# Mental gymnastics to stay



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to stay with your WS. I don't understand why ppl do this. Why? 
How do you decide if it's good enough? Does the WS have to be perfect?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Steph,

I think some people as just so terrified of change in their lives they will do almost anything to justify staying with their WS....even if the situation is totally degrading and humiliating.

I feel real pity for a BS who stays out of fear.....and unfortunately that seems to be the majority of them.

If they R from a position of strength where the WS makes complete amends and demonstrates 100% total commitment to and appreciation for their second chance....then I don't see them as being weak or desperate at all, even if I would never personally choose to do that.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

The WS will never and can never be perfect. But the WS must strive to be the best they can be. They failed the marriage and the BS. If given a second chance they must be grateful for that and no squander the opportunity.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I think the problem I would have in reconciling is that I would now know with certainty that my spouse did not love me. I would not be happy in a relationship knowing that.
I really feel that those who stay after being abused like this do themselves a grave disservice. They are in denial.
One author and now website owner has been idiotic enough to have written a book entitled "My Husband's Affair Was the Best Thing etc."


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I was not out to reconcile (and I still have feelings) out of desperation. I am still good at picking up women, considering I haven't done it for years.

WS do stupid things for stupid reasons.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

but this is more of a question for BS. If a BS asks for something that they think they need for recovery, should the WS always provide that? Or, is it out of line for the BS?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> but this is more of a question for BS. If a BS asks for something that they think they need for recovery, should the WS always provide that? Or, is it out of line for the BS?


Yes they should. If they are serious about staying in the marriage they should do it with a smile on, no matter the request.

The bigger question is: if you, the BS, are that tortured over the betrayal and the WS actions or inactions during the supposed reconcilation, why would you want to stay. There is that old saying, if you want to save your marriage, you need to be prepared to leave it. If he sees you are leaving, he may get serious about meeting your needs. If he still doesn't, you are better off leaving. You don't need to be beholden to a cheater.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to stay with your WS. I don't understand why ppl do this. Why?
> How do you decide if it's good enough? Does the WS have to be perfect?


For myself, there would be no mental gymnastics. My requirements to stay in the marriage would be absolutely straight forward, and I would expect 100% compliance, 100% of the time.

I am smart enough to realize that is a monumental to the point of impossible burden for another person to carry, which is why I would do the kind and compassionate thing and end the marriage.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Yes, if the request is reasonable and within the ability of the WS to do it. The BS should make the request and explain why it is needed for R. The WS should then either provide it or sufficiently explain why they cannot do so. 

IMO it all comes down to who values the relationship less. That person holds all the power. If the WS does not value the relationship as much as the BS, then they have less motivation to provide the "something" that the BS is requesting, especially if it is something that the WS does not want to do. To counteract this, the BS must be mentally willing to "go" and have the WS see that and understand that. That offers the BS a better chance of getting what they need for R.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to stay with your WS. I don't understand why ppl do this. Why?
> How do you decide if it's good enough? Does the WS have to be perfect?


My wife is not perfect and nor am I.

I love her. And I could not leave her. I thought about it but I couldn't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I have stayed with her because I am a coward. *I thought I was being honorable staying to raise my family but it was just a cover-up for my fear of being alone*; of starting my life over. I hate her for what she did and there is nothing that can repair the damage she has done."

I saw this comment from a guy on another site awhile ago.

So often on TAM, we see a BS refusing to consider a D and using their kids as the reason why, even when their WS is totally unremorseful and continuing the betrayal.

In the vast majority of these cases, I think the true reason is the one this man admitted to.

Saw my maternal grandfather do this too (though I didn't find out about all my grandmother's infidelities until I was much older, even as a kid I noticed the disdain and anger my grandpa had for her).

I feel pity for a person this unable or unwilling to fight for their own happiness and future.

But they have no one to blame for their misery but themselves if they choose to stay out of fear.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My H's disrespect for me was LARGE when I let him know that I wanted us to get outside help. Three months after Dday, I was struggling hard with him without it. He was afraid of it and lashed out at me. I had found a comprehensive program that addressed both sides of infidelity, but he fought so hard not to do it. That is until we went to counseling and in the middle of counseling he said "I think she thinks if I do this she can hold me responsible for it." I looked at him and said "Lets be clear, I can hold you responsible for it right now. There is no delay required." He was silenced. With that he realized I was being gracious by asking for the program and not going straight to divorce. So, we walked through the program and his heart continued to be impacted and his remorse began to hit in the middle of it. In turn it helped both of us tremendously. Had we not gone through that program, I do not believe we would be together today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> but this is more of a question for BS. If a BS asks for something that they think they need for recovery, should the WS always provide that? Or, is it out of line for the BS?


If he WS is begging for mercy, 2nd chance, honest R, surely the BS sets the rules. However... understand post DD time moves from days to months to years the rules (Balance of Power) will move also. 

I'm 6+ years post DD with my fWW. It is very apparent to me in the past 2 or so years, she has re-claimed much of (BoP) that was forfeited post DD.

Small things...

She swore she would return my emails and text sent during the day letting me know what she's doing, where she is. Lately this "rule" has become more of a suggestion. 

GNO... post DD she admitted that GNO was not something that supported our marriage. Men sometimes show up, and flirting was the norm. She swore she would never agree to GNO again. Well... in the past few years, she has dinner out with her work friends every few months. She swears it only the girls. 

Big things... 

Post DD and for 3 to 4 years, I was evident to me that she put me first. She really tried hard. Complaining was almost non-existent. Affection was daily, cards, emails, hugs... she initiated. Lately, I getting that feeling inside that I had when she was cheating, the "Hired Hand Husband".

I guess what's happening is just a natural return to what most 30+ year marriages are like regardless of infidelity.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Let's say you request for the WS to go to to IC, write a letter of NC, and they just won't do it. Do you absolutely need that to heal? IF recovery is going well? See, I think the WS should be falling over themselves trying to make it right. I don't understand why some people accept less if they don't have to. However, I can put myself in that position. Do I absolutely need to move to be able to heal? No, but it would be nice.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Both of those were a deal breaker for me. We would not be together today had he still had any contact OR had not attended counseling. Those things aren't guarantees, but they are an expression of love for thw WS by the BS. There is just no way I could have progressed in this relationship without his partnership in recovery work. I refuse to carry a relationship on my own. I don't like out of balance relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dan13732 (May 5, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to stay with your WS. I don't understand why ppl do this. Why?
> How do you decide if it's good enough? Does the WS have to be perfect?


I'm in a sexless marriage (SM) and on TAM to find some support, if possible. I was drawn to this thread by its title; those of us dealing with SMs are -- oddly -- often in the exact same situation: doing gymnastics with the decision to stay or go; trying to decide if it is "good enough" to stay or not.

If I had to boil down my wisdom to two condensed nuggets (that seem to apply to both post-infidelity and SM) it would be this:

You only have one life to live. Don't fritter it away trying to save something that shouldn't be saved. SO MANY people who leave SMs say "I don't know why I waited so long." Do you hear the same from those who left their WSs? (I honestly don't know; my question is not rhetorical; it is a genuine question.)
Stop asking if you've "tried enough" to make this marriage work; instead ask if you've "tried everything". Here's the subtle difference: what is "enough"? You can always try something harder, or try again. Or maybe you disparage your own efforts by the dubious logic: "it's not 'enough' because it didn't work." This is an endless, impossible standard. Instead consider everything you COULD do to fix it, and once you have tried _one of everything_... well, maybe you've done your duty.
Does that make sense?


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to stay with your WS. I don't understand why ppl do this. Why?
> How do you decide if it's good enough? Does the WS have to be perfect?


For whatever reason the BS has decided to stay in the marriage. Financial, codependency, love, etc. They don’t want to feel like a fool so they “twist themselves into a pretzel” to maintain their self-respect. Sometimes they sound like their WS’s defense attorney. They often draw a line in the sand and make a big show of if their WS crosses it there will be hell to pay. 

It’s interesting that they draw the line just past what they know their WS has already done. This allows them to maintain the status quo. If they find out more or their spouse crosses the line then they come up with some excuse to redraw the line. It like the old frog in water analogy. If you drop a frog in boiling water it will jump out but if you put them in cold water and slowly heat it they will stay in and cook.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Men especially twist themselves into a pretzel to retain some self-respect when there wife has a PA.

I don’t think women get at a gut level how important their physical fidelity is to their husband. First sex isn’t that big of a deal to women in that they can get all they want with little effort. When a woman gets married the bonus of regular sex doesn’t occur to her. It does to men. A woman knows that all of her children are hers no matter how many men she has sex with. Husbands depend on their wife’s faithfulness. 

As a group women value the relationship more. They can’t understand at a gut level how some meaningless sex can destroy a good relationship. When a WW wants to R she is basically asking her BS to continue doing his husbandly chores after giving what’s most special to him away to another man for free. The husband is thinking: "What’s wrong with me that she wouldn’t give me a deal like that. I had to earn the sex." 

So the BH twists himself into a pretzel. I would like the BH to ask: “If you now love me so much why not give me the same deal that you gave your boyfriend? We can get a divorce and have no strings attached sex. Of course the WW would not go for this because the reason she suddenly loves her husband so much is the relationship and those husbandly chores.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I think some men, like me, might also devalue sex after CS PA...I know I have....not sure if that's part of your pretzel twisting example or not. But I also think a lot of men put sex on a pedestal also...


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I think some men, like me, might also devalue sex after CS PA...I know I have....not sure if that's part of your pretzel twisting example or not. But I also think a lot of men put sex on a pedestal also...


If a man pays full price for something it must be very special and belongs on a pedestal. If something is given away it must not be special. No pretzel twisting there.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't see how anyone can stay with their WS unless they first break up with them and end the marriage. Not necessarily legally, but separate and have no contact until the BS has cleared their head. The first thing that should happen when you find out your spouse is cheating is that you kick them out and they actually go. If they refuse to go, you know they're not remorseful.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> I don't see how anyone can stay with their WS unless they first break up with them and end the marriage. Not necessarily legally, but separate and have no contact until the BS has cleared their head. The first thing that should happen when you find out your spouse is cheating is that you kick them out and they actually go. If they refuse to go, you know they're not remorseful.


well, I would say that's how many do NOT do it. The BS is so blindsided that they bend over backwards or beg to get the WS to stay. I think initially, they think they did something wrong, which of course is not the case. 
My questions belongs more in the well into recovery phase - what to BS's really need to heal? And should the WS provide that no questions asked.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The WS should be willing to chop off their left arm if the BS asks them to, for at least 2 years or so. Once they've proven themselves worthy, the BS can let up on them and even things out a bit more. Over time, if the WS stays remorseful, the BS will come to believe that the WS means it.

No WS has to put up with anything unreasonable, though. Such as actually being told to cut their arm off  After a bit of time the need for REVENGE will dissipate, and the BS will want to work on things WITH the WS.

What has to happen? The WS has to realize that they have to prove themselves worthy to stay with. Every single day for a number of years. If the BS needs a letter of apology to keep in her purse and look at when the need arises, she gets it. If the BS needs his wife to stop doing GNO, she stops. Ideally she VOLUNTEERS to stop it, before he even mentions it. Every WS has to perform a complete and thorough inventory of everything they did that was wrong and take steps to make it right. They need to discover the things they are doing that contributed to their lousy behaviour and fix it. If the WS is a sex addict, he has to attend counseling, a 12 step group, whatever he needs to stay sober.

There's no list of things the WS has to do - it will be different for each couple.

The BS is the one who gets to say when they're comfortable with the WS doing things. If the WS cheated online, it's up to the BS when he gets to play online games again. And he'd better not make a PEEP if it isn't time yet.


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