# Archeologist of Truth



## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hi...I'm Dig and I'm P.I.S.D. today. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder)

All you waywards, I'm going to try to help you a bit today. It might not be pretty, but maybe you just might see something in a way you've never thought of before. I know I haven't and I'm the betrayed one and because I just came up with this while my own wayward, Regret, and I talked on our deck.

See...as a BS, I'm kind of like an archeologist of truth. I don't want to be, though. It's not what I studied for and the only desire for unearthing things I've ever had was finding where my dog hid my shoe in the back yard.

For the last few months, though, I have become quite adept as an archeologist.

The BS and WS stand next to each other on common ground. They stare down at the level earth and wonder what is down there. The irony is, the WS knows. They stand on top of the truth. The BS reaches down and picks up the shovel that is sitting there. The WS watches. And waits. The truth is out there, though, so there is nothing to worry about, right?

The BS hacks at the ground a bit with the shovel. Sometimes the ground is hard pan and sometimes its a softer dirt, but either way, the BS has to dig. After a while and the hole is opening up, the shovel clinks something beneath the soil. Reaching down, the BS picks up the chunk and shows it to the WS, who is standing there watching.

"What's this," the BS asks.
"Ohh...I forgot about that," the WS replies.

And the BS continues to shovel dirt over and over. Ever so often the clink of something on the shovel is heard loudly and the BS reaches down to examine it, then shows it to the WS. 

Suddenly, without even knowing...the BS is standing in the hole by themselves while the WS stands above looking down. Laboring with the shovel....sometimes with bare hands, the BS continues to toil and search and dig and recover lost artifacts of the truth. Some are small and some are large, but each one is significant in that the BS is the one in the hole. Digging.

Again and again the BS stands in the hole and holds up an artifact asking "what's this one"?

At some point, the WS needs to get in that f'ng hole and...

Dig


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Hi...I'm Dig and I'm P.I.S.D. today. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder)
> 
> All you waywards, I'm going to try to help you a bit today. It might not be pretty, but maybe you just might see something in a way you've never thought of before. I know I haven't and I'm the betrayed one and because I just came up with this while my own wayward, Regret, and I talked on our deck.
> 
> ...


How right you are! I think this is a great comparison. The reason-in my opinion- that the WS doesnt do any digging is b/c they are too busy up top hoping you'll miss the biggest artifacts and they arent about to out themselves. They know youre gonna find some parts of the skeleton-but hopefully not the spine and skull. They are hoping you stick to the 'small stuff' and never get to the motherload. 

For example, in my case, my H knows I know alot but he isnt quite sure exactly what sooo he's not gonna tell anything just in case I didnt know THAT detail. Then when I say "but what about this" then he gives just enough but often says " I dont remember". I believe he doesnt remember alot but not as much as he claims.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

carefully sifting through the dirt is too delicate for me


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

P.I.S.D. Love it!


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Having the WS "dig" is called individual counseling, and should be a prerequisite to any and all attempts at R. The WS/fWS has quite a bit of work to do, and things to face, and despite what the BS might think, the WS/fWS is also hurting and in a bad place. They WS/fWS are tasked with not only reconciling the marriage, but also, their own fallibility and humanity. The WS/fWS (in a true R) knows they hurt their spouse on a deep level. They know they messed up, and have to atone. Accepting the ugly/dark part of themselves is a difficult task, and sometimes the brain, in an effort to insulate and protect the WS/fWS from further pain, will block certain things out. That's why IC is imperative for both spouses in R. The discoveries the WS/fWS makes in IC can be divulged and discussed in MC, hopefully keeping the BS from becoming the "archeologist of truth." Sometimes things are really just as plain and simple as they look on the surface, not everything has deeper meaning, and when they WS/fWS says "I forgot about that," it could very well be the truth.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Sometimes things are really just as plain and simple as they look on the surface, not everything has deeper meaning, and when they WS/fWS says "I forgot about that," it could very well be the truth.


Absolutely my point. However, even though it might be the truth, it _still_ seems to take the BS to uncover it before they even fathom it.

And it can be pretty painful regardless if it is a truth purposely covered up or a defense mechanism issue of "forgetfulness". The 'I don't remember' stuff can be a real drag.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya it sucks...Ive been there and believe it or not you dig your self thru and come out the other end.

So keep digging and pull the truth out and soon the hole will become a tunnel and both you and Regret can go thru it. just keep in mind its a dirt tunnel and the both of you will get dirty going thru it....so dig it as wide as you can so the *both* of you fit, side by side.

Cuz if you dig it to narrow, then you will only beable to go thru one at a time and it might calapse.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

BTW did you ever see the movie Holes?

A lot of folks are dealing with digging a lot of holes and never get anywere! They dig a little then start another hole..never finding what they are digging for.

Keep an eye at the bottom of the hole, it will turn into a tunnel , it just takes time.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Hi...I'm Dig and I'm P.I.S.D. today. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder)
> 
> All you waywards, I'm going to try to help you a bit today. It might not be pretty, but maybe you just might see something in a way you've never thought of before. I know I haven't and I'm the betrayed one and because I just came up with this while my own wayward, Regret, and I talked on our deck.
> 
> ...


I will go on to read the rest of thread, but this first post captures everything and everyday.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

When AllMessedUp for her own reasons needed some ritual absolution, on her schedule stopped me to talk, asking "What do you want to know?" I wasn't prepared for the conversation and in any event did not know where the bodies where buried. So I said simply, "Tell me the worst." She sat on the deck and pointed me to spot away from the really horrible stuff where there was something just hidden and dirty enough to capture and hold my attention.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Great comparison...

My H hid everything his so well with his EA's, ( I didn't get to hear one call, or see one text or chat)... 

So, I feel like I have a fork,, when I dig, all the dirt goes right back in the hole... facts to never be uncovered.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> When AllMessedUp for her own reasons needed some ritual absolution, on her schedule stopped me to talk, asking "What do you want to know?" I wasn't prepared for the conversation and in any event did not know where the bodies where buried. So I said simply, "Tell me the worst." She sat on the deck and pointed me to spot away from the really horrible stuff where there was something just hidden and dirty enough to capture and hold my attention.


*Ahhh...the old bait and switch tactic. I've seen a bit of that myself and oddly enough with almost the same question. "Tell me what the worst thing you did with him was..." Reminds me of that hiding Queen card rouse.*



Numb in Ohio said:


> Great comparison...
> 
> My H hid everything his so well with his EA's, ( I didn't get to hear one call, or see one text or chat)...
> *
> So, I feel like I have a fork,, when I dig, all the dirt goes right back in the hole... facts to never be uncovered*.


That...really hurts to read.


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## MovingOn89 (Jul 29, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I will go on to read the rest of thread, but this first post captures everything and everyday.


You beat me to it.. Thats exactly what I was thinking.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

MovingOn89 said:


> You beat me to it.. Thats exactly what I was thinking.


Wasn't me. It was Dig.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Dig, as a recent WS, I can tell you, very simply, that the worst thing Regret, or anyone who has an affair, did with their AP was to have a sexual and/or emotional relationship with them and then lie to their spouses and families and deceive them about it. You already know that. Everything in between, everything else, is just "filler." Because all of that "filler," everything else, was just an attempt to justify or cover up the "worst thing." What is the smoking gun that you're afraid of? You already know the worst.

Now, and this is the hard part, you have to figure out if you can heal from that, want to continue to try, and can forgive her and move forward together. What Regret has to do is figure out why she allowed this to happen and what she has to do to make sure that it never happens again, figure out if being with you is what she really wants and then commit to doing everything necessary to help you heal. I think that you have both made it clear that you want to move forward together. So, move forward together.

I really feel like the two of you are on the cusp of a turning point. Hang in there. You guys love each other. A great marriage is right there waiting for you.... reach out and grab it.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Do you think our wayward spouses hold back the worse out of consideration for us or to save their own arses? Maybe to just keep the peace?

Do you think us betrayed spouses will ever feel like we have all the information we need to move forward?

I bounce back and forth between, "He has told me the truth" and "There is no way that is the entire truth". It is one of the main forces that keeps me feeling it won't work out.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Falene said:


> Do you think our wayward spouses hold back the worse out of consideration for us or to save their own arses? Maybe to just keep the peace?
> 
> Do you think us betrayed spouses will ever feel like we have all the information we need to move forward?
> 
> I bounce back and forth between, "He has told me the truth" and "There is no way that is the entire truth". It is one of the main forces that keeps me feeling it won't work out.


I would say it's to save their arses..... if they "considered" our feelings, they wouldn't of betrayed us to begin with.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

i was in a slightly different position. Because I had a back channel I already knew a lot of the answers to my questions before I asked them. First rule of negotiation, right.

The thing is that even after 6 months of me being able to stop a lie dead in its tracks. She still lied.
I even said to her... "You should know by now that if I ask a question. I already know the answer"
It made no difference at all. 
her AP and her had a plan. Get me into counseling and gaslight me for as long as possible. 

In the end I did attend a counseling session while knowing she was still deep in the affair. She was convinced that the wool was pulled firmly over my eyes. I let her believe this until 2 mins into the session where I let loose with fact. even with overwhelming evidence. Times, dates, places she denied it in front of the counselor. 
I looked at her and said. "WS. This is fact. They are your words and your actions. I know this." and went quiet.

it was only then that she admitted it! The counselor let her have it and told her to stop torturing me. That was the last time I bothered to track her. 

Oh and just for the record. The fact that I did this is, apparently, the reason she kept having the affair! 
My behavior was.. wait for it.. Abusive and controlling. 
The affair is now over for other reasons I don't know and she finds herself alone.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Dig....I REALLY FEEL your pain. So sorry you are struggling with this. 

Not sure if this is you or not but I realized about 2 weeks ago after a counseling session that many of my questions were not really questions, they were more like statements meant to cause her pain and in the end cause me pain too. I was punishing her in a way.

I will give you a very painful and hurtful question I asked her.

I asked her this:
So, what does a married woman with kids and a husband at home talk about to there lover after having sex....You're laying there naked, what the hell do you talk about?

When I told my counselor that one he said "I would have walked away"..He told me that I just punched her in the nose. What I was doing was going to cause her to withdraw, to shutdown. And that's exactly what she was doing with those types of questions, she would pull back and away. Even though many on here feels she deserves it, fact is, it wasn't going to help us heal and R, which is the ultimate goal, at least for me it was.

It was hurtful to her and me to ask..I wasn't really wanting an answer, I just wanted to, well, punch her in the nose, make her pay for my hurt.

I have also learned as time goes by I have fewer questions, I have to accept the fact that it was a 15 month A and she isn't going to remember everything and I am not going to know everything, I know the absolute worst, the sickening stuff and everything else is well, just like filler, stuff to fill in the story line of a 15mo affair. I am getting to a point where questions will pop up in my head and I will really ask myself is this that important, will this help us heal? sometimes the answer is yes, many times now it's no and I let it go. 

We can drive ourselves insane with all the questions, especially when the A was long term.
Will I have more questions, sure. Will I struggle with them again, I am sure I will. But I guess I am just getting to a point where they are just not as important as our R anymore. 

Take care Dig..


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This works on so many levels!

First of all, archaeologists look over an area of land to check for signs of human activity in the landscape.

They then use Ground Penetrating Radar to look beneath the surface.

Then the digging starts.

After the items are dug up, they are taken away and cleaned and examined to check out exactly what they are.

They are then recorded in notes and photographed and a report is written on the whole dig, what was found and what was learnt in the process.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

My wife was nice enough to leave a trail of emails and undeleted texts who basicaly gave me the day to day of her affair from the start to the end. She loved to coment every aspect of every meeeting the day after, sorta smoking "the" cigarrete. She was also so nice to "punish me" with the truth (I call punishment by the truth to be cruel cold hearted in describing, normally angryly, what she felt necessary to emasculate me). Anyhow she was soo deep in the fog the few weeks after DDay that most of times she felt I was her gf, the one she finnaly coul confide in after so much time keeping secrets from everybody).
No need to dig here.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Long, hard road.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> I would say it's to save their arses..... if they "considered" our feelings, they wouldn't of betrayed us to begin with.


I think it could be both, maybe even both in the same person.

Yes, the desire to save your arse, but yes, also the genuine desire to save your poor, faithful spouse from more pain when you tell them what you and your AP actually did together.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

I doubt if BS will ever get to the bottom of the truth, ever.

Evidences, place and people are all one thing. The narration of events is one thing and the real feeling of BS when the A was going on, is quite another.

Unless WS fully comes out in all openness, the TRUTH never gets known to BS.

Even if the BS digs the whole ground, they get only the description of what was found and not the describer.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> But I guess I am just getting to a point where they are just not as important as our R anymore.
> 
> Take care Dig..



I'm really. Really! Trying to get to that point.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I'm really. Really! Trying to get to that point.


Be strong, it takes time....a long time. But if you make it it's worth it.

I can't speak for Regret, but I know my wife still doesn't understand why she did what she did. And partly knows but doesn't want to admit because it shows a dark side of her that she hates. I know she doesn't want to talk about it, and after so many years we have probably both rewritten marital history to the extent that the truth is lost.

I think the importance of this thread is that it might help the WS understand how the BS feels. It would be nice if the WS could have a thread where they could honestly talk about their hurt, which is just as real. But as a BS it can take a long time to see through your own pain enough to really understand what your partner is going through.

If Regret is a decent person, and you are both committed to this, you can get through.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Anyone can have a thread. And I cut myself shaving this morning. Hurt a bit. But the pain, however minor and temporary, was real.


This is good, as it can take years for the BS to recover, and to not feel the hurt ( as much) . The only hurt the cheater feels is seeing the hurt in their spouse... or else there would be none.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> This is good, as it can take years for the BS to recover, and to not feel the hurt ( as much) . *The only hurt the cheater feels is seeing the hurt in their spouse... or else there would be none.*


I don't believe that for a minute. Sure some WS go down this road worried only about their own gratification, but for others the affair is the result of a personal crisis of some sort.

In my case my wife and I took on a few tough years, she tried to support me but it was too hard. How I wish she had said something or I had realised, but instead she kept trying until she broke.

Without in ANY way excusing her infidelity, I have to man up and admit my unintentional part in it because I helped create the situation.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Wazza said:


> I don't believe that for a minute. Sure some WS go down this road worried only about their own gratification, but for others the affair is the result of a personal crisis of some sort.
> 
> In my case my wife and I took on a few tough years, she tried to support me but it was too hard. How I wish she had said something or I had realised, but instead she kept trying until she broke.
> 
> Without in ANY way excusing her infidelity, I have to man up and admit my unintentional part in it because I helped create the situation.


A lot of people have personal crisis, this does not justify and affair. You may help create a bad situation, but it sounds like you are taking half the blame for *her* affair.

They may have hurt from the situation before the affair, but they don't have the "hurt" from the affair. This is my opinion.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I think, and this might simply be where I am right now, that the only other hurt a WS might have - besides seeing their BS hurting - is the disappointment in themselves IF they're truly remorseful.

However, I kinda see where numb is coming from, as the pain the WS causes the BS is something they won't ever know personally. While they might empathize with their BS, the true depth of pain can never be experienced by the WS.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> and this might simply be where I am right now


The recognition reflected in these words. Quite a ride, isn't it?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Not one I wanted to be on, man.

I prefer my Harley and some open road...


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> It would be nice if the WS could have a thread where they could honestly talk about their hurt, which is just as real.


Yes, it would be nice, but I don't think there is any room, here, on TAM, for a thread like that. 



> But as a BS it can take a long time to see through your own pain enough to really understand what your partner is going through.


I think when my H allowed me to grieve, to express my hurt, to purge all of the old bitterness from my heart and soul, that my healing truly began. I know that it flies in the face of the logic on TAM, but it saved me. It saved me from myself and it saved us. I couldn't have done it .... I was so broken. His strength overcame my weakness. I simply cannot describe how much I love him for loving me through that time. Now, I am able to help him heal and will spend the rest of my life doing so. Do I know how lucky and blessed I am? Yes, I do. I love him with all of my heart! <3


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Great analogy! But as a BS who was ordered out of our domicile into a "trial separation" by the WS(at the time, under supposedly innocent pretenses), I have become rather adept at "digging" and finding massive artifacts to richly support "cheating" on the part of my STBXW.

And as I continue to collect these artifacts, I stash them into my archive when I plan on unleashing them on her at the most opportune time, whether that is in a courtroom setting or not; but at some place where their exhibition will be most adventageous to me and my legal team. And then a little later, I want to exhibit them to her extended family and friends to let them know the truth, dispelling what falsehoods and innuendos that she came to spread to them, greatly giving me the opportunity to try to reclaim some semblance of my character and reputation!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> Yes, it would be nice, but I don't think there is any room, here, on TAM, for a thread like that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think when my H allowed me to grieve, to express my hurt, to purge all of the old bitterness from my heart and soul, that my healing truly began. I know that it flies in the face of the logic on TAM, but it saved me. It saved me from myself and it saved us. I couldn't have done it .... I was so broken. His strength overcame my weakness. I simply cannot describe how much I love him for loving me through that time. Now, I am able to help him heal and will spend the rest of my life doing so. Do I know how lucky and blessed I am? Yes, I do. I love him with all of my heart! <3


Well that's heartwarming. EI, please stick around and do not be bashful.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> A lot of people have personal crisis, this does not justify and affair. You may help create a bad situation, but it sounds like you are taking half the blame for *her* affair.
> 
> They may have hurt from the situation before the affair, but they don't have the "hurt" from the affair. This is my opinion.


I don't know if the WS hurts more than the BS. How could I? I have never been a WS. I don't know what it feels. All I know is the betrayal was the deepest emotional pain that I have ever felt, deeper than when my father died for example.

But blame is pointless. It happened. What am I going to do? Punish my spouse?

I am moving forward and accepting things I can do that make future marital issues less likely....not impossible, but less likely.

And I can relax to an extent because I am sure that if we are approaching the danger zone again I will see it coming. 

One last thought I am pondering, that might be useful to others. Through the affair, I had the painful lesson that I could never totally trust my spouse. She had the painful lesson that she could not trust herself.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Not one I wanted to be on, man.
> 
> I prefer my Harley and some open road...


Why not take a few days to go off, ride and think?

It's a tough trip and you're at the beginning. Look after yourself.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I don't know if the WS hurts more than the BS. How could I? I have never been a WS. I don't know what it feels. All I know is the betrayal was the deepest emotional pain that I have ever felt, deeper than when my father died for example.
> 
> But blame is pointless. It happened. What am I going to do? Punish my spouse?
> 
> ...



Wazza, you have amazing insight and compassion. I think your wife is a very lucky lady. I hope she knows that, too.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Went for a little dig today, it sucked. I do wonder why we ask for the details when we know the big picture, why do these [email protected] details trouble us so?
I asked a couple questions and stopped short of tears, I was able to stop it. It wasn't easy though.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Wazza said:


> I don't know if the WS hurts more than the BS. How could I? I have never been a WS. I don't know what it feels. All I know is the betrayal was the deepest emotional pain that I have ever felt, deeper than when my father died for example.
> 
> But blame is pointless. It happened. What am I going to do? Punish my spouse?
> 
> ...



With all the "I's" you have in here, I just question why some of the comments don't include "we"?? Especially saying that "I am moving forward and accepting things that "I" can do that make future marital issues less likely"
That's where it seems "you" feel like you pushed her into an affair. 
You say what are you supposed to do, punish your spouse, yet in what way did she punish you? I'm not saying you have to punish and blame , but it sounds like you are putting all the blame on yourself.

Please, don't take this as me arguing with you, I guess with me being a somewhat "newer" BS, and I sure don't say I'm perfect in any way,, but nothing I could have done would justify an affair...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@ betrayed1, it takes a wierd bread to want these painful details, so be warned tread lightly, and go at your own pase. I'm wired different then most so even though a I am a firm believer in getting the ughly details it is not for every one. Again think carefully and ask your self if this will help you now or wait until later when you are stronger.

sorry for the thread jack Digs


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Why not take a few days to go off, ride and think?
> 
> It's a tough trip and you're at the beginning. Look after yourself.


Funny you just said that. Regret literally just said that before I looked here. Unfortunately, I can't take a few days. A few hours, yes. Days, I wish I could but I can't.

Tomorrow, I think I'll go to the range and hit some balls. That usually takes my mind off my home stuff. Too bad it pisses me off more!! 

Stupid game...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> Went for a little dig today, it sucked. I do wonder why we ask for the details when we know the big picture, *why do these [email protected] details trouble us so*?
> I asked a couple questions and stopped short of tears, I was able to stop it. It wasn't easy though.


Bolded....a most excellent question. 

I think I'm done with them though.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

The only range that takes my mind off this crap is the shooting range.

But lets face it hitting balls 300-400 yrds or hitting a taget 100 yrds away with my kids Musin is all good.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> Went for a little dig today, it sucked. I do wonder why we ask for the details when we know the big picture, why do these [email protected] details trouble us so?
> I asked a couple questions and stopped short of tears, I was able to stop it. It wasn't easy though.



No, Babe, you didn't go on a dig. You went on a "walk down unpleasant memory lane." You triggered from reading this very thread. There were no new revelations, absolutely nothing you didn't already know.... just more questions about the same. I will answer anything..... even if it is the same question worded a different way for the 1,000th time if you need me to. But, it hurts me to answer knowing how much it hurts you and it hurts you to hear the answers and I hate (truly hate) having to relive any part of that time over because I so want to let it all disappear from my mind, erase it from my memory. Every time you ask more of the same questions then I must relive it again in my mind. I'm so sorry......


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## LittleMiss13 (Mar 7, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> Great comparison...
> 
> My H hid everything his so well with his EA's, ( I didn't get to hear one call, or see one text or chat)...
> 
> So, I feel like I have a fork,, when I dig, all the dirt goes right back in the hole... facts to never be uncovered.



I can totally relate to this. There were numerous texts and phone calls back and forth to one another. During our family vacations, mornings, noon, and nights. I just can't imagine what they could have texted about so often. I did ask him one time and his response to me was "we talked about our vegetable plants in our gardens." Well maybe this was true for the months of June and July but I don't think that was the case between August and November. I will never know the extent of their texting or phone calls which does make me wonder. :scratchhead:


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

LittleMiss13 said:


> I can totally relate to this. There were numerous texts and phone calls back and forth to one another. During our family vacations, mornings, noon, and nights. I just can't imagine what they could have texted about so often. I did ask him one time and his response to me was "we talked about our vegetable plants in our gardens." Well maybe this was true for the months of June and July but I don't think that was the case between August and November. I will never know the extent of their texting or phone calls which does make me wonder. :scratchhead:


My H says they talked about her son being in baseball, and otherwise it was just "idle chit chat",,,, for 4 months,, I don't believe it for a second.... but no proof otherwise...


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

betrayed1 said:


> Dig....I REALLY FEEL your pain. So sorry you are struggling with this.
> 
> Not sure if this is you or not but I realized about 2 weeks ago after a counseling session that many of my questions were not really questions, they were more like statements meant to cause her pain and in the end cause me pain too. I was punishing her in a way.
> 
> ...


I don't know. How do you separate it from rugsweeping then?


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> No, Babe, you didn't go on a dig. You went on a "walk down unpleasant memory lane."  You triggered from reading this very thread. There were no new revelations, absolutely nothing you didn't already know.... just more questions about the same. I will answer anything..... even if it is the same question worded a different way for the 1,000th time if you need me to. But, it hurts me to answer knowing how much it hurts you and it hurts you to hear the answers and I hate (truly hate) having to relive any part of that time over because I so want to let it all disappear from my mind, erase it from my memory. Every time you ask more of the same questions then I must relive it again in my mind. I'm so sorry......


You know what sweety you are right..I went down a bad bad road asking the same questions over again and getting the same hurtful answers. It's been a rough couple of hours for me. I have not cried like this in days. I have determined that I hate archaeology!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> You know what sweety you are right..I went down a bad bad road asking the same questions over again and getting the same hurtful answers. It's been a rough couple of hours for me. I have not cried like this in days. I have determined that I hate archaeology!



Archaeology = 
You = 
Me = 
I'm coming to tuck you in before you go night-night = 

Be back in a while....


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> I don't know. How do you separate it from rugsweeping then?




Because............ we talk about and deal with the A every single day. What we try not to do is focus on saying things to one another that "only" serve to hurt/punish. There are some "questions" that simply have no answers. Warlock, you know, because I know you have read our threads since the very beginning, that H & I have gone through the entire gamut of emotions, questions, communicating, counseling and rebuilding to lay the groundwork for a marriage that doesn't just survive but thrives. 

Please don't make me put you back on the naughty list?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@EI, what makes you tick? what ever it is, its good and girl you are way better then the old EI. Its hard to see you as a wayward, but thank you for being part of this community.

sorry for the thread jack!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

leave warlock alone, if it wasn;t for him it would get awfull boring around here. (did spell awful right?)

But then again....


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Digs how the digging going?

Hit anymore "finds""

Or has the hole turned into a tunnel?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

the guy said:


> @EI, what makes you tick? what ever it is, its good and girl you are way better then the old EI. Its hard to see you as a wayward, but thank you for being part of this community.
> 
> sorry for the thread jack!


Thank you..... I appreciate that very much. I don't want to oversimplify this... but for me it was so simple, "What makes me tick?" Being loved, adored, cherished and desired by the man I've been married to for 28 years. It's all I've ever really wanted. 

Now, gotta go for a while............


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I feel real bad for triggering B1. Damn. I honestly didn't want that to happen.

Guy...nope. No digging. I think I've dug enough.

If Regret wants to dig, that's fine. It's her hole. I think my job there is finished.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Tomorrow, I think I'll go to the range and hit some balls.
> Stupid game...


Sometimes when I check out to play (which is not nearly often enough and f*ck and I pay for and have unlimited privileges at a really nice place about a good drive and 3 wood away from my house) someone will ask "Why?" 

The answer is simple: I had to hit something.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> With all the "I's" you have in here, I just question why some of the comments don't include "we"?? Especially saying that "I am moving forward and accepting things that "I" can do that make future marital issues less likely"
> That's where it seems "you" feel like you pushed her into an affair.
> You say what are you supposed to do, punish your spouse, yet in what way did she punish you? I'm not saying you have to punish and blame , but it sounds like you are putting all the blame on yourself.
> 
> Please, don't take this as me arguing with you, I guess with me being a somewhat "newer" BS, and I sure don't say I'm perfect in any way, but nothing I could have done would justify an affair...


Numb I don't take it as arguing and the points you are making are perfectly reasonable. Maybe if my wife had approached reconciliation differently I would have had an easier time. But life is what it is.

You keep focussing on blame and punishment. I'm focussed on rebuilding, and that requires me to let go of old wrongs. It's not about denying the wrong she did, it's about forgiving it. And forgiveness is bloody hard, but it's a very selfish act because it's the only way I can move on.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Empty Inside said:


> Because............ we talk about and deal with the A every single day. *What we try not to do is focus on saying things to one another that "only" serve to hurt/punish*. There are some "questions" that simply have no answers. Warlock, you know, because I know you have read our threads since the very beginning, that H & I have gone through the entire gamut of emotions, questions, communicating, counseling and rebuilding to lay the groundwork for a marriage that doesn't just survive but thrives.
> 
> Please don't make me put you back on the naughty list?


You meant the a$$hole list, right? I understand b1's(and your) perspective a bit more now. But I don't think the intention of these questions are entirely to hurt you or punish you. Not that he should continue these questions but can you see any other reason why he is asking you these questions?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Then when I say "but what about this" then he gives just enough but often says " I dont remember". I believe he doesnt remember alot but not as much as he claims.


Canttrustu, my partner, as a lot do, also can't remember plenty. But then other similar things, things that I would really and genuinely expect him to say I can't remember to, he remembers in full detail. I think they remember all, at least all when there is no personal inquisition, when there is no desire to talk, when all the desire to do is to get you to shut up. The affair is a significant episode, and all that surrounds it is. 'I don't remember', full stop, no elaboration, no finding out, move on to the next subject or finish talking completely...is not an answer...as Judge Judy would say. They remember all! They might get lost a little in the order of events, the order of finer detail....but oh, how they remember! They do. They remember all. They lie.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Remains said:


> Canttrustu, my partner, as a lot do, also can't remember plenty. But then other similar things, things that I would really and genuinely expect him to say I can't remember to, he remembers in full detail. I think they remember all, at least all when there is no personal inquisition, when there is no desire to talk, when all the desire to do is to get you to shut up. *The affair is a significant episode, and all that surrounds it is. 'I don't remember', full stop, no elaboration, no finding out, move on to the next subject or finish talking completely...is not an answer*...as Judge Judy would say. They remember all! They might get lost a little in the order of events, the order of finer detail....but oh, how they remember! They do. They remember all. They lie.


Regarding the bolded: The beginning is _exactly_ the same term I used when I got the 'I don't remember' speech. I called bullsnot immediately. How do you NOT remember after all the work it took to deceive and weasel your way to the event?!


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Sometimes I feel as if the I dont remember is used as a defense, or something a person would rather forget and not have to bring up again


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> You meant the a$$hole list, right? I understand b1's(and your) perspective a bit more now. But I don't think the intention of these questions are entirely to hurt you or punish you. *Not that he should continue these questions but can you see any other reason why he is asking you these questions*?


VERY good question (bolded above) Warlock....

I wish someone could explain to me why I want some of these answers. Like I mentioned, some question really have no answer, they are just meant to hurt her, and cause her pain, Others however, have an answer but again the answer is only painful for me to hear and for her to tell. Many times I am asking the same questions over and over. I guess in some way I am still coming to terms with it?

I already know the down and dirty truth, so why do I want to dig more for the dirty details? I don't really know. All I know is it hurts like hell when I hear them and I almost always end up in tears.

She has been so open and always anwers my questions, however, there are some that are just down right nasty and painful. So, I am learning to not dig and dig and dig when the outcome is only going to be pain. I don't think that would be rug sweeping, it's keeping my sanity and being wise. Our counselor isn't big on her giving graphic details, he says in the long run it's only going to hurt and he does NOT recommend it and sees no sense in it. My wife agrees somewhat with the counselor but ALWAYS answers me anyway.

Digging can be like a highly addictive drug, once you start it's hard to stop..it's like you get on a roll and want more and more...


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I think it is very natural to dig and ask away, even if it is just about little things.

Remember that BS and WS are on different time lines while still sharing their lives. BS may even feel behind compared to AP.

BS has a strong desire to catch up, sort of bridge the gap. Therefore they also wish to know everything that went on in the WS head - that's why you often get dirty when you dig


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

B1...our counselor said the same thing. "Don't ask for details about things" and Regret answers anyways. I get that they're trying to get the marriage to move forward, but how the F can't they know that WE are justified in asking?

I don't ask to cause pain. I ask because I, as cpacan said, need to know what was in her head.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> *I feel real bad for triggering B1. Damn. I honestly didn't want that to happen.*


It's ok Digs, I got through it, Yesterday was a little rough, I have had far worse. I just ended up asking some of the same old questions over again, i.e. digging where I had already dug many times before. And guess what, I got the same painful answers. Silly me, thinking I would find something different in the same hole


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I feel real bad for triggering B1. Damn. I honestly didn't want that to happen.
> 
> Guy...nope. No digging. I think I've dug enough.
> 
> If Regret wants to dig, that's fine. It's her hole. I think my job there is finished.



Please don't feel bad. This whole message board is a huge trigger, and, yet, it helps, too, or we wouldn't all be here looking for answers and support. I was wrong, it wasn't this thread, it was one of your posts on hurting 1600's thread. But, it was the same subject. It was about the pain of trickle truth and the details. H & I were in the car last night and I was reading comments to him and he just broke. I didn't see it coming because H & I are past the point of him getting surprised with new details about the physical aspects of the A. My very first post on TAM was on June 11th, 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day (May 27th) and 2 days before I admitted that the OM and I weren't just "talking and going out to lunch and dinner, occasionally," but that it was physical, as well, just as it had been last year. H knew about last year, February through April, 2011, he just did not know that the OM and I had started the A again in July. For those first 2 1/2 weeks I was into some serious trickle-truthing. I was scared, I didn't really know what I wanted, I was very angry, hurting, bitter, defensive, unremorseful, defiant.... I was a very typical WW who had been caught. It was ugly. I was very honest in my posts and caught 10 kinds of Hell on this board. It hurt.... it hurt a lot, but it was nothing compared to the hurt that my husband was experiencing. He was in so much pain and I couldn't help him. I was genuinely sorry that he was hurting, sorry that I had caused his pain, but I was not yet sorry that I had done it. People, here, demanded that I "make this up to him," "show remorse," "beg, plead, grovel," "be honest about everything so that he can make an informed decision about D or R." I was incapable of showing remorse that I didn't feel. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to be begging for.... I had completely checked out of my marriage, emotionally and physically, so I wasn't begging him to stay with me. I didn't think there was any way to save this marriage.... to me it had been over a long time ago. Long before the A ever began the first time. I really just wanted to know how I could help him heal. He wanted details..... graphic details (that is something that I can't understand).... I think that just knowing that it happened would be all of the detail that I could handle. Everyone here said that I needed to answer his questions, honestly, so I did. But, the answers only seemed to worsen his pain. I really thought that the only way he could heal was for us to divorce. I was so much more afraid to tell him the emotional aspects of the A, because, as a woman, I knew that they presented the biggest obstacle for me being able to return to my marriage..... and suddenly, I was beginning to think that that is exactly what I wanted. In all of his hurt, H managed to find the strength to give me exactly what I needed, exactly what had been missing from our marriage for so long.... and what I was looking for (but failed to find) when I had the A. I wanted to be loved. And, so, we began our journey back to each other...... 

I truly believe that if both of you want to be together that you will find your way.... we are, and I think that if H and I can do this that anyone can. You both have to want it.... for all of the right reasons...... Hang tough (I like it when Acabado says that.)

P.S. Yes, I know that I talk/write too much!


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> B1...our counselor said the same thing. "Don't ask for details about things" and Regret answers anyways. I get that they're trying to get the marriage to move forward, but how the F can't they know that WE are justified in asking?
> 
> I don't ask to cause pain. I ask because I, as cpacan said, need to know what was in her head.


Yes, the counselors want to start from now and move forward. Like we are *really *supposed to just let the past go and forget it ever happened. I know in the long run that's what we truly need to do, is let it go and accept, but this close to Dday that's just impossible.

I _think _I ask becuase I don't like being in the dark and part of me fears what they had was better than what we have, and I want to make sure I am, in some odd way, trumping the OM. Part of me asks in hopes it's not as bad as I imagined it was, sometimes that's not and sometimes it is as bad as I imagined it was 

Another part of me asks for an entirely unknown reason. This is going to sound odd I know but....It's almost like, well I have not hurt in a while so lets go ask some questions so I can hurt. The "hurt" is almost like a drug, it's stimulating in a way, a very painful way


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

"I dont remember" is the crux of my misery as we speak(type). I often wonder how many times AP asked a question and he said "I dont remember"- I know- NONE! I have told him that I consider it rugsweeping and I put it in the column of 'unremorseful'- his response------"I understand" UFB!!!!!!!!! 

So, what can I do with that? So he's gonna take it to the grave with him. So the thing is, we may survive the infidelity and die by the sword of untruth.

Really a shame after all we've been thru. Its heartbreaking. Im gonna keep hanging in there until it gets better or I cant do it anymore. I pray every night that he decides to 'remember'.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> You meant the a$$hole list, right? I understand b1's(and your) perspective a bit more now. But I don't think the intention of these questions are entirely to hurt you or punish you. Not that he should continue these questions but can you see any other reason why he is asking you these questions?





SomedayDig said:


> B1...our counselor said the same thing. "Don't ask for details about things" and Regret answers anyways. I get that they're trying to get the marriage to move forward, but how the F can't they know that WE are justified in asking?
> 
> I don't ask to cause pain. I ask because I, as cpacan said, need to know what was in her head.





betrayed1 said:


> Yes, the counselors want to start from now and move forward. Like we are *really *supposed to just let the past go and forget it ever happened. I know in the long run that's what we truly need to do, is let it go and accept, but this close to Dday that's just impossible.
> 
> I _think _I ask because I don't like being in the dark and part of me fears what they had was better than what we have, and I want to make sure I am, in some odd way, trumping the OM. Part of me asks in hopes it's not as bad as I imagined it was, sometimes that's not and sometimes it is as bad as I imagined it was
> (


Okay, guys, I am going to try to answer this as best, and as quickly, as I can because I have things to get done around here and I have to take my baby boy (who is 17) school shopping. This is my last back-to-school shopping trip, ever.... so bittersweet! :'( God, I love my husband and my children!

Warlock, you asked me two questions. The answer to #1 is: No, you're not on my A-hole list! You're tough, but, and H & I have discussed this, your questions are always meant to make the BS or WS (dig deep) and answer the hard, but valid, questions with honesty. I know that you are truly trying to help. When H & I spent the weekend away at a hotel a few weeks ago you left a very poignant/tough question for me right before we left (wait, maybe you are an A-hole... LOL  ) H & I talked about it over the weekend. It wasn't easy.... I came back and answered you, honestly, at the time. Ask me again, my answer may surprise you.

The answer to #2 is: I do think, in the beginning, that H did ask me certain questions, phrased in such a way, as to deliver the maximum amount of punishment potential.... I wasn't remorseful, yet, and he was hurting, so he wanted me to hurt, too. I completely understand that, but that doesn't mean it was good for either of us in the long run. It worked..... it hurt me terribly.... but it didn't make me want to come back to an already painful marriage. It pushed me further away. At some point, H realized that his desire to love me was greater than his desire to punish me..... It was his completely selfless demonstration of love for me during the next few weeks that would change the course of our lives together forever. He was the miracle that I was looking for. ***tissue, please*** As for there being any other reason that he is asking me these questions.... yes, I would assume that he is trying to find a way to make the hurting go away. I think that love and time are the only two things that can help.

Dig, your question is next, then H. And, I have answers, lots of them, just ask H. I have the answers for everything!  But, I will have to get back later, and I will.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> "I dont remember" is the crux of my misery as we speak(type). I often wonder how many times AP asked a question and he said "I dont remember"- I know- NONE! I have told him that I consider it rugsweeping and I put it in the column of 'unremorseful'- his response------"I understand" UFB!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So, what can I do with that? So he's gonna take it to the grave with him. So the thing is, we may survive the infidelity and die by the sword of untruth.
> 
> Really a shame after all we've been thru. Its heartbreaking. Im gonna keep hanging in there until it gets better or I cant do it anymore. I pray every night that he decides to 'remember'.


He remembers.... and I'm sorry, because you deserve better. If he is staying in the marriage, *for all of the right reasons*, and he refuses to give you the answers that you need to heal and move forward, then it can only be because he is ashamed of what he has done. Well, too bad. I don't think that it is his turn to be selfish. I'm so sorry.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> He remembers.... and I'm sorry, because you deserve better. If he is staying in the marriage, *for all of the right reasons*, and he refuses to give you the answers that you need to heal and move forward, then it can only be because he is ashamed of what he has done. Well, too bad. I don't think that it is his turn to be selfish. I'm so sorry.


I know this. Even if its not earthshattering stuff- he still remembers the details of the daily grind of it. His answer is that he was just having 'fun' OMG! F'ing fun while crushing my soul- fun! WOW. So he says none of it mattered to him. It was all insignificant BS.....
Even still, that doesnt give you amnesia even if it was BS! GOD, I cant tell you how pissed off it makes me. But at this point(7mos) I dont want him to start tt'ing me. I just consider that he refused a request to help me heal and it will be considered as I go forward.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I know this. Even if its not earthshattering stuff- he still remembers the details of the daily grind of it. His answer is that he was just having 'fun' OMG! F'ing fun while crushing my soul- fun! WOW. So he says none of it mattered to him. It was all insignificant BS.....
> Even still, that doesnt give you amnesia even if it was BS! GOD, I cant tell you how pissed off it makes me. But at this point(7mos) I dont want him to start tt'ing me. I just consider that he refused a request to help me heal and it will be considered as I go forward.


I agree that of course they remember. As you said, they never told the Ow that. 

I read my sTBEH emails and texts to her. Whenever she asked for details about me, he always had a response. 

My STBEH also said OW was just fun and none of it mattered. 

So, like many cheaters, he ruined my trust and our marriage for some insignificant fun and an orgasm at the end.

It really irked me when he said that as well as he had no plans to ever divorce me. 

Well aren't I a lucky Gal. 

What an insulting thing to say, IMO


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Empty Inside said:


> Okay, guys, I am going to try to answer this as best, and as quickly, as I can because I have things to get done around here and I have to take my baby boy (who is 17) school shopping. This is my last back-to-school shopping trip, ever.... so bittersweet! :'( God, I love my husband and my children!
> 
> Warlock, you asked me two questions. The answer to #1 is: No, you're not on my A-hole list! You're tough, but, and H & I have discussed this, your questions are always meant to make the BS or WS (dig deep) and answer the hard, but valid, questions with honesty. I know that you are truly trying to help. When H & I spent the weekend away at a hotel a few weeks ago you left a very poignant/tough question for me right before we left (wait, maybe you are an A-hole... LOL  ) H & I talked about it over the weekend. It wasn't easy.... I came back and answered you, honestly, at the time. Ask me again, my answer may surprise you.
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

In_The_Wind said:


> Sometimes I feel as if the I dont remember is used as a defense, or something a person would rather forget and not have to bring up again



I'm greatly thinking that when ultimately confronted with her cell phone calling-logs from the phone company, my STBXW will be strongly in denial, will say "the phone company has just made a horrendous error," or "I don't remember who those phone numbers belong to," or the good old standard "I don't remember!" 

It really makes me wonder exactly how she'll come to feel when she sees that the names of those out-of-town boyfriend(s) of hers comes to appear on our amended witness list?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> I'm greatly thinking that when ultimately confronted with her cell phone calling-logs from the phone company, my STBXW will be strongly in denial, will say *"the phone company has just made a horrendous error,"* or "I don't remember who those phone numbers belong to," or the good old standard "I don't remember!"
> 
> It really makes me wonder exactly how she'll come to feel when she sees that the names of those out-of-town boyfriend(s) of hers comes to appear on our amended witness list?


When I stormed up the steps and into our bedroom on the night of Dday with an email from a hotel 30 miles away THIS was exactly Regret's defense. "It MUST be an error. I don't know what this is."

Ummm...it's a hotel receipt...with your name...and your email and CC info.

Yeah - horrendous error.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

FINALLY!!! He took some big steps toward spilling it out.. saying some of the things he DOES remember. He talked for 2 hours. I was asking questions- HE WAS ANSWERING. And b/c I have independent verification I know that he was telling the truth about what he did say. He even added what he was feeling when these things happened. It was excrutiating but nothing compared to the wall of "I dont remember". It helped with losing feeling of being on the outside while he and AP are on the inside. I have the basics- he gave filler which is what I need to move forward. 

Score for the BS' of the world! Score for me and him and R. Im sure theres more and he even agrees and said "If/when you think of more questions-ask and I promise to do my level best to answer. If I dont recall right away, I will do my best to get to the answer. But please understand I dont have all the answers you may be looking for. But I do have alot more than I have previously shared and Im sorry for trying to 'manage' the situation. I keep thinking its about the overall issue and not the details and I know thats just not gonna work for getting where we wanna be" 

So maybe I wont have to continue to be the 'archeologist of truth'? Does this help anyone? 

OP?

Thoughts? Please try to keep it positive, Im feeling good here.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes!! That is awesome news!!

My initial thoughts are don't over-do the questions at this stage. Maybe do something I did, which was write down a list of questions...I had 30 of them. I told Regret that I had the list, but I did NOT share it with her beforehand. Not saying that either she or your husband would be creative with answers if they knew the questions ahead of time...I'm just cautious. 

I'm glad you got some of the filler you needed. That is such a good thing. One of the issues I'm dealing with is that Regret HAS given me the filler. I just keep looking for more and...

Dig


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> FINALLY!!! He took some big steps toward spilling it out.. saying some of the things he DOES remember. He talked for 2 hours. I was asking questions- HE WAS ANSWERING. And b/c I have independent verification I know that he was telling the truth about what he did say. He even added what he was feeling when these things happened. It was excrutiating but nothing compared to the wall of "I dont remember". It helped with losing feeling of being on the outside while he and AP are on the inside. I have the basics- he gave filler which is what I need to move forward.
> 
> Score for the BS' of the world! Score for me and him and R. Im sure theres more and he even agrees and said "If/when you think of more questions-ask and I promise to do my level best to answer. If I dont recall right away, I will do my best to get to the answer. But please understand I dont have all the answers you may be looking for. But I do have alot more than I have previously shared and Im sorry for trying to 'manage' the situation. I keep thinking its about the overall issue and not the details and I know thats just not gonna work for getting where we wanna be"
> 
> ...


I hope everything works out for you.. I was just thinking of this subject while doing dishes... (odd I know),, so what I told myself being 10 months out... is that even if he would open up to me now about the truth,, I don't think I could move forward with him.. Tomorrow is our anniversary, and he didn't want to get into anything this week... so I am waiting until he wants to talk again, and I am going to let him know that I am done.. 
I'm done "digging" in the dark, with a fork. I suppose he learned from cheating on previous wife how to cover his tracks better.. I have no evidence... I am still odd (wo)man out. I have to let go.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Yes!! That is awesome news!!
> 
> My initial thoughts are don't over-do the questions at this stage. Maybe do something I did, which was write down a list of questions...I had 30 of them. I told Regret that I had the list, but I did NOT share it with her beforehand. Not saying that either she or your husband would be creative with answers if they knew the questions ahead of time...I'm just cautious.
> 
> ...


Thats a great idea to keep a list for two reasons 1. I dont want a daily conversation about OW. 2. No creative answers-not saying he would just cautious as you said.

I know what you mean about struggling with what you know AND wondering if that's all. I think that may be a question that EVENTUALLY we have to come to terms with. 

Like I said b/c I had access to his email and 'other' avenues to know what was happening its now helpful to know if/when he's being truthful and where to point my questions. 

AAAHHH, infidelity- the gift that just keeps on giving.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> I hope everything works out for you.. I was just thinking of this subject while doing dishes... (odd I know),, so what I told myself being 10 months out... is that even if he would open up to me now about the truth,, I don't think I could move forward with him.. Tomorrow is our anniversary, and he didn't want to get into anything this week... so I am waiting until he wants to talk again, and I am going to let him know that I am done..
> I'm done "digging" in the dark, with a fork. I suppose he learned from cheating on previous wife how to cover his tracks better.. I have no evidence... I am still odd (wo)man out. I have to let go.


I know what you mean about feeling like odd man out. I HATE it. I told him today "I can deal with your truths, its the lies that are killing us". I said "it would be a shame to survive infidelity and die by the sword of dishonesty" - He thought on that statement for about 15 minutes and then came to me and asked me to sit with him and listen. Im glad I did.

I wish you peace. However you have to acheive it. I know this is the apitomy of agony and wouldnt wish it on anyone. Try to do something for yourself and hang in there Numb.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I could only hit the LIKE button one time. Wish I could have hit it a hundred for you, cant.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Sometimes there aren't enough rocks.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Harken...my favorite line from that movie in an extremely poignant scene. It describes my f'ng life.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> FINALLY!!! He took some big steps toward spilling it out..
> 
> I have the basics- he gave filler which is what I need to move forward.
> 
> ...



Thoughts: Yes, I am so happy for you!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Go hit something inanimate.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Go hit something inanimate.


It's about 30 steps away. Through the door. Into the garage. It weighs 100# and sometimes I'm amazed at how far I make it fly with a well placed straight hand.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I know what you mean about feeling like odd man out. I HATE it. I told him today "I can deal with your truths, its the lies that are killing us". I said "it would be a shame to survive infidelity and die by the sword of dishonesty" - He thought on that statement for about 15 minutes and then came to me and asked me to sit with him and listen. Im glad I did.
> 
> I wish you peace. However you have to acheive it. I know this is the apitomy of agony and wouldnt wish it on anyone. Try to do something for yourself and hang in there Numb.


This is so true, but if he is willing to be divorced vs. telling the truth, then he didn't love me as much as he says he did obviously.. as I do believe he is a narcissist, I have to come to peace ,and not take it so personal. That I was just his "supply", it wasn't about me. I just wish it didn't hurt so much.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

So, this thread has caused a shift in my marriage...a good one I think. Having told my story previously, thought I should post because this changes things a bit.

At the time of WW's affair I stopped talking to her about it because the conversations were blatantly untruthful, and incredibly painful. I never got an explicit admission that she and OM had actually had sex. She just eventually stopped denying it and talked like it was true. That lack of "Yes I did it" was always an issue to me, though I had bigger fish to fry.

So, in part because I had been working on improving intimacy between us for the last month or so, and in part because of this thread, I brought the subject up again last night, and we had a long, and I think honest, talk. And she says they never had sex. She admits to an affair, she admits to holding and kissing, and in the process some of the details she said helped me to identify some other lies she had told at the time. 

As to why she stopped denying - she says she had been unfaithful just by kissing him and loving him emotionally, and arguing about the degree of it was painful for both of us. 

I would have said I had a smoking gun. They had been caught being physical, they spent the night alone together after she lied about that at the time. She actually had said to me at one point during the affair "I had never understood why people made a big deal of sex, then I met him and wow! So it might be good for our marriage since now I might learn to feel that way about you." There's years of counselling to get over a statement like that, right?  But I took that as a tacit admission at the time as well. 

I'm certain she wasn't lying last night. She cannot lie to me in that way without me sensing it. We know each other too well, her body language gives it away. She might have been misremembering details or blocking some stuff, but I don't know that she could block a detail as big as "we had sex".

We also spoke about another time, after WW's affair when a friend of ours had tried to seduce me. At first I had played along before drawing a line (I held the woman but stopped before kissing her). I told her about it...trying to be totally open...the theme of the discussion was 'No more secrets". She knew about it. She had picked up on the vibe between us, had always assumed I had done the deed, and just tried to accept that now we were even.

So, right now I am about to dive back into all the repressed memories and do some more digging. No idea what I'll find, but maybe for the first time the mind movies will stop totally.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Good luck Wazza! For me, and I've told Regret this a number of times including last night - the details help my mind movies go away! Knowing what did happen vs. what my brain thinks happened is a big deal. I usually have them a little severe initially after hearing things, but they literally dissipate within a day or two. The ones that I imagine happen...well, they haunt me for weeks...

I hope you find what you're looking for in there. All you can ask for is honesty.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Although the chickens are slowly coming home to roost in promoting that STBXW definitely had EA's and PA's with two different guys and then was bringing herself home to me and copulating there. Finding this fact out post-separation has, in and of itself, made me feel just so totally dirty and unclean.

But in essence, I can live with that. I've had the many mind movies and they don't really bother me at all. What totally bothers me, in addition to the infidelity on her part, is the blatant deceitfulness exhibited! 

She doesn't have a clue that I even know a thing about her sexual escapades, even to this day. I really can't wait to play my hand of cards before her and her lawyer when and if we ever sit down to begin the mediation process!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> So, this thread has caused a shift in my marriage...a good one I think. Having told my story previously, thought I should post because this changes things a bit.
> 
> At the time of WW's affair I stopped talking to her about it because the conversations were blatantly untruthful, and incredibly painful. I never got an explicit admission that she and OM had actually had sex. She just eventually stopped denying it and talked like it was true. That lack of "Yes I did it" was always an issue to me, though I had bigger fish to fry.
> 
> ...


So, after a lot of digging...I conclude that I can never know the truth.

I don't think she's lying, but she's fooled me before so how do I be totally sure?

I don't think she can have blocked something out of her memory, but I don't understand how repression works. I do know of another guilt-inducing sexual experience she had and told me about, that she later had forgotten, so she is capable of blocking I guess.

So what I have done is make a huge list of all the facts I gathered at the time...things I know happened, things said by her and others ("friends" who knew about the affair and a conversation I had with the other man). I cannot reconcile that with what my wife has just said, but I am relying on my memory. After twenty years, how do I know it is my wife and not me who has rewritten history a bit...or maybe both of us. I have nothing concrete. There was once a letter I made her write to the college exposing the affair, that would be the only written record of what we discussed at the time. I would love to have that letter back and read it but it was destroyed many years ago (and not sent my the way).

The good thing from my perspective is that I can look at all this and it doesn't upset me. I'm not cold or detached, I'm just accepting. So in a weird way, hopefully this is a positive.

The other good thing is, when it all happened we had a short period of very sad and acrimonious conversation, then shut up about it. Even when we rebuilt, it was an elephant in the room for both of us. We are now able to talk about it, which has to be healthy.

I guess if we had done counselling together at the time, we might have got to this point quicker.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Wassa, I am not convinced. Everything is OK as long as you don't get to the bottom of things. As long as you leave central issues, you get along fine. I would fear that this is rug sweeping and will bite you in the a$$ later on.
You may prove me wrong, and i wish it for you, I am just not convinced about this method.
And trust me, I am definitely there myself.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Wassa, I am not convinced. Everything is OK as long as you don't get to the bottom of things. As long as you leave central issues, you get along fine. I would fear that this is rug sweeping and will bite you in the a$$ later on.
> You may prove me wrong, and i wish it for you, I am just not convinced about this method.
> And trust me, I am definitely there myself.


You hit the nail on the head, but the real point is, what is the central issue?

I know my wife, I know she loves me, I know at some time she didn't and she cheated on me. That, and how we come back from it, is the central issue. 

The exact nature of what they did sexually is not the central issue. I can say that honestly now, at one stage I couldn't have. I'm sure more happened than she is saying, and in time I may know it. Or not. One possibility is that I am wrong.

I realise this all looks weird to read. Not really looking for advice, I have put my story out there to help others going through similar stuff, and this was such a significant development (to me) that I felt I had to add it.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I know my wife, I know she loves me, I know at some time she didn't and she cheated on me. That, and how we come back from it, is the central issue.


You are doing and have done what my counselor and other counselors recommend. Left the details behind and just moved forward. Not recommeded here on TAM though at all. I also could not do it. I wanted to dig and wanted details. I have said before and will reapeat it here. Getting the details is a mixed bag, some helped some hurt. Before getting details you better be prepared and better be really willing to work on R, and be able to handle what you are going to hear.

I will say there are some details I wish I never would have gotten, for instance, the OM patting the couch for my wife to lay down with him was one that just crushed me, tore me up and I wish I never got that one. That was something she probably thought nothing about when she mentioned it, but to me, it simply meant he wanted to have sex with her and that hurts beyond belief. Even though they did hace sex, that little act of patting the couch just touched off a nerve in me...I can't believe I am even posting this because the hurt is so raw with it, and the fact I'm not crying while typing this is amazing...I am healing I guess. Anyway back to the point...

So, Wazza...it's been 20 years and you and your wife are doing very well and are happy, I would leave it be. You have moved on and you sound like your in a good solid place. If you can handle what you know and what you don't know then that's all that really matters. 
Don't sweat the fact it's not popular here on TAM, I don't think you are but just in case 

What you know is she loves you and you love her, what you don't know is 20 years in the past and not the central issue to your relationship today. Now if this unknown is burning away at your heart then you have some work to do, but I don't think that's the case. If your happy and you know it then let it be.



Wazza said:


> The good thing from my perspective is that I can look at all this and it doesn't upset me. I'm not cold or detached, I'm just accepting. So in a weird way, hopefully this is a positive.


Yes this is a very positive thing. My counselor has said eventually this is where I will be. Personally, I can't wait.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You hit the nail on the head, but the real point is, what is the central issue?


Thanks. IMO there real point is that one will never know exactly what the main issues are if you can't have any answers.
Suppose she badmouthed you, she didn't respect you, she feel out of love with you etc. These are relevant issues if you to rebuild, suppose she just just sees you as her meal ticket, wouldn't you want to know? I would.

I know you're 20 years out, that makes you situation different, but to Dig, myself and others it might be relevant.

Take care.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Thanks. IMO there real point is that one will never know exactly what the main issues are if you can't have any answers.
> *Suppose she badmouthed you, she didn't respect you, she feel out of love with you etc.* These are relevant issues if you to rebuild, suppose she just just sees you as her meal ticket, wouldn't you want to know? I would.


I know all the bold bits and more to have been true. It reflects where she was in her head at the time. You have to come to terms with that to recover. And by the way in the bad times I said one or two disparaging things about her as well...it's not all her fault. 

Just a meal ticket? Fair question but no, she is financially independent, and she just doesn't think that way.



cpacan said:


> I know you're 20 years out, that makes you situation different, but to Dig, myself and others it might be relevant.


When I started posting I just thought that it would help others to know you can get through. I then realised that the details of others' experiences helped me so I added mine. Clearly my posts in this thread have morphed to include a degree of catharsis.

Those details of what happened used to matter. I can't explain why they don't but all of a sudden they don't. Right now as I type this I am thinking a thought that would until recently have triggered a mind movie and it's not. I cannot tell you how good that feels. 

We can all get through this. BS and WS we are all hurting and there are no guarantees, but we can get through.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Thanks. IMO there real point is that one will never know exactly what the main issues are if you can't have any answers.
> Suppose she badmouthed you, she didn't respect you, she feel out of love with you etc. These are relevant issues if you to rebuild, suppose she just just sees you as her meal ticket, wouldn't you want to know? I would.
> 
> *I know you're 20 years out, that makes you situation different, but to Dig, myself and others it might be relevant.*
> ...



The bolded stuff... This is what I needed. Like B1 I needed to know the details cuz I needed to know the depths that Regret had gone to with the xOM. I needed to know what she was capable of doing. It's horrible to hear - YES. But, I needed them to help me with the mind movies. See, for me, the details helped stop the sh-t in my head that _wasn't_ real. They triggered me, but only for a short while. Well, in the beginning I suffered with them quite a bit but they have certainly not held me back as of late. I have them maybe once every few days or a week. They don't last cuz I know what happened now.

Everyone is different. That's what makes the world go 'round. (Well gravity and other things make the world go 'round but you know...)


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> The bolded stuff... This is what I needed. Like B1 I needed to know the details cuz I needed to know the depths that Regret had gone to with the xOM. I needed to know what she was capable of doing. It's horrible to hear - YES. But, I needed them to help me with the mind movies. See, for me, the details helped stop the sh-t in my head that _wasn't_ real. They triggered me, but only for a short while. Well, in the beginning I suffered with them quite a bit but they have certainly not held me back as of late. I have them maybe once every few days or a week. They don't last cuz I know what happened now.
> 
> Everyone is different. That's what makes the world go 'round. (Well gravity and other things make the world go 'round but you know...)



It is just so terrifying as a CS. You know that your spouse needs honesty in order to move forward and heal but it hurts us so much to see our spouse hurt, knowing that it is our betrayal that is causing them so much pain. It is a surreal experience (not in a good way) to have to verbalize the details of our affairs. With B1 I never knew what was going to be something that he had just assumed or how some minute detail would leave him in tears for the evening. :'( I don't have anymore bombshells to drop on him. He knows the facts, but in a LTA there are many, many details. On the last evening that I saw the OM (I didn't know it would be the last evening at the time) we had gone out to dinner, had a few drinks and come back to his house. He continued to drink and spent a great deal of time listening to music and "playing" on Facebook, although he claimed to hate Facebook.... ironically, that is how I "reconnected" with him after 31 years. I was thinking about my kids a lot that night. They are older, they don't need me every minute and I have never neglected their needs. But, I had gotten a text from my youngest around 11:00 p.m. asking if he could drive my car to school the next day. There were only 3 days of school left. I texted him back and said that he could. I knew that my oldest would soon be leaving for work for his night shift job, and I knew that our special needs son would be waiting for me to tuck him in. Daddy can put him to bed, but Mommy does all of the special "tuck-in" things. No matter how late I would get in, he would wake up when I got home with a list of things Daddy forgot to do. I was just feeling the want and the need to go home. My marriage was over (or so I thought) but I was beginning to realize that I was probably never going to get what I wanted/needed from my former AP, either. I wondered why I continued to put my heart out, wasting my time for something that was, likely, never going to be. The irony of having a husband and an AP and not really getting what I wanted and needed from either of them struck me as painfully sad. But, I thought, at least I have my precious children at home. It was about 11:30 p.m. and I decided to leave.... which was fairly early on a typical evening that I spent there. I told him that it was getting late, that he seemed tired and distracted, that he had to work in the morning and that I thought that I should just go home. At that point, he turned off the computer, laid back on the couch, grabbed a blanket, pulled it back and patted the couch in a motion for me to lay beside him. I didn't leave his house until 1:45 a.m.

Recently, B1, once again, asked me why I was so late that particular evening and I explained it, in detail, as I did above. His tears began to flow and his already broken heart, broke again. With all of the facts and details that he had already had to come to terms with I thought, "what's the big deal?" At that point, it was just 'one more time.' To B1 it meant that with something as simple as the OM 'patting his hand on the couch,' his wife had been unfaithful to him one more time. B1 and I viewed 'one more time' very differently. :'( It hurts me so much to know how much I have hurt my husband.

I love you, B1..... please forgive, and love me and let me love you for the rest of our lives! <3


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> It is just so terrifying as a CS. You know that your spouse needs honesty in order to move forward and heal but it hurts us so much to see our spouse hurt, knowing that it is our betrayal that is causing them so much pain. It is a surreal experience (not in a good way) to have to verbalize the details of our affairs. With B1 I never knew what was going to be something that he had just assumed or how some minute detail would leave him in tears for the evening. :'( I don't have anymore bombshells to drop on him. He knows the facts, but in a LTA there are many, many details. On the last evening that I saw the OM (I didn't know it would be the last evening at the time) we had gone out to dinner, had a few drinks and come back to his house. He continued to drink and spent a great deal of time listening to music and "playing" on Facebook, although he claimed to hate Facebook.... ironically, that is how I "reconnected" with him after 31 years. I was thinking about my kids a lot that night. They are older, they don't need me every minute and I have never neglected their needs. But, I had gotten a text from my youngest around 11:00 p.m. asking if he could drive my car to school the next day. There were only 3 days of school left. I texted him back and said that he could. I knew that my oldest would soon be leaving for work for his night shift job, and I knew that our special needs son would be waiting for me to tuck him in. Daddy can put him to bed, but Mommy does all of the special "tuck-in" things. No matter how late I would get in, he would wake up when I got home with a list of things Daddy forgot to do. I was just feeling the want and the need to go home. My marriage was over (or so I thought) but I was beginning to realize that I was probably never going to get what I wanted/needed from my former AP, either. I wondered why I continued to put my heart out, wasting my time for something that was, likely, never going to be. The irony of having a husband and an AP and not really getting what I wanted and needed from either of them struck me as painfully sad. But, I thought, at least I have my precious children at home. It was about 11:30 p.m. and I decided to leave.... which was fairly early on a typical evening that I spent there. I told him that it was getting late, that he seemed tired and distracted, that he had to work in the morning and that I thought that I should just go home. At that point, he turned off the computer, laid back on the couch, grabbed a blanket, pulled it back and patted the couch in a motion for me to lay beside him. I didn't leave his house until 1:45 a.m.
> 
> Recently, B1, once again, asked me why I was so late that particular evening and I explained it, in detail, as I did above. His tears began to flow and his already broken heart, broke again. With all of the facts and details that he had already had to come to terms with I thought, "what's the big deal?" At that point, it was just 'one more time.' To B1 it meant that with something as simple as the OM 'patting his hand on the couch,' his wife had been unfaithful to him one more time. B1 and I viewed 'one more time' very differently. :'( It hurts me so much to know how much I have hurt my husband.
> 
> I love you, B1..... please forgive, and love me and let me love you for the rest of our lives! <3


Ouch! Isnt it strange how the 'little' things are the ones that turn out to be gut wrenching for the BS? I know alot of what happened with H and OW yet the'little' things keep me awake the most. A particular comment he made to me in reference to her is the one that stands out most. Nothing he said to her but what he said to me about her during the A. Its so strange how that works, right?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Ouch! Isnt it strange how the 'little' things are the ones that turn out to be gut wrenching for the BS? I know alot of what happened with H and OW yet the'little' things keep me awake the most. A particular comment he made to me in reference to her is the one that stands out most. Nothing he said to her but what he said to me about her during the A. Its so strange how that works, right?



I'm so sorry.... yes, I am learning that it is the "little things" that seem to hurt him the most. :'(


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> I'm so sorry.... yes, I am learning that it is the "little things" that seem to hurt him the most. :'(


Yep. But better to hear them 'from' you then 'about' you. If you know what I mean? Its taken MONTHS for my H to be able to talk about the details of the A. Until recently all I ever got was an outline of the relationship and a general timeline. The rest i had to say I knew and wait for him to comment. UNTIL NOW. But he was in 'manage the crisis' mode by keeping the details he thought he was doing damage control. It wasnt that he lacked remorse it was that he feared the reprecutions. I think he understands that the worst part is the unknown for me. My imagination(as with all BS' I would imagine) was taking me over. I was assuming he was covering something HUGE but In actuality I think he was covering the 'little' things for fear of further alienating me and our marriage. Going with the thought of "Im on the right track now. The A is over, I have NC-nothing good can come from spelling out the gory details." I think he gets it now- lets hope. Im glad you get it too. 
B1 needs everything he asks for and if he's like me, he doesnt ask any detail without careful deliberation. I think things over for days sometimes before asking....

so to the OP- I believe we all have to 'dig' for the truth but ultimately its only their willingness to give themselves over that can shine the light on all of your worst nightmares.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> so to the OP-* I believe we all have to 'dig' for the truth but ultimately its only their willingness to give themselves over that can shine the light on all of your worst nightmares.*



This is so true... this is usually the "make it or break it" option.

Mine broke.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> This is so true... this is usually the "make it or break it" option.
> 
> Mine broke.


I know. Im so sorry Numb. I was thinking that might happen in my case too but something clicked with him and he finally realized he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by being honest-even when it hurts me more in the moment. It makes the monster in the corner seem less daunting.

Again, Im so sorry Numb. I wish you peace.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> I'm so sorry.... yes, I am learning that it is the "little things" that seem to hurt him the most. :'(


That's the crazy part, eh? It seems Regret is learning the same. The things that were "small" are things she never even told me...the things I've had to dig for. Those are the ones that hurt. Any kind of sharing she had with the xOM hurt and when there were enough that she couldn't "remember" them, I had to dig.



canttrustu said:


> Yep. But better to hear them 'from' you then 'about' you. If you know what I mean? Its taken MONTHS for my H to be able to talk about the details of the A. Until recently all I ever got was an outline of the relationship and a general timeline. The rest i had to say I knew and wait for him to comment. UNTIL NOW. But he was in 'manage the crisis' mode by keeping the details he thought he was doing damage control. It wasnt that he lacked remorse it was that he feared the reprecutions. I think he understands that the worst part is the unknown for me. My imagination(as with all BS' I would imagine) was taking me over. I was assuming he was covering something HUGE but In actuality I think he was covering the 'little' things for fear of further alienating me and our marriage. Going with the thought of "Im on the right track now. The A is over, I have NC-nothing good can come from spelling out the gory details." I think he gets it now- lets hope. Im glad you get it too.
> B1 needs everything he asks for and if he's like me, he doesnt ask any detail without careful deliberation. I think things over for days sometimes before asking....
> 
> *so to the OP- I believe we all have to 'dig' for the truth but ultimately its only their willingness to give themselves over that can shine the light on all of your worst nightmares*.


The bolded: YES! And I truly believe that only a WS who is ready to fully face those truths will do so. As difficult as it may be. The digging seems to simply be going deeper into their psyche than they ever wanted.



Numb in Ohio said:


> This is so true... this is usually the "make it or break it" option.
> 
> Mine broke.


 Sorry Numb.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I know. Im so sorry Numb. I was thinking that might happen in my case too but something clicked with him and he finally realized he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by being honest-even when it hurts me more in the moment. It makes the monster in the corner seem less daunting.
> 
> Again, Im so sorry Numb. I wish you peace.


So far I am ok.. I felt the relief of finally saying it.. I know it won't be an easy process.. I know he will still try to stay in my life.. But I can't "make" someone respect me,, or totally open themselves up for "us"..if he wants to keep that secret within himself ,, so be it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> That's the crazy part, eh? It seems Regret is learning the same. The things that were "small" are things she never even told me...the things I've had to dig for. Those are the ones that hurt. Any kind of sharing she had with the xOM hurt and when there were enough that she couldn't "remember" them, I had to dig.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with the going further into their psyche. I think as they come to accept what they've done and gain the desire to change taht part of them they are more willing to give you a window to their soul by telling you all of their 'tricks' of the trade. Telling BS how they betrayed and deceived them making hit harder to carry out next time. Then and only then have they truly started to R.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@EI, that sounds like a pretty tame night compared to the details i asked of my wife. I get the jest of what happened between 11:00 and 1:45, but can I be so bold to ask what was going thru your head on the drive home.

My fWW has said that even alone inher car it was like "the walk of shame" if you knwo what I mean. My fWW experiences alot of those.

Sorry for the thread jack Digs.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

No thread jack, man. It's all good!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I was assuming he was covering something HUGE but In actuality I think he was covering the 'little' things for fear of further alienating me and our marriage. Going with the thought of "Im on the right track now. The A is over, I have NC-nothing good can come from spelling out the gory details." I think he gets it now- lets hope. Im glad you get it too.



Yes, this is exactly how it was for me. In fact, the things that I feared the most about telling B1, i.e., having met the OM's parents, children, friends, helping the OM take his elderly parents to the doctor for a checkup, helping him rescue his children's pets from the dog pound, those things had very little effect on B1. He said that it didn't surprise him that I helped the OM take his parents to the doctor or that I helped him rescue the pets. He said that those were the kinds of things that he would have expected me to have done because they are just in my nature. To me, those were big deals, because it made me feel "needed" and like I was a part of something (his family.) To me I saw those kinds of things as more of a threat to our marriage than the sex. I had an emotional and a physical relationship with the OM, but it was the emotional relationship that I was desperately seeking.... and I hadn't even realized that, myself, when the A first began.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I agree with the going further into their psyche. I think as they come to accept what they've done and gain the desire to change taht part of them they are more willing to give you a window to their soul by telling you all of their *'tricks' of the trade.* *Telling BS how they betrayed and deceived them making hit harder to carry out next time. Then and only then have they truly started to R.*


Yes, you are so right. A few weeks ago, B1 and I were out running some errands and I realized that we were within a couple of miles of the OM's house. My husband is an intelligent man and I have no doubt that he could have the OM's address in less than 60 seconds if he wanted to. In fact, I have no doubt that he already has it. But, just having the address doesn't really mean that B1 realized just how close to the OM's house that we were. I started to feel like it was the "elephant in the room (car.) I didn't know whether to say anything or not. So, finally, I just said, "Would you like me to show you where his house is?" He said, "No," but I think he understood that by my offering to show him that I was creating "a little insurance policy" insuring that I wouldn't go there again, because B1 would know exactly how to get there. I thought it might take a little of the mystery out of things, as well. I have given B1 information that he would not have had access to like the OM's private extension at work..... just to insure that that number wouldn't appear on our phone bill again. I have told B1 many of the "tricks of the trade," like how to make certain information visible to some on Facebook and invisible to others. The BS just looks at you with such a look of bewilderment, wondering how you could have become so deceitful..... sadly, as with any "job," the longer you do it, the more experienced you become. I have, at times, offered B1 more information than he asked for just to create "little insurance policies" against my potential weaknesses. When B1 insisted that I delete the OM from FB, in the first few days after D-Day when I was still in the angry, p'd off, everything was his fault, I'm not in love with him anymore, I don't even want this marriage to be saved stage,.... I not only deleted the OM, I deleted his children, as well, because I knew that having them on my FB would only make it more difficult for me to get over, move on, and heal from the loss of that relationship. His children belong to his Ex, so they don't have the same last name. B1 would have never known if I had kept them on FB. He would have never known that they existed if I hadn't told him. I wasn't sure that R was going to work for us, I wasn't sure that I wanted it to.... but I was sure that if I was going to give it a chance, that I was going to give it a real, 100%, honest, put my whole heart and soul into it chance. 

I cannot tell you how happy, blessed, grateful, amazed, lucky, on top of the world, happy I am that I/we did. But, I give the credit for that to B1. He loved me the most, when I was the least lovable and least deserving of his love.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Just from reading so many stories here on TAM, it shows the different make up of people. 

The ones than can go through A's, such as EI - B1, and can forgive, work through and come out stronger in the "end".. if there is an end..maybe I should just say on "the other side"...

And then there are ones who can't work through an EA, or ONS. I know it depends on the dedication and commitment of both spouses... but it is hard for me to understand how people move past the betrayal... the emotional separation involved.. to know that your spouse at that time built an emotional bond with someone else... not just a " it's just sex"--A. They actually form a relationship!

And please, don't take it as me discounting anyone who can, I commend anyone who can. I guess I envy those couples who have that kind of love and strength.

It's nice to read the "Happily ever afters"... Prayers to you all.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

the guy said:


> @EI, that sounds like a pretty tame night compared to the details i asked of my wife. I get the jest of what happened between 11:00 and 1:45, but can I be so bold to ask what was going thru your head on the drive home.
> 
> My fWW has said that even alone inher car it was like "the walk of shame" if you knwo what I mean. My fWW experiences alot of those.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack Digs.


I would go into auto-pilot on the way home. I had a routine. I called my daughter and talked to her while I drove. She, and everyone else, thought I was out having dinner and drinks with a girlfriend. I would come into the house, stop by the laundry room, take off my clothes and change into sweatpants and a t-shirt. I had been sleeping on the couch for over a year, at this point, but I did go into the bedroom to take off my jewelery and put it into a bowl on the dresser. B1 was never awake when I came in and he never stirred even when I went into the bedroom..... until the last two nights I spent with the OM..... 8 days apart. One was at 4:00 a.m. and the last one at 2:00 a.m. He was awake both of those nights. He had begun to get suspicious. Prior to that, he never asked me the next day what time I came in, whether I had had a good time, what we had done, where we might have gone..... I used all of that in my head to justify that he really didn't care what I was doing.... I assumed that he was just "looking the other way." In reality..... he simply trusted me.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> Just from reading so many stories here on TAM, it shows the different make up of people.
> 
> The ones than can go through A's, such as EI - B1, and can forgive, work through and come out stronger in the "end".. if there is an end..maybe I should just say on "the other side"...
> 
> ...


Numb, I don't know your story. I will make a point to read it tonight. But, I do want to say that B1 and I were just about as disconnected as two people living in the same house could be. We had been living like "roommates" for a long time and we were starting to become hostile roommates. I did have a very strong connection to the OM. He was a former love from when I was still in high school. The relationship was both an EA/PA. 

I honestly did not believe that our marriage could be saved. Neither did our MC. But, at one time, before life, health, finances, the pressure of too much responsibility to too many people, got in the way, we were very much in love. We were young when we married, 19 & 20, and there were certain aspects of our relationship that definitely had room for growth, but in hindsight, I am blown away at how much we did manage to accomplish. I can only say that I told our MC that it would take a miracle to out our marriage back together. Well, now I believe in miracles. Two months ago, we decided to honor the marriage vows that we made 28 years ago, put everything we had into this R and, here we are....... truly happier, healthier, stronger, and more blessed than we ever imagined that we could be. I think the key is that both spouses have to give it their all. One spouse, whether it be the BS or CS, cannot fix a broken marriage by themselves.

I wish you the best of luck. I am so sorry that you're hurting this way.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I got the same thing from Mrs. the-guy with regards to "getting home" she told me she thought I didn't care and was looking the other way...your statement validates alot things that were said so many years ago when we were neck deep in this crap.

But back in the day years before I confronted her;
We slept in the same bed some time I would wake and sexually treat her the way she was behaving, this would happen when it was late 4-5 AM, She was often so drunk that she would just submit to the rough sex. Some times I would be to drunk or it was only 1-2 AM and I'd sleep throw.

it got to a point were she just stopped coming home, it was a year before I confronted her.

It got bad, 2 month before confronting, when she would leave in the middle of the night...go to bed with her, then wake up in the middle of the night and she was gone, then wake up and she was asleep next to me. This is when it all came down on her, I started digging.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think after so many years(13) and rug sweeping the 1st A the resentment had a deep hold on the M...for both of us.

Its wierd how I didn't want to believe she was sleeping around but in the back of my mind I figured treating her the way she was behaving was messed up. In my mind I quess I thought she was just out with friends flirting with guys so I would punish her in a very unhealthy sexual way.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

EI,, it is odd, but right now, after finally deciding on D... I am not hurting as much as I was. It took me a long time to get to this point.. My story has been all over the place for almost a year. EA's, emotional abuse, etc. 

I almost feel a relief....I think I would have been to this stage sooner if I would have found this site sooner.. I was letting the unknown eat away at me.. now I know, that the unknown will be there forever,, but I have to let myself move on.. for me.. I can't dwell on it. He is a narcissist who will, can not change. 

Even though he stopped talking to these women ( that I know of anyway),, I was not going to try and compete with an ex hs gf that he has remained in a physical and emotional connection with since hs. (30 years).. He cheated with her on his previous wife as well.. yet says now they are "just friends". Is that possible? Another unknown.

Thank you.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> EI,, it is odd, but right now, after finally deciding on D... I am not hurting as much as I was. It took me a long time to get to this point.. My story has been all over the place for almost a year. EA's, emotional abuse, etc.
> 
> I almost feel a relief....I think I would have been to this stage sooner if I would have found this site sooner.. I was letting the unknown eat away at me.. now I know, that the unknown will be there forever,, but I have to let myself move on.. for me.. I can't dwell on it. He is a narcissist who will, can not change.
> 
> ...


You're doing the right thing for yourself. You can't reconcile your marriage without your partner being completely willing to give you everything you need to heal. If he were capable of loving you the way that you deserve to be loved he would know this. I know how strong of a "pull" those old H.S. loves can have on a person. If he has remained in contact with her for 30 years, I doubt, very much, that he will ever completely break contact with her. Is she married? Does she have children?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

the guy said:


> she told me she thought I didn't care and was looking the other way...*your statement validates alot things that were said so many years ago when we were neck deep in this crap.*


I hope that's a good thing.

I think that the two of you, much like B1 and I, got the miracle that was needed to put our marriages back together. I don't ever plan to take mine for granted, ever again.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Yes, it was a miracle that I started to give a damb about her when I did, she was well on her way to self distruction. The things she was doing the year before I confronted were very dangerous. She settled down for a month then met the OM that I confronted her on.

That last year was greatly due to a toxic friend that used fWW good looks to get the guys. Once she left the toxic friend and after that TF put her in a very dangerous place my fWW was still gone.

The details about that last event with TF really showed me were my fWW was at with her 2nd life and how I could have/should have saved her sooner.

My fWW told me these details and even though they were painful it gave me a clear idea in what I was dealing with.

She ended up calling BFF from childhood who came and got her out of there, the TF stayed with the dozen drugged up guys. I would have never have known except for the true remorse my fWW has.

I would have never have known what she had to do..like picking out the biggest ughlest guy there to "befriend".........

That was the last time she was set up by that TF and the last time she ever went out with her. 

So for what its worth I'm with the crowd that needs the details to really see what your truelly dealing with. So I have to believe that knowing I would have never have found out about that one "party" why would fWW even lie about it? I have to believe its real remorse that gets me from just digging a hole to finally making a tunnel and going thru it.

BTW this is just one of the scarier stories, there a a few more, like the time she got into a car and the strange guy had plastic wrapped over his ulpostary.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

the guy said:


> Yes, it was a miracle that I started to give a damb about her when I did, she was well on her way to self distruction. The things she was doing the year before I confronted were very dangerous. She settled down for a month then met the OM that I confronted her on.
> 
> That last year was greatly due to a toxic friend that used fWW good looks to get the guys. Once she left the toxic friend and after that TF put her in a very dangerous place my fWW was still gone.
> 
> ...


This is so true. Real remorse is visable. Its palpible. It doesnt protect itself. It doesnt defend its actions. It puts the truth out and fights like hell to fix what its broken.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Empty Inside said:


> You're doing the right thing for yourself. You can't reconcile your marriage without your partner being completely willing to give you everything you need to heal. If he were capable of loving you the way that you deserve to be loved he would know this. I know how strong of a "pull" those old H.S. loves can have on a person. If he has remained in contact with her for 30 years, I doubt, very much, that he will ever completely break contact with her. Is she married? Does she have children?


Yes she is married,,she had separated from her H and was sleeping with many men, and another woman( this was his other friend he was talking to that he had met at that time through his ex gf.. yet said he walked away from a 3some with them) :scratchhead:

Her H and her got back together ,, she has I think 2 boys. 

I exposed to her H about them talking,, and told him that they had slept together years ago, he never knew this... they are still together, but I hear they are having issues over it all.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

This thread is horrible..I just had to check it again , didn't I ? The details are an extreme trigger.(just in case anyone misunderstood)


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> *I agree with the going further into their psyche.* I think as they come to accept what they've done and gain the desire to change taht part of them they are more willing to give you a window to their soul by telling you all of their 'tricks' of the trade. Telling BS how they betrayed and deceived them making hit harder to carry out next time. Then and only then have they truly started to R.


I agree with this as well. Getting to the heart of the "how," but for me, not logistics, exactly. Rather, what lies do they tell themselves to justify it? And then showing them that part of who they are so that they confront it, not just for you, but for _them_. Still working on this, my H is not exactly what you'd call introspective...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> This thread is horrible..I just had to check it again , didn't I ? The details are an extreme trigger.(just in case anyone misunderstood)


Sorry, man. 



iheartlife said:


> I agree with this as well. Getting to the heart of the "how," but for me, not logistics, exactly. Rather, what lies do they tell themselves to justify it? And then showing them that part of who they are so that they confront it, not just for you, but for _them_. Still working on this, my H is not exactly what you'd call introspective...


Regret was definitely NOT introspective. Heck, why would she have wanted to be? Honestly, lying and betrayal over a 5 year affair...well, that introspective stuff is a scary deal.

After her breakthrough with MC/IC and understanding that it's the details she held inside that were paramount to MY healing, well...that is when things made a swing in the right direction. She lied so badly not just to me but to herself. She sees that now. It is truly amazing how people will actually deceive themselves to meet a means to an end.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

BUMP

Because my husband is an amazing man despite my flaws. He is banned from TAM, but I hope others can learn from his integrity, tenacity and strength.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> BUMP
> 
> Because my husband is an amazing man despite my flaws. He is banned from TAM, but I hope others can learn from his integrity, tenacity and strength.


Why was he banned?


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Why was he banned?


Because he wanted to right some wrongs in another section of TAM. Although, others who did the same were not permabanned like he was. His hope is that his threads in CWI somehow can help others. Please, if you're suffering through infidelity, read ALL of his threads and keep his stuff alive by commenting to each other.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Because he wanted to right some wrongs in another section of TAM. Although, others who did the same were not permabanned like he was. His hope is that his threads in CWI somehow can help others. Please, if you're suffering through infidelity, read ALL of his threads and keep his stuff alive by commenting to each other.


Sorry he was banned I know this place is helpful for a lot of hurting people....good luck to you both...


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thank you, Truthseeker. We are doing well a year and a half from Dday. We have moved on a lot. We will now move on even more


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Thank you, Truthseeker. We are doing well a year and a half from Dday. We have moved on a lot. We will now move on even more


Yeah power down the computer and sail off into the sunset


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## TimesOfChange (Mar 20, 2013)

Archeologist of Truth = opening Pandora's box


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Will miss Dig, always found him insightful and wrote how he truly felt. There are many who do not want to face the reality of the situation and Dig did get people to look in the mirror.

Wish Dig and Regret well and pray for your future.

Thanks


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Well, I know that he can't be banned from reading TAM, so Dig, thank you for bringing your level of understanding, intelligence, wit, wisdom, sarcasm, humor, cynicism, common sense, directness, levity, courage, and one of my personal favorites: compassion, when compassion was due, during your time on TAM. 

You have B1's contact information, please keep in touch.

Best wishes to you and Regret. With the two of you having just moved, this might be the right time for a whole new beginning...... without TAM..... cold turkey.... NC ;-)

Take care,
~EI


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi

I've been lurking for months, don't plan to share my story, R for 18 months and I have imparted wisdom when I can. I just ran across this thread and it sure speaks to where I am right now. Thanks for bumping it. Sorry to see you go.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Is there no way to appeal? I think Dig had a ton of useful advice and experience that he generously shared here. It's a real loss for the community. I wish you the best of luck moving forward.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Dig was there for me when I needed somebody on more than one occasion.. I thought he was just taking it easy since he moved to FL, was also thinking how it's a shame he's not here to help people like me, but probably good for his R... but I wouldn't expect someone would prevent him from being here to help others permanently. That's a shame, what a loss for any new person suffering from infidelity that could use his insight. My best to you both, thank you for the inspiration.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Permanently banned again? That's kind of funny stuff. Thanks, Regret, for the post. My own view is that you and dig should leave this place behind and enjoy sunnier skies. With my sincere best wishes.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Sorry he was banned I know this place is helpful for a lot of hurting people....good luck to you both...


Members like Dig add infinite value to this site.

I understand why the bans work like they do, but a climate of fear does not result in longevity.

We are all guests on TAM - even 'supporters', but that relationship works both ways.

I will miss Dig and his absence is another reason for this experienced poster not to risk helping others. This diminishes the site for all - including whomever owns it.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Hi Dig


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

When I was in college there was talk about "Balance Rock". Older alumni would talk about hiking up to it and state that at some point it was jack hammered. It actually happened around 1968 over concerns that it would roll down on the villiage. 

Sometimes we don't have to dig. When I played the VAR to my wife back in February of her having sex with the XOM, there was the huge boulder.

As far as everything else, yes I had to dig, and dig alone, until she finally came clean. 

Had to dig in 2010 and 2011. And with every artifact in 2010 all I got was lies and denials. 2011, partial truth.

It has been a long haul thus far. I am slowly filling up the hole at this point. Still got some of the artifacts and perhaps one day just get rid of them. 

Dig, you will be missed.


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## Want2babettrme (May 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Because he wanted to right some wrongs in another section of TAM. Although, others who did the same were not permabanned like he was. His hope is that his threads in CWI somehow can help others. Please, if you're suffering through infidelity, read ALL of his threads and keep his stuff alive by commenting to each other.


It's a shame that he's been banned. Dig's postings speak with an eloquence and honesty that more than once left me in tears and a couple of times unable to breathe.

Regret, you have also more than earned my respect with the willingness of your introspection as well as your courage and openess in your postings here. You both are special people and have helped many here in more ways than you will ever know. Please cherish and care for eachother as you go forward in your journey.

Want2babettrme


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

My computer broke and was off the net for about two months. Missed him getting banned.

TAM is less without Dig.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Fair skies and happy tailwinds, Dig. You should be unbanned. But it's someone else's call.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

WTF....tell the son of a b1tch I'll miss him and bunch him in the arm as hard as you can for me. 

It sucks, but he...like many others in the past added alot to this community and get booted.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Recommended the thread to someone else, and in the process reread it and thought I better post an update. This is stuff that is available elsewhere on TAM, but adding here for completeness.

I wrote here a year ago, about conversations where I reopened "what happened" with my wife, and I wondered if she had lied. Well, I decided I needed to know, so I tested things, and quickly trapped her in a basic inconsistency. 

So she lied. She had the chance to come clean, and didn't. It is long enough ago that trying to get to the truth and verify it independently is no longer possible. I just had to let go.

We are good, but it will always be a stain and a limitation on our relationship.

There are many ways in which my wife is utterly amazing, and I have chosen to stay with her, happily. I wish I could fix this aspect of the marriage, but I can't.


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## mamabear131617 (Oct 5, 2013)

EI said:


> Dig, as a recent WS, I can tell you, very simply, that the worst thing Regret, or anyone who has an affair, did with their AP was to have a sexual and/or emotional relationship with them and then lie to their spouses and families and deceive them about it. You already know that. Everything in between, everything else, is just "filler." Because all of that "filler," everything else, was just an attempt to justify or cover up the "worst thing." What is the smoking gun that you're afraid of? You already know the worst.
> 
> Now, and this is the hard part, you have to figure out if you can heal from that, want to continue to try, and can forgive her and move forward together. What Regret has to do is figure out why she allowed this to happen and what she has to do to make sure that it never happens again, figure out if being with you is what she really wants and then commit to doing everything necessary to help you heal. I think that you have both made it clear that you want to move forward together. So, move forward together.
> 
> I really feel like the two of you are on the cusp of a turning point. Hang in there. You guys love each other. A great marriage is right there waiting for you.... reach out and grab it.


I totally agree with this. I kept digging and digging but came up with nothing. I was driving myself nuts. I am 99% sure there is much more to the story than I know. I ONLY know what I found out on my own. Ws has not offered one piece of new information. I find it very unlikely that I just happened to catch him and all that was said and done the "only" two times he strayed. Very doubtful.

But I realized none of that matters. It doesn't matter how many women, how many times, what more was said or done. We would still be in the same place even if I knew everything. What matters to me is the action he takes NOW, in the present. We both know he screwed up, we both know he has deep rooted issues that make him feel it is okay to stray. Now all that matters is if HE digs deep and figures out why he does the things he does and changes. I have a feeling "truths" will slowly come out then. 

I am done digging. Finding artifacts really doesn't explain anything unless you figure out how they got there to begin with.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

EI said:


> Dig, as a recent WS, I can tell you, very simply, that the worst thing Regret, or anyone who has an affair, did with their AP was to have a sexual and/or emotional relationship with them and then lie to their spouses and families and deceive them about it. You already know that. Everything in between, everything else, is just "filler." Because all of that "filler," everything else, was just an attempt to justify or cover up the "worst thing." What is the smoking gun that you're afraid of? You already know the worst.


The problem is this is a generalized statement. It is true. Though the problem is that it does not take into account a BH's individual need to how much of the story that he needs to know.

It is true that a the more a BH knows about the affair the harder it makes recovery. Then harder for the BH to forget the affair.

Though a BH that does not get the level of truth that he needs he will never rest even thirty years out from dday.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

Shoot! I saw this was posted by Dig and thought he was back.
Dagnabbit!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Hi...I'm Dig and I'm P.I.S.D. today. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder)
> 
> All you waywards, I'm going to try to help you a bit today. It might not be pretty, but maybe you just might see something in a way you've never thought of before. I know I haven't and I'm the betrayed one and because I just came up with this while my own wayward, Regret, and I talked on our deck.
> 
> ...


Dig was banned! Sad.


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