# Me (32m)- wife (29f) addicted to reading romance novels -- I need advice badly...



## Overzealous11

Married 7 years with boys 8 and 4. Pardon the inept stream of consciousness that follows.....


I am a working professional with great job, and she just graduated nursing school. Started working at a hospital 3 months ago. Nursing school for me, was rough enough, and I was extremely supportive in any way I could be. Cooking cleaning and keeping her focused on studies and tests while I worked and ran the house. Anyone who has seen a nurse graduate knows the time and effort it takes for those men and women


I am so proud of her living her dream after raising our children to school age. She is a wonderful woman mother and now RN.
In my non-medical background opinion, she has always been addicted to some form of media...and it has been a point of contention most of our marriage.


When she stayed at home, much of her day consisted of simply watching crappy TV and neglecting the house. This evolved into surfing on our laptop while laundry and chores piled up weekly. 
I would be the instigator of doing routine chores like dishes, laundry, and normal cleaning. Internet history would reveal hours each day on YouTube loops watching Dawson's creek snips and things of the like. She got into Facebook loops and just overall Internet surfing for hours daily.


This cycle has been the instigator of many arguments, brought on almost exclusively by me. As up until 3 months ago, I have been the sole provider for our family. Purchased a modest home and newer cars while remaining debt free (mortgage and 1 car note)

Recently this year it came to a head. The owner of my company sent 20 of our employees and spouses to an inclusive resort in the Dominican Republic. The first real eye opening event occurred when I asked of she would walk with me to the beach. 
Granted, this was our first time out of the country and no kids!! She says no, that she would rather read her Kindle by the pool. It may seem minor, but my feeling were hurt. Choosing a Kindle romance novel over savoring a memory making, once in a life time experience, of being with your husband best friend lover at a tropical resort....holding hands and looking into the sea would have been perfect, seeing as how I had proposed on a beach 8 years prior, but I digress.


Since that time (March) the reading of nook books has become increasingly worse. Specifically the few months...
Every day off (4 a week) she does nothing but read all day. She will do as little as possible around the house, and purchases 1-3 books per day. It's not the cost that bothers me, it's the subject matter and expecting me to oick up household slack . If I sat in front of the kids and watched porn with a plot, ignored her and house.. and did this daily - I would assume most ladies would take some issue.
I have access to her library and 90 percent of the books contain explicit sex. Like all the books are some 50 shades spin off type crap. I AM NO PRUDE...love me some dirty porn with her and without her. My problem lies in the fact that these books are consuming her - causing me to feel neglected and spilling over into our marriage and life. I get home and have to cook clean get kids ready while she sits inches from her screen and eyes. This has all been conveyed to her...


I have expressed to her since our trip how I feel this is an attack on our marriage and she blows it off completely. I sent her sent her articles and she tells me I am being ridiculous. Does not take what I am saying seriously at all. I am constantly hurt almost daily and it shows. No matter what I say or how hard I try - neither her behavior - nor my feelings are changing towards this topic. I have yelled cried pouted talked spoken written stormed around ignored her and now feel like counseling. ..


I feel insecure about our relationship and marriage of she feels she needs to retreat during all waking hours to a fantasy world where the guy is ripped and intriguing and the sex is part of every book ( I am average build witty as hell and have a semi sordid past enough to be interesting compared to most I think, no porn star but hold my own on kissing foreplay and positions)


So I have retreated to the Internet as my outlet. She goes to bed early only to fall asleep with the damn phone inches from her face. I surf and surf only to become me resentful. Found some subreddits and said effit, I am going to put this out there and see what feedback follows.
Looking for any replies, could use some serious and, some no, to liven my spirits and bring perspective. 

Really want to know if anyone has experienced anything similar.
Always thought this was a problem not specific to the ages we are currently in.


7 year Anniversary night was surprising and romantic for her. Went all out to welcome her home from her shift with a vegetarian sexy meal with Brazilian jazz playing candles lit and great sex. Flowers candy balloons chocolate covered strawberries and moscato champagne....to wake up alone in bed to find her in the garage on her phone reading at 3am. I stormed out the following morning wondering how will I ever compete with these books.



That was 5 days ago...and after me explaining why my feelings were hurt, she still does not see it.?

I am off this coming week, and am almost dreading the silence of her on her phone, smirking and smiling while I am around.

Any words are appreciated. Thank you in advance.


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## SecondTime'Round

Any activity that takes up more time than time she's investing into her relationship with you is too much. For example, if your "thing" was that she was going out with girlfriends....yes, it's a problem if she's spending more time doing that than on date nights with you. This is my philosophy anyway. Add to that the content of these novels, it's worse. She's an addict! 3AM reading in the garage??? And she reads these on her phone? She must have great vision.


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## Blondilocks

Wow, she is totally absorbed with that trash. Why don't you not cook or clean. She gets 4 days off a week and is unable to feed her own family or clean? Hell no.

When she is absorbed while you're supposed to be cooking, sit down beside her and pull up the raunchiest porn you can find. A couple "Oh, Baby" remarks should get her attention.

Marriage Counseling is probably your best bet because she ain't gettin' it. Next time she blows off your concerns, irritations and pain just flat out say "I'm filing for divorce" and walk away. The ball will be in her court.


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## Dude007

I hate to say this but i believe she is bored and regrets the life she has chosen. The kids, husband, and now career seem so "American dream" and yet so damn boring. The novels are an escape. I think you should continue to press hard on her to abandon these novels or she may up and leave some day. I'm not joking. Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

@Eagle3

E3 dealt with this, too, OP. He may have some suggestions for you.


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## EleGirl

I agree that this is probably about her realizing that she's got it all and done it all now.... and it's mind numbing boring. It's about the same sort of situation when a man turns to porn and let's it interferer with his relationship with is wife. Not any different really.

If I were you, right now I would not say a word about the books. Why? Because it's easy to make you the bad guy for not wanting her to read a book.. come on a book! I can hear it now.

Instead make a big deal out of what the big deal really is... she does not do her 50% responsibility for household chores, taking care of the children, etc. She also has abandoned your relationship.

There are a few things that you can do. You cannot change her. What you can do is to make unilateral changes. These will force her to change. You will have no control over how she changes. But she will change... hopefully for the better.

So what do you change? It's a 180 (not the link in my signature block below). You change the things you do to be completely opposite of your normal behavior that she expects. It might take her a bit, but she will notice. And once she notices, you will have her attention.

And no this is not a game. It's not a ploy. You are part of the problem here. You allowed her to become this way... by you taking on all the responsibility, you taught her that this is how you want to be treated. You taught her that you will do everything and she can do whatever she chooses... oddly this is a form of abandoning her.. I will bet that she would say that you have... despite your verbal protestations.

What 180 things can you do?

Stop doing anything that you do for her... if you do her laundry... do not hers. She can do her laundry. Do not put her cloths away. If they are in the dryer and you need it, throw her cloths on her side of the bed. She will have to deal with them before bed... or just throw them on the laundry room floor or put them in the dirty cloths again (believe me that gets someone's attention). If she complains, just say something like: "I'm exhausted and just did not have time to deal with it."

Any of your children who are 10 yrs old or older can do their own laundry. I trained my 3 at age 10. I've never done their laundry since.. they are now in their late 20's.

Now you are only doing your own laundry and that of small children.

Do not every cook for her again... not until she starts doing 50% of the cooking.

If you go out for a meal, do it only with the children. If you order takeout or delivery, order only for you and the kids. If she complains, just say: "Oh I just got something for the kids. They were hungry. (ignore that you got your food too).

If she leaves things laying about, put a basket by her side of the room and just throw the stuff she leaves around in it.

And... you starting doing things for yourself. On her days off, you start going out to work out, to visit friends, anything.. just leave her to take care of the children so you can take care of yourself.

The book Divorce Busting talks about this. There is a chapter about how changing the environment will change the relationship. She expects you to behave as you have been for years. She expects you to take care of her and everything else. She expects that you will pursue her, beg her, etc. That's very unattractive behavior. So stop it. Start focusing on yourself and ignoring her. She will then need to pursue you to try to return the relationship to the status quo. That is when you will have the leverage to fix your marriage.

If the 180 (as described above) does not work, then it's time to completely destabilize with relationship. Basically, that's when you tell her that either she gets back into the family and your relationship, she goes to marriage counseling with you to work on it, and she limits her reading to x hours a week (or she gives it up) or you are filing for divorce. If she does not respond positively within 2-3 days, have her served and divorce her. 

Sometimes being served divorce papers is a huge wakeup call to people.. to the most obtuse ones who do not get it long before that.

Some people never get it.

She will not wake up until YOU change.


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## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> Wow, she is totally absorbed with that trash. Why don't you not cook or clean. She gets 4 days off a week and is unable to feed her own family or clean? Hell no.
> 
> When she is absorbed while you're supposed to be cooking, sit down beside her and pull up the raunchiest porn you can find. A couple "Oh, Baby" remarks should get her attention.
> 
> Marriage Counseling is probably your best bet because she ain't gettin' it. Next time she blows off your concerns, irritations and pain just flat out say "I'm filing for divorce" and walk away. The ball will be in her court.


I actually tried the porn thing one night, but I felt weird and it was a lost cause she was so into her book. It was the most awkward porn watching ever....revenge porn watching?! 

I can't say that today, I would threaten to file divorce over this. But I always try to project out to the future, and don't see this changing - making me feel ignored, unappreciated, and resentful....leading me to supplement somehow.


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## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> I agree that this is probably about her realizing that she's got it all and done it all now.... and it's mind numbing boring. It's about the same sort of situation when a man turns to porn and let's it interferer with his relationship with is wife. Not any different really.
> 
> If I were you, right now I would not say a word about the books. Why? Because it's easy to make you the bad guy for not wanting her to read a book.. come on a book! I can hear it now.
> 
> Instead make a big deal out of what the big deal really is... she does not do her 50% responsibility for household chores, taking care of the children, etc. She also has abandoned your relationship.
> 
> There are a few things that you can do. You cannot change her. What you can do is to make unilateral changes. These will force her to change. You will have no control over how she changes. But she will change... hopefully for the better.
> 
> So what do you change? It's a 180 (not the link in my signature block below). You change the things you do to be completely opposite of your normal behavior that she expects. It might take her a bit, but she will notice. And once she notices, you will have her attention.
> 
> And no this is not a game. It's not a ploy. You are part of the problem here. You allowed her to become this way... by you taking on all the responsibility, you taught her that this is how you want to be treated. You taught her that you will do everything and she can do whatever she chooses... oddly this is a form of abandoning her.. I will bet that she would say that you have... despite your verbal protestations.
> 
> What 180 things can you do?
> 
> Stop doing anything that you do for her... if you do her laundry... do not hers. She can do her laundry. Do not put her cloths away. If they are in the dryer and you need it, throw her cloths on her side of the bed. She will have to deal with them before bed... or just throw them on the laundry room floor or put them in the dirty cloths again (believe me that gets someone's attention). If she complains, just say something like: "I'm exhausted and just did not have time to deal with it."
> 
> Any of your children who are 10 yrs old or older can do their own laundry. I trained my 3 at age 10. I've never done their laundry since.. they are now in their late 20's.
> 
> Now you are only doing your own laundry and that of small children.
> 
> Do not every cook for her again... not until she starts doing 50% of the cooking.
> 
> If you go out for a meal, do it only with the children. If you order takeout or delivery, order only for you and the kids. If she complains, just say: "Oh I just got something for the kids. They were hungry. (ignore that you got your food too).
> 
> If she leaves things laying about, put a basket by her side of the room and just throw the stuff she leaves around in it.
> 
> And... you starting doing things for yourself. On her days off, you start going out to work out, to visit friends, anything.. just leave her to take care of the children so you can take care of yourself.
> 
> The book Divorce Busting talks about this. There is a chapter about how changing the environment will change the relationship. She expects you to behave as you have been for years. She expects you to take care of her and everything else. She expects that you will pursue her, beg her, etc. That's very unattractive behavior. So stop it. Start focusing on yourself and ignoring her. She will then need to pursue you to try to return the relationship to the status quo. That is when you will have the leverage to fix your marriage.
> 
> If the 180 (as described above) does not work, then it's time to completely destabilize with relationship. Basically, that's when you tell her that either she gets back into the family and your relationship, she goes to marriage counseling with you to work on it, and she limits her reading to x hours a week (or she gives it up) or you are filing for divorce. If she does not respond positively within 2-3 days, have her served and divorce her.
> 
> Sometimes being served divorce papers is a huge wakeup call to people.. to the most obtuse ones who do not get it long before that.
> 
> Some people never get it.
> 
> She will not wake up until YOU change.



I read this 3 times. Thank you for the strong advice, I will be taking it into action over my week long vacation....

There is an online PDF, called No More Mr. Nice Guy, and I am reading up on that as well. The same user from another forum gave me that advice, as well as to come to this sit for more advice.


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## Overzealous11

Dude007 said:


> I hate to say this but i believe she is bored and regrets the life she has chosen. The kids, husband, and now career seem so "American dream" and yet so damn boring. The novels are an escape. I think you should continue to press hard on her to abandon these novels or she may up and leave some day. I'm not joking. Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope that's not totally the case, but it could be possible. I have noticed a change since she graduated and got her job. And I admit, that with both of us following our dream jobs - that we are becoming different people - which is not totally for the worse, or surprising. 

The fight over the novels has been beaten dead for months, it's now bled into escaping our life. Wish me luck.


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> @Eagle3
> 
> E3 dealt with this, too, OP. He may have some suggestions for you.


Thanks for the tag.


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## Blondilocks

When you file for divorce, you don't have to go through with it. Actually, just the statement may make her come to her senses.

How do you intend to get her to take you seriously? Maybe if you iron her clothes she'll put down the book. Stop enabling her to take advantage of you. She needs to check back into the marriage before you supplement. BTW, that is a really bad idea.


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## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> I actually tried the porn thing one night, but I felt weird and it was a lost cause she was so into her book. It was the most awkward porn watching ever....revenge porn watching?!
> 
> I can't say that today, I would threaten to file divorce over this. But I always try to project out to the future, and don't see this changing - making me feel ignored, unappreciated, and resentful....leading me to supplement somehow.


Please wait until you talk to Eagle3. He dealt with a very similar situation two years ago, and their marriage is thriving today. He turned things around quickly once he tapped into her needs.

He should be back Monday. He takes the weekends off.


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## jld

OP, try reading Eagle's thread in the meantime. @Anon Pink helped him a lot. 

Eagle is a wonderful man. I am sure he will help you in any way he can, as soon as he arrives on Monday. Hang in there!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/147898-finally-had-talk-dont-know-where-end-up.html


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## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> When you file for divorce, you don't have to go through with it. Actually, just the statement may make her come to her senses.
> 
> How do you intend to get her to take you seriously? Maybe if you iron her clothes she'll put down the book. Stop enabling her to take advantage of you. She needs to check back into the marriage before you supplement. BTW, that is a really bad idea.


I will take that advice seriously, the papers would be a huge statement. Feeling isolated, and craving attention.


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> OP, try reading Eagle's thread in the meantime. @Anon Pink helped him a lot.
> 
> Eagle is a wonderful man. I am sure he will help you in any way he can, as soon as he arrives on Monday. Hang in there!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/147898-finally-had-talk-dont-know-where-end-up.html


About to click and read. I really appreciate you, and everyone for the swift replies and advice...be back after I read and scroll..


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## Overzealous11

Overzealous11 said:


> About to click and read. I really appreciate you, and everyone for the swift replies and advice...be back after I read and scroll..


That is quite the read.
I will have to marinate on how it compares to my situation.

Hopefully Eagle comes back Monday with some enlightening words.


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## jld

_*Like all the books are some 50 shades spin off type crap. *_

This is the key, hon. This is what Eagle tapped into and what you need to, too. Like Anon Pink suggested to Eagle in his thread, you need to read her books and tap into her fantasies. 

Believe me, if you do it right, you won't have any more troubles with her cleaning the house!  And your sex life will be white hot!


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## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> If I were you, right now I would not say a word about the books. Why? Because it's easy to make you the bad guy for not wanting her to read a book.. come on a book! I can hear it now.
> 
> Instead make a big deal out of what the big deal really is... she does not do her 50% responsibility for household chores, taking care of the children, etc. She also has abandoned your relationship.


The bad thing is, I have made a big deal about not splitting the house duties 50% for years on end. They are the number one cause of our fights, instigated almost exclusively by me. 

Though a year or two ago, I realized one day that it was her addiction to these various outlets, that caused her to ignore our houses hold duties. (note i did not say wifely duties, as i think both men and women need to actively be involved with cleanliness around the house) Her days would be spend on in these internet loops....and when i did have this epiphany, I immediately shared it with her --- to no future success. Fast forward to this year, and it's simply a different outlet/medium.

Would love to hear feedback on that


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## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> That is quite the read.
> I will have to marinate on how it compares to my situation.
> 
> Hopefully Eagle comes back Monday with some enlightening words.


I tagged AP, too, so I hope she will come by tonight or tomorrow morning. She is so helpful. Her advice helped turn around Eagle's marriage. It is so good now. Hard to believe he was afraid it might end back then, too.

I have lots of hope for you, OP. I think you are in for a lot of fun, and a sizzlingly passionate marriage!


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## happy as a clam

This is an addiction, not unlike gaming, gambling, or porn.

Not to mention the money she is wasting on all these books.

Cancel the Internet and get her into a 12-step program.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Overzealous11

happy as a clam said:


> This is an addiction, not unlike gaming, gambling, or porn.
> 
> Not to mention the money she is wasting on all these books.
> 
> Cancel the Internet and get her into a 12-step program.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not the money at all! She is for the most part a frugal lady (awesome), and does not spurge on herself. Early in our marriage when we were broke, she was always up on finances and making every penny count. She retains that mentality even with two decent incomes (awesome)

Yes it is an addiction - and a distortion of our combined and individual realities..

Perhaps I will "accidentally" disconnect the internet, and see what ensues. I'm torn.


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> I tagged AP, too, so I hope she will come by tonight or tomorrow morning. She is so helpful. Her advice helped turn around Eagle's marriage. It is so good now. Hard to believe he was afraid it might end back then, too.
> 
> I have lots of hope for you, OP. I think you are in for a lot of fun, and a sizzlingly passionate marriage!


Really thankful for your positive energy!


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## jld

OP, what do you think about going to your wife right now and telling her if she does not put her kindle down and get whatever job you have most recently asked her to do done within the next 20 minutes (say vacuuming or loading the dishwasher or whatever), you are going to give her a spanking?


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> _*Like all the books are some 50 shades spin off type crap. *_
> 
> This is the key, hon. This is what Eagle tapped into and what you need to, too. Like Anon Pink suggested to Eagle in his thread, you need to read her books and tap into her fantasies.
> 
> Believe me, if you do it right, you won't have any more troubles with her cleaning the house!  And your sex life will be white hot!


The reason why Eagle's entire thread does not resonate with me, is that the sex is totally there. She has a great sex drive, and I cannot be more thankful for that. One touch and she is ready. I am so lucky for that. And can orgasm through any means PIV or POV...

However, I have come to resent these books, youtube/tv snippets, celebrity yahoo news....over the years -- that even thinking about having to read this stuff just for her to engage in real life makes the opposite of sense; to me personally. Engage in escapism to rediscover realism is hard for me to swallow. Not impossible, just hard.

And I have seen some crazy decent porn since the internet expanded, but I have not disengaged in our real life, family/marraige due to what I have seen...

Again, I will be marinating hard on all of this. Thank you for challenging my current state of mind.


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## Voltaire2013

happy as a clam said:


> This is an addiction, not unlike gaming, gambling, or porn.
> 
> Not to mention the money she is wasting on all these books.
> 
> Cancel the Internet and get her into a 12-step program.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't go so far as to call it an addiction, though I realize for some it can be, mostly it''s an escape. She now has her RN, and feels more independent I'm guessing. Que Kelly Clarkson songs.

Also it bothers me that the conventional wisodm is for him to see what she likes and emulate that. If the script were flipped no one would be saying the wife should watch his porn and have that porn star sex with him. I've been down this road. I don't like it, but I value my marriage and I'm working on it. She can't even tell me what she like or didn't like in the books when I know damn well what she liked. I partly agree with what JLD says. 

I stopped asking and I started doing. I think Eagle did the same, but I'm not going to lie and say it doesn't bother me at times. I'm still learning how to let that go. NNMNG & MMSLP helped. By being the best me her interest is a by product, but as much as I hate to say it, something got lost in the mix. An innocence if you will. Maybe I'm just being naive, but I don't like 'gaming' my wife, even if it works. 

We all tend to wind up on autopilot in a marriage at some point, he got a stall warning before (hopefully) she wound up with that @sshole at work. 

Be the best you OP, for your sake, & your kids'. If she follows, great. 

(my wife just looked at me and saw 'that face', I had to tell her this hits close to home, and is still not resolved, but I'm working on it. I wish she would as well)

Cheers,
V(13)


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## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> The reason why Eagle's entire thread does not resonate with me, is that the sex is totally there. She has a great sex drive, and I cannot be more thankful for that. One touch and she is ready. I am so lucky for that. And can orgasm through any means PIV or POV...
> 
> However, I have come to resent these books, youtube/tv snippets, celebrity yahoo news....over the years -- that even thinking about having to read this stuff just for her to engage in real life makes the opposite of sense; to me personally. Engage in escapism to rediscover realism is hard for me to swallow. Not impossible, just hard.
> 
> And I have seen some crazy decent porn since the internet expanded, *but I have not disengaged in our real life, family/marraige due to what I have seen...*
> 
> Again, I will be marinating hard on all of this. Thank you for challenging my current state of mind.


I would not compare how you react with how she reacts. Just think about what might work for her in your situation.

Great that your sex life is good, btw. Many men here would be so lucky!


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> OP, what do you think about going to your wife right now and telling her if she does not put her kindle down and get whatever job you have most recently asked her to do done within the next 20 minutes (say vacuuming or loading the dishwasher or whatever), you are going to give her a spanking?


I understand that spanking went with Eagle3's thread, but I feel like I'm turning my marriage over to 50 shades type mentality, versus working on what is in front of us (ie pay attention to your husbands needs and the household we have built)....what do you think about @EleGirl and her post here? I am interested to hear your take on that....

I have not attempted that mentioned mentality until this evening...


Trust, that i am not shutting out any advice, and may very well slap that kindle out of her hands and give her 5 minutes to unload the dishwasher or a spanking ensues. But ---- won't that just make her not do chores so she gets a spanking? Thus perpetuation my dilemma...?


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## eastsouth2000

Overzealous11 said:


> This cycle has been the instigator of many argurments, brought on almost exclusively by me. As up until 3 months ago, I have been the sole provider for our family. Purchased a modest home and newer cars while remaining debt free (mortgage and 1 car note)
> Recently this year it came to a head. The owner of my company sent 20 of our employees and spouses to an inclusive resort in the Dominican Republic. T*he first real eye opening event occurred when I asked of she would walk with me to the beach. Granted, this was our first time out of the country and no kids!! She says no, that she would rather read her Kindle by the pool. It may seem minor, but my feeling were hurt. Choosing a Kindle romance novel over savoring a memory making once in a life time experience of being with your husband and best friend lover at a tropical resort.* Holding hands and looking into the sea would have been perfect, seeing as how I had proposed on a beach 8 years prior, but I digress.


Did you tell her about how you felt during this incident?


get some marriage counseling for the both of you.

don't let this case be a failure of communication. 
"communicate... communicate... communicate..." do tell her what you feel inside & not just post it in the net.

you must resolve this issue before it spreading into something worse.


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## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to call it an addiction, though I realize for some it can be, mostly it''s an escape. She now has her RN, and feels more independent I'm guessing. Que Kelly Clarkson songs.
> 
> Also it bothers me that the conventional wisodm is for him to see what she likes and emulate that. If the script were flipped no one would be saying the wife should watch his porn and have that porn star sex with him. I've been down this road. I don't like it, but I value my marriage and I'm working on it. She can't even tell me what she like or didn't like in the books when I know damn well what she liked. I partly agree with what JLD says.
> 
> I stopped asking and I started doing. I think Eagle did the same, but I'm not going to lie and say it doesn't bother me at times. I'm still learning how to let that go. NNMNG & MMSLP helped. By being the best me her interest is a by product, but as much as I hate to say it, something got lost in the mix. An innocence if you will. Maybe I'm just being naive, but I don't like 'gaming' my wife, even if it works.
> 
> We all tend to wind up on autopilot in a marriage at some point, he got a stall warning before (hopefully) she wound up with that @sshole at work.
> 
> Be the best you OP, for your sake, & your kids'. If she follows, great.
> 
> (my wife just looked at me and saw 'that face', I had to tell her this hits close to home, and is still not resolved, but I'm working on it. I wish she would as well)
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


What is NNMNG & MMSLP?

And yes - she has become more indepenent! I am so HAPPY AND PROUD that she is fulfilling her mission in life to help those sick and in need. She deserves that feeling, and I was ready for it to come. 

Thank you for flipping the script on a different perspective with the books v porn....

Thanks for the words - be the best you.


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## Overzealous11

eastsouth2000 said:


> Did you tell her about how you felt during this incident?
> 
> 
> get some marriage counseling for the both of you.
> 
> don't let this case be a failure of communication.
> "communicate... communicate... communicate..." do tell her what you feel inside & not just post it in the net.


LORD YES!! I immediately informed her how I felt. And had subsequent follow up conversations that month on how that felt in my heart...

I unfortunately wear my heart on my sleeve and face


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> I understand that spanking went with Eagle3's thread, but I feel like I'm turning my marriage over to 50 shades type mentality, versus working on what is in front of us (ie pay attention to your husbands needs and the household we have built)....what do you think about @EleGirl and her post here? I am interested to hear your take on that....
> 
> I have not attempted that mentioned mentality until this evening...
> 
> 
> Trust, that i am not shutting out any advice, and may very well slap that kindle out of her hands and give her 5 minutes to unload the dishwasher or a spanking ensues. But ---- won't that just make her not do chores so she gets a spanking? Thus perpetuation my dilemma...?


I really wish Anon Pink were here to talk about this with you. But you are stuck with me, OP!

You can certainly go the way my friend EleGirl suggests. But I think there might be an easier, more fun way. 

Don't take the kindle out of her hands. Just very sternly stand in front of her with your hands on your hips and tell her she has x minutes to get the dishwasher unloaded. I bet she will blush, stammer, and hop up off the bed or chair and race out to the kitchen! 

And wait until she attacks you in bed afterwards! 

The reading she is doing suggests she is kinky, OP. And there is such a thing as lifestyle kink, which can extend outside the bedroom. 

It is just something to think about, anyway.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> LORD YES!! I immediately informed her how I felt. And had subsequent follow up conversations that month on how that felt in my heart...
> 
> I unfortunately wear my heart on my sleeve and face


How did she react?


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> It is just something to think about, anyway.


Great reply and I will take in serious consideration....I do like some fun  And we have some toys for such a decision

And I am not stuck with you! OR anyone who writes in here! I seriously got fed up - hit the internet a week ago and found another forum - same post.

Received 10 replies, and the best one turned me here. 

And the perspectives I have read on my thread, and others here on TAM have made me jump start thinking on how to better many aspects of our marriage.


----------



## Voltaire2013

Overzealous11 said:


> What is NNMNG & MMSLP?
> 
> And yes - she has become more indepenent! I am so HAPPY AND PROUD that she is fulfilling her mission in life to help those sick and in need. She deserves that feeling, and I was ready for it to come.
> 
> Thank you for flipping the script on a different perspective with the books v porn....
> 
> Thanks for the words - be the best you.


No More Mister Nice Guy - https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

& Married Mans Sex Life primer (some of its silly, but the book as a whole is good) I think you already have that. 

I'm with most of what JLD says, again my issue is my wife can't share that with me in any way, shape or form, just not how she's wired. Thanks Catholic guilt! Regardless the road to a better you is the same road to a better marriage, don't let me sidetrack you. ;-)

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> How did she react?


Weirdly cold and oblivious. Like she did not see where I was coming from. Just like when I have brought it up since then...she gives a subliminal smirk

Saying she was sorry, but then repeating the behavior regardless of our dialogue.


I was very apparent and insistent that I wanted to go enjoy the moment.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> Great reply and I will take in serious consideration....I do like some fun  And we have some toys for such a decision
> 
> And I am not stuck with you! OR anyone who writes in here! I seriously got fed up - hit the internet a week ago and found another forum - same post.
> 
> Received 10 replies, and the best one turned me here.
> 
> And the perspectives I have read on my thread, and others here on TAM have made me jump start thinking on how to better many aspects of our marriage.


From what you have said about yourself and her reading tastes, she may respond well to more dominance from you. Have you asked her what in her reading she likes so much?

I think trying to understand her attraction to that erotica might help you wean her off it and more into real life. 

Okay, just read your last post. I definitely think you should consider my suggestions.


----------



## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> I'm with most of what JLD says, again my issue is my wife can't share that with me in any way, shape or form, just not how she's wired. Thanks Catholic guilt! Regardless the road to a better you is the same road to a better marriage, don't let me sidetrack you. ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


Ditto, my W has the same CG.

And thanks for the insight on the acronyms. 

And even better I really like your last sentence. Refreshingly cool.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> From what you have said about yourself and her reading tastes, she may respond well to more dominance from you. Have you asked her what in her reading she likes so much?
> 
> I think trying to understand her attraction to that erotica might help you wean her off it and more into real life.
> 
> Okay, just read your last post. I definitely think you should consider my suggestions.


I see the transference you are advocating. Genius.

Inquire directly into what she likes from the book, enact a fun spanking exercise with chores as the baseline, and act accordingly. 

Directly transferring the books........to fun life and ultimate goals. With less books, less distraction, and more focus.

Absorbing that for a minute, be back.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> I see the transference you are advocating. Genius.
> 
> Inquire directly into what she likes from the book, enact a fun spanking exercise with chores as the baseline, and act accordingly.
> 
> Directly transferring the books........to fun life and ultimate goals. With less books, less distraction, and more focus.
> 
> Absorbing that for a minute, be back.


Sounds good, Op. But you may not want to make it a "fun exercise."


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Sounds good, Op. But you may not want to make it a "fun exercise."


I see what you did there.

And I want you to know.

That I see what you did there.


----------



## jld

OP, you might want to browse this website. It is one Anon Pink suggested to Eagle in his thread.

takeninhand | Taken In Hand

Lol on your last post!


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> _*Like all the books are some 50 shades spin off type crap. *_
> 
> This is the key, hon. This is what Eagle tapped into and what you need to, too. Like Anon Pink suggested to Eagle in his thread, you need to read her books and tap into her fantasies.
> 
> Believe me, if you do it right, you won't have any more troubles with her cleaning the house!  And your sex life will be white hot!


I DID THIS AND YUP ON THE MONEY

Silvia Saint book wow I blushed thinking my daughters are providing reading material to their mom

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> I DID THIS AND YUP ON THE MONEY
> 
> Silvia Saint book wow I blushed thinking my daughters are providing reading material to their mom
> 
> 55


----------



## happyman64

While all of you are tapping into something different and positive.

Overzealous have you ever just taken the kids and started doing things without your wife.

Have you ever just decided to let the house go to pot for a few weeks?

It might be interesting to see how long it takes for her to notice you and the kids are having fun without her. For her to wake up in a house soiled with dirty laundry and crappy bathrooms.

It might be interesting to see how long it takes for her to notice that her family is leaving behind.

There are many ways to send your wife a message.

But crying, pleading and begging while laying everything on your shirtsleeves only makes it easier for her to ignore you because she thinks you are a whiner and a baby instead of being the man of the house.

Why not step back and see how long it takes for her to notice the crap piling up to her knees.

HM


----------



## tech-novelist

Overzealous11 said:


> Again, I will be marinating hard on all of this. Thank you for challenging my current state of mind.


Yes, marinating can make things sink in better. >


----------



## Overzealous11

happyman64 said:


> While all of you are tapping into something different and positive.
> 
> Overzealous have you ever just taken the kids and started doing things without your wife.
> 
> Have you ever just decided to let the house go to pot for a few weeks?
> 
> It might be interesting to see how long it takes for her to notice you and the kids are having fun without her. For her to wake up in a house oiled with dirty laundry and crappy bathrooms.
> 
> It might be interesting to see how long it takes for her to notice that her family is leaving behind.
> 
> There are many ways to send your wife a message.
> 
> But crying, pleading and begging while laying everything on your shirtsleeves only makes it easier for her to ignore you because she thinks you are a whiner and a baby instead of being the man of the house.
> 
> Why not step back and see how long it takes for her to notice the crap piling up to her knees.
> 
> HM


Needed to hear that.

I popped in a pepperoni pizza (she is vegetarian) and just engaged only the kids for last hour. They have pitted out the living room for the last hour, and I haven't said a word. Just walked on over it smiling....(not like me) 

Your other comments about crying/pleading are spot on.

As is taking a step back.

Disengage a
nd get perspective and re-engage.


----------



## Overzealous11

technovelist said:


> Yes, marinating can make things sink in better. >


I have always used that term in the context I originally wrote.

Then,wondered about your devil emoji.
Found: Urban Dictionary: marinating

Well played.


----------



## tech-novelist

Overzealous11 said:


> I have always used that term in the context I originally wrote.
> 
> Then,wondered about your devil emoji.
> Found: Urban Dictionary: marinating


I stand corrected. (I thought you meant meditating and was just trying to be amusing.)


----------



## Dude007

Overzealous11 said:


> I hope that's not totally the case, but it could be possible. I have noticed a change since she graduated and got her job. And I admit, that with both of us following our dream jobs - that we are becoming different people - which is not totally for the worse, or surprising.
> 
> The fight over the novels has been beaten dead for months, it's now bled into escaping our life. Wish me luck.


OZ. let me save you some heartache what I said its most likely true. Sorry dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Overzealous11 said:


> The bad thing is, I have made a big deal about not splitting the house duties 50% for years on end. They are the number one cause of our fights, instigated almost exclusively by me.
> 
> Though a year or two ago, I realized one day that it was her addiction to these various outlets, that caused her to ignore our houses hold duties. (note i did not say wifely duties, as i think both men and women need to actively be involved with cleanliness around the house) Her days would be spend on in these internet loops....and when i did have this epiphany, I immediately shared it with her --- to no future success. Fast forward to this year, and it's simply a different outlet/medium.
> 
> Would love to hear feedback on that


So you tried to talk to her about the two of you sharing household chores 50/50 and she just ignored it... is that what you said here?

The problem is that she is not taking you seriously. Just like complaining about her distractions (internet & the books) does nothing, talking about household chores does nothing. Why? Because you are all talk and no action.

That's why I suggested the 180 customized to your particular situation. Stop talking and start acting. If she asks you what's going on, just has a nice response, do not argue, and continue doing things for yourself.

Right now she has it made. She has her new career, your fantasy books, you to do everything for her. And she has you chasing her and begging her. Why would she change? Women do not respect men who let themselves we walked all over. And it goes the other way too. Men do not respect women who do that either.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> I really wish Anon Pink were here to talk about this with you. But you are stuck with me, OP!
> 
> You can certainly go the way my friend EleGirl suggests. But I think there might be an easier, more fun way.
> 
> Don't take the kindle out of her hands. Just very sternly stand in front of her with your hands on your hips and tell her she has x minutes to get the dishwasher unloaded. I bet she will blush, stammer, and hop up off the bed or chair and race out to the kitchen!
> 
> And wait until she attacks you in bed afterwards!
> 
> The reading she is doing suggests she is kinky, OP. And there is such a thing as lifestyle kink, which can extend outside the bedroom.
> 
> It is just something to think about, anyway.


JLD... I'm laughing over her. That just might work. If it does not, he might enjoy the night in jail after she calls the police. 

It's one of those things that could go either way or just fizzle out. One never knows. At least it's a 180.. it's something that she definitely would not expect from him. But if he does it, he needs to not then then complain if she turns him down, ignores him or calls the police. > Cause he has to stop the complaining.. not sexy at all.


----------



## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> So you tried to talk to her about the two of you sharing household chores 50/50 and she just ignored it... is that what you said here?
> 
> The problem is that she is not taking you seriously. Just like complaining about her distractions (internet & the books) does nothing, talking about household chores does nothing. Why? Because you are all talk and no action.
> 
> That's why I suggested the 180 customized to your particular situation. Stop talking and start acting. If she asks you what's going on, just has a nice response, do not argue, and continue doing things for yourself.
> 
> Right now she has it made. She has her new career, your fantasy books, you to do everything for her. And she has you chasing her and begging her. Why would she change? Women do not respect men who let themselves we walked all over. And it goes the other way too. Men do not respect women who do that either.



Yes basically, the argument has been constant on cleanliness and sharing household duties, with little improvement.

Is there any literature on this 180 that you are suggesting.


----------



## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> JLD... I'm laughing over her. That just might work. If it does not, he might enjoy the night in jail after she calls the police.
> 
> It's one of those things that could go either way or just fizzle out. One never knows. At least it's a 180.. it's something that she definitely would not expect from him. But if he does it, he needs to not then then complain if she turns him down, ignores him or calls the police. > Cause he has to stop the complaining.. not sexy at all.


Point taken, complaining is ceasing.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

From EleGirl's signature line. This is for "betrayed spouses" but principles are the same. The Healing Heart: The 180


----------



## Overzealous11

SecondTime'Round said:


> From EleGirl's signature line. This is for "betrayed spouses" but principles are the same. The Healing Heart: The 180


Thanks STR
Not enough coffee yet. 
Thanks, I am clicking and scrolling on it now.


----------



## farsidejunky

It needs to be heavily modified for your situation. 

You have shown yourself a quick study so far. You probably would have figured that out on your own...


----------



## Blondilocks

Ele says the 180 is not the same as the one in her signature block. Perhaps she can expand on the version she is advocating.

Gaming your spouse is always risky - as Ele said he may wind up in jail. Besides, do you really want to game your wife? Aren't you looking for an authentic relationship?

I realize that a lot of people play a lot of games just to be able to stay in a marriage. That's a hard row to hoe.


----------



## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> Ele says the 180 is not the same as the one in her signature block. Perhaps she can expand on the version she is advocating.
> 
> Gaming your spouse is always risky - as Ele said he may wind up in jail. Besides, do you really want to game your wife? Aren't you looking for an authentic relationship?
> 
> I realize that a lot of people play a lot of games just to be able to stay in a marriage. That's a hard row to hoe.


Yes, that particular 180 may need some expansion for my sitch.

Agreed on the "game playing" in that authentic awesomeness is always the main goal. Though there are some pointers, in at least the initial list that I can carve out for use.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I would compare this to my H sitting and playing GTA while I cook and clean. I really doubt he wants me to act out GTA, it's just a mild addiction, something he uses to get out of real life for a while. 

I would suggest making a chart and yes it's treating her like a child but she's acting like one.
Divide the chores up equally and give her her share. They get done or you cancel the kindle account. 

Also make sure you rule out something like depression, often these avoidance tactics and not being able to do real life things can go hand in hand with that.


----------



## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> I agree that this is probably about her realizing that she's got it all and done it all now.... and it's mind numbing boring. It's about the same sort of situation when a man turns to porn and let's it interferer with his relationship with is wife. Not any different really.
> 
> If I were you, right now I would not say a word about the books. Why? Because it's easy to make you the bad guy for not wanting her to read a book.. come on a book! I can hear it now.
> 
> Instead make a big deal out of what the big deal really is... she does not do her 50% responsibility for household chores, taking care of the children, etc. She also has abandoned your relationship.
> 
> There are a few things that you can do. You cannot change her. What you can do is to make unilateral changes. These will force her to change. You will have no control over how she changes. But she will change... hopefully for the better.
> 
> So what do you change? It's a 180 (not the link in my signature block below). You change the things you do to be completely opposite of your normal behavior that she expects. It might take her a bit, but she will notice. And once she notices, you will have her attention.
> 
> And no this is not a game. It's not a ploy. You are part of the problem here. You allowed her to become this way... by you taking on all the responsibility, you taught her that this is how you want to be treated. You taught her that you will do everything and she can do whatever she chooses... oddly this is a form of abandoning her.. I will bet that she would say that you have... despite your verbal protestations.
> 
> What 180 things can you do?
> 
> Stop doing anything that you do for her... if you do her laundry... do not hers. She can do her laundry. Do not put her cloths away. If they are in the dryer and you need it, throw her cloths on her side of the bed. She will have to deal with them before bed... or just throw them on the laundry room floor or put them in the dirty cloths again (believe me that gets someone's attention). If she complains, just say something like: "I'm exhausted and just did not have time to deal with it."
> 
> Any of your children who are 10 yrs old or older can do their own laundry. I trained my 3 at age 10. I've never done their laundry since.. they are now in their late 20's.
> 
> Now you are only doing your own laundry and that of small children.
> 
> Do not every cook for her again... not until she starts doing 50% of the cooking.
> 
> If you go out for a meal, do it only with the children. If you order takeout or delivery, order only for you and the kids. If she complains, just say: "Oh I just got something for the kids. They were hungry. (ignore that you got your food too).
> 
> If she leaves things laying about, put a basket by her side of the room and just throw the stuff she leaves around in it.
> 
> And... you starting doing things for yourself. On her days off, you start going out to work out, to visit friends, anything.. just leave her to take care of the children so you can take care of yourself.
> 
> The book Divorce Busting talks about this. There is a chapter about how changing the environment will change the relationship. She expects you to behave as you have been for years. She expects you to take care of her and everything else. She expects that you will pursue her, beg her, etc. That's very unattractive behavior. So stop it. Start focusing on yourself and ignoring her. She will then need to pursue you to try to return the relationship to the status quo. That is when you will have the leverage to fix your marriage.
> 
> If the 180 (as described above) does not work, then it's time to completely destabilize with relationship. Basically, that's when you tell her that either she gets back into the family and your relationship, she goes to marriage counseling with you to work on it, and she limits her reading to x hours a week (or she gives it up) or you are filing for divorce. If she does not respond positively within 2-3 days, have her served and divorce her.
> 
> Sometimes being served divorce papers is a huge wakeup call to people.. to the most obtuse ones who do not get it long before that.
> 
> Some people never get it.
> 
> She will not wake up until YOU change.



After reading the 180 thread "the healing heart", I decided to re-read my thread this morning...

Decided to re-post Elegirl's original personalized 180


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I would compare this to my H sitting and playing GTA while I cook and clean. I really doubt he wants me to act out GTA, it's just a mild addiction, something he uses to get out of real life for a while.
> 
> I would suggest making a chart and yes it's treating her like a child but she's acting like one.
> Divide the chores up equally and give her her share. They get done or you cancel the kindle account.
> 
> Also make sure you rule out something like depression, often these avoidance tactics and not being able to do real life things can go hand in hand with that.


How can he cancel the kindle account without her agreement? What would prevent her from just re-activating the account? She has her own money now.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> JLD... I'm laughing over her. That just might work. If it does not, he might enjoy the night in jail after she calls the police.
> 
> It's one of those things that could go either way or just fizzle out. One never knows. At least it's a 180.. it's something that she definitely would not expect from him. But if he does it, he needs to not then then complain if she turns him down, ignores him or calls the police. > Cause he has to stop the complaining.. not sexy at all.


Yes, if she took his words as a threat, instead of an effort to play into her fantasies, she might call the police. 

That is why I was hoping Anon Pink would have been around last night. She would have thought to address that. I did not. Sorry, OP!


----------



## jld

OP, your basic complaint is that she does not do housework and does not prioritize spending time with you? 

How did last night go? What was her reaction to your ignoring the toys on the floor and putting in a pepperoni pizza for you and the kids?


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> OP, your basic complaint is that she does not do housework and does not prioritize spending time with you?
> 
> How did last night go? What was her reaction to your ignoring the toys on the floor and putting in a pepperoni pizza for you and the kids?


That is the basic complaint. That there is a reality of children, house hold responsibilities, and a freaking awesome husband --- that all take precedence over escaping for hours a day, every single day. That the books/internet are replacing reality - thus causing me to pick up that slack.


Last night went OK, trying to bring it into today.
No reaction to the pizza, but she could tell something was up as I was not 'wearing my hear on my sleeve' like normal.

I plan on taking a shower in a bit, and just heading out for a few hours....not something that i normally do. Don't plan on giving her any indication that i plan on leaving and not giving her any exact places that I will be going. (totally unlike me) Wil lnot be answering her calls or texts while I am gone as well (180)


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> That is the basic complaint. That there is a reality of children, house hold responsibilities, and a freaking awesome husband --- that all take precedence over escaping for hours a day, every single day. That the books/internet are replacing reality - thus causing me to pick up that slack.
> 
> 
> Last night went OK, trying to bring it into today.
> No reaction to the pizza, but she could tell something was up as I was not 'wearing my hear on my sleeve' like normal.
> 
> I plan on taking a shower in a bit, and just heading out for a few hours....not something that i normally do. Don't plan on giving her any indication that i plan on leaving and not giving her any exact places that I will be going. (totally unlike me) Wil lnot be answering her calls or texts while I am gone as well (180)


Have you ever talked with her about _her_ standards for the house? Or are your standards the ones you expect both of you to accept?

Ime, "freaking awesome" husbands _inspire_ compliance. When they don't get it, they seek to understand why. They do not jump to control techniques. And they do not nurse resentment.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Have you ever talked with her about _her_ standards for the house? Or are your standards the ones you expect both of you to accept?
> 
> Ime, "freaking awesome" husbands _inspire_ compliance. When they don't get it, they seek to understand why. They do not jump to control techniques. And they do not nurse resentment.


We have for sure had that conversation. 
Bottom line is, my standards are different than hers. 
In reality - way different. 
While she lets everything go until there are no clean clothes or dishes to eat off before lifting a finger --- I am of the mindset of small daily maintenance so there is always a clean bowl, socks or towels. If she could put the phone down for 30 minutes to an hour on her days off, this would be achieved. 

The days she works, she comes home and the house is sexy, kids are full, dishes from dinner are being ran in the dishwasher, and I had been cleaning her scrubs so all she had to do was come home and have a glass of wine and eat the meal I prepared.



I expect that my standards are met more than hers. Trying to be an example of organization and keeping up a 'clean' house for the kids - so they have standards when they grow older, and for sanitary purposes...

We have had talks over the years on this subject to understand the "why" and I don't feel I am jumping to any techniques, let alone controlling. Though I am pretty desperate at the moment....

I'm working on not nursing resentment, I truly am. 
I will ponder over how to inspire compliance, versus my previous techniques, which have obviously failed.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> We have for sure had that conversation.
> Bottom line is, my standards are different than hers.
> In reality - way different.
> While she lets everything go until there are no clean clothes or dishes to eat off before lifting a finger --- I am of the mindset of small daily maintenance so there is always a clean bowl, socks or towels. If she could put the phone down for 30 minutes to an hour on her days off, this would be achieved.
> 
> The days she works, she comes home and the house is sexy, kids are full, dishes from dinner are being ran in the dishwasher, and I had been cleaning her scrubs so all she had to do was come home and have a glass of wine and eat the meal I prepared.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect that my standards are met more than hers. Trying to be an example of organization and keeping up a 'clean' house for the kids - so they have standards when they grow older, and for sanitary purposes...
> 
> We have had talks over the years on this subject to understand the "why" and I don't feel I am jumping to any techniques, let alone controlling. Though I am pretty desperate at the moment....
> 
> I'm working on not nursing resentment, I truly am.
> I will ponder over how to inspire compliance, versus my previous techniques, which have obviously failed.


That is what I thought, that you two have vastly different standards. 

OP, when I was first with my husband, he told me exactly how the bed had to be made, and declared one side of the bed his. He was very specific.

A few months later I remember thinking, How did he say he wanted the bed made again?

He realized shortly after we were together that how the bed was made did not matter. And he realized he could comfortably sleep on either side of the bed. He stopped sweating the small stuff.

Wanting her to want to spend time with you is a more important issue, imo. But even then, it is unlikely to happen because you scare her in some way, like by withdrawing from her. 

If I were you, I would seek to join her in her activities. Pick up that erotica she is reading and see what the hell is captivating her interest there. 

Seek to understand her first, and meet her needs first. Then see if she is not more interested in meeting yours.


----------



## Duguesclin

OP, being an avid reader is as good of an example to the kids as having a clean and organized house.


----------



## Elizabeth001

I think she's a little past "avid". Reminds me of CTs wife and her game. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Overzealous11

Elizabeth001 said:


> I think she's a little past "avid". Reminds me of CTs wife and her game.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What thread are you referencing? I would be interested to read it for perspective?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

You do everything for her. There is no reason for her to make a change as what she is doing is working great for her. She gets a clean house, happy kids, sex from her husband, meals that meet her dietary preferences, etc. and etc. Why would she want to change anything? It's perfect.

I am not saying to punish her. I am simply suggesting to stop rewarding her for behavior that you hate.

You literally do everything for her. She doesn't even have to wash her own work clothes. She is living the life of Riley.


----------



## Blondilocks

Please drop the 'compliance' crap. You are not her daddy. She has to buy into the program that being organized makes the family unit run more smoothly and efficiently. If you come across as a drill sergeant you can expect resistance.

BTW, did you iron her scrubs? You are treating her like a child and will get childish behavior with that approach. It's time she grows up and realizes that husbands are not maids and she has a responsibility to the family.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> Please drop the 'compliance' crap. You are not her daddy. She has to buy into the program that being organized makes the family unit run more smoothly and efficiently. If you come across as a drill sergeant you can expect resistance.
> 
> BTW, did you iron her scrubs? You are treating her like a child and will get childish behavior with that approach. It's time she grows up and realizes that husbands are not maids and she has a responsibility to the family.


"No investment, no commitment." 

Why would she follow standards she had no say in setting?

OP, I would sit down and _ask_ her what _she_ thinks reasonable standards of cleanliness are. Just expecting her to do what you have decided is likely to result in more of the same.

Not doing what you have always done for her should open her eyes, though. She will see what she has taken for granted. 

But for some people, even that is not enough to make them change. 

And I am not sure how the suggestions you are getting will make her want to spend time with you. You want her to _want_ to do that, right? Not feel obligated to?


----------



## Blondilocks

Her only commitment seems to be to read all the smut she can get her hands on. She has an investment in her children and marriage - does it look like she has a commitment to them?

It is a good idea to get a read on just what she thinks her responsibilities are or should be. It will probably be amusing. And, I don't think anyone who works just 3 days a week is too overburdened to provide a meal for the family.

Her wanting to spend time with her husband will depend on what the OP does with regard to the 180 and what she does with regard to escaping into fantasy.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> Her only commitment seems to be to read all the smut she can get her hands on. She has an investment in her children and marriage - does it look like she has a commitment to them?
> 
> It is a good idea to get a read on just what she thinks her responsibilities are or should be. It will probably be amusing. And, I don't think anyone who works just 3 days a week is too overburdened to provide a meal for the family.
> 
> Her wanting to spend time with her husband will depend on what the OP does with regard to the 180 and what she does with regard to escaping into fantasy.


Please help me understand how 180ing her is going to make her _want_ to spend time with him. I can understand how it will make her feel obligated to. I just don't get how it will make her, from her heart, _want_ to do it.


----------



## norajane

As I see it, it's actually not about him. Or not just about him. It's about the kids, too. About everything, really. Does she do anything with the kids? Does she go to their school events, or take them to the doctor for check-ups? Does she read them bedtime stories or take them on play dates or know anything about their lives when they aren't home? Does she have friends? Does she ever get out of the house unless it's to go to work? Does she have other family - parents, siblings - that she communicates with and visits? Does she pay attention to anything going on in the world?

Her lack of effort in terms of housework and expecting to be waited on would infuriate me. But someone who does nothing but read romance novels (or whatever) constantly would BORE me to death. What is the point of being married if your spouse offers nothing? What kind of parent offers nothing of her/himself to their kids? That is messed up.


----------



## Blondilocks

Actually, I don't think she will want to spend time with anyone until she can get over her addiction, escaping, whatever. The OP won't be doing the 180 that is recommended for betrayeds. It will be modified to help him stop enabling her behavior. I doubt that she will feel obligated to spend time with him or anyone. She has or is checking out of the family. 

I'd be tempted to get her to work more than 3 days a week just to keep her in reality a bit longer It's not like she's doing anything around the house anyway.


----------



## Overzealous11

Duguesclin said:


> OP, being an avid reader is as good of an example to the kids as having a clean and organized house.


I agree with you completely.
But the kids don't see her "reading"

They see her glued to her galaxy phone, turning on netflix for them, so she can zone out. 
It is not like it was, for example, during nursing school.
She would have 2 inch thick books in 9 point font with intelligent information.

I am not 1000% against her reading material either.
Reading for pleasure is what we implore the children to do!
It's just become another form of escapism, then addiction, and thus neglecting.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> Actually, I don't think she will want to spend time with anyone until she can get over her addiction, escaping, whatever. The OP won't be doing the 180 that is recommended for betrayeds. It will be modified to help him stop enabling her behavior. I doubt that she will feel obligated to spend time with him or anyone. She has or is checking out of the family.
> 
> I'd be tempted to get her to work more than 3 days a week just to keep her in reality a bit longer It's not like she's doing anything around the house anyway.


How is he going to "get" her to do that? He can't even "get" her to do the half of the chores he has decided should be done.

_I would ask for her input and tap into her interests, myself . . ._


----------



## Overzealous11

norajane said:


> As I see it, it's actually not about him. Or not just about him. It's about the kids, too. About everything, really. Does she do anything with the kids? Does she go to their school events, or take them to the doctor for check-ups? Does she read them bedtime stories or take them on play dates or know anything about their lives when they aren't home? Does she have friends? Does she ever get out of the house unless it's to go to work? Does she have other family - parents, siblings - that she communicates with and visits? Does she pay attention to anything going on in the world?
> 
> Her lack of effort in terms of housework and expecting to be waited on would infuriate me. But someone who does nothing but read romance novels (or whatever) constantly would BORE me to death. What is the point of being married if your spouse offers nothing? What kind of parent offers nothing of her/himself to their kids? That is messed up.


To answer a few of your questions....
She does attend functions, and doctor, dentist etc.
Few friends, but solid people.
Family is as loco as mine, so not much engagement in that arena.

I can't understand how she has not grown sick of the genre after 300 books (and counting) since March of this year.

She does love the children, undeniably. I would never argue against that point. But engagement on school work is mostly from me. I take a hard firm line with my oldest on study habits, tests, projects, grades. Where she does not have the same sense of urgency or passion towards that either. Not trying to belittle her as a mother, but it infuriates to see the house a wreck, no dinner (on the nights she does work) and minimal studying done - only to check the account and see 1-3 books purchased that day.


----------



## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> Please drop the 'compliance' crap. You are not her daddy. She has to buy into the program that being organized makes the family unit run more smoothly and efficiently. If you come across as a drill sergeant you can expect resistance.
> 
> BTW, did you iron her scrubs? You are treating her like a child and will get childish behavior with that approach. It's time she grows up and realizes that husbands are not maids and she has a responsibility to the family.


I hear you on the compliance component. And perhaps the resistance I received is in my approach. 

LOL to ironing scrubs. But I would ensure they were not wrinkled with some downey *shakes head*

I was attempting to give out the behavior that I expected given back to me, but that was not reciprocated thus your comment stands firm.


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## Overzealous11

Slight update:

I did jet out of the house today around 11am. Grabbed the keys and said was going to run a few errands.

Went shopping as I plan on re-doing our office.

Bought paint (picked out the color myself) which is a feat in my 32 years...blinds, curtains, mirror other stuff...

Popped in back home to measure windows, and jetted right back out.

Went to hardware store, intentionally missed a call from her.
And didn't unload the car right away so I came back "empty handed"

She can tell something is up, and seemed surprised at my actions. 
Baby steps I suppose...

I am not doing the exact 180 that was suggested. However, I am attempting portions of it and personalizing it to my situation. 


I will check back this evening, going to get started on the office.


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## Blondilocks

"I would ask for her input and tap into her interests, myself . . ."

I would ask for her input - certainly

tap into her interests, - I don't know many men who read romance novels and he said the sex is good. Of course, he could read the one she is currently reading and begin a discussion on the plot, techniques etc. but she might view that as invading her privacy rather than engaging. It's like some men who do not want to watch porn with their wives - that is their secret, guilty pleasure that is not to be shared. If the spouse is down with it, there goes the fun.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> "I would ask for her input and tap into her interests, myself . . ."
> 
> I would ask for her input - certainly
> 
> tap into her interests, - I don't know many men who read romance novels and he said the sex is good. Of course, he could read the one she is currently reading and begin a discussion on the plot, techniques etc. but she might view that as invading her privacy rather than engaging. It's like some men who do not want to watch porn with their wives - that is their secret, guilty pleasure that is not to be shared. If the spouse is down with it, there goes the fun.


I think wives appreciate it when husbands take an interest in their interests. I think it makes wives feel loved and noticed. 

I appreciate it when Dug participates here. He would never be on a relationship forum on his own. This is all an effort to show interest in my interests. And it really means a lot to me.

Would his wife feel crowded? Maybe. He could read what she reads without speaking about it to her, if he wants.

But when he calls her main interest "crap," and wants to unilaterally set the standards for the household, it is not surprising to me that she does not want to spend time with him.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Overzealous11 said:


> What thread are you referencing? I would be interested to read it for perspective?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Search Copper Top. Not sure how to post a link on mobile through Tapatalk. His thread is a rabbit hole though. Very frustrating but he's coming around a little. Can anyone else help with a link please?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## just got it 55

Overzealous11 said:


> What thread are you referencing? I would be interested to read it for perspective?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OZ I wouldn't go near that thread or any other of Coopertop's threads

You will just leave there trembling in fear for what is in your future.

55


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## Elizabeth001

*Me (32m)- wife (29f) addicted to reading romance novels -- I need advice badl...*



just got it 55 said:


> OZ I wouldn't go near that thread or any other of Coopertop's threads
> 
> 
> 
> You will just leave there trembling in fear for what is in your future.
> 
> 
> 
> 55



Yuuup

Eta: does ring a similar bell tho. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Overzealous11

*Re: Me (32m)- wife (29f) addicted to reading romance novels -- I need advice badl...*



Elizabeth001 said:


> Yuuup
> 
> Eta: does ring a similar bell tho.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Waiting for the paint to dry.

Just peeked into CTs thread, and will look back into it later. Not a direct hit for me, but worth reading for perspective and information.

I am so glad I found this site.


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## Overzealous11

jld said:


> I think wives appreciate it when husbands take an interest in their interests. I think it makes wives feel loved and noticed.
> 
> I appreciate it when Dug participates here. He would never be on a relationship forum on his own. This is all an effort to show interest in my interests. And it really means a lot to me.
> 
> Would his wife feel crowded? Maybe. He could read what she reads without speaking about it to her, if he wants.
> 
> But when he calls her main interest "crap," and wants to unilaterally set the standards for the household, it is not surprising to me that she does not want to spend time with him.



I have taken many interests into her life, aside from this new-found outlet. 

You should have seen me during her nursing school (which only wrapped up months ago) Quizzing her, interested in her classmates, professors, student activities. Restructuring our life, work, kids around her studies so she could slam dunk her courses and subsequently the NCLEX. Not to mention providing financially for her tenure of school. I have never not taken an interest in her interest. Until this one...

I remember when she was planning kindergarten parties back in the day, and I was on pinterest next to her supportive as you could imagine. 

The only time I referenced "crap", was in type of television programs and type of "books", in my original post - both which have created some mini-addiction. And I have never called them crap to her face. Most would acknowledge, there exists - crappy TV and crappy books. 

I do not unilaterally set the household standards. I am the only person who sets standards, and would welcome any bilateral input or action.


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## Overzealous11

just got it 55 said:


> OZ I wouldn't go near that thread or any other of Coopertop's threads
> 
> You will just leave there trembling in fear for what is in your future.
> 
> 55


You were the second person to reference me as OZ, and though the first person was a typo for OP. 

Wasn't until now I realize the acronym. I pulled my user from my first hotmail address 15 years ago, so it didn't sink.

Thanks for the preface to CTs threads...still worth a read imo, just for perspective.


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## Livvie

The latter part of his thread in the experiences in counseling section mentions his wife's obsessive game playing...(like 7 hours a day).


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## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> I have taken many interests into her life, aside from this new-found outlet.
> 
> You should have seen me during her nursing school (which only wrapped up months ago) Quizzing her, interested in her classmates, professors, student activities. Restructuring our life, work, kids around her studies so she could slam dunk her courses and subsequently the NCLEX. Not to mention providing financially for her tenure of school. I have never not taken an interest in her interest. Until this one...
> 
> I remember when she was planning kindergarten parties back in the day, and I was on pinterest next to her supportive as you could imagine.


I am sure she appreciated that. But this new one might be critical. What are your reservations about it?



> The only time I referenced "crap", was in type of television programs and type of "books", in my original post - both which have created some mini-addiction. And I have never called them crap to her face. Most would acknowledge, there exists - crappy TV and crappy books.


She probably knows your feelings, even if you have not come right out and said it. Didn't you say you wear your heart on your sleeve?



> I do not unilaterally set the household standards. I am the only person who sets standards, and would welcome any bilateral input or action.


If you are the only one setting standards, you are setting them unilaterally. 

Are you familiar with Meyers-Briggs typology? Is your wife a P? 

Because you seem to be a strong J. When two extremes attract, it can be a challenge to resolve issues.


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## weightlifter

!NOT! saying she is in an affair but any halfway competent predator player has an EASY in with your wife. This habit needs control yesterday.


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## Marduk

Read my thread...

It's basically the same thing minus the romance novels.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

If you want the TL;DR version:

Don't beg, plead, whine, or fuss about her BS.

Act single (minus other women) and be awesome. She'll come around, or she won't.


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## ButtPunch

EleGirl said:


> I agree that this is probably about her realizing that she's got it all and done it all now.... and it's mind numbing boring. It's about the same sort of situation when a man turns to porn and let's it interferer with his relationship with is wife. Not any different really.
> 
> If I were you, right now I would not say a word about the books. Why? Because it's easy to make you the bad guy for not wanting her to read a book.. come on a book! I can hear it now.
> 
> Instead make a big deal out of what the big deal really is... she does not do her 50% responsibility for household chores, taking care of the children, etc. She also has abandoned your relationship.
> 
> There are a few things that you can do. You cannot change her. What you can do is to make unilateral changes. These will force her to change. You will have no control over how she changes. But she will change... hopefully for the better.
> 
> So what do you change? It's a 180 (not the link in my signature block below). You change the things you do to be completely opposite of your normal behavior that she expects. It might take her a bit, but she will notice. And once she notices, you will have her attention.
> 
> And no this is not a game. It's not a ploy. You are part of the problem here. You allowed her to become this way... by you taking on all the responsibility, you taught her that this is how you want to be treated. You taught her that you will do everything and she can do whatever she chooses... oddly this is a form of abandoning her.. I will bet that she would say that you have... despite your verbal protestations.
> 
> What 180 things can you do?
> 
> Stop doing anything that you do for her... if you do her laundry... do not hers. She can do her laundry. Do not put her cloths away. If they are in the dryer and you need it, throw her cloths on her side of the bed. She will have to deal with them before bed... or just throw them on the laundry room floor or put them in the dirty cloths again (believe me that gets someone's attention). If she complains, just say something like: "I'm exhausted and just did not have time to deal with it."
> 
> Any of your children who are 10 yrs old or older can do their own laundry. I trained my 3 at age 10. I've never done their laundry since.. they are now in their late 20's.
> 
> Now you are only doing your own laundry and that of small children.
> 
> Do not every cook for her again... not until she starts doing 50% of the cooking.
> 
> If you go out for a meal, do it only with the children. If you order takeout or delivery, order only for you and the kids. If she complains, just say: "Oh I just got something for the kids. They were hungry. (ignore that you got your food too).
> 
> If she leaves things laying about, put a basket by her side of the room and just throw the stuff she leaves around in it.
> 
> And... you starting doing things for yourself. On her days off, you start going out to work out, to visit friends, anything.. just leave her to take care of the children so you can take care of yourself.
> 
> The book Divorce Busting talks about this. There is a chapter about how changing the environment will change the relationship. She expects you to behave as you have been for years. She expects you to take care of her and everything else. She expects that you will pursue her, beg her, etc. That's very unattractive behavior. So stop it. Start focusing on yourself and ignoring her. She will then need to pursue you to try to return the relationship to the status quo. That is when you will have the leverage to fix your marriage.
> 
> If the 180 (as described above) does not work, then it's time to completely destabilize with relationship. Basically, that's when you tell her that either she gets back into the family and your relationship, she goes to marriage counseling with you to work on it, and she limits her reading to x hours a week (or she gives it up) or you are filing for divorce. If she does not respond positively within 2-3 days, have her served and divorce her.
> 
> Sometimes being served divorce papers is a huge wakeup call to people.. to the most obtuse ones who do not get it long before that.
> 
> Some people never get it.
> 
> She will not wake up until YOU change.


This is such great advice. Stop the arguments and SHOW her you can be happy without her.


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## Anon Pink

HI Overzealous

I don't think you and CopperTop have much in common at all. I think if they guy had sex with his wife once a week he wouldn't give a damn about her game playing. Her gaming is a red herring. She is sex avoidant, not to mention all kinds of crazy. This is NOT your wife.

Your chief complaint is not her reading and media use. Your chief complaint is that she doesn't meet your standards for home care, child care and the organization necessary to meet those standards. Your wife's media use is a red herring.

You think if she gave up her media use, she would meet your standards in those areas. So I'm going to disabuse you of that notion. Your marriage is relatively new and you're both relatively young. Your wife is 29 so she is old enough to grasp that what she deems as reasonable has always been thus. Maybe in the beginning she took more care to impress you with her mad home keeping skills, but the newness has worn off and the thrills of keeping a perfectly running home has long since disappeared. 

You think if she just approached home care your way, the home would meet your standards. As right as you may be, you must realize that in order for her to do things your way she has to either want to, or be too afraid not to. 
1. You can inspire her to want to. 
2. You can make her too afraid not to. 
3. You can also renegotiate those standards. 

I think you should choose option three.

In terms of her parenting involvement, this is not likely something you can change either. She apparently sees nothing wrong with how she is parenting. I'm sure you've brought it to her attention that supervising homework, structuring their time, and keeping them suitably enriched, is something you care deeply about and once again, you have differing standards. You want your kids raised one way and she doesn't seem to be buying into your standards.

I wonder if she has completely stopped caring about what you think and what you want? Not saying she has or hasn't. But I will say that either spouse nagging the other spouse is probably a good way to ensure a deaf ear to complaints and or criticisms. And yes, I do suspect you may have lost some credibility by having indulged a few times too many.

So what CAN you do?

First, continue with making your time filled with FUN stuff that doesn't naturally include her. Do not go out running errands and think that's going to make her feel excluded! Because, ha ha ha, you got all that done without her and I'm sure she's just feeling like she got the short end of the stick on that deal! FUN stuff, not productive stuff! What do you like to do with your free time for fun? Can any of that include your kids? You could make those plans and quietly mention them to her the night before, as she is engrossed in her reading. Then go do it. No pouting. Not passive aggressive sneaking off. Make your plans, inform her and go. If she says she wants to go, excellent. If not, that's fine too.

Second, renegotiate what standards the family will operate by. This means you begin by asking her to have a sit down for the purpose of presenting a unified front. Go through the chore list and seek her input on setting HER standards. She already know what your standards are and she already knows that you expect her to keep to your standards. What she doesn't know is that she has a say in what standards are kept and what get tossed out.

Third, you are going to have to come to terms with not getting your way in most things. In my house there is a reason why I do my own laundry and no one else can. Because my standards are MUCH higher and I refuse to compromise on my own clothing. I've had to learn to let a lot of my standards go. It's not easy. But the alteration is even harder, becoming a nag.

Fourth, know that parenting improvements are a very sensitive area. So when you discuss this area, which would some time AFTER the successful renegotiation and implementation of the home care standards, you must endeavor to understand what she envisions as ideal, what is realistic, and what emotional road blocks are preventing her from parenting the way she envisions. You'd be surprised how often mothers feel totally incompetent, when they're really not. Also women who are conflict avoidant tend to let the kids have free reign. If your wife is conflict avoidant, you're going to have to have a series of discussions about how she feels when setting boundaries and ways you can support this.

I don't see you as the dominant type at all, so I wouldn't suggest you go there. But learning to be more in control of your self is the first step.


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## Marduk

I wonder what would happen if as you're laying in bed next to her as she's reading 99 shades of grey part 69 or whatever if you just started flipping through a penthouse while totally ignoring her.

I mean, it's basically the same thing.


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## Anon Pink

marduk said:


> I wonder what would happen if as you're laying in bed next to her as she's reading 99 shades of grey part 69 or whatever if you just started flipping through a penthouse while totally ignoring her.
> 
> I mean, it's basically the same thing.


I bet you nothing would happen. Unless you don't count sex happening sooner than normal as something.

She tuning him out. Why? I think because she can't meet his expectations and doesn't want to be reminded of this. 

Frankly I think it would be a hell of a lot easier to just spank her ass for not getting the dishes done! Renegotiating is HARD!


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## just got it 55

Overzealous11 said:


> You were the second person to reference me as OZ, and though the first person was a typo for OP.
> 
> Wasn't until now I realize the acronym. I pulled my user from my first hotmail address 15 years ago, so it didn't sink.
> 
> Thanks for the preface to CTs threads...still worth a read imo, just for perspective.


I agree with AP 100% that Cooper Tops situations has vast differences

The similarity lies with the addictive behavior.

Get this under control or you will be living the same kind of life as Cooper Top

The Sex you are now getting will disappear for different reasons.

55


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## Elizabeth001

just got it 55 said:


> The similarity lies with the addictive behavior.
> 
> 
> 55



That was my point as well. Escapism. 


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## jld

I am amazed the sex is good, actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth001

Well she is reading romance/erotica. 


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## jld

And she may be HD.

OP, I think you should count your blessings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth001

I would be bothered if my mate was constantly thinking about what they had read when they made love to me. I know everyone fantasizes but she is totally submersed. 


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## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> I bet you nothing would happen. Unless you don't count sex happening sooner than normal as something.
> 
> She tuning him out. Why? I think because she can't meet his expectations and doesn't want to be reminded of this.
> 
> Frankly I think it would be a hell of a lot easier to just spank her ass for not getting the dishes done! Renegotiating is HARD!


Or it could just be that she's constantly wound up by reading mommy porn and it's simultanously fueling the emotional and real-world disconnect, which drives his nice guy behaviour to fill in the gap.

In other words, it's no different than if I sat around all day watching porn but not wanking off, so was happy to have sex with my wife because I'm horny, but it's not my wife that is the actual object of my sexual attention -- it's the porn.

Plus, you know, I'm doing nothing but sitting around all day watching porn.


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## Blondilocks

marduk said:


> I wonder what would happen if as you're laying in bed next to her as she's reading 99 shades of grey part 69 or whatever if you just started flipping through a penthouse while totally ignoring her.
> 
> I mean, it's basically the same thing.


The OP has watched porn while sitting right next to her - nada, zilch, nothing. Maybe she is devoid of peripheral vision.


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## Anon Pink

Elizabeth001 said:


> That was my point as well. Escapism.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, could be escapism. Could also be terrible time management. 

But the essential ingredient of similarity is lacking, why is OP here? It's not his sex life. His standard of home and child care are not being met and he thinks it's because of his wife using electronic media way too much. She isn't even zeroing in on girl porn. She is checking out YouTube and Facebook and other time wasting curiosities. 

Why is she wasting so much time doing things OP doesn't want her to do while ignoring things OP does want her to do? What is present that generally causes a person to want to or need to escape?


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## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, could be escapism. Could also be terrible time management.
> 
> But the essential ingredient of similarity is lacking, why is OP here? It's not his sex life. His standard of home and child care are not being met and he thinks it's because of his wife using electronic media way too much. She isn't even zeroing in on girl porn. She is checking out YouTube and Facebook and other time wasting curiosities.
> 
> Why is she wasting so much time doing things OP doesn't want her to do while ignoring things OP does want her to do? What is present that generally causes a person to want to or need to escape?


She feels like she is being controlled?


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## farsidejunky

My wife needs escape time, and we are pretty damn healthy. 

OP, is your wife an only child?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

Is this the right answer? (I googled "why people escape.")

_"People want to escape reality, because reality is too painful or nightmarish to emotionally/physically/mentally deal with in a functional way."_


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## BetrayedDad

@Overzealous11 

1) Go to the local hardware store and pick up a good quality hammer. Don't go cheap, don't want to hurt your hand.

2) Come home and smash every laptop, tablet, cell phone, television and router in the house FIRST (The kids can play with toys and go outside).

3) Tell your wife, "You have two choices. Either we file for divorce right now or you give up the garbage you have ruined our marriage with and start meeting my emotional needs."

Don't ask yourself, "What am I doing to cause her to act like this?" That's blame shifting. Your wife is neglecting you and she is JUST as responsible for meeting your needs as you are hers. Sometimes men are neglected on their emotional needs and women are neglected on their physical needs. It's not always about sex crazed men and needy women. It goes the other way too sometimes.

Sometimes people escape reality because they are lazy a$$holes.... nothing more.


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## Anon Pink

Exactly @jld,

Maybe only some of it is escape and the rest is time management. @farsidejunky a cluttered mind leaves little room for additional burdens, so don't take that need to escape as a direct hit to your ability to support.

Op mentioned neither he nor his wife grew up in very functional families. If I've confused this OP with another I apologize. But if I haven't, perhaps her FOO included a lackadaisical approach to home care? I wonder if she feels ashamed if that is the case.

Or maybe she is just a slob and simply doesn't see that it's a big deal if the house isn't perfect. Meanwhile OP makes her feel judged and incompetent because she doesn't see tidiness as its own reward.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> And she may be HD.
> 
> OP, I think you should count your blessings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is HD?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

@BetrayedDad,

What makes you think she is lazy? Nurses often work their asses off, especially as a new nurse! I'm not seeing lazy.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> What is HD?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 High drive (very sexual).


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly @jld,
> 
> Maybe only some of it is escape and the rest is time management. @farsidejunkie, a cluttered mind leaves little room for additional burdens, so don't take that need to escape as a direct hit to your ability to support.
> 
> Op mentioned neither he nor his wife grew up in very functional families. If I've confused this OP with another I apologize. But if I haven't, perhaps her FOO included a lackadaisical approach to home care? I wonder if she feels ashamed if that is the case.
> 
> Or maybe she is just a slob and simply doesn't see that it's a big deal if the house isn't perfect. Meanwhile OP makes her feel judged and incompetent because she doesn't see tidiness as its own reward.


Meh.

People are simple.

And people are lazy and like to be entertained rather than do work.

Highest liklihood is that she's lazy and likes to be entertained.

And lazy people who are surrounded by type-A people tend to get even lazier. Because the work still gets done, you know?

It's called coasting. She's coasting.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> @BetrayedDad,
> 
> What makes you think she is lazy? Nurses often work their asses off, especially as a new nurse! I'm not seeing lazy.


There's lazy people in every occupation.

Hell, I know a paramedic -- which sounds all exciting and something someone with some drive does, right?

Except he works 2-3 shifts a week, and purposefully picks shifts where mostly what he does is sit there waiting for the rare call to come in.

He watches movies and plays videogames most of the time.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Anon Pink said:


> @BetrayedDad,
> 
> What makes you think she is lazy? Nurses often work their asses off, especially as a new nurse! I'm not seeing lazy.



I was going to respond but @marduk summed it up nicely. She IS coasting because he's picking up the slack. Stop enabling OP.

While I myself am a very big fan of James Van Der Beek's work, if you don't want to be judged then don't sit on your ass watching Dawson's Creek all day.


----------



## Anon Pink

@marduk,

Yes, there are lazy people in every profession. But again, where do you see her being painted as lazy? IIRCC, OP hasn't even estimated exactly how many hours a day she spends on her devices. 

I'm seeing them as the Felix Unger and Oscar ******* of heterosexual marriage. (that is so annoying that name gets blocked out)


----------



## Eagle3

OP, hi there sorry you are having some issues in your marriage. TAM is a great place with a lot of people with a lot of good advice and experience. My advice is no one has the same issues in their marriage but maybe pick and choose a little from others and forge your own path.

I know our situations are different but the one similarity is we both had the feeling we were losing our wives to erotica and romance novels. That we were being replaced by some Fabio looking guy in a book. On the outside looking in I get it I did the same. But don’t make your battle about the books or what she is reading. Focus on why she is reading them. There is something that is bothering your wife and she is escaping into fantasy to get away from it. My guess is she doesn’t want to get into with you so she just retreats and pushes reality away.

I found out from my wife that it wasn’t what was going on in the books she wanted but there was something bothering her emotionally and with me that she didn’t know how to deal with. How to get it out what was bothering her and what she was needing. Not that what you have been told is bad advice but I wouldn’t go the route of smashing her stuff. That will just push her further away into whatever has her lost to begin with. I would really try to talk with her about it. But don’t come at it argumentative and pouting etc. Try to get into what is bothering her why she is doing this first than you can mend what you need and want done. 

If she knows you are not all upset about her reading it but genreally want to get into what she needs and what is making her escape hopefully she will open up and you can go from there. I hope that is the case for you. Like I said what worked for me might not work for you. Like you said you are getting great sex which is nice. But on the other hand my wife did not neglect her daughter although she was older than your children I think. But the point remains.

I also gather you want your wife to have some accountability. That was what my wife was wanting too from me. I thought going the nice guy route would do it but I just pushed her farther away. But before I could get her to the path of being accountable I had to get into her mind and emotions first. I hope whatever it is things turn around for you. Best of luck.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> @marduk,
> 
> Yes, there are lazy people in every profession. But again, where do you see her being painted as lazy? IIRCC, OP hasn't even estimated exactly how many hours a day she spends on her devices.
> 
> I'm seeing them as the Felix Unger and Oscar ******* of heterosexual marriage. (that is so annoying that name gets blocked out)


Gee, I dunno.

Maybe the 1-3 romance novels a day, and when she stayed at home she spent her time on facebook and watching Dawson's Creek?

Damn. Romance novels and Dawson's Creek rather than keeping the house sorted... sounds like a real go-getter.


----------



## Anon Pink

I think the 1-3 a day might be unrealistic. That's over 900 titles in just a year. He said she has over 300... Which is less than 1 a day. Add to that she's watching videos, plus YouTube, plus Facebook. I think this story is beginning to sound a little over the top...eh?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, there are lazy people in every profession. But again, where do you see her being painted as lazy? IIRCC, OP hasn't even estimated exactly how many hours a day she spends on her devices.





Overzealous11 said:


> *Every day off (4 a week) she does nothing but read all day. *She will do as little as possible around the house, and purchases 1-3 books per day. It's not the cost that bothers me, it's the subject matter and expecting me to pick up household slack . If I sat in front of the kids and watched porn with a plot, ignored her and house.. and did this daily - I would assume most ladies would take some issue.


Most ladies...


----------



## jld

Eagle3 said:


> OP, hi there sorry you are having some issues in your marriage. TAM is a great place with a lot of people with a lot of good advice and experience. My advice is no one has the same issues in their marriage but maybe pick and choose a little from others and forge your own path.
> 
> I know our situations are different but the one similarity is we both had the feeling we were losing our wives to erotica and romance novels. That we were being replaced by some Fabio looking guy in a book. On the outside looking in I get it I did the same.* But don’t make your battle about the books or what she is reading. Focus on why she is reading them.* There is something that is bothering your wife and she is escaping into fantasy to get away from it. My guess is she doesn’t want to get into with you so she just retreats and pushes reality away.
> 
> I found out from my wife that it wasn’t what was going on in the books she wanted but there was something bothering her emotionally and with me that she didn’t know how to deal with. How to get it out what was bothering her and what she was needing. Not that what you have been told is bad advice but I wouldn’t go the route of smashing her stuff. That will just push her further away into whatever has her lost to begin with.* I would really try to talk with her about it. But don’t come at it argumentative and pouting etc. Try to get into what is bothering her why she is doing this first than you can mend what you need and want done. *
> 
> *If she knows you are not all upset about her reading it but genreally want to get into what she needs and what is making her escape hopefully she will open up and you can go from there.* I hope that is the case for you. Like I said what worked for me might not work for you. Like you said you are getting great sex which is nice. But on the other hand my wife did not neglect her daughter although she was older than your children I think. But the point remains.
> 
> I also gather you want your wife to have some accountability. That was what my wife was wanting too from me. I thought going the nice guy route would do it but I just pushed her farther away. *But before I could get her to the path of being accountable I had to get into her mind and emotions first.* I hope whatever it is things turn around for you. Best of luck.


Very sensitive and caring, Eagle. No wonder you were able to turn your marriage around so quickly.


----------



## BetrayedDad

@Overzealous11

I know you don't want to hear this but for your consideration:

1) Romance novels and escapism are sometimes a stepping stone to eventually making it a REALITY.

2) Cheating is rampant in the medical field. Doctors and RNs working long hours side by side.

I'm NOT saying she's cheating but your wife is clearly checked out and vulnerable for an affair. 

She's easy pickings all sexed up on a shirtless Van Der Beek and well off doctors ready to give her a shoulder to cry on. 

You need to shore up this relationship now before you become another statistic.


----------



## jld

I think he is already frustrated. Let's not make him fearful, too, okay?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Sugar coating the situation helps no one.

She's getting her needs met from a book rather than her husband. 

She is vulnerable. Fact.


----------



## Overzealous11

Anon Pink said:


> I think the 1-3 a day might be unrealistic. That's over 900 titles in just a year. He said she has over 300... Which is less than 1 a day. Add to that she's watching videos, plus YouTube, plus Facebook. I think this story is beginning to sound a little over the top...eh?


The youtube was pre nursing school

The reading started this year, as a slight drizzle in February to a downpour by August

I could screenshot her nook library
She just signed up for kindle app last week
30 days unlimited books

I am not over exaggerating, these are facts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Overzealous11

Eagle3 said:


> OP, hi there sorry you are having some issues in your marriage. TAM is a great place with a lot of people with a lot of good advice and experience. My advice is no one has the same issues in their marriage but maybe pick and choose a little from others and forge your own path.
> 
> I know our situations are different but the one similarity is we both had the feeling we were losing our wives to erotica and romance novels. That we were being replaced by some Fabio looking guy in a book. On the outside looking in I get it I did the same. But don’t make your battle about the books or what she is reading. Focus on why she is reading them. There is something that is bothering your wife and she is escaping into fantasy to get away from it. My guess is she doesn’t want to get into with you so she just retreats and pushes reality away.
> 
> I found out from my wife that it wasn’t what was going on in the books she wanted but there was something bothering her emotionally and with me that she didn’t know how to deal with. How to get it out what was bothering her and what she was needing. Not that what you have been told is bad advice but I wouldn’t go the route of smashing her stuff. That will just push her further away into whatever has her lost to begin with. I would really try to talk with her about it. But don’t come at it argumentative and pouting etc. Try to get into what is bothering her why she is doing this first than you can mend what you need and want done.
> 
> If she knows you are not all upset about her reading it but genreally want to get into what she needs and what is making her escape hopefully she will open up and you can go from there. I hope that is the case for you. Like I said what worked for me might not work for you. Like you said you are getting great sex which is nice. But on the other hand my wife did not neglect her daughter although she was older than your children I think. But the point remains.
> 
> I also gather you want your wife to have some accountability. That was what my wife was wanting too from me. I thought going the nice guy route would do it but I just pushed her farther away. But before I could get her to the path of being accountable I had to get into her mind and emotions first. I hope whatever it is things turn around for you. Best of luck.



Re-read this multiple times
Great advice

I am having dinner with a friend and upon my return will simply start here with a non judgemental open conversation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Overzealous11

It was good to hear that perspective, many similarities...

Thank you for the reply
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> No problem! And yes, we are Felix and Oscar in a heterosexual marriage. Accepting this and working to our advantages instead of resenting our differences makes a huge difference in our lives.


The only thing I kinda struggle with is the "be more entertaining" part.

Because it spurred all kindsa "dance monkey, dance" thoughts.

I mean, if Dawson's Creek is more entertaining than he is, the bar's set very low. So maybe he's super boring.

Or maybe she's depressed or like you FF just kinda lazy (your own words) and don't care so much about the house. My read is he could deal with the house if there was an emotional connection.

I think people are lazy because they can be. You could be because your husband picked up the slack, right? And now that he's started entertaining you, you pay attention to him and the other stuff.

So all is fine and good. I went down a similar path. Until I realized that I was just the monkey dancing for her amusement...

That's not really a good place to be, right? 

I don't think she needs more entertainment. I think she needs to learn to put the book down and rejoin the real world.


----------



## Eagle3

OP, hope your talk goes well later. I think that is a good first step. Just caution though, you seem like a action oriented guy which is a good thing by the way but dont expect the turnaround to happen overnight. Might take some time in getting to the bottom of what is going on. But hopefully you will get some info that will get the ball rolling for you.

Also (and this is only if part of what is going on is what i mentioned) try to be patient. Chances are she has blocked out mostly her behavior and lack of attention to you and stuff. She probably feels bad about it so getting it out and the open will cause some embarassment and hurt on her end. If that is the case still get your wants and point across but mix in some patience and understanding. It might make the change go faster and smoother for you.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Overzealous11 said:


> I have expressed to her since our trip how I feel this is an attack on our marraige and she blows it off completely. I sent her sent her articles and she tells me I am being ridiclous. Does not take what I am saying seriously at all. I am constantly hurt almost daily and it shows. No matter what I say or how hard I try - neither her behavior nor my feelings are changing towards this topic.


Maybe ANOTHER conversation about it will help since the last 50 haven't. If this is the advice you choose to take then good luck to you. It's your life, we all have different perspectives.



Overzealous11 said:


> I stormed out the following morning wondering how will I ever compete with these books.


When you tire of competing with Christian Grey and Dawson Leery because you know you ought to be "more entertaining than them" then PM me and we'll get you set straight.


----------



## Anon Pink

I think if your wife enjoys reading better than she enjoys you...the red flag is that you need some serious help!


----------



## Overzealous11

FrenchFry said:


> No problem! And yes, we are Felix and Oscar in a heterosexual marriage. Accepting this and working to our advantages instead of resenting our differences makes a huge difference in our lives.


I am a noob to this forum...

What is Felix and Oscar a referenc to?
Or are they your names?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

BetrayedDad said:


> Maybe ANOTHER conversation about it will help since the last 50 haven't. If this is the advice you choose to take then good luck to you. It's your life, we all have different perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> When you tire of competing with Christian Grey and Dawson Leery because you know you ought to be "more entertaining than them" then PM me and we'll get you set straight.


Is that Dawson's last name? 

I hope you had to Google that...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

The Odd Couple. It was a TV show back in the 1970s.


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> Well, that's the thing.
> 
> He doesn't have to dance for me. But if he wants ME to dance, I'm not going to dance first--because I'm already dancing in my mind. I'm a damn good mind-dancer.
> 
> I'm lazy because I don't care how things are organized, as long as I can find them when I need them. I don't care if laundry piles up, I have a million clothes. I don't care if dishes soak overnight, I have dishes for coffee in the morning or I can pull one out and rinse it off. My mind can tune these things out because the effect isn't really that great. So, my husband could honestly stop cleaning and I wouldn't notice too much. My own natural cleaning pattern would take over.
> 
> I like my own world. It's pretty awesome. I don't need to join the real one, (which I already have) I want someone to understand my world and engage me in it.


Help me understand FF... 

Because I don't think this guy's deal is about the house or the dishes or whatever at all. Although I expect everybody to pitch into reasonableness.

I think this guy's major issue is with her disconnection from him and the real world.

If you would rather seek mindless entertainment than to spend "normal" time with your husband, is the solution for your husband to be more entertaining, or is the solution for you to be more disciplined and aware?

Maybe it's both. 

But I certainly wouldn't try to compete with a book. I'd find someone that liked the real world. As soon as mommy picked up her book, I'd scoop the kids up and be off doing something fun in RL.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Anon Pink said:


> I think if your wife enjoys reading better than she enjoys you...the red flag is that you need some serious help!


WOW.... and no one takes umbrage with this statement?!? 

Speechless. 

I can't post in this thread anymore. The male blame game is really getting old on this forum.


----------



## Overzealous11

BetrayedDad said:


> WOW.... and no one takes umbrage with this statement?!?
> 
> Speechless.
> 
> I can't post in this thread anymore. The male blame game is really getting old on this forum.


Just about to walk out for dinner

I take umbrage with this statement

Big time umbrage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> Betrayed, I'm not blaming him.
> 
> I'm saying how my mind works. I gave my husband plenty of opportunities to leave if he didn't like how my brain works. I offered to leave because I couldn't even begin to keep up with him naturally in this regard. I will NEVER keep the house as clean as he wants it. It kind of sucks for him, honestly. If he were to ever get sick of it, I wouldn't blame him one bit.
> 
> 
> But if he thinks he wants to stay, part of staying is acceptance and working with his wife in a meaningful manner.
> 
> It doesn't change the facts that I don't care and there are ways to make me care a little more and ways to make me care way less.


OP is the problem really the dishes?

You can outsource the dishes.

It's hard to outsource an emotional connection or actually being present.


----------



## norajane

Anon Pink said:


> I think the 1-3 a day might be unrealistic. That's over 900 titles in just a year. He said she has over 300... Which is less than 1 a day. Add to that she's watching videos, plus YouTube, plus Facebook. I think this story is beginning to sound a little over the top...eh?


300 since February sounds like a lot to me. 300 in a year sounds like a lot. What person with children and a job has time to read 300 books in a year? To me, it sounds like she has checked out of day to day life and has little desire to do anything but read. 

I'm a HUGE fan of reading, but I would get so frustrated and bored with someone who won't do anything else and leaves me to take care of everything else related to what is supposed to be OUR lives.

To me, it's no better than someone who spends all day playing video games and fails to take part in a marriage/parenting. It's only marginally better than someone who is never home. There is no marriage if one person is always somewhere else, whether in person or just in their mind.

It's an addiction when it affects their lives, and her disconnection is not just from her married life but also from her life as a parent.


----------



## ButtPunch

FrenchFry said:


> Betrayed, I'm not blaming him.
> 
> I'm saying how my mind works. I gave my husband plenty of opportunities to leave if he didn't like how my brain works. I offered to leave because I couldn't even begin to keep up with him naturally in this regard. I will NEVER keep the house as clean as he wants it. It kind of sucks for him, honestly.
> 
> But if he thinks he wants to stay, part of staying is acceptance and working with his wife in a meaningful manner.


I get this. In other words, quit trying to change her. My wife is the same way. She won't even reseal a block of cheese and it spoils 24 hours later. I either had to get a new wife or buy some more cheese. Her standards are not yours. You either accept this or divorce. The power struggle is a waste of energy. Nothing wrong with divorce if you aren't compatible and your needs aren't getting met.


----------



## BetrayedDad

FrenchFry said:


> Betrayed, I'm not blaming him.
> 
> I'm saying how my mind works. I gave my husband plenty of opportunities to leave if he didn't like how my brain works. I offered to leave because I couldn't even begin to keep up with him naturally in this regard. I will NEVER keep the house as clean as he wants it. It kind of sucks for him, honestly. If he were to ever get sick of it, I wouldn't blame him one bit.
> 
> 
> But if he thinks he wants to stay, part of staying is acceptance and working with his wife in a meaningful manner.
> 
> It doesn't change the facts that I don't care and there are ways to make me care a little more and ways to make me care way less.


Correct me if I'm wrong OP...

This isn't about her not cleaning the house. She shouldn't be doing more than 50% of the cleaning anyway if they both work full time. This is about her choosing to sit in a hotel reading a book about fictional characters on a beach then her going on a REAL walk on the beach with her husband and everything in between.



Overzealous11 said:


> The first real eye opening event occurred when I asked of she would walk with me to the beach. Granted, this was our first time out of the country and no kids!! She says no, that she would rather read her Kindle by the pool. It may seem minor, but my feeling were hurt. Choosing a Kindle romance novel over savoring a memory making once in a life time experience of being with your husband and best friend lover at a tropical resort. Holding hands and looking into the sea would have been perfect, seeing as how I had proposed on a beach 8 years prior, but I digress.


There is no justification for this.... This guy obviously loves his wife and he gets treated like dog sh!t. This isn't about dirty dishes....


----------



## jld

He has to inspire her to want to connect with him. He can do it, as FF suggested, by entering *his wife's* world, not expecting her to enter *his*.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> He has to inspire her to want to connect with him. He can do it, as FF suggested, by entering *his wife's* world, not expecting her to enter *his*.


Why?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr. Nail

Anon Pink said:


> I think if your wife enjoys reading better than she enjoys you...the red flag is that you need some serious help!


I've been here too long. OP does not need serious help. OP needs to stop washing dishes and start taking weekend trips. She wants a man. She has a maid.


----------



## norajane

Mr. Nail said:


> I've been here too long. OP does not need serious help. OP needs to stop washing dishes and start taking weekend trips. She wants a man. She has a maid.


Weekend trips _without _her? Because this is what happens on trips:



> Recently this year it came to a head. The owner of my company sent 20 of our employees and spouses to an inclusive resort in the Dominican Republic. *The first real eye opening event occurred when I asked of she would walk with me to the beach. Granted, this was our first time out of the country and no kids!! She says no, that she would rather read her Kindle *by the pool. It may seem minor, but my feeling were hurt. Choosing a Kindle romance novel over savoring a memory making once in a life time experience of being with your husband and best friend lover at a tropical resort. Holding hands and looking into the sea would have been perfect, seeing as how I had proposed on a beach 8 years prior, but I digress.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Because whining that "she won't take a walk with me" is not working.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> And I'd be cool at home with my book. Win-win. Which sometimes I really want.
> 
> I'm really introverted. Really, really introverted. Dodge phone calls from my bestie if I've talked to too many people introverted. My work is very social and I need a lot of time sometimes to not talk to anyone.
> 
> My husband is extroverted. Really, really extroverted. We had a party last night, the house looks like Delta Sigma Phi and he is so freaking happy with life he can't stand it.
> 
> You don't understand an introverted person by telling them that what they are interested in is mindless. You understand them by understanding why they retreat into mindless activities.
> 
> You don't change an introverted person by taking things away. You give them a little space and engage them on what they find interesting because they will open up to you then.


Introverted is not the same as lazy.

Introverted people do not necessarily seek escapism. 

There have been times in my life when I've been really, really introverted. And times that I've been escapist.

When I was being introverted and escapist, it was books and movies.

When I was extraverted and escapist, it was booze and women.

When I was escapist, it was always because I was being lazy. With the books and movies, I was avoiding schoolwork and having to be social.

With the booze and women, it was also about avoiding schoolwork and having to figure my life out.

Don't blame introversion for being lazy and seeking fulfillment through entertainment. Lots of brilliant hard-working people are introverted.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Anon Pink said:


> I think if your wife enjoys reading better than she enjoys you...the red flag is that you need some serious help!





FrenchFry said:


> I will NEVER keep the house as clean as he wants it. It kind of sucks for him, honestly.





jld said:


> He can do it, as FF suggested, by entering *his wife's* world, not expecting her to enter *his*.


See a theme here OP? I hope you do... 




Mr. Nail said:


> She wants a man. She has a maid.


I agree. Men take trips to home depot. Maids try to compete with fictional characters. 

Which are you? Good Luck.


----------



## BetrayedDad

I'm sure Dawson will help her pick up.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Finally we agree.


----------



## jld

Good point, FF. I wonder if OP's wife would say OP is emotionally draining?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

I guess the big question is if the OP is willing to lose the marriage over his 
needs not being met. His situation does seem lonely like those women married to 
video game addicts. 

I think Elegirl's advice of the modified 180 is a good roadmap. I think if his Wife
would just check back into the marriage the dirty laundry may not bother him as much.


----------



## Overzealous11

Eagle3 said:


> OP, hope your talk goes well later. I think that is a good first step. Just caution though, you seem like a action oriented guy which is a good thing by the way but dont expect the turnaround to happen overnight. Might take some time in getting to the bottom of what is going on. But hopefully you will get some info that will get the ball rolling for you.
> 
> Also (and this is only if part of what is going on is what i mentioned) try to be patient. Chances are she has blocked out mostly her behavior and lack of attention to you and stuff. She probably feels bad about it so getting it out and the open will cause some embarassment and hurt on her end. If that is the case still get your wants and point across but mix in some patience and understanding. It might make the change go faster and smoother for you.


Lord knows, this post describes me. Action oriented for sure. 

And I have lacked patience since the womb...

Will take this into consideration during the course of trying to reconnect with W.


----------



## Overzealous11

BetrayedDad said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong OP...
> 
> This isn't about her not cleaning the house. She shouldn't be doing more than 50% of the cleaning anyway if they both work full time. This is about her choosing to sit in a hotel reading a book about fictional characters on a beach then her going on a REAL walk on the beach with her husband and everything in between.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no justification for this.... This guy obviously loves his wife and he gets treated like dog sh!t. This isn't about dirty dishes....


The lack of engagement with normal and expected household duties that a husband and wife share - is imo - a biproduct of the addictive reading. 

Just like not talking at all for some nights or weekends, because she is on the recliner with her phone in her face. I want her to talk, feel, share, help out instead of escape.

We have always been able to just sit on a parkbench and talk mad $hit about anything under the sun. That has swiftly faded.


----------



## Overzealous11

Mr. Nail said:


> I've been here too long. OP does not need serious help. OP needs to stop washing dishes and start taking weekend trips. She wants a man. She has a maid.


Getting some ointment for that burn.
But you are so true.

During dinner with my buddy tonight, I talked about the 180 and changing things up for ME, and the results would flow positively (hopefully) into the marriage. 

A weekend trip was top of the list.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Good point, FF. I wonder if OP's wife would say OP is emotionally draining?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been pondering this thought and yes
I can be emotionally draining and stimulating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> Been pondering this thought and yes
> I can be emotionally draining and stimulating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I respect your honesty, OP.

Is it not usually a problem for her, though?


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> I respect your honesty, OP.
> 
> Is it not usually a problem for her, though?


Rephrase please. I am trying to track this thought process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> Rephrase please. I am trying to track this thought process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is your being emotionally draining not usually a problem for her? 

Meaning, before she got into the 50 shades type fiction, you felt she adequately nurtured you emotionally? The time that she would normally spend with you, listening to you and encouraging you, is now going to her erotic reading? You feel like you have been replaced by her hobby?


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Is your being emotionally draining not usually a problem for her?
> 
> Meaning, before she got into the 50 shades type fiction, you felt she adequately nurtured you emotionally? The time that she would normally spend with you, listening to you and encouraging you, is now going to her erotic reading? You feel like you have been replaced by her hobby?


I'll try answer each question...

1) No - she was not adequately nurturing me emotionally prior to 50 shades episode in the DR..... But the lack of nurturing was, for me, at an acceptable level--- given the pushes and pulls of: her RN schooling, my uptick in career, awesome kids, house...she really kicked @ss in nursing school, and is such a great nurse.

2.) Yes, the time for listening/encouraging me - OR - me listening and encouraging her OR doing many other things --- is now going to her erotic reading.

3.) I cannot say I am being replaced, as much as our life is being replaced. It's like she's hit pause while the kids and our life - are still on play. And she has no conception outside of her escapism routine.


----------



## Overzealous11

Overzealous11 said:


> I'll try answer each question...
> 
> 
> 
> 3.) I cannot say I am being replaced, as much as our life is being replaced. It's like she's hit pause while the kids and our life - are still on play. And she has no conception outside of her escapism routine.



To clarify, as I have said to her before...

It's like I get to talk to her "between her time on the phone, reading these books" 

I am a filler between the books, and everything that happens outside of the phone, is just a hold-me-over until she can read again.

Not sure if that clarified.


----------



## jld

Have you ever talked with her about what about her reading is captivating her?


----------



## Overzealous11

FrenchFry said:


> @Overzealous11, before this started, did you and your wife have a lot in common?
> 
> Can you pinpoint when things started to change?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We had commonalities yes. A lot? I would say so. 


I think back 6 and 4 years ago, with the youtube loops and ignoring the same things that I am mentioning here....

But here recently, it was during this transition to getting her awesome job......and i hate to say that. From graduation to career.
Ugh that was hard to type

.


----------



## Overzealous11

FrenchFry said:


> Also, what did you love about her when you first started dating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That we could spend all night talking - and presenting theories - and opinions - Just engaging each other and getting passionate about everything or nothing.
Then making love after said interaction.

We could totally be into the theory of universal truths and God's lack of true omnipotence.........
Then the next night, hardcore ferociously raised voice debating over politics or religion.........

And both nights would end up the same - connected in each others arms panting.

ugh that was even harder to type


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Have you ever talked with her about what about her reading is captivating her?


No...Did not end up finding the words in time tonight.
I recognized that I would be emotional and chose to wait, get my thoughts straight.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> No...Did not end up finding the words in time tonight.
> I recognized that I would be emotional and chose to wait, get my thoughts straight.


It is really hurting you. I bet that is how Eagle felt, too. You miss your wife. 

Is it just the time she is choosing to spend away from you that hurts, or is it more what she is reading about, that you cannot measure up to those characters?


----------



## Coachme

As you said, she has an addiction. There a number of different paths you could take. I will suggest two.
One. It sounds like you are craving her attention and one way to do that is to understand where her attention is and why. You could sit with her, study her face while she is reading, ask her questions when she laughs or smiles – break her pattern of escaping. When she is not reading, ask her about what she is reading, can you read it together, what does she enjoy the most, what gets her heart started, which character does she connect with most and why? Share in it with her and become curious.
Two. These books are an easy way for her to get what she is seeking, the challenge is for you to work out what these books are giving her and start giving it to her yourself. Is she seeking excitement, variety, spontaneity? Set aside one hour a week to give her the same level of emotion through an activity, an experience, a conversation, a role play etc


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> It is really hurting you. I bet that is how Eagle felt, too. You miss your wife.
> 
> Is it just the time she is choosing to spend away from you that hurts, or is it more what she is reading about, that you cannot measure up to those characters?


Yes for sure, choosing to spend time away from everything, and me
But choosing to spend time away, based on what she is reading about is hurtful for me. 

I am not even thinking about measuring up to hundreds of ficticious men...it's a figment.

I explained it to her once this way, that 

"I am hurt and afraid that you choose to focus your time on other fake character's relationships, versus engage your own. 
These times in our marriage - where you just start working, married 7 years, 2 kids at that age, plus me working way full time, can put a strain already, and are formitable years. And I want to have an awesome marriage"


----------



## Cynthia

Overzealous11 said:


> I explained it to her once this way, that
> 
> "I am hurt and afraid that you choose to focus your time on other fake character's relationships, versus engage your own.
> These times in our marriage - where you just start working, married 7 years, 2 kids at that age, plus me working way full time, can put a strain already, and are formitable years. And I want to have an awesome marriage"


What did she say and do in response?


----------



## Overzealous11

CynthiaDe said:


> What did she say and do in response?[/
> 
> 
> She kelt going like nothing happened...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Overzealous, 

I know you don't want to hear from me anymore but I just wanted to bring one more thing to your attention, for what it's worth. You wife is a nurse, her job is to give care and concern to people in need and she is held to very strict standards of delivery. She is also a mother of two young-ish kids, who require her care and concern. This point I think you should be aware of is that even nurses who appear to have boundless capacity to give care and concern need to recharge in order to keep going. 

You mentioned above that she isn't nurturing to you, she isn't being supportive to you. And I can see how you or anyone would miss that. What I'm wondering is who is nurturing her? Who is being her caregiver? Who is taking emotional care of her so that she can recharge and face the patients and deal with the kids? 

My guess is that currently it is her books and that's why you've seen such a drastic increase in her kindle/nook usage.

Nurses are known for giving care but who gives the nurses care so that they can keep giving care?


----------



## jld

Anon Pink has given you outstanding advice, OP, as she always does. But it can be hard to hear that you need to nurture your wife emotionally when you are longing to be nurtured yourself. How to make dinner from an empty cupboard?

I know some folks want your wife to just snap to it and drop those books and start nurturing you. But even if you could force her to do that, would it be meaningful if it did not come from her heart?

Or at this point does it not really seem to matter if it were sincere or not? You just want it to happen, however you can get it to happen? Including by using the 180? 

You just do not seem like a 180 kind of guy to me. That is a tool of detachment, if I understand it correctly. You do not seem like someone who wants detachment. 

You want connection. Diving into her interests to see how they nurture her, and how you could learn to nurture her as your lives evolve, seems more congruent with the kind of person you seem to be.


----------



## ButtPunch

OP your wife is an addict plain and simple.

You are powerless to control her.

I see a huge gender slant and feel if you were a video gamer
or porn addict ignoring your wife, she would get totally different advice.

Addicts do not respond to manipulation measures. You dive into 
reading those books sharing interest she'll be happy cause you are
leaving her alone to do what she wants. 

You can't yell, scream, threaten her to quit either. You can't victim her
to quit. 

It starts with you not depending on her for your emotional happiness.
Elegirl is right you need to go out with the kids without her. Have fun. Quit cooking for her.
Quit cleaning for her. Quit the codependent behavior. Quit the if I do this or
that maybe she will give me some emotional attention and then get angry when 
she doesn't.

FF is right about the housework though. Her standards are not your standards. 
Get over it but I think your anger about the housework essentially stems from 
her not giving you any emotional attention. 

This is your life OP. It is up to you to decide what you will or will not tolerate in a marriage.
Set a firm boundary that her behavior is unacceptable and most importantly stick to it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

ButtPunch said:


> I see a huge gender slant and feel if you were a video gamer
> or porn addict ignoring your wife, she would get totally different advice.


Ding! Ding! We have a winner....


----------



## Marduk

The solution to someone being lazy and continually seeking vacuous entertainment as escapism is not for their spouse to be more entertaining. 

It's to expose them to reality. 

The reality is that you have a ****ty spouse that doesn't deserve to have you. 

I am not saying to divorce her. 

I'm saying read my thread that I posted, give acting single a whirl, and stop competing with her books. 

One day maybe she'll look up and notice that you and the kids are playing in the park, or that you're gone for a boys night somewhere fun... And she will wonder what she's missing. Or she'll see you light up in a deep conversation with someone else. 

Or she won't. 

Natural consequences. Lazy people don't get good lives in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Haven't read the whole thread.

But I know this story, by heart.

Please tell me what your plan is.

Not an obtuse question. You have been given reams of input and advice.

Are you utilizing any of it?

What is your plan if nothing changes in the next 12 months?

Your fundamental struggle, right now, at this moment, is that you want the agent of change here to be her.

And it won't be. It CAN'T be her.

It will be you.

After all, she seems quite content.

It's you who are not.

Many dudes have a hard time wrapping their head around that. But you seem smart.

So?

What's your plan?


----------



## jld

OP, what do you think about switching roles? You could become a SAHD, or a part-time worker, and keep things just the way you like. And she could become the full-time worker and main provider.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> OP, what do you think about switching roles? You could become a SAHD, or a part-time worker, and keep things just the way you like. And she could become the full-time worker and main provider.


That would make things worse, not better.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That would make things worse, not better.


The house and kids would be taken care of exactly as he wants.


----------



## BetrayedDad

marduk said:


> That would make things worse, not better.


You're taking the bait....


----------



## Blondilocks

jld said:


> The house and kids would be taken care of exactly as he wants.


It still wouldn't solve the problem of his wife not interacting with husband and children.

If you think this is a viable option, suggest it to Dug. Of course, you won't because you know he still wouldn't give you the one on one time you crave.

I suspect that the OP's main complaint is that he isn't getting enough attention from his wife. Does this sound close to home to you?


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> It still wouldn't solve the problem of his wife not interacting with husband and children.
> 
> If you think this is a viable option, suggest it to Dug. Of course, you won't because you know he still wouldn't give you the one on one time you crave.
> 
> I suspect that the OP's main complaint is that he isn't getting enough attention from his wife. Does this sound close to home to you?


It was Dug's idea for the OP to become a SAHD. But Dug will not be on until evening, so I suggested it.

I would always love more time with Dug, that's for sure. He is very nurturing. And does not require it from _me._


----------



## ButtPunch

Does the D in JLD stand for Dugger. 

You guys remind me of the Dugger family on TV.


----------



## Blondilocks

I don't think so. I don't believe jld adheres to the philosophy of putting out at all costs.


----------



## Marduk

I think there are factions drawing lines on this thread.

Faction 1 basically sees you OP as having a desire to control which drives your wife away and you only care about her working to your standards and doing what you want her to do, which is never good enough.

Faction 2 basically sees your wife as being lazy and who doesn't give a **** about you, and what you're really looking for is emotional connection with your wife, and for her to care enough to try to help the family out.

Faction 3 basically thinks you're boring your wife to death and you need to be a better dancing monkey for her amusement.

I belong to faction 2.

But which one is real OP? Do you actually care about the dishes, or how they are done, or is what's bothering you is the emotional connection and maybe you could chill about the house?


----------



## jld

I think there is one group who is telling OP to inspire her wife if he wants her attention, and one group who believes he is entitled to her attention, and she must be made to comply, if necessary.


----------



## jld

Dug and I are lapsed Catholics, not evangelicals. And we have all the kids, at five, that we are ever having.

We do have an active and loving sex life, however. 

Back to you, OP.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think there is one group who is telling OP to inspire her wife if he wants her attention, and one group who believes he is entitled to her attention, and she must be made to comply, if necessary.


Don't forget my group who wants OP to live his own life with or without her.


----------



## StilltheStudent

If the OP were a woman and the complaints were about a man the advice offered in this thread would be radically different.

OP's wife is a poor spouse who neglects both her emotional obligation to her husband and her adult obligations to their home and family.

Continuously appeasing her fantasies and bad behavior will do nothing.

I agree with Marduk; the faction lines are drawn.

Count me in Group 2 after reading this thread and the advice offered in it.

I would suggest no longer accepting this situation OP; detach your wife from both yourself and your family.

Force her to make a choice between actually having a real relationship with her husband and children or not.

You cannot make her change what she wants but you can force her to make a choice.


----------



## StilltheStudent

What I mean is this: every time I see a Woman hit TAM or similar forums lodging complaints about a detached husband who has escaped into Online Gaming and Pornography to the detriment of his marriage and home life the almost unanimous advice is for the Wife to go full-on ultimatum mode and demand he give those items up.

But when it is a woman doing the exact same thing, suddenly we need to understand her, empathize with what makes her want to escape, and try to accommodate that escapism.

At the end of the day appeasing someone who is diving headfirst into escapism only makes the situation worse.

OP should treat his wife _like an adult_.

That means setting mature boundaries and expectations for both their marriage and their home life.

I do not see advice telling women to join their husbands in their online MMOs or try and mimic his favorite pornography as a way to deal with these situations.

The wives are always told to hold their husbands to the standards of a mature adult man with responsibilities.

The same needs to happen here.

Or we need to start telling women to watch more porn and try to emulate more porn stars when they come here complaining about their husband's online "escapism."

Eagle3's thread is so beyond a unique resolution to this situation that I think it is impossible to reproduce.

I think that EleGirl's advice at the onset of this thread is the only way for the OP to actually find a means to solve this and come out the other side with a relationship with an _adult women._


----------



## Tall

StilltheStudent said:


> OP should treat his wife _like an adult_.


This sums the discussion up nicely.


----------



## bandit.45

He needs to start wearing a puffy shirt. 

Seriously.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> OP, what do you think about switching roles? You could become a SAHD, or a part-time worker, and keep things just the way you like. And she could become the full-time worker and main provider.



...and lose whatever remaining respect she has for him.


----------



## Elizabeth001

bandit.45 said:


> He needs to start wearing a puffy shirt.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously.



Bwahaa


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Overzealous11

OZ Update Here...I am posting update and will go back and post individual replies from where I left off...
So, at around page 10 or 12 is where I stepped off to put some of the advice I have read here into action.....


I had taken all perspectives into consideration these last few days.
Mainly doing a modified version of the 180. The hardest part was trying to be independent, while not coming off like a douche. 


I had planned on redoing our office during my week off, and took off on many shopping trips to look at desks, tv stands, etc. I did not involve her in anything related to redoing the office. No input on the paint color or styles, decor etc. Though this may seem minor, I typically could care less about those types of things. Historically would defer those decisions to her, as I am not interested as long as they are not too "girly" looking.

Well, I am putting a total man-cave feel to the office. Moving our 55 incher into the office, black desk, black tv stand, steel grey walls, mini fridge with scotch and whiskey decanter. Doing all this with no input from her, just doing my thing....

I have been in and out of the house with no explanation of where I am going. Just grabbed the keys, and say "i'm gonna go grab lunch and hit some stores" Did the same the evening I went to have dinner with a friend. Just short notice, that I"ll be back in a while.'

She has been asking, "what is wrong?" And I maintain a calm composure and simply reply "nothing babe, just doing my thing, nothing is the matter" Yesterday morning, we took the kids to school - and came home.
She then comes over to the couch and asks "are you finally ready to talk about what's bothering you? I said, you keep doing your thing so I am doing mine. Told her that I fell in love with her when we emotionally connected, and shared and talked, and that is slowly fading away...

And I begin with some of the questions others have advised me of here...my approach yesterday differed vastly from every approach before for the following reasons:

1) I was not emotional
2) I was not angry or accusatory
3) I did not belittle her free time or selection of books
4) I did not come off hurt, nagging, whiny or worn down
5) I was factual, concise in my words
6) I spoke in generalities, rather than specifics so to not side track the conversation
7) I focused on NOT BEING EMOTIONALLY DRAINING

This approach made her open right up, and not get defensive...

What is so compelling in these novels that you are reading them constantly?
Are you unhappy with your life, that you have to escape?
Do you feel that you read at an acceptable healthy level?
Do you feel that you use the books to avoid any part of your life?
Do you think that you are addicted to these books?


The conversation went on for over an hour.
Highlights were:

She knows she is reading too much, and admittedly has an addictive personality when it comes to these books or her previous youtube loops. 

Was honest in saying that she reads too much, and admitted it was unhealthy.

Talked about how we were raised very differently when it comes to house hold level of cleanliness

Talked about how she gets to come home to a clean house, full kids, no dishes or laundry to do - where I come to home to the opposite. She admitted it was so unfair - and would change this immediately.

Talked about how I take an emotional resentful approach versus asking for help with cleaning OR simply walking up and grabbing her phone and saying "help me clean now babe"

Conclusion was that she will make a concerted effort to put the books down, clean during her days off, help me offset household duties - and I will not be a d-bag when when/if things need help getting done around the house.

We went out for an errand, came home and I took her in the kitchen  Very hot.
Went and had lunch...came back got ready and then we picked up the kids from school and headed to my father's for Thanksgiving.
Came home - had some wine and talked about my crazy brother and his girlfriend (like we always do"

But I could not get the words of Anonpink or jlb (or someone, i have not gone back to the thread yet) out of my head that I am emotionally draining. And it's sooooo true. I am emotionally draining to my wife...

So as we were talking, last night - I thanked her for talking this morning, and how I was so happy she would change....and in the middle of saying that I realized this in my head "that I am always coming down on her, and this is another example of that" That even by saying "thanks for talking this morning, hope YOU can change"...that sounds degrading...
That in itself is not emotionally fulfilling - not awesome - and thus a form of draining her emotionally.

So I just let loose and don't know where it came from...

I talked about how I was emotionally draining and not emotionally fulfilling... my job as a good husband who wants an awesome marriage...I am not acting awesome at all. 
I am acting the opposite of awesome. 
That if all I do is b*tch and moan, and come down on her - that is essentially pushing her away. And why wouldn't she retreat to romance novels where there is emotional fulfillment - after I emotionally drain her. That in some way, I created this problem...
That how can I expect her to pitch in with chores, due to fear of hearing me berate her - versus inspire her to help me clean. That I have been a d*ck in some regards our entire marriage, and how that is not who I see myself.
How I justify my behavior due to my redeeming qualities, and that I am stuck in my own loop!!!

And that loop looks like this: 

I want an outcome. Whatever that outcome is. I want more laundry done, I want more attention, I want less book time, I want I want I want...
And instead of displaying fun awesome behavior - I do the same thing forever - I act like a d*ck. And I achieve the same results. Over and over and over. And never get the outcome that I originally wanted. That my behavior trumps how I am feeling, and I never get to resolve what I originally set out to get. And that I have pushed her away in the past like this - and she reverted to the same behavior...

I don't know where it came from, or how I had this epiphany last night.


But I realize, that I came to TAM simply to call my wife out on her reading and how to fix her....And we could have had our conversation yesterday morning and just moved on. 

But I wouldn't have tackled my underlying issue. And it's not that I need to read her books with her or ask about the plot. Or be more entertaining. Or push her away more or grab the kids and just leave on a day trip while she reads.
At the end of the night yesterday, I realized WHY she was reading and avoiding and escaping - even if she didn't come out and say it. That if I want awesome behavior, then I damn well better act awesome. Because the old formula was not working for anyone. 


That's enough of an update, glad I got it all out. Think it might be longer than my original post.
I will now go back and read and reply to the last few pages.

Thank you ALL for hearing, listening, reading and most importantly engaging and replying. So glad I found this site!!!!!!


----------



## Overzealous11

Deejo said:


> Haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> But I know this story, by heart.
> 
> Please tell me what your plan is.
> 
> Not an obtuse question. You have been given reams of input and advice.
> 
> Are you utilizing any of it?
> 
> What is your plan if nothing changes in the next 12 months?
> 
> Your fundamental struggle, right now, at this moment, is that you want the agent of change here to be her.
> 
> And it won't be. It CAN'T be her.
> 
> It will be you.
> 
> After all, she seems quite content.
> 
> It's you who are not.
> 
> Many dudes have a hard time wrapping their head around that. But you seem smart.
> 
> So?
> 
> What's your plan?


Totally utilizing all of it. Even hearing perspectives I may not agree with are helpful.

I cannot just unload on her and expect her to change. I need to change as well. The 180 refined for me will continue, because it's about changing me, for the better. 

And she was so simple in saying "just knock the phone out of my hand and tell me to do dishes" or "just be nice and tell me what to do" Unfortunately, my approach has always been the problem. Coming here, and hearing advice, taking a step back - has made approach her differently.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> OP, what do you think about switching roles? You could become a SAHD, or a part-time worker, and keep things just the way you like. And she could become the full-time worker and main provider.


Not in my DNA 

We FINALLY just got two incomes, and it has been a game changer for us financially. And a huge burden off my shoulder.

We have worked for this moment literally our entire marriage. I worked my way to the top to provide and make good $$. That won't be an option for years, if ever.


----------



## Overzealous11

BetrayedDad said:


> You're taking the bait....


I laughed out loud in my living room at this exchange.
And I like your perspective BD. It offsets any bias, gives a fresh voice, and I appreciate you commenting on my first thread.


----------



## just got it 55

OZ...... excellent self diagnosis 

It seems to make sense,however I would validate that with a professional

If he /she concurs Will you be accepting new patients ??

55


----------



## Overzealous11

marduk said:


> I think there are factions drawing lines on this thread.
> 
> Faction 1 basically sees you OP as having a desire to control which drives your wife away and you only care about her working to your standards and doing what you want her to do, which is never good enough.
> 
> Faction 2 basically sees your wife as being lazy and who doesn't give a **** about you, and what you're really looking for is emotional connection with your wife, and for her to care enough to try to help the family out.
> 
> Faction 3 basically thinks you're boring your wife to death and you need to be a better dancing monkey for her amusement.
> 
> I belong to faction 2.
> 
> But which one is real OP? Do you actually care about the dishes, or how they are done, or is what's bothering you is the emotional connection and maybe you could chill about the house?



Well stated, I have felt the factions as well 

Faction 1 - has very very valid points, as instead of inspiring or creating awesome behavior, I am ****ishly controlling...

Faction 2 - is also somewhat correct, but her laziness or lack of action on household duties is due to my behavior cited in faction 1. 
It's not that she does not give a crap about me - it's that she doesn't care of the d*ck me thinks

Faction 3 - is incorrect, but only slightly. I don't need to be more entertaining. That was overly simplified. As I stated, I can be emotionally stimulating as well...it's just that when I have been wanting a certain outcome (and do not get it) - I end up being draining. 

I am entertaining as h*ll, and keep her on her toes for sure. EXCEPT - when I keep doing the repetitive d*ck dance, and then she knows all the moves and reverts accordingly.


To answer your final question - I do care about the dishes and cleanliness. And even more so, I REALLY care about our emotional connection over everything. So, I am trying to take pieces from all factions - attempt an 'awesome' approach so I can achieve 'awesome results' and if I do not get them (in regards to cleaning) then I have to settle and chill. And if I want an emotional connection to be better, than I need to give what I expect to get.


----------



## Overzealous11

FrenchFry said:


> I would change my advice if his wife was here. Because I think the person posting the problems has way more insight and control over the situation than the person who isn't here.
> 
> Other than that, we are saying different things the same way-- op has to change his actions somehow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have thought this since I posted here. 
How one-sided this all sounds. 

It wasn't until yesterday, that I realized that if my wife was here....she would say everything I vocalized to her last night ie my update.


----------



## tech-novelist

ButtPunch said:


> I get this. In other words, quit trying to change her. My wife is the same way. She won't even reseal a block of cheese and it spoils 24 hours later. *I either had to get a new wife or buy some more cheese.* Her standards are not yours. You either accept this or divorce. The power struggle is a waste of energy. Nothing wrong with divorce if you aren't compatible and your needs aren't getting met.


Well, don't keep us in suspense! Which did you choose?


----------



## tech-novelist

Overzealous11 said:


> Totally utilizing all of it. Even hearing perspectives I may not agree with are helpful.
> 
> I cannot just unload on her and expect her to change. I need to change as well. The 180 refined for me will continue, because it's about changing me, for the better.
> 
> And she was so simple in saying *"just knock the phone out of my hand and tell me to do dishes" or "just be nice and tell me what to do"* Unfortunately, my approach has always been the problem. Coming here, and hearing advice, taking a step back - has made approach her differently.


She is telling you *she wants you to act dominantly toward her*. This is wonderful news because it is good for you as well as for her!


----------



## Overzealous11

StilltheStudent said:


> What I mean is this: every time I see a Woman hit TAM or similar forums lodging complaints about a detached husband who has escaped into Online Gaming and Pornography to the detriment of his marriage and home life the almost unanimous advice is for the Wife to go full-on ultimatum mode and demand he give those items up.
> 
> But when it is a woman doing the exact same thing, suddenly we need to understand her, empathize with what makes her want to escape, and try to accommodate that escapism.
> 
> At the end of the day appeasing someone who is diving headfirst into escapism only makes the situation worse.
> 
> OP should treat his wife _like an adult_.
> 
> That means setting mature boundaries and expectations for both their marriage and their home life.
> 
> I do not see advice telling women to join their husbands in their online MMOs or try and mimic his favorite pornography as a way to deal with these situations.
> 
> The wives are always told to hold their husbands to the standards of a mature adult man with responsibilities.
> 
> The same needs to happen here.
> 
> Or we need to start telling women to watch more porn and try to emulate more porn stars when they come here complaining about their husband's online "escapism."
> 
> Eagle3's thread is so beyond a unique resolution to this situation that I think it is impossible to reproduce.
> 
> I think that EleGirl's advice at the onset of this thread is the only way for the OP to actually find a means to solve this and come out the other side with a relationship with an _adult women._


I agree with a caveat. 
That the answer on those is not to 'emulate their escapism reality' though my wife and I do watch porn and then try and emulate scenes for fun. 

It's that I realized, her reverting to her 'addictions' were the result of me pushing her away through repetitive negative behavior. That behavior was initiated by me not 'getting my way'

My reply to those 'gamer/porn threads' (none which i have read, so i am speaking from blind ignorance).....is that perhaps understanding and empathize with what is making those men escape. Exactly like I did with myself in this situation. Again, I am speaking so blindly that this reply may seem ignorant. 

An ultimatum, has never been my instinctual response until the very very end. And I am not there yet. Hopefully won't get there.
have hope, therefore will try various techniques, approaches - before I say "it's me or the books".

I told her - that I do LOVE that she likes to read about sex. That I would be a damned fool to ever complain "my wife likes to read erotic novels, or my wife likes to watch porn" -- because so many men wish they had that problem. My issue, was that the ammount of time spend on romance novels interferred with our brand new cool life and that is not sustainable for me.


----------



## Overzealous11

bandit.45 said:


> He needs to start wearing a puffy shirt.
> 
> Seriously.


Is that a Seinfeld reference? :grin2:


----------



## Overzealous11

just got it 55 said:


> OZ...... excellent self diagnosis
> 
> It seems to make sense,however I would validate that with a professional
> 
> If he /she concurs Will you be accepting new patients ??
> 
> 55


Totally not a doctor, but I do play one on TV :nerd:

My real bottom line through all this is simple.

New formula: If I want awesome, then I need to give awesome.

Old formula - I have always wanted awesome, but kept giving douche. 

If the new formula does not work - then I will have to re-assess the sitch.


----------



## just got it 55

Overzealous11 said:


> Totally not a doctor, but I do play one on TV :nerd:
> 
> My real bottom line through all this is simple.
> 
> New formula: If I want awesome, then I need to give awesome.
> 
> Old formula - I have always wanted awesome, but kept giving douche.
> 
> If the new formula does not work - then I will have to re-assess the sitch.


OV my professional opinion is 

You will be Okay:laugh:

55


----------



## farsidejunky

Well done, OZ.

You showed her accountability of yourself, which was huge.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Overzealous11

FrenchFry said:


> @Overzealous11
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome. It took my husband a year to get that. :grin2:
> 
> It sounds like you guys are a great team.
> 
> The one thing I wish I heard more here was that you have to be aware there will be setbacks and the most important thing with setbacks is to figure out how to work through them--which it seems like you already know how to do very well.
> 
> Also, strategize. I built a bond with my husband when I asked him for input, ideas and ways to keep our relationship running far faster than when I was simply trying to keep myself together.


It's honestly, taken me 32. 7 married. 

We are a great team, thank you for that.

I plan on powering through the setbacks with kindness, versus powering through them with d*ckness that I used to revert to. 

And you are SO RIGHT about strategy...how we both need to give input. Almost excited for that conversation...


----------



## Anon Pink

What an outstanding update! Really truly honestly a standing ovation!




Overzealous11 said:


> OZ Update Here...I am posting update and will go back and post individual replies from where I left off...
> So, at around page 10 or 12 is where I stepped off to put some of the advice I have read here into action.....
> 
> 
> I had taken all perspectives into consideration these last few days.
> Mainly doing a modified version of the 180. The hardest part was trying to be independent, while not coming off like a douche.
> 
> 
> I had planned on redoing our office during my week off, and took off on many shopping trips to look at desks, tv stands, etc. I did not involve her in anything related to redoing the office. No input on the paint color or styles, decor etc. Though this may seem minor, I typically could care less about those types of things. Historically would defer those decisions to her, as I am not interested as long as they are not too "girly" looking.
> 
> Well, I am putting a total man-cave feel to the office. Moving our 55 incher into the office, black desk, black tv stand, steel grey walls, mini fridge with scotch and whiskey decanter. Doing all this with no input from her, just doing my thing....
> 
> I have been in and out of the house with no explanation of where I am going. Just grabbed the keys, and say "i'm gonna go grab lunch and hit some stores" Did the same the evening I went to have dinner with a friend. Just short notice, that I"ll be back in a while.'


This is good. You got her attention. But...sorry there is a but here... Going forward, your frame of mind, your attitude and mood should be calm, conten and civil. I was glad to read that you called out to her that you were going to get lunch and hit some stores. Because to NOT let her know where what and when is passive aggressive angry back.



> She has been asking, "what is wrong?" And I maintain a calm composure and simply reply "nothing babe, just doing my thing, nothing is the matter" Yesterday morning, we took the kids to school - and came home.
> She then comes over to the couch and asks "are you finally ready to talk about what's bothering you? I said, you keep doing your thing so I am doing mine. Told her that I fell in love with her when we emotionally connected, and shared and talked, and that is slowly fading away...
> 
> And I begin with some of the questions others have advised me of here...my approach yesterday differed vastly from every approach before for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) I was not emotional
> 2) I was not angry or accusatory
> 3) I did not belittle her free time or selection of books
> 4) I did not come off hurt, nagging, whiny or worn down
> 5) I was factual, concise in my words
> 6) I spoke in generalities, rather than specifics so to not side track the conversation
> 7) I focused on NOT BEING EMOTIONALLY DRAINING
> 
> This approach made her open right up, and not get defensive...
> 
> What is so compelling in these novels that you are reading them constantly?
> Are you unhappy with your life, that you have to escape?
> Do you feel that you read at an acceptable healthy level?
> Do you feel that you use the books to avoid any part of your life?
> Do you think that you are addicted to these books?
> 
> 
> The conversation went on for over an hour.
> Highlights were:
> 
> She knows she is reading too much, and admittedly has an addictive personality when it comes to these books or her previous youtube loops.
> 
> Was honest in saying that she reads too much, and admitted it was unhealthy.
> 
> Talked about how we were raised very differently when it comes to house hold level of cleanliness
> 
> Talked about how she gets to come home to a clean house, full kids, no dishes or laundry to do - where I come to home to the opposite. She admitted it was so unfair - and would change this immediately.
> 
> Talked about how I take an emotional resentful approach versus asking for help with cleaning OR simply walking up and grabbing her phone and saying "help me clean now babe"
> 
> Conclusion was that she will make a concerted effort to put the books down, clean during her days off, help me offset household duties - and I will not be a d-bag when when/if things need help getting done around the house.


This is just BRILLIANT! Well done well done well done!



> We went out for an errand, came home and I took her in the kitchen  Very hot.


Well alright then! >




> Went and had lunch...came back got ready and then we picked up the kids from school and headed to my father's for Thanksgiving.
> Came home - had some wine and talked about my crazy brother and his girlfriend (like we always do"
> 
> But I could not get the words of Anonpink or jlb (or someone, i have not gone back to the thread yet) out of my head that I am emotionally draining. And it's sooooo true. I am emotionally draining to my wife...
> 
> So as we were talking, last night - I thanked her for talking this morning, and *how I was so happy she would change....and in the middle of saying that I realized this in my head "that I am always coming down on her, and this is another example of that" That even by saying "thanks for talking this morning, hope YOU can change"...that sounds degrading...
> That in itself is not emotionally fulfilling - not awesome - and thus a form of draining her emotionally.*
> 
> So I just let loose and don't know where it came from...


Becoming aware of how our long held communication patterns negatively affect others takes a great deal of inner strength and you have demonstrated that you have what it takes! 

So here is a little tip from me (having undergone a great deal of garbage cleaning and still has a great deal of work to do) it's okay to forget to not be a d!ck. But as soon as you realize the d!ck has come out, own it, apologize and move on. Don't beat yourself up. Just own it, apologize and move on.



> I talked about how I was emotionally draining and not emotionally fulfilling... my job as a good husband who wants an awesome marriage...I am not acting awesome at all.
> I am acting the opposite of awesome.
> That if all I do is b*tch and moan, and come down on her - that is essentially pushing her away. And why wouldn't she retreat to romance novels where there is emotional fulfillment - after I emotionally drain her. That in some way, I created this problem...
> That how can I expect her to pitch in with chores, due to fear of hearing me berate her - versus inspire her to help me clean. That I have been a d*ck in some regards our entire marriage, and how that is not who I see myself.
> How I justify my behavior due to my redeeming qualities, and that I am stuck in my own loop!!!
> 
> And that loop looks like this:
> 
> I want an outcome. Whatever that outcome is. I want more laundry done, I want more attention, I want less book time, I want I want I want...
> And instead of displaying fun awesome behavior - I do the same thing forever - I act like a d*ck. And I achieve the same results. Over and over and over. And never get the outcome that I originally wanted. That my behavior trumps how I am feeling, and I never get to resolve what I originally set out to get. And that I have pushed her away in the past like this - and she reverted to the same behavior...
> 
> I don't know where it came from, or how I had this epiphany last night.
> 
> 
> *But I realize, that I came to TAM simply to call my wife out on her reading and how to fix her....And we could have had our conversation yesterday morning and just moved o*n.



Oh sugar bear, we all came to TAM to fix our spouses! 





> But I wouldn't have tackled my underlying issue. And it's not that I need to read her books with her or ask about the plot. Or be more entertaining. Or push her away more or grab the kids and just leave on a day trip while she reads.
> At the end of the night yesterday, I realized WHY she was reading and avoiding and escaping - even if she didn't come out and say it. That if I want awesome behavior, then I damn well better act awesome. Because the old formula was not working for anyone.
> 
> 
> That's enough of an update, glad I got it all out. Think it might be longer than my original post.
> I will now go back and read and reply to the last few pages.
> 
> Thank you ALL for hearing, listening, reading and most importantly engaging and replying. So glad I found this site!!!!!!



I think you get a gold star and move to the head of the class. There are people who have been here forever and STILL haven't figured out their role in their marriage.

Just fantastic!


----------



## ButtPunch

technovelist said:


> Well, don't keep us in suspense! Which did you choose?


Those individually wrapped slices of cheese worked so I got to keep the wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

You are indeed a quick study, Oz. I am really happy that you see the need to take responsibility for yourself, and not expect your wife to. 

I have had the feeling the last few days that you are a submissive. That is my usual reaction when a man is complaining that his wife is not giving him attention, blaming her for problems in the marriage, and trying to demand compliance from her, rather than inspire it.

A dominant would notice he is not getting her attention, but his first instinct would not be to try to demand it from her, or manipulate it somehow. He would instead be concerned about _her_. He would seek to understand her. What might she be struggling with? Is she in pain somehow? How can he help? 

The focus of care is on _her_, not him. On _giving_, not receiving. Yet the return to him on his sincere investment in her is usually manifold.

As others have alluded to, your self-awareness and willingness to face painful truths about yourself has you far ahead of most men who come to TAM, and even those who have been here for a long time. The quicker you are willing to look in the mirror and start taking responsibility for yourself and the marriage, i.e., take on a dominant rather than a submissive role, the better things are likely to go.


I would like to leave you with this challenging, but extremely empowering passage:

_"Drama is making your feelings someone else's responsibility!

It's crucial for you to understand that your feelings are YOUR feelings. They belong to you. So they're yours to work through. Lots of us didn't get that memo. 

Here's the thing: we all have very unique personalities and triggers. What makes me feel bad is very different from what makes someone else feel bad. That's because my wounds greatly influence my uncomfortable emotions. 

My wounds (and subsequent feelings) are not caused by someone else (in the present moment). I know it feels like they are, but they aren't. 

Are my feelings provoked by someone else? Yes! All the time! But this doesn't make it their fault or their responsibility to fix. The sooner we recognize this, the happier we'll be in relationships. 

When you take responsibility for your feelings, you don't have to deal with the madness of trying to get someone to make it better (which never works anyway)."_

Are You Expressing Your Feelings, Or Just Creating Drama? - mindbodygreen.com


----------



## Marduk

Overzealous11 said:


> Well stated, I have felt the factions as well
> 
> Faction 1 - has very very valid points, as instead of inspiring or creating awesome behavior, I am ****ishly controlling...
> 
> Faction 2 - is also somewhat correct, but her laziness or lack of action on household duties is due to my behavior cited in faction 1.
> It's not that she does not give a crap about me - it's that she doesn't care of the d*ck me thinks
> 
> Faction 3 - is incorrect, but only slightly. I don't need to be more entertaining. That was overly simplified. As I stated, I can be emotionally stimulating as well...it's just that when I have been wanting a certain outcome (and do not get it) - I end up being draining.
> 
> I am entertaining as h*ll, and keep her on her toes for sure. EXCEPT - when I keep doing the repetitive d*ck dance, and then she knows all the moves and reverts accordingly.
> 
> 
> To answer your final question - I do care about the dishes and cleanliness. And even more so, I REALLY care about our emotional connection over everything. So, I am trying to take pieces from all factions - attempt an 'awesome' approach so I can achieve 'awesome results' and if I do not get them (in regards to cleaning) then I have to settle and chill. And if I want an emotional connection to be better, than I need to give what I expect to get.


OK good and insightful!

What if you had to give up giving a **** about the house or accepting doing it all yourself with a smile on your face to get the emotional connection you desire?


----------



## Overzealous11

marduk said:


> OK good and insightful!
> 
> What if you had to give up giving a **** about the house or accepting doing it all yourself with a smile on your face to get the emotional connection you desire?


In this hypothetical, I would choose not giving a $hit.
Because it is harder for me to accept doing it all myself with a smile.


But in reality, I would advocate that both are an option.
I need to care less - and not create an emotional connection to uncleanliness. 
And when I feel the need to do it all myself - just ask for help kindly. 
And take responsibility for our emotional connection, versus expecting us to emotionally connect while I act pouty and d*ickish.


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> In this hypothetical, I would choose not giving a $hit.
> Because it is harder for me to accept doing it all myself with a smile.
> 
> 
> But in reality, I would advocate that both are an option.
> I need to care less - and not create an emotional connection to uncleanliness.
> And when I feel the need to do it all myself - just ask for help kindly.
> And take responsibility for our emotional connection, versus expecting us to emotionally connect while I act pouty and d*ickish.


Can you describe your emotional connection to cleanliness/uncleanliness?


----------



## bandit.45

Overzealous11 said:


> Is that a Seinfeld reference? :grin2:


A puffy shirt will drive his wife wild.


----------



## Marduk

Overzealous11 said:


> In this hypothetical, I would choose not giving a $hit.
> Because it is harder for me to accept doing it all myself with a smile.
> 
> 
> But in reality, I would advocate that both are an option.
> I need to care less - and not create an emotional connection to uncleanliness.
> And when I feel the need to do it all myself - just ask for help kindly.
> And take responsibility for our emotional connection, versus expecting us to emotionally connect while I act pouty and d*ickish.



OK all fine and good.

But, having been in a similar spot -- be very careful right now.

You will feel good and powerful and like you have a handle on things and it's clear skies, maybe. And that might be true.

But there will be a time when you come home from work tired to a messy house.

Or there will be a time when your wife does not respond when you're being captain fantastic.

I want you to know that you're in a position of influence with your wife, not of control. You control yourself and your response, but she may or may not respond to it.

This should not affect your long-term strategy, only your implementation of it.


----------



## Blondilocks

Hope this works out for you. Since you've taken all the responsibility for the discord you may find that her intentions to improve are just intentions or lip service. Watch & see. Good luck.


----------



## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> Hope this works out for you. Since you've taken all the responsibility for the discord you may find that her intentions to improve are just intentions or lip service. Watch & see. Good luck.


I'm sorry if that's out it sounds. 
I feel that she and I both have flaws - and it so happens that her flaws (lack of cleaning / addictive reading) bring out my flaws (negative emotional responses to not getting my way)

I am taking responsibility for what I think that I am responsible for:

1) Engaging in behavior that pushes her away 
2) Having a negative emotional response when I do not immediately get my way 
3) Reacting in a resentful way, versus a constructive way

She did take responsibility as well:

1) Excessive/addictive reading cycles
2) Not carrying her weight on cleaning 
3) Encouraging me to approach her with kindness versus the opposite

I am being cautious to not turn this all around on myself for sure....but I am also being cautious to not dumping it all on her as well.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Can you describe your emotional connection to cleanliness/uncleanliness?


No, but I'll give it a sure shot. :laugh:

In my marriage - it was the fact that I would do a majority of the cleaning laundry etc. And felt that neglected and attacked emotionally when she did not pull her weight. That was my immediate reaction, every time. Feel attacked, slighted, and neglected. However, that is standard for my upbringing.....Equation is as follows.

Feelings are hurt + not getting what we want = act like a d*ck. 
Father did it when we were young, outgrew it like my grandfather after 50.
Brother has done it his whole life.
I have been denying that reality, thinking that my good qualities justify that behavior.


In my work- I like order in my personal space. My line of work - the world is always moving, sometimes on fire (figuratively) but my computer files, computer desktop, and desk are in order.

So in my house - things are always moving, sometimes on fire (figuratively) Two kids, careers, school, activities, just a full life. And I like to look around at home and feel some semblance of order. Ie. empty sink, clean counters, laundry not piled up, floor somewhat clean. Makes me feel a foundation of being in control. 

And I reallllly realllly want to instill that into my children (minus the negative emotional reaction to some uncleanliness)
And I am doing a great job teaching them the basics of how to clean up after a meal, do their own laundry, vacuum dust etc....BUTTTTTTT what I am also showing them is that acting like a d*ck when it's not done is the norm. And I need to change that.


----------



## Overzealous11

bandit.45 said:


> A puffy shirt will drive his wife wild.


I am just not over this reference. Is it Seinfield? Or specific to TAM??

Googling totally points me to Sienfeld, and apparantly one only runs $50 bucks on Amazon :surprise:


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> I'm sorry if that's out it sounds.
> I feel that she and I both have flaws - and it so happens that her flaws (lack of cleaning / addictive reading) bring out my flaws (negative emotional responses to not getting my way)
> 
> I am taking responsibility for what I think that I am responsible for:
> 
> 1) Engaging in behavior that pushes her away
> 2) Having a negative emotional response when I do not immediately get my way
> 3) Reacting in a resentful way, versus a constructive way
> 
> She did take responsibility as well:
> 
> 1) Excessive/addictive reading cycles
> 2) Not carrying her weight on cleaning
> 3) Encouraging me to approach her with kindness versus the opposite
> 
> I am being cautious to not turn this all around on myself for sure....but I am also being cautious to not dumping it all on her as well.


I think it is okay to take responsibility. Unilaterally taking responsibility can inspire a very positive outcome. And how empowering for the initiator!


----------



## Overzealous11

marduk said:


> OK all fine and good.
> 
> But, having been in a similar spot -- be very careful right now.
> 
> You will feel good and powerful and like you have a handle on things and it's clear skies, maybe. And that might be true.
> 
> But there will be a time when you come home from work tired to a messy house.
> 
> Or there will be a time when your wife does not respond when you're being captain fantastic.
> 
> I want you to know that you're in a position of influence with your wife, not of control. You control yourself and your response, but she may or may not respond to it.
> 
> This should not affect your long-term strategy, only your implementation of it.


I feel like posting the Morgan Freeman meme where he pointing above saying "He's right you know"

And I am preparing for that mentally so I do not fall back into my own trap. That instead of either 1) not communicating 2) communicating like an @sshole when things are not how I want or expect ---- that I attempt a different approach.

And recognizing that I cannot control but rather influence. And how I influence is key. 

Long term strategy and implementation. Good words in and of themselves.

Thank you marduk!!! :laugh:


----------



## jld

Overzealous11 said:


> No, but I'll give it a sure shot. :laugh:
> 
> In my marriage - it was the fact that I would do a majority of the cleaning laundry etc. And felt that neglected and attacked emotionally when she did not pull her weight. That was my immediate reaction, every time. Feel attacked, slighted, and neglected. However, that is standard for my upbringing.....Equation is as follows.
> 
> Feelings are hurt + not getting what we want = act like a d*ck.
> Father did it when we were young, outgrew it like my grandfather after 50.
> Brother has done it his whole life.
> I have been denying that reality, thinking that my good qualities justify that behavior.
> 
> 
> In my work- I like order in my personal space. My line of work - the world is always moving, sometimes on fire (figuratively) but my computer files, computer desktop, and desk are in order.
> 
> So in my house - things are always moving, sometimes on fire (figuratively) Two kids, careers, school, activities, just a full life. And I like to look around at home and feel some semblance of order. Ie. empty sink, clean counters, laundry not piled up, floor somewhat clean. Makes me feel a foundation of being in control.
> 
> And I reallllly realllly want to instill that into my children (minus the negative emotional reaction to some uncleanliness)
> And I am doing a great job teaching them the basics of how to clean up after a meal, do their own laundry, vacuum dust etc....BUTTTTTTT what I am also showing them is that acting like a d*ck when it's not done is the norm. And I need to change that.


Again, glad to see the self-awareness. 

Have you ever had counseling for the control issues?

Life tends to be a lot more enjoyable when we can relax, and not need to have everything just so.


----------



## Overzealous11

jld said:


> Again, glad to see the self-awareness.
> 
> Have you ever had counseling for the control issues?
> 
> Life tends to be a lot more enjoyable when we can relax, and not need to have everything just so.



No I have not had counseling for control issues.
I will think it over though. 

But upon quick reflection during typing out this reply - I do not feel the need to control everything around me. 
Though from my thread it may feel that way. 

I defer control to dozens of people at work, and cannot intricately micro manage tasks, when I easily could choose to manage in that way.

I defer much control to the wife in our financial affairs, nuances of raising the children. 

But I need to think about that more and self-analyze what control issues I do possess and what parts of my life are they the most present.

I could wake up Tuesday next week with another self-realization....


----------



## Overzealous11

EleGirl said:


> JLD... > Cause he has to stop the complaining.. not sexy at all.



I am re-reading this thread again for insight, focus, and stamina.

This line from @EleGirl resonated with me, since she clicked "SUBMIT REPLY"


It has made me think to myself: "How can I get sexy if I do not give sexy? If I give complaining, then what will I get???


These were goods words @EleGirl. Thank you!!!!


----------



## jld

Very good to reread. Shows you really want to learn.


----------



## Blondilocks

Overzealous11 said:


> I am just not over this reference. Is it Seinfield? Or specific to TAM??
> 
> Googling totally points me to Sienfeld, and apparantly one only runs $50 bucks on Amazon :surprise:


Forget about the puffy shirt comments - it was just a piece of fun for the guys. Do not buy this type of shirt unless you're a pirate from the 1700s, a poet or gay.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Blondilocks said:


> Forget about the puffy shirt comments - it was just a piece of fun for the guys. Do not buy this type of shirt unless you're a pirate from the 1700s, a poet or gay.



Or Fabio. lol 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001

Maybe that will help 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Overzealous11

Elizabeth001 said:


> View attachment 40785
> 
> 
> Maybe that will help
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whoop there it is.
Thanks for visually clarifying!

*face palm*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elizabeth001

Bwaahaaa


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

FrenchFry said:


> I also share this unfortunate trait with my husband. We can get stuck in terrible feedback loops.
> 
> Kindness takes precedence in my marriage because I 100% believe that he loves me and does not wish to actively cause me grief despite actions that I would interpret as telling me differently. Same for him.
> 
> Kindness works for us. Since sometimes we are passing ships, we leave love notes mixed with "could you please," notes all over the house. I've become a sentimental thing so I keep most of these notes which then lead to another note: please put your notes in the folder! :lol:
> 
> I respond best to kindness. Others respond better to other things. The most important thing is to be vigilant.
> 
> Believe me, I don't think it's all on you. If your wife, however, is open to acknowledgment of her errors AND is giving ways to overcome her proclivities, I think you have a leg up on anyone who is going in totally blind.


Why do you not think it is all on him, FF?

I ask, because, ime, when one person wants something in a marriage, it usually ends up being if not all, then mostly all on them to make it happen.

Heck, it usually happens that way in life in general.


----------



## ButtPunch

Just because one person changes doesn't necessarily mean the other will follow suit. This is especially the case if any sort of addiction is involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

jld said:


> Why do you not think it is all on him, FF?
> 
> I ask, because, ime, when one person wants something in a marriage, it usually ends up being if not all, then mostly all on them to make it happen.
> 
> Heck, it usually happens that way in life in general.


Because there are two people in a marriage. When one isn't showing up there is no marriage. Just because he wasn't in the habit of saying "pretty please" doesn't give her the right to check out. 

Her 'I don't care for his attitude' doesn't allow her to shirk her responsibilities to the family. If it weren't for him, her kids would be wearing dirty underwear to school.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> Because there are two people in a marriage. When one isn't showing up there is no marriage. Just because he wasn't in the habit of saying "pretty please" doesn't give her the right to check out.
> 
> Her 'I don't care for his attitude' doesn't allow her to shirk her responsibilities to the family. If it weren't for him, her kids would be wearing dirty underwear to school.


We don't know that. Maybe if he would make a space, she would find her own rhythm.

And all couples negotiate their own contract anyway.


----------



## Blondilocks

She only works 3 days a week - what's keeping her from finding her own space in the 2 days she's home without him.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> She only works 3 days a week - what's keeping her from finding her own space in the 2 days she's home without him.


I don't think it was a priority to her. But keeping the marriage clearly is, so I think she will be stepping up.

I feel bad for women who have that threat of a husband leaving over their heads, though. I would not think it would make them feel very confident in the man.

I think it would be better for Oz to relax and focus on inspiring her to want to spend time with him. And I have only said that about two dozen times now.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blondilocks said:


> Because there are two people in a marriage. When one isn't showing up there is no marriage. Just because he wasn't in the habit of saying "pretty please" doesn't give her the right to check out.
> 
> Her 'I don't care for his attitude' doesn't allow her to shirk her responsibilities to the family. If it weren't for him, her kids would be wearing dirty underwear to school.


Not feeling the love for OP's wife, eh? Regardless of how you feel, you've taken hyperbole to the point of incredulity. You use the same tactics my husband uses. You draw out a line of thought to the most absurd point just to illustrate how wrong that thought is.

Huge difference between not being a d!ck and having to say pretty please.

Huge difference between her spending way too much time reading and her not giving a damn.

Huge difference between her not meeting his exacting standards and material neglect of her children.

If you go back and read Overzealous's updates, you'll see how he has addressed exactly what you've taken to absurd conclusions.


----------



## Blondilocks

I beg to differ, AP. Just because you relate to the wife doesn't mean your points are any more relevant than any one else's. I'm guessing that you really, really like the word 'absurd'.


----------



## Anon Pink

Actually, yes they are and LOL, yeah I do!!! 

Might want to read OP's updates before you continue to insist on the relevance of your POV; that his wife is useless and he is faultless.


----------



## ButtPunch

As usual, male op shows any anger and the anger police arrive. OP is probably responsible for about 10% of the mess and he is getting lambasted for it. 

OP has no problem admitting his faults and working on it. Is that the case for his misunderstood wife.

Another thread where if the OP was a woman she would be getting totally different advice from the same posters..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

FrenchFry said:


> I dunno, I think despite all of us talking at each other, OP managed to take action and get a result he likes for now.
> 
> Isn't that what is important?


Agreed....Baby steps.

The OP has done an excellent job filtering out the important stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Voltaire2013

FrenchFry said:


> I dunno, I think despite all of us talking at each other, OP managed to take action and get a result he likes for now.
> 
> Isn't that what is important?


Agreed, he handled it far better than I have so far. Now pardon me whilst I go apologize to my wife for being a d1ck. :grin2:

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## Overzealous11

ButtPunch said:


> Just because one person changes doesn't necessarily mean the other will follow suit. This is especially the case if any sort of addiction is involved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But if neither person changes, then no one will follow suit.
This is always the case.
I have to at least try and change my previous behavior, as it was not a winning formula.


Am I prepared to diagnose my wife with an internet/book/video addiction? Perhaps..

But I am more prepared to admit that I am addicted to being a d*ck. 
That I revert back to that behavior every time I am faced with not getting my way, and have been doing so for years. 


I read earlier, that it is empowering for one person to be the catalyst of change.


----------



## Overzealous11

Blondilocks said:


> Because there are two people in a marriage. When one isn't showing up there is no marriage. Just because he wasn't in the habit of saying "pretty please" doesn't give her the right to check out.
> 
> Her 'I don't care for his attitude' doesn't allow her to shirk her responsibilities to the family. If it weren't for him, her kids would be wearing dirty underwear to school.




To reply to your post....

That is over-simplified to think that my take-aways from everyone's awesome input - is to have better manners and say 'pwetty pwease' when I want her to engage... 

And two people were surely showing up. 
One was being the token d-bag, and the other was being an avoidance addict to token d-bags. 


It's simply , when I don't get my way - I can turn that around to full blown @sshole mode. It is so second-nature and such an easy transition that it so SUPER EASY for her to 'check out'. Looking back over the last few days, I have pushed her to 'checking out' for years.....she stayed checked in for a while, but would slowly fade in and out depending on me...

*My words - not hers.......*

But inferring my wife does not care about our children and bringing their underwear into this, was a off-putting to read.


----------



## Voltaire2013

Overzealous11 said:


> But if neither person changes, then no one will follow suit.
> This is always the case.
> I have to at least try and change my previous behavior, as it was not a winning formula.
> 
> 
> Am I prepared to diagnose my wife with an internet/book/video addiction? Perhaps..
> 
> But I am more prepared to admit that I am addicted to being a d*ck.
> That I revert back to that behavior every time I am faced with not getting my way, and have been doing so for years.
> 
> 
> I read earlier, that it is empowering for one person to be the catalyst of change.


I think you're doing fantastic, and I'm following you, I got way too comfy with my resentments and declaring that I was right! It hasn't helped at all. You're onto something here and I won't pretend it's a panacea but it's a path. 

I have a feeling you'll do quite well long term. You're helping me here, Mr Sam Adams is a liar, I know this but I listen everytime.

Best to you Sir, you've helped me too, and I've been here far too long to feign ignorance. 

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## Overzealous11

ButtPunch said:


> As usual, male op shows any anger and the anger police arrive. OP is probably responsible for about 10% of the mess and he is getting lambasted for it.
> 
> OP has no problem admitting his faults and working on it. Is that the case for his misunderstood wife.
> 
> Another thread where if the OP was a woman she would be getting totally different advice from the same posters..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



There in lies the rub.
There are two messes.
I am 100% responsible for mine. She is 100% for hers.
And the more I take responsibility, the better she is.
And the more she takes responsibility, the better I am.

I am unfamiliar with any bias on anger police @ TAM (total noob), though I have noticed many calling out the men v women idea in my inaugural thread. That if the tables were turned, then the advice would have been much different. 

Since OP (me) is a man, shouldn't I be getting totally different advice from the same posters? 
Do I really want them to give me the identical advice they give to women, just because the initial problem is similar?

Me encanta las diferencias entro los hombres y las mujeres!!


----------



## Overzealous11

ButtPunch said:


> Agreed....Baby steps.
> 
> The OP has done an excellent job filtering out the important stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love what about bob!!

What important stuff have I filtered out?

:wink2:


----------



## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> Agreed, he handled it far better than I have so far. Now pardon me whilst I go apologize to my wife for being a d1ck. :grin2:
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)



:nerd:

:grin2:

There was a blog I read once, a months ago...
Where the guy described what it was like to be divorced due to him being a d*ck. Like he was a good dad, fun guy, cool person...but sh*tty husband... And it was a great easy awesome read. It really flowed, and he has different updates. I will try and find and post here to you @Voltaire2013

It got my brain churning a few months ago, but didn't really stick like this week has. Typing this makes me want to find and re-read


----------



## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> I think you're doing fantastic, and I'm following you, I got way too comfy with my resentments and declaring that I was right! It hasn't helped at all. You're onto something here and I won't pretend it's a panacea but it's a path.
> 
> I have a feeling you'll do quite well long term. You're helping me here, Mr Sam Adams is a liar, I know this but I listen every time.
> 
> Best to you Sir, you've helped me too, and I've been here far too long to feign ignorance.
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


Not a panacea, but it's a path. Sounds like Ice Age dialogue! :laugh: Really like the descriptive general and specific nature of this statement. 

Found what I was looking for. I made it to around 8 I think the last time. Will definitely be giving it another spin.

http://mustbethistalltoride.com/2013/07/03/an-open-letter-to-****ty-husbands-vol-1/


And now I must feign my own ignorance, and ask what is Mr Sam Adam's is a liar reference??

:wink2::wink2:


----------



## Voltaire2013

Overzealous11 said:


> Not a panacea, but it's a path. Sounds like Ice Age dialogue! :laugh: Really like the descriptive general and specific nature of this statement.
> 
> Found what I was looking for. I made it to around 8 I think the last time. Will definitely be giving it another spin.
> 
> http://mustbethistalltoride.com/2013/07/03/an-open-letter-to-****ty-husbands-vol-1/
> 
> 
> And now I must feign my own ignorance, and ask what is Mr Sam Adam's is a liar reference??
> 
> :wink2::wink2:


Mr Sam Adams refers to my self medication via beer. She is a fickle ***** and I'm always on the losing side of the equation. You're smarter than that, I'm a victim of habit. I know it doesn't help but yet again here I am. You've handled it much better. When I said be the best you I forgot to mention that I'm a hypocrite, I'll read your link. I've no doubt that it's something I should have been doing all along. im great with advise I'll never heed myself.

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> Mr Sam Adams refers to my self medication via beer. She is a fickle ***** and I'm always on the losing side of the equation. You're smarter than that, I'm a victim of habit. I know it doesn't help but yet again here I am. You've handled it much better. When I said be the best you I forgot to mention that I'm a hypocrite, I'll read your link. I've no doubt that it's something I should have been doing all along. im great with advise I'll never heed myself.
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


Morgan freeman meme
What he said

Re-red your post and imagine I had just posted it, and you read it for the first time, from me...


I am trying from the second I wake up to be not judgemental and make my first thoughts towards anythi g that does not go my way, not angrily negative...starting now.

I am with you on giving advice i dont take... Can dish and give but i cannot take. Once things dont go as i planned, welp, too bad for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Overzealous11

Voltaire2013 said:


> She is a fickle *****
> And I'm always on the losing side of the equation.
> You're smarter than that, I'm a victim of habit.
> I know it doesn't help but yet again here I am.
> You've handled it much better.
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


I edited your last post. And re-wrote it, using my own words.
Sam Adams, Devoors, she's all the same.
Here goes.



Yes, yes she is quite fickle.
I choose to be on the losing side of my equations.
None of us are smarter than that.
I am a victim of habit.
I know it doesn't help but yet again here I am.
I can always handle it much better than I have.


----------



## AliceA

I see you are well on your way to having this all figured out OP. Nice work. 

As I was reading this thread, my DH was peeking over my shoulder so I gave him a run down. As I said your wife was reading to the exclusion of all else, he made the point that I do that. I in turn pointed out that I'm well aware of my faults (complete and utter immersion in whatever book I start reading), which is why I generally don't pick one up more than once per month. I haven't gone down the ereader path for this very reason.

I'm guessing your wife will get to the point of knowing her weaknesses (which she already admits to) and finding a way to deal with them. As she gets older her taste in books will improve too. I went through that romance novel stage too and it gets boring after a while.


----------



## jld

Oz, there is a poster here, @SlowlyGoingCrazy, who might have some helpful advice for you. She shared this about resolving conflicts over housework in another thread:

_"We negotiated things out peacefully and lovingly. So instead of a nagging lecture we sat down, went over some things we both needed and came to agreements.
That did mean I had to let some things go and loosen up my standards a but so I don't get exactly what I had wanted but I am happy with what was agreed on.

But even then, had we not been meeting each other's needs in other places and building love, I think we'd come across issues again. 

If OP's wife feels like she's doing things because he told her to, eventually I think she'll slide back into her bad habits because she's not in the right mindset. If the other parts of her marriage aren't also being worked on and she's getting love busters and not enough EN filled, eventually you start feeling like why bother doing something for him

A subtle shift in perspective and negotiation and now the more I give the more I get and it's a positive cycle. 
I'm giving to build love, not giving to get back. Building love naturally makes people want to do things back for you."_


----------



## ButtPunch

Well I'm glad you are feeling good about your changes. It is important to clean up your side of the street. You are definitely pushing your wife away with your ****ish attitude.

Here's the rub. Amy changes you make you need to do for you. It appears you are making these changes to get a reaction fr your wife. Catalyst for change as you called it. 

This is textbook codependency. I'm sorry but you can't change your wife. You can't manipulate her to put the books down and clean the house to your standards because you quit being a ****. 

You are powerless to control her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Well I'm glad you are feeling good about your changes. It is important to clean up your side of the street. You are definitely pushing your wife away with your ****ish attitude.
> 
> Here's the rub. Amy changes you make you need to do for you. It appears you are making these changes to get a reaction fr your wife. Catalyst for change as you called it.
> 
> This is textbook codependency. I'm sorry but you can't change your wife. You can't manipulate her to put the books down and clean the house to your standards because you quit being a ****.
> 
> You are powerless to control her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is not talking about controlling her. He is talking about influencing her. Big difference.

I think it is just fine to make a change that will help your family, just because you want to be helpful to your family.

Way to take responsibility for yourself and your family, OP!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He is not talking about controlling her. He is talking about influencing her. Big difference.
> 
> I think it is just fine to make a change that will help your family, just because you want to be helpful to your family.
> 
> Way to take responsibility for yourself and your family, OP!


He absolutely is trying to control. 

JLD your definition of control seems to only include authoritarian methods. There are numerous ways to control. You can control with money, sex, being a victim, dominance and even by being super nice. 

The kings servant is still the kings servant, it doesnt matter if the king is nice or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> He absolutely is trying to control.
> 
> JLD your definition of control seems to only include authoritarian methods. There are numerous ways to control. You can control with money, sex, being a victim, dominance and even by being super nice.
> 
> The kings servant is still the kings servant, it doesnt matter if the king is nice or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he is threatening her with divorce if she does not start cleaning up, then I would agree he is trying to control her. I do not see that at this point. I think he realizes that how he treats her influences how she treats him. He is willing to take leadership in this area.

I do not understand what you are trying to say in your last line.

BP, I get the impression you have felt powerless in a relationship.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> If he is threatening her with divorce if she does not start cleaning up, then I would agree he is trying to control her. I do not see that at this point. I think he realizes that how he treats her influences how she treats him. He is willing to take leadership in this area.
> 
> I do not understand what you are trying to say in your last line.
> 
> BP, I get the impression you have felt powerless in a relationship.


Straight outta dictionary....

Control: To influence the behavior of a (person or animal): to get a (person or animal) to do what you want.

Yes I have been powerless in my relationship. I only have power over me. Control is an illusion. You can only influence others if they want to be influenced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Straight outta dictionary....
> 
> Control: To influence the behavior of a (person or animal): to get a (person or animal) to do what you want.
> 
> Yes I have been powerless in my relationship. I only have power over me. Control is an illusion. You can only influence others if they want to be influenced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This might explain it better:

Leadership: Control vs. Influence - Michael Hyatt

_. . . while you can’t control anyone (except perhaps yourself), you can influence nearly everyone. This is the essence of true leadership. By this definition, Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King were great leaders. They had control of virtually no one, yet their influence changed the course of history._


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> This might explain it better:
> 
> Leadership: Control vs. Influence - Michael Hyatt
> 
> _. . . while you can’t control anyone (except perhaps yourself), you can influence nearly everyone. This is the essence of true leadership. By this definition, Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King were great leaders. They had control of virtually no one, yet their influence changed the course of history._


But what you are teaching is control. If the OP did these changes for himself, and not for manipulation of his wife's behavior then it would be leadership.

You should get DeMellos book Awareness. The OP is living in #3s. Hallmark of codependency.

#1 Do something for yourself.
#2 Do something for others with no expectations
#3 Do something for others with an expected return.

#3 is a relationship killer

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> But what you are teaching is control. If the OP did these changes for himself, and not for manipulation of his wife's behavior then it would be leadership.
> 
> You should get DeMellos book Awareness. The OP is living in #3s. Hallmark of codependency.
> 
> #1 Do something for yourself.
> #2 Do something for others with no expectations
> #3 Do something for others with an expected return.
> 
> #3 is a relationship killer
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I certainly agree that doing something for others with a demanded return is likely to disappoint. Even expecting, if it is not clearly agreed to by both parties, may disappoint. It really is better to find out what each wants and is willing to give, and see what you can work out and both feel good about from there.

Did you read the link I posted?

I disagree I am teaching control. I think control techniques are risky, and largely unhealthy. I do think we influence others with our own behavior all the time, however.

He is in a relationship, and he wants certain things out of it. He cannot be sure he will get them, but he can try. And ideally he would try in as ethical a manner as possible. 

I think it is unrealistic to think we do not want anything from our relationships, BP. Otherwise why would we be in them?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> This might explain it better:
> 
> Leadership: Control vs. Influence - Michael Hyatt
> 
> _. . . while you can’t control anyone (except perhaps yourself), you can influence nearly everyone. This is the essence of true leadership. By this definition, Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King were great leaders. They had control of virtually no one, yet their influence changed the course of history._


I noticed you picked non-violent examples. Hitler, Napoleon and Alexander the Great were great leaders as well.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I noticed you picked non-violent examples. Hitler, Napoleon and Alexander the Great were great leaders as well.


I did not write the article. But yes, we want to focus on influence, not control.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I certainly agree that doing something for others with a demanded return is likely to disappoint. Even expecting, if it is not clearly agreed to by both parties, may disappoint. It really is better to find out what each wants and is willing to give, and see what you can work out and both feel good about from there.
> 
> Did you read the link I posted? YES
> 
> I disagree I am teaching control. I think control techniques are risky, and largely unhealthy. I do think we influence others with our own behavior all the time, however.
> 
> We disagree here because I think you are trying to manipulate and control. You are just doing the opposite of the bully way. Anytime you are doing something to change the behavior of someone else it is control.
> 
> He is in a relationship, and he wants certain things out of it. He cannot be sure he will get them, but he can try. And ideally he would try in as ethical a manner as possible.
> 
> I think it is unrealistic to think we do not want anything from our relationships, BP. Otherwise why would we be in them?
> 
> Of course he has needs, everyone does, but manipulating her to do what he wants may work short term but it will not last. She has to want to change. She has to clean her side of the street.
> 
> I see it all the time with people improperly employing the 180 on these threads in order to manipulate their spouses back into the marriage. It does work for a little while, but eventually things go back to the same.


----------



## jld

Influencing someone, particularly by sharing your thoughts with them, or modeling behavior, is not manipulating them, BP. Manipulating implies "artful" or "insidious" methods. Nothing artful or insidious here.

There is no control either. I offer an idea, and the other person decides what to do with it. Nothing hanging over anyone's head here.

I do agree that the 180, as I understand it, could be used as a control technique. I do not recommend it, myself, except when a divorce is already in the works. It is a way to detach and move on more quickly.


----------



## Anon Pink

@ButtPunch,

You've being either naive or obtuse!

Every interaction we have with others there is a tacit understanding that there will be reciprocation in one form or another. Only when we are alone do we behave in a way that is outcome independent wrt interpersonal relationships.

Ask your waitress for coffee wouldn't you assume she would bring it and if you failed to ask wouldn't you assume she wouldn't bring it? Ask her rudely wouldn't you assume you'd be getting lousy service but ask her nicely wouldn't you assume she'd be more attuned to taking care of you? Is that manipulation or influence?

In any marriage, there is reciprocity. Whether that reciprocity is informed and influenced by negativity or positivity or some mix thereof, changing how one person approaches is likely to change of how the other person approaches.

You don't think if a husband stops being a d!ck his wife might stop being a B!tch? Conversely if a wife stops b!tchinng and nagging wouldn't it be a logical reaction that her husband stops avoiding her?


----------



## AliceA

I've read some of the 180 technique, and I'm sure there are many different versions around by now, and I felt it was more about taking control back over yourself than anything.

When a person is constantly nagging and whining, upset and utterly at the mercy of the actions of their spouse, they aren't really in control I don't believe. They are like puppets on a string. Their spouse may not even be aware that they have so much control over the moods and behaviour of their unhappy spouse, but if they did, they would most likely wish their spouse wasn't so dependent on them.

So people say to the out of control spouse, "go do the 180, get a grip on yourself". I'm sure previous to that document, people were saying the exact same thing, but it would've been a lot more long winded.  

In cases like this I think the person doing the 180 starts to feel more in control over their own life again (gaining a bit more self-respect in the process). At that point they are naturally going to get more respect from their spouse and discussions of each person's expectations can proceed with a renewed hope for understanding and empathy.

I think there is one incredibly important step that people forget to make in marriage, they feel that the vows have said it all when in fact, it's all very open to interpretation; what exactly do they envision a successful marriage is like? Do they want to have this successful marriage? I didn't do this until many years into my marriage, after many difficult years of unwittingly walking down a different path to my DH. It was an exercise in the back of the book, "Getting the love you want" by H Hendrix. It really just makes sense doesn't it? If you start a long term project with someone, would you start with just some vague ideas of what you hope to achieve, or would you sit down and hash it all out so you are both on the same page? You would revisit this over the years as well, to make sure it stays up to date and relevant in each person's mind.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> @ButtPunch,
> 
> You've being either naive or obtuse!
> 
> You don't think if a husband stops being a d!ck his wife might stop being a B!tch? Conversely if a wife stops b!tchinng and nagging wouldn't it be a logical reaction that her husband stops avoiding her?


Name calling..... Anon Pink has arrived.

In a perfect world that would be the case. 
However, there are a lot of d!cks out there treated well by their wives hoping that some day they will change and vice versa.


----------



## ButtPunch

breeze said:


> I've read some of the 180 technique, and I'm sure there are many different versions around by now, and I felt it was more about taking control back over yourself than anything.


This is exactly what the 180 is supposed to accomplish. 

However, when it is used as a tool to repair a relationship it is a
manipulation ploy. That's why old timers say do the 180 for you not
to win your WS back.


----------



## AliceA

ButtPunch said:


> This is exactly what the 180 is supposed to accomplish.
> 
> However, when it is used as a tool to repair a relationship it is a
> manipulation ploy. That's why old timers say do the 180 for you not
> to win your WS back.


Yes, I can see how that distinction should be made, especially in marriages that are likely to fail no matter what you do. I also think it's going to be nigh impossible for a person who is trying to work through problems in their marriage with the end goal of staying married to separate so neatly their wish for a successful marriage with their desire to regain control over themselves. There will be some mix and it's not really the end of the world. I think if the desire to make it work is present in both people, they'll find a way. If it's missing in one or both, it'll inevitably fail and all the attempts to keep it going are just the death throes of the relationship. I think this particular couple have the desire to stay married, and with one of them willing to do the legwork, they'll be fine.


----------



## ButtPunch

breeze said:


> I think this particular couple have the desire to stay married, and with one of them willing to do the legwork, they'll be fine.


IE.....Remain in a codependent realtionship except the OP will try to not be a **** when his covert contracts don't work out for him like he wants them too.

AND THE RESENTMENT WILL BUILD


----------



## Red Sonja

ButtPunch said:


> However, there are a lot of d!cks out there treated well by their wives hoping that some day they will change and vice versa.


:iagree: Unfortunately, I was that woman for a number of years.


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## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> Name calling..... Anon Pink has arrived.
> 
> In a perfect world that would be the case.
> However, there are a lot of d!cks out there treated well by their wives hoping that some day they will change and vice versa.


And that's the point being made. When neither spouse is content, someone has to alter the way interaction takes place, thus the hopefully temporary imbalance of positive influence. If, after a certain time passes, the positive influence doesn't influence the other partner enough, THEN it's time to detatch.


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## AliceA

ButtPunch said:


> IE.....Remain in a codependent realtionship except the OP will try to not be a **** when his covert contracts don't work out for him like he wants them too.


Well, I don't see it that way, but we all have our own viewpoints. To me it feels like yours is a half empty viewpoint and mine is a half full; neither is wrong, just different. I did the legwork in my own relationship a few years ago now. We aren't perfect and we've had our highs and lows and there'll be more of them but at the end of the day I don't expect perfection, he doesn't expect perfection, and that can be the difference between contentment and disappointment.


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## jld

BP, are you afraid Oz's wife has too much power in the relationship? And now she will have even more?


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## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> And that's the point being made. When neither spouse is content, someone has to alter the way interaction takes place, thus the hopefully temporary imbalance of positive influence. If, after a certain time passes, the positive influence doesn't influence the other partner enough, THEN it's time to detatch.


It will work.....for a while. 

Just like the 180 works for a while.

The OPs wife likes her life. Why should she change? 
I bet she will enjoy the new and improved OP leaving her alone to enjoy her books.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

ButtPunch said:


> It will work.....for a while.
> 
> Just like the 180 works for a while.
> 
> The OPs wife likes her life. Why should she change?
> I bet she will enjoy the new and improved OP leaving her alone to enjoy her books.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's give her a chance, BP.


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## Overzealous11

ButtPunch said:


> It will work.....for a while.
> 
> Just like the 180 works for a while.
> 
> The OPs wife likes her life. Why should she change?
> I bet she will enjoy the new and improved OP leaving her alone to enjoy her books.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am concerned and cautious that this may indeed occur.
Trying not to jump to any conclusions and take it one day at a time.


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## Overzealous11

ButtPunch said:


> But what you are teaching is control. If the OP did these changes for himself, and not for manipulation of his wife's behavior then it would be leadership.
> 
> You should get DeMellos book Awareness. The OP is living in #3s. Hallmark of codependency.
> 
> #1 Do something for yourself.
> #2 Do something for others with no expectations
> #3 Do something for others with an expected return.
> 
> #3 is a relationship killer
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Darnit BP!

I am trying to make the 180 change for myself, with no expectations.
I will keep in mind the expected return is not hinged on me changing for myself.


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## StilltheStudent

Overzealous11 said:


> But if neither person changes, then no one will follow suit.
> This is always the case.
> I have to at least try and change my previous behavior, as it was not a winning formula.
> 
> 
> Am I prepared to diagnose my wife with an internet/book/video addiction? Perhaps..
> 
> But I am more prepared to admit that I am addicted to being a d*ck.
> That I revert back to that behavior every time I am faced with not getting my way, and have been doing so for years.
> 
> 
> I read earlier, that it is empowering for one person to be the catalyst of change.


Making sure your side of the relationship is strong, mature, and providing what it is supposed to be is a great first step.

It can also be used as a defense mechanism to avoid the real problems.

Do not be surprised that, after you fix your side of things, she makes absolutely zero changes.

From everything you have described your wife has a clear case of addictive behaviors which she is using to escape from things.

You cannot nice people out of addictions.

If you were 100% responsible for this then you could fix it.

I doubt that you are.

Good luck, but if I were you, I would start getting myself mentally prepared to actually have that "me or the books" conversation.


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## Blondilocks

OZ, How's it going?


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## SexWithinMarriage

Romance novels for women = porn for men. Treat it like it is: an affair of the mind. Put a stop to it now. You'll never be able to compete with the image the men in those books put up, just as wives can't compete with forever just-turned-18 girls in porn.

True intimacy is about so much more than those books portray.

That said, there is probably some work you can do in the area of being more dominant and leading more in your household. That's what she's really craving: strong leadership and security. Provide that, and you will find she doesn't need those books. But, don't wait for that. Put a stop to it now.


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## MachoMcCoy

SexWithinMarriage said:


> Romance novels for women = porn for men. Treat it like it is: an affair of the mind. Put a stop to it now. You'll never be able to compete with the image the men in those books put up, just as wives can't compete with forever just-turned-18 girls in porn.
> 
> True intimacy is about so much more than those books portray.
> 
> That said, there is probably some work you can do in the area of being more dominant and leading more in your household. That's what she's really craving: strong leadership and security. Provide that, and you will find she doesn't need those books. But, don't wait for that. Put a stop to it now.


I love it when this happens. Someone signs up and doesn't make a post for 18 months. Their ONE POST is directed at you. Listen to it. I don't know why here, but listen.


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## xxxooo

Crazy idea for you: Hire a budding writer to write a short romance about how a dud wife turns her life around and renews interest in her husband and family. Or, alternatively a story about a man with a dud wife who leaves her for a better life. Maybe it could be "choose your own adventure" style with two different endings.

Send it to her nook/kindle/whatever she uses to read.

Oh and I like the above advice of discontinuing doing 90% to her 10%. But, don't try to control her. Live your own life how you want--do what you did before you met her (except leave out the dating other women part). Like taking a vacation where ever you've always wanted to go and if she's not into it, bring a buddy, kid, parent, or sibling instead. Doesn't have to be somewhere she'd want to go. Visit a car museum or whatever. Just tell her, "[guest] and I are planning to go visit [place] on [date] and you are welcome to join us." Leave it at that, no pressure. If she doesn't respond, don't nag. Just follow your plans and go. You could even make plans in advance to drop the kids at a parents house.

Pick up a cool new hobby without worrying about if it's something she'd want to do too. Make your life about what you want. Maybe she'll eventually figure out you are leading a much more fulfilling life and join you (that's probably the person you were when she met you so it's not a big stretch).


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