# Atheist or Christian? does it affect how you forgive?



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

Long story short. 

Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs? 

Not judging anyone, trying to understand.


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm a Christian, but quite honestly I think I experienced forgiveness more like an atheist.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm not sure what forgiveness is.

And I don't want to be tied up in a situation in which I do "forgive" and then I am expected to deal with that person as if there is no history.

I have started to look at ways to manage conflict so that relationships don't have to be dissolved.

I just had an argument with a friend and I asked if I had touched upon a trigger so that I could avoid in the future.

Over the years, 2 women have told me to never to speak to them again. they have tried to contact me since then. sorry, but there are some things that I do take very literally.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't believe there is any requirement for an Atheist to forgive but there is for Christians.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I have no idea, as I can only see things from my perspective.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Christian here! Believe in total forgiveness on the Christian principle that if you don't forgive, then how can you expect God to forgive you? 

But it doesn't necessarily mean that we must forget and remain totally oblivious to it!
*


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, there is something wrong within you.

Atheists forgive because it is the right thing to do, for ourselves and for others. Hatred, anger and bitterness are no way to go through life.

Atheists wish for love and peace as well as (and sometimes better than) most religious people.

To answer your question, atheists are not "called upon" to forgive except by their own conscious decision to do the right thing.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Is your husband Christian?

I am a non religious Christian. Forgiveness is not a simple subject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

For Christians, the subject of forgiveness is almost a given...underscored by Jesus' support that forgiveness is indeed very important...even saying that it is not only important to forgive others, but to be forgiven as well.

I think it comes down to what we think our rights are in terms of justice. Now there are some downright unforgiving people out there, usually with a background of trauma, that "seethingly" and irrationally mishandle every perceived wrong that comes their way. Others seem to take their hits and let it slide.

To me, forgiveness is an act of freedom and worship. It is freeing, because not only are you unshackling yourself from emotional slavery, you are also laying down your rights to satisfaction, acknowledging to someone else that you release them of any perceived debt. Being wronged does not earn you superior status to lord it over others.

It is also worship, because forgiveness can be a very painful process when natural inclination calls for swift justice...and it is important that we have self-respecting boundaries and a degree of social justice. Still, there are instances where an individual won't admit or accept he/she had wronged you...or even care. Worship seeks out to emulate how Jesus was extremely wronged...framed, whipped, mocked, nailed to a structure...when he was ridiculed until he breathed his last...but not before seeking forgiveness for those "...who know not what they do." 

There are times when there is no justice, when people and situations can be deemed quite 'unforgivable'. It is those times that a person, a people, a community can continue to heal...when they choose not to absorb the "wrong" into their identity and social DNA...all achieved by following Christ's ultimate example of laying down your rights for satisfaction.

So does Christianity have the whole bag on forgiveness? No, many people have the capability and capacity to "let it go". Forgiveness, or, the ancient concept of releasing one from their debts, is almost an ingrained concept in humanity. Believers just acknowledge that God had put that desire in everyone.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> Believers just *believe* that God had put that desire in everyone.



Fixed it for Ya!


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Unsureone 2-14-2015……..TAM
> *Atheist or Christian? does it affect how you forgive?*
> Long story short.
> Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs?
> Not judging anyone, trying to understand


Christ, being divine in my opinion, had a HUGE role in my forgiveness. God showed me His grace and helped me. *My natural feelings were to NOT forgive *but because I was taught to trust Jesus to tell me the truth I began the journey of forgiveness. First, I believed that God would forgive me if I forgave. Second, I believed that God would bless me for forgiving. Third, I wanted to be free from resentments and vengeance that was eating at my soul and making me bitter. Forth, I wanted to give my children the best support that I could.

I began my journey of forgiveness by obeying God, not allowing my feelings to dictate, but by concentrating on His words and putting away the thoughts that were opposite. I soaked up His word and became hungry for His peace. I associated with people that had experience with my problem and believed that God keeps His promises. The big challenge came when I had to face my decisions and actions with only me and God.* Either I was going to trust and obey or I was not; it is that blunt!* As I struggled in the months and years ahead I got peace even when in pain. The resentment and vengeance left and eventually God blessed me and my family.

A great bonus that I got was that I now believe more deeply that God forgives me my infidelity against Him and that He will eventually show you that He keeps His promises. This is very comforting and adds a LOT of security. Also, because I forgave my wife, my teen daughter, who at D-day told me to go have an affair to get even and then moved out of the home when her mom came back home, my daughter later told me several times how much she loves, admires, and respects me because I forgave; she still tells me that after all these years. That is priceless! My sons do also but they are not as vocal about that they just show me by their actions.

My decision to forgive began in the same year as D-day in 1987. I have had lots of troubles in the last 28 years with one of my children being involved with hard drugs for many years and other trials and hard times but the fact that God kept His promises has been the reason that I have endured. All those troubles in the last 28 years are also offset by many blessing from God. My father died 6 months ago and I have handled it very well and I give the credit to the fact that I believed in the God that my father taught me about and that I forgave one of the worst pain in marriage; infidelity. I know where my father is.

If the only way that I could have the security and blessings that my faith has given me was by my wife’s infidelity then I would have it done all over again. The loss and pain of the infidelity was terrible but the gain in what matters for eternity over shadows that pain.

*Christianity is the reason that I have such a very good life. God owes me nothing and I owe Him everything!*


----------



## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

I can only speak for myself, and I've never been an atheist but I haven't always been a Christian and I know that only a few years ago there would have been no way I would have forgiven my WW. I would have sent her packing for sure. I had always told myself that's what I would do if if I ever caught her cheating. 

Now forgiveness doesn't mean I had to reconcile, but it did play a big part. Without forgiveness I don't believe you can reconcile. But I could have easily forgiven her and sent her on her way. Even with forgiveness there are consequences for your actions, at least in this life.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Forgiveness is just hard. I have never been an atheist but I am a Christian and I find it a struggle to forgive. Despite the fact that is a major part of my religious belief.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. Forgiveness does NOT mean you have to stay married. If Mrs. Conan cheated, I would forgive her but she would no longer have access to my marital intimacy, physical and emotional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Pooh Bear said:


> Forgiveness is just hard. I have never been an atheist but I am a Christian and I find it a struggle to forgive. Despite the fact that is a major part of my religious belief.


Me too. And it only came with time, not faith, although I am ashamed to admit that.


----------



## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

If I was religious I would have divorced or married another women ( my religion allows it) .

non religious forgive better .


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Considering there are so many schools of thought concerning Christianity and absolutely no ethical foundation that guides atheism I don't think there can be any objectively consistent effect on forgiveness.


----------



## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Christian here! Believe in total forgiveness on the Christian principle that if you don't forgive, then how can you expect God to forgive you?
> 
> But it doesn't necessarily mean that we must forget and remain totally oblivious to it!
> *


Absolutely ....My hobby is the study of the worlds Religions...ALL of them state ..We all MUST forgive the one who offended us...REGARDLESS of the offence..WE must forgive....

But NONE of them state I must reconcile...or EVEN attempt to R..

A great quote I found...I found to be true..."One must never confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation....For they are NOT the same..."


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Is your husband Christian?
> 
> I am a non religious Christian. Forgiveness is not a simple subject.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.

He acts more Christian than most. 

I was raised Christian.


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

As an inbetweener theres nothing so far in my life ive been unable to forgive

The hard part is getting to accept the new paradigm


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, there is something wrong within you.
> 
> Atheists forgive because it is the right thing to do, for ourselves and for others. Hatred, anger and bitterness are no way to go through life.
> 
> ...


How do you know what other and/or most atheists believe? It seems to me that each atheist decides to believe whatever they choose to believe.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm an atheist and I forgive because people are human, and humans are imperfect and screw up, sometimes in horrible ways. Also because I don't want to carry the bitterness around.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

unsureone said:


> NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> 
> He acts more Christian than most.
> 
> I was raised Christian.


What do you believe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> How do you know what other and/or most atheists believe? It seems to me that each atheist decides to believe whatever they choose to believe.


Most atheists are humanists and humanists do have a set common values.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> unsureone said:
> 
> 
> > NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> ...



I believe forgiveness is for the person hurt more than the WS because it allows them to move forward. Accept it happened. But not forget. Even if you don't reconcile. I believe Christians have help from god. Without him, I don't know where the strength comes from other than your own self. 

I have forgiven many things that I never thought I could or really wanted to (abuse etc.). But It does release anger. Not the hurt or pain.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

Mr Blunt said:


> > By Unsureone 2-14-2015……..TAM
> > *Atheist or Christian? does it affect how you forgive?*
> > Long story short.
> > Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs?
> ...



You have been blessed because of your faith. I thank you for post your.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Me too. And it only came with time, not faith, although I am ashamed to admit that.


We're human right? God knows that.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

unsureone said:


> NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> 
> He acts more Christian than most.
> 
> I was raised Christian.


Does that mean he's an atheist? He may not be Christian, that doesn't mean he's an atheist.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

unsureone said:


> NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> 
> He acts more Christian than most.
> 
> I was raised Christian.


Are you trying to forgive him, usureone, or is he trying to forgive you? Or is this a general question?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

When self-righteous religious people cheat I laugh and laugh and laugh. At least I used to. Now I don't think adultery is funny at all. In many ways it's worse than murder. It's one of the most heinous crimes a married person can commit. Literally the most severe level of betrayal that a human being can do.

Even worse for religious people because they're betraying their holy matrimony and God himself.


----------



## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

Forgive, Maybe 
Forget, No


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

Pooh Bear said:


> unsureone said:
> 
> 
> > NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> ...


Yes,he said he was. I dont tell many people.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

Pooh Bear said:


> unsureone said:
> 
> 
> > NO. He is not. I found out in the sessions you have before you get married (having brain fog for the name) I was shocked because he went to church with me all time.
> ...



Both, really. And gain understanding, and so I able to see it from his perspective.


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, there is something wrong within you.
> 
> Atheists forgive because it is the right thing to do, for ourselves and for others. Hatred, anger and bitterness are no way to go through life.
> 
> ...



Generalize much lately?


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Most atheists are humanists and humanists do have a set common values.


And again!


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I cannot speak for other Christians nor atheist's or humanists. I forgive because of the incredible healing power that it provides. A "Christian" who chooses not to forgive inhibits his or her ability to grow spiritually and be directed spiritually.

There is great depth in forgiveness. Ultimately it heals the heart and enlarges its capacity to overlook the shortcomings of others. It humbles to the soul and generally speaking makes us better stewards and servants of those we come in contact with daily and those that are in need of our service.

Some know of my story and my struggles with my W. Thanks to many here and my religious foundation I am further along in rectifying my circumstances than I ever would have been had I chosen not to forgive her for her actions both real and perceived. 

There are times I am at peace and sometimes I still find myself raging. No matter how low I have been I have always been able to rely on my relationship with God to elevate me to places well beyond the human condition.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Unsureone

I am a Christian with a strong belief in God. My WW had a six month long affair with her co-worker. My d-day was January 20, 2014. Upon learning of her affair I was in shock. This later turned to anger and rage. During the anger and rage I believe I was anything but Christian. I eventually turned my back on God which further devastated me. I became suicidal and full of rage. My faith and belief in God was gone completely. I was fortunate to have a person who tried to keep God in front of me, but I blamed God for my situation. Don't misunderstand me, I blamed my WW and OM the same. I was at rock bottom sitting near railroad tracks waiting for the train to come. Three trains in total came by and I couldn't do it. I couldn't gather the strength to end my pain. 

I was lost, confused, and devastated. How could God lead my WW to do this? How could He allow me to suffer through pain of this magnitude? We are taught that God only requires us to have faith, believe in Him, trust in Him, and love Him. God also gives us free will. So it was ok that I be angry with God and blame Him, He will forgive. I have found my way back to God which has allowed me to forgive my WW. Many here may disagree with what I say but it is my interpretation. I do not project my religious beliefs on anyone nor do I engage in religious wars. Religion is personal to me but I felt compelled to answer you on forgiveness. What does forgiveness mean to you? Your definition could be different from mine. So I will tell you my definition of forgiveness.

Forgiveness to me is when I can see the person and no longer be angry, wish them well and hold nothing against what they did to me. An example would be if you cut me off in traffic, I speed up after you to display my finger to you but I don't. I hold nothing against you and just continue on my way. A light example I agree, forgiveness towards my WW took much longer. Her OM I will most likely need more, no, much more time. 

Forgiveness is different for everyone, I have forgiven my WW but I will never forget. I did not have to offer reconciliation to my WW, that is a gift from me as the bible says I am free to divorce. My belief in God has a supporting role in offering forgiveness but it mostly came down to whether my WW was willing to correct her wrongs, do the heavy lifting, and accept the gift I offered. My WW has worked very hard and to be honest I didn't think she had it in her, but she has proven me wrong. 

So I believe religion has helped me through since I have found God again. I will admit it has taken me a long time to determine it was I who turned my back on God. I am in a better place now because of God. This is just my simple opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Agnostic here. I forgive to let go of the anger and resentment from acting like an anchor. If I didn't, it would keep me from moving on with life and keep me stuck.


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I am a non religious Christian. Forgiveness is not a simple subject.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm an unrepentant atheist, yet all I can say to this is AMEN BROTHER!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RClawson said:


> Generalize much lately?





RClawson said:


> And again!


While I admit that was indeed generalizations, I'm not sure I get your point? Do you disagree with my statements? Do you have an opposing thought or POV? Not sure how you, an LDS Christian, can take offense to my generalizing atheism and humanism. Unless I've made it make too much sense and you prefer to see atheism in a derogatory light...:scratchhead:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Atheist or Christian, humans evolved as a tribal species. We don't do well as solitary organisms. Thus, if forgiveness or some set of rules helps to maintain the tribal order that is paramount to our survival both as individuals and a species, we will do it. 

We do tend to render suspicion of those outside our tribe and as such it is far more important to forgive within the tribe than to do the same for those outside our group. So it is probably just as important for atheist within their group to forgive as it is for Christians to forgive within their group. It is much harder to do so outside the group, but not impossible for both.


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> While I admit that was indeed generalizations, I'm not sure I get your point? Do you disagree with my statements? Do you have an opposing thought or POV? Not sure how you, an LDS Christian, can take offense to my generalizing atheism and humanism. Unless I've made it make too much sense and you prefer to see atheism in a derogatory light...:scratchhead:


I would not say I was offended by your post but more surprised by the generalizations you made. Not your usual style.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

X-B said:


> Forgive, Maybe
> Forget, No




With modification, it's like my best old elementary school friend now Father Léon Dubois would say, "forgive them and forget them my son".


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

unsureone. If I recall some of your posts. You cheated. So it would be prey obvious what you need forgiven for. What about your H?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lostmyreligion said:


> I'm an unrepentant atheist, yet all I can say to this is AMEN BROTHER!


Love it!! &#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unsureone said:


> Long story short.
> 
> Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs?
> 
> Not judging anyone, trying to understand.


I'm an atheist and I'm the most forgiving person I know. Religion has nothing to do with being a compassionate, caring person.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> unsureone. If I recall some of your posts. You cheated. So it would be prey obvious what you need forgiven for. What about your H?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Throwing my past against me when he already accepted I had one when we started dating. Being verbally abusive when angry, I understand anger, fighting but there is a HUGE difference. And possibly gas lighting? 

I need to forgive him for those things so I do not harbor anger towards him. 

Yes I cheated. Yes I deserve to be yelled at, but daily, no. For things I did before him? He knew. Not details but he knew. The details do not give him a right to say what he says to me.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

drifting on said:


> Unsureone
> 
> I am a Christian with a strong belief in God. My WW had a six month long affair with her co-worker. My d-day was January 20, 2014. Upon learning of her affair I was in shock. This later turned to anger and rage. During the anger and rage I believe I was anything but Christian. I eventually turned my back on God which further devastated me. I became suicidal and full of rage. My faith and belief in God was gone completely. I was fortunate to have a person who tried to keep God in front of me, but I blamed God for my situation. Don't misunderstand me, I blamed my WW and OM the same. I was at rock bottom sitting near railroad tracks waiting for the train to come. Three trains in total came by and I couldn't do it. I couldn't gather the strength to end my pain.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing. 

My faith is what keeps me here.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

turnera said:


> I'm an atheist and I'm the most forgiving person I know. Religion has nothing to do with being a compassionate, caring person.


You may be the greatest person on earth, but there IS a difference and it's a huge difference. Has nothing to do with compassion are caring. The topic is "forgiveness". You may be a forgiving person, but if you are, it's because that's your choice. You can choose to not be forgiving tomorrow. You can choose to forgive some people but not others, choose to forgive some offenses but not others. 
Christians have a written mandate from the Creator of the Universe to forgive. It is not an individual choice as it is for Atheists. You may forgive because you think it's a nice thing to do or because it seems logical to do so. Christians are ordered to forgive even when it doesn't make sense, even when they don't feel like it, not some just some Christians, not just some offenses, not just some of the time. 
The biggest difference is I have an easily found, easily understood, easily explainable standard that is written in black and white. My mind may change with the wind but that standard does not. Do you have a written standard for your conduct that does not change? 
Without a standard, you are left to decide for yourself whether your conduct is acceptable or not and just about everyone with a pulse believes they are a "good" person. Almost every person believes they are pretty smart. Almost every person believes they are fair, decent, and compassionate.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Most atheists are humanists and humanists do have a set common values.


So humanists have a doctrine that they follow?


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So humanists have a doctrine that they follow?





EleGirl said:


> So humanists have a doctrine that they follow?


Yes.

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.


Humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

As an atheist, I flnd myself very accepting of the possibility that I may never get a complete answer as to the why of it all. 

Not that there isn't one. 

Just that it might not fully come to light within my lifetime.

And after that, what the hell does it matter?


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

unsureone said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> My faith is what keeps me here.



Unsureone

I'm probably not qualified to give you advice but I have read your story. I am saddened by the relationship you have with your husband. The pain that you both feel and the arguing witnessed by your children. I can only say I hope you all find peace and happiness in your future.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Yep, I am a humanist agnostic. I do help out others for the benefit of the human race. A study showed a dog is more likely to rescue a dog before it rescues a human. I forgive others because it benefits me and it might benefit them as well. I have no resentment towards my ex-fiance for cheating on me, and after going through some anger, I was able to let it go and move on. Whether she is happy or not, that is up to her to figure out, but I have no animosity towards her. I see her as a highly dysfunctional person. She grew up in an abusive environment and it may have a correlation with the way she turned out. Correlation does not mean cause, but there is some relation to her behavior.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Christians are ordered to forgive even when it doesn't make sense, even when they don't feel like it, not some just some Christians, not just some offenses, not just some of the time.


Hmmm. Nobody ordered me to forgive. I didn't have to be instructed to be decent. I just chose to. Imagine that.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> So humanists have a doctrine that they follow?



I believe most groups have tacit and in some cases written set of rules (forgiveness within the group may be one of them) to follow. It gives one a sense of belonging and security within our tribe. As to whether there is some humanist doctrine, I have no idea. I typical think most people fall within a narrower defined group than some ambiguous term set by an outsiders definition. 

The term Christian is an outsider term rather than some self-determined label. Most Jews would self identify with a sect of Judaism over just being jewish. Most Polynesians would tell you of the specific group rather than the larger label. We are often labeled by outsiders, but usually identify with a smaller sect of that label and thus each will have some rules of the group (if we wish to remain). I think we lend greater grace and forgiveness within our tribe than we do to outsiders, right or wrong it is who we are as a species.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

drifting on said:


> unsureone said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for sharing.
> ...



Yes it's sad. It's my fault. Sadly, I have been thinking about giving up for my kids and my husband. I asked him for a list of what I needed to do (as suggested by another poster) to reconcile if at all possible. He said he is thinking about it.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

turnera said:


> Hmmm. Nobody ordered me to forgive. I didn't have to be instructed to be decent. I just chose to. Imagine that.


And you've chosen to forgive everyone for all offenses and you know right now that you always will, regardless of how you happen to feel 40 years from now? As I previously stated, even most serial killers believe they are decent humans. If one wishes to argue that Atheists, in general, are as compassionate as believers, the easiest way to disprove that is to look at charitable giving rates between the two groups. Atheists didn't give us schools, hospitals, emancipation of slaves, poverty relief programs, though our country has always had Atheists. Where's all the collective evidence of Atheist charity and compassion?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> And you've chosen to forgive everyone for all offenses and you know right now that you always will, regardless of how you happen to feel 40 years from now? As I previously stated, even most serial killers believe they are decent humans. If one wishes to argue that Atheists, in general, are as compassionate as believers, the easiest way to disprove that is to look at charitable giving rates between the two groups. Atheists didn't give us schools, hospitals, emancipation of slaves, poverty relief programs, though our country has always had Atheists. Where's all the collective evidence of Atheist charity and compassion?


Huh? Emancipation? Try the Crusades.

Schools, hospitals, etc. come from the ORGANIZATIONS, not from individual donations. And how many of you would continue to tithe if it wasn't tax deductible? So I assume you've done some sort of scientific research to determine that we non-Christians don't donate? Think again.

You're just trying to claim moral superiority. Doesn't cut it.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Mom's side is...baptist? 

Dad's side is also baptist I believe. Or in a cult. If I remember correctly, they go to a church where the pastor lives like he pulls a 6-figure salary. 

Mom's side has disowned me. So them baptist are disowning and not forgiving me. 

Dad's side, likely learning about all the fights dad and I had, have also stopped talking to me. And the alcoholism is not helping. 
Also not forgiving me. 

Religion doesn't play into it all.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

turnera said:


> Huh? Emancipation? Try the Crusades.
> 
> Schools, hospitals, etc. come from the ORGANIZATIONS, not from individual donations. And how many of you would continue to tithe if it wasn't tax deductible? So I assume you've done some sort of scientific research to determine that we non-Christians don't donate? Think again.
> 
> You're just trying to claim moral superiority. Doesn't cut it.


Yeah, Emancipation. The movement was initiated by religious people. My ancestor was among them. You approve of alcohol and drug rehab programs? They were also started by religious types. You like relief programs for the poor? The disabled? The elderly? All started by religious folks. You like universities? Their origins are in religious institutions. Just for your own edification, charitable giving and tithing by religious types on this continent predated the federal income tax by a few hundred years, so with or without the Almighty Fed tax code, Christians who tithe still would. How many Atheists tithe?


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> And you've chosen to forgive everyone for all offenses and you know right now that you always will, regardless of how you happen to feel 40 years from now? As I previously stated, even most serial killers believe they are decent humans. If one wishes to argue that Atheists, in general, are as compassionate as believers, the easiest way to disprove that is to look at charitable giving rates between the two groups. Atheists didn't give us schools, hospitals, emancipation of slaves, poverty relief programs, though our country has always had Atheists. Where's all the collective evidence of Atheist charity and compassion?


You seem to believe just because one has a religion, that makes one more moral than the next person. 
WRONG!!!

Let me prove this wrong with pictures.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Nations with political models based on atheism are also responsible for genocide on a scale that no Christian or Muslim nation could ever dream of matching. Apparently the compassion and charitable nature of atheism didn't catch on in the areas where atheism has been practiced the most.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Broken at 20 said:


> You seem to believe just because one has a religion, that makes one more moral than the next person.
> WRONG!!!
> 
> Let me prove this wrong with pictures.
> ...


You have no idea what I think. Not all people who profess to be Christians are charitable but all are expected to be. I know of know written guidance that commands 100% of Atheists to give at least 10% of their wealth to the poor (voluntarily). I know of no admonition given to atheists that they are personally responsible to care for widows, orphans, the sick and injured. 
As a practical matter, I don't see a lot of Atheist hospitals and haven't personally met any atheist missionaries. If you have the misfortune to be crippled or starving in a foreign land (or in the United States) the odds of an atheist showing up to give you relief will be very remote. 
Whether a Christian gives because they feel morally obligated or whether they just feel like it, the money is still green and it still relieves suffering just as well. The simple and undisputed fact is that Christians do, on average, give more to charitable causes than do atheists. They also give more of their volunteer time.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Nations with political models based on atheism are also responsible for genocide on a scale that no Christian or Muslim nation could ever dream of matching. Apparently the compassion and charitable nature of atheism didn't catch on in the areas where atheism has been practiced the most.



Many religious text are filled with justifiable genocide. And, sure one could point to the modern communistic societies that not only indoctrinated on the premise of atheism but actively persecuted those that did not comply. In both cases it had less to do with the belief or not belief, it had more to do with maintaining order of the in group and the supposed threat of the "other". It has not changed too much other than in our current society, we come down to name calling rather than actual persecution.

We are tribal


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> Many religious text are filled with justifiable genocide. And, sure one could point to the modern communistic societies that not only indoctrinated on the premise of atheism but actively persecuted those that did not comply. In both cases it had less to do with the belief or not belief, it had more to do with maintaining order of the in group and the supposed threat of the "other". It has not changed too much other than in our current society, we come down to name calling rather than actual persecution.
> 
> We are tribal


So, which has the largest body count over the past 100 years?


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> So, which has the largest body count over the past 100 years?


This is impossible to answer. 

Most people would probably say Nazi Germany. The Holocaust carried out by the SS. And Nazi Germany was mostly protestant and Catholic before and during WWII. 
But the SS, as the war progressed, had its armies drawn from Germany, Austria, parts of France, Czechoslovakia, Romania, etc. So we can't lay it all on Germany. 

Communist Russsia? No idea what their religion was. 
No idea about the death total either. No real records have really been published. And records have also been falsified. Stalin did kill a lot of people. 
Can we also lay the deaths of unarmed divisions sent against Germans in WWII at Stalin? 

How about America? The melting pot for religion. 
We abused and killed the Indians. We'll never know how many of them we killed. 
But you said 100 years. 
Well, we did support dozens of dictators after WWII because they weren't communist. Dictators that were cruel, that killed their own people, that oppressed their own people. Can their deaths be at our feet, or theirs? 
And we did drop 2 Atomic bombs...

Japan also, quite literally, raped China during WWII. No idea what their religion was. 
They killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese, and Filipino people. Men, women, and children all killed. It wasn't long and torturous like the death camps, but it sure wasn't painless. 
And then Unit 737, which killed who knows how many thousands, just like the SS death camps, except more cruel. Except the masterminds behind the unit were never brought to justice because the US wanted the information Unit 737 discovered. 


So...guess we should call it a tie. 

And we should probably conclude the history lesson and thread jack there.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Mao could claim responsibility for about 45 million. Stalin, around 20 million. Pol Pot, about 1.6 million.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> So, which has the largest body count over the past 100 years?




毛泽东 communist China, however he killed more than just those that were followers of any particular religious sect. He like many before him were all looking for a purified tribe (country). It had less to do with atheism in particular than it was just a tribalism.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

To just match the three examples I gave, the U.S. would have had to exterminate every human being living in the United States in 1900.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> 毛泽东 communist China, however he killed more than just those that were followers of any particular religious sect. He like many before him were all looking for a purified tribe (country). It had less to do with atheism in particular than it was just a tribalism.


Was Mao an atheist?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense. Stalin


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Was Mao an atheist?



He was, but he was also Han Chinese, he was also from southern China which was always different in culture than northern Chinese... The list could go on. It was more about attempting to build a monolithic society rather than just him being atheist. It is about tribalism. 

How would describe an American?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense. Stalin



There have been many atheist who have said the same and not killed a single individual.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

How about Stalin and Pol Pot, were they atheists or were they also Han Chinese?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> There have been many atheist who have said the same and not killed a single individual.


And had they the same power as Stalin, would they not have killed just as many, maybe more?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> How about Stalin and Pol Pot, were they atheists or were they also Han Chinese?



Again, let's look at other parts of who they were... Pol Pot, was an anti-monarch and key family members put to death by the previous monarchy. Stalin, too was a high ranking soldier and an anti-royalist. Both were also from outside ethnic groups that again were looking for a monolithic society. It will always be a failure to look for monocultural set of rules in large complex societies. In the end all three failed.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> And had they the same power as Stalin, would they not have killed just as many, maybe more?



Tribalism. It is all about tribalism. Early H. sapiens were likely as much of atheist in the evidence we have other than they saw all animals with a unique power or spirit. They were tribal and wars were rare.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/religion_nazi_germany.htm

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html


As for forgiveness, I don't care if the person who offended me is religious or not. I don't care if they believe in one, many, or no God/s. It's all in the expression of their remorse, repentance, apology and the amends they've made. When those are not known or present, it's nigh on impossible to forgive. Those feelings of hurt, frustration, confusion, doubt, disgust for the perpetrator, and triggers just don't go away. The offenses can be offered as a sacrifice and unusually heavy cross to bear. Graces bestowed can help heal, if we are open to them. Counseling can help. Any way you go, it takes work to forgive the most grievous personal offenses. The severity of the particular offense will vary as much as individuals.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

There are people that call themselves Christians that do the opposite of what Christ taught and demonstrated. For those of you that delight in posting anti-Christian posts (see reprints below) I would tell you that my standard and God is Jesus and not Christian people, religion, or non-religions. To me Christ is the perfect example as to what we should strive for. I strive to please Him and follow His teachings but come up short from time to time. However, there has not been one time when I followed him with perseverance and patience that He did not prove to be true in his teachings and promises.

As for the topic of this thread, Jesus not only taught forgiveness but demonstrated it in a most dramatic way. In other words, He could talk the talk because He walked the walk!

*Do you anti-Christian posters post against religions and people or against Jesus?*



Anti-Christian posts

Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, there is something wrong within you.

non-religious forgive better

Huh? Emancipation? Try the Crusades.

Hmmm. Nobody ordered me to forgive. I didn't have to be instructed to be decent. I just chose to. Imagine that.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

unsureone said:


> Long story short.
> 
> Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs?
> 
> Not judging anyone, trying to understand.


The definitive answer is; no, yes, maybe, never, sometimes, it might, it might not, etc.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr Blunt said:


> There are people that call themselves Christians that do the opposite of what Christ taught and demonstrated.
> 
> *Do you anti-Christian posters post against religions and people or against Jesus?*


Obviously, religions and people, not Jesus.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> Again, let's look at other parts of who they were... Pol Pot, was an anti-monarch and key family members put to death by the previous monarchy. Stalin, too was a high ranking soldier and an anti-royalist. Both were also from outside ethnic groups that again were looking for a monolithic society. It will always be a failure to look for monocultural set of rules in large complex societies. In the end all three failed.


And yet the one common factor each of these three has is they were all atheists and all responsible for mass murder. One could credibly throw Hitler into that group because he considered Nazism the state religion (essentially making himself a god). Anyone can make noise or say whatever they will, but the evidence quite clearly demonstrates that those who deny the existence of God have a record of disposing of humans in ghastly numbers that no Christian ever dreamed of. How many of you atheists will go on record as calling abortion morally wrong?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> How many Atheists tithe?


Probably at least as many as Christians. They just do it directly. Them and all the people from all the OTHER religions in the world.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> And yet the one common factor each of these three has is they were all atheists and all responsible for mass murder. One could credibly throw Hitler into that group because he considered Nazism the state religion (essentially making himself a god). Anyone can make noise or say whatever they will, but the evidence quite clearly demonstrates that those who deny the existence of God have a record of disposing of humans in ghastly numbers that no Christian ever dreamed of. How many of you atheists will go on record as calling abortion morally wrong?



I guess in the same way one could read the Judaism accounts of mass murder 

in the book of Deuteronomy, Joshua and 1 Samuel

Christian crusades

Current Muslim crusades

What do they all have in common? The God of Abraham. Ugh.


----------



## itskaren (Dec 28, 2011)

unsureone said:


> Long story short.
> 
> Does our religion or non religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive? Especially affairs?
> 
> Not judging anyone, trying to understand.


I am 100% atheist. After 2.3 years I am still trying to find it in myself to forgive my husband for his affair. I just can't do it so far. I just find the whole thing very hypocritical if you go to church on Sundays and worship 'God'' you have the balls to do this to your partner? I just don't get it. 

How can one sit in a place of worship each week and pretend to be a good Christian person when you are lying and cheating? It just makes no sense to me.:scratchhead:


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

itskaren said:


> I am 100% atheist. After 2.3 years I am still trying to find it in myself to forgive my husband for his affair. I just can't do it so far. I just find the whole thing very hypocritical if you go to church on Sundays and worship 'God'' you have the balls to do this to your partner? I just don't get it.
> 
> How can one sit in a place of worship each week and pretend to be a good Christian person when you are lying and cheating? It just makes no sense to me.:scratchhead:


I do love it when filthy cheaters engage in their nasty dirty little deeds then think they can run to church and ask the man upstairs to forgive them and all is well. I'll laugh if they find out he's not that forgiving.


----------



## MrsDraper (May 27, 2013)

In my church, I was told that cheating or abuse is a reason for divorce. And a reason that would NOT be looked down upon in the church (except for the cheating / abusing party).


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> I guess in the same way one could read the Judaism accounts of mass murder
> 
> in the book of Deuteronomy, Joshua and 1 Samuel
> 
> ...


You and Obama have to go back to the Middle Ages to talk ugly about Christians?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> You and Obama have to go back to the Middle Ages to talk ugly about Christians?



Nope, I just wanted to deal in the same common theme comparison you placed on Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. All of it is ugly. 

Honestly, I have nothing against Christians and I don't revel in the down fall of any its followers. However, I also did not get out and publicly cheer the death of bin laden. Not that I was against the military actions taken, it simply is that some of us who are atheist are not blood thirsty infidels. It truly is a tribal thing.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> And yet the one common factor each of these three has is they were all atheists and all responsible for mass murder. One could credibly throw Hitler into that group because he considered Nazism the state religion (essentially making himself a god). Anyone can make noise or say whatever they will, but the evidence quite clearly demonstrates that those who deny the existence of God have a record of disposing of humans in ghastly numbers that no Christian ever dreamed of. How many of you atheists will go on record as calling abortion morally wrong?


unbelievable, there is no limit to the number of posts like this that you can make that would ever change our minds. We are atheists. Plain and simple. If you take issue with that, that's not our problem. I personally don't give a rat's *** that you're Christian. As far as I'm concerned, if it makes you happy, more power to you. And just an FYI, this type of moral posturing is one of the main reasons as to why I'm atheist: I simply cannot identify with this type of message. That, and the idea of a Creator God just seems completely nonsensical to me, but since the theme seems to be about throwing theist testosterone around like a roided up jock at a Dungeons & Dragons convention, I thought I'd do you a favor and let you know it's a waste of your time...and ours.

The fact that I'm atheist didn't factor into my divorcing my xWW at all. She cheated, so I divorced her. That's all there was to it.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Best. Line. EVER!!!!



toolforgrowth said:


> ... That, and the idea of a Creator God just seems completely nonsensical to me, but since the theme seems to be about *throwing theist testosterone around like a roided up jock at a Dungeons & Dragons convention,* I thought I'd do you a favor and let you know it's a waste of your time...and ours.


:lol:

Bravo!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> There are people that call themselves Christians that do the opposite of what Christ taught and demonstrated. For those of you that delight in posting anti-Christian posts (see reprints below) I would tell you that my standard and God is Jesus and not Christian people, religion, or non-religions. To me Christ is the perfect example as to what we should strive for. I strive to please Him and follow His teachings but come up short from time to time. However, there has not been one time when I followed him with perseverance and patience that He did not prove to be true in his teachings and promises.
> 
> As for the topic of this thread, Jesus not only taught forgiveness but demonstrated it in a most dramatic way. In other words, He could talk the talk because He walked the walk!
> 
> ...



The Bolded line you took from my post. I don't see anything even SLIGHTLY anti-christian in that line.

Are you really suggesting that if you had been raised in the jungle and no one ever introduced you to the Jesus story or the bible you would have no concept of those virtues?

If so, then there is something wrong with you.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

toolforgrowth said:


> I personally don't give a rat's *** that you're Christian. As far as I'm concerned, if it makes you happy, more power to you. And just an FYI, this type of moral posturing is one of the main reasons as to why I'm atheist


Ditto.

That, and the fact that WE don't go around trying to convert YOU to our way of thinking, nor do we say we're better than you, better 'givers,' etc (unless it's brought up in a situation like this and we have open discussion). We just live our lives. The only time atheists ever even speak out is when Christianity is being forced on us whether we want it or not (schools, etc.). The same can't be said for you. Here you are, in fact, telling us we are inferior to you.


----------



## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

He without sin cast the first stone, I'm done with throwing them, it's hard work and I usually miss and hit the wrong person. Yes, we should forgive but learn at the same time, nothing like a know it all, don't they just grate. The snowdrops look so pretty xxx


----------



## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

My mother was a devout Christian who considered herself to be married the day she passed away. This happened fifty years after I watched my father pack his stuff and walk out on the family.
I, being what I considered to be an agnostic, had no problem with not forgiving my cheating ex wife after two days in lock-up because of lies told by her to a judge I still believe was sleeping with her.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

hookares said:


> My mother was a devout Christian who considered herself to be married the day she passed away. This happened fifty years after I watched my father pack his stuff and walk out on the family.
> I, being what I considered to be an agnostic, had no problem with not forgiving my cheating ex wife after two days in lock-up because of lies told by her to a judge I still believe was sleeping with her.


There's an upside to being agnostic or atheist. When theists try the "you have to forgive" and "those without sin cast the first stone" I say cool, that doesn't apply to me, where's the stones?


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Best. Line. EVER!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why thank you! I was in a particularly jaunty mood last night. lol



turnera said:


> That, and the fact that WE don't go around trying to convert YOU to our way of thinking, nor do we say we're better than you, better 'givers,' etc (unless it's brought up in a situation like this and we have open discussion).


Precisely.

I've never engaged in discourse with anyone of any faith with the intent to convince them to be atheist. Now, if someone asks me why I'm atheist, I tell them. But even then, it's from the approach of "This is my thought process, and this is what works for _me_." It's fully expected that _your_ mileage may vary, and we are truly okay with that.



> We just live our lives. The only time atheists ever even speak out is when Christianity is being forced on us whether we want it or not (schools, etc.). The same can't be said for you. Here you are, in fact, telling us we are inferior to you.


Again, precisely.

If you keep your religion out of my and my children's lives, you will not hear one peep out of me. I have no issue with religious charitable organizations. I have no issue with churches. I don't even care if our money says "In God We Trust" on it; I used to, but really, who pays attention to anything else but the number on the bill? God knows I sure don't. 

But once you legislate your religion as law, you've taken away my right to choose my faith, even if it means a lack thereof. We have no desire to ban your religion. We have no desire to make Christianity, or any other religion, illegal.

But some Christian's superior attitude mans that they do not reciprocate. That makes me wonder if they're really as secure about their faith as they claim to be.



Anon Pink said:


> Are you really suggesting that if you had been raised in the jungle and no one ever introduced you to the Jesus story or the bible you would have no concept of those virtues?


Here's the million dollar question. This is honestly how it comes across to us when Christians say, "But the Bible provides a moral compass for us." You _need_ a religious text to tell you not to kill, steal, and commit adultery? These virtues would never have occurred to you otherwise?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I grew up Methodist, my ww grew Mormon.
during my ww second affair (EA) about 12 or so years ago she was very religious, went to a non denominational church every Sunday morning and some(most evenings).
It seemed half of the congregation was having an affair.
I have been told everyone is a hypocrite but my wife took it to whole new level.
We do not go to church anymore (it is actually a trigger for me).
Anyways I was saved and baptized, so I figure i can coast here on out.


----------



## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x oh and 7 xxx


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> There are people that call themselves Christians that do the opposite of what Christ taught and demonstrated. For those of you that delight in posting anti-Christian posts (see reprints below) I would tell you that my standard and God is Jesus and not Christian people, religion, or non-religions. To me Christ is the perfect example as to what we should strive for. I strive to please Him and follow His teachings but come up short from time to time. However, there has not been one time when I followed him with perseverance and patience that He did not prove to be true in his teachings and promises.
> 
> As for the topic of this thread, Jesus not only taught forgiveness but demonstrated it in a most dramatic way. In other words, He could talk the talk because He walked the walk!
> ...




Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, *there is something wrong within you*.

The Bible for us believing Christians helps us to be more compassionate, loving, and forgiving.
*You judging us as* *“something wrong within you”* *proves your bias and your anti-Christian position*


Are you really suggesting that if you had been raised in the jungle and no one ever introduced you to the Jesus story or the bible you would have no concept of those virtues?
*NO*

If so, then there is *something wrong with you*.

*Anon Pink, you sure do like to judge Christians and tell them that* *“there is something wrong with you” *


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Anon Pink, you sure do like to judge Christians and tell them that* *“there is something wrong with you” *



Men too. Hate and bigotry are strong with this one.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

*Anon Pink, you sure do like to judge Christians and tell them that* *“there is something wrong with you” *[/QUOTE]

Not with Christians in general, but with the specific individual where the only thing stopping them from killing, stealing, cheating, and raping was the Bible. I would say that person is mentally ill.

I believe that most Christians are already innately aware those things are wrong (as do all sane people), and that the Bible simply resonates with them because it reinforces the virtues they are already innately aware of. I don't take issue with that.

But the implication that Christians love to make is that "atheists have no moral compass because they do not read the Bible". It's the only moral high ground they think they can take with us. If they were to be intellectually honest and say that "the Bible merely reinforces the virtues I already believe in", then they would be tacitly admitting that _the Bible is not required for one to have morals._ And that is something Christian zealots absolutely cannot imply, for it would weaken the very foundation of what's supposed to make their religion stand apart from atheism, and all other religions for that matter.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is what I put my faith in:
Religion - when, why and how did it begin?


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Toolforgrowth
> But the implication that Christians love to make is that "atheists have no moral compass because they do not read the Bible"


.

You responded to my post and I am a striving Christian. You judge all Christians as implying that 
"Atheists have no moral compass because they do not read the Bible".

I have over 1900 posts on this TAM forum without implying what you just said. *On what basis did you judge me as implying that atheists have no moral compass?*


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

I do not judge you as such, Mr. Blunt. I said "Christian zealots", not you specifically.

Not all Christians are zealots. Two of my best friends are very Christian, they know I'm atheist, and yet none of us care. I respect their beliefs, and they respect mine.

However, that hasn't been my experience with all Christians. I am in no way implying that you belong in that category.


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

For Christians, it is asked that they forgive as many times necessary. That doesn't mean Christians have a button that can turn on that forgiveness automatically.

It doesn't mean Atheist are unable to forgive either.

My mother had her 14 year old sister shot in the head by a brother in law who was raping her. All her family is Christian, I will tell you that forgiveness didn't really come that easily and with some it didn't come at all. I will say that my grandparents who chose to forgive with time did it to let go of the hate and pain more than for this pervert. I took years though. My aunt who is the eldest chose to stay married with this guy forgave him that same year and waited for him to get out of jail. 

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or resuming life as if nothing happened. 

There is a lot to forgiveness and I think that part of it is the offender's behavior. It is easier to forgive someone who is remorseful vs a person who is only sorry they got caught.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Although I'm very agnostic bordering on atheist I'm glad I was married in a church. It made me feel better about the whole thing. Justice of the peace marriages seem kind of lame. Those vows in church weddings are serious business. That makes it all the worse when people of faith cheat. Not only are they betraying their spouses and families, they're betraying the god they believe in and hold most sacred. I mean, they took a vow in the guy's house with him witnessing.


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Although I'm very agnostic bordering on atheist I'm glad I was married in a church. It made me feel better about the whole thing. Justice of the peace marriages seem kind of lame. *Those vows in church weddings are serious business. *That makes it all the worse when people of faith cheat. Not only are they betraying their spouses and families, they're betraying the god they believe in and hold most sacred. I mean, they took a vow in the guy's house with him witnessing.


Not just pretty words....


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Although I'm very agnostic bordering on atheist I'm glad I was married in a church. It made me feel better about the whole thing. Justice of the peace marriages seem kind of lame. Those vows in church weddings are serious business. That makes it all the worse when people of faith cheat. Not only are they betraying their spouses and families, they're betraying the god they believe in and hold most sacred. I mean, they took a vow in the guy's house with him witnessing.


Are you actually suggesting that atheists who marry don't take their vows seriously or that the vows they make to each other aren't serious? 

Do you think it hurts them any less, or that it is any less serious to them, if their spouse cheats simply because your god didn't witness it?

You admit people of faith cheat, so how is making vows in front of your god any better than making vows directly to each other?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Atheist or Christian? Does it affect how you forgive?*

*I'm not going to really try to get into a debate as such with regard as to who is right and who is wrong inasfar as being a Christian as opposed to some other religion, and even as opposed to atheism and/or agnosticism!

I will only say that I was a college sophomore when I came to receive Christ through some personal soul searching not long after what could have been a fatal automobile wreck occurred with me.

My family is basically United Methodist, with some Southern Baptist's thrown into the mix. I honestly believe that since I had to find out about Christ's love and mercy on my own, that it is somewhat contingent upon anyone who does so, to largely find out on their own. If I am asked how my conversion came about, I am absolutely thrilled to tell that person, but I am not going to berate them or force them to listen to my conversion story. When it happens, you will know it, and all too well!

I have friends who are of other assorted Christian faiths, and there are Muslims and Budhists in the mix. But I have quite a number of friends who are atheists and the like, who I care very deeply about! And I get the marked impression that they care a lot about me!

I had a very good upbringing by two Chistian parents who gave me enough leeway to discover Christianity on my own, and that's the way it evolved! I will not make scurilous references to or about my other Christian, Muslim, Budhist, Atheist, or Agnostic friends because what they believe is their own business. But I had a good moral compass well before I accepted Christ! I knew that I didn't want to lie, cheat, steal, or cause anyone else to! Morality was already there. But the Bible is a compendium of stories, largely about broken people and their trials and tribulations that they endured, and their stories of faith.

I will not tolerate when Christians are brow-beating non Christians over either their choice of religion, or non-religion, for that matter.Nor will I tolerate when two atheists "high-five" each other for summarily chastising a Christian, or any other organized religion for that matter.

I am happy with who I am just as I hope that everyone else is happy with who they are. But I will not lower myself to the standards of hatred that so many people, Christians included, do when someone doesn't agree with their religious dogma.

I feel happy and most fortunate to have the many friends that I do. But at the very same time, I fully realize that Christianity works so well for me, the same way that some other faith, or non-faith, for that matter, works for them!

Toleration of others beliefs in the whole key! I'll respect yours ~ but you're going to have to respect mine!*


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

norajane said:


> Are you actually suggesting that atheists who marry don't take their vows seriously or that the vows they make to each other aren't serious?
> 
> Do you think it hurts them any less, or that it is any less serious to them, if their spouse cheats simply because your god didn't witness it?
> 
> You admit people of faith cheat, so how is making vows in front of your god any better than making vows directly to each other?


What vows? I've been to a couple of JOP marriages to witness. There were no vows, just some bureaucrat stamping a couple of papers and it was over.

Also, did you not read my very first sentence? I have no god.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> What vows? I've been to a couple of JOP marriages to witness. There were no vows, just some bureaucrat stamping a couple of papers and it was over.
> 
> Also, did you not read my very first sentence? I have no god.


A lot of atheists write their own vows and make them to each other, rather than a god. The couple of papers is what actually makes them legally married.

You have no god but getting married in a church makes you feel better. You've been cheated on. How did the serious church vows help you? No vows, biblical or secular, are more serious than the people who make them.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Those vows in church weddings are serious business.


I understand your POV, but to me the location where said vows are made doesn't give them any more or less substance. It more matters to me that they were made in the first place, and whether or not the person has enough integrity to honor and respect them.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

norajane said:


> A lot of atheists write their own vows and make them to each other, rather than a god. The couple of papers is what actually makes them legally married.
> 
> You have no god but getting married in a church makes you feel better. You've been cheated on. How did the serious church vows help you? No vows, biblical or secular, are more serious than the people who make them.


In church weddings people make their vows to each other. God is just watching. Or so the belief states. Married "in the eyes of God."

The reason I'm saying it adds another layer of betrayal is because you add another party to the betrayal. The guy whose house you got married in and who watched you get married.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Atheists believe that if you need the bible to be compassionate, loving and forgiving, *there is something wrong within you*.
> 
> The Bible for us believing Christians helps us to be more compassionate, loving, and forgiving.
> *You judging us as* *“something wrong within you”* *proves your bias and your anti-Christian position*
> ...



Forgive me Mr. Blunt. I seem to have failed in making myself clear.

Toolforgrowth has said exactly my sentiments below.



toolforgrowth said:


> Not with Christians in general, but with the specific individual where the only thing stopping them from killing, stealing, cheating, and raping was the Bible. I would say that person is mentally ill.


I don't see how you come to take offense to my statement, nor to Toolforgrowths clarification. 

I have had several Christians in person question how can I count myself a moral person if I do not believe in the bible and I can only laugh and wonder why a person needs the bible to find their moral compass? I have no problems with you or anyone else finding their moral compass in the bible, or any other religious text. What I have a problem with, mr blunt, is when Christians assume they have the lock of morality when the truth is that they do not.

Once again, there is nothing anti-christian about my statement. But there is a lot anti-arrogance. 

Now, mr blunt, you have already stated above that you do not believe that only the bible teaches moral virtues and that in fact one can find their moral compass without the bible. You therefor do NOT fit into the group of Christians my post was directed to. 

Are we good now?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Men too. Hate and bigotry are strong with this one.


I beg your pardon?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I still believe it is easier to forgive and sometimes look the other way when the person we are enacting this grace upon is in "our" in-group. The "other" has always been suspicious to us. It is our nature to be just that tribal. 

So to answer the Q: the only thing that affects our ability to forgive is if that person is part of our tribal association, atheist or Christian makes no difference.


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

When I didn't believe, had no god, was an effective atheist I did not forgive. Pain and resentment were stored in my soul. My code or morals if you will were about self preservation and protection. 

Religion was of no interest. Attending both Baptist and Catholic schools showed me how insincere the labels can be. Growing up in the institute of Catholicism and witnessing it's abuse led me away from God. All of this had the air a poorly produced middle school play. 

Later, I found God or He found me...or both. My understanding changed and I didn't look at belief as a following of rules or mere morality. A moral life is a fine thing but does not satisfy what is laid out in scripture. 

To the OP and question of forgiveness my answer, for myself, is that as a non-believer/agnostic/atheist I did not forgive. As a believer I have learned to forgive. There is a peace in knowing that I don't have to bear the burden of unforgiveness. It's not all about me.

~ Passio


----------



## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

I am agnostic and don't feel like forgiveness should be given freely. Sometimes it strikes me as foolish to forgive certain things. I will usually forgive moderate transgressions once or twice, after that, I cut ties. Some people are just toxic. And I never believed the BS that forgiveness is for YOU and not the offender. I have never felt better after forgiving, just felt like a fool and a doormat.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Anon Pink
> Forgive me Mr. Blunt. I seem to have failed in making myself clear.
> 
> Toolforgrowth has said exactly my sentiments below.
> ...


We are good now. However, I don’t think I would as go far as toolforgroth did on his statement of “I would say that person is mentally ill.”
Mentally ill may not always apply. IMO


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

toolforgrowth said:


> *Anon Pink, you sure do like to judge Christians and tell them that* *“there is something wrong with you” *


Not with Christians in general, but with the specific individual where the only thing stopping them from killing, stealing, cheating, and raping was the Bible. I would say that person is mentally ill.

I believe that most Christians are already innately aware those things are wrong (as do all sane people), and that the Bible simply resonates with them because it reinforces the virtues they are already innately aware of. I don't take issue with that.

But the implication that Christians love to make is that "atheists have no moral compass because they do not read the Bible". It's the only moral high ground they think they can take with us. If they were to be intellectually honest and say that "the Bible merely reinforces the virtues I already believe in", then they would be tacitly admitting that _the Bible is not required for one to have morals._ And that is something Christian zealots absolutely cannot imply, for it would weaken the very foundation of what's supposed to make their religion stand apart from atheism, and all other religions for that matter.[/QUOTE]


Don't believe I or anyone else have suggested that atheists have no internal moral compass. I have never read a clear written moral code of conduct that applies to all atheists and could be taught to other atheists or easily comprehended by everyone else. If you know of one, I'd love to read it.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I am agnostic and don't feel like forgiveness should be given freely. Sometimes it strikes me as foolish to forgive certain things. I will usually forgive moderate transgressions once or twice, after that, I cut ties. Some people are just toxic. And I never believed the BS that forgiveness is for YOU and not the offender. I have never felt better after forgiving, just felt like a fool and a doormat."

EXACTLY.

I have been an agnostic for over a decade now (I'm 47), and I see forgiveness in the same way.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Don't believe I or anyone else have suggested that atheists have no internal moral compass. I have never read a clear written moral code of conduct that applies to all atheists and could be taught to other atheists or easily comprehended by everyone else. If you know of one, I'd love to read it.


Atheists don't have one. At least, not to my knowledge. I've never felt compelled to turn to a "written moral code of conduct" for guidance, so I've never searched for one.

What I do do is obey the laws as set forth in the U.S. Constitution and the Oregon Revised Statues. Otherwise, I treat people how I want to be treated. If they do not reciprocate, there are consequences (divorce, dissolution of friendship, etc.). Worked for me just fine so far in all my 35 years of existence.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> We are good now. However, I don’t think I would as go far as toolforgroth did on his statement of “I would say that person is mentally ill.”
> Mentally ill may not always apply. IMO


To be fair, I have to acknowledge that if the Bible _were_ the only thing stopping this hypothetical individual from committing those heinous acts, I would probably be grateful for the deterrent. And again, to be fair, not everyone who commits adultery is mentally ill (at least not severely so).

But fear of a vengeful god mixed with a dash of mental instability can also make for some bad pie. I would trust a mental health professional's diagnosis and treatment, consisting of therapy sessions coupled with the appropriate medication, a lot more than dogma.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ethics vs Morals - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

This is pretty close to the way I think about morals and ethics. No, I don't believe one will have morals if they have ethics. Yes, I do believe there is a difference. The internal vs. external comparison is probably one of the most glaring differences in why the two are so different. It can be read in many posts, not just in this thread.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Don't believe I or anyone else have suggested that atheists have no internal moral compass.


It actually WAS said here, early on, just in different words. 

And I have had THREE people tell me that in person. "Christian, loving, forgiving" people. Self-righteous people.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I have never read a clear written moral code of conduct that applies to all atheists and could be taught to other atheists or easily comprehended by everyone else. If you know of one, I'd love to read it.


Sure we do. We all learned it in first grade. It's called The Golden Rule. I still rely on it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Idyit said:


> When I didn't believe, had no god, was an effective atheist I did not forgive. Pain and resentment were stored in my soul. My code or morals if you will were about self preservation and protection.
> 
> Religion was of no interest. Attending both Baptist and Catholic schools showed me how insincere the labels can be. Growing up in the institute of Catholicism and witnessing it's abuse led me away from God. All of this had the air a poorly produced middle school play.
> 
> ...


Now see, I gained MY ability to forgive from a psychological perspective. I didn't need a God to tell me it was a good thing to forgive. My learnings in psychology did that. I realized that forgiveness isn't given to benefit the other person; it's given so that I can live a less hurtful life; I forgive for ME. 

In addition, however, I also choose to see the good in everyone, even those with severe mental illness like psychopathy. That person didn't CHOOSE to be born a psychopath. Or be abused as a child. And so on. Even those who choose to do heinous things like cheating or murder, I first seek to figure out WHY they do it. Doesn't mean I condone what they do, of course. But I don't see black and white hatred the way some do. I see feelings and thoughts and emotions in EVERY person, and that allows me to be more forgiving.


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

I like what you said Turnera. We are in a agreement that the actions of compassion, mercy and forgiveness are not the sole realm of one religion or no religion at all. Our shared view of forgiveness and choosing to see good in people differs only in our perspective. 

The original question was, "does it effect how you forgive?". For me, absolutely. What seems to be spilling out in the thread is, is one or the other superior at forgiving. This I don't know. But as you've shown both CAN forgive and be pretty good at it.

~ Passio


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Idyit said:


> I like what you said Turnera. We are in a agreement that the actions of compassion, mercy and forgiveness are not the sole realm of one religion or no religion at all. Our shared view of forgiveness and choosing to see good in people differs only in our perspective.
> 
> The original question was, "does it effect how you forgive?". For me, absolutely. What seems to be spilling out in the thread is, is one or the other superior at forgiving. This I don't know. But as you've shown both CAN forgive and be pretty good at it.
> 
> ~ Passio


*Regardless of who you are, what you may believe, or what it is that you stand for, the act of extending forgiveness with a sincere and contrite heart is only superceded by the earnest and heartfelt request for that forgiveness by the offender!*


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

quoted from Toolforgrowth: 
Not with Christians in general, *but with the specific individual where the only thing stopping them from killing, stealing, cheating, and raping was the Bible. I would say that person is mentally ill.
*


*I can guarantee you there are some people alive today simply because it is against the law to kill them and I am not talking biblical law.
are they mentally ill? maybe maybe not especially if they don't kill them.
If laws biblical or otherwise didn't mean anything to anybody it would be anarchy.*


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

convert said:


> quoted from Toolforgrowth:
> Not with Christians in general, *but with the specific individual where the only thing stopping them from killing, stealing, cheating, and raping was the Bible. I would say that person is mentally ill.
> *
> 
> ...


In my opinion, yes they are mentally ill. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I stand by how I feel.

IMO, no sane person would commit murder, even if it were legal. Again, that's just my opinion.

As for infidelity, I wouldn't say that all people who cheat are mentally ill. I would say they are while the affair is in progress, but whether or not the mental illness continues after that is up to the WS ; are they going to counseling, do they accept the affair is on them, etc.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> Regardless of who you are, what you may believe, or what it is that you stand for, the act of extending forgiveness with a sincere and contrite heart is only superceded by the earnest and heartfelt request for that forgiveness by the offender!


I don't see it that way at all.

I've forgiven several people in my life - with whom I no longer even had a relationship, and who were completely unaware that I forgave them. 

I did it for myself. And I couldn't have cared less if they 'felt' forgiven.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> In my opinion, yes they are mentally ill. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I stand by how I feel.
> 
> IMO, no sane person would commit murder, even if it were legal. Again, that's just my opinion.
> 
> As for infidelity, I wouldn't say that all people who cheat are mentally ill. I would say they are while the affair is in progress, but whether or not the mental illness continues after that is up to the WS ; are they going to counseling, do they accept the affair is on them, etc.


Not mentally ill here, just pure barbaric evil.

There are many fortunate individuals that still breath and retain health thanks to my conviction that I will answer to God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I also disagree with your legal killing statement. If a certain group of people were suddenly classified as nonhuman and had absolutely no repercussions for killing, you would see mothers in minivans running them over.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

toolforgrowth said:


> As for infidelity, I wouldn't say that all people who cheat are mentally ill. I would say they are while the affair is in progress, but whether or not the mental illness continues after that is up to the WS ; are they going to counseling, do they accept the affair is on them, etc.


*The vast, overwhelming number of cheaters are definitely not insane!

But they are without question, 100% "unconsciable!" No conscience for anyone or anything other than for themselves, their paramour, their lust, secrecy, deception, and the next act that they will be covertly performing together!*


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I did it to move on. It is more of being analytical and what is healthy. Otherwise, it would cause more dysfunction for the person who does not move on.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> toolforgrowth said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, yes they are mentally ill. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I stand by how I feel.
> ...


I like you Conan, so I wouldn't call you evil. Although I would say that in order for a person to be actually and truly "evil", they would therefore also have to be mentally ill, if not downright insane.

Look, I get your perspective. Someone hurts you or someone you love terribly, and you want vengeance. I don't see how that is anything but natural. I also think good people can be driven to heinous acts if they are severely wounded in some way. The mental illness is thrust upon them by the deplorable actions of a third party.

But someone who simply has the urge to kill, rape, or steal, without any catalyst for it, I'd say is mentally ill.

I think forgiveness is overrated, anyway. I've never really forgiven my xWW, and I don't think I ever will. I'm honestly okay with that. I put up with years of mental and emotional abuse by her, and she topped it off with her affair. She is not worthy of my consideration. I use this as a source of strength to keep her away and out of life, and when she tries to manipulate me, she fails miserably.

To each their own.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> In church weddings people make their vows to each other. God is just watching. Or so the belief states. Married "in the eyes of God."
> 
> The reason I'm saying it adds another layer of betrayal is because you add another party to the betrayal. The guy whose house you got married in and who watched you get married.


*Totally, Kev: That's why in a Christian marriage, there are so many more levels of projected insulation to the vows that a married couple make to each other ~ in essence not only to each other, but to the clergy who performed the service, their immediate and extended families, their friends, their community, but most importantly to God!

That's why Christian divorces, more often than not, are so traumatic, more especially whenever one of those spouses has a rather profound tie to the faith!*


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

Arbitrator, I can assure you that while I may not be Christian, by xWW's affair and my divorce were quite traumatic. I'll never be the person I used to be before DDay.

In retrospect, I'm actually glad for that. Hey actions helped me find my nuts again, which is a very good feeling!

But infidelity and divorce are traumatizing no matter what your faith.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> In my opinion, yes they are mentally ill. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I stand by how I feel.
> 
> IMO, no sane person would commit murder, even if it were legal. Again, that's just my opinion.
> 
> As for infidelity, I wouldn't say that all people who cheat are mentally ill. I would say they are while the affair is in progress, but whether or not the mental illness continues after that is up to the WS ; are they going to counseling, do they accept the affair is on them, etc.


well then we don't need any laws or prisons because they don't make a difference or mean anything to sane people, we would just need mental hospitals for everyone that committed murder. or how about a 24 hour period where all laws are suspended and you can do anything you want. might make a great movie...oh wait..


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

convert said:


> toolforgrowth said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, yes they are mentally ill. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I stand by how I feel.
> ...


Your sarcasm aside, I do believe incarceration is regressive and does nothing to prevent further criminal behavior. It addresses the symptom, but not the disease. In essence, it's a palliative, and a very $hitty one at that.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> I like you Conan, so I wouldn't call you evil. Although I would say that in order for a person to be actually and truly "evil", they would therefore also have to be mentally ill, if not downright insane.
> 
> Look, I get your perspective. Someone hurts you or someone you love terribly, and you want vengeance. I don't see how that is anything but natural. I also think good people can be driven to heinous acts if they are severely wounded in some way. The mental illness is thrust upon them by the deplorable actions of a third party.
> 
> ...


Good view point. I think I can agree with several concepts in your post but just use different labels? Like a language barrier?

We could very much agree on several points but use different terminology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> Your sarcasm aside, I do believe incarceration is regressive and does nothing to prevent further criminal behavior. It addresses the symptom, but not the disease. In essence, it's a palliative, and a very $hitty one at that.


I actually don't believe in a prison system either. Pretty useless. I am for punishment and repayment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> Your sarcasm aside, I do believe incarceration is regressive and does nothing to prevent further criminal behavior. It addresses the symptom, but not the disease. In essence, it's a palliative, and a very $hitty one at that.


not meant to be sarcasm but as fact that if laws do not make a difference then they are not needed.

that said I do believe in temporary insanity, Imagine spouse walking in on their spouse have sex with someone and kills them in that moment. 
If I was on the jury, I can certainly believe there was some temporary insanity.
but same situation and waiting maybe 5 days or so then killing, I don't know.
The prosecutor still would not want me on the jury.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

toolforgrowth said:


> I like you Conan, so I wouldn't call you evil. Although I would say that in order for a person to be actually and truly "evil", they would therefore also have to be mentally ill, if not downright insane.
> 
> Look, I get your perspective. Someone hurts you or someone you love terribly, and you want vengeance. I don't see how that is anything but natural. I also think good people can be driven to heinous acts if they are severely wounded in some way. The mental illness is thrust upon them by the deplorable actions of a third party.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

convert said:


> toolforgrowth said:
> 
> 
> > Your sarcasm aside, I do believe incarceration is regressive and does nothing to prevent further criminal behavior. It addresses the symptom, but not the disease. In essence, it's a palliative, and a very $hitty one at that.
> ...


I definitely agree with you here.  

I also think that laws are in place not to try to prevent actions from happening, but to dole out justice after the action has already taken place. You and I both know that if someone really wants to kill, they'll do it...laws be damned. The law is in place to ensure punishment is enacted. "Sure, go ahead and shoot that guy in the face. But if you do..." That kind of thing.


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

turnera said:


> I don't see it that way at all.
> 
> I've forgiven several people in my life - with whom I no longer even had a relationship, and who were completely unaware that I forgave them.
> 
> I did it for myself. And I couldn't have cared less if they 'felt' forgiven.


:iagree:


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Christians are instructed to forgive. Atheists aren't given any instruction. Based on that, my personal opinion is, an interaction with an atheist is more genuine. It is more likely the atheist has come to their action through their own thought and philosophy. If someone told me they were either asking for my forgiveness, or giving me theirs, only because their religion told me to, I'd feel much less assured than someone whose actions are entirely of their own accord.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

changedbeliefs said:


> Christians are instructed to forgive. Atheists aren't given any instruction. Based on that, my personal opinion is, an interaction with an atheist is more genuine. It is more likely the atheist has come to their action through their own thought and philosophy. If someone told me they were either asking for my forgiveness, or giving me theirs, only because their religion told me to, I'd feel much less assured than someone whose actions are entirely of their own accord.


This is very insightful.

I guess that would explain a lot...my xWW knows I have never forgiven her based on my actions. I'm never intentionally mean or spiteful, I don't cuss or yell at her, and I do not stand in the way of her living her life at all. But she literally has no role in my life at all, beyond the mother of our daughter. And frankly, she doesn't need me for that.

That also explains why she complained when I opted to go alone to my daughter's parent teacher conference. She actually said that I hated her.

I don't hate her, but she does disgust me. 

I don't buy all this "forgive to let yourself go" stuff. It feels too...inauthentic. I actually felt BETTER when I said out loud, "You know, I don't want to forgive her. She doesn't deserve it and I don't feel like giving it." THAT is authentic to how I felt.


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> And yet the one common factor each of these three has is they were all atheists and all responsible for mass murder. One could credibly throw Hitler into that group because he considered Nazism the state religion (essentially making himself a god). Anyone can make noise or say whatever they will, but *the evidence quite clearly demonstrates that those who deny the existence of God have a record of disposing of humans in ghastly numbers that no Christian ever dreamed of.* How many of you atheists will go on record as calling abortion morally wrong?


That bolded part really needs you to quote the evidence. The Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? That's just for starters. Christians haven't killed for their faith? Just flat out wrong.

Hitler was not an atheist;

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In his semi-autobiographical Mein Kampf (1925/6) however, he makes a number of religious allusions, claiming to fulfil the will of the Christian God[citation needed] and having been chosen by providence.[14] In a 1928 speech he said: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."


That link ultimately says, "we don't know where he stood," so it's incorrect to say he was an atheist, and certainly errant to state that his horrible acts were spurred by atheism.

But, it is truly the height of dishonesty to purport that atheism is responsible for more deaths than theism. First off, atheism does not have doctrine, it does not cry "kill the believers." If a person does so, it's on them, and I feel comfortable saying that it's not because they simply "haven't been told' it's wrong. No one can say "atheism told me to do it." This is in DRASTIC contrast to religious texts that out and out condone killing certain types of people. This isn't interpretation, it is simple fact. The Bible is laden with stories of murders specifically ordered, carried out, or approved by god.

Is religion necessary to know what's right and wrong? Absolutely not. To imply that people wouldn't have figured out that killing each other is bad without a supernatural edict is pretty silly. To imply that people will only stick to their moral code if they're religious, is patently false. How many Catholic priests weren't influenced enough not to rape little boys?? Of course, in their defense, nowhere in the Bible does it say not to, so I guess if they truly DID get their moral compass from the Bible, they didn't do anything wrong?

This discussion is so pointless. I contribute this quote:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg.

I would amend slightly, because I think we get so hung up on "good people" and "bad people." People are people, and I don't think anyone deserves some blanket "good" or "bad" label, with select exceptions.

"You have people doing good things and people doing evil things. But for people to do evil things, and believe they are good things, that takes religion."

I just want people to stand up for their own actions and beliefs, and say, "this is what I think, what I believe," and not say "because so-and-so said it was the right thing." Believe it because you think it's good, and right, and because it's what you'd want people to do, and think, when it comes to you.


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

toolforgrowth said:


> I don't hate her, but she does disgust me.
> 
> I don't buy all this "forgive to let yourself go" stuff. It feels too...inauthentic. I actually felt BETTER when I said out loud, "You know, I don't want to forgive her. She doesn't deserve it and I don't feel like giving it." THAT is authentic to how I felt.


The second part, IMO, is perfect. If that's how you feel, feel it. No, I don't believe you have to forgive her, either, and certainly don't just say you have because a faith/religion said you have to. Deal with it at your own pace.

On the first sentence, though, I do feel for you. I hope you can eventually move past that ugly feeling, I just think it's bad to have such a negative thought in your head. In the end, she's just a flawed person (in one sense, I don't know your whole story), and I hope you just come to see her as such, not "disgusting" or anything. Of course, I also hope that she does things to show you that, as well. If she doesn't care to mend that wound at all, then I understand it could be very hard to do. Best of luck.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"antiquity was better than modern times because it did not know Christianity and syphilis" Adolf Hitler


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> "antiquity was better than modern times because it did not know Christianity and syphilis" Adolf Hitler


“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

-Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936












We can do this all day, proves nothing either way.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Religion and Nazi Germany


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

tacoma said:


> “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
> Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”
> 
> -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
> ...


Ever hear a politician lie in a speech?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Thomas Jefferson was less a Christian as we would see fundamental christianity and more of a progressive Unitarian. He was not evil.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> tacoma said:
> 
> 
> > ?I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
> ...


So he's lying when it's about Christianity, but not when it's about atheism. Got it.

Guys, don't engage him. It's lost cause.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Ever hear a politician lie in a speech?


Just bringing Hitler into this shines a light on your complete and utter ignorance.

Read Mein Kampf for evidence as I'm not going to copy paste the plethora of Catholic references he wrote in his own bio.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ok, even though Hitler threw a few dozen Catholic priests into concentration camps, persecuted Jehova's Witnesses, and I doubt you'll ever find him expressing a pro-Christian opinion in private as an adult, we'll play your way and toss him out of the mix. We're still left with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, any of those three greatly exceeded the annual death toll of the Crusades or the Inquisition and we don't have to go back to the Middle Ages to find examples of atheists slaughtering people by the millions.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

changedbeliefs said:


> toolforgrowth said:
> 
> 
> > I don't hate her, but she does disgust me.
> ...


She is disgusting. She emotionally and mentally abused me for years, denied she needed therapy of any kind, and used our daughter multiple times to try to manipulate me into whatever she wanted post divorce. I get people are flawed, but she doesn't see herself as flawed and has no desire to. Everything is everybody else's problem, and never hers.

So yes, she disgusts me. But at that point, it reflects on me to ask, "Why did I ever marry this woman in first place? What does that say about ME?"

That was my catalyst for change.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Ok, even though Hitler threw a few dozen Catholic priests into concentration camps, persecuted Jehova's Witnesses, and I doubt you'll ever find him expressing a pro-Christian opinion in private as an adult, we'll play your way and toss him out of the mix. We're still left with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, any of those three greatly exceeded the annual death toll of the Crusades or the Inquisition and we don't have to go back to the Middle Ages to find examples of atheists slaughtering people by the millions.


Yes indeed and I can counter that by giving examples of where theists slaughtered millions in the name of their religion but it would be pointless.

It would be pointless because ultimately regardless of their stated reasons, religious or not, religion or lack of religion was never the cause of their evil.

Power was, and power always will be.
Religion is just the scapegoat.

I have no love for any religion and no respect for the vast majority of them but I know if they were all wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow humanity would simply find some other scapegoat to justify their evil in the quest for power.

To ascribe evil to an entire group of people because they share the same belief as an evildoer is just as bigotted and ignorant when I do it with Christianity as it is when you do it with atheism.

There is no truth in it and it solves nothing.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Can you forgive someone without wanting to remain in a relationship with them?


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

So to some here Hitler = Christian? If that were my viewpoint I'd opt out of God too.

~ Passio


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

tacoma said:


> Yes indeed and I can counter that by giving examples of where theists slaughtered millions in the name of their religion but it would be pointless.
> 
> It would be pointless because ultimately regardless of their stated reasons, religious or not, religion or lack of religion was never the cause of their evil.
> 
> ...


Nobody has ascribed evil to an entire group. Not all fruits are apples but that doesn't refute the fact that all apples are fruit. 
Despite ridiculous claims to the contrary, all Christians throughout history combined can't match the homicidal toll of only Mao and Stalin combined and probably couldn't match the toll of either of those two. As a matter of fact, all Christians combined couldn't come anywhere close to matching the homicidal toll of Muslims (which would be around 270 million). Your attempt at moral relativism can't be supported with serious fact. Had it not been for Islamic conquests, there would have been no need for the Crusades.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thought this was interesting. Don't know the veracity, not wasting my time, but still interesting:

War: Wars with at least a million dead:

Christian wars:

years: name: conservative body count in millions
535-554: Gothic Wars: 5.0m
790-1300: Reconquista: 7.0m
1096-1272: Crusades: 2.0m
1337-1453: Hundred Years’ War: 3.0m
1562-1598: French Wars of Religion: 3.0m
1568-1648: Dutch Revolt: 1.0m
1618-1648: Thirty Years’ War: 3.0m
1655-1660: Second Northern War: 3.0m
1763-1864: Russian-Circassian War: 2.0m
1792-1802: French Revolutionary Wars: 2.0m
1803-1815: Napoleonic Wars: 3.5m
1830-1903: War in Venezuela: 1.0m
1882-1898: Conquests of Menelik II of Ethiopia: 5.0m
1910-1920: Mexican Revolution: 1.0m
1914-1918: First World War: 20.0m
1917-1922: Russian Civil War: 5.0m
1939-1945: Second World War: 41.5m (European deaths only)
1946-1954: First Indochina War: 1.0m
1950-1953: Korean War: 1.2m
1955-1975: Vietnam War: 1.1m
1998-2003: Second Congo War: 2.5m
Muslim wars:

1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
1681-1707: Conquests of Aurangzeb: 5.0m
1967-1970: Nigerian Civil War: 1.0m
1980-1988: Iran-Iraq War: 1.0m
1983-2005: Second Sudanese Civil War: 1.0m
1989-2001: Afghan Civil War: 1.4m
Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.

There are more Christians, but only about 50% more, nothing like seven times more.

Western history is Eurocentric, so we know more about wars in Christian lands than in Muslim ones. But not for wars since 1900, and there the imbalance is even worse: 73.3 million compared to 4.4 millon – 17 times more dead in Christian wars.

Some blame technology, yet the Muslim world has all the weapons the West had to kill over 100 million people. And yet it did not.

Democide: counts those who died not through war or street crime but through the wilful in/action of government, like genocide or Mao’s Great Leap Forward.

Christian democides of a million or more (does not count communist democides):

940-1917: Russia (tsarist): 2.1m
1095-1272: Crusades: 1.0m
1451-1870: European slave trade: 17.3m
1492-1900: Latin America: 13.8m Amerindians
1600-1900: Caribbean: 10.0m slaves worked to death
1618-1648; Thirty Years War: 5.8m
1651-1987: British Empire: 1.1m (not counting slavery)
1800-1900: Brazil: 1.5m Amazon rubber companies
1900-1920: Mexico: 1.4m
1933-1945: Germany (Nazis): 20.9m
1945-1948: Poland: 1.6m
Muslim democides of a million or more:

400-1900: Iran: 2.0m
1110-1918: Ottoman Empire: 3.9m
1958-1987: Pakistan: 1.5m
1983-2005: Sudan: 1.9m Nuer, Dinka, Christians, Nuba, etc

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Ok, even though Hitler threw a few dozen Catholic priests into concentration camps, persecuted Jehova's Witnesses, and I doubt you'll ever find him expressing a pro-Christian opinion in private as an adult, we'll play your way and toss him out of the mix. We're still left with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, any of those three greatly exceeded the annual death toll of the Crusades or the Inquisition and we don't have to go back to the Middle Ages to find examples of atheists slaughtering people by the millions.


You're just wrong on this tack. The MODERN examples of people holding up their holy book while they oppress, injur or kill someone else are like shooting fish in a barrel. Are you claiming that Stalin stood up and said, "no one has ever told me this is wrong, so I'm going to kill them all!!"? They did not kill because of their lack of belief, and a belief in a god certainly wouldn't have stopped them, just like it didn't stop the MILLIONS of deaths specifically in the name of god. Seriously, just stop.

edit: this is a very unoriginal argument. So much so, in fact, articles have already been written about it, refuting its validity:

http://www.examiner.com/article/atheism-101-hitler-stalin-and-mao



> This is where the theist will often assert that the lack of belief – or more accurately the lack of fear in God [that] acts as a restraint on human’s natural sinfulness. This is a really poor argument for multiple reasons.





> “The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.”





> Finally, This whole “Hitler, Stalin, Mao” thing is really just a distraction from the original criticism. The fact is that many religious believers have a horrific track record both in the past and in the present of committing atrocities not just in the name of their religion, but directly because of their religious beliefs. Pointing the finger at atheists doesn’t absolve religious believers of this very obvious fact.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

John Lee said:


> Can you forgive someone without wanting to remain in a relationship with them?


Yes, absolutely. I have a former friend who turned out to be an assh*le. I forgave her in that I don't hold her actions against her anymore, nor do I harbor any anger or hurt or disappointment or anything. I hardly ever think of her at all. If I ran into her somewhere, I'd be polite and not feel anger toward her. Indifference, really, like an acquaintance.

But we are no longer friends because I don't want her in my life anymore as she isn't the kind of friend I want.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm glad I only read the first page and last page. This thread started out interesting but looks like it's become like every other religion-bashing/atheist trashing thread I can get ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET. And probably better quality.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Crappy Town: Why RJ Rummel Shouldn't Be Taken Seriously


----------



## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

Turnera
War is futile, it is never justified. Man's glory soon leaves him when he his buried in the sodden earth, empires rise up and crumble, leaving an uncomfortable bitter taste. There is not one, great dominant world leader who sets his stall out on the principle of violence and hatred, who is ever remembered for being the good guy.......Peace and Love xxx


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I dunno said:


> Turnera
> War is futile, it is never justified. Man's glory soon leaves him when he his buried in the sodden earth, empires rise up and crumble, leaving an uncomfortable bitter taste. There is not one, great dominant world leader who sets his stall out on the principle of violence and hatred, who is ever remembered for being the good guy.......Peace and Love xxx


*As a committed Christian, I ardently believe that when we die, our earthly glory as the men and women in charge of it's keep will, in fact, ultimately lose that earthly glory and luster when we are ultimately returned to the soil through death.

But at the very same time, all of us will then have to face the Heavenly Father in judgment; Christians, non-Christians, agnostics, atheists, academics, world leaders, business leaders, religious leaders, police and criminal, the wealthy, the poor, ~ you name it ~ to answer and be held accountable to Him as to what we personally did as a contribution in helping our fellow man, more especially those far less fortunate than us; with one very notable exception ~ that the religious, business, and political leaders will be held to a far higher standard of judgment in that they are deemed, by their sheer authority, to be the earthly stewards of the people!*


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or we get reborn as a lizard.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

Or we just die. That's it. No grand finale, no magical afterlife, nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for there to be an afterlife. I just don't see any evidence for one (to me, the Bible is the claim, not actual evidence, so I dismiss it as such). So I say there's probably not going to be an afterlife, but I wouldn't complain if there were.

That's why I'm a humanist. As far as I know, this is the only life I get, and the only reality in which I get to live it. Let's make the most of it. I tend to think a lot of (but not all) theists focus too much on getting into the next life rather than making this one better. It can be very frustrating at times.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

turnera said:


> Or we get reborn as a lizard.



Does Godzilla count?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I find Christian forgiveness to be hollow much of the time. For example, our neighbors are Christians, host Bible studies at their home, etc. But they were also the ones who, after a single event with our daughter where she apparently hurt their daughter's feelings, proceeded to shun our daughter and our son for 2+ years. My kids would ask to play with them and get turned down. Eventually they told my kids who were 3 and 5 at the time that their mom said they weren't allowed to play with them.

So, did they "forgive" whatever my daughter did that hurt their daughter's feelings? I guess. Will I forgive what they did to my kids. Nope. Never will.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I find Christian forgiveness to be hollow much of the time. For example, our neighbors are Christians, host Bible studies at their home, etc. But they were also the ones who, after a single event with our daughter where she apparently hurt their daughter's feelings, proceeded to shun our daughter and our son for 2+ years. My kids would ask to play with them and get turned down. Eventually they told my kids who were 3 and 5 at the time that their mom said they weren't allowed to play with them.
> 
> So, did they "forgive" whatever my daughter did that hurt their daughter's feelings? I guess. Will I forgive what they did to my kids. Nope. Never will.


I have found Christians (not all) to be rather controlling. Very set beliefs.

I think Jesus was all about love and grace and compassion. But most Christians I know are focused on disciplining other people.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

toolforgrowth said:


> Or we just die. That's it. No grand finale, no magical afterlife, nothing.


I prefer the reincarnated lizard concept.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

tacoma said:


> toolforgrowth said:
> 
> 
> > Or we just die. That's it. No grand finale, no magical afterlife, nothing.
> ...


Whatever floats your boat! Lol

If reincarnation were true, I'd want to reincarnate as a house cat. Talk about an awesome life.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No kidding! Someone to groom you, feed you, pet you, and let you live on everything in the house, and you do nothing in return except let your purr machine run.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

toolforgrowth said:


> Whatever floats your boat! Lol
> 
> If reincarnation were true, I'd want to reincarnate as a house cat. Talk about an awesome life.


Word.

Specifically, one of MY cats. They've got it made and don't even know it...


----------



## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

Arbitrator

My sentiments exactly, our time on earth is a mere waiting room, seems eternal at times but it soon passes. We can be so easily swayed, people who follow evil are reward by it, we should always look at the broader picture and question the outcome of our actions. Love and Peace xxx


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't expect something beyond my time on earth and I don't get swayed toward evil. Whodathunkit?


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

I dunno said:


> our time on earth is a mere waiting room, seems eternal at times but it soon passes


Then what incentive do you have to improve it?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

toolforgrowth said:


> Then what incentive do you have to improve it?


Doing good is its own reward. It fills the heart with joy. It brings love of self, knowing that what you do is in the best interest of all. Why do I need some promise of what happens when I die to make me behave in such a manner today?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I live by my mom's rule: Leave this earth in better shape than you found it.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> You may be the greatest person on earth, but there IS a difference and it's a huge difference. Has nothing to do with compassion are caring. The topic is "forgiveness". You may be a forgiving person, but if you are, it's because that's your choice. You can choose to not be forgiving tomorrow. You can choose to forgive some people but not others, choose to forgive some offenses but not others.
> Christians have a written mandate from the Creator of the Universe to forgive. It is not an individual choice as it is for Atheists.


Of course it is an individual choice, whether one is a Christian, any other religion, or an atheist. You simply chose to follow a book of rules. An atheist chooses to follow their standards of integrity and morality.



> You may forgive because you think it's a nice thing to do or because it seems logical to do so. Christians are ordered to forgive even when it doesn't make sense, even when they don't feel like it, not some just some Christians, not just some offenses, not just some of the time.
> The biggest difference is I have an easily found, easily understood, easily explainable standard that is written in black and white. My mind may change with the wind but that standard does not. Do you have a written standard for your conduct that does not change?


Does an atheist need one to have a standard?



> Without a standard, you are left to decide for yourself whether your conduct is acceptable or not and just about everyone with a pulse believes they are a "good" person.


This choice is still one that believers make, whether they do so consciously or otherwise.



> Almost every person believes they are pretty smart. Almost every person believes they are fair, decent, and compassionate.


I'm not sure this is the case. Does OJ Simpson think he's a good person? He probably knows he's not. Does Charles Manson think he's a good person?

-10th Engineer Harrison


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I know some men and women who I'm proud to be friends or family with. Some are devout christians, one friend grew up hindu but now goes to a baptist church, and quite a few I don't really know there faith or lack of. The thing that strikes me about christians that I respect is that they are the ones who make religion look good. They aren't openly judging and condemning non believers around them. They are living by the guidelines rather than trying to force others to buy it. Ironically enough, that's the very best way to enfluence those around them. 

I suppose that was slightly off thread topic so to get it back on topic, yes religion is a factor in forgiveness. It means that not does a forgiving person want to forgive but they also feel that they are guided to forgive. I'm not saying that's good or bad or better or worse. Just saying it's a factor.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When someone's conviction changes your mind, it's because you don't have strong beliefs in your opinions, or you've made incorrect decisions. 

Domination is evident on both sides of this discussion, and it's not pretty.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> When someone's conviction changes your mind, it's because you don't have strong beliefs in your opinions, or you've made incorrect decisions.
> 
> Domination is evident on both sides of this discussion, and it's not pretty.


Of course we have many opinions and convictions. Some we are more solid than others. They should all be subject to objective re-evaluation. That's actually what makes an opinion strong for me is the repeated re-evaluation with the same answer over and over.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Of course we have many opinions and convictions. Some we are more solid than others. They should all be subject to objective re-evaluation. That's actually what makes an opinion strong for me is the repeated re-evaluation with the same answer over and over.


:scratchhead:


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Thundarr said:
> 
> 
> > Of course we have many opinions and convictions. Some we are more solid than others. They should all be subject to objective re-evaluation. That's actually what makes an opinion strong for me is the repeated re-evaluation with the same answer over and over.


I think what he's saying is that he's constantly testing his own convictions, but when he comes to the same conclusion after repeated testing of those convictions, it usually is the right answer for him.

That's my take, because I literally do exactly that very thing. Religion and a belief in God (or lack thereof) is not an easy subject, and atheism is not a choice I came to lightly. It took years, literally years, of constant evaluation for me to come to that conclusion.

But it's one that I come to every time whenever my convictions are tested.


----------



## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

toolforgrowth

I am not perfect, anything but. The secret is to know your imperfections and try your very best to put things right. Sometimes believing in yourself isn't such a bad thing, just don't get taken in by all the hype. Keep it Real xxx


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I see many Christians who are constantly angry with someone or something. Try don't like liberals, they don't like government, they outright hate Obama. If Christians are commanded to forgive, how can this be? How can so many have such anger inside that its as if they have a tumor that they feed with anger. For many it's nearly an obsession. Are they even Christians at that point? How can you knowingly feed the anger beast, and feel completely justified in doing so, and yet think you are forgiving? You aren't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I see many Christians who are constantly angry with someone or something. Try don't like liberals, they don't like government, they outright hate Obama. If Christians are commanded to forgive, how can this be? How can so many have such anger inside that its as if they have a tumor that they feed with anger. For many it's nearly an obsession. Are they even Christians at that point? How can you knowingly feed the anger beast, and feel completely justified in doing so, and yet think you are forgiving? You aren't.


IMO, from a psychological aspect, it's the self-righteousness that comes with being a Christian, at least THAT brand. The ones who tell me ad nauseum that their religion is the ONLY right religion and that everyone else is going to Hell, even if they believe in God, those poor misguided ignorant people.

Now before you jump on me, I know plenty of Christians who are NOT that way. I'm talking about the ones who wear it like a royal robe and it becomes who they are.

Psychologically speaking, that gives you a heightened sense of 'better than,' even if you don't realize you're in it. Add in things like Faux News egging you on...

My brother used to be a fairly normal guy, until he happened on Faux News. Combine that with his church-going, which ramped up at the same time, and that's one of the main reasons his wife is now divorcing him. She says he spends all his free time HATING. And watching Faux News. And feeling superior. She said when she'd try to disagree with anything in that vein, he'd get practically venomous about it - anyone who didn't agree with them was not only wrong, but evil, sinner, and to be stopped (or brought back into the fold).

My DD24's college roommate wouldn't wear shorts or sleeveless shirts because one of the guys in her church group at school went around calling girls who did, harlots and sl*ts. It's that self-righteousness aspect. We all want to belong to something; some take it higher than others.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I see many Christians who are constantly angry with someone or something. Try don't like liberals, they don't like government, they outright hate Obama. If Christians are commanded to forgive, how can this be? How can so many have such anger inside that its as if they have a tumor that they feed with anger. For many it's nearly an obsession. Are they even Christians at that point? How can you knowingly feed the anger beast, and feel completely justified in doing so, and yet think you are forgiving? You aren't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


perhaps you mean disagree with... not forgive or angry.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By SupriseMyself
> I see many Christians who are constantly angry with someone or something. Try don't like liberals, they don't like government, they outright hate Obama. If Christians are commanded to forgive, how can this be? How can so many have such anger inside that its as if they have a tumor that they feed with anger. For many it's nearly an obsession. Are they even Christians at that point? How can you knowingly feed the anger beast, and feel completely justified in doing so, and yet think you are forgiving? You aren't



You are right SupriseMyself there are people that claim to be Christians that are constantly anger with someone or something.

To give the other side of real Christianity I am going to reprint below some information on the Christian community of the Amish and forgiveness after the killer killed those innocent little girls. I am posting this because there are Christians that actually follow Christ’s great teaching. I am one that is striving to follow Christ because I do not think that I can include myself in the GREAT miracle of forgiveness that the Amish demonstrated.

Some of the reasons that some of us Christians worship God/Jesus/Christ is that we believe that He is the ultimate in love, forgiveness, and power. 





> Quotes from Internet regarding Amish forgiving
> The Amish school shooting refers to an attack that occurred at the West Nickel Mines School, an Amish one-room schoolhouse in the Old Order Amish community of Nickel Mines, a village in Bart Township of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States, on the date of October 2, 2006.
> 
> Gunman Charles Carl Roberts IV took hostages and eventually shot and killed five girls (aged 6-13) before committing suicide in the schoolhouse.
> ...


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

It's odd to me that anyone would assume Christians invented or had a monopoly forgiveness.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

John Lee said:


> It's odd to me that anyone would assume Christians invented or had a monopoly forgiveness.


*As a devout Christian, I will be the very first to attest that Christians do not have a monopoly on the act of forgiveness! Forgiveness is largely a Godly virtue instilled in us by our Creator as a human characteristic.

And while we Christians are taught to exercise forgiveness to others, or to beg forgiveness from them as such, many of us shamefully do not do that or self-servingly refuse to.

But as the true Christians that we are, we ardently confess to being an imperfect people!*


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Wow, lots of Christian bashing/hating going on here. Almost seems obsessive. 

As to forgiveness, it is not uniquely a Christian thing. What is unique about Christian faith is that it begins with forgiveness. (Some religious Christian sects seem to forgo this) Confess, turn away from your sin and follow Christ...He will forgive. Actually sounds like a successful R here on TAM.

~ Passio


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Idyit said:


> Wow, lots of Christian bashing/hating going on here. Almost seems obsessive.


Three pages of equating every atheist with Stalin and this is what you take away from it.

:rofl:


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Relax. It was humor.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Idyit said:


> Relax. It was humor.


Obviously, can't you see the laughing?

:rofl:


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Ahh. There it is. Now I see it.

Now I'm more confused. Was Stalin an atheist? Did he sign all the proper papers to be a part of that club? And if so how was World War II a Christian war as stated in an earlier post? Perhaps the Christians should only be given partial credit or subtract out the Russian related deaths. <--- I jest

More seriously, I have intended my comments to reflect my own thoughts and experience with forgiveness.

~ Passio


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Idyit said:


> Wow, lots of Christian bashing/hating going on here. Almost seems obsessive.


No, just sharing lots of experiences.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Atheism is just the belief that there is no deity or deities given the evidence. Stalin and other dictators were brutal people, but they did it for themselves. Religious people may do brutal acts under their religious doctrine. Atheism does not have any doctrine or rules to follow, it is just the absence of belief in a higher power.

As a non-believer, I form my ethics from what I can observe and analyze.

Christianity is an ever evolving institution., the beliefs and culture has change over time. Prior to 1830 AD, Christians did not even believe in a rapture. Not until the idea was introduced by John Darby. The story of Jesus saying he without sin, should not cast the first stone, did not even exist in bibles until the 15th century. Thousands and thousands of bibles, dating centuries before that, did not even include that story. Most bible scholars know this, and even the religious bible scholars will even acknowledge this. Christians who proclaim that marriage should be between one man and one woman does not even know the history of marriage. Monogamy started with the Greek and Romans. The more early Christianity and the Roman culture mingled, only then was Christianity beliefs were monogamous. In the bible, polygamy was the practice of the times. Abraham, Joshua, David, and a whole host of others had multiple wives. If it were not for Roman culture, monogamy wouldn't be practice today. The more you study Roman culture, the more influence you see in forming Christianity. Adultery was only when a man slept with a married woman. A husband was free to sleep with prostitutes. Even the concept of adultery has change over the years. Even today, more and more Christians are discarding the concept of hell. In another century, most Christians today will not probably recognize their religion. Just like if I sent a Christian a few hundred years back, they would not fit the Christianity back then. And I could go on and on and on.


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

turnera said:


> No, just sharing lots of experiences.


I was just having a little fun at your expense... Hopefully no foul called on me.

And if I chose to, could probably match you with lousy experiences involving Christians acting decidedly UN Christ-like. People of all stripes occasionally suck.

~ Passio


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> OP question
> Does our religion or non-religion play a large role in how or if we can forgive?


To answer the original question by the OP, I would say that with the Christian Amish their Christianity played a GINORMOUS role on forgiveness!

I have never seen or read of anything as powerful as what the Amish did when it comes to mankind and forgiveness. I don’t think that I could do what they did. 

*Does anyone on TAM think that they could do what the Amish did?*


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

This thread is a perfect example of why being an agnostic suits me better than being an atheist. 

As an answer to OP. I think it makes a difference whether you forgive because your scripture tells you to, and your religous group of choice expects you to, or if you do it because you think it's a good idea and it makes you feel better.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr.Fisty said:


> The story of Jesus saying he without sin, should not cast the first stone, did not even exist in bibles until the 15th century. Thousands and thousands of bibles, dating centuries before that, did not even include that story. Most bible scholars know this, and even the religious bible scholars will even acknowledge this


Wow, I did not know that. Sure sounds like something Jesus would've said.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr.Fisty
> The story of Jesus saying he without sin, should not cast the first stone, did not even exist in bibles until the 15th century. Thousands and thousands of bibles, dating centuries before that, did not even include that story. Most bible scholars know this, and even the religious bible scholars will even acknowledge this
> 
> By jld
> Wow, I did not know that. Sure sounds like something Jesus would've said.


What Jesus did say without question is this

*Matthew 7:5
Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye*.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The Unitarian view of Jesus (like that of Thomas Jefferson) is the one I prefer, like that of Matthew 7:3. The instructions for how to live and love each other. It is not as if there is anything special about these teachings other than they provide powerful reminders and beautiful symbolisms and examples. 

If the bible could have just ridded itself of some of the other aspects, like miracles that defy physics, chemistry and biology, then I could subscribe to its humanitarian teachings.


----------



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

jld said:


> Wow, I did not know that. Sure sounds like something Jesus would've said.


Interesting that this verse would be brought up. It is questioned whether this was part of the original text. What makes it stand out even more is the "go and sin no more" passage. Sounds good but is not in keeping with the rest of Jesus' teaching regarding sin and forgiveness.

Everywhere else forgiveness is granted for sin the person first repents. See! Even Jesus is no doormat!

~ Passio


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Mr.Fisty,

I don't have an axe to grind here. I was raised Jewish and lost belief in a personal God before I was even an adult, so have been agnostic most of my life. 



Mr.Fisty said:


> Prior to 1830 AD, Christians did not even believe in a rapture. Not until the idea was introduced by John Darby.


I think your source might have been talking about the term itself rather than the theological concept it describes. Plevnik argues convincingly that the concept has a much longer history than Darby. 



Mr.Fisty said:


> The story of Jesus saying he without sin, should not cast the first stone, did not even exist in bibles until the 15th century. Thousands and thousands of bibles, dating centuries before that, did not even include that story. Most bible scholars know this, and even the religious bible scholars will even acknowledge this.


This is a semi-true barb whose sole purpose is to poke fundamentalist Christians where it hurts the most. (Not that they don't deserve it sometimes...)

The _Pericope Adulterae_ antedates the Council of Trent. Although it's missing from the Codex Sinaiticus, the Vaticanus and the Pe****ta, it is included in the Codex Bezae, the Textus Receptus and most importantly in the context of Christian history, the Vulgate: 

"..._qui sine peccato est vestrum primus in illam lapidem mittat_."

Yes, most scholars do believe this to be a gloss but at the same time, most scholars don't accept the fundamentalist Christian notion of antiquity as the sole measure of manuscript purity either. (i.e. They believe that there were competing Christian traditions right from the start.) 

Papias, Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine all seem familiar with the story and the _Novum Testamentum Graece_ which is considered in academia to be the most accurate textual apparatus available contains it, so scholars do not believe its inclusion is unwarranted either.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Christians who proclaim that marriage should be between one man and one woman does not even know the history of marriage. Monogamy started with the Greek and Romans. The more early Christianity and the Roman culture mingled, only then was Christianity beliefs were monogamous.


I would guess that most Christians believe that marriage should be between one man and one woman because the single most influential character in the formation of Christianity (Paul) taught it. 

If you want to point out that Paul was Hellenized and doesn't even remotely express himself like a Jewish person, I would wholeheartedly agree. 



Mr.Fisty said:


> In another century, most Christians today will not probably recognize their religion. Just like if I sent a Christian a few hundred years back, they would not fit the Christianity back then.


Very true.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

So, ocotillo, the Don't throw stones story is indeed legit?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Idyit said:


> Interesting that this verse would be brought up. It is questioned whether this was part of the original text. What makes it stand out even more is the "go and sin no more" passage. Sounds good but is not in keeping with the rest of Jesus' teaching regarding sin and forgiveness.
> 
> Everywhere else forgiveness is granted for sin the person first repents. See! Even Jesus is no doormat!
> 
> ~ Passio


I don't think of Jesus as a doormat. He is an inspiration.

Must be that Catholic upbringing.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Christianity would not be what it is today if it wasn't for Paul. Unlike the original apostles, James and Peter, he did not share their belief that the gentiles had to become Jews *first* before becoming followers of Christ. Makes sense, if you want to recruit followers, you don't create daunting obstacles for them. If interested, please read *Paul's Mission and Letters: Carrying the 'good news' of Jesus Christ to non-Jews, Paul's letters to his fledgling congregations reveal their internal tension and conflict*.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> Christianity would not be what it is today if it wasn't for Paul. Unlike the original apostles, James and Peter, he did not share their belief that the gentiles had to become Jews *first* before becoming followers of Christ. Makes sense, if you want to recruit followers, you don't create daunting obstacles for them. If interested, please read *Paul's Mission and Letters: Carrying the 'good news' of Jesus Christ to non-Jews, Paul's letters to his fledgling congregations reveal their internal tension and conflict*.


Well yeah, that whole cutting the tip of your penis off thing really wasn't going to gain many converts until Paul told them it wasn't necessary.

:rofl:


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

jld said:


> So, ocotillo, the Don't throw stones story is indeed legit?


-Depends on how you chose to view it 

Was the story added to some of the texts during the first few hundred years of Christianity? Probably. 

Does that mean the story (Or something similar to it) never happen at all? Not necessarily. The NT originated in a time period when the spoken word carried more authority than the written word (Which is just exactly opposite of how we view the two today.) and the Jesus stories were still being circulated by word of mouth even after they were put into written form.


----------



## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Wow, lots of Christian bashing/hating going on here. Almost seems obsessive.
> 
> As to forgiveness, it is not uniquely a Christian thing. *What is unique about Christian faith is that it begins with forgiveness.* (Some religious Christian sects seem to forgo this) Confess, turn away from your sin and follow Christ...He will forgive. Actually sounds like a successful R here on TAM.
> 
> ~ Passio


Actually it starts with God not forgiving Adam and Eve for eating that apple.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> -Depends on how you chose to view it
> 
> Was the story added to some of the texts during the first few hundred years of Christianity? Probably.
> 
> Does that mean the story (Or something similar to it) never happen at all? Not necessarily. The NT originated in a time period when the spoken word carried more authority than the written word (Which is just exactly opposite of how we view the two today.) and the Jesus stories were still being circulated by word of mouth even after they were put into written form.


Doesn't it seem consistent with the philosophy of Jesus?


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

tacoma said:


> Well yeah, that whole cutting the tip of your penis off thing really wasn't going to gain many converts until Paul told them it wasn't necessary.
> 
> :rofl:


:iagree: :rofl::lol:

A Monthy Python *"Life of Brian"* moment.

Now if only *THIS* was in the Holy Bible.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

jld said:


> Doesn't it seem consistent with the philosophy of Jesus?


My perspective is not a Christian one, so it may not count for much. But yes, it seems perfectly in harmony with a mercy over sacrifice / life over law / forgive 77 times (And then some) philosophy.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> My perspective is not a Christian one, so it may not count for much. But yes, it seems perfectly in harmony with a mercy over sacrifice / life over law / forgive 77 times (And then some) philosophy.


It would be interesting to hear your perspective sometime, ocotillo.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

In essence, the stories over the years most likely change. The problem with oral tradition is that you never know how much the story has changed. Chinese whisper, where what was said, changes over time. If you read the gospel side by side, the accounts varies. No one really knows who the gospel writers are, There were many gospels at that time. Mark, the earliest gospel is radically different than that of John's, which is to believe to be the latest. 
Ugarit and the Bible By David Steinberg. Here is an example of the bible not matching with archeology.

Study the story of Romulus, a story that predates Jesus by centuries, and you can see the Roman influence on Christianity. In paul, Mark, Luke, Mathew, Jesus never called himself God, it was only in the gospel of John, and each gospel has its own take Also, each Roman emperor until Augustine, proclaimed themselves gods.

For Christianity to remain monotheist, they use a form of modalism to explain how Jesus, God, and the holy spirit are one, with three faces. Here is a link to biblical scholars about the trinity. A Spurious Reference to the Trinity Added in 1 John 5:7-8  | United Church of God. The link shows evidence of how it was easy to change or add text, and it shows how the trinity concept was formed. There are Christians out there who do not believe in the trinity, nor Jesus as a god.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think of Jesus as a doormat. He is an inspiration.
> 
> Must be that Catholic upbringing.


*Or my United Methodist upbringing as well! 

John Wesley would be so proud!*


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr.Fisty said:


> In essence, the stories over the years most likely change. The problem with oral tradition is that you never know how much the story has changed. Chinese whisper, where what was said, changes over time. If you read the gospel side by side, the accounts varies. No one really knows who the gospel writers are, There were many gospels at that time. Mark, the earliest gospel is radically different than that of John's, which is to believe to be the latest.
> Ugarit and the Bible By David Steinberg. Here is an example of the bible not matching with archeology.
> 
> Study the story of Romulus, a story that predates Jesus by centuries, and you can see the Roman influence on Christianity. In paul, Mark, Luke, Mathew, Jesus never called himself God, it was only in the gospel of John, and each gospel has its own take Also, each Roman emperor until Augustine, proclaimed themselves gods.
> ...


THANK you for saying what I've been trying to say for so many years, after reading so many books. It's a human thing.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Idyit
> Wow, lots of Christian bashing/hating going on here. Almost seems obsessive.
> 
> As to forgiveness, it is not uniquely a Christian thing. What is unique about Christian faith is that it begins with forgiveness. (Some religious Christian sects seem to forgo this) Confess, turn away from your sin and follow Christ...He will forgive. Actually sounds like a successful R here on TAM.
> ...



Hawkeye
*You are mixing up CONSEQUENCES with Forgiveness*
Adam and Eve were forgiven; the punishment God gave them was consequences.

Adam and Eve did not sin against the spirit by giving credit for that which is divine (Holy Spirit) to Satan (blasphemy) . That is the only unforgivable sin.



> Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, *every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men*, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
> Let’s face it – that’s a very sobering teaching! But let’s put it into context. Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22).* Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24).*


----------

