# Every Worry About Confirmtion Bias?



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

It seems that we see the same story here on TAM CWI a dozen times a week. So the advice stays similar.

But have you ever wondered about the stories of cheating, and infidelity and YES success stories which DON'T show up here?

Right now, there are only a few posters who have good R stories which don't fit the mold, such as Wazza (not picking on you. I'm just still new here)

But I'm sure there are men and women out there which had the strength of character to actually take the necessary steps to drop a cheating spouse without any guidance.

There are people who R without the 180 or having things shoved into the WS' face. But they find their own path so we never hear about them.

So are we actually giving advice which works all the time or are we only seeing people who CAN be helped because they don't know what to do BECAUSE their spouses are Fog bound POS? Are there WS who are NOT Fog Bound? Are there people who CAN 'nice' their ways into an R which we don't see?

It was just something on my mind.

Edited to add: The perils of not proof reading! It should be titled EVER worry, not EVERY.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I wish that more people would come back after a while and let us know that has happened. It would help to know.

As for your question, the things that we tell people here is pretty much backed up on by the material out there used by professionals who deal clients who are trying to deal with surviving an affair.

I'm sure that there are cases where beng 'nice' has helped to save a marriage. But generally what I've seen it does not work in most cases.


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I didn't show up here until 9/10 months after DDay. My wife and I already had a good reconciliation underway at that time so you could say we found our own way. The thing is that with very few exceptions the things she and I both did are the things that are held here as "the right way." The places we did things differently mostly turned out to be mistakes. 

I think most of the advice offered here works because it is centered around reestablishing truth and honesty in the relationship, which is the most important thing for reconciliation.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I think you have a point. There are more shades to both cheating, recovering and rebuilding than many TAM-posters wish to admit.

People and context are often different, maybe just slightly, but it should have an impact on the advice given.

The strength of this community is, that there are different views represented so that you can form your own opinion and act accordingly.

It's just that sometimes the alternative perspectives tend to drown because some posters shout a bit louder than others 

Otherwise, I agree with EG, that it would be nice if posters returned with the outcomes.


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Very few things in life are absolute and certain. All people and situations are different too.

Everything you say is possible. I think the advice here is based on what has worked for the folks doing the posting. 

So while it is not 100% sure or applicable, it is playing the percentages.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

JCD said:


> But I'm sure there are men and women out there which had the strength of character to actually take the necessary steps to drop a cheating spouse without any guidance.


Not so fast. some spouses who cheat really do want out. My exH was one of them. As one friend said, he wanted the divorce, therefore, you'll never have to worry whether getting a divorce was the right thing to do.

Also, my sister whose exH had an affair for 6 years before asking for a divorce. She did admit that she tried negotiating "an arrangement." They have 2 daughters, so that might explain it. 

Some people do get divorces not through strength of character but simply because that is the only option.


----------



## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I guess that you can count my FWH OW's relationship as a "sucessful" R by being nice. Multiple affairs and a husband that blames her past. She gets away with it everytime.

I got lucky that the EA had ended 6-9months prior...so no fog here. I was nice except for the night where I kicked him for figuring out that he did kiss her. Other than that, not much yelling. Just a whole lot of crying.


----------



## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

I would love to see more reconciliation and/or clossure stories.


----------



## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

If it helps Grey Goose...we are almost 5 months into reconciliation


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> So while it is not 100% sure or applicable, it is playing the percentages.


Bell curve. The advice here will be applicable for the vast majority of cases. There are always exceptions on the tails of the curve.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grey Goose said:


> I would love to see more reconciliation and?or clossure stories.


Well, the thing is, when ARE you truly reconciled? I see reconciliation as being akin to recovering alcoholism. Former alcoholics that have been sober for a very long time, even years, are still trained to call themselves recovering. It never truly ends until you are on your death bed, and stayed sober the whole time. The danger of slipping back is always there.

With reconciliation after infidelity, you can definitely get to a place of forgiveness and recommitment, redo wedding vows, etc. But you are always a recovering victim of infidelity in some way. There is always a risk it could happen again. 

I don't want to say that marriages can't thrive after infidelity, but I don't think there ever really is "closure" as you say. Very, very few people can truly say they've forgotten about it and have moved on with 100% trust and 0% fear of being bit by the snake again. All we can do is get to a spot that is comfortable enough, safe enough to feel all right, and love our spouses fully.


----------



## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Well, the thing is, when ARE you truly reconciled? I see reconciliation as being akin to recovering alcoholism. Former alcoholics that have been sober for a very long time, even years, are still trained to call themselves recovering. It never truly ends until you are on your death bed, and stayed sober the whole time. The danger of slipping back is always there.
> 
> With reconciliation after infidelity, you can definitely get to a place of forgiveness and recommitment, redo wedding vows, etc. But you are always a recovering victim of infidelity in some way. There is always a risk it could happen again.
> 
> I don't want to say that marriages can't thrive after infidelity, but I don't think there ever really is "closure" as you say. Very, very few people can truly say they've forgotten about it and have moved on with 100% trust and 0% fear of being bit by the snake again. All we can do is get to a spot that is comfortable enough, safe enough to feel all right, and love our spouses fully.


But Gabriel if I read this I would think that the best option always is to walk away. Not judging, just asking since I have a "recovering cheater" who has been begging for another chance for 2 months and I just do not know.


----------



## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> If it helps Grey Goose...we are almost 5 months into reconciliation


Great to hear that! How have you managed, forget and start feeling something again?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

JCD said:


> There are people who R without the 180 or having things shoved into the WS' face. But they find their own path so we never hear about them.


There are people attempting to reconcile while not going with the hard line sometimes espoused on TAM, but they (I) are sometimes subjected to some very rude treatment. I hope to continue to share our story of reconciliation (or not reconciliation), despite the abusive treatment. _Because_ there is good advice here, interspersed with the flames and arrows.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

Grey Goose said:


> I would love to see more reconciliation and/or clossure stories.


Not to be overly cynical here, but you will likely see more successful R stories than closure confirmations. I don't see that closure can be achieved very easily with As.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Not so fast. some spouses who cheat really do want out. My exH was one of them. As one friend said, he wanted the divorce, therefore, you'll never have to worry whether getting a divorce was the right thing to do.
> 
> Also, my sister whose exH had an affair for 6 years before asking for a divorce. She did admit that she tried negotiating "an arrangement." They have 2 daughters, so that might explain it.
> 
> Some people do get divorces not through strength of character but simply because that is the only option.


I said drop the CHEATING spouse. For example, fishfrydoc didn't seem to need any help with his situation. A cheater who wants to leave, if they lack the will to do it themselves, will keep adding D-Days, clowns, dwarves etc. until even SD would shout 'enough'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Bell curve. The advice here will be applicable for the vast majority of cases. There are always exceptions on the tails of the curve.


Maybe right, maybe wrong. My problem is that there are no reliable statistics on which to base such a statement. 

This is exactly JCD's point about confirmation bias. Statistics based on TAM are distorted. I couldn't have hung around TAM while I was rebuilding - too painful, I had enough pain already. And I'm probably crazy in hanging around 22 years after the affair, though I have found it helpful to read other stories, but I stumbled across it...therefore I am very atypical for this site, where most posters seem to be dealing with much more recent stuff.

I reckon there is no substitute for getting a lot of ideas and picking what works in your situation....except that it's so hard to be rational when your wife is with someone else. 

I also think there is one key assumption. In some people's minds cheaters have this extra personality defect. So some will cheat and some not. And someone who cheats has no morals and will cheat again. I don't agree with that. I think we all have the ability to cheat given the circumstances. Following my wife's affair, I had a very close brush with my own affair, and that opened my eyes a lot. (Didn't cheat, but it was as much by luck as anything else).

But maybe the people who think it's a defect are right, and my wife and I are both just defective 

I love her, and I can say that with a smile on my face. Reconciliation is not perfect, but it's pretty damn good!


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Well, the thing is, when ARE you truly reconciled? I see reconciliation as being akin to recovering alcoholism. Former alcoholics that have been sober for a very long time, even years, are still trained to call themselves recovering. It never truly ends until you are on your death bed, and stayed sober the whole time. The danger of slipping back is always there.
> 
> With reconciliation after infidelity, you can definitely get to a place of forgiveness and recommitment, redo wedding vows, etc. But you are always a recovering victim of infidelity in some way. There is always a risk it could happen again.
> 
> I don't want to say that marriages can't thrive after infidelity, but I don't think there ever really is "closure" as you say. Very, very few people can truly say they've forgotten about it and have moved on with 100% trust and 0% fear of being bit by the snake again. All we can do is get to a spot that is comfortable enough, safe enough to feel all right, and love our spouses fully.


Totally agree, but it keeps getting better. My last big step forward was earlier this year.

Plus I think in a sense we are "recovering" before we cheat. My wife is an amazing woman, but the weakness in her that caused her to cheat was always there, and still is. It's about how we manage it. So while I would love to have the pre-affair innocence back, what we have now is based on a more realistic footing, therefore stronger. The pre-affair innocence was fog. That's why I can say it's the best it's ever been.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Grey Goose said:


> But Gabriel if I read this I would think that the best option always is to walk away. Not judging, just asking since I have a "recovering cheater" who has been begging for another chance for 2 months and I just do not know.


Two months is not long. 

I won't thread jack here, but if you have your own thread maybe post link to it? And if not, start one? Maybe some of us can give you ideas.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I don't want to say that marriages can't thrive after infidelity, but I don't think there ever really is "closure" as you say. Very, very few people can truly say they've forgotten about it and have moved on with 100% trust and 0% fear of being bit by the snake again. All we can do is get to a spot that is comfortable enough, safe enough to feel all right, and love our spouses fully.


x1000
Closure is a fallacy. There's not a milestone becuase there's no a memory eraser or time machine. We keep growing everyday with whatever life trow us. We adapt.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grey Goose said:


> But Gabriel if I read this I would think that the best option always is to walk away. (


No, I'm not saying that. Some others might though.

I'm just saying that it will never be the same as it was. You enter a new relationship with the same person, one that is less safe, but also more knowing and mature. It's up to you if you want to live in that new relationship or not. Many people do, and do it successfully.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> *Machiavelli said: Bell curve. The advice here will be applicable for the vast majority of cases. There are always exceptions on the tails of the curve.
> Maybe right, maybe wrong. My problem is that there are no reliable statistics on which to base such a statement.*
> 
> Wazza said: This is exactly JCD's point about confirmation bias. Statistics based on TAM are distorted. I couldn't have hung around TAM while I was rebuilding - too painful, I had enough pain already. And I'm probably crazy in hanging around 22 years after the affair, though I have found it helpful to read other stories, but I stumbled across it...therefore I am very atypical for this site, where most posters seem to be dealing with much more recent stuff.


If you check, you'll see that I've been here on TAM since January 2010 so this is my third year here...and I've worked in the infidelity field since about 1999 when my exH left me for his wistress. We divorced in 2002 and I got my certification in 2003...so 13 year all total, and 9 somewhat professionally  

Anyway, based on my experience OF THOSE WHO DO RECONCILE THEIR MARRIAGE...what I see is pretty much what Machiavelli said. There is a Bell Curve of a few folks who go totally "Nice" and reconcile their marriage--a HUGE incline in the middle where the Loyal spouse does a firm 180 while protecting the family but also indicates the ability to forgive--and then a few folks who go totally nuclear "No More Nice Guy" and reconcile their marriage. 

It is EXCEEDINGLY RARE to see a loyal spouse beg and plead and be so nice to their spouse that the disloyal sees them as more attractive and comes back ready and willing to work. It is also EXCEEDINGLY RARE to see a loyal spouse be such a harda$$ that the disloyal sees that firmness as loving and comes back ready and willing to work. But for literally I'd say about 90% of couples that do reconcile, what really does work is when the loyal shows their disloyal through their actions that they will accept 100% and nothing less, and if the disloyal isn't willing to honor your promises, they won't begging, they won't be a party to enabling adultery, and the disloyal is moving without the kids (In other words...a health dose of REALITY). Add to that a loyal who shows by their actions that they are willing to work on themselves and change some of the things that harmed the marriage...and some willingness to forgive at some point. 

I don't see utter niceness usually working. I don't see utter harda$$ usually working. I see firmness while extending the olive branch of hope working.


----------



## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

We are almost 11 months post DD and 8 months post DD4 and NC (happened same day). We are doing very well in R, but are at the point where dates are making their rounds full circle and will continue to do so until March 7, 2013. We have both had some major triggers because of this, but it is not about where we are in R - it is about coping with the past and not letting it define who we are as individuals and as life partners. 

With that, I have to say that I played it nice to save my marriage in the very beginning . Part of it was because I was devestated and numb and had no fight in me, part was because I am nice in general, and part was calculated - to show WH that I was not the horrible person he must have dreamed me up as, but that the OW through all of this was a psycho bit** and he had to see her for what she really was - which is what he was trying to pant me out as and I wasn't. 

I didn't have a plan so much, as I just tried to get through one day at a time, but I believe that if I had pushed and been firm from the beginning I would not have my marriage now. I think he was so far in the fog that all he needed was for me to tell him I was done and to leave. In fact, I know this for a fact, because it was brought up in one early fight - I told him that I belive he was just waiting for me to give him an easy out, and at that time he said that it did not matter now (because we were then in true R). I also believe that because I was not tougher that I was blinded and allowed him to think that it was OK to continue the affair. I know that he wanted to stop - he went through 3 disposable phones from Oct 2011 - March 6, 2012. If he planned on staying in the affair he would have just kept the original.

I started posting on TAMS 1.5 months after DD. Honestly it was so hard to disect everything. I am not sure I followed one path, although at one point someone told me I was doing a reverse 180, so not sure what that meant. I was in false R from Dec 8 - Mar 7. I kept saying no more, and that I could not handle it. So I mentally grouped it all together as one - not each DD as seperate encounters. At that point, I was done, and I started getting real about getting angry and I was finally real with myself and real with him as to what his affair had done to me and what I was not going to allow it to do. I put my fists up and started defending myself - at that point, I was prepared to walk and I was OK with it. I was not afraid to tell him that if he wanted her he could have her and that I was not going to be a second choice or a third party in my own marriage. I felt indiffernt to him. I just needed him to give me a reason to leave.

After that, we had lots of fights/arguements, discussions, some not so kind words said, but the fealings behind them were different. The feelings were of how do we move forward together after this - WE WANT to move forward, but how do we manage. 

After my awakening, I could see true remorse - that was the key that kept me. I could have walked out after any of our fights, but I saw the remorse and I knew that his thoughts were different and he was finally starting to see the chaos we were living and the damage he had caused. For that reason, I decided to stay. 

Then after deciding to stay, I decided that I needed to do so with a clear head and open heart. That is when I chose to TRULY forgive him....not forget, but forgive, and move on and not dwell on something I cannot change.

While we are great, he is still battliing his anger and disgust with himself for what he did to me and our family. It is slowly getting better, but as mentioned above, our timeframe is bringing about triggers.


----------



## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

...sorry....had more to type but hit a button by mistake.

Anyway, last night, Halloween was a big deal. Last year at this time I was completely in the dark that he was texting and emailing the OW and getting in deep in an EA. I thought last Halloween was great, but he was talking to her. He admitted that it was a hard day for him thinking about what he was doing at this time last year and wanted to make good memories for us and make it up to us this year. It was a great night trick-or-treating, and instead of him going off on his own to do crime watch patrols this year for our neighborhood (which I am sure he did last year to text and talk to OW), we went as a family, the girls camped out in the back of our SUV. We made it through a major trigger as a family, made a great memory, and our girls (who don't know anything about WH's affair) said it was the best Halloween ever....we are in solid R and he knows how lucky he is to have his family.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I'm a bit odd, I think I pretty much covered the entire span of the bell curve over the course of a year, different parts at different times. I did nice my wife out of the affair in many ways, but I lucked out I think. Our circumstances were pretty exceptional, and they lined up in my favour. I would not recommend it as a general course of action. At the time, my mind was clearer than it had ever been, and I had all the negative emotions effectively squelched. They came out later, after the immediate crisis was past. I don't think that is usually the case. I really ought to write it out one day.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> If you check, you'll see that I've been here on TAM since January 2010 so this is my third year here...and I've worked in the infidelity field since about 1999 when my exH left me for his wistress. We divorced in 2002 and I got my certification in 2003...so 13 year all total, and 9 somewhat professionally
> 
> Anyway, based on my experience OF THOSE WHO DO RECONCILE THEIR MARRIAGE...what I see is pretty much what Machiavelli said. There is a Bell Curve of a few folks who go totally "Nice" and reconcile their marriage--a HUGE incline in the middle where the Loyal spouse does a firm 180 while protecting the family but also indicates the ability to forgive--and then a few folks who go totally nuclear "No More Nice Guy" and reconcile their marriage.
> 
> ...


I think TAM generally urges the hard approach, which you are saying doesn't work?

As a principle it makes sense to me that you have to stand up for yourself and not tolerate wrong, while at the same time not destroying any relationship that is left with nastiness. Which is kind of your middle.

If I am honest, my wife ended the affair not because of my brilliant strategies, but because her conscience made her. Both of us stayed in the marriage because of our commitment to our vows, not because of our love for each other. That may also be unusual.

It took a long time to rebuild the love.


----------



## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Grey Goose said:


> Great to hear that! How have you managed, forget and start feeling something again?


The feeling something is easy because he is so remorseful and tries hard everyday to make sure I am okay and taken care of. Hell, I never thought that I would be as devestated as I was. I thought I would be able to walk away without a second thought, like every relationship I had in the past. I guess 3 kids and 13 yrs of marriage makes it hard to walk.

The forgeting is the hard part. There are some days that I don't think about it much, but the are more days that it eats away at my thoughts. Those are days when I am super insecure and wonder if I will ever be able to do enough to keep it from happening again. The only sanity is that I cannot do anymore than my best and then the rest is up to him. 

Heres to hoping!!!!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> I'm a bit odd, I think I pretty much covered the entire span of the bell curve over the course of a year, different parts at different times. I did nice my wife out of the affair in many ways, but I lucked out I think. Our circumstances were pretty exceptional, and they lined up in my favour. I would not recommend it as a general course of action. At the time, my mind was clearer than it had ever been, and I had all the negative emotions effectively squelched. They came out later, after the immediate crisis was past. I don't think that is usually the case. I really ought to write it out one day.


Based on how you say your circumstances were "exceptional", perhaps it would be helpful for you to "write it out." I'd appreciate hearing the story.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

SadandAngry said:


> I'm a bit odd, I think I pretty much covered the entire span of the bell curve over the course of a year, different parts at different times..


Same... 
Started "nicing" her in the beginning. In the same time, I worked hard on myself and my end of the marriage, treating it like some sort of competition. Some headway was made as to how she percieved me and our relationship. False R ensued regardless because she didn't work on her or own her choices..

Then went to the opposite end after the false R. Hardcore "burn it down". Ripped her self-esteem apart. Marriage and her perception of me took a hit, but it did throw her in the well so she started finally looking inward at her own issues. And she began her own work on herself.

Then it went to the middle of the bell curve. Firm, yet hopeful. I laid out my boundaries as well as encouraged her personal growth and the growth of the relationship.

Successfully reconciled we are not. I still have a lot of issues, resentments, and regrets to work through. As does she. It isn't an 'toxic' relationship though. More good than bad.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

So this thread has been just the push I need to open up and share my story. As a set up, my wife and I are in full R mode and making solid progress. D-Day was a year ago. Like some others, I did not find this site until more than 6 months post D-Day. So it was not really a resource for me when it would have been the most valuable. But to be honest, not sure I would have used it as I wasn't really ready to share at the time. So here goes . . . .

*Chapter 1: Us - The easy part.*

My wife and I met the second day on campus in college. Started dating, both assumed it would just be our first college relationship. Four years later, we graduated still very much in love and very much together. We were two peas in a pod.

We took our time after graduation, neither wanted to rush into engagement and marriage as so much of our adult lives were still coming together. We knew were really young, and we were focused on starting careers and figuring out what we wanted to do and who we wanted to be in life. But we were still in love, dating exclusively and talking about the future. We just didn't want to rush things.

Three years later, I proposed and we were engaged. We bought a townhouse together and starting prepping for the wedding and officially building our lives together. It was great, and our families and friends were thrilled. All was perfect. We got married on the 8th anniversary of when we started dating.

The first couple of years were really good. Because we had been so close for so long, but never lived together etc (both come from strict Catholic families) it was really a time full of fun, laughter and happiness. She worked for a major airline (marketing side), so we used her benefits to travel all over the world together, footloose and fancy free!

The only downside was she seemed to be losing interest in the bedroom department. In college, our sex life was quite active and fun. We had been each other's first and spent all 4 years of college exploring each other and learning what the other (and ourselves) liked or didn't. But things had slowed down in the year or so after our marriage. Sex became less frequent, and she seemed less interested. It got to the point where we were being intimate once every few months, and I wasn't comfortable with it. 

I would try to initiate, she would shoot me down with a "not in the mood, have a headache" etc. When I tried to bring it up as an issue I wanted to talk about, she would get very uncomfortable, cry and talk about feeling "broken". She would say she wasn't sure why, sex just didn't really interest her anymore. 

If I pushed further, she would cry more, pull away emotionally and get angry. This cycle happened several times in the third year of our marriage. I proposed MC, IC, sexual therapist etc. Asked about her getting tested for proper hormone levels etc. This conversation would yield the same results of crying, emotional detachment and anger.

I struggled with this during that third year of our marriage. I had needs that weren't being met, and couldn't get her to commit to finding a solution. I thought I had a decision to make, stay in an otherwise really healthy and strong marriage and accept that sex will not be a regular part of it or make the decision that sex is critical and move on (i.e. D). I chose to stay and honor the commitment we had made to each other. I convinced myself sex wasn't that important, and relished in the fact that the rest of our marriage was so good. 

Unfortunately, I did not identify the third (and correct) option: clearly define my needs and expectations and issue an ultimatum that we either needed to work together to fix the issues or we need to accept that the marriage is not working and move on. In my head, I had tried to push the topic and had hit a dead end. I did not understand that I needed to be more Alpha and force action one way or the other. 

Anyway, with my decision made we continued on. We continued to have a lot fun, enjoying life and building our careers. In hindsight, we were sliding down the slippery slope of becoming roommates. 

And yes, I know you all see this coming a mile away (as I do reflecting back). But remember, we are all here because there was a time when we too were ignorant to the harsh reality of the world.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

*Chapter 2: Close call! Where did THAT come from?*

So our sexless marriage is chugging along really well, other than the that obvious (and giant) issue. But I am continuing to tell myself that the rest of it all makes up for it, and besides, it's like getting back in touch with my frustrated teenage years - "I'll be out in a minute mom, just cleaning up my room!" :lol:

My wife goes on an international business trip to Asia for a conference. It's a really cool opportunity, first time to Asia. She invites me to come with her and proposes extending the trip a few days so we can really take the city in, but I can't. I have a client coming into town that week and can't get away. So off she goes for 4 days in Thailand.

The night she gets back, she seems off. Can't put my finger on it, but seems emotionally distant and not herself. Weird. Then it gets weirder. She has a few drinks after dinner (she usually is a one or two drink maximum girl at this point), then we head to bed and she initiates sex. I am confused and beginning to hear alarm bells in my head. She falls asleep, and I get up and go downstairs as my brain is trying to make sense of it all.

I notice her purse and some things on the counter, including her hotel bill etc. I notice on the hotel bill that there are charges for 6 drinks missing from her mini fridge. I immediately know something is VERY wrong now. She doesn't drink that much, and NEVER drinks out of a minibar. Plus, 6 drinks in 2 nights? I go to bed pissed and sick to my stomach, but know there is no point to waking her up at 2:00 am while tipsy and trying to have the conversation. 

The next morning, I sit her down and tell her I know something is up. I tell her she needs to come clean right now on what happened in Thailand. I did not tip my hand on what I knew, but warned her I knew a lot more than she would expect and this was her one shot to get it out on the table. She burst into tears and told me the following.

She had been out to dinner with a group of airline employees (both her company and others) and they had a couple of drinks with dinner. When they came back to the hotel, they were all hanging out in the lobby having drinks and laughing. She then tells me that the hotel bar closed, but none of the group was tired due to the time change. So she volunteered to go up and get a round of drinks for the group from her room. She tells me that one of the guys offered to help carry stuff. 

She tells me at this point, that she had been flirting a little with this guy earlier etc. She says he had started chatting her up, hitting on her etc. She admitted that it felt good, she was enjoying the attention etc. 

So they get to her room, go in for the drinks, he makes a pass and they start kissing. She tells me they kissed for a minute or two, he started to push her towards the bed and she freaked. She realized what was happening and pushed him away, grabbed 3 of the drinks and told him they needed to get back down to the group and walked out. She said he followed her with the drinks and they went back downstairs to the lobby. She said she waited about 5 minutes then left the group and went back to her room where she cried etc.

She tells me this story through her own tears, keeps apologizing etc. I am pissed and shocked. Don't know what to make of it all. But feel like her story lines up with the info I have (that she didn't know I had), so I tell her how upset I am and disappointed that she would put herself in that situation (drinking heavily with coworkers, flirting and allowing a guy int her room etc). I swallow the story as is, and decided to forgive her. Tell her I am pissed, that she can't behave like that as a married woman and she better not pull this sh1t again. Then I close the chapter and move on. 

Rug sweep anyone? :smthumbup: If only I knew then what we all know now . . . .

Gee, I am certain that all of you TAM masters are shocked at the way this story has played out so far, and can't possibly guess where we are headed in chapter 3! :rofl:


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

Grey Goose said:


> I would love to see more reconciliation and/or clossure stories.


There is never closure, it's ongoing forever IMO. Trust me, I fight that urge to not do it again once in a blue moon. And some of those that I have turned down would have gotten almost every single one of my guy friends shaking their heads as to why I just didn't bone the girl if my wife would have never found out about it.

I could easily hide an affair from my wife now a days if I wanted to. I know what to avoid, what to do and say, what to hide. And with the fam business I could easily fill in gaps in my time anytime of the day or night.

This isn't going away until the day I"m buried and in the ground. It's true though, once we cheat the chances we'll cheat again is there. Given the right circumstances it could easily happen again. Just like an addict, they can get clean but if you keep on dangling that drug or addiction in their face all the time, almost always they'll fall off the wagon. There are some who can resist but not many.

Hence I have cut every single female person out of my life and have no plans to make any new female friends or acquaintances at all. No drug, no temptation, no failing. In my case no women, no temptation, no failing.

:smthumbup:


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

*Chapter 3: The Full Monte Betrayal*

So things settle down, go back to normal as they so often do after a good rug sweeping. We are both doing well in our careers, and with each passing month the weird incident in Thailand fades from memory. 

About a year and a half later, we decide to buy a house and start a family. So we move, and then get down to some baby makin! Now for a guy in a sexless marriage, this seems like a very good opportunity. Except for one thing, apparently my wife and I are the two most fertile people in the world. We decide to give it a shot, and boom!, bun in the oven right out of the gate. 9 months later, our daughter is born. Life is good.

Another two years go by, and we decide our daughter needs a sibling. And we always wanted at least two. So we decide to go again. And yes, boom!, bun in the oven right out of the gate again. 9 months later we have a beautiful son. 

I know I should be so grateful that we had such an easy time having kids, but seriously, a couple of months of trying wouldn't have been all that bad for a guy who is getting laid once every couple of years at this point. :lol: Even birthday sex had fallen by the wayside. But I digress . . . .

So at this point, we are still both working successful, but demanding careers, while raising two kids under the age of 4. Needless to say, things are hectic around the house. Over the last few years, we have slipped further and further down the roommate bunny hole. And now we are becoming roommates that feel over-stressed and under-appreciated at work and at home. We begin keeping score, and each feels they are doing way more than the other around the house, with the kids etc. 

As a result, we each have a bit of a chip on our shoulder. Tend to be quicker to argue etc. Now, I don't want to give the impression that things were awful, they weren't. We still had lots of good times - fun vacations, great nights with neighborhood friends and families and good nights together at home too. But we were arguing more often over the last year or two than we ever had. And about really stupid things too. And still no sex. Did I mention the no sex thing? :rofl:

So our daughter is 3 and our son is almost a year old, my wife is back at work and struggling through a merger. She is very frustrated with work. Constantly feeling like she is odd woman out as a result of being one of the few from her side of the company in the department as well as being one of even fewer women. She's definitely feeling the "good ol' boys club" thing. 

She is given the chance to go to Europe for a conference, where she will be a featured speaker. She is stoked, and she should be. Given all that is going on at work, it's a nice shot in the arm for her work ego. She suggests I come with her, but I can't as I have some client meetings, not to mention it it would be difficult to line up someone to watch the kids for several days etc. So of she heads for the 3 day trip in May of 2011.

She gets back, and seems a bit distant and off again. Now mind you, there had been other trips in between these conferences, but this is the first time something seems off again. My spidey senses are tingling. 

I start asking questions and pushing to know more about what she did the two nights she was there. She admits that one of the nights, she went out with a group and they stayed out until 3:00 am. But she assures me it was just because no one was tired due to the time change with the travel. Tells me they didn't really drink all that much, just hung out until the bar closed and then went out for pizza etc. 

At this point I don't have any proof, but things feel off and I am still mad that she is such a stick in the mud at home with us and so eager to go out and have fun as soon as she gets away from me and the kids. I tell her she used to want to have fun with me, now all she does is pick fights. I tell her I miss the old wife, the one that was fun and playful and always found a reason to laugh. She starts crying, saying she is sorry I feel that way etc. Understands what I am saying and commits to working harder on us.

I am still uneasy. Check her cell phone that night after she goes to bed and notice a text to another guy that was clearly at the conference. Text from him the last morning she in Europe: "You coming down to join us for an English breakfast?" Wife responds, "I wish I could, God knows I need it. But I need to get to airport or I am going to miss my flight. I don't know how you guys do it. You had more to drink than me, and you're fine. I feel awful. Gonna need the sleep on my flight back. Cheers!"

So I immediately go up, phone in hand and demand answers. She is caught off guard, does the predictable "Why are you looking at my phone?" Then admits she did have too much to drink, knew I would be upset, so she didn't tell me. Assures me it was a big group out the night before and at breakfast, and nothing bad happened. I point out that the group didn't text her, just this guy. Who is he, how do you know him etc. 

He's a contractor, his company was hosting the conference, had lined her up as speaker etc. That's why he was checking up to make sure she was ok. My wife is sticking to the "absolutely nothing happened". I bring up Thailand, she gets more defensive. We both go to bed angry.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

*Chapter 4:  D-Day Set Up*

So about two weeks after my wife comes home from the conference in Europe, she leaves me a playful card on the kitchen island that asks me to meet her at a nice hotel nearby at 3:00 for "some fun." huh?

So I go and meet her in the bar for a drink. She tells me she has spent a lot of time thinking about why I was so upset when she got back, and she realized that I was right. She continues to assure me that nothing inappropriate happened, but now understands why I felt that way. She had become distant, angry and not a lot of fun to be around. And she tells me she wants to change it, which is why she invited me here and got us a room. We have a nice time, and she starts making more of an effort to be fun and engaged around the family over the next few months. Things seem like they are getting better.

She is suddenly interested in sex. This same woman, who had been so uninterested for the last 6 years, is now suddenly awakened. Our sex life is back to like it was in college, 2 or 3 times per week. Sometimes multiple times a night. She starts buying sexy underwear. Working out more, and loses some weight. (Yes, I know all of these should have been HUGE indicators. But again, this was in my uber ignorant phase). 

I should mention, that during all of this, I am still concerned about her new friend from the conference in Europe. So I am keeping an eye on her cell phone and work email. Her email is on our iPad, so it's pretty easy to poke around every once and a while. And her phone isn't locked. I see the very occasional text to/from OM, but nothing incriminating. So while I am concerned that this guy is interested and seems to be a little friendly with my wife, I decide not to do anything unless I begin to see an inappropriate content or amount of contact.

In August of 2011, I see a text from him telling her is in the lobby of her office building and ready to go. She texts back she is sending one last email and will come down, asks where he wants to go for lunch. He says it's her call. I ask my wife what she did for lunch that day and she tells me she went out by herself and brought a sandwich back and ate at her desk.

This moment marks my initial realization that something very wrong might actually be happening. I step up my surveillance efforts.

She has a conference in Las Vegas in September, and I come along. We have a good time in Vegas. My last night there (weekend before her conference) we go out for dinner and a drink. She has more to drink than she normally does. We come back to the room and we have some pretty wild adult time. Four times to be specific smthumbup: still my personal best, had to brag!). Needless to say, it was a lot of fun and a great night. She then goes into the bathroom afterwords for a minute. I notice her cell phone isn't on the nightstand where she had put it when we walked in. When she comes out she sets it down and then goes to sleep. I grab said cell phone and see she sent the OM a text at 2:00 am Vegas time that says "I drank too much tonight. Could really use that English breakfast." 

I am crushed. We have this great night out on the town, great sex and her first thought is to run and send him a text. I know I must expose, but need the smoking gun.

Three weeks later, I get it. She forgets to delete an email to OM from her sent mail. I see the whole chain of email from the last week or so. Not pretty. Nothing sexual in nature, but 4 or 5 emails back and forth a day. All personal, no work. Discussions about how great it was to see the other, how much fun they had. Can't wait to see you again etc. 

I start to realize that some of the team outting and business dinners over the last 3 months were BS. She was with him. So I was home watching the kids so she could have an affair. It gets better. In one email she mentions that I am heading to <city>the next week for work (OM lives in <city> and commutes to our city each week as consultant). He make ecrack about being glad my work flies me on other airline so we don't have to have the awkward meeting in the airport. My wife writes back and makes a joke, suggesting he set me up with his wife while I am in town and he is gone. 

So there it is. She is having an affair, I am watching the kids and running the house while she does it, all so I can be the butt of her jokes with the OM. My furious rage sets in deep.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

*Chapter 5: D-Day *

So I discovered the email while I was home after work on a weeknight, but had to hold it together for about an hour. Our routine was that I left work, picked the kids up from daycare, came home and got them settled, and would then start getting dinner ready. My wife had a longer commute and usually got home around 6:30 or so.

So I am at home, with my entire world crumbling down around me and full of rage, and all I can do is work on dinner and wait for her to come home. So I prep the kids dinner, and hear her car pull up on the driveway. I give the kids a kiss and tell them I have to go out for a bit, but that mommy is home and will take care of them. I walk out to meet her on the back steps of our house and immediately say the following:

Me - "Do you want to tell me about "OM Name".?" 
Her - "What do you mean." Wide-eyed and suddenly pale.
Me - "You know exactly what I mean, so don't for one more minute lie to me. The lies are done. I know. I know you have been having an inappropriate relationship with him since your conference in Europe. You have lied to me and deceived me over the last 4 months and it all ends now. I will not listen to your bullsh1t one more minute. He is not just a friend. I want to hear you say the words right now. "
Her - "What do you want me to say?" now crying, and trying to reach out to me.
Me - "Don't you dare touch me. Not after what you've done to me, to us and to this family. Now say it. Tell me what you did."
Her - "I can't. I can't say it out loud." Crying hard.
Me - "Then I'll say it for you. You f'ed him. You betrayed your husband and destroyed your family and f'ed him. You ended your marriage and crushed the one person who has always supported you. I'm done. The kids are inside, their dinner is prepped. Feed them, play with them and put them to bed. Enjoy your time with them, think about what you've done to them and their childhood. I am leaving." At which point I started walking to the car.
Her - "Where are you going? What are you doing? We need to talk about this."
Me - "Not sure where I am going, but away from here right now. There is nothing to talk about. Anything that could have been discussed has already been destroyed." Then I closed the car door and drove away.

Truth be told. I drove about 4 blocks away, pulled over and let 'er rip. I cried like I have never cried before. It took every once of strength I had not to break down in front of her. While I am crying like a baby, she starts texting me frantically. I keep sending really cruel and harsh texts back. I texted some things that I am not proud of, to be honest. Some things I do regret saying, to be honest. I was perfectly justified, mind you, but I was set on inflicting as much pain as possible.

After about two hours, I drove back home knowing the kids would be down. I walked in and went down to the wine rack. I grabbed a nice bottle we had been saving and came up the stairs. She was in the kitchen crying and looked up startled. I told her I was going to sit down and drink this bottle of wine, and she had the time it would take me to drink that bottle to come clean and tell me everything. That she needed to answer every single question I had honestly and completely no matter how uncomfortable it made either of us. 

Then I sat down and angrily drank a bottle of really good wine while I learned the deepest and darkest secrets of what my wife had become. I told her I didn't know if I could fathom staying married to her, but that the only shot she had was telling me everything. I then asked her if she wanted me to get her a glass, which caught her off guard. She said "No, why would you even ask me that?" To which I responded "Well we had been saving this bottle for a special occasion, and I think this qualifies. It's not everyday that a marriage of 8 years and a family of four is destroyed."

I learned she had indeed slept with POSOM at conference in Europe. Had gone out with a group, came back to hotel and had a few drinks and then gone back to his room and had sex. She came home freaked out, and then doubly so when I immediately picked up on it. But then two weeks later she met him for lunch at work. They are started lots of texting and emails. Occasional phone call. They slept together 3 more times over the next 3 months. All three times were after work while I was home watching the kids. Awesome.

She had the typical fog going on, said she felt like she just needed to be selfish and have something for her. Was getting lost in all her roles as mom, wife, employee etc. Didn't have anything that was just for her. She also said that she felt like she was being a better wife and mother during the affair, that having something that was just for her made her more giving in other areas. She was afraid if she gave it up, she would go back to being "a shrew" as she said. Good-old fashioned cake eating anyone? :scratchhead:

I told her I would stay long enough to help her figure out why she did this, but that didn't mean I was necessarily sticking around for the long haul. I said that I wouldn't force her to move out of the house immediately if she did the following:

Send a NC text to POSOM, which she did and I read. 
She agreed to never again contact him, ever. 
She agreed to get help, MC at the least.
No more travel, for at least a year.
Full transparency - phone, email etc.
She agreed to expose the affair to her parents and mine - sit down and tell them, face-to-face what she had done.

In hindsight, I am sooo lucky that I accidentally did all of the above without fully understanding it was the best and only shot I had. When I cam to TAM and started reading the posts, I was delighted to learn I had done most things right based on my gut. 

But I do have to confess to messing up one are pretty badly. I made the mistake of calling the POSOM the next morning. 

I told him that he was never to try and contact my wife again. I explained that if he saw on her on the sidewalk coming towards him, he better cross the street. I then explained that my family farms, outside of the city. And that when I was a kid, we would go hunting out on these large tracks of desolate land. And I told him we always had to be really careful not to drop anything (cell phones etc) because there was no chance you would ever find it again if you dropped it. I explained that even large items would never be found out there, even if people were looking for them. And then I reminded him that many times in these situations, spouses can react very violently and that I was working really hard to control my rage. But that any future contact would make it mush more difficult to control that anger.

The above paragraph isn't my finest hour, but if I caused him to fear for his safety a bit, I won't lose any sleep. The part that I regret is what I did next.

I told him that he didn't get to walk away clean from knowingly f'ing another man's wife. I told him he had 24 hours to tell his wife, and that I would be calling her to verify he had manned up and told her. Yeah, so I literally gave him a game clock to manage his gas lighting against.

When I called his wife the next day at her office, she was pissed. She stopped me before I could say much of anything and said, "OM told me everything last night. Now please do not ever call me or OM again and let us live our lives."

At the time, I was really confused. Not sure why anyone in her situation wouldn't want to hear what the other person had to say. But that's before I really understood the gas lighting thing. So if there was one thing to do over, it would be not telling him that. I would have just called OMW, told her and offered to send emails etc.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

*Chapter 6:  The Next Year*

So after D-Day, I made the decision to allow my wife to stay in the guest room of our house. The main driver for this was not wanting to disrupt our kids lives while we figured out what to do next. 

We did sit down with set of parents in the first week, and my wife told them what she had done. Looking back, I think her strength in these moments were the first glimpses of the woman I married still being in there. She did not want to do this (obviously), but I had told her it was a must and she tackled it head one. 

Interestingly, her parents were very disappointed in her behavior and supportive of me not leaving. But they also quickly talked about all of the stress we both have at work and that sometimes that can result in not being focused on each other etc. I don't disagree with what they were saying, but listening to her parents blameshift was surprising. My wife and I have since discussed it and she agrees it was odd and misplaced. But I suppose it is the unwavering love of a parent, and the unwillingness to see your child in a bad light. I don't fault them at all.

We started MC together a few weeks after D-Day and still go about once every 5 or 6 weeks. It's been good. The sessions have always been more focused on the marriage than the affair. We really only talk about the affair through the lens of it affecting the marriage, if that makes sense. 

So we have spent much of our own energy focused dealing with the affair. We have read a lot of books together, had some intense conversations etc. But I can say confidently that we both have MUCH more clearly defined boundaries now. My wife understands the affair is 100% hers to own. She also knows how much pain it caused and is focused on slowly rebuilding trust and our relationship.

After about 6 weeks or so, she moved back into our bedroom. I am also happy to report that our sex life is much better. We are back to a more regular engagements, but also into really enjoying each other again. The HB phase was kind of nuts, we definitely didn't understand what was happening there. I'll never look at our laundry room the same way. :rofl:

Interestingly, she has also brought up the trip to Thailand during our R process (about 6 months in). She told me she wanted to come 100% clean on it. She said that the truth was the group had gone out, but that she had invited that guy back to her room. Wasn't sure what she was thinking, but was drunk. He came in, they kissed for a while, had a few drinks, kissed some more and then she got cold feet and said he should probably head back to his room. This was hard to hear, but I appreciated her bringing it up and wanting to address it. I also give her props because she referred to this kissing incident as her first physical affair. She owns it as such.

It's been a year. A year full of ups and downs, good days and bad. Some days I am in a good place, some days a pretty dark place. R is a grueling process of relentless work. But thankfully, my wife is 100% committed to it as well. So on the days I am down, she helps pick me up and keeps us moving forward. She knows how close we came to it all ending, and she has told me in many ways it has made each day together since a treasure she appreciates more. She knows that each of these days is a gift from me to her that she needs to cherish and appreciate (her words, not mine). 

We both feel that R is a continual process that never really ends. Our hope is that it requires a little less conscious effort and sacrifice over time. We will not take each other for granted again. We clearly understand the boundaries, and watch for any threat to them. We will never blindly trust again. That last one is a good thing, and a bad thing.

So I hope this was in some way informative. Probably not the right post to do it in. But I thought sharing my story and subsequent R to date would be good for me, if for no one else.

So thanks for listening!


----------



## blindsidedwife (Sep 7, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT? Thanks very much for sharing your story. I'm really glad that R is going well for you. I hope I'll be able to say the same for myself and my WH one day.

I too look back at my marriage and have the same "duh!" moments. I wish I knew then what I know now, it could have saved so much heartache.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT?, thanks for sharing. We don't see enough about reconciliation here, and we also know that it is a never-ending process. Please keep us updated on how things go as you move along.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

JCD, absolutely I found myself on the path all alone, I went through the phases, including deciding to 180 and going dark, realizing that my W was in a fog before I ever once turned to a web forum for any kind of help. It wasn't until a month or so after separating, feeling all alone beginning to doubt myself that I decided to turn to the internet - and TAM was pretty much the first place I found from a google search, and to read all the other stories that matched mine almost verbatim, reading a post literally wondering if I was the one that wrote it. It wasn't until I got here that I could start assigning names to the things I was going through, like "affair script" "Fog" "niceguy" "WW" etc.

I already knew what I had to do, this place just helped me strengthen my resolve, in terms of letting go.


----------

