# Gave Husband a HallPass, Now Regretting it



## njbutterfly

Hi all, I'm new to these forums but I've been reading a lot and and I'm desperately looking for some help from you kind folks. Here goes, sorry if this turns out LONG. Sorry if there might be some TMI.
Here's the backstory in a nutshell.
Been married for 25 years. I'm 43, he's 45. 
18 years ago, I had a brief fling with someone I worked with. But first I tried to talk to husband who was acting unresponsive, not affectionate, distant, etc. I told him what I needed from him, but no change. Not that that's any excuse. I realize that. And I was 100% wrong and made a terrible choice. Not to make any excuses for it. But it felt good to be wanted for a change and it was just sex, not an emotional connection. 

Anyway, husband found out soon after it began, and I ended it right away. Never contacted or saw the OM again. Husband proceeded to make me "pay" for that for many years, throwing it back in my face constantly even while telling me I'm forgiven. Some days were better, some worse, but I stuck it out. We stayed together, had more kids together. I love him, it was a bad choice I made. He said he forgave me.
We didn't want to split up. 

I had told him during one of the rough times that if he has an opportunity to have a fling I would allow it (like a hall pass) so he wouldn't feel like I one upped him in the marriage, to even out the playing field. He never took me up on it. We are sexually adventurous (to some degree). Trying to spice up the marriage over the years we've tried some fun things. We have had a few threesomes and also tried our hand a little at swinging. We always were together in the same room and we enjoy seeing our partner have fun and enjoy themselves. This was all fine, neither of us had any issues with it at all. And it was a rare thing, couple times a year max. We loved how we re-connected afterwards, it charged us up for a long time after. 

One day recently my husband was at work and called me to give me a heads up and "ask" me if it would be ok for him to try to ask this girl out who seemed interested in him (He doesn't work with her but met her at his job). She's 27 and for some reason she kept telling him he should take her to dinner. So I'm thinking really what are the odds that this 27 yr old will actually find my 'rough around the edges' 45 year old (looks older than his age) husband attractive. Not that he isn't attractive TO ME. HE IS. But I guess I didn't realize that he might be to someone else!) So I agreed and said ok, if he can get her, he can have a hall pass. But just for sex. Not for a long term girlfriend situation. He just wanted the thrill of the chase, to feel young and attractive again. Midlife crisis stuff. 

I told him I must have full disclosure, no secrets or lies, if this happens. But she goes out with him, more than once, and he kept trying to get her to bed, but he's rusty and it takes him a while to accomplish this apparently. She knows he's married and he told her he wasn't leaving me EVER. She was never lied to or misled in any way. Anyways it finally happened, he managed to sleep with her after some near misses and blow outs with her (she runs hot and cold and is very hot tempered and thrives on drama!). This chase has been going on for 6 weeks now, he only slept with her 3 times. But he spends a lot of time and money wining her and dining her and taking her out to clubs and dancing. He has started to neglect me and my feelings. He tells me he loves me and will never leave me, but this is becoming too entangled for my taste. I want him to end it but he has started to feel something for her, it's turned into an emotional affair. I feel awful because I told him he can see her but every time afterwards I got jealous and clingy if he spent too much time with her. This annoyed him a lot. 

He says if I trust him to do this, why do I get crazy after and try to pull in the leash? I said it's because it feels like he wants to be with her more than he wants to be with me. He says that's because she's like a new toy, he says he's infatuated, there's something about her. Obviously I'm upset. He's started disregarding my needs and feelings and has started to put her first. I told him NO WAY will I accept this arrangement and he has to END IT. He said doesn't want to end it yet he needs to process his feelings. I told him on Saturday that if he needs to I will pull back for my sanity since I'm getting all twisted up in knots from this whole thing. 

On Saturday night I started doing a bit of the 180. I told him if he wants to, he can go to her whenever he wants, he can be single. I said I will let him process his feelings. I told him whenever he sees her needs to find something that annoys him about her and to tell me about it so he can see that she's not perfect, this is a fantasy world right now. He has agreed with me now that it's become an Emotional affair (even though I know about it and agreed to it, it's now an affair and he is cheating). But he can't (won't) stop himself yet. He says he thinks it will run its course, he doesn't see a future with her, etc. But still he won't stop it. YET. 

SO we're still talking, but I've pulled back. Now I'm trying to let him see that I can survive without him. I'm not texting or calling or acting desperate like I was behaving for a couple of weeks. It's an emotional roller coaster.

Some of you are now thinking I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. And I agree to some extent, but please don't judge. I truly need some good advice. I love this man and we've been through rough times but he has an addictive personality and this makes it hard to disentangle himself from what feels good. He's like a kid in a candy store. I think we can get through this since when he is away from her he starts to have some logical thoughts about the whole thing but once he starts thinking about her or is with her, he becomes like an infatuated teenager again.

He still tells me that he loves me. I'm not sure how to reply to him now, since the 180 rule says never to tell him you love him. But is it different if he says it first? I'm afraid if I say nothing he will think I don't care about him and may drive him into her waiting arms.  HELP. Thanks!


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## verpin zal

First: Please do not utter any "excuses" if they are not "excuses". We know what an "excuse" is, an in my opinion, no circumstances could excuse "cheating". In my opinion.

Second: Why was divorce not an option when your needs weren't being met by your husband?

Third: " She's 27 and for some reason she kept telling him he should take her to dinner. So I'm thinking really *what are the odds* that this 27 yr old will actually find my 'rough around the edges' 45 year old (*looks older than his age*) husband attractive."

My dear Machiavelli, these two sentences beg your expertise on "if your old lady doesn't think other ladies will find you attractive, you're cooked.". I'll leave the stage to you.


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## Acabado

Friend, if it's arue story you have to put the foot down.
NOW

It's her of the marriage.

And you must be as serious as a heart attack. I mean filing for divorce if he doesn't agree to go NC.

NOW.


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## Nostromo

Adultery, hallpasses, swinging, threesomes = Pandora's box. Get into counseling even if he refuses get some counseling for yourself.


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## HarryDoyle

It still amazes me when a couple tries swinging, threesomes and issuing hall passes (whatever the hell that's suppose to be) and then have problems with infidelity. AND are somehow surprised by it.:scratchhead::scratchhead: The first thing I'd do is look up the word "monogamy"; start there and work your way backwards, because the funny thing is, without monogamy there is no cheating. You need to pick one type of relationship, if that's still possible, which I doubt, and stick with it. Just saying.

Sidenote: I just asked my WW if I could have a hall pass to make us "even". I can't repeat her answer here, but you can guess. It was worth a try I guess.


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## cool12

is there any chance you could edit your post into paragraphs with space between them? i'd really love to read it but honestly, the lack of spaces makes me eyes and my head spin.

plz don't feel obligated to do it, just a suggestion.


and no, i'm not old! lol


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## njbutterfly

There, that does look a little better now with more spaces.


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## cool12

njbutterfly said:


> There, that does look a little better now with more spaces.


thank you so much.
i sincerely didn't want to sound b#tchy, but don't want to go cross-eyed either 

off to read.


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## thummper

I'm really disappointed that he did that. Revenge affairs solve nothing, and seem to make the whole situation worse. I hope you two can work this out, but from what you've said, he seems to be VERY taken with this young lady. Mmmmmm. NOT GOOD!


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## njbutterfly

verpin zal said:


> First: Please do not utter any "excuses" if they are not "excuses". We know what an "excuse" is, an in my opinion, no circumstances could excuse "cheating". In my opinion.
> 
> Second: Why was divorce not an option when your needs weren't being met by your husband?
> 
> Third: " She's 27 and for some reason she kept telling him he should take her to dinner. So I'm thinking really *what are the odds* that this 27 yr old will actually find my 'rough around the edges' 45 year old (*looks older than his age*) husband attractive."
> 
> My dear Machiavelli, these two sentences beg your expertise on "if your old lady doesn't think other ladies will find you attractive, you're cooked.". I'll leave the stage to you.


Monogamy isn't for everyone. I (and many others) can separate love from sex. We didn't consider anything that we did together as cheating. It's not for everyone, but don't judge on that basis alone. I'm ok with the sex. It's the emotional part of the whole thing that's twisting me into knots. He's just gaga over her because of her youth and energy and the fact that someone so young and attractive wants him. As opposed to me who is not new anymore. And he says she makes him feel like a man. Well if she had to deal with all his bs all the time, no doubt she will not keep him around long. He is not an easy man to deal with. But he acts differently with her because she is the nice one because they're in a fantasy world but I am the wicked witch dragging him back to reality. But I love the lug. And don't want a divorce. So will the 180 work?


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## EI

HarryDoyle said:


> It still amazes me when a couple tries swinging, threesomes and issuing hall passes (whatever the hell that's suppose to be) and then have problems with infidelity. AND are somehow surprised by it.:scratchhead::scratchhead: The first thing I'd do is look up the word "monogamy"; start there and work your way backwards, because the funny thing is, without monogamy there is no cheating. You need to pick one type of relationship, if that's still possible, which I doubt, and stick with it. Just saying.
> 
> Sidenote: I just asked my WW if I could have a hall pass to make us "even". I can't repeat her answer here, but you can guess. It was worth a try I guess.


B1 never asked. If he had, he would have gotten the same answer I suspect you received from Mrs. HarryDoyle!  Whether it seems hypocritical or not, I'd have to question the logic of any WS, who is in Reconciliation, who would even make the offer. The OP's post is a perfect example of why this is a very bad idea.


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## njbutterfly

njbutterfly said:


> Monogamy isn't for everyone. I (and many others) can separate love from sex. We didn't consider anything that we did together as cheating. It's not for everyone, but don't judge on that basis alone. I'm ok with the sex. It's the emotional part of the whole thing that's twisting me into knots. He's just gaga over her because of her youth and energy and the fact that someone so young and attractive wants him. As opposed to me who is not new anymore. And he says she makes him feel like a man. Well if she had to deal with all his bs all the time, no doubt she will not keep him around long. He is not an easy man to deal with. But he acts differently with her because she is the nice one because they're in a fantasy world but I am the wicked witch dragging him back to reality. But I love the lug. And don't want a divorce. So will the 180 work?


On my kindle and I think I accidentally quoted and replied to the wrong post.


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## njbutterfly

The cheating is not the sex in this case. The cheating is the emotional aspect. He says "it's like she put a spell on me".


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## HarryDoyle

njbutterfly said:


> Monogamy isn't for everyone. I (and many others) can separate love from sex.


Well apparently he can't. My WW said the samething, it was "just sex" nothing personal. Riiiiiiiiiight. I have never met anyone who tried swinging or threesomes that didn't end bad eventually one way or another. 

Sidenote 2: My wife does not think it would be "just sex" if I did it. I was joking when I asked her for a hall pass and she knew it. But she wasn't joking when she answered me. Funny how things change when the situation is reversed.


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## njbutterfly

HarryDoyle said:


> Well apparently he can't. My WW said the samething, it was "just sex" nothing personal. Riiiiiiiiiight. I have never met anyone who tried swinging or threesomes that didn't end bad eventually one way or another.
> 
> Sidenote 2: My wife does not think it would be "just sex" if I did it. I was joking when I asked her for a hall pass and she knew it. But she wasn't joking when she answered me. Funny how things change when the situation is reversed.


It's not for everyone. But sometimes it is "just sex". This is pure raging hormones. I joked with him that he needs to remember which head to think with. Unfortunately there's only enough blood flow to run one at a time. :/


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## manticore

I would say in this case, file for divorce.

I am not telling you to proceed with it, but show him how his demeanor is pushing you to that extreme.

probably any other method will be useless, even if you try 180, he right now feels entitled for your affair and also because you granted him permission. I don't think he feels that there will be any kind of consequences, so he will take 180 as something temporaly and fixable (as he feels he have the right and the permission to do what he is doing).

so you really need something extreme to give him a new perspective.


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## njbutterfly

manticore said:


> I would say in this case, file for divorce.
> 
> I am not telling you to proceed with it, but show him how his demeanor is pushing you to that extreme.
> 
> probably any other method will be useless, even if you try 180, he right now feels entitled for your affair and also because you granted him permission. I don't think he feels that there will be any kind of consequences, so he will take 180 as something temporaly and fixable (as he feels he have the right and the permission to do what he is doing).
> 
> so you really need something extreme to give him a new perspective.


You make a valid point but divorce is too extreme. He forgave me 18 years ago. Who am I to put him out for something similar? That's not right in my opinion, I'm not a hypocrite. And I am the forgiving sort. I know it just has to run its course but wondering how the 180 not saying I love you rule would help or hurt in this situation. I want to give him the space to process his thoughts and feelings but don't want to give him so much space that he would think I no longer care. Just want to find the right amount of space. If that makes any sense.


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## Will_Kane

Do you know how many 45-year-old guys I know of who turned in their 45-year-old wives for a younger model? Well, I don't know either, but it's a lot. 

I'm guessing she wants to replace you, she doesn't really think an "old-looking rough-around-the-edges" 45-year-old guy is all that hot. Either that or she has daddy issues and he reminds her of her daddy. Either way, not good for you.

If I were you, I'd put the ultimatum to him now. In my opinion, the longer you wait, the tougher it's going to be to end this thing.

Tell him, "I love you, but I'm not putting up with this for another day. End this damn thing or I file." And then do it.


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## Will_Kane

njbutterfly said:


> I want to give him the space to process his thoughts.


Yeah, I know of some guys who spent years - literally years - "processing" their thoughts.


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## Maricha75

There is nothing that says you have to let it continue. NOTHING. The whole swinging, threesomes, etc is not something I could ever stomach for my marriage, but to each his/her own. The thing is, you said some people can separate sex and love. Your husband cannot. Infatuation is a form of love. Granted, it's basic, and not based in reality, but it is love. It's part of that emotional connection you mentioned that he has with her. Tell him that's it, no more. And that if it continues, you will file for divorce. As others have stated, you don't have to follow through on the actual divorce, but still, he needs to see you are serious. 

If he tries to throw your affair from 18 years ago back in your face, again... point out that the field has been leveled now that he has acted on that "hallpass" (another thing I would never do, nor allow). Tell him to end the affair or the marriage is over. Those are his choices.


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## Maricha75

njbutterfly said:


> You make a valid point but divorce is too extreme. He forgave me 18 years ago. Who am I to put him out for something similar? That's not right in my opinion, I'm not a hypocrite. And I am the forgiving sort. *I know it just has to run its course* but wondering how the 180 not saying I love you rule would help or hurt in this situation. I want to give him the space to process his thoughts and feelings but don't want to give him so much space that he would think I no longer care. Just want to find the right amount of space. If that makes any sense.


Meanwhile, 20 years later.... he's still getting it on with the younger woman, and you are waiting for it to "run its course" and for him to "process his feelings"....

No, it doesn't make you a hypocrite for telling him to end his affair. You ended yours as well. The hypocrisy would be in continuing the affair.


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## paul72

Well if you want an open marriage..... this is what it is....... a roller coaster of emotions...... and he seems to be following the guidelines you set out......

Heres what going to happen..... assuming this girl wants him..... she will bang his brains out and give him the ride of the century.... he will feel young and strong again.... you'll seem him dress a little nicer, maybe try to buy a flashier car, he will "attempt" to fall in love with this girl..... if only on a part time basis..... He wont be "falling" in love with her..... he will just be in love with the fact that he feels young again.....

When you had an "affair" you did it because you where missing something..... hes a middle age man.... hes thinking he'll never be able to do this again..... so why not not.... hes trying to recapture something... ie hes doing it for the same "reason" you did it..... ANd since he is being open about it... I think this is possibly a legit carnival ride for him... and once the ride is over he might be more than willing to smile and go back home to you  

A lot of this is on you....... and to be honest a lot of this is on HIM ...... I cant believe he is holding this card over you for this long...... if he was gonna do the hall pass it should have been the same year you messed around.... ie a revenge F.....

If your willing to have some competition for a while and you think you can handle it... hey its your choice....... plenty of men and woman have affairs that are never discovered and they marriages work out just fine.... others don't.....

btw... there are a reasonable number of young ladies who actually like older guys.... no clue why.... but they do.... trust me they do


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## paul72

Well if you want an open marriage..... this is what it is....... a roller coaster of emotions...... and he seems to be following the guidelines you set out......

Heres what going to happen..... assuming this girl wants him..... she will bang his brains out and give him the ride of the century.... he will feel young and strong again.... you'll seem him dress a little nicer, maybe try to buy a flashier car, he will "attempt" to fall in love with this girl..... if only on a part time basis..... He wont be "falling" in love with her..... he will just be in love with the fact that he feels young again.....

When you had an "affair" you did it because you where missing something..... hes a middle age man.... hes thinking he'll never be able to do this again..... so why not not.... hes trying to recapture something... ie hes doing it for the same "reason" you did it..... ANd since he is being open about it... I think this is possibly a legit carnival ride for him... and once the ride is over he might be more than willing to smile and go back home to you  

A lot of this is on you....... and to be honest a lot of this is on HIM ...... I cant believe he is holding this card over you for this long...... if he was gonna do the hall pass it should have been the same year you messed around.... ie a revenge F.....

If your willing to have some competition for a while and you think you can handle it... hey its your choice....... plenty of men and woman have affairs that are never discovered and they marriages work out just fine.... others don't.....

btw... there are a reasonable number of young ladies who actually like older guys.... no clue why.... but they do.... trust me they do


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## njbutterfly

Will_Kane said:


> Do you know how many 45-year-old guys I know of who turned in their 45-year-old wives for a younger model? Well, I don't know either, but it's a lot.
> 
> I'm guessing she wants to replace you, she doesn't really think an "old-looking rough-around-the-edges" 45-year-old guy is all that hot. Either that or she has daddy issues and he reminds her of her daddy. Either way, not good for you.
> 
> If I were you, I'd put the ultimatum to him now. In my opinion, the longer you wait, the tougher it's going to be to end this thing.
> 
> Tell him, "I love you, but I'm not putting up with this for another day. End this damn thing or I file." And then do it.


Problem with him is that ultimatums never worked with him. Not once in 25 years. They just makes him so angry he does the opposite. Childish and extreme. But that's his personality. With him there has to be a "gentle" diffusing of the situation. If I want to save the marriage, I need to think outside the box.


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## cool12

njbutterfly said:


> The cheating is not the sex in this case. The cheating is the emotional aspect. He says "it's like she put a spell on me".


i wouldn't like that either and would suggest he break the spell asap or i'd break it for him by asking him to leave.

your fling 18 yrs ago doesn't give him license to flaunt this fling in your face. if it's really bothering you, tell him. if he doesn't respect your feelings enough to end it NOW, move on. 

i wouldn't be with someone who continued to hurt me like that.


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## xakulax

The odds are this 27 year old is taking thing slow to rope your husband in more and more tell he won't care what you say or do about it. Think about it your doing the 180 and he for the most part does not care.

*If you don't put an end to this now you will find yourself in the Life After Divorce section of this forum. *


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## njbutterfly

Very valid points, all of you. I guess I am willing to let the "processing" go on for a short while. Definitely not years. I think a couple of weeks is more than fair and at that point see where he stands. He knows this isn't a forever thing. But I don't want to push him further away. At least not yet. If he's still digging in his heels like a stubborn mule after 2 more weeks of this I will likely have to do something more extreme after a long heart to heart.


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## njbutterfly

xakulax said:


> The odds are this 27 year old is taking thing slow to rope your husband in more and more tell he won't care what you say or do about it. Think about it your doing the 180 and he for the most part does not care.
> 
> *If you don't put an end to this now you will find yourself in the Life After Divorce section of this forum. *


I just started the 180. Pulled back a little on Saturday night, spent some time talking with him on Sunday. And haven't seen him yet since, I just stopped texting/calling him as of last night. He works long hours (due to the business he's in) and so far he hasn't really had a chance to see the 180 in action. Supposed to see him tonight. Now is the true test for me. It's hard, I'm not good at pretending I don't care.


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## cool12

why does he get a couple more weeks of hurting you?


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## njbutterfly

cool12 said:


> why does he get a couple more weeks of hurting you?


Good question, Cool12. It's not that I want to give him a couple more weeks to hurt me. It's a matter of diffusing the situation gently. "Bull in a china shop" never worked on him. It has to be his idea to want to come back to me. Won't work any other way. Otherwise, what's the point? Sigh... 
But yeah, this is a tough one.


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## xakulax

njbutterfly said:


> I just started the 180. Pulled back a little on Saturday night, spent some time talking with him on Sunday. And haven't seen him yet since, I just stopped texting/calling him as of last night. He works long hours (due to the business he's in) and so far he hasn't really had a chance to see the 180 in action. Supposed to see him tonight. Now is the true test for me. It's hard, *I'm not good at pretending I don't care*.



Ok try this 

Don't contact him, and don't answer if he contacts you


Cut him off social media ties

Don't ignore him if you bump into him. Be friendly, but keep it brief, as though he's someone you don't know that well

Make him work for your attention if he wants it. 

Do the things that you want to do and keep yourself busy


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## cool12

njbutterfly said:


> Good question, Cool12. It's not that I want to give him a couple more weeks to hurt me. It's a matter of diffusing the situation gently. "Bull in a china shop" never worked on him. It has to be his idea to want to come back to me. Won't work any other way. Otherwise, what's the point? Sigh...
> But yeah, this is a tough one.


it is tough.
i like the idea of no contact with him as long as she's in the picture. def no sex!


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## harrybrown

You have more patience than I do. 

I am sorry you are going thru this. When the time is right, be sure and tell your H that he is lucky to have you.

Even with cheating, my wife would not stand for this situation. 

Does the 27 year-old OW have a boyfriend or an H?

It could be time to find out and let them know if possible about the affair.

I do think she is not in it for the long-term. Is there a way to somehow cut back on the funds available for the affair? 

Does you H know how badly this is going to end? Maybe you could introduce the OW to someone her age.


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## xakulax

cool12 said:


> it is tough.
> i like the idea of no contact with him as long as she's in the picture. *def no sex!*




Wait won't the lack of sex from his wife drive him more to young 27 year old


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## cool12

xakulax said:


> [/B]
> 
> Wait won't the lack of sex from his wife drive him more to young 27 year old


i wouldn't care.


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## xakulax

cool12 said:


> i wouldn't care.


ahh well played


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## cool12

harrybrown said:


> Does you H know how badly this is going to end?


good question.
what exactly is his idea of how this A will end? does he expect to fvck her until he's over it and then move along with you like it never happened?


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## njbutterfly

harrybrown said:


> You have more patience than I do.
> 
> I am sorry you are going thru this. When the time is right, be sure and tell your H that he is lucky to have you.
> 
> Even with cheating, my wife would not stand for this situation.
> 
> Does the 27 year-old OW have a boyfriend or an H?
> 
> It could be time to find out and let them know if possible about the affair.
> 
> I do think she is not in it for the long-term. Is there a way to somehow cut back on the funds available for the affair?
> 
> Does you H know how badly this is going to end? Maybe you could introduce the OW to someone her age.


lol, the thing is he already tells everyone what a "gem" and how no one else would put up with the likes of him. :/ 
27 yr old is divorced, no boyfriend. So no one to tell. And she seems to have LOTS of spare time on her hands.  Whereas I have to work full time and take car of the family the rest of the time. Husband works 45 minutes away and she lives close to his job. Perfect opportunity to show up in front of him constantly. And it's a good job, I wouldn't want him to have to leave it. 
I may have to do something about the funds. But he can always borrow some $$ if he really wanted to. That's why it has to be his idea to end it. There's always a workaround to everything, if he wanted to find a way. Don't know anyone close to that age and single to introduce her to. Balls.


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## njbutterfly

cool12 said:


> good question.
> what exactly is his idea of how this A will end? does he expect to fvck her until he's over it and then move along with you like it never happened?


He never lied to her, it was all just for fun, that was always the idea from day 1. 
However, not so fun anymore (for me). He loves to go out and I'm more of a homebody. So I was kind of thinking maybe she would wear him out and he'd come home in pieces. But so far I think he's gonna wear HER out!


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## xakulax

Are you shore he really wont to sleep with this girl I mean if all there doing is going out clubbing at this point i haft start wondering if he is doing this just to get back at you knowing full well his not planing on sleeping with her.


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## John Lee

Sorry, but all this 180 stuff is just BAFFLING when applied to this thread. It's like that thing about when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail -- well every thread on TAM is "180 this, no more mr. nice guy that" without looking at the context.

What's the point of the 180 if you (1) have told him you're ok with him having this affair and (2) YOU HAVE NOT MADE IT CLEAR THAT YOU'RE NOT OK WITH IT ANYMORE. Doing a 180 under these circumstances sounds passive aggressive and crazy. The obvious answer is tell him to stop seeing this woman, that you're not ok with it anymore, that it hurts you. Maybe he'd actually appreciate on some level feeling like you even give a crap about him, which I worry that maybe you don't, given your comments that you're surprised a young woman would even want him.

And cut out the open marriage crap, or at least only do it when you're in the same room.


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## confusedFather

You say monogamy isn't for everyone; have affairs, threesomes, swing, and hall passes and wonder why he has feelings for her.

Your right; monogamy isn't for everyone. But it should be for those in committed relationships. You were playing with fire and got burned. Are you really surprised that your husband has spent a lot of emotional energy chasing this girl get her to bed a few times, keeps on the chase and now has feeling for her? Sex is supposed to create feelings and bonding.

My wife said I could have a couple affairs on Dday. I don't think she meant it; she was just desperate to give me something. I never even considered it. I wanted to save my marriage not ensure it's destruction.

That scraping sound you hear is me pushing the soap box back under the table. The only advise I have is tell him this has become an affair and you are now treating it as such. He must go NC with her or you are filing for divorce. Be strong and decisive to ensure he knows you mean business. Find a MC with experience dealing with not just affairs but couple you treat sex so cavalierly.


----------



## Affaircare

njbutterfly, 

I hope you understand that your views and approach to marriage are not what the folks here typically encounter, and thus many of the responses are going to be responses to the more standard definitions of monogamy and fidelity. However, I do see that your definition is slightly different that "the norm" and I will tailor my suggestions to fit your specifically.

So first, let me just say that from what I read here, I see you are pretty okay with threesomes and some light swinging--which by definition means inviting another person or people into your sex life. It sounds to me, based on your writing, that the defining line for you is that it's okay to have others just for sexual spice...but it's not okay to have others for emotional connection or mental relation. Is that roughly correct? 

And the situation currently is that in the past you had an affair--and due to that affair, at some point you mentioned to your spouse that if he wanted to do the same thing, you'd basically give him a "hall pass" and consider things "even" in the marriage. However, now he has met a 27 year old through work, he asked you if it was okay to go to dinner with her and flirt around, and you agreed as long as he was honest about it and it was only for sex. It took him 6 months of "wining and dining" and drama to finally sleep with her, and now he has feelings for her and effectively won't give her up. 

First, I'd say "GOOD FOR YOU" that you spoke right up on Saturday! I'm proud of you for being open with him and telling him you were not okay with where this is going. I'm also proud of you for being open-minded enough to realize that his view may be different from yours and you are willing to listen to him and consider what he thinks and feels. This is VERY encouraging. 

Second, I'd say that a large part of the issue here is that in a more "standard" definition of infidelity, the line drawn in the sand is a little easier to see: "Forsaking ALL OTHERS" makes it pretty easy to tell if there's been unfaithfulness. Unfortunately, in your marriage, the definition you were using was more like "Casual sex is okay, but no emotional or mental connection." 

Third, I'd say that if that is the definition that he agreed to, then he has betrayed your trust. The way I see it, if she had been amenable to being his f**kbuddy with no strings--a steady Thursday roll in the hay--you may have been okay with it...but instead he spend at least 6 months wooing her and chasing her and that involves emotion and time and connecting!! Further, it doesn't sound as if it was just "Hey let's enjoy each other physically in ways that include your spouse" but rather it was excluding you more and more. Thus it is reasonable for you to feel as if you've been betrayed, because YOU HAVE BEEN. 

Fourth, I'd say that you are struggling with the whole "hall pass" thing, but you didn't say you gave him a hall pass to have a complete mental, emotional, and physical affair with another human being. You gave him a "hall pass" to enjoy a sexual experience that he would then come back to you and share with you, reconnecting with you even more heartily upon his return! Furthermore, for your affair, when your husband found out, you wrote that you ended it immediately and chose him. You never contacted OM again, and even though it was hard you write that you didn't want to break up. Given the choice to choose, you dropped the OM and chose HIM... Yet here you are and given the need to choose between you (and meeting your needs and considering your feelings) and her...he's choosing HER. See how your "hall pass" was NOT a pass to do what is occurring now?

So here's my advice to you. I would suggest that you take some time to look deep into your own heart and decide what IS and IS NOT okay with you. Clearly, you are willing to give him some freedom and have a very open mind, but equally clearly, he has broken the joint agreement, he has gone beyond what is beneficial to you two as a couple, and he is hurting you and the marriage. Once you have it very clear in your mind what is YOUR issue and what is HIS issue which he is gaslighting you to make you feel like it's yours....then I strongly encourage to you speak up for yourself. 

The long and short of it, for me, is that even in a situation where you agreed to having threesomes and swinging, there were agreed upon "rules" of what was acceptable and what was not. You participated in those activities FOR THE GOOD OF THE MARRIAGE, and each of you did those things to please your spouse and for the benefit of your relationship. CLEARLY this thing he is doing with the 27yo is not to please you and is doing harm, not good, to the marriage. So he doesn't respond to ultimatums? That's cool--don't give him an ultimatum. I'd say "This is not okay with me. The relationship with the 27yo is causing harm to me and to our marriage, and our relationship is primary. You are completely free to make any decision you want, but be aware that based on your choice, I will then need to make decisions of my own...to protect myself and our family against harm if need be." The end. Then let him choose. If he is not willing to give her up and never speak to her again, then he actually IS making a choice--for her! 

After that, you make your own decisions based on the knowledge that his choice is not for the benefit of you and the growth of your marriage. If he is not going to choose you, it is reasonable for you to take action to protect yourself. You don't need to threaten or tell him what you're going to do--just act. He had his chance to make his choice, and he made it! 

THE END.


----------



## barbados

Both of you have, at this point, involved several other people sexually into your marriage, starting with your cheating, then with threesomes and swinging, and now this younger woman and your husband.

I don't see why you are so concerned. You said he could do this. You did it.

I sounds like the only thing you are mad about is that a younger woman finds your H attractive, and that he now gets to have sexual attention from someone else without you invloved.


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## russell28

njbutterfly said:


> Hi all, I'm new to these forums but I've been reading a lot and and I'm desperately looking for some help from you kind folks. Here goes, sorry if this turns out LONG. Sorry if there might be some TMI.
> Here's the backstory in a nutshell.
> Been married for 25 years. I'm 43, he's 45.
> 18 years ago, I had a brief fling with someone I worked with. But first I tried to talk to husband who was acting unresponsive, not affectionate, distant, etc. I told him what I needed from him, but no change. Not that that's any excuse. I realize that. And I was 100% wrong and made a terrible choice. Not to make any excuses for it. But it felt good to be wanted for a change and it was just sex, not an emotional connection.
> 
> Anyway, husband found out soon after it began, and I ended it right away. Never contacted or saw the OM again. Husband proceeded to make me "pay" for that for many years, throwing it back in my face constantly even while telling me I'm forgiven. Some days were better, some worse, but I stuck it out. We stayed together, had more kids together. I love him, it was a bad choice I made. He said he forgave me.
> We didn't want to split up.
> 
> I had told him during one of the rough times that if he has an opportunity to have a fling I would allow it (like a hall pass) so he wouldn't feel like I one upped him in the marriage, to even out the playing field. He never took me up on it. We are sexually adventurous (to some degree). Trying to spice up the marriage over the years we've tried some fun things. We have had a few threesomes and also tried our hand a little at swinging. We always were together in the same room and we enjoy seeing our partner have fun and enjoy themselves. This was all fine, neither of us had any issues with it at all. And it was a rare thing, couple times a year max. We loved how we re-connected afterwards, it charged us up for a long time after.
> 
> One day recently my husband was at work and called me to give me a heads up and "ask" me if it would be ok for him to try to ask this girl out who seemed interested in him (He doesn't work with her but met her at his job). She's 27 and for some reason she kept telling him he should take her to dinner. So I'm thinking really what are the odds that this 27 yr old will actually find my 'rough around the edges' 45 year old (looks older than his age) husband attractive. Not that he isn't attractive TO ME. HE IS. But I guess I didn't realize that he might be to someone else!) So I agreed and said ok, if he can get her, he can have a hall pass. But just for sex. Not for a long term girlfriend situation. He just wanted the thrill of the chase, to feel young and attractive again. Midlife crisis stuff.
> 
> I told him I must have full disclosure, no secrets or lies, if this happens. But she goes out with him, more than once, and he kept trying to get her to bed, but he's rusty and it takes him a while to accomplish this apparently. She knows he's married and he told her he wasn't leaving me EVER. She was never lied to or misled in any way. Anyways it finally happened, he managed to sleep with her after some near misses and blow outs with her (she runs hot and cold and is very hot tempered and thrives on drama!). This chase has been going on for 6 weeks now, he only slept with her 3 times. But he spends a lot of time and money wining her and dining her and taking her out to clubs and dancing. He has started to neglect me and my feelings. He tells me he loves me and will never leave me, but this is becoming too entangled for my taste. I want him to end it but he has started to feel something for her, it's turned into an emotional affair. I feel awful because I told him he can see her but every time afterwards I got jealous and clingy if he spent too much time with her. This annoyed him a lot.
> 
> He says if I trust him to do this, why do I get crazy after and try to pull in the leash? I said it's because it feels like he wants to be with her more than he wants to be with me. He says that's because she's like a new toy, he says he's infatuated, there's something about her. Obviously I'm upset. He's started disregarding my needs and feelings and has started to put her first. I told him NO WAY will I accept this arrangement and he has to END IT. He said doesn't want to end it yet he needs to process his feelings. I told him on Saturday that if he needs to I will pull back for my sanity since I'm getting all twisted up in knots from this whole thing.
> 
> On Saturday night I started doing a bit of the 180. I told him if he wants to, he can go to her whenever he wants, he can be single. I said I will let him process his feelings. I told him whenever he sees her needs to find something that annoys him about her and to tell me about it so he can see that she's not perfect, this is a fantasy world right now. He has agreed with me now that it's become an Emotional affair (even though I know about it and agreed to it, it's now an affair and he is cheating). But he can't (won't) stop himself yet. He says he thinks it will run its course, he doesn't see a future with her, etc. But still he won't stop it. YET.
> 
> SO we're still talking, but I've pulled back. Now I'm trying to let him see that I can survive without him. I'm not texting or calling or acting desperate like I was behaving for a couple of weeks. It's an emotional roller coaster.
> 
> Some of you are now thinking I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. And I agree to some extent, but please don't judge. I truly need some good advice. I love this man and we've been through rough times but he has an addictive personality and this makes it hard to disentangle himself from what feels good. He's like a kid in a candy store. I think we can get through this since when he is away from her he starts to have some logical thoughts about the whole thing but once he starts thinking about her or is with her, he becomes like an infatuated teenager again.
> 
> He still tells me that he loves me. I'm not sure how to reply to him now, since the 180 rule says never to tell him you love him. But is it different if he says it first? I'm afraid if I say nothing he will think I don't care about him and may drive him into her waiting arms.  HELP. Thanks!


He never got over your brief fling.. you blamed him, told him you tried to talk to him (you left out the part about having a boyfriend in work I'm sure).. That was one of your excuses for cheating, that you 'tried', when really it was just a feeble attempt and your focus was really on your affair, not your husband. 

You told him what you needed? You told him you needed to have sex with the guy in work because he was making you feel special with words?

You had an affair, then rug swept it after blame shifting to your husband.. then you gave him permission to get revenge on you, to alleviate your own guilt.. but that backfired, and now he's in an emotional relationship, that he's probably been waiting 18 years to find..

Here's a start, stop calling your affair a 'brief fling', for starters, it was an affair, and you cheated.. and it wasn't your husbands fault, it was your fault you chose to go there.. that's called *minimizing*, and it's not good for the betrayed spouse as you're finding out now.. It pisses them off.


----------



## spanz

well on the surface, it looks fairly normal for an open marriage. He is having fun, but still says he loves you. What you need to do is find another man to occupy your time too. Have good wild sex, and let him know how it went. I am sure your issues will lessen with the fact that you are also benefiting from the situation.

Good luck dear. Like someone said you opened pandoras box, and can not get that lid to close again. So make the most of it. It will all work out in the end. Maybe you both end up with a much stronger and sexier marriage from it all.


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## sinnister

John Lee said:


> Sorry, but all this 180 stuff is just BAFFLING when applied to this thread. It's like that thing about when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail -- well every thread on TAM is "180 this, no more mr. nice guy that" without looking at the context.
> 
> What's the point of the 180 if you (1) have told him you're ok with him having this affair and (2) YOU HAVE NOT MADE IT CLEAR THAT YOU'RE NOT OK WITH IT ANYMORE. Doing a 180 under these circumstances sounds passive aggressive and crazy. The obvious answer is tell him to stop seeing this woman, that you're not ok with it anymore, that it hurts you. Maybe he'd actually appreciate on some level feeling like you even give a crap about him, which I worry that maybe you don't, given your comments that you're surprised a young woman would even want him.
> 
> And cut out the open marriage crap, or at least only do it when you're in the same room.



I've tried to say this numerous times on these forums. The self-help cookie cutter, one size fits all, divorce buster super cure stuff is thrown around here far too often. It's bordering on a religion over here. It's completely not applicable to this situation.

OP - 180's are the opposite of what you need. Throughout your marriage you've already proven that you don't need him to fulfill your needs emotionally or sexually. Now he's giving you a bit of the same. The only way out of this is to state your demands. Not ultimatum. Actual demands. If he doesn't meet them, time for divorce.

Marriage isn't supposed to mean a wife sitting at home crying while her husband is out banging a hot younger woman. That's not marriage, it's self-inflicted torture.


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## chillymorn

this thread reminds me when you play with fire you get burned.


the only way out of it is to commit to eachother and only eachother.

all swinging,swaping and extra circuliar activity must stop and you guys need to start working on your relationship.with that said I think its a tall order and most likley too much to over come.

put your foot down and mean it either you stop or we get divorced.


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## MattMatt

What's wrong with other woman? Well, she's a dirty little home wrecker...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister

MattMatt said:


> What's wrong with other woman? Well, she's a dirty little home wrecker...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. In this case the sheep invited the wolf to dinner.

Who's at fault? Me thinks the sheep.

Mmmmmm Lambchops.


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## bobbieb65

What does a 27 divorced women see in a married middle aged man??? A mature settled man with a steady paycheck who is easily manipulated.

She either expects to walk away with your husband or maybe just child support after she ends up pregnant. Why else would she waste her time with him??? 

Time to file for legal separation and give him his walking papers. He needs time to figure out which path he wants to take and it will be quicker if he's with her. I'm guessing her hot crazy side will show it's self sooner rather then later.


----------



## njbutterfly

Affaircare said:


> njbutterfly,
> 
> I hope you understand that your views and approach to marriage are not what the folks here typically encounter, and thus many of the responses are going to be responses to the more standard definitions of monogamy and fidelity. However, I do see that your definition is slightly different that "the norm" and I will tailor my suggestions to fit your specifically.
> 
> So first, let me just say that from what I read here, I see you are pretty okay with threesomes and some light swinging--which by definition means inviting another person or people into your sex life. It sounds to me, based on your writing, that the defining line for you is that it's okay to have others just for sexual spice...but it's not okay to have others for emotional connection or mental relation. Is that roughly correct?
> 
> And the situation currently is that in the past you had an affair--and due to that affair, at some point you mentioned to your spouse that if he wanted to do the same thing, you'd basically give him a "hall pass" and consider things "even" in the marriage. However, now he has met a 27 year old through work, he asked you if it was okay to go to dinner with her and flirt around, and you agreed as long as he was honest about it and it was only for sex. It took him 6 months of "wining and dining" and drama to finally sleep with her, and now he has feelings for her and effectively won't give her up.
> 
> First, I'd say "GOOD FOR YOU" that you spoke right up on Saturday! I'm proud of you for being open with him and telling him you were not okay with where this is going. I'm also proud of you for being open-minded enough to realize that his view may be different from yours and you are willing to listen to him and consider what he thinks and feels. This is VERY encouraging.
> 
> Second, I'd say that a large part of the issue here is that in a more "standard" definition of infidelity, the line drawn in the sand is a little easier to see: "Forsaking ALL OTHERS" makes it pretty easy to tell if there's been unfaithfulness. Unfortunately, in your marriage, the definition you were using was more like "Casual sex is okay, but no emotional or mental connection."
> 
> Third, I'd say that if that is the definition that he agreed to, then he has betrayed your trust. The way I see it, if she had been amenable to being his f**kbuddy with no strings--a steady Thursday roll in the hay--you may have been okay with it...but instead he spend at least 6 months wooing her and chasing her and that involves emotion and time and connecting!! Further, it doesn't sound as if it was just "Hey let's enjoy each other physically in ways that include your spouse" but rather it was excluding you more and more. Thus it is reasonable for you to feel as if you've been betrayed, because YOU HAVE BEEN.
> 
> Fourth, I'd say that you are struggling with the whole "hall pass" thing, but you didn't say you gave him a hall pass to have a complete mental, emotional, and physical affair with another human being. You gave him a "hall pass" to enjoy a sexual experience that he would then come back to you and share with you, reconnecting with you even more heartily upon his return! Furthermore, for your affair, when your husband found out, you wrote that you ended it immediately and chose him. You never contacted OM again, and even though it was hard you write that you didn't want to break up. Given the choice to choose, you dropped the OM and chose HIM... Yet here you are and given the need to choose between you (and meeting your needs and considering your feelings) and her...he's choosing HER. See how your "hall pass" was NOT a pass to do what is occurring now?
> 
> So here's my advice to you. I would suggest that you take some time to look deep into your own heart and decide what IS and IS NOT okay with you. Clearly, you are willing to give him some freedom and have a very open mind, but equally clearly, he has broken the joint agreement, he has gone beyond what is beneficial to you two as a couple, and he is hurting you and the marriage. Once you have it very clear in your mind what is YOUR issue and what is HIS issue which he is gaslighting you to make you feel like it's yours....then I strongly encourage to you speak up for yourself.
> 
> The long and short of it, for me, is that even in a situation where you agreed to having threesomes and swinging, there were agreed upon "rules" of what was acceptable and what was not. You participated in those activities FOR THE GOOD OF THE MARRIAGE, and each of you did those things to please your spouse and for the benefit of your relationship. CLEARLY this thing he is doing with the 27yo is not to please you and is doing harm, not good, to the marriage. So he doesn't respond to ultimatums? That's cool--don't give him an ultimatum. I'd say "This is not okay with me. The relationship with the 27yo is causing harm to me and to our marriage, and our relationship is primary. You are completely free to make any decision you want, but be aware that based on your choice, I will then need to make decisions of my own...to protect myself and our family against harm if need be." The end. Then let him choose. If he is not willing to give her up and never speak to her again, then he actually IS making a choice--for her!
> 
> After that, you make your own decisions based on the knowledge that his choice is not for the benefit of you and the growth of your marriage. If he is not going to choose you, it is reasonable for you to take action to protect yourself. You don't need to threaten or tell him what you're going to do--just act. He had his chance to make his choice, and he made it!
> 
> THE END.


Thanks, Affaircare! I think you are on the money. The only thing that you may have misunderstood was that it's been 6 weeks of wining and dining the OW, thank goodness not 6 months.  I will be talking to him some more. The pulling back thing seems to anger him, he thinks I don't care and don't want to fight for him. But when I tell him to leave her he feels like it's a powerplay and he can't take that either. Did I mention he may be bi-polar? We had a talk yesterday and he explained a few things to me that I was ignoring in our relationship and he's been holding on to some resentment for that. Nothing sex related, but just things that he needs from me for him to be emotionally ok. I've been neglecting these emotional needs for years, so I'm going to try to start to make good on some of that. I told him on Sunday that the grass is always greener where you water it. And I guess we haven't been watering our own grass lately. So I am taking the initiative to water the grass and give him what he needs so he won't want to go elsewhere. Someone has to start. If this doesn't wake him up (since it will be kind of a 180 for me) then I will go take direct action and actually leave him. Thanks.


----------



## njbutterfly

barbados said:


> Both of you have, at this point, involved several other people sexually into your marriage, starting with your cheating, then with threesomes and swinging, and now this younger woman and your husband.
> 
> I don't see why you are so concerned. You said he could do this. You did it.
> 
> I sounds like the only thing you are mad about is that a younger woman finds your H attractive, and that he now gets to have sexual attention from someone else without you invloved.


Barbados, no it's not the sex that bothers me, it's the emotional connection. They spend too much time together and he said he feels it's difficult to pull away from her when she's around. He's infatuated. He wants to spend all his free time with her. This never happened to either of us before with any of our other adventures. That's what bothers me.


----------



## GusPolinski

njbutterfly said:


> Barbados, no it's not the sex that bothers me, it's the emotional connection. They spend too much time together and he said he feels it's difficult to pull away from her when she's around. He's infatuated. He wants to spend all his free time with her. This never happened to either of us before with any of our other adventures. That's what bothers me.


It could just be that he never really felt any sort of attachment to any of the other women that you guys were having fun with BUT (for him) the potential for that to happen was, to some degree, always there. Now it's happened.

Maybe the solution is to invite her over? Or to perhaps go out w/ them...?


----------



## njbutterfly

russell28 said:


> He never got over your brief fling.. you blamed him, told him you tried to talk to him (you left out the part about having a boyfriend in work I'm sure).. That was one of your excuses for cheating, that you 'tried', when really it was just a feeble attempt and your focus was really on your affair, not your husband.
> 
> You told him what you needed? You told him you needed to have sex with the guy in work because he was making you feel special with words?
> 
> You had an affair, then rug swept it after blame shifting to your husband.. then you gave him permission to get revenge on you, to alleviate your own guilt.. but that backfired, and now he's in an emotional relationship, that he's probably been waiting 18 years to find..
> 
> Here's a start, stop calling your affair a 'brief fling', for starters, it was an affair, and you cheated.. and it wasn't your husbands fault, it was your fault you chose to go there.. that's called *minimizing*, and it's not good for the betrayed spouse as you're finding out now.. It pisses them off.


Russel28,
You misunderstand, that's not how it happened. And I'm not trying to minimize it. I have accepted my responsibility in it, that it was a wrong choice, a terrible choice I made. I could have made a different choice, but I messed up badly. HOWEVER, the fact remains that LONG before I made this wrong choice, before I even met this OM, I had repeated conversations with my husband explaining to him what I needed to be happy, and it wasn't necessarily sex related. I needed attention, affection, to feel like he wanted me, we had started living next to each other totally in a rut. NOT THAT IT'S AN EXCUSE. Just the facts as they were to describe the situation. So when someone paid a little attention to me, that was my downfall. And when I say brief fling, yes it was cheating. But what I meant was that it was over quickly and I broke it off with him right away when it was discovered and never had any contact ever again. And I tried like crazy to make it up to my husband for YEARS afterwards because I did love him and didn't want to leave hm or be left by him. 
You know, Russell28, it's one thing to be helpful and give some kind of advice, but you seem really just very judgmental and while I understand that maybe you must also has been hurt, that's not a reason to lash out at a total stranger asking for advice on how to keep her marriage together. Thank you.


----------



## John Lee

njbutterfly said:


> Barbados, no it's not the sex that bothers me, it's the emotional connection. They spend too much time together and he said he feels it's difficult to pull away from her when she's around. He's infatuated. He wants to spend all his free time with her. This never happened to either of us before with any of our other adventures. That's what bothers me.


I find it kind of flabbergasting that there are people who think this isn't eventually going to happen if you keep having sex with people outside your marriage. And then to make things worse, why doesn't it occur to you that you should just TELL him you don't like him seeing this woman? There's not going to be any magical way for him to keep the sex going while turning off the emotional/infatuation part. You have to tell him it's not ok with you anymore, that you don't feel good about it, and that you want him to end it. You gave him permission, now you're seeing the consequences. But he still has carte blanche from you, so I can't really fault him right now, even though normally I absolutely would.


----------



## njbutterfly

John Lee said:


> I find it kind of flabbergasting that there are people who think this isn't eventually going to happen if you keep having sex with people outside your marriage. And then to make things worse, why doesn't it occur to you that you should just TELL him you don't like him seeing this woman? There's not going to be any magical way for him to keep the sex going while turning off the emotional/infatuation part. You have to tell him it's not ok with you anymore, that you don't feel good about it, and that you want him to end it. You gave him permission, now you're seeing the consequences. But he still has carte blanche from you, so I can't really fault him right now, even though normally I absolutely would.


I know my post is kinda long, so maybe you didn't see that I said I told him I wasn't ok with this type of situation, it wasn't what we initially agreed upon. So I did make that clear. It's a matter of making him understand without actually leaving him. He's in a testosterone induced fog and I'm trying to be gentle with him since brute force never worked. I have to diffuse it carefully or it can backfire and I do want to keep my marriage together, as unconventional as it may be, we do love each other.


----------



## alte Dame

There's no clear line between sex and emotions. Sexual and emotional attachment very, very often go hand in hand, and for clear biological reasons. People who say 'it's just sex' are making false distinctions. There is pretty much always an emotional fallout. If not for you or your H, then for the people you are 'playing' with (and don't their emotions count?).

It's completely obvious that you both play with fire with this if what you want is some security about your emotions. If you don't want him to get infatuated or, dare I say it, fall in love with someone else, you have to tell him he can't be doing this.

It sounds to me, though, like it's already too late. If you ask him to be very honest, I bet he will admit that he thinks he's in love with her.


----------



## njbutterfly

GusPolinski said:


> It could just be that he never really felt any sort of attachment to any of the other women that you guys were having fun with BUT (for him) the potential for that to happen was, to some degree, always there. Now it's happened.
> 
> Maybe the solution is to invite her over? Or to perhaps go out w/ them...?


HAHA! Gus, that was actually what we were hoping for from the beginning he was going to try to get us all to meet. But but she isn't quite that open about these things! You're right there is always that potential especially when we're not having the fun together, as we did in the past.


----------



## GusPolinski

njbutterfly said:


> HAHA! Gus, that was actually what we were hoping for from the beginning he was going to try to get us all to meet. But but she isn't quite that open about these things! You're right there is always that potential especially when we're not having the fun together, as we did in the past.


So, aside from your affair, is this the first time that either of you has been sexually involved w/o someone else w/o the other present? If so, that could really be what's missing for him. So maybe SHE is the one that needs the ultimatum...?


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## ConanHub

Even swingers and folks into threesomes would shoot you guys down for your behavior.

You bring another penis into your marriage through infidelity. You wrote it off as just a fling. You probably rugswept the affair and your marriage certainly suffered because of it.

So what do you two do to "help" your marriage? You bring in some more penis and toss in some extra vagina to "help" a marriage damaged from infidelity?

Bad response to bad behavior.

You two need to start from scratch. Stop fvcking other people thinking it will "help" you at all.

You guys couldn't get faithfulness right before you started swinging and swingers will tell you don't start the lifestyle with a damaged marriage, it won't work.

I wouldn't give you guys much of a chance, but if mommy can stop letting Tom, ****, and Harry explore her birth canal and stick to pleasing daddy instead, you might have a chance.

You and your H should have never started the lifestyle. Damaged relationships usually don't survive it. Even healthy relationships often get destroyed from swinging and threesomes.

Your marriage, OBVIOUSLY, is not one that can handle it.

Get into therapy and work through this, stop fvcking anyone but your H, and he needs to stop swinging his Wang over the fire as well. It seems you have both been burned.

You both need to focus on each other only and for the love of life, start thinking about how
all this activity is affecting your kids!

I hope you two can stabilize, at least for your children.
Take care.


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## convert

you have to talk to him the sooner the better. The longer you let this go on the harder it will be.
He will be pissy and all that. Well he had his hall pass and it is time to turn it in.
you may have to make a visit to this OM to get her to stop. you might want to act a little crazy, make her scared.
flip out on her tell you had no idea this was going on. 

oh man i would love a hall pass. could you give me a hall pass..... oh wait that wouldn't work.
never mind


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## standinginthegap

njbutterfly said:


> 18 years ago, I had a brief fling with someone I worked with.
> 
> I had told him during one of the rough times that if he has an opportunity to have a fling I would allow it (like a hall pass) so he wouldn't feel like I one upped him in the marriage, to even out the playing field. He never took me up on it.


I am not here to judge or to say if you was wrong or right when allowing a hall-pass. But if your fling happened 18 years ago, I wouldn't have allowed it to occur so many years down the line later. If he told you no back then it should have stayed that way.


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## John Lee

njbutterfly said:


> I know my post is kinda long, so maybe you didn't see that I said I told him I wasn't ok with this type of situation, it wasn't what we initially agreed upon. So I did make that clear. It's a matter of making him understand without actually leaving him. He's in a testosterone induced fog and I'm trying to be gentle with him since brute force never worked. I have to diffuse it carefully or it can backfire and I do want to keep my marriage together, as unconventional as it may be, we do love each other.


Well to be fair it's a little hard to follow from your original post what you actually told him, whether you stuck to it, and what the last thing you told him was -- first you tell him it's not ok but then he needs time to process it or something. You made it "clear" that "this type of situation" isn't "what we initially agreed upon." That's not clear to me at all. 

Honestly I think it's very naive to expect that a man can control what happens to his emotions once he starts sleeping with a woman. This is the whole reason boundaries exist -- you can't control your emotions, you can only avoid situations likely to inflame them. "I'm fine with you sleeping with this woman as long as you don't develop feelings for her" just does not compute, it's like telling someone "have as many drinks as you want, just don't be drunk."


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## Affaircare

> Thanks, Affaircare! I think you are on the money. The only thing that you may have misunderstood was that it's been 6 weeks of wining and dining the OW, thank goodness not 6 months.  I will be talking to him some more.


Okay well that does change things a little bit. So he met her at work and they flirted around a bit, and he's spent 1.5 months basically trying to have sex with her. Is she aware that his interest is purely as a swap or threesome partner, or does she think his interest is personal? I think the answer to that question may be important. Did she eventually agree to sleep with him because she thinks he "loves" her?



> The pulling back thing seems to anger him, he thinks I don't care and don't want to fight for him. But when I tell him to leave her he feels like it's a powerplay and he can't take that either. Did I mention he may be bi-polar?


Well DUH! Yeah of course it seems like anger to him, because he wants to have you taking care of Need A, B and C and her taking care of Need X, Y and Z. He wants the benefit of a choice without paying the cost of the choice. 

njbutterfly, every choice has a benefit and a cost. EVERY ONE. The choice to invite others into your marital bed has the benefit of sexual spice, and the cost of opening your marriage to infidelity. The choice to come here and talk about it has the benefit of maybe getting some good advice, and the cost of spending time online rather than with your family. Even choices that you think aren't even choices have benefits and costs!! "He MADE me mad by ignoring me" is a choice you made to become angry--and the benefit is that you release some frustration and may feel 'heard' but the cost is hurting your spouse...and at the moment the benefit seems better than the cost so you choose to become angry. 

He wants the benefit of choosing another woman over you, and he doesn't want to pay the cost (which would be disconnecting with you and gradually losing your love). He wants the benefit of you continuing to care for his children, pay his bills, and run his household, without paying the cost of investing into you and your mutual relationship. Well...that's not how it works. Choosing to pursue another woman and neglect his wife and family has a cost, and the cost hurts. What's he's saying is "I want to have no cost for my choice, and I don't want to hurt so stop making me responsible for what I've chosen!"

What YOU are saying is not a powerplay. He's your PARTNER not your child. He is completely free to choose whatever he wants. But he doesn't get to treat you with disrespect and then expect you to "fight for him." That's not reasonable! If he wants you to fight for him, he'd have to stop doing the action that is actively destroying the marriage! Soooo...he can choose her--but the cost is losing his connection with you. Or he can choose to invest in you and his family--but the cost is missing her for a bit. 



> We had a talk yesterday and he explained a few things to me that I was ignoring in our relationship and he's been holding on to some resentment for that. Nothing sex related, but just things that he needs from me for him to be emotionally ok. I've been neglecting these emotional needs for years, so I'm going to try to start to make good on some of that. I told him on Sunday that the grass is always greener where you water it. And I guess we haven't been watering our own grass lately. So I am taking the initiative to water the grass and give him what he needs so he won't want to go elsewhere. Someone has to start. If this doesn't wake him up (since it will be kind of a 180 for me) then I will go take direct action and actually leave him. Thanks.


Okay I'm encouraged that you're able to have open talks like this, as it sounds like there are some things that you were doing in the past that may have hurt him...and rather than being defensive, you're willing to look at yourself, admit you could change, and then work at the marriage. But njbutterfly, I need to warn you about something. You can not "nice" a person out of an affair. This isn't a competition where you and the OtherWoman (OW) both "do your best" and the one who is better is the one who wins him. That's how he's trying to set it up, and that is unreasonable.

Here's reality: He made a commitment to YOU. His commitment to you was to give 100% of his affection and loyalty to you, and to spend his lifetime studying and loving you. Likewise you made the same commitment to him. Thus, he does have certain responsibilities to you, not the least of which would be giving all of his affection and loyalty to you as his wife. But he owes her nothing! She's...what? An interloper at best! So in real life, due to your position in his life as 'spouse' he owes you at minimum the dignity of treating you with RESPECT...and at that point--when he is treating you with the respect due to you as his spouse--THEN you work on the things that were harming the marriage and instead work on changing those actions to things that build the marriage. 

By saying that there were things you did that didn't meet his needs, he is doing two things: 1) he's trying to justify his affair and why he can't (won't) quit; and 2) he's trying to deflect responsibility to you for his choices. 

If the things he mentioned are things about you that you want to change and believe would make you a better woman and wife--they would make you become the woman you have the potential to be--then by all means keep working on those changes. But work on them because they make you a better person. You can not "nice" a person out of an affair. In the end, to end the affair, you will need to have firm boundaries and let him feel the pain of his choices--and he is NOT going to like that. He will need to choose to end it one his own, and it will hurt and be hard for him because now his heart is entangled with hers a little. The longer it goes, the harder it will be. 

Soooo...rather than trying to "nice" him out of the affair, I suggest you explain to him what I've explained to you today. Let him know that he can choose to honor his promise to you and give you 100% of his affections and loyalty, but that you are not willing to accept crumbs and leftover affection and loyalty He is FREE...absolutely FREE...to make whatever choice he wants, but you expect the honesty, respect and treatment due to you as a spouse, and you won't compete for what is due to you.


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## njbutterfly

Affaircare said:


> Okay well that does change things a little bit. So he met her at work and they flirted around a bit, and he's spent 1.5 months basically trying to have sex with her. Is she aware that his interest is purely as a swap or threesome partner, or does she think his interest is personal? I think the answer to that question may be important. Did she eventually agree to sleep with him because she thinks he "loves" her?
> 
> 
> 
> Well DUH! Yeah of course it seems like anger to him, because he wants to have you taking care of Need A, B and C and her taking care of Need X, Y and Z. He wants the benefit of a choice without paying the cost of the choice.
> 
> njbutterfly, every choice has a benefit and a cost. EVERY ONE. The choice to invite others into your marital bed has the benefit of sexual spice, and the cost of opening your marriage to infidelity. The choice to come here and talk about it has the benefit of maybe getting some good advice, and the cost of spending time online rather than with your family. Even choices that you think aren't even choices have benefits and costs!! "He MADE me mad by ignoring me" is a choice you made to become angry--and the benefit is that you release some frustration and may feel 'heard' but the cost is hurting your spouse...and at the moment the benefit seems better than the cost so you choose to become angry.
> 
> He wants the benefit of choosing another woman over you, and he doesn't want to pay the cost (which would be disconnecting with you and gradually losing your love). He wants the benefit of you continuing to care for his children, pay his bills, and run his household, without paying the cost of investing into you and your mutual relationship. Well...that's not how it works. Choosing to pursue another woman and neglect his wife and family has a cost, and the cost hurts. What's he's saying is "I want to have no cost for my choice, and I don't want to hurt so stop making me responsible for what I've chosen!"
> 
> What YOU are saying is not a powerplay. He's your PARTNER not your child. He is completely free to choose whatever he wants. But he doesn't get to treat you with disrespect and then expect you to "fight for him." That's not reasonable! If he wants you to fight for him, he'd have to stop doing the action that is actively destroying the marriage! Soooo...he can choose her--but the cost is losing his connection with you. Or he can choose to invest in you and his family--but the cost is missing her for a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay I'm encouraged that you're able to have open talks like this, as it sounds like there are some things that you were doing in the past that may have hurt him...and rather than being defensive, you're willing to look at yourself, admit you could change, and then work at the marriage. But njbutterfly, I need to warn you about something. You can not "nice" a person out of an affair. This isn't a competition where you and the OtherWoman (OW) both "do your best" and the one who is better is the one who wins him. That's how he's trying to set it up, and that is unreasonable.
> 
> Here's reality: He made a commitment to YOU. His commitment to you was to give 100% of his affection and loyalty to you, and to spend his lifetime studying and loving you. Likewise you made the same commitment to him. Thus, he does have certain responsibilities to you, not the least of which would be giving all of his affection and loyalty to you as his wife. But he owes her nothing! She's...what? An interloper at best! So in real life, due to your position in his life as 'spouse' he owes you at minimum the dignity of treating you with RESPECT...and at that point--when he is treating you with the respect due to you as his spouse--THEN you work on the things that were harming the marriage and instead work on changing those actions to things that build the marriage.
> 
> By saying that there were things you did that didn't meet his needs, he is doing two things: 1) he's trying to justify his affair and why he can't (won't) quit; and 2) he's trying to deflect responsibility to you for his choices.
> 
> If the things he mentioned are things about you that you want to change and believe would make you a better woman and wife--they would make you become the woman you have the potential to be--then by all means keep working on those changes. But work on them because they make you a better person. You can not "nice" a person out of an affair. In the end, to end the affair, you will need to have firm boundaries and let him feel the pain of his choices--and he is NOT going to like that. He will need to choose to end it one his own, and it will hurt and be hard for him because now his heart is entangled with hers a little. The longer it goes, the harder it will be.
> 
> Soooo...rather than trying to "nice" him out of the affair, I suggest you explain to him what I've explained to you today. Let him know that he can choose to honor his promise to you and give you 100% of his affections and loyalty, but that you are not willing to accept crumbs and leftover affection and loyalty He is FREE...absolutely FREE...to make whatever choice he wants, but you expect the honesty, respect and treatment due to you as a spouse, and you won't compete for what is due to you.



Affaircare, you are spot on!


And btw, she knows everything, he never lied to her, he told her it 's for fun, he was not going to leave his wife. She knew all along about that. Did she know we were thinking about a threesome? Not sure, it's not something you blurt out just like that when you first start to get to know someone (usually). So he had planned to broach the subject carefully not too long after assuming she was amenable to sleeping with him. Which she was after 5 or 6 dates. But she wasn't into the idea. And he never told her he loves her. So she wasn't deceived in any way. 

I'm not trying to out-nice her, but I did look inside myself and feel this would make me a better person, woman, wife, etc. Not for nothing, but I chose to ignore this important need of his and I was wrong about that. That doesn't make it ok for him to ignore my needs but 2 wrongs don't make a right and someone has to begin to clean up the mess and start watering the grass. So I will be the first to stand up and say I was wrong about that and try to set it right. At the same time, you very eloquently wrote what I should say to him and I totally agree. He wants his cake and his girlfriend too, and that's not acceptable so I will need to explain it again. Maybe when he sees that I'm working at meeting his needs, he will want to work at our relationship again too. If not, what have I lost, a week or two? What's that in the face 25 years? I can always threaten to leave (and do it) anytime, but you catch more flies with honey. THANKS!!!


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## badbane

LOL She's playing him for a meal ticket and through him a bone to keep him on the line. Sweetie you husband is not in full on mid life crisis mode. She's infatuated and unless you put the cabash on this it will get worse. Also please don't try to pass the "you were neglected" excuse. I am sure if you invested as much effort into your marriage that you did planning, and executing your affair that you probably wouldn't have felt so neglected. 
You let the genie out of the bottle and now you need to talk some sense into you H or he might be dumb enough to run off with this gold digger.
If this is indeed real or just someone running a hypothetical situation through other people. Then you need to get your marriage back on the rails and get rid of the distractions.


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## njbutterfly

badbane said:


> LOL She's playing him for a meal ticket and through him a bone to keep him on the line. Sweetie you husband is not in full on mid life crisis mode. She's infatuated and unless you put the cabash on this it will get worse. Also please don't try to pass the "you were neglected" excuse. I am sure if you invested as much effort into your marriage that you did planning, and executing your affair that you probably wouldn't have felt so neglected.
> You let the genie out of the bottle and now you need to talk some sense into you H or he might be dumb enough to run off with this gold digger.
> If this is indeed real or just someone running a hypothetical situation through other people. Then you need to get your marriage back on the rails and get rid of the distractions.


Badbane, this is no hypothetical situation. I assure you I am living it. And if you read my posts and replies you would understand that my affair was a very brief brief one and I broke it off completely and immediately. AND I had asked/begged my husband for a long time prior (long before I ever met the OM) for affection, attention, etc. And I did pay attention to him and tried to pull us out of the rut for a long time, but still felt neglected. BUT it was a horrible excuse and I realized too late that it was still a very poor choice I made. I had other choices but I chose excitement and attention over my husband who loved me but just didn't show it and I have felt awful ever since. I've been punished enough for many years. 18 years is enough. The issue at hand is the girl who wants his attention. And the fact that he's in a fog of hormones in lala land when he's around her.


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## Pepper123

I'm not going to judge you on my perception of the decisions you have made in the past. 

They work together -- so you tell him he lets her go or you go to HR. 

He agrees to end contact & indefinite transparency

He agrees to counseling. 

And you BOTH make the decision TOGETHER that there are no more freaking "hall passes." If you are going to continue with your liberal sexual lifestyle, by all means, do your thing. But I would make him agree that there is no more "alone" straying. 

What's done is done... You want him back - give him your terms. If he wants you and the comfort of his family life - like holidays with his kids, he will agree. If not... go dark. Detach. File.

Normally my advise would be very different, but I am trying to be open about what has been done by both of you, whether I agree with it or not. (for the record, I do not)


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## njbutterfly

Pepper123 said:


> I'm not going to judge you on my perception of the decisions you have made in the past.
> 
> They work together -- so you tell him he lets her go or you go to HR.
> 
> He agrees to end contact & indefinite transparency
> 
> He agrees to counseling.
> 
> And you BOTH make the decision TOGETHER that there are no more freaking "hall passes." If you are going to continue with your liberal sexual lifestyle, by all means, do your thing. But I would make him agree that there is no more "alone" straying.
> 
> What's done is done... You want him back - give him your terms. If he wants you and the comfort of his family life - like holidays with his kids, he will agree. If not... go dark. Detach. File.
> 
> Normally my advise would be very different, but I am trying to be open about what has been done by both of you, whether I agree with it or not. (for the record, I do not)


Pepper, 
They don't work together. She came into where he works as a customer. That's how they met. But she lives nearby and seems to show up a lot. To the point that my husband had to tell her to not come around so much because it looks bad in front of his employers. 
Spoke to him about counseling, he'll never do it. I agree with the alone straying. I never should have allowed that. United we stand, divided... well, not so much.


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## HarryDoyle

After rereading this this thread, the only thing I can think tosay is that your marraige is in Deeptrouble. Just sayin'.


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## GusPolinski

HarryDoyle said:


> After rereading this this thread, the only thing I can think tosay is that your marraige is in *Deeptrouble*. Just sayin'.


LOL


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## russell28

njbutterfly said:


> Badbane, this is no hypothetical situation. I assure you I am living it. And if you read my posts and replies you would understand that my affair was a very brief brief one and I broke it off completely and immediately. AND I had asked/begged my husband for a long time prior (long before I ever met the OM) for affection, attention, etc. And I did pay attention to him and tried to pull us out of the rut for a long time, but still felt neglected. BUT it was a horrible excuse and I realized too late that it was still a very poor choice I made. I had other choices but I chose excitement and attention over my husband who loved me but just didn't show it and I have felt awful ever since. I've been punished enough for many years. 18 years is enough. The issue at hand is the girl who wants his attention. And the fact that he's in a fog of hormones in lala land when he's around her.


I see you're still minimizing your affair and blaming your husband... Stop saying it was brief, and stop saying how your husband did x y and z... just skip right to the part where it was your bad choices...


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## sinnister

HarryDoyle said:


> After rereading this this thread, the only thing I can think tosay is that your marraige is in Deeptrouble. Just sayin'.


Well played.


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## Pepper123

So he works in retail? So he tells her to stop coming in. 
He gets a new phone number. 
He blacklists her email address. 

These are not hard, and you are not helpless. If you want to try and reverse the motion of what you perpetuated, you have to take action with a stern hand. 

If you want to increase the divide between the two of you, and allow him to get hooked on his "eros" love, which may turn into an "agape" type love. 

In case you aren't familiar: 

Greek words for love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ever-Man

Sounds to me like you need to let this relationship of your H to play out. Given the age difference I can't imagine she will want him as a husband...since he is smitten if you truncate the natural progression from smitten to interested to happy to bored he may fixate in a stage along the way and quietly pine away for her, perhaps start seeing her behind your back. Be strong and let it run it's course. Your desire for your H is exaggerated now since you see him interested in another woman, and this may be good for your bond long-term. If you can manage your stress till the fling ends it might be the best long term solution.


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## Thorburn

njbutterfly said:


> You make a valid point but divorce is too extreme. He forgave me 18 years ago. Who am I to put him out for something similar? That's not right in my opinion, I'm not a hypocrite. And I am the forgiving sort. I know it just has to run its course but wondering how the 180 not saying I love you rule would help or hurt in this situation. I want to give him the space to process his thoughts and feelings but don't want to give him so much space that he would think I no longer care. Just want to find the right amount of space. If that makes any sense.



You wrote that he forgave you 18 years ago. Then in a later post (shown below) that he "proceeded to make me pay for that for many years, throwing it back in my face...... :scratchhead:


*Husband proceeded to make me "pay" for that for many years, throwing it back in my face constantly even while telling me I'm forgiven. Some days were better, some worse, but I stuck it out. We stayed together, had more kids together. I love him, it was a bad choice I made. He said he forgave me.
We didn't want to split up.

I had told him during one of the rough times that if he has an opportunity to have a fling I would allow it (like a hall pass) so he wouldn't feel like I one upped him in the marriage, to even out the playing field. He never took me up on it.* 


Throw in your husband being bi-polar into the mix, that is why you are walking on egg shells.

You have kids as well

I grew up with friends who's parents were just like the two of you, and I mean almost exactly the same story, same sexual adventures, etc. My friends happened to be twins and their younger brother took pictures of his parents and their friends having sex to school. It became a huge scandal when it was revealed who were all in the pictures. 

Personally I have never seen these types of relationships end well, and you are just another example.


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## njbutterfly

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have an update. The fling ran it's course and he broke it off with her. As soon as the money got tight (because he was spending it on partying with her faster than he was earning it) she started to show her "displeasure". And he realized she's not going to be there for him like I have been. So we're working through it. Thanks all!


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## clipclop2

Lucky for you she was only into the money.

I'm rolling my eyes.

You are one foolish woman. You are married to one foolish man.


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## HarryDoyle

That's just awesome! Another crises averted thanks to TAM!!:smthumbup:

Remember it's all just water under the _bridge_.


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## clipclop2

OP, you realize you are in denial, right? The chance that he won't cheat on you again if for no other reason than to have sex with other women is nil.

Now that he had that feeling for someone else he will never return to you fully. He had years resenting you for your affair. He tasted someone else. Why would he want you now? 

Not sure he should either, given that you cheated on him.

You aren't even. 

He won.

Talk to a lawyer.


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## Squeakr

russell28 said:


> I see you're still minimizing your affair and blaming your husband... Stop saying it was brief, and stop saying how your husband did x y and z... just skip right to the part where it was your bad choices...


I agree with russell (the quoted and other post you tore to shreds by russell). I know that you don't like this assessment, but you need to address the issues in yourself. I read the entire thread and all I have heard is that you were not happy, BECAUSE and then a load of blame on your H. If you were truly over your "brief fling" of 18 years ago, you would have not made his shortcomings such an issue (yet that is how you started your post, so you still harbor some resentment). 

You said you two talked and then said he had issues with your treatment of him, yet you started down the road of him being bi-polar and other excuses to rug sweep those concerns he has voiced. I have not heard you acknowledge any of your issues or shortcomings (come on, we all have them) except those that were related to your H's treatment of/ dealings with you (and ultimately led to an A and the current state where he is "neglecting" you).

You both need counseling to address these issue, and you need to focus on him more, and he on you. You also need to address the concerns he has voiced, there is a reason that he feels he is no new, loved, etc and sought it from her (yet you just wrote it off as he being bi-polar, and she didn't have to deal with his issues everyday or she would react the same way. Sorry but this is blaming him and making it about his issue and exonerating you of your responsibilities.). Stop blaming him and start looking at your faults.

I wish you luck, as I think you are really going to need it unless you start to address the issues you both have.


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