# Need advice



## Smileevenifithurts

Hello, I'm new and I've never done this before.

I'll start out by explaining my situation, I've been married for 12 years, been together for 14. My wife and i have 3 children together, ages 5 to 10. I have a pretty demanding job, I'm a detective and been in law enforcement for 8 years. My schedule itself can be hard on my wife and family. 

I had to work the 4th of July, my wife decided she wanted to celebrate the 4th with some of her coworker's from her job. I thought that would be awesome. It wasn't until i received a text from her around 12:30am telling me that everyone had left around 8:00pm except for one person, who was a guy. They spent the 4th of july together from 8:00pm until 12:30am. Now, keep in mind we have 3 little kids and he has 2 kids in similar age and they were also over at the house.

I don't think my wife physically cheated on me, but am i wrong to be hurt that she felt it was ok to spend the 4th of July with another guy? This guy i have always had bad feelings about to begin with. We all use to be friends but i always felt like he liked my wife, after this guy broke up with his girlfriend we all stopped talking and hanging out, flash forward about 10 years and he started working with my wife after he got terminated from his job for domestic abuse. I asked my wife why she thought it was ok to have another guy at our house until midnight, she stated it was because they're just friends and were talking. 

I'm a firm believer that most guys are dogs, i believe in having friends of the opposite sex however, i don't believe its acceptable to have a male friend at another married mans house spending a holiday together, especially until midnight. My wife doesn't see it that way though and even after we talked i don't feel any better about the situation. I can't help but wonder whay really was happening, am i not good enough for her? Am i not what shes wanted and she like the attention from a different guy? So many insecurities are coming out that i didn't even know i had and I'm scared its going to ruin my marriage. 

Am i over reacting? Is it ok for a guy to be at my house until midnight, celebrating a holiday with my wife and my kids? A guy i don't even trust anymore...


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## bobert

For some couples that would be acceptable, for others, it wouldn't. That is something that each couple has to decide on and it can also depend on the "friend" in question. Prior to this, did your wife know you had a "bad feeling" about this guy? 

If this is an isolated event, then I'd speak to your wife about it and let her know that you are uncomfortable with it. She should respect how you are feeling and not allow that to happen again in the future, as long as you are being reasonable. 

If you are feeling so unsure about it, can you look through her phone or phone records to see if she has been having way too much contact with this guy?


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## Hoosier

What does your gut say? On here we find that the gut, hair on the back of your neck are amazingly accurate, so dont let it get poo pooed away.


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## Oldtimer

Were your kids up the whole time? I agree with Bobert, speak to your wife and let her know that you are very uncomfortable with a man celebrating a holiday with her and your kids. Yes check on any history of contact. Not wanting to get your hackles up, but if the kids were busy playing or whatever, it doesn’t take much to be a bit naughty in another part of the house. Hopefully she’s got more morals than to risk that. It all falls back on the old trust, but verify.


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## BluesPower

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Hello, I'm new and I've never done this before.
> 
> I'll start out by explaining my situation, I've been married for 12 years, been together for 14. My wife and i have 3 children together, ages 5 to 10. I have a pretty demanding job, I'm a detective and been in law enforcement for 8 years. My schedule itself can be hard on my wife and family.
> 
> I had to work the 4th of July, my wife decided she wanted to celebrate the 4th with some of her coworker's from her job. I thought that would be awesome. It wasn't until i received a text from her around 12:30am telling me that everyone had left around 8:00pm except for one person, who was a guy. They spent the 4th of july together from 8:00pm until 12:30am. Now, keep in mind we have 3 little kids and he has 2 kids in similar age and they were also over at the house.
> 
> I don't think my wife physically cheated on me, but am i wrong to be hurt that she felt it was ok to spend the 4th of July with another guy? This guy i have always had bad feelings about to begin with. We all use to be friends but i always felt like he liked my wife, after this guy broke up with his girlfriend we all stopped talking and hanging out, flash forward about 10 years and he started working with my wife after he got terminated from his job for domestic abuse. I asked my wife why she thought it was ok to have another guy at our house until midnight, she stated it was because they're just friends and were talking.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that most guys are dogs, i believe in having friends of the opposite sex however, i don't believe its acceptable to have a male friend at another married mans house spending a holiday together, especially until midnight. My wife doesn't see it that way though and even after we talked i don't feel any better about the situation. I can't help but wonder whay really was happening, am i not good enough for her? Am i not what shes wanted and she like the attention from a different guy? So many insecurities are coming out that i didn't even know i had and I'm scared its going to ruin my marriage.
> 
> Am i over reacting? Is it ok for a guy to be at my house until midnight, celebrating a holiday with my wife and my kids? A guy i don't even trust anymore...


So you are correct about every single thing you wrote except one... 

Your work schedule has nothing to do with your wife cheating. And yes I would be super surprised if she is not cheating at some level. 

You however, are a detective, so you know to keep YOUR MOUTH SHUT, and your eyes open. 

You need to dig into this. You need to go through her phone, you need to see if she in ON her phone all of the time. 

You need to keep your eyes open. 

And yes, a guy like you describe is a dog. And he is an obiter and sounds like he has been for a while.

Keep your head on a swivel and figure out, quietly, what is going on.


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## MattMatt

@Smileevenifithurts You need to monitor her.


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## sideways

So your wife thinks it's ok to have a guy who was fired from his job for Domestic abuse at your house to to the wee hours of the night (alone with him because the kids were probably sleeping)?


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## StarFires

A year or two ago, I read a story here from a guy whose girlfriend was trying so hard to go meet a male "friend" of hers. Aside from his uncomfortable feeling that something might be going on, if nothing else he knew he didn't like the fact that his girlfriend was going to meet some man she kept claiming was "just a friend" and it would be just the two of them. So, despite her claiming it was perfectly innocent, and he needed her to help him with something, and they were "just friends," he told her "You are going on a date and if you leave this house, we are over."

I'll never forget that story because I absolutely love it when people take charge of their lives and refuse to tolerate the intolerable.



Smileevenifithurts said:


> Am i over reacting? Is it ok for a guy to be at my house until midnight, celebrating a holiday with my wife and my kids? A guy i don't even trust anymore...


I think it's a moot issue at this point since it's in the past and there was no understanding between you regarding this type of thing. But, you definitely should establish an understanding now going forward. If you want, you can tell her "I don't appreciate you doing that because it was totally disrespectful to me, your husband." But add to it "I don't want such a thing to ever happen again in our home, and I would also appreciate it if you never again place yourself alone with another man."

If you say something like this to her, she's going to find all kinds of ways to rebut your statements and repeatedly claim "We are just friends" and "Nothing happened" and "You're really off base on this" and "I can't believe you are accusing me" and all that jazz. But do not respond to ANY of that. Do not defend your statement or defend yourself against what she's saying. What you want to do is simply stand firm. You said what you mean, and you meant what you said.

You said your wife doesn't see it the way you do, but it doesn't matter how she sees it. The only thing that matters is how disrespectful she was to you. So, don't allow her to drag you into any argument about it. Just tell her "None of that matters, and I'm not arguing with you about it. I am asking that you respect my wishes and that is all I have to say on the subject." Then walk away to let her know you mean business and to also let her know that nothing she is saying means a darned thing. You don't need her agreement or approval to be ticked off about her actions. She was disrespectful whether she sees it that way or not. Nobody ever sees anything wrong with their actions because in their mind, they have to believe they are convincing you of their innocence. When you are not convinced, they become angry and start believing their own lies, when what they're really angry about is that they are not being believed.

No woman and no man should ever blindly accept the "we're just friends" nonsense. It's time to start checking her phone calls and texts and emails and social media accounts. For checking calls and texts, you can look on the provider website.



Smileevenifithurts said:


> I'm a firm believer that most guys are dogs.....Am i not what shes wanted and she like the attention from a different guy?


That is a recipe for disaster. The thing is that women can also be dogs and men also like the attention. Even the most faithful spouses like the attention of others of the opposite sex, and both members of the opposite sex go after married people. And this is how so many affairs occur.



Smileevenifithurts said:


> So many insecurities are coming out that i didn't even know i had and I'm scared its going to ruin my marriage.


Don't be silly. Your insecurities prompted by her actions are not what could ruin your marriage. Her actions are what could ruin your marriage if she ever sees this guy again, or if you discover they have been keeping in contact behind your back.

But you do have to get your insecurities under control and not let them show. You have to stand firm on your feelings about this issue and stand firm in the way you handle it. Do handle it (my suggestion above) and don't just sweep it under the rug. It's important for her to know where you stand on the subject. It's also important for her to SEE you standing firm in your conviction. No woman respects a wimpy insecure man, so be careful not to show her your fear about this. You should continue to be cordial and loving toward her, but do show her your strength and not your weakness. Handle it from a posture of firmness like I suggested, and then let the subject drop.


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## Robert22205

Why so late? He should have left after the fireworks.
Did all the kids stay up until 12.30am???
What did they talk about for four hours? Is he asking her for personal advice?

How much contact with him does she have at work? Can he chat her up at work?
Do they go on break or to lunch together?
Do you have a history of being jealous or telling your wife who to be friends with?

Every spouse has a right to feel safe from infidelity. And given this man's history (which your wife is aware of) and not at least texting you, her behavior was a big fail. Why? because your spouse has an obligation to avoid suspicious behavior or any situation that would make your feel unsafe.

It's a big fail but not enough to D or rage about, but certainly enough to complain about - and given his history you have every right to insist on no further contact.

And make sure she understands, that since you do not have a history of jealousy or telling her who to be friends with, hiding further contact (because it might upset you) is evidence that the contact is inappropriately flirty or romantic.

Why? because (although you trust her) given his history, it's a good bet that your wife's behavior on July 4th will encourage this guy to contact her (of course it'll initially be to just talk about the kids/or they're just friends). If you feed a stray dog, it'll come back looking for more.

Finally, you both should read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass.
It's a easy read and based on surveys of couples that experienced infidelity. Some general findings: good people never intended to cheat with the 'friend' - but did, most started pretty much the same, and co-workers are high risk.

After reading this book you will not be accused of over reacting or being jealous or controlling - and she will have a difficult time defending any further contact with this guy.


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## Girl_power

It’s not fun to always be alone because you’re partner is working or doesn’t want to hang out with you. I bet she would much rather be with you, but since you weren’t available she wanted to spend time with friends.


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## OutofRetirement

How many people were invited? How many adults had children 12 or under? My experience is it is a matter of courtesy, politeness, to not overstay. If the party started in the afternoon, then 8 pm would be about the time most people would leave because (1) the children get tired, fall asleep, start being able to behave as they get too tired, etc. and (2) the host, trying to be polite, will not tell you that you should leave, even if it's brought up, unless you're family or close friend. So once the majority start filing out around, say, 7:30 pm, by 8 pm everyone has left. That is the typical experience I've seen.

For one man to stay with a woman, single or married, leaves them open to the perception of something going on. If you are not a jealous type, and this guy in particular gives you the gut that he would want to get inappropriately close to your wife, then at least some other people would have noticed it.

The problem that would bother me is not so much that the guy wanted to stay, but that your wife wanted him to stay. After these parties usually I was tired, being the host, and dealing with the children, so if I had to be polite with a guest (if it is family or a close friend I don't feel the same as having to continue to act as the host) until midnight, when everyone else left at 8, I would be annoyed, at best.

I don't see cheating here. Unless you have more evidence, such as texts, or pre-planned him staying after everyone else has left. I could be wrong, but my experience is that cheating does not happen in a vacuum, very rare is it a one-off. But since they work together, I don't see why this one party should be the big chance to cheat. It may be a beginning of something, or maybe something that has been ongoing, but I don't see it unless you have more to back it up. As a detective, you know there are crimes of opportunity, but I don't see that much in cheating unless there is alcohol, such as a drunken one-night stand.

If they are cheating, you will start to see more signs. If this was a one-off, you may never find out.


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## marcy*

It was not OK for him to stay in your house alone with your wife that long during that time. A little bit longer OK, I would understand, but four hours later, that’s too much. Let her know you are not OK with it if it bothers you. She can have friends over but not that late or at least not alone with one man. There is probably something going on, or just him hitting on her. 
My husband doesn’t want any of friends(male) at our house if he isn’t there. Me alone with a coworker at any hours, gosh I can’t even think about it, divorce is the least I would fear.


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## Tdbo

I don't think at this point she was cheating on you, otherwise she would not have admitted he was there.
However, IMO, it was inappropriate and disrespectful to you.
I've always found that the best policy is to trust your intuition. Therefore, you may want to start doing some checking on this dude. Check her phone records. Perhaps if you have a LEO friend who owes you a favor, have him do some surveillance when you are faced with another situation under similar circumstances.
Also, you need to have a sit down with the wife and express your severe discomfort with the situation. I'm sure that if the tables were turned, and you were doing the same, wife would probably have a problem with it. At a minimum, you are owed an apology and she needs to make the necessary adjustments, so that such a situation does not happen again.


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## DownByTheRiver

You both have good points so you will have to talk it out. Obviously, your job has you away a lot, so she's needing company. They likely are just friends from her end, but I respect your gut feeling about this guy because I have those kind of gut feelings too and I'm usually right. He very well may be a vulture. There's plenty of them around there to pick up easy prey, their friends' exes after a breakup, women who get lonely and want someone to listen to them. 

You need to sit down and talk calmly about it and tell her you know that guy and can't trust him. I think you should also talk to that guy and let him know you don't want him alone with your wife and that you feel he was there way too late and not to do it again. I mean, surely by after midnight the kids were in bed? Or were they still all up watching fireworks that go off at midnight? Because July 4 is a special exception night some places where midnight is when the big fireworks go off, while other places it mostly is all over by then. 

Do those two go do things alone together during the day? I'm trying to get a feel for their friendship. But I agree with you there's every chance he's right there ready to pounce if she gets in a vulnerable mood sometime.

Not sure with your job this is a good way to approach it because she probably doesn't know what you're up to half the time, but you be the judge. Tell her to put the shoe on the other foot and how would she feel if you were at home up until 12:30 with some female who was usually eager to get with guys. Tell her you have to have rules that go both ways. Wait until you're both calm to talk about this. 

If you don't tell her you're going to talk to him, you will soon know how much the confide in each other and whether he took your warning seriously if he lets her know you did. 

By the way, thanks for what you do.


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## DownByTheRiver

You know, you need to also consider if maybe her text was to let you know this guy wasn't leaving and she was ready to go to bed. I mean, you should know if he's the guy who is always the last to leave a party. If so, that is what happened. There's one at every party, you know. The host is ready to go, the rest have politely left at a decent hour, and then there's this one drunk who just stays. I mean, she did text you letting you know he had not gone home. It might have been in hopes you'd tell him to get the hell out for her. Talk to her about it all. It is probably nothing but a needed talk with that guy.


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## BluesPower

Tdbo said:


> I don't think at this point she was cheating on you, otherwise she would not have admitted he was there.
> However, IMO, it was inappropriate and disrespectful to you.
> 
> I've always found that the best policy is to trust your intuition. Therefore, you may want to start doing some checking on this dude. Check her phone records. Perhaps if you have a LEO friend who owes you a favor, have him do some surveillance when you are faced with another situation under similar circumstances.
> Also, you need to have a sit down with the wife and express your severe discomfort with the situation. I'm sure that if the tables were turned, and you were doing the same, wife would probably have a problem with it. At a minimum, you are owed an apology and she needs to make the necessary adjustments, so that such a situation does not happen again.


We don't really know if she is/was/has been cheating on him at all. One way or another. 

One thing we know is that he has a GUT FEELING, and what do we say, "TRUST YOUR GUT", because it is right almost every single time. 

If they have been cheating he will find it on her phone, unless she has a burner...

If anyone thinks that they could not have screwed in the down stairs bath room for a quickie if just foolish...


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## Smileevenifithurts

I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected. 

She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.

She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


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## bobert

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected.
> 
> She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


How long ago were those texts deleted? You can use a recovery software to get some or all of them back but you have to do it quickly for best results.


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## Tdbo

BluesPower said:


> We don't really know if she is/was/has been cheating on him at all. One way or another.
> 
> One thing we know is that he has a GUT FEELING, and what do we say, "TRUST YOUR GUT", because it is right almost every single time.
> 
> If they have been cheating he will find it on her phone, unless she has a burner...
> 
> If anyone thinks that they could not have screwed in the down stairs bath room for a quickie if just foolish...


There are only two people (sans video/audio evidence) that know if she is cheating on him, and that is the wife and the other guy. However, she admitted via text in real time that this other person basically overstayed his welcome. We are all guesstimating at every step of the process, but logic would dictate that if there was something going on between the two of them, she would not be broadcasting that he was there.
If I were the husband, I would not be a happy camper about this situation. It sounds like there may be a need for some parameters and boundaries to be drawn up and enforced. I understand to some degree where the wife is coming from. I'm married to a nurse. I've spent many weekends and holidays by myself, but I've never thrown a get together without my spouse being involved. Should have been something the wife thought of before getting married to a LEO. Her position is kind of like marrying a Minister and BMW'ing that he has to work every Sunday.
One should always trust their intuition. Therefore, OP has some homework to do. He can do some snooping, get into her phone, check records, have an off duty friend do some intelligence work, etc. May be something there, there may not.
"Trust but verify" should become his new motto.


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## Tdbo

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected.
> 
> She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


Sounds like you have some investigating to do. You may want to check social media, as well as run a recovery program on her phone. I'd say she has some explaning to do.


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## BluesPower

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected.
> 
> She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


You need to shut your mouth and do your detective work. Lots of woman get off on having their husband meet their lover. I know it is sick, but it is a thing. 

Now, you do not, for one second believe ANYTHING that she said to you, do you????


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## Lostinthought61

You might want to remind your wife if you get divorce 50% of her business is yours if she used any money that came from your communal accounts.


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## Robert22205

With respect to texting you on July 4th, she had to admit he was there. Because the kids would have told you. Therefore, she doesn't get extra points for disclosure.


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## Robert22205

*She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. *

No adult should need an explaination as to why her excuse is not acceptable to a spouse. 

She's reaching out to him because he's triggering a feeling in her that she enjoys (e.g., feeling young again). 

Sure she probbly feels like she's in control and it will not escalate to an affair - but she's on a slippery slope and risking her marriage unnecessarily. And she's opening the door for this guy to slowly work on her resistance.

Plus their 'friendship' makes you feel unsafe - which should be her primary concern.
People with nothing to hide - hide nothing.

Every spouse has an obligation to make their spouse feel safe from infidelity. Your wife deleting texts is a big fail because it's evidence that the texts are inappropriate. And her texting history puts July 4th in an entirely category. 

In view of your concerns about the OM, she never (never) should have allowed the OM to stay over. She's using the 'kids' as a cover story to see him - and he's using the 'kids' as a cover story to connect with your wife.

She is in an EA. Evidenced by her decision to be deceitful and delete texts. And to have him stay late after she knew you had concerns about this guy. 

Do not except that she deleted the texts (to protect you) to avoid making you angry or jealous. Deleting the texts is evidence that the texts were flirty or suggestive or romantic or she was complaining about her marriage/you - there is no other reason to delete.


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## Robert22205

BTW: texting triggers the same area of the brain as face to face contact...therefore, it's not harmless. People can think they're in love based on just texting.

Understand that you can't compete with the attention/high she gets from the OM. That's another reason she needs to read: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass.

In her head, he's the shiny new corvette and you're the old family van. Everything he says resonates with her in a way that you (as a husband) can't compete. And no spouse should have to compete.

_Sooner than later your best chance to save your marriage is to show zero tolerance for contact with the OM._

As a result of her behavior with the OM, she has the burden of proving there is no further contact. If she can't assure/prove that she's not in contact with him at work, then she'll have to change jobs. This is a consequence of her carrying on a relationship behind your back (texting you after the fact is still 'behind your back').

It's very important that you dont' have a history of controlling who her friends are.
The sooner you state that she must choose between you or the OM - the greater the chance she will chose you.
And she needs to answer immediately without time to think about it.

If she says you're pushing her towards him - then you've already lost her. If this is the first time you've objected to anyone, she should not hesitate in choosing her husband over another man (unless she's already formed an unhealthy connection).

Give her the book at the same time you state your zero tolerance. Things have progressed beyond 'asking her nicely'. You tried that and failed.

If she resists or delays answering, then you have your answer as to her feelings toward the OM and how far their 'friendship' as progressed (better sooner than later).


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## ah_sorandy

BluesPower said:


> You need to shut your mouth and do your detective work. Lots of woman get off on having their husband meet their lover. I know it is sick, but it is a thing.
> 
> Now, you do not, for one second believe ANYTHING that she said to you, do you????


Exactly! Some woman feel less guilty cheating when their husband has met their lover. Weird, I know, but, I saw this first hand with love affairs I witnessed at work over the years.


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## BluesPower

Robert22205 said:


> *She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. *
> 
> No adult should need an explaination as to why her excuse is not acceptable to a spouse.
> 
> She's reaching out to him because he's triggering a feeling in her that she enjoys (e.g., feeling young again).
> 
> Sure she probbly feels like she's in control and it will not escalate to an affair - but she's on a slippery slope and risking her marriage unnecessarily. And she's opening the door for this guy to slowly work on her resistance.
> 
> Plus their 'friendship' makes you feel unsafe - which should be her primary concern.
> People with nothing to hide - hide nothing.
> 
> Every spouse has an obligation to make their spouse feel safe from infidelity. Your wife deleting texts is a big fail because it's evidence that the texts are inappropriate. And her texting history puts July 4th in an entirely category.
> 
> In view of your concerns about the OM, she never (never) should have allowed the OM to stay over. She's using the 'kids' as a cover story to see him - and he's using the 'kids' as a cover story to connect with your wife.
> 
> She is in an EA. Evidenced by her decision to be deceitful and delete texts. And to have him stay late after she knew you had concerns about this guy.
> 
> Do not except that she deleted the texts (to protect you) to avoid making you angry or jealous. Deleting the texts is evidence that the texts were flirty or suggestive or romantic or she was complaining about her marriage/you - there is no other reason to delete.


The only thing I disagree with is that OP Should not HAVE to protect her from the Bid, bad, OM here. 

She is not a child, she knows exactly what she is doing. Fact is, more than likely, she want to get it on with this guy if she has not already. 

This whole thing is shady in every way, while I hope she is not screwing this guys, I kind of think she is... 

Just one problem is that OP post, gets some good truth and puts his head back in the sand. 

Horse to water and that sort of thing...


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## BluesPower

ah_sorandy said:


> Exactly! Some woman feel less guilty cheating when their husband has met their lover. Weird, I know, but, I saw this first hand with love affairs I witnessed at work over the years.


I really don't know what this is about. It is quite sick, however, for some reason my ex's lover ended up in the hospital. 

I am not really sure how that happened, kind of unfortunate for him...


----------



## ah_sorandy

BluesPower said:


> I really don't know what this is about. It is quite sick, however, for some reason my ex's lover ended up in the hospital.
> 
> I am not really sure how that happened, kind of unfortunate for him...


Okay, what did you do to him? LOL


----------



## BluesPower

ah_sorandy said:


> Okay, what did you do to him? LOL


Nothing, I know nothing about any of it. Besides it was about 15 years ago so it does not matter...Statute of Limitations and all of that you know...


----------



## Gabriel

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected.
> 
> She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


Oh Lordy, here we go.

First off....it makes absolutely zero sense that 5 children ages 5-10 years old stayed over and up at the house until 12:30am. I'm a parent and have been in hanging out situations. Either these kids were all asleep, leaving the two adults alone, or, they were very busy with each other watching a movie, playing something, etc. and the two adults were enjoying each other's company so, so much, that they just couldn't bear ending the evening, despite the kids all being up way too late.

Either of those situations is really bad. 

Now the Facebook messenger stuff.

This is a full fledged affair.

If in fact, this story is a real one.


----------



## oldshirt

How many times have your hunches and gut feelings been completely wrong?

Why are you not trusting your gut on this one?


----------



## oldshirt

Also this is not a court of law. 

Neither you nor we need to ‘prove’ beyond a reasonable doubt that his penis entered her vagina or that it didn’t. 

All you have to do is determine whether this is acceptable behavior or not and whether you will tolerate it or not.


----------



## Chaparral

How do you know when he actually left?
Have you talked to your kids to see if they were awake the whole time?
Does your wife know you have always disliked him?
How long have they been working together?
Is he now divorced? Talk to his ex. He has low morals or he would not be abusing his wife?
Were they outside watching fireworks? Were their neighbors watching?
Has your sex life changed in the last couple of years?
Does she have new underwear you haven't seen her wearing?
Has her personal grooming changed?
Does she work regular hours?
Does she go out with friends without you?
Has she started taking better care of herself?
Check the phone bill and run recovery programs on her phone.
Keep your mouth shut.


----------



## oldtruck

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I appreciate all the responses to my original post. A little more information I've collected.
> 
> She has been talking to this guy since February, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing. I told her i wanted to read the text messages from her cell phone but she had deleted all of her messages with everyone but me and her mother. About a month ago she asked me to reach out to him and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated she was just trying to be his friend. I explained to her that guys and girls should be treated differently if you're married or in a relationship. She just can't see where im coming from the deleted text messages makes me wonder what they were talking about. I'll never know the truth or if she actually likes this guy.


not the first WW that tried to hide her OM out in the open as a friend
of the family and of her BH.


----------



## oldtruck

also a bad sign she has deleted everything from her phone


----------



## Kamstel2

Does she delete all texts from everyone or just this guy? If just this guy, then there is a great deal of smoke!!!!

good luck
Stay strong


----------



## ah_sorandy

Kamstel2 said:


> Does she delete all texts from everyone or just this guy? If just this guy, then there is a great deal of smoke!!!!
> 
> good luck
> Stay strong


And where theres smoke, there is someone smoking a cigarette after adulterous sex.


----------



## FoolishOne

Deleting all texts is odd. Who does that? Honest question here.

Someone mentioned recovery software. Might be a good idea but, he mentioned facebook. Doesn't that mess things up a bit? From what I know they are either hard or impossible to recover. Might be worth it for regular texts though.

Check her phone bill if you can. Check for unknown numbers regularly calling in. I believe the carriers can vary about what is recorded. Someone claimed to be a concerned parent who was worried their child was talking to strangers inapropriatly or something like that recently. Worth a try? Up to you. If it's your account should be easier.

However, being on an infidelity website we can tend to see infidelity around every corner and sometimes it's just not there. We should caution ourselves away from thinking the absolute worst of flimsy evidence.

My game plan would be to ascertain if this is just a one off situation or if these two have been communicating more than should be acceptable or even meeting.

She deleted texts. That ups my suspicion. But maybe she thinks she is saving space. You say she deleted EVERYONES messages, correct? I wonder just how much she deletes. If you run recover and get just recent stuff.... She is probably factory resetting her phone.

You just don't have enough evidence or even ultra suspicion behavior yet. YES. She shouldn't be spending four hours with her male coworker by a bonfire at night talking about who know what or doing who knows what.

Put you foot down. Place your boundary and stand firm. Another poster said that it shouldn't matter if she agrees with your reasoning. She is your wife and you are uncomfortable with it. She doesn't have to budge, but she damn well should. What loving spouse has issue with making thier spouse more confident in thier actions?

Obviously this hasn't been a problem before this guy or you would have said something. so why is she suddenly close with this guy and why is she making a stand like this? Is he her special male friend? Some asked if this guy was a tpoic of conversation before the incident and if you had portrayed your distatse or caution about him... because if so, thats a problem. Who deliberately makes friends with a guy thier husband was uncomortable around from the first moment? Reeks of disrespect. If she had the heebees about some woman hanging around you and she was suspicious, I doubt you would become even closer friends with that person.

I kinda think you may have blown your cob of too soon. You probably should have stayed quiet and started watching real close. Stealth is paramount when investigating. A suspect who knows they are being investigated will destroy any and all evidence. They could increase security. Or take a break.

I just remembered you're a cop. Lol.

I'm a wayward wife. I don't have male friends. I have male acquaintances. They get 5 minutes of talk catching up before i politely excuse myself.

My affair started from friendship. It's a slippery slope. An uneducated and uncautious persin finds it more and more easy to drop boundties and make excuses for behavoir they know thier spouse wouldn't appreciate. It happens one flirtatious boundrie push at a time and in small increments.

Tldr.

Don't go insane with suspicion. Keep your head on a swivel and do some good investigating. Maybe lay low and check back in down the line. Set your boundaries. Firm ones.


----------



## Oldtimer

Smile, you doing ok?


----------



## OutofRetirement

Smileevenifithurts said:


> *She has been talking to this guy since February*, using Facebook messenger. She has messaged him multiple times checking in on him and asking how he is doing.
> 
> About a month ago *she asked me to reach out to him* and see if he wanted to come over and hang out, at first i thought it was weird but i believe it was so that she didn't have to sneak behind my back to see him. I confronted her about that, she stated that *she just thought we could all be friends*.
> 
> She denys any attraction towards this guy and stated *she was just trying to be his friend*.


She is cheating or wants to cheat. (1) There is attraction. Or (2) he is pathetic and she feels sorry for him. I am going with (1).

She continually reaches out to him. She wants to be friends with him. Why him? Why is she so needy about this? The guy never reciprocates and invites her to get together, only she does it for him? This ain't normal.

By the way, these posters seem to have been studying infidelity for years. If you give them some info, they'll be able to tell you if it's normal or not. Same as you can figure out if a guy, by his answers, if he is doing something shady or not. Cheaters are as predictable or maybe more than SUV perps.

You probably are aware, based on the brief posting you've written, your wife seems to be chasing after this guy. My opinion, not just related to infidelity, but male-female romance, even guys who are not interested will eventually get "caught" by a woman who is chasing them.

If that is all the info you have so far, all you can do is wait and see. Some people use (probable based on location) illegal voice-activated recorders in the suspected cheater's car, or gps monitoring her locations in her car. In your position, you don't want to roll the dice of you trying that, or what your wife would do if she found you were doing it.

Assuming that your wife is aware of your suspicions, from her denying attraction to him, can you get your wife to agree to stop deleting the messages? You can at least see if she continues to delete after she agreed not to.

I'm also assuming that your children are not close friends with his children, just classmates. If the children were best friends, there might be more closeness between the parents, and that may start with your wife and this guy. But deleted messages usually mean cheating. Your wife deletes everyone but you and her mom, some people do this deleting almost everybody. Is that new for your wife, or she always deleted that way?


----------



## ABHale

Girl_power said:


> It’s not fun to always be alone because you’re partner is working or doesn’t want to hang out with you. I bet she would much rather be with you, but since you weren’t available she wanted to spend time with friends.


To bad it wasn’t “friends”. It was one guy that OP had bad feelings about.


----------



## ABHale

What do you think is going on?

You can ask your wife if you can recover the text on her phone. Her reaction will be priceless.


----------



## 241happyhour

I did something similar to that one time. I live in an awesome neighborhood where all the kids and parents hang out and play and we all get along. My wife was out of town and my neighbor’s husband was in Afghanistan and our kids were playing together. I went up to her house for probably 3-4 hours and talked to her while the kids played. I never thought anything about it but when I told my wife what I did she didn’t like it. She didn’t get mad but she turned the scenario around and said what would I have thought if she did the same thing. She was right—I wouldn’t have liked it one bit. I guess my point is that it’s NOT OKAY. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Deleting messages doesn't mean anything. That's more down to organization. I delete all that stuff as soon as I've answered it. I don't like cluttered inboxes of any type. So that's no proof. 

You're going to have to talk to her some more. Maybe she wanted you to invite him over because he was hinting to come over and she wasn't comfortable him coming over when you weren't there. This whole thing could be about him being pushy or something.


----------



## Robert22205

You've been married 12 years and you're not controlling or jealous.

This is the first time you've expressed concerns (you were polite and not accusing her) about letting/encouraging another man to get too close.

Certainly there are other people for your wife to be friends with.

1 - Once she learned that you were not comfortable with the OM, why did she continue and actually escalate the friendship?

2 - If you wife wants you to be happily married to her, why wouldn't she immediately drop the OM?

IMO your wife does not fully understand that she can not be friends with the OM and remain married to you. You asked nicely and were not only ignored but the relationship escalated. 

Unfortunately, this has escalated too far for her to now see him less and just be 'friends'. She contaminated what might have been just a friendship by chasing him and spending too much private time with him - and consequently all personal contact must stop. She must now go 100% no personal contact - if she wants to be married to you.

Therefore, the sooner she realizes that she must choose the OM or her marriage (with no middle ground) the sooner you can get your life back (and feel safe from infidelity).

Finally, Under the circumstances, IMO, any reluctance (for any reason) to dropping the OM is evidence that it's more than a casual friendship.


----------



## Smileevenifithurts

Thank you for your response, you all have been giving me some great advice/feedback!

I wanted to update everyone of my situation. I was able to recover her actual text messages that she deleted and im thankful there was nothing sexual however, multiple different times she messages him in the morning checking to see how he is doing. Some friendly flirting and thats all. 

I also found a conversation with one of her best friends, she talks about how she feels like this guy is a brother to her but i don't understand that at all, we all knew each other but that was 10 years ago, how does one feel like a good friend brother in just 5 months of secretly talking?

There was a conversation that the two had, when she ended the conversation she said, "smily face I hope you have a good day!" And he responds, "thank you, you too" she responds, "Thank you!!! With a smily face". Why is it i feel thats too much excitement? Like when i have a conversation with a friend its a simple bye, like ttyl, or later. 

We have been talking a lot, she told me she doesn't regret becoming this guys friend but that she does regret that it hurt me in the process, i keep asking her why she even felt the need to do it, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends, who in there right mind would want to be friends with the one you think your wife likes? 

I also found a conversation where she admits to her best friend that "i think ryan just needs a friend to vent to, and i became that". Why? Why would she want to be a shoulder to lean on for another guy? Im having a difficult time moving forward but we have 3 kids, i want to try and fix this because if it is me and my insecurities then i want to be told that so i can work on them and not be a jealous husband. My feelings are telling me she had an emotional affair on me but i want a counselor to tell me that. 

We began marriage counseling july 20th. Thank you all for the support and advice i don't think you'll ever know how much it has helped me during this hard time.


----------



## GC1234

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Hello, I'm new and I've never done this before.
> 
> I'll start out by explaining my situation, I've been married for 12 years, been together for 14. My wife and i have 3 children together, ages 5 to 10. I have a pretty demanding job, I'm a detective and been in law enforcement for 8 years. My schedule itself can be hard on my wife and family.
> 
> I had to work the 4th of July, my wife decided she wanted to celebrate the 4th with some of her coworker's from her job. I thought that would be awesome. It wasn't until i received a text from her around 12:30am telling me that everyone had left around 8:00pm except for one person, who was a guy. They spent the 4th of july together from 8:00pm until 12:30am. Now, keep in mind we have 3 little kids and he has 2 kids in similar age and they were also over at the house.
> 
> I don't think my wife physically cheated on me, but am i wrong to be hurt that she felt it was ok to spend the 4th of July with another guy? This guy i have always had bad feelings about to begin with. We all use to be friends but i always felt like he liked my wife, after this guy broke up with his girlfriend we all stopped talking and hanging out, flash forward about 10 years and he started working with my wife after he got terminated from his job for domestic abuse. I asked my wife why she thought it was ok to have another guy at our house until midnight, she stated it was because they're just friends and were talking.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that most guys are dogs, i believe in having friends of the opposite sex however, i don't believe its acceptable to have a male friend at another married mans house spending a holiday together, especially until midnight. My wife doesn't see it that way though and even after we talked i don't feel any better about the situation. I can't help but wonder whay really was happening, am i not good enough for her? Am i not what shes wanted and she like the attention from a different guy? So many insecurities are coming out that i didn't even know i had and I'm scared its going to ruin my marriage.
> 
> Am i over reacting? Is it ok for a guy to be at my house until midnight, celebrating a holiday with my wife and my kids? A guy i don't even trust anymore...


I would agree with you, she should not have been with this one guy until midnight even if the kids were there. She should have asked him to leave at 8, like everyone else did. Especially if you don't trust him. Does your wife know you don't trust him/suspect him of liking her? Also, it seems that your working hours/lack of time together may be getting to her, so she subconsciously/unknowingly is seeking companionship elsewhere. It's a slippery slope. Hopefully, if you continue to talk to her about it, she'll get the picture.


----------



## BluesPower

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Thank you for your response, you all have been giving me some great advice/feedback!
> 
> I wanted to update everyone of my situation. I was able to recover her actual text messages that she deleted and im thankful there was nothing sexual however, multiple different times she messages him in the morning checking to see how he is doing. Some friendly flirting and thats all.
> 
> I also found a conversation with one of her best friends, she talks about how she feels like this guy is a brother to her but i don't understand that at all, we all knew each other but that was 10 years ago, how does one feel like a good friend brother in just 5 months of secretly talking?
> 
> There was a conversation that the two had, when she ended the conversation she said, "smily face I hope you have a good day!" And he responds, "thank you, you too" she responds, "Thank you!!! With a smily face". Why is it i feel thats too much excitement? Like when i have a conversation with a friend its a simple bye, like ttyl, or later.
> 
> We have been talking a lot, she told me she doesn't regret becoming this guys friend but that she does regret that it hurt me in the process, i keep asking her why she even felt the need to do it, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends, who in there right mind would want to be friends with the one you think your wife likes?
> 
> I also found a conversation where she admits to her best friend that "i think ryan just needs a friend to vent to, and i became that". Why? Why would she want to be a shoulder to lean on for another guy? Im having a difficult time moving forward but we have 3 kids, i want to try and fix this because if it is me and my insecurities then i want to be told that so i can work on them and not be a jealous husband. My feelings are telling me she had an emotional affair on me but i want a counselor to tell me that.
> 
> We began marriage counseling july 20th. Thank you all for the support and advice i don't think you'll ever know how much it has helped me during this hard time.


Honestly, if everything you have found out, is really true, well you still have a problem.

A married women (or in a committed relationship) does not do this with another man, they just don't.

What I fear is that you have the smallest tip of the iceberg, and you are so sure of yourself that you are not going to look for anything further.

So I guess you checked the phone bill and there are no "other numbers" that she is talking to?

You know she is not using one of the cheaters apps on her phone, WhatsApp and several others, the auto delete messages and you cannot recover?

Let me out it in perspective, if the above that you wrote, is actually true, the you should go buy a power ball ticket and you should fully expect to win it all.. Because you must be the luckiest man in the world...


----------



## Robert22205

I strongly suggest you guys read "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass.

Is she refusing to go NC with Ryan - and therefore you're going to MC? 

If so, why did she refuse to go NC?

Unless you have a history of being jealous, then you are not a jealous husband - and it doesn't matter what a therapist says. It's about you feeling safe from infidelity (something you both want).

Don't be surprised if the therapist says you have to trust your wife to manage her relationship with the OM. Unfortunately, the downside is an EA/PA (your family). That's a lot to risk for just some guy ...

Unless you have a history of being jealous, any resistance on her part is a sign that the 'brother/sister' relationship is equal to or greater than her bond with you.


----------



## Yeswecan

Need to set boundaries. Also, much of this could have been avoided if your W from the beginning said she was talking to OM and what it was about. This is what FRIENDS do if she wanted you all to be friends. Apparently your W did not want you all to be friends. Keeping it a secret is not the correct path as you have found out. Your W is in the wrong here keeping a secret. Marriage is open book. There is no privacy unless it is a bathroom break. Your W needs to understand the secretiveness has created distrust. Your W needs to repair that. And to add, state unequivocally that you do not share you W with other men. If this OM needs a fricking shoulder to lean on find a man to do that.


----------



## Robert22205

Read up on EAs prior to your visit with the MC. It's critical that you be prepared in advance. Do not assume the therapist will make this all go away or is an expert on EA. Ask your therapist how they define an EA and what the symptoms are.

Some therapists do not believe in EAs or set the bar so high that you can never identify it.

You may need to disagree (in an informed manner) with the therapist by quoting other sources in order to get the therapist to admit that it's just his opinion. Because ultimately, both spouses need to feel safe in a marriage.

You can google this for more information.

In a Chapman University study earlier this year, researchers found 65% of heterosexual women and 46% of heterosexual men were likely to be more upset by emotional infidelity than sexual infidelity.

14 telltale signs of an emotional affair:

*1. You can’t stop thinking about the person.*

If you can’t get somebody off your mind, it’s likely the relationship is starting to drift outside of friendship. If he or she is the first person you think about when you wake up or the last person you think about at night, romantic feelings may be developing.
*2. You find yourself comparing the person to your partner.*

When you find yourself comparing a person to your partner, it’s almost as if you are sizing them up as a potential significant other. Comparing your partner to someone else may create conflict in your relationship, particularly if you are developing a close relationship with that person.
*3. The time you spend together is increasing.*

If you find that you are spending more and more time with a friend or co-worker—so much so that you end up spending less time with your partner—you might want to pause and contemplate the nature of your relationship.

Maybe you don’t cancel on your partner to spend time with this person, but if you find that you drop everything and cancel on other friends for one particular person, you might want to ask yourself what makes them so special.
*4. You find yourself sharing intimate details.*

Intimate information is usually reserved for our closest relationships. The more you share with someone, the closer you become. This can become problematic if you find yourself sharing details that you haven’t shared with your partner.
*5. You hide the relationship from your partner.*

If you feel like you have to hide something, then you probably consider it inappropriate on some level. If you are afraid your partner won’t understand the relationship or will feel jealous, then they might actually have a reason to feel that way.
*6. You dress up before you see the person.*

When you start planning what you are going to wear or spending extra time on your appearance before you see someone, it may prove you are making a considerable effort to leave a good impression. If you are dressing in hopes that the other person will find you attractive, you may want to stop and question your motives, as they may not be as innocent as you think.
*7. Intimacy with your partner decreases.*

If you find you are suddenly sharing less intimate details with your partner and more with another person, you might be crossing into an emotional affair. Similarly, if you and your partner are less physically intimate than you were in the past and you find yourself daydreaming of intimacy with someone else rather than feeling sexual desire for your partner, there may be potential for an emotional affair.If you find yourself on the verge of an emotional affair, keeping an open line of communication with your partner is often an effective first step in addressing the situation.
*8. You share frustrations about your partner.*

It may not be appropriate to discuss your relationship difficulties with someone else, particularly with someone who might be a romantic interest. If you find yourself complaining to a friend or co-worker about your partner, consider talking with a therapist instead.
*9. You really understand each other. {e.g. Ryan is like a brother}*

You feel like the other person “gets” you. You have a lot in common, and your life paths are similar. You’ve never met someone who understands you in this way, and you think you have a unique connection. If that is the case, you may be unknowingly having an emotional affair.
*10. You start contacting each other outside of “friendship” hours. {in your wife's case outside of business hours}*

If you are secretly texting, emailing, or calling each other into the wee hours of the night, there’s a good chance your relationship has gone beyond the scope of a typical friendship.
*11. They give you butterflies.*

When you start getting that starry-eyed, butterflies-in-the-stomach feeling for someone other than your partner, you are at risk of emotional infidelity. If a glance, slight touch, or phone call leaves you with that warm fuzzy feeling, then you may be feeling a romantic attraction to that person.
*12. It is difficult to concentrate when the other person is around.*

Difficulty concentrating can be a normal part of human sexual arousal. When you start to develop an infatuation for someone, the sexual attraction can cloud your thinking as well as your judgment. If you lose track of time when you’re together or find that you’re more forgetful, then the relationship may no longer be strictly a friendship.
*13. You start having fantasies or dreams.*

If you start fantasizing about what it would be like to touch this person or start having romantic dreams about them, this may be a sign from your unconscious that you are developing romantic feelings.
*14. You would be upset if the situation were reversed.*

How would you feel if your partner had this type of friendship with someone else? If you would be upset about it, then that may be an indication that your behavior is inappropriate and you are becoming emotionally unfaithful to your partner.


----------



## sokillme

sideways said:


> So your wife thinks it's ok to have a guy who was fired from his job for Domestic abuse at your house to to the wee hours of the night (alone with him because the kids were probably sleeping)?


Forget your wife OP WHY ARE YOU OK WITH THIS?!


----------



## Robert22205

I think you should think in terms of what you want. For example, NC outside of the office.

IMO, she has unconsciously allowed their friendship to become contaminated (at a minimum on the part of the OM).

As a consequence, at a minimum, she needs to break it off entirely outside of the office (and no texts or calls or group activities with him when you're not present).


----------



## sokillme

Get the book "Not just friends" and give it to her.

This is a slippery slop. Most people don't think it's appropriate for a married women of 3 young kids to be best friends and hanging out with other men on holidays while none stop texting at other times.

That is exactly how affairs start.


----------



## manfromlamancha

It doesn't matter what your wife thinks this is at this stage. You do know the nature of many men like this and he was almost certainly fishing. He needs to be warned off.


----------



## Gabriel

Sounds like nothing has happened YET, but it's absolutely a dangerous situation and must be nipped in the bud, now.

The "he's like a brother" is very likely defending herself to her friend, like, hey, wife, you don't have feelings for this guy at all, do you? Oh, no, he's like a brother.

It's only a matter of time before this goes bad for you. I mean, you could invite the guy to hang with just you sometime - see how your wife reacts. Hi honey, Jim and I are heading out for a beer. Be back later. 

Then watch her phone.....

And while out with Jim (maybe on beer #3), you can say to him, "Sooooo, you were over pretty late on the 4th of July. Gotta say, thought that is a little unusual. Especially since I was out of town." Check his reaction.


----------



## Smileevenifithurts

Gabriel said:


> Sounds like nothing has happened YET, but it's absolutely a dangerous situation and must be nipped in the bud, now.
> 
> The "he's like a brother" is very likely defending herself to her friend, like, hey, wife, you don't have feelings for this guy at all, do you? Oh, no, he's like a brother.
> 
> It's only a matter of time before this goes bad for you. I mean, you could invite the guy to hang with just you sometime - see how your wife reacts. Hi honey, Jim and I are heading out for a beer. Be back later.
> 
> Then watch her phone.....
> 
> And while out with Jim (maybe on beer #3), you can say to him, "Sooooo, you were over pretty late on the 4th of July. Gotta say, thought that is a little unusual. Especially since I was out of town." Check his reaction.


He has already been confronted, which is how i was able to read the texts messages that she deleted. I have to admit that he was very remorseful and apologetic. He was even about to cry and told me he never had any intentions on making things the way they currently are. I honestly felt he was more sympathetic and showed more empathy than my own wife, he didn't defend himself or his actions. 

Which leads me to believe it was mainly all my wife.


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## sokillme

Personally I don't think you should struggle with what you did at all. You did exactly what any self respecting spouse would do. You told her your boundaries and now you can see if she follows them. 

Don't be too nice.


----------



## MattMatt




----------



## Tdbo

Smileevenifithurts said:


> He has already been confronted, which is how i was able to read the texts messages that she deleted. I have to admit that he was very remorseful and apologetic. He was even about to cry and told me he never had any intentions on making things the way they currently are. I honestly felt he was more sympathetic and showed more empathy than my own wife, he didn't defend himself or his actions.
> 
> Which leads me to believe it was mainly all my wife.


I hope you screen shotted those and saved those for future reference.
I agree with your synopsis.
Boundaries and consequences are needed for her.
Is he still going to contact her outside of work, or is he so embarrassed that he is going to exit stage left?


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## DownByTheRiver

I completely believe her when she says she just feels like he's a brother. But that doesn't mean he wasn't having more feelings or something like that so I'm really glad you talked to him and got it out in the open because now you can set firm boundaries. And very glad you're in marriage counseling. 

I have to say I was chuckling a little at one of your last post that you couldn't understand why she would bother talking to him. That's just the difference between being a man and a woman. Not that were all alike, but women can be friends with men all day long without it meaning anything else. Women are chatty and they're closer with their friends than a lot of men are with their friends. 

You're going to get past this because there wasn't much to it, but that doesn't mean you were wrong to need to get to the bottom of it. And now it will be easy to set boundaries. Hopefully by the time you're finished with marriage counseling you'll understand that women like to chit chat with friends and don't care if they're male or female and sometimes are maybe a bit naive what it could get started, but it certainly does not mean she's attracted to him or would do anything. Not if she sees him as a brother. There's no reason for her to lie to her girlfriends about that. Girlfriends tell each other everything. 

Try to put it behind you once you work out the details.


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## Tdbo

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Thank you for your response, you all have been giving me some great advice/feedback!
> 
> I wanted to update everyone of my situation. I was able to recover her actual text messages that she deleted and im thankful there was nothing sexual however, multiple different times she messages him in the morning checking to see how he is doing. Some friendly flirting and thats all.
> 
> I also found a conversation with one of her best friends, she talks about how she feels like this guy is a brother to her but i don't understand that at all, we all knew each other but that was 10 years ago, how does one feel like a good friend brother in just 5 months of secretly talking?
> 
> There was a conversation that the two had, when she ended the conversation she said, "smily face I hope you have a good day!" And he responds, "thank you, you too" she responds, "Thank you!!! With a smily face". Why is it i feel thats too much excitement? Like when i have a conversation with a friend its a simple bye, like ttyl, or later.
> 
> We have been talking a lot, she told me she doesn't regret becoming this guys friend but that she does regret that it hurt me in the process, i keep asking her why she even felt the need to do it, she stated that she just thought we could all be friends, who in there right mind would want to be friends with the one you think your wife likes?
> 
> I also found a conversation where she admits to her best friend that "i think ryan just needs a friend to vent to, and i became that". Why? Why would she want to be a shoulder to lean on for another guy? Im having a difficult time moving forward but we have 3 kids, i want to try and fix this because if it is me and my insecurities then i want to be told that so i can work on them and not be a jealous husband. My feelings are telling me she had an emotional affair on me but i want a counselor to tell me that.
> 
> We began marriage counseling july 20th. Thank you all for the support and advice i don't think you'll ever know how much it has helped me during this hard time.


It's absolutely not you, it's her.
At best, it's sketchy. If it was so above board, why was she so secretive about it.
As you noted in another post, even the guy she is texting can see the inappropriateness of it.
It was well on its way to becoming an emotional affair, if it wasn't already.
Accept none of her BS. She needs to know that you will walk if things are not corrected to your satisfaction.
She needs to know that she has severely damaged her trust with you, and it is going to take time and a lot of effort on her part to earn it back.
I hope you vetted the therapist. I agree with both of you reading the book "Not Just Friends."
You have done an excellent job of handling yourself here. You have handled this like a champ. You may have just saved your marriage.


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## ABHale

Don’t let your guard down with this guy. Read BFF’s thread to learn why.

Never stay for the kids. It can hurt them in the long run. 

Best of luck


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## colingrant

In a nutshell, I think she had an attraction to this guy. A respectful, low key attraction, but one nonetheless. He sounds innocent, but that's the problem. Affairs typically involved one or sometimes two innocent people, who loses their footing and next thing you know they're flying down the slippery slope. 

Your wife thought she was in control, but a few shared experiences and innocent, connecting dialogue and it's underway. Next thing you know, she's wearing slightly higher heels, and taking 10 more minutes to get ready for work. From there, where it goes is anyone's guess, but it's typically not good though. This stuff is predictable as hell. 

I'll tell you what though. I'd possibly be in this situation right now if it weren't for sites like this one where you read of so many situations, you know exactly what stuff looks and feels like and can nip stuff in the bud.


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## ah_sorandy

Yeap, this guy hung around with your wife, after the others were gone, in the hopes of getting some tail. JMHO.

The million dollar question is, did he get any?

You need to put your detective skills to good use on your wife.


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## Robert22205

Has she voluntarily ended all personal contact with Ryan?

Judge her by her behavior not her words (excuses, explanations, promises). 

If she has no strong emotional connection to Ryan and is truly remorseful about ‘hurting’ you, she’d be proactive and voluntarily be NC with Ryan. 

She’d also be apologizing every day in every way. She’d be doing back flips to make it up to you and make you feel safe from infidelity - and asking you what she can do to fix it.


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## Robert22205

*He was even about to cry and told me he never had any intentions on making things the way they currently are. I honestly felt he was more sympathetic and showed more empathy than my own wife, he didn't defend himself or his actions.*

Was Ryan’s ‘emotional/sympathetic’ reaction when confronted consistent with what you know about him? 
Don’t let your guard down with respect to Ryan. 

My personal experience (as well as many others) is that they often affair down. Last year we had a navy seal who’s (surgeon) wife had an affair with a clerk she met in a shoe store (divorced, 3 kids, absolutely no physical, intellectual, character or career comparison to her husband). 

There’s an expectation based on experience that they always affair down (of course there’s exceptions). 

Why? because it’s not really about the OM. It’s about what ‘need’ he fulfills for your wife. And in order for her to be a safe life partner she needs to dig deep and identify that need or she’ll get pulled in by some other guy. 

IMO, when you put a spotlight on Ryan (i.e., confronted him) his reaction was basically to admit that his relationship with a married woman was inappropriate (and he’d already interpreted her attention as maybe leading to sex). 

Although he was sympathetic/empathetic – that didn’t stop him. Judge him by his actions.

Like most single guys in his situation (limited dating prospects: divorced w/kids & little or no money to date) he went along for the ride because it was easy and he had nothing to lose.


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## MattMatt

Ryan sounds like the kind of person who gets what he wants by being overly emotional. His mom's lap over his brother, the extra piece of pie, the nicest seat at the table, the other man's wife... Yeah. Ryan needs monitoring.


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## farsidejunky

Smile:

While confronting the OM was bold and reaped benefits, he is not the problem. 

Your problem is your spouse. 

I don't buy for a second that this wasn't a budding emotional affair...and your wife (from the sounds of things) was all in.

The excuse that he needed someone to talk to? Bovine excrement. That was her rationalizing to anyone willing to listen. In other words, convincing herself through convincing others. 

At this point, it is fair to tell her the only acceptable outcome for you is no contact. Her reaction to this will tell you much. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Gabriel

Women are sometimes way too naive about this kind of thing, see no harm, no slope before it's too late. They tend to be more nurturing and talkative by nature. 

Given you live in a great neighborhood with all these kids playing and such, Ryan likely realized he very nearly jeopardized/ruined the whole dynamic and got upset at what almost happened. Maybe is even afraid he already has.

You did the right thing. You'll always have your antennae up now. Your wife sounds like she enjoys being social and meeting friends, female or male, and some men can be predatory and see that as an opening for some action. Not saying Ryan did this but the next guy might be more aggressive to your wife's friendly/open cadence.


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## NextTimeAround

One thing a host can do, especially when the guests leave en masse, is to say to the stragglers, "Guess that's the end of the evening."

I would think a single man surrounded by 5 little witnesses would not want to take his chances.


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## Robert22205

Ryan's sensitivity, vulnerability and neediness has probably worked with women in the past because they lower their guard and see him as a harmless nice guy who needs their shoulder to lean on vs a guy on the make. 

IMO, the question is: what unconscious 'need' does your wife have that this type of guy fulfills? For example, maybe he makes her feel: young again, smart/clever, motherly, important/needed .... or maybe she unconsciously enjoys male attention in a situation where she feels in control (no sex).

With respect to her seeing him as a 'brother'. That's an insult to a real brother sister relationship based on years of shared history, trust, and reciprocated help. She doesn't really know this man. 

Any 'special' or unique emotional connection with another man (regardless of the politically correct label she applies)
is a potential wedge/gap between her and her husband.


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## Yeswecan

Smileevenifithurts said:


> He has already been confronted, which is how i was able to read the texts messages that she deleted. I have to admit that he was very remorseful and apologetic. He was even about to cry and told me he never had any intentions on making things the way they currently are. I honestly felt he was more sympathetic and showed more empathy than my own wife, he didn't defend himself or his actions.
> 
> Which leads me to believe it was mainly all my wife.


Set your boundaries. That's it. Stand firm.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Gabriel said:


> Women are sometimes way too naive about this kind of thing, see no harm, no slope before it's too late. They tend to be more nurturing and talkative by nature.


That's what husbands TELL themselves all the time. That way, they don't have to face the fact that their wife isn't as devoted to them 24/7 as they'd _like _to believe, and that way they don't have to face the fact that she IS attracted to someone else and is willing to see where it goes. A lot of men simply can't accept that truth so they demonize the man as the predator. I see it done all the time.

They tell themselves their poor, innocent wives are too _naive_ to know they're being 'preyed upon' in order to make themselves feel better, and then they go scare off the big bad wolf who's been trying to 'take advantage' of their_ naive_ little wives

I see that nonsense written by men here all the time. I guess whatever gets them through the night.

The need to assuage one's ego in these cases usually comes at the cost of removing all *accountability* from their guilty wive's shoulders. Denial is a powerful thing.


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## farsidejunky

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's what husbands TELL themselves all the time. That way, they don't have to face the fact that their wife isn't as devoted to them 24/7 as they'd _like _to believe, and that way they don't have to face the fact that she IS attracted to someone else and is willing to see where it goes. A lot of men simply can't accept that truth so they demonize the man as the predator. I see it done all the time.
> 
> They tell themselves their poor, innocent wives are too _naive_ to know they're being 'preyed upon' in order to make themselves feel better, and then they go scare off the big bad wolf who's been trying to 'take advantage' of their_ naive_ little wives
> 
> I see that nonsense written by men here all the time. I guess whatever gets them through the night.
> 
> The need to assuage one's ego in these cases usually comes at the cost of removing all *accountability* from their guilty wive's shoulders. Denial is a powerful thing.


QFT. 

Projection at it's worst.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Gabriel

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's what husbands TELL themselves all the time. That way, they don't have to face the fact that their wife isn't as devoted to them 24/7 as they'd _like _to believe, and that way they don't have to face the fact that she IS attracted to someone else and is willing to see where it goes. A lot of men simply can't accept that truth so they demonize the man as the predator. I see it done all the time.
> 
> They tell themselves their poor, innocent wives are too _naive_ to know they're being 'preyed upon' in order to make themselves feel better, and then they go scare off the big bad wolf who's been trying to 'take advantage' of their_ naive_ little wives
> 
> I see that nonsense written by men here all the time. I guess whatever gets them through the night.
> 
> The need to assuage one's ego in these cases usually comes at the cost of removing all *accountability* from their guilty wive's shoulders. Denial is a powerful thing.


In some cases, sure. But in my own life and what I've seen happen to friends, and time and time again on TAM, we've seen the story of the wife who claims they are not getting enough attention. And they crave more interaction and socialization. And what starts as an innocent filling of a need ends up turning into something more. Something they never intended to happen. 

Whereas men usually seek it out.

That doesn't mean women can't be predatory, or purposely want an affair.

Trust me, I didn't let my wife off the hook.


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## oldshirt

Gabriel said:


> Women are sometimes way too naive about this kind of thing, see no harm, no slope before it's too late. They tend to be more nurturing and talkative by nature.
> 
> Given you live in a great neighborhood with all these kids playing and such, Ryan likely realized he very nearly jeopardized/ruined the whole dynamic and got upset at what almost happened. Maybe is even afraid he already has.
> 
> You did the right thing. You'll always have your antennae up now. Your wife sounds like she enjoys being social and meeting friends, female or male, and some men can be predatory and see that as an opening for some action. Not saying Ryan did this but the next guy might be more aggressive to your wife's friendly/open cadence.


Women aren’t naive. 

If we’re going to make sweeping statements about women’s social and interpersonal perceptiveness, then I will challenge that women are actually many times more perceptive than men. 
If anyone is naive or have things go right over their heads, it is men.

Every female on the planet has been hit on, flirted with and schmoozed by males since they put on their first training bra. They know darn well when men are jockeying for position to get into their knickers. 

They either chose to go along with it or shut it down and walk away. 

We know which choice the OP’s wife was making here now don’t we. 

Whether they actually got to the downstroke yet or not, we may never know for sure. 

But to suggest that she was naive and didn’t know what was happening, is what is naive. She knew fully well and was complicit.


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## oldshirt

Gabriel said:


> In some cases, sure. But in my own life and what I've seen happen to friends, and time and time again on TAM, we've seen the story of the wife who claims they are not getting enough attention. And they crave more interaction and socialization. And what starts as an innocent filling of a need ends up turning into something more. Something they never intended to happen.
> 
> Whereas men usually seek it out.
> 
> That doesn't mean women can't be predatory, or purposely want an affair.
> 
> Trust me, I didn't let my wife off the hook.



That’s not naïveté. 

Even if it is them seeking attention and social interaction, they are fully aware of the sexual dynamics and attractions taking place.

Even if they don’t initially intend to have sex, they are fully aware of the man’s attraction and desire and are using that for whatever their agenda is. 

If they do change their minds and decide to get down, it is a fully informed and aware choice. 

I would also venture that a woman is not going to be spending quality personal time alone with a man unless she does have a some kind of baseline attraction unless she is some kind of gold digger or con woman going after money or something.

There are no naive, innocent victims in these situations.


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## Taxman

There was a fellow at my wife's former workplace. He was overly friendly, and gave me the willies. Thank goodness his attentions did not turn to my wife. She, at the time was the corporate controller, and was in charge of the office staff. This nudnick turned his attentions to the boss' private secretary. Problematically, this woman and her husband were friends of my wife and I. I get a running commentary after work. I say to my wife that she should get ready to bring the hammer down on one if not both of these people. She says that technically neither of them are under her command. Both are the boss' problem. I tell her that she needs to drop a bug in the boss ear, otherwise, the whole thing could blow up in your face and the boss face. Within a week, the idiot made his move. My wife picked up on it, two of them went out to lunch together, which was quite out of the ordinary. Luckily my wife was on high alert and saw the two walk out to his car and drive away. Wife had one of the plant guys watch where they headed, and then she ordered him to follow. They didn't stop at the golden arches, he saw them go into the Holiday Inn. (I'm an accountant and wasting $200 +on a quickie really offends me). So, my wife calls me and tells me it is going down. I tell her that she should be conferring with the corporate lawyers and the boss. So while the two fools are out, lawyers advise that my wife should recommend termination. I spent the afternoon wondering if I should advise the BH. At three, I gave him the heads up. Told him that his WW would be coming home without employment. Fellow at the office was angered that he had lost his job over a lunch break quickie and made all sorts of threats. My wife informed him that WW's husband was made aware of the tryst. She told me that thought had not quite occurred to him. When the realization hit, suddenly this twit got real nervous, then he basically emptied his desk into a garbage bag, hopped into his car, and got out of Dodge. Upshot of the whole thing? WW was terminated. She and her husband were separated for six months. She quiely asked my wife for a reference. We talked it over, and I voiced my concerns that if the situation would arise that the recommendation was not completely Kosher, it would come back to hurt my wife's credibility. As accountants, credibility is everything. WW had a tough time finding new employment. Her ex found a new gf. The result of all of this was that my wife ended up writing a new section for the employee handbook. I said I could say it in one sentence. DON'T. Dammit.


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## Robert22205

Does Ryan have a girlfriend? Is your wife the only woman that he spends time with?

I suggest the next time (and every time) she refers to Ryan as her ‘brother’ you need to immediately object to the use of that term.

Why? because the term falsely characterizes/paints the friendship on a moral high ground that is also positive, inherently good for your wife - and non-threatening to her or you.

First, there is no moral high ground here, she is falsely claiming a cultural (perhaps biological) assumption that she would never even think about having sex (no such taboo applies here and at a minimum she can’t speak for Ryan).

Second, IMO Ryan’s reaction (when confronted) confirmed your suspicion that he knew the relationship appeared to be inappropriate.


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## Smileevenifithurts

So my wife and i had actually opened up and had a great talk, it was until i told her i confronted Ryan. 

She asked me what i told him, i told her that i believed my wife liked him, she got mad and said now things will be awkward for her at work. The past two days she has been super down and upset towards me for putting her in that situation. I feel bad for her but i can't help but get mad at her because i didn't put her in any situation, if she didn't have an EA then i wouldn't have felt like i needed to dig for the truth.

I feel like we're back on bad terms, again and in turn that triggers all these damn emotions i felt when she cheated.


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## oldshirt

Smileevenifithurts said:


> So my wife and i had actually opened up and had a great talk, it was until i told her i confronted Ryan.
> 
> She asked me what i told him, i told her that i believed my wife liked him, she got mad and said now things will be awkward for her at work. The past two days she has been super down and upset towards me for putting her in that situation. I feel bad for her but i can't help but get mad at her because i didn't put her in any situation, if she didn't have an EA then i wouldn't have felt like i needed to dig for the truth.
> 
> I feel like we're back on bad terms, again and in turn that triggers all these damn emotions i felt when she cheated.


Of course she's mad, People don't like consequences. You screwed up her fun with her BF. 

People in affairs also go through mourning when their affair is disrupted.


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## Robert22205

I'm sorry that things went South but not for the reason you think (i.e., your wife is angry with you).

It's important that you don't back down. There's a saying based on a lot of experience that: you need to be willing to risk your marriage in order to save it.She needs to know this behavior (whether she intended an affair or not) is non negotiable - and you don't need to have proof that will stand up in court.

I'm sorry because her reaction (as well as Ryan's reaction when confronted) is more (strong) evidence that it was an EA.

Has she shown as much remorse for hurting you as she shows anger for exposure?

Frankly, she's in defensive mode and looking for any excuse to avoid holding herself accountable for inappropriate (or admitting to) behavior. It's very difficult to get anyone to admit to an EA (and don't count on the therapist to judge her).

Don't lose track of the fact that there's only one victim here - and that's you. Everything else is a consequence of her decisions (and sneaky behavior on the 4th).

Don't feel bad for her (it's called the white knight syndrome). There's only one victim here and that's you. Every consequence for her is a result of her decisions (and that's not on you).

Hopefully she'll wise up (read: Not Just Friends) and apply boundaries with OM.

Her reaction at exposure is typical cheater rage because you blew up her fantasy. IMO she reached out to Ryan (among other reasons maybe she saw him as controllable) and created this 'safe' friendship where she could flirt and get attention from another man - in addition to having the benefits of a steady reliable husband.

Frankly, she should not be all that embarrassed at work. If this was an innocent friendship, she should be flattered that you care; and at work she can (and will) brush it off as a misunderstanding and say you're jealous.

Plus (and this is important) why (if he means nothing to her) does she give a crap what Ryan thinks?? Does he play some important role with her at work? Do they interact a lot at work?

She selfishly (or best case: thoughtlessly) risked her marriage, made you feel unsafe from infidelity, and led another man to believe she might be interested in him romantically.

She should be grieving risking her marriage and hurting you vs losing her 'friendship' with Ryan and a very minor level of awkwardness at work.


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## Robert22205

Affairs are based on fantasy. They don't really know the OP .... they just build a fantasy about how 'special' or deserving the OP is (which helps justify reaching out to them in the first place).

Don't act on feeling sorry for her (that's called the while knight syndrome). There's only one victim here - and that's you. You did nothing to deserve this **** show. Every consequence to her is a result of choices she made (ignoring your concerns and being so sneaky on the 4th). None of her consequences are your fault.

BTW: I'm surprised no one has suggested that she find another job. As long as she has any contact with Ryan (even sees him walking down the street), he will trigger whatever 'need' or feeling she had that motivated her to reach out to him in the first place.


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## Smileevenifithurts

I actually downloaded not just friends 3 days ago and its a great book! However my wife doesn't believe she was having an EA and in turn won't ever admit to any of the points in the book.

She says she's embarrassed to go to work because she doesn't know if this other guy is telling people that she likes him and thats not true but when she comes home she is obviously upset towards me, i can understand the embarrassment issue and i do sympathize with that but she will never understand what led me to even confront the OM. 

She feels complaining about how i was mad at her for an entire week, but i explained to her that im still mad but im learning to repair us so that we can move forward, I'm getting frustrated with her because now she is some how a victim, I'm counting on counseling to help her realize that what she did was all her and she made those decisions because she has an attraction towards another guy, if it wasn't an EA, which i believe it was or it was heading there then what could her reasons be even reaching out to this guy wanting to be the person he talks and vents to? She claims its because she has a good heart and just wanted us all to be friends but who wants to be friends with the one you're worried about? For her to ignore my feelings about him and her initiate the contact with him, and continue to do so for 5 months really hurts me. She says she wasn't hiding anything as she didn't delete anyting other than her text messages but claims they were deleted days before we fought, which would have been on the 3rd.


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## Gabriel

Hmm, well this took a turn. Not sure I would have told Ryan that your wife "liked" him. That was a mistake. The proper thing upon confrontation was to nip anything in the bud, and piss on your tree - give him the "I'm watching you" warning. If anything, telling him that might make him more interested in her. Now you are calling this an EA - which felt more like a little spark that needed to be stomped on.

And yes, now it will be awkward for your wife at work. This will require her to have a talk with him, which you didn't want. And in this talk, she is going to have to tell him 1) look, I don't like you like that, and 2) my husband is being crazy. She will say things things to save her reputation. A position you put her in. She will resent you for this.

You're going to have to fix this part with your wife somehow. Might even want to talk with Ryan again - hey dude, I've been traveling a lot and when I heard about July 4th and saw my wife was texting you I assumed some things. And while I'll never apologize for defending my marriage, I might have jumped to some conclusions. You're a guy, you get it, right?

I mean, from the sounds of it, Ryan isn't at fault here, yet. He hung around too long at your house because he was enjoying a conversation with your wife. Somehow I totally missed that they were coworkers. That gives them way more to talk about. 

Your wife then, is the one reaching out with texts. And he seemed really contrite and apologetic when you confronted him. From my seat, he seems like a decent dude and your wife is a bit too friendly with him. So it was good you talked to both your wife and him about this, and she should feel like she's had her wrist slapped a bit, but you might need to do a little backtracking here. Then just keep your eyes open, just in case.

It's clear your wife doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. And her continuing to text him is concerning, not necessarily because an affair is going to happen here, but more because she isn't respecting your boundaries.


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## Robert22205

.... my wife doesn't believe she was having an EA and in turn won't ever admit to any of the points in the book. 

If she resents you for being a concerned husband, then she already has one foot out the door. And Ryan is not some frail sensitive guy that you have to apologize to. Any weakness on your part will be interpreted as a free pass for their relationship (as well as with OM in the future) to continue.

If you apologize to Ryan - then he wins. And you will have him sniffing around your wife for the rest of your life.

You need to pin her down more on the book.

She's missing a major point of the book. Regardless of whether she's having an EA, she has weak boundaries - and weak boundaries expose the marriage to the risk of infidelity (something neither of you want).

She's not a licensed therapist and has no business ignoring your concerns and reaching out/offering her shoulder to a: divorced single dad, with a history of domestic abuse, that's always had a crush on her. Ryan almost pissing himself when confronted is evidence that he knew his thoughts/intentions if not his behavior were inappropriate.

She knew you would object to him staying over on the 4th - and she intentionally chose not to notify you until after he left.

All the consequences (including the minor embarrassment at work which she can easily dismiss) are on her. If she had backed of reaching out to him back in February - none of this would have happened.


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## Gabriel

She isn't going to read the book. The only people who read these things are betrayed spouses and truly remorseful people who really want to fix whatever they've done. Your wife is neither of these things. The more you press her to read the book the more resistance you will get, and it will drive a wedge between you.

Your hope here would be to just read it yourself, in front of her. Maybe she'll get curious.


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## Tdbo

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I actually downloaded not just friends 3 days ago and its a great book! However my wife doesn't believe she was having an EA and in turn won't ever admit to any of the points in the book.
> 
> She says she's embarrassed to go to work because she doesn't know if this other guy is telling people that she likes him and thats not true but when she comes home she is obviously upset towards me, i can understand the embarrassment issue and i do sympathize with that but she will never understand what led me to even confront the OM.
> 
> She feels complaining about how i was mad at her for an entire week, but i explained to her that im still mad but im learning to repair us so that we can move forward, I'm getting frustrated with her because now she is some how a victim, I'm counting on counseling to help her realize that what she did was all her and she made those decisions because she has an attraction towards another guy, if it wasn't an EA, which i believe it was or it was heading there then what could her reasons be even reaching out to this guy wanting to be the person he talks and vents to? She claims its because she has a good heart and just wanted us all to be friends but who wants to be friends with the one you're worried about? For her to ignore my feelings about him and her initiate the contact with him, and continue to do so for 5 months really hurts me. She says she wasn't hiding anything as she didn't delete anyting other than her text messages but claims they were deleted days before we fought, which would have been on the 3rd.



Use her reaction as a gauge to your effectiveness.
If this were a game of darts, you hit a bullseye.
Stay the course. Do not allow her to blame shift.
This is all on her. Make sure it stays there.
I love how she keeps bring up about you both being friends with him. Inform her that if this were the case, *wouldn't it be helpful if you were present at the same party, that she entertained him at in extra innings?*
As a matter of fact, ratcheting up the mad on your part a tad, may not be a bad idea.
I'd also add, detaching from her a tad may also be warranted.
She needs to feel more consequence, to see if some shame can be garnered from her.
I agree with others that the alarming thing is that she feels no remorse, even for you feeling hurt.
Next time she whines about her embarrassment at work, offer to assist her in updating her resume.
Keep on offense. She will find it harder to defend her position over time.


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## OutofRetirement

Smileevenifithurts said:


> she made those decisions because she has an attraction towards another guy, ... For her to ignore my feelings about him and her initiate the contact with him, and continue to do so for 5 months really hurts me. She says she wasn't hiding anything as *she didn't delete anyting other than her text messages*


I have to laugh at that one ... I didn't delete anything EXCEPT (all the messages). I give her credit, and all cheaters, for ability to lie to you with crazy and even weird lies and assertions, all with a straight face.

Typically cheaters will confide with their TOXIC friends. Your wife confided with her friend, but she apparently did not confide that her relationship with Ryan was causing problems with you, and she did not confide that she was attracted to Ryan. That is not uncommon when the friend is not toxic and the cheater knows the friend would disapprove.

The ending of the messages, the overly enthusiastic way she ended the messages, is ABSOLUTELY an indication of her feelings toward him. I have seen EAs that exhibited those exact same signs. Where the endings of the messages were overly enthusiastic, endings that were not there for ANY OTHER PERSON, not you, her husband, not her best friend, with whom she was partially confiding.

In my observation, counseling is a crap shoot. You roll the dice on a good one, or even not a terrible one. My observation is that counseling frequently focuses on saving the marriage at ALMOST all costs. Also, frequently these counselors wouldn't be able to catch an insincere liar if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. Counselors frequently accept all statements as truth. So be prepared for the counselor validating your wife's assertions, and making you the bad guy even more for your controlling behaviors and lack of boundaries in confronting Ryan. Maybe the counselor will be able to identify your whole problem with your marriage, the reason your wife needed a male friend like Ryan, is because of your controlling-ness. After all, what did you do to cause your wife to want to hide it from you? And why haven't you done the same with a female "friend." Obviously your wife had problems with you, but you had no problems with her. Counselors won't say it like that, but you will get the message. Hopefully the counselor isn't one of those.

Absent counseling, your best chances of salvaging your marriage and maintaining your self-esteem is to stand to your assertions - that your wife was hiding a secret relationship with another man, and you found out about it. The problem is in the hiding. She gave you partial truths that made it look like "just want to be friends" but unless I missed something she didn't show any remorse or even regret for hiding it, and she didn't give you any satisfaction of her saying "no, I was not cheating, but yes, I can see why you might have thought that." Admit that you had a valid reason to do the things you did. Which is another reason this just looks worse and worse. Reasonable, SINCERE people can identify legitimate actions taken by others, even if they do not agree with those actions. Your wife seems adamant that you were completely wrong and she was completely innocent.


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## Gabriel

Tdbo said:


> She will find it harder to defend her position over time.


This is actually a great point. So far, the only mistake I think you made was telling Ryan you thought your wife liked him. Everything you've done has been on point - and guess what, in these situations, we have all made tons of mistakes, so don't beat yourself up.

This quote is correct. She is the one that ****ed up. I mean, allowing someone like that to be over that late is one thing, but the texting, etc. "how are you doing?" afterwards, despite your boundaries, is worse.


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## BluesPower

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I actually downloaded not just friends 3 days ago and its a great book! However my wife doesn't believe she was having an EA and in turn won't ever admit to any of the points in the book.
> 
> She says she's embarrassed to go to work because she doesn't know if this other guy is telling people that she likes him and thats not true but when she comes home she is obviously upset towards me, i can understand the embarrassment issue and i do sympathize with that but she will never understand what led me to even confront the OM.
> 
> She feels complaining about how i was mad at her for an entire week, but i explained to her that im still mad but im learning to repair us so that we can move forward, I'm getting frustrated with her because now she is some how a victim, I'm counting on counseling to help her realize that what she did was all her and she made those decisions because she has an attraction towards another guy, if it wasn't an EA, which i believe it was or it was heading there then what could her reasons be even reaching out to this guy wanting to be the person he talks and vents to? She claims its because she has a good heart and just wanted us all to be friends but who wants to be friends with the one you're worried about? For her to ignore my feelings about him and her initiate the contact with him, and continue to do so for 5 months really hurts me. She says she wasn't hiding anything as she didn't delete anyting other than her text messages but claims they were deleted days before we fought, which would have been on the 3rd.


My brother, you are really being foolish and weak about this. 

All of this BS that she is spouting are you is just that, BS. 

If you cannot figure out that SHE had and affair, emotional at least, and she is gas lighting you then you might as well put an attorney on retainer, because you are going to need one sooner rather than later. 

Stop being weak and apologetic, if you have not already lost your wife, you most defiantly lose it soon. 

WOMEN HATE WEAK MEN...


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## Mr loyal

Yeah my stbxw reacted the same when I reached out to OM... the worst is when she seemed to want to protect him. Blame shifting, gaslighting and trickle truth from then on. I feel for you buddy


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## farsidejunky

Smile:

This is coming from a retired Soldier:

Stop taking charge of this situation as if she was one of your Joe's.

You are trying to make your wife come to the table so you can fix this...when you aren't the one who broke it.

Your entire approach should be something like this:

"Wife, your actions continue to confirm my suspicions about you and Ryan. Hear me very carefully. I would rather live without you than to have a wife who thinks spending hours with another man and deleting the messages is somehow okay."

Then shut the **** up and get on with your day.

This is not a debate.

This is not her opportunity to tell you how you fell short.

Tell her what you expect, and do nothing for her until she begins to meet those expectations.

Lastly, stop listening to what she says, and start watching what she does. Only action matters.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Robert22205

She new for sure that you didn't approve of Ryan right from the start (and never would).

She doesn't have any reasonable explanation for her continuing to reach out to Ryan and sneaking behind your back to spend the evening of the 4th with him.

I suggest you create a journal of your discussions and her replies. If only to track her zigs and zags.

Then you can provide her with a written organized response point by point (and avoid making her defensive and give her time to provide a reasonable reply) .... or use it as talking points.

*She claims its because she has a good heart and just wanted us all to be friends .... *

She has a strategy of creating a false assumption (e.g., a good heart) to avoid the facts and give herself the moral high ground. In the context of this situation she did not act out of a good heart.

It's selfish and unreasonable for her to say "she just wanted us all to be friends" when you informed her that you have good reason to believe that he wants to have sex with her. Someone with a good heart would prioritize their spouse's feelings - and avoid a man that has always had a crush on her. A good heart would have stopped reaching out to Ryan back in February.

*She says she wasn't hiding anything as she didn't delete anything other than her text messages but claims they were deleted days before we fought, which would have been on the 3rd. *

Again, she's claims the moral high ground because she wasn't hiding anything. Not hiding/deleting stuff isn't the main point. After your talk in February (and again when she wanted to invite him over to hang out) she shouldn't have been reaching out to Ryan at all after you (repeatedly) expressed your concerns about his motives. 

Plus,her behavior on the 4th with Ryan could be interpreted as her hiding something from you because she knew you would not approve of Ryan staying over after the others left (i.e., she was intentionally deceitful).


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## Robert22205

Be prepared. At some point she may say she didn't notify you that Ryan was staying over after the bbq because she knew it would upset you (and therefore, she was protecting you).

That mindset (protecting you) is not applicable where you have stated (repeatedly) that you are opposed to her being 'friends' with Ryan because you believe Ryan is (and always has been going back to HS) romantically interested in your wife. 

At a minimum, a good hearted loving empathetic spouse would have protected you by not providing Ryan with the opportunity to spend time with her after the bbq.

Now you are faced with the black hole of what happened between them that afternoon/night - made worse by her intentional deceit by hiding it (until he left). 

Because of the element of deceit, you now don't have a basis to trust or believe her version of what happened after the bbq. All you know for sure is that Ryan felt guilty enough to almost piss himself when confronted.


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## Chaparral

She’s embarrassed at what folks at work will think. I will bet the neighbors at the party earlier are thinking things when they left your wife alone with a single guy. If any live close I bet they were watching closely to see what time he left . Especially after watching their interactions which were no doubt very familiar. People are suspicious by nature and they have no doubt filled in the blanks.


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## Robert22205

Is there anyone that attended your wife’s bbq that you can speak with? Were they drinking? Were there a lot of beer cans and/or wine bottles in your garbage afterward? 

The normal 24/7 gossip grapevine at work would have already been very aware of any friendship between your wife & Ryan. Plus him staying (an additional 4 hours until midnight) after the others (coworkers) left just added more fuel to the office gossip. The presence of young children means nothing because playdates are sometimes used as a convenient cover story for inappropriate behavior. 

Therefore, any potential embarrassment with coworkers is all her doing and has nothing to do with your subsequent talk with Ryan. Plus this **** storm in your life could have been avoided if she backed off in February when you first expressed your concerns.

Ryan almost pissing himself when confronted; and her over reaction to exposure (and rejecting the book) suggests that she is in self-preservation mode in an effort to stonewall/block any further inquiry into what happened on the 4th. 
I’m not suggesting a PA. There’s not enough info posted to conclude that it’s a PA plus there’s a lot of verbal & other physical activity that may shame/embarrass her - or could put her marriage at risk.

IMO, based on both their extreme reactions, Ryan made a pass at her … and your wife is unable or too proud to admit to herself that you are right.


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## manfromlamancha

I agree with Gabriel in that telling him that your wife "liked" him was a mistake - it boosted his ego, put you in a weak position and understandably embarassed your wife (whether she liked him or not).

I would have just told him what Gabriel said which is "I am watching you and while my wife may think this is an appropriate friendship, you and I know better, don't we? I hope you understand me loud and clear".

Anyway, explain to your wife that perhaps that is what you should have done and watch for her reaction to that.


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## aine

@Smileevenifithurts , your wife is more concerned with her discomfort, her image, etc than with your pain, to my mind when this happens, it says all you need to know. 
Do not go easy on her. Typical Waywards, often take some time (if ever) the reality of the damage they are doing. She played with fire and got caught, now she is denying.


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## Beach123

If she is mad at you that means it was likely MORE than an EA.

it also means she is aligned more with HIM than she is to you. She isn’t mad she did it - she is mad she got caught.

file for divorce!!! IF she intends to continue the marriage - SHE can earn it back by proving that she considers what she’s done to ruin the marriage... and she does everything in her power to repair the damage she has done!

stop taking this crap attitude from her! File!


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## MattMatt

Here is an off the wall idea. Maybe Ryan was not after your wife?

Maybe your wife was after Ryan?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Beach123 said:


> If she is mad at you that means it was likely MORE than an EA.
> 
> it also means she is aligned more with HIM than she is to you. She isn’t mad she did it - she is mad she got caught.


Amen from the choir. Looking back several years ago, I wish I had been utilizing this site prior to my FWWs affair. All the signs were there, and when I asked my wife if she was having an affair, she became angry and replied “what you’re telling me is you are having an affair!” I was like WTF? Deflecting 101.

After reading many stories on here one thing that rings true is that When you mention your concerns and your spouse becomes defensive......problem....either an EA or PA. Sadly, I accepted initially my FWWs response until the day she asked me for a separation ( another word for I need space so I can see AP without interference from you).

i followed advice from several posters on here, most Notably EYES OPEN....MOUTH SHUT.
i went into detective mode as advised I searched, texts,emails, and the car and house for lingerie and viola Found a treasure trove of racy lingerie I had never seen in our guest bedroom closet In a laundry basket. I listened as advised, kept my mouth shut, and busted her with AP at her company’s open house Which she told me spouses were not invited to. I knew that was BS, so I showed up One half hour after the affair (pun intended) started. Scouted the premises, saw wife and AP POSOM in glass enclosed conference room in the center of the building, and I read his lips “what’s he doing here”.Busted!

point is, had I followed your methods, it is highly unlikely I would have busted her so quickly.
My advice is first, hell yes there is something going on, but you tipped your hand. You need to regroup, and EOMS.....you know what is going on but you can’t prove it. stay vigilant and do not accept her BS explanations.

Good luck


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## Robert22205

IMO stop using the term EA. Especially in MC.

Otherwise, you will waste time & money about whether it was an ‘EA’ vs what's relevant which is the specific incidences of inappropriate behavior by your wife towards her husband (or any husband).

In MC focus on the facts which (cumulatively) demonstrate that your wife’s behavior toward you (or any husband) was:

1 - selfish,
2 - entitled,
3 – disrespectful
4 – lacking in empathy for her husband, and
5 - deceitful (e.g., failure to mention to her GF that the ‘brotherly’ relationship with Ryan is negatively impacting her husband; and knowing you would disapprove, allowing Ryan 4 extra hours after the bbq).

Finally, I suggest you prepare a sentence (mentally or on paper listing the above 5 items) that you can draw on at the spur of the moment to characterize your wife’s continued pursuit of a relationship with Ryan as: selfish, entitled, disrespectful, lacking in empathy for you, and deceitful.

You'll need that sentence in order to set the agenda in MC. You'll need that sentence (or certain elements of it) to respond to her excuses, blame shifting or minimizing. And especially for: I'm was being good hearted, he's just my 'brother', I have no romantic interest in him, you must trust me, - or you invaded my privacy!


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## Robert22205

With respect to her GF that questioned the amount of contact with Ryan (and your wife responded he's like a brother), does that GF work with them, was the GF at the BBQ on the 4th, and does the GF know Ryan?

Consider asking the GF what specifically she was reacting to in that text as well as why she thought it was appropriate to question your wife (e.g., what does she know about Ryan or their relationship that you don't know).


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## Tdbo

MattMatt said:


> Here is an off the wall idea. Maybe Ryan was not after your wife?
> 
> Maybe your wife was after Ryan?


There may very well be something to this, given her extreme attitude plus the fact that Ryan was more forthcoming with you than your own wife. He had the texts, she wiped them. He's keeping a "Papertrail," she's shredding hers.
I'd say it is time to ratchet up the pressure. You need to secure an attorney and tie up and secure your own loose ends at a minimum for your protection.
It's time for her to really see the ramifications of the path she is on. You can accomplish this in two ways. The formal approach is to have her served with D paperwork stone cold. Or a more informal approach would be to cook her breakfast, and while the two of you are eating, you pull out some D paperwork and start filling it out over coffee.
Of course, if you go informal, have the groundwork laid to go formal with a phone call to your lawyer.
If you are going to turn this around, you are going to have to change the dynamic. That means blow it up to save it.


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## Robert22205

Generally, the more info you provide the more targeted and useful our advice is.

What kind of organization do they work for? A hospital?

How long have they worked together?

What level of contact between them is required by their jobs?

Is Ryan or your wife a supervisor?

Has she agreed to go NC with Ryan?


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## hinterdir

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Hello, I'm new and I've never done this before.
> 
> I'll start out by explaining my situation, I've been married for 12 years, been together for 14. My wife and i have 3 children together, ages 5 to 10. I have a pretty demanding job, I'm a detective and been in law enforcement for 8 years. My schedule itself can be hard on my wife and family.
> 
> I had to work the 4th of July, my wife decided she wanted to celebrate the 4th with some of her coworker's from her job. I thought that would be awesome. It wasn't until i received a text from her around 12:30am telling me that everyone had left around 8:00pm except for one person, who was a guy. They spent the 4th of july together from 8:00pm until 12:30am. Now, keep in mind we have 3 little kids and he has 2 kids in similar age and they were also over at the house.
> 
> I don't think my wife physically cheated on me, but am i wrong to be hurt that she felt it was ok to spend the 4th of July with another guy? This guy i have always had bad feelings about to begin with. We all use to be friends but i always felt like he liked my wife, after this guy broke up with his girlfriend we all stopped talking and hanging out, flash forward about 10 years and he started working with my wife after he got terminated from his job for domestic abuse. I asked my wife why she thought it was ok to have another guy at our house until midnight, she stated it was because they're just friends and were talking.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that most guys are dogs, i believe in having friends of the opposite sex however, i don't believe its acceptable to have a male friend at another married mans house spending a holiday together, especially until midnight. My wife doesn't see it that way though and even after we talked i don't feel any better about the situation. I can't help but wonder whay really was happening, am i not good enough for her? Am i not what shes wanted and she like the attention from a different guy? So many insecurities are coming out that i didn't even know i had and I'm scared its going to ruin my marriage.
> 
> Am i over reacting? Is it ok for a guy to be at my house until midnight, celebrating a holiday with my wife and my kids? A guy i don't even trust anymore...


If it is a boundary to you then that is your right. 
You are totally within your right as a husband to tell her you do not like that, it hurts the marriage, it is a level of closeness, intimacy, exclusiveness to be hanging alone with another man. Do not hold back, tell her all that this event has done and DO NOT apologize for feeling the way you feel. Many try to guilt you and act as if they get to decide if your feelings are valid and if you "should" feel them and if they deem that your feelings aren't valid they dismiss them and belittle you for daring to have feelings so tell her how you feel and do not hold back. Lastly let her know that her actions are what brought out the feelings. I'm guessing, on some level her actions have had made you question, on some level, her faithfulness to you. Did she kiss him? Do anything sexual? Was she sharing really close, intimate details about herself and life and having strong emotional bonding? All of these questions...if any of them are in your mind now all came about because she chose to hang out completely alone with another man for 4 hours late into the night. 

What she did is bringing you anxiety, doubt, worry, fear, a questioning of her relationship boundaries, how emotionally close she is with other men....etc.

A truly faithful and loving spouse would apologize, confess she didn't realize that her actions are putting a ***** in the marital closeness, was causing you pain and anxiety and hurting the marriage and she would say she won't do that again.

If she says you are crazy, she'll hang out any time she wants with any man she wants at any hour of the morning she wants and that you are the one with the problem then you are dealing with a selfish person whose personal whims and desires trump the health of the marriage. Most spouses do not do things with the opposite sex if and when a spouse tells them point blank it hurts them, stresses the marriage and has them questioning their motives and faithfulness. 

So bring it up again, declare what it has made you feel and how it hurts your trust and closeness in the marriage...maybe even her motives and faithfulness. Never let her belittle your true feelings. Evaluate if she cares about your feelings and has any concern for how this makes you feel or if she seems dismissive and if she maintains the "right" to keep doing it regardless of how it affects the marriage intimacy and closeness and trust. 

Hopefully she'll see it hurts you and stop it and show remorse. 
If not, if she belittles you, acts as if you are spoiling her fun and shows rebellion and hostility, you may have some problems going forward.


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## Gabriel

Robert22205 said:


> With respect to her GF that questioned the amount of contact with Ryan (and your wife responded he's like a brother), does that GF work with them, was the GF at the BBQ on the 4th, and does the GF know Ryan?
> 
> Consider asking the GF what specifically she was reacting to in that text as well as why she thought it was appropriate to question your wife (e.g., what does she know about Ryan or their relationship that you don't know).


I saw it a different way. I saw this as his wife preemptively saying he was like a brother to the GF to placate her. Something like this,

"Yeah, my husband is upset. Ryan hung out at the house with the kids until midnight on the 4th of July when he wasn't here. So now he's freaking out, thinking there's something going on. I mean, I think of Ryan like a brother. He's making a mountain out of a mole hill."


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## MattMatt

I was a Ryan, in a way. Imagine my shock when it became apparent that an old female friend of mine really was trying to get me into bed with her. 😲 

I was utterly clueless, until I realised what was happening and put a stop to it.

Was I naive? Absolutely I was!


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## Robert22205

*Smileevenifithurts: *How are you doing? Check in with us for advice or just to vent/share your pain. 

You're not the first to walk this path - and you are not alone.


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## Tempocontour

I would tell your wife that obviously she care more about his feelings than yours. Base on her behavior and reaction, it seems like she's already in a EA. And deleting text is hiding something that she didn't want you too read. I've read so many of these post where the wife likes to "talk and help" then eventually end up having an affair.


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## Beach123

When ANY spouse is willing to defend the person outside the marriage and that ‘friendship’ over the spouse they made vows to - that tells you they are choosing that person over the spouse. And THAT is all you need to know.

the alliance and commitment is no longer to the person they married... and it’s definitely a threat to the marriage!


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## BarbedFenceRider

Put it this way. You and AP are hanging from a bridge ready to fall. Imminent death. Your wife can only lift one of you to safety. 
Now think hard, who does she pick to lift?

Now is the time you start the 180 and take a deep breath. You will survive and find someone who has your back. And not constantly stabbing things into it! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robert22205

I recall that you two start MC today. Good luck. Check in and let us know if you got the results you were hoping for.


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## TDSC60

You said you only saw the deleted messages when you confronted the OM. OK. But how do you know he did not delete the messages that may have been sexual in nature? His acting remorseful to you is to be expected if they want to continue their affair. They are in this together while you are now the enemy.

Eyes open, mouth shut. Your wife's anger is a big red flag. Her saying she just wanted the 3 of you to be friends is BS......another red flag.

They work together.....yet another red flag. They can now just talk and plan at work and not use any electronic communication that you can see. 

What is the work location like? Could they sneak around and be together at work? Or would they have to take it outside to a car or motel? Can you track her location?

The point is that you really don't have any evidence yet, just suspicions. Time to shut up and investigate a little more without confronting her.

Be careful of MC. Lots of them try to blame the husband for anything wrong in a marriage even though the wife has cheated.


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## Oldtimer

Smile hasn’t been on for five days, hopefully he’s doing ok.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

If you are going to a marriage counselor make sure you get a male marriage counselor


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## Robert22205

I hope you didn't tell the therapist that you were seeking advice online (or from your friends). 

Why? MC discourage seeking support/advice elsewhere. The MC focus is to bring you two together (and for you to forgive, forget since you don't have eye witness proof - and move on) vs having your wife change her behavior long term (and make you feel safe from infidelity).


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## Robert22205

*Smileevenifithurts*

I hope you're on track to getting what you need from your wife.

One of the benefits of this forum is our cumulative experience with infidelity.

Everyone's story and lessons learned are a valuable resource for the next victim.

Don't hesitate to check in and vent and/or share what worked - and what didn't.


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## Smileevenifithurts

Update:

MC was only last week and it was basically an orientation and getting to know us and why we were there. Nothing useful. 

My wife and I have been arguing a lot lately, we hadn't had sex in about 5 months, she has been pretty determined to initiate physical intimacy for the past week but its not stopped and gone back to the old ways of only me wanting it.

I asked her about the text messages again and why she deleted them, she told me that she had deleted them before the 4th of july event because she was just wanting to clean her phone up. I'm a little upset with myself as i have found myself unintentionally apologizing for arguments. She also brings up past things I've done, such as being caught masterbating to porn 11 years ago, liking a girls Instagram picture who is a mutual friend on Instagram.

I have also come to the realization that i had a EA several years ago with another female. As i said i am a police officer and i was approached by a women who i had arrested for felony DUI. She became sober and gave me her 1st year sobriety coin and told me she wanted me to be at her graduation for her classes of drug and alcohol court program. She asked that i present a chip to her with her family and friends there. I felt i was honored to be included as thay typically doesn't happen.

We became Facebook friends and i would check on her to make sure she was doing well, our conversations were brief and never out of line other than one time where i told her i would stop by at her work and see how she was. My wife had read our conversation as i didn't delete them. I absolutely have zero feelings for her but i did enjoy that i was included in her recovery. Once she pointed that out i immediately deleted her. I have not been the perfect husband as i believe this is why she felt she needed to venture out.

I am hurt that she was complaining about how long it has taken me to be back to "normal" as when i did all those things she got over them within a day or two. She told me 7 days of not sleeping and eating was a bit dramatic(thats how i took it anyway). I literally was in a dark place and I've never felt like that.

Reading other stories and replies to you guys have helped me tremendously! I can tell you this, we have another session today and we will be going once a week. I do want to work on my marriage and i really hope that my wife will understand that what she did was borderline cheating and that she can figure out why she even felt it was ok for her to do those things. I want to learn to be a better husband as well. I just know that if i can fix these things on my end and if it ever comes down to it, if we don't work out i can absolutely say that i tried my best. I'll keep you guys updated on the status.


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## Thumos

Someone may have recommended it but read "Not Just Friends" - a good rule of thumb in a marriage is if something happens with the opposite sex you would be uncomfortable with your spouse knowing, then you crossed a boundary into infidelity. The fact that she deleted texts proves they aren't just friends. Count on it.


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## BluesPower

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Update:
> 
> MC was only last week and it was basically an orientation and getting to know us and why we were there. Nothing useful.
> 
> My wife and I have been arguing a lot lately, we hadn't had sex in about 5 months, she has been pretty determined to initiate physical intimacy for the past week but its not stopped and gone back to the old ways of only me wanting it.
> 
> I asked her about the text messages again and why she deleted them, she told me that she had deleted them before the 4th of july event because she was just wanting to clean her phone up. I'm a little upset with myself as i have found myself unintentionally apologizing for arguments. She also brings up past things I've done, such as being caught masterbating to porn 11 years ago, liking a girls Instagram picture who is a mutual friend on Instagram.
> 
> I have also come to the realization that i had a EA several years ago with another female. As i said i am a police officer and i was approached by a women who i had arrested for felony DUI. She became sober and gave me her 1st year sobriety coin and told me she wanted me to be at her graduation for her classes of drug and alcohol court program. She asked that i present a chip to her with her family and friends there. I felt i was honored to be included as thay typically doesn't happen.
> 
> We became Facebook friends and i would check on her to make sure she was doing well, our conversations were brief and never out of line other than one time where i told her i would stop by at her work and see how she was. My wife had read our conversation as i didn't delete them. I absolutely have zero feelings for her but i did enjoy that i was included in her recovery. Once she pointed that out i immediately deleted her. I have not been the perfect husband as i believe this is why she felt she needed to venture out.
> 
> I am hurt that she was complaining about how long it has taken me to be back to "normal" as when i did all those things she got over them within a day or two. She told me 7 days of not sleeping and eating was a bit dramatic(thats how i took it anyway). I literally was in a dark place and I've never felt like that.
> 
> Reading other stories and replies to you guys have helped me tremendously! I can tell you this, we have another session today and we will be going once a week. I do want to work on my marriage and i really hope that my wife will understand that what she did was borderline cheating and that she can figure out why she even felt it was ok for her to do those things. I want to learn to be a better husband as well. I just know that if i can fix these things on my end and if it ever comes down to it, if we don't work out i can absolutely say that i tried my best. I'll keep you guys updated on the status.


You are still working so hard to provide excuses for your wife. 

You did not deserve this, she CHOSE to do this, she mad e the decision. 

You are wasting your time with the MC right now... 

Oh well


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## Thumos

Marriage counseling is a complete waste of time and money if your wife is engaged in adultery.


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## Divinely Favored

Smileevenifithurts said:


> Update:
> 
> MC was only last week and it was basically an orientation and getting to know us and why we were there. Nothing useful.
> 
> My wife and I have been arguing a lot lately, we hadn't had sex in about 5 months, she has been pretty determined to initiate physical intimacy for the past week but its not stopped and gone back to the old ways of only me wanting it.
> 
> I asked her about the text messages again and why she deleted them, she told me that she had deleted them before the 4th of july event because she was just wanting to clean her phone up. I'm a little upset with myself as i have found myself unintentionally apologizing for arguments. She also brings up past things I've done, such as being caught masterbating to porn 11 years ago, liking a girls Instagram picture who is a mutual friend on Instagram.
> 
> I have also come to the realization that i had a EA several years ago with another female. As i said i am a police officer and i was approached by a women who i had arrested for felony DUI. She became sober and gave me her 1st year sobriety coin and told me she wanted me to be at her graduation for her classes of drug and alcohol court program. She asked that i present a chip to her with her family and friends there. I felt i was honored to be included as thay typically doesn't happen.
> 
> We became Facebook friends and i would check on her to make sure she was doing well, our conversations were brief and never out of line other than one time where i told her i would stop by at her work and see how she was. My wife had read our conversation as i didn't delete them. I absolutely have zero feelings for her but i did enjoy that i was included in her recovery. Once she pointed that out i immediately deleted her. I have not been the perfect husband as i believe this is why she felt she needed to venture out.
> 
> I am hurt that she was complaining about how long it has taken me to be back to "normal" as when i did all those things she got over them within a day or two. She told me 7 days of not sleeping and eating was a bit dramatic(thats how i took it anyway). I literally was in a dark place and I've never felt like that.
> 
> Reading other stories and replies to you guys have helped me tremendously! I can tell you this, we have another session today and we will be going once a week. I do want to work on my marriage and i really hope that my wife will understand that what she did was borderline cheating and that she can figure out why she even felt it was ok for her to do those things. I want to learn to be a better husband as well. I just know that if i can fix these things on my end and if it ever comes down to it, if we don't work out i can absolutely say that i tried my best. I'll keep you guys updated on the status.


Clean her phone up huh? Did she delete all her text messages or only his???? There are programs to recover the deleted text messages.


----------



## Gabriel

What does this part mean? I can't tell

<<<My wife and I have been arguing a lot lately, we hadn't had sex in about 5 months, she has been pretty determined to initiate physical intimacy for the past week but its not stopped and gone back to the old ways of only me wanting it.>>>

Is your wife initiating sex right now? Are you the one withholding from her? Confused.

Sounds like you crossed a boundary a bit back then, and she has done the same. Hers is worse, IMHO, as it's a neighbor/coworker. 

Question, does she admit what she did was wrong? I haven't seen that.


----------



## Robert22205

Is she still in contact with her boyfriend? Do they still work together?
How did she convince you that nothing inappropriate happened (while you were working) while they were alone together at your house on the evening of the 4th?

MC isn't going to be productive as long as her boyfriend is in her life (including working together). Don't believe me? Ask your MC.

Stop using the label EA. Your focus should be on her behavior (the specific facts) which make you feel unsafe from infidelity.

You didn't: work with your friend everyday, hang out with her in your home, nor did you sneak behind your wife's back for a 'date' with her on the 4th of July. Plus, you immediately discontinued contact with your 'friend' when your wife expressed concern - vs your wife ignored your request 5 months ago and escalated contact.

Key point not mentioned before. Not having sex for 5 months coincides with her introducing the boyfriend into your marriage. That's a huge red flag that she reached out to the OM to satisfy her emotional/sexual needs - and that explains her consistent reluctance to stop seeing him.

I'm not defending your masturbating to porn - but it's not up close & personal like her boyfriend at work.

Finally, if she still sees him at work then the affair is still very much alive in her head. She needs to change jobs and go 100% NC.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Smith, 
As you move on this through counseling, I think you should remind your wife in no uncertain terms that if you discover that she cheated on you during the July 4th period or any time in the future that you will divorce her.


----------



## Robert22205

*Smileevenifithurts* 

Are you ok? You're not the first spouse to deal with this mess and you won't be the last. Feel free to update, vent, or share lessons learned. You are not alone.


----------



## ABHale

Sorry but that is pure BS about you being in an emotional affair with that female in rehab. You help put her on the right track and she wanted to say thanks for doing so. I am guessing you had a good long conversation with her when you arrested her.

Thanks again for the job you do.
I believe your wife cheated physically on the 4th.


----------



## TDSC60

You say you have not had sex in 5 months. That matches the timeline of when your wife started messaging the OM. Red Flag here! Cheaters become distant from their husband/BF for a variety of reasons. Focus is shifted to OM. They don't want to cheat on their AP. The husband/BF has been replaced by AP.

Your wife's attachment to OM is more serious than you think. Don't be lulled into a mind set of relief just because you have not found text proof of the affair. Don't think it has not gone physical because your wife has not admitted to that in text with GF's. Stay alert. It really looks like your wife is the one doing the chasing here. It appears she is the one who wants the friendship with OM and was pushing you to accept it.

Don't start making excuses for her. Don't assume you got the truth from the OM either. 

Her anger at you confronting him is another big red flag. She cares more about his feelings than she does yours.

Remember, cheaters lie. Cheaters gaslight. Cheaters make excuses for their behavior. Some cheaters will take the truth to the grave no matter what the consequences. A friend of mine had been married 10 years with a 7 year old kid. He got the feeling something was up with his wife about 2 years ago, then it got a little better. She went on a week long business trip and her behavior during the trip was way off from other trips. In the end he found out that she had had a brief affair 2 years ago and the AP moved away. The AP contacted his wife on Facebook and they set up the "trip" as a method for them to spend the week alone at the AP's new house. His wife never admitted to anything even when he filed for divorce due to adultery.

You are in law enforcement. Your wife is now a suspect.


----------



## Smileevenifithurts

I went through and read all the recent responses. I want to thank you all for the support.

I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.

Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.

My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly. I'm honestly just going to be silent and observe this time, i am going to start going to individual counseling. I think with recent things I've seen work wise and my relationship its important i don't do something I'll regret. I've been with my wife for 14 years and even though I've done things i absolutely regret i so badly want to make her feel how i do. I want to start talking to all these females and make her jealous but to be honest, i don't think she would be.

I should have listened regarding MC. I can say our communication has greatly improved but i still feel she likes Ryan. 😏🤷‍♂️

I went through and deleted all the female friends i had that she was threatened by, but she has since readded ryan. I'm afraid its going to get worse before it gets better.


----------



## Rob_1

This time, the first thing that you need to do is start getting your ducks in a row, because it looks that your marriage eventually is going to fail. Al you can do is be ready for when it happens. Start getting legal advice as to what it would look for you in a divorce.


----------



## Kamstel2

She is back to talking to him??? Wow, that is a lot of disrespect!!! Guess you now know where your marriage rates in her mind in comparison to her friend!

Talk to a lawyer and ask what you should be doing if everything falls apart in the next several months. Basically, prepare for the worst case scenario, as I think it is heading you way. Sorry.

Tell her that you will be scheduling both a doctors appointment, which you will be sitting in exam room with her to discuss her libido with the dr., AND a polygraph exam for her.

Stay strong and good luck


----------



## jlg07

Look the fact that YOU are bothered by her talking to this guy should be sufficient for her to stop. You don't treat your spouse like this -- it is VERY disrespectful. She is putting HER feelings and her "friendship" with this guy above you.
Think about that.


----------



## 2asdf2

*Smileevenifithurts* wrote:


_"I went through and read all the recent responses. I want to thank you all for the support.

I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.

Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.

*My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly. I'm honestly just going to be silent and observe this time*, i am going to start going to individual counseling. I think with recent things I've seen work wise and my relationship its important i don't do something I'll regret. I've been with my wife for 14 years and even though I've done things i absolutely regret i so badly want to make her feel how i do. I want to start talking to all these females and make her jealous but to be honest, i don't think she would be.

I should have listened regarding MC. I can say our communication has greatly i"
I went through and deleted all the female friends i had that she was threatened by, but she has since readded ryan. I'm afraid its going to get worse before it gets better."_


Kudos on the individual counseling decision

Don't condone her behavior. If you acquiesce now, you will be deemed to have given your blessing to the relationship. The counselor was wrong, and you should uphold your assessment of the relationship between Ryan and your wife.

Don't accept being equal or less important that Ryan. Don't do anything that physically harms anyone, but assert your role as the husband. Passivity is not your friend.


----------



## Stillasamountain

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.
> 
> My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly.


Few counselors are equipped to deal with emotional affairs or will even recognize them.

She's back to talking to with him because it's an emotional affair and she's addicted. Either that or her need to "save' people trumps everything, including her marriage and any feelings you might have.


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## Lostinthought61

Well I would still remind her if you uncovering any cheating emotional or physical you will serve her divorce papers....and I would reach out to Ryan and tell him if he try’s anything you will sue him as well.


----------



## ABHale

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I went through and read all the recent responses. I want to thank you all for the support.
> 
> I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.
> 
> Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.
> 
> My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly. I'm honestly just going to be silent and observe this time, i am going to start going to individual counseling. I think with recent things I've seen work wise and my relationship its important i don't do something I'll regret. I've been with my wife for 14 years and even though I've done things i absolutely regret i so badly want to make her feel how i do. I want to start talking to all these females and make her jealous but to be honest, i don't think she would be.
> 
> I should have listened regarding MC. I can say our communication has greatly improved but i still feel she likes Ryan. 😏🤷‍♂️
> 
> I went through and deleted all the female friends i had that she was threatened by, but she has since readded ryan. I'm afraid its going to get worse before it gets better.



Re add all of your friends


----------



## farsidejunky

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I went through and read all the recent responses. I want to thank you all for the support.
> 
> I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.
> 
> Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.
> 
> My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly. I'm honestly just going to be silent and observe this time, i am going to start going to individual counseling. I think with recent things I've seen work wise and my relationship its important i don't do something I'll regret. I've been with my wife for 14 years and even though I've done things i absolutely regret i so badly want to make her feel how i do. I want to start talking to all these females and make her jealous but to be honest, i don't think she would be.
> 
> I should have listened regarding MC. I can say our communication has greatly improved but i still feel she likes Ryan.
> 
> I went through and deleted all the female friends i had that she was threatened by, but she has since readded ryan. I'm afraid its going to get worse before it gets better.


That's because you were hoping the counselor could do for you what you simply didn't have the stomach to do yourself...put you foot down.

Now, because you gambled and lost, your wife is emboldened. 

Listen very carefully.

You DO NOT need ANYONE to tell you it's okay to not be okay with something. 

If you don't like it, don't live with it. 

"I'm not okay with Ryan, nor your friendship with him. Since you are willing to continue with this, I have no choice but to emotionally distance myself from you to, which will eventually lead to the end of our relationship. Just know that every message you send to him further tells me you are okay with that eventuality."

Line in the sand time, dude. 

Either you are okay with it, and it's time to STFU and live with it...

Or...

It's time to draw a line, and tell her not what she won't do, but rather what you will do...and ****ing mean it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## oldtruck

you need to file for divorce.
there is nothing to gain waiting for this to become a PA.
filing will wake up your WW or if not you will now know her
intention is and you will be better off without her.


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## TDSC60

MC is more often a mistake than not. Your's basically told your wife she could be friends with the guy no matter how you felt. MC gave her permission to strengthen the emotional attachment she already had with him.

Your wife cares nothing for your feelings. She no longer respects you. Her feelings for the other guy are stronger than her feelings for you. She is emotionally cheating. The physical cheating will come eventually if she continues to contact the other guy. Your feelings are not even on her radar screen. 

Do you really want a wife who prioritizes a male friendship over you?


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## OutofRetirement

Some people bring home strays. The neighbor across the street feeds a whole bunch of stray cats. She has been feeding the strays as long as I've lived here. I am sure in your upbringing that some people bring in stray people. But that is not a new behavior that happens at age 30. Yet, here your wife is, at best face, bringing home a stray, Ryan, who needs a shoulder to cry to. And your wife is that person.

Something is really wrong. She deleted. She outright lied, and she omitted to be deceptive. She tried to manipulate you to be friends with him. She did not cheat, though. I smell something, I believe it is the sweet smell of ********.

I can't tell you how many times I've been acquainted with people who collect strays. More than I could remember.

Also, I can't tell you how many times a man or woman has said, "He is like a brother to me" or "She is only a friend." And then you find out later they started dating, having sex, getting married. More than I could remember. I have read about these situations in forums like this one, but mostly the ones I personally have seen both were single, so not problem with infidelity.

Very, very, very frequently, they say, "I don't even find him attractive" or "He is not my type," or the (in)famous, "He is gay."

July 4th you reached the "something funny is going on." You had some feelings before that, but July 4th brought you to come here. Then you had it out with your wife over Ryan. Your wife had stopped with Ryan. You told Ryan you were unhappy. Then you went to marriage counseling over Ryan. Your wife is very aware of how you feel.

My dad taught me, "Always put yourself in the other person's shoes, see it from their side." That advice has helped me immensely. Put yourself in your wife's shoes. She met some guy, she deleted texts, she saw how much it has bothered you. What would you be feeling right now if you were in her shoes? When she is communicating with Ryan, setting up the next play date, telling him she is there as a shoulder to cry on, what is she feeling about you? If the situation was reversed, and after all your wife's problems with it, what would you be feeling as you contact the other woman who is a sister to you? 

This is how I would feel: I can't do this, it's not worth it, my wife is wrong about my feelings, but my marriage is too important to play with.

Putting myself in your shoes, I would tell my wife how I feel and then let it be. If she continued, I could not feel the same way for her again. It's not cheating, but it is a discount of our marriage, and of me, it is personal, and I would have to re-evaluate my past assumptions about how much she loves me. It's not infidelity, but it's the same feeling.


----------



## hinterdir

Smileevenifithurts said:


> I went through and read all the recent responses. I want to thank you all for the support.
> 
> I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.
> 
> Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.
> 
> My wife has since began messaging the guy again. This time she has let me know. I still don't like this and I'm honestly hurt that she wants to be his friend so badly. I'm honestly just going to be silent and observe this time, i am going to start going to individual counseling. I think with recent things I've seen work wise and my relationship its important i don't do something I'll regret. I've been with my wife for 14 years and even though I've done things i absolutely regret i so badly want to make her feel how i do. I want to start talking to all these females and make her jealous but to be honest, i don't think she would be.
> 
> I should have listened regarding MC. I can say our communication has greatly improved but i still feel she likes Ryan. 😏🤷‍♂️
> 
> I went through and deleted all the female friends i had that she was threatened by, but she has since readded ryan. I'm afraid its going to get worse before it gets better.


Well think about it.
She knows her doing this hurts you and strains the marriages and damagea your relationship...and she chooses to keep doing it anyway.


----------



## Tdbo

farsidejunky said:


> That's because you were hoping the counselor could do for you what you simply didn't have the stomach to do yourself...put you foot down.
> 
> Now, because you gambled and lost, your wife is emboldened.
> 
> Listen very carefully.
> 
> You DO NOT need ANYONE to tell you it's okay to not be okay with something.
> 
> If you don't like it, don't live with it.
> 
> "I'm not okay with Ryan, nor your friendship with him. Since you are willing to continue with this, I have no choice but to emotionally distance myself from you to, which will eventually lead to the end of our relationship. Just know that every message you send to him further tells me you are okay with that eventuality."
> 
> Line in the sand time, dude.
> 
> Either you are okay with it, and it's time to STFU and live with it...
> 
> Or...
> 
> It's time to draw a line, and tell her not what she won't do, but rather what you will do...and ****ing mean it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


This, 1000x's over.
She is in her own little world, doing what she wants to.
She is so far in her little world she doesn't realize it, or she truly doesn't respect you.
You need to change the dynamic.
Lawyer up. File.
At that point, you will know what you have to work with.
If she values you and her marriage, she will make the proper adjustments.
If not, it is clear what you need to do.


----------



## Gabriel

hinterdir said:


> Well think about it.
> She knows her doing this hurts you and strains the marriages and damages your relationship...and she chooses to keep doing it anyway.


This, right here, is all you need to realize. It's simple and it's true.

She is probably really happy that the MC told you that you were wrong and you should just stop harassing her.

YOUR GUT IS ALWAYS RIGHT. LISTEN TO IT

Question - does she let you see the messages? 

Let me tell you what I did. My wife had a total emotional affair with an old friend of hers. This went beyond where your wife is at. There were I love yous etc. In my weakened state, once we got through the initial anger, etc. I allowed her to communicate with him over email only, as long as I had full access to her email account and could read everything. 

Let me tell ya, that lasted about a week. Even though their emails were benign, I hated that they were talking, and couldn't take it anymore. So I demanded total non-contact, again. This time for good. The mistake cost me a lot of stress and it also confused the heck out of my wife.

You need to be CRYSTAL F*CKING clear with her about how you feel about this and what you intend to do if she keeps messaging him.

Or......you just trust her 100% and forget about it.

Something tells me the 2nd option will be harder.


----------



## ABHale

Your wife has already chosen Ryan over you. She knows fully that you don’t approve of their relationship, it is a relationship they have. Hope you are ok with your her having a boyfriend. Just make sure she doesn’t double book a date the nights you are off and get a chance to have a date with her. She just might ask you to watch the kids for them.


----------



## Robert22205

I don't think it's over but you need to regroup and develop an action plan (vs being passive). Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

A couple of things. I'm sorry that MC blew up on you. Don't beat yourself up too much over the MC - it's a common mistake (just like you being apologetic and trying to 'nice' or 'win' her back).

Assertive (but civil), decisive action action that demonstrates zero tolerance for the inappropriate behavior has the highest probability of success. Why? because in her current state of mind, anything less from you is viewed as a free pass to continue her friendship with Ryan.

1 - you say you talk more - are you guys more intimate emotionally as well as physically?

2- Are you able to answer this question?
Are you willing to live for the rest of your life with your wife being friends with Ryan?
Will you divorce rather than live with their friendship?

Your answer sets the stage for your next step.


----------



## Robert22205

Generally, the more information you provide about your situation, the more useful and targeted the advice/feedback.

I feel like you may have inadvertently withheld relevant information from us:

1 – Prior to MC, did she go NC with Ryan at your request? 
2 - how often does she now text Ryan? Do you have access?
3 – does Ryan initiate the text?
4 – at what time of the day does she text him?
5 – does she text him during family or your time (supper, tv, anytime she’s with you)
6 - what do they text about? Does she discuss the contents of each text with Ryan now?
7 - what did you and your wife discuss about her spending the 4th alone with Ryan?
8 - what did your MC say about her decision to spend the evening with Ryan on the 4th?
9 – Do you have a history of being jealous?
10 – Do you have a history of pursuing ‘friends’ on FB or elsewhere that your wife disapproved of (and you brushed aside)?


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## Robert22205

Two more questions....who else knows about your disapproval of your wife and Ryan?
Friends, family?

2 - Did the MC ask your wife what she gets out of her friendship with Ryan that is worth making you distressed? Or have you asked her? For example, does contact with him make her feel: smart, successful, pretty, young, that she matters, that someone notices her .... the list of 'feelings' she gets is endless.

And you need to answer the same question with respect to the 'friends' that your wife is uncomfortable with.


----------



## Divinely Favored

I wonder if it was brought up to MC that he was at your house till after midnight while you were working.


----------



## Evinrude58

farsidejunky said:


> Smile:
> 
> This is coming from a retired Soldier:
> 
> Stop taking charge of this situation as if she was one of your Joe's.
> 
> You are trying to make your wife come to the table so you can fix this...when you aren't the one who broke it.
> 
> Your entire approach should be something like this:
> 
> "Wife, your actions continue to confirm my suspicions about you and Ryan. Hear me very carefully. I would rather live without you than to have a wife who thinks spending hours with another man and deleting the messages is somehow okay."
> 
> Then shut the **** up and get on with your day.
> 
> This is not a debate.
> 
> This is not her opportunity to tell you how you fell short.
> 
> Tell her what you expect, and do nothing for her until she begins to meet those expectations.
> 
> Lastly, stop listening to what she says, and start watching what she does. Only action matters.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


just wanted to say.........THIS is something you need to listen to.


----------



## Evinrude58

So I read your thread. Your wife has chosen to keep communicating with this guy after you have told her you clearly have problems with it, to the extent you went to marriage counseling. 

So you told the guy your wife likes him, and she is now continuing a relationship with him, in front of your face? You haven’t had sex with your wife in FIVE MONTHS???????????

it is quite clear to me that you and your wife will be getting a divorce, because she is chasing another man, and you allow it and do nothing but seek out help from marriage counselors....

So my advice is to see an attorney and start the divorce process, before your wife sees and attorney and gets everything set up to drop you like a bad habit.

You do not have a salvageable situation here, because your wife is wanting to step out, and has made it clear she doesn’t respect you.

I know how it feels, I know it sucks to be dealt this hand. But you need to start acting in what you’ve been given.

The absolute bs your wife has fed you so far........OMG.
I didn’t hide anything “except” the deleted texts. Lol. You gotta be kidding. She doesn’t even worry about your reaction enough to come up with a believable line of bs.

let’s get to the nut cutting. Why, is it that this relationship is so unbalanced that your wife believes she can do what she is doing without any fear of you ending the relationship?
What has happened in the past or what is true that makes her think you are so into her that NOTHING she does could have consequences?

is she super gorgeous and you’re just an average guy?
Is she wealthy and you’ve got a mediocre job?
Have you behaved in such a way in the past that makes her think you cannot live without her?

because something here is off. There is no way your wife should be acting like this. 

I hope my bluntness doesn’t offend you. I know how horrible you must be feeling. There’s something about this that you’re not telling us, because even though she’s a cheater or not (she absolutely is), she should still be worried about losing you at least a little. She’s not.

Btw, anytime a spouse puts a relationship with someone else or something else, ahead of the marriage to their own spouse, it’s cheating.
And she knows you don’t go for thus crap with this guy, and is proceeding with him anyway. It’s the definition of cheating. He’s on her mind constantly. That is as bad as anything physical. If she was just banging a dude for fun and had no emotional connection, it would be an easier to fix situation in a way....


----------



## Gabriel

I hope you come back, OP, and let us help you. I do think this is salvageable, but ONLY if you do a very specific couple of things here. Otherwise, it's lost. 

There must be consequences to what she is doing. Consequences that matter to her. Marriage-changing consequences, like one of these:

1) You distance yourself from her in an obvious way. This is to protect you from more damage, and also to send a clear message. You do this by being in different rooms when you are both home, by only talking to her when it involves a house or kids matter, you do not chase her, you make plans with friends and get out of the house, you act ambivalent to any request she makes, etc. Don't ask her to do anything. Don't even eat the food she cooks. 

When she ultimately asks you what's wrong, or why are you acting this way, you tell her that you are preparing for the end of your marriage because she refuses to respect your boundaries. So you choose to not engage any further while she continues to talk with her "friend". Don't hide the intentions of this tactic. Tell her straight up when she asks. You do this, I do that. 

2) Start doing exactly what she is doing. Text females in your life more. Maybe even giggle when you do it. Make her jealous.

3) Lay down an honest ultimatum. E.G. despite you calling it innocent and the counselor thinking I'm overreacting, I feel extremely uncomfortable with what you are doing and cannot be in a marriage where my wife doesn't care how I feel. So this stops, or we are done. You can either respect how this is making me feel, or you can throw away our marriage.

#1 is more my style because it's easy for me to be really cold when I want to be. #2 is probably the least mature way to do it. #3 will get you do the end the fastest. People like to take various angles.

But you gotta do something. Something purposeful that will change this miserable situation you are in.


----------



## Thumos

2asdf2 said:


> I'm discontinuing MC. I thought that if i chose a male counselor it would have worked towards my benefit but it didn't.
> 
> Infact he basically told me that even though the Facebook messages and recovered text messages weren't of sexual nature she was simply just being a friend and that i overreacted. He's asked that i try and trust my wife as she hadn't done anything wrong.


I wish I could say I'm surprised by this, but I'm not. Male MC's are almost worse than female ones because they tend to white knight for women.


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## Thumos

OP, I hope you realize how disrespectful it is for your wife to be messaging this man again and rubbing your face in it at the same time. She thinks there will be no repercussions and she can do whatever she wants. It reflects a high degree of entitlement. What are you going to do with that?


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## Gabriel

Thumos said:


> OP, I hope you realize how disrespectful it is for your wife to be messaging this man again and rubbing your face in it at the same time. She thinks there will be no repercussions and she can do whatever she wants. It reflects a high degree of entitlement. What are you going to do with that?


She very likely told him/showed him because she wants to prove it's on the "up and up" and nothing nefarious. Like, see, would I tell you if I had something to hide?

I wish he'd come back and post more so we can help.


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## BarbedFenceRider

Like it has been said many times.....You are both hanging from a cliff, you and the OM. Your wife can only pick one to save. Are you COMPLETELY sure she would pick you?!

If you have ANY doubts, you may want to re-evaluate your relationship in whole, and you may decide you want something better and wholesome.


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## TDSC60

I keep going back to her not having sex with you for months and it seems that her disinterest in physical relations with you coincide with when she became focused on her friendship with Ryan. When a wife is not interested in sex with her husband (if there are no medical problems) and an other man is involved, she has more intimate feelings for OM than her husband. She is more interested in investing in OM than her husband. The odds that she has had some physical interaction with OM is high. She feels she is "cheating" on OM.

You know she is in an EA with Ryan. I think something physical has happened as well. Time for you to investigate and get the truth. She will not tell you. Since she works with him this is going to be hard. You never said what her work location is like. Is it possible that they can hook up at work?


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## BluesPower

TDSC60 said:


> I keep going back to her not having sex with you for months and it seems that her disinterest in physical relations with you coincide with when she became focused on her friendship with Ryan. When a wife is not interested in sex with her husband (if there are no medical problems) and an other man is involved, she has more intimate feelings for OM than her husband. She is more interested in investing in OM than her husband. The odds that she has had some physical interaction with OM is high. She feels she is "cheating" on OM.
> 
> You know she is in an EA with Ryan. I think something physical has happened as well. Time for you to investigate and get the truth. She will not tell you. Since she works with him this is going to be hard. You never said what her work location is like. Is it possible that they can hook up at work?


Look guys, he has not been back for a while has he? Not sure about that. 

Even if he is just reading, OP, your wife is and has been banging Ryan for a while, you may never know when it started but is was and is happening. 

You do not want the truth, but that is the truth...


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## Tempocontour

Hey, how are you doing?


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