I didn't give that impression. I'm just defending women who prefer doing it in private; that is their right just as much as it is to do it in public. 

It seems like we want to defend women who breast feed in public, but if one chooses to do it in private, it's almost as though we need to feel sad for her and convince her she's missing out; I don't think that is the case. 

That may not have been your intent, and my comments may not have come out as i intended, but some of the comments on this thread in general left me scratching my head and I really didn't know how to comment. I live in a rural area that I often refer to as Mayberry, so I guess I see things a bit conservative.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> She wrote her milk would not let down if she tried and it was something private for them. I think that's kind of sad, to only be able nurse hidden private somewhere. I took my son all over the place and nursed whenever and wherever we were, at the beach, store, restaurant, etc. Having a baby didn't slow down or stop life from happening, as it was easy to nurse on the go. I have a SIL who felt similar to her and she never went out much because she was too afraid to nurse in public. I found that to be sad.


lol...Considering that I have a very demanding career in a male-oriented field...its pretty fair to say that I'm no wilting-flower. 

I seriously get tired of the pearl-clutching mommy crowd who start creating strawman arguments whenever someone doesn't 100% validate their right-fighting positions on child rearing.

I worked when my kids were small. I enjoyed having private time with them nursing. It had zero to do with hiding...nor did I say ANY such thing. 

I never wanted nor needed to nurse in public. It certainly wasn't because I think there's something wrong with nursing...clearly I did it with both children. Its because I considered it something special and private between me and my babies. Nursing was often the one quiet break I got in my busy day to simply see my babys' faces...to cuddle them...to have quiet space with them. I certainly didn't need that to be interrupted or polluted by being in a crowd of people.

As I said before, if you want to nurse in public...you have every right to do so. When I see a woman nursing in public, I don't even give it a second thought. Its her private business. 

However, nursing in public, for me, was unnecessary and I didn't feel some female-crusader need to do it because I could. I'm not interested in proving a point and violating my right to privacy in the process. I live my life by what works for me and my family. If you don't agree with that...oh well.... but have the intellectual honesty not to put words into my mouth and don't assume you know my personality type because I can assure you that you don't.


----------



## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> Again, that is fine that you feel that way. I don't think people shouldn't breast feed in public; I hope I didn't give that impression. I'm just defending women who prefer doing it in private; that is their right just as much as it is to do it in public.


I guess I don't understand why you feel you need to defend women who nurse in private?

No one gives them a dirty look or any thing similar. If they want to only nurse in private, then they can. No one has said not to. The only thing that has been said throughout this thread is that breastfeeding in public is not wrong either.


----------



## Anonymous07

intheory said:


> Well, we've all made a lot of good points. I've seen something I agreed with, and disagreed with, in every post.
> 
> I'm going to stick my neck out here. Please be gentle with me! And this isn't directed to anyone here on the thread. But I'm starting to think it's the elephant in the room that we aren't talking about:
> 
> If you are a woman and you are out in public with your boyfriend/husband/date; and a woman exposes part/all of her breast to feed her child - there is always the thought that your SO is enjoying looking at that woman's breast; even just a quick furtive glimpse. And that he might get just a bit of a thrill doing it.
> 
> I've never felt upset about my husband looking at another woman. I know he isn't blind, so yes, he'll probably look if there is a woman bearing it all, but it doesn't mean he wants to go after her. Heck, I know that I notice other men as well. It's just human nature to an extent. Also, if you have ever seen a woman nursing in public, most(99% or so) show less skin than a woman in a bathing suit or tiny clothing.
> 
> Now if the guy was staring or oogling the nursing mom, that is something different. Then the woman should really have a problem with what her husband is doing, not the other woman. It doesn't matter what other women do. It is my husband's actions that matter.
> 
> I've read here on TAM over and over how women just don't get how sexy breasts are to guys, and no (to guys) breasts aren't just "babyfeeders"
> 
> So, it's not too far a stretch to see how having other women "attract" (?wrong word?) your SO's sexual attention by flashing their breast(s), even very quickly as they make adjustments to nursing - could bother a lot of women.
> 
> To you guys that would never see a lactating breast as sexual, I commend you - I just think you are in the minority.
> 
> Also, like my experience at the soccer match, where the guys were making a bit of a show of trying to see as much as possible while the lady was breastfeeding her baby? This makes an uncomfortable, somewhat sexual situation for other people who are in the near vicinity.
> 
> Just wanted to comment on the sexual aspect of this, that I think we are all politely trying to downplay. It does exist, and I think it's what makes so many people uncomfortable.
> 
> Apologizing in advance, for any unintended offense I may have given.


The US has definitely sexualized breasts, but the best way to overcome such an issue is through exposure to normalize the simple act of breastfeeding. The more it happens, the less "out there" people will think it is. There are a lot of things that were seen as "weird" or "crazy" back in the day, that are seen as normal today. 

I also plan on teaching my son about breastfeeding and will not hide nursing from him. He'll see me nurse his sibling, as it's just not a big deal. He has seen my SIL nurse her daughter, as it's just a normal way of feeding a baby. Sometimes he pretends to nurse his stuffed animal, which I think is adorable. I openly nursed my son in front of the 2 boys I had previously nannied when I saw them at the mall. They asked a couple questions, which I answered simply/age appropriately and then they moved on to another topic because it was never made into an issue. At some point, breastfeeding will be as normal as bottle feeding.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I also plan on teaching my son about breastfeeding and will not hide nursing from him. He'll see me nurse his sibling, as it's just not a big deal. He has seen my SIL nurse her daughter, as it's just a normal way of feeding a baby. Sometimes he pretends to nurse his stuffed animal, which I think is adorable. I openly nursed my son in front of the 2 boys I had previously nannied when I saw them at the mall. They asked a couple questions, which I answered simply/age appropriately and then they moved on to another topic because it was never made into an issue. At some point, breastfeeding will be as normal as bottle feeding.


Good luck with the crusade.


----------



## Maricha75

EnigmaGirl said:


> Good luck with the crusade.


No luck needed. My oldest son saw me breastfeed his little sister and brother, openly. He was with Mr at doctor's appointments, shopping at grocery stores, the mall, quick trips to bookstires and Starbucks, even just going for walks. And my daughter saw me breastfeed her little brother as well. Sadly, my youngest has not seen it as much as his siblings. However, I have definitely made it a point to explain to each if them that there is NOTHING wrong with a mother feeding her baby in that manner, and nothing wrong with her doing it wherever the baby is hungry. She doesn't have to leave the room if she doesn't want to. My oldest is now 14. The other two are 7 and 8.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> No luck needed. My oldest son saw me breastfeed his little sister and brother, openly. He was with Mr at doctor's appointments, shopping at grocery stores, the mall, quick trips to bookstires and Starbucks, even just going for walks. And my daughter saw me breastfeed her little brother as well. Sadly, my youngest has not seen it as much as his siblings. However, I have definitely made it a point to explain to each if them that there is NOTHING wrong with a mother feeding her baby in that manner, and nothing wrong with her doing it wherever the baby is hungry. She doesn't have to leave the room if she doesn't want to. My oldest is now 14. The other two are 7 and 8.


What some in this discussion are failing to grasp is that what works for you isn't applicable to all. 

You want to be right? You are....FOR YOU. Lots of women will choose a path that works for them...get over it.


----------



## Anonymous07

EnigmaGirl said:


> Good luck with the crusade.


:scratchhead:

Um, no. I'm not going out of my way to do anything different or purposefully trying to make a point of anything. I'm just living my life. The only thing I am doing is not going out of my way to hide the act of breastfeeding, which is more work than just feeding the baby wherever we are. I just simply feed my child. 



intheory said:


> Anon07,
> 
> You are forming the attitude of some of the people in the next generation.
> 
> And that's how things change. I think you are handling it beautifully.
> 
> But the future isn't here, yet.
> 
> In the meantime there is going to be a sexualized vibe around breastfeeding.
> 
> If I could wave a magic wand and make it go away, I would, that's for sure.


Yes, the future is not here yet, but how do things eventually change if you keeping hiding it? 

I love seeing other women nurse in public. It's such a sweet thing to see and always makes me miss nursing. I look forward to being able to nurse my next baby.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Um, no. I'm not going out of my way to do anything different or purposefully trying to make a point of anything. I'm just living my life. The only thing I am doing is not going out of my way to hide the act of breastfeeding, which is more work than just feeding the baby wherever we are. I just simply feed my child.


lol....No, you're not trying to right-fight and critique others who don't share your crusader strategy on breastfeeding in public. 

Anyway, this thread has just gotten self-righteous to the point of silliness....last post for me.


----------



## Maricha75

EnigmaGirl said:


> What some in this discussion are failing to grasp is that what works for you isn't applicable to all.
> 
> You want to be right? You are....FOR YOU. Lots of women will choose a path that works for them...get over it.


Not sure what my post had to do with your reply. I am not saying there is anything wrong with a mom choosing how or where to feed her own child. My comment was directed more toward the apparent tone of your post. It had t get e vibe of "yea... good luck with that" in a sarcastic tone. If that was not your intent, then I apologize for my assumption. 

I also don't think it is right to look down on ANY mother for feeding her child how/when/where she chooses. That is my real issue here. We all choose how we care for our children, and we are all different.


----------



## southbound

Anonymous07 said:


> I guess I don't understand why you feel you need to defend women who nurse in private?
> 
> No one gives them a dirty look or any thing similar. If they want to only nurse in private, then they can. No one has said not to. The only thing that has been said throughout this thread is that breastfeeding in public is not wrong either.


I thought you felt sad for EnigmaGirl because she wanted to do it in private, as though you'd like to convince her what a magical thing she missed by not doing it in public.


----------



## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> I thought you felt sad for EnigmaGirl because she wanted to do it in private, as though you'd like to convince her what a magical thing she missed by not doing it in public.


No. I don't care how she chooses to live her life, but it would be nice if she would get off her high horse.


----------



## sapientia

_Respect for ourselves guides our morals, respect for others guides our manners._


----------



## southbound

Anonymous07 said:


> No. I don't care how she chooses to live her life, but it would be nice if she would get off her high horse.


I must have trouble interpreting written words. I looked back over her posts, and I didn't see anything that made me think she was on a high horse. She stated several times that she thought breast feeding in public was fine if that's what a woman wanted to do, but she never had the need or desire to do it in public, and she enjoyed the private time with her baby.


----------



## Starstarfish

sapientia said:


> _Respect for ourselves guides our morals, respect for others guides our manners._


So is public breast feeding ill mannered or immoral? Is that about people here?

And which was insulting me with clever witticisms? Or is it only rude if the other person deserved more respect? Who determines that?

Sorry, calling others names then being all half vague implying in some master of passive aggressive way other people are rude kind of makes me lol.


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## sapientia

Starstarfish said:


> So is public breast feeding ill mannered or immoral? Is that about people here?
> 
> And which was insulting me with clever witticisms? Or is it only rude if the other person deserved more respect? Who determines that?
> 
> Sorry, calling others names then being all half vague implying in some master of passive aggressive way other people are rude kind of makes me lol.


Noise. Still not interested. Go make angry elsewhere.


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## Starstarfish

So if someone disagrees you their opinion is "noise" and they are "making angry."

Seems legit to me, and if you aren't interested, why respond? Must be all those manners.


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## pidge70

I don't understand why this debate is even still going on. This thread was started by a troll who is probably deriving a lot of satisfaction from this ongoing arguing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

EnigmaGirl said:


> Anyway, this thread has just gotten self-righteous to the point of silliness....last post for me.


Same. We'll let the latecomers sort out what they think they've missed, as this party is long over.


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## Lila

EnigmaGirl said:


> Anyway, this thread has just gotten self-righteous to the point of silliness....last post for me.


LOL, this thread started getting self-righteous waaaay back at post #46. It was silly from the get go as it was started by a troll.


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## thefam

intheory said:


> DanaS is a troll???


Yep. She was banned a week or so ago, and the mods said she had several other user names, one of which posted as a male. I wish he would have said who the male user name was. That would have been interesting.


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## SimplyAmorous

Since all is lining up to give their thoughts on exposing a little breast for breastfeeding in public.. I am rather neutral.. it's not something I would be offended by.. it's natural.. it's good for the child. but yet.. I would be one to seek a private place.. and be considerate of those who may not be as comfortable with it.. .

I tried it shortly with 2nd son..(about 2 months) I didn't care for it.. it hurt!! ...I told myself If I kept this up...the kid would starve as I felt it slowed me down too much .... give me the bottle please! 

Looking back.. I remember the 1st introduction I had with a Mother openly exposing her breast ...to breastfeed.. it was in our living room...she was very comfortable doing this , it was quick...the latching on.. it didn't bother me .. it wasn't something I was used to seeing.. but ya know.. not a big deal.. nor would my husband think so .... we understand it's natural... even good.. I have always said those MOMs are better than me.. cause I didn't want to breastfeed !

Had I chosen to breastfeed though...I can see me feeling similar to EnigmaGirl on this one...I'd seek a more private setting - not wanting to expose anything... (I wouldn't be comfortable with that !)...and it would bother me personally -if others around me weren't comfortable.. if anything.. even among friends, a husband in the house.. I would open that subject to learn their comfort with it -before I would go there.. (Like alone with the wife off to the side 1st) if I didn't want to miss something happening..



> *Intheory said*:* To you guys that would never see a lactating breast as sexual, I commend you - I just think you are in the minority*.


 I just asked my husband this. IF he seen a bare boob ... if he would see it as sexual.... *he would look*.. and he said "I suppose I would! "  but added.. he never sees this.

I have 1 regret in regards to breastfeeding.. I forget which baby it was now but before my milk dried up.. husband asked me, wanted to try some ...be my baby... ha ha.. (do most men do this I wonder or is he weird?)..... I didn't let him.... darn it.. Looking back....I really regret pushing him away... he should have tried harder to get some...just took it ! The silly things we argue about in hindsight..

Men ..would you like to see more of this in the Grocery line ??..Ok with the wives too....What say you? I wouldn't care if my husband looked..... I think it would be fun to visit a nude beach too though.....Mods I'm thinking this photo is Ok to post.. no nipples...breasts are for feeding babies !










Ok.. next question.. if this was your wife... would you be OK with her this exposed in public ? it's not for male attention , we have to separate it.. but to nourish your son or daughter... I just showed my H this picture.. oh he'd be looking if he saw this woman.. but No. .. he wouldn't want me walking around LIKE THIS..

Where's the line ?


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## Anonymous07

thefam said:


> Yep. She was banned a week or so ago, and the mods said she had several other user names, one of which posted as a male. I wish he would have said who the male user name was. That would have been interesting.


Dang, I didn't know DanaS was a troll. Hopefully the older daughter story is fake then because I still feel bad for that lady. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Since all is lining up to give their thoughts on exposing a little breast for breastfeeding in public.. I am rather neutral.. it's not something I would be offended by.. it's natural.. it's good for the child. but yet.. I would be one to seek a private place.. and be considerate of those who may not be as comfortable with it.. .
> 
> I tried it shortly with 2nd son..(about 2 months) I didn't care for it.. it hurt!! ...I told myself If I kept this up...the kid would starve as I felt it slowed me down too much .... give me the bottle please!
> 
> Looking back.. I remember the 1st introduction I had with a Mother openly exposing her breast ...to breastfeed.. it was in our living room...she was very comfortable doing this , it was quick...the latching on.. it didn't bother me .. it wasn't something I was used to seeing.. but ya know.. not a big deal.. nor would my husband think so .... we understand it's natural... even good.. I have always said those MOMs are better than me.. cause I didn't want to breastfeed !
> 
> Had I chosen to breastfeed though...I can see me feeling similar to EnigmaGirl on this one...I'd seek a more private setting - not wanting to expose anything... (I wouldn't be comfortable with that !)...and it would bother me personally -if others around me weren't comfortable.. if anything.. even among friends, a husband in the house.. I would open that subject to learn their comfort with it -before I would go there.. (Like alone with the wife off to the side 1st) if I didn't want to miss something happening..
> 
> I just asked my husband this. IF he seen a bare boob ... if he would see it as sexual.... *he would look*.. and he said "I suppose I would! "  but added.. he never sees this.
> 
> I have 1 regret in regards to breastfeeding.. I forget which baby it was now but before my milk dried up.. husband asked me, wanted to try some ...be my baby... ha ha.. (do most men do this I wonder or is he weird?)..... I didn't let him.... darn it.. Looking back....I really regret pushing him away... he should have tried harder to get some...just took it ! The silly things we argue about in hindsight..
> 
> My husband has tried my breast milk, although it was done by accident at first. I hand expressed into a cup because I had been engorged and he thought I had left some regular milk out, that he took to drink with his sandwich. He said it tastes sweet, almost like melted ice cream. Some people think it's weird, but it's human milk for humans. Breast milk also works great as an anti-biotic. We used it to clear up the pinkeye we all got exposed to, so a few drops in all of our eyes and it was cleared up the same day. My dad had to use anti-biotic drops for 3 days.
> 
> Men ..would you like to see more of this in the Grocery line ??..Ok with the wives too....What say you? I wouldn't care if my husband looked..... I think it would be fun to visit a nude beach too though.....Mods I'm thinking this photo is Ok to post.. no nipples...breasts are for feeding babies !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.. next question.. if this was your wife... would you be OK with her this exposed in public ? it's not for male attention , we have to separate it.. but to nourish your son or daughter... I just showed my H this picture.. oh he'd be looking if he saw this woman.. but No. .. he wouldn't want me walking around LIKE THIS..
> 
> Where's the line ?


I've sat nursing my son at the beach wearing a bikini, so I guess I would be similarly exposed as she is. My husband had no issue with it, as he knows my body is for him and I was not trying to get other guys' attention. I was feeding our son and he was proud that our son had been exclusively breastfed. Normally, I wouldn't be that exposed those, as I typically wore double tank tops, where I could pull one up and the other down. People just do what ever they feel comfortable with and I see no issue with what ever that woman chooses. 

I have to say though that I have very rarely ever seen breastfeeding women that exposed(maybe 4 women total). Most use a cover and unfortunately seem uncomfortable/nervous. I was like that in the beginning, where I used a cover and would look for a hidden place to nurse, but became a lot more confident as time went on and just fed my son wherever we were. I didn't want to waste time looking for a place to nurse or fight my son to keep a cover on his head. I also didn't want to leave my family just to feed my son. What's the point? So some stranger might feel better? No thanks. Seeing a woman breastfeed like that doesn't bother me at all. I love seeing women breastfeed and will smile at them. I don't care if she is covered or not, she is just feeding her baby. They are just boobs and she is using them for their intended purpose.


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## southbound

Personal said:


> Bare breasts or naked women can be seen by a man as simply and plainly bare or naked without any sexual context at all and no different from seeing oneself being naked in front of a mirror.


If I see an attractive, naked woman, and it's no different than looking at myself in the mirror, I'll probably schedule a check-up for myself.


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## southbound

Personal said:


> Fortunately for me as a highly sexed man who has enjoyed a number of women, I grew out of having High School proclivities. So I am experienced enough to discern the difference between non-sexual nudity and sexual nudity regardless of how aesthetically pleasing one may appear to be.


Maybe that is why some people become LD in their marriage. They see their naked spouse and don't realize it should be appealing, or they see them as they see themselves in the mirror. 

As for non-sexual and sexual nudity, I'm sure there is nudity when sex isn't going to happen, and nudity when sex is going to happen, and adult males can act civilized and not demonstrate high school proclivities when it's not going to happen, but I can't think of any men that wouldn't feel like the atmosphere had changed a bit if they saw an attractive, naked woman, but I suppose not all men have developed your amazing abilities due to the number of women you have enjoyed.


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## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> Maybe that is why some people become LD in their marriage. They see their naked spouse and don't realize it should be appealing, or they see them as they see themselves in the mirror.
> 
> As for non-sexual and sexual nudity, I'm sure there is nudity when sex isn't going to happen, and nudity when sex is going to happen, and adult males can act civilized and not demonstrate high school proclivities when it's not going to happen, but *I can't think of any men that wouldn't feel like the atmosphere had changed a bit if they saw an attractive, naked woman*, but I suppose not all men have developed your amazing abilities due to the number of women you have enjoyed.


I'll completely disagree. This is what always happens in the medical field. Male doctors will see naked female parts and it's never sexual, as it's just a human body. Nudity is not an issue. That's just part of the job. It would be weird and sad if people could not disassociate a naked body and sex. I do see it as part of being mature, that you can look at a naked body and not see it as sexual. I've worked in the medical field myself and can easily look at a male naked body without thinking sex, even as someone with a very high sex drive. There is a time and place for looking at bodies in a sexual way. A woman breastfeeding is not a big deal, whether she is exposed or not.


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## SimplyAmorous

I think you are both being a little hard on @southbound for a difference of opinion..

I had an interesting night.. brought this subject up in the car to 18 yr old son on the way home ... well I guess he's mature.. as he claims he wouldn't think anything sexual.. he laughed & said I should walk in the door and ask his brother this one.. they are used to my crazy questions from good ol' TAM.. his brother also is a mature 17 yr old.. Nope , says he wouldn't think anything sexual if a woman whipped her boob out & a baby was hanging on it.. (though again they really don't see this happening....only 2nd son noticed a relative of GF's breastfeeding one day at a Party.. he wasn't sure what she was doing at 1st , then realized -said he didn't see anything though)...

Then my husband pipes up in the kitchen saying "I guess I'm the BAD ONE!".....meaning he's more immature than his teen sons...Oh well.... he does love a nice set of boobs... his mind would go there if those were flashed.... now he did say if she was butt ugly.. it'd be EWWW, looking away..... I just laughed.. He's not the type that would screw unless he was in love anyway, completely harmless.. women can do what they want.. expose 'em!.... he's happy! It's just that the mind would GO THERE - at least momentarily.... that's all.. 

Really we all think women should be more discreet... kinda like if your baby needs a diaper change.. make sure you have diapers on hand.. if you know your period is due, have tampons in your purse... if you're a breast feeding Mom.. make sure you have a little cover so the general public does not see everything.. that's all.. that's our opinion... 

I surely don't think it's outrageous by any means..


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Really we all think women should be more discreet... kinda like if your baby needs a diaper change.. make sure you have diapers on hand.. if you know your period is due, have tampons in your purse... if you're a breast feeding Mom.. make sure you have a little cover so the general public does not see everything.. that's all.. that's our opinion...
> 
> I surely don't think it's outrageous by any means..


Thanks SA, I'm glad somebody understands where I'm coming from.


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## Maricha75

Unfortunately, though, when someone says "a little cover", they often mean to use a blanket or something along that line. That, I disagree with, completely... unless the mother and the child have no problem with that, themselves. I think EXPECTING mothers to cover their babies' heads with a blanket IS unreasonable.


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## SimplyAmorous

Maricha75 said:


> Unfortunately, though, when someone says "a little cover", they often mean to use a blanket or something along that line. That, I disagree with, completely... unless the mother and the child have no problem with that, themselves. I think EXPECTING mothers to cover their babies' heads with a blanket IS unreasonable.


 Honestly a blanket (the term = large to me) in no way comes to mind ...really..it could be as small as a cloth that fits in a woman's purse...it should be comfortable for Mom & Baby... of course.. I also don't think the baby needs hidden..

Others may feel that way.. I am not one of them. This is lovely...








...

Personally I have never seen any woman showing the type of exposure I have in pubic that one might find on google images ....if I inserted some of those......I would wonder if I fired my computer back on -if I might be banned... Some of it just goes "too far".. that's my opinion....it would be different if it was OK for women to go topless... but we're not there yet.. Maybe some feel we should be? 

Breasts will always always always be an arousal point for men.. Hey, I think it's great ! 

We can't control what others may think -even if it makes some a Dirty old man who needs to get his mind out of the gutter... I just vote to be mindful of this... That's all. 

My father was stopped by the police when he was a young man for taking a whizz along the highway.. I'm sure he didn't aim it at the cars !... "indecent exposure"- he got a fine for that ...Hey.. when you gotta go -you gotta go ! That was *natural* too.. I could argue that was stupid.. how many would agree with me I wonder?? 

I really don't have a problem with men standing behind a tree to take a whiz .I'd feel the same about a Mom who wants to breastfeed.. I'm pretty lenient.. I just think we shouldn't purposely try to expose ourselves.... 

This is hardly a subject I personally care about - it doesn't offend me , if they change the law someday & women can all go topless.. I'll be right there with them.. 

This appears to be at a restaurant (?) .. some will feel this is exposing too much....







...nothing wrong with this picture.. I would just add a cloth over the top of her right breast...(and a diaper on the baby) that's all.


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## EleGirl

My mother had 8 babies and breast fed everyone. We were often traveling my car, train, ocean liner, air. It seems always with a new baby. She had some very light weight lace-like receiving blankets that she used.

Here is a link to the kind I'm talking about. https://stockinette.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/dsc_0380.jpg


I think that in public it's right to cover up like that. It's how I was raised. 


.


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## SimplyAmorous

EleGirl said:


> My mother had 8 babies and breast fed everyone. We were often traveling my car, train, ocean liner, air. It seems always with a new baby. She had some very light weight lace-like receiving blankets that she used.
> 
> Here is a link to the kind I'm talking about. https://stockinette.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/dsc_0380.jpg
> 
> I think that in public it's right to cover up like that. It's how I was raised.


 You know I really LOVE the Lace idea... just adds some elegance to it ... very Lady like..and Motherly.. When our 2nd son was still in diapers.... he had this wild fascination with LACE...I had this one lacey blanket , similar to what you showed.... he would carry it everywhere...I also remember his grabbing little girls dresses to feel the lace... it was the funniest thing!


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## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know I really LOVE the Lace idea... just adds some elegance to it ... very Lady like..and Motherly.. When our 2nd son was still in diapers.... he had this wild fascination with LACE...I had this one lacey blanket , similar to what you showed.... he would carry it everywhere...I also remember his grabbing little girls dresses to feel the lace... it was the funniest thing!


I like it too. The idea that the baby is not enclosed in a hot blanket helps. It's kind of like a screen I guess.


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## Maricha75

Unfortunately, Ele, even that lace type of blanket wouldn't have worked with my children, nor a cloth to "cover up". I tried, in the beginning. They all would sweat so bad they were uncomfortable, pulling at the light cover, and latching off. After that initial trial, I just left it off. They didn't squirm, no uncomfortable sweating, just a baby eating. I only lifted the shirt and bra so they could latch, then pulled the shirt down close, so only a sliver, if any, of my skin showed. This is why I say that _expecting_ a woman to use any kind of cover is unreasonable. With blankets, or any other sort of cover, you know what they are doing... and the pervs will try to catch a glimpse. The way I did it, they only knew if they were in my face... and people I didn't know had no business being THAT close anyway.


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## Anonymous07

Does anyone here eat with a blanket over their head? I sure don't and I have tried nursing with a blanket covering my son, but he would not have it. I have since ditched the blanket and just nurse him with nothing over us. We're both happier without a cloth/blanket over us, no matter how light or airy it is. 

Breastfeeding aka a baby eating is very different from someone peeing. They are completely different and just can't be compared next to each other. The only thing breastfeeding can be compared to is someone else eating. Eating compared to eating.

And some pictures for fun.


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## southbound

Personal said:


> Seriously you might consider finding a local life drawing group in your area to give it a try. Once you get used to it you'll be just like all the other men and women of varied ages and walks of life who can gaze upon someone else's naked flesh without titillation.


No thanks. It's not really a need or desire of mine to change my perception of nudity. They don't have those activities in my neck of the woods anyway. 




Anonymous07 said:


> Does anyone here eat with a blanket over their head?


 I don't, but there are many lifestyle differences between babies and adults; at least, that's been my experience.


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## Maricha75

southbound said:


> I don't, but there are many lifestyle differences between babies and adults; at least, that's been my experience.


There are similarities, too. Babies sweat as much as, sometimes even more than, adults. Adults like to sit and enjoy their meal in comfort (I am talking about how we eat, not location or company, necessarily)... babies enjoy the same thing. I wish those clamoring for breastfeeding moms to be discreet would understand that discretion doesn't necessarily mean covering the baby's head.


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## Anonymous07

southbound said:


> I don't, but there are many lifestyle differences between babies and adults; at least, that's been my experience.


There are more similarities than there are differences. At 7 months old, my son was eating the same foods that I was because we decided to do "baby led weaning". He didn't eat purees. 



Maricha75 said:


> There are similarities, too. Babies sweat as much as, sometimes even more than, adults. Adults like to sit and enjoy their meal in comfort (I am talking about how we eat, not location or company, necessarily)... babies enjoy the same thing. I wish those clamoring for breastfeeding moms to be discreet would understand that discretion doesn't necessarily mean covering the baby's head.


Young babies do not have the ability to regulate their temperature the same way adults can, so having them eat under a hot blanket can actually be very dangerous. Babies overheat much faster than adults do. I refuse to use a blanket/cover when nursing, but it also doesn't mean I sit there topless just to feed my baby. I doubt you would be able to tell I was nursing.


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## happy as a clam

OP was banned because (she/he/it) is a troll!!

Probably time to let this thread rest. Unless folks want to keep talking about imaginary "angry" waitresses and breastfeeding in public.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unblinded

happy as a clam said:


> OP was banned because (she/he/it) is a troll!!
> 
> Probably time to let this thread rest. Unless folks want to keep talking about imaginary "angry" waitresses and breastfeeding in public.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a bit hasty, don't you think? 

Sure the horse is dead--and bloated--but I'm pretty sure its leg just twitched. 

Back to the beatings!


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## happy as a clam

^ ^ ^

:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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