# I was an OM once - do you have any questions?



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS. 

I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You presume people want to ask you questions... 

You will get a lot of "Karma bus" and "You got what you deserved" posts I predict.

Is this thread meant to be therapy for you? It seems odd to pose your thread that way--"ask me anything and I'll be happy to answer."

?


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> You presume people want to ask you questions...
> 
> You will get a lot of "Karma bus" and "You got what you deserved" posts I predict.
> 
> ...


Ha, that was my first response when I read the post but didnt want to say when you get with a cheater, dont be shocked when they cheat on you.

I really dont understand the point of this thread.

What questions are you expecting?

How did it feel betraying your kids? how did it feel taking another mans wife and destroying his family?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I created this thread because I've seen a lot of people trying to understand the mindset of the OM. I've seen great insights and misunderstandings, but I can only refer to my personal experience. 

This is a support forum, and if I can any way help people in any way I won't to be able to do that. I've been on WS forums who are actively engaged in an A so I can see through their bull. But only via hindsight and as a BS myself. 

No, I didn't destroy anyone's family. She did not have kids at the time. I know myself and that's not something I would have ever gotten involved in. Especially not at the stage I was in my life.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I created this thread because I've seen a lot of people trying to understand the mindset of the OM. I've seen great insights and misunderstandings, but I can only refer to my personal experience.
> 
> This is a support forum, and if I can any way help people in any way I won't to be able to do that. I've been on WS forums who are actively engaged in an A so I can see through their bull. But only via hindsight and as a BS myself.
> 
> No, I didn't destroy anyone's family. She did not have kids at the time. I know myself and that's not something I would have ever gotten involved in. Especially not at the stage I was in my life.


If you broke up your lover's marriage then you destroyed a family, kids or not. This is an interesting look into the thinking of the OM: His lover and her husband (assuming the lover was married) did not constitute a family. Am I interpreting your situation correctly, staystrong? If so, thanks for the insight.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS.
> 
> I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


1 - Did you ever think of what would happen to you, in terms of 'retribution' if and when the husband found out about you and his wife?

2 - As an OM, did you ever get any signs or 'heads-up' on when your wife was having an affair?

(_'if they cheat with you, they'll cheat on you'_)


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

OP didn't come on here BRAGGING that he was the OM. He simply was. Now he is on the other side of that. Interesting perspective. Why not give him a chance to share without jumping all over him??


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Did you have any compassion at all for the betrayed spouse?

Has your recent experience given you an insight into what he felt?

Did you have only lies by your ex wife to go on regarding her ex?

Is she now telling lies, rewriting the marital history with you?


Most importantly would you do the same again?


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

It might help to outline both your stories (OM then BS) as a starting point for discussion. You do have a useful vantage point in that you have experienced both.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS.
> 
> I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


Did you ever look at the WAW like a cheater and a lier, someone perhaps you should not trust. Because if she's lying to her husband and cheating on him, she may be doing the same thing to you?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Philat said:


> If you broke up your lover's marriage then you destroyed a family, kids or not. This is an interesting look into the thinking of the OM: His lover and her husband (assuming the lover was married) did not constitute a family. Am I interpreting your situation correctly, staystrong? If so, thanks for the insight.


This is a good point that I was blind to at the time. They had the *potential* of becoming a family, though there were not one at the time. They were married and their extended families knew each other of course, but they did not have children. I guess I view the nuclear family as the primary definition of family.

I was part in causing the BS great pain. I am sure he intended on having children with his wife. 

If you don't know the man, it can be rather abstract. I was not a co-worker, a friend, a neighbor or anything like that. I was a random encounter. I firmly believe I was an exit affair, for reasons I haven't stated yet.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: I was an OM once - do you have any questions?*



staystrong said:


> I created this thread because I've seen a lot of people trying to understand the mindset of the OM. I've seen great insights and misunderstandings, but I can only refer to my personal experience.
> 
> This is a support forum, and if I can any way help people in any way I won't to be able to do that. I've been on WS forums who are actively engaged in an A so I can see through their bull. But only via hindsight and as a BS myself.
> 
> No, I didn't destroy anyone's family. She did not have kids at the time. I know myself and that's not something I would have ever gotten involved in. Especially not at the stage I was in my life.


A married couple is a family too.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Well, just because she didn't have kids with her first husband doesn't mean a family wasn't destroyed. Both could have had important, meaningful relationships with their respective inlaws, nephews, nieces etc. In any event a marriage was destroyed. 

I have a really good friend, while he was engaged and then married to his first wife, he was seeing another woman. Finally after only two months of marriage, he left the wife for the girlfriend. Married to wife number two for a few years, then got another girl on the side. When wife found out, she went scorched earth all over Facebook etc. all her friends came to her defense, and my friend was portrayed as the scumbag. But my argument to wife was what the heck did you expect? She had no problem breaking up his first relationship, but then loved playing the victim when the shoe was on the other foot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

staystrong said:


> This is a good point that I was blind to at the time. They had the *potential* of becoming a family, though there were not one at the time. They were married and their extended families knew each other of course, but they did not have children. I guess I view the nuclear family as the primary definition of family.


Hmmm sounds like you are minimizing a bit.

Marriage = family, no matter if you have kids or not.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

bfree said:


> A married couple is a family too.


Well his thinking that he didnt break up a family can speak for his mindset still.

Denial.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Did you ever look at the WAW like a cheater and a lier, someone perhaps you should not trust. Because if she's lying to her husband and cheating on him, she may be doing the same thing to you?


Honestly, no.

Call it ignorance or naiveté. But I had never been cheated on before nor had I cheated on anyone before. And my longest relationship had been 1.5 years. I preferred my time single but I also enjoyed the company of women. This was my 20's. I was attractive and charming enough to meet women, and I considered myself a good person overall. Honest, loyal, optimistic, and placed a high value on truth. So in part, I bought into the WS's rewriting and devaluation of her marriage (though she did not have a laundry list of flaws or anything like that). 

At the beginning, it was romantic, it was erotic, it was ego-fulfilling, but it did turn into love. Keep in mind that not all OM are the ones hitting on the married women. She pursued me, but I welcomed it. Should that have been a red flag? Yes, of course. But there are some women who are so charming and alluring, that many men will fall prey. I had good self-esteem, I was very cautious and reserved about being involved as a third party. But I did it. Because I wanted to, and I was able to preserve my self-image at the same time. That's the simple truth.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

bfree said:


> A married couple is a family too.


Absolutely, positively.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Well his thinking that he didnt break up a family can speak for his mindset still.
> 
> Denial.


He has the typical world viewpoint of someone interloping on a relationship. He didn't do anything wrong because he had no resonsibility to either party. It's a common viewpoint that gets a bunch of support among males in the world.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

And OP I'm not trying to throw stones at you. It takes two to tango. You were the single guy. The burden of morality largely falls on the married partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> This is a good point that I was blind to at the time. They had the *potential* of becoming a family, though there were not one at the time. They were married and their extended families knew each other of course, but they did not have children. I guess I view the nuclear family as the primary definition of family.
> 
> I was part in causing the BS great pain. I am sure he intended on having children with his wife.
> 
> If you don't know the man, it can be rather abstract. I was not a co-worker, a friend, a neighbor or anything like that. I was a random encounter. I firmly believe I was an exit affair, for reasons I haven't stated yet.


Staystrong, I'd be interested in hearing how your random encounter developed into what it did. The potentially random nature of infidelity is one of the things that is so frightening and painful about it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Well his thinking that he didnt break up a family can speak for his mindset still.
> 
> Denial.


Maybe. I don't know. 

A family is different than a couple. To me, a family means you have children together that you intend to raise, educate and love. A couple is not a family, IMO. This could come down to a matter of perspective, but I tend to think the common dictionary-defintion of family is that you have kids. Once you become a parent, then you have a family. Prior to that, there is the wedded couple. The intent of family, yes, but not a family. A couple which is now part of two larger families, but not yet a family themselves. Some religions may define a couple as a family, but I personally don't.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Just asking, but as the woman pursued you, and you found out she had kids, would you have broken it off or continued on? I know it was years ago so who knows but figured I'd ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

davecarter said:


> 1 - Did you ever think of what would happen to you, in terms of 'retribution' if and when the husband found out about you and his wife?
> 
> 2 - As an OM, did you ever get any signs or 'heads-up' on when your wife was having an affair?
> 
> (_'if they cheat with you, they'll cheat on you'_)


1. He was with her when we met. It was a brief getting to know one another. After she left him, there was a very brief encounter when he came to get something from her/their previous place. I was the one who gave it to him. No one words were exchanged. If anything, I felt very ****sure of myself. Obviously, he was the better man. I probably would have beat me up out of anger. He definitely deserved better than what happened to him. There was nothing wrong with him. They got together young, married years later (I don't think she really wanted to, thus she lacked courage to end it), and he had his heart torn apart. I think she lost romantic interest in him and felt she had grown into someone else. Or some self-serving excuse like that. 

2. No, I did not. Looking back, all the signs were there, though. My affair with her did not require as much secrecy as hers did. We were not in the same city or anything like that. Obviously, I knew something was wrong but thought we were going through a 'rough spot'. Once you have kids and think you are in a loving marriage, the tendency is to feel secure, right? Even despite our origins.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Let's not get into a discussion of the definition of family. Let's hear what the man has to say. I had a few of these encounters myself, not prolonged affairs, mind you, where I had any consideration of how this might affect anyone. Here is my question: The woman you had an affair with, which you considered to be an exit affair, what did you think of her? What do you think she thought of you?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Just asking, but as the woman pursued you, and you found out she had kids, would you have broken it off or continued on? I know it was years ago so who knows but figured I'd ask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would have thought she was weak and a terrible mother, though I probably would have been sympathetic to her plight. In the 'we're all human' way of looking at things. 

I would have told her to go work things out with her husband. And I would have been angry that she used me. A cheating mother does not constitute my definition of a good mother.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS.
> 
> I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


*Staystrong: I heartily commend you for what you are offering to do. To that end, here was my situation:

My rich, skanky XW, 56, got hooked on FB in 2009/2010 in our 4th/5th year of marriage, with only my fleetingly, limited, but trusting knowledge.

She made connections with two different men of her past: (A) in 2010, a divorced 55 y.o. "lardass" guy who had years hence been a co-worker and best friend of my XW's deceased first husband in the engineering business, and who was located some 3 hours from our hometown. He had retired from engineering and had become a free-lance C&W musician, and (B) her old boyfriend from high school who had gone on to become a medical practitioner in another city some 3 hours in another direction. This guy was married with 5 kids, all but one grown. She had lost all contact with both for many, many years!

Cell phone/texting revealed that she made several out of town overnight trips to see them both. Later text message records confirmed their affairs which started as EA's, escalating into PA's.

In time, both seemingly got their carnal desires met by her for a period of about a year before our separation, all transpiring without a scintilla of knowledge on my part. In the early months of 2011, she then dictated a "trial separation" which fastly escalated into a divorce filing, all while she continued to see both men simultaneously well into the divorce process.

The doctor ended up dropping her like a hot rock in the fall of 2011 after having a lengthy EA/PA with her. But the musician actually continued seeing her, but in 2013 moved away to the Pacific Northwest.

In your limited opinion, what do you think happened to effect these illicit relationships with my XW, and what do you think that these guys true mindsets were at the time that she hooked up with her? IMHO, I cannot help but believe that she was the one who initiated the contact, and they just naturally reacted to it.

And do you think that either of them really cared that she was married, knowing that she in all likelihood was coming back home to me as her husband and no doubt occasionally performing her wifely sexual duties? Does knowing that she's intimate with her husband a detractor to the OM in any way? Or is she just "a loose piece of meat" to get off to without the benefit of any real emotional attachment?

Additionally, when and if the affair is "outed," do you think that disclosure to either the OM's family/wife and the WS's family serves any viable purpose?

Many thanks for your thoughtful analysis!*


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Interesting idea for a thread SS. I hope you get what you want out of this. 

Perhaps another good idea for a thread could be titled, "If I were you W/H's OM/OW, what would you want to ask me?"

You weren't married with children. Your partner had no children. That takes 90% of my questions off the table.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

FFS people, there are TONS of former waywards, affair partners, OM, OW, cheaters, however you choose to refer to them, on the site. 

Some are great contributors, but they don't openly post about their infidelity. As is obvious why.

You have a question, challenging or otherwise for the OP, then ask. 

If you're looking for something else I suggest you don't post.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Let's not get into a discussion of the definition of family. Let's hear what the man has to say. I had a few of these encounters myself, not prolonged affairs, mind you, where I had any consideration of how this might affect anyone. Here is my question: The woman you had an affair with, which you considered to be an exit affair, what did you think of her? What do you think she thought of you?


I though she was captivating, self-assured, sexually open, interesting, stylish, humorous, vulnerable in an endearing way, sensitive, intuitive, gregarious, fun, feminine, loving, talented and many other things. To be honest, I never thought she was as principled as I was. I know that sounds ironic, but betraying someone is much different than being part of the betrayal. 

I think she saw me as independent, virile, exciting, adventurous, intelligent, self-directed, passionate, intense, kind, noble, empathic and full of vision and life. 

The kinds of things that stir a man and woman to be attracted to one another in any other given scenario.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Maybe. I don't know.
> 
> A family is different than a couple. To me, a family means you have children together that you intend to raise, educate and love. A couple is not a family, IMO. This could come down to a matter of perspective, but I tend to think the common dictionary-defintion of family is that you have kids. Once you become a parent, then you have a family. Prior to that, there is the wedded couple. The intent of family, yes, but not a family. A couple which is now part of two larger families, but not yet a family themselves. Some religions may define a couple as a family, but I personally don't.


The point isn't the definition per se, but if and how your idea of what is a family influenced your thinking as the OM. Sounded like you were saying "I didn't break up a family, so it could have been worse." Giving us insight into the mind of the OM, which is what you offered. I'll guarantee you, though, that the BH regarded his family as shattered.

No need to belabor this further, I think. Thanks for sharing your experience, staystrong.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

At what point do you think you could have been turned away from this married woman?
What kinds of things would have turned you away from her?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I though she was captivating, self-assured, sexually open, interesting, stylish, humorous, vulnerable in an endearing way, sensitive, intuitive, gregarious, fun, feminine, loving, talented and many other things. To be honest, I never thought she was as principled as I was. I know that sounds ironic, but betraying someone is much different than being part of the betrayal.
> 
> I think she saw me as independent, virile, exciting, adventurous, intelligent, self-directed, passionate, intense, kind, noble, empathic and full of vision and life.
> 
> The kinds of things that stir a man and woman to be attracted to one another in any other given scenario.


Is that the way you think of it today? And have you been married? When I was in my teens and 20s and before even thinking about marriage or what it implied, I was OM on a couple of occasions. Mostly I did not know or care about the marital situation of whoever was trying to bring me to bed and learned only after.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Philat said:


> Staystrong, I'd be interested in hearing how your random encounter developed into what it did. The potentially random nature of infidelity is one of the things that is so frightening and painful about it.


Ooph. Long story. Might have to think of a summary for that one. 

We 'got together' quickly after meeting. No sex. At the time, I thought it was the most erotic night of my life. Looking back, I feel shame. We exchanged email addresses, and from there .. well, you know how it goes. 

To be honest, I kind of had her at an arm's length because I was traveling. I even had brief encounters with other women. It was a liberating trip for me. I'm not a player but I do like seduction. With her, there was something there from the beginning. An intensity which is hard to describe. And I wouldn't write it off as horniness or the sneakiness or anything like that. There was definitely something there, or else we would not have gone to such lengths to be together. 

BUT .. we never really reconciled how we met. What it meant, and what it really meant for us as individuals and as a couple. We talked deeply about things, but I don't think deeply enough about this. I think we were just so confident in our connection that all of it seemed to 'happen for a reason'. I hate to say that, I know how it sounds.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Ooph. Long story. Might have to think of a summary for that one.
> 
> We 'got together' quickly after meeting. No sex. At the time, I thought it was the most erotic night of my life. Looking back, I feel shame. We exchanged email addresses, and from there .. well, you know how it goes.
> 
> ...


So you kind of fell for this girl and she for you. Is that right?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Is that the way you think of it today? And have you been married? When I was in my teens and 20s and before even thinking about marriage or what it implied, I was OM on a couple of occasions. Mostly I did not know or care about the marital situation of whoever was trying to bring me to bed and learned only after.


It's hard to say what I think. It's a paradox, because as you know, being betrayed taints the memories and you start to re-analyze the relationship in a different light. 

Did she have those qualities? Yes. She still does. And I see her in a completely different light, in part due to the dark wisdom gained from TAM and other places. I try to keep it balanced. I'm a bit different now after my experience as a BS. I think of myself differently.

Did I care? Yes, I was mature enough to care. But I didn't KNOW him, and I relied on her word. No surprise there, right? Hers really was an exit affair. She wanted out. She had already had a PA with her physical therapist. She was not attracted to her husband anymore. Emotionally or physically. 

We were together 8 years, married 6.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> So you kind of fell for this girl and she for you. Is that right?


Yep.

To be honest, I don't think I could have been an OM like my OM was. The pursuit of a married woman with kids, the sneaking around, the lying to my own spouse. That's not me. 

But I'm sure he "fell" for her, too. She made him feel special, right? And vice versa. But their affair was much more sordid, IMO. That could be denial, but that's my stance on it.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's hard to say what I think. It's a paradox, because as you know, being betrayed taints the memories and you start to re-analyze the relationship in a different light.
> 
> Did she have those qualities? Yes. She still does. And I see her in a completely different light, in part due to the dark wisdom gained from TAM and other places. I try to keep it balanced. I'm a bit different now after my experience as a BS. I think of myself differently.
> 
> ...


You married the married woman you had an affair with? And when you started with her and she was married she was already having sex with other men as qualified and alluring as her PA? Is that what you wrote or did I get that wrong?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> It's hard to say what I think. It's a paradox, because as you know, being betrayed taints the memories and you start to re-analyze the relationship in a different light.
> 
> Did she have those qualities? Yes. She still does. And I see her in a completely different light, in part due to the dark wisdom gained from TAM and other places. I try to keep it balanced. I'm a bit different now after my experience as a BS. I think of myself differently.
> 
> ...


Once she cheated on him, she literally "killed" him in her mind. So it's no doubt she wasn't attracted to him anymore, that's how it goes down.

If they don't "kill" them it will bother them...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> At what point do you think you could have been turned away from this married woman?
> What kinds of things would have turned you away from her?


Knowing her husband as a person. The moral aspect of hurting another person. 

Getting to know her flaws, issues, or secretive manner better. Maybe. She has so many redeeming qualities, though, that they are easy to overlook when falling in love. There were no major 'red flags' in terms of our connection. There was enough overlap and mutual attraction to override those things. Were we a perfect match? No. Would we have gotten together if we were both single? Yes, I think so. 

Obviously, the ability to deceive someone who loves you at the level that she did is the major red flag. I can only see that in hindsight as a BS. I didn't understand the depth of the lies, deception and disrespect. Again, my ignorance or my willingness to put blinders on for sex, love, excitement and the promise of a future together.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

staystrong said:


> I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS.
> 
> I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


Why? They say the way you enter a relationship is the way you will leave it was you expecting that? What does it take for the woman you where with for you to believe anything she said knowing that she couldn't hold true to the vows she made to him. You thought she would keep true to them with you? Was there a part of you that felt bad about the fact of tearing a family part?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> You married the married woman you had an affair with? And when you started with her and she was married she was already having sex with other men as qualified and alluring as her PA? Is that what you wrote or did I get that wrong?


Her PA was in the past. It was not current. 

This was a "free spirit" stage of my life. I wasn't judging her for her lack of love for her husband. 

More relevant, at the time I tended to think that people only had affair or got divorced if there was something really wrong with the marriage. Abuse, neglect or a broken bond. Some people are able to spin a good story about how the love went south. Someone more grounded in relationships than I was at the time would have said, "Well, why didn't you divorce him?". Of course, life is not that simple, hence affairs. People feel conflicted and they tend to act in their own interests if they lack core principles or guidance.

Relevant side note: Her father left her mom for another woman. My ex was 5 years old at the time. FOO issues. I was sympathetic, I suppose.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Knowing her husband as a person. The moral aspect of hurting another person.
> 
> Getting to know her flaws, issues, or secretive manner better. Maybe. She has so many redeeming qualities, though, that they are easy to overlook when falling in love. There were no major 'red flags' in terms of our connection. There was enough overlap and mutual attraction to override those things. Were we a perfect match? No. Would we have gotten together if we were both single? Yes, I think so.
> 
> Obviously, the ability to deceive someone who loves you at the level that she did is the major red flag. I can only see that in hindsight as a BS. I didn't understand the depth of the lies, deception and disrespect. Again, my ignorance or my willingness to put blinders on for sex, love, excitement and the promise of a future together.


I kinda did the OM thing when I was younger. It wasn't intentional, it was an very attractive intelligent babe interested in me. I didn't find out till later she was married. She also had 3 or 4 other OM's. One of them a famous basketball player.

She was living kind of married single, so it was more about the fun.

I never thought I was doing nothing wrong, and definately when I found out about other OM's I definately did not put it only on me.

But I been in the husbands shoes before and it's pure hell. I wouldn't want to intentionally do this to someone and at my current level of maturity I would not seek out or desire someone who is in a relationship, unless it was a known open relationship and even then I would think it's too much complications and potential trouble.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

standinginthegap said:


> Why? They say the way you enter a relationship is the way you will leave it was you expecting that? What does it take for the woman you where with for you to believe anything she said knowing that she couldn't hold true to the vows she made to him. You thought she would keep true to them with you? Was there a part of you that felt bad about the fact of tearing a family part?


I said previously that I don't consider a couple to be a family. 

It's part of the power of romantic love and the self-deception. The fog is strong. 

In terms of believing her, as I said earlier, I had no experience in infidelity either way. This was all new to me. And it 'felt right' even if I knew it was not conventionally right. I'm just being honest here. 

There are examples of people who left for someone else and remain married decades later. Her father is an example, so I guess that served as her/my model even if I did not know him at the time. Truth be told, her father's decision F'ed my ex in many many ways that I think she doesn't even understand.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Her PA was in the past. It was not current.
> 
> This was a "free spirit" stage of my life. I wasn't judging her for her lack of love for her husband.
> 
> ...


Is that right? You married the woman you had an affair with while she was married and sleeping with other men as well?

I am sorry. I suppose we all expect that we are different and that the rules somehow do not apply to us. I am sorry.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Knowing her husband as a person. The moral aspect of hurting another person.
> 
> Getting to know her flaws, issues, or secretive manner better. Maybe. She has so many redeeming qualities, though, that they are easy to overlook when falling in love. There were no major 'red flags' in terms of our connection. There was enough overlap and mutual attraction to override those things. Were we a perfect match? No. Would we have gotten together if we were both single? Yes, I think so.
> 
> Obviously, the ability to deceive someone who loves you at the level that she did is the major red flag. I can only see that in hindsight as a BS. I didn't understand the depth of the lies, deception and disrespect. Again, my ignorance or my willingness to put blinders on for sex, love, excitement and the promise of a future together.


I do realise she had you believe she cheated on her husband before you. Do you think there was ever a possibility you were actually the first AP?

I doubt you would be able to be friends with the husband and you were the second AP. So, I want to ask if you can think back to before you slept with her. What was your state of mind at the time? Did you have other girlfriends? Did you find them less mature? 

You mentioned she appeared to you, and I'm paraphrasing, to be a bit more open to sex. Seems like you thought she was more willing to do things other women would not, who you dated previously. Is that a fair assessment?

What made you believe she was more open and less desperate?

Could you have broken off the relationship prior to the physical affair? I know this is a tough question. How early in the relationship would you had to have been made aware that the husband was a decent person? I mean, this is tough to know how to word. It's seems like you had little respect for him due to your lack of friendship with him. 

What other things can you think of that would have been appropriate for a husband to do that would have gotten you to look at the red flags before it went physical? Is there anything that would have gotten you out of the fog?

I do realise she pursued you, to an extent.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I said previously that I don't consider a couple to be a family.
> 
> It's part of the power of romantic love and the self-deception. The fog is strong.
> 
> ...


There are some who do this, yes and married decades later. The reality is it is a very high rate of failure. Like 9 out of 10, much more than the straight on married without cheating scenario.

It's about how you got together and the spirits you had at the time.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I wish I could say I feel nothing for you and your plight. I wish I could say that you got what you deserved. But having been the BS myself I cannot say that. Nobody deserves that level of pain and anguish. I am sorry for your situation.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Is that right? You married the woman you had an affair with while she was married and sleeping with other men as well?
> 
> I am sorry. I suppose we all expect that we are different and that the rules somehow do not apply to us. I am sorry.


Not other *men*. Only one man that I know of. After eight years of being with the same guy since she was 17. 

She made bad choices. I was a part of that. I am not saying it's right. 

Keep in mind that I was a single guy with no married friends. My brother was not married. I knew no married people, either. It wasn't a question of 'rules' at that time, it was more that there were no real rules beyond there was no context for them. No kids involved. From one perspective, she had already broken her sacrament with him. So I, naively, saw her as a woman trapped in something she did not want to be in any longer but did not know how to get out of. Is that a lack of principle? I don't know. I suppose it was more a lack of worldly knowledge. 

As a side note: I met another married woman during my travels. She was alone in a foreign country as a grad student. She invited me to dinner. We conversed, we flirted a bit. I did not make a move on her, though if she had made a move on me, I would have gone with it. I saw a picture of her husband on the wall. It made me feel uneasy yet at the same time it stroked my ego to think I could be with a married woman. She eventually told me, "I think you're attractive and I enjoy your company. But I can't do this. I guess I just wanted some attention, to feel wanted, and I am lonely." I told her I had a nice time too and wished her well in her studies and her marriage. 

This is what it often comes down to for some people..

If it's a friend who is thinking unfaithful thoughts, you tell them to get straight with themselves and their spouse. 

If it's an attractive member of the opposite sex telling you this, you start to think more of yourself than of how to really help the other person. 

Part of this is maturity and morals. But two people alone provokes temptation. In my 20's, I was more apt to do be tempted. 

I would not have betrayed my wife, though. For me, that would be like betraying my children. I was presented opportunities but did not follow up on them. Flattering? Yes. Did I have sexual thoughts about those women? Yes. But it was simultaneously repulsive. That's cheating in your heart, but it's also our biology. But I would go home and see the woman I loved and those thoughts would disappear.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Not other *men*. Only one man that I know of. After eight years of being with the same guy since she was 17.
> 
> She made bad choices. I was a part of that. I am not saying it's right.
> 
> ...


I did not intend to come across as judgmental. I was just trying to understand your situation. I wrote above that we would all like to think that we are singular and the rules that apply generally do not apply to us. From what I have read, your wife cheated on her prior husband with you and at least one other man. And you, being pure of heart, believed that it was because there was no love in her marriage and she was just following her heart. It's a nice story. The check out lines are full of them. But character is fairly immutable.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> There are some who do this, yes and married decades later. The reality is it is a very high rate of failure. Like 9 out of 10, much more than the straight on married without cheating scenario.
> 
> It's about how you got together and the spirits you had at the time.


No one knows the true statistics. I tend to think the failure rate is higher than the regular failure rate of marriages. 

Moreover, the relationship is tainted somehow. The foundation is not strong, and there is guilt and a lack of trust in it. I did trust my ex, though, that is the funny thing. Having a close-knit family, good love-making, being best friends and building a life together tends to cement the trust. It wasn't as if we got together and split up six months or two years later. Was it destined to fail? I don't think anyone can say that. Is cheating wrong? Absolutely. I will steer any one I know away from it. I'm not loosey-goosey about it .. it's highly destructive and both the WS and BS are injured. As well as many other people.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I did not intend to come across as judgmental. I was just trying to understand your situation. I wrote above that we would all like to think that we are singular and the rules that apply generally do not apply to us. From what I have read, your wife cheated on her prior husband with you and at least one other man. And you, being pure of heart, believed that it was because there was no love in her marriage and she was just following her heart. It's a nice story. The check out lines are full of them. But character is fairly immutable.


I wasn't pure of heart, I will readily admit that. 

Yes, there is the question of character. Sex and love are two of our most basic drives, very powerful ones at that. I think that's in part why you see "good people" have a fall from grace. You can be full of character in almost areas of your life, but find yourself bending when it comes to love. That's why boards like this are good. To have a chorus of conscience.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I wasn't pure of heart, I will readily admit that.
> 
> Yes, there is the question of character. Sex and love are two of our most basic drives, very powerful ones at that. I think that's in part why you see "good people" have a fall from grace. You can be full of character in almost areas of your life, but find yourself bending when it comes to love. That's why boards like this are good. To have a chorus of conscience.


OK. For what it is worth, my view is that character is not situational.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I believe, if you truly want to help a BS, who never wants to experience that again, it's important to know what he can do to turn his wife away from the AP. That is why I ask these questions.

It is deeply reflective to consider what might have stopped you. I know it's not easy, but it's important. Husbands realise, too late, that they are in trouble. They don't usually, "get it", until it's gone too far and they are harmed immeasurably. It's much easier to deal with marital issues before a PA than after. 

So, basically, you would have had to have some respectful feelings for this woman to keep you from going physical? You looked at her as a prize that took hard work to attain and once you had sex with her, the brain chemicals took it from there?

I'm getting the impression there is nothing short of the woman telling you, "no", or maybe not giving signals, that would have stopped you. 

I don't think it's very likely a husband would have the ability to calm himself enough to respect an AP enough to make friends. I guess it's possible. At some point, though, that would cause the husband to lose all respect for his wife. He would get to know that you were always available and just waiting for the green light from his wife. 

What could the husband have done to show you she is a respectable woman and not an object to win and possess for your pleasure? 

Send you pictures of them going out and having fun? Could he have sent you copies of love letters and cards that they shared? Could he have written a heartfelt letter? I think that makes him look weak, but I think, in many cases, a husband who loves his wife would do almost anything to turn her away from the AP. 

I ask these tough questions, not to bring you down, but for you to honestly help a husband who loves his wife, try to keep the EA from going to PA. I think, once the fog takes over, there is not turning back. You have even stated that you were deep in the fog and married the woman.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> OK. For what it is worth, my view is that character is not situational.


I agree. I demonstrated a lack of character. 

There have been a couple of other times in my life when I got close to someone who was involved, realized I was in an EA (didn't know there was a term then), and broke it off. I did not in this other instance.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Well you missed my other questions.

What about these three?

What would you say to the OM if you could sit across the table from him?

What would you say to the BS if you were sat across the table from him?


Did you ever hear what became of the BS? I know you have been through a lot from reading your threads but it would be karma like and rather ironic if he moved on and has had a good life and started a family with a good faithful woman.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I believe, if you truly want to help a BS, who never wants to experience that again, it's important to know what he can do to turn his wife away from the AP. That is why I ask these questions.
> 
> It is deeply reflective to consider what might have stopped you. I know it's not easy, but it's important. Husbands realise, too late, that they are in trouble. They don't usually, "get it", until it's gone too far and they are harmed immeasurably. It's much easier to deal with marital issues before a PA than after.
> 
> ...


This is a great post. 

It's hard to be hypothetical about it, I'm afraid. TBH, if I had been confronted by the husband early on (e.g. he had found our email exchanges) and he had expressed to me he loved his wife and I was interfering with their marriage, I would have broken it off. Keep in mind that ours was an immediate connection, not a slow isolation-escalation-instigation build up. Even if I knew how she felt about him (the lack of love), I would have felt honor bound to end it. 

I showed my X's OM pictures of our children. I told him to go back to his wife and leave our family alone. But, if you've read enough threads, this doesn't work because while the AP may feel some guilt, ultimately they are interested in maintaining the A. My WS had told him so many things about us, he was probably inclined to believe he was rescuing her. Much like I had believed about our A. However, extremely different circumstances. 

Don't compete with AP, don't validate them as a person. Not if you want to maintain a good sense of reality and consider R. Try not to denigrate them either if you want to R, at least not to the extent it pushes your WS away. Yes, expose them. Shame them, humiliate them, ruin them if you want. They deserve it. I deserved to be shamed as the former OM. That's the only way someone learns, or otherwise they will continue their self-gratification. Yes, they are people, they're not always evil, but they are interfering with your marriage. The real issue is between the husband and wife, though the A needs to be destroyed as well as possible. There's a window of opportunity in which to do that and strategies to use. The best strategy is to focus on yourself, but this is easy to say and often hard to do when you're on the roller coaster.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Well you missed my other questions.
> 
> What about these three?
> 
> ...


Take my threads with a grain of salt. I lurked on TAM when the A was confessed and I regret not starting my own thread. It would have been helpful. Lurkers, start your own thread now!

I was suffering from PTSD (it's real, don't get me started) as a result of the affair and separation, so you will see some very emotionally charged posts. 

What would I say to the OM? I would have said different things at different times. I have said things to him. Right now, I would say nothing to him. Too much time has passed. I do think their relationship is built on quicksand. They both think they were being honest with each other, but they were fooling themselves (I saw some of the texts). But I am sure he had ulterior motives in the beginning. I think he saw vulnerability and opportunity and he tested that. And she was probably flattered and infatuated. 

To the BS? What can I say.. an apology probably means nothing to him. He's in a foreign country now and married. I hope he's happier than he's ever been and that he did not suffer too much. That he's able to trust again, that his wife will be faithful, that he'll have kids and be happy. I would be fine if he got satisfaction out of the demise of me and his ex. Better yet, I hope he would be so moved on that he didn't care.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I would also answer any lingering question he had, if he still has any. 

Man to man, I would apologize to him and let him know that I know how much I wronged him. But I won't reach out to him, that would be self-serving.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Well you missed my other questions.
> 
> What about these three?
> 
> ...


Its funny. I was about to address this exact thing.

SS, from what you describe I could very well have been your exW's first husband. My ex and I married very young. Obviously a mistake in hindsight. I found out she was cheating with more than one OM. The day we signed the divorce paperwork she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to cheat. After that I sank into a deep depression. I wasn't eating, wouldn't leave my house, just sat in the dark and watched TV a lot. Some friends tried to pull me out of it by taking me out drinking. Well it worked. I got drunk and for a brief time I didn't think about my ex or what she'd done. That led to more drinking. I would go out to bars, get drunk and get into fights. I got into drugs as well. It wasn't until years later that I realized I was trying to die. I would also pick up women, take them home and bed them. I guess I was what you called at that time a ladies man, what you'd now refer to as a player. I almost never slept alone if I didn't want to. But my "lifestyle" eventually took its toll. I became unemployed and pretty much homeless. I tried to commit suicide but I was too much of a coward. Finally I couldn't sink any lower. I wandered into a church because I knew I was taking my last breaths on earth. I knew I'd try to kill myself again and would probably succeed. I knew nobody cared if I lived or died. I was directed into a men's group where I met my best friend and mentor.

Maybe you don't consider a couple a family. I did and when my family was destroyed it destroyed me. I'm sure you have never thought of what happened to the BS from your first wife's marriage. Or maybe you wife told you some lie to help you sleep at night. I never personally knew the OM that destroyed my life and almost sent me down a path of no recovery. Only through God's grace and the help of very good friends did I manage to turn things around. So I could have very well been the man that you help destroy. And I would be interested in hearing what you might have to say to that man now that you have experienced just a small taste of what he and I had to endure.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

These might sound like strange questions but at various times I've heard OM's bragging about things like this and I don't know how much of it is locker room bravado among young men and how much of it might be real.

Did "doing" someone else's wife make you feel more powerful and therefore it added a more exciting element to it (even if you may have known it was wrong or felt bad about it)? Did you like to do sex acts to her that you thought would humiliate HIM even more?

Because of her being married to another guy, did you ever think differently about sex acts as you did them with her? For example, were you more dominant with her because she was also with another guy and you wanted to make sure that she was "your bi___" and not his? Sorry for being crude, didn't know how else to say it.

Did the fact that she was a cheater "cheapen" her sexually in your eyes or make you have less respect for her in a sexual sense? Did this impact how you felt when you had sex with her or what you wanted to do to her.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Take my threads with a grain of salt. I lurked on TAM when the A was confessed and I regret not starting my own thread. It would have been helpful. Lurkers, start your own thread now!
> 
> I was suffering from PTSD (it's real, don't get me started) as a result of the affair and separation, so you will see some very emotionally charged posts.
> 
> ...


Nice post and reply.

And for what it's worth I hope you too have/can put this all behind you and eventually find happiness with a good woman at your side.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

You married a woman who was unfaithful in another marriage. Did you think your marriage to her would be different? I expect you did. Have you thought about why you thought that? Do you think her first husband also expected that she would be faithful to the marriage?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> You married a woman who was unfaithful in another marriage. Did you think your marriage to her would be different? I expect you did. Have you thought about why you thought that? Do you think her first husband also expected that she would be faithful to the marriage?


It's a typical outcome. At the ages and mindset that you do these things at, you don't understand that what she did to him is what she can do to you.

After you been through these situations and educated by TAM, you understand how it all tends to work and stay out of messy situations.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

HB, this is the ultimate question for anyone who gets into a relationship which started as an affair. 

The answer to your question, is No I did not. I trusted her. Affairs are a place of great openness as well as great deception. 

I even asked my ex at one point, "How can you trust each other?". She said they talk about that. But it's not like they are going into deep therapy right now? These are ostensibly good at the moment .. but what about 5, 10, 15 years from now. Things are the kinds of questions you tend to avoid asking yourself in any meaningful way when things are going swimmingly. 

She had a baby early with me (not planned together), she's having one early with him (I'm assuming planned together). There's not a lot of future thought involved, just optimism and living in the feeling of the day. And we're not talking about unintelligent people here.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

bfree said:


> Its funny. I was about to address this exact thing.
> 
> SS, from what you describe I could very well have been your exW's first husband. My ex and I married very young. Obviously a mistake in hindsight. I found out she was cheating with more than one OM. The day we signed the divorce paperwork she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to cheat. After that I sank into a deep depression. I wasn't eating, wouldn't leave my house, just sat in the dark and watched TV a lot. Some friends tried to pull me out of it by taking me out drinking. Well it worked. I got drunk and for a brief time I didn't think about my ex or what she'd done. That led to more drinking. I would go out to bars, get drunk and get into fights. I got into drugs as well. It wasn't until years later that I realized I was trying to die. I would also pick up women, take them home and bed them. I guess I was what you called at that time a ladies man, what you'd now refer to as a player. I almost never slept alone if I didn't want to. But my "lifestyle" eventually took its toll. I became unemployed and pretty much homeless. I tried to commit suicide but I was too much of a coward. Finally I couldn't sink any lower. I wandered into a church because I knew I was taking my last breaths on earth. I knew I'd try to kill myself again and would probably succeed. I knew nobody cared if I lived or died. I was directed into a men's group where I met my best friend and mentor.
> 
> Maybe you don't consider a couple a family. I did and when my family was destroyed it destroyed me. I'm sure you have never thought of what happened to the BS from your first wife's marriage. Or maybe you wife told you some lie to help you sleep at night. I never personally knew the OM that destroyed my life and almost sent me down a path of no recovery. Only through God's grace and the help of very good friends did I manage to turn things around. So I could have very well been the man that you help destroy. And I would be interested in hearing what you might have to say to that man now that you have experienced just a small taste of what he and I had to endure.


I think your blame is misplaced.

For some circumstances I could see your point. Maybe a wife is tempted by some guy who pursues her. That she eventually caves and has an affair.

Your wife had multiple affairs. I don't think your issue should be with the OMen. It should be on your ex-wife.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I was an OM who married his lover (I was single). We had two kids together. After 8 years of being together, she cheated and left me for someone else. I became the BS.
> 
> I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the OM mindset as I experienced it.


I have one question. Seeing as how you knew she was a cheater, did her cheating on you surprise you in the least?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> It's a typical outcome. At the ages and mindset that you do these things at, you don't understand that what she did to him is what she can do to you.
> 
> After you been through these situations and educated by TAM, you understand how it all tends to work and stay out of messy situations.


Well, it was late 20's so you'd think I would've known better. I suppose I was to into myself and my own trajectory at the time. 

TAM is an eye-opener no doubt. Having been on the other side of the fence as an OM, I can see all of the entitlement and ego-stroking and self-deception that takes place. It's a wonderful drug, but it's not rooted in truth. 

As a previous poster pointed out, it's not like she was sending me recent photos of good times together. No, I was getting nudes and sexts. Of course. I was deceived about what they were, what he meant to her, what their bond was. 

It's not all about sex, though. Even for men. There's a huge emotional element. The EA aspect is stronger than the PA aspect. That's what determines the danger level for any 'mature' adult. It's one thing if a WH picks up a ****tail waitress on a business trip; it's entirely another if he is having 4 hour conversations with her after the trip as ended. Both are betrayals, just matters of degree.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think your blame is misplaced.
> 
> For some circumstances I could see your point. Maybe a wife is tempted by some guy who pursues her. That she eventually caves and has an affair.
> 
> Your wife had multiple affairs. I don't think your issue should be with the OMen. It should be on your ex-wife.


Oh you're right! And I had trust issues for many years courtesy of my exW. And if she were here I would no doubt be addressing her. But the men she was with played a role as well. Since SS is a former OM and not my exW I thought I'd address him. I never got a chance to address the men my wife was involved with. I don't need to tell SS the damage betrayal causes since he is suffering now as a result of his wife's betrayal. In that we are (unfortunately) kindred spirits now.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> HB, this is the ultimate question for anyone who gets into a relationship which started as an affair.
> 
> The answer to your question, is No I did not. I trusted her. Affairs are a place of great openness as well as great deception.
> 
> ...


Sorry. Sucks to be here.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think your blame is misplaced.
> 
> For some circumstances I could see your point. Maybe a wife is tempted by some guy who pursues her. That she eventually caves and has an affair.
> 
> Your wife had multiple affairs. I don't think your issue should be with the OMen. It should be on your ex-wife.


I agree. And that's exactly what I would tell her first husband. It wasn't about him.

That being said, I will admit that I could have done more as a husband. Something you aren't taught about marriage: that you can fall into a sense of happy complacency, get too focused on the kids, and little stresses and lack of romantic maintenance can create vulnerabilities. 

I was in it for the long haul. I think most people are when they get married. For better or for worse. But there's a lot more to it than that, isn't there? In the real world...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bfree said:


> Oh you're right! And I had trust issues for many years courtesy of my exW. And if she were here I would no doubt be addressing her. But the men she was with played a role as well. Since SS is a former OM and not my exW I thought I'd address him. I never got a chance to address the men my wife was involved with. I don't need to tell SS the damage betrayal causes since he is suffering now as a result of his wife's betrayal. In that we are (unfortunately) kindred spirits now.


For my next serious relationship, I will want background info on their relationships. Not a form to fill out, mind you, but I won't get involved with anyone who has cheated on anyone else. Some may rule me out for that reason, and that's fine, I would understand. I'm even at the point that I don't know if I want to be with someone who has divorced parents, especially if the divorce was due to the affair. I know that narrows the pool, but I'm very hesitant to dip my toes into those waters again. Too many underlying issues there.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I'd definitely have them fill out a form. I'd also do a credit check and hire a PI to follow them around for a while. The world is just silly nowadays.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I have one question. Seeing as how you knew she was a cheater, did her cheating on you surprise you in the least?


Utter and complete shock. I feel As much as if we had not been AP's beforehand. I thought she was crazy for doing "it" again, after seeing how much pain she had caused her first H. And the pain she would cause our children after being a child of divorce herself? I got the whole "I deserve to be happy; children are resilient" speech. I swear, there really is a cheater's script. 

Our bond was tight, secure.. or so I thought. The family love was abundant, but I suppose she lost attraction or respect at some point. Maybe she's just easily frustrated and conflict avoidant. It's hard to say what goes on in the mind of a wayward. It's all so ugly, cold and self-absorbed while being cloaked under the guise of something liberating, passionate and life-affirming. Like many others here, I was blindsided. No overt warnings, no "I'm unhappy", nothing of the kind. But of course, I was boring, controlling, etc. The usual fare. The BH doesn't see his wife pulling away, and she starts to despise him for not being the man she wants him to be, though she's not forthright about what she wants.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> For my next serious relationship, I will want background info on their relationships. Not a form to fill out, mind you, but I won't get involved with anyone who has cheated on anyone else. Some may rule me out for that reason, and that's fine, I would understand. I'm even at the point that I don't know if I want to be with someone who has divorced parents, especially if the divorce was due to the affair. I know that narrows the pool, but I'm very hesitant to dip my toes into those waters again. Too many underlying issues there.


*And as long as you have convinced that special person that you are indeed, contrite for your former actions, and that you have made amends and have apologized and sought forgiveness for your part in that former relationship, you should be good!

To that end, and for what you're doing, I really think that you are more than an honorable man!*


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Well, it was late 20's so you'd think I would've known better. I suppose I was to into myself and my own trajectory at the time.
> 
> TAM is an eye-opener no doubt. Having been on the other side of the fence as an OM, I can see all of the entitlement and ego-stroking and self-deception that takes place. It's a wonderful drug, but it's not rooted in truth.
> 
> ...


In my late 20's I accepted that many people cheat. I also did not accept that if you get with someon off an affair they may just turn on you. Lose em how you got em per say. I was much more malleable to the pop culture and it's norms.

Today as an older man I recognize the repurcussions of each, that there are some typical outcomes, I don't even want to worry about some of those things I used to do, don't want it in my head even.

Do we want our children making the same mistakes or our loved ones? Hell no.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

livnlearn said:


> OP didn't come on here BRAGGING that he was the OM. He simply was. Now he is on the other side of that. Interesting perspective. Why not give him a chance to share without jumping all over him??












I have found that many former OM/OW in this forum are some of the best contributors and have helped many members here. Let's not project anger onto the OP here. He is not the OM in your situation. He's offering to help understand the mindset of one in the fog of the affair. Isn't that something that we, as BSs, ask our WS? Why they did it and what were they thinking when they were having the affair?

Many here experienced recent DDay's and are hurting. This thread is probably best avoided if it triggers you.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Since she was still with her husband at the time of your affair, and from your posts she was the one that you were going to be with, how did you rationalize her going home to her husband and having Sex? This is a major trigger for many that there SO is having Sex with someone else.

Did it not matter?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Since she was still with her husband at the time of your affair, and from your posts she was the one that you were going to be with, how did you rationalize her going home to her husband and having Sex? This is a major trigger for many that there SO is having Sex with someone else.
> 
> Did it not matter?


They compartamentalize. They also are around others who do the same thing, so they have support in these matters. Theres a bunch of "write offs" to rationalize these things. There's large percentage of single men who rationalize sleeping with someone's gf or wife.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

staystrong said:


> I created this thread because I've seen a lot of people trying to understand the mindset of the OM.


Um, no thanks. I don't need any assistance in understanding their mindset. Pretty simple stuff really. Thanks anyway. 


- Amp backing out of thread.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Utter and complete shock. I feel As much as if we had not been AP's beforehand. I thought she was crazy for doing "it" again, after seeing how much pain she had caused her first H. And the pain she would cause our children after being a child of divorce herself? I got the whole "I deserve to be happy; children are resilient" speech. I swear, there really is a cheater's script.
> 
> Our bond was tight, secure.. or so I thought. The family love was abundant, but I suppose she lost attraction or respect at some point. Maybe she's just easily frustrated and conflict avoidant. It's hard to say what goes on in the mind of a wayward. It's all so ugly, cold and self-absorbed while being cloaked under the guise of something liberating, passionate and life-affirming. Like many others here, I was blindsided. No overt warnings, no "I'm unhappy", nothing of the kind. But of course, I was boring, controlling, etc. The usual fare. The BH doesn't see his wife pulling away, and she starts to despise him for not being the man she wants him to be, though she's not forthright about what she wants.


They are working closely with the OM to keep the BS(family if married) in the dark, you should know that... that's why you were 'controlling', because you wanted her to treat you with respect. Instead the OM was getting treated well and you were getting a bunch of lies and bullcrap... It's all based on lies, like the one you told yourself about a married couple not being a family.. and her thinking you're 'boring' because she needs constant attention and affirmation from other males that aren't you. Your marriage sounds like it was pretty foggy...


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Our bond was tight, secure.. or so I thought. The family love was abundant, but I suppose she lost attraction or respect at some point. Maybe she's just easily frustrated and conflict avoidant. It's hard to say what goes on in the mind of a wayward. It's all so ugly, cold and self-absorbed while being cloaked under the guise of something liberating, passionate and life-affirming. Like many others here, I was blindsided. No overt warnings, no "I'm unhappy", nothing of the kind. But of course, I was boring, controlling, etc. The usual fare. The BH doesn't see his wife pulling away, and she starts to despise him for not being the man she wants him to be, though she's not forthright about what she wants.


SS - Talk about a paragraph absolutely PACKED with insight! While part of me wants to hate you, part of me also understands your pain and appreciates your willingness to share such organized and clear thoughts that can only come from someone who has walked both sides of this crappy line. 

I am glad that you have learned and matured on your journey through life. Sorry that you had to experience the pain of your wife's betrayal, and truly sorry for your children. 

I do have a couple of questions though. Who do you think you would be today if you hadn't experienced her betrayal? I might argue that her betrayal has enlightened you emotionally and spiritually and made you a better person. More full of empathy and compassion, capable of accepting responsibility and consequences for our actions. Would you agree?

You talk about not viewing a marriage as a family, and therefor not feeling all that bad about breaking up their relationship etc (at the time). I'm not looking to open that can of worms again, but it made me wonder what your view of marriage was earlier in your life? What was your family situation growing up? What was your parent's marriage like? How did they raise you to view marriage? 

Not saying that you deserved the betrayal, or that you would view it as a good thing overall. Neither is true nor fair. But I applaud your ability to grow from your pain. Seems your journey from a 20-year old, self-centered and selfish boy to a more enlightened man capable of putting others first has been a long and arduous one. 

Thanks for sharing,


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I guess I'll ask some questions too. 

*Beginning of the Affair*

You mentioned that the A started off as a random encounter. Please elaborate on this. You mentioned that she pursued you.


Did she meet you at a bar, was she on a business trip, a GNO, at the gym?
Did she in any way play the damsel in distress angle? Did she re-write the history of her marriage? Did she paint her BH as abusive, uncaring, not giving enough attention, et?
How fast did the affair escalate to a full on PA?

*Communications During The Affair*

You mentioned that you were single at the time, that you didn't have to hide it, but she was the one who was married, so she at least had to hide her communications with you.


What were her main means of keeping in contact with you?
Did she have a burner phone, or did she mainly use her own phone. Was it a work phone?
How about email? Did she use a work email addy or her own or secret email account?
How often did you two communicate? Was it occasionally or all the time?

*Sexual Aspects of the Affair*

This is the part that gives BHs mind movies.


We know about Trickle Truth. How often did you have sex with her?
Did she ever have sex with you on the same day she had sex with her BH?
Did she tell you that you were bigger than her husband? Did she ever mention if her husband had any sexual failings?
Was she completely open sexually with you?
Did she ever do sex acts with you that she never did with her husband?
Did you feel jealous if she ever had sex with her husband? Did she tell you that sex with her husband repulsed her and that she stayed faithfuly to you sexually during the affair?
Where did you have sex with her? We often read that a WW in an affair will basically do it with their OM just about anywhere. How about the marital bed? Did she have any scruples or was the sky the limit?
How about sex with her after the affair? We know that the very act of cheating and sneaking around is what makes affair sex so intense. Did it become regular sex once the affair was over and you had a real relationship with her?
Did you or her ever use protection? Or was it mainly unprotected sex?
Did she buy lingerie or dress sexy for the sexual rendezvous?
Did she ever just "make out" with you, or was it always PIV sex?

I'm sure I have more, but these are just the ones I can think of right now.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hiiiiiiiiiiiii Lord!!! ::waves::


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Since she was still with her husband at the time of your affair, and from your posts she was the one that you were going to be with, how did you rationalize her going home to her husband and having Sex? This is a major trigger for many that there SO is having Sex with someone else.
> 
> Did it not matter?


Good question. And a bit tough to answer since it's been a while. 

When you're in an affair, you understand that the WS's primary allegiance is to their spouse, even if they are betraying them. I think some WS's do feel a lot of conflicted loyalties. 

As the OM, I understood this. There comes a point where you begin to feel jealous of the BH, because your emotions are tied up in the WS. I never saw her as simply a sex object, though I was very sexually attracted to her. She wanted it and I wanted it. But there was also a lot of personal feelings and information shared. I would never just "bang some dude's wife" for the sheer conquest of it, but I will admit there were times I felt one-up on him. There were also times I felt one-down, or inferior. I knew she was having 'duty sex' with him, and that's how I placated myself. I was thinking about ME and HER, not him. I wanted to know about him, who he was and what happened in their marriage, but I did not like myself for being an OM. I did chastise myself but her exit from her marriage was very fast, on the order of 3-4 months with only a few meetings between us. Her A during our marriage took place over a year, with many meetings and many deeper betrayals (sleeping with him in our bed, for example, something I would never have done. At least I hope not).

Yes.. what Treyvion said. Compartmentalization, rationalization.. those things play a real role. I could not see it from his perspective, partly because I was single at the time. I was in a place where I felt protective or possessive about my own woman.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

At any point did you fear violence or some form of retribution from the BS (and vice versa for your current status)?

When you were the O/M, how long did you have to keep your relationship hidden. Were there many instances when you were in the BS's home and had to ensure of removing any signs of your presence there?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

russell28 said:


> They are working closely with the OM to keep the BS(family if married) in the dark, you should know that... that's why you were 'controlling', because you wanted her to treat you with respect. Instead the OM was getting treated well and you were getting a bunch of lies and bullcrap... It's all based on lies, like the one you told yourself about a married couple not being a family.. and her thinking you're 'boring' because she needs constant attention and affirmation from other males that aren't you. Your marriage sounds like it was pretty foggy...


I don't know if my marriage was foggy, I've only been married once. I have nothing to compare it to. 

We were together for eight years. We knew each other very well, knew each other's families, loved each other deeply, had children together. It was a marriage, about as close as two people can get. Sure, there are thoughts we must have kept to ourselves and I would've liked to have gone deeper into the relationship, but it was a real relationship, not some illusion. Human behavior is complex, let's face that fact. Ideally, you pair up with someone who is a match for life, or who will invest in the marriage in the same way you want to. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

A wedded couple is not a family. A wedded couple with children is a family. For me, it's just a matter of definition, so there's no real use in debating that. I made vows to my children as much as I made them to my wife. My children will always be my family - there's no divorcing your children, IMO, unless you are some kind of scumbag. Marital love is conditional (except for the rare couple), love for children should never be conditional. Anyhow, separate issues here.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> At any point did you fear violence or some form of retribution from the BS (and vice versa for your current status)?
> 
> When you were the O/M, how long did you have to keep your relationship hidden. Were there many instances when you were in the BS's home and had to ensure of removing any signs of your presence there?


I didn't fear violence during the A because I was not living in the same area as them. After she broke up with him, it crossed my mind. I mentioned earlier that I saw him once afterwards, and oddly enough I was the one to put on the more aggressive stance. There were no words, no physical confrontation. Perhaps I had bonded with my AP so much or felt the BH didn't deserve her or something foggy like that. I was full of myself, no doubt. Maybe a KISA symptom.

I was never in their home. I would've seen that as disrespectful, a violation. I would've felt low if I had done that. I know, it makes you want to puke reading that considering I was having sex with his wife but didn't consider that an equal or superior transgression.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> I guess I'll ask some questions too.
> 
> *Beginning of the Affair*
> 
> ...


*Just a few more questions that I'd like to add to this list:


Does or would a married OM ever think of his wife while engaged in a physical affair with anothe woman?
Does the thought of impregnating an affair partner ever cross the OM's mind?
Does the thought of being "found out" by the BS, friends, family, work co-horts, business associates, church or other social groups ever cross your mind?,
*


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I dunno about you guys, but after six pages I am just reading too much rationalization still here...

Not a family unless you have kids? Seroiusly?

We are talking about someone's HOME. Their SAFE PLACE they retreat to after entering into the world and dealing with arseholes all day long.

Entering someone's home/marriage/life in a deceptive way to violate, contaminate, and interlope is destructive beyond measure.

I can't read anymore rationalizing.. I am gonna have to tag out.


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## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

Did you ever have any concerns about your safety? Playing with other peoples emotions can be dangerous from time to time. I read about it in the paper once or twice a year and I live in a mid size city.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

When in the A, did you brag to others, or did you see it just as another "normal" relationship??

Did you ever regret being the OM before becoming the BS?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> When in the A, did you brag to others, or did you see it just as another "normal" relationship??
> 
> Did you ever regret being the OM before becoming the BS?


I've done it one time in my twenties. It was nothing to brag about. I did know men who would brag about banging peoples wives and I thought it was kinda mean.

Like I said the one I did it with was a "Party Girl" at the time, so she was with more than me.

I was cheating on my wife at the time. I regretted it, felt shame and guilt...

However, I could not understand the impact of devistation until my next wife did it to me. It is a lot of pain, stress, the pain is incredible. Much worse than breaking your leg time and time again. It destroyed my life.

So yes, I don't want my children committing this common mistake. I also don't want them going sexless either or starving their spouses.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> I guess I'll ask some questions too.
> 
> *Beginning of the Affair*
> 
> ...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Why do you think she betrayed you? After getting you did she think you were boring, predictable, the heat from the sex died down, what?

Is there any good reason? Even a bad reason?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> When in the A, did you brag to others, or did you see it just as another "normal" relationship??
> 
> Did you ever regret being the OM before becoming the BS?


After our first night together (no PIV sex), and some email exchanges, I told a group of close friends I had met the most amazing woman and had the most erotic night of my life. The problem was .. she's married. My friends had mixed responses. Some did not approve, some were wary, a few seemed happy I was having a good time. One of my friends referred to her as a "wh*re" in the sense I was scoring with a loose woman, and I immediately defended her and snapped at him. Obviously, I already had feelings for her and did not want her to be seen in this light.

But .. the most shameful part.. our first night together, we kissed and groped and other stuff while her husband and others were sleeping in a large room. We did it under the nose of her husband. It's disgusting, really, when I think about it, but it was exciting at the time. That poor man, I hope she never shared that with him. It was so f'ing disrespectful and shallow of us. I feel like a douche for that now.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I have to apologize for this in advance but part of me is enjoying your pain. I'm sorry, but I do.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I don't know if my marriage was foggy, I've only been married once. I have nothing to compare it to.
> 
> We were together for eight years. We knew each other very well, knew each other's families, loved each other deeply, had children together. It was a marriage, about as close as two people can get. Sure, there are thoughts we must have kept to ourselves and I would've liked to have gone deeper into the relationship, but it was a real relationship, not some illusion. Human behavior is complex, let's face that fact. Ideally, you pair up with someone who is a match for life, or who will invest in the marriage in the same way you want to. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
> 
> A wedded couple is not a family. A wedded couple with children is a family. For me, it's just a matter of definition, so there's no real use in debating that. I made vows to my children as much as I made them to my wife. My children will always be my family - there's no divorcing your children, IMO, unless you are some kind of scumbag. Marital love is conditional (except for the rare couple), love for children should never be conditional. Anyhow, separate issues here.


I know your excuses to go after another mans woman.. I got it, they weren't a 'family'... I actually am of the belief that even if they aren't married, if they are in a commited relationship, they should be hands off until they split. They shouldn't lie to another to be with me, I won't be sloppy seconds. So if it makes you feel better to think they weren't a family, to someone with my thought process, that's a heaping pile of dung. You messed with another mans woman behind his back. That's pretty taboo. spin it however you like, it's still a no-no in most civilized cultures that I'm aware of. I love how people who cheat have lines, like the 'marital bed' thing.. that's so horrible, but of course if you do it in the back seat of the car, that's just totally acceptable behavior... oy.....


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Just a couple of thoughts as I exit:

1) the idea that a married couple with or without children is not a family is pure rationalization in this context. I remember being young and married before children and being very much invested in my family. Many of the more compelling stories here involve families without children. Bandit, Shamwow. There are many, many more. 

2) I do not enjoy your pain, though it does seem you kind of stepped into it. Most upsetting, though, is what this will put your children through. I wish you and them the best.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I have some questions about DDay, how it came about, any attempts at R on her part or her husbands part, if he was begging, etc. 

But I have to go to work now. I'll ask them if they haven't been asked when I get home from work.

Thanks for the honest answers.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> After our first night together (no PIV sex), and some email exchanges, I told a group of close friends I had met the most amazing woman and had the most erotic night of my life. The problem was .. she's married. My friends had mixed responses. Some did not approve, some were wary, a few seemed happy I was having a good time. One of my friends referred to her as a "wh*re" in the sense I was scoring with a loose woman, and I immediately defended her and snapped at him. Obviously, I already had feelings for her and did not want her to be seen in this light.
> 
> But .. the most shameful part.. our first night together, we kissed and groped and other stuff while her husband and others were sleeping in a large room. We did it under the nose of her husband. It's disgusting, really, when I think about it, but it was exciting at the time. That poor man, I hope she never shared that with him. It was so f'ing disrespectful and shallow of us. I feel like a douche for that now.


I was going to say that he'd probably eventually just feel sorry for you both, having no self control and being such dbags... to yourself and others, for a cheap thrill.. look at you as pathetic individuals, not feel pity for himself, but for the two of you... but it seems you know that now, sorry it's so late after you destroyed people.. You don't even get the moral high ground, because of your history, that sucks. So you have to suffer, and feel both sides.. the pain of betrayal, and the disgust of lowering yourself..


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Just a couple of thoughts as I exit:
> 
> 1) the idea that a married couple with or without children is not a family is pure rationalization in this context. I remember being young and married before children and being very much invested in my family. Many of the more compelling stories here involve families without children. Bandit, Shamwow. There are many, many more.
> 
> 2) I do not enjoy your pain, though it does seem you kind of stepped into it. Most upsetting, though, is what this will put your children through. I wish you and them the best.


It takes a certain type of man to go with a woman, knowing that she has another man.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Why do you think she betrayed you? After getting you did she think you were boring, predictable, the heat from the sex died down, what?
> 
> Is there any good reason? Even a bad reason?


In short, yes, all that stuff.

The longer version.. and I'm leaving a lot out...

She did say she had been losing attraction (when? she couldn't say) and then also launched into feeling trapped, bored, etc. That her "cup was full" of disappointments. She even called me a 'dictator' and I got on her case a lot. That was foggy nonsense, that last part. 

Our situation was complicated. We were an international couple and moved a lot. We had a very loving relationship, though, and people would always comment how great a couple we seemed to be. We did have some financial issues because I was living in her country after grad school and it was hard to find stable work. Then I found a good paying job in the US and life was more comfortable. She tended to the kids, and we did not have many disputes, though we did have different expectations about roles and responsibilities. Overall, all good. Better than good. Great. 

Then I decided I wanted to quit my job so we could both start our own businesses overseas (she had been training for something). It was more my choice, I think, than a true joint agreement. Her business picked up quickly since it was brick and mortar, but mine was a web start up so we knew I would not be earning for a while. It went longer than expected. We lived with her mom for almost a year while getting our businesses in formation. Great for the grandparenting aspect, and I got along well with MIL. I was like a son to her. But our romantic life probably suffered even if it didn't feel that way at the time. We had two children younger than 4 years old so they became a big focus. I was working from home, maybe not taking care of myself that well, our social life was not all that good, but life seemed content overall. Many good memories from those times. 

Then we moved to a new town to start our lives as planned, and she met OM the first month. There was no time for transition, no adjustment to work and school schedules, no real time to form a social network or start our own activities. OM was her teacher, btw, and they spent time alone and some time socially with others. 

I think her romantic interest had dropped some (her sex rank went up, mine down), she was feeling independent and successful but also stressed to be the breadwinner. None of that was conveyed to me very well. All of it kept in. So OM was an escape from her stresses. She was probably felt she was carrying the load but I was doing a lot too. Spending quality time with the kids, doing half the chores, etc while working a lot on my business from home. Well, we know how that lowers a man's value level in the eyes of a woman. I think she felt loved, but I don't think she felt appreciated like she wanted, and maybe something was missing. Maybe she lost respect or the spark. I don't know. When we moved, she took up her long held passion of music again and OM tapped into that. He was somewhat established (not successful necessarily), I guess good looking, and talented. Also married. Also a cheater (he'd already been a part of two affairs, one with a married woman when he was younger). My guess is he flattered her, listened to her, encouraged her talents, all the things she felt she wasn't getting at home. I always told my wife she was beautiful, sexy, etc but there was a shiny new guy coming on to her. She liked it.

The basic truth I think is that she was receiving attention and she didn't stop it, whereas before she probably would have. Her boundaries are lacking. She's slim, attractive, charming, and men hit on her. She never encouraged it in my presence, but she's naturally 'engaging' (I am too), so people are drawn to that. She knows she is sexy but perhaps stopped feeling that way as a mother. And maybe I wasn't doing enough to make her feel that way. It's the same old story, really. I think her EA started fairly fast because perhaps she had been falling out of love with me and someone came into the picture who said and did the right things. I don't know who made the first move or anything like that. I know a good deal about their A but not everything, of course. What I really know is that it was her choice, and I did not "push" her into it as she claimed after D-Day, and she spent a lot of time justifying her actions. We all know that. Oh, and she was reading Eat Pray Love during her A if that's emblematic of anything. She had detached and was forming an allegiance with another man. She betrayed me. Simple.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> I have some questions about DDay, how it came about, any attempts at R on her part or her husbands part, if he was begging, etc.
> 
> But I have to go to work now. I'll ask them if they haven't been asked when I get home from work.
> 
> Thanks for the honest answers.


He was crushed. She told me he curled up in the fetal position when she told him. That's when it hit me how awful we had been. I began to doubt her, doubt myself, and saw that maybe it had gone too far, especially since we weren't a "sure thing" at that time. 

With him, it really was a cut. I expect it was going to happen with me or someone else. This is truth. It happened fast. She'd already had a PA and it was tearing up their marriage. She told me he had been webcamming with girls and now I suspect that it was because she was detaching from him and rejected him emotionally and physically. She said he even gone to see a prostitute but I don't know if that's true or at what stage during our A that occurred. This all sounds so tawdry but there's more to it than sex, of course. 

I don't know if he begged, but I do know he pleaded. I am sure he endured a lot of pain, but it's not a pain I could have deeply empathized with at the time other than guilt and sympathy. But what is the sympathy of an AP worth? Nothing. He's part of destroying a marriage. I mean me. I was a part, yes, I understand that. I was wrong for engaging with her with she was a coward for cheating on her husband and not divorcing him instead. She was eating cake and then moved from one branch to another seamlessly. She's never been alone. I don't think she was able to do that. She even said so herself.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

How is your relationship now with the ex-wife given the ties that bind you together (your children)?

Has your ex ever expressed true remorse to either you or her first husband?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It takes a certain type of man to go with a woman, knowing that she has another man.


It spoke of my lack of morals at the time, and poor selection of a mate. Keep in mind that I did not pursue her and I did not come on to her. She came on to me. This may mean nothing to you, but it makes a difference to me. It's one thing to hit on a married woman and trying to break down her barriers, and another to welcome her sensual advances. I had doubts and reservations, I judged myself, but I did not tell her no. It didn't feel like a cheap thrill. I know what that feels like and that wasn't this.


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## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, just because she didn't have kids with her first husband doesn't mean a family wasn't destroyed. Both could have had important, meaningful relationships with their respective inlaws, nephews, nieces etc. In any event a marriage was destroyed.
> 
> I have a really good friend, while he was engaged and then married to his first wife, he was seeing another woman. Finally after only two months of marriage, he left the wife for the girlfriend. Married to wife number two for a few years, then got another girl on the side. When wife found out, she went scorched earth all over Facebook etc. all her friends came to her defense, and my friend was portrayed as the scumbag. But my argument to wife was what the heck did you expect? She had no problem breaking up his first relationship, but then loved playing the victim when the shoe was on the other foot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's extremely amazing how the OM/OW play the victim when it happens to them. I'm not implying you StayStrong. I'm talking in general terms. When OW came to my house in October to discuss "questions" she needed answers too, about a relationship I had with my ex husband. Was so shocking. He faked a reconciliation with me, while being in a relationship with her. All along lying to both of us about each other. She totally forgot that she slept with my husband while he was married and while she was married. And couldn't see her part in destroying my marriage, let alone her own. And felt I needed to apologize to her for what pain she had gone through. Instead of her apologizing to me and my daughter for what her part and/or actions caused. All they have is their delusions. And so it must come as an extreme shock when reality sets in and their forced to see what their "soulmate" did to them. Remember affairs aren't based on reality and true emotions. They're based on lies, deception and mutually shared delusions. So yeah! What do they expect when it happens to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> SS - Talk about a paragraph absolutely PACKED with insight! While part of me wants to hate you, part of me also understands your pain and appreciates your willingness to share such organized and clear thoughts that can only come from someone who has walked both sides of this crappy line.
> 
> I am glad that you have learned and matured on your journey through life. Sorry that you had to experience the pain of your wife's betrayal, and truly sorry for your children.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the repost, but am really hoping to get a response to these questions. Especially on your perception of marriage as an institution, what shaped it (especially early on) and how it played a role in things.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> How is your relationship now with the ex-wife given the ties that bind you together (your children)?
> 
> Has your ex ever expressed true remorse to either you or her first husband?


Our relationship is very poor, and we do not communicate very much. Mainly emails. Short and to the point. She would like something more cordial, but I carry too many resentments. For the affair, the breaking of the family, the pain of dealing with this alone in a foreign country, etc. 

True remorse? I don't know if I have seen true remorse. Acknowledgements of guilt, some fault, regrets.. yes, she has done that. To my satisfaction? No, not even close, but I am sure every BS feels that way. She stills sees certain things in a very delusional way that only WS's can see them. It seems very much about her feelings, not so much about me or the kids. She will say knows she has really hurt me, that she failed our family, but it just comes off as empty and said more to appease something in herself. 

She has expressed guilt over her first H as well. But to me, it sounds pitying of him. That he didn't deserve it, that I didn't deserve what happened to me, either. During her A, she wanted to track him down to see how he was doing. She heard he was married and I think that made her feel better. Post D-Day, I heard things like "I set him free to do the things he wanted to do" and really gross nonsense stuff like that. I don't know she feels now. During our separation, she told me that things with him weren't that bad, so I guess it means she knows she was manipulating in her betrayal of him. Honestly, I don't know what she really thinks. It's hard for me to fathom the words that have come out of her mouth at times. 

I probably sound angry, it must be the headache. I should take a break, too.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Sorry for the repost, but am really hoping to get a response to these questions. Especially on your perception of marriage as an institution, what shaped it (especially early on) and how it played a role in things.





> Who do you think you would be today if you hadn't experienced her betrayal? I might argue that her betrayal has enlightened you emotionally and spiritually and made you a better person. More full of empathy and compassion, capable of accepting responsibility and consequences for our actions. Would you agree?


Her betrayal murdered my soul, to be honest. The PTSD from being alone here with no support (I really needed some pharmaceuticals and people in my corner) was difficult to deal with. It changed me as a person. 

Actually, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying. If you had asked people who knew me what I was like, they would have told you I was very caring and compassionate. Lively, humorous, positive. And bold. Not someone who would shrink away from things. I had many ambitions on how to help make the world a better place, and my professional life centered around that. I wasn't a Nice Guy, just a Good Guy. Like many others here. Involved in good causes, a loyal friend, a great dad and many other things. I took pride in who I was. And not in a conceited way. That person was destroyed in many ways, and that loss of self is very hard to take. Some illusions were shattered, and that is good for growth, but to have something of your core belief system destroyed is very difficult to deal with. This could have been true for the first BH as well. I'm sure he was shattered, too. So basically I was leading a pretty good life, a basically moral life, a fun life, with the exception of how I met my ex. She was the best and the worst thing to happen to me, that's how I see it. I feel spiritually less, not more, and would be much better off if we were still married. She told me she learned a lot from me, that she became a better person as a result. (Hmm..). I learned a lot from her as well, but now I am much less optimistic about life and my place in it. I put a high value on truth, but of course my actions with her during our affair were deceptive. To her BH. I couldn't see the truth at the time. I guess I didn't want to see it. I was a mature person at the time (late 20's) and I knew who I was in life and what I wanted. I became involved with someone who was betrayed her husband, and that's wrong. At the same time, I know I was captivated and I did want to be with her. It's a complicated set of emotions. 



> You talk about not viewing a marriage as a family, and therefor not feeling all that bad about breaking up their relationship etc (at the time). I'm not looking to open that can of worms again, but it made me wonder what your view of marriage was earlier in your life? What was your family situation growing up? What was your parent's marriage like? How did they raise you to view marriage?


My parents have been married for over 40 years. That was my model. They are both very honorable, very good people with strong views on marriage. Slightly socially conservative, mother is religious. 

I didn't say I didn't feel bad about breaking up their marriage. Now I understand the animosity.. to me at the time, her marriage was already broken. Her PA, for example. Her eagerness to be with me. Those were signs to me that she no longer wanted to be with her husband. And she is in many ways a very kind, caring and wonderful person. That's the paradox of these situations.

Because the physical connection occurred so early, there was never a slow build up where I would've normally suggested she divorce her husband if she did not love him. Early on I knew she was going to leave him, and she did. It was an exit affair. She's even told me her new partner has expressed more remorse than I did at the time of her divorce. It's a bit insulting given the difference in circumstances, though some may roll their eyes at that. Having children and being an international couple is a completely different set of circumstances.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

When you pick your nose in the car do you wipe it on something or do you roll it until air and skin cells cause it to coagulate and congeal and then flick it? 

I've always been curious how OM's deal with boogers. It actually makes an important difference when you think about it.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

staystrong said:


> It spoke of my lack of morals at the time, and poor selection of a mate. Keep in mind that I did not pursue her and I did not come on to her.* She came on to me. This may mean nothing to you, but it makes a difference to me. It's one thing to hit on a married woman and trying to break down her barriers, and another to welcome her sensual advances.* I had doubts and reservations, I judged myself, but I did not tell her no. It didn't feel like a cheap thrill. I know what that feels like and that wasn't this.


This seems to me a false dichotomy. There's really no mitigation to be found in her coming on to you instead of you hitting on her. It doesn't make you a better class of cheater that she initiated since you obviously reciprocated her advances. While you've owned most of you did during the affair, the "she came on to me really hard" shows you're not fully owning all of it. You're not some mindless dupe, right? You made dozens of choices yourself that led to the affair even if she got the ball rolling.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I created this thread because I've seen a lot of people trying to understand the mindset of the OM. I've seen great insights and misunderstandings, but I can only refer to my personal experience.
> 
> This is a support forum, and if I can any way help people in any way I won't to be able to do that. I've been on WS forums who are actively engaged in an A so I can see through their bull. But only via hindsight and as a BS myself.
> 
> No, I didn't destroy anyone's family. She did not have kids at the time. I know myself and that's not something I would have ever gotten involved in. Especially not at the stage I was in my life.


So it was ok to destroy the BH's life, his parents and grandparents, siblings all got to share in his pain as well.

But it was ok because no kids were involved.

And someone thinks he does not need any more IC. :rofl: ROTFALMAO.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Honestly, no.
> 
> Call it ignorance or naiveté. But I had never been cheated on before nor had I cheated on anyone before. And my longest relationship had been 1.5 years. I preferred my time single but I also enjoyed the company of women. This was my 20's. I was attractive and charming enough to meet women, and I considered myself a good person overall. Honest, loyal, optimistic, and placed a high value on truth. So in part, I bought into the WS's rewriting and devaluation of her marriage (though she did not have a laundry list of flaws or anything like that).
> 
> At the beginning, it was romantic, it was erotic, it was ego-fulfilling, but it did turn into love. Keep in mind that not all OM are the ones hitting on the married women. She pursued me, but I welcomed it. Should that have been a red flag? Yes, of course. But there are some women who are so charming and alluring, that many men will fall prey. I had good self-esteem, I was very cautious and reserved about being involved as a third party. But I did it. Because I wanted to, and I was able to preserve my self-image at the same time. That's the simple truth.


That's right your WW was to blame for you to cheat on her husband with you. You were date raped, repeatedly, for months, years even.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Maybe. I don't know.
> 
> A family is different than a couple. To me, a family means you have children together that you intend to raise, educate and love. A couple is not a family, IMO. This could come down to a matter of perspective, but I tend to think the common dictionary-defintion of family is that you have kids. Once you become a parent, then you have a family. Prior to that, there is the wedded couple. The intent of family, yes, but not a family. A couple which is now part of two larger families, but not yet a family themselves. Some religions may define a couple as a family, but I personally don't.


Further justification for you to bang a married women.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's hard to say what I think. It's a paradox, because as you know, being betrayed taints the memories and you start to re-analyze the relationship in a different light.
> 
> Did she have those qualities? Yes. She still does. And I see her in a completely different light, in part due to the dark wisdom gained from TAM and other places. I try to keep it balanced. I'm a bit different now after my experience as a BS. I think of myself differently.
> 
> ...


Of course the old she was banging OM before me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Her betrayal murdered my soul, to be honest. The PTSD from being alone here with no support (I really needed some pharmaceuticals and people in my corner) was difficult to deal with. It changed me as a person.


Felt like getting raped repeatedly, huh?



staystrong said:


> Actually, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying. If you had asked people who knew me what I was like, they would have told you I was very caring and compassionate. Lively, humorous, positive. And bold. Not someone who would shrink away from things. I had many ambitions on how to help make the world a better place, and my professional life centered around that. I wasn't a Nice Guy, just a Good Guy. Like many others here. Involved in good causes, a loyal friend, a great dad and many other things. I took pride in who I was. And not in a conceited way. That person was destroyed in many ways, and that loss of self is very hard to take. Some illusions were shattered, and that is good for growth, but to have something of your core belief system destroyed is very difficult to deal with. This could have been true for the first BH as well. I'm sure he was shattered, too. So basically I was leading a pretty good life, a basically moral life, a fun life, with the exception of how I met my ex. She was the best and the worst thing to happen to me, that's how I see it. I feel spiritually less, not more, and would be much better off if we were still married. She told me she learned a lot from me, that she became a better person as a result. (Hmm..). I learned a lot from her as well, but now I am much less optimistic about life and my place in it. I put a high value on truth, but of course my actions with her during our affair were deceptive. To her BH. I couldn't see the truth at the time. I guess I didn't want to see it. I was a mature person at the time (late 20's) and I knew who I was in life and what I wanted. I became involved with someone who was betrayed her husband, and that's wrong. At the same time, I know I was captivated and I did want to be with her. It's a complicated set of emotions.


Your entire foundation removed from under you, and it's literally trying to break your back. I know how it feels. You are lucky that you had emotional support. In my situation they had turned much of my support against me, so they were active contributors working against me. It caused me a lot of pain that had no where to bleed out to.


staystrong said:


> My parents have been married for over 40 years. That was my model. They are both very honorable, very good people with strong views on marriage. Slightly socially conservative, mother is religious.
> 
> I didn't say I didn't feel bad about breaking up their marriage. Now I understand the animosity.. to me at the time, her marriage was already broken. Her PA, for example. Her eagerness to be with me. Those were signs to me that she no longer wanted to be with her husband. And she is in many ways a very kind, caring and wonderful person. That's the paradox of these situations.


You won't do it again will you? No matter how glamorous, how hurt, how far they are out of their situation. You'd probably want them to get out of it, and have some time alone before you deal with them. Also their cheating now is probably a stench to you, that you had it done to you.


staystrong said:


> Because the physical connection occurred so early, there was never a slow build up where I would've normally suggested she divorce her husband if she did not love him. Early on I knew she was going to leave him, and she did. It was an exit affair. She's even told me her new partner has expressed more remorse than I did at the time of her divorce. It's a bit insulting given the difference in circumstances, though some may roll their eyes at that. Having children and being an international couple is a completely different set of circumstances.


You got hurt in so many ways by her betrayal, and I know where you are at. You can come out of it a better person, and you should. 

Going forward I wouldn't aid and abet a cheater, and I'd see it for what it is. I don't want to get mixed up with that stuff anymore.

It's possible that she never respected you, but she had a great time. She never respected you because you let her cheat on her husband. When the fun ran out, she went to find it somewhere else.

I don't know, I just know I'm not looking for affairs to dip into, it's playing with fire and I lost too much.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> Originally Posted by staystrong View Post
> It spoke of my lack of morals at the time, and poor selection of a mate. Keep in mind that I did not pursue her and I did not come on to her. She came on to me. This may mean nothing to you, but it makes a difference to me. It's one thing to hit on a married woman and trying to break down her barriers, and another to welcome her sensual advances. I had doubts and reservations, I judged myself, but I did not tell her no. It didn't feel like a cheap thrill. I know what that feels like and that wasn't this.


I read over what you quoted and yeah, you're right. I knew what I was doing and I knew that it was wrong. Whether I was the instigator or not it doesn't matter, because the final result was the same. 

I'm just saying I wouldn't try to seduce someone who is in a relationship. Not then, not now.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

So that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt, which it seems like you do not want.

While I do applaud you sharing your story and being open to questions, I do have to say that it appears you are still in denial on many aspects of your past behavior.

You claim to have regarded marriage highly, yet had no problem fooling around with a married woman while her husband was in the same room. You justify it by clinging to the "her marriage was over, it was an exit affair." Notice the word affair is still attached to that. And since you fooled around with her the first night you met her, tell us again how you knew her marriage was over and how unhappy she was within minutes of meeting her? Guessing that part of the story came out later, after you had already taken a steaming dump on their marriage. Also, be assured she told the same story to her current man, but stuck around/ate cake longer due to more complicated issues around abandoning the marriage (kids, finances etc). 

Knowing how your parents felt about marriage and commitment, how did they react to your behavior? How welcoming were they to your wife, given her previous behaviors? Were you honest with them?

You seem to have consoled yourself earlier on with the fact that your you weren't the first other man in her marriage, that her marriage was already over, they didn't have kids etc. You minimize the significance of the transgression and deflect blame (you were pursued, you were single etc). 

But now that you have been on the receiving end, it is all about how awful this is because you have kids, are in another country, you thought marriage would be forever, and you were a good husband etc. 

I feel bad for your situation, no one deserves to live through that kind of betrayal. I am truly sorry for your children. I do believe your wife is a manipulative narcissist. But I also don't think you take nearly enough ownership of your previous actions and the consequences they caused. You were not simply a witness or even just an accomplice to the crime. *You* murdered a marriage and actively destroyed someone's life.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> It's possible that she never respected you, but she had a great time. She never respected you because you let her cheat on her husband. When the fun ran out, she went to find it somewhere else.


It's possible. 



treyvion said:


> I don't know, I just know I'm not looking for affairs to dip into, it's playing with fire and I lost too much.


Amen to that.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I read over what you quoted and yeah, you're right. I knew what I was doing and I knew that it was wrong. Whether I was the instigator or not it doesn't matter, because the final result was the same.
> 
> I'm just saying I wouldn't try to seduce someone who is in a relationship. Not then, not now.


It felt good to be a seducer. They used to call me a "Cassanova". My main mission wasn't people who were married and things, but they too would be attracted.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Being cheated on and having my life demolished did HELP me in a few ways. 

First of all the cheating, and non-support of family and friends gave my stress no where to bleed to. So my CNS was fired up 100%. I was never usually able to do this myself, so I got really strong in the gym.

Because I couldn't have peoples distorted realities in my head because they weren't helping me, I got my clearest clarity I ever had in my life. My ability to focus on demand was better than it ever had been.

I remorsed over the ex's who were so great to me. Helped make me the man I was, really good relationship partners who would cover my backside when it was turned, who loved to help me and see me happy.... It made me want to be a better man for a long term relationship. A more consistent, trustworthy man who wants to give to his wife long term girlfriend so much of himself, so that she knows every day how much i love and appreciate her.

I learned how to dress my confidence intentionally... Because the situation with ex would take it, so I learned how to manage it. Without that situation confidence would come and go like luck.


Without going through all that pain and craziness I don't know how I would have did it. I didn't even know it was possible.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

staystrong said:


> GThere were also times I felt one-down, or inferior. I knew she was having 'duty sex' with him, and that's how I placated myself.


OP. did the above ever make you feel "kinda grossed out at all" ? Knowing she was still having sex with him and you at the same time ?

Also, were the excuses she gave to you for cheating on you the same or similar as those she gave her first BH


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt, which it seems like you do not want.
> 
> While I do applaud you sharing your story and being open to questions, I do have to say that it appears you are still in denial on many aspects of your past behavior.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. 

My only point was that it is one thing to play a hand in destroying a couple (and their extended family), it's another to play a hand in destroying a couple which have children. You are destroying the lives of innocent children along with an innocent spouse. It's simply more criminal to me. Am I the only one who has this opinion?

My parents were receptive to my ex. If they had their reservations, and I'm sure they had some, they did not express those reservations to me. I'm much more liberal in ways that my parents are not, and I've done many things that they did not approve of as well as things they did approve of. I'm like them but very different from them. Anyhow, they had seen the damage which had been done to some of my mom's family members through infidelity, but I don't know if they wanted to attribute that to their son. We did not tell them the details of how we had met, but they did know that my ex had been married at the time. I think my ex told my mother that they her and her first husband had grown apart, or that she had changed. My mother didn't probe about why they hadn't divorced, though in hindsight I do think they should've grilled me a bit on it. I probably would have defended my ex and myself, though. I was pretty convinced of our love and our choices.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

barbados said:


> OP. did the above ever make you feel "kinda grossed out at all" ? Knowing she was still having sex with him and you at the same time ?


No, because at that point I didn't see her as 'mine'. I wasn't yet in love/infatuated with her as much as she was with me, I think. I was on my trip, moving around, doing many things. To me, I saw an individual, I didn't see a wife. That was the level of detachment I felt. She was her own person and she was married, and I acknowledged that was her primary relationship. I don't think AP's understand how damaging the affair is to the marriage, though. That's the compartmentalization. My mindset was, well, she is trying to figure things out with her husband. She sounds like she wants to leave him. She sounds like she's been waiting to leave him but didn't know how. What role would I play in this, if any? I knew people had affairs, but I thought they didn't end all marriages, or they led to another relationship. _My assumption was that the marriage was dysfunctional if someone was having an affair, not that the affairs caused the dysfunction._ That's important. What I thought was 'mature' about our situation was really self-delusional and ignorant. I had no firsthand experience with witnessing divorce or infidelity with the exception of one friend's parents as a teen. And as a teen, you don't grasp the complexity. Most of my friend's parents were either in stable marriages or had divorced and remarried long ago. 



barbados said:


> Also, were the excuses she gave to you for cheating on you the same or similar as those she gave her first BH


The thing is, I don't know exactly what she told her BH, do I? I know some things she told me, but I don't know what she told him. I'm sure we both got ILYBINILWY. For me, I was extremely frustrated by the lack of warning. We had always said we would tell each other everything, if something was bothering the other, etc. You know how it goes. The basics of what people expect to do in a marriage.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Being cheated on and having my life demolished did HELP me in a few ways.
> 
> First of all the cheating, and non-support of family and friends gave my stress no where to bleed to. So my CNS was fired up 100%. I was never usually able to do this myself, so I got really strong in the gym.
> 
> ...


great post


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Hurtful, hurtful stuff and it is important to see both sides of the picture. You need to understand WHY you don't want to do it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Side note: In another TAM thread just started, someone mentioned a survey which stated that Americans were the least forgiving of affairs, and the country I am in (and my ex is from) is the most forgiving. 

There are cultural differences at play here as well. Mine versus hers. But I can't imagine the pain of betrayal is any less here. Or maybe it is?


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> This seems to me a false dichotomy. There's really no mitigation to be found in her coming on to you instead of you hitting on her. It doesn't make you a better class of cheater that she initiated since you obviously reciprocated her advances. While you've owned most of you did during the affair, the *"she came on to me really hard" *shows you're not fully owning all of it. You're not some mindless dupe, right? You made dozens of choices yourself that led to the affair even if she got the ball rolling.


I have to side with staystrong here, there is a big difference between being the agressor and being persued and more when you are male.

see, I have never cheated in a GF in my life, but I was once OM, I detested cheaters and OM/OW (my father broke our family and my mother focused her resentment on me when I was teeneger), for me there were no excuses, they were garbage as simple as that, when I was 21 I took a break from college (and the whole cheating situation at home), and I went to live for a while with a friend, there I found a simple job as dishwasher (I had alot of savings), and a beautiful married blond waitress entered almost at the same time as me.

she began to persue me relentlessly, alot of physical touchs, alot of indirects, invitations (damn even other waitresses were supporting her advances telling me how much she liked me), all my friends wento to the restaurant to meet her when I told them about her and told me, "are you stupid, bang her", my mistake at the time was never directly rejecting her I just deflected her advances, but I guess she took it like "as long as there is a definitely "no", she could keep trying".

I am going to be a Little graphic here
Let me ramind you that I hated infidelity for my parents situation and always came with excuses to not go with her or to change conversations when they become insinuations, but I was never rude.
I had no problems dating or getting ONS with others girls of the same caliber (and single of course), but the sexual tension that she build after some months of advances was engraved in my mind, to the point that in the shower I began jerking thinking in her, until the day she made her move and jump on me without blouse, I kind of say no, but then I just stopped thinking, my instints took over me when she went after my tool (I already had a bonner).

someone wrote in other thread, when I shared the story that I was kind of raped, of course I never saw it like that, I until today saw it as if I was weak and had poor boundaries.

I have not shared this on my thread, but that is one the reasons of why I began to lurking 7 years ago about boundaries and infidelity, because it amazed me (after the act) how did I ended doing what I despissed so much, that is also when I stopped seing everything as black and White, and now gray was also an option.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks for sharing, Manticore. Let me ask you, how old was she?Was it only once? What happened after that for you? Did you ever meet her husband? Did you feel guilt and regret for him, or was it more for yourself? Do you know what happened to her, or if she cheated again?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Hurtful, hurtful stuff and it is important to see both sides of the picture. You need to understand WHY you don't want to do it.


That's crystal clear. I think anyone who experiences betrayal is loathe to betray another or be involved in affairs. Yet we do hear tales of BS's becoming WS's/AP's on this board.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

manticore said:


> I have to side with staystrong here, there is a big difference between being the agressor and being persued and more when you are male.
> 
> see, I have never cheated in a GF in my life, but I was once OM, I detested cheaters and OM/OW (my father broke our family and my mother focused her resentment on me when I was teeneger), for me there were no excuses, they were garbage as simple as that, when I was 21 I took a break from college (and the whole cheating situation at home), and I went to live for a while with a friend, there I found a simple job as dishwasher (I had alot of savings), and a beautiful married blond waitress entered almost at the same time as me.
> 
> ...


No. If you have a affair you choose to do it. If you are the affair partner, you still must choose to cheat.

Once you make that decision you lose the right to say you are innocent.

And if you say anything else you are blameshifting which maked me wonder if you really changed.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

SS, how did you find out your now X was having an affair? If you've answered this, I missed it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A confession.

First confession was a lie. She said she had met someone on a trip, slept with him twice and had feelings for him.

She told me this the day before we went on vacation with her family and our kids. Nice, eh? I think she had a strategy.

When we returned home, I confronted her alone and told things didn't add up. That's when she confessed to being in love with someone else and that I should get over her and I could live without her. Was she supposed to be with the same person her whole life? Didn't she deserve to be happy? Marriage isn't sacred. We have different views on family. 

What a c*nt.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: I was an OM once - do you have any questions?*



staystrong said:


> That's crystal clear. I think anyone who experiences betrayal is loathe to betray another or be involved in affairs. Yet we do hear tales of BS's becoming WS's/AP's on this board.


Yeah that I still can't understand. Once you've experienced this you'd never wish it on your worst enemy.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

The self image is destroyed by the affair
and cheating is a way to boost
thier ego.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> A confession.
> 
> First confession was a lie. She said she had met someone on a trip, slept with him twice and had feelings for him.
> 
> ...


I just read your first few posts in your threads from late 2012. Your ex-wife is broken, but not obviously broken to new men that meet her. But all of her romantic relationships are doomed. And her broken-ness will become more apparent as she keeps repeating her same behaviors over time.

With first husband for ? years, married to him for 7 years, then cheated on him with someone else and left him for you.

With second husband (you) for 8 years, married to you for 6 years, then cheated on you with ? others, then left you for another man.

She pursued you, was infatuated with you, won you over.

She had to be with current other man, was like a "coke fiend" when it came to being with him.

Here is her pattern: She falls madly "in love," stays that way for the usual couple of years. Then settles in and out of force of habit stays with person for a few more years, even though the infatuation has worn off. About 6-7 years out, infatuation has worn off enough that she seeks it out and pursues it with another man, whoever is most suitable that she encounters at that time. It wouldn't surprise me if your wife had several affairs on you, shorter term, that didn't work out, before she arrived at this current other man.

If it makes you feel any better, she will lose her infatuation with him as well, stay with him for a few years after that out of habit while the infatuation fades further, then eventually cheat on him with a new infatuation "in love" target.

When does it all end? It ends when she can no longer "pull" a "better" or "equal" guy to the one she's with. My guess if she keeps herself attractive she may be able to continue this pattern into her early 60s? Unless she somehow figures it out before then.

The fact that the "in love" feeling fades after a few years is something I could notice in other people's relationships, and of course in my own, even when I was in high school. Apparently, some people never figure this out.


----------



## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I read over what you quoted and yeah, you're right. I knew what I was doing and I knew that it was wrong. Whether I was the instigator or not it doesn't matter, because the final result was the same.
> 
> I'm just saying I wouldn't try to seduce someone who is in a relationship. Not then, not now.


Another day I find the same story continuing as in an old gangster/mafia movie. There is suppose to be honor amongst thieves. 
:rofl:
ROTFALMAO


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> A confession.
> 
> First confession was a lie. She said she had met someone on a trip, slept with him twice and had feelings for him.
> 
> ...


She used you for a joy ride. When someone attempts to convince you of things like this, let them... Get on with your life, it's much better than trying to fight it.


----------



## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt, which it seems like you do not want.
> 
> While I do applaud you sharing your story and being open to questions, I do have to say that it appears you are still in denial on many aspects of your past behavior.
> 
> ...


This guy has 20/20 vision because he sees right through the OP's baloney.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

theroad said:


> Another day I find the same story continuing as in an old gangster/mafia movie. There is suppose to be honor amongst thieves.
> :rofl:
> ROTFALMAO


Go away unless you can add something useful.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

uI just read your first few posts in your threads from late 2012. Your ex-wife is broken, but not obviously broken to new men that meet her. But all of her romantic relationships are doomed. And her broken-ness will become more apparent as she keeps repeating her same behaviors over time.

With first husband for ? years, married to him for 7 years, then cheated on him with someone else and left him for you.

With second husband (you) for 8 years, married to you for 6 years, then cheated on you with ? others, then left you for another man.

She pursued you, was infatuated with you, won you over.

She had to be with current other man, was like a "coke fiend" when it came to being with him.

Here is her pattern: She falls madly "in love," stays that way for the usual couple of years. Then settles in and out of force of habit stays with person for a few more years, even though the infatuation has worn off. About 6-7 years out, infatuation has worn off enough that she seeks it out and pursues it with another man, whoever is most suitable that she encounters at that time. It wouldn't surprise me if your wife had several affairs on you, shorter term, that didn't work out, before she arrived at this current other man.[/quote]

Right, she rode the "in love" feelings until they ran out. Never caring that they are just high lust and attraction.



Will_Kane said:


> If it makes you feel any better, she will lose her infatuation with him as well, stay with him for a few years after that out of habit while the infatuation fades further, then eventually cheat on him with a new infatuation "in love" target.


It's a normal pattern. Can we call it a certain type of lifestyle?



Will_Kane said:


> When does it all end? It ends when she can no longer "pull" a "better" or "equal" guy to the one she's with. My guess if she keeps herself attractive she may be able to continue this pattern into her early 60s? Unless she somehow figures it out before then.
> 
> The fact that the "in love" feeling fades after a few years is something I could notice in other people's relationships, and of course in my own, even when I was in high school. Apparently, some people never figure this out.


I know this. I also learned that "love" itself, if you can catch it and look at it correctly, is a slowly growing fire that you can add to and grow. It is a much different thing to "in love" which is more about "hotness", "desireability", "attraction"...


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I agree with all of this.
> 
> My only point was that it is one thing to play a hand in destroying a couple (and their extended family), it's another to play a hand in destroying a couple which have children..


So you destroyed up to 24 more people so what is another 2 more added to the mix. Or were the other 24 not innocent as well.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> No, because at that point I didn't see her as 'mine'. I wasn't yet in love/infatuated with her as much as she was with me, I think. I was on my trip, moving around, doing many things. To me, I saw an individual, I didn't see a wife. That was the level of detachment I felt.


Typical compartmentalizing his and her lives so he could justify his affair.

Has had not learnt anything from his affair.

Still blame shifting using false logic.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, she told me she no longer liked sex with her husband and just did it because she had to and for her own sexual release. She told me repeatedly she thought of me, not him, and that she ached to be with me. *She told me his odor bothered her. She told me the same thing post our D-Day*. There has to be some sort of biological factor underlying the attraction/rejection.


What was up with the odor thing?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

manticore said:


> I had no problems dating or getting ONS with others girls of the same caliber (and single of course), but the sexual tension that she build after some months of advances was engraved in my mind, to the point that in the shower I began jerking thinking in her, until the day she made her move and jump on me without blouse, I kind of say no, but then I just stopped thinking, my instints took over me when she went after my tool (I already had a bonner).
> 
> someone wrote in other thread, when I shared the story that I was kind of raped, of course I never saw it like that, I until today saw it as if I was weak and had poor boundaries.
> 
> I have not shared this on my thread, but that is one the reasons of why I began to lurking 7 years ago about boundaries and infidelity, because it amazed me (after the act) how did I ended doing what I despissed so much, that is also when I stopped seing everything as black and White, and now gray was also an option.


You were not raped. She worked you until she new that if she made the first move you would let your little head take charge and over rule your big head.

This is why when people say I would never do........... and whatever it was they wound up doing it.

To imagine something and what your response would be is not the same as being faced with it for real. Many things never work as planed.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> What was up with the odor thing?


She didn't like his scent anymore because she was looking elsewhere...

After a while of being beaten, I'm sure he did have fear or uncertainty in him and possibly changed his scent.

But when you look outside, many times you will fault find with the BS.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Go away unless you can add something useful.


Not going anywhere.

You do not like reading what I write because you can not face the truth.

You are making excuses and justifying your banging of another man's wife.

There is no justification for an affair.



The truth is always useful. You still deny the truth because you can not accept the truth. Your conscience has you posting here because you seek people to accept your justification for banging another man's WW.

You must think you live in Egypt because you are living in the land of Denial.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> I just read your first few posts in your threads from late 2012. Your ex-wife is broken, but not obviously broken to new men that meet her. But all of her romantic relationships are doomed. And her broken-ness will become more apparent as she keeps repeating her same behaviors over time.
> 
> With first husband for ? years, married to him for 7 years, then cheated on him with someone else and left him for you.
> 
> ...


I know, it's a shame. A pattern has definitely been established. It is an addiction, isn't it? It kind of makes sense seeing that she doesn't drink or do drugs or engage in other addictive behaviors. Love is her high. She uses sex and love to further her sense of entitlement. 

Another part of the pattern: she's having a child with him after only knowing him 1.5 years. She was pregnant after only knowing me 2 years. I wonder if part of that is her way of "locking" the guy in. 

Yes, she's very attractive (a high 7 or a low 8) and talented and maintains herself well. So she will continue to be hit on, but at this point I wonder who would want to be with her 5-10 years down the road when when has 3 (maybe more) children from two different fathers? 

She knows she is flawed but doesn't seem to be able to control it. Or communicate her needs. She admitted OM had faults and red flags; I think she was just too much in the fog. She put herself above her husbands and her children, and that's about all there is to it.

After D-Day, she admitted she had an A with an involved person while we were dating long distance for a year. Even had the balls to introduce me to the guy and count him as a 'friend'. Who knows what she has done with him or others during the past 8 years. Trust me, paternity test for child number two is in the back of my mind.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

theroad said:


> Typical compartmentalizing his and her lives so he could justify his affair.
> 
> Has had not learnt anything from his affair.
> 
> Still blame shifting using false logic.


On the compartamentalization... Yes it is what it is. But for the people who partake in that lifestyle choice it is how it is done.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> She didn't like his scent anymore because she was looking elsewhere...
> 
> After a while of being beaten, I'm sure he did have fear or uncertainty in him and possibly changed his scent.
> 
> But when you look outside, many times you will fault find with the BS.


I agree. The stress (either conscious or subconscious) during her EA to PA probably created physiological changes in me. That on top with a lack of proper exercise and hygiene made things worse.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

theroad said:


> Not going anywhere.
> 
> You do not like reading what I write because you can not face the truth.
> 
> ...


There's no justification for an affair, agreed. Move on.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> The fact that the "in love" feeling fades after a few years is something I could notice in other people's relationships, and of course in my own, even when I was in high school. Apparently, some people never figure this out.


It's likely untrue for her.
She perfectly knows, she doesn't care thou, she embraced this philosophy - at least - since the first time she started cheating on her XH1, she decided it was the right way to live: fall in love, stay there for the time it last and certain necesities need to be met, then she's already ready for foolling around until the next "love" arrives. She's not deluded into thinking luurv last forever, she accepts it ends and she won't renounce to it so she seek a new love.
This is not exactly the issue, many people don't value long term relationships they know they are good for a while, the issue is she has no values and lack morals and empathy, chating on the old partner while she's on the search for the new one doesn't weight on her conscience so she overlaps relationships with no care on how this will impact others, including kids. She just retain the control of the relationsiop until she has all the ducks lined up for the exit. This is a modus operandi that causes no disonance at all.
When luurv with this new OM ends she will cheat on him again and she will sell him the same line of sh1t she sold XBH1 and XBH2, pretending she "knows" how he must feel while she drops him like a hot potato.
Later she will tell herself she actually made him a favor by setting him free (ignoring the horrible ong lasting pain caused by the betrayal and abandonment for the new partner) when years ahead she hear or reads in facebook he has a new woman in his life: life went on afterall, you see?


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I agree. The stress (either conscious or subconscious) during her EA to PA probably created physiological changes in me. That on top with a lack of proper exercise and hygiene made things worse.


Now that I'm thinking about it, hanging in there when you are beaten is pretty stupid. Because it gets worse and worse as time goes on, you really will be lucky if it works out to your advantage.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

theroad said:


> Typical compartmentalizing his and her lives so he could justify his affair.
> 
> Has had not learnt anything from his affair.
> 
> Still blame shifting using false logic.


I'm trying to explain my thought process at the time, not justify the affair retroactively. 

Yes, it was compartmentalization. When you are doing something you know should not be doing but you are also enjoying, you alter your perception of yourself and the situation to suit your own needs.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Now that I'm thinking about it, hanging in there when you are beaten is pretty stupid. Because it gets worse and worse as time goes on, you really will be lucky if it works out to your advantage.


What do you mean by "beaten"? I'm referring to a period of time when I was in the dark about the A, but knew things weren't altogether great in the marriage.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> She told me his odor bothered her. She told me the same thing post our D-Day. There has to be some sort of *biological factor* underlying the attraction/rejection.


Did you ever bring up to her that she said the exact same thing to you about her first husband? I wonder if she is telling new other man now how your smell bothered her, as well as her first husband's?

Scent plays an important part in the mating of deer, and I assume some other animals.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> What do you mean by "beaten"? I'm referring to a period of time when I was in the dark about the A, but knew things weren't altogether great in the marriage.


Once she starts banging an OM and keep going back to him and that desire is growing, you have been "beaten". Very few of them will attempt to maintain the level of maritial obligations that they were. And they still put him over you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Acabado said:


> It's likely untrue for her.
> She perfectly knows, she doesn't care thou, she embraced this philosophy - at least - since the first time she started cheating on her XH1, she decided it was the right way to live: fall in love, stay there for the time it last and certain necesities need to be met, then she's already ready for foolling around until the next "love" arrives. She's not deluded into thinking luurv last forever, she accepts it ends and she won't renounce to it so she seek a new love.
> This is not exactly the issue, many people don't value long term relationships they know they are good for a while, the issue is she has no values and lack morals and empathy, chating on the old partner while she's on the search for the new one doesn't weight on her conscience so she overlaps relationships with no care on how this will impact others, including kids. She just retain the control of the relationsiop until she has all the ducks lined up for the exit. This is a modus operandi that causes no disonance at all.
> When luurv with this new OM ends she will cheat on him again and she will sell him the same line of sh1t she sold XBH1 and XBH2, pretending she "knows" how he must feel while she drops him like a hot potato.
> Later she will tell herself she actually made him a favor by setting him free (ignoring the horrible ong lasting pain caused by the betrayal and abandonment for the new partner) when years ahead she hear or reads in facebook he has a new woman in his life: life went on afterall, you see?


EXACTLY. 

Ultimately, she has embraced this way as her way. 

And deep down inside, she knows she can never fully commit because she doesn't know how to do that. She's with someone until she doesn't want to be, but at the same time she has a huge fear of abandonment. 

I sometimes wonder if she was 'under fathered' and this is the end result. Paging Dr. Freud. And Dr. Phil.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> EXACTLY.
> 
> Ultimately, she has embraced this way as her way.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter how we quote it. Too many of us have been raised to appreciate immediate gratification and take pop culture literally. We don't understand "in love" is fleeting.

So for her when that feeling is gone she thinks it's over, when it is a potential normal part of the process.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> Did you ever bring up to her that she said the exact same thing to you about her first husband? I wonder if she is telling new other man now how your smell bothered her, as well as her first husband's?
> 
> Scent plays an important part in the mating of deer, and I assume some other animals.


She brought it up, actually. She said that's when she "knew", as if her gut instinct was telling her it was over. In terms of attraction.

She didn't say when the loss of attraction started to occur. There was a lot of rewriting going on so I started to tune out what she said as 'valid'. I'd hear it, but I stopped contesting it. There was no point. Some stuff I would validate.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> She brought it up, actually. She said that's when she "knew", as if her gut instinct was telling her it was over. In terms of attraction.
> 
> She didn't say when the loss of attraction started to occur. There was a lot of rewriting going on so I started to tune out what she said as 'valid'. I'd hear it, but I stopped contesting it. There was no point. Some stuff I would validate.


You understood...

I fought that section for 2 or 3 years. Excrutiating pain. I just thought she would wake up and remember how much she had "loved" me...


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Acabado said:


> It's likely untrue for her.
> She perfectly knows, she doesn't care thou, *she embraced this philosophy - at least - since the first time she started cheating on her XH1, she decided it was the right way to live*: fall in love, stay there for the time it last and certain necesities need to be met, then she's already ready for foolling around until the next "love" arrives. *She's not deluded into thinking luurv last forever, she accepts it ends and she won't renounce to it so she seek a new love*.
> This is not exactly the issue, many people don't value long term relationships they know they are good for a while, *the issue is she has no values and lack morals and empathy, chating on the old partner while she's on the search for the new one doesn't weight on her conscience* so she overlaps relationships with no care on how this will impact others, including kids. She just retain the control of the relationsiop until she has all the ducks lined up for the exit. This is a modus operandi that causes no disonance at all.
> *When luurv with this new OM ends she will cheat on him again and she will sell him the same line of sh1t* she sold XBH1 and XBH2, pretending she "knows" how he must feel while she drops him like a hot potato.
> *Later she will tell herself she actually made him a favor by setting him free* (ignoring the horrible ong lasting pain caused by the betrayal and abandonment for the new partner) when years ahead she hear or reads in facebook he has a new woman in his life: life went on afterall, you see?


You are probably right.



staystrong said:


> A confession.
> 
> First confession was a lie. She said she had met someone on a trip, slept with him twice and had feelings for him.
> 
> ...


I wonder if she is now telling new other man that she doesn't feel she is supposed to be with the same person her whole life, that marriage isn't sacred. Or does she keep those little tidbits to herself until she leaves for good?


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Once she starts banging an OM and keep going back to him and that desire is growing, you have been "beaten". Very few of them will attempt to maintain the level of maritial obligations that they were. And they still put him over you.


So yeah, she put him "over" you. And maybe she is laying up with you still and sitting close to you. However, in her mind he is #1, so you are being marginalized and over time it will deteriorate your sexual and other confidence.

Very few of them keep you #1 when they are doing their transgressions.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> It doesn't matter how we quote it. Too many of us have been raised to appreciate immediate gratification and take pop culture literally. We don't understand "in love" is fleeting.
> 
> So for her when that feeling is gone she thinks it's over, when it is a potential normal part of the process.


Are people that naive?

She told me at one point last year that her and AP's "lovey doveyness" had died down (big surprise) but that she was still in love, of course. 

I think during the A, during the idealization period (and this happens in normal relationships, too), we are selecting someone for the feelings of the moment but also their potential. But some of us set high expectations, which often are not met.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> You are probably right.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if she is now telling new other man that she doesn't feel she is supposed to be with the same person her whole life, that marriage isn't sacred. Or does she keep those little tidbits to herself until she leaves for good?


I don't know. I guess they are both serial cheaters to a degree, and I sometimes wonder if that's not part of their bond. That they "get" each other in that regard.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Are people that naive?


Yes! Most of us couldn't have been educated on it until we got cheated on. How many parents explain this point, I never heard of it...



staystrong said:


> She told me at one point last year that her and AP's "lovey doveyness" had died down (big surprise) but that she was still in love, of course.


Of course. As long as you talk to her, it will make what she was doing with him seem like more.



staystrong said:


> I think during the A, during the idealization period (and this happens in normal relationships, too), we are selecting someone for the feelings of the moment but also their potential. But some of us set high expectations, which often are not met.


Here goes the deal though. Since we are more mature and understand these things and how they work. We CAN take advantage of some of the old cheating systems even better... Knowing they will come and go and hedge ourselves with several of the cheaters.

But even better than that for me, is a love that grows over time, someone who knows me, who also understands "in love" and we manage to keep it going, even adding to it over time.

With the cheating it was just having that many people in your business never worked out well for me. Also the reputation of being untrustworthy or a player doesn't help me for what i'm doing in life.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

theroad said:


> So you destroyed up to 24 more people so what is another 2 more added to the mix. Or were the other 24 not innocent as well.


I get what you are trying to say but I just don't agree with your logic, Road. 

At the time, those people were an abstraction. I didn't know them, I had never met them, etc., so it was hard to take their feelings into account. It wasn't as if I knew if I pushed this button then immediately 24 people would be crying out in pain. The affair was secret, no one was ever supposed to know. Yes, I was a scoundrel for getting involved with her, I think that's been established. I'm just saying when you measure the depth of impact, it is greater on children in both the short and long term. I did not want to break up a family (even a family joined through marriage), and I suppose if I had known those people, or even met them, or spent more time around her husband, then I never would have gotten involved. At the time, it was almost like a random encounter and a failure to do the right thing. A lot of pain was created as a result. For a lot of people, yes.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Yes! Most of us couldn't have been educated on it until we got cheated on. How many parents explain this point, I never heard of it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I am surprised by this. I just thought it was common knowledge that people knew there was a 'honeymoon' period to any relationship and then highs and lows, good times and bad times, but you stick by each other. At least people in a serious committed relationship. It sounds funny, I know, because I did not apply that view to her first M. I think it's because I was fed a story about how it had fallen apart, and was therefore unsalvageable. And that we had met in this way, that we had feelings for one another, that it was wrong but felt right. This is what cheaters think. Been there, done that. 

Again, my parents are still married. My dad left a good position at a company because of the crowd he worked with. They were traveling for work and bringing back girlfriends from other countries and dumping their wives. Both my dad and my mom couldn't stand it.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Yes you were fed a story. But you wanted to believe that story because it was in line with what you wanted. That's how rationalization works. You're a smart man. You know that what gets told is usually not the complete truth. You know to always take things with a grain of salt. Yet when she told you things you fully believed her. Why? Because you wanted to. That's not necessarily a criticism. That's human nature.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bfree said:


> Yes you were fed a story. But you wanted to believe that story because it was in line with what you wanted. That's how rationalization works. You're a smart man. You know that what gets told is usually not the complete truth. You know to always take things with a grain of salt. Yet when she told you things you fully believed her. Why? Because you wanted to. That's not necessarily a criticism. That's human nature.


Yes, that is human nature. Also a lack of experience in a very long term relationship. I didn't have that experience but she did. So I suppose I felt less in a position to judge, and that everything wasn't as black and white as I had once believed. 

But those conversations occurred after we had already been physical together, which I guess is the reverse of most affairs. 

We'd already broken her husband's trust, so at that point it was probably just a matter of justifying ourselves.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Once she starts banging an OM and keep going back to him and that desire is growing, you have been "beaten". Very few of them will attempt to maintain the level of maritial obligations that they were. And they still put him over you.


*I do know that I was totally in the dark regarding my skanky XW's simultaneous affairs with both of her out-of-town BF's, all while thinking that she was being a more than model wife. Evidence, much later revealed that she had indeed slept with both, then came right back home to perform her marital and wifely duties to her husband by sleeping with me, greatly, I would think, to defer any unneeded suspicion!.

So exactly what is the mindset of the OM obviously knowing that his affair partner is still banging her duped husband when she goes back home to him? Does that, in and of itself, really bother him?

I mean, had I actually known what my XW was doing on her roadtrips, I think I would have contacted both of the OM's wives and told them something to the effect that I had terminal gonorhea!*


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I do know that I was totally in the dark regarding my skanky XW's simultaneous affairs with both of her out-of-town BF's, all whilke thinking that she was being a more than model wife. Evidence, much later showed that she had slept with both, then came right back home to perform her marital and wifely duties to her husband by sleeping with me, greatly I think to defer any suspicion!.*


*

Your level of priority wasn't adjusted in the sex act? I mean you could not notice any difference?



arbitrator said:



What is the mindset of the OM obviously knowing that his affair partner is still banging her duped husband when she goes back home to him? Does that, in and of itself, really bother him?

Click to expand...

It's either from they don't care, to they must be the better man since they are banging the guys wife. They never look at it as a detriment unless they fall in love.



arbitrator said:



I mean, had I actually known what my XW was doing on her roadtrips, I think I would have contacted both of the OM's wives and told them something to the effect that I had terminal gonnorhea!

Click to expand...

*You should have.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Your level of priority wasn't adjusted in the sex act? I mean you could not notice any difference?
> 
> *Coming from a rich woman, it seemed to be little more than placating a "don't kiss me," "drop-your drawers," "wham-bam-thank-you-maam," "hurry up and get off," "non-orgasmic for her," "no oral sex either way," "I'll lay here while you get your rocks off" sex, much like I would greatly suspect that a prostitute would do! You could definitely tell that her heart just wasn't really into it any longer!*
> 
> ...


*Had I only known and not been so damn naive!*


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> It's either from they don't care, to they must be the better man since they are banging the guys wife. They never look at it as a detriment unless they fall in love.


This is fairly accurate.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Thanks for sharing, Manticore. Let me ask you, how old was she?
> Was it only once? What happened after that for you? Did you ever meet her husband? Did you feel guilt and regret for him, or was it more for yourself? Do you know what happened to her, or if she cheated again?


*how old was she?*
24, I was 21 but I have always looked younger, some people though that I was I hisghschool years when that happened.

* Was it only once?*
yes only once.

*What happened after that for you?*
we talked about the whole situation, about the mutual attraction and how it was wrong, I quit the job next week (I was disswasher, and I didn't really needed the job, I was taking a break from college and staying with a friend doing nothing but patying and being lazzy), I quit and avoided her (mostly cell pone, she didn't know where I lived).

*Did you ever meet her husband?*
Never, I was in that job like 5 months, she told the other waitresses that her husband had an accident and he was now in wheelchair and he couldn't perform sex anymore, I never knew if it was true or not, we never talked about him.

*Did you feel guilt and regret for him, or was it more for yourself?*
at the very beginning I was more worried about her marital status than her husband, I was not thinking about him getting hurt but about what I was taught for years that marriage is forever and messing with married people is wrong, I mean marriage was supposed to be forever, so I keep thinking "no she is married it can not happen"

then Little before it happened I was more self abosorved in my own feelings and desires, she was hot, all my friends telling me that I had to bang her, all the waitresses playing cupid, the manager that had some affairs with the witresses braging about his conquests (it was like averybody supporting infidelity).

then when it happened I was more occupied with resisting in doing it again, I really wanted to do it again, there is a ego bost knowing that she choosed you over her husband, I knew that I could had lots of sex with just making a phone call and wanting it, so it was really hard, I began to patying even more to resist the whole situation.

finally when I calmed down I feel bad about her husband, was dissapointed in myself and feel sorry for him, let me fathom why in the next question.

*Do you know what happened to her, or if she cheated again?*

I don't know what heppend to her but I bet she did it again.

see, whe she began to hit on me, she didn't know my story or background, she didn't know I was being rebellious and taking a break from college, so the only thing she knew is that I was a 21 year old dishwasher, so she was not looking for a new man to replace the other (I was younger than her, with a low salaray job and for what she knew, no education) so she was looking just to get laid with someone she found attractive, I feel bad about her husband because I knew she will keep doing it until I guess she finally could found someone worth to Exchange him for. (I have had 10 years to think about the whole situation).


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks Manticore.

I respect you. Don't let the absolutist d!cks on this board try and bring you down. 

You were young and you got caught up with lust of an attractive woman. You made a mistake. You were weak, horny, and presented with opportunity. But, look, the problem was ultimately with HER. You just didn't know better than to give her the stiff arm. You didn't realize that the pleasure of it would ultimately lead to you feeling bad about it. You learned from that. That's the difference here. There are men out there who would not have batted an eye about having sex with that woman despite her marital status. For you, it caused you consternation. You understand you hurt someone else and yourself. 

Ultimately, this is a support forum for BSs and the occasional WS who needs defogging. But, it's also preparation for people like yourself who will one day want to be in a serious M. I don't know your relationship status, but I think you will make a good partner for somebody. Take care.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

When you are the OM/OW you tell the world cheating is okay in your world. Why on earth are shocked when you are cheated on?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Because I believed she/we had been reformed and were meant to be together.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Man you have been getting on my nerves since previous posts in other threads, I don't even know why I am answering you, maybe to no let other user have the missconception that I condone infidelity under certain circumstances (which of course is not the case)



illwill said:


> No. If you have a affair you choose to do it. If you are the affair partner, you still must choose to cheat.


Agree with what you said here, but I choosed not to do it n many ocassions that she invited me or suggested to go a private place by ourselves, until the day it happened, she literally threw herself at me half naked and I just stopped thinking and I even Kind of remember feeling hot air comming out of my body and I stopped thinking.

we men are taught when we became preteens that we have to go and conquests women, that the man that is banging many attractive women is cool and worth of admiration, literally there was not a single person from my gender that told me not to do it when I shared the story with them and I still keep deflecting her, in the end I still did it and I am not proud, but it help me to not be so damn judgamental about everything in life. 




illwill said:


> Once you make that decision you lose the right to say you are innocent.


I have never said that I am innocent, I have always said that I was weak and I have no real notion of boundaries, and I don't mean my boundaries for my actions, I mean how to make people to respect my boundaries, and that age I thought that if a keep deflecting her and avoding his invvitations and advances she would understand that I didn't want to be involved with her, but I guess she took it as a personal challenge.



illwill said:


> And if you say anything else you are blameshifting which maked me wonder if you really changed.


you know nothing about me, how many man at 21 being constatly persued by a beautiful woman would say no, I can at least tell you that the 8 man I confided my sutation told me to do it, their arguments were those from Young men thinking with the d*ck and 0 emphaty but they were right at many things:

- I was originally from another state so if I had any problem I could just return to my state and get detached for everything back there.
- I didn't need the job so if got in trouble I could quit in a second and dissapear.
- her husband couldn't had sex so I was covering a need.
- she was the one making advances so if it was not me it was gonna be other.
- she didn't want a realtionship and knew I was from another state and I was gonna return eventually so it was fun sex without resposability.

even if all of that were truth I still did not wanted to do it, and I didn't care that they keep calling me p*ssy or stupid for not doing it when they were pressuring me, in the end I did it, it was wrong of me but I never justified myself in any way, I always considered myself weak, inmature and with poor boundaries.

I am not a saint I was so energetically against it because not long ago before that my family was teared appart by infidelity so I did not wanted nothing to do with it.

and guess what, I did not changed, I am still the same person that hates infidelty, I am the same person that thinks OM and OW as the WS must face consequences for their actions.

If anything I improved myself, I now know that anyone can fail and that those who said I would never cheat are wrong, anyone can cheat, cheating is easy and exciting, if you accept that it can happen to you, then you can prevent it, if you are aware that you can fail as any normal human then you can realize that there are ways to guard yourself from doing it, I learned that you must not just respect other persons boundaries with your actions but also make them respect yours.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Knowing her husband as a person. *The moral aspect of hurting another person.
> *
> Getting to know her flaws, issues, or secretive manner better. Maybe. She has so many redeeming qualities, though, that they are easy to overlook when falling in love. There were no major 'red flags' in terms of our connection. There was enough overlap and mutual attraction to override those things. Were we a perfect match? No. Would we have gotten together if we were both single? Yes, I think so.
> 
> Obviously, the ability to deceive someone who loves you at the level that she did is the major red flag. I can only see that in hindsight as a BS. I didn't understand the depth of the lies, deception and disrespect. Again, my ignorance or my willingness to put blinders on for sex, love, excitement and the promise of a future together.


Glad to see this. Would you say it comes from having been a BS yourself now or just from having grown as a person?


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, that is human nature. Also a lack of experience in a very long term relationship. I didn't have that experience but she did. So I suppose I felt less in a position to judge, and that everything wasn't as black and white as I had once believed.
> 
> But those conversations occurred after we had already been physical together, which I guess is the reverse of most affairs.
> 
> We'd already broken her husband's trust, so at that point it was probably just a matter of justifying ourselves.


Thing is, as a young man I'm not 100% sure I could have resisted.

As an adult I would like to think I could have resisted but as a young man, a horny, attractive woman throwing her self at me?

I don't know, how many men as teens/ early twenties could?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

manticore said:


> Man you have been getting on my nerves since previous posts in other threads, I don't even know why I am answering you, maybe to no let other user have the missconception that I condone infidelity under certain circumstances (which of course is not the case)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please dont get confused thinking i care if you like me. Many 21 yr old men turn down sex with married women. Many. I did.

Your circle of friends tend to have the same values as you. So, asking them was more about getting thier acceptance to justify what you were already gonna do.

It cannot happen to me. Because i control my actions. Trust me as a filmmaker i have actress always making offers.

And if all i know about you is what you shared here, then i know a lot.

And your post was one excuse after the other. Read what you just wrote. Simply say you cheated and leave it at that. Forget about her advances and your age. 

Also, by your own admission you have not changed. So, how can you also say you have learned not to do this? Did you improve yourself or not?

Ill bow out.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

illwill said:


> Please dont get confused thinking i care if you like me. Many 21 yr old men turn down sex with married women. Many. I did.
> 
> Your circle of friends tend to have the same values as you. So, asking them was more about getting thier acceptance to justify what you were already gonna do.
> 
> ...


Puff, really I was so dumb trying to reason with you, for you all is White and black I guess, and again you keep making stataments and conclusions about my behaviour with your infynite wisdom that have nothing to do with what really happened back then, but at this point keep answering you will just waste my time and will encourage you to keep posting without aporting useful contributions.

have a nice life


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Because I believed she/we had been reformed and were meant to be together.


just as there are many kinds of WS there is also many kinds of OM/OW.

some of them are also victims, this is in mosts cases applies with woman who are lied about the marital status of the person or deceived in the sense that divorce prodecedure is on going.

still becoming a third party is wrong but I undesrtand in your situation how you saw if you were just being part in something unavoidable.

we (including me) always see OMs as and evil entities without remorse, morals and values, although the set of mind is not the same for every OM.

Is not the same being a marital preadator as "findingmyway" who enjoyed scoring many married women at the same time and did not care what happened to them after he had his fun, that being a OM as "pastOM" who was truly in love with the WS who lied to him and she was the one making advances and deceiving him telling him how awfull and abusive her husband was, he was prepared to buy a house in the same district as the BH to facilatate the coparenting and was prepared to pay for IC for her kids he read tons of articles of hos to facilitate the relationship wit the BH, and when he recieved the NC letter of how she hurt her marvelous husband with him, "pastOM" realized that he was played and almost attempted suicide and lost evertyhing for her.

I have many times read threads here where all of us demonize the OMs and talk about the WS as being in the fog, but in many cases I think that in fact was the WS the agresor and probably the OM is buying all the crap about she being a victim of a abusive spouse (still messing with a third party is wrong but the real manipulation comes for the WS).


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Figured as much. 

Oh, and cheaters always think of affairs as gray. The faithful tend to see it as black and white.

Because it is.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

illwill said:


> Figured as much.
> 
> Oh, and cheaters always think of affairs as gray. The faithful tend to see it as black and white.
> 
> Because it is.


I know I should not, but I will endulge myself respoding you once more time mister perfect.

before and after my experience, I had also been hit many times by women in relationships (married, with BF) I also "as you proudly brag about it" reject them and even lost a friendship for being honest with a close friend, is not the same being hit one or twice that being pursued day after day for a long period, for you may sound as excuse, but it was like that, I never allowed proximity or intamacy with her and much less when we were alone until it happened, I still failed and accept it as I accept my failures, I have never been unfaithful in my side but I was a third party once and that brought me here.

but I guess that you in your absolute perfection would have been able to act different, good for you is a shame that you will never find a person as perfect as you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Ironic !


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Philat said:


> Glad to see this. Would you say it comes from having been a BS yourself now or just from having grown as a person?


I was never proud of it in the first place, though I don't think during the trip I was on that I was self-reflecting that much. The trip had been about adventure, I had already met a few girls, and in a way the first night with her was like something out of a movie. It was surreal. I was out of my normal context, and there was a very strong connection. In a way, it was also connection of mutual selfishness. Mutually big egos. She tested and I reciprocated. We were both people who were willing to break 'that rule'. But underneath the glaze of sneakiness and eroticism and amorality, we were still two people that were human and had made a connection, one which ultimately became a deep connection. She became my best friend, lover, wife, and we were both people who were fairly empathic and selfless in other areas of our lives. But grossly entitled with respect the 'right' to be together even if caused another person pain. I had never been in deep deep love before or had a broken heart, so I didn't know the depth of pain involved. My previous break-ups had been mostly mutual or at least amicable, without any deception. They were emotional but they had been done right. Honorably and with communication and sizing up the relationship. I had initiated a break-up once so I did witness the pain of someone being 'dumped' but it was a short-lived long-distance relationship with no professions of love.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

illwill said:


> Figured as much.
> 
> Oh, and cheaters always think of affairs as gray. The faithful tend to see it as black and white.
> 
> Because it is.


Fidelity is black and white. 

She was not faithful to her husband, Manticore was not faithful to his values.


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## notadoormat (Jun 1, 2013)

thank you for making yourself avail for questions. My wh was also an om as she was engaged.my questkon is...how do bs tell if their wh loved the ow? I was given so many lies deflections etc.he said he liked her had a crush on her. But did not fall in love. I dont buy that. He says his feelings for me were pretty much gone prior. Is their signs for bs to decipher if it was a fwb or love. He said as a deflection ...i didnt fall in love. I need sex to fall in love. Thats when he admitted to the friendship. Post dday i asked. He said no because only 6-7 occasions of sex due to busy schedule. Her looks. He said he ashamed of how she looked. Thats why i never thought truly he would. I know her. But he could not break up friendship and moved out. She was engaged to someone else supposedly. And moved two years after he moved out to her second fiance. It still bugs me not knowing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

notadoormat said:


> thank you for making yourself avail for questions. My wh was also an om as she was engaged.*my questkon is...how do bs tell if their wh loved the ow? *I was given so many lies deflections etc.he said he liked her had a crush on her. But did not fall in love. I dont buy that. He says his feelings for me were pretty much gone prior. Is their signs for bs to decipher if it was a fwb or love. He said as a deflection ...i didnt fall in love. I need sex to fall in love. Thats when he admitted to the friendship. Post dday i asked. He said no because only 6-7 occasions of sex due to busy schedule. Her looks. He said he ashamed of how she looked. Thats why i never thought truly he would. I know her. But he could not break up friendship and moved out. She was engaged to someone else supposedly. And moved two years after he moved out to her second fiance. It still bugs me not knowing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As a OM and BS, I can't really answer that. 

He had an EA which became a PA. 

He's lying to you about the humber of times. Without fault, they lie about the number of times. If was 6 or 7 times, he should be tell you whether it was 6 or 7. Where it was, when it was, what they did. 

You may never get the truth out of him. Whether he told her "I love you" or not, and really.. whether he actually meant it or just said it at the time. 

You sound like you are still in a lot of pain. I hope you are both in counseling and I hope your H is being remorseful and transparent. Doesn't sound like he is. He's still hiding what it really meant to him.


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## notadoormat (Jun 1, 2013)

when he first confessed he asked if i wanted to know. He said six different times but a few if them were hotels. After wk then first thing in am before noon. So really one occasion is two days. He now offering M counseling as a desperate last ditch attempt. This is painful as i wirked w her and everyone knows. Its sucks when others know more about spouse than you do. I feel still humiliated n violated. Cheaters expose private marital info. He just offered the counseling a few mins ago. I said no. I abs hate him. Or i feel abs hatred of him for the amt if disrespect..stonewalling..so much more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

notadoormat said:


> when he first confessed he asked if i wanted to know. He said six different times but a few if them were hotels. After wk then first thing in am before noon. So really one occasion is two days. He now offering M counseling as a desperate last ditch attempt. This is painful as i wirked w her and everyone knows. Its sucks when others know more about spouse than you do. I feel still humiliated n violated. Cheaters expose private marital info. He just offered the counseling a few mins ago. I said no. I abs hate him. Or i feel abs hatred of him for the amt if disrespect..stonewalling..so much more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. Very humiliating. I hope the OW is viewed as the skank she is.

Take care of yourself. You have every right to hate him. Don't let it consume you, though. I know it's hard not to.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Did you have any compassion at all for the betrayed spouse? *Not as much as I should have. I was enjoying myself too much. *
> 
> Has your recent experience given you an insight into what he felt? *Absolutely. No one deserves to go through that kind of pain. *
> 
> ...


Sorry, I never answered this. Please see bold above.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Hmmm sounds like you are minimizing a bit.
> 
> Marriage = family, no matter if you have kids or not.


I've been thinking about this over the weekend, and I have changed my mind. I agree with what you and the other posters have said. 

It was very difficult for me to not be a part of her family anymore. I felt like I had almost lost my own family.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

If this relationship went to pieces a while or so down the line, would you reconcile with her?


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I firmly believe I was an exit affair, for reasons I haven't stated yet.


The last comment is what I think about spouses affair partners - they get off on the power of having something "up" on others. They have the "up" on the husband because he has free rein on and opinion on a marriage he knows nothing about or the history behind what the spouse is saying. I find people like this dangerous....why not just disclose openly your information on this sight and for cripes sake show some remorse for damae you caused another person. No you see this as an opportunity - just like you saw the affair....and you do not hold any answers for anyone here other than showing lack of compassion for others.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Fidelity is black and white.
> 
> She was not faithful to her husband, Manticore was not faithful to his values.


I totally agree with your comment, what I wrote about gray tone is really directed in the sense that I am not an absolutist as before when it comes to reconcilation.

before reconcilation was out of the question no matter what, now under the right circumstances (like a WS really remorseful, ownership of resposability, total transparency, heavy lifting) I think that reconcilation is worth the try.

but still with many considerations of how the affair or act of infidelity was conducted, is not the same a 3 years affair where the WS was caught that a drunken ONS where the WS came clean.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> I just read your first few posts in your threads from late 2012. Your ex-wife is broken, but not obviously broken to new men that meet her. But all of her romantic relationships are doomed. And her broken-ness will become more apparent as she keeps repeating her same behaviors over time.
> 
> With first husband for ? years, married to him for 7 years, then cheated on him with someone else and left him for you.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY like my wife. _Uncanny_.

She ended her engagement / left her fiance for me in 2004.
She separated from me and starting seeing her OM in late November 2012.
She then started 'seeing' a guy I thought was a friend of mine in Aug-Sept 2013.
Currently she is 'seeing' no-one.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

manticore said:


> I totally agree with your comment, what I wrote about gray tone is really directed in the sense that I am not an absolutist as before when it comes to reconcilation.
> 
> before reconcilation was out of the question no matter what, now under the right circumstances (like a WS really remorseful, ownership of resposability, total transparency, heavy lifting) I think that reconcilation is worth the try.
> 
> but still with many considerations of how the affair or act of infidelity was conducted, is not the same a 3 years affair where the WS was caught that a drunken ONS where the WS came clean.


"how", is like asking did she stab you in the left nut or put your right nut in a vice and crank it... drunken, oh, that's so much better... she's only a wh0re when she drinks, awesome... now you can trust her as long as you know she'll never have a drink again... A 3 year affair, the person may actually believe all the 'love' crap and not just drop trou for the first guy that asks after a couple beers. Did they confess out of guilt, or to hurt you.. Yea, I'm pretty sure they both suck..


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> If this relationship went to pieces a while or so down the line, would you reconcile with her?


No.

I wanted that for a long time but I don't now.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> The last comment is what I think about spouses affair partners - they get off on the power of having something "up" on others. They have the "up" on the husband because he has free rein on and opinion on a marriage he knows nothing about or the history behind what the spouse is saying. I find people like this dangerous....why not just disclose openly your information on this sight and for cripes sake show some remorse for damae you caused another person. No you see this as an opportunity - just like you saw the affair....and you do not hold any answers for anyone here other than showing lack of compassion for others.


Hmm... thinking about this. 

You're absolutely correct about me not knowing their real history. That's plain as day.

I did not feel "one up" on the husband in the sense you are describing. I mean, of course we would talk about their relationship at times. She talked highly of him in many ways. I met him briefly and I could tell he was a good guy. We weren't laughing behind his back, nor would we spend time denigrating him. She would make remarks about him, and at times I would contest her on those remarks. I had my own opinions. However, she did point to the troubles in her marriage and I accepted them as factual. It wasn't possible for me to envision their home life together, and the facade of normalcy that she was probably putting on. 

It's been a long time, so I don't recollect the exchanges or the details. The part I felt the most guilt about was when she would call him from one of our trips. To let him know she was fine, she missed him, etc. This happened a couple of times. That's when it would hit me that I was acting like a lowlife and an innocent guy was completely in the dark. I do feel compassion for him. After being a BS myself, I felt immense shame and regret for what I had done to him. I think I'm probably just emotionally numb these days so feelings may not come across well in my writing. 

Regarding the exit affair part, I did talk a bit about that. She had already had a PA (or one that I know of). At the time, for me, if someone was cheating on their spouse, it meant they didn't love them. I think my ex probably felt the same way about herself, that she was no longer "in love" and therefore not capable of being a wife to him. That the act of cheating was the proof to her. My other reasoning is that she left him (ostensibly for me) after only knowing me for several months and only seeing each other occasionally. To me, that is someone who has completely checked out of their relationship but doesn't have the courage to divorce.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Hmm... thinking about this.
> 
> You're absolutely correct about me not knowing their real history. That's plain as day.
> 
> ...


Would you have done it again and put all your eggs in that basket knowing how it turned out?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Hmm... thinking about this.
> 
> You're absolutely correct about me not knowing their real history. That's plain as day.
> 
> ...


*This passage so aptly describes my skanky XW to a tee. I now theorize that she had checked out of our marriage, and only stayed married to me rather than to divorce primarily to keep from being ostracized by her family and friends. That's when she hooks up with her OMen on FB. Her EA with the best friend of her deceased husband, who she spent countless hours and texts with on the cell-phone with while she was on business in Hawaii. Not a week after she returned to the mainland, she started her 3 hour road trips to see him at his abode(where I now believe that they consummated the PA), telling me that she was going to that area for business, often staying 2-3 days at a time. All I was now being utilized for was a ranch hand and a caretaker by her. And when she came back home, she placated me with an occasional non-kissing, unenthusiastic, "hurry-up-and-get-off," missionary sex largely to keep me both happy and simultaneously treated greatly like a mushroom: just kept in the dark and fed a steady ration of crap!

What really chaps me to no end was later finding out that she was screwing us both all at the same time ~ him on the road and me back at home! It still makes me feel dirty as hell!*


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *This passage so aptly describes my skanky XW to a tee. I now theorize that she had checked out of our marriage, and only stayed married to me rather than to divorce primarily to keep from being ostracized by her family and friends. That's when she hooks up with her OMen on FB. Her EA with the best friend of her deceased husband, who she spent countless hours and texts with on the cell-phone with while she was on business in Hawaii. Not a week after she returned to the mainland, she started her 3 hour road trips to see him at his abode, telling me that she was going to that area for business, often staying 2-3 days at a time. All I was now being utilized for was a ranch hand and a caretaker by her. And when she came back home, she placated me with an occasional non-kissing, unenthusiastic, "hurry-up-and-get-off," missionary sex largely to keep me both happy and simultaneously treated greatly like a mushroom: just kept in the dark and fed a steady ration of crap!
> 
> What really chaps me to no end was later finding out that she was screwing us both all at the same time ~ him on the road and me back at home! It still makes me feel dirty as hell!*


That sounds pretty nasty.
Go take a shower right now!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It's too difficult to say yes or no. 

NO, because I understand the hurt it causes. Too many people have been hurt. 

YES, because I wouldn't know my children if I had not. 


I mean, here I am, nearing 40 and "stuck" in a foreign country where I am not fluent, I'm divorced and missing my kids half the time and limited job opportunities. I had a beautiful wife whom I adored, a family life and blue skies ahead. To completely honest, if I could turn back the clock, I wouldn't turn it back to when we met and avoid her. I would turn it back to a year before the A, and work on my myself and my marriage. Does that make me evil?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> It's too difficult to say yes or no.
> 
> NO, because I understand the hurt it causes. Too many people have been hurt.
> 
> ...


If you could still have your same kids, but pass up the section with her, cheating and all and you end up with a great lady who is happy to take care of all of her maritial obligations and is loyal, I'm pretty sure you would've passed it up.

Theres a group cheating right now that I know of, they are 10 years younger than me. I was telling them, that we did the same thing and half the men got set back 5 or 10 years as a result. Also that some of the men where banging the other guys wives through the leverage and the fact their is no honor among thieves.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's too difficult to say yes or no.
> 
> NO, because I understand the hurt it causes. Too many people have been hurt.
> 
> ...


*It's really tough to visualize what might happen if some third party throws the prospects of hot, steamy sex in your face enough ~ but in my case, it was my wife throwing it into her OMen's face, when it certainly appears that they most gladly availed themselves and graciously accepted her overtures. 

Not to even to mention the countless encores!*


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> If you could still have your same kids, but pass up the section with her, cheating and all and you end up with a great lady who is happy to take care of all of her maritial obligations and is loyal, I'm pretty sure you would've passed it up.


Yes, that's true.



treyvion said:


> Theres a group cheating right now that I know of, they are 10 years younger than me. I was telling them, that we did the same thing and half the men got set back 5 or 10 years as a result. Also that some of the men where banging the other guys wives through the leverage and the fact their is no honor among thieves.


I bet when one of them falls, there will be a domino effect. That is if the wives know each other.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Hmm... thinking about this.
> 
> You're absolutely correct about me not knowing their real history. That's plain as day.
> 
> ...


I will give you credit for answering the questions in a forthright manner. Okay, you are willing to give advice but let me provide some first. When she was sharing about her relationship with you and both of you were trying to make it "right" in your heads - you KNEW it was wrong because to be honest WHENEVER a woman starts sharing about their relationship with their spouse or bf, I know it is wrong. I know intuitively something is amiss with this. You did too or you have boundary issues - either one is on you. 

Now be honest part of your ego got off on having someone else's man interested in you, confiding in you, and THAT was part of the attraction, wasn't it? You came here to offer advice well firstly be honest (I respect what you said thus far). 

Now you say you felt like a low life when she would call him and tell him she was alright but not low enough to stop it or to confront her with the truth? Cmon, you got off on the sex? You were getting yours and that's all that mattered. So in fact you were being a low life....sorry but true. 

You feel compassion for him NOW because you see what she did to him and you see how she strung him along because she is doing the same to you. This is nothing more than karma. 

Now once again to "make it right" you say she checked out and had an "exit affair" BUT that is only by her word. If so, why did she call her husband at the hotel when you were together...listen either she checked out or not...no both of you were playing an innocent husband who was probably providing for his family and had good motives and making it right. 

"not capable of being in love" how does having an affair make anyone more capable? Listen, again you got yours and that's all that mattered....sorry. And in the end...you got yours...

Now I will share a similar story to yours....when me and my ex got together - we were both involved with other people (not married but dating). Her boyfriend was away working and she told me he did not mind if she dated other people. I believed her. So I ended my relationship with my girlfriend and started dating her. She dropped her boyfriend and never ever spoke with him again...I thought "wow, how does someone do that" I mean I still spoke with my ex-girlfriend. THEN one night we were out and a guy on the varsity soccer team asked her out and she told me about it and told me she was going she stated that we were only "dating"...I look back at all these and they were signs of someone with no boundaries....and I am sure you can relate to that...sorry you got your own - I mean, I am really sorry.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

russell28 said:


> "how", is like asking did she stab you in the left nut or put your right nut in a vice and crank it... drunken, oh, that's so much better... she's only a wh0re when she drinks, awesome... now you can trust her as long as you know she'll never have a drink again... A 3 year affair, the person may actually believe all the 'love' crap and not just drop trou for the first guy that asks after a couple beers. Did they confess out of guilt, or to hurt you.. Yea, I'm pretty sure they both suck..


of course the view of reconcilation is totally subjetive, there are users that if there was an EA but not PA, are fine with it, while other also consider a EA totally unacceptable as the person allowed him/herself to have feelings for someone else.

the subject of reconcilation will never be standardized, and those who consider reconcilation out of the table after any kind of affair (EA, PA, ONS, short, long), are in their right and have their valid points to support it.

I was just talking of my own subjetive point of view


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I will give you credit for answering the questions in a forthright manner. Okay, you are willing to give advice but let me provide some first. When she was sharing about her relationship with you and both of you were trying to make it "right" in your heads - you KNEW it was wrong because to be honest WHENEVER a woman starts sharing about their relationship with their spouse or bf, I know it is wrong. I know intuitively something is amiss with this. You did too or you have boundary issues - either one is on you.
> 
> *Our affair did not start out like affairs normally do. We were physical within a few days of knowing each other. Boundaries had already been crossed. It's not like we had a long conversation about her marriage before it happened. *
> 
> ...


In bold.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Yea my relationship with my ex started in university we wee both single. I see us as on the same boat (although I was not with a married woman) - but both fell for similar type people. Non commital.....I am just pointing out there were signs and you thought (as did I) you were getting this wonderful person and (although she is a good person) you got a person you did not think you were getting. Again, I am sorry you are here.

I will tell you I am really skeptical of what the opposite gender tell me now.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Yea my relationship with my ex started in university we wee both single. I see us as on the same boat (although I was not with a married woman) - but both fell for similar type people. Non commital.....I am just pointing out there were signs and you thought (as did I) you were getting this wonderful person and (although she is a good person) you got a person you did not think you were getting. Again, I am sorry you are here.


I see my ex has a serial monogamist who will latch onto a new serious relationship before letting go of the last one. She lasted 8 years with her first H, then 8 years with me, who knows with the next guy. It's a commitment to a real extent. It's not boyfriend/girlfriend stuff, but its not what marriage is supposed to be, either. 



bigtone128 said:


> I will tell you I am really skeptical of what the opposite gender tell me now.


At least you're learning this stuff at a younger age than a lot of other people do.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

manticore said:


> of course the view of reconcilation is totally subjetive, there are users that if there was an EA but not PA, are fine with it, while other also consider a EA totally unacceptable as the person allowed him/herself to have feelings for someone else.
> 
> the subject of reconcilation will never be standardized, and those who consider reconcilation out of the table after any kind of affair (EA, PA, ONS, short, long), are in their right and have their valid points to support it.
> 
> I was just talking of my own subjetive point of view


I was just using sarcasm to illustrate my point, not directed at you in any way..


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> I will tell you I am really skeptical of what the opposite gender tell me now.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

agree but lets be honest in two points here, this goes both ways (both genders have lying manipulative people) and you just learn it with experience, does not matter if you hear of other people being manipulative or unloyal in their relationships, everyone always like to think that they take the right choices and that they are not choicing deceivers as partners until they actually experienced it


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Keep in mind also that many people around your age don't understand what an emotional affair is. Many grown people don't either. They never learned proper boundaries and they like attention. 

Ask 10 women if women and men can be "just friends". Most will naively say yes. 

Ask 10 men the same thing and most will confidently say no, not possible. Only on rare occasions. 

And by friends, I mean they talk on the phone together, have lunch together (outside of work), and talk about each other's lives together. I have on two occasions over a twenty year period slipped into friendships with friend's girlfriends where all of a sudden I realized how easily inappropriate it could become. We're human, there's chemistry, it's best not to put yourself in those situations.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Keep in mind also that many people around your age don't understand what an emotional affair is. Many grown people don't either. They never learned proper boundaries and they like attention.
> 
> Ask 10 women if women and men can be "just friends". Most will naively say yes.
> 
> ...


For the most part, women don't really believe they can be "just" friends, either. What women mean I think is that they can control the relationship, so it remains "just friends," even though the women know the guys would take something more if they could get it.

These are college kids in this link Why Men and Women Cant be friends - YouTube, but I think this type of thinking lingers on through their 20s these days - at least through their 20s. Notice all the women say that men and women can be just friends, but then when asked if their guy friends would have sex with them if given the opportunity, they also all say yes, the guys would hook up with them.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

staystrong said:


> .. To completely honest, if I could turn back the clock, I wouldn't turn it back to when we met and avoid her. I would turn it back to a year before the A, and work on my myself and my marriage. Does that make me evil?


Somehow I think she still would have been moving on to the next 'self-actualizing' relationship that destiny had planned for her.

She sounds like a man-eater to me - a woman who seems irresistible to the men she is attracted to, but then has few qualms about leaving them flattened on the pavement when she is ready for her next new thing. Although some people might associate her cheating with her first H with her youth and immaturity at the time, it looks to me like an issue of character and lifestyle.

I’ve read this whole thread and, from my perch as a longtime wife and a mother of grown children, I can say that it is indeed true that one’s sensibilities about infidelity are different when we are very young. We are relatively heedless, in my opinion. It seems normal that you didn’t process her first BH’s pain in a properly empathetic way. And I wonder if anyone older and wiser would have been able to really persuade you to turn away from her at the time. Somehow we all have to go through the same phases and learn the same lessons.

(I can’t help but think that your desire to offer your insight as an OM to the people here isn’t more a way to make sense of your own betrayed heart.)


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## elenap (Jul 1, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> it's important to know what he can do to turn his wife away from the AP.


This comment intrigues me. Do people out there believe that a husband CAN turn his wife away from an affair? I don't think my husband controlled whether or not I had an affair - that was all about who I am. I suppose I could have lost my commitment to the marriage, ended it, and then started dating new people, but I can't imagine pretending to be loyal.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

StayStrong. Thanks for sharing your story. For what it is worth, I do not agree with those who say you should have known that you were ruining a family by having an affair w/ a married woman and blah blah blah. The fact is that men are biologically programmed to accept any sex that come their way. If you would not have been around to do her, she would have found some other man to do it in no time flat. 

The defective person was the woman (your now Ex). If she did not have respect for her marriage, you were under no obligation to enforce it by declining sex with her. She had made her decision to cheat before she even met you. You might not have even been the only one. 

The sad truth is that people like your ex exist. They do not care how many lives they F*ck up. They only care about themselves. The best any of us can do is to get lucky and not fall in love w/ someone like that. You are not a bad or immoral person by sleeping w/ a married woman. It is her job not yours to police her own marrital behavior. 

I personally dated 3 girls like this before I met my wife of 25 years. Each of them luckily cheated on me before things could get too serious.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I see my ex has a serial monogamist who will latch onto a new serious relationship before letting go of the last one. She lasted 8 years with her first H, then 8 years with me, who knows with the next guy. It's a commitment to a real extent. It's not boyfriend/girlfriend stuff, but its not what marriage is supposed to be, either.


This.
How much will last? She probably has an educated guess.
It's obvius she doesn't believe in soulmates and forever commitments.
I can me wrong so please correct me but OM is also a serial cheater, right?

It must be interesting a marriage in with both partners share this idea of contingence and find acceptable cake eating. Who will be the first on to cheat?
alte Dame gave the answer: she's a man eater. The real karma would be if OM happened to be a con artist but I doubt it, she's too smart to pick a dumper, OM is probably like XBH1 and you in this regard. She will regurgitate him before he even notices was devoured.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Great post, Alte Dame. You're a smart lady. 



alte Dame said:


> Somehow I think she still would have been moving on to the next 'self-actualizing' relationship that destiny had planned for her.


Good observation.

During her A, she was reading Eat Pray Love. I suppose like many millions of other women. 



alte Dame said:


> She sounds like a man-eater to me - a woman who seems irresistible to the men she is attracted to, but then has few qualms about leaving them flattened on the pavement when she is ready for her next new thing. Although some people might associate her cheating with her first H with her youth and immaturity at the time, it looks to me like an issue of character and lifestyle.


Yes, highly irresistible. Besides being physically attractive, she has many good personal qualities and strengths. 

A friend of hers told me that my Ex was always a "good girl" in high school, but when she learned how she had power over men, she started to use that to her advantage. 

I don't know if she had "few qualms" about it. She claims she "fought" for us. Not sure what that means beyond the fact that she had guilt and was unable to successfully pry herself away from her A. In her own mind, I think she thinks she "tried" in her relationships, but IMO her inability to express her frustrations and needs keeps her SO's in the dark.

Man eater.. ha. During our separation, there was one particularly ugly fight in which I asked her if she was happy destroying people's lives (referring to her first H and myself). She seemed a bit shocked. A few days later she came into the house to get something and was humming the tune from the Hall and Oate's song. I kid you not. Conscious or subconscious, it was sick. 



alte Dame said:


> I’ve read this whole thread and, from my perch as a longtime wife and a mother of grown children, I can say that it is indeed true that one’s sensibilities about infidelity are different when we are very young. We are relatively heedless, in my opinion. It seems normal that you didn’t process her first BH’s pain in a properly empathetic way. And I wonder if anyone older and wiser would have been able to really persuade you to turn away from her at the time. Somehow we all have to go through the same phases and learn the same lessons.


You are correct. I did not process her BH's pain in an empathetic way, nor did she and I talk at length about what it meant with regards to our long term relationship.

I don't think anyone older or wiser could have done anything, no. I did have a good friend who tried to raise the issue .. that I was with someone who cheated on her husband, and was my Ex therefore trustworthy as a person. Of course, I defended her, said we were in love, got a little upset and said end of story. He dropped the subject. 




alte Dame said:


> (I can’t help but think that your desire to offer your insight as an OM to the people here isn’t more a way to make sense of your own betrayed heart.)


I can see why you think that but I've had a lot of time to ponder my betrayed heart. Maybe I am trying to make sense out of my previous OM experience and the nature of affairs in general. 

I do want to answer people's questions. If the subject turns back to my Ex and her psychology, I'm fine with discussing that, too. 

Thanks for your post.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I Know said:


> StayStrong. Thanks for sharing your story. For what it is worth, I do not agree with those who say you should have known that you were ruining a family by having an affair w/ a married woman and blah blah blah. The fact is that men are biologically programmed to accept any sex that come their way. If you would not have been around to do her, she would have found some other man to do it in no time flat.
> 
> The defective person was the woman (your now Ex). If she did not have respect for her marriage, you were under no obligation to enforce it by declining sex with her. She had made her decision to cheat before she even met you. You might not have even been the only one.
> 
> ...


I agree that it is VERY hard for men to turn down the advances of a married woman. Some women are very adept at seducing in a manner in which they psychologically maintain their own integrity. Hence the KISA syndrome .. men will convince themselves that a woman so 'special' (smart, charming, kind, funny, talented, interesting, erotic) is effectively a lost soul looking for love. 

Still, I think it's a cop-out for to say it's not my job for her to police her own marital behavior. It's my job to stick to my own values and not be a part of someone else's immoral behavior. 

If anything, she needed to be rejected in that instance, and been told that "you're married, what the hell are you doing?" by ME.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Acabado said:


> This.
> How much will last? She probably has an educated guess.
> It's obvius she doesn't believe in soulmates and forever commitments.
> I can me wrong so please correct me but OM is also a serial cheater, right?
> ...


OM had a brief affair with a married woman (during his 20's, I think) and a 3 year affair which started five years into his first marriage. He stayed in the marriage (don't know if he broke it off with AP by going full NC). 

I don't think he's a dumper, but he's clearly a cheater. BH1 one was not. I was an AP, but never a WH. 

Not sure what her future his. She's mid-30's now. Within a few months she will have 3 kids total from 2 different men. Two failed marriages. Someone else mentioned that if she can keep her looks up (I don't think that will be a problem), she'll still be able to trade 'up' or 'over'. Of course she doesn't see it in those terms but that's essentially what it is.

It's possible that their relationship will last long time, but I don't know see how with their histories neither one of them will ever cheat again. They're both too susceptible to the thrill of it and I don't know if that goes away with age. Maturity, yes, but not simply with age.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

damn, I can almost bet my soul that if they don't break up eventually (for betrayal) at least one will betray the other, both serial cheaters with differents kind of patterns, she with at least two affairs on her belt and she seems to cheat when the passion produced by the dopamine runs out, he with at least 3 on his belt and his motive seems to be the thrill that affairs produce.

that combination is like the meth laboratories of the drug dealers, sooner or later they always burn to the core


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

She had four affairs that I know of..

BH1 during marriage
BH1 during marriage (with me)
BH2 before marriage (during long-distance relationship)
BH2 with OM/current partner

ps - she's French


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The sad thing is...

A lot of this comes down to a person allowing someone else other than their spouse make them feel 'special'. 

Yes, it's the sex, but it's that whole mutual ego boosting which drives it all. 

The incessant games, teasing, flirtation, compliments, etc. The courtship. 

I'm sure it's easy to get sucked into that if you are insecure and lack boundaries. It seems like fun and it's a thrill. Even if home life is also 'good', why not enjoy this fun on the side, right? It's harmless, right? I'm in control of it, right? 

In the end, it's very pathetic, deceptive and immature. And selfish, ultimately selfish.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I Know said:


> StayStrong. Thanks for sharing your story. For what it is worth, I do not agree with those who say you should have known that you were ruining a family by having an affair w/ a married woman and blah blah blah. The fact is that men are biologically programmed to accept any sex that come their way. If you would not have been around to do her, she would have found some other man to do it in no time flat.
> 
> The defective person was the woman (your now Ex). If she did not have respect for her marriage, you were under no obligation to enforce it by declining sex with her. She had made her decision to cheat before she even met you. You might not have even been the only one.
> 
> ...


Stay's wife doesn't feel like most people. She lacks empathy. She has no idea the pain she has caused, simply doesn't comprehend it.

She got lucky with her first two men, they were young and inexperienced. Her new man knows exactly the pain he has caused. More importantly, he knows who he has hooked up with. He will cheat on her as sure as the sun comes up. If he gets away with it, she will eventually cheat on him. She is in the classic 7 year itch cycle. I hope she catches him when he cheats, it will be a great moment.

Stay, what do you know about her current man?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Do you happen to know his ex wife?


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm only on page 8 atm and I can tell you for me being 1 year past D-Day 1 and just past D-Day 2.. This has been very helpful. 

I never got any real answer from my Ex.. I do have some hindsight is 20/20 thoughts about my own relationship and divorce. For a moment I thought I should have went to his house where he lived with his sister and brought my kids to show him and his family what he was helping destroy.. 

But those thoughts were brief moments of the past.. 

The reality is I don't give a sh1t about her or this OM she moved in with. I mean I care in the sense I want them punished and their lives ruined in the worst way but I am not looking to distribute this punishment.. Life will do that for me.. 

But this is a good thread indeed and its not for someone who is still reeling and crushed over the affair. This is for someone who has moved past that point.. I can see myself getting upset with this thread 6 or 7 months ago as well. 

I can relate to your PSD issues. Even though I had a promotion my work suffered greatly and still does because of my divorce.. Luckily for me being a cop I just can't get fired that easy.. But only today am I trying to get back into the grove of things at work. 

But with therapy every week for over a year and talking to friends and having an extremely understanding girlfriend ( number 2 ) I still have issues..


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I agree that it is VERY hard for men to turn down the advances of a married woman. Some women are very adept at seducing in a manner in which they psychologically maintain their own integrity. Hence the KISA syndrome .. men will convince themselves that a woman so 'special' (smart, charming, kind, funny, talented, interesting, erotic) is effectively a lost soul looking for love.
> 
> *Still, I think it's a cop-out for to say it's not my job for her to police her own marital behavior. It's my job to stick to my own values and not be a part of someone else's immoral behavior.
> 
> If anything, she needed to be rejected in that instance, and been told that "you're married, what the hell are you doing?" by ME.*


Bravo! I intend to quote this post anytime anyone advances the lamebrain "if it wasn't you then it would have been someone else so it's OK" argument.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

staystrong said:


> The sad thing is...
> 
> A lot of this comes down to a person allowing someone else other than their spouse make them feel 'special'.
> 
> ...


I have mixed feelings about this whole thread. 

Maybe I'm just bitter but I don't feel bad for you at all. You got what was coming to you for being the OM in the first place. What goes around comes around. The fact that you thought a cheater would be faithful to you is a little bit delusional. A relationship based on a lie is more than likely to fail. Clearly, you let your ego trick you into believing that somehow your relationship was special. Most cheaters are done in by their egos. 

On top of that, you still don't think you broke up a family just because they had no kids. Maybe the OM doesn't feel it's a "real" family because you only had two kids. Perhaps for him, a real family has three kids. Do you see how stupid that sounds? Who are you to dictate what a family is? If you're married to someone kids or otherwise it's a family and you sir technically were a homewrecker. 

With all that said, you seem like a very mature person now. I know full well the sh!tty feeling of being cheated on. I appreciate the thread even though I lack sympathy for you. Hopefully you learned your lession. Too bad it had to be this way. I respect you for coming on here.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> *I agree that it is VERY hard for men to turn down the advances of a married woman.* Some women are very adept at seducing in a manner in which they psychologically maintain their own integrity. Hence the KISA syndrome .. men will convince themselves that a woman so 'special' (smart, charming, kind, funny, talented, interesting, erotic) is effectively a lost soul looking for love.
> 
> Still, I think it's a cop-out for to say it's not my job for her to police her own marital behavior. It's my job to stick to my own values and not be a part of someone else's immoral behavior.
> 
> If anything, she needed to be rejected in that instance, and been told that "you're married, what the hell are you doing?" by ME.


*I can well imagine! My skanky XW was the consummate flirt and could come on to someone subtly at first, and then after reading their responsive signals, she would have been all over them like a hell-bound locomotive! Let's just say that whenever she wanted affection and/or sex, she absolutely was not very shy.

And so it is with her actions in seducing her OMen. Judging solely by how she had jumped my bones in better times, it really wouldn't have been a major task on her part to get those BF's of hers into the hay with her with much trouble at all!*


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Stay's wife doesn't feel like most people. She lacks empathy. She has no idea the pain she has caused, simply doesn't comprehend it.
> 
> She got lucky with her first two men, they were young and inexperienced. Her new man knows exactly the pain he has caused. More importantly, he knows who he has hooked up with. He will cheat on her as sure as the sun comes up. If he gets away with it, she will eventually cheat on him. She is in the classic 7 year itch cycle. I hope she catches him when he cheats, it will be a great moment.
> 
> Stay, what do you know about her current man?


Is it a lack of empathy? I don't know. Sometimes I think she's self-absorbed and other times I think it is TOO MUCH empathy and a lack of boundaries. Empathy or sympathy for the APs and their problems and desires. My wife is in the therapeutic/health industry. Women are by default nurturers, and are receptive to other people's problems. Therapists and artists have one of the highest divorce rates, in part due to floating sensitivities.

What do I know about the other man. Not much. I know what he does for a living (musician) and some of history. 

I have spoken with his wife. A couple of months after D-Day. She had been shocked but had already move on with another person, so I'm guessing their the first A a few years before had already created a wedge. She's seven years younger than him (was also his student at one time, just like my Ex was), and I don't think she can conceive (heard that from Ex so who knows). I have my suspicions she may even be in a lesbian relationship right now. I don't know. All I remember is she did not seem to dig too much into what the affair was about. What shocked me is that she said she is used to "seeing all sides of things" and that the OM "has good values". :scratch head: She said she would miss his parents.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> I have mixed feelings about this whole thread.
> 
> Maybe I'm just bitter but I don't feel bad for you at all. You got what was coming to you for being the OM in the first place. What goes around comes around. The fact that you thought a cheater would be faithful to you is a little bit delusional. A relationship based on a lie is more than likely to fail. Clearly, you let your ego trick you into believing that somehow your relationship was special. Most cheaters are done in by their egos.
> 
> ...


I understand. I know most people will just see this as karma come full circle. 

I retracted my statement about 'not breaking up a family'. I do think it's more severe when kids are involved, but it is still a family (multiple families, really) which are being torn apart.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> She had four affairs that I know of..
> 
> BH1 during marriage
> BH1 during marriage (with me)
> ...


You didn't mention that she was French, it's okay for you both to cheat then.. that changes everything. Move to France, you'll be the model couple.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> I'm only on page 8 atm and I can tell you for me being 1 year past D-Day 1 and just past D-Day 2.. This has been very helpful.
> 
> I never got any real answer from my Ex.. I do have some hindsight is 20/20 thoughts about my own relationship and divorce. For a moment I thought I should have went to his house where he lived with his sister and brought my kids to show him and his family what he was helping destroy..
> 
> ...


I feel your pain and hang in there. 

I found Zoloft to be effective for treating many of the PTSD symptoms, if not the root causes of course. Xanax has been good for anxiety. If you're not on meds already, please see a doctor.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> The sad thing is...
> 
> A lot of this comes down to a person allowing someone else other than their spouse make them feel 'special'.
> 
> ...


If you wouldn't allow it to occur around your significant other, then it probably should not occur.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

treyvion said:


> If you wouldn't allow it to occur around your significant other, then it probably should not occur.


Emotion trumps logic. 

Cheaters know what they're doing, and they know it's not right. It just feels good and eventually it's "If it feels this right, how could it be wrong?".


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Emotion trumps logic.
> 
> Cheaters know what they're doing, and they know it's not right. It just feels good and eventually it's "If it feels this right, how could it be wrong?".


We get a god complex about not being able to be caught, and delude ourselves that we are not hurting our primary relationship.

Also your mind is SO SLICK to let it happen, that your primary relationships pain, suffering and needs are real and you hear it, but it just doesn't bother you.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> I have mixed feelings about this whole thread.
> 
> Maybe I'm just bitter but I don't feel bad for you at all. You got what was coming to you for being the OM in the first place. What goes around comes around. The fact that you thought a cheater would be faithful to you is a little bit delusional. A relationship based on a lie is more than likely to fail. Clearly, you let your ego trick you into believing that somehow your relationship was special. Most cheaters are done in by their egos.
> 
> ...


I think staystrong is like a truly repentant WS (a small group here on TAM). Did bad, got what was coming to them, but now "gets it" from the point of view of the betrayed. And has the courage to look themselves in the eye.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Philat said:


> I think staystrong is like a truly repentant WS (a small group here on TAM). Did bad, got what was coming to them, but now "gets it" from the point of view of the betrayed. And has the courage to look themselves in the eye.


Well he "gets it" from the point of the BS, because he was BS to the love of his life. So he understands fully.

Alot of the cheating and things is under the guise of "fun" and being on the "scene". Alot of it based around the "club life", "sex drugs and rock and roll" you know.


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## bettermarriage (Apr 8, 2013)

Thanks for offering this. I am wondering: did you ever feel guilty knowing that you had come between a husband and wife? I ask because my husband left me for another woman after 13 years of marriage and my dad left my mom for another woman, so this idea of the psychology of the OM/OW has always fascinated me. 

My husband essentially abandoned me and our kids. He came back after a few months, but had no remorse for his EM relationship and still doesn't. He and the girlfriend are still in touch from time to time, texting and emailing back and forth about their lives. I've asked them both to stop because I find it very upsetting and disrespectful, but nothing seems to stop them. I wonder how he can do this to me, as he is the one I'm married to, not her, but I also wonder how she can participate in this knowing that she is the OW. I wonder if guilt is something she experiences or if there are guiltless/remorseless types out there who can have a profoundly negative impact on the lives of others yet feel blameless for any of it. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, just that it is possible that some people do not experience remorse and guilt as much as others.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bettermarriage said:


> Thanks for offering this. I am wondering: did you ever feel guilty knowing that you had come between a husband and wife? I ask because my husband left me for another woman after 13 years of marriage and my dad left my mom for another woman, so this idea of the psychology of the OM/OW has always fascinated me.
> 
> My husband essentially abandoned me and our kids. He came back after a few months, but had no remorse for his EM relationship and still doesn't. He and the girlfriend are still in touch from time to time, texting and emailing back and forth about their lives. I've asked them both to stop because I find it very upsetting and disrespectful, but nothing seems to stop them. I wonder how he can do this to me, as he is the one I'm married to, not her, but I also wonder how she can participate in this knowing that she is the OW. I wonder if guilt is something she experiences or if there are guiltless/remorseless types out there who can have a profoundly negative impact on the lives of others yet feel blameless for any of it. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, just that it is possible that some people do not experience remorse and guilt as much as others.


*You mean to tell me that you took him back after that? And you're letting him continue communicating with her?*


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

bettermarriage said:


> He and the girlfriend are still in touch from time to time, texting and emailing back and forth about their lives. I've asked them both to stop because I find it very upsetting and disrespectful, but nothing seems to stop them. I wonder how he can do this to me, as he is the one I'm married to, not her, but I also wonder how she can participate in this knowing that she is the OW.


I find you fascinating.... I wonder how you can let him do that to you. I wonder why you have so little respect for yourself. I wonder why you would allow this to happen for even a second and why you would take him back.

You are asking ALL the wrong questions. You act like a helpless victim. Yes you are a victim but you are NOT helpless. You want them to stop but you offer ZERO incentive for them too. They in return treat you like a doormat because you act like a doormat. 

Nevermind what they are thinking. What are YOU thinking putting up with this GARBAGE? Toss him out and file divorce immediately. Then you will get the results you want..... He will not respond to anything else. Stop being played for a fool. Have some self-respect.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

bettermarriage said:


> Thanks for offering this. I am wondering: did you ever feel guilty knowing that you had come between a husband and wife? I ask because my husband left me for another woman after 13 years of marriage and my dad left my mom for another woman, so this idea of the psychology of the OM/OW has always fascinated me.
> 
> My husband essentially abandoned me and our kids. He came back after a few months, but had no remorse for his EM relationship and still doesn't. He and the girlfriend are still in touch from time to time, texting and emailing back and forth about their lives. *I've asked them both to stop* because I find it very upsetting and disrespectful, but nothing seems to stop them. I wonder how he can do this to me, as he is the one I'm married to, not her, but I also wonder how she can participate in this knowing that she is the OW. I wonder if guilt is something she experiences or if there are guiltless/remorseless types out there who can have a profoundly negative impact on the lives of others yet feel blameless for any of it. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, just that it is possible that some people do not experience remorse and guilt as much as others.


It is disrespectful, and they'll continue to disrespect you as long as you continue to allow it. 

Why are you talking to the OW? Has she been exposed to family and friends as someone that's helping destroy a marriage? Have either of them suffered any consequences for the betrayal? She's not feeling guilt, she's been told you're a horrible wife and all sorts of stuff about why it's okay that she's cheating with him.. He probably told her you're controlling and needy. Stop worrying about what she feels.. start worrying about what you feel.

Next time you tell him to stop contact, give him divorce papers and let him know that's what's happening if he contacts her again. Or just do it now.. why wait, then see if he comes out of his fog. He's still cheating on you with her.. She's first, you're second. You asked that he not contact her, he did it.. so she's more important. Are you going to continue to let him treat you like #2?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Bettermarriage... so sad. 

He continues to disrespect you because you allow it. He stayed because life after divorce / separation sucks and is harder than sticking out the sludge of day-to-day living. 

Even if the prior OW lives far away, the EA continues, and it is only a matter of time before he finds a new AP. 

Seriously. WTH are you doing.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

bettermarriage said:


> Thanks for offering this. I am wondering: did you ever feel guilty knowing that you had come between a husband and wife? I ask because my husband left me for another woman after 13 years of marriage and my dad left my mom for another woman, so this idea of the psychology of the OM/OW has always fascinated me.
> 
> My husband essentially abandoned me and our kids. He came back after a few months, but had no remorse for his EM relationship and still doesn't. He and the girlfriend are still in touch from time to time, texting and emailing back and forth about their lives. I've asked them both to stop because I find it very upsetting and disrespectful, but nothing seems to stop them. I wonder how he can do this to me, as he is the one I'm married to, not her, but I also wonder how she can participate in this knowing that she is the OW. I wonder if guilt is something she experiences or if there are guiltless/remorseless types out there who can have a profoundly negative impact on the lives of others yet feel blameless for any of it. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, just that it is possible that some people do not experience remorse and guilt as much as others.


You are expecting them to feel the way you would feel if you were cheating on someone. That's not how it works. 

You give them too much credit. The thing cheaters want most is for their actions to be validated, to think they are both "good people" who just go caught up in something together, ended it (probably not) and should still be able to be "friends" because of the bond they shared. They think they are noble, and they don't regret what they did. 

By allowing him/her to continue in this manner, you are accepting the triangle and not asserting yourself as his wife. Therefore he won't respect you and neither will she. They may feign respect but it's not real respect. If they respected you, they would stop. But they don't so they see you as someone who does not stand up for herself. 

Stop being fascinated by cheaters and their lack of guilt, and start thinking about what YOU need. If it's full no contact, what are you prepared to do to enforce that? 

I think you are afraid he will leave you if you try to be too tough. He may. But what you have right now is not a marriage you really want to be in, is it? If you can tolerate that, fine by you. I know I could not.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

bettermarriage - Your screen name is poignant. Perhaps being on TAM means that you are taking the first steps toward what you want, which is a better marriage.

Unfortunately, it's a binary proposition. You have to be willing to lose it in order to save it. What the others are saying is so true. Your WH is cake-eating and disrespecting you every minute of every day. If you tell him to stop it or it's divorce, that is your only hope for a better marriage. If he won't cut it off with her, then you divorce and have a better life.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I see a theme...

Tell him to cut it off with her. If he doesn't, divorce him.

He'll either, begin to respect you and your marriage over his lover... OR, he'll leave you, then find out at a later date that his lover wasn't worth it. Either way, you'll regain your self respect, and he'll no longer be able to control you like a puppet. When you were in the dark about his affair it was okay to be treated like crap, because they were pretending to be nice to your face. Now they are treating you like crap to your face. Do something about it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Is it against the rules to post a link to a thread from a OW/OM forum on another website? I wanted to use it as an example.


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## bettermarriage (Apr 8, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *You mean to tell me that you took him back after that? And you're letting him continue communicating with her?*


Is that comment supposed to be helpful? I don't get it. The answer to your question is in my original post, so is this a passing judgement or a question that I am supposed to answer? :scratchhead:


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## RonHanh (Feb 13, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I don't know if my marriage was foggy, I've only been married once. I have nothing to compare it to.
> 
> We were together for eight years. We knew each other very well, knew each other's families, loved each other deeply, had children together. It was a marriage, about as close as two people can get. Sure, there are thoughts we must have kept to ourselves and I would've liked to have gone deeper into the relationship, but it was a real relationship, not some illusion. Human behavior is complex, let's face that fact. Ideally, you pair up with someone who is a match for life, or who will invest in the marriage in the same way you want to. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
> 
> A wedded couple is not a family. A wedded couple with children is a family. For me, it's just a matter of definition, so there's no real use in debating that. I made vows to my children as much as I made them to my wife. My children will always be my family - there's no divorcing your children, IMO, unless you are some kind of scumbag. Marital love is conditional (except for the rare couple), love for children should never be conditional. Anyhow, separate issues here.


It would be helpful if couples who feel marital love is conditional would include this in their wedding vows. That way both people would have the proper expectation. It truly sucks if one person enters into the marriage prepared to love unconditionally only to have their spouse take the view that their love is conditional. So the wedding vows could go something like this,

"I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part -- or until I no longer choose to."

I think this would help society.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bettermarriage said:


> Is that comment supposed to be helpful? I don't get it. The answer to your question is in my original post, so is this a passing judgement or a question that I am supposed to answer? :scratchhead:


*Not at all judgmental, Bettermarriage! It's just rather surprising considering what all you went through; added to by his still grossly disrespecting you by still communicating with his OW well after the fact!

Did you two go through MC (marriage counseling) upon his return home?*


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Is it against the rules to post a link to a thread from a OW/OM forum on another website? I wanted to use it as an example.


Staystrong, did you get this question answered via PM?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Nope, no PM on that. 

No biggie..


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## notadoormat (Jun 1, 2013)

bettermarriage..please listen to the advice. My ws stopped the pa but kept up the ea. She had moved on to someone else knowing my ws not leaving wife n kids but they kept thr friendship. I booted him out. He attempted R while keeping in touch w her. He then moves back in against my wishes. All weve had is false R. Ive had to grow a backbone i never had before. Its true you have to truly let them go and if they decide your the most important thing they will show it. I did not know about TAM during my ddays. Being in false R will kill your esteem and leave you feeling empty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DiamondsandRust (Jan 21, 2014)

i was once the OM too, i'm not proud of it, in fact, i wish it never happened. i was a hard worker. early in my 20's. have had a rough life and was kind of depressed and not hanging out with the right crowd .
met a female co worker, she was attractive but i kept my distance and never tried something dumb. how ever she started making advances on me. i did try to resist but when she kissed me, i couldnt resist my self. 

during that time, i became close to her and used to ask her questions about her marriage. i asked her why? how can she do that to her husband. her reply was, " He was everything for me and loved him very much with all my heart, but he cheated on me and after that day i lost respect for him and all the love". 

i had feelings for this woman at one point, but i talked to my brother about it and he knock some sense in me, that i was doing wrong. then i realized and broke the relationship i had with her. 

now, i'm 10 years older and realize how wrong i have been. I prayed for forgiveness. 

the other day i seen pics of the lady with a younger man, i'm guessing she never changed her ways.


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## DiamondsandRust (Jan 21, 2014)

Karma is there, i'm now going through separation and facing divorce. my stbxw has started seen someone else, even though we are separated it still burns a hole in me. 

i never cheated on my wife, so it really kills me, but i still feel i have fault for what i did before.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

DiamondsandRust said:


> Karma is there, i'm now going through separation and facing divorce. my stbxw has started seen someone else, even though we are separated it still burns a hole in me.
> 
> i never cheated on my wife, so it really kills me, but i still feel i have fault for what i did before.


If your former AP was telling the truth about her husband's cheating, it shows how infidelity can create a river of poison that winds through many people's lives.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Just finished catching up.. 

Again great thread, good insight into the OM head and such.

Again I don't think this thread is for someone who is still hurting about the affair their ex had.. My D-Day was sept 25, 2012 and my 2nd D-Day was December 30th 2012.. My wife didn't leave my house until April 6th 2013.. Those 4 months were the longest most painful time of my life.. From not wanting her to go to the point of I couldn't wait for her to leave.. As painful as it was her leaving I actually felt better in many ways as I didn't know or have to worry what she was doing anymore. I think her getting a phone call at him from the other man every day and her leaving to fvck him and then come back home to me and the kids was more painful then anything I have ever had to endure.. Being a cop I had to stfu and endure it.. One phone call would have completely ruined my career and any future I had.. 

SS as for taking meds.. I cannot take meds due to my job in law enforcement.. I do therapy once a week and learn to talk stuff out.. 

My largest issue ATM is anger.. I can fly off the handle.. I basically have to go all the way to the top of the anger mountain to calm down.. I am learning to go half way and just stop.. But it is hard at times.

My relationship with my ex is horrible. I honestly could not tell you exactly the last time we spoke on the phone or in person. Everything is in text messages and nothing is ever good.. 

I would like to agree that having an affair is usually for young foolish people but my ex which is older then me is pushing 50 this year and the OM whom has never been married or had kids is pushing 55 and is 9 years older then me.

The one good thing is I was able to tell my ex off today via text.. I was able to tell her I finally realized her life sucks and that I know she also knows her life sucks.. She lost her kids.. All her family and is stuck with a man who could give 2 sh1ts about my kids along with his family that couldn't give a sh1t about my kids either.. 

I told her what kind of mother would allow some man to put a wedge between her and her kids.. 

The one big thing I learned which I tell her is the following

It is was not my job to make you know why you should love me. That was your job to see and know why you should love me. 

It was your job to see the good man I was.. 

It was my job to love you regardless, even when you didn't love yourself. Even when you looked to cheat on me in the past I still stood by your side and seen the good person you were inside even when you couldn't..

I did my job as a husband and as a man.. 

You failed me, You failed your family and you failed yourself.. 

This is your sh1tty life now, enjoy it..

The most the OM ever told me *" You know what you did wrong, you don't need for me to tell you.. You know what you did wrong to lose her." *

And *"I never did anything wrong to you"*

I never answered him back, but I expressed to my EX that I can see how guilty he feels with his comments.. That it kills him to know he is a piece of sh1t and that it kills him to see that I know it as well.

My question which I haven't seen asked is the following;

Has anyone ever asked how you met ? 
If so, I would imagine you lied.. What did you say ?

I ask because that is one of the things I pushed on her.. I tell her how will you introduce him to people ? *"Oh, its funny how we met.. I had an affair with him while I was married."*

In many respects my Ex is also like other here.. Being together for 19 years and 14 of them married.. I really have come to the realization that she never loved me and just went along with this roller coaster.. We dated 5 years and I put her through college. Her family was moving out of state. I think she fell out of love while we were dating and just felt compelled to do things.. I think she faked it as she was caught several times by me looking to have an affair.. 

Again those are the times I caught her. Who actually knows how many she successfully had that I don't know about.

Nonetheless I think she just dragged it out as long as she could and then popped.. But when she popped, she became the most ruthless uncaring person I have ever seen. She not only had the affair and continued during our fake reconciliation. But also became even more heartless when it was really over.. I just never thought she could ever treat me like that.. I asked her repeatedly why she did certain things to hurt me and just never had an answer.. She literally went mute on me.. 

But again today I have come to realize her life is a sham and its not all rainbows and unicorns. I really did believe that they would get together months after she left and just talk about what an loser I was and laugh about me, but I finally realized that her losing her kids and them being with me shows her what a piece of sh1t she really is..


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> My question which I haven't seen asked is the following;
> 
> Has anyone ever asked how you met ?
> If so, I would imagine you lied.. What did you say ?
> ...


No, they usually tell the truth, but leave out the ugly part about the affair. Or water down the affair part. It seemed very important to most women I've known to have an acceptable "how we met" story.

"We met while we were both on a mountain climbing trip to the Alps."

"I was separated from my husband, in the process of leaving my husband, and I met this really nice guy who was only my friend who helped me out and gave me support. After the divorce was final, the friendship turned into something more."

What was the story you and the ex told, staystrong? 

What story do you think she tells other people now about how she came to be with the other man?


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> They think they are noble, and they don't regret what they did.


Exactly right here - I will tell you I met my ex at the bus station over the holidays - did not see her for over 1.5 years (after being with her for close to 30 years) - she deserted her family kids etc. destroyed family. When she saw me she cried and ran to give me a big hug and said "It is all water under the bridge now." I grabbed my ticket and went out into my car and and what she said bothered me "water under the bridge?". So I went back inside and said "If you would really like to heal so we can have whatever semblance of a family left, it would help alot if you apologized for what you did." She got immediately indignant that I would dare suggest such a thing ad responded "Sorry? Sorry? Oh honey, I am NOT sorry!". I realized then what I was dealing with....I said "Wow!" and walked away.....what staystrong is saying is true. They are not sorry!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> No, they usually tell the truth, but leave out the ugly part about the affair. Or water down the affair part. It seemed very important to most women I've known to have an acceptable "how we met" story.
> 
> "We met while we were both on a mountain climbing trip to the Alps."
> 
> ...


Yes, pretty much this. We said where we met and what we were doing at the time (traveling/hiking) but leave out the affair part. Except to close friends who know there was an affair. 

I don't know what she tells people. A lot of people know she cheated and left, so I think she laid the groundwork with a lot of "we were having marital difficulties" or "she was unhappy in her marriage and she fell in love; it just happened" baloney. I made sure people who knew us both knew that she'd had an affair. I shifted from blaming her, blaming myself, blaming OM and so on. I couldn't think straight for a while. 

Since this is her second time divorcing from cheating, I don't think her family believes everything she says. They don't get why she is the way the she is, but they love her. My ex wrote to me once after D-Day and said "you don't know what it's like to be the bad guy". You see, it's really all about them...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> The most the OM ever told me *" You know what you did wrong, you don't need for me to tell you.. You know what you did wrong to lose her." *
> 
> And *"I never did anything wrong to you"*
> 
> I never answered him back, but I expressed to my EX that I can see how guilty he feels with his comments.. That it kills him to know he is a piece of sh1t and that it kills him to see that I know it as well.


Eh? Are we reading the same thing? The OM was not expressing guilt at all. He's blaming you, just as your WW did. He's not saying you did anything wrong to him, but that you wronged your wife. They have to say this stuff to themselves so that they can preserve their self-image. He's a bastard of an OM, though, I can tell you. He has no sense of guilt or remorse.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Eh? Are we reading the same thing? The OM was not expressing guilt at all. He's blaming you, just as your WW did. He's not saying you did anything wrong to him, but that you wronged your wife. They have to say this stuff to themselves so that they can preserve their self-image. He's a bastard of an OM, though, I can tell you. He has no sense of guilt or remorse.


He's takes zero blame and pins it on you... Just like the WW. Your hearing his internal rationalizations which allow him to have a guilt free conscious.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Exactly right here - I will tell you I met my ex at the bus station over the holidays - did not see her for over 1.5 years (after being with her for close to 30 years) - she deserted her family kids etc. destroyed family. When she saw me she cried and ran to give me a big hug and said "It is all water under the bridge now." I grabbed my ticket and went out into my car and and what she said bothered me "water under the bridge?". So I went back inside and said "If you would really like to heal so we can have whatever semblance of a family left, it would help alot if you apologized for what you did." She got immediately indignant that I would dare suggest such a thing ad responded "Sorry? Sorry? Oh honey, I am NOT sorry!". I realized then what I was dealing with....I said "Wow!" and walked away.....what staystrong is saying is true. They are not sorry!


You should have said: Thank you. 

Even though you are burning up inside.

Don't give them the pleasure of seeing you hurt.

staystrong, it's been a long time. Hang in there brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

My H always says that people have to lie to themselves in order to be able to live with themselves.

I think this is so true with the part of the script that sees the OM/OW so desperately wanting to believe all of the scurrilous stuff that the WS spouts about the BS. While they are giving in to their desire to gratify themselves, they are building cases against the BS's that will somehow justify the betrayal. So common.

There is one BW here whose WH screamed in agony, 'I am not a sc*mbag!', when she confronted him with her evidence. According to her, he was in real pain at the thought that people might consider him a bad person. And he didn't want to believe it himself.


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