# Are Women Better at Hiding Cheating?



## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html

Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I know women cheat at least as much as men but deceit is a genderless trait.

There are some simply fantastic male liars as well as women.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I think a better question to ask the women here is: 
Would you trust a woman or a man with your marriage?

I think there's a reason women don't trust other women.
They know them better than we men do...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I know women cheat at least as much as men but deceit is a genderless trait.
> 
> There are some simply fantastic male liars as well as women.


Exactly. Making this a gender thing is telling and laughable.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think *women are far more sneaky and clever than men* Will ever be.


Are you talking about Adam and Eve?....etc.

Everyone knows this.
It's a story told throughout the ages.
Old as time itself. 
But hey, It's not relevant today.....we are smarter and better than anyone in history ever was.
We are quite a pretentious culture.

It's why WW don't successfully reconcile as often as WH do.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


Of course you do


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Of course you do


So you trust men and women equally?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you do
> ...


I do.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

From my personal experience my FWW was flat out sneaky. No evidence on cell phone, email, facebook. I had my IT staff snoop her iPad,IPhone, and laptop...nothing. I knew then and there it had to be occurring in the workplace, and my hunch was proven correct.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


I think men have cornered the market on cheating since the* dawn of time*, and women have only recently started to catch up to them. But I still think men will always likely be the winners as far as who cheats more.

Secondly, I think women are probably better at hiding things because we're used to multi-tasking most of our lives away and doing multiple things all at once, so lying about an affair is probably just another 'task' for some. They can probably fairly easily lie to their husbands about where they really were while they're busy setting the table, wiping their kid's nose, putting laundry in the washer, opening the mail, cooking dinner, and helping the kids with their homework. 

I also tend to think women are* much* more intuitive than men so it's not so much that women are 'better' liars, but maybe it's more likely because men simply aren't as _skilled _at sensing a woman's decpetion as a woman is at sensing a man's. That's that 'women's intuition' you always hear about.

Just my opinion, anyway.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> From my personal experience my FWW was flat out sneaky. No evidence on cell phone, email, facebook. I had my IT staff snoop her iPad,IPhone, and laptop...nothing. I knew then and there it had to be occurring in the workplace, and my hunch was proven correct.


I didn't get the memo where your WW speaks for our gender.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I didn't get the memo where your WW speaks for our gender.



Eternally offended, angry and always the victim. You must get along with all of the millennials like a champ. I sure as hell hope you aren't the designated spokesperson.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I think men have cornered the market on cheating since the* dawn of time*, and women have only recently started to catch up to them. But I still think men will always likely be the winners as far as who cheats more.
> 
> Secondly, I think women are probably better at hiding things because we're used to multi-tasking most of our lives away and doing multiple things all at once, so lying about an affair is probably just another 'task' for some. They can probably fairly easily lie to their husbands about where they really were while they're busy setting the table, wiping their kid's nose, putting laundry in the washer, opening the mail, cooking dinner, and helping the kids with their homework.
> 
> ...


I often find it fascinating how women will go around the world to get across the street.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

So with a slight T/J 

Who does everyone think HANDLES being betrayed better, Men or Women?

My answer to that would have to be Women, hands down, no question.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


And I've known many more lying, sneaky, piggish men my whole life - I've been hit on by more married men than I can remember at this point. Hell, 25 years ago when my ex-H was a volunteer member of the town's fire department, the amount of *screwing around* and lying and sneaking and deceit by 90% of those guys was unbelievable. Same with the police department - another bunch of cheating scumbags who thought they were above the law. In less than a year after leaving my ex-H, I had three different married cops all hit on me - two who knew me and knew I'd recently become single (like that mattered to them) and one who didn't know me but stopped me for a lame reason and after seeing my information, let me go. Later that night after dark, I noticed a cop car parked across from my apartment just idling there in the dark for like 30 minutes. I had no curtains on my sliding glass doors and had been unpacking boxes all night as I'd just moved in. I felt like I was in a fish bowl. 

The wives of these cretins? Always home with their kids keeping the home fires burning and completely clueless as to what their husbands were really up to a lot of time. 

I've known 3 women over the last 30 years who have cheated on their husbands. 

You'll *never* convince me that more women cheat than men. Never.

But honestly, if you were a woman always being hit on by married men every time you turned around, you'd probably understand much better _why_ I think the way I do.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


Hehehe. Sir, I am easily 20x as sneaky and good at hiding things as my wife and probably sneakier than the majority of women I have met.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


I'm not sure I have an opinion on this, but my wife completely agrees with you.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't get the memo where your WW speaks for our gender.
> ...


Who hurt you?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Rubix Cubed said:
> 
> 
> > personofinterest said:
> ...


I'm not a victim at all.

I AM a survivor...of rape and molestation, of cancer, of a terribly lonely sexless marriage, of betrayal, of a suicide attempt...

But I am supremely blessed.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure I have an opinion on this, but my wife completely agrees with you.


Women know women.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Seems difficult to measure. Most people who cheat are not going to answer surveys honestly, and people may have different abilities to hid different types of lies. 

Not really important anyway - unless you are bisexual you are stuck with romantic partners of a particular gender, so how often the other gender cheats really isn't particularly interesting. I'm not about to start dating men even if I thought women cheated more (which I don't)

have no particular reason to believe either gender cheats more, nor do I have any reason to think its the same.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure I have an opinion on this, but my wife completely agrees with you.
> ...


I DO think there is truth in the saying that there is nothing meaner than a mean woman. I've been hurt by a man or two, but women can be VICIOUS


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> From my personal experience my FWW was flat out sneaky. No evidence on cell phone, email, facebook. I had my IT staff snoop her iPad,IPhone, and laptop...nothing. I knew then and there it had to be occurring in the workplace, and my hunch was proven correct.


Have you discussed just how much effort she put into deceiving you and keeping her affair hidden?

She was committed to keeping it a secret and succeeded until you went alpha on her.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I DO think there is truth in the saying that there is nothing meaner than a mean woman. I've been hurt by a man or two, but women can be VICIOUS


I think this goes to the same point the OP was making.
It's timeless.
We all know it.
It's not nice to say...but the truth is a bitter pill.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> And I've known many more lying, sneaky, piggish men my whole life - I've been hit on by more married men than I can remember at this point. Hell, 25 years ago when my ex-H was a volunteer member of the town's fire department, the amount of *screwing around* and lying and sneaking and deceit by 90% of those guys was unbelievable. Same with the police department - another bunch of cheating scumbags who thought they were above the law. In less than a year after leaving my ex-H, I had three different married cops all hit on me - two who knew me and knew I'd recently become single (like that mattered to them) and one who didn't know me but stopped me for a lame reason and after seeing my information, let me go. Later that night after dark, I noticed a cop car parked across from my apartment just idling there in the dark for like 30 minutes. I had no curtains on my sliding glass doors and had been unpacking boxes all night as I'd just moved in. I felt like I was in a fish bowl.
> 
> The wives of these cretins? Always home with their kids keeping the home fires burning and completely clueless as to what their husbands were really up to a lot of time.
> 
> ...


That's the thing about anecdotes, and why I don't take a position on this.

My parents were the third marriage for my dad. In his first two, the marriage ended when his wife cheated (he did not).

My wife's parents are divorces... on account of MIL's cheating (FIL was faithful). 

I have a half brother from my father's marriage who has two failed marriages, both as the result of his wife's infidelity (while he was faithful).

My wife's brother is divorced.... following his wife's extramarital affair (while he was faithful).

Throughout my (and my wife's) family tree I don't know of a single case of the man cheating, but there are tons of examples of the women cheating. 

But in spite of all this, I know that this is just my experience and isn't representative of the world at large. 

But to make sense out of your experience in light of the actual question in the OP, I think it likely that women are better at being discreet about it. Men are more likely to be blunt instruments. We knuckle draggers (for the most part) aren't particularly good at discretion or subtlety. So it's certainly going to look like men are the most frequent cheaters. Whether or not they actually are is harder to determine.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Have you discussed just how much effort she put into deceiving you and keeping her affair hidden?
> 
> She was committed to keeping it a secret and succeeded until you went alpha on her.


Hell yes. First thing i addressed when we sat down after D-Day. I let her have it with both barrels the next morning. She said she honestly could not tell me if it would have ended without my intervention. Our first MC session addressed, too.

She is still extremely ashamed of her actions. She has worked hard on herself in IC, and I am proud of her. I went nuclear as far as outing her to family and close friends. That one act knocked her off her feet majorly.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Who hurt you?


 Yo mama, and hurt me bad too.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I DO think there is truth in the saying that there is nothing meaner than a mean woman. I've been hurt by a man or two, but women can be VICIOUS


That's exactly what my wife says. 

Kind of eye opening for us guys raised with a romantic vision of "the fairer sex."


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I'm not a victim at all.
> 
> I AM a survivor...of rape and molestation, of cancer, of a terribly lonely sexless marriage, of betrayal, of a suicide attempt...
> 
> But I am supremely blessed.


 You'd think with all you've been through you might have a less ****ty way of addressing people and wouldn't try to be the Queen of snark. You seem to go through spells of this and now you seem to be at a peak. Your projection is strong. I miss your non-accusatory helpful posts, hell, even the accusatory helpful posts.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I think men cheat a lot of the time because the opportunity is there.
Women seem to think longer and harder before they cheat (not always obviously) and therefore are better prepared to hide their tracks.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You'd think with all you've been through you might have a less ****ty way of addressing people and wouldn't try to be the Queen of snark. You seem to go through spells of this and now you seem to be at a peak. Your projection is strong. I miss your non-accusatory helpful posts, hell, even the accusatory helpful posts.


If POI is "the queen of snark," I shudder to think of what that makes She'sStillGotIt!:grin2:

BTW, I love most of both of their posts. Some things are just meant to be delivered bluntly, without sugar coating. I don't see a little attitude and "helpful" as being mutually exclusive. 2x4s have their place too.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> And I've known many more lying, sneaky, piggish men my whole life - I've been hit on by more married men than I can remember at this point. Hell, 25 years ago when my ex-H was a volunteer member of the town's fire department, the amount of *screwing around* and lying and sneaking and deceit by 90% of those guys was unbelievable. Same with the police department - another bunch of cheating scumbags who thought they were above the law. In less than a year after leaving my ex-H, I had three different married cops all hit on me - two who knew me and knew I'd recently become single (like that mattered to them) and one who didn't know me but stopped me for a lame reason and after seeing my information, let me go. Later that night after dark, I noticed a cop car parked across from my apartment just idling there in the dark for like 30 minutes. I had no curtains on my sliding glass doors and had been unpacking boxes all night as I'd just moved in. I felt like I was in a fish bowl.
> 
> The wives of these cretins? Always home with their kids keeping the home fires burning and completely clueless as to what their husbands were really up to a lot of time.
> 
> ...


When I hear things like this, I always think about who the cheater is cheating with? If men cheat way more than women, who are they cheating with? 

I think the vast majority of time, they are cheating with a woman that is also cheating. I think it is is probably fairly equal between the two sexes. I do however agree that women are typically better at both hiding it and in sensing it than men.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I DO think there is truth in the saying that there is nothing meaner than a mean woman. I've been hurt by a man or two, but women can be VICIOUS


I remember being in line at the gas station a few years ago. One of the two guys behind the glass was pissed off about something. I don't speak Arabic so the only thing I could make out was every few seconds he'd throw in a "****ing *****" or some other explitive in English. At the end he said, "whatever the devil didn't think of, a woman sure as hell will".


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> If POI is "the queen of snark," I shudder to think of what that makes She'sStillGotIt!:grin2:
> 
> BTW, I love most of both of their posts. Some things are just meant to be delivered bluntly, without sugar coating. I don't see a little attitude and "helpful" as being mutually exclusive. 2x4s have their place too.


 No comparison in the two. SSGI does it to get the OP's attention and shake them to awareness. POI does it to try to intentionally hurt or offend responders to the OP's thread.
There is also a huge difference between being blunt and being snarky. Snarky is passive aggressive as hell.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's exactly what my wife says.
> 
> Kind of eye opening for us guys raised with a romantic vision of "the fairer sex."


I have no illusions. I grew up with mostly female relatives and female sports are electrifying in intensity and how viscous they are towards opponents.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> No comparison in the two. SSGI does it to get the OP's attention and shake them to awareness. POI does it to try to intentionally hurt or offend responders to the OP's thread.
> There is also a huge difference between being blunt and being snarky. Snarky is passive aggressive as hell.


Wow. I'm impressed by your remote diagnostic capabilities!

Silly me, I've not need those posts as intentionally hurtful or offensive. Maybe I'm just plain blind.... or maybe I'm just not quite so thin skinned.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


This entire article is based on men and women's faces. It has nothing to do with who is sneakier, who can hide information better, or who can lie about it better. If anything it can be a study more relatable to the Halo effect and how men and women judge attractiveness. 

In this study, women and men judged head shots. They both picked the most attractive men as the cheaters and were right. Men had a harder time picking out the cheating women. Could be because men have a wider range of what they find physically attractive. Could be because they have a hard time reading facial expressions. Who the heck knows exactly but it's a huge leap to go from "men can't pick out the cheaters from a head shot" to "women are sneakier".


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> So with a slight T/J
> 
> Who does everyone think HANDLES being betrayed better, Men or Women?
> 
> My answer to that would have to be Women, hands down, no question.



When you say "handles", are you referring to people who are cheated on but refuse to leave or people who are cheated on but get out quickly?

If I cheated on my wife, I'm willing to bet her need to have a father for the kids and someone in the house to fix stuff will outweigh her need to have a spouse who has never cheated. On the otherhand, if I found out she went outside the marriage that would be a problem for me. If I stayed, that would mean I have completely hit rock bottom.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I have no illusions. I grew up with mostly female relatives and female sports are electrifying in intensity and how viscous they are towards opponents.


I spent four years in school with usually sixteen classmates.Fifteen were girls.
When girls fight (especially each other)they go straight for the jugular. 
And they don’t forgive or forget too easily either.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a victim at all.
> ...


 I am sure the kind, emotionally intelligent, tactful way you addressed this concern will help me to see the light. Pot, meet kettle.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> No Longer Lonely Husband said:
> 
> 
> > https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> ...


 Careful… you will be accused of all sorts of snarky of noxious things if you don't agree with everyone here lol


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StillSearching said:


> I often find it fascinating how women will go around the world to get across the street.


You are one bitter dude.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Careful… you will be accused of all sorts of snarky of noxious things if you don't agree with everyone here lol


hhhhhm. Do people on this board really DO that? Like anyone we know?

How about the pot calling the kettle black?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Careful… you will be accused of all sorts of snarky of noxious things if you don't agree with everyone here lol
> ...


 Hey, if all my biggest fans are going to tag team, then I deserve a team to lol


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

My youngest is in high school. The way high school behave certainly gives cause to think that stereotypes have merit whether their origin be nature or nurture. Boys too. I wonder if your average male is just too dumb to cover their tracks well.


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## Imajerk17 (Apr 10, 2018)

Well, clearly for (most) every affair there is both a man and a woman in it. So unless one gender has a significantly higher rate of taking on single APs, that means that MW and MM have affairs at about the same rate.

BUT, I think a higher percentage of women cheat. Doesn't that go against what I said just above? Not really--it seems that women who cheat, tend to cheat with The Town Scumbag, who has had 3 or 4 affairs with a different woman each time. So that is 3 or 4 instances of cheating, but only one male participated in them whereas 3 or 4 women participated.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Hey, if all my biggest fans are going to tag team, then I deserve a team to lol


Cracks me up when people decry loudly the very thing they are the most guilty of.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, if all my biggest fans are going to tag team, then I deserve a team to lol
> ...


Yes, quite a few people tend to do that. 

I think there are actually studies about how common that is. Not that that makes it a good quality.

If only I didnt go around claiming to have achieved perfection and, instead, had been open about my weaknesses, struggles, triggers, and shortcomings.....

Oh wait, I have


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Imajerk17 said:


> Well, clearly for (most) every affair there is both a man and a woman in it. So unless one gender has a significantly higher rate of taking on single APs, that means that MW and MM have affairs at about the same rate.
> 
> BUT, I think a higher percentage of women cheat.


Those are 2 interestingly bit of opposing views. Not sure of the value of this but just for fun

https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america



> Doesn't that go against what I said just above? Not really--it seems that women who cheat, tend to cheat with The Town Scumbag, who has had 3 or 4 affairs with a different woman each time. So that is 3 or 4 instances of cheating, but only one male participated in them whereas 3 or 4 women participated.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> If only I didnt go around claiming to have achieved perfection


.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > If only I didnt go around claiming to have achieved perfection
> ...


.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Seems difficult to measure. Most people who cheat are not going to answer surveys honestly, and people may have different abilities to hid different types of lies.
> 
> Not really important anyway - unless you are bisexual you are stuck with romantic partners of a particular gender, so how often the other gender cheats really isn't particularly interesting. I'm not about to start dating men even if I thought women cheated more (which I don't)
> 
> have no particular reason to believe either gender cheats more, nor do I have any reason to think its the same.


 @uhtred, my friend, (humorous) this is one of the best fence riding posts.

I was just thinking durned if we do, durned if we don't, voice an opinion here.

That being said 😎 in my very humble opinion if an average woman is going to cheat, usually they can pull it off better than if an average man was doing the same.

I believe both sexes have many that cheat, many don't, I really can't commit to who does more.

I think the numbers of both vary by age, life stages, and affluence. 
Those factors combine all through life and certain persons who have made peace with cheating in advance may come close to the fence or jump it enthusiastically when opportunities arise.

Others will never.

A side note: 
It's the ones who think/have a "well if I never cheat, my SO will never cheat" mentality who can suffer the most.

Here's a question, that's come up time to time. I know my answer, but any thoughts on:

Is cheating always bad? 

Like I said, I know my answer (yes) but I may not have gone through things others have world wide, so I thought I'd see if any thoughts?

Sorry if off on a tangent.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> You are one bitter dude.


I'm not bitter.
I am genuinely fascinated by how women talk and rationalize. 
Even if they openly have sex with men, other than their husband, and rationalize that too.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StillSearching said:


> I'm not bitter.
> I am genuinely fascinated by how women talk and rationalize.
> Even if they openly have sex with men, other than their husband, and rationalize that too.


What do you think about men who have sex with women other than their wives and "rationalize" that?

ETA: I was actually jokin about the bitter dude comment.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Here's a question, that's come up time to time. I know my answer, but any thoughts on:
> 
> Is cheating always bad?


I really can't help wonder myself. I know I would not choose deception in my life. Obviously my PoV is a bit different from others. But historically, that one person in a marriage wanted little or no sex was handled with discreet cheating. I am not sure when, in history, sex became The Big F'ing Thing of marriage. I get it. Historically marriage was a LOT of things it, thankfully, needn't be today. But there is a lot still present in marriage from common property, to kids, to genuine love ... but differences wrt sex. I know a guy whose wife has no interest in sex At All. She will give it up at a rate that officially renders the marriage sexless. They've been married for over 30 years. "Should" he have addressed this over the years? Sure. But he didn't. His wife does not like talking about it. Etcetera. 

Everything about his life is genuinely awesome. He loves his wife. I don't buy the new agey well he must not if he wants to bang someone else. He would vastly prefer to bang his wife. But when you are starving, a saltine tastes good. Or so I am told. I would not cheat with him. Not good for ME the way I roll and feel. But I wished him the best of luck. Couldn't judge the dude.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> What do you think about men who have sex with women other than their wives and "rationalize" that?
> 
> ETA: I was actually jokin about the bitter dude comment.


I think it cannot reasonably be rationalized. 
Maybe all parties involved except the free to bang ticket? Maybe...who really knows?
To me, its like smoking banana leaves and telling people how high you get.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StillSearching said:


> I think it cannot reasonably be rationalized.
> Maybe all parties involved except the free to bang ticket? Maybe...who really knows?


I certainly have no idea. Never known anyone even interested in a free to bang ticket. Cheers.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I can't really comment on the "is cheating always bad", because unlike most people it just doesn't seem that bad to me. Not totally OK but no something that is going to leave me feeling anger at women for many years. 

I know lots of people cheat. I don't think my wife does but it wouldn't end my world if I found out she had been. 




Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @uhtred, my friend, (humorous) this is one of the best fence riding posts.
> 
> I was just thinking durned if we do, durned if we don't, voice an opinion here.
> 
> ...


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## SuburbanDad (Jul 31, 2018)

Let's play tit for tat then


I know the majority of our local school PTO are former and active cheaters right now. All women 

Is it the free time they have during the day? Their tennis instructors? Personal trainers? 

All of the above

I coached a girls sport for my kids for 8 years. I'm married with a ring on. I was hit on every season (fall and spring).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I really can't help wonder myself. I know I would not choose deception in my life. Obviously my PoV is a bit different from others. But historically, that one person in a marriage wanted little or no sex was handled with discreet cheating. I am not sure when, in history, sex became The Big F'ing Thing of marriage. I get it. Historically marriage was a LOT of things it, thankfully, needn't be today. But there is a lot still present in marriage from common property, to kids, to genuine love ... but differences wrt sex. I know a guy whose wife has no interest in sex At All. She will give it up at a rate that officially renders the marriage sexless. They've been married for over 30 years. "Should" he have addressed this over the years? Sure. But he didn't. His wife does not like talking about it. Etcetera.
> 
> Everything about his life is genuinely awesome. He loves his wife. I don't buy the new agey well he must not if he wants to bang someone else. He would vastly prefer to bang his wife. But when you are starving, a saltine tastes good. Or so I am told. I would not cheat with him. Not good for ME the way I roll and feel. But I wished him the best of luck. Couldn't judge the dude.


Those are my thoughts too.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Curious. Let's say women are better at hiding it. What would one do with that information?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Curious. Let's say women are better at hiding it. What would one do with that information?


I used it to pick up chicks last night.
It's the PUA slight of hand.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. *I also feel women cheat as much as men*. *What say ye?*


Interesting discussion. As to do women cheat as much as men? Yes and no. I think on average women cheat as much as or more than men, but I think it is a very bi-modal distribution. Some women cheat a lot and some not so much at all. I also think that there is a bi-modal distribution for men that cheat, but the those that don't cheat much, probably cheat more than the women who don't cheat much. I think that there are words in our language for women who cheat excessively, Nymphomaniacs, Sl#ts, etc. are words for women that have sex with lots of men. In fact there are professions such as prostitutes, strippers, erotic massage parlor ladies, etc. the employ hyperactive women sex workers. So I guess, I think that on average women cheat more.

If you think about the article, it basically says that women can get away with cheating because their facial expressions don't give them away. 

It also talks about poaching, that is say a person talking to you and your spouse signaling if they would like sex with one of you. If it is a man, it is obvious to both you and your wife, if it is a woman neither you nor your wife can tell. 

So let's say it is clear to your wife that a man wants to poach her and her facial expressions won't give her away to her husband. That sort of gives her a choice or not. If she suspects her husband has ever cheated, this is her hall pass or revenge sex partner, should she want to collect. Tough Love hubby!

On the other hand if it is a woman propositioning your husband, you might not be sure she will poach, but you can see in his eyes that he very well might be good to go for sex with her. That would likely make a woman unhappy.

I also think that socially, society accepts men cheating more than it accepts women cheating, which is why women have to be better at hiding it.

I suspect that the article is correct and that "on average" that women cheat more than men, because they can and because for some women its either a job, a hobby, or a passion.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Imajerk17 said:


> Well, clearly for (most) every affair there is both a man and a woman in it. So unless one gender has a significantly higher rate of taking on single APs, that means that MW and MM have affairs at about the same rate.
> 
> BUT, I think a higher percentage of women cheat. Doesn't that go against what I said just above? Not really--it seems that women who cheat, tend to cheat with The Town Scumbag, who has had 3 or 4 affairs with a different woman each time. So that is 3 or 4 instances of cheating, but only one male participated in them whereas 3 or 4 women participated.


That the perception I have as well. That how you can have more women cheating than men. The amount of women chasing about the charming guy with swag is noticeable. There's a theory that the top 20% of men are sharing the 80 % of women. You rarely hear of a woman with multiple affair partners. Serial cheating yes but not at the same time. But you hear of a lot of men stringing multiple women along.

I think many of these woman know it's happening but they self delude themselves because deep down they're willing to share. They rather share their bad boy than settle for an average guy. Hell why do you think the run away wife is such a big thing. They get tired of the husband who is predictable. He could be a good man, provider, father, decent shape but if he doesn't have swag or overbearing confidence bordering on self delusion, he's in danger of being turned into a part time dad because she's bored.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

jsmart said:


> That the perception I have as well. That how you can have more women cheating than men. The amount of women chasing about the charming guy with swag is noticeable. *There's a theory that the top 20% of men are sharing the 80 % of women*. You rarely hear of a woman with multiple affair partners. Serial cheating yes but not at the same time. But you hear of a lot of men stringing multiple women along.
> 
> I think many of these woman know it's happening but they self delude themselves because deep down they're willing to share. They rather share their bad boy than settle for an average guy. Hell why do you think the run away wife is such a big thing. They get tired of the husband who is predictable. He could be a good man, provider, father, decent shape but if he doesn't have swag or overbearing confidence bordering on self delusion, he's in danger of being turned into a part time dad because she's bored.


Yes, you describe the Natures Dominance Hierarchy.
Been around for literally billions of years.
It's not a theory...It's reality.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> From my personal experience my FWW was flat out sneaky. No evidence on cell phone, email, facebook. I had my IT staff snoop her iPad,IPhone, and laptop...nothing. I knew then and there it had to be occurring in the workplace, and my hunch was proven correct.


This is why I think your wife can cheat again with out you ever knowing it. 

Sorry NLLH but I don’t trust your wife at all. 

To calculating on what she did after you found out.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

ABHale said:


> This is why I think your wife can cheat again with out you ever knowing it.
> 
> Sorry NLLH but I don’t trust your wife at all.
> 
> To calculating on what she did after you found out.


Well I do now. After much IC an MC she has fixed what was “broken” in her AB. She always puts me first and she is with me most of the time as I have slowed down my working hours going into my office for only 4 hours a day and no weekends.
We are doing GREAT to say the least. My new marriage is pretty damn good if you asked me. If you were to meet my wife you would like her, too. After the hell she caught from our kids, her siblings, her mom and lastly this jarhead, I highly doubt it. Our communication is pretty good, and my MC said if he was a betting man, he would lay odds she will never cheat again.

Rock on brother. I am fired up as my favorite band, the Doobie Brothers, is performing about 120 miles away, not far from where I was born, and I am leaving to go to see them. NLLH over and out.:smile2:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I would bet that ACTUAL research (you know, the scientific kind, not facial perception click bait) would indicate men and women cheat at about the same rate.

I mean, what's the point of this "contest" anyway? To prove one gender is "bad"?

I think it's pretty obvious people who choose that line of thinking do it for reasons that have nothing to do with research. The "all men are pigs"/"knock the skanks off their pedestals" types are mainly influenced by their own maladaptation in the face of life's unfairness.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

All of the men I know personally , including myself, who’s marriage ended happened because the wife cheated. 15 divorces all wives cheated. I think most of the women I dated were also divorced Because of their husbands cheating including my GF 

I don’t think women cheat more than men but at the same level. And cheating isn’t a gender flaw it’s a character one and both men and women can have low character


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Wolf1974 said:


> All of the men I know personally , including myself, who’s marriage ended happened because the wife cheated. 15 divorces all wives cheated. I think most of the women I dated were also divorced Because of their husbands cheating including my GF
> 
> I don’t think women cheat more than men but at the same level. And cheating isn’t a gender flaw it’s a character one and both men and women can have low character


Exactly. Crappy people come in all cultures, races, and genders.

And so do good people.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

It would make sense from a biological/evolutionary perspective that women would be harder to read as cheaters. Historically, at least in patriarchal societies, the consequences for being caught as a cheater typically have been far more significant for woman than men, particularly with respect to procreation. Thus, it seems that the genetic traits contributing to "unreadability" would be more likely to be passed on to subsequent generations.

And this article/study only addressed physical appearance and doesn't bear on whether men or women are inherently more "sneaky," which I doubt has much to do with gender. Conclusions on that point based on anecdotal evidence and sample sizes limited to one's personal circle of acquaintances are laughable. But, we love to demonize those who've hurt us and ours, so I doubt the laws of statistical significance will put an end to those sorts of comments.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Whether women are truly sneakier or better able to cover their tracks can be debated.

It's 5.28 x 10 to the 17th power easier for women to cheat so therefor it's a lot easier for them to stay in the shadows and not expose themselves to risk of getting as much as men.

Men have to work harder, be more assertive and put themselves out there a lot harder in order to get some extra on the side so they are naturally going to be exposed to more risk.

If you are the one having to out yourself out there and be more aggressive to get some tail, you are also going to assume a higher risk of getting caught.


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## faithfulman (Jun 4, 2018)

Come the **** on.

Men cheat more. Way more.

There are tons of men who will **** any woman, any time, if she will let them, regardless if he has a wife, a girlfriend, is a grandfather etc.

Go to any office - shoot, go anywhere and you will see many more men "on the make" than you will see women, married or otherwise.

But women cheat more...than people think they do.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Satisfied Mind said:


> It would make sense from a biological/evolutionary perspective that women would be harder to read as cheaters. Historically, at least in patriarchal societies, the consequences for being caught as a cheater typically have been far more significant for woman than men, particularly with respect to procreation. Thus, it seems that the genetic traits contributing to "unreadability" would be more likely to be passed on to subsequent generations.
> 
> And this article/study only addressed physical appearance and doesn't bear on whether men or women are inherently more "sneaky," which I doubt has much to do with gender. Conclusions on that point based on anecdotal evidence and sample sizes limited to one's personal circle of acquaintances are laughable. But, we love to demonize those who've hurt us and ours, so I doubt the laws of statistical significance will put an end to those sorts of comments.


Very astute ppints


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I am sure the kind, emotionally intelligent, tactful way you addressed this concern will help me to see the light. Pot, meet kettle.


 You can only reach some people by speaking their language.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure the kind, emotionally intelligent, tactful way you addressed this concern will help me to see the light. Pot, meet kettle.
> ...


I want to apologize for the knee jerk and snark I've exhibited in this thread.

Hurting other people is not who I want to be.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Well I do now. After much IC an MC she has fixed what was “broken” in her AB. She always puts me first and she is with me most of the time as I have slowed down my working hours going into my office for only 4 hours a day and no weekends.
> We are doing GREAT to say the least. My new marriage is pretty damn good if you asked me. If you were to meet my wife you would like her, too. After the hell she caught from our kids, her siblings, her mom and lastly this jarhead, I highly doubt it. Our communication is pretty good, and my MC said if he was a betting man, he would lay odds she will never cheat again.
> 
> Rock on brother. I am fired up as *my favorite band, the Doobie Brothers*, is performing about 120 miles away, not far from where I was born, and I am leaving to go to see them. NLLH over and out.:smile2:


 Nice!
The first band I ever saw live was the Doobie Brothers, in 1976. 

NLLH,
I'm in the same camp as ABHale but I'm extremely glad you're happy and pray that you can stay that way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


I don't know. My wife never actually hid her cheating so this is not a subject I have personal knowledge of.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I want to apologize for the knee jerk and snark I've exhibited in this thread.
> ...


No, it was sincere.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> No, it was sincere.


 My apologies then.
I may be a little short-fused due to being a bit wrung up about a medical procedure I have to go through tomorrow.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


No, women don't have men beaten in the gaslighting department. Women do cheat as much as men.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Women are just as culpable, if not moreso, than their male counterparts in the marital cheating department!

And that's because the Family Courts have largely given them the upper advantage in child custody and property allocations, and they are all too well aware of this sad fact going in!*


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

So there are some cases where men had two entire families going at the same time and who knows how many have actually been caught?

How many women are a juggling two families that have been caught anyway?


I'm sure there are women guilty of bigamy but aren't men more prone to it than women?

Men are pretty sneaky...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> So there are some cases where men had two entire families going at the same time and who knows how many have actually been caught?
> 
> How many women are a juggling two families that have been caught anyway?
> 
> ...


*Women, IMHO, are much more adept at juggling multi-lovers than they are at juggling multi-families!*


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Women, IMHO, are much more adept at juggling multi-lovers than they are at juggling multi-families!*


I might agree with the caveat that men have been known to keep a lot of lovers spinning at the same time as well.

But maybe men are better at keeping more than one family at the same time.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Just this thread?
> I assume this has to be sarcasm.


Wow.

An honest concession and you assume it's sarcasm. 

No wonder you thought she was deliberately trying to hurt people.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

Hmmmm well my limited experience says it equal- my mom cheated on my dad multiple times and my dad cheated on my mom multiple times.

I cheated on H once for a period of time and he cheated -to a lesser degree on me more than once but briefly. 

Ohhhhhh wait a minute! My grandmother cheated on my grandfather as well!!! To the point where she left the country to be with her om! so .....women slightly more.... in my family....


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You know, I didn't respond to your first post directed at me because it was so childishly stupid I didn't want to embarrass you. But if your reading comprehension is so poor and your memory is so lacking that you can't/don't see obvious trends over long periods of posting such as SSGI vs. POI and the difference between swinging a 2x4 (SSGI) at an OP and attacking commenters that are trying to help the OP (POI) then there's not much chance of you understanding anything I write in relation to historical posting. So that being said feel free to go **** yourself and block me as soon as you can figure out what I wrote.


Uh, actually you did respond to my first post, specifically going to the trouble to explain to me the difference, _at least as you see it._ so if anyone has a memory problem, it's you.

Now we've got a difference of opinion, but in expressing that difference. I havent called you or your post "so childishly stupid." With that on mind, you have zero grounds for criticizing POI or anyone else for being too harsh or snarky.

Now with regard to what one does or doesn't see, it's established that, snarky or not, POI wasnt intending to be hurtful and as apologized if she gave that impression. _Yet you assumed she was being sarcastic in her apology._ So again, if anybody was misinterpreting anything, clearly it was you. Having so badly misinterpreted her intent in her apology when I correctly understood it to be sincere (based in part on previous history which obviously I was paying more attention to than you since I'm the one who recognized the correct pattern), it naturally follows that it's far more likely that I have more correctly understood the intent of her other posts.

Of course, all this unpleasantness could have been avoided if you'd lighten up a bit. We can combine our viewpoints to be helpful, and still have some lightheartedness in the process.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rubix Cubed said:


> You still haven't blocked me , so obviously you didn't get it.


Not sure how not blocking equates to "not getting it."

I'm not the type of poster who feels a need to block anybody I see things differently from. Whatever disagreement we may have here, I've read enough of your posts to know they are often valuable. Why would I want to block that?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Women are sneakier than men. My cousin did not tell me that she and her husband have a friend friend who is one of the back up musicians in the Doobie Brothers. I will leave it at I had one hell of a fun evening as I travel back to the Nash Vegas area. Formerly wayward wife is one of the catalyst for this evening. Life is good music was good God is good! Peace I am cloud nine. Played The Doobie Brothers Cassettes until they were worn out during Desert Storm. Lots of memories tonight. First row seats rock.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Women are sneakier than men. My cousin did not tell me that she and her husband and her friend Who is one of the back up musicians in the Doobie Brothers. I will leave it at I had one hell of a fun evening as I travel back to the Nash Vegas area. Formerly wayward wife is one of the catalyst for this evening. Life is good music was good God is good! Peace I am cloud nine. Played The Doobie Brothers Cassettes until they were worn out during Desert Storm. Lots of memories tonight


I'm sure it was a Long Train Runnin', and it's good you were Rockin' Down the Highway while you Listen To The Music. And when you get back, home you find your favorite Black Water and it's just Another Park, Another Sunday. Yes, Jesus is Just Alright with me. Whoa, yeah!


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm sure it was a Long Train Runnin', and it's good you were Rockin' Down the Highway while you Listen To The Music. And when you get back, home you find your favorite Black Water and it's just Another Park, Another Sunday. Yes, Jesus is Just Alright with me. Whoa, yeah!


My cousins’ friend did the lead vocals on Long Train Running.....and yes they played all of the above.:smile2:
I am rolling back down the interstate listening to more Doobie music.....


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Women are sneakier than men. My cousin did not tell me that she and her husband and her friend Who is one of the back up musicians in the Doobie Brothers. I will leave it at I had one hell of a fun evening as I travel back to the Nash Vegas area. Formerly wayward wife is one of the catalyst for this evening. Life is good music was good God is good! Peace I am cloud nine. Played The Doobie Brothers Cassettes until they were worn out during Desert Storm. Lots of memories tonight


Glad you had a great time, I'm jealous.
White Sun has got to be one of my all-time favorite songs. 
Was Bill Payne playing with them this tour?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Glad you had a great time, I'm jealous.
> White Sun has got to be one of my all-time favorite songs.
> Was Bill Payne playing with them this tour?


Hell Yes! He played a mean keyboard. :smile2:


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Hell Yes! He played a mean keyboard. :smile2:


Bill Payne is the man on keys for sure. I got to briefly meet him and Sam Clayton at a show.
LittleFeat is one of my all time favorites. Seen them a dozen or so times, but I really wish I could've seen them with Lowell George.


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## Real talk (Apr 13, 2017)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


No I think men are more secure individuals so we're not always on the lookout for cues. 

Men as a whole also are a lot less messy so it's easier for the other person to not blow everything up unlike with women. For example if a man gets his mistress pregnant it's pretty much over, on the other hand the woman gets pregnant and she'll just raise it like it's the husbands.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

faithfulman said:


> Come the **** on.
> 
> Men cheat more. Way more.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that all these cheating men are gay?

Because if so many more men are cheating than women, does that mean all these men are cheating with other men?

Otherwise who are they cheating with???

Again, this likely comes down to who covers their tracks better and who does a better job of hiding in the shadows?

As I said a couple posts above, men have to work harder and put themselves out there more and be more aggressive to score.

So while the office douche may be out hitting on all the chicks and generally making a bore of himself, that sweet and demure receptionist sitting quietly at her desk just got done blowing some dude in the back storage room.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If a married man has sex with a single woman, only one of them is a cheat, which would skew the male-female figures.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> *Women are just as culpable, if not moreso, than their male counterparts in the marital cheating department!
> 
> And that's because the Family Courts have largely given them the upper advantage in child custody and property allocations, and they are all too well aware of this sad fact going in!*


So women cheat more because of family court? This makes no sense.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> So women cheat more because of family court? This makes no sense.


If i get what he's saying...forgoing personal responsibility and the willingness to profit from it, leads one to be more promiscuous. Makes sense to me.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > So women cheat more because of family court? This makes no sense.
> ...


I think we see what we want to see based on how much we have chosen to let our experiences define us.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

From those I have known, women were much better at hiding it.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I think we see what we want to see based on how much we have chosen to let our experiences define us.


Well, you have successfully described the human condition. 
It's called Suffering.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I think we see what we want to see based on how much we have chosen to let our experiences define us.
> ...


Eh... 

I was betrayed by a man. I don't assume men are worse than women. I was molested by a minister. I don't assume all ministers are sexual predators or suspect all ministers of being sexual predators. We choose how much we allow our experiences to color the way we view life objectively. No one is doomed to assuming anything about other groups of people and less they choose to.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think women are conditioned, over millennia, to 'accomplish' things in the background. This can be 'sneaky' to others. Sometimes what they are doing is bad, sometimes good. Whatever the value we place on the hidden action, they do it traditionally because they are not in a power position and otherwise wouldn't be able to do many of the things that they want in life.

To me, that's the basis of the sneaky/open distinction.

(Lucille Ball made an entire comedic career based on this one premise - she looked at her life as a housewife (the only choice allowed her) and then looked at her H's life, and decided that she wanted what he had. Society wouldn't let her do this, so she did it underhandedly, to hilarious effect.)

As for who cheats more, there are untold number of threads all over the intertubes that discuss this. I personally think that men cheat more, but women cheat more than we are conditioned to believe they do. As others here have noted, many men are champion sneaky, lying cheaters. So are many women.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think women are conditioned, over millennia, to 'accomplish' things in the background. This can be 'sneaky' to others. Sometimes what they are doing is bad, sometimes good. Whatever the value we place on the hidden action, they do it traditionally because they are not in a power position and otherwise wouldn't be able to do many of the things that they want in life.


You really nail it down here for me.
It's nature, it's not tradition. 
It's having to work inside a hierarchy. ( 'accomplish' things in the background.)
Yes, women are sneakier and more clandestine. It's been a matter of survival, not just what they want in life.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

alte Dame said:


> I think women are conditioned, over millennia, to 'accomplish' things in the background. This can be 'sneaky' to others. Sometimes what they are doing is bad, sometimes good. Whatever the value we place on the hidden action, they do it traditionally because they are not in a power position and otherwise wouldn't be able to do many of the things that they want in life.
> 
> To me, that's the basis of the sneaky/open distinction.
> 
> ...


Best post yet. I think the historical context is spot on.


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

Cheating is equal

Married men cheat, married women also.
Single men cheat with married women.
Single women cheat with married men.
GF cheat on BF, BF cheat on GF.

As far as who hides it better that is changing
also. With dating apps and different sites available 
everybody is paying attention now. Gut feelings 
and all. People notice a change in their SO behavior 
because they know that person better than anyone.

Digital tech. many people will say it makes it easier to
cheat, but it also makes it easier to get caught. 

The current generation is waiting later and later to get 
married. Several reasons they give include, becoming 
stable in their job. One reason also given is divorce and 
what they saw their parents go through. Many say they 
will never get married.The US birth rate is also dropping.

Regardless of what anyone says I think most people cheat 
for the same reasons. Their are many people who never 
cheat also. I have known of some people who just divorced.
No cheating involved, they just fell out of love. Most are still
friends today.

If you are being cheated on or have been cheated 
on. Hope Karma catches up with them and you get to see it.



This is just my viewpoint.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I feel like the successful hiding of cheating is more related to relationship circumstances than gender.

Those who are not the primary bread winner in their relationship tend to hide their cheating more because they have more to lose if they get caught.

Also typically the non-primary bread winner has more time available when the bread winner is focused on work... which makes an affair easier to hide by default.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> I don't know. My wife never actually hid her cheating so this is not a subject I have personal knowledge of.


So MattMatt -- your wife flaunted this in your face, or am I misreading this? She didn't hide it from anyone? Did all of your friends/family know of this? Just trying to get a read on what you meant that she didn't hide it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jlg07 said:


> So MattMatt -- your wife flaunted this in your face, or am I misreading this? She didn't hide it from anyone? Did all of your friends/family know of this? Just trying to get a read on what you meant that she didn't hide it.


His wife has some conditions that affect behavior.

No excuse as far as I'm concerned but she was as bold as daylight about her adultery.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> His wife has some conditions that affect behavior.
> 
> No excuse as far as I'm concerned but she was as bold as daylight about her adultery.


IIRC, his wife has Asperger's, yes? Agreed that is doesn't excuse anything. Sorry, but I don't think I've seen his thread on this -- I will have to go back and see if I can find it (unless someone can ping it to me...)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jlg07 said:


> IIRC, his wife has Asperger's, yes? Agreed that is doesn't excuse anything. Sorry, but I don't think I've seen his thread on this -- I will have to go back and see if I can find it (unless someone can ping it to me...)


I'm actually not sure he has a thread but I am certain he will answer you as soon as he can on this thread.


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## faithfulman (Jun 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> *So are you saying that all these cheating men are gay?
> 
> Because if so many more men are cheating than women, does that mean all these men are cheating with other men?*
> 
> ...


Dude, I am finding it hard to believe this is a serious reply. Please do better. 

Let's stick with heterosexual men for this example, though studies show that gay men have the highest rate of infidelity, followed by heterosexual couples, followed by lesbian couples

If a man who is married or otherwise, cheats on his wife or girlfriend - that doesn't mean the woman who he is engaging with outside of his relationship is married or in a relationship - you get that, right?

He may be trying to get with a single chick - or many many men go to prostitutes! 

Unless you think that a married man going to a prostitute is not cheating? 

How much you want to bet that men solicit prostitutes at a rate of many multiples that women do? 

Unless that isn't cheating to you. 

And guess what? I betcha male prostitutes see a lot more men, "hetero" and otherwise than they see women. 

Don't delude yourself. Men **** around at a greater rate than women. It's just that women do it more than people think, and they don't have to work as hard.

Class dismissed.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> So MattMatt -- your wife flaunted this in your face, or am I misreading this? She didn't hide it from anyone? Did all of your friends/family know of this? Just trying to get a read on what you meant that she didn't hide it.


Nobody else knew. She just explained to me that she was going to have an affair but that she loved me and would come back to me. It wasn't a case of flaunting. If she told me, then in her mind it wasn't cheating.

And that is what happened.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'm actually not sure he has a thread but I am certain he will answer you as soon as he can on this thread.


I have several threads all buried deep within the archives of TAM.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm not sure splitting things along the line of gender is the right approach. I'd say different types of cheaters are better liars than others. I was what most on here would consider a serial cheater, and honestly I was shocked that as a group its kind of considered a lifestyle. Not that I thought for a minute I was the only one, but I had no idea that many treat it like a secret club. There are online communities providing tips on how not to get caught. Also, all kinds of apps you can use. One mistress I had would sign up for evening classes after work. One was yoga, the other was belly dance. Her thinking was very much along the lines of how most believe men think when it came to adultery. She was not at all interested in wining and dining. We would meet up and she would change into yoga or belly dance clothes afterwards, so that there would be zero suspicion when she went home. She would go to the classes about half the time and even invited women from the classes to her home for get togethers. This way her husband was never suspicious, because these women knew her from class. But the classes were just a front, in the same way men use "working late", golf, etc. She only signed up for them as a space saver for whomever her lover would be at that time. Eventually she discarded me and went on to the next after a few months. We remained friends though. That was years ago, and she is still doing the same thing. Finding a new lover for a few months then another. Says she does it that way so she doesn't catch "feels". She has never been caught, and if you look at her facebook page its full of praise for her husband. People like this are the ones that will never get caught, and there are a lot of them out there.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

If I ever have to give a tangible illustration of confirmation bias, I will use this thread.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Nobody else knew. She just explained to me that she was going to have an affair but that she loved me and would come back to me. It wasn't a case of flaunting. If she told me, then in her mind it wasn't cheating.
> 
> And that is what happened.


Wow, not sure what to say. I obviously don't know the internal dynamics of your marriage, but why didn't you just tell her that if she has the affair, you wouldn't take her back? No need to come back? You didn't tell her that there would be consequences to her cheating? That you DIDN'T agree even if she told you? I don't see how you could have accepted that? MattMatt -- NOT trying to trigger or anything -- I'm just trying to understand this. 

How long was her affair?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jlg07 said:


> Wow, not sure what to say. I obviously don't know the internal dynamics of your marriage, but why didn't you just tell her that if she has the affair, you wouldn't take her back? No need to come back? You didn't tell her that there would be consequences to her cheating? That you DIDN'T agree even if she told you? I don't see how you could have accepted that? MattMatt -- NOT trying to trigger or anything -- I'm just trying to understand this.
> 
> How long was her affair?


Madness lurks where you are exploring....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> Wow, not sure what to say. I obviously don't know the internal dynamics of your marriage, but why didn't you just tell her that if she has the affair, you wouldn't take her back? No need to come back? You didn't tell her that there would be consequences to her cheating? That you DIDN'T agree even if she told you? I don't see how you could have accepted that? MattMatt -- NOT trying to trigger or anything -- I'm just trying to understand this.
> 
> How long was her affair?


Not long. A couple of weeks. 

There's a song that triggers me called "Back in Town" which basically tells the story of what happened.

At the time I was feeling Ill with glandular fever which developed into Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I was quite ill for a long time.

And she nursed me back to health.

Then came my stupid drunken revenge affair. Oddly enough my revenge affair hurt me more than her affair had done.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> So there are some cases where men had two entire families going at the same time and who knows how many have actually been caught?
> 
> How many women are a juggling two families that have been caught anyway?
> 
> ...


I’m not convinced that you are being serious dude but what the hell.
How would a woman hide the pregnancies while juggling two families?>


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I’m not convinced that you are being serious dude but what the hell.
> How would a woman hide the pregnancies while juggling two families?>


This is just an example of extremely ninja sneaking from men.

I can understand OP feeling the way he does but I remember stuff like this and also know how sneaky I am.

I haven't seen that one gender is more sneaky than another.

Women are probably better in some situations and vice versa.

Women are definitely better at having their husbands raise another man's child and men are certainly better at having an entirely different family on the side.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> This is just an example of extremely ninja sneaking from men.
> 
> I can understand OP feeling the way he does but I remember stuff like this and also know how sneaky I am.
> 
> ...


What I have noticed when it comes to beautiful women is that men find it difficult to imagine them doing anything as nasty as cheating.
Many men mistake beauty for goodness. This is foolish.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> What I have noticed when it comes to beautiful women is that men find it difficult to imagine them doing anything as nasty as cheating.
> Many men mistake beauty for goodness. This is foolish.


That and their brains have been short circuited by the rush.

I've seen women go pretty stupid over hot men as well.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> What I have noticed when it comes to beautiful women is that men find it difficult to imagine them doing anything as nasty as cheating.
> Many men mistake beauty for goodness. This is foolish.


I don't think beauty has anything to do with it. I think most of us men are just naive when it comes to assuming that women are capable of the same bad choices we make. I also think part of it is our own ego....depending on the guy. I remember the first time someone stepped out on me, I remember thinking. Why would she do that? I'm better than that guy? She said as much herself...but even though I was a serial myself in the past. I guess I am a hypocrite too. Because I had to let her go.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> 
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?



Are the scientists running out of [email protected] to research? The findings will surely advance humanity...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

To answer just the question, gender, culture, religion, really means nothing. Anyone can choose to cheat, anyone can choose not to cheat. In a nutshell that’s it. Some who cheat though, can become an even better person then when they cheated. It all depends on their core. I’ve met many here that became better after cheating.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

I couldn't hide much of anything from my husband. He was a serial cheater, way out of my league, so he knew all the tricks. Plus he had the advantage of today's modern technology which enabled him to hack into my email accounts, my digital journal, and my phone. He did most of his cheating back in the 90's when I was a busy stay at home mom of 3 children. I was absolutely clueless then about the internet and knew next to nothing about cell phones. 
I found out by accident about his cheating and believed him when he said it was one affair. He finally confessed years later in a moment of guilt that he cheated multiple times with multiple women. I'll never know the whole truth because I have no way of going back in time to investigate. 
So, no, it's not always women that are better at hiding affairs. I was a nervous wreck about getting caught and I'm sure it showed. My spouse was cool as a cucumber. I knew there were problems between us, but I never suspected a thing.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think women are better at hiding cheating. A few years ago I read about a survey of thousands of people who had actually cheated (and most were still doing so), and the outcome. 94% of women had gotten away with it to date, whereas only about 80% of men had escaped exposure. Overall, it seems that most cheaters do get away with it, if those survey stats are anywhere near accurate


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

re16 said:


> I feel like the successful hiding of cheating is more related to relationship circumstances than gender.
> 
> Those who are not the primary bread winner in their relationship tend to hide their cheating more because they have more to lose if they get caught.
> 
> Also typically the non-primary bread winner has more time available when the bread winner is focused on work... which makes an affair easier to hide by default.


Not really. I mean the non primary bread winner may cheat, get caught, get awarded alimony for life by the court. Some consequences.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I've learned women cheat as often as men. Ten years ago, I would have never dreamnt that could be true, but I was naive. I've also learned the reasons men cheat are far more short sighted and superficial (bouncy woman in tight dress) than women... There is always an escape hatch ready for these women and it will only open when the time is right.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

In my experience, yes.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don’t know who is better at hiding but one difference between men and women - where cheating is reported - that I noticed is that when a guy cheats, the message usually reads something like:
“I ****ed up”
And when a woman cheats, there’s often a very long preamble how the husband is just not there anymore/emotionally abusive plus 100 many more reasons and at the very end, “oh and by the by, I accidentally blew Dave from the post office”.
Obviously this is not representative of all cases and is also probably just a snapshot or coincidence so I’m not going to extrapolate that this is what happens the majority of the time. Plus the betrayed husband could well have been a piece of ****. And I still think that there are probably more men that cheat but some women seem to internalise or perceive the events differently.
The other thing I noticed is that when husband finds out his wife is cheating, more often than not, he perceives it as being mostly his fault.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t know who is better at hiding but one difference between men and women - where cheating is reported - that I noticed is that when a guy cheats, the message usually reads something like:
> “I ****ed up”
> And when a woman cheats, there’s often a very long preamble how the husband is just not there anymore/emotionally abusive plus 100 many more reasons and at the very end, “oh and by the by, I accidentally blew Dave from the post office”.
> Obviously this is not representative of all cases and is also probably just a snapshot or coincidence so I’m not going to extrapolate that this is what happens the majority of the time. Plus the betrayed husband could well have been a piece of ****. And I still think that there are probably more men that cheat but some women seem to internalise or perceive the events differently.
> ...


Funny, my wife blamed me as I was not there emotionally for her. Initially when discovering my FWW’s affair, I blamed myself. However, thanks to good MC and a few seasoned veterans on TAM, I realized it was 100% on her. Not me.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/bare-faced-cheat-women-better-hiding-infidelity-043250430.html
> 
> Came across this story. From my experience I say hell yes they are. I also feel women cheat as much as men. What say ye?


Doesn't the article essentially say men are socially inept on average more than women?


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I just flat out think women are far more sneaky and clever than men Will ever be.


I don't. I think men are gullible.



ConanHub said:


> So there are some cases where men had two entire families going at the same time and who knows how many have actually been caught?
> 
> How many women are a juggling two families that have been caught anyway?
> 
> ...


That's because women don't/can't juggle two families: They'll create one family and then pretend that family is yours when it really isn't and will happily let you die completely ignorant.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Have you discussed just how much effort she put into deceiving you and keeping her affair hidden?
> 
> She was committed to keeping it a secret and succeeded until you went alpha on her.


It was a workplace affair. You don't need much skill to hide those. Even if another colleague did notice something out of the blue odds are they will likely keep their mouth shut.



StillSearching said:


> I often find it fascinating how women will go around the world to get across the street.


You mind explaining where this came from.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

BruceBanner said:


> It was a workplace affair. You don't need much skill to hide those. Even if another colleague did notice something out of the blue odds are they will likely keep their mouth shut.
> 
> 
> 
> You mind explaining where this came from.


I find it fascinating that women will talk start on a subject, talk around the subject and the solution to their problem, get way emotional about it all, then 20 mins later get back to the solution to their problem and know just what to do as if they knew the answer was right in front of them, but had to go all the way around the world to get to what was right in front of them, across the street.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I think that concentrating on working to provide for a family makes a lot of men blind to what their wife is doing.

I always thought that my wife appreciated my hard work and sacrifice for the good of our family. I never imagined she would cheat - until she did.

I found out by accident. The red flags were there, I just ignored them or did not recognize the significance. I think that has been called Betrayal Blindness. Where you unconsciously refuse to see the truth because if you do, you will have to act on it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> I find it fascinating that women will talk start on a subject, talk around the subject and the solution to their problem, get way emotional about it all, then 20 mins later get back to the solution to their problem and know just what to do as if they knew the answer was right in front of them, but had to go all the way around the world to get to what was right in front of them, across the street.


I do this. Sometimes emotion clouds things. More often, though, it has to do with the way women are conditioned to communicate: less blunt, more "padded," less direct, more tactful and ladylike, etc.

Imagine a man saying: you blew that presentation buddy and a woman saying: you blew that presentation buddy

Unconsciously, even* I* think the guy was direct and the woman was a b*tch.

So we tiptoe and talk around because we aren't supposed to be....THAT way.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

red oak said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > That's the thing about anecdotes, and why I don't take a position on this.
> ...


I only know of 3 cases of infidelity in marriage, my ex and her two aunts. But it could be just that the sl*t gene runs high in that family.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I flat out do not believe ANYONE knows the ins and outs of 200 cases of infidelity. NO Sorry


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Study of people has been a life long passion consciously pursued *since I was 3*.


Okay


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

red oak said:


> Person why the attempt to Minimize people and experience so much?
> 
> I can understand people's doubts as most don't even have memories going back as far as mine, but to discount without background shows more about the individual discounting than the one trying to be discounted.
> 
> Study of people has been a life long passion consciously pursued since I was 3. *Before most even had self-awareness*.


I got no quams with you Red...but dam...I don't think so. 

At around 18 months old and later, children begin to develop reflective self-awareness, which is the next stage of bodily awareness and involves children recognizing themselves in reflections, mirrors, and pictures.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> I got no quams with you Red...but dam...I don't think so.
> 
> At around 18 months old and later, children begin to develop reflective self-awareness, which is the next stage of bodily awareness and involves children recognizing themselves in reflections, mirrors, and pictures.


Exactly. And, conversely, NO 3 year old has the capacity to begin a "lifelong passion."

No...they don't

You did NOT begin studying people at 3.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

red oak said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. And, conversely, NO 3 year old has the capacity to begin a "lifelong passion."
> ...


Actually, the phrase about fruit has nothing to do with this topic. It refers to identifying those of the faith.

Yes, all children imitate. But no 3 year old "makes the study of people a lifelong passion." They're just watching the bigger people to see what to do.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

This is interesting. I've been married twice and filed for divorce twice. Both wives cheated. 

I made a list of all the marriages within the last 15 years or so (friends, family and co-workers) that I personally know ended because of infidelity. 

Out of a total of 18 marriages, 14 of the wives were the cheaters. 
One husband was cheating but it was discovered that she was cheating on him at the same time.
One marriage ended when the wife declared she was a Lesbian and moved out to be with her lover. 
The last 2 marriages, the husband from one and the wife from another were cheating together. The spouses were faithful. 

This was just based on my personal experience and is in no way scientific. 

I'll never get married again! The risk far outweighs the return.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

If only we could just git rid of all them wimmins!

But sex.....


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> If only we could just git rid of all them wimmins!
> 
> But sex.....


Seriously! If I assumed infidelity was a gender thing like some of the men posting on this thread, I would be bitter and angry towards ALL men. In my lifetime, I have known way more men who cheat than women by a ratio of about 12:1. Many of those marriages did not end when the infidelity was found out but it was there nevertheless. 

This is one of those topics that no matter the research results (women and men cheat at about the same rates)..... Perception is reality.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Lila said:


> Seriously! If I assumed infidelity was a gender thing like some of the men posting on this thread, I would be bitter and angry towards ALL men. In my lifetime, I have known way more men who cheat than women by a ratio of about 12:1. Many of those marriages did not end when the infidelity was found out but it was there nevertheless.
> 
> This is one of those topics that no matter the research results (women and men cheat at about the same rates)..... Perception is reality.


I wasn't trying to make infidelity a gender thing and I don't think Red Oak was either. These are just our personal observations and experiences.

The reality is, society and women have been making this a gender thing for decades. The stereotypical cheating dog male, midlife crisis, affair with the secretary, abandoning family. If a man cheats, he's a pig. If a woman cheats, her husband must be a pig...etc. 

As men, we are raised to believe that we should respect and protect women, be chivalrous, and that women are the pinnacle of virtue. The truth is, women are just as bad, or good as men. Our beliefs in women have blinded us to the realities of their potential behavior. In short, most men don’t believe that their wives could ever do such things so we are not actively looking for inconsistencies and subtle changes in behavior. On the other hand, women have been raised to believe all of the cheating male stereotypes so they are much more aware and sensitive to any changes in their partners patterns and behavior. I would also assume there are some genetic/cave man/woman survival elements involved as well.

Even though this is changing, most men are still the majority bread winners within their household which is reflected in more tradition family roles. Most of their day can be accounted for and their patterns and behavior, more predictable. Any deviation from the norm is easily detected by the wife. As children become older, the traditional family role leave women with more free time. My XWW would go to the mall for hours, have lunch with girlfriends, the salon, go to the gym as well as the occasional “girls nights out”. This is a lot of unverified time that I dismissed as normal female behavior. It was actually a cover for her lascivious activities. 

I read a study a while back that found most women will not admit to cheating even in an anonymous study. In their mind, their affair held such a high level of significance that it was secretly justified. They considered their affair so special that it was different than all the other affairs, and wasn’t really considered cheating. My XWW wouldn’t admit to cheating even when confronted with mountains of irrefutable evidence.

It hasn’t been my experience but it makes sense that men and women would cheat in similar numbers. Women are just much more adapt and conditioned to detect deception and it is also much easier for them to deceive men.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> If only we could just git rid of all them wimmins!
> 
> But sex.....


They got dolls for that now...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I flat out do not believe ANYONE knows the ins and outs of 200 cases of infidelity. NO Sorry



There are definitely many ins and outs and ins and outs...and ins ins ins...  


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I remember things from that age too. I remember learning from what I saw. I remember learning certain things to.protect myself.

All of that is developmentally predictable behavior for a 3 year old. It is how children learn, and it has zero to do with abuse.

But no 3 year old on the planet ever has or ever will consciously say or think, "I shall now make the study of human behavior my life long passion."

No. They haven't, they don't, and they won't 

And it's fairly obvious to me that a traumatic childhood DOESN'T make one more emotionally intelligent.


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