# It is ok for wife to have male friend



## phin1983

My wife has a male friend that is our neighbor and works with her. They both work for the same school district, however she was transferred to another school starting this semester. He is married and we know each other very well. He he has a family and they come over for parties and get togethers. I did not have a problem with it until recently. I notice her texting alot recently. One night I woke up in the middle of the night and checked her phone, ( i feel bad about it). I found texting between them, he seems to be texting her everyday on how her day is going. they talk about work stuff and weekend stuff. I found one text that has me thinking. He asked her "Are we mtg", she responded "sure?". But have not found anything else. I have checked her phone and no messages. What should I do?. any advice would help.


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## sigma1299

Why do you feel bad about checking her phone. I never understand why people have an issue with this. There is nothing wrong with inspecting what you expect - it's just good business. 

Anyway. Two ways to go here, one is to do more investigating until you either prove or disprove that there is an issue. Second is to just talk to her about it. Say, "Honey, I noticed on your phone the other day how much you and OM are texting and I'm uncomfortable with it. Out of respect for me would you put some distance there." 

The problem with option two is that if there is something going on you just tipped your hand and she will likely 1. get mad at you for checking her phone, 2. tell you your crazy/controlling, and 3. take it further underground and make it even harder for your to prove and confront her. 

It certainly sounds like there's an emotional connection of some type there. Either way you need to deal with it right away, it will not get better by ignoring it.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Is it okay for her to have a male friend?

Sure.

Is it okay for her to make you uncomfortable by texting this cat constantly and possibly setting up a meeting without your knowledge?

Not a bit.

Sigma's option 2 is best. Don't come unglued, don't be like "I LOOKED AT YOUR PHONE WHAT ARE YOU DOING YAGGHHHHHH"- just say that "Honey, could you tell me what's up with OM?" When she says "What do you mean?" or whatever, just say that you seem to spending a lot of time texting him and, as Sigma said, you'd appreciate if she knocked it off out of respect for you. Don't make it about looking thru her phone- make it about the fact that she's getting too chummy with this dude.


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## phin1983

Thanks for the quick response, I am undecided on which option to go with , me and my wife have trusted each other for 16 years now. We have never questioned each other trust. I know she would be disappointing if I bring it up. I am confused , but I know I must get to the bottom of this. It has been bothering me lately. . Do you think is it ok for my wife to have a close male friend? I know my wife would have a problem if I had a close friend. i think i will go with the first option.


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## Scottt

It's OK for your wife to have a male friend, but obviously not this one! It's a good thing you checked her phone when you did. If he lives in the neighborhood, and they're taking things to the next level (with a meeting), there may not be any more messages. That doesn't mean things are OK.

The everyday texting is the problem here. Even if it's about mundane stuff, it's still not OK. That's what lovers do, or people who hope to become lovers. It's not the information so much as just to let the other person know they're interested. Think about it: How would you feel if some guy from work started texting you to say he let the cat out or was about to watch TV, or just to see how your day was going. It would be pretty creepy. But if a girl did it, you'd probably be flattered.

You might as well ask your wife what's up; it's obviously not innocent or she would have told you about the meeting. If this guy is someone you know, you should go ahead and ask him too. He may just back off if he knows you care. The longer you sit around waiting to see what else turns up, the more there's likely to be.


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## sigma1299

Personally I think anything other than an acquaintance of the opposite sex is problematic. There are lots of people who have close friends of the opposite sex and it's never an issue and then there are lots of people who fall into affairs with people that started as friends. IMO it's just borrowing trouble and better off avoided if possible. If my wife had a close male friend it would bother me. 

BTW - checking on your wife does not mean you don't trust her. It is simply making sure everything is as you believe it to be. I check my wife's phone periodically and I trust her whole heartedly. The path that you are about to go down still doesn't mean you don't trust her, but it does mean that you are uneasy about your relationship currently. Do what you must to get comfortable with what is happening - if anything. Even if you don't find anything I think she needs to slow it down with this guy some.

If you want some advice on how to investigate further jump over to the infidelity section, there are people over there who are masters at that stuff. Also, if she either suddenly locks her phone or won't let it out of her sight those are both major red flags for something bad going on. If either of those happen you will need to seriously up your concern and investigating.


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## LovesHerMan

Stop this cold. It is not OK for your wife to be texting a male friend every day and discussing when they will meet. This is the beginning of an emotional affair where he will be meeting her needs for attention that you should be meeting.

Your gut is telling you something is wrong: believe it. Tell her you know how easy it is to get involved with someone who provides attention, and you want to protect your marriage.

Entropy can tell you how to stop an emotional affair.


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## Scottt

sigma1299 said:


> Personally I think anything other than an acquaintance of the opposite sex is problematic. There are lots of people who have close friends of the opposite sex and it's never an issue and then there are lots of people who fall into affairs with people that started as friends. IMO it's just borrowing trouble and better off avoided if possible. If my wife had a close male friend it would bother me.


I agree. For married people, close friends of the opposite sex are just asking for trouble. Superficial friendships are fine; there's no problem with exchanging a few remarks with an opposite-sex coworker, or talking to neighbors for a couple of minutes if you see them outside. A good rule of thumb is, if you have to ask if it's OK, it isn't. Another huge red flag would be if your wife says, "We're just friends."


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## phin1983

lovesherman, you are properly right, lately I have been under a lot of stress, had to go see doctor about my insomnia. The dr recommend that I back off on my activities with my family, I two active kids in sports, and very elderly parents that I am look after. I have neglected my wife lately due to my involvement with other things. However I have talk to her about my situations. she seems supportive. this just got me off guard. thanks for the advice. 

sorry what do you mean by entorpy?


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## LovesHerMan

Entropy is a frequent poster here. Look at his threads and comments. His wife exposed his emotional affair with a co-worker, and he is grateful that she did.


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## RoseRed

phin1983 said:


> My wife has a male friend that is our neighbor and works with her. They both work for the same school district, however she was transferred to another school starting this semester. He is married and we know each other very well. He he has a family and they come over for parties and get togethers. I did not have a problem with it until recently. I notice her texting alot recently. One night I woke up in the middle of the night and checked her phone, ( i feel bad about it). I found texting between them, he seems to be texting her everyday on how her day is going. they talk about work stuff and weekend stuff. I found one text that has me thinking. He asked her "Are we mtg", she responded "sure?". But have not found anything else. I have checked her phone and no messages. What should I do?. any advice would help.


Its absolutely fine for your fine to have male friends, you know him, socialize with him... 

its obvious you don't trust your wife cuz you snooped in her phone records... you now did something behind her back too... you feel guilty cuz you know it wasn't right, that what the feeling 'bad' is all about....

the text could be they were meeting on work business... if he texts so much and it seems overly attentive, were her responses just polite and cordial? She may very well have her boundaries with this co-worker and holding them well... even if he is being very attentive... 

Its your call on what you want to believe and stand by it... 

1) disclose that you snooped in her phone, and by that action you are telling her you don't trust her, be prepared to lose her trust in you too. then there will be the fall out if she is innocent on not... it will be messy.. not easy.. you may get the answer you want.. or not... no guarentees with this... 

2) or you trust her. Be observant... be involved with her emotionally, be attentive... 

just my 2 cents...


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> Thanks for the quick response, I am undecided on which option to go with , me and my wife have trusted each other for 16 years now. We have never questioned each other trust. I know she would be disappointing if I bring it up. I am confused , but I know I must get to the bottom of this. It has been bothering me lately. . Do you think is it ok for my wife to have a close male friend? I know my wife would have a problem if I had a close friend. i think i will go with the first option.


EAs have very little to do with trust. Especially if there are weak boundaries. Like in your wifes case. I know that sounds weird but it is very true. If you do not intervene and get in front of this it will progress and your wife will be in a fog and will not be able to turn it around on her own. I know. I have been there. Realize that EAs are chemical. They are addictive. The WS will throw away 10, 20, and even 30+ years of faithfulness. They will insist but this is just my friend.

Either you act, or watch your marriage be destroyed. I am not being overly dramatic here. This is the way it is.

I know I cannot have close female friends. Your wife has just proved she cannot either. BTW, these things can escalate very quickly to PAs. But even if you engage before that, often it just rolls on through like an unstoppable frieght train. Think of her as being pulled into a black hole. If you wait too long , there is no pulling her back. It happens quickly.
Wait and see does not work. It enables.

Also be prepared for being called controlling, insecure and jealous. If your hear these you know you are on the right track.

Also, there are no secrets in marriage. You "snooping" is an act of love and one of responsibility for your relationship. Your wife needs your help. She will not see this at first.
You should not disclose your methods of snooping at this time. You will need them further. This is not about ensuring privacy. It is about saving the relationship.

We trust our spouses to not put themselves into these situations. Blind trust is follish and quite frankly lazy. This is time to be strong. To be the man and to not cater to political correctness.

There is a high likelihood that she will have to change her job. The only way to prevent that is to act quickly. It may already be toop late for that. Remember, jobs come and go. Marriages are important. The only way to break an affair that is fully going is for absolute NC and for her to go through withdrawal. It is about dopamine and oxytocin.


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## Entropy3000

lovesherman said:


> Entropy is a frequent poster here. Look at his threads and comments. His wife exposed his emotional affair with a co-worker, and he is grateful that she did.


Yes indeed. She pulled me from the abyss. She loved me enough to do this. She was smart enough to see the signs. She was strong enough to get my attention. She caught things early enough. It was not until I was well into withdrawal until I realized she was right and it had been an EA. I swore up and down we were just very good friends. And we were. But it had gotten into inappropriate and arguably unfaithful.

Partners need to look out for each other. EAs can happen. Mine was also a workplace EA. I needed my wife to intervene. I make no excuses for letting this happen. I am all the wiser for it and have much better boundaries now.

If it turns out to be innocent then take the opportunity to prevent this from going any further. It is well on its way. If there is a lot of texting that is a problem now. Cut it off before she ends up having to change her job .... or worse. Keep in ind this would destroy two families.

All I can say is that mine is a success story.


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## RoseRed

Oh yes Entropy posts quite often, his view is quite helpful and I appreciate his input... we often have our differences..

and I respectfully disagree...

OP has now called his wife's character in question... what Entropy calls "blind trust", I call 'faith'... In analogy, I believe in God, I have faith in Him, yet by pure analitical reasoning, it is impossible to know for sure what I will find upon my death. I choose to have faith... and do all in my heart and soul to follow the path He has shown me. It is up to you to decide which you are going to believe in. It has nothing to do with laziness. No one should be lazy in a marriage... Only you know your wife... if you think she is incapable and weak of character, then call her out... and then be prepared to go through all that entails. If you choose to have faith in her character... well.. you get my reasoning. Either you believe she is of good faithful heart and moral or you don't... 

Only you can decide...

best wishes..


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## jnj express

This not a matter of being nice, if your wife is cheating

If she is texting/talking to this guy more than once or twice a week---HE IS WAY PAST THE FRIEND STAGE

Ask yourself, how much time does she spend talking to her other friends???? Your answer will tell you your wife is being inappropriate

Have your talk with her, but do not be such a mr. nice-guy, that she would not take what you have to say seriously, she stops her contact with this guy----she is outside the mge., and not acting like a married woman in re: this guy.

There is a very, very, very thin line dividing friends from lovers, and if she crosses it---your life as you know it, is gone forever-----SO DO NOT TREAT THIS LIGHTLY

She probably sees this guy around the school district a couple of times a month, and/or they can get together, on their own, you will never know if they do, as you don't have access to their work situation

Be very wary!!!!!


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## WayTooAverage

phin1983 said:


> My wife has a male friend that is our neighbor and works with her. They both work for the same school district, however she was transferred to another school starting this semester. He is married and we know each other very well. He he has a family and they come over for parties and get togethers. I did not have a problem with it until recently. I notice her texting alot recently. One night I woke up in the middle of the night and checked her phone, ( i feel bad about it). I found texting between them, he seems to be texting her everyday on how her day is going. they talk about work stuff and weekend stuff. I found one text that has me thinking. He asked her "Are we mtg", she responded "sure?". But have not found anything else. I have checked her phone and no messages. What should I do?. any advice would help.


What does "mtg" mean... "meeting today gorgeous?" I have had many close platonic friends. There was always an underlining feeling of affection. I was best friends with a married woman years ago. I loved her with my heart, but in a sexual way. But I had to fight an emotional bond with her. It is very naive and careless to think our husbands or wives can be close friends with someone of the opposite sex. It took me a long time to realize this.


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## Open4it

Why do they have each other's cell #s in the first place?

You know, my friends who are all married don't have men's cell #s or emails.
Why would they?
Leave work at work. 
If you want friends, get some chicks together for a hen party. If you want a man's advice, ask your husband.
If you have marital problems, discuss them with a professional.

This is not to say that you can't have male acquaintances but the friends thing is verboten after marriage IMO. You definitely shouldn't be inviting them in to your house through a phone or computer without your husband knowing about it. That's just wrong.
Trust? How about transparency and boundaries.


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## Entropy3000

Let me be very clear that this is NOT a character issue from my point of view. This is usually NOT something the WS does on purpose. It is not a mistake either. It is usually something that happens to a naive spouse. They are getting needs met and it feels ok. It does not feel like they are betraying anyone. They have a close friend and they feel ok with it because of the dopamine and oxytocin. 

Yes, they should know better, but it happens slowly. It starts out innocently. Slowly as needs are being met they look forward to seeing the other individual, feelings of affection grow. Their smile. Their voice. Thier attention. These make them just a little happier. 
My ego was too large for my own good. I was Superman. My character was too good to be unfaithful. I was also stupid for believing this. 

Over time this can start to become inappropriate. *This is where boundaries are too weak or have been broken.* They share thoughts with each other. Not sexual but personal. Close friend thoughts. Texting / emailing increases dramatically. They miss each other when they are apart. This behavior should become noticiable to a well connected and caring spouse. If that spouse is timid then both spouses have failed each other. The WS, the one for getting too attached to someone outside the marriage and the BS for not engaging. This is not a time to wait. This is not a time to worry about privacy. This is when things can be handled.

Now, I agree people should know better at this point, but needs are being met and the chemicals are flowing and it feels ok. Someone who has been through this before will recognize it for what it is. But then again that person would have known not to let this happen to begin with. This is only a character issue to me if this happens more than once. If you have not been through this I can understand how you might think this is just someone behaving badly on purpose. This is why the BSs say my wife / husband would never do this. It is not in their character. Then BAM, they see their spouse as a different person. A possessed zombie.

As the addiction grows it gets into the unfaithful areas. i.e. they start meeting for lunch. They show affection. Maybe a hug that lingers a tad longer than with anyone else. It can stay here for a very long time or escalate quickly. The choices that are made here become dubious indeed. Perhaps they dress a little differently. This is being unfaithful. This is very wrong.

Borderline cheating can begin. i.e. they may lie by omission about meeting at lunch or at a bar This has become a secret. If they are challenged here they may not tell the whole truth. This can stay at a level for an extended period or it can go on into a full blown PA quickly. There is not excuse of course for this. It is a betrayal. They are in a fog. It is going to take a serious effort now to bring them back to reality.

All I am saying is that a partner can become vulnerable to an EA for a number of reasons. They may have no intentions of being unfaithful. But they allow themselves to become emotionally connected to another. This is unfaithful. I am saying that the other spouse can help them. It is not about trust. We can trust that if our spouse becomes emotionally distant from us and connected to another and has weak boundaries that they will eventually be in a position to fall in love with another. This is my opinion. Many will disagree.

This happened to me umteen years ago. My wife called me on it. It was early enough that just her calling me on it, got me turned around. I had to go through withdrawal. We have now been married 33 years. Our marriage is better now than it ever has been. It took me a long time to forgive myself. I finally did so at my wifes urging. She loved me enough to see what was happening and to pull me from the abyss. She could have dumped me and who could blame her? No one. Not even me. I emphasize that she cuaght my situation early on. She validated her feelings by checking my emails. Emails I thought were innocent. Later on however I could see that they were inappropriate. I was then out of the fog.

If I let myself do this again, I would be demonstrating bad character. My wife and I did His Needs Her Needs after this and it was eye opening. Boudaries were set. I no longer have close female friends. At the very least I cannot handle this. I do have female friends. But they are kept at a reasonable distance. My wife is my best female friend by a huge degree.


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## phin1983

I appreciate everyone's input on this,it, I am in cross roads on what i need to do. Like some of the post said, if i bring it up and i am wrong, our trust is gone. we have know this family for quite a while, around 10 yrs. but if i do not do anything my marriage can be in jeopardy. Very very confused. Maybe i need to keep on poking to find out more. He had not texted her for about 5 days, but he did yesterday, asking how her weekend was. She replied busy with kids and a big party we are planning. He responded you are going to need a de-stresser. She responded you are right! end of conversation. It is killing me going thru her texts. My question is do you think she does not feel she is doing nothing wrong. why she just not erase them or am i going thru denial?


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## SockPuppet

phin1983 said:


> Thanks for the quick response, I am undecided on which option to go with , me and my wife have trusted each other for 16 years now. We have never questioned each other trust. I know she would be disappointing if I bring it up. I am confused , but I know I must get to the bottom of this. It has been bothering me lately. . Do you think is it ok for my wife to have a close male friend? I know my wife would have a problem if I had a close friend. i think i will go with the first option.


Id think if you were to properly bring this up as a boundary issue and not a, "whats going on with the other guy?" issue you will have better success.


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## Entropy3000

SockPuppet said:


> Id think if you were to properly bring this up as a boundary issue and not a, "whats going on with the other guy?" issue you will have better success.


Yes.

Not dealing with this is a big FAIL. It is not manning up for sure.
Rest assured this problem will not go away on its own.

Yes the boundary should be addressed. She is too close to this guy. It will progress if left this way.

Love trumps this false trust issue. Again she needs his help.


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> I appreciate everyone's input on this,it, I am in cross roads on what i need to do. Like some of the post said, if i bring it up and i am wrong, our trust is gone. we have know this family for quite a while, around 10 yrs. but if i do not do anything my marriage can be in jeopardy. Very very confused. Maybe i need to keep on poking to find out more. He had not texted her for about 5 days, but he did yesterday, asking how her weekend was. She replied busy with kids and a big party we are planning. He responded you are going to need a de-stresser. She responded you are right! end of conversation. It is killing me going thru her texts. *My question is do you think she does not feel she is doing nothing wrong. why she just not erase them or am i going thru denial?:confused*:


Read my above post on the stages. The WS does not honestly think they are doing anything wrong. The issue is that there are inadequate boundaries.

Soooo, you challenge the boundary and not the persons. 

This sounds like if you deal with this now you can avoid the real troubles. Again it is not about trust. It is about love and taking care of each other.

You should keep checking. I believe you have a enough to engage this before it gets into the unfaithful area.


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## Entropy3000

WayTooAverage said:


> What does "mtg" mean... "meeting today gorgeous?" I have had many close platonic friends. There was always an underlining feeling of affection. I was best friends with a married woman years ago. I loved her with my heart, but in a sexual way. But I had to fight an emotional bond with her. It is very naive and careless to think our husbands or wives can be close friends with someone of the opposite sex. It took me a long time to realize this.


MTG usually just means meeting.

If they work together in the same department this can be very innocent.

If it means they have a personal meeting then this is not a great thing. But I would not make that leap at this point. I would file it away in my mind for later use depending on additional information.


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## Halien

phin1983 said:


> I appreciate everyone's input on this,it, I am in cross roads on what i need to do. Like some of the post said, if i bring it up and i am wrong, our trust is gone. we have know this family for quite a while, around 10 yrs. but if i do not do anything my marriage can be in jeopardy. Very very confused. Maybe i need to keep on poking to find out more. He had not texted her for about 5 days, but he did yesterday, asking how her weekend was. She replied busy with kids and a big party we are planning. He responded you are going to need a de-stresser. She responded you are right! end of conversation. It is killing me going thru her texts. My question is do you think she does not feel she is doing nothing wrong. why she just not erase them or am i going thru denial?


I don't think it matters if nothing is actually going on. It is about boundaries. Your wife wouldn't seriously consider it okay if you fostered a close relationship with another woman, would she? In my opinion, it needs to be a discussion of boundaries, but not one where you approach it from a perspective of vulnerablity, like you are worried about her arguing that it is nothing more, then it is therefore okay. Tell her that for the sake of argument, change the identity to another man that you know. Would it be okay to receive those same texts from this guy?(read some of the texts to her) If not, then it is obvious that she has selected this man for a relationship like this. Then, pick an attractive woman you know. Ask her if it is really okay for you to receive texts like that from this woman? If you cannot generically substitute another man for these types of conversations without it feeling wrong, then it is wrong.


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## phin1983

Thanks Entropy3000,
What seems odd is my wife text me last week and told me she missed me,I told her that I missed her but her noticed different, i told her that i felt she was getting tired of me , she replied and said" sorry for making feel that way. It is far from the truth "and said she loved me very much and would never be tired of me. I told her no need to apologize and she said I believe there is. I told her I loved and will be there for her. she said it was nice to hear that and meant more than i can imagine. 
Like i said , i am very involved with my kids and elderly parents, and maybe guilty of not spending as much time as she wants. I am making changes, by spending more time with her doing little nice things. What do you make out of this?

Thanks again


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> Thanks Entropy3000,
> What seems odd is my wife text me last week and told me she missed me,I told her that I missed her but her noticed different, i told her that i felt she was getting tired of me , she replied and said" sorry for making feel that way. It is far from the truth "and said she loved me very much and would never be tired of me. I told her no need to apologize and she said I believe there is. I told her I loved and will be there for her. she said it was nice to hear that and meant more than i can imagine.
> Like i said , i am very involved with my kids and elderly parents, and maybe guilty of not spending as much time as she wants. I am making changes, by spending more time with her doing little nice things. What do you make out of this?
> 
> Thanks again


This is not your fault first off. Never at any point in my EA did I stop loving my wife.

Even in the best of circumstances a spouse can connect with others emtionally. They do not have to be especially vulnerable.

In my case I was spending so much time at work with my co-workers, I did not give myself the opportunity to meet my wife's needs or for her to meet mine. Totally on me. 

So that is why you hear us saying it is a boundary issue. She may be very happy with you. It does not mean there is a problem with your marriage. It does not mean you are not meeting her needs. It just means she is spenidng time with someone else and has an emotional connection. It is not evil per se. It is just unwise. It can actually become a cause of problems in your marriage. 

If the man is a predator type he will try to undermine your marriage. The way predators operate is to create an EA with a married woman. To be her friend first. I don't think this guy is a predator from the information you have provided. He could be. I think however he is much like your wife. Good intentions aside things still can easily get out of hand whether he is a predator or not. He will have the same addiction your wife has for her.

In my case I was already changing jobs. If I was not I would have had to find a new job anyway.

Long term it is always good to make your marriage the #1 priority. But do not think for one minute that once an affair starts this is the way to stop the affair. This just creates cake eaters. Do not be too Beta. A wife is needing a man with the right balance of Alpha / Beta for her. It of course varies woman to woman. But what seems most common is that women are tuned off by overly Beta men and excited by more Alpha traits. Alpha traits cause the dopamine. This is the I am in love with you chemical. The Oxytocin is created from comfort. The more Beta elements. She is already comfortable with him as a friend so this is the oxtocin Beta part. However, as feelings grow she can start getting dopamine from her interactions with him. You must be her primary and overwhelming source for dopamine. 

*The danger here is that she Loves You But Is Not In Love With You*. I am not saying this is how she feels now.

So yes, spend more quality time with her. Do *His Needs Her Needs and set some boundaries. Soon! * Also look into www.marriedmansexlife.com.

Some say you need to spend around 15 hours a week with each other to properly maintain your bond.

But I emphasize that you should nurture your relationship but you must stay in tune also and help your spouse from being seduced into an improper relationship. Boundaries help with this immensely.

What do I think of her comments? I think she realizes she is a tad conflicted. Take this as your wife asking for a little help. Yes she does love you but she is struggling a little inside and felt the need to reaffirm her love for you. So work with her on this in a loving but firm way. Let her know that she means the world to you, but that you believe her current boundaries as it pertains to close male friends in gernal are unacceptable to you. Tell her you have just realized this. Ask her to keep her relationshiop with him totally professional. Do this is a firm way and do not beg. Do not be judgemental either. It is a loving act.


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## phin1983

Entropy,
What do you mean by this?
The danger here is that she Loves You But Is Not In Love With You.
thanks


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> Entropy,
> What do you mean by this?
> The danger here is that she Loves You But Is Not In Love With You.
> thanks


The in love passionate feelings come from attractions to another. We associate these with a dopamine response in our brain. This is what being in love is all about. 

Loving someone is when they provide you with comfort. It is an attachment that provides the oxytocin in our brains.

It is VERY common in affairs for the WS to tell their spouse that they have fallen out of love with them. That "I Love You But I Am Not In Love With You". Even without an affair this occurs often. 

When we are in love with someone we ache for them when they are not with us. We miss them. If we are away from them we start going into withdrawal. This is why a lot of texting is a problem indicator.

I love my wife, my children, other relatives and friends. I am in love with my wife. But being in love is something that must be continually renewed as well.

Meeting needs can provide our spouses with the comfort they need to have intimacy with us. We then need to provide the attraction to them for them to be in love with us. It requires a combination of things. It is natural to become comfortable with a spouse and lose your passion for them over time.


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## LovesHerMan

You're getting great advice, Phin. If your wife gives you the I love you speech but. . . she means that she loves you for your past shared history, but the spark of your marriage is gone. Do not let things get to this point.


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## Jellybeans

Without concrete proof of an affair, you have nothing to go on.

The bottom line is that you have concerns over her friendship with this guy. So voice them. You are entitled to as her husband to give your opinion on the matter. Tell her it makes you uncomfortable.


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## Unsure in Seattle

^This. Bottom line, regardless of if she's done wrong or not, she's making you uncomfortable with this relationship. As I said, you don't have to even bring up the phone... you have the right to tell her that your uncomforatable and you need to check that the proper boundaries are in place.


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## jnj express

She can tell you anything she wants---she is placating you

You have to deal with this---she must stop contact with this guy---he is a stranger to your family, and she should not be discussing private matters with him

You really do not know what might be going on with the 2 of them, but as long as contact keeps up---you have a problem

You also might tell the other guy, you will go to the school district, and tell them he is homewrecking, by messing around with a married teacher---they will take action, for they do not want a cheating scandal on their hands, so he needs to stop right now

But bottom line it is your wife you have to deal with, she is the cheater---he is just helping her to cheat


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## Jellybeans

^ It has not been confirmed that she is cheating. 

All he has to go on is that she is texting the guy. And he has even confronted or spoken to her about that yet.

And until he does... his concerns will remain intact.


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## Entropy3000

Jellybeans said:


> ^ It has not been confirmed that she is cheating.
> 
> All he has to go on is that she is texting the guy. And he has even confronted or spoken to her about that yet.
> 
> And until he does... his concerns will remain intact.


I don't get the feeling that she is cheating. Just in an EA, hopefully the very beginning. Not that an EA is great but there is a broad range to that.


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## jnj express

For those of you, who doubt this is an EA, no matter how strong---define friend to yourself, and then think about the normal parameters you have with your friends, and how much time you actually spend talking to them.

His wife is way beyond the normal here, even if just whispereing nothings to each other, it is time she should be spending with her family, and everyone of you know there is just a thin fine line between friends and lovers---as long as they keep talking, things become more involved, and heavier in the way of intensness, and passion-----you all know what I am talking about

He has enuff right now to stop this, and it needs to be stopped!!!!


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## meson

I think that Entropy is correct here. It is not clear that this has progressed to active cheating by your wife. It does seem like the fellow is escalating the contact inappropriately though. I think that going ballistic will not achieve the results you want. I recommend, in addition to the others, that need to discuss this with her and set boundaries. It can be managed. Having your spouse know that you are looking out for your marriage is not a bad thing if done with love. Knowing that you are being scrutinized can help keep things in order and out of danger because they will consider the appearance of actions as well as the actions themselves.

I had gone down the road of the EA and pulled back in time. I disclosed to my wife and we have transparency and have talked about boundaries. In my case I am still friends with the OW as is my wife. The first discussions will be really hard but they will become easier as time goes on. Some boundaries that may affect you down the road you may not even know about yet. I triggered one of my wife’s unmentioned boundaries recently and because we have gotten into the habit of communicating and because of transparency it was noticed and resolved more easily than other issues that were less important.


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## Jellybeans

jnj express said:


> For those of you, who doubt this is an EA, no matter how strong---define friend to yourself, and then think about the normal parameters you have with your friends, and how much time you actually spend talking to them.
> 
> His wife is way beyond the normal here, even if just whispereing nothings to each other


Again, it hasn't been confirmed it's an EA. He hasn't even confronted her yet. I don't recall reading the part in his thread where he said they are "whispering nothings to eachother." 

Again, until he confronts her or asks her, his concerns will remain just that and he won't have a resolution to his concerns.


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## phin1983

Guy, thanks for all your support . i do not have anyone i can talk to about this, and u guys are my only vent. i have not confronted my wife, i do not know how.I guess i love her to much, very confused. I am trying to work out a plan to bring it up . We have know this family for a long time. My wife seems fine at home never imagined this. thanks for listening.


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## Energy

I posted up here last week about what to do about my wife's seemingly best friend, who is this dude from her work. My situation may be a bit different, as we have all hung out as a group numerous times (me and my wife with him and his wife), and though I put up with his occasionally drunken flirtyness, it was his recent activity (over the past year or two) of more texts and wanting to go out to lunch with my wife outside of the office. My wife was always up front about everything and didn't hide anything, and I didn't want to betray her trust by pestering her about it.

But I couldn't get comfortable with it, and finally posted on this site cuz I didn't know who to talk to. The first response I got was to confront her and establish boundaries. So I did that. And while she was defensive that nothing would ever happen, she respected my wishes and guidelines were set. Kind of tough to do when we see them as a couple alot, but its the one-on-one meetings that I never liked. Now I have a comfortableness about their friendship because I know it will never go past a certain point, and any outside meetings are done with me as part of a group.

That's a long way to get to the point - but you will never be comfortable unless you confront her about it. So yeah you might fight for a night, but its worth it.


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## sigma1299

I wouldn't think of it as a "confrontation" that implies that there is something illicit going on and it may only be something inappropriate. I'd think of it as a conversation and a stop to make sure you're both on the same page. I'm kind of with everyone so far as I think they are all basically saying the same thing just differently. Is a full blown EA possibly going on - yes. Do I think that's what's happening - not really at this point. But I do think it's inappropriate and she needs to modify her behavior, if for no other reason than that the person she committed to "for better or worse" is uncomfortable. If you lay it out calmly and rationally - as you have here - and she goes crazy or refuses to change her behavior then I'd get a whole lot more concerned that she was emotionally into this OM to the point that it constitutes and EA. If she responds that way you've pretty much got enough to confront right there and demand that she go no contact. I'd think positive and go into it believing she will say, gosh honey I didn't realize it but now that you've pointed it out I see it and I'll change it.


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## LovesHerMan

Phin:

You seem very worried about offending your wife. Think of it as protecting your marriage. She will love to see that you are strong, with firm boundaries, that you love her enough to keep your marriage strong. 

Think what you will say ahead of time. Find a quiet, calm time and tell her that you are concerned that her friendship may be becoming an emotional affair. Ask to see all of her texts, get her password to all accounts.

Spend lots of time together doing fun things you both enjoy. You need to make sure that you are both meeting each other's needs to keep your marriage strong.


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## phin1983

Thanks, my fear is she going to ask me how i found out, and will have to tell her. that means i have been going behind her back issue. I have been writing down all the texts down. I knew they were friends, because they worked together. but the verbish on some of the text make uncomfortable and it being daily. I just do not want to be a seen as a checking up on her. I do believe i have enough, but just have to get the courage to do it. thanks again guys. I am trying the entropy approach, I am being more attentive, by sending her texts during the day. she is responding very happy to that. I would always get involved in my work and never text or email during the day. maybe part is my fault. How these things mess with your mind. thanks


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## CH

The more you stick your head in the sand, the deeper it gets. Either fix it now or cry later if it's turns into a full blown EA or even a PA.

You're sending her texts also, she's getting it from you and from the OM, the best of both worlds. Just because you start texting her more doesn't mean she'll stop texting the OM because you're allowing it by shoving her head up where the sun don't shine.

My wife was passive, she could have caught my affair before it became a PA, but she kept quiet and hoped it would just go away and everything would be back to normal. I got more sex, treated like a king. But guess what, I got sex from the OW also, the OW treated me like a king also, **** I was the MAN. 2 women taking care of all my needs, what's there not to like.

Set boundaries and let her know texting the OM is making you uncomfortable and she has to back off before things get out of hand. HE's JUST A FRIEND I CAN TALK TO, YOU SHOULD BE HER FRIEND THAT SHE TALKS TO!


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## Entropy3000

Jellybeans said:


> Again, it hasn't been confirmed it's an EA. He hasn't even confronted her yet. I don't recall reading the part in his thread where he said they are "whispering nothings to eachother."
> 
> Again, until he confronts her or asks her, his concerns will remain just that and he won't have a resolution to his concerns.


I agree, but I would add that an EA has started if there is a large amount of contact via texting, emails and phone even if the content of the chatter is still ok. It indicates an inappropriate emotional bond that is well above the friend level. This is the absolute best time to deal with an EA if it could not be prevented via boundaries.

We just do not have a large amount of chatter as friends like we do when there is an EA starting.


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## Entropy3000

Energy said:


> I posted up here last week about what to do about my wife's seemingly best friend, who is this dude from her work. My situation may be a bit different, as we have all hung out as a group numerous times (me and my wife with him and his wife), and though I put up with his occasionally drunken flirtyness, it was his recent activity (over the past year or two) of more texts and wanting to go out to lunch with my wife outside of the office. My wife was always up front about everything and didn't hide anything, and I didn't want to betray her trust by pestering her about it.
> 
> But I couldn't get comfortable with it, and finally posted on this site cuz I didn't know who to talk to. The first response I got was to confront her and establish boundaries. So I did that. And while she was defensive that nothing would ever happen, she respected my wishes and guidelines were set. Kind of tough to do when we see them as a couple alot, but its the one-on-one meetings that I never liked. Now I have a comfortableness about their friendship because I know it will never go past a certain point, and any outside meetings are done with me as part of a group.
> 
> That's a long way to get to the point - but you will never be comfortable unless you confront her about it. So yeah you might fight for a night, but its worth it.


That is awesome to hear my friend!


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> Thanks, my fear is she going to ask me how i found out, and will have to tell her. that means i have been going behind her back issue. I have been writing down all the texts down. I knew they were friends, because they worked together. but the verbish on some of the text make uncomfortable and it being daily. I just do not want to be a seen as a checking up on her. I do believe i have enough, but just have to get the courage to do it. thanks again guys. I am trying the entropy approach, I am being more attentive, by sending her texts during the day. she is responding very happy to that. I would always get involved in my work and never text or email during the day. maybe part is my fault. How these things mess with your mind. thanks


If you have an initimate relationship with your spouse you can talk to them openly about your feelings. If you can't then that is a big red flag of its own. You should not have to worry about offending your spouse by showing concern for the relationship. This lack of intimacy could be one reason why she is bonding with another "friend". Someone to be close to. As husbands we need to be that person. We should be able to discuss these things. It is not a confrontation. We are married to each other and have comitted to a life together. You should be her best male friend if not her best friend.

As we suggested this is a boundary issue. Again, a couple should be transparent. They should feel very comfortable with as you say "checking up" on one another. That is about love. You checked her messages for a reason. What was that? Use that as your reason for bringing up the boundary discussion. Pretty simple.

Remember we have suggested that this be about a general boundary as it pertains to friends of the opposite sex. You can then segue this if need be to the realtionship she has with the OM.

If you are still reluctant, then just say you were chatting with someone on this topic and that after some thought you feel you guys need to discuss some boundaries around opposite sex friends.

Keep in mind the OM is not reluctant to reach out and interact with your wife. This is probably an emotional need for your wife. If you do not fill it someone else will. So either you can take care of this now of deal with it after it blows up.

-----

One hand: Feeling bad about checking wife's texts. In a good relationship this is not an issue. Love and transparency rule the day.

Other hand: Feeling bad because you were afraid to talk to your wife and now find out she not only had a full blown EA but has progressed to a PA. Compare this feeling with the above. Feeling that somehow you violated her privacy by snooping or that your wife is being violated sexually by an OM. Not in anyway saying this is what is happening, but it is what can happen when husbands do not engage early enough and let things run their course.

Remember that we have seen on this forum that highly Beta men are cheated on and treated as doormats all too often. They are submissive and afraid to act. It is a very Beta behavior to be so overly concerned that you peeked at her texts. An Alpha male realizes he has every right to peek at the texts. You had reason to check. Manning up for your relationship is what counts. You will get no points from your wife for not stepping up. After all after peeking you got even more concerned. C'mon!!! Take charge. We men are supposed to c0ckblock other men who are making moves on our wives. Be more concerend over that than offending anyone. Trust me, most other men will not worry about offending you if he can progress this to a PA with other guys wife. They are jut not that noble and do not fight fair. If you came home and heard something going on in your bedroom would you feel bad about checking up on it?


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## Jellybeans

Entropy3000 said:


> I agree, but I would add that an EA has started if there is a large amount of contact via texting, emails and phone even if the content of the chatter is still ok. It indicates an inappropriate emotional bond that is well above the friend level. This is the absolute best time to deal with an EA if it could not be prevented via boundaries.


I don't dispute that. Nonetheless, I still maintain: until he brings it up how it's making him uncomfortable, NOTHING will change. 

So he can either sit idly by and be upset and stifle his feelings or he can actually say something about it.


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## Entropy3000

Jellybeans said:


> I don't dispute that. Nonetheless, I still maintain: until he brings it up how it's making him uncomfortable, NOTHING will change.
> 
> So he can either sit idly by and be upset and stifle his feelings or he can actually say something about it.


Yup. Frustrating to watch sometimes ....


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## Jellybeans

Absolutely! It makes you go :scratchhead:


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## sigma1299

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Jump in there Phin and bring into the open. It ain't going away on it's own and it won't get better by ignoring it!!


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## phin1983

Entropy, thanks I agree , I need to man up.


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## Chaparral

phin1983 said:


> Entropy, thanks I agree , I need to man up.



Well, HALLELUJAH!! I think he gets it now.


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## phin1983

I will do it friday, wish me luck thanks guys


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## Jellybeans

Good luck


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## Chaparral

OhhShiney said:


> This is a great description of alternatives. I had not been snooping, but while we were surfing the web in bed,noticed daily postings of an ex on her facebook news feed. I brought up that I had a problem with her seeing her ex's posts every day.
> 
> RoseRed is 100% right. The expression of my lack of trust lead to a rather big blow up, and scarred an otherwise perfect relationship. She said she no longer could trust me saying that I loved and respected her, and that I came across as being controlling. It was rather difficult to apologize my way out of this one, and I still regret my blabbing. There was NO evidence whatsoever of any kind of active contact (conversations, etc).
> 
> She did end up hiding her ex's posts from her news feed. It didn't matter how rational it seemed to me to mention her news feed, that seeing his daily posts would remind her of him and visa versa. And that I intentionally don't friend my own ex because I have no interest in seeing her on my news feed every day, or her knowing what i'm up to.
> 
> In the end, I had to realize that trust is a huge part of any relationship, and unless there is real evidence that there is a problem, it may be best to not bring it up.
> 
> This was a hard lesson.



If my wife hid her ex's posts it would simply prove she had something to hide and that I could no longer trust anything she said or did.

I seem to be missing the logic in your post.

:scratchhead:


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## LovesHerMan

Be careful OhhShiney. The cheater's script always has them use the C word: you are trying to control me!


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## sigma1299

I have to politely say I don't agree with OhhShiney and RoseRed. I think it is good business to inspect what you expect. I believe that absolute blind trust is not good. If you expressed to your wife that you were uncomfortable with her Ex being on her FB page - which IMO is completely reasonable - and she responded that you were being controlling and that she could no longer trust that you loved her I think she is the one who acted wrong not you. 

I think expressing that something makes you uncomfortable is an expression of trust. That I trust you enough to understand when something makes me uncomfortable, to consider my feelings, and to put our marriage before your pride if I inquire. Obviously delivery is everything in this and in the face of no evidence that someone has done something wrong is should be done without accusation or judgement. 

Just my opinion and obviously there are two camps on this issue and both believe there's is correct - that's why they make chocolate and vanilla 

And all of the above doesn't change that fact that the level of communication between phin's wife and this OM is inappropriate for a married woman.


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## Entropy3000

OhhShiney said:


> This is a great description of alternatives. I had not been snooping, but while we were surfing the web in bed,noticed daily postings of an ex on her facebook news feed. I brought up that I had a problem with her seeing her ex's posts every day.
> 
> RoseRed is 100% right. The expression of my lack of trust lead to a rather big blow up, and scarred an otherwise perfect relationship. She said she no longer could trust me saying that I loved and respected her, and that I came across as being controlling. It was rather difficult to apologize my way out of this one, and I still regret my blabbing. There was NO evidence whatsoever of any kind of active contact (conversations, etc).
> 
> She did end up hiding her ex's posts from her news feed. It didn't matter how rational it seemed to me to mention her news feed, that seeing his daily posts would remind her of him and visa versa. And that I intentionally don't friend my own ex because I have no interest in seeing her on my news feed every day, or her knowing what i'm up to.
> 
> In the end, I had to realize that trust is a huge part of any relationship, and unless there is real evidence that there is a problem, it may be best to not bring it up.
> 
> This was a hard lesson.


How does one scar a perfect relationship by asking your spouse to not be connected to her ex on facebook? Why was her ex friended on her facebook? Did they have children together? Why would she hide his posts and not just unfriend them? I would argue if a relationship were perfect you could trust the other spouse to not friend an ex to begin with and if discussed they would not blow up and call you controlling. That does not sound perfect to me.

So you and she have different boundaries as it pertains to the opposite sex. I realize you choose a more stringent boundary by not friending ex's. You see the problem there. But you don't feel your wife should also honor your same concerns? Were you trusting her to set the appropriate boundary or had you never agreed to that? Having boundaries agreed to and properly set can avoid all of this drama. This would be something one would expect in a good relationship.

I do sincerely hope this works out for you. I am sorry your wife did not respect your right to question this.

Background thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/24066-wife-not-fond-foreplay-touching.html

This is her third marriage. You guys have not been married long. Which ex is the one she has friended? The 1st or 2nd husband? Per your thread it would matter. I think your position should be taken in context of this background thread. Meaning that the 2nd most recent ex was a serial cheater. Past lovers on facebook are a concern for many people.


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## Entropy3000

sigma1299 said:


> I have to politely say I don't agree with OhhShiney and RoseRed. I think it is good business to inspect what you expect. I believe that absolute blind trust is not good. If you expressed to your wife that you were uncomfortable with her Ex being on her FB page - which IMO is completely reasonable - and she responded that you were being controlling and that she could no longer trust that you loved her I think she is the one who acted wrong not you.
> 
> *I think expressing that something makes you uncomfortable is an expression of trust. That I trust you enough to understand when something makes me uncomfortable, to consider my feelings, and to put our marriage before your pride if I inquire*. Obviously delivery is everything in this and in the face of no evidence that someone has done something wrong is should be done without accusation or judgement.
> 
> Just my opinion and obviously there are two camps on this issue and both believe there's is correct - that's why they make chocolate and vanilla
> 
> And all of the above doesn't change that fact that the level of communication between phin's wife and this OM is inappropriate for a married woman.


I like the way you expressed this. We should have enough trust in our spouses to be able to speak with them about our concerns and feel that we will be respected for doing so.

I am seeing some husbands are afraid to even talk to their wives about things impacting their relationships. This type of fear is a huge red flag. If you are truly initmate with someone you can discuss such things. Our spouses are not just some stranger sitting across from us on a bus.


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## Energy

She's not going to divorce you over looking through her phone. And do your best to keep the focus on her activities, not solely on the fact that you snooped. When the fight dies down though and you talk about something concrete, set some boundaries - you can do it without being a cave man. It's not like she can't talk to someone else - its just that that kind of communication makes you uncomfortable.


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## Scottt

phin1983 said:


> Thanks, my fear is she going to ask me how i found out, and will have to tell her. that means i have been going behind her back issue.


OK, you went behind your wife's back and looked at her phone without telling her. She, on the other hand, has been carrying on a correspondence via text messages and making plans to meet with this guy, who's obviously hitting on her. And she's been doing all of this behind your back. Seriously, dude, which one do you think is worse?

That's not to say that she won't throw the "snooping" charge at you, though. When she does, just be sure to stay focused on what she's been up to. Don't let her change the subject. And if I were you, I wouldn't wait till Friday, either. A lot can happen between now and then.


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## Chaparral

I may be mistaken but around here its pretty much taken for granted that husband and wife do not lock their phones, they share all their passwords, they don't keep secrets, and privacy is for the bathroom: not phone calls, Facebook, texting, emailing etc.

That's why they say a marriage is when two people become one.


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## phin1983

Thanks all of you for the advice, i have vented with someone and i feel better, I know I have to face this issue. You see i believe I have a good wife, she has done everything to make me happy , except this, i know if it continues I will lose her completely , something I always took for granted. 
i have been reading some of the HNHR and I am learning some things. yes i have not been doing some the things to meet her emotional needs. she has told me you are a great lover and father. but not husband,( she says i am not romantic and that i only make time for my kids and not her.) she is always asking when i can take her out dancing , but i am always to busy .) What i am reading is making sense to me. some other guy that she works with is telling what she wants to hear from me. I thought keeping my wife satisfied and being a good father was good enough. I am find out it not. . 
I will bring up the boundary issue and let her know how i feel and make a change on my part. lets see how it goes.


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## Locard

If one finds themselves in a possition where you cannot take your spouses phone, facebook, whatever, and go through it in front of them without a blow up then that spouse is in a possition of power over you. 

Think about it, you are being "told" where you stand if this would be a "big deal". Call it alpha or whatever.


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## oldflyguy

I am not sure what to think here...

agree she should have friends to talk to..
agree they could be males...

What would hurt to talk to the guy txt'n her...
let him know, you know....
How would his wife feel....

yes, be a man and take care of the wifes needs, show her she is "very" important in your life....

this is what I would do....

OFG


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## CandieGirl

No, it's bloody NOT ok! Have read many of the replies, and must agree...op sex friends outside of marriage really is just asking for trouble...


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## phin1983

Well, I did it. done and over, Entropy, use your advice and brought it up. ( boundaries.) Was rough at the begging, but we talked and she listened and understood were I was coming from, once I told her to put her self in my shoes. We both had to take half a day of work off. but we survived. thanks again. She actually surprised me and down load the HNHN to her kindle. thanks again.


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## MrK

Hmmmmm..... From near crisis to happy ending in 12 hours. Why do I not think this is over?


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## Entropy3000

phin1983 said:


> Well, I did it. done and over, Entropy, use your advice and brought it up. ( boundaries.) Was rough at the begging, but we talked and she listened and understood were I was coming from, once I told her to put her self in my shoes. We both had to take half a day of work off. but we survived. thanks again. She actually surprised me and down load the HNHN to her kindle. thanks again.


Ok. A good start in the right direction. Embrace her attitude but have a healthy skepitcism. Trust but verify.

I think it was a good idea to take the time off from work. That shows a sense of urgency and and priority.

Yeah turning the situation around often makes a good point. We can fall into the it is ok for me but you better not do it syndrome.

Be aware that if she was into an EA there is some withdrawal and she will have a tendency to backslide. So keep an eye on things.

Good luck. Let us know how things progress.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Good for you; I hope you managed to nip this in the bud.

Be vigilant.


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## sigma1299

Entropy3000 said:


> Ok. A good start in the right direction. Embrace her attitude but have a healthy skepitcism. Trust but verify.
> 
> I think it was a good idea to take the time off from work. That shows a sense of urgency and and priority.
> 
> Yeah turning the situation around often makes a good point. We can fall into the it is ok for me but you better not do it syndome.
> 
> Be aware that if she was into an EA there is some withdrawal and she will have a tendency to backslide. So keep an eye on things.
> 
> Good luck. Let us know how things progress.


Listen to this and take heed.

Good Move!! Just don't turn a blind eye quite yet.


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## CandieGirl

Scottt said:


> OK, you went behind your wife's back and looked at her phone without telling her. She, on the other hand, has been carrying on a correspondence via text messages and making plans to meet with this guy, who's obviously hitting on her. And she's been doing all of this behind your back. Seriously, dude, which one do you think is worse?
> 
> That's not to say that she won't throw the "snooping" charge at you, though. When she does, just be sure to stay focused on what she's been up to. Don't let her change the subject. And if I were you, I wouldn't wait till Friday, either. A lot can happen between now and then.


Seriously! I once had the 'snooping' thrown in my face by a long defunct ex...what nerve he had! The look on his face when I pointed out what I had found (numerous instances/texts/schmoozes with old GFs) was priceless. My, do they ever get defensive once they're CAUGHT.


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## CH

CandieGirl said:


> Seriously! I once had the 'snooping' thrown in my face by a long defunct ex...what nerve he had! The look on his face when I pointed out what I had found (numerous instances/texts/schmoozes with old GFs) was priceless. My, do they ever get defensive once they're CAUGHT.


Yep, it's your fault for snooping. If you didn't then you wouldn't have known and it would still be life as normal. You're the dumb one for snooping and finding out and ruining our relationship!!! How dare you mess up things between us, just shut your eyes and pretend you didn't see what you thought you saw.


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