# As predicted, the argument begins...no sex for Valentines Day



## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, after 8 years of dealing with my wife's almost guiltless refusal to take care of my sexual needs (and actually getting angry with me for voicing them), the argument where it all changes is here.
My wife and I were supposed to have tomorrow (President's Day) all to ourselves. We were going to go to lunch and a movie...no children, no distractions. Well, school for our kids is cancelled tomorrow, so we'll have no alone time. I suggested busying the kids with a movie or something so we could get a little intimate (because of a complication in pregnancy we're on doctors order..."No sex" -- but that doesn't mean she can't address my sexual needs in other ways). She literally scoffed at the idea. I can't remember now exactly how it went, but I said I have needs and it's been a long time since they've been met. There was a pause and then I just went about what I was doing before (surfing the web on my laptop). She got up and left without a word shortly after. And so now, the situation is typical...shes upstairs thinking I'm an a$$hole for wanting to be sexually intiate (since we can't have sex) **ON VALENTINES DAY** and I'm downstairs trying not to care. I do...but I refuse to be pushed around any more and not have my sexual needs met. Even worse, I'm not going to tolerate being treated like a criminal for having sexual needs. She'll likely blame me when we talk next. but my approach is going to be trying to get her to admit that I'm not a priority in her life. She'll claim I am, but there is no way she can say she cares about me and NOT address one of the most important needs I've been trying to voice to her for YEARS. It's nothing short of disprespect on her part...and I'm partly responsible for tolerating it for so long.
One of you has been helping me on the side, which I'm extremely thankful for. But I'm curious for some other points of view too.


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## Enough!!! (Feb 1, 2010)

While I understand that you have needs, has It ever occurred to you that she might..... STOP THE PRESS.... have needs aswell? I know, HUH, who knew?
Maybe she feels a little inadequate, as the reason for your non-sex life is her fault. Even if it is medical!
Have you tried putting a little less pressure about YOUR needs and voicing to her that you are aware she may have needs aswell. Maybe you could try addressing this (without soooo much pressure), by offering to satisfy her, then maybe you will get what you need.
I am just a little too over hearing about woman having to address their mans needs. We actually are human beings, and unless her vagina has completely closed up for business, then the way i see it, you also have obligation to her needs.
Go slow and steady, and at least pretend to your wife that her needs are as important to you as your own.
This will take some time, as it would seem the pressure has been on for some time. Don't give up on her. She has allot to deal with, and on top of lifes medical throws, she has your obvious dis-satisfaction to contend with.


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## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

1 - Valentine's Day is not also known as "I'm guaranteed Sex" day. I personally HATE getting anything sex related on valentine's day because I view it as an I love you day - not as I expect sex day. If sex happens I'm good with it  - I just don't like feeling that at the end of it all that is what has to happen.

2 - She is sick and pregnant - do you think that she likes being browbeat into performing sex acts on you, when there isn't anything in return for her other than you shutting up about how your needs are more important than anything else.

3 - She obviously hasn't cut sex off all together - as she is pregnant...with your child... - and talking to her the way you have been talking to her would get the same response from me. Angry and pissed off. 

Based on your writing you are coming across as completely selfish. Have you done recently for her that was unselfish without being nagged into it? Backrub...footrub...babysat the kids and sent her out to do some girly thing?


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

Enough!!! said:


> We actually are human beings, and unless her vagina has completely closed up for business, then the way i see it, you also have obligation to her needs.


Her vagina has been completely closed for business for 8 years.
There's a lot of history here that I've shared on other posts, and you didn't read them...didn't expect you to. But to say I've been more than considerate and have bent over backwards for her and would GLADLY satisfy any sexual or emotional need she has would be an understatement. I've done everything imaginable for her...cleaned the house without asking, bathrooms, errands, chores, you name it, I've done it. But this marriage is a case of zero reciprocation on her part. I've been abandoned for our children by her. I'm OK with that as she should naturally put motherhood first. But if I'm going to be relegated to employee status until our boys are taken care of when they're 18 or 21 or old enough to be self-sustaining, then the only need I have really is a sexual one. She and I get along well enough and care for each other enough that if that one need were taken care of by her, she wouldn't have to do anything else for me, and I'd continue to do everything for her.
But to say, "have you ever considered taking care of HER needs???" is, pardon me, ridiculous. Of COURSE I've done that...that's ALL I'VE DONE for the past 8 years.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

TNgirl232 said:


> Based on your writing you are coming across as completely selfish.


See my post about "having sex with her is like pulling teeth." All I've done is cater to her and support her and selflessly put her needs ahead of everything I could ask for for the last eight years.
I guess I should have provided a little more context to this post, as everyone else that has responded to my original post about my situation has stated that my wife is totally out of line whereas the only two responses on this thread are that I'm a selfish baby.
I'll say it again, for the last eight years, everything...EVERYTHING my wife has asked me to do I've done...chores, footrubs, errands, you name it, I've done it and I've done it to the best of my ability...BECAUSE I LOVE HER. and yet she'll tell me to do something, I'll do it, and then I'll get yelled at for doing it wrong and bickered at. And yes, she was willing to have sex, since we have children (and a third on the way)...yes...once a month...while trying to have a baby. Normally, I think most people have sex more than once a month when they're trying to have a baby. And if you ask "why on earth would you have a baby when your marriage is obviously not right???" Well, it's easy to reach a judgement when you're on the other side of the screen as me, but when the marriage is in the gutter, and then the wife gradually begins to emotionally turn around, you think things are getting better, she wants a baby, you agree, after a year of having sex about once a month, she gets pregnant, and then literally the same day as her pregnancy was confirmed, I was back on "employee status."
As for, "Why didn't you get your sex life back on track first?" That was a mistake, but it's never that simple. I guess I probably shouldn't have brought it up. Too many variables and after all the emotions and effort I've put into her over the years, to get very little, if anything in return it is quickly becoming not worth it to give myself to someone who does not do the same for me, and actually gets angry at me for asking her to.


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## sooner2000 (Feb 11, 2010)

I feel for you. I haven't read your other posts, but from what you've said, I really feel for you. My wife has learned over our almost 7 years of marriage how important sex is to me. Sex is not just sex to a man. It's how we feel loved by our wives and when they deny us that, problems occur. 

My pastor has put it very well. He said that marriage does not get put on hold for 18-20 years because you have kids. Take time for you as a couple and realize that when they are gone, it will just you two in the house for the rest of your lives. 

Women need to understand that it's not just about them and their kids. You married your husband, not your kids. Yes, you should nurture your children and raise them the best you can, but to neglect your husband's sexual needs is no different then to negelct your children's emotional needs. Now, that does not mean that a husband shouldn't meed his wife's needs (emotional, sexual, etc...) either. Marriage is not a 50-50 deal. It's 100-100. Each of you gives 100% to the other. When both partners are totally selfless and giving to the other, marriage can really thrive, but when one or both spouses are not, marriage often times ceases to exist. It's no suprise as to why there are so many divorces and so much infidelity.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

ONe of the worst memories of my marriage was my wife and I went on our second honeymoon and I asked if she wanted to make love on the second or third morning before we went out for the day and she said, "No, I really don't." This is your Valentines Day.

Devastating. . .absolutely devastating. . .I know what you are going through. It's horrible.

Your wife is/has invalidated the marriage. And just because she's pregnant, I don't take that to mean you had an active sex life. Our third child was conceived in a manner of sex 1x within a year. And no, she hadn't cheated. . .I am 95% sure. . .and he looks a lot like me (mini-me). You could be incredibly lucky like me.

You aren't just spouses, you are mates. . .and if you aren't mating. . .well, again, there is no marriage, only a legal partnership.

She won't like to hear this but it's true.

If this is a long pattern, my advice would be to tell her you will stick with her 1 year post-partum and then proceed to divorce/dissolve the legal partnership on those legitimate grounds if she doesn't at least try to get into it. Tell her you are only trying to be honorable because she is X months pregnant. I lost my 30's to my stb-x in a remarkably similiar situation you are in. Don't make my mistake.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

We've had the same argument I don't know how many times over the course of at least 7 years. It's the same cycle of destruction. She won't have sex with me for whatever reason. I need sex. I get frustrated that I don't get it. She gets angry that I'm frustrated. The fight ensues and goes on and when it's over, nothing changes. For 7 years I tucked tail because I hated seeing her upset. I realize that this may have created this situation...it certainly added to it. 
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time. I have a couple of poignant lines to give my wife when we begin talking, but they're not accusatory or degrading. Just something from my perspective. And then rather than argue or bicker, I'm going to ask her that we go to marriage counseling. My job pays for 12 sessions with a licensened marriage counselor. If she refuses free sessions to save our marriage, I can at least leave knowing I tried with everything I had.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sooner2000 said:


> Marriage is not a 50-50 deal. It's 100-100. Each of you gives 100% to the other. When both partners are totally selfless and giving to the other, marriage can really thrive, but when one or both spouses are not, marriage often times ceases to exist. It's no suprise as to why there are so many divorces and so much infidelity.


 So true. I often wonder why the courts will not uphold the refusal of sex in marraiges -for grounds of a divorce - just as they do for infidelity. The refusing wife never gets any attention, she comes out of the process as innocent, only the man who is SO frustrated & in pain who slips up -because of her refusal. Just isn't right. The low drive spouse has everyone by the balls. 

I feel for your situation. 

I tell my husband if he ever starts acting like that ( I see it way too much on these boards), I WILL be WEAK, Frustrated, completely Miserable & WILL fall into the arms of another. ANd I mean it. 

She needs to be told you are not willing to live like this the rest of your life. You can find someone else who will love you the way you NEED to be loved and cherished. LOts of things she can do for You when she is pregnant, it does not take much to take care of a man's needs. Probably 5 self-less minutes of her time once a day and I bet you would be VERY satisfied .


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

michzz said:


> If you lead with your chin, then you get hit.
> 
> You two played out the same tape yet again.
> 
> The MC is a good idea.


I agree with michzz.

I know exactly what you are going through - but you're going about addressing it in a manner that all but guarantees that things get worse - not better.

If that is your goal, and you plan on ending the relationship then it's fine. But if you actually want to improve your marriage and build a sexual rapport with your wife, demanding to be serviced isn't going to get you there.

What value do you have to her? Seriously think about this.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> She needs to be told you are not willing to live like this the rest of your life. You can find someone else who will love you the way you NEED to be loved and cherished. LOts of things she can do for You when she is pregnant, it does not take much to take care of a man's needs. Probably 5 self-less minutes of her time once a day and I bet you would be VERY satisfied .


SA, you have completely nailed it. Every part of your post, but especially what I've quoted above. I've been posting my problems on this board for a week or so now trying to figure out the best thing to say for a given situation. I've gotten some good advice and some not-so-good advice, but the value of the responses by everyone cannot be overstated. And after reading and rereading and "practicing my lines," I think I've found the most valuable approach:
1. ask her what her priorities are to see where I fall (she'll say kids first, being a good wife second; at which point I may add something to the effect of, "How can you claim to have being a good wife as priority #2 when you have stubbornly denied me of my greatest need almost since we got married?" Regardless of her response, I will proceed to the second part...(NOTE: to anyone who says I'm being selfish or objectifying my wife and refusing to take care of her needs or put her needs in front of mine, please read my post and the responses to the post titled Unaffectionate Wife - having sex is like pulling teeth and you'll see that for our entire marriage I have sacrificed my needs and wants to satisfy hers. I'm now at the end of my rope)
2. tell her that I cannot go on living like this. There will be no accusations, no blame, no arguing...not even me saying something like, "this isn't a marriage, we're simply friends with the same children living together" or something similar. I'm just going to say very plainly and calmly, "I cannot go on living like this. We've been having this argument over and over for years and we obviously haven't been able to resolve our differences. Unless something changes, at some point, this marriage will fail. I want us to start seeing a marriage counselor."
I'm in the military, and because of high deployments, unique stressors, PTSD, etc, the military has a program where they will pay for 12 sessions with a licensed civilian counselor. If my wife refuses to attend free marriage counseling (she has stated she would not do marriage counseling before...that if the marriage got to that, it's basically over), then I think I can safely (and sadly) say that the marriage is over. I can remain for the birth of our third child and we can get our affairs in order so that we can part amicably and provide the sanest and "least unhealthy" setting for our two 7-year olds.
And SA, right-f&ckin-on about a spouse that won't take care of the other's sexual needs and that not being a viable reason for divorce. 
Even though I'm a Christian, I'm on a spiritual low right now. But the bible is very clear: the only permissible grounds for divorce is infidelity. I've thought about this a LOT...and I think that a spouse's refusal to meet the other's sexual and emotional needs is actually a form of infidelity. After all, what does, "to have and to hold" mean? I think it's a spiritually correct, churchy way of saying to meet your partner's sexual, physical, and emotional needs. If one spouse meets those needs with someone else, it's an EXTRAMARITAL affair. But if a spouse simply refuses to meet the other's needs, that's an INTRAMARITAL affair. Either way, it's infidelity IMHO.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> There was a pause and then I just went about what I was doing before (surfing the web on my laptop).


 Just a thought, but, if this IS your normal SOP, then maybe you need to spend more time educating yourself on that laptop. Instead of surfing for whatever it is you surf for, surf for psychology lessons on how to provide a satisfying marriage. 

Mind, I am NOT saying you're being a bad husband. I'm saying that what you ARE doing...is not working. So research. Learn. Read. Find out WHY it's not working. If you're going to spend all that time on the internet - instead of, say, snuggling with your wife, or putting time into your kids - make it time well spent.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

That's ok, I didnt have sex on my birthday AND my husband worked and went to the gym instead of thinking "what would make my wife happy on HER birthday?" Instead he came home from the gym and put a new light fixture up and then was showered and "ready to drink wine by 6pm... I meanwhile was waiting all day for him to be done with his stuff.... I feel your pain.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Scannerguard said:


> ONe of the worst memories of my marriage was my wife and I went on our second honeymoon and I asked if she wanted to make love on the second or third morning before we went out for the day and she said, "No, I really don't." This is your Valentines Day.
> 
> Devastating. . .absolutely devastating. . .I know what you are going through. It's horrible.
> 
> ...



Wow... my honeymoon was the same (and it was our first honeymoon, just married). He was more interested in drinking by the pool bar than having sex!

Sucks, but its real. Unfortunately, reframe it (social work term) or you may have to get out.... but just know getting out doesnt make it any easier on you. You will be giving her child support and alimony and you wont see your kids everyday, and dealing with them going back and forth getting used to it all, also is difficult. You will feel drained financially and emotionally.

I have reframed my situation so that I can stay, I just posted today about it. Its so darn confusing isnt it? :scratchhead:


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

I have been following your posts so I know your situation. As someone else posted - you want your marriage to work/improve so you need to change your approach. You need to find out her needs and what's going on with her. I get that you are sexually deprived and frustrated and that's not fair. Trust me, been there, I know all too well what happens when you let the sexual part of your relationship die......learned my lesson. So I want to give you the opposite point of view to try to help. 

First of all, no matter how "right" you are, complaining that you're not getting sex............WILL NEVER GET YOU SEX! Will only p*ss her off, which in turn will p*ss you off, etc. Vicious cycle. You need to focus on restoring your emotional connection with your wife which will then lead to sex. I think marriage counseling is a great idea, you are willing but you say she is not. Perhaps tell her how important she is, your boys are, your baby is and you want to have the happiness that you all deserve. Tell her you want to do it for THEM! (Play the kid card, may not be right but thinking that may work in your case) 

She doesn't sound like a bad person and I don't think she's trying to deny you and hurt you intentionally. Yes, it's sounds like she has taken you for granted, I get that. (again, been there) but I don't think she's truly understanding that by doing so she could lose you. (I didn't) I think there is some underlying guilt or resentment there that she may not even realize. So, by you throwing in her face that you aren't having sex, that's just not helping. How about begging her to cuddle with you? Hold hands, make out? I am sure she is exhausted with your boys and being pregnant. I am not making excuses for her, I am just saying what goes through a mommy's mind. She is so focused on your kids and being a good mom, she has forgot she also has to be a good wife. (again, been there) It's hard, you don't realize you can be both. I am madly in love with my H again, honestly never thought I could feel this way again, ever. AND I am still a good mommy. But you could have beat me over the head with a stick a year ago and told me this and I would have thought you were crazy.


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## mujer_rota (Feb 10, 2010)

This post has really helped me understand some things.. but what do you do if your H gets frustrated from less sex than he wishes he had with his wife. He doesn't meet his W's needs regularly. He treats her as if his sexual needs aren't met NONE of hers are. And that she deserves to be miserable if his sexual needs aren't met. That makes her want to not please his selfish A$$ at all. 

It's hard for me to give even just a tiny bit when he doesn't at all. He tries to tell me that if i will just want to be more sexually active he will be more receptive of me asking him to do things around the house. Once in a blue moon he has done some form of 'housework' without being asked. But is half-a$$ed. He will tidy the livingroom. motly just pick up and throw it into whatever room it belongs in. Laundry is never touched nor are the dishes.. oh and it has to pile up before he will FINALLY take out the trash. Sometimes I'll get tired of looking at it and just take it out my damn self. even if it takes 3 or more trips to the dumpster. It is exhausting...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mujer, your situation seems to be one of boundaries and communication. He KNOWS you will go ahead and do everything, so why bother? And he knows you're unhappy, but as long as he doesn't have to do anything, he doesn't care. If you could rephrase this into a what-if situation, let him see what a better solution would look like - if you met his needs, he met yours, things get better, not worse...but you have to be willing to let him know you won't continue on this path. How about this: tell him that, instead of if you would do SF, he would clean, say 'If you would clean, I would do SF. SHOW me that you will own up to household responsibilities, and it will fill my love bank for you, and I will WANT to have more SF with you; that's what women NEED in order to compensate for your higher drive.' But also let him know that you don't NEED the SF like he does, and you are ALREADY doing 99% of the household responsibilities, so it doesn't matter to you at this point if he's not participating because HE is the one missing out on SF, not you. So, you could just eliminate it and keep going on as before; HE is the one who won't get what he needs. So, it's his choice whether he wants to change his attitude. And, oh, by the way, if you both work, you BOTH have responsibilities at home.

If he still balks, you can do what I did. Stop doing his laundry. Stop buying the foods he likes. Stop shopping for his new clothes. If you have to pick up his trash, dump it where he keeps his keys and phone and etc., so that he has to deal with it, not you. Don't stop the stuff that hurts the rest of the family, just his stuff; make him realize - by omission - what all he's getting from you already. 

It may start a war, but you may have to, to make your point. The book The Dance of Anger has a lot of good ideas for this subject.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mommy2 made me think of something, talking about cuddling. Many women simply want to cuddle. WITHOUT the fear that it will lead to SF. I remember point blank asking my H, early on, if we could just spend SOME of our time cuddling without him having to have SF as well. He said 'Sure!" (we were still dating). Didn't happen. So what did I do? I stopped sitting next to him. I pulled away in the kitchen when he hugged me, so he couldn't grab something. I did what I had to, to control the situation.

So I'll ask you: do you spend time cuddling when you aren't looking for more? IMO that's a number one way to get her to relax and trust you, and want to become more intimate - knowing that every time she is physically close to you, you won't start groping.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

turnera said:


> mommy2 made me think of something, talking about cuddling. Many women simply want to cuddle. WITHOUT the fear that it will lead to SF. I remember point blank asking my H, early on, if we could just spend SOME of our time cuddling without him having to have SF as well. He said 'Sure!" (we were still dating). Didn't happen. So what did I do? I stopped sitting next to him. I pulled away in the kitchen when he hugged me, so he couldn't grab something. I did what I had to, to control the situation.
> 
> So I'll ask you: do you spend time cuddling when you aren't looking for more? IMO that's a number one way to get her to relax and trust you, and want to become more intimate - knowing that every time she is physically close to you, you won't start groping.


Tunera - EXACTLY! I think, at this point, you need to make your wife feel you just want to be close to her. So, if it's just cuddling, then it's cuddling. (take the sex expectation off the table for a bit.) Some woman do get to the point when they take your signs of affection as groping! (cuz sometimes that's what they are!) I mean, if you haven't been intimate for a long time, lots and lots of hugs and kisses are welcomed - walking up and grabbing my a** or boobs....NOT!! Again, I think she's in that Mommy mode - everyone is WANTING something from her, she will give in to the kids whining and give the kids whatever, but you whining about sex, yes, sorry as cruel as it sounds, she could give a rat's a** about that right now.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Tunera and Mommy2 are onto something great. She is the low libido and has the balls by the horns, all lower libido spouses do bc they arent the ones needing or wanting anything. So, the only way to affect positive change is by changing how you approach your spouse. Its what I am doing. Im not happy about it at all, but my children LOVE myhusband and I know I have to make this work, and I love my husband but know that he will never satisfy my needs... (I think the revelation of more sex than I could handle was a load of BS, still havent seen it). AND trying the same old routine is, like the OP stated, insane... bc it only leads to yelling, resentment and hurt. I had to numb myself and ask God for help to not want to have sex, so that I could get into bed and sleep next to my husband knowing we werent going to have sex. It was the only way, bc otherwise I want to go down the hall to the guest room, or sit outside and smoke (cig not the illegal stuff) all night long bc I cant sleep from the angst. I even have thoughts of hitting him with a pillow when he turns over and puts his mouthpiece in without so much as saying goodnight... no kiss or anything. He would cry abuse if I did that, its just who he is.

I literally had to get myself to the point where I dont expect anything from him other than mortgage payments. Sometimes I look at him and loathe him and sometimes I look and think hes a nice guy just not right for me... but he is selfish, that is just part of who he is and I know that now. Many times I look at him and think he is hot, because he is, and then that frustrates me bc I cant have him when I want.

We cant change them, but we can change how we respond and act around them.

That being said... she is pregnant and there is a dynamic here unique to pregnancy...

She wants to be given to now, but doesnt remember how to receive maybe because of all the demands on her. Being a mom of young ones is so draining and she is pregnant on top of that... pregnant women yearn to be pampered and taken care of, not be asked to do anything for anyone else. I know that is selfish, but if she is selfish as a person (not cutting on her, its just a personality trait of those who wont do what their spouse feels is important) pregnancy will make her more so... Its a time when she beleives you should be bending over backwards for her because she is gross and tired, and gassy and whatever else she may be feeling, so you two can have another child that is uniquely yours. She is sitting over there thinking you are selfish for asking her to give you a bj... I know it hurts to hear that as you do not feel like you are asking for much... but that is how pregnant women can feel and having been pregnant myself... it is rightly earned... pregnancy is one of the most thrilling and agonizingly horrible months of your life... we want to know you appreciate what we are doing for you,we want to know we are still attractive to you, that you love us even if we cant give. SOme women breeze through pregnancies... most do not. Most dont feel like themselves again for months or years whenever they can get out of the haze of baby days. 

Now is not the time to demand sex... or ask. It is time to look within or to God to find strength to get through it somehow as requests only lead to more angst for you and her. Come to think of it, Im about to head upstairs and take care of myself... I try to do it when husband is at work so he doesnt know... if he finds out he thinks we dont need sex because I already had my O... faulty logic! SO masturbate in private, dont let her know and then breathe and stop asking and hold your tongue and practice not being resentful.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

while i see the pregnancy as a major issue to the immediate situation, the OP stated clearly here and in another thread that this is a long term situation, his frustration built up over the years and has now obviously peaked. taken for face value, his wife isnt a sexual person and no amount of cuddling is going to change that. if she was a willing sexual partner in this marriage she would have no issues with intimate contact with her husband of some sort.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I have to agree somewhat with toolate in that I do think during my wife's first pregnancy I didn't pamper her enough. . .some women, like my stb-x, long to be taken care of.

It's kind of a "sugar daddy" thing but there you have it. THey don't want to hear things like, "Hey women in Asia go squat in the field and get back to cutting cane the next day." 

That being said, all my advice regarding the long term problem of this and the pattern needs to be addressed. That's why I said give her a year of post-partum before you execute filing for divorce/annulment. But in the meantime, tell her that you would like to pamper her as much as you can but in the same breadth, what she is doing sexually is unacceptable.

Again, without mating, there really is no marriage anyway. . .it's just a legal partnership, simply a mishmosh business arrangement of property ownership and child-rearing. You mentioned the Christian perspective being infidelty as the only grounds and this translates into infidelty. . .no. . .it's not the only grounds.

A marriage can be annulled (From what I understand) on the basis of it not being consummated. And consummation is something that is an ongoing process, not a one time event on your wedding night.

That is, the Catholic Church's position (and we all know how uptight they are on sex) is "If you ain't sc&*&ing, you ain't married. You never were." Honestly, my stb-x and I were never married. . .we were just in business together.

Now. . .this doesn't mean if you have a dry spell that it's grounds for annulment either. There are some reasonable conditions to be met which is why it goes up before a tribunal. For instance, if she had cancer or a rough, nauseious pregnancy or a bout of post-partum depression. . .you can't just walk out because you aren't getting some. But an established pattern of non-consummation is certainly legitiate grounds in the Catholic Church.

Not sure what religion you are but that's a major Christian perspective - you are married - you are supposed to be doing it.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

toolate said:


> That's ok, I didnt have sex on my birthday AND my husband worked and went to the gym instead of thinking "what would make my wife happy on HER birthday?" Instead he came home from the gym and put a new light fixture up and then was showered and "ready to drink wine by 6pm... I meanwhile was waiting all day for him to be done with his stuff.... I feel your pain.


I read your second post too, toolate. Not to sound insulting to many of the ladies, but where the he|| do you find your husbands? Drinking at the bar instead of sex on the honeymoon!? Answering the phone and gabbing with dad instead of a wife willing and waiting??? I'm sorry...many of you ladies could very easily ask people like me, "where the he|| do you guys find your wives???" It's a fair question. One of the sexiest things I've ever seen of my wife was immediately after our wedding reception...she took off her dress and there she was...my DREAM...a beautiful woman in thigh-highs and a garter belt and panties...and she wouldn't let me have sex with her. That should have been my big clue.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

mommy2 said:


> I have been following your posts so I know your situation. As someone else posted - you want your marriage to work/improve so you need to change your approach. You need to find out her needs and what's going on with her. I get that you are sexually deprived and frustrated and that's not fair. Trust me, been there, I know all too well what happens when you let the sexual part of your relationship die......learned my lesson. So I want to give you the opposite point of view to try to help.
> 
> First of all, no matter how "right" you are, complaining that you're not getting sex............WILL NEVER GET YOU SEX! Will only p*ss her off, which in turn will p*ss you off, etc. Vicious cycle. You need to focus on restoring your emotional connection with your wife which will then lead to sex. I think marriage counseling is a great idea, you are willing but you say she is not. Perhaps tell her how important she is, your boys are, your baby is and you want to have the happiness that you all deserve. Tell her you want to do it for THEM! (Play the kid card, may not be right but thinking that may work in your case)
> 
> She doesn't sound like a bad person and I don't think she's trying to deny you and hurt you intentionally. Yes, it's sounds like she has taken you for granted, I get that. (again, been there) but I don't think she's truly understanding that by doing so she could lose you. (I didn't) I think there is some underlying guilt or resentment there that she may not even realize. So, by you throwing in her face that you aren't having sex, that's just not helping. How about begging her to cuddle with you? Hold hands, make out? I am sure she is exhausted with your boys and being pregnant. I am not making excuses for her, I am just saying what goes through a mommy's mind. She is so focused on your kids and being a good mom, she has forgot she also has to be a good wife. (again, been there) It's hard, you don't realize you can be both. I am madly in love with my H again, honestly never thought I could feel this way again, ever. AND I am still a good mommy. But you could have beat me over the head with a stick a year ago and told me this and I would have thought you were crazy.


You've hit the nail pretty squarely on the head mommy2. I'm not going to argue with my wife. I'm not going to be angry or anything. I'm just unemotional right now. I feel like I need to do this because she always expects that I'll be there...that after a day or two of our "spat" that I'll come crawling back like I always did in the past. But when the time is right, I just plan on asking her a few very simple questions about priorities to see where I fall (I have always made her a higher priority than me), and then I'm going to tell her that I love her, but that I'm not happy, and that if we're going to prevent this marriage from failing we need to see a counselor. My company pays for up to 12 sessions with a licensed marriage counselor. I think if she says no to that, then we can plan an amicable separation/divorce.
I'd rather my kids see a mutually respectful, fully loving divorce where they know they're loved, than a f$%ked up, fake, dysfunctional marriage.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> mommy2 made me think of something, talking about cuddling. Many women simply want to cuddle. WITHOUT the fear that it will lead to SF. I remember point blank asking my H, early on, if we could just spend SOME of our time cuddling without him having to have SF as well. He said 'Sure!" (we were still dating). Didn't happen. So what did I do? I stopped sitting next to him. I pulled away in the kitchen when he hugged me, so he couldn't grab something. I did what I had to, to control the situation.
> 
> So I'll ask you: do you spend time cuddling when you aren't looking for more? IMO that's a number one way to get her to relax and trust you, and want to become more intimate - knowing that every time she is physically close to you, you won't start groping.


She doesn't like cuddling. She basically wants to be left alone when it comes to any form of intimacy or emotional lovey dovey stuff.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> while i see the pregnancy as a major issue to the immediate situation, the OP stated clearly here and in another thread that this is a long term situation, his frustration built up over the years and has now obviously peaked. taken for face value, his wife isnt a sexual person and no amount of cuddling is going to change that. if she was a willing sexual partner in this marriage she would have no issues with intimate contact with her husband of some sort.


Bingo.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> I have to agree somewhat with toolate in that I do think during my wife's first pregnancy I didn't pamper her enough. . .some women, like my stb-x, long to be taken care of.
> 
> It's kind of a "sugar daddy" thing but there you have it. THey don't want to hear things like, "Hey women in Asia go squat in the field and get back to cutting cane the next day."
> 
> ...


Even though we didn't have sex on our wedding night, I think the marriage is consummated. But basically since about 1 month after our marriage our sex life has been polar opposite...she wants none of it (unless she wants kids) and I need it. Not all the time like she might argue...I just think about it all the time because I never get it. And she'd claim that for a few months we did it once a week...but it wasn't sex IMHO...telling me to "get it over with" or "make it fast" while lying on the bed in a catatonic state while stating from time to time, "no, don't do that" is not sex.
There is a major disconnect here and an argument that over the last 7 years or so we've proven beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that we are woefully incapable of fixing. This is why I want to propose counseling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jgn2112fletch said:


> She doesn't like cuddling. She basically wants to be left alone when it comes to any form of intimacy or emotional lovey dovey stuff.


 Was she like that before you got married?

If not, I'm guessing she may have put on an act to get married. If so, I'd seriously consider just moving on to the divorce part, if your sex life has been as you describe. 

Was she abused as a child?


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> Was she like that before you got married?
> 
> If not, I'm guessing she may have put on an act to get married. If so, I'd seriously consider just moving on to the divorce part, if your sex life has been as you describe.
> 
> Was she abused as a child?


No...but interestingly enough, you're the second person to ask. My friend who I confided in asked as well. She was VERY sexual prior to getting married. It was a long distance relationship though, so when we were together (about once every six weeks) we'd have sex. Once we got married, it was great sex for a few weeks. then she had this MASSIVE yeast infection that we kept passing back and forth. Finally the doctor said, "stop!" So we took some diflucan, stopped sex for a couple of months, and...well...I wanted to have sex and she didn't. It's never been the same.
I think there may have been a little bit of an unintentional show so to speak before getting married...I think my wife has a small degree of a complex I call "the Lurch syndrome" -- see my "Ladies, do you 'lose it' after the thrill of the hunt is over?" thread. It'll explain why I call it the Lurch syndrome. But basically, I think my wife wants what she cannot have, and then when she has it, she takes it for granted and gets bored. Except she's so used to me coming back, so to speak, when we fight, that I need to show that I'm at the end of my rope...and I might not come back this time. Anyway, read that other thread if you want a deeper insight to this whole complex I think she has a little bit of.
But to readdress one of your points...I think the sex was a little bit of an act, but I think it was unintentional. I don't think she set out to sucker me into marriage with incredible sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Was she abused?


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> Was she abused?


No...sorry if it was buried but that was the first part of my last post. As far as I know, she was never abused (I had assumed you meant sexually or abused by her parents). I know that in high school, the guy she dated all through high school used to abuse her. I don't want to affix any sort of 1-10 scale, but I think it was an occasional slap or push coupled with being constantly cheated on and the humiliation of feeling for soeone that is openly hostile and uncaring toward you...the relationship lasted 5 years and I know it was immensly stressful for her. And yet she has told me on a couple of occasions that the only place she and him got along was in bed. Which makes me feel wonderful (not). How pathetic...she gets along great in bed with the dude that uses and abuses her and cheats on her and couldn't care less about her, but the dude that loves her dearly she has zero sexual attraction to. Check out points 4, 5, 6, and 7 on my second post in my thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...ctionate-wife-sex-like-pulling-teeth-her.html and you'll get a little better understanding of what I mean here and what I'm feeling. Although I don't want to, I'm kinda seeing a pattern.


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So true. I often wonder why the courts will not uphold the refusal of sex in marraiges -for grounds of a divorce - just as they do for infidelity. The refusing wife never gets any attention, she comes out of the process as innocent, only the man who is SO frustrated & in pain who slips up -because of her refusal. Just isn't right. The low drive spouse has everyone by the balls.
> 
> I feel for your situation.
> 
> ...


:iagree: I think I love you! You should run for president.

Overall interesting discussion. My $0.02 is this:

1.) Whatever your needs are (sexual or otherwise) I think it's not only your right, but a real DUTY to DEMAND that they be met, perhaps not completely, but reasonably.
2.) You also have a DUTY to DEMAND no less than (but quite probably more than) 110% from *YOURSELF* going back towards your spouse.

It really is that simple. Not easy, but very simple.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

Longtime Husband said:


> 2.) You also have a DUTY to DEMAND no less than (but quite probably more than) 110% from *YOURSELF* going back towards your spouse.
> 
> It really is that simple. Not easy, but very simple.


It isn't that simple. I do have the right, but I'm not going to DEMAND it...I have demanded it in the past obviously it got me nowhere. Truth of the matter is, I don't want to be with someone I have to DEMAND it from. I want to be with someone who wants to give it to me for, at the very least, out of the love and respect she has toward me. Right now I think my wife has very little of either for me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My pseudo-spouse is actually dealing with this issue in therapy. And My spouse was victimized (sexually manipulated by an authority figure) and verbally and emotionally abused by her parents.

I'm no shrink - but it's the internet, so I can pretend. Do I recall that your sex life was pretty active prior to marriage?

Here is my wife's issue in a nutshell, and maybe something similar is going on with yours.

Sex made her feel accepted, loved and worthwhile. She used sex as a means to pursue love - enthusiastically. Our relationship was rocky at the start. She was far more invested than I was - and she was sexually aggressive, and creative.

Fast forward to her 'knowing' that she had me; I loved her and wanted to marry her - and everything began to change. What it comes down to, is somewhere deep down, she doesn't actually believe that she deserves to be loved. So, in effect it's all about the pursuit, being inappropriate, and an element of uncertainty, danger and excitement. This is why she chose to pursue an affair rather than work on repairing our marriage. It's also why she pulls away from TOM now that she believes he loves her. It's also why she refuses to be proactive about getting a divorce. Uncertainty is her comfort zone as bizarre as that sounds. 

Something to think about. So in your case, the guy that treated her like crap is the relationship that stands out in her mind as exhilarating. You validate her, show her devotion and affection - and basically she doesn't buy it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly. That's why I asked about the abuse. When they HAVE to use sex to get the man, they use it and hide their shame from themselves behind a wall. Then, when they don't have to use it any more cos they got the guy, they turn off the sex machine so their toxic shame will stop flaring.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> Exactly. That's why I asked about the abuse. When they HAVE to use sex to get the man, they use it and hide their shame from themselves behind a wall. Then, when they don't have to use it any more cos they got the guy, they turn off the sex machine so their toxic shame will stop flaring.


This is as interesting as it is depressing. Only a MC will be able to bring this out of her. Certainly not me.


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

jgn2112fletch said:


> It isn't that simple. I do have the right, but I'm not going to DEMAND it...I have demanded it in the past obviously it got me nowhere. Truth of the matter is, I don't want to be with someone I have to DEMAND it from. I want to be with someone who wants to give it to me for, at the very least, out of the love and respect she has toward me. Right now I think my wife has very little of either for me.


Keep in mind that I clarified that it was NOT EASY...just simple. Also, let me be clear about what I meant by "demand". You can SAY you demand something, but if there is no real downside for the other party to give you that which you demand, then it's just begging/whining. If there is a very clear (ideally painful) downside to your spouse being indifferent to your demands--and they KNOW it--, then they will be met. HOWEVER, if you're not demanding of yourself in return at the same high level, you're just a self centered pig.

jgn, I have read your posts & I know that you have demanded of yourself at a very high level. I also realize that you have some family dynamics which make it very difficult to be 100% "demanding", so I think you are right that it might not be that simple for you NOW....but if you can send the clear message to your wife that, unless some serious changes come about SOON, you are gone at the first opportunity (and she believes you completely), you will either a.) have a spouse who suddenly becomes, respectful, aware & motivated toward meeting your needs....or b.) you will know where you stand.

But I think you better be aware that standing your ground could mean losing your family as you know it, eventually.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

yeah, that's called boundaries. If you can't live the rest of your life without sex, that means you're willing to leave her. THAT is the basis behind your 'demand' - and of course, it should never be said as a demand. You should lovingly tell her that you want to be with her for the rest of her life, but you can't go without sex. So, if she has some issue with having sex, you are going to have to divorce so you can find a wife who will agree. If she is Christian, you may point out that the Bible says sex is to be PART of a marriage. Tell her you need to understand her thought process but, at the end of it all, you simply can't continue this way.


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

turnera said:


> yeah, that's called boundaries. If you can't live the rest of your life without sex, that means you're willing to leave her. THAT is the basis behind your 'demand' - and of course, it should never be said as a demand. You should lovingly tell her that you want to be with her for the rest of her life, but you can't go without sex. So, if she has some issue with having sex, you are going to have to divorce so you can find a wife who will agree. If she is Christian, you may point out that the Bible says sex is to be PART of a marriage. Tell her you need to understand her thought process but, at the end of it all, you simply can't continue this way.


True "style points" do count in this, but only to the extent that they don't detract from the message. When I was in the OP's shoes, I erred on the side of being to rough.....but the conversation *started out* by my reaching out taking her hand & "lovingly sharing my concern" with her. That approach was met with a bristling nastiness & an almost hissing diminishing of my sexual needs as being sophomoric.

After about an hour of her indifference cynicism during this conversation. I just calmly said "you suck" & I meant it (I had never, EVER spoken like this to my wife in 23 years together). Let me tell you it stopped her dead in her tracks and, even though the conversation was a difficult one for the next several hours, the worm turned with that comment.

My wife has always been a VERY loving & warm woman, but on the topic of my sexual needs, she would just scoff & bristle. I think that if she were being 100% honest, even she would admit that she needed me to be pretty rough in delivering my message in order for her to really HEAR it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great point. I'm pretty big on being in your face on things, because I think most people, at least in America, are taught to be polite at any cost, and it hurts us in relationships, because we'll continue to accept poor behavior from our spouse a LOT longer than we should. After 30 years of doing that, I finally realized how much it hurt BOTH of us to accept his harmful behavior. I actually helped him believe he was doing nothing wrong because I condoned it by saying nothing - and it's harmed his career and personal relationships. Now, I say what I believe, even though I'm afraid of the response.

And I hope/wish my husband would do the same. I do know he's been afraid to tell me the truth about some things because he expects poor behavior from me, too. So I work hard to fix my own, and be honest about his.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

The risk of the demand is that she may say good, that will be a relief... that's what my husband says, and then he stays anyway. I think he likes this sick sex for love game everyone has been talking about... he was highly sexual and creative and risky and then now sex is about control only. There is no passion in him, he has no desire to be considerate. Im in the same boat as the OP except Im the wife.

If she did start doing things for you, are you at a place that it would make a difference? Or would you be weary of why she was being so attentive and if it was going to end and she would go back to her usual ways? Just curious.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

toolate said:


> The risk of the demand is that she may say good, that will be a relief... that's what my husband says, and then he stays anyway.


There's no point 'demanding' if you aren't ready to walk yourself. It would likely have to be YOU leaving, since it's you saying you can't tolerate it any more. The ones not participating have no problem with the current situation.


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

turnera said:


> There's no point 'demanding' if you aren't ready to walk yourself. It would likely have to be YOU leaving, since it's you saying you can't tolerate it any more. The ones not participating have no problem with the current situation.


:iagree: 100%


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

toolate said:


> If she did start doing things for you, are you at a place that it would make a difference? Or would you be weary of why she was being so attentive and if it was going to end and she would go back to her usual ways? Just curious.


I think so...but let's just say I'd be evaluating her every move. If all of a sudden it came on strong but I could tell she wasn't into it or something was off, I'd be skeptical. I think in order for her to successfully demonstrate sincerity, it would take a year or so of total sexual reciprocation. Anyway can fake anything for a short period, but after 8 years of sexual misery, I honestly think that I'm justified demanding 8 years of anything I say (and any time I say it) goes in terms of sex...and that's just to get us back to even. I know that's not the way it works so that's not the solution I'm after. Just a hypothetical example.
But it will take a sustained longer-term effort with overtones of sincerity and mutual respect for me to "buy it."


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## curtsnokc (Jan 25, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

jgn2112fletch said:


> Well, after 8 years of dealing with my wife's almost guiltless refudres my needs,,, woman !!.... its sounds very neanderthal *take care of my sexual needs* its the way that you've said this that is making people say ... hey wake up !!
> (and actually getting angry with me for voicing them), the argument where it all changes is here.
> 
> * little intimate (because of a complication in pregnancy we're on doctors order..."No sex" -- but that doesn't mean she can't address my sexual needs in other ways). * so again this makes you sound bad
> ...





TNgirl232 said:


> 1 - *Valentine's Day is not also known as "I'm guaranteed Sex" da*y. I personally HATE getting anything sex related on valentine's day because I view it as an *I love you day - not as I expect sex day. *
> 
> 2 - *She is sick and pregnant *- do you think that she likes being browbeat into performing sex acts on you, when there isn't anything in return for her other than you shutting up about how your needs are more important than anything else.
> 
> *Based on your writing you are coming across as completely selfis*h. Have you done recently for her that was unselfish without being nagged into it? Backrub...footrub...babysat the kids and sent her out to do some girly thing?





jgn2112fletch said:


> See my post about "having sex with her is like pulling teeth." All I've done is cater to her and support her and selflessly put her needs ahead of everything I could ask for for the last eight years.* are you sure of this ? because if her love language/ needs were being met she would want to fulfil yours also ?!*
> 
> 
> I'll say it again, for the last eight years, everything...EVERYTHING my wife has asked me to do I've done...chores, footrubs, errands, you name it, I've done it and I've done it to the best of my ability...BECAUSE I LOVE HER. and yet she'll tell me to do something, I'll do it, and then I'll get yelled at for doing it wrong and bickered at. And yes, she was willing to have sex, since we have children (and a third on the way)...yes...once a month...while trying to have a baby. Normally, I think most people have sex more than once a month when they're trying to have a baby. And if you ask "why on earth would you have a baby when your marriage is obviously not right???"


you may think youve done everything but i would wonder ?, if my hubby did 25 % of the things you say you did i would be ecstatic !!
we had a great sex life, or so i thought and he still felt the need to have someone else to have sex with .
meanwhile we still had lots of fun in the bedroom even while he wasnt doing anything for me ( fulfilling my love language that is, not the bedroom thing, i always had fun their )

my hubby told me when i was pregnant and didnt want it as often that he was frustrated but he said it in a loving way and didnt demand it from me, i would actually suggest it to him and help him out even though i couldnt or didnt want sex all the time with my huge belly ( the later months of pregnancy )
but when he asked nicely and we had a name even for it and made it fun

you guys have to talk to someone to sort this out i think ?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

8 years? Try 13+ for me and we don't have kids, yet.

Other sexual means are oral, feet, breasts, BJ's, etc.

Men are built on testosterone, the sex hormone. That means we need our physical release often for our health, stress relief, sanity and it also bonds us to our women more than any words can ever do. 

When the women are usually never in the mood and get angry when we initiate sex (never happens), we men start going crazy and are sexual starved which leads to bad marriages, affairs and even divorce. Then women say, listen to me more, read this or that book(s), communicate more, I'm tired, every excuse not to have sex with the man they married and supposedly love?! Emotional closeness = good friendship. Sex + emotional closeness = loving marriage.

Valentines Day sex would be great. Getting your woman a nice card, chocolates, flowers and go out for dinner, awesome for her. But what about hubby.....?

During pregnancy, sex shouldn't be the main focus. She can feel sick, unattractive, her hormones are changing, a bad time for sex unless she is actually in the mood. After the kid, it takes time for her hormones to return to normal and don't expect sex until she is ready. Some women can have sex only weeks after giving birth, everyone is different.

See, you've done a lot for your wifee over the years and sex still doesn't really happen. That's because most women like to be romanced, chased, persued and want what they can't have. Once they have it, the chase is over and don't want it as much or anymore. Reverse thinking, desire what you don't have and don't desire what you do have.

Myself, I have done the random flowers once a month. I have cuddled with her and rubbed her feet. I have done most of the chores all the time. I do the grocery shopping and recycling, etc. I surprise her with supper before she gets home before I do (once a month) and we eat together, talking and watching tv. I have never turned her down for sex or fallen asleep during foreplay. I have never told her she is very fat, lose the weight or I want a divorce (threats don't usually work). I have read the recommend e-books here and am more alpha male. Sex drive on her part is still pretty much the same. Some women are conservative, prudes and have LD's. Just the way it is and some women have high healthy sex drives and want it as much as their men.

Testosterone shots for women would raise their sex drives a lot. Female weight trainers taking test shots have been known to want sex once every day. Read those posts.

I would find a middle ground for sex. You want it all the time? She wants it once a month or less? What about 3 times a week then? That's a 50/50 compromise. But if it winds up being once a month or less again, no compromise on her part. Feet, breasts, hands, BJ's, etc. Watch some adult movies she would be into and try her fantasies and see.

I'm a God fearing man and have a high sex drive. My wife isn't and has a low sex drive.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)




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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jgn2112fletch said:


> We've had the same argument I don't know how many times over the course of at least 7 years. It's the same cycle of destruction. She won't have sex with me for whatever reason. I need sex. I get frustrated that I don't get it. She gets angry that I'm frustrated. The fight ensues and goes on and when it's over, nothing changes. For 7 years I tucked tail because I hated seeing her upset. I realize that this may have created this situation...it certainly added to it.
> They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time. I have a couple of poignant lines to give my wife when we begin talking, but they're not accusatory or degrading. Just something from my perspective. And then rather than argue or bicker, I'm going to ask her that we go to marriage counseling. My job pays for 12 sessions with a licensened marriage counselor. If she refuses free sessions to save our marriage, I can at least leave knowing I tried with everything I had.


Telling her "I need sex" is a bad way to go about it. 

She is likely to look at you like a child begging for a cookie. Not very appealing, is it?

Try expressing the desire for intimacy.

Saying "I need sex" honestly can sound like pouting to a woman. 

It's a lot easier for us to roll our eyes at you when you make it sound like it's all about what YOU need. Ie...in her mind...an orgasm. 

Sounds like she thinks that's all you're after.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

OP has been gone since 2010
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jd08 said:


> OP has been gone since 2010
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stupid dead threads! :scratchhead:


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

No sex is No. 1 problem of my clients.

The interesting thing is that, when it is women who want the sex more and dont get any the reason is: because the husbands are rarely available (even sexualy). 
When it is men who want more, the reason is: *you can fill in all the reasons you know in here* + most men usually complain that they always do a lot for their wives or put them first (pedestral syndrom). Interesting is that women rarely complain about doing too much for their husbands though beieng turned down.. I dare to conclude that women give more out of thir hearts than men do in a relationship.

What do we learn:
a) women do not get turned on when on pedestal
b) men try do bribe their wives into sex and are angry to be turned down, which I see as any womens right, because beieng bought isnt loving. I think this is a subconcious process in female minds, but most men do not get to understand this because our society actually condemns men to be nice in order to get what they want..
c) Men should stop making sex a big deal at home and work on not always being available for sex or female issues. Which means to stop initiating frequency till she gets used to initiate, which means beieng less available for rejection.


Conclusion: The one with less demand has power over the supply


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