# Am I in an Emotional Affair?



## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

This is my first post on this type of forum. If I break a rule, cut a fella some slack. I found this forum while looking for info about emotional affairs. I wish I would have found this place years ago. 

I've been married almost 23yrs. My wife had an affair almost 17yrs ago. Her affair lasted 6 months. We have 3 children that are for all intents and purposes grown. The youngest still lives at home but she is an adult. They were all under 5 years old when the affair happened. Ugh, sucks just typing things like that. 

We did not handle the first affair or its aftermath very well. We received some really bad marriage counseling and the advice that came from it was basically to "get over it" and that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs, blah, blah, and more blah. My wife blamed me for her actions. She maintained I was mean to her and I made her feel unloved. I stayed for the children, my parents divorced when I was a child and it was my biggest fear. My wife was aware of this by the way. We also would have been devastated financially, we had just bought a house, and I was in college at the time and I would not have been able to complete my degree in a timely manner. I also loved her very much. 

The affair would come up occasionally but the interval dwindled down to once or twice a year. She had guilt and shame but no real remorse. I had anger. I came to realize that I wasn't perfect, but I wasn't to blame. Around year 5 post affair, I decided to divorce when the kids were out of the house. I never really "got over" what had happened. I lost respect, trust, and my "connection" to her. We still had sex, a lot of sex actually, but the intimacy part was missing. Go ahead and call me a sissy, but you all know what I mean. My wife wasn't cheating anymore, but she wasn't helping the situation either. I eventually started squirreling away cash and we bought another property that's just in my name. 

So about 2.5 years ago, my wife kissed another man after a group after work happy hour thing. He leaned over and kissed her before she realized what was happening. She says she stopped it after 2-3 seconds. I didn't find out about this until 6 months after it happened. I will say, she changed after that happened. She has been much more attentive, she started reading self help books, started therapy, and cut out all girls night out activities. I figured out something was up and asked and she did come clean. I did not believe her. To say the gravy hit the fan would be an understatement. My previous reasons for staying weren't there anymore. I threw her out that night. Transferred half the funds out of the joint account and started talking to lawyers the next day. I also changed the locks and the alarm code to our home. She begged and pleaded to come home and swore she was telling the truth. I maintained radio silence. She went and got a polygraph exam done from a guy that does sex offender parole and law enforcement testing in our town. Legit guy. The poly examiner called me and emailed and mailed me a copy of the results. She was telling the truth about the kiss. The poly answered some other nagging questions from our past too. I let her come back home. She has changed her tune. She really has done (and is doing) a bunch of self introspection. She seems committed to working on herself and our marriage. Openly talks about issues past and present. She seems calmer, more mature and more grounded. She's re-prioritized her life too. Maybe I'm just a fool but I do believe the changes are real. Even with all of her progress, I'm still not 100% sure about staying in the marriage. I really don't know how to go about "healing" from all of this.

So where the hell is the emotional affair? About a year ago I spoke to a female coworker that I knew had gone through a mediated divorce. I asked her about the process, the mediator she used, etc. This coworker does not report to me and she works in another department. She is a few years younger than me (I'm 46, my wife is 44, and coworker is 41) and she is attractive. We begun a friendship. I do go to lunch with her 2 or 3 times a week. Sometimes alone and sometimes in a group. She joined the same gym as me and we occasionally workout at the same time. We have discussed my marital situation. I know her reason for divorce, her ex husband cheated on her, moved out of state and hasn't seen her son in 2 years. I've tutored her son in algebra a few times. I know she hasn't had much luck dating. We have quite a few things in common and I enjoy her company. We joke and laugh just like I do with the guys I hang with. I consider her a friend and I find I can talk to her about my wife's past cheating, something I can't do with my guy friends. She's helped me figure a few things out and basically been a kind ear. I have not had any physical contact with this woman short of a friendly hug. I didn't hide any of this from my wife. She did not realize the friend I was spending time with was a woman. I told her when asked. I didn't think anything of it. I should say she is also my first female friend. I do guy stuff and work in a STEM field and there are not a lot of women in my rec or work places. My wife freaked out, there was much crying and wailing and please don't leave her, and she spouted a bunch of crap that seemed somewhat hypocritical coming from someone that's carried on a real affair for months. She freaked out even more when she saw a photo of the coworker. Her therapist convinced her I'm having an emotional affair. I didn't even know there was such a thing a month ago. I have no plans to leave my wife for this woman. I don't fantasize about a life with her. I do not flirt with her either. Honestly, I value her friendship, I would not want to offend her in any way. I would not want her to think of me as a cheater either. 

So my wife wants me to end all contact with this woman. I don't think that's necessary. I don't know how to let her know that I don't have any intention of having anything other than a friendship with this woman. So what do you folks think, am I having an emotional affair?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I am not experienced enough to determine that, but if you aren't feeling it, then it's not necessarily an affair. However, it doesn't mean it's appropriate either. If your wife never cheated, I'd be completely against this kind of behavior. It's unfair to her to make her always wonder. She should be the person you do all of this with.

The affair complicates it as you kinda have always held a grudge and had been looking for a way out. I am not saying it makes anything ok or not, just fuzzies the math a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Strictly speaking I'd say no.

That said, the friendship does sound a bit inappropriate, especially considering the fact that you were essentially concealing your friend's gender from your wife.

Also, where is your head at w/ respect to your marriage these days? Are you still looking for an exit?

On a scale of 1 to 10, how committed would you say you are to your wife and marriage?

If your friend made a pass at you, how do you think you'd respond?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Herschel said:


> I am not experienced enough to determine that, but if you aren't feeling it, then it's not necessarily an affair. However, it doesn't mean it's appropriate either. If your wife never cheated, I'd be completely against this kind of behavior. It's unfair to her to make her always wonder. She should be the person you do all of this with.
> 
> The affair complicates it as you kinda have always held a grudge and had been looking for a way out. I am not saying it makes anything ok or not, just fuzzies the math a bit.


The FWW's affair has no bearing on whether or not OP's friendship is appropriate, acceptable, etc.

After all, he stayed KNOWING that she'd cheated.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

You have been open and honest with your wife about this and have not crossed any lines inappropriately,IMO. So,I do not feel you have had an emotional affair.
That might develop at some point,though. You have justifiable resentment and a lack of trust in your wife. She has betrayed you twice,that you know of( and the vast majority of affairs go undetected,forever). Her passing the polygraph ( with an examiner you did not choose and who was specifically selected by your wife,who also paid him...) is not determinative on this issue of the number and extent of past affairs.
She is older now and may sense her sexual market value has diminished,whereas yours,at 46, has not to the same degree.
Why for all the years since you first caught her has she failed to do the work to try to repair what she broke? Only now,when her marketabilty is lower,is she changing. Must make you wonder if yiu are simply her Plan B.
I think you need to look long and hard at her and really think about whether she is worth keeping.
Kids are vrown. Your finances sound like they will be okay. Why stay with a serial cheater( do you really buy that some guy unexpectedly just up and kissed her with no encouragement?).
Me,if I was still 46, I would get out and have fun. I got divorced from my XW at 52, and had no trouble finding nice,attractive women to date. I could also relax as I did not have to worry about my XW cheating anymore.


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

BirdistheWord said:


> Her therapist convinced her I'm having an emotional affair. I didn't even know there was such a thing a month ago. I have no plans to leave my wife for this woman. I don't fantasize about a life with her. I do not flirt with her either. Honestly, I value her friendship, I would not want to offend her in any way. I would not want her to think of me as a cheater either.
> 
> So my wife wants me to end all contact with this woman.



Tell this to your wife. Then go no contact with this woman. Your wife voluntarily stopped all of her girls-night-out (GNOs) to show you that she's all in. You should reciprocate. Also get marriage counseling for your triggers from her past affair (one affair?). Yours is a marriage worth keeping and fighting for.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> The FWW's affair has no bearing on whether or not OP's friendship is appropriate, acceptable, etc.
> 
> After all, he stayed KNOWING that she'd cheated.


Except she did it again,rece tly. Are you buying the 2_3 second uninvited kiss?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Do you think of this coworker when you are at home? Do you text her?
> 
> *This sounds just like me.* Coworker. Younger. Lunches. Gym. STEM field. First female friend. Discuss relationship issues. Hide friendship from wife. And you did hide it!
> 
> If not an EA then it is pretty darn close. I bet she has feelings for you.


Eh... there are a few key differences.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

If I can regain some of the connection, rebuild some of the trust, and gain back some respect, I would stay with my wife. I don't want to stay in a dysfunctional or unsatisfying marriage. I guess I'm at a 6 and climbing if her changes seem permanent.

I am not looking to revenge cheat or punish my wife. No need for added drama. I will just divorce her.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Maxo said:


> Except she did it again,rece tly. Are you buying the 2_3 second uninvited kiss?


Ordinarily I'd be all over that. He (now) seems to be assured of her honesty regarding that incident, though.

Either way, there's no way to make an "except" fit here.

Her decisions are hers, his decisions are his.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> If I can regain some of the connection, rebuild some of the trust, and gain back some respect, I would stay with my wife. I don't want to stay in a dysfunctional or unsatisfying marriage. I guess I'm at a 6 and climbing if her changes seem permanent.
> 
> I am not looking to revenge cheat or punish my wife. No need for added drama. I will just divorce her.


OK. You should probably _at least_ dial back the relationship w/ the friend, if not end it altogether.

I say this because you're not going to be able to fully rebuild things w/ your wife (and yes, you're likely going to have some work to do here as well, even if it amounts to nothing more than just being receptive to your wife's efforts at rebuilding things) w/ this friendship as a distraction.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Ordinarily I'd be all over that. He (now) seems to be assured of her honesty regarding that incident, though.
> 
> Either way, there's no way to make an "except" fit here.
> 
> Her decisions are hers, his decisions are his.


I understand. But,remember who retained the specific polygraph examiner and who paid him. Test was not taken with OP present nor was he involved in the selection or the briefing with the examiner.
He has knowledge of two betrayals. I would select a new examiner at the wife' s expense. The least she can do is resubmit to a test and pay for it.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

I do believe the kiss story. I also spoke to the poly examiner. He was beyond professional on the phone. I got a very professional report too. Professional website, credentials, etc. I don't think he would risk his reputation to cover for a cheating woman. 

I did not intentionally hide the fact she was a woman. It really never came up. I do text her occasionally, but not excessively. 

I will admit, it's hard to just end this friendship because it makes my wife uneasy.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Maxo said:


> I understand. But,remember who retained the specific polygraph examiner and who paid him. Test was not taken with OP present nor was he involved in the selection or the briefing with the examiner.
> He has knowledge of two betrayals. I would select a new examiner at the wife' s expense. The least she can do is resubmit to a test and pay for it.


Think that got past me? 

Still, he's there.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> OK. You should probably _at least_ dial back the relationship w/ the friend, if not end it altogether.
> 
> I say this because you're not going to be able to fully rebuild things w/ your wife (and yes, you're likely going to have some work to do here as well, even if it amounts to nothing more than just being receptive to your wife's efforts at rebuilding things) w/ this friendship as a distraction.


How should I dial it back? I am open with any contact I have with her. I admit the whole emotional affair thing is confusing to me. I am not "in love" with the woman or lusting after her. No fantasies about how great life would be with her.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

Damn, I never considered the poly could be shady. What are the guidelines for that? Good grief, I'm a newb...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

BirdistheWord said:


> I do believe the kiss story. I also spoke to the poly examiner. He was beyond professional on the phone. I got a very professional report too. Professional website, credentials, etc. I don't think he would risk his reputation to cover for a cheating woman.
> 
> I did not intentionally hide the fact she was a woman. It really never came up. I do text her occasionally, but not excessively.
> 
> I will admit, it's hard to just end this friendship because it makes my wife uneasy.


Not to beat a dead horse,but did she consult you on the selection ?
Also,how does she explain the kiss? Completely unexpected with nothing leading up to it?
I know it is theoretically possible that some guy just,out of the blue,took it into his head to kiss a maarried woman but seems a bit strange.
Also, do the one-mississippi.... Up to three. Does she have slow reflexes or something?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> I do believe the kiss story. I also spoke to the poly examiner. He was beyond professional on the phone. I got a very professional report too. Professional website, credentials, etc. I don't think he would risk his reputation to cover for a cheating woman.
> 
> I did not intentionally hide the fact she was a woman. It really never came up. I do text her occasionally, but not excessively.
> 
> I will admit, it's hard to just end this friendship because it makes my wife uneasy.


Believe me, I get that.

But this is your marriage, man. You need to be all in or all out -- no half-measures.

Plus there's this: your kids are at the age where they'll soon be coupling off themselves, and -- by your own words -- they've probably witnessed no shortage of marital dysfunction in listening to you and your wife argue back and forth for the better part of the past two decades. So either model a healthy marital reconciliation or model a mature marital dissolution.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> Damn, I never considered the poly could be shady. What are the guidelines for that? Good grief, I'm a newb...


Well, if she excluded you from the process (and ESPECIALLY if she picked her own questions), you'd have been wise to scrutinize it, IMO.

Maybe call your local police department and find out if the guy is reputable.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> How should I dial it back? I am open with any contact I have with her. I admit the whole emotional affair thing is confusing to me. I am not "in love" with the woman or lusting after her. No fantasies about how great life would be with her.


Again, if you're making a decision to commit to your marriage, then you need to be all in. That means taking your wife's concerns, insecurities, etc into consideration.

As for dialing it back, maybe eliminate any time spent alone w/ her. Go to lunch only when others are present. Stop working out w/ her.

Have you considered introducing your friend to your wife? Maybe she could be a mutual friend.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

BirdistheWord said:


> How should I dial it back? I am open with any contact I have with her. I admit the whole emotional affair thing is confusing to me. I am not "in love" with the woman or lusting after her. No fantasies about how great life would be with her.


I think when you are dealing with a known cheater,like your wife,projection comes into play.
Because of hrr own proclivities in this area,she is unable to imagine a man and woman being friends with no sexual interest component.
I had an old girlfriend like that who was extremely jealous of my old female friends. This old girlfriend was very promiscuous and fixated on sex.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Gus is giving you excellent advice about the other women.

The main reason you should dial way way back if not end the friendship completely in my view is that you are still a married man and your wife is uncomfortable with the relationship and has asked you to end it. That should be enough. While it may not be an emotional affair, yet, it is on a path where it could easily turn into one or even a PA. The fact is, right now as a friendship, it is still a threat to your marriage. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be here asking anything about it. 

You need to make a decision about your marriage, as Gus said, you need to be all the way in or all the way out. If your out, then you don't need to end the friendship. If your in, then the other women needs to be all the way out. And you and your wife need to work with a counselor to see if you can finally fix your issues and your marriage. in order to do that, there needs to be no distractions. The other women, friend or more, either way, has become a distraction and a danger to your marriage relationship. 

Personally, my gut feeling is you are a little more invested in the other women then you are willing to admit. If your wife had a male friendship exactly like the one you have with this women, did things alone with him, texted him, talked about you and your marriage with him, helped his kids, etc. etc, would you be bothered by it, and would she be able to convince you that it was only a friendship? And if you asked her to end it and she refused, how would you feel about her refusal? 

You didn't answer the question that someone else asked - or maybe I missed it - what would you do if the other women came onto you or expressed an interest in more than a friendship?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Are you talking about things with this woman that you wouldn't talk about (and currently AREN'T talking about) with your wife? Seems so. If you were to imagine your wife were sitting next to you while you were with this woman, how do you think she would feel about the kinds of things you are sharing, like your personal marriage issues? It's one thing to share here... We are all strangers. This woman becomes more familiar to you, and you to her, by virtue of your exchange of personal information...the express purpose (and ultimate result) of which is the formation of a greater emotional bond. It makes you feel less alone, doesn't it?

I'm sorry but I can't agree with some posters here. You are in the mid stages of an EA as far as I am concerned. You are on a slippery slope.

You decided to take your wife back. You decided not to carry forward with divorce. If you're regretting that decision now or trying to get some of your own validation back, then divorce your wife cleanly and share with all the women you want. 

Did your wife care to show the same courtesy? No, she did what she wanted to do, and it was a [email protected], selfish thing to do to you and to the relationship. Then she let slip again with the kiss. 

Regardless, your actions were to take her back. So, either divorce her, or invest the lunch dates, the gym workouts, the "you're the only person that GETS me" and the workplace chit chat in your wife.

Alternatively, you can keep on doing what you're doing, and get your power and your confidence back from a woman looking more and more interesting than your wife as each day passes. That's a lot of power you're giving to this woman, by the way, a woman that doesn't seem to have a problem crossing or disrespecting marriage boundaries IMO.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I would think it wildly inappropriate if my husband was going on lunch dates with another woman 2-3 times a week and also working out at the gym with her. Add to that having inappropriate conversations about our marriage and personal life. Then if I asked him to stop seeing her, he hemmed and hawed about it, that would be the beginning of the end. I'm so thankful that my husband has such an amazingly good character and great boundaries.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I guess I don't understand why you see this woman so much. 2-3 times a week? Plus workouts? I mean I don't even see my girlfriends or go to lunch with my female coworkers that much. The suggestion is that married couples spend at least 15 hours together a week. It looks like you're spending that much time with this other woman than with your wife.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You know, that was awfully nice of HER therapist to analyse you using the technique of remote viewing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zanwalk (Mar 29, 2016)

This has all the potential to develop into an EA, if it isn't already there. You may not be there yet, but you can't know what this other woman's secret thoughts, desires, plans may be. She is unattached, you are not, a dangerous situation that could, wittingly or not, develop into something more serious. I would echo the advice of others here, do not have contact with this woman outside of work, do not have lunch with her unless others are present, and be totally open with your wife about when you do bump into her. And texting her is a definite no, unless it was for work.

All that assumes of course that you want the marriage to survive, and for it to survive it must have the 100% commitment of both partners, otherwise it will fail. You have to really answer some difficult questions about your marriage, be truthful with yourself, and if you want out, be clear about that, otherwise it will lead to a very messy situation for all involved.


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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

Seems to me that you basically friendzoned your coworker. You use her to vent about your marriage but don't invest much emotion in this relationship. Ask yourself why a single woman would listen to a married man talking about his wife cheating on him years ago. It has the possibility to grow into an EA, it's not there yet, at least from your side.

But your relationship to your coworker is only one problem. It's linked to your other problem, your marriage.

If you want to continue being married to your wife you have to stop the relationship to your coworker or at least tone it down (eating lunch as coworkers is ok, gym and talking about your wife's affair? Not really.) If she has feelings for you and you don't have them for her you may even want to stop it if you don't stay married.

Regarding the poly, first it has its problems regarding reliability, second there is no objectivity and third the wording of the questions is very important. Some questions sound good but if you think about them they leave huge gaps to hide in.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

BirdistheWord said:


> This is my first post on this type of forum. If I break a rule, cut a fella some slack. I found this forum while looking for info about emotional affairs. I wish I would have found this place years ago.
> 
> I've been married almost 23yrs. My wife had an affair almost 17yrs ago. Her affair lasted 6 months. We have 3 children that are for all intents and purposes grown. The youngest still lives at home but she is an adult. They were all under 5 years old when the affair happened. Ugh, sucks just typing things like that.
> 
> ...


You are having an emotional affair. Your emotional needs are being met by someone outside the marriage, and you are meeting hers. It seems that you are attracted to this woman. Now you have to decide what you are going to do. A revenge affair would be pointless and destructive. If your marriage is hopeless then come clean with your wife.


> ...I wasn't meeting her emotional needs, blah, blah, and more blah. My wife blamed me for her actions. She maintained I was mean to her and I made her feel unloved.


She's laid a bunch of junk on you, blaming you for her bad behavior, blaming you for the affair she had when the only persons who had a hand in that decision was her-and her AP. You might look into working the 180 Recovery. Although the affair happened a while ago you still harbor unresolved anger issues. (Please note I do not say _*unwarranted*_.) And since you recognize that the blame shifting is a bunch of buffalo bagels that is one of the steps knocked out.



> So my wife wants me to end all contact with this woman. I don't think that's necessary. I don't know how to let her know that I don't have any intention of having anything other than a friendship with this woman.


The best laid plans of mice and men... What you intend and what actually happens are two different things. Just to be fair to the three of you.



> We still had sex, a lot of sex actually, but the intimacy part was missing. Go ahead and call me a sissy, but you all know what I mean.


Intimacy is a tragic victim of our porncentric culture. People seem to thing that as long as they are humping like rabbits all is good, right, and well with the world. The knotheads fail to understand that sex is 90% cerebral. (Yes, the brain is our biggest sex organ...) All five senses are involved in love making but there is also the mental/emotional side. Any slob can find temporary satisfaction with a one night stand but the long term joy is found in a loving, committed relationship. So no judgement there, brother.

OK, I digressed. So, it seems that the only questions here now are who are you going to go with? If you choose the GF, how will hooking up change your dynamic-both at work and off the clock? Consider the consequences.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Don't think you're in an emotional affair just yet but it's definitely an inappropriate relationship and has all the qualities of being the beginning of an affair.

Talking about your marriage and your wife with her is bad enough, but the time spent with her, her kid, the working out together, etc. IMO not appropriate in your position, especially if your wife feels the way she does about her and you say you're willing to work on the marriage. If that's the case, the friend needs to go. If you've checked out of the marriage however, feel free to keep the friend and work on ending your marriage.

The fact that your wife does not want you to have any sort of relationship with this woman IMO should be more than enough reason to cut it off, again that's if you're both willing to work on your relationship. Especially since based on what you say, I can understand why she would feel threatened (although as someone else mentioned I wouldn't be surprised if there was some projection on your wife's part as well).


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I do not think this is an emotional affair. I think this lady-friend is a placeholder for the wife-friend you are lacking at home. It is probably inappropriate, but not an affair. 

I think the real elephant in the room is not this woman, or not even the unresolved issues you have with your wife's past cheating episodes. The 20 ton pachyderm here is the fact that you no longer love your wife, and I think you are talking yourself into a divorce once the kids are grown and out of the house. Frankly, that is what I would do if I were in your shoes. 

From the way you write and describe your wife, you see her as a nice lady who you used to love deeply, but who crapped on you early in the marriage and never made proper amends for what she did. That killed any deep love you had for her. You just won't admit it. She is probably a decently average mom who has done a decent job raising your kids, and for that you swallowed your goad and stayed with her. But her Dark Passenger raised its ugly head again and she let a dude kiss her. 

The pachyderm second in line to the water hole, is that, IMO, your wife no longer really loves you either, and she probably has not loved you since her affair fifteen years ago. She likes you, tolerates you enough to have sex with you, but the love boat sailed away from her a long long time ago. You are a steady guy, a good provider, probably a good dad, and so she stays with you because you tolerate her bullsh!t and you are a safer bet than most of the losers she would be able to attract at this point in her life. 

Your wife never did a damn thing, until she got caught again, to even attempt to reform her cheating ways. Those piss poor, paper-thin boundaries are still in place. My prediction is that, you will get rid of this lady friend, your wife will calm down and things will go back to being copacetic after a while. You and your wife will settle back into the old routine, she will no longer feel threatened or scared of losing her nest, and after the last kid is gone she will walk in one day and give you the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech, and she will tell you that she needs some time away from you to go "discover herself" and "find out what she wants" out of life. She'll move out and two weeks later word will make it to your ears that she is dating other men, and so on and so forth....

Your future is boringly predictable. Just spend some time here in TAM and do lots of reading of lots of threads. You will see the same pattern over and over. 

Your wife is with you only out of convenience. A wife who truly loved her husband would have walked through fire to make herself into a safe partner. Your wife just keeps throwing you the occasional scraps and doing the bare minimum she needs to do to keep you hanging around. That is why this lady-friend of yours scares the hell out of her. For the first time in your marriage, all her wiles and manipulation and maneuvers are no longer going to work on you. You upped your sex rank with her and she realizes, to her shock, that you are a man who can easily befriend and attract younger, better women than her....and that she is easily replaceable. That has to scare the sh!t out of her. 

Your biggest mistake was not divorcing her long ago when she rug swept her affair. Now you have a decision to make, and it really has nothing to do with the lady-friend. Do you want to spend the rest of your life chained to a maybe? That is what your wife is: a maybe.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

You are on the cusp of being in one. What you are doing is confiding in someone who is not your spouse. You are talking about your wife with another woman. That is a no no. You cannot be doing this and expect your wife to be ok with it. 

How would you feel if she this to another man? Telling another man all your deepest secrets and all the things you did wrong. You would not like it. 

You are setting the stage for an intimate relationship by confiding to her all of your martial woes. 

You should read "Not Just Friends" by Shriley Glass. She talks about building walls and seperating yourself from your spouse. How when you invite someone into your life you open windows for them to see you but while those windows and walls are coming down for the new person. You are shutting windows and putting up walls around your spouse. Read the book it will help you understand where you are heading.

Another thing. You can't be 50/50 on your marriage. It will never work. You are still punishing your wife for her actions by choosing not to be a 100% in the marriage. Best thing to do is to analyze how you feel at this time and make a choice. Don't waste your time and life is you are not 100% committed.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Take your wife' affair many moons ago out of this.

If she was having a friendship with a man that you were uncomfortable with - what would you do if you asked her to end it and she wouldn't based on the fact that it was just because YOU didn't like it?

You respect her feelings on it and put her first. Otherwise, you are specifically choosing to ignore her needs.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Maxo said:


> I understand. But,remember who retained the specific polygraph examiner and who paid him. Test was not taken with OP present nor was he involved in the selection or the briefing with the examiner.
> He has knowledge of two betrayals. I would select a new examiner at the wife' s expense. The least she can do is resubmit to a test and pay for it.


yes I agree MAXO. Before he breaks any friendships (though I agree with Gus that he should dial it back just a notch but I wouldn't call this an EA yet either), I would get the full truth from the wife.

I do think OP is scarred from her having a 6 month affair while the kids were 5 years old or younger (and yes his wife's reaction to it in blaming him made things worse) and the horrible marriage counselor is another example why I will never go to marriage counseling because noone should ever be blamed for their spouse cheating.. Period. 

His wife is finally dealing with consequences for her affair 20 years later by facing what she feels is an emotional affair (or maybe she feels it's more) from her husband, whether right or wrong. It shows her cakeeating ability.. Maybe she will now reflect upon herself more and what's broken inside of her but OP needs to stay above the fray and not cheat. He needs to find out the extent of her affair/affairs and know the truth then decide if he should stay or go. If he stays after she shows significant improvement, he needs to commit.

I will applaud the OP for putting up barriers to protect himself early on in this marriage early since his wife was unreliable.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Might be a good idea to end the friendship,as others have suggested. But,I think it is critical that you do not let your wife characterize it as n emotional affair. She is trying to get some type of moral equivalency or highground so she can equate this with her two( at least) physical betryals.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

It seems there is some common ground here in all the posts.

Forget the labels on this friendship. Labels mean nothing at this point.

OP, you need to get to a point where you will decide if you stay with wife or leave. If you decide to stay with wife, your one-on-one friendship with this coworker needs to end. That is not what you want to here, but you will need to put ALL your mental and emotional energy into restoring your marriage. If you decide to leave, then stay friends with the woman. You may not think about bedding her, but you are putting some emotional energy her way. And very likely she is falling for you or will. If she decides to up the stakes, you might eventually follow suit. If you fall for other woman, with all the other issues such as your wife's cheating, your marriage is toast. 

Again, take it from me, as I know, it really really sucks for you if you have to give up this friendship. But the advice from the other posts is proper and right. I am having trouble with that and hope by me telling you the posts are right it might sink into my thick head.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

It is unfair. She cheats repeatedly and you must abide by the rules set by the person with the lowest morals. This because she could not resist cheating if she was in your position.
Lowest common denominator for morals sets the rules.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Maxo said:


> It is unfair. She cheats repeatedly and you must abide by the rules set by the person with the lowest morals. This because she could not resist cheating if she was in your position.
> Lowest common denominator for morals sets the rules.


I agree Maxo. I also think Bandit struck gold above


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> I do not think this is an emotional affair. I think this lady-friend is a placeholder for the wife-friend you are lacking at home. It is probably inappropriate, but not an affair.
> 
> I think the real elephant in the room is not this woman, or not even the unresolved issues you have with your wife's past cheating episodes. The 20 ton pachyderm here is the fact that you no longer love your wife, and I think you are talking yourself into a divorce once the kids are grown and out of the house. Frankly, that is what I would do if I were in your shoes.
> 
> ...


agreed, bandit. 100%


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## zzzman99 (Oct 23, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I do not think this is an emotional affair. I think this lady-friend is a placeholder for the wife-friend you are lacking at home. It is probably inappropriate, but not an affair.
> 
> I think the real elephant in the room is not this woman, or not even the unresolved issues you have with your wife's past cheating episodes. The 20 ton pachyderm here is the fact that you no longer love your wife, and I think you are talking yourself into a divorce once the kids are grown and out of the house. Frankly, that is what I would do if I were in your shoes.
> 
> ...


Brilliant analysis


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> The FWW's affair has no bearing on whether or not OP's friendship is appropriate, acceptable, etc.
> 
> After all, he stayed KNOWING that she'd cheated.


I agree, and lots of people stay knowing that they don't really know anything. Feelings change, resentment sometimes builds. I am not telling you anything you don't know. My point wasn't that the emotional affair depended on whether she cheated or not, but rather, what his mind may be straying to do. Subconsciously.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Gus and Bandit are spot on. 

My 2 cents, if what you have disclosed about this coworker is accurate and you haven't held back anything. Then it's not an emotional affair. Yet. 

But, you admit she is attractive and you have a lot in common. And you obviously place a lot of value on your friendship with her. That plus the doubts you have in your relationship with your wife are a recipe for an emotional affair. It will detract from repairing your marriage, your wife is right to be concerned. She also may be projecting, cheaters have a way of worrying about the worst in their spouse. She may feel you have already taken it much further than you actually have. You could always offer to take a poly. This coworker is divorced. She may not be the type to hook up with a married man. So, she is enjoying your company as she waits to see where your relationship heads. It's entirely possible she is playing the long game with you and is not a friend to your marriage. 

The first choice you should make is if you want to be all in or not in repairing your marriage. That's not an easy decision. Is your wife worth losing this friend? If the answer to that is no, then you should head down the divorce path. If you are 'all in', then you should cut off any non-business contact with this coworker. If you are too uncertain yet to do that. Then do as others have suggested. Stop working out with her, no texting and only socialize with her in the presence of other coworkers or with your wife present.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Herschel said:


> I agree, and lots of people stay knowing that they don't really know anything. Feelings change, resentment sometimes builds. I am not telling you anything you don't know. My point wasn't that the emotional affair depended on whether she cheated or not, but rather, what his mind may be straying to do. Subconsciously.


Or consciously.

Either way, good points.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> If I can regain some of the connection, rebuild some of the trust, and gain back some respect, I would stay with my wife. I don't want to stay in a dysfunctional or unsatisfying marriage. I guess I'm at a 6 and climbing if her changes seem permanent.
> 
> I am not looking to revenge cheat or punish my wife. No need for added drama. I will just divorce her.


I believe you are now in a position that divorce would not be off the table for your marriage as your children are now adults. Your W just figured that out after the last kissing episode. In short, you are her best bet and will appear to want to get her act together....and it only took 17 years. Why not stay the course you planned years ago? Your W only recently re-enforced who she really is with the latest activity with OM and a kiss. 

As for your EA....I don't buy it nor is it to be a distraction to the real issue your W instigated years ago. I think you have had enough with the carpet sweeping.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

This kind of reminds me of @Wazza. 

He is in a long term marriage with a W who cheated on him many years ago. He has lady friends that he sometimes discusses personal issues with.

Not an EA, not a PA and he has no desire to go there.

I say let the 2 ladies meet, and let your W deal with her own insecurities. Rest assured they are her insecurities and her problem, not yours.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Is it romantic? No. 

Are you picking another woman over disruptions to your marriage? Yes. 

So, ya, I call an EA. 

Is your wife going to cheat on you again?

Most likely. 

Are you going do beat her to it?

Almost certainly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Tron said:


> I say let the 2 ladies meet, and let your W deal with her own insecurities. Rest assured they are her insecurities and her problem, not yours.


Really? So you would have no problem with your wife or SO having lunch dates 2-3 times a week and going to the gym with another man? It's okay for her to place all her energy and time in another relationship instead of the one with you?

I mean, the OP made it quite clear that he finds the OW attractive.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

BirdistheWord said:


> How should I dial it back?


Just dial it back for now until you decide what you want to do about your marriage.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

soccermom2three said:


> Really? So you would have no problem with your wife or SO having lunch dates 2-3 times a week and going to the gym with another man? It's okay for her to place all her energy and time in another relationship instead of the one with you?
> 
> I mean, the OP made it quite clear that he finds the OW attractive.


If I had cheated repeatedly and blame shifted and rug swept,I would certainly understand,feeling I had lost standing to object.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Maxo said:


> If I had cheated repeatedly and blame shifted and rug swept,I would certainly understand,feeling I had lost standing to object.


He made the choice to remain married. Be married until you're not.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Birdistheword,

I have to agree that you should make sure the polygraph was not rigged, if you waited 17 years for the truth your WW can put up with a second polygraph.

One approach is to write out a list of questions, everything you can think of in a notebook and have WW write her answers. Having her write out her answers will also help her avoid the evasions of conversation. Six months is a long affair did she write out a timeline?

The polygraph then mostly consists of asking if WW answered the questions in the notebook truthfully. Your WW has to purge all her lies.

Your WW could have also made up the questions in such a way, for example wording the questions with man, that if she had sex with a woman she would still have passed. Or something like are you being truthful about the two affairs, when their could have been 5, etc. Did you get to read the questions.

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Birdistheword,

A few questions about your recovery. 

Where is the OM from 17 years ago does your WW ever have contact of any kind? I hope your WW does not still work with him

Do your kids know his kids, are there people who kept quiet about the affair or supported it who are still in your life, if your WW best friend did she has to go.

Did you ever out the OM to his W or GF, family, workplace, church, linked, facebook, etc. What were the consequences for the OM? 

Did you confront the OM?

Did you get rid of all the gifts and tokens of affection from the affair, photographs etc. Taken an axe to furniture they were on, threw out the clothes she wore.

Did the OM dump your WW or vice versa?

Sometimes a WW will maintain her love for an OM for a long, long time leaving you as a second choice. This could account for why your WW never became intimate with you again. I know in my case, OM-1 20+ years ago, my WW has always thought well of him, and also I never felt that kissing was sincere after that, as you said sex but no intimacy.

There is nothing sissy about wanting intimacy, good kissing leads to orgasms twice as intense.

My read is that your WW continued to flirt with other men on the job and go out drinking with them etc until the incident a few years ago.

Was the OM who kissed your W reported to personnel, does your WW still work with him, and most importantly have you told his W what happened. You need to speak with him.

Tamat


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

I'm fishing at the Texas Riveria with my son and dad. I read the replies and I appreciate everyone's input. 

I did read the poly questions. I don't think it's rigged but I will suggest another. My wife is frantic now. She's doing everything she can. I have let her see all texts between me and coworker. I'm not hiding anything. My wife may have horrible boundaries and character but I do not. I will not physically cheat with this woman. I am still married. The EA thing is confusing to me. Her therapist suggested Not Just Friends too. I will read it. Divorce is definitely on the table. I'm finding it very hard to pull the trigger. My wife is not all bad. It's a complicated situation. I'll read the replies some more and reply in a bit more detail. 

Thanks again folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Birdistheword,

You need to recover from your WWs infidelity first, being close with this OW is an impediment in the way of that goal. Even if you divorce you still need to clean up your WWs affairs.

Even if the OW became your GF or wife at sometime in the future, would you really want someone who was will to form an emotional bond with a married man?

Tamat


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

soccermom2three said:


> He made the choice to remain married. Be married until you're not.


Having friends is not a violation of the marriage vows.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Not being a smart-ass here but how do you have a friend you lunch with 2-3 times a week, go to the gym with & give the son algebra lessons to without revealing their gender to your spouse. 
Is her name one of those names that could be a boy or a girl?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Two wrongs do not make a right.

You are having an affair, whether sex is involved or not. The things you are telling the other woman have made her think that you are at least emotionally available -- and you are telling her those things because you want her to think just that. She is investing herself in you, even going as far as to join the same club to work out with you, so she can spend time with you. Be honest with yourself and admit it. You are not doing yourself a favor by denying it.

I don't blame you for wanting it, by the way. And I know how difficult it is to pull the trigger on separation and divorce. It sounds like you have a good family, a good relationship with your children. You have shared friends, maybe go to church together. A divorce will be a financial hardship. There are a lot of things to lose. The hardest part must be dreading what your children will think, how it will affect your relationship with them. They will be OK. So do what you have wanted to do for what sounds like a long time. And maybe you will find that closeness and companionship you need with this new friend. But for it to be right, and not just in the eyes of others, you should not be investing in another relationship while you are yet married.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Two questions. Would you be ok if your wife had a male friend provided there were no sexual attraction? Do you care enough about your wife's comfort to drop this woman? You are opening up the possibility that your wife may take the same liberties as you and to treat your concerns with indifference. 

In a close emotionally bonded relationship, a problem for one person is a problem for both. You may be more emotionally bonded with this woman than you realize. 

The intimacy you have with this women is really one you should have with your wife, no? Can you transfer that to your marriage and wife. I don't think you can work on your marriage and have this friendship at the same time. 

Maybe you are finished with the marriage and that is why you have difficulty giving up the friendship. Your wife cheated on you twice and there is no guarantee that she will not cheat again. Can you form a trusting loving friendship with her , one that you would have a hard time giving up?


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BirdistheWord said:


> I did read the poly questions. I don't think it's rigged but I will suggest another.


Why? Polygraphs are completely unreliable. Even if you want to believe they can sometimes be reliable, how do you know if your results are a false positive, false negative, true negative, or true positive? Everyone says it depends on the examiner and so on, but at the end of the day the indisputable fact is that there is absolutely no way to be certain, so I guess I just don't see the point. No matter what the results are, you still have to guess if the test results are accurate and haven't accomplished anything. 

If you don't trust her, then you don't trust her. The questionable result of a test isn't going to change that. It seems like your choices boil down to either committing to rebuilding trust with her, living in a marriage without trust, or let the marriage go.

I agree that your wife asking you to end your friendship with this woman should be enough. She has legitimate concerns. If your friend is your priority regardless of your wife's feelings, then that says a lot. If your wife and marriage are your priority, then act like it.

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

Best to you both


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@Maxo quoted: Also, do the one-Mississippi.... Up to three times. Does she have slow reflexes or something?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________


;-}


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Catherine602 said:


> Two questions. Would you be ok if your wife had a male friend provided there were no sexual attraction? Do you care enough about your wife's comfort to drop this woman? You are opening up the possibility that your wife may take the same liberties as you and to treat your concerns with indifference.
> 
> In a close emotionally bonded relationship, a problem for one person is a problem for both. You may be more emotionally bonded with this woman than you realize.
> 
> ...


This has to be the best response, thank you @Catherine602.

The Moral High Ground is not some arbitrary clump of dirt in the "Stuff of Dreams".

Morally, you cannot use silver halide to change the tone of one's desired Truth.

This is an emotional affair. You are sharing intimate details of your marriage with another women. Co-worker OW is not your marriage counselor.

Return her to the status of co-worker. Tell her why. She has a right to know [that fact] and little after the fact. 

I know, this will be hard to do since you do work together and she has been kind to you. I also agree with some of the other posters; she may have inappropriate feelings for you. 

Work this out @BirdistheWord. If you do not, the blame-shifted pigeon that you de-feathered, will be around *your* neck, ill-starred Mariner.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You and I am alike in both have WW. I did not have children, and we did not reconcile. The last 6 years of my marriage where basically sexless. I did almost have two EA with woman I worked with but did not and dailed it back. 

On both occasions there came a moment when i realized the most natural thing in the world to me was to simply reach out and hold their hand. No lust, no day dreams, just walking down the street and holding their hand as we talked. Both times where an oh **** moment and while I did not cease contact I did limited what we spoke about and contact, like lunches and going to the gym in your case. Would you feel comfortable holding her hand? 

There are two prople in a marriage. Neither truly knows what the other is thinking and feeling. Take a moment and look at what she sees: 

Her husband spends a lot of non-work related time with another woman. They share a great deal of personal information and appears to be bonding as both of them are BS. 

He is spending time with her son tutoring her son. (this is why her the therapist thinks you are in an EA. Before you say no, you talked with her about her divorce, got advise as to best way to divorce with her and oh her son is already comforatable with him.

If your wife posted these facts a lot of posters would firmly believe you most likely are having an adulterous affair. Oh, when you where tutoring her son, was it at her place and did she feed you? 

So yes from her POV you are in an EA and her pain is real. You are her husband, protect her and not how she failed you 17 years ago. I strongly suggest you both need to find an MC to help you deal with her adultery and her recent mis-adventured. It can be done. Ad this post is getting very long I will stop and ask you for your thoughts on what I have posted. 

Be well


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

To be clear your issues with her provide solid grounds for divorce, but not adultery. She needs to be willing and anxious to discuss what happened 17 years ago and the "kiss" and acknowledge what that did to the both of you. Here are two links one by a poster @LosingHim on this forum and one from another forum.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/306482-whats-worst-thing-about-infidelity.html

Things that every wayward spouse needs to know - LoveShack.org Community Forums


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## weltschmerz (Feb 18, 2016)

What's keeping you in this marriage? Kids grown up, right?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

EA is usually secretive or something you wouldn't want your spouse to know about.

The problem is would you be comfortable with your wife having this close of a connection?

I think you're to close. Even if it's not a classic EA over time it can develope into one.

You'd be wise to back off and not discuss personal or marital issues at all.

80% of affairs start with a friendship.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I think you should keep your friend. Your wife is getting lead on by her theropist and knows what she has done to you.

I have a female friend where I was working. We keep in touch once or twice a week, my wife knows all about it and ask on occasion how she is doing, she is expecting her first child. The problem your wife is there is no trust. She knows what she is capable of and thinks the same of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Woman here. See a psychologist. You need to build your self-esteem. I believe that your strong friendship with your co-worker is a distraction for you from your unstable marriage. I agree with the posters here on their recommendation to "dial back" from your friendship with your co-worker. This means for you not to be too involved in her everyday affairs, but just be a casual friend. Work on yourself.

You are willing to take crumbs from your cheating wife. I don't believe that she only had kissed the Other Man. She is an adulterous woman. She most likely have cheated on you many times before, but you didn't know or simply looked away.

Your children are now grown up. It's time for you to stop looking over your shoulders and be in the lookout for your cheating wife. Live a life. You either leave this marriage or continue to be tormented.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I agree. It is extremely unlikely,IMO, that these are your wife's only two episodes of cheating.
Most cheating is never discovered. You know for certain of two. What are the odds that you know everything?
Think about it: 17 years between discoveries. Your wife did nothing to fix herself or the marriage during that time. Now,you find she kissed a man recently.
I would say it is almost a certainty that cheating occurred during the interim.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think the labelling is only marginally important in this case. What you have is a relationship with a younger, divorced, attractive woman whom you like and admire. This is happening against a backdrop of a shaky marriage. Your W has a gut feeling that it is inappropriate and a threat to your marriage.

I think that you should try to clearly separate some things. Ask yourself if you really want to try to reconcile your marriage. If you want to seriously attempt to work with your WW to finally deal with her cheating, then you should give that an honest shot. That means taking the OW out of the equation. If you find that your OS relationship with the OW is important enough to you that you will stand your ground with this, then I think you have answered the question of whether you want to give your M an honest try.

If you were single right now, would you consider a romantic relationship with the OW? Be truthful about this. It tells you a lot, in my opinion.

(My H sounded exactly like you for a number of years re a co-worker of his. I stood my ground that the 'friendship' was inappropriate. I was getting to the point where I was getting my ducks in a row when he made moves to disengage from her. He wasn't happy, but he did it. 

Now, a few years later, he volunteers his opinion that he sees my point, that his anger and self-righteousness stopped him from even trying to view it from a spouse's perspective. I don't have a history of infidelity, so we had a very 'clean' slate in that regard when it came to any detachment or justification he might have felt.)

I'm just saying that if you want to work on your marriage, you shouldn't be justifying hurting your spouse by maintaining an OS friendship that many already consider an EA. If you don't want to reconcile your M, then OK. Just be as clear as possible on what your goals are.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I think that trying to decide if this is or isn't an affair is distracting you from understanding whether this friendship is healthy or not. Many affairs begin with seemingly harmless conversations where an unhappy spouse tells a sympathetic ear about why he/she is unhappy. The sympathetic ear says "It's so sad that you're unhappy." and that sympathy fosters deeper feelings in both of them. After a few deep conversations affirming this unhappiness and consoling, the unhappy spouse is hungry for affirmation and the person doing the consoling wants to give it. Suddenly they are emotionally attached, and soon seeking physical comfort with each other.

Always? No. But enough to consider this friendship a very real threat to a stressed marriage. "It just happened" isn't true. It is predictable and preventable. "Good friendships" like the one that you describe create _opportunities_ for that sort of thing to happen, and that is why they are so dangerous. When you're going through a rough patch in your marriage, that phone number becomes an outlet for self medicating; someone to call to have a sympathetic ear to talk to ... and that's how it starts. During these rough times when we really need to be talking to our spouse and doing the hard work to make our marriage healthy again, that friend is available who is easier to talk to, easier to get along with, and who is a sympathetic ear. Will we pick the hard and emotionally exhausting path when an easier one is available? Letting go of that friendship will help you focus on and nurture your marriage by keeping your focus on your wife and marriage.

If the worst is true, that you are creating a "Plan B" relationship (even if subconsciously), then you only have one foot in your marriage. Letting it go will give you the opportunity to reconcile or make a clean break with your wife on the merits of your marriage, not on the lure of a new relationship.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

There is a lot of good info posted here. I really do appreciate the insight. I looked at the poly report again. The examiner actually helped her with the questions because there was some overlap and he wanted to make sure they were as clear cut as possible. Again, in my opinion, the poly is legit. The poly indicated there have been any other instances of cheating. The kiss is a big deal to me. I am not giving her a pass. 

I also read through Not Just Friends. I can see where I'm on a slippery slope but I don't think I've crossed the line into any kind of affair yet. I will also admit the concept of an EA seems a bit ridiculous to me. 

Some of what bandit.45 wrote is true and some of it is not. My wife and I have very different recollections of the years after her affair. She apparently has grown more connected to me and I have grown detached. Truthfully, I really can't figure out why she stays. She has a very good job and makes almost as much money as I do. She would be okay financially on her own. I have put her through the wringer the last 2 years. I don't treat her in a very loving way. I do what I want without consulting her, made her go to consults on post nups, I've called her names, thrown her out of the house, and demeaned her sexually. I've been an ******* and she's bought book after book, gone to therapy, openly discussed issues, apologized hundreds of times, and done a bunch of self introspection. She cheated and now I'm the ******* in the marriage. 

I honestly don't know how to proceed from here. I don't want to stay in a damaged marriage and I don't want to break up my family. It's easy to say divorce the damn woman already but the reality of kids, future grandkids, retirement, 401ks, pets, properties, your home, inlaws, and a whole bunch of other things make the decision very difficult to make. I also know I will never get remarried if I divorce. 

So, besides stop acting like an *******, how do I go about fixing my marriage?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Once someone cheats,as your wife has done,it seems to destroy the marriage. Very rarely can it be salvaged.
I would suggest counseling if you want to attempt it. No guarantee.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Try some marriage counseling, but from the way you describe how you treat your wife, you are a man with deep resentments towards her. Given what she did that is understandable. But abusing her emotionally and acting like a douche is not right either. You are setting a bad example for your kids and you are creating a hostile home environment.

I will reiterate what I said before...you no longer love your WW. And again I say, that is understandable given what she did to you. But you need to sh!t or get off the pot. 

From what I can tell, you have had one foot out the door for years now, and that is why your WW has upped her game and has been extra affectionate and accommodating towards you. But see, the problem is, she is doing all that out of fear. Fear, not love or desire. And that is not the kind of affection you want or need from a wife. 

Your marriage is broken, and has been for a long time. It can be saved, but you have to want it. It doesn't sound to me like you want it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Your marriage is broken, and has been for a long time. It can be saved, but you have to want it. It doesn't sound to me like you want it.


This ^^^. 

@bandit.45 is right. OP, do you still want to be married to your wife? Forget the 401K and pets crap, if you had to make a decision right now, yes or no, what would you decide, and why? Just think about that.

Is your wife still your best friend? It is no coincidence your other friend is a woman. You are doing things with her, even if not romantic, that you want to do with your wife. You crave a true friendship with your wife. You do not have that.

As the others have said, go all in or get out. It is possible, even probable, if you go all in you can make this work. That is, if you want to make it work. It sounds like you do - "how do I go about fixing my marriage?"


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

Oh, I'm definitely pot sitting. Do I want to be married as it is now? No. Would I stay if some of these issues could be worked out? Yes. I just don't know how to go about letting go of things. I am not going to go to marriage counselling. I believe this issue isn't resolved because of marriage counselling. 

Maybe it is time to put a bullet in this thing and call it done. I suppose for my own peace of mind I want to make sure I did what I could before killing it. I know some folks here are divorced, there's no denying there's collateral damage (things I mentioned before) when a marriage is dissolved. 

My wife and I are friends. We do things together. I just don't know how to get back intimacy, trust, respect and all the other little things that have been a casualty of cheating. It may not be possible. I do think it would be easier for me to just start over with another person. I will never get remarried though.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I think your last post was very insightful. It would appear you and your wife have many good reasons to divorce. First her actions and now your actions have created a toxic environment. Would I be correct in thinking the "kiss" incident has served as a wake up call to her for the need to change? 

I was surprised she left the family home when you told her to get out. Why did she? As to you having property in your name only, most states I believe would consider it a marital assets if bought with income from you while married. If it was an inheritance and was not commingled with martial assets it might qualify as a non-marital asset. For your sake I suggest talking to a lawyer. 

Your last post, I think, shows an element of shame on your part. You need to decide to divorce or join her and go all in. Your reaction to her actions is what will define you. You need to be the person who you admire would do in the same situation as you are in.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

BirdistheWord said:


> My wife and I are friends. We do things together. I just don't know how to get back intimacy, trust, respect and all the other little things that have been a casualty of cheating. It may not be possible. I do think it would be easier for me to just start over with another person. I will never get remarried though.


What do you specifically want your wife to do? How can she earn back your trust?

If you cannot answer that, there is little hope for your marriage because she would have NO way to get there if you do not know where "there" is.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I sort of think that the marriage ended when your wife showed she was capable of cheating still when she kiss the her co worker. 

I believe that is why it is bothering you so bad. She has proven she can not be trusted ever again.

You need to step back and really think if the family is going to be better with your marriage as broken as it is now. Do you want your kids thinking it alright to be in this situation with there SO one day? I understand staying for the kids, but they are grown now. I would talk with them about what has gone on and let them know you have done everything to get past this but your wife's kissing her co worker was the last straw. Ask them to comment on the situation, they have seen more then you thing and will support you in what you need do.

My DD is 19 and when we went on our father daughter date about a month ago she brought up the problems between my wife and I. We talked for about an hour and a half. She knew a lot of what has been going on. The talk brought us a lot closer as well.

You need support from you family to get thru this. Get the support you need.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Aren't your kids adults?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Bird,

I think you realize that the time has come to make a decision. Years and years of "not dealing" with the affair, the overall $hitty treatment, it just isn't healthy for either one of you. You need to commit to making it better or get out. Your W would appear to be 'all in' on the marriage. You've asked us how to go about changing things with you.

If you see something positive in the woman she is now, that she is finally someone you could ultimately be happy with, but just can't get out of your head enough to reset this loop of negativity that you are in, then I think it may be worth one more look.

You've had a bad experience in counseling, so you are understandably reluctant to go that route again. I get it.

I'd like to suggest an intensive marriage encounter with some follow up. It would take about 4 to 6 weeks and I think that at the end of it you would have a good idea of what is possible and whether this M can make it, or not. 

What do you have to lose?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

She degraded the marriage and now you're degrading the marriage. And before anyone jumps on me for equating your behaviors, I'm not doing that. Her cheating is certainly the far worse sin. Your consistently treating her with contempt and being an ******* daily, however, not just degrades the marriage, but sells yourself and your children short. You can't like the person you have become, can you?

So, I think you need to man up and grow up. Be a mature, honorable person. Either get out of the marriage or decide you will work on it honestly, the first step for which is to stop being such an ******* at home. Punishing her endlessly may make you feel good in the short term, but it diminishes your self-worth and self-image. You can't be proud of that behavior, can you?

And I also believe that your EA is part of this degradation. It's not harmless friendship; I suspect that part of your refusal to discontinue the relationship is to overtly poke at your WW. Again, I get the impulse, but it's counterproductive and immature.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Listen to alte Dame. 

You have to make a decision soon man. And then you need to commit to it. If you are going to R you need to stop the sniping and nastiness, you need to drop this female friend for good, and you and your wife need to go to some kind of marriage coaching or get an MC who will hold you both accountable for your bad decisions. 

As for you, if you want to save the marriage, you need to deal with this anger you have allowed to fester. It is well deserved anger, but you never addressed it and now it is a pus-filled open wound that won't scab over. It has maggots and flies crawling all over it. Ever seen one of those? 

Your WW fvcked up bad. You and her were both fvcked over by a hack MC. You rugswept at that time because neither of you had a better option. Now you are a walking grump package making yourself miserable and everyone else around you miserable. Do you want to end up a lonely, miserable old man?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Do you love your wife? If yes, you can make this work. She read all the books, she is remorseful. She loves you. I know you do not want to hear this, but she is hurting too - not just for herself but for the pain she caused you.

If you can, take a weekend off, just by yourself or with a buddy. Go someplace you have not been before or do something you enjoy - fish, boating, golf, beach, etc. No contact with wife expect to text her each day to let her know you are ok and alive. Do some soul searching and make that decision.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

OP, I'm substituting your wife in the below quote to demonstrate an EA.


> So where the hell is the emotional affair? About a year ago I ( spoke to a male coworker that I knew had gone through a mediated divorce. I asked him about the process.....He is a few years younger than me, attractive. We begun a friendship. I do go to lunch with him 2 or 3 times a week, sometimes alone and sometimes in a group. He joined the same gym as me and we occasionally workout at the same time. We have discussed my marital situation. I've tutored his son in algebra a few times. I find I can talk to him about my marital issues, something I can't do with my girl friends. He's helped me figure a few things out and basically been a kind ear. I have not had any physical contact with this man short of a friendly hug.





> I will also admit the concept of an EA seems a bit ridiculous to me.


 Would you want your wife to stop the 'friendship' aka EA? Also, do you usually hug coworkers? 



> I have put her through the wringer the last 2 years. I don't treat her in a very loving way. I do what I want without consulting her, made her go to consults on post nups, I've called her names, thrown her out of the house, and demeaned her sexually. I've been an ******* and she's bought book after book, gone to therapy, openly discussed issues, apologized hundreds of times, and done a bunch of self introspection. She cheated and now I'm the ******* in the marriage.


While she put you through the wringer with the A (I can't recall the details), what you have described above sounds like abuse. What an ordeal for her 2 years. I'm amazed she's still with you. If I've ever seen a 100% remorseful WS on TAM, it's your WS. 



> I honestly don't know how to proceed from here. I don't want to stay in a damaged marriage and I don't want to break up my family. It's easy to say divorce the damn woman already but the reality of kids, future grandkids, retirement, 401ks, pets, properties, your home, inlaws, and a whole bunch of other things make the decision very difficult to make. I also know I will never get remarried if I divorce.


Don't stay for the sake of all the inconvenience. You didn't use the word 'love' above and referred to her as the 'damn woman'. 



> So, besides stop acting like an *******, how do I go about fixing my marriage?


Start treating your WS like a human being. She has endured your behaviour for 2 yrs & is 200% remorseful. She is also the mother of your children. Do they know how you treat her? 
R takes a long time. She has made a lot of progress but I don't see much from you. 
You may be a BS who simply can't forgive. Many are. I'm one. 
If you do not love her, leave her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I couldn't forgive either. I had to D. 

Bird if you tried to forgive but can't then you need to put the marriage out of its misery and give your wife an equitable and fair divorce. It is what it is man. She tried and you tried but in the end maybe it is just not enough for you. 

Again, the last post you made, I don't get a sense that you have any love left for your wife. I get a sense you no longer have any romantic feelings or sexual attraction anymore either. 

It's not fair to keep stringing her along and punishing her for her bad behavior twenty years ago. You said yourself that she has worked hard to change and mature. It is not fair to yourself to keep yourself in this netherworld, biding your time until senility or death takes you. Is that how you want to live out your life? I guarantee you pal, if you keep heading down this road you will end up just like one of those mean old guys that you knew growing up, who nobody liked and whos kids and grandkids couldn't stand being around because they were so bitter and self-absorbed.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

Dang, you guys don't pull any punches! I will dial the friendship way back. No more one on one stuff for sure. I see that it's not helping my situation. What I'm doing is wrong. I'll completely end it if necessary. 

The kids are grown. They do not know how I treat her. I am not proud, in fact I'm ashamed of how I'm treating her. Truly. They are not aware of this situation either. It is passed time to make a decision. I need to be all in or just divorce her. It's not an easy thing. Maybe I need therapy myself. I do love her but it is different now. I don't want to the be the old guy yelling at kids to stay off of my lawn. 

I think I will take this weekend to figure some things out. I just don't appear to have some of the tools in my toolbox to fix this mess. I really don't know how to restore trust or fix any of the other issues. I read the "What's the Worst Thing about Infidelity" thread and it's like I've been kicked in the gut. I have a few of those "worsts" too. Are there similar threads about fixing things?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

If you have gone so far as to figure out that you don't have the tools then you really need to get some 3rd party help. 

It sucks that you had such a crappy MC the last go round. Not all counselors are the same.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Sorry you are here my friend.

You are having a lot of problems and I wish I can help you someway. You never healed from her cheating 17 years ago. You have some anger issues. Then your wife "kiss" another man and she still works with him. Big Red Flag. She never told you about it and she comes clean only when you find about it. You dont kiss other man/woman just like that and after 20 plus years of Marriage. 

You are having Emotional Affair. Sharing details from your life with another person is really bad. You should have talked with your wife or a therapist. That is the only way you can get better,trust me. 

Also you threat you wife really bad. Dont do that my friend. If you hate her or dont want to stay married to her then go for Divorce.

I belive some MC sessions could really help you,both of you. Talk about your Marriage and where you see each other in another 20 years. She needs to change her job,because that man is working with her (maybe I got that wrong,not sure).

Stay strong.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BirdistheWord said:


> I think I will take this weekend to figure some things out. I just don't appear to have some of the tools in my toolbox to fix this mess. I really don't know how to restore trust or fix any of the other issues.


Developing the tools that you need can be a long road, but is a necessary part of the process if you want to stay in your marriage. If you are committed to rebuilding trust and fixing the other issues, then a good place to start is with forgiveness. We don't forgive others for their sake, although it will help bring your wife a sense of hope. We forgive because not forgiving hurts us and keeps us from moving forward in our lives. Learning how to forgive your wife would seem to be a good first step while you figure out the rest. If you decide not to stay in your marriage, then it will help you move on.

The next step (IMHO) is asking your wife to go through this journey with you. Tell her that you forgive her, but ask her to understand that forgiveness is a process. It takes a commitment from both of you that takes time and energy.

Good luck


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Two thoughts. While in every way but your reaction to the concept of an EA is the same as @invisibleman wife. Check out his thread "is she cheating" to see what denial of an EA can rip someone apart. Then ask yourself am I the type of person to let someone stew like this. 

If you are somewhat like me at times you wonder "what the hell does emtionaly open me" !!! The last paragraph on your last post would be considered very open if sl modify if sent to her. 

"I think I will take this weekend to figure some things out. I just don't appear to have some of the tools in my toolbox to fix this mess. I really don't know how to restore trust or fix any of the other issues. I have read stories about the "What's the Worst Thing about Infidelity" and it's like I've been kicked in the gut. I have a few of those "worsts" too. I am at times question my comments and behavior towards you. Frankly while my pain and trust issues are justified, my reaction to them at times is not justifiable. Our MC from 17 years ago failed us badly. Our wounds did not heal. Will you try again."

That should get you the Boy Scout merit badge for being open and vulnerable.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

BirdIsTheWord,

Did you expose the OM, never too late, confront or beat him up? Was he your WWs boss?

Tamat


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

BirdistheWord said:


> I think I will take this weekend to figure some things out. I just don't appear to have some of the tools in my toolbox to fix this mess. I really don't know how to restore trust or fix any of the other issues.


You don't need to find the solution this weekend. Nor will you. You just need to decide if you WANT to WORK TOWARDS finding a solution or do you want to move on. 

BTW, EAs are real. Trust me.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

BirdistheWord said:


> I do believe the kiss story. I also spoke to the poly examiner. He was beyond professional on the phone. I got a very professional report too. Professional website, credentials, etc. I don't think he would risk his reputation to cover for a cheating woman.
> 
> I did not intentionally hide the fact she was a woman. It really never came up. I do text her occasionally, but not excessively.
> 
> I will admit, it's hard to just end this friendship because it makes my wife uneasy.


Polys are not reliable at all. The only value of a poly is the willingness to take one, not the actual result. There are several ways to beat one. She can also lie by omission. 

2-3 second kiss being a catalyst to a change somehow seems a but odd.


What were her poly questions ?


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

Tamat, my wife ended the affair and I found out a month or so later from his wife. No confrontation or anything. My wife had already quit and found another job before I found out. The douche bought my wife a ring and offered to marry her. Ugh. I made my wife sit and tell her tale to the other spouse. Talk about awkward. He got a domestic violence charge, screwed in the divorce, and lost his job. Karma sometimes works.


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

In your sixth year of marriage, your wife had an affair. Instead of kicking her out, you invested another 17 years with her. Might as well go all the way and finish this journey with her, given that she has changed and is working to be a better wife.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

ABHale said:


> The problem your wife is there is no trust. She knows what she is capable of and thinks the same of you.


This is the KEY thing here. We always assume others are capable of doing what we know ourselves to be capable of. Your wife knows she could have an affair, therefore she thinks everybody could do it, therefore she's worried that YOU are.

As long as your wife thinks it's an emotional affair, it's going to be in the way of reconciling your marriage.

So yes, whether or not it's 'objectively' an EA, you have to choose between your friendship with this woman and your marriage to your wife.

Personally, if my wife demanded that I drop what I considered a valuable platonic friendship just because my wife was a cheater and didn't trust me? Divorce. Without trust on both sides, there is no marriage. You don't have trust on EITHER side.

And for further thought:

Signs of an emotional affair:

When something interesting happens, is your first thought to tell your wife or your friend about it?
Do you value your friend's opinion more than your wife's?
Do you share more intimate thoughts with your friend than you do with your wife? Not just about the marriage, but about your unrelated fears and hopes and dreams.
Do you catch yourself wondering what might be possible with your friend, if your wife suddenly left or died?
Do you make excuses to touch your friend? Removing lint or loose hair on her clothing, touching her hand when you take something from her, etc?
Do you lie to your wife, overtly or by omission, about how often you meet with your friend, what you do with her and what you discuss?
Do you have 'dreams' about your friend? You know the ones.
Do you find your friend more fun to be with, easier to talk to, does time fly by, etc?
If you received free tickets to a special event, who would you want to take to it? Would you have to think about it?
Do you look forward to lunch days with your friend more than you look forward to a date with your wife?
Do you fabricate reasons to be with your friend more often than your schedules naturally permit?
Does your friend seem more invested in advising you to divorce than she does helping you reconcile?
Has your friend ever hinted, or been blatant, about wanting more from you than a platonic relationship?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

becareful said:


> In your sixth year of marriage, your wife had an affair. Instead of kicking her out, you invested another 17 years with her. Might as well go all the way and finish this journey with her, given that she has changed and is working to be a better wife.


FWIW, this might be a case of "too little, too late".

Hell, it's not like she jumped headfirst into an actual, meaningful reconciliation upon discovery of the affair. After all, there's more to reconciliation that just sticking around.

And you know what sticks out the most to me in the pic that you posted?

The word "we".

As in _more than one person_ doing the work.

OP's FWW spent a lot of years not doing any of that work. In fact, she seems to have spent much of that time doing the exact opposite of working to repair the damage wrought by her affair.

And now -- after all these years -- it's supposed to mean something that she's suddenly remorseful and wants to repair things?

Not sure I could buy into that either.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I would take a step back if I were you.

23 years and she wants to start acting like a wife and mom?

you need to look at this objectively.

A feeling of love is not even close to enough to sustain a marriage.

The act of love is necessary.

Your wife is a damn mess and doesn't look like a good prospect from an outside point of view. At least mine.

Get some distance and clarity.

Your friend really isn't the issue.

The "brainiac" you're married to is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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