# Need Guidance With Exposure and Execution of 180



## YPbPr

Last week, I made confirmation via e-mail that my wife is having an emotional affair. Not sure if it's physical but the warning signs are all there: working later nights, new clothes, acting strangely all the time, answering questions oddly etc.

Since finding the e-mails (which I have never exposed) we've gone through an emotional roller coaster as I've been more proactive about communicating and talking about us. Day 1: She would say she couldn't do "this" anymore, she's tired. Day 2: She says she has feelings for another person and her guard is down. She's thinking about moving out or at least going away for the weekend. Day 3: I let her know how committed I am to making "us" work. I admit blame in our marriage faults, suggest we see a MC, be more communicative, etc. She accepts. I ask she doesn't leave. She stays. I ask for MC and she agrees. Oh, and by the way, she wanted me to know her plans to for a business overnight next week are cancelled and she'll come home instead. awesome! since the e-mails I read talked about W meeting with OM on that trip.

That was Day 3. By day 5/6 it appears she's starting to revert. She's not sure MC is best for us, she came home late again last night and acted more strangely than I've ever witnessed. 

I have used a keylogger on my machine for security so I was able to look at very old records of her using my machine and found the password. Oddly, the day she came home and listened to me and agreed to work on us (Day 3) she changed her password. Not sure if that's related but my point is that I can no longer get in. She uses her own laptop which I have very little access to. Her cellphone is also on her person at all times and she watches it like a hawk.

My game-plan is get a VAR and put it in her car tonight. She's suppose to have normal work days today/tomorrow with IC tomorrow night. I figure I should get it in there and leave it through the week and then listen and assess. 

This is the probably the hardest thing I've had to do — maintain composure while going through the most pain I've ever felt. She probably see/feels it too but I'm doing my best.

My goal here? I'm hoping folks can coach me through the process. I want to give it a week of investigation. It'll be so hard but I think it'll be worth it. Who knows... Maybe this week will bring good things and we'll get into MC but I need to know facts cause if this is going to be a continued EA or PA I'll need confirmation before I feel good about starting The 180.


----------



## PHTlump

This link can help you crack her new password.
How to Crack the Account Password on Any Operating System – Joe Tech

As for her phone, that's more tricky. Can't help you there.

Good luck.


----------



## iheartlife

Have you researched the OM? Is he married, does he work with her, does he have a criminal background, etc?


----------



## keko

Not confronting was the right thing to do. Most people confront with what little they have and the affair goes further underground.

Her changing password and keeping the phone on her are all signs of EA if not PA already.

Which phone is she using?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

She had an affair and you took the blame for it how? Did you pointed a gun at her and asked her to have an affair? if not then affair was her choice and you have nothing to do with it. Your marriage may have been a hell and you may have been the most disgusting husband in the world, she had other choices to put effort in your marriage or divorce, but she choose to have an affair, how this is your fault? This is the classic blunter many BS make when they confront WS. Dont allow her to blameshift or manipulate you with her BS.

A person have an affair when they loose the respect for BS, dont loose the traces of respect left for you by begging her to stay in the marriage. If you need her back then let her go first...............


----------



## morituri

YPbPr,

Let me clue you on something that you may have forgotten. Wives lose attraction for fearful husbands who are too scared of losing their marriage. You need to man-up and implement *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559* and *The 180 degree rules* to obtain the emotional strength and confidence to move on with your life with or without her.

Selling your soul to save your marriage is always a Faustian deal.


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> Have you researched the OM? Is he married, does he work with her, does he have a criminal background, etc?


There's very little on-line about the OM other than a LinkedIn page. Tried searching his e-mail addy, name, and variants of his name without much luck. I know he's single (divorced), and he's reps my W's new account. Haven't tried criminal checks. 



keko said:


> Not confronting was the right thing to do. Most people confront with what little they have and the affair goes further underground.
> 
> Her changing password and keeping the phone on her are all signs of EA if not PA already.
> 
> Which phone is she using?


Blackberry. Not sure which one. It's a year or two old. Thanks for support my cause. Looking into VAR's. 



Kallan Pavithran said:


> She had an affair and you took the blame for it how? Did you pointed a gun at her and asked her to have an affair? if not then affair was her choice and you have nothing to do with it. Your marriage may have been a hell and you may have been the most disgusting husband in the world, she had other choices to put effort in your marriage or divorce, but she choose to have an affair, how this is your fault? This is the classic blunter many BS make when they confront WS. Dont allow her to blameshift or manipulate you with her BS.
> 
> A person have an affair when they loose the respect for BS, dont loose the traces of respect left for you by begging her to stay in the marriage. If you need her back then let her go first...............


If I wasn't clear, let me state that I'm responsible for my damage to the marriage and our relationship. I hold my WS 100% accountable for the extraneous action beyond our marriage. I know she had options and choosing to befriend an OM or share intamcies his entirely her fault. In fact, I think she's weak and might be damaged goods. Perhaps, this her MO. If so... Hit the bricks.



morituri said:


> YPbPr,
> 
> Let me clue you on something that you may have forgotten. Wives lose attraction for fearful husbands who are too scared of losing their marriage. You need to man-up and implement *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559* and *The 180 degree rules* to obtain the emotional strength and confidence to move on with your life with or without her.
> 
> Selling your soul to save your marriage is always a Faustian deal.


I'm already there. I want to do it that right now. But, I can't. I need to gather more intelligence first and play it cool. Let her make a mistake. I'm all for the 180 and letting someone go but I think I would be more effective if I gave things a bit more time was best prepared.


----------



## YPbPr

PHTlump said:


> This link can help you crack her new password.
> How to Crack the Account Password on Any Operating System – Joe Tech
> 
> As for her phone, that's more tricky. Can't help you there.
> 
> Good luck.


I don't have good access to her computer. I new the email password which you can check from any machine but now that's it changed I'm in the dark again.


----------



## keko

Y, try to get her messages from her phone.



lordmayhem said:


> This is why you should already have the Blackberry Desktop Manager
> 
> BlackBerry - BlackBerry Desktop Software - BlackBerry Software at BlackBerry.com
> 
> installed and the data cable hooked up ready to go. Then you hook up the blackberry and download the backup.
> 
> Then use an extractor like ABC Amber Blackberry Converter
> 
> ABC Amber BlackBerry Converter - Download


----------



## iheartlife

Have you used spokeo.com or intellius to reverse check his phone and address. Background checks available there for fees but they are rather cheap. I'd get background checks from more than one website, esp. if you find he uses multiple variants of his name, some websites will have the good on one name and other websites have more info on the other.


----------



## morituri

YPbPr said:


> I'm already there. I want to do it that right now. But, I can't. I need to gather more intelligence first and play it cool. Let her make a mistake. I'm all for the 180 and letting someone go but I think I would be more effective if I gave things a bit more time was best prepared.


YPbPr,

If you are not sure that she's already in a PA and you are still having sex with her, you need to stop being sexually intimate with her and get tested for STDs. This action itself could alert her that you may know that she's cheating on you.


----------



## Shaggy

If he is a rep to your wife's co. Contact his employer and here and report the affair 

Your goal right now is to kill the affair. Until the affair is over she will continue to fence sit as you have seen. 

Make it super costly to both of the them and they will end it 

She will be mad. But she will respect you in the end and he will be super angry at her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Shaggy said:


> If he is a rep to your wife's co. Contact his employer and here and report the affair
> 
> Your goal right now is to kill the affair. Until the affair is over she will continue to fence sit as you have seen.
> 
> Make it super costly to both of the them and they will end it
> 
> She will be mad. But she will respect you in the end and he will be super angry at her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree, if this is so her Company may not look so favourably on their affair, track his boss down and expose there as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> Have you used spokeo.com or intellius to reverse check his phone and address. Background checks available there for fees but they are rather cheap. I'd get background checks from more than one website, esp. if you find he uses multiple variants of his name, some websites will have the good on one name and other websites have more info on the other.


I don't have his phone. Just an work e-mai address. I signed up for Spokeo but I'm not getting good results with his name only. Can take random guesses on living locations based on work but it doesn't tell me much right now. 



morituri said:


> YPbPr,
> 
> If you are not sure that she's already in a PA and you are still having sex with her, you need to stop being sexually intimate with her and get tested for STDs. This action itself could alert her that you may know that she's cheating on you.


We haven't been sexually active in weeks but I'm not certain I want to let on quite yet. I still feel the need to fact collect. You think I should be putting this out there right now?



Shaggy said:


> If he is a rep to your wife's co. Contact his employer and here and report the affair
> 
> Your goal right now is to kill the affair. Until the affair is over she will continue to fence sit as you have seen.
> 
> Make it super costly to both of the them and they will end it
> 
> She will be mad. But she will respect you in the end and he will be super angry at her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is my W's company's client and she manages the account. They work at different companies but my W's business is providing them service. It's a huge account and my W's company is very dependent on this business to survive. It would have huge affects if the left. Regardless, to me, marriage is more important but I wanted to put the politics out there to everyone. 



Eli-Zor said:


> Agree, if this is so her Company may not look so favourably on their affair, track his boss down and expose there as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure what you mean here.


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Y, try to get her messages from her phone.


I downloaded the Blackberry app and I'll need to get the special cable. Any idea how long a backup takes. I wouldn't have much time to do it. Maybe grab it while she's showering if she doesn't take it in the bathroom with her.


----------



## YPbPr

Also wanted to add... VAR gets put in played tomorrow.


----------



## iheartlife

If you know his company, maybe you could call a receptionist and have them help you get his full name. They should have a directory. You can make up a story about a misdirected email or that you lost his name and it wasn't on the email or something like that. Sorry, I'm sure you can be more creative but knowing what company he's at is a big lead.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I downloaded the Blackberry app and I'll need to get the special cable. Any idea how long a backup takes. I wouldn't have much time to do it. Maybe grab it while she's showering if she doesn't take it in the bathroom with her.


There's another thread about it(2mins or so) but while she's in shower it'll be enough. Just download the programs before hand so as soon as she jumps into shower you can get the backup.


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> If you know his company, maybe you could call a receptionist and have them help you get his full name. They should have a directory. You can make up a story about a misdirected email or that you lost his name and it wasn't on the email or something like that. Sorry, I'm sure you can be more creative but knowing what company he's at is a big lead.


I know his full name. It's on his company e-mail address. What are we trying to do here? I don't know where he lives (not that I really need to), nor his phone number. 



keko said:


> There's another thread about it(2mins or so) but while she's in shower it'll be enough. Just download the programs before hand so as soon as she jumps into shower you can get the backup.


Good to know. Thank you.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> I know his full name. It's on his company e-mail address. What are we trying to do here? I don't know where he lives (not that I really need to), nor his phone number.


You are trying to find out if he is married, and if he has a criminal background.

If your wife is in an EA or worse, she is in a fantasy bubble. If his wife is able to persuade him to end contact in whatever way, that bubble may pop.

Similarly, if he's a criminal or dangerous, this can help destroy the fantasy and bring your wife back to reality.

You titled your thread 'need guidance with exposure' so I'm a little surprised (no offense) that you asked why.


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> You are trying to find out if he is married, and if he has a criminal background.
> 
> If your wife is in an EA or worse, she is in a fantasy bubble. If his wife is able to persuade him to end contact in whatever way, that bubble may pop.
> 
> Similarly, if he's a criminal or dangerous, this can help destroy the fantasy and bring your wife back to reality.
> 
> You titled your thread 'need guidance with exposure' so I'm a little surprised (no offense) that you asked why.


He is divorced/single (I guess I assumed you knew that but how could you?  ) but I can look into his criminal record provided I find the right guy on spokeo. All I have to go with is place of employment and e-mail address along with full name.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> He is divorced/single (I guess I assumed you knew that but how could you?  ) but I can look into his criminal record provided I find the right guy on spokeo. All I have to go with is place of employment and e-mail address along with full name.


sorry if I missed that somewhere. I tried to search the thread but didn't spot it.


----------



## YPbPr

^^^ It's possible I wrote it in another thread ^^^


----------



## Will_Kane

You say you have proof of an emotional affair through her email.

You do not say (as far as I can see in this thread) what proof.

What was said in the email between your wife and the other man that makes you say it is an emotional affair?

What about the frequency of contact, number of texts/emails, length of phone conversations, time of contact (e.g., two o'clock in the morning or only during the day)? Do you have any info on that?


----------



## YPbPr

Will_Kane said:


> You say you have proof of an emotional affair through her email.
> 
> You do not say (as far as I can see in this thread) what proof.
> 
> What was said in the email between your wife and the other man that makes you say it is an emotional affair?
> 
> What about the frequency of contact, number of texts/emails, length of phone conversations, time of contact (e.g., two o'clock in the morning or only during the day)? Do you have any info on that?


Thanks everyone for taking from time your busy lives to help. As much as my friends have been there to support me, I feel like I'm talking to experts on this site.

I no longer have the correct e-mail password; however, in terms of tangibles, I saved one e-mail correspondence that's very flirtatious and discusses a meet-up that I was not privy to. I shared it with a lawyer who said, yes, something's up but in terms of legal there's nothing there. I didn't save any other e-mails but I did see lots of back and forth stuff like sharing articles from the internet, book recommendations, talk about life, etc. A lot of the links and articles were instigated mostly my the OM with topics about regrets in life, dating etc. Unfortunately, I do not have copies of those. 

In terms of frequency, it looked to be almost daily. I do not have access to her cell phone so I can't tell you how often their texting nor can I look at the call logs to see how long the conversations for on for.

To give you guys an update: Monday was awful. It was another running-late-from-work call. I knew she was at the OM's company that day in meetings. Highly suspicious when you're running late from his neck of the woods. When she got home The evening was filled with tension. She eventually she said she felt sick and we went to bed early. I knew something was up but let it go for now as I knew I'd be working to gather more intel.

If I was truly in the dark, I'd say yesterday was a good day. W came home early, dinner, TV, lots of talking, foot rubs, etc.

This morning, I discovered a receipt from a restaurant near the OM's business. Remember Monday's description above? The bill was dated for Monday and it was paid at 6p, and she called me at 6:25p to say she was stuck in traffic however there were zero traffic incidents reported on Google. When she walked in the door there was an Old Spice-like odor. You couldn't miss it. Over the past two days it definitely radiates from one armpit area of her jacket. I double-checked her deodorant and the smells aren't even close.

The good news is the VAR was installed this morning. I hope it works.


----------



## keko

Did you try to get the backup off her phone?


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Did you try to get the backup off her phone?


Thanks for checking. It's almost impossible to get access to it. When we woke up this morning she took it with her to the bathroom to get ready. It's always by her side. Monday night I thought about grabbing it mid-night — she woke up every time I made a move to make sure it was there. Who the heck wants to live like that?


----------



## keko

Does she take it with her into shower?

Maybe she has already gone PA, considering the old spice scent.


----------



## YPbPr

She puts the cell phone next to her gym bag outside the bathroom and keeps the bathroom door open. She doesn't shower since she's gym-bound but she gets her face ready for the day. 

It's possible she's gone PA. When we were first seeing each other though, she saw me many times without hooking up and said she couldn't do it b/c what would I think of her if she did and we continued on. That said, when we finally did hook up, who's to say she hadn't made her last breakup official yet. I assume she did. Yes, I'm seeing her pattern here.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> She puts the cell phone next to her gym bag outside the bathroom and keeps the bathroom door open. She doesn't shower since she's gym-bound but she gets her face ready for the day.
> 
> It's possible she's gone PA. When we were first seeing each other though, she saw me many times without hooking up and said she couldn't do it b/c what would I think of her if she did and we continued on. That said, when we finally did hook up, who's to say she hadn't made her last breakup official yet. I assume she did. Yes, I'm seeing her pattern here.


Not worth the risk. Can you place a GPS in her car? or have a friend follow and take pictures next time she is "stuck in traffic"? Would those be useful for your attorney?

edit: Are you sure she is at the gym? There is another thread where the wife is an escort when she is supposed to be at the gym.


----------



## YPbPr

There's a VAR in W's car now. That will provide plenty of intel IMO. It terms of legal here... There's nothing at stake. Marriage has only been a handful of months, all of our money is separate, no kids, and we rent. It's a clean break. I double-checked the gym. She's indeed there.


----------



## Shaggy

The fact that they do business is a huge strength when you expose. He is violating ethics by being in an affair with a supplier and she for being the supplier. Both companies are going to come down hard on the affair and that will help you kill it bigtIme
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> The fact that they do business is a huge strength when you expose. He is violating ethics by being in an affair with a supplier and she for being the supplier. Both companies are going to come down hard on the affair and that will help you kill it bigtIme
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's the very difficult part about this. Exposing him could kill the business for my W's firm and put everyone at my W's firm in jeopardy of loosing their job since the account is so big. A lot more politics at play here. 

I agree, exposing him at his company would kill the affair but it might take out the jobs of several other people too .What to do?


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> That's the very difficult part about this. Exposing him could kill the business for my W's firm and put everyone at my W's firm in jeopardy of loosing their job since the account is so big. A lot more politics at play here.
> 
> I agree, exposing him at his company would kill the affair but it might take out the jobs of several other people too .What to do?


If you W's company really depends on this job, then that company is already very shaky and people would lose their job regardless of the exposure. But I totally agree with Shaggy, ethically this is very wrong. Maybe a different company lost their bid because of this affair. In my personal experience, exposing an affair to the workplace is a good reason for companies to fire people and set an example, the business' rarely gets effected.

The other way you should look at is, "if someone messes with my family wife then I'll go against them with everything I got".


----------



## OldWolf57

Hi Y, sorry you here, but if you don't want to expose, and since the marriage is so young. then just pack her a few suitcases the next time she calls and say she working late. better yet, take them to her, the bar, the job, where ever. Ask her where she is, and when she ask why, say so you can bring her s##t to her. It is too early in the marriage for this stuff. What will it be like 10yrs. from now. Cut your loses man and wish her the best. She's in sales, and there are many a thread with cheating wives in sales hooking up, and ruining families. Is she going to change careers ? If she is developing EAs this early in the marriage, my man you are up the creek.


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> That's the very difficult part about this. Exposing him could kill the business for my W's firm and put everyone at my W's firm in jeopardy of loosing their job since the account is so big. A lot more politics at play here.
> 
> I agree, exposing him at his company would kill the affair but it might take out the jobs of several other people too .What to do?


Even if the worst case scenario happens, and your wife's company goes bankrupt, that's not your fault. Your wife and her boyfriend did it. Trying to avoid the consequences after the fact is like a child murdering his parents and then asking the court to have mercy because he's an orphan.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks all. Last night was so painful. I've been waking up in the middle of the night for about a week. In about an hour, I'm heading over to W's car to pickup the VAR. It's been recording for the first 24 hours. So afraid of what I'm about to find out. It's also difficult to ramp up to the 180. I'm thinking I need to start planning out my script for the 180 which could be started as soon as tonight. 

She's back in the neighboring city today for work. The e-mails I found last week discussed a meeting with OM for this day (today). Last week, she told me she had to stay overnight "next Thursday" (now today) but when we had our heart-to-heart seven days ago she casually mentioned she wouldn't be staying overnight. For the record, she started reverting on that sentiment as soon as last Sunday. She left the house this morning saying she needed to figure out what the "clients" wanted to do after the meetings saying there might be a mandatory happy hour. 

Here's a rough outline for the 180:

W comes home and I start asking lots of questions. How was work? Who did you work with? Where was happy hour? Who was there? What did you drink? What time did you leave?

My guess is that she'll start feel a bit interrogated at which point I'll say, I'm very uncomfortable with what's been going on. Are you seeing someone else? My guess is that she'll say no. 

Next... Where were Monday when you called and said you were stuck in traffic. She'll say stuck in traffic. I'll say, Google maps showed no traffic. Where were you? When did your meeting end? You smelled like a different deodarant when you came home. You were extremely pensive that evening. Did something happen? Are you seeing anyone?

If denial continues, I'm going to say, "I know what you're doing. I'm willing to work on this marriage 100% with you but have to be honest with me right now. Who are you seeing? Has it gone physical yet?"

I'll have to wait and see what happens at that point. If she comes clean and wants to R, then I will suggest the terms: NC contract to be written immediately and called in to follow. Next, total transparency. If those are granted, then I will say we must get into MC tomorrow and see what happens. 

If denial continues, I'll say, "I know you're lying. You're involved with another man and I won't be a part of an open marriage. If you choose to be dishonest with me then you must leave. Now. I have your suitcase here. you must take what you need for now and go. I don't care where you go but you can't stay here." I will then expose her to her parents the following morning explaining what happened the night prior.


----------



## keko

You don't have any hard evidence yet. Why not drop a keylogger in her computer whenever you have access? Put a GPS in her car to see if she skips work or stays overnight at the last minute?


----------



## bandit.45

Get more evidence first. You must build a bulletproof case and lay it all out in all its ugliness in front of her. If you don't she'll gaslight you and obfuscate. Put a keylogger on the computer and see what else you can dig up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Go in the bathroom, scoop up the phone in a towel, and take it and download, somewhere she won't think to look. When she comes out of the shower and accuses you of taking her phone, just shrug and say you don't know what she's talking about. Later, when it's done, sneak the phone back into the bathoom and hide it behind something, so she'll find it and think she did it herself. 

As for what to do, do a great Plan A right now, until you get the intel you need. Look good, smell good, make her her favorite meal, show her what she'd be missing. Then, once you get the proof, you print out the proof and keep a copy at your work. Pay someone to get his parents' and siblings' phone number/address. 

Once you have all that, you confront her and say you know she's cheating, you have proof, and you want her to stop. If she refuses, tell her to move out. If she refuses, wait til she's gone and sit down and call her parents and her siblings and her best friend, and his family, all within the same hour. This MUST be done all at once, because as soon as one person calls her, she'll start calling everyone else, telling them that you are abusive or crazy or whatever, so that no one believes you. People believe the first person they hear.

Then you just sit back and wait for the firestorm. She'll tell you she was GOING to choose you but now you've ruined it. That everyone thinks you're crazy. That she's going to a lawyer tomorrow. Just ignore it all. Offer her a cookie; makes as much sense as what she's saying. Just wait it out and see if she ends the affair.

If she still carries on with OM, you go to a lawyer and get a separation order started, and you let her know. Tell her you won't share her with another man and if she wants to see OM again, she can do so as a single person. 

Women NEED to see their man strong like this, to admire them. If they don't admire them, they can't love them.

Or...since the marriage is so young, just move out. Make her chase you.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> Here's a rough outline for the 180:
> 
> W comes home and I start asking lots of questions. How was work? Who did you work with? Where was happy hour? Who was there? What did you drink? What time did you leave?


Just for the record, that is NOT a 180. A 180 means that you basically ignore her and live your own life and let her get a taste of life without you. Interrogating her just makes you look like a weak doormat. (and gets you no real truth anyway)


----------



## iheartlife

turnera said:


> Just for the record, that is NOT a 180. A 180 means that you basically ignore her and live your own life and let her get a taste of life without you. Interrogating her just makes you look like a weak doormat. (and gets you no real truth anyway)


:iagree:

Everybody's watched so many movies, and they THINK they know their spouses so well. They think it will all play out like the last 15 minutes of the latest blockbuster. 

YOU (good guy): I am on to you! You will never get away with this!

THEM (evil mastermind): Ha, ha, ha. Yes, I have been planning this for centuries. Let me take you on a convoluted explanation of how this master plan was formed and executed. I will keep talking and talking, just long enough for you to break free from your bonds or for the posse to show up. Now let me start from the very beginning.....


----------------

You need to take this in the OPPOSITE direction. *Do not interrogate. It only reveals how little you know.*


Well, maybe the blockbuster has one thing on you. In the movie, the good guy stays SILENT, and asks NO questions, and the evil mastermind does ALL of the talking.


----------



## brokenbloke

Don't confront yet. As a general rule you NEVER want to ask your WS what s/he is doing, are you in an affair, what's the extent etc. They will ONLY deny. What you do want to do is TELL them that you know they are doing x,y,z. You don't tell them what evidence you have, just that you know they are having an A. No further discussion or debate otherwise gaslighting and it becoming clear to WS of the extent of your knowledge. To that end in order to be able to TELL them you know they are having an A you need hard evidence, so wait till you do.

DONT ask her what's she doing. It will only reveal what you know, that you are on to her, get her to lie and cover up, and warn her to hide her activities better in the future. DO TELL her what you know once you have the hard evidence. Big difference between these two, but a vital one.


----------



## baldmale

Cheaters always lie when asked direct questions like "are you seeing someone else?" Mine did too. They never reveal more than you can already show them you know. Think about the lies they've already executed to be with their lover(s) and the level of deceit it takes to climb back into your bed at night. Really, stop for a minute and think about that. Lying now to your face to cover up the affair is a drop in the bucket and I actually think it provides them with a thrill to think how close you are to truth without actually knowing the full extent.

Bottom line: Don't confront without all your evidence. Like a lawyer, don't ask questions you don't already know the answers to.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks everyone. The VAR revealed nothing other than her music choices and a phone call to me. I'm going to give it more time but in the meantime what should I do? I'd really like to have an "us" conversation tonight. If I give her the benefit of the doubt and assume nothing is going on wouldn't I want to talk to her about our relationship? 

Rather than be accusatory, I figure we could simply have a conversation that talks about where we're at. A week ago she was ready to make it work and get MC. Then she back-peddled on that by Sunday. Last night, she had IC but didn't talk about it at all. Assuming there was no A going and this was simply about unhappiness, wouldn't I want to engage her about us (leaving the cell phone, dinner receipt, etc out of it)?


----------



## Shaggy

If there is an A you really need to expose because it's clear that the job is continuing to feed the contact and the cheating. The choice is expose and end the affair, or not expose and end the marriage.

Her changing her willingness to do whatever, is her seeing him more and her deciding to continue te affair. You're playing softball while she is hardening herself and getting ready to advance the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

I'd rather cut it off before it happens if it hasn't gone to a PA. I'm starting to feel like I'm paranoid and overreacting.


----------



## turnera

Patience, grasshopper. 

Give it at least until Saturday before you go having any talks.

What are you doing on the other fronts to get intel?


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> Thanks everyone. The VAR revealed nothing other than her music choices and a phone call to me. I'm going to give it more time but in the meantime what should I do? I'd really like to have an "us" conversation tonight. If I give her the benefit of the doubt and assume nothing is going on wouldn't I want to talk to her about our relationship?
> 
> Rather than be accusatory, I figure we could simply have a conversation that talks about where we're at. A week ago she was ready to make it work and get MC. Then she back-peddled on that by Sunday. Last night, she had IC but didn't talk about it at all. Assuming there was no A going and this was simply about unhappiness, wouldn't I want to engage her about us (leaving the cell phone, dinner receipt, etc out of it)?


If there was no affair/you had no knowledge about it then yes you could have had "us" conversation. But since she is displaying plenty of A red flags, you have to decide if your conversation will be about ending the marriage or A. If its the latter you need a whole lot more evidence then the email and receipt.


----------



## profos

YPbPr said:


> what should I do? I'd really like to have an "us" conversation tonight. , I figure we could simply have a conversation that talks about where we're at. A week ago she was ready to make it work and get MC. Then she back-peddled on that by Sunday.


Ok, this thread is about executing the 180.

You've got a cheating wife who isn't interested in fixing anything.

Forget about any "us" conversations about seeing where the relationship is at.

You're not doing anything close to a 180, it's more like you're running in a big circle, call it a 360 if you will, with your own tail always just out of reach.


----------



## YPbPr

turnera said:


> Patience, grasshopper.
> 
> Give it at least until Saturday before you go having any talks.
> 
> What are you doing on the other fronts to get intel?


I was thinking Sunday/Monday. Not doing anything else other than the VAR in the car. I have a keylogger on my computer (she never uses it) at the house. Her laptop and cellphone are unobtainable. In an instance where she might leave her cellphone behind, I have the archive software to download the data instantly. She'd have to forget the phone in the house for that to happen though. Not likely. I check receipts in her purse from time to time. Nothing much new there lately.



keko said:


> If there was no affair/you had no knowledge about it then yes you could have had "us" conversation. But since she is displaying plenty of A red flags, you have to decide if your conversation will be about ending the marriage or A. If its the latter you need a whole lot more evidence then the email and receipt.


The affair means nothing to me. Our short marriage and partnerships have nothing on the line. No kids, no house, no combined income or back accounts. There's no alamony issues. It's just a quick split. What's yours? What's mine. That's it.

I guess if I wanted to accelerate things I could forget about the possible A and simply have a marriage talk. Something like, "I know you're trying to get your mind around what you want to do. Last week, you wanted to make it work and get into MC. Since then, you've thought that might not be the best for us right now. It's a week later and you're still uncertain about us. I cannot live in limbo. You mentioned you want to move out. I think you should do that starting tomorrow and we should make arrangements for a divorce."


----------



## keko

If you have nothing lose(marriage wise), take the risk and get the backup off her phone.


----------



## YPbPr

profos said:


> Ok, this thread is about executing the 180.
> 
> You've got a cheating wife who isn't interested in fixing anything.
> 
> Forget about any "us" conversations about seeing where the relationship is at.
> 
> You're not doing anything close to a 180, it's more like you're running in a big circle, call it a 360 if you will, with your own tail always just out of reach.


You know what. You're right and since I don't care about the affair or having to prove anything then I'm going to take some advice I found in another thread and say:

"When I married you, I meant my vows, I meant it for life. Now you've told me you aren't sure about us and you want out and I've come to the realization that I deserve better, deserve someone that wants to be with me with certainty. If you want to work on the marriage, then we can, together. If you don't want to, then it's best we cut ties as soon as possible so that we don't waste each others' time. I deserve a partnership, not a one-sided relationship."

I don't need to prove anything extraneous. This is about respect. I'm not getting any so why put up with it?


----------



## PHTlump

When you confront her, don't try to trap her in lies and then explain how you know they're lies. That plays to her strengths and your weakness. Tell her that you need to talk. Then say, "I know about OM." Stay silent and wait for her to respond. She may shrug and ask what you know. She may gasp and look guilty as hell. She may laugh and be relieved that she doesn't have to hide anymore. If she asks how you know, tell her it's not important. If she asks what you know, tell her that you know that she's betrayed you with OM. Be vague. Then, tell her that you refuse to be in an open marriage and that she should go.

After that, you go dark and let her come to you asking for forgiveness, if she wants it.

Good luck.


----------



## keko

If you are 100% you will D her, make sure to expose them to both of their companies. Don't let the sc**bag's get away with it.


----------



## YPbPr

I've started the process. W sent a text saying she's going for drinks. I responded saying we're going to have a chat when she returns and now the firestorm of sh*t has begun. First W asked about what. Second text said I can't say that and not say why.

I'm going dark now and when she comes home I'll state what I mentioned above. I think it's actually stronger than getting the OM or the A. It says, I don't like the way you're acting. Period. Get out.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I've started the process. W sent a text saying she's going for drinks. I responded saying we're going to have a chat when she returns and now the firestorm of sh*t has begun. First W asked about what. Second text said I can't say that and not say why.
> 
> I'm going dark now and when she comes home I'll state what I mentioned above. I think it's actually stronger than getting the OM or the A. It says, I don't like the way you're acting. Period. Get out.


What if she comes straight home without having drinks? What will you do then?

I still think you should gather hard evidence without jumping to conclusion's.


----------



## YPbPr

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm letting go of the A. I'm not acknowledging the OM. I WILL NOT MENTION EITHER. I'm simply saying, quit fencesitting. Get on the bus or get off.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm letting go of the A. I'm not acknowledging the OM. I WILL NOT MENTION EITHER. I'm simply saying, quit fencesitting. Get on the bus or get off.


Your last post's made it seem you were going to mention OM/A, maybe I misunderstood them.

What if she gives in and decides to continue the marriage, while secretly keeping tabs with OM? Giving an ultimatum to a cheater will either backfire or a false R. Keep your response's ready for each option.


----------



## baldmale

Should have told her to come straight home then or expect to find her bags packed when she finally staggers home.


----------



## turnera

You oughta show up at the bar. "I wanted to spend some quality time with my wife."


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Your last post's made it seem you were going to mention OM/A, maybe I misunderstood them.
> 
> What if she gives in and decides to continue the marriage, while secretly keeping tabs with OM? Giving an ultimatum to a cheater will either backfire or a false R. Keep your response's ready for each option.


VAR is still in the car so it will come out eventually but my mind has completely changed on this. I'm being so disrespected that I just want her gone.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> VAR is still in the car so it will come out eventually but my mind has completely changed on this. I'm being so disrespected that I just want her gone.


Rightfully so, but do you have any hard evidence of her being strongly in love with OM? PA?

Are you sure she is pursuing this relationship in a sexual way or more like her wanting the job to be hassle free by keeping OM "happy"?


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Rightfully so, but do you have any hard evidence of her being strongly in love with OM? PA?
> 
> Are you sure she is pursuing this relationship in a sexual way or more like her wanting the job to be hassle free by keeping OM "happy"?


I do not have hard evidence that it's a PA or if W is madly in love. Not sure if she's going the extra mile with this client either. You're bringing me back to paranoia where I'm thinking this is all in my head. I'm headed to the gym to clear my mind. Would love to read some responses when i get back.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I do not have hard evidence that it's a PA or if W is madly in love. Not sure if she's going the extra mile with this client either. You're bringing me back to paranoia where I'm thinking this is all in my head. I'm headed to the gym to clear my mind. Would love to read some responses when i get back.


It wasn't my intention 

Just trying to tell you have important it is to gether intelligence, no matter how hard it is before making decision's/or asking for a decision.


----------



## turnera

It's important to figure out what you can live with, and them move forward with that knowledge in mind. If she oversteps those boundaries, you have your answer.


----------



## YPbPr

Well that went horribly  Everything got put on me. She wants to move out. That's that.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> Well that went horribly  Everything got put on me. She wants to move out. That's that.


Move out as in divorce or she needs time?

Also stop taking the blame, you did nothing wrong.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Well that went horribly  Everything got put on me. She wants to move out. That's that.


I'm sorry. I hope you learn what's behind her wall of secrecy via the VAR or some other means.


----------



## OldWolf57

I applaud you dude, to hell with all the gathering and snooping. This marriage is too damn young for this drama. All you have to do is smell the armpit of her jacket. Her arm was around his neck holding on tight for that. Now tell me what she was doing. Cut your loses, and walk away with your dignity intact. Yeah your'e the reason she was in the backseat. Blame shifting. Good Riddence !!!


----------



## anonim

OldWolf57 said:


> Hi Y, sorry you here, but if you don't want to expose, and since the marriage is so young. then just pack her a few suitcases the next time she calls and say she working late. better yet, take them to her, the bar, the job, where ever. Ask her where she is, and when she ask why, say so you can bring her s##t to her. It is too early in the marriage for this stuff. What will it be like 10yrs. from now. Cut your loses man and wish her the best. She's in sales, and there are many a thread with cheating wives in sales hooking up, and ruining families. Is she going to change careers ? If she is developing EAs this early in the marriage, my man you are up the creek.


Heck why dont you buy her condoms?


----------



## anonim

YPbPr said:


> I do not have hard evidence that it's a PA or if W is madly in love. Not sure if she's going the extra mile with this client either. You're bringing me back to paranoia where I'm thinking this is all in my head. I'm headed to the gym to clear my mind. Would love to read some responses when i get back.


no one brought you to this paranoia except you by your in ability to gather information you are able to get (by stealing her phone and key logging her comp) and her (by having an EA and leaving it open for you to find.)

In a way youre kind of fence sitting yourself.
Either get the information to determine whether she is or is not having an EA/PA or accept that she might be.

EDIT; nvm


----------



## OldWolf57

get it right, he said he's out


----------



## happyman64

Y,
Of course she will turn it around on you.

Why would she stop disrespecting so far?

Let her go.

While she is busy packing take her blackberry and copy it if it will make you feel better.

Man, your wife sucks for a new wife. Who needs the drama this early on in the marriage!!!

Keep your dignity and find a woman who will respect you and your values.

HM64


----------



## turnera

Seriously. Why stay married to someone who will cheat in 6 months?

Just remember that her blaming it all on you is just HER trying to save face. Has nothing to do with YOU.


----------



## bandit.45

Get thee to a lawyer. You may be able to file for annulment if you have been married less than a year. Its quicker and much cheaper than a divorce. 

Sorry you married a bimbo my friend. I did too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks for the kind words and support. It was pretty ugly last night. This morning, looking back at last night, I felt like I got impatient so I wanted to salvage things and continue to monitor. We talked at length this morning and probably did a lot of things that might drive her way. I didn't beg, grovel, etc but I did talked about us and the marriage etc. I still mean those things but it was a bit of ruse to get her to come down and not go just yet. She left the house in an OK place but she'll be going to her sis's place tomorrow and a married, female co-worker's house on Sunday. I said do what you need to do. I'm hear if you need me.


----------



## Shamwow

You did well, though you would've done better to not tell her you'd be there if she needed you. She already knows that, and you'll want her to question that going forward.

Confronting often goes awry a few times, so many factors in play, all good.

I would pretty much go dark right now if I were you. Don't call or text her unless it's an emergency. Let her stew and initiate any contact.


----------



## bandit.45

Call a lawyer and find out exactly what your options are.


----------



## YPbPr

I've spoken with a lawyer and there's not a lot to do in terms of divorce send we don't have assets together, kids, or combined finances. We both just walk with whatever we came in with. I will look into an annulment though.

I know I did the wrong thing telling her I'll be there but I'm playing the game right now to so I can keep monitoring.


----------



## bandit.45

You are way too young to waste your youth and future on this immature, silly, selfish girl. 

Even if she comes clean, breaks off the affair and reconciles with you, there is a 50% probability she will cheat again in the future. 

Those are not good odds to bet your future on my friend.


----------



## bandit.45

Oh, and no more sex unless you two are sure about reconcilliation. You get her pregnant....it's your a*s.


----------



## keko

^^^Agreed.

Will you expose them to their HR?


----------



## SprucHub

Good job YPD. Focus on you now - not whether there was an affair or no affair. And, good job ignoring people who told you to put her company's finances (and many people's jobs in jeopardy) - that is ridiculous. Other than in a certain R situation, please stop advising people to embarrass themselves or inject non-family/friends into their personal lives. Tell her parents, sure, certain friends, absolutely, the OM or OW's spouse if there is one - first thing, but a single OM's boss? NO. If someone told me one of my colleagues was cheating on his wife or ruining someone else's marriage, I'd tell the tattler that that is none of my business and to get a grip. His problem is with his wife - instructing him to go put lots of other families is a precarious position regarding their livelihoods is crazy. If he took down her company, you think she'd be more likely to go back to him?


----------



## PHTlump

SprucHub said:


> Good job YPD. Focus on you now - not whether there was an affair or no affair. And, good job ignoring people who told you to put her company's finances (and many people's jobs in jeopardy) - that is ridiculous. Other than in a certain R situation, please stop advising people to embarrass themselves or inject non-family/friends into their personal lives. Tell her parents, sure, certain friends, absolutely, the OM or OW's spouse if there is one - first thing, but a single OM's boss? NO. If someone told me one of my colleagues was cheating on his wife or ruining someone else's marriage, I'd tell the tattler that that is none of my business and to get a grip. His problem is with his wife - instructing him to go put lots of other families is a precarious position regarding their livelihoods is crazy. If he took down her company, you think she'd be more likely to go back to him?


It all depends on the company. If a person worked for a company that doesn't mind employees sleeping with clients (or vendors), then don't tell. If a person worked for a company that does, and some do, then the betrayed husband would be within his rights to expose the affair. And other people's jobs don't enter into the equation. His wife started the ball rolling. He would only be calling attention to the rolling ball. What is crazy about giving a boss information that he would like to have?


----------



## Shaggy

SprucHub said:


> Good job YPD. Focus on you now - not whether there was an affair or no affair. And, good job ignoring people who told you to put her company's finances (and many people's jobs in jeopardy) - that is ridiculous. Other than in a certain R situation, please stop advising people to embarrass themselves or inject non-family/friends into their personal lives. Tell her parents, sure, certain friends, absolutely, the OM or OW's spouse if there is one - first thing, but a single OM's boss? NO. If someone told me one of my colleagues was cheating on his wife or ruining someone else's marriage, I'd tell the tattler that that is none of my business and to get a grip. His problem is with his wife - instructing him to go put lots of other families is a precarious position regarding their livelihoods is crazy. If he took down her company, you think she'd be more likely to go back to him?


Where I work this situation is actually covered in out yearly ethics training and I would also be getting fired if I knew or strongly suspected and said nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SprucHub

There is a big difference between reporting on other people at work, when it is expected, and reporting on your spouse at his/her job or reporting on the OM/OW at his/her job. Unless one is doing it because he believed he was helping the wife's company by alerting them to the situation, it is pettiness, just to get her in trouble.

The OP clearly said that alerting the OM's boss could put his wife's company in jeopardy.

Other people's jobs don't enter into the equation? What kind of thinking is that. Just the collateral damage of war with your wife, everyone should suffer? So, if the OM's company pulled its account and found another service provider and all of the OP's wife's colleagues lost their jobs that is just life? I guess we have to disagree. I think other people's jobs are more important than the satisfaction of ratting on someone.


----------



## Shaggy

SprucHub said:


> There is a big difference between reporting on other people at work, when it is expected, and reporting on your spouse at his/her job or reporting on the OM/OW at his/her job. Unless one is doing it because he believed he was helping the wife's company by alerting them to the situation, it is pettiness, just to get her in trouble.
> 
> The OP clearly said that alerting the OM's boss could put his wife's company in jeopardy.
> 
> Other people's jobs don't enter into the equation? What kind of thinking is that. Just the collateral damage of war with your wife, everyone should suffer? So, if the OM's company pulled its account and found another service provider and all of the OP's wife's colleagues lost their jobs that is just life? I guess we have to disagree. I think other people's jobs are more important than the satisfaction of ratting on someone.


I'd bring down any company if it meant a chance to save my marriage. It is work that is enabling this affair. Don't loose sight of tat fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PHTlump

SprucHub said:


> There is a big difference between reporting on other people at work, when it is expected, and reporting on your spouse at his/her job or reporting on the OM/OW at his/her job. Unless one is doing it because he believed he was helping the wife's company by alerting them to the situation, it is pettiness, just to get her in trouble.


Why is it any different if one worked at the company? Do you believe you should only report to protect your own job? That's the time it's morally appropriate? What if I witness a cashier at the grocery store steal money from the register. I don't work for the grocery store. Should I report her? It may cost her her job if i do. I think I should. If her job was that important, she shouldn't have been stealing.



SprucHub said:


> Other people's jobs don't enter into the equation? What kind of thinking is that.


It's a separate issue. Should a thief be put in jail? What if the thief had a family that depended on him. Is it the responsibility of the police or courts to think about his family? Or is that his responsibility that he defaulted on?



SprucHub said:


> Just the collateral damage of war with your wife, everyone should suffer? So, if the OM's company pulled its account and found another service provider and all of the OP's wife's colleagues lost their jobs that is just life? I guess we have to disagree. I think other people's jobs are more important than the satisfaction of ratting on someone.


Again, it's not the OP's duty to consider the consequences of his wife's actions. It's her duty. He would be within his rights to ensure that she faces those consequences. If other people get hurt, that is unfortunate. But it's not his fault. Any more than it's the fault of the person who calls the police on a thief when the thief's family gets evicted from their house. So, disagree it is.

I think it's inappropriate to say to a betrayed husband that he has a duty to protect his disloyal wife from any consequences that she may face as a result of her selfish behavior. She had a duty to her husband and to her company. She failed in both. The consequences are hers to face. If other people are hurt as a result of those consequences, it's not the fault of her husband for being cheated on.


----------



## keko

SprucHub said:


> Other people's jobs don't enter into the equation? What kind of thinking is that. Just the collateral damage of war with your wife, everyone should suffer? So, if the OM's company pulled its account and found another service provider and all of the OP's wife's colleagues lost their jobs that is just life? I guess we have to disagree. I think other people's jobs are more important than the satisfaction of ratting on someone.


If a company desperately depends on one job, then its no rocket-science to predict it'll fail sooner or later.


----------



## OldWolf57

Hey Y, look at the timeline, did her behaviour change around the time they got the contract ? Is that when you noticed something ?? Do you think she used her body to get the contract and is using it to keep it ?? So, let's say thats what happened, so what about the next contract ? Will she do the same again ??? Not saying thats what happened. But I say again, you are wasting too much mental and emotional energy on a marraige this young. Also, to keep yourself from going crazy, take the jacket to the cleaners. There, no old spice smell in your house.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks for the support. My W left yesterday morning to head to her sister's. Yesterday morning was very hard for me. I had a friend come over in the late-afternoon and that helped me get through the day. W called at one point to make some small talk. I know what I should really be doing is no contact but I need to have some hard evidence first. That's very important to me. So my strategy is to play nice right now. 

We talked about her day and she mention that her mother left. I found that to be incredibly telling. That made me remember all the things she told me about her family dynamics when she went through her first D and how her relationship with her mother suffered tremendously and it took a long time to get back to a healthy place. I'm seeing how this is about to happened to her all over again. She asked how I was doing and I said I was a disappointed. She wanted to know more about why and I went into me typical speech: I'm in this 100% for us, if you need your space I'll give it to you, and when you're ready to talk about us I'll be here to listen. She responded with the usual: I'm tried of fighting. I told her she should could reach me anytime and when she's ready to give me a call.

Got a text at 5a this morning saying she would be coming home this afternoon. She was suppose to go to a co-workers place. She asked that we don't fight since she's not sleeping, eating, and doing what she can just to get by. Hey I think I know what that's like 

If I had hard evidence I'd tell her no but I don't. All I have is one e-mail exchange that's flirtatious and probably not enough to go on. Instead, I'm going to say it's OK and let her come home and I'll continue to work on getting what I need that will give me the confidence to do what I need to do: expose her, then the OM, and then her parents.


----------



## keko

Good plan.

Act cool/calm when she's around you, nothing suspicious.


----------



## happyman64

Ypbpr,
You should tell her she is welcome home anytime and there will be no fighting as long as she is 100% honest with you.....
Her mom leaving her is very telling that her daughter is screwing another marriage up.

Do you think you know why her first marriage really went sour?

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Her mom leaving is her mom saying she first believe her either and she refused to help her. Maybe try calling the mom and ask her how she thinks your wife could have cheated like she has. Then listen to the response. If the mom isn't shocked by that, then you know the mom knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

My guess is that the the first H checked out of the relationship because of nice guy qualities. My W can be demanding and emasculate which can begin a lack of sexual interest. It happened to me. He probably got focused on his job and not on her. I would have to say she might have strayed in to an EA at some point in the marriage and then decided to leave. If that's true I would have to guess this was the extremely toxic relationship she had immediately after her marriage. She describes one post-marriage relationship as crazy. They got tattoos, drank all the time, etc. It's not something she discusses in great detail and it's also very trying for her. 

She just called after I texted back saying that I was OK with her coming home. She said she felt I was being distant and unsympathetic. Project much? I told her that wasn't the case. She asked what I was telling other people about us. I said I was only giving a couple close friends a very honest, unbiased story that my own faults in this marriage have come to the surface and it may be too little too late and that made me sad. 

She asked if she could see me when she came home and I said yes. Not sure what we'll talk about. I got the feeling she might want to make the separation official and I'll have to be OK. Playing it cool and continuing to monitor is the name of my game right now.


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> Her mom leaving is her mom saying she first believe her either and she refused to help her. Maybe try calling the mom and ask her how she thinks your wife could have cheated like she has. Then listen to the response. If the mom isn't shocked by that, then you know the mom knows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure I read that right. Are you saying her mom believed her until they all got together and then her mother knows it's now an A and is unwilling to help? 

I'd like to wait until I can have access to the VAR again to listen for clues. Drives to the sis's are long so there's lots of opportunity to talk, right? 

I can sense she's feeling guilty with all the questions about "What are you telling people?" She's trying to save face in this and put the "dissolvement" of us on me.


----------



## Eli-Zor

A couple of pointers:

Do not tell your wife what you are saying to other people , she is manipulating you and wants to cover her ass.
Call her mom and have a discussion, say your marriage is going through a difficult period, your wife is lying and you will not tolerate three people in your marriage . Say no more and excuse yourself .

Run the 180 pronto, don't blink , don't hesitate. Your wife knows she is up to no good, she does not know what you have on her, she is going to probe you and try make out your the bad guy.

The 180

The Healing Heart: The 180
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Don't agree to a seperation, it is a cover for her to act single and pretend that you agreed to it and that she is an available singleton. If she insists file for a D then call the OM's wife and give her a warning that your wife and her husband are exchanging flirtatious messages. Your not saying they are in an affair you are however giving the OM's wife the opportunity to verify her own position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

If she comes home, she sleeps on the couch. The bed is for faithful married people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Eli-zor is right. Do not agree to separation. Sje only wants one so she can sleep with the other man without guilt. Tell her that she has two choices: complete disclosure and transparency or divorce. Those are her options. 

I hate to use the term "man" up but you better grow a spine between now and the time she gets home. 

And by the way, do you believe she is where she says she is right now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Listen to these people. No separation, tat just you approving of her contined cheating while providing her with a backup plan.

Have her quit on Monday. Can you expose the OM in anyway? Such as to HR? Coworkers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Your posts give me the feeling that you think I have hard evidence. I do not. I need to have that evidence first. I need time to listen to the VAR to see if something was said on the phone. The only piece of evidence I have is one flirtatious e-mail that a cop and lawyer told me they felt did not have enough proof and could easily be described as witty corporate banter. 

FYI/ The OM is not married. He is single/divorced. 

Here's what I'm thinking: do not agree to separation, do not call mom yet. Buy more time playing the nice guy and get a chance to listen to the VAR. See if there's proof on there. If so, expose her, expose A to family, expose A to OM... ...180.


----------



## Eli-Zor

I read that you don't have hard proof however she is in contact with a man who is sending her flirtatious messages , men do not send married woman such messages unless they are encouraged to do so. I do agree that you look for more evidence however a VAR alone is not necessarily going to get the information. Spread you probes and find out what is going on , her behaviour has to many red flags .

The evidence is for you , not for a court of law or a lawyer , it is to give you a solid base as to your next steps. Your wife could be innocent or she is working hard to cover her tracks.

As for him being single, if he has children with his ex wife then tell her, the next targets would be his parents , friends and coworkers .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NotLikeYou

YPbPr said:


> My guess is that the the first H checked out of the relationship because of nice guy qualities. *My W can be demanding and emasculate which can begin a lack of sexual interest. *It happened to me. He probably got focused on his job and not on her. I would have to say she might have strayed in to an EA at some point in the marriage and then decided to leave. If that's true I would have to guess this was the extremely toxic relationship she had immediately after her marriage. She describes one post-marriage relationship as crazy. They got tattoos, drank all the time, etc. It's not something she discusses in great detail and it's also very trying for her.
> 
> *She just called after I texted back saying that I was OK with her coming home. She said she felt I was being distant and unsympathetic. *Project much? *I told her that wasn't the case.* She asked what I was telling other people about us. I said I was only giving a couple close friends a very honest, unbiased story that my own faults in this marriage have come to the surface and it may be too little too late and that made me sad.
> 
> *She asked if she could see me when she came home and I said yes.* Not sure what we'll talk about. I got the feeling she might want to make the separation official and I'll have to be OK. Playing it cool and continuing to monitor is the name of my game right now.


YPbPr, let me join others in expressing my sympathy for the situation you find yourself in.

In the title of this thread, you ask for guidance with exposure and execution of the 180. Some people have pointed out previously that you aren't doing the 180, and it is apparent that you are still working on the "Exposure" part of things.

Which is okay.

In reading your posts, the sentences I bolded above really jumped out at me.

Your need to nail down incontrovertible proof and continue to "play nice" while all this is going on strongly suggests that she has indeed emasculated you, emotionally and mentally. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. You're a man. While you can't dictate reality in the sense of "The road goes straight," when it curves around the mountain, you can definitely claim the position that "as my wife, you can't behave this way. If you do, you won't remain my wife."

The second part is where she texted, you responded (as usual, as predicted, as a faithful beta provider). Given the situation you are in, and the way your wife has been acting, you don't want to be boring and predictable. This is going to sound weird, but making yourself available to talk to her whenever the mood strikes her is not a good thing, and you do it 100% of the time. Independent of what else is going on between you two, you should stop being there to talk at her convenience any time she wants.

I didn't bold it, but your next sentence is "Project much," where you're being sarcastic, because SHE is the one that is cold and distant.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

That is EXACTLY where you want her to be, doofus! You WANT her focused on you, wondering what is going on in your mind! You keep making it all about her because she has taken your ballzez. And in the process, you keep having no ballzez of your own. You must reclaim those testes!

So she asks if she can see you when she comes home. Oooooh she wants to TALK TO ME! Sure, honey, we'll talk just as long as you want to. I'll tell you how much I love you and how much I want us to work out, you'll try not to vomit at how weak and boring I am, and you'll end up wondering why you even came over.

YPbPr, I'm going to suggest that you change one little thing about your wife coming over today. Why don't you take a little control of the situation, and give her the gift of missing you? If she makes any noise at all towards making the separation "official," instead of telling her how much you love her and want things to work out, agree with her that its a good idea. 

Tell her, I dunno, that you have a couple of "options" that you need some time to explore, yourself. Just leave it at that- "options." No details, no explanation, just agree with her that separation might do you both some good.

It's your life and your choices. Personal happiness and healthy control of your own destiny flows from the choices you make about yourself. It might be time to start making some different choices in your life!


----------



## OldWolf57

Why don't you just ask to see her phone. Say you are suspecious bc she never put it down like she used to do. Tell her that would relieve your unease. Although she may figure you will do this an delete before she comes home.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Not sure I read that right. Are you saying her mom believed her until they all got together and then her mother knows it's now an A and is unwilling to help?
> 
> I'd like to wait until I can have access to the VAR again to listen for clues. Drives to the sis's are long so there's lots of opportunity to talk, right?
> 
> I can sense she's feeling guilty with all the questions about "What are you telling people?" She's trying to save face in this and put the "dissolvement" of us on me.


I was wondering about that. But it's hard to tell what is going on from such a great distance.


----------



## turnera

You don't have to have proof to know that she is disrespecting you and the marriage. THAT is what you need to focus on. Either she commits to your marriage, or she moves out.

If she's as strong as you say, NOTHING LESS than this will work with her. She has to see you respecting YOURSELF. Only then will she respect you or want you.

You don't have to make this about cheating. Either she picks you or you divorce.


----------



## YPbPr

W came back from weekend early to be with me. Said she wanted to work on us but wants time and IC to work on resentment/anger issues. The VAR malfunctioned so I missed the opportunity to record several hours of travel time  I've fixed it and I'll continue to monitor while I work on me.


----------



## YPbPr

One more thing. All I have on the OM is his full name and work email. Spokeo isn't making that easy on me and Google searches also show nothing.


----------



## keko

Try zabasearch.com

Tried to get the phone backup?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

All the search sites give hundreds of results. I guess it's a very common name in a densely populated area. I've been using zaba and spokeo. Still no access to the phone.


----------



## keko

Following him after isn't an option?

Does your wife has any extra event planned this week?

Her asking for time her preparing to make the move, whether OM takes her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

I have no idea what the OM looks like so not sure how best I could follow. My W and I live about an hour (or more) away from where he may or may not live. He's certainly not in our county. 

W is meeting a mutual female friend this week. I think it would be very difficult for her to position this person as an alibi. I think it's a legit gathering of friends. 

Not sure my W is asking for more space/time to decide. I think my W is saying it's going to take some time to work on us. She is pro-MC. She has been talking about planned us events that are coming up in the future. She's asking me who and how I've been talking to friends about us which, to me, implies she's thinking about how our circles of friends (specifically mine) will perceive her in the future.


----------



## keko

Can you call OM's office during say lunch and ask for his cell?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Don't get false hope because she talks about MC and the future stuff. It's very common for WS to do that to buy time for the affair, to get the BS to settle down and back off, and to assuage their own feeling of having tried everything as s justification for the affair.

It's actually very common for WS to say I need time and MC while they have no intention of ending the affair. MC is about learning to be a more effective couple through better respect for each others views and needs and communicating without anger. It isn't an affair buster. It does cure the WS. That is why we say the MC only works if the WS is out of the affair and interested in working on it.

Consider hiring a pro to get his details. They tap a wider range of info sources like Lexus/nexus to find him often using his work email. They can also follow you wife to find him,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

OldWolf57 said:


> Why don't you just ask to see her phone. Say you are suspecious bc she never put it down like she used to do. Tell her that would relieve your unease. Although she may figure you will do this an delete before she comes home.


I wanted to quickly acknowledge that I did this during our horrible fight last week when I became accusatory and there was no giving it up due to the fact that there were private conversations with her family members that she didn't want to share. I know, suspicious but whatdya gonna do?

Speaking of that fight, she did remind me that I've spied in the past. Early in our relationship her ex wouldn't stop texting pleading for her to come back to him so I snooped and found the text messages and I also checked some e-mails and found another conversation going on with a different guy. Back then, she agreed to call the ex and put a formal/legal stop to it. She also said that the other e-mail I found was old. I figured out relationship was new then who cares either way. 

My point her is that during the fight she called me out for spying and I didn't really know how to respond. I said I had forgotten about that incident and not much more was said. 

I think I'm at this point: I believe she was/is genuinely resentful of me and started to tune me out. Then some external factors were came into her presence and she entertained them a bit. I'd say OK some dude(s) showed interest, work was getting more important and busier, and she decided to spend more time inside that world. If I give her the benefit of the doubt here, I'd say maybe she went out with OM behind my back and entertained life without me but has now come to her senses and it working on us instead working toward that.

Or, maybe it was a full-blown EA where she felt like she was dating again. Perhaps it was a PA. If either of these are the case, then I'm feeling as though she's being remorseful and trying desperately to put it behind her and work on us. 

It's difficult for me to say that she's buying more time given what I've seen. I truly believe either nothing happened and she's committed to us or something did happen and she wants to work on us. Only time will tell which is why I'll continue to monitor.


----------



## Shaggy

Does your WS drive to these things? Could you drop a GPS on her car ?t
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> Don't get false hope because she talks about MC and the future stuff. It's very common for WS to do that to buy time for the affair, to get the BS to settle down and back off, and to assuage their own feeling of having tried everything as s justification for the affair.
> 
> It's actually very common for WS to say I need time and MC while they have no intention of ending the affair. MC is about learning to be a more effective couple through better respect for each others views and needs and communicating without anger. It isn't an affair buster. It does cure the WS. That is why we say the MC only works if the WS is out of the affair and interested in working on it.
> 
> Consider hiring a pro to get his details. They tap a wider range of info sources like Lexus/nexus to find him often using his work email. They can also follow you wife to find him,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just want you to know I read this right after typing my post above.


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> Does your WS drive to these things? Could you drop a GPS on her car ?t
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. Do you have a recommendation?


----------



## Shaggy

Btw you respond to the reading snooping statement with: in marriage you don't have secrets like that. You don't have secret male friends and ongoing secrets with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Try brickhouse security.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Try brickhouse security.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm looking at the Super TrackStick. Any thoughts?


----------



## Shaggy

She's playing the game very well.

Dud you try getting onto her laptop with the link posted a few pages back? 

I think you just might need to hire a real PI here. Her travelling all the time gives her too much freedom for you to observe yourself.

She's locked down her email , phone, laptop and very effectively cut you out. She frankly may be getting coached on this stuff, there are boards like this for WS that help them pull this off.

A couple of this that have worked for others in the past:

Check out her car for a bag of affair stuff, like clothes, baby wipes, lube etc.
Check out what she's wearing, especially the underwear. Is it nicer when you think she's meeting up with him?
Get a home sperm test kit had check her panties after you think she may have met up.

Frankly, she is doing everything like clock work for someone in an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

Normally, I'm all for further investigation, especially in cases where there are children involved, financial and property assets on the line, it's a big decision to decide to R or D.

There are huge red flags showing in her behavior, complete with blameshifting, going away for days, heck, you even know the OMs name. Now if you want to continue to investigate, you would do well with hiring a PI too. But considering this is her behavior this early in the marriage?










Cut your losses and run. Seriously. It matters not if you have definitive proof, she's already disrespecting you and the marriage. She certainly doesn't act married at all. Again, she's acting this way so early in the marriage? You've been given a clear image of what the future of your marriage will be like. Add in children and property/assets in the future and see what that looks like. 

Let her go now. She's not marriage material, in fact, she's probably not ready for marriage, she just doesn't want to be alone.


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> She's playing the game very well.
> 
> Dud you try getting onto her laptop with the link posted a few pages back?


I'm shut out of the laptop. 



Shaggy said:


> I think you just might need to hire a real PI here. Her travelling all the time gives her too much freedom for you to observe yourself.


Noted




Shaggy said:


> Check out her car for a bag of affair stuff, like clothes, baby wipes, lube etc.
> 
> Check out what she's wearing, especially the underwear. Is it nicer when you think she's meeting up with him?


She goes to the gym everyday before work so there is her gym bag that contains everything you need. Over the last couple weeks, yes, I would say there were more clothes than normal in there. Like she was bringing options. When I thought they might be meeting last week I noted the better panties and even said hey those looks hot. Today I checked her overnight bag from her trip and I did find two pairs of panties that seemed showy to me. Also, everytime I think they might be meeting up this brand shirt gets put into the bag but never worn. It still has tags. She pulled it out last week and never work it. It was in her overnight bag and again it wasn't worn. There were also brand new matching socks in there, too. She also got her monthly while she was away so maybe she was headed to his place after seeing family and now she's pushed it back b/c she can't get physical?


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I'm looking at the Super TrackStick. Any thoughts?


That's not real time. So you have to remove it everyday to get the logs. Plus its expensive.

Try this it has free service for 3 months, Real Time GPS Car Tracker - 1st 3 Months Free - BrickHouse Exclusive Deal


----------



## Shaggy

Everyday before work? Has that been a long standing tradition with her or since she possible met him? I'm wondering if she's using part of gym time to call him or something?

I know he's an hour away, but that's only 1/2 hour each way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

There are like 3 gym affair threads just in the last few days.... justsayin


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> Everyday before work? Has that been a long standing tradition with her or since she possible met him? I'm wondering if she's using part of gym time to call him or something?


Long standing. It's part of her normal routine. 



Shaggy said:


> I know he's an hour away, but that's only 1/2 hour each way.


He could be in one two places so here's the breakdown.

First place
90 minutes one way from W's office
90 minutes one way from our home

Second place
60 minutes one way from W's office
60 minutes one way from our home

This is why if I feel that something might be about to go down, it would need to occur around a business meeting which would put by W in one of those two places. 



keko said:


> There are like 3 gym affair threads just in the last few days.... justsayin


She goes early in the morning and I've checked. She's there. I did get 24hrs of VAR recordings last week and they didn't reveal anything but what she said she was doing. The timings matched up for where she was supposed to be driving and not contact with anyone other than me way made.


----------



## Shaggy

Yeah PI this one along with the gps. 

All these over nights are real red flags too. This is why you need that PI nd gps soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Real-time GPS has been purchased. FWIW, there hasn't been any overnights other than one confirmed visit to her sis's. There was a planned business overnight that was cancelled and then she planned on going overnight again yesterday (co-worker) but cancelled that too. In both instances she came home.


----------



## keko

Let's say she goes somewhere she shouldn't during work hours? WIll you be able to drive there? Have a friend drive there? 

I'll remind you once again, if you get a moment with the phone in the open get the back ups. Lock the door if necessary and make up an excuse that you want to hide her phone, she's spending too much time on it, etc.


----------



## Shaggy

I wonder if her planned meetings and cancels are scheduling conflicts? Be prepared for the overnight that pops up suddenly and can't be missed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Hi everyone. I took a break from posting about my situation. I've been lurking though and reading other people's stories. I've also been continuing to read NGG and research my wife's issues, too.

Quick update: So I've been using the GPS tracking but all reports come in clean. Nothing out of the ordinary. The VAR on a technical level has been hit or miss. Sometimes it records and other times it doesn't. I've probably listened to 3-4 hours of recordings though and haven't heard her talk to anyone other than me. Since the VAR isn't dependable who knows if it's missing the conversation I need to hear.

I did have a big breakthrough though in terms of surveillance and I've achieved access to online bank and credit card records as well as access to her non-work e-mails. It does appear that some sort of cleanup was done and everything checks out here too. I did see one email from OM talking about some daily affirmation website. I was also able to obtain OM's personal e-mail address and his Facebook page (W is friends on FB with OM). Can't get any info from OM's Facebook page since we're not friends but it did give his town location. I cross-referenced his town listing on Facebook with his name on spokeo but there are no matches.

Still trying my damnedest to access her phone. No luck yet.

Wife continues IC and I found some of her notes from those sessions. Too much to get into her but it's probably what you might think: doesn't have emotion/feelings, insecure, need safety, etc. We had our first MC and that was so-so.

Well... Moments ago I got the work needs me to spend an overnight next week. I'm hiring a PI.


----------



## lordmayhem

There IS a way. PM if you want to find out. It worked for me. I won't discuss it in the open.


----------



## Shaggy

I wonder if she found the var and is turning it off when she talks to him? 

Do you have access to her phone records so you could match call times with her in the car. If you find her in the car, on a call, but the var not working - well you know something.

If this is the case, drop a second var under the other seat but keep the first there.


----------



## keko

Can you access her fb?


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> I wonder if she found the var and is turning it off when she talks to him?
> 
> Do you have access to her phone records so you could match call times with her in the car. If you find her in the car, on a call, but the var not working - well you know something.
> 
> If this is the case, drop a second var under the other seat but keep the first there.


I doubtful she found it. I just think the VAR is flaky. The login I found for her cell acc't doesn't work and I tried one too many time to force a lockout. I'm determined to download the data somehow this weekend. The app is ready and the cable is ready to. Just need 2 minutes with it.



keko said:


> Can you access her fb?


Not yet. I tried two different pwords today and didn't want to force a lockout. Maybe I'll try a couple more pwords tomorrow. 

I'm hiring a PI for next week's business trip. I'm sure that might be the tell-all.


----------



## jh52

YPbPr said:


> I doubtful she found it. I just think the VAR is flaky. The login I found for her cell acc't doesn't work and I tried one too many time to force a lockout. I'm determined to download the data somehow this weekend. The app is ready and the cable is ready to. Just need 2 minutes with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Not yet. I tried two different pwords today and didn't want to force a lockout. Maybe I'll try a couple more pwords tomorrow.
> 
> I'm hiring a PI for next week's business trip. I'm sure that might be the tell-all.


Hiring a PI is a good idea. Try and act as normal as possible when she leaves.


----------



## YPbPr

So question...

I'm of the opinion this could be an attempt to take the EA to PA. I'm guessing there might have been two attempts in the past that were thwarted. The first was perhaps my willingness to work on things and take advantage of her emotions and tug on here heart strings. I think a second attempt might have been made when she "left me" but she later came back. She also got her period at that time and a reaming from her parents so maybe that stopped her a second time.

So now this comes up again and attempts are being made. If this hasn't been a PA should I stop it before it does? Or, do I need to let this ride out and expect the worst. I've read how a lot people here had that gut feeling but didn't do anything and later wish they did. 

I don't have any hard evidence. I could present the idea that this week's new lingerie purchase has me concerned (I saw she bought lingerie on her bank records and then found the bag in her car to confirm). I would need to tell her I saw them in her car. Now she wants to go spend the night somewhere. I could also say I'm concerned that she's staying out with the company where her OM is. Thoughts?


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> So now this comes up again and attempts are being made. If this hasn't been a PA should I stop it before it does? Or, do I need to let this ride out and expect the worst. I've read how a lot people here had that gut feeling but didn't do anything and later wish they did.


Some would disagree with me but I would let it play out. If my wife can't decide what is right and wrong by herself, I will not police her for the rest of my life, F that.




> I don't have any hard evidence. I could present the idea that this week's new lingerie purchase has me concerned (I saw she bought lingerie on her bank records and then found the bag in her car to confirm). I would need to tell her I saw them in her car. Now she wants to go spend the night somewhere. I could also say I'm concerned that she's staying out with the company where her OM is. Thoughts?


Keep your eyes on the GPS if she has to stay late for work.


----------



## turnera

Is she doing something that makes you think she will take it to the next level?


----------



## PHTlump

It depends on what you want. If you're looking for an excuse to divorce her, then let it go physical and then walk away. Otherwise, I would try to stop it.

Just confront her with the lingerie. Tell her that you're obviously worried about her commitment to the marriage. That you saw the lingerie bag. The lingerie is obviously not for you. And now, with her overnight trip, it looks like she's making a date.

She'll probably deny it. But, you just keep saying that it looks bad. If she wants to prove her loyalty, then tell her to hand over her unlocked phone immediately.

Good luck.


----------



## baldmale

For f***'s sake, stop it if you can. How to do that, hmmm... dunno that. But I sure wish I had stopped my wife before. That PA will be a struggle for me the rest of my life. Well, as long as we stay married at least.


----------



## Shaggy

Seriously do everything to c-ck block them that you can. Everything, the PA just takes it to a new level of hurt.

I would bring up the lingerie point blank, heck if you can just go to her car and retrieve the bag. and then confront her. Plan B would be to swipe the lingerie, and leave a note in it's place "So looking forward to this when I get home!"

What's with this overnight trip? How has she arranged it and what is her cover story?


----------



## the guy

Go with her on the over night trip and tell you want time together.

or

Confront her now with what you do have and tell her that if she takes this trip you consider her abandoning the family and will sue OM (use his name) for allination of affection. 

You could have a good chance of b*llsh*ting your way into a admision when you confront her. Start taking all that you have and put a small story together that will lead her to believes you know more then you really do. Do you have enough to pull this off?

That trip IMHO is the dead line here, I would shift into hi gear and get a PI now and gather as much as you can to make her think you know everything before she leaves.

How much time do you have before the trip?

Is the nighty common knowledge or is she still hidding it from you and you just saw the bag or bill? I ask b/c pulling out the night from her case after she packs and confront her then.

She then can make the choice to call work and tell them she has an extrem family emergience and can't go...or she goes and you pack the rest of her crap up and tell her she is no longer welcome and she will have nothing her when she returns.

IS this even a real work trip? have you called her boss to see if you can join her. Can you call work and ask for the trip info? can you bring this up in small talk if you were to run into a coworkers of hers?


----------



## Shaggy

Or show up at hotel just after she arrives and say surprise honey, I'm here to keep you company. (didn't want you to be lonely, or get cold in your new lingerie)


----------



## the guy

How far away is the trip?

1st order of business is finding all you can on the work trip...if it even a work trip?

You might be able to confront with a combination of redflags but there no for sure bet that it would be effective.

Again this trip is the "line in the sand" IMHO


----------



## stedfin

If you ask her about the lingerie she'll just say she got it as a surprise for you or its a gift for a friend, you will gain nothing. If she's going to this level of deception and you've gone to such great lengths to track her, spy on her, and obtain information it might be time to throw in the towel. Just doesn't seem worth it anymore.


----------



## the guy

My thinking is if OP finds it in her suit case then its another red flag to add to the list when he confronts. WW may have told OP about the nighty but if not then this with a combination of red flags may lead to a admmission.

An admission that my break up this affair, and we can aggree that until OM is completely out of the picture the affair fog will effect the dynamics of the marriage and it getting repaired after the infidelity issue is resolved.


----------



## Will_Kane

If the physical affair will bother you a lot more than the emotional affair, don't let it happen without a fight. You can't undo it once it happens, then you have to live with it and you'll always wonder if you could have stopped it.

I don't understand your need for proof.

Your wife is having a relationship and texts with another man that you are uncomfortable with.

Tell her all of the reasons you suspect her. Go through this thread, and everytime you find an incident or circumstance here that made you suspect something, write it down. Make a list. Then sit down with your wife and show her that list. Ask her, honestly, if the roles were reversed, wouldn't she be suspicious? Wouldn't any normal person be suspicious? You have a hundred people posting here that all agree it's suspicious, I don't think I read a single post that said your suspicions are completely baseless. 

If your wife doesn't think there is anything suspicious in her behavior, that in and of itself is yet another huge red flag. If she does agree that it's suspicious, then she will understand why you must insist that she not stay overnight on business with the other man right now, why she must discontinue her flirty relationship with him, and why she must let you see her texts and emails. She might not like it, but she will understand the reason for it. 

Given these circumstances, a normal person would allow access and agree to stop the offending behavior. If she refuses, consider filing for divorce. (Not much of a loss based on your posts here. From your posts, I don't know what you see in her. You don't describe any good qualities, even from when before the affair started.)

Did you not go into the marriage with the same vows that everyone else did? Did you not expect to share your entire LIFE together? If so, how do you explain your wife claiming the right to have secrets in email accounts and text messages with other men?


----------



## iheartlife

I agree with Will. 

YPbPr, you've tried to gather more evidence to confront because you felt you didn't have enough and because you didn't want it to go further underground. That is standard advice on this forum as you know. After quite a lot of attempts you still do not have much more than you started out with, but you still have plenty.

do your best not to reveal your sources, but that may be something you have to forego since you weren't able to gather more proof in other ways.

Don't let her go turn this into a PA if it isn't one yet.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond. W came home from work last night and moments later said she didn't have to go away for the night. WTF? Needless to say I'm pleased but I think I'm officially on the emotional rollercoaster. As usual, I'll continue to monitor and see if anything unusual occurs.

Not sure if I mentioned this earlier but, after our huge blowout, W came home committed to working on the marriage and said any extraneous emotions she might have had last month are over. I'm wondering if she kept up the EA for a month or two and then realized she needed to end it in order to work on us. If I put faith in her, and believe this to be true, then she might be trying to do this but work might force her to engage with OM making it hard.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond. W came home from work last night and moments later said she didn't have to go away for the night. WTF? Needless to say I'm pleased but I think I'm officially on the emotional rollercoaster. As usual, I'll continue to monitor and see if anything unusual occurs.
> 
> Not sure if I mentioned this earlier but, after our huge blowout, W came home committed to working on the marriage and said any extraneous emotions she might have had last month are over. I'm wondering if she kept up the EA for a month or two and then realized she needed to end it in order to work on us. If I put faith in her, and believe this to be true, then she might be trying to do this but work might force her to engage with OM making it hard.


Well--this is why her working with the OM is a recipe for perpetual limbo for you. "Maybe" everything is off and they aren't an item. "Maybe" he got a herpes flare and they decided to wait a few weeks.

The reason that you eventually have to call the affair on the carpet is that right now, she is in the driver's seat. She can go left, right, forward, or backward, and you have to continue to pretend to be your usual husband self. Personally, I'd crack under that strain and my self-esteem would be in the negative numbers.

Wait for more evidence if you must, but at some point you have to crack this open.


----------



## turnera

Are you two in therapy?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Are you sure that she didnt found the VAR? So to cool you off for some time she is acting fine.


----------



## lordmayhem

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Are you sure that she didnt found the VAR? So to cool you off for some time she is acting fine.


That's my thinking also, seeing as how she searches her vehicle. Either she's an experienced cheater that knows all the tricks, or she's being coached by OM, or has looked on the internet on how to keep an affair secret.


----------



## keko

What if she has a keylogger on your computer and watching us here?


----------



## YPbPr

turnera said:


> Are you two in therapy?


Yes. 



keko said:


> What if she has a keylogger on your computer and watching us here?


She doesn't.


----------



## YPbPr

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Are you sure that she didnt found the VAR? So to cool you off for some time she is acting fine.


I could never know that but I'm confident she didn't.


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> Thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond. W came home from work last night and moments later said she didn't have to go away for the night. WTF? Needless to say I'm pleased but I think I'm officially on the emotional rollercoaster. As usual, I'll continue to monitor and see if anything unusual occurs.
> 
> Not sure if I mentioned this earlier but, after our huge blowout, W came home committed to working on the marriage and said any extraneous emotions she might have had last month are over. I'm wondering if she kept up the EA for a month or two and then realized she needed to end it in order to work on us. If I put faith in her, and believe this to be true, then she might be trying to do this but work might force her to engage with OM making it hard.


I'm not sure of the timeline but could she have seen how you were reacting to the news she was going to be out of town. Does she think you may be approaching the point of no return?

How are your daily interactions going? Is she affectionate, any I love yous?


----------



## Chaparral

A few days ago, a poster bought an olympus brand VAR and said it worked perfectly. Battery lasted a long time and it records many hours. He said it costs about 99 dollars. Good luck.


----------



## YPbPr

chapparal said:


> I'm not sure of the timeline but could she have seen how you were reacting to the news she was going to be out of town. Does she think you may be approaching the point of no return?
> 
> How are your daily interactions going? Is she affectionate, any I love yous?


She mentioned she was going for the overnight via e-mail and asked I re-sched MC. I said I would look call the MC and didn't even acknowledge the overnight. So there was no way for her to gauge my reaction.

The I love you's aren't always but we had sex Friday night.

My guess is she had something going on and now she's decided to end it and she working on us but guess what...

I got access to the phone so expect an epic post tomorrow. Get your popcorn ready


----------



## OldWolf57

So what !! All you are going to do is rollover again. I gave up on your thread when you used the need to know, and I'm hanging to spy xcuse. Just admit you are afraid to be on your on, so we will know how to try an help you.


----------



## YPbPr

You're taking the position of move on when a lot of recommendations on this board suggested I gather evidence and then (if EA or PA exists)...

-NC letter
-Complete transparency
-Expose to friends and family
-Therapy, etc

Of course I'm afraid to be one my own but I also can't feel goof about leaving without knowing I did everything to make it work.

So yesterday I accessed the phone via the advice I received in this thread. Amazing advice. Thank you. Nothing in-you-face that expose sex but lots of conversation with W's friends discussing feelings for other guy, feelings for me, etc. She's told some of her colleagues, personal friends, and even one of my friend's W. 

It also appeared that there was some failed attempted meet-ups. Looks like he stood her up once and then she recently chickened out of a meeting. 

There was also a text to colleague on the night she came home at midnight say, "I f*cked up." Also, the VAR picked up a phone call with OM. No I love yous or anything very intimate. Just conversation. Super boring convo if you ask me.

It appears she maintained an EA for last month of two and is now in the process of trying to end it. My guess is there was a hook up or two in there. I mean why else progress this thing so far?

So I called her out on it last night. Caught her in a lie when I asked who it was. Once I dropped his name everything changed. Like our last argument W got defensive and argumentative. Once I said I'd call the attorney tomorrow and file she changed her tune a bit. She hasn't come clean or out with everything but I'm seeing remorse for the first time. I originally asked for transparency during her defensive stage and she said no. After the reference of D she started considering it.

I'm going to see hoe she responds to the NC letter and transparency tonight. We have MC scheduled for Thursday at which point I will expose everything I know (without revealing sources). She wants to have MC at her IC's office which I think would be and OK place to expose. Thank I can gauge how effective her IC is.


----------



## bandit.45

Quit moving so fast.

First off, tell her she needs to come clean with everything. Tell her you know more than what she is teling you and you might even go so far to say that you have proof the affair went physical and that if what she tells you does not match up with the evidence you have, then the convo is over and you will get the ball rolling on divorce tomorrow. Bluff her as much as you feel you can.

Do not forgive her!.... yet. Tell her the marriage is on hold and she is on probation for the indefinite future. She WILL go tpo IC and MC with you. She WILL write a no contact letter, let you approve it, and send it to the OM in your presence. She WILL, hand over all cell phone and computer access passwords and she WILL hand you her cell phone whenever you ask to see it.

No more male friends, no more GNOs, no more working late hours, she calls you when she leaves somewhere and when she gets somewhere. Don't ask if she will do these things, tell her she will do these things. If she balks, ask her to pack her bags and leave and that you will have her served with divorce papers.

You need to get mean with this woman and quit fooling around.


----------



## happyman64

Y,

I would wait until Thursday about the No Contact.

Wait and see if your wife opens up to you anymore over the next few days. I think it will be enlightening for you.

You took the 1st shot.

Be quiet, watch and listen. These moments will unnerve her if she is remorseful or has guilty feelings.

Be the strong quiet type for the next few days.


That is my two cents!

HM64


----------



## turnera

Yeah, refuse to talk about any of it until Thursday unless you want to ask her if she's ready to write a NC letter. If she says no, then say 'I have nothing to say to you then' and walk away.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> There was also a text to colleague on the night she came home at midnight say, "I f*cked up."


Was this the day she smelled old spice?


----------



## the guy

If you got a boring convo on the VAR with OM and WW it mostly confirms this A has taken its course. So the good thing the OM will soon be out of the picture IMHO. But who knows, so stay vigalent.

Print out some random divorce forms off the internet or makes some up on Words and have them with you when you talk tonite. A nice tactic that may scare her straight. It seems you have her on the run with the divorce. If she aggrees to NC and transparency, then rip those forms up. If she does not aggree then expose the hell out of this affair and fill.

I have a feeling she will call your bluff tonite, but I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Chaparral

I would not dierectly say I know you had sex with the OM unless you absolutely know for sure. That could kill your cred. You can strongly imply it however, even say I know you ****ed up.

In the convo you heard, did the OM sound romantic at all? It sounds like a convo an established couple would have.


----------



## Chaparral

the guy said:


> If you got a boring convo on the VAR with OM and WW it mostly confirms this A has taken its course. So the good thing the OM will soon be out of the picture IMHO. But who knows, so stay vigalent.
> 
> Print out some random divorce forms off the internet or makes some up on Words and have them with you when you talk tonite. A nice tactic that may scare her straight. It seems you have her on the run with the divorce. If she aggrees to NC and transparency, then rip those forms up. If she does not aggree then expose the hell out of this affair and fill.
> 
> I have a feeling she will call your bluff tonite, but I hope I'm wrong.


You may be able to download and print out a divorce packet online. Some areas you have to pick one up at the county courthouse.

How did she describe her feelings for you and the OM?

Good luck


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks all. She came home and started a conversation about us. I was very calm and listened but she opened right up and said she doesn't have it in her to continue. Then she really started questioning how I had the intel I had.

I stood my ground and calmly state I simply knew what I knew. She said I must have looked at her things like cell phone, email, or computer. I'll admit... It's sort of hard to just keep saying I know what I know. Any ideas of what else I might say to that?

Well... I told her about NC and complete transparency. Her argument is that how can she offer me that when I can't be honest and offer my sources. Again. "I know what I know."

So, I asked to her to leave. She said no. I asked again if there was a friend she might be able to stay with. No. Then I offered to put her up in a local hotel. She said no. She got petty at couple moments when divorce came up. She said she wasn't going to leave the house and might fight me for it if we split up. Not sure how she could actually do that - we rent — but later she agreed to staying in the guest room.

She insists nothing physical happen with OM. She insists she's stopped the emotional relationship. I asked when the last time she spoke to him and she said today. I explained to that she could never get her head clear until he was out of the picture. 

What's my next course of action here? I'll be checking in here and there throughout the night.


----------



## happyman64

Y,



> I was very calm and listened but she opened right up and said she doesn't have it in her to continue. Then she really started questioning how I had the intel I had.


What does she mean when she says she does not have it in her to continue??? Fighting??? The Marriage???

You were right about not revealing your sources.

You were also right about her attitude not changing until she goes No Contact.

Keep fighting for your marriage Y.

HM64


----------



## Shamwow

You did good, same thing happened when I confronted, the irrational stonewall is hard to face. You can just calmly say "don't turn this around on me. I'm making a valid demand as your husband." and then just stand there and wait for her to react. If she doesn't, you could just say "I see", then excuse yourself and leave for a while to let her think. Stay strong...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Tell her "it's YOUR (her) actions we're discussing here." as long as you do it without emotion it will start to take effect. Don't argue or react, as a wise poster said to me once: be Mr. Spock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Dont ever reveal your sources, if you think you're going to slip just run out of the room.

Her questioning your intel more then the marriage itself speaks alot of what she see's you as.


----------



## the guy

Jesus christ. this women is about to lose her marriage and she is concerned about the intel, IDK why the A fog still surprises me after so many posts I've done.

the rent thing is so afffair fog it stinks.

Tell her you paid alot of many for the intel and give her a biz card for some random PI.

Right now she doesn't get it. She realy doesn't get it, you have to play hard ball until the shift in power can accures.

She is going to lose her marriage and she is just so damb fogged in. File get her served even if it some half ass paper work. 

I can't remember are all your account seperate if not close them or freeze them. This is the perfect time to give her a taste of the reality to come.

Ask your lanlord if you can give a thirty day notice and retract/ withdraw it in a few days. Talk to the landlord and see if they can help you in bringing your WW out of her fog.

So guys I'm in a bad place..I seem to be triggering IDK


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks again. Feels good to assume control. Shes on the couch and I'm upstairs in the bedroom enjoying tv and being relaxed  shes already come in once to say she's open to navigating this through MC later in the week. So ill give her that. When should i tell her mother? Wait until MC and see how that goes? That won't be for a few days. 

To answear a question above, most of the time she says she doesn't have it in to continue with the fighting, analyzing the psychology etc. Tonight i felt she meant in that she didn't have it in her to work on us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Came in a third time. Guess she talked to her sister (also wayward). She's going to her sisters for the weekend. Big deal. Tried to ask if MC was still on. she doesn't know what she wants. She said she's uncomfortabe withnme making these demands and thinks it's about power. It may be soemwhat but i said this is what needs to happen for trust be rebuilt and its not about the assumption of power.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> Came in a third time. Guess she talked to her sister (also wayward). She's going to her sisters for the weekend. Big deal. Tried to ask if MC was still on. she doesn't know what she wants. She said she's uncomfortabe withnme making these demands and thinks it's about power. It may be soemwhat but i said this is what needs to happen for trust be rebuilt and its not about the assumption of power.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right there...she showed you her hand: Power... that's what this whole game is to her. Talk about transferrence!

Keep at it brother. You are doing good. Make her squirm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

YPbPr said:


> Came in a third time. Guess she talked to her sister (also wayward). She's going to her sisters for the weekend. Big deal. Tried to ask if MC was still on. she doesn't know what she wants. She said she's uncomfortabe withnme making these demands and thinks it's about power. It may be soemwhat but i said this is what needs to happen for trust be rebuilt and its not about the assumption of power.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah the power which means control which means you keep blocking her doing what she wants to do.

You need to verify that she actually is going to her sisters and not using it as a cover to meet the OM. 

Here's what I think she's dealing with: you keep c-blocking her and she's annoyed. The OM keeps asking to meet up and you keep making it hard for her.

So she's stumped. She wants to try out the OM better for a fit before she gives up the security you offer her. I predict she will try very soon to try him on for size.

Be on the watch for that. A GPS on the car would be useful at this time.


As for her questions on how you know anything - good job not revealing. She obviously wants to know because: 1) She wants to know what you've seen; 2) She wants to know which ways of communicating to shutdown.

If she can't choose you over the OM on the spot, then inform her you will be filing. No husband should ever compete for his wife's loyalty - ever.


----------



## happyman64

I agree with Shaggy. She is going to try OM on for size. 

Time for D papers. That is your last shot.

She wants the control. Time to show her up. You are not her Plan B.

Tell her to have a great time this weekend and go see an attorney now.

Your wife is a coward!

Do not let her turn this on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Hmmm going to a wayward sisters house for the weekend, try to get the most recent phone back up. Likely she is in the process of planning something hence the constant change of heart/questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks for the tip about the gps. I removed it thinking i wouldn't need it anymore since i had enough intel. Ill admit, im paranoid about putting the var back in but I guess i could do that as well. 

I really believe she shut her EA down. I saw txts and emails about it but he def resurfaces and she continues to see him thru work so anything could happen. Shell be back at his company tomorrow for an all day event and then the group is headed out after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Would it be wise for me to say something tovher before i leave tomorrow? Something like: don't make any decisions that would detriment our marriage today. Or does that release power to her? Should I out my toys in place and just let the chips fall where they may? I feel like a need to be proactive about tomorrow as much as the weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

One question, on the day you suspected her of it going physical did you notice anything different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

She came home late one night and apologized profusely. It was weird but she kept saying she felt bad for working so late. This morning I saw a txt to her coworker from that night saying she f*cked up. 

There was another night she came home and smelled different and then acted pensive all night and eventually went to bed feeling sick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Are you willing to forgive her after those?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Shamwow said:


> You did good, same thing happened when I confronted, the irrational stonewall is hard to face. You can just calmly say "don't turn this around on me. I'm making a valid demand as your husband." and then just stand there and wait for her to react. If she doesn't, you could just say "I see", then excuse yourself and leave for a while to let her think. Stay strong...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This is very good. It helps you remember that YOU are the victim here, SHE is the bad guy who fired you, and you owe her NOTHING. Not even an answer. Not until she comes to you with utter transparency, a NC letter that YOU send, and asking you how she can make it up to you.

Until then she is just spewing more fogbabble. Ignore it all.

She has stopped the emotional connection, and the last contact was today...right...:rofl:


----------



## YPbPr

Doubtful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

When do i expose to parents?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

How much effect would exposing it to her mom have on her?

Are you going to wait until the weekend to see if she does it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

keko said:


> Her questioning your intel more then the marriage itself speaks alot of what she see's you as.


This reminds me of a letter I sent once to the head of my husband's company, when the company was full of thieves, liars, and worse - including said head guy who was doing some pretty bad things, AND the company was going under. I sent it anonymously because I didn't want DH to get in trouble. Guess what the head of the company did? Instead of looking into the actual intel, that his company was being run into the ground and he had maybe one chance to save it, he went on a witchhunt, convinced that one of his employees had sent the letter. He cared more about who sent that letter than about saving his company. It closed within a year.

Ever since then, I've paid a lot of attention to what people do regarding intel. And I've proven out that, to a man, those who are doing something wrong care MORE about how someone found out they're doing wrong than about what's going on.

When she stops asking, you may have a chance to save your marriage.


----------



## YPbPr

I'm sort of concerned she could get extremely proactive tomorrow and do something but there nothi i can do as im away for day. i know exposing it to her mom would get her mom on my side. I saw firsthand how her parents reacted to her sisters wayward tendencies and they do not support it at all. I'm not certain my w has told her mom about om. I know her sister knows but i don't think they're telling their mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Can you place the VAR/GPS in her car tonight?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks tuner. Sage words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

I can place var/gps tomorrow am before i leave
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> She said she's uncomfortabe withnme making these demands and thinks it's about power.


Of course she is. Of course she does. SHE doesn't want YOU having power over her continuing to get her fix of OM.

Ignore it all. Go to MC; if she shows up, she shows up. If she doesn't, call her mom and let her know it all.


----------



## turnera

And remember that, right now, your main job is Tough Love. You're dealing with a drug addict and, like any drug addict, the only way to get them to care more about real life than their drug is to help them face consequences. She either does it your way (NC, transparency, etc.) or she loses you. That's her consequence. TOTALLY in her control - she can have OM...or she can have you (for a while, until you are done).

It really is that simple.


----------



## turnera

If they continue to see each other because of work, you will have to take this a step further. You will have to say 'If you want to stay married to me, you will either have to get OM out of the company, change your work so that you will NEVER run the risk of running into him again, or you will have to quit this job. I am NOT willing to stay married to you if it involves you ever seeing OM again. Now, what will you do?'


----------



## turnera

Have you asked her to write him a NC letter yet?


----------



## Shaggy

I would say something before tomorrow, though the real issue is that she seems to have crossed the line before. I don't see how the marriage will ever recover until you find out what she meant by he fvck up comment.

I can't help but feeling her leaving is a really bad idea, given the sister being a wayward is clearly going be encouraging her to find a way to cheat and giving her help.

Get that gos and var back there ASAP. I really think you should be having done one watch her when she is out with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

We've discussed nc and vie been really honest with her saying i understand how complicated it is. She's a big shot at her company, she oversees every account, he's a client, the company is financially dependent on this client. Is very complicated. Ivsaid to her tonight she would need to initiate a nc call with me listening and say it has to end. That would be a good first step. She did not do that tonight. 

I guess i could ask her about the ****ed up comment but she might harp on how do you know that? Then shell use an excuse. 

I know she was on the phone with her sis crying tonight and I know they offer to host her. She went once and came home 24 hours later. Tracked and confirmed thats what really happened. I think shell go up there but I def consider she might try a meet up after. 

Not sure how i can get someone to watch her tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Personally, I'd prefer seeing you hire a reputable PI.


----------



## turnera

Got any friends who aren't working tomorrow night? Offer to pay them $50 to follow her. With a camera.


----------



## keko

Is she going spread her legs for every client?

She needs some serious help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Come to think of it, i could go down there myself in the afternoon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Come to think of it, i could go down there myself in the afternoon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would. It's a bummer but not a shocker that she is choosing to keep company with her toxic sister just now.

BTW, her saying that this is a power play is another way of implying that you are "controlling." And "controlling" is the typical WW's very favorite way of exercising control over the situation and her loyal husband. I'm sure, after enjoying the upper hand in this for quite some time, she is plenty irritated and resentful at ceding "control."



YPbPr said:


> Well... I told her about NC and complete transparency. Her argument is that how can she offer me that when I can't be honest and offer my sources.


Like everyone else, I find this interesting. She WORKS with the guy. That is a proper come back--how is she going to prove NC when she works with him. Well, the answer is, she can't. But I don't see how your "sources" have _anything_ to do with this. What a classic case of deflection and blame-shifting. 

Oh, and I got a good laugh out of how she was going to keep a RENTED house. She's been watching too many movies :rofl:

I've felt from the very beginning that her inability to cut contact with him due to the work relationship was a very serious issue. It's all fine and well to set boundaries and maybe even get her to sincerely agree. But part of the point of no contact is _to remove the temptation of the AP altogether_. Even a very sincere WS who truly wants R may succumb in a moment of weakness. NC isn't just an exercise to make the BS feel better. It's a Chinese Wall (in legal parlance) that's intended to help the WS emerge from the compulsion of the affair. I just don't see how you can request NC, but still keep the contact for professional purposes, and _not_ keep the affair. :scratchhead:


----------



## YPbPr

Really concerned about today/tonight activity. I checked we calendar and she is at clients company all day. Even has one hour meeting om. She's taking his team out after work. I have his number now. Thinking about calling OM this afternoon telling him I know ad to find other plans for tonight. Before I left house I said to W don't do anything today that detrimental to our marriage and I he felt she might she should call me first. Of courses said not to worry an I said you're going to see him today and anything could happen. She mumbled some stuff hinting I might know something but I ignored it. 

Now m driving fr three hours alone with my thoughts an freaking out a little. Thinking about calling one of ym friends who he decided to confide in. I know this woman is a positive influence and maybe she can help. Thinking about calling W mom too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

I wouldn't get too many people involved.... yet. Keep your eyes in the GPS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

The gps won't tell me much for tonight. I'm trying to stop an act it's tonight which is why I considering calling OM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

You already told your wife not to do anything that'll damage the marriage. Other then handcuffing her not much you can do. You know she cheated but you don't have enough evidence to convince others if you expose too soon. 

I doubt the OM will take your call serious but it's worth a shot, if you do prepare yourself for when the wife finds out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should call the OM. I would be very cold and direct. Ask him what your wife meant when she said she ****ed up with him? Tell him you know whats going on and if anything else happens you will out him to his company, family, and put him on cheaterville.com. And you know where he lives.

Just my opinion


----------



## happyman64

I agree with Chap. Threaten his job and reputation. And if it really bothers you just show up tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

iheartlife said:


> I've felt from the very beginning that her inability to cut contact with him due to the work relationship was a very serious issue. It's all fine and well to set boundaries and maybe even get her to sincerely agree. But part of the point of no contact is _to remove the temptation of the AP altogether_. Even a very sincere WS who truly wants R may succumb in a moment of weakness. NC isn't just an exercise to make the BS feel better. It's a Chinese Wall (in legal parlance) that's intended to help the WS emerge from the compulsion of the affair. I just don't see how you can request NC, but still keep the contact for professional purposes, and _not_ keep the affair. :scratchhead:


Just bringing this forward, it was at the end of my long post above. I'm sorry if you've asked and answered this. What is your long term plan for this problem, which goes to the core of the affair?


----------



## YPbPr

My plan is do everything u can to end the affair and attempt reconciliation. There's no polaroid she intercourse and I'm doubtful she did. I can move past an EA and work on our marriage. That said, creating nc is going to be difficult. I'm aware of the career issues for her and I also understand a good wife would do anything. Shes so deep in the fog right now it's almost impossible for her to think clearly and do what's right. I'm trying to break that fantasy down and ground her again. If I can't here there I'm done. If I can get we there and she can't comply I'm done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> I have his number now. Thinking about calling OM this afternoon telling him I know ad to find other plans for tonight.


By all means call him. Tell him that she SAID she has chosen you, not him, so you are moving forward under that assumption, and that any proof you find out otherwise, you are going to assume it's HIS fault and you will now start focusing on exposing HIS actions.


----------



## turnera

chapparal said:


> I think you should call the OM. I would be very cold and direct. Ask him what your wife meant when she said she ****ed up with him? Tell him you know whats going on and if anything else happens you will out him to his company, family, and put him on cheaterville.com. And you know where he lives.
> 
> Just my opinion


I agree. Most men who screw married women CHOOSE married women cos they're easy and cannot get easily attached. The first time the husband puts a crimp in his style, they usually run.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> My plan is do everything u can to end the affair and attempt reconciliation. There's no polaroid she intercourse and I'm doubtful she did. I can move past an EA and work on our marriage. That said, creating nc is going to be difficult. I'm aware of the career issues for her and I also understand a good wife would do anything. Shes so deep in the fog right now it's almost impossible for her to think clearly and do what's right. I'm trying to break that fantasy down and ground her again. If I can't here there I'm done. If I can get we there and she can't comply I'm done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 All the more reason to now attack HIM. He will drop her like a lead balloon once you make his life difficult. That will allow the 'fog' to dissipate; once the fog/drug is gone, WWs often see clearly and realize they've been had, and come back to the husband mentally.


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> I stood my ground and calmly state I simply knew what I knew. She said I must have looked at her things like cell phone, email, or computer. I'll admit... It's sort of hard to just keep saying I know what I know. Any ideas of what else I might say to that?


You can tell her that it's not important how you know. Or, you can tell her that the only reason you can think of for her insistence on knowing your sources of information is so she can better hide either this affair, or future affairs. Refuse to allow her to put you on the defensive. This isn't about you or your investigative sources. It's about her betrayal of your marriage. Until she wants to talk about that, there's nothing to discuss.



YPbPr said:


> Well... I told her about NC and complete transparency. Her argument is that how can she offer me that when I can't be honest and offer my sources. Again. "I know what I know."


I think your response is that she has two choices. Transparency or divorce. And she doesn't get a month of staying with her sister and half a dozen dates of goodbye sex with the OM in order to transition back to her married life with you. She should decide, within a few days at most, whether she wants to be married to you.



YPbPr said:


> What's my next course of action here? I'll be checking in here and there throughout the night.


I think you keep the pressure up. If you don't give her a deadline, give yourself one. Go to MC with her with an agenda. You shouldn't be interested (yet) in why she cheated. You should be interested in getting a clear commitment from her, in words and action, that she is willing to take responsibility for her actions, apologize sincerely for damaging your marriage, and give you complete transparency. Otherwise, start the divorce proceedings. It's one or the other. She can't give you a little transparency or a little remorse.

Good luck.


----------



## lordmayhem

YPbPr said:


> Really concerned about today/tonight activity. I checked we calendar and she is at clients company all day. Even has one hour meeting om. She's taking his team out after work. I have his number now. Thinking about calling OM this afternoon telling him I know ad to find other plans for tonight. Before I left house I said to W don't do anything today that detrimental to our marriage and I he felt she might she should call me first. Of courses said not to worry an I said you're going to see him today and anything could happen. She mumbled some stuff hinting I might know something but I ignored it.
> 
> Now m driving fr three hours alone with my thoughts an freaking out a little. Thinking about calling one of ym friends who he decided to confide in. I know this woman is a positive influence and maybe she can help. Thinking about calling W mom too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is the OM married or has a GF? I don't know if you want to contact the OM at this point, it usually doesn't do any good, and besides, he'll deny it anyway. It would be better to expose the A to his BW or BGF. If he's such a big client for your WWs company, that means he's got money and assets to lose in a potential divorce. Therefore, he will quickly throw your WW under the bus in an effort to save his marriage/relationship.


----------



## YPbPr

Quickly... OM is either single or divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Also... What some responses I can have ready when and if OM contacts my W about me calling him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

This is outrageous that your wife's company is paying her to take the OM out on the town!

Is your wife in drug sales to doctors? I'm wondering what kind of industry routinely has married women taking guys out on the town partying and drinking?


----------



## Shaggy

YPbPr said:


> Also... What some responses I can have ready when and if OM contacts my W about me calling him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could deny, saying the OM must be crazy!


----------



## keko

Denying it has a problem, what if he shows her the phone records?


----------



## turnera

lordmayhem said:


> Is the OM married or has a GF? I don't know if you want to contact the OM at this point, it usually doesn't do any good, and besides, he'll deny it anyway. It would be better to expose the A to his BW or BGF. If he's such a big client for your WWs company, that means he's got money and assets to lose in a potential divorce. Therefore, he will quickly throw your WW under the bus in an effort to save his marriage/relationship.


It won't hurt - and MAY help - to contact him, too. But do look for his important people (and boss).


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> Also... What some responses I can have ready when and if OM contacts my W about me calling him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 "Wife, REALLY? You are going to criticize YOUR HUSBAND for telling your AFFAIR PARTNER to leave your WIFE alone? What are you smoking?"


----------



## turnera

Time to show your strength. LEAD your family. It's what women want and what they find attractive.


----------



## YPbPr

Thx as always. I'm gonna call this afternoon. Fwiw, wife is not in drug sales.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

YPbPr said:


> Also... What some responses I can have ready when and if OM contacts my W about me calling him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or you could giver her the patented Tommy Lee Jones look:










It usually works for me.


----------



## YPbPr

Spoke directly to OM. I was very direct, said what I knew, said I'd badly expose him at work. He sound timid and weak. He even said how important work is to him. Told him to cancel all plans for tonight and to never talk to her again. I said he could an excuse for tonight but moving forward no contact and reasons for no contact. He sounded scared. W called 30 minutes later saying she's headed home and she is. Crisis averted for now. Thank you do much for sharing our wisdom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Keep the VAR on yourself.


----------



## YPbPr

Keep the var on me? I have it in play on her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Keep the var on me? I have it in play on her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He means, record what she says to you.

I think keko advised James Bond in another life, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Yes record it when she comes home.

There are so many false domestic violence claims on men its not even funny.


----------



## Will_Kane

Recording your confrontation with your wife could protect you if she makes a false accusation to try to get you out of the house.

Cheaters feel entitled and can act irrationally when you cheat them out of their cheating.


----------



## YPbPr

Understood
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Came home. W is hitting me hardcore about sources. I keep repeating that the techniques are not the issue here. She also keep trying To say that my intel techniques are an invasion of privacy. As I try to tell her I'm working to save our marriage I'm told that it's not loving and I'm only trying to control here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

and she shows no remorse at all?


----------



## Chaparral

Stay calm and strong. You are not controling she has all the choices in the world as do you. You simply have boundaries and can and will do anything you can think of to keep other men out of your marriage. You have every right to fight for yopur marriage. All IS fair in love and war. 

Tell her if she wants to date other people she needs to be single.

Sounds like OM hasn't told her you called.


----------



## YPbPr

I feel like she's trying to get me to admit to snooping. Would that be damaging to me? She saying she can't get transparent with me unless I admit to lookin through her things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

To address the remorse questions above, she's refuting most of what I say and not saying sorry or the EA. in fact she's saying she told me she was having feelings from the onset and stopped. But obviously he hasn't if he's made attempts to meet up and texted about running off with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

For the snooping you could tell her you've been getting anonymous info via email/text. Maybe she'll get paranoid at work but w/e.


----------



## YPbPr

She's at a standstill. If I don't discuss my intel methods she says h can't work on us and is prepared to move out and move on but she won't move out unless I agree she no longer has to be financially responsible for rent, utils, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Tell her you heard her and the OM have had sex at least twice.


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> She's at a standstill. If I don't discuss my intel methods she says h can't work on us and is prepared to move out and move on but she won't move out unless I agree she no longer has to be financially responsible for rent, utils, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay strong if you fold you will be lost for sure. She is trying to control you. Tell her there is no place for privacy and secrets in a marriage. If she tries to turn that around on you tell her what she has done means at this point there is no marriage.

If she insists on where you are getting info, tell her if you rat out your sources you will lose them.


----------



## YPbPr

What would that do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

I asked that question about saying she had sex twice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Fwiw, I must have slipped the other night as referred to something that came directly from the blackberry. Kinda tough to work around that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

If I were you I would just tell her you're going out. Just leave for a couple hours and give her time to let it all soak in.


----------



## Chaparral

Stop arguing with her. State your position and be cool to her. NO emotions, be like Spock.


----------



## Shamwow

She is being irrational, and that can be expected. Her mind is going crazy tring to find something wrong that YOU did to justify what she's done wrong.

Her argument is ridiculous, and she knows it. Her stance is a catch 22. You give your sources: she knows what they are and can figure out how to diffuse their truth through spinning their validity/context. You don't give her your sources: she can claim you are lying to her/hiding things from her, so how is that any better than her not telling you the truth. (her logic)

The bottom line is you are confronting her about what she's done in secret, and it's detrimental to your marriage. Privacy is for the bathroom. Secrecy has NO place in a marriage (save regarding a surprise gift/party), especially when vows are being broken.

She's a tough one. Don't expect to resolve this tonight. She will keep coming around and around to this one point to make you crazy. Do not cave tonight, even if you feel you are looking like a broken record. Once you tell her what you have she'll concoct why you're wrong, even if it makes as little sense as her "intel" argument.

She really must be used to being in control. Keep the tables turned on her.

Leave for a while if there's no progress. Stop engaging the irrationality.


----------



## lordmayhem

First stop the talk about transparency, its premature because she's nowhere near remorseful or ready for R. A remorseful WS is willingly transparent and wants you to check on them because they WANT to rebuild the trust they destroyed. Does that sound like your WW? Nope. Her mind is STILL in the fog of the affair. The top priority right now is to kill the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Wlie your ignoring her start reading No More Mister Nice Guy

No More Mr. Nice Guy

And MMSL, this will explain how you got here:

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks all. I'll keep working on killing the affair. Had a huge breakthrough today my speaking directly with OM. I'm gonna give our discussions a rest tonight. Should I expose to her mom yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> Thanks all. I'll keep working on killing the affair. Had a huge breakthrough today my speaking directly with OM. I'm gonna give our discussions a rest tonight. Should I expose to her mom yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do whatever you want. You are the one in control.


----------



## Shaggy

YPbPr said:


> Thanks all. I'll keep working on killing the affair. Had a huge breakthrough today my speaking directly with OM. I'm gonna give our discussions a rest tonight. Should I expose to her mom yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely.

Think of it this way: If there wasn't an OM, if she wasn't continue to contact him, and if she wasn't continuing to arrange to meet up with him - there wouldn't be the need for any of this. 

My point is, this situation has been created entirely by her. She isn't truly offering to say she was wrong and cross a boundary. Instead she is calling you controlling and demanding to know where the leaks are coming from so she can close them.

Tell her mom.


----------



## happyman64

Y,

If your wife keeps acting irrational and being defiant then you might have to expose to her mom or anyone that she respects.

She is being very disrespectful to you and your marriage (not surprising).

Maybe it is time to walk away from her. Tell her when she starts acting rational then you will be glad to have a conversation with you. But if she keeps hurting your marriage then she is going to feel the consequences. Be vague for now.

Do not let her off the hook for any financial obligations.

HM64


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Thanks all. I'll keep working on killing the affair. Had a huge breakthrough today my speaking directly with OM. I'm gonna give our discussions a rest tonight. Should I expose to her mom yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would. You tried to crack her with hard information and she's refusing to cave. She is showing no remorse and is trying to turn this all around on you and what a terrible snooper you are.

My husband fully admitted his affair after DD#2 (well, he texted me some completely undeniable stuff by accident!). When I started looking through his past cell phone records and discussing what I found, he got pretty mad and tried the whole "privacy" argument and how he felt "untrustworthy." I just about bit his head off with the retort that if he EVER thought what I had done to PROTECT OUR MARRIAGE was in the SAME LEAGUE as what he'd done, then he should leave ASAP because the marriage was OVER. That did the trick. Now he whips out the phone at the slightest request and hands it over without a glance.

From point A to point B I would say took several weeks. But he fully admitted his affair. You aren't anywhere near there yet.


----------



## YPbPr

I'll call my MIL tomorrow. Hey- did I mention this? Web I sad that maybe the OM should get off the account or find another job she said this Ian his fault and we need to leave him out of this. 

Gimme a break. LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> I feel like she's trying to get me to admit to snooping. Would that be damaging to me? She saying she can't get transparent with me unless I admit to lookin through her things.


 BULL****!

Why are you negotiating with a terrorist?


----------



## YPbPr

Any advice or outline for how to discuss this with we mom?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> To address the remorse questions above, she's refuting most of what I say and not saying sorry or the EA. in fact she's saying she told me she was having feelings from the onset and stopped. But obviously he hasn't if he's made attempts to meet up and texted about running off with him.


Translation: She is in FULL AFFAIR MODE.

You have NO REASON to even speak to her UNTIL she says "I'm sorry I hurt you."

Until then, ignore EVERYTHING SHE SAYS.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> Fwiw, I must have slipped the other night as referred to something that came directly from the blackberry. Kinda tough to work around that.


Who gives a flip?!

I mean, really? You're worrying about what a CHEATER thinks of you?

meh


----------



## Shaggy

Well there you have you answers:

1. He ran right to her, even though you told him not to contact her.
2. She views defending him as more important and your right to fight for the marriage.

I know she claims to be trying to work on the marriage, but what I see is you hopefully successfully c-block her hooking up overnight with him, while she tries to find better ways of blocking your tracking her. 

She's not fighting for the marriage at all. She's just to chicken to be cheating right in front of you.

She's also using her company and job as a way to fund and justify her continuing affair. 

Cake eating and fence sitting in one package.

Since he's such an important client to her, and her company - I really don't see how this can work out. She's not working on the marriage or ending the EA/PA.

Perhaps after you've had a sleep - tomorrow you should just ask her - why she chose to cheat with him physically, on date XXX? How could she claim to be a good wife, when she's done that? And it's time for her to decide. Either R, or leave for good and you will be filing for D immediately - it's he choice, but you won't wait for her to explore her feelings for the OM.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> She's at a standstill. If I don't discuss my intel methods she says h can't work on us and is prepared to move out and move on but she won't move out unless I agree she no longer has to be financially responsible for rent, utils, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Fine. Let her move out. The ONLY way you'll ever save your marriage is if you stand firm and say "I won't discuss a single thing with you until you prove that you are NC and are giving me full transparency. If you don't want to do those two things, then I don't want to be married to you. We have nothing more to discuss."

LEAD your marriage by refusing to be part of cheating.


----------



## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> Well there you have you answers:
> 
> 1. He ran right to her, even though you told him not to contact her.
> 2. She views defending him as more important and your right to fight for the marriage.
> 
> I know she claims to be trying to work on the marriage, but what I see is you hopefully successfully c-block her hooking up overnight with him, while she tries to find better ways of blocking your tracking her.
> 
> She's not fighting for the marriage at all. She's just to chicken to be cheating right in front of you.
> 
> She's also using her company and job as a way to fund and justify her continuing affair.
> 
> Cake eating and fence sitting in one package.
> 
> Since he's such an important client to her, and her company - I really don't see how this can work out. She's not working on the marriage or ending the EA/PA.
> 
> Perhaps after you've had a sleep - tomorrow you should just ask her - why she chose to cheat with him physically, on date XXX? How could she claim to be a good wife, when she's done that? And it's time for her to decide. Either R, or leave for good and you will be filing for D immediately - it's he choice, but you won't wait for her to explore her feelings for the OM.


I did not see where OM contacted her except for canceling their after work plans.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> Thanks all. I'll keep working on killing the affair. Had a huge breakthrough today my speaking directly with OM. I'm gonna give our discussions a rest tonight. Should I expose to her mom yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 By all means.

You are on a path now, Ypb. You have to continue. Be STRONG. Do NOT share your wife.


----------



## Acabado

> and we need to leave him out of this


He intruded he knew the risks. She's the one who let him into ''this''.


----------



## Shaggy

chapparal said:


> I did not see where OM contacted her except for canceling their after work plans.


She knew the OP had called him, when she came home tellong him to leave the OM out of it, she also probed him on how he knew about today. Clearly the OM contacted her, and she came home to confront hubby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> I'll call my MIL tomorrow. Hey- did I mention this? Web I sad that maybe the OM should get off the account or find another job she said this Ian his fault and we need to leave him out of this.
> 
> Gimme a break. LOL!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This sounds like YPbPr brought up the OM she responded . I can't tell he called her. No? 

YPbPr should hold both fo their jobs over their heads if she stays nasty about it.


----------



## YPbPr

I can see how Shaggy might extract that she found out about my contact with OM since she tried to tell me to leave him out of it. It's quite possible but it also may not have happened too.

W snooped on my laptop last night and found the blackbrry desktop app. She also changed her passwords on a couple banking sites and email sites.

She carried on this morning that NOTHING physical happened and she spent all morning putting all of this on me and she almost has me believing that she didn't do anything and that my detective work is creating a scenario that doesn't exist. Obviously something exists. 

I'm regretting not asking OM how many time they got together or if they had sex. Is it worth another call to him? I know he's scared he'll loose his job. 

Should I continue to call W's mom this morning and discuss?


----------



## bandit.45

Why didn't you have a password on your laptop? :slap:

See, the problem is.... your WW is smarter than you.


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> I can see how Shaggy might extract that she found out about my contact with OM since she tried to tell me to leave him out of it. It's quite possible but it also may not have happened too.
> 
> W snooped on my laptop last night and found the blackbrry desktop app. She also changed her passwords on a couple banking sites and email sites.
> 
> She carried on this morning that NOTHING physical happened and she spent all morning putting all of this on me and she almost has me believing that she didn't do anything and that my detective work is creating a scenario that doesn't exist. Obviously something exists.
> 
> I'm regretting not asking OM how many time they got together or if they had sex. Is it worth another call to him? I know he's scared he'll loose his job.
> 
> Should I continue to call W's mom this morning and discuss?


You have all you need. From now on she is either into the marriage or not. She is transparent or not. She loves you and wants to be your wife or not. Give her a few days. 

You know what she did, what are you doubting? She told you she had feelings for the OM. She told her friend she really ****ed up. What does that mean, she had the chance and didn't screw him?

Quit listening to her bullsh!t. When she starts it up, hold up your hand and walk off. Its time for you to do the 180 and start working on yourself. Its time for her to do some work on your marriage.


----------



## Almostrecovered

gaslighting

twisting things around to make you feel crazy, very common by WS's


----------



## turnera

IMO, tell all her important people, IF she is refusing to cut contact.


----------



## Shaggy

He reaction to worrying about you watching her, is to lock things down more. That could be out of wanting to hide, or a knew jerk reaction to being watched.

Either way, there is the fact she's admitted to feelings for him, there is her message to the friend, and her repeated attempts to find a convenient excuse to staying overnight in his location.

IF she's checking your laptop - make sure you're visiting this form using private browsing mode and closing your browser when you are done.

But after all of this where are you at? She still refuses to end contact with him, a man whom she has feelings. 

I'd give her a day or two to settle down. She saw him yesterday, which has fueled her EA and has got her thinking about him even more. He didn't go out with her last night, so she's upset that she didn't get to socialize with him.

Over all she's frustrated and upset by yesterdays events.

But in a couple of days I would approach her about where this is going: Does she choose the marriage - then the situation with the OM has to change. Another person will have to take over the account.


----------



## YPbPr

Yup. Pretty dumb of me to not protect the laptop. The thing is, that's not the machine I was using to do conduct research however I did download the app to the machine just in case. 

Spoke to W's mom. She had no idea about OM. Surprisingly, W's mom was very open with me and is committed to helping us through this as best as she can. 

Got some insights into W's first marriage. First husband put a PI on her but it turned out he was tracking her relationship with a good friend. Someone I know as well and someone who his fatherly to her. I do think she covers up her relationship with this person a bit (because of the PI/first marriage) but there is nothing going on. Confirmed. I actually like the guy and saw emails with him advising her not to go see OM. 

Spoke to legal and they said looking at W's blkberry doesn't propose a problem to me. I've been concerned, legally, that telling her I looked through her phone would make seperation/divorce proceedings unfavorable for me but they won't. 

So, at this point, I'm thinking about saying I looked at her phone and obtained info. She already told me she's getting another phone and changing her passwords, etc.

So here's where I'm at. What do I have to loose telling her I looked at the phone? I say, nothing. If the marriage is done, then it's done. I know what I know and I don't need to continue monitoring her. I figure, tell her about the phone, explain it was to protect our marriage, and let the cards lie where the may. 

If she's unwilling to to get into marriage counseling this week and accept the fact that I looked at the phone... ...and if she's not willing to give me the transparency then that's that. What else can I do. I guess this post is really me telling you guys I'm going to give up my blackberry source (not var). It's probably closed off anyway for now. Thoughts?


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> He reaction to worrying about you watching her, is to lock things down more. That could be out of wanting to hide, or a knew jerk reaction to being watched.
> 
> Either way, there is the fact she's admitted to feelings for him, there is her message to the friend, and her repeated attempts to find a convenient excuse to staying overnight in his location.
> 
> IF she's checking your laptop - make sure you're visiting this form using private browsing mode and closing your browser when you are done.
> 
> But after all of this where are you at? She still refuses to end contact with him, a man whom she has feelings.
> 
> I'd give her a day or two to settle down. She saw him yesterday, which has fueled her EA and has got her thinking about him even more. He didn't go out with her last night, so she's upset that she didn't get to socialize with him.
> 
> Over all she's frustrated and upset by yesterdays events.
> 
> But in a couple of days I would approach her about where this is going: Does she choose the marriage - then the situation with the OM has to change. Another person will have to take over the account.



Thanks. Just read this after making my post above. I'm always visiting TAM via private mode so all set there. I clear my cache/cookies, too. I think my post above also let's you know where I'm at but I agree that NC needs to take place however it's SO complicated given the work relationship. This is her company's biggest account. You're right though... She's not thinking rationally and is only poo-poo'ing thoughts of he or she leaving the account.


----------



## Shaggy

I think you're right about the BB source being gone from now on. Think about your plan overnight and if you don't see any holes in it, then have that talk about the BB messages tomorrow.

Certainly don't give up any other methods.


----------



## lordmayhem

She's continuing to be defiant and blameshifting. The blackberry is now compromised and she defiantly says she will get a new phone and changed her passwords. This now calls for drastic measures, don't you think?

It's time to lawyer up and start divorce proceedings. You can always put it on hold or cancel it altogether if she ever leaves the fog. It's also time to start considering wider exposure of the affair. How far you go will be up to her actions. It's time to go dark on her and do a strong 180. Stop engaging her. She's playing you like a puppet. Geez, she almost has you believing her bullsh!t.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> What do I have to lose telling her I looked at the phone? I say, nothing.


What do you have to GAIN by telling her? I mean, seriously, why WOULD you? To get her to stop harassing you? Are you so doormat that you'll do anything to keep the peace? I know it's hard to stand up against someone constantly in your face, but consider this a good learning experience, to get you out of your comfort zone, by NOT telling her.

LEAD your family, shut your mouth except to say "If you're ready to go NC with OM, let's talk; if not, I have nothing to say to you."


----------



## turnera

Have you exposed yet?


----------



## Almostrecovered

lordmayhem said:


> She's continuing to be defiant and blameshifting. The blackberry is now compromised and she defiantly says she will get a new phone and changed her passwords.  This now calls for drastic measures, don't you think?
> 
> It's time to lawyer up and start divorce proceedings. You can always put it on hold or cancel it altogether if she ever leaves the fog. It's also time to start considering wider exposure of the affair. How far you go will be up to her actions. It's time to go dark on her and do a strong 180. Stop engaging her. She's playing you like a puppet. Geez, she almost has you believing her bullsh!t.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

time for hard consequences

dont be afraid, you will be fine whether you get R or D, just make sure it's the good R not a false one if you R


----------



## Almostrecovered

turnera said:


> What do you have to GAIN by telling her? I mean, seriously, why WOULD you? To get her to stop harassing you? Are you so doormat that you'll do anything to keep the peace? I know it's hard to stand up against someone constantly in your face, but consider this a good learning experience, to get you out of your comfort zone, by NOT telling her.
> 
> LEAD your family, shut your mouth except to say "If you're ready to go NC with OM, let's talk; if not, I have nothing to say to you."


this, time to go 180 hard and let your actions speak louder than words


----------



## OldWolf57

dude, your wife is the type that needs a strong dose of consequences. imo, only D papers will do that. she calls your bluffs everytime. you told her to leave, she say release her from bills and she will. you folded. either your job don't pay enough to cover them, or you know she will hook up with him once she's out. i understand !! not having real proof of pa so far, you don't want to give her the chance by moving out. man i feel for you. when my fw stepped out, so did i. all the damn way!!! that came from knowing who and what type of man i am, so when she admitted feelings for ap, after vowing to hold only me there. i was the south pole. yeah there are gray areas, you are in one, so like these good people keep telling you. STOP talking to her, go dark. it's time to man up if you want this marriage. your wife has been wearing the pants, so if you want a better marriage if you to make it, you really has to be more ALPHA from now on. have you read " No More Mr. Nice Guy", or the 180 ?? DUDE, your marriage has changed, and it will never be the same. yes, you can make it better, but if she goes back to wearing the pants, expect this to happen again. so i say to you,, if or when you guys r, you need to get in touch with you. you need to stop being afraid to be on your own. you need to decide what you as a man will accept. you see, your wife knows the inner you, thats why she called your bluff, but to be the head of your family, you will have to bury that old inner man like Paul says in the big book. and be a new man, a man with confidence, principals, and boundries. so while you are going thru this trial. start working on developing a better you. Good Luck an God Bless you.


----------



## turnera

Look at it this way. She is determined to win. Win whatever, fights, control, push you back into doormat, whatever. If you tell her your source, you are handing her a victory. Which will embolden her to go for even MORE victories at your expense.

Be silent. Be mysterious. Go out and GAL and make her wonder what YOU are doing. Show her that if she treats you like dirt, she gets dirt in return.


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> She already told me she's getting another phone and changing her passwords, etc.


So there is your answer. She is more interested in preserving her privacy so that she can continue her affair, or have new ones, than she is in repairing her marriage. I'm sorry. But your marriage can't survive that attitude. It's over.

You just need to decide whether it is over with you being officially divorced, or whether it is over with you being her roommate while she sleeps with other men.



YPbPr said:


> So here's where I'm at. What do I have to loose telling her I looked at the phone? I say, nothing. If the marriage is done, then it's done. I know what I know and I don't need to continue monitoring her. I figure, tell her about the phone, explain it was to protect our marriage, and let the cards lie where the may.


What you have to lose is your frame. You are correct that you know what you know. And your wife knows your main source. But, you have told your wife that you're not discussing your sources. But your wife believes that, if she berates you long enough and loudly enough, you will cave and give her exactly what she wants. It looks like she's right.

You should talk to a divorce lawyer. It sounds like you spoke to her company's legal department about looking at her phone. But you're not going to be litigating your divorce through her company. You're going to be in a divorce court. So a divorce lawyer is the expert of what is dismissed and what is viewed dimly.

I suggest you maintain your frame. Yes, she likely knows that her phone is compromised. But I would maintain that you're not discussing your sources. I would add some hypothetical sources to the mix. Tell her you're not going to confirm, or deny, whether you have accessed her phone, or her email, or her Facebook, or had coworkers of hers (or his) emailing you information. Keep her hamster running in place.



YPbPr said:


> If she's unwilling to to get into marriage counseling this week and accept the fact that I looked at the phone... ...and if she's not willing to give me the transparency then that's that.


I think you're a couple of steps ahead of where you need to be. The first step is your wife ending her affair. The second step is her apologizing to you for having the affair. Transparency comes after those steps. She's resisting taking the first step and you're trying to get her to the third. You can't force her. All you can do is refuse to be her husband if she doesn't end her affair, apologize, and work to repair her marriage. And you'll help her repair the marriage. But you can't end her affair or apologize for her. Those first two steps are all on her.

Good luck.


----------



## Shamwow

Wow...stubborn and defiant in the face of obvious logic, with her marriage on the line. #1 She sounds just like my ex. #2 She will soon be your ex.

Keep taking charge. Don't tell her anything anymore unless she breaks down and admits her wrongs. I have a strong feeling she won't. Some waywards NEVER do, let alone in time to save the relationship.

Please file ASAP, for your own sanity and well being.

180 Bigtime.

Sorry...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Is this what you call a marriage?


----------



## YPbPr

Spoke with W's ex-H. Wow was he helpful! So much has gone on in her life that I don't know about. It's been a series of grass-is-greener and jumping from one ship to the next. 

He also thought something fishy was going on with her in their marriage and he saw some texts, etc that he didn't like either. 

W wants us to visit her IC tomorrow night for MC. I had said I was OK with that in the past and I said would do it so I think I'm stuck; however, W's ex-H said I should be wary of her IC and try to find someone else.

What should I do here?


----------



## YPbPr

Oh snap! I didn't see all the replies. I'm gonna give a read and update again.


----------



## Shaggy

Visit the IC, but I think you should be wary yet avoid bring defensive.

If she's been with this IC for a while, it could be because the IC has become a moral enabler for her, so be on guard for for that and being ganged up on.

The best bet is to go,listen, and if you think MC will help then propose a new fresh person so that she can continue IC in a safe environment that isn't compromised by the MC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> W wants us to visit her IC tomorrow night for MC. I had said I was OK with that in the past and I said would do it so I think I'm stuck; however, W's ex-H said I should be wary of her IC and try to find someone else.
> 
> What should I do here?


It's fine to go. But you should go in expecting the counselor to be an enabler. If the counselor is sitting there telling you to excuse your wife's behavior because of some justifiable reason, then you stand your ground and refuse. You should be there to give your wife a safe place to acknowledge her affair, pledge to end it, apologize to you, and lay out steps to improve your marriage. If the counselor wants to talk about your wife's childhood, or anything else, then just state that you can get into that after she has pledged to end her affair, apologized to you, and committed to working on your marriage.

If the counselor isn't helpful in working toward your goals, then you should not go back.

Be a mighty oak incapable of being bent in some strange, and irrelevant, direction.

Good luck.


----------



## YPbPr

OldWolf57 said:


> dude, your wife is the type that needs a strong dose of consequences. imo, only D papers will do that. she calls your bluffs everytime. *you told her to leave, she say release her from bills and she will. you folded.*


No I didn't. I told her I wouldn't be in an open marriage and that if she didn't want to be with me then she should leave. She said she wasn't leaving the house. I said, then we should get a divorce. She didn't say much to that. Then she said, I'll leave but you need to sign something that says W won't be responsible for bills, etc. I said no way. So she says well I guess I'm not leaving. I can't physically remove her from the house. She has the guest room and I have the master.




OldWolf57 said:


> either your job don't pay enough to cover them, or you know she will hook up with him once she's out.


I can maintain the bills without her and she's knows that. That's why I said to W, "You can leave via divorce" I do know that I'm not going to let her move out before a divorce and pay for our current living situation while she tries on the OM. No f'ing way. So if she wants to move out now, without a divorce, then she needs to keep paying the bills here. Period. 



OldWolf57 said:


> when my fw stepped out, so did i. all the damn way!!! that came from knowing who and what type of man i am, so when she admitted feelings for ap, after vowing to hold only me there. i was the south pole.


Would you mind re-explaining? Too much code for me to decode.



OldWolf57 said:


> you need to stop being afraid to be on your own. you need to decide what you as a man will accept.


I'm not afraid and I'm not afraid (anymore) of the consequences I'll receive from her. I'm not letting my W dictate my behavior anymore. Calling OM directly, calling her mother, and calling her ex-H were all empowering moments for me. I don't care what she'll do if she finds out and I'm using that attitude to carry me forward. I'm calling the shots now.



OldWolf57 said:


> you see, your wife knows the inner you, thats why she called your bluff


Which bluff is that?


----------



## Shaggy

I didn't know she had moved out of the marriage bed and into the guest room.

Has she also stopped intimacy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> W wants us to visit her IC tomorrow night for MC. I had said I was OK with that in the past and I said would do it so I think I'm stuck; however, W's ex-H said I should be wary of her IC and try to find someone else.


Keep in mind it's her IC, for all you know she could have paid him/her to say things to put the blame on you or the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

PHTlump said:


> What you have to lose is your frame. You are correct that you know what you know. And your wife knows your main source. But, you have told your wife that you're not discussing your sources. But your wife believes that, if she berates you long enough and loudly enough, you will cave and give her exactly what she wants. It looks like she's right.


I haven't caved yet. It was a suggestion to you folk. I figure that bberry has been compromised so why not offer it up? I'm at a major standstill her since she won't move forward with transparency without knowing my sources; however, I get what you're all staying... Stick to my guns and don't reveal just to maintain my boundaries. Like someone else mentioned, maybe I should say to her, "Look, acknowledge what you've been doing is wrong and apologize." That could be a first step. She did have a moment like this already a couple nights ago and I thought that wad the major first step but then she came home that day and said she couldn't do "this."



PHTlump said:


> You should talk to a divorce lawyer. It sounds like you spoke to her company's legal department about looking at her phone. But you're not going to be litigating your divorce through her company. You're going to be in a divorce court. So a divorce lawyer is the expert of what is dismissed and what is viewed dimly.


I spoke to my divorce lawyer. I do NOT speak her company's legal department. They don't have one (it's the owner's H). My attorney said looking at her bberry is of no offense and I shouldn't be afraid to tell her I did that. It won't affect D proceedings since we've only been married for such a short time and there's no tied assets. 



PHTlump said:


> I would add some hypothetical sources to the mix. Tell her you're not going to confirm, or deny, whether you have accessed her phone, or her email, or her Facebook, or had coworkers of hers (or his) emailing you information. Keep her hamster running in place.


I started that process already saying if I told her my source, that PERSON won't tell me anymore — implying on her confidants is exposing her.




PHTlump said:


> The first step is your wife ending her affair. The second step is her apologizing to you for having the affair. Transparency comes after those steps. She's resisting taking the first step and you're trying to get her to the third. You can't force her. All you can do is refuse to be her husband if she doesn't end her affair, apologize, and work to repair her marriage.


OK. Here we go. This is what I was talking about. She said nothing is going on anymore. She says nothing physical happened. She kind of apologized a couple nights ago. So maybe I get her to go through these steps again but how do I get her to TRULY end affair?


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> I didn't know she had moved out of the marriage bed and into the guest room.
> 
> Has she also stopped intimacy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Two night in the guest room. She tried to get in the master last night and said, "Slide over." She lasted an hour I think and then went to the other room. It's been two night for and she asked me to call the cable company this morning so they could install a new cable box in the guest room. She offered to do it herself but the bill is in my name. I think calling the cable company would be such a b*tch move on my part. How can I not be a p*ssy here and say f*ck you without feeding her notions that I'm immature. Cause if I say I'm not doing anything for you she'll just say, "It's actions like that that show me you're not improving yourself and you're still the same."

Intamcy... I hadn't had sex with for a few weeks when I though things were going on. She got tanked two weeks ago and I nailed her hard. She doesn't quite remember it all. Didn't have sex again until a week later.

On the topic of sex... She's not the kinkiest person so sometimes a lot of her inabilities in the bedroom make me go soft. She sometime looks uncomfortable in the bedroom like she doesn't know what she's doing or what she wants. We've JUST started talking about this and she says she likes to be on top and I go soft sometime when she does that. That's because she's kind boring on top. She wants everything done so slowly and but she's not vocal about it at all. I'm not a mind reader. She told a friend via email that I have sex like an adolescent. WTF? She has no idea that it's a lot of her actions her that change my reactions.


----------



## the guy

You truly don't get her to end the affair, also you can do is stop tolorating it by making it uncomfortable and inconvienent to continue.

You do this with what you have done so far and you file and have her served and it will be up to your WW to end the A and start doing the heavy lifting before the D is finalized.


----------



## turnera

By having her hand over her phone and computer any time you ask, so you can verify there has been no contact.
By her giving you the passwords to said phone and computer.
By having her tell her parents what she did.
By her writing a NC letter to any men she's cheated with.
By her going to a MC of YOUR choice.

IF you're really still messed up, you can add things like taking a polygraph and signing a postnup in case she ever cheats again.


----------



## YPbPr

^^^ So I get what you're saying. File for D now. Show I've had enough. Tell her what I want and then give her the period of the D to make the changes she needs to make. ^^^


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> She offered to do it herself but the bill is in my name. I think calling the cable company would be such a b*tch move on my part. How can I not be a p*ssy here and say f*ck you without feeding her notions that I'm immature.


You say "you are choosing to sleep apart from your husband who doesn't want that to happen. Therefore, I can't in good conscience HELP you sleep apart from me by making your new room more comfortable. That crosses my boundaries of self respect."


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> ^^^ So I get what you're saying. File for D now. Show I've had enough. Tell her what I want and then give her the period of the D to make the changes she needs to make. ^^^


Not if you're just trying to trick her into doing what you want. You do it if you truly WILL walk away from her if she doesn't stop cheating. 

It's that letting go thing that makes the difference. I love you, I want you, but I will not share you with another man in body or spirit. If you can't or won't commit to me then I have no choice but to leave this fake marriage.


----------



## the guy

I think getting a cable box is just going to make it more comfortable for her to continue behaving this way.


----------



## Shaggy

the guy said:


> I think getting a cable box is just going to make it more comfortable for her to continue behaving this way.


Yes. And like OP said it imaging him her b1tch. 

It also signals your accepting this as a long term solution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Cable box sounds like a sh!t test...she's trying to evoke sympathy and see if she can still make you do anything. Pretty sure she knows your social and other info and as your wife can probably call and make simple additive changes to your cable account, something as simple as adding a box...if she called and tried to cancel your service or change address or put it in her name, etc, then they'd require you on the phone to sign off on it. But I can't speak for your local cable company.

Do whatever you want, man. My ex did that to me for a while, first dog food, then couldn't find an Ethernet cable (so I was "obstructing her work"). All things she could easily do herself. Etc etc. resolve it if you want. Let her figure it out if you want. You're in charge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Y,

You are not thinking like her.

*She wants you to order her a cable box. "F" that!
*
Get her some books about Infidelity and tell her to shutup and start reading now before she becomes a 2x loser in marriage.


Surviving an Affair - by Willard F., Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers; Fleming H Revell Co; ISBN: 0800717589


Not Just Friends - Protect Your Relationship From Infidelity And Heal The Trauma Of Betrayal by Shirley P. Glass, PH.D with Jean Coppock Staeheli; ISBN: 074322549X


*That is how you deal with the situation.*

Stop letting her take control. And if she wants cable still, tell her to order it herself so that some utilities are in her name for the future when she is alone.

Get tough my man or she will never respect you....

HM64


----------



## jh52

YPbPr said:


> Two night in the guest room. She tried to get in the master last night and said, "Slide over." She lasted an hour I think and then went to the other room. It's been two night for and she asked me to call the cable company this morning so they could install a new cable box in the guest room. She offered to do it herself but the bill is in my name. I think calling the cable company would be such a b*tch move on my part. How can I not be a p*ssy here and say f*ck you without feeding her notions that I'm immature. Cause if I say I'm not doing anything for you she'll just say, "It's actions like that that show me you're not improving yourself and you're still the same."
> 
> Intamcy... I hadn't had sex with for a few weeks when I though things were going on. She got tanked two weeks ago and I nailed her hard. She doesn't quite remember it all. Didn't have sex again until a week later.
> 
> On the topic of sex... She's not the kinkiest person so sometimes a lot of her inabilities in the bedroom make me go soft. She sometime looks uncomfortable in the bedroom like she doesn't know what she's doing or what she wants. We've JUST started talking about this and she says she likes to be on top and I go soft sometime when she does that. That's because she's kind boring on top. She wants everything done so slowly and but she's not vocal about it at all. I'm not a mind reader. She told a friend via email that I have sex like an adolescent. WTF? She has no idea that it's a lot of her actions her that change my reactions.


You said she told a friend "via email that I have sex like an adolescent". I would bet she got crazy with the OM -- even though she has denied. You read on other posts that wife/gf does things with OM that they never did/do with husband. Why would she compare/say that about you -- unless she has experienced others. Just a thought !!


----------



## YPbPr

^^^ Possible ^^^

So W's mom has been e-mail easy topics with me saying she's hopefully, praying, etc. Then she write something like...

"I think to win her back, you’re going to have to lay it out there How you came to know these things. And, assess for yourself if you have gone overboard on this and can let it to/stop doing in the future…
Think about it.
xo"

Her mother also told me that my W's first H hired a PI when he became suspicious and then said he suspected the lawyer guy I mentioned earlier. W's mom went on to say that lawyer guy is a paternal realtionship.

So I called my W's ex-H. He denied saying he used a PI but said he saw texts, etc that he didn't like. I thought lawyer guy was someone she met during their divorce. Guess not. He was someone she met at the gym and started a relationship with. He's not certain if it was PA but he said it was flirty. He also mentioned this is his her pattern.

So here's what: Either I'll be the one the fix her or I won't. I'm halfway out the door here since I'm thinking people don't change.


----------



## YPbPr

Quick update: W's mom wrote another email saying the communicated today and she told my W that I was sad, I love her, and I'm trying. She said she did not go further with it. If my W asks if I mentioned the EA should I be honest with her?


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> I thought lawyer guy was someone she met during their divorce. Guess not. He was someone she met at the gym and started a relationship with. He's not certain if it was PA but he said it was flirty. He also mentioned this is his her pattern.


She still goes to gym right?


----------



## Shamwow

YPbPr said:


> Quick update: W's mom wrote another email saying the communicated today and she told my W that I was sad, I love her, and I'm trying. She said she did not go further with it. If my W asks if I mentioned the EA should I be honest with her?


Absolutely be honest with her. You're holding back on info sources because it's the only way to get the truth from her eventually (without her taking it further underground). But don't openly lie about something if she asks. You can not answer, or say it's not important, but at this point might as well say "Yes, I told her the truth."


----------



## Shamwow

YPbPr said:


> Then she write something like...
> 
> "I think to win her back, you’re going to have to lay it out there How you came to know these things. And, assess for yourself if you have gone overboard on this and can let it to/stop doing in the future…
> Think about it.
> xo"


Her mom may be trying to "help", but remember she's on her daughter's side no matter what, for ever and ever. She's her mom. So clearly she's trying to guilt you into revealing your sources because your WW asked her to. So...ulterior motives at play. Even if you love your MIL, take this as a sign that she's a mole. You told her the truth, and she is not worth contacting any more for advice. You tried.

EDIT: And what the f**k is up with the whole "reveal your sources" trip WW is on? She's been caught. How doesn't matter. Cops don't need to detail every method used to catch a criminal while interrogating them. They just need to show proof at some point to convict. Plus she's changed all her pw's, is getting a new phone, and holy crap what else, to prove she won't be open with you. She has one string to pull and she's pulling hard. She knows she's wrong, but wants to hold on to something to say (in the future) that you were a controlling snoop who read things the wrong way from some "innocent" texts/email/whatever and her, the poor defenseless victim had to finally quit the marriage.


----------



## Shaggy

She wants your sources because she is worried about what you know already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

People whose names that start with sha in this thread speak the truth


----------



## Shamwow

YPbPr said:


> "I think to win her back, you’re going to have to lay it out there How you came to know these things



One more thought on your MIL's note to you. She refers to you "winning her back". WTF. She doesn't understand that her daughter needs to win YOU back. You're not the one in the wrong, but that's what MIL is implying. "...How you came to know these things". If she actually cared a whit about you she wouldn't care to know all the gory details of how, she'd be distraught that her daughter had betrayed her husband and her marriage.


----------



## YPbPr

Shamwow said:


> She knows she's wrong, but wants to hold on to something to say (in the future) that you were a controlling snoop who read things the wrong way from some "innocent" texts/email/whatever and her, the poor defenseless victim had to finally quit the marriage.



Now that is the TRUTH! This is why I think seeing her IC for MC might be the wrong way to go. I might roll with it tomorrow and not reveal sources there and insist we see someone else.


----------



## YPbPr

Shamwow said:


> One more thought on your MIL's note to you. She refers to you "winning her back". WTF. She doesn't understand that her daughter needs to win YOU back. You're not the one in the wrong, but that's what MIL is implying. "...How you came to know these things". If she actually cared a whit about you she wouldn't care to know all the gory details of how, she'd be distraught that her daughter had betrayed her husband and her marriage.


Agreed. Do I call her out on that or do I just stop corresponding with her? I'm thinking the ladder.


----------



## YPbPr

I'd love to right her back and say... Thanks for the continued support but win HER back?


----------



## Shamwow

Just stop corresponding. Feel free to reply politely and vaguely to MIL if she continues to contact you, but I'd say it's time to stop looking for advice or help from her.


----------



## Almostrecovered

YPbPr said:


> I'm thinking the ladder.


Hitting her with a ladder will get you arrested but I understand the sentiment

(sorry I'm a grammar nazi and I had to lighten up the thread for a moment)


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> Two night in the guest room. She tried to get in the master last night and said, "Slide over." She lasted an hour I think and then went to the other room..


What does this mean. You would not accomodate her? Did she want to talk? Did you turn your back on her?


----------



## turnera

MIL telling you to reveal your sources just means that her daughter got to her, and said 'If YPbg would just tell me how he found out, I could trust him.'

We all know that is bullchit, but MIL doesn't. Ignore her.


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> I'd love to right her back and say... Thanks for the continued support but win HER back?


I definitely think you should let mother in law know you are not trying to win her back. that you did not cheat on her. However, you should cover it with honey and regret that she is choosing another man over you. 

You can also use MIL for a conduit if you phrase it right.


----------



## YPbPr

chapparal said:


> What does this mean. You would not accomodate her? Did she want to talk? Did you turn your back on her?


Wow. That was horrible grammr/post. That's what you get for typing while driving. It should be:

W tried to sleep in the master bedroom last night and I arrived to say, "Slide over." She lasted an hour I think and then went to the other room.

She wants to demonstrate dominance and I won't let her succeed.


----------



## YPbPr

I was speaking with friends tonight, at dinner, and someone suggested I got in MC tomorrow (remember it's with my W's IC who her ex-H said was a enabler), wait for us to start, look at my wife and say:

I love you. I've done everything I can to make protect our marriage but something is off. You don't trust me, I don't trust you. So, I need to move on. Maybe we'll come together again in the future but, for now, I need to do what's best for me and that means figuring out how to move forward.

Then turn to counselor and ask what she recommends.


----------



## Shaggy

You could. Sounds like a drama generator.

You could go in and agree with every complaint your wife makes. Smile and agree.

then when she's done, say what you said above, followed by "I just can't do this anymore. You told a friend that you really "fvcked up", well that makes two of us. Ciao."


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> Wow. That was horrible grammr/post. That's what you get for typing while driving. It should be:
> 
> W tried to sleep in the master bedroom last night and I arrived to say, "Slide over." She lasted an hour I think and then went to the other room.
> 
> She wants to demonstrate dominance and I won't let her succeed.


Oh, so she thought if she got there first, you would slink away and let the guest room become YOUR new bedroom? What a jerk.

SO glad you didn't fall for it.


----------



## turnera

Personally, I would go in there with copies of whatever proof you have, wait for her to say her piece ("No, you go ahead, you go first."), and then pull the papers out, put them on the table, and say "I'd like to hear from either of you why I should stay married to you when you are doing this." And then just sit back and wait. If they can't come up with a good reason, then just say "Ok, that's what I figured. I'll see the lawyer tomorrow." And leave.


----------



## iheartlife

turnera said:


> Personally, I would go in there with copies of whatever proof you have, wait for her to say her piece ("No, you go ahead, you go first."), and then pull the papers out, put them on the table, and say "I'd like to hear from either of you why I should stay married to you when you are doing this." And then just sit back and wait. If they can't come up with a good reason, then just say "Ok, that's what I figured. I'll see the lawyer tomorrow." And leave.


I totally agree. Let her sit there with the enabling IC and try to worm her way out of that one.


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> I haven't caved yet. It was a suggestion to you folk.


OK, good. That's what we're here for. For reconciliation to happen, you need boundaries. And you've stated that your source comes after her commitment. Not the other way around.



YPbPr said:


> I figure that bberry has been compromised so why not offer it up? I'm at a major standstill her since she won't move forward with transparency without knowing my sources; however, I get what you're all staying... Stick to my guns and don't reveal just to maintain my boundaries.


I think you revealing your source would be a last-ditch Hail Mary. If you have your lawyers appointment the next day, then you could tell her you read her texts for the very slim chance that she would respond by acknowledging her sins and apologizing. But it probably won't work. It's just not worth leaving the marriage with any arrows in your quiver.



YPbPr said:


> Like someone else mentioned, maybe I should say to her, "Look, acknowledge what you've been doing is wrong and apologize." That could be a first step. She did have a moment like this already a couple nights ago and I thought that wad the major first step but then she came home that day and said she couldn't do "this."


It seems like she's trying to feel you out to see what crumbs she might be able to throw you to get you to stay. Maybe she could give a weak apology, but not change any behaviors, and keep you around. It's obvious that she's not ready to make the serious changes in word and deed that would show she wants to be married to you.



YPbPr said:


> I spoke to my divorce lawyer. I do NOT speak her company's legal department. They don't have one (it's the owner's H). My attorney said looking at her bberry is of no offense and I shouldn't be afraid to tell her I did that. It won't affect D proceedings since we've only been married for such a short time and there's no tied assets.


Great. Your post was unclear on the point. If it won't affect the divorce, then it's just a boundary issue.



YPbPr said:


> OK. Here we go. This is what I was talking about. She said nothing is going on anymore. She says nothing physical happened. She kind of apologized a couple nights ago. So maybe I get her to go through these steps again but how do I get her to TRULY end affair?


The biggest indicator will be her remorse. She denies sex. Maybe she's right. But you have lots of proof that she wanted sex and she was completely inappropriate with this guy. At a minimum, she tried to have sex with another man and just wasn't successful. That's a big betrayal that needs a sincere apology. She's not yet sincere.

When she acts sincere, she might be sincere. But she can't even bring herself to act sincere. What she wants is to sweep all this under the rug and face no consequences.

Once she's willing to face consequences, you have a very good chance of her ending the affair.


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr said:


> I was speaking with friends tonight, at dinner, and someone suggested I got in MC tomorrow (remember it's with my W's IC who her ex-H said was a enabler), wait for us to start, look at my wife and say:
> 
> I love you. I've done everything I can to make protect our marriage but something is off. You don't trust me, I don't trust you. So, I need to move on. Maybe we'll come together again in the future but, for now, I need to do what's best for me and that means figuring out how to move forward.
> 
> Then turn to counselor and ask what she recommends.


I don't like that plan. It sounds too resigned to failure. You should go into MC showing an earnest desire and willingness to improve your marriage and make your wife happy, _once conditions are right for it_. Give your wife an out. Even if she likely won't take it.

Tell them that, once your wife has ended this affair, apologized, and committed to your marriage, you will kill yourself to be a better husband. But you should maintain that you refuse to stay married to your wife while she is having an affair.


----------



## iheartlife

PHTlump said:


> I don't like that plan. It sounds too resigned to failure. You should go into MC showing an earnest desire and willingness to improve your marriage and make your wife happy, _once conditions are right for it_. Give your wife an out. Even if she likely won't take it.
> 
> Tell them that, once your wife has ended this affair, apologized, and committed to your marriage, you will kill yourself to be a better husband. But you should maintain that you refuse to stay married to your wife while she is having an affair.


I like this even better.

This is exposure the way it should be--to someone who thus far has been enabling your wife 

I think his biggest issue is that he often feels that the evidence he has can be explained away to a third party. He doesn't have that slam dunk.

Am I right about that?

But you know what, let her explain all of this with the therapist sitting there. Let her say, "I'm coming clean when he reveals his sources." Maybe the enabling therapist will take her side even so--well, then all you have to do is get up and leave.


----------



## YPbPr

The VAR reported that I scared OM straight and he wants nothing to do with W now. Since the bberry has been compromised I don't care about giving it up. My new approach is:

"You should go into MC showing an earnest desire and willingness to improve your marriage and make your wife happy, once conditions are right for it."

I'll then say what is it that you need to make this work? 

Perhaps this will "Give your wife an out. Even if she likely won't take it."

Tell them that, once your wife has ended this affair, apologized, and committed to your marriage, you will kill yourself to be a better husband. But you should maintain that you refuse to stay married to your wife while she is having an affair. 

If they ask for my source I will say I looked at her blackberry. I know I will need to GREATLY defend myself on this point saying I was willing to do anything to PROTECT our marriage. It's not something I'm proud of but I thought is was justified given all the secrecy.


----------



## Shaggy

Definitely bring up the comment she made on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

How is YOUR looking at her BB any more an invasion then HER looking at your PC? She lost the "high ground" on that argument when she did the same snooping on you....don't you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> The VAR reported that I scared OM straight and he wants nothing to do with W now. Since the bberry has been compromised I don't care about giving it up. My new approach is:
> 
> "You should go into MC showing an earnest desire and willingness to improve your marriage and make your wife happy, once conditions are right for it."
> 
> I'll then say what is it that you need to make this work?
> 
> Perhaps this will "Give your wife an out. Even if she likely won't take it."
> 
> Tell them that, once your wife has ended this affair, apologized, and committed to your marriage, you will kill yourself to be a better husband. But you should maintain that you refuse to stay married to your wife while she is having an affair.
> 
> If they ask for my source I will say I looked at her blackberry. I know I will need to GREATLY defend myself on this point saying I was willing to do anything to PROTECT our marriage. It's not something I'm proud of but I thought is was justified given all the secrecy.


NEVER let anyone say you were snooping or being controling. When two people marry they become one. You do not keep secrets from yourself. If you had not checked up on her, she could be banging the OM right now. You have saved your marriage up to this point. You may have stopped her from committing adultery.

Ask her in front of the counselor if she had sex with the OM? Watch her closely for the signs of lying. Then aske her what she meant by saying she f*cked up to her friend. Come right back with that and see how she reacts......If she launches in on you immediately say no one is on board with her affair.

If the counselor believes you have violated her privacy, tell them both there is no way to save the marriage if there is not complete transparency. She did it to her first husband and now she is doing the same thing to you. She was caught both times by her husband reading her texts. And now she wants privacy so she can cheat again. Ask her for examples of what she might say she needs to keep from you. Something about how you perform like an adolescent when she can't even keep you turned on?


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> The VAR reported that I scared OM straight and he wants nothing to do with W now. Since the bberry has been compromised I don't care about giving it up. My new approach is:
> 
> "You should go into MC showing an earnest desire and willingness to improve your marriage and make your wife happy, once conditions are right for it."
> 
> I'll then say what is it that you need to make this work?
> 
> Perhaps this will "Give your wife an out. Even if she likely won't take it."
> 
> Tell them that, once your wife has ended this affair, apologized, and committed to your marriage, you will kill yourself to be a better husband. But you should maintain that you refuse to stay married to your wife while she is having an affair.
> 
> If they ask for my source I will say I looked at her blackberry. I know I will need to GREATLY defend myself on this point saying I was willing to do anything to PROTECT our marriage. It's not something I'm proud of but I thought is was justified given all the secrecy.


Could you elaborate about what you found on the VAR?


----------



## YPbPr

Wish I had read your post chapparal before going into counseling. Counseling sessions was interesting. First the counselor got us to establish the types of people we are and how we might react the fear/anxiety. I was established to be someone who reacts quickly, doesn't like the unknown, and who is passionate and fiery. W was described as someone who needs depth, time to think, likes calm, etc. I find a lot of truth to this as we are quite opposite. W's mom told me W spent very early years (3yo) in therapy to cope with arguments and loud noises. My W definitely needs calm in her life and she's a much more analytical thinker and practical analyzer compared to be who's a bit reactionary and emotional. 

I never felt ganged up on which is good but I saw a glimpse of enabling qualities in the counselor when she tried to describe Jess' reaction to her feeling for the OM by saying the relationship was just something that came up and, given the type of person W is, W is someone who needs to time to assess and understand the depth of what's happening to her. Bullsh*t!

I was entirely forthcoming, said I was willing to do whatever it would take to make us work: counseling, listening, talking, etc. I told W I looked at her BB and saw everything. She had a complete breakdown when that was put on the table. Surprisingly, the counselor didn't try to sooth her at all during that and instead continued to talk to me about it. I was honest when I said I felt guilt, shame, and regret for dipping into her private life; however, I felt justified for my actions given the secrecy, lying, and deceit. 

I also told W in therapy that I called OM. She put on an Oscar winning performance pretending she didn't know about the call. She knew. var confirmed it. She began discussing how it makes her feel like I'm controlling. She also went on to say she was scared. Meaning, she doesn't know what I'm capable of. I said, look, I'm doing whatever it takes to prevent you from escalating your "special friendship" to something more because it would be so much harder to reconcile from that position. Then I said to W, you know already. You two have talked. She denied but ask how and I spoke about what someone stated earlier in the thread about how she must know given how she tried to protect him in one of our arguments the other night implying they must have talked. She continued to deny.

I asked what she needs in this relationship and the needs were someone with depth, a partner, someone she could depend on and trust and be mature and reasonable/rational. I told her I can be all those things and I'd work my hardest to achieve them. She's just not sure if things have gotten so bad that they can be repaired. She finds my investigation to be more of the same — things she doesn't like in me. She continues to imply that my investigation might the straw the breaks the camels back and THAT could be the reason not to continue. Gimme a break!

Counseling recommend we leave and discuss if we want to continue MC and recommended we find a new person for MC while W continues IC with her. The big question to both of us was is this worth it? The R would be lots of work and we both need to consider if that's something we're willing to do.

Honest answer from me. Fine. I'll do it. W is still on the fence though. If she wanted to do it she'd say it by now but she wants to take time to think about it. If she truly is the person she is, then it's understable that she needs quiet, space, and time. She's going away to sis' place for weekend. I know a lot of you will say she might run to OM but let's see if she really does that first before we cast stones, OK?

After sessions we had dinner and talked a little bit about the meeting and little bit about the realtionship but the topic of sex came up quickly and that dominated the discussion for the remainder of dinner. I thing she's super paranoid now knowing that I know everything. She obviously knows I know what she's said about me in the bedroom. I was honest and said I felt she was pretty tame in that area and I figured that that side of her would open up more in the marriage. She went on to say she's not always been like that and that she's had great bedroom experiences. I told her I wasn't a mind reader and that she would need to articulate her needs more as it pertains to sex. I don't think she really knows herself there. Sorry to be so candid but she likes it on top (controlling?  ) and she likes it super slow. I'm more of a porn star; however, I don't act like it with her because she's do timid so, instead, it's pretty much the same routine in the bedroom over and over again. I said we could use sex therapy.

One other thing that was discussed when we talked about my recent "knowledge" was I said I knew she wanted to run off with the guy. I said, it would be hard for me to consider running off with another women, and leave you behind, without knowing if we connected physically. I implied I still think they had sex since how could she consider he was so much better than me. I said, I wouldn't run off with someone knowing I had an awesome mental connection with them. She didn't have much to say to that.

The rest of the evening was uneventful. This morning she asked what we should do. I can tell she's still in the same place and uncertain if this is what she wants. She asked if I contacted her ex-H since she saw a Google search for him on my laptop. I said no. She asked if I spoke with anyone else and I told her I spoke with her mother but left out the part about the OM (as did her mother). 

I'm thinking about pulling the var tonight before her trip. The topic of monitoring is so hot right now. It doesn't do great work at high speeds with all the noise. She mentioned she didn't know what else I might have in play and threw out the possibility of a gps. I'm thinking about leaving that in play just to confirm her weekend trip. I would pull everything right now if I knew I could somehow confirm she didn't run to OM this weekend but I think the gps is the only way of telling. 

chapparal asked about what the var confirmed this week. Here's what: she has the same, sing-song story with her friends. It goes like this... Yes. I know what I did is wrong and distasteful. Yes. I had some emotions for some guy but I told H immediately when they started and that was it. It never escalated into anything. It was flirty e-mails. I can't control my emotions but I can control my reactions. H is so immature. His actions of looking into my BB is just more immaturity. He's trying to control me. I can't live in a cage and come home every night for check in. H called OM and threatened his job (side note here: W also tells people I threatened W's job to OM as well. I never did this but if I did say something like that in the heat of moment it was mean to scare him not her. I really don't think I said this though and he might be playing her). OM told me right away and was very polite about it. OM wants nothing to do with me now though so H got that accomplished. 

Some other takeaway were that she continues to confide in former divorce attorney (and close friend) about us. Not surprised here but remember this was the the guy ex-H got concerned about. If he's such a close friend maybe I should call him and explain how I'm feeling without exposing myself since this could be the attorney who comes after me. Maybe call and ask, am I talking to my W's attorney or her friend right now?

W made a couple calls to BB company to find out what desktop software does. She was very concerned about access to BBMs. She also wanted to know how much access I might have seen.

One thing I hated hearing was W talking to old high school beau (he's harmless and they're good friends. he's also advised her not to run off with OM). I couldn't hear him on the phone but he must have asked her what's the guys name? And she says, the guy I like? [INSERT NAME HERE]. That's about as close to I have heard/seen to an acknowledgment of love, interest, etc. 

I was trying to remember if her sing-song story also includes her wanting to leave. It doesn't always but I think she was talking to attorney man saying she needs to figure out an exit strategy. She was also talking to him about how to protect OM by calling his boss and painting me to be liar/have problems.

Hope you enjoyed my new book!


----------



## bandit.45

How old are you and your wife?


----------



## Shaggy

Woa - KEEP that VAR it the car. You need to know what is said between your wife and OM if they talk.

I'm sorry to say this, but if you wife is a thinker and a planner then I have to call the BS card on the relationship with the OM. She has chosen to develop it. A thinker and a planner doesn't just stumble into an affair. On one hand she's playing that the affair just happened out of her control, and she's ok with that - but on the other hand she wants to take ending it and even deciding to stay in the marriage, which she wreck, slowly.

I'd look at the GPS and I'd listen to the VAR next week when she returns, but I'd be getting my D papers ready. 

She's more worried about being caught and monitored, than in fixing the marriage. That's someone who is checked out, and in an affair.


----------



## Almostrecovered

she seems more concerned about what you know and covering her tracks than working on the marriage

you won't get anywhere with that attitude


----------



## iheartlife

The huge problem I see in your marriage is that your wife thinks it's ok to discuss intimate private details re just about ANYTHING pertaining to the two of you. One affair is bad enough. Discussing you up and down and sideways with anyone who will listen is headed toward failure. She needs to learn about triangulating and it's too bad if this was not raised in IC. She wants to be right and so she keeps soliciting outside opinions to validate her take on every jot and tiddle.

I could not live with someone like that. If you go to MC, I feel like this is the largest issue. A chasm between you, lack of trust that seems to predate the affair, and it just seems to get wider.

I don't think, based on what she's done, that her privacy is so imprtant so she can have affairs. That's almost the least of it. She wants to discuss each marital problem endlessly with everyone but you, and transparency will put a huge end to her favorite passtime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sinnister

Sorry man. Your wife had the EA possibly PA and "needs time to think" about reconcilliation meanwhile you're ready to do everything necessary?

These things should be reversed. It seems like she really wants out.

Speaking about talking to the OM's boss to paint you as a liar to protect HIM?! No. I hope you do what's right by you.


----------



## YPbPr

Mispost. See below.


----------



## happyman64

Y,

Y the "F" are you still with this woman. Love just sucks sometimes.

Been where you are my man.

Shaggy is right. Keep the var and gps in place.

Your wife is a thinker and needs time. Yeah, she is in full control of the relationship, affair and the next step.

Good job throwing a monkey wrench in her plans but all she is doing now is figuring out how to get back in control.

I really do not think she is interested in the marriage.

What a selfish biotch.....

You deserve better. Be patient, let her have her time and when she returns without an answer to you about the future of your marriage like I predict she will do just pull the var and gps.

You will have your answer then.

Make a decision for you.

You deserve better.

HM64


----------



## YPbPr

bandit.45 said:


> How old are you and your wife?


Mid-thirties


----------



## YPbPr

Almostrecovered said:


> she seems more concerned about what you know and covering her tracks than working on the marriage
> 
> you won't get anywhere with that attitude


Agreed.



iheartlife said:


> The huge problem I see in your marriage is that your wife thinks it's ok to discuss intimate private details re just about ANYTHING pertaining to the two of you. One affair is bad enough. Discussing you up and down and sideways with anyone who will listen is headed toward failure. She needs to learn about triangulating and it's too bad if this was not raised in IC. She wants to be right and so she keeps soliciting outside opinions to validate her take on every jot and tiddle.


I hear what you're saying but she's not talking to strangers. Only those who she deems as close friends and, in the interest of being fair, I'm talking with ANYONE who will listen. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just me.



iheartlife said:


> I don't think, based on what she's done, that her privacy is so imprtant so she can have affairs. That's almost the least of it. She wants to discuss each marital problem endlessly with everyone but you, and transparency will put a huge end to her favorite passtime.


She'll tell you she has decided to discuss it with me but I haven't listened and now I'm only listening b/c she went along and did this. I say to that, I'm listening! Let's work on it but now she doesn't want to. Lame. 



sinnister said:


> Sorry man. Your wife had the EA possibly PA and "needs time to think" about reconcilliation meanwhile you're ready to do everything necessary?
> 
> These things should be reversed. It seems like she really wants out.
> 
> Speaking about talking to the OM's boss to paint you as a liar to protect HIM?! No. I hope you do what's right by you.


I agree. I think she wants out and she wants me to do it. I guess I'm stuck in that realm of how do I best protect myself and part of me wants to "win" and come out of this the hero. "She cheated on me!" Maybe I need to get over myself.



happyman64 said:


> Y,
> 
> Y the "F" are you still with this woman. Love just sucks sometimes.
> 
> Been where you are my man.
> 
> Shaggy is right. Keep the var and gps in place.
> 
> Your wife is a thinker and needs time. Yeah, she is in full control of the relationship, affair and the next step.
> 
> Good job throwing a monkey wrench in her plans but all she is doing now is figuring out how to get back in control.
> 
> I really do not think she is interested in the marriage.
> 
> What a selfish biotch.....
> 
> You deserve better. Be patient, let her have her time and when she returns without an answer to you about the future of your marriage like I predict she will do just pull the var and gps.
> 
> You will have your answer then.
> 
> Make a decision for you.
> 
> You deserve better.
> 
> HM64


I will follow yours and Shaggy's advice and keep the elements in play. Meanwhile, I'll file for the papers.


----------



## YPbPr

Anyone know the legalities of var/gps? Car is in W's name.


----------



## Shaggy

YPbPr said:


> Anyone know the legalities of var/gps? Car is in W's name.


Car is a joint asset of the marriage. The name it's in is only DMV registration,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

keep the VAR in the car and until you here the words" i want my marriage" see is a long way away from being ready to do the heavy lifting here.
If you are going to talk to her lawyer friend, you better get a lawyer so that he/she can express your feelings. My thinking is this tactic will renforce a propable consequence if she does change her view of *her* marriage.

I'm not sure what will really get WW to turn a corner, but having a lawyer may be a tactic that your WW sees as you willing to let her go and there by her getting on one side of the fence or the other.


----------



## keko

Which state?


----------



## the guy

Get a lawyer, you need to start looking at options.


----------



## the guy

On a positive note you have OM out of the picture.


----------



## Shaggy

Do not talk to her lawyer friend. Not one word. It will only bite you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

the guy said:


> On a positive note you have OM out of the picture.


Maybe -- Maybe NOT !!!


----------



## the guy

@shaggy, that makes sence......Op still need a lawyer IMHO


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> Which state?


The constitution state. 

FYI/ Will not contact lawyer friend. Still trying to properly gt W's mom to understand level of W's "friendship."


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> The constitution state.


That's a two party-consent state, so you need everyone's permission to record/use it in court.


----------



## YPbPr

Not trying to gather evidence to use against her however I don't want my actions used against me.


----------



## keko

The car is a marriage property, so you wont really get in much trouble. That's even if a prosecutor wants to go after you, not likely.


----------



## the guy

Your actions won't be used against you ...just don't get caught.
I took the chance, its worth the risk over not having the know.


----------



## Almostrecovered

CT has a "one party consent law"

meaning if one of the people in the conversation is recording then it's legal

so IOW, it is technically illegal in CT


----------



## keko

Almostrecovered said:


> CT has a "one party consent law"
> 
> meaning if one of the people in the conversation is recording then it's legal
> 
> so IOW, it is technically illegal in CT


COVERTLY RECORDING TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS


----------



## Almostrecovered

strange, I saw CT in an one party consent list on another site


----------



## PHTlump

I think you need to set a deadline for yourself. Right now, your wife has ended her EA (or had it ended for her). But, she's not ready to commit to you. You're sitting around waiting for her to slowly inch her way back to your side of the fence.

At some point, you need to decide if she is in our out. Decide what timeline is best for you (week, month, 3 months, etc.) and circle that date on your calendar. If that day comes and she's still sitting on the fence trying to decide what she wants, then you need to make the decision for her.

Good luck.


----------



## keko

Almostrecovered said:


> strange, I saw CT in an one party consent list on another site


maybe, Im not sure if the laws have changed and the site(s) weren't updated or something else.


----------



## Almostrecovered

keko said:


> maybe, Im not sure if the laws have changed and the site(s) weren't updated or something else.



moot point anyways, he cant record legally since neither are in consent

that said, pretty rare for prosecutors to go after that crime but lawyer friend may file a civil suit, you never know


----------



## the guy

So what!!!
Take the chance and if he gets caught then OP can pick up trash alone the freeway for a weekend.

So lets see;
Find out is WW is still f^cking me over or picking up trash along the freeway on week ends.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> The constitution state.
> 
> FYI/ Will not contact lawyer friend. Still trying to properly gt W's mom to understand level of W's "friendship."


Go online and find a recap of the book Not Just Friends by Glass, which explains how friendships turn into affairs. Email that to her.


----------



## turnera

PHTlump said:


> I think you need to set a deadline for yourself. Right now, your wife has ended her EA (or had it ended for her). But, she's not ready to commit to you. You're sitting around waiting for her to slowly inch her way back to your side of the fence.
> 
> At some point, you need to decide if she is in our out. Decide what timeline is best for you (week, month, 3 months, etc.) and circle that date on your calendar. If that day comes and she's still sitting on the fence trying to decide what she wants, then you need to make the decision for her.


QFT. This is VERY important. Give yourself til end of August or something, and if she hasn't turned a corner and focused back on you, get the divorce wheels in motion.

And do not say ONE MORE WORD to her about your sources, past or present. You've done enough damage telling her about the BB.


----------



## YPbPr

I think I'm already out. Thinking about telling her tonight she can do whatever she wants. Go to your sisters, don't go. I don't care. Considering filing on Monday. W's mom was super weird on the phone. Nothing like yesterday. I told her I don't believe I have to win W back and that it's more about W winning me back. I told her my suspicions were confirmed and felt W wasn't in it anymore. She said I think you're right and then gave me a goodbye like this could be it. Fine.


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> I think I'm already out. Thinking about telling her tonight she can do whatever she wants. Go to your sisters, don't go. I don't care. Considering filing on Monday. W's mom was super weird on the phone. Nothing like yesterday. I told her I don't believe I have to win W back and that it's more about W winning me back. I told her my suspicions were confirmed and felt W wasn't in it anymore. She said I think you're right and then gave me a goodbye like this could be it. Fine.



Amazing how fast your WW's family dumps you isn't it?

Except for my wife's sister, I haven't had a single call from anyone in her family, and I've known these people 22 years.


----------



## Shaggy

I wonder if your wife told her mom she was really going to meet the OM this weekend. The mom wasn't shocked when you accused your w of cheating was she? Very telling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

YPbPr said:


> I think I'm already out. Thinking about telling her tonight she can do whatever she wants. Go to your sisters, don't go. I don't care. Considering filing on Monday. W's mom was super weird on the phone. Nothing like yesterday. I told her I don't believe I have to win W back and that it's more about W winning me back. I told her my suspicions were confirmed and felt W wasn't in it anymore. She said I think you're right and then gave me a goodbye like this could be it. Fine.


I think you are correct when you wrote -- "I think I'm already out. Thinking about telling her tonight she can do whatever she wants. Go to your sisters, don't go. I don't care. Considering filing on Monday."


----------



## Shaggy

I think you should just let things be over the weekend. Let the var etc do its work. Maybe get yourself out of the house and play golf or walk the beach rtc. Something to keep you busy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> I think you should just let things be over the weekend. Let the var etc do its work. Maybe get yourself out of the house and play golf or walk the beach rtc. Something to keep you busy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are on the roller coaster and feeling down right now. 
Don't jump into a life changing decision quickly. Like a few have said give it a little time. If divorce is right for now it will be right in the future. Sit back and see what happens in the next few days at least. She is also going on a roller coaster ride and may be thinking hard about what to do. Its time to be strong and have a little patience.


----------



## YPbPr

So a lot has happened since I last updated everyone. W came home from work and had a ****tail with me. We had an open discussion about us and our issues. An unassuming man would it was complimentary step toward working on us. It's not. 

Before she came home, I decided I would have a chat with her and then go out and by going out I'd be a bit vague and maybe play up the idea that I'd be fooling around. I stopped wearing my wedding ring but she didn't commented on that. 

So after our chat I went out late and later came home with a buddy to have a few more drinks. After my friend left I went to swap vars in W's car and decided since my W was deep asleep I would listen to this weeks var since I wasn't tired. Why ruin a weekend day right?

W continues to have phone calls with attorney/paternal-friend guy, high school boyfriend guy, etc. Here's where I'm at with these two. These are her doormat guys who listen and validate everything she says. Enablers. She tells them, "Oh, my life is so hard. How do I get into these messes," etc, etc and they lap it up and try to offer her support and advice. Unlike what she thinks of me, these guys listen to her. I will say this... She's not giving them the entire truth. She's not giving ANYONE the entire truth.

So W called OM. Like usual, they engage in conversation about work, co-workers, etc. OM must have asked a question about me (I cannot her him) and here's where I started to finally realize her truths. Some of her comments were, he only knows about the flirty e-mails he had about the dinner you took me out to. W says, I'm standing by my story that we only go out in group settings with other co-workers. W says, he's seen me talk about you with other friends. W says, he's got nothing on us. This part of the conversation alone got my fueled up to tell her it's over since she's still lying to me about contacting him, he didn't listen to me about not contacting her and they're still engaging in innappropriate behavior. But I kept listening...

They were about to hang up but then he must have got flirtatious with her. What did you say W said. She continues... "No. You'll hear from me. I promise. Yes. I have... ...they don't care.... ...Worthless and chump have come up... ...do you want me to call you worthless in bed?... ...Mr. Chip Chipperton, lol... ...I'll have to try not to laugh but I'll try."

That was it for me. I have no idea what the worthless stuff mean. Maybe he asked if she spoke with family/friends and she was saying they don't care and maybe the worthless and chump stuff was about me. Maybe not. What does it matter? She want to try calling him worthless IN BED.

It was 4a and I had been drinking but that was it. I woke wife up and said I'm filing for divorce. I was extremely angry, mean, and confrontational. She didn't know what the heck hit her over the head at the point and for TWO HOURS I unloaded on her. Every possible I had thinking about her or talking with other people about her (her psychological makeup, character, etc) were all said leaving any name out of it. I told her I called her ex-H, I called her garbage and I told her to go to her sisters and never return and the papers would be ready on Monday. I went off hard and she's the type of girl who lets those moments really bother her and I probably scared her for life. I feel bad but perhaps it was cathartic for me.

In those two hours there were a lot of reactions from her. A lot of, "What happened? What just happened to make you act like this?" I told her I wasn't even going to discuss that. Then, like in times past, she wants to start exploring the transparency thing. I said... You want to save this marriage? Quit your job. 

I'll spare you guys all the details. I said, I don't even care what room you sleep in. I'm going to sleep in the guest room right now and stay the F away from me. She woke me up in the morning and I think she was trying to catch me off guard. I could tell she somehow got some of her confidence back and she probed a bit about my sources and what happened. I said get the F out of here. We're done, I'm filing for divorce, and don't come back.

She left and I called her sister. Like I told my W in the night, I told W's sis what I really thought about her support and I let her know I knew about her own EA (possible PA) and how could she for a moment give any rational help/support to someone in W's shoes. I'm sure you've guessed right now that W's sis is just like W implying my snooping was very harmful and the things I told W in the night were very damaging. She went on to talk about my W's situation just like my W's therapist talked about which is... this situation (EA/PA) in my W's life just happened or popped up and since my W's sis and W are "reasonable" people who are into process they require time to process and figure out what those feeling/situation mean. PLEASE!

W's sis started crying when she felt I might say something to her husband about her own dealings. She also tried to convince me that I knew nothing about her life and knew nothing about her EA/PA. She said, "My husband and I have adult conversation and talk about lives in mature ways." I replied, "So did you tell your H about your special relationship with your AP?" She didn't have much to say to that and the conversation was a loose-loose so I shut it down.

Since she left yesterday morning there's been no contact. My own inner-circle has been informed of what I know and everyone agrees to cut W loose. My parents are on my side, too.

Well... As I write this, W just texted asking can we talk today? Not sure what to do with that. I am thinking about calling her father since he's the only person I haven't spoken with. Just like I manned up to ask for his daughter's hand in marriage, I figure I would politely say to him, I have exposed her affair and I will not be in an open marriage. I'm filing for divorce and I'd like her to leave. I loved her. I love you but this is what I must do. I never meant for this grief to enter into our family and I hope you respect my decision.

One other thing I've learned. I've started to question why has this happened to me? I've had to live-in girl friends cheat on me and now my wife. One thing I heard on the var was her telling OM, "At least you know how to manage me," and that spoke volumes. Even though my wife is so controlling she wants a man to tell her what to do and I have become too much of a Nice Guy. Period. I need to work on that.

Let me know what do about the text and how to handle things moving forward.

Sorry I'M here


----------



## jh52

YPbPr said:


> So a lot has happened since I last updated everyone. W came home from work and had a ****tail with me. We had an open discussion about us and our issues. An unassuming man would it was complimentary step toward working on us. It's not.
> 
> Before she came home, I decided I would have a chat with her and then go out and by going out I'd be a bit vague and maybe play up the idea that I'd be fooling around. I stopped wearing my wedding ring but she didn't commented on that.
> 
> So after our chat I went out late and later came home with a buddy to have a few more drinks. After my friend left I went to swap vars in W's car and decided since my W was deep asleep I would listen to this weeks var since I wasn't tired. Why ruin a weekend day right?
> 
> W continues to have phone calls with attorney/paternal-friend guy, high school boyfriend guy, etc. Here's where I'm at with these two. These are her doormat guys who listen and validate everything she says. Enablers. She tells them, "Oh, my life is so hard. How do I get into these messes," etc, etc and they lap it up and try to offer her support and advice. Unlike what she thinks of me, these guys listen to her. I will say this... She's not giving them the entire truth. She's not giving ANYONE the entire truth.
> 
> So W called OM. Like usual, they engage in conversation about work, co-workers, etc. OM must have asked a question about me (I cannot her him) and here's where I started to finally realize her truths. Some of her comments were, he only knows about the flirty e-mails he had about the dinner you took me out to. W says, I'm standing by my story that we only go out in group settings with other co-workers. W says, he's seen me talk about you with other friends. W says, he's got nothing on us. This part of the conversation alone got my fueled up to tell her it's over since she's still lying to me about contacting him, he didn't listen to me about not contacting her and they're still engaging in innappropriate behavior. But I kept listening...
> 
> They were about to hang up but then he must have got flirtatious with her. What did you say W said. She continues... "No. You'll hear from me. I promise. Yes. I have... ...they don't care.... ...Worthless and chump have come up... ...do you want me to call you worthless in bed?... ...Mr. Chip Chipperton, lol... ...I'll have to try not to laugh but I'll try."
> 
> That was it for me. I have no idea what the worthless stuff mean. Maybe he asked if she spoke with family/friends and she was saying they don't care and maybe the worthless and chump stuff was about me. Maybe not. What does it matter? She want to try calling him worthless IN BED.
> 
> It was 4a and I had been drinking but that was it. I woke wife up and said I'm filing for divorce. I was extremely angry, mean, and confrontational. She didn't know what the heck hit her over the head at the point and for TWO HOURS I unloaded on her. Every possible I had thinking about her or talking with other people about her (her psychological makeup, character, etc) were all said leaving any name out of it. I told her I called her ex-H, I called her garbage and I told her to go to her sisters and never return and the papers would be ready on Monday. I went off hard and she's the type of girl who lets those moments really bother her and I probably scared her for life. I feel bad but perhaps it was cathartic for me.
> 
> In those two hours there were a lot of reactions from her. A lot of, "What happened? What just happened to make you act like this?" I told her I wasn't even going to discuss that. Then, like in times past, she wants to start exploring the transparency thing. I said... You want to save this marriage? Quit your job.
> 
> I'll spare you guys all the details. I said, I don't even care what room you sleep in. I'm going to sleep in the guest room right now and stay the F away from me. She woke me up in the morning and I think she was trying to catch me off guard. I could tell she somehow got some of her confidence back and she probed a bit about my sources and what happened. I said get the F out of here. We're done, I'm filing for divorce, and don't come back.
> 
> She left and I called her sister. Like I told my W in the night, I told W's sis what I really thought about her support and I let her know I knew about her own EA (possible PA) and how could she for a moment give any rational help/support to someone in W's shoes. I'm sure you've guessed right now that W's sis is just like W implying my snooping was very harmful and the things I told W in the night were very damaging. She went on to talk about my W's situation just like my W's therapist talked about which is... this situation (EA/PA) in my W's life just happened or popped up and since my W's sis and W are "reasonable" people who are into process they require time to process and figure out what those feeling/situation mean. PLEASE!
> 
> W's sis started crying when she felt I might say something to her husband about her own dealings. She also tried to convince me that I knew nothing about her life and knew nothing about her EA/PA. She said, "My husband and I have adult conversation and talk about lives in mature ways." I replied, "So did you tell your H about your special relationship with your AP?" She didn't have much to say to that and the conversation was a loose-loose so I shut it down.
> 
> Since she left yesterday morning there's been no contact. My own inner-circle has been informed of what I know and everyone agrees to cut W loose. My parents are on my side, too.
> 
> Well... As I write this, W just texted asking can we talk today? Not sure what to do with that. I am thinking about calling her father since he's the only person I haven't spoken with. Just like I manned up to ask for his daughter's hand in marriage, I figure I would politely say to him, I have exposed her affair and I will not be in an open marriage. I'm filing for divorce and I'd like her to leave. I loved her. I love you but this is what I must do. I never meant for this grief to enter into our family and I hope you respect my decision.
> 
> One other thing I've learned. I've started to question why has this happened to me? I've had to live-in girl friends cheat on me and now my wife. One thing I heard on the var was her telling OM, "At least you know how to manage me," and that spoke volumes. Even though my wife is so controlling she wants a man to tell her what to do and I have become too much of a Nice Guy. Period. I need to work on that.
> 
> Let me know what do about the text and how to handle things moving forward.
> 
> Sorry I'M here


What's left to be said to your wife. You said you were going to file tomorrow -- now follow through. Don't have any contact till you file. You have to mean what you say -- and follow through. Your wife and OM are just making a fool of you now. Your wife wants to know your sources --- and how you are finding things out -- that's all she wants now (Not you). You heard that they were alone at times -- calling you names on the VAR -- have some pride and dignity for yourself -- and do what is necessary for YOU !!

As far as contacting her father -- that is up to you.

Take care !!


----------



## Shaggy

Ok, if you are ready to D AND if you do not need to prove adultry here is what I suggest.

Transfer the VAR to a computer file. Edit it down to the parts between her and the OM into a separate file. 

That is your trump card - take a copy of it and the original an save them someplace safe - like a USB stick that you can give to a friend to keep or lock away at work.

See if you can possibly retrieve the current VAR in her car, but even if you can't- it's time to blow this thing open:

I would then talk to your wife - f2f if you can stand seeing her - and repeat the following bit:

"I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you."

the next move is up to you, you should wait a couple of days - but I would drop the bomb on the OM and her at work. 

You now know they have dinners together - an they are using company money to finance it. She's likely done overnights or rented hotel rooms paid for by her company there - so at a minimum they are using company money to finance their dates.

Tell her family and her enabling friends that you have proof they've been meeting up and sleeping together - do not offer the proof, but send it our naming his name.

Inform them in this note, you will not live in an open marriage including the OM and you are filing for divorce.

This is to let them know what has gone on, if she tries to later introduce the OM as a new guy. They will know you are telling the truth.


----------



## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> Ok, if you are ready to D AND if you do not need to prove adultry here is what I suggest.
> 
> Transfer the VAR to a computer file. Edit it down to the parts between her and the OM into a separate file.
> 
> That is your trump card - take a copy of it and the original an save them someplace safe - like a USB stick that you can give to a friend to keep or lock away at work.
> 
> See if you can possibly retrieve the current VAR in her car, but even if you can't- it's time to blow this thing open:
> 
> I would then talk to your wife - f2f if you can stand seeing her - and repeat the following bit:
> 
> "I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you."
> 
> the next move is up to you, you should wait a couple of days - but I would drop the bomb on the OM and her at work.
> 
> You now know they have dinners together - an they are using company money to finance it. She's likely done overnights or rented hotel rooms paid for by her company there - so at a minimum they are using company money to finance their dates.
> 
> Tell her family and her enabling friends that you have proof they've been meeting up and sleeping together - do not offer the proof, but send it our naming his name.
> 
> Inform them in this note, you will not live in an open marriage including the OM and you are filing for divorce.
> 
> This is to let them know what has gone on, if she tries to later introduce the OM as a new guy. They will know you are telling the truth.


Yes do all of this. Call the OM back and ask him what he did not understand about what you told him. Do it as soon as possible, let HIM sweat throught the weekend. Monday morning call his company and your wifes company and give them he!!.

As soon as possible call yor brother in law and tell him all about his wife. Out the whole nasty bunch. Do you know who SIL POSOM is?

If it were me I would answer her text and tell her her stuff was in the front yard if she wants to pick it up.


----------



## Shaggy

Yeah, the moment you confirmed continued contact, along with them agreeing to continue the relationships, PLUS the talk about bed etc - you now have your proof. 

That was a conversation only two people in an physical affair have.

So stop worrying about getting more evidence - your WW knows the truth and so do you.

MC etc is total waste of time since she's in an active affair.

You also know why she wanted to know your sources: She wanted to know what you've found out, and she wanted to know how to take it better underground.

Problem for her - is she has now given it away. You know of dinners and them telling each other things in bed. I wonder if the comment about calling him useless in bed, was a stab at you? or perhaps he likes her to dominate him and be nasty? You said he was a bit of a wimp after all.

It's time to nuke her secrecy and the affair.


----------



## keko

Holy sh!t.

Call her father, then expose both of them to their companies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

A bit of anger does wonders. You did good.

Carry on with the exposure, read the newbie thread and send the exposure letter to her work , in parallel target their coworkers if you can work out their private or company mail addresses. As for the OM , you warned him, his family and friends are targets for your exposure. 

Expose the SIL affair directly to her husban and if you know her OM's name give it out. 

Suck in the pain, be clinical and methodical in what you do and learn from others , do not talk or tell anyone of your plans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## Chaparral

I sure do like the way AR and Shaggy think. HAHA


----------



## Almostrecovered

one more


----------



## Shaggy

I think you should tell the SIL husband about what you know, not only does he have a right to know - but it does two other things:

1. It will help remove your SIL as a support system for your wife, since she will both hate your wife for telling you, but she will also be busy dealing with her husband.

2. It might be your only chance to let him know without you being seeing as just causing more trouble. Doing it now has the appearance of you coming fully clean, and it makes it more credible.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Don't take any calls from her , focus on yourself and do what you have to do to destroy this affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks so much everyone. I knew I could write that post this morning and by the time I came back from the hardware store I'd receive ideas. Here's my plan.

-Backup var to digital files and save in duplicate in different places
-Text wife back later today and say ""I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you. I will not continue this conversation any longer. If you want to come home, I'll put your stuff on the lawn for you so you can take it and leave."
-Call OM and ask him what he didn't understand about NC
-Call W's father and say, ""Sorry, I don't know how to handle W's relationship with OM'S NAME. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing W. I loved her. I love you but I won't tolerate W's confirmed affair. I'm so sorry this happened to our family."
-Tomorrow, expose OM to employer
-Tomorrow, expose W to employer
-Tomorrow, expose SIL's H to his W's OM (I feel like doing this to him at work would be better than dropping the bomb now while he's at home with my W and his W)


----------



## YPbPr

Almostrecovered said:


> No way! I love War Games!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Personally I wouldn't call OM I would just expose him to work without warning


----------



## keko

I would suggest you do face-to-face conversation with your FIL.

edit: record all the calls you make from this point on.


----------



## Almostrecovered

yes keep the VAR on your person now, protect yourself from bogus charges


----------



## Chaparral

keko said:


> I would suggest you do face-to-face conversation with your FIL.
> 
> edit: record all the calls you make from this point on.


Maybe a face to face with BIL too. This is hard news to be given at work.

Praying for you all.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Almostrecovered said:


> yes keep the VAR on your person now, protect yourself from bogus charges


This is a must .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

Well, obviously all this back and forth over transparency was exactly what you feared--just her trying to gaslight you and trying to make sure that it was effective.

Do NOT contact the OM. It is always a pointless exercise. All you do is help him get his ducks in a row and make you out to be the crazy one.

He showed you he was scared. So you know that outing him will be quite effective.

I also agree about outing SIL. Time for the toxic family to learn what it really means to be a faithful, loyal spouse. She probably damaged your relationship far more than you will ever know by "supporting" your wife's shenanigans.

Talking to your WS's father also sounds like the right thing. You do it in a respectful way, you tell him you love your wife and you have done your level best to save your marriage. You gave your wife more than her fair share of opportunities to stop lying to your face and she chose to do the opposite. No one deserves to be treated that way.


----------



## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> Personally I wouldn't call OM I would just expose him to work without warning


Sorry I'm more vindictive. I'm sure stbxw has called him but he still has hope. I would f!ck up his weekend. He was given a second chance. He's scum.


----------



## Eli-Zor

YPbPr said:


> Thanks so much everyone. I knew I could write that post this morning and by the time I came back from the hardware store I'd receive ideas. Here's my plan.
> 
> -Backup var to digital files and save in duplicate in different places
> -Text wife back later today and say ""I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you. I will not continue this conversation any longer. If you want to come home, I'll put your stuff on the lawn for you so you can take it and leave."
> -Call OM and ask him what he didn't understand about NC
> -Call W's father and say, ""Sorry, I don't know how to handle W's relationship with OM'S NAME. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing W. I loved her. I love you but I won't tolerate W's confirmed affair. I'm so sorry this happened to our family."
> -Tomorrow, expose OM to employer
> -Tomorrow, expose W to employer
> -Tomorrow, expose SIL's H to his W's OM (I feel like doing this to him at work would be better than dropping the bomb now while he's at home with my W and his W)


Only other advice is she must know she is accountable for half the bills even of she is not in the house.

Show no mercy as waywards are cold and callious when it comes to loved ones. A time will come when you will decide if you want this person in your life (your wife) , until then assume not.

When talking to your FIL let out that while tracking your wife you found out that your SIL is having her own affair and your wife and her are sharing ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Let OMs company know you are exploring all legal remedies against them and him.


----------



## Eli-Zor

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Scan the thread for a template letter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Do not warn the OM. You already warned him what would happen. Just drop the work bomb on him.

- After you text her. Go dark- DO NOT respond to her in anyway for 72 hours or even longer if you can do it.

- She just might show up at your home. Consider taking important items and securing them offsite. 

- have her bags packed and at the door. You can't kick her out of the house,but if he stuff is packed she just might leave on her own.

- remember what you are dealing with here: You talked to her, voiced your worries etc. Her response was to lie, and contact the OM and reassure him. Did you get reassurance? No - you got told to wait, and lied to you, and demanded to know your sources.

She has chosen the affair, so remember that when she lies again about wanting to work it out with you.


----------



## Almostrecovered

chapparal said:


> Sorry I'm more vindictive. I'm sure stbxw has called him but he still has hope. I would f!ck up his weekend. He was given a second chance. He's scum.


why give him a chance to do any sort of damage control, if you want to fvck him up, do it right and don't screw it up with a petty 
call to him


----------



## Shaggy

chapparal said:


> Sorry I'm more vindictive. I'm sure stbxw has called him but he still has hope. I would f!ck up his weekend. He was given a second chance. He's scum.


Yes he is scum, but don't you think the CW will be calling him today right after the text?

At best I would perhaps call him and say "BTW, I've heard you're worthless in bed.", and hang up.

He will know.


----------



## keko

You might want to file for divorce on grounds of adultery, your wife will be labeled a cheater for the rest of her life.


----------



## aug

This is your wife's second marriage? I suppose she knows the process of divorce and is more experience at it. So, protect your assets if you havent already.


----------



## YPbPr

Yes. Wife's second marriage. First marriage was for three years and her ex-H told me he got taken to the bank. 

New plan...

-Backup var to digital files and save in duplicate in different places
-Ignore all communication
-Should W return home... Say "I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle that you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you. I'd for you to move out and return my ring."

From there I won't engage in any more conversation unless she wants to talk about moving out or giving me my ring. Tomorrow I'll start the legal process and I'll let the attorney sort out all of the exposure tactics etc (some of which are already mentioned earlier).

All of the little tidbits about telling W and/or OM about the things I know could be a mistake. I think silence is golden here.


----------



## Shaggy

Retrieve the current in car VAR if you can.

I don't think you should tell her how you know, but I do think you should inform her that you do know. Stop the games with is she cheating or not. Inform her you do know for sure and you're simply done.


----------



## Shaggy

btw- attorney's will talk you out of exposure. Their job is to file papers and expedite your divorce as quickly as possible. Exposure etc, is a personal matter.


----------



## iheartlife

Shaggy said:


> Retrieve the current in car VAR if you can.


As fixated as she has been on how you know, I'd do this too. They will both know the conversation you were referring to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Yes silance is golden. My biggest concern right now if you engage either one of them, is that emotions get away from you and you start showing your hand.

Go dark, they both had there chance and failed misserably. 

I'm glad you reconsider engaginging the two of them. So now is the time to expose to others, ie. FIL and Co. HR Dept.. get the lawyer to serve her ASAP at her work.

When you talk to lawyer remember to;
*See if you can name OM in the docs
*Moral clause preventing OM being around kids
*Ask lawyer who his biggest advisary is and consult them(Don't let lawyer know your doing this)
*The legality to how you got the evidence

The lawyer may tell you some of the things are irrelevent, but ask him to go after everything and let her contest. Even if OM named in docs is irrelevent, have him fugure out away to somehow get him in the docs when she is served so that a point can be made. Tell lawyer you talk to OM about NC

You did great brother, its time your WW feels the end result consequence to her action...so again go after everything and let her contest. This tactic will cost you some dough but the statement alone is worth it.


----------



## Eli-Zor

How did this come into the plan

". Tomorrow I'll start the legal process and I'll let the attorney sort out all of the exposure tactics etc (some of which are already mentioned earlier)."

Sounds like your hiding away from the problem , you do the exposure and do not tell the attorney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

@ Eli-
The VAR confirmed a PA last night


----------



## Chaparral

Expose the oM tomorrow morning first thing. BTW he may not be as scared as he acted. They think they are really playing you and that you' re a spineless fool. That's why they were talking about "worthless" in bed.


----------



## Eli-Zor

the guy said:


> @ Eli-
> The VAR confirmed a PA last night


I understood that ; it his statement I challenge

"I'll let the attorney sort out all of the exposure tactics"

Unless I misunderstood this statement.The attorney is going to do squat about exposure and is likely to recommend against it.

He should still file and deal with the exposure himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Eli-Zor said:


> I understood that ; it his statement I challenge
> 
> "I'll let the attorney sort out all of the exposure tactics"
> 
> Unless I misunderstood this statement.The attorney is going to do squat about exposure and is likely to recommend against it.
> 
> He should still file and deal with the exposure himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


100% agree. He needs to understand the lawyer exclusively about executing the legal process of ending the marriage contract.

Everything else is outside the scope of the lawyer. 

So exposure to HR, exposure to family etc. Needs to be done by OP


----------



## happyman64

YPbPr said:


> Thanks so much everyone. I knew I could write that post this morning and by the time I came back from the hardware store I'd receive ideas. Here's my plan.
> 
> -Backup var to digital files and save in duplicate in different places
> -Text wife back later today and say ""I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you. I will not continue this conversation any longer. If you want to come home, I'll put your stuff on the lawn for you so you can take it and leave."
> -Call OM and ask him what he didn't understand about NC
> -Call W's father and say, ""Sorry, I don't know how to handle W's relationship with OM'S NAME. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing W. I loved her. I love you but I won't tolerate W's confirmed affair. I'm so sorry this happened to our family."
> -Tomorrow, expose OM to employer
> -Tomorrow, expose W to employer
> -Tomorrow, expose SIL's H to his W's OM (I feel like doing this to him at work would be better than dropping the bomb now while he's at home with my W and his W)


Y,

I like your plan. If you put your wifes things on the lawn also put a sign with them explaining to the neighbors that these items are not for curbside pickup but so your wife can pick them up on her way to her boyfriends house???

HM64


----------



## YPbPr

FWIW, once PA was confirmed I felt I didn't need to monitor anymore. I've heard all your advice re: exposure/lawyer. I'm sitting tight for now and the idea is to find a laywer who's interested in exposure. If they're not, I'll deal with it myself.

If I could buy you all a drink I would.


----------



## keko

Are you able to confirm which times/where she was meeting with OM? Seems like she has been doing it for a long time and has been good at hiding it.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> FWIW, once PA was confirmed I felt I didn't need to monitor anymore. I've heard all your advice re: exposure/lawyer. I'm sitting tight for now and the idea is to find a laywer who's interested in exposure. If they're not, I'll deal with it myself.
> 
> If I could buy you all a drink I would.


When I say retrieve the VAR, I mean so that it isn't found, not so you can listen to any more of their drivel. You've done that, right?


----------



## diwali123

I just read this whole thread, well only the OP's posts. I'm so sorry you've had to go through this. It amazes me that people will go to such lengths to cheat and to go back and forth between wanting to stay and wanting to go.
It sounds like she wanted to know how you got your info so she could take measures to keep you from getting any further info. 
I wish you luck, I hope that the divorce process is fairly easy. If I were you I wouldn't reveal the sources of your info if you don't have to.


----------



## the guy

I find it interesting to assume how it all played. So Y- intercept emails and does a confrontation. Then Mrs. Y- reverts to vocal coms thinking emails and text are compromised, then gets busted big time with VAR.

You couldn't have planned it if you tried.

Mrs.Y- must be going nuts trying to figure it all out, especially when she told OM that Y- had nothing and hours later she's walking out the door.

I wish I was a fly on the wall over at her sister house.

I mean Y- approached his last confrontation with such confidence, that it is a lesson to be learned for all the newbies.

As painful as it was and all that anger....it had to have been empowering to be able to let WW go nowing with certianty that he was making a accurate dicision in his approach with his last confrontation. How effective it was...well we will see when WW is served and HR Dept. is notified.

@Y- prepare your self emotionaly for the next few step. After the exposure she will be pissed and want you dead. Then as reality starts to set in you will get the lets make it work routine. So If I'm correct she will start to chace you. If I'm not correct then she is not your problem anymore. either way you are going somewere with this and the limbo has been lifted.

The next few month will the D gets closer to being finalized you will see if your WW takes the high road, or continues to drown her sorrow with booze, men and self pity. (Ref. to Bandit.45 CWI thread)

So prepare your self she has 2 directions to take. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

My $0.02 with no kids or assets, it looks like a break for both of you.(ref to Shamwow CWI thread)

Its a shame that WW Co. put all there eggs in one basket with your wife and her "client". The conflict of interest will blow both Co. wide open.


----------



## Shaggy

Y, is it possible for you to pack your essentials and live in a hotel for a couple of days when she returns. Don't even be there when she returns, but have her bags packed at the door waiting.

Be sure to place a VAR in the place to catch her response.


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> Y, is it possible for you to pack your essentials and live in a hotel for a couple of days when she returns. Don't even be there when she returns, but have her bags packed at the door waiting.
> 
> Be sure to place a VAR in the place to catch her response.


 If you do that, add a video recorder for when she brings OM in the house.


----------



## Chaparral

I would not leave the house under any circumsatance. As a matter of fact the first thing I would have done would be to change the locks and let her know it. ( I know he might have to change them back) But that would be such a statement. If she tries to come back in I would ask her why she doesn't move in with OM, doesn't he want to live with a two time divorced, serial cheater? I would tell POSOM I will be waiting to hear she has cheated on him, too, so I could have a beer and do the happy dance.

Forget about looking for a lawyer that is open to outing them, thats on you. Nukem Monday morning while the iron is hot and they can't play offense before you blow this whole deal sky high.

Find the biggest shark attorney you can find to protect yourself from what she did to her last husband.

Just courious, why haven't you had kids?


----------



## lordmayhem

Can't add much more except to say once again, a VAR has exposed another PA. They are worth their weight in gold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

To quickly answer the kids question, we've only been married a few months. 

Wife came home mid afternoon and kvass taken by surprise. Door was locked so she had to knock. I opened and let her in. She was calm. So was I. I was getting ready to head out and I told her so. She asked to talk and I said id need 10 minutes first and then after that I would limit e conversation to 15 minutes.

Once we chatted she said she wanted to tell me the truth. First, though, she wanted me to promise her i wouldn't tell her boss. I said no. She said she would not come clean then and I said i was ok with that and I'd be happy to be on my way for evening. Without the agreement she decided to tell me shes been carrying on with this guy for six weeks but they've never had sex. The night she "f*cked up" she said they kissed. Since then they've engaged in sexting. She contends they talk about sex but don't act on it. She admitted to three dates. She went onto say that she wants to work on us after a somewhat heartfelt apology. she would give me complete transparency. I said NC was a must and she still remains uncertain how to accomplish that. Vie explains to her that the point of NC isn't just for my concerns but its necessary so she doesn't fall back into the trap of the EA. I think shes genuinely considering quoting her job which is a huge consideratincconsidering its her being. That gets me nervous since that shows me she actually mightt do it to fulfill the NC agreement. To that I tell her to take some time to herself to really think about that. I cotinue to give her outs saying maybe the OM is her soulmate. Maybe shell be happier with that life. I say thnkk about keeping your job and being with him. Maybe that's what you really want. 

She didn't spend much time harpi on sources. Shes beggi me not to file although later this evening shes asked I file for mediation if I go threw with it. I left after the first discussinand when I came home we talked for about another 30minutes o vthe same issues. J went on further to say how damaging this has been on all of our family and im not sure how to turn it around. I gave the guest room and said for her to think about what she wants. 

I was calmcand rational e entire time. I said only truths about anything sage asked me (e.g., calling out her collection of dormat men who'd she confides in about her life struggles). I'M continuing to see the lawyer omorrowo. I've told W anything could happen and things could change but vie made a decision and she needs to do the heavy lifting. She asked me not to see her at work. Overal, she's being submissive and taking the verbal beatings (aka truth) from me but she doesn't have flashes of irrationalities but she tames them rather quickly. 

I'M seeing remorse but, just like I told her, hw many days is it goingt be before she reverts back to her old ways. I told her vie seen it happy in several days and vie seen it happen overnight. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

She is 10 steps ahead of you, if she is talking about exposure to her boss.

Careful, keep a VAR on yourself for a possible false domestic violence charge.


----------



## YPbPr

Side note after reading my posts, shes contending they only talked/testing about sex. Is that really possible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Possible? Yes. Judging from her reaction towards you? No.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Side note after reading my posts, shes contending they only talked/testing about sex. Is that really possible?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is testing you to see how much you really know.

Other spouses try trickle truth as the default, without even thinking about it.

This woman has from the very beginning been working this angle. She is very purposeful and I can't see how to believe her now short of a polygraph.

I personally have always thought polys were rather silly, but if there was ever a case for one, this is it.


----------



## YPbPr

Sorry my mobile device butchered that long post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Polygraph. Love it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

6 week affair in a marriage only a few months long.

I think if she cut herself she might bleed ice water.


----------



## Chaparral

This may be a ploy to save their/POSOM jobs. Not saying it's so but beware. Leave VARs in place and do not compromise any of your sources.

Have you talked to anyone yet about divorce besides her?


----------



## YPbPr

I have some people ive confided in. Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> Polygraph. Love it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep in mind it doesn't have a really high success rate, and there are ways to fake it. Try not to get your hopes high by a few words from your wife. You know what you heard on the VAR.


----------



## turnera

Here's the deal. You just invested in a marriage a few months ago. And she's been cheating almost the entire time you were married. Meaning she STARTED as soon as, if not BEFORE, you got married.

Count your blessings you found out now. Move on and look for a REAL wife.


----------



## Chaparral

""They were about to hang up but then he must have got flirtatious with her. What did you say W said. She continues... "No. You'll hear from me. I promise. Yes. I have... ...they don't care.... ...Worthless and chump have come up... ...do you want me to call you worthless in bed?... ...Mr. Chip Chipperton, lol... ...I'll have to try not to laugh but I'll try."""

She sure sounds like they have been in bed. She may still be fishing to see what you know. If they know exactly what you know she may be able to figure out where you are getting info.


----------



## Chaparral

You may be able to get an annulment if it comes to that.


----------



## iheartlife

keko said:


> Keep in mind it doesn't have a really high success rate, and there are ways to fake it. Try not to get your hopes high by a few words from your wife. You know what you heard on the VAR.


Yes, I can only assume you know as well as any of us that polygraphs aren't accepted in a court of law for good reason. They primarily work as a sort of bluff, to get a confession at the last minute.

Ugh, another word of CAUTION just popped into my mind--does anyone remember that poor woman whose husband "passed" the poly and he ran around with the results forever afterward and she was left knowing he was lying but he'd "proven" himself "innocent" so he had her over a barrel. Ugh.


----------



## Shaggy

I think you need to move to a new thread in private members section. I think she may have found this one and read it.

Notice she still isn't trying to save the marriage, she bargaining to save her and the OM's jobs.

She continues to ply you with lies, as you know it's gone PA. After a couple months of marriage? She might just have been hooking up with him before you got married!

Nuke'm Monday brother!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

What happened to your plan ?

From when you first wrote your plan you then diluted it , your wife comes home and bleats and you still talking about MC.

Your losing your marriage , stop wavering and get this done . Your wife's spewing garbage to manipulate you back into your box where she screws around and you pretend she is not.

2X4 coming your way. Get off your cloud of fear and expose this darn affair , far and wide, work & friends . Take the OM out , take your SIL out and stop waffling, you missed a days opportunity. You have no marriage , get that into your head . To have a remote chance of saving your marriage you need to take hard action yourself , suck it in and take it head on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OldWolf57

what kind of man stays with a woman that has been cheating for as long as she has been married ??? what happened to the guy with one foot out the door ??? My codes back on page 20 was my xw had sex with someone and developed feeling, she came an confessed, looking for me to be reasonable about her lapse. I was reasonable. I just will not accept some things IN MY LIFE, and a cheating wife is one of them. Did I love her ?? YES !!! But, it's hard to not look yourself in the eye when you are shaving. That's what I would have tried to do for the rest of my life if I had stayed with her. SOUTH POLE IS THE COLDEST PLACE ON EARTH. I don't know if its a blessing or a curse, but in extreme times I go numb an all emotions are gone. self preservation is the only goal.
Y, you may love this woman dearly, but it is still too damn early in this marriage for this to be happening. Go back to page 20 and read how you answered me and others, Then see if this is the same guy.


----------



## YPbPr

chapparal said:


> Leave VARs in place and do not compromise any of your sources.


You think it's a good idea to start this up again?



Shaggy said:


> I think you need to move to a new thread in private members section. I think she may have found this one and read it.
> 
> Notice she still isn't trying to save the marriage, she bargaining to save her and the OM's jobs.
> 
> She continues to ply you with lies, as you know it's gone PA. After a couple months of marriage? She might just have been hooking up with him before you got married!


Is it possible to move this thread there or delete this thread?

Also, she IS trying to save the marriage. She's started following what others define as the steps of reconciliation. She continued this morning to show remorse, stating her wrongs, and she's willing to do whatever it takes. She keeps telling me that it never went PA (I still think it's trickle truth). She appears to be willing to quit her job to execute a complete NC. I mentioned the poly this morning and she said she'd do it. She insisting that they only shared a kiss and a few dates. I know how horrible that is in the beginning of a marriage but EA's are different that PA's. Do you think she'd go through with a poly and lifetime of me just to protect her job and herself? I keep asking her to go think about what she wants in life considering she was so unhappy in it for that last month and a half why would she want to fight to save it? I'm such a monster right?

A couple things that stood out to me though was that she said she didn't commit adultery and she would contest/sue any allegations of it. I also asked if they talked about sex on the phone and she said no. Lie.



Eli-Zor said:


> What happened to your plan ?
> 
> From when you first wrote your plan you then diluted it , your wife comes home and bleats and you still talking about MC.


I don't believe I ever mentioned MC when W came home. Yes. I diluted my original plan because I'm going to let the legal process assist me. I want to speak to a lawyer first. 




Eli-Zor said:


> Your lossing your marriage , stop wavering and get this done . Your wife's spewing garbage to manipulate you back into your box where she screws around and you pretend she is not.
> 
> 2X4 coming your way. Get off your cloud of fear and expose this darn affair , far and wide, work & friends . Take the OM out , take your SIL out and stop waffling, you missed a days opportunity. You have no marriage , get that into your head . To have a remote chance of saving your marriage you need to take hard action yourself , suck it in and take it head on.


I hear what you're saying but to confirm you're saying in order to truly save my marriage I need to destroy everyone first and then work on it? 



OldWolf57 said:


> what kind of man stays with a woman that has been cheating for as long as she has been married ??? what happened to the guy with one foot out the door ???


True. But what if the PA never happened. I've said from the beginning that a little EA could be worked through with the R script so I'm being true to that. Or, are you just saying, "Come one man. She treated you like sh*t two months in to the marriage. Not worth it"



OldWolf57 said:


> My codes back on page 20 was my xw had sex with someone and developed feeling, she came an confessed, looking for me to be reasonable about her lapse. I was reasonable. I just will not accept some things IN MY LIFE, and a cheating wife is one of them. Did I love her ?? YES !!! But, it's hard to not look yourself in the eye when you are shaving. That's what I would have tried to do for the rest of my life if I had stayed with her. SOUTH POLE IS THE COLDEST PLACE ON EARTH. I don't know if its a blessing or a curse, but in extreme times I go numb an all emotions are gone. self preservation is the only goal.
> Y, you may love this woman dearly, but it is still too damn early in this marriage for this to be happening. Go back to page 20 and read how you answered me and others, Then see if this is the same guy.


I went back an re-read and now I get your MO. You got cheated on and there was no chance of R for you. You were done. You couldn't look yourself in the mirror and call yourself a man after that and I don't blame you. I'm not sure you and I have the same thing going on here. 

I've heard a conversation about what they might say in bed. I know she's had a giant EA with OM. She confessed to a dinner, some drinks, and a kiss. I also have a W who's willing to do whatever it take to prove that a PA never occurred (poly) and that it was an inappropriate relationship that she feels awful about. I have a W showing remorse. I have a W who's almost willing to leave her incredibly high-paying job to execute NC. I'm not taking any of that lightly.


----------



## iheartlife

It's not about EA, PA, EA/PA, straight up PA. It's just not.

It's about the lying.

If she gets away with keeping anything back (knowingly, not something she forgot), on purpose, this is keeping a part of herself private and hidden from you.

As I said a few posts back (in a different way); she needs to understand that marriage is about two people mentally, emotionally, spiritually NAKED to each other. If you have problems, you brings them to EACH OTHER.

I see her lying as a serious issue, but I still see her other extremely serious betrayal of the marriage is discussing you and the marriage with everyone. Most cheaters reserve this for the AP. She's brought a whole host of other people into your marriage. Is she willing to kick out all those other impermissible confidantes, too? Don't fool yourself that they aren't just as damaging. Her betrayal is spread out further and deeper than the AP. Please see this.


----------



## jh52

YPbPr said:


> You think it's a good idea to start this up again?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible to move this thread there or delete this thread?
> 
> Also, she IS trying to save the marriage. She's started following what others define as the steps of reconciliation. She continued this morning to show remorse, stating her wrongs, and she's willing to do whatever it takes. She keeps telling me that it never went PA (I still think it's trickle truth). She appears to be willing to quit her job to execute a complete NC. I mentioned the poly this morning and she said she'd do it. She insisting that they only shared a kiss and a few dates. I know how horrible that is in the beginning of a marriage but EA's are different that PA's. Do you think she'd go through with a poly and lifetime of me just to protect her job and herself? I keep asking her to go think about what she wants in life considering she was so unhappy in it for that last month and a half why would she want to fight to save it? I'm such a monster right?
> 
> A couple things that stood out to me though was that she said she didn't commit adultery and she would contest/sue any allegations of it. I also asked if they talked about sex on the phone and she said no. Lie.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe I ever mentioned MC when W came home. Yes. I diluted my original plan because I'm going to let the legal process assist me. I want to speak to a lawyer first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear what you're saying but to confirm you're saying in order to truly save my marriage I need to destroy everyone first and then work on it?
> 
> 
> 
> True. But what if the PA never happened. I've said from the beginning that a little EA could be worked through with the R script so I'm being true to that. Or, are you just saying, "Come one man. She treated you like sh*t two months in to the marriage. Not worth it"
> 
> 
> 
> I went back an re-read and now I get your MO. You got cheated on and there was no chance of R for you. You were done. You couldn't look yourself in the mirror and call yourself a man after that and I don't blame you. I'm not sure you and I have the same thing going on here.
> 
> I've heard a conversation about what they might say in bed. I know she's had a giant EA with OM. She confessed to a dinner, some drinks, and a kiss. I also have a W who's willing to do whatever it take to prove that a PA never occurred (poly) and that it was an inappropriate relationship that she feels awful about. I have a W showing remorse. I have a W who's almost willing to leave her incredibly high-paying job to execute NC. I'm not taking any of that lightly.


You forgot this part - You have a wife who has been in an affair with OM for almost as long as you are married.


----------



## happyman64

Y,

Call her bluff. Schedule the poly and take her there without saying where you are going until you are in the parking lot.

Do the poly.....

See if she passes or fails. Then take the appropriate action if you want to R or not.

You maintain control of your situation.

You already know she is lying from the VAR content.

Do the poly to see how bad she is lying and then you will know what you are dealing with.

HM64


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> It's not about EA, PA, EA/PA, straight up PA. It's just not.
> 
> It's about the lying.
> 
> If she gets away with keeping anything back (knowingly, not something she forgot), on purpose, this is keeping a part of herself private and hidden from you.
> 
> As I said a few posts back (in a different way); she needs to understand that marriage is about two people mentally, emotionally, spiritually NAKED to each other. If you have problems, you brings them to EACH OTHER.
> 
> I see her lying as a serious issue, but I still see her other extremely serious betrayal of the marriage is discussing you and the marriage with everyone. Most cheaters reserve this for the AP. She's brought a whole host of other people into your marriage. Is she willing to kick out all those other impermissible confidantes, too? Don't fool yourself that they aren't just as damaging. Her betrayal is spread out further and deeper than the AP. Please see this.


I see your point re: lying. Let me asking you this thought about her sharing herself and her confusion with others. She's been sharing with her gf's that she's on the ledge with her marriage and sometimes she says she's off the ledge. She's shared OM with a few people saying she's interested in him but she's also said she's put him on the shelf to work on her marriage. But, as we all know, he pops back up from time to time. And what about me? I've confided with other about my woes as well.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> I see your point re: lying. Let me asking you this thought about her sharing herself and her confusion with others. She's been sharing with her gf's that she's on the ledge with her marriage and sometimes she says she's off the ledge. She's shared OM with a few people saying she's interested in him but she's also said she's put him on the shelf to work on her marriage. But, as we all know, he pops back up from time to time. And what about me? I've confided with other about my woes as well.


If you can honestly say that you both pulled away from each other at the same time, and started confiding in others about the marital problems as a result, then yes, this is what happens when the relationship breaks down. But you've said yourself she has two other men who she discusses the relationship with. And from your descriptions, it isn't that they have such excellent advice to give--they primarily give her validation. And that is likely because they are men who want her as more than a friend (not right this minute, but this is what they get out of the 'friendship').

You are pretty far away from this right now, but when you're talking reconciliation, she needs to go back to marriage 101, which includes understanding and defining marital boundaries. 

The danger of discussing marital problems with men is that this is the foundation of an EA. She needs to see they are off limits entirely for these conversations. 100%.

You grow apart in marriage when you discuss your issues, problems, and needs with people to whom you aren't married. That isn't to say you'll never have a problem (like your wife having an affair) where you'll need outside guidance. But she had problems with the marriage--and her first, default, and so far exclusive way of "handling" these problems has been to consult a long list of people who aren't you. 

If you're not going to R, this is irrelevant. But if you R, I'm just pointing out how very big an issue this is. 


I sense I'm distracting you.

Just go torpedo the OM and the affair and then you can focus on this stuff.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you asked her how she could become invloved with another man before the ink was dry on her marriage license?

By the way, you need to be blunt and tell her you know she talked about sex on the phone. She nneds to think you know more than you do.

Here are the wayward spouse instructions, they may help.

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


----------



## Eli-Zor

Just because your wife appears to have had an ephinany does not mean she has, read your own words. Everything you write is how to not expose the OM and break the affair permanently. Why ? Are your so blinkered that you are willing to accept her lies. You heard her words where she says to the OM what she thinks you know about her affair. Your little rant through her off course for a while, she has regrouped and come up with a new plan.

It is obvious you do not understand the extent a wayward is prepared to go to protect her affair. No where have I read you asking her to write a NC letter or other actions that force her to admit her affair . 

Your afraid of losing something you don't have , your wife knows you better than we do and I have no doubt she pushes all your "be scared buttons" . Do not waver on your plan , expose at the work place , his family and friends. Your wife has to leave the job , there is no option on this, she is far to secure and thinks, perhaps knows, you are a rug sweeper.

Harsh words, maybe , how else are you going to stand up for yourself .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Your wife is a seasoned adulteress , any words said and remorse is pretence and bluster . You want to to save your marriage? Start by letting her see the consequences and showing zero tolerance to her lies.

You said you would polygraph her ,carry this out . Do not keep this as an idle threat to be mentioned in conversation. Waywards dilute the truth, most often kissing translates to sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Let's review:

Even now she's still lying about what she did with him. You know they've talked sex etc. You've heard it.

What exactly changed over the weekend for her? She reassured the OM not to worry, and talked about being bed with him. She went to the SIL, who is a known cheater herself, and then came back wanting to work on the marriage??

I can't help but wonder if the SIL didn't teach her how to take it underground (burner phone etc), and how to come home to you - and try a new game of contrition in order to throw you off the scent. This may include offering you sex, MC, and oh the favorite a suggestion to go on a nice trip to reconnect.

but ask yourself what really changed in her that she went from reassuring the OM, while the same time telling you to back down and reveal how much you know?

Given her actions so far, this smacks of falseness.

----

Schedule the POLY today for the next appointment they have.

Then tell her you've got it setup, and she has until then to come fully clean about everything. Then have her take it. 

Have her write a no-contract letter to the OM, sign and give it to you, along with his address.

Then on speaker phone, have her call the OM and have her read it to him.

That leaves the problem that she's still the account rep to him, and she's still able to go to him and do what she's been doing all along. So, other than her once again claiming to be faithful as she has said in her vows, you have no way of knowing. So take her up on the offer to leave the job. If she is good at what she does she will find another job at another place.

Have her write a letter of resignation for work, sign it and give it to you. She's got 30 days to find a new job, or just quit the current one. She also must immediately give up the account at the OM company. Have another person take it over.

If you find she is contacting the OM in anyway: professional or personal - the marriage is over.

----

If you go this route DO NOT REMOVE THE VAR. 

You also need to listen to the var from this weekend very badly to know what she talked to him about on the drive up there. 

Pity you don't have a gps tracker on the car to know for sure she went to SIL.

Meanwhile see that lawyer.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> She appears to be willing to quit her job to execute a complete NC.
> 
> I mentioned the poly this morning and she said she'd do it.
> 
> She insisting that they only shared a kiss and a few dates.
> 
> I know how horrible that is in the beginning of a marriage but EA's are different that PA's.
> 
> Do you think she'd go through with a poly and lifetime of me just to protect her job and herself?
> 
> she said she didn't commit adultery and she would contest/sue any allegations of it.


Which is it? She'll quit the job and take a poly to keep you, or she will take a poly to get to keep her job? She's just scrambling to negotiate the best deal she can get out the dumb schlub she married (her image). AND she will SUE you? Come on, YPb, I know you're not this dumb.



YPbPr said:


> I hear what you're saying but to confirm you're saying in order to truly save my marriage I need to destroy everyone first and then work on it?


Destroy who, exactly? The woman who's been cheating on you the whole time you've been married? The man who was schtupping a married woman? Who exactly are you talking about? Are there some innocent victims here?



YPbPr said:


> True. But what if the PA never happened. I've said from the beginning that a little EA could be worked through with the R script so I'm being true to that. Or, are you just saying, "Come one man. She treated you like sh*t two months in to the marriage. Not worth it"


So...if your WIFE has spent the last few months pretending to schtup another man while married to you, jokes about you to him, talks about what they'll do in bed...THAT is not as bad as really doing the deed?



YPbPr said:


> I went back an re-read and now I get your MO. You got cheated on and there was no chance of R for you. You were done. You couldn't look yourself in the mirror and call yourself a man after that and I don't blame you. I'm not sure you and I have the same thing going on here.


YPb, I have NEVER been cheated on (that I know of). And I, TOO, have the same stance. Why? Because you are acting like the world's biggest doormat, with honey poured on top of it to attract the woman who stomps on you. Do you not think you deserve an actual wife, one who wants ONLY her husband? Good grief.



YPbPr said:


> I've heard a conversation about what they might say in bed. I know she's had a giant EA with OM. She confessed to a dinner, some drinks, and a kiss. I also have a W who's willing to do whatever it take to prove that a PA never occurred (poly) and that it was an inappropriate relationship that she feels awful about. I have a W showing remorse. I have a W who's almost willing to leave her incredibly high-paying job to execute NC. I'm not taking any of that lightly.


 Let me know when she DOES quit that job, and then I'll consider siding with you. Right now, all she's doing is scrambling for whatever way she can figure out to get you off her back, to see which one you're going to bite for, so that she can go back to being the selfish Taker that she is. Once you agree, she'll play along for a few months til you stop checking up on her, and then she'll go look for the NEXT OM.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Shaggy said:


> Let's review:
> 
> Even now she's still lying about what she did with him. You know they've talked sex etc. You've heard it.
> 
> What exactly changed over the weekend for her? She reassured the OM not to worry, and talked about being bed with him. She went to the SIL, who is a known cheater herself, and then came back wanting to work on the marriage??
> 
> I can't help but wonder if the SIL didn't teach her how to take it underground (burner phone etc), and how to come home to you - and try a new game of contrition in order to throw you off the scent. This may include offering you sex, MC, and oh the favorite a suggestion to go on a nice trip to reconnect.
> 
> but ask yourself what really changed in her that she went from reassuring the OM, while the same time telling you to back down and reveal how much you know?
> 
> Given her actions so far, this smacks of falseness.
> 
> ----
> 
> Schedule the POLY today for the next appointment they have.
> 
> Then tell her you've got it setup, and she has until then to come fully clean about everything. Then have her take it.
> 
> Have her write a no-contract letter to the OM, sign and give it to you, along with his address.
> 
> Then on speaker phone, have her call the OM and have her read it to him.
> 
> That leaves the problem that she's still the account rep to him, and she's still able to go to him and do what she's been doing all along. So, other than her once again claiming to be faithful as she has said in her vows, you have no way of knowing. So take her up on the offer to leave the job. If she is good at what she does she will find another job at another place.
> 
> Have her write a letter of resignation for work, sign it and give it to you. She's got 30 days to find a new job, or just quit the current one. She also must immediately give up the account at the OM company. Have another person take it over.
> 
> If you find she is contacting the OM in anyway: professional or personal - the marriage is over.
> 
> ----
> 
> If you go this route DO NOT REMOVE THE VAR.
> 
> You also need to listen to the var from this weekend very badly to know what she talked to him about on the drive up there.
> 
> Pity you don't have a gps tracker on the car to know for sure she went to SIL.
> 
> Meanwhile see that lawyer.


Thanks Shaggy, well put. Mobiles can be a hinderence when tying to write a decent response .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

happyman64 said:


> Y,
> 
> Call her bluff. Schedule the poly and take her there without saying where you are going until you are in the parking lot.
> 
> Do the poly.....
> 
> See if she passes or fails. Then take the appropriate action if you want to R or not.


This is the only way I would consider advising you to keep her.

Schedule it. TODAY.


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> She's been sharing with her gf's that she's on the ledge with her marriage


Her marriage of MONTHS!


----------



## Shaggy

As for destroying everyone - That isn't the purpose of exposure. Exposure is about bringing the truth to the light of day, so everyone is on the same page.

Your wife and this OM have been using their job positions to have an affair. Certainly an EA BUT they HAVE dated and kissed. You've heard them talk comfortably and easily about talking in bed. So it's obviously gone PA. 

How many people in you life have you been in a position to talk about being in bed together, when you've only had a couple of dates and a kiss? Do you actually think your wife would let a man talk to her about that if she hadn't already been in his bed?

Exposure is just telling the truth to people who have a right to know. 

Cheaters see it as an attack because it does attack the affair, but it's not an attack. It's telling the truth.


----------



## aug

Your wife is a salesperson. That's her job, that's what she does. Apparently she's very good at it since she gets to handle a very important account and gets paid really well.

A good salesperson should know how to read people, knows their weaknesses, and can deal with them effectively.

That's what she's doing with you right now.

She's good at it and she has you questioning yourself.

You are married only a few months -- an annulment might be the better route?


----------



## Eli-Zor

" she said she didn't commit adultery and she would contest/sue any allegations of it"

Really; another reson to expose , have him fired from his job, she has a choice of leaving before she gets removed. Her words imply that she is confident and does not appear to have a grasp of how much you know. As an account manager she is placing to company at risk . There is zero negotiation with her , do not threaten her with exposure , give her a day to write and submit a letter of resignation . In the interim expose the OM to his HR team.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

if you truly want a good test to see if she is willing to do the real work of heavy lifting and remorse then expose her and the OM

if she is more protective of her OM than you then you have your answer


----------



## TBT

Shaggy said:


> As for destroying everyone - That isn't the purpose of exposure. Exposure is about bringing the truth to the light of day, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> Your wife and this OM have been using their job positions to have an affair. Certainly an EA BUT they HAVE dated and kissed. You've heard them talk comfortably and easily about talking in bed. So it's obviously gone PA.
> 
> How many people in you life have you been in a position to talk about being in bed together, when you've only had a couple of dates and a kiss? Do you actually think your wife would let a man talk to her about that if she hadn't already been in his bed?
> 
> Exposure is just telling the truth to people who have a right to know.
> 
> Cheaters see it as an attack because it does attack the affair, but it's not an attack. It's telling the truth.


:iagree:

Can't see the wife risking her marriage this early in for just a couple of dates and a kiss.Her thinking is probably more along the lines of "in for a penny,in for a pound"


----------



## iheartlife

Shaggy said:


> As for destroying everyone - That isn't the purpose of exposure. Exposure is about bringing the truth to the light of day, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> Your wife and this OM have been using their job positions to have an affair. Certainly an EA BUT they HAVE dated and kissed. You've heard them talk comfortably and easily about talking in bed. So it's obviously gone PA.
> 
> How many people in you life have you been in a position to talk about being in bed together, when you've only had a couple of dates and a kiss? Do you actually think your wife would let a man talk to her about that if she hadn't already been in his bed?
> 
> Exposure is just telling the truth to people who have a right to know.
> 
> Cheaters see it as an attack because it does attack the affair, but it's not an attack. It's telling the truth.


I've read hundreds of emails from my husband to his AP. Most of these were in a private account that only they knew the password to. They never once mentioned sex. Not even once. I discovered the account by accident--every email I've read of his I found, he did not show them to me or ever expect me to read them. So, I have a logical basis for believing they had an EA. But even I know that it could have been a PA. That's why I don't tend to call my husband's affair an EA any more. I do use it that way to explain that he called her his soulmate, and she wasn't a F*** buddy. But I'm resigned to the fact that they could have F'd.

Please don't cling to this distinction. I just don't see why it matters. I think you are setting it up as some sort of litmus test on whether or not you should keep her.

If you're going to D, again, it's because of the deep and extensive betrayals to the marriage by never once trying to turn to you when things went south. Turning to everyone else and leaving you in the dark like a fool. Lying and lying and lying. And still more lying, this is her favorite thing to do, apparently. The more that events unfold, the more she shows herself to be a very damaged person.

Long ago, like weeks ago now, we discussed in this thread the fact that her job had to go. Now we see her negotiating for her job. I can see her thinking, she offers it up to you first so you'll take it off the table. She does that as a sign of good will because she thinks you'll never take her up on it. Or, she has a solution to how to stay in touch with the OM even if she quits. Maybe quitting makes it easier.

I'm not trying to confuse you. But she is a master at playing this game. At some point, will she ever show the real her to you? If this early in the marriage she is playing with shadows and puppets, do you even know her at all? How long did you date before you married?


----------



## Shaggy

And just to be clear:

Infidelity means being unfaithful.

Meeting another man secretly behind your back - going on dates - and kissing.

IS INFIDELITY and if you did these things, she would be gone already.

So don't let her play contrite and I want "Us to work" and "there's been no infidelity", because there has been.

Look, I don't want you to D, but I also don't want you in false R.


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

From:

"FWIW, once PA was confirmed I felt I didn't need to monitor anymore. I've heard all your advice re: exposure/lawyer. I'm sitting tight for now and the idea is to find a laywer who's interested in exposure. If they're not, I'll deal with it myself.

If I could buy you all a drink I would."

to 

"Also, she IS trying to save the marriage."

in less than 24 hours based on what? A few words from a lying, cheating spouse. Even her "confession" is riddled with lies that you know about. How can you believe a word she says? 

Shaggy really summed up the crux of it:
"How many people in you life have you been in a position to talk about being in bed together, when you've only had a couple of dates and a kiss? Do you actually think your wife would let a man talk to her about that if she hadn't already been in his bed?"

she's still lying to you and you know this, and a few words out of her lying mouth have shaken your resolve and have you off-balance. 

Don't forget your rock solid plan from several days back:

-Backup var to digital files and save in duplicate in different places
-Text wife back later today and say ""*I'm sorry, I don't know how to handle you like XXXX. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing you, and you can be free to call him worthless in bed all he wants. I won't care because I'll be free of a cheating wife like you. *I will not continue this conversation any longer. If you want to come home, I'll put your stuff on the lawn for you so you can take it and leave."
-Call OM and ask him what he didn't understand about NC
-Call W's father and say, ""Sorry, I don't know how to handle W's relationship with OM'S NAME. But I do know I won't live in an open marriage. So I'm divorcing W. I loved her. I love you but I won't tolerate W's confirmed affair. I'm so sorry this happened to our family."
-Tomorrow, expose OM to employer
-Tomorrow, expose W to employer
-Tomorrow, expose SIL's H to his W's OM (I feel like doing this to him at work would be better than dropping the bomb now while he's at home with my W and his W)


----------



## PHTlump

YPbPr,

I'll try to distill the advice given here into a post respectful of your feelings.

Many here consider all betrayals of the marriage to be equally awful. They don't parse whether a PA is worse than an EA. Or whether kissing is worse than a BJ. Others do. It's up to you how you view your wife's betrayal.

However, I will state that disloyal spouses always try to justify their actions. That's why she insists that she wasn't unfaithful. It's the Clinton, "oral sex isn't sex," defense. So you can't really take her word for it.

Also, another poster wrote something on trickle truth that stuck with me. If she says they talked, they talked about sex. If she says they went for coffee, they went on a date. If she says they kissed, she gave him a BJ. If she says they cuddled, they had sex. Just keep that in mind when your wife is insisting that she "only" did this or that with OM.

Also, I think your wife may well be sincere in her desire for reconciliation. Your blowup at her was your first decisive move. Before that, you asked her, hinted, investigated. She thought she had you snowed and you didn't feel secure enough to pull the trigger. That changed this weekend and she believed that you were finished.

Does that mean she won't cheat again? Who knows? The fact that your wife was cheating, or trying to cheat (remember she was trying to schedule sex with OM and just couldn't work out the logistics) a few months into your marriage speaks ill of your wife.

Not that affairs are ever justified. But, if you were having money troubles, kid troubles, sex was stale, and you drifted apart over a marriage of 20 years, an affair would be more understandable. But you're in the honeymoon period. Odds are, your wife will never have a more favorable opinion of you than she does right now. And her opinion of you is so low that she was trying to have sex with another man.

So, I'll say that it's your decision. Do the poly. Maybe she's seen the error of her ways and will be a perfect wife from now on. Maybe not. I hope it works out for the best.

Good luck.


----------



## bandit.45

Why on earth you would even consider continuing on in a relationship with this dysfunctional woman? 

It just boggles my mind that reconcilliation would even be an option. Get an annulment, and later, a few years down the road, if she straightens up or finds Jesus, maybe the two of you can get remarried. 

Do not waste your life hanging on to a liar and cheat.


----------



## Eli-Zor

The issue here is not one where we disrespect YPbPr , its that we can see what is happening. The sound advice given that allows the affair to be terminally damaged is diluted . Once the affair is done with then YPbPr can look at his options of D or marriage . At the moment he is being manage by a woman who has no boundaries, no respect and no remorse for what she is doing. That dynamic can change if the advice , which is not made up by ourselves & is sourced from professionals who deal successfully with affairs, is followed .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I'm concerned your falling back into what got you here in the first place.............Nice Guy Syndrome, the respect killer.


----------



## PHTlump

Eli-Zor said:


> The issue here is not one where we disrespect YPbPr , its that we can see what is happening. The sound advice given that allows the affair to be terminally damaged is diluted . Once the affair is done with then YPbPr can look at his options of D or marriage . At the moment he is being manage by a woman who has no boundaries, no respect and no remorse for what she is doing. That dynamic can change if the advice , which is not made up by ourselves & is sourced from professionals who deal successfully with affairs, is followed .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The advice on this board, while generally quite good, is not perfect, nor infallible. I agree with the advice to set boundaries and enforce them. Sometimes that will actually end an affair.

So, it appears that YPbPr finally had enough and informed his wife that he wanted out of the marriage. That's the biggest boundary enforcement of all. At that point, his wife finally showed the remorse that he had been longing to see. She offered complete transparency. She also offered to quit her job to ensure NC.

While that seems to me to be the ultimate goal, many posters on this thread have essentially said that it's not good enough. I don't know what, if anything, would be good enough for these posters. But it seems to me that they are trying to take YPbPr's desires out of the equation. And that's disrespectful.


----------



## Almostrecovered

PHTlump said:


> While that seems to me to be the ultimate goal, many posters on this thread have essentially said that it's not good enough. I don't know what, if anything, would be good enough for these posters. But it seems to me that they are trying to take YPbPr's desires out of the equation. And that's disrespectful.



I think most posters are doubting the sincerity of YPbPr's wife, not the fact that YPbPr wants R


----------



## iheartlife

PHTlump said:


> While that seems to me to be the ultimate goal, many posters on this thread have essentially said that it's not good enough. I don't know what, if anything, would be good enough for these posters. But it seems to me that they are trying to take YPbPr's desires out of the equation. And that's disrespectful.


Unlike other affair partners, his wife has for weeks now been aware that he is learning more and more about the affair. She has spent this time trying to assess and determine how much he knows. She has made this perfectly clear to him, it isn't as if she could be misinterpreted.

After she was confronted about the affair with the OM, and after the OM was confronted as well, they contacted one another via cell phone. In that conversation, she joked about the OM's prowess in bed. Maybe she was just joking. But this behavior after confrontation is pretty sick.

Now she is saying she's sorry but there was no physical contact. But there are quite a few reasons to believe she's lying. In many of these threads, people say the WS is lying about the extent of the affair based on nothing more than the fact that cheaters lie. Here, there is reason to believe there is more.

She also has a sister who has cheated on her husband and those affair(s) are unknown to that man. She often visits her and the sister knows about the affair. There is every reason to believe this sister is supporting the affair and giving advice on how to handle it. Since she is terrified her own husband will learn the truth about their marriage, there is every reason to believe that she is advising the OP's wife to keep the full truth hidden as much as possible.

I agree that offering to quit her job is a huge step and one that she will frankly need to take anyway unless the OM quits his first. However, I also believe based on the WS's profession that she has excellent sales / negotiating skills. Maybe she's sincere--but this is one offer that I will only believe when I see it executed. It almost surely has to be done anyway, so let's see what happens.

Feel free to disagree with what I've said and point out why you think a different tack is needed for the OP.


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

The facts are that his wife of THREE months admitted to kissing and sexting another man and was caught on VAR discussing calling the other man "worthless in bed". When confronted with these facts, her willingness to "come clean" was in her own words conditional on him agreeing not to tell her boss. When he refused, she flat out told him she wouldn't come clean then. 





YPbPr said:


> Once we chatted she said she wanted to tell me the truth. First, though, she wanted me to promise her i wouldn't tell her boss. I said no. *She said she would not come clean then* and I said i was ok with that and I'd be happy to be on my way for evening. *Without the agreement she decided to tell me *shes been carrying on with this guy for six weeks but they've never had sex.


----------



## YPbPr

Thank all for the continued support whether you see it one way, my way, or another way. I'm listening to everything and I appreciate it. Yes... I believe that deep down in me I've always been working toward R even if others see D as the "right" choice. And, to those here who think D is the best plan let me tell you this... My closest confidants agree with you. Most believe that the trust has been broken and I, myself, could never come back from this so it's best to get it out. Or, W's issues need to be worked out on her own — without me — to truly solve them. But, if you read this thread closely (and pay attention to my posts) I've been trying to stop an EA from going PA. Of course, none of know whether or not that PA occurred but I took the leap of faith that it didn't and did whatever I could to protect the marriage so W and I might R. I said from the beginning that I could recover from an EA. Easily. So now that I'm being honest with you let me give you all an update...

Before W mentioned left for work yesterday, I said I felt she only offering up the bare minimum of facts that would just be enough to win me over. I suggested the poly and she immediately said she'd do it if that is what it takes. I kept asking her if she had any more info to tell me about the relationship (looking to hear about non-sexting activities but she didn't offer any so I triggered and told her to leave for work). She went to knowing I'd be meeting with the lawyer and starting the D process. She called once during the day for an update and I asked she come home at the end of the day to get it.

W came home to a calm discussion. She asked I started the legal process and I said yes. I explained how the process works and how many days (at a minimum) it would take. She reminded me she would take the poly. I asked her if working on us, doing the poly, and engaging in post-affair R acts is something she really wants to do. Again, I gave her the out that perhaps we're not meant to be.

W said she wants to take poly. She also offered to me that she shared the idea with her family and attorney. They thought it was extreme but advised her to do it. I explained to her the poly process/cost and that she would need to prepared to go at a moments notice so she said she's give me dates that would not work for her so I could work around those. She apologized profusely and cried and showed genuine remorse. She continued to tell me that their meeting to meet up failed, that she never slept with OM, that, yes, she engaged in distasteful sexual conversation/texting with OM and she regrets all of it. She was honest in sharing with me her concerns over the my problems in the 50% of the marriage that I'm responsible for. I have done those things and I'll accept them. She took full responsibility that the affair was 100% her fault.

Next, we talked about NC and she offered to quit her job. I said that would be something that shows me she's willing to R but we touched on some gray areas here. First, looking long-term for us post a possible R and onto the road to happiness, her current job could be the cash cow and that makes us extremely wealthy and financially secure. Is that happiness? Probably not but if I'm going to take a practical look at things I'm going to consider the loss of it in our lives. I'm also looking at the fact that our relationship could be so much better without it. She's addicted to work so making a big change like this could be beneficial overall and fix issues beyond the affair. 

So what we're looking at is 1) she quits the job to engage in NC or 2) the "gray area" idea (as I call it). one suggestion was to put a new account manager on the client so W would not have to work directly with OM. Because W is so high up at work it's necessary for her to be on group e-mails with the client (OM would be CC'd as well). She also told me she will continue to get group meeting invites where the OM is included also. The idea of the new account manager would put a layer in between her and the client and the OM. New manager would work directly with client and then feed work-related e-mails to W asking for decisions etc and then new manager would feed info back to client (and I guess OM if he's involved). W also agreed to have a sitdown with new client manager (including me at that sitdown) to discuss the affair and explain why we're doing this and what the new manager's position would be in this. Another idea I suggested was outing OM at work and having him fired. I honestly told her how sinister that would be and that it's a pipe dream put I was putting it on the table. She didn't agree. She did tell me though (and my reports prove this to be true) that OM is looking for another job. Not sure how long that will take but that might help NC as well.

After, I asked we listen to Lee Baucom's Recovering from the Affair. She listened intently and cried a lot but she made it all the way through and agreed with Lee's sentiments. I think it was great for her to hear, from a third part, about how affairs happen, how fogs are created, and why NC and transparency must occur for R. Listening to me tell her that has so far been ineffective but the audio seemed to sink in with her. I asked we read his ebook together and I'm considering taking her to see him.

Next we talked about the NC letter. I gave her a sample NC letter and a pen and paper she agreed to write it. I gave her time/space to write the NC letter and when I came back it was fairly good. She asked how I wanted to execute it and I asked we call OM on speak phone and get it done. Now. She seemed scared and hesitant to do that. She then pointed out the work issue and, like the letter included via a placeholder, she said she wanted to have only one communication with OM that was all-inclusive of the NC agreement and how things would proceed at work. Since the work issue is not confirmed I agreed we could sit tight on it for a bit. 

After that, W supplied me with all her online account info. This morning I've checked in and work e-mails have received a massive purge so not much to see there. Spending habits confirm W's trip to sisters and nothing unusual or out of the ordinary there. 

Next we discussed sexual intimacy. I've taken it upon myself to find intimacy questions that help couples contend with intimacy issues. I told her that and I told her how I knew she engaged in that sort of question/answer stuff with her first husband. Intimidatingly, I always thought it was cheesy and never wanted to do it but I was wrong. We talked about our s*xual needs. Then we engaged in s*x that attempted those needs. Although some of it was exciting, some of it was awkward but it ended with her being better satisfied compared our previous sessions and I left it feeling great. 


We took a break from talking about us but later W wanted to know what the heck happened Friday night. What did I learn (and how did I learn it) that set me off so hard. I didn't know what to say to that but she got a quick call at that moment which gave me time to think. I made up a story that said I had access to his phone records and saw that he was continuing to call her. Dumbest story I could come up with? Yes. She bought it though. At first she told me he should know he's been compromised but I told her I would be arrested so she agreed not to. So dumb. I know. Would love to repair this if I could and admit to lying and create another story. Am I being just as bad as her here? 

So what are everyone's thoughts? I'm thinking about letting us breathe on this for a few days. Maybe reinstate the var/gps and watch wife attempt to do heavy lifting. What are people's thought about NC and W's job?


----------



## YPbPr

StrangerThanFiction said:


> The facts are that his wife of THREE months admitted to kissing and sexting another man and was caught on VAR discussing calling the other man "worthless in bed". When confronted with these facts, her willingness to "come clean" was in her own words conditional on him agreeing not to tell her boss. When he refused, she flat out told him she wouldn't come clean then.


That's not what happened. She asked I not tell her boss and I said I wouldn't make any promises. She thought about that for a minute and then decided to come "clean" anyway (I put that in quotes only because none of us know HER truths). That's when she told me about the dates, the sneaking around, the kiss, the sexting, etc.

Another thing I didn't mention in my long post above was I found a list in her bag this morning. First it included a list of the big fights we've had and why we had them. Next it included the four "dates" they had via date. The first date was not detailed with anything. The second date said "kiss" and the last two said "work/drinks." It also included a short paragraph about her actions. Something like, "...started a relationship, started talking about sex and sexting, met with therapist immediately, went to MC..."

After the date list it had a list of what her needs/wants in a relationship are and I can't quite remember the last list but if I had to guess is was a list about me. Can't remember if the list was saying what I might need to improve or what positive I bring to the relationship.


----------



## Almostrecovered

YPbPr said:


> After that, W supplied me with all her online account info. This morning I've checked in and work e-mails have received a massive purge so not much to see there. Spending habits confirm W's trip to sisters and nothing unusual or out of the ordinary there.



even IF your wife is telling you the whole truth about the affair and passes the polygraph, this purge will drive you absolutely bat sh!t crazy with doubt


----------



## keko

Hopefully we're all wrong but this much trouble so early on the marriage isn't helping it for a better future.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Do not falter on your plan , stick firmly to your process and let her show her intent to R by actions as well as words.

Leaving her job is a must, the OM can never have contact with her directly or indirectly. 
Send the NC letter and out the OM to his boss.
Out the sister to her husband with your wife's support.
She apologises to her mother and father for her affair. 
Polygraph is mandatory. 
Plus any other items you feel are required to secure your marriage.

Firm measured steps are required , your uncompromising actions to save your marriage will set the scene for your relationship going forward. Recognising your own failures and committing to work on them is a good sign to your wife so long as she does not try to blame you for her affair .

Your in a better place today , keep on track and be confident in yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I agree with Eli's plan. IF you can figure out how to never run across OM again at work in person, phone, or email, the job would be ok with me. To me, that would mean outing OM to his boss.


----------



## iheartlife

Yes, I don't see how her admission changes the course of action. She is not a wife who grew apart from her husband due to the passage of time and neglect. She must learn from scratch what it means to be married, what faithfulness truly is. Not as a punishment, but as a loving wakeup call to her last chance at happiness with you. 

The dangerous lure of rugsweeping is palpable now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Quick update... OM started work-related email chain today. W stayed out of it completely however OM took HIS work cronies off chain (after a few back and forths) and start getting flirty with W and her female co-worker that were still left on the chain. W has stayed strong offering no response however her co-worker continued to engage a bit. Then he starts calling out my W and making jokes about her with W's co-workers — trying to get her to engage.

Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


Good for her, but a little too late. Amazing your wife could not see him for what he is.

Silly, vain, foolish woman.


----------



## kenmoore14217

YPbPr said:


> Quick update... OM started work-related email chain today. W stayed out of it completely however OM took HIS work cronies off chain (after a few back and forths) and start getting flirty with W and her female co-worker that were still left on the chain. W has stayed strong offering no response however her co-worker continued to engage a bit. Then he starts calling out my W and making jokes about her with W's co-workers — trying to get her to engage.
> 
> Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


The OM needs some persuasion, and not Crystal Blue either!!


----------



## DailyGrind

YPbPr said:


> Quick update... OM started work-related email chain today. W stayed out of it completely however OM took HIS work cronies off chain (after a few back and forths) and start getting flirty with W and her female co-worker that were still left on the chain. W has stayed strong offering no response however her co-worker continued to engage a bit. Then he starts calling out my W and making jokes about her with W's co-workers — trying to get her to engage.
> 
> Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


Did she offer this up (info), or did you find out otherwise?


----------



## Shaggy

See the OM here has no ntention of backing off. He is working the situation. , fishing to pull her in deeper.

This proves there can beno successful middle ground with him and her. He will continue to push.

Get the poly yesterday. And why oh why isnt there a var in he car? You are running blind, and that var is your only source of truth right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

well you have electronic proof of his conduct

expose his ass


----------



## turnera

Print it out, march over to his boss, and put it on his desk. Tell him you want him fired immediately.


----------



## Eli-Zor

turnera said:


> Print it out, march over to his boss, and put it on his desk. Tell him you want him fired immediately.


Agree , and to the Var in the car. There is no room for complacency .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

While you are dealing with the past she's done with him, there remains the future. 

I'm worried that she did want to meet up for sex, and that just last week she continued to reassure him.

So be very much on guard for this being a false R, and call her out immediately if she waffles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> Quick update... OM started work-related email chain today. W stayed out of it completely however OM took HIS work cronies off chain (after a few back and forths) and start getting flirty with W and her female co-worker that were still left on the chain. W has stayed strong offering no response however her co-worker continued to engage a bit. Then he starts calling out my W and making jokes about her with W's co-workers — trying to get her to engage.
> 
> Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


But doesn't your wife know you're checking up on her?


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Props to my W but this dude is a predator.


Please don't let this be the explanation for a muti-week affair in a brand new marriage that should have been in its a honeymoon phase. Why did she think it was ok to respond? A self-confident woman in love with her husband would see this guy for the loser that he is. I suspect she has enough baggage to fill a moving van.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

DailyGrind said:


> Did she offer this up (info), or did you find out otherwise?


I did a random spot check to check the login/password she gave me.


----------



## YPbPr

Shaggy said:


> While you are dealing with the past she's done with him, there remains the future.
> 
> I'm worried that she did want to meet up for sex, and that just last week she continued to reassure him.
> 
> So be very much on guard for this being a false R, and call her out immediately if she waffles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Understood


----------



## YPbPr

keko said:


> But doesn't your wife know you're checking up on her?


Yes.


----------



## YPbPr

iheartlife said:


> Please don't let this be the explanation for a muti-week affair in a brand new marriage that should have been in its a honeymoon phase. Why did she think it was ok to respond? A self-confident woman in love with her husband would see this guy for the loser that he is. I suspect she has enough baggage to fill a moving van.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not letting it be the excuse. W is responsible for her infidelity but I can answer your question as to she thought it was OK to respond in the first place. Because she wasn't in love with her husband. He husband was being too much of a Nice Guy and her husband wasn't setting boundaries, apologized to keep the peace, and got treated like a doormat because he was a doormat. Therefore, W lost respect and went wayward. Is W weak for doing that, yes? Did I set my boundaries though, no. Is this another excuse from me to you saying it was OK for W to do what she did? No. I'm just being realistic/honest.


----------



## keko

YPbPr said:


> Yes.


Not to make you paranoid but for all you know she may be keeping that email within your boundaries and have another email?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Nowhere do I read that you have exposed the OM , is there a problem?

Edited: nor do I read you outing your SIL. It takes but a few moments to copy the template work exposure letter and send it to his company. It takes a minute or so to dial your BIL and inform him of your wife's affair and his wife's affair . 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

YPbPr said:


> Because she wasn't in love with her husband. He husband was being too much of a Nice Guy and her husband wasn't setting boundaries, apologized to keep the peace, and got treated like a doormat because he was a doormat. Therefore, W lost respect and went wayward.


This change of heart all happened withing 6 weeks of you guys getting married? Or am I getting threads mixed up? Married 3 months, she's been stepping out with this guy for 6 weeks?


----------



## turnera

So have you called OM's boss yet? Why not?


----------



## YPbPr

B*tch is crazy! W called to make small talk while driving. Started talking about us. She rescinded most of what she promised last night. Won't call OM on speaker phone, won't quit job (she outright told me she didn't think she'd have to), won't do the sitdown with the parents to talk about what happened (her sister and mom said they won't take part), won't take poly. Wants to find compromises for all actions. I keep saying these are must-have for me to continue. That's not a good enough answer for her.

I'm done. Filing tomorrow. 

Not going to out others either. Going to hold those as bargaining chips for D proceedings. I think they'll help get what I want in the settlement. I can always expose after, too.


----------



## YPbPr

Eli-Zor said:


> It takes but a few moments to copy the template work exposure letter and send it to his company.


Can you point me to it?


----------



## Almostrecovered

I think it's in the newbie thread in my signature


----------



## keko

What if she intentionally stalled you to file first herself? 

Don't tell her you're divorcing, just have her served.


----------



## keko

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics. 

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship. 

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,


----------



## Shaggy

Did you get that var in place? Listen to it! Me thinks he has talked to her and told her to stand up to you and come to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

One of her toxic friends or the OM must have gotten to her between the time you talked last night and today.

Sorry she led you on brother.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> B*tch is crazy! W called to make small talk while driving. Started talking about us. She rescinded most of what she promised last night. Won't call OM on speaker phone, won't quit job (she outright told me she didn't think she'd have to), won't do the sitdown with the parents to talk about what happened (*her sister and mom said they won't take part*), won't take poly. Wants to find compromises for all actions. I keep saying these are must-have for me to continue. That's not a good enough answer for her.
> 
> I'm done. Filing tomorrow.
> 
> Not going to out others either. Going to hold those as bargaining chips for D proceedings. I think they'll help get what I want in the settlement. I can always expose after, too.


My thought is toxic mom and sister talked her down. They must have it in for you, perhaps they've helped bad mouth you behind your back? 

I'm sorry the job was just the bargaining chip it seemed like it was.

Stay strong.


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> B*tch is crazy! W called to make small talk while driving. Started talking about us. She rescinded most of what she promised last night. Won't call OM on speaker phone, won't quit job (she outright told me she didn't think she'd have to), won't do the sitdown with the parents to talk about what happened (her sister and mom said they won't take part), won't take poly. Wants to find compromises for all actions. I keep saying these are must-have for me to continue. That's not a good enough answer for her.
> 
> I'm done. Filing tomorrow.
> 
> Not going to out others either. Going to hold those as bargaining chips for D proceedings. I think they'll help get what I want in the settlement. I can always expose after, too.


Stay strong YPbPr, This is the pits. someone (OM?) convinced her you were a yellow bellied pu$$y. The absolute first thing I would do is call his boss tomorrow morning and tell them whats going on and that you will be filing divorce naming him as the adultering affair partner. 

Tonight you can put him on cheaterville.com. There is a place there to send annonymous emails. Send emails to him, his boss, your wife and sister in law. Send an email to sil telling her she is next. Do you know who her affair partner is?

So so sorry you are going through this. I thought you had this licked. I don't think she thinks you will file. I also don't think she could take him teasing her. I would make one more phone call to him.

Prayers for you and good luck from here on out.

Chap


http://www.cheaterville.com/


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> B*tch is crazy! W called to make small talk while driving. Started talking about us. She rescinded most of what she promised last night. Won't call OM on speaker phone, won't quit job (she outright told me she didn't think she'd have to), won't do the sitdown with the parents to talk about what happened (her sister and mom said they won't take part), won't take poly. Wants to find compromises for all actions. I keep saying these are must-have for me to continue. That's not a good enough answer for her.
> 
> I'm done. Filing tomorrow.
> 
> Not going to out others either. Going to hold those as bargaining chips for D proceedings. I think they'll help get what I want in the settlement. I can always expose after, too.



I have to disagree with outing them. If you had outed OM when he broke contact everything would have gone down differently and it could not have been worse than whats happening now. Your doormat tendencies just keep kicking you in the ass. Maybe in time you will realize how you folded like a cheap tent and let another man take over your marriage.

Bummer


----------



## iheartlife

This is one of the reasons why contacting the OM was a bad idea.

You had him 'quaking in his boots.'



> Spoke directly to OM. I was very direct, said what I knew, said I'd badly expose him at work. He sound timid and weak. *He even said how important work is to him*. Told him to cancel all plans for tonight and to never talk to her again. I said he could an excuse for tonight but moving forward no contact and reasons for no contact. He sounded scared. W called 30 minutes later saying she's headed home and she is. Crisis averted for now. Thank you do much for sharing our wisdom.



But then, you didn't follow through.

He took that and learned his lesson; you were full of threats.

I wonder if she's also tested out the theory with others that you got into his phone. She perhaps felt you out to see what you did / didn't know. Or maybe talked to him on the phone (say with the phone at work, rather than her cell phone) to see if you picked upon it.

Could she have found the VAR, or did you pull it?


----------



## YPbPr

I pulled var Friday. No clue about that. toxic mom and sister def talked her down. I threatened to call om and she gave him a text warning. I'm only talking to her about divorce proceedings at this point. She keep asking me not out her to her boss. Or out her sis. I know who ails ap is. W said she's take a hit on me if I outer sil. Got that on the var. Spoke with ws father. Rug sweeper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

Y, forget about telling her what you're going to do, just do it. Stop showing her your hand. This only gives her time to know how much you know/what you'll say and make a plan to counter it.


----------



## turnera

Here's one big f'ing clue: Anytime a cheater tells you not to do something, DO IT.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Here's one big f'ing clue: Anytime a cheater tells you not to do something, DO IT.


PLEASE think before you open your mouth to her. They are playing with the jokers and you are playing with half a deck.


----------



## Shaggy

Stop talking and start nuking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Somehow I missed this thread. let me tell you what happened. Wish I posted much earlier. You were in the BS fog.


When you blasted her that morning she was sh!t scared that she was about to lose her and her OM's job. This was the first time that she saw you man up and knew you would burn everything that was in your way. She likely discussed the situation with her validators and her OM. They knew the potential risks to their careers and asked her to delay you as much as possible 

She met you and tried to bargain the information for saving her job. You did not buy the offer. She likely guessed the VAR(or you were compromised) and then tested waters with bullsh!t story. Unfortunately you bought this. She is a good sales person alright. Remember, this is a woman that started an affair few months into the marriage after her first one ended in similar situation. She lied all her way through this couple of months only confirming what you could prove and even providing one bit more.(She even had the galls to admit that she gave up nothing to the OM and was proud of it)

I am imagining 2 scenarios on why she "was" begging for R

1) because of her self image before her family and the shame of having 2 marriages end with affairs. She is not sure what proof you had and how much you could expose her

2) Stalling the exposure so that she could get some legal counsel regrading your possible exposure of the affair to both the companies and the effect on both their jobs. And in the mean time, they covered their tracks and got rid of all the evidence. The emails form the OM were just red herring leading to believe that everything was under you control.It is not necessary that the companies will fire her him. The legal counsel likely advised them about the lack of proof and nothing might happen even if you exposed and she is showing her true face again. She was even fishing on you got the info? How could you be more naive than that?


And when she wanted R you were up to it? This might be offensive but this is one of most idiotic things I've seen on this forum. This might be the same doormatted-ness that led to her disdain and disrespect to you in the first place(Not that you deserve it). The only time she respected was when you were sure of dumping her. Once you want her back, she is up to her tricks again

If I was your friend, I will definitely lose respect for you if you take her back.

Edit: And she will take it up in court with regards to the sex claim because, then it will definitely be a confession of affair and hence the job. You set up and played for a fool


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Somehow I missed this thread. let me tell you what happened. Wish I posted much earlier. You were in the BS fog.
> 
> 
> When you blasted her that morning she was sh!t scared that she was about to lose her and her OM's job. This was the first time that she saw you man up and knew you would burn everything that was in your way. She likely discussed the situation with her validators and her OM. They knew the potential risks to their careers and asked her to delay you as much as possible
> 
> She met you and tried to bargain the information for saving her job. You did not buy the offer. She likely guessed the VAR(or you were compromised) and then tested waters with bullsh!t story. Unfortunately you bought this. She is a good sales person alright. Remember, this is a woman that started an affair few months into the marriage after her first one ended in similar situation. She lied all her way through this couple of months only confirming what you could prove and even providing one bit more.(She even had the galls to admit that she gave up nothing to the OM and was proud of it)
> 
> I am imagining 2 scenarios on why she "was" begging for R
> 
> 1) because of her self image before her family and the shame of having 2 marriages end with affairs. She is not sure what proof you had and how much you could expose her
> 
> 2) Stalling the exposure so that she could get some legal counsel regrading your possible exposure of the affair to both the companies and the effect on both their jobs. And in the mean time, they covered their tracks and got rid of all the evidence. The emails form the OM were just red herring leading to believe that everything was under you control.It is not necessary that the companies will fire her him. The legal counsel likely advised them about the lack of proof and nothing might happen even if you exposed and she is showing her true face again. She was even fishing on you got the info? How could you be more naive than that?
> 
> 
> And when she wanted R you were up to it? This might be offensive but this is one of most idiotic things I've seen on this forum. This might be the same doormatted-ness that led to her disdain and disrespect to you in the first place(Not that you deserve it). The only time she respected was when you were sure of dumping her. Once you want her back, she is up to her tricks again
> 
> If I was your friend, I will definitely lose respect for you if you take her back.
> 
> Edit: And she will take it up in court with regards to the sex claim because, then it will definitely be a confession of affair and hence the job. You set up and played for a fool


THIS!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

I recommend you start a new thread in private members section. There is a possibility she is reading here, but that will be blocked from her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Yeah. Start a new thread in the private section.


----------



## YPbPr

How do we burn this thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> How do we burn this thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ask Halien to delete it.


----------



## Shaggy

I think you can delete the thread because you created it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

just ask them to move it over.


----------



## YPbPr

Can a mod please move this thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Update: w begged to not take her down. 10 min later w said shell quit job. I don't get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> Update: w begged to not take her down. 10 min later w said shell quit job. I don't get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just stay quiet and focused. Let her squirm for a day or so.


----------



## northland

Shaggy said:


> I recommend you start a new thread in private members section. There is a possibility she is reading here, but that will be blocked from her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she's reading this thread as you suspect, then publically posting to start a new one (or move it) in the private members section (rather than suggesting in a pm) is like holding up a big sign with an arrow that says "Your husband's thread has been moved over here, post 30x and you can see it as easily as you can see this one!".

Besides if she's reading, the damage has been done. This place isn't a safe haven for him anymore.



YPbPr said:


> W said she's take a hit on me if I outer sil. Got that on the var.


She'll take a hit on you? That sounds like a threat against your life.


----------



## keko

BS. She wants more time to file herself. What happened to the last time she accepted your terms? She's playing you for a fool, WAKE UP my man.


----------



## northland

keko said:


> BS. She wants more time to file herself. What happened to the last time she accepted your terms? She's playing you for a fool, WAKE UP my man.


She doesn't gain any advantage by filing first. 

Unless you think seeing one's own name as the plaintiff in the action (as opposed to the defendant) is some sort of advantage. 

Plus she'd have to pay the filing fees.


----------



## keko

northland said:


> She doesn't gain any advantage by filing first.
> 
> Unless you think seeing one's own name as the plaintiff in the action (as opposed to the defendant) is some sort of advantage.
> 
> Plus she'd have to pay the filing fees.


Yes she does, she gets to clear her name if she files under anything but adultery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

northland said:


> She'll take a hit on you? That sounds like a threat against your life.


Might be wise to always carry a recorder whenever talking to her.


----------



## northland

keko said:


> Yes she does, she gets to clear her name if she files under anything but adultery.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What is this nonsense about her "her name being cleared"?

She's a cheater. What's written in filings, petitions, and affadavits doesn't change a thing, half the stuff written in there is completely fabricated and the rest is twists and distortions of the truth. 

People will believe what they want to believe regardless of what they read or what they're told by the involved parties and when you think about it, who cares what these uninvolved third parties think? 

What's important is getting out of a bad marriage with a deceptive cheating partner. As quickly and as inexpensively as possible.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Leave the thread where it is , all your wife is doing is threatening you and your responding .

By the time you start listening and doing what needs to be done your marriage will have zero chance , you say to much to your wife and you do to little.

There is not even the need to give you a 2x4 , your wasting valuable time have forewarned her of your steps and the situation your in today is ----the same place as you have always been .

Art of war : do not tell your enemy or her allies what you are doing, action has the greatest effect words are meaningless . 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Read your first plan and start actioning each step. Only when your wife sees your serious will she behave . Your immediate aim is to take out the OM , shatter your wife's fantasy then work on the marriage if she shows true remorse.

You have the exposure templates, use them. As you have her access to her work mail secure her contact list, keep it in a safe place in case you require it later on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thruhellandback

I was the cheating wife. I have some insight.
1. From what you describe she is still talking and sharing with the OM.That's why she waffles back and forth 2. You cannot move forward without full disclosure. 3. She must be COMPLETELY transparent and want to either piss or get off the pot. 4. What she doesn't fully realise because she's still involved with him is that she cannot get a full picture of reality until she breaks contact. 5. She is getting a certain number of needs fulfilled by him and she doesn't want to let that go....but she fails to recongnise that you are fulfilling her needs as well. She idealises him but if she were to leave you THEN she would realise how you were meeting a certain number of needs as well. 
This needs to be all exposed and talked about before you can move forward. She needs to want to be there. She must promise and guarantee that she has completely broken contact AND be ready to prove it with full access to her phone....I let my husband communicate with the man I had been having an affair with and see and read everything... I accounted for my whereabouts everyday so that he could trust that I was really there and nothing was distracting me from the goal: trying to sort out how we could meet each other's needs again (His Needs, Her Needs: READ IT!) and work back to a connection again.
Yes install your spyware if you must but better yet ask her directly and openly for full disclosure....if she knows that she is a full partner in your reconciliation she will be less likely to bolt. Sneaking around can be detrimental. She must WANT to give you what you need as far as reassurance that the affair is over or only emotional. 
It sounds like you are early on at the "discovery' stage. This is a fragile time. 1-2 months after the discovery of my affair I washighly at risk of leaving him .It's really hard to accept that someone be able to read every email or text etc. It's intrusive. At first I would erase things that I was afraid would make him doubt me again so the more you push the more secretive she could get. I really feel for you. She is not quite on the same page as you and you are trying to cope with keeping everything together and dealing with all the feeling of betrayal at the same time. Before the MC, before you install all kinds of spyware....push her to make a real choice between the two of you and if she chooses you and insist that she prove that it has really ended. There is no half way here. She can't hang on to him even just emotionally, just 'in case' you guys don't work out.


----------



## Thruhellandback

Wow I just took the time to read the entire thread. My advice is moot. You do not have a wife capable of an open and honest relationship. You're not a doormat. I don't agree. You're just the guy who wanted to make sure that you both could work this through. I really don't see how you can.... She is too "addicted" (love this analogy...I felt somewhat addicted to the affair when I was deeply in) to even see the forest for the trees. 

Cut ties, cut loses and then get some therapy to make sure the next woman you have a relationship with doesn't have the same MO. (We all tend to pick the same kind of people over and over without realising it)
You deserve better. You deserve more. She is not an honest human being....especially with herself.


----------



## Almostrecovered

YPbPr said:


> How do we burn this thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you can delete the first post (click edit) and it will nuke the whole thread

or you can PM a mod and ask to move into private section


----------



## aug

Make several copies of your recordings. Especially the one where she threatened to take a hit on you. 

Make copies of other info you have.

Have at least one copy offsite, away from your home, perhaps with a very trusted friend or relative.


----------



## aug

YPbPr said:


> I pulled var Friday. No clue about that. toxic mom and sister def talked her down. I threatened to call om and she gave him a text warning. I'm only talking to her about divorce proceedings at this point. She keep asking me not out her to her boss. Or out her sis. I know who ails ap is. *W said she's take a hit on me if I outer sil.* Got that on the var. Spoke with ws father. Rug sweeper.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This in itself shows that your situation/relationship is moving to an end. When someone threatens to kill you, it's over.


----------



## PHTlump

I think it's time to bravely run away.

I doubt your wife is reading this thread. If she wanted to string you along, it would have been much easier to just keep up the appearances of reconciliation while not doing the actions.

It's time to get out while your investment in her is low. And I would talk to your lawyer about exposing her at work. It would be awful to get her fired and end up paying her support.

Good luck.


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

PHTlump said:


> I think it's time to bravely run away.


That sounds like the ballad of Brave Sir Robin.

Y - no matter how hard it seems right now at this moment, just remember that 6 months from now you will have moved on and be living your life. Thank God that you didn't have to waste 15 years of your life to find out what a complete whackjob you married (and family you married into). 

Just don't let yourself forget this and drop your resolve - Really. what kind of nut sexts and kisses another man 6 weeks after getting married. If you need to clarify that boundary with someone, its just a lost cause.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Update: w begged to not take her down. 10 min later w said shell quit job. I don't get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Notice that you didn't type:

"Update: w begged to not end marriage. 10 min later w said shell do anything I ask to save us, not just quit job but anything else, including family meeting to expose affair. I don't get it."


----------



## Shamwow

So sorry to see how this is playing out. OP, I know you want to save the marriage you thought you had (and would always have), but for your sake now it's time to detach. Detach, hang out w friends, don't discuss anything with her except the divorce settlement, detach some more, go out without your ring on and enjoy the attention (but don't do anything stupid), new hobbies, go to a gun range and fire off a few boxes, gym, etc. Everything else must now be more important than your stbxw. She is gone. And the only way you walk out with dignity is INDIFFERENCE to her from here on out. Please detach and don't give an inch. She has won every round so far, and while it's not a game or a contest, there's no reason for you to be nice to her anymore.

Time to put your thread title into effect 100%. 180 time brother, and it's all for you. Read it again and do it. Detach. Life should be so much better than what your stbxw is expecting you to accept.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

Well all... I gave it my best shot and it was a wild ride. When she came home saying she wasn't prepared to R based on the R script I knew it was over. 

THE 180 IS HERE! 549 posts later. Is that a site record? 

I want you all to know that I'm no longer bargaining for R. It's D all the way. No need to expose W, SIL, OM unless D proceeding warrant such needs. And, even if they don't I still have the option.

Wife is out of the house and living with a friend. Not sure when she'll come back. I'm going to move her items into the guest room and pack up her things that are in common areas so I can start moving on. I'm going to finish Save The Marriage since I only have about a 1/4 of the way to go. Then I'm going to finish NMMNG. I'm going to find a therapist and maybe even a D therapy group. 

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP. I feel like I might be able to help a friend now if this were to happen to them.


----------



## Almostrecovered

YPbPr said:


> THE 180 IS HERE! 549 posts later. Is that a site record?.


unfortunately, no

(some never even did after twice the pages)


----------



## keko

Good luck Y, Im happy you're moving out of the limbo.

I would still suggest you expose to their workplace before D, otherwise it may look like a revenge in the eyes of HR.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Sad , now she gets free reign to gaslight you , all because you won't tell the truth to those that impact her life. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

And she gets to tell her version to family, friends, and work colleagues about what an awful husband you were to anyone who will listen, because of no exposure


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> No need to expose W, SIL, OM unless D proceeding warrant such needs.


Oh boy! Now you have an _excuse_ not to do the one thing you should have done before everything else, the one thing you were scared to do. *sigh*


----------



## bandit.45

Get a quick anullment. Don't waste money on divorce. Once it goes thru and you are in the clear then expose to everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Seriously! Get an annulment.


----------



## YPbPr

Why doesn't everyone think she wasn't exposed. I told her parents and sis directly who the person was and what she did. Her ex-H knows, too. They know exactly what happened. Whether they choose to believe it or not is another thing. The work exposure can take place anytime.


----------



## iheartlife

bandit.45 said:


> Get a quick anullment. Don't waste money on divorce. Once it goes thru and you are in the clear then expose to everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you can swing an annulment. I don't know all the ins and outs of those and how your spouse can block one. She very well might contest it somehow out of spite.

So another tack I've seen suggested is to have preliminary visits with as many divorce attorneys as you can so that she is precluded from hiring her choice of lawyer.

see, e.g.,
Conflict of Interest - Conflict of Interest Defined

I know it sounds petty, and ordinarily it would be that plus childish and immature and silly, too. But this is a woman who took her first ex to the cleaners, marriage apparently is just a game to her. She toyed with your heart and discarded it within weeks of saying her vows. Time to show her it's much more serious than that and she better think twice before trying D for a third time with her future boy toy, whomever that might be


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> Why doesn't everyone think she wasn't exposed. I told her parents and sis directly who the person was and what she did. Her ex-H knows, too. They know exactly what happened. Whether they choose to believe it or not is another thing. The work exposure can take place anytime.


If it had taken place after you told the OM that it would because of breach of No Contact, maybe things would have unfolded differently.

But the truth is, why argue the point. She has never understood what it means to be married and as pro-R and pro-marriage as I am, you are truly better off without her.


----------



## mackerel

I'm still hoping you further expose her, and that she loses her job. I still am hoping you expose her Sister in Law. I'm not understanding why you are holding info from your Brother in Law. If Someone ever told me that wife cheated, then I would want them to tell me. 

Please just get into Alpha Male mode. Channel your Inner Kobe Bryant and go for the kill. This woman is vile and disgusting. She has disrespected you to the highest degree and still hasn't told you 100% of the truth. She is not remorseful. She commited the adultery only after 3 months. This is not just a regular woman. I'm willing to bet 1 stack, that she has cheated on you multiple times before and after the marriage.

I hope you succeed brother in your future endeavors and pick a better woman. Never EVER EVER let another woman control you in and around the bedroom.


----------



## happyman64

Oh Y,

You just do not listen and take everyone's advice.



> Wife is out of the house and living with a friend. Not sure when she'll come back.


You need to get it in your thick head that she is not coming back. You need to take this view to save you, improve you and move on for yourself. Not her.

Your wife is a cheater. She will soon be a 2x loser. Stop thinking she might come back and proceed with a D or annulment.

Pack her crap up and throw it in the garage. 

Do not speak to her.
Do not text her.
Do not communicate with her.

It is time to go dark not to make her feel bad because she truly does not give a cr*p about you. Go dark on her to detach. 

Shamwow is right. Take off your ring and go out with friends. 

Get your back bone straight and walk on with your life. Find a whole woman who will show you respect and love you 110%.

You should be tired of wanting a backstabbing, lying, manipulative biotch!!!!

Get you marriage ended legally so you can move on with your life in a positive direction.

You remind me of myself over 20 years ago. Never look back ever!!!! Just look ahead. *The view is so much better!!!*
HM64


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> Why doesn't everyone think she wasn't exposed. I told her parents and sis directly who the person was and what she did. Her ex-H knows, too. They know exactly what happened. Whether they choose to believe it or not is another thing. The work exposure can take place anytime.


The other man destroyed your marriage and it sure likes you are slinking off with your tail between your legs. Do you not know how disgusting this actually looks? Especcially to your wife? Name one thing you have done that makes you look like more of a man than her boyfriend. 

I know I'm not beating my head against the brick wall in this thread again.


----------



## jh52

chapparal said:


> The other man destroyed your marriage and it sure likes you are slinking off with your tail between your legs. Do you not know how disgusting this actually looks? Especcially to your wife? Name one thing you have done that makes you look like more of a man than her boyfriend.
> 
> I know I'm not beating my head against the brick wall in this thread again.


Y -- you need to stand up for youself sometime in life. If you have never done this before -- now would be an excellent time.

You have told your wife in advance ever move you were going to make -- including threaten to file on Monday -- while she sweet talked you into giving her a chance -- and now less than 48 hours she is no longer living with you. Once again she played you.

If you are a person who needs pictures to understand just how things are -- let me picture this scenario -- with no intent on hurting you anymore as your XW, family and OM have already.

But your wife and her family are probably have a good laugh at your expense as I type this (especially XW and cheating XSIL). And when your EX and OM finish the deed the next time -- and once they catch their breath after doing it for the 3rd time that night -- they will have another laugh at your expense. I have never seen a woman with so much HATE and NO RESPECT for her husband than I have seen on this thread.

ALL I AM SUGGESTING IS FOR YOU TO BECOME A MAN AND GROW A PAIR. If you don't learn now -- I am afraid your next relationship will proabaly end the same way.

Get the anullment -- then expose, expose and expose at work (XW and OM) as well as your XSIL to her husband. 

It is up to you now in how your proceed -- but sometimes in order for us to grow throughout our life -- we have to have the courage to say enough is enough and step out of our comfort zone.

Good luck !!


----------



## Shaggy

Actually expose tomorrow morning and get the annulment going in the afternoon.

She's payed you very well. Now she thinks she has you beaten and down. Want to change things, stop talking and start acting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## profos

YPbPr said:


> Well all... I gave it my best shot and it was a wild ride. When she came home saying she wasn't prepared to R based on the R script I knew it was over.
> 
> THE 180 IS HERE! 549 posts later. Is that a site record?
> 
> I want you all to know that I'm no longer bargaining for R. It's D all the way. No need to expose W, SIL, OM unless D proceeding warrant such needs. And, even if they don't I still have the option.
> 
> Wife is out of the house and living with a friend. Not sure when she'll come back.


Now that she's made it clear that she has no intention of reconciling, and she's moved out of the house so she can continue her affair without having to deal with you, and you're "not sure when she's coming back", you're going to do the 180?

That's sort of like saying "I'm going to lock the barn door now, because the cow is out in the field".

None of the decisions to date have been yours, she's calling the shots and you're reacting. If she returned home next week and said she wasn't sure if she wanted to divorce, what do you think you'd do?

I already know the answer I'm just wondering if YOU do?

P.S. I agree there's no point in exposing the affair, all it will do is increase conflict and make the divorce more difficult. Who cares what other people think about you or the reasons for the divorce, just get it done. Exposure doesn't get anything done it just gets people pissed off.


----------



## Shaggy

Actually it can help the divorce by removing her cosy support system which is enabling her affair.

Knockem down first, then negotiate,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Seriously, do what you want with exposure, Y. Her family knows, as does yours. (though I feel for BIL if he's truly in the dark on his W's indiscretions). Just use this as a launch pad to try to step out of the box as much as possible from here on out. Be a new person. Do things you previously would be afraid to do. Put yourself in uncomfortable situations for the sake of doing just that. Good luck with the coming weeks and months...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Personally, I feel shame for you in that you didn't tell BIL that HE is being cheated on. You could at least have the decency to do that much, even if you're too afraid to expose OM.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I understand that exposing OM to work at this point is just an exercise in revenge (since exposure could have helped pull wifey out of the fog and that's not your priority anymore), so I dont blame you

but tunera is right, your BIL deserves to know what he his wife is doing


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Personally, I feel shame for you in that you didn't tell BIL that HE is being cheated on. You could at least have the decency to do that much, even if you're too afraid to expose OM.


Very suspicious, no?


----------



## Shaggy

Update
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YPbPr

W left the house to shack up with co-worker mid-week. Didn't communicate with W until yesterday afternoon. She headed to be with family for the long weekend. She's still talking with OM, keeps asking if NC, quitting job, etc is what I need her to. I asked her what she wants and she says she doesn't know. I've started legal paperwork and I asked her to meet with the marshall to get served. 180'ing hard right now. Moving on. I know you guys are very concerned about BIL. That will come in due time. It's not the right timing right now. Sorry.


----------



## Shaggy

YPbPR,

If she keeps asking if thats what you need - have you told her "yes"? I assuming you have , so what is her response when you ask her why she keeps asking?

I'm sorry its come to this point. You've been working your tail off for her. 

Do you know what she's been saying to the OM?


----------



## the guy

Why didn't you tell that she need to do that for *her* marriage and for her self?

I get you want her to make the dicision for her self and not for you, but you could have made it more of a point instead of throwing it back on her.


----------



## OldWolf57

well there you go. still trying to control you. cake eater is what she is. way to earlier in th marriage for this drama. I just never understood why you con't see that. If she somehow convince you for another ago at it you will be spying and worrying your whole marriage. By the way, hold on to the evidence, so if they try to end run you with BIL when you tell him, you will have proof. Also give him your methods of detecting so he can verify what you tell him. Good luck man.


----------



## Affaircare

YPbPr said:


> ...She's still talking with OM, keeps asking if NC, quitting job, etc is what I need her to. I asked her what she wants and she says she doesn't know.


"Yes, I still require a partner in life who actually honors her promises and will give me 100% of her affection and loyalty. I will not accept anything less than 100%. Due to the choices you have made committing adultery at work, I would still require quitting your job and I would require no contact EVER AGAIN in order to demonstrate to me 100% of your affection and 100% of your loyalty. When/if you are ready to give me 100%, contact me."



> I've started legal paperwork and I asked her to meet with the marshall to get served. 180'ing hard right now. Moving on.


The best thing you can do is to allow her to experience the consequences of her choices--both legally and financially. Right now she's in that fog that says she gets to keep the house and your money, but you get all the debts and responsibilities. By allowing her to see that choosing infidelity has costs...she may realize that the cost is too high. At that point, it would be up to you whether you want to try recovery or not. Either way, by filing you are setting it so that society is enforcing the consequences of her choices--not you being a "meanie." 

:smthumbup: Keep it up. You're on a pretty good track.


----------



## YPbPr

Thanks again all. W returned to house yesterday. To remind you all, she left Wednesday to live with a friend and then went to her parents for the long weekend.

Upon her return I got the remorseful, crying version of my W who begged me not to D her and said she'd do almost anything to reconcile. She's agreed to NC letter/call and digital transparency. She won't quit her job (I don't think that's best for either of us) but will implement the middle-man strategy described earlier in this thread. She said she would call me immediately if the OM contacted her outside of work and she will NOT engage in any non-business contact. She said she would still take the poly is I want it (I think that's extreme). She's agreed to hardcore MC at any cost and she's willing to read infidelity books.

I'm not sure what I should do here. I told myself I'd file no matter what she said when she came home but I feel there's a genuine R here. She says she did not sleep with the guy. I'm wondering if I should ease up and go through some R motions with her over the next month and see what happens.


----------



## warlock07

Read your own thread again.


----------



## iheartlife

What about the fam sit down that sil and mil won't do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Y,

Why ease up now.

If it was me and I wanted my wife to know how serious I am about her infidelity as well as reconciliation I would file for divorce.

I would tell her that gives us 3 months(time frame before divorce is final) for her to show true remorse, give her time to setup up proper boundaries and truly show you that she wants you and the marriage.

THat is what I would do but you are the man onsite and you see her for what she is so in the end it is your decision.

HM64


----------



## aug

warlock07 said:


> Read your own thread again.



Yes, cycle repeats.


----------



## Shaggy

And why does she now say all this?

Hopefully you still had the var in her car!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I think she is scared of the stigma of ending two marriages due to infidelity and her own relationship with her family.

Have you exposed to BIL?

This much drama, lying, humiliation and cheating so early in a marriage and you still want to stay with her? What is wrong with you?

She has good hold on you. Once she talks to you or once you see her crying, all you resolve melts away in a millisecond


----------



## aug

YPbPr said:


> Upon her return I got the remorseful, crying version of my W who begged me not to D her and said she'd do almost anything to reconcile. She's agreed to NC letter/call and digital transparency. She won't quit her job (I don't think that's best for either of us) but will implement the middle-man strategy described earlier in this thread. She said she would call me immediately if the OM contacted her outside of work and she will NOT engage in any non-business contact. She said she would still take the poly is I want it (I think that's extreme). She's agreed to hardcore MC at any cost and she's willing to read infidelity books.



Is her real intention there? She's getting good at this.

Reconciliation and MC do not work if her heart is not in it.


----------



## warlock07

Should he take her back even if her heart is in it? her heart is too fickle to be trusted in the long term.


----------



## donders

YPbPr said:


> I'm not sure what I should do here. I told myself I'd file no matter what she said when she came home but I feel there's a genuine R here. She says she did not sleep with the guy. I'm wondering if I should ease up and go through some R motions with her over the next month and see what happens.


Tough call.

I think you're grasping at straws but I know you'd do just about anything to get her back so what do you have to lose?

Just don't be one of those betrayed spouses who keeps giving chances. 

She cannot just disappear for a week and give you a story about where she was during that time.

I also find it troubling that she refuses to quit her job. You might think it's best for both of you that she doesn't but the point is you requested that she quit to show you she really means what she says about reconciling and instead you're getting "I want back in but I refuse to quit my job". At that point it's not about the job at all its about her sincerity. She should be willing to go to the end of the earth for you not just give you bits and pieces of what you ask.

My 2 cents


----------



## sandc

I've been following your thread but I'm just chiming in now. You should proceed with the divorce. You can always stop the process later if you wife is truly wanting R and is holding up her end AND you want to R with her. I think you should hold fast that she needs to quit the job or the D happens. She needs to go NC or D happens. She needs to be fully transparent or the D happens. She takes the poly or D happens. <Tack on any other conditions here> or D happens.

This should give you time to evaluate if she is for real or not. If she is for real, you do not proceed with the divorce if that's what you decide. If she is not, the divorce proceeds as scheduled and you find someone who deserves you.


----------



## sandc

And another thing, she's willing to do "almost anything" to R? Then she isn't fully committed. She MUST be willing to do ANYTHING you ask. ANY...THING.


----------



## OldWolf57

Warlock got it, she has him and he see dollars signs. Poly too extreme huh ?? " He don't have much on us " on VAR. cake eater and rug sweeper. Well whatever. I'll just stick around for the entertainment value now.


----------



## OldWolf57

Just to leave you with a lil hope. If you guys can REALLY make this work, and grow stronger in the marriage, you guys should have a very rewarding life. GOOD LUCK !!!


----------



## Chaparral

I'll dissent here because I don't believe in divorce except for abandonment and adultery. The old fashioned kind. If you can man up and be the head of the household you may be able to make this work.
However, up to now you have let her and especially the POSOM, walk all over you.

You told him what would happen if he made contact. If you do not deal with that you are not worth being married to. Out him and wipe the smile off his face. No ifs, no ands, and no buts.


----------



## turnera

chapparal said:


> You told him what would happen if he made contact. If you do not deal with that you are not worth being married to. Out him and wipe the smile off his face. No ifs, no ands, and no buts.


 Worth repeating. Don't be the chump here. LEAD.


----------



## turnera

She will do ALMOST anything?

Test her resolve. 

Demand what you ALREADY told her you needed - "If you won't quit your job, I am divorcing you."

If you do anything less, you are being a chump and she WILL cheat on you again.


----------



## iheartlife

turnera said:


> Worth repeating. Don't be the chump here. LEAD.


I think you're quoting yourself, turnera, from about 15 pages ago...


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> W . . . begged me not to D her and said she'd do almost anything to reconcile.
> 
> She's agreed to NC letter/call and digital transparency.
> 
> She won't quit her job (I don't think that's best for either of us) . . .
> 
> will implement the middle-man strategy described earlier in this thread.
> 
> She said she would call me immediately if the OM contacted her outside of work and she will NOT engage in any non-business contact.
> 
> She said she would still take the poly is I want it (I think that's extreme).
> 
> She's agreed to hardcore MC at any cost and
> 
> she's willing to read infidelity books.
> 
> I'm not sure what I should do here. I told myself I'd file no matter what she said when she came home . . .
> 
> I'm wondering if I should ease up and go through some R motions with her over the next month and see what happens.


We knew she was a good negotiator, but boy howdy.

She's knocked down the various promises to quit her job to a "middle man solution" and "calling you when the OM calls her." Let's recall the VAR conversations she had with the OM after you told BOTH of them to go no contact to see how ridiculous this is as a solution.

Next, you were all for the poly, but now "it's too extreme." So you have her word for saying she didn't have sex with the OM. I wonder if she uses the Bill Clinton definition of sex, or not? Well, guess you'll never know if you go this route.

You still haven't filed for divorce. No, what has happened is that you THREATENED divorce.

Just like you THREATENED exposure. Do you remember where that got you?


----------



## Jibril

I agree wholeheartedly with the folks who are telling you to expose, file for divorce, and enforcing the polygraph.

You're wavering, YPbPr. She's said a few things you wanted to hear, and now you're tripping over yourself to accommodate her. Her words are honeyed poison. She's trying to make you comfortable, trying to calm you and get you to back down. If you stop - if you refuse to expose her at work, if you don't file for divorce, if you don't make her take the polygraph - she will take that to mean that you are bluffing. That you are threatening, but won't carry anything out. 

In truth, you _haven't_ carried anything out. 

If you want to save this marriage, you need to *step up*. She cannot contact the other man. You must make sure of that by exposing her at work. You don't know if she has been honest. You must push the polygraph. She doesn't think you're serious about enforcing consequences for her infidelity and transgressions. So you must file for divorce. Until the time comes where she truly shows remorse for what she's done, and commits to repairing the marriage, you must be working towards leaving her.

If she truly wants to work things out with you, she will not object. I suspect that she will scream bloody murder instead. I could be wrong, but I get a strong sense of "false reconciliation" from your last post. And you're willing to take that from her. I don't think she'll appreciate being forced to play by your rules, if you do what others and myself have suggested.

But it's important that you *do* so. Sweeping things under the rug now will bite you in the ass later.


----------



## iheartlife

iheartlife said:


> You still haven't filed for divorce. No, what has happened is that you THREATENED divorce.


Actually....I may have to eat my words. I read that the legal paperwork was nearly done last week, and you were making arrangements to have her served. Was she in fact served with divorce?

What did the lawyer say about annulment vs. divorce?


----------



## Shaggy

Wait, didn't this all happen the other weekend too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## keko

WTF?

I see a huge fail bus coming your way.


----------



## Jibril

Shaggy said:


> Wait, didn't this all happen the other weekend too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Last weekend, he listened to the VAR and _confirmed_ that she was still contacting the other man, and the conversation suggested that they had a physical affair as well (some talk about sexual inadequacy, if I recall). YPbPr kicked her out, only to let her back in the _next day_. He didn't do _anything_ he planned on doing, either, because she essentially sweet-talked her way into false R.

The other man also contacted her with flirty emails almost immediately after this incident, violating the no-contact condition YPbPr _himself_ imposed on wife's affair partner. Yet he _still_ didn't expose the affair as he threatened to.

Within a _day_, wife rescinded everything she promised via telephone to other man (VAR caught that). YPbPr heard, and threatened _yet again_ with divorce. Wife talks with toxic mother and sister, who enable her. Wife warns her affair partner that YPbPr might expose the affair at work. 

Wife calls later and begs not to be divorced and promises to quit her job. YPbPr _yet again_ backs down.

The next day, wife comes home and says she doesn't want to reconcile. Wife leaves and stays with a "friend." YPbPr claims he will no longer bargain for reconciliation. He claims he will 180. 

Wife comes back home today, crying and asking to be taken back by YPbPr. Once _again_, YPbPr wavers. He listens to her BS, and considers a few crocodile tears and the promise of R to be enough to put all of this _utter disrespect_ behind him.

And YPbPr _still_ hasn't exposed his cheating sister in law to her husband, either. 

Look, YPbPr. This is getting ridiculous. *Ridiculous*. You're like a bloody _yo-yo_ - you're utterly indecisive, and keep bouncing back between reconciling and divorce. I can't help but feel like everyone's advice has fallen on deaf ears. You clearly don't _want_ to divorce. You clearly have _no_ problem sweeping this obvious affair under the rug whenever your wife comes running back to you. So why bother asking for help?

What you _should_ be doing is _*filing the damned divorce*_. If you want her to end the affair, you _should_ _*expose her and her partner at work*_. If you want her to come clean, you _should_ push the _*polygraph*_ on her. 

And if you had some decency, you should tell your brother-in-law (in-law?) about your wife's sister's affair. 

But if you just want to sweep this under the rug and continue yo-yoing, then by all means: keep doing what you've been doing.


----------



## warlock07

It is like the same loop plays over and over again.


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

A guy is certainly free to change his mind after careful consideration of a matter, but I find this change of heart of yours about the polygraph illuminating. I think it really says alot about your pliable nature.




YPbPr said:


> Polygraph. Love it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





YPbPr said:


> I mentioned the poly this morning and she said she'd do it.





YPbPr said:


> Before W mentioned left for work yesterday, I said I felt she only offering up the bare minimum of facts that would just be enough to win me over. I suggested the poly and she immediately said she'd do it if that is what it takes.
> 
> W said she wants to take poly. She also offered to me that she shared the idea with her family and attorney. *They thought it was extreme *but advised her to do it.





YPbPr said:


> She said she would still take the poly is I want it (*I think that's extreme*).


----------



## sandc

I've been rooting for OP but I have to admit, I've lost interest. He only pays lip service to wanting change. Will check back in a few weeks to see if any progress has been made.


----------



## NotLikeYou

warlock07 said:


> It is like the same loop plays over and over again.


Yeah. It's almost like someone is stringing a bunch of someones along or something.


----------



## the guy

From my count its 2 and 2 and bottom of the 9th. Maybe three stricks and shes out. So throw her one more pitch and see if she can hit a home run or strick out, but IMO this would be her last pitch.
BTW, the " almost " do any thing is very concerning, so good luck and see what happens next week.
Folks there have been and are plenty of poeple going down the same road, often they never return due to embarrasment, or they they come back and let others know what worked or what didn't.

Y- I hope you come back and share, there will for sure be more newbies that could learn from your approach to all of this.


----------



## Chaparral

I cna see where her not quitting her job could work. She doesn't work with the POSOM, he is a customer. Other people could handle the acct.

Exposing POSOM to his work however, is a must and no brainer. Not exposing SIL is an option as long as OP feels being cheated on is OK. I'm guessing not.

Wife's main issue with OP is him being weak. When he goes forward in strength she wants to come back. When he waffles, she trows it all right in his face. This isn't rocket science.


----------



## Almostrecovered

warlock07 said:


> It is like the same loop plays over and over again.


It's like reading the directions of a shampoo bottle


----------



## mackerel

Wow,

This has gotten really pathetic. It's now understandable why she has cheated and has no remorse. You have no balls sir. Your estrogen is overflowing and you are a doormat. People here have told you what to do countless times and you kept reneging, time after time.

Keep us posted though. I can't wait till you catch her with her boy toy having sex in the act and then telling you to shut the door because you're embarrasing her, only for you to go in the other room and eat a turkey sandwich crying. Good luck.


----------



## NotLikeYou

mackerel, I find your observations to be mean and hurtful (on behalf of YPbPr, who I don't actually know). I am quite sure that if you accused him of being ball-less in person, that he would smack you down immediately with his purse.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no "magic pill" that a "guy" can take that will shut off his flow of estrogen, and given how emotional it makes people of both sexes, I think you noting his excess supply may trigger a crying fit. I hope you're proud of yourself......

I must also take issue with your characterization of him as a doormat. I think we can all agree that a doormat just lays there and gets walked on. Anyone can clearly see that YPbPr is not some sort of doormat- he actively washes and cleans the feet that are stepping on him.

In the interests of providing positive support to our hero, please refer to him in the future as a "Total Foot Cleaning System."

And one last thing- your imaginary scenario of him catching them in the act and shutting the door on them would NEVER happen! C'mon, man, be serious. What if she needed some lube? If the door was closed, he wouldn't be able to hear her ask him to go get her some.

YBeepr, you ignore the haters, person. You can make it through this interesting time in your life, amiga!


----------



## aug

NotLikeYou said:


> mackerel, I find your observations to be mean and hurtful (on behalf of YPbPr, who I don't actually know). I am quite sure that if you accused him of being ball-less in person, that he would smack you down immediately with his purse.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, there is no "magic pill" that a "guy" can take that will shut off his flow of estrogen, and given how emotional it makes people of both sexes, I think you noting his excess supply may trigger a crying fit. I hope you're proud of yourself......
> 
> I must also take issue with your characterization of him as a doormat. I think we can all agree that a doormat just lays there and gets walked on. Anyone can clearly see that YPbPr is not some sort of doormat- he actively washes and cleans the feet that are stepping on him.
> 
> In the interests of providing positive support to our hero, please refer to him in the future as a "Total Foot Cleaning System."
> 
> And one last thing- your imaginary scenario of him catching them in the act and shutting the door on them would NEVER happen! C'mon, man, be serious. What if she needed some lube? If the door was closed, he wouldn't be able to hear her ask him to go get her some.
> 
> YBeepr, you ignore the haters, person. You can make it through this interesting time in your life, amiga!



Umm... funny but ouch?


----------



## warlock07

Why are posters abusing the OP? Funny but that is crossing a line.


----------



## Chaparral

aug said:


> Umm... funny but ouch?


Not funny enough to get by some good moderators evidently. Someone did not read their posting guidlines. We have lost a lot of OPs,that need our help, because of rudeness. OP has a plateful and doesn't need posters treating him like crap. I know threads can get frustrating, but even though they might not follow the best advice, its their battle they are fighting.

In any event two people have been banned for rudeness.


----------



## YPbPr

It's OK. Some of those posts were funny. I'm not worried about it. So... Not sure where we left off but W returned from long weekend with the same old song and dance only to return to her ambivalence after a day or two. We saw a new MC but W continues to be in one day and out the next. I served her the D papers before the weekend. She's moved out to stay with friends. She says she's taking the poly on her own tho. Weird. She also keeps asking if the D is for real. It is. FWIW, I'm not exposing OM, W, or SIL right now. Those are bargaining chips for D proceedings.


----------



## warlock07

> She says she's taking the poly on her own tho. Weird.



Sorry but :rofl::rofl::rofl:. Now she is delusional? 

So you have no hopes for R, right?


----------



## iheartlife

So my bet is that she takes her own poly, then runs around with the "winning" results like that husband of another forum member.

Thanks for being brave enough to check back in!


----------



## Acabado

> She also keeps asking if the D is for real.


 Make it totally real. Don't reach out. At All. Let her be the one to call. Also MC is a total waste IMO in this circunstances. Tell her she's all words nad you are movin on and let it at that. Period.
In case she's going to the marital house make sure she doesn't see anything wich resembles the ''couples time'' (pictures, etc) and put her stuff in trash bags. Make it your home.


----------



## Jibril

YPbPr said:


> It's OK. Some of those posts were funny. I'm not worried about it. So... Not sure where we left off but W returned from long weekend with the same old song and dance only to return to her ambivalence after a day or two. We saw a new MC but W continues to be in one day and out the next. I served her the D papers before the weekend. She's moved out to stay with friends. She says she's taking the poly on her own tho. Weird. She also keeps asking if the D is for real. It is. *FWIW, I'm not exposing OM, W, or SIL right now. Those are bargaining chips for D proceedings*.


Bargaining chips? I don't quite see it. Aside from blackmail, I don't understand why you would keep this to yourself. I understand that you might want to steer clear of the sister-in-law mess (though I really think you should tell the poor guy), but how does _not_ exposing the affair help you in any way?


----------



## Thruhellandback

Jibril said:


> Bargaining chips? I don't quite see it. Aside from blackmail, I don't understand why you would keep this to yourself. I understand that you might want to steer clear of the sister-in-law mess (though I really think you should tell the poor guy), but how does _not_ exposing the affair help you in any way?


I agree with jibril. What's the point? Either it's over and you divorce, in which case, you don't need to get nasty just bring the facts. Or you both want in and that especially means you have to leave the nastyness at the door. In Canada, it's a no fault divorce....so nastyness is conterproductive and slows down the process. Why would you want to prolong the divorce process? Are you gonna be able to get a better settlement if you can show that she's had an affair? If that's the case, I guess you have to ask yourself if the extra money at the end of the day will be worth all the emotional stress...and of that extra cash how much of it will go to the lawyer because it took longer to settle because you threw in all the nasty bits?
I think you need to try to look at this more objectively. The objective is getting divorced and getting what is yours out of this whilst keeping your sanity and your health. (prolonged exposure to those kind of stress hormones can be harmful to your health)


----------



## Chaparral

I think YP said his wife took her first husband to the cleaners. I think he's is holding the affairs over her head to agree to a quick settelment.


----------



## warlock07

That is the best thing he can do. Once things settle down, he should inform BIL


----------



## Shaggy

I think you should take the action against the OM to show your wife you have a pair and the she shouldn't push you in the D otherwise you will out her and SIL

Right now she thinks you will never have the spine to do it. You've backed down every time. She wont believe you would ever do it. So outing the OM is a bow shot to show her you mean business
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> I think you should take the action against the OM to show your wife you have a pair and the she shouldn't push you in the D otherwise you will out her and SIL
> 
> Right now she thinks you will never have the spine to do it. You've backed down every time. She wont believe you would ever do it. So outing the OM is a bow shot to show her you mean business
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its very odd that YP can't see she doesn't believe he has any ba!!s. I'm thinking he has had this problem before.


----------



## YPbPr

Taking the OM man out now could jeopardize W's career. If W looses job during D I could be held liable and have to pay out.

D papers were served Friday. Been NC but W stopped by house to get clothes Sunday. Been NC since then as well but not W is texting me asking me for sit-down. I've been NC. W's mom is now calling me to relay messages. I'm NC with her as well. Should I respond at all?


----------



## YPbPr

Holy crap... Now W's sis is calling, too.


----------



## Shaggy

I'd respond. At this point you need to look strong. Hiding from her isn't strong. Listening to her and then rejecting her if nothing has changed is stronger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

They are one interesting family, I will give them that.


----------



## Eli-Zor

> Taking the OM man out now could jeopardize W's career. If W looses job during D I could be held liable and have to pay out.


Not in the experience I have had with others in a similar situation to you.


----------



## keko

Ignore the calls. Where we're they when she was screwing around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

I agree with shaggy. Ignore her family.

Ask the ww this in a text "what is left to discuss? Give me a good reason why we should meet and talk?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Text your wife: "The time for talk is over. You had your chance to fix this and you threw it all back in my face and blamed me for your bad choices. Here is the name and number of my lawyer. Talk to him if you want to."


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> Taking the OM man out now could jeopardize W's career. If W looses job during D I could be held liable and have to pay out.
> 
> D papers were served Friday. Been NC but W stopped by house to get clothes Sunday. Been NC since then as well but not W is texting me asking me for sit-down. I've been NC. W's mom is now calling me to relay messages. I'm NC with her as well. Should I respond at all?


What do you want? You have filed for divorce. Do you really want divorce? Are you open to reconcilliation? If you are not do not respond. You could do as someone suggested and ask her what is there to discuss. If she says she doesn't want to divorce, ask her what has changed.


----------



## YPbPr

chapparal said:


> What do you want? You have filed for divorce. Do you really want divorce? Are you open to reconcilliation? If you are not do not respond. You could do as someone suggested and ask her what is there to discuss. If she says she doesn't want to divorce, ask her what has changed.


I called her back and W asked if we could meet to talk tomorrow so I asked what she wanted to talk about as I've been doing all the talking. I added that it was ridiculous that she gets to carry-on with OM and then tell me she needs time to decide on things.

W contends this is all very difficult for her and she doesn't want to regret loosing me. She keeps asking if we can go to a professional to help us "mediate" the R terms since the poly is so extreme to her. She also wants to keep her job. 

Next she did an unannounced pop-in (she was talking to me from car). She continued on with her R ideals. I told her I've seen this time and time again and I just don't believe her. How am I to know she'll flip again in another 24 hours.

She left. I e-mailed her book recommendation: Not Jus Frends and His Needs/Her Needs.


----------



## YPbPr

ps. I asked what's changed and she said she doesn't want to regret leaving the marriage.


----------



## iheartlife

YPbPr said:


> ps. I asked what's changed and she said she doesn't want to regret leaving the marriage.


Notice that she doesn't say she'll regret leaving you, she just doesn't want to be known as a twice-divorced woman. That is how I interpret that sentence.


----------



## bandit.45

YPbPr said:


> ps. I asked what's changed and she said she doesn't want to regret leaving the marriage.


:rofl:

She's insane.


----------



## iheartlife

I saw that post, keko, even though you deleted it. 

I am creeped out that I keep thinking like the super-D man when I am super R. What is wrong with this picture???


----------



## keko

iheartlife said:


> I saw that post, keko, even though you deleted it.
> 
> I am creeped out that I keep thinking like the super-D man when I am super R. What is wrong with this picture???


Welcome to the dark side.


----------



## happyman64

Y,

Your wife is still in control.

Notice how you call her back, she is on her cell and then she pops in unannounced to continue the conversation. She is in your face to influence you or steer you towards her wishes. 

Be aware of what she is doing.

She does not want to lose you???

Did you tell her all she has to do is drop OM, find a new job and work on the marriage without the usual lies and deciet......

Not too tall an order if she does not want to lose you.

She is heading to a 2X loser award buddy.

What a waste of brain matter between her shoulders.

Stick to your guns. She is full of crap, just serving it up on a new platter.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

YPbPr said:


> ps. I asked what's changed and she said she doesn't want to regret leaving the marriage.


Ask her why she is having such a hard time. Tell her you are either the love of her life or you're not. If you still love her,tell her you do but will not talk reconcilliation until she takes the actions to prove she loves you and not anyone else.

Tell her the whole polygraph thing was because she has lied so much you can't tell if she ever tells the truth. Ifmshe can't take the poly , tell her , she must be hiding something terrible like a physical affair.


----------



## Chaparral

One thing I anm unsure of is her job situation. If she stays at her job is it necessary for her to deal with OM. He is a customer of the company not a fellow employee. Is it that you just cannot be sure she would not deal with him?


----------



## iheartlife

chapparal said:


> One thing I anm unsure of is her job situation. If she stays at her job is it necessary for her to deal with OM. He is a customer of the company not a fellow employee. Is it that you just cannot be sure she would not deal with him?


She supposedly negotiated down leaving the job to having an intermediary deal with him as a client.


She is clearly a born negotiator who does it for a living and hates to lose. It's bizarre how your heart is just a pawn to her. She needs to "win" and just has to figure out how to do it.

Were the two of you ever deeply in love? I don't think I recall seeing the question answered, how long did you know each other before you married.


----------



## Almostrecovered

iheartlife said:


> I saw that post, keko, even though you deleted it.
> 
> I am creeped out that I keep thinking like the super-D man when I am super R. What is wrong with this picture???


It shouldn't be always try R or always try D

There are varying levels of betrayal ( as bad as poppy for example or as light as ONS where the WS confesses right away) some situations are very clear that D is best as it is too abusive to R


----------



## warlock07

What can she do in a bitter divorce? You were married only a few months right? I would assume that there would be no alimony


----------



## Acabado

Tell her if she has doubts she goes alone to MC and ask her/him if your conditions are reasonable, you are not bargaining anymore, your deal was rejected and you served her. Period.


----------



## the guy

After this marry go round, it you that need time. She can choose to what, but can she validate NC from OM or any OM. The job thing IMHO is still in the why? But what suck is you left the door open to R and she went through it then stepped back out. 

I mean geez how much can a guy take...... I'm all for marriage and R, but she screwed her self.......man I want to tell you to let her come through the door again but at the end of the day she used her last muligan and now its closed. 
Maybe it will be closed for ever maybe not, it your choice and its hers to wait it out or not.
I say finalize the D and start from scratch...with her again or not. My thinking is if she scews you over again, you want be so invested....at least finaciallyor legaly.

Man she screwed up and you have moved on.....do you want to take the risk of getting emotional f^cked if you let her through the door again??????? I say " now its your time to wait and see"


----------



## iheartlife

the guy said:


> After this marry go round, it you that need time. She can choose to what, but can she validate NC from OM or any OM. The job thing IMHO is still in the why? But what suck is you left the door open to R and she went through it then stepped back out.
> 
> I mean geez how much can a guy take...... I'm all for marriage and R, but she screwed her self.......man I want to tell you to let her come through the door again but at the end of the day she used her last muligan and now its closed.
> Maybe it will be closed for ever maybe not, it your choice and its hers to wait it out or not.
> I say finalize the D and start from scratch...with her again or not. My thinking is if she scews you over again, you want be so invested....at least finaciallyor legaly.
> 
> Man she screwed up and you have moved on.....do you want to take the risk of getting emotional f^cked if you let her through the door again??????? I say " now its your time to wait and see"


What also struck me when reading your post...maybe what she wants to do is get him back, and then dump him. Again, it has to do with insight into the mind of a negotiator (or a possible narcissist--they HATE rejection).

I just don't see the love in this relationship. It's just so short, and she's off cheating, before the wedding bouquet even turned brown. I just don't get it at all.


----------



## Shaggy

The response to her saying its hard for her should be:

It shouldn't be hard to chose to be faithful to your husband. So just saying its hard for you says all I need to hear to know that you are having a problem choosing that. So you have chosen the OM over your husband in the end. Goodbye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

The response to her saying its hard for her should be:

It shouldn't be hard to choose to be faithful to your husband. So just saying its hard for you says all I need to hear to know that you are having a problem choosing that. So you have chosen the OM over your husband in the end. Goodbye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

YPbPr said:


> ps. I asked what's changed and she said she doesn't want to regret leaving the marriage.


 Too bad none of the 'change' was about helping YOU achieve happiness. Still all about her.


----------



## Unendinglove

Help me friends!! Sorry to interupt this thread, I cant seem to figure out how to start one?

What do i do? Wife and i separated 4 months. 1 month ago she opened up to the chance to try again. For 3 weeks we went out, went on 2 trips and made love twice. Wow did i think I was well on the way to restoration. 

Then her daughter had a baby. The father is unemployed and lazy and who knows if he will stick it out. It seems the day since baby born, she has withdrawn and doesnt want to do anything??? What the hell happened??? My wife has had 4 previous Marriages and has a 12 year old son that knows how to control Momma.

While we lived together I did and provided everthing for them both. i am a damn good Christian Husband that honored his vows. The stepson knew how to manipulate our Marriage to get his way and told his momma lies that she always believed.

Anyway, my dilema. Should i go dark and let her wonder "what happened" or should i be the nice guy and just say, "honey I know you just became a grandma again and you need your space and time with family. I dont want to push you into a decision and just take your time and give us thoughtful consideration? 

Im debating which has best impact for us? Will the second approach show her i care and gain her respect or will she just think she has me on a leash and is ready to pull me in?

Thanks for the help. God do I need it!


----------



## Almostrecovered

top left of the CWI forum is a new thread button

if it's a mobile browser there's a link that says "New?"

if it's tapatalk app on the upper right there's an arrow headed right click that and choose New Topic


----------



## StrangerThanFiction

My bet is that she was sleeping with the OM before, during and after the wedding.


----------



## Acabado

I'm with the above poster. Beyond the stuborness she's displaying I've always suspected more involvement that she'll admit ever. If the OP ever get a full disclosure (unlikely) he's going to be very surprised.


----------



## Tony55

I think at this point it's safe to say that she doesn't respect the marriage and she doesn't respect you. You've pretty much done everything you could to discover, uncover, disrupt and discourage your wife's pursuit of another man and at this point it seems there's nothing else to say. Walk away and don't look back. You don't owe her or her family any explanation. No calls, no texts, no emails; it's over. That also means no revenge, no spite, no continuation of acknowledgement that she even exists any longer. She's a stranger to you. Let her and her memory go.

Good Luck


----------



## YPbPr

Hi all. Loooongg time. I had to come back to the thread to find some information and thought I'd offer up a response. We tried to work on things for most of the remaining year but one day she said she couldn't do it anymore. I can't sit here and say that happened out of blue given the big picture; however, it seemed out of the blue given that things were going well for us.

We can all sit here and talk about why that finally happened but it's not worth it. She has moved out. It's been about a month and I'm good with that. I did everything I could.

The moral of the story here... Listen to what others have to say on this site. Read this thread from start to finish. It's a classic tale here. I appreciate the help I've received from all of you.


----------



## YPbPr

Can someone point me to the HR letter. I can't seem to find it in this thread. It's the letter the BS can send to the AP's company exposing the A on company time, etc.


----------



## iheartlife

Hey there! I was literally thinking about you yesterday.




> To Whom It May Concern: XXXX
> 
> This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.
> 
> (Your wayward spouse name ) and OM/OW (name) are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets.
> (Your wayward spouse name ) and OM/OW (name) are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.
> 
> If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.
> 
> Regards,


Here is one version of that letter, and here is the post it came from (and there's a post that originated it, I'm sure that's around here too).

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html#post520825


Sorry to hear things did not work out, even after you tried. I wonder how many times she will end up getting married when all is said and done. Hope you are able to work things out amicably in terms of the divorce.


----------



## 3putt

YPbPr said:


> Can someone point me to the HR letter. I can't seem to find it in this thread. It's the letter the BS can send to the AP's company exposing the A on company time, etc.


Here's one....



JustUss said:


> Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney--
> 
> *To Whom It May Concern:
> 
> This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.
> 
> WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.
> 
> If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.
> 
> Regards,*


----------



## happyman64

YPbPr said:


> Hi all. Loooongg time. I had to come back to the thread to find some information and thought I'd offer up a response. We tried to work on things for most of the remaining year but one day she said she couldn't do it anymore. I can't sit here and say that happened out of blue given the big picture; however, it seemed out of the blue given that things were going well for us.
> 
> We can all sit here and talk about why that finally happened but it's not worth it. She has moved out. It's been about a month and I'm good with that. I did everything I could.
> 
> The moral of the story here... Listen to what others have to say on this site. Read this thread from start to finish. It's a classic tale here. I appreciate the help I've received from all of you.


Hey Y

I sorry your marriage turned into a bust. Glad you tried.

Good Luck moving on and send that letter.

HM64


----------



## Shaggy

So did the OM never go away then? Reading between the lines did she break NC and hook up with him which caused the sudden change in direction?


----------



## Acabado

I fear affair is back full force


----------

