# What was my wife doing and how should I think about it?



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Hi, I've been surfing around the site since creating a profile this morning but I haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I'm sure it's here and I just haven't seen it given how much is posted here, but I figured I'd give it a try and ask my own question about my wife's behavior.

What I'm hoping to get feedback on is what exactly my wife was doing when she was acting up at various times in our marriage. I also would like to know how I should think about it, or what I should call it when we talk about it. I have seen PA and EA, but I don't think they describe her behavior, but I feel somehow like she was unfaithful to me anyway. Please let me know if I leave out something important.

So she has at various times in our marriage (11 years next month) had male friends or acquaintances who have pursued her for sexual reasons. I mean she thinks of them as friends or just good work buddies, but these men obviously think of her sexually. There was one exception, apparently years ago, when she thought of one man as someone who was more than a friend, but denies anything went on other than some kind of emotional connection. With the various others over the years, she had no connection to them like that, but liked their attentions, and most important to me, she lied to me whenever I question her about it so that they could keep it up. She admits thinking about cheating but once again denies it ever happened with any of them.

Today, over a year since the last time this happened, I feel betrayed by her. I found out what had been going on that time, and now I have been able to basically beg her to come clean and she has told me about the others over the years as well. I feel like I have never been able to get a full truth from her since though, and our marriage has also been damaged by her words and actions. When I found out she really became angry with me and spent a few months tearing me down in a lot of ways and for various failures on my part. I admit not being a great husband, but I have been a good one at least and have been really crushed by all this. I also feel like I have worked hard to fix things whereas until a couple of months ago, she did not. 

I also feel like she misses her single life now that she is in her mid 30s. I can improve but I am dealing with lingering doubts about us and whether I even knew her well at all. Other times I feel like I am making a bigger thing out of it than I should but I don't know. I feel also like I can't get straight answers from her, though we fight less than we did a year ago or more.

Okay, any ideas? What is this if not cheating or an EA? What should I call what she does or did? What do I do now?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Can't tell you if it's cheating, it is suspicious and aligns with the cheaters script but you're going to need more info before you can confront or act on it in any concrete manner.

Do you have access to her phone/phone bill?
Do you have access to any computer she uses?
Might want to velcro a voice activated recorder under her car seat to listen to what she's saying to who.

Are you willing to do some investigating?


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Can't tell you if it's cheating, it is suspicious and aligns with the cheaters script but you're going to need more info before you can confront or act on it in any concrete manner.
> 
> Do you have access to her phone/phone bill?
> Do you have access to any computer she uses?
> ...


Okay thanks and I should make clear much of this is stretching back to before we were married. Married almost 11 years, together 16+. It comes and goes every few years, or what I know about, so that every 2-3 years there's apparently been another random dude in her life. But the worst of it was long ago and I didn't know of it until the most recent incident and the aftermath of me finally being told about it.

In terms of investigating, I check her phone, computer, etc regularly and had only one scare recently that turned out to be a false alarm. Recording I could do but I don't think she's doing anything now anyway. Her communications are mostly text and I have kept good track of that with nothing but her friends being texted. 

All this being said, I'm open to the idea of checking further. But if any actual cheating happened, I think it did well into the past. Right now I'm more than anything trying to understand how to process all of this, though of course I'd also want to know if she's up to anything now.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Look... being friends with guys in itself isn't bad, although it could lead to something else. How friendly, as in sharing emotions, etc... will tell you whether it's an emotional affair.

Does she like the attention she gets from other guys? Sure. The question you should ask yourself is why and why doesn't she get it from you?

If it has been going on for years and years, there may be nothing you can do. She's narcissistic and you probably never be able to heap the attention on her that she needs. If that's the case, professional help is needed.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> Look... being friends with guys in itself isn't bad, although it could lead to something else. How friendly, as in sharing emotions, etc... will tell you whether it's an emotional affair.
> 
> Does she like the attention she gets from other guys? Sure. The question you should ask yourself is why and why doesn't she get it from you?
> 
> If it has been going on for years and years, there may be nothing you can do. She's narcissistic and you probably never be able to heap the attention on her that she needs. If that's the case, professional help is needed.


Okay, thanks. I've come to the conclusion from talking with friends and family that in fact I give my wife her share of attention, maybe more than is warranted. Often I get the advice to take her out on a date night once a month and then I tell them that in fact I do that once a week already. Up until maybe a year ago my wife and I spent 90% of our free time together, not as much now but that's good for both of us. Still a lot though. So I don't know where I'm failing her, but I honestly say that I have worked really really hard to be a good husband for our whole marriage and it hasn't helped much.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What you call it doesn't matter. People cheat - call it EA, PA, A, whatever. it's all cheating, and what matters is that it ALL sucks 

If my hubby did what your wife did, I would call it cheating. She lied to you about what she was up to with other men. Kept it secret so you wouldn't find out. That right there tells you that what she was doing was inappropriate.

But I think the harder part of this is that you have no way of knowing if she's told you the truth. And you probably never will.

I'm in a similar situation - I confronted my husband when I found out he was cheating, but before I got to the bottom of everything he was up to. I've had to decide if I can live with that or not. And I've decided I can - I believe him when he says I know everything now. But that's because he's done pretty much everything a truly remorseful wayward can to prove he's done.

What is your wife doing now? How is she acting?


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> What you call it doesn't matter. People cheat - call it EA, PA, A, whatever. it's all cheating, and what matters is that it ALL sucks
> 
> If my hubby did what your wife did, I would call it cheating. She lied to you about what she was up to with other men. Kept it secret so you wouldn't find out. That right there tells you that what she was doing was inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Okay thank you and sorry to hear of your troubles as well. In terms of what she is doing now, she's better and I think she's trying. But basically I found out what was going on from other people about a year and some change ago. This was followed by months of her tearing me down, verbally with some pretty bad insults that I think I'll still have echoing in my head in a decade or two. We fought and argued a ton. 

Then there were months of me working hard to fix our marriage but with little help from her, like she was enjoying it or something. I also had job troubles during this stretch which of course made things worse. Around this time, maybe 6 months ago or less, I told her I was leaving if she didn't try. She got better but not great then. She tries to be a "good wife" in an overall sense, but still won't talk about a lot of it until I'm shouting. Then she cries and tells me how cruel I am. I get ugly but I don't know how to get the truth and as you say I may never. 

So she's working at it but I think I still am carrying the weight more than she is. Also, I think still she is nonchalant about not acting like a single woman at times and keeping men at a proper distance, but maybe I'm paranoid.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

If she isn't cheating, she's looking for some type of validation. She's either doing this because she doesn't get that from you or because she's very insecure.

I suggest you tell her you really value your relationship and want to make it better and ask her to go to marriage counseling. If she agrees, you can get to the root of the issue and make things better. If she refuses you know she isn't invested in your marriage regardless of whether an EA or PA has happened.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Please have a look at the CWI Newbie link in my signature. Your wife is exhibiting classic rugsweeping and blameshifting tendencies - very common for wayward spouses. Just the fact she refuses to talk about it is a HUGE problem.

Start by admitting to your self that she cheated, then go from there. Read up on the 180 - that will help you no matter what happens. You should begin to detach yourself from your wife, because she does not sound like she's invested in your relationship very much at all.

You *could* tell her you require her to take a polygraph. That does give some people the closure they seek. Some, not so much.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

GoodForNothing- I don't think you can ever know for sure what the truth is from the past. Either she's telling you the truth or she isn't. At best, her behavior was inappropriate and unfaithful. A loyal wife would shut down the guys' advances immediately.

Instead of beating yourself up about what might have happened in the past, why don't you learn from it and have an honest and open discussion with her about boundaries? The first thing you two should do is read Shirley Glass' great book 'Not Just Friends.' 

And, just because words and actions don't always match up, I would secretly monitor her communications (texts, emails, facebook, etc.) regularly. The phrase of the day is 'Trust, but verify.'


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> If she isn't cheating, she's looking for some type of validation. She's either doing this because she doesn't get that from you or because she's very insecure.
> 
> I suggest you tell her you really value your relationship and want to make it better and ask her to go to marriage counseling. If she agrees, you can get to the root of the issue and make things better. If she refuses you know she isn't invested in your marriage regardless of whether an EA or PA has happened.


Oh okay thank you. I think maybe she is insecure, but she sometimes acts the opposite. Like she tells me she is very attractive to men and can't help their attentions. Then I worry I am being unfair to her with all this, not her fault or something.

I tell her often how I love her and I praise her quite a bit. But she says I am only her husband and it isn't the same as when other men say things to her. 

I asked her a while back, maybe 3 months, about counseling and she refused to go with me. I haven't gone myself. I don't think she doesn't care, but I think she thinks a counselor will attack her. She had problems with her parents about 5 years back and was in counseling for that aftermath of that and she felt counseling didn't help. So she generally distrusts counselors she tells me.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

One big question, does she password protect the phone and do the both of you have access to each other's emails facebook ect? If not well...


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Cubby and tom67--yes I have access to her phone and email. Nothing but a scare that was false and she ended up laughing at me when I brought it up. She is very comfortable now about all this and I think nothing is going on, I think she got away with murder for years though. But yes I track her very carefully now though I hate being this way. 

Cubby--about the boundaries talk one problem I have is that my wife always just says "sure, no problem" and then kind of blows me off. I've done more than boundaries only, I've had long talks with her about our values and whether we even share any. I doubt even that sometimes, but she thinks I'm blowing it out of proportion. But I've made my boundaries clear and she just laughs and says fine.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Please have a look at the CWI Newbie link in my signature. Your wife is exhibiting classic rugsweeping and blameshifting tendencies - very common for wayward spouses. Just the fact she refuses to talk about it is a HUGE problem.
> 
> Start by admitting to your self that she cheated, then go from there. Read up on the 180 - that will help you no matter what happens. You should begin to detach yourself from your wife, because she does not sound like she's invested in your relationship very much at all.
> 
> You *could* tell her you require her to take a polygraph. That does give some people the closure they seek. Some, not so much.


So I can call this cheating? She says no I can't but I've had the feeling that it was. My gut tells me she cheated just by what I know, let alone what I don't know.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> But basically I found out what was going on from other people about a year and some change ago.


Your wife's behavior must have been bad if other folks felt they needed to inform you.



> This was followed by months of her tearing me down, verbally with some pretty bad insults that I think I'll still have echoing in my head in a decade or two. We fought and argued a ton.


Her being argumentative and criticizing you is a classic sign of a cheating wife. She's trying to paint you as a bad husband to justify her choice in...well...maybe screwing the other man. 



> She tries to be a "good wife" in an overall sense, but still won't talk about a lot of it until I'm shouting. Then she cries and tells me how cruel I am. I get ugly but I don't know how to get the truth and as you say I may never.


Don't ever shout and get ugly with her. It's unattractive to her and she'll build up resentment toward you. Being the cool, calm, confident guy is attraction to women. A raving, screaming lunatic? Not so much.



> So she's working at it but I think I still am carrying the weight more than she is. Also, I think still she is nonchalant about not acting like a single woman at times and keeping men at a proper distance, but maybe I'm paranoid.


Both of you need to be educated about boundaries.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Did you give her permission to sneak around behind your back, lie to you, and carry on doing whatever with other men? If not, then yes, she cheated. Cheating is most assuredly NOT only PIV sex, which I bet is what she's trying to say.

Of course she doesn't want to call it cheating. She's trying to pretend she hasn't done anything wrong. Like I said, classic WS behaviour. Read the newbie link - it explains it all better than I can.

This is also a good book about the slippery slope that EA's are.

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What exactly did you find out ?


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Cubby said:


> Your wife's behavior must have been bad if other folks felt they needed to inform you.
> 
> Her being argumentative and criticizing you is a classic sign of a cheating wife. She's trying to paint you as a bad husband to justify her choice in...well...maybe screwing the other man.
> 
> ...


I don't know if the others felt the need to inform me so much as gossip from the gossipers got to me. They said it in front of me but it was all patchwork and I had to put together what they were saying. 

I don't get ugly as much anymore, but I have to say when I start off trying to calmly talk about such important things, and she just laughs or pats my head, and I get irritated, she gets defensive, etc etc. Then I get mad but of course its the wrong way to do it. It just feels like she gets 90% of the benefits of marriage while I do 90% of keeping it together. But you're right I have to not do that.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> What exactly did you find out ?


Hello, I'm unclear on the question you're asking me. Do you mean what did I find out about what was going on?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with being mad at her - I would be FURIOUS if my husband treated me like that. But use your anger to your advantage. Let her know you're royally pissed and that you're considering ending it because of the flippant way she's acting and the way she's neutering you with her reactions. Just don't totally flip on her.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> There's nothing wrong with being mad at her - I would be FURIOUS if my husband treated me like that. But use your anger to your advantage. Let her know you're royally pissed and that you're considering ending it because of the flippant way she's acting and the way she's neutering you with her reactions. Just don't totally flip on her.


This is kind of the stage we're in now. I've told her I'm thinking of leaving, and she's trying to do better as a wife. I do flip out on her though. I just feel like all the stress I feel would be reduced if she became honest and just told me what I want to know, but she works very hard to say nothing when we talk. It's like being at a presidential debate, a lot of words but nothing said. So then I get mad at her and she cries. I have to stop doing that because I know it's bad for both of us. 

In terms of her being flippant, she does that some, but then other times it's almost like she's freaked out about something. I can't explain better, it's just a weird combo of behaviors.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

cheating or not....she has proved to be a dishonest person time and time again.

are you happy with her?
do you enjoy her company?
dose she enjoy your company?
is she desirious of you?
dose she earn an income and is she fair with how she spends it....dose she contribute all or most of it the the house hold budget?
are you happt to grow old with her?

try your best to answer these questions as truthfully as possible.

do you want to be married to someone who stabs you in the back or someone you can count on to have your back!


I think you know deep down that she is not a very good person.

you got some tough choices to make. Make them with your best interest in mind.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> one problem I have is that my wife always just says "sure, no problem" and then kind of blows me off. I've done more than boundaries only, I've had long talks with her about our values and whether we even share any. I doubt even that sometimes, but she thinks I'm blowing it out of proportion. But I've made my boundaries clear and she just laughs and says fine.


Boundaries have consequences. Long talks are not boundaries. Her laughing you off indicates the talks are nothing more than ... talks. Without consequences.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> So I can call this cheating? She says no I can't but I've had the feeling that it was. My gut tells me she cheated just by what I know, let alone what I don't know.


Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness --> Cheating

Inappropriate Behavior becomes unfaithfulness if it involves lying and / or the intention to BE unfaithful. Continually choosing inappropriate behavior is unfaithful. Cheating is a level of unfaithfulness. It varies what that might be but for sure Unfaithfulness is where the line is in a marriage.

We can safely say from your posts that she is continually inappropriate and seeks it out to the detriment to your marriage and is not a faithful wife. 

Did she have PIV sex with another man? Perhaps. maybe not. But is that the only boundary.

It osunds like all her affairs have been rug swept. Very poor of no boundaries. Part of this is on you for not insisting on better boundaries but her unfaithfulness is on her.

You have been was to permissive with this stuff and are now really struggling with it. Good luck. I could not put up with any of this.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness --> Cheating
> 
> Inappropriate Behavior becomes unfaithfulness if it involves lying and / or the intention to BE unfaithful. Continually choosing inappropriate behavior is unfaithful. Cheating is a level of unfaithfulness. It varies what that might be but for sure Unfaithfulness is where the line is in a marriage.
> 
> ...


I really had no idea what was going on until I found out about the last man. I had to ask repeatedly to find out about a lot of the rest of it, but so much of it was a long time ago and there's really nothing I can find out now. Unless she wants to tell me but she seems to hate talking about all of it.

I don't understand the boundaries that people are talking about here. To me what is okay should be a matter of common sense. Why doesn't she see that? I think that she does but she chooses to violate them when she does what she does. So really the only issue is how to respond as far as I can tell.

I guess I haven't made the boundaries work given that I haven't punished her other than saying I might divorce her. Though I think she really does get upset when I shout, but obviously that isn't enough.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Boundaries cannot be assumed. Go ahead and do His Needs Her Needs together. You will learn assuming is a bad idea. You will also see boundaries explained. You have to agree to boundaries and there has to be consequences for crossing them.

If you always do what you do, you always get what you get.

So assuming got you here. Not good.

Also you shuld not rely on just asking. You should be involved enough to know more about what goes on. If she is hanging around guys what do you think is going on. Guys only invest time in women they are interested in. Duh!

So gather some dogs around and set your steak dinner down. You may be able to intimidate them ( steak block ) but go ahead and leave the room. See what happens.

Instigation
Isolation
Escalation

So your wife is not a piece meat. Certainly not. But if she puts herself out there and there are no boundaries the dogs will eat her up like they have not had any in forever.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> yes I have access to her phone and email. Nothing but a scare that was false and she ended up laughing at me when I brought it up.


You confronted her too soon with what little you had, of course she'll be doing much better to cover her tracks this time around.



What kind of an environment does she work in? Her schedule? Works late or on the weekends?

Where does she spend her free time? 

Does she go out partying/clubbing?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> *When I found out she really became angry with me and spent a few months tearing me down in a lot of ways and for various failures on my part.* I admit not being a great husband, but I have been a good one at least and have been really crushed by all this. I also feel like I have worked hard to fix things whereas until a couple of months ago, she did not.


To me, that sounds like she has a lot of anger and resentment. I think she's directing that at you because you are right to feel betrayed and she knows it. It's easier to blame you for whatever "failures" on your part than to address the underlying issues which lie within herself.

She liked the attention she was getting from her male friends. It made her feel good. For whatever reason, she wanted or felt she needed the validation she was getting from them. Sometimes women who have some insecurities about themselves feel the need for others around them to validate them. It sounds like she crossed the line into something more with one of them - that's an EA. 

Whatever you call it, you have a right to your feelings and you feel betrayed. Whatever anger she spews at you, stand your ground about this if you want to reconcile. She needs to acknowledge and address her underlying issues - why does she have a need for validation from other men, and what other need was the EA filling for her?

You can take half the blame for the problems in your marriage, but she needs to take full blame and responsibility for her actions, and their effect on your marriage and on you.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> Though I think she really does get upset when I shout, but obviously that isn't enough.


She has been "trickle - truthing", meaning she lets a little bit out at a time. We just texted. Okay he came by once. OK we expressed interest in each other. Well we kissed once. Alright, we had sex once, missionary and I didn't like it. Well, we know it was lots of sex 


She's got all the signs of manipulating you. Guilt-tripping you for being concerned about it. Ridicule. Pushing your buttons to get you angry. She's had sex with other men. Not that it matters, the emotional abuse is enough. 

Getting you angry always works beceaus then they can point to your anger and say how unreasonable you are. So you can never let them manipulate you to anger. Or guilt, or shame, or fear or whatever emotional weapon they are using.

The reason you can't put your finger on it or what it's called is because manipulation is always concealed. It's hard to understand what they are doing to you. That's why it is working.


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

I´m not trying to be one huge A-Hole here but
You wrote

_I don't understand the boundaries that people are talking about here. To me what is okay should be a matter of common sense. *Why doesn't she see that?* _

The problem is not that she does not "see it" The problem is
you somehow refuse to understand,the fact that she does see it.

There is no consequences for what she does and sadly keep´s doing.. Until you start imposing consequences nothing will change,i´m afraid.. 

Realise you cant control here. As little as she can control you.

Figure out your own boundaries and stick to them.And stand by them no matter what. So you know you´r self where to draw the line.. Right now she has no reason to change or even listen..


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

So the consensus seems to be that I can call this cheating. Is this so? When we talk about it I can fairly tell her she has cheated or has been unfaithful? I kind of figured this but I wasn't sure after reading the information about PA and EA and all the distinctions. I don't if she was physical and her emotional connection was years ago, but I guess it doesn't matter.

Is she still cheating? Will this always come up again, is that the problem? Or was it something she learned from in the past and has changed, which she told me last night? Does that happen?

What are valid consequences? Is divorce the only option or is there something short of that that actually works?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I would ask her to take a polygraph and see her reaction, should be telling jmo.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> Is she still cheating? Will this always come up again, is that the problem? Or was it something she learned from in the past and has changed, which she told me last night? Does that happen?


What did she learn? Did she tell you?

Did she tell you that she was insecure and looking to other men to validate her attractiveness? If so, what has changed for her now? 

Did she tell you what emotional needs the man she went too far with fulfilled for her? And why she needed that from someone other than you? What has changed now for her? Does she still need that something?

What I'm getting at is it's possible for people to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them, but not if they haven't done any introspection to discover and learn what within themselves was so messed up that they needed to go outside their marriage to get it. And if she can't explain it to you, then she hasn't really thought about it, so can't have learned a thing.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Women who seek this kind of validation have very deep-seated, fundamental problems.

OP has already seen some of their traits:
1) They're very outgoing and make friends easily
2) They're also very flirty
3) They portray themselves as being very sexual, whether they truly are or not
4) They act as if, and likely know, that this behavior makes them very desirable to men
5) They make no effort to stop the men from pursuing them
6) When confronted by a SO, they say thing like "he's just a friend", "i don't think of him that way", "he's like a brother", all the while completely encouraging the men's behavior
7) They are absolute masters at skirting boundaries and manipulating the situation to make it seem like they didn't actually cross the line, ie "I can't control how men treat me", "it's not my fault", etc
8) They tend to have many more guy friends than girlfriends, bc they also tend to be very catty
9) They always have a cadre of men vying for their attention.

I don't often make sweeping generalizations, but these women are trouble and, IMO, not suitable for marriage. Men married to these women spend their entire marriages just like the OP, wondering what she's up to, how much truth she's telling, and knowing that they're being gaslighted but with no reference point to actually find the truth.

OP, along with the other advice regarding boundaries, I would get you both into MC and she needs IC. If you don't address the underlying issues that causes her need for this validation, you will deal with this for the rest of your marriage.

ETA: I know quite a few women like this and even dated one for a while before I learned to look for the warning signs. Every one of them is a serial cheater, and the one I dated is a "multi-level" cheater, i.e. she cheats on the men she's cheating with while cheating on her H.


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## Jack29 (Oct 20, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> Women who seek this kind of validation have very deep-seated, fundamental problems.
> 
> OP has already seen some of their traits:
> 1) They're very outgoing and make friends easily
> ...


And they're always in a state of denial like all of the above is highly regular and it husband's/bf's fault for being insecure!


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Jack29 said:


> And they're always in a state of denial like all of the above is highly regular and it husband's/bf's fault for being insecure!


Yep. Gaslighting is like a second language to these women, and they know how to create an entire world around it. The men usually know on some level that what she says is wrong, but bc she's gaslighting them so hard, they have no point of reference to seek the truth.

The problem is that these women are often attractive and their overt sexuality can be very, very alluring to men who don't know what these women are about.


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Davelli0331 said:


> Women who seek this kind of validation have very deep-seated, fundamental problems.
> 
> OP has already seen some of their traits:
> 1) They're very outgoing and make friends easily
> ...


Thanks. I'd like to address some of this because it has me thinking. But at the same time I wonder if it applies to her. Overall I think it does. Using your numbering:

1. I think my wife is outgoing sometimes, but other times she's kind of misanthropic. I guess she is social, she has a group she goes out with once a week or so. It's been part of our issues because I think these groups can be a bad influence.

2. She is definitely flirty, though she denies any bad intention. She says its automatic.

3. My wife is very sexual in a way that is hard to understand. It isn't behavior so much as seems to come from within naturally. I saw it when we first met. That being said, sometimes she embraces it and other times she says she hates it and the attention it brings.

4. She is aware that men chase her because they have for most of her life apparently.

5. Yes, this is a huge deal to me though she pretends to be innocent.

6. This is one progress I've made since the last guy chased her because I got her to admit she likes the attention and thinks about cheating. She still denies any bad intention and says they're bothering her or that they're just work friends like you say.

7. Yes, another huge issue for us. She doesn't just skirt boundaries, she seems to live directly on the boundaries as often as possible. If there's a gray area to her behavior she embraces it because it's exciting. But yes she also says she can't control what men do.

8. Yes

9. Yes

The stuff about gaslighting is huge to me right now because that's how I feel, like I know something's wrong but I can't figure out how to address it or even complain about it, which is why I'm on the site trying to at least get some understanding of it.

We talked about the cheating issue last night and I paid attention to her body language which is the only way sometimes I can get any truth out of it. She reiterated that "no c-ck has ever been in her" but mine, which is a big deal to me, and I actually believe her on that. She said this right after we'd been together so I think that explains her graphic aspect, so sorry. But it also reinforces my sense that she thinks the whole game is to avoid that only and then the rest is okay, so it creates worry for me anyway.


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## Jack29 (Oct 20, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> We talked about the cheating issue last night and I paid attention to her body language which is the only way sometimes I can get any truth out of it. She reiterated that "no c-ck has ever been in her" but mine, which is a big deal to me, and I actually believe her on that. She said this right after we'd been together so I think that explains her graphic aspect, so sorry. But it also reinforces my sense that she thinks the whole game is to avoid that only and then the rest is okay, so it creates worry for me anyway.


Ok, this is can be quite unpleasant but im going to mention it anyway because after all the whole thing we are discussing isnt much pleasant: Try to pick her mind to see what counts as cheating in her books. The reason being i've met women that will say things such as "oral, or making out doesn't count, there has to be penetration". Good god i was appalled first time i heard it and i hope this is not your case, but im just making you aware!


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Jack29 said:


> Ok, this is can be quite unpleasant but im going to mention it anyway because after all the whole thing we are discussing isnt much pleasant: Try to pick her mind to see what counts as cheating in her books. The reason being i've met women that will say things such as "oral, or making out doesn't count, there has to be penetration". Good god i was appalled first time i heard it and i hope this is not your case, but im just making you aware!


Thanks. I think she knows those things are cheating, but I guess I shouldn't assume. What I think she does is tries to claim that as long as she hasn't had actual sex with a man I shouldn't complain. I think she uses it as a get out of jail free card to avoid admitting that she's been unfaithful. But yes its my worry that she did things short of actual sex and now is trying to say I shouldn't be upset or at least mislead me by using that technicality.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> Thanks. I think she knows those things are cheating, but I guess I shouldn't assume. What I think she does is tries to claim that as long as she hasn't had actual sex with a man I shouldn't complain. I think she uses it as a get out of jail free card to avoid admitting that she's been unfaithful. But yes its my worry that she did things short of actual sex and now is trying to say I shouldn't be upset or at least mislead me by using that technicality.


These kinds of women can manipulate the truth better than even the wiliest politician. Act accordingly.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> Thanks. I'd like to address some of this because it has me thinking. But at the same time I wonder if it applies to her. Overall I think it does. Using your numbering:
> 
> 1. I think my wife is outgoing sometimes, but other times she's kind of misanthropic. I guess she is social, she has a group she goes out with once a week or so. It's been part of our issues because I think these groups can be a bad influence.
> 
> ...


Dealing with these types of women is very tricky. This need for validation is a fundamental part of who they are, so trying to reverse it means you're messing with part of her core personality. You said yourself that she's been this way all her life.

The way to fight gaslighting is, first of all, to admit to yourself that something is not right. Gaslighters are experts at weaving a world of words around you so quickly that you don't even know how you got bamboozled, you just know that you did. Eventually you start to question your own good sense and wonder if you aren't making a big deal out of nothing. Don't give into that!

Much of her behavior is built on a foundation of murky definitions and technicalities involving what exactly is flirting, what exactly is being sexual, what exactly can she control or not. You have to knock that foundation out from under her, and it's really quite simple:
1) Stick to your guns about the way you feel. No matter how much she tries to argue or debate her way out of it, just simply respond with, "That may be how you see it, but it's not how I see it, and it hurts my feelings."
2) DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ALLOW YOURSELF TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THESE DEBATES. She is a far, far better manipulator of words than you are. DO NOT participate in these arguments where she's tries to justify her behavior by manipulating definitions on the fly. YOU WILL lose that battle!

Be prepared for lots of nastiness from her, which you've already seen. She will get worse. Like I said, you'll be bringing into question core parts of her personality, and she won't like it.

I would also demand a polygraph. You don't have to follow through with it, but play hardball and tell her without one, you're leaving her.

And there's the most important point: You need to be comfortable with the idea that your marriage may not work out. These types of women are some of the worst cake eaters, and they become nasty when someone tries to make them face reality. She'll blame the whole thing on you, rest assured.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> 3. My wife is very sexual in a way that is hard to understand. It isn't behavior so much as seems to come from within naturally. I saw it when we first met. That being said, sometimes she embraces it and other times she says she hates it and the attention it brings.


It's really not so hard to understand. These women are almost like actresses playing a role, with every look, step, article of clothing, even choice of words, chosen specifically to maximize their sexuality.

It's in the way they walk, how they steer conversations, what they say with their eyes, their body language, all that. These are one of the types of women that just ooze sex, only instead of using it on her H, she uses it on other men bc of the ego boost it gives her.


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## Jack29 (Oct 20, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> It's really not so hard to understand. These women are almost like actresses playing a role, with every look, step, article of clothing, even choice of words, chosen specifically to maximize their sexuality.
> 
> It's in the way they walk, how they steer conversations, what they say with their eyes, their body language, all that. These are one of the types of women that just ooze sex, only instead of using it on her H, she uses it on other men bc of the ego boost it gives her.


My ex used to bake macaroons because they look like vaginas! She used to say things such as "im focused on the aesthetics of my baking" appalling or funny?! I lean to the side of appalling!


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Davelli0331 said:


> It's really not so hard to understand. These women are almost like actresses playing a role, with every look, step, article of clothing, even choice of words, chosen specifically to maximize their sexuality.
> 
> It's in the way they walk, how they steer conversations, what they say with their eyes, their body language, all that. These are one of the types of women that just ooze sex, only instead of using it on her H, she uses it on other men bc of the ego boost it gives her.


I don't know about this one because it seems to go even beyond the things you describe. She doesn't seem to do anything blatant. When I met her I couldn't put my finger on it, but I felt it. Now I know other men do as well. I don't think anyone would be able to describe what she does because like I said it seems to come from within her. Not just clothes or words, but something else. I know I'm being vague but I really think she has something within that just causes men to react, and I felt it myself years ago. Even her friends react to it which is odd I think.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> I don't know about this one because it seems to go even beyond the things you describe. She doesn't seem to do anything blatant. When I met her I couldn't put my finger on it, but I felt it. Now I know other men do as well. I don't think anyone would be able to describe what she does because like I said it seems to come from within her. Not just clothes or words, but something else. I know I'm being vague but I really think she has something within that just causes men to react, and I felt it myself years ago. Even her friends react to it which is odd I think.


This is interesting. Is it choice of language? Interesting body language?


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is interesting. Is it choice of language? Interesting body language?


I really have no idea. I hope I'm not being unfair to her but I think it's an issue. But somehow it seems like it's more inherent than how she dresses, or some outward behavior. But she comes across as kind of "been there done that" when she really isn't like that in reality. I don't know that it's something she could change. What I do expect is that when she attracts some interest or attention, she handle it properly by acting like she's married, not single and free to do as she pleases.


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