# Good husband, not a good life partner



## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi, this is my first post. I hope maybe you can help me with something I'm struggling with.

I am female, 24 and have been with my boyfriend for 14 months. I love him dearly and he loves me, we are both each other's best friends. Despite all the love, I am never confident he is the person I will want to build a life with and I finally decided to talk it over with a therapist, who really put his finger on the money: he is the one I love and want, but logically in my mind I don't find him a good choice.

The reason my head doesn't agree with the choice is because he is a very difficult person and has many emotional problems which may cause serious problems in the future. How is he difficult? Very argumentative and stubborn, he will develop almost anything into an argument. He can be cold and withdrawn quite often. His family relationships (with his father, mother and sister) involve a lot of shouting and yelling. And I mean REALLY bellowing. He's only done that to me once, but the therapist made a good point - how will you feel when he yells at your kids that way? 

The relationship is dramatic and stormy, there are constant arguments but also many good times. A relationship with him will never be calm. He has a lot of issues with his parent's divorce and mainly with his father, who is completely emotionally closed off. They never talk about feelings in his family and I have never heard even his mother tell him she loves him.

To summarize (sorry this got long), the therapist said that it sounds like my bf could be seriously ill-equipped to deal with life and the difficulties I have had so far with him are the tip of the iceberg. How will he handle life's challenges - engagement, marriage, pregnancy, children. Will he be sensitive to a male child or be merely an authoritative figure as his father was to him? All of these things will be a hailstorm to deal with and until he deals with his issues, if he is even able to, he might not cope well with them.

In short, the therapist said that my bf can make a very good husband, but almost definitely not a good life partner. That I have the option of looking for both. But I love him. So I'm conflicted. I don't want a life of hardship but am I really supposed to just toss him aside because "I'm better"?? (Every single member of his family has told me I deserve a medal for being with him, as well as his close friends.. it really annoys me but maybe I should be listening?)

He did say that that could change with therapy but the way I see it, first I have to see if I can even get him to agree to it. Then, if he does go through it, what if it doesn't help him? Am I going to make him go through all that so in another year or two I'll tell him "sorry, despite doing everything you could and going through the painful process of dealing with your childhood for me, you're too screwed up for me and I'm looking for someone better"

I'd really appreciate any advice or feedback. Sorry this was long..


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Don't try to change him by therapy. That's something he has to decide for himself. It's crap if someone decides to marry you only in hopes that you might change.

I dunno, it's a decission you have to make. This kinda guy is tough to handle and there will be many situations where you'll be weak and he won't care to be there for you. Now, this is something you have to figure out. if your personality is strong and you can handle that, marry the guy. If you're sure that you'll need support during times of need, two options. Either give him up, or develop a relationship with a very good female friend who will be there for you no matter what. As for how he'll be with your kids....he could be just like his father..or if he was genuinely be hurt by his dad, he could end up being the totally oposite, really caring dad that let's his kids do anything hey please. There's no way you ca know which of the 2 will happen.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

Nekko said:


> Don't try to change him by therapy. That's something he has to decide for himself. It's crap if someone decides to marry you only in hopes that you might change.


I 100% agree with you. I would never marry him and then ask him to go through therapy. The thought was something along the lines of "I won't marry you until you at least try to deal with your issues". Then its up to him.. and if he is able to deal with these issues, we can get married. He has seen a therapist before BTW (of his own accord! nothing to do with me) so he is aware of these issues, he just didn't like her and hasn't felt like trying again.



> I dunno, it's a decission you have to make. This kinda guy is tough to handle and there will be many situations where you'll be weak and he won't care to be there for you. Now, this is something you have to figure out. if your personality is strong and you can handle that, marry the guy. If you're sure that you'll need support during times of need, two options. Either give him up, or develop a relationship with a very good female friend who will be there for you no matter what. As for how he'll be with your kids....he could be just like his father..or if he was genuinely be hurt by his dad, he could end up being the totally oposite, really caring dad that let's his kids do anything hey please. There's no way you ca know which of the 2 will happen.


I see what you're saying. I do have a very strong personality and very close female friends. I have always felt that if things ended between the two of us, it would be extremely painful but I would definitely survive. I have an outside support system. But that doesn't mean I _want_ to deal alone with those situations. Why should my friends take over the role my husband should be fulfilling? What's the point of marriage if you'll just be alone facing challenges? 

I mean, I guess the road is clear: give therapy a shot, if it works out, marry. If not, move one. But its so much easier said than done. I love him so very much, more than I've ever loved before. Do you really just walk away from that? Maybe all the hardship is worth it for that kind of love.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

And thank you very much for your response!


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

babooshka said:


> so he is aware of these issues, he just didn't like her and hasn't felt like trying again.


Well, this is great to be honest. He's at least open to the idea. 



> I see what you're saying. I do have a very strong personality and very close female friends. I have always felt that if things ended between the two of us, it would be extremely painful but I would definitely survive. I have an outside support system. But that doesn't mean I _want_ to deal alone with those situations. Why should my friends take over the role my husband should be fulfilling? What's the point of marriage if you'll just be alone facing challenges?


The situation is not black or white. I don't think he'll always be a complete jerk and not be there for you. And your friends shouldn't take over the role your husband should be fulfilling. But he isn't, from what you describe at least, constant and reliable in his support. So getting in a marriage with him, you are taking a chance to sometimes have a weak moment and no support from him. Know what i mean? If at this time you feel completely alone, or like you will be completely alone in facing challenges, then yes, marriage is probably a bad idea with this guy. Dunno, only you can really decide that. If this i a case of 'he may sometimes be a jerk while i'm pregnant and i'll have to sometimes turn to someone else for support' then, again, it's your decission if you want that in your life. I doubt he'll be unsupportive just to be mean. But if his issues grow enough to make him only worry about himself in given situations or if he feels like he can't cope he'll most likely not be able to be there for you. How much this affects you, again, only you can know. Ideally, we'd all want our spouses there every single day, and full support from their part. Since that rarely happens, all of us settle for what we can handle and still be happy with. 



> I mean, I guess the road is clear: give therapy a shot, if it works out, marry. If not, move one. But its so much easier said than done. I love him so very much, more than I've ever loved before. Do you really just walk away from that? Maybe all the hardship is worth it for that kind of love.


I dunno. Have wondered that for a long time. I was trying to convince myself to leave. Instead i convinced myself to study him so bad that i can make my marriage the best i can. And i did. One year later things seem great. My marriage is awesome, my husband is loving and tells me he loves me constantly. But because i let myself be unhappy for so long, now my self esteem is close to dead and i continue to be rather unhappy (for no reason at all!). For me it was worth it to work for this kind of love. Only regret is i didn't start doing something before i got depressed. For you...again, only you can know. It would be easier to go pick some nice safe guy that dedicates his life to make you happy, that's a sure thing. But if you must have this one, then just take it slow and see how it goes. Contrary to popular belief, you don't necesarily have to jump into marriage if you love someone and you don't necesarily have to stay married if it isn't working out.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you so much Nekko. Your response really helped and has shed light on things I hadn't thought of. Quite a bit of food for thought...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

babooshka said:


> Thank you so much Nekko. Your response really helped and has shed light on things I hadn't thought of. Quite a bit of food for thought...


Heh, thank you too. You've helped me a lot as well  It's nice to have someone to talk to, even if they just give you new ways of seeing the situation or some reassuring. I love this forum because of that.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

babooshka said:


> ... I love him dearly ... he is a very difficult person and has many emotional problems ... will develop almost anything into an argument ... cold and withdrawn ... a lot of shouting and yelling ...I mean REALLY bellowing ...


Stand in front of the mirror and take a good look. _*That*_ is your problem. Your BF is the symptom.

Get over your "bad boy" addiction, learn to see men as people instead of sex objects, and find a good husband that will make you and your children happy.

Nice guys just not exciting enough for you? No "chemistry"? Fine, keep walking down the rail-road tracks. When the rails start to rumble, you can ask yourself if it was worth it.


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## Big Bear (Feb 11, 2010)

AlexNY said:


> Stand in front of the mirror and take a good look. _*That*_ is your problem. Your BF is the symptom.
> 
> Get over your "bad boy" addiction, learn to see men as people instead of sex objects, and find a good husband that will make you and your children happy.
> 
> Nice guys just not exciting enough for you? No "chemistry"? Fine, keep walking down the rail-road tracks. When the rails start to rumble, you can ask yourself if it was worth it.


May not be the most tactful way to say it, but there seems to be some validity to this post. To know the problem, I believe that the process needs to start from within and go from there.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

*Another perspective*



babooshka said:


> How is he difficult? Very argumentative and stubborn, he will develop almost anything into an argument. He can be cold and withdrawn quite often. His family relationships (with his father, mother and sister) involve a lot of shouting and yelling. And I mean REALLY bellowing. He's only done that to me once, but the therapist made a good point - how will you feel when he yells at your kids that way?
> 
> The relationship is dramatic and stormy, there are constant arguments but also many good times. A relationship with him will never be calm.


 Reminds me of the song by Five Finger Death Punch called "The Bleeding". If you haven't heard it and appreciate that genre of music, check it out. Read the lyrics if anything. You can get it all on YouTube.

Here's a story from another perspective

When I was your age I had a relationship of 7 years with a guy I had loved very much and I believed at one point he loved me the same. In this case, I was playing the part of your boyfriend. I'm the moody, argumentative one with the bad, dysfunctional home life that involved a lot of yelling and screaming while growing up. It's amazing how it all sounds so similar. 

My boyfriend and I actually got to the point where we moved in together and got engaged and planned a wedding. Six weeks before the wedding he was probably thinking a lot like you are and called it off. We did remain friends afterwards for many years. 

What happened is that we both went on to find more suitable life partners. My eventual husband was my best friend for 9 years before we married and knew me well. He took the plunge and put up with a hard life with me for many years before eventually it all worked out and we did obtain that happy, fulfilling married life that everyone wants and hopes for. 

In the end, I got the therapy, the medication and learned to the be the parent to my two kids that my parents weren't, but it took years...decades.. and to this day I salute my husband for sticking by me. I'm sure my former boyfriend would've left me eventually and our marriage would've ended in divorce had he not had the foresight to call it off beforehand and avoid a lot of grief. I always gave him credit and eventually thanked him for having the guts to so. 

Meanwhile my husband stuck by me and now we have a great marriage and wonderful kids and a lot of great times together. My husband is my best friend and I love him dearly. However, I'm still not the easiest person to live with, though I am a LOT better. My husband still has the patience of Job when it comes to dealing with me at times. Other men would get angry, impatient or embarrassed by me but my husband will look at me sadly, hug me and say "I love you.". I cannot tell you what a difference this makes but it's not easy to do. 

Point is, even if your boyfriend gets therapy there's no guarantee it will change things at all. I can count on BOTH hands how many therapists I went through before I found a good one. Not all therapists are good and "good" is relative because what is good for one person may not be good for another.

I can also count on one hand how many medications I went through. It took a 3 week stay in the hospital to sort that all out and even then it was a few years before it was worked out completely. It never really ends though because mental illness usually has no real end. I will be on medication my entire life is some respect. It varies in all people though. In any case he would need a psychiatrist, a medical doctor, to diagnose and treat a mental illness. I say this because, yes, your boyfriend could be looking at something far deeper than being moody or having anger control issues. 

Fact is, your boyfriend's problems may not be solved from a few happy talks with a therapist. Seeing a therapist should be the beginning, not the means to an end. Many so called therapists don't have a medical background and many people don't even think of or consider that option but in many case you need a two pronged form of treatment (therapy and medication) in order for anything to be effective. 

It's something your boyfriend would have to come to realize for himself and really WANT to do. It's not something you do grudgingly in the hopes that you will get something you want from someone else. It took years for me to take a look in the mirror and realize that it was ME, not the rest of the world, that had the problem. In many ways it's like being an alcoholic or drug addict. 

I won't even tell you about the toll it took on my kids or the guilt I feel because of it. To this day, with things being good, they still see some ugly, horrid fights between my husband and I. Fortunately they are fewer and far between but that monster within me still rears it's ugly head and sometimes even my well meaning husband still reacts badly and it all turns mean. 

What I'm saying is, do you have the fortitude and desire to ride this all out? My ex fiancee went on to live life as a single man for many years, got himself well set up financially (my husband and I had to declare bankruptcy 10 years ago due to the horrid spending sprees as a result of my illness) and found a nice woman to settle down with to that is supposedly very well suited for him and sweet (I haven't met her but I'm told this by a mutual friend). So yes, my husband and I are best friends and have a great life NOW but for 20 years it rather stunk for the two of us. 

So my question to you is now; Who would you rather be? My husband or my ex-fiancee? Because that is the situation you are looking at. You are the one with the long life ahead of you who can make the choice now. Is it worth it to brave the storm and hopefully have a happy, fulfilling life with a potentially unstable person or would you rather skip it and hopefully find someone who is more suitable? Do you want to look back in 20 years and say "I'm so glad I did what I did" or say "I wish I hadn't" ? What do you think you'll be thinking at age 44 if you go ahead and build a life with this man? 

I know to this day there is a part of my ex-fiancee that misses the wild, crazy and fun life he had with me ( I am not your typical 40-something woman) but would he REALLY have wanted to go through all the pain and grief my husband has? I know my husband loves me despite it all and says he never would've had it any other way and now we are having a fantastic time together and hopefully the next 20 years will be what the last 20 should've been. Do you have faith in yourself to see it through? It's all about YOU now. That's what YOU need to decide. 

Hmm..I wonder what people reading this would decide. Listen to that song "The Bleeding" or at least look up the lyrics. You'll know where I'm coming from.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

Big Bear said:


> May not be the most tactful way to say it, but there seems to be some validity to this post. To know the problem, I believe that the process needs to start from within and go from there.


I had no choice. Every post before mine was some form of hand holding "poor baby" nonsense. This woman still has time to avoid a catastrophe. She needs to wake up before it is too late.

Some problems can be "healed from within marriage", other cannot. The poster's BF exhibits clear traits of an eventual abuser. Too much "oh, poor baby, its all his fault, but I am sure we can fix it" is what will get her into an emergency clinic with a shattered jaw two years into her marriage.

Men who are moody and verbally abusive wall bangers almost always transform into face smashing trolls a few months after the rings go on. Why would people want to urge the OP to continue walking this path?

She needs to leave him ASAP, learn to support herself and live independently, learn to value companionship much more than strength, and basically grow up.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

> Get over your "bad boy" addiction, learn to see men as people instead of sex objects, and find a good husband that will make you and your children happy.


What got you so pissed?  You are in a way right to say that, and yes life would be easier if we chose who to love. But we don't. It's true that you have a good opinion, that is, if you could just walk away from the one you love now and go pick the nice guy and 'decide' to fall in love with him for a change. Sadly, you know things don't really work this way in life, love, attraction can't be programmed and if they don't exist they will wreck a marriage. 

First off you'd be surprised how many people have serious issues in our generation (i don't know how old you are), about 90% of the people in my class from primary to college came from broken homes and had all sortsa stuff going on ranging from insecurity, bad anger management, fear of comittment, fear of society etc...this due to how great our parents' generation handled marriage because they chose responsibly instead of chosing someone they loved. And most of them (except for the highly respectful ones) discovered years later how they hated eachother, the concept of an affair, a divorce, yelling around the house incessantly etc.  I also have to mention it's a blast to live in such an environment. When two people from broken homes meet for example, sometimes the relationship, despite all their issues is better than in the case of two people from intact families. Why? because knowing how their parents failed, these people want to give it their all and keep their marriage together no matter what!

So...for short, to get married to someone you have to have attraction, and love, and friendship and understanding. If the person next to you is difficult and that severely bothers you and you find it as abuse...then it's an immensely bad idea to marry them. If however, you chose them that way, love them that way, and can handle them that way, i don't see what the problem is. They'll also be great spouses sometimes because they will love you and thank you for loving them despite their weirder personalities. 

I think freak on a leash gave a perfect example in her post. With one adition. It's easier for a guy sometimes to be strong and independent than a woman. I'm not trying to say women aren't strong, but in moments like pregnancy for example when hormones go up the wall, they will at least feel like they really need someone there to support them. For short, babooshka needs to seriously, seriously consider what SHE is willing to put up with, what kind of life she wants and go from there. Eventually have a serious 'look, if we get married i'll sometimes need you to step up and take care of me without being mean or judgemental, do you think you can sometimes do that for me?' kinda talk. This might clear things up a bit more. 

@ Freak...lovely song thanks for sharing it here


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

First, thank you all for your comments. I never expected so much feedback! I will respond to each in turn so this might get a bit lengthy but hopefully not excessive.

*AlexNY*, I appreciate what you are trying to do but it really isn't what you're describing. He is argumentative, difficult and stubborn but he has never been abusive. Nor has his father or anyone in his family ever been. You have to be strong and stand up to him as he constantly wants things done his way but the flip side is I've noticed he only respects and befriends those that he isn't able to control. In the past 14 months there was _one_ horrible argument where it came to really shouting how stupid I was for something which is not something I approve of but I hardly call it a pattern. I won't stand for the shouting and name-calling that goes on in his family. (As an aside, the name-calling in his family is never about humiliating the other person, its more an expression of the person's anger. I do believe there is a distinction between calling someone "stupid" in a fight, and being truly verbally abusive where you are tearing the person's self esteem apart.) That argument and the way he handled it wasn't right but he exploded and I get the feeling most relationships have their ugly arguments from time to time, correct me if I'm wrong and this sounded excessive.

I respect men very highly and certainly do not see them as sex objects, though you are a sexy gender I'll give you that  I support myself financially almost entirely but for a bit of financial aid with university from the parents. Most of it is paid for by my part time job and student loans. I live independently and take care of all my practical needs without him, have many friends and a social life unrelated to him, though naturally he is the most major part of my social calendar.

As for companionship, we were best friends for a year and a half before we got into a relationship. He is not merely a lover, he is my best friend. *I should have clarified the good points as well:* He listens to me all the time, is extremely sensitive and reads me like an open book, even if he has had a bad day, if he sees I'm upset he'll ask me what's wrong and be there for me. There has not once been a time that I needed him and he wasn't there. Sometimes I need to make it clear I need him but when I do, he is always there for me. He is extremely affectionate and tells me he loves me all of the time. He is always telling me how amazing, wonderful and beautiful I am and truly, my self esteem has never been as high as it is with him. I wouldn't call him the "bad boy", he's pretty much a geek and I have a strong dislike for arrogant people. He is, however, difficult. I guess the best description would be like a grumpy old man set in his ways. Its just a constant struggle in that sense, but again it isn't abusive.

*Big Bear*, thanks and I agree it has to start from within. I believe I mentioned that he went to a therapist before I ever brought anything up. So he is aware of these issues and knows they need to be dealt with at least on some level, though he's not dealing with them at the present time.

*Freak on a Leash*, wow and thank you very much for your feedback! That sheds a lot of light. I love metal music so I did listen to the song as well as read the lyrics. I understand what you're saying, again as mentioned to AlexNY its not an abusive relationship but as far as the fighting and screaming the song describes.. I guess that's the outcome I'm worried about reaching. I dream of what you have described with your husband, somewhere down the line. I want to say it would be worth anything but I really don't know yet. I have never believed in taking the easy path in life which is why I don't believe in dumping a true love for a comfortable, reliable man I don't really love. At the same time, there are limits. 

I will keep your story in mind and remember it.

*Nekko*, wow I could not have said it better myself. That was great, thanks! 

You guys have given me a lot and its a process to think it all over, I don't have any immediate decisions. But I'll keep my eyes open to reality and whatever way it turns out, I thank you.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

babooshka said:


> I respect men very highly and certainly do not see them as sex objects ...


If you evaluate a persons potential as a spouse based on their reproductive fitness, you see them as a sex object.

When a man evaluates a woman's attractiveness by her youth, weight, breast size, firmness of behind, and overall attractiveness, he treats her as a sex object. Her value as a person does not matter, only her fertility and reproductive potential matter.

When a woman evaluates a man's attractiveness by his strength, confidence, success, ambition, and overall dominance, she treats him as a sex object. His value as a person does not matter, only his fitness and reproductive potential matter.



Nekko said:


> What got you so pissed?


Women have been asking men to treat them as people for 50 years. It is time to return the favour.

I kicked my "dumb booby blond bimbo" addiction before I was even old enough to date. Is it too much to ask for grown up, mature women to _*begin*_ to see the person inside of a man?

I am tired of fitness tests. How would you feel if every few days your husband pulled out a measuring tape to see if your breasts were still sufficiently large for his taste?

Gender equality has two parts. It is time for women to begin to do their part.

When I see a grown woman chasing after a "bad boy", I feel the same way you do when you see a grown man chasing after a young dumb "booby blonde". Success, wealth, power, and general Robert Redford-isness are all different versions of the same type of male sexualization and objectification.

I am a person. Not a spoon-full of genetic material.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I disagree, b/c she's evaluating his fathering, not his sexual capacity to reproduce. Closely related, but two different things. Look at the difference in your lists, Alex; one is physical traits while the other is a list of behavioral traits. While both may have some genetic basis, the latter is much more likely to be culturally shaped.

OP, I wish I had listened to all the people who said to me, "I don't know how you live with him!" My ex wasn't like yours at all--but he was a horrible, thoughtless slob who eventually made/left messes and did other things that turned my stomach. It was all so easy to overlook--I assumed he'd grow up and realize I wasn't his mommy, devoted to cleaning up after him. Big, big, big mistake. His thoughtlessness extended to all other areas of our relationship--not just shared living space. 

No one is perfect, but when someone has this many red flags, STOP and figure out what the H*LL you are doing with him. 

Good luck!


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

AlexNY said:


> If you evaluate a persons potential as a spouse based on their reproductive fitness, you see them as a sex object.
> 
> When a man evaluates a woman's attractiveness by her youth, weight, breast size, firmness of behind, and overall attractiveness, he treats her as a sex object. Her value as a person does not matter, only her fertility and reproductive potential matter.
> 
> When a woman evaluates a man's attractiveness by his strength, confidence, success, ambition, and overall dominance, she treats him as a sex object. His value as a person does not matter, only his fitness and reproductive potential matter.


I understand what you're saying but I really don't know how I gave you the impression that that's all I care about  I mentioned in my response to you a lot of his positive attributes. It is not just his strength of character that I am attracted to though that is an attraction as well. I value his opinion, as does he mine. We both consult each other for advice before making various decisions, though we don't always take each other's advice.

I am curious what you mean by value as a person. I admire many qualities in him, not least of which are his intelligence, way of analyzing, humor, sensitivity, empathy, helping out friends, how he is always there for you if you need him. It is true I am less forceful and opinionated but I certainly do not consider myself dominated. I have never budged on my values (we differ on quite a few), and there have been plenty of arguments where I did not side with his view of the matter and did what I believed to be right.

What traits are you talking about when you say "value as a person" that I am missing?


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

babooshka said:


> What traits are you talking about when you say "value as a person" that I am missing?


It is very difficult to know this. How does a man know he loves his wife as a person?

Would I still love my wife is she gained 50 pounds or had a double mastectomy? I am sure I would.

Would you still love your BF if he became needy, insecure, weak and filled with self doubt? I think not.

But only you can know for sure.

Notice that neither change actually affects the relationship in any significant way. Rather, they affect the perception of an intimate partner's worth relative to his or her peers. Not who he or she is ... but how he or she measures up to others.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

AlexNY said:


> When I see a grown woman chasing after a "bad boy", I feel the same way you do when you see a grown man chasing after a young dumb "booby blonde".
> 
> I am a person. Not a spoon-full of genetic material.


No one is saying you are. Again, I really don't understand what gave you this impression. He is not a "bad boy". Being difficult and being a "bad boy" is not the same thing. He's not some beefed up sexy dude that bosses me around and puts me on his Harley. He's skinny, if that makes any difference to you and is the kind of guy that infinitely prefers staying at home under the covers watching a movie together to going out. He very rarely works out. Highly intelligent, a gadget geek freak, he treats me with utter respect whether alone or with people. (Aside from that one nasty argument)

In my previous post I already addressed what you mentioned about a person's attributes versus a sex object's attributes so I won't repeat it in this response.



sisters359 said:


> No one is perfect, but when someone has this many red flags, STOP and figure out what the H*LL you are doing with him.


Yes, very true. Which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. It may sound stupid, but I'm with him because I love him. He fulfills me, makes me feel wonderful, is my best friend, we have a lot of fun, laughter and intimacy. As a boyfriend, he's great. Its the future I am concerned about, marriage and parenthood. That is where I will need to feel more confident in his capabilities before moving on to a more serious stage. If I won't feel reassured enough in those areas the relationship won't progress to that stage.

In regards to your experience with your ex, sorry you had to go through that  I've heard lots of stories like that which is why I don't want to move in with my BF until he's lived on his own and understands the responsibilities of living on your own without me having to tell him. I don't know that that will solve everything, and we will need to lay down base rules before such a stage but I at least hope it will help.

Thanks again for your advice and opinions.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

AlexNY said:


> It is very difficult to know this. How does a man know he loves his wife as a person?
> 
> Would I still love my wife is she gained 50 pounds or had a double mastectomy? I am sure I would.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. A change like you are describing massively affects the relationship. Your partner going from someone you can count on to someone you are constantly caring for and leaves you alone to handle life's challenges, will most certainly affect the relationship.

You are equating external physical attributes to personality traits. I know for a fact (he has told me as much) that my BF would not be attracted to me if I was weak. We all are insecure at times, I can say for both myself and my BF that we are at times needy, insecure and filled with self doubt. Sometimes we are also weak but we have each other, our friends and loved ones to help us find strength in dark times. I have given him a _lot_ of emotional support through very stressful periods and have had to be the stronger one between us at times. But you're damned right I wouldn't want a weakling that I constantly need to care for as a partner, that I can never count on and is only a drain. 

What man would want that either? Are you honestly telling me that if you married a strong woman but in the course of the marriage she became clingy and a burden, that that wouldn't turn you off? I'm not saying you'd divorce her and not try to work on things, but are you honestly saying that kind of personality change is the same as physical changes?

I am not saying that you dump a person for these changes through the course of a marriage. Things happen. People change. I accept that and don't expect the person I marry to be the same at 40. I will certainly be there for that person in their times of weakness, even if it is years. There are still plenty of traits to love. But I can't promise that after years and years of being alone in a relationship with a weak partner, I'd want to keep that up and treat it the same as some extra pounds. It really is _not_ the same thing.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

babooshka said:


> I respectfully disagree. A change like you are describing massively affects the relationship.


It is not about the relationship. It is about attraction.

Many women are needy, clingy, insecure, and filled with self-doubt. And yet most of these women are full partners that meet the everyday needs of a marriage and rise to the occasion when an extraordinary need arises. If a woman can trust her partner to put such weakness in the context of "emotional safety within marriage", why must men bottle everything inside for fear of coming off as "unreliable" ... and more importantly, "undesirable"?

A woman who is sufficiently mature to support her husband when he reacts to a challenge with weakness and doubt gives him a great gift. The gift of knowing that he is loved for who his is, not what he is. With or without her help, the man will likely overcome his fears and face his challenge. But very few men would ever consider showing such weakness to their spouse. Why? 

Because of this:



> Your partner going from someone you can count on to someone you are constantly caring for and leaves you alone to handle life's challenges, will most certainly affect the relationship.


Insecurity, doubt, and even extreme fear expressed to a spouse does not indicate decreased likelihood of eventually overcoming the challenge. It indicates trust that a partner can differentiate temporary weakness from permanent inability to overcome.

However, most women are as turned off by an insecure, needy, clingy, self doubt filled husband as a man is by an obese, disfigured, and utterly repulsive wife.

This is not an "all or nothing" situation. After a wife supports a husband emotionally or helps him overcome his fears, there are things that a smart man can do to help his wife re-connect with a desirable, dominant, masculine view of him. The typical example would be ballroom dancing, with very clear gender roles and strict adherence to the husband's lead. I am working on a sail-boat for the same reason.

By the way, I am very successful financially and professionally. I am likely to break $200,000 this year, and my ideas are expanding the options for academic and coorporate access to pharmaceutical lead development. It is all because I found a rare and unique woman who is able to support my private weakness within our marriage. Before her, I was nothing.


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

It sounds like we're saying the same thing. The only difference I see between what you are saying and what I said is the semantics. I have no problem with shows of weakness, if anything that only brings me closer to my guy. As mentioned in my previous post, I have been there through a lot and had to hold him up and support him daily through a difficult time he had. I have no problem with that and I don't consider that a weak man or person.

To me, a weak person is someone who doesn't even try to overcome their obstacles. Someone who looks to others to solve their problems for them. Not someone who needs support and help from time to time. That's just human!

I'm sorry that is the opinion you have of women and am angry at whatever ridiculous woman gave you that idea. I can't think of a single friend of mine that expects her man to be an unmoving mountain of strength. That's just ridiculous. That's marrying an image and not a person. Everyone is weak at times and needs help. That is only natural. What I was talking about was when it gets to the point where the person is paralyzed by their weakness into not doing things for themselves anymore, constantly needing and never giving.

So again, it sounds to me like we're in agreement. I would have expected most to agree with what you are describing and sincerely hope you were exposed to a skewed female population not giving a real indication as to the entire sex.

I am very glad you and your wife found each other  She sounds very special.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

AlexNY said:


> If you evaluate a persons potential as a spouse based on their reproductive fitness, you see them as a sex object.


We all unconsciously do this. Aside from the sex factor (which i personally find overrated when it comes to choosing a mate) let me tell ya that i now find it important that my spouse is fit simply because i don't want to be a widow at 40. This is more of a rational choice than anything else. 



> When a man evaluates a woman's attractiveness by her youth, weight, breast size, firmness of behind, and overall attractiveness, he treats her as a sex object. Her value as a person does not matter, only her fertility and reproductive potential matter.


Look, this is strictly my opinion, but the way i see things it's supposed to be a blend of the two qualities, attraction and companionship. That's how i chose my husband. 8 years later i'm still attracted to him and do love him (aside from my personal crisis of 'i don't trust you, what's the point of this relationship which is due to some major weirdness from my part). My husband however, chose me because he wanted companionship. 2 years later the sex sucked and it made me miserable. Do you find this fair and a good idea? 




> I kicked my "dumb booby blond bimbo" addiction before I was even old enough to date. Is it too much to ask for grown up, mature women to _*begin*_ to see the person inside of a man?


You'd be surprised to know that in the case of this particular kind of man she's describing, its hardly about what youre saying and more about what's on the inside (or so i think based on what i heard). I think it's more about good conversation, finding a mind that's equal to yours and having a person that gets you perfectly and what you're thinking. It's one thing to spend the rest of your life with a person whom you spend time looking at stuff and then you just smile at eachother each knowing what you're thinking about, and another to spend that life with someone you don't really connect with. WHo doesn't get why something is funny, why you like swiss cheese etc. I guess that's probably the most important aspect for some of us. Companionship. 




> Gender equality has two parts. It is time for women to begin to do their part.


We're trying. When you see a woman going to work, raising kids and then coming back and showing her husband how much she loves him that's a woman doing her part in gender equality. 



> When I see a grown woman chasing after a "bad boy", I feel the same way you do when you see a grown man chasing after a young dumb "booby blonde". Success, wealth, power, and general Robert Redford-isness are all different versions of the same type of male sexualization and objectification.


Look, going to say this again. For me, the woman equivalent of the booby blonde is the succesful businessman who is good with the ladies and drives a shiny car. The guy whos personality you don't really like but you go with him anyway because he's so rich and confident etc. And from what the OP is saying her man doesn't sound at all like that. In fact, i think it's his personality that she's into (except for the issue part). 

I'm not trying to make you change your opinion but i'm just clarifying some things.


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## sienna (Dec 8, 2009)

Your bf sounds exactly the same as my husband when he was just my bf. I only wish I had taken the time to think about things like you are before I married him, because I think I would have made a different choice given where I am right now. 

Those things like shutting down and closing off to emotion are not going to get any better and you may end up in a situation like the one I am in now. Where my husband bottled his feelings up for so long, he made it impossible for me to try to talk to him about anything because he would get angry and so we both shut down. Communication stopped and from an outside perspective it appeared fantastic because we never fought, but that was because I was to scared to talk to him in fear that he would get angry. He never used to get angry mind you, but now I believe I am in an emotionally abusive relationship.
On the flip side you may marry the guy and never experience any of this and go on to live a very happy life. But just be sure. Know that you cannot change anyone no matter how much you want to and putting an ultimatum like "I wont marry you unless..." will only come back to bite you later when he blames you or resents you for making him someone he isnt. 
Hope this helps


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## psnurse (Mar 16, 2011)

*Is he "a one" as there is "no one person"*

Can you ever really know whether you’ve met “the one”? Unfortunately, there isn’t a foolproof litmus test, but you can be fairly confident in your relationship if you notice these nine signs that are characteristic of a really special connection between two people.

1) You’re Not Chasing the Relationship’s Potential

Many people have romantic relationships fraught with obstacles. On a basic level, the relationship is satisfactory, but there always seems to be something standing in the way of true happiness: a stressful job, an annoying ex, a distasteful habit. Both people feel that once the obstacle is removed, they’ll be truly content together.

Unfortunately, relationships don’t work that way. Once the problem is resolved, another one pops up. And—surprise!—the couple is still unhappy. 

What people may not realize is that if they are waiting for true happiness in their relationship, then they are in the wrong relationship. Landing a better job may make life easier financially, but no amount of money will help two people who just aren’t a good fit for each other.

The truth is, a happy, well-adjusted couple doesn’t have to chase what could be or should be. A good relationship just is.


2) Who You Are Is Good Enough

You know you’ve met the one when your partner loves you for who you are. We know it sounds pretty cliché, but like all clichés, it’s true. “The One’s” admiration of you is so powerful that it’s almost as if he or she is awestruck by your very presence. He takes great pride in the choices you’ve made. She finds you smart, sexy, fun to be with, and so on. You never have to try to impress “The One” because you’ve already done that by just being you.


3) You Manage Conflict Well

Let’s say we have two couples that have been together for the same amount of time. Couple A fights regularly. Couple B has never argued in the history of their relationship. Which couple do you think a relationship counselor would say is at greater risk?

That’s right: Couple B. Upon closer examination, you’ll find that someone in the relationship—perhaps both parties—isn’t being forthcoming. Someone’s needs and wants aren’t being voiced and therefore aren’t being addressed.

Couple A, on the other hand, makes it a point to bring up topics that are bothersome or dissatisfying within the relationship. This couple regularly engages in respectful, healthy conflict—without insults or throwing things—and comes out the other side a stronger couple that gains a deeper understanding of one another with each conflict they resolve together. How much a couple fights isn’t the issue, unless they don’t fight at all. It’s how a couple manages conflicts that determines how well the relationship works.


4) The Mundane Is Suddenly Interesting

If you’re spending time with someone who really is “The One,” then you probably want to pay attention to even the smallest details of his or her life. Specifics from his work interest you, stories about his childhood hold your attention, and even old photos or home movies fascinate you.

When this happens, then this person is likely much more to you than a ship passing in the night.


5) There’s Minimal Drama—or None at All

Like we said above when we talked about conflict, even the healthiest relationships deal with their share of arguments. So when we say that there’s not a lot of drama in your relationship, we don’t mean that the two of you never fight.

But when you do, you do your best to fight fair. You admit when you’re wrong, you listen to each other, you acknowledge one another’s good points, and you apologize when you cross lines. It’s not that you have to be perfect, but if this person is “The One,” then you are at least trying to make your conflict work for your relationship rather than against it.

So if you two are dealing with constant drama, where one of you is trying to create high emotions to manipulate the other or where there’s constant turbulence without some sort of resolution, then be careful about fully committing to the relationship at this point. High drama is a definite red flag when it comes to long-term relationship success.

6) Your Friends and Family See What You See

If the people who love you the most are begging you to get away from someone, then that person’s probably not the one for you. On the other hand, if the people you trust also see what you see in this person and encourage the relationship, then that’s a good sign that you two may belong together.

Of course, sometimes your friends and family may choose someone for you whom you haven’t chosen. They may push for a relationship that you have no interest in pursuing. In these cases, it’s not always wise to follow their advice.

But if you’re falling in love with someone whom the people in your life want you to be with, then there’s a good chance that this may be the real deal.


7) You Know How to Make Them Happy

When there’s a deep connection between two people, they each know what the other wants and needs. So ask yourself this question about the person in your life: Do you know what it takes to make him or her happy? Think about minor, moment-by-moment issues, like where that person likes to eat and what kind of back rub he or she enjoys.

Additionally, think about larger matters as well: Do you know how to help her relieve stress? Can you get her to talk about her dreams and visions for the future? When she’s struggling at work or with a family issue, can you help her come through the storm and find the sun again? And, just as important, does your partner know how to do this for you as well? If so, that’s another reason to believe that you’ve found “The One.”


8) You Have the Same Life Priorities

Opposites may attract, but they rarely make for a good long-term relationship. Compatibility really is key when it comes to creating a deep and lasting connection between two people.

For example, if you want to begin preparing for the future and building toward certain life and career goals, but your partner mainly wants to make enough money so that he or she can party this weekend, then you two are probably working with fairly different priorities.

And the opposite it is true, too: If your priorities match up well, then you two have a much better chance of long-term happiness and fulfillment together.

9) You Respect the Person Deeply

Mutual respect is crucial for a healthy relationship. Without that respect, there’s simply no way to create and build a secure foundation so that you can enjoy all of the benefits of a deep and strong relationship.

But when you respect your partner and he or she respects you, the relationship has a strong chance at thriving, and all the aspects of your connection blossom. The communication improves. The commitment deepens. The trust multiplies. The satisfaction level goes through the roof.

And that all begins with a mutual respect that emerges because you like each other and because you appreciate the way you live your individual lives.

So as you try to figure out whether you’ve found “The One,” take a look at this list. If you can check off each of the above items, then you owe it to yourself to allow the relationship to become all that it can possibly be.

I hope this helps to stimulates thoughts about how you currently view this relationship now and for the future.:scratchhead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

B,
I think this is a perfect situation for change. He is still young. So you start out telling him what you told us. And then you ask him whether HE believes that his interaction style needs a lot of work. If he recognizes the problems and will see a counselor, you should give it a shot. If he thinks he is fine, or worse admits there is a problem but won't see a counselor, perhaps it is best for you to move on. 

My W has really "improved" me over the last 21 years. And she would say I have also improved her. The thing is, we both WANTED to improve and still do. So we thank each other for honest constructive feedback. 

People who are needlessly argumentative are exhausting to be with over time. And kids create a TON of opportunities to argue if that is what you are inclined to do. 

A BIG part of this is whether or not he will learn from you. After a needless argument - if you were to take him through a better way to have dealt with a situation, what happens? 



babooshka said:


> Hi, this is my first post. I hope maybe you can help me with something I'm struggling with.
> 
> I am female, 24 and have been with my boyfriend for 14 months. I love him dearly and he loves me, we are both each other's best friends. Despite all the love, I am never confident he is the person I will want to build a life with and I finally decided to talk it over with a therapist, who really put his finger on the money: he is the one I love and want, but logically in my mind I don't find him a good choice.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
I thought your W showed basically no respect for your basic needs for ummm physical intimacy/sexual connection. I hope that has changed. 

Anyone who says "before my spouse I was nothing" makes me very uncomfortable. 

Glad you are having such a good year financially.



AlexNY said:


> It is not about the relationship. It is about attraction.
> 
> Many women are needy, clingy, insecure, and filled with self-doubt. And yet most of these women are full partners that meet the everyday needs of a marriage and rise to the occasion when an extraordinary need arises. If a woman can trust her partner to put such weakness in the context of "emotional safety within marriage", why must men bottle everything inside for fear of coming off as "unreliable" ... and more importantly, "undesirable"?
> 
> ...


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## SaffronPower (Mar 6, 2011)

I know how it's difficult to hear his family say you deserve a medal for putting up with him. It makes you want to prove them wrong and defend him. 14 months is not a long time to know someone with baggage. Be cautious.

When my brother married his wife, her family made similar comments. Let's just say we thought, "Oh how could they say something so mean?" We were so naive. Too bad my brother didnt' have a Marriage Board 30 years ago.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Well, I say trust your gut.


it seems your gut was telling you to dig for more info because otherwise you wouldn't be here.

your young and have plenty of time to find the right person. at least drag out the courtship as long as you can.whats the rush?

good luck


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