# Son's apathy about school



## Tall Average Guy

My 12 year old son just does not seem to care about school. He routinely lies about having homework, often does not turn in the homework that he does (I can't tell you how often we have found it in his backpack that he takes to school), and waits until it is too late to fix things. 

I am sure part of this is normal lack of focus for a young boy. But nothing seems to spur him. He is very bright, but quite honestly lazy (not only in school, but most everything else). He tries to do less than the minimum, then works his way up from there. We have worked with him, tried to set up processes for him to remember to turn things in, encouraged his good behavior, punished him by taking away electronics, but nothing seems to work. The most recent event was learning that he will have failed band this last quarter because he did not do or turn in homework.

We are at a loss on what we can do to get him motivated. Thoughts or suggestions on what has worked for others would be greatly appreciated.


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## tacoma

Tall Average Guy said:


> My 12 year old son just does not seem to care about school. He routinely lies about having homework, often does not turn in the homework that he does (I can't tell you how often we have found it in his backpack that he takes to school), and waits until it is too late to fix things.
> 
> I am sure part of this is normal lack of focus for a young boy. But nothing seems to spur him. He is very bright, but quite honestly lazy (not only in school, but most everything else). He tries to do less than the minimum, then works his way up from there. We have worked with him, tried to set up processes for him to remember to turn things in, encouraged his good behavior, punished him by taking away electronics, but nothing seems to work. The most recent event was learning that he will have failed band this last quarter because he did not do or turn in homework.
> 
> We are at a loss on what we can do to get him motivated. Thoughts or suggestions on what has worked for others would be greatly appreciated.


Unsure where you are TAG but 12 years old is generally the age where there's the shift from elementary to middle school.
A lot of kids get hung up on the culture clash and it affects their work.

Has he switched grades/schools recently?
Is his behavior new or has he always been like this?


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## Tall Average Guy

tacoma said:


> Unsure where you are TAG but 12 years old is generally the age where there's the shift from elementary to middle school.
> A lot of kids get hung up on the culture clash and it affects their work.
> 
> Has he switched grades/schools recently?
> Is his behavior new or has he always been like this?


He did advance to middle school this year. We have not seen any changes in his personality, and he professes to love the new school (he was a bit nervous going in, but seems to have done well keeping some old friends as well as making some new ones).

This behavior is not entirely new. He has always lacked motivation to do anything extra, be it homework or other tasks, unless it is something he truly loves. The difference appears to be (to our eyes) that the consequences are now harsher. In elementary school, the teachers were more active in asking for homework and getting after him to do it or turn it in. Now, they ask once and then we only find out on-line when they post his grades.

To give a non-school example, he recently lost his mobile phone (we got it for free with the extra line) that we got him so that he could contact us regarding after school activities and timing. Upon realizing he lost it, he looked in two places, then threw up his hands and proclaimed it lost and that there was no further reason to look for it. Us informing him that he needs to pay for the replacement did not phase him. He was more interested in playing his computer games.


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## tacoma

Consequences is the only thing that comes to mind.

Aside from taking things from him what have you done that might affect a seriously bad outcome for him?

Have you shielded him from the consequences of not doing his homework/housework?
Fail to cover his ass a bit more often as far as helping/reminding him of his responsibilities.

I'm in no position to give advice here as I have two grown that fit your description perfectly and it isn't pretty.

Fix it if you can.

Hope someone comes along with better advice.


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## Tall Average Guy

tacoma said:


> Consequences is the only thing that comes to mind.
> 
> Aside from taking things from him what have you done that might affect a seriously bad outcome for him?


Grounding and loss of privileges have been used. The kids get to chose a restaurant if they make honor roll - he has missed out on that in the past. We are looking into additional chores, though I am not sure that makes sense.



> Have you shielded him from the consequences of not doing his homework/housework?
> Fail to cover his ass a bit more often as far as helping/reminding him of his responsibilities.


We have done both of these things somewhat. Over the past couple of years, we have given him a bit more latitude in getting a bad grade, including leaving it up to him to get his homework in. Frankly, he has abused that by lying about not having homework and/or turning it in.



> I'm in no position to give advice here as I have two grown that fit your description perfectly and it isn't pretty.
> 
> Fix it if you can.
> 
> Hope someone comes along with better advice.


Thanks for the questions and thoughts. I am at a loss, and see real issues. I was not the most motivated student, but was smart enough to be able to do well with little work. He could do the same, but has no interest in even doing the little work. I don't need full effort all the time, but something to show that he understands that this is starting to get important.


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## Leahdorus

OMG, I think we have the same son. I could have written your posts, exactly. My son is almost 12 and in the first year of middle school, and will do the bare minimum to get by in school, and most other things too. He's always been this way, so it's not a recent thing.

When we saw 2 F's on his online grades 2 weeks ago, right at conference time, we took away his iPod touch, and all other screens, until he got his grades up. I've challenged him to have zero late assignments this week; we'll see what happens. I am at a loss - both husband and I were good students without putting in a lot of effort, but we cared and wanted to do well. Son could easily get all B's if he just turned things in on time, or remembered to write his name on things. 

Eager to hear what others have to say. I suppose if he failed a class, he'd have to repeat it, and boy would that be embarrassing to him.


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## Tall Average Guy

Leahdorus said:


> OMG, I think we have the same son. I could have written your posts, exactly. My son is almost 12 and in the first year of middle school, and will do the bare minimum to get by in school, and most other things too. He's always been this way, so it's not a recent thing.
> 
> When we saw 2 F's on his online grades 2 weeks ago, right at conference time, we took away his iPod touch, and all other screens, until he got his grades up. I've challenged him to have zero late assignments this week; we'll see what happens. I am at a loss - both husband and I were good students without putting in a lot of effort, but we cared and wanted to do well. Son could easily get all B's if he just turned things in on time, or remembered to write his name on things.
> 
> Eager to hear what others have to say. I suppose if he failed a class, he'd have to repeat it, and boy would that be embarrassing to him.


I have though about that as well, yet am not convinced he would not just blow it off. The worst part is that the one other thing he truly loves is reading. Yet I can't bring myself to stop that.

How has the challenge to have zero late assignments worked so far? Do you make a big deal about it or have it be a secret deal between you and him?


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## mablenc

:
Do you think he might have ADD or ADHD?
Also, when my brothers were younger they played with the Nintendo so much they started struggling with school, sleep, and they seemed forgetful.

Does he have good friends or is he maybe trying to fit in with the wrong crowd? 

Is he sleeping enough hours, with that does he drink caffeinated drinks?

Are his eyes and hearing ok?

Is the classroom maybe too big 30 students.

Maybe he needs a change in routine perhaps more structure.

Small bodies growing are such a puzzle :scratchhead:


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## Leahdorus

Tall Average Guy said:


> I have though about that as well, yet am not convinced he would not just blow it off. The worst part is that the one other thing he truly loves is reading. Yet I can't bring myself to stop that.
> 
> How has the challenge to have zero late assignments worked so far? Do you make a big deal about it or have it be a secret deal between you and him?


This is the first week back after our spring break, so he's only on day 2 today. Last night I made the challenge at the dinner table. I figure I'll try breaking it down into smaller chunks, a week at a time, and see if that's easier for him. 

We've already said that if we see missing assignments in the online tool, he will lose screens until it's turned it and a grade is posted. We also have a reward system in place for quarterly report cards. If he got all A's, he gets $100. Haven't had to pay that out yet. Maybe for D or F, he'll have to pay us. Haven't had that happen yet - he's pulled his quarterly grades to Bs and Cs, and an A in PE so far this year.

He claims he cares, but doesn't really show it. He cares more about the social stuff, and posting on Instagram. I wish my son liked reading...


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## LovesHerMan

We had a terrible time with our daughter's attitude toward school. She struggled academically, and she has a rebel's personality coupled with Falstaffian laziness.

While nothing worked perfectly, here are some things that we did:

Asked all of her teachers to e-mail us the homework assignments so she could not lie about them.

Had her tested for dyslexia and other learning disabilities.

Engaged a tutor. A different adult eliminated the power struggle between parent and child.

Enrolled her in the school's gymnastic program. She was required to maintain a certain grade level to stay in the program. Although she loved gymnastics, unfortunately they did drop her from the program due to her poor grades. It was worth a try as a carrot, however.

We did not allow her to play computer games, watch TV, or talk on the phone until her homework was done.

It was exhausting, and I don't think our plan worked smoothly, but she did eventually get through college in 6 years. She has a very difficult personality, and we had to find ways to not trigger her rebellious nature.


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## mablenc

Also have you heard of Tony Hsieh. CEO of zappos? I read his auto biography he always tried to get by, by doing the minimum. He even recorded himself playing his instrument so his parents thought he was practicing for hours. Parents could not understand why he was such a bad player with so many hours of practice:rofl: . He is a very successful man.


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## LovesHerMan

mablenc said:


> Also have you heard of Tony Hsieh. CEO of zappos? I read his auto biography he always tried to get by, by doing the minimum. He even recorded himself playing his instrument so his parents thought he was practicing for hours. Parents could not understand why he was such a bad player with so many hours of practice:rofl: . He is a very successful man.


Yes, and Bill Gates dropped out of college, but those talented people are few and far between. For the rest of us average folks, we have to finish school and work to get a job that can support our families.


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## tacoma

Tall Average Guy said:


> How has the challenge to have zero late assignments worked so far? Do you make a big deal about it or have it be a secret deal between you and him?


I have noticed I have better luck getting things through to my daughter when her shortcomings aren't broadcasted to everyone.

Often when I'm able to make a "private arrangement" with her about certain responsibilities I have better success motivating her.


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## Tall Average Guy

mablenc said:


> :
> Do you think he might have ADD or ADHD?
> Also, when my brothers were younger they played with the Nintendo so much they started struggling with school, sleep, and they seemed forgetful.


Had not thought about the sleep issue. Perhaps we need to crack down on that (he tends to read at bed time and then "forget" to quit).



> Does he have good friends or is he maybe trying to fit in with the wrong crowd?


I don't think so. His friends are the same as elementary school and seem like good kids, though I won't pretend to know if there are other school influences I don't know about.



> Is he sleeping enough hours, with that does he drink caffeinated drinks?


No caffeinated drinks, but will work on the sleep.



> Are his eyes and hearing ok?


Hearing is okay but he does have vision problems. Have been dealing with this since birth, but he functions well (20/80 corrected) and has a plan with the school to make sure he gets the information and help he needs.

Honestly, I have difficulties linking not turning in homework that he has already done with his vision issues, but maybe that is my problem to get over.



> Is the classroom maybe too big 30 students.


Perhaps. I think his home room is about 20, but they they switch throughout the day for different subjects, with different kids from other home rooms.



> Maybe he needs a change in routine perhaps more structure.
> 
> Small bodies growing are such a puzzle :scratchhead:


Clearly the structure we have provided is not working, so I will think about that.


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## Tall Average Guy

tacoma said:


> I have noticed I have better luck getting things through to my daughter when her shortcomings aren't broadcasted to everyone.
> 
> Often when I'm able to make a "private arrangement" with her about certain responsibilities I have better success motivating her.


I will try this. While we have tried not to broadcast it, it can be difficult with younger siblings running around to keep it truly private.


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## unbelievable

This poor child has too many distractions, what with cell phones and computer games, TV, free time, trendy clothes, and all. His head isn't as large as an adult's, so it can't tolerate too much going on up in there all at one time. You have to make his homework easy for him to find by removing all that other clutter. I'd take the major distractions (TV, cell phone, computer) now just to make some space and to get his attention. Every time he "forgot" homework, some more clutter would get removed. When his room amounts to a mattress and four walls, homework will be easy to find. He'd have lots of time to look for it because he'd also be grounded. If he told me another bald faced lie, he wouldn't have any use for something to sit on anyway.


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## ATC529R

my grandma used to always so "boy, you want me to take a switch to your a$$"

that ALWAYS worked!


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## mablenc

lovesherman said:


> Yes, and Bill Gates dropped out of college, but those talented people are few and far between. For the rest of us average folks, we have to finish school and work to get a job that can support our families.


Well Tony is a bit different than bill gates, which is why I brought him up. Tony struggled as a kid too because he just did not like to do his homework he felt it was unnecessary also, he was a very distracted kid.


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## ATC529R

unbelievable said:


> This poor child has too many distractions, what with cell phones and computer games, TV, free time, trendy clothes, and all. His head isn't as large as an adult's, so it can't tolerate too much going on up in there all at one time. You have to make his homework easy for him to find by removing all that other clutter. I'd take the major distractions (TV, cell phone, computer) now just to make some space and to get his attention. Every time he "forgot" homework, some more clutter would get removed. When his room amounts to a mattress and four walls, homework will be easy to find. He'd have lots of time to look for it because he'd also be grounded. If he told me another bald faced lie, he wouldn't have any use for something to sit on anyway.


I laugh, but this works!!! I just did it with my 4 year old. TV went 1st, stuffed animals second, reminders typed on 8x11 paper posted in several rooms, and took the toys from her room. gradually of course when she had several bad days in a row.

she pays much more attention now!

she has a good day, she gets TV back, the next day stuffed animals, the next day we replace my signs with ones she wants to say etc, etc..... and positive reinforcement.

worked wonders, but I can be a bit over the top. :smthumbup:


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## Ikaika

ATC529R said:


> my grandma used to always so "boy, you want me to take a switch to your a$$"
> 
> that ALWAYS worked!


My father never threatened he just 'did', just because. It only works till you get old enough to just avoid 'said' parents and then go hang out with friends and get into no good. At 13 and beyond a little hard to take a switch to a 'kid'. 

Two things I think of when I think unmotivated. Either the work is too easy or too hard (he/she has no idea where to start). That is where I would start, figure this out first and work from there.


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## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> Two things I think of when I think unmotivated. Either the work is too easy or too hard (he/she has no idea where to start). That is where I would start, figure this out first and work from there.


My instinct is that it is too easy, as he has gotten good grades when he does do things (and I don't think it is just me being a father). Perhaps my wife and I need to challenge him at home more with school activities? Something to think about. Thanks.


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## mablenc

I have also seen a girl that was struggling enrolled to karate, it really helped her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Can we 'earn' time for his computer games? When our oldest was this age, she was terrible about turning in assignments. If we had reports from school advising work wasn't completed, she wasn't permitted her games. Once we had reports that the work was being done, she got time back. 

She lost her phone and had to do extra work around the house to earn a new one. 

It was a hard time for all of us and we had to make sure to communicate with her teachers each week but it was worth it! She finally realized it was easier to get with the program and graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

Maybe school's not for him. Or the type of school. I am, or will be when my kids are school age, a homeschooling/unschooling parent and I'm a trained Montessori teacher. 

I think the way subjects are taught in school is pretty ineffective for most kids. It's boring, chopped up into pieces, they have no agency or power - or very little, and the things they do like that can provide fantastic learning opportunities, such as music, reading and computer games are routinely rationed, and in the case of computer games, despised and forbidden.

Over the past week I have watched my six year old, completely under her own steam, write, address, stamp and post about 15 letters. I'm not telling her she has to practice writing an hour a day. I'm not making her sit at a table, forcing her to ask permission to go to the toilet, giving her 20 minutes a day 'free'. 

For her, writing letters is no different from watching tv, drawing pictures, being read to, riding her scooter, working out how many 3s are in 9, how much money she needed to buy a new book of stamps, playing with her toy farm with her sister, making a picture of a person with leaves and a puddle (this included learning about the pupil of the eye, how it was a hole covered with a clear lid that lets the light in). Everything I mentioned in that paragraph we did today. I'd say she learned at least as much as a child in school and it was joyful and effortless. 

You will probably be able to improve your son's school performance with a combination of rewards and punishments. But it's not going to make him a motivated, joyful learner. TBH, I think schools kind of suck. And I say that as a teacher.


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## Wiserforit

Tall Average Guy said:


> Us informing him that he needs to pay for the replacement did not phase him. He was more interested in playing his computer games.


self explanatory.




> Frankly, he has abused that by lying about not having homework and/or turning it in.


Lying. Wow. 

Agree with *lyris*. We're homeschooling. I see public schools as the antithesis of learning. Plus the horrible socialization.


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## Tall Average Guy

TCSRedhead said:


> Can we 'earn' time for his computer games? When our oldest was this age, she was terrible about turning in assignments. If we had reports from school advising work wasn't completed, she wasn't permitted her games. Once we had reports that the work was being done, she got time back.
> 
> She lost her phone and had to do extra work around the house to earn a new one.
> 
> It was a hard time for all of us and we had to make sure to communicate with her teachers each week but it was worth it! She finally realized it was easier to get with the program and graduated high school with a 3.5 GPA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for everyone's thoughts and input. My wife and I have been discussing (including some of the thoughts here), and have decided to do something like the above, with some modifications:

He currently has lost computer privileges not related to school. He can earn those back by turning in his homework next week.

We decided to go in one week chunks. Particularly in the beginning, I think it is unrealistic to expect him to handle a whole semester, so giving him realistic goals is best.

If he continues to not get this done, he will lose more privileges (television is next, then Legos, then his action figures/toys). 

We will not support him or support him less in his pursuits if he does show effort. For example, his band is traveling for a weekend to perform, then attend an amusement park. We have told him that based on his behavior in band to date, he needs to pay a large portion of that cost. If he shows real interest followed by real effort, we are happy to pick up a larger share or the whole cost.

He has to take on additional chores to pay for the phone.

Assigning him organizational homework. Part of his homework is getting his backpack and folders ready. I don't care how he does it, but it needs to be done. His "quizzes" for us will be quickly putting his hands on a particular assignment.

Lying automatically doubles any loss of privilege, and repeated lying will increase that even more. At 12, he is too old for corporal punishment. 

We don't think homeschooling is a viable alternative for us at this time. While our schools are generally excellent, I don't think they do well with respect to boys at this age, or for kids with maturity issues in general (though this is a subject for another day).

Thanks for you thoughts, and I will try to post periodically to provide results and get more feedback.


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## ATC529R

the whole "school too easy" for them is an easy out for the parents. thinking oh...my kids too smart. 

sorry, that jjust does not fly with me. If they were smart they would have common sense and know school is important.


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## Tall Average Guy

ATC529R said:


> the whole "school too easy" for them is an easy out for the parents. thinking oh...my kids too smart.
> 
> sorry, that jjust does not fly with me. If they were smart they would have common sense and know school is important.


It is not clear to me that book smart and common sense are the same, or that having one means having the other. I have seen to many brilliant engineers who have problems matching clothes or keeping track of time to think that.


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## ATC529R

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is not clear to me that book smart and common sense are the same, or that having one means having the other. I have seen to many brilliant engineers who have problems matching clothes or keeping track of time to think that.


they are different, but both should be taught.


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## norajane

My parents were immigrants, so had typical immigrant jobs in our neighborhood...my dad was a steelworker, and my mom worked in a lunchmeat plant. They continually reminded me that if I didn't study and do well in school, that I'd have those kinds of jobs to look forward to the rest of my life. It wasn't a "sit down and talk lesson"; it was more organic and part of everyday conversation. I heard them, and it worked. I hated how their uniforms smelled when they brought them home after work to wash.

Sorry, that probably doesn't help, but if your son has a goal of any kind, like wanting to be an astronaut or whatever, it's not a bad idea to mention that frequently. Astronauts don't flunk out of school and they aren't so focused on video games they get too lazy and "forget" homework.


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## LovesHerMan

Sounds like a good plan, TAG. You probably already know this, but give it plenty of time to take effect. Your son will test you, and you have to follow through with conviction.


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## Ikaika

ATC529R said:


> they are different, but both should be taught.


Best lesson taught are ones taught in the past where middle school was critical. If you didn't get good enough grades, you were tracked the moment you entered HS. 

Both of my Father and FIL, entered a job training program their freshman year in HS. Yes they got a diploma, but they started at age 14 working 40 - 60 hours/week. Their classmates attended school from 8am till 4pm studying more than playing. And, it was competition to stay there or enter a job program. 

When I went to school I started at 7:30 and did not get out till 3:40pm. There is not demand put on students nowadays. NONE. We give them everything and they go through life feeling privileged. I never had that... we coddle our youth. 

In a recent study where students were tested on some basic skills, US student (from good schools) did not even score in the top 25% when compared with their international competition. Yet, these same students score #1 when it came to feeling confident (Pew research center). We are building a generation of an emperor class without clothes. 

I told my sons they will get a cell phone when they can afford to buy one themselves. They have limited electronics because those are simply distractions.


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## ATC529R

drerio said:


> Best lesson taught are ones taught in the past where middle school is critical. If you don't get good enough grades, you are tracked the moment you enter HS.
> 
> Both of my Father and FIL, entered a job training program their freshman year in HS. Yes they got a diploma, but they started at age 14 working 40 - 60 hours/week. Their classmates attended school from 8am till 4pm studying more than playing. And, it was competition to stay there or enter a job program.
> 
> When I went to school I started at 7:30 and did not get out till 3:40pm. There is not demand put on students nowadays. NONE. We give them everything and they go through life feeling privileged. I never had that... we coddle our youth.
> 
> In a recent study where students were tested on some basic skills, US student (from good schools) did not even score in the top 25% when compared with their international competition. Yet, these same students score #1 when it came to feeling confident (PEW research poll). We are building a generation of an emperor class without clothes.
> 
> I told my sons they will get a cell phone when they can afford to buy one themselves. They have limited electronics because those are simply distractions.


VERY good post, and I could not agree more. I've had my share of threads about my teenage son who was raised by his mom & stepdad and me every other weekend. kid got everything handed too him, supposedly was too smart for his classes etc. I hammered him about the future (but it did not have much effect coming only sporadically)....now he's dropped out of college and is trying to find himself???

I have a 4 year now with my wife, so we're a long way off, but I am already starting to get rid of all the distractions and replacing them with more family focused and useful activities.


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## Tall Average Guy

lovesherman said:


> Sounds like a good plan, TAG. You probably already know this, but give it plenty of time to take effect. Your son will test you, and you have to follow through with conviction.


I expect that we will have to follow through. 

Part of my personal problem is that I too did not get it until sometime during seventh grade. I put in minimal effort, was smart enough to get mostly Bs with an occasional A, and just played all the time. Then suddenly, I realized the work I needed to do. So maybe this is all unneeded and he too will turn the corner on his own. But I am not willing to do nothing and just hope.


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## TCSRedhead

A lot of it is about preparing them for the not so distant future, where nothing is handed to you for free. 

This is why they had to earn everything somehow. Cell phones were a privilege. We started them with cheap prepaid plans that limited use. Once they started with jobs, we upgraded them but they had to pay for ones they lost.

Television/computer time was earned. If chores and homework weren't done, no go. Same with grades, if your grades were awful and the effort wasn't there, then you need to spend less time with friends and tv and more time studying. 

I won't lie - there were some really, really rough years and it took a lot of work for us to monitor and follow through on what we said we would do but I know how proud my oldest was when she graduated with that GPA. She's said now that she is glad we pushed her to do her best.


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## Wiserforit

drerio said:


> There is not demand put on students nowadays. NONE. We give them everything and they go through life feeling privileged. I never had that... we coddle our youth.
> 
> In a recent study where students were tested on some basic skills, US student (from good schools) did not even score in the top 25% when compared with their international competition. Yet, these same students score #1 when it came to feeling confident (Pew research center). We are building a generation of an emperor class without clothes.


God yes. 

If you actually walk through the schools and look at what they are doing in the classes - really pay attention - it's appalling. 

The football coach is teaching history by showing movies in classes. The basketball coach is teaching math but hasn't had math past the 8th grade himself. Everyone is learning American Exceptionalism though - we are the greatest country on earth, the light unto the world. Everyone wants to be us. 

Yet, American students ranked 25th in math, 17th in science and 14th in reading among 34 developed countries in a recent Harvard report on Educational Policy and Governance. 

The schools are police state prisons for the students, but open to any anti-depressant drugged boob to walk in and commit mass murder. As soon as he is done, watch how the student victims are marched out by swat teams with their hands on their heads. 

Cheating has become shockingly pervasive and accepted as a moral imperitive. Everywhere the students look it is hypocrisy, but they have no rights nor power to do anything about it. So of course you detach and skate by more concerned with entertainment than work.

Edit: I forgot to summarize that if your child is doing badly in a country that is performing so poorly, then you can place him with the children of Bangladesh or Somalia in terms of performance. Decades ago getting a high school education in the USA actually meant something whereas nowadays it is merely an attendance check. The standards are so low that people who _cannot even read _ are getting high school diplomas.


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## Lyris

I blame standardised testing. Which Australia introduced two years ago. In our grand tradition of watching something fail to work elsewhere for a decade before adopting it wholesale.

Sigh.

Next up, abstinence-only sex education! No better way to increase the teen pregnancy rate!


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## Bellavista

It is almost impossible to motivate someone who has no self-motivation. You can threaten, punish, threaten and punish in an endless cycle of frustration. All that will do is make you all develop resentment towards each other.

I have one unmotivated son, he is now 24 and has not developed anymore motivation than he had at 2. It frustrated the heck out of us, as his parents, but we have learnt to leave him to his own consequences. We have a younger son, 21, who is very self motivated, we never had to push him, the difference in where the 2 of them are is amazing.

I know none of that helps you, however, there is no magic button you can push to make your son become motivated, he just has to live out the consequences of his actions, and you have to hope it triggers him into changing. Whatever you do, just don't try to shield him from those consequences or he will never grow and learn. If it means he fails and repeats, so be it. If it means he has to do extra classes to catch up or he has to do less sport or music, that is his problem, not yours.


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## Mavash.

Bellavista said:


> It is almost impossible to motivate someone who has no self-motivation. You can threaten, punish, threaten and punish in an endless cycle of frustration. All that will do is make you all develop resentment towards each other.
> 
> I have one unmotivated son, he is now 24 and has not developed anymore motivation than he had at 2. It frustrated the heck out of us, as his parents, but we have learnt to leave him to his own consequences. We have a younger son, 21, who is very self motivated, we never had to push him, the difference in where the 2 of them are is amazing.
> 
> I know none of that helps you, however, there is no magic button you can push to make your son become motivated, he just has to live out the consequences of his actions, and you have to hope it triggers him into changing. Whatever you do, just don't try to shield him from those consequences or he will never grow and learn. If it means he fails and repeats, so be it. If it means he has to do extra classes to catch up or he has to do less sport or music, that is his problem, not yours.


This is how I've raised my kids from day 1 in school. I let consequences be the best teacher. Don't do the homework fine get a 0, get yelled at, repeat the grade, choice is theirs. I don't even bother to check their folders that's on them. I've trained them to ask for help instead of me jumping in to rescue them when they are failing. I don't punish, reward, threaten, nothing when it comes grades. Occasionally I will do something nice as kind of a I'm proud of you for working hard but that's it.

That said here are my stats. Oldest is an overachiever like me (6th grade). Middle is a daydreamer who for the longest time did just enough to get by but now in 4th grade she's hitting her stride and studies more. Her grades have improved and she did it on her own. My youngest also does just enough to get by but she will ask for help and expresses a desire to do better. Peer pressure gets her. Her best friend makes better grades than she does and she wants that. She's in first grade.


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## Tall Average Guy

Bellavista said:


> I know none of that helps you, however, there is no magic button you can push to make your son become motivated, he just has to live out the consequences of his actions, and you have to hope it triggers him into changing. Whatever you do, just don't try to shield him from those consequences or he will never grow and learn. If it means he fails and repeats, so be it. If it means he has to do extra classes to catch up or he has to do less sport or music, that is his problem, not yours.


I had a good and productive talk with him yesterday laying that out. Noting that we will support his involvement in activities and classes based on his interest and effort. He lost a lot of privileges yesterday afternoon after an incident, and we made clear that they need to be earned back one at a time. The consequences are on him. We will help him when asked, but it is up to him to ask us.

I also learned that he has a minor (at this point) bullying problem at school. Stupid stuff at the lunch table from one kid, where my son gets more (but not the majority) of the attention (cookies stolen, stuff put on his chair) this kid then others. Working with my son to defend himself and assuring him that we will back him a 1000% if anything occurs. I know the parents, and let's just say the apple does not fall far from the tree.


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## Wiserforit

Tall Average Guy said:


> .
> 
> I also learned that he has a minor (at this point) bullying problem at school.


Excellent. I was going to say that you really need to ASK him about everything going on in school. Because there is a lot wrong with our schools in general, and kids are basically prisoners with no rights. Some kids hate school for good reasons and having their grievances addressed by parents can help.


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## Tall Average Guy

Wiserforit said:


> Excellent. I was going to say that you really need to ASK him about everything going on in school. Because there is a lot wrong with our schools in general, and kids are basically prisoners with no rights. Some kids hate school for good reasons and having their grievances addressed by parents can help.


This is something we are monitoring very carefully. It does not seem like a big problem, but our plan is to ask about it consistently to see if we get consistent answers. We are also continuing to ask follow up questions to see how he is doing and what he needs from us as far as support in this. We want to help him and not make things worse.

This weekend was good. Had some great family time with him, and on one homework project he really took some ownership. It is helpful to see a good positive step, even if I know we will have some bad steps too.


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## Wiserforit

One reason my brother yanked his kids out of the public schools was that the homework and projects were so obviously idiotic. 

They were building a mock African village out of popsicle sticks for example, and his son protested that he could learn more in five minutes of reading than all day doing this project, and the Africans they were studying did not build their houses out of popsicle sticks. 

For saying so, he was kept after school in detention. They wanted to put him on Ridilyn for "acting out". That was the last straw for them. After homeschooling he went to college on full scholarship and double majored in engineering and music. Worked for two years, and is now back in grad school.


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## Holland

This is of no use now OP but may be of interest to others. Our kids have been through the Montessori system since age 2, it is a great educational style that encourages a love of learning in the students. The results for my kids and the ones around us is that they are passionate about education and their futures. Montessori is child led and a very respectful style of education where each child learns at their own rate. They are not set up for failure as they are in standardised educational systems where all children are expected to be at the same work level and learn in the same way.

It would have been something that would have benefited me as a child as I really hated school. This came from an episode in early Primary where the teacher stood me up in front of the class and belittled me. Since that day I lost interest in school, I am intelligent but simply did not want to be there.


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## Tall Average Guy

Holland said:


> This is of no use now OP but may be of interest to others. Our kids have been through the Montessori system since age 2, it is a great educational style that encourages a love of learning in the students. The results for my kids and the ones around us is that they are passionate about education and their futures. Montessori is child led and a very respectful style of education where each child learns at their own rate. They are not set up for failure as they are in standardised educational systems where all children are expected to be at the same work level and learn in the same way.


I have seen it work for many students. I have also seen it not work for some who do need more structure. But I think it is a good to have that option.



> It would have been something that would have benefited me as a child as I really hated school. This came from an episode in early Primary where the teacher stood me up in front of the class and belittled me. Since that day I lost interest in school, I am intelligent but simply did not want to be there.


Not clear to me that a Montessori style would fix having a [email protected] for a teacher. No child should have to go through that.


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## Holland

Tall Average Guy said:


> I have seen it work for many students. I have also seen it not work for some who do need more structure. But I think it is a good to have that option.
> 
> 
> 
> *Not clear to me that a Montessori style would fix having a [email protected] for a teacher. No child should have to go through that.*


From the POV that Monty is child led and the kids work at their own pace. I got the worst grade for a test which is what the teacher stood me up in front of the class for. This sort of thing would not happen in a Monty classroom because it is not standardised education.

Anyway I hope you get your situation sorted, it is something that would really worry me if my kids were not interested in school.


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## Tall Average Guy

A quick update - 

A couple of minor lapses, but some big strides of improvement. I am hopeful, but it has been a short time, so will see if it lasts.

One thing of note is that I think we short-changed him on getting exercise. In losing many of his privileges, it has forced him to find new things to do in his spare time. Getting outside to play has been one of them, and I think it has been a benefit. We will likely keep restrictions on his indoor activities to keep from falling back into his old habits.


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## Tall Average Guy

Well, I get to share a positive success. Yesterday, we walked to the store as a family. On the way back, the neighbor kids invite my two oldest to play in the backyard for a bit (it was about 30 minutes before the younger one starts the process of getting ready for bed). My daughter (who is younger and seems ideally suited for the school experience) went to play because she was done with her homework. My son did not go, because he told us, on his own, that he still had some homework that he needed to get done.

My wife and I were both very pleased and let him know. He has not been perfect, and we don't expect that he will be. But this was a big deal for us, because he would not have done that in the past.


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## mablenc

That's great to hear
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Yay - that's great progress!


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## Tall Average Guy

Another update - 

He finished 6th grade, with As and Bs and one C+. Interestingly, he tested into an advance class where he got the C+ - his grade is a reflection on his turning in his homework. These are an improvement, as is overall engagement. It helped that he won a couple of awards in some classes where he did well. I think that success will breed success here.

He is also have less problems with a couple of kids. They were bullying him a bit, but have stopped as he escalated standing up to them (culminating in his hitting one in the hand when that kid tried to grab his food at lunch). I think that has helped as well.

For us, getting him off electronics (TV, computer, games) and getting him exercise seemed to be the two biggest helps. We plan to continue this through the summer and hope it continues next year.


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## TCSRedhead

That's awesome!!!! Congratulations!!!


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## turnera

Great update. I would also add, at this age, that you might look into getting him involved in some sort of ... apprenticeship in something that he cares about. My DD22 is the laziest of lazies...except when it comes to psychology. She'll read textbooks for fun, find every website in the world to learn more about it.

Figure out what his passion is, and then help him find a way to engage in it. Once he's 'hooked,' getting to keep participating in it will give him more drive to get the other stuff done as well.


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## Tall Average Guy

turnera said:


> Great update. I would also add, at this age, that you might look into getting him involved in some sort of ... apprenticeship in something that he cares about. My DD22 is the laziest of lazies...except when it comes to psychology. She'll read textbooks for fun, find every website in the world to learn more about it.
> 
> Figure out what his passion is, and then help him find a way to engage in it. Once he's 'hooked,' getting to keep participating in it will give him more drive to get the other stuff done as well.


He loves computer games, so I am heading out this weekend to get him some books on computer programming and developing his own games. I hope that can get him excited.


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## turnera

DD22's friend was always interested in horror films, and he's been going to college for a film making degree. Along the way, he met different people making different films, animated and real life. He's ended up doing voice overs for animated films and commercials now, and he's developed a small career acting in local horror films! And this kid has Asperger's!

You just never know where such interests will lead you.

That's great, to show him what's out there in terms of getting to do what he loves. Just make sure you sit down with him and learn it alongside.


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## Tall Average Guy

turnera said:


> That's great, to show him what's out there in terms of getting to do what he loves. Just make sure you sit down with him and learn it alongside.


That is part of the plan. The other is to show him how school right now can help him do what he wants to do. Make what he is doing now a little more real.


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## VermisciousKnid

Tall Average Guy said:


> Another update -
> 
> 
> He is also have less problems with a couple of kids. They were bullying him a bit, but have stopped as he escalated standing up to them (culminating in his hitting one in the hand when that kid tried to grab his food at lunch). I think that has helped as well.


That's great news about the bullying issue. Being able to stand up for himself is very empowering. But I would also let the Principal know that it has been going on since he could be the one getting in trouble if there's a physical altercation and he's the one who gets called out.


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## LoveAtDaisys

I see this is mostly resolved, but wanted to add in one last "carrot" for any parents that might read this thread in the future:

My parents paid my brother and I for grades, in lieu of an allowance. $10 for an A, $5 for a B, $2 for a C, and nothing for D's and F's. This was our only way to earn pocket money, other than brithday/holiday money from family or getting a job/doing odd jobs for neighbors. It worked fairly well for us.


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## Thundarr

Tall Average Guy said:


> My 12 year old son just does not seem to care about school. He routinely lies about having homework, often does not turn in the homework that he does (I can't tell you how often we have found it in his backpack that he takes to school), and waits until it is too late to fix things.
> 
> I am sure part of this is normal lack of focus for a young boy. But nothing seems to spur him. He is very bright, but quite honestly lazy (not only in school, but most everything else). He tries to do less than the minimum, then works his way up from there. We have worked with him, tried to set up processes for him to remember to turn things in, encouraged his good behavior, punished him by taking away electronics, but nothing seems to work. The most recent event was learning that he will have failed band this last quarter because he did not do or turn in homework.
> 
> We are at a loss on what we can do to get him motivated. Thoughts or suggestions on what has worked for others would be greatly appreciated.


You just gave a scary accurate description of my oldest son at that age. The good news is my son is now in his mid twenties, well educated, works hard and makes good money, and has a wonderful wife and four kids, and is mentally and physically healthy and happy. The bad news is you have some years of frustration ahead of you.

My son was on and off of groundings from 12-18 and I was constantly taking away priviledges which I HATED. It seemed like he didn't even mind it but all I knew to do was talk to him and apply consequences. Of course we tried ADHD medication for a bit and he was even on proxac shortly but those were just "let's try and see" things that didn't help. We didn't let him get his license until he was over 17 even though he could have gotten a permit at 15 in our state. This was because he wouldn't keep his grades up. 

So he started his senior year with a full class load instead of getting to take it easy because he had to make up a couple of failed classes to get enough credits. Started his senior year and skipped a few days of school so I took away the Jeep and drove him to and from school every day until the xmas break was over. That's when I sat him down and explained that his choices were his consequences as honest as possible. No safety net. I actually kicked him out of the house a month later for 6 weeks because he wouldn't follow the rules ( left tobacco spit bottles in the house over and over ). He was a different kid after that 6 weeks. He got his act together and passed every class, started technical college but after marrying his girlfriend decided to join the Marines, got extensive electronics education and experience, picked up Sergeant in one enlistment which is not very common, served his 5 years and landed a nice job back at home ( 15 minutes from me ). 

Kids are all different. We had completely different challenges with our other two but the common theme that seemed to work with all of them was for us to try to know what's right and then always do what we think is right ( no it's not obvious ). By that I mean never avoid doing what you think is right because feels bad. Parents who live by emotion rather than logic cripple their kids so often.


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## Tall Average Guy

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I see this is mostly resolved, but wanted to add in one last "carrot" for any parents that might read this thread in the future:
> 
> My parents paid my brother and I for grades, in lieu of an allowance. $10 for an A, $5 for a B, $2 for a C, and nothing for D's and F's. This was our only way to earn pocket money, other than brithday/holiday money from family or getting a job/doing odd jobs for neighbors. It worked fairly well for us.


We did a version of this with school trips. His band went to performance contest a month ago. Afterwards, they went to an amusement park, for a total cost of about $60 (food, tickets, transportation, etc.). Because of his grades, I required that he pay for half. I told him flat out that if he was not going to show any interest in the class (his grades were due to him not turning in his homework), then I don't see why I should be required to pay for stuff like this. I was happy to support him in activities he truly showed an interest in, but since he did not, I would not pay for him. That was perhaps the first time I thought I had really gotten through to him.

Perhaps the best part is that he started to address problems himself. He lost his sheet music for his last band grade. He talked to the teacher on his own, got it, and then performed the solo for the teacher to get his grade (yes, it was a couple days later than I would have preferred, but I love that he did it himself). Like I said, small steps.


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## Tall Average Guy

VermisciousKnid said:


> That's great news about the bullying issue. Being able to stand up for himself is very empowering. But I would also let the Principal know that it has been going on since he could be the one getting in trouble if there's a physical altercation and he's the one who gets called out.


The Vice Principle is aware, so it looks to be covered. The bully is having family issues himself, so he is already on the radar.


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## HeartbrokenW

LoveAtDaisys said:


> My parents paid my brother and I for grades, in lieu of an allowance. $10 for an A, $5 for a B, $2 for a C, and nothing for D's and F's.


My daughter also receives her allowance via quarterly grades - $10 for every A, period. Nothing for anything less. It's worked wonders. She went from C avg to almost all A's. 

Another little secret.. we instilled a love of reading in her by extending bedtime 30 mins.. Bedtime was 8, but she could read until 8:30. We started this early, 1st grade, if I recall. She LOVES to read. This year during testing, her reading comprehension was at a 12th grade level.. and she just finished 7th grade.


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