# SPECIFIC Question - Do Plans A and B Still Apply?



## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Most of you know what's up. Have posted this question several times in my latest thread, but I guess its getting buried.

*Am I too late for Plan A? Does Plan A apply if I'm not dealing with a "classic affair", but maybe a wife who is addicted to male attention and just not committed to the marriage or the family?*

When I think about what I could expose, most of the evidence that I have is somewhat old, and even then its only who she texted and talked to and how many times. I don't really have anything big from the last two months.

The other thing I struggle with is that she's already pushed her parents and her married friends away. Right now her best friends are the two single gals she's been going out with.

I started reading Surviving the Affair by Dr. Harley yesterday - hope to read more today at lunch.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

NiceGuy~

I'm working on it! You know me--my replies can be long and fairly verbose...and yet they are action packed (full of adventure heehee) so I'll get it up as quick as I can!


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Mr. Nice guy needs to read "No more Mr. Nice guy" or "Love must be tough". He is financing his wife's single life style. Basically allowing her to live without consequence to her actions. He is actually hurting her physically, because of the life style he is paying for her to have. He doesn't realize that if he would "man-up" his wife could actually start respecting him, which may turn her around. Right now she is acting like a spoiled child and he is acting like coddling parent. He thinks that if she is not yelling and screaming at him, their relationship is on the road to repair. LOL. The most that Mr nice guy can expect by acting the way he is, is to get back his old wife, with the same problems.

Hey Mr. Nice guy. If she isn't ready to come home and be part of the marriage, then let her crash and burn. Out of the rubble, she could rise like a phoenix. But as long as you keep putting the fire out, she will only look at you as a weak man who is only worthy of contempt and the stroke of a check. Wake up.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Most of you know what's up. Have posted this question several times in my latest thread, but I guess its getting buried.
> 
> *Am I too late for Plan A? Does Plan A apply if I'm not dealing with a "classic affair", but maybe a wife who is addicted to male attention and just not committed to the marriage or the family?*
> 
> ...


Mr. Niceguy~

Just so you know, your question didn't go unheeded. I did need some time to think and consider all the details in your situation and think about Plan A--Carrot & Stick to ponder whether or not it would apply. 

Just to be certain, can we review a little? 

Your wife was training to be a nurse, and her training was long and vigorous. It was quite an achievement just to finish the training--and her life goals were to finish training and then enter the nursing profession. Yet almost immediately after finishing her training, she had some pain and illness and was subsequently diagnosed with CFS and Fibromyagia which at least in her mind, ended her nursing career. So all that struggle and years of training was for nothing (in her mind). Simply put, thereafter she freaked out and had two EA's and moved out. These EA's were documented and you have evidence so that you feel sure they were affairs (despite her denial--which every disloyal does). At about this point you two got into marriage counseling with a counselor who told you she should be allowed "some privacy" and your wife had pretty much used that to mean she has permission to continue to be secretive and hide things from you such as who she is with, where she's going and what's she's exactly doing. Currently from what you can determine (via your methods) she is no longer maintaining contact with either of the OM in the affairs, but she does continue in to behave like someone who is either involved in an affair or who is LOOKING FOR an affair. Namely, she is on facebook, cell phone or chatting for HOURS a day; she goes out until 3am and doesn't tell you where she's going or who she's with...etc. So this has been going on basically since a few months after finishing nursing school. 

In summary, she doesn't work, she's moved out, she had two EA's, she got permission to continue being secretive, and at this time she does not devote all of her affection and loyalty to her spouse. She tried to escape the diagnosis by having affairs, and when that didn't work she continues to escape by continuing the attitude of being unfaithful but without picking "just one man at a time." Now she's escaping dealing with her choices by trying to guilt you into letting her have her cake and eat it too--and yet using the counselor as "permission" to continue the overall behavior of a disloyal spouse. 

Is that about where we stand right now? And right now, she says she wants to come home but doesn't demonstrate any willingness to look at herself, take personal responsibility, or make any changes to herself...and you basically have pretty much had your love fire utterly extinguished. At this point you don't feel much for her at all and you're wondering if Plan A-Carrot & Stick or Plan B-Consequences would apply...is that right? 

Before I go any further, I'm going to refer you to two articles on my website. The first one is What Is An Affair? and here's why. In your instance, your spouse is not turning to one other person to get her emotional needs met and yet that is not how we define infidelity. Being unfaithful is "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)." Usually people are used to seeing one spouse turning to ONE other person and call that "an affair" but in this instance, your spouse is turning to several people and she is DEFINITELY not acting in a way that dedicated all of her affection and loyalty to you and you alone. Thus, the issue is not one "Other Person" as is usually/often the case--but rather an overall attitude of turning to others outside her marriage to have her needs met and an overall unfaithful way of behaving. In a marriage, the vows basically state that you both volunteer to act in such a way that ALL of your affection and loyalty is given to your spouse and only your spouse. 

So in this instance you don't have one OM...but I believe you do definitely have unfaithful behavior occuring, and frankly it's been occuring for a LONG time! 

The second article I'm going to refer you to is Seven Steps to Ending the Affair and here's why. We don't hold to these steps as the ONLY way to deal with unfaithfulness/infidelity, but they are good guidelines and each step does build upon the last. So you have to do Confront-Disclose-Expose before you move on to PLAN A-CARROT & STICK for example. 

After reviewing the steps, where would you guess that you are in the progression? If I remember correctly, you have gathered evidence--both of her EA's and of her continuing unfaithful type behavior now--so that even though she denies or deflects and even though the "counselor" calls it "privacy" you know in your head and heart what is really going on. Step 2, 3 and 4 involve talking to people right up front about the unfaithful behavior, not "pretending it's not happening" or continuing to help hide it but rather facing reality and addressing directly those who might be affected by it. You start with your spouse, and in your case you would speak directly to her and ask her if she is willing to end her unfaithful behavior, become personally transparent to you, and dedicated ALL of her affection and loyalty to only you. If she says with her lips that she is--and so far her actions have said different--then you ask for the three things: 

a) NO CONTACT. In her instance she does not have "one other man" to end contact with--she has several and a method of behaving that offers both her affection and her loyalty to others, making them a priority over you. Thus I'd recommend asking her to DEMONSTRATE for a full month that she's willing to end all attempts to contact anyone else to get her needs met and focus on getting ALL of her needs met either from within herself (her own self-worth) or from you and only you. She is so far gone at this point I think she may need to lose those things for a while. The trick here is that is would not be you "taking it" from her, but rather she would have to voluntarily end them all in favor of you and the marriage. HER CHOICE!! Thus you are not her policeman. She polices herself and she proves to you her honesty. 

b) Voluntary access to all the ways she has been offering her affection and loyalty to others, so that she willingly allows you to check up on her and verify that she is being open and honest with you. Usually cheaters use email, facebook, cell phones, chats, etc. to "keep in touch" and your instance is just a little different. Thus, of her own accord she would have to willingly tell you the ways that she's been offering her affections to others and the ways she's been seeking to have her needs met by others...AND she offers you access to those places so you can check on her and see that she's putting all her efforts, energies and loyalty into YOU. If she's not willing to do this, then she's actually making a choice, and the choice is to end the relationship...she just doesn't have the guts to say it. 

3) Enthusiastically agree to do the work on herself and the marriage in order to rebuild a whole new marriage. Fearlessly facing herself and admitting where she's gone wrong and putting in the effort and energy to change--and vigorously engaging in personal responsibility in the marriage and making it different than it was before. 

This is just me, but I think I'll stop with step two, because I'll be honest--I am not positive if you've done step two. I would suggest that TONIGHT you meet with her and approach this ongoing and continuous unfaithful behavior. Remember the definition, being unfaithful is "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)." Just to cover bases--do step two, share the definition of unfaithfulness with her, ask her to choose to dedicate to you and you alone or choose to move on--because this is not continuing. 

I don't know that Disclosure and Exposure would need to be re-done. As I understand it the parents know... people know and it's been spinning it's wheels like this long enough that they won't have an infidelity-busting effect now. Thus the next step would be PLAN A-CARROT & STICK. I know you asked if THAT step would be effective...and that's what this thread is all about. In a one-word answer: Yes. Plan A--Carrot & Stick would/could be effective. The main points I want to get across to you is that Plan A is basically a lifelong commitment and it does not so much focus on "them" and "what they've done" and "punishing them." Plan A is not being a doormat either. PLAN A--CARROT & STICK is about applying positive and negative reinforcment for ongoing unfaithfulness. Very simply, the "Carrot" part is to work on you and change the things you did in the marriage prior to the infidelity that extinguished the love in your wife. You become a better man, a better father, a better husband...the loving, attentive, devoted, romantic man you have the potential to be! You should THAT man to your wife--while she spins out of control grasping for crumbs everywhere, you be a feast ... at home. *And the very main thing you work on...#1... is ENDING ALL LOVE EXTINGUISHERS.* If you never do a love kindler that can be okay because it is the extinguishers that kill the love--and you very much *need* to stop them. So the home front LOOKS GOOD and is not killing love. The "Stick" part is to do what you can to allow her to see that the affair and continuing unfaithfulness is ugly, does not fill her needs, is hard, is painful, is costly. In other words, you stop enabling the infidelity. You do the most loving thing possible and allow her to experience the consequences of her own, adult choices. She doesn't want to dedicate her affection and loyalty only to you? Cool beans. She also doesn't get her cell phone paid for by you...her apartment paid for by you...her car..her utilities...free babysitting...nothing! See, NiceGuy, if she chooses to not have the responsibilities of a marriage, it is reasonable for her to also not receive the benefits of a marriage. 

She WILL (I guarantee you...she WILL) cry foul, say you are forcing her, blame you, push your buttons, play victim, and even probably claim you are trying to control her. No you're not. She is college educated in a medical profession. She may have CFS but that does not mean she can't do something with her training. She can work part-time, 3/4 time, at home, online, etc. So you gave her the choice to dedicate her affection and loyalty to you...and at least up until today she has chosen to refuse that and continue to be unfaithful. I am suggesting you basically re-do "Step 2: Confront" armed with the new info on what infidelity is and give her one final chance to choose ("confront" as in face it head on--not as in confrontation). Then you would go to Plan A and show her the Carrot (and she can gain all the benefits thereby if she just chooses to return to the marriage). Simultaneously you show her the Stick and when she cries foul--you know in your heart of hearts NOPE! It's been her choice all along and she is free to choose either one whichever she wants. The only thing you are controlling is that YOU will not have an unfaithful life partner in your life anymore. If she hardens her heart and will not voluntarily dedicate it ALL to you...then she is the one who chose to have you no longer pay for her apartment, her food, her lack of fidelity! She's free to be completely unfaithful!! If she chooses that--she finances it. It's easy!

So we are not quite there yet, but will be shortly. First let's tackle the first thing--once more speak to her directly armed with this new, clearer definition of unfaithfulness. Come back and tell us what happened when you have spoken to her face-to-face and given her the choice. Then we'll move to some Plan A. And nope Plan A does not mean "give in to her romantic demands"--it means work on NiceGuy and make him the strong, attractive, confident man that you ARE. It means fearlessly facing yourself and where you went wrong. It means making the effort to end ALL Love Extinguishers and working on practicing new ways of behaving. It means changing you...for the better!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am awed.




Affaircare said:


> Mr. Niceguy~
> 
> Just so you know, your question didn't go unheeded. I did need some time to think and consider all the details in your situation and think about Plan A--Carrot & Stick to ponder whether or not it would apply.
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AC,

Thank you so very, very much. This is hard to hear and will be harder to do, but I think you've laid it out perfectly.

Thank you.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Good luck, man. Keep us posted.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

The last two nights we've discussed my requirement for openness and transparency before she can come home and leave the apartment including last night in therapy. I told her that she cannot move home unless she allows me access to her "life". I asked for all account info and passwords, and told her I wanted to set down with her and have her show me her iPhone and how she uses it, and that I need access to her laptop. And that she needs to come completely clean about what she's been doing, how, and with who.

Night before last she said I was being ridiculous. During therapy last night, she was angry and defensive. The counselor - who in the past had defended her right to privacy - changed the tune and helped by reinforcing that my wife has a "choice" to keep secrets and do as she pleases, but it will be at the cost of our marriage. I reminded her that I also have choices. 

The counselor also said that the biggest, fastest growing problem right now is people having sex through chatting or texting. She said it continues to get much worse as the smart phones become more powerful. My wife said she would never cross that line. I told her that she's crossed a lot of lines in the past year that I never thought she would cross.

I also told the counselor that SHE had pissed me off during our last session by giving my wife an excuse for going to bars late at night. That even if my wife has a NEED for social interaction and people-watching (wife does actually have a Sociology degree), there are a LOT of other ways for her to meet those needs without hanging out in bars at 2am with her single gal pals. The therapist said I misunderstood – that I should be willing to accept an invite out with my wife. She went on to tell my wife directly that any man hanging out at a bar at 2am on a weeknight is simply looking for cheap sex.

And yes - the "positive" spin - was for me to say that we'll BOTH be miserable if I continue to feel I can't trust her. So what I'm asking for will help BOTH OF US.

AFTER therapy, we talked for another 30 minutes in the parking lot. My wife quickly went from angry and defensive to being vulnerable and hurt - saying that she's confused and unhappy (which I completely believe). She said she didn't know what to do. I reminded her that she is a full-grown adult, and that I don't understand why she's clinging so tightly to this "secret" life if she's so miserable. Its been two years since she was sent home from work, and its time for her to figure out how to start moving forward with her life - with or without me.

So - where we left things - I'm not going to spend time with her while she continues to hide such a big part of her life from me. She can choose to be open or she can choose privacy. If she doesn't want to give me her account info, I told her that I was willing to listen to other suggestions, but that I needed to KNOW with no doubts what she was and is doing.

I stopped just short of giving her an ultimatum. And no, I didn't threaten to cut off funds. But I did tell her that if things didn't change SOON (end of summer/August is the deadline in my head to have transparency) that we need to move on to a more formal, and potential legal separation, including separate finances and no contact. I told her that this distance would be necessary, if she really wants to save the marriage, in order to keep her from completely killing the love that I have left for her.

She left, crying and promising to change. I've heard those promises before and don't have my hopes very high at the moment. But I did feel like she had a better understanding of where we are headed if she continues to refuse to work on herself.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Overall, it seems you had a positive day getting you point across. I would say it was a good day.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Spent quite a bit of time with my wife over the weekend. She stayed at the house both Friday and Saturday and she left her laptop at the apartment. She also "reduced" her iPhone activities, and was "updating me" on her Facebook friends when she was looking at her phone.

She's probably hoping that these small improvements will be enough to stop me from pushing about passwords and account access.

A big part of Plan A is to avoid Lovebusting. So, how can I get my point across that this isn't what I asked for without nagging or Lovebusting? Should I give her ANY credit for these small improvements? Or do I just tell her to completely stay away until she can completely respect my new boundaries regarding openness and transparency?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NG,
If she actually WAS willing to give up her addiction she would give you the transparency you seek. The whole reason for her determined refusal is she has no plan to change.

This is a type of "addiction". She gets a type of high from it. So unless she knows she has to stop cold - she will just manage the optics with you until she moves back in and then will gradually ramp back up. Worse - like any addict - she will get angry about every challenge, every question - she will make you the bad guy. 

If she isn't willing to trade her family for the addiction you are lost before you start. 

It will actually be EASIER for her to "quit" if she knows you have access to her phone/computer because she will be certain of the consequence when she feels temptation. 

The real issue is she wants to have her cake and eat it. But that means you will always have half a wife and she will demand you be a full husband. Doesn't seem close to fair. 



nice777guy said:


> Spent quite a bit of time with my wife over the weekend. She stayed at the house both Friday and Saturday and she left her laptop at the apartment. She also "reduced" her iPhone activities, and was "updating me" on her Facebook friends when she was looking at her phone.
> 
> She's probably hoping that these small improvements will be enough to stop me from pushing about passwords and account access.
> 
> A big part of Plan A is to avoid Lovebusting. So, how can I get my point across that this isn't what I asked for without nagging or Lovebusting? Should I give her ANY credit for these small improvements? Or do I just tell her to completely stay away until she can completely respect my new boundaries regarding openness and transparency?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

MEM - thanks for your response.

Just to clarify - and maybe I don't need to - but right now there is no (verbal) "determined refusal." Its more like an avoidance. If the laptop is out of sight, the she thinks she can avoid the issue of passwords altogether.

And I finally understand that this is completely unacceptable.

So how hard - and how - do I push?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The only way to "break" a prolonged addiction is to create a crisis. This forces the addicted partner to look in the mirror really hard before they decide. 

If it were me I would do the "un-sell". The un-sell is when you explain to someone that based on what they have told you they would be happier without the item you want them to buy. 

In your case the approach would loosely translate into this:

Obviously I not only love you, but am committed to you otherwise I wouldn't have taken on the combined job of financial supporter and primary parent for the last X months. 

And that commitment was based on the idea that over time you would adjust to your situation and find a way to be happy with your family and without the external male attention that has been quietly destroying our marriage. 

I have asked for nothing but honesty and transparency from you. Clearly you feel that is an unfair intrusion into your life. And I respect that. It doesn't matter specifically what it is that you feel you need to keep private on your phone and your laptop. You have made it clear in a subtle but determined way that you find the idea of total transparency totally offensive. 

I now reluctantly accept that you simply don't get enough of whatever it is you need from me, to be satisfied with a physically and emotionally monogamous relationship. I am sad it has played out this way, and am sorry that I didn't have enough of that "magic" to make you want to stay. 

I don't want to talk about finances other than to say by end of August you need to have a job and be ready for us to transition to our post marriage arrangement. 

SHE IS GOING TO FLIP - SHE MAY YELL AND SCREAM 

And then you need to end the conversation and let her sit with that for a couple days. It will be hard for both of you. But this will force her to make an absolute and black and white decision. 

Most likely she will come back to you - but when she does she is almost certain to make one last "cake and eat it" play which is to say that she is only doing this because you are forcing her and that given her illness she is financially dependent on you. 

And you need to force the issue in the moment by telling her if she is only doing this under duress - not because she wants an open/honest and monogamous marriage - then you will pass on her offer. Because if you take her back under the context of you "controlling" her she will beat you up on that point relentlessly and you will eventually wish she still had her own apartment. 

As for the control argument it is utter bull****. You are insisting on being treated the way you treat her. That is called not being a doormat. If she wants to play with other guys - she needs to accept something called a divorce. 

If you approach it this way - IF she comes home she will do so with a newfound respect for you. If she comes home without respect and a fear of consequences, you will soon be watching her gradually slip back into the abyss....









nice777guy said:


> MEM - thanks for your response.
> 
> Just to clarify - and maybe I don't need to - but right now there is no (verbal) "determined refusal." Its more like an avoidance. If the laptop is out of sight, the she thinks she can avoid the issue of passwords altogether.
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks MEM - very well put and impossible to argue with.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Just my opinion, but it seems as though a woman staying out late and putting SO much energy into getting male attention, could find a way to use that nursing degree. Is obviously isn't homebound.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Neverwouldhave guessed said:


> Just my opinion, but it seems as though a woman staying out late and putting SO much energy into getting male attention, could find a way to use that nursing degree. Is obviously isn't homebound.


No argument here. In AffairCare's post above, she said my wife needs to agree to work on both HERSELF and the marriage. She needs to find a healthy outlet for what energy she does have, and she needs to find something healthy that will give her a sense of self-worth. If she doesn't do something with her life, she's just going to likely repeat these mistakes again at some point.

The first year she after being sent home, she was depressed. When she started getting attention from guys and started her first EA, I noticed an increase in her energy level. I didn't know at the time it was because of the attention she was getting from other men.

Just like most things in life, the things that make us feel good NOW are of little use in the long run, and often even cause long-term damage (food, alcohol, "vegging out", letting out kids do whatever they want so they don't bother us so much...). Its the things that we have to WORK for that truly build us up and help us find happiness within ourselves (eating right, managing your weight, exercise, being an "active" parent...).

Hello. My name is Niceguy, and I'm trying to become a "recovering" enabler.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Niceguy~

I speak to you as someone who's spouse also has CFS and knowing how it is sort of elusive and there are better days and worse days, I know that it is difficult have a typical "full-time" job. Yet I can also say that has in no way prevented Dear Hubby from being a productive member of the marriage and the family! Continuing to use that as an excuse is just that...an excuse. 

I have to admit I don't think I can add much to what MEM has said. Nail--head--hit!  I have encouraged you before and I'll do it again: I think the time has come for "sh*t or get off the pot." Sorry to be so graphic but the little tokens just aren't cutting it, and neither is using CFS as an excuse. I understand the need for some flexibility, but she could dedicate 100% of her affection to you and only you--be a stay at home mom and in charge of running the home--take breaks when she needed to physically--and still be a productive member of the family. Likewise she could find online work, be a part-time visiting nurse, learn to code medical records, become a transcriptionist, etc. Nope--this just doesn't fly. 

Sooo...gird yourself NiceGuy. All-or-nothing cut-off day is coming and personally I say the sooner the better.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks again AC.

I know that I'm not moving a the pace that most of you feel I should move. I really appreciate the help - your advice has been absolutely incredible and I know you'll encourage me to pick up the pace - but I'm honestly just really struggling.

Long version below - short version - I said "this is what I need" before you can move back home - passwords, honesty and transparency. She argued as expected. I stayed calm and on point.

I am going to let this sink in for a day or two - see what kind of reaction I get - and consider how to follow up.

*details:*
Had a discussion tonight with my wife tonight. Told her I wanted to follow up with what we had discussed in therapy in regards to openness and honesty, including sharing our electronic account information. I suggested that we join our FB accounts and said I needed access to any other accounts and also her phone.

She said I was trying to bully her and that she had no intention of giving up her privacy. I reinforced that she could make that choice, but I felt like she was choosing privacy and freedom over the openness and honesty that it would take to heal our marriage.

She said it sounded like I was giving her an ultimatum. I responded that I was just being honest - I don't think either of us want to stay in a marriage where there was no trust.

I told her that she was not a victim - that we had arrived here in large part due to her choices to lie to me and cover up her relationships.

She said I was acting crazy. I told her that I wasn't asking for anything that I wasn't prepared to give up myself. And that I felt like I was just asking for things to go back to the way they were BEFORE the EAs. We didn't hide things, used common passwords - back when we had nothing to hide.

Told her that I know she doesn't want to hear about anything I've read, but that her arguments are closely following the script of someone who is lying and is still trying to cover things up. That I'd been reading a book (surviving the affair) and that many of the phrases she was using were sub-chapter headings.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Just a little background on me. I'm an extreme introvert. I have no real close family - my in-laws are by far the closest thing I have. I'm not real personable with the people I work with. I would rather spend time with my kids than "go out with the guys."

Lately I've been talking to NO ONE except you people on this board. I feel ashamed and embarrassed at what I've tolerated. I typically don't discuss my problems with people anyway. A couple of people have asked me how I'm doing, but I've been reluctant to share anything - I just tell them that things are about the same.

I don't mind being alone under normal circumstances, but this has been particularly hard.

Thanks again to all.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

{/wave} Hi NiceGuy~

Tanelorn and I are both introverts too...have no desire to go out too much or be with others...like each other and are happy with each other and don't need a lot of other interaction. 

Don't worry--you did great! You were true to you, you were healthy in the way you asked for it, and you are giving her time to make her own choice and deal with the consequences of her choice. And yep, you can go at your own speed but I'm sure that even YOU can tell that you are rapidly running out of speed and love for her. Let's pray she'll think long and hard about her choice.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Wife finally admitted that there was a guy that she met at the corner bar. She said they haven't talked in more than a month - maybe two - and that they just hung out a couple of times and only at the bar. She was very apologetic and seemed sincerly sorry. But her words cut deeply - I could tell this was a man that she was attracted to.

Every time she tells the truth it's a catch 22 - it's the right thing to do, its what I'm asking her to do, but it affirms that she's a liar.

An old friend - a devout christian who lives out of town - came by and spoke with the both of us. She was very supportive of my point of view, encouraging my wife to listen, answer questions and to stop before more damage is done.

Wife has deleted her Myspace account (which I just recently found out about and never saw) and deactivated her FB account. I told her that although this may help, I would have appreciated being able to see who she was friends with, chatting with, etc.

She gave me the e-mail password. I have given her my FB password and I "think" we are going to make mine a joint FB account.

To my knowledge she has not gone out in over 3 weeks. She is spending about 2 out of every 3 nights at our house. We generally both agree that we need a break after 2 nights together.

I feel like we took a baby step or two towards the truth and towards opennes and transparency. But what she gave was on her terms. I didn't ask her to delete Myspace - but had asked her what her username was. Never asked her to deactivate FB, simply told her we should have a shared account.

Feels like she gave me just enough to keep me hanging on, but not enough to convince me that things are truly going to change.

Therapy tomorrow night.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NG,
She felt stuck. She has lied to you about the extent of her flirting on FB/Myspace. Likely there was a LOT of inappropriate communication in both. And that was why she shut the accounts. The real issue here is the lack of taking responsibility for a consistent pattern of bad behavior. 

A mature person who respected their partner would have said:
I have really screwed up here. I have had a series of inappropriate relationships of the following types (EA/PA, etc). The guys I did this with are named x,y and z. I STOPPED ALL THAT on X date and will never do this again. I am giving you my passwords - all I ask is that you use the password to verify what I have told you - and not to torment yourself with the details. Going forward you can put spector pro on all our computers and an equivalent product on my phone. 

Instead she destroyed the evidence. And worse than that - when you talk to her about this instead of fessing up she attacks you for being "crazy". 





nice777guy said:


> Wife finally admitted that there was a guy that she met at the corner bar. She said they haven't talked in more than a month - maybe two - and that they just hung out a couple of times and only at the bar. She was very apologetic and seemed sincerly sorry. But her words cut deeply - I could tell this was a man that she was attracted to.
> 
> Every time she tells the truth it's a catch 22 - it's the right thing to do, its what I'm asking her to do, but it affirms that she's a liar.
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks MEM.

Right now I feel like shoving both carrot and stick up her a$$ and going to plan "FU".


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

NG,
Sorry to hear you are going through this but at least it may be a start to her realizing what she has done. Did she give you the Iphone password too?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I believe the iPhone is now unlocked, but until I hear some version of MEM's speech out of my wife's mouth I just don't see the point in fighting any further.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Niceguy

Please see How to undelete a Myspace account and How to reactivate my Facebook account.

Neither one of those steps is very permanent *at all*...and since they can so easily be undone, I suggest that you request that you two reopen them both TOGETHER and that she show you both accounts. 

Otherwise I'm with you--both of those moves are not anywhere near permanent and all she's doing is covering up the evidence so she can go back and reopen them after she's sweet-talked you a bit. 

Here the way I'd present it to her: easy choice. Either volunteer to be completely open and honest personal transparency...and do things like that TOGETHER AS A COUPLE, or stop the b.s. :bsflag: Them's the :rules:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NG,
Can I share some painful personal experience here? There have been a few times - not regarding infidelity but other very frustrating arguments - where my W was being VERY unreasonable. And yet - there she was claiming I was being VERY unreasonable. LOL - about half the time in hindsight she was right and the other half she was being crazy as a bedbug. 

Still - a very calm relaxed (on your side) discussion that goes like this might help: Darling very recently you told me I was acting "crazy" with my requests for passwords etc. And I am willing to accept that maybe I WAS being crazy. HOWEVER I have a genuine NEED TO BE CERTAIN one way or the other that either I was being crazy - more precisely "paranoid" OR I was actually right. 

So I am making you a one time offer good for tonight only. I am granting you "full immunity" for your past behavior provided you briefly summarize for me what is in those accounts AND you sit down with me right after and reactivate them. If you refuse to do that - sadly I am going to have to imagine the worst because you specifically chose to deactivate when I pressed for passwords and that is not the behavior of an innocent person. 





Affaircare said:


> Niceguy
> 
> Please see How to undelete a Myspace account and How to reactivate my Facebook account.
> 
> ...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> ... Darling very recently you told me I was acting "crazy" with my requests for passwords etc. And I am willing to accept that maybe I WAS being crazy. HOWEVER I have a genuine NEED TO BE CERTAIN one way or the other that either I was being crazy - more precisely "paranoid" OR I was actually right.
> 
> So I am making you a *one time offer good for tonight only. I am granting you "full immunity"* for your past behavior provided you briefly summarize for me what is in those accounts AND you sit down with me right after and reactivate them. If you refuse to do that - sadly I am going to have to imagine the worst because you specifically chose to deactivate when I pressed for passwords and that is not the behavior of an innocent person.


QFT! (Quoted for Truth!) :allhail: :iagree: :iagree:


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Thanks MEM.
> 
> Right now I feel like shoving both carrot and stick up her a$$ and going to plan "FU".


OH MAN! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

I have to admit, I fell off my chair and spit soda all over the screen laughing at this one. I'm sorry I didn't see it before. 

Of course, plan FU is an option, NiceGuy. I would then nominate you for a namechange however. Maybe FUMan.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

NG, here is my very simple piece:

Her choices and decisions are NEVER going to be about what benefits _you and the marriage_.

Her choices and decisions have been about giving you just enough, waiting you out, and wearing you down.

It isn't about what she is willing to do or sacrifice - it's about doing just enough to satisfy you, while still enabling her to pursue all of the same behavior that created the rift in the first place.

Don't choose someone who isn't prepared to choose you.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Told wife tonight that her "efforts" seemed pretty weak and were totally on her terms; told her I need more - including full access to the laptop and mentioned reactivating her FB; she left very angry, then called about two hours later to apologize and ask if I wanted her to sleep at home tonight - like that would make me feel better or something. Told her "no thanks" and handed the phone over to the kids so they could say goodnight.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

The advice I'm getting on my other thread lead me back here.

We have had the discussion that you've referred to below. My wife gave a hesitant committment to transparency, then basically stalled and tried to sweep everything under the rug by deleting things instead of revealing them.

Even after I've found an e-mail to a man she met with (literally) on a dating site, she continues to say that she's done nothing wrong. When I called her to talk, she was out drinking and simply handed the phone to her cousin. The next day she left me several voice mails - her tone of voice showing no signs of distress. Then she skipped our marriage therapy session.

So - if I go back to this place - do you agree that I've completed the steps you've outlined below? And if so, what would you recommend as my next step?




Affaircare said:


> Mr. Niceguy~
> 
> Just so you know, your question didn't go unheeded. I did need some time to think and consider all the details in your situation and think about Plan A--Carrot & Stick to ponder whether or not it would apply.
> 
> ...


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Wife finally admitted that there was a guy that she met at the corner bar.
> .




That's the look of shock on my face when I read that. 

NOT.

And of course you know that what is admitted to is just the tip of the iceberg. Admit to something seemingly minor so he'll stop trolling for the rest.

Will you just serve her papers for gods sake? She throws you a TINY little bone and it buys her a couple extra weeks of (paid) w.h.o.r.i.n.g.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Go to plan FU.

I don't mean to make light, but I ask you to consider: she was enabled to have her own place and pursue her own agenda - while you foot the bill. This is the important part, she's not remorseful, has no intentions of making real changes to rebuild the marriage, and lastly - by keeping you on the hook by still occasionally having sex with you, she doesn't believe for a moment that you actually have the balls to follow through with divorce. She still firmly believes you need her and can be manipulated.
Time to throw the grenade into the room - or accept that this is as good as it ever gets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo - didn't take it as "making light."

Thanks to all - time for me to move on to the Divorce forum.

Feel free to come and visit!


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