# Am I Crazy To Stay In This Marriage?



## manslave

Hello everyone, I am obviously new to the boards, though I have lurked for some time as my marriage has been in trouble for many years...

I'll just start right in and say that I'm here because I am at a point where I no longer know what it is reasonable to expect from my wife, and I feel so controlled and manipulated that I have no idea when I am being manipulated, and when I'm not. 

My wife has two basic tools which she uses to get what she wants. She cries like a child, sobbing uncontrollably for hours and if I don't hold her or concede to her demands (like give her an apology when she demands it or tell her that I was wrong) she'll cry longer and harder. Her tears are followed the next day with the silent treatment and the cold shoulder. I'll say "let's sit down and talk about last night" which is usually met with a terse "there's nothing to talk about," or "you want to talk now? get lost!" 

I don't pretend to be perfect, but I do have a loooong fuse, and it takes a lot to get me really angry. My wife is a master at lighting my fuse. She knows exactly what to do to get me angry. If I'm planning to go out somewhere in the car, she'll take the car while I'm in the shower. When I convince her to sit down with me so that we can discuss something that happened, she will stare at the television or her laptop. Something else that drives me to anger is that while she will look at her laptop, the TV, or out the window while I talk to her, she becomes angry if I do the same to her. She'll slam my laptop shut, turn off or stand in front of the TV, and if I go to another room to escape her (I'm no longer "allowed" to leave as this is seen as abandonment) she'll go to the circuit breaker and shut off the power. I did this to her once, and told her that this was the hell of living with her, and she never did it again. I'm not particularly proud of that, but I feel horrible that this isn't who I am, and I hate being in a relationship where I resort to such a petty and childish tactic only to make a point...

When I point out my wife's hypocrisy, or give her a taste of her own medicine, she'll literally explode. My wife used to threaten to kill me (she still does if I even so much as mention her family during an argument), but now she sometimes threatens to kill herself. At one point, my wife would grab a knife from the bathroom and then go into the bathroom sobbing like a child. She would sob uncontrollably, and when I would finally go into the bathroom to get her to come out, she would press the knife against her skin (careful not to actually cut herself, but hard enough to give the appearance that she might). After two weeks or so, I caught onto the manipulation, and told her that I would call 911 for her, get the police to pick her up, and have her hospitalized if she wanted, but I would not go through that anymore. 

I know this is a long post, but there really is a whole lot more that I haven't even said. I just don't know how to avoid being manipulated, and at times I'm not sure whether I am being manipulated or not. 

We no longer have sex even though we're young. I do the dishes, the vacuuming, take care of the cat, do all of the laundry, make most of the shared meals (and my own when not shared), take out all of the garbages, make the bed most of the time it gets made, clean the toilet and bathtub, and when someone shops alone or runs an errand, 75% of the time it's me. 

My wife's father does most of the chores in her family home. He is also their sole source of income. I think my wife believes that I should be like this as well, but I refuse to do this any longer (there is now a pile of dishes in the sink, the laundry is a mess, and the garbage is overflowing). I believe that she expects this of me. My wife always has some reason not to contribute, whether it be some pain, some stressor, or some other issue (like us fighting). It was actually my wife's own sister who made me aware of just how controlling she was. My wife was ordering me to do various things, I had become so used to it that I just did them (likely to avoid conflict subconsciously) and her sister said to her "my God, you are worse than our mom!" My wife apologized for being bossy and controlling, but she soon returned to the same behavior. Unfortunately, when I point it out to her, my criticism is not received the same way that her sister's was...

I have physiological symptoms like eyelid twitch, and I grind my teeth at night. I no longer go to the gym, and have stopped doing most of the things I used to find were fun. My wife has lost contact with her family (I do push her to call them for my part), her grades have suffered, and she is extremely depressed. 

I have tried to be firm, tried to stick up for myself, tried to remain calm and collected in the face of her rage, and tried to be the man in our relationship, assuming that our problems must be that I've been too soft. My wife sees these as misogynistic affronts, me being "cold", or me just being an *******. Actually, my wife loves to call me an *******. She's called me an *******, a bastard, a ****, a jerk, etc. I twice made the mistake of calling her a ***** when she pushed me that far and she slapped me both times. I've never hit my wife, but when I've been subjected to an assault from her (not in the last couple of years fortunately, this was during the early years), I would grab her by the wrists and tell her not to hit me. She would then accuse me of assaulting her because I grabbed her wrists...

We can't talk about our problems, because my wife explodes when she is even slightly criticized. I encourage her to make friends but she doesn't. She insists that friends in the United States aren't as good as what she grew up with... Furthermore, it's hard for me to keep or make friends because I feel that I must constantly be at her beck and call. 

I don't want to give up, but one can only take so much... She has some deep seated issues but refuses to see a therapist on her own because she doesn't want "to open Pandora's Box." I have offered to go to a therapist myself, just to encourage her, but she still won't go. We are in marriage counseling, but so far we have only scratched the surface... 

I feel worthless, and like I'm a bad husband, even though I know most wives are begging their husband just to take the garbage out. I'm doing almost all of the chores in exchange for no sex, earning a PhD, take good care of myself physically, and tell my wife how much I love her two, three, even four times a day! I'm reliable, dependable, responsible, I work hard, and yet my wife is still not satisfied. What is wrong with this picture? Am I crazy to keep doing this? Is this even fixable, or will it mean sacrificing both my legs, my soul, and my scrotum?

PS- We don't have any children.


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## jameskimp

This is not giving up, this is escaping a tormentor. Yes, you are insane to stay in this marriage. She will make you even more insane.

Thank God that you are young and have no children.

You've listed no redeeming qualities of hers. You don't have sex. 

Run.


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## manslave

Thank you for your response James!

You're right, I did not list her redeeming qualities, I guess that in my attempt not to write anymore (I know it's hard to believe) I left quite a bit out. I imagine it might not make any sense that I would ask whether to stay in this relationship if all I have to say are negative things. 

I really should say though, that she is very loving when we aren't going through hell (we spend maybe 66% of our time on good terms and 33% in hell). I know that she loves me, but I don't think she knows how to have a close and functional relationship with another human being. She is very emotional (which is a double-edged sword) and usually available in that way. She is very loyal, beautiful, and extremely intelligent (she is near or at the top of every class). She's a hard worker, and very passionate (which is also a double-edged sword) as well as a family person. She is dependable, reliable, honest for the most part (except when she deceives herself) and we have many shared interests including hiking, camping, the same taste in music, movies, books, travel, etc. 

We are very much in love (when things are going well we kiss often, cuddle, hug, etc. though sex is rather infrequent of late), but we can't get past all of the childish tantrums and fighting. I always believed that it takes two to fight, but with my wife, I have completely changed my mind. She can fight me even if I refuse to fight back, and the fight can rage on for hours or days without me so much as lifting a finger. If we could get past that, we really have a lot going for us. We are pursuing similar careers and passions, her family is wonderful (I am closer to them than anyone in my family except perhaps my parents), and all of this in addition to what I said above.

I should have included this all in the first post, thanks for pointing that out James.


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## EleGirl

How long have the two of you been married?

Abusive people are never abusive all the time. Look up the "cycle of abuse". I think you will recognize it.

How much of all the negative things you wrote is your marriage counselor aware of?


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## manslave

Hello EleGirl, 

We have been married for 5 years and dated each other for 8. 

I did look up the cycle, and it does seem to reflect our relationship fairly strongly. I have sometimes thought about charting our fights with my wife's menstrual cycle because it seems like our worst fights are around her ovulation and the end of her period which leads me to wonder how much of what is going on is hormonal. I hate to say that, because I know it's degrading and even perhaps a touch "sexist," but that's an observation I've made and have not dared share with my wife.

The counselor is not aware of most of these things. He is very into giving us little remedies which, at this point, have absolutely no chance of working in our household. The "honey, I feel that..." stuff simply doesn't work for us at this time because we're far too dysfunctional. I sometimes try to steer the conversation towards these things in therapy, but the counselor seems to redirect it towards meaningless devices which might work for functional relationships, but do nothing for us. Sadly, my wife seems to sharpen her skills at therapy and uses things the counselor says in a negative way back at home.


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## YupItsMe

No kids, run.


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## All of a sudden

Run forest run!


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## EleGirl

If I were you, the next time in counseling I'd tell the counselor that you have something to say as you have not been open enough in the sessions.

And then tell him exactly what is going on. If he cannot address the real problems then you are wasting your time.

Acutally I think that divorce might be your only safe way to go as she is abusive and abusers seldom change.


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## Leading Man

I like your point about it takes two to argue. I've heard this from many people. Also that it takes two to make or break a marriage. I've come to disagree with both. Nobody's perfect, but some dysfunctional relationships are pretty one-sided.


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## Waking up to life

Your wife sounds like she has a major personality disorder. As in Borderlne Personality. I'm waiting for Uptown to jump in here...he can usually spot it a mile away. 

Anyway...you aren't crazy. Your wife wants you to think you are because she can't deal with her own instability. She is extremely abusive to you and it is inexcusable. I'm sorry, but 66% of good doesn't outweigh 33% of absolute hell in a marriage. Since you have no kids, I wouldn't waste one more day letting her ruin your life.


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## Angus1985

OMG! Get out while the gettin is good. You deserve a life, a happy life! Let her torture someone else!


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## manslave

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll give some insight into my relationship by posting what happened the night I wrote the first post.

Valentine's Day is usually pretty special for us, but just a week before this Valentine's Day my wife angrily shredded a portrait I had made for her last Valentine's Day... Needless to say, I was really struggling to feel romantic and didn't even want to do anything.

Regardless, I made reservations for us to go to a resort together for the evening at a classy place with a five course meal high in the Rockies. But, my wife was angry at me all day (for reasons I have since forgotten) and I was busy with work and school until the afternoon. 

The very second I walked out of class she angrily asked me if I had gotten her a flower. I had planned to do the card/flower thing before going to the resort, but I wasn't too happy about being accosted the moment I walk out of class. I told her that I had made reservations at a resort, which she apparently didn't think was good enough.

At home she was bawling and accused me of not loving her. She said that she had seen girls all over the university with flowers (I didn't see any, oddly enough) and that the reservation meant nothing because it was for both of us and Valentine's is the woman's day. I asked her if she had gotten me anything and she said no, because it was the woman's day. So, later on I went to get her some roses and a card in preparation for going to the resort together. At the store I was a bit surprised to see so many women buying a rose and card for their husbands... I was a bit jealous to be perfectly honest, thinking that none of those women thought of Valentine's as "the woman's day". 

Anyway, I gave her the flowers and card and wanted to go to the resort but was given the "are you bleeping kidding" look and told "there is no way I'm going out like this, I'm a mess, people will know I've been crying." 

So, I spent the rest of the night alone in the living room... haha As pathetic as that sounds, it was actually a welcome moment of peace and quiet. She still isn't talking to me, and insists that I am the one giving her the silent treatment (even though I'm the one trying to talk to her, funny that) which has actually been very nice.

Strangely, she has been working a lot these last few days. I'm not sure if it's her way of getting out of house chores or if she is making other plans. Either way, I'll enjoy the silence while I can!

Edit: I literally just finished typing this when she came and told me that she's working all these hours (which she voluntarily picked up) and it's not fair that I'm relaxing on my weekend. She thinks I should go do our laundry. :smthumbup:


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## richie33

Your wife has mental issues. What are you getting out of this marriage? You sound like your in jail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

ManSlave, I agree with Waking that you are describing symptoms of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- the verbal abuse, physical abuse, suicide threats, temper tantrums, rapid flips between loving you and hating you, always being "The Victim," blame-shifting, and inability to trust -- are classic traits of BPD. 

Of course, you are not able to diagnose your W's issues. That is, you cannot determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can do that. You nonetheless are fully capable of spotting the red flags for BPD if you take time to learn what warning signs to look for. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, icy withdrawal, and temper tantrums.


manslave said:


> She cries like a child.... Her tears are followed the next day with the silent treatment and the cold shoulder.


BPDers carry an enormous amount of anger and shame that has been present since early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of the anger that is already there. When that happens, the BPDer (i.e., person with strong BPD traits) will usually "act out" by throwing hissy fits and temper tantrums and verbally abusing you. Sometimes, however, they will punish you with passive aggressive remarks, icy withdrawal, and the "silent treatment," as you say.


> She is very loving when we aren't going through hell .... I know that she loves me, but I don't think she knows how to have a close and functional relationship with another human being.


If she has strong BPD traits, you are absolutely correct. BPDers typically experienced an emotional trauma before age five that caused their emotional development to freeze at the level of a four year old. This means that, if your W is a BPDer, she never learned the more mature methods of ego defense. She therefore is stuck with the primitive defenses available to young children. These include projection, denial, magical thinking, black-white thinking (i.e., "splitting"), and temper tantrums. She never learned how to exert better control over her emotions, how to do self soothing, or how to intellectually challenge her intense feelings (instead of accepting them as accurate reflections of reality).


> I'll say "let's sit down and talk about last night" which is usually met with a terse "there's nothing to talk about," or "you want to talk now? get lost!"


BPDers generally are not interested in finding solutions or compromises. Instead, they want to create drama.


> She becomes angry if I do the same to her.


It is often said that BPDers usually have a "double standard," with one standard applying to them and another to everyone else. That view, however, greatly understates the problem. The reality is that, because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they usually have no consistent standard for themselves or for anyone else. Instead, the standard will periodically change, depending on what mood they are in at the time.


> I hate being in a relationship where I resort to such a petty and childish tactic only to make a point...


If you've been living with a BPDer for 5 years, you would have to be super-human to avoid picking up some of her behaviors during the heated fights. This problem is so common that the ex-partners and spouses have given it a name: "picking up fleas."


> She sometimes threatens to kill herself.


My BPDer exW did that too, as a way of controlling me. She started off by walking to a nearby tall bridge, knowing that I was following protectively behind. When I stopped following her, she stopped going to the bridge. Instead, she started going to a nearby subway platform, where she would call me, saying she was going to jump in front of the next train. Then she would hang up. When I stopped running down to the subway platform, she stopped doing that too.


> I just don't know how to avoid being manipulated, and at times I'm not sure whether I am being manipulated or not.


If she has only strong BPD traits, you likely are seeing strong controlling behavior, not true manipulation. BPDers typically are far too reactive and opportunistic to be any good at manipulation. I say this because manipulation -- to be effective -- usually requires careful planning and flawless execution. It therefore is a trait that is usually seen in narcissists and sociopaths, both of which are emotionally stable enough to be very skillful at manipulation.

This is not to say that your W cannot be manipulative. Rather, I am simply saying that -- if she is good at it -- the manipulation you are seeing likely is a narcissistic trait she has, not a BPD trait. Indeed, most people having strong BPD traits also have strong traits of one or two other PDs like narcissism or Antisocial PD (i.e., sociopathic traits).


> We no longer have sex even though we're young.


With BPDers, what typically happens is that you get the most passionate sex of your lifetime during the courtship period and then, soon after the wedding is over, the sex goes off a cliff. It seems like they have done "bait and switch." But it only seems that way. 

Actually, BPDers typically thoroughly enjoy the sex during the courtship and are not just trying to deceive their partners. The infatuation they have holds their two fears at bay, allowing them to enjoy intimacy with abandon. Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, the fears return -- which is why a BPDer will eventually feel suffocated and engulfed by the intimacy.


> my wife was angry at me all day (for reasons I have since forgotten).


If she is a BPDer, she likely has forgotten the reasons too. Because BPDers feel engulfed during intimacy, they will create fights -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away. The issues are so minor -- if not imaginary -- that neither partner will remember what it was days later.


> I do the dishes, the vacuuming, take care of the cat, do all of the laundry....


It was the same in my household. As soon as we were married, my BPDer exW stopped cleaning, stopped doing my laundry, and stopped cooking me meals. Of course, this is what happens when a man marries a woman having the emotional development of a four year old.


> I have physiological symptoms like eyelid twitch, and I grind my teeth at night.


Divorce, of course, is the most effective remedy. Until then, I suggest you ask your doctor for a prescription for 25 mg of Zoloft (which is the smallest available dose). Break the pill in half and take that half-pill once a day. Your eye twitching likely will be gone in two or three days. I had the same problem and found that remedy to work like a charm.


> When I've been subjected to an assault from her ...I would grab her by the wrists and tell her not to hit me. She would then accuse me of assaulting her because I grabbed her wrists...


That's exactly how so many spouses of BPDer wives end up in jail. Because the BPDers are always convinced they are "The Victim," they are looking for continual validation of that false self image. Of course, the ultimate validation -- i.e., the equivalent of a PhD in victim-hood -- is to have the husband arrested on a bogus charge and to see him found guilty when it goes to court. 

At the end of my 15 year marriage, for example, my exW was in such a terrible rage that she was chasing me room to room. I ultimately took refuge behind a bedroom door that had no lock. When she started to destroy the door (which I was trying to close), I pushed her away from the door. She tripped while stepping backward and fell down. That's all it takes to be arrested in this State. So she called the police and had me thrown into jail.


> We can't talk about our problems, because my wife explodes when she is even slightly criticized.


If she is a BPDer, you will NEVER be able to rationally discuss your problems. Catching her "in a calm mood" doesn't help at all because, with a BPDer, she is always just 10 seconds away from explosive anger. That is, no matter how calm and loving she is, any attempt to discuss a sensitive matter will trigger an immediate release of her rage. You will get the same exact response, of course, whenever you take a toy away from any four year old.


> I have sometimes thought about charting our fights with my wife's menstrual cycle because it seems like our worst fights are around her ovulation and the end of her period which leads me to wonder how much of what is going on is hormonal.


Hormones can cause a temporary flareup of BPD traits. Yet, if your W has a lifelong pattern of strong BPD traits, they would be persistent. Typically, the traits start appearing strongly at puberty. They disappear entirely only during the infatuation period during courtship. Following the wedding, the fights typically occur every week or two, with the rages usually lasting about five hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). 

Moreover, the very WORST fights usually happen immediately following the very BEST of times. This occurs because, during an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together, a BPDer will start feeling engulfed and suffocated -- as though she is disappearing and being taken over by your strong personality. To protect her fragile ego, her subconscious will create a fight out of thin air to push you away. At a conscious level, she truly does believe that the source of her anger is the absurd allegation coming out of her mouth.


> She has some deep seated issues but refuses to see a therapist on her own.


Narcissists are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they do not realize that their false self image is false. In contrast, BPDers are painfully aware that the false self image is fake. They therefore usually have a vague awareness that something is wrong with them or is missing. Yet, because they are filled with so much shame and self loathing, it is too painful for them to become very self aware about it. Their subconscious minds therefore protect them by projecting the blame and painful feelings onto their spouses. It therefore is rare for a high functioning BPDer to be willing to seek therapy -- and rarer still for one to remain in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> Sadly, my wife seems to sharpen her skills at therapy and uses things the counselor says in a negative way back at home.


If she is a BPDer, MC likely will be a waste of time and money. The reason is that her issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Indeed, teaching communication skills to an untreated BPDer can actually make her behavior worse by giving her new tools with which to control you.


> I tell my wife how much I love her two, three, even four times a day!


If she is a BPDer, she is incapable of believing you. Until she learns how to love herself and stop the self loathing, she will be unable to believe she is lovable to anyone.


> I'm reliable, dependable, responsible, I work hard, and yet my wife is still not satisfied. What is wrong with this picture?


Nothing. Specifically, nothing is wrong with the picture if she is a BPDer. That is exactly how a BPDer is expected to behave. BPDers have such a bottomless pit of neediness that it is impossible to satisfy them or to build up a store of good will on which you can later draw during the bad times. Trying to build up such a store of appreciation is as futile as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It will all be washed aside by the next tide of emotions flooding through her mind. That is, you may as well be trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. This is why, with BPDers, it's always "What have you done for me lately?"


> Am I crazy to keep doing this?


No, but "crazy" is exactly how you should be feeling if you've been living with a BPDer for five years. Of the several dozen disorders listed in the Diagnostic Manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds.


> Is this even fixable?


If your W is a BPDer, it certainly is unfixable by YOU. Moreover, it is extremely unlikely she will be willing to stay in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a difference in her behavior. Although there are many excellent treatment programs available, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to take advantage of such programs. 

Moreover, when you insist on her attending therapy, she likely will only play mind games with the therapist -- as my exW did in weekly sessions with six different psychologists over a 15 year period. Unless the BPDer really wants the therapy badly, it will be of no help. It only works if she has a strong and persistent desire for it to work.

I therefore encourage you to see YOUR OWN psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. When BPD is a strong possibility, you cannot rely on your W's therapist to tell you the name of her disorder, because therapists usually are loath to tell the BPDer, much less the husband, what the disorder is called (for the BPDer's own protection). Hence, even if your W does agree to see a therapist, it is very unlikely you will be told the name of her disorder if it is BPD.

I also suggest that, while you are waiting for an appointment, you read about BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. Importantly, I don't know whether your W has most BPD traits at a strong level. I've never even met the young lady. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot any strong BPD traits (i.e., red flags) that are present. 

An easy place to start reading is my description of these traits in my post in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Moreover, there are many other TAM members -- like Waking -- who have much experience with typical BPDer behavior. Take care, ManSlave.


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## manslave

Wow, Uptown, thank you so much for your long and thought out response, I hadn't expected such an insightful and accurate post!

You mentioned that something might have happened to freeze her emotional development at a young age. My wife has mentioned to me in the past that she thinks her father abused her when she was around five. In subsequent conversations she said it was 'probably' just a dream, but other times she says she'd simply rather not open Pandora's Box. She doesn't want her mother to find out and destroy her family, or to have to relive those demons in the event it wasn't a dream. 

When she was eight or nine she had to see a therapist because she felt overwhelming shame and guilt which she blamed on her Catholic upbringing. 

In her teens she and her brother had a violent relationship. She tells me that her brother was the violent one, but then she told me that she had to live with her grandmother... I asked why she had to leave and she told me that it was for her safety. Something about that never made much sense to me. 

In a recent trip to her family home, she and her sister had a terrible fight (which, from what I could tell, was largely the doing of her sister surprisingly). Her brothers took her sister's side. When I asked them why, they told me that I didn't know what my wife was like... 

My wife left home at a fairly young age to study here in the United States. She graduated at 16, top of her class. She told me that when she left home she didn't cry. 

Sadly, she seems to love only the people she is away from. When she was living with her family for a year due to immigration issues a while back, she loved and missed me intensely and had lots of issues (especially with her father). Now that she's back here, she has issues with me and loves and misses her family intensely, as if they could do no wrong.

While studying here in the United States she lived with her sponsors (before we met). They were obligated financially to support, shelter, and feed her for the duration of her studies. They asked her to move out less than two years into her studies, though they are still very amicable towards her, but I wonder if there was something to that which I don't know about. I felt bad for her, and we were dating by then, so I let her live with me. I asked only that she pay $100 per month when she could afford it to save her from paying much more living in the dorms. Not only did she fail to pay more than a couple of times (when I really made it an issue), I later found out that she had nearly $10,000 she'd saved in her bank account while I was $1,500 in debt to my roommate... I guess I should have seen it all then, but I was young, stupid, and in love.

I have read through some other sites which list BPD traits, and on one in particular I remember that of the 15 traits they listed, she had 10. The site claimed that having 2 or more was an indicator of BPD. 

Is BPD treatable? The trouble would be getting her into therapy... I once nearly convinced her a couple of years ago, but she started to cry and told me that I deserved someone better, who wasn't broken, didn't have issues and didn't hurt me. It breaks my heart that she could be suffering because of something that her father did to her, but I know that there's nothing that I can do about it. I am a bit skeptical about therapy too because I that many therapists consider BPD to be the "death-sentence" of psychological disorders. Is this true though?

Edit: I just read through the thread you linked to Uptown (I'll follow the other two that you linked in that post tomorrow). Most of what that person described and most of your responses apply strongly to my wife. Now my feeling that I might be crazy has, much to my dismay, been replaced by a feeling of deep sadness and empathy for my wife. I know I can't fix her, or help her, but I can't help but feel bad that she's all alone in this country, away from her family and everything she knows, and I may not have the ability to continue on with her anymore.

My biggest fear, because you mention that BPDers are very nasty and vindictive during divorce (which is exactly what I have been afraid of) is that she can take advantage of the fact that I am now her legal sponsor here in the US. This means that I am obligated to support her at 125% above the poverty line unless one of the following conditions is met:

1. One of us dies
2. She works for 10 solid years (40 quarters)
3. She abandons her greencard or naturalizes

But, she would have to go through a lot of legal proceedings to ensure that the contract is enforced I believe. State courts usually ignore the contract, but she could push it in federal court. Is there anyone on these forums who is familiar with immigration law? I have been told on an immigration forum that it is highly unlikely she would succeed in court, but that it has happened, and I have virtually 0 income now as we're both grad students living off of student loans...


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## Uptown

manslave said:


> Wow, Uptown, thank you so much for your long and thought out response.


ManSlave, I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information useful. However, the hard task -- i.e., locating your thread among the hundreds of new ones -- was done by Waking. I had overlooked your thread when you started it last Tuesday. But I regularly do searches on the terms "Uptown" and "borderline" and was able to catch the red flags that Waking left for me in her post above. Thank you, Waking!


> Her brothers ...told me that I didn't know what my wife was like.


My exW's two sisters had both given me the same warning before I married her, but I ignored it. All three of the sisters had been sexually abused and emotionally abused by their dad in childhood. All three of them exhibit strong BPD traits.


> Sadly, she seems to love only the people she is away from.


Yes, that is so sad. When a child is raised by an emotionally unavailable parent, her notion of "being loved" is that the love and affection is always held just out of arm's reach. Moreover, because her self image is so fragile, experiencing intense love and intimacy is a frightening thing for her -- causing her to feel like she is losing her individuality and disappearing into you. The result is that sustained intimacy is so uncomfortable that it is impossible to heal a BPDer by loving her. Trying to do so is as counter-productive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.


> When she was living with her family for a year due to immigration issues a while back, she loved and missed me intensely and had lots of issues (especially with her father). Now that she's back here, she has issues with me and loves and misses her family intensely, as if they could do no wrong.


Yes, my BPDer exW was exactly that way too.


> The site claimed that having 2 or more [behavioral traits] was an indicator of BPD.


No, a person must have at least 5 of the 9 BPD traits -- at a strong and persistent level -- to be diagnosed as "having BPD." Those 9 traits are listed in the sidebar at Kathy Batesel's excellent article about BPDers at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.


> Is BPD treatable?


Yes, here in the USA, there are excellent treatment programs all over the country. It cannot be cured, however. The treatment programs teach BPDers how to better regulate their emotions, how to do self soothing, and how to intellectually challenge their intense feelings.


> The trouble would be getting her into therapy.


Yes, that is a big hurdle. Moreover, as I said above, it is even harder to get a high functioning BPDer to STAY in therapy. Further, even if you pull that off, the therapy will be a total waste of money if the BPDer is not strongly motivated -- on her own -- to work hard in the therapy. I spent a small fortune on 15 years of therapy for my exW -- including six psychologists and several MCs -- and it didn't even make a dent in her behavioral problems. Not one dent.


> I am a bit skeptical about therapy too because I that many therapists consider BPD to be the "death-sentence" of psychological disorders. Is this true though?


That is an ugly, unnecessarily hurtful way to describe the situation. It reminds me of therapist Shari Schreiber's chilling statement that you have a better chance flying to the moon while strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.

The reality is that it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength necessary to remain in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference. I say "high functioning" because, if your W is a BPDer, she almost certainly is high functioning nearly all the time. Otherwise, you would have not dated her, much less married her.


> She started to cry and told me that I deserved someone better, who wasn't broken, didn't have issues and didn't hurt me.


Those rare instances -- where a BPDer will openly acknowledge that she has serious issues and will apologize -- are called "moments of clarity." In my 15 years of marriage, I witnessed that perhaps five times. Sadly, it rarely has any lasting effect whatsoever. Within a day or two, you will be unable to tell that the brief period of self awareness ever happened at all.


> My biggest fear, because you mention that BPDers are very nasty and vindictive during divorce (which is exactly what I have been afraid of) is that she can take advantage of the fact that I am now her legal sponsor here in the US.


If your W has strong BPD traits, you have good reason to be concerned about the divorce process. It likely will get nasty very quickly. I therefore offer several suggestions.

As an initial matter, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions of her having strong BPD traits. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

Second, if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ Both books are written by the same author.

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful to you is the "Leaving" board, where you will find hundreds of stories just like yours and will find lots of good tips about dealing with the ugly divorce process.

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's article, which I mentioned above.

Fifth, I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Because you are still a student at the university, you may be able to see a psychologist at little or no cost.

Sixth, I suggest you read Shari Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. It explains how codependents get to be that way during childhood. I mention "codependency" because anyone who has been dating a BPDer for 8 years almost certainly has strong traits of codependency, as I do. 

Significantly, this does NOT mean that you and I have a mental disorder. Codependency is not even mentioned in the APA's diagnostic manual. It does mean, however, that you are at great risk -- after divorcing your W -- of running right into the arms of another woman just like her. We caregivers tend to walk right past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us and makes us feel like knights on a white horse. If the Schreiber article rings a bell and you want a good book on that subject, I suggest _Codependent No More._ 

Finally, please don't forget those of us here on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


----------



## Shaggy

Manslave

A couple of other things you really need to watch out for. Look at her pasts, she's a jumper and a user, as a way of survival. When she's worn out her welcome one place, she quickly latches onto a new source of support and funding and goes about using it. Her and her survival is above all other priorities. Being the victim in her mind also entirely justifies any and all moral quandaries normal people would face.

So if she believes you have caught on do not be surprised that she empties banks accounts, sells your things, or that she suddenly finds a guy who is he soulmate. BPDers are the favorite gf of white knight types , and BPD girls seem really really good at picking them out too.

So don't be surprised if she gets a bf and trashes you to him.


----------



## doureallycare2

Uptown said:


> Second, if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ Both books are written by the same author.
> 
> Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful to you is the "Leaving" board, where you will find hundreds of stories just like yours and will find lots of good tips about dealing with the ugly divorce process.
> 
> Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's article, which I mentioned above.
> 
> 
> Sixth, I suggest you read Shari Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. It explains how codependents get to be that way during childhood. I mention "codependency" because anyone who has been dating a BPDer for 8 years almost certainly has strong traits of codependency, as I do.
> 
> Significantly, this does NOT mean that you and I have a mental disorder. Codependency is not even mentioned in the APA's diagnostic manual. It does mean, however, that you are at great risk -- after divorcing your W -- of running right into the arms of another woman just like her. We caregivers tend to walk right past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us and makes us feel like knights on a white horse. If the Schreiber article rings a bell and you want a good book on that subject, I suggest _Codependent No More._
> QUOTE]
> 
> Uptown: Wow what an excellent response, I just accidently fell on to manslaves thread and didn’t even have the foggiest of what to say to him. You may have actually even helped me get some perspective. I have never thought my stbxh could have BPD but I do know he is a narcissist, when we were in MC years ago the therapist told me that. Some recent conversations I’ve had with him lately and his mood swings,( one moment I can have everything in the D, the next he's moving where no one would be able to find him) has really had me reeling in confusion I just never know which side of him I’m going to see and I realize it’s how my whole marriage was. The kids and I always walked on egg shells around him, I just took it as manipulation or that he was abusive.
> 
> I am going to get the book above that you recommend for co-dependents because after 36 years I very much was and am. I don’t want to try and put the marriage back together but hopefully it will help me and dealing with him through the D process. Thank you..
> 
> Manslave,
> 
> Good luck, It sounds like you came to the right forum to get some real answers to help you in the tuff decisions you’re going to have to make.


----------



## manslave

Hello all, 

I came back to this thread periodically to remind myself why I left my marriage. For people like me, it's easy to forget your former partner's contribution to the problems, and what they did to drive you to the edge. I finally had enough, and we were officially divorced earlier this year. In the beginning it was a mutual decision after a terrible fight. At the end, she said "you are the love of my life, I don't want to lose you." I stayed strong and haven't looked back. 

I am now with an amazing woman I met a short while ago (3 months). We don't know each other super well yet, but so far it has been a night and day difference. No more walking on egg shells, no more gaslighting, hell, so far, no friction whatsoever. Furthermore, my new partner graduated from an ivy league school, is a surgeon, and is absolutely brilliant. We have great conversations, and she is capable of debating and even disagreeing without fighting. I simply can't imagine her locking herself in a bathroom and threatening to kill herself as my ex used to. I can't imagine her hitting me on the ears, spraying me in the face with cleaning products, or shoving me either. 

I know it's still early, but I'd say that 3 months into a relationship allows you to make some judgments about someone. 

For anyone who may read this eventually and who may find themself in a situation similar to mine, all I can say is this: get out. I hemmed and hawed for years, unwilling to break my commitment to a woman who was ruining me, and in the end it was the best possible decision for both of us. She has moved onto someone new, and so have I. 

A few important things I did before dating again was to read through the gettinbetter resources. I also saw a therapist who assured me after just a few sessions that I am not crazy, and that I am a perfectly normal guy. Lastly, I learned how to date properly. I think that a lack of dating experience and not understanding male / female gender roles in relationships hurt me a lot because it allowed me to fall in with (and stay with) someone who was an absolute emotional terrorist. My inability to leave was compounded by the fact that I didn't know how valuable I was. Once I got out and dating and was able to date 3 or 4 different women each week my confidence grew, and so did my self worth. Now that I am with a woman it's because I want to be with her, not because I feel 'lucky' to be her partner.

I would like to say thanks to everyone who responded, and especially to Uptown for such insightful posts and the resources you recommended. I also have to say thanks to talkaboutmarriage for being such a great resource itself, and for keeping threads like these around long enough that others may refer to them, or as was my case, the OP may have some textual record of their marital struggles and the reasons they may have decided to divorce, break up, separate, etc.


----------



## Uptown

Manslave, thanks for returning to give us an update. What a pleasant surprise! I am pleased to hear that you successfully walked away from that toxic marriage and now are actively dating in your community.



manslave said:


> We were officially divorced earlier this year. In the beginning it was a mutual decision after a terrible fight. At the end, she said "you are the love of my life, I don't want to lose you."


Likewise, my BPDer exW did everything she could to push me away -- having me thrown into jail and then getting a R/O for 18 months -- but claimed at the end she did not want me to go. Specifically, at the D hearing, the judge asked her whether she wanted the D given that the case was proceeding pursuant to my exW's filing for D. My exW said, "No, your honor, I really don't want a divorce." The judge, who knew how she had been locking me out of our home for a year and a half, simply rolled her eyes and proceeded to declare the D final.



> I know it's still early, but I'd say that 3 months into a relationship allows you to make some judgments about someone.


Yes, you can make some judgments that early. Keep in mind, however, that BPDers and NPDers typically don't exhibit their dark side until 4 to 6 months into the relationship because their infatuation over you holds their fears at bay. When the infatuation fades, those fears return and you will start triggering their anger. During that courtship period, the behavior that is a warning sign for BPDers is the rapid speed with which they "fall in love" and start love bombing you -- and liking everyone and anything you enjoy.



> A few important things I did before dating again was to read through the gettinbetter resources.


I like Shari Schreiber's description of waif BPDers and of us excessive caregivers. Her description of regular BPDers, however, confuses them with narcissists and sociopaths. That is, Schreiber mistakenly treats those three groups like they are the same thing. 

Granted, a portion of BPDers do suffer from co-occurring NPD or ASPD. But many BPDers do not. It therefore is a great disservice to the BPDers for Schreiber to be describing them as behaving like deceitful spiders that spin webs of manipulation to trap us innocent caregivers. That behavior is characteristic of narcissists and sociopaths, not BPDers.


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## NotLikeYou

Hey, now, let's all take a deep breath and step away from the Divorce-o-matic.

Sure, Manslave has to check every box from "crazy" to "likes the abuse" to stay in this marriage, but I think people should keep a couple of things in mind before they counsel divorce.

First of all, its important to remember that Manslave's purpose in life MAY be to serve as an example to others.

Second of all, let's face it- he is keeping one seriously bad person out of circulation by staying married to her. If she were single, well, the next guy she met might be normal, at least at first.

Manslave has not only put up with it for years now, he's so whupped that he can say that "things are good 66% of the time."

I vote "stay married."


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## Uptown

NotLikeYou said:


> Manslave has not only put up with it for years now, he's so whupped that he can say that "things are good 66% of the time." I vote "stay married."


NLY, Manslave has already divorced her. You may want to read his last post.


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## EleGirl

Leading Man said:


> I like your point about it takes two to argue. I've heard this from many people. ...... I've come to disagree with both. Nobody's perfect, but some dysfunctional relationships are pretty one-sided.


It does take two to argue. That is a fact. 

Person A can start arguing. If person B starts trying to explain, defend themselves or argue back.. then there are two people arguing. 

Or 

Person A can start arguing. Person B can get up and walk out, leave the scene, etc. Now Person A is left there with no one to argue with. 

The statement is not that it takes two to start an argument.. it's that it takes two to have an argument. It means that it takes two people standing there going at it as opposed to one person left to deal with their own nonsense on their own.


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## EleGirl

Manslave,

I just realized that this thread popped up now because you are coming back with a status update.

We seldom get to hear what happened to people. I appreciate you doing so.

I'm glad to hear that you are doing so much better now!!


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## Happilymarried25

Glad to hear you are doing well. It's interesting that she has found someone new too. While she does sound a bit crazy at times I think that it wasn't just her fault that the marriage failed, you are at fault too, hopefully you aren't carrying your bad behavior into your next relationship. Remember when you two first met you both were calm and happy otherwise you would not have gotten married.


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## NotLikeYou

Uptown said:


> NLY, Manslave has already divorced her. You may want to read his last post.


Argh!

Well.

Congratulations, Manslave.

I can say with complete sincerity that I am not surprised that your life is happier now.

I hope things continue to get better for you!


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## manslave

Hello all,

I am checking back in to give another progress report. My new girlfriend and I are beyond 6 months now and still going strong! We have had exactly 0 fights, which I didn't think was possible!! She is a very busy surgeon, and I am a very busy graduate student, but we have taken a few trips together so far and had absolutely no issues. She is madly in love with me, and sends me loving texts between surgeries every single day. What's more, I am madly in love with her and can see myself growing old with her. I have met her entire family now (she flew me out with her to meet them) and they are some of friendliest salt of the earth people I've ever met. 

I am still amazed at the difference between this and my last relationship. We communicate well, never fight, disagree on a few things but do so without arguing, and we have too many shared interests to name here. I really think I got lucky with this one! Brilliant, beautiful, and one of the genuinely sweetest people I've ever met all wrapped up into one human being! My grades have gone up (I am looking at a 4.0 this semester) and I am doing well in every other aspect of my life as well (I am lifting the heaviest weights I ever have, and have plans to play my instrument again which I abandoned during my last relationship). 



Happilymarried25 said:


> Glad to hear you are doing well. It's interesting that she has found someone new too. While she does sound a bit crazy at times I think that it wasn't just her fault that the marriage failed, you are at fault too, hopefully you aren't carrying your bad behavior into your next relationship. Remember when you two first met you both were calm and happy otherwise you would not have gotten married.


Unfortunately, she is dating a much older man (who looks a lot like her father and isn't much younger ironically) and I believe is likely just taking advantage of her. He moved into her apartment (formerly our apartment) shortly after I moved out. He is going through a divorce and I believe they are keeping their relationship a secret (they aren't friends on Facebook even) and she was shocked when I asked if she was dating this particular person one day when I saw her on campus. 

My ex has gained 25lbs I would estimate, and her grades have seemingly slipped. She was a 3.8 - 3.9 GPA student when we were together, but she skips the class we are in together 50% of the time and when I see her grades on assignments as I'm thumbing through the class pile to get to mine she has 15/20 and 16/20 which makes me sad. It used to be me getting 15 or 16 out of 20, and her getting 20/20 and now it's the other way around. I feel like she is likely on a downward spiral, and my inclination is to rescue her, but I know that is exactly what got me into that mess in the first place. I want nothing to do with her emotionally, but I can't help but feel bad to see someone with so much promise and who was such a high achiever slipping so much. The man she is seeing has 4 children, and is 42 (she is 25). The other day we talked briefly after class and I asked her "are you happy?" She said yes, and I hope she was being truthful, but I suspect she was not. He moved into her apartment and his wife has kept the house. I worry that he is just using my ex because she is vulnerable and alone, but I know there is nothing I should or even could do about that now. 

I was worried about carrying bad behavior into my next relationship which is why I did therapy at the end of my marriage. The therapist agrees that I have some traits of codependency, but was quick to point out that is not an actual condition / diagnosis nor is it a bad thing and that without such a "noble" trait there would be no police officers, soldiers, or firefighters. During the third session my therapist said to me: "I don't think you have any reason to continue with therapy unless you simply want someone to talk to. You are a perfectly normal guy and I think that getting out of your marriage was a good thing for you." I asked him if I had any behaviors I might need to correct before entering another relationship and he said no. I asked him how long I should wait to start dating, and he said "as soon as you feel ready."

When we first met we were happy, but not calm. My ex exhibited the behaviors which ultimately drove us apart early on. Reading back over old letters and emails I saw the patterns which became all too familiar during my marriage and they appeared far earlier than I had realized or remembered. She froze me out for a couple of days after our third date and then wrote a letter apologizing and stating that she would try not to give me the silent treatment anymore. This is what I meant with my last post. It is important to date around, get a sense of yourself and what you are looking for as well as what you deserve, and only then should you consider becoming serious with someone.


----------



## manslave

EleGirl said:


> It does take two to argue. That is a fact.
> 
> Person A can start arguing. If person B starts trying to explain, defend themselves or argue back.. then there are two people arguing.
> 
> Or
> 
> Person A can start arguing. Person B can get up and walk out, leave the scene, etc. Now Person A is left there with no one to argue with.
> 
> The statement is not that it takes two to start an argument.. it's that it takes two to have an argument. It means that it takes two people standing there going at it as opposed to one person left to deal with their own nonsense on their own.


I was almost always Person B in your second scenario. What usually happened was as follows: 

My ex would be upset about something and I would try to resolve the issue. She would attack me, and after a sustained attack I would leave to diffuse the situation. She would then lock me out of the house and block the door so I could not get back inside. If I did manage to get back inside she would freeze me out mostly but occasionally accost me as I went about my business in the living room or wherever I might be. She might come over and yank the pen out of my hand as I was writing, close my laptop as I was typing, or stand in front of the television as I was watching. When I would attempt to walk away from her she would physically block my exit. During one of our last fights, I tried to get up from the couch and she physically prevented me from standing. I am much larger and stronger, so I could of course overpower her, but the last time I did that I was charged with domestic violence, so I was pretty much helpless and just had to sit there as she tormented me. I disagree that it takes two to argue. When one person holds the other captive, they can argue their side all they want no matter what the other person does.


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## Uptown

Manslave, what a wonderful surprise to see that you've returned -- once again after a substantial absence -- to give us an update and to share what you've learned with other members and lurkers! I'm very happy for you that your grades are improving and you've gotten into a healthy, loving relationship with the young lady surgeon. You've sure come a long, long way since first starting this thread back in Feb 2013.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

Oh my gosh. 
She abuses you emotionally, manipulates you, hits you, is passive-aggressive, refuses to communicate. You're miserable and it is NOT going to get better - it will get worse. Ask yourself if you are willing to live the rest of your life this way. Nobody else can make a decision for you - but if you're here on this forum, then you know something is wrong with your marriage and it's making you suffer.

Please, do not bring any children in to this relationship.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

manslave said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I came back to this thread periodically to remind myself why I left my marriage. For people like me, it's easy to forget your former partner's contribution to the problems, and what they did to drive you to the edge. I finally had enough, and we were officially divorced earlier this year. In the beginning it was a mutual decision after a terrible fight. At the end, she said "you are the love of my life, I don't want to lose you." I stayed strong and haven't looked back.
> 
> I am now with an amazing woman I met a short while ago (3 months). We don't know each other super well yet, but so far it has been a night and day difference. No more walking on egg shells, no more gaslighting, hell, so far, no friction whatsoever. Furthermore, my new partner graduated from an ivy league school, is a surgeon, and is absolutely brilliant. We have great conversations, and she is capable of debating and even disagreeing without fighting. I simply can't imagine her locking herself in a bathroom and threatening to kill herself as my ex used to. I can't imagine her hitting me on the ears, spraying me in the face with cleaning products, or shoving me either.
> 
> I know it's still early, but I'd say that 3 months into a relationship allows you to make some judgments about someone.
> 
> For anyone who may read this eventually and who may find themself in a situation similar to mine, all I can say is this: get out. I hemmed and hawed for years, unwilling to break my commitment to a woman who was ruining me, and in the end it was the best possible decision for both of us. She has moved onto someone new, and so have I.
> 
> A few important things I did before dating again was to read through the gettinbetter resources. I also saw a therapist who assured me after just a few sessions that I am not crazy, and that I am a perfectly normal guy. Lastly, I learned how to date properly. I think that a lack of dating experience and not understanding male / female gender roles in relationships hurt me a lot because it allowed me to fall in with (and stay with) someone who was an absolute emotional terrorist. My inability to leave was compounded by the fact that I didn't know how valuable I was. Once I got out and dating and was able to date 3 or 4 different women each week my confidence grew, and so did my self worth. Now that I am with a woman it's because I want to be with her, not because I feel 'lucky' to be her partner.
> 
> I would like to say thanks to everyone who responded, and especially to Uptown for such insightful posts and the resources you recommended. I also have to say thanks to talkaboutmarriage for being such a great resource itself, and for keeping threads like these around long enough that others may refer to them, or as was my case, the OP may have some textual record of their marital struggles and the reasons they may have decided to divorce, break up, separate, etc.


Wow, this is one post I've been so glad to read. It's awesome that you were able to end your marriage and lead a healthier, happier, much more peaceful life! It gives me hope. Thank you for sharing with us.


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## Shiksagoddess

You deserve to be happy. Thank you for your update and may your life continue to be rich and rewarding.

Manslave, I think you've emancipated yourself. You need a new handle.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Uptown, thank you also for posting all that you did about Borderline Personality Disorder. I think my husband suffers from it.  It would explain a lot, unfortunately.


----------



## manslave

Hello again everyone,

I thought I would drop in once more and give another update nearly 1 year since my last. 

I am still with the same amazing woman that I met well over one year ago now. We still have not had a single fight. I simply can't believe this is possible. We debate about things occasionally, mostly politics, but we have not yet had a fight. 

We have been ring shopping together and plan to propose sometime in the near future. I wake up every day wondering how I got so lucky with such a wonderful person. There is nothing about her which annoys me, and even if it did, I wouldn't care because she is such a terrific match for me. When I go to bed without her because she is saving people's lives on call I miss her, but I don't need her; more importantly perhaps, she also doesn't need me. 

My outlook on life has changed, my demeanor, my attitude, etc. I am still fundamentally the same person that I always was, but now there is no one keeping me from acting like the person I am. The shame I once felt about myself and my relationship is gone. I used to think that being in a relationship was just supposed to be difficult, and now I know better. My mother used to say "being in a relationship takes work, but it shouldn't be THIS hard..." to me when I was with my ex. 

My girlfriend and I have a home together, and moved across the country together. We both have fantastic jobs and very similar tastes and interests. She supports me in everything I do unequivocally and I do the same. 

We took an amazing trip to Africa together and went on safari. We have also traveled to no less than 10 states together and parts of Europe. Our vacations are, oddly, no more exciting than simply being together, which I think is a very good thing. I am as excited about spending the night with my girlfriend at a local restaurant, or even just relaxing with her on the couch, as I am to be in Paris with her. It sounds strange, but that is how much I enjoy simply being in her company. 

I have made new friends, far more than I thought could happen in just 1 year. I have also picked up old friendships. My new family is wonderful, and has welcomed my own family (and me) as their own.

If you are in a toxic relationship, get out. You may only roll a 3, but you could get lucky and roll a 6 like I did. Keep rolling that dice until you find the right person. But, do like I did and see a therapist to make sure that you are not the reason your relationships are turning out badly. 

Uptown, I still owe you a debt of gratitude. If not for your insight I may not have accepted that there was nothing I could do, and I may have stayed with my ex-wife until it destroyed me. I should also thank ******* which matched my girlfriend and I at 97% and was certainly not lying. 

Aside from my fantastic relationship I have to say that one of the best things that has happened to me is that I've made peace with my past and my ex. I genuinely wish her the best, and truly want her to be happy. I think I always wanted that, even shortly after we broke up, but now I've distanced myself more and no longer feel that her happiness requires me. I feel good knowing that some of her dreams are coming true and she is moving onwards and upwards, and so am I. Of course it helps that I have found such an amazing life myself. 

If anyone out there is struggling through a toxic relationship with someone who may have BPD, consider how much happier you may be without the torment and the guilt.


----------



## tech-novelist

I didn't have to read past the third paragraph to answer that question.

The answer, in case you're wondering, is "Yes, you would have been crazy to stay in that 'marriage'".

Congratulations on getting out!


----------



## Uptown

manslave said:


> We both have fantastic jobs and very similar tastes and interests. She supports me in everything I do unequivocally and I do the same.


Manslave, I'm happy to hear that you and the lady surgeon are still going strong! In addition to all the wonderful attributes you list for her, there is the decided advantage that -- should you slip on ice and break your leg -- she would be able to reset the bone and sew you back up, all without going to the ER.


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## EleGirl

Thanks so much for keeping us updated. We seldom get to find out what happens with people in the long run.

Your new life and new love sound amazing. I'm very happy for you.


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## Satya

I wish we could bronze your post and put up in the TAM Hall of Life Goes On or Life After Divorce. 

Everyone goes through different life phases. I can't picture my old life with my ex. I was a different person then, but with the same core. 

You're a different person now. All the best.


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## pan

Well now it just sounds like you're gloating...but I suppose you deserve that after what you went through. 

Though I am becoming concerned about my own relationship the more I read about BPD.


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## ChargingCharlie

Many kudos - you got out at the right time (before kids) and found a relationship that's mutually fulfilling. Keep it up and keep us updated.


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