# Need womens opinions wife said scary thing



## weightlifter

Im near the end of my rope.
Background

Mid 40s both of us. 10 years married. 2 school age kids.
We are not in a good place right now. 
Tried setting up dates. First one worked. After that she got less and less enthusiastic. They were not even sex dates but take her out and pay attention to her dates. Last one I set up. When I said asked her to go out with me she looked like I asked her to eat a poop sandwich.
I ask for sex most days and get it about 2x a month. I get that same poop sandwich look. Note I never beg. I know that is unattractive.

She had light email EA with ex. I squashed it hard and got it early. Told her to pick him or me.
She went nuke b!tch at me in front of my parents. My father wants me to move in with them in another state and get wife and kids an apt nearby!
She did it in front of coworkers once a couple years ago. Two coworkers came up separately told me she was mean to me and offered me temp housing. (I am extremely loyal to friends and I have GREAT friends)

***SHE FORGOT OUR ANNIVERSARY!*** WHAT WOMAN FORGETS HER ANNIVERSARY? (Im not that dumb. I took her out and everything)

We had a near sexless 10 months June 2012 Thru Mar 2013 + last month. 1-2x a month. She would go up to 5 days (typically 4 days) between showers just to discourage me from asking for sex because she knows I am very clean myself and shower EVERY night.

Nov to Mar I lost 30 lbs and weigh 7 pounds less than when we met. I think I look damn good for a mid 40s guy. Women customers flirt a good amount with me. I NEVER respond. YEa I like the ego boost I admit, but I made vows.
Every night I would go to bed with an I-Love-You and get back "yea right" or "maybe" etc
She used to initiate 2x a month. It has been 2x in 12 months. She half initiated maybe 2x more.
Sex was 85% duty sex. April was decent after my vas was delcared clear. We had 2 huge blowouts in March and I openly asked her if she wanted to still be my wife. She said yes, but I think she is lying and just doesnt want to be 2x divorced.
She says she is into sex with me. Maybe 6x in the past year that was true. The rest was spew and get off me.
I can account for 99.5% of her time. Any PA would have to be IN CHURCH literally so I rather doubt it. She is getting more and more conservative in bed. 

She said in late Feb that the only reason we are not divorced is she does not believe in divorce (even tho she D her first husband. VERY young marriage WAY back early 90s) Then she denied she said it.
She is a classic blame shifter. She backed our cars into each other doing 2K damage. She blamed me for parking them wrong. (AYFKM)
We kiss. She will do it maybe 10 seconds then she turns her head.

Incident Mar 18 2013. 12:40AM 2.5 weeks after her EA I found. I hug her good night. I say I love you. She said, "maybe". Something in me died at that moment. It was so strong I FELT IT AND LOOKED AT MY WATCH. PART OF ME CHANGED AND I THINK SHE LITERALLY stuck the final knife in my love for her and it flatlined the first time. I think it came back a few times but she knifed those pretty good. Now...
I am trying to get feelings back but she wants a hug on occasion and I feel no more than I would hugging a statue. I want it back but after all the hit after hit after hit after hit FOR about 6 years. It just wont seem to come back. I want very much to say I love you. But those words are sacred to me and I just cant. They roll easy off my tongue to my kids I have zero problem saying it to them.

I want the love back but all I feel is. Nothing. Literally.
I am NOT perfect. I can be intense when working on something. I sometimes forget to talk a little more simply and de-engineer speak when talking to her. (MY IQ is 140. Ill estimate hers at 110. I know she says I sometimes make her feel dumb. I TRY not to. Im sure there IS other stuff. She is mad at me 25-30% of the time. Yes really. I dont think I am 25-30% azzhole deserving this.

Anyway the scary thing she said to me was this:
"IF you were to have an affair I would never know" Note the future tense. Am I imagining things or is she telling me to go out and find a mistress and leave her alone on sex? Note this WILL NOT happen but it makes me think this ship is far more gone than I imagine.

For the record.
I have not EVER had an affair
I have not EVER had an EA
I have not EVER even lip kissed another woman since exclusivity was agreed on.


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## Michelleinmichigan

Assuming you aren't a porn fiend, and your sex drive is healthy, it seems you know something is wrong with her. How did you find out about the EA? At this point there could be numerous possibilities.

Maybe she feels guilty about that affair, and thinks that if you did the same it wouldn't make her feel so bad about herself? Maybe the fact that you stay so strong, makes her feel even worse.

It js hard for a woman to sleep with her husband/boyfriend after being with another man. Between the guilt, and the difference of the passionate fling, it isn't good. Perhaps there was more than an EA.

Most women who aren't happy in their marriage aren't willing to be the bad guy, and wait for husbands to screw up, and leave, in order to save face for the kids. People like to be able to rationalize bad things they do. They feel better if they can say well he/she did it too. You really do need marriage counseling. 

I would start to take a look at her phone records computer activity etc. Something is obviously going on, and all you can really do is start to look into things a little more. 

Look at her computer history, social networking sites etc. also look at her phone records, texting at strange times, a certain number that show up more than yours over a period time. Etc good luck


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## mablenc

Hmm, I think that is cheater code for , I'm still having the affair I just went underground. 

Which can explain why she's not connecting fully with you. 

Just my thoughts, hope I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

March 2 2013 758AM a time forever burned into my memory. I get up and use her comp to check weather. She accidentally left the email up. Top email is from an ex. Subject line "are mareidge" This is half literate hillbilly for "our marriage" Basically them spooning. I got it early into inappropriateness. She sucks at computers and forgets about the sent box. 

She showed me (or rather I saw) 1 email early Sept said she wasnt going to email him back much and that the only other one was a month before. Yea dumb me before I came to TAM. 

I snoop. I find 1 month is really AT LEAST 5 and probably more than that. April 12 2012 was first one and had references before that. The stuff April to Nov is boring this is my life crap. Dec turns into spooning type stuff.

I shut it down HARD. Told her outright right there email back and NC. Told her pick him or me. She did pick me and wrote the email. She goes nuke b!ctch tells me "you snooped its none of your business" I told her shes my wife she IS my business. 3 days silent treatment and one of her infamous letters about how much I suck. 

Sex except april was 1 -2 x a month. Id like 4 a week. Ill take 2 and call it a win. Then again. Duty sex. meh.

Had the convo of does she really want to be my wife like about 4 days later. She says yes I really want to be your wife. Things were decent April, Meh May, June sucked again. I guess I just have to scare her every month.

Gotta go take son to dr. Be back with rest.

BTW thanks


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## tom67

LanieB said:


> The thing is, I don't think she's "scared" of you (or of losing you) at all. She doesn't seem to be trying to work on your relationship, and she doesn't believe you're going anywhere (divorce). I wouldn't doubt it at all that she and the ex are still in contact. You had to basically force her to write a NC e-mail, and what usually happens in these circumstances, is that the WS contacts the AP soon after to tell him/her they were forced to write it. If she works, she can always contact him while she's there - or set up a new e-mail account, etc, etc.
> 
> If she isn't truly remorseful and trying hard to work on your relationship, then she either still has feelings for the ex or she's still in contact with him.


Unfortunately this sounds possible.


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## Shaggy

I'd be hunting a bit for the EA not ending or perhaps a new one starting up.


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## Michelleinmichigan

It doesn't sound good. It really isn't fair to you, to have you guessing like this. I'm not one to recommend divorce, but i would recommend talking to a lawyer just to prepare for worst case scenario.

I do get the impression she takes you for granted, and I think you need to truly be willing to walk away for her to ever change. Try the 180 "I wish you well" attitude thing that some guys recommend. She is not entitled to go crazy on you every time she doesn't like something. That is something that needed to be stopped a long time ago.

Snoop, talk to a lawyer, work on yourself more, be upbeat, your change in attitude might shake her up a little bit. Have fun with your sons without her. Intense, can be hard do deal with, but her actions are wrong. If you find anything, leave her, and be emotionless about it. Just make sure she understands that is the result/consequences of her actions. don't even argue about it. Let her come after you trying to figure things out.

If you want to try and help your marriage, you need to reestablish your value, and your relationship. You need to be the boss.


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## MrK

I'm not sure what you are asking. She doesn't love you and won't ever again. Mid-40's and attractive? Get out of this mess. Now. Find someone who loves you. 

She's gone, and nothings gonna' bring her back.

She's gone.


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## Cora28

It sounds to me as though she has emotionally checked out of the relationship. Has she got any resentment issues as it sounds like she has? Have you had any counselling either individually or together? Is there someone else on the scene? Don´t rule it out as it is possible. 

I think you both need to sit down and have a good heart-to-heart. Also, the book His Needs Her Needs comes highly recommended here, on TAM. I´m waiting for my copy so I can´t tell you if it´s any good but a friend´s H of mine has read it and he has completely changed much to her surprise.


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## Prodigal

weightlifter said:


> Sex except april was 1 -2 x a month. Id like 4 a week. Ill take 2 and call it a win. Then again. Duty sex. meh.
> 
> Had the convo of does she really want to be my wife like about 4 days later. She says yes I really want to be your wife. Things were decent April, Meh May, June sucked again. I guess I just have to scare her every month.


Does your wife work? If not, it sounds to me like she is willing to string you along as her ATM machine.

I'm sorry. Your wife erupting in front of your family and coworkers shows complete lack of respect. 

And having to "scare" her every month just to get so-so or duty sex? Life is too short, my friend. Way too short.


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## weightlifter

Kind of all over today. Brain not in a good place ATM.

MC would only be church based and they are the stick until she bangs the neighbor or comes at you with a gun type. I am a believer. I guess a bad one cause as wierd as it sounds. I believe in love and having a woman in my life. If I got D I would date eventually after getting my head on straight. Yea I know not kosher but I love a womans soft touch.

I miss:
That loose arms around the neck looking into your eyes thing. ya silly crap but I miss it.
You are fvcking her good and you get that "you are fvcking me so good" look in her eyes and of course "oh gawd..."
gah losing focus here
face to face straddle fvck makeout sex... those were the days.

The wife revises history. She basically denied the "late Feb that the only reason we are not divorced is she does not believe in divorce" thing when I brought it up later. Unfortunately I didnt think to ask her wft she meant by that when she said the "IF you were to have an affair I would never know" thing. It was just such a shock. She would just deny.

Funny you bring up porn. Just remembered 3ish weeks ago I was horny and she told me to go "service yourself" Jeez how could I forget that one. Before that porn was the devil.

I have been on her comp. Nothing. Unfortunately the good keyloggers are like a hundred bucks we dont have to spare right now. She doesnt use cell phone. I just got her to use a digital camera.

PA unlikely but not impossible. It would have to be low tech and literally at church. yea possible but not all that likely. After March 2 I am James Effing Bond logging her time, emails, trips out... I hate not trusting but I never will trust her 100% again. Might get to the 90% range some day.

PA march-jun last year. Possible but still seems unlikely due to timing. Mostly she only knows the people at church. I wasnt watching then. Could be but I doubt it. Timing does correlate with the ex emails that started but they were boring until Nov. Could be pining for him I guess. Half literate hillbilly and yes, I did find it insulting she picked HIM of all people.

I already do some of the 180. She gets in a snit says sarcastically, "just go to your computer and listen to your music" So I go to my computer and listen to my music. Old me woulda went what did I do what did I do. fun to make her argue against herself.

Im still in shock what my father said about moving in with them. He was like, how can you take this for so many years. guess Im a tough sob. That and my friends a couple years ago when she went nuke b!tch on me in front of them. Gotta say I love my friends for the offers like that. Course Ive gone to the wall to help them so I guess its a good kind of payback.

>Maybe she feels guilty about that affair, and thinks that if you did the same it wouldn't make her feel so bad about herself? Maybe the fact that you stay so strong, makes her feel even worse.< Kind of doubt it. She compartmentalizes and blames anyone but herself. Like the car thing. I parked them wrong? I was having none of that. I told her just apologize for not paying attention and Ill be fine in an hour.
I HAVE to be strong. She is weak. I am head of household and have a crushing ton of responsibilty. Last 10 loads of laundry. me.
30 loads of dishes. Me. These HAVE to be done so I do them. Half the meals me. Not gonna clean the house too. Its a sty.

Lanie B. Well said. I do monitor.

I am upbeat most of the time. I am always improving myself. Lost 30 pounds. I think I look pretty good for a mid 40s dude. Im always upbeat around my friends who btw range in age from 25 to 68 at work. I walk into work I get "WEIGHTLIFTER!" well my real name but you get the idea. 

Gotta get back to the gym. Money a problem now. For me. had to move furniture. 15 years ago woulda been easy. Now. Was hard. Was personally embarassing. But it IS on radar.

I take the kids out. Hell I usually take them to the park because its better for them. I DONT let her control the day. I am always working on me nowadays.

I honestly have no idea how I rate on the 10 scale other than Im sure its neither 0-3 nor 8-10. If I guess.. 6? 5.5? Belly gone. half in shape working on the rest but progress slows.


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## weightlifter

I just cant think of ANY other context of future tense

"IF you were to have an affair I would never know"


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## treyvion

weightlifter said:


> Im near the end of my rope.
> Background
> 
> Mid 40s both of us. 10 years married. 2 school age kids.
> We are not in a good place right now.
> Tried setting up dates. First one worked. After that she got less and less enthusiastic. They were not even sex dates but take her out and pay attention to her dates. Last one I set up. When I said asked her to go out with me she looked like I asked her to eat a poop sandwich.
> I ask for sex most days and get it about 2x a month. I get that same poop sandwich look. Note I never beg. I know that is unattractive.


You "ask" but don't "beg"?



weightlifter said:


> She had light email EA with ex. I squashed it hard and got it early. Told her to pick him or me.
> She went nuke b!tch at me in front of my parents. My father wants me to move in with them in another state and get wife and kids an apt nearby!
> She did it in front of coworkers once a couple years ago. Two coworkers came up separately told me she was mean to me and offered me temp housing. (I am extremely loyal to friends and I have GREAT friends)


Did squashing this help her reaction and interaction with you, or did it hurt it even more?



weightlifter said:


> ***SHE FORGOT OUR ANNIVERSARY!*** WHAT WOMAN FORGETS HER ANNIVERSARY? (Im not that dumb. I took her out and everything)


She didn't forget.



weightlifter said:


> We had a near sexless 10 months June 2012 Thru Mar 2013 + last month. 1-2x a month. She would go up to 5 days (typically 4 days) between showers just to discourage me from asking for sex because she knows I am very clean myself and shower EVERY night.


Disgusting and crazy.



weightlifter said:


> Nov to Mar I lost 30 lbs and weigh 7 pounds less than when we met. I think I look damn good for a mid 40s guy. Women customers flirt a good amount with me. I NEVER respond. YEa I like the ego boost I admit, but I made vows.


Did getting your physical condition help you at all with your own spouse? 



weightlifter said:


> Every night I would go to bed with an I-Love-You and get back "yea right" or "maybe" etc
> She used to initiate 2x a month. It has been 2x in 12 months. She half initiated maybe 2x more.
> Sex was 85% duty sex. April was decent after my vas was delcared clear. We had 2 huge blowouts in March and I openly asked her if she wanted to still be my wife. She said yes, but I think she is lying and just doesnt want to be 2x divorced.
> She says she is into sex with me. Maybe 6x in the past year that was true. The rest was spew and get off me.
> I can account for 99.5% of her time. Any PA would have to be IN CHURCH literally so I rather doubt it. She is getting more and more conservative in bed.


She might want the security of a you, and outsource the sex part. After going through all the TAM stuff, do you really want to force her to be in the position of your wife, when there are others who would happily do so?



weightlifter said:


> She said in late Feb that the only reason we are not divorced is she does not believe in divorce (even tho she D her first husband. VERY young marriage WAY back early 90s) Then she denied she said it.
> She is a classic blame shifter. She backed our cars into each other doing 2K damage. She blamed me for parking them wrong. (AYFKM)


She doesn't believe in divorce, but she believes that she can be with you and your needs to not get met...



weightlifter said:


> We kiss. She will do it maybe 10 seconds then she turns her head.


It would feel like rejection. It could train you to not want to do it. This may be completely intentional.



weightlifter said:


> Incident Mar 18 2013. 12:40AM 2.5 weeks after her EA I found. I hug her good night. I say I love you. She said, "maybe". Something in me died at that moment. It was so strong I FELT IT AND LOOKED AT MY WATCH. PART OF ME CHANGED AND I THINK SHE LITERALLY stuck the final knife in my love for her and it flatlined the first time. I think it came back a few times but she knifed those pretty good. Now.


It can only take so many blows, until it has a hole in it and it's deflated.



weightlifter said:


> I am trying to get feelings back but she wants a hug on occasion and I feel no more than I would hugging a statue. I want it back but after all the hit after hit after hit after hit FOR about 6 years. It just wont seem to come back. I want very much to say I love you. But those words are sacred to me and I just cant. They roll easy off my tongue to my kids I have zero problem saying it to them.


Have you gotten over the hugging a statue thing? Was it ever a more affectionate and wanted hug?



weightlifter said:


> I want the love back but all I feel is. Nothing. Literally.
> I am NOT perfect. I can be intense when working on something. I sometimes forget to talk a little more simply and de-engineer speak when talking to her. (MY IQ is 140. Ill estimate hers at 110. I know she says I sometimes make her feel dumb. I TRY not to. Im sure there IS other stuff. She is mad at me 25-30% of the time. Yes really. I dont think I am 25-30% azzhole deserving this.


You might not get it back. It's why many of us stay in these situations. Your brain is probably working hard on the "solution", which will get you back to where you thought you were with her. The reality of these situations, is that SOMETIMES it can come back, but the norm is that it does not.



weightlifter said:


> Anyway the scary thing she said to me was this:
> "IF you were to have an affair I would never know" Note the future tense. Am I imagining things or is she telling me to go out and find a mistress and leave her alone on sex? Note this WILL NOT happen but it makes me think this ship is far more gone than I imagine.


She's pretty much asking you to do it. She might already be doing her own. Wanting you to outsource the sexual portion.



weightlifter said:


> For the record.
> I have not EVER had an affair
> I have not EVER had an EA
> I have not EVER even lip kissed another woman since exclusivity was agreed on.


She's done alot of things that would make it nearly impossible for you to still want her. All of her actions kill the normal male desire for a spouse. It would kill your drive, your intiative, a bit of your masculinity to have that "taken" from you. Sometimes they do it on purpose...


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## Michelleinmichigan

She is acting as though she is holding a grudge. Did you do anything major, that caused problems between you? Remember that sometimes men go through hard times and act out as well, women can easily take that personally.

Does she work, and how is your work? Are you having financial troubles?


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## weightlifter

treyvion said:


> You "ask" but don't "beg"?
> Hey hon, wanna /gentle breast rub/ go have fun? Used to work a charm. or gentle breast touch etc. No I dont grab. When rejected I never let her see disappointment. I come back the next day.
> 
> Did squashing this help her reaction and interaction with you, or did it hurt it even more?
> Things that make me say hmmmm. Wont stand for it tho. She is free to pick him. Just expect the locks will be changed.
> 
> She didn't forget.
> Hit me with a hammer you ARE RIGHT
> 
> Disgusting and crazy.
> Tell me about it
> 
> Did getting your physical condition help you at all with your own spouse?
> Appears no. We both gained. I had "That moment" had to see the doc 3 weeks apart. Visit 1 was 215 lbs. Visit 2 was 218. RIGHT THEN AND THERE, I decided I was NOT going to hit 220. I cut soft drinks down by 80%. I was mostly looking to not gain but a funny thing happened. I lost weight and went down to 188 at 6'. No six pack. yet but the belly is gone and I can see the muscles below if I flex my stomach.
> 
> She might want the security of a you, and outsource the sex part. After going through all the TAM stuff, do you really want to force her to be in the position of your wife, when there are others who would happily do so?
> 
> so is ANYONE coming up with anything else that her statement could mean? I dont want that tho. I like knowing the face of the woman I am fvcking. Now realistically would I go on a wh0re binge if I got d and had opportunity? Probably, but long term I prefer a woman who is into me.
> 
> Honestly I have no idea how much game I have now. Then again at mid 40s I realize getting rejected does not casue the peen to fall off. Im hella bolder than my younger days in many ways.
> 
> I write alot about am an eyes are the mirrors of the soul kind of guy. I miss looking into eyes that are just into and happy being with me. No it doesnt hurt if she is naked and even better if she is into me and naked and saying oh gawd.
> 
> She doesn't believe in divorce, but she believes that she can be with you and your needs to not get met...
> 
> Yes I know
> 
> It would feel like rejection. It could train you to not want to do it. This may be completely intentional.
> 
> Will think on that. Not sure.
> 
> It can only take so many blows, until it has a hole in it and it's deflated.
> 
> Might that be why I am here today? Enquiring minds wanna know.
> 
> Have you gotten over the hugging a statue thing? Was it ever a more affectionate and wanted hug?
> 
> LOL let me hit this one out of the park /start sarcasm. YES WE HAD WILD DONKEY SEX (me and the statue) /end sarcasm
> 
> 
> The reason I brought it up is shouldnt I hate or dislike her? I just feel nothing and I know damn well I can feel cause I feel the love of my kids every time without effort. I used to feel it with her. Hell March 18th the night I think she killed my love **I FELT IT** that is probably why I felt it die its last strangled breath.
> 
> You might not get it back. It's why many of us stay in these situations. Your brain is probably working hard on the "solution", which will get you back to where you thought you were with her. The reality of these situations, is that SOMETIMES it can come back, but the norm is that it does not.
> 
> Understood. I do have to try for my kids sake. I do consider it part of the job description of "dad" note I will NEVER accept a plan B situation. If I find contact I will go effiing nuclear in a calm calculated cold cold cold way.
> 
> She's pretty much asking you to do it. She might already be doing her own. Wanting you to outsource the sexual portion.
> 
> Hate that others are agreeing with me on this. It kills me. I want that relationship where we are best friends who just fvck the living sh!t out of each other. One of my fave old positions: Face to face straddle fvck total makeout session. SO intense. She has to be into you do do that. damn I miss that. I am wierd. I actually like saying I love you. Now dont ask me to be Alan Alda and talk about my feeling but If I love someone I have zero problem letting her know.
> 
> She's done alot of things that would make it nearly impossible for you to still want her. All of her actions kill the normal male desire for a spouse. It would kill your drive, your intiative, a bit of your masculinity to have that "taken" from you. Sometimes they do it on purpose...


Never thought of it as such a controlled cold way. Part may well be subconscious. Thank you for a long detailed response. I am a very smart guy. I am never as smart as all of TAM put together.

Oh and to top it all effing off. She is being nice today.


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## always_alone

weightlifter said:


> I just cant think of ANY other context of future tense
> 
> "IF you were to have an affair I would never know"


This is not future tense, but subjunctive mood. I say this not for the grammar lesson, but for possible interpretations.

Subjunctive indicates unreality, a state of affairs that doesn't exist but could. By using this phrasing she could be

1. Worried that you are having or have had an affair without her knowledge
2. Afraid that you could have an affair without her ever finding out
3. Musing about the effect you having an affair could have on her
4. Trying to ascertain whether you carry any guilt that matches her own
5. Speculating about whether evening the score might help your relationship
6. Speculating what it might be like to have separate sex lives.


I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that it is an invitation.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I'm a mid-50s woman, and I'm with Mr. K on this one. Your wife has CHECKED OUT. She is NOT interested in having sex with you, she is NOT interested in being married to you. She *IS* interested in maintaining the status quo (your income, your house, her standing as a married woman/mother, etc.). What the hell she thinks YOU get out of that, I don't know!

If she can't/won't tell you why she is so angry with you (and she IS angry...angry or disgusted or both), then you need to MOVE ON as there is NO CHANCE of ever fixing something that isn't acknowledged and addressed. It's not suddenly magically going to get better.

Get out while you're young enough to build a new life.
Get out while it's early enough to mitigate the damage your children are witnessing and internalizing about how men/women, husbands/wives relate to each other.
Get out while there is time to find another GOOD relationship and teach your children the RIGHT THINGS via that relationship.

Good luck! I am a BIG proponent of leaving when you know it's wrong (and without your wife's full participation it will be unfixable)! 

Life is short, LIVE IT! Teach your children to LOVE IT!


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## weightlifter

always_alone said:


> I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that it is an invitation.


Just to be clear I D before I date. Invited or not.

>2. Afraid that you could have an affair without her ever finding out< I probably could. I also probably could steal from work and never get caught. Dont plan on either.

>5. Speculating about whether evening the score might help your relationship.< Not sure what the point of an EA is for me. does nothing for me. Honestly I dont get it. email about not having sex that you want? Uh OK. scratch head.


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## johnnycomelately

always_alone said:


> This is not future tense, but subjunctive mood. I say this not for the grammar lesson, but for possible interpretations.


Actually it's the second conditional. Sorry to be a twat.


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## treyvion

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I'm a mid-50s woman, and I'm with Mr. K on this one. Your wife has CHECKED OUT. She is NOT interested in having sex with you, she is NOT interested in being married to you. She *IS* interested in maintaining the status quo (your income, your house, her standing as a married woman/mother, etc.). What the hell she thinks YOU get out of that, I don't know!


She never even thought about what he got out of it. Actually, he gets to "have" her.



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> If she can't/won't tell you why she is so angry with you (and she IS angry...angry or disgusted or both), then you need to MOVE ON as there is NO CHANCE of ever fixing something that isn't acknowledged and addressed. It's not suddenly magically going to get better.


If this buildup has been ongoing for a long time period, it will not reverse quickly and easily. Humans take the path of least resistance usually, and for her this will be to continue on the path she is on.



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Get out while you're young enough to build a new life.
> Get out while it's early enough to mitigate the damage your children are witnessing and internalizing about how men/women, husbands/wives relate to each other.
> Get out while there is time to find another GOOD relationship and teach your children the RIGHT THINGS via that relationship.


You know this is an unhealthy interaction and it needs to end.



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Good luck! I am a BIG proponent of leaving when you know it's wrong (and without your wife's full participation it will be unfixable)!


Accept.



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Life is short, LIVE IT! Teach your children to LOVE IT!


Yes, it's important what we allow our kids to see and percieve as normal.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

weightlifter said:


> Anyway the scary thing she said to me was this:
> "IF you were to have an affair I would never know" Note the future tense. Am I imagining things or is she telling me to go out and find a mistress and leave her alone on sex?


What she is telling you, in my opinion, is that she despises and resents you so much, that while she values the safety net and security of the marriage she dislikes intensely your Mr. Nice Guy approach to it. 

Whilst I never implied to my husband to go and have an affair like your wife did to you, I did say things like this to him sometimes when he said he loved me.


> "yea right" or "maybe" etc


I said it to him because I was resentful and angry at his proclivity for forcing me into the masculine polarity when all I wanted was to feel like a woman and fully be a woman. He was, if you like, too much of a "woman" to me when all I wanted was a man.

There is so much more I could say about this, but the thread is about you, not me.


----------



## firefly789

She was willing to have an EA. She is cold to you. She doesn't want to be intimate with you. She "forgot" your anniversary. However, she can be nice once in a while (today). At this point, she doesn't want to be in a marriage with YOU. 

This could be fixable if she is willing to work on it. With no MC due to church that makes it harder. Would she be willing to go to Marriage Encounters or something like that? Have you sat down and let her know exactly how this makes you FEEL (using feeling statements which women respond to better sometimes instead of logic) and that you are questioning the marriage itself? Somewhere (I think it's Kimmycat) there's a thread of a woman who was super cold to her husband for 4 years until she realized that she was losing him to D. Then she woke up and did a total turn around and is trying to win her H back.


----------



## somethingelse

Yeah..I agree with everyone else when I say, your wife is emotionally dead. I also see a little resentment there...maybe from you stopping her EA, maybe from you're clean record and how nice you are to her. Maybe she's looking for more aggression from you rather than being killed with kindness?


----------



## weightlifter

Tried the aggression thing. No results. Kind of hated it.

Checked out. Yep. Had relations this week. Lets leave it at so weak I couldn't finish. Kept face turned etc.

Any more. I just work on me. I don't let her see the frustration. Concentrate on the kids.

Answering above. She doesn't do much of anything. Cooked a few meals this week. That's it.

Like I said. Tried the dates thing.  nada. I deliberately stay with her. She just stays on a facebook game (no not one with text) I engage, she says a few words then goes back to the game, then complains I don't talk to her. 

She blame shifts. See above car example.

In the past year I have changed. I used to do the classic beg "what did I do what did I do?" pansy weak crap. Now I look, evaluate if I'm at fault for something, and go on with whatever i wanted to do if she disengages. Now if Im wrong Ill actually admit it. A few weeks ago. I got overly impatient with my son, she called me on it, and she was right, so I made it up with my son. Mostly when she gets in a snit, the first reason shes mad wont match up with whatever she decides was the reason at the end.

Sometimes she wants clingy hugs. Guess I get to add friendzoned to the list.

I can only work on me and do what I can for the kids.

A year ago I might have caved when she backed the cars into each other. Last week I was having none of it.

Any others have any interpretation of the "If you had an affair..."


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

She's not putting ANY effort into your marriage. 

I do think she's still having the affair. Her actions are not at the least bit remorseful. She's not even meeting you half way with your requests. It sounds like she's deep in the "affair fog". Talking those out of the fog is difficult to impossible.

Personally, I would never given an ultimatum. I would of packed up and left. Infidelity is a deal breaker for me, even if there's children involved. I'd file for divorce. Let her have this hillbilly.

Her telling you that you suck was completely disrespectful and out of line!


----------



## hookares

weightlifter. Everybody is "into sex". It's just that not everybody will want it with you. This is where you find yourself.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Weightlifter you've been here long enough to know that asking for sex every day when you get rejected every day is just as unattractive as begging. You're being passive agressive and you really are showing nice guy traits. The paster above was right. She wasn't saying get aggressive. Anyway it's probably too late for any of that alpha crap. I think a 180 has a chance to wake her up, but not much of one.


----------



## somethingelse

weightlifter said:


> Tried the aggression thing. No results. Kind of hated it.
> 
> Checked out. Yep. Had relations this week. Lets leave it at so weak I couldn't finish. Kept face turned etc.
> 
> Any more. I just work on me. I don't let her see the frustration. Concentrate on the kids.
> 
> Answering above. She doesn't do much of anything. Cooked a few meals this week. That's it.
> 
> Like I said. Tried the dates thing. nada. I deliberately stay with her. *She just stays on a facebook game (no not one with text) I engage, she says a few words then goes back to the game, then complains I don't talk to her*.
> 
> *She blame shifts*. See above car example.
> 
> In the past year I have changed. *I used to do the classic beg "what did I do what did I do?"* pansy weak crap. Now I look, evaluate if I'm at fault for something, and go on with whatever i wanted to do if she disengages. Now if Im wrong Ill actually admit it. A few weeks ago. I got overly impatient with my son, she called me on it, and she was right, so I made it up with my son. Mostly when she gets in a snit, the first reason shes mad wont match up with whatever she decides was the reason at the end.
> 
> *Sometimes she wants clingy hugs*. Guess I get to add friendzoned to the list.
> 
> I can only work on me and do what I can for the kids.
> 
> A year ago I might have caved when she backed the cars into each other. Last week I was having none of it.
> 
> Any others have any interpretation of the "If you had an affair..."


I'm really familiar with the way you describe her. She's having pity parties and she's trying to manipulate you and twist things her way. It's a control thing. You're letting her get away with treating you like a doormat. I hate using that word, but it's true. I've been in your shoes many times before and I've seen some crazy stuff go down with these types of people. 

They are extremely self absorbed and don't have a lot of empathy towards others. She may or may not know that she's like this. 

How often do you call her out on the things she does to you? Like when she blameshifts saying that you don't talk to her when SHE'S the one ignoring you....what do you say?

The best thing sometimes is to call these people out on their head games and say that it doesn't work on you and it better stop now. But first you have to be able to recognize in the moment what your wife is trying to do when she says ignorant things to you. You have to realize when she's twisting things so you can have the upper edge and stop her in her tracks.


----------



## weightlifter

Something else. Working on it. The car thing. I called her on it.

Wom. Point understood. Must work on exorcizing those traits more. Ive started. asi said a year ago with the car thing i woulda rolled on it. not this time. there have been others. Like when i squashed the EA. Got it.

One thing is i gotta get it when it happens otherwise the story changes.

Not sure how much i care. I want to. I really do. But after so long. Meh. im pretty sure its only for the kids and given a life expectancy of another 35 years... Thus i have alot of thinking to do. Yea part is fear of the unknown and being alone.

Its funny. I realize that there is one thing that keeps me from having an affair. Integrity=Honor and boundaries. It gives me clarity how easy it is for normal people to have them. I wont simply because i wont dishonor those vows i made a decade ago.

Guess its bad when your father ( and probably my mom too. cant talk to her as she is incapabe of keeping confidence). wants you to separate/divorce. That was a whoa! moment.

And venting here helps. Plus it is easier to see from outside than inside. So yea points taken.

Kind of feel like a train with two locomotives and only one is pulling.

So NOONE else has a differing opinion that she is telling me to go get the sex elsewhere? (except the one person) no still not gonna do it.

Edit wom. Are you wom or dd? A few posts looked like they werevworded by dd.


----------



## HangingVine

I agree with one poster who suggested she could have been hinting that she cant be sure you haven't or wont have an affair but if you did she couldn't do anything about it. Because she would never know about it.Maybe its in relation to the fact you had the safety net /right of access to her computer/personal emails?You also seem to have her where abouts pretty much accounted for 24/7.

She has to blindly trust you .You get to know for sure.Or as close to 100% as possible if she is cheating on you .


----------



## Blondilocks

It could be as simple as she is still angry over the perceived invasion of her privacy - "you snooped it's none of your business".

Add in that "she sucks at computers" and she is pointedly rubbing it in that if YOU were to have an affair SHE wouldn't know because: a. she is above snooping & invading YOUR privacy and b. even if she weren't above it, she wouldn't know how.

She's embarrassed she was caught and it's all your fault for snooping.

Another take, anyway.


----------



## somethingelse

Blondilocks said:


> It could be as simple as she is still angry over the perceived invasion of her privacy - "you snooped it's none of your business".
> 
> Add in that "she sucks at computers" and she is pointedly rubbing it in that if YOU were to have an affair SHE wouldn't know because: a. she is above snooping & invading YOUR privacy and b. even if she weren't above it, she wouldn't know how.
> 
> She's embarrassed she was caught and it's all your fault for snooping.
> 
> Another take, anyway.


Yeah. I agree with this. She's just making a stab at you, saying that she wouldn't be snooping on your hidden affair if you had one. 

HOWEVER...that tells you that....she only stopped the affair because she got caught. Not because she wanted to stop or felt bad for having the affair. So this is something you have to think about.. and ask yourself if you are willing to go through another spell of her cheating. 

Because by the way she is treating you, and her sense of entitlement..she will most likely stray again. She is not remorseful, she has no respect for you and it sounds like she just wants to do what she wants without complications.


----------



## weightlifter

Blondilocks said:


> It could be as simple as she is still angry over the perceived invasion of her privacy - "you snooped it's none of your business".
> 
> Add in that "she sucks at computers" and she is pointedly rubbing it in that if YOU were to have an affair SHE wouldn't know because: a. she is above snooping & invading YOUR privacy and b. even if she weren't above it, she wouldn't know how.
> 
> She's embarrassed she was caught and it's all your fault for snooping.
> 
> Another take, anyway.


BL. Not sure i have ever seen a more utterly brilliant first post from a new poster.

I found the email by accident. She left her email up and it was the top email on the top window. I thought this crap only happened to other people. Yea naive me. At that point, shrug, blow my trust, you get me in 007 mode and given im very technical natively, you better be an actual IT person to beat me. Once you blow my trust i feel zero remorse looking into things.

Shes above it? Honestly dont know the answer. I rather think its mostly b. she could look at my email all she wants. Nothing is there and my sent box is 99 percent complete for the last five years. I only delete sents when they are large and take up alot of my storage limit.

To be clear the crappy treatment well precedes the discovery.


----------



## firefly789

Your wife hasn't really shown remorse for her EA just frustration at getting caught. Maybe she's only against D until she has someone lined up to go to and now that's not going to happen with your vigilance. If you had your own affair she might think you'd stop monitoring her.


----------



## Thor

weightlifter said:


> I just cant think of ANY other context of future tense
> 
> "IF you were to have an affair I would never know"


It could be without tense. Past, present, future. She is just saying she would not know. But you know her and how she speaks, so go with your gut feeling. And ask her directly, because mind reading usually fails.

As a guy I would like to chime in. I know the feeling of love being killed. We have bumped along for many years, with the last 2 being pretty tough. But she seems back in the marriage and trying. But a month ago she crossed two major boundaries and something died in me when I found out.

Interestingly what it comes down to is the context of what she did in relation to the previous transgressions. That is, the particular deed was no worse than anything in the past, it is just she did it _again_.

WRT the dynamics in your relationship, it sounds like a classic Pursuer - Distancer. You pursue, she runs away. You treat her badly, she comes closer. My wife responds to this, with her going out of her way to do nice things when I am cool and distant. It sucks because I am not like that, and I don't want to be like that to someone I care about. It does work though, probably because of a need for her to feel security.

If you pursue, your wife might feel secure that you won't D her. She is more comfortable at a distance so she will retreat from your advances. But when you pull back or show some negative emotions, she feels her security threatened and she resorts to whatever will pull you back in.

I wonder if she has any history of childhood abuse or a parent with a personality disorder. Not that it changes anything other than knowing better what you are facing long term.


----------



## Blondilocks

"BL. Not sure i have ever seen a more utterly brilliant first post from a new poster." Aw, shucks, color me red.

Please think about what you want to do with your marriage. The only way to determine that is to have a talk with the missus. Sounds like something went awry six(?) years ago. Find out what's eating at her. At this point, you're not even friends with benefits - more like occasional friends with occasional benefits. Good luck.


----------



## weightlifter

Her childhood sucked. Honestly i thank God that i got the parents i did. My parents had some alcoholism problems but my parents corrected themselves.

Hers.
Mom was in konigsburg germany in 1944 and ran from the red army.
Dad is an eddie munster look alike with hygeine problems. 
Dad molested a much older sister she thinks but not her other older sister. Being younger saved my wife it appears. 
Her parents D at age 12.
Her mom made her work around the house prolly 30 hours a week.
Mom mellowed in old age but she was not fun to be the daughter of.

She has always done these inexplicabe moods. It ramped up 6 years ago then really really ramped up last year and added the not showering and evil /odd statements to me. The i love you maybe or no you dont type stuff started 3? Years ago.

As for having an A without her being able to find out. Prolly could. I also prolly could steal from my employer and never get caught.

I have done neither. Its an honor thing. Guess my parents did ok with me.

I just have to remember to ambush her next time she says one of these things.


----------



## deejov

Almost all of your posts mention your ability to have an affair.

If you are looking for validation to go do that, and convincing us that she would never find out, you might get it. Eventually.

Maybe she did find out already.

You seem quite angry. Especially about the car. Good thing you have moved on and are working on yourself. Just worrying about things you can control. 


3 years. I feel for you. In the past 6 months, has TAM helped you at all? What have you tried? Are you any closer to letting go of the past and working on your future?


Why are still with her? Thinking it's better to stay and have an affair?


----------



## wife1981

It seems to me like she can be having an affair. But, that is just my opinion. She really should be grateful she has a husband that is trying this hard. I don't understand why else she would be so distant. You have to do what makes you happy, and life is to short for what you are going through.


----------



## weightlifter

deejov said:


> Almost all of your posts mention your ability to have an affair.
> disagree. They mention her statement.
> If you are looking for validation to go do that, and convincing us that she would never find out, you might get it. Eventually.
> can/=would
> Maybe she did find out already.
> Huh?
> You seem quite angry. Especially about the car. Good thing you have moved on and are working on yourself. Just worrying about things you can control.
> sarcasm aside I did realize today reading another post on general. I have far more anger than I realized before I read that thread. It concerns the lack of sex and her deliberately making it difficult. The no shower thing. jeez
> The car thing is more about her blameshifting and how a year ago I woulda just rolled over on it. So yea, some changes HAVE happened
> 
> 3 years. I feel for you. In the past 6 months, has TAM helped you at all? What have you tried? Are you any closer to letting go of the past and working on your future?
> 3 years 6 years hell we have people with decades. Yea Im working on it. I have further to go than I thought.
> 
> Why are still with her? Thinking it's better to stay and have an affair?


Inertia and the kids I think. Fear of the unknown? Still not gonna have an affair. This position has not changed from post 1. It occurred to me TODAY. Dumbazz. (me) you are starved for intimate affection. CFM eyes... been a long time.


----------



## deejov

OP,
IMO, what you write about your wife is quite appalling. Good grief. 
Yeah, I can understand the anger. 

What do you want to do about it? It did seem that you are at the point of just wanting to chuck it and have an affair. (I'm not one to pass judgements on people, I'll just quietly let others do as they want. I live my life according to my own judgements, that's all.)

Yes, anyone would be starved for intimate affection. I'm in a dead marriage myself, trying my best to stay happy until things are settled. 

No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. But here's the point I'm trying to make:
-You have a laundry list of dates, actions, mistakes she has made
But you have CHOSEN to stay with her. 

If you choose to stay, don't you have a responsiblity to resolve the issues? I think one does. 

It's not fair that she treats you like crap, and you have not resolved the EA, etc.

But why does that translate into YOU being miserable, angry, and unable to get on with your life? Why did you give up control of your life, your happiness, and your future to a woman who clearly does not want to be with you?

She wins. Unless you take control of your own life. Which is all you can really do. Put all that energy into yourself. Invest in yourself. Aren't you worth it? Or is this just a way of punishing her by staying because you know she wants you gone?


----------



## chazmataz3

just some random observations; women in in their late 30s often go through emotional life changes.how old are your kids and did their arrival have any effect on your wife?you say she COULD look at your emails but she may not because she knows your genious on a computer and wouldn't be smart enough to catch you hence the I WOULDN"T KNOW IF YOU"RE HAVING AN AFFAIR.Not taking showers to discourage sex?disinterest in you and marriage (and kids??)not many of her own friends? could it be depression or early onset of mid-life crisis? also,childhood PTSD?And we shut down our emotions toward someone who hurts us over and over hense the feel love towards kids but not the wife??believer in JESUS CHRIST so so church conseling is NEVER a bad thing. thoughts AND prayers are with you my brother.


----------



## azteca1986

weightlifter said:


> CFM eyes... been a long time.


If you've seen them before, you can see them again. 

So far the possible reasons for your wife's behaviour is (sorry if I've missed any)

1. She's emotionally checked out
2. She's still in the affair
3. She's resentful you quashed the EA

As I understand it you moved very quickly to kill the EA before it could really gather steam so I'm thinking (3) is unlikely. I trust your monitoring skills so (2) is rejected too. (1) Could be. Proceed with 180.

*4. She's lost respect for you* 

The way I see it in order to embark on her EA she must have detached from you somewhat. She disrespected you and the marriage. And now, though the EA is over, she hasn't got back to respecting you again.

To me your posts are a whole series of fitness tests


weightlifter said:


> Something else. Working on it. The car thing. *I called her on it.
> 
> Wom. Point understood. * Must work on exorcizing those traits more. Ive started. asi said a year ago with the car thing i woulda rolled on it. not this time. there have been others. Like when i squashed the EA. Got it.
> 
> *One thing is i gotta get it when it happens* otherwise the story changes.


You're dead right. These fitness tests have to either be passed or avoided in real time. If she's being unreasonable tell her she is, but in a mild tone. Half the time her tests won't even be important. You tell her "I think that's unreasonable" and the matter dies there. Deal with each and every one that comes your way. Most will be small. This one was BIG:


> ***SHE FORGOT OUR ANNIVERSARY!*** WHAT WOMAN FORGETS HER ANNIVERSARY? (Im not that dumb. I took her out and everything)


As an earlier poster said quite rightly, she didn't forget. Your wife served you Sh!t sandwich. If you didn't call her on it... well. It's in the past. Don't worry about it. There will be another one along shortly 

This guy explains them much better than I:


BigBadWolf said:


> It is beneficial to many good men at this forum for you to share, to see these things in action, so they too can understand it is not something make believe, but very real.
> 
> Fitness test, when a woman is interested in a man, they will come.
> 
> All good men reading this, understand this, do not see these test as anything other then what they are, the opportunity to display your mettle.
> 
> So when they come, display your mettle with all your might, and do so with boldness, confidence, and learn to enjoy them.
> 
> Fitness tests, they are merely opportunities, so see them as the opportunities they are!


These tests come thick and fast when your wife loses respect for you (I say from experience). Don't fear them. Embrace them as they're each an opportunity your wife gives you to regain her respect. And the turnaround will happen fast.

<<<<<< INTERLUDE >>>>>>
As long as I've known her my wife has interrupted me. After a decade of marriage and being interrupted several hundred times I would lose my temper with an irritated "STFU". Not cool. General mayhem would ensue. After reading a bit I tried something new.

Normal conversation... 
{Wife interrupts me} 
Me: [Serious tone] Stop talking when I'm talking
Conversation continues...
{Wife interrupts me} 
Me: [flat tone] Stop talking when I'm talking
Conversation continues...
{Wife interrupts me} 
Me: [Sounding a bit bored] Stop talking when I'm talking
WIfe: [Meekly]Sorry.

UFB. This is a woman who would react like a maternally enraged grizzly if I used the F word. When I stopped that cycle I got compliance on treating me with respect in a twenty minute conversation. 

<<<<<< END OF INTERLUDE >>>>>>

So back to you, weightlifter, and that strange statement your wife made:

*"IF you were to have an affair I would never know"
*
Honestly, this is too inscrutable for me to de-code. But it seems like a 'test' of some sort. It seems like a - Where do you stand on a revenge affair? Are you going to pay me back? - situation. If you asked her "What do you mean by that?", she replied "Nothing" and you said "Then don't say it" you would have still passed the test. It's fishing for some kind of emotional response. I don't think there's a 'correct answer', you just have to recognise it for what it is.



BigBadWolf said:


> Sh!t test = dominance test.
> 
> Sh!t tests, they are not intellectual or logical, a woman often doesn't realize it when asked outright what she is even doing.
> 
> It is a test of feeling, of emotion.
> 
> A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.
> 
> A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> A man certainly will judge a woman, and a woman judge a man.
> 
> Judging, is logical, intellectual.
> 
> Fitness tests, they are emotional, sexual, primal.


If she wasn't testing you _that_ would mean she's checked out. She's seeing you nice guying her, where she probably doesn't feel she deserves it. It's not attractive. When you pass a few tests, the respect will return. And then you'll see those CFM eyes you've been missing.

I sincerely hope things work out for you both.


----------



## weightlifter

azteca1986 said:


> If you've seen them before, you can see them again.
> 
> So far the possible reasons for your wife's behaviour is (sorry if I've missed any)
> 
> 1. She's emotionally checked out
> 2. She's still in the affair
> 3. She's resentful you quashed the EA
> 
> As I understand it you moved very quickly to kill the EA before it could really gather steam so I'm thinking (3) is unlikely. I trust your monitoring skills so (2) is rejected too. (1) Could be. Proceed with 180.
> 
> *4. She's lost respect for you*
> 
> The way I see it in order to embark on her EA she must have detached from you somewhat. She disrespected you and the marriage. And now, though the EA is over, she hasn't got back to respecting you again.
> 
> To me your posts are a whole series of fitness tests
> You're dead right. These fitness tests have to either be passed or avoided in real time. If she's being unreasonable tell her she is, but in a mild tone. Half the time her tests won't even be important. You tell her "I think that's unreasonable" and the matter dies there. Deal with each and every one that comes your way. Most will be small. This one was BIG:
> As an earlier poster said quite rightly, she didn't forget. Your wife served you Sh!t sandwich. If you didn't call her on it... well. It's in the past. Don't worry about it. There will be another one along shortly
> 
> This guy explains them much better than I:
> These tests come thick and fast when your wife loses respect for you (I say from experience). Don't fear them. Embrace them as they're each an opportunity your wife gives you to regain her respect. And the turnaround will happen fast.
> 
> <<<<<< INTERLUDE >>>>>>
> As long as I've known her my wife has interrupted me. After a decade of marriage and being interrupted several hundred times I would lose my temper with an irritated "STFU". Not cool. General mayhem would ensue. After reading a bit I tried something new.
> 
> Normal conversation...
> {Wife interrupts me}
> Me: [Serious tone] Stop talking when I'm talking
> Conversation continues...
> {Wife interrupts me}
> Me: [flat tone] Stop talking when I'm talking
> Conversation continues...
> {Wife interrupts me}
> Me: [Sounding a bit bored] Stop talking when I'm talking
> WIfe: [Meekly]Sorry.
> 
> UFB. This is a woman who would react like a maternally enraged grizzly if I used the F word. When I stopped that cycle I got compliance on treating me with respect in a twenty minute conversation.
> 
> <<<<<< END OF INTERLUDE >>>>>>
> 
> So back to you, weightlifter, and that strange statement your wife made:
> 
> *"IF you were to have an affair I would never know"
> *
> Honestly, this is too inscrutable for me to de-code. But it seems like a 'test' of some sort. It seems like a - Where do you stand on a revenge affair? Are you going to pay me back? - situation. If you asked her "What do you mean by that?", she replied "Nothing" and you said "Then don't say it" you would have still passed the test. It's fishing for some kind of emotional response. I don't think there's a 'correct answer', you just have to recognise it for what it is.
> 
> If she wasn't testing you _that_ would mean she's checked out. She's seeing you nice guying her, where she probably doesn't feel she deserves it. It's not attractive. When you pass a few tests, the respect will return. And then you'll see those CFM eyes you've been missing.
> 
> I sincerely hope things work out for you both.


Unholy mutherfvcker. My whole life has been one long sh!t test. Just effing shoot me now. How the fvck did i not see it? What kind of dumbazz am i? I know what a sh!t test is. How the fvck did i not see the whole picture?

I STILL remember the first one i passed, tho since i didnt do it calmly maybe i didnt. We werent even married. I took her to maine. Night 1 debating dinner it was an A or B choice. I picked A of course B is the right answer. I get 2 hours of b!tchiness. Go me. Next day same question comes up. AHA i think. I will pick B and life will be good. NOPE. She changed the answer to A. Sniveling during a 50 dollar seaside meal. 

So now we are driving back on US1 going 65 miles an hour. We were right by the Bath shipyards. Shes still sniveling in her seat when i just lost it. Im sitting there thinking. Im showing her a good time AND SHE B!TCHING AT ME FOR NO GOOD REASON!?!

I still VIVIDLY remember my brake pedal (ABS) pulsing on my foot as i slammed on the brakes all the way to stopped on one of the lanes on US1. I turned to her raging. "CUT IT THE FVCK OUT!!, IF B WAS THE ANSWER YESTERDAY. THE ANSWER BETTER MOTHEREFFING BETTER BE B TODAY!!!!!!"

It worked tho. She niced up inside of a minute and apologized. Of course during our dating phase these were uncommon.

I pass maybe 40% of the sh!t tests. Still they come and they come. I passed the car one and now she is nice after the day and a half snit.

On the question about she would never know. Perhaps helplessness? She is incredibly insecure. She sometimes gets mad when i answer some obscure question my son comes up with." How do you know that?" i have no idea where i learned everything so i say " beats me" she then looks it up to try to disprove, usually tho not always to no avail. Any more mostly i just tell my son i dont know.

Wow this thread has given light to stuff that i didnt even ask. 

Then again i noticed she is hiding something starting today. I think its money. She deliberately closed the door when getting money my mom gave her forva specific purpose. she seemed mad i wanted to use it for thatbexact purpose. None is missing so prolly from her mom. Was acting wierd. Probably not electronic. She aint that dumb. Oddly at this point, meh. 

I may be getting a job offer dream job dream location in the next month. 40 percent chance. I think she wants to stay here. More drama coming. She does not have a choice if shevwants tomstay married.

I wish i cared. I WANT TO CARE. I SHOULD care for the kids sake.

I DONT. I feel dead inside to her. Not hate, disdain, just apathy.

Oh well. Work on myself. Go full steam for that job! I am excited to even be considered for it. Its an expansion. A chance to bring a company business it has never had. A chance to build stuff. What i love. I walk into an empty building. I walk out of a fully functioning facility.


----------



## azteca1986

weightlifter said:


> I wish i cared. *I WANT TO CARE. I SHOULD care for the kids sake.*
> 
> I DONT. I feel dead inside to her. Not hate, disdain, just apathy.


weightlifter, my brother, these are the important bits. I'm a little younger than you. Been married a fraction longer. I've been exactly where you are (different circumstances). Exactly.

It's not _really_ apathy. I frankly don't believe you. Re-read your first post. The fire is still there from both of you. It's just smouldering.

You're tired of this sh!t. I understand.

But... *drum roll and massive anti-climax* it's 02:02 here in London. I'm an eternal optimist and your situation is eminently recoverable. Hang in there mate.


----------



## weightlifter

I hope you are right and i am wrong. My strength is discovery wife busting threads. 

Just like those. I hope im wrong. I think im right.


----------



## azteca1986

weightlifter said:


> I hope you are right and i am wrong. My strength is discovery wife busting threads.
> 
> Just like those. I hope im wrong. I think im right.


You've selflessly given your time and your expertise to help others. You've put yourself forward to listen to things no man would want to hear, let alone a BS. You've shown great compassion. You're a good man. 

*But don't fool yourself for a minute that this hasn't taken it's toll on you. *

There are positives and anomalies in your posts, let me bring them to your attention. I'll try and have something for you by the time you get up tomorrow morning. Nothing earth shattering, but there's something there we can work with

02:41 Time for bed


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## alte Dame

This has all been discussed as if your wife is somehow truly functional. She doesn't sound like it to me, though. The business about not showering is an indicator of mental health issues. She sounds contemptuous of you, but she could really be just completely without affect. These could present the same way. Her different moods could be hormonally-induced.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that the answer that 'she's just not that into you' sounds correct, but that is the effect, not the cause & the cause might not be a standard one.

There's just too much dysfunction in her behavior to make her a garden-variety cheater or WAW, in my opinion.


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## EleGirl

weightlifter said:


> Im sure there IS other stuff. She is mad at me 25-30% of the time. Yes really. I dont think I am 25-30% azzhole deserving this.


You have been married to her for 10 years and yet you do not know why she’s upset with you? How can that be?


weightlifter said:


> I am NOT perfect. I can be intense when working on something. I sometimes forget to talk a little more simply and de-engineer speak when talking to her. (MY IQ is 140. Ill estimate hers at 110. I know she says I sometimes make her feel dumb. I TRY not to.


What does your wife do for a living? How much education does she have?

This paragraph is very telling. It sounds like you get into your own little world and forget about everything. Then when you come out of that you have trouble communicating with her. Your IQ being higher than hers is not the reason for this. What I get is that you feel superior to her. It comes out when you interact with her and she’s tired of her husband acting like this towards her.

I’m not trying to be mean. You came here for input and advice. This is what I see when you talk about your wife. It’s not just in the first post on this thread. This shows up in the way you speak about her.


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## weightlifter

EleGirl said:


> This paragraph is very telling. It sounds like you get into your own little world and forget about everything. Then when you come out of that you have trouble communicating with her. Your IQ being higher than hers is not the reason for this. What I get is that you feel superior to her. It comes out when you interact with her and she’s tired of her husband acting like this towards her.
> 
> I’m not trying to be mean. You came her for input and advice. This is what I see when you talk about your wife. It’s not just in the first post on this thread. This shows up in the way you speak about her.


I will think on that. LOL I am way the hell harder to offend than that. Would I hang around CWI if I was? All input appreciated. even if it makes me look like 30% azzhole.

To be clear. I make zero claims of being perfect, I in fact know I tend to focus hard on a tough project when i get one. 

Hey would I have come to THIS forum, if I couldnt take the heat? Look at it this way. I agree with above posters that another answer for her "not know" statement is her feeling powerless in regards to monitoring abilities. That being said. I have no remorse in looking into her emails. NONE. SHE was the one who stepped out.

BTW lost 25 posts. What major thread just got deleted?


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## Unique Username

Sometimes spouses don't want to have sex with someone whom they no longer respect...Are you Professing, Providing and Protecting but not a controlling dictator? What has changed in your
behavior as a Husband or Father or Provider?

In my experience, the ones who are eager to point fingers of infidelity, controlling (you said you can account for her wherabouts at all times could only have a Pa IN CHURCH all caps) their mates, manipulating situations and feelings....they are the ones who are having the affairs.
Can't read minds either, so best to sit down and find out her version of things and not YOUR idea of what you THINK she thinks is wrong etc.

You caught her in an EA, so it is obvious she needs something you aren't giving her emotionally. You say you love her and she says maybe, obviously she is feeling unloved ( by her definition of love) or uncertain about your love for her. 


Sometimes women in their mid 40s are going through hormonal changes which are very real and affect libido...

It could also be a combination of all those things and more


----------



## PieceOfSky

Weightlifter,

Just read your first post in this thread. Will read the rest when I can. Just wanted to say I'm sorry you are dealing with all that. Some of it sounds familiar to me. Whatever happens, I hope you get the happiness you deserve.


----------



## Shaggy

WL,

This is TAM so obviously your wife has BPD


----------



## 6301

Weightlifter.

First thing I would like to say is you gotta draw the line real soon brother. When she would go five days without a shower and then made an attempt to climb into bed, I would have let her know right then and there to get the hell out of this bed and don't come back until your clean, and I would have either handed her a wash cloth, towel, and soap or her pillow and a blanket and let her sleep someplace else. Either that or when your outside, turn the hose on and grab a bucket of soapy water and give her a G.I. shower. For God sake man, that is inexcusable. 

The next thing to tell her is that maybe she's against divorce but you aren't and that she either stars acting like an adult and like a wife or she'll find her un kept ass out in the street. What is it that why you want to keep her around? She shows no love, respect, compassion and to make matters worse, SHE STINKS!! There is nothing worse than someone who smells like BO and ass! 

You have a choice here. Either suffer for the rest of your life with her or wipe the slate clean and you and your kids have a decent life. If your telling me you staying for the kids, believe me, your kids will be fine just as long as they know you love them and your there for them you could do both and still be not under the same roof. Not only is this relationship poison, but it's un sanitary.


----------



## weightlifter

Shaggy said:


> WL,
> 
> This is TAM so obviously your wife has BPD


LOL. Scary that I even understand the joke.

FWIW. March blowout with wife ended that 5 days without shower thing. Did it at the same time as killing the EA. Typ is every other day now. Dunno how she takes that even but its drastically better. I took two today tho one was cause I mowed the lawn in 90 degrees and 99% humdidity. I just feel like.... blech if I dont do it every day. 

LOL my life = improvement when I still dont get laid but the wife smells better.:rofl:

FWIW job opportunity alluded to before... HR lady was actually working yesterday. So this morning... I get email that tells me ubermensch want an interview. Skipping #2 phone interview untermensch interview and straight to Directors and VPs. Even tho there are no direct reports, with million+ dollar estimates and budgets involved. Its considered manager level so I report to directors and VPs. Concentrating on making me better and this is EFFING BETTER! Really need to concentrate on this opportunity as they dont come by every day like this one. Still tough to win this one but Ill put odds now at 45%. Pass this one to final in person interview.

As for the wife. its always one excuse or another for no sex of late. Im horny as sh!t but I cant eff up this opportunity. Gotta have priorities. This makes ME better. FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Location = place where an engineers salary is actually still middle class. Imagine that. Funny I have a gut feeling for months now... hope I dont look like a dumbazz as my gut is often correct.


----------



## Woodchuck

weightlifter said:


> Im near the end of my rope.
> Background
> 
> Mid 40s both of us. 10 years married. 2 school age kids.
> We are not in a good place right now.
> Tried setting up dates. First one worked. After that she got less and less enthusiastic. They were not even sex dates but take her out and pay attention to her dates. Last one I set up. When I said asked her to go out with me she looked like I asked her to eat a poop sandwich.
> I ask for sex most days and get it about 2x a month. I get that same poop sandwich look. Note I never beg. I know that is unattractive.
> 
> She had light email EA with ex. I squashed it hard and got it early. Told her to pick him or me.
> She went nuke b!tch at me in front of my parents. My father wants me to move in with them in another state and get wife and kids an apt nearby!
> She did it in front of coworkers once a couple years ago. Two coworkers came up separately told me she was mean to me and offered me temp housing. (I am extremely loyal to friends and I have GREAT friends)
> 
> ***SHE FORGOT OUR ANNIVERSARY!*** WHAT WOMAN FORGETS HER ANNIVERSARY? (Im not that dumb. I took her out and everything)
> 
> We had a near sexless 10 months June 2012 Thru Mar 2013 + last month. 1-2x a month. She would go up to 5 days (typically 4 days) between showers just to discourage me from asking for sex because she knows I am very clean myself and shower EVERY night.
> 
> Nov to Mar I lost 30 lbs and weigh 7 pounds less than when we met. I think I look damn good for a mid 40s guy. Women customers flirt a good amount with me. I NEVER respond. YEa I like the ego boost I admit, but I made vows.
> Every night I would go to bed with an I-Love-You and get back "yea right" or "maybe" etc
> She used to initiate 2x a month. It has been 2x in 12 months. She half initiated maybe 2x more.
> Sex was 85% duty sex. April was decent after my vas was delcared clear. We had 2 huge blowouts in March and I openly asked her if she wanted to still be my wife. She said yes, but I think she is lying and just doesnt want to be 2x divorced.
> She says she is into sex with me. Maybe 6x in the past year that was true. The rest was spew and get off me.
> I can account for 99.5% of her time. Any PA would have to be IN CHURCH literally so I rather doubt it. She is getting more and more conservative in bed.
> 
> She said in late Feb that the only reason we are not divorced is she does not believe in divorce (even tho she D her first husband. VERY young marriage WAY back early 90s) Then she denied she said it.
> She is a classic blame shifter. She backed our cars into each other doing 2K damage. She blamed me for parking them wrong. (AYFKM)
> We kiss. She will do it maybe 10 seconds then she turns her head.
> 
> Incident Mar 18 2013. 12:40AM 2.5 weeks after her EA I found. I hug her good night. I say I love you. She said, "maybe". Something in me died at that moment. It was so strong I FELT IT AND LOOKED AT MY WATCH. PART OF ME CHANGED AND I THINK SHE LITERALLY stuck the final knife in my love for her and it flatlined the first time. I think it came back a few times but she knifed those pretty good. Now...
> I am trying to get feelings back but she wants a hug on occasion and I feel no more than I would hugging a statue. I want it back but after all the hit after hit after hit after hit FOR about 6 years. It just wont seem to come back. I want very much to say I love you. But those words are sacred to me and I just cant. They roll easy off my tongue to my kids I have zero problem saying it to them.
> 
> I want the love back but all I feel is. Nothing. Literally.
> I am NOT perfect. I can be intense when working on something. I sometimes forget to talk a little more simply and de-engineer speak when talking to her. (MY IQ is 140. Ill estimate hers at 110. I know she says I sometimes make her feel dumb. I TRY not to. Im sure there IS other stuff. She is mad at me 25-30% of the time. Yes really. I dont think I am 25-30% azzhole deserving this.
> 
> Anyway the scary thing she said to me was this:
> "IF you were to have an affair I would never know" Note the future tense. Am I imagining things or is she telling me to go out and find a mistress and leave her alone on sex? Note this WILL NOT happen but it makes me think this ship is far more gone than I imagine.
> 
> For the record.
> I have not EVER had an affair
> I have not EVER had an EA
> I have not EVER even lip kissed another woman since exclusivity was agreed on.


WOW......I remember the instant I fell out of love with my wife.........

We were trying to rekindle our relationship, We had done The 5 Love Languages, and I had nursed her through some very minor surgery....

I had decided to give her my all, and did the nursing thing with an open heart, and with love...

Some time during that week, I fell in love with my wife!!!!!!!

I was in giddy, stupid, school boy love with my wife of 46 years, and I was the happiest guy in the world.....When she walked in the room I lit up, I doted on her...I was IN LOVE........

Over the next couple of weeks, she started picking fights over little things.....The first time I was heartbroken....I literally cried like a baby (I am not the crying type)....

She blew it off...

A week or so later ditto.....

I kept wondering, how I could love her so much, and do everything I could to please her, and she would start these stupid fights....Just throw away all those built up good feelings.......

I could feel it chipping away at that IN LOVE feeling.....

On the last day, I had fixed breakfast for me and my dad.....He was slow finishing, so I sat down at my laptop and went on line....The wife got up around 9:00, and walked into the kitchen....She had a fit because I had not yet cleared 2 coffee cups and a cereal bowl from the table.....I FELL OUT OF LOVE at that instant....And I told her so....

That was a few months ago....

Just yesterday, in a p!ssy mood, she mentioned how stupid iI was to fall out of love over 2 cups and a cereal bowl..........

She pretends she JUST DOSN'T GET IT......

OUT OF LOVE IN ARKANSAW

THE WOODCHUCK


----------



## Unique Username

Good luck with the interviews.


----------



## Unique Username

Weightlifter,

I would get your wife to a good obgyn...have her hormone levels checked...I have a feeling if you get this part worked out her libido might improve. She isn't feeling womanly or sexy hence the disregard for bathing (or I may be getting that confused with someone else sorry) also might include a bit of depression - if she isn't in therapy it would be a good idea...a place where she can invesitgate why she is so unhapppy with herself, you, your life etc.

You mentioned email EA I think, possible to read what she disclosed to the OM to glean what she is at least "saying" is wrong...or what kind of support/bulloney/ego stroking etc she was getting from the OM. Who cares about him...it's the info that might help you figure it out.



In the meantime I would stop asking or initiating sex with her....it is a sore subject. Men and women view sex and intimacy differently. You can take care of yourself until you figure out the underlying issues and take efforts to help resolve them.
Just remember in sickness and in health...most people are looking for unconditional love..each has their own unique view of what that means to them..
ANd if you intend to married until Death do you Part...when you get old there will be difficulties and problems and times when you physically are unable to perform etc...life, you can be assured, will always throw you a curve ball.......anyway my point is that if there is some way to figure out and work out the real issues you have with communication and intimacy NOW that's gonna make a much better relationship when you are both old and gray with grandkids and great grandkids. Companionship with someone you can be assured has your back and loves you unconditionally...that's what I think everyone strives for.
Hard to have a healthy sexual relationship when all these other things are unresolved. 
For men, often sex is simply physical release...women are wired differently.
Certainly don't go out and have an affair...that's stupid. 


I remember this learning moment in College, I had been really good friends with a really great local band. I mean friends as in I don't date any of them we are platonic friends (all lived in the same dorm met first week of classes made friends). So anyway, I noticed the groupie girls and how they interacted and the boys in the band reacted to them. Even when the guys would make it clear that they weren't interested in a relationship (as I've noticed grown men are saying they are doing in here and online dating sites) but it is blaringly clear (to me the outside looking in observer) that the females are usually lying and so are the men. Mostly, the women are certainly looking for relationships and the men are lying to themselves that the women who agree to their trysts aren't. 
Women in dating often use sex as a tool to get the unconditional love they crave...that country song lookin for love in all the wrong places, lookin for love in too many faces....
Then of course that backfires cause you guys decide that she was "good in the sack" but not a keeper.


----------



## Thor

Weightlifter, I agree your wife has some psych issues at play. Doesn't really change your situation to know it, other than maybe give you some reassurance you aren't the crazy one.

You might like the book "Uncoupling", which explains the process and dynamics of breaking up long term relationships. I was quite surprised to learn my wife had been initiating a breakup for about 5 years or so, when I had been thinking it was the opposite. The book is not a how-to stay together or how-to break up. Still it may be interesting to your engineer mind.

A book I am reading now is "Women's Infidelity". I think it dovetails nicely with MMSL, NMMNG, Uncoupling, and the red pill concepts. Though it is just a subset of women, not all women. Anyhow if you can find the pdf online it may interest you.

pm sent also.


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## Shaggy

Good luck on the job

Two things folks at that level want in a staff member

1. You'll always listen to their questions , concerns, and take them into account when doing your job

2. You'll bring them solutions not problems (after having fully addressed their issues from step 1)

They have to trust that not only will you do the job without being supervised, but that you'll do it that way they want it done without any side issues that will later cause grief.


----------



## weightlifter

Shaggy said:


> Good luck on the job
> 
> Two things folks at that level want in a staff member
> 
> 1. You'll always listen to their questions , concerns, and take them into account when doing your job
> 
> 2. You'll bring them solutions not problems (after having fully addressed their issues from step 1)
> 
> They have to trust that not only will you do the job without being supervised, but that you'll do it that way they want it done without any side issues that will later cause grief.


Thanks for the info. The business area is new to them not me. I know more than they do.

Im always willing to make decisions and send executive level emails. Like "We need to spend 75 K here and this is the reason." Done it my whole life.


----------



## Blonde

LOL the car thing...

doublewide L shape driveway with garage at the bottom of the long line. Told H a bazillion times not to park on the long line because I don't look back there and I have bumped two of our cars before (no damage)

20 yod parked the Tahoe on the long part.

18 yod backed into it full steam and crushed the door

Probably 2K damage. Didn't put it through for insurance though as the 18yo already had 2 accidents this year and premiums are too outrageous as it is.

I hope you didn't get mad at your wife and throw a blaming shaming fit over the car. It's not worth it.

The 18yod got really defensive with my H. I kinda agreed with her that parking on the long L is a really really bad idea... asking for trouble but the 20yod has been away at college and hadn't heard the warnings...


----------



## weightlifter

My anger on the car thing on the 10 scale.

Damage. 4
Blaming me for "parking wrong" 9
It takes me an hour or two to reduce 4 anger to merely annoyed.

Mostly concentrating on acing the interviews. Been working on this for 6 mos.


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## firefly789

WL, I can tell you are an engineer because you are very analytical. Your posts are sprinkled with numbers. You sound like you are very effective at work. Here's the thing, and I could be way off, but you did want womens opinions. It doesn't sound like you and your wife talk much. I realize your wife may be just shutting you out, and on top of it won't go to counseling, so there may just be a wall there right now and nothing is going to get through.

But, after being rejected so many times when approaching her for sex have you ever just looked at her and said, "Honey, I know we've hit a rough patch here and things aren't as they use to be. I just want to know where you're at, what you're feeling because I want to get through this with you." And then listen without saying much, just add little feeder/clarifying questions.

Or, when sitting down bring up that "Things feel tense between us to me. How are you feeling about us?" Listen and do the parroting thing "So you feel blah blah blah." Just listen and try to understand and clarify and get her talking about what is going on with her. You could even outright ask her, "Honey, you made a comment the other day that worried me. What did you mean because I've thought on it and I just don't know where you're coming from." 

Listen/parrot/try to understand. Don't try to fix it on the spot. Analytical people find problems and fix them. That doesn't always work with women and relationships because they want to know that they're understood. They come at things in a more round about way through talking. Then the ideal is to come to a consensus on how to work on things together. 

If she makes a statement like "maybe" to your ILY I would call her on it ask in a non confrontational voice, "Sweetheart, what do you mean? I'm trying to understand where we're at here."

Just a thought. At least I don't think asking about her comment could hurt your relationship at this point.


----------



## COguy

It's hard reading your thread, too many bad memories. You're still trying to "fix" your wife. I hope you get to the point soon where you realize that your marriage is toxic and that it's not worth saving.

It's hell, but the real grief is not from losing your marriage, it's from realizing that the idea you had in your head of the woman you married never really existed.

You're making up your wife in your head, from the outsider's perspective, she treats you like garbage and you take it. Your marriage isn't worth saving. The sooner you come to grips with that, the better.


----------



## AlphaProvider

COguy said:


> It's hard reading your thread, too many bad memories. You're still trying to "fix" your wife. I hope you get to the point soon where you realize that your marriage is toxic and that it's not worth saving.
> 
> It's hell, but the real grief is not from losing your marriage, it's from realizing that the idea you had in your head of the woman you married never really existed.
> 
> You're making up your wife in your head, from the outsider's perspective, she treats you like garbage and you take it. Your marriage isn't worth saving. The sooner you come to grips with that, the better.


Right. It sucks to finally accept it, but the truth is better than making the lie in your head. Even a normal relationship is much better than a bad one.


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## AlphaProvider

COguy said:


> It's hard reading your thread, too many bad memories. You're still trying to "fix" your wife. I hope you get to the point soon where you realize that your marriage is toxic and that it's not worth saving.
> 
> It's hell, but the real grief is not from losing your marriage, it's from realizing that the idea you had in your head of the woman you married never really existed.


Did you go through a similar situation, because you put it into words very well.



COguy said:


> You're making up your wife in your head, from the outsider's perspective, she treats you like garbage and you take it. Your marriage isn't worth saving. The sooner you come to grips with that, the better.


Oh, when they hooked you and maybe you guys had some "blasts" of times at first... And if you aren't experienced with this certain situation or not experienced with deep and heavy betrayal, the mind will make things up to make the picture more pleasant than it is. It's kinda funny...


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## Thor

COguy said:


> It's hell, but the real grief is not from losing your marriage, it's from realizing that the idea you had in your head of the woman you married never really existed.


:iagree: 100% true. Plus the marriage never was what I thought it was. Bitter, bitter pills to swallow.


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## AlphaProvider

Thor said:


> :iagree: 100% true. Plus the marriage never was what I thought it was. Bitter, bitter pills to swallow.


Man. To think about that, what if you where being fed $hit sandwiches the entire time, and your brain was making it all make sense.


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## AlphaProvider

Thor said:


> :iagree: 100% true. Plus the marriage never was what I thought it was. Bitter, bitter pills to swallow.


It's a bitter and tough and painful pill to swallow... But if you can finally accept it and move on, you will feel so much better about yourself.


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## weightlifter

Thor and AP. I am NOT discounting your ideas. Understand. D or R this job is one of THOSE opportunities. I MUST concentrate on that. I worked it 6 months and they are interested.

Dream job dream location where housing and utilities wont cost 2 arms and 2 legs. Medium large city. Im excited. Still a bit long odds but I am going for it. For ME to better myself.

Funny how Im always on for the sh!t tests now to start calling her on this stuff and find out exactly what she means and shoot them down and pin her and force her to explain what she said right then and there.

The women on this thread are correct in one thing. I dont simplify enough and probably need to just avoid complex topics. we were watching food court wars. I told her IRL Auntie Annes was the most profitable store in the mall and she aid no its not its Sears. I then tried to explain profit per square foot. Didnt go over well. FWIW Antie Annes here makes 30K gross on a typ Saturday. They have lines half the day. They have a typical small storefront NOT in a corner or the food court nor near a high draw store like American Eagle.

What will happen? IDK but oddly with this job opportunity. Im kinda detached. I want this job!


----------



## Blonde

> start calling her on this stuff and find out exactly what she means and shoot them down and pin her and force her to explain what she said right then and there.


^^Does this refer to what firefly said above?^^
You make it sound like a wrestling match rather than an effort to be emotionally intimate with your wife- having a heart to heart conversation.

Firefly framed it much more nicely. You shouldn't be trying to shoot your wife down, pin her, nor force her to explain right then and there. You should be listening to her, asking clarifying questions, attempting to understand what the marriage looks like through her eyes.

I hear resentment in your OP and I bet your wife can feel it. To me, it sounds like you hate her and you think the grass is greener with the flirts. If I felt hatred, resentment, and anger spewing off my husband, it would do nothing to fan the flames of sexual desire. 

When H does what firefly suggested above. When he listens to me. When he makes an effort to hear what I am saying and to understand how I feel, he's showing love to me (this does not come naturally to him at all, he does it for ME!)

Marriage Help Program For Couples helped me and my husband. Helped me to understand that underneath his harsh exterior and inability to express feelings, he does love me/us and want our marriage to endure. Gave him some great power tools for greasing the marriage wheels.


----------



## Blonde

You can move on to what you think is greener grass with the flirts, but I don't think OW are going to warm up to your wrestling match approach to communication any better than your wife has.

The bliss stage where you actually talk to them and listen to them and act like you like and enjoy them will be pleasant enough, but once that wears off:


----------



## turnera

weightlifter said:


> I ask for sex most days and get it about 2x a month. I get that same poop sandwich look. Note I never beg. I know that is unattractive.


Gross.

Asking for sex most days IS begging. And it IS unattractive.

Stop asking. Every week or two, just woo her into the bedroom and have your way with her.


----------



## turnera

weightlifter said:


> The women on this thread are correct in one thing. I dont simplify enough and probably need to just avoid complex topics. we were watching food court wars. I told her IRL Auntie Annes was the most profitable store in the mall and she aid no its not its Sears. I then tried to explain profit per square foot. Didnt go over well. FWIW Antie Annes here makes 30K gross on a typ Saturday. They have lines half the day. They have a typical small storefront NOT in a corner or the food court nor near a high draw store like American Eagle.


Um, WHY did you feel it necessary to educate her on this? If you have a habit of this, I can see why she has shut down; she got tired of being shown how stupid she is. Who wants that?


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## weightlifter

turnera said:


> Um, WHY did you feel it necessary to educate her on this? If you have a habit of this, I can see why she has shut down; she got tired of being shown how stupid she is. Who wants that?


It came up because I said "that is odd" in how they scored the show. She then asked why. I then tried to use real life examples.

Actually that was just trying to make conversation.


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## turnera

You could have asked her HER opinion instead, rather than trying to show her the 'correct' answer. Just sayin'. You asked for women's opinions, and mine is that you may tend to make her feel...less than. And that is when women start to shut down.


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## weightlifter

I get where you are going and am not discounting it, but she asked me why it was odd. What I said was actually simplified and I tried using a real life example from places she is familiar with. I most certainly did not start off with an ROI analysis.

I answered a question. Answering a question with a question may be correct but damn odd to me.

Oh and I do appreciate it. I make ZERO claims of being perfect.

To be clear. Yep I like the flirts. I like ego strokes I admit it. I have NEVER reciprocated. That is dangerous territory.


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## turnera

So...what I see is a marriage that sucks. For both of you. Women check out when their marriage sucks and the first thing to go is usually the sex. Can't do it if you're not into your man.

So, what have you done to take a good look at the marriage she THOUGHT she was getting and the one she feels she is stuck with? What books have you read? What IC have you gone to? What questionnaires have you asked her to fill out (hint: start with the Lovebuster questionnaire)?


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## turnera

I will add that your IQ difference is probably going to turn out to be 75% of the problem. You may THINK it's not showing up every day, but trust me, it is.


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## weightlifter

We did one two day thing at Church. This was in Feb before I found her EA.

Gotta go do some stuff but this hit me.
>Can't do it if you're not into your man.<
Combine this with the fact that men use sex to bond with their women. PERFECT STORM!

Yea. Resentment. Sex, doesnt do much, blameshifting. Hell she in one of her letters she admitted she treats me like crap.

Working on not being technical with her.


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## weightlifter

turnera said:


> I will add that your IQ difference is probably going to turn out to be 75% of the problem. You may THINK it's not showing up every day, but trust me, it is.


BAM! I already think about simplifying on everything I say to her.

I thought on that one hard last night. It kills me and makes me wonder IF it can work no matter how hard I try.

When we met I was technical help our titles were kind of close rank wise and my pay was maybe 20% higher. Through the years I gained higher and higher titles. Today I carry an engineering title with a business degree. 

The job I am going for could lead to a director/ SR manager of a division title down the road not too far.

BTW thanks. Your a great shrink!

Now really gotta go. Yea I know I just said that.


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## turnera

weightlifter said:


> Gotta go do some stuff but this hit me.
> >Can't do it if you're not into your man.<
> Combine this with the fact that men use sex to bond with their women. PERFECT STORM!


SO true. Generally, women need closeness to have sex, men get closeness THROUGH sex. Given that women have rights this past century, it's created quite a conundrum. 

Unfortunately, it then behooves the person with the higher drive to figure out what the LD person is upset about, so he/she can remove that obstacle.


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## turnera

weightlifter said:


> BAM! I already think about simplifying on everything I say to her.


That's not what I'm talking about. Have some experience with this, and it is NOT easy for a high-IQ person to be able to put themselves in the mindframe of us peons, but it's essential for such a marriage to work. The mere fact that you say you have to dumb down how you speak to her speaks volumes. TRUST ME, she knows. It's degrading, humiliating, insulting, to know your spouse thinks you're incapable of carrying on in life as well as HE can. Instant shutdown.

Maybe you could, instead of dumbing down, start looking for HER good qualities, whatever they are, and keep those in mind whenever you interact with her? It will help you see her in a more important, more valuable light. And that just may help you interact with her differently.



weightlifter said:


> The job I am going for could lead to a director/ SR manager of a division title down the road not too far.


Women don't care about their man's job, generally. They care about the OUTCOME - if he's providing, if he's home on time, if he has to be on call 24/7 and put clients first over them. It's common for a man to put all his ego into his job; goes back to caveman days. But women don't, generally. They care about the daily interaction stuff - quality of life over quality of stuff. Have you discussed with her what the ramifications of the job are, how they would affect her daily life? THAT would show some respect for her and her feelings, which I suspect are in short supply around there.


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## Blonde

weightlifter said:


> BAM! I already think about simplifying on everything I say to her.


I suspect she is way above you in EQ and you could learn a lot from her when it comes to the world of empathy and feelings.

Ditto Turnera on learning to value your wife. Different does not mean inferior or else high IQ men should just be gay and go be with other high drive, high IQ, high testosterone, workaholic, utilitarian and non-empathic men. Then they would be a matched set and there would be no condescension or resentment in relationships anymore, right? 

Too bad you like women, weightlifter. Life could be so much simpler... :scratchhead:


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## COguy

Turnera and Blonde,

Love your advice but I think in this situation it's not helpful.

You're assuming both parties are rational and dedicated to the relationship.

Not the case in this one. She's a selfish cheater, and he's a doormat. Don't feed the fire that she's burning in his life every day about how this is HIS fault.

That's just going to string him along further as he tries to fix more issues about the relationship and himself in an attempt to make this work.

The last thing this guy needs is to spend more time and energy improving the relationship for his wife. She's shown through her actions she has contempt for him. He needs to work on getting his own life instead of being an emotional parasite to his wife.


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## weightlifter

New job should be ~55 hours a week which is not as bad as it sounds. 6AM before she is up to home around 5:30 with 1 odd day a week where I am project managing something a bit extra time at the end. IE most of the extra time is EARLY before she is up.

Add in. This would be going to a lower cost area with MUCH shorter commutes than the NE. This would mean more family time not less.

>Too bad you like women, weightlifter. Life could be so much simpler<
LOL wasnt there a Married with Children Episode like this? 

I do more with the kids than her.

Wonder if she has stay-at-home-mom-burnout-itis. Maybe she would like to go back to school a bit? If she works and it doent actually lose money. I'm game. The thing is. She really does not do much. 3 meals a week. Kind of watches the kids while on facebook. Hell I do two meals. I am actually a decent cook. Shes better tho. I do the laundry and dishes or they just pile up. I am the one that takes the kids out to play, in fact doing that again tonight. Taking the kids to the park. I do this for THEM tho. Not exactly hard work anyway and its kinda fun. I LIKE outside.

Dont really clean the house beyond that. Cant live without the clean clothes or dishes. The house can wait. And boy does it.

Maybe I'll invite her along. Kinda doubt it but Ill offer it up. Yes I will ask positively.

Wonder if there is an EQ test online.

Anyway. I have to differentiate between sh!t tests and other stuff. Cant nice out of sh!t tests.


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## turnera

OH, I missed that she's a SAHM. Get her working asap.


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## firefly789

An IQ of 110 is above average. 100 is the average. That means she is able to reason logically and understand most concepts. You don't need to simplify most things if they're not technical. The difference in IQs is not usually a problem in relationships, unless one falls very far below the mean. 

I haven't read the book Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus but it just seems like you have a gap in communicating and understanding each other. Like you're on Mars and she's on Venus. I don't think it's an IQ thing, I think as Blonde said, it's more of an EQ thing. Are you reading books like The 5 Love Languages to figure out how to improve relationship stuff and understand emotional needs? Skills that are helpful in making a successful career in a technical field are not necessarily the same skills that make a successful relationship.

You are going to need to think outside your box. Not to hurt your feelings, but you do realize your icon is a machine?

Yes, she should be doing much more on her side to work on your relationship. And, she hasn't treated you well in the past. But, she's not here, only you are so this advice is very one-sided. I really hope you two can move forward and work through this.


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## firefly789

Wow, she sounds depressed. Not everyone is suited to being a SAHM. (I'm not.) If she had a good job before, life can feel like it's passing you by. Would she see a doctor?


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## turnera

IIWY, I would tell her you think it's time she start going back to work, so she'll be happier. As such, you're going to start pulling back the amount of money in her account for spending on stuff. If she wants more, she's free to go get a job.


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## weightlifter

firefly789 said:


> You are going to need to think outside your box. Not to hurt your feelings, but you do realize your icon is a machine?


LOL. If I was worried about hurt feelings would I come to the WOMENS LOUNGE?

The machine... Head over to CWI. Im rather known for that machine there.


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## Blondilocks

Don't waste any time or energy trying to differentiate between sh!t tests and other stuff. I can say with 100% certainty that your wife is not sitting at home thinking up (consciously or subconsciously) any kind of test. We women do not do this. Neither are we taking out our mental tape measure and checking on the golden triangle (where do people come up with this stuff?).

What may be running through her mind in a continuous loop is how inadequate she feels with you. But you won't know what is truly behind this detachment unless you talk to her. Posters can speculate, guesstimate and postulate 'til the end of time, but SHE is the one with the answers. Put on your humble face and have a genuine, loving conversation with her.


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## firefly789

OK, I get the icon after visiting CWI. I will say, you have helped a lot of people through some very difficult situations. You've had to go through a lot of muck. It's very commendable of you, and you have a good heart. But, have you thought about the emotional cost it takes for you to be around those intense situations so much? You've been through the wringer yourself. You seem to have posted a lot. Maybe it would be good to take a break from CWI (or be "on call"), regroup yourself and take stock of your emotions, and concentrate on yourself and your situation?


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## firefly789

One last thing (I'm a teacher and have lots of time to post on summer break, but I still get lots done around the house). Looking at your first post and today's post:

Your wife....
had an EA
blew up at you in front of people
doesn't cook much, clean much, or do any housework much
is a distracted parent
doesn't spend play time with the kids
forgets your anniversary
is cold to you
says maybe to your ILYs
not receptive to sex
doesn't want to go to counseling

and your parents and others think you should leave.

We can give you a lot of tips on communicating, etc. But, with that last post about her behaviors combined with your first post, you're in a tough spot. She needs to see a doctor, go to counseling, and realize her marriage is in jeopardy. If not, you need to do some soul searching to figure out if you can continue to live like this.


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## diwali123

I dont have time to read the whole thread but the not showering thing indicates to me mental illness. Either depression or bipolar. 
Not trying to diagnose her but that's a huge red flag of a mental problem.


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## Iver

diwali123 said:


> I dont have time to read the whole thread but the not showering thing indicates to me mental illness. Either depression or bipolar.
> Not trying to diagnose her but that's a huge red flag of a mental problem.


This pretty much sums it up. Not showering for a week is indicative of some sort of mental illness in my mind. 

Your wife needs to see her doctor for an examination to rule out physical issues such as stroke or brain tumor (sorry but it does happen to people)

If she's cleared physically she needs to see a mental health professional to diagnose and address whatever issues are present.

I wish I could say something more positive here but if she's not willing to make the above basic steps I think you'd need to consult with an attorney. You'll need to understand how a divorce will impact you and your children, especially if your wife is not competent to care for them on her own.


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## diwali123

I don't know anyone who is not mentally ill who would not shower that long just to avoid sex. She knows many other ways to avoid it.


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## weightlifter

diwali123 said:


> I don't know anyone who is not mentally ill who would not shower that long just to avoid sex. She knows many other ways to avoid it.


YES she does. Another epiphany tonight. Makes me lean more toward the checked out maybe hopelessly.

Tried engaging. Brought up like five different ins for her to talk. 1 sentence. Back to the computer.

May or may not be savable. Gotta figure out where I will be physically in 6 months first. This job opportunity is a dream. If I get it its a dream come true. Right now this is #1. My gut tells me this is one of those 3 times in a lifetime things. I am going for it. My gut is right about 80% of the time. Selfish? Probably. Correct? Probably.

Pretty sure she thinks I am having and affair tho I have told her repeatedly no and point out 100% transparency on my locations and that girlfriends want to be taken places which given our money situation would be a neat trick. Insecurity at its best. Reason: Same "I dont know what you are doing" or similar line. Asked her about it an hour later, denied saying it at all. Couldnt ask it right then and there. Kids in car.

Last night we actually did have sex. After we cleaned up she spooned and held my package the rest of the night. Even tho I knew I wasnt getting round two I liked it. I liked it alot. Not sure why as there was no sex involved but I call em as I see em. This morning I told her I liked it. I get "I didnt do that"

New one from past few days I just figured out today is becoming a pattern. "WL I am going out" me "where" her "out" me "I tell you where I am going. where are you going" back and forth. finally she tells me library with kids. yep checked out.

FWIW I ALWAYS tell her all my destinations. Always have. Second nature. Spouses should have transparency on where they are going.

BTW I do take breaks from time to time when this place gets to me.

Took the kids to the park. Ugh they came back covered in sand from the sandbox. Good time tho.


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## diwali123

She said she didn't do that? 
I'm sorry but she has some huge mental problems. Huge.


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## tom67

weightlifter said:


> YES she does. Another epiphany tonight. Makes me lean more toward the checked out maybe hopelessly.
> 
> Tried engaging. Brought up like five different ins for her to talk. 1 sentence. Back to the computer.
> 
> May or may not be savable. Gotta figure out where I will be physically in 6 months first. This job opportunity is a dream. If I get it its a dream come true. Right now this is #1. My gut tells me this is one of those 3 times in a lifetime things. I am going for it. My gut is right about 80% of the time. Selfish? Probably. Correct? Probably.
> 
> Pretty sure she thinks I am having and affair tho I have told her repeatedly no and point out 100% transparency on my locations and that girlfriends want to be taken places which given our money situation would be a neat trick. Insecurity at its best. Reason: Same "I dont know what you are doing" or similar line. Asked her about it an hour later, denied saying it at all. Couldnt ask it right then and there. Kids in car.
> 
> Last night we actually did have sex. After we cleaned up she spooned and held my package the rest of the night. Even tho I knew I wasnt getting round two I liked it. I liked it alot. Not sure why as there was no sex involved but I call em as I see em. This morning I told her I liked it. I get "I didnt do that"
> 
> New one from past few days I just figured out today is becoming a pattern. "WL I am going out" me "where" her "out" me "I tell you where I am going. where are you going" back and forth. finally she tells me library with kids. yep checked out.
> 
> FWIW I ALWAYS tell her all my destinations. Always have. Second nature. Spouses should have transparency on where they are going.
> 
> BTW I do take breaks from time to time when this place gets to me.
> 
> Took the kids to the park. Ugh they came back covered in sand from the sandbox. Good time tho.


Wow how much longer do you want to be on this roller coaster? I think you have been quite patient but there comes a time when you are sick and tired of being sick and tired. You can't control her but you can control what you will put up with sorry WL you did great work with Rdmu now take care of you friend.


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## PieceOfSky

Weightlifter,

Some of your story sounds familiar. I'm deep in my own situation, but I offer you these thoughts. Some are based on big assumptions and are nothing more than hunches. Read them at your risk. I could be wrong, but here goes:

1) Unless you want to just file now and be done with it, or find some way to sit back and what it all implode, then you should be working hard AND smart to fix it. I know you are here, and working smart and hard is your intent. But,...

2) You need to recognize that you do not have the knowledge or intuition to figure it out on your own. It's great your here, willing to read, willing to listen even to criticism. But, that's not a plan for success. The folks who are interviewing you for the new job are interviewing you because they know you have knowledge and skills born from years of experience; otherwise, they could just hire a kid out of college, give them an iPad and a gift certificate for books at Amazon, instead of paying a seasoned pro such as yourself. If you care about saving this relationship, then you should not think twice about finding the resources to fund some serious professional help. Church-provided counseling could be good, for some folks, but I suspect you need someone experienced with more than relationship dynamics and communication. (Beware, I probably have a misunderstanding of the limits of church-provided counseling and the providers. I don't mean to offend or underestimate.)

3) If you get the job offer and it appeals to you, all the more reason to follow the plan with the most chance for success -- getting professional help. I am worried for you because I have seen spouses move to a new job, leave their spouse and kids behind to sell the house and finish a school term, but somehow end up divorced and alone in the new place. Among other things, probably makes the new job difficult to succeed at.

4) You are very bright and hardworking, no doubt, and have accomplishments to be proud of. But, I get the feeling you have some blind spots when it comes to your relationship with your wife (me too), and of what challenges she may be facing (psychologically), that I think you should really be researching (a) signs of depression, (b) what sort of mental health issues her parents might have had, (c) outofthefog.net (just to see if you recognize any of the traits/behaviors you have seen. I always worry when I start to think of such things, in my life, for a couple of reasons. So, I just want to emphasize it might be extremely difficult to correctly diagnose someone, and very likely counter-productive to even mention it to that someone, and it might even be easy to fool oneself into self-righteously branding "the other" with something, but, well, there maybe information there you will find useful.

5) I know what it is like to have my wife turn away from kissing me for 5 or 10 seconds. I know asking for sex frequently just makes her less likely to want to, and her denying me frequently is just going to make me feel even more deprived and anxious to connect; it is an unstable system, for sure. 

6) "maybe" -- in response to you telling her you love her? Sounds like part of her is telling her she doesn't believe you love her.

7) "IF you were to have an affair I would never know." -- Sounds like she is uncomfortable with the possibility you could have an affair and is fishing for some sign that you would never do that or confirmation of a fear that you might already be having one.

8) My wife's EA was with her ex -- not ex-husband, but her first "love", and her first lover, from what, 1984 or something like that. In some significant ways, I was not threatened by his existence -- thinking there is no way she would be able to spend any time with him in real life and not snap out of the fog. But, who knows. Sadly (for him, and his family) since the mid eighties, he turned out to develop a pretty severe problem with substance abuse, had been arrested for battering his wife, has a compulsion (according to his allegedly STBXW) that would lower his attractiveness on most women's scales (best I can tell); as the EA was developing, *I* was actually spending time looking for treatment facilities he could get into. (Does that make me coco-dependent?) Yet, she certainly risked our marriage, willfully, lying, trickle-truthing, per the script, best I can tell. But, the thing I need to understand, and perhaps you should to for your situation, is what would have driven her to do that? What was she missing? What did she hunger to feel? (PLEASE do not misunderstand that by there being a "motivation", that it somehow eliminates her culpability. I don't mean that at all. I simply mean: it is an opportunity to figure out what was "wrong" -- either in her, or in your relationship, or whatever -- and, with knowledge, in your hands, you have options perhaps.)

9) You mentioned alcoholism in your family of origin, but I wonder if you have ever explored how it might have affected you. There was a bit of that and other things in my family growing up. Even though on the one hand it seems "relatively mild" compared to some folks stories, I think there are blindspots and mal-adaptive behaviors I developed -- and, those who study that problem domain can probably predict what they are. Might be worth looking it up, yourself, someday.

10) You mentioned: "infamous letters about how much I suck". If you were willing to share parts of one of those with someone, I'm guessing that someone could provide insight to you, much more easily than just based upon the information you have written here. I don't know who that someone would be -- an IC would probably be best, but maybe there is someone on TAM that you respect and trust that might be willing to provide that. 

I have mostly until now avoided looking to see if my wife has BPD traits. I started reading this book today, and either way I think it is helping me see her more compassionately. It seems newer than some of the others, and so far is making sense to me -- understanding what is going on inside of her when she is saying the most outrageous and hurtful things to me. YMMV. But, it's $9.99 and can be read via the Kindle app on your computer: Amazon.com: Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship eBook: Shari Y. Manning, Marsha M. Linehan: Kindle Store Again, NO idea if this fits your wife at all. But even if not, it may provide insight into how emotions collide with behavior-control and logical thinking.


Good luck to you and yours.


EDIT: Even if you figure out what her mental challenges are, if any, that doesn't mean you should spend more time and try to help her solve them. Those are separate issues -- knowing and deciding. That's what I'm telling myself anyways, though I must be careful with that -- not many more decades left.


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## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> 4) You are very bright and hardworking, no doubt, and have accomplishments to be proud of. But, I get the feeling you have some blind spots when it comes to your relationship with your wife


^^



> EDIT: Even if you figure out what her mental challenges are, if any, that doesn't mean you should spend more time and try to help her solve them. Those are separate issues -- knowing and deciding. That's what I'm telling myself anyways, though I must be careful with that -- not many more decades left.


However, depression can be from circumstances. And I think a bigger (more mature) man will at least make an effort not to be the source/trigger of helpless powerless unheard and afraid feelings.


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## EnjoliWoman

I've read all of the replies and I see a few things that were skimmed over. 

She grew up in a dysfunctional home with a sibling who was sexually abused. She may or may not have been - I lot of children suppress such memories.

REGARDLESS - she needs counseling. She has an inability to cope and is obviously quite depressed. She has checked out of the marriage and as a SAHM you should NOT be doing laundry or dishes. She is rolling around in her own misery and resents you for taking away the one thing that brought her joy - her EA.

You do also deserve better. I know the engineering mentality and I happen to be well suited to it as I'm fairly logical and somewhat intolerant of pity parties. 

I think you need to sit her down, tell her you are concerned about her mental health - she doesn't do anything she enjoys and your marriage isn't working. Ask her to see someone and agree to marriage counseling and not with the church. They aren't equipped to handle mental illness and can't make a diagnosis or prescribe anti-depressants or deal with PTSD or any of the other potential problems. I assume you have insurance - USE IT.

If there's any hope for your marriage it starts there. 

Also, don't think it's helpful to your kids to stay in this. What are they seeing? Dad do most of the work and Mom lounge around unbathed half the time (you said every other day now) showing little affection and living in a pig sty (your words). This isn't a healthy dynamic for them to witness.

So take your logical engineering side and know there's a problem and figure out how to fix it. Stop focusing on the one stupid phrase that she won't even remember saying. You're spinning your wheels and it's non-productive.

Problem: Wife is detached/unhappy/unmotivated/unloving/non-sexual... WHY? You have to know why before you can fix it. How do you find out why? By seeing someone who can walk you through some dialog. Once you know why, you can fix it. 

It could be she just doesn't love you anymore and is miserable thinking this is all there is for the rest of her life because she doesn't want to be divorced. Easy to solve. Divorce, initiated by you.

It could be that she is depressed because she has little social activity and needs some hobbies, a job, a book club... something/anything. Easy to solve.

It could be a chemical imbalance but only a PhD can diagnose and fix that. Easy to solve.

BUT you will have to approach her with compassion if it's anything besides the first.

Good luck on the job.  A change of scene might do you AND her some good. And if it's just you - a fresh start doesn't hurt there, either.


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## weightlifter

PieceOS (not gonna call you POS.):rofl:
Out-effing-standing info

>If you get the job offer and it appeals to you, all the more reason to follow the plan with the most chance for success -- getting professional help. I am worried for you because I have seen spouses move to a new job, leave their spouse and kids behind to sell the house and finish a school term, but somehow end up divorced and alone in the new place. Among other things, probably makes the new job difficult to succeed at.<

This job is a few times in a lifetime opportunity. Odds are still against me by a bit. Not going to pass on it. If D happens it happens. I am aware that it might.

Im a believer but NOT a fan of church based MC. This church believes in R only even if one has a PA. Maybe that makes me a bad believer but there comes a point.

Funny thing is she wants to talk last night after all this. Im half asleep and she wants to talk NOW? sigh 1:30A and I have to get up early. Only chat type stuff about my day and how much the kids had fun at the playground. she couldnt do this at 10 when Im in the room with her to keep her company? Eventually after trying at 10P I went down and listened to my music. 

I think her denying saying anything is just her denial mode.

The alcoholism. Dont think its much of an affect if any now other than I rarely drink. Oddly the further I get from it the less against drinking I become. Simply I know the dangers and think I would keep things moderate and social. I lost 30 pounds because I simply decided to not get to 220 lbs from 218 after gaining 3 pounds in 3 weeks. 1 second decision. decide then execute.

As for IC for my wife. Its on radar along with delayed car maintenance and other fun things. Don't have the money at the moment.


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## turnera

Never go to church-based MC. Get a qualified professional who went to 6-7 years of college for counseling, not someone who took two classes.


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## weightlifter

Turn. See the post immediately above yours. Dont worry. I wont.


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## Blonde

turnera said:


> IIWY, I would tell her you think it's time she start going back to work, so she'll be happier. As such, you're going to start pulling back the amount of money in her account for spending on stuff. If she wants more, she's free to go get a job.


Depending how you approach this, it could come across as very controlling.

On the lists of abusive behavior that your wife will see if she ever searches on the internet is a high degree of power and control with the finances.

Another thing on the list of abusive behavior is if *SO prevents you from going to school and or working:*



> Wonder if she has stay-at-home-mom-burnout-itis. Maybe she would like to go back to school a bit? *If she works and it doent actually lose money. I'm game.*


^^ The way you put this bothers me weightlifter. 
Red flag.

Your wife doesn't need your permission nor approval to go to school or work. But it would be a much much more pleasant and less depressing marriage for her if she had your support and understanding.


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## Blonde

turnera said:


> Never go to church-based MC. Get a qualified professional who went to 6-7 years of college for counseling, not someone who took two classes.


ITA

The Retrouvaille I recommended is not "church based counseling". It is a peer to peer ministry run by people who have been through marriage hell and come out the other side by learning to communicate in a more safe and healthy way.

I went to a professional counselor with 10 years of experience and I concur with that recommendation for YOU. I don't think you should suggest it to your wife however because I fear she is going to hear it as you thinking she is the problem who needs to be fixed and she will never go (and I do agree with others that she needs counseling. I don't want her turned off to the idea because of how she is feeling towards you)


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## Blonde

You mentioned she is very involved with her church. Perhaps you could go talk to the pastor and share with him what is going on? If the suggestion for counseling comes from people she trusts and she knows care about her she will be more open to it, I think.

TBH, I doubt your marriage will survive the counseling though. You and she are a matched set and when she gets over the childhood sexual abuse, she is going to hate the control and condescension and won't tolerate it anymore. You will see rage instead of depression.

Wild ride ahead any which way it goes...


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## weightlifter

$7.25 is $4.70 after taxes. = $188 a week @40 hours.
Child care is more than that. 

Now if she wants to work a few evenings a week while I watch the kids after work. No problem. Paying to have her work is a problem.
9 month a year mom job during school. No problem
Some non bs schooling to get a higher level FT job. No problem. (bs schooling= schooling that rarely leads to actual work above minimum wage. History degrees are nice but rarely lead to work unless you are a prof)

Actually been racking my brains thinking of setting her up in her own business. (any ideas?) It would probably reduce her insecurities Im thinking as a bonus. Please dont mention anything MLM, she is not the social butterfly needed to get enough people under her to make that work.


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## turnera

Blonde said:


> Depending how you approach this, it could come across as very controlling.


I'm aware of that, but it's a key portion of the problem and needs to be addressed.


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## turnera

Does she do any crafts? Good cook? She could make it and sell it. I know someone who buys stuff at garage sales and sells it all on eBay; makes good money!

My husband brought home a cute bracelet he bought for $5 from a lady who's making it to help pay for her cancer treatment; she's made several thousand dollars so far.


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## weightlifter

Keep em coming Turn.

In her own business she could control her hours etc. FWIW a portable business is best in case we relocate.


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## Blonde

How old are the children? And how many?


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## EnjoliWoman

Blonde said:


> ITA
> 
> The Retrouvaille I recommended is not "church based counseling". It is a peer to peer ministry run by people who have been through marriage hell and come out the other side by learning to communicate in a more safe and healthy way.
> 
> I went to a professional counselor with 10 years of experience and I concur with that recommendation for YOU. I don't think you should suggest it to your wife however because I fear she is going to hear it as you thinking she is the problem who needs to be fixed and she will never go (and I do agree with others that she needs counseling. I don't want her turned off to the idea because of how she is feeling towards you)


If she is suffering from depression she may needs meds; if she suffers from PTSD she may need anti-anxiety meds. They are not equipped to treat that. 

I would imagine they ARE great for helping with communication, but I think she is beyond that. I think they BOTH need MC but I think IC is a good idea for the MC to recommend.


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## EnjoliWoman

You say you don't have enough $ for a co-pay??? Really she can only get a minimum wage job? Kids young enough to require daycare?? Based on your ages I assumed they were in school and she could work PT during the day.


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## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> 9) You mentioned alcoholism in your family of origin, but I wonder if you have ever explored how it might have affected you. There was a bit of that and other things in my family growing up. Even though on the one hand it seems "relatively mild" compared to some folks stories, I think there are blindspots and mal-adaptive behaviors I developed -- and, those who study that problem domain can probably predict what they are. Might be worth looking it up, yourself, someday.


...sooner than later

I think its disrespectful to her to plan out her life when we have no idea if she would want or like doing a home business. I wouldn't want to. Its just more isolation and loneliness. I want OUT of the house.

This thread seems to be about validating rejection of your wife, what a failure she is in your eyes and ideas to fix her.

I think you have a full plate working on your own side of the street.

Unsubscribing.


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## weightlifter

EnjoliWoman said:


> I've read all of the replies and I see a few things that were skimmed over.
> 
> She grew up in a dysfunctional home with a sibling who was sexually abused. She may or may not have been - I lot of children suppress such memories.
> 
> REGARDLESS - she needs counseling. She has an inability to cope and is obviously quite depressed. She has checked out of the marriage and as a SAHM you should NOT be doing laundry or dishes. She is rolling around in her own misery and resents you for taking away the one thing that brought her joy - her EA.
> 
> You do also deserve better. I know the engineering mentality and I happen to be well suited to it as I'm fairly logical and somewhat intolerant of pity parties.
> 
> I think you need to sit her down, tell her you are concerned about her mental health - she doesn't do anything she enjoys and your marriage isn't working. Ask her to see someone and agree to marriage counseling and not with the church. They aren't equipped to handle mental illness and can't make a diagnosis or prescribe anti-depressants or deal with PTSD or any of the other potential problems. I assume you have insurance - USE IT.
> 
> If there's any hope for your marriage it starts there.
> 
> Also, don't think it's helpful to your kids to stay in this. What are they seeing? Dad do most of the work and Mom lounge around unbathed half the time (you said every other day now) showing little affection and living in a pig sty (your words). This isn't a healthy dynamic for them to witness.
> 
> So take your logical engineering side and know there's a problem and figure out how to fix it. Stop focusing on the one stupid phrase that she won't even remember saying. You're spinning your wheels and it's non-productive.
> 
> Problem: Wife is detached/unhappy/unmotivated/unloving/non-sexual... WHY? You have to know why before you can fix it. How do you find out why? By seeing someone who can walk you through some dialog. Once you know why, you can fix it.
> 
> It could be she just doesn't love you anymore and is miserable thinking this is all there is for the rest of her life because she doesn't want to be divorced. Easy to solve. Divorce, initiated by you.
> 
> It could be that she is depressed because she has little social activity and needs some hobbies, a job, a book club... something/anything. Easy to solve.
> 
> It could be a chemical imbalance but only a PhD can diagnose and fix that. Easy to solve.
> 
> BUT you will have to approach her with compassion if it's anything besides the first.
> 
> Good luck on the job.  A change of scene might do you AND her some good. And if it's just you - a fresh start doesn't hurt there, either.


Wow how did I miss this one.

ATM I am working but working down. We dont have health insurance.

I get the impression the info on the abuse came out when my wife was in her 20s. Several things like the fact she was at least tolerant of her father at least until age 19 back this up.

Funny thing is I dont mind either task dishes or laundry. Now pulling weeds. HATE HATE HATE!

>REGARDLESS - she needs counseling. She has an inability to cope and is obviously quite depressed. She has checked out of the marriage and as a SAHM you should NOT be doing laundry or dishes. She is rolling around in her own misery and resents you for taking away the one thing that brought her joy - her EA.< 

Pretty epic statement there!

Yep house is a mess. Kids do more than she does. I do laundry, bring up the baskets and ask them to pull their stuff out. Working pretty efficiently. In the past 2 weeks I have reduced the mountain to a mole hill. Doesnt take that much time really.

She does have some. ?Wondering if she could be jealous of my friends? At work pretty I am friends with, well pretty much everyone with only a few exceptions. Should I stop telling her stuff like "friend9 just bought a new car and of course its the one I want but we cant get atm or tell her about stupid guy stuff we do where she rolls her eyes but cant help laugh (perhaps AT me LOL)" Its just me trying to talk to her but hmmmm. Then again she asks about how some of them she knows are doing. hmmm

Does she love me? billion dollar question.


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## weightlifter

Damn. I thought the business was a good idea. Gives her control. shrug.


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## Thor

If she was sexually abused she may never admit it to you. You know how cheaters will gaslight, omit information, lie, etc? A sex abuse victim wants to hide their abuse far more than the cheater does. Ergo she may believably deny abuse even when you ask her straight out about it. Even though you think you are a safe person to her, you may not be. You think you are the one person who will do anything to help her recover, yet she may never understand that.

I have no idea if she was abused, so I am not making the implication she was. Her sister being abused is a definite red flag. her tolerance of her father is not a disqualifier of him having abused her. Another male could have abused her rather than it being her father.

This is one of those things which you may never know one way or the other about her.


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## PieceOfSky

PieceOfSky said:


> EDIT: Even if you figure out what her mental challenges are, if any, that doesn't mean you should spend more time and try to help her solve them. Those are separate issues -- knowing and deciding. That's what I'm telling myself anyways, though I must be careful with that -- not many more decades left.





Blonde said:


> However, depression can be from circumstances. And I think a bigger (more mature) man will at least make an effort not to be the source/trigger of helpless powerless unheard and afraid feelings.



No matter what depression or helpless/powerless unheard and afraid feelings are caused by, putting effort to understand, fix one's contribution to the problems, and help the other heal and find wholeness is a kind and loving thing. 

My saying that deciding what to do about a situation is distinct from understanding what the situation is -- well, that comes from my personal situation, at the moment. One can think they are putting in quite a lot of effort over many years to "be good for her" and try to lead her in a health-yielding direction, but, for whatever reason, be ineffective; things can still erode over time. I am struggling to find what else I can do, and understand at what cost it might take, and whether the lesser of two evils is to end my marriage. It's possible that leaving is even more humane, for some important people in my family system besides me. So, the decision should be made consciously, in a larger context than the latest understanding of what the problem actually is.


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## turnera

Thor said:


> her tolerance of her father is not a disqualifier of him having abused her. Another male could have abused her rather than it being her father.


Child abuse victims often develop an unnatural attachment TO the abuser and will defend them and defer to them to the ends of the earth.


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## turnera

weightlifter said:


> Damn. I thought the business was a good idea. Gives her control. shrug.


 Blonde's point was that YOU were here, deciding what you were going to have your WIFE do to earn money. Something you should be asking HER about, not planning FOR her. If you have a habit of that...just one more reason she has detached from you.


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## EnjoliWoman

weightlifter said:


> Does she love me? billion dollar question.



I don't think she's jealous of your friends. That should be the last of your worries. Remember to treat your spouse better than anyone else. Often we take them for granted.

However - does she love you? She probably has trouble answering that. You have to love yourself before you can truly love another. I'm not sure she loves herself.

She may feel guilty that she was left alone and her sister suffered abuse. She may have been abused and hides it, denying it hoping to rug sweep. She probably has a deep rooted distrust of men and sex might have a different meaning for her because of the history. Where you see it as a way to bond, she may see it as a way to control; hence her not wanting to gives her control finally.

No insurance you say? Contact United Family Services. They provide counseling on a sliding scale. When I was unemployed it was $7 for an hour.


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## Enginerd

Weightlifter: I read your post today for the first time. 

Last night my wife actually told me she knows that she's not on my level and has felt this way since day one. I believe my wife and I have a similar IQ delta as you two. She said she hasn't made an effort to improve how she acts towards me (I also need more intimacy.) because she knows she will never be able to think like me. I believe it was the first honest thing she said to me in a couple of years. She was verbally and physically abused by her alcoholic parents so she has trouble with intimacy. She never saw what real intimacy looked like and only knows what her parents example taught her. Basically, we are co-dependent. She can handle sex if I want it, but it's usually without a real connection. She carries massive resentment for me because of who I am. Over the years she has done all sorts of passive aggressive things to express her resentment except actually tell me what she wants. I've made a multi year effort to be less analytical around her, dumb myself down and actively court her, but she's still unable to reciprocate emotionally. Now just her presence is creating intolerable anxiety in me because I know we are hopeless. After years of trying to fix us I'm finally on my way out the door. I can honestly say I tried for years, but this still represents a huge failure for me. 

Several years ago my wife went to IC and the Therapist told her that Engineers are hard to communicate with and that we fall into a special category for relationships. Based on 20 years in the computing industy I would say the Therapist was right. There is nothing sexy about rational thought or being factual all the time. Most people don't want to actually deal with reality in their personal lives, but for Engineers reality is typically our primary currency. I recognize that I'm hard to please and that I don't typically savor the simple things in life. I enjoy challenging activities that test my mental and physical abilities. My wife enjoys drinking more than anything else she does and often tells me I need to relax. We are simply mismatched.


I use to have a boss who would start every story with "When you're on your second wife". I would get upset with him and he would just laugh. He was 60 at the time and much wiser than I. That was 15 years ago when my boys where babies. I have no ill will toward my wife and will stay close by to support my family. I now believe I need to be the one to end our co-dependancy so we can all move forward into a more positive space. 

I'm sorry I don't have a more positive message, but I thought you might find it interesting anyway. By the way, I weighed 218lbs this morning and last month was the first time I ever broke 220lbs. I've been eating too much at night to kill the pain. I'm 15lbs over my fighting weight now so I will correct that in the next few months. If you want I can tell you about all the things I tried to fix us over the years.

Peace
Enginerd


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## northernlights

I just had to chime in and say that a huge IQ differential is really hard to overcome. Mine is at least 50 points higher than my husband's. It's a huge incompatibility, and it doesn't make you a failure if you can't make it work.


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## Thor

Enginerd said:


> After years of trying to fix us I'm finally on my way out the door. I can honestly say I tried for years, but this still represents a huge failure for me.


I think you should reframe that into something different. The marriage has failed, but it is a success when people figure out what is best for them and then take action to get there. Staying with her for the next 30 years would be a failure. Both of you moving on to a happier 2.0 version of your lives is a success.

I was brought up to avoid failure at all costs. I too thought divorce was a failure on my part. It took my IC to whack me a few times with a 2x4 before I understood I was judging things based on what my parents modeled for me (not healthy).


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## Enginerd

Thor said:


> I think you should reframe that into something different. The marriage has failed, but it is a success when people figure out what is best for them and then take action to get there. Staying with her for the next 30 years would be a failure. Both of you moving on to a happier 2.0 version of your lives is a success.
> 
> I was brought up to avoid failure at all costs. I too thought divorce was a failure on my part. It took my IC to whack me a few times with a 2x4 before I understood I was judging things based on what my parents modeled for me (not healthy).


I appreciate both of your comments. I did not know my father so failing at marriage and family life is hard for me to accept. I know the consequences of divorce for my boys, but I now realize that I can work hard to mitigate them. Also, the 2.0 version of my life will be a poorer life. That's also hard to accept for a formerly poor boy like me who made something of himself out of nothing.


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## PieceOfSky

Weightlifter,

In your original post, you said this:

> I want the love back but all I feel is. Nothing. Literally.

I'm wondering, are you still there -- wanting it back, but feeling nothing?

I'll confess I have been there quite a bit lately, and it goes and comes back, and goes again, and... Each time, it seems like it fades away further, and comes back less, and I truly worry it'll get to the point where there is nothing left to latch on to when it comes back, feeling wise, for my wife.

I have some thoughts I liked to share. I don't know if any of it will resonate with you, and again, I have little to go on here but some of your words and my own unhappy experiences. As they say, take what you want and leave the rest...

My take on what you have said so far is you may still want the good feelings back, but are stuck. You're a good engineer, and a do-er, and so your mind quickly starts looking for things to fix, things to change. But I'm feeling you are getting a head of yourself, and ahead of your wife.

From here, it does feel like a crisis. Maybe any day things could turn for the worst, and never be salvageable. In times like these, I have found myself having to admit I can't fix it, and I don't know what the solution is, that it hurts me, and it's hurting my wife, and I fear it may be hurting her so much that I will lose her. It's a humbling place to be, thinking in such terms, and feeling fear and despair. But, it is an honest place for me, and puts me in touch with the gravity of the situation, and sometimes, from there -- feeling a bit of the potential loss -- I can start to feel something for my wife other than the stress, and the contempt she frequently dumps my way.

I worry that you two have been living under that same roof, but haven't honestly shared a good feeling towards each other for a longtime. Sex may, for you like many, make you feel connected and feel a hint of the good old days. But, it sounds like it has not been that way for her. So, she hasn't even had that close feeling towards you.

If I were you, I'd focus on getting some feeling for her back, and creating a situation that might give her a chance to resist letting go even more. If I were you, I would:

* Try damn hard to understand why her feelings for you have changed towards the worst. You have letters. Read one to your self, but try to ignore the facts as you see them and try to hear how she is feeling. It may be completely unfair to you, and it may be she was in a fit of rage when she wrote the letter, but underline a couple of phrases that you flinch at the most, take a break, and come back later to try to come up with some understanding of how she could feel that way (legitimate to you or not). 

* Make of list of all that you two have somehow lost over the years. List the things that you used to enjoy doing together, or things about her that made you feel good about yourself, or things that she would lovingly do for you. I know for me, the lovemaking my wife lovingly gave to me meant much more than she'd ever understand, but there were other things to. List the other things you can remember.

* Make a list of the things you used to do for her that you thought made her feel loved and special, when you were courting, and during the good periods in your marriage. You may or may not have been right that they made her feel you cared, and she may or may not remember them or admit they were somehow important to her, but you tried back then. 

* Then, make a list of the things you've done lately that made her feel good about herself, and another listing what made her feel not so good. You're analytical, and an engineer, but I don't buy that folks like that are unable to put themselves in others' shoes and imagine what their world has been like; my hunch is it doesn't often occur to such folks to try to look at things from that perspective, but if one is focused and motivated to do so it can be done.

If you have a hard time coming up with the not-so-good feelings, I'll through these out: the car-in-the-drive-way (assuming she felt and/or heard your anger); the EA (yes, it was her awful and hurtful choice, and, sure, she might learn something from feeling bad about it and deserves to feel bad about it -- but, I'm just asking you to recognize how -- justified or not -- you might have put salt in that self-inflicted wound, at least as she sees it); any thing you've said to her to remind her that her behavior is out of line (not saying that it is bad to tell her when it is, just wanting you to understand if you mention it once as it happens, or if you keep bringing it up to her or in front of her in front of others that would make her feel degraded (not saying you do, but, allow yourself to ask yourself if you do).

* Come up with SOMETHING you can do together NOW, either just you and her, or you and her and your kid(s), that will directly remind you of what it is that you had, and what is on the line for you to lose. I've been thinking of doing this myself. So far, the best thing I can think of is to gather up photos from the happier times, like when we were dating, and scan them in (yeah, there was a time before digital), and make a photobook at shutterfly.com or something. There are groupon's from time to time, from other such companies, that are cheaper. And, there are ways to just save pictures to a slide-show on-line or one's computer.

* At some point in all this, let her see your honest, humbling despair and fear of losing these things. Of losing her. Of her losing the happier version of her you might have known before. Or of her never discovering how to feel generally good, from day to day. If you can't get to feeling humble about where you are with her, if you can't get to feeling less angry and more fearful of the surely coming loss if things don't change, then of course, this plan of action isn't going to help. But, if you do, maybe at least you can connect with a desire to not let it go to nothingness, without humbly, and respectfully, taking a step or two together towards some possible solution.


Considering the money situation, maybe the Marriage Help Program For Couples thing would be a good place to step forward to. One thing I think is easily lost as advice is being thrown your way, is it doesn't have to be EITHER-OR. You can do retrouvaille AND get her to an MD to talk about what might be physically keeping her down. (That last -- getting HER to see an MD (Psychiatrist, especially), or Psychologist -- may be darn near impossible if she is at all like my wife, because it will feel to her like you are trying to blame her for everything, that she is the one with the problem. And, in that case, it is another instance of a false EITHER-OR, but she will be reluctant to see that. All I think I know for sure is, however, if you cannot approach her humbly -- or maybe get the retrouvaille folks to sympathetically and perhaps subtly inquire about her mental state, and encourage her to see someone, then maybe you shouldn't try.)


Anyways, I'm rambling. I'm the eternal optimist, then a hurting fool, and then something happens to give me hope again. Hope came back for me today (wife went to at second appointment with MC -- this one here one-on-one; took six months to get her to step forward and do this, and she didn't look too flustered and p****-off afterwords, so, maybe she and I have something we can build on.)

Please take care. And, as long as you haven't given up completely, please find a way to want to take care of her and make her feel respected, valued, and loved when you can, in the midst of all this chaos.

Oh, and thanks for not calling me POS. I hate when that happens, I really do  (Gonna have to change my name someday.)


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## Thor

PieceOfSky said:


> gather up photos from the happier times, like when we were dating, and scan them in (yeah, there was a time before digital), and make a photobook at shutterfly.com or something.


I am in the middle of this project. Tons of slides and prints of us and of the kids when they were younger.

It is a bitter-sweet journey. Not something to do with the wife if you are feeling negative about things.


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## PieceOfSky

Thor said:


> I am in the middle of this project. Tons of slides and prints of us and of the kids when they were younger.
> 
> It is a bitter-sweet journey. Not something to do with the wife if you are feeling negative about things.


Interesting. I was thinking it would put me and her in touch with the good times we had and motivate us to fight hard to have them again. But, now that you mention it, I could see it going the other way too. Did you start on the project thinking it might help, or did you start it for some other reason?


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## Thor

So I could have copies if we split.

Some of it is good but there are some triggering thimgs too for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barbados

Weightlifter, I've seen you give a lot of great advice to a lot of other members and have helped them immensely. So I ask you this, if I posted this thread, what would your advice be to me ?


Clearly your wife has checked out, so why do you stay and suffer ? Is it for the kids ? They are seeing their SAHM not even doing a good job taking care of the house. You deserve better, and you of all people have seen all the threads where people do D and eventually (and yes, painfully) end up in a much better place.

Best of luck you !


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