# A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery. 

If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.

My stbxww said to me in tears "I need to figure out how I could hurt someone I love so much so badly". It's not love. It can't be. She constantly still tells me how much she loves me, that she always did - she never stopped.

That is a lie.

No offence to anybody trying to R with their ws, but if your spouse cheats on you, they do not actually love you, and may be incapable of love. They may think they love you, but that is NOT love.

Love is many things. Respect, loyalty, honesty, protection both physically and emotionally, affection...when your ws f*cks someone else during your marriage, they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are not any of the things that make up love.

It's proof they do not in fact love you.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Does this line of reasoning work for other situations as well?


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Does this line of reasoning work for other situations as well?


Like what?


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## Shoshan1290 (Mar 5, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...



I think by their definition of love they "love" you. In their mind love is interchangeable and free-flowing; it's something that they can put aside when necessary and bring to the table at will.

Does this fit into a realistic idea of what love is? Not at all. The best quote I've read to describe what a relationship is this: _"True intimacy isn’t a cluster **** or a psychodrama. It isn’t the “highest highs and lowest lows.” It isn’t John Donne whispered into your crotch followed by months of not-exactly-agreed-upon celibacy. It’s a tiny bit of those things on occasion with a whole lot of everything else in between. It’s communion and mellow compatibility. It’s friendship and mutual respect."_

I think where many people become lost is in the "friendship" and the "mutual respect" aspect of a relationship. I don't think that it is fully understood that being in love or being in a relationship is not solely a passionate thing. There are tides to relationships -- as with all things -- and they ebb and flow. You don't always want to rip your partners clothes off and shag them 16 times a day; nor should you.

But to many people -- and often times these are people who are already insecure, ill, or of weak of constitution in some way -- that lack of passion equates to a lack of "love", so they turn a switch off inside of themselves somewhere and they hunt down someone else to get that physical/emotional need met. The entire time, though, they fail to realize that in their partner they could have those needs met if only they would communicate. After reading & reading & even from personal experience I have found, though, that these are people who are so caught up in the lying and the justifying that they don't even consider the simplest solution to be feasible (that being TALK to your partner.)

I'm sorry -- I think I went on a tangent here.

In essence I suppose I'm saying that I agree with you. I just find it really sad that so many people are ill and insecure and have no qualms in destroying their relationship, peace, or family. Sure -- your spouse may leave socks on the floor, or be irresponsible with finances, or the intimacy is lacking. Those things happen to EVERYONE and with a bit of elbow-grease and communication they can be worked through. 

Love is not interchangeable with sex. Sex does not make a romance and a relationship has to be nurtured. _"Love doesn’t just sit there, like a stone; it has to be made, like bread; re-made all the time, made new. –Ursula Le Guin, The Lathe of Heaven"_

When people stop making their spouse a priority and stop exploring new things with them and setting aside time to be a couple, or when one spouse checks out of the relationship instead of communicating *THAT* is when the problems occur. 


A huge part of me wishes I could shake all WS's by the shoulders and tell them to wake the f' up and see what they are doing to those who love them.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Let's see......a mother is supposed to love her children correct? Would you say that, by your logic, since my mother beat the Hell out of me for 8yrs, that she did not in fact love me? She has told me numerous times she loves me* BUT*, it must be a lie. If she loved me, she wouldn't have hurt me like that.....right?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


UGH, I fought with myself on posting this but I dont believe this is necessarily true. I think it varies by case to be honest. I love my mother but she's negative and toxic so I stay away from her and havent talked to her in 2 years...doesnt mean that I dont love her because I dont talk to her. My daughter disobeyed me, I took away her computer, phone, ipod, everything electronic. I knew it was breaking her heart because at her age her lifeline to her friends is the most important thing to her. Just because I did that doesnt mean I dont love her.

I just cant say that Im 100% with you on this and Im not a WS.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I do not agree with you at all. I just posted this in another thread:

There are some who wake up after D day and think "OH ****!!" and realize what they're about to lose and really DO do everything in their power to fix it. They never really stopped caring, they put that care and their spouse into a box and segregated them in their brain in order to cheat. They live a double life. I am trying to think of an analogy here. It's kind of like having something you don't want to get wet so you stick it into a watertight box so that when you jump into the ocean, it's still in there, dry, but you are soaking wet along with the rest of your world. Every once in a while you climb out of the ocean with your watertight box, dry off, open up the box and let your spouse out, thinking that you are NEVER going to jump into that ocean EVER again because wtf are you doing. Till the next time you hear that siren call and off you go again with your watertight box in tow.

Anyway my point is that there really are WS's who DON'T stop caring. Maybe those are the ones who do end up as a TRWS


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I do agree with you that YOUR WS never loved you. She's totally messed. But the same is not true of ALL WS's.


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## Shoshan1290 (Mar 5, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I do not agree with you at all. I just posted this in another thread:
> 
> There are some who wake up after D day and think "OH ****!!" and realize what they're about to lose and really DO do everything in their power to fix it. They never really stopped caring, they put that care and their spouse into a box and segregated them in their brain in order to cheat. They live a double life. I am trying to think of an analogy here. It's kind of like having something you don't want to get wet so you stick it into a watertight box so that when you jump into the ocean, it's still in there, dry, but you are soaking wet along with the rest of your world. Every once in a while you climb out of the ocean with your watertight box, dry off, open up the box and let your spouse out, thinking that you are NEVER going to jump into that ocean EVER again because wtf are you doing. Till the next time you hear that siren call and off you go again with your watertight box in tow.
> 
> Anyway my point is that there really are WS's who DON'T stop caring. Maybe those are the ones who do end up as a TRWS


Great analogy!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> UGH, I fought with myself on posting this but I dont believe this is necessarily true. I think it varies by case to be honest. I love my mother but she's negative and toxic so I stay away from her and havent talked to her in 2 years...doesnt mean that I dont love her because I dont talk to her. My daughter disobeyed me, I took away her computer, phone, ipod, everything electronic. I knew it was breaking her heart because at her age her lifeline to her friends is the most important thing to her. Just because I did that doesnt mean I dont love her.
> 
> I just cant say that Im 100% with you on this and Im not a WS.


I kinda get this, and yet I think I understand what TD means.

Define love. The kind your parent has for you is very different than the kind you have for a spouse.

Love from your mother is often manifested in the form of disciplne.

Does a spouse cheat to teach a point? Does a spouse cheat to make you a better person? Do they cheat to make themselves a better spouse? 

Nope.

Cheating is a very loud manifestation that they don't love you.

Food for thought.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't agree. Your WS may not ever have loved you but that's not the case for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Let's see......a mother is supposed to love her children correct? Would you say that, by your logic, since my mother beat the Hell out of me for 8yrs, that she did not in fact love me? She has told me numerous times she loves me* BUT*, it must be a lie. If she loved me, she wouldn't have hurt me like that.....right?


I think your mother doesn't understand what love is and therefore is incapable of it. I love my kids, and so, I would never "beat the hell out of them".


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

LetDownNTX said:


> UGH, I fought with myself on posting this but I dont believe this is necessarily true. I think it varies by case to be honest. I love my mother but she's negative and toxic so I stay away from her and havent talked to her in 2 years...doesnt mean that I dont love her because I dont talk to her. My daughter disobeyed me, I took away her computer, phone, ipod, everything electronic. I knew it was breaking her heart because at her age her lifeline to her friends is the most important thing to her. Just because I did that doesnt mean I dont love her.
> 
> I just cant say that Im 100% with you on this and Im not a WS.


I don't see any of those things you listed as a heinous betrayal of everything that is supposed to be sacred within those institutions. Infidelity is.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> Cheating is a very loud manifestation that they don't love you.


I would REALLY like to know how you guys can come on here and say this about all WS's. You're basically telling me that I am living a lie.

I have no problem with you saying that YOUR WS doesn't love YOU, and never did, but to tell me that mine doesn't love me is the epitome of narcissism IMO. I'd REALLY like to know how you can read his mind, because I want to know how to too!!


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Cheating is a very loud manifestation that they don't love you.


This is true.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I would REALLY like to know how you guys can come on here and say this about all WS's. You're basically telling me that I am living a lie.
> 
> I have no problem with you saying that YOUR WS doesn't love YOU, and never did, but to tell me that mine doesn't love me is the epitome of narcissism IMO. I'd REALLY like to know how you can read his mind, because I want to know how to too!!


You know what Hope? I've always liked you but, today I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

There are no absolutes in love or relationships


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I guess I can only speak for myself. I would never cheat on someone I loved. If I did, it would mean I didn't really love them. Or was incapable of understanding what love is and showing it.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

If you love someone, you don't commit the ultimate act of betrayal against them.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Eh I'm on the fence. Actions will always speak louder than words ever do to me.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Shoshan1290 said:


> I think by their definition of love they "love" you. In their mind love is interchangeable and free-flowing; it's something that they can put aside when necessary and bring to the table at will.


"By their definition of love". Their definition of love is wrong. You can't put love aside. As soon as you do, it's not love any more.


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## Doc Who (Sep 9, 2012)

I am sure there are waywards that still "love" the spouses that they are betraying. And compartmentalization is just one of the possible ways they can betray and "love" at the same time. They can also rationalize (For example "He really doesn't love or care for me, but I love him, so I will screw another man to get the love I need. This will allow me to stay married.) Heck, there are all kinds of stories people tell themselves to do horrible things to others and feel justified in it.

But to address this notion that real love can be compartmentalized - I have two things to say. First, if you can put "real" love in a box and shove it out of sight to carry on a deceitful relationship with another, then either it is a seriously diminished love to fit in that box or it is a defective love that your spouse, if healthy, probably would not accept.

So can a wayward "love" the spouse they are currently betraying? I guess it depends on your definition of love, but apparently some think the answer is yes. What I have learned about myself over the years and through the tortuous path of infidelity is simply this - It is not a love I want, nor deserve, not will I accept it. Healthy love it is NOT.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I don't agree. Your WS may not ever have loved you but that's not the case for everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's not real love.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I guess I can only speak for myself. I would never cheat on someone I loved. If I did, it would mean I didn't really love them. Or was incapable of understanding what love is and showing it.


Thank you. Yes, you can only speak for yourself and your stbxw (who I totally agree is definitely a severe case of delusionality - is that even a word??)

You know what they say about never say never though! I would like to say I would never cheat either, but if I got into an accident and got brain damage and got hooked on pain killers and was living most of my life in a drugged up alternate world of psychedelics where reality was but a faint memory............


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Doc Who said:


> Healthy love it is NOT.


Once again, thanks for reading my husbands mind. Can you please tell me how you did that??


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Doc Who said:


> But to address this notion that real love can be compartmentalized - I have two things to say. First, if you can put "real" love in a box and shove it out of sight to carry on a deceitful relationship with another, then either it is a seriously diminished love to fit in that box or it is a defective love that your spouse, if healthy, probably would not accept.


I don't believe love is something you can shove in a box and stuff in the closet so you can be a sh!tty person. The minute you do that, you are killing that love, if it was ever there in the first place.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> If you love someone, you don't commit the ultimate act of betrayal against them.


Ack. Then you went and wrecked it


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Shoshan1290 said:


> I think by their definition of love they "love" you. In their mind love is interchangeable and free-flowing; it's something that they can put aside when necessary and bring to the table at will.
> 
> Does this fit into a realistic idea of what love is? Not at all. The best quote I've read to describe what a relationship is this: _"True intimacy isn’t a cluster **** or a psychodrama. It isn’t the “highest highs and lowest lows.” It isn’t John Donne whispered into your crotch followed by months of not-exactly-agreed-upon celibacy. It’s a tiny bit of those things on occasion with a whole lot of everything else in between. It’s communion and mellow compatibility. It’s friendship and mutual respect."_
> 
> ...


I think this is a BRILLIANT post! :yay:


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Doc Who said:


> I am sure there are waywards that still "love" the spouses that they are betraying. And compartmentalization is just one of the possible ways they can betray and "love" at the same time. They can also rationalize (For example "He really doesn't love or care for me, but I love him, so I will screw another man to get the love I need. This will allow me to stay married.) Heck, there are all kinds of stories people tell themselves to do horrible things to others and feel justified in it.
> 
> But to address this notion that real love can be compartmentalized - I have two things to say. First, if you can put "real" love in a box and shove it out of sight to carry on a deceitful relationship with another, then either it is a seriously diminished love to fit in that box or it is a defective love that your spouse, if healthy, probably would not accept.
> 
> So can a wayward "love" the spouse they are currently betraying? I guess it depends on your definition of love, but apparently some think the answer is yes. What I have learned about myself over the years and through the tortuous path of infidelity is simply this - It is not a love I want, nor deserve, not will I accept it. Healthy love it is NOT.


Nicely said.

Didn't mean to step on toes that a WS can't "love" their spouse.

Easy people! It is only Tuesday! 

I think what I ment to imply was that it is an action very contray to what I would define as "true love."

Words are cheap, they say. Lol! Often they are hurtful as well.

I would rather love a woman that loves me back through her actions than one that expresses it through her words only.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, I am just glad that I am living my lie. I'm pretty happy in it  I have lots of fun, I feel loved (even though that's apparently only a delusion), I'm growing old with the person *I* love (although, again, I'm deluding myself), and I don't want to be with anyone else. 

I think I'll stay where i am, rather than in the REAL world where everything is black and white.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> I guess I can only speak for myself. I would never cheat on someone I loved. If I did, it would mean I didn't really love them. Or was incapable of understanding what love is and showing it.


Look I wouldn't ever cheat on anyone because I seen what my father did to my mother before he left when I was 12, never to come back.. I seen the torment and pain my mother went through. Mind you my mother was first generation here in this country. She had ZERO family and limited friends to help here console with this. She spoke broken english and busted her ass 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. I worked since I was 12 myself to help out. 

My point is I seen the emotional pain and financial issues it has caused first hand as I lived it. 

I could NEVER do this to someone myself as well. 

I could NEVER imagine my kids being so broke and helpless. To see my kids working to help put food on the table. I love them too much to see them suffer. 

BUT 

People make mistakes. 
It only matters if they can come back from those mistakes and truly feel remorse and truly want to reconcile. Of course the BS needs to want that as well. 

As a friend of mine said, you don't toss out a 19 year relationship in 2 months. It just isn't gonna happen.

If my STBXW truly wanted to reconcile I would have. I know it would have been hard, but I would have tried and fought to keep this, if I could. 

But its not meant to be, she has to live with what she did long after I have forgotten her and have moved on. 

I'm angry like you are TD..

But I know I can't live like this much more.. 
I can't be angry the rest of my life. 
I want to love again, I want to be with someone who wants to be with me.

This just can't be what is left of us.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

**this is only my opinion!! But it's what I believe.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

It's a paradox - that you can love someone and break your marriage vows through infidelity. I can't get past the disconnect...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

People break their marriage vows in other ways too. What about the woman who refuses to have sex with her husband for over a year? That's breaking marriage vows, as far as I am concerned. Is it impossible that she still loves him?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> But its not meant to be, she has to live with what she did long after I have forgotten her and have moved on.
> 
> I'm angry like you are TD..
> 
> ...


It won't be....

Anger is a part of your healing.

Eventually you will find what you wanted all along, someone that "loves" you as deeply as you love them. They are out there.

Your new challenge is to find her! 

I'll be both of you will be a hell of a lot better as husbands and happier when you do.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

I'll bet... lol typos!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I do not agree with you at all. I just posted this in another thread:
> 
> There are some who wake up after D day and think "OH ****!!" and realize what they're about to lose and really DO do everything in their power to fix it. They never really stopped caring, they put that care and their spouse into a box and segregated them in their brain in order to cheat. They live a double life. I am trying to think of an analogy here. It's kind of like having something you don't want to get wet so you stick it into a watertight box so that when you jump into the ocean, it's still in there, dry, but you are soaking wet along with the rest of your world. Every once in a while you climb out of the ocean with your watertight box, dry off, open up the box and let your spouse out, thinking that you are NEVER going to jump into that ocean EVER again because wtf are you doing. Till the next time you hear that siren call and off you go again with your watertight box in tow.
> 
> Anyway my point is that there really are WS's who DON'T stop caring. Maybe those are the ones who do end up as a TRWS


This is almost verbatim what my wife has told me. 
And OP, the definition of love is subjective, like most ideas and feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

naga75 said:


> This is almost verbatim what my wife has told me.
> And OP, the definition of love is subjective, like most ideas and feelings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well then everything is subjective and there are no absolutes. So what's the point of taking the vows then?


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> People break their marriage vows in other ways too. What about the woman who refuses to have sex with her husband for over a year? That's breaking marriage vows, as far as I am concerned. Is it impossible that she still loves him?


That's a good question. But I don't see that in the same way I see adultery.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

The-Deceived,
I believe you are 100% correct in your assessment of marital love. There is no "disconnect" and there is no "paradox" to your reasoning. You are correct and it is time to accept your new found knowledge. A spouse who commits adultery does NOT love their spouse. 

In my personal experience with my WW and other adulterers, I have never met a single cheater whom I thought in the end, "Ya, they loved their spouse even though they cheated on them."

I thought many long hours about my WW's affair and what it meant in terms of "love". It eventually lead me down a path where I no longer believe even in the concept of "love". I would much prefer now to be "respected" than "loved". My $0.02


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> That's a good question. But I don't see that in the same way I see adultery.


Well, it isn't on the same level of betrayal, although if my husband refused to have sex with me for months or years it would be a dealbreaker for me. It's a matter of degrees, isn't it? And really, you either break your wedding vows or you don't. It's like being pregnant - you either are or you aren't. You're either true or you're not.


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## boogie110 (Aug 3, 2012)

I totally get you - totally. I used to believe the same.

Now, with time and a lot of reading - around 50 plus books that I have available and ready at all times to re-read and look at various parts, I now find that my assumption was incorrect.

But, that doesn't mean that we all who have been cheated upon can just dismiss the brutal betrayal - and that is what cheating is.

It is brutal - it is not hate or loathing. It is not that the cheater did not love us - (some maybe hate or loathe the spouse,) but in reality, cheating is really all about what the WS thinks and can get away with. It is simple selfishness at its core. It is childishness. My parents - both of them - were extremely selfish people. They are divorced. My mother still is very selfish and she betrayed me, not cheated of course, but betrayed me throughout my childhood and is actually even more selfish in her old age. My father is much less selfish in his old age. Selfish, bad parents in many ways, no understanding of their various betrayals to me, unable to see their own brokenness, unready to be parents - BUT they still loved me in their own ways.

My WS - selfish, destructive to me, cheater, unbelievable betrayals, dismissive, demeaning, disrespectful - but did love me in his own way. Not the kind of love I needed. He loved himself first and most. He made me believe he loved me first and most. Very very deceptive. This is all true. But with the truth is understanding, that broken people can and do love - they just don't love the way we want or expect them to.

At least you are getting out. Good luck with the next one..........

the one you know may be better than the one you don't...but let's be positive or at least single...


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> I believe you are 100% correct in your assessment of marital love. There is no "disconnect" and there is no "paradox" to your reasoning. You are correct and it is time to accept your new found knowledge. A spouse who commits adultery does NOT love their spouse.
> 
> In my personal experience with my WW and other adulterers, I have never met a single cheater whom I thought in the end, "Ya, they loved their spouse even though they cheated on them."
> ...


Well put.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I know this is an inflammatory subject, and again, it is only my opinion.

No disrespect intended towards anyone trying to R.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> I believe you are 100% correct in your assessment of *some *marital love. There is no "disconnect" and there is no "paradox" to your reasoning *as it applies to me and you anyway*. You are correct and it is time to accept your new found knowledge *for yourself as well*. *Many* spouse*s* who commit adultery do NOT love their spouse.
> 
> In my personal experience with my WW and other adulterers, I have never met a single cheater whom I thought in the end, "Ya, they loved their spouse even though they cheated on them."
> ...


There, I fixed it for you


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Well then everything is subjective and there are no absolutes. So what's the point of taking the vows then?


Correct. There are no absolutes. 
The reasons for taking the vows can themselves be considered subjective. 
Im not pressing that you are "wrong", just that you are right in your own situation. 
Thats all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I guess we can boil it down to this: my definition of love is different than someone who thinks their ws loves them. 

IMO - the act of cheating is the murder of love - the instant it occurs.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


Every person and relationship are different so I don't think generalizing is possible. However, I can see how it could prove MANY WS's do not love their BS's, or are otherwise incapable of love. 

What I do think cheating proves, in many cases, that WS's don't love *themselves* and have no idea in hell how to communicate, solve problems, or think of anyone besides themselves.

I asked him many times why he didn't just leave. Then I have to remind myself that my logic and his, especially during his A, are not one of the same. As many others have said, it's a real **** sandwich we're handed in this situation. It sucks.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I know this is an inflammatory subject, and again, it is only my opinion.
> 
> No disrespect intended towards anyone trying to R.


Well, it's kind of hard to feel respected when you're basically told you're delusional and your spouse doesn't really love you.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> the act of cheating is the murder of love - the instant it occurs.


No, it's the murder of the marriage.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Well the vows also say for better or worse.
So, if my spouse breaks their vows, does that absolutely mean that i should break mine as well?
See?
Subjective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, it's kind of hard to feel respected when you're basically told you're delusional and your spouse doesn't really love you.


Maybe your spouse loves you now...but I don't believe he did at the time he was cheating (imo).


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

naga75 said:


> Well the vows also say for better or worse.
> So, if my spouse breaks their vows, does that absolutely mean that i should break mine as well?
> See?
> Subjective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course not. But legally and morally, infidelity is a reason to divorce (if you choose).


----------



## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Maybe your spouse loves you now...but I don't believe he did at the time he was cheating (imo).


I can very likely agree with this. 
But, i wasnt real loveable at that time, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> Maybe your spouse loves you now...but I don't believe he did at the time he was cheating (imo).


Maybe he didn't - he claims he did, and I think he did, but who really knows?

And that isn't how your OP came across either.

And I admit this subject gets my back up. There's a history on here of certain posters going at those of us who R again and again, thankfully that's pretty much ended now, but when you're forced to listen to drivel like that over and over you do get to the point where you've had enough.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Maybe he didn't - he claims he did, and I think he did, but who really knows?
> 
> And that isn't how your OP came across either.
> 
> And I admit this subject gets my back up. There's a history on here of certain posters going at those of us who R again and again, thankfully that's pretty much ended now, but when you're forced to listen to drivel like that over and over you do get to the point where you've had enough.


I wasn't going at anyone...just expressing how I feel. Best of luck to all who want to reconcile. I truly hope you find happiness and joy in your marriage and life.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I wasn't going at anyone...just expressing how I feel.


I know that. That's why I was nice to you


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I know that. That's why I was nice to you


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


That's a nice, simple explanation.

*But, you know, the trouble with nice simple explanations is that they are often so very, very wrong.*

My wife cheated on me. But she loved me. I cheated on my wife, yet I still loved her. Incidentally, the fact that I loved my wife, yet cheated on her was what left me feeling so broken by my betrayal of her.

There are many other examples on TAM of people who cheated on the spouse, yet who still really loved their wife or husband.

But I suppose by pretending that your WS never loved you might work in that it insulates you from any further problems. I mean, if you 'kick them to the kerb' you never have to give them a chance to make things up to you, to reconcile.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> That's a nice, simple explanation.
> 
> *But, you know, the trouble with nice simple explanations is that they are often so very, very wrong.*
> 
> ...


Like I said - we have different definitions of "love". For me, a massive component of love is fidelity. Take that away, it's not real love.

You are "kicked to the curb" the moment your ws f*cks somebody else.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Like I said - we have different definitions of "love". For me, a massive component of love is fidelity. Take that away, it's not real love.
> 
> You are "kicked to the curb" the moment your ws f*cks somebody else.


*Not if you do not want to be!*


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> *Not if you do not want to be!*


What, kicked to the curb?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> What, kicked to the curb?


Yes! You can lie on the kerb, and stay there or pick yourself up and say: "No. I am not letting this happen!"


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Yes! You can lie on the kerb, and stay there or pick yourself up and say: "No. I am not letting this happen!"


True. But you were kicked to the curb when your ws cheated on you (I don't mean you specifically). I picked myself up, dusted off, gave it a go and realized I didn't want to R.

Again - I'm only expressing my opinion. I don't pretend to know more than anyone else. Love IS subjective. To me, love and infidelity are oil and water.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> True. But you were kicked to the curb when your ws cheated on you (I don't mean you specifically). I picked myself up, dusted off, gave it a go and realized I didn't want to R.
> 
> Again - I'm only expressing my opinion. I don't pretend to know more than anyone else. Love IS subjective. To me, love and infidelity are oil and water.


But you can use oil and water to create some stunning effects. The Victorians perfected the art of printing on paper using water and oil-based paints.


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

And the word love here could possibly be interchanged with care or respect... I see where OP is going with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Doc Who (Sep 9, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Once again, thanks for reading my husbands mind. Can you please tell me how you did that??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Who 
Healthy love it is NOT.

Can you please tell me how you conclude that I am reading anyone's mind? If you cannot, please refrain from making unsubstantiated and frankly snippy claims. Thank you. I read no one's mind. It was not necessary.

If you think it was healthy love that your husband was giving you when he was having sex with his OW, then good for you. I am glad you find healthy, positive aspects of his affair with respect to love for you. You are an amazing person.

But, and I will make this claim without reading anyone's mind - when someone intentionally, YES INTENTIONALLY, breaks their vows repeatedly, that is not a healthy love.

The fact you think someone's mind needs to be read to understand if it is healthy or not indicates something that you might wish to address.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Continued healing friend


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> UGH, I fought with myself on posting this but I dont believe this is necessarily true. I think it varies by case to be honest. I love my mother but she's negative and toxic so I stay away from her and havent talked to her in 2 years...doesnt mean that I dont love her because I dont talk to her. My daughter disobeyed me, I took away her computer, phone, ipod, everything electronic. I knew it was breaking her heart because at her age her lifeline to her friends is the most important thing to her. Just because I did that doesnt mean I dont love her.
> 
> I just cant say that Im 100% with you on this and Im not a WS.


Maybe I'll get skewered for this but...

Yes, and I think there can be conflicting feelings. Some would argue that you can have romantic feelings for more than one person at a time. The question comes down to do you love your spouse ENOUGH not to act on those feelings. 
This is the reason many women cheat. There's a rift in the marriage and while there's love, the rift is enough to tip the scale far enough that they cross that line.
If you asked many of the WS on here they would say that when the marriage was at its best they never would have even thought about cheating. But after a few years of not enough attention and bad communication....

You can truly hurt someone you love. Ask any WS.

You say that's not love but that is only so you can understand it better, not because its true. It's an oversimplification.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I really believe that going in to the relationship that in some inate way, that they deceive themselves first into believing that they do, in fact, love you; or if they don't exactly feel that way initially, that in time, they might feel a marked potential for that love to come to flourish.

In essence, the "cheater" has already got their "practice sessions" in by initially deceiving themselves. Once that act has been accomplished, then they can move on to deceiving others.

They have so aptly proven that they cannot truly love others more than they love themselves or their own jaded sense of entitlement.

Isn't it amazing that a cheating wife can find it in her heart to leave a husband she finds that she does not love, and break up the nucleus of that family in the process. Then she runs off into the arms a paramour where she once again thinks that love really resides, sadly finding in time that she was, once again, mistaken!

And if her paramour had an ounce of common sense, he would have to face the realization that if this cheater would do this to her husband, that in time, she would repeat the entire process in doing the very same thing to him.

But alas, these "stage door johnny's" seem to be moreso governed by their raging hormones and their anatomy rather than by that logic and common sense~ greatly leading one to think that, they too, have contracted that same malady and are just as incapable of true and lasting love as is the cheater!


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Knowing my WH's past, the way he was brought up, etc., I can see that while he thinks he knows what love is, his feelings are very skewed. I truly don't believe he knows how to love. I've come to realize that his recently diagnosed mental illness is a part of this, but that doesn't make his actions any less painful to me. He was telling me how much he loved me while moments before he had written an email to a former lover, telling her how much he loved her then, and will always love her...how much her kisses meant to him and how no one else's kisses have ever done that to him. Similar words to those he's spoken to me as well. 

He doesn't have a clue how to love. Knowing this doesn't change the pain it causes me either. I've not confronted him with what I know for several reasons, but I suppose the main reason is that having had some recent surgeries, I'm not in a position to be independent just yet. My first reaction was to confront him, but then I had to think about the consequences because once I confront him, I feel the only option is for my marriage to end. I'm conflicted in "using" him financially when I am withdrawing emotionally, but I also have my daughter to think about in this ordeal. She is developmentally disabled, and she adores my husband. 

With my husband having been diagnosed with multiple mental problems, including class b personality disorder, I think he'll want to blame it all on this. I'm just not sure that cuts it in the end. Even if that does explain his actions, I still feel unloved by him at the end of the day. And just when I think the pain of DDay is over, I am sitting here crying all over again. I don't even know for certain what the trigger was this time.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.


I disagree. I believe there are varying degrees of love. Perhaps someone who betrays you does in fact love you, but it obviously is not a "pure" love. Perhaps they believed they would never get caught so therefore there would be no "harm" to you in their eyes.

That line of thinking is certainly flawed as they are forgetting about "respecting" their partner and how selfish they are being, but I still think they can love their spouse. Forgetting about or not grasping consequences does not equate to lack of love, imo.

Like the song, it is a "Tainted Love".


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

Pet peave alert!



Hardtohandle said:


> People make mistakes.


When you're calculating the tip on your restaurant tab and forget to carry the 1, that's a mistake.

Infidelity requires a person to systematically cycle through a series of decisions where 1) the right and wrong choices are very clear, 2) the devastating impact of the wrong decision is a known quantity 3) the infidel knowingly selects the wrong chioce repeatedly, 4) a sustained campaign of deceit is required to cover the decision-making, 5) the infidel is knowingly submitting the betrayed spouse to the most devastating emotional abuse imaginable, 6) the infidel justifies making the series of wrong choices by blaming his/her devastated victim . . .

and etcetera . . .

and etcetera . . .

Equating infidelity to "making a mistake" is tantamount to equating a nuclear detonation to a Fourth of July fireworks display.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Anytime you believe and make a general statement like your's, you are guaranteed to offend and come off sounding like a close minded bitter soul. 

My example: I talked to plenty of men and women too, who swear they love their spouse and families but believe that cheating is essential to the survival of their marriage. Why? Because their spouses are not interested in sex. I'm not saying this is right and in my opinion it is f'ed up, but I can't begin to assume they don't love their spouse because they are cheating, 

Generalizations are "generally" wrong 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

The-Deceived said:


> Like I said - we have different definitions of "love". For me, a massive component of love is fidelity. Take that away, it's not real love.
> 
> You are "kicked to the curb" the moment your ws f*cks somebody else.


I agree and disagree. I bet you love your parents, close friends, siblings, and children.... but fidelity is not a condition of that love.

"Love" is one of those words that really needs more descriptors to define what kind of love it is. As you've used it, I call that Romantic Love or Hallmark Love (where there is a lover ideology of walking hand in hand exchanging kisses aspect). If you dig even deeper in yourself defining love, you'll find a lot of other emotions tied up in there too like lust, passion, respect, etc. And totally agree that I do not think Hallmark Love can exist and cheating occur.

I know my wife loved me. She loved me as a father to our kids, provider, family member, etc... just not in a "Hallmark for better or worse, until death do us part" way. I finally "get" ILYBNILWY" speak...


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Generalizations are "generally" wrong
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kermitty, that is too funny! I would generally agree about generalizations.

One thought I have about the meaning of love follows the old golden rule; would you do something, if you truely love them, that you would not want them to do to you?

I hope that this idea does not irritate any of those coping with issues in their relationship. We all have hurt, or we wouldn't be spending time on TAM (generalization). 

It is a given that others do not share this view. It is also my opinion that all love is on a spectrum. Shades of grey (not refering to those naughty books).

Maybe our disagreement is what shade of grey defines love.

Don't you just enjoy the debate? It is generally good for the soul to reflect and think as life gives us challenges.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

You made my day Hope1964! Thanks for liking my post. I "Hope" you will feel the love you deserve.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> We have different definitions of "love". For me, a massive component of love is fidelity. Take that away, it's not real love.
> 
> You are "kicked to the curb" the moment your ws f*cks somebody else.


In total agreement with you that fidelity is the most binding thing in most all marriages. If it weren't, then the wording for most of our religious as well as civil marriage ceremonies would not bother to contain it.

Fidelity is also a two-fold thing in that it can be greatly jeopardized and traumatized not only by the physical act of infidelity, but even moreso by the emotional act of such; which, in and of itself, can be so much more damning than the physical affair itself. It is at the emotional level where trust goes away, and in turn, transfers over to the new love interest. Without that emotional transfer, the physical part of the affair would be next to impossible.

IMHO, it is at the emotional level of infidelity where the marriage is really lost. The accompanying sex inherent in the physical act of infidelity is really deemed to be little more than the consumation of the cheaters newfound relationship!

The marriage really begins to die when the EA is in its primary stages of development. By the time that the EA has fully ran its course, the marital love and respect is pretty much a bygone characteristic, regardless of whether or not that the PA has even started!


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

AM2013 said:


> I think there are many reasons and feelings in infidelity. My WH described it to me like this:
> 
> We had a big fight, he moved out and stayed in a hotel. My ex best friend called him and invited him over to comfort him. She told him that I had confided in her that I didn't love him. He believed it because we had been fighting. Then she made several drinks for them and they had sex.
> 
> ...


That was well said. Thanks for sharing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OK I am calmer today 

Someone once told me that the secret to a long and happy marriage is to never fall out of love at the same time, and that has really stuck with me. I really do believe that our love waxes and wanes over the years. The feelings I had for him for the couple of years before D day certainly weren't 'in love' feelings, but I did still love him. I think we both were in it for the long haul, but we'd also both decided to just soldier on in the face of adversity until something changed. And he decided that, while he waited, he'd get a little action on the side. I know he intended that I would never find out. He wasn't wracked with guilt about it - he had convinced himself that it was his 'due' because of the way I was treating him. But he still wanted to grow old with me, and he really did think that the whole bad time would just blow over eventually and we'd reconnect.

So, I guess you can call that love, or not, whatever you prefer. We certainly were not IN love at that time, but the potential for it was still there.

I think what pisses me off about these discussions are the people who insinuate, or just say outright, that there is no way the he loves me _today_ because of the fact he cheated. That just isn't true. The 'read his mind' comment was a result of me feeling this was being insinuated, so if this isn't what you were saying I apologize.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> Without that emotional transfer, the physical part of the affair would be next to impossible. [\QUOTE]
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> Kermitty, that is too funny! I would generally agree about generalizations.


Thanks!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> Without that emotional transfer, the physical part of the affair would be next to impossible.
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by this?_Posted via Mobile Device_


What I mean by this is: only with rare exception, a physical affair(PA) between a couple is not really going to first come to fruition, without the marked presence of a prior emotional affair(EA). The EA greatly provides the impetus for the PA.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> Pet peave alert!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup.


----------



## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> What I mean by this is: only with rare exception, a physical affair(PA) between a couple is not really going to first come to fruition, without the marked presence of a prior emotional affair(EA). The EA greatly provides the impetus for the PA.


Thanks for clarifying.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I think my only issue with this is the title of the thread. It's too absolute. Too definite. The Universe just isn't like that.

How do I know Regret loved me during her affair?

Because I felt loved. I truly felt her love when we were together. There is no way to prove that just as there is no way to dispute it.

THAT is the Universe.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> There, I fixed it for you


LOL...Did you fix it for me or did you fix it for you?


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

The-Deceived,
Do you sense the denial in some of these responses? This is an example of the evilness of adultery. Good people having to desperately rationalize the meaning of there cheater's behavior. Who the hell would accept some of these definitions of love before they got married. Imagine someone's spouse turning to them the night before their wedding day and saying, "I am going to cheat on you with your sister and you are going to believe I loved you."

I bet if you changed the title to your thread to "A MURDERER doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is" people would rationalize the murderer's behavior to show they loved the victim.

I sat in a Planned Parenthood office for four hours waiting for an HIV/STD test because my WW did not think condoms were necessary because her OM was married too. I then had to wait seven days for the result. My stomach was in a knot when I called for the results. Thank God they came back negative.

Cheater's love? Please....


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> OK I am calmer today
> 
> Someone once told me that the secret to a long and happy marriage is to never fall out of love at the same time, and that has really stuck with me. I really do believe that our love waxes and wanes over the years. The feelings I had for him for the couple of years before D day certainly weren't 'in love' feelings, but I did still love him. I think we both were in it for the long haul, but we'd also both decided to just soldier on in the face of adversity until something changed. And he decided that, while he waited, he'd get a little action on the side. I know he intended that I would never find out. He wasn't wracked with guilt about it - he had convinced himself that it was his 'due' because of the way I was treating him. But he still wanted to grow old with me, and he really did think that the whole bad time would just blow over eventually and we'd reconnect.
> 
> ...


Right, I wasn't saying he doesn't love you now. And it sounds like you are both happy. I'm happy for you. 

Oh jeez - just got an "I love you" text from the stbxww. :scratchhead:


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> Do you sense the denial in some of these responses? This is an example of the evilness of adultery. Good people having to desperately rationalize the meaning of there cheater's behavior. Who the hell would accept some of these definitions of love before they got married. Imagine someone's spouse turning to them the night before their wedding day and saying, "I am going to cheat on you with your sister and you are going to believe I loved you."
> 
> I bet if you changed the title to your thread to "A MURDERER doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is" people would rationalize the murderer's behavior to show they loved the victim.
> ...


Yes, this is how I feel, and well said. 

I have to go get tested too. Not looking forward to that.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> Do you sense the denial in some of these responses? This is an example of the evilness of adultery. Good people having to desperately rationalize the meaning of there cheater's behavior. Who the hell would accept some of these definitions of love before they got married. Imagine someone's spouse turning to them the night before their wedding day and saying, "I am going to cheat on you with your sister and you are going to believe I loved you."
> 
> I bet if you changed the title to your thread to "A MURDERER doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is" people would rationalize the murderer's behavior to show they loved the victim.
> ...


Well, as a ws as well as a bs, i see both sides of the issue. 
Although, there was no emotional involvement in my forays whatsoever, in my wifes case, there was. 
I simply did not respect my marriage or my wife. 
But i loved her, in any event. I always have loved her and i have never let any other woman have that part of me since the day we met. 
So you can call it denial or whatever youd like, but i know how i felt, and i know that even though i willingly hurt her, i still felt a deep and emotional love for her. Hence the unending guilt i had then and that i am finally beginning to grt rid of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> Do you sense the denial in some of these responses?


I am curious - do you think I am in denial about anything today?


----------



## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Love itself is no more subjective than the color red. some people just happen to be colorblind.

If you reject everything in the Judeo-Christian tradition, consider accepting the translation of Corinthians 13:4-7 that the Catholics use.

_Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres._​
Does that sound like a wayward spouse? They may have loved you before and they may love you again, but unless (perhaps) you are in an open marriage, they don't love you during.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> Oh jeez - just got an "I love you" text from the stbxww. :scratchhead:


Good lord she is one totally whacked out carbon-based unit, isn't she?


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

naga75 said:


> Well, as a ws as well as a bs, i see both sides of the issue.
> Although, there was no emotional involvement in my forays whatsoever, in my wifes case, there was.
> I simply did not respect my marriage or my wife.
> But i loved her, in any event. I always have loved her and i have never let any other woman have that part of me since the day we met.
> ...


IMO, if that was love you had for her, it was a sick and unhealthy love.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Labcoat said:


> Love itself is no more subjective than the color red. some people just happen to be colorblind.
> 
> If you reject everything in the Judeo-Christian tradition, consider accepting the translation of Corinthians 13:4-7 that the Catholics use.
> 
> ...


This. So Hope, I don't believe you are in denial today.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Good lord she is one totally whacked out carbon-based unit, isn't she?


Maybe a tad.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Labcoat said:


> _Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres._​
> Does that sound like a wayward spouse? They may have loved you before and they may love you again, but unless (perhaps) you are in an open marriage, they don't love you during.


That not only doesn't describe him, but it also doesn't describe ME. And not only before D day, but today. I am not always patient or kind. I am proud sometimes. I am DEFINITELY easily angered, especially since quitting smoking in January. I admit to keeping a record of wrongs sometimes. I certainly do not trust him always!!!

So are you saying I don't love him?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> I bet if you changed the title to your thread to "A MURDERER doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is" people would rationalize the murderer's behavior to show they loved the victim.
> 
> Cheater's love? Please....


Have you heard of postpartum psychosis? 

I believe you are just projecting your hurt onto others who have cheated. Not everyone's situation is just like yours. No one is asking you to believe your wife loved you while she was cheating on you.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> _Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres._​
> Does that sound like a wayward spouse? They may have loved you before and they may love you again, but unless (perhaps) you are in an open marriage, they don't love you during.


That doesn't sound like a lot of spouses,except on an occassional good day, wayward or not. To say that my husband doesn't love me if he is not being paitent or kind at a certain moment, is a little drastic.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


We also steal from blind people, kick crippled beagles, pull the wings off of flies, and rub our boogers on your toothbrush at night while you are asleep.

Mocking orphans we save for special occasions. Mocking idiots isn't actually a sin but we do it anyway.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> We also steal from blind people, kick crippled beagles, pull the wings off of flies, and rub our boogers on your toothbrush at night while you are asleep.
> 
> Mocking orphans we save for special occasions. Mocking idiots isn't actually a sin but we do it anyway.


At least you're honest. It's a step in the right direction I suppose...

Oh, I see you added that last line in after the fact.

Feel guilty much?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> If you love someone, you don't commit the ultimate act of betrayal against them.


So...she stole your money, ruined your reputation, turned your kids against you, took your house, made you lose your job and when you were a penniless hobo, she shot you and made it look like a suicide.

Or were you talking about some other 'ultimate betrayal'?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Oh jeez - just got an "I love you" text from the stbxww. :scratchhead:


Sidenote for the thread....

I'll bet you will hear these ILY's up until 1) you find another woman, or 2) she finds another man.

If 1 happens first, Katie bar the door! Lol! Watch the heat melt all of that Canadian snow! 

Glad to know that you are thinking through all of these great mysteries of life. Your thoughts help me too.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> That's not real love.


So...I'm talking to the step mom. She's going on about Christianity. I mention a couple names of Christians who did some pretty bad things.

"Oh...those weren't REAL Christians..." (despite some of them being pastors of rather large churches).

So the aqua rega test of 'love' for you is 'never ever cheat'.

Let me guess. 'Real' love never waxes or wanes. 'Real' love means never being angry. 'Real' love means you never purposefully hurt your spouse. 'Real' love...is it a REAL product or some Platonic ideal?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you only hurt the ones you love

or something like that


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Deceived, all WS are not immature, psychopathic, unloving, crazy, needy, narcissistic tramps. Some of us are caring, loving people who made the wrong choice to deal with issues inside ourselves or inside our marriages. We are struggling to fix what we broke every day. 

You do not know if I am incapable of love. You have no idea what any WS is capable of except your own flawed wife. Oh and the second hand stories you read on an anonymous forum. 

It is frustrating to see blanket statements like that. I'd never post about how all BS are frigid and cold and distant just because my husband behaves like that. That would be insulting and downright untrue.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> So...she stole your money, ruined your reputation, turned your kids against you, took your house, made you lose your job and when you were a penniless hobo, she shot you and made it look like a suicide.
> 
> Or were you talking about some other 'ultimate betrayal'?


Oh boy. Touched a nerve within this ws. I'm sure you're really a swell guy.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Sidenote for the thread....
> 
> I'll bet you will hear these ILY's up until 1) you find another woman, or 2) she finds another man.
> 
> ...


Cheers brother.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> IMO, if that was love you had for her, it was a sick and unhealthy love.


I would agree that it was certainly unhealthy at that time. 
But love, nonetheless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> So...I'm talking to the step mom. She's going on about Christianity. I mention a couple names of Christians who did some pretty bad things.
> 
> "Oh...those weren't REAL Christians..." (despite some of them being pastors of rather large churches).
> 
> ...


Keep guessing. You're getting colder, friendo.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shoshan1290 said:


> But to many people -- and often times these are people who are already insecure, ill, or of weak of constitution in some way -- that lack of passion equates to a lack of "love", so they turn a switch off inside of themselves somewhere and they hunt down someone else to get that physical/emotional need met. The entire time, though, they fail to realize that in their partner they could have those needs met if only they would communicate. After reading & reading & even from personal experience I have found, though, that these are people who are so caught up in the lying and the justifying that they don't even consider the simplest solution to be feasible (that being TALK to your partner.)
> 
> I'm sorry -- I think I went on a tangent here.




Yeah, you went on a tangent, but it was a very striking tangent.

Let us leave aside cheaters for a moment. Many walk away wives will tell you _at length and pungently_ how many times they talked to their spouse about what they needed, what the problems were and constantly got ignored or a 'fix' which lasted all of two weeks.

Guess what, some CHEATERS have done the same thing. But Mr. or Mrs. Wonderful, who somehow bring in a mathematical 50% of the problems (never more? Really?) just...can't...be...bothered. The problems, the faults, sorry...can't be dealt with, aren't important...my privacy is TOO important to talk to a counselor. We can fix it on our own...except it never is.

I am not saying cheaters are paragons of morality or love. But frankly, they are stuck with two rotten options. Mr. Wonderful ain't changing. So it's divorce...which sucks for EVERYONE...or faulty hurtful immoral choices which are initially less painful...until Mr. Wonderful finds out.

Everyone knows how to 'fix' social security and medicare...but no one does anything about it. When the crisis comes, it will be devestating. So too with a lot of marriage woes. They are there. Frequently, (not always) NO ONE is fixing them...including the BS.

And so the tragedy happens..by choice I'll freely admit. But there were TWO stagehands working on that play.

This is not EVERY wayward spouse. This isn't every betrayed spouse. But it's certainly much more common than anyone on this board cares to admit.

I get tired of absolutes.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Love itself is no more subjective than the color red. some people just happen to be colorblind.
> 
> If you reject everything in the Judeo-Christian tradition, consider accepting the translation of Corinthians 13:4-7 that the Catholics use.
> 
> ...


Please!
Are you actually believing you loved you Ex the way Love is described above?
Unless you are in complete denial about yourself the answer is NO. So... you didn't love her actualy, right?

EDIT
I saw Hope1964 said it more succinctly.
EDIT2
An many others. Nonte to myself: I should refrain from posting before reading the lat post.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Is there some way to have a 'cooling off' period for some of these betrayed spouses who are still in the 'want to break a chair over their heads' stage?

Lots of heat but little light.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I never typed that.
> 
> But I don't believe you truly loved your husband when you spread your legs for another man.



that's out of line for starters

and secondly, you have no idea what she was thinking because I doubt she was "thinking" at all when she engaged in her affair

you can deny all you wish due to your own experience but the truth of the matter is that people who engage in any sort of immoral or unfair activity have usually justified the act to themselves and also likely compartmentalized the deed separate and away from the wronged person

doesn't make it right and by no means is it a loving act and is truly selfish in nature, but to state that the person has no love for the betrayed is not necessarily a true statement


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I never typed that.
> 
> But I don't believe you truly loved your husband when you spread your legs for another man.


I like how you didn't address the bulk of my post. That was good. And oh telling me I "spread my legs for another man." Classy. Then again, I never HAD a PA. I never even kissed the om. 

And yes I love my husband very much. He fathered my children and saw me at my best and worst. Do I feel romantic love for him? That remains to be seen. 

My point is how would you know what every WS feels? I'm assuming you were mean and neglectful to your wife. Didn't listen when she told you she was unhappy. Told her this is what marriage is. Know what I am basing that on? My own husband's behavior. Does that make it true? Nope. Because I can't base EVERY BS on the behavior of THE ONE that I know personally.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Oh boy. Touched a nerve within this ws. I'm sure you're really a swell guy.


Read my sig.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Is there some way to have a 'cooling off' period for some of these betrayed spouses who are still in the 'want to break a chair over their heads' stage?
> 
> Lots of heat but little light.


I don't want to hurt anyone, including myself.

I'm sure you were justified when you betrayed your wife. And truly loved her, too.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Also she never spread her legs for anyone but her husband .. when he dared to,
Her's was an EA.

EDT
Again I posted before reading the whole thing!


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Read my sig.


OK. Now what?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I choose to believe my husband never fell out of love with me because he and I have talked about it ad nauseum. If random internet personas disagree with me, c'est la vie I guess!

TD, are you trying to get yourself banned??


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I don't want to hurt anyone, including myself.
> 
> I'm sure you were justified when you betrayed your wife. And truly loved her, too.


I know you're in pain my friend but if you continue to engage in discourse in this manner you will get yourself banned and not be able to receive the help you want/need


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I don't want to hurt anyone, including myself.
> 
> I'm sure you were justified when you betrayed your wife. And truly loved her, too.


Nope. We had spent the prior 16 years grinding that emotion into the dust..

WE did!

No me. Not her. WE!

So...while she was wringing out all the loveI had for her in me, was she 'truly' loving me?


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> To say that my husband doesn't love me if he is not being paitent or kind at a certain moment, is a little drastic.


It doesn't say _always_ patient. It says patient. If you are occasionally impatient with someone but you still put up with them, that sure as heck is patient in my book!

We can poke holes in just about any bit of wisdom, especially some of the stuff in the Bible. But it still serves as a much better and persevering understanding of love than the crap my wayward--and many other waywards described here--try to sell us as an understanding of "love."


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Right, I wasn't saying he doesn't love you now. And it sounds like you are both happy. I'm happy for you.
> 
> Oh jeez - just got an "I love you" text from the stbxww. :scratchhead:


Wrong person? 

Sorry Im not familiar with your story so I dont know.

The fact that you said STBXWW implies its rather awkward.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I believe my WS loves me. Drug addiction does crazy things to a person's mind. I like to think Hope is correct. Lots of people reconcile marriages and truly love one another.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> But it still serves as a much better and persevering understanding of love than the crap my wayward--and many other waywards described here--try to sell us as an understanding of "love."


The point being that you say "many" and not "all." I agree that many wayward spouses may in fact not love their spouse while cheating on them, but I would never say ALL. 

There are some betrayed spouses who admit to being turned on by the confession of their WS behavior. I would never think to then conclude that all BS are turned on by this behaviour but are just afraid to admit it. 

There are always exceptions to everything and everyone. You may be wrong in thinking you are the exception some time, but those exceptions still exist.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

My wife stopped loving me - as a husband, as a lover - as she fell for OM. She put me in a different role in her heart. And she suffered a lot in this process o carrying the contradictory life. She couln't pretend. She's not of the type to have extra "fun", she falls in love. She can't compartimentalize, she can't love two people. She just can't.
Many others do. I know it's true.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Acabado said:


> My wife stopped loving me - as a husband, as a lover - as she fell for OM. She put me in a different role in her heart. And she suffered a lot in this process o carrying the contradictory life. She couln't pretend. She's not of the type to have extra "fun", she falls in love. She can't compartimentalize, she can't love two people. She just can't.
> Many others do. I know it's true.


This. 
My fww did the same thing. She still had the love for me as the father of our children, but relegated me to that part if her heart. Thats all i got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

This is all semantics. Are we talking about love the feeling, love the deep bond of attachment, love the decision?

What's going on with a particular WS vis a vis his or her spouse during the affair (or ONS) is going to vary from person to person. They may downright hate their spouse! They may be indifferent. But surely some of them love their spouses, whatever definition you choose.

There's a concept in psychology: cognitive dissonance. It means you hold onto two seemingly contradictory thoughts at the same time. Happens all the time. "I want to lose weight - but I'm going to eat this piece of chocolate cake." "I love my spouse - but I can't wait to have sex with 'X.'"

The kind of love that could have been present - even during sex with X - is the deep bond of attachment. Especially if the WS feels guilt over the affair. People do bad things - all the time. We have to decide on a case by case basis if there's some basic decency that overrides this transgression. I'm not particularly religious, but I like the saying: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I know this is a big sin, but my WS has done a lot of things in his life - for me, for my family, and for a number of other people - that suggest that he is at heart a good man who has mostly made the world a better place. 

My WS says he felt guilt the first time he had sex with the OW, and knew right away he'd made a mistake. He didn't stop seeing her (no brownie points there), but he lied to her to get out of seeing her as often as she wanted - the meetings WERE very few in number and spaced apart. He has some anxiety problems, including panic attacks, and I have cut him some slack because he's got "issues."

I don't doubt that he loves me now, I don't think he stopped loving me then. But he's got a lot of work to do - he was in IC before the affair and continues with that. He apologizes a lot. He answers my questions as best as he can remember (I think anxiety has fuzzed up his memory, but most of it has eventually come to him). He can't talk with me for long periods because he gets anxious, but he tries.

I think people use the word "stray" because that's what really happens in some cases. I think my WS was off his rocker for awhile; it wasn't that he stopped loving me during that time.


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## PureLove (Jan 20, 2013)

I agree with TheDeceived in that cheaters no longer love their spouse or are so self-absorbed that they are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.

There are no better people to understand what true love is than us faithful BS. Many here keep saying over and over that they would have NEVER done something so hurtful to their spouse no matter how bad the M was. THAT is love. 

Love that you can put in a box and use whenever convenient for you is not love, it's a security blanket, a safety net, a plan b, whatever you want to call it. 

Cheaters are cowards. They want it all without having to sacrifice anything. They want to explore other relationships but will not let go of the one they already have, because hey, they don't want to end up alone.

Selfish as they are, and gullible as you are, why wouldn't they take advantage of the safety and unconditional love you provide? What cheater wouldn't stay with a loving BS when faced with the scary option of venturing out on their own and risking ending up with no one. Those tears and that fear you see after dday are not for you, they are for them. It suddenly hits them that they've damaged their security blanket and might lose it for good this time.

The love given by cheaters may feel like love but IMO it's only attachment and deep caring for the person they've shared so much history with. 

Cheater love = caring, attachment, comfortable routine, friendship, sex
True love = exclusivity, respect, admiration, trust, enduring passion, true intimacy (meaning baring your soul to that person, not sharing a bed while leading a double life), deep caring and a deep understanding that this person is your best match, the only one in your heart and the only one you want to share your life with.

Anything short of that is not love IMO, it's taking advantage of someone's love while only caring for them in return.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

PureLove said:


> Cheater love = caring, attachment, comfortable routine, friendship, sex
> *True love = exclusivity, respect, admiration, trust, enduring passion, true intimacy (meaning baring your soul to that person, not sharing a bed while leading a double life), deep caring and a deep understanding that this person is your best possible match, the only one in your heart and the only one you want to share your life with.
> Anything short of that is not love IMO*, it's taking advantage of someone's love while only caring for them in return.


Are you talking about how you loved your WH or is it's how you identify every BS's love? Faithfull = True Love?
Because being betrayed doesn't mean you love your spouse this way. 
Many couples with no infidelity in the mix don't love each other this way. At All. And they both claim to love each other.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

PureLove said:


> I had decided to stop posting on TAM but I felt compelled to contribute to this thread.
> 
> I agree with TheDeceived in that cheaters don't love their spouse, likely stopped past the "in love" stage or are so self-absorbed that they are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.
> 
> ...


Again with the blanket statements that you are applying to everyone. It just does NOT work that way *sigh*

"a deep understanding that this person is your best possible match, the only one in your heart and the only one you want to share your life with." certainly doesn't apply to me. I don't believe in the 'soul mate'. There's probably a few dozen or maybe even a few hundred men out there that I would be very happy to spend the rest of my life with. I choose not to go searching for them, and I don't leave myself open to that possibility now that I've made my choice though.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

This topic is one that we are going through right now, my ws has made the comment you don't believe me when I say "I Love You".
While I do believe she loves me, I also believe that she didn't love me enough to not cheat on me and the love she has for me now after she was caught is maybe out of desperation (not wanting to lose what she has). 
One other thought to this is that maybe she has seen my sacrifice, devotion and willingness to forgive and the light did go off that there will never be another man who will love me like this and now that I f*cked this all up I must do everything to show my love for him.
It will take time for this to play out someone who is coming from desperation will eventually tire of the effort and will once again justify their actions by blaming their spouse for *their* shortcomings. 
For those that have seen the light they will work hard to match the love that they have been given.
Funny one thing I have realized is that there are no absolutes in this road I travel, there are many answers to every question and the only thing you can do is keep moving forward if you are lucky backward if you must.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

PureLove said:


> Hope1964, please don't take my posts the wrong way. I have read your story and from what I gathered, your H only had what I would qualify as a ONS (bj from a hooker) and some online action. As hurtful as that is, your H's betrayal had not gone emotional. I bet you would be agreeing with me had you had to deal with the damage of a long and very real EA/PA.


I am sorry, but I find your attitude quite condescending. Telling me that the betrayal I suffered wasn't 'real', and that my husband and I have 'settled' for each other. 

You sure know how to take only what you want to from someone's posts.

If you think you know more about my situation than I do, more power to you. :smthumbup:


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

PureLove said:


> Hope1964, please don't take my posts the wrong way. I have read your story and from what I gathered, your H only had what I would qualify as a ONS (bj from a hooker) and some online action. As hurtful as that is, your H's betrayal had not gone emotional. I bet you would be agreeing with me had you had to deal with the damage of a long and very real EA/PA.


my wife had a two year long ea/pa and i dont necessarily agree with you. not to stir the pot or anything.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I am sorry, but I find your attitude quite condescending. Telling me that the betrayal I suffered wasn't 'real', and that my husband and I have 'settled' for each other.
> 
> You sure know how to take only what you want to from someone's posts.
> 
> If you think you know more about my situation than I do, more power to you. :smthumbup:


This is why I hate equivalency rationalization arguments. You are forced to minimize a BJ and then say a two year affair is worse. 

It is all about your own personal code, which can make a EA worse than a PA and a HJ as bad as intercourse. In my book if someone says they are equal I chalk it up to their code an there is no argument from me.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Please!
> Are you actually believing you loved you Ex the way Love is described above?
> Unless you are in complete denial about yourself the answer is NO. So... you didn't love her actualy, right?
> 
> ...


This isn't about me. I'm just telling you where the finish line is. We can at least attempt the marathon or we can go grab a burger and a pitcher of brews instead. But if we do the latter, let's be honest, we didn't even attempt the marathon.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Shoshan1290 said:


> ......so they turn a switch off inside of themselves somewhere and they hunt down someone else to get that physical/emotional need met. The entire time, though, they fail to realize that in their partner they could have those needs met if only they would communicate. After reading & reading & even from personal experience I have found, though, that these are people who are so caught up in the lying and the justifying that they don't even consider the simplest solution to be feasible (that being TALK to your partner.).


I liked your entire post... This though struck a cord with me. Just turn it to learning to communicate with yourself and understanding how you call up or feel emotions....

My wife was looking hard for things to prove to herself she didn’t love me and to remove the guilt for hurting me... The activity of seeking to believe you are “unloved” became the same as her believing that she didn’t love me. She did... she just made mental efforts to argue against it whenever it cropped up.

And lol... I do the same. If I’m feeling one of those big draws toward her... my mind will pull up her adultery and lies to dissuade my emotions from going there; Effective at slamming on the brakes before... gasp.... I find myself in love with her again. 

It isn’t a switch per sea... it’s a direction you take with your thoughts to alter perceptions. Use it for good or evil


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> There are always exceptions to everything and everyone. You may be wrong in thinking you are the exception some time, but those exceptions still exist.


Yes, and they are exceptional.

On a forum where we routinely tell a BS that the signs of infidelity they report are almost certainly actual infidelity (but there could always be exceptions), I do not understand the push-back on this at all.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

I think in a broad way an affair can't happen unless feelings are sufficiently eroded. 

People do not cheat on someone they're madly in love with. Imagine back to the "hot" phase of when you met your wife or husband. Thoughts of cheating were probably the last thing on your mind. 

That doesn't mean they don't love them *at all* however. But I think it's a stretch to say you can be madly in love with someone and then reconcile that with cheating. It doesn't make sense. 

But as I said this is a broad view and in the real world there are many cases where I'm sure none of this factors in. Cheating under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or in cases where someone is vulnerable emotionally, or heck i'm sure these affairs happen often because someone feels unloved and wants to "get back" at their partner. There can be many scenerios where one feels love but has a ONS or affair anyways.

Again though, in the majority of cases it would make sense that it requires an erosion of love or caring.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I think my only issue with this is the title of the thread. It's too absolute. Too definite. The Universe just isn't like that.
> 
> How do I know Regret loved me during her affair?
> 
> ...


I'm quoting myself cuz I can.

Mostly I'm quoting myself cuz today is exactly 1 year from Dday.

If any of ya's think I'm diluted, delusional, or dumb you might wanna check the mirror. That anger and rage that you're projecting is YOURS...not mine. Not any other betrayed who is working on reconciliation.

Yes. Cheaters are cowards. Yep...no denying that cuz they couldn't handle their issues in a proper manner, but instead chose to give in to their silly ego driven affairs.

But.

Don't think everyone is incapable of love because of YOUR personal hurt. I mean even Hitler loved Eva Braum.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> The-Deceived,
> Do you sense the denial in some of these responses? This is an example of the evilness of adultery. Good people having to desperately rationalize the meaning of there cheater's behavior. Who the hell would accept some of these definitions of love before they got married. Imagine someone's spouse turning to them the night before their wedding day and saying, "I am going to cheat on you with your sister and you are going to believe I loved you."
> 
> I bet if you changed the title to your thread to "A MURDERER doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is" people would rationalize the murderer's behavior to show they loved the victim.
> ...


Sorry for your pain. However, your reality is not everyone else's.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

awake1 said:


> I think in a broad way an affair can't happen unless feelings are sufficiently eroded.
> Again though, in the majority of cases it would make sense that it requires an erosion of love or caring.


Hmmm.. can we agree that the simple pass of time, past the "madly in love" initial phase is erosion enough?
You only have to feel good, flattered to be persued or lusted, a moment of weakness and selfishness to put the ball rolling.
I higly suspects many affaris happens for silly reasons, most of them start this stupid way and then develope becasue giving up the "feel good" is hard and we are selfish criatures. Then the rationalizations began, defense mechanism help us, emotional attachments solidify...


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Let's see......a mother is supposed to love her children correct? Would you say that, by your logic, since my mother beat the Hell out of me for 8yrs, that she did not in fact love me? She has told me numerous times she loves me* BUT*, it must be a lie. If she loved me, she wouldn't have hurt me like that.....right?


Id say this. 
She didn't love you while she was beating the hell out of you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Id say this.
> She didn't love you while she was beating the hell out of you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But she does the rest of the time.

Do cheaters 'not love' their spouses when they are cheating...but do the rest of the time?

In some cases this is true. Maybe.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

I think one of the most difficult thing that one has to do is to admit and accept the fact that the one true love that we thought to have finally found was nothing but a mirage. The soulmate was just a construct of our own mind. May be it is not the same for everyone, but it is true in my case. I was in denial for a long time. Finally it was time to wake up and smell the s##t.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


I say on behalf of your wife:

I'm sorry for you, but you are totally wrong on this. Totally. 

Your (understandable) emotions are mixed up with your perception of reality. People are not limited to being in love, or loving only one person. That is a fact. 

Another fact is that one can temporally be in the Fog and think all kind of thoughts they didn't have before and won't have after.

A fact is that reality is not a black and white schema you have in your mind but is a mixture, a Bell Curve of all kinds of occurances of love, arousal, infatuation, intimacy, friendship etc. etc.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

:iagree::iagree:

Fvcking someone other than your spouse has nothing to do with the love, or lack thereof, for your spouse.

It has to do with the selfishness of the WS. 

The BS feels "betrayed" because the promise of monogamy has been broken. The trust has been shattered. 

Not every affair involves love for the OM/OW, or lack of love for the BS. It can be about sex, addiction, etc.

I haven't read the entire thread, so if somebody else has already voiced these thoughts, then my apologies. However, I'm of the opinion that OP is projecting the emotions of his personal situation onto everyone else's situation...which is an arrogant thing to do.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

ThreeStrikes said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Fvcking someone other than your spouse has nothing to do with the love, or lack thereof, for your spouse.
> 
> It has to do with the selfishness of the WS.


:iagree: 

I never stopped feeling love for my wife durring my affair. I would still do anything to help her and protect her. But anger and resentment had given me a warped sense of entitlement and led me to believe I was entiltled to do something that made me happy. It's all about rationalization. Like many WS, I felt that I was in love with two people. Obviously that was not the case, as infatuation towards the OW makes one feel as though it's real love. And deep down I knew it, but was too selfish to stop.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

BackOnTrack said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I never stopped feeling love for my wife durring my affair. I would still do anything to help her and protect her. But anger and resentment had given me a warped sense of entitlement and led me to believe I was entiltled to do something that made me happy. It's all about rationalization. Like many WS, I felt that I was in love with two people. Obviously that was not the case, as infatuation towards the OW makes one feel as though it's real love. And deep down I knew it, but was too selfish to stop.


this describes my wife, as well.
especially the "anger and resentment", that made her feel she was entitled to cheat on me.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.


Simply untrue.
Love and sex are not the same thing.
If you cheat on your spouse it's because you're selfish or unthoughtful.
You can be these things and still love your spouse.
The evidence is everywhere.



> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.


Ahh..no "true" love.
So now you get to define what love is for everyone.
Gotcha.



> My stbxww said to me in tears "I need to figure out how I could hurt someone I love so much so badly". It's not love. It can't be. She constantly still tells me how much she loves me, that she always did - she never stopped.
> 
> That is a lie.


Maybe, maybe not but you're not going to get far with your cheating=lack of love axiom.
It's simply wrong.



> No offence to anybody trying to R with their ws, but if your spouse cheats on you, they do not actually love you, and may be incapable of love. They may think they love you, but that is NOT love.


The only people incapable of love are those with certain neurological problems.
A minute percentage of the human population.
Again,
You don't get to define love for everyone else.
You don't get to tell people what they are and aren't feeling.
You're clueless concerning the situation.



> Love is many things. Respect, loyalty, honesty, protection both physically and emotionally,....


No, actually love is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your brain.
It's just "love".
Those other concepts you mention may have a bearing on it or they may not.
Love can exist with them or without them.



> ... affection...when your ws f*cks someone else during your marriage, they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are not any of the things that make up love.


So you say...I know better.



> It's proof they do not in fact love you.


I see no "proof" of anything.
I see a lot of bitterness and a definite lack of acceptance though.

Hope things turn around for you.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> That's not real love.


LMFAO!!

Thanks for that.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't think most cheaters choice to cheat has anything to do with love. For their spouse or for the OM/OW or for themselves. 

I think it does help some BS's to think about it that way, though.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

michzz said:


> Can we agree that whatever definition of love a cheater uses to allow themself to stray is emphatically not the one the betrayed spouse wants in their life?


Cheaters don't re-define "love" in order to cheat.
Generally their love or lack of it for their BS has little to nothing to do with their cheating.

There are many BS here who do want those WS in their lives.

This place is mostly about supporting that concept.


----------



## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

The-Deceived,
I tried to PM you but it stated that you do not accept PMs. FYI


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

michzz said:


> Can we agree that whatever definition of love a cheater uses to allow themself to stray is emphatically not the one the betrayed spouse wants in their life?


No. I can't agree with that.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Damn, TD got banned. Hopefully he'll be back in a week or less.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

michzz said:


> Can we agree that whatever definition of love a cheater uses to allow themself to stray is emphatically not the one the betrayed spouse wants in their life?


I can go for that.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

michzz said:


> So you like the definition of love that allows a cheater to stray?


Have you read the posts in this thread??


----------



## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

This is what I found in one forum:

Soul mates are not gift wrapped and delivered at your doorstep. 

There is also no way that you can go around searching for Soul mates because they don’t come with your name tag. 

Soul mates are just ordinary people sharing an extraordinary relationship of perfect bonding over a period of time. 

It is not important to find a soul mate but it is more important to become one. 

It’s not about feeling the magic of love in the first look but it’s about having a magical relationship that faces all tests of time and stands tall. 

Soul mates are two wonderful people who fall in love and end up having a perfect relationship by overcoming the challenges that they face together.

It’s all about living, loving, caring, sharing, bonding, enduring, growing and staying together till the end of time…..


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

It sort of depends on the sort of love we are talking about, doesn't it?

A cheater may care about you and love you like you love a sister or a brother. They may love you like the old and not-extremely-fun-to-play-with-but-passes-the-time toy they believe you are while their mind is more focused on the shinier new toy. You are plan B.

Excluding mentally unstable people(some PDs,dysfunctional neurosis and psychosis) I've never seen a WS say "I am so passionately in love with my husband/wife." in the midst of cheating. It just isn't possible. You can't give your full focus to regular things in life while you're addicted to something else. And that's what cheating creates, an addiction. Obviously it doesn't start off that way, maybe it was just meant as an innocent talk or needing a shoulder to cry on or just a passing attraction created by propinquity, but most people have absolutely zero information in the way the brain works, so it quickly becomes a slippery slope and you are unable to quit.

Now of course, this doesn't mean a cheater has never loved you or can never again love you in the proper way that you are supposed to be loved. But breaking the addiction is the first and foremost step.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Soul mates are two wonderful people who fall in love and end up having a perfect relationship by overcoming the challenges that they face together.


So they're mythical, like unicorns.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> It sort of depends on the sort of love we are talking about, doesn't it?
> 
> A cheater may care about you and love you like you love a sister or a brother. They may love you like the old and not-extremely-fun-to-play-with-but-passes-the-time toy they believe you are while their mind is more focused on the shinier new toy. You are plan B.
> 
> ...


The problem with this argument is that you can be addicted to multiple things at once. I view love as the emotions resulting from the physiology of neural chemistry. It is possible to have multiple reward circuits that respond with dopamine to multiple people. 

I know this because I have experienced it. Contrary to what you say I was passionately in love with my wife while I was embroiled in feeding an EA. I treated it by reinforcing the love for my wife while withdrawing from the OW. I was able to extinguish my love for the OW.

The discussions in this thread about love are really more about validating a coping mechanism than about understanding love. For many it makes it all nicely packaged and catogorized to assert that love never existed in the first place. if that helps then then fine but it ignores the complexity of human behavior.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

meson said:


> Contrary to what you say I was passionately in love with my wife while I was embroiled in feeding an EA.


Well, I really don't think this is the norm. I also think you are confusing attraction(dopamine-which resembles cocaine addiction) with pairbond(oxytocin-which resembles morphine addiction). But even if you're not...\/

The thing with being addicted to multiple things of the same category is the one which generates higher dopamine wins out eventually. Because the pathway gradually gets desensitized ,the stimulation that can create action potential ,despite lowered receptor sensitivity and count, becomes the only addiction standing(Hunger Games,chemical style.). Usually, the affair(which resembles cocaine addiction and generates a higher dopamine recharge) wins if it isn't stopped(either by external consequences or internal conscience) until it's too late.

I don't know about multiple things of different category though.

Edit: Also, the desensitization is what causes the ILYBINILWY speech in affairs. You can't generate enough dopamine to keep attraction alive while there is a huge batch of it running down his/her synapses due to the affair.


----------



## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

I've read through this entire thread because I ask myself this question repeatedly: can someone deeply love a partner and still betray and hurt him/her so thoroughly?

Both sides have made valid points. On the one hand, generalizations are just that - unable to cover all cases. I have no doubt that _many_ WS have loved their partners while hurting them.

On the other hand, I think there are many cases where the depth of love really does deserve to be questioned. How can we know that cheaters deeply love the cheatee while they carry on selfishly?

I think one reason I (and perhaps many including the original poster, PureLove, and Labcoat) may struggle to grant that the WS truly loved the BS has as much to do with our own depth of love for our partners. I've quoted PureLove's post below because it really struck me as having a certain validity in some cases.

In my case:

At least until the betrayal, I could never imagine cheating on my WS - no matter if I knew he would never know. I adored him dearly. I really had a deep love for him. I hated to see him hurt in anyway. (Now that love is ... so sadly... diminished on my end...and the adoration no longer) I couldn't (and can't) fathom bringing that pain upon the one I love the most.

So, if I feel this for him... Why doesn't he feel that for me? Do I love him for than he loves me? Maybe he still loves and loved me, but I can't help but feel that my love for him was deeper than his for mine. 

In any case, this is a worthy debate - no matter that it's a sensitive topic. There's a reason why this question hurts so much.


PureLove said:


> I agree with TheDeceived in that cheaters no longer love their spouse or are so self-absorbed that they are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.
> 
> There are no better people to understand what true love is than us faithful BS. Many here keep saying over and over that they would have NEVER done something so hurtful to their spouse no matter how bad the M was. THAT is love.
> 
> ...


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> Can someone deeply love a partner and still betray and hurt him/her so thoroughly?


They betray themselves too. Does that mean they don't deeply love themselves?


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you can love someone before and after the affair, but while in the affair-NO WAY. And I think using the parental example is weak, because usually if they hit you, it's because you acted out. They are teaching you boundaries. But what are you teaching a spouse that has loved and made sacrifices for you, by cheating on them? You are teaching them you don't love them. Maybe you did before, and maybe you will now if they show you mercy, a mercy you don't deserve, but it is silly to argue they love you while they cheat. And I do not believe in the fog.


----------



## meson (May 19, 2011)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Well, I really don't think this is the norm. I also think you are confusing attraction(dopamine-which resembles cocaine addiction) with pairbond(oxytocin-which resembles morphine addiction). But even if you're not...\/
> 
> The thing with being addicted to multiple things of the same category is the one which generates higher dopamine wins out eventually. Because the pathway gradually gets desensitized ,the stimulation that can create action potential ,despite lowered receptor sensitivity and count, becomes the only addiction standing(Hunger Games,chemical style.). Usually, the affair(which resembles cocaine addiction and generates a higher dopamine recharge) wins if it isn't stopped(either by external consequences or internal conscience) until it's too late.
> 
> ...


You absolutely right, it is not the norm but it is not unusual either. Sigma and Entropy also had EAs and describe the effects of addition just like the way I experienced. We each experienced it to varying degrees but it was nevertheless similar. The other thing we had in common was that they loved their wives and were able to pull out.

The majority of cases though are ones where the wayward spouse really has no feelings left anymore and cheats as a result or for other reasons. TD is probably an example of this case so I get the anger and frustration. But not every case is like that.

What you say about the addiction is correct eventually one wins out. The successful reconciliations are the ones where somehow the competition was recognized and halted. This is why this topic causes so much contention on TAM in the first place. Love for the spouse is required for any type of reconciliation that is true and lasts. I think this is why Hope and MattMatt post on these regularly because they understand it as I do though our stories are very different.

So yes, many cheaters don’t love you and never will. But not all.

In my case I had both components of infatuation and long term love. I had known the OW for years and had the feeling of belonging and comfort around her as well as the giddy dopamine induced excitement. For me that long term bonding probably helped me feel that I had to stop escalating the dopamine side because it was not in her best interest in addition to mine. 

Now I turn this around and use it as a litmus test for reconciliation. If the wayward demonstrates love then perhaps there can be reconciliation (in addition to the slew of other requirements). For someone like Eric in another thread I don’t think there can because it doesn’t look like his wife really loves him.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

> And I think using the parental example is weak, because usually if they hit you, it's because you acted out. They are teaching you boundaries.


Just to clarify, when I said my mother beat the Hell out of me, I did not mean "normal" discipline. I was talking about things like, cigarette burns, cracked ribs, concussion, black eyes, etc. Whether I "acted out" or not, I did not nor does any child deserve that type of punishment. 

Threadjack over......my apologies.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry you went through that. I did too.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

illwill said:


> I think you can love someone before and after the affair, but while in the affair-NO WAY. And I think using the parental example is weak, because usually if they hit you, it's because you acted out. They are teaching you boundaries. But what are you teaching a spouse that has loved and made sacrifices for you, by cheating on them? You are teaching them you don't love them. Maybe you did before, and maybe you will now if they show you mercy, a mercy you don't deserve, but it is silly to argue they love you while they cheat. And I do not believe in the fog.


Hmmm...you're saying my wife didn't love me for 5 years?

Interesting. Prove that to me.


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## GottaKnow (Jan 19, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Dig, no disrespect but I don't have to prove it, because she already did. Also, can you love someone you don't respect? Because bringing a man into my house, where my kids sleep, sex with no protection, and giving him my food to eat, is not respect. And if you think it is, then fine. We simply see things differently.We will have to agree to disagree. And again, I don't believe in the fog, and even if I did, it would not last 5 years. At a certain point, you become defined by your habitual actions.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

It sucks to be hurt. That I know. However thrusting viewpoints on everyone who has undergone similar situations is futile. Every one is different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I do not agree with you at all. I just posted this in another thread:
> 
> There are some who wake up after D day and think "OH ****!!" and realize what they're about to lose and really DO do everything in their power to fix it. They never really stopped caring, they put that care and their spouse into a box and segregated them in their brain in order to cheat. They live a double life. I am trying to think of an analogy here. It's kind of like having something you don't want to get wet so you stick it into a watertight box so that when you jump into the ocean, it's still in there, dry, but you are soaking wet along with the rest of your world. Every once in a while you climb out of the ocean with your watertight box, dry off, open up the box and let your spouse out, thinking that you are NEVER going to jump into that ocean EVER again because wtf are you doing. Till the next time you hear that siren call and off you go again with your watertight box in tow.
> 
> Anyway my point is that there really are WS's who DON'T stop caring. Maybe those are the ones who do end up as a TRWS


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm deadset sick of hearing about the boxes cheating spouses put things in when they are having their affair. Personally I think this is bull**** and a cop out. Just like the old "I loved you but I wasn't in love with you" line. Here's a solution, if you are so weak that you think you need to have an affair, don't ruin everyone else's life, tell your partner that things aren't working and either work it out or leave them.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Is this thread STILL alive? Speaking of boxes...can someone bury this thing?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmm...you're saying my wife didn't love me for 5 years?
> 
> Interesting. Prove that to me.


She had an affair ?

She bad mouthed you to her family.

She kept lying to you through this time, blamed you for everything wrong in the marriage ?

Maybe the whole thing depends on how you define love...Might be different for everyone..

You can even argue that if she loved you during the affair, there is nothing wrong in having one yourself. After all, you are taking nothing away from her


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> She had an affair ?
> 
> She bad mouthed you to her family.
> 
> ...


Really? We're gonna start this up again?

LMFAO.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

nah.. I was just about regretting for posting that


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Sometimes they still live you, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they understand what love is, sometimes they don't. It is clear as day by these posts. What could there be to argue??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

this thread is becoming a roach motel, you can come in but you don't get out (aka banned)


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

He was banned for the posts in this thread ? I hope the mods reconsider. Perma bans should be for trouble makers. Not for someone like Dig


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Hope you reconsider. Dig is a valued member of the forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatgirll007 (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm sorry people were banned in the hashing out of issues in this thread. I hope they get to come back, too.

As for the topic - I'll throw in my two cents.

My exH loved me. He still does. He just had no clue how to honor that love. And even though I still love him, I have no faith in his ability to honor love. Which is why we are divorced.

Unfortunately, it is entirely possible to love someone and cheat on them, as scary and gray as that is.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> He was banned for the posts in this thread ? I hope the mods reconsider. Perma bans should be for trouble makers. Not for someone like Dig


I stand corrected, it was another thread


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Well, it seems I'm unbanned. To Annie - I apologize. That was an angry day, and yes, it was uncalled for. I'm sorry.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

PureLove said:


> I agree with TheDeceived in that cheaters no longer love their spouse or are so self-absorbed that they are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.
> 
> There are no better people to understand what true love is than us faithful BS. Many here keep saying over and over that they would have NEVER done something so hurtful to their spouse no matter how bad the M was. THAT is love.
> 
> ...



You absolutely nailed it here.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> I'm quoting myself cuz I can.
> 
> Mostly I'm quoting myself cuz today is exactly 1 year from Dday.
> 
> ...


Re-read the title.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry for your pain. However, your reality is not everyone else's.


I don't think that was implied at all...


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I say on behalf of your wife:
> 
> I'm sorry for you, but you are totally wrong on this. Totally.
> 
> ...


Rationalization.

Also, the fog is nothing but a cop out. It's total bunk.

It's thrown around like it's some accepted medical condition or something. You know what the "fog" is? It's selfishness and a lack of pure love for one's spouse. Or'"The Fog" for short.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

BackOnTrack said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I never stopped feeling love for my wife durring my affair. I would still do anything to help her and protect her. But anger and resentment had given me a warped sense of entitlement and led me to believe I was entiltled to do something that made me happy. It's all about rationalization. Like many WS, I felt that I was in love with two people. Obviously that was not the case, as infatuation towards the OW makes one feel as though it's real love. And deep down I knew it, but was too selfish to stop.


Your love was not pure. That's not real love. You're fooling yourself, but not me.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

michzz said:


> The thing is, for me, I can't be boxed up like a shiny present to be trotted out when she feels like admiring it. I can see how some WSes do this, but it is not an indication of true affection. More like narcissistic supply.


:iagree:


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Simply untrue.
> Love and sex are not the same thing.
> If you cheat on your spouse it's because you're selfish or unthoughtful.
> You can be these things and still love your spouse.
> ...


"I know better".

No, you don't.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

michzz said:


> Can we agree that whatever definition of love a cheater uses to allow themself to stray is emphatically not the one the betrayed spouse wants in their life?


YES!


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

staystrong said:


> They betray themselves too. Does that mean they don't deeply love themselves?


Not necessarily. But it can.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmm...you're saying my wife didn't love me for 5 years?
> 
> Interesting. Prove that to me.


She already did, by betraying you ultimately.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Lmodel said:


> I'm deadset sick of hearing about the boxes cheating spouses put things in when they are having their affair. Personally I think this is bull**** and a cop out. Just like the old "I loved you but I wasn't in love with you" line. Here's a solution, if you are so weak that you think you need to have an affair, don't ruin everyone else's life, tell your partner that things aren't working and either work it out or leave them.


But they want their cake and to eat it too.

Again, if you truly love someone, how can you intentionally destroy them? YOU CAN'T. That is the death of love, if it was ever there in the first place.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Is this thread STILL alive? Speaking of boxes...can someone bury this thing?


Embrace your guilt. It's not going away...


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> You can even argue that if she loved you during the affair, there is nothing wrong in having one yourself. After all, you are taking nothing away from her


Nail on the head.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I will make an amendment: while I don't believe it's possible a ws truly loves their bs DURING an affair, I believe it's possible they loved them before, and can love them afterwards. But I believe that love is dead during the betrayal. Can it be resurrected? Apparently so. And if so, all the power to you and yours.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I will make an amendment: while I don't believe it's possible a ws truly loves their bs DURING an affair, I believe it's possible they loved them before, and can love them afterwards. But I believe that love is dead during the betrayal. Can it be resurrected? Apparently so. And if so, all the power to you and yours.


I don't believe it as a general occurrence but it's exactly what happened in my case.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

TD,

Your time off of TAM had me worried. I had to laugh at the shotgun replies today!

Bottom line for me, I prefer the kind of love that doesn't betray. My standard for those I love also includes* no betrayal.*
For those wanting to find the little exceptions, sure, nobody is perfect all of the time, however, my boundry says no cheating; by me or by her.

Love is as love does. Lol! Just ask Forrest Gump about that one.

My next Heineken will be dedicated to your quest for a better wife. Cheers!


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I will make an amendment: while I don't believe it's possible a ws truly loves their bs DURING an affair, I believe it's possible they loved them before, and can love them afterwards. But I believe that love is dead during the betrayal. Can it be resurrected? Apparently so. And if so, all the power to you and yours.



If resurrected, the "love" is never as pure or innocent or as trustworthy as before.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> TD,
> 
> Your time off of TAM had me worried. I had to laugh at the shotgun replies today!
> 
> ...


Right on brother. Got myself a little ban there. Sorry for the shotgun action. Mmmmm Heineken.

And your bottom line is the same as mine.


----------



## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

My $.02 says the cheater doesn't really know what true love is or what a commitment is about. Biggest problem with being a BS is after all the drama you are left feeling angry and bitter. I know that these two emotions have started eating at my soul. So while the WS gets to go forward learning what love is the BS gets to eat crow and always wonder if they were really loved in the first place.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is*



The-Deceived said:


> I was talking with a few people about this. If you really, actually love your spouse, you would not betray them by committing adultery.
> 
> If you stab your spouse in the heart like that - you DO NOT love them. And if you think you do, you don't have a grasp of what love actually is.
> 
> ...


Sue Johnson states that in relationships we are constantly in a state of connection and disconnection. 

When we let the disconnection get out of control and constantly turn away, instead of toward our partners, this is what affairs thrive upon. Then the fog begins and it takes on its own life and rewrites history like a virus spreads.

The theory of love you propound is so black and white, but I see only gray.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> The Deceived
> I will make an amendment: while I don't believe it's possible a ws truly loves their bs DURING an affair, I believe it's possible they loved them before, and can love them afterwards. But I believe that love is dead during the betrayal. Can it be resurrected? Apparently so. And if so, all the power to you and yours.


I can agree with the above 100% by just adding a few words

while I don't believe it's possible a ws truly loves their bs with *PURE love *DURING an affair.


I also believe that that an affair severely damages weak love. I do believe that you can have weak love and get into an affair. I don’t think that the love is dead in some cases during the betrayal. Instead I would say the love is *perverted *and way off balance for some cheaters.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm so very surprised at the number of people arguing that the cheater did in fact love the bs while they were cheating.

I'm shocked even.

If you truly love your partner you will not cheat on them, for when you love someone you will always choose to protect then from hurt and betrayal. You will not choose to betray them. Ever.


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

People want to say it's complex. It's not. Cheaters see infidelity as gray, that is what allows them to cheat. I see it as black and white, that's why I do not cheat. If you were to look at the old Doc Cool site you would have seen the same excuses that some lean on here. I say if you stay you better not believe in the fog and other excuses. It allows you to enable the same attitude which led to the affair in the first place. Take a hard look at who they are.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

Don't know if you were referring to my post but I was stating what is and is not love is subjective. 

Cheating, however, I would be comfortable labeling as the anti-love.


----------



## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I'm so very surprised at the number of people arguing that the cheater did in fact love the bs while they were cheating.
> 
> I'm shocked even.
> 
> If you truly love your partner you will not cheat on them, for when you love someone you will always choose to protect then from hurt and betrayal. You will not choose to betray them. Ever.


Well I'm surprised at the number of people who don't get what some of us are arguing. No one is saying that cheaters love their bs while they are cheating. Some of us are saying that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. 

You can not know how every single person feels, or in this case every single cheater, until you have walked in every single cheater's shoes. Even if the majority don't love their spouses, that small minority that do, and stories from some of these posters prove this, the OP is wrong. 

Citing examples from a "cheater website" isn't a very good test sample. 

This argument is obviously futile. Those who can ever think they know how every person should act or feel are incapable of seeing the truth. That was proven by this thread....as well as a cheater is capable of loving you while cheating and/or knows what love is. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

You can love your spouse all you want, but unless that love manifest itself into action it's worthless. You are judged by your actions, not by how you feel or think. How you feel only matters if it informs your actions. Also the Dr. Cool reference is valid because the excuses cheaters use are the same ones many BS use as to why their spouse cheated- like the fog, or not spending enough quality time-instead of accepting they did nothing to deserve affair. Take away the excuses and you are left with the fact that they simply did it because they did not care enough to not hurt their spouse, which is not my definition of love. 

And the stories on here are not a good examples, because who wrote them? A BS that needs to believe their wayward never stop loving them, so they can now move into R? Or the wayward themselves, who clearly won''t admit they did not love their spouse, especially if they are R. Because admitting that would mean you are likely going with Plan B, because the affair blew up.

I also think many people have a false view of what love is. It gets confused with a lot of other things.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is*



illwill said:


> Take away the excuses and you are left with the fact that they simply did it because they did not care enough to not hurt their spouse, which is not my definition of love.
> 
> I also think many people have a false view of what love is. It gets confused with a lot of other things.


The rub is that you think there is one definition of love, and that it means love for another trumps live for self. 

I'm not specifically disagreeing with your opinion, but it's only one opinion. Just like humor, what is funny to one is in poor taste to another.

Some people who wound up in affairs did so because of poor choices. They were trying to find some happiness in life, some outlet for their frustrations. Wrong? Hell yes, but they are human and made mistakes any person could make, albeit for some it would have to be on a really bad day.

People can get to such a bad state they do these things. When they come out of that mindset and see what they caused it could be compared to the temporary insanity a soldier may experience on the field of battle.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I'm so very surprised at the number of people arguing that the cheater did in fact love the bs while they were cheating.
> 
> I'm shocked even.
> 
> If you truly love your partner you will not cheat on them, for when you love someone you will always choose to protect then from hurt and betrayal. You will not choose to betray them. Ever.


This is what I believe, and what I practiced in life.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

illwill said:


> People want to say it's complex. It's not. Cheaters see infidelity as gray, that is what allows them to cheat. I see it as black and white, that's why I do not cheat. If you were to look at the old Doc Cool site you would have seen the same excuses that some lean on here. I say if you stay you better not believe in the fog and other excuses. It allows you to enable the same attitude which led to the affair in the first place. Take a hard look at who they are.


Precisely!


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> Well I'm surprised at the number of people who don't get what some of us are arguing. No one is saying that cheaters love their bs while they are cheating. Some of us are saying that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
> 
> You can not know how every single person feels, or in this case every single cheater, until you have walked in every single cheater's shoes. Even if the majority don't love their spouses, that small minority that do, and stories from some of these posters prove this, the OP is wrong.
> 
> ...


This is denial.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

frozen said:


> The rub is that you think there is one definition of love, and that it means love for another trumps live for self.
> 
> I'm not specifically disagreeing with your opinion, but it's only one opinion. Just like humor, what is funny to one is in poor taste to another.
> 
> ...


I don't buy this. The last part...that's a cop out. The "fog". "Could be compared...". But shouldn't. 

Cheating is a selfish, unloving, cruel...even vicious thing to do. You don't do those things to someone you love. You do those things to someone you think very lowly of.

Actions. How you treat someone, how you are to that person...that defines love or lack thereof. Not some bullsh!t ideology.


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## TheQueen (Dec 7, 2012)

There's liking someone, loving someone and being in-love with them. I think that it's possible that a WS loves (or a semblance of it) their BS and maybe even still likes them *during* an affair but be in-love with them? IMHO that's really, extremely hard to believe. If you've ever been in love you know the feelings, emotions and actions you portray that ensues as a consequence of being in-love. The very last thing on your mind is hurting and betraying them in the worst possible way.

When everything comes to ahead, however that happens, the love that they have for their spouse and/or children including the history and memories incurred over years of being together/ a family unit could override the in-love feelings/feelings of infatuation they have for the Affair Partner. IMHO that is the differentiating element in each situation in which decisions are taken to be remorseful, to repair, for reconciliation, divorce etc. 

Now after the affair, if a WS is truly remorseful and wants R, are they in-love with their BS again? That's certainly possible. We wouldn't know if it's straight away or if it returns with time. We would't know if it's done primarily so as to not break up the family. We wouldn't if it's primarily for financial reasons. If it's because they really love their spouse according to their definition/perception of love; we wouldn't know if that type of love is the same as before, more than before or less.

You don't truly know do you? In having the affair they have lied and done things you wouldn't in a million years imagine they'd do to you- so there's an element of doubt somewhere in the pureness and motives of the decisions concerning the relationship, marriage, family etc that they take thereafter.

Thus to believe that they loved and were in-love with you purely and strongly in the same manner, just before, during or after the the affair (it could be more, it could be less, whatever, but IMHO it's different somehow) is pretty naive I think. But then again, like I said, it's circumstantial.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

frozen said:


> The rub is that you think there is one definition of love, and that it means love for another trumps live for self.
> 
> I'm not specifically disagreeing with your opinion, but it's only one opinion. Just like humor, what is funny to one is in poor taste to another.
> 
> ...


You don not wind up in affairs, as if you stepped in something on the sidewalk...OOOPS. No excuses. No fog. And by the way your last post does sound like something from Doc Cool. 

Too many people have the same issues, but don't cheat. I don't buy anything that allows a cheater any sort of bs excuse. I clearly have less tolerance then you, and that's fine. I am a harsh realist. Although I do agree there are different definitions of love, but your definition is unacceptable to me. And that's fine too. I respect your views.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is*



illwill said:


> You don not wind up in affairs, as if you stepped in something on the sidewalk...OOOPS. No excuses. No fog. And by the way your last post does sound like something from Doc Cool.
> 
> Too many people have the same issues, but don't cheat. I don't buy anything that allows a cheater any sort of bs excuse. I clearly have less tolerance then you, and that's fine. I am a harsh realist. Although I do agree there are different definitions of love, but your definition is unacceptable to me. And that's fine too. I respect your views.


I'm not providing excuses, whatsoever. But I believe that no matter the definition of true love you use, any person can go from being in love, to cheating. 

None is fully immune, but poor choices can be an impetus towards cheating. Deny that a person in love could ever cheat at your peril.

I wouldn't know about the ******* site. TAM stories trigger me terribly as it is I'd have to be a sadist to read *******.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

TD, what's the real purpose of this thread? I've read more than 200 posts now and still haven't figured it out.

I thought it could be an interesting topic to discuss, especially if fWS participated, to learn more about what was going on in their minds love-wise.

But I'm not quite sure what your intention is. Your machinegun replies suggest that you're either trying to:

* teach us all the one and only definition of true love
* patronize those with different views than your own
* just vent

Because IMO it seems that you're not interested in other perspectives if they don't support your own conclusion. I would like to suggest some things from my own story, but I guess that I'm going to be called dillusional, in denial or that I'm just not understanding anything about anything, if I choose to share. So what's the purpose, if you don't mind me asking?


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Originally Posted by frozen 
"The rub is that you think there is one definition of love..." - yes, LOVE = Santa Claus...nice man but he does not exist...love seems to be an "ether" that people need to cling to...

Seriously, it all reality can anyone prove the existence of love?


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is*



cj9947 said:


> Originally Posted by frozen
> "The rub is that you think there is one definition of love..." - yes, LOVE = Santa Claus...nice man but he does not exist...love seems to be an "ether" that people need to cling to...
> 
> Seriously, it all reality can anyone prove the existence of love?


I can. Love = Orgasm. See how both sides of the equation balance. :beer:


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

If i ignore a cheater can still love what will happen? Ill leave a cheater? Already did that with no regrets. I believed it and divorced my wife and found a better woman. Last thing ill say is what you feel and think cannot be proved unless there is action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

frozen said:


> I'm not providing excuses, whatsoever. But I believe that no matter the definition of true love you use, any person can go from being in love, to cheating.
> 
> None is fully immune, but poor choices can be an impetus towards cheating. Deny that a person in love could ever cheat at your peril.
> 
> I wouldn't know about the ******* site. TAM stories trigger me terribly as it is I'd have to be a sadist to read *******.


People who don't cheat are fully immune. Like me.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

cpacan said:


> So what's the purpose, if you don't mind me asking?


To express what I believe, and get an interesting if intense conversation going. 

The "machine gun" posts happened because I was banned for a week, and I replied as I read once unbanned. 

Believe whatever you want to believe. I don't feel it necessary to qualify everything I type with "imo". That's implied...we're all adults here. I think we're all smart enough to know that.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> People who don't cheat are fully immune. Like me.


this would assume that cheating is the only way to hurt one that you love.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, you can love two people at the same time. Just not using your definition. 


Can you be committed to more than one person at a time? Ask yourself what you would do if both parties had an emergency at the same time. The one you would go to second is not being truly loved.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I'm so very surprised at the number of people arguing that the cheater did in fact love the bs while they were cheating.
> 
> I'm shocked even.
> 
> If you truly love your partner you will not cheat on them, for when you love someone you will always choose to protect then from hurt and betrayal. You will not choose to betray them. Ever.


Shocked is a good word for it. It's an abusive thing to do. When a woman says something like "he beats me, but he loves me," we get all in her face about it. But here we are being asked to refrain from judgement and accept that NACALT (not all cheaters are like that). Couldn't the same be said of the beaters?


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, you can love two people at the same time. Just not using your definition.
> 
> 
> Can you be committed to more than one person at a time? Ask yourself what you would do if both parties had an emergency at the same time. The one you would go to second is not being truly loved.


I love you. :allhail:


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

To people who are going "how can you think you know what's going inside every person's head?" etc. 

Guess what? We can. Thanks to neuroscience, we now know love, whether it's short-term infatuation or long-term bonding, is a specific chemical reaction in the brain, nothing more. It isn't something divine like some make it out to be. We also know what affairs cause. So saying "everybody's understanding of love is different" while very heart-warming and reassuring, is kinda wrong.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: A cheater doesn't love you, or doesn't understand what love is*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> To people who are going "how can you think you know what's going inside every person's head?" etc.
> 
> Guess what? We can. Thanks to neuroscience, we now know love, whether it's short-term infatuation or long-term bonding, is a specific chemical reaction in the brain, nothing more. It isn't something divine like some make it out to be. We also know what affairs cause. So saying "everybody's understanding of love is different" while very heart-warming and reassuring, is kinda wrong.


People here are arguing what love means to them through action, not chemical reaction.

Shadow_Nirvana, just because we all have the same hormones does not mean we feel or respond to them exactly the same. 

By your definition one could argue cheaters don't have the same chemical responses that non cheaters do. That's ridiculous. Some people like pain in their sex and others don't. Are those the same chemical at work? 

It's precisely because we share the same chemicals we all have some vulnerability to infidelity, no matter the strength of our values. Reinforcing and working on the connections we maintain with our partner is the best thing we can do to build loving bonds, and those would fail eventually if neglected.

No matter how much in love you think you are or immune for that matter.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

frozen said:


> It's precisely because we share the same chemicals we all have some vulnerability to infidelity, no matter the strength of our values.


Rubbish. I never cheated and never would have. Cheaters cheat. Not everyone is a cheater. Fact.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

So, what's your opinion on revenge affairs? Does that mean that the original BS didn't actually love their WS? I mean, by your definition obviously the BS didn't. Or, are revenge affairs excusable since the original WS is apparently unable to love, they cannot be hurt by a RA?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

frozen said:


> People here are arguing what love means to them through action, not chemical reaction.
> 
> Shadow_Nirvana, just because we all have the same hormones does not mean we feel or respond to them exactly the same.
> 
> ...


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

And btw, of course there are differences in brain chemistry. Some people are able to snort cocaine once in a while, other become raging drug addicts. But it doesn't change the fact that both get an extreme high and pleasure from doing it. So reactions are of the same category, it's the intensity that changes.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> So, what's your opinion on revenge affairs? Does that mean that the original BS didn't actually love their WS? I mean, by your definition obviously the BS didn't. Or, are revenge affairs excusable since the original WS is apparently unable to love, they cannot be hurt by a RA?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll put it to you this way: Eventually after D-Day and the HB I began seeing my fiance as dumpy, desperate and self-absorbed. Dozens of other women around me suddenly appeared so much more beautiful than her. I was falling out of love with her, quickly. It only took me a hot minute after moving out to start seeing new women.

Any "revenge affair" to be had wouldn't have been under any delusions of winning her back or even caring about her.

If my xWF has realized that I've moved on, I'm sure it hurts her... but only because she feels sorry for herself.

EDIT... I'm using weasel words here. I did end up hooking up with a woman at a bar prior to moving out. I guess that's a revenge affair--or something--either way it was ignoble of me. But I was so totally done with my fiance at that point, I didn't have any love left for her and I won't pretend otherwise.

When I told her she flipped, but said she wasn't made that I did it, but rather that it signaled that she was about to become a single 30-something who had cheated on her fiance.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I'm so very surprised at the number of people arguing that the cheater did in fact love the bs while they were cheating.
> 
> I'm shocked even.
> 
> If you truly love your partner you will not cheat on them, for when you love someone you will always choose to protect then from hurt and betrayal. You will not choose to betray them. Ever.


It's clear that we have differing views on love. By the one you subscribe to any time a spouse is hurt by definition you didn't love them. This then results in every marriage have periods where the spouses dont love each other according to every hurt they recieve. By this reasoning there will always be times when your spouse doesn't love you. I can't imagine a marriage that doesn't at time result in hurt so every marriage must be flawed because the spouses don't perfectly love each other. 

I would rather believe in an imperfect human emotion that persists than a light bulb version of love that turns off at a moment of hurt.


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## ggj (Mar 17, 2013)

What is dday?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Here you have the most used acronims.
Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

meson said:


> It's clear that we have differing views on love. By the one you subscribe to any time a spouse is hurt by definition you didn't love them. This then results in every marriage have periods where the spouses dont love each other according to every hurt they recieve. By this reasoning there will always be times when your spouse doesn't love you. I can't imagine a marriage that doesn't at time result in hurt so every marriage must be flawed because the spouses don't perfectly love each other.
> 
> I would rather believe in an imperfect human emotion that persists than a light bulb version of love that turns off at a moment of hurt.


Nobody said that. We are not talking about "hurt" in a general sense. We are talking specifically about the vile betrayal of infidelity.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Deceived:

I don't know your entire story, but I can say that I did still love my wife while I cheated. 

The affair was not about love. It was about excitement, ego-strokes, a distraction, something different. 

I regret it, my wife divorced me, I know I screwed up, I want her back but will understand if she can not take me back. 

I don't see my self cheating ever again. The thought makes me physically ill.


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