# Women who have cheated, Can you Explain extreme anxiety with just a touch



## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Right now my wife and I are seperated in the same house. She is still trying to decide if she wants to work things out and I do. SHe says she has had no contact with the OM. Two questions. She says she is not sure she can ever get over the fact that I know so much about the affair and be with me. Second, putting my arm around her, hugging her or even holding her ahnd and she tells me that it causes her to be extremely anxious. She says she is not afraid, just anxious.

FOr all you women who ahve cheated on your husbands, can you explain this to me?


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Right now my wife and I are seperated in the same house. She is still trying to decide if she wants to work things out and I do. SHe says she has had no contact with the OM. Two questions. She says she is not sure she can ever get over the fact that I know so much about the affair and be with me. Second, putting my arm around her, hugging her or even holding her ahnd and she tells me that it causes her to be extremely anxious. She says she is not afraid, just anxious.
> 
> FOr all you women who ahve cheated on your husbands, can you explain this to me?


I can tell you she is still in contact with the OM and that is why she is behaving like that . 

BTW one question for you , when you found out about the affair wasn't it you who was supposed to be going to decide if you still want a partner like that or not ?


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## athena (Oct 28, 2010)

bestplayer said:


> I can tell you she is still in contact with the OM and that is why she is behaving like that .


I don't think that is necessarily true. She may have no contact, but she could still have feelings for OM and be going through withdrawal for that addiction. 

Or, she may have lost her attraction to you - emotionally and physically. Physical touch would not be comfortable then. 

I am a WW and in this exact situation. My BH wants to hold hand or cuddle in bed and sometimes I cringe inside but do it anyway because I am trying to get those feelings back. We made out once and while my body was responding to the physical stimuli, my heart was not in it. When he stopped and looked into my eyes, I knew he felt things and I only felt like I was still lying or leading him on. 
She needs to get her feelings for you back. You are a stranger to her physically and it makes her uncomfortable. Work on her emotions first before expecting anything physical. 

I agree with someone in another thread - you need to make focus on making yourself attractive right now (gym, hygiene, charisma) just as you did when you were "wooing" her. When her emotional connection comes back she will then have a better chance at becoming physically attracted again too. You want her to want you. 

You should also be showing her how important your marriage is and show some confidence in yourself. Nothing kills attraction like low self-esteem. It really is cruel how that works - we cheat and it affects your confidence which we then find as a turnoff. I wish it weren't so 

I am saying these things because I think they would help me if my BH did them. 

She should also be doing some things to get her connection to you back. I wish I knew what those things were because I am twisting in the wind on this myself. 

Best of luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Right now my wife and I are seperated in the same house. She is still trying to decide if she wants to work things out and I do. SHe says she has had no contact with the OM. Two questions. She says she is not sure she can ever get over the fact that I know so much about the affair and be with me. Second, putting my arm around her, hugging her or even holding her ahnd and she tells me that it causes her to be extremely anxious. She says she is not afraid, just anxious.
> 
> FOr all you women who ahve cheated on your husbands, can you explain this to me?


It's a kind of confusion. It's very normal when there's someone else like an obstacle between you and your wife.
Next time when she's anxious, pls tell her, "Just relax & no worries, I don't bite!"
Stay cool & fun!


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you both. I am trying to change the things she says created fertile ground for the affair. I know our marital problems created the potential, I'm just not willing to accept it as an excuse for the affair. I am also trying to rebuild the friendship. What bothers me is that up until about 6 months ago, I know she still loved me. also wonder if part of what is going on is guilt. She says she is not worthy of me. In any case, I am trying very hard to be patient and not rush to judgement or action on anything. I've told her we are both still in shock from the discovery - about 2 weeks ago and should not be making any long term decisions or moves right now. Her present position is she can't stay married to me because I know too much. But then she will throw in that she trying to see if she can work it out. I've told her I know I can forgive her - it will take time, she needs to forgive herself. So here I hang....no direction - other than own self improvement...very little hope, but still trying.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

On a side note, weight loss isn't a problem. It's happening anyway. I'm having a hard enough time getting motivated for my typical jobs that have to be done before winter. My WW has been off her feet since July with an achilles tendon rupture. If there is one thing I'm good at, it's taking care of her. Problem is, those deposits weren't going into my account because she was extremely guilty about using me. Still doing 90% of the house chores leaves me little time for anything else. Self improvement I can handle.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

What she said sounded like an excuse. When she said she didn't worth you, something bigger she tried to hide and she didn't really care if you want to forgive her or no. So you don't have to say it so quickly until you get to know the whole truth... Instead of assuring her your forgiveness, you want to know the whole truth and you want her to come clean first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

You have a lot to give and to take care, but you have to wait until you're sure. She doesn't sound guilty but she does pretend she feels guilty in front of you, or she's guilty when it's more than just a EA, but she didn't tell you the truth.
Women don't feel guilty about their EA since nothing bad ever happens with OM. Why? they haven't betrayed their husbands, yet, she can't feel so guilty. There are only confusing feelings but not guilty feelings.
Sex is the main reason for all types of affairs. If there's no sex, there's no guilt. 
Women do have sex frustration with their husbands, that's why they search for validations & fantasies from other responsive men.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

When I had an EA for many years. I didn't feel guilty in front of my husband. Instead, I felt good about to meet that guy and I would have confusion when my husband appeared nice & warm to me.
The guilt wasn't for my husband but for my OM. As I was handcuffed with marriage and I felt terribly sorry that I treated my OM unfairly. I was guilty for my OM that I failed to take any commitment with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

She ahs told there was sex invloved as she put it , on and off. This went on for at least 7-8 years probably more. She says she doesn't love me anymore and is not sure if she can.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I feel like I'm wasting my time. But my heart won't let me stop.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

When she says I know too much, it's becuase I was able to read her sexting messages with him and that is how I revealed to her I knew about the affair.


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## athena (Oct 28, 2010)

I don't think you can "know too much". True intimacy in a marriage only comes with complete honesty. 

She is sorting out her feelings and physical touch is not something she feels comfortable with yet. If you try, it will only push her further away. 

You want to give her reasons to love you emotionally and physically. Be charming and confident, supportive and interested. You may be losing weight, but maybe you need some sexy muscle to really get her interested. 

she cheated because she was missing something. It can't hurt to beef up in these areas to show her she can actually get it from you. I doubt she could put it into words, but she may know it when she sees it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> She ahs told there was sex invloved as she put it , on and off. This went on for at least 7-8 years probably more. She says she doesn't love me anymore and is not sure if she can.


Thanks for more details. In this case, the only thing for her to do is falling back in love with you. 
First of all she needs to see hopes. You're fun, sexy, cool, loving, and supportive. Seek romance once a week. Bring her out or cook for her. Make it romantic! Try out new things that fullfill her fantasies. 
Her passion will FLY back to you when she finds sex with you is new & explosive. Some examples,  switching to some IC positions she prefers.
It sounds stupid, but every small thing you make her happy counts. That requires you to understand her interests and curiosities. 
After gaining too much weights, some IC positions for men are limited. So first thing would be exercise & get fit. Timing is also a crucial request for women, some women can't get enough satisfaction because husbands cum too quickly, a cream that helps men to postpone the ejaculation, can be purchased at sex toy shop. Women who have PA are adventurous, horny and playful. 
Tell her, you will do anything to make her happy in bed, go to adult shop together and let her to buy whatever she wants to try out. You want to fullfill her every need & curiosity. She would turn to you for her needs and validations when you're responsive.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> ...Problem is, those deposits weren't going into my account because she was extremely guilty about using me. ...


8yearscheating~

The first thing you are going to have to accept is that she was doing this for 8 years. That's a long time. This is important because it means that it became a way-of-life for her, and even if she were absolutely willing to completely stop it and give you a full chance, it would take her awhile--possibly months or a year--to really adjust all the way and learn a new way-of-life that also feels natural to her. So you are not going to accomplish in 2 weeks what took her 8 years to build. My first advice to you would be to accept that this is going to take a long time and will not be an "instant fix."

The second thing right now she is in mourning. Now this may not make you feel "happy" but it's honest. From her point of view, she lost someone she cared about who seemed to care back about her...and she may have also lost the friendships of people who associated with OM. So to some degree if you can envision a drug addict going through withdrawal and simultaneously someone dies in the family--that's about what she's going through. And while she feels like that, YOU want her to feel like being physical with you!  I'm not being mean but rather just say--when you find out your best friend from 4th grade died and at the same time you're trying to stop drinking--do you feel like snuggling, cuddling, holding hands, making out, kissing, or having sex? Maybe to release tension--but not to "make love" because you feel close! So try to put yourself in her shoes. 

The third thing I'll point out is that if you understand the "deposits" thing, you know that there are actions that deposit love and build the love account, and there are actions that withdraw love and lower the love account. We personally use the image of a fire instead: there are actions that KINDLE the fire and make it blaze hotter, and there are actions that EXTINGUISH the fire like dribbling or dumping water on the fire. What often happens is that people immediately think: "Oh! I know what I'll do! I'll start adding a few kindler things and that will make the fire grow" but they don't work at all on the extinguisher things. So what happens? They kindle--extinguish--kindle--extinguish. The fire doesn't grow, it feels like they put in all that effort for nothing, and it's like spinning tires in the mud! Sound familiar? The trick to rebuilding love is to not only do those kindler things that people have told you here in this thread (look good, be a little romantic, etc.) but also to admit the extinguisher things to yourself and then work on stopping them. Honestly stopping the extinguisher things is even more important than the kindlers!! Think about it. Let's assume that one of the extinguishers she has mentioned in the past is "Spending too much time at work and not enough attention on me." In the past maybe you thought, "Oh babe, we'll have time for vacations and attention as soon as <insert goal here>" Sadly life goes by and the goal ("I get promoted" or "We make $50k a year") is never attained...and she never gets attention. Furthermore, it become YOUR way-of-life! So there you go--THAT is the extinguisher to work on! Don't promise her "I'll spend more time with you, I swear!" because she'll just think, "Yeah right! I've heard that before." Nope. Just DO IT. Hang out with her. Be her best friend. Temporarily take off your "lover and husband" hat and put on your "bestest friend from college who'll listen to you supportively" hat. Show her that you can be her friend and have FUN with her. 

Okay so there's three things.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I get it about the touching and me now being like a stranger to her. I am doing everything I can to try and make myself the "better choice" by both changing the things she feels were major issues AND trying to show her I want to be her friend and husband. My biggest problem is trying NOT to talk to her much as she calls it pressure. She still claims she hasn't had contact with OM but won't open her phone records either. Still just hanging waiting for something to change while I try and make my own changes.


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

MsLonely said:


> When I had an EA for many years. I didn't feel guilty in front of my husband. Instead, I felt good about to meet that guy and I would have confusion when my husband appeared nice & warm to me.
> The guilt wasn't for my husband but for my OM. As I was handcuffed with marriage and I felt terribly sorry that I treated my OM unfairly. I was guilty for my OM that I failed to take any commitment with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


..." The guilt wasn't for my husband but for my OM......"

so I am sure you must have dumped your H for OM , right ?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Here are some of the big issues I see, 8yearscheating. 

First, *she* says it's over and she's not in contact with OM, but *she* also said she'd forsake all others and covered up her infidelity for eight years. She is a skilled liar, and I'm not being judgmental there--just factually accurate. Therefore, if I were in your shoes I would require confirming PROOF that she's not in contact or I would assume she *is in contact!!* Confirming proof to my mind would be if she let you see her phone bill or voluntarily gave you the phone every day. Allowing you to look and showing you that she is telling the truth is called transparent honesty and it's backed by accountability. Until she does actions like that, do not assume there is no contact, but rather that the contact has gone more underground. 

Second, she is in the house, you are not telling the kids and keeping it a secret, and she "needs time to figure out what she wants to do." In reality you are being complicit helping her continue her affair. Your marriage can not survive an affair, and you need it to be completely ENDED. The kindlers and extinguishers are an okay thing for you to work on, because overall it makes you a better man and better person, but they will be the MOST effective when the affair is confirmed over. As long as the affair is ongoing, it will do you some good, and she'll see signs of the changes in you and may be confused by them, but it won't be rebuilding your marriage. (You rebuild your marriage when TWO people are working at it together: husband -and- wife.) 

So job #1 has got to be ending the affair. Then job #2 is rebuilding the marriage. 

She is anxious at our touch because she "needs time to think" and says she's separated and won't show you her phone. Baloney! She's anxious because she's probably still phoning the OM and her loyalty is to him! 

So here comes the hard part. You need to get a backbone. You can not control her or make demands--if you do you are acting in the ways that drove her away in the first place. But you CAN control YOU and what you will and will not allow in your life. How did she carry on her affair for eight years again? OH YEAH--over that phone that she's hiding! So let her know that if she wants to have the benefits and comforts of the marital home and your finances, that you require 100% of her affection and loyalty--and you'll accept nothing less. For her to continue being in the home, she needs to do three things: 

1) Write a No Contact Letter to the OM that she gives to you to send to him. 

2) Agree to transparent honesty. She used her cell phone to carry on the affair so it is non-negotiable that she voluntarily give you access to her phone and phone records (via giving you the passwords or showing you), that she voluntarily allow you to access her email, and that she voluntarily give you ways to confirm her honesty. Likewise you offer her the same. Let her see you phone, your emails, and access your PC. Let her confirm your actions. If she says it's a violation of privacy--no. Don't fall for it. "Privacy" is closing the door when you go to the bathroom or when you change clothing; it's modesty. "SECRECY" is hiding the true you, what you're truly doing, and who you're doing it with. There can be a place for privacy in a marriage, but there is no place for SECRECY!!

3) Commitment to work on her personal issues and the marriage issues to build the happy, loving relationship she wants--while you also agree to commit to working on YOUR personal issues and the marriage issues that lead to this. The idea here is that she won't blame it all on you and you won't blame it all on her; you will look at yourself and she will look at herself and be willing to admit that she has some work to do! 

So require those three things: 1) No Contact, 2) Transparent Honesty, and 3) Commitment. If she is not willing to do these things then she NEEDS to experience the natural consequences of her choices to be unfaithful. She needs to realize she has no place to live and the OM isn't going to supply her with one! She needs to realize that the children are going to be told the truth. This is the loving thing to do so she can grow and mature, and learn that infidelity comes with a cost. 

Okay?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My wife also cheated for at least 8 years and covered it up successfully for another 8.

It is a maddeningly terrible nightmare to live like this.

I did all the right things as far as trying to get over it, marriage counseling, the no contact letter, etc.

The problem was, all of my efforts were genuine. NONE of hers were.

The expert liar/cheating wife used my genuine attempts as a springboard for a deeper level of deception.

So all I can say is that the truth will out eventually but at what cost? Half a lifetime?

Take it from me, it has not really been worth it relationshipwise to have hung in there.

And know that the lengths a cheater can go far exceeds your ability to fathom the level of deception they will use to cheat.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

bestplayer said:


> ..." The guilt wasn't for my husband but for my OM......"
> 
> so I am sure you must have dumped your H for OM , right ?


No. In that case, why got guilt for my OM??
I don't want to leave my husband, that's why I felt sorry & guilty for my OM that I can't take any commitment with him when he hinted if I could divorce, he would do whatever to take my husband's place. 
Affairs are complicated. To make the wife leave, OM must not have chance to continue showing her his affection. OM must move on and get lost.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I get it about the touching and me now being like a stranger to her. I am doing everything I can to try and make myself the "better choice" by both changing the things she feels were major issues AND trying to show her I want to be her friend and husband. My biggest problem is trying NOT to talk to her much as she calls it pressure. She still claims she hasn't had contact with OM but won't open her phone records either. Still just hanging waiting for something to change while I try and make my own changes.


Keep doing the good work! Your wife understands your every small improvement. When you show you are the best husband for her. She would cut off the contact by herself. I'm sure that every OM is some kind of jerk no matter he's single or married. Stealing people's wives, he must have some defects in his characters and moral values. Your wife would find out by herself. Give her some time & space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I feel like I'm wasting my time. But my heart won't let me stop.


I can see there's still hope in your marriage. Allow me tell you why.

1. What she wanted was just sex.

2. She has been having sex with that guy for 8 years without asking you for a divorce- that means she still loves you as her family. She loves you as the father of her children.

3. As soon you're able to have sex with her in the way she appreciates, and you're generous & reponsive to her fantasies & sexual needs, because she still loves you, her passion would come back to you (very quickly)

4. She can fall back in love with you, if you love & appreciate her playfulness.

Women who have PA for many years are adventurous & wild women (hot in bed). When sex with her husband became a routine, she would get bored. (everybody gets bored)

It's like you can't keep a horse locked in a stable all day for many years. She needs to run in the feild freely to express herself, because that makes her healthy & happy.

When you understand & fullfill her fantasies & dreams, plus you are her husband, she would be the happiest woman in the world.

There's a hope that she can fall back in love with you!

Don't give up! Everything you make her feel she's special, beautiful & desirable, counts.

:smthumbup:

P.S. The OM must get lost.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

MsLonely said:


> Women who have PA for many years are adventurous & wild women (hot in bed). When sex with her husband became a routine, she would get bored. (everybody gets bored)


This may not be true at all. This is your experience, it isn't for others.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks Athena and steadying words Affaircare. I am trying to identify the biggest extinguishers and work on them since it is all I can do right now. Waiting for her to reach out.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

michzz said:


> This may not be true at all. This is your experience, it isn't for others.


I don't have experiences for PA but if I would get a OM for 8 years for sex, I must be adventurous enough for doing it.

I had an EA for 4 years, but I had no guts to put my fantasies into action.

You can use other adjectives, expect mine, but you can't say a woman who has PA for many years isn't into sex very much. You can't say she dare not to take any risks.

That can't apply for any PA, either! Did you ever have PA? Without being playful and adventurous, you can't do it.

BTW, it's true that when sex becomes an old routine, everybody losts interests.

Many wives in the end would rather musterbate than offer their convenient ass for their husbands when their sexual life is blahhhh.

Ususally, their husbands have no clues. I have a thread revealing the truth: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/17813-how-often-do-you-feel-horny-need-answers-women.html

After you read it, you can come to tell me again what you think.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Thanks Athena and steadying words Affaircare. I am trying to identify the biggest extinguishers and work on them since it is all I can do right now. Waiting for her to reach out.



Has your wife showed her appreciation to your work so far?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

MsLonely said:


> Has your wife showed her appreciation to your work so far?



Only as far as very quiet thank you. sometimes. The other night I suggested a common calendar as way of not making my questions about where she is so intrusive. It would be real simple to do and have it sync with her phone, Her response was, "If I decide to let you back in my life, maybe." I told her that really hurt and walked away. Rmember, I'm still dooing all of the house work becuase she has a very ahrd time going up and down the stairs since her achilles surgery and a bad knee. Even that doesn't seem to bank me any points.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Yes, great job AC! I also want to add to think about her behavior as a tennager who was just caught skipping school for the majority of their time... the feeling of wanting to run away is due to not wanting to face the reality of what they have done. While they were getting away with not going to school, they were probably having fun and nobody knew about it except the friends around... all positive reinforcements. Once the school catches on and tells the parents and the parents confront the kid... the kid wants to hide in a hole, or run away or yell back and try to defend. So her behavior is perfectly expected.

The hardest part about going back to the spouse is that the other person was all positive bc its not "real" its fantasy or lie. No spouse can compare to that! But, you can get rid of those extinguishers that AC mentioned... 

My husbands affair was going on for years and he is just now starting to be nicer again towrds me (a year and a half after discovery). He was hell on wheels towards me for most of that year and if we didnt have kids that loved him, I would have left bc his behavior was so violent. He was throwing tantrums... just adult sized ones. Hang in there!


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

thanks too late. I'm trying. I keep doing stupid things though. This morning I went by her work to see if she went straight there - OM does not work there. She wasn't so I texted her and asked where she was. She had dressed up this morning for some meetings so I was on edge that something might be up. SHe wouldn't answer me so I finnaly asked if she had any contact with the OM or was with him now. She replied F#$k you and where shewas. I told her I was sorry, it was becaase she wouldn't respond. Her sister is supposed to hook up with her lunch this weekend. I'm sure she will be a stabillizing influence. Not pinning to much hope on it though. Only time will tell.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> thanks too late. I'm trying. I keep doing stupid things though. This morning I went by her work to see if she went straight there - OM does not work there. She wasn't so I texted her and asked where she was. She had dressed up this morning for some meetings so I was on edge that something might be up. SHe wouldn't answer me so I finnaly asked if she had any contact with the OM or was with him now. She replied F#$k you and where shewas. I told her I was sorry, it was becaase she wouldn't respond. Her sister is supposed to hook up with her lunch this weekend. I'm sure she will be a stabillizing influence. Not pinning to much hope on it though. Only time will tell.


I'm sorry to hear that. Sorry to say but your wife is being very mean and she doesn't respect you at all. 

Don't you consider leaving her? 

Did you expose the OM to his wife already?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

MsLonely said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. Sorry to say but your wife is being very mean and she doesn't respect you at all.
> 
> Don't you consider leaving her?
> 
> Did you expose the OM to his wife already?



I have considered ending it with her. I still love her. While she reacts that way, she will also say she hasn't made up her mind if we can work things out so it is very one sided. Only I am am trying.

As far as exposing him to his wife, I'm afraid it would only serve to close or destroy what little is left with my wife. If things don't turn for the better, I will. Unfortunately the OM is my 15 year old daughters Godfather. A relationship I have also asked be ended permanently. 

I'm of the belief that if I tell my kids it will only hurt their impression of her and if we get back together that would be bad. If we don't, well again I'll see what happens.

Remember if we separate and I have created an adversarial relationship, she will want to bury us both in lawyer fees. I have to remain calm until the paperworks done.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

Hope for the best, prepare for the worse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

athena said:


> I don't think that is necessarily true. She may have no contact, but she could still have feelings for OM and be going through withdrawal for that addiction.
> 
> Or, she may have lost her attraction to you - emotionally and physically. Physical touch would not be comfortable then.
> 
> ...


I too am a WW and some of what athena has posted is so amazingly accurate. But in my opinion your _physical appearance doesn't have anything to do with it_. It think it runs much deeper. More emotional. I am going through now what you have described your wife as feeling/doing. There isn't any contact with xMM...there hasn't been for nearly 6mos now. 

My affair began after MC, and our seperation (under the same roof). It lasted a year and a half. And it was very emotional and physical. OM showed me love that my husband wouldn't. OM told me he loved me, when my husband wouldn't. My husband discovered the affair and intervened. He anonymously emailed OM's wife. 

Your wife is going through so many crazy emotions right now. And unfortunately, it may never change. It's hard to go back to a relationship that was lacking...when you felt you had everything in the affair. And you felt loved. She is dealing with the end of the affair, which probably ended horribly...with hurt. There is a grieving process. She is also dealing with her failed marriage with LOADS to decide. Keep in mind that most affairs for women are based on emotional bonding...not sexual. 

I don't think my husband and I are going to get through it. You can forgive...but you can't forget. Either of you. My husband is ready to move on and start new life with us, married. But the emotional connection is missing and the disrespect is still there...it was never really there, his immaturity really. I am so sorry that you are going through this. I don't know what the answer is.


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## sophiasfriend (Oct 22, 2010)

My husband discovered my 13 year affair about 6 weeks ago. We are trying to rebuild our marriage. In my case I wanted to just say "ok I did a bad thing" and move on. I really did not want to look at details of what I had done and what my other relationship was really about. After recontacting the OM and nearly blowing any chance of reconciling with my husband (which I truly do want) I realized that there were three things that had to happen for us to have a shot at rebuilding: 1) I had to look at all of the phone bills, text messages, calendars, etc so that I could no longer fool myself as to how all consuming my relationship with the OM really was 2) I had to have the courage to answer ALL of my husbands questions, no matter how painful it was to say the answers out loud, 3) I had to open my life up ENTIRELY to my husband--*willingly*.

Until your wife is willing to do these things, she is not ready to commit to rebuilding. She is likely a mess of emotions and confused thoughts (as are you), and needs to do some soul searching as to what she wants. There are some very good books out there about surviving infidelity. Suggest to her that you and she pick one and read it, discussing it as you go along. It may help you both focus.

As for you...Please don't allow yourself OR her convince you that the suspicions, insecurity and worries you are experiencing are abnormal. Your foundation has been ROCKED and it's completely understandable for you to wonder,worry and, yes, even_ obsess_ about where she is and what she's doing. You've been fooled for a long time and don't want to be again.

I wish you luck. I hope you have someone you talk to on a regular basis to keep you a little bit grounded and supported until you and your wife make a decision on this. I'm learning that rebuilding takes 2 and will be a very long, very rough road. Hopefully mine and yours will end in happiness.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

The funny thing is snowstorm- my biggest issue to her was travelling too much. WHen I was home, I wanted to monopolize her time because I had missed her so much. SHe says I smothered her. I hated travel and constantly told her how much I missed her and loved her. I even set up skype webcams for us. Sophias frined - all she will say is right now she doesn't want to stay married. When I ask if I should start with the lawyer, she says she hasn't decided. Her reason for the no touch is she says I feel like a stranger. I will wait for her decision but i'm planning for the worst. Her sisters are supposed to spend time with her. I know they back the relationship. Oh and then there is the doctors statement that she is bipolar....


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## athena (Oct 28, 2010)

Snowstorm and sophiasfriend, seems we have a lot in common. 
You may be interested in the following thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/18123-thread-help-disloyals-figure-out-how-get-out-fog.html

Sophiasfriend - I am particularly interested in how you knew you wanted to fix your marriage. I am so hung up on my OM that spending any "quality time" with my husband is so unappealing right now. Did you just know right after D-day or did you work to get it to that point?

8years - if I get past my issues with the physical stuff, I'll let you know what worked. Don't expect anything soon  Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Athena - she considers me a stranger right now. I'm trying to work on both love busters and emotional needs though it's pretty hard when it's only me. I can wait for the physical stuff, I needed to the last time she had severe depression. I have told her my arms are open when she is ready and at the pace she wants. Right now she doesn't want me.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Athena - I've read your other posts and you sound very much like I think my wife feels. She keeps telling me she is not having any contact though she won't get rid of cell phone she bought 2 weeks ago nor will she open those phone records. Her response is she will let back in her life if she decides to - same goes for her schedule or where she is. 
She told me today she had an emotional day yesterday and not because of anything I did or said. 
She also tells me she can't understand why I still love her.
As the BH I'm doing the best I can to sit back and wait because she has said she hasn't decided finally she wants to divorce. Do you think that is the right thing to do?


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## betrayedman (Oct 20, 2010)

Dude I am a few months ahead of you on all this. I wondered what I could say to someone who is going through what I have and it mean something? My wife had an emotional affire that only lasted a few months that i found out about and thought i put a stop too. They texted and talked on facebook and I thought I could handle what she did b/c they didn't sleep together. Fastforward 6 months and I am drinking coffee in the kitchen when her blackberry went off and it was a text from just a #. It said I love you and dont want to lose you. Now I thought it was the same guy so imagine How I fealt when I found out it was a completely differant guy and found out that they were sleeping together even the night before when I was at work. Well, she decided to come clean and tell me what ever i wanted to know. So, I went for all details. I wish now that I would have just left. I figure we both would have had time to think about what we both wanted and then if it was in the cards for us we would have ended up together. Now fastforward 7 months from that day and here I am. I lost my job, had to move back to my home state with wife and children in towe. We are together still but I have no way of knowing how she truely feels for me cause it all feels like BS. I got what I wanted as far as her. But I don't have her heart. I have scared her into thinking that I will take the kids and she is scared of our family finding out. Point is she is a mess and so am I. We fight a lot about the OM and we do not have or talk about sex. I can tell when we watch a love story or something on tv about love she gets all sad. It sucks so bad. I should have had the b*lls to just cut my loses and walk away. Now she is broken hearted and I am depressed and we have put our family and us in a worst positon by trying to stay together. She has already told me that the love she has for this OM is more than she has ever fealt for me (the father of her children) or anyone else for that matter. I would say look ahead as much as possiable and think about what you want too. Its very noble of you to want to keeep your marriage together but it may not be worth everything that will come with it.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I won't let it go that long. ANd I'm sorry it turned out that way for you.


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## Seeker (Sep 1, 2010)

I was caught in an EA a year ago & my marriage has been rocky ever since. I still have feelings for the OM & have been in contact with him on & off. My husband made the mistake of quoting something he'd read about my feeling "emotionally uncomfortable" after I broke it off with the OM. Instead, I'm finding myself so deeply depressed that I've thought wistfully about suicide (thought I would never do it). Don't underestimate the amount of pain your wife is going through, whether it's right or wrong. Pain doesn't take sides. I'm having the same trouble with being physical with my husband, even though he's been patient beyond belief and has nothing to change. I'm seeing a therapist starting this week to try to climb out of this hole.


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## athena (Oct 28, 2010)

There is so much pain on both sides of an affair. 

8years - If she is hiding her phone, she is likely still in contact. I hide mine because I still am. It is a powerful addiction and it is still meeting her needs.

My husband is being patient and also waiting for the "switch" to flip or me to wake up and realize where i belong. While i enjoy the space (it gives me time to chat with my OM), i also feel like he is not trying anything. And this annoys me.

I am not a peach to be around right now. I am quite a prickly pear. I don't want to be touched and talking is tough. I am short with him and when we do talk, I am often complaining about his shortcomings. I wish I were nicer, but being nice feels too intimate. It is sad - I am nicer to the security guard at work! But he isn't going to try and hold my hand on the couch.

While we (wayward spouses) are in this crazy limbo, we are feeling depressed. We have 2 options (plan A and B) and are scared to go in either direction. We can stay and work on our marriages (and lose that OM that meets our needs) or we can leave our marriages (play house with OM to see if he can meet our needs better).

As you have probably read on the pro-marriage sites, plan A is smarter (aka responsible) and (gives the promise of being) less painful for everyone. As much as it pains me to say it, I really think that the wayward spouse does owe it to the loyal spouse to give them the first chance to meet all of their needs. And this means no contact (otherwise how will you know for sure).

I know it took me a month to get to this point and I doubt I'd be so open to it if I had it pushed on me. Perhaps your wife needs to be told about the two plans to give her some control in them. Ask her if playing house with the OM is what she really wants. If so, there are going to be some serious rules that go along with it. 

Obviously you need to sway her to giving you the first chance (who honestly believes "if you love something set it free. if it comes back to you it is yours forever" ?) But I think by you getting into her reality - the difficult choice in her face - and talking about her options, she may open up a bit. It won't happen overnight, but at least you'll get her thinking about it and perhaps thankful to you for showing understanding about her situation.

She feels alone and the only other one who "gets it" is the OM. You need to show her you know what she is going through and you will help her with that decision. You need to worm your way back into being her sounding board and eventually her best friend. Empathize with her instead of waiting in the wings. After all, isn't that how the OM got her attention in the first place ... time to try it yourself.

Does that make sense?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you Athena and wise suggestions. I did try to talk with two nights ago. She had a rough "emotional" day as she called it the day before. She told me that she could not tell me anythign more about the affair. If that was going to be problem for me we would not be able to work it out. I told her I could work past the addiitional informaiton but that I thought it best for her and I if she cleared the unanswered questions like how long, where and when. I don't want to know gory details. Just enough to know what to watch for. I know tactics and places can be changed. But I told her, I could past not knowing. I also told her she needed to forgive herself and work on feeling better. Everything is painted with black brush right now, especially me. NO doubt in my mind she is in a severe depression and they don't have the meds right yet and she isn't being straight with her doctor. I tell her I wish I could just hug her and make her feel that I do care, that we need each other right - not sexually - just for support. I ask her at least a couple of times every time I see her if she wants to talk. I also told her I know she has to be going through a form of withdrawl or mourning over the OM. That is assuming she is in no contact - which she says she is.

So, I try to change the things I think are bothering her though it's hard to know if I'm doing the right things because there is no feedback. I gave her the Lovebusters and emotional needs questionaires and asked if she would fill them out and sit with me to go over her's and mine. Nothing. I try not to pressure her. I continue to care for her to the point where she feels like she using me - she starts rejecting my help. - still doing 90% of the house work because of her achilles tendon and bad knee on the other leg.

Bought her flower, some cards, wrote some love notes. No reaction on any of it. I feel like I'm a million miles aways and drifting further away.

I thought i had pulled back from the edge. It's looking too close right now.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

When you siad this Athena "While i enjoy the space (it gives me time to chat with my OM), i also feel like he is not trying anything. And this annoys me."

Do you mean your H is not trying anything? What anything - to improve for you? See my previous post - how does he do anything to address your complaints if you not working with him?

AS far as making house, the OM is married and I know he's told her he can't do anything his daughter is out of college - 2-3 years - that's a promise in the dark. He won't provide any financial or other support. If I find out it's over with my WW, I will let his wife know.


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

athena said:


> There is so much pain on both sides of an affair.
> 
> 8years - If she is hiding her phone, she is likely still in contact. I hide mine because I still am. It is a powerful addiction and it is still meeting her needs.
> 
> ...


".......There is so much pain on both sides of an affair..."

Pain is on both sides but the difference is that the betrayed spouse feels the pain because of loss of love & trust from his/her partner while the WW's pain is because of missing his/her affair partner & this pain isn't related to BS at all .

Best of luck


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

How is it possible? After she gave you all these craps, you accepted her mistakes without receiving a apology from her?! 

You forgave her & you're willing to rebuild the marriage with her but you MUST wait until she's happy to decide. Does she really care about you feel hurt? 

Moreover, your wife seems *not happy *to see a great husband like you- still loves her, being kind, patient & tolerating...

I'm sorry to point out this pain, but what made her so hesitated to rekindle with a loving & forgiving husband like you?

The woman you deeply love in your memories was no long the woman you know - your wife is not that wonderful woman anymore. 

To explain her current behavior, I can tell you she places her choice of the OM before her choice of you. 

As soon the OM agrees to get divorced with his wife, your wife would immediately tell you, she wants a divorce.

This simple reason explains why she won't cut her contact, nor she's remorseful to you. 

Nothing's gonna make her feel extremely sorry, except giving up her passion, her lust & excitements with the OM. 

All the emotional & physical stuffs with her lover were exactly those things she can't let go. In fact, she won't let go & she's never let him go; therefore, she still keeps & protects him with care. 

When it's 8 year cheating, it's more than just sex as she claimed. 

I'm not defending her anymore nor I should continue encouraging you to wait for her without a valid reason.

I know you love your wife deeply, but she's not the wonderful woman in your memories anymore... 

What is the meaning for you to wait for her final decision without a hope for a brighter future?

She's the one who betrayed the marriage but you're the one waiting for her judgement?! It sounds very unreasonable.

I know what she's thinking & I know what she wants: 
(I'm very sorry for you!)

She's waiting for the OM to reply her a "Yes," so she would dump you & walk away proudly... (Your wife might naively think her lover really cares about her but she didn't know she's wrong.) 

The OM, won't reply her a "Yes," but to keep her pending. 

In fact, he not only cares about his marriage, his wife & kids, he also feels sorry for himself to give up a free piece of exciting meat (your wife) as his free entertainments. 

Nevertheless, your wife won't let him go, even knowing he's not gonna take her seriously & responsibly. She would accept any non-sense excuses for not getting divorced with his wife from the OM. 

To keep each other as secret lovers, to continue the excitments & lust, they would come up a perfect plan to meet each other in the future in a even darker place for their lust. Nobody is gonna find out.

Are you sure you really want a disloyal wife for the rest of your life? 

She has not only messed up her & your marriage, but also others. She's no longer the wonderful woman you've married. She's become evil.

Please stand strong for yourself!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

This is a fasanating thread - I've rarely read such candid comments from women active in affairs. Athena you're very honest and it's helpful.

Here's my take, having lived through a similar thing: Anthea, you basically sound like a sociopath when you talk about your husband. I'm assuming you aren't - it's just you have slotted your husband in the he'll take care of me but I feel nothing pile, because right now you control him. He wants you more than you want him. The OM is a little f*ck toy that makes you feel good, but you know in your heart if you take the chance on OM, he'll fail your expectations in the long run. No man will ever keep up the fun forever.

It's like you're a cat and your husband is a little mouse, and you have dispationate contempt for his weakness. I suspect many women active in affairs feel exactly as you do. (Read Women's Infidelity ebook - it's very similar.)

So the real question for the betrayed man is, how long are you willing to be a pathetic little mouse? At what point does YOUR need to be happy, outweigh your need to be loyal and keep alive the hope that you can somehow help your little sociopath to snap out of it. 

For me, it took getting over her, dating and being with other women, for my WW to stop viewing me as a little mouse she could manipulate. That had to happen twice, during two different separations. Even now when I start to have normal betrayed, f*cked up feelings, and I communicate them, I can feel her turn off me.

So, if I was Anthea's husband, I'd tell her to get the hell out of my life, that she can have her little f*ck toy OM, and be done with her. And that, ironically, would probably give me the best shot of winning her back because I'd stop being a little mouse and she may start to view me with a little more respect. The same may be true with your wife.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Another thought on this:

This whole dynamic really challenges the whole notion of romantic love for me. It's ironic that cheating women in particular (but happens for men too), place such a high value on "love" with the affair partner, which causes them to act in the most unloving, truly contemptuous, evil ways to their husbands. When in actuality, the husband trying to hang there is a true act of love. 

She is basically a drug addict, hooked on "love" endorphines. And the suffering of the husband is part of the fuel for that addiction, otherwise she'd just come clean and tell him the truth. She needs him there, and that feeling of having power and choice, to keep up the excitement with the OM.

It's all seems so very evil. I guess all addictions are. But that it stems from this false idea of "romanic love", personally, makes it difficult for me to feel anything.

Seemed somehow relevant to thread. Sorry if I've steered you off course.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

athena said:


> There is so much pain on both sides of an affair.
> 
> 8years - If she is hiding her phone, she is likely still in contact. I hide mine because I still am. It is a powerful addiction and it is still meeting her needs.
> 
> ...


Don't you think you can make it easier for your husband if you would just leave your husband alone instead of keeping both men pending? Especially the one who truely loves you & married you.

It's unfair!

What needs did the OM meet for you? Lust?


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> This is a fasanating thread - I've rarely read such candid comments from women active in affairs. Athena you're very honest and it's helpful.
> 
> Here's my take, having lived through a similar thing: Anthea, you basically sound like a sociopath when you talk about your husband. I'm assuming you aren't - it's just you have slotted your husband in the he'll take care of me but I feel nothing pile, because right now you control him. He wants you more than you want him. The OM is a little f*ck toy that makes you feel good, but you know in your heart if you take the chance on OM, he'll fail your expectations in the long run. No man will ever keep up the fun forever.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Another thought on this:
> 
> This whole dynamic really challenges the whole notion of romantic love for me. It's ironic that cheating women in particular (but happens for men too), place such a high value on "love" with the affair partner, which causes them to act in the most unloving, truly contemptuous, evil ways to their husbands. When in actuality, the husband trying to hang there is a true act of love.
> 
> ...


Romantic love doesn't belong to cheaters.
It's all about finding & hiding in a dark place for a F, they can't even walk on the street hand in hand, where got romance?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I will maintaining my course trying to change what I can, though I'm still not sure if she is even interested in trying. I do think she has cut off contact.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting side note. I left a lovebusters questionaire with her. Found it on our (mine at the moment) bed this morning. Hopefully a good sign. Put the Emotional needs questionaire on her bed and sent her a text thanking her for being honest.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Interesting side note. I left a lovebusters questionaire with her. Found it on our (mine at the moment) bed this morning. Hopefully a good sign. Put the Emotional needs questionaire on her bed and sent her a text thanking her for being honest.


I can see you're doing your best to repair your marriage although she's the one who damaged it the most. It seems you have figured out a creative way to communicate with her & she also "honestly" responded to your questionaire, so it's a good attempt to break the ice.
I hope she would be more responsive to you day after day... There're still some doubts that she already cut off her contact with the OM, when she still feels hesitated to repair the marriage with you. Or when she's not even interests in trying things. It's possible that she would hide her contact much more carefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I may be placing too much hope in this, however, she went up to see her older sister today who told me she was going to try and get through to her about the choices she was making. I'll take all the help I can get. Reading through the lovebusters, some of her comments I don't remember doing in 20 years. It was obvious she wrote it while in a fowl humor. I seem to notice her cycling like bipolar. Happy and then rapidly very depressed. Her doctor is the same as mine so I plan on asking him what he going to do next with her meds. Still holding on.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> ... It was obvious she wrote it while in a fowl humor. I seem to notice her cycling like bipolar. Happy and then rapidly very depressed. Her doctor is the same as mine so I plan on asking him what he going to do next with her meds. Still holding on.


Two quick notes for you, 8yearscheating:

*1) Regarding the LoveBusters Questionnaire.* When a person is actively involved in infidelity, they do tend to paint their spouse "all bad" and paint the OP "all good." They magnify the hurtful things at home and minimize any possibility of hurtful things with the OP--simultaneously magnifying the positives of the affair while minimizing the positives at home. But chances are about 100% that there is still MUCH you can glean from the LoveBusters Questionnaire even if some of it is "historically inaccurate." 

Let's assume, for instance, that she said on the questionnaire that you have been a domineering controlling husband for most of your marriage and you have angry outbursts level 9 every day for the past 3 years. In REAL LIFE you probably didn't understand the difference between respectfully requesting and "I'm going to make her stop doing that" so that in real life you did, rarely, act in a controlling way. And when you discovered the affair you did in fact scream at her that night, and since then she feels the guilt of having been unfaithful and even though you don't say anything, she thinks you disapprove and you're yelling at her. 

What you can glean is a kernel of truth based on what she said, and you can also glean an indication of the thing you do that hurts her the worst, and you can also glean a general direction toward which you could be working or heading. Using my example, you could glean the kernel of truth that you did behave in a controlling way but at the time you didn't realize it was controlling and now you do know the difference. Still it could do some serious mending to let her know that you realize now you did treat her like a father and not as your equal partner, and apologize for those past mistakes. Likewise, you can glean the indication that she needs some respect and make have a personal issue of self-worth to work on. Finally, you can glean that one area you could work on that would bring you two closer together is letting her know that you still see her value as a woman and wife, even though you know about her infidelity. (This is an example) She may feel more guilt internally than you could ever lay on her so now you know that is an area at the very least to tread pretty lightly on. That's not to say she should avoid being responsible for her choices, but it's like a burr under her blanket that she already put there and you don't need to sit back on it and make it hurt worse. Depending on you, it's conceivable you may want to tell her "Okay I'm putting on my heart shield and I'm going to not take ANY of this personally. Today I'm your BEST FRIEND and not your husband, and as your best friend...let's talk. Tell me what's on your heart and I'll hug you while you talk." 

So yep, she may have been in a foul mood, but don't dismiss it. She had the courage to answer you when keeping it to herself was MUCH more safe! It may not be entirely "historically accurate" but it may give you a very good window into her soul. I would suggest not debating the "historical facts" of what she said so much as saying that it seemed fairly different to you and you don't really understand it that well--and you WANT to understand. It's conceivable she may be able to give you example after example after example and you'll say to yourself: "Wow I did do that and I had no idea it felt like that to you!" Okay? 

*2) Regarding being bipolar*, I want to say right now that I am not a medical doctor nor a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I have known several bipolar people, and it's my understanding that rapid-cycling bipolar is pretty rare and is somewhat slower than what you are describing. Rapid-cycling bipolar is defined as having four or more distinct episodes of mania/depression in one year. In addition, I don't really hear words in your post here that sound like mania--which is typically getting VERY little sleep, talking faster, thoughts/ideas racing (but not making a lot of sense), irresistible impulsiveness, hypersexuality and sort of odd lack of judgment, and flights of creativity that are ... just unusual. Let me give you a perfect example of a manic episode--staying up until 2am yelling about the socks being folded incorrectly, then pacing the floor, then tramping into the kitchen to rearrange the pots and pans, then leaving the house and coming home CURSING and yelling because no hardware stores are open at 3am--because they wanted red paint to paint the livingroom red (at 3am) because red would set off the golds in the couch...then wanting to have sex and being upset that you don't want to because it's now 4am and you need to work in the morning. See how that whole episode just seems sort of weird and not entirely "crazy" but not real firmly grounded in reality either? 

My guess is that if your wife seems mostly depressed but occasionally does better and then occasionally snaps and gets cranky, it may not be a disorder but rather just the normal rollercoaster of emotions associated with infidelity. For example, if she has truly ended contact with the OM, then she would go through withdrawal symptoms similar to what a drug addict might go through: (little "d") depression, anxiety and craving. In addition, because the 'affair zing' was actually the brain chemistry of a natural amphetamine, she would have extreme loss of the feelings of pleasure, enjoyment, happiness etc. for a while as her serotonin levels decrease and she adjusts to it (this is like dysforia). Anyway my point is that as she starts, she'd be crying a lot and pretty darn depressed! That would continue for a while as she adjusts to no longer having that chemical 'zing' and during that time she might have "better days" and then there'd be a trigger or just a chemical drop and she'd have a "worse day". Those kinds of ups and downs are pretty normal. 

My point here is just to suggest that before you jump to a label or try to medicate her into "feeling happier" you may want to read a bit more on Bipolar I, Bipolar II and Mixed Bipolar and see if it truly fits. Further, you may want to read some articles on The Chemistry of Love or check Helen Fisher's book "Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love" I think it might help explain what's going on a little.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

All your points ar well taken. On the bIpolar, it was her doctor that indicated that was his opinion. She went through severe post partum which then turned in a deep long term depression. After that it cycled about every year or two.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

My plan was to take each page and discuss them every other day or as often as she will allow - starting with her top item. Try to discuss what she thinks is the best way for me to resolve those items. We will see if she does the emotional needs questionaire. Ideally, I'd like to use them as a starting point with a marriage couselor if she decides to try. In the mean time, I will try on my own to change what I can.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> My plan was to take each page and discuss them every other day or as often as she will allow - starting with her top item. Try to discuss what she thinks is the best way for me to resolve those items. We will see if she does the emotional needs questionaire. Ideally, I'd like to use them as a starting point with a marriage couselor if she decides to try. In the mean time, I will try on my own to change what I can.


Your plan looks great to take as first step! Wish her sister also helps you out with her choices. Do you exactly know what her choices are about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Ms. Lonely,
According to her sister, the OM is not in the picture and she is not interested in going back to him. I'm sure that is contingent on us working things out, at least it's a start. My WW told me she needs to figure out if she stay with me after what she has done to me - the guilt is finally the key issue. I'm still working ont he things she listed as love busters. Don't think she is ready to start Marriage Counseling. Not ready to commit yet.

How can I help her? How can lessen her fears and get her tounderstand the guilt can be worked through? Any thougts from yourself or Athena?


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

In response to several previous posts that seem to be missing the point:
You are aware the affair has happened. You nor she can change it. You are in affair fallout. Yes, you can hate her, not trust her, and divorce her. But you don't want to. You want to move forward...not wallow in "what kind" of person she is to do this.

I honestly believe the OM is gone.

Contrary to what others say, she is going through hell in her mind. She was emotionally involved with OM. He probably filled her head full of promises that are empty. When an affair ends, it can be traumatic...because it ends suddenly. One minute that person is in your life, the next gone forever. It's like someone has died. And you are left to grieve...alone. Your heart has to catch up with your head. You know what's right and what needs to be done...but your heart grieves. I felt like OM had been involved in a car accident and killed instantly or died terminally...he was apart of my day every day...then the I love yous were gone. Just like that. 

Now, consider this. She is also grieving your marriage. And knows what she has done is wrong. Wrong to you. She feels like the most worthless person on earth and has no OM to pick up the pieces like she did before. 

The question is are you willing to hang in there while the emotional scars heal? While she decides her love for you too? I understand it isn't fair...it's not suppose be. It's a bad situation. You have to do some soul searching and decide if you can live all of this. Forgetting takes a lifetime. For both of you. She isn't going to forget OM...and neither are you. But in time, life will begin replacing memories so they aren't so fresh on the surface. 

You are a victim. And I am sorry that you are still having to focus on her and not yourself. I am sorry that you are having to reel in your marriage. Many others will tell you to let her do the work. That if she isn't than leave. She isn't worth it. But right now, she isn't in the emotional state to take the bull by the horns. So you are doing the right thing. I really hope time heals...that the affair didn't scar so much that she can't go back to life she once knew...I hope you both can bond again.

Please don't take this post in the wrong light. I am trying to express how your wife might feel from someone that has been there...and still going through. I was seperated when I started seeing OM (an old friend). Our friendship evolved based on shared marital stress. Nonetheless, I wasn't divorced. And I regret what I did.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

Athena wrote _"She feels alone and the only other one who "gets it" is the OM. You need to show her you know what she is going through and you will help her with that decision. You need to worm your way back into being her sounding board and eventually her best friend. Empathize with her instead of waiting in the wings. After all, isn't that how the OM got her attention in the first place ... time to try it yourself."_

Exactly. And very well said.

Also 8yrs, I have been NC with OM for 6mos now. I am still not ready to let my husband in. No, we aren't intimate and I too am a prickly pear...I don't like spending time with him because I am uncomfortable and I don't know where we are or where we are going. And we just don't get along. Can't agree on anything. Everything he does annoys me. I guess I am stuck in avoidance. My husband just says that I hate him. 
My behavior does not mean the OM is still in my life, though it may seem that way. It means our marriage needs work. It means we need work. It means affairs just don't happen. Something was lacking to begin with. And because the affair is over, doesn't mean it's all fixable. Nor we should be on the same page. 
My husband wanted to be intimate last week. I said no. I think it causes confusion in our relationship right now. He said "I forgive you for the affair and lets just move on. Forget things ever happened. I can be more affectionate...I can change." But in doing so, he never looked me in the eye...nor did he say I love you. See? He thinks he is ready. He thinks that I had an affair because of loss of affection!? It's easy to say lets sweep it under the rug and keep moving on. 
I am in IC. He isn't aware that I am. In the midst of the affair, so many things are said and done in a marriage. And hurt happens. Sometimes you just can't go back.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I sent her this link and said maybe this will help - it's what most others go through.
The Cheating Partner: How to Cope with Your Emotions and Restore Trust with Your Spouse

Her response: It doesn't. I'm not even close to being there yet and not sure if I ever will be. 

Ripped my heart out - again.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

She appears no closer to deciding to work through it than before. I'll give her all the time she needs. It huts so bad to be on the outside of my own marriage and to feel the million mile distance between us. I don't need sex - just some compassion and a desire on her part to support each other.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

That hurts. I too, need things that my husband just isnt willing to give, do, say, admit to. Im actually moving to another place during the week so I can be near my kids school and friends. My husband chooses a location over our relationship. Very sad today, but hopefully you can see how bad it is to have a spouse who cheats or considers cheating... it doesnt come out of the blue for no reason. She may perceive you as that bad, for other reasons you may not even be aware of. My husband thinks he is perfect, he doesnt do anything wrong. He thinks by doing the little things he agreed to do (which he hasnt been doing) he is saving our marriage... these are baby steps to what he really needs to do. The things I requested are things a man does automatically for a woman he loves, a kiss hello, a quick txt, sexual interest. Thats why I asked you to really reflect on how SHE perceives YOU, bc you may think you are doing the right things, but she may not. SHe may also not know yet what she wants from you since it is still fresh. Hang in there.

Oh, and I removed my love extinguishers to do my part and sex increased... but only for one week! HUsband is much happier with our marriage now, too bad Im not. So hang in there, its a dance.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> Another thought on this:
> 
> This whole dynamic really challenges the whole notion of romantic love for me. It's ironic that cheating women in particular (but happens for men too), place such a high value on "love" with the affair partner, which causes them to act in the most unloving, truly contemptuous, evil ways to their husbands. When in actuality, the husband trying to hang there is a true act of love.
> 
> ...



I do like alot of what you said! I have to stand up for some women (or maybe it was just me) who had a strictly sexual affair. I was never in love, never treated my husband poorly... in fact I was able to be nice in the face of his contempt (from his fog bc he was asked by therapist and me to stop contact with other woman, it wasnt his choice and he was furious... bc he was still telling himself he didnt do anything wrong) bc I was getting laid, finally. I guess I am a high testosterone woman and it was only about sex for me. I think the OM was hurt when I ended it, and although curious about how he is doing sometimes, it isnt my problem... he isnt my husband/boyfriend etc. I cannot therefore, answer for women who were in love like the original posters wife... it was an easy choice emotionally bc I wasnt emotionally involved. I guess its not like that for most women.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

She claims it wasn't love with the OM. Just friendship and sex. She appears done with him. Though she is working through whether or not she wants to stay with me. I thought, and obviously incorrectly so, that she was in the grief and shame/guilt point.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

It's one of those days where I feel like I'm all done.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

8yearscheating - I can empathize with your situation: You are waiting patiently for her to find her footing. It's very noble and, on the surface, loving. I'd suggest you clarify your motivation to yourself, however. The risk is that by holding off on dealing with your own betrayal and pain, while you wait for her, the anger will build up and at some point it is going to come. You are in self-preservation mode, holding on to the last vestiges of your relationship. At some point the stress becomes too much. Are you waiting truly out of love, or because you fear a future alone?

Either way, take care of yourself. You and your needs are important, too.

As for the "affairs don't just happen" talk. That's not entirely true. Affairs, for the most part, are just a series of small choices to expand our boundaries. The cheater begins by lingering in a conversation with a member of the opposite sex a little too long. Allows an attraction to take hold. Shares a bit too much information. Lets the hug last a while longer than appropriate. Then start with the secret inappropriate emails, then the forbidden kiss, etc. The small secrets become bigger secrets.

It's all an insidious process, and happens because attention from new people feels good. The excuse that something was lacking in the marriage is a load of BS. The reality is that there are things lacking in EVERYONE'S marriage. 

She may have had unmet needs, but she was unwilling to communicate them to you. I'll bet you had unmet needs as well, but didn't seek another woman to deal with that problem.


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

snowstorm said:


> Athena wrote _"She feels alone and the only other one who "gets it" is the OM. You need to show her you know what she is going through and you will help her with that decision. You need to worm your way back into being her sounding board and eventually her best friend. Empathize with her instead of waiting in the wings. After all, isn't that how the OM got her attention in the first place ... time to try it yourself."_
> 
> Exactly. And very well said.
> 
> ...


* "..... Everything he does annoys me. I guess I am stuck in avoidance. My husband just says that I hate him....."*

well I really dont understand this , you loved your OM but you can't really stand you H so much that he feels like you hate him . Why dont you just end your sufferings by simply getting rid of your H ? 

Do you think it can ever work if one partner is trying too hard while the other isn't willing to fix the M , busy justifying his/her affair & still pining for OM ? 

Best of luck


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Ms. Lonely,
> According to her sister, the OM is not in the picture and she is not interested in going back to him. I'm sure that is contingent on us working things out, at least it's a start. * My WW told me she needs to figure out if she stay with me after what she has done to me - the guilt is finally the key issue. * I'm still working ont he things she listed as love busters. Don't think she is ready to start Marriage Counseling. Not ready to commit yet.
> 
> How can I help her? How can lessen her fears and get her tounderstand the guilt can be worked through? Any thougts from yourself or Athena?


I am really not sure if guilt can be the actual reason for not trying , especially considering her past actions towards you . In fact most ww uses this as noble excuse to dump their partner after cheating on them . 


best of luck


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

bestplayer said:


> * "..... Everything he does annoys me. I guess I am stuck in avoidance. My husband just says that I hate him....."*
> 
> well I really dont understand this , you loved your OM but you can't really stand you H so much that he feels like you hate him . Why dont you just end your sufferings by simply getting rid of your H ?
> 
> ...


We've been married 10yrs...so it is more than just getting "rid" of one another or ending "suffering." We are in marital turmoil...and no, _neither_ of us "like" each other and what "we" have done. Yes, we _both_ killed our marriage. My husband "feels" that I hate him, while I don't. As I said, I am uncomfortable. We aren't connecting at all. We don't complement each other as a whole so it's a struggle. It's all an aftermath. 
As mentioned in an earlier posts, things do not look good for us.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

bestplayer said:


> I am really not sure if guilt can be the actual reason for not trying , especially considering her past actions towards you . In fact most ww uses this as noble excuse to dump their partner after cheating on them .
> 
> 
> best of luck


yes. she can feel guilt. and feel that she is undeserving you. she knows that you are a good man. and she sees your fight. maybe the guilt is many things. guilty for not loving you. guilty for the affair. it's too soon for her to know if she can get past it...but if the marriage recovers she will. She just can't see this far ahead yet. Understand, it's not her excuse to end your marriage.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> 8yearscheating - I can empathize with your situation: You are waiting patiently for her to find her footing. It's very noble and, on the surface, loving. I'd suggest you clarify your motivation to yourself, however. The risk is that by holding off on dealing with your own betrayal and pain, while you wait for her, the anger will build up and at some point it is going to come. You are in self-preservation mode, holding on to the last vestiges of your relationship. At some point the stress becomes too much. Are you waiting truly out of love, or because you fear a future alone?
> 
> Either way, take care of yourself. You and your needs are important, too.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Many women don't go looking for an affair. "Newness" is highschool. Believe me, affairs are much more complicated than that. There is usually an emotional void, neglect of sorts that isn't being met in the marriage. I can recall at one point saying how invisible and disrespected I felt...unappreciated and unloved. I would voice how angry I felt when he disregarded our arguments saying I take everything too personal. We never spent time together. Married couples can be poor communicators and poor receptors. At times a spouse may communicate unmet needs, but W or H fail to understand for whatever reason. With an affair, sometimes a relationship can plutonically build for years before turning emotional or physical...especially if AP has found someone with similarities...someone to confide in and lean on. 
Please take care of yourself. If you both love each other, you stand more of an amazing chance of rebuilding your marriage. I have read where it takes up to two years to get recovery into full swing...all is not forgotten but not as fresh. Many couselors will tell you to hang in their for at least a year before making any decisions. ((hugs))

And for the record, I wish my husband would try have as hard as you. I thought your link was very informative...and true. Keep trying.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I also disagree that it's BS. Speaking ONLY from my own personal experience, there were two kinds of issues in the marriage that made it vulnerable to an affair: 1) Some things that I could identify beforehand and did say out loud that were avoided, and 2) Some things that I did not consciously understand or verbalize, but that looking back on it now, I can say for sure "Yes that was part of it." Items in #1 for me were resentment about being treated as less important than the ex, my requests not only being ignored but doing exactly what I asked to NOT do, and a lot of feeling lonely and less important than a video game. Items in #2 for me were concerns about health and my age, not wanting sex to end in my life, not being able to conceive anymore--somewhat standard "mid-life" things that combined with someone making the effort to show some interest and turned into a powder keg. 

So this isn't blame talking but reality. Reality is that if I were still less important than the game, we'd be having some serious MUU negotiations and accountability and could well end up separated over it. If the ex was still more important than me, we'd be separated. And I'm not saying that as a threat or to control, but rather just as a statement of a boundary: when I marry someone I do expect 100% of affection AND LOYALTY just like I preach on the soapbox and recommend to people.  

HOWEVER, this does really touch on an important topic. Before everything ended, I already saw some of the changes in my hubby and already knew it wasn't a promise...but real. After it ended, we did discuss the things that contributed on his side and my side, and we actually made changes. If I hadn't seen the changes first or if I did see the changes being really MADE, I would not have had confidence in even trying. Thus, at least to my opinion (that I know of, there are no studies or scientific research to support this), the willingness to admit that BOTH were doing things that were "lacking" is a precursor to actually recovering. Yes, most marriages do start young and without bad intention gradually become "lacking" but more than half also end up in divorce. The goal here is to change that and save the marriage...and that starts by both spouses working on their part.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I have not read this whole thread but here is my question relating to the last few posts. 

So am I not completly crazy to remain and fight for this marriage especially as her friend since we were friends long before we were ever a couple? Crazy to be there for her but not pursuing her?

As painful as it is How would instant get out of the house and Divorce be better??? With kids invoved when I feel I still love her and I can recover. I don't think she knows how she feels she has stated she will not tell me her decision because she is to emotional. She has also left the possibility of us in the future as open ended and does not like the BIG D word. 
In a couple of weeks she has gone from rapidly withdrawing from any touch of mine to allowing a brief hand hold after conversation and me to stroke her hair when we were talking about her hair so does any of this mean anything?
She had the EA/PA duration 6-9 mos PA a few times only supposedly. OM ended it. The EA is the damaging part.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I wrote:



> The excuse that something was lacking in the marriage is a load of BS. The reality is that there are things lacking in EVERYONE'S marriage.


I still believe that to be true. I also want to clarify that I'm writing without judgement for the various wayward's. 

I find "it happens for a reason" kind of thinking a way of externalizing your power. Basically, things were bad, I was unhappy for x, y and z, so I had no choice but to cheat to prop up my self-esteem and to feel better.

It's not true. You had other choices - leave, be direct with your husbands about what was going on (ie. "I feel attracted to another man, I'm letting my boundaries slip, I'm considering an affair because I feel so lonely in our marriage), stop the behavior...to name a few.

Now, I know there are a lot of feelings that cloud our judgement, and that's part of why it all gets so messy. But I believe forums are a place of truth. And your feelings in the moment are not facts.

The facts are: The cheater felt bad due to some condition in the marriage. They chose to seek validation elsewhere. And the validation usually evolved over time, it was a slippery slope. The source of validation become an intoxicant. Which lead to continued lies and deception, as the cheater wanted to maintain the intoxicant AND keep stability. Finally after discovery, ambivalence to the betrayed spouse set in, because you just don't feel the love anymore.



> With an affair, sometimes a relationship can plutonically build for years before turning emotional or physical...especially if AP has found someone with similarities...someone to confide in and lean on.


This is an example of externalizing power. The implication is that it just happened. When the true thing is that you ALLOWED that relationship to grow to the point. "Confiding and leaning on" was totally an inappropriate situation to get in the first place.

Again, not writing it to blame you. I get that people are fallible and mess up and react to emotions in the moment. It happens all the time. I hope you've forgiven yourself because it's a terrible burden to carry. But my view is that unless wayward spouses are willing to accept responsibility and to learn how and why these things happened, then there is no real reconciliation.

And affaircare - I really value your advice and insight, but I disagree with you. You wrote:



> there were two kinds of issues in the marriage that made it vulnerable to an affair


The problem I have with this is that the marriage isn't a person. It doesn't make decisions. A marriage is just the name for a particular relationship between two people. But putting the issues on the marriage, instead of taking responsibility for the having the issues, you externalize it, and support the delusion that affairs happen for a reason. 

They do happen for a reason but the reason isn't the marriage. The reason is the unconscious seeking of relief from emotional pain. Not the marriage. Not your spouse. My belief is that recovery is in making the effort to live consciously in our lives and accept responsibility.

As for how this pertains to 8years: You can try all you want to help your WW feel supported, loved, and nurture her back into the marriage. It may work. I hope it does. But if you allow any version of "the marriage made me do it" to exist, you stray from the truth and hurt yourself in the long term. Because it lets her off the hook from real soul searching, and it puts you in the untenable position of feeling guilty and responsible for somehow having created the affair.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I only believe that I created fertile ground with the unresolved issues we had/have. I did not cause the affair. SHe has a tendency to shut down and run from arguments so that things never get resolved and fester. My mistake was not paying more attention and getting her to open up. I'm wokring on the love busters she wrote for me. Some of them I can't work on until we work together because they are partially her way of not interacting with me.

I'm trying and I'll do my best to be patient. 
Another side note, my IC ran the bipolar questiona t me today and based on my conservative answers, she has a full blow bipolar. I'll be talking to our doctor later this week and will get him to work on it.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

BTW 8years - I really respect you for trying so hard. Don't let me discourage you. My wife had a similar depression that really tormented her for years. When people are hurting it's natural for them to seek out relief. It could be that the OM provided the good feeling she used to manage her depression.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow, 8 years and seeking your posts fit into my life. My w has been on antidepressants in the past and would avoid conflict. Just what does this future hold


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Affaircare said:


> Yes, most marriages do start young and without bad intention gradually become "lacking" but more than half also end up in divorce. The goal here is to change that and save the marriage...and that starts by both spouses working on their part.


AC... lots of laughs bc my husband went another 10 days without having sex with me (even though he agreed to every other day in our plan to move forward)... his response when I reminded him (bc he told me to remind him if he forgot... I let it go as long as I could to see how long he would go without remembering) "I had no bad intentions, I hadnt really thought about when the last time we had sex was." Seriously? Such difficulty in feeling loved when your spouse unintentionally doesnt remember a promise, and unintentionally hurts you.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief said:


> Wow, 8 years and seeking your posts fit into my life. My w has been on antidepressants in the past and would avoid conflict. Just what does this future hold


Well, it's a wild ride, I can tell you that!

I think, realistically, the best advice I've gotten, which when I've put it in place has most helped me, is this:

1. Remove attachment to outcome. Marital problems and infidelity hurt most because we desperately want our wives to come back to us, and to restore the marriage. Since we want that so badly, we do all this crazy stuff to try and manipulate the situation into getting what we want. If you can remove attachment to outcome, it allows you to start making informed decisions. Your decision could be to stay in the relationship and try to help your WW. Or it could be to go. But if you remove outcome thinking, you stop making choices based on what you get out of it. You make them based on what is the right thing according to your particular values.

2. Make your wife the icing on your cake, NOT the cake. By creating a life that includes exercise, male friends, and pursuit of your passions, you become a whole person that isn't defined by the woman in your life. If you build your life around your women it creates a bunch of stress/obligation in her, and sets you up for unhappiness.

Both these ideas come from Dr Robert Glover, who wrote No More Mr Nice Guy. He may be a good source of ideas for you too.

No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Seeking, Thanks will work towards that already set it in my head to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. In the meantime keeping the children happy secure and healthy. I will check out the book, my library is growing.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

In my case, I have a strong belief in my vows. In sickness and in health. Forsaking all others also meant a lot to me. I've travelled a lot in our 26 years of marriage and have NEVER once been unfaithful in spite of some real opportunities. I had two young Chinese translators that did almost everything to try and entice me - together! My wife was shocked when I told her how proud of her I was and how I told my work associates in multiple countries how she was my rock and did wonderful with our kids. She also knew how painful it was for me to apart from her and our kids. Now she blames me for putting my job first. I put my family first and did my best to provide for them. Now I'm sure it was when I was travelling that she was out with OM. What a fool I was.

Now I do my best to save this marriage because I still love her and want both of us to be happy. I have no attachment to the outcome - I can't because there isn't even one ray hope yet. Her answer when I asked tonight if anything I was doing was having any effect on how she feels about me was - I'm not sure because I'm not sure how I feel. It reminds me way too much of the the first time she went into a deep depression. I could never leave the one love when she is so not her usual self. She couldn't even cry at my daughters wedding a few months ago - before D Day. I did.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 yrs I am only about IDK 6-8 wks past the bomb drop I stopped recounting. We have 4 children 11 and under I know that they would be wrecked if Mom moved out and thats the way it would be. I too meant it when I said my vows. What makes it worse in my mind is that before we were ever a couple we were there for each other as friends. Was our marriage perfect no but the time frame this supposedly started was the one time I was regularly out of town daily. I am usually in town. The overall hindsight is killer just trying to move foward and i want a crystal ball. Overall emotionall detatchment must be a defense mechanism. I am trying to quickly detatch from outcome and begin to function as if I were parenting alone. It is not what I want for myself my children but I cannot change her heart and emotions and she did what she did without keeping me involved in her plan, the biggest decision of the family plan she made on her own!! So how do you fix it when the offending spouse is the one who is still stuck and so emotionally messed up they are barely the person you knew 9 months ago.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief - that sucks. I was you 3 years ago. Just hang in there and try not to go too crazy as the mess unfolds. It is going to take A LOT of time for things to end up. Remember you don't have nearly as much power of controlling the outcome as you think. I remember feeling if I could just say the right words in the right way, I could somehow get her to understand. I just doesn't work that way.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Seeking, I dove into all this info the more I learne the easier for me to cope. I agree i pretty much have concluded I have next to no power in the final result i will give it my all but i am backed off not talking about the R acting as a friend and with that she has a few times opened up a little. Where we end up who knows. My greatest concern is for my kids. Answer only if you want ..........How did things turn out for you? Thanks for the input it is good to not feel alone. If my wife would find something like this instead of internalizing she might progress but she has to do it on her own + 1 councillor.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief, for me it worked out in the end. But it took 3 years, and two separations to get here. My wife was similar in some ways - she felt ambivalent to me, wasn't attracted to me anymore, fixated on another man for about a year, loved me but wasn't in love with me, avoided intimacy, etc... still won't go on forums like this. 

She came around after I had moved on with my life. I think it was timing and that I'd stopped being so invested in the relationship that made this last reconciliation possible.

Of course, there are other negative stories too. You should read this thread, it documents a very similar story to yours and 8years, with a much different outcome:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/8671-need-advice-perspective.html


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Hoping an praying she will find her way back.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Seeking, 3 years huh........what a dent that would put in the kids lives. All because she couldn't have a straight foward conversation with me when things got rough I guess I will deal with the next couple of months first. My gut feeling is not good. They made contact today via one text message don't like that but, seeing how the end of an affair is also viewed as grieving. And it is sensitive R material. I am now debating Should i leave alone the fact of knowing one text message went between them so as to not reveal my source? And at a later date ask the question again about any contact? If I keep it to myself I can continue to monitor the situation. Sorry kind of off topic.
I too am hoping and praying that her time alone does her some good. And in the meantime AARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
These forums are a sanity saver!!!!!
Taking care of my kids


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

My advice is keep it to yourself. Don't reveal your sources. You'll be tempted but don't do it. This will all pass at some point - either in reconciliation or in divorce. But above all protect yourself.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks that was kind of my plan at the least it will be an honesty check if we are talking and ask the blanket question of have they had any contact in any form. That cell spyware is so interesting.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I asked tonight why she was so distant and couldn't even stand to do a dinner and a movie with me. She told me she just can't be comfortable with me or near me. She then added she needs to figure out why. No more talk of moving out. Her sister told me the OM is not in the picture. Some positive news.

For the other ww, she says the not being comfortable is because I know about the affair. Is this the fog? I'l just keep waiting to see if she works it out. It is so strange to me to be the one she can't be near me when it wasn't me who had the affair. 

For AffairCare - when I read her lovebusters again today, one of he big issues was privacy and me reading her deleted sexting and the number of texting messages from the bill to reveal to her I knew about the affair. Is that the fog again? I keep thinking what woudl she have done if she were in my situation? Was I supposed to stay blind? In my mind, there is no reason for this type of privacy in marriage. She knows all my passwords and accounts. Most of the other items relate to her inability to challenge me or talk things through. Like her mother, she runs from conflict and lets her feeling fester instead of talking through them at the time or later when I had cooled off. She also cited privacy for going out with friends. I'm relatively certain some of the time with "friends" was with the OM. Is the the kind of negative black brush for everyhting about me you mentioned I should expect right now?

Going to the range tomorrow to waste some targets. I'll be fantasizing it's the OM. Burn off some frustration.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

Recall one of my posts from above. I stated " _I don't like spending time with him because I am uncomfortable and I don't know where we are or where we are going._"

Very normal. And yes...very uncomfortable. Matter of a fact I was thinking of this today...how he knows everything...from all of the snooping and spyware...chitchats with other people. It makes me terribly uncomfortable to know that he knows about OM and details. Another reason, I just don't think I can get past the affair and move ahead in our marriage.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Can you explain why snowstorm? Is it shame or guilt? If your H was trying hard to work on his own issues with you and wanted to work it out, would that make you feel different? What would your feelings be towards me if I were your H. You have seen how hard I'm trying. Would all of that make it worse? Are your feelings one of protection for the OM? The where you would be going in my case would be to try and work through it and make the marriage better. I'm not looking for sex, just more than being cordial. Being able to start talking through it even if it's only with a marriage counselor. How can you even begin to try? What do you need to try? If you were my wife, what would you be feeling about how I feel? Why would that make you feel you could not continue in the marriage- is that run away response? Are you avoiiding the work that would necessary? Is your H willing to try? I hope I'm not probing too much.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Another short night of sleep. The affair and the elements of it keep rolling around in my head. She tells me she won't tell me more. All I want to know is the when, where, and how long it went on. More so I cna watch and make sure similar things don't happen again. Am I wrong to want to know and am I better off not knowing?

To the WW, would you do some sleuthing if you suspected your H?


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Another short night of sleep. The affair and the elements of it keep rolling around in my head. She tells me she won't tell me more. All I want to know is the when, where, and how long it went on. More so I cna watch and make sure similar things don't happen again. Am I wrong to want to know and am I better off not knowing?
> 
> To the WW, would you do some sleuthing if you suspected your H?


Are you financially depending on your wife & the house you both have is under her name?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## peacefully (Nov 13, 2009)

You are better off not knowing and you are better off moving on. 

I know that you don't want to hear this, however it's true.

The ones who have "moved on" on this forum are either many years out, or still dealing with the aftermath of the affairs- and they are giving advice although they are still suffering. I have moved on after my husband cheated, and I am a better, happier person for it. It took me a few years, but I am there. 

Marriage is not a competition, it's not a job or a sport. It is a dynamic relationship. It changes. If your spouse cheats on you, you need to recognize that it may be because they are are a damaged person. You might be able to live with that, and heck- you might even like that about them- because it makes you feel better than them... I know that- my ex had a world of problems and it was "awful" for me, but at least I was "better" and "right" most of the time...

You are best to walk away. 
If you do, then either you will find a better life, of you will gain some strength to be able to enter back into the battle, and deal with the betrayal with some detachment.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

The house is in both out names. She works full time and has her own pension. If we seperate, we have agreed 50/50 on the house and contents. The rest goes with our own. We will use the same lawyer if possible.

Why do you ask Mslonely?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Peacefully, if it comes to that I will. It's not what I want. I will try and work through this if she decides she can.

Other WW - can you answer my questions? Ms Lonely and Athena?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 years ....feeling your pain here no idea what the future holds here. I think what you need to know depends on you. I needed the who for closure and time frame. Some other questions I had answered as well not by my spouse but by the OM who couldn't shut his mouth one day. Unfornately he was not a stranger. i have begun to look at the whole life picture to see how it played into this set of circumstances that ended up in an EA/PA and some of it sadly plays right into the "text books" the question is can she recover and does she want to and like all your questions, Is it shame guilt the councillor says she needs a time to grieve. So I am trying to detatch my lover side and keep the friend alive. But I still Love her. Hate this situation. We are all human mistakes are inevitable it is how we overcome them. Only time will tell. Hang in there I will be hanging in too.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks disbelief and I'll keep posting to let you know what I find works and what doesn't.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I have found sanity in a notebook putting thoughts to paper gets them out of your head.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

disbelief said:


> So I am trying to detatch my lover side and keep the friend alive.


That's a fabulous why of looking at it Disbelief.

I wish you all the best.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

One more for th WWs. If your h started going out bar hopping with single friends, how would you feel about it? What if he didn't always come home at night? I won't be doing anything, just planting a seed of doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Easier said than done, she is away to sort things out i am off for the kids can't shut the brain off I just want to call or text her but know It is best I do not. Oh yeah thats where the notebook helps.


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## sophiasfriend (Oct 22, 2010)

athena said:


> Sophiasfriend - I am particularly interested in how you knew you wanted to fix your marriage. I am so hung up on my OM that spending any "quality time" with my husband is so unappealing right now. Did you just know right after D-day or did you work to get it to that point?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Athena.. I knew right away, and it become more and more clear that I want to save my marriage with every day that passes. As my mind clears and I stop seeing the OM through the lens of "no one understands me like he does" I know for sure that enduring, stable, reliable love (like I had and hope to reaffirm with my husband) is MUCH more satisfying than fleeting, superficial, "fantasy" love.


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## sophiasfriend (Oct 22, 2010)

Seeker said:


> I still have feelings for the OM & have been in contact with him on & off. My husband made the mistake of quoting something he'd read about my feeling "emotionally uncomfortable" after I broke it off with the OM.
> 
> Seeker...you haven't really broken it off with the OM if you're still in contact with him at all. You might want to start there. I don't think we can begin to reestablish intimacy and love with our husbands if we're still hanging on to even a scrap of the OM. Good luck


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## sophiasfriend (Oct 22, 2010)

snowstorm said:


> In response to several previous posts that seem to be missing the point:
> You are aware the affair has happened. You nor she can change it. You are in affair fallout. Yes, you can hate her, not trust her, and divorce her. But you don't want to. You want to move forward...not wallow in "what kind" of person she is to do this.
> 
> I honestly believe the OM is gone.
> ...


:smthumbup: Very well put from the unfaithful spouse's POV.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Questions in light of those last couple of posts. My wife's affair OM ended it about a month ago if she maintains need for seperation do I fighg igt? Especially with 4 kids 11 and under and holidays coming we are cordial towards each other
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly (Sep 21, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> The house is in both out names. She works full time and has her own pension. If we seperate, we have agreed 50/50 on the house and contents. The rest goes with our own. We will use the same lawyer if possible.


If the house was purchased under the wife's name, even though the husband did pay for most mortgages, still, he can't ask her to move out since it's her house.

My oldest brother has this problem, so he can't get divorced or he would have nothing. So he has tried his best to survive with his wife for 20 years, and still surviving. 

So when my brother has marriage problems, he has no choices but to stay quiet & submissive to his wife - that could be a reason that some husbands refuse to split because they put everything, car, house, business under the wife's names, if they get divorced, they will have nothing left in the bank.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

For those woman who have been there here is a brief: our marriage was good but we had been arguing OM had been arguing with his spouse they found common ground talking about i it grew turned into EA/PA 3-9month PA limited EA more damaging. He was suppossed to make final call for closure on the situation it appears that happened in the last couple days. We have been seperated in our own house and she is away this week for space. How can I even work with this when she gets home. She is distant. Where do I set the limit on giving space and time how long do you tolerate this Limbo.
I think she still is set on moving out even with kids involved. My gut feeling says she is done I think we need to have a R talk we have been avoiding it for about 2 weeks. The last 2 weeks we started to communicate better and she allowed a friendly touch I have done 180's and being her friend. Need input. 
Shout out......Hows it going 8 yrs??


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> The house is in both out names. She works full time and has her own pension. If we seperate, we have agreed 50/50 on the house and contents. The rest goes with our own. We will use the same lawyer if possible.
> 
> Why do you ask Mslonely?


8years, please do not make the same mistake as I made, (waiting for my ex to change her mind). Who knows how long it will take, are you willing to wait months or even years? I waited and waited only to find out she dumped one OM and hooked up with another, in other words i wasted my life and time. I regret the amount of time I wasted waiting for her to "come around"! 

Also do not fall for the "use the same lawyer" or "i will be fair" type thing when it comes to divorce. Divorce will turn what you thought was a sweet person into the most evil gold digger. You will see a side of her that you have NEVER seen before. 

My advice to you is start seriously talking to an attorney (not that you have to actually file anything) he/she will help guide you when your emotions are too wrapped up in your W.

Best of luck


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Do I even give her a chance to resolve her emotions I have tabs on OM as well with his Spouse? 4kids involved it has not been uncivil yet only about 6 weeks since bomb drop. Or lawyer to prepare for the worst?


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Do I even give her a chance to resolve her emotions I have tabs on OM as well with his Spouse? 4kids involved it has not been uncivil yet only about 6 weeks since bomb drop. Or lawyer to prepare for the worst?


If you keep tolerating her & giving her space, it would show her you're weak. 

I really believe when women decide to leave a relationship, she's cruel & she won't look back on you. The gold digger side is true & no news.

However, maybe there's still hope that she would rekindle with you. Keep working on it & see what happens.

If she decides to leave, it's not your fault in front of your kids since you have done your best to rekindle. You kids would know it.


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

MsLonely said:


> If you keep tolerating her & giving her space, it would show her you're weak.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> totally agree!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I told her to take the 4-5 days away. I also have already stated some of my limits. She has left repairing us open ended maybe that is the security blanket. She has admitted she would be the one to move I am home more with the kids. I also do not want to drop this on the kids rt at the Holidays. Just confirmed that the closure conversation took place details unknown. So I imagine the whole resentment anger thing starts over. I have been 180ing to show I am not weak. This is the 1 mistake she has made in our relationship a huge one. Everything else was normal petty everyday stuff. Do actions really speak louder than words?

My goal at this point is to save the marriage however detatching is progressing.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

disbelief said:


> I told her to take the 4-5 days away. I also have already stated some of my limits. She has left repairing us open ended maybe that is the security blanket. She has admitted she would be the one to move I am home more with the kids. I also do not want to drop this on the kids rt at the Holidays. Just confirmed that the closure conversation took place details unknown. So I imagine the whole resentment anger thing starts over. I have been 180ing to show I am not weak. This is the 1 mistake she has made in our relationship a huge one. Everything else was normal petty everyday stuff. Do actions really speak louder than words?
> 
> My goal at this point is to save the marriage however detatching is progressing.


She talked to the OM or what do you mean closure? Are you there for participating in the conversation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

She really wants to move out for the OM? How can she do this to the kids?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> He was suppossed to make final call for closure on the situation it appears that happened in the last couple days. We have been separated in our own house and she is away this week for space. How can I even work with this when she gets home. She is distant. Where do I set the limit on giving space and time how long do you tolerate this Limbo.


A few things: 

1. There is never 'closure'. The one last "talk" always leads to one more "talk" and one more f*ck for old times sake. It's a false premise. No contact is no contact. If there is contact, the affair is active. You need to decide if you can accept being in the same house with her while she is active in her affair.

Reconciliation looks like this:
- No contact
- Full disclosure of what has happened
- Voluntary transparency - passwords, emails, texts, etc.
- Actions on her part to rebuild trust, love and connection

2. 180 and being friends are incompatible. A 180 is a way for YOU to take back some of your power. It is a way for YOU to get a life, independent of her. It's not done to manipulate her, make her jealous, or as a negotiating ploy. If you are doing it to control her, that is weakness. 180 is how you develop a life independent of her - male friends, exercise, pursuit of your passions. THAT is the tonic that will help you feel better. 

2B. You aren't her friend, you are her husband. They are different things. Remove the concept of friends from your mind. The best line on this is from the movie Hotel Chevalier

Ex-girlfriend: Whatever happens in the end, I don't wanna lose you as my friend. 
Jack: I promise, I will never be your friend. No matter what. Ever. 

That's the mindset I'd encourage you to get.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

The OM made contact for the closure I know of it through his spouse and the phone bill and he knows I check so if he was going to hide it he would have done better. I will definitly keep your point of view in mind difficult because we were friends first. There maybe nothing left to salvage I don't know. I told her go away for a few days she did OM is closer by than she is. 
My WAW wants to continue to bottle it all up she has told some of what happened but very little I am able to find out other ways. She is something about the whole thing hurt all around I think ....dumped by OM. Wrecked marriage with faithful more than supportive spouse. How much does raised in strong christian faith affect the mentality.
I do not know the conversation that occurred yet it supposedly was we r not to talk again 40 minutes worth.so with all this being said wanting to save the marriage to those ladies who have been the cheating spouse do I be the nice friend for a while or do I have a relationship conversation when the kids are at school. And give the chance for her to reveal the conversation. She withdraws at conflict.

I believe I could make the same mistake and what treatment would I want from my best friend. I still have a lifettime of parenting with her..............arrrggghh!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

MsLonely said:


> She really wants to move out for the OM? How can she do this to the kids?!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She does not want to move out withOM he has decided not to leave his family however this definitly tapped her head the alien is in not my wife she infatuated on him then got dumped and did all that blaming on me she wants what is best for kids oooo maybe they should have thought of that!!!!! Earlier R conversations have involed seperation. And maybe being able to work it out. She has taken no real action._ IDK
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Have any of the women who had the affair if after realizing it is over .......have a change of mindset and decide to work on marriage? Fishing for thoughts ..... not trying to hijack the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief - You need to try to calm down. I know how hard it is and how much your head is spinning right now. I've been there. It is truly awful.

You can't think your way out of this problem right now. You are powerless in this moment to change anything but yourself. Please this article on a 180:

Marriage Builders® Discussion Forums: Divorce busting 180 degree list


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

disbelief - What you want to do is up to you. A number of people on this forum suggested the same things I see above. My decision was to try and work it out knowing that it would be very long hard road. My wife has not decided what she wants to do so all I can do is wait. IN the interim, I am trying to change the things I know created fertile ground for the affair in our marriage. I managed to get her to fill out the love busters questionaire. If you read the previous posts in this thread, Affair care reminded me that her present state of mind would cause to paint a pretty bleak picture but that there would some insights to be gained. Some of her items were very obvioulsy issues that she and I neeeded to deal with together. Some were me. I am changing the behaviours and things that were me. It has some effect thought not much. She is still unable to permit me to even touch her hand or hug her. She says she is not comfortable. So I am giving her all the space I can and not pressuring her to talk. Intially she was ready to move into an apartment until we discussed the cost and what it would mean for extras like my youngest daughters school functions and trips. My youngest is 15 and my other two are adults. I did insist NC on the OM and that has happened as well as I can determine. I do monitor her phone records and check the numbers. She did go and buy another phone. I checked it a week ago and it hasn't been used. She says she will get rid of it next week. I obviously can't explain details of how I do these things in case she happens to be watching this forum.

So my suggestion to you is for YOU to decide what you want - work through it or be done. In my case there are over 25 years of marriage and a majority of it was good and loving on her part. You also need to consider if your wife has any long term depression issues. Make your decision based on your circumstances.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Ok WW snowstorm, athena and Mslonely- did you see my questions around post93?


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

8years that's good advice. You seem much more in control of yourself now. Great to see!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> 8years that's good advice. You seem much more in control of yourself now. Great to see!


Thank you all a little wound up today. Got a negative response from her sibling about the possibility of saving the marriage. My wife sounds happy on the phone today quick to get off though sad she lied about phone usage.well it would be a lie of omission no better.
I think her goal is to get out. I don't know wether or not to initiate a conversation monday. Or try the 7 step or divorce busting strategies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey disbelief, 

Will you do us a favor? Will you please start your own thread so we can talk to 8yearscheating about his situation on this thread, and talk to you about your situation on your thread? You can just copy/paste some posts from here onto the new thread...it's just a way for you to get your own replies and help and stuff.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

sorry willl do


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Cool--look forward to seeing your thread!


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Well stumbled over something. Think she has another e-mail address. 

If this was how she was staying in touch with OM...I'm not sure I can trust her on anything anymore.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Hang in there


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

RWB said:


> Secret Emails is par for the affair. I searched my wife's work email and found that that the admin saved *.pst archive files every 3 months or so. She said she had stopped contact but the archives showed she was still talking and planning their next meeting a year after she said she was through (finished) with him. Talk is talk, emails are permanent. Get a Key-Logger installed now.
> 
> I still feel like a fool for not getting "informed" by just simply looking at the records that were staring at me. Phone Call records, Email Traffic, Cell Text Messages... you can sit on your butt and see the truth.


any software suggestions for cell phones........


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

In fact, yes! Here are a few ideas: 

For an Android: Cheating Spouse? There's an App for That

For a SmartPhone: How to Track a Smartphone Without Them Knowing

I don't have an app for an iPhone yet but I'm looking!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Affaircare said:


> In fact, yes! Here are a few ideas:
> 
> For an Android: Cheating Spouse? There's an App for That
> 
> ...


Can't vouch for it, but worth a look.

iPhone Spy Software


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> A few things:
> 
> 1. There is never 'closure'. The one last "talk" always leads to one more "talk" and one more f*ck for old times sake. It's a false premise. No contact is no contact. If there is contact, the affair is active. You need to decide if you can accept being in the same house with her while she is active in her affair.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with some of this.* Yes, there can be a closure.* In my situation, xMM wrote a closure "note" to me with BS hovering over his shoulder telling him what to write. And it was obvious. It wasn't his "language" at all. This was *"her"* closure. It was sudden and out of the blue.
I called him two days later, because I felt I deserved more than this from him...I wanted an *"our"* closure and that is what I received. We discussed what had happened and where things were going. We discussed the past. We said our very hard "forever" goodbyes. 
I then wrote a letter from my point of view and mailed it. It was *"my"* own closure. A release I guess. I called him once again, just to say that something was being mailed his way. A 4 second conversation. I told him that I swore I would never bother him again. And that was that. I assume that the letter hit him hard. His wife emailed the day that he should have received it with a question regarding our affair. I didn't respond. Closure was done. She wanted to rebuild their marriage. So be it. I agreed to leave them alone. We haven't spoken in 6mos. 

You _*are*_ your wife's friend. You are her best friend. And you are her husband. Never forget that.

Trying to save your marriage is not about power. 180 is not about getting back anyone's power. I think power was sort of a wrong choice of words. I do agree with the posters comment that 180 is you going on with your life while she gets hers together. It's giving her space. It's offering you independence. To think with a clear head.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Can you explain why snowstorm? Is it shame or guilt? If your H was trying hard to work on his own issues with you and wanted to work it out, would that make you feel different? What would your feelings be towards me if I were your H. You have seen how hard I'm trying. Would all of that make it worse? Are your feelings one of protection for the OM? The where you would be going in my case would be to try and work through it and make the marriage better. I'm not looking for sex, just more than being cordial. Being able to start talking through it even if it's only with a marriage counselor. How can you even begin to try? What do you need to try? If you were my wife, what would you be feeling about how I feel? Why would that make you feel you could not continue in the marriage- is that run away response? Are you avoiiding the work that would necessary? Is your H willing to try? I hope I'm not probing too much.


No feel free to ask...I am guest on your thread remember? I am just a snail at getting back. 
First off, no way are my feelings protection for the OM. He is gone. 
Your wife and I share similarities...but I will admit, I was in love with xMM. And apart of me still is. See, my marriage has been a slow death over the course...but my affair ended in a blink. I had time to accept my marriage as a failure. 

I feel more resentment than anything right now. I am mad. Mad at me. Because this wasn't how my life was suppose to be. I don't do things like this. I am better than this. I'm angry at him. For always fighting me and not listening or trying. For publically telling everyone...I am branded. For words he can't take back. Just so much. The shame has _*always*_ been their 8yrs. The guilt is just _beginning_ to surface after 6mos now. And it is wrapped in so many things like a failed marriage. Being a mom that has commited adultery. More guilt too for BS. I even feel guilty for allowing xMM to worm his way into my life. For believing in him. I feel guilty for not loving my husband like I should...for loving xMM more. _*And I just can't help it.*_ None of it. No magic wand. And if I cheated, do I really love my spouse to have done this?

If I were your wife, I would want a passive approach. Eye contact. I love you's. Friendship. Heartfelt notes. And some space. To figure out if I still love you. And some space to grieve. Space to get myself back on track...to find happiness within me. Encourage her to spend time with people. And MC or IC is a must. If anything, you go.

I just don't know. 8yrs. She has to decide whether her love is there. And it's going to take your patience. And your heart may get broken. Just go about your life while she is trying to get hers back. All the while, letting her know you haven't deserted her...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So Snowstorm, Is it that really in the end there is no hard and fast answer because we are all different and personalities react differently.....so therefore if one truly knows their spouse and they begin to behave appropriatley (the alien departing) follow all of these rules as a guide and balance them as needed while remembering not to loose oneself in the process? Keeping in mind this event has changed their mindset we should be guarded until trust is well reestablished, seeking transparency and a "new" marriage to prevent a recurrence and hope for the best. 180's that benefit me and my kids in the end entice my spouse. Being prepared for the worst hoping for the best I will give it my all to at least know I did all I could to fix this. And in the end if it does not work out I will find myself an improved person to move foward with life.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> One more for th WWs. If your h started going out bar hopping with single friends, how would you feel about it? What if he didn't always come home at night? I won't be doing anything, just planting a seed of doubt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



He did. Time or two he didn't get in until 5a.m. 

Honestly, I wasn't jealous. I was glad he was gone and I had my space. 

She has disconnected from you 8yrs. It doesn't help. It may even justify how down she feels about your marriage. 

Continue to live the straight and narrow...with occasional fun  Just go do things...get involved with others or a hobby.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

disbelief said:


> So Snowstorm, Is it that really in the end there is no hard and fast answer because we are all different and personalities react differently.....so therefore if one truly knows their spouse and they begin to behave appropriatley (the alien departing) follow all of these rules as a guide and balance them as needed while remembering not to loose oneself in the process? Keeping in mind this event has changed their mindset we should be guarded until trust is well reestablished, seeking transparency and a "new" marriage to prevent a recurrence and hope for the best. 180's that benefit me and my kids in the end entice my spouse. Being prepared for the worst hoping for the best I will give it my all to at least know I did all I could to fix this. And in the end if it does not work out I will find myself an improved person to move foward with life.


_So Snowstorm, Is it that really in the end there is no hard and fast answer because we are all different and personalities react differently.....so therefore if one truly knows their spouse and they begin to behave appropriatley (the alien departing) follow all of these rules as a guide and balance them as needed while remembering not to loose oneself in the process?_

*My apologies if off base, I haven't read through all of your posts...thread has gotten so lengthy.

**No, in the end it is about absolute love. Yes, all marriages are unique because of differences and reactions. hmm. It is so much more than behaving appropriately though. Behavior seems so wavingly. It is a change. A life change. And yes you stand to loose yourself...but a better you must come out of it. One has to decide what is the "better you." Is the better you what your spouse wants? Or do you think you are the cats meow already. 

Big flag in my marriage was when I saw who I had become. I had changed...to fit his mold. I was tied to an anchor. I was unhappy. I no longer knew me. Loved ones wondered what happened to that affectionate, fun loving, outgoing woman? She had so many friends! Where's her smile? My dad's comment still resonates with me "I just want you to joke again, like you used too." Broke my heart. My mom says "You don't hug anymore..." Then, I became aware of my very young daughter. And her lack of love being displayed. Afterall, her mom and dad are like robots. THAT is when I knew my marriage wasn't right.

So follow the rules. Change. It's permanent. Trust is tricky. That is something only you can work out in your mind, your heart with the help of your spouse. If you treat her like an excon, she will flee your marriage. Checking up on her is for your benefit only. If she is remorseful, than she won't cheat. Bottom line. How do you know if she isn't cheating? You won't. But you have to decide if you can get past the betrayal disbelief. It may take years. It may not. 
180 is not used to entice. It is used for YOU. Whether you go 180 isn't going to mean a hill of beans to her really. But it establishes space. Distance. To regroup. She isn't going to fall into a mad jealous rage that you are using this tool. IMO.*

_Being prepared for the worst hoping for the best I will give it my all to at least know I did all I could to fix this. And in the end if it does not work out I will find myself an improved person to move foward with life_ *Bingo.*
*
You part is decide if you love her enough to live with what has happened.Best to you...and most of all peace.*


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I was wrong about the email - none came back as deliverable.

Last night she said she loved me for the first time 6 weeks or more and then told me she wanted to put our marriage back together. She also said she still needed to sort her herself out.

WOHOOOOOOO!!! The patience and backing off have given her time to think and find the love she once felt for me. I know she hasn't contacted OM. We have a chance and I will do everything in my power to change the things that made fertile ground for the OM. I stopped in church this morning just to thank god for helping her to find her love me again. I'm not a religous person, but my prayers have been answered. It's up to me now to make good on my promises. That I can handle. I have hope. I spent the morning and most of the way home crying tears of relief and joy.

Thank you everyone for your support and help. I'll continue to update on the progress.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm so happy to hear that. Keep on your path. Good luck.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

good to hear maybe I can turn mine around in time too.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

disbelief. it was very hard for me to back off completely. No attempts at touching or holding hands. I told her she controlled the pace and if and when she felt ready. she controlled the pace entirely. I knew when she put her arm around me and gave he held tight hug last night, she had turned the corner and decided to try. It was also very hard to not pressure her with questions or trying to talk things out. I felt very much like a stranger in my own house. If I hadn't done that, I'm sure she would have moved out. I did those things at her request. I also did not pressure her for details. With the shock of the discovery, both of us were very much on edge. I just kept telling her I loved her and if and when she decided to try, I would be waiting. It seems so unfair to give her the space when I was one with major hole in my heart. I just kept telling myself it was my only chance. I also printed out the lovebusters questionaire and asked her to fill it out. WHile some what she wrote needed both us to work through, the items that me and my behaviour, I set out to start changing immediately.

Like I told you previously, everyones situation is different and only you can decide what you want to do. She did cut off contact with he other man, but not until after lying to me about cutting it off and then continuing to contact him. Eventually she cut it off.

I know it's real hard to continue without some hope or sign that she wants to work it out. I many a sleepless night and a lot of emotions that I had to keep to myself. Only you know how bad you want her back and what you can tolerate. Just keep trying. It worked for me. We have along road ahead of us. I've assured her I will not attack or try to punish her for what has happened. That most assuredly will drive her away.

Good luck to you.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 yrs Thanks today was lousy, I have a new thread going. I was in full back off and she asked me to look at our budget she was working on which was split in order for her to move out. It sent me emotional and I said fine if you are that done go now. I later apologized but she says she is at a point where she needs to be seperate. But her moving out would be after the holidays. SO............ I don't know. She has let through tiny bits of remorse. i forget things she can't forget anything. I have the divorce busting book to read and everyone on this forum helps out at the moment I am ready to throw in the towel. I am happy to hear good news on your front even though you have more to deal with. Thanks for the words.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

My WW was the same point about moving out. I told her it meant a severe tightening of our budget and the elimination of any "extras" for the kids. On top of that, I told her our mortgage was a life time commitment and if she expected to 50% of the proceeds, shee had to keep up 1/2 of all of the expenses like utilities and up keep as well as 1/2 the mortgage on her salary, if not we would deduct that amount from her proceeds. SHe makes a little over 1/2 what I make so it would have been REAL tight for her. She sqawked about it, but I told her I wasn't going to subsidize her affair. We would also set up different bank accounts and credit cards and she would pay me the expenses. There would be no "trust" that she wasn't using our joint funds to be with him. I kept telling her I didn't want to jump into decisions and that we would postpone any talk of moving out for at least 2-3 months. In terms of a D, I told her i wouldn't discuss it for 6 months to year. I also told her the chances of us getting back together were much lower statistically if she moved out. Eventually that talk stopped. but it was only because I had the strength to walk out of the room instead of pushing her to talk.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

snowstorm said:


> I disagree. Many women don't go looking for an affair. "Newness" is highschool. Believe me, affairs are much more complicated than that. There is usually an emotional void, neglect of sorts that isn't being met in the marriage. I can recall at one point saying how invisible and disrespected I felt...unappreciated and unloved. I would voice how angry I felt when he disregarded our arguments saying I take everything too personal. We never spent time together. Married couples can be poor communicators and poor receptors. At times a spouse may communicate unmet needs, but W or H fail to understand for whatever reason. With an affair, sometimes a relationship can plutonically build for years before turning emotional or physical...especially if AP has found someone with similarities...someone to confide in and lean on.
> Please take care of yourself. If you both love each other, you stand more of an amazing chance of rebuilding your marriage. I have read where it takes up to two years to get recovery into full swing...all is not forgotten but not as fresh. Many couselors will tell you to hang in their for at least a year before making any decisions. ((hugs))
> 
> And for the record, I wish my husband would try have as hard as you. I thought your link was very informative...and true. Keep trying.


It is still a rational choice to cheat no matter how bad your view of your marriage is.

Look at how many reasons you give, you have them all stacked up.

From your perspective you made an objective and rational choice to cheat. It is the type of person you are. Not the type of person your husband is that motivated you to cheat.

If you say "somebody else made me do it" we could all use that excuse for whatever we want to do in life!

I'm in front of a judge because I've stolen something and I say "Somebody else made me do it!". I beat my wife and I say "She made me do it!". I hope you get my point.

For goodness sake be an Adult and accept responsibility for your own values and beliefs and your own behaviour that results from them.

Bob


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

AFEH said:


> It is still a rational choice to cheat no matter how bad your view of your marriage is. Look at how many reasons you give, you have them all stacked up.
> 
> From your perspective you made an objective and rational choice to cheat. It is the type of person you are. Not the type of person your husband is that motivated you to cheat.
> 
> ...


*Bob, in the midst of a failed marriage one is NOT thinking rational*. Matter of a fact, all I can recall thinking is why can't my husband just love me...why am I invisibile when I try so hard. 

I don't recall saying that I "blamed" him for the affair. But the poster is asking "WW" about _their_ _feelings._ And my reply is describing what led up to me making the decision "I" made. And I will continue to say that yes, my failed marriage( _ my husband as well as myself_), led me to make a poor decision. The majority of affairs are not black and white as I have said. 

My husband understands why I did what I did. He sees the faults of our marriage NOW. Does he agree that it was right? NO! And yes, my poor decision was based on the type of person he is. And I am. It's has always been like pounding a square peg into a circle. 

So no, I do not believe the majority of affairs on behalf of women are spawned from peachy keen marriages. Nor did I just wake up morning and decide I would cheat on him. Marriages aren't perfect. People aren't perfect. If I could change what I did, yes I would. And I have said that.


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I was wrong about the email - none came back as deliverable.
> 
> Last night she said she loved me for the first time 6 weeks or more and then told me she wanted to put our marriage back together. She also said she still needed to sort her herself out.
> 
> ...


wonderful 8yrs...it's been quite a journey... and it's not over yet. but you are amazing. keep faith.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

snowstorm said:


> *Bob, in the midst of a failed marriage one is NOT thinking rational*. Matter of a fact, all I can recall thinking is why can't my husband just love me...why am I invisibile when I try so hard.
> 
> I don't recall saying that I "blamed" him for the affair. But the poster is asking "WW" about _their_ _feelings._ And my reply is describing what led up to me making the decision "I" made. And I will continue to say that yes, my failed marriage( _ my husband as well as myself_), led me to make a poor decision. The majority of affairs are not black and white as I have said.
> 
> ...


I kind of hear what you are saying, but I think we’re still disagreeing. We’re not on the same page, well metaphorically speaking. Ok perhaps we can agree to disagree.

I’ve got myself to the point where I refuse to accept any responsibility for another’s behaviour. And in the same way I refuse to blame anybody else for my behaviour.

If I make a bad decision then that’s my problem and nobody else’s.

It is a boundary thing with me “I will not accept responsibility for any thing you choose to do in your life. That responsibility is yours and your alone”. “I will not blame anyone else for my behaviour. My behaviour is my responsibility and mine alone”.

Those two boundaries delineate for me where I end and others begin. When we “stop the blaming and accept responsibility for our own behaviour and other’s theirs” that is the time we truly come to know ourselves, who we are and the time when we truly come to know the person we are living with, who they are.

Those two boundaries stop the dysfunctional dynamics in the marriage in it’s tracks. And we “wake” up and perhaps see one another “for real” for the very first time. It is a matter of “acceptance without the need to understand”. And that’s quite difficult, at least for me.

Think on it perhaps for a bit. Even now you are still comparing your husband to other men. You are still complaining that he hasn’t done as much as other men in your reconciliation. You are perhaps caught up in a crazy dance because you will not accept who he is and you will not accept who you are!

Bob


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 yrs ..thanks, I asked for a copy of the budget she came up with this morning her initial body language response was a head down frown. She is suppossed to see a mortgage person today. Her secondary motive behind finding a house is that it could be a rental property, she had mentioned that about 3 weeks ago. Eldest son is a teen looking to move out that was her thought also. 
Our incomes are almost equal however she has the easy potential to make more mine is fixed. 
Yesterday emotional breakdown todays goal not to breakdown and to 100% backoff again as I did a couple weeks ago and go from there. Topping it off my B-day this week. Snowstorm I would love your input too. 8 Yrs thread feels like i could have written it. Her emotions are so unclear she is not expressing them.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

To those women who have cheated posting here on 8 yrs I would really appreciate your input on my thread..... Wife decided after ea/pa divorce seperation is the only way help save this pls ( 1 2) 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ivorce-seperation-only-way-help-save-pls.html

Thanks,
Disbelief


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Things are going great though she has been quite confused about my reactions. I told her I was going through a form of post traumatic stress syndrome and sent her a description of it from a counselors help page. She told she has seen everyone of the symptoms and asked what she could do to help. Compassion! Things are indeed looking up and I have hope again!


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Snowstorm, You sound like a wonderful lady who has made a mistake she truly regrets. I am profoundly sad that your husband cannot show the love you deserve in spite of your mistake. Keep your head up and hope for the best. Maybe he will come around though there are lot of men who cannot forgive and look inward to see that they have created they the fertile ground that made it easier for you to stray. That is not to say they made they made decision you made. Only that the lack of affection and love they showed made it easier for you. In my case, my wife subverted or buried her issues with me and did not discuss them with me and found an ear with OM who was also married and having his own significant issues in his marriage. The two of them comiserated instead of dealing or communicating with their spouses as they should have. My wife now realizes that and is communicating her feeling to me. AN example was when I picked up her and my daughter up this weekend. She asked if I had seen my daughter. Because the area was crowded and noisy I told her no in a loud voice. I work in and industry where I am expected to be a wining negotiator and I have a deep commanding voice, especially when I yell. It is nothing I can control - or least not naturally and easily. I am the same winning negotiator with a command voice when I get an argument. It is very intimidating. My eldest daughter told me her friends have fearful respect for me but love me just the same. My wife on the other hand runs from conflict and cannot confront me. She now realizes this and we are trying to find ways for her to not fear me so much. When I yelled this weekend I scared the **** of her. She told in tears later that I scared her and I explained I meant nothing by it. I was not mad or upset.

Think of why our husband is reacting the way he is to your affair. Search for the words Post traumatic stress syndrome and infidelity. You may find some understanding to his reactions. Show compassion for his feelings and true regret for having hurt him so severely. You may find him returning your compassion and more willingness to forgive. In my case it was the reverse. I showed her I could forgive and move on. She meant more to me than the affair and i let her know it. Mind games in my my mind are just as dishonest. Be honest, let your guard down. You may get hurt. But you also may find the tide turning, if ever so slowly. 

Hugs to you and keep trying.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 years your W is very similar to mine I am happy things are going better for you. I have appreciated your input as well things got rough last night if you have a chance look at my thread and give me your take that would be great. Our W's personalities seem similar, mine would rather give me everything than have conflict over this. I don't know if I will have the results you have. Thanks Disbelief

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...tion-only-way-help-save-pls.html?nojs=1#links


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I tried to talk with my wife this evening about some of my fears. She will not discuss at all her feelings about what happened in the A. She just keeps saying she won't discuss it at all. I wrote the follwing and put it away locked up because I don't want to threaten the progress we have made so far. 

When I make a statement about something that is bothering me and you don’t respond at all, I imagine the worst possible and my fears explode even more. For me, it’s like having a monster in the room I can’t get rid of. Your reaction that you won’t be beaten up or bullied into answering hurts even more because it feels to me like you don’t care how I feel. I went to far tonight and I realize that. It will take time for me to work through my feelings. I feel like I’m doing it alone. You won’t comment on how you feel which feels to me like your hiding your feelings from me – what I know is precisely what created the fertile ground and I don’t ever want to get to the point again where you don’t feel like you can talk to me and have to go to someone else. I know you want to just want it over and leave the past in the past and for most part, so do I. Some of it won’t let me have peace unless I can understand that everything you showed in the past that I thought was love was real and not a lie for my benefit. Right now I don’t know what was real. Hiding all of my feelings all of the time leaves that monster in the room. I don’t want to make you feel guilty , beat you up or bully you. I just need to understand the parts I don’t – some of the missing pieces in that puzzle I can’t put together and then throw in the trash. My life with you almost ended and I’m scared to death it could happen again. My hypervigilance without knowing what happened gets worse because I don’t feel like I know what to look out for. I need to find peace and confidence. I have forgiven you. That doesn’t relieve you of the responsibility for your actions and the fallout from it. You need to help me as much I am trying to help you.

For the WW - Is this something I should give time to work out? It has only been a month since d day. Would this be pushing too hard? SHe obviously does not want to face up to the pain she has caused yet. And guys - don't get on your "what it should be" horses. If I had pushed as hard as some of you advised, things would be worse.


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