# Should I divorce or check my selfishness?



## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

I'm a man in my 40s considering a divorce from my wife also in her 40s. We have been married 25 years and have an adult daughter in her early 20s. No other children. There is no infidelity of any kind involved on either side.

I realize this post is one sided by definition. No matter how objective I try to be, only one viewpoint is represented and my wife is going to sound just awful and I'm going to sound just amazing. It's definitely not that way I can assure you, but these are my own concerns and so they are going to sound rather one-sided.

My wife will not work, and this bothers me. A lot. She was still living at home when we married and hadn't started her career yet. Then the baby came and she filled the mom role while I worked (entirely from home, as is the nature of my career).

She did not want to be a mom. In our early years she even suggested we divorce and I take sole custody (we had some big early problems, but we got better). I say that just for context. She was and is a good mom, but never wanted the full-time role. I assumed she wanted a career. I chose my career, and I was open to whichever road she chose for our daughter (mom or career). She chose mom, and managed to squeeze in a BA during 3 of those years while our daughter was around 5 to 8.

When our daughter graduated HS, I assumed she'd transition slowly into a career. What a tough thing to do, needs time for sure. We've touched on the subject over the last 5 years but it always proves toxic. No matter how diplomatic or understanding I try to be, it becomes explosive for her and I'm accused of misogyny, selfishness, and other things until I back down or we just agree to leave it alone. We've left it alone for as long as a year once by mutual agreement, but it became toxic immediately afterwards and no progress ever happens.

I feel like my wife has settled into early retirement. She feels like she's paid her dues by forgoing a career to be our daughter's primary care giver. She reads, tends her garden, watches movies, and plays piano and other leisure activities while I work full time and will do so out of necessity for at least 20 more years. She keeps extremely nocturnal hours. We share housework: She shops, I do dishes. We each cook our own meals, do our own laundry, and clean our own spaces. Common spaces are left rather sloppy full time, typically until we do sort of a joint speed-cleanup together. We are both good with this arrangement, and for my part I'd rather have a working partner than a mom-wife anyway during our empty nest years.

The way I see it, we should both be working until we can both feasibly retire (at which point one or both of us might continue working by choice). I feel like this is what 2 equal partners do. Salaries don't matter, but contributing equal effort does. I feel like I've become a slave in my house. I used to wonder "what would she do if I died, and why doesn't she just start doing that?". Recently those thoughts have morphed into wondering if I should seek a divorce before our marriage goes so long that a divorce would require lifelong alimony - basically mandating our current situation by force of law forever (I know very little about divorce, so maybe that's hyperbolic).

And then there's the effect on our daughter if I even brought up divorce. It would surely reach her that "dad was bailing", even if it was more of a bluff than anything else. And if I actually served papers - yikes - surely that would tear our daughter to pieces.

Perhaps I am being super messed up in my thinking? I revere moms and respect what they do, especially full-time moms. I had an amazing mom who raised me on her own, and she would NEVER have faded quietly into dependence on a man. Perhaps I'm expecting my wife to be too much like my mom?

Sorry for the length. To sum up: (A) move to divorce, or (B) get my head straight? I deeply appreciate any advice I can get. If any women have some possible insight into my wife's perspective, that would be extra appreciated.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

There is no valid reason for her to not be working and you having that expectation is not selfish. I do wonder if she’s afraid to put herself out into the workforce, she’s never done it and I’m guessing it might seem a bit intimidating for her.

You don’t say anything about the rest of the relationship? Do you love each other? Are you affectionate with each other? Is there anything left between you two worth fighting for?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> I feel like this is what 2 equal partners do. Salaries don't matter, but contributing equal effort does.


What does contributing equal effort mean to you? If salaries aren't a main factor, what bothers you about how she spends her time? Granted, I do feel your above statement is reasonable. But I'd be curious to understand more of your perspective around this - and then what sparks reaction between you.

I don't think this is simply a matter of choosing option (A) or (B)... there's no doubt other choices here, yet to be discovered between you both.

For context, given that I'm a random on the interwebz, Batman and I don't have children so I can't provide any insight to parenthood. We both work and I'm also studying.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> I had an amazing mom who raised me on her own, and she would NEVER have faded quietly into dependence on a man. Perhaps I'm expecting my wife to be too much like my mom?


What was your wife's childhood like?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I also do not believe that you are wrong in your thinking. I can’t understand why she would just want to be home all day, doing basically nothing. I mean, if she’s going to be home, why would she not do all of the cooking and all of the cleaning? She has no children to look after while she is home all day. What is the point? I don’t know, it just doesn’t sound like she is much of an actual partner in the current dynamic. 


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## Camper292000 (Nov 7, 2015)

She needs a job! No matter which path you take.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

ejay said:


> I'm a man in my 40s considering a divorce from my wife also in her 40s. We have been married 25 years and have an adult daughter in her early 20s. No other children. There is no infidelity of any kind involved on either side.
> 
> I realize this post is one sided by definition. No matter how objective I try to be, only one viewpoint is represented and my wife is going to sound just awful and I'm going to sound just amazing. It's definitely not that way I can assure you, but these are my own concerns and so they are going to sound rather one-sided.
> 
> ...


Your FWB/Roommates, yes Divorce and your daughter will get it in time when she married. But I don't think you'll pull the trigger, why? You care too much what everyone thinks about you. Want some peace file and get on with it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't think you are being selfish.

Either your wife is being selfish or she has low self esteem when it comes to getting out into the world and getting a job.

What sort of degree did she get? What is the major?

What you and she are going through is common for women who are SAHM's (stay at home mom). Life spans are a lot longer then they were in the 'old days'. A SAHM generally has half her life left after the children are grown. I can understand that it must be hard to have to start from scratch in a career after all that time. But I think i needs to be done.

You need to check the divorce laws where you live. In some states in the USA, after 20 years of marriage, in a situation like yours, it's life-long alimony. She would also get 50% of all assets to include your retirement. Since we have no idea where you life, it's impossible for us to give you any input on this. You should be able to find a lot of info via an internet search. You might also want to talk to an attorney to find out what divorce would look like for you.

Unless you live where you would not be stuck paying her life-long alimony, I don't think that divorcing her at this point is a good idea. You would simply still be "a slave", just not in the same home with her.

Have you ever asked her how she would feel if you decided now that since you are done raising your daughter you don't have to work and earn an income anymore?

What might be best at this time is for you to find a way to encourage her to do something to earn an income. She is being very unrealistic. Do you think that you could get her to go to marriage counseling with you? If you do, make sure it's a woman counselor as she would probably only be open to hearing another woman say that you are not being selfish and that she needs to new career now. If she balks about going to a counselor, tell her that you want to discuss this with her and the counselor and if the counselor says that you are being unreasonable and selfish you will drop the topic.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Not said:


> There is no valid reason for her to not be working and you having that expectation is not selfish. I do wonder if she’s afraid to put herself out into the workforce, she’s never done it and I’m guessing it might seem a bit intimidating for her.
> 
> You don’t say anything about the rest of the relationship? Do you love each other? Are you affectionate with each other? Is there anything left between you two worth fighting for?


You are right, she is scared of it and very self defeating about it, and she does sometimes communicate that when we talk. Talks invariably tend towards me being unreasonable at best for expecting her to work, she raised our child and that I must not value that sacrifice, and/or offering to deliver pizza or flip burgers if that's really what I want. If I try to enumerate her talents and education and suggest things that sound worthy of her skills and time, everything is always shutdown as "no jobs there", "they don't hire women who've had babies", "they'll only hire millennials for that", there's an exhausting list.

Our relationship apart from this subject is actually pretty ok. We do have conflicts, but they are the exception and not the rule. She's uncommonly beautiful and smart (yes I tell her this) in an out-of-my-league sort of way. If we did split over the working issue, there's no way I'd ever date or marry a more beautiful woman. Deep down, she may feel that ought to be enough for me (don't know). But for me it's a self-respect issue. I do feel like where we once were working together as a team, I am now working for her and I'm not ok with it. I would ultimately split over it unless I come to the realization that I'm overlooking something critical in my thinking.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> What does contributing equal effort mean to you? If salaries aren't a main factor, what bothers you about how she spends her time? Granted, I do feel your above statement is reasonable. But I'd be curious to understand more of your perspective around this - and then what sparks reaction between you.
> 
> I don't think this is simply a matter of choosing option (A) or (B)... there's no doubt other choices here, yet to be discovered between you both.
> 
> For context, given that I'm a random on the interwebz, Batman and I don't have children so I can't provide any insight to parenthood. We both work and I'm also studying.


I say that salaries don't matter in the sense that how much she makes is not particularly relevant to me. One of the self defeating things she will sometimes say is that she'll only earn a third of what I do at best (at least at first), so why bother? I say to her salary doesn't matter, only that she works, and that even if it's just a third that would still double our disposable income changing our lives by quite a lot. Basically, I'm used to saying "salary doesn't matter" to clarify that I don't expect her to meet or exceed my income.

I'm not sure there are other options actually, at least not that I have any control over (there is the 3rd option C that she starts a career). There are other steps along the way towards option A (counseling at least) which may provide an off-ramp, but that off-ramp would have to lead to either option B (I realize I'm wrong), or option C (she starts her career, but I have no control over this one). Perhaps there are other end-games I'm not considering.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> What was your wife's childhood like?


Pretty awful. She was well provided for by an upper middle class family, but that's about all the positive you could say. Alcoholic parents, openly unfaithful father. No warmth in that house that I could detect all those years ago She was dealt a real crap set of cards on that front.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> You are right, she is scared of it and very self defeating about it, and she does sometimes communicate that when we talk. Talks invariably tend towards me being unreasonable at best for expecting her to work, she raised our child and that I must not value that sacrifice, and/or offering to deliver pizza or flip burgers if that's really what I want. If I try to enumerate her talents and education and suggest things that sound worthy of her skills and time, everything is always shutdown as "no jobs there", "they don't hire women who've had babies", "they'll only hire millennials for that", there's an exhausting list.
> 
> Our relationship apart from this subject is actually pretty ok. We do have conflicts, but they are the exception and not the rule. She's uncommonly beautiful and smart (yes I tell her this) in an out-of-my-league sort of way. If we did split over the working issue, there's no way I'd ever date or marry a more beautiful woman. Deep down, she may feel that ought to be enough for me (don't know). But for me it's a self-respect issue. I do feel like where we once were working together as a team, I am now working for her and I'm not ok with it. I would ultimately split over it unless I come to the realization that I'm overlooking something critical in my thinking.


Does she have any female friends for family members who work? I wonder if any of them could encourage her.

Might she be interested in doing volunteer work? For example volunteering at a hospital or some community organization? Maybe this could be a stepping stone for her.

I understand your feeling that this is self-respect issue. Over the next 20 years of your lives you both will need to save for your retirement. This should not be completely on your shoulders while she lives a life of leisure. 

What would happen to her if you become ill or get hit by the beer truck?


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

3Xnocharm said:


> I also do not believe that you are wrong in your thinking. I can’t understand why she would just want to be home all day, doing basically nothing. I mean, if she’s going to be home, why would she not do all of the cooking and all of the cleaning? She has no children to look after while she is home all day. What is the point? I don’t know, it just doesn’t sound like she is much of an actual partner in the current dynamic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you for your thoughs. I'm actually not entirely sure I'd be happy with a purely domestic partner, not in our empty nesting years anyway. I've never seen that modeled for me. But I agree that it would be a better situation.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Tilted 1 said:


> Your FWB/Roommates, yes Divorce and your daughter will get it in time when she married. But I don't think you'll pull the trigger, why? You care too much what everyone thinks about you. Want some peace file and get on with it.


Fair enough, I can sometimes suffer from "peace at all costs". But I also can stand firm when it matters and am trying to figure out if this matters as much as I think it does. I sincerely hope you are wrong in your prediction.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> I say that salaries don't matter in the sense that how much she makes is not particularly relevant to me. One of the self defeating things she will sometimes say is that she'll only earn a third of what I do at best (at least at first), so why bother? I say to her salary doesn't matter, only that she works, and that even if it's just a third that would still double our disposable income changing our lives by quite a lot. Basically, I'm used to saying "salary doesn't matter" to clarify that I don't expect her to meet or exceed my income.
> 
> I'm not sure there are other options actually, at least not that I have any control over (there is the 3rd option C that she starts a career). There are other steps along the way towards option A (counseling at least) which may provide an off-ramp, but that off-ramp would have to lead to either option B (I realize I'm wrong), or option C (she starts her career, but I have no control over this one). Perhaps there are other end-games I'm not considering.


I don't think you're overlooking anything critical from what you have shared.

The rebuttals about hiring millennials and such may have some truth to it... depending on what roles she would be considering. There's a chance that she may need to take a course, update her qualifications, and/or approach things differently (such as starting her own business, or discovering other avenues of income). Certainly with employment, unfortunately the longer she leaves it, the harder it will be to navigate; both in terms of her self-esteem and being relevant.

Although you have mentioned that if she contributed financially, it could change your lives by quite a lot, how would you feel if she were volunteering her time? Is it about contributing to the household financially would increase your respect for her and decrease resentment, with her own confidence likely increasing too - or is it about her contributing in some way, period. I know that she has been busy raising your daughter, but now it sounds like there's opportunity for her to contribute in other ways; whether financial, or within the community. I am curious how you feel about this? In addition, sometimes volunteering can provide relevant experience towards employment. But she needs to be aligned with contributing in a new way could be positive for both herself and the marriage. Sorry if you have addressed this, but is she open to counseling? Have you ever just expressed this to her: 'But for me it's a self-respect issue. I do feel like where we once were working together as a team, I am now working for her and I'm not ok with it.'


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

It is completely unfair for one partner to sit lounging at home, while the other partner does all the work to earn a living. What in the world makes her think that she is so entitled? So she raised a child, so what? Lots of us have done so. (some of us have even done it on our own while working full-time) It never crossed my mind that that made me entitled to someone else to take care of me for the rest of my life. 

There isn’t really a middle ground here, except for maybe her trying to work part time? I’m really not sure what to advise you here, her excuses are completely ridiculous, and it makes her sound like a spoiled child. 


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> Fair enough, I can sometimes suffer from "peace at all costs". But I also can stand firm when it matters and am *trying to figure out if this matters as much as I think it does*. I sincerely hope you are wrong in your prediction.


This is why it matters: _'But for me it's a self-respect issue. I do feel like where we once were working together as a team, I am now working for her and I'm not ok with it.'_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> And then there's the effect on our daughter if I even brought up divorce. It would surely reach her that "dad was bailing", even if it was more of a bluff than anything else. And if I actually served papers - yikes - surely that would tear our daughter to pieces.


I wouldn't assume how your daughter would view this. She's a grown woman. It's actually something you could talk with her about; I don't mean potential divorce, but to understand what her views of a relationship might be for her in terms of roles and priorities. There may be opportunity for you to mentor the value of her being financially independent. Just a thought.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think you are being selfish.
> 
> Either your wife is being selfish or she has low self esteem when it comes to getting out into the world and getting a job.
> 
> ...


It's a Bachelor of Digital Arts.

I've not seen that acronym before. I hear you on how hard it must be for SAHMs. I try to be cognizant of this always when we discuss, but even so I have no doubt there are levels of fear here that I can't imagine.

We live in Washington state. I have wanted to consult with someone about the financial implications of divorce, but it's felt like a line I'm hesitant to cross. Got to pay a lawyer. That means I have to hide a little money. That means I have to be a little sneaky. But I am going to have to get over that. This forum is my first attempt to reach outside my head about this.

Regarding assets in a divorce outcome, I'm perfectly fine with 50/50 including current retirement assets (seems only fair). It's my future earnings and future retirement savings I'd want to protect. I'm also fine with alimony, just not life-long. The idea that I may already be locked into life-long support is terrifying, but I have indeed wondered if that isn't already the case. One possible scenario I've imagined (should it come to divorce) is to relocate for that purpose. As the only one working, we'd kind of have to go wherever my job is. I can work at a more traditional company in my field and get myself hired in another state if mine is hyper-punitive with alimony. That's an even more clandestine move that I'm uncomfortable with, but I'm admittedly not above if the alternative were really as bad as I could imagine.

Hah no, I've never asked what she'd do if I stopped working. But I can say I've day dreamed about doing exactly that to see if it kick started anything. When we talk, I have instead framed a similar question "What if I died? What would you do then, and can you imagine doing that now?" Answers to these kinds of questions lie beyond the boundary where these discussions go emotional.

That's good advice about a female counselor. I do think that's a step I need to take and I will look for a female specifically.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Does she have any female friends for family members who work? I wonder if any of them could encourage her.
> 
> Might she be interested in doing volunteer work? For example volunteering at a hospital or some community organization? Maybe this could be a stepping stone for her.
> 
> ...


Her whole family works, but she is estranged from all of them (bad childhood). Has friends that do, but I'm reluctant to reveal our problems to our friends. More comfortable with counselor here.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> I wouldn't assume how your daughter would view this. She's a grown woman. It's actually something you could talk with her about; I don't mean potential divorce, but to understand what her views of a relationship might be for her in terms of roles and priorities. There may be opportunity for you to mentor the value of her being financially independent. Just a thought.


This = brilliant. Another great idea from this thread. We're close. I'm pretty sure I know her views here as she's very excited about her career path (still schooling but almost done). But yeah, would be good to reinforce independence in her relationships without disclosing marriage problems. If I have one super-power, it's discretion.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> I don't think you're overlooking anything critical from what you have shared.
> 
> The rebuttals about hiring millennials and such may have some truth to it... depending on what roles she would be considering. There's a chance that she may need to take a course, update her qualifications, and/or approach things differently (such as starting her own business, or discovering other avenues of income). Certainly with employment, unfortunately the longer she leaves it, the harder it will be to navigate; both in terms of her self-esteem and being relevant.
> 
> Although you have mentioned that if she contributed financially, it could change your lives by quite a lot, how would you feel if she were volunteering her time? Is it about contributing to the household financially would increase your respect for her and decrease resentment, with her own confidence likely increasing too - or is it about her contributing in some way, period. I know that she has been busy raising your daughter, but now it sounds like there's opportunity for her to contribute in other ways; whether financial, or within the community. I am curious how you feel about this? In addition, sometimes volunteering can provide relevant experience towards employment. But she needs to be aligned with contributing in a new way could be positive for both herself and the marriage. Sorry if you have addressed this, but is she open to counseling? Have you ever just expressed this to her: 'But for me it's a self-respect issue. I do feel like where we once were working together as a team, I am now working for her and I'm not ok with it.'


I'm fully on board with taking additional courses, even her getting another degree (as long as it's something likely to result in employment) and have expressed this often. The way I see it, investing a bunch of money in additional education is nothing compared to the earning power of two working people with no dependents. Starting a business works too, but one has to have a head for business (I certainly don't - I don't know what that's like!). It would need to go farther than a side-hustle for a few bucks. I suspect she's not the entrepreneurial type, but I wouldn't want to put her in a box and would absolutely support her trying it out.

About volunteering her time instead, I'm very supportive of that as something done over and above one's job, between jobs, or in retirement. She's never suggested doing that in lieu of employment and I'm not particularly keen on it (perhaps my view is too rigid). That's interesting that it might lead to increased experience and confidence, which I'd classify as something done between jobs. If she volunteered without working for an extended period of years or indefinitely, I'm pretty sure I'd feel like we were in the same place: I'm working so she can do as she likes. I guess that means for me it's not about her specific choice of optional endeavors, it's about her being independent.

I don't think I've used exactly those words before about being a team (I write so much better than I speak). I will try next time we discuss.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Washington state divorce info. It's a community property state meaning that everything earned/acquired during the marriage belongs to both of you and is generally split 50/50 in divorce. Sole property are assets that you brought into the marriage or inherited and did not mingle with community assets. Sole property belongs only to the person who owned it before the marriage or who inherited it.

Community vs sole property








Washington Marital Property Laws - FindLaw


FindLaw's overview of marital property laws in Washington, which is a community property state. Learn more by visiting FindLaw's Washington Family Laws section.




statelaws.findlaw.com





Washington state alimony and length of marriage








Spousal Support


The alimony lawyers at S.L. Pitts in Seattle, Washington have decades of experience helping spouses navigate this complicated issue successfully.




www.stellapittslaw.com





Google search strings:
Washington state community property
Washington state alimony and length of marriage


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I'm fully on board with taking additional courses, even her getting another degree (as long as it's something likely to result in employment) and have expressed this often. The way I see it, investing a bunch of money in additional education is nothing compared to the earning power of two working people with no dependents. Starting a business works too, but one has to have a head for business (I certainly don't - I don't know what that's like!). It would need to go farther than a side-hustle for a few bucks. I suspect she's not the entrepreneurial type, but I wouldn't want to put her in a box and would absolutely support her trying it out.
> 
> A*bout volunteering her time instead, I'm very supportive of that as something done over and above one's job, between jobs, or in retirement. She's never suggested doing that in lieu of employment and I'm not particularly keen on it (perhaps my view is too rigid).* That's interesting that it might lead to increased experience and confidence, which I'd classify as something done between jobs. If she volunteered without working for an extended period of years or indefinitely, I'm pretty sure I'd feel like we were in the same place: I'm working so she can do as she likes. I guess that means for me it's not about her specific choice of optional endeavors, it's about her being independent.
> 
> I don't think I've used exactly those words before about being a team (I write so much better than I speak). I will try next time we discuss.


In your situation, volunteering could be a way for your wife to build confidence in the work place. I would not suggest it in the long run, but if she did it for several months she might learn that she likes working and interfacing with others. She might even find something she'd like to do as a career.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I've not seen that acronym before. I hear you on how hard it must be for SAHMs. I try to be cognizant of this always when we discuss, but even so I have no doubt there are levels of fear here that I can't imagine.


We use a lot of abbreviations and acronyms here on TAM. Here's a link to a thread that lists many of them and their meanings.









Common Message Board Abbreviations & Acronyms


Need to put together a list of common abbreviations for people new to online message boards.... here is a start: AAMOF = as a matter of fact AP = Affair Partner ASAP = as soon as possible ASAP = as soon as possible b/c = because BAK = back at keyboard BBFN = bye bye for now BBL = be back later...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I've not seen that acronym before. I hear you on how hard it must be for SAHMs. I try to be cognizant of this always when we discuss, but even so I have no doubt there are levels of fear here that I can't imagine.


It's a fear that she needs to get over.

When your daughter was in school all day, what did your wife do with her time?



ejay said:


> We live in Washington state. I have wanted to consult with someone about the financial implications of divorce, but it's felt like a line I'm hesitant to cross. Got to pay a lawyer. That means I have to hide a little money. That means I have to be a little sneaky. But I am going to have to get over that. This forum is my first attempt to reach outside my head about this.


Many attorneys will give free half hour to hour appointment to review your situation in hopes that you hire them. You can get a lot of info on the internet too. I posted some links for you in a post above. 



ejay said:


> Regarding assets in a divorce outcome, I'm perfectly fine with 50/50 including current retirement assets (seems only fair). It's my future earnings and future retirement savings I'd want to protect. I'm also fine with alimony, just not life-long. The idea that I may already be locked into life-long support is terrifying, but I have indeed wondered if that isn't already the case. One possible scenario I've imagined (should it come to divorce) is to relocate for that purpose. As the only one working, we'd kind of have to go wherever my job is. I can work at a more traditional company in my field and get myself hired in another state if mine is hyper-punitive with alimony. That's an even more clandestine move that I'm uncomfortable with, but I'm admittedly not above if the alternative were really as bad as I could imagine.


California is notoriously brutal with life-long alimony after 20 years of marriage. Generally the idea of alimony is so that both spouses end up with near equal income. However, in more recent years, California has started to recognize a requirement for the spouse receiving alimony needing to become as self supporting as possible. Once they are self-supporting (as much as possible) alimony can be re-calculated. And, if the receiving spouse does not make a reasonable effort to be self supporting, the paying spouse can sue to have alimony completely stopped. For this provision to apply, it has to be called out in the divorce agreement. I forget the name of the statement and could look it up if you would like. More and more states are requiring that the receiving spouse make reasonable efforts to become self supporting. Many states have rehabilitative alimony that allows for alimony for a shorter period that gives the lower earning spouse time to get education, training, etc. After that period, alimony ends.



ejay said:


> Hah no, I've never asked what she'd do if I stopped working. But I can say I've day dreamed about doing exactly that to see if it kick started anything. When we talk, I have instead framed a similar question "What if I died? What would you do then, and can you imagine doing that now?" Answers to these kinds of questions lie beyond the boundary where these discussions go emotional.


These are things that you can discuss with a counselor present. It might boil down to you having to give her an ultimatum. Perhaps the counselor can help you figure out how to do this. This would be after some counseling sessions and the counselor tells her that she needs to get a job. Then if she bulks, you might need to give an ultimatum. If you divorce her, she'll have to get a job because I'll bet she'd have a hard time living on about 40% of your income.



ejay said:


> That's good advice about a female counselor. I do think that's a step I need to take and I will look for a female specifically.


Good.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ejay said:


> I guess that means for me it's not about her specific choice of optional endeavors, it's about her being independent.


I would suggest this is part of your discussion too. I feel that I understand more where you are coming from. You want her to be able to be independent, and to contribute financially (with reasonable time and methods to get there) for your household, alongside you. She is only in her 40s and still has the opportunity to commence a path for the next so many years. That is reasonable and, in my view, not a selfish ask. Given your daughter has been out of high school for some time now, it may be challenging for your wife to adjust to the idea that she needs to work if it has not been previously expected, combined with potential doubt, and lack of need (even if that's her own perception).

Your view echoes that of my husband. It wouldn't fly with him if I wasn't also contributing. I know that respect and attraction would wain if this wasn't the case. My views are aligned with his, but I am writing about his view in order to relate to your perspective. I know that he wants me to be able to hold my own in this world, just as he does. The intention is that we each contribute for our lifestyle as a couple, as well as for our place in the world, if that makes sense? Sure, there's moments where circumstances of employment and/or income can change, such as with the current landscape, for example, where his work has dried up while I am still working. However, he is pursuing opportunities, between taking care of home projects, which is still him contributing for us. And I gotta say, he's focused with getting on with stuff..! He's not playing video games all day or indulging hobbies; he's doing what he can, in different ways. And to give context, he did not have good role models growing up, and is self-motivated because he's had to be. Generally, he has little tolerance for excuses.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> It is completely unfair for one partner to sit lounging at home, while the other partner does all the work to earn a living. What in the world makes her think that she is so entitled? So she raised a child, so what? Lots of us have done so. (some of us have even done it on our own while working full-time) It never crossed my mind that that made me entitled to someone else to take care of me for the rest of my life.


I was thinking of your comment, and the women around me in life. Most are working mothers of two-parent households. Which makes sense that is who is among my circle, as I work and don't have kids. My dearest friend is a single mother, who left an abusive relationship while pregnant, studied towards a different degree to change fields, then supported herself and her daughter working full-time. She put herself in the position of earning a decent salary, and a few years ago, had her own home built. It has not been an easy journey for her, but I respect the heck out of her. And tell her this nearly every time we talk.

A few years ago, a different friend who I used to have a laugh with, had barely worked, was married without children and on the brink of divorce when she asked me, '..but who is going to take care of me?' I responded, 'You need to take care of you.' And, that was one of the last times we spoke.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

You want to divorce your wife over this? She's raised your child, she's been a good mum and and a good wife and now you want to "sack" her? Did you write a contract specifying she had to get a job once she raised your daughter? Of course she thinks that her job is finished... she's done her bit. Just love her the way she is and for what's she's done and for what she's contributed to your lovely family. And one word of advice: don't talk to you daughter. She will hate you for this. Been there.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife didn't raise your daughter all by herself. Since your daughter is now grown, does that mean that you get to quit work and lollygag all day like your wife does? Your wife isn't contributing anything that would make your life better or easier. You two are living like roommates except you're the only one paying all of the bills.

How is your sex life?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> You want to divorce your wife over this? She's raised your child, she's been a good mum and and a good wife and now you want to "sack" her? Did you write a contract specifying she had to get a job once she raised your daughter? Of course she thinks that her job is finished... she's done her bit. Just love her the way she is and for what's she's done and for what she's contributed to your lovely family. And one word of advice: don't talk to you daughter. She will hate you for this. Been there.


OMG really? Because they had a child together, you think she should just be able to relax and not contribute to their life together forevermore for the next DECADES? With this line of thinking, then, WHEN IS IT HIS TURN??????? He's _done his bit_ and totally and completely provided financially for the family by having to work a job. When does he get to quit his job, float through life do what he wants, garden, relax, watch movies, etc.?

They each did their bit. He WORKED. She did the SAHM bit.

IA, why do you believe that just because someone was a SAHM to one child in the past that excuses them from working for the rest of their life??

Why doesn't working and providing for your family while raising a child not get the same reward once the child is raised?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> With this line of thinking, then, WHEN IS IT HIS TURN??????? He's _done his bit_ and totally and completely provided financially for the family by having to work a job. When does he get to quit his job, float through life do what he wants, garden, relax, watch movies, etc.?


They established precise roles in the family and he was ok with it. Now he is not ok with it anymore. I get his frustration, but he had the cushy job... sorry, raising a child is much harder than any job.



Livvie said:


> They each did their bit. He WORKED. She did the SAHM bit.


It looks like she gets to retire before him... tough ****.



Livvie said:


> IA, why do you believe that just because someone was a SAHM to one child in the past that excuses them from working for the rest of their life??


yes... as I said, I get the OP's frustration and why he thinks it's unfair, but divorcing his wife, the mother of his daughter, over this? Madness. I think the OP should indeed check his selfishness.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Why doesn't working and providing for your family while raising a child not get the same reward once the child is raised?


And, why is being a SAHM considered a "sacrifice" ? In my experience, many women "live their dream".... 

I'm afraid the bottom line here is, your wife will continue to nurse her phobias, or live her dream, at your expense, whether you live there or not. That is, unless the place where you live actually has developed a modicum of fairness.
Unfortunately, when this was me ? The only thing divorce would have done for me is force me to work harder to pay for two houses.

It will also alienate your daughter. For years, maybe permanently.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Look into Texas as an employment possibility. Specifically - their alimony requirements.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TJW said:


> And, why is being a SAHM considered a "sacrifice" ? In my experience, many women "live their dream"....


She sacrificed her career to be a SAHM... so, she's made her sacrifice and now her husband wants her to go back to work. What job is she going to get in her late forties with no work experience? If the OP divorces her, he will still be working to pay alimony, etc... it's just pointless. He should have thought about it before. Now it's too late. 

Also, I don't think they are having a dead bedroom situation? I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> They established precise roles in the family and he was ok with it. Now he is not ok with it anymore. I get his frustration, but he had the cushy job... sorry, raising a child is much harder than any job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could not disagree with you more. I disagree with you to infinity.

Their roles were what they were when their one child was growing up. They don't have a child growing up anymore. 

No, being a SAHM isn't "harder than any job". Yeah I know what I'm talking about. I was a SAHM to two boys, done with a health issue as well. Then, I was a working person. I've done both. 

I can't believe you called this OPs service to the family as SOLE provider CUSHY.

I think you have some personal issues that are clouding your ability to see OPs issue in any kind of realistic way.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I think all that talk on her part really shows that she is scared of entering the job market. And there are many reasons why, but does not mean you just give up and live off someone else the rest of your life.

She would need to adjust her expectations. She might have a degree, but it is old (specially in anything digital), and she has no work experience. She won't start joba a project manager or something like this. She may have to start at low salary at the low level, and just continue going up slowly.

But also with her degree I would assume there is room to start her own company. It would include a lot of work, promotioin and getting her own clients. Is she up to it?

Another option - she just gets any job, even if not related to her work. Put her foot in the door. After a while, while she builds some working experience, she can move to different job, more interesting to her.

10 years ago I myself hired woman in her forties, who spend most of her adult life rasing children. She was educated, and the job was below her qualiflication, but she was quite enthusiastic about doing something again. She still works for me, and I can not even imagine what would I do without her. The job is NOT in her field, she had to adjust and she did.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I also do not believe that you are wrong in your thinking. I can’t understand why she would just want to be home all day, doing basically nothing. I mean, if she’s going to be home, why would she not do all of the cooking and all of the cleaning? She has no children to look after while she is home all day. What is the point? I don’t know, it just doesn’t sound like she is much of an actual partner in the current dynamic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This post in spades. So you take care of all financial responsibilities and take care of yourself at home as well. She sits on her ass and only does what is required for herself?

No partnership here. You have a big woman baby on your hands.

Mrs. Conan and I chose to have her stay home to raise our boys while I took care of the finances by working my ass off.

During the years our boys were young, she would occasionally get part time work as long as it didn't interfere with our home life.

After the boys were pretty much done and moving out, she might have taken a little break and just done some charity work and improved her physical fitness but she soon started working again and we are currently working as a team.

All throughout the time that she was staying at home and even when she worked part time, I never lifted a finger in our house aside from maintenance.

She did all the cooking, cleaning and chores to keep a home tidy and running nicely on top of raising our barbarians and almost never denying me sex.

We now share the household stuff with me doing about 95% of the cooking and shopping while she still does the cleaning and tidying.

We have a marriage and share the load.

You have a big baby in an adult body that you are responsible for housing.

I'm not discounting love and the years you have put in together along with the daughter you share but love is also actions in my book.

She needs a swift kick in the ass.

I hope you can get a stiff enough spine to do it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I could not disagree with you more. I disagree with you to infinity.


we agree to disagree...



Livvie said:


> I can't believe you called this OPs service to the family as SOLE provider CUSHY.


I can't believe you are so dismissive of the OP's wife job...



Livvie said:


> I think you have some personal issues that are clouding your ability to see OPs issue in any kind of realistic way.


There are no personal issues... as someone else said, she could help more in the house now... getting a job? She's already sacrificed her career once to be a SAHM... why didn't the OP stay at home with his daughter if it's so easy?

Livvie:* Would you divorce your husband over this? *


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> we agree to disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but what do you propose? that 40 year old woman - still pretty young and far from retirement - just stays home forever doing nothing? Why? As I said earlier, I hired someone like that ten years ago, below her qualifications, and not big money, but eager to work. Can not imagine my business without her now, with of course more money than at the beginning. It is possible. women can come back to work, they just have to adjust their expectation to wats feasible and go from there. there is still time to move up.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> but what do you propose? that 40 year old woman - still pretty young and far from retirement - just stays home forever doing nothing? Why? As I said earlier, I hired someone like that ten years ago, below her qualifications, and not big money, but eager to work. Can not imagine my business without her now, with of course more money than at the beginning. It is possible. women can come back to work, they just have to adjust their expectation to wats feasible and go from there. there is still time to move up.


You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?


I'll answer for myself. I never would have been partnered with someone like this to begin with. I require someone putting in effort like I do.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'll answer for myself. I never would have been partnered with someone like this to begin with. I require someone putting in effort like I do.


What kind of logic is that? How would you know at the beginning that your partner would do something like that? There is no mention of the fact she didn't put the same effort as the OP in their marriage...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> What kind of logic is that? How would you know at the beginning that your partner would do something like that? There is no mention of the fact she didn't put the same effort as the OP in their marriage...


it is incredibly easy to discern if you're paying attention to it which OP might not have been. From your previous post I surmise that you have a problem detecting these things as well.

Regardless, I sure as hell wouldn't be putting up with it right now.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> it is incredibly easy to discern if you're paying attention to it which OP might not have been. From your previous post I surmise that you have a problem detecting these things as well.
> 
> Regardless, I sure as hell wouldn't be putting up with it right now.


ok, I'm curious to see what the OP has to say about this... maybe I'm dense.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> ok, I'm curious to see what the OP has to say about this... maybe I'm dense.


I don't know but you have put up with a magnitude more than I ever would have in my entire life.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I don't know but you have put up with a magnitude more than I ever would have in my entire life.


Correct, but it was fine for the first 15 years... maybe I'm not as perspicacious as other people...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Correct, but it was fine for the first 15 years... maybe I'm not as perspicacious as other people...


Maybe not but your sesquipedalian language is up to par.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Maybe not but your sesquipedalian language is up to par.


Thanks... English is not my first language...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> we agree to disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The OP contributed to the marriage by being at home with the child, just like the OP contributed to the marriage by going to work everyday and earning all of the money in the marriage.

Honestly, once that _child_ got to high school, OPs wife could and should have started contributing financially to the partnership. And, she's not even doing all of the household maintenance items, either! What a freeloader.

Yes, indeed, I'd divorce over this. Especially because OP has tried to discuss this with her many times and she doesn't give a ****. It's the not giving a **** and the selfishness I'd divorce over.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?


Reread the following paragraph:


ejay said:


> She did not want to be a mom. In our early years she even suggested we divorce and I take sole custody (we had some big early problems, but we got better). I say that just for context. She was and is a good mom, but never wanted the full-time role. I assumed she wanted a career. I chose my career, and *I was open to whichever road she chose for our daughter (mom or career). She chose mom,* and managed to squeeze in a BA during 3 of those years while our daughter was around 5 to 8.


She wasn't sacrificing her career - she didn't have a career and didn't want a career. This woman has never wanted to work. She didn't even want the work of raising her daughter but it beat the alternative of her actually having to get a job. Plus, he has always worked from home which would make it easier when raising a child.

The only thing she contributes to the marriage is doing the shopping for which she demands he do the dishes. See, she's all about her.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> we agree to disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In a heartbeat. I’m not Livvie but no way would i tolerate a man who just decided he was never going to work. Hell no. 

IA, given your own situation, I don’t feel this is your strong suit to give advice in, considering the lack of sex, partnership, and respect that you have been choosing to tolerate for all of these years from your own wife. I feel it’s wrong to encourage another person to tolerate the same. You should want better for yourself and certainly for others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Misery loves company.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?
> [/QUOTe





In Absentia said:


> You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?


I do not see anyone belittling her choices. Her situation is actually a tragedy for many women, who put their careers on hold, only to found themselves later behind their peers on job market, and not needed anymore at home. 
But pouting won't help. The kids is grown up. This is acutally opportunity for her to go out and discover herself again, meet new people, make new friends, make some money. These things actually feel good. Yes, it will be stresful at the beginning to get a job, but that's life, she is not the only one. Again, she needs to adjust expectations for that first job. 
The women with grown children are actually one of the best potential employees: no more sick children, leaving work for school functions or sick kids, etc. They are free, responsible and eager to learn and start new phase in their life. If you treat them right, these will be your best employees. And that's how she needs to sell herself on interviews.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

This isn’t sounding good at all. I can understand the fear of entering the job market for the first time so late in life but the way she’s digging her heels in on this topic says a lot about the direction she’s obviously heading with this, which is her way or the highway. I’d divorce over this. 

I’m in Indiana and I can tell you OP that this state is one of the best states in the nation for a man to divorce in. No alimony. The most she would get is a max of three years maintenance support while she trains in her new chosen line of work and she’d have no choice but to choose _something_. With a degree she may not even get three years. Avoid Colorado like the plague.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> My dearest friend is a single mother, who left an abusive relationship while pregnant, studied towards a different degree to change fields, then supported herself and her daughter working full-time. She put herself in the position of earning a decent salary, and a few years ago, had her own home built. It has not been an easy journey for her, but I respect the heck out of her. And tell her this nearly every time we talk.


This is a near perfect description of my own mom. She pursued a degree while raising me alone, somehow always managing to make enough money to support the two of us.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> You want to divorce your wife over this? She's raised your child, she's been a good mum and and a good wife and now you want to "sack" her? Did you write a contract specifying she had to get a job once she raised your daughter? Of course she thinks that her job is finished... she's done her bit. Just love her the way she is and for what's she's done and for what she's contributed to your lovely family.


This perspective has always been present in my internal deliberations. She has also expressed something like this during one of our many disagreements about the subject over the last 5 years. We had no explicit agreement about what we'd do after our daughter was grown. Crazy as it sounds that subject never really came up until our daughter leaving for college was approaching on the horizon.

I can't escape that I don't yet agree with this perspective though. I feel like I can revere motherhood as heroic while simultaneously having the expectation that she plow the field with me until we can both retire together. If we were just 5 years away, or well off enough that my own work could also be considered optional, that'd be different to me. But we're 25 years away, halfway through our productive years at best. I am sincerely looking for flaws in this thinking though.



In Absentia said:


> And one word of advice: don't talk to you daughter. She will hate you for this. Been there.


This is super scary to me and is the reason for much of my caution. I do talk to my daughter often about lots of things, but never about marriage disagreements. The thinking was to talk to her about independence in her relationships, a value I suspect she already shares given her current course and choices so far in life.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife didn't raise your daughter all by herself. Since your daughter is now grown, does that mean that you get to quit work and lollygag all day like your wife does? Your wife isn't contributing anything that would make your life better or easier. You two are living like roommates except you're the only one paying all of the bills.


I do feel this way.



Blondilocks said:


> How is your sex life?


It's inconsistent but it's still very much there. Probably our biggest struggle here is that she views sex as something you can do to resolve a fight, and I view sex as something I don't want with a person who is currently angry with me at that moment. I think both views are valid, but it does create some inconsistency.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> You have a point of course. But I can see a lot of belittling of what she did and also the sacrifice she made. She's done her part, and a big part at that... I'll ask you too.... would you divorce your partner over this?


I’ll answer. I absolutely would have divorced my husband if I had had the situation where he decided to stay home after our child was an adult without regard to what was financially best for our family. Why? Because he would have been totally focused on “him” and not “us”. 

I didn’t have a marriage like that. We both helped financially support our family from the beginning. My husband’s salary was four or five times what mine was but I needed the flexibility my career gave me when our child was growing up. After those child-care years were over, I was able to take on more responsibility and earn more. But never once did I consider what might be best for “me“. It was always about what was best for “us“.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

My mom stayed home and never went to work after we grew up. And they never had a lot of money. The thing is, my mom takes care of my dad 100%. And I mean he is helpless without her in regards to things around the house. So it wouldn’t be unreasonable for my dad to make her go to work, and if that happened he would have to do 50% of the house work. Neither of them want to do the other so it works out. 


Here is my question.... does she have spending money? Or a budget? Who pays for things? Is it possible that you start being super controlling with money and are super cheap and when she asks why, tell her because she doesn’t work. 

Something to think about is alimony is based out of lifestyle.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Personally I think she needs to be told to stop being a lazy ass and go to work like the rest is the adults. It doesn’t matter if she makes 1/4th your income. Imagine a 25% pay increase... hell yea I would take that.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> 10 years ago I myself hired woman in her forties, who spend most of her adult life rasing children. She was educated, and the job was below her qualiflication, but she was quite enthusiastic about doing something again. She still works for me, and I can not even imagine what would I do without her. The job is NOT in her field, she had to adjust and she did.


I sincerely hope my wife comes across someone like you. This sounds like a wonderful scenario.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> They established precise roles in the family and he was ok with it. Now he is not ok with it anymore. I get his frustration, but he had the cushy job... *sorry, raising a child is much harder than any job.*
> 
> It looks like she gets to retire before him... tough ****.
> 
> yes... as I said, I get the OP's frustration and why he thinks it's unfair, but divorcing his wife, the mother of his daughter, over this? Madness. I think the OP should indeed check his selfishness.


Having both been a SAHM for a few years and working/supporting my family the rest of the time i completely disagree that raising a child is much harder than any job. There are jobs that are much harder than raising a child.

Raising children is an important job, one of the most important ones there is. But it's no harder than many jobs.

I would have loved to just be a SAHM and have to raise only one child. Shoot I would have been happy to be a SAHM and raise all three of my children (My son and my 2 step children). That was so much easier than my demanding job... I'm a software engineer and project manager with a team of many developers who span many countries. Believe me raising kids is child's play by comparison. 

You think that the OP has an easy job, but you have no clue. You don't know what he does, how many hours a day he work, etc. Even if his job is easy, at least he is contributing to maintaining their lifestyle and saving for retirement. She's watching TV & eating bomboms basically. She is not keeping the house, or cooking for them both, etc.

From my experience, raising one child who has no serious disabilities is very easy, much less work than when I worked a full time job. 

During the years that his wife was raising their child she was pulling her weight in the relationship. However, that responsibility went way down once the child started school. Now that their child is grown, his wife is doing close to zero in they way of responsibilities in the relationship.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> I do not see anyone belittling her choices. Her situation is actually a tragedy for many women, who put their careers on hold, *only to found themselves later behind their peers on job market, and not needed anymore at home.*
> But pouting won't help. The kids is grown up. This is acutally opportunity for her to go out and discover herself again, meet new people, make new friends, make some money. These things actually feel good. Yes, it will be stresful at the beginning to get a job, but that's life, she is not the only one. Again, she needs to adjust expectations for that first job.
> The women with grown children are actually one of the best potential employees: no more sick children, leaving work for school functions or sick kids, etc. They are free, responsible and eager to learn and start new phase in their life. If you treat them right, these will be your best employees. And that's how she needs to sell herself on interviews.


The interesting thing is that I know women who were SAHM and then after the children were grown entered into jobs/careers that earn very well.

For example one who I know got a master's in information science (or something like that) in the last 3 years before her youngest finished high school. Her first job was as a librarian at a university. Her starting salary was $85,000. Before this she raise 2 children.

I know one who was in her 50's, went back to college for a couple of years for a masters. Then got a job in a legal aid office starting at $65,000. Before this she raised 6 children.

Another I know, at age 45, got a job with an organization that helps the disabled find jobs and teaches them to do their job. After a couple of years she was promoted to manager, her salary increased to about $65,000. Then after about 15 years of that she started consulting and teaching in her field at universities in our state and neighboring states. Before this she raise 3 children.

I could go on as I know a lot of SAHMs who have done very well getting back into the workforce.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Don't be sneaky. Be plain. There is no reason to hide what you are considering. In fact, it might actually help your marriage if she realizes that you are considering divorce. It might light a fire under her. I'm not suggesting you do it to manipulate her, but to show her that you're serious about this. She needs to know that you are so upset that you are considering divorce. Anything less is sneaky and unreasonable. You might also want to put some money into a separate account immediately. Be aware that she can do the same if she wants to. Again, no need to skulk around. Be integrous about your behavior.

It is difficult to start a career after spending 20 years as a homemaker. I have been a SAHM/SAHW for about 25 years. I homeschooled three children all the way through until they either started college or went to work. It is very hard to get into the job market after not working for years. I am back in school and working towards a BA in English with an emphasis on professional writing. Hopefully my age won't hold me back from developing a good career. Will I be making what my husband makes? It's highly unlikely. He has a long term career. I shouldn't expect to be where he is when I first start off and neither should your wife. She's being unrealistic. When she suggests "flipping burgers" or whatever else she responds with, tell her "yes," if that's what you want to do for work, go for it. She is using that line to manipulate you and try to make you feel bad about asking her to do what she apparently considers menial work.

I get it. I don't want to go to work at Burger King either. That's why I'm enrolled in university. That's why she enrolled in university. Now is her time to use her degree. If she doesn't like that one, maybe she could attend the community college for a couple of quarters to build some skills doing something she does like. There are lots of options available to her if she doesn't want to work in a low wage job that doesn't require skills. She has developed skills, and seriously, now may be the exact time for her to use them. Companies are looking for technical workers. If her skills are outdated, she can take a few classes to get back into the swing of things.

Agree that being a SAHM isn't the hardest job in the world. Being a parent is hard in many way, not only for the homemaker, but for both parents. Parenting is full time, whether you work outside the home or not. Homeschooling adds to the workload, that's for sure, but it's still not harder than what my husband does. He works his butt off for our family, always has. Saying what I do is harder is just plain rude and unrealistic.

My opinion is that you should keep at her about this. If she gets angry, let her be angry. She is using her anger to manipulate you. That is unfair. Stand your ground and let her rage until she sees you aren't backing down on what you want.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I can't escape that I don't yet agree with this perspective though. *I feel like I can revere motherhood as heroic while simultaneously having the expectation that she plow the field with me until we can both retire together.* If we were just 5 years away, or well off enough that my own work could also be considered optional, that'd be different to me. But we're 25 years away, halfway through our productive years at best. I am sincerely looking for flaws in this thinking though.


There is a fantasy that in previous generations women just stayed home and raised children and then had earned a life of leisure while their husband supported them after the children were grown. This was only true in wealthy families and during the 1950's .

Since the dawn of time, most women have worked just as hard as the men from dawn to dusk Men might have been out hunting and/or farming. But women were closer to home, raising their 8 children, feeding the farm animals, cultivating the kitchen garden, spinning cloth, tanning leather, cooking everything from scratch and canning. Oh, and scrubbing cloths down at the river's edge or in more modern times with writing washers (my mom used one of these for years). On top of this, during planting and harvest she and the children were out in the fields helping. This was pretty much how my extended family who live in other countries lived until very recently.

The idea that a woman's work it done when the children grow up is a fantasia that is pushed by some older TV shows.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> My mom stayed home and never went to work after we grew up. And they never had a lot of money. The thing is, my mom takes care of my dad 100%. And I mean he is helpless without her in regards to things around the house. So it wouldn’t be unreasonable for my dad to make her go to work, and if that happened he would have to do 50% of the house work. Neither of them want to do the other so it works out.


While that would be an improvement in terms of me feeling like we share a more equal burden moving forward, I'm personally not as interested in this setup and she is not either. My preference is for us to be more independent than that. For her part, she's not really interested in being a full-time mom or homemaker, fulfilled the former for our daughter and did that well, and now I'm honestly not sure what she wants out of life - even that can be a tense discussion depending on how it's approached.



Girl_power said:


> Here is my question.... does she have spending money? Or a budget? Who pays for things? Is it possible that you start being super controlling with money and are super cheap and when she asks why, tell her because she doesn’t work.


We have one checking account (joint) which receives all paychecks and from which we both spend, and we both are pretty good about staying within agreed upon spending limits, separate from recurring bills which I handle. We've always worked this way and rarely disagree about money (apart of course from whether or not she should earn).


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> ok, I'm curious to see what the OP has to say about this... maybe I'm dense.


When we married I had no expectation that she'd expect motherhood to be her final contribution to our future. We were not specific about it, but perhaps to both of us our view seemed self-evident.

I'm pretty intuitive and picked up on nothing to indicate this from her at the time, although I was a lot younger and more naive. However, I also apparently missed it completely while our daughter was growing up. Certainly squeezing in a BA while being mom was an indication she did have plans beyond SAHM at one time.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> 10 years ago I myself hired woman in her forties, who spend most of her adult life rasing children. She was educated, and the job was below her qualiflication, but she was quite enthusiastic about doing something again. She still works for me, and I can not even imagine what would I do without her. The job is NOT in her field, she had to adjust and she did.


Similar experience here. The recruiter sent me a few resumes, then contacted me with an additional candidate, admitting she was the 'wildcard / long shot' compared to the other applicants. She had been a SAHM for years without employment. Admittedly what really caught my attention, was part of her story of living overseas; relocating internationally to a few destinations as a family due to her husband's work. I felt this could demonstrate adaptability, and broad perspective. At the interview, her transparency about her story, what she had experienced, and why she applied, was both endearing and instilled confidence of the traits she could bring. The tasks of the role were then details that could be learned with support. She was offered the role, accepted, and confided that she didn't think she had a chance but applied nonetheless. She was an absolute star and stayed at the organization longer than I did. It was a big adjustment for her, but she adapted quickly. From (vague) memory the salary was around $65k. I'm aware that after that role, she went on to different work in which she earned more and with greater flexibility.

The point is - it's worth applying.
Playing piano, digital arts... the cultivation of creative minds can be valuable.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ok, since everybody seems to be disagreeing with me (so, I must be wrong) and also given some personal remarks, I'm withdrawing from this discussion. I think I have said all I had to say on the matter. No hard feelings. I wish the OP all the best!


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

I have one thing to add:

Study.com reports median salary for "digital arts" grads at 70k. This ain't no entry-level-minimum-wage starting in the mail room.....

OP's wife has a strong sense of entitlement, to allow him to bust his ___ while she kicks it..... that's all, there's no deep, dark, obscure motivation here..... she has given herself permission, and she knows it's backed by jurisprudence in most cases. It's just plainly reprehensible.

The bible says ( II Thessalonians 3:10-12 )

_For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat". We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies.Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat._

It's highly unfortunate that society has allowed people with this kind of entitlement to force others to pay their way. 

Not eating makes a point, and promotes behavioral change.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TJW said:


> I have one thing to add:
> 
> Study.com reports median salary for "digital arts" grads at 70k. This ain't no entry-level-minimum-wage starting in the mail room.....


ejay,

The above quote makes a point. Some who can make a good living with an arts degree. You wife could go back and get a master's degree for starters. There are even scholarships to help women who were SAHMs get a degree to get back into the workforce, At least there were back a few years ago when I was helping my kids search out scholarships. Also there are work study jobs at universities that are about 10 to 20 hours a week. When my son was working on his Master's he covered that by teaching at the university. He's been covering his Phd work with fellowships and research assistant positions.

If she cannot get a scholarship or some other assistance, i would have her take out student loans. Why? Because if you divorce that debt is not considered marital debt. So she will have to take that as her own debt. This is from experience. When i was married to my son's father, he decided to go to medical school. My take on it was cool, i'll support us, you go get an MD and then after that I'll can take some time for a Phd or something else I want to do. Well he got his MD (med school and residency). He did have a small inheritance he used to help pay tuition and fees. But I covered all the rest of the costs plus supported him, our son and myself through all those years. In the end we divorced because ... well I won't bore you with the details. But we divorced with in months after he started his first position in a medical practice. During the divorce I talked to my lawyer about recouping the tens, if not hundred thousand I had put into his MD. Sadly I don't live in California and could not recoup the money I invested in his MD. 

The lesson I learned is to never finance the education of a spouse. They will often leave or make your life so miserable once they get that degree. They change. For example, 98% of married medical students divorce after they finish residency.

There are ways for her to get a master's degree without her putting a huge burden on your finances. 

There are things she can do in the arts with an masters, such as museum curator, or here's a link with just a few: Top 10 Highest Paying Jobs for Arts Majors - Best Colleges Online

Does your wife do anything like paint, sculpt or any other sort of art form that she does, or used to do?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

You are in Washington state in a marriage over 25 years... in the eyes of state law at this point you are fully financially equal partners and the courts will review this with a fine tooth comb even in the most uncontested of divorces. My own divorce here after 28 years (her desire) was delayed twice for the right verbiage (legal wording that satisfied a judge all was fair in his eyes) ensuring my ex was financially covered since she was a SAHM for almost 20 years. When she reentered the workforce it was not because of any other necessity than being at home after the children had left meant that there were still homemaker responsibilities that she didn't wish to be responsible for anymore. Before she was much like your wife, wanted to putter on her schedule and there were many hard discussions about responsibilities and expectations.

Even though we agreed that being a SAHM was the best for the family, life changes.

And as the world changes around us, so do our fears...

Especially what a degree does from 2 decades ago... I've been in IT support for 37 years, if I had taken my certifications from 20 years ago, did nothing more with them but raise my children, and then tried to reenter the workforce with them today they would be worth little... I couldn't even get a help desk job with them.

Can you imagine how she feels with a 20 year digital arts degree in today's world? The difference would be overwhelming I would think. What is even worse is that fear is compounded by having someone telling you "you have this degree, do something with it"!

Please do not hold the degree over her head, that is in the past and unfair in today's expectations and muddies the waters of where your discontent in your relationship seems to lie... right effort.

She is missing a connection in her life with joy and interest... these connections cannot be too loose or too tight but if she is not willing to measure how this balances then a divorce may take one fear and blend them into something unrecognizable missing the true area in your marriage that could have the possibility of success.

Trying to kill flies with a shotgun may remove the pest but destroys the home... fears work the same way.

You have been married 25 years but I have not heard you say the word "love" yourself... others have asked if you love her, so do you?

I hear you share about so many of your expectations that have been unattained by her, how you have been let down by your measure of her efforts. Honestly, your resentments may be building more a two-way street here than you recognize, your's are noted in criticism, her's in intentional inaction...

If I asked you who the real her is, could you tell me? Not the way you perceive her, but the way she perceives herself?

I ask that because such counseling for my ex and I was the beginning of the end... when it came to the hard questions of her sharing who she really was with me, her fears and truths, she chose another path alone rather than a joined one with a final truth of I don't love you and haven't for a long time.

So back to my question... do you love her or are you yourself looking for roommate compatibility?

I needed more than roommates and an effort of a better relationship but the fear of openness ended 28 years, not that she worked.

The work was just a diversion for many other disappointments.

Is her having a job a diversion or a personal value in this stage of your life that is aligned differently?


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> ok, since everybody seems to be disagreeing with me (so, I must be wrong) and also given some personal remarks, I'm withdrawing from this discussion. I think I have said all I had to say on the matter. No hard feelings. I wish the OP all the best!


I really valued your viewpoint as contrary to mine. I hope I didn't offend. I'm inferring you've been active on this forum for a while and perhaps have shared a great deal. Do you have a link to your story? I would like to know more. Somewhat selfishly I admit, your perspective seems to be the closest to my wife's.


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

I'll answer this from a daughter's perspective...

I'm a woman in my 30s that was raised by a mother very similar to your wife. My mother worked in a very easy admin role for a year, then did a bit of trainee nursing for a couple of years before stopping work to have children in her early 20s. My father was happy for her to stay at home while we were young and financially supported this. However he expected her to return to work once we were in full time education and contribute to the bills now that she wasn't baby-sitting full time.

She didn't. She had part time, very low paid jobs (1-2 evenings a week or sometimes a saturday shift) on and off for a few years in her late 30s before that slowed right down and she stopped working entirely. Her excuse was that my father had a good enough job that he could cover the bills, so why did she need to worry. Sometimes she would 'help out' with the family business he was joint-owner of. Which involved nothing more than mailing cheques 1-2 days a month or taking calls and passing on a message. If asked, she would say she was company secretary or P.A and massively overstate the amount of work she did. She was/is a lovely, polite, nice woman (very 1950s housewife). But very lazy and increasingly clueless about the real world, as she got to continue living like an overgrown teenager her entire life. I love her as my mother, but I have no respect for her and I can never go to her for advice on anything. I am more of a parent in our relationship, which is sad.

As a child/teen, I could feel the frustration and resentment in the house. It wasn't a calm, happy place, even though they tried to put on a good front for us kids. Children are incredibly perceptive and feel what's going on, even if they don't understand the reasons behind those feelings. My father wanted a better lifestyle, which we would have had if my mother had taken even a low level admin role somewhere. Instead, we did ok but there was constant stress over money and him having to continue working into his 60s. We always felt guilty asking for money for anything.

My mother is now in her 60s. She spent the last 30 years gardening, watching TV, doing a bit of housework, and like your wife has abnormal sleeping habits (I assume because she hasn't had to stick to a routine in decades). I'm fairly certain she is developing dementure or something similar, as she rarely has to think for herself and has no stress in life requiring her to progress or adapt. The closest thing to stress is what she causes herself. I can barely have a conversation with her, as she is clueless about most subjects.

The hardest part was having no female role model growing up. There was no one I could ask for help. I knew early on that I didn't want to live like my mother. She didn't seem to mind if my father dropped dead of a heart attack from working. She would just passively smile and respond that 'it was sad but it'll be ok' (her response to most things). I don't think she can be described as 'abusive'. She doesn't shout, insult, demand or act aggressive towards my father in any way and has never cheated as far as I know. It's just this constant, silent refusal to do anything for herself. If she is forced to agree to something she doesn't want to do, she will magically develop an illness right before the event, or say she forgot, or (at worst) play the victim card. No one else is allowed to be the victim in return though. It's a very weird dynamic that I still cannot get my head around. It just makes me generally uncomfortable to think about, so I try not to.

The one thing I will say for my mother is that she wanted to have a big family right from the start and was pretty good at taking care of us when we were young. I can't fault her there. She was very attentive and hands-on. And she managed to keep the house in a good state too. We had home cooked meals every day, she played with us rather than sticking us in front of the TV, and made sure all the chores were done so my father could relax when he got home. I think my mother would have been better suited to being a foster mother as a career (specifically younger kids), but I doubt it crossed her mind back then.

On the other hand, your wife sounds like a garden variety gold-digger. I've unfortunately met many of those (including the odd male one, although they are more rare). Most women have enough morals and self respect to know they have to do SOMETHING in life to pull their weight - whether full time mother/housekeeper or a 9-to-5 career. However some grow up incredibly spoilt; not neccessarily with 'stuff', but being praised for every little thing and being told they are beyond punishment for anything. The type where you see the parents going into school to berate the teacher for daring to tell off their poor, innocent little child (who bullies other kids when the parents aren't around)! They never have to develop empathy in order to survive and get used to just leeching off their parents, and then partners to get by. Weirdly, many of them have almost incestuous relationships with their father/brother/male cousin. I'm not sure why and this may not apply to your wife, but the gold-diggers I've known all had this in common bar one. The male relative acts as a constant 'plan B' if the gold-digger can't be a parasite to another man.

Your daughter is likely well aware of how your mother behaves (if she isn't, then she will notice once she's a bit older and having to navigate the world as a responsible adult). I tend to advise people against divorce when children are young, unless there is abuse involved (as the child will base their own adult relationships on whatever 'normal' they grow up witnessing). But if your daughter is in her 20s and out of the house, then she is an adult and no longer your responsibility. You've done your duty in raising her and helping her to stand on her own two feet. So there's no reason to feel guilty about her response now. She doesn't have to get involved in any arguments (or legal disputes over custody, as a child would) and can continue having a relationship with you both. Although I will add that in my early 20s I swung between rational/mature and behaving like a spoilt child (like my mother) just because that's the female role model I'd had until that point. It took me a while to fully accept that being a parasite and using a man as a walking wallet wasn't healthy or kind. Your daughter's reaction will likely depend on how much of your wife's attitude to men she has internalised. She has grown up with a mother than leeches off a man and a father that puts up with that behaviour as if it's fine. That is 'normal' to her, so it might throw her off when you decide to suddenly stand up for yourself. It may not, but be prepared for an initial angry shock as she has to readjust. Once reality sinks in, then if she's even half logical then she will see that your marriage was not a fair and balanced one and likely respect you more for finally walking away.

My biggest issue today is that I have zero respect for my father. My feelings towards my mother are confused and uncomfortable, but I am almost resentful towards my father for being so weak. If my mother WAS abusive towards my dad, then at the very least I can respect her cunning. But my father could have walked away, certainly once we were adults, and instead has become a whiny, bitter, passive aggressive old man. And until I had extensive therapy, I struggled to have respect for ANY other men. It screwed up a lot of my own relationships. They were both consenting adults to that marriage and both chose to remain. I am ashamed of that and I never openly admit it, but that is the most damaging affect of their marriage on me.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

TJW said:


> Study.com reports median salary for "digital arts" grads at 70k. This ain't no entry-level-minimum-wage starting in the mail room.....


I hear you. Someone else earlier (I think it was Heartbeats or EleGirl) pointed out that digital degrees decay really fast. Emerging Buddhist also pointed out the same thing for IT, same sort of issue. Technology moves really quickly. My wife and I are both aware that her degree is a tough sell 14 years later. If pursued at 9 years later when our daughter graduated HS that would be better (still tough). But that was only the beginning of our disagreement about this issue that has been building for the last 5 years. Nuclear options weren't being considered back then.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> There are even scholarships to help women who were SAHMs get a degree to get back into the workforce, At least there were back a few years ago when I was helping my kids search out scholarships


That's interesting. We've looked at various options for re-education over the years, but not too much discussion about scholarships. I was not aware of scholorships targeted at SAHMs specifically, that's very interesting. I will do some research and probably suggest it in one of our future discussions.



EleGirl said:


> The lesson I learned is to never finance the education of a spouse. They will often leave or make your life so miserable once they get that degree. They change. For example, 98% of married medical students divorce after they finish residency.


That's good advice. If she does choose to re-educate, I intend to pay for it up front. But if it were so expensive that it required loans, I will stay off of the loan.



EleGirl said:


> Does your wife do anything like paint, sculpt or any other sort of art form that she does, or used to do?


Both of the above, but not for some time now. Mostly now it's piano, gardening, reading. movies.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I hear you. Someone else earlier (I think it was Heartbeats or EleGirl) pointed out that digital degrees decay really fast. Emerging Buddhist also pointed out the same thing for IT, same sort of issue. Technology moves really quickly. My wife and I are both aware that her degree is a tough sell 14 years later. If pursued at 9 years later when our daughter graduated HS that would be better (still tough). But that was only the beginning of our disagreement about this issue that has been building for the last 5 years. Nuclear options weren't being considered back then.


I agree that a degree from 14 years ago with no work experience it as good as no degree. That is unless she gets a master's degree or gets some sort of trade school certificate/diploma. Then her BA would be considered updated.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Still waiting for the answer to do you love your wife?

Getting back in the job market might be the best thing for her.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Still waiting for the answer to do you love your wife?


I'm trying! These are some long and thoughtful posts. I'm currently writing the response to Emerging Buddhist which includes that answer.

I am overwhelmed by the response, never in a million years did I think I'd get so many eyes on such a TLDR post with such thoughtful responses. I am extremely grateful, and it's taking me time to read/digest/respond. Ella-Bee's response is particularly powerful. I had to take a break after reading hers earlier.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You are in Washington state in a marriage over 25 years... in the eyes of state law at this point you are fully financially equal partners and the courts will review this with a fine tooth comb even in the most uncontested of divorces. My own divorce here after 28 years (her desire) was delayed twice for the right verbiage (legal wording that satisfied a judge all was fair in his eyes) ensuring my ex was financially covered since she was a SAHM for almost 20 years.


I'm coming to that realization about Washington after looking at some sources EleGirl provided and doing some google-fu. I am trying to setup a free consult to make sure I understand my footing before moving to counseling which may result in ultimatums from one or both of us.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Especially what a degree does from 2 decades ago...


Well, 14 years (9 if used when it could have been), but I agree the degree is stale and of limited use in the digital field. It's not of zero value though. She could advance her degree, I imagine for somewhat less time/effort than it took to get the first degrree. Also, some less specialized jobs outside the digital world want to see a degree just "because" which would bar HS graduates but not my wife.

Either approach is ok with me. If she wants to re-invest in education, I'm in support of that and will make payments on that degree too (as long as we're married). If she wants to 9 to 5 something less career-sh but still worthy of her time, I'm in support of that as well. I'm open to other options too.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Can you imagine how she feels with a 20 year digital arts degree in today's world? The difference would be overwhelming I would think. What is even worse is that fear is compounded by having someone telling you "you have this degree, do something with it"!


I'm sure I can't imagine the depth of the fear. I do get a little taste of it sometimes. I myself am a HS graduate and there are jobs I'd like to do outside my work experience but that reject me out of hand because no degree. Rejection is hard, and I actually have unbroken work experience. For her, the uphill climb feels enormous. I'm very aware of this, but I'm sure it runs deeper than I can imagine.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Please do not hold the degree over her head, that is in the past and unfair in today's expectations and muddies the waters of where your discontent in your relationship seems to lie... right effort.


I definitely don't expect her to land a job aligned with her current degree. She knows where I stand on this, and she knows additional education is on the table if that's the career path she wants.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> You have been married 25 years but I have not heard you say the word "love" yourself... others have asked if you love her, so do you?


I've approached this thread very analytically as is my personality. I did not mean to omit love or ignore anyone's prior question about it. I don't remember seeing it asked before (or perhaps I did and interpreted it as rhetorical). I thought I've read everyone's responses thoroughly and I really respect the time people have put into them. I will re-read this entire thread today, and will definitely be re-reading multiple times in the weeks/months/years ahead.

People mean different things when they say love. I'll try to break it down this way:

Physical love: Yes. Sorry for the TMI, but I don't even have fantasies that don't involve her. Do I feel this? Yes, I love this woman sinfully.

Familial love: Yes. Her smell, her voice, her humor, all of it evokes feelings of home and family.

Platonic love: I used to consider her my closest friend. Not as much in recent years, but this is certainly not gone. I value her opinions on most things.

Affectionate love: Inconsistent. She's a roller coaster, and during the downs I don't feel warm and fluffy towards her, but even then I try to be her anchor. Sometimes unsuccessfully.

Unconditional love: No. For my daughter, yes. My daugher is not my equal partner, and so I can't imagine what she could ever do that would challenge my love for her. For a wife? I apparently have 
some conditions. I view a wife as someone I build a life with, not for, and I don't think that's inconsistent with our traditional vows.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> I hear you share about so many of your expectations that have been unattained by her, how you have been let down by your measure of her efforts. Honestly, your resentments may be building more a two-way street here than you recognize, your's are noted in criticism, her's in intentional inaction...


This one's tough for me to consider that way. I'm diplomatic almost to a fault. This has been a 5 year disagreement. We've even taken a full year off of the subject at one point by agreement. If there's a way to express myself in a more understanding, patient, gentle way short of surrender, I don't yet know what it is. If anything, I suspect I need to amplify my position or risk the current situation becoming the de facto norm for the rest of our lives. I'm open to ideas, and I suspect the counselor we decide to go to could help me approach it with more skill and understanding.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> If I asked you who the real her is, could you tell me? Not the way you perceive her, but the way she perceives herself?
> 
> I ask that because such counseling for my ex and I was the beginning of the end... when it came to the hard questions of her sharing who she really was with me, her fears and truths, she chose another path alone rather than a joined one with a final truth of I don't love you and haven't for a long time.


I do try to put myself in her shoes and feel what she feels, but even so I'm sure I don't know her as well as she does. I hope that she is not witholding her real self from me as you've described with your ex. I'm sorry to hear that. My take is that she is honest with me, and when honesty becomes too vulnerable she escalates to shut down the discussion.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> do you love her or are you yourself looking for roommate compatibility?
> 
> I needed more than roommates and an effort of a better relationship but the fear of openness ended 28 years, not that she worked.
> 
> ...


I do feel like we have become FWB room mates as someone else has pointed out. I didn't feel this way when our daughter was home, and I definitely don't want that.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Ella-Bee said:


> I'll answer this from a daughter's perspective...
> 
> I'm a woman in my 30s that was raised by a mother very similar to your wife. My mother worked in a very easy admin role for a year, then did a bit of trainee nursing for a couple of years before stopping work to have children in her early 20s. My father was happy for her to stay at home while we were young and financially supported this. However he expected her to return to work once we were in full time education and contribute to the bills now that she wasn't baby-sitting full time.
> 
> ...


I can't tell you how valuable this perspective is to me. I'm reading this and I'm just struck. In so many ways you are my future daughter.

There are some differences: My wife is not steady/calm, she's can be rather volatile. My wife sounds much more reliable than your mom in terms of keeping promises. She did not want a big family and the mom role was something she didn't want but chose to rise to. She was not fully domestic while our daughter was at home. For example, cooking/cleaning/laundry where I was concerned was almost always divided, but she did these things consistently for our daughter. I was ok with this because I knew she was struggling with the role to begin with. Nocturnal habits were always a thing to some degree, and working from home I'd generally handle early morning things like school drop-offs, I was ok with this too (still am looking back), because even though I worked from home I would sometimes be very unavailable during the work day, so having some guaranteed time with my daughter in the morning was gold.

About gold digging, I don't know. She certainly could have picked a wealthier guy to dig from if that was her intent. The way I see it, I think it's more likely that she's some combination of paralyzed and no longer into our marriage. She either can't find the courage to step out into the world, or has come to think so little of our life together that it's not worth contributing to, but at least it's comfortable enough. That last bit is a possibility I'm coming to grips with in real time the last couple of days while communicating with people on this forum.



Ella-Bee said:


> My biggest issue today is that I have zero respect for my father. My feelings towards my mother are confused and uncomfortable, but I am almost resentful towards my father for being so weak. If my mother WAS abusive towards my dad, then at the very least I can respect her cunning. But my father could have walked away, certainly once we were adults, and instead has become a whiny, bitter, passive aggressive old man. And until I had extensive therapy, I struggled to have respect for ANY other men. It screwed up a lot of my own relationships. They were both consenting adults to that marriage and both chose to remain. I am ashamed of that and I never openly admit it, but that is the most damaging affect of their marriage on me.


This is a hard mirror for me to look at. No man likes to think of himself as weak. Particularly from a child. Being one of my daughter's heros is my most cherished identity. It's tough to both draw a bright line in the sand while simultaneously giving enough breathing room to my wife to change.

Do you feel 100% sure that if your dad did arrive at an ultimatum, your mom countered with her own, and your dad filed for divorce, that you and your dad's relationship would eventually have been restored?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think your wife has settled in since she married you and is very comfortable where she is. She doesn’t want things changing. My guess is you’re afraid of what she will tell your daughter if you decide you want out. If it comes to that, you should try to talk to your daughter before her mom does. She might be more sympathetic than you think. But I can tell you from experience that adult children aren’t usually thrilled when their parents divorce. My child was much older than yours when I finally got out and the reaction was quite negative.

You could be facing a rocky time with your daughter for awhile, maybe a long while. Something to consider. But I also don’t suggest staying primarily because you don’t want to upset your daughter. You can’t get those years back.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay,

There are a couple of books that might help you formulate your approach to all this. They are "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Both are written by Dr. Steve Harley. Their goal is to help a couple restructure their marriage into a much healthier one and to grow the passion. It's best to read the books in the order that I posted here and do that work. At some point, hopefully your wife would agree to read them and the two of you could do the work together.

The idea of the Love Busters book is that there are things that a person does the slowly chips away at their spouse's love for them. It uses the idea of a love bank as an analogy. When one meets their spouses needs, "love coins" are deposited into their love bank. When one does not meet their spouse's needs and does negative things it withdraws "love coins" from the love bank. It's corny analogy but works. Negative love busters withdraw more love coins then positive meeting needs deposit. The idea is that you both identify and stop the love busters. Only then can you work to identify each of your needs and how to meet each others needs.

I recall that in marketing class we were taught that it takes a business 13 positive interactions with customers to recoup from 1 negative interactions. Basically it's the same in a relationship.

Your wife's attitude about not working/contributing is a huge love buster for you. Your expectations on this are very reasonable. Even though she might find it hard to get into the world and start working, she needs to do it. What youo are saying here is that you are close to ready to just leave the marriage over this.

Now your wife might say that you expecting her to work/contribute is to her a love buster. Well, then you two are butting heads. Except, her expectation of living her life out eating bonbons and watching TV and expecting you to work and carry the entire financial responsibility is not reasonable in today's world. 

All that said, I really think you would benefit from those books.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> There are a couple of books that might help you formulate your approach to all this. They are "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Both are written by Dr. Steve Harley. Their goal is to help a couple restructure their marriage into a much healthier one and to grow the passion. It's best to read the books in the order that I posted here and do that work. At some point, hopefully your wife would agree to read them and the two of you could do the work together.


I have to admit, I am not the type to read these kinds of books. Neither is my wife (one of the things we have in common, for better or worse). I read through the "Basic Concepts" pages on the marriagebuilders website for Love Busters and have purchased the book. I will read it with an open mind.

Thank you and everyone else for all the time put into replies. At the risk of sounding corny, yesterday I felt completely alone in my though processes as I don't want to involve real-life friends that know us both. Today, I feel like I suddenly have a random sampling of sudden e-friends out of nowhere with various perspectives.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ejay said:


> I have to admit, I am not the type to read these kinds of books. Neither is my wife (one of the things we have in common, for better or worse). I read through the "Basic Concepts" pages on the marriagebuilders website for Love Busters and have purchased the book. I will read it with an open mind.
> 
> Thank you and everyone else for all the time put into replies. At the risk of sounding corny, yesterday I felt completely alone in my though processes as I don't want to involve real-life friends that know us both. Today, I feel like I suddenly have a random sampling of sudden e-friends out of nowhere with various perspectives.


I get it about now reading those types of books. 

However, there are a few of them that in my opinion are more help than hours of counseling. I hope they help you.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Openminded said:


> My guess is you’re afraid of what she will tell your daughter if you decide you want out. If it comes to that, you should try to talk to your daughter before her mom does. She might be more sympathetic than you think. But I can tell you from experience that adult children aren’t usually thrilled when their parents divorce. My child was much older than yours when I finally got out and the reaction was quite negative.


You're right, I am very much afraid of that. However, for better or worse, if I did ever file for divorce I believe I would speak to my daughter about it either with my wife or after my wife, preferably with. If she feels the same way (which I'd hope), then we'd definitely be doing it together.



Openminded said:


> You could be facing a rocky time with your daughter for awhile, maybe a long while. Something to consider. But I also don’t suggest staying primarily because you don’t want to upset your daughter. You can’t get those years back.


Long ago before I got married, I had a fierce faith in the institution of marriage. Divorce under no circumstances. Even abuse, just separate, spouses are forever. Pretty naive huh? I've become much more liberal in my views towards marriage. My daughter is my biggest remaining reason for caution. But I agree with you. Especially after reading Ella-Bee's story of how her parents staying together actually alienated her further from them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Hopefully, your wife will realize that she’s about to lose the life she’s known and will work with you on this. It’s a correctable situation but only if she wakes up.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ejay said:


> I really valued your viewpoint as contrary to mine. I hope I didn't offend. I'm inferring you've been active on this forum for a while and perhaps have shared a great deal. Do you have a link to your story? I would like to know more. Somewhat selfishly I admit, your perspective seems to be the closest to my wife's.


You didn't offend. What I was trying to say is that your wife feels entitled to an "early retirement" because she feels she's done her job, sacrificing her career (according to her, obviously) to raise your daughter. That was her job. Which comes with doing F*** all at the end of it, even if she is in her forties. The problem is that you didn't discuss it properly or extensively at the beginning. In your shoes, I would feel the same, though, because my wife has the same attitude and feels totally entitled, although we shared everything and I'm paying for everything (she works, though). I have put up with it for a long time and chickened out when we were separating (my wife has mental issues and had a melt down). In hindsight, I now get to spend Covid-19 with all my kids in a big house instead of being isolated and on my own in a little flat miles away. To me, it seems that your wife feels like she has accomplished what she set out to do and your marriage will take the backseat now, you included...

To re-cap, I really believe women play naturally a fundamental role in being a mum and raising children and therefore I tend to be more "flexible" when it comes to "life after the kids". Most people here say I'm a doormat and get walked over, I have no balls etc. which is also true. But this is marriage. I got to marry a beautiful woman, we had many happy years together and it went wrong at the end. She is still the mother of my children and I will never forget that. At the end of the day, if you don't want "complications", don't get married. Anyway, good luck with your plan, whatever that will be.

My thread is here... but be careful: it's very long and not a happy reading, with no happy ending...









Talk About Marriage







www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> And as the world changes around us, so do our fears...
> 
> Especially what a degree does from 2 decades ago... I've been in IT support for 37 years, if I had taken my certifications from 20 years ago, did nothing more with them but raise my children, and then tried to reenter the workforce with them today they would be worth little... I couldn't even get a help desk job with them.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the above post of Emerging Buddhist... explained it beautifully...


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

ejay said:


> There are some differences: My wife is not steady/calm, she's can be rather volatile. My wife sounds much more reliable than your mom in terms of keeping promises. She did not want a big family and the mom role was something she didn't want but chose to rise to. She was not fully domestic while our daughter was at home. For example, cooking/cleaning/laundry where I was concerned was almost always divided, but she did these things consistently for our daughter. I was ok with this because I knew she was struggling with the role to begin with.


The above is what screams 'gold-digger' to me. Especially the volatility. When a spoilt toddler doesn't get their own way, they throw a tantrum or sulk. Adults grow out of that behaviour, as they have to learn responsibility in order to survive in the world. Your wife sounds like she doesn't see the need to grow up, as she expects to let other people be responsible on her behalf. If I lived with a random housemate, not even someone I cared about, the I would still make an effort to clean/tidy the place just out of respect. The fact that she didn't want kids or a career tells me that she wanted a free ride at someone else's expense. A lot of women have to juggle kids and a career. You wife didn't want to do either. That is incredibly arrogant. As a woman, I would have zero respect for a female friend that admitted this to me. In fact, we likely wouldn't reman friends as I have no interest in hanging out with parasites. Most of the women I know would feel the same way.



ejay said:


> About gold digging, I don't know. She certainly could have picked a wealthier guy to dig from if that was her intent. The way I see it, I think it's more likely that she's some combination of paralyzed and no longer into our marriage.


Most gold-diggers don't (or can't) run off with multi millionaires. They just target someone who has a combination of high work ethic, who is pliable enough to let them get away with their behaviour, and who they know they can manipulate enough into staying long term. Most of their victims are middle class at best. Very wealthy men tend to be better prepared to bat away gold-diggers, whereas your average office worker or small business owner isn't. Your type is easy game to them.



ejay said:


> It's tough to both draw a bright line in the sand while simultaneously giving enough breathing room to my wife to change.


Your wife is not going to change. If you push back enough, she will fake change until you calm down again and then slip right back into her old ways. People don't suddenly develop morals and work ethic. Those are core traits that are developed at a young age. If their survival depends on it, they might pretend for a while, but it isn't their natural state.



ejay said:


> Do you feel 100% sure that if your dad did arrive at an ultimatum, your mom countered with her own, and your dad filed for divorce, that you and your dad's relationship would eventually have been restored?


Yes. Although by the sounds of it you already have a better relationship than I had with my father, so that will definitely help. But let her be shocked to begin with, as it will take a while to process the change. And just reassure her that both you and her mother will still be there for her as parents and your relationship with her won't change.

You will get a chance to talk to your daughter before the legal stuff begins, so essentially you get to state your case to her first without your wife manipulating things. And if your wife is as I suspect, then she will try to twist everything. I would therfore be completely honest with your daughter, but in a calm rational way (i.e. no tirade of insults about how terrible your wife is, just list the problems so she understands that you have thought about this for a long time and it isn't a sudden change of heart or another woman). Don't tell her you stayed with your wife for your daughter's sake. Not only will you make her feel responsible for your misery, but it's a lie and she will know it's a lie. No one stays in a dysfunctional relationship like this 'for the kids'. That's an excuse. If you stay, you are showing them that this set up is normal and screwing up their own expectations of love/marriage. Don't go down that path. You likely have a warped perspective on women that allowed you to normalise being used as a walking wallet for so long, and I would strongly suggest getting therapy once this is over so that you don't repeat the same mistakes. Most couples want a team-mate that contributes equally to the marriage and has their back when taking on the world. That is normal and healthy.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

IMO you shouldn't spend a lot of time dwelling on whether it's fair for her not to work. Why? because it's a slippery slope encouraging you to feel like you're a victim. From your posts your life and marriage is better than most - so don't blow a good thing with self pity/destructive thoughts. 

A healthier and more constructive role for you (as her life partner) is to focus on helping her lead the best version of her life. 

I don't see your wife as lazy or bad or deserving criticism. I see someone that's scared & lost and needs help to live the best version of their life. After all this time, it will be a slow process requiring a lot of patience on your part. Avoid nagging or pushing too hard - because she'll resist and maybe regress each time. 

First you have to boost her self confidence ...and given her childhood I'm guessing low self esteem (which is not an easy quick fix). 

Instead of you declaring that she needs to find a job, try re-framing this as her trying a new hobby (something fullfilling). If she doesn't like it she can stop and try something else. 

I think certain industries are more receptive to late starts (e.g., health care). Maybe (when the pandemic is under control) she could volunteer 1 day a week at the hospital and observe first hand the different roles (and training required). 

Even a volunteer feels good about themselves knowing they're making a difference.

This is a big change for her. She's basically reinventing 'who' she is with new friends, new skills, and new accomplishments. 

I suggest you stay very involved with her volunteer work, training and/or new career. Go out of your way to meet her coworkers. Meet her for lunch etc. And be very sure that when she reinvents herself - you are part of her new life.

Go slow and make this journey together as a team. Make sure she does not feel coerced or bullied. 

Finally, since your wife may now see you as more concerned about money than her best interests, your best ally is your daughter.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Robert22205 said:


> IMO you shouldn't spend a lot of time dwelling on whether it's fair for her not to work. Why? because it's a slippery slope encouraging you to feel like you're a victim. From your posts your life and marriage is better than most - so don't blow a good thing with self pity/destructive thoughts.
> 
> A healthier and more constructive role for you (as her life partner) is to focus on helping her lead the best version of her life.
> 
> ...


This post made me chuckle. This is an adult woman we're talking about.... Not a 5 year old going off to kindergarten for the first time. Haa!

No adult should need this much hand holding. Teens in high school and college students getting jobs don't need this much hand holding! 

A team? Coerced or bullied?

This woman has it SO EASY. No matter what happens with any new job she takes, her life and livelihood are never in danger because she has OP to fall back on. She doesn't ever need to stress about what kind of salary she earns, how many hours she works, or even if she gets let go from any job.

Most of the WORLD is not so lucky.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Ella-Bee said:


> Your wife sounds like she doesn't see the need to grow up, as she expects to let other people be responsible on her behalf.


Correct. 100% correct. She is ENTITLED to do this, she gave herself permission. She's still 14. God provides, she dictates.



Ella-Bee said:


> arrogant


Extremely.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This woman has it SO EASY. No matter what happens with any new job she takes, her life and livelihood are never in danger because she has OP to fall back on.


That's the EXACT problem. He will be her "soft place" to fall, no matter whether he's living there, or not. The court system will see to it.


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

*"First you have to boost her self confidence ...and given her childhood I'm guessing low self esteem (which is not an easy quick fix). Instead of you declaring that she needs to find a job, try re-framing this as her trying a new hobby (something fullfilling). If she doesn't like it she can stop and try something else."*

This is his adult wife, not his child. And he is not a clinical therapist. They are supposed to be equal partners. I'm also fairly confident that she would not do the same for him in return.

In fact, you can do the same experiment I did with one of my exes who I suspected was freeloading off me. Come home one day and tell her you've quit your job due to stress and need a career break. Tell her she needs to get a job and pay the bills for a while. Say you are going to go to therapy to work through some issues and try to find youself. If she complains, tell her you have serious anxiety/depression/whatever and as your partner she should support you after everything you've done for her. It will only be for a year or so, and then you'll find something else. If she doesn't want to work during that time, then you can sell the house and downscale your lifestyle. You are fine with that.

See how she reacts. My ex couldn't get out of there fast enough and quickly made it clear that he only viewed me as a personal bank account. He soon found himself another woman to leech off and disappeared. My guess is that when faced with having to take care of you in the same way you've done for her, she won't step up to the plate. If she does, great. She'll finally have a job and you can magically 'recover' and get your two income household.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I’ve had kind of the same thought as Ella. That you should tell her that you think her lifestyle sounds like just what you need after busting your butt working all these years, and you are going to put in your resignation. That way the two of you can kick back and just enjoy life together from here on. 

I’d love to see her response. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

ejay said:


> You're right, I am very much afraid of that. However, for better or worse, if I did ever file for divorce I believe I would speak to my daughter about it either with my wife or after my wife, preferably with. If she feels the same way (which I'd hope), then we'd definitely be doing it together.
> 
> 
> 
> Long ago before I got married, I had a fierce faith in the institution of marriage. Divorce under no circumstances. Even abuse, just separate, spouses are forever. Pretty naive huh? I've become much more liberal in my views towards marriage. My daughter is my biggest remaining reason for caution. But I agree with you. Especially after reading Ella-Bee's story of how her parents staying together actually alienated her further from them.


My mom is the same as Elle-bees. Never worked, totally out of touch with reality, and as a child I resented her for her laziness. 
Today my parents are in their near 70s. The thought of my dad divorcing my mom breaks my heart. My mom would be helpless without her, and he knows that. So divorcing her and leaving her helpless is cruel. 
I think best case scenario would be to really help/force your wife to help herself. Stay happily married, just help her grow into a Independent person, I wish my dad did this, because my mom is bored, has no hobbies, has no social skills from all the isolation etc. 

And really that’s what marriage and love is right? Show your daughter that your not a push over, and spouses need to be equal partners. But at the same time, we help each other grow, we don’t just toss them to the side. 

The thought of you divorcing your wife over this kills me. I think it’s wrong, and I think deep down you know it is too. 

You need to bluntly have a conversation with her about it. I’m sure she is scared and needs a little hand holding and there is nothing wrong with that. Love is patient, love is kind.... remember that. Don’t just toss her out.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

This thread has taken a very cynical turn... feel sorry for the OP, who actually loves his wife. I'm bowing out of this. I have given the OP the answer he wanted from me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> My mom is the same as Elle-bees. Never worked, totally out of touch with reality, and as a child I resented her for her laziness.
> Today my parents are in their near 70s. The thought of my dad divorcing my mom breaks my heart. My mom would be helpless without her, and he knows that. So divorcing her and leaving her helpless is cruel.
> I think best case scenario would be to really help/force your wife to help herself. Stay happily married, just help her grow into a Independent person, I wish my dad did this, because my mom is bored, has no hobbies, has no social skills from all the isolation etc.
> 
> ...


OP has tried to discuss this with her for a long time. He's been more than patient and kind, many times over.

She is the one who need lessons in being kind and a mutual partner.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> This thread has taken a very cynical turn... feel sorry for the OP, who actually loves his wife. I'm bowing out of this. I have given the OP the answer he wanted from me.


I feel sorry for the OP, because he is saddled with this entitled woman who has refused to even discuss this issue _as a partner_, let alone take any action. Basically, her conduct has been a giant **** you to him, and the marriage, and their life together.

If you read the OPs responses, his wife's behavior and treatment of him and their partnership is quickly killing any love he might have, with very good reason.

There is nothing cynical about this thread. The advice given has been pretty realistic and reasonable. 

You might want to consider why it bothers you so much to read that most people think both partners should be contributing to a marriage, and why you feel the need to defend one person in a marriage spending decades!!! after one child is raised and out of the house being completely supported by the other. This wife isn't even doing most of the homemaking. Why do you think this is an okay way to live?


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

If she had a huge family that had taken a lot of time and effort for decades, then perhaps I would have more sympathy. But she had one ONE daughter to raise and has done absolutely nothing since then.

I am genuinely interested to know what people think should happen if the OP got sick or had depression or some other illness that meant he couldn't work? Would you all then say that she should be allowed to continue sponging off him and he just had to 'get on with it'? Why are her difficulties (if she even has any) more important than his?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ella-Bee said:


> I'll answer this from a daughter's perspective...
> 
> I'm a woman in my 30s that was raised by a mother very similar to your wife. My mother worked in a very easy admin role for a year, then did a bit of trainee nursing for a couple of years before stopping work to have children in her early 20s. My father was happy for her to stay at home while we were young and financially supported this. However he expected her to return to work once we were in full time education and contribute to the bills now that she wasn't baby-sitting full time.
> 
> ...


WOW!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Ella-Bee said:


> If she had a huge family that had taken a lot of time and effort for decades, then perhaps I would have more sympathy. But she had one ONE daughter to raise and has done absolutely nothing since then.
> 
> I am genuinely interested to know what people think should happen if the OP got sick or had depression or some other illness that meant he couldn't work? Would you all then say that she should be allowed to continue sponging off him and he just had to 'get on with it'? Why are her difficulties (if she even has any) more important than his?


If he got sick of course she should and hopefully would step up to the plate and provide.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> If he got sick of course she should and hopefully would step up to the plate and provide.


Yes, I hope she would too. However, this still sanctions her own entitlement to be totally supported by her husband, which is both arrogant and selfish. She has no authoritative license to live in indolence and demand her husband to bust his gluteus.


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> If he got sick of course she should and hopefully would step up to the plate and provide.


I wouldn't be so sure. A few years ago my father got cancer and was serously ill, in hospital for months and unable to work for over a year. My mother's behaviour didn't change. It was up to us kids (mostly me) to pay the bills, sort out any paperwork, run errands, etc. I didn't have time to be upset or deal with what was happening, as I had to step in as surrogate wife.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Ella-Bee said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. A few years ago my father got cancer and was serously ill, in hospital for months and unable to work for over a year. My mother's behaviour didn't change. It was up to us kids (mostly me) to pay the bills, sort out any paperwork, run errands, etc. I didn't have time to be upset or deal with what was happening, as I had to step in as surrogate wife.


I agree. What people could do and should do is very often 180 degrees from what they actually do. Just because they need to step up doesn’t mean they will. My extended family is littered with people like that, unfortunately. Makes life more difficult for those of us who are responsible people.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

ejay said:


> Emerging Buddhist said:
> I hear you share about so many of your expectations that have been unattained by her, how you have been let down by your measure of her efforts. Honestly, your resentments may be building more a two-way street here than you recognize, your's are noted in criticism, her's in intentional inaction...
> 
> ---
> This one's tough for me to consider that way. I'm diplomatic almost to a fault. This has been a 5 year disagreement. We've even taken a full year off of the subject at one point by agreement. If there's a way to express myself in a more understanding, patient, gentle way short of surrender, I don't yet know what it is. If anything, I suspect I need to amplify my position or risk the current situation becoming the de facto norm for the rest of our lives. I'm open to ideas, and I suspect the counselor we decide to go to could help me approach it with more skill and understanding.


Diplomats are people with susceptibility to resentments too...

Your opening post shared:


ejay said:


> She did not want to be a mom. In our early years she even suggested we divorce and I take sole custody (we had some big early problems, but we got better). I say that just for context. She was and is a good mom, but never wanted the full-time role. I assumed she wanted a career. I chose my career, and I was open to whichever road she chose for our daughter (mom or career). She chose mom, and managed to squeeze in a BA during 3 of those years while our daughter was around 5 to 8.


You said she did not want to be a mom to the extreme that divorce was mentioned and you take sole custody... what were these big early problems?

Could it be in this time of decision and finalizing a degree that she came to a decision this was her role and would be so until the end?

Kind of an in her mind "fine, you want it you got it" to the place where any change would be intolerable as the pain of the hard times was not something to be addressed again (fear)?

Again, I do not know her perspective, only yours by what you've shared... but she is where she is for a reason.

Resentments can develop into lifestyles, anchored into being... my ex-wife resented me being a soldier, hated me for it when I returned from DS actually yet married me while one and in the end I learned many feelings she had were directly built on this one particular resentment alone as 15 years military isn't shed easily, if at all.

Her recurring feelings of anger, when thinking about a specific interaction or experience as I struggled coming home from some of what I saw, I think her regret for marrying me even with children, the tense relationship of what she saw of different morals, her attempt to devalue my success as I left her feeling "less" in her choices (my motivation was a much different level than hers), along with the overall tension that I wanted to solve things in a way foreign to her and her understanding.

I share this as perspective, nothing more so if there is no alignment with your situation then that is good in a sense, but I do believe there is more unsaid than said in her position of place in life.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I grew up with a stay at home mom. She's now a stay at home wife.

I don't understand why she feels so much fear about facing the world outside the house. My mom didn't finish high school, and I believe (or want to believe) she has a learning disability.
Through out the years, she would have little businesses like selling stuff but she never wanted to go back to school and get her hs diploma. That drove me crazy.

I love my mom to pieces! I appreciate her staying home with us. She is a great person and a good role model. I knew I wanted to be a mom like her. At the same time I don't want to be a stay at home wife like her. Getting old and becoming someone like my mom scares me to death!

My husband and I decided I should stay home full time while our kids were young. As soon as they started school I started to work as well. I still work part-time. I have a flexible schedule which is perfect for our family and I bring a little bit of extra income to our household every week.

It's not really how much I bring to the house. My income is 1/5 of what my husband makes but it's nice to feel I'm doing something outside the house, I'm needed outside the house. Even though I didn't get a college degree I'm out there getting skills and experience that is going to look good if I decide to apply for a full time job.

Once our kids started school, I had an empty house. I didn't know what to do with myself! I felt I had to get out and do something.

I'm already making plans for when my kids leave the house. I don't want to be like my mom.

My sister on the other hand has a great college degree but decided to stay home as a wife and as a mom. Her husband got sick a few years ago but that didn't scare her enough to make her go and find a job. I don't know what she's going to do once her children leave the house.

Like I said, I don't make a lot of money, but I'm not flipping burgers either. There are good entry level jobs out there, but it takes willpower, motivation, and effort to go and apply for them.

I don't think your wife has the motivation to do it. It might be she's afraid or embarrassed to see herself starting at the bottom and in her forties, but she needs to realize what if something happens to you?

I don't think she's a bad person but I don't understand how anybody would feel good and satisfied by staying home all day! What does she do all day??? What motivates her?? Where does she see herself in a few years when your daughter becomes more independent and less available?

Is this part of a midlife crisis?


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> What I was trying to say is that your wife feels entitled to an "early retirement" because she feels she's done her job, sacrificing her career (according to her, obviously) to raise your daughter. That was her job. Which comes with doing F*** all at the end of it, even if she is in her forties.


That's really the crux of the disconnect for me. I respect your viewpoint, though I can't seem to connect those two dots: raise daughter -> do F all. She didn't completely sac her career, there's still time for one, it's just delayed. It won't last 50 years like mine will, but certainly 25 is possible.



In Absentia said:


> The problem is that you didn't discuss it properly or extensively at the beginning.


It certainly would be clearer if we'd planned out even those things we regarded as self-evident.

I don't remember specific conversations back when she started her degree, but her intent was clear to me at the time. Getting the degree was no easy task to squeeze into just 3 years with a daughter. And this wasn't some online degree from home, she went to the college every day and had homework, it was hard work. There was palpable ambition there. And I certainly wouldn't have agreed to protracted monthly payments if it were simply self enriching. We had a daughter to educate too afterall.

I would never speak so plainly to her about the degree issue as I did above. She puts heaps of guilt on herself over it, I'm always working the other angle - trying to pull her out of that guilt. I cite it here only to speak to her intent. While we had no explicit discussions about empty-nest expectations, I got clear indications early in our marriage that she did not see herself tapping out after our daughter left home.



In Absentia said:


> At the end of the day, if you don't want "complications", don't get married.


Truer words. Well said.

In our marriage, I actually feel like a complication ninja. I don't like complications, but I think I do them well enough. They aren't deal breakers.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Ella-Bee said:


> Your wife is not going to change. If you push back enough, she will fake change until you calm down again and then slip right back into her old ways. People don't suddenly develop morals and work ethic. Those are core traits that are developed at a young age. If their survival depends on it, they might pretend for a while, but it isn't their natural state.


I hope this is not true. But I have to say, this is a real fear I have.

Sometimes I feel like I'm contorted into an impossible pretzel. I have to keep the expectations low enough to approach, but high enough to stick. I don't even know for sure if those two sets intersect. So far I'm unable to get the first part right.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

I appreciate your comments a lot. They are a valuable check on the naturally one sided nature of a thread posted by an anonymous spouse.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Diplomats are people with susceptibility to resentments too...


Agreed. Being diplomatic is not the same thing as being impervious (in fact, saying so I think would be more passive aggressive than anything else). I describe myself as a diplomat in that I'm perceptive of how people feel, care about it, and am intuitively responsive to it. I don't just mean that to sound like a nice human. I have plenty of weaknesses. This is one of my strengths. I cite it at all to help give context, some of the responses were assuming I was coming on too strong with my wife about my expectations. While anything's possible, I feel pretty confident this isn't the case.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> You said she did not want to be a mom to the extreme that divorce was mentioned and you take sole custody... what were these big early problems?


A clash of 2 of our weaknesses right from year 1. I was spineless, appeased all confrontation. She had anger issues. Our house was maximum uncomfortable. I'm sure there were anime angry lines constantly visible over our roof. This persisted through and beyond our daughter's birth. Her suggestion to divorce and surrender custody was surprising to me, and happened when our daughter was 2. I still had my fierce "One life, one wife" view and did not agree, she did not file.

We entered counseling sometime before our daughter was born. Our counselor was and still is the wisest person I've met. It turned out it was me who had to get better fist. He took me aside privately and said I had to stop falling over like a leaf. I had to be willing to risk and endure escalation of the anger if I ever wanted it to stop. That was a hard lesson and rather counter-intuitive for someone who believed in "give love, get love" full stop.

It took some convincing from him but I did start doing exactly that. If I was yelled at for something trivial, I would insist I won't be talked to that way. If I was accused of something untrue, I would represent my perspective without folding. What followed was a textbook definition of "getting worse before getting better". 

Nuclear freaking holocaust ensued for years. And not just with my wife. Her father, her friends, and others in her extended family had choice words with me every chance they had. It was indescribably hard to stand firm in all of their wakes while not being drawn over the line, and simultaneously treating her feelings as valid. I fell short more than I'd like. I succeeded enough.

She got better too, but it took years. I can still fall into "peace at all costs" behavior, and she is still rather volatile. But there was a definite day where we both realized these things had become the exception and not the rule. We had peace in our house. We were not a typical house by most standards, but we were happy and we became close. I don't know how much our daughter soaked up at her young age, but she seems to not remember any dark times at all.

I pry this open because you ask, and it likely is relevant to today, perhaps a recurrence of sorts. For most purposes though, I focus only on the time of peace and leave the dark times in the past. And I mean that more than just a cliche. My wife and I do occasionally refer to these times, but only ever in appreciation of how far we've come. Never to hold over each other. As far as I'm concerned, those were other people.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Could it be in this time of decision and finalizing a degree that she came to a decision this was her role and would be so until the end?
> 
> Kind of an in her mind "fine, you want it you got it" to the place where any change would be intolerable as the pain of the hard times was not something to be addressed again (fear)?


I'm not sure I completely understand the question? The degree happenned after our era of peace began. I picked up on no indication that she wanted to tap out of pulling the load with me until our daughter left.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Again, I do not know her perspective, only yours by what you've shared... but she is where she is for a reason.


I very much want to understand where she is.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Resentments can develop into lifestyles, anchored into being... my ex-wife resented me being a soldier, hated me for it when I returned from DS actually yet married me while one and in the end I learned many feelings she had were directly built on this one particular resentment alone as 15 years military isn't shed easily, if at all.
> 
> Her recurring feelings of anger, when thinking about a specific interaction or experience as I struggled coming home from some of what I saw, I think her regret for marrying me even with children, the tense relationship of what she saw of different morals, her attempt to devalue my success as I left her feeling "less" in her choices (my motivation was a much different level than hers), along with the overall tension that I wanted to solve things in a way foreign to her and her understanding.
> 
> I share this as perspective, nothing more so it there is no alignment with your situation then that is good in a sense, but I do believe there is more unsaid than said in her position of place in life.


I am going to reflect on this. It does sound different, but I think there is enough overlap for me to learn something about my wife and I. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> WOW!


IKR? I went to sleep and woke up thinking about her story. I can't shake it (not that I'm trying).


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## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

I didn't realise my story was all that rare. I've met quite a few women who have careers, then get married, quit working (or suddenly decide they want to 'start a business and can't possibly get a proper job', then mess around for a few years doing little to nothing (maybe have a child or two) while acting like a moody diva and treating their husbands like crap the whole time. By 50 they've either cheated multiple times (I've had far too many very sweet, suburbian type wives ask me to introduce them to men I know) or they decide the marriage is terrible and walk away with half your money in a divorce. The others give up even pretending to work and just spend the next 20-40 years lazing around.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Thank you Robert,



Robert22205 said:


> IMO you shouldn't spend a lot of time dwelling on whether it's fair for her not to work. Why? because it's a slippery slope encouraging you to feel like you're a victim. From your posts your life and marriage is better than most - so don't blow a good thing with self pity/destructive thoughts.


I think this is good advice that covers a lot of things. Basically, don't sweat the small stuff. And in a marriage, even some of the bigger stuff needs more accommodation than in other relationships. I'm not convinced that this advice applies to this particular disagreement though. I believe there are issues which warrant going all the way over. My current thinking is that this may be one of those issues. It goes to the heart of self-respect, I don't think it's something that can be absorbed without leaking out later. At stake is whether we are still equal partners, or if I am to simply follow her lead into becoming her benefactor. Most any other disagreement we could have does not threaten to re-define the nature of our relationship so fundamentally and indeed should not be dwelt on if change isn't possible. I'm not so sure this issue qualifies, but I remain open to the possibility that my reasoning is flawed.



Robert22205 said:


> A healthier and more constructive role for you (as her life partner) is to focus on helping her lead the best version of her life.


I strive for this. I do have to make sure my actions remain empowering and don't cross completely into enabling. That's a fine line to walk, I'm sure I can do it better.



Robert22205 said:


> I don't see your wife as lazy or bad or deserving criticism. I see someone that's scared & lost and needs help to live the best version of their life. After all this time, it will be a slow process requiring a lot of patience on your part. Avoid nagging or pushing too hard - because she'll resist and maybe regress each time.


I'm not sure I know what ultimately underlies her refusal to join me in working. Certainly a healthy and understandable dose of fear is involved. I don't know that I can rule out all other possible reasons or motives though. Based on things she's said and how recent years have unfolded, I sometimes wonder if she does feel owed on some level, but doesn't want to say it or doesn't know how to. I don't poke at this - this remains to be seen.

I do understand the impulse to advise patience, restraint, understanding, and I agree with those virtues. It's easy to imagine that our fights on this issue consist of me pressuring her, or digging away little by little at her self-respect. I try to create space and empowerment. I'm open to doing that better or learning about how I might be causing her unhelpful feelings. If that is the case, it may just take a professional counselor to provide that level of additional nuance to how we currently engage.



Robert22205 said:


> Instead of you declaring that she needs to find a job, try re-framing this as her trying a new hobby (something fullfilling). If she doesn't like it she can stop and try something else.


I never walk into the room and say "hey, d'ja get that job yet?", or "hey, ya signed up for school yet?" She knows that I want her as an equal partner, and this comes out of thoughtful discussions about life and mutual goals, planning for retirement, respectful relationship talk. These discussions often do go sideways in a very blind-siding, almost nonsensical fashion, so we do have them infrequently. In between we do normal married stuff. Yes I have growing resentment. If your advice is not to harp on that with her, I agree and I do not. If your advice is to swallow it indefinitely for the sake of the relationship, I don't think that's who I want to be. This will ultimately have to be resolved one way or the other.

She does engage in hobbies/interests, a reasonable and healthy number of them in my view. I encourage and facilitate all of her interests. I love her music and her garden. I don't much like her movies, but hey, that's just me and I will watch them. I don't want her to stop doing these things - far from it. I like these parts of her.



Robert22205 said:


> I think certain industries are more receptive to late starts (e.g., health care). Maybe (when the pandemic is under control) she could volunteer 1 day a week at the hospital and observe first hand the different roles (and training required).


This is really good advice. I'll try and guage her interest in health care the next time we approach this issue.



Robert22205 said:


> Finally, since your wife may now see you as more concerned about money than her best interests, your best ally is your daughter.


I would hope she does not see me that way. Wanting her to have independence is not contrary to her best interests. Whether she believes it is is kind of the whole question I think.

Beyond that, who is more interested in money and riches? The person who expects to work for their wage, or the person who expects others to? Of all the virtues one could assign to being a comfortable retiree mom at 45, being unconcerned with material wealth is not one of them, and I know she's not so naive to think so. It takes wealth to do that, not an insignificant amount. Living a comfortable life your whole life while working for only 18 years is not wrong to strive for, but certainly not the lifestyle of someone who isn't preoccupied with having money.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ejay said:


> That's really the crux of the disconnect for me. I respect your viewpoint, though I can't seem to connect those two dots: raise daughter -> do F all. She didn't completely sac her career, there's still time for one, it's just delayed. It won't last 50 years like mine will, but certainly 25 is possible.


There is clearly some resentment there which hasn't been addressed. She is doing this for a reason and, as Emerging Buddhist says, it sounds like " I stayed at home, sacrificed my career for the family, now you take the consequences". I think she feels entitled because of her sacrifice. She didn't want to be a mum, she did it, and now she is resentful. You need to get to the root cause. Maybe some couple counselling would help.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> There is clearly some resentment there which hasn't been addressed. She is doing this for a reason and, as Emerging Buddhist says, it sounds like " I stayed at home, sacrificed my career for the family, now you take the consequences". I think she feels entitled because of her sacrifice. She didn't want to be a mum, she did it, and now she is resentful. You need to get to the root cause. Maybe some couple counselling would help.


To SAHM or not to SAHM was her choice. If she is harboring redentment about SAHM, I'm unaware and not sure why it'd be directed at me. But maybe you're right. If so, I hope it will come out in counseling


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ejay said:


> To SAHM or not to SAHM was her choice. If she is harboring redentment about SAHM, I'm unaware and not sure why it'd be directed at me. But maybe you're right. If so, I hope it will come out in counseling


People can harbour resentment unconsciously. And it can come out at a later stage. You are not aware of it. Was the baby planned?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I do hope you could both go to counseling together.

It's one thing for us to put forward opinions, life experiences, place her into a box, place you into a box, make assumptions about character, give suggestions about study and employment pathways... but it's very different when a good therapist is hearing from both of you and observing the dynamic. When my husband and I went to counseling, there was no result in mind - staying together or not. It was simply to understand. I think it would help you both to understand where you're each coming from. So if you're unable to do that with one another; then someone to help guide you (both) may be beneficial.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Also, in your opening post you mentioned divorce - and have been married 25 years. I'm of the opinion that it's worth really understanding; for yourselves and the dynamic. If she does not agree to counseling, then go solo. I'm sure there's more you will learn about your own discretion, style of conflict etc. in order to become more congruent.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

oh and P.S: best wishes.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> I grew up with a stay at home mom. She's now a stay at home wife.
> 
> I don't understand why she feels so much fear about facing the world outside the house. My mom didn't finish high school, and I believe (or want to believe) she has a learning disability.
> Through out the years, she would have little businesses like selling stuff but she never wanted to go back to school and get her hs diploma. That drove me crazy.
> ...


I really respect what you're doing, thank you very much for sharing that. What you describe is very much like what I'm hoping for.



pastasauce79 said:


> I don't think she's a bad person but I don't understand how anybody would feel good and satisfied by staying home all day! What does she do all day??? What motivates her?? Where does she see herself in a few years when your daughter becomes more independent and less available?
> 
> Is this part of a midlife crisis?


I have no doubt there is intense fear involved for her. I find myself struggling over what (if anything) might lie beneath that fear.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> Also, in your opening post you mentioned divorce - and have been married 25 years. I'm of the opinion that it's worth really understanding; for yourselves and the dynamic. If she does not agree to counseling, then go solo. I'm sure there's more you will learn about your own discretion, style of conflict etc. in order to become more congruent.


I most definitely would go solo in that case. I recognize I need advice and perspective right now. Even hard advice has a sweet catharsis to it.

All this talk of divorce, it's the end state of just one possible road, a road I'm building confidence that I shouldn't leave off the table. It's definitely not the next step.

Order of operations (in my mind):

1) consult lawyer to understand my footing. Basically, does the state agree with me or my wife? If I decide I'm willing to go to the mat over this, I have to understand the stakes first. I may still go to the mat even if the statutes think I should work for her indefinitely so she doesn't have to, but that would be a more complicated decision.

2) Initiate counseling. I have no idea how long this step will take or what recommendations we'll be following, but I suspect by the end of this step we'll know the broad strokes of what our roles are for the rest of our lives.

3) Either divorce, surrender, or enjoy life with my increasingly independent wife while we work towards renewed mutual goals equipped with improved relationship skills.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> People can harbour resentment unconsciously. And it can come out at a later stage. You are not aware of it. Was the baby planned?


Yes and no I guess. We did agree early on about having one child, but never specifically tried or used any fertility aids.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

In reading your description about your early relationship and her rotten attitude and treatment of you... I can’t help but feel like this is all some kind of spite towards you. Like she has underlying resentment about you expecting her to makes changes in the past, (because she was awful) and for her “sacrifice” of becoming a mother. I get the vibe like maybe this is her getting the last dig in at you, she’s gonna show you... Maybe I’m way off but my hat is off to you for working through all that past crap and sticking around. No one can say you haven’t made an effort, that’s for sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

Ella-Bee said:


> I didn't realise my story was all that rare.


For me it was powerful simply because I felt like you were holding a mirror at me. An imperfect mirror, definitely some differences, but still a mirror.

I felt like I was Ebenezar Scrooge being visited by the ghosts of marriage past, present, and future, except the ghosts were actually my daughter. You showed me a blurry view of my past, a more focused picture of my present, and a bleak possible outcome of my future if I don't take action.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> You want to divorce your wife over this? She's raised your child, she's been a good mum and and a good wife and now you want to "sack" her? Did you write a contract specifying she had to get a job once she raised your daughter? Of course she thinks that her job is finished... she's done her bit. Just love her the way she is and for what's she's done and for what she's contributed to your lovely family. And one word of advice: don't talk to you daughter. She will hate you for this. Been there.


 So raising a child through high school is all the "part" a wife has to do??? Sign me up for that job.!!. What a ridiculous postion to hold.If she was managing the household there might be an argument here; but, she isn't.


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## ejay (Apr 16, 2020)

3Xnocharm said:


> In reading your description about your early relationship and her rotten attitude and treatment of you... I can’t help but feel like this is all some kind of spite towards you. Like she has underlying resentment about you expecting her to makes changes in the past, (because she was awful) and for her “sacrifice” of becoming a mother. I get the vibe like maybe this is her getting the last dig in at you, she’s gonna show you... Maybe I’m way off but my hat is off to you for working through all that past crap and sticking around. No one can say you haven’t made an effort, that’s for sure.


I really appreciate the support you're expressing, but I feel compelled to offer some balance.

I didn't stick through those dark years just for her, at least not at first. For me a big part of it was devotion to an absolute dogma that I don't even hold anymore: One life, one wife. She believed in no such dogma and she could have left too. She was young and had a well off family to return to. I believe her reasons for staying were more centered on me than mine were on her.

Also, those dark years forged us in ways we could never have done without being essentially locked in a cage together. I like who I became coming out a lot better than going in, and she feels the same about herself. I like to think that this is a big part of why we don't hold those years over each other. If either of us had left we'd have just taken our respective issues right into our next relationship. My dysfunction was no better than hers, even though it doesn't read that way in hindsight. Would I have had an easier time with someone else? Maybe. But I have qualities now that I like that I don't think I could have forged in an easier life.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> She sacrificed her career to be a SAHM... so, she's made her sacrifice and now her husband wants her to go back to work. What job is she going to get in her late forties with no work experience? If the OP divorces her, he will still be working to pay alimony, etc... it's just pointless. He should have thought about it before. Now it's too late.
> 
> Also, I don't think they are having a dead bedroom situation? I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere...


You make a reasonable point. 

Of course, taking on the responsibility or working life later is actually scary and being stuck in a rut is far more comfortable. It might be his wife has constructed a gilded cage for herself. If it goes to court, of course it will be said that she desperately wanted to work, but he insisted she stay home.

I have been in the position or a woman, whom I would expect to go on to be very successful in her career say she wanted a stay-at-home husband. Even with tradition against it, when times are rough, it was surprisingly tempting. When it is a traditional role it would be even more tempting. But, it is shirking responsbility.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Well stay at home mom isn’t her role any more. Now if she chooses not to work, her SAHM means stay at home mooch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Sounds to me like you folks had a near nuclear meltdown in early-stage of marriage where princess from a rich-family background finally agreed to take on SAHM Mom role due to societal guilt. The 25/30-year-old version of her knew that society would have a very dim view of her not even engaging in the very basic family building process that everyone goes through. She did not take on the SAHM role out of love for you or for your daughter. She did it because it was the most "face-saving" thing she could pull off with the least amount of effort. 

As we grow older, we all pay less attention to these societal pressures and gravitate more to our "true state of being." Her state of being appears to be a sense of privilege (nurtured by rich original family) that mooches off the most convenient source -that would be you. Essentially, she resents you (and society in general) for making her work beyond her preferred princess-level of work output. Now that she has her "badge of respectability" from her SAHM efforts, society can no longer shame her into working. And she doesn't "need" to work because she has you to provide for the finances.

Making this an issue of "making money," however, is a losing proposition. If you make it a "you have to make $30K a year," it simply becomes a matter of her thinking "I have to work so my lazy husband can retire earlier - even though I've already done my part in giving up my career and raising the best daughter anyone could ever hope for."

Rather, your only hope here is to frame the argument around activity and that you don't want to spend the rest of your life with someone who chooses to be a lump on the log for the rest of her life. Tell her that you're losing respect for her - and falling out of love - because she's not actively participating in making the world around her better.

There are multiple ways that she could make things better. She could help out by taking on a bigger share of the housework and maybe supplementing that with some serious volunteer duties (not the women's auxilliary for lunch - a real volunteer rolling her sleeves up and helping somebody directly.) Or she can go to school. Or she can get a paying job. If she chooses none of the above by September (the time for real school to begin again), you promise to start divorce proceedings (but only threaten if you think you will follow through with it.)

Without an ultimatum, nothing will ever change. If you are committed to pushing this type of change, you will have to remove the comfortable options currently available to her.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> There are multiple ways that she could make things better.


I disagree. Things won't be better, because someone is going to have to make a choice they don't like and resent the other. I think we should pay great attention to the accusation of "misogyny". That tells you all you need to know about the OP's wife thinking... it's a lost cause.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> someone is going to have to make a choice they don't like and resent the other.


And, as has been said articulately, the OP is already being forced to "make the choice" - she, with weapons the "me" generation created, like "misogyny", and the industrial revolution created, like "long-term spousal support" ..... has the perfect family-of-origin-created, passive-aggressive solution.....

"....she's got a ticket to ri-ide....she's got a ticket to ride..she's got a ticket to ride.....and she don't care....."


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TJW said:


> has the perfect family-of-origin-created, passive-aggressive solution.....


Why is it passive-aggressive?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Because she doesn't use her fists or a gun to get what she wants, only words and implied threats.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TJW said:


> Because she doesn't use her fists or a gun to get what she wants, only words and implied threats.


Like most of the world's population? Maybe she needs a bit of disinfectant...


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