# Research for next time



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

So here I am, single again.

While in the end sex wasn't the main reason we split, it was a big reason and caused a lot of tension in the relationship. I haven't been active around this forum much the past year but I was trying to apply some of the tips and suggestions I have gleaned from this site.

Needless to say they didn't work. I don't blame TAM, but you do need a partner who will not only listen but also be willing to put in some effort. If anything I have learned, it is there is no way if there is no will.

We are going through the divorce situation. We weren't married but were common law. Not a lot to sort through and thus far things are peaceful. We have agreed to end things as positive as possible and one week in, so far so good.

For me, I'm not interested in getting back into a relationship any time soon. I don't know when I will be but I'm figuring it'll be six months to a year before I put much effort into looking again. I'm to bummed out to be going through this again, and to have had sex as a key issue again (this is my second long-term relationship that has failed). 

The thing is, I thought this time I had learned sex wise from my first divorce. My ex-wife had almost no interest in sex after the first six months or so of our relationship. Was stupid of me to get married in the first place to be honest, and for more than just the sex issue.

After we split, I got into a relationship with my now ex-common law and I was clear that sex in a relationship was important to me. I thought we were on the same page but the sex dried up after and about two and half years in our sex life had gone from her almost begging for sex and a lot of variety to weeks without. 

I used TAM to vent, talk and try to learn but nothing I tried made much difference. She was willing to talk about our sex life issues, but she made it clear such talks were uncomfortable. While sometimes talks would lead to some improvement in the short-term, usually within a month the frequency would decrease a bit more overall. The variety meanwhile basically turned into PIV solely. Cowgirl, doggy style, oral, etc. were either off limits or almost off limits.

My concern for this section of TAM is how do you ensure sex is a priority that is taken seriously when discussing the relationship? I really don't want to get into another relationship, spend a few years together and watch as the frequency starts to die off. It is gutwrenching to get rejected over and over again, to watch as your partner goes from pulling your clothes off the moment you get in the door to you being able to tell how many days in a row you are guaranteed to get a no know matter what you do.

I'm 38, I don't want to play the field, I don't want to play games. I want someone who views sex as an integral part of a relationship and who doesn't act like its rude or painful to discuss our sex life. When I get back into the dating game down the line, how do I approach the topic, when do I and what questions do I ask. I am obviously a failure at this topic, I can't seem to get my partner to even think its an important aspect of a relationship, despite what they say early on. 

I want someone who wants to enjoy coming to bed with me, not make me feel like a chore. Its a heartache I don't want to go through a third time.

Sorry for the long ramble. I guess I'm asking and venting.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

“If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.”
― Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms 

Grow back strong!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

kingsfan said:


> ......She was willing to talk about our sex life issues, but she made it clear such talks were uncomfortable. While sometimes talks would lead to some improvement in the short-term, usually within a month the frequency would decrease a bit more overall. The variety meanwhile basically turned into PIV solely. Cowgirl, doggy style, oral, etc. were either off limits or almost off limits.
> 
> ....*how do you ensure sex is a priority that is taken seriously when discussing the relationship?* I really don't want to get into another relationship, spend a few years together and watch as the frequency starts to die off.
> 
> ......I don't want to play games. *I want someone who views sex as an integral part of a relationship and who doesn't act like its rude or painful to discuss our sex life*. When I get back into the dating game down the line, how do I approach the topic, when do I and what questions do I ask. I am obviously a failure at this topic, I can't seem to get my partner to even think its an important aspect of a relationship, despite what they say early on....


My 2 cents suggestions are first heal your own heart so that you aren't needy and co-dependent on a potential spouse for validation of your sexuality.

Second, be honest with girlfriends early in the relationship that you have had two failed relationships and are somewhat emotionally damaged goods, in that you don't want to repeat the same mistakes again. 

Third, do what the sex therapist who helped my wife and I do and that is talk about and visualize a happy future and discuss what that means to each of you. If over several years time your partner when you discuss your future tells you that they envision sex at retirement to be once a month to two months, you have an early warning and can get help from a sex therapist, before you get there. Taking about the future and what a happy marriage/relationship entails is a good way to make sure you are each communicating about sex and sexual needs.

Gottman's in their book the Art & Science of Love really believe in rituals that help in insuring that bonding takes place continuously in the relationship. That is things you do in the morning and at night each day that help the two of you bond emotionally to each other.

Good luck.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

kingsfan said:


> I'm 38, I don't want to play the field, I don't want to play games. I want someone who views sex as an integral part of a relationship and who doesn't act like its rude or painful to discuss our sex life. When I get back into the dating game down the line, how do I approach the topic, when do I and what questions do I ask. I am obviously a failure at this topic, I can't seem to get my partner to even think its an important aspect of a relationship, despite what they say early on.
> 
> I want someone who wants to enjoy coming to bed with me, not make me feel like a chore. Its a heartache I don't want to go through a third time.
> 
> Sorry for the long ramble. I guess I'm asking and venting.


I think that no matter how great the sex is when you are dating or first get married, it gets old after awhile. The real question is why does it get old? Is it the sex itself or is it something in the person/s personality that gets old and unattractive?
I think that complacency and entitlement breeds poor sex.

IMO I am not entitled to great sex, I have to earn it by being THE man my wife wants to f$ck. If you can find out who that man is, and are willing to BE that man, you will succeed.

Perhaps dating and early marriage is all a façade. When time goes by you then get reality which is not always attractive. If I can be the fantasy and the reality at once, I will have all the sex I can handle.


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## NorCalMan (Dec 14, 2011)

Learn from your past mistakes. If you want regular and hot sex then ... do not get married.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

The only way to know is to ask. If it is important to you ask early. You will never know until you ask. If you are afraid to ask, then it must not be important to you.
A very good source is one the No More Mr Nice Guy Forum. Here is a link:

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/showthread.php?25399-Showing-up-With-Your-Sexual-Agenda-Intact

Quite a few around here have a low opinion of Glover and his advice. Personally I think it is because they haven't actually read what he has to say, but that is another topic for another thread. Take from it what you like, but you will never get if you don't ask. You will end up lost and confused and right back where you started from the last two times.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Well, I guess the first thing is to avoid women who "feel uncomfortable" talking about sex!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

KF I totally agree with MJJEAN, if people are uncomfortable with talking about their sex lives then that can be a good indicator of future problems.

Now I will say this with the very best of intentions because having read your posts here for some years I feel for you. IMHO next time do not invest so much time into a relationship where you know your sex life is not as you would like it. You did come on here quite a while ago with complaints about the quality/quantity of your sex life. That in itself is not the problem but despite your internal "knowing" that it was not going to improve you hung on in there for a long time.

I wish you all the best on your journey.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

NorCalMan said:


> Learn from your past mistakes. If you want regular and hot sex then ... do not get married.


Good one. I love it.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Gettin married, and married sex is like wearing a new pair of shoes. They are great and wonderful, smell good, look good and everything at first. Then as you have them for a while, they become the standard old comfortable shoes. They are still your favorites, they just don't look the same, smell the same of feel the same. You still love them, just a new pair of shoes is better sometimes. 

I guess my point is nothing stays new forever. That newness is what makes sex so great. There is a science to the hormone levels released during early love, and new love. It fades with time and that usually takes place a few years after a marriage. But a marriage is not based soley on sex. Sure it helps but you have to have other qualities to keep you going strong in the marriage. 

In my opinion if you keep your marriage strong, you get along, and you treat each other with love (not sex) and understanding ...the sex will happen, and it can be tweaked along the way.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> KF I totally agree with MJJEAN, if people are uncomfortable with talking about their sex lives then that can be a good indicator of future problems.
> 
> Now I will say this with the very best of intentions because having read your posts here for some years I feel for you. IMHO next time do not invest so much time into a relationship where you know your sex life is not as you would like it. You did come on here quite a while ago with complaints about the quality/quantity of your sex life. That in itself is not the problem but despite your internal "knowing" that it was not going to improve you hung on in there for a long time.
> 
> I wish you all the best on your journey.


Well said Holland. Now, for full disclosure, a big reason I stayed it out longer than I should have was because children were involved in the relationship, but I do still accept your point. In hindsight, I should have left earlier as this was a bigger issuer for me and it wasn't going to get better.

Hence why I do no want to go down that road again.

Another poster said something about healing myself first, and I fully intend to. While it's hard to put a date on when you are healed -if you ever do heal fully- I figure I'll be on the sidelines for a year or so likely. I simply have to much other stuff to deal with currently and I do need to give myself time.

It's good to be back here Holland. People like yourself gave me some good advice, and I look forward to more of the same. I hope things are well for you as well!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> I think that no matter how great the sex is when you are dating or first get married, it gets old after awhile. The real question is why does it get old? Is it the sex itself or is it something in the person/s personality that gets old and unattractive?
> I think that complacency and entitlement breeds poor sex.


Agree with this fully.

I don't think these types of things are usually even sex-related at all, TBH. As Ump alludes to, it gets old, we get old, the whole thing gets old (and I'm not talking about age).

Sex is something that most people do regularly at the beginning of a relationship, and for good reason. This is the bonding stage.

Sex is also very much like anything else - when it's new, it's the greatest thing ever. Over time, it's decidedly less so for many people. When somebody picks up a new hobby, or tries a new sport and they realize they really enjoy it, they often put a lot of time and effort into it at first.

Every once in a while, that hobby or sport sticks for a lifetime. More often than not, it loses it's lustre eventually, to where it becomes a once-in-a-while thing to do, or worse, never again. Sometimes it gets boring, sometimes there's a bad experience that makes you less interested, or even want to quit.

The issue is that you or I don't know, and really have no way of knowing, which way our partners (or even ourselves) will go with things like this - until it happens.

My advice, such as it is, is to not give up. OP's next relationship may be with a partner who does the exact same thing, or maybe she'll maintain the sexual relationship throughout. Nobody knows, and there's no way of telling. It's (almost) always important at the beginning, so one can't tell if it'll dwindle naturally over time or not.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with what others have suggested. My own research and experience leads me to think that the following traits are key to a sustainable, good sex life: ability to talk about sex; enthusiasm for sex; frequency is well matched, even after 2 years; initiates sex a good portion of the time, and that continues even into and beyond year 2 of the relationship; is very comfortable with what are considered the normal range of activities such as oral and a wide variety of positions; if either of you have other specific strong wants (anal, toys, fetishes, etc.), then you can find some compromise; both communicate well, forgive easily, and want each other to be fulfilled and happy in all ways - not just for sex - and act in ways that support this; experimentation and simply changing things up with minor variations helps keep things fresh and exciting.

I also think that sexual desire starts long before you get to the bedroom, so how you treat each other the rest of the time leads to success or failure in the bedroom.

Finally, if there is any significant downgrade in any of the key traits (that aren't mutually agreeable), spend a little time to try to fix them, but move on quickly if you can't. Better to enjoy a couple of good years and then move on, than to continue a deteriorating sex life for a lifetime.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

I would like tag on and amplify what alexm is getting at, that you really are not going to be able to predict what your partner will do long term by looking at her behavior during the bonding stage. As you yourself point out things dried up after a few months in both relationships. Thus it must have been good, or at least good enough at one point to get you to commit to making things more permanent. While a simple answer is to choose wisely, that is probably not very helpful to you. I suspect you did make the best decision you could based on the information you had at the time.
Since the behavior of your partner is a variable that you can't control then the question is what to do?
Hard work, but I think I would look at my behavior in those relationships to see if there was something I was doing that made myself a less attractive or desirable partner as the relationship went on through time. Not always easy but probably is the only effective and fruitful thing you can do right now in response to your issue. You cant change the world but you can change yourself.
Good Luck


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> Agree with this fully.
> 
> I don't think these types of things are usually even sex-related at all, TBH. As Ump alludes to, it gets old, we get old, the whole thing gets old (and I'm not talking about age).
> 
> ...


I agree except for the fact that I believe stale, boring monogamous sex can be turned around. How else can I be having the best sex of my life after 24 years of marriage?

I believe the key is to deeply understand your spouse and what makes that person tick.

I am a very upfront and honest person. If I love you I will tell you. I don't hold back what I think or feel. This type of person will sexually bore my wife to death and that's exactly what happened. It took me the better part of 20 years to figure it out.

What my wife needs to be interested in sex is intrigue. Even 24 years in I cannot show her all my emotions and feelings about her. I have to keep her guessing. When the sex gets stale I back way off emotionally. The "I love you's" are few and far between. The touching stops. In order for her to be sexually excited for me she needs to know that there is a possibility that I am bored with her, that I may not completely love her, that I may simply pack up and leave one day. I must show her or make her believe that my life does not revolve around her.

I will be the first one to tell you that I think my doing this is immature and just plain silly. However, it's one of the only ways I have found to keep her interested and the sex new.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

You seemed to have learned the biggest 'trick' of all---which is: Be willing to walk. 


Also, you're thinking about this wrong, and thus, not giving yourself enough credit. 

In a relationship, we can only control our own actions. There is no guarantee that a partner will act the way we wish they would.

So the fact that you've had two relationships end where sexlessness played a big part is not such a tragedy. 

Sexlessness is a COMMON reason for a relationship to end (as you well know).

The worthwhile difference you find is in YOUR OWN SELF.

Ask:

Did I waste less time this relationship than my last?

Did I know what I really wanted out of life and make hard choices based upon this knowledge?

Etc, Etc...

If the answer is “Yes”, if you are materially changed in the way you ended this relationship compared to the last relationship------then you should think that you're at the same place you were then---even if the relationship is ending for some of the same reasons. 


And for your final Question:

My concern for this section of TAM is how do you ensure sex is a priority that is taken seriously when discussing the relationship?* 

Oh, BTW, there isn't a happy answer to this query---

There is absolutely NO WAY to ensure that a partner will love and prioritize sex in the same manner that you will for the entirety of the relationship. 

There are behaviors that encourage a woman's sexual interest and those that discourage it. But nothing that ensures it for good.

You ensure it's a priority through nothing else but your own CHOICES.

If it's a big priority to you in a relationship---DO NOT linger in relationships with a partner who does feel the same...or value her relationship enough with you to make it a priority. Love YOURSELF enough to leave.

And remember that ALL relationships are TRANSACTIONAL. 

We give certain stuff.

We expect to get certain stuff.

We are selfish little creatures, and denying this simple fact only leads to tremendous amount of repressed resentment. 

I have a feeling you lived with more repressed resentment in this last relationship than you'd like to own....

Like you alluded to in your title----just learn from this chapter and its pain----that's what we're here to do.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

A lot of repressed resentment yes. Far to much. I'm not afraid to own it though, can't improve things if you hold back.

Perhaps my questions were wrongly or poorly worded. I'm trying to gain information on how to approach what can be a touchy issue to try and understand how someone honestly feels about sex and its importance in a relationship. Granted, I think it's fair to say that has been somewhat answered already given a number of responses which state that someone who can't talk about sex openly is a red flag. That never really dawned on me to think of that as a red flag to be honest. The way I was raised, sex was not something to discuss openly, and I have had trouble talking about sex with my partners I think because of that. I just assumed it was something most felt awkward talking about. I know I'll take that advice and be sure to have a very frank discussion about it and be clear about how important it is to me.

How far in do people usually have the sex talk, or even start to broach the subject? It's obviously not a first date issue but I' not to interested in waiting two years or until sex starts to drop off before asking questions either. 

Sorry if these questions seem silly but I am very awkward with this subject. Like I said this wasn't something I was ever taught is a subject you talk about and my marriage and common-law relationship both had poor communication on the topic largely (my marriage especially, man I wish I had TAM back then).


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I would say pretty early in. When you are in an established relationship and opening up to each other, discussing your emotional history and what you have learned you need in a relationship, what's important to you...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The hard truth, KF, is that you won't know until you see their actions over time. Shiny new relationships generally include sex in adequate quantities, although some do not. You don't even know that until you try. Talking would have to be initiated by someone and provided with responses from another. If that's not there, you at least have an idea that someone is not as open as you'd like. Even that isn't a great judge, I don't think. It takes many folks time to feel comfortable enough to open up and talk about sex in the detail that some would like to discuss it. 

In the end, I really don't think there is a way to know for sure in a few dates or sometimes even months. The numerous TAM threads on problems with sex in marriage should be a sobering reality check for anyone. I don't think all those folks knew what would happen and thought it would change. 

On the other hand, if someone is very or extremely open to talk about sex, would if bother you? How much is too much? Would open discussion among friends be too much? If it comes up in more than half of the conversations you have, would that be a red flag? Some would say no, some yes. 

We are all unique individuals.

I wish you good luck in your journey to find what you really desire and need, not just in others, but within yourself.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> On the other hand, if someone is very or extremely open to talk about sex, would if bother you? How much is too much? Would open discussion among friends be too much? If it comes up in more than half of the conversations you have, would that be a red flag? Some would say no, some yes.
> 
> We are all unique individuals.
> 
> I wish you good luck in your journey to find what you really desire and need, not just in others, but within yourself.


When I was in my early 20's yes it would have bothered me to find someone willing to talk extremely openly about sex. I was quite reserved back then, even though I very much wanted a good sex life.

Now, no it wouldn't bother me. I guess if she was talking about sex -or our sex life- in a public setting or sharing what we do in the bedroom with all friends yeah, but in terms of just talking openly with me about it, I can't imagine I would be bothered at all. Even talking about sex with others, as long as its not about what we do I don't mind. Talking generalities with others should be fine for me.

It wouldn't be a red flag for me, at least not initially. If sex was a problem in her previous relationship(s) -or if she's had friends that have had it be a huge issue- it would only make sense to discuss it frequently. No different than what I'm asking about now, finding a way to make sure an issue is nipped in the bud.

And that you for the well wishes. Finding what I desire and need in me is far more important than finding it in someone else because I figure if I find myself, I'll find the person I'm truly seeking to be with me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> And that you for the well wishes. Finding what I desire and need in me is far more important than finding it in someone else because I figure if I find myself, I'll find the person I'm truly seeking to be with me.


You're welcome. I think this sums up what I was trying to convey.


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