# One Transaction At a Time



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

We speak often of viewing things from 50,000 feet. Once people elevate themselves to that level, we can detach "enough" from our own stake in things to view behavior on a transactional level.

How many threads are on this board about "what to do" for Mother's Day?

This is up to and including those poor souls whose wives took one from posOM just last night.

If you're at 50,000 feet, is there any sort of warmth that would be productive in that situation?

Are you ok with what she's doing?

If you aren't, then why in the world would you go out of your way to be nice?

All you're doing is giving the signal that you are OK with what she's currently doing.

Are you?

Then gin up the stones to resist doormat behavior.

You cannot talk your way out of something you've behaved your way into.

BUT.. you can BEHAVE your way out of it.

Yet, you got into this "one transaction at a time"

That is also the road out.

But, you have to observe your own reactions to manage your own lives.

Have a great day ladies and gentlemen.

Observe what's going on and report it.

We'll kick it around.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Agreed.

Emotional Communication at it's finest.

Hopefully, most will resist and understand the significance in not sending a message.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Emotional Communication at it's finest.
> 
> ...


So easy to stay in the weeds, personalize everything, engage in fixing behavior, and simply lose the battle.

I believe fear motivates more than 80% of human behavior. We're hardwired for survival, so fear of danger is a strong recurrent motivational force.

And, cowardly reactions to fear are the norm.

Yes, it's that simple.

But, I'd never expect my wife to respect a fearful husband.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

And whether they'll ever come out and say it... They'll respect you for it.

Chip, I loved the: You can behave your way out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> And whether they'll ever come out and say it... They'll respect you for it.
> 
> Chip, I loved the: You can behave your way out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Group,

RDJ speculates it takes 3 months of restrained behavior to live down every year of reactive stupid behavior.

Set your clock - and expectations - accordingly.


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## Lewis1973 (May 3, 2013)

Ok....so 4 weeks in I better get set for the long haul then!

lol....I need to right "not yet" on my hand so every time I think of emailing/phoning her I dont!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lewis,

Many times, men get "caring for the kids" fed to them in ways that relegate them to second class status in the home.

Most of us see that happening and bristle, but say nothing about it. Worst of all, we "do" nothing about it. Remember, this is emotional communication we're talking about.

Here's a hypothetical. Let's say you're getting home from work and your wife and stepdaughter are walking in the driveway of the apartment when you pull up.

You open your vehicle expecting to see them there to greet you. What you see instead is their backs as they are at the front door headed inside.

Do you:

1) Rush towards them and start reprimanding them about not paying proper respect

2) Get hurt, suck it up, go inside and make the best of it.

3) Take a seat on the retaining wall outside and wait until your wife realizes you haven't come inside.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Lewis,
> 
> Many times, men get "caring for the kids" fed to them in ways that relegate them to second class status in the home.
> 
> ...


You forgot:

4) None of the above.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

spun said:


> You forgot:
> 
> 4) None of the above.
> 
> ...


Happy Mother's Day Spun!

Have an update for us?

Was thinking about you today.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yet, you got into this "one transaction at a time"


Be aware of each and every transaction from here on out. 

Not to be mistaken with over analyzing.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

It helps to realize that of all the ways we communicate with others (body language, expressions, etc), verbal communication is less than 10%.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> And whether they'll ever come out and say it... They'll respect you for it.
> 
> Chip, I loved the: You can behave your way out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does that apply to women that have a bs too, or does that make us look masculine?


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

What seems most obvious when put in front of you like this, is so counter intuitive.

I think its important to realise that it not feeling right doesn't make it wrong. Especially when behaving yourself into a situation was over such a long time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> What seems most obvious when put in front of you like this, is so counter intuitive.


If our instincts put us on the right path, how would we end up in this forum?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Last night my X was standing in front of me, in tears. She moved slightly closer and leaned in - looking for sympathy.

I looked her in the eyes and turned around. It did not feel right. Here is someone I care about deeply who is in distress. Turning my back was cold. 

But she does not deserve comfort from me. She fired me. 

Now - are there any words that could get that message across more effectively than calmly turning around at that moment? 

I don't think so.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

zillard said:


> Last night my X was standing in front of me, in tears. She moved slightly closer and leaned in - looking for sympathy.
> 
> I looked her in the eyes and turned around. It did not feel right. Here is someone I care about deeply who is in distress. Turning my back was cold.
> 
> ...


Personally, I'm a proponent of 'words', simply because cold-hearted actions don't reach my narcissistic STBX. He sees it as weakness on my part, where standing firm with a statement, such as, "I understand this is difficult for you; however, you fired me as your supporter.", forces him to acknowledge his own actions.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> Personally, I'm a proponent of 'words', simply because cold-hearted actions don't reach my narcissistic STBX. He sees it as weakness on my part, where standing firm with a statement, such as, "I understand this is difficult for you; however, you fired me as your supporter.", forces him to acknowledge his own actions.


Men and women communicate differently.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Men and women communicate differently.


I couldn't agree more. When a man turns his back on me, it breaks my heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> I couldn't agree more. When a man turns his back on me, it breaks my heart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd be more likely to turn my back on my wife had she forsaken me and our children for posOM.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Personally, I'm a proponent of 'words', simply because cold-hearted actions don't reach my narcissistic STBX. He sees it as weakness on my part, where standing firm with a statement, such as, "I understand this is difficult for you; however, you fired me as your supporter.", forces him to acknowledge his own actions.


I can tell you the result had I said something like that. 

"I wasn't asking for your support!!" 

Followed by drama. Anger. Her focus would have shifted to being mad at me for being such a d!ck. Yet another bad goodbye for D7 before leaving.

Instead... the broken heart feeling. With nothing from me to distract from it.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

zillard said:


> I can tell you the result had I said something like that.
> 
> "I wasn't asking for your support!!"
> 
> ...


I dig it, Z. 

In fact, I'm jealous that it doesn't work for me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> I dig it, Z.
> 
> In fact, I'm jealous that it doesn't work for me.


Actually, it does work for you.

It just doesn't get you the outcome you want.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Actually, it does work for you.
> 
> It just doesn't get you the outcome you want.


No.

I'm telling you, from experience. Ignoring him does not work. I have to junk punch him with words and phrases that he doesn't understand, to get my point across to him. THEN is when he leaves me alone.

Besides, what outcome do you think I want?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> No.
> 
> I'm telling you, from experience. Ignoring him does not work. I have to junk punch him with words and phrases that he doesn't understand, to get my point across to him. THEN is when he leaves me alone.
> 
> Besides, what outcome do you think I want?


You wanted him to actually work with you - rather than grabbing the victim chair and abusing you.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You wanted him to actually work with you - rather than grabbing the victim chair and abusing you.


_Wanted_ is the key word, there. And when that was my desired outcome, my approach to communication was much different.

Now, however, I will be quick to remind him of his actions, because once this is divorce is final, they will no longer affect me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> _Wanted_ is the key word, there. And when that was my desired outcome, my approach to communication was much different.
> 
> Now, however, I will be quick to remind him of his actions, because once this is divorce is final, they will no longer affect me.


As The Butt Pirate prepares for his date with the plank.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Let's kick it Brother Chip,

Preach about some Emotional Connection.

What in the world is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Let's kick it Brother Chip,
> 
> Preach about some Emotional Connection.
> 
> ...


Group,

Emotional communication often does not involve words. It's most frequently driven through glances, eyebrows, and other various body languages.

When you tell someone you're not ok with something and they persist in doing it, what makes you think telling them - again - is going to matter?

You must enforce your boundary for it to be healthy and effective.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sometimes the only boundary a person can understand is a complete removal from your life. I am thinking that is what I need to do. 

Nothing seems to get through. Body language says "don't even think of coming near me". Removed the wedding rings. Separate bedrooms. Planning nothing together. 

I still get texts and voicemails everyday. "Hope you have a great day. I love you very much".

I"ve put the truth on the table. Called it what it is. Told him he's fired. So obviously I'm doing something wrong??? He ignores the boundaries and behaves PA when the slightest thing sets him off (usually work or the dogs). Spend most of my time at home being pissed off at him for the constant pushing the envelope. 

Some people won't get the message until you have disapperared off the face of the earth for awhile.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Sometimes the only boundary a person can understand is a complete removal from your life. I am thinking that is what I need to do.
> 
> Nothing seems to get through. Body language says "don't even think of coming near me". Removed the wedding rings. Separate bedrooms. Planning nothing together.
> 
> ...


deej,

Have you ever separated from him?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes, twice. Less than 2 weeks the first time, I was afraid of being alone and had no real plans for a permanent escape. the 2nd time was for 2 months Jan - Mar when I went to stay with my son.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Yes, twice. Less than 2 weeks the first time, I was afraid of being alone and had no real plans for a permanent escape. the 2nd time was for 2 months Jan - Mar when I went to stay with my son.


Any chance you could totally go off the grid?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Need to stay in touch with my son, if I'm gone from the marital home for more than 30 days without an agreement I foresake a lot of legal avenues.

I'm hot into a project at work that should be finished by first week of July. Have zero vacation until then... 

Off the grid being just go away somewhere for 29 days?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Need to stay in touch with my son, if I'm gone from the marital home for more than 30 days without an agreement I foresake a lot of legal avenues.
> 
> I'm hot into a project at work that should be finished by first week of July. Have zero vacation until then...
> 
> Off the grid being just go away somewhere for 29 days?


Yes...

You've stated your boundary enough times.

With him, this seems like the next logical tactical step to take enforcing them.

I'd even go so far as to get a burner phone to stay in touch with your son.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

That's a good idea. Now just to find somewhere to go for awhile..
Lots of furnished places for rent.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> That's a good idea. Now just to find somewhere to go for awhile..
> Lots of furnished places for rent.


After day 29, you return.

You stay long enough until the boundaries are pushed again - and "poof"

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Boundaries are meaningless unless enforced with words AND actions.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Just saw this thread.
Makes me think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

Conrad,

This thread is awesome! I have read and NMMNG and MMSL as
I've seen you refer over and over on various threads. 

Some amazing information in there for sure. Truly eye-opening stuff. 

Although my wife and I are in the final week of being married-
we have begun to really learn how to speak with each other
in a much healthier way. Almost like when we were first dating. 
The books helped with this, no question.

We had many issues over the years that led to our marital demise 
with the final straw being hurt EA I discovered in January. I totally
Lost my cool and filed for divorce the next day. She never once tried
to stop it though. 

I was super codependent and am slowly recovering from that. 

My wife has always told me over the years that she needed an emotional
connection with me. I never understood the concept. But I acted as though I did.
It resulted in very little sex. As our marriage counselor put it- a woman
can't have sex with a man unless she feels the emotional connection. 

Could you give a few examples in layman's terms please?
If there's any chance for us I know the only way is to learn this...

H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

H2f,

Women feel an emotional connection with men who can make them laugh.

Have you recovered your sense of humor?


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes. Something I lost in the few months leading up to her EA. 

Most of the time I am faking it but I feel much more comfortable 
being around her as my confidence has grown. 

She has taken notice. The confidence comes from learning and growing 
within myself. This board and you in particular have had a lot to do with
that. 


H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hard2function said:


> Yes. Something I lost in the few months leading up to her EA.
> 
> Most of the time I am faking it but I feel much more comfortable
> being around her as my confidence has grown.
> ...


You say you're a week out from final divorce?


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes. Signed the final papers last week. I wish I had posted here 
sooner. May or may not have made a difference, who knows.

I feel like at this point she may be noticing what she's losing
and is afraid that someone else might catch my eye. But
that's just speculation. 

I just want to make sure that every interaction I have with her
is maximized. But I also don't want to be her Plan B. 

H2f
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hard2function said:


> Yes. Signed the final papers last week. I wish I had posted here
> sooner. May or may not have made a difference, who knows.
> 
> I feel like at this point she may be noticing what she's losing
> ...


Describe a typical evening when you two were married.

Also, what was her childhood like?

What was yours like?


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Group,
> 
> Emotional communication often does not involve words. It's most frequently driven through glances, eyebrows, and other various body languages.
> 
> ...


how do you 'enforce' your boundries?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stella Moon said:


> how do you 'enforce' your boundries?


Let me give you the classic example.

A man tiptoes around his woman all night long trying not to irritate her. Literally - walking on eggshells. She doesn't give him the time of day and is highly critical.

They finally climb into bed.

What should he do?

Most men in failing relationships will try to initiate sex.

Is that not an emotional "thank you" for being a b!tch?


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Let me give you the classic example.
> 
> A man tiptoes around his woman all night long trying not to irritate her. Literally - walking on eggshells. She doesn't give him the time of day and is highly critical.
> 
> ...


ok but from the female side...

I am in a new relationship...and 'if' it gets serious...and there's the long distance factor (at least temorarily) and say there were to be conversation about 'trust'...and boundries...and such...how do they get enforced? Sigh...this is so hard to even get ask...I don't even know if I make sense at this point or if I'm able to ask this correctly...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You know I won't judge.

But, I can tell you that you will know - if you submit to the truth.

It will depend on demeanor while on the phone.

Is he distracted?

Is he "in to" the conversation?

Does an interruption seem like a relief?

People aren't able to hide these things - no matter how sociopathic.

We just need to observe.

And, boundaries could include no "1 on 1's" with member of the opposite sex, until you sort things out.

And, you can enforce that with transparency.


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

I came home from work most days to find the house messy and 
nothing made for dinner( some days she would still be in bed) 
I would make dinner for her and the kids, then pick up the house. 
We would watch TV shows together until I had to go to bed. She
would stay up all hours of the night. I would get frustrated
from lack of sex and attention. Looking back I realize how poorly
I reacted to the feelings I had concerning those issues. 

Her childhood- Molested by a trusted neighbor at six years old. 
When she was 8 yrs old, her mom started an affair with a man
and divorced my wife's dad. When she turned 13, one of her
dads girlfriends introduced her to meth. She was addicted for two 
yrs. her mom passed away when she was 20. That's when we 
got together. 

Mine- Father passed away when I was three. My mother had
Several boyfriends over the years that were abusive toward myself 
and my brother. We had just enough money to get by. My mom
had some severe BPD tendencies as well. NMMNG seemed
to have been written just for me. I'm beginning to wake up...

H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brother,

The hour is late in your relationship.

But, you have to fix you first.

Both of you are abuse victims - so you have poor boundaries and trust issues as a result.

How old are you both?

FWIW, I know how angry you became. You were busting ass to make a life and she was laying down. So, you got angry.

What you needed to do was communicate emotionally - rather than treating her like you would treat a man.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You know I won't judge.
> 
> But, I can tell you that you will know - if you submit to the truth.
> 
> ...



transparency...'less available'? 


Yea...your right...how phone calls and texts go and such...I'm thinking into the future here...so much up in the air for me yet...just uncertain...my stbxh messed me up...even though he didn't 'cheat'...he left me with so much trust issues anyway...weird. So I just second guess 'everything'....and don't know what to trust...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stella Moon said:


> transparency...'less available'?
> 
> 
> Yea...your right...how phone calls and texts go and such...I'm thinking into the future here...so much up in the air for me yet...just uncertain...my stbxh messed me up...even though he didn't 'cheat'...he left me with so much trust issues anyway...weird. So I just second guess 'everything'....and don't know what to trust...


Then just trust us.

We don't have axes to grind.


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

I am 43-she is 33. 

I definitely hit rock bottom when this all went down. It forced me,
the first time in my life, to take a hard look at MYSELF. Painful. 
I always looked for my happiness in her prior to D Day. 

I know our marriage is now dead as I knew it. During some of our
recent conversations, she has said things like - who knows what the future 
holds for us - I wish we would have gotten along like this for the last five years-
It sucks that I had to be your lesson for you to become this great man. Even mentioned
the possibility of remarriage in the future, but ever so vaguely. Just enough to keep
me hanging on. 

She can't seem to face this reality. All very confusing to me.

H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> ok but from the female side...
> 
> I am in a new relationship...and 'if' it gets serious...and there's the long distance factor (at least temorarily) and say there were to be conversation about 'trust'...and boundries...and such...how do they get enforced? Sigh...this is so hard to even get ask...I don't even know if I make sense at this point or if I'm able to ask this correctly...


Hard to enforce a boundary in a long distance relationship, as it's difficult to know when that boundary has been crossed. 

I'm in a similar situation, Stell. Temporarily long distance. Maybe some of this will help.

First, we've been open and honest with each other. How do I know she has been? I can hear it in her voice. Some conversations getting into deep territory start out near stutter. Commence then pause. She's checking herself. She's trying not to say the wrong thing. 

But then once it comes out it is like a floodgate opened. That is hard to fake for a good actor. 

My emotional response, though verbal due to phone conversation, is to return that openness and honesty and divulge something about myself I wouldn't otherwise. By doing so I emotionally thank her for being open. And I build trust. 

Very short example: 

T - I'm a little excited to see you. 

Z - A little? Liar. I'm totally stoked! 

Then the truth comes out. She's counting down the days like a kid waiting for Christmas. 

Second, I've disclosed that I do and will have trust issues. Luckily she's also a former BS and can empathize. Hopefully the disclosure is all you need and the other person is understanding. I've never provided a list of things that would set me off. But if asked I've spoken about my reality surrounding discovery of X's A. 

Short example of a good response:

We communicate on FB a lot. X also did with posOM. I've noticed a guy getting pretty forward with her on her wall. We currently have a "no expectations" agreement so I say nothing. Is long distance, little is known, and I have no room to talk. 

Recently she tells me she lost a friend who was being too forward. Says she's not sure why she's telling me. I'm pretty sure why though. Because she's getting emotionally connected, understands the trust issue, and wanted to reassure me. 

As for boundaries. If we did have an understanding that things were serious between us, things would be different. I would expect open advances in a public forum to be rebuffed. And if they were not, I would not initiate contact. When she did, I would then ask about it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hard2function said:


> I am 43-she is 33.
> 
> I definitely hit rock bottom when this all went down. It forced me,
> the first time in my life, to take a hard look at MYSELF. Painful.
> ...


Do not set yourself up as Plan B.

What I understand you saying is that your lawyer is going to call you and tell you that you're divorced sometime next week?

She's saying these vague things.

I would say IF you hear one of those things again - and you likely will - put forward this question.

"Are you saying we should stop the paperwork and work on the relationship"?

If she says "no", then say, "Then I'm not ok with that kind of talk"

One transaction at a time.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

zillard said:


> Hard to enforce a boundary in a long distance relationship, as it's difficult to know when that boundary has been crossed.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation, Stell. Temporarily long distance. Maybe some of this will help.
> 
> ...



I will know more where we stand this weekend...this is hard for me...sigh... uncertainty....ugh! haha! 

Thank you...your post...as well as Conrads (thank you conrad) helps so much...my mind is running a muck...I don't have butterflies I got the whole zoo goin on...not 'feeling' wise...just the 'entrirety' of it all... although I really 'like' him..


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

An addition to that:

She knows I go out on the weekends as part of my recovery. She also knows that has involved encounters with women. 

We've been a bit more involved lately. Last weekend she asked if I had any big plans for my day. I told her I was probably going hiking. 

I did go. And afterward I posted some pics of my hike to FB. 

That builds trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> An addition to that:
> 
> She knows I go out on the weekends as part of my recovery. She also knows that has involved encounters with women.
> 
> ...


Remember Covey's definition of integrity.

"Loyalty to those that are not present"


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Remember Covey's definition of integrity.
> 
> "Loyalty to those that are not present"


One transaction at a time.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

whos covey? 

I talked to him about integrity...and how important it is to me..


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> my mind is running a muck...I don't have butterflies I got the whole zoo goin on...not 'feeling' wise...just the 'entrirety' of it all... although I really 'like' him..


Oh, the butterflies! I'm right there with you Stella. 

But we must try to live in the present. 

We've done a good job of no longer emotionally living in the past with our X's 24/7 (though sh!t does drag us back now and then... and will). 

Now we need to focus on not emotionally living in the future. 

Right now, tonight, you have butterflies. I do a bit too. How you handle that right now is the most important thing. 

Tomorrow is unknown. Enjoy those butterflies while they are fluttering about. Don't worry about them flying away! 

Realize that a beautiful garden will bring them back tomorrow.

And if they don't come back. Others will. 

And you can enjoy those tomorrow.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> whos covey?
> 
> I talked to him about integrity...and how important it is to me..


Steven Covey: 7 Habits of Highly Effective People


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

zillard said:


> Oh, the butterflies! I'm right there with you Stella.
> 
> But we must try to live in the present.
> 
> ...


You have no idea how much I needed to hear this....

Thank you....


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> ok but from the female side...
> 
> I am in a new relationship...and 'if' it gets serious...and there's the long distance factor (at least temorarily) and say there were to be conversation about 'trust'...and boundries...and such...how do they get enforced? Sigh...this is so hard to even get ask...I don't even know if I make sense at this point or if I'm able to ask this correctly...


Remember you set your worth that others see. Part of this is stepping up and "saying hey that's not going to work and here's why" enforcing boundaries. The sticking points are when fear and stress to drive you to compromise. Not that all boundaries are set in stone but fear should not be the motivator for lowering expectations.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I think this is an interesting thread Conrad and glad you brought it up. 

Half way through workingatit's separation (my first experience on TAM) I gave what I thought was one of my more poignant pieces of advice. It was buried at the end of a long post, but it was something that stuck with me and I remembered it yesterday while reading this thread. workingatit and her H were half way through their separation, seeing each other 2 or 3 times a week and she had been fighting hard to get him to come home. 

She said "I feel like every move I make or thing I do will make such a huge difference...." My response was

"It won't unless it's negative and so far you've been really good. If you still want him home show him kindness and a happy wife when you get the chance. Don't be needy, don't be clingy and show him that that angry nagging W is gone forever. The new W is someone that is more attractive, that he can respect and that he will enjoy being around. I don't know if I can say it any more plainly. Remember that with H this 30 days isn't to make the M work but to see if he wants to try to stay in it. *Give him reasons to stay. You are on display and putting yourself out there for brief yet meaningful periods of time. Take advantage of them and see what happens. It is a hard thing to do.*"

workingatit did take advantage, of almost every transaction, every interaction. She slipped up a couple of times but overall was able to show that things had changed...that she had changed. And on the day before H said he was ready to come home he gave her a final test and was really awful to her...she didn’t react and passed the test.

I have a feeling that I've been "big picturing" it too much and it has caused me to slip a few times recently. There are simply so many moving pieces: being responsible, getting my own needs met, my own time, being more alpha, not being a doormat, not taking responsibility for W’s or D’s problems, letting them sink or swim on their own, avoiding #3’s, being the man of the house, passing fitness tests… I wonder if you narrow the focus down to every transaction, that doing the right thing every time starts to flow naturally from there. I wonder how long it takes before you stop slipping up.


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> I wonder how long it takes before you stop slipping up.


Hopefully never. 

Or progression stops.


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

One square at a time.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I was thinking of this thread this morning.
I need help with saying "no" and saying I disagree, in the moment.
Lately, I just say... nothing.

A few examples:
H got up late for work. So first words out of his mouth were "can you do me a favor and if I'm not up by 5 can you at least shout at me". I said nothing. I use an alarm clock to get up.

Then while I'm in the shower he talks to me through the bathroom door... shouting about needing bread and dogs need treats and wants to know if he needs to do that tonight or what.... I said nothing and pretended I didn't hear him.

Third convo this morning was a snotty comment about "how is work going, is it slowing down or this nonsense just going to go on forever". I said nothing.

When people are ignorant to me... I just say nothing. I don't acknowledge what they said. When I've had enough, I will go back LATER and say "I didn't appreciate that, etc". Because I need to think about what I am going to say, without being too rude or coming off as preachy. (telling people not to be judgemental, etc)

Know of some ways to be in the moment with comments like these?


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

deejov said:


> I was thinking of this thread this morning.
> I need help with saying "no" and saying I disagree, in the moment.
> Lately, I just say... nothing.
> 
> ...


Practice. In your head, in the mirror, in daily encounters.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> Practice. In your head, in the mirror, in daily encounters.


Cool, steely gaze... "I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Cool, steely gaze... "I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"


Seriously, stand up straight, look in the mirror, and repeat it out loud.

Over and over.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Have it taped above my computer now LOL
Thanks!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Deejov,

I have been practicing "No" sporadically too over the past several weeks.

I think that once you get that first one under your belt and you see how good it feels, especially if they then take responsibility for those things themselves, then the next ones just get easier and easier.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

zillard said:


> Hopefully never.
> 
> Or progression stops.


I suppose. Cause then I guess the next logical step is complacency.


----------



## catch22gofigure (Apr 26, 2013)

Tron said:


> I think this is an interesting thread Conrad and glad you brought it up.
> 
> Half way through workingatit's separation (my first experience on TAM) I gave what I thought was one of my more poignant pieces of advice. It was buried at the end of a long post, but it was something that stuck with me and I remembered it yesterday while reading this thread. workingatit and her H were half way through their separation, seeing each other 2 or 3 times a week and she had been fighting hard to get him to come home.
> 
> ...


This soooo hit home for me Tron. I am so glad i was scrolling through and found this post. I'm implementing TODAY !!


----------



## catch22gofigure (Apr 26, 2013)

Tron said:


> I think this is an interesting thread Conrad and glad you brought it up.
> 
> Half way through workingatit's separation (my first experience on TAM) I gave what I thought was one of my more poignant pieces of advice. It was buried at the end of a long post, but it was something that stuck with me and I remembered it yesterday while reading this thread. workingatit and her H were half way through their separation, seeing each other 2 or 3 times a week and she had been fighting hard to get him to come home.
> 
> ...


This soooo hit home for me Tron. I am so glad i was scrolling through and found this post. I'm implementing TODAY !!


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> I suppose. Cause then I guess the next logical step is complacency.


The enemy of growth.


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> The enemy of growth.


Seems complacency was the big trap most of us fell into before our marriages fell apart. 

I know that's true for me.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> Seems complacency was the big trap most of us fell into before our marriages fell apart.
> 
> I know that's true for me.


It's an especially virulent enemy if you're inauthentic.

For you see, Best Behavior isn't limited to "them"


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

You know how much this applies to work situations, right?


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Lewis,
> 
> Many times, men get "caring for the kids" fed to them in ways that relegate them to second class status in the home.
> 
> ...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Conrad said:
> 
> 
> > I know this an old thread & I'm a little late to this but unless it was pouring rain or a thunderstorm what kind of wife would walk right by her husband or even if he pulled in after she passed what kind of wife wouldn't turn around and wait for him to get out of the car??
> ...


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Oh I understand the message it sends & I think its terrible. It makes the child learn that no one is more important than themselves because the sad fact is that same mother or child would probably not stop to help a person in need either or that same child will bully another in school because they think they are better than everyone else. I know your were strictly talking about marriages but isn't it amazing how that type of behavior spills into other areas of life. It says a lot about society today and the way we raise our kids.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Oh I understand the message it sends & I think its terrible. It makes the child learn that no one is more important than themselves because the sad fact is that same mother or child would probably not stop to help a person in need either or that same child will bully another in school because they think they are better than everyone else. I know your were strictly talking about marriages but isn't it amazing how that type of behavior spills into other areas of life. It says a lot about society today and the way we raise our kids.


Apparently, we no longer teach "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness", it's now "life, liberty, and comfort"

That's actually not possible.

And, the world will not reinforce that message.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

So very true & so very sad!!


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> So very true & so very sad!!


In ReGroup's thread earlier today, we were openly discussing the unwillingness of the human emotional center to release delusion.

Yet, we simply "must" release delusions to weigh evidence about ourselves and others and - subsequently - to grow in understanding.

I've seen the quote, "Only at the precipice do we evolve"

It's an awesome truth.

If we never allow children to reach any sort of precipice - and merely focus on satisfying their every want - they'll never grow.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes you are right. Truth is parents are so afraid of children getting hurt or heaven forbid fail at something that they never let them get to "the precipice". Parents do not let them make choices or screw up. How many times do you see parents covering for their children's shortcomings? Therefore the child never has to figure anything out for themselves or deal with their own consequenses. They live in a world of being "spoon fed" and will grow into adults who expect others around them to treat them the same way. They will expect people around them to give into their every wish and demand with no regard for the feelings or wants of others around them. I hope this is where you were going with this & i understood what you were saying. As a parent myself I wont say I didn't fall into this pattern once in a while but I got better with each child & tried to correct my child rearing ways.

I think I need to read and think about other things like this instead of dwelling on my own situation. This has seemed to do me good today.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Yes you are right. Truth is parents are so afraid of children getting hurt or heaven forbid fail at something that they never let them get to "the precipice". Parents do not let them make choices or screw up. How many times do you see parents covering for their children's shortcomings? Therefore the child never has to figure anything out for themselves or deal with their own consequenses. They live in a world of being "spoon fed" and will grow into adults who expect others around them to treat them the same way. They will expect people around them to give into their every wish and demand with no regard for the feelings or wants of others around them. I hope this is where you were going with this & i understood what you were saying. As a parent myself I wont say I didn't fall into this pattern once in a while but I got better with each child & tried to correct my child rearing ways.
> 
> I think I need to read and think about other things like this instead of dwelling on my own situation. This has seemed to do me good today.


Steps,

You're a gal with some real common sense.

I will testify that writing here and truly helping people has a therapeutic value to it.

I tend to gravitate towards threads that are similar to the stuff I've experienced. They're usually male-oriented.

There's room for way more than this here.

I hope you'll consider increasing your output.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Oh yes. The right of a parent to let their children make their own mistakes. 

I was a single parent, I was so bombarded with "advice" I took a parenting class. It was about consequences and discipline, versus punishment.
My opinion, I understand, but I believed it was right.

"One has no right to punish a child. But you do have a responsibiity to discipline them and teach them consequences for their actions. " 
This is what I followed. 

I now struggle with a highly independent 22 yr old son who thinks he can live all alone with type 1 diabetes, and I am forced to eat my own words. If I ask him what he is eating.. he shrugs. Then I have to say... yes, you are an adult. You can eat whatever and however you want. Yes, you can choose to manage your d however you want. He just smiled. He did not tell me what he is eating, he just said "I understand the consequences of poor management". 

And I knew what he meant. He can eat whatever he wants, as long as he takes enough insulin to cover it. Sigh. 

Oooooh. Frustrating! Because he doesn't need me. And I know myself enough to know that's what it is. He certainly wasn't spoon fed, as I didn't think that was the right thing to do. I kinda thought he would always need me. Even more so now that's he T1 like me. I was wrong. 

I raised an adult. I'm not sure how much men understand how hard it is for a mother to let their kids go to be adults. 

It's not that we want to spoon feed them, we just want to be needed. Does that make any sense?


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> smallsteps said:
> 
> 
> > Such a mother is teaching her 15 year old girl that the man in her house is unimportant.
> ...


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

deejov said:


> Oh yes. The right of a parent to let their children make their own mistakes.
> 
> I was a single parent, I was so bombarded with "advice" I took a parenting class. It was about consequences and discipline, versus punishment.
> My opinion, I understand, but I believed it was right.
> ...


Of course makes sense deejov. Men want to be needed too. 

Fighting the urge to reply to this as a man displaced from his home and children. Suffice it to say, yes, I know how you feel.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Steps,
> 
> You're a gal with some real common sense.
> 
> ...


Thank you Conrad - I appreciate that compliment. I also post on threads I relate to. Mine tend to be mixed -ive met some really fantastic men & women here & even made a couple of friends along the way.

I will consider reading and posting more. You are right - it does feel good to truly help someone - especially since I have received so much help from people here already.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Deejov - I have tried to balance the two - ive tried to make them figure out the consequences but I would step in and punish (or coax them to my way of thinking without them realzing what I did) if I needed to. I have been very strict about education - grades & behavior but I did it using a combination of both methods. I am not saying I'm a perfect parent - I'm far from it - but ive never had a discipline issue with any of them & all are or were (I have a d24 s20 & s15) honor students.
That being said. My 20 yr old was told by the doctor to go get blood work done & he refuses to go. I cant force him - I can keep talking to him about it but what should I do - hes bigger than me lol & hes financially self sufficient. I know its hard - as a mom I hate letting go but its the natural progression of things.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> Conrad said:
> 
> 
> > It's the norm nowadays.
> ...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Ceegee said:
> 
> 
> > I know and its a shame. Teaching kids a little common courtesey & kindness to others goes a long way.
> ...


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> smallsteps said:
> 
> 
> > It's possible my wife and I won't live together again until her kids are in college.
> ...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Conrad said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my that doesn't sound good. Care to elaborate??
> ...


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

I see & agree. I assume by you saying her kids these are not your biological children? I can see where it can be a problem. I remember it being a sticky area between my parents & step parents. As a matter of fact I believe it was one of the things that broke up my mother & stepfather. He was from the south & us originally from the north - very different parenting styles.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I see & agree. I assume by you saying her kids these are not your biological children? I can see where it can be a problem. I remember it being a sticky area between my parents & step parents. As a matter of fact I believe it was one of the things that broke up my mother & stepfather. He was from the south & us originally from the north - very different parenting styles.


I did give you the example the other day where teenage drama was more important than a husband returning home.

This wasn't the exception - it was the rule.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I did give you the example the other day where teenage drama was more important than a husband returning home.
> 
> This wasn't the exception - it was the rule.


Ahhhh I see now. So I assume we're talking teenagers & is there more than one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I did give you the example the other day where teenage drama was more important than a husband returning home.
> 
> This wasn't the exception - it was the rule.


What are your wife's stated/perceived familial priorities?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> What are your wife's stated/perceived familial priorities?


She says she "wants to be a good mom"


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Ahhhh I see now. So I assume we're talking teenagers & is there more than one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are two.

Now that I'm not around to blame, they've now decided they really don't like being with their father either.

The danger of kissing your own children's rear ends is they will believe they're entitled to it.

Anyone who doesn't do that will be judged as lacking.

Not a good start to life.


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She says she "wants to be a good mom"


Mine is the "coolest". Her own words. Speaks volumes.


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> There are two.
> 
> Now that I'm not around to blame, they've now decided they really don't like being with their father either.
> 
> ...


We like to believe that kids will see this for what it is when they get older. Truth is they don't always do that. Especially if both parents engage in it. 

Destined to a lifetime of victim-hood.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> smallsteps said:
> 
> 
> > We disagree on limits for children.
> ...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> We like to believe that kids will see this for what it is when they get older. Truth is they don't always do that. Especially if both parents engage in it.
> 
> Destined to a lifetime of victim-hood.


I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that the kids are observant and "I trust them to make good decisions about people"

From 50,000 feet, I can see that 13-14 year old girls are likely the least equipped to come to any reasonable decisions about people and especially about step-parents.

But... standing up for me would only be "influencing them"

We don't want to do that.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> There are two.
> 
> Now that I'm not around to blame, they've now decided they really don't like being with their father either.
> 
> ...


So in other words any form of discipline & structure? Anyone who makes them responsible for their actions. So now mom is in charge - there is no balance to these kids lives??

My stbxh tried this a few weeks ago with s15. His grades were slipping badly at the end of the schoolyear (could have been the circumstances of the past year or fatigue - since they had lost so much time due to Sandy there was no time off.) In my mind it didn't matter - I wanted him to pull it together - I don't like to see anything below a B. His father told him D's were fine with him.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that the kids are observant and "I trust them to make good decisions about people"
> 
> From 50,000 feet, I can see that 13-14 year old girls are likely the least equipped to come to any reasonable decisions about people and especially about step-parents.
> 
> ...


Kids of that age are not observant of anything but themselves. Its our job to teach them to become that way but they need some form of guidance & rules to learn.

Oh and 13-14 year old boys aren't much better.


----------



## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Why am I just now seeing this?

Good points.

I'm kind of torn on the Father's Day gifts though. He is still their father, and as their mother I have a responsibility to teach them to honor him as thus. However, this year was way too hard to deal with his lying antics and handmade cards were all I could muster. I am not spending money on him. Mother's Day was not met with gifts or cards and the jacka$$ seems to be trying to convince my children that his wh0re is a new mommy to them. It's hard to be 50k above when your kids are involved. So, they can acknowledge their dad as being their dad, but I'll be damned if I let to of anymore if my hard earned money for him.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

BFGuru said:


> Why am I just now seeing this?
> 
> Good points.
> 
> I'm kind of torn on the Father's Day gifts though. He is still their father, and as their mother I have a responsibility to teach them to honor him as thus. However, this year was way too hard to deal with his lying antics and handmade cards were all I could muster. I am not spending money on him. Mother's Day was not met with gifts or cards and the jacka$$ seems to be trying to convince my children that his wh0re is a new mommy to them. It's hard to be 50k above when your kids are involved. So, they can acknowledge their dad as being their dad, but I'll be damned if I let to of anymore if my hard earned money for him.


My kids are older so the 24 & 20 year old did there own thing I didn't force the 15 yr old to do anything. He didn't make sure mothers day was covered so why should I concern myself with fathers day. As a matter of fact he came to see the dog the day before mothers day & I saw him in the yard & he said nothing to me about it so when fathers day rolled around & he came to see the dog & kids in the yard I stayed away - I didn't want to wish him a happy fathers day when he ignored mothers day.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Kids of that age are not observant of anything but themselves. Its our job to teach them to become that way but they need some form of guidance & rules to learn.
> 
> Oh and 13-14 year old boys aren't much better.


I've heard the rationalization that "when they have kids of their own they'll understand".

Well, as this board attests, that's far too late.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I've heard the rationalization that "when they have kids of their own they'll understand".
> 
> Well, as this board attests, that's far too late.


I know that we say "they'll understand when they have kids of their own" when we're talking about the trials & tribulations of child rearing. It sounds like in your case your wife has twisted the statement to her advantage.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I know that we say "they'll understand when they have kids of their own" when we're talking about the trials & tribulations of child rearing. It sounds like in your case your wife has twisted the statement to her advantage.


She feels guilty about their situations - and blames herself.

So, no boundaries.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She feels guilty about their situations - and blames herself.
> 
> So, no boundaries.


Ive heard that before. Its a natural reaction but a dangerous one. I can see giving a little leeway on less important issues but not on the fundamentals of their upbringing. Its not doing them any favors - if anything its doing these children a disservice. How long have their "situations" been going on?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Ive heard that before. Its a natural reaction but a dangerous one. I can see giving a little leeway on less important issues but not on the fundamentals of their upbringing. Its not doing them any favors - if anything its doing these children a disservice. How long have their "situations" been going on?


Entire lives.

In a classic bit of overcompensation, my ex was hideous at staying connected to our children. Of course, coddling my son and estranging my daughter.

So, this way had to be the "right way"... classic overcompensation response by me.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Entire lives.
> 
> In a classic bit of overcompensation, my ex was hideous at staying connected to our children. Of course, coddling my son and estranging my daughter.
> 
> So, this way had to be the "right way"... classic overcompensation response by me.


Your ex's situation with the kids sounds like what has gone on in many Italian households for years (I can say that - I'm a proud Italian myself).

So from what I can figure you have completely opposite thoughts on how the children should be raised? Its very difficult to mesh two completely different beliefs on how children should be raised and lord knows mothers can be fierce protectors of their children no matter if they are right or wrong. I'm not sure you will ever change her mind.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Your ex's situation with the kids sounds like what has gone on in many Italian households for years (I can say that - I'm a proud Italian myself).
> 
> So from what I can figure you have completely opposite thoughts on how the children should be raised? Its very difficult to mesh two completely different beliefs on how children should be raised and lord knows mothers can be fierce protectors of their children no matter if they are right or wrong. I'm not sure you will ever change her mind.


Steps,

People only "convince" themselves.

It simply isn't possible to do it from the outside.

It just appears weak to them.


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> smallsteps said:
> 
> 
> > It's possible my wife and I won't live together again until her kids are in college.
> ...


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> There is differing parenting styles and there is perpetuating the victim.
> 
> My sister did the latter with her kids.
> 
> ...


This is why I ask whether he thinks it will change once they are out of the house. 

She is their enabler. It seems it will continue into adulthood, no?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> This is why I ask whether he thinks it will change once they are out of the house.
> 
> She is their enabler. It seems it will continue into adulthood, no?


This is where observation really helps.

I've heard her say - many times - that they're responsible for "them" once they hit 18 and are out.

It's a core conviction.

It's true for her older 2 kids.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> This is why I ask whether he thinks it will change once they are out of the house.
> 
> She is their enabler. It seems it will continue into adulthood, no?


Most likely - if they ever leave the house


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Most likely - if they ever leave the house


17 year old is ticketed for college out of town next year.

If that doesn't happen?

It will be time to "observe" something different


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This is where observation really helps.
> 
> I've heard her say - many times - that they're responsible for "them" once they hit 18 and are out.
> 
> ...


I didn't see this before I answered ceegee - then there is hope. Were her older ones raised the same as the younger ones though?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I didn't see this before I answered ceegee - then there is hope. Were her older ones raised the same as the younger ones though?


Yes


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Steps,
> 
> People only "convince" themselves.
> 
> ...


That's true but that does say something about communication. I'm not saying anyone can change somebody else's mind BUT there is always room for an open debate and keeping ones mind open to other possibilities. That is not a weakness - its a way of growing & learning.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> That's true but that does say something about communication. I'm not saying anyone can change somebody else's mind BUT there is always room for an open debate and keeping ones mind open to other possibilities. That is not a weakness - its a way of growing & learning.


I currently enforce boundaries on the discussion.

If it spills over to victimization and blame, I'm not ok with that.

Sometimes loudly not ok with that


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Yes


Well its sad but you know for certain where the situation is going. Its not like youre basing your decision to wait it out on blind faith


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Well its sad but you know for certain where the situation is going. Its not like youre basing your decision to wait it out on blind faith


There are many aspects of our relationship that are first rate.

And, we've grown together.

This particular issue hasn't improved.

About a year ago, she confessed to being "Mrs. Nice Mom" with her children, but there's been no real proactive steps take to address it.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I currently enforce boundaries on the discussion.
> 
> If it spills over to victimization and blame, I'm not ok with that.
> 
> Sometimes loudly not ok with that


That's not a debate that's an argument you're describing & then yes you are right - you need to enforce boundaries.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> That's not a debate that's an argument you're describing & then yes you are right - you need to enforce boundaries.


I keep hearing she "wants to make it up to them" because they have a broken home. So, she wants to atone.

I've said, "I'm totally on board with treating everyone with courtesy, respect, and love"

Not enough.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> There are many aspects of our relationship that are first rate.
> 
> And, we've grown together.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you need to "agree to disagree" on a subject. If all or many aspects of your relationship is good then this one can be a work in progress especially since the end result is the children moving out of the house leaving the two of you to move on to the next phase of your lives.

If she has admitted to being "Mrs Nice Mom" then she is aware of it but is not going to change her ways at this point in the game. The kids are too close to leaving the nest so she figures she'll finish the child rearing portion of her life (and make no mistake about it - that is a HUGE adjustment for a woman) the way she has been doing it right along. From a woman's perspective - that's how I see it. Its no disrespect to you - she just needs to finish what she started.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I keep hearing she "wants to make it up to them" because they have a broken home. So, she wants to atone.
> 
> I've said, "I'm totally on board with treating everyone with courtesy, respect, and love"
> 
> Not enough.


I get that - its core values there is nothing wrong with that. It goes back to that original post I commented on. Like I said though - I think shes looking at it as shes almost done with her childrearing duties - why upset the entire applecart at this stage of the game & possibly ( in her mind) ruin the bond she has with her children? Its a temporary situation between you both because once the kids are gone it will just be the two of you & if you are pretty much good in all the other areas of your marriage the two of you can be happy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I get that - its core values there is nothing wrong with that. It goes back to that original post I commented on. Like I said though - I think shes looking at it as shes almost done with her childrearing duties - why upset the entire applecart at this stage of the game & possibly ( in her mind) ruin the bond she has with her children? Its a temporary situation between you both because once the kids are gone it will just be the two of you & if you are pretty much good in all the other areas of your marriage the two of you can be happy.


She's expressed deep fear of us not remaining together until we've been able to emerge as the couple we're supposed to be.

All tied up in this same knot.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's expressed deep fear of us not remaining together until we've been able to emerge as the couple we're supposed to be.
> 
> All tied up in this same knot.


Hmmm so its not something shes comparmentalizing she wants the two of you to work on this now? I know this may be a stupid question at this point but are the two of you living apart right now?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Hmmm so its not something shes comparmentalizing she wants the two of you to work on this now? I know this may be a stupid question at this point but are the two of you living apart right now?


Separated for 2 years.

If you look up the thread "Green Shoots Amidst the Wreckage", you'll see some encouraging information.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Separated for 2 years.
> 
> If you look up the thread "Green Shoots Amidst the Wreckage", you'll see some encouraging information.


Wow that is a while but at least you're still working on it. I will have to look up the thread & do some reading.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Wow that is a while but at least you're still working on it. I will have to look up the thread & do some reading.


She amuses me.

An oft-overlooked element of attraction.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She amuses me.
> 
> An oft-overlooked element of attraction.


I think its an extremely important one. Looks fade - its the personality that lasts. If your spouse doesn't amuse you - life can become extremely boring but then again - and this is my cynical side coming out - is that enough? 

I read through your thread. I can see where you are encouraged with your situation. It will take a lot of work though and you're going to hit walls along the way - I guess the trick will be how do you get through them? I can say through compromise & before you sit to discuss a volitile subject lay some ground rules down that if it gets heated you need to walk away & take it up later but right now due to my own current situation I don't have much more than that.

I know it goes against the theory of making a list of changes you want the person to make and can they live with it ( like what was suggested to good guy). I think its important to do that with the non - negotiables - you have to figure out where the subject of child rearing falls & do you both feel the same about it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't know about the "list" thing.

I think it can help from 50,000 feet to evaluate what's going on, but to insist/demand on a "list" while you're "live" in a relationship could quickly degenerate into hurtful behavior.

Let's put it this way. If my wife was still insisting on putting her male friends AND her children in front of me, I'd be gone.

That's what last year's breakthrough amounted to.

The guys that offered her all that affirmation and security are merely boring clingy guys - and she finally sees that. She also sees where her behavior with them was extraordinarily hurtful.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

That's what I meant to say - I phrased it wrong. There are some things like you said - that are dealbreakers. So now I see why the kids thing is such an issue - its one of the big two. The male friend thing should have been a no brainer and after finding out what I did on Tuesday about my own situation - the male friends have to go. The kids thing is going to be harder. Do you see her not looking at things the same way you do as putting her children ahead of you?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> That's what I meant to say - I phrased it wrong. There are some things like you said - that are dealbreakers. So now I see why the kids thing is such an issue - its one of the big two. The male friend thing should have been a no brainer and after finding out what I did on Tuesday about my own situation - the male friends have to go. The kids thing is going to be harder. Do you see her not looking at things the same way you do as putting her children ahead of you?


She offered to let me come see my grandson (haven't seem him for 18 months) a few weekends ago. She then cautioned me on staying too long because "that's her day with the girls".


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She offered to let me come see my grandson (haven't seem him for 18 months) a few weekends ago. She then cautioned me on staying too long because "that's her day with the girls".


Is this second marriage for both of you?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> Is this second marriage for both of you?


Yes

Suffice it to say, I still haven't seen him


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She offered to let me come see my grandson (haven't seem him for 18 months) a few weekends ago. She then cautioned me on staying too long because "that's her day with the girls".


What? 18 months?? Thats crazy!! Sorry Conrad that's a messed up statement. I mean I guess she said it because of what is going on with you -her -& the child rearing issues unless it was just that she wanted it to be a "girls day". So in the end - how did the visit turn out?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> What? 18 months?? Thats crazy!! Sorry Conrad that's a messed up statement. I mean I guess she said it because of what is going on with you -her -& the child rearing issues unless it was just that she wanted it to be a "girls day". So in the end - how did the visit turn out?


If I was going to visit "with conditions", I'm not visiting.

I love myself too much now to walk on eggshells.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

I agree with you. I mean if she had said " look id like you to come see your grandson but me & the girls are going out so we need to settle on a time" that's one thing but if she said she needs "girl time & you cant stay too long " that's just rude & its an aggressive way of saying it. Now question is did she mean to come off that way or did she not realize how it came across to you? I believe your reaction to her probably got your point across.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes
> 
> Suffice it to say, I still haven't seen him


Earlier I asked about her familial priorities. During my marriage mine were God, wife (spouse), children, family. 

I'm struggling with this dynamic now transitioning from married, to dating and potential long term relationships. My priorities at the moment are the same as before but with wife removed. Casual dates aren't on the list but if I were to find someone to stick with long term I imagine they'd move up the priority list. 

Will they ever take that second spot over my children? I can't honestly say. Does it have the same value in a second marriage? Seems like that's where you find yourself in your marriage.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> Earlier I asked about her familial priorities. During my marriage mine were God, wife (spouse), children, family.
> 
> I'm struggling with this dynamic now transitioning from married, to dating and potential long term relationships. My priorities at the moment are the same as before but with wife removed. Casual dates aren't on the list but if I were to find someone to stick with long term I imagine they'd move up the priority list.
> 
> Will they ever take that second spot over my children? I can't honestly say. Does it have the same value in a second marriage? Seems like that's where you find yourself in your marriage.


How old are your kids? I think that's a hard thing to speculate until you find that person who you may want to marry. A lot of my single friends choose to remain that way ( they just date) because they aren't willing to put someone else ahead of their kids.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I agree with you. I mean if she had said " look id like you to come see your grandson but me & the girls are going out so we need to settle on a time" that's one thing but if she said she needs "girl time & you cant stay too long " that's just rude & its an aggressive way of saying it. Now question is did she mean to come off that way or did she not realize how it came across to you? I believe your reaction to her probably got your point across.


She doesn't see it.

And, when we peel it back and talk about it, she digs in and gets defensive about how "they are the victims"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> How old are your kids? I think that's a hard thing to speculate until you find that person who you may want to marry. A lot of my single friends choose to remain that way ( they just date) because they aren't willing to put someone else ahead of their kids.


Here's the thing.

I don't see it as "putting someone else ahead of the kids"

I see it as adult perspective on relationships - and demonstrating to the kids what a healthy adult relationship looks like.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She doesn't see it.
> 
> And, when we peel it back and talk about it, she digs in and gets defensive about how "they are the victims"


Hmmm that is going to be a problem. The both of you are looking at this from completely different point of views and its one that you both feel strongly about. I mean truth is they are not victims we know this. Could it be her using that as an excuse to justify her own behavior with this? Behavior she truly believes in and doesn't want to change?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> I don't see it as "putting someone else ahead of the kids"
> 
> I see it as adult perspective on relationships - and demonstrating to the kids what a healthy adult relationship looks like.


I see your point. As an adult - I see your point and agree with you but as a mother I would need to be very careful of who would be inportant enough to put ahead of them. Now in my case two of my children are grown and one is a few years away from adulthood so yes eventually someone & they have to be pretty special- will take the place ahead of them. If my children were younger - I'm not sure. No matter what the case we'd have to be on the same page about the way we view children.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Hmmm that is going to be a problem. The both of you are looking at this from completely different point of views and its one that you both feel strongly about. I mean truth is they are not victims we know this. Could it be her using that as an excuse to justify her own behavior with this? Behavior she truly believes in and doesn't want to change?


I think it's fear-based.

She's a childhood abuse victim that got adopted by parents she despised. She associates chores and discipline with the hatred she harbors for her parents. I believe her low self-image has her fearful of enforcing limits. She wants to be their friend.

But, as I said earlier, this hammerlock seems to lift - magically - once they're 18 years old.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think it's fear-based.
> 
> She's a childhood abuse victim that got adopted by parents she despised. She associates chores and discipline with the hatred she harbors for her parents. I believe her low self-image has her fearful of enforcing limits. She wants to be their friend.
> 
> But, as I said earlier, this hammerlock seems to lift - magically - once they're 18 years old.


How is she at keeping the house? Do things get done or is it more "the dishes could wait until later"

Look I get the whole want to be their friend thing. I gave you my childhood rundown on a different thread. My mother was more my friend than a mom. Heck half my friends saw her as a friend. If I get into my teenage years - they were adventurous. I probably had the only mom that allowed keg parties & took my friends & I to times square for fake ID's ( its a wonder I turned out the way I did lol) truth is we all grew into good adults. Moms view was if she didn't do it we'd be sneaking off doing. But basic stuff like respect & being a good decent person to others was drilled into my head.

Maybe its the childhood thing because that's where her damage is from? That's why 18 is the magic number? How is she with her older kids - like if they call her to lets say watch the grandson - does she go running?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She's not that way with the older kids.

In fact, she's openly skeptical about getting hung out to dry with being a lifetime free babysitter (since SHE never had one), and she left her home at 17-18.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> Earlier I asked about her familial priorities. During my marriage mine were God, wife (spouse), children, family.
> 
> I'm struggling with this dynamic now transitioning from married, to dating and potential long term relationships. My priorities at the moment are the same as before but with wife removed. Casual dates aren't on the list but if I were to find someone to stick with long term I imagine they'd move up the priority list.
> 
> Will they ever take that second spot over my children? I can't honestly say. Does it have the same value in a second marriage? Seems like that's where you find yourself in your marriage.


Does what have the same value?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Does what have the same value?


I think he means the new spouse or gf, do they have the same value as a wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's not that way with the older kids.
> 
> In fact, she's openly skeptical about getting hung out to dry with being a lifetime free babysitter (since SHE never had one), and she left her home at 17-18.


Ok so it sounds like this does stem back to her childhood for sure. What I don't understand is why at this point does it matter so much that you think the same way about this if the children are so close to 18 & she stops being that way with them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> I think he means the new spouse or gf, do they have the same value as a wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think young people should treat those supporting them with courtesy and respect - regardless of biology.

That's where it begins and ends with me.

You do not pause the television and glare at someone when they enter the room.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think young people should treat those supporting them with courtesy and respect - regardless of biology.
> 
> That's where it begins and ends with me.
> 
> You do not pause the television and glare at someone when they enter the room.


When you're talking about basic politeness like that or saying hello if you're coming home. If they are living in a house that is yours or yours & their mother is a no brainer - they cant treat you like a second class citizen. Period. That shouldn't even be part of the debate about where your place is in your wife's world.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> When you're talking about basic politeness like that or saying hello if you're coming home. If they are living in a house that is yours or yours & their mother is a no brainer - they cant treat you like a second class citizen. Period. That shouldn't even be part of the debate about where your place is in your wife's world.


Agreed.

That's all I really needed.

I'm difficult to love sometimes


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That's all I really needed.
> 
> I'm difficult to love sometimes


Lol - well there you go. Nobody is that difficult to love unless they treat other people badly all the time - then karma tends to come back around -you know - you reap what you sow.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

smallsteps said:


> I think he means the new spouse or gf, do they have the same value as a wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I wasn't clear. Actually, what I mean is do the priorities in general matter. The purpose for the priorities is to establish a foundation for the children. Provide a safe and secure environment for the family. 

Now that that is gone, and you're in a blended family, do these matter anymore. 

I see now from your posts that you didn't put a value in a list. Maybe I was wrong in doing so. I don't know. 

I also saw from an earlier post that creating a "list" while in a live relationship is a bad idea. I agree with that. But knowing where a potential mate places his/her priorities early in the relationship would be beneficial and could divert future misunderstandings.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

[Q
UOTE=Ceegee;3012017]Sorry I wasn't clear. Actually, what I mean is do the priorities in general matter. The purpose for the priorities is to establish a foundation for the children. Provide a safe and secure environment for the family. 

Now that that is gone, and you're in a blended family, do these matter anymore. 

I see now from your posts that you didn't put a value in a list. Maybe I was wrong in doing so. I don't know. 

I also saw from an earlier post that creating a "list" while in a live relationship is a bad idea. I agree with that. But knowing where a potential mate places his/her priorities early in the relationship would be beneficial and could divert future misunderstandings.[/QUOTE]

Well I think that's the whole process of dating & getting to know each other before getting too serious. Deep down you know your priorities & what you can & cant live with. If you don't like what you're hearing or see there is no compatibility you move on or keep the realationship casual.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

smallsteps said:


> [Q
> UOTE=Ceegee;3012017]Sorry I wasn't clear. Actually, what I mean is do the priorities in general matter. The purpose for the priorities is to establish a foundation for the children. Provide a safe and secure environment for the family.
> 
> Now that that is gone, and you're in a blended family, do these matter anymore.
> ...


Well I think that's the whole process of dating & getting to know each other before getting too serious. Deep down you know your priorities & what you can & cant live with. If you don't like what you're hearing or see there is no compatibility you move on or keep the realationship casual.[/QUOTE]

Right, this is where I was going (albeit in a long-winded manner) with Conrad. Did he know this was how she was while dating? 

A respectful adult relationship is subjective. Sometimes you need specifics and list help with this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Remember, I've fully admitted codependent behavior.

There were plenty of signs of this.

We always overestimate our ability to "fix things" because that's how a codependent sees the world.

Or, I'll do x... they'll do y in return... covert contract.

Those never work either.

A list is important to collect your thoughts.

In a live relationship, it's the presence of sustained consistent #3's that bring the blood to a boiling point.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

We live & we learn - we change & we grow.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> We live & we learn - we change & we grow.


We also observe and decide if this is what we really want.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> We also observe and decide if this is what we really want.


But sometimes between all the learning-growing-changing & observing the best decision for some is to move on - because they have outgrown the old relationship themselves.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> But sometimes between all the learning-growing-changing & observing the best decision for some is to move on - because they have outgrown the old relationship themselves.


Absolutely.

I'll be a bit more direct.

My kids are grown.

I would never advise a man around 30 to handle a similar situation as I'm handling this one.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I'll be a bit more direct.
> 
> ...


Your right. Situations change when young kids are involved.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

While I was visiting the lumber pile to reward Honorbound, I bumped into this thread we had around Mother's Day.

Well, guess what.... we're now moving towards Christmas Day - a day we feel compelled to be "nice" and perhaps reach out to those that we still love.

Let's kick it around.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

A must read.

One of my favorites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: Re: One Transaction At a Time*



Conrad said:


> While I was visiting the lumber pile to reward Honorbound, I bumped into this thread we had around Mother's Day.
> 
> Well, guess what.... we're now moving towards Christmas Day - a day we feel compelled to be "nice" and perhaps reach out to those that we still love.
> 
> Let's kick it around.


"Those we still love"?

In a sense maybe. 

Reaching out only makes things worse. Keeping to myself is being nice.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> "Those we still love"?
> 
> In a sense maybe.
> 
> Reaching out only makes things worse. Keeping to myself is being nice.


Brother Gee,

If someone feels compelled to reach out to a wayward on a holiday, they still have feelings for them.

And, yes... keeping to yourself is being nice... TO YOU.

And, it's about time.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ok Conrad you and I discussed recently something my stbxh did. 

For the sake of people who don't know, my stbxh called this week and offered to have my Sirius radio renewed, he'd pay. I answered with indifference.

I feel it's just the guilt that made him do it. Again, I think he's doing it for himself. 

Do you think it's possible that there aren't necessarily being nice because they still have feelings for someone but that they are still feeling guilty for what they did?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smallsteps said:


> Ok Conrad you and I discussed recently something my stbxh did.
> 
> For the sake of people who don't know, my stbxh called this week and offered to have my Sirius radio renewed, he'd pay. I answered with indifference.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing.

In the context of this thread, what they do doesn't matter.

It's whatever you are ok with - or not ok with.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> In the context of this thread, what they do doesn't matter.
> 
> It's whatever you are ok with - or not ok with.


Got it. In my case, it doesn't matter, I really don't care what he does.  

I will reach out to people who love and respect me the way I love and respect them.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I think it's the perfect time for newbies to start putting things into practice.

"BUT.. you can BEHAVE your way out of it."

Truer words have never been spoken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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