# Reformed Cheater hoping for a miracle



## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

I am the guilty party.

I cheated on my wife multiple times, over a period of years. I'm happy to share the specifics of my indiscretions where it helps. For now, know that they were sexual, and they were wrong. There was never a love relationship or even repeat dating involved. It was periodic acting out as a dysfunctional way to cope with years of almost zero intimacy. I repeat though, IT WAS WRONG.

My issues are related to sex. Not having any, and being willing to cheat to get it. Indeed at the time I cheated my marriage was in a death spiral. Unfortunately I didn't realize that I was just as much to blame for that as my wife. I spent many years "trying to reach her". The problem was that if I would have just dropped my self-justified resentment and seen my role in our decline, it could have all been avoided. I know that now. Too late.

A year ago this week I found evidence on my wife's iPad of cheating. Typical sexting stuff. It was shocking and I was floored. At the time I was fully aware of having physically cheated my self on multiple occasions prior to that. Instead of seeing the karma, confessing and beginning to work through it all, I became an enraged betrayed spouse. I went scorched earth! Lashing out, informing family, friends, just making every possible mistake. Following that D-Day there was another when I caught her having sex with a man in a hotel the night before my birthday. That was devastating. She admitted it and then we began a physical separation in August. 

Following that my wife discovered chat conversations between me and a former affair partner that I still spoke to occasionally. I admitted to the chatting. and to meeting once. I did not admit to sex. 

I decided at that time to try to win my wife back. I also became aware of some of my shortcomings, read some transformative books, and generally began to own my 50% of driving our marriage in a ditch. BUT I never fessed up to my infidelities.

Following the discovery of my wife's infidelity, she did not stop. She continued to chat online with men. She was active on AM mainly. Later after it was hacked she moved to AFF. She was not interested in reconciliation. She added more passwords. New chat apps. Extra layers of security.

All this while I was in pursuit of her. I knew of these things, but I wanted her back. I worked tirelessly and I was faithful. I promised her that though I knew she was still talking to people, I was not (I wasn't) and I would not unless I informed her first.

This process went on for months. We would pass each other in our house. We had a shared 2 BR apartment that one of us stayed in when we were not with the kids. I made great efforts to woo her back, and I was somewhat successful she claims. BUT, never once did she commit to me. The profiles stayed up. She says she stopped being active, but there they were. There is a searing pain that you feel when you can google a username and find racy photos of your wife and her own words seeking certain specific things with others.

Around January we were getting very close to reconciling permanently. Still, my cheating was a secret. During this time I was snooping around our apartment & had begun to notice a string of peculiar things. New lingerie appeared. Some toy restraints that we bought for us years ago made their way from our toy drawer to her nightstand at the apartment. At one point I found condoms in her purse. All of this told me that she was sleeping with someone or multiple someones. 

After finding more condoms (added the ones already in her purse) I came unglued. I accused her and she denied any wrongdoing. It was all in my head. The lingerie? There for her personal enjoyment/feeling pretty. The sex cuffs? Those were to tie back the curtains. The condoms? Well, every responsible woman carries condoms (3 different brands). I did not believe her for a second. To this day though, when events have allowed her to confess all with no real consequences, she sticks to this story. I was making it up in my head.

I responded to this perceived infidelity with a decision to chat online. I did so. I signed up and began the same online chatting that she did. I chatted with a few. I went on one date. That date escalated to sexual contact, but not intercourse.

Our lease ended. What could have been a happy homecoming was instead two wounded people again forced to live together. She was injured in an accident and bedridden for several weeks. During that time I decided that if I were to have any future for my family. I'd have to stop lying. I resolved to start answering truthfully when asked questions. But I never gave a full accounting. The result was the dreaded trickle-truth.

Starting in March, things began to come out. I admitted to some physical infidelity but not others. We went to counseling. We had a truth session in which I admitted to some, but not all. She admitted to inviting someone to the apartment on 2 occasions for the express purpose of oral sex for her only. In an odd transaction that was provided and supposedly the guy left. It wasn't what I thought, but indeed something was going on, but I was still much worse.

After that my wife began the difficult process of recovery. She had a very hard time with it. So much so that she demanded I take a polygraph. This worked. It forced me to confess to everything. All I had ever done save a couple of incidents that I had actually forgotten (not physical). 

With the full knowledge of all that I'd done in nearly 20 years, my wife has decided to divorce me. Nevermind that we both did it. Nevermind she concealed sex with someone. She feels that my list of acts far outweighs her and that I am a flawed person. A broken soul unworthy of another chance to devastate her. Indeed, if I were that same person, she would be right.

But I am not. I have taken responsibility. I am transparent. She has tracking software monitoring every electronic device I own. I send her photos to prove my whereabouts constantly. I've begun therapy. I am fully prepared to do or give anything if she will continue to try with me. I know I can make this change. I know I can be the man she needs. She does not trust me though. She also takes a dim view of my prospects for change.

So I am left with this as her offer: 

She is filing for divorce (She just paid an attorney $5k as a retainer). She has set up a profile on Match.com and intends to date. Through the divorce process, she will watch me for proof of the change I am attempting. If she sees enough to warrant investing in us again, she might. But until then, on goes the divorce. She is moving on with her life and any hope for us will depend on whether she decides to return, or finds someone else better first.

While this is going on, she comes to me often for intimacy. Hugs, cuddling, sex, conversation. She wants me to keep being the man that I promise to be. But she is adamant that she is divorcing me.

This puts me in a very difficult position. I want her back. But I also must consider that she is filing for divorce. All the things you do to recover from infidelity are the opposite of what you do when divorcing. How do I conduct myself? What openness can I show a legal adversary? What about self respect? Can I maintain any while she is dating from the home we share?

I am lost and confused right now. I plan to just keep working on me. I want to be a person of integrity. I will be a man that is worthy of respect. I owe that to myself and to my children. I still love her so very much though. This is a living nightmare seemingly without end.


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

Sorry to hear this. This is a very sad story and a cautionary tale. Your wife's cheating is probably directly related to yours. Both of you had needs that were not being met and the mutual resentment began to feed off of itself and lead you both to the place that you are at. To be blunt. Your marriage is over. There has been so much damage done to both of you and I don't see how you can come back from that. She has moved on but still wants to keep you as her plan B. I know you lover her but sometimes in life you have to make tough decisions. From what you've said, it seems like you two have only discussed the symptoms, which in this case is chronic infidelity and not the actual illness. Without 100% trust and 100% dedication you can NEVER make it work and fix the problems in your marriage. Your wife doesn't have this. You just need to accept the divorce, cut off any romantic contact with your wife, and focus on your kids.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I think intuitively or literally i think she KNEW you cheated. I started getting interested in cheating because he was withdrawn, but that was a line i promised, not him...MYSELF not to cross, and i have not. But later i found out he cheated....and the thing is i knew it then...i just did not have red flags everywhere. but i still knew, and it impacted my thoughts. 

Now your wife is a morally broken person. so are you. I think her offer is fair and reasonable. If you want her jump through her hoops for a while then you can ask her to jump through yours. Considering you did more, longer....maybe you could let her have her way for now? Might be terrible advice I'm giving, but i just think she is being reasonable. 

You guys are mad hatters now. Both cheaters, and both untrustworthy... Maybe its best you do divorce and then try again later when you have grown and sexually experienced all you want to. 

Question.... Why were you and your wife not having sex? She is obviously capable with others....did she pull away as you increased porn usage...or started cheating? 

I only ask because I became colder and not engaging in sex with my husband when i sensed his wayward thoughts.... I always turned away and never let myself connect with him while engaging. But i am a sexual person....I was still having sex, but i just was refusing to be....intimate. Was your wife pulling away because she sensed your extracurricular activities? 

In regards to divorce, i say go that way. stay SUPER fair and SUPER civil. If you don't work out you can always claim your were kind and fair. While pursuing a single life settle into a SMALL place. Nothing showy, and nothing like a bachelor pad. Try to have date times with your soon to be ex wife, and show her that your EYES ARE ONLY FOR HER. YOUR HEART IS ONLY HERS. walk the walk and talk the talk. 

 If you do that, you will be fine. If after a specified period she does not commit then you are very much a changed and worthy man to go your way and find yourself a new match.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I wish I could give you some good advice, but I seriously do not see how this can be saved. 

You have hurt and abused each other too much. Some wounds never fully heal. 

I recommend you get yourself into some heavy duty counseling to figure out why you have such poor boundaries in your life. Work on becoming a better man with strong values and stronger boundaries, so that the next woman in your one will reap the benefits. But your wife is gone my friend.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

I think you need to work on you right now and not her. Work on becoming that man of integrity you want to be for you and your children. If you and her are meant to be, it will have to come after you both work on yourselves. Do not improve yourself for her, do it for yourself, so you can look in the mirror each day and be proud of what you see. Can you get another apartment for the two of you to take turns in again? I would be civil with her but do not ask questions about your future together, if she's dating, things like that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)




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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Your wife is not going to stop. 

As much as you are now "reformed" through much trickle truthing and a polygraph (otherwise you would have never confessed) the damage you caused maybe too much.

As for her, she's now playing the game, I'm guessing part of her is now enjoying this power dynamic in turning you into the C word.

She disconnected a long time ago, the very fact that you're now a f*ck buddy, says more about the history you share rather than it offering any shards of hope that you might one day be together.

If you're not living together then stop this going over whenever she needs to have sex (she's having sex with other people so get yourself tested for STDs, you are literally playing with your life)

If you have indeed reformed, then do it by continuing to work on yourself, not to show her you are a changed man but for yourself.


See a lawyer and get this divorce done. Seriously, you're putting up with a lot of b*llsh*t. Have some respect for yourself.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You blew it up.

Now you have remorse.

Might be a bit late for that.

However all is not lost.

Give her the divorce and work at being the best coparent you can be.

Then see what happens.

You either get back together eventually or you raise some great kids together. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

It's amazing how fast these situations can turn. This morning I held her in my arms. I had a small sliver of hope, just a fool's hope, that I'd be able to change her mind. 

She walked into the room where I was 3 hours ago and started berating me and telling me I have to move out. When I responded that I've got nowhere to go right now, she said that wasn't her problem. Then she told me that if she wants me out she'll just accuse me of domestic violence and have me removed from our home.

Following that I told her I was abandoning my attempt to reconcile and revoking my consent to her monitoring my every move. She has completely flipped out and demand to know why I'd do that to her. She still intends to divorce her, but I'm required I her mind to continue to do all that I was doing to save our dead marriage and stop her from doing what she herself says she is doing no matter what.

It got scary. It's still scary. I'm legitimately afraid for the second time in this process.


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## Annette Tush (May 4, 2016)

Lilac23 said:


> I think you need to work on you right now and not her. Work on becoming that man of integrity you want to be for you and your children. If you and her are meant to be, it will have to come after you both work on yourselves. Do not improve yourself for her, do it for yourself, so you can look in the mirror each day and be proud of what you see. Can you get another apartment for the two of you to take turns in again? I would be civil with her but do not ask questions about your future together, if she's dating, things like that.


I couldn't agree more. I would completely disengage from all activities with her. Become the man I really want to be. It is not all that bad, you could reunite on future, or land yourself a better wife.


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## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

I don't see you saving anything here or your wife taking you back to be honest. You broke a good woman and turned her into something she may never have been so that you could get sex from others.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

It's early morning here,and my brain is not fully functional right now( sometimes I wonder if ever), but let me see if I have this right. She did not want to have sex, so you cheated. Turns out she did want sex, just not with you.. She wants you to jump thru hoops, and maybe , just maybe y'all can go back to a sexless marriage.

I think I would opt for the divorce if it were me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are both broken.

She flipped because you took away her control. Manipulative people hate losing control. It is also why you flipped when she pulled the same games on you.

You not only need away from her for your sake, but for hers as well. But a voice activated recorder and have it on you at all times. It may save you from false DV charges.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Let me see if I've got this right. You started cheating because of years of her not giving you any pus.....errrr... intimacy. Shortly thereafter you find out she's got the pedal to metal banging other guys, some in your residence, and is packing all the accessories to give her guys the girlfriend experience. 
Has it dawned on you the reason she wasn't giving it up for you is because she had interest elsewhere and even before you were sleeping with other girls, she was in the saddle with other cowboys. I'd be willing to bet she beat you to the punch.
My question to you is what the hell are you fighting for? Are you really dumb enough to think the shear power of your will is going to cause reconciliation? She's just not into you my man and at least she got sense enough to try and end this hell you call a marriage.
Since you're history anyway, get out on your own accord before she has you physically thrown out.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think what makes you super untrustworthy is more then the fact that you're a serial cheater, it's that you lied about it, then went crazy and tried to claim the moral high ground when you found out about hers. That makes you not only a liar but an extremely entitled manipulative one, and if she hadn't demanded a polygraph you'd have never admitted anything and continued to hold things over her head.

That's tough to work with.

I also agree with others that she likely sensed yours and that may have played a part in her finding other men.

I think this is broken and you guys need to move forward separately, you're never going to be able to trust each other. You've got to make it a goal to live your life with integrity, because at this point you're not even a good prospect for a future partner. Neither of you are, but since you're here I'm addressing you; if I was considering dating you and found out about this I'd be gone. I'd see you as a double standard having lying cheat, so you're going to have to be able to demonstrate to a new partner that you're not that guy anymore.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think what makes you super untrustworthy is more then the fact that you're a serial cheater, it's that you lied about it, then went crazy and tried to claim the moral high ground when you found out about hers. That makes you not only a liar but an extremely entitled manipulative one, and if she hadn't demanded a polygraph you'd have never admitted anything and continued to hold things over her head.
> 
> That's tough to work with.
> 
> ...


Well. I could have sworn my wife wrote this until I saw you have 5,000 posts.

Of course you're right. I do intend to continue individual work because I have hit bottom as a man. I want to live the rest of my life in the light. I owe it to my kids and myself.

Right now I am just hoping to end our marriage without any false accusations or actual violence, restraining orders, or other disruptive and retaliatory tactics. I hope we can cool down and come to an agreement. I just want to limit the impact on the kids. Airing our dirty laundry within earshot of where they sleep is only going to scar them for life.

I got 2.5 hours sleep last night. I got 50+ text messages in that time hurling every insult under the sun at me. This is the woman I loved/still love & the woman I damaged. This is all that's left of us.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

To be honest with you my friend you should go for a Divorce. 

I am not going to defend you or your wife but this is what I see in your case :

1.you never talk with your wife about intimacy so you decided to sleep with other women
2.your wife refused you sex and what else,but she find some time to sleep with others,go out on dates,create accounts on cheaters sites...
3.you confess to your wife and even took Polly
4.she never told you her side of the story and her cheating. You dont bring men to your House for just oral sex and giving nothing in return,you dont use sex cuffs for curtains and you dont buy condoms just like that,lame excuses from both of you

Go with Divorce and make sure you learned some lessons. Never do this again to other woman,have some respect for the future Lady and yourself.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You are both so broken by this whole thing. Your wife probably guessed what you are up to, her gut told her, now she is doing the same thing and has gone over the edge.

The fact that she is sending you insulting texts shows she is in a lot of pain and still has feelings for you. Neither of you are acting with indifference in this whole mess. However you both need to take time out, take some space, put the marriage aside for now, no sex, no hugs, etc. You no longer allow her to carry out survellience. Just work on yourself, go and get IC for both of yourselves, be the best parents you can be for your kids, do not make any decisions for now, take time away from each other. Try and see your wife as the woman you married not the person who has been sleeping around, see her as the mother of your kids and leave it at that for now. 

sometimes time and space can enable a couple to be more level headed.
On the face of things fixing this level of damage will be very very hard but not impossible if you get professional help, but take time out first.


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## dan13732 (May 5, 2016)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I am the guilty party.
> 
> I cheated on my wife multiple times ... It was periodic acting out as a dysfunctional way to cope with years of almost zero intimacy. I repeat though, IT WAS WRONG.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that the lack of marital sex lead you to seek it out elsewhere. I'm also sorry to hear that your past actions are distressing to you. Perhaps you need some individual talk therapy to work it out and come to terms with -- and even forgive yourself.

Have you tried to address the reasons for that original period of sexlessness? If you can't, then all the potential effort to "fix the cheating" will probably be for naught. I mean, if you have baryatric surgery because you are grossly overweight from grossly overeating... it is not likely to produce results if you keep overeating, right?

Here are some next steps:

a) Individual talk therapy
b) Once you are ready and only if she is a willing partner: marital talk therapy
c) Find others in a similar boat. Consider ILIASM Forum. Many similar stories there.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

btterflykisses said:


> I don't see you saving anything here or your wife taking you back to be honest. *You broke a good woman* and turned her into something she may never have been so that you could get sex from others.


I don't agree. You can't push someone into cheating. You either have character or you don't. Neither of them do. It's unfortunate they can't make this work. I personally believe cheaters deserve one another.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Well. I could have sworn my wife wrote this until I saw you have 5,000 posts.
> 
> Of course you're right. I do intend to continue individual work because I have hit bottom as a man. I want to live the rest of my life in the light. I owe it to my kids and myself.
> 
> ...



It's not the first time I've gotten that. .... that I sound like the wife 

I can assure you I'm not your wife, but I am a woman so I know how we think. 

Your wife isn't clean in this, and if she were here I'd ask her what she planned to fix by not divorcing you and screwing other men. I mean, if the point is to stick it to you then why lie? Her actions didn't accomplish anything except to drag her to the gutter. She shouldn't just left you and been done. 

Aine called it when she said that the insulting texts mean she's invested in you emotionally. Get some time apart and clean yourself up..... you control you, not her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't agree. You can't push someone into cheating. You either have character or you don't. Neither of them do. It's unfortunate they can't make this work. I personally believe cheaters deserve one another.


I doubt she would have gone in this direction if she had been treated with respect from her husband. So now they are both cheaters they should stick together. I pity the children in the middle of this.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

btterflykisses said:


> I doubt she would have gone in this direction if she had been treated with respect from her husband. So now they are both cheaters they should stick together. I pity the children in the middle of this.


You may be right, but clearly it's still within her character to cheat or she wouldn't have allowed yourself to be driven that far. 

Both of them suck.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> AvoidDivorce said:
> 
> 
> > Well. I could have sworn my wife wrote this until I saw you have 5,000 posts.
> ...


So right now I'm telling her that for the duration of the divorce and beyond, I will no longer pursue her. I also will not be subject to the level of scrutiny I was willing to offer as a man trying to prove his fidelity. If she decides to stop pursuing divorce and try with me, I could probably open back up. I say probably because I was very shaken last night. I was attacked personally, emotionally, legally, every way but physically. I am still feeling the effects of that attack.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> btterflykisses said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt she would have gone in this direction if she had been treated with respect from her husband. So now they are both cheaters they should stick together. I pity the children in the middle of this.
> ...


It must be nice to know so much about everything that you can pass judgement on 2 people you've never met based on a post in an Internet forum.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> It must be nice to know so much about everything that you can pass judgement on 2 people you've never met based on a post in an Internet forum.


If the scant few details that you posted in this thread are true, you have both treated each other like garbage.

Yes, it was judgmental. I also never suggested that you couldn't somehow get better. But for right now? Show me that it's untrue.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Yep, time to move on and get the divorce finalized. I'm 3/4 through my divorce after 8 years of marriage and 2 young kids. Life goes on and you'll be just fine. 

Divorce sucks but being in miserable and broken marriage is fare much worse. Just be thankful you are can get out while you're young. You'll read posts on here where people stayed in crap marriages for 20+ years. That's no way to live your one and only life.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> It must be nice to know so much about everything that you can pass judgement on 2 people you've never met based on a post in an Internet forum.


That's right..

now use this righteous anger you're showing someone you've never met based on a post in an internet forum and sort your life out!


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

You should have a VAR on you at all times. Because if she does accuse you of domestic violence, evidence or not, you're going to be thrown out.

You need to stop talking to her about anything not related to the kids or divorce. Stop talking about working things out, that ship has sailed and it just keeps the drama between you two going.

Save all her text messages for your lawyer.

And try to set a better example for your kids. I'm not a parent so maybe I look at it differently but kids pick up ALOT more than parents give them credit for despite their efforts to hide it.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## JoannaG (Apr 19, 2016)

aine said:


> *The fact that she is sending you insulting texts shows she is in a lot of pain and still has feelings for you. *Neither of you are acting with indifference in this whole mess. However you both need to take time out, take some space, put the marriage aside for now, no sex, no hugs, etc. You no longer allow her to carry out survellience. Just work on yourself, go and get IC for both of yourselves, be the best parents you can be for your kids, *do not make any decisions for now*, take time away from each other. Try and see your wife as the woman you married not the person who has been sleeping around, see her as the mother of your kids and leave it at that for now.


I completely agree with this.

I treated my husband like crap for years. He found himself a wh*re. And then another. And then found a girlfriend, fell in "love" and was going to leave.

We both screwed up and are two pretty damn broken people now. But we're still together and trying our best to get through the mess we made. 

If you both want it bad enough, you can find the way to make it work.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Oh, I'm stealing that pic!



GusPolinski said:


>


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

I do feel used up. I also carry the shame and regret over what I've done. I hope one day to be able to hold my head up. I hope doing right by my children will give me that.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I do feel used up. I also carry the shame and regret over what I've done. I hope one day to be able to hold my head up. I hope doing right by my children will give me that.


Your best bet,IMO, is to see if you can get accepted at MIT or Cal Poly, and see if you can figure out some way to time travel.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I do feel used up. I also carry the shame and regret over what I've done. I hope one day to be able to hold my head up. I hope doing right by my children will give me that.


Living a principled life moving forward will help.

Your wife is punishing you; huge reserves of resentment, lashing out at you. This was made clear by her panic over losing her whipping boy. 

I really wish I had a good suggestion to simultaneously get her to commit to the marriage and not lash out at you. 

I really don't see any way around this other than divorce.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You had a chance to divorce your wife if she wasn't meeting your needs. You had a chance to go to MC and tell her frankly that your needs weren't being met. You probably could have parted amicably if it came to that. But you made a choice to do what you wanted, so you could eat cake, then lie about it, for a long time. 

What that told her is that she was never living in a marriage, but a persistent, giant, dangerous lie. You risked giving her STDs. A person that loves you would never be so reckless. That kind of realization is positively mind blowing and soul crushing. Whether you feel you have reformed, she is broken and is going to crash and burn. This is the unfortunate monster borne of betrayal. 

I concur with others. Focus on yourself.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You haven't told us why or for how long you were in a sexless marriage. The whole 20 years that you were cheating? Or...?

You have lived a large chunk of your life as a liar and cheat. Your BW/WW may or may not be emotionally hurt right now. It could be that she is just enraged that you made such a mockery of your entire marriage. Wounded pride can do a lot to generate anger.

And didn't you know how repulsively hypocritical it was to hold her feet to the fire while you were still shamelessly lying about your own behavior? You had to know that you were just making the case against your character as a human being far worse.

I think we all have some sympathy for the urge to find intimacy when you are denied it in your marriage. I think, though, that you divorce first and then find a more suitable partner.

So, please tell us. Why the lack of sex and for how long?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

What many cheaters seem to fail to discern is that the sex dries up because , on some level, the BS knows or senses either that cheating has occurred( there are all kinds of signs alerting the bs) or the BS has sensed what kind of person he or she has married. Who wants to be intimate with a disordered abuser?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> And didn't you know how repulsively hypocritical it was to hold her feet to the fire while you were still shamelessly lying about your own behavior?


If the truth be told, most cheating men, and women I suppose, don't care about what they've done, what's fair, or what's good for goose/gander, a level playing field, etc. They just don't want someone else fu-king their spouse.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> You haven't told us why or for how long you were in a sexless marriage. The whole 20 years that you were cheating? Or...?
> 
> You have lived a large chunk of your life as a liar and cheat. Your BW/WW may or may not be emotionally hurt right now. It could be that she is just enraged that you made such a mockery of your entire marriage. Wounded pride can do a lot to generate anger.
> 
> ...


We've had issues with that for as long as I can remember. Early on it was once every couple of weeks, then it slowed to once a month. Then we'd go months. I began a pattern of periodically acting out while intoxicated. By 2012 we began periods of a year without. And it wasn't just sex. All intimacy dried up. There was little hugging, kissing, cuddling, it was just 2 people on a couch.

The reasons for this were many. Until recently though, I did not own the fact that I was half the problem! I wasn't meeting her needs and therefore she could not desire me. I acted as though she were withholding and I deserved better. Much of he time I let that resentment control my life and how I treated her. The result? No sex. Who wants to be intimate with someone that acts like they hate you?

Sadly, only after she cheated and we separated did I start looking inward and realize what an ass I'd been. Once I was able to overcome the resentment over my unmet needs and start meeting hers, the sex returned. But it was too late. I had already acted out many times. My strategy of being faithful to her and trying to hide from the past failed, and here we are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it is too late and perhaps inapplicable for your current marriage, but could help you as you reflect on mistakes you have made:

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

You both cheated. Both guilty. Not sure what state you're in, but where I live, if you have intimate contact after papers are filed, and the judge finds out about it, you don't get your D, you have to start over


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ThePheonix said:


> If the truth be told, most cheating men, and women I suppose, don't care about what they've done, what's fair, or what's good for goose/gander, a level playing field, etc. They just don't want someone else fu-king their spouse.


In fact, cheaters seem to be among the most suspicious and jealous types, themselves. PROJECTION CITY.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

jld said:


> I think it is too late and perhaps inapplicable for your current marriage, but could help you as you reflect on mistakes you have made:
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


IMO MOST " HARDENED WIVES", are not "hardened" due to any deficiency or neglect etc. from their husbands, but, rather , have itches they want scratched elsewhere , combined with poor communication skills and unrealistic, princess based expectations re what another person is capable of providing. They divorce on a whim , chasing some fantasy they have derived from too much TV, Romance Novels, and magazine articles. Their husbands bore them , as they are merely hard working guys who cannot compete with Fabio.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Maxo said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is too late and perhaps inapplicable for your current marriage, but could help you as you reflect on mistakes you have made:
> ...


My hardened wife has ample reason to be and its my fault. Maybe there are some that are as you say, but her expectations were simple. You description does not apply here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Fabio is a joke and 99.99% of women know it. They aren't lusting after Fabio.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

I'm just going to leave this here: 

My wife just informed me that her divorce filing was a test to see how I would react. By shutting down my attempts to pursue her and closing off the transparency to my daily travels that she is using to feel safe from more cheating, I failed the test. She feels that my reaction is proof that I am not a safe partner, and that I am controlling.

I dont know how to react. I'm going to take some time here to think on what to do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I'm just going to leave this here:
> 
> My wife just informed me that her divorce filing was a test to see how I would react. By shutting down my attempts to pursue her and closing off the transparency to my daily travels that she is using to feel safe from more cheating, I failed the test. She feels that my reaction is proof that I am not a safe partner, and that I am controlling.
> 
> I dont know how to react. I'm going to take some time here to think on what to do.


Sounds like she has control issues of her own . . . 

I think proceeding with the divorce would be the best course of action. Either you *both* humble yourselves and take a long, hard look at your faults, or it should be curtains for the marriage.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Fabio is a joke and 99.99% of women know it. They aren't lusting after Fabio.


Just a symbolic response to this hardened wife concept. Fabio, Brad Pitt, Clooney , me,:smile2: whoever.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

That's going to be tough to overcome. Good luck.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

sapientia said:


> AvoidDivorce said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just going to leave this here:
> ...


IMO I love her. I loved her on Sunday afternoon and was all-in. This has been a curveball but I'm not dealing with a stable person. I'm dealing with a woman driven to desperation by multiple infidelities and the loss of the life she thought she had along with her dreams of a future. Through that lense this kind of thing is understandable.

Maybe she thought she was manufacturing an opportunity for me to stand firm for her. It didn't work out like she hoped.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

She filed for divorce. You took it at face value and stopped pursuing her and stopped being transparent. The not pursuing her is understandable but ceasing to be transparent is not. Would it have been any skin off your nose to continue to be transparent? What was your reason for doing this?


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> She filed for divorce. You took it at face value and stopped pursuing her and stopped being transparent. The not pursuing her is understandable but ceasing to be transparent is not. Would it have been any skin off your nose to continue to be transparent? What was your reason for doing this?


Well, it just seemed wrong to have to be accountable to my wife who is divorcing me. Also Sunday night there was a terrible fight in which I was threatened, and attacked with hurtful comments aimed at every emotional and physical weak point I had. I was hurt. I got two hours sleep. I didn't feel I should have to be accountable to someone that was abusing me that way. Further- it was on the advice of 2 therapists. They both suggested I disengage until she is ready to return to the reconciliation process. Well, one suggested and the other agreed it was a healthy idea.

I did my cheating alone. I cannot fix this alone. 

But now I am so relieved and pleased she has not filed! I already started telling her where I am again. It may not matter but it makes her feel safer and it can't make things worse.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

sapientia said:


> ??? not sure why you made the post if you have made your mind up.
> 
> I agree with Blondilocks - a lot to overcome.
> 
> Good luck with everything.


Made up my mind? That I love her? Of course I do. I always thought internet forums were about expressing yourself, being heard, sometimes validated, and seeking support. 

That or swearing and personal attacks.

Anyway, Of course I love her. That has never been in dispute. What to do? that is the question. That is the reason for the post.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> It must be nice to know so much about everything that you can pass judgement on 2 people you've never met based on a post in an Internet forum.


LOL.

All any of us know about the two of you is what you've provided here in this thread, and that's waaaaay more than enough to support @farsidejunky's assertion.

Too late to backpedal now, brochacho.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Made up my mind? That I love her? Of course I do. I always thought internet forums were about expressing yourself, being heard, sometimes validated, and seeking support.
> 
> That or swearing and personal attacks.
> 
> Anyway, Of course I love her. That has never been in dispute. What to do? that is the question. That is the reason for the post.


Don't respond to any of her vitriol. Suggest a mutually amicable dissolution of your marriage, and ensure that every action that you take is geared toward that goal.

Start detaching. The 180 will help w/ that -- learn it, live it, and love it.

Oh, and buy a VAR, learn to use it, and carry it on your person at all times. This will protect you against any false accusations of violence, abuse, etc. Any time she engages, you stop, pull out the VAR, turn it on, start recording, and THEN start talking to her... calmly. Use the first words out of your mouth to inform her that, by choosing to continue to speak w/ you, she's consenting to being recorded.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I'm just going to leave this here:
> 
> My wife just informed me that her divorce filing was a test to see how I would react. By shutting down my attempts to pursue her and closing off the transparency to my daily travels that she is using to feel safe from more cheating, I failed the test. She feels that my reaction is proof that I am not a safe partner, and that I am controlling.
> 
> I dont know how to react. I'm going to take some time here to think on what to do.


Wow. She really believes her own bullsh*t, doesn't she?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I'm just going to leave this here:
> 
> My wife just informed me that her divorce filing was a test to see how I would react. By shutting down my attempts to pursue her and closing off the transparency to my daily travels that she is using to feel safe from more cheating, I failed the test. She feels that my reaction is proof that I am not a safe partner, and that I am controlling.
> 
> I dont know how to react. I'm going to take some time here to think on what to do.


Yout must stop listening to this rhetoric from her. Both of you have screwed this marriage up. She filed for divorce. This means the marriage is dead. 

Every move you try to make she can counter with anything shifting blame onto you. Don't play the game and quit talking to her. Both of you are keeping yourselves in the eye of the storm and both are getting nowhere. The more you try to react the messier this whole mess will be. Pull back, talk to a lawyer and work on yourself and your issues. Let her do the same, quit reacting to each other and fueling the trainwreck.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry, but the marriage you describe is one of long-term unhappiness and resentment. This has now come to a head and you want to unwind the bad.

Your judgment in this has been very poor for years. Your natural inclinations and coping mechanisms have led you to make wrong, immoral, and hurtful decisions. The way you went after your WW all the while knowing about your own betrayals added huge fuel to her fire of hurt and rage.

Your judgment is still poor, so try to keep things simple and let other people guide you. Tell her you definitely don't want a divorce. Tell her that you love her and are committed to getting help for yourself. Stick with your therapy and follow the lead of your counselor(s).

Then let go of the outcome.

Work on yourself and make your best effort to be a better man.

It sounds like you both have responsibility for the sexless state of your marriage. For your part, you medicated your feelings with long-term infidelity. You treated dysfunction with dysfunction. Now it's time to treat dysfunction with healthy choices.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> I'm sorry, but the marriage you describe is one of long-term unhappiness and resentment. This has now come to a head and you want to unwind the bad.
> 
> Your judgment in this has been very poor for years. Your natural inclinations and coping mechanisms have led you to make wrong, immoral, and hurtful decisions. The way you went after your WW all the while knowing about your own betrayals added huge fuel to her fire of hurt and rage.
> 
> ...


I am well on my way down this path. It's the letting go of the outcome that I struggle with. I want so much for it to end with us happy and reconnected. It really is beyond my control though. I was impatient!

And my wife! She was so impatient to see me tested that she crafted this doomsday scenario and put me through it to see what I'd do. I wonder if she expected me to run to other women. Well, I did not. Hooray...I am choosing right for once.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Got some clarity. "I was testing you but I always intended to file, I just hadn't had time yet". Triple twist mind F**K! 

The end-of-marriage crazy train is currently stopped. I am getting off. Staying off.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I am well on my way down this path. It's the letting go of the outcome that I struggle with. I want so much for it to end with us happy and reconnected. It really is beyond my control though. I was impatient!
> 
> And my wife! She was so impatient to see me tested that she crafted this doomsday scenario and put me through it to see what I'd do. I wonder if she expected me to run to other women. Well, I did not. Hooray...I am choosing right for once.


There was/is no test, that was all just a line of crap. Someday you will realize that.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Better days are ahead my friend. My divorce will be finalized in 20 days. Been separated for almost 5 months now. Only sucky part is not seeing my young children everyday. When i think about them throughout the day, it makes my heart ache for them. But not being around someone that sucks the life out of you everyday has made life worth living again. Dating an amazing woman that actually loves me. I can't believe I put up with my ex for 10 years. Oh, I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 5 years. I honestly don't know how we made 2 beautiful kids with the lack of sex we had. Ha.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I am well on my way down this path. It's the letting go of the outcome that I struggle with. I want so much for it to end with us happy and reconnected. It really is beyond my control though. I was impatient!
> 
> And my wife! She was so impatient to see me tested that she crafted this doomsday scenario and put me through it to see what I'd do. I wonder if she expected me to run to other women. Well, I did not. Hooray...I am choosing right for once.


If your process is sound, the outcome will be what is best for you.

Trust the process.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

honcho said:


> There was/is no test, that was all just a line of crap. Someday you will realize that.


Yeah. I mistakenly believed that by test she meant that the whole scenario was a fantasy. What was really happening is that she told me early. I reacted poorly. Rather, I reacted in my own self interest rather than in hers. Well... What would anyone do?

I don't have to wait for someday. I agree.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

AvoidDivorce said:


> She walked into the room where I was 3 hours ago and started berating me and telling me I have to move out. When I responded that I've got nowhere to go right now, she said that wasn't her problem. *Then she told me that if she wants me out she'll just accuse me of domestic violence and have me removed from our home.*


Does this threat concern you now that things are hunky dory again?


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

AvoidDivorce said:


> So right now I'm telling her that for the duration of the divorce and beyond, I will no longer pursue her. I also will not be subject to the level of scrutiny I was willing to offer as a man trying to prove his fidelity.


Dont tell her, just do it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> It's amazing how fast these situations can turn. This morning I held her in my arms. I had a small sliver of hope, just a fool's hope, that I'd be able to change her mind.
> 
> *She walked into the room where I was 3 hours ago and started berating me and telling me I have to move out. When I responded that I've got nowhere to go right now, she said that wasn't her problem. Then she told me that if she wants me out she'll just accuse me of domestic violence and have me removed from our home.*
> 
> ...


I'll say it again --

Get a VAR (voice-activated recorder) ASAP.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Lilac23 said:


> Does this threat concern you now that things are hunky dory again?


She claims it was something she said in the spur of the moment & would never actually do. Further, there is little that can be done to pre-empt this. There are stiff penalties for false accusations of this nature in our state, but no way to prevent being accused.

Am I concerned, yes. There is little I can do though. What I will do is be the best roommate and parent I can be. I won't do things to escalate the tension.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

sapientia said:


> People HAVE been making suggestions about what to do. It isn't what you want to read, so you keep hoping for someone else to post something more aligned with your hopes but it doesn't work this way.
> 
> How you *feel* doesn't matter. Love doesn't matter. This is what you don't get. She's already lost all respect for you. Your marriage is no longer sacred, it's a bargaining chip she used to manipulate you. It doesn't matter that she was justified, etc. it only matters that she put your marriage up for a game of Russian roulette. Understand?
> 
> ...


Yes. We're on the same page here. Its been a long fight. I lost. I am no hero for having struggled. The struggle would not have occurred were it not for my actions.

It's just hard to let go of her. I took all the closeness we shared as her trying to stay. I think it was her slowly letting go, but wanting comfort while she did it. 

I have lost not just my wife, but my entire system of family and social support. I have to start from the dirt and build up. This is a steep price to pay. One that I hoped to avoid. I will really miss her smile.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Lilac23 said:


> Does this threat concern you now that things are hunky dory again?


He could go preemptive and at least go on record with the cops before she tries this. Let the cops know about this threat asap.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Maxo said:


> He could go preemptive and at least go on record 28th the cops before she tries this. Let the cops know about this threat asap.


He wont do it because he will be afraid she'll take reconciliation completely off the table, just my guess.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Lilac23 said:


> He wont do it because he will be afraid she'll take reconciliation completely off the table, just my guess.


He could do it clandestinely.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Yes. We're on the same page here. Its been a long fight. I lost. I am no hero for having struggled. The struggle would not have occurred were it not for my actions.
> 
> It's just hard to let go of her. I took all the closeness we shared as her trying to stay. I think it was her slowly letting go, but wanting comfort while she did it.
> 
> I have lost not just my wife, but my entire system of family and social support. I have to start from the dirt and build up. This is a steep price to pay. One that I hoped to avoid. I will really miss her smile.


It is hard to let go but you need to look clearly at what you are letting go of. She cheated on you and you cheated on her, it was also a sexless marriage. You dont seem to have become interested in her until you realized she was stepping out on you. This does not appear to a marriage worth saving and if it is, you cannot 'nice' her into wanting to reconcile. Ask yourself if you really want her or just don't want someone else to have her.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Maxo said:


> He could do it clandestinely.


The cops will still come to him and her for a statement, if he lies and says she didn't do it, even though he reported it. That would defeat the whole purpose and if he says she did do it, she will find out.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Lilac23 said:


> The cops will still come to him and her for a statement, if he lies and says she didn't do it, even though he reported it. That would defeat the whole purpose and if he says she did do it, she will find out.


I do not think they would interview her just because he makes a record of the threat. He could request they do not.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It's kind of hard to feel sympathy for a man who more or less admits to being the quintessential cake-eater and then bemoans the consequences of his actions. But, for a moment there, it looked like there was a shred of hope of getting back together. Time will tell.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> > Does this threat concern you now that things are hunky dory again?
> ...


No just in case reports in my municipality


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It's kind of hard to feel sympathy for a man who more or less admits to being the quintessential cake-eater and then bemoans the consequences of his actions. But, for a moment there, it looked like there was a shred of hope of getting back together. Time will tell.


I don't want anyone's sympathy. I am reaping what I have sewn.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Lilac23 said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > He could go preemptive and at least go on record 28th the cops before she tries this. Let the cops know about this threat asap.
> ...


Also, I won't post on here anything about what I will or will not do from a legal perspective. I appreciate everyone's advice though.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> She claims it was something she said in the spur of the moment & would never actually do. Further, there is little that can be done to pre-empt this. There are stiff penalties for false accusations of this nature in our state, but *no way to prevent being accused*.
> 
> Am I concerned, yes. There is little I can do though. What I will do is be the best roommate and parent I can be. I won't do things to escalate the tension.


Voice.

Activated.

Recorder.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

My friend you failed your "test" long time ago when you choose to sleep with other women and refused to talk with your wife about your Marriage.

Your wife also failed the test because she choose the same thing,only in her case she went for a men. 

Best choice for you is to go for a Divorce. So much happend,so much hurt,cheating and pain. 

Stay strong.


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## 1111volcano (May 25, 2016)

OK the marriage is doomed. You both need to start being civil w/ each other for your children and always be there for them. Try to have respect for her because she is the mother of your children. My kids dad does not have respect for me at all and neglected my kids for 7 years. Always be there for them. Go try and get an apartment for you. You 2 can't be around each other 24/7 after everything that is happened and can't get along. You both need your own space and focus on raising those kids and yourself, I say good luck to both of you 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Maxo said:


> IMO MOST " HARDENED WIVES", are not "hardened" due to any deficiency or neglect etc. from their husbands, but, rather , have itches they want scratched elsewhere , combined with poor communication skills and unrealistic, princess based expectations re what another person is capable of providing. They divorce on a whim , chasing some fantasy they have derived from too much TV, Romance Novels, and magazine articles. Their husbands bore them , as they are merely hard working guys who cannot compete with Fabio.


Please! He was cheating on her long before she ever cheated. A wife may not have the hard facts of what her WH is doing but she will know it in her gut. It is not possible to be a serial cheater and engage in an emotionally bonded relationship with your wife period. He upset the apple cart and now is paying for it. OP, you should work on yourself and forget the marriage for now.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

aine said:


> Please! He was cheating on her long before she ever cheated. A wife may not have the hard facts of what her WH is doing but she will know it in her gut. It is not possible to be a serial cheater and engage in an emotionally bonded relationship with your wife period. He upset the apple cart and now is paying for it. OP, you should work on yourself and forget the marriage for now.


I was referring to the general concept of "hardened wives" not ones involved with a cheater. Clearly , regardless of gender, cheating on a spouse will cause them to harden their hearts to the cheater.
Not sure I understand why there needs to be any gender distinction on this. Betrayed males will have the same feelings.
I thought the article that was referenced on Hardened Wives was about the general phenomena that some believes takes place where women are leaving husbands that they feel do not measure up. And, I think the reality is that in many of those cases, the man is doing perfectly fine, but the expectations are unrealistic.
You can see a prime example of someone promoting this notion that women only leave their husbands when the husbands are deficient, on the marriagebuilders site, where Willard Harley has an article on " Why Wives Leave Their Husbands". Nothing on why men leave women, as if women are never deficient in meeting needs.
Now, if you read Harley's stuff , it is incredibly obvious that he is sexist to the max, an old world dinosaur who believes in white night chivalry and male disposability.
For example, he advocates men tolerate the abuse of an affair and remain in his Plan A deal for years vs 6 months max for women. His rationale: women are so much more fragile (Ha!).
And, he tells betrayed men that it is perfectly alright if their cheater wife never apologizes and to, in fact expect that. Imagine going through infidelity and never getting an apology as part of reconciliation. Yet, men are supposed to take that crap.


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