# The 180 Paradox



## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Largely due to recent circumstances, I have been looking at the 180 rule and implementing it, with a mixed degree of success on my part.

Now I know that this is not about trying to win your partner back, although that could be a result of this.

If you want to know about the circumstances that gave rise to this, you can find out about it in the Private Members Section or look at my profile. If you have any comments about the situation that brought about my learning about the 180, please, post it there, not here, or at the very least, keep it to a minimum and try to stay on topic.

My concern for now is that I want some distance from her. I have been sleeping on the sofa. For the last two nights she has asked if we are sleeping together as a couple, and you can see the hurt and disappointment in her face.

I have been having trouble sleeping, though this could as be as much to do with a medical condition, poor sleeping habits and too much caffeine (I've now switched to drinking tea in the evening) as it could be to do with emotional reasons.

She ended up coming into the living room because she couldn't sleep and watched TV (waking me up in the process and being unable to get back to sleep).

Implementing the 180 is difficult, I will admit that. One impression I get, though, is that you keep at it, don't give up, and if you slip, don't let it deter you, renew your efforts to implement it.

One of the rules is "Don’t follow her/him around the house.", but what if she keeps following me around the house?

Also, one thing I find difficult is balancing "No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment." while at the same time "When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words."

I don't want to seem cold and uncaring by being "scarce or short on words", or have I totally misinterpreted this bit. She has accused me in the past of "pushing her away", this has never been my intention.

I know that she wants to be with me. She has made this quite clear. I'm not sure how to put this, but I don't want her dictating to me any more about how I should feel.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

stick with the plan. seems to be working


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Anthony Wellers said:


> Largely due to recent circumstances, I have been looking at the 180 rule and implementing it, with a mixed degree of success on my part.
> 
> Now I know that this is not about trying to win your partner back, although that could be a result of this.
> 
> ...


You know she wants to be with you, she's made it quite clear. So she's going to marriage counseling with you, right?

Make this your new theme song for dealing with your wife and stop believing what she says when her actions contradict her words.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The 180 is used to detach emotionally and slowly move on. Is that what you want? 

Are you looking to push her off and move on, or are you trying to be less dependent on her moods and more at ease with being yourself in this marriage?

There are other methods. I can't say that your marriage will last. If you want to give it a chance you might do better with these...

Hold on to Your Nuts

Boundaries in Marriage

Fall in Love, Stay in Love

The point would be to put yourself in control of yourself and then the relationship. That doesn't mean you play tit for tat, become a tyrant, or exclude her. It means that your needs are as real as her's and neither should be ignored. She seems willing enough to be with you... so become the leader here and guide this ship to that common ground where you both can find what you want in the marriage. 

Best


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Well what you're doing is correct, and seems to be working. She's asking you to sleep in the same bed and I doubt that her coming to the living room to watch tv was because she couldn't sleep. The thing you need to be careful about is pushing her away if you ultimate goal is to try and bring you back together. I did the 180 myself which was also tough for me because we have a young son. I limited all interaction with her to only things about him or our house. If she initiated any kind of conversation I would talk to her but it would be limited to answering what she was asking. I did more with my friends, my son and just myself, I would tell her what I was doing and where I was going but I wouldn't invite her. I basically let her know that I didn't need her in order to live my life the way I wanted to and be happy.

Over time I lightened up as I saw her trying to interact with me more and more. The conversations became longer but I still limited myself to what I said. If she was talking about something that happened at work or during her day or whatever, I would ask more questions about what she was talking about but I wouldn't really truly engage in the conversation. I was more doing it to show that I did still have interest in her and her life. I began asking her to join me in doing things that I knew she liked to do, if she came with me great, if not I went anyway. But the biggest thing I did was I didn't let her see how much basically cutting her out of my life actually bothered me.

I started the full 180 about 6 months ago and have gradually eased back over the past 2-3 months as she has been showing more interest in me and wanting to be with me. It has made a world of difference in our relationship and our issues. Things are actually starting to get back to normal between us. She knows that I'm not going to stand for old behavior anymore and I know that if things go bad again that I can go on living my life without her easier than I thought I could.

So keep up what you're doing but be careful that you don't push her too far out of your life. She seems to be showing signs that she wants to be part of your life, if you push her away to hard or to long, she will eventually detach from you and most likely won't come back. Good luck


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Anthony Wellers said:


> One of the rules is "Don’t follow her/him around the house.", but what if she keeps following me around the house?
> 
> Also, one thing I find difficult is balancing "No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment." while at the same time "When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words."
> 
> I don't want to seem cold and uncaring by being "scarce or short on words", or have I totally misinterpreted this bit. She has accused me in the past of "pushing her away", this has never been my intention.


You clearly have no idea why you are doing the 180. 

As mentioned the 180 is FOR YOU to detach and not be codependent on her anymore.

Whether you come off "as cold" to her or she's following you around like a puppy dog is irrelevant. 

It's about making YOU a stronger person and realizing OBJECTIVELY (free from her emotional manipulation) that you can do and deserve BETTER.



Anthony Wellers said:


> I know that she wants to be with me. She has made this quite clear. I'm not sure how to put this, but I don't want her dictating to me any more about how I should feel.


The only thing "she wants" is to plan b you. It's a ruse, don't fall for it! If you were plan a then you would not even be on TAM. Never forget that.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> You know she wants to be with you, she's made it quite clear. So she's going to marriage counseling with you, right?


No, she isn't going to MC with me and has made this quite clear also. In her mind she did nothing wrong. I'm the one with a problem (see the other thread 'Wife gets too touchy with male friends').


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Well what you're doing is correct, and seems to be working. She's asking you to sleep in the same bed and I doubt that her coming to the living room to watch tv was because she couldn't sleep. The thing you need to be careful about is pushing her away if you ultimate goal is to try and bring you back together. I did the 180 myself which was also tough for me because we have a young son. I limited all interaction with her to only things about him or our house. If she initiated any kind of conversation I would talk to her but it would be limited to answering what she was asking. I did more with my friends, my son and just myself, I would tell her what I was doing and where I was going but I wouldn't invite her. I basically let her know that I didn't need her in order to live my life the way I wanted to and be happy.
> 
> Over time I lightened up as I saw her trying to interact with me more and more. The conversations became longer but I still limited myself to what I said. If she was talking about something that happened at work or during her day or whatever, I would ask more questions about what she was talking about but I wouldn't really truly engage in the conversation. I was more doing it to show that I did still have interest in her and her life. I began asking her to join me in doing things that I knew she liked to do, if she came with me great, if not I went anyway. But the biggest thing I did was I didn't let her see how much basically cutting her out of my life actually bothered me.
> 
> ...


Sound advice. Thanks!


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Anthony Wellers said:


> No, she isn't going to MC with me and has made this quite clear also. In her mind she did nothing wrong. I'm the one with a problem (see the other thread 'Wife gets too touchy with male friends').


Read my last post to you and keep doing what you're doing. My wife too constantly felt and told me that she had done nothing wrong, even after many times of me telling her that as much as she may have not "done" anything that her behavior was still disrespectful to me and sometimes inappropriate for a married woman. Since I started the 180 six months ago and have slowly eased up on it but haven't stopped it, things have changed on her part and our relationship has improved.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Anthony Wellers said:


> No, she isn't going to MC with me and has made this quite clear also. In her mind she did nothing wrong. I'm the one with a problem (see the other thread 'Wife gets too touchy with male friends').


The thing about MC is that if both of you aren't on the same page about it, it's useless. When my situation was getting bad we went to MC, I could tell and so could the counselor, that she didn't want to be there. After the 3rd session she told me she didn't want to go anymore because she didn't believe in it. My feelings on that were that she was afraid to get called out on her BS by someone else.

I know it's hard but keep doing what you're doing.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> The thing about MC is that if both of you aren't on the same page about it, it's useless. When my situation was getting bad we went to MC, I could tell and so could the counselor, that she didn't want to be there. After the 3rd session she told me she didn't want to go anymore because she didn't believe in it. My feelings on that were that she was afraid to get called out on her BS by someone else.
> 
> I know it's hard but keep doing what you're doing.


You are dead right there. I will be going to IC tomorrow evening ("to get my head sorted out" as she seems to think). I'll give it a shot, see what happens and what the counsellor says.

I've got a good idea of how they work. They don't lecture you. They sit you down and ask you to do the talking and "how does that make you feel?". I've looked at some posts in the MC forums, and some people think they are a total waste of time.

Like I said, I'll give it a shot, even if it is only for my own peace of mind.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Anthony Wellers said:


> No, she isn't going to MC with me and has made this quite clear also. In her mind she did nothing wrong. I'm the one with a problem (see the other thread 'Wife gets too touchy with male friends').


I know. I brought that up to point out that her words and her actions are not in accord. Talk is cheap. Trust your observations of her actions, not her words.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> I know. I brought that up to point out that her words and her actions are not in accord. Talk is cheap. Trust your observations of her actions, not her words.


Indeed they are not in accord. The "I still want you" signals were just crap to get me to lower my guard. She's now making demands that I come back to bed with her, then flipped and told me to stay on the sofa until "I sort my issues out".

At this point I've damn near had enough of her BS and mind games.

Sorry to vent on here, but I'd rather do that than let her get to me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'm not familiar with your situation but that doesn't really matter because you aren't getting it in regards to what the 180 is either way.

Are you wanting to be in a relationship with this gal or are you wanting to break up and move on with your own life?

If you are wanting to break up and move on, then break up with her, move out and carry on without her.

If you are wanting to work things out then determine your boundaries and requirements for remaining with her and if she is netting those criteria and boundaries keep inching forward in your relationship.
And get professional MC if you need to.

The 180 is a means to detach yourself from a lost cause and a means to not get manipulated and exploited by the other person.

It's not a manipulation to get someone back and it is not a mind game or ploy to manipulate then into doing what you want them to.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

The 180 will never win a woman back or fix a relationship. 
At best it scares her into behaving for a bit until she's comfortable again to go back where she was. It's not fixing any of the reasons why it ended up where it was so it's not going to be a lasting change. 

Your options should be to either fix it or leave. 
There's no point to this 180 middle ground unless you're planning on leaving and want to stop trying to fix things while you wait to go.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Read my last post to you and keep doing what you're doing. My wife too constantly felt and told me that she had done nothing wrong, even after many times of me telling her that as much as she may have not "done" anything that her behavior was still disrespectful to me and sometimes inappropriate for a married woman. Since I started the 180 six months ago and have slowly eased up on it but haven't stopped it, things have changed on her part and our relationship has improved.


I wonder if she would say that your relationship has improved.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@oldshirt & @SlowlyGoingCrazy are right. Please read their posts a few times each.

If you are going to do the 180 (the on in my signature block below), then you may as well just end things now and file for divorce.

That 180 is for the purpose of separating emotionally from a cheating spouse until either they end the affair and agree to all terms for reconciliation or you give up, don't care anymore and are ready to file for divorce.

This is not how you fix a marriage.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

It's not a paradox.
It's like walking with no clear idea of your destination.
If you have nowhere to go you end up back home.
At this point you'll be 180'ing for the rest of your marriage.
Your wife is not budging and you're all I'm tired of this but I'll give it one more shot while men touch my wife and she tells me to deal with it.
Again she told you to sh*t or get off the pot, you leaped off.

Not so much leaped as had a 100 yard run up and pole vaulted over that pot.

You act hard and uncaring but come party time when dudes are giving her massages she'll see the look on your face and know everything was an act.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Anthony Wellers

I think there are a couple things that you are confusing that are making *The 180* seem or feel like a paradox to you, but it really isn't. Here's where I think the confusion lies....

First, *The 180* was originally intended for the loyal spouse in a couple who was dealing with infidelity. Usually--often--when a loyal spouse first finds out their spouse is cheating, they will cry and bet them to end it, they'll call and text endlessly saying they'll change, they'll try to "talk sense" into the disloyal spouse and keep saying "I love you" (hoping to hear it back), etc. The reason it's even called The 180 is because it is supposed to represent a 180 degree turn from what you've been doing!! A U-turn if you will. In other words "You know what you've been doing to try to win them back. It's actually doing harm. Do the exact opposite." 

Second, the goal of *The 180* is not "to fix the disloyal spouse" and make them come back to the marriage. A person has to be in a marriage because they WANT it and because they choose to be there! Nope, the goal of *The 180* is to fix the loyal spouse who is so entangled with their disloyal spouse that they are like a wimpy puppy dog following them around hoping for a crumb of love! 

Thus, in your instance, I'm not saying it's a bad idea for you to become less entangled with your wife, but I am saying that it's purpose was "what to act like when you discover your spouse has been unfaithful." I personally think that your wife has already been unfaithful, because my definition of faithful is "Giving 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to your spouse." Well...she is clearly getting a little bit of affection from "the kid" because she lets him touch her AND she does not stop him! She is clearly loyal to him, because you have expressed your displeasure with another man touching her and she stuck with HIM rather than sticking with YOU. And she went and had a vacation with him at least--thus offering HIM her companionship during that time! Those are not hers to give to someone else (her affection, loyalty and companionship)--she promised them to you at the wedding AND she probably said she would "forsake all others." Well...all others have not been forsaken! 

(Then again, I do have a very strict definition--high standard I guess). 

So, just to clarify, let's look at each one more closely:

*The 180*

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. The goal on this one is that you see your own value, and you are more valuable than to need to beg someone to love you...so don't. You were promised the whole feast (not crumbs) and you deserve the whole feast! In addition, part of the zing she gets from flirting around is that 'two men want her.' Well by introducing another man, that ends TODAY!

2. No frequent phone calls. You know how some people can not go a few minutes without texting their spouse or calling and then if they don't hear from them, they panic and start making stuff up in their head and freaking out? Don't be that person! Do the opposite. Be a little unavailable. Let her see she is losing your interest if she can't keep her legs together. 

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage. You and I both know that there were good things in the marriage-good feelings, good times, good stuff! But do you have to chase after a friend and point out all the good things you've done together to try to convince them to stay friends with you? NO! Because a friends SEES the good and remembers the good and WANTS to be there. Same for a marriage! So don't be the guy who is so desperate. Pare down the "I couldn't live without you" and replace it with the exact opposite: 'I so totally could live without you and be happy. My life is good because I choose to be happy, not necessarily because of you!"

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house. This is that puppy dog thing again. Seriously you just do not need to beg for her attention. Be your own man and have your own interests and find your own joy...with or without her. See I've been married years now, and I don't follow Dear Hubby around like I have nothing but him in my life. I have a life! I have a brain. I'm interesting all on my own! You be that way too.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future. One of the biggest mistakes a loyal spouse makes is trying to talk to their cheating spouse about the future. What the loyal wishes for is reassurance, and all they get is wishy-washiness from the brain-addled cheater! So don't beg for reassurance that they will be in your future, and if she starts trying to "talk about her future happiness" or some-such, you just tell her 'I am not ready to decide what MY future will be yet, or whether I will or will not have you in it.' The end. She's not in charge of your life--you are!

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.  Again, a common mistake loyal spouses make is to go to the in-laws and say: "Your son/daughter is cheating! Help me save the marriage!" and expecting the in-laws to lower the boom on the cheater. In real life, most of the time blood is thicker than water, and the cheater's family will say "We want him/her to be happy" or "S/He has to do what they have to do" or "We don't want to get involved!" UGH! So don't go there. Don't be that guy desperately casting about for "help" to make them see it your way. Just be responsible for your own self and your own life!

7. Don’t ask for reassurances. See #5 about reassurance. 

8. Don’t buy or give gifts. Okay--here's another one that's really common, especially if the cheater is materialistic. Some loyal spouses will frankly try to buy back their cheating spouse's love! They'll buy them that car they always wanted...or jewlery...in a sense doing the "pick me" dance as if it's a competition between the other person and the spouse! NO!! You're spouse has a moral and legal obligation to YOU, and owes nothing whatsoever to the other person, so don't be this guy either. Do the opposite. Put your funds in order so that none of your money can be used in order to fund the affair. 

9. Don’t schedule dates together. See #8 above---this isn't a competition "the one who takes me to the best place gets me!" NO!!!! Dates are for someone who is treating you with love and respect. The affair has to end and marriage issues have to be addressed before there are DATES!

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable. Love is not a feeling; love is an ACTION. Is the acting in a loving way toward you? Love is patient, kind, doesn't envy other husbands or what they have, isn't arrogant or rude, let's you have your way sometimes, isn't demanding, isn't irritable, doesn't resent, rejoices with the truth (even if it sometimes hurts), bears the hard stuff, believes the best, is hopeful, and endures. Is that how she is acting toward you...at all? If not, then she's not really being love-WORTHY is she? Now I'm not saying that someone needs to earn your love by doing XYZ...but rather for you to have a change in perspective: if someone does not act in love, why would you allow them to continue to hurt you and say you love them? Have some respect for yourself. I love my Dear Hubby DEEPLY, and he does treat me in a loving way...but if he were to stop being loving and start being hurtful, I make sure to let him know that his actions were chipping away at and depleting my love for him! 

I'm not going to go through all the rest of *The 180*, but are you sensing a trend? The trend is begin to show a backbone and have some respect for yourself in a healthy way. Right now, your roots are so tangled up with her roots that there is no separation of identity...you are one big blob of choking roots!! If she wants to be with you, her job will be to get to a place where she understands what the commitment of marriage is: namely that she is no longer free to give ANY... ANY of her affection, loyalty or companionship to anyone but you. Your job is to get to a place where your roots are in your place and are nice and deep, and to accept nothing less than 100% from your partner. 

For those who are interested, here's the rest of *The 180*:

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Thank you all for your input.

It seems that I've been getting the wrong idea about the 180 (at least partially anyway), Ideally, I would have preferred for us to fix our marriage. Unfortunately, we have totally opposite views over this and whether it is acceptable in a marriage. We are both firmly convinced that we are in the right and neither of us will budge or back down.

Some aspects of the 180 are helpful in fixing a relationship ("don't be nasty or angry" for example). Others are just counter productive, for instance don't talk about relationships, and especially "be scarce or short on words".

It's a self-protection plan and nothing more. I think I get it now.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

For fixing a relationship, I like the marriage builders methods the best. 
Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Basic ideas of meeting emotional needs, not love busting (anger, bad behaviour, etc) limiting independent behaviour, raising alone time (10-20 hours a week with no kids, no electronics), radical honesty (no passwords, no secrets)

But it does require your spouse being somewhat on board to fix things. If she's not, cut your losses and move on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anthony Wellers said:


> Thank you all for your input.
> 
> It seems that I've been getting the wrong idea about the 180 (at least partially anyway), Ideally, I would have preferred for us to fix our marriage. Unfortunately, we have totally opposite views over this and whether it is acceptable in a marriage. We are both firmly convinced that we are in the right and neither of us will budge or back down.
> 
> ...


Right... 

There are things in it that are good regardless of what's going on ("don't be nasty or angry" for example). But the rest does not help fix anything. It helps you move away from the person.

Do you think that the two of you could go to counseling and talk about all this and come to a compromise?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

With both feeling like you're right, I've read your other thread and the thing is, you both are right. 
There is no set right or wrong, its personal feelings. 
You can't make her think it's wrong anymore than she can make you think it's right. 

The only thing you need to worry about it "can I live with it" 

If it's a deal breaker, leave.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Right...
> 
> There are things in it that are good regardless of what's going on ("don't be nasty or angry" for example). But the rest does not help fix anything. It helps you move away from the person.
> 
> Do you think that the two of you could go to counseling and talk about all this and come to a compromise?


I have an appointment tonight.

She adamantly refuses to go.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> @Anthony Wellers
> 
> Thus, in your instance, I'm not saying it's a bad idea for you to become less entangled with your wife, but I am saying that it's purpose was "what to act like when you discover your spouse has been unfaithful." I personally think that your wife has already been unfaithful, because my definition of faithful is "Giving 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to your spouse." Well...she is clearly getting a little bit of affection from "the kid" because she lets him touch her AND she does not stop him! She is clearly loyal to him, because *you have expressed your displeasure with another man touching her* and she stuck with HIM rather than sticking with YOU.


Yes I have. Early on in our relationship, she tried getting my OK to "flirt about a bit, as long as it's harmless". I made it clear that I was definitely NOT okay with it. (Things like friendly hugs are a different matter entirely, they're just friendly hugs, but I'm beginning to wonder if she didn't bring this into the discussion in order to 'blur the lines').



> *And she went and had a vacation with him at least*--thus offering HIM her companionship during that time! Those are not hers to give to someone else (her affection, loyalty and companionship)--she promised them to you at the wedding AND she probably said she would "forsake all others." Well...all others have not been forsaken!


Whether or not this was her plan all along remains to be seen, or was it coincidence or opportunity (not the right words, I'm sure, but right now I can't think of anything better)? She says on the one hand that she is like an aunt to him, and in almost the same sentence that he very rarely sees him. To quote her "I probably won't see him for another ten years".

I agree entirely with everything you said. Being "unfaithful" has a very broad definition. It doesn't necessarily mean that someone has jumped into bed with another man/woman. I have to choose my words very carefully when I talk to her (and even then it doesn't do any good). Even the slightest implication that she has been "unfaithful" (even without using the word) and she flies off the handle.

I particularly like what you said about "Forsaking all others". I was thinking exactly the same thing.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If she follows you around the house, then you need to get out of the house more. 

Go to coffee shops, libraries, go on a hike, go see a show. Part of the 180 is showing yourself that you can have a life outside of life with your spouse. This should be true whether you are implementing the 180 or not. We can never forget to have our own lives. Being a complete human being on your own means you'll be a better human being for your spouse, when you ARE together.

If she can't learn to do the same (have a WHOLESOME life outside of the marriage) then she won't be on the same page as you and that unhealthy, codependent streak will remain.


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## vauxhall101 (Jul 23, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.


Lol, I wish someone would tell my wife this rule. She has gone ballistic at me on several occasions for "just not saying anything".


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I wonder if she would say that your relationship has improved.


She would never just come out and say things have improved. But it has been her who has been initiating any signs of affection. I honestly almost fell over a while back when we were out walking with our son and she reached over and took my hand as we were walking. It has been her in the mornings and when either of us get home at the end of the day, to walk over to me and give me a kiss. And it's her who rolls over on Sunday mornings while I'm still sleeping to cuddle with me. I have also started showing more and initiating showing her affection but for a long time I wouldn't, I wanted her to be the one to do it since it had been her who never did it and dismissed it when I did it. Things still aren't perfect but there has been a big improvement


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anthony,
The mechanics of the 180 are very clearly defined. They require a lot of discipline to follow, but they are not ambiguous.

The objective of using a 180 - a whole different matter. Your use (some will say misuse) of it was fairly obvious to me from the start. Your goal was to get her to stop flirting by hitting her abandonment triggers. Sleeping on the couch - in concert with the other stuff you did - clearly hit her abandonment triggers. 

Thing is - you aren't willing to leave the marriage over this. Full stop. It was obvious at the start and is now even more so. 

So - here's my friendly advice. Think about what is and isn't acceptable and act accordingly. You dislike the flirting but aren't willing to leave over it. I am not judging you - I am simply describing the situation. If she actually cheated, you likely would leave her - and that's a different story - as:
- you have no proof she is cheating
- and have taken no steps (that I am aware of) to monitor her 

Since you aren't willing to leave her over flirting - your practical moves are:
- To simply reiterate your dislike of it when she does it
- You could show her how it feels by flirting with other women in front of her - this will create conflict but likely won't stop her behavior
- To withhold love for some period of time when she does it (that is what a 180 really is) but without any overt threat that you are leaving and without overtly angry moves like couch sleeping. 

Ultimately you either trust her or you don't. If you don't - then remaining married will always be painful. If you do - then stick with the sincere message that you don't like the flirting. 







Anthony Wellers said:


> Yes I have. Early on in our relationship, she tried getting my OK to "flirt about a bit, as long as it's harmless". I made it clear that I was definitely NOT okay with it. (Things like friendly hugs are a different matter entirely, they're just friendly hugs, but I'm beginning to wonder if she didn't bring this into the discussion in order to 'blur the lines').
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> So - here's my friendly advice. Think about what is and isn't acceptable and act accordingly. You dislike the flirting but aren't willing to leave over it. I am not judging you - I am simply describing the situation. If she actually cheated, you likely would leave her - and that's a different story - as:
> - you have no proof she is cheating
> - and have taken no steps (that I am aware of) to monitor her


This is correct. I do not believe she is cheating (brain and guts are in sync on this one).



> Since you aren't willing to leave her over flirting - your practical moves are:
> - To simply reiterate your dislike of it when she does it


Yes. I need to find a way of doing this that doesn't make her fly off the handle.



> - You could show her how it feels by flirting with other women in front of her -


I'm really not into flirting with other women. If they try it with me (which is very rare), I tend to retract. Even if I did I don't think she'd be bothered, but who knows?



> *this will create conflict* but likely *won't stop her behaviour*


Not sure if this is what you intended to say. If so, it sounds counter-productive. Do you mean for some kind of self-gratification (or revenge?).



> - To withhold love for some period of time when she does it (that is what a 180 really is) but without any overt threat that you are leaving and without overtly angry moves like couch sleeping.


Yes. Bad move in hind-sight.



> Ultimately you either trust her or you don't. If you don't - then remaining married will always be painful. If you do - then stick with the sincere message that you don't like the flirting.


Trust isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned. I do trust her. What bothers me is the lack of respect she has for how I feel in these situations, and the humiliating and degrading situation she puts me in (and I am not allowed, by her, to react in any way).


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Anthony, walk freely. Eventually the eggshells will be all flattened out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anthony,

Your response was very helpful, so much so that I now have a diagnosis and a very specific set of observations. 

The people in any relationship have some sort of power dynamic. This is inherently neither good nor bad, it just 'is'. 

The way they behave within this power dynamic - whole different ballgame. 

At its simplest the power dynamic boils down to points on a spectrum:
1. You are willing (emotionally) and able (this is mostly a matter of financial self sufficiency) to leave if you feel sufficiently ill treated.
2. You are willing to assert yourself if you feel mistreated EVEN IF that means your partner threatens to leave/actually leaves you.
3. You are unwilling to leave and unwilling to do anything in response to being ill treated that increases the likelihood that your partner WILL LEAVE YOU. 

Your writing places you right in the middle of bucket 3 - a terribly weak place to be. You are going to gradually cause your partner to become more aggressive by choosing bucket 3. 

Your statement "I'm not allowed to react to xyz bad behavior" is the dead give away. 

I'm not suggesting raising your voice or being a jerk. But - some chap starts rubbing her back and she doe she the whole - oh baby that feels so good - routine and you look at him and laugh and say: Good luck with that, she's just teasing you with this whole moaning routine. Or not - and that's ok too if - well - a friendly word of warning she is more than a handful. But hey - if you think you're up to it. Followed by a shrug. 

Let her threaten, scream, cry etc. Don't respond. I mean it. Not at all. If she loves you she will look in the mirror and see her behavior as it is. If she doesn't - she will leave. 

By the way I'm in the middle of bucket (2), so this is based on 27 years of marital experience. 











Anthony Wellers said:


> This is correct. I do not believe she is cheating (brain and guts are in sync on this one).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Anthony, you need to work on silencing the little boy in you. You know him, the one that refuses intimacy with his wife as punishment because she hurt his ego. That is a type of behavior that results in her viewing you as a little boy. I'm not saying she's acting as she should, I'm saying she is going to react to the way you communicate your needs. Do not react to her as that little boy, angry, lashing out, avoiding her as a form of punishment. State your boundaries, don't argue them. Do the reads...

Best


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> I'm not suggesting raising your voice or being a jerk. But - some chap starts rubbing her back and she doe she the whole - oh baby that feels so good - routine and you look at him and laugh and say: Good luck with that, she's just teasing you with this whole moaning routine. Or not - and that's ok too if - well - a friendly word of warning she is more than a handful. But hey - if you think you're up to it. Followed by a shrug.


You couldn't clarify this a bit, could you?

I presume it was meant to be in speech marks ("Good luck with that..."). I take it this is an example of the kind of thing I should be saying.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Mr. Wellers

The 180, like any tool can be used in a variety of ways. As designed it is a great tool to help a betrayed spouse collect themselves and regain a sense of confidence to move forward. There are also parts of the 180 that can effectively be used to improve a marriage. Think more in tones of grey.

Here's a favorite of mine from another poster that was and is helpful to me.

_" What I've Learned in the Past Year - A good news story
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything! "_

Thanks Marduk..


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Idyit said:


> Mr. Wellers
> 
> The 180, like any tool can be used in a variety of ways. As designed it is a great tool to help a betrayed spouse collect themselves and regain a sense of confidence to move forward. There are also parts of the 180 that can effectively be used to improve a marriage. Think more in tones of grey.
> 
> ...


I like that. If that didn't help the OP it certainly has put things in better perspective for me. Thanks for posting it.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

m00nman said:


> I like that. If that didn't help the OP it certainly has put things in better perspective for me. Thanks for posting it.


You're welcome and glad it could help. 

Thanks again to @marduk who lived and penned it.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

m00nman said:


> I like that. If that didn't help the OP it certainly has put things in better perspective for me. Thanks for posting it.


You can find @marduk's thread along with other useful threads and resources in the men's clubhouse sticky thread... 

Best


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes - that was the subtext. 




Anthony Wellers said:


> You couldn't clarify this a bit, could you?
> 
> I presume it was meant to be in speech marks ("Good luck with that..."). I take it this is an example of the kind of thing I should be saying.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One last point and then the rest is up to you. 

Your fear that she will leave you - is driving a lot of behavior on your end that is harmful to the overall situation.




Anthony Wellers said:


> You couldn't clarify this a bit, could you?
> 
> I presume it was meant to be in speech marks ("Good luck with that..."). I take it this is an example of the kind of thing I should be saying.


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

anchorwatch said:


> Do the reads...
> 
> Best


Any recommendations?

Already reading 'Not' Just Friends'' and 'No More Mister Nice Guy' (and I can't get Alice Cooper out my head now).


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Idyit said:


> Mr. Wellers
> 
> The 180, like any tool can be used in a variety of ways. As designed it is a great tool to help a betrayed spouse collect themselves and regain a sense of confidence to move forward. There are also parts of the 180 that can effectively be used to improve a marriage. Think more in tones of grey.
> 
> ...


Had a read of this post now. It was quite long so I waited until I had time to read it properly.

Thanks.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Anthony Wellers said:


> Had a read of this post now. It was quite long so I waited until I had time to read it properly.
> 
> Thanks.


YW And I would suggest also reading "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a ****" by Mark Manson

Catchy title and liberal use of the F bomb. But really a very good book in line with NMMNG and others suggested here.


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