# No Sex, No Affection, No Appreciation No Intimacy, No hope??



## Reg

Let me summarize for the sake of a better read...Married 18 years, high school sweethearts, 2 daughters. Wife is a SAHM, kids are busy in after school programs. We live in a very nice house, drive new cars and I earn an excellent income; money is not an issue...the family gets whatever they want/ask for.

The problem started about 10 years ago, wife would wait until I am asleep before she comes to bed, so the frequency of sex drastically took a dip as did the intimacy. I pleaded with her to change and she would; but only for a few days and then revert back. 

We used to go out on date nights; that stopped a few years ago also.

She won't even go for a walk with me or out for a coffee; too busy, too tired!!!

I work extremely hard in a high stress job that allows our family to have very nice lifestyle, zero appreciation. I come home, nothing to eat for me. She eats dinner with kids and I might get the leftovers that I can heat up and eat by myself...nice.

Sometimes I get home late from work (after 10pm), she will barely take her eyes off the tv to say hi. Then she will immediately bolt into the basement to play with the cat while I sit in the family room by myself. If she stays in the room it will be on the furthest couch, god forbid she sits next to me!

Sex? It has been a year since the last time! We had sex a year ago only after I threatened divorce and then it was only for a couple of weeks then back to her normal behaviour. Prior to that it was a year of no sex.

She used wear sexy gowns to bed with thongs...last few years? Long sleeve shirts, long pants and granny underwear. 

It's not just the sex, she won't even touch me. Not even to move me out of her way in the kitchen...she will wait until I pass then go where she has to.

I have tried to be the best husband that I can...I work hard, I spend all my time with the kids, shop for groceries, cook, help clean, look after parents like their my own (they don't live with us), I buy her nice things, send flowers. I make an effort to be a good, thoughtful husband and a father.

I have started do everything alone or with friends, go out eat, movies, coffee, etc. because she doesn't want to do anything with me.

We are both 44, in great physical shape, no medical issues. I workout 5-6 times a week, dress well and know that I still get checked out...I've actually turned quite a few offers over the last few years because I am loyal but at least I know I am not the leper like she makes me feel like.

The resentments and frustration is so great now that I don't like going home. I am married to a woman that won't spend any time with me, have sex or even touch me; I feel disgusting 

If it weren't for the kids I wouldn't even go home to pack, I would be gone! 

Damn it...I just wanted my wife to be my wife!

Is there any hope here?? I have bought her books on marriage (i've read them), and offered her counselling (i've gone) and she hasn't done anything.

She is an excellent mother but a a zero wife. And I am torn.


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## PBear

She's not changing because she doesn't need to and doesn't want to. Expect this to continue until you change the dynamic. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

Have you spoken to your wife about all of this and told her if it continues you will be asking for divorce?

Have you seen what she does during the day, maybe there is a good reason why she is so distant. 

It seems like you have a room mate, not a wife. This has to be addressed or I would end the marriage.

You said money is a none issue, BUT you do work extremely hard and late. Can your WORK be the issue? Are you overworking? Does your stress spill over onto your kids/wife when you get home?

Too much work is and can be WORSE than money issues....

Key here is communication though. Sit down with your wife and talk to her. See how she feels......tell her how you feel....back and forth. Get a feel if she is even considerate of your issues with her or if she cares.

I would probably check out her internet history/phone as well. That sounds rather distant.


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## tom67

Get the book "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" asap.
You can't control her but you can control what you will or will not put up with.
One year without sex is unacceptable in my opinion.
Time to make some tough decisions.


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## Giro flee

What does she say is the reason for this horrible treatment? How can she possibly defend this kind of behavior?

I would not put up with that at all, you only get one trip on the roller coaster of life. There is no joy in this relationship. Something needs to drastically change on her side.


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## tom67

You may want to stick a few voice activated recorders in the house and one in her car to find out what you are up against.
Sounds like she checked out.


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## happy as a clam

I would say it's time to toss in the towel. *Read my thread (in my signature line below).* Your story is eerily similar to mine, except I am the wife, not the husband.


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## Marduk

A year without sex is a sexless marriage and in my mind not living up to the marriage contract.

Do something to destabilize this relationship. Make her feel uncomfortable and just a little bit unsafe. Things I did to do this included dressing a lot nicer, being out a lot more, being just a little bit flirtatious, checking out women a lot more. Oh, and I hit on my wife and groped her just a little bit every day. Every. Single. Day. Even when she obviously didn't like it. I made it clear that I was a sexual being that expected it from my wife and was more than capable of finding it elsewhere if I wished it.

The day her hotter, younger friend openly hit on me in front of my wife is the day that everything seemed to change.

Only when her nice safe perch was starting to fall out from under her was she willing to work on things. Then, and only then, could we start to have honest conversations and then our relationship could start to change.

Try it -- and there's a hint here in shooting down offers -- I was the same... 

I was "too safe."

I would start the conversation after a few weeks of shaking the boat with "I wouldn't expect you to live in a sexless marriage, why do you expect me to live in one?"


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## sammy3

I guarantee you start making noise about moving her cheese...she'll start to get scared.

-sammy


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## warlock07

What does she say about the no sex part ? What are her reasons ?


What does she do in her spare time ? Does she have any particular hobbies ?

Is she a lot on social networks ?


Finally ...
(Here it comes)

Do you think she is seeing someone else ? (You actually do not. I am asking you to consider if this is the case. And be smart about it if you decide to find out. )


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## warlock07

Just looked at your other threads. Your next post will be


"Married 20+ years with high school sweet heart, we are in our late forties...."

Why does she have to change anything when nothing changes ? You pester her once a year...which is pretty manageable.


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## Reg

Thanks for the input.

I have asked her if she was having an affair and she said no. I believe her.

I have asked her the reason why she treats me this way and there is no answer from her other than from time to time I may get upset about something and she doesn't like that. I am human and of course can't be 100% happy all the time.

As for my work; I do do work very hard but have scaled it back so that I only work late one or two nights a week max. I can't quit...the family has become accustomed to a lifestyle; I know it's my fault.

I have initiated sex probably 20 times in the last year; rejected every time. She won't kiss me with any passion when she does (also, no kisses for over a year).

Oh and I forgot...she NEVER says that she loves me.

When I asked her for a divorce last year she said that she doesn't believe in divorce and she wants to stay together for the sake of the kids. She has never said that she wants to stay for me.

I have been to two separate counsellors. Both have said that my marriage is over an that I am basically an idiot for doing all things that I do for her and for trying to save our marriage.


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## Giro flee

Your children are learning how to treat their future spouses by watching you and your wife. Even if you can take all of her crap, your children will lose respect for you and your wife, and they shouldn't have to live in that environment. Which way could your kids go, will they become doormats or bullies? Neither is healthy.


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## warlock07

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results



> I can't quit...the family has become accustomed to a lifestyle; I know it's my fault.


Your family scales back with your income. Why is this so hard ? You are just enabling entitlement when you are saying that. Whether it be your kids or wife. I think you see the same happen when she(your wife) refuses to do anything for you.She doesn't have to. You are an enabler that will go nowhere




> I have asked her if she was having an affair and she said no. I believe her.


Are you for real ?? Why should she tell you the truth if she is cheating on you ? If she is already cheating on you, then lying to you is not hard. 




> I have been to two separate counsellors. Both have said that my marriage is over an that I am basically an idiot for doing all things that I do for her and for trying to save our marriage.


I really do not want to say this but I agree with your counselors. You are a victim to your own idiocy and stubbornness. No one is going to come up with a magic formula to change your wife.

Find out if she is seeing someone else(for your closure). File for divorce regardless.


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## warlock07

What does she do in her spare time ? Does she have any particular hobbies ?

Is she a lot on social networks ?


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## tom67

intheory said:


> No sex is the symptom; what caused the illness?
> 
> What changed 10 years ago?
> 
> Why refuse something non-sexual, like going for a coffee?
> It isn't tiring to go out for a coffee.
> 
> Why the rudeness of leaving you to fend for yourself on leftovers when you get home?
> 
> Why the cruelty of not keeping you company after work?
> 
> But, the kids are well treated.
> 
> So, she knows how to be loving and kind; just not to you.
> 
> What happened 10 years ago?


Good question but at this point there is nothing to salvage she will treat you like this as long as you put up with it.
Don't know what else to say.


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## Noble1

Sorry to hear about your situation.

If she doesn't want a divorce for the "kids" then you can always tell her that you can both live life as 'room mate partners' in order to look after the kids.

You tell her that you will pay your half of the 'child' expenses and she can pay her half. If she is not living up to her end of the marriage, you won't need to support her anymore than required.

A bit much I know, but like it has been mentioned, you wife has no reason to change as you have always put up with the bad behaviour she gives to you.

Start living for you and the kids and be so great that she wants to come along for the ride. The question is - do you want her to come along with you?

Good luck.


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## Marduk

Initiate every day. Straight up, no fooling, "wife, let's go upstairs and get naked."

When she says no, go put on something nice, do your hair, put some cologne on, and walk out the door with a smile on your face.

Come home late.

When she asks what's going on, smile, and say that you're making some changes to make your life better.

Then keep it up.

She'll get mad. Ignore it, walk out the door. Go do something fun with the kids.

You'll know when she's nervous and finally ready to talk.

If she doesn't get nervous, it was over a long time ago. Just paperwork to do at this point.


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## PBear

So what are you expecting us to tell you? Your counsellors (who should be much more familiar with the situation) are right. Your wife doesn't love you, and she's staying with you for the kids and her own benefit. Your only choice is whether this a an acceptable life for you. Realizing that as soon as it's economically in her interests, you're out the door anyway. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

marduk said:


> Initiate every day. Straight up, no fooling, "wife, let's go upstairs and get naked."
> 
> When she says no, go put on something nice, do your hair, put some cologne on, and walk out the door with a smile on your face.
> 
> Come home late.
> 
> When she asks what's going on, smile, and say that you're making some changes to make your life better.
> 
> Then keep it up.
> 
> She'll get mad. Ignore it, walk out the door. Go do something fun with the kids.
> 
> You'll know when she's nervous and finally ready to talk.
> 
> If she doesn't get nervous, it was over a long time ago. Just paperwork to do at this point.


So your idea is to threaten her with "getting some on the side....possibly"

How about just telling her that what she is doing is not acceptable and the marriage will not work/go on.

This one seems like a done deal for sure


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## Reg

I don't want to be a martyr. She is an amazing mother to the kids, almost obsessive with the older daughter and she is kind and loving to her friends. 

I get treated like and spoken to; like dirt.

Confused I am. Alpha male all my life, leader in business, tough as nails but a ***** when it comes to my marriage.

Don't want to threaten an affair but yes, a talk about an "open" relationship and her getting a job seems to be the right way to go.


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## murphy5

She sounds PISSED at you. Is there more to the story? Lots of fights? Bad blood from previous stuff? Any previous shenanigans?

You are working your butt off. If she does not respect and appreciate that, and there are no other extenuating circumstances, sounds like time to read her the riot act. Or maybe better, get her lazy azz out the door and get her a job herself.

and in a marriage...the spouse comes first...always. The kids are nice, and deserve attention, but NEVER in front of the spouse.


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## Reg

Yeah; She's always pissed with me...I ask her to pass the ketchup the wrong way and I'm in trouble! Sounds comical but it's true.

All of my buddies tell me that that they wouldn't do half of what I do for their wives and they are treated very well by their spouses. 

I have many female friends, including my my wife's friends who comment all the time that my wife is very lucky to have a husband like me.

Another sad example: She wanted to go to Europe, so last summer I sent her and the girls to London and Paris. They came back after two weeks, I had cleaned the house, done the laundry, stocked the fridge and met them at the airport with flowers in hand. Did I get anything??? Not even a kiss and believe me I tried to kiss her, hug her, have sex...nothing. Absolutely cold.

Just writing all this makes it obvious.


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## PBear

Dude. She's not an "amazing mother". She's teaching the kids to be just like her. Is your marriage the mind of relationship you'd wish for them? Because that's how you're setting them up. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Reg said:


> I don't want to be a martyr. She is an amazing mother to the kids, almost obsessive with the older daughter and she is kind and loving to her friends.
> 
> I get treated like and spoken to; like dirt.
> 
> Confused I am. Alpha male all my life, leader in business, tough as nails but a ***** when it comes to my marriage.
> 
> Don't want to threaten an affair but yes, a talk about an "open" relationship and her getting a job seems to be the right way to go.


Do you think you will be fine if she starts dating other men in front of you ? Or staying at the other guys house while still living in the same house. Or seeing her come back into the house after having sex with another guy the previous night ?

What if you find out that her libido issues are with you, not with other guys ? Open relationship do not work in relationship with dead bedrooms

Let her start looking for work and contributing to the family financially, since you are staying together for the kids and are not husband and wife. She does not deserve free handouts. Then a separation

And for the last time, find out if she is seeing someone else. Just look at the CWI section to realize how many guys find out about their wife's affair through c0mplete accident..Use your own methods and check. Atleast you will have an answer


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## warlock07

Reg said:


> Yeah; She's always pissed with me...I ask her to pass the ketchup the wrong way and I'm in trouble! Sounds comical but it's true.
> 
> All of my buddies tell me that that they wouldn't do half of what I do for their wives and they are treated very well by their spouses.
> 
> I have many female friends, including my my wife's friends who comment all the time that my wife is very lucky to have a husband like me.
> 
> Another sad example: She wanted to go to Europe, so last summer I sent her and the girls to London and Paris. They came back after two weeks, I had cleaned the house, done the laundry, stocked the fridge and met them at the airport with flowers in hand. Did I get anything??? Not even a kiss and believe me I tried to kiss her, hug her, have sex...nothing. Absolutely cold.
> 
> *Just writing all this makes it obvious.*


That you are a doormat and have no self respect ?? Dude, I am pissed off for you!! Grow some balls!!! Maybe your lack of any self respect turns her off.

The people on this thread, your counselor, your friends all tell you the same thing. And you are just whining about how she treats you. You are no way an Alpha!!


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## Thound

You are setting a bad example to your kids by being a doormat. They need to see you wear the daddy pants. I gaurntee they know somethings up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

She may want to stay for the kids or for the lifestyle but she sure isn't staying for you at this point. And you don't "ask" for a divorce -- you let her know if things don't change you WILL get one since you don't need her permission to divorce and don't intend to live this way the rest of your life. Something's very wrong. Maybe it can be fixed or maybe not but it's time to find out.


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## Reg

Thanks for all the feedback.

I would be happy if she showed any sexual interest at all but she seems to have no need.

I'm just f***ed up because of the kids. I love them and don't want to hurt them but I also realize I cannot continue living life like this.

I make tough decisions every day, I run a very large successful business, other leaders seek my advice, staff come to me for advice on personal issues, I fix issues...little that everyone knows that I am failure in my personal life with my marriage.

I'm not a doormat in business; quite the opposite. 

Just have to grow a pair and make the clear decision.


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## PBear

LnghrnFan said:


> If she doesn't believe in divorce and wants to stay together for the sake of the kids, then she needs to put some effort into making the marriage work. I would create a crisis by giving her an ultimatum. Either she agrees to seriously go to marriage counseling and make some changes, or you move out. She needs to understand that you're serious. Make sure you have somewhere to go. And don't make things easy on her. She's a SAHM, so it may be hard for her, but your marriage can't go on this way. Praying it all works out!


Clarification... Don't tell her you'll move out. Talk to a lawyer so you understand your rights, responsibilities, and options. Moving out is often not the right option. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Have you looked at the phone records.
You can hire a pi.
Or just go straight to d.
What you are doing now is toxic to the kids and you.


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## murphy5

Reg said:


> Yeah; She's always pissed with me...I ask her to pass the ketchup the wrong way and I'm in trouble! Sounds comical but it's true.
> 
> 
> Another sad example: She wanted to go to Europe, so last summer I sent her and the girls to London and Paris. They came back after two weeks, I had cleaned the house, done the laundry, stocked the fridge and met them at the airport with flowers in hand. Did I get anything??? Not even a kiss and believe me I tried to kiss her, hug her, have sex...nothing. Absolutely cold.
> 
> Just writing all this makes it obvious.


What, not even a nice bottle of scotch? That would have been the last straw for me...no more mister nice guy.

Let the games begin! STOP enabling her crappy behavior. Take control of the finances, put her on a tight budget. Spend time and money on you and the kids, but not her. Leave her out of stuff. Maybe she will get the message. If not....life is too short to put up with all that. Leave


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## barbados

Reg said:


> When I asked her for a divorce last year she said that she doesn't believe in divorce and she wants to stay together for the sake of the kids. She has never said that she wants to stay for me.
> 
> I have been to two separate counsellors. *Both have said that my marriage is over an that I am basically an idiot for doing all things that I do for her and for trying to save our marriage.*


OP. Well there you have it. 

She has checked out. She does not love you anymore. And don't think she can't be cheating just because she said so. ALL cheaters deny.

If you are 44, im great shape and financially well off, there are a world of women who would line up to be with you.

You're miserable by choice at this point !

D ASAP !


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## JuliannaMills

Why don't you go on vacation by yourself or with some friends. It's really not fair to you to be living with a roommate rather than a wife. You've tried, she doesn't seem to want to change anything, she's comfortable, you're not. Maybe she doesn't believe you'll really leave her. Make a dramatic change, maybe even play it off and tell her that you found someone else and see how she reacts... I just dont think she realizes what she has until it's gone. She's gotten to comfortable and doesn't seem appreciative at all. Enough of being Mr nice guy - you've enabled her...


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## bild-a-loco

Reg said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> I have asked her if she was having an affair and she said no. I believe her.
> 
> I have asked her the reason why she treats me this way and there is no answer from her other than from time to time I may get upset about something and she doesn't like that. I am human and of course can't be 100% happy all the time.
> 
> As for my work; I do do work very hard but have scaled it back so that I only work late one or two nights a week max. I can't quit...the family has become accustomed to a lifestyle; I know it's my fault.
> 
> I have initiated sex probably 20 times in the last year; rejected every time. She won't kiss me with any passion when she does (also, no kisses for over a year).
> 
> Oh and I forgot...she NEVER says that she loves me.
> 
> When I asked her for a divorce last year she said that she doesn't believe in divorce and she wants to stay together for the sake of the kids. She has never said that she wants to stay for me.
> 
> I have been to two separate counsellors. Both have said that my marriage is over an that I am basically an idiot for doing all things that I do for her and for trying to save our marriage.


Reg, TWO different therapists have told you it's time to throw in the towel, and you're on an internet forum hoping somebody here can give you magic advice? 

They know a lot more of your story, I'm certain, than we do, but if they're saying "give up" then it's probably time to give up. From what you've described, she's already written you off, she's just waiting for the kids to be old enough for her satisfaction so she can then scrape you off her boots and leave you when the timing suits her. Why put yourself through that? 

Get to a lawyer and see what he thinks your best options are. Again, a lot of us have problems here, but when a partner is deliberately unwilling to work with you and is being downright cruel, there really is no sense trying to make that work - stop trying, get an exit strategy in place, and find a woman who won't be a complete worm to you. Good luck bro...


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## flyer

Reg & I are in the same boat. The only difference is I've been married 33 years, have 2 daughters (19 & 24), self-employed and have a VERY well established business. I could never afford a divorce. I'm 55, she's 52. We're both very healthy, no physical inabilities at all, no smoking, or drinking. Just average, fit & trim folks.

My father-in-law passed away 1 1/2 years ago at the age of 70. 5 years prior to that, he had an affair with a 40 year old woman. MIL had filed for divorce. They reconciled and everything worked out. I tell this, because, if the old saying "the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree" is true, I see why he did what he did. He actually had nothing to loose. (not much in the way of assets) He was working for his brother, who has done extremely well for himself, and would have taken care of him.

I have TOO much to loose. My business.
I did confront her a few years ago. She said she couldn't help being un-affectionate, that's just the way she was raised. I always tried to "cuddle", hug, kiss, or just be close and all she would do is push me away, or roll over on her side of the bed with her back to me.
The past year and a half, she hasn't touched me at all, except to get on the back of the motorcycle with me. She is friendly to me, nice to me, does the laundry, cooks, not mean in any way. Just stone cold. Now if I "demanded" we have sex, snuggle, or whatever, she'd probably oblige, just because I wanted to. But if it's a hollow thing, what's the point? Counciling would be the same thing, just give in because I want it.

Wow, I've wanted to vent this for a long time. Thanks.


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## Abc123wife

Reg said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> I would be happy if she showed any sexual interest at all but she seems to have no need.
> 
> I'm just f***ed up because of the kids. I love them and don't want to hurt them but I also realize I cannot continue living life like this.
> 
> I make tough decisions every day, I run a very large successful business, other leaders seek my advice, staff come to me for advice on personal issues, I fix issues...little that everyone knows that I am failure in my personal life with my marriage.
> 
> I'm not a doormat in business; quite the opposite.
> 
> Just have to grow a pair and make the clear decision.


It sounds like its time for a serious discussion with your wife. If you are serious, you should let let her know that she may not "believe" in divorce but you don't believe in a sexless marriage either. Give her a deadline to find a full-time job and separate financial accounts. Cut access to credit cards, but pay all the household essentials. Let her know that you are cutting back on all non-essentials. Tell her you are adjusting life style to fit the upcoming divorce. Then cut further communication other than essentials for the kids. Maybe she might decide to take you seriously.

Concerning the kids' well-being, a happy father, even if it has to involve divorce, has to be better than seeing their mom not wanting to even be in the same room as their dad. That is no way to live or the model for a healthy relationship for the kids to grow up witnessing. Kids are far happier with the simple things in life if it is a happy environment. No amount of materialistic extras make kids happy if in a miserable environment. And yeah, parents snarling at each other and not able to even sit in the same room is a miserable environment for kids.


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## john117

Could it be that she wants out and a nice divorce settlement and child support?

If she's not interacting with you at all why would she want to remain married?


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## lifeistooshort

This doesn't sound like typical detachment to me, this sounds like a wife that can't stand you. I don't believe you ever addressed what happened 10 years ago when this started; what happened?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reg

john117 said:


> Could it be that she wants out and a nice divorce settlement and child support?
> 
> If she's not interacting with you at all why would she want to remain married?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reg

Reg said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Approximately 10 years ago she started to become more focused on the kids and less on me. It was gradual and I kept mentioning it to her but no change in her behavior. She would sleep on the couch until 2 in the morning (and still does) then come to bed a lie down as far as possible from me. 

She is not after the money, she wants a stable upbringing for the girls. 

I have told her that I feel invisible. 

It is very humiliating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion

Reg said:


> Approximately 10 years ago she started to become more focused on the kids and less on me. It was gradual and I kept mentioning it to her but no change in her behavior. She would sleep on the couch until 2 in the morning (and still does) then come to bed a lie down as far as possible from me.
> 
> She is not after the money, she wants a stable upbringing for the girls.
> 
> I have told her that I feel invisible.
> 
> It is very humiliating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel for you. The whole thing about sleeping on the couch waiting for you to go to sleep, then coming in there and laying as far as possible from you is heart breaking.


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## Thebes

Reg said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> I have asked her if she was having an affair and she said no. I believe her.
> 
> I have asked her the reason why she treats me this way and there is no answer from her other than from time to time I may get upset about something and she doesn't like that. I am human and of course can't be 100% happy all the time.
> 
> As for my work; I do do work very hard but have scaled it back so that I only work late one or two nights a week max. I can't quit...the family has become accustomed to a lifestyle; I know it's my fault.
> 
> I have initiated sex probably 20 times in the last year; rejected every time. She won't kiss me with any passion when she does (also, no kisses for over a year).
> 
> Oh and I forgot...she NEVER says that she loves me.
> 
> When I asked her for a divorce last year she said that she doesn't believe in divorce and she wants to stay together for the sake of the kids. She has never said that she wants to stay for me.
> 
> I have been to two separate counsellors. Both have said that my marriage is over an that I am basically an idiot for doing all things that I do for her and for trying to save our marriage.


I know how it feels to have a spouse that never tells you they love you. Its probably a good sign they don't.

I honestly think your marriage is over as mine probably is.

She could be cheating, they rarely tell you the truth. Another thing it could be is hormones. Has she ever had her hormones checked. If the desires isn't there it could be why she avoids contact with you because she is afraid it will lead to sex.


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## Openminded

You're right -- you are invisible to her. And she's fine with that. Not a good way to live, obviously, since life can be long and seem even longer in an unhappy marriage. 

Don't think -- and she shouldn't either -- that children don't pick up on unhappy marriages. They are more perceptive than parents think.


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## Marduk

DoF said:


> So your idea is to threaten her with "getting some on the side....possibly"
> 
> How about just telling her that what she is doing is not acceptable and the marriage will not work/go on.
> 
> This one seems like a done deal for sure


Because he's already done that. She doesn't care, because she doesn't think it's a real possibility.

It's not a threat.

It's not "dread game."

It's a demonstration of reality. Reality is that he can go out and have fun without her.

Looking good/attractive and going out doesn't mean cheating, but it sure as hell is a shot across the bow.

Again, it's reality. He CAN do better than her, and WILL do better than her if she doesn't come to the table.


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> I would be happy if she showed any sexual interest at all but she seems to have no need.
> 
> I'm just f***ed up because of the kids. I love them and don't want to hurt them but I also realize I cannot continue living life like this.
> 
> I make tough decisions every day, I run a very large successful business, other leaders seek my advice, staff come to me for advice on personal issues, I fix issues...little that everyone knows that I am failure in my personal life with my marriage.
> 
> I'm not a doormat in business; quite the opposite.
> 
> Just have to grow a pair and make the clear decision.


Dude, you are me.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> Yeah; She's always pissed with me...I ask her to pass the ketchup the wrong way and I'm in trouble! Sounds comical but it's true.
> 
> All of my buddies tell me that that they wouldn't do half of what I do for their wives and they are treated very well by their spouses.
> 
> I have many female friends, including my my wife's friends who comment all the time that my wife is very lucky to have a husband like me.
> 
> Another sad example: She wanted to go to Europe, so last summer I sent her and the girls to London and Paris. They came back after two weeks, I had cleaned the house, done the laundry, stocked the fridge and met them at the airport with flowers in hand. Did I get anything??? Not even a kiss and believe me I tried to kiss her, hug her, have sex...nothing. Absolutely cold.
> 
> Just writing all this makes it obvious.


It's because she doesn't respect you.

If she doesn't respect you, there's no tingles, no love, no nothing.

You're just a pay check and a housekeeper at this point.


----------



## Reg

Thebes said:


> I know how it feels to have a spouse that never tells you they love you. Its probably a good sign they don't.
> 
> I honestly think your marriage is over as mine probably is.
> 
> She could be cheating, they rarely tell you the truth. Another thing it could be is hormones. Has she ever had her hormones checked. If the desires isn't there it could be why she avoids contact with you because she is afraid it will lead to sex.


It does not feel good to go to bed alone, never hearing "I love you ". Even on valentine's, I bring flowers and gifts and I get absolutely nothing, not even a touch. 

I have given her a 5 star life and no one including my counselors can figure out what I have done wrong. 

The only thing she keeps saying is that she doesn't like it if I get mad about something...I am a very even tempered person, I never yell and rarely get angry. I have explained to her that on the rare occasions that I am angry it is because I am working like a dog, providing for her and I am getting nothing...the resentment builds up. 

She has zero empathy for me no matter what I'm going through in business. I keep telling her that I feel like a slave and that she only needs me to go to work and bring home the money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> She has zero empathy for me no matter what I'm going through in business. I keep telling her that I feel like a slave and that she only needs me to go to work and bring home the money.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For now, stop talking about your feelings.

Don't make threats you will not back up.

Your actions will speak far, far more than your words.

Honestly dude, I went down a similar path, please consider your next steps carefully.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> For now, stop talking about your feelings.
> 
> Don't make threats you will not back up.
> 
> Your actions will speak far, far more than your words.
> 
> Honestly dude, I went down a similar path, please consider your next steps carefully.


Hey bro... If her actions show you she doesn't really care about you at all, then eventually you need to wise up. Forget about what comes out of her mouth.

What do her actions say?


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Hey bro... If her actions show you she doesn't really care about you at all, then eventually you need to wise up. Forget about what comes out of her mouth.
> 
> What do her actions say?


I'm agreeing with you.


----------



## treyvion

Reg said:


> It does not feel good to go to bed alone, never hearing "I love you ". Even on valentine's, I bring flowers and gifts and I get absolutely nothing, not even a touch.
> 
> I have given her a 5 star life and no one including my counselors can figure out what I have done wrong.


We've had a $300k/yr, super handsome well built Alpha of a male get used by his wife as a paycheck with no reciprocation, kindness or sex. We've had other men no matter their stature become used in the same way. The fault is not on you, but on her.



Reg said:


> The only thing she keeps saying is that she doesn't like it if I get mad about something...I am a very even tempered person, I never yell and rarely get angry. I have explained to her that on the rare occasions that I am angry it is because I am working like a dog, providing for her and I am getting nothing...the resentment builds up.


Stop being her dog. It's as simple as that. I wouldn't give to someone who doesn't give and share with me. 



Reg said:


> She has zero empathy for me no matter what I'm going through in business. I keep telling her that I feel like a slave and that she only needs me to go to work and bring home the money.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That lack of empathy is the reality of she does not really care about you. I wouldn't complain to her about jack.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> I'm agreeing with you.


Some one can have a bad day or day(s). But if the basic priority of you is very low and the actions are saying they don't really value you over several weeks to several months and even over years, at some point you have to listen.

The great thing is that there is wind in your sails you will recieve when you lose the "leeches". I didn't say the wife was, but maybe in your life she truly is. They come in all forms, can even be your own mother.

Your attitude will improve, you will have new opportunity a brighter and happier and more free outlook.


----------



## Marduk

I'll tell you this.

With wife #1 I treated her like gold. At 26 I was pulling six figures, was voted best looking guy in my high school, and was featured as one of the sexiest guys in my university. I was at the top of my game.

She still cheated on me with a total no-ambition ugly loser and treated me like crap. 

I still think I could have saved that marriage but I'm sure as hell glad I didn't.

Wife #2 is awesome, but we went through a crappy spell. Part of it was her, but the only thing I could change with me.

Turns out in both marriages I became a pleaser.

So eventually, I got walked all over by both wives. Wife #1 got the shock of her life when I didn't curl up in a ball and die, I partied my ass off and got laid like crazy, then married a younger, hotter wife.

Wife #2 got the shock of her life when I started acting like she did. And came around when she realized that if she wasn't going to come to the table and work on this marriage that we were done... and I would still have an awesome life.

What I'm saying is that you can get out of this buddy. In a way that means you win either way.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> I'll tell you this.
> 
> With wife #1 I treated her like gold. At 26 I was pulling six figures, was voted best looking guy in my high school, and was featured as one of the sexiest guys in my university. I was at the top of my game.
> 
> She still cheated on me with a total no-ambition ugly loser and treated me like crap.


Some times you can be stellar if someone brought out a checklist... But you still get cheated on, perhaps she was sexually attracted to the other guy who wasn't as perfect. Or sometimes it can be your spouse becomes competitive with you in a negative way, and will cheat on you for the WIN.



marduk said:


> I still think I could have saved that marriage but I'm sure as hell glad I didn't.


But why?



marduk said:


> Wife #2 is awesome, but we went through a crappy spell. Part of it was her, but the only thing I could change with me.
> 
> Turns out in both marriages I became a pleaser.
> 
> So eventually, I got walked all over by both wives. Wife #1 got the shock of her life when I didn't curl up in a ball and die, I partied my ass off and got laid like crazy, then married a younger, hotter wife.


As you should.



marduk said:


> Wife #2 got the shock of her life when I started acting like she did. And came around when she realized that if she wasn't going to come to the table and work on this marriage that we were done... and I would still have an awesome life.


Now your talking



marduk said:


> What I'm saying is that you can get out of this buddy. In a way that means you win either way.


And you should.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> But why?


Because I could do better, and because I'm so much happier at the worst of times in my marriage now than the best of times in marriage #1.


----------



## indiecat

She won't change unless she stands to lose something. 

Tell her what you need, minimum of weekly sex, date nights every two weeks, a proper dinner left for you when you come home. These are minimum demands. Tell her you love her but won't live like a single man. She either agrees to these minimal requests or you want three month separation to assess your feelings. 

Then do it. You are in your fourties, not your seventies, this is b.s.

If you tell her your needs and she won't meet them, then why stick around for another decade of this? If she loved you and respected you she would gladly accommodate these normal interactions.


----------



## Marduk

indiecat said:


> She won't change unless she stands to lose something.
> 
> Tell her what you need, minimum of weekly sex, date nights every two weeks, a proper dinner left for you when you come home. These are minimum demands. Tell her you love her but won't live like a single man. She either agrees to these minimal requests or you want three month separation to assess your feelings.
> 
> Then do it. You are in your fourties, not your seventies, this is b.s.
> 
> If you tell her your needs and she won't meet them, then why stick around for another decade of this? If she loved you and respected you she would gladly accommodate these normal interactions.


I like where you're going, but I'd make it very very simple.

Next time you talk about it, say:

"Wife, I expect any marriage to be a part of to include sex 3-4 times a week willingly, a wife that kisses me hello and goodbye, and tells me she loves me and means it."

Then turn around and walk out the door rather than sit there and fight about it and listen to stupid rationalizations about how she's the wronged one here.

That's what I did.


----------



## john117

Such approaches could work well in many cases, but OP has to determine what kind of a financial hole he is in in case he initiates divorce. If he's earning good money the amount will not be trivial, and he will be handing Mrs. Ex OP an awesome gift horse.

Of course she likely knows all that so...


----------



## Nucking Futs

john117 said:


> Such approaches could work well in many cases, but OP has to determine what kind of a financial hole he is in in case he initiates divorce. If he's earning good money the amount will not be trivial, and he will be handing Mrs. Ex OP an awesome gift horse.
> 
> Of course she likely knows all that so...


At this point what does it matter. Give her a big chunk of change to go away, but make sure you get 50/50 custody of the kids. You'll have to live a little smaller but you'll be free to find a woman that will love you and be worthy of your love.

I wouldn't bother talking any more. Just file, let the process server do your talking.


----------



## sittingonthedock

The World is made up of two kinds of people. There are givers, and there are takers. It is really that simple.

Of course there are also doormats. Don't be a doormat. Your daughters are watching and learning.


----------



## Just Joe

marduk said:


> I like where you're going, but I'd make it very very simple.
> 
> Next time you talk about it, say:
> 
> "Wife, I expect any marriage to be a part of to include sex 3-4 times a week willingly, a wife that kisses me hello and goodbye, and tells me she loves me and means it."
> 
> Then turn around and walk out the door rather than sit there and fight about it and listen to stupid rationalizations about how she's the wronged one here.
> 
> That's what I did.


I don't think I've ever read so many good posts from the same poster in one thread.


----------



## Reg

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Reg

I didn't go on that trip because it was really for them, they wanted to visit all the royalty attractions...not my thing. 

We go on 2-3 vacations a year as a family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Reg

I agree, great advice! Thanks. 

I'm going to make my demands and not be negotiable. Money is not going to hold me back...I can't live like this and I earn enough to live well on less than half. hey, my next wife will probably be working so not much of a financial hit 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

So what's going on?

She likely feels trapped financially and by the kids and resents him and his needs. No sympathy!

Neither is happy. She might feel that having sex with him would be like having sex with a father or brother, it makes her cringe.

She feels some guilt and so throws some blame.

The currency that buys her attraction and affection is not there.
The reason? 

There are several possibilities including what has been mentioned.

Can he become an awesome man who is too good a catch to lose (to her)? By that I mean do the MMSL and run the map.
Maybe.

If he cannot I would be worried what will happen when she thinks the kids are old enough to handle it.

Can you say WAW? That could be the final stop on this track.

How many years are you willing to put into this to find out?

Its ugly.

It simply could be that he is no longer a challenge to her and she has lost interest IDK.

(BTW REG this is no slight on you AT ALL, there is no doubt under the right circumstances that a very worthy woman would be very hot for you. Don't doubt yourself!!!)

I am sorry I hope you can find some help here that will make a difference. I do wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Take her off the checking account and cards. Start giving her a small allowance to run the household. Make every one of her luxuries conditional. Stop all affection and freeze her out. Once the money is cut off she'll believe in divorce. She only said she doesn't because she wants to keep riding the gravy train.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Why in the world is she still sitting home as a SAHM when both kids are in school full time? She NEEDS to get a job. When you divorce her (which is going to happen, sorry..) make sure you dont agree to some crazy spousal support agreement, make her go out and work! 

She doesnt believe in divorce? Well thats just too damn bad, because you can get one without her ever lifting a finger in the process. I did it. 

I can almost GUARANTEE YOU that she is cheating on you! You make good money, hire a PI to follow her around for a bit. My gut is screaming at me over this one, Reg, and my gut is rarely wrong.


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> I agree, great advice! Thanks.
> 
> I'm going to make my demands and not be negotiable. Money is not going to hold me back...I can't live like this and I earn enough to live well on less than half. hey, my next wife will probably be working so not much of a financial hit
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They aren't demands, don't think this way!

They are requirements for you to be married. If you were dating her, would you propose to her if she were acting this way? If not, why are you putting up with it?

Demands are things you want of _her_. Requirements are things you need to _stick to the contract_.

Children demand. Hostage takers demand. Adults have requirements to agree to the terms and conditions of a binding contract. Which is what marriage _is_.

If she wants to be married to you, she works on fulfilling them. 

If she doesn't, she steps aside for you to find them elsewhere.

That's why they have to be simple, basic, human needs. Not "wear a cheerleader costume and call me big daddy." Not stuff you _want_.

Stuff you need. Stuff most humans need. Stuff you would understand her needing if the roles were reversed.


----------



## DoF

Step 1, I would hire private investigator and start checkign her phone/internet history ASAP (maybe spy software of some kind).

Goal: get as much evidence as possible.

Chances are HIGH she is doing something on the side. DO NOT believe a WORD she says.

Step 2 - talk to a lawyer and get an idea where you will land after the divorce and how much it will cost etc. You will need to think about all this and consider it.

Step 3- Divorce


----------



## Married but Happy

If you are going to divorce and take a big hit financially, consider any major expenditure you want to make for yourself that you can do before filing. Especially if it's a trip or experience (vs. an asset) you can enjoy by yourself, cosmetic surgery, etc., do it now while you needn't worry about how that will affect a divorce negotiation.

The PI is also a good idea, especially if you live in a state where infidelity can affect the award of alimony or the asset split. Hopefully this will turn up nothing (you don't need that emotional turmoil), but it's better to know and have any ammunition to use in negotiations.


----------



## changedbeliefs

She's checked out of the marriage, who cares the reason, and who cares about labeling her for why she did it. Just lost the spark? Personally unfulfilled (lots of years, only identity is 'mom')? This may not be a realistic statement, but I feel it's true: you need to approach this very simply, and rationally. Yes, give her those list of demands, you're a businessman, it's like any other negotiation: You need A, B and C: is she willing? If not, are you willing to compromise? If not, then this thing is over. This is your lives, man, why spend time torturing each other if you both aren't getting what you need out of this? There's a zillion other people in the world, go find someone that fits what you need, both of you.

I'm curious, it seems like some threads go one way, some go the other: no "you have to stick it out, you made a promise to each other" posts in this one? What makes that sentiment govern some discussions, but not enter others?


----------



## Time4Joy

Sorry you're there as I was once myself. Waited until the last kid left for college and then brought down the hammer. Successful in my career. Respected and appreciated by colleagues. Volunteer for local nonprofit shelter. Treated like sh*t by an entitled wife who had become a shrill parasite. 

My advice, start a journal and work toward a conclusion. Men need structure and this provides an on-going direction and reason for your choices. I read mine now every now and then and ask myself how could I have put up with that stuff for so long. 

Develop a plan and carry through protecting yourself against a rapacious spouse who WILL play dirty on a scale that will be just breathtaking. 

Oh, and as for the kiddos...my daughter now in late 20s asked me on Father's Day, "Why did you put up with all of mom's crazy stuff for so long?" They know and as others have said, you are setting THE example for their own interpersonal relationships by the way you allow yourself to be treated.


----------



## changedbeliefs

My EA partner and I - for as much pain and strain it caused - did have some good conversations about life, as we tried to sort through the mess. A sentiment that kept coming up was, "don't I owe it to my kids, to show them that their mom/dad deserve to be happy?" Now, the determination of whether you are happy or unhappy, and why, is a tricky one, but the idea still holds: I think kids can tell when a parent is unhappy, and moreover, when they'e just laying down and taking the punches.

What I read between the lines in Time4Joy's post is, the matter-of-fact way his daughter said that, and her attitude towards it. I don't envision a tone of her own resentment or anything: she can love her dad, and her mom, and still genuinely, somewhat objectively, realize, "gee, why did you guys allow yourselves to be unhappy?"


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Because I could do better, and because I'm so much happier at the worst of times in my marriage now than the best of times in marriage #1.


But why have saved it if she showed you who she was?


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> But why have saved it if she showed you who she was?


Sorry I'm confused.

I'm glad I didn't save marriage #1. Wife was... well, just a crappy wife. Still is single, still no kids, still... a train wreck.

I'm saying I could have saved it knowing what I know now. At least a good chance. But I'm glad I didn't.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Sorry I'm confused.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't save marriage #1. Wife was... well, just a crappy wife. Still is single, still no kids, still... a train wreck.
> 
> I'm saying I could have saved it knowing what I know now. At least a good chance. But I'm glad I didn't.


But why would you want to win that contest? Win a bad wife a terrible partner with some tricks you learn on here... You did right.

Man...


----------



## tom67

Reg please hire a PI.
At least rule it out (cheating)


----------



## Emerald

You said you are torn because of your children & I get it & commend you for it. Most here will say DIVORCE NOW but we both know when children are involved it is not an easy decision. I was in a bad marriage but made the choice to leave when my girls went off to college & it was the right decision in my situation. My girls KNEW the marriage was bad but they as young adults have never scolded me for staying in a bad marriage. They loved both Mom & Dad & the state of our marriage was not their primary concern. Navigating through the turmoil of adolescence, friends, school, activities, boyfriends was. An intact family home made it easier on them.

Yes, I had an unhappy marriage but it did not define my entire life. I had other things going on & I had a plan to leave in the future. My childrens' happiness & emotional well being was more important then having a good marriage. I stopped "hoping" for a better marriage like you are doing. I accepted it for what it was, not what it could be after all attempts at improving the marriage were exhausted. Once I found acceptance, I was able to move forward with a plan. Remember, hope is not a plan. I never worried that I would be too old for another relationship. Part of my plan was keeping myself in shape & interesting. I am happy to say I did meet a more compatible man & have been re-married for 3 years. Also, staying together for the sake of the children is not a popular viewpoint on TAM but some of us have successfully navigated this.

I like others, feel that we are not getting all of the details as to why your wife's actions seem to imply that she does not even if LIKE you anymore.


----------



## Marduk

I don't think this is necessarily done, or necessarily cheating.

I mean, odds are stacked against you, sure. But it may be worth a shot. Only you can decide that.


----------



## Reg

We never fight in front of the kids, we don't fight at all.

The kids may suspect something only because we never go out together anywhere, no dinners or movies...heck my wife will find every excuse to take separate cars to the same place!

I love my kids dearly and have worked this hard to give them the best upbringing possible but I think that the best thing may be to stick it out a few more years until my youngest goes off to school then I'm gone.

I'm already a stranger to my wife; she has zero interest in my life so what are we going to do when we don't have the kids in the house? I have told her this but it falls on deaf ears.Divorce/separation is not in question; the only question is which one and when.


----------



## Reg

I can't seem to figure out why it seems that my wife doesn't even "like" me any more...no one can. My friends, counsellors and siblings can't figure it out.

She has become more and more obsessed with the kids and ignores me. The crazy part is I don'y think she is doing it to be mean...I actually think she has no idea how to be a wife!

I have explained to her that a marriage is not just about the kids; that she has to make time for herself and for us. And that if she doesn't we are destined for failure as a couple.


----------



## DoF

Reg said:


> We never fight in front of the kids, we don't fight at all.


That's not good either. NOTHING taken to the extreme is good. Above is an extreme.

Your kids should see and witness some conflict. It's NOT all fine and dandy. And when they find out that you guys are getting divorce it will be THAT much of a shock.

Now I'm not talking about all out screaming fight here either. But your usualy disagreements etc, it's good to have your kids see/witness how adults should fight fairly and in an adult way.



Reg said:


> I'm already a stranger to my wife; she has zero interest in my life so what are we going to do when we don't have the kids in the house? I have told her this but it falls on deaf ears.Divorce/separation is not in question; the only question is which one and when.


Are you really considering "separation" when you have been living in separation for many years as is?

Take a good/deep look in her eyes and tell her things either change or it's over.

But I would suggest you follow the plan first. See what's going on with her, chances are high she is cheating. Get evidence.....talk to a lawyer.

Remember, you can be pretty screwed if you proceed with the divorce as our justice system is unbalanced and in HER favor. More evidence you have against her, better off you will be.

I'm sure Lawyer will tell you AND her that as well.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> *I can't seem to figure out why it seems that my wife doesn't even "like" me any more...no one can. My friends, counsellors and siblings can't figure it out.
> *
> She has become more and more obsessed with the kids and ignores me. The crazy part is I don'y think she is doing it to be mean...I actually think she has no idea how to be a wife!
> 
> I have explained to her that a marriage is not just about the kids; that she has to make time for herself and for us. And that if she doesn't we are destined for failure as a couple.


Because she has someone else on the side who she likes better. And you are getting in their way.


----------



## DoF

3Xnocharm said:


> Because she has someone else on the side who she likes better. And you are getting in their way.


Yep/agreed

And when that person doesn't work out, she will come crawling back. Heck chances are high she will come crawling back regardless.

That's when you show her the door....DO NOT PROCEED.


----------



## Amplexor

Your wife does not love you!
Your wife does not respect you!
Your wife does not care about you!
Your wife can't stand to be around you!
Your wife is using you for the money!

This goes way deeper than just a sexless marriage. Find a good lawyer and file for divorce. Don't do it to try and shock her into the relationship. If she makes changes, they won't last. File and walk away. Sorry, this one is done.


----------



## warlock07

Reg, enough talking.

Or make a new post in a couple of years when the new posters come around. 

You take too much pride in being a doormat(though you call it providing for the family a lifestyle. ). 

You are putting too much pressure on yourself to make it work because of the need to put a strong happy family front to your peers and sub-ordinates due to your leadership position. You think you will be a failure infront of everyone if you ended up divorcing isn't it ?


Open your mind a little. Let it all go for a few days. Look beyond the panic of making things work to protect your image. Calm yourself and have a few days of introspection. You will observe a few things about yourself and your wife that you haven't earlier. 

And please verify the infidelity angle


----------



## Omego

Reg said:


> ...heck my wife will find every excuse to take separate cars to the same place!


 What in the world. I've been cringing all throughout this thread. I can't believe what you are describing. I agree with 3xnocharm, I'm afraid. She's either got someone else, or someone else in mind. It sounds like she's literally repulsed by you (sorry to be so blunt). And even if we are wrong about the potential cheating, there is no excuse for her not being honest with you and telling you flat out what the problem is.

Unless there is some major terrible thing you have done that you have not mentioned, it seems that her behavior is so over the top that there is absolutely no way that this marriage can be saved.

Solve the problem and end the marriage. Why does she treat you this way? Because she can. She probably just thinks you'll continue to put up with it, and end up accepting the situation.


----------



## barbados

warlock07 said:


> Reg, enough talking.
> 
> Or make a new post in a couple of years when the new posters come around.
> 
> You take too much pride in being a doormat(though you call it providing for the family a lifestyle. ).
> 
> You are putting too much pressure on yourself to make it work because of the need to put a strong happy family front to your peers and sub-ordinates due to your leadership position. You think you will be a failure infront of everyone if you ended up divorcing isn't it ?
> 
> 
> Open your mind a little. Let it all go for a few days. Look beyond the panic of making things work to protect your image. Calm yourself and have a few days of introspection. You will observe a few things about yourself and your wife that you haven't earlier.
> 
> And please verify the infidelity angle


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Did I mention that I agree with this ?


----------



## AliceA

Definitely sounds like she doesn't like you. Since nobody is perfect I have to admit I find it hard to believe you are so incredibly wonderful and yet your own wife doesn't like you. I don't know you, so don't take this personally since I could be way off the mark, but is it possible you are actually not a particularly nice person to your wife in reality; that you only think you are because you talk the talk and tell everyone you are, that you buy stuff and think it should mean something to her.

Is it possible that when you talk to her she's not hearing a man that loves her but a patronising/critical/arrogant person who doesn't particularly care about her, but only about what she can do for him? Is it possible that she's focused on the children because they are the only ones she feels genuinely love her?


----------



## Anomnom

Reg said:


> As for my work; I do work very hard but have scaled it back so that I only work late one or two nights a week max. I can't quit...the family has become accustomed to a lifestyle; I know it's my fault.


You've said multiple times that no one, counselors, friends, siblings, yourself, have no idea why your wife doesn't like you but from reading your story I think it's really obvious (as a woman speaking). *You spent so much time working that you neglected her and your relationship. * In your mind you were showing your love for your family by providing for them but I can guarantee that all those hours that you were at work and not spending time with her, and later your young children, wore her down bit by bit over the years until she completely emotionally shut down and now has nothing left to give you. I can also guarantee that there would've been signs prior to 10 years ago that you didn't address, likely because you were too busy working and didn't realise the long term effect it would have. 

I'm not blaming you, just giving perspective that women and men can express their love very differently and if her emotional needs weren't being met over many years because she felt your work was more important then her (and the kids), she would've and has shut down. 



Reg said:


> The kids may suspect something only because we never go out together anywhere, no dinners or movies...heck my wife will find every excuse to take separate cars to the same place!


 100% your kids know and feel there is no love between their parents and this will teach them how to have adult relationships later in life. Don't ignore this aspect as it is damaging them. 



Reg said:


> I have explained to her that a marriage is not just about the kids; that she has to make time for herself and for us. And that if she doesn't we are destined for failure as a couple.


 Think back to your first few years of marriage..did you make enough time for her and for you both? 

I stopped being in love with my xhb and emotionally shut down on him too towards the end of our marriage, after spending years trying to explain to him what I needed in a marriage but he was happy and didn't think we had any problems so didn't change his behaviour which just made me feel even more distant from him because he was ignoring my pain. Different circumstances from you, but as a woman who shut down on my ex, I just wonder if the same thing happened to her over the course of your marriage when you were never home. 

Also agree that you should put spyware on her computer or hire a PI as she could be having an EA online..or even a PA considering how completely withdrawn from you she has been for so long, she may be getting her needs filled elsewhere.


----------



## Blonde

I agree with anonmom. I picked up on your workaholic tendencies too. Casting Crowns - American Dream - YouTube



Reg said:


> She eats dinner with kids and I might get the leftovers that I can heat up and eat by myself...nice.


Why aren't you home in time to eat dinner with your family?

And here are clips of where you are absent, you are NOT THERE. How much time did you spend with her during courtship? If I was her, I would feel like a possession that you want to take off the shelf and use when you come home at 10pm



Reg said:


> Sometimes I get home late from work (after 10pm), she will barely take her eyes off the tv to say hi.





Reg said:


> I have started do everything alone or with friends, go out eat, movies, coffee, etc. because she doesn't want to do anything with me.





Reg said:


> I workout 5-6 times a week, dress well and know that I still get checked out..





Reg said:


> The resentments and frustration is so great now that I don't like going home.


Why did you not go to Europe WITH your family?



Reg said:


> I am married to a woman that won't spend any time with me, have sex or even touch me; I feel disgusting .


She is married to a man who does not make it home for family meals nor participate in family vacations but makes time to tone his six pack 5-6 days a week. 

I suggest you try this before pulling the trigger on divorce: Marriage Help Program For Couples  There can be no third party in the M though so if either of you is cheating you don't qualify.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Amplexor said:


> Your wife does not love you!
> Your wife does not respect you!
> Your wife does not care about you!
> Your wife can't stand to be around you!
> Your wife is using you for the money!
> 
> This goes way deeper than just a sexless marriage. Find a good lawyer and file for divorce. Don't do it to try and shock her into the relationship. If she makes changes, they won't last. File and walk away. Sorry, this one is done.


Quoting for Truth.

If you try and save this marriage, you're trying to turn hamburger into Filet Mignon. Sorry but there's a point where it has gone too far to repair.


----------



## RAN

Reg,

Why don't you take a day or 2 off from your work & see what is happening in the house.

Just try.


----------



## Happilymarried25

Blonde has some good points. Maybe she has resentment from all the years of being a single parent while you were working. She seems like she is mad at you for something. I think you know your marriage is over, especially is she has no interest in getting counseling. I know you said you want to wait until the children are grown before you leave. I can understand that. I respect you for that. After they leave, you can leave and have the rest of your life to find someone else and live a happily married life.


----------



## Reg

Workaholic? I work approximately 45 hours at the maximum and at the most two nights a week. I have worked this schedule since before we were married. There are the odd times when I may work extra but then I take off time to balance.

With a SAHM and lifestyle to support I cannot apologise for working hard.

When I'm not working I am at home, I don't go drinking with buddies or golf on my personal time. I dedicate all my free and personal time to my family, I work out at 6am and get home before anyone is awake.

As for spending time with my wife, I have always been the initiator. I ask her to go out for walks, meals, coffee, movies...anything. She always has an excuse why she can't go. 
I have had amazing award trips to exotic destinations, she doesn't want to leave the kids with the grandparents. It is very frustrating to either pass on "once in a lifetime" type trips or have to go alone because she won't leave the kids for 2-5 days.

I have always watched the kids since they were babies so that she can have time for herself...I would book spa days and then clean the house, make dinner, take the kids out and play. 
I would get up at night and feed the babies so that she could get a good night's sleep. I would be the first one to wake and watch the babies so that she could sleep in; then go to work. I have tried to be a very thoughtful and supportive husband.

The only explanation I have been given is that she might be suffering from depression. I sat down with her last month and gave her the card of an excellent, trusted therapist. I also gave her books on marriage and relationships; she has not called the therapist nor has she read the books.

I am trying to cover all bases and I'm definitely not perfect; but I'm making every effort to have good marriage and a happy family.


----------



## Blonde

Are you there for most of the family meals? Why didn't you go to Europe with the family?

You sure sound like a thoughtful husband and father. Not to take advantage of those chances for romantic getaways... I don't get it (except when the babies are very young and still breastfeeding). 

I have to join the others who wonder if she is cheating? I learned on TAM that a wife who is in an affair will be monogamous with the AP and leave the H sexless.


----------



## Reg

100% sure not cheating.

I try to come home for meals but the problem is that she doesn't tell me when dinner time actually is. When the girls have after school programs I understand that dinner time has to be shifted to accommodate their schedule but 4 nights a week she will have dinner at any time between 5-7 so I try my best. My office is 45 minutes from home and if she would just tell me when she will have dinner ready I would leave work accordingly so that I am there. When I call and ask about dinner she is usually very curt and simply says "when it's ready". What am I supposed do with that?

Even now it's like pulling teeth to get her to go out for a dinner or even just sit on our deck. And when she does she has a sour look on her face the whole time, does not make for pleasant company.

It is really sad to see her not enjoy life. But you can't force someone to be happy.

I have offered to take her to trips to the Superbowl, mini cruises, island get aways all expense paid by my company...nothing. I come come with beautiful sports cars; she won't go for a ride.

I get new cars for her every six months (I'm in the auto business), I come home excited to give her the latest new model; she will just take the keys without even going out to the driveway to see what it is.

I send flowers, buy jewellery, ask her to do nothing but just hang out with me...no matter what it is can't make her happy when it comes to me.


----------



## Broken at 20

Reg said:


> The only explanation I have been given is that she might be suffering from depression. I sat down with her last month and gave her the card of an excellent, trusted therapist. I also gave her books on marriage and relationships; she has not called the therapist nor has she read the books.
> 
> I am trying to cover all bases and I'm definitely not perfect; but I'm making every effort to have good marriage and a happy family.


You know, you said this has been like this for years. 
I don't think she is depressed. 

She simply doesn't see you as a need on her list. Nor does she have a care for you. 

Here is something from my life:
Both of my parents, barely talk to me! And my birthday was yesterday! Turned 22. (haven't updated my username in a while) Guess what it involved! 
I woke up at 8, went out in the morning to get donuts, went window shopping, came home for lunch, nothing from mom (who I live with) and no call from dad all day. Went out with a friend for dinner, then went a bar. 
When I can, I am cutting most of my entire family out of my life. I don't think my parents notice me most days. 

Does my birthday mirror yours? Or your Valentine's Day? Or Father's Day? Or countless other holidays over the past several years?

Your wife (and I use that term loosely) treats you like this because she can. You have been a better husband in an attempt to make her a better wife. Doesn't seem to be working. 
Your wife is like my parents. No action seems to result in a positive feedback. 

Your marriage is dead. The only one person that keeps trying to convince themselves otherwise, is you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Reg said:


> 100% sure not cheating.


How do you know?


----------



## Blonde

Blonde said:


> Marriage Help Program For Couples


^^This will help improve communication. 

If she is depressed, medication can help but I'm not sure the idea should come from you because she is so checked out. 

Are her family nearby? Is she close to her mother? Perhaps you could have a heart to heart talk with someone your wife respects and would listen to. Your wife should see a doctor and get a full medical workup. 

Thyroid issues can cause depression and reduced energy. Many AD's have the unfortunate side effect of reducing libido. Birth control, and other meds can also reduce libido. Wellbutrin is an AD which tends to improve libido.


----------



## MEM2020

Reg,
Your wife is depriving you of having dinner with your children. And your response is to kill her with kindness and generosity - a new car every 6 months - that she doesn't even say thank you for. 

IME when you aggressively reward a behavior, you get more of it. 





Reg said:


> 100% sure not cheating.
> 
> I try to come home for meals but the problem is that she doesn't tell me when dinner time actually is. When the girls have after school programs I understand that dinner time has to be shifted to accommodate their schedule but 4 nights a week she will have dinner at any time between 5-7 so I try my best. My office is 45 minutes from home and if she would just tell me when she will have dinner ready I would leave work accordingly so that I am there. When I call and ask about dinner she is usually very curt and simply says "when it's ready". What am I supposed do with that?
> 
> Even now it's like pulling teeth to get her to go out for a dinner or even just sit on our deck. And when she does she has a sour look on her face the whole time, does not make for pleasant company.
> 
> It is really sad to see her not enjoy life. But you can't force someone to be happy.
> 
> I have offered to take her to trips to the Superbowl, mini cruises, island get aways all expense paid by my company...nothing. I come come with beautiful sports cars; she won't go for a ride.
> 
> I get new cars for her every six months (I'm in the auto business), I come home excited to give her the latest new model; she will just take the keys without even going out to the driveway to see what it is.
> 
> I send flowers, buy jewellery, ask her to do nothing but just hang out with me...no matter what it is can't make her happy when it comes to me.


----------



## Decorum

Reg said:


> I love my kids dearly and have worked this hard to give them the best upbringing possible
> 
> but I think that the best thing may be to stick it out a few more years until my youngest goes off to school then I'm gone...
> 
> Divorce/separation is not in question; the only question is which one and when.


I think op has been helped and has a bigger picture.

This is his plan to stick it out until the kids are off to school.

It's his life and his call.

He is only putting off his happiness for a few more years now.

Maybe someone here will share something that can turn it around, IDK.

I am sorry REG I know this is not what you envisioned when you got married (I hope you made that clear to her).

If your thread slows I hope you will update us when things change.

Take care!


----------



## Reg

Holidays and special occasions like Valentine's are tough for me because I make an effort, give thoughtful gifts or experiences and I get absolutely nothing in return. If she does anything at all it is for the sake of looking as if she cares in front of the kids and even then it is the bare minimum.

I unfortunately had my uncle pass away a couple of years ago, I very upset as he was very dear to me. She wouldn't even hug me.

Recently, my mentor for over twenty years pass away. He was like a father to me (I would send Father's Day cards to him), again, would not even touch me.

I can see not being touched because it might be construed as affection, god forbid; but even at time when I'm in mourning and upset she can't even touch me. 
Damn; I hate writing this...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Wo
> 
> As for spending time with my wife, I have always been the initiator. I ask her to go out for walks, meals, coffee, movies...anything. She always has an excuse why she can't go.
> I have had amazing award trips to exotic destinations, sh*e doesn't want to leave the kids with the grandparents.* It is very frustrating to either pass on "once in a lifetime" type trips or have to go alone because *she won't leave the kids for 2-5 days.*


Your wife needs to cut the apron strings, here. It is unhealthy to have this kind of attachment to your kids. It is SO important to spend time away from them, ESPECIALLY to spend time with and connect with your spouse. Plus it is GOOD for kids to have time away from their parents, especially spending it with other family members. Parents need to have a strong relationship with each other to be the best parents. This is nuts. 

And...HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE ISNT CHEATING??


----------



## treyvion

Reg said:


> 100% sure not cheating.


You have verified with var, key loggers, social media investigation, cell phone text records?



Reg said:


> I try to come home for meals but the problem is that she doesn't tell me when dinner time actually is. When the girls have after school programs I understand that dinner time has to be shifted to accommodate their schedule but 4 nights a week she will have dinner at any time between 5-7 so I try my best. My office is 45 minutes from home and if she would just tell me when she will have dinner ready I would leave work accordingly so that I am there. When I call and ask about dinner she is usually very curt and simply says "when it's ready". What am I supposed do with that?


Well. She's right. "your right, dinner will be ready when it's ready. If you know about when it will be done for the day I will do my best to be here"



Reg said:


> Even now it's like pulling teeth to get her to go out for a dinner or even just sit on our deck. And when she does she has a sour look on her face the whole time, does not make for pleasant company.


She might be cheating. Would rather be with her OM, who see see's as exciting, as masculine, etc. Either that or she just doesn't want to feel like she answers to you. Doesn't want to feel controlled and has gone overboard with it.




Reg said:


> It is really sad to see her not enjoy life. But you can't force someone to be happy.


Why don't you try being happy without her. You know all the storeis you here of workaholics, don't know whats going on at home, guys addicted to partying,etc only come home to sleep. All their fill of life comes from outside the house. Why not feed her some of this.



Reg said:


> I have offered to take her to trips to the Superbowl, mini cruises, island get aways all expense paid by my company...nothing. I come come with beautiful sports cars; she won't go for a ride.


Take someone else. She might also feel like she doesn't fit in with your life. "You can't buy me..."



Reg said:


> I get new cars for her every six months (I'm in the auto business), I come home excited to give her the latest new model; she will just take the keys without even going out to the driveway to see what it is.


Boy. You need to stop doing this and come down to earth with values of someone who doesn't have as much money as you. Stop trying to be her prince who will put her on a pedastal and blow her mind. She's feeding you some $hit.



Reg said:


> I send flowers, buy jewellery, ask her to do nothing but just hang out with me...no matter what it is can't make her happy when it comes to me.


Stop doing this while you are in this mode. She might not be the one to love life with you.

I don't think something is wrong with her. Figure out how to join her in her thing and not the other way around. Don't "buy" her, be a supportive dad and husband with your time, attention and care.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Holidays and special occasions like Valentine's are tough for me because I make an effort, give thoughtful gifts or experiences and I get absolutely nothing in return. If she does anything at all it is for the sake of looking as if she cares in front of the kids and even then it is the bare minimum.
> 
> I unfortunately had my uncle pass away a couple of years ago, I very upset as he was very dear to me. She wouldn't even hug me.
> 
> Recently, my mentor for over twenty years pass away. He was like a father to me (I would send Father's Day cards to him), again, would not even touch me.
> 
> I can see not being touched because it might be construed as affection, god forbid; but even at time when I'm in mourning and upset she can't even touch me.
> Damn; I hate writing this...


Reg, you need to STOP doing things for her! JUST STOP! You are rewarding her for being a b!tch.


----------



## sittingonthedock

She is treating you like a cuckold. This is so unhealthy for you and your daughters.


----------



## Reg

Yeah I know I should stop...I just wanted to try every approach. I have never tried to "buy" her. 
We met in high school and started our marriage with nothing; built up by ourselves without any help form either sets of parents. 

And now It really is me...I hate to see the "perfect" life that we have built be destroyed.

I have been always faithful even though I have had many opportunities to cheat, that is just not me but it is time to reconsider.

I think I have resigned myself to do the bare minimum for her, tell to get ass to work and continue to devote myself to my kids. And when they they fly the coop I will also  It's only a few more years.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Yeah I know I should stop...I just wanted to try every approach. I have never tried to "buy" her.
> We met in high school and started our marriage with nothing; built up by ourselves without any help form either sets of parents.
> 
> And now It really is me...I hate to see the "perfect" life that we have built be destroyed.
> 
> I have been always faithful even though I have had many opportunities to cheat, that is just not me but it is time to reconsider.
> 
> I think I have resigned myself to do the bare minimum for her, tell to get ass to work and continue to devote myself to my kids. And when they they fly the coop I will also  It's only a few more years.


You DONT HAVE a perfect life! If you stay in this the way it is, you are insane. Why are you in such denial that she is probably cheating? Its like you refuse to even entertain the idea, and you need to pull your head out of the sand about this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Reg said:


> Yeah I know I should stop...I just wanted to try every approach. I have never tried to "buy" her.
> We met in high school and started our marriage with nothing; built up by ourselves without any help form either sets of parents.
> 
> And now It really is me...I hate to see the "perfect" life that we have built be destroyed.
> 
> I have been always faithful even though I have had many opportunities to cheat, that is just not me but it is time to reconsider.
> 
> I think I have resigned myself to do the bare minimum for her, tell to get ass to work and continue to devote myself to my kids. And when they they fly the coop I will also  It's only a few more years.


You've been asked several times how you know she's not cheating, but you won't answer the question. Obviously you don't know, you're just hoping she's not cheating and not willing to check it out.


----------



## treyvion

Reg said:


> Yeah I know I should stop...I just wanted to try every approach. I have never tried to "buy" her.
> We met in high school and started our marriage with nothing; built up by ourselves without any help form either sets of parents.


Didn't know you built it up with her. That's great. So your actions say what's mind is yours, because you helped me to get it.



Reg said:


> And now It really is me...I hate to see the "perfect" life that we have built be destroyed.


Who knows what she really feels... Maybe some of her female friends do... Or family members. Maybe it's not as bad as you think. Or maybe it is bad.



Reg said:


> I have been always faithful even though I have had many opportunities to cheat, that is just not me but it is time to reconsider.


That's great. I hope she's not cheating on you.



Reg said:


> I think I have resigned myself to do the bare minimum for her, tell to get ass to work and continue to devote myself to my kids. And when they they fly the coop I will also  It's only a few more years.


And that might be the end to all your problems right there. Also do things for yourself as well. Once she earns her own money she might appreciate your large contributions much more.... Or she might continue on in a direction without you in which you let her go.


----------



## Decorum

Reg said:


> 100% sure not cheating.


Yay by the time someone posts on here and says this (and it happens often) they are usually wrong.

We get the "You guys were right" two years later.

---------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION?????


I wonder what everyone would think of the following.

In REG's case when would you tell your daughters that the marriage is broken and likely headed to divorce.

I don't think I would wait until they were off to school and came home for break.

I have two college age daughters (2 boys also), I think I would say something like this within the next year or so if I were the OP.



"I love my family but you need to know that your mom and I have not had a real marriage for a long time.

I don't really even know why, I have tried to restore my relationship with your mom but it goes nowhere.

I realize that as my children approach adulthood I am considering divorce. 

Looking back I may have done a disservice to you two by waiting so long. I am not now sure that this was the best example to set on how to deal with marriage problems and I hope you will have a healthier marriage than I have had.

I love you both so much.

I am telling you because I respect you and I do not want to blindside you with this.

I do not want you to get in the middle of this. It is not your place to try to push your mom to some kind of reconciliation.

Of course you can talk to her to get any answers you need for your own life she owes you that, but I do not want you to take sides.

It will not belong before I will not be able to keep this hidden and I want you to hear it from me.

I will answer any questions you have any time you have them, I want you to be able to avoid a failure in marriage of the kind you mom and I have."


I think they need to see the dynamic with their own eyes.
I think the parents owe this to them.
Don't deprive your kids of the truth because of your own shame.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Broken at 20

In an earlier post, you claimed to be alpha, yet you do nothing to support it. Actually, you do the opposite. 

Working out, being successful, and a leader in your business isn't what makes someone alpha. 
A beta male can work out, be hugely successful in his career, and placed in an area of leadership due to his success, without having an ounce of alpha in him. 

You take what your wife says at face value concerning a potential affair. Well, if you don't want to do any fact checking behind that, I got some stock I want to sell you. 

You have taken the abuse your wife has heaped on you over the years. Zero love, zero affection, zero appraisal for your work and efforts, zero appreciation. 
Alpha males don't stand for this. They would tell their wife something is wrong and that it needs to change. Then one of two results come from it: their wife starts actually being a wife instead of a mom only, or they file for divorce. 

Your wife sees you as an ATM, and a sperm donor. And that is being generous.


----------



## MEM2020

Reg,
If you want some help in how to have that conversation, let me know. There is a way to let a wife know that it's in her best interests to get a job. 

You can't make her get a job, but you can suggest it in a manner that makes it most likely she will do so.






Reg said:


> Yeah I know I should stop...I just wanted to try every approach. I have never tried to "buy" her.
> We met in high school and started our marriage with nothing; built up by ourselves without any help form either sets of parents.
> 
> And now It really is me...I hate to see the "perfect" life that we have built be destroyed.
> 
> I have been always faithful even though I have had many opportunities to cheat, that is just not me but it is time to reconsider.
> 
> I think I have resigned myself to do the bare minimum for her, tell to get ass to work and continue to devote myself to my kids. And when they they fly the coop I will also  It's only a few more years.


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> 100% sure not cheating.
> 
> I try to come home for meals but the problem is that she doesn't tell me when dinner time actually is. When the girls have after school programs I understand that dinner time has to be shifted to accommodate their schedule but 4 nights a week she will have dinner at any time between 5-7 so I try my best. My office is 45 minutes from home and if she would just tell me when she will have dinner ready I would leave work accordingly so that I am there. When I call and ask about dinner she is usually very curt and simply says "when it's ready". What am I supposed do with that?


Ok, I think I'm starting to get it now.

"Wife, have the kids ready for dinner at five."

"Wife, I'm bringing home X and Y for dinner at six."

etc.


Reg said:


> Even now it's like pulling teeth to get her to go out for a dinner or even just sit on our deck. And when she does she has a sour look on her face the whole time, does not make for pleasant company.


Don't let her frown bring you down man even when you have to fake it until you make it.

Seriously, once I stopped letting her emotional state drag me down and I walked around with a smile on my face, my wife eventually came along for the ride. Give it a try.


Reg said:


> It is really sad to see her not enjoy life. But you can't force someone to be happy.


It's not your job to make her happy.


Reg said:


> I have offered to take her to trips to the Superbowl, mini cruises, island get aways all expense paid by my company...nothing. I come come with beautiful sports cars; she won't go for a ride.


Don't offer. Book it, tell her when to have her stuff packed and what to pack.

I'm serious about this.

If she decides not to come, fine.


Reg said:


> I get new cars for her every six months (I'm in the auto business), I come home excited to give her the latest new model; she will just take the keys without even going out to the driveway to see what it is.
> 
> I send flowers, buy jewellery, ask her to do nothing but just hang out with me...no matter what it is can't make her happy when it comes to me.


So stop doing that. It's not working.

Do what makes you happy and include her in on that.


----------



## barbados

OP,

A "perfect" life" isn't defined by material things. Your marriage is a sham at this point.

You refuse to answer anyone's questions on how you know she isn't cheating. The more you post, the more it sounds like she is a cheater like 100%

You are a BANK ACCOUNT to her, nothing more. You finance her lifestyle, and most likely her cheating.

I said this in my other post, and it bears repeating : You are miserable by choice at this point, because you refuse to change and divorce.

I sincerely hope this thread turns out to be fake because I would hate to thing there are doormats out there like OP.


----------



## jb02157

Broken at 20 said:


> .
> 
> Your wife sees you as an ATM, and a sperm donor. And that is being generous.


Yup that's exactly my wife....not so much the sperm donor though. I see myself as an ATM...that's it.


----------



## Reg

Ok, let me address the cheating.

yes, key blogger, cell & text records. She uses an iphone so it is easy to see full history. The phone is in my name so I see the detailed billing and usage online.

During the day I have staff that live nearby and I have them randomly pass by the house to see if she is at home. If she says that she went out shopping then I can see the credit card transactions and times.

Her time is accounted for. No secret calls, her phone is not tucked away, no sexy underwear; no suspicious behaviour at all.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Reg said:


> Ok, let me address the cheating.
> 
> yes, key blogger, cell & text records. *She uses an iphone so it is easy to see full history.* The phone is in my name so I see the detailed billing and usage online.
> 
> During the day I have staff that live nearby and I have them randomly pass by the house to see if she is at home. If she says that she went out shopping then I can see the credit card transactions and times.
> 
> Her time is accounted for. No secret calls, her phone is not tucked away, no sexy underwear; no suspicious behaviour at all.


This is why we wanted to know. There is a big, gaping hole in your investigation.

There are assloads of aps that can be downloaded that have messaging built in. Messages from these aps don't show up on bills or in Imessage backups or anything else iphone related, it's just bytes. The only way to detect them is to jailbreak the phone and install a keylogger.

Cheaters also commonly use burner phones, cheap prepaid phones that they use only for communicating with their affair partners. They're cheap, small and easily hidden. 

One WW on this site met her AP at the grocery store, drove him home in her car with him ducking down so he wouldn't be seen, and parked in the garage. When the door came down they went in and did the deed, when they were done she took him back to the grocery store. No telling how many times she did it that way.

There's a lot of experience catching cheaters on this site. You should take advantage of that experience, do a more thorough investigation and either bust her or rule it out. Right now you just have faith, and even the snake handling preachers get bit.


----------



## treyvion

jb02157 said:


> Yup that's exactly my wife....not so much the sperm donor though. I see myself as an ATM...that's it.


Don't see yourself as an ATM. See your self as a man who made a bad choice in a relation partner. Thats it.


----------



## Machiavelli

Reg said:


> Ok, let me address the cheating.
> 
> yes, key blogger, cell & text records. She uses an iphone so it is easy to see full history. The phone is in my name so I see the detailed billing and usage online.
> 
> During the day I have staff that live nearby and I have them randomly pass by the house to see if she is at home. If she says that she went out shopping then I can see the credit card transactions and times.
> 
> Her time is accounted for. No secret calls, her phone is not tucked away, no sexy underwear; no suspicious behaviour at all.


Half-assed methods provide half-assed intel. Get a real PI.


----------



## MrsDraper

Openminded said:


> You're right -- you are invisible to her. And she's fine with that. Not a good way to live, obviously, since life can be long and seem even longer in an unhappy marriage.
> 
> Don't think -- and she shouldn't either -- that children don't pick up on unhappy marriages. They are more perceptive than parents think.


One of my best friends from elementary school and I were inseparateable up until high school. Seriously - we told her MOM more times than I can remember to get a divorce, pronto! He had a job where he traveled so sometimes he was around and sometimes he wasn't. 

She was holding out until son #1 was out of the house (he would and did freak) and until she had hit the 10-15 mark in the marriage. I'm pretty sure he is paying her support even though all the girls are grown now.


----------



## tom67

MrsDraper said:


> One of my best friends from elementary school and I were inseparateable up until high school. Seriously - we told her MOM more times than I can remember to get a divorce, pronto! He had a job where he traveled so sometimes he was around and sometimes he wasn't.
> 
> She was holding out until son #1 was out of the house (he would and did freak) and until she had hit the 10-15 mark in the marriage. I'm pretty sure he is paying her support even though all the girls are grown now.


Reg don't be the person described above.
You will regret it.
Get informed on what you will likely have to pay now.
Knowledge is strength.


----------



## over20

tom67 said:


> Get the book "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" asap.
> You can't control her but you can control what you will or will not put up with.
> One year without sex is unacceptable in my opinion.
> Time to make some tough decisions.


Great post..

:iagree:


----------



## AliceA

Not sure why people seem to think that a woman must be getting sex from somewhere if she's not getting it from her husband. It sounds like male thinking to me. No, she may just not like her husband, she may just not enjoy spending time with him. It may be a personality thing. We only see what he's written here. Maybe if we were to live with him, we'd see something different to what he tells us.

The fact is she doesn't have to be having an affair to not want to be interested in her husband. It may be just that he's not interesting to her. We don't shrivel up and die without sex, we don't 'have to' have it. It's a recreational activity (unless doing it to procreate) people can genuinely live without, and some are happy to live without it. Hope I didn't ruin anyone's day there.

Edited to add: Note I don't condone her behaviour. I think she's a sh*t spouse and I'm glad I don't have one like that but I don't buy into a person placing all the blame for a crap relationship on the shoulders of one person. It takes two to make a crap relationship, just like it takes two to make a good one.


----------



## Nucking Futs

breeze said:


> Not sure why people seem to think that a woman must be getting sex from somewhere if she's not getting it from her husband. It sounds like male thinking to me. No, she may just not like her husband, she may just not enjoy spending time with him. It may be a personality thing. We only see what he's written here. Maybe if we were to live with him, we'd see something different to what he tells us.
> 
> The fact is she doesn't have to be having an affair to not want to be interested in her husband. It may be just that he's not interesting to her. We don't shrivel up and die without sex, we don't 'have to' have it. It's a recreational activity (unless doing it to procreate) people can genuinely live without, and some are happy to live without it. Hope I didn't ruin anyone's day there.
> 
> Edited to add: Note I don't condone her behaviour. I think she's a sh*t spouse and I'm glad I don't have one like that but I don't buy into a person placing all the blame for a crap relationship on the shoulders of one person. It takes two to make a crap relationship, just like it takes two to make a good one.


None of us know if she's having an affair or not. There are red flags but a proper investigation hasn't been done. The problem is that OP seems to want to save his marriage, and the advice he needs is different if she's cheating. We see the red flags and want to give the cheater advice but it could be the wrong advice for his situation if she's not. However, if we give advice assuming she's not cheating when she is it will not work and likely would be counter productive.


----------



## healingone

Im so sorry to be reading this... the pretending you may be cheating is is bit extreme, agreed. The take care of yourself and the kids, just like she is doing for you, is awesome. You already pay for the house, but she should be required to pay for anything she goes out and does for herself... no longer on your tab since she is not doing for you any kindness.

Sounds petty, but the dynamic in place now is unfair... only one of you changes and the dynamic changes.

Be prepared for backlash and her trying to state all that she does for you... do not engage in a battle of who does what... simply state that the things that you have been trying to tell her are important to you from her, have not been happening for x number of years, period. She in reality, has only been taking care of herself and the kids and so you are now going to do the same. She can a job to pay for her things or go without that manicure, gym membership haircut or whatever she does to take care of her self... new clothes, on her tab now!

Best of luck... it may end the marriage, or it may wake her up... from the sounds of it, there is no marriage anyway just a house for the kids that you pay for and she uses.


----------



## MEM2020

Breeze,
I read this and started laughing because I agree.

It strikes me as very unhelpful to focus so much effort on surveillance: key logger, phone bill review, employees driving by the house.

And absolutely no effort on the nuts and bolts of what is broken. All these lavish gifts, and yet not one direct face down over having dinner with his children. Forget the wife for a moment. 

It goes like this: 
Let's look at the children's activity schedule for the next two weeks. So there are 4 days a week they don't have activities. I will be home by 5:30 on those days. Please don't sit down to dinner before 5:30. 

Note how simple this is. If she's running a bit late, no issue. He's already home. 

BTW: I expect he will get push back even on this. She does not want to spend time with him. But this type conversation brings that to the fore. 





breeze said:


> Not sure why people seem to think that a woman must be getting sex from somewhere if she's not getting it from her husband. It sounds like male thinking to me. No, she may just not like her husband, she may just not enjoy spending time with him. It may be a personality thing. We only see what he's written here. Maybe if we were to live with him, we'd see something different to what he tells us.
> 
> The fact is she doesn't have to be having an affair to not want to be interested in her husband. It may be just that he's not interesting to her. We don't shrivel up and die without sex, we don't 'have to' have it. It's a recreational activity (unless doing it to procreate) people can genuinely live without, and some are happy to live without it. Hope I didn't ruin anyone's day there.
> 
> Edited to add: Note I don't condone her behaviour. I think she's a sh*t spouse and I'm glad I don't have one like that but I don't buy into a person placing all the blame for a crap relationship on the shoulders of one person. It takes two to make a crap relationship, just like it takes two to make a good one.


----------



## sammy3

I can name 5 long term marriages right off the top of my head that each spouse view the marriage completely different. 

Since my h affair, he has let me in on a lot of his male friends view of their marriages. I have done the same of the wives. Because many of these men are also my friend, I have been able to speak w them at length about my h affair and them covering for him. They have also shared with me their male view of affairs, and about an industry that affairs are very common in, but that I was so trusting in. 

I am simply amazed, how many people in LTM really rather go it their own way as long as there is the support each needs from each other. I am also amazed how many people are living a marriage they have no idea about. I am also amazed they are living a marriage so unconnected with each other but pretend they are very connected. 

But what is truly amazing, it's when a marriage or a couple is questioning their relationship, that it starts to come alive.


-sammy


----------



## Reg

I may miss eating dinner with kids because I can't get a straight answer as to when it will be ready; keep in mind that I am working so I can't simply leave my job only to go home and wait two hours for dinner to be ready. And I'm not saying that I want to time it so that I walk in the door as dinner is being served, the kids do their homework after school so I am not missing out on any time with them.

But I do spend all my time after dinner with the girls doing whatever they want up until bed time. 

On the weekends I'm the first one up with the girls and again, spend all my time with them.

I feel like crap when I walk into the house and see that they have already eaten and that all I have is some cold food in pot for me (or nothing at all).


----------



## Happilymarried25

That's so strange that your wife doesn't let you know what time dinner will be served. It's almost like she purposely doesn't tell you the time so she won't have to eat dinner with you. So sad because eating together as a family is so important. I know you are putting up with how your wife treats you because of your children.


----------



## happy as a clam

Reg,

You have gotten excellent advice in this thread. Everyone is basically telling you the same thing -- pull the plug on this.

So, WHEN are you going to do SOMETHING that will make her realize you are serious and you are NOT spending the rest of your life like an invisible, celibate monk?

You've given her books, you've given her the name of a therapist, you've been an excellent husband and father, provided her with a wonderful lifestyle -- when are you going to do something for YOU?

Get a lawyer, file for divorce. That will really shake up her world and you JUST MIGHT see her turn over a new leaf. And if not, you'll be well on your way to ending this fiasco.

No one says you actually have to go through with the divorce, but it will d*mn sure let her know how serious you are. Quit being her doormat.


----------



## Q tip

Take a manly leadership role in the family. Start dating that woman. Get a sitter, hire a house cleaner/maid. Grab her, take her shopping for a nice set of clothes and get your a$$es to Tahiti. 

Put some top-spin in the relationship. Workout, get in real shape. Read up on MMSLP. You lead, she'll follow. Give her something to follow. 

Have fun, get creative. Give her a massage when you get home. She works twice as hard as you. Cherish that woman. Every day. Don't let a day go by that you don't cherish her in every way possible


----------



## MEM2020

Reg,
That is a helpful clarification. 

What are you going to do to begin asserting yourself in your marriage? 

Most of the guys here are pro marriage and seriously committed to their wives. Me included. 

That said, if my W was refusing to:
- Stick with a set dinner hour or give me a (30 minute or so) heads up on when it would be ready. 
AND
- Wasn't consistently ensuring that there were sufficient leftovers for me if I was delayed.

I would start with a couple simple questions:
- It seems that you prefer to eat dinner without me. Why is that?
- In general you don't seem to enjoy my company. In fact, it feels like you are avoiding spending time with me. Why is that?
- Do you realize how disrespectful it is to not ensure that there are sufficient leftovers for me to have a full meal when I have to work late? 

Depending on her answers, I would likely give her a choice of appointments:
- MC 
- Divorce lawyer




QUOTE=Reg;9363162]I may miss eating dinner with kids because I can't get a straight answer as to when it will be ready; keep in mind that I am working so I can't simply leave my job only to go home and wait two hours for dinner to be ready. And I'm not saying that I want to time it so that I walk in the door as dinner is being served, the kids do their homework after school so I am not missing out on any time with them.

But I do spend all my time after dinner with the girls doing whatever they want up until bed time. 

On the weekends I'm the first one up with the girls and again, spend all my time with them.

I feel like crap when I walk into the house and see that they have already eaten and that all I have is some cold food in pot for me (or nothing at all).[/QUOTE]


----------



## Reg

So the plan is to take her to dinner and then spend a night at a hotel this Saturday. She will know exactly what the plan is...cause I will tell her:

1. We are leaving the kids with the grandparents (already arranged).
2. You will wear a sexy outfit
3. You will bring you nicest lingerie
4. We will have a good time

I am hopeful that we can have one good night of intimacy and relight the spark.

If I get any flack on this it will be plan B:

1. Sit down; we are getting a divorce. I'm sorry

Put a lot of thought into this; it's time. 

Thank you for all the advice.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You should really make plan B your plan A. Then when you tell her you want a divorce you can gauge her reaction....and if she wants to avoid it then give her plan A as a condition to stay.


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## tom67

Reg we all hope the best for you give it one last shot.
Prepare for the worst separate finances set up acct. for yourself get a voice activated recorder so she doesn't claim you beat her up.
The way you describe she is acting I wouldn't put anything past her.
I hope I am wrong.


----------



## indiecat

Good for you for making the weekend plans. Try to have fun and give it a chance. 

On the way home or before have a heart to heart conversation about what you need as a man.


----------



## treyvion

tom67 said:


> Reg we all hope the best for you give it one last shot.
> Prepare for the worst separate finances set up acct. for yourself get a voice activated recorder so she doesn't claim you beat her up.
> The way you describe she is acting I wouldn't put anything past her.
> I hope I am wrong.


Yo Reg! Prepare for the BEST. If wifey is not willing to work with you, you will have your life back.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Plenty of good advice here. Im going to throw mine in the pot.

"Im filing for divorce."

If she acts with total indifference, proceed to file and move on with your life.

If she responds by trying to change your mind, clearly lay out your issues like this:

"I have worked hard for you, myself and our girls. I have been loyal, and I care. In return you dont talk with me, you dont touch me, you dont fulfill me sexually, and for all my efforts you dont even do me the courtesy of a family dinner. 

I will not allow myself to become anyone's doormat. My daughters need to see both myself and you happy to grow into healthy adults. Im filing."

And file anyway. If she keeps persisting and begs and pleads and prays for a second chance, you inform her she will be given one (let her wonder for a few months) and only one. After that, its permanent. 

You should not be pursuing her- not only is it not right considering how she's treating you, but it wont work. She must pursue you now. 

A woman must FEEL if she is to be happy with a man. You must draw boundaries that demand respect and enforce them. Start by showing her that your testicles are hanging low and not scared of a new start.

**EDIT** A woman respects a man who can step on to a new path without reservation because it shows that he has a certain mastery over his environment. He will not let the world break him, and he WILL succeed in his life. This implicit demonstration of bravado is intoxicating to a woman; bravado is the implicit indication of capacity to effect positive change in one's environment.

A woman is not attracted to the $$$ a man brings home- she is attracted to what power he wields, which is often accompanied by $$$. You must demonstrate your power- the power to walk, the power to hold your head high without her if necessary, the power to find another woman, the power to demonstrate the world will not stop you from being a good father and a happy man...


----------



## AliceA

Reg said:


> I may miss eating dinner with kids because I can't get a straight answer as to when it will be ready; keep in mind that I am working so I can't simply leave my job only to go home and wait two hours for dinner to be ready. And I'm not saying that I want to time it so that I walk in the door as dinner is being served, the kids do their homework after school so I am not missing out on any time with them.
> 
> But I do spend all my time after dinner with the girls doing whatever they want up until bed time.
> 
> On the weekends I'm the first one up with the girls and again, spend all my time with them.
> 
> I feel like crap when I walk into the house and see that they have already eaten and that all I have is some cold food in pot for me (or nothing at all).


I'm so busy during the day that while it would be nice to have a set time for dinner, I would struggle to make this happen, otherwise I'd pipe in and suggest you ask your wife if you could both agree on a set time. DH often comes home to his dinner sitting in the warming oven, and the rest of us have already eaten. He's never mentioned having a problem with this. I think if he were to regularly come home at a set time, this wouldn't happen, or would only happen rarely.

Maybe instead of putting all this on her, it's time for you to start gearing back at work, and coming home at a set time each day. You say you are successful. Well, with success should come some ability to step back a little. If you have the staff and the business running smoothly, you should be able to achieve this small thing, for the sake of trying to save your marriage. It may or may not help, but you'll never know if you don't try.

Edited to add: Calling everyday for a time for dinner so you can be home for it? Why not just get home at 5:45pm everyday regardless? Thinking that time you come home prior to dinner is wasted when you could've been at work? This sort of thinking sounds pretty crappy to me. I would seriously not appreciate my DH having this sort of attitude. Why not come home and help with dinner if it isn't done yet?


----------



## Anomnom

Reg said:


> So the plan is to take her to dinner and then spend a night at a hotel this Saturday. She will know exactly what the plan is...cause I will tell her:
> 
> 1. We are leaving the kids with the grandparents (already arranged).
> 2. You will wear a sexy outfit
> 3. You will bring you nicest lingerie
> 4. We will have a good time
> 
> I am hopeful that we can have one good night of intimacy and relight the spark.


I highly advise you don't *tell* her to wear nice lingerie or a sexy outfit. Perhaps *suggest* that as you are going out to dinner that she wear something nice. She doesn't like you. If you tell her 2 and 3, she will likely get defensive and tell you to f off.


----------



## AliceA

Anomnom said:


> I highly advise you don't *tell* her to wear nice lingerie or a sexy outfit. Perhaps *suggest* that as you are going out to dinner that she wear something nice. She doesn't like you. If you tell her 2 and 3, she will likely get defensive and tell you to f off.


:iagree:

I love my DH, but if he were to talk to me that way, I'd either laugh at him or tell him to take a flying leap, depending on how serious he was. Actually, he does try to order me about. He gets a kick out of me giving him sass. Sometimes I like to shock him out of his comfort zone by actually doing what he asked. Something tells me you don't have this sort of relationship with your wife. Might want to tread a little more carefully, lol.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Anomnom said:


> I highly advise you don't *tell* her to wear nice lingerie or a sexy outfit. Perhaps *suggest* that as you are going out to dinner that she wear something nice. She doesn't like you. If you tell her 2 and 3, she will likely get defensive and tell you to f off.


I agree with this! I have a feeling that she will refuse to go anyway, because like Anomnom states, she doesnt like you. I do wish you luck, though.


----------



## jb02157

treyvion said:


> Don't see yourself as an ATM. See your self as a man who made a bad choice in a relation partner. Thats it.


That is indeed true, but one was the result of the other.


----------



## endlessgrief

I am living in the same situation. Zero intimacy, affection, conversation, or sex. Four years now. He's a depressed drunk so that takes up all his time and thoughts. I just kinda live here. Sometimes we bump into each other in the hallway on the way to the bathroom and it's strange and uncomfortable.

No matter his reasoning, the fact remains that I have been hurt beyond recognition by his neglect, drinking, and bad behavior. I truly believe we cannot go back. Plus, why would I want to make love to someone who had killed my love for him? I don't do pity screws.


----------



## john117

That's what the non desiring spouses don't get. 

And that's what destroys the relationship at the end.


----------



## Lyris

She doesn't like him, let alone love him. She's told him in every way possible for ten years.

I don't think a night away is going to help somehow.


----------



## Sunburn

People tend to marry their normal. Maybe his parents treated him the same way. Oh it may not be overt in the beginning but we are conditioned to sense the subtleties.


----------



## FizzBomb

She doesn't want to talk to him, look at him, be in the same room as him - I doubt that a sexy night away is gonna thrill her panties off her.

I would have thought the first port of call would be

1. get kids to grandparents
2. talk to wife
3. talk to wife, and
4. talk to wife.

If my husband didn't want to talk to me let alone be in the same room as me I would be wanting some straight answers not a sexy night away. OP, I don't know how you even feel remotely sexually attracted to someone that treats you in this manner.

Good luck with your plan. I do hope you don't get hurt by her response.


----------



## richie33

No matter what she says can't be worse than being treated the way you have for years. How you haven't strayed is a miracle.


----------



## Psych

Is this a troll post? Almost feels unbelievable. 

With respect to the initial poster.... Please have more self respect. From what you've written, it seems like you deserve so much more than what you're getting. 

Life is too short to be this miserable. I hope your situation works out with either an honest dialogue with your wife or a trip to a lawyer. I wouldn't wish this treatment your wife is giving you on my worst enemy.


----------



## barbados

Psych said:


> Is this a troll post? Almost feels unbelievable.
> 
> With respect to the initial poster.... Please have more self respect. From what you've written, it seems like you deserve so much more than what you're getting.
> 
> Life is too short to be this miserable. I hope your situation works out with either an honest dialogue with your wife or a trip to a lawyer. I wouldn't wish this treatment your wife is giving you on my worst enemy.


:iagree:

I said this in my last post : 

" I sincerely hope this thread turns out to be fake because I would hate to thing there are doormats out there like OP. "


----------



## wanttolove

Tons of replies here and varying advice. Your story has a lot of similarity to mine except I don't work as much as you do -- and it's been ten years since we last had sex. At the moment, I am so 'anxious' that I am about to go through the roof. Like you, one of my barriers to separation or divorce is kids, as well as the respect I have for her 93 year old father. Our daughter goes to college in August, son will be a sophomore in high school. I am contemplating moving out within the next few months simply so I can do the dishonorable thing (yes, date and find someone who will give me affection).


----------



## sunray

Reg said:


> So the plan is to take her to dinner and then spend a night at a hotel this Saturday. She will know exactly what the plan is...cause I will tell her:
> 
> 1. We are leaving the kids with the grandparents (already arranged).
> 2. You will wear a sexy outfit
> 3. You will bring you nicest lingerie
> 4. We will have a good time
> 
> I am hopeful that we can have one good night of intimacy and relight the spark.
> 
> If I get any flack on this it will be plan B:
> 
> 1. Sit down; we are getting a divorce. I'm sorry
> 
> Put a lot of thought into this; it's time.
> 
> Thank you for all the advice.


Plan "A" is a terrible plan. You already said she doesn't like you, if plan A were to happen it would be fake. Is that what you want???

I would go directly with plan "B". However, I would have the divorce paperwork written from an attorney in hand. If she protests have paperwork for marriage counseling/ individual therapy in the other hand and explain the only way to slow down the divorce proceedings is if she does this. It's possible she won't believe you. My husband didn't think I'd leave until I did. Sometimes people need something with shock value to start changing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You could do the 180 but would she even notice?

Just divorce.

But in this divorce you are probably going to be a doormat.


----------



## mr hillbilly

Any update?


----------



## SevenYears

Just went through the thread. You've said she's definitely not cheating so I'll assume that's true. 

People are saying maybe she's not in love with you any more. But it actually looks like she doesn't even like you. You see some threads where the love has gone and they see their spouse as only a friend. Yours doesn't. She can't even be polite to you it seems.

So I think this may be a lost cause. I wouldn't threaten divorce. I would just file. If you threaten she may have sex with you again or go out on dates. But if she's not enjoying it and see's it as a chore what's the point.

I think you'll both be happier if you separate. 

I know you've mentioned that you do lots for her emotionally and financially but if she's not attracted to you anymore then it won't matter. 

On the other hand after you both have been separated for a while she may realise she does love you and want you back.


----------



## bluefly

Although this is a late response, after recently seeing this thread in my email, I just felt so compelled to register and respond so here I go...  

After reading what you've been going through, it sounds a lot like your wife doesn't have much to look forward to. She spends a lot of time to herself while the kids are in school and I'm sure her mind wanders... Does she interact much with the kids? If she's not affectionate towards you, is she at least showing affection towards them? I'm getting this impression that your wife has lost her nurturing ways? Or maybe she was just never the affectionate type to begin with and it was always you pointing those things out to her? Things like not giving you eye contact when you're talking to her or her walking out on you when you are trying to bring up something that bothers you that she does? Does she get defensive? 

It's quite strange for her to not give you the time or day when you do so much to take care of your wife and kids. Things just don't seem as passionate as they were before and it sounds like that spark is gone. You often show her how much you love her, but you're left with leftovers? Does your wife spend most of her time to herself or does she have girlfriends that she hangs out with? Is she always home or does she actually go out and do things for herself? 

I honestly feel that your wife is either bored and is craving some passionate sex from God knows who (hopefully from you the hubby!) or from someone she met from some social network! She's used to living the lifestyle you've provided so if you were to take that away or threaten to take that away, she's then pressured to have sex with you just so that you don't leave her. If she begs for you to not leave her, I'd say that would be a red flag indicator that perhaps someone else is or was involved (hopefully it's just a romantic book fantasy).

How have things been since you posted your concern? Any changes? I read that you've seen a marriage counselor, but you only went alone and not with your wife? I'm interested in any updates you might have... Please share!:scratchhead:


----------



## ElCanario

I would suggest divorce - yesterday - but the man, especially if he's the breadwinner - will get all kinds of screwed. This is a case where I think he should have an affair. She probably wouldn't even care, and if she finds out and wants to get divorced, the outcome will be no different.


----------



## CaughtWithSoftPorn

Been more than a month since Reg was here... Did she kill him? or did he kill her?


----------



## Reg

Sorry for the absence but here is an update; unfortunately not a good one.

Nothing has changed with my wife, I still try and take her out for dates, a walk or coffee but she is always too busy! a sahm that can't find 20 minutes to go for a walk!! 

No sex since last June, I have tried several times, always a no. she has only touched me once since last june (on the shoulder for a second-wow!). No kisses at all.

Yup, I am treating her nicely and try and keep a smile on my face but inside I am dying. She could care less.

Professionally had a great but very stressful year; shared some of my troubles with her and she offers zero words or actions for comfort. I am treated exactly as a slave, I'm invisible other than the fat pay checks that come every two weeks

Still spend a lot of time with the kids, always taking them places and doing fun things, wife included.

I still eat most of my meals alone, she will never wait with the kids to eat with me. I have an hour drive to get home and traffic can be bad...she's not waiting.

So what have I done?? I started dating on a casual basis! I just miss having a woman to talk to, to eat with, to have a drink with...I haven't slept with any of them but do have a little fun  Man, women today are aggressive. I stopped wearing my wedding ring and bam! it's like fishing in a barrel. And you know what? I have zero guilt!

I don't want a divorce because I love being with my kids but with my eldest going away to college this coming school year I am absolutely reconsidering it


----------



## Marduk

Does she know you're dating?


----------



## Reg

No. She has no clue. I am discreet and only date during "working" hours or on my day off (friday). She runs out the door on fridays anyway until the kids come home.


----------



## LongWalk

You should divorce.

Tell your wife you cannot go on in a loveless marriage.

Tell her you have cheated and apologize.


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> No. She has no clue. I am discreet and only date during "working" hours or on my day off (friday). She runs out the door on fridays anyway until the kids come home.


Come clean, cut the ties, and leave her as best you can, then.

Because, no matter what she did to you, nobody deserves that.

And you don't deserve becoming that guy.


----------



## EllisRedding

marduk said:


> Come clean, cut the ties, and leave her as best you can, then.
> 
> Because, no matter what she did to you, nobody deserves that.
> 
> And you don't deserve becoming that guy.


Completely agree with Keanu  Be the bigger person. If you believe she has never cheated on you what makes it ok for you to cheat on her? Take the higher ground, serve her with divorce papers, and start living your life.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Wow, way to sink to the lowest of the low. Divorce her, already....


----------



## cons

Ouch....you had the opporunity to handle this marriage and it's issues with integrity (even if the marriage ends)...but now?!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Even aside from the cheating, you are STILL doing everything wrong...you dont keep being nice and kissing her ass if you want the dynamics to change.


----------



## wanttolove

I can understand a little why you are dating or at least why you want to, but be honest and admit that it's not just the attention that you want. Once you cross the line, you are likely going to be in hot water and into something you are going to find out you really don't want. 

Stop. If you want to change your life and have a chance to find a relationship that has a chance to be satisfying and real, then divorce then date. Anyone who will cheat with you is likely experiencing emotional problems you don't want to deal with. They are also not likely to be long term material.

I have a lot of experience with what you are going through, even am at the same stage of life, including having a daughter who is a new college student. I know what you are going through. Find someone you can talk to who is not the opposite sex. Listen to them.

Respect yourself and do the right thing. The reactions you are getting here ought to tell you that you are NOT doing the right thing.


----------



## anchorwatch

Reg, 

What's the problem? 

Tell her you're dating!

Obviously she'll either be relieved you stopped pressuring her or she could care less.

What are you afraid of? 

Her?


----------



## anchorwatch

marduk said:


> Come clean, cut the ties, and leave her as best you can, then.
> 
> Because, no matter what she did to you, nobody deserves that.
> 
> And you don't deserve becoming that guy.



He wants to be that guy.


----------



## Reg

Yeah...I get it. Probably not doing the right thing so I am planning on having a talk with her on Friday and let just tell her that I am dating.

She doesn't want a divorce but she wants the "perfect family" image and the nice lifestyle that she is used to without having to be a wife to me.

I am absolutely ready to take the hit financially if she says divorce. I will get killed but so what!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Yeah...I get it. Probably not doing the right thing so I am planning on having a talk with her on Friday and let just tell her that I am dating.
> 
> She doesn't want a divorce but she wants the "perfect family" image and the nice lifestyle that she is used to without having to be a wife to me.
> 
> I am absolutely ready to take the hit financially if she says divorce. I will get killed but so what!


PROBABLY?? There is no PROBABLY to this, you are NOT doing the right thing. So wait a minute...you are OK if SHE wants to divorce, but you cant be man enough to do it yourself instead of cheating?? :scratchhead: Wow.....


----------



## anchorwatch

Reg said:


> Yeah...I get it. Probably not doing the right thing so I am planning on having a talk with her on Friday and let just tell her that I am dating.
> 
> She doesn't want a divorce but she wants the "perfect family" image and the nice lifestyle that she is used to without having to be a wife to me.
> 
> I am absolutely ready to take the hit financially if she says divorce. I will get killed but so what!


Reg,

Once you realize that you've been a victim, if you continue to let it happen, you become a volunteer.

Good decision. 

Follow through.


----------



## Reg

Not to defend my "cheating" but for all that haven't read from the beginning...for the past few years I have become invisible to my wife, sex once a year (if I force the issue), I try everyday to be nice and romantic, I buy her gifts, ask her to go on date nights/walks/coffee/mini trips but she is always too busy. I cook, go grocery shopping and help clean the house. She doesn't come to bed most nights, she sleeps on the couch or on the floor in the play room! She does not EVER kiss me, hug me or EVEN TOUCH ME-I'm not a leper!!

I spend time with my girls. 

I also pay bills for her parents and obviously for everything in our house. I provide very, very well for my family and in-laws, I don't feel used, it's just the way I am.

I have stayed in great shape and I dress well-I have not let myself go in any way. She is still in great physical shape and very beautiful but has gone from wearing fashionable, attractive clothing with sexy underwear to dressing like a grandma.

I have offered to go to marriage counselling with her, she has avoided it. I have bought books for her to read on how to make a marriage work, I don't think that she has ever read them. I have gone to two different counsellors and both have told me that my marriage is over.

I'm not a saint but for the life of me I can't figure out what I have done wrong, even her friends comment that they wish their husbands would do half of what I do for her and the family.

Not a victim or a saint, just a guy who loved his wife and his girls and tried everything to make it work-I'm human


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Not to defend my "cheating" but for all that haven't read from the beginning...for the past few years I have become invisible to my wife, sex once a year (if I force the issue), I try everyday to be nice and romantic, I buy her gifts, ask her to go on date nights/walks/coffee/mini trips but she is always too busy. I cook, go grocery shopping and help clean the house. She doesn't come to bed most nights, she sleeps on the couch or on the floor in the play room! She does not EVER kiss me, hug me or EVEN TOUCH ME-I'm not a leper!!
> 
> I spend time with my girls.
> 
> I also pay bills for her parents and obviously for everything in our house. I provide very, very well for my family and in-laws, I don't feel used, it's just the way I am.
> 
> I have stayed in great shape and I dress well-I have not let myself go in any way. She is still in great physical shape and very beautiful but has gone from wearing fashionable, attractive clothing with sexy underwear to dressing like a grandma.
> 
> I have offered to go to marriage counselling with her, she has avoided it. I have bought books for her to read on how to make a marriage work, I don't think that she has ever read them. I have gone to two different counsellors and both have told me that my marriage is over.
> 
> I'm not a saint but for the life of me I can't figure out what I have done wrong, even her friends comment that they wish their husbands would do half of what I do for her and the family.
> 
> Not a victim or a saint, just a guy who loved his wife and his girls and tried everything to make it work-I'm human


None of this has a damn thing to do with you making the conscious decision to go out and cheat. Now, all of this DOES give you reason to DIVORCE. What you did WRONG was to keep kissing her ass while she continually treats you like garbage. Your rewarded her for being sh!tty to you, and you CONTINUE to reward her for that. This woman does not respect you and does not love you. So love and respect yourself....stop the ridiculous cheating and GET A DIVORCE.


----------



## tech-novelist

Reg said:


> Not to defend my "cheating" but for all that haven't read from the beginning...for the past few years I have become invisible to my wife, sex once a year (if I force the issue), I try everyday to be nice and romantic, I buy her gifts, ask her to go on date nights/walks/coffee/mini trips but she is always too busy. I cook, go grocery shopping and help clean the house. She doesn't come to bed most nights, she sleeps on the couch or on the floor in the play room! She does not EVER kiss me, hug me or EVEN TOUCH ME-I'm not a leper!!
> 
> I spend time with my girls.
> 
> I also pay bills for her parents and obviously for everything in our house. I provide very, very well for my family and in-laws, I don't feel used, it's just the way I am.
> 
> I have stayed in great shape and I dress well-I have not let myself go in any way. She is still in great physical shape and very beautiful but has gone from wearing fashionable, attractive clothing with sexy underwear to dressing like a grandma.
> 
> I have offered to go to marriage counselling with her, she has avoided it. I have bought books for her to read on how to make a marriage work, I don't think that she has ever read them. I have gone to two different counsellors and both have told me that my marriage is over.
> 
> I'm not a saint but for the life of me I can't figure out what I have done wrong, even her friends comment that they wish their husbands would do half of what I do for her and the family.
> 
> Not a victim or a saint, just a guy who loved his wife and his girls and tried everything to make it work-I'm human


What you have been doing wrong is what you think you have been doing right, that is, catering to her every need or want without any requirement for her to do the same for you.

Stop being a doormat. Stop doing things for her. She won't respect you until you stop, and maybe not even then, but it's the only hope you have.

Women may say they want romance, flowers, etc., and they do, but *only* from a man they respect. When you do it, it just repulses her more.


----------



## anchorwatch

Reg said:


> Not a victim or a saint, just a guy who loved his wife and his girls and tried everything to make it work-I'm human


Can't fault a man who's willing to try. Yet there has to be a point where you recognize what you're doing isn't working. You may not have seen it clearly for what it is. To us, mucking up the situation further by dating others, is a sure sign that you are not there. 

It's marriage, not marriage at all costs.

Best


----------



## Marduk

Reg said:


> Not to defend my "cheating" but for all that haven't read from the beginning...for the past few years I have become invisible to my wife, sex once a year (if I force the issue), I try everyday to be nice and romantic, I buy her gifts, ask her to go on date nights/walks/coffee/mini trips but she is always too busy. I cook, go grocery shopping and help clean the house. She doesn't come to bed most nights, she sleeps on the couch or on the floor in the play room! She does not EVER kiss me, hug me or EVEN TOUCH ME-I'm not a leper!!


So what you're saying is you became the red carpet, rolled it out for her, and are surprised that she walks all over it?


> I spend time with my girls.
> 
> I also pay bills for her parents and obviously for everything in our house. I provide very, very well for my family and in-laws, I don't feel used, it's just the way I am.


You're a martyr.

The problem with martyrs is that they want everyone to feel sorry for them so that they do what they want.

Passive-aggressive.


> I have stayed in great shape and I dress well-I have not let myself go in any way. She is still in great physical shape and very beautiful but has gone from wearing fashionable, attractive clothing with sexy underwear to dressing like a grandma.


So, if you would have sacked up and said "Wife, if you don't start doing X and Y with me Z times a week, your choice is a divorce or that I outsource X and Y to someone else with your blessing?"

Where would you be then?


> I have offered to go to marriage counselling with her, she has avoided it. I have bought books for her to read on how to make a marriage work, I don't think that she has ever read them. I have gone to two different counsellors and both have told me that my marriage is over.
> 
> I'm not a saint but for the life of me I can't figure out what I have done wrong, even her friends comment that they wish their husbands would do half of what I do for her and the family.
> 
> Not a victim or a saint, just a guy who loved his wife and his girls and tried everything to make it work-I'm human


You haven't tried everything.

Listen, I'm sure you're a great guy. A great self-described NICE guy that is actually an jerk under the nice guy skin. What you have to become is a GOOD guy.

And a good guy is honest with his wife, even if it means ending the marriage.


----------



## Wiredtired

Just out of curiosity, do you know what her Briggs-Myers personality type is? Just want to know what we're dealing with here.


----------



## jld

technovelist said:


> Women may say they want romance, flowers, etc., and they do, but *only* from a man they respect. When you do it, it just repulses her more.


Could not agree more.


----------



## john117

But they accept it nonetheless - they just don't reciprocate in the desired ways.

Sooo...


----------



## jld

"Sooo . . . " What?

Good luck with your talk today, Reg. Let us know how it goes. Remember, honest and open.


----------



## john117

I find it curious that the wives who are not into their husband intimately still get to enjoy the fruits of their husbands attention vis a vis material stuff...

Society would have us believe that it's the husbands fault for being a doormat without looking at the person who allegedly does the walking on said doormat.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I find it curious that the wives who are not into their husband intimately still get to enjoy the fruits of their husbands attention vis a vis material stuff...
> 
> Society would have us believe that it's the husbands fault for being a doormat without looking at the person who allegedly does the walking on said doormat.


I don't think he's being a doormat. She might feel like he has used her in some way. I think women often feel like that.

Unless he invites his wife to come here, we don't really know what she thinks.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> I find it curious that the wives who are not into their husband intimately still get to enjoy the fruits of their husbands attention vis a vis material stuff...
> 
> Society would have us believe that it's the husbands fault for being a doormat without looking at the person who allegedly does the walking on said doormat.


Actually, after talking to several women about this, my wife included...

Often, they are extremely uncomfortable with it.

Because it's a no-win scenario for them.

Let's say donny the doormat comes home with flowers and a shiny thing for his wife... who's not turned on by him.

If she doesn't accept it, she's being a *****, because only a ***** doesn't accept gifts.

If she does accept it, she's being a *****, because she knows it's a covert contract to have sex with him.

The only way to win is to not play that game, at least long enough that you can change the rules.


----------



## john117

Uncomfortable... Riiiiight 

They still do t. But sex if they're "uncomfortable"??? Lolz no.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Uncomfortable... Riiiiight
> 
> They still do t. But sex if they're "uncomfortable"??? Lolz no.


Right.

So her decision tree is:

A. Have sex with someone they're turned off by
A1. Making her resent you more which reinforces why she doesn't like to have sex with you
A2. Adding another covert contract into the mix (meaning she now expects something from you in return)
A3. You get starfish sex which is almost worse than no sex

B. Saying no to sex
B1. Making you resent her more
B2. Making her feel guilty for it
B3. Which leads to her rationalizing why she doesn't like having sex with you, which leads to reinforcement of not liking sex with you


You're a logical guy, John.


----------



## john117

I am logical (*) So far so good. Now add to the tree the nodes related to whether she should TAKE what the guy offers. The good life, etcetera. 

You'll find what I stated earlier holds. That for her, it's a no-lose proposition for him, it's a no-win proposition. 

Yet he's labeled a doormat if he goes along and an ahole if he doesn't, while only nice words are used to describe her regardless because she can get away with it quietly...

Based on what we see on TAM it's 100% doormat for him and 100% take for her.

(* former TA for junior year Decision Analysis class :rofl: )


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> I am logical (*) So far so good. Now add to the tree the nodes related to whether she should TAKE what the guy offers. The good life, etcetera.
> 
> You'll find what I stated earlier holds. That for her, it's a no-lose proposition for him, it's a no-win proposition.
> 
> Yet he's labeled a doormat if he goes along and an ahole if he doesn't, while only nice words are used to describe her regardless.
> 
> Based on what we see on TAM it's 100% doormat for him and 100% take for her.
> 
> (* former TA for junior year Decision Analysis class :rofl: )


The point is that the game is lose-lose unless you change the rules.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> The point is that the game is lose-lose unless you change the rules.



It's not lose for the one withholding and you can't change the rules unless you split...


----------



## john117

At the level of marital breakdown we are talking about, at least.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Haven't read through all the posts, so this certainly could have been said already but here goes:

Does you wife want a nice house, a new car, flowers, gifts, etc. or does she want a husband who loves her and has time for her?

The posts I did read talk about the OP coming home from work at 10 pm, working out 5 to 6 times a week, and spending all his free time with his girls. Where is the marriage? Where is the time spent with the wife to keep the love alive? I suspect that you are indeed doing the wrong things, but you aren't a doormat. You are just assuming that you being a good provider and such is what is required to keep love alive. You have a covert contract as per NMMNG that you need to undo! Once you do that, you need to discover what she does want. Let's hope it's not too late.

And as for eating meals alone and sitting on the other end of the sofa, I think she's telling you that you have left her alone for so long that you don't just get to walk in and have her attention on your time. You abandoned her by putting everyone else first. She get the scraps of your time and you expect her to just leap into your arms with joy? Ain't gonna happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> It's not lose for the one withholding and you can't change the rules unless you split...


It actually is, John. 

They may see it or not, but it is. 

Besides, I meant lose lose for you if that's the game you're playing.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

So... did he ever say why he doesn't divorce? Maybe I missed it. It's Friday. I don't Friday. I don't Monday either... but we'll save that for another day.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So... did he ever say why he doesn't divorce? Maybe I missed it. It's Friday. I don't Friday. I don't Monday either... but we'll save that for another day.


Because he is weak.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> It actually is, John.
> 
> 
> 
> They may see it or not, but it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, I meant lose lose for you if that's the game you're playing.



Of course they lose - they just don't know it. Call it a tactical win and a strategic loss.

And it's not games we are playing - it's numbers. I did some quick calculations as I'm at home recovering  and figured out that our net worth is in the order of $2M. If you're willing to sacrifice near half of it to "stick to your guns" then there's no game to play.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Of course they lose - they just don't know it. Call it a tactical win and a strategic loss.
> 
> And it's not games we are playing - it's numbers. I did some quick calculations as I'm at home recovering  and figured out that our net worth is in the order of $2M. If you're willing to sacrifice near half of it to "stick to your guns" then there's no game to play.


Think less monopoly rules and more kobyashi maru.


----------



## john117

As a Trekkie I appreciate the reference but it's not quite this simple. 

You can't reprogram the simulator because you don't control it. 

You can't redefine success or failure because they're predefined and rather binary in nature. 

But...

My decades of experience dealing with the human mind and reading lots of literature on the subject suggest physical intimacy is a rather complex set of stimuli and responses running in both the low level (reptilian) and higher level (mammalian and neocortex) parts of the brain. 

This is key because if the partner is not responding the way you want, it may be that at the lower levels that's all the desire she can muster. Not something you can easily talk your way in if the other party is not inclined - not repeatedly at least. 

You might talk the prom queen into some serious petting during recess or some ONS person in a bar, but these are not representative of marital reality, and certainly not after years or decades of marriage. 

Dr. Schnarch explains the reptilian / mammalian issue quite well here...

https://books.google.com/books?id=15VZxliCJEoC&printsec=frontcover


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> As a Trekkie I appreciate the reference but it's not quite this simple.
> 
> You can't reprogram the simulator because you don't control it.
> 
> You can't redefine success or failure because they're predefined and rather binary in nature.
> 
> But...
> 
> My decades of experience dealing with the human mind and reading lots of literature on the subject suggest physical intimacy is a rather complex set of stimuli and responses running in both the low level (reptilian) and higher level (mammalian and neocortex) parts of the brain.
> 
> This is key because if the partner is not responding the way you want, it may be that at the lower levels that's all the desire she can muster. Not something you can easily talk your way in if the other party is not inclined - not repeatedly at least.
> 
> You might talk the prom queen into some serious petting during recess or some ONS person in a bar, but these are not representative of marital reality, and certainly not after years or decades of marriage.
> 
> Dr. Schnarch explains the reptilian / mammalian issue quite well here...
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=15VZxliCJEoC&printsec=frontcover


I like where you're going but what if that focus was turned inward instead of outward?


----------



## john117

Because there's only so much you can do inwards.

Let's say my team is asked to design a smartphone for senile 80 year olds. We can simplify all we want, make the buttons big, etc but we will run into the limitations posed to us by the problem. Like StarTrek. We also can't redefine the problem. 

Or we are asked to design a smartphone that costs $5. Same thing. No matter how we choose parts and simplify there's no way we will meet BOM cost targets. Once again we can't redefine the problem.

The intimacy issue is more difficult because it's an all on or off binary outcome for one person. On the elderly phone we may get it right for 80% of the people and we are good; for the 5$ phone we may get it to $6 and we are good. But here it's one on one.

I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about it. A lot more than I should given the nature of the issue. I don't think many people have my perfect storm to deal with and in retrospect getting 25 good years out of my marriage was about as good as my brother getting 60,000 km out of his Yugo.....


----------



## Reg

*goodpop8*

My update...no update! I tried to have a talk with her twice yesterday and both times she was "too busy". The weekend is busy so I will try again on Monday.

Just to clarify an earlier comment; yes, I do work out 5-6 times a week but it is at 6am. And I am back in the house before anyone is awake.

As for spending time with her? I try everyday to spend time with her, whether it is just watching tv or going for a walk or dinner out. She never wants to do anything and like an idiot I keep trying (always have!). She won't even sit to watch tv with me any more and she sleeps in the spare room most nights.

Am I a doormat? Maybe. I just wanted to always provide the best life for my family and my feeling is that just because I am having troubles with my marriage, I should not take anything away from my children and their experiences growing up. Why shouldn't they have a great childhood-this is our problem, not theirs

Will keep updating, thanks for all the feedback


----------



## anchorwatch

Growing up in that house under those conditions, you don't think they see it? 

You both made it their problem.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

anchorwatch said:


> Growing up in that house under those conditions, you don't think they see it?
> 
> You both made it their problem.


Yep, people are delusional in their thought that they are shielding their kids from the sh!tty reality they are living in. Kids see EVERYTHING.


----------



## john117

You may not be able to shield your kids but you can talk to them. They are a lot smarter than we often give them credit for. 

As my kids have matured into young women I (and a therapist) have seen little evidence of impact from our marital fireworks of the last few years. It took a concerned effort from my part to get there. They do have their own unique personalities, borrowing from both parents but also plotting their own course. 

Both girls know of my Pearl Harbor plan and have no issue with it.


----------



## Chaparral

From what I've read you didn't follow ANY of the advise given you. Many men that have come here with the same problems have found success when changing things.

Your hard headed. That's the first thing you need to change. When it comes to your wife you're stupid.


----------



## Marduk

Chaparral said:


> From what I've read you didn't follow ANY of the advise given you. Many men that have come here with the same problems have found success when changing things.
> 
> Your hard headed. That's the first thing you need to change. When it comes to your wife you're stupid.


I don't think it's being hard headed.

I think it's fear.

Fear of what, is the question.


----------



## AVR1962

I didn't read thru all the replies so I may have missed something but marriage does not get to this point without there being issues. It would be interesting to hear your wife's side. Your marriage sounds much like mine, I am the wife. You make yourself sound good but what do you think would be your wife's complaint? Can you even think what it might be that has created this distance?

I'll tell you what has happened in my nearly 24 year marriage that has created distance and maybe you can identify with something. I worked and he worked but yet when he came home he didn't want to deal with the kids, didn't want to help with the house, didn't want to share the responsibilities which put an awful lot on me and I was resentful. He wanted to watch TV, play video games and late at night he wanted to search porn. He lied to me for many years about the porn but was finally caught by the kids....all of which added to the hard feelings. He seemingly had more interest in his female coworkers than he did in me which made me feel rejected. He was not a support. He leaned on me to make all the decisions and would not back me up when I did. When I needed him he was not available to me. This all caused hard feelings on my part and I slowly distanced myself from my husband. I eventually started sleeping in another bedroom, I turned away from him when he would kiss me. I was the one who no longer was interested in being touched and we, like you, did not have sex for a year.

My husband too thought he could lay down the law to me and force me back in his bed but what I realized is he was demanding of sex because that was how he saw me, like he saw all women, as sex objects. He wasn't creating a real relationship with me, this was about pleasing his sexual needs.

You're going to have to do a lot more than demand sex in order to save your marriage.


----------



## Reg

Not sure what my wife would say...

I am not demanding sex only. I am present in the relationship, I ask her every day to do things together or go for date nights or just to watch tv...nothing!

She only speaks to me in a very harsh tone and rolls her eyes constantly. it really pisses me off. And yes the kids pick up on her bitter tone and have started to talk to me in the same way.

I've told her many times that she speaks to me the same as one would at a dog crapping on the new carpet!!! I don't why she is so angry at all times. She never speaks to me in a normal tone of voice.

My mistake is that I tolerate this because I work in a very high stress environment and the last the I want is to fight when I come home so once every few weeks when I can't take any more I will lash out by telling her not to talk to me in this nasty tone and to stop rolling her eyes no matter what I say-even if it is to ask for the ketchup! I do have a boiling point. Just one remark on my part, I don't carry on and on, and I am dead

I make one remark back at her and that's it; I may have just as well slept with her best friend right in front of her!

Today is our 19th wedding anniversary. I sent her roses with a card. She has been home all day and she hasn't called to acknowledge them. I know that I shouldn't have sent the flowers but I just felt that it was the right thing to do. 

I am one spun guy


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## 3Xnocharm

Reg said:


> Not sure what my wife would say...
> 
> I am not demanding sex only. I am present in the relationship, I ask her every day to do things together or go for date nights or just to watch tv...nothing!
> *
> She only speaks to me in a very harsh tone and rolls her eyes constantly. it really pisses me off. And yes the kids pick up on her bitter tone and have started to talk to me in the same way.*
> 
> I've told her many times that she speaks to me the same as one would at a dog crapping on the new carpet!!! I don't why she is so angry at all times. She never speaks to me in a normal tone of voice.
> 
> My mistake is that I tolerate this because I work in a very high stress environment and the last the I want is to fight when I come home so once every few weeks when I can't take any more I will lash out by telling her not to talk to me in this nasty tone and to stop rolling her eyes no matter what I say-even if it is to ask for the ketchup! I do have a boiling point. Just one remark on my part, I don't carry on and on, and I am dead
> 
> I make one remark back at her and that's it; I may have just as well slept with her best friend right in front of her!
> 
> *Today is our 19th wedding anniversary. I sent her roses with a card. She has been home all day and she hasn't called to acknowledge them. I know that I shouldn't have sent the flowers but I just felt that it was the right thing to do.*
> 
> I am one spun guy


Seriously?? The woman is a total b!tch to you, wipes her feet all over you, and you send her FLOWERS???? And you wonder WHY things are the way they are?? Good God, man! You havent listened to a single damn thing anyone here has told you!


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## GusPolinski

*Re: goodpop8*



Reg said:


> My update...no update! I tried to have a talk with her twice yesterday and both times she was "too busy". The weekend is busy so I will try again on Monday.
> 
> Just to clarify an earlier comment; yes, I do work out 5-6 times a week but it is at 6am. And I am back in the house before anyone is awake.
> 
> As for spending time with her? I try everyday to spend time with her, whether it is just watching tv or going for a walk or dinner out. She never wants to do anything and like an idiot I keep trying (always have!). She won't even sit to watch tv with me any more and she sleeps in the spare room most nights.
> 
> Am I a doormat? Maybe. I just wanted to always provide the best life for my family and my feeling is that just because I am having troubles with my marriage, I should not take anything away from my children and their experiences growing up. Why shouldn't they have a great childhood-this is our problem, not theirs
> 
> Will keep updating, thanks for all the feedback


Not that it lets him off the hook for anything, but is anyone else thinking that Reg's wife might not have time for him because she's making time for someone else?


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## Angelou

Act like a doormat, get treated like a doormat.


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## AVR1962

Reg said:


> Not sure what my wife would say...
> 
> I am not demanding sex only. I am present in the relationship, I ask her every day to do things together or go for date nights or just to watch tv...nothing!
> 
> She only speaks to me in a very harsh tone and rolls her eyes constantly. it really pisses me off. And yes the kids pick up on her bitter tone and have started to talk to me in the same way.
> 
> I've told her many times that she speaks to me the same as one would at a dog crapping on the new carpet!!! I don't why she is so angry at all times. She never speaks to me in a normal tone of voice.
> 
> My mistake is that I tolerate this because I work in a very high stress environment and the last the I want is to fight when I come home so once every few weeks when I can't take any more I will lash out by telling her not to talk to me in this nasty tone and to stop rolling her eyes no matter what I say-even if it is to ask for the ketchup! I do have a boiling point. Just one remark on my part, I don't carry on and on, and I am dead
> 
> I make one remark back at her and that's it; I may have just as well slept with her best friend right in front of her!
> 
> Today is our 19th wedding anniversary. I sent her roses with a card. She has been home all day and she hasn't called to acknowledge them. I know that I shouldn't have sent the flowers but I just felt that it was the right thing to do.
> 
> I am one spun guy


I am trying to create a visual.....is she a domineering type, the one who makes all the decisions regardless of your input (or do you give any input?), the type that doesn't do much around the house but instead makes demands of everyone else, doesn't work but likes to spend your pay check, verbally berating and making you feel like a mouse while you do the cooking, support her decisions on what needs to be done in the house and with the kids, you follow her direction with little to say about it to keep peace, you are rather quiet type that spends your days at the office buried under stress which you never talk about at home. Does this sound about right? Maybe instead of the emotionally unavailable man that I thought you might have been at first perhaps it is that you are more the meek, people pleaser and you are finally tired of it?

In the case of the people please you have to be the one to turn your situation around. making demands of your wife and telling her to stop yelling at you are not going to make anything happen. People pleasers are generally codependent. Codependency that was rooted since childhood, sorry to say. The responses you have are based on your responses in childhood. If you look back to yourself as a child I bet you will see you react to your wife the same way that you did to either your very domineering mother or father, or both.

Instead of yelling at your wife to stop yelling at you and trying to force her to have sex with ultimatums you needs to say something like, "When you are ready to talk I would like to speak to you, I am going to be ______ (location)" and you walk away....no yelling, no accusations. If she comes at you, you tell her just what you said before and walk away. If she tries again to come at you then you tell her that you do not want to be a part of this (calmly) and tell her that you are going to leave the house for a couple hours until so she can calm down. If that throws her into a tail spin you tell her you will call in a couple hours and leave. If you call in couple hours and she is still yelling then you tell her you feel she needs more time. I think you get my point here. You do not take on her emotions. She is the one responsible for her own emotions. This only applies if she is the domineering type that has been wearing the pants and you have been Mr Meek sitting in the corner obeying all her commands. If you are the emotionally unavailable man, this advise is not for you.

If codependency sparks your thoughts I suggest reading the book, "Change Your Mind and Your Life Will Follow." I have seen many men in situations with their wives where the woman becomes sole dictator. These women tend to be unmotivated, do not keep themselves up, make everyone do their work for them and the house is usually a mess. Their husbands are quiet workers that love these women, perhaps it reminds them of their mother they could not please. I watch in horror as these situations play out, wondering what the man sees in this woman and why he plays along. Unfortunately if you are the codependent type, leaving is not the solution as you will go out and find yet another woman that will treat you the same way. These are the type of women you are comfortable and feel safe with as they more than likely remind you of your mother (even if you didn't care for your mom, there is a comfort level).

Just thoughts and something to think about.


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## MarriedToTheOne

SurpriseMyself said:


> Haven't read through all the posts, so this certainly could have been said already but here goes:
> 
> Does you wife want a nice house, a new car, flowers, gifts, etc. or does she want a husband who loves her and has time for her?
> 
> The posts I did read talk about the OP coming home from work at 10 pm, working out 5 to 6 times a week, and spending all his free time with his girls. Where is the marriage? Where is the time spent with the wife to keep the love alive? I suspect that you are indeed doing the wrong things, but you aren't a doormat. You are just assuming that you being a good provider and such is what is required to keep love alive. You have a covert contract as per NMMNG that you need to undo! Once you do that, you need to discover what she does want. Let's hope it's not too late.
> 
> And as for eating meals alone and sitting on the other end of the sofa, I think she's telling you that you have left her alone for so long that you don't just get to walk in and have her attention on your time. You abandoned her by putting everyone else first. She get the scraps of your time and you expect her to just leap into your arms with joy? Ain't gonna happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




IMO, you really need to start at the beginning a read the WHOLE THREAD....It seems to be that you have read a half dozen comments (out of scores and scores) and have jumped to a conclusion that is WAY off base... that maybe combined with a man-hating mindset (maybe based on own problems?) that jumps to conclusion that it HAS to be the guy!

Why do you prefer to him as the OP? He is the HUSBAND... the lingo OP refers to "Other Person", such as the "other person in an infidelity situation" - not the husband or wife! Big tipoff right there.

Sorry, but that's exactly how it sounds!


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## MarriedToTheOne

SurpriseMyself said:


> Haven't read through all the posts, so this certainly could have been said already but here goes:
> 
> Does you wife want a nice house, a new car, flowers, gifts, etc. or does she want a husband who loves her and has time for her?
> 
> The posts I did read talk about the OP coming home from work at 10 pm, working out 5 to 6 times a week, and spending all his free time with his girls. Where is the marriage? Where is the time spent with the wife to keep the love alive? I suspect that you are indeed doing the wrong things, but you aren't a doormat. You are just assuming that you being a good provider and such is what is required to keep love alive. You have a covert contract as per NMMNG that you need to undo! Once you do that, you need to discover what she does want. Let's hope it's not too late.
> 
> And as for eating meals alone and sitting on the other end of the sofa, I think she's telling you that you have left her alone for so long that you don't just get to walk in and have her attention on your time. You abandoned her by putting everyone else first. She get the scraps of your time and you expect her to just leap into your arms with joy? Ain't gonna happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And the fact that you say - after admitting you have read all the comments (the Post is the original start of the Thread... then you have replies - numerous in this case - to the original Post... And then replies to replies sometimes) that maybe this has already been said... what? That other reads a few replies and likewise jumped to a conclusion based on a lot of erroneous assumptions???


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## MarriedToTheOne

barbados said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I said this in my last post :
> 
> " I sincerely hope this thread turns out to be fake because I would hate to thing there are doormats out there like OP. "




OP is terrible lingo. I realize that here it appears to be "Original Poster", but on MOST relationship forums it stands for "Other Person" as in an affair or infidelity situation. 

Can't he be referred to as the husband, hubby, or even just Reg?


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## MarriedToTheOne

Chaparral said:


> From what I've read you didn't follow ANY of the advise given you. Many men that have come here with the same problems have found success when changing things.
> 
> Your hard headed. That's the first thing you need to change. When it comes to your wife you're stupid.




I have been reading this closely.

And I have seen the giving of advice in SEVERAL DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.....More than I can keep track of. 

Scores (literally) of DIFFERENT strategic recommendations.

Please... tell me which one(s) that he should have followed (and be specific) that would have given a STRONG element of success.

And specifically WHAT changes he should have been making.

Where is he "hard headed" (by the way, it is "you're... not "your")? Because he doesn't do EXACTLY as you would have?

Where are the examples of the many men who have come here and followed this UNSPECIFIED advice and found success when "changing things" (what things?)???

And just what is your track record in being able to state, "when it comes to your wife you're stupid" (sic).

Your psychological degrees? Your counseling expertise? Or maybe your personal knowledge of other details of THIS situation that gives you personal insight?

I see a guy who is trying a lot of things. None of which may end up being successful, but at least has - so far - the guts and patience to keep trying


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## MarriedToTheOne

AVR1962 said:


> I didn't read thru all the replies so I may have missed something but marriage does not get to this point without there being issues. It would be interesting to hear your wife's side. Your marriage sounds much like mine, I am the wife. You make yourself sound good but what do you think would be your wife's complaint? Can you even think what it might be that has created this distance?
> 
> I'll tell you what has happened in my nearly 24 year marriage that has created distance and maybe you can identify with something. I worked and he worked but yet when he came home he didn't want to deal with the kids, didn't want to help with the house, didn't want to share the responsibilities which put an awful lot on me and I was resentful. He wanted to watch TV, play video games and late at night he wanted to search porn. He lied to me for many years about the porn but was finally caught by the kids....all of which added to the hard feelings. He seemingly had more interest in his female coworkers than he did in me which made me feel rejected. He was not a support. He leaned on me to make all the decisions and would not back me up when I did. When I needed him he was not available to me. This all caused hard feelings on my part and I slowly distanced myself from my husband. I eventually started sleeping in another bedroom, I turned away from him when he would kiss me. I was the one who no longer was interested in being touched and we, like you, did not have sex for a year.
> 
> My husband too thought he could lay down the law to me and force me back in his bed but what I realized is he was demanding of sex because that was how he saw me, like he saw all women, as sex objects. He wasn't creating a real relationship with me, this was about pleasing his sexual needs.
> 
> You're going to have to do a lot more than demand sex in order to save your marriage.



You really, really do need to go to the start and read the original Post and then all of the replies and follow-ups. Your analysis is WAY off base and your attempt to compare it with your own situation (when there's tons of differences) simply reveals a bias against husbands and (IMO) some fairly strong degree of "mandating" (unless you can be dominate). 

Where's any advice towards helping his relationship? 

All I see is attacking and trying hard to make sure the husband carries all the blame... I think that most of us here are adult enough to understand that Rev is giving the story from his perspective... And that is the perspective that he sees it from. But we are adult enough to know that somewhere along the way he owns some of the blame (though the STRONG consensus is that it's from being too much of a doormat instead of a dominant controller).

But then HATERS will hate....


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## MarriedToTheOne

I hope that you are still hanging in there and TRYING.

Something that some people simply don't understand in our "Self Love" culture that maybe it is so my because you LOVE someone more than anything in the world and WILL try as long as there is ANY hope whatsoever... no matter how astronomical.

I do not want to be a hypocrite and sit here and try to give you advice (much less call you hard headed or stupid) when I have my own battles to fight in the relationship arena and absolutely do NOT have the answers.

I will simply wish you well in resurrecting your relationship, pray for you (both of you) - and hope upon hope for the best!


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## MarriedToTheOne

As I have noted a tendency in many Threads by certain individuals (who I guess would have an association with the Marriage Builders Program) to enthusiastically endorse certain books (in some cases books focused very significantly on strictly affairs - whether that's the problem or not - and then to offer, IMO, some suspect advice), I felt that it might be a good idea to offer a number of suggestions as to several books, and by multiple authors.

These books are offered as based on a combination of reviews in general, my own reading and studying of each one, and feedback that I have received from a number of non connected experts.

I would note that these books specifically are oriented towards intimacy, desire, and passion within marriages and other significant and serious relationships.

By David Morris Schnarch: Resurrecting Sex, Passionate Marriage, Intimacy & Desire

Dr. Sandra Scantling: Extraordinary Sex Now

Laurie Watson: Wanting Sex Again

Christopher McCluskey: When Two Become One 
(Caution - while some VG advice at times, know that it has a Christian response theme of such that may be troublesome for some)

Shmuel Boteach: Has a number of books out but can get somewhat repetitive and (as a caution) does have a strong Orthodox Judaic background), but Kosher Sex and Kosher Adultery have some good points.

Mort Fertel: Marriage Fitness

Barton Goldsmith: Emotional Fitness for Couples

Michele Weiner-Davis: The Sex Starved Marriage

Barry W. McCarthy: Rekindling Desire (Expanded 2014 Edition)

David Richo: Daring to Trust 
(Caution: Richo's later books tend to blend in - or attempt to - Eastern religious and philosophical practices with Western psychological practices and as a result the content quality drops dramatically)

Dr. Kevin Leman: Sheet Music 
(Later books - many on other subjects - interject Christian philosophies into material, tend too get lower reviews)

Lucy Sanna: How to Romance the Woman You Love 
(Very good if you - the male partner - aren't getting intimacy because you aren't meeting your SO's needs as listed - but not so good if you are or are trying to but resisted).

Edward M. Hallowell: Married to Distraction

Laurie Puhn: Fight Less, Love More

Marnia Robinson: Peace Between The Sheets, Cupid's Poisoned Arrow

Robert Firestone: Fear of Intimacy, Sex and Love in Intimate Relationships

Ellen Kriedman: 10-Second Kiss

Holly Hollenbeck: Sex Lives of Wives 
(More so for women of low passion / libido who wish to address that situation)

Anita Clayton: Satisfaction 
(Pretty much like the Hollenbeck book as being more oriented towards women)

David Zinczenko: Men, Love, and Sex 
(Definitely for the Woman who realizes problems that need to be fixed... though men would likely find interesting)

Shaunti Feldhahn: The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Marriages

Laura Doyle: First, Kill All The Marriage Counselors


(Please stay away from John Gray, Gary Chapman, and Willard Harley....IMO they are, though in different directions, cultish and provide illogical advice - plus I have concerns as to "experts" who pump out repeated books with the same basic, hardly unchanged message and / or with agendas that supersede YOUR problem... 

(And ANY book - or Program - that emphasizes the concepts taught by the New Age "Self Love Culture" that pushes the concepts of "learning to love yourself first" and "love yourself first, foremost, and always" and similar such claptrap... my advice is to RUN, not walk, away from those as fast and far as possible. The Self Love Culture as part of SHAM - as started in the 1970s and really accelerated seriously since the 1980s - is IMO a large part of what is ruining this country).


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## Nucking Futs

MarriedToTheOne said:


> OP is terrible lingo. I realize that here it appears to be "Original Poster", but on MOST relationship forums it stands for "Other Person" as in an affair or infidelity situation.
> 
> Can't he be referred to as the husband, hubby, or even just Reg?


Here, as on most forums of any subject, OP stands for Original Poster. Get used to it. Or don't, I don't really care as long as you quit whining about it.


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## See_Listen_Love

Reg said:


> I sent her roses with a card. She has been home all day and she hasn't called to acknowledge them. I know that I shouldn't have sent the flowers but I just felt that it was the right thing to do.
> 
> I am one spun guy


You are incredible ignorant. I read your older and newer posts.

If you read some threads here you will recognize yourself as an enormous doormat. She has long ago lost all respect for you, and yes your are only the physical but boaring representation of the paycheck in her life.

Why on earth would you act like that, oh well, I read so many times the responses of other total beta guys...do not answer that question...

Maybe you can learn from them and change your life. Dating for fun is OK, but do not start a relation untill you have changed, otherwise you do it all over again. And harm other people in the process.


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## lovelyblue

Reg I read your whole post and for the life of me I can't understand why you stay in your M.

Sure you love your girls and you want the best for them by staying but I'll tell you I saw my mom unhappy for a long time with her ex-bf and my dad be for that all I wanted was for her to be happy.

Seeing her suffer was very unpleasant for me. 

IMO your girls my be hurt if you Div their mom but they'll get over it also they'll know that they can make the same choice if they were ever in the same position.

-(I hope my post make sense)-


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## 3Xnocharm

MarriedToTheOne said:


> I hope that you are still hanging in there and TRYING.


WHY?? Do you like to see someone demeaning themselves? Over and over and over? Because that is what he has been doing for far too long now. There is no "resurrecting" this relationship, it has flatlined and the wife has called time of death.


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## AliceA

You're not married. What you have isn't a marriage. Divorce at this point is just a formality. Your wife is a single woman putting up with a guy living with her because he's paying the bills. You are a single man living with a woman who doesn't even like him because he's afraid of change. You'd still be a father and your wife would still be a mother even if you finally admitted that you're divorced.


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