# How do they live with it.



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So there is a post, let's assume it's real, on SI by a man whose SAH wife went to work after 15 years. In a short time "fell in love" with a guy from her job and blew up her life. She has apologized but told him they did everything, and that she was "in love" with him. Now assuming the theories are right and this is all just limerence and aftermath of being a SAH mom so long and having someone new take interest in her, once that dies down how can she live with herself. 

It is very obvious from any outsider that this was the most horrible of choices. Doesn't sound like he was a bad husband it just sounds like she was just another one of these entitled people who was bored. Now what are the chances the guy from work is going to want be a stepfather to 3 kids? So she blew up everyone who was loyal to her in her life and her children for about 3 months of fun and sex. 

Again how do you recover from blowing up your kids and the man you loved for 15 years. The man who gave you children and supported you while you could stay at home and raise them. Presumably, if you are human (though maybe she doesn't have this kind of decency) she will eventually realize the wickedness of her actions. Though I guess a whole lot of them never do. I mean just on a human level to treat another human being like that. 

A WW who I wish would come back on here posted about dealing with the aftermath on another thread yesterday. But this person had PPD and got hooked on Xanax, and they didn't even have sex, let alone fall in love. I don't think what she did is in the same universe. Yet the pain she posted, about her life and her as a person being before the affair and now after the affair was visceral. What if this woman in this SI post wakes up to what she did to her husband and family. 

This reminds me of the post on here where the woman has to spend 6 years in prison for drunk driving. To me, if this woman ever realizes the depravity of what she did, it will be worse than that, it will be a lifetime. It's like drunk driving and then waking up with no legs. But then again maybe to do something like that means you will never understand the depths of pain you caused. You very rarely see posts where people who do horrible things like this say how they are racked with guilt. But you see tons of post with the same entitlement that lead to this woman doing this. This is why I have very little faith in R. 

How do you repentant WS live with it? I think it would end up consuming me.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i believe most cheating is done for reasons of validation. validation is like a very addictive drug.
it's almost impossible to deny oneself. most cheaters (not all) suffer from extreme feelings of inadequacy for whatever reasons.
they crave validation and when it presents itself they cannot resist. it's like a breath of fresh air after being in an underground
cave when your suffocating.

that's why many cheaters 'dumb down'. the source of the validation is not as important as the validation itself.

they don't think about the aftermath. think about it for a moment. if you're in that proverbial cave, suffocating, all you want is fresh air.
you don't think about what might be up there on the ground level surface. deal with that when it comes.
all you want is that escape from where you are and you'll do anything to get there.

then when things blow up, you will make the excuses to yourself. my husband(wife) abused me. never brought me flowers. told me i was ugly.
denied me sex. the excuses are a myriad as the stars in the sky. the bottom line? I can't be a bad person. that's too painful.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Besides finding grace and peace in my forgiveness of her, my wife found comfort in the book of Paul. 

Just as you should be ashamed for constantly trying to separate the wheat from the chaff {how will you ever live with yourself}, we could all stand to learn a thing or two from the life of Paul. I'm not saying we can't discern and judge bad behavior, just that we can't/don't stand in full complete judgement of yet living people. Throughout the bible Jesus chooses the shameful, most lowly and the foolish, the very same people we too often reject or try to write off as worthless here. 

From Got Answers dot Org -
 "What can we learn from the life of Paul" .




> ......
> 
> So, what can we learn from the life of the Apostle Paul? First, we learn that God can save anyone. The remarkable story of Paul repeats itself every day as sinful, broken people all over the world are transformed by God’s saving grace in Jesus Christ. Some of these people have done despicable things to other human beings, while some just try to live a moral life thinking that God will smile upon them on the day of judgment. When we read the story of Paul and know what he had done, it is difficult for us to believe that God would allow into heaven religious extremists who murder innocent women and children. Today, we might see people on death row as unworthy of redemption because their crimes against humanity are just too great. Yet we live our lives in a sinful manner, expecting that God will be impressed by the fact that we haven’t killed anyone. The story of Paul is a story that can be told today—he isn’t worthy in our eyes of a second chance, yet to God he is worthy. The truth is that every person matters to God, from the “good, decent,” average person to the “wicked, evil” degenerate. Only God can save a soul from hell.



You'd also notice when studying Paul that he did NOT escape suffering during his life in the flesh. He didn't escape the consequences of his sins, but boy did he ever build a legacy for himself and the kingdom of God after he repented. Likewise, I don't think it's always easy or even possible for repentant former wayward spouse to forget what they did, especially every time they witness a blessing in their life thereafter {a life they almost threw away for nothing}; but, if they use their remaining time wisely sharing their testimony and the Word, the gift of repentance, God's love and bringing blessings to others while building a legacy for themselves and their families, it sure helps. 

It's a good lesson for *all* of us sinners.


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## Melrose8888 (Jan 1, 2017)

Wow, that story could equally be mine.

It's painful to watch as a bystander, let alone as her STBXH, but these things do happen and I guess only time will tell if it was all worth it for the WW.

What these WW don't see as they are immersed in the fog and limerence, is the far and wide impact their actions have on the rest of the world. I estimate at least 100 friends and family have been involved, to one degree or another, in the deterioration of our marriage. Then there are the equal amount on the POSOM side too. My parents are two of the most badly hit: I've only ever seen my Dad cry 3 times in his life, 1 of those time was last week when he broke down when I was telling him how this has affected me. My Mum is broken.

But the WW don't care. It's selfish. It's self-fulfilling. It's borderline cruelty. But they don't care. It's entitlement. It's all about 'me, me, me'.


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> the bottom line? I can't be a bad person. that's too painful.


I think this is it right here. If you admit that's what you are, it's just too damaging for most people. You can see that wall of pain coming from a mile away, so I think most people just rationalize themselves into pretzels trying to avoid facing it -- to avoid shattering their own self image that badly. As a result, they can never work up to admitting it to themselves, much less to others. They'd probably die if they had to.

It's one of the reasons I'm willing to give my wife a chance right now. She's recently come to admit this, and I respect her for it. And yes, as a result she's been going through serious emotional turmoil lately.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> that's why many cheaters 'dumb down'. the source of the validation is not as important as the validation itself.


It took me a long time to figure this out. I'm successful in my profession, own my house free and clear, good salary, ect. One of my ex-fiancée's boyfriends (yes, plural ) was a balding fat loser. Talk about a big hit to the ego.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

I love got questions dot org.


GotQuestions.org


Question: "What is the difference between iniquity, sin, and transgression?"

Answer: In Psalm 32:5, the psalmist says, “I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.’” In this one verse, “sin,” “iniquity,” and “transgression” are all mentioned. Basically, the three words communicate the same idea: evil and lawlessness, as defined by God (see 1 John 3:4). However, upon closer examination, each word also carries a slightly different meaning.

The word sin and its cognates are used 786 times in the New International Version of the Bible. Sin means “to miss the mark.” It can refer to doing something against God or against a person (Exodus 10:16), doing the opposite of what is right (Galatians 5:17), doing something that will have negative results (Proverbs 24:33–34), and failing to do something you know is right (James 4:17). In the Old Testament, God even instituted sacrifices for unintentional sins (Numbers 15:27). Sin is the general term for anything that “falls short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Sin leads to a downward progression that, without the restoring power of the Holy Spirit, we all tend toward. The sin nature is present in every human being born since the Fall of Adam (Genesis 3:6–7; Romans 5:12). If left unchecked, continual sin leads to a “reprobate mind,” spoken of in Romans 1:24. Our sin nature causes us to gravitate naturally toward selfishness, envy, and pride, even when we are trying to do good. The apostle Paul alluded to his propensity to sin when he wrote, “For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” (Romans 7:18).

The sin nature leads to trespassing. A trespasser is someone who crosses a line or climbs a fence that he should not cross or climb. A trespass may be intentional or unintentional. Trespass can also mean “to fall away after being close beside.” Peter trespassed when he denied Jesus (Luke 22:34, 56–62). We all “cross the line” in thought, word, or attitude many times a day and should be quick to forgive others who do the same (Matthew 6:15).

Transgression refers to presumptuous sin. It means “to choose to intentionally disobey; willful trespassing.” Samson intentionally broke his Nazirite vow by touching a dead lion (Numbers 6:1–5; Judges 14:8–9) and allowing his hair to be cut (Judges 16:17); in doing so he was committing a transgression. David was referring to this kind of sin when he wrote, “Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered” (Psalm 32:1). When we knowingly run a stop sign, tell a lie, or blatantly disregard an authority, we are transgressing.

Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means “premeditated choice, continuing without repentance.” David’s sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:3–4; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, “Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At morning’s light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it.” In David’s psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, “Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51:2).

God forgives iniquity, as He does any type of sin when we repent (Jeremiah 33:8; Hebrews 8:12). However, iniquity left unchecked leads to a state of willful sin with no fear of God. The build-up of unrepentant sin is sometimes pictured as a “cup of iniquity” being filled to the brim (Revelation 17:4; Genesis 15:16). This often applies to nations who have forsaken God completely. Continued iniquity leads to unnatural affections, which leads to a reprobate mind. Romans 1:28–32 outlines this digression in vivid detail. The sons of Eli are biblical examples of reprobates whom God judged for their iniquities (1 Samuel 3:13–14). Rather than repent, Eli’s sons continued in their abominations until repentance was no longer possible.

The biblical writers used different words to refer to sin in its many forms. However, regardless of how depraved a human heart may become, Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient to cover all sin (John 1:29; Romans 5:18). Psalm 32:5, quoted at the beginning of this article, ends with these words: “And you forgave the guilt of my sin.” The only sin that God cannot forgive is the final rejection of the Holy Spirit’s drawing to repentance—the ultimate fruit of a reprobate mind (Matthew 12:32; Luke 12:10).

© Copyright 2002-2017 Got Questions Ministries


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I think you spend way too much time on SI 

My husband asks me every once in a while if I think he's a better person today than he was in 2010. He works hard at improvement, constantly. Like we all should, really. He (and I) see what he did as something in the past that we both learned from. A HUGE something, yes, but not so huge it's insurmountable. He tried for a while to stop talking about or thinking about what he did - I suppose that's one way of 'living with it'. But of course, since he wanted R with me, that wasn't going to fly. He had to face it head on. He still attends his 12 step group so I know he does still think about it at least that often. He also comes home periodically from his group and asks me stuff about how I am doing.

I guess the short answer is that he lives with it by doing the opposite of rug sweeping it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This post will be about haves.

Have you ever been inside a woman's purse? Have you seen all the stuff that they put in there, all neatly organized. Some in pockets, some in little satchels, some in little purses. All put in compartments.

Have you ever been inside a woman's closet? Have you seen all the stuff that they put in there, The clothes are in tiers. the shoes on racks at the bottom and in hanging cases. There are belts, bonnets, scarves, jewelery, all neatly put in compartments.

The same goes for her bathroom, hall closets and linen closets and office spaces. Does NOT apply to their cars or the cars trunk...messy, messy.

They say that men can compartmentalize things...yes, mental issues, mental challenges.

They do not hold a candle to women. Ever watch a women gather and pack up the stuff a baby needs for a short trip? Sheesh.

Look, the ability is there, ten fold to men. 

Women who cheat are 'often' not quite like other women, they are more like men. They CAN compartmentalize their feelings. Remember, men and women differ mainly by hormonal balances. Some women are more masculine, more assertive, more horny, more selfish, less self-less [looking past physical differences] 

Difference: When a women organizes her house she uses her brain. When a women cheats she uses her clumsy heart. The brain tags along because it needs the blood, needs the oxygen. It follows the heart around and puts stuff in their improper place. Just to survive.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

sokillme said:


> .....It is very obvious from any outsider that this was the most horrible of choices. Doesn't sound like he was a bad husband it just sounds like she was just another one of these entitled people who was bored. Now what are the chances the guy from work is going to want be a stepfather to 3 kids? So she blew up everyone who was loyal to her in her life and her children for about 3 months of fun and sex.
> 
> Again how do you recover from blowing up your kids and the man you loved for 15 years. The man who gave you children and supported you while you could stay at home and raise them. Presumably, if you are human (though maybe she doesn't have this kind of decency) she will eventually realize the wickedness of her actions. Though I guess a whole lot of them never do. I mean just on a human level to treat another human being like that.
> 
> .......How do you repentant WS live with it? I think it would end up consuming me.


A few things. To the best of my knowledge my LD wife has never been unfaithful to me. Still having gone through a lot with her, I would like to make a few observations.

(1) Having children with my wife and having her stay at home to raise them is quite a blessing to me. I am so happy to have those children and now grandchildren in my life. To know that they were raised right and are now responsible adults gives me great joy. I actively participated in the raising of my children and would gladly do it all again.

(2) Nothing that my wife could do, would destroy my love for my children or make me regret having them become part of my life. You can't blow up your children with an affair. She may have destroyed their faith in her and her ethics, cast in doubt her ability to make a lifetime commitment of love. she might have even tried to say bad things about her husband to her children to justify her own failings. However, she couldn't blow up her children of the love that their father has for them.

(3) Most people do eventually recognize the wickedness of their own actions. Some even reach as state of grace where they apologize and ask for forgiveness. There are a set of steps in the grieving process. Acceptance comes last. Actually forgiveness of yourself comes last. 

(4) (and what i really wanted to talk about) "......How do you repentant WS live with it?" First let's look at what the dictionary says.



> penitence, repentance, contrition, compunction, remorse mean regret for sin or wrongdoing. penitence implies sad and humble realization of and regret for one's misdeeds <absolution is dependent upon sincere penitence>. repentance adds the implication of a resolve to change <repentance accompanied by a complete change of character>. contrition stresses the sorrowful regret that constitutes true penitence <tearful expressions of contrition>. compunction implies a painful sting of conscience especially for contemplated wrongdoing <had no compunctions about taking back what is mine>. remorse suggests prolonged and insistent self-reproach and mental anguish for past wrongs and especially for those whose consequences cannot be remedied <thieves untroubled by feelings of remorse>.


So you have regret, realization of misdeeds, a resolution to change oneself, and possible mental anguish.

How do you live with such feelings. You recognize your faults, learn from them, change, and move forward.

From my own personal experience, which has no similarity to that of the WS in this story, I know how I dealt with my sins for which I repented. During this past year of Holy Mercy, I visited a pilgrimage church and entered through a Holy door. I attended Mass and prayed for the Pope and for Mercy in this world. I confessed my sins to a Priest. We discussed my sins, which were pretty minor, but he told me of his and God's forgiveness of me. We prayed together. After it was over, I felt so much better and freer of heart. If God can forgive you and you believe it in your heart and mind, then certainly you can forgive yourself.

Good luck.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I think you spend way too much time on SI


I agree. :crying:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I'm reading here a lot about the person thinking about what they did to themselves. What about looking at, living with the people you destroyed. Being the parent whose children's future you have forever changed. I get that you can except that you blew up your own life, but how does a parent look at the kids and live with themselves. I think you have to be in denial. I will never understand this. I don't understand my own father, who I call my best friend. He probably thinks it didn't affect me, but it changed my life. I totally believe I got a late start in life because I lost like 3 years of my life to the aftermath of his affair. I believe I would have been much more successful without losing those 3 years. 

How do they sleep? Yet most of them do. They must not operate the same way. This is really the only explanation that makes sense to me.


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

I think cheaters are fundamentally wired differently than normal people. It's not just that they run different software. The actual processor and hard-drive are not the same as other people.

We have all heard the same old lists of reasons and "whys" for affairs. Lack of attention, unmet emotional needs, FOO, etc etc. But the inconvenient fact is there are thousands upon thousands of people who have those exact same issues and do not cheat.

So why to cheaters cheat? For the same reason they can sleep like babies while having their affair and after, when their spouses are reeling in pain and the family is damaged. They are selfish. They put their desires above all else. They are a self selecting group of individuals with less than average empathy. It's all about them and their feelings. It is this wiring that allows them to "compartmentalize." Which is to say, allows them to lie without guilt. 

So to a normal person who is not wired that way it just does not compute. You wonder, "how can the live with themselves?" Well for them its not that difficult. For a non-cheater, putting their family and marriage as risk for some fun is just not a consideration. Any trying to understand a cheater with a non-cheater mind is a like a hummingbird try to understand a snake.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stillthinking said:


> I think cheaters are fundamentally wired differently than normal people. It's not just that they run different software. The actual processor and hard-drive are not the same as other people.
> 
> We have all heard the same old lists of reasons and "whys" for affairs. Lack of attention, unmet emotional needs, FOO, etc etc. But the inconvenient fact is there are thousands upon thousands of people who have those exact same issues and do not cheat.
> 
> ...


It's like I am reading my own post.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Not sure either "side" is normal. I think both groups are normal. I think both instincts - selfish and selfless - evolved to address survival pressures. If you are selfish and take more than your fair share of the meat from the mammoth the tribe killed, you are stronger and healthier and have more energy. That is a plus for survival. You are more likely to survive a famine. On the other hand, some survival situations require help from other people. If you have been too selfish for too long, maybe the rest of your tribe refuses to come to your aid when you need help. So there is a balance between selfishness helping and hurting your chances of survival. So humans ended up with a range of instincts for selfishness and selflessness. Both are "normal" in the sense that both occur frequently.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

If a lot of people agree cheating is all about "me" or an addiction like a junky may have why do we not see it more like the cheater has emotionally checked out ? Isn't that how some would live with it? If a cheater has decided in their head that their life is so miserable- whether it's true or not- that cheating makes them feel better isn't that a coping mechanism? 

Do addicts or alcoholics take note of how the rest of their world is collapsing because of their problem? Why do some stressed people "respond" with high blood pressure and heart problems while others resort to drugs or alcohol?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Because they're so awfully good at lying/trickle-truthing to their BS, children, friends, and community, about their covert infidelity! Unless found out, their motto largely is "Silence is golden!"

Having said that, it should come just as naturally easy for them to be able to lie to themselves about it! They rarely, if ever, have a measurable conscience!*


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

There are probably as many reasons for cheating as there are cheater. I said before infidelity is like any other willful tort in that it requires three elements, opportunity, justification, and perceived pressure. The pressure can range from a weak self image to selfishness and rejection by their spouse. (yep, I'm saying the cheater ain't the only one that can be selfish). In fact, many betrayed's who carp about how bad an affair hurt the kids, are more than willing to reconcile with the cheater with a high risk of failure and an atmosphere of tension. 
I've harped on this since I became a member, a common thread in most, not all, but most is the cheating spouse has lost enough interest in the relationship that they feel the risk are worth the reward. The so called "remorseful spouse" if there really are any, are those who realize, many months or most likely years later, their decision to have an affair was a gross error in judgement and they could have lost everything in the process. Most figure, hey, I must have not done too much damage. They let me off the hook pretty easy. 
Bottom line is you as the BS believes you were the center of the universe of your cheating spouse just before they got involved in an affair, you may need to rethink that concept. Be it a ONS or a long term run, they justified cheating on you long before they consummated the act.


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Bottom line is you as the BS believes you were the center of the universe of your cheating spouse just before they got involved in an affair, you may need to rethink that concept. Be it a ONS or a long term run, they justified cheating on you long before they consummated the act.


Regardless of whether one divorces or attempts to reconcile I think this point is incredibly important.

I have come to realize that my wife -- well before the affair was even a twinkle in her eye -- did not value me nearly as much as I had always believed she did. She wasn't lying to me, I just didn't know her heart of hearts. So even if we do manage to get our marriage back to square one, I now realize that square one is not going to be the place I always thought we were in.

This is valuable information, and raises questions that have to be answered before continuing the marriage, I'll have to think about this more. Anyway, I thought @VladDracul made an excellent point.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Not sure either "side" is normal. I think both groups are normal. I think both instincts - selfish and selfless - evolved to address survival pressures. If you are selfish and take more than your fair share of the meat from the mammoth the tribe killed, you are stronger and healthier and have more energy. That is a plus for survival. You are more likely to survive a famine. On the other hand, some survival situations require help from other people. If you have been too selfish for too long, maybe the rest of your tribe refuses to come to your aid when you need help. So there is a balance between selfishness helping and hurting your chances of survival. So humans ended up with a range of instincts for selfishness and selflessness. Both are "normal" in the sense that both occur frequently.


Let's say a good choice for a monogamous relationship. If you define it that way it's easy to choose. 

Here is how I think of normal, though. If only the selfish ones would be honest but they are not, why is that? The fact that they are not means they know that their behaviors would not be tolerated in today's society. So from a societal standpoint being honest is the behavior that has been defined as normal.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> Regardless of whether one divorces or attempts to reconcile I think this point is incredibly important.
> 
> I have come to realize that my wife -- well before the affair was even a twinkle in her eye -- did not value me nearly as much as I had always believed she did. She wasn't lying to me, I just didn't know her heart of hearts. So even if we do manage to get our marriage back to square one, I now realize that square one is not going to be the place I always thought we were in.
> 
> This is valuable information, and raises questions that have to be answered before continuing the marriage, I'll have to think about this more. Anyway, I thought @VladDracul made an excellent point.


I always see this as to the WS love doesn't really have the same kind meaning as the non-cheater. Same with sex. You see many BS say how could they do this to the sanctity of our marriage bed. Thing is, to your WS there never was any sanctity. You were just someone they slept with. Like having a coffee with. They just made you think they felt like you because if you knew you wouldn't be as attracted to them. This is why I don't buy the idea that someone who has had many sexual partners can all of a sudden see some sanctity in sex. How does a piece of paper change any of that. (I know I will get killed for this). 

The same goes for love, for the BS love didn't mean value above all else. It means, "I like being with this person, I like how they make me feel". So when they stop feeling that way and start feeling it about someone else, "well my marriage really isn't' that good anyway". For me, love is about giving yourself to someone, not what you get from someone. Two different ideas of what love is. 

This is why it is particularly painful to watch BS R and go right back to thinking that now somehow there WS NOW feels about love and sex they way the BS does. They just don't and you are once again deluding yourself. They won't without a lot of work and besides that what is their motivation. I don't know how it works, I don't even know if that can change. Better to understand, you can't have a bond over the sanctity of your sexual relationship with someone who sees it nothing more than a coffee date, for instance. You will drive yourself crazy trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If you really want a square peg you go elsewhere.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

My ex lives with herself very easily because she: 1. Is dishonest with herself. 2. Is extremely conflict avoidant, thus won't engage in the self struggle of recognizing and acknowledging what she's done. 3. Lacks the intellectual capacity to comprehend the magnitude of what she did. 4. Has lost her conscience. I would consider it to be a miracle if she ever initiated self confrontation.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

VladDracul said:


> Bottom line is you as the BS believes you were the center of the universe of your cheating spouse just before they got involved in an affair, you may need to rethink that concept. *Be it a ONS or a long term run, they justified cheating on you long before they consummated the act*.


Very true.

YouTube the vid "Walk Away Wife". My WW walked out on our marriage years before her first affair. Her former Boss happened to be her AP, but it really could of been anyone she knew, trusted, and showed her the attention she felt justified.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> My ex lives with herself very easily because she: 1. Is dishonest with herself. 2. Is extremely conflict avoidant, thus won't engage in the self struggle of recognizing and acknowledging what she's done. 3. Lacks the intellectual capacity to comprehend the magnitude of what she did. 4. Has lost her conscience. I would consider it to be a miracle if she ever initiated self confrontation.


You left out 5, my man, which encompasses the other four. She just doesn't dig you that much resulting in a low romantic interest. Therefore, 
--she's dishonest with you and everybody because it serves her interest, including avoiding conflict.
-- she knows what she did, understands the magnitude but doesn't give a rats azz.
-- has covered the "conscience" part because she previously justified her actions before cranking them up.


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## Melrose8888 (Jan 1, 2017)

What percentage of WS do you think eventually confront themselves, even if it's after 6 days, 6 months, 6 years, on deathbed??

Or once you've cheated, is that it? No way back to a normal mind?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

How do I live with it? Not very easily, to be sure.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I DON’T live with it very well. 3.5 years out and it’s just getting worse. I actually dealt with it better the first year because I didn’t really confront it. It had just happened and if I pretended it didn’t happen it would be like it didn’t happen and everything would be fine. That’s not to say that first year I didn’t feel like a complete turd because I did. I drank too much and too often trying to drown it out. I lied to my husband and I lied to my best friend because if I admitted that I did it, it would’ve really happened and then I’d have to actually face it and have consequences. Life was easier when I could pretend I didn’t do it. When I could pretend I wasn’t a sh*tty person. 

But once I confronted it, came clean. Told my husband, called my best friend and told her the whole story while I bawled my eyes out…that’s when real pain hit. For everyone. My husband, me, even my best friend because her husband had had an affair and me telling her opened her old wounds. I knew then I destroyed my husband, destroyed my family, my friendships. Over the last year and a half the reality of everything and everyone I’ve destroyed has hit hard. My husband has had his own affair and I take the blame of that. Because I feel the physical part of it has been revenge. I feel he wouldn’t have hurt me if I hadn’t hurt him first. At one point I was suicidal. I never attempted suicide, but thoughts of it were in my mind all of the time. Ways to do it, how everyone would be better off without me anyway. Those thoughts still come and go. I still somewhat dream of the day that I can get relief from death, now it’s just that I wonder more when it will happen rather than wanting to cause it myself. My husbands father committed suicide. Had he not, I may have gone through with it. One of the only things that stopped me was not wanting him to lose two people in his life to suicide. I have moments where I just grab my children and hug them because I’m so sorry for what I did, even though they don’t know. I don’t sleep well, I go through periods where I don’t eat well. My brain plays a mantra of “it’s your fault, you’re not a good person” often. 

So how do they live with themselves? I don’t know. I just know I’m not doing a good job of it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi @sokillme, 

I'm sorry to say I don't know you that well or know your story, so I apologize for that. If you don't know me, I am one of those "former disloyals" of which you speak, and I found your post interesting so I'm going to try to answer for you. 



> So there is a post, let's assume it's real, on SI by a man whose SAH wife went to work after 15 years. In a short time "fell in love" with a guy from her job and blew up her life. She has apologized but told him they did everything, and that she was "in love" with him. Now assuming the theories are right and this is all just limerence and aftermath of being a SAH mom so long and having someone new take interest in her, once that dies down how can she live with herself.
> 
> It is very obvious from any outsider that this was the most horrible of choices. Doesn't sound like he was a bad husband it just sounds like she was just another one of these entitled people who was bored. Now what are the chances the guy from work is going to want be a stepfather to 3 kids? So she blew up everyone who was loyal to her in her life and her children for about 3 months of fun and sex.
> 
> Again how do you recover from blowing up your kids and the man you loved for 15 years. The man who gave you children and supported you while you could stay at home and raise them. Presumably, if you are human (though maybe she doesn't have this kind of decency) she will eventually realize the wickedness of her actions. Though I guess a whole lot of them never do. I mean just on a human level to treat another human being like that.


In my instance my exH was the one who cheated on me, and on my D-Day I literally cried for 3 days straight 24 hours a day. Now that marriage had abusive elements to it, and I was nowhere near "healthy" with him, but I did love him and did not want our marriage to end. We had 2 children together and I was in my later 30's and gradually learned A LOT about what healthy love and healthy communication look like, but at the time it gutted me. So to be blunt I would have never guessed in a bazillion years that I would ever cheat. In fact, as a loyal spouse, I pretty much thought like many loyals do here on TAM: I am could not ever cheat, and those who do cheat are "them" not like "me" (or "us" loyals) at all. 

In my second marriage, to Dear Hubby, it was a much healthier marriage but he is a very introverted, private man. We were hit by one tragedy after another and we dealt with grief in two very, VERY different ways. I did not recognize that his silence was his way of coping because it felt like just when I had sorrow and pain, he pushed me away. And I did not start cheating with intent to be unfaithful either--I just thought if he was going to do "his thing" I would simultaneously do "my thing". This turned into having friends of my own who did not know my husband...which turned into having people with whom I had a common interest (that my husband did not have)...which turned thinking positively about the common interest people, and thinking negatively about Dear Hubby...which turned into one PARTICULAR person being interested in the common interest...which turned into the OP being interested in me. 

So to set the stage, it was a slippery slope, not a dive off a cliff...it was the crossing of a thousand little lines in the sand. If you go one inch over every day, it doesn't seem like it's a huge sin in that day, but it's not too long and you're a mile away from being a decent, moral person! 

Now, like the woman in SI I did recover my senses and "come out of the fog"--oddly enough, I think because in my heart of hearts I am an honest person and being so dishonest was making me sick. I mean, my stomach felt like a huge knot, yet despite that it was as if I had blinders on that only allowed me to see ahead. This is why I like the fog as an analogy because it's not a reason AT ALL, but it does sort of describe what it's like--in a way it's like seeing through a tunnel and all you see is "what's ahead" not what's going on around you. However, in my heart of hearts I am very open and honest with myself and others, so for me it was like I had to struggle to keep those blinders on. One day the blinders came off and I could SEE the hurt in my Dear Hubby's eyes; I honestly had not seen it before that day. And that was the day I broke, like the person in SI maybe: I could SEE what my actions were doing and I couldn't do it anymore. So I decided on that day to STOP what I was doing and see if I could rebuild instead of tearing down. 

My Dear Hubby was somewhat like Ella's husband in that he did not hold it over my head like a weapon forever. He MOST DEFINITELY *DID *make me prove change via actions, but he gave me to time to show it--for which I am forever grateful. And he did listen to some of the things I believed hurt me and hurt our marriage--so it wasn't like he took responsibility for the affair, but he did listen non-judgmentally and that helped. He also made some changes himself on things that bettered him as a man and a husband, such as being a more active FRIEND, being involved and present, and letting me into his heart and his struggles and worries. Those things were very helpful to me because it showed me that although I had a LOT of work to do, I wasn't absolutely alone in all this. 

So I think you can see that I had to stop wearing the blinders, I had to actually SEE the horribly massive damage I'd done, I had to end the denial about how much I'd hurt people...and I had to go about not only changing myself to be more accountable, but also looking at the people I'd hurt--give them the help they needed to recover. How do you do that? Well frankly it's hard!! Usually the reason you turn to someone in the first place is because of an unhealthy way to cope with something painful. So now not only is there that painful thing that still needs to be dealt with, there's also all the pain of the damage you did to avoid it in the first place. So my guess is that many/most disloyals don't recover precisely because they won't look their dragon straight in the face!

Now for those who do look their dragon in the face and even name it what it really is ("Adultery"), living with it is extremely hard. It would be roughly the equivalent of living with an amputee or paralyzed person or burned person know that you did that to them! To me, that's roughly what it felt like. Dear Hubby had "burns" over 90% of his body and now my job was to be with him, patiently, lovingly, through all the skin graphs and pain and therapy...and even DO the therapy sometimes so he could get better. And in real life, I know that most loyals wish they could get back to "the way they were before they were burned" but in real life, there will always be scars. And how I got through it was to stop running away from it, experience all the pain--his and mine--and just acknowledge it. Cry a lot! At times I realized I was eating crow and felt sad that I had to eat crow, but I also knew, in reality, that I deserved to eat some until I had proved otherwise!!



> A WW who I wish would come back on here posted about dealing with the aftermath on another thread yesterday. But this person had PPD and got hooked on Xanax, and they didn't even have sex, let alone fall in love. I don't think what she did is in the same universe. Yet the pain she posted, about her life and her as a person being before the affair and now after the affair was visceral. What if this woman in this SI post wakes up to what she did to her husband and family.
> 
> This reminds me of the post on here where the woman has to spend 6 years in prison for drunk driving. To me, if this woman ever realizes the depravity of what she did, it will be worse than that, it will be a lifetime. It's like drunk driving and then waking up with no legs. But then again maybe to do something like that means you will never understand the depths of pain you caused. You very rarely see posts where people who do horrible things like this say how they are racked with guilt. But you see tons of post with the same entitlement that lead to this woman doing this. This is why I have very little faith in R.
> 
> How do you repentant WS live with it? I think it would end up consuming me.


To be honest, it is consuming at the beginning. I think being a spouse who is betrayed is more painful, but being an awake disloyal spouse is VERY darn painful. Hey look how long I've been here on TAM--you think I come here for the great personalities? LOL  Nope I come because I hope to help people get through it and to offer some REALISTIC help to get other disloyals out of this silly "romance dream" baloney that is promoted in movies! It has been seven years or more since my affair, and yet I think about it every day in one way or another. 

I think actually that amputation is a great analogy here. You never, ever get the limb back--it's gone. But 10 years after the incident, you've adapted to a new life and a new way of living and the loss of the limb doesn't mean lack of happiness, NOR does it mean life is over! A person can still wake up, kiss another, make breakfast, share coffee, go to work, be productive, provide for their family, care for children, contribute to household chores, be involved in school and church, and celebrate life events all with only one arm or leg! So do you ever forget? No. Do you change and carry on? Yes.



> I'm reading here a lot about the person thinking about what they did to themselves. What about looking at, living with the people you destroyed. Being the parent whose children's future you have forever changed. I get that you can except that you blew up your own life, but how does a parent look at the kids and live with themselves. I think you have to be in denial. I will never understand this. I don't understand my own father, who I call my best friend. He probably thinks it didn't affect me, but it changed my life. I totally believe I got a late start in life because I lost like 3 years of my life to the aftermath of his affair. I believe I would have been much more successful without losing those 3 years.
> 
> How do they sleep? Yet most of them do. They must not operate the same way. This is really the only explanation that makes sense to me.


Here's where I want to make my comment. I note that you and many who replied to this thread are not disloyal or wayward spouses, so you use the term "they." "How do THEY _____?" you ask. Or "THEY must not operate the same..." and so on. I completely understand that this is a protection mechanism, meaning that you feel safer because you can control being hurt like that again if disloyals/waywards are generically "THEY" and loyals/betrayed are generically "US"--that differentiating means something like "THEY act like that but WE never would...and thus we are safe." 

But are you aware that we are human? Are you aware that actually in many ways we are just like you? I believe we all want to be loved--we all DEEPLY want that! I also believe we all want to be understood and heard. I also believe we all do wrong. What I would love would be if, rather than seeing me as a "THEY"...as a scarlet letter...as any label--if you could see me as a human being who did something deeply wrong and then stopped doing the wrong thing, and from that day forward did the right thing. Now if they didn't stop ... that's another story, right? And if they stopped the wrong thing but didn't start the right thing...again that's another story right?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Hi @sokillmeBut are you aware that we are human? Are you aware that actually in many ways we are just like you? I believe we all want to be loved--we all DEEPLY want that! I also believe we all want to be understood and heard. I also believe we all do wrong. What I would love would be if, rather than seeing me as a "THEY"...as a scarlet letter...as any label--if you could see me as a human being who did something deeply wrong and then stopped doing the wrong thing, and from that day forward did the right thing. Now if they didn't stop ... that's another story, right? And if they stopped the wrong thing but didn't start the right thing...again that's another story right?


I say *they* as in most continue to behave just as selfish as ever, it's good that you didn't. One thing I will say is I am not "like" a cheater. I reject that idea. Am I a sinner have I done things I am not proud of yes. But as I look through my life I can find no area where I have taken long term actions that would hurt another human being in this way. At least not in such a black and white way. For instance I guess you could say if I buy products that may contribute to pain by the person making them in a far off land, or something like that. This may or may not be true. But I will not accept that I have done something on a continued personal magnitude such as cheating. I don't say that with arrogance but I have worked too hard against my own nature to causally or even passively accept the comparison. Am I capable of it if I was left to my own devices. Absolutely and maybe that is where I or someone like me have an advantage over some others. One of the reasons is I grew up in it (see quoted post) so I was very familiar with the consequences of such actions to the ones being abused. 

I don't know what else to say other then that, except your story is troubling. I'm inclined to think that you were not the person you thought you were. I just think you had never been tested. For my way of thinking I would have responded better if you would have written that "I was lonely and I decided I wanted this other man at that moment". I am a person who doesn't believe people are were one way, then slowly changed and then changed back. I think you perceived yourself as one way and found out you weren't and then dedicated your effort to become the person you thought you were. This may be semantics on my part. Is a person their beliefs or their actions. I would say 90% actions, and 10% beliefs. This could be a whole different thread altogether. 

Maybe I think this way because it is easier for me then to believe someone can just change on a dime or even slowly, do to an unfulfilling marriage. The way I see it many, many people are in unfulfilling marriage and just get divorced or live in them. It's just that they have strong enough boundaries and don't cheat. Also does it even matter. If a person is 90% of there actions then what they were before really doesn't matter anyway. This would go for who they were before true repentance and change is made as well. At that point there actions are one of penance and so that is who they are. 

Your story does really reinforce what I thought as far as how to live with ones self. As with my own experience terrible things that happen in your life really never go away, you just live with them. It's possible my response and the general tone is difficult for you. I feel bad that it may cause you discomfort but I can't change the way I feel about it. Having had infidelity and then cheating impact a great part of mine and my siblings emotional life, I am not one to sugar coat my feelings. 

Thanks for tell your story, I think what you are doing here is important, I wish you and your husband luck.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> I think you spend way too much time on SI
> 
> My husband asks me every once in a while if I think he's a better person today than he was in 2010. He works hard at improvement, constantly. Like we all should, really. He (and I) see what he did as something in the past that we both learned from. A HUGE something, yes, but not so huge it's insurmountable. He tried for a while to stop talking about or thinking about what he did - I suppose that's one way of 'living with it'. But of course, since he wanted R with me, that wasn't going to fly. He had to face it head on. He still attends his 12 step group so I know he does still think about it at least that often. He also comes home periodically from his group and asks me stuff about how I am doing.
> 
> I guess the short answer is that he lives with it by doing the opposite of rug sweeping it.


How were you able to put it in the past? I've been trying to do that with my past situation and I'm hoping to to do that with what's going on in my marriage now. She just can't seem to put my EA behind her. It's been about 2 years now, I admitted to everything, apologized up and down and have worked to make myself a better person. Yet every time we get in an argument about anything, it seems to get thrown in my face.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi @sokillme, 

This part really got me thinking, so let's look at it together. 



> I don't know what else to say other then that, except your story is troubling. I'm inclined to think that you were not the person you thought you were. I just think you had never been tested. For my way of thinking I would have responded better if you would have written that "I was lonely and I decided I wanted this other man at that moment". I am a person who doesn't believe people are/were one way, then slowly changed and then changed back. I think you perceived yourself as one way and found out you weren't and then dedicated your effort to become the person you thought you were. This may be semantics on my part. Is a person their beliefs or their actions. I would say 90% actions, and 10% beliefs. This could be a whole different thread altogether.


In my childhood, my father was an active alcoholic and my mother was mentally ill and beat me and my sisters every day. She used a broom handle, a brush, a rolling pin, a tree limb, a belt--anything that was handy really--and she would hit us from our shoulders to our knees on our "back side" until she was exhausted from hitting us so much. So nope, it wasn't a "spanking"--I think I would have been okay with a spanking on the bum with a hand. This was a beating. Also she did little weird torture things like lock me in the unfinished basement overnight (this was Wisconsin so it was not suitable for a child to be in a wet basement with nowhere to lay down or even sit. I used to sit on the stairs all night). So it wasn't a great childhood. 

My first husband was also abusive, and what I've learned subsequently is that of course I picked someone abusive because that was what I "knew." Abuse made some sense to me, and in my mixed up way of thinking love=abuse right? So as life went on with my first husband, I went to IC and faced my demons and began to see that our interaction was not healthy; however he did NOT want the dynamic to change. He was diagnosed bipolar and BPD, so he was a tough one to deal with and I think he cheated because he constantly sought female attention and validation, and here I was at home telling him we needed to interact differently. So he stayed the same, and I grew. 

My second husband is not abusive at all--we have a pretty stable, loving, healthy relationship. Now, I have endured death grief in my life, and clearly I had childhood issues and lost a marriage. So I think I had some experiences that "tested" me. BUT before I went to IC with my first husband I would have said we had a happy family and a good marriage "That will never happen to us" kind of thing, and what I know now is that was primarily an illusion. I WANTED a happy family so I did not see the red flags. Also I learned that "it can happen to anyone any time" and there is no way to affairproof your marriage except that you can make the odds in your favor by continuously working at being a better self and better spouse. So you can't "guarantee" but you can help the chances 

I kind of understand why it would make more sense if I said 'I wanted OM in the moment' but that wouldn't honestly be true. I'll be blunt. I lost a baby and then after that found out I'd never have another as things were medically "wrong." I felt like my purpose as a woman was just GONE. And what I longed for was for my husband to somehow demonstrate that I was still wanted for ME...not just my baby parts. Make sense? It's silly but that was how it felt to me. So instead he did his quiet, processing grief-style and I interpreted that as "now that you can't have babies I don't really want you at all." Now you can see there were two very major errors going on: a) I didn't know him well enough to know he was grieving and b) I misinterpreted and did not check my interpretation. So I just felt really lost, and I didn't really want any other person--that didn't enter my mind why would it? But suddenly this other person wanted ME. 

So I think in my childhood and first marriage I really was honest and pretty dedicated. I've always been the type to be a one-man woman--don't even date two guys at once because that's not how I'm wired. And I ESPECIALLY do not like lying because it's so freaking confusing! Just lay the cards on the table so we all know where we stand. 

In my newer marriage, I think you may have a point--the untested grief was not something I coped with very well, and that's where I had a timeframe where I became who I am not. And then, again you're right, after the blinders fell off my eyes, I did work hard to become who I am again and to take the time to demonstrate that is who I am. 



> Your story does really reinforce what I thought as far as how to live with ones self. As with my own experience terrible things that happen in your life really never go away, you just live with them. It's possible my response and the general tone is difficult for you. I feel bad that it may cause you discomfort but I can't change the way I feel about it. Having had infidelity and then cheating impact a great part of mine and my siblings emotional life, I am not one to sugar coat my feelings.
> 
> Thanks for tell your story, I think what you are doing here is important, I wish you and your husband luck.


I'll be completely honest with you @sokillme--I find your responses and general tone sad but I'm not surprised and I know it's honestly how you think and feel so I don't have nearly as much trouble dealing with it as I do with threads like Ella's "Advice to Waywards." That one is so clearly still centering on Self and encouraging the continuing of entitlement that I can barely speak, and I'd like to! I don't know where to start! There's just so much feelings-based decision making that it's like wading through mud, and I think it's going to do a sad mis-service to most disloyals. My point is that your reactions make some sense to me and my hope is that after speaking together with some truly former waywards you'd be able to at least understand somewhat.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Hi @sokillmeAlso I learned that "it can happen to anyone any time" and there is no way to affairproof your marriage


I agree but only to the point where there are two people in the marriage so you have no control. I will never cheat, there are a few reasons but one is because I will never even put myself in the position to feel tempted to cheat. I have no close female friends besides my wife or siblings. The rest are work acquaintances, and our relationships are the shallowest of connections. I don't drink to access and in the rare times I do over do it I am with my wife or my friends. 

I have a good solid small circle of male friends who feel the same as I do, I would expect and have told them to punch me in the face if I even consider it, and I would do the same (not kidding by the way). We are also close enough having basically grown up together that we discuss our lives so there is not much hidden. Disappointments are discussed. I was raised around all woman and my mother is what most people would call a master communicator. So at 13 years old I was asking these guy friends what there feelings were on things. They learned to communicate, because I was communicating with them. This has served all of us well as we can talk about how much we hate Tom Bradey or how my one friends step son just broke up with his two timing girlfriend and what he must be feeling and how to steer him in the right direction. We know each other well enough to know something is wrong. This is a tremendous advantage to me I admit. I was very blessed in this way. But I am also fiercely loyal to them. 

I am absolutely committed to the idea that if I am tempted to cheat (I don't me attracted to another women) then that would be the time to really reassess my marriage. I believe that if you are really struggling at that point that there is a good possibility that your marriage is already over. A marriage that doesn't move forward is dead. I am sure that would cause terrible pain to my wife, but that pain is preferable then the pain of betrayal. Have gone through both I can attest to that fact. 



Affaircare said:


> I kind of understand why it would make more sense if I said 'I wanted OM in the moment' but that wouldn't honestly be true. I'll be blunt. I lost a baby and then after that found out I'd never have another as things were medically "wrong." I felt like my purpose as a woman was just GONE. And what I longed for was for my husband to somehow demonstrate that I was still wanted for ME...not just my baby parts. Make sense? It's silly but that was how it felt to me. So instead he did his quiet, processing grief-style and I interpreted that as "now that you can't have babies I don't really want you at all." Now you can see there were two very major errors going on: a) I didn't know him well enough to know he was grieving and b) I misinterpreted and did not check my interpretation. So I just felt really lost, and I didn't really want any other person--that didn't enter my mind why would it? But suddenly this other person wanted ME.


This is where you and I see marriage differently and probably why we have a disconnect. It sounds like you are saying your husband didn't react the way you expected and you weren't getting what you wanted from him so you found it elsewhere or it found you. I find this type of sentiment in direct contrast to the idea that you were not the type of person who would cheat before you did. Forgive me but I believe it is just this kind of thinking that permeates cheaters on this and other boards. It is this thinking that leads people to easily succumb to infidelity. 

In my mind the bottom line and the essence of a good marriage and love is giving. In the sense that when someone marries it should be done as an act of giving ones self to another person. Getting or even expecting (beyond being treated with respect and honor) should not be a part of the equation. Now this is very hard to do and no one is capable of it. But it should at least be acknowledge that that is the ideal to strive for, with that in mind the idea that I am not getting all you deserve is not much of a factor. At least not to the point where I wouldn't end the marriage first. My marriage is about me actively giving my life to my wife until such time as she no longer wants it, or respects it. If I feel unsatified that's on me. My choices are to find it within myself or end the marriage. But if my motives for the marriage are for her then who cares if I feel unsatisfied in that respect. 

The other thing that has always kept me in check is from a very young age I learned to get my self worth, self-esteem or whatever you call it from my personal honor. This is kind of a trick I stumbled on and in doing so I gamed my own behavior. In a sense that doing the right thing is easy because it is done for selfish reasons. Not to say I haven't failed a lot. Never in cheating though. Other ****ty stuff. 

I suspect though this is why I come off as strident and probably arrogant to some on here. There is truth in this. I am kind of a **** at times. Especially about this stuff. I find I am starting to grow tired of posting about this stuff as I seems to me there are no real answers. Trying to find them is a frustrating waste. Even in understanding doesn't really solve anything. I have been a part of a lot of philosophical talks on here and I am not really sure what the point has been. If it is a problem without a true answer then maybe we are all just spinning our wheels.

Anyway just my two cents.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

sokillme said:


> I always see this as to the WS love doesn't really have the same kind meaning as the non-cheater. Same with sex. You see many BS say how could they do this to the sanctity of our marriage bed. Thing is, to your WS there never was any sanctity. You were just someone they slept with. Like having a coffee with. They just made you think they felt like you because if you knew you wouldn't be as attracted to them. *This is why I don't buy the idea that someone who has had many sexual partners can all of a sudden see some sanctity in sex. How does a piece of paper change any of that.* (I know I will get killed for this).


I've spent two days trying to think of a way to explain this to you and I may have finally found it! 

Think of lighting a candle. We've all lighted candles, yes? No matter the reason for lighting the candle, the procedure is pretty much the same. Yet, lighting a candle to make your kitchen smell nice before you have guests over is very different than lighting a prayer candle. Even though you've lighted 1,000 kitchen candles, it doesn't diminish the sacredness of the act of lighting a prayer candle, does it? Why? A person lighting a candle so the kitchen smells like pine trees is in a different place mentally and spiritually than a person lighting a candle as part of religious ritual. Even though the two acts are the same, the intention and meaning are not.

I became sexually active at 15 and I met DH at 24. In those 9 years, I had 31 sex partners, not including DH. Sex with those men was like lighting a kitchen candle. It was practical in nature. It wasn't intended to be a bonding experience or some kind of mystical connection. It was purely for pleasure. 

Sex with DH is like lighting a sacred prayer candle. Even when we're having screaming porn star sex and emotions are far from the forefront of our thoughts, there's still this incredible closeness and intimacy that's hard to describe. Sex with DH, even when done purely for the sensual pleasure of the act, is different than what I did with other men. My intentions are different with him, the meaning is different with him, I am in a different mental and spiritual place with I am with him. It's meant to be bonding and to forge an intimate, mystical, connection, so it does.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I've spent two days trying to think of a way to explain this to you and I may have finally found it!
> 
> Think of lighting a candle. We've all lighted candles, yes? No matter the reason for lighting the candle, the procedure is pretty much the same. Yet, lighting a candle to make your kitchen smell nice before you have guests over is very different than lighting a prayer candle. Even though you've lighted 1,000 kitchen candles, it doesn't diminish the sacredness of the act of lighting a prayer candle, does it? Why? A person lighting a candle so the kitchen smells like pine trees is in a different place mentally and spiritually than a person lighting a candle as part of religious ritual. Even though the two acts are the same, the intention and meaning are not.
> 
> ...


First I don't think people who cheat ever have the feeling that the candle is mystical. What's even scarier is the thought that they do and then lose that feeling so they think well might as well light some more candles again. I guess there are some who do that too. But overall I was talking about is, don't think because you feel this way your partner does. You were mistaken to do that in the first place before they cheated. They have shown you this is not the case. BS waste time thinking, will now what was once sacred is no longer. This was never true, you are crying over something that never was, or never will be. Better to just give up on the notion that you will ever think the same way on this or have a connection. You never had it to begin with and you never will. 

Now on expand on your post. My question would be you feel this way, what does your husband think? He probably feels the same way as you do. Then this really isn't a problem, people have different ways of thinking about this. However, someone like me who has only had sex with people I love would have to accept that your thinking about sex just doesn't fit with mine (it can be done but you must at least acknowledge it.). The problem is people like me see sex like the matchbook, not a candle. You only get so many matches many just only want to use one. Even with me when I was young if I were to meet someone who was waiting for marriage then my think would probably be a problem for them. So even though to your the candle is sacred it's still a candle. Even though mine is a matchbook, it's not a flair (can only be lit once). This is not me judging you. This is me saying people see it differently.

Now marrying someone like you I may fear that if the marriage is bad the candle would lose it's mystical connection and then just go back to being a candle, like any other. In that case, I think some just try to find another sacred candle. Whereas, if you think like me I only got a few matches it's a different kind of loss. Part of is is the idea that sex itself is sacred not just having sex with a special person. 

So my overall point is yes to you sex with your husband is different, but I think your lifestyle shows that your thinking and my thinking are different too. Again I am not judging you or saying you are wrong to think that. It's your life. I am only saying this is something people need to think about when they enter relationships with other people. You and I think differently about sex and maybe even what is sacred, again a piece of paper isnt' going to change that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

How do muggers live with it?

How to do boiler room conmen live with it?

Computer fraudsters?

Must be a particular mindset?


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## Bloodinthecut (Feb 14, 2017)

sokillme said:


> First I don't think people who cheat ever have the feeling that the candle is mystical. What's even scarier is the thought that they do and then lose that feeling so they think well might as well light some more candles again. I guess there are some who do that too. But overall I was talking about is, don't think because you feel this way your partner does. You were mistaken to do that in the first place before they cheated. They have shown you this is not the case. BS waste time thinking, will now what was once sacred is no longer. This was never true, you are crying over something that never was, or never will be. Better to just give up on the notion that you will ever think the same way on this or have a connection. You never had it to begin with and you never will.
> 
> Now on expand on your post. My question would be you feel this way, what does your husband think? He probably feels the same way as you do. Then this really isn't a problem, people have different ways of thinking about this. However, someone like me who has only had sex with people I love would have to accept that your thinking about sex just doesn't fit with mine (it can be done but you must at least acknowledge it.). The problem is people like me see sex like the matchbook, not a candle. You only get so many matches many just only want to use one. Even with me when I was young if I were to meet someone who was waiting for marriage then my think would probably be a problem for them. So even though to your the candle is sacred it's still a candle. Even though mine is a matchbook, it's not a flair (can only be lit once). This is not me judging you. This is me saying people see it differently.
> 
> ...


 @sokillme I have to agree with this. But I hope it's not only the woman's side that you mean this for men as well. I had said in my post that I could not separate love from sex. This is what always kept pulling me back during my affair. Why I did not go further into it. I just couldn't. I couldn't go there. Now for the OM, he was trying to schedule a "meet-up" after our first lunch. Now, not sitting here clutching my pearls after all I was a married woman, crossing boundaries and had just popped kissed this guy. But I was taken aback when he called me the next day and said let's meet up next week (hinting at a hotel). I told him "are you kidding me?" It was very scary to see how lightly this man took sex. How could you just jump in bed with anyone? Granted my situation was different and I was engaging in E.A that when to P.A. when we kissed so he might assume that was next...? Still, I was taken aback. Would most "cheaters" jump at this chance?


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## Bloodinthecut (Feb 14, 2017)

ETA: I also don't believe that a woman engaging in X month relationship with AP and having sex is not in love. I have met many women in my 29 years of life and I can barely count in one hand the women that can have casual sex like a man (look I am NOT saying that they are not out there but its more of an exception not the rule- I could get killed for this). Usually, the 
"loving" wife that is having an illicit sexual affair with OM, is most likely very in love and or infatuated. CAM42's situation comes to my mind. 

The decision that is made when the chips are down is just that...did they pick you because the chips were down?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Bloodinthecut said:


> @sokillme I have to agree with this. But I hope it's not only the woman's side that you mean this for men as well. I had said in my post that I could not separate love from sex. This is what always kept pulling me back during my affair. Why I did not go further into it. I just couldn't. I couldn't go there. Now for the OM, he was trying to schedule a "meet-up" after our first lunch. Now, not sitting here clutching my pearls after all I was a married woman, crossing boundaries and had just popped kissed this guy. But I was taken aback when he called me the next day and said let's meet up next week (hinting at a hotel). I told him "are you kidding me?" It was very scary to see how lightly this man took sex. How could you just jump in bed with anyone? Granted my situation was different and I was engaging in E.A that when to P.A. when we kissed so he might assume that was next...? Still, I was taken aback. Would most "cheaters" jump at this chance?


I used to think, my thinking (I need to love someone to have sex with them) was rare for a man. Now I think my thinking like this is rare for anyone. So, of course I think this holds true no matter gender.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> How do muggers live with it?
> 
> How to do boiler room conmen live with it?
> 
> ...



And yet lots fight me when I say cheaters don't feel empathy the way that non-cheaters do. People say I am dehumanizing them, but in a sense, I am kind of giving them a pass. How much worse would the be if they DO feel empathy and still do it. The problem lies with the fact that if this is true that then the danger of staying with them is revealed.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> How do muggers live with it?
> 
> How to do boiler room conmen live with it?
> 
> ...


You're generalizing.

Most muggers mug _strangers_.

Most con men con _strangers_.

Most fraudsters fraud _strangers_.

It's easier to live w/ having wronged someone if you never see or interact w/ that person.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> How were you able to put it in the past? I've been trying to do that with my past situation and I'm hoping to to do that with what's going on in my marriage now. She just can't seem to put my EA behind her. It's been about 2 years now, I admitted to everything, apologized up and down and have worked to make myself a better person. Yet every time we get in an argument about anything, it seems to get thrown in my face.


2 years isn't that long. At 2 years I was still triggering regularly. Are you two in MC?



Affaircare said:


> I'll be completely honest with you sokillme--I find your responses and general tone sad but I'm not surprised and I know it's honestly how you think and feel so I don't have nearly as much trouble dealing with it as I do with threads like Ella's "Advice to Waywards." That one is so clearly still centering on Self and encouraging the continuing of entitlement that I can barely speak, and I'd like to! I don't know where to start! There's just so much feelings-based decision making that it's like wading through mud, and I think it's going to do a sad mis-service to most disloyals. My point is that your reactions make some sense to me and my hope is that after speaking together with some truly former waywards you'd be able to at least understand somewhat.


I agree with this SO MUCH. That post by Ella is very disturbing and I wish it would just be deleted. It is NOT an example of the way TAMmers think at all, and the fact she just keeps ON and ON with the wrongness - I had to stop posting or I was going to say something bannable sooner or later. It's SO awful. But @sokillme, your posts aren't like that. You are at least willing to listen (usually) but I also get the sense you are kind of wallowing right now, looking for answers.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> You're generalizing.
> 
> Most muggers mug _strangers_.
> 
> ...


A lot of fraudsters also target their family members.

And *of course *I was generalising. Because I was making a general point that some people are comfortable with living with themselves when they do bad things to other people.

However, the more specific point you make could well be correct. The ability to compartmentalise/ignore the pain caused to loved ones might well be 'worse' than that of people who target random strangers.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> How were you able to put it in the past? I've been trying to do that with my past situation and I'm hoping to to do that with what's going on in my marriage now. She just can't seem to put my EA behind her. It's been about 2 years now, I admitted to everything, apologized up and down and have worked to make myself a better person. Yet every time we get in an argument about anything, it seems to get thrown in my face.


Because she no longer trusts you. That's the sad consequence of the EA. She may have forgiven you, but she isn't able to forget. She shouldn't forget. Neither should you. This doesn't mean that you need to beat yourself up over it, at some point, she has to come to terms with if she is going to stay married to you, she needs to learn to trust you again. But, that's where she is with it, I think...she doesn't trust you.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Because she no longer trusts you. That's the sad consequence of the EA. She may have forgiven you, but she isn't able to forget. She shouldn't forget. Neither should you. This doesn't mean that you need to beat yourself up over it, at some point, she has to come to terms with if she is going to stay married to you, she needs to learn to trust you again. But, that's where she is with it, I think...she doesn't trust you.


Further to this, I think trust is a continuum, not an all-or-nothing thing. When you cheat, the needle goes to zero. Past zero even into negative territory. As the WS proves over and over they're worth it and truly remorseful, the needle starts to move. It gets back to 0, then starts to climb into positive territory. Over time - many years - it can even approach 100 again.

Mine isn't there yet. I don't know that it ever will be. With anyone. I honestly do not know anyone that I trust 100%. The closest person is probably my dad, maybe my daughter, but even they aren't at 100. There's always a chance, however minuscule, that they're going to betray me in some way at some point. So I am wary.

As for my husband, he's at about 95% right now. His number climbed steeply over years 2-4. After year 2 I decided he was doing pretty well in the R department. If I was to split with him for whatever reason and find another relationship, they'd probably start out at about 50.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Further to this, I think trust is a continuum, not an all-or-nothing thing. When you cheat, the needle goes to zero. Past zero even into negative territory. As the WS proves over and over they're worth it and truly remorseful, the needle starts to move. It gets back to 0, then starts to climb into positive territory. Over time - many years - it can even approach 100 again.
> 
> Mine isn't there yet. I don't know that it ever will be. With anyone. I honestly do not know anyone that I trust 100%. The closest person is probably my dad, maybe my daughter, but even they aren't at 100. There's always a chance, however minuscule, that they're going to betray me in some way at some point. So I am wary.
> 
> As for my husband, he's at about 95% right now. His number climbed steeply over years 2-4. After year 2 I decided he was doing pretty well in the R department. If I was to split with him for whatever reason and find another relationship, they'd probably start out at about 50.


I'm a guarded person, too...much better but still a tiny piece of my heart that is guarded. lol I understand that what you have gone through, it makes total sense.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

*Deidre* said:


> *Because she no longer trusts you*. That's the sad consequence of the EA...


Damn right and rightfully so.



*Deidre* said:


> ... at some point, she has to come to terms with if she is going to stay married to you, *she needs to learn to trust you again.*


Learn to Trust again? Seriously? When the panties hit the floor... Trust goes out the window.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

RWB said:


> Damn right and rightfully so.
> 
> 
> 
> Learn to Trust again? Seriously? When the panties hit the floor... Trust goes out the window.


lol well, how can a marriage last without trust?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> And yet lots fight me when I say cheaters don't feel empathy the way that non-cheaters do. People say I am dehumanizing them, but in a sense, I am kind of giving them a pass. How much worse would the be if they DO feel empathy and still do it. The problem lies with the fact that if this is true that then the danger of staying with them is revealed.


But cheaters aren't BORN cheaters, right?

They become predisposed to become cheaters through circumstance, intellect {or lack thereof}, socialization and maybe even coincidence {oops, my genitals fell into your genitals}. 

But ultimately they became "cheaters" by, ummm, cheating.

In other words, were these cheaters unempathetic inhuman vertebrates all along, even as children or could it actually have something to do with the act of adultery {including all the sin leading up to it} that makes them these wayward thinking unempathetic inhuman reprobates so different from everyone else?

If they weren't born a cheater but became one, somehow, couldn't they just as well revert back and become a equally empathetic, compassionate former cheater one day who despises waywards and wayward thinkers just like the rest of us?


I believe it takes years of sin and wayward thinking to make a cheater. They don't happen overnight. The slide into adultery is almost always well greased. I think most married people are vulnerable but I acknowledge that some are more susceptible than others and/or it's just not their struggle in life {low sex-drive persons might be one example}. Back to the point, I think, likewise, the gift of repentance takes time also, but it works in reverse to mold and re-develop/instill character and make them better. My wife and I are both better people than before her affair and our marriage is actually significantly better and more intimate than it would have otherwise been. 

We "live with it" because we don't feel entitled to a perfect life and feel so very blessed with the one we've been provided, warts and all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> But cheaters aren't BORN cheaters, right?
> 
> They become predisposed to become cheaters through circumstance, intellect {or lack thereof}, socialization and maybe even coincidence {oops, my genitals fell into your genitals}.
> 
> ...


Not born grow into. I believe it's about 60-40 nature-nurture. I believe once you hit the age of 25 your morals are pretty much set. You can change them but it takes a lot of work. I get that you won't like this. I am also convinced that you have my user stats bookmarked and you scan them every day. :x


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> 2 years isn't that long. At 2 years I was still triggering regularly. Are you two in MC?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this SO MUCH. That post by Ella is very disturbing and I wish it would just be deleted. It is NOT an example of the way TAMmers think at all, and the fact she just keeps ON and ON with the wrongness - I had to stop posting or I was going to say something bannable sooner or later. It's SO awful. But @sokillme, your posts aren't like that. You are at least willing to listen (usually) but I also get the sense you are kind of wallowing right now, looking for answers.


Wow and you used to hate me, which is hard because you and I agree on much. (what's your baseball team by the way?)

I like Ella very much, remember she has had a very sheltered life. She is disabled and was protected. I really believe much of her posting is done from innocence. My thinking and what I posted in her thread, which was kind of a eureka moment for me, is that she equates the healing she got while recovering from being abused to the healing WS needs from cheating. Since she conflates the two, for her, being abused was a part of the affair, and people wanting to help her was also part of her recovery from the affair. She wants to do this for others, but the helping and the healing she got had to do with her abuse. The affair is something different all together and is not applicable. My problem is with jld who basically always pops up to add to the disconnect. She wants to learn and she will. 

Wallowing is a kind of right. I want a solution, but I know I won't find one. The thinking is so foreign to me, yet my own father thought this way. I want to understand. The aftermath of the story I posted at the beginning of this thread is like a bomb going off in the middle of a family. The WS is like a suicide bomber. I guess I am not built that way. I fear I am turning into the guy who is on the sure yelling at the tide trying to stop it from coming in.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Further to this, I think trust is a continuum, not an all-or-nothing thing. When you cheat, the needle goes to zero. Past zero even into negative territory. As the WS proves over and over they're worth it and truly remorseful, the needle starts to move. It gets back to 0, then starts to climb into positive territory. Over time - many years - it can even approach 100 again.
> 
> Mine isn't there yet. I don't know that it ever will be. With anyone. I honestly do not know anyone that I trust 100%. The closest person is probably my dad, maybe my daughter, but even they aren't at 100. There's always a chance, however minuscule, that they're going to betray me in some way at some point. So I am wary.
> 
> As for my husband, he's at about 95% right now. His number climbed steeply over years 2-4. After year 2 I decided he was doing pretty well in the R department. If I was to split with him for whatever reason and find another relationship, they'd probably start out at about 50.


But is 100% trust really a good thing anyway, or even realistic? I mean even just normal human foibles can cause the people we love to hurt us, sometime very badly. Even if it totally passive. 

After being cheated on (I know Quality we weren't married and it was my own fault because I had premarital sex, you think I should shut up now), anyway after being cheated on I started to separate trust from dependence. I don't think many people do this or get this concept. 

I see it like this, I trust my wife, but I am no longer dependent on anyone for anything. I hope to never be dependent on anyone to the extent I was before. So if she should cheat, I would in the end, be fine. Not saying I wouldn't be devastated but I would still survive and thrive. I am not dependent on her for my happiness, sense of worth or self or anything like that. This is obviously harder if you are sick or old.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sokillme said:


> This is where you and I see marriage differently and probably why we have a disconnect. It sounds like you are saying your husband didn't react the way you expected and you weren't getting what you wanted from him so you found it elsewhere or it found you. I find this type of sentiment in direct contrast to the idea that you were not the type of person who would cheat before you did. Forgive me but I believe it is just this kind of thinking that permeates cheaters on this and other boards. It is this thinking that leads people to easily succumb to infidelity.
> 
> In my mind the bottom line and the essence of a good marriage and love is giving. In the sense that when someone marries it should be done as an act of giving ones self to another person. Getting or even expecting (beyond being treated with respect and honor) should not be a part of the equation. Now this is very hard to do and no one is capable of it. But it should at least be acknowledge that that is the ideal to strive for, with that in mind the idea that I am not getting all you deserve is not much of a factor. At least not to the point where I wouldn't end the marriage first. My marriage is about me actively giving my life to my wife until such time as she no longer wants it, or respects it. If I feel unsatified that's on me. My choices are to find it within myself or end the marriage. But if my motives for the marriage are for her then who cares if I feel unsatisfied in that respect.


Oh you know what's cool, @sokillme? Before I had my affair I did not see marriage this way. I thought of it as "two halves becoming a whole" or "now I'll always have my needs met," right? But I still had a lot of growing to do! That's a portion of what I learned after my affair--that love is a) not a feeling, and b) not about receiving. It's as if the movies and books have it exactly backward, actually. REAL love is an action (how you treat someone) and it is about GIVING. So the vow isn't "Wow I get to have someone love me all my life!"...it's "I promise to spend my whole life learning about YOU and meeting YOUR needs and learning what means love to YOU and then giving you that." The ideal would be that both parties do that, but nowhere in the promise does it say "If you do this I'll do that." It just says "I will love only you." 

So I admit you're right, and now I've come around to thinking more like what you've described. 



AtMyEnd said:


> How were you able to put it in the past? I've been trying to do that with my past situation and I'm hoping to to do that with what's going on in my marriage now. She just can't seem to put my EA behind her. It's been about 2 years now, I admitted to everything, apologized up and down and have worked to make myself a better person. Yet every time we get in an argument about anything, it seems to get thrown in my face.


Hmmm, @AtMyEnd...this one is a hard one. See in order to help me understand things, I like to create an analogy or an image of it so I can relate, and the image I use of the affair with my loyal spouse is that he rightfully has a sword over my head. I was the "criminal" if you will, and I took things that were not mine but his, and hurt him in the process of stealing his things...so he has the right to demand and exact recompense for the damage done. He has the "legal" right to compensation! Now some betrayed spouses seek compensation via hurting their disloyal back (aka "hurt them as bad as they hurt you"). Some seek recompense via revenge in any number of ways. Some seek to be paid back by holding the affair as their "trump card" (no, this is not a political commentary so don't go there! LOL) meaning that they can behave badly, be controlling or be abusive and then pull out the ace in the hole that instantly wins them every fight! They keep the sword over your head because it is their right to do so--YOU OWE THEM. 

But in order for there to be a rebuilding, there really cannot be one seeking vengeance with the other has a sword over their head. For the rebuilding to start, there has to be TRUE REPENTANCE from the disloyal first, that is demonstrated without fail that they are open and transparent and acting in a trust WORTHY way. Then there has to be a point at which the loyal says, "I am ready to put down the sword from above your head and never, EVER pick it up again." That is what forgiveness is: releasing your legal right to compensation for a debt owed to you. 



sokillme said:


> I like Ella very much, remember she has had a very sheltered life. She is disabled and was protected. I really believe much of her posting is done from innocence. My thinking and what I posted in her thread, which was kind of a eureka moment for me, is that she equates the healing she got while recovering from being abused to the healing WS needs from cheating. Since she conflates the two, for her, being abused was a part of the affair, and people wanting to help her was also part of her recovery from the affair. She wants to do this for others, but the helping and the healing she got had to do with her abuse. The affair is something different all together and is not applicable. My problem is with jld who basically always pops up to add to the disconnect. She wants to learn and she will.


To be blunt, I like Ella a lot as well. What I sense from her is more like "living in a romantic book" than being able to identify and live in reality. In other words, I think her intent is based in good, but real life just isn't unicorns and rainbows, and real love isn't only "moonlight feelings." Thus, telling someone who just spent time focusing on themselves while destroying their family that "it's okay for you to have feelings too and have your spouse think of you too" is ill-timed. The lesson that is harder to learn after an affair is to STOP thinking of yourself, and think of others! 

Of course I have "moonlight feelings" now and then, but to my mind, feelings come and go like the wind! Shoot they can change if you're hungry, tired or it's a time of month, and thus feelings aren't really solid and stable enough for me to base decisions on and base a LIFE on! I'd rather have something that has a foundation and then build feelings on that. Then again that's my opinion and the way I operate my life. 

@Hope1964, I agree with your thoughts overall--I just thought for me I'd stay out of it. I don't know how to address thinking that is so fluffy and romance-based that it's illogical! LOL



sokillme said:


> Wallowing is a kind of right. I want a solution, but I know I won't find one. The thinking is so foreign to me, yet my own father thought this way. I want to understand. The aftermath of the story I posted at the beginning of this thread is like a bomb going off in the middle of a family. The WS is like a suicide bomber. I guess I am not built that way. I fear I am turning into the guy who is on the sure yelling at the tide trying to stop it from coming in.


So, @sokillme, oddly enough here's an answer--I don't know if it is THE answer you're looking for! How do we live with it? Well, we are not dead yet and so we breathe in and breathe out. Some days we go minute-by-minute because the pain is intense and yet it is just pain and pain passes. So you accept that you hurt, and you live in that moment. Other days you learn something new and try new skills and new ways of living and find that the present is actually better than the past was. So you accept that you are happy, and you live in that moment. Most days you live life and purposefully, deliberately go about your life in a way that protects your marriage from your own self. So you accept that you have the potential to really mess up, and you accept that you are a human being prone to error, and you put up protective barriers to help you stay on the "straight and narrow." And you find the roses on that road. 

That's how you live with it. You could sit around and wallow that "you lose your arm" and in real life you'll never have your arm again--it's gone. Or you can choose to say "Well I have another one. I will figure out how to live with one arm" and you just do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Oh you know what's cool, @sokillme? Before I had my affair I did not see marriage this way. I thought of it as "two halves becoming a whole" or "now I'll always have my needs met," right? But I still had a lot of growing to do! That's a portion of what I learned after my affair--that love is a) not a feeling, and b) not about receiving. It's as if the movies and books have it exactly backward, actually. REAL love is an action (how you treat someone) and it is about GIVING. So the vow isn't "Wow I get to have someone love me all my life!"...it's "I promise to spend my whole life learning about YOU and meeting YOUR needs and learning what means love to YOU and then giving you that." The ideal would be that both parties do that, but nowhere in the promise does it say "If you do this I'll do that." It just says "I will love only you."
> 
> So I admit you're right, and now I've come around to thinking more like what you've described.


Yeah that two haves becoming whole thing is a crock, when two haves are brought together all you get is two dysfunctional people in a bad marriage. Only you can make yourself a whole person. In other words if you have issues no one else can solve them for you. People can help, but you have to do it. Expecting someone else to do it for you is like trying to get out of the work. It's like looking for a cheat when the only way to win is to do the hard work. 



> So, @sokillme, oddly enough here's an answer--I don't know if it is THE answer you're looking for! How do we live with it? Well, we are not dead yet and so we breathe in and breathe out. Some days we go minute-by-minute because the pain is intense and yet it is just pain and pain passes. So you accept that you hurt, and you live in that moment. Other days you learn something new and try new skills and new ways of living and find that the present is actually better than the past was. So you accept that you are happy, and you live in that moment. Most days you live life and purposefully, deliberately go about your life in a way that protects your marriage from your own self. * So you accept that you have the potential to really mess up, and you accept that you are a human being prone to error, and you put up protective barriers to help you stay on the "straight and narrow." * And you find the roses on that road.
> 
> That's how you live with it. You could sit around and wallow that "you lose your arm" and in real life you'll never have your arm again--it's gone. Or you can choose to say "Well I have another one. I will figure out how to live with one arm" and you just do.


Did you not get the bold part before? I ask because from my last post you see that I have put in a lot of buffers in my life to protect me and my wife from my potential to really mess up. I think part of the reason I did that is because of who my father is and his string of infidelities. I truly believe some of this stuff is in the genes. So think of it like a child of an alcoholic who never has one drink for fear of liking it too much. Now that is an analogy at the extreme, but I do wonder if I have some of the wanderlust my father has. Though maybe everyone has this and the difference is who acts on it. I don't know. 

What's interesting is you are kind of doing now what I am doing without having any history of cheating. The difference between us is you are constantly living in the moment. There have only been a few times in my life where I lived like that. The aftermath of being cheated on was one of them. It's exhausting. How long can you live like that? One was when my Dad left and they got divorced, there was about 3 years where my Mother was not able to be fully emotionally there, and I had to get used to seeing my Dad once a week and on the weekends, that was hard because I was very young and spent a lot of time alone. I had to deal with all of stuff kids do, bulling, struggling with school work, learning how to thrive socially with not as much help as I needed. Plus I was also dealing with the loss of my family. Kids feel it just as much as adults do, and they have no agency at all in it. Another time was the aftermath of an assault I experienced. The living in the moment as a result of the PTSD contributed to my eventual soft breakdown. All of those time though were because of something someone "did" to me. Not because of what I "did" to others. 

How does posting on here help that. I would think it exacerbates it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I see it like this, I trust my wife, but I am no longer dependent on anyone for anything. I hope to never be dependent on anyone to the extent I was before. So if she should cheat, I would in the end, be fine. Not saying I wouldn't be devastated but I would still survive and thrive. I am not dependent on her for my happiness, sense of worth or self or anything like that. This is obviously harder if you are sick or old.


This could actually be indicative of an intimacy issue/barrier. It's actually a lot like I thought prior to my wife's affair {which, IMO, contributed to her vulnerability}. I was independent and distanced myself emotionally expecting my wife and I both to be responsible for our own happiness. My wife was quite happy with that while dating because it was familiar considering her abused background and emotionally distant father. I wasn't abuse and came from a happy home where problems really didn't exist so I was stoic in the face of my wife's emotional needs because I had no idea what I was supposed to do about them. I was happy and just wanted/expected her to be happy too. I've since learned a lot about relationships, marriage and what is the expected of a God fearing husband {how I am supposed to fulfill the vows I made to God as they relate to my wife}. Interdependence is way to go. 



from Wikipedia said:


> Interdependence is the mutual reliance between two or more groups. This concept differs from the reliance in a dependent relationship, whereby some members are dependent and some are not. There can be various degrees of interdependence.
> 
> In an interdependent relationship, participants may be emotionally, economically, ecologically and/or morally reliant on and responsible to each other. An interdependent relationship can arise between two or more cooperative autonomous participants (e.g. a co-op). Some people advocate freedom or independence as the ultimate good; others do the same with devotion to one's family, community, or society. Interdependence can be a common ground between these aspirations.


Not a very in-depth article, but it's short:



from Psychology Today:"Independence and Interdependence - What's Best for Love" said:


> Some people are very independent in relationships, others are dependent, and a number of people are co-dependent (which means they put aside their own well-being to maintain a relationship with another). The healthiest way we can interact with those close to us is by being truly interdependent.Jul 1, 2013
> LINK



A couple of relevant questions I have for @Affaircare

1. how did rationalize and justify having an affair when you were a marriage counselor before, during and after such event and, as such, should have been much more aware of the pitfalls, risks and devastation of taking a wayward path? 

2. Do you have any idea why are so many marriage counselors and relationship experts cheaters? Gottman, David Olsen, Dr. Robert Glover, Peck and probably 75% of every marriage counselor I've ever met or come across {I advise anyone I coach to ask their professional counselors about their personal marriages, whether they are divorced ~ if so, why and can they verify with their ex ~~ and whether they have ever cheated because, I believe strongly the last thing a betrayed spouse needs is to be blindsided by a likely still wayward thinking marriage counselor}. 

3. Was your affair with another counselor?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yeah that two haves becoming whole thing is a crock, when two haves are brought together all you get is two dysfunctional people in a bad marriage. Only you can make yourself a whole person. In other words if you have issues no one else can solve them for you. People can help, but you have to do it. Expecting someone else to do it for you is like trying to get out of the work. It's like looking for a cheat when the only way to win is to do the hard work.



Then why not just stay single? Why get married at all?

I'm not saying independence is BAD, but it's just not a value shared by the most successful marriages.


I'm sincerely asking what changes and challenges are you having in your current marriage of 13, going 14 years? Is your wife pushing you for more intimacy? What was the impetus that caused you to take the last year of your life reading all the devastation you could find on one of the worst forums on the web {SI} where no one is happy or really recovers anything there. Is is possibly a way of shielding yourself from stepping into your marriage further? What really prompted this nose-dive into the world of infidelity?

Your wife is God's perfect gift to you. You may not like or feel comfortable with the lessons she'll teach you or the baggage she brings into your marriage but she's supposed to be your other half, your help mate, made from man's rib. It's not foolish to become interdependent upon and with her. To live a life "as one". I've personally lived your way {what I perceive as your way} and it wasn't good for either of us. I trust my wife MORE now because we're close, in love and loving life and God together. I really don't have to think about "trust" much at all anymore, because both of us are so aware of our marriage and it's value to us that if either of us risked that today, it'd be pretty obvious the other should walk away. Not to mention, we'd both smell a wayward thought/deed a mile away. Wayward really is very easy to spot. 

I understand your father was {and remains} a wayward, your mother was completely devastated and then married and divorced two more times after that and at least one of your step-fathers was abusive to you. Seeing your mother abused again and again like that certainly explains this hard emotionally protective shell you've built around yourself. You probably hated everyone of those guys while she fell again and again for their bullcrap. Single mothers are so vulnerable without the protection of their God-given better halves {your father who failed you both and remains culpable}. I understand your fear of intimacy and how you were crushed by your ex-fiancee 16 or 17 years ago and how that all likely contributes to your self-reliance and "never gonna be a victim again" attitude but maybe it's time to open yourself up a bit to your committed and loving wife and trust her with more of you. Also, maybe realize that some people choose to go the other way and instead of going into a protective shell, decide they are never gonna be a victim again by choosing to actually love their former wayward spouse more, smarter and better and be the supportive spouse they were vowed to be all along in their marriage. If it worked, my family wins, if not, I could have and would have simply divorced. Consider the story of the Johnny Lingo and the 8-cow-wife and how it relates. 


I actually see your attitude about relationships as a consequence of divorce after your father's infidelity. All indications you've given are that your father is reprobate so it's not like your mom even had a chance to truly reconcile; HOWEVER, if your dad had repented and your mother and he rebuilt their marriage to something great or even good, I very much doubt you would be anywhere near here right now or thinking that "two becoming one is a crock". There's so much my children {who are fully aware of our marital history} have learned about sin, repentance, forgiveness and marriage by living with and observing my wife and I. That's a much better outcome for my children than all the relationship trauma and abuse that was modelled for you after your father cheated and left. As a product of that environment, it's natural for you to fear and protect yourself from becoming an abuser or being abused. It's your way of coping and we all have coping mechanism, healthy and unhealthy. But wouldn't your time be better spent figuring out how to make your marriage better, great, more intimate and more fulfilling versus making and considering a detailed plan about what you'd do if you ever caught your wife cheating on you, wondering how a wayward can live with themselves {what difference does it really make to you} or running all over the internet sharing your speculative opinion that all betrayeds would be better off divorced?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Then why not just stay single? Why get married at all?
> 
> I'm not saying independence is BAD, but it's just not a value shared by the most successful marriages.
> 
> ...


Sigh... Quality wouldn't it be easier if you just blocked me. I mean in the last couple weeks you have told me, my pain is not the same because I wasn't married when cheated on. It's my own fault anyway cause I had premarital sex. I must be having intimacy problems in my marriage. I hated every guy my mom dated, which was the one by the way, and a bunch of other assumptions. For a guy who complains about me posing a lot on one subject you certainly post on one a lot. ME! 

I think I have stated why I am posting why are you so offended when WS aren't even. I have also posted on a lot of other issues that don't have to do with infidelity on here. I get that you are very concerned, but my marriage is fine. Again what this really is about is you disagree with my stance on R. OK if it comes up again feel free to fight me on the merits, but quit trying to psychoanalyze me. It really gets tiresome.


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