# Crazymakers



## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Julia Cameron is a writer who tries to help creative people get unstuck — and years ago, she came up with a list of qualities for identifying “crazymakers,” toxic people who bring you down, sap your life energy and keep you from being your best.

She wasn’t talking about adulterers per se but the list certainly applies. And I believe she would certainly herself put infidels into this category of personality. 

Here’s the list below.

Ask yourself, in light of your WS’s affair, as well as the toxic behavior and lack of empathy most of us witnessed both during and after the affair, whether your WS meets many of these descriptions.

If they do, then you’re dealing with a crazymaker, full stop. Cameron’s advice is to essentially hard 180, grey rock and otherwise distance crazymakers from your life: 

“1. Crazymakers break deals and destroy schedules. They show up hours late for an appointment (if at all) and expect to be waited on hand and foot. They invite you out for lunch, order the most expensive thing on the menu and then expect you to foot the bill.

2. Crazymakers expect special treatment. They suffer a wide panoply of mysterious ailments that require care and attention whenever you have a deadline looming. The Crazymaker cooks her own special meal in a house full of hungry children – and does nothing to feed the kids. In fact, they care little for anyone else outside of themselves.

3. Crazymakers discount your reality. No matter how important your deadline or how critical your work trajectory at the moment, Crazymakers will violate your needs. Crazymakers are the people who call you at midnight or 6:00 am saying, “I know you asked me not to call you at this time, but…” or “I know you’re on a deadline” they say, “but this will only take a minute.” YOUR minute.

4. Crazymakers spend your time and money. If they borrow your car, they return it late with an empty tank. Their travel arrangements always cost you time and money. They demand to be met in the middle of your workday at an airport miles from town saying, “I didn’t bring money for a taxi”.

5. Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with. Because Crazymakers thrive on energy (your energy), they set people against one another in order to maintain their own position of power. From this position, they can feed most directly on the negative energies they stir up.

6. Crazymakers are expert blamers. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault.

7. Crazymakers create dramas-but seldom where they belong. They are often blocked creatives themselves. Witnessing others express their creativity makes them feel jealous and threatened. It makes them even more dramatic- at your expense. Devoted to their own agendas, Crazymakers impose this agenda on others. In other words, whatever matters to you becomes trivialized into a mere backdrop for the crazymakers’s personal plight.

8. Crazymakers hate schedules- except their own. In the hands of a Crazymaker, time is a primary tool for abuse. If you claim a certain block of time as your own, your crazymaker will find a way to fight you for that time, to mysteriously need things (meaning you) just when you need time alone to focus on the task at hand.

9. Crazymakers hate order. Chaos serves their purposes. When you begin to establish a space that serves you and your creativity, your Crazymaker will abruptly invade that space with their mess.

10. Crazymakers deny that they are Crazymakers. They will always try to convince you that YOU are the one that’s crazy.

11. Crazymakers drive you Crazy. (My #1. Rule is If it doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. If someone in your life is making you crazy run far away and fast…)”

Seems pretty straightforward right? 

Food for thought.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I take your meaning, and agree, but an infidel is a person who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one's own.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

So crazy people do crazy things, cool. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. What does this have to do with infidelity? Any one of those "traits" would be a dealbreaker, infidelity or not.

And as said above, check the definition of an infidel.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Infidel is a word used all the time in the context of infidelity.

as for the list it’s a great framing tools for betrayed spouses to think about their cheating spouses. It puts their behavior in a specific light and see through the games.

but if you doesn’t work for you, that’s fine too


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Infidel is also used in the context text of unfaithfulness, which is where the use of the word “infidelity” came into use to describe adultery. In other words, not having fidelity to the monogamous pair bond. one of the definitions of “infidel” is “manifesting unbelief” that is to say carrying out actions that are unfaithful. So I have no problem using the word infidel in the context of adultery and in fact it gets used all the time including in voluminous therapeutic literature on the subject


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

bobert said:


> crazy people do crazy things, cool. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. What does this have to do with infidelity? Any one of those "traits" would be a dealbreaker, infidelity or not.


It also puts adultery into the context of other dysfunctional behavior that should not be tolerated in relationships. So often adultery gets set out in a privileged place when really it’s no different from other crazy making dysfunctional behavior society finds worthy of divorce.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Thumos said:


> It also puts adultery into the context of other dysfunctional behavior that should not be tolerated in relationships. So often adultery gets set out in a privileged place when really it’s no different from other crazy making dysfunctional behavior society finds worthy of divorce.


Any dysfunctional or crazy behavior, infidelity or otherwise, should be a dealbreaker if the person is unwilling to improve.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

bobert said:


> Any dysfunctional or crazy behavior, infidelity or otherwise, should be a dealbreaker if the person is unwilling to improve.


Which was the point of the post. However adultery in our current day is given a special place and not really called out for what it is


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Thumos said:


> Which was the point of the post. However adultery in our current day is given a special place and not really called out for what it is


So you think adultery is comparable to someone exhibiting the above behaviors?


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

I think adultery incorporates the above behaviors and more — and so do adulterers after the adultery has been discovered


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Thumos said:


> I think adultery incorporates the above behaviors and more — and so do adulterers after the adultery has been discovered


Sometimes, sure, but not all the time. There isn't a single thing on that list that my WS did/does. 

I think you're projecting. How many of those things did/does _your _WS do?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think a list like this comes in handy when one spouse is in a somewhat abusive situation (whether that's adultery or verbal abuse, emotional/mental abuse) and they've been gaslit into believing "it's all in their head." Trust me, I've been in that position, and part of you knows they're nuts and the other part of you second-guesses yourself! So with a list like this, if you can read down the list and say "Oh my god, my spouse does this to me...and this too...and this TOO!" then it is validation.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

bobert said:


> I think you're projecting


What a ridiculous thing to say without any proof whatsoever.

Yes, she has done a lot of them.

just with the affair itself she did most of them


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Thumos said:


> What a ridiculous thing to say without any proof whatsoever.
> 
> Yes, she has done a lot of them.
> 
> just with the affair itself she did most of them


The evidence is all over TAM since the second you got here.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

bobert said:


> The evidence is all over TAM since the second you got here.


That’s a nice line but doesn’t make any sense. Be more specific. Be more clear. How am I projecting. Projecting is about oneself. Are you saying I’m secretly a crazy maker? Or are you saying my WW is a crazymaker but that crazymaking qualities are otherwise rare among adulterers? Or are you saying that you don’t like the crazmaking list, or what? You’re not making a lot of sense. Say what you mean.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Let's look at this list from the point of view of a) "Did my cheating spouse do this to me?" and from the point of view of someone who cheated b) "Did I do this when I cheated?"

1. Crazymakers break deals and destroy schedules. a) yes he sure did do this--he'd promised he'd meet me somewhere and never show up, and then say I made it all up in my head. b) well clearly I broke deals! LOL But I did cover up one schedule while living another. 

2. Crazymakers expect special treatment. a) Oh god yes! He actually did often cook just for himself and the rest of us would be like "Hello! It's dinner time for us too!" b) I definitely expected attention and wasn't even aware of what was going on in the world around me (cuz I didn't care).

3. Crazymakers discount your reality. a) ALL THE TIME--in fact, he would stay up all night yelling at me (literally standing at the foot of the bed screaming) as I put on my pajamas, crawled into bed, pulled the covers up, and tried to sleep. My reality didn't exist. b) Honestly, I didn't think about anyone else's reality but my own, and mine was based on fantasy. So...

4. Crazymakers spend your time and money. a) Well for this one, my exH was like "Everything you earn is mine and everything I earn is mine. Everything is mine." b) I have never been a big one on money or materialism (my exH was) but I had no issue spending other people's time which is VALUABLE. I'd leave people waiting without care. I'd ignore people. I'd make people come pick me up and then not ever be there. I didn't value anyone else.

5. Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with. a) I'll be honest, I'm not sure I get this one, but what I do understand is that without the drama, my exH would stir up something rather than live in peace. I think he thrived off the drama. b) I don't like drama so this didn't necessarily apply, but I could more effective deflect from what I was doing if I could goad someone into an explosion or reaction. So ...

6. Crazymakers are expert blamers. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault. a) and b) Yeah, this is self-explanatory. 

7. Crazymakers create dramas-but seldom where they belong. a) I'm not sure if I get this one either, but I do know that if I had a car crash, the car exploded, and I was hospitalized with burns...that my exH had THIRD DEGREE burns that day and had a much worse day than I did.  It was all about him. b) See...I don't really like drama so even in my foggy state I'm not sure if I was like this, but I surely WAS "all about me." It was as if no one else had the right to feel anything--I felt more or worse or deeper.

8. Crazymakers hate schedules- except their own. a) we covered this above, but what my exH used to do was if I had a certain time that was "for myself" he would find a way to interrupt that time or prevent that time from happening. b) again, in the state of "it's all about me" I was not aware of other people's needs. And if I did realize something they needed, I didn't care because it wasn't about me.

9. Crazymakers hate order. a) oh this is definitely true! As much as I tried to bring peace and calm, it was always stirred up. I called it "poke the bear" because it was like he would poke-poke-poke-poke and then when the bear finally took a swipe for being woken up, he'd say "See? You do have an anger problem." LOL b) I tend to be a person who like "a place for everything and everything in its place" but my Dear Hubby was a very messy man. I'm ADD so to me, order means I'm "on track" but disorder/chaos is insanity. But to keep him off guard and off center, I'd live in disorder/chaos cuz then he'd pay attention to the chaos and not to me and what I'm doing.

10. Crazymakers deny that they are Crazymakers. a) 100% true--in fact exH would verbatim tell me this. b) I thought he was crazy to expect me to give a hoot about him when he hadn't given a hoot about me until I finally gave up. Then again, I was thinking EXTREMELY poorly and selfishly!

11. Crazymakers drive you Crazy. a) I think I was somewhat crazy before my exH but he added to the second-guessing and feeling like I was off-balance...because I was. There was gigantic dissonance between my values and what I was doing/how I was living. b) I think I was able to reconcile successfully with Dear Hubby precisely because I wasn't crazy and admitted to myself that I was wrong. So I didn't drive him crazy because I realized I had to look at the man in the mirror first and deal with my side of the craziness.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

So, to summarise, simply cut out the toxic parasites outta your life.

1 rule to fit them all


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

bobert said:


> So you think adultery is comparable to someone exhibiting the above behaviors?


i don't want adultery but that doesn't mean that I have to put up with the other.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> think a list like this comes in handy when one spouse is in a somewhat abusive situation (whether that's adultery or verbal abuse, emotional/mental abuse) and they've been gaslit into believing "it's all in their head."


I was gaslit by my WW.
Aren’t most betrayed spouses gaslit by WS?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobert said:


> So crazy people do crazy things, cool. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. What does this have to do with infidelity? Any one of those "traits" would be a dealbreaker, infidelity or not.
> 
> And as said above, check the definition of an infidel.


I think the post is more about the people who stay with crazy myself.

It should be noted that most BS are not really good at seeing their WS clearly at least at first. Maybe they are to close to the subject.


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