# This is VERY long, but extremely important marriage issue. Would appreciate your time



## naddy

*This is pretty long, but all relevant. My sister thinks our relationship is a big soap opera, and thus.. if you have the time to read through, process, and answer..I would be in your debt*

I met Keith ( a F2M trans) at a 4 day wedding in Colorado 4 years ago. We clicked instantly. One night, we laid on the mountain staring at the sky talking. He then told me about his gf, then asked what I thought about polygamy. I never thought about it, but was open to it I guess. He then started talking about a crush who friendzoned him when he said he wanted a relationship with her (she lives 6 states away) and thus, didnt trust her anymore (Sara).

The next few months were a lot of texts/calls. I admitted to him at one point I had a crush on him, he reciprocated and said me and Sara are the only 2 ppl he's ever felt that way about. I asked about Angela (gf) and he told me he was looking to end things, but didnt want to hurt her. I said "don't string her along". Apparently the stipulation to their relationship was that Angela agreed to him having 'free love'(Keith's openly admitted that most of his relationships were all placeholders. He falls in love rarely and gets into relationships for convenience and to fill a void). The next month I visited him. The first thing I saw was a ton of photos on his walls, including me. Sara was all over the place, even his old crystal wedding frame. He showed me entries he wrote down about her, love poems. It was kinda shriney. Angela was there 90% of the time. She came over and he would ignore me and get all cuddly and lovey with her. I felt like I was entertaining myself. I mentioned it to him cause he seemed oblivious, and he told me she insisted on being there so he was trying to keep her happy. The one day she didnt come over we slept in bed and had sex. (He'd said they had an open thing) . The next night we all went to a gay club and he was all over this guy there. He was talking to me about him like "mmm I bet he's fun to play with ". That night Angela spent the night with him and I slept on the air mattress.

The next few months, me and Keith continued to talk. Him and Angela's relationship was still there, and he just kept saying he was intending on ending it. Then he said he would wait till he got back from Cali (a trip to visit her family/Keith to meet family) ( I thought that was a **** move to her) After the trip tho, he did it.

After a few more visits, we talked about me moving down. Now realize that for the past couple months I'd been vaguely talking about a relationship with him and he always got commitment-phobic. The R word scared him. He always said "can't we just be..", 'free love', "my job [as an ACE hardware employee] is my top priority I'm unsure if I'd want to move to Minnesota (from Iowa).". So at this point in my head I'm thinking... so u have the same feelings for me as u did for Sara, yet u are unwilling to move 1 state away to be in a relationship with me (after u stop stringing Angela) when u were willing to uproot everything to be with Sara in SEATTLE. That u want an open friend relationship thing with me but wanted a real relationship with her.

So, because of that I moved to Iowa to give this a shot. Which he was all for because he didn't have to give up anything for that. About 2 days before I moved down he told me casually that he got the random FWB guy that he hit on at the bar to move in (Matt). I hung up lol. He called back like "did I say something?" I told him I wasnt going to do that and he reassured me it's just for extra rent $ and nothing would happen. I accepted that. I moved in. Matt and Keith clashed and Keith couldnt stand him. Keith told me he was in love with me. He often told me at random that I'm enough for him and he doesnt want anyone else. A year later he asked me to marry him, that stunned me. My health anxiety started to kicked in. I'm a severe hypochondriac with PTSD issues from excessive, past trauma. I've had this off/on since I was 5. I always severely avoided therapists cuz I was afraid I was clinically insane and they would tell me that. I told Keith openly that I was a hypochondriac and he understood.

A month later, I was on Keiths laptop. I ended up going to my FB. He was still logged in and I saw he messaged Sara... like, talking bout how good she was "with ur fingers " (they had a minor sexual encounter previously) and other things. And it was only months old. She was vaguely discussing wanting to take him to Hawaii after I'd moved down.

That night, I showed him that I saw those msgs, and I was pissed. He wanted to sit with me and run through the convo to clarify it meant nothing. And that they always talk like that. That he considered Hawaii, but wouldn't do anything with her. That he just wanted a free vaca cause he felt she owed him after hotwiring her 3k years before to get her teeth fixed.

I then did the worst thing out of BLINDING ANGER. The worst thing ever. I made a faux Sara FB acct, sent myself a text from the faux her, and showed Keith. He was peeved at her and msged the real her very angry and it got bigger than I thought. He deleted her. I didn't feel right about it at all, why would I? I knew I had to admit what I did. I knew the consequences; leaving me, him talking to her again, I don't know..but I was prepared for it, so I told him ALL OF IT. His reaction was, like it wasnt a big deal. He wasn't upset. He told me he didnt have any interest in talking to her anyways so he wasnt going to. I was stunned. He never brought it up again.
Seldomly I'd fly off about her still. If we were arguing about relevant stuff, like, he didn't want to help out and temporary loan me money for a bill I had after a ruptured abscess. I said "Oh, u cant loan me $200 for an emergency but u'd instantly hotwire 3k to Sara, a ****ing WOW penpal u met 1 TIME."

For the next few years the health anxiety came & went. ALS, CJD, Cancer, Fatal insomnias, Tumors, etc. Keith was my #1 go-to for health questions. After a while of it he's like "talk to ANYONE else about it, why are u putting this all on me?" or "have u talked to a psychologist yet? I told u once u go and they tell me how to help u best, I'm not answering ur Q's." He tried to get me outside, do things with me, things I liked to and sometimes, I would be on WebMd on my phone, not even paying attention..and that pissed him off. K:"Look at the mountains hun" Me:"What? Oh yeah, cool" K:"Are u looking at medical stuff?", etc. His problems weren't getting addressed too cause of it. He pushed me many times to go to a psychologist, and I'd put it off, try to get better on my own, fail, repeat. I was just scared. I tried so hard to suppress it, He's my husband, not a crutch. Through the on/off bouts..our lives were good. We both worked together. Keith would wake me up with a kiss on the cheek,a snuggle, drive to work, go to a restaurant after, try and beat each other in Cribbage, Netflix, cuddle, sleep. 5 nights a week for 2 yrs.

Then, his folks wanted to move to Boise and wanted us to come. I was unsure about this, but took a chance. We all drove to Idaho last Dec. I had SEVERE anxiety from around Feb till now. Keith was at the end of his rope with it. We still did all the amazing cuddly, fun, happy things.. but if my health anxiety seeped through AT ALL, he was done. My sleeping was off, and I didn't eat much. 

On Tuesday (Apr 2nd) we went to eat, cracked jokes, I asked him if he wanted to go to the movies and he was all for it. I gave him a kiss on the forehead as he was texting his best fr. and the text looked like it'd be something bad about me. When I politely asked, he lied to me saying it was about something else. I could tell he was lying and asked why and he said, "cause I didn't want to start a fight before the movie". I got angry, not cause he was talking to her about me, but him lying to me ABOUT me. I blew up. He went to the movie alone, and then he said this..

"U've never believed how I felt about u. I'm going to stop pretending that everything is okay cause it isn't. I don't want to sleep with u anymore, I don't want to do things with u anymore, u're not the person I want to be with. I gave u many chances to get help, I'm done and I'd like u to go"

I bawled. I called him making a complete ass out of myself saying he couldn't have meant that, I'll go to a therapist, etc...and he was just like, it's too late, get a hold of urself. At home i said

Me: "Please, i'm sorry..."
K: "it's too late"
Me: "do u really want me to leave?"
K:"YES"
Me:"for good?"
K"for now"
Me:"I'll get help I will!"
K:"What, u think going to a therapist will make me suddenly have feelings for u again?"
Me:"u don't love m---??"
K:"Ugh I'm going to bed"
Me:"but.."
K:"BED. I have to be up at 6" (shuts door).

I sent a long msg saying how I need help, sorry, u deserve better, can't pretend any longer that I can deal with it alone, I can't use u as a crutch, I don't blame u for being fed up (summarized). He thought it was pathetic. Weds I contacted every shrink to get an asap appt...and got one for that Friday. I did EVERYTHING to improve the quality of my day. I cleaned the kitchen, bathroom, myself, made dessert. Keith came home, and seemed..jubilant & carefree..about his day (normal for him) to his folks. The bizarre thing was him being sparingly nice to me cause I was on my feet. I got 1 text from him that day "I'm glad u got an appointment, We'll see how it goes but I want space at home".

Friday was my appt. I talked all about my past, childhood, fears, all of it. I picked my fingers till they bled I was so nervous. The therapist mentioned PTSD/Somatoform Disorder. When I got home, Keith was there. He started talking to me and I took that as a green light. He was glad I went..but wary. He wants to see how things continue to go with the shrink and if I change so I'm happy and partaking.. otherwise he is happier alone. He then told me then that he started talking to Sara again. Normally, I'd be upset, but I was composed (but dying inside). He literally handed me his phone and said i can look at the msgs. I wasn't ready. I read the texts and I didn't know what to think...

S: i'm actually confused, why the request now?
K: i wanted to apologize for the loss of it. Long story
K: She was worried I had feelings for u, and what she saw on our FB chat was confirmation enough for her. She snooped through all my chats/texts. She wanted to 'test' me to prove I wouldnt leave her so she made a fake 'Sara' email. And she started emailing me to provoke me.
K: Which was ridiculous. I knew how u felt about a relationship, she didn't. It was too much for her that we be friends. I had convos with her which she provoked me claiming u sent her these msgs. That pissed me off and she got the response she wanted. That I dont speak to u again. I didn't want to start conflict so I agreed not to contact u, which she was monitoring. It wasnt till before the wedding that I saw the email acct she made. I thought, do I call this crazy thing off even though we put money into it or live with it? And that's the decision I made, obviously it wasnt a good one.
S: So why tell me after all this time? Are u still married to her? Someone who would lie and hurt someone like that? u don't know how bad that hurt"
K: I'm sorry, I told her we're done. I wanted to apologize sooner but I didnt want her to see. IDC what she sees now.
S: I actually feel sick. I dont know how to react. How many times have I tried to get u to listen to me? That chick is bag full of **** crazy! I dwelled for months cause my friend didnt believe me.
K: Yeah, it made me sick to find out she played me like that and what I said as a result. I don't want her in my life anymore.
S: I almost didnt take u'r friend req. cause I thought it might be her
K: cant handle this ****. Like I said, I don't know what I said to u cause I was talking to her. I just never knew it it was really u or not so i didn't.
S: All u had to do was call

(And then just a bunch of jubilant random texts about sunrises, welding, misc as well as calls.)


I was going to vomit. I walked out to breathe. I asked him to come out to talk with me.

Me:"that was painful"
Him: "yeah, I knew it would be tough for u to hear"
Me: "Do u like her?"
Him: "No, I messaged her to apologize
Me: "u told her u contemplated marrying me then?"
Him: "Yeah, that was such a big lie u did"
Me: "it was, and I told u flat out I did it and was prepared W/E and u let it go.."
Him: "well thats cause I already knew. I actually found it on ur computer before u told me."
Me: " U didn't tell me that"
Me: Was it true about why u continued with the wedding?"
Him: "I did it cause I love u"
Me: "U said the money down was a factor in u'r indecisiveness"
Him: "Stop. Why do u do that? U always jump to conclusions and not listen. I love u and thats why I did it."
Me: "Do u really want a divorce?"
Him: "I thought about it the other day yeah."
Me: "Why? You said 'for now' the other day"
Him: "Well, if it was over,u'd likely have to go back to MN since u don't have anything here or a job yet..so that is a divorce.."
Me: "But, doesnt that even bother u?"
Him: "U dont get to ask about my emotions anymore"
Me: "okay..I just don't understand. We love each other."
Him: "Lots of divorced people are still in love..."
Him: "I want to be with U. I love u. I never wanted it to get to this point, to contemplate divorce. I don't want to live my life like this! You are going to kill me!(cries) with u refusing real help."
Me: "I'm going to someone, I'm really on this. This is it"
Him: "I want to see u get help and I want U back"

Later I said "I'm going to try and be okay with the Sara thing. It hurts, I hate it, but I'm trying" and he said "u arent going to dictate who I can or cant talk to". He's made it clear that I have to earn him back and that if I'm not cool with something that's changed, he's there to help me to accept it.

Friday/Sat he was in a...'it's going to take some time to earn my trust back but I want the anxiety-less u cause I love u. I'm proud u will get help but if you don't get fixed, divorce' mode.

Sunday he kissed my face to wake me up asking "u want to go bargain shopping today hun?". We went, and he didnt seem to enjoy it (he explained later he just didn't feel like shopping. Would've had more fun doing something else with me).
That night, he wanted to cuddle. We stared at each other, and I told him how maybe I have insecurity issues and he said "yes, people dont CONSTANTLY ask for reassurance on others feelings, that's not normal behavior ^_^". I agreed, and I apologized for sometimes not acknowledging his problems. He said "well, I dont really show my emotions in general tho lol." but took the apology. We cuddled, talked, etc. He spooned me, stroked my arm, huggled, telling me he loves me, etc.

Yesterday, he came home and hugged the cat, got a glass of wine, talked about his day to his fam. It was 40 min later that he decided to come up behind me while I was doing laundry and wrap his arms around me. Later he asked me if I wanted to cuddle upstairs. He just stared at me while facing me, moving hairs out of my face. I couldn't escape from my mind 'how' he talked about me to her, the mistake I made, etc.

Me: (literally explained exactly what I said above about when I looked at those msgs, the Hawaii thing, blowing up making a fake acct, feeling bad about it, etc)
Him: *Nodding and acknowledging*
Me: "I told u that I did it and u downplayed it. I didn't know that u were harbouring this bitter resentment towards over it. It hurt to hear u resurface it like I'm some..monster. Like I'm reduced to a detested conversation piece."
Him: "Hun, I don't think ur a monster (strokes my arm) and I know it was an old mistake."
Me: " Then why tell her part reason is cause u didn't want to risk it being me? That u thought I was still doing this?"
Him: *looks confused* I don't think u'r 'still' doing it. I only brought the subject up cause I had to explain what happened.If you and I were going to end, my BIGGEST regret that came out of our marriage was not apologizing to Sara for all the horrible things I said and what happened which she had NO idea about. You should be the one apologizing to her. I don't even have an interest in talking to her again hun.U know I've always been open to show my texts if u need proof "
Me: "When I admitted to u what I did and u let it go, u told me that u had no interest in talking to her anyway. AT ALL. I eventually believed that cause u always instilled it."
Him: "but, u also told me before that u didn't want me talking to her."
Me: "Well duh! U seem to think that me assuming u had interest in her based off of those texts was unfounded...do u even recall what u texted her?"
Him: "Not really..?"
Me: "U were half-serious talking about going to Hawaii together..while I'm here! U tried to convince me u wouldnt spend time with her there/do anything with her, u just wanted to get a vaca out of it. That she owed u after the 3k u gave her. Do I look like a dumbass?"
Him: "Oh yeah, I forgot about that..*unsure shrug*."
Me: "or talking to her about how "good she's with her fingers ".Saying that's friendly & meant nothing.."
Him: "Oh.. *Purses lips and starts to giggle*
Me: "It's like----wait..why are u laughing? u think that's funny?"
Him: (giggling but trying to suppress it--clears his throat) "I..I don't have a comment."
Me: "U always complained and that I never believed how u felt and now I'm finding out that some were lies in order to keep things copacetic? I mean, it's coming from the right place, but still a lie. Like, what else are u hiding to keep me from getting angry? Do u want polygamy again?"
Him: "lol no hun (kisses forehead) I don't want anyone else"
Me: "Hearing how u talked about me and how u...wanted me out of ur life. Just a breath-of-fresh-air-without-u persona...and now u're holding me close, kissing with adoration merely because I'm finally going to a specialist. What am I to think?"

Then we snuggled, kissed and all that lovey dovey stuff. And that's where we are now. Is any of this wrong? The things I fear, the things I am fixing, the things I did wrong? Sara? Any red flags? What should I say/do? Just leave it?


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## Young at Heart

naddy;

Not sure where to start as this is well out of my experience range.

As you have posted Keith (is a F2M trans), which is fine. However you also said he is really into placeholder relationships, free love and perhaps your most telling post for me was that early on "...we all went to a gay club and he was all over this guy there...." Also you posted "....he told me casually that he got the random FWB guy that he hit on at the bar to move in (Matt)....." You clearly understand that Keith is a "player" with both men and women.

You have some jealousy issues with Sara. You have some past emotional issues but are working through some of them (Good Job!) "........Friday was my appt. I talked all about my past, childhood, fears, all of it. I picked my fingers till they bled I was so nervous. The therapist mentioned PTSD/Somatoform Disorder. ........" 

Where I get really confused is your "relationship with Keith." You posted,


> Me: "u told her* u contemplated marrying me then?*"
> Him: "Yeah, that was such a big lie u did"
> Me: "it was, and I told u flat out I did it and was prepared W/E and u let it go.."
> Him: "well thats cause I already knew. I actually found it on ur computer before u told me."
> Me: " U didn't tell me that"
> Me: *Was it true about why u continued with the wedding?*"
> Him: *"I did it cause I love u"*
> Me: "U said the money down was a factor in u'r indecisiveness"
> Him: "Stop. Why do u do that? U always jump to conclusions and not listen. I love u and thats why I did it."
> Me: *"Do u really want a divorce?"
> Him: "I thought about it the other day yeah."*
> Me: "Why? You said 'for now' the other day"
> Him: "Well, if it was over,u'd likely have to go back to MN since u don't have anything here or a job yet..so that is a divorce.."
> Me: "But, doesnt that even bother u?"
> Him: "U dont get to ask about my emotions anymore"
> Me: "okay..I just don't understand. We love each other."
> Him: *"Lots of divorced people are still in love..."*


Is Keith your husband? If so why would you marry a "player of both men and women?" You can't compete with half the group he likes to have sex with. His talking about going off to Hawaii with another woman should tell you that if you are married or think you might marry him, that he would not honor any marriage vows to you to forsake other women, let along never vowing to forsake other men for you.

Now to your parting question:


> Any red flags? What should I say/do? Just leave it?


Lots of red flags, don't get involved with a player and expect you to be able to change them or to have a close relationship with only you. Huge red flag.

Should you just leave it? That is up to you. I would advise you to spent time with your therapist talking about your relationship with Keith. Once you figure out what your relationship with him is in your mind, invite him to join you for a joint therapy session. If he goes, try to figure out what he thinks his relationship with you is. See if you can get him to tell you where he thinks the relationship is headed, if anywhere other than pleasant rolls in the hay.

Good luck to you. You were brave for speaking out and asking help. I think that from what you posted you need help that a marriage/relationship counselor can best provide. Continue to be brave and work on healing your self emotionally.

Good luck again.


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## MattMatt

This is Keith










A nice, sparkly rainbow vortex sucking you and everyone else into his life. But not, actually, caring that much about anyone but himself.

Keith was probably not a very nice person as a woman. And he is probably not a very nice person as a man, either. You can change sex, but not the basic personality.

Consider Keith. does he seem "authentic" to you, or someone playing multiple roles depending on who he is with or what he wants in any given situation?

He wants a divorce? Then maybe that is something you should take with both hands?


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## Spicy

It sounds to me like you are way too sensitive to everything. Also, refusing for years to get treatment on your illnesses IS a big deal. 

If you love this person and want to make your life with him, you should be addressesing ALL of your medical concerns, and be doing as good as possible on all things. 

He may have hit is breaking point. Time will tell. When that happens, it is usually two late. You’ve failed him. Maybe hitting the wall will send him back to you. I hope others read this that are refusing to address emotional and physical things, see the damage it does to the other mate. I left XH for this very reason. Guess what? He still hasn’t changed.


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## personofinterest

Please get help for yourself.


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## Laurentium

naddy said:


> Any red flags?


Are you kidding?

Keep seeing your therapist. 

Ask yourself whether this relationship is making you more, or less, mentally healthy. 

Assume he probably won't change, because people usually don't. 



> I admitted to him at one point I had a crush on him, he reciprocated


A crush is a very bad basis for a relationship.


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