# you did it for other men, but not me?



## nogutsnoglory

So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.

Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.

Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?

I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.

I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.

Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.

I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one. 

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.

I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.


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## treyvion

nogutsnoglory said:


> So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
> I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
> Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.
> 
> Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.
> 
> Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?
> 
> I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.


How would you feel as her "husband" that these things weren't done during her "wilder" years at all. That she felt something for him and wanted to impress this man and did these sexual acts or actions and treatments on this other man, that she won't do for you, because she doesn't think she has to or she doesn't feel that way. How the hell is that supposed to feel?



nogutsnoglory said:


> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.


Well she may have done it because it was fun and exciting at the time! Does this make a "husband" feel anybetter?



nogutsnoglory said:


> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.


Men were being decieved before even Jesus Christ walked the earth. I'm not sure whether it matters what she did or didn't do before she got with you, but if you know for a fact that these acts which she did freely and enjoyed before you, she can physically do them. So why cheat the husband? Some women marry a husband as a permenant crutch and he isn't even her top choice. She just finds a loyal and loving man and ensnares him.



nogutsnoglory said:


> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.


Just because she did it for him, she doesn't have to do it for you. Thats the logic.

Some of these women also do not shut off the life they were doing before the husband. The husband is provided a bare minimum to stay and they do these exciting things with others. 

Just great for your erections, huh?


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## nogutsnoglory

treyvion said:


> How would you feel as her "husband" that these things weren't done during her "wilder" years at all. That she felt something for him and wanted to impress this man and did these sexual acts or actions and treatments on this other man, that she won't do for you, because she doesn't think she has to or she doesn't feel that way. How the hell is that supposed to feel?
> 
> 
> 
> Well she may have done it because it was fun and exciting at the time! Does this make a "husband" feel anybetter?
> 
> 
> 
> Men were being decieved before even Jesus Christ walked the earth. I'm not sure whether it matters what she did or didn't do before she got with you, but if you know for a fact that these acts which she did freely and enjoyed before you, she can physically do them. So why cheat the husband? Some women marry a husband as a permenant crutch and he isn't even her top choice. She just finds a loyal and loving man and ensnares him.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because she did it for him, she doesn't have to do it for you. Thats the logic.
> 
> Some of these women also do not shut off the life they were doing before the husband. The husband is provided a bare minimum to stay and they do these exciting things with others.
> 
> Just great for your erections, huh?


WOW. Now I feel better. LOL
Good god, so she like it with them but not me and is now possibly still doing these things for OM just not me. 
Glad I did not read this while standing on a cliff.
But I agree with you. It is a fair response.


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## chillymorn

can't wait to hear the women respond to this.


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## usmarriedguy

What are we talking about here? Bringing another person into the picture or some particular sex act like anal? 

I can certainly see where someone might want to try a three way when they are young and in a non-committed relationship and then not want to bring that into a marriage.


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## techmom

Ok, here is another thread about how the hubby is missing out on all of the fun while the ex boyfriends got the action. Evidently your wife does not like what she did back then, she is more mature and her tastes probably changed. Being married is different from the boyfriend relationship, it is more experimental and during this process you are finding out what you like or don't like. When you are married, you should know what your tastes are.

I now know why women hide what they did before marriage since it becomes such a big issue of being denied. I was a virgin when I married and my hubby sometimes says he wishes I had more experience in sex, he wishes I was more open to trying more things he likes. Seems men are never completely satisfied either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CalBanker

techmom said:


> Seems men are never completely satisfied either way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I think that one can go both ways.


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## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> can't wait to hear the women respond to this.


LOL, me too. I am hoping I can see if there is some female logic used that shows consideration for the man. We shall see, I guess.


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## AnnieAsh

chillymorn said:


> can't wait to hear the women respond to this.


The problem with women answering this is that NOTHING we, as random women on the internet, can say to make a random man on the internet feel better. Our reasoning is often dismissed and disregarded. 

There is a few things I did with an ex that I don't do with my husband. He knows it. Why does he accept and understand it? Because that relationship was MESSED UP. It was sick and wrong toward the end and he wants no part of it. He encouraged me to break up with the guy.


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## usmarriedguy

I can see how you could make that inference but I think it is because you are looking at men as a collective instead of individuals. 

Some men seem to get freaked out by the knowledge that their wives had other experiences and some do not. The OP just seems to be experiencing a bit of jealousy.


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## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> What are we talking about here? Bringing another person into the picture or some particular sex act like anal?
> 
> I can certainly see where someone might want to try a three way when they are young and in a non-committed relationship and then not want to bring that into a marriage.


She was in a committed relationship of a long term boyfriend during the threesome with another woman and she enjoyed the experience and admits it.
She was also involved in other acts involving just her partner at the time, no threesome. She claims to have enjoyed them all, has no regrets, yet lied to me about ever doing these things. I understand but do not forgive the lie. I do not forgive liars.

My opinion on being lied to is I get to change my reaction to what it would have been had I been given the truth. I am not allowed this concession though. I am wrong to want these things, I am wrong to feel slighted. I just do not agree.


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## Code-Welder

"Does any of this make sense to anyone?"

If your wife had told you all about her past would you have married her? Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past? 

Perhaps your wife has fallen into the mode of your a husband and father? When kids come along much of the wild side is gone for ever. My DDW was that way till we got older and the kids were out of the house. Once married she looked at me as a husband and soon after a father, not as much as her lover. Other guys I have talked to have had the same thing happen.


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## the guy

I think some women have this thinking that their new husband has to see them as Innocent virgins or at least close to it with regards to having moral and character befitting a proper wife.

Unlike my self most guys don't want to marry a sl^t. Sure guys want that in bed but to openly come out and Tell their future husband about the three way or GB or circus clowns...well that just might pull the plug on the wedding or for that matter the marriage proposal.

I'm thinking some chicks want to find a husband and so they lie about this kind of thing, and even through the marriage the play it off as the prim and proper wife only to have these dirty girl fantasies.

And thats the scary thing here..some go though life lying to their husband while they have this need to be a dirty girl..."her little secret" and when this need grows no matter how great the husband some will go out side that marriage to meet that need.

I'm sure their some honest women and can discuss this kind of thing and even openly give "it" to their now husband...but the ones that aren't/don't well thats just wrong and it a shame they can't be open and get that dirty girl need meet by the man that loves them.

Hell I'm just a guy so what do I know about why some women put up this wall of misconception and stop sharing or should I say giving this kind of gift.

I do know one thing about Mrs. the guy.. I am averagely endowed and the only guys that *got* the back door were the smaller fellas. But I have been given this "gift" now and then.


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## nogutsnoglory

techmom said:


> Ok, here is another thread about how the hubby is missing out on all of the fun while the ex boyfriends got the action. Evidently your wife does not like what she did back then, she is more mature and her tastes probably changed. Being married is different from the boyfriend relationship, it is more experimental and during this process you are finding out what you like or don't like. When you are married, you should know what your tastes are.
> *She looks fondly on the experiences with no regret, she just will not replace the old boyfriend in the memory and insert the H and create a new memory with the H.*
> 
> I now know why women hide what they did before marriage since it becomes such a big issue of being denied. *This is not a justifiable reason.* I was a virgin when I married and my hubby sometimes says he wishes I had more experience in sex, he wishes I was more open to trying more things he likes. *Why are you not willing to try these things with him? Not to insult at all, but being a virgin prior to marriage and a bit of a prude after marriage is not the same thing. MAybe he is unreasonable, I am assuming he is not, if he is I apologize He sees these acts as a gift to him, special to him, and wants to experience things with his wife.* *Be careful, some will not stick around for vanilla sex their whole life. At some point you need to spice it up in a marriage.* Seems men are never completely satisfied either way.
> *No, I think we are satisfied when we get to have what we want sexually. We are not happy when we are denied access to doors that others have been allowed to open.*
> *And one of the reasons I opened this thread is a general lack of consideration for the male ego. Men are expected to learn to handle a woman's changing emotions, nut a male ego appears to not be of valid concern.**Woman (some) do not consider what they are telling the ego of a man when you say no to him for things you did for another, especially things you have claimed to have enjoyed doing.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usmarriedguy

Long term boyfriend and married are two different things. Obviously if she really still enjoyed those things she would still be interested in doing them. I guess she enjoyed them at the time and is now ready for a more conventional life.


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## Married but Happy

Likes change over time. And things you're willing to try may not be things you want to continue doing after experiencing them, if you don't care for them - especially things from long ago.

If it were something she _liked _doing within the last year or so with someone else, but won't with me, then perhaps there's an issue. Is it about me, or about her - or was it about him? 

On the other hand, what if she liked anal, but you find it disgusting? Are you obligated to indulge her, or not? I'd say no, and likewise, she has the right to say no. You don't have to like it, but your options are to accept it, try to persuade her to try it again, deny her something she wants (childish), or break up with her.


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## chillymorn

Code-Welder said:


> "Does any of this make sense to anyone?"
> 
> If your wife had told you all about her past would you have married her? Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past?
> 
> Perhaps your wife has fallen into the mode of your a husband and father? When kids come along much of the wild side is gone for ever. My DDW was that way till we got older and the kids were out of the house. Once married she looked at me as a husband and soon after a father, not as much as her lover. Other guys I have talked to have had the same thing happen.


so if your a convicted felon its ok to lie to your girl friend because they might not find you marriage material?


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## usmarriedguy

Reminds me of a movie I watched for a bit yesterday called "Chasing Amy"


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## Starstarfish

> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.


This makes it seem like the two thoughts aren't connected. That whether or not sure enjoyed it "back then" is irrelevant to whether or not she should feel a compulsion to do so again. 

Also when you start discussing sex about something someone is "getting" from someone else, rather than a mutual activity, that already sounds like a failure. Sex should be pursued as a mutual enjoyable thing, not because of the tenets of the "male ego." I mean if it's "just" a sex act, why the big deal?



> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.


So basically, if you ever tell a H about something you sexually did in the past, you are therefore compelled to do so in the future, because otherwise his ego will be bruised. That you need to give him all "sexual gifts" he desires, well - because he's a man, and that's what men require.


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## nogutsnoglory

AnnieAsh said:


> The problem with women answering this is that NOTHING we, as random women on the internet, can say to make a random man on the internet feel better. Our reasoning is often dismissed and disregarded.
> 
> There is a few things I did with an ex that I don't do with my husband. He knows it. Why does he accept and understand it? Because that relationship was MESSED UP. It was sick and wrong toward the end and he wants no part of it. He encouraged me to break up with the guy.


No I am looking for a response that also shows consideration for the man. Your situation is very clear and concise. I would not want anything from my wife that upset her due to past abuse. I am not trying to hurt her at all. 
In actuality, she is the one hurting me here. I just do not think woman (most) get it.
It hurts me she was willing to give a sexual gift to another person and not me.


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## the guy

AnnieAsh said:


> The problem with women answering this is that NOTHING we, as random women on the internet, can say to make a random man on the internet feel better. Our reasoning is often dismissed and disregarded.
> 
> There is a few things I did with an ex that I don't do with my husband. He knows it. Why does he accept and understand it? Because that relationship was MESSED UP. It was sick and wrong toward the end and he wants no part of it. He encouraged me to break up with the guy.


This a new perspective with regards to *not liking* what was happening in a past sexual act.

What I find interesting is OP mentioned that his old lady *liked* what was happening in her past sexual act...and even lied about such act before marriage.


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## Cosmos

chillymorn said:


> can't wait to hear the women respond to this.


Not a chance

I only visit threads like this to further my psych studies.


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## nogutsnoglory

Starstarfish said:


> This makes it seem like the two thoughts aren't connected. That whether or not sure enjoyed it "back then" is irrelevant to whether or not she should feel a compulsion to do so again.
> 
> Also when you start discussing sex about something someone is "getting" from someone else, rather than a mutual activity, that already sounds like a failure. Sex should be pursued as a mutual enjoyable thing, not because of the tenets of the "male ego." I mean if it's "just" a sex act, why the big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> So basically, if you ever tell a H about something you sexually did in the past, you are therefore compelled to do so in the future, because otherwise his ego will be bruised. That you need to give him all "sexual gifts" he desires, well - because he's a man, and that's what men require.


So, here we go. Many woman are not huge fans of a blow job, but they give them because it is an important thing to the H. Is this not the same thing. So the man is wrong for wanting the BJ if the wife is not happy to do it? He is not allowed to feel rejected, feel his needs are not met?
No I specifically said you enjoyed the past sex act with the other man and YES, if you enjoyed it then to the H it sounds like I am being rejected. You did it, you enjoyed it, you wont do it with me?


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## chillymorn

so if when I dated a girl and took her to fancy resteraunts,the opera,and bought her flowers once a week and then started dating my now wife but didn't do these things and she asked and I said no thats just who I am.But then later after being married for a period of time and she found out. I can just say that was in the past. and she would say COOL!
all the responces seem like a double standard to me!


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## nogutsnoglory

the guy said:


> This a new perspective with regards to *not liking* what was happening in a past sexual act.
> 
> What I find interesting is OP mentioned that his old lady *liked* what was happening in her past sexual act...and even lied about such act before marriage.


thank you for reading my post. I find it interesting (and hurtful) to be honest.


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## Thor

Noguts, I agree 100% with your sentiments. You do qualify that these are things she enjoyed, and they are not unreasonable within a marriage (except the 3 some). If she did not enjoy the acts or now finds them offensive, I agree she has the right to not do them now.

As my shrink says, maybe she just isn't that into you. I think it is more complex, and as others have suggested there is an element of her psychology. As a single she feels free, and is excited by doing wild stuff. Once married she believes she should abide by the mature married woman model, not the wild single girl model.

It is possible she selected you out of security, etc., and from this standpoint she isn't into you the way she was with previous bf's. On the other hand she did select you and you say there is love. So what is needed is to make her feel the desire to up her game.


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## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> I can see how you could make that inference but I think it is because you are looking at men as a collective instead of individuals.
> 
> Some men seem to get freaked out by the knowledge that their wives had other experiences and some do not. The OP just seems to be experiencing a bit of jealousy.


Absolutely, jealousy is a very natural response to a lover denying what was good for another lover. It makes me feel like I do not have the same appeal to her he did, sexually. Male ego.


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## Starstarfish

> So the man is wrong for wanting the BJ if the wife is not happy to do it? He is not allowed to feel rejected, feel his needs are not met?


No, you aren't wrong for having sexual desires. And you aren't wrong with feeling how that makes you feel. But that's an argument based on how it makes -you- as an individual feel, not one based on this general concept of "the male ego." 

The first part places the importance where it should be - on the feelings of a spouse and meeting their needs. The second sounds like men's sexual needs are more important because of Freudian psychological concepts that not everyone supports and believes in. It seems like its trying to utilize this other mysterious external force to back up the claim to "sexual gifts" - when really the only claim is desire.


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## Lordhavok

This thread is making me trigger


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## AnnieAsh

nogutsnoglory said:


> No I am looking for a response that also shows consideration for the man. Your situation is very clear and concise. I would not want anything from my wife that upset her due to past abuse. I am not trying to hurt her at all.
> In actuality, she is the one hurting me here. I just do not think woman (most) get it.
> It hurts me she was willing to give a sexual gift to another person and not me.


Do you want a gift given grudgingly? Given under duress? Or do you want it given freely and happily? There are SO many things that you two can share that are between the 2 of you, experiences that she could never share with an ex. 

Like I said before, nothing we say as women is acceptable to you. Nothing. You will feel what you feel, like you have been deprived and lied to. The only one who can answer your questions is your wife. 

My husband would tell you (about me) "she had anal sex with her ex but I guarantee she didn't have wild orgasms with him, or sneak giggling into a closet with him to have a quickie while the family gathered for thanksgiving."


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## usmarriedguy

Yes I suppose it is the same thing. Just because a woman enjoyed giving a guy a blow job in the past does not mean that she will enjoy it in the future or that she should feel obligated to give one. 

I am not saying that I could not relate to someone being disappointed because their wife does not want to give him a blow job I am just saying that that is her right to be comfortable with what she does and is giving or not. 

I would say that if she does not meet your needs than leave, otherwise get over it.


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## nogutsnoglory

Code-Welder said:


> "Does any of this make sense to anyone?"
> 
> If your wife had told you all about her past would you have married her? *should be my choice, shouldn't it?*Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past? *Both*
> 
> Perhaps your wife has fallen into the mode of your a husband and father? *Great, not acceptable. what is next, room mate? Am, I allowed to stop treating her like my girlfriend and just as mother and maid?*When kids come along much of the wild side is gone for ever. a*nd the husbands cheat, divorce, because of this, so maybe there should be a greater effort to not let this happen *My DDW was that way till we got older and the kids were out of the house. Once married she looked at me as a husband and soon after a father, not as much as her lover. Other guys I have talked to have had the same thing happen.


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## chillymorn

Starstarfish said:


> No, you aren't wrong for having sexual desires. And you aren't wrong with feeling how that makes you feel. But that's an argument based on how it makes -you- as an individual feel, not one based on this general concept of "the male ego."
> 
> The first part places the importance where it should be - on the feelings of a spouse and meeting their needs. The second sounds like men's sexual needs are more important because of Freudian psychological concepts that not everyone supports and believes in. It seems like its trying to utilize this other mysterious external force to back up the claim to "sexual gifts" - when really the only claim is desire.


???????? ok cloud it with physc talk and then it will go away.

the bottom line is he wants is and she lied about ever doing it and admitted to enjoying it .........but she won't do it for the person she loves and wants to be with the rest of her life.

yea he should be cool with that!


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## Starstarfish

> so if when I dated a girl and took her to fancy resteraunts,the opera,and bought her flowers once a week and then started dating my now wife but didn't do these things and she asked and I said no thats just who I am.But then later after being married for a period of time and she found out. I can just say that was in the past. and she would say COOL!
> all the responces seem like a double standard to me!


I have a situation like that. Husband went on grand Caribbean vacation with first wife, and then presented a similiar idea when we were first together about vacations, dating, etc. Then after we married did a 180 and said "that's not who I am, and further, you are morally wrong with having that expectation."

I didn't really see a lot of male sympathy for that situation in my personal story thread. It was all about how I was "trying to change him" and how he "slaves away to support a lifestyle I desire." There were pot shots about how women only care about money etc. So - while you understand how that's an equivalently bothering thing, most didn't seem to.


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## usmarriedguy

Well apparently it was not a requirement that she do this before he married her but now that he found out he expects it.


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## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes I suppose it is the same thing. Just because a woman enjoyed giving a guy a blow job in the past does not mean that she will enjoy it in the future or that she should feel obligated to give one.
> 
> I am not saying that I could not relate to someone being disappointed because their wife does not want to give him a blow job I am just saying that that is her right to be comfortable with what she does and is giving or not.
> 
> I would say that if she does not meet your needs than leave, otherwise get over it.


*I am not losing sleep here man, just trying to see some female logic at work. Obviously I can leave at any time. Not going to leave over this, I am just befuddled at the double standard. I see lots of woman throwing that term around all the time, I am just showing it works both ways.*


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## Starstarfish

> ???????? ok cloud it with physc talk and then it will go away.
> 
> the bottom line is he wants is and she lied about ever doing it and admitted to enjoying it .........but she won't do it for the person she loves and wants to be with the rest of her life.


I wasn't the one who started the psych talk about the male ego.

The bottom line is - his wife lied about her past and he has sexual expectations of her knowing about her past, but is disappointed she won't meet them. And wants the general population of women to explain his wife's behavior. 

The only person who can ultimately answer why there is that disconnect is his wife, the rest of us can only provide argument and conjecture.


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## the guy

Ya stay away from the treesome.

But geeze...alls you're asking for is a "gift"...its not like you want a gift every day!!!!!

Did she actually tell you "that was then, this is now"?


Whats sucks is Thor hit the nail on the head...sorry bro. But the last thing Thor mentioned is you can up raise your sex rank and "get her to up her game".

I liked that Thor...good post.


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## nogutsnoglory

Married but Happy said:


> Likes change over time. And things you're willing to try may not be things you want to continue doing after experiencing them, if you don't care for them - especially things from long ago.
> 
> If it were something she _liked _doing within the last year or so with someone else, but won't with me, then perhaps there's an issue. Is it about me, or about her - or was it about him?
> 
> On the other hand, what if she liked anal, but you find it disgusting? Are you obligated to indulge her, or not? I'd say no, and likewise, she has the right to say no. You don't have to like it, but your options are to accept it, try to persuade her to try it again, deny her something she wants (childish), or break up with her.


yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Bottom line is that when women do this it's because they just aren't as into their husband as they were the prior boyfriends. The husband is the provider they settled for. The ex is the bad boy they fantasize about.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> ???????? ok cloud it with physc talk and then it will go away.
> 
> the bottom line is he wants is and she lied about ever doing it and admitted to enjoying it .........but she won't do it for the person she loves and wants to be with the rest of her life.
> 
> yea he should be cool with that!


Thank you.


----------



## the guy

AnnieAsh said:


> Do you want a gift given grudgingly? Given under duress? Or do you want it given freely and happily? There are SO many things that you two can share that are between the 2 of you, experiences that she could never share with an ex.
> 
> Like I said before, nothing we say as women is acceptable to you. Nothing. You will feel what you feel, like you have been deprived and lied to. The only one who can answer your questions is your wife.
> 
> My husband would tell you (about me) "she had anal sex with her ex but I guarantee she didn't have wild orgasms with him, or sneak giggling into a closet with him to have a quickie while the family gathered for thanksgiving."


This is something worth repeating so yes the both of you do share other "gifts" in this marriage and after all she did except your hand in marriage...

So for what its worth I hope it makes you feel a little better.

I still struggle with the lie...she should get spanked for that.


----------



## AnnieAsh

WorkingOnMe said:


> Bottom line is that when women do this it's because they just aren't as into their husband as they were the prior boyfriends. The husband is the provider they settled for. The ex is the bad boy they fantasize about.


Please don't pigeonhole and insult all women. My husband blows my ex out of the water as a lover and a man. Which is why the ex is an ex and the husband is the husband.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> so if when I dated a girl and took her to fancy resteraunts,the opera,and bought her flowers once a week and then started dating my now wife but didn't do these things and she asked and I said no thats just who I am.But then later after being married for a period of time and she found out. I can just say that was in the past. and she would say COOL!
> all the responces seem like a double standard to me!


no man, she needs to feel like she is loved and special more than any other woman ever


----------



## AnnieAsh

the guy said:


> This is something worth repeating so yes the both of you do share other "gifts" in this marriage and after all she did except your hand in marriage...
> 
> So for what its worth I hope it makes you feel a little better.
> 
> I still struggle with the lie...she should get spanked for that.


A spanking is an example of something I've only given my husband. Takes a lot of trust to do that properly. :rofl:


----------



## chillymorn

WorkingOnMe said:


> Bottom line is that when women do this it's because they just aren't as into their husband as they were the prior boyfriends. The husband is the provider they settled for. The ex is the bad boy they fantasize about.


unfortunatly :iagree:

and its the same for the example I posted about when the man doesn't do things for his wife that he did for former girl friends!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

AnnieAsh said:


> My husband blows my ex out of the water as a lover and a man.


I judge people by their actions. Now in your case it sounds like it's something your husband doesn't want anyway so it's not the same issue. But these words above would simply not be believable if you were willing with the ex and not with him.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Thor said:


> Noguts, I agree 100% with your sentiments. You do qualify that these are things she enjoyed, and they are not unreasonable within a marriage (except the 3 some). If she did not enjoy the acts or now finds them offensive, I agree she has the right to not do them now.
> 
> As my shrink says, maybe she just isn't that into you. I think it is more complex, and as others have suggested there is an element of her psychology. As a single she feels free, and is excited by doing wild stuff. Once married she believes she should abide by the mature married woman model, not the wild single girl model.
> 
> It is possible she selected you out of security, etc., and from this standpoint she isn't into you the way she was with previous bf's. On the other hand she did select you and you say there is love. So what is needed is to make her feel the desire to up her game.


I was thinking of calling the old boyfriend and ask him, thanks though, I have no answer really, our sex life is not bad, but man, apparently it could be a lot better


----------



## 305rob305

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



Code-Welder said:


> "Does any of this make sense to anyone?"
> 
> If your wife had told you all about her past would you have married her? Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past?
> 
> Perhaps your wife has fallen into the mode of your a husband and father? When kids come along much of the wild side is gone for ever. My DDW was that way till we got older and the kids were out of the house. Once married she looked at me as a husband and soon after a father, not as much as her lover. Other guys I have talked to have had the same thing happen.


And this exactly why men cheat


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Starstarfish said:


> No, you aren't wrong for having sexual desires. And you aren't wrong with feeling how that makes you feel. But that's an argument based on how it makes -you- as an individual feel, not one based on this general concept of "the male ego."
> 
> The first part places the importance where it should be - on the feelings of a spouse and meeting their needs. The second sounds like men's sexual needs are more important because of Freudian psychological concepts that not everyone supports and believes in. It seems like its trying to utilize this other mysterious external force to back up the claim to "sexual gifts" - when really the only claim is desire.


How do we block those that think they are a shrink? I did come to TAM not Psych Central right? 
FYI- I placed the importance where I wanted it placed on MY thread. IMO, You do not have a good grasp of a male ego and that is clear in your response. stop trying to change what I am saying as it appears to be pretty clear to the many others here. Funny how you keep trying to change it to be something else. I certainly do not expect or want all to agree, but at least respect me enough to stop the psych analyzing. Without major back ground info and answers to many questions that have not been asked on here you are simply not qualified to analyze me this way. I think what I asked in my thread has been pretty clear, as are my responses.


----------



## the guy

nogutsnoglory said:


> no man, she needs to feel like she is loved and special more than any other woman ever


So I guess spanking her for lying is out of the question?

Speaking of maid...maybe she can dress up in a sexy maid outfit scrub the floor on her hands and knees while you watch.
Maybe that will boost your ego.

I'm wired different then most

Seriously...my point to this is maybe you guys can compromise and find a new "gift" she can give you?


----------



## chillymorn

I think the big mistake that a lot of men make is giving too much and EXPECTING reciprocation sexually.

seems like you got to play the game from the start!
1)don't try so hard to get in her pants ,play cool if it happens it happens.
2) no pu$$y licking until she sux some d!ck!
3) If your good with your d!ck she will want to sux it!
4)play as hard to get as she does only chase half way!
5) never tell her how much money you make.
6)never tell her how much money you make even after you marry.
7)if she doesn't like rule 5 or six then don't marry.
8)most likley you won't get married but you will be tagging a lot of pu$$y. win win win.

when you finaly find the one you want to settle down with beat yourself silly with a baseball bat. and knock some sence into yourself.

lol I ran with this a little the first 5 are good the rest are me just being an a$$.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> Well apparently it was not a requirement that she do this before he married her but now that he found out he expects it.


No she lied about it then, so I thought it was not something she was into. She had enough sex in her past that her lie made me assume I should not be pressing her for things she appears to not be interested in doing, this all changed now that I know what she did, how much, and that she enjoyed it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

WorkingOnMe said:


> I judge people by their actions. Now in your case it sounds like it's something your husband doesn't want anyway so it's not the same issue. But these words above would simply not be believable if you were willing with the ex and not with him.


Well by that logic, I had children with my husband. I didn't do that with ex. So clearly my husband is the better man. I would never have even considered bearing my ex's child. Ever.


----------



## 1812overture

I know next to nothing about my wife's sexual past, and only slightly more about her romantic past. I've never asked and I don't want to know -- for this reason. Now that I think about it, I knew about previous girlfriend's pasts, so perhaps I saw the possible future early on. 
Our lives are different from when we were dating, and I'm sure they will be different again in the future. But if I knew what the OP knows, I think it would bother me, and I'm a bit surprised women are upset even at the question.
"Love of my life, I have always wanted to try anal. I know you have done it in the past and enjoyed it. We don't have to make it a recurring thing, but I'd really like to experience it. Will you please do it with me?"
Is it unreasonable to ask for an explanation if the answer is "No"?


----------



## the guy

:whip:


nogutsnoglory said:


> How do we block those that think they are a shrink? I did come to TAM not Psych Central right?
> FYI- I placed the importance where I wanted it placed on MY thread. IMO, You do not have a good grasp of a male ego and that is clear in your response. stop trying to change what I am saying as it appears to be pretty clear to the many others here. Funny how you keep trying to change it to be something else. I certainly do not expect or want all to agree, but at least respect me enough to stop the psych analyzing. Without major back ground info and answers to many questions that have not been asked on here you are simply not qualified to analyze me this way. I think what I asked in my thread has been pretty clear, as are my responses.


OOUCH


----------



## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> I think the big mistake that a lot of men make is giving too much and EXPECTING reciprocation sexually.
> 
> seems like you got to play the game from the start!
> 1)don't try so hard to get in her pants ,play cool if it happens it happens.
> 2) no pu$$y licking until she sux some d!ck!
> 3) If your good with your d!ck she will want to sux it!
> 4)play as hard to get as she does only chase half way!
> 5) never tell her how much money you make.
> 6)never tell her how much money you make even after you marry.
> 7)if she doesn't like rule 5 or six then don't marry.
> 8)most likley you won't get married but you will be tagging a lot of pu$$y. win win win.
> 
> when you finaly find the one you want to settle down with beat yourself silly with a baseball bat. and knock some sence into yourself.
> 
> lol I ran with this a little the first 5 are good the rest are me just being an a$$.


Love it


----------



## WorkingOnMe

AnnieAsh said:


> Well by that logic, I had children with my husband. I didn't do that with ex. So clearly my husband is the better man. I would never have even considered bearing my ex's child. Ever.


Imagine if you were willing to have bareback unprotected sex with your ex but never would with your husband. How should a husband feel about that?


----------



## the guy

nogutsnoglory said:


> No she lied about it then, so I thought it was not something she was into. She had enough sex in her past that her lie made me assume I should not be pressing her for things she appears to not be interested in doing, this all changed now that I know what she did, how much, and that she enjoyed it.


which brings me to ask.

How in the hell did you find out about this?

What caused her to confess?


----------



## chillymorn

AnnieAsh said:


> Well by that logic, I had children with my husband. I didn't do that with ex. So clearly my husband is the better man. I would never have even considered bearing my ex's child. Ever.


could be because your husband was just a better provider.

and you realised that your x was just a good lay but most likley a poor provider. just sayin thats how it could look to a man!


----------



## nogutsnoglory

1812overture said:


> I know next to nothing about my wife's sexual past, and only slightly more about her romantic past. I've never asked and I don't want to know -- for this reason. Now that I think about it, I knew about previous girlfriend's pasts, so perhaps I saw the possible future early on.
> Our lives are different from when we were dating, and I'm sure they will be different again in the future. But if I knew what the OP knows, I think it would bother me, and I'm a bit surprised women are upset even at the question.
> "Love of my life, I have always wanted to try anal. I know you have done it in the past and enjoyed it. We don't have to make it a recurring thing, but I'd really like to experience it. Will you please do it with me?"
> Is it unreasonable to ask for an explanation if the answer is "No"?


kinda depends on the package being delivered.:rofl:

no way man, ask, and ask and ask.

I got a few things I do for her, I hate doing. Guess what.


----------



## ConanHub

Hey bro. I think it's kind of messed up that she lied first off, hopefully she is remorseful about that, secondly, if she liked certain things before you and they don't bother her now, of course she should do them with you!

There isn't even any question she should do things that she doesn't have anything against.
Did she say the only reason was she didn't want to do them with you was because it would be with you?

I would be pissed at being lied to and might be hurt that she wouldn't do things she says she enjoys but not with me, except the 3some thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## where_are_we

nogutsnoglory said:


> Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.


There is nothing I have done with/for a past partner that I am not willing to do with/for my husband. Unfortunately, he is the unwilling one. 

I think what I hear the OP being most hurt about is that "she did it, enjoyed it, and lied about it."

I also do not understand this logic. It is one thing to tell your partner that you did something, did not like it and refuse to do it again. But that is not the case here. She is withholding and I would want to know why also.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

nogutsnoglory said:


> kinda depends on the package being delivered.:rofl:


That's probably the one excuse that most men would find acceptable. If the ex was small and she enjoyed it, but the husband is huge and she's afraid of it.


----------



## chillymorn

WorkingOnMe said:


> That's probably the one excuse that most men would find acceptable. If the ex was small and she enjoyed it, but the husband is huge and she's afraid of it.


or total pkg he had game and the husband doesn't!


ouch!


----------



## nogutsnoglory

WorkingOnMe said:


> Imagine if you were willing to have bareback unprotected sex with your ex but never would with your husband. How should a husband feel about that?


Doing something stupid is not what I am asking her to do.


----------



## chillymorn

I think a lot of women will do things to snag a man that they don't really like.

oral, anal, frequent sex in general.

and as the relationship progresses they slowly #hit test you and if you let it slide they feel all right can scratch that off the list and then anytime you ask for it they play.........do i have too? I really don't like it and you take so long....bla,bla,bla.

if you let this slide you lost your chance to get it back.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

the guy said:


> which brings me to ask.
> 
> How in the hell did you find out about this?
> 
> What caused her to confess?


We had a few ****tails with her best girlfriend who she will tell anything to, and she slipped up. So I eventually got the full confession. Maybe


----------



## usmarriedguy

nogutsnoglory said:


> No she lied about it then, so I thought it was not something she was into. She had enough sex in her past that her lie made me assume I should not be pressing her for things she appears to not be interested in doing, this all changed now that I know what she did, how much, and that she enjoyed it.


My point is that if having sex with her and another woman where high on your priority list than you would have found a woman that met that need. 

You did not do that. You accepted her for what she said and let you think she is (the fact that she felt different in the past is irrelevant) 

Now even though I can understand the reason for being jealous it is still just jealousy. And you are trying to make it into a test of her loyalty and commitment to you.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> I think a lot of women will do things to snag a man that they don't really like.
> 
> oral, anal, frequent sex in general.
> 
> and as the relationship progresses they slowly #hit test you and if you let it slide they feel all right can scratch that off the list and then anytime you ask for it they play.........do i have too? I really don't like it and you take so long....bla,bla,bla.
> 
> if you let this slide you lost your chance to get it back.


No worries there. I will not just let it go until I get a good reason to.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

ConanHub said:


> Hey bro. I think it's kind of messed up that she lied first off, hopefully she is remorseful about that, secondly, if she liked certain things before you and they don't bother her now, of course she should do them with you!
> 
> There isn't even any question she should do things that she doesn't have anything against.
> Did she say the only reason was she didn't want to do them with you was because it would be with you?
> 
> I would be pissed at being lied to and might be hurt that she wouldn't do things she says she enjoys but not with me, except the 3some thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


pretty much sums it up


----------



## chillymorn

usmarriedguy said:


> My point is that if having sex with her and another woman where high on your priority list than you would have found a woman that met that need.
> 
> You did not do that. You accepted her for what she said and let you think she is (the fact that she felt different in the past is irrelevant)
> 
> Now even though I can understand the reason for being jealous it is still just jealousy. And you are trying to make it into a test of her loyalty and commitment to you.


are you a woman?

hmmm sound like one.

no I think she lied through her teeth and is a selfish lover and hes just now realising he was sold a false bill of sale!

and hes kinda pi$$ed about it.

seems fair enough to me.


----------



## where_are_we

chillymorn said:


> I think a lot of women will do things to snag a man that they don't really like.
> 
> oral, anal, frequent sex in general.
> 
> and as the relationship progresses they slowly #hit test you and if you let it slide they feel all right can scratch that off the list and then anytime you ask for it they play.........do i have too? I really don't like it and you take so long....bla,bla,bla.
> 
> if you let this slide you lost your chance to get it back.


I think you are right. And this is so wrong!

I think my husband did that to me. Stopped wanting it.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> My point is that if having sex with her and another woman where high on your priority list than you would have found a woman that met that need.
> 
> You did not do that. You accepted her for what she said and let you think she is (the fact that she felt different in the past is irrelevant)
> 
> Now even though I can understand the reason for being jealous it is still just jealousy. And you are trying to make it into a test of her loyalty and commitment to you.


That was not the only thing I found out about, anal, bondage, yep
Jealousy is healthy, normal and allowed, I will not just pretend to not be bothered because it is taboo to admit having jealousy


----------



## usmarriedguy

are you a woman?

hmmm sound like one.

No but I am not a dumb a$$ either.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

where_are_we said:


> There is nothing I have done with/for a past partner that I am not willing to do with/for my husband. Unfortunately, he is the unwilling one.
> 
> I think what I hear the OP being most hurt about is that "she did it, enjoyed it, and lied about it."
> 
> I also do not understand this logic. It is one thing to tell your partner that you did something, did not like it and refuse to do it again. But that is not the case here. She is withholding and I would want to know why also.


thank you


----------



## chillymorn

usmarriedguy said:


> are you a woman?
> 
> hmmm sound like one.
> 
> No but I am not a dumb a$$ either.


ok if you say so!!


----------



## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> are you a woman?
> 
> hmmm sound like one.
> 
> No but I am not a dumb a$$ either.


are you allowed to self proclaim that? Not sure on the rules here, judges..?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Opinions from women are clearly NOT wanted here or considered. OP, I'll be happy to delete my posts if they were not helpful to you. Good luck.


----------



## COGypsy

Dear Lord--how are we supposed to keep all of these things straight so that we can be absolutely positive that we are nothing but equitable to all of our partners? Maybe there's an app for that? I mean really--I bought my ex a car and a trip to Hawaii, but my BF gets anal. Should I call my ex and offer up my a$$ so that no one feels left out? Or should I be calling a travel agent and sending my BF over an ocean to be sure I've given him everything I ever gave my ex?


----------



## usmarriedguy

I agree AnnieAsh, I think that he was more interested in just having his righteous indignation confirmed.


----------



## lifeistooshort

usmarriedguy said:


> My point is that if having sex with her and another woman where high on your priority list than you would have found a woman that met that need.
> 
> You did not do that. You accepted her for what she said and let you think she is (the fact that she felt different in the past is irrelevant)
> 
> Now even though I can understand the reason for being jealous it is still just jealousy. And you are trying to make it into a test of her loyalty and commitment to you.




There's also the issue of some things you can do in relationships that don't much matter but are not good for marriages. I'm specifically talking third parties here.....my army first sergeant used to tell us if threesomes were something we wanted we should get that sh!t out of our system before we were married. The marital bond is special, so you worry about things that you didn't give a rats arse about with that schmoe you dated. Once again I'm talking about third parties here.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ntamph

I really wouldn't care about one sex act or two. That's nothing. Even if she liked it.

But equity does factor into marriage. There have been posters who posted about their partners never giving them sex more than once a week during their entire relationship (From first date to 20 years married with kids) but were crazy with someone else. There is something wrong with that.

I can't imagine a situation where I would find out that my GF did something with the ex, enjoyed it and now doesn't do it. I would be more considered with the overall effort that she puts into our sex life, not certain acts. But equity does play a part.


----------



## Fozzy

Suppose for a moment that there was something she used to do, but doesn't do anymore because she doesn't like it. Now suppose she goes ahead and does it for you. She's still not going to like it, and now YOU are the reason she doesn't like it, instead of some OTHER guy being the reason she doesn't like it. That's a lose in my book.


----------



## ConanHub

COGypsy said:


> Dear Lord--how are we supposed to keep all of these things straight so that we can be absolutely positive that we are nothing but equitable to all of our partners? Maybe there's an app for that? I mean really--I bought my ex a car and a trip to Hawaii, but my BF gets anal. Should I call my ex and offer up my a$$ so that no one feels left out? Or should I be calling a travel agent and sending my BF over an ocean to be sure I've given him everything I ever gave my ex?


I think your being a little off, or just joking.
If you enjoy being lied to by your SO about intimacy and then denied something you want that they had no problem giving someone else, then that's cool. OP and most others don't think being lied to is fun and being denied sexuality that others enjoyed for no good reason, yet, is much fun either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chillymorn

COGypsy said:


> Dear Lord--how are we supposed to keep all of these things straight so that we can be absolutely positive that we are nothing but equitable to all of our partners? Maybe there's an app for that? I mean really--I bought my ex a car and a trip to Hawaii, but my BF gets anal. Should I call my ex and offer up my a$$ so that no one feels left out? Or should I be calling a travel agent and sending my BF over an ocean to be sure I've given him everything I ever gave my ex?


really you need an app for that!

well I sux all my pervious boyfriends off but my husband who I love much more than any of them ......not not doing it.

yea an app would be great.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Fozzy said:


> Suppose for a moment that there was something she used to do, but doesn't do anymore because she doesn't like it. Now suppose she goes ahead and does it for you. She's still not going to like it, and now YOU are the reason she doesn't like it, instead of some OTHER guy being the reason she doesn't like it. That's a lose in my book.


I would note that the problem with your point is that, for the OP, it appears that his wife does not like it with him. 

So while your point is absolutely spot on, it still tells the OP something. While he may be the better man and preferable partner as a whole, it seems to be that she is just not as into him sexually as she was with past partners. Not necessarily a fun message, but one that he needs to deal with.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Imagine we were talking about kissing. Imagine I had a girlfriend and I loved kissing her. I'd kiss her for hours, making out on the couch all night. Then we break up, I meet someone else. She asks 'have you ever kissed anyone else'? and I say 'no I haven't'. Then we get married and I refuse to kiss her more than a peck here and there. She later finds out that I loved doing it with my ex girlfriend. How exactly is she supposed to feel about that.

When these conversations come up the women always go right to thinking that the example is talking about anal, which obviously can hurt sometimes and feelings about it change. But what if we're not talking about anal, we're talking about kissing or holding hands or talking about fantasies?


----------



## COGypsy

Hmmm.....does my mom love my sister more because she got a yoga bag for Christmas or does she love me more because I got a Crockpot?

Seriously--anytime you start keeping score in a relationship, you've already lost.


----------



## COGypsy

WorkingOnMe said:


> When these conversations come up the women always go right to thinking that the example is talking about anal, which obviously can hurt sometimes and feelings about it change. But what if we're not talking about anal, we're talking about kissing or holding hands or talking about fantasies?


What the OP has mentioned so far are anal, BDSM and threesomes.


----------



## karole

nogutsnoglory said:


> yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.


If she had never done this act with anyone, would it still be something you'd want or do you just want it because she did it with someone else?


----------



## chillymorn

Fozzy said:


> Suppose for a moment that there was something she used to do, but doesn't do anymore because she doesn't like it. Now suppose she goes ahead and does it for you. She's still not going to like it, and now YOU are the reason she doesn't like it, instead of some OTHER guy being the reason she doesn't like it. That's a lose in my book.


interesting spin but thats just what is it ......spin.

I by no means think someone should do things that they are not into. but by her own admission she said she enjoyed it so why the problem now I think at the minimum he deserves an explination even if its hurtfull to him so he can decide whats right for him.

maybe because he a poor lover or his thing is to small or she don't trust him enough, but with her keeping is a seceret and liying about it in the first place starts to make her untrustwothy.


----------



## chillymorn

COGypsy said:


> Hmmm.....does my mom love my sister more because she got a yoga bag for Christmas or does she love me more because I got a Crockpot?
> 
> Seriously--anytime you start keeping score in a relationship, you've already lost.


everybody in the world keeps score! its a tit for tat world.

how about if your mom bought your sister a car and gave you a crock pot.

all I know is everybody I know that say you shouldn't keep score are usually the one who keep score the most.


----------



## Lordhavok

Sorry Nogutsnoglory, your a victim of the classic bait and switch. My wife pulled the same crap. Promised me all kinds of sexual deviance and fantasies. And yeah, she had threesomes, more than once, but wont do it for me. She loves me to much, like thats supposed to clear everything up and make it better. I'm supposed to just drop all those ideas and be ok with it. She could do that to catch the attention of the ex boyfriend who treated her like a f*cktoy, I'm just the no account husband that takes care of her, treats her like a queen and gives her everything she wants. I'm not studly enough or alpha enough for the big show like the other looser was.


----------



## TiggyBlue

WorkingOnMe said:


> Imagine we were talking about kissing. Imagine I had a girlfriend and I loved kissing her. I'd kiss her for hours, making out on the couch all night. Then we break up, I meet someone else. She asks 'have you ever kissed anyone else'? and I say 'no I haven't'. Then we get married and I refuse to kiss her more than a peck here and there. She later finds out that I loved doing it with my ex girlfriend. How exactly is she supposed to feel about that.


If you weren't kissing the second girl and she had a problem with it then why marry you in the first place?
If someone showed either way from the beginning of the relationship what they would/wouldn't do (not talking about bait and switch in marriage) then you get to decide if what they offer in a relationship is enough for you or will satisfy you sexually.


----------



## chillymorn

TiggyBlue said:


> If you weren't kissing the second girl and she had a problem with it then why marry you in the first place?
> If someone showed either way from the beginning of the relationship what they would/wouldn't do (not talking about bait and switch in marriage) then you get to decide if what they offer in a relationship is enough for you or will satisfy you sexually.


your leaving out tthe lying.


----------



## COGypsy

chillymorn said:


> everybody in the world keeps score! its a tit for tat world.
> 
> how about if your mom bought your sister a car and gave you a crock pot.
> 
> all I know is everybody I know that say you shouldn't keep score are usually the one who keep score the most.


Funny, if any guy I was with tried to shame me into putting out some way or another just because I had done it with someone else before--scoring is definitely NOT what he'd be doing most with me!

Seriously though, there is no way this conversation doesn't make the one bringing these alleged wrongs to the table look like anything but a whiny little b!tch. Not a good look to start with and then you honestly expect some kind of equity sex to result?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

COGypsy said:


> Funny, if any guy I was with tried to shame me into putting out some way or another just because I had done it with someone else before--scoring is definitely NOT what he'd be doing most with me!
> 
> Seriously though, there is no way this conversation doesn't make the one bringing these alleged wrongs to the table look like anything but a whiny little b!tch. Not a good look to start with and then you honestly expect some kind of equity sex to result?


So in the OPs situation, where he finds out that she did these things after her friend blabs, asks to do one or more of them with her, and she says no. Is he a whiny little b!tch if he asks why? How about if he requests more than just a "because I don't want to"?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

COGypsy said:


> Funny, if any guy I was with tried to shame me into putting out some way or another just because I had done it with someone else before--scoring is definitely NOT what he'd be doing most with me!
> 
> Seriously though, there is no way this conversation doesn't make the one bringing these alleged wrongs to the table look like anything but a whiny little b!tch. Not a good look to start with and then you honestly expect some kind of equity sex to result?


Reality is, if you're dating a guy and you're truly into him more than any other guy, he likely doesn't have to worry about keeping score. If you're really into him, then he'd already be ahead. It's the guys who are behind who feel like they have to keep score, and honestly letting them go would be the best for them.


----------



## 1812overture

COGypsy said:


> Funny, if any guy I was with tried to shame me into putting out some way or another just because I had done it with someone else before--scoring is definitely NOT what he'd be doing most with me!


That's a fair reaction. But what if it's not shame. What if it's 'make my fantasy a reality'? And maybe it's the hood of the car at the lover's lane spot down the street from the high school where he never got any but heard others were doing it? And he knows you've had sex on the hood of a car in your past. 'Here we are, my HS reunion. Our way home takes us past that spot.' Will you? Or will you at least explain why not?

Taking the OP away, isn't the question in the title deserving of at least an answer?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Tall Average Guy said:


> So in the OPs situation, where he finds out that she did these things after her friend blabs, asks to do one or more of them with her, and she says no. Is he a whiny little b!tch if he asks why? How about if he requests more than just a "because I don't want to"?


Of course not, he can ask why. But if he doesn't like there answer and throws a tantrum he's a whiny little b!tch. And if all he gets is "because I don't want to", is b!tching more details out of her going to get the outcome he wants? People who aint interested aint interested.
Apparently I'm weird, if it aint given freely I don't want it , but that's just me. There's no bigger turnoff for me then an unenthusiastic partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size


----------



## Tall Average Guy

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course not, he can ask why. But if he doesn't like there answer and throws a tantrum he's a whiny little b!tch.
> I'm weird anyway, if it aint given freely I don't want it , but that's just me. There's no bigger turnoff for me then an unenthusiastic partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size




I completely agree. Tantrums make no sense, and I to would want a gift freely given. But the answer tells him something. The fact that there is no gift being given says something as well. He is likely not going to be happy about the message. Expecting that he should be or that it is no big deal is not reasonable.


----------



## chillymorn

the bottom line is there was a chance that the OP would not have married this lier if he know. that coupled with the fact that he might have realised that he was her fall back after getting the boot and that could have also been factored into his decission weather or not he wanted to marry her. But through her devious behaivor she trapped him into think she was someone else.


----------



## Code-Welder

chillymorn said:


> so if your a convicted felon its ok to lie to your girl friend because they might not find you marriage material?


Apples and Oranges, I was just curious as to what his answer might be. What happened in the past in a relationship is in the past, what if he had never found out? Life would likely be bliss.


----------



## Code-Welder

Thor said:


> As my shrink says, maybe she just isn't that into you.


Or maybe she is more into him and wants to stay that way. ?


----------



## Code-Welder

305rob305 said:


> And this exactly why men cheat


Good point, I was unfaithful, but them so was my wife. We worked through that part of our marriage and in the end it became stronger. Then as stated our sex life improved vastly once the kids were grown and out of the house. marriage has phases just like the rest of life.


----------



## Fozzy

chillymorn said:


> interesting spin but thats just what is it ......spin.
> 
> I by no means think someone should do things that they are not into. but by her own admission she said she enjoyed it so why the problem now I think at the minimum he deserves an explination even if its hurtfull to him so he can decide whats right for him.
> 
> maybe because he a poor lover or his thing is to small or she don't trust him enough, but with her keeping is a seceret and liying about it in the first place starts to make her untrustwothy.


A fair point. I guess it would depend on if she still was into it but just not with him, vs USED to be into it and isn't anymore.


----------



## 12345Person

If my husband did things for other women he wouldn't do for me, I'd go on strike.


----------



## chillymorn

Code-Welder said:


> Apples and Oranges, I was just curious as to what his answer might be. What happened in the past in a relationship is in the past, what if he had never found out? Life would likely be bliss.


carrots to pees. 

if the woman never finds out hes a convicte fellon then she would be in bliss also!


hmmm.


----------



## jaharthur

Personally, I think the posters throwing around the "whiny little b*tch" accusations should look in the mirror.

Name-calling and other personal attacks are the last resorts of people with nothing to say.


----------



## treyvion

Code-Welder said:


> Good point, I was unfaithful, but them so was my wife. We worked through that part of our marriage and in the end it became stronger. Then as stated our sex life improved vastly once the kids were grown and out of the house. marriage has phases just like the rest of life.


Proper sex and intimacy should have never been diminished, the love for family and closeness should have carried over and been maintained into the bed room. Children should never be a deterrent to an excellent sex life.

When you have kids, you obviously can't be doing it all over the house. But you can do it in your room, quickies at bed time even and if you want something drawn out rent a hotel room or a friends house while they are out of town.


----------



## jaharthur

Put aside the anal, BDSM and threesomes.

Let's say they talked before marriage and she told him that she either didn't do oral sex or hated it. He decides OK there's enough other good stuff here, let's get married anyway.

10 years later they have drinks with this girlfriend, and it comes out that his wife not only did oral sex but loved it, told her girlfriend and everybody else how great it was to take her sex partners to the stars with BJs. She loved the taste and the whole experience.

I'd say there would be plenty of reason for him to say, well, now that I know you like it, how about a little sumpin', and that's one of my fondest fantasies.

If the answer is simply "no," without any reason, I think he'd be well within the zone of reasonableness to say, "WTF?"


----------



## treyvion

Anonymous Person said:


> If my husband did things for other women he wouldn't do for me, I'd go on strike.


Right-on!


----------



## treyvion

jaharthur said:


> Put aside the anal, BDSM and threesomes.
> 
> Let's say they talked before marriage and she told him that she either didn't do oral sex or hated it. He decides OK there's enough other good stuff here, let's get married anyway.
> 
> 10 years later they have drinks with this girlfriend, and it comes out that his wife not only did oral sex but loved it, told her girlfriend and everybody else how great it was to take her sex partners to the stars with BJs. She loved the taste and the whole experience.
> 
> I'd say there would be plenty of reason for him to say, well, now that I know you like it, how about a little sumpin', and that's one of my fondest fantasies.
> 
> If the answer is simply "no," without any reason, I think he'd be well within the zone of reasonableness to say, "WTF?"


This is what we are saying happens. Makes me mad to hear you put it like this.


----------



## 12345Person

I don't know if my XH did sexual things with the OW he wouldn't do with me. But he was far more romantic with her and went out of his way for her.

Anyone else triggering? I swear this forum depresses the **** out of me


----------



## Code-Welder

chillymorn said:


> carrots to pees.
> 
> if the woman never finds out hes a convicte fellon then she would be in bliss also!
> 
> 
> hmmm.


You can get your felony record ex-sponged in most states, but not so with relationship history. I am not saying the she was right to lie, but what if he never found out. Would he still want to do the things he has expressed?


----------



## treyvion

Anonymous Person said:


> I don't know if my XH did sexual things with the OW he wouldn't do with me. But he was far more romantic with her and went out of his way for her.
> 
> Anyone else triggering? I swear this forum depresses the **** out of me


I'm done triggering. It lasted for many years, probably almost an addiction. Each time I thought I was out of the tunnel, it was amazing I was still in and still am. Today and the last few days I know I am a man. I don't care what anyone thinks. I like sex, I will have sex. I will have a great life and thats it. If someone wants to impede me or get in the way, I'm not going to deal with them. Hats off to all of you.


----------



## samyeagar

Anonymous Person said:


> I don't know if my XH did sexual things with the OW he wouldn't do with me. But he was far more romantic with her and went out of his way for her.
> 
> *Anyone else triggering?* I swear this forum depresses the **** out of me


Big time.


----------



## Code-Welder

JustPuzzled said:


> Not always!


True, well as long as they still live in the house. At least that was how our marriage worked.


----------



## COGypsy

1812overture said:


> That's a fair reaction. But what if it's not shame. What if it's 'make my fantasy a reality'? And maybe it's the hood of the car at the lover's lane spot down the street from the high school where he never got any but heard others were doing it? And he knows you've had sex on the hood of a car in your past. 'Here we are, my HS reunion. Our way home takes us past that spot.' Will you? Or will you at least explain why not?
> 
> Taking the OP away, isn't the question in the title deserving of at least an answer?


In that scenario, the short answer is that the risk I was willing to take in high school versus what I'm willing to risk now is very different. Public indecency charges at 18 are a fun story at the next kegger. Now, it could cost me my job. (Never mind that it's December and no way in hell am I getting naked in this weather!).

Personally, I don't discuss my past. For exactly this sort of reason. At my age and stage of life, the men I date can pretty much safely assume that I have a sexual history. But, I would say that ultimately, the question may be valid, it's the follow up that kills it all. You can ask why I don't want to have sex on a car hood on Lovers Lane. However, if your reply to my answer is "But you did it with Fred-Bob Smith!", then I've just lost my lady-boner for you.


----------



## LoveLonely

I am going to turn the tables here. I can't imagine enjoying something in my past that I enjoyed and not wanting to do it with my fiance. She deserves far better than that. If I felt that way, I would have to guess that there is something seriously wrong with me. Further, I can't imagine not sharing something so huge with my fiance. Again, if I was to do something like that, I would have to guess that there was something seriously wrong with me. It is one of those things that you might not think about until you are actually in the situation.

In fact, this is something that hits very close to home earlier in our relationship. We got over it. I CAN say one thing though: we are now doing MORE than either of us have ever done in their past. If my fiance would have maintained her initial stance, the relationship would have broken. There wasn't any twisting of arms or anything like that. Thousands upon thousands of hours of conversation trying to understand one another. When she thought about the tables being turned, she finally begin to understand. We both also understood that we are free individuals. She has just as much of a right to not do something as I have a right to want something. This is the kind of thing that has to be worked out before making a final commitment. Two honest good people that have to know whether or not they can provide what the other needs. And neither one of us would be able to live very well thinking the other had been involved in something enjoyable that they were unwilling to share. Others may disagree. And that is fine, as long as you have a partner that accepts it. It wouldn't be me.


----------



## Code-Welder

treyvion said:


> Proper sex and intimacy should have never been diminished, the love for family and closeness should have carried over and been maintained into the bed room. Children should never be a deterrent to an excellent sex life.
> 
> When you have kids, you obviously can't be doing it all over the house. But you can do it in your room, quickies at bed time even and if you want something drawn out rent a hotel room or a friends house while they are out of town.


I can say for the vast majority of the male friends I have when the kids come it does make having quality sex more difficult. Kids are a libido killer from the general conversation I have had with other guys as well as my DDW.


----------



## 1812overture

COGypsy said:


> In that scenario, the short answer is that the risk I was willing to take in high school versus what I'm willing to risk now is very different. Public indecency charges at 18 are a fun story at the next kegger. Now, it could cost me my job. (Never mind that it's December and no way in hell am I getting naked in this weather!).
> 
> Personally, I don't discuss my past. For exactly this sort of reason. At my age and stage of life, the men I date can pretty much safely assume that I have a sexual history. But, I would say that ultimately, the question may be valid, it's the follow up that kills it all. You can ask why I don't want to have sex on a car hood on Lovers Lane. However, if your reply to my answer is "But you did it with Fred-Bob Smith!", then I've just lost my lady-boner for you.


Your first paragraph has two (three!) completely acceptable explanations, which I think was part of the original question (now obscured by a bunch of insults). I am 100% in agreement that details of sexual history don't do anyone any good. (Don't ask, then no one has to lie.) And yes, that would also be a horrible reply to an explanation.

But. . . what do you think of no explanation, at all. Just no, especially after it comes out that a previous answer was misleading, at best? I agree it would be smart if someone in that situation STFU and maybe came up with another strategy, but IF your man knew you did something in your past and enjoyed it (even if it had never been discussed in the past) and IF he expressed an interest in that with you, surely you would at least try to explain?

This doesn't apply to me so much because I'm spending time in the sexless marriage threads (where no with no explanation is familiar), but you at least understand the quandary here, right?


----------



## where_are_we

She LIED about all of it. 

These are not things she disliked and now does not want to do. She liked them, but he is not worth it? As a couple these things should be open for discussion, I would think. 

I do not think this is about keeping score and being fair.


----------



## treyvion

where_are_we said:


> She LIED about all of it.
> 
> These are not things she disliked and now does not want to do. She liked them, but he is not worth it? As a couple these things should be open for discussion, I would think.
> 
> I do not think this is about keeping score and being fair.


Reality is not a bad thing at all. How can it feel good to be around someone who said you are not worthy. They say it with their priority of you, their actions, their body language, their eyes. It diminishes a person who cares what they think.


----------



## COGypsy

1812overture said:


> Your first paragraph has two (three!) completely acceptable explanations, which I think was part of the original question (now obscured by a bunch of insults). I am 100% in agreement that details of sexual history don't do anyone any good. (Don't ask, then no one has to lie.) And yes, that would also be a horrible reply to an explanation.
> 
> But. . . what do you think of no explanation, at all. Just no, especially after it comes out that a previous answer was misleading, at best? I agree it would be smart if someone in that situation STFU and maybe came up with another strategy, but IF your man knew you did something in your past and enjoyed it (even if it had never been discussed in the past) and IF he expressed an interest in that with you, surely you would at least try to explain?
> 
> This doesn't apply to me so much because I'm spending time in the sexless marriage threads (where no with no explanation is familiar), but you at least understand the quandary here, right?


Ultimately, I believe firmly that my body is my own. Sex is a vital part of a healthy and successful relationship, but sex on demand is not. So I personally would draw a pretty firm line in the sand on that issue. 

And really, I can think of a hundred things I loved, Loved, LOVED to do when I was younger that either do nothing to pique my interest today or are flat out non-starters. For example, I partied like crazy in Mexico most weekends all the way through high school. Wouldn't do that now for love or money. I also used to love roller skating. Went every chance I got and had a great time doing it. Now, the idea is "meh, I guess if you really, really want to" at best. 

Me saying no to either scenario doesn't mean I hate the guy trying to plan a date, it just means I'm not into those things anymore. End of story. I might offer the kind and amount of information in my examples, but can't really see a situation where I would feel the need to justify my response beyond that.


----------



## Vega

Tall Average Guy said:


> So in the OPs situation, where he finds out that she did these things after her friend blabs, asks to do one or more of them with her, and she says no. Is he a whiny little b!tch if he asks why? *How about if he requests more than just a "because I don't want to*"?


Because "Because I don't want to" SHOULD be a 'good enough' reason NOT to. 

But it seems that no matter WHAT her response to him would be, would not be "good enough" for HIM.


----------



## 12345Person

Imo people should just marry people they're compatible with.

Selfish people marrying selfish people.

Givers marrying givers.

Should sort out many problems.


----------



## MyTurn

The facts , as OP said, are:
he asked before M
she said no (lied)
OP found out by her BF (it slipped)
he confronted her , she admitted threesome ,bdsm,anal etc.
she also admitted she liked it
OP askes to do some of the above and is denied without a reason
OP forgives for the lies
OP feels hurt and sexualy less attractive

Isn't it obvious that OP has been cheated , deceived and betrayed?


----------



## 12345Person

MyTurn said:


> The facts , as OP said, are:
> he asked before M
> she said no (lied)
> OP found out by her BF (it slipped)
> he confronted her , she admitted threesome ,bdsm,anal etc.
> she also admitted she liked it
> OP askes to do some of the above and is denied without a reason
> OP forgives for the lies
> OP feels hurt and sexualy less attractive
> 
> Isn't it obvious that OP has been cheated , deceived and betrayed?


Yes, but there are some really idiotic people in the world.


----------



## Vega

1812overture said:


> That's a fair reaction. But what if it's not shame. What if it's 'make my fantasy a reality'? And maybe it's the hood of the car at the lover's lane spot down the street from the high school where he never got any but heard others were doing it? And he knows you've had sex on the hood of a car in your past. 'Here we are, my HS reunion. Our way home takes us past that spot.' Will you? Or will you at least explain why not?
> 
> Taking the OP away, *isn't the question in the title deserving of at least an answer*?


What kind of answer would be 'good enough'? Seems that the OP (among others) is already convinced that there is no 'good answer' that would "allow" the OP's partner off the hook. 

Saying, "You did it for HIM, why won't you do it for ME?" is a TRICK QUESTION.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Why is it a woman's obligation to pet and stroke a man's ego? I mean, honestly.

I understand retro-active jealousy. But "give me what you gave him" is just ridiculous. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are not entitled to any part of your wife's body or sexuality.


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> What kind of answer would be 'good enough'? Seems that the OP (among others) is already convinced that there is no 'good answer' that would "allow" the OP's partner off the hook.
> 
> Saying, "You did it for HIM, why won't you do it for ME?" is a TRICK QUESTION.


"I don't care if you did it with him or not. The fact is, that it's common knowledge that you did, and you actually like that stuff very much! Something you are willing to deny me of and lie about it."


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Vega said:


> What kind of answer would be 'good enough'? Seems that the OP (among others) is already convinced that there is no 'good answer' that would "allow" the OP's partner off the hook.
> 
> Saying, "You did it for HIM, why won't you do it for ME?" is a TRICK QUESTION.


Read the amazing defensive and accusatory logic of many on here and form your own answer.
If I knew a good answer I would respond to your Q. I do not see the logic. Many here seem to and I am amazed at it and it appears many others are too.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Why is it a woman's obligation to pet and stroke a man's ego? I mean, honestly.
> 
> I understand retro-active jealousy. But "give me what you gave him" is just ridiculous. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are not entitled to any part of your wife's body or sexuality.


Women have ego's too. Why is it a mans job to stroke a womans ego?


----------



## Theseus

Vega said:


> Because "Because I don't want to" SHOULD be a 'good enough' reason NOT to.


But that's only half the story. Why she wanted to with other men, but not her husband?

I can certainly understand his frustration. If you can't understand it, then it's a clear example of the difference between the thinking of many men vs. women. 

If my wife fulfilled some other man's every fantasy in the past, yet wouldn't do it for me, then I would tell her to go back to him, because she obviously loved him more than me.

I know anyone has the right to say "no". But the OP has the right to respond with "goodbye".


----------



## Faithful Wife

treyvion said:


> Women have ego's too. Why is it a mans job to stroke a womans ego?


Show me where *I* ever said it was.


----------



## where_are_we

Faithful Wife said:


> Why is it a woman's obligation to pet and stroke a man's ego? I mean, honestly.
> 
> I understand retro-active jealousy. But "give me what you gave him" is just ridiculous. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are not entitled to any part of your wife's body or sexuality.


I don't take this posters request as a "give me what you gave him."
I think your sexual preferences are what they are. They probably don't get narrower over time (unless there are issues) they should expand over time.

It cannot be equated with as one person mentioned, "I used to like to skate, but now I have no interest." 

I don't believe we should have to stroke their egos either. I am dealing with that in my own marriage when it comes to his sexual insecurities.


----------



## chillymorn

I would like to clarify.

all my responses are about normal(or what I would call normal) sex act

threesomes,public sex, are not what I call normal. threesome ruin many relationships and public sex and ruin your career. 

I'm thinking more like oral,anal,frequency.

with that said I also believe you shouldn't even broach the subject about previous sex partners. (unless you were a sex worker of some kind then I think its the sex workers duty to inform all partners
for safety concerns.

each and every relationship needs to grow and weed through whats acceptable to them as a couple. But in this case the pu$$y was out of the bag so to speak. and should be dealt with the honesty and love for the good of the present relationship.

as far as forcing someone to do anything sexually that they don't want to do. NO not for me because it just ruins it.

a blow job from someone who hates giving one sucks (no pun intended) but its usually a half a$$ed attempt and neither person is satisfied in the end.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Vega said:


> Because "Because I don't want to" SHOULD be a 'good enough' reason NOT to.


Well then I guess that seems to be the consensus answer for the women. I did not think asking for clarification as to why was prohibited, but if it is, so be it. Does not seem like much of a relationship when a man (or woman) can't even ask why or does not even deserve the courtesy of an explanation.



> But it seems that no matter WHAT her response to him would be, would not be "good enough" for HIM.


I tend to doubt that. The example COGypsy gave about not wanting outdoor sex seemed reasonable enough to me. But admitting that does not provide a blanket defense for not providing an explanation.

If a women (or man) does not want to explain, they should not be forced to. But this situation and how it is dealt with sends a message. And the idea that he (or she) needs to just like it and go merrily on their way with no effect on the relationship is unrealistic.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> Why is it a woman's obligation to pet and stroke a man's ego? I mean, honestly.
> 
> I understand retro-active jealousy. But "give me what you gave him" is just ridiculous. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are not entitled to any part of your wife's body or sexuality.


My question to you is why would I have to use entitlement to get my request met.
As far as stroking a mans ego goes, how is the male ego less important to one of your 1000 emotions as a woman?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thesus said: "I know anyone has the right to say "no". But the OP has the right to respond with "goodbye"."

That's true, he has the right to say "goodbye". But is he going to? No? He just wants to sulk and torture his wife? He has no right to do THAT. He CAN leave, however.


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts said: "As far as stroking a mans ego goes, how is the male ego less important to one of your 1000 emotions as a woman?"

Again, please show me where I ever said it was?


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts said: "My question to you is why would I have to use entitlement to get my request met."

As I said, you have no entitlement to her body. So what do you even mean by this?

All you are really saying is that your ego is hurt.

I'm sorry that it is.

But that's all that has happened here.

If you want to let this ruin your marriage, that's on you.


----------



## 12345Person

It's just about sex, but some people are too stupid to see that.

Romance
Sex
Emotional intimacy

^ 3 very important pillars in marriage. If my husband was more romantic, sexual, or emotionally intimate with his ex's then I would not like it. I would not settle for leftovers.

Stop wasting my life living in unnecessary situations that make me unhappy.


----------



## Fozzy

FrenchFry said:


> You are demanding logic for an individualized, emotional question.
> 
> What answer from your wife would satisfy you?


I think the truth would be an appropriate answer. Might not be a SATISFYING answer, but it's a good starting point to figure out if the relationship is worth a damn.

I don't think she's under any obligation to put out for the guy. I do think lying and following up with no response at all is a bad idea.


----------



## chillymorn

fw, dose compliment from your lover stroke your ego?

dose my a$$ look fat in these jeans. is a question to stroke their ego.

do you like when your lover notices your new hair cut.

every compliment is an ego stroke and in my opinion it both the wifes and husbands JOB to keep their spouces ego stroked!


----------



## chillymorn

Wow lot of pages real fast might be one of the fastest growing threads I've ever seen on here.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chilly....Care-taking his feelings is NOT part of my job.

Differentiation anyone?


----------



## 1812overture

Is this forum always so combative? I'm wondering if I am doomed to my current situation, and if I'm not, I'm seeking suggestions on what I can do to get out of it.
Does everything end up as an argument here?


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> chilly....Care-taking his feelings is NOT part of my job.
> 
> Differentiation anyone?


We worship each other, write poems for each other, and we sing about our love for each other.

Does that count?


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> My question to you is why would I have to use entitlement to get my request met.
> As far as stroking a mans ego goes, how is the male ego less important to one of your 1000 emotions as a woman?


The tone of the original question intimates that you feel that you should get the things that other men did with your wife. How is that not entitlement?

And my ego and emotions are mine to manage--why would my partner have any responsibility for managing them? If I don't feel secure and actualized without him, how could he magically impart those things for me?


----------



## nogutsnoglory

FrenchFry said:


> You are demanding logic for an individualized, emotional question.
> 
> What answer from your wife would satisfy you?


honestly, I am not sure, its why I came here to find reasoning that was logical, maybe I was missing something.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Show me where *I* ever said it was.


I'm not mad. If that's my woman it's my job to stroke her ego, especially if I plan on having her be nice to me and also provide sexual relations.

I was thinking of the analogy, but a woman does not have to stroke the males ego and can still claim all the benefits that someone in a good relationship should recieve.


----------



## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> chilly....Care-taking his feelings is NOT part of my job.
> 
> Differentiation anyone?


cool 

I think that for me its my and my wife job to keep the stroking going. make her feel good and makes me feel good.


maybe job isn't the correct term


----------



## nogutsnoglory

chillymorn said:


> fw, dose compliment from your lover stroke your ego?
> 
> dose my a$$ look fat in these jeans. is a question to stroke their ego.
> 
> do you like when your lover notices your new hair cut.
> 
> every compliment is an ego stroke and in my opinion it both the wifes and husbands JOB to keep their spouces ego stroked!


No real point chilly, couple of posters here have never been wrong


----------



## Faithful Wife

My husband and I constantly stroke each other, compliments, do nice things, do sexual things, etc. But these are NOT entitlements and they are not my "job". We chose each other because we both enjoy the way each other dishes out the lovins'.

IF WE DIDN'T....our only recourse is divorce.

Do you guys not get that?

Do you think you can "demand" a certain treatment?

Really?


----------



## nogutsnoglory

COGypsy said:


> The tone of the original question intimates that you feel that you should get the things that other men did with your wife. How is that not entitlement?
> 
> And my ego and emotions are mine to manage--why would my partner have any responsibility for managing them? If I don't feel secure and actualized without him, how could he magically impart those things for me?


I never claimed to be entitled those are your accusatory words.
I would expect to be given the same gifts from her she gave to others and enjoyed. IF she gave to them and did not enjoy and then I expected the gift anyway solely due to her doing it before, that would be entitlement. That would be wrong. That is not what we are talking about.


----------



## COGypsy

chillymorn said:


> cool
> 
> I think that for me its my and my wife job to keep the stroking going. make her feel good and makes me feel good.
> 
> 
> maybe job isn't the correct term


I would say that it's our "job" to be respectful and kind to our partners. However, in order to be a partner to anyone in the first place, you have to be a whole and secure person. If the position I have sex in or what somebody says my butt looks like in a pair of jeans are the foundation of my ego or self-esteem, who did who how back when is the least of the problems the relationship is going to have.


----------



## Faithful Wife

You do think you are entitled, noguts. Why not at least just admit that part?


----------



## treyvion

Fozzy said:


> I think the truth would be an appropriate answer. Might not be a SATISFYING answer, but it's a good starting point to figure out if the relationship is worth a damn.
> 
> I don't think she's under any obligation to put out for the guy. I do think lying and following up with no response at all is a bad idea.


She has no obligation to do anything. "This is what I use you for, can't you see it? If you have a problem, then leave. Otherwise I don't want to hear about it again"


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband and I constantly stroke each other, compliments, do nice things, do sexual things, etc. But these are NOT entitlements and they are not my "job". We chose each other because we both enjoy the way each other dishes out the lovins'.
> 
> IF WE DIDN'T....our only recourse is divorce.
> 
> Do you guys not get that?
> 
> Do you think you can "demand" a certain treatment?
> 
> Really?


Ego stroking is HUGE. It can raise the level and intensity of sex and life itself. Of course we are not entitled to it! If were lucky we have a partner who is masterful with it and likes to do it for us.


----------



## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband and I constantly stroke each other, compliments, do nice things, do sexual things, etc. But these are NOT entitlements and they are not my "job". We chose each other because we both enjoy the way each other dishes out the lovins'.
> 
> IF WE DIDN'T....our only recourse is divorce.
> 
> Do you guys not get that?
> 
> Do you think you can "demand" a certain treatment?
> 
> Really?


duh!

but in most long term relationships there is a up and down type of thing so its always good to keep things in check and sometime when on the down turn its advisable to ramp it up so to speak to get things back on track.

not demand but maybe a gentle reminder.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband and I constantly stroke each other, compliments, do nice things, do sexual things, etc. But these are NOT entitlements and they are not my "job". We chose each other because we both enjoy the way each other dishes out the lovins'.
> 
> IF WE DIDN'T....our only recourse is divorce.
> 
> Do you guys not get that?
> 
> Do you think you can "demand" a certain treatment?
> 
> Really?


WHy do people keep changing the dynamic of the conversation. I have made no demands, my question is why an dI haven not gotten a logical answer.
The things you say and do for your H and he does for you are ego stroking but you can call it what you want, I am not here for the semantics. It is your job to do so even if you do not realize it, as a man, I can tell you with no uncertainty, the majority of men will get their ego stroked either at home or elsewhere. Woman and their EA's are no different. An EA is a big ole ego stroke going on.


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> I never claimed to be entitled those are your accusatory words.
> I would expect to be given the same gifts from her she gave to others and enjoyed. IF she gave to them and did not enjoy and then I expected the gift anyway solely due to her doing it before, that would be entitlement. That would be wrong. That is not what we are talking about.


According to the Miriam Webster online dictionary, this is the definition of entitlement:

en·ti·tle·ment
noun \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\

: the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something

: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)

How is your situation not about entitlement? You think you deserve to be given the gift that others got.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Sorry, I disagree. It is not my job, it is a gift completely. 

I am in love and freely give those gifts.

If I didn't, he could try to talk to me, change me or whatever...but what he could NOT do is make any type of demands...because you don't demand a GIFT.


----------



## 12345Person

People that are entitled usually go for what they want and don't accept less.

I'll do whatever it takes to get what I want (with limitations, of course).


----------



## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry, I disagree. It is not my job, it is a gift completely.
> 
> I am in love and freely give those gifts.
> 
> If I didn't, he could try to talk to me, change me or whatever...but what he could NOT do is make any type of demands...because you don't demand a GIFT.


yuck


----------



## treyvion

COGypsy said:


> According to the Miriam Webster online dictionary, this is the definition of entitlement:
> 
> en·ti·tle·ment
> noun \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\
> 
> : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something
> 
> : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)
> 
> How is your situation not about entitlement? You think you deserve to be given the gift that others got.


I think if that is his wife, and he knows she actually ENJOYS those acts very much and he wants it, he should be entitled to it. For her to deny these things that he wants because she doesn't "feel" him as much as her ex bf(s) is not right, within a loving relationship. In power, she doesn't have to do a damn thing. Like I said "Well you see what I use you for. I don't have to do anything, just because I did it before doesn't mean I have to do it with you. I don't want to hear about it anymore"


----------



## Vega

Fozzy said:


> I think the truth would be an appropriate answer. Might not be a SATISFYING answer, but it's a good starting point to figure out if the relationship is worth a damn.
> 
> I don't think she's under any obligation to put out for the guy. I do think lying and following up with no response at all is a bad idea.


Did she actually LIE to him? Or did she simply not reveal something to him that she has a RIGHT to keep private? 

After all, she's not OBLIGATED to reveal EVERY DETAIL about her sexual past, especially if she doesn't want to be JUDGED for it. 

Vega


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts said: "It is your job to do so even if you do not realize it, as a man, I can tell you with no uncertainty, the majority of men will get their ego stroked either at home or elsewhere. Woman and their EA's are no different. An EA is a big ole ego stroke going on."

:rofl:

Do you think I rolled out of kindergarten yesterday?

It is NOT MY JOB.

It is my pleasure, and my choice, to GIFT my husband with loads of love, compliments, and to cherish him constantly.

It is not his job to "stroke me"....yet he honestly believes I AM beautiful, so he tells me so. He is honestly madly in love with me, so he tells me so.

The moment it becomes my "job", I will quit that job.

I'm sorry your ego is hurt. And you ARE entitled to your feelings as I have said many times.

But you are OWED nothing else from her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband and I constantly stroke each other, compliments, do nice things, do sexual things, etc. But these are NOT entitlements and they are not my "job". We chose each other because we both enjoy the way each other dishes out the lovins'.
> 
> IF WE DIDN'T....our only recourse is divorce.
> 
> Do you guys not get that?
> 
> Do you think you can "demand" a certain treatment?
> 
> Really?


I guess it really comes down to phrasing. I can certainly make those things a requirement for my spouse. If that is not something she is willing to do, then I will likely not keep her as my spouse. So is that "demanding" a certain treatment. I guess. Am I entitled to them? Not in the sense that I can make her, but yes in the sense that I deserve that and won't stick around if I don't get it.

So you can use loaded terms to make it sound unreasonable and unhealthy, but when you parse it, it not really all that different than what you are saying.


----------



## 12345Person

I am triggering!


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> You do think you are entitled, noguts. Why not at least just admit that part?


Listen, i know you want so badly for me to agree with you. 
I do not feel entitled, I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand. I know you want badly for me to limp through your trap door to be man hated all over the place, but I am genuine in asking why? If I felt entitled, I would leave. I am not a beta mess.
I am very confused as to the rejection, I am looking for answers.

Here try this. I am entitled...now go ahead and get it out of your system so the rest of us can talk.


----------



## 1812overture

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry, I disagree. It is not my job, it is a gift completely.
> 
> I am in love and freely give those gifts.
> 
> If I didn't, he could try to talk to me, change me or whatever...but what he could NOT do is make any type of demands...because you don't demand a GIFT.


But it wouldn't be wrong, would it, to ask for such and such as a "gift"? And if the answer is no, and in the past providing this gift was something you enjoyed, is it okay to be perplexed?

Hell, I'd like my wife to be interested in things that she used to enjoy with _me_. Or so she said. Absent that, I'd sure like to know why she isn't interested.


----------



## treyvion

nogutsnoglory said:


> Listen, i know you want so badly for me to agree with you.
> I do not feel entitled, I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand. I know you want badly for me to limp through your trap door to be man hated all over the place, but I am genuine in asking why? If I felt entitled, I would leave. I am not a beta mess.
> I am very confused as to the rejection, I am looking for answers.
> 
> Here try this. I am entitled...now go ahead and get it out of your system so the rest of us can talk.


You should feel entitled. You know she likes this action, yet you are lied to and denied. You cannot let this make you feel bad about yourself, this is her not you. And if she thinks she just got a convenience with the situation with you, then she has something else coming.


----------



## where_are_we

nogutsnoglory said:


> WHy do people keep changing the dynamic of the conversation. I have made no demands, my question is why an dI haven not gotten a logical answer.
> The things you say and do for your H and he does for you are ego stroking but you can call it what you want, I am not here for the semantics. It is your job to do so even if you do not realize it, as a man, I can tell you with no uncertainty, the majority of men will get their ego stroked either at home or elsewhere. Woman and their EA's are no different. An EA is a big ole ego stroke going on.


I agree that not everyone is understanding your question and concern that you brought here.

I do get it. I am female, so you do have a female response as you requested. I say you deserve an answer and the truth.

I don't know how the issue of entitlement and ego stroking ever came into play. I am so confused. :scratchhead:


----------



## LoveLonely

You ARE entitled. You are entitled to want whatever you want in a relationship. Your significant other and you don't agree on what that is. She is entitled to that too. You guys have a problem.


----------



## Faithful Wife

where_are_we....how about this from the first post?

"Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?"

That sounds like the OP is expecting to have his ego repaired, to me. And it also sounds like he is blaming his feelings on his wife.

Yet some men would NOT feel the same. So how is this supposed to be so cut and dry?


----------



## LostViking

WorkingOnMe said:


> Bottom line is that when women do this it's because they just aren't as into their husband as they were the prior boyfriends. The husband is the provider they settled for. The ex is the bad boy they fantasize about.


This is it in a nutshell. 

When a wife settles for the man who did not meet all of her criteria (Looks, personality, earning potential) completely, she feels entitled not to share her past sexual exploits with her husband. 

Women, in cluding theTAM Fembots, are not going to budge on what they will do or not do for their husband.

The one truth that women seem to ignore, is the simple fact that *a man feels loved by his wife when she has sex with him*. This is the one universal constant of the male species. Women, no matter how much scientific proof you give them, will never buy into this truth or understand it. 

A woman feels love for her husband for very different reasons (financial security, emotional support, being good fathers and providers) but yet they expect men to love them for those same reasons and treat sex as just and act and if they pick and choose then they are being cavemen. 

Aint gonna happen. 

When a woman enjoys doing things for prior boyfriends, but refuses to do those thing for her husband, she is in every sense telling her husband that she does not love him as much as she loved those men (even if she felt no love for them). 

It doesn't make sense, but that is how the male mind works.


----------



## 12345Person

LoveLonely said:


> You ARE entitled. You are entitled to want whatever you want in a relationship. Your significant other and you don't agree on what that is. She is entitled to that too. You guys have a problem.


Incompatibility.

And the OP will only resent his wife, and eventually hate her.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

COGypsy said:


> According to the Miriam Webster online dictionary, this is the definition of entitlement:
> 
> en·ti·tle·ment
> noun \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\
> 
> : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something
> 
> : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)
> 
> How is your situation not about entitlement? You think you deserve to be given the gift that others got.


ZZZZZZZZZ
She owes me nothing but a good reason. So yes, i am entitled to a reason, if I thought I was entitled to any sexual act then that would have had little to do with learning of her past lovers fortune, I would have felt entitled to it on my own doing long ago. This thread is about the why? Feel free to start another thread with faithful wife about how men are not entitled to anything and I will happily not join your discussion.


----------



## where_are_we

LoveLonely said:


> You ARE entitled. You are entitled to want whatever you want in a relationship. Your significant other and you don't agree on what that is. She is entitled to that too. You guys have a problem.


Was she also ENTITLED to lie about her sexuality?


----------



## Vega

Tall Average Guy said:


> Am I entitled to them? Not in the sense that I can make her, but yes in the sense that I *deserve* that and won't stick around if I don't get it.



Just curious but...what _exactly_ have you done that causes you to believe that you "deserve" any kind of sex from a partner?


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts said: "I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand."

I get that. But your wife isn't responsible for YOUR feelings. No one is.

I understand it hurts.

That still isn't your wife's fault.

Some men would NOT CARE.

So this isn't something that any and all men would feel or think. It is your personal demon. Which I'm not trying to minimize...yet it is still YOURS and yours alone to deal with.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

where_are_we said:


> I agree that not everyone is understanding your question and concern that you brought here.
> 
> I do get it. I am female, so you do have a female response as you requested. I say you deserve an answer and the truth.
> 
> I don't know how the issue of entitlement and ego stroking ever came into play. I am so confused. :scratchhead:


The haters arrived for the show, is what happened. i appreciate very much you considering my feelings on this matter.


----------



## LostViking

OP you and your wife have a serious problem here, not the least of which is her lying and covering up her past. 

I do think she snared you by misrepresenting who she was, and I think you failed by agreeing to marry her before you had all the facts and dug deeper about her sexual history.


----------



## Vega

LoveLonely said:


> You ARE entitled. You are entitled to want whatever you want in a relationship. Your significant other and you don't agree on what that is. She is entitled to that too. You guys have a problem.


The fact that ANY ONE of us believes that we're "entitled" to ANYTHING is the "root" of MOST of our problems.

Vega


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts said: "I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand."
> 
> I get that. But your wife isn't responsible for YOUR feelings. No one is.
> 
> I understand it hurts.
> 
> That still isn't your wife's fault.
> 
> Some men would NOT CARE.
> 
> So this isn't something that any and all men would feel or think. It is your personal demon. Which I'm not trying to minimize...yet it is still YOURS and yours alone to deal with.


You have been clearly trying your best to minimize how I feel.
Again i started the thread confused as to why. I am not confused about who's demon this is, but last I checked we are allowed to ask why from our spouse. My demon could be lifted with a logical answer to this question.


----------



## chillymorn

and the bus goes round and round, round and round


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts...Did you actually ask your wife and what did she say?


----------



## 12345Person

FrenchFry said:


> Call us haters if you want, but if my husband kissed all his partners before me and wouldn't kiss me, lied to me and wouldn't tell me why I wouldn't spend my time trying to figure out male logic and lecturing them on the importance of soothing female egos by kissing.
> 
> I'd pack up and find someone who wanted to kiss me.


Exactly. No point in accepting the leftovers.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Vega said:


> Just curious but...what _exactly_ have you done that causes you to believe that you "deserve" any kind of sex from a partner?


Actually, I was not referring to a particular sex act, but rather the laundry list of behaviors listed in the post I was responding to.

That being said, I deserve sex from my wife (in a general sense). If she disagreed, I would not stay married to her.


----------



## Vega

LostViking said:


> When a woman enjoys doing things for prior boyfriends, but refuses to do those thing for her husband, she is in every sense telling her husband that she does not love him as much as she loved those men (even if she felt no love for them).
> 
> It doesn't make sense, but that is how the male mind works.


Maybe it has NOTHING to do with her husband and EVERYTHING to do with the 'thing'. But the husband is making it about himself.


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> You have been clearly trying your best to minimize how I feel.
> Again i started the thread confused as to why. I am not confused about who's demon this is, but last I checked we are allowed to ask why from our spouse. My demon could be lifted with a logical answer to this question.


Except that the odds of getting a satisfying and logical answer to an emotional question--ANY emotional question--aren't great. And divining your wife's logic from anyone except her reduces the odds even more.


----------



## chillymorn

what these women are trying to say is you settled for her bull so its your fault.and if you don't like it leave her.


----------



## Vega

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, I was not referring to a particular sex act, but rather the laundry list of behaviors listed in the post I was responding to.
> 
> That being said, I deserve sex from my wife (in a general sense). If she disagreed, I would not stay married to her.


But you don't "deserve" sex from your wife WHEN ever and HOW ever YOU want. If you're behaving like a complete azz and THEN want sex from her, do you really believe you "deserve" to have it...JUST because YOU'LL feel better about being an azz?

Vega


----------



## nogutsnoglory

FrenchFry said:


> Call us haters if you want, but if my husband kissed all his partners before me and wouldn't kiss me, lied to me and wouldn't tell me why I wouldn't spend my time trying to figure out male logic and lecturing them on the importance of soothing female egos by kissing.
> 
> I'd pack up and find someone who wanted to kiss me.


So i should leave a faithful wife, mother of my 2 kids whom I have been with for 20 years because she will not give me a good answer to my question. Your right, no reason to come on a forum to try to figure this out, just give it all up.
Good advice


----------



## treyvion

COGypsy said:


> Except that the odds of getting a satisfying and logical answer to an emotional question--ANY emotional question--aren't great. And divining your wife's logic from anyone except her reduces the odds even more.


It would be very interesting to hear her logic.


----------



## COGypsy

And I have no idea what your back story is, but were you and your wife having sex before you found out about the gifts you weren't getting?


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts...does your wife know how deeply this is hurting you?


----------



## where_are_we

Faithful Wife said:


> where_are_we....how about this from the first post?
> 
> "Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?"
> 
> That sounds like the OP is expecting to have his ego repaired, to me. And it also sounds like he is blaming his feelings on his wife.
> 
> Yet some men would NOT feel the same. So how is this supposed to be so cut and dry?


I did not perceive that statement you quote as him needing his ego stroked. I read it that her words (lies) actions (lies and refusal to give him an answer) were hurtful to him.


----------



## 12345Person

nogutsnoglory said:


> So i should leave a faithful wife, mother of my 2 kids whom I have been with for 20 years because she will not give me a good answer to my question. Your right, no reason to come on a forum to try to figure this out, just give it all up.
> Good advice


Why not just have her read this thread?


----------



## Faithful Wife

where said: "I read it that her words (lies) actions (lies and refusal to give him an answer) were hurtful to him."

And I read that, too (that he is hurt).

But there is really nothing anyone can say or do about that. There is no way to "fix" that. His jealousy and hurt is his own.

Hey - I have it sometimes, too!

My husband has taken fabulous trips with previous girlfriends.

He has also been sexual with some of them in ways I will never get to have with him.

I am over it now, but in the past I've hurt about those things....yet, what good would it do to try to make that his problem?

I understand she lied.

Yet, I also know there are many fun things my husband has done with women before me I will never know about. He is not obligated to tell me. Is this lying? NO!

How is a person's private feelings of jealousy supposed to be something anyone else can help them with?


----------



## where_are_we

chillymorn said:


> what these women are trying to say is you settled for her bull so its your fault.and if you don't like it leave her.


On this board, everything is the posters fault, so I am always reminded of this every time I read here. 

But it's made me make changes that only I can make, because you will never change anyone else's actions.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> How is a person's private feelings of jealousy supposed to be something anyone else can help them with?


Because a healthy marriage is where partners are an open book, willing to share their most intimate details. To repair any damage, fix any cracks, and work to make each other secure in the relationship.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Vega said:


> But you don't "deserve" sex from your wife WHEN ever and HOW ever YOU want. If you're behaving like a complete azz and THEN want sex from her, do you really believe you "deserve" to have it...JUST because YOU'LL feel better about being an azz?
> 
> Vega


But I never said that. I don't behave like a complete @$$ (though I have my moments). Overall, I am a good man who deserves a wife that loves him and wants to have sex with him. Not sure how my having this requirement makes me an awful person.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous person....would that also apply to a psycho jealous spouse who accuses their spouse of cheating all the time because they have personal baggage with cheating?

(which I'm not saying applies to noguts...I am "just saying" that if you think "fixing" someone's jealousy issues is going to work, you will be wrong.)


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I agree that nobody is entitled to get what they want, and an ego stroke is not something you can demand. Even if you do demand it and get it, you don't accomplish the goal because it only works if it's truly a gift. Anyway, I stand by what I said before. I think you have to accept that she's not into you to the extent she was into previous men. You have to accept that you're who she settled for and then decide if that's a deal breaker for you or not. For me it would be a deal breaker because I just have to feel that I'm #1 and if I'm not then I have to find someone that I am #1 with.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anonymous person....would that also apply to a psycho jealous spouse who accuses their spouse of cheating all the time because they have personal baggage with cheating?
> 
> (which I'm not saying applies to noguts...I am "just saying" that if you think "fixing" someone's jealousy issues is going to work, you will be wrong.)


If you're married to a psychopath or a psychotic, then I suggest to divorce immediately.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

FrenchFry said:


> How long ago did you find out she lied to you? How long have you asked for an answer to this question? How long has she been dodging you?
> 
> I just don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to stroke your ego in a way they haven't in 20 years and it's either something you deal with on your own or leave them. Women aren't going to hold the answers here because it's your wife's individual answer you are looking for that she isn't giving out.
> 
> If you are cool with that, you are cool with it.


I agree with this. You know more about your relationship than when all this started. With that knowledge, what do you want to do? In the end, that is all you can do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous, that doesn't answer the question. A person can be unusually jealous without being a psychopath. So how is one supposed to "soothe" that person's feelings of jealousy if they are unfounded?


----------



## Vega

Tall Average Guy said:


> But I never said that. I don't behave like a complete @$$ (though I have my moments). Overall, I am a good man who deserves a wife that loves him and wants to have sex with him. Not sure how my having this requirement makes me an awful person.



My question is why do you believe you "deserve" this? I mean, there' a difference between WANTING these things and feeling "entitled" or "deserving" of them. 

I'm just curious as to WHY you think you "deserve" this.

Vega.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

COGypsy said:


> And I have no idea what your back story is, but were you and your wife having sex before you found out about the gifts you weren't getting?


Yes we have sex
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's not about deserving anything. It's about knowing where you stand in the pecking order of her men.


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> My question is why do you believe you "deserve" this? I mean, there' a difference between WANTING these things and feeling "entitled" or "deserving" of them.
> 
> I'm just curious as to WHY you think you "deserve" this.
> 
> Vega.


Because he knows he is more than worthy of it.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anonymous, that doesn't answer the question. A person can be unusually jealous without being a psychopath. So how is one supposed to "soothe" that person's feelings of jealousy if they are unfounded?


No jealousy is unfounded. It's there for a reason, whether you or the jealous person knows why. Irrational jealousy might be a symptom of mental disorders (BPD), or childhood traumas.

If you're married, and both of you are completely open about yourselves (past, present, future, goals, etc.), that's good. MC, IC, and working together is GOOD.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WOM - so how do you get to decide for some woman you don't know how SHE places men in her pecking order based on this one bit of evidence?

Oh that's right...because you have already assumed that her having certain sex acts with someone else "means something" and you know exactly what it "means" because there is a handbook where "meaning" has already been decided for every person and it is always the same.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts...does your wife know how deeply this is hurting you?[/
> Not the full extent. She knows I think her response was juvenile
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous said: "No jealousy is unfounded."

Sorry, I simply disagree. Some jealousy IS unfounded.

Some isn't.

If your spouse expects you to "fix" their feelings for them, this will never work.


----------



## 12345Person

Vega said:


> My question is why do you believe you "deserve" this? I mean, there' a difference between WANTING these things and feeling "entitled" or "deserving" of them.
> 
> I'm just curious as to WHY you think you "deserve" this.
> 
> Vega.


It's called FREEDOM.

Thousands of people just like him died to define their own existence. How dare you presume to know what he should think is important.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> WOM - so how do you get to decide for some woman you don't know how SHE places men in her pecking order based on this one bit of evidence?
> 
> Oh that's right...because you have already assumed that her having certain sex acts with someone else "means something" and you know exactly what it "means" because there is a handbook where "meaning" has already been decided for every person and it is always the same.



I'm sorry your husband isn't as into you as the women he travelled with. But I'm glad you're over it.


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> Yes we have sex
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then if things are generally good, what makes events from 20+ years ago such a mountain on the overall landscape?


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts...I am sorry if this was already this thread but what WAS her response?


----------



## Enginerd

You may never get a logical answer to your question because it requires an admission that some women lie about their sexual history to work around the sl*t vs. stud double standard. Most men apply this double standard in their personal lives and marry perceived "good girls" (I know there are exceptions.). The men eventually get hurt once they find out that their wife was actually a bad girl at one point , but now the wife is unwilling to be the husbands bad girl. Obviously, the husband starts to think he's not good enough in bed to trigger the bad girl. 

I think some women eventually believe their lie by ommision and can't deal with admiting the whole premise of the marriage was at least partially false in the eyes of the husband. I think this is especially true after motherhood when a woman's entire self image is often reborn into something they think their children will respect. It's as if that person never existed.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anonymous said: "No jealousy is unfounded."
> 
> Sorry, I simply disagree. Some jealousy IS unfounded.
> 
> Some isn't.
> 
> If your spouse expects you to "fix" their feelings for them, this will never work.


Irrational emotions are usually a result of mental disorders or childhood traumas. So, they're NOT unfounded and these issues can be addressed.

It's never about one person fixing another, it's about working together, and even going MC and/or IC.


----------



## Theseus

Faithful Wife said:


> WOM - so how do you get to decide for some woman you don't know how SHE places men in her pecking order based on this one bit of evidence?


When she has all kinds of kinky sex with an ex-boyfriend, but not her husband, that's not just "one bit", it's actually a huge mountain of evidence! It's not some tiny thing you can easily ignore.



> Oh that's right...because you have already assumed that her having certain sex acts with someone else "means something" and you know exactly what it "means" because there is a handbook where "meaning" has already been decided for every person and it is always the same.


Whatever manual your are using, sex *DOES* mean something. It means something pretty powerful, actually. That's pretty universal in every culture!


----------



## Faithful Wife

WOM said: "I'm sorry your husband isn't as into you as the women he travelled with. But I'm glad you're over it."

LOL!

Um, ok, right.

YOU get to decide who feels what about whom based on some simple info like what they did in their previous lives. Right. That makes sense.

But clearly, you think that a woman having any type of sex with any man before her husband is bad...oh wait, but only if it was sex her future husband wanted all to himself, right? She wasn't allowed a past because it "means" she doesn't love her future husband.

Nice.

I'm happy my husband had a wild and free past with many lovely women.

He is quite jealous of some of the things I've experienced, too.

Yet, our jealousy isn't each other's problem...it is just a sign that we are into each other now. But it means NOTHING more.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thesus: "Whatever manual your are using, sex DOES mean something."

Wow, really?

Because I know a whole lotta people who have happily had NSA sex.

So it ALWAYS means something, eh? And it ALWAYS means the same thing to everyone in all cases?

Can I please see the handbook?


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm sorry your husband isn't as into you as the women he travelled with. But I'm glad you're over it.


I wasn't OK with this part nor should she.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous said: "Irrational emotions are usually a result of mental disorders or childhood traumas. So, they're NOT unfounded and these issues can be addressed."

Yes, they can be addressed by the INDIVIDUAL with professional help.


----------



## Faithful Wife

trey...I don't even know what you mean by that.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anonymous said: "Irrational emotions are usually a result of mental disorders or childhood traumas. So, they're NOT unfounded and these issues can be addressed."
> 
> Yes, they can be addressed by the INDIVIDUAL with professional help.


One could easily see how addressing these issues together would make for a healthier, and more intimate relationship.

If I'm dealing with mental or physical issues I want my man to be there with me to get through. And I want to be there for him, too. 

I open up to him about anything and he's there for me.


----------



## COGypsy

But this is all about stuff that was a courtship, marriage, two kids and 20 some-odd years ago! Talk about comparing apples and oranges! I couldn't tell you why I did or didn't do half the stuff I did that long ago--not out of any deception or need to lie, but because it was 25 years ago. It's not like this was something she did 2 years ago....


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous, that is great. And we could hope people have great marriages like that.

Yet it is still no one else's obligation to "fix" your feelings, not your spouse, not your parents, not your kids, no one.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

COGypsy said:


> But this is all about stuff that was a courtship, marriage, two kids and 20 some-odd years ago! Talk about comparing apples and oranges! I couldn't tell you why I did or didn't do half the stuff I did that long ago--not out of any deception or need to lie, but because it was 25 years ago. It's not like this was something she did 2 years ago....


She did it then because she wanted to. No memory needed
Question still remains..you have done it enjoyed it, I would like to do it, why can't you do it with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anonymous, that is great. And we could hope people have great marriages like that.
> 
> Yet it is still no one else's obligation to "fix" your feelings, not your spouse, not your parents, not your kids, no one.


If you're doing it right, then the person with mental issues, their partner, and a personal counselor work together to address the issues and work on them.

You're not obligated to tell your spouse "I love you". You're not obligated to have sex with your spouse. You're not obligated to spend time with them.

However, these things are what CAN bring 2 people closer to each other. 

Is my spouse obligated to comfort me and care for me if I'm dealing with a physical illness? No, but the effects of him not doing so would leave me in depression because of blatant abandonment.


----------



## Cletus

nogutsnoglory said:


> She did it then because she wanted to. No memory needed
> Question still remains..you have done it enjoyed it, I would like to do it, why can't you do it with me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a fair question that deserves, no, ENTITLES you to a fair answer. 

The bigger question is will you accept what you're told even if you don't like the reasoning?


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Cletus said:


> That is a fair question that deserves, no, ENTITLES you to a fair answer.
> 
> The bigger question is will you accept what you're told even if you don't like the reasoning?


Need the answer to say one way or the other
I need to understand so I dont feel rejected for no good reason
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 12345Person

Why not simply show her the thread?!

Does she even know how bad you feel?


----------



## Enginerd

nogutsnoglory said:


> Need the answer to say one way or the other
> I need to understand so I dont feel rejected for no good reason
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's most likely about her current self image.


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> She did it then because she wanted to. No memory needed
> Question still remains..you have done it enjoyed it, I would like to do it, why can't you do it with me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My best guess? "Enjoyed" is more like "didn't hate" and the level of anticipatory enthusiasm to repeat the activity is minimal to non-existent. Like oysters. I've had them. They were fine, but I'd never order them on my own.

What are the odds you could just negotiate a one-time "stick it where you want" pass and be done with all of this angst going forward? Would that resolve it for you?


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts...No one can speak for your wife.

But I can say easily that just because I've done things in the past with previous partners that I haven't done with my husband, doesn't mean I was more into THEM than I am into him. 

It actually sounds like you are trying to use this information to leverage your wife into having a threesome with you and another woman. Is that the case?

Honest question (and you don't owe me anything, I'm just asking).


----------



## norajane

nogutsnoglory said:


> She did it then because she wanted to. No memory needed
> Question still remains..you have done it enjoyed it, I would like to do it, why can't you do it with me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because it's not a turn on anymore? 

Because she got it out of her system back then when she was in a more experimental phase? 

Because the thought of twisting and tormenting her body in those ways is not the least bit appealing to her 20-year-older body?


----------



## usmarriedguy

This is like a male insecurity parade. 
(my wife did other things in the past so I/He must not be man enough) 

All I can think is that guys around here need to have a bit more confidence in themselves.


----------



## ntamph

I think it would be much better (speaking for myself only) to focus on a woman's needs and to gain her trust. This is how you can build a really interesting and mutually satisfying sexual relationship.

You can't blackmail a woman into doing something or making her feel guilty. You need to show her that you are 100% committed to the relationship and that you really want to get to know her as a person because you love her. Then she can open up with what she wants.

I make it VERY obvious to my GF that I love her and want to know who she really is. It has paid off big time for me in and out of the bedroom.


----------



## Cletus

ntamph said:


> I think it would be much better (speaking for myself only) to focus on a woman's needs and to gain her trust. This is how you can build a really interesting and mutually satisfying sexual relationship.


And what if you wife's needs are missionary vanilla sex once a week, with no foreplay? Once she trusts you to provide this, you'll never get anything more. And no, that's not a hypothetical situation.

If you are going to expand your sexual repertoire with a spouse, focusing on her needs only works if her needs and yours have sufficient overlap to be mutually satisfying.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts...No one can speak for your wife.
> 
> *But I can say easily that just because I've done things in the past with previous partners that I haven't done with my husband, doesn't mean I was more into THEM than I am into him. *
> It actually sounds like you are trying to use this information to leverage your wife into having a threesome with you and another woman. Is that the case?
> 
> Honest question (and you don't owe me anything, I'm just asking).



I understand what you are saying here, but this is a very tricky one. How often have we seen on this site that enthusiasm, exploration, spiciness is both a barometer for, and a way to show just how into your partner you are?

If things are going south in the relationship, spicing it up in the bedroom is some of the first advice given. Beyond the obvious better sex, it shows a commitment and willingness to put effort into things.

With my STBW, she so desperately wanted to hold onto her lying, cheating, physically, verbally, emotionally abusive ex husband that she arranged multiple threesomes for his benefit, and engaged in other sex acts, all in an effort to keep him. She openly admits that she enjoyed it, but never wants to do them again. These are things that happened in the past five years.

Knowing all of that, she will never have to deal with a lying, cheating, abusive husband again, so won't be in a position to have to do those things to keep me. None of the things she did appeal to me at all, so I won't ever be asking for her to repeat them, but what if...what message am I to take from her if I said I really want to try this, and she says no? That she was willing to do them to keep a sack of sh1t, but not willing for our mutual pleasure, as she already said she liked it? How can I possibly twist that mentally into her being MORE attracted to me, MORE in love with me, wanting our relationship MORE than that one?

This issue goes far deeper than just the acts themselves.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts...No one can speak for your wife.
> 
> But I can say easily that just because I've done things in the past with previous partners that I haven't done with my husband, doesn't mean I was more into THEM than I am into him.
> 
> It actually sounds like you are trying to use this information to leverage your wife into having a threesome with you and another woman. Is that the case?
> 
> Honest question (and you don't owe me anything, I'm just asking).


actually nothing I have said sounded like that and the answer is no


----------



## ntamph

Cletus said:


> And what if you wife's needs are missionary vanilla sex once a week, with no foreplay? Once she trusts you to provide this, you'll never get anything more. And no, that's not a hypothetical situation.
> 
> If you are going to expand your sexual repertoire with a spouse, focusing on her needs only works if her needs and yours have sufficient overlap to be mutually satisfying.


I would never date, let only marry a woman who wanted only that.

If she pulled something like that after marriage but was different earlier then she is taking you for a ride.

I think a normal, healthy person would appreciate someone who wanted to understand them on a deep level and would want to become more intimate because of that in new, fun ways.

Not responding like that may be a sign of other, deeper issues.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

norajane said:


> Because it's not a turn on anymore?
> 
> Because she got it out of her system back then when she was in a more experimental phase?
> 
> Because the thought of twisting and tormenting her body in those ways is not the least bit appealing to her 20-year-older body?


We still experiment and she twists and turns just fine and my request was to get to experience something I thought was off limits for the last 20 years. I have since learned it is off limits for me


----------



## 12345Person

nogutsnoglory said:


> We still experiment and she twists and turns just fine and my request was to get to experience something I thought was off limits for the last 20 years. I have since learned it is off limits for me


Show her this thread.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

usmarriedguy said:


> This is like a male insecurity parade.
> (my wife did other things in the past so I/He must not be man enough)
> 
> All I can think is that guys around here need to have a bit more confidence in themselves.


yeah you are a pillar of strength, coming on a forum for people asking for some help and insulting them. You big strong man you.


----------



## samyeagar

samyeagar said:


> I understand what you are saying here, but this is a very tricky one. How often have we seen on this site that enthusiasm, exploration, spiciness is both a barometer for, and a way to show just how into your partner you are?
> 
> If things are going south in the relationship, spicing it up in the bedroom is some of the first advice given. Beyond the obvious better sex, it shows a commitment and willingness to put effort into things.
> 
> With my STBW, she so desperately wanted to hold onto her lying, cheating, physically, verbally, emotionally abusive ex husband that she arranged multiple threesomes for his benefit, and engaged in other sex acts, all in an effort to keep him. She openly admits that she enjoyed it, but never wants to do them again. These are things that happened in the past five years.
> 
> Knowing all of that, she will never have to deal with a lying, cheating, abusive husband again, so won't be in a position to have to do those things to keep me. None of the things she did appeal to me at all, so I won't ever be asking for her to repeat them, but what if...what message am I to take from her if I said I really want to try this, and she says no? That she was willing to do them to keep a sack of sh1t, but not willing for our mutual pleasure, as she already said she liked it? How can I possibly twist that mentally into her being MORE attracted to me, MORE in love with me, wanting our relationship MORE than that one?
> 
> This issue goes far deeper than just the acts themselves.


All that being said, about a year into our relationship, she started swallowing and according to her, she enjoys it very much and likes my taste. Swallowing is something that was previously very emphatically off the table, and according to her, something she had never done. I never mentioned it past when we were first talking about sex before we started dating. This was completely of her own accord.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Anonymous Person said:


> Show her this thread.


I do not wish to cast a ton of guilt on her. I never thought asking why would be so hard. I figured she had a good reason and was okay with that until the reason was nonsensical and now I am confused. I do not want to pressure her, I just wish I understood and this is why I am here to discuss the topic.


----------



## Vega

Anonymous Person said:


> It's called FREEDOM.
> 
> Thousands of people just like him died to define their own existence. How dare you presume to know what he should think is important.


LOL!! In THAT case, I "deserve" money FROM you, simply because *I* am "important". 

How dare ANYONE believe that they "deserve" sex FROM someone.

And yes, I DO have the right NOT to have sex, even if I'm MARRIED! That's *MY* "freedom".


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> LOL!! In THAT case, I "deserve" money FROM you, simply because *I* am "important".
> 
> *How dare ANYONE believe that they "deserve" sex FROM someone.
> 
> *
> And yes, I DO have the right NOT to have sex, even if I'm MARRIED! That's *MY* "freedom".


No one is saying he deserves sex, they are saying he deserves a real answer.


----------



## ntamph

samyeagar said:


> All that being said, about a year into our relationship, she started swallowing and according to her, she enjoys it very much and likes my taste. Swallowing is something that was previously very emphatically off the table, and according to her, something she had never done. I never mentioned it past when we were first talking about sex before we started dating. This was completely of her own accord.


Do you think it might be that it would remind her of him?

I don't know what to tell you samyeagar. I'm just happy that me and my GF are slowly but steadily reaching new levels of intimacy. That's what I see your fiance doing with you based on how you write about her.


----------



## 12345Person

nogutsnoglory said:


> I do not wish to cast a ton of guilt on her. I never thought asking why would be so hard. I figured she had a good reason and was okay with that until the reason was nonsensical and now I am confused. I do not want to pressure her, I just wish I understood and this is why I am here to discuss the topic.


But you are really hurt by it.

Time discuss this issue with her, and let her know how you really feel about the situation.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> No one is saying he deserves sex, they are saying he deserves a real answer.


I said he does deserve sex. Also if thete are sex acts that she enjoys thst she wont let him have, I think he deserves that too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

usmarriedguy said:


> This is like a male insecurity parade.
> (my wife did other things in the past so I/He must not be man enough)
> 
> All I can think is that guys around here need to have a bit more confidence in themselves.


 I am NOT insecure at all friend.
I think OP Had two valid concerns.
If you don't like being lied to For 20 years About your partners Sexual appetite, It doesn't mean you're insecure. Most people don't like being lied to By their spouse.
I suppose secure men like you Truly enjoy it When you find out your wife has been lying to you for a couple decades.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

ntamph said:


> Do you think it might be that it would remind her of him?
> 
> I don't know what to tell you samyeagar. I'm just happy that me and my GF are slowly but steadily reaching new levels of intimacy. That's what I see your fiance doing with you based on how you write about her.


I know oral was a huge deal and sore spot for her with her ex husband. It was a demand, and she did it resentfully far more often with him than she does me. That was part of what led her to do what she did with her step son, and with such great enthusiasm.

I do feel that the way she takes care of me in this way is a huge step for her, and is certainly her showing he just how much she loves me, and just how deep the intimacy goes

I do have a feeling that what she did with her step son was far more enthusiastic than anything she's done with me, but that was driven by hurt and anger more than anything else.


----------



## 12345Person

samyeagar said:


> I know oral was a huge deal and sore spot for her with her ex husband. It was a demand, and she did it resentfully far more often with him than she does me. That was part of what led her to do what she did with her step son, and with such great enthusiasm.
> 
> I do feel that the way she takes care of me in this way is a huge step for her, and is certainly her showing he just how much she loves me, and just how deep the intimacy goes
> 
> I do have a feeling that what she did with her step son was far more enthusiastic than anything she's done with me, but that was driven by hurt and anger more than anything else.


Her step-son? Do I even want to know?

No, I don't.


----------



## samyeagar

Anonymous Person said:


> Her step-son? Do I even want to know?
> 
> No, I don't.


I've discussed it on other threads here, but short version, she sucked and fvcked her step son in a car and told anyone who would listen as she knew it would get back to her ex husband, the step sons father, and she knew this was the one way she could hurt him the most...revenge. She's said if he had a brother, she'd have done him instead.


----------



## norajane

nogutsnoglory said:


> I do not wish to cast a ton of guilt on her. I never thought asking why would be so hard. *I figured she had a good reason and was okay with that until the reason was nonsensical and now I am confused.* I do not want to pressure her, I just wish I understood and this is why I am here to discuss the topic.


So she did tell you why, but you thought her answer was nonsensical. It probably doesn't seem nonsensical to her. 

None of us can give you any answer that will make you feel any better because our answers aren't based on her thoughts and feelings since we do not know her at all.


----------



## Vega

samyeagar said:


> No one is saying he deserves sex, they are saying he deserves a real answer.


"I don't want to" IS a "real" answer, despite what the OP---or anyone else for that matter--thinks.


----------



## GettingIt_2

nogutsnoglory said:


> I do not wish to cast a ton of guilt on her. I never thought asking why would be so hard. I figured she had a good reason and was okay with that until the reason was nonsensical and now I am confused. I do not want to pressure her, I just wish I understood and this is why I am here to discuss the topic.


Does she know that you consider her a liar and that you'll never forgive her?

Look, she has all the power here and you have none, period. If you're not liking her response, yet you don't want to divorce, perhaps some IC to help you cope with the blow to your ego is in order. Otherwise your marriage will suffer. If that's an acceptable outcome, then carry on.


----------



## Theseus

Vega said:


> "I don't want to" IS a "real" answer, despite what the OP---or anyone else for that matter--thinks.


It's certainly not a complete answer, because he already knows she doesn't want to do it. It doesn't address the more important question: WHY? 

Because she is not attracted to her husband or what? I think he deserves to know that much at least.


----------



## 12345Person

samyeagar said:


> I've discussed it on other threads here, but short version, she sucked and fvcked her step son in a car and told anyone who would listen as she knew it would get back to her ex husband, the step sons father, and she knew this was the one way she could hurt him the most...revenge. She's said if he had a brother, she'd have done him instead.


Triggers 

I'm feeling dizzy and I have a headache. I'm out.


----------



## norajane

Theseus said:


> It's certainly not a complete answer, because he already knows she doesn't want to do it. It doesn't address the more important question: WHY?
> 
> Because she is not attracted to her husband or what? I think he deserves to know that much at least.


They've been having sex for 20 years, and he said they were experimental together and her body twists and turns just fine - doesn't that show that she is attracted to him? 

Not wanting to have a threesome, bondage and anal doesn't negate 20 years of attraction and sex.


----------



## inarut

samyeagar said:


> I've discussed it on other threads here, but short version, she sucked and fvcked her step son in a car and told anyone who would listen as she knew it would get back to her ex husband, the step sons father, and she knew this was the one way she could hurt him the most...revenge. She's said if he had a brother, she'd have done him instead.


Holy ducking shot! I have read so many posts by you and have been seeing fantastic... Holy grail and unicorns .... Then a progressive undercurrent of insecurity ... No wonder why!!!! All I am going to say is .... Holy ducking **** again!!!!!! You better rethink this!! BAD , BAD news this fiancé of yours!...... End thread jack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

norajane said:


> Because it's not a turn on anymore?
> 
> Because she got it out of her system back then when she was in a more experimental phase?
> 
> Because the thought of twisting and tormenting her body in those ways is not the least bit appealing to her 20-year-older body?



This thread is a fascinating example of different groups of people (most men vs. women), not understanding why the other group thinks the way they do.

Here is an example that might help some people understand the man's perspective:

Think of sex here like riding an airplane. While the wife bought her ex-boyfriend a first class ticket for his journey, she gave her husband only a coach ticket. Yes, it's still an airplane, it still flies, and it will still get to the same destination, but if I were the husband, I think it would be natural to be resentful of the ex-boyfriend's preferential treatment.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Theseus said:


> This thread is a fascinating example of different groups of people (most men vs. women), not understanding why the other group thinks the way they do.
> 
> Here is an example that might help some people understand the man's perspective:
> 
> Think of sex like riding an airplane here. While the wife bought her ex-boyfriend a first class ticket for his journey, she gave her husband only a coach ticket. Yes, it's still an airplane, it still flies, and it will still get to the same destination, but if I were the husband, I think it would be natural to be resentful of the ex-boyfriend's preferential treatment.


In the meantime, women are like, "Dude! That other airplane crashed and burned, killing everyone on board! The one I'm flying my husband on will get him to his destination in one piece!"


----------



## samyeagar

inarut said:


> Holy ducking shot! I have read so many posts by you and have been seeing fantastic... Holy grail and unicorns .... Then a progressive undercurrent of insecurity ... No wonder why!!!! All I am going to say is .... Holy ducking **** again!!!!!! You better rethink this!! *BAD , BAD news this fiancé of yours*!...... End thread jack.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, not bad. Extremely hurt. People often do extreme things when they feel they have no other options to ease the pain.


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> No, not bad. Extremely hurt. People often do extreme things when they feel they have no other options to ease the pain.


Said it before and I'll say it again. I hope she is getting some mega serious counseling!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vega

Theseus said:


> It's certainly not a complete answer, because he already knows she doesn't want to do it. It doesn't address the more important question: WHY?
> 
> Because she is not attracted to her husband or what? I think he deserves to know that much at least.


While I agree that he "deserves" the TRUTH from her about how she feels about him, he does NOT "deserve" to get the kind of sex FROM her that she 'gave' to someone else. 

He may "deserve" her future but he doesn't "deserve" her past. And he doesn't get to drag the past into the present solely because he thinks he "deserves" something from her that she gave to someone else BEFORE him.

Sorry, but from my vantage point, it seems like the OP is using the fact that she omitted this "tasty tidbit" from him for good reason: Perhaps she already knew that if she revealed it to him, that he would do EXACTLY what he's doing. He would try to use it as 'leverage' to get her to do something that she DOES NOT WANT TO DO. 

My exh. used to smoke weed before we dated. I never smoked it before. But just because he did this with OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE ME, does that mean that I should feel jealous because he never did it with me? He may have decided along the way that even if he enjoyed it BACK THEN, that it simiply doesn't 'fit' into his lifestyle; into his impression of himself; of the person he WANTS to be. That was THEN; this is NOW, and he doesn't want the two to conflict.

And sex is no different. Just because a woman says 'yes' to a certain sexual activity YEARS AGO--even if she enjoyed it back then--doesn't mean she's interested in repeating history NOW. 

And THAT, should be 'good enough' for her husband, who supposedly loves HER. 

Vega


----------



## CuddleBug

I have never told my wifee juicy details of my past nor has she told me about hers.

I see it this way. The more sexual experiences you've had, the more you bring to the relationship / marriage. It builds and adds, more and more, not less.

There is no reason to tell your spouse you did this or that in the past and then not do those things with them. That is cruel and not loving.

You are to please your other half as yourself, so the more the merrier.

If wifee loves anal sex, then she rocks hubby's world with fantastic anal sex. If hubby loves oral sex, then he rocks wifee's world with mind blowing oral sex.


----------



## ConanHub

How Did this get About who deserves what? What they deserve is between them. I think the original problem Was lying about something she like sexually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

AnnieAsh said:


> Do you want a gift given grudgingly? Given under duress? Or do you want it given freely and happily? There are SO many things that you two can share that are between the 2 of you, experiences that she could never share with an ex.
> 
> Like I said before, nothing we say as women is acceptable to you. Nothing. You will feel what you feel, like you have been deprived and lied to. The only one who can answer your questions is your wife.
> 
> My husband would tell you (about me) "she had anal sex with her ex but I guarantee she didn't have wild orgasms with him, or sneak giggling into a closet with him to have a quickie while the family gathered for thanksgiving."


Do you and other contrary responders think it is possible that OP feels deprived and lied to, because he has been deprived and lied too?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Starstarfish said:


> I have a situation like that. Husband went on grand Caribbean vacation with first wife, and then presented a similiar idea when we were first together about vacations, dating, etc. Then after we married did a 180 and said "that's not who I am, and further, you are morally wrong with having that expectation."
> 
> I didn't really see a lot of male sympathy for that situation in my personal story thread. It was all about how I was "trying to change him" and how he "slaves away to support a lifestyle I desire." There were pot shots about how women only care about money etc. So - while you understand how that's an equivalently bothering thing, most didn't seem to.


What you are saying, essentially is that you do in fact sympathize with what he is saying. Why not say it more directly?


----------



## Thunder7

Wow. That was an exhausting read. I'm trying to gather thoughts to see if I can contribute in a constructive manner.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

nogutsnoglory said:


> No she lied about it then, so I thought it was not something she was into. She had enough sex in her past that her lie made me assume I should not be pressing her for things she appears to not be interested in doing, this all changed now that I know what she did, how much, and that she enjoyed it.


OP

Sounds like your main resentment is her lying about her past. Why did she say she lied and why does she say she doesn't want to do that stuff with you?


----------



## inarut

samyeagar said:


> No, not bad. Extremely hurt. People often do extreme things when they feel they have no other options to ease the pain.


One last comment and I'm done. What is she going to do the next time she feels Hurt?!' THere are numerous options to choose from she could have chosen otherwise. What will she choose next time? And the time after that .... And the time after that...etc.....don't minimize what she Actually chose to do because she "felt" she had no options. Her choice and belief of a lack of options is so telling...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vega

Maybe she "lied" because she knew the OP well enough that he would try to coerce her into doing something that she's NO LONGER INTERESTED IN DOING. 

Just because I USED to eat Spaghetti-O's--and LOVED them--doesn't mean I want to eat them NOW. 

The same 'rule' applies to sex. She may not want to engage in 'that' particular sexual activity no matter WHO she is married to. It has to do with the activity and NOT the person. But the OP is making it about the person (himself) and not about the activity. 

I'm sure there are things that the OP did BEFORE he met his wife, that, even though he enjoyed it at the moment, he wouldn't want to do it NOW. 

Vega


----------



## Fozzy

Vega said:


> Maybe she "lied" because she knew the OP well enough that he would try to coerce her into doing something that she's NO LONGER INTERESTED IN DOING.
> 
> Just because I USED to eat Spaghetti-O's--and LOVED them--doesn't mean I want to eat them NOW.
> 
> The same 'rule' applies to sex. She may not want to engage in 'that' particular sexual activity no matter WHO she is married to. It has to do with the activity and NOT the person. But the OP is making it about the person (himself) and not about the activity.
> 
> *I'm sure there are things that the OP did BEFORE he met his wife, that, even though he enjoyed it at the moment, he wouldn't want to do it NOW.*
> 
> Vega


You're probably right. I'm sure he would also be happy to explain to her why that's the case.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Lordhavok said:


> Sorry Nogutsnoglory, your a victim of the classic bait and switch. My wife pulled the same crap. Promised me all kinds of sexual deviance and fantasies. And yeah, she had threesomes, more than once, but wont do it for me. She loves me to much, like thats supposed to clear everything up and make it better. I'm supposed to just drop all those ideas and be ok with it. She could do that to catch the attention of the ex boyfriend who treated her like a f*cktoy, I'm just the no account husband that takes care of her, treats her like a queen and gives her everything she wants. I'm not studly enough or alpha enough for the big show like the other looser was.


Sorry I'm going to have to call foul on this point,even though I am empathetic with the OP.
LORDHAVOK do want an open marriage? Threesomes are by definition things that occurr in open marriages. Regardless of her past is that what YOU want now?


----------



## techmom

Bottom line is this, she omitted some parts of her sexual history. The op found out about what she omitted, now he wants the same thing that was omitted. She said no, he asked why. She gave a reason for why she doesn't want to do it with him. He claims that the reason was nonsensical. Yet throughout this long a$$ thread he did not say what her reason was, but he is asking us females to give him our OPINION OF WHY SHE WOULD DENY THIS TO HIM. But people, SHE ALREADY GAVE A REASON BUT HE IS CALLING IT NONSENSICAL.

NoGuts, instead of going through all of this back and forth with opinions from people you don't know, why not tell us what was the reason she gave and let us work from there. Sheesh....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vega

Fozzy said:


> You're probably right. I'm sure he would also be happy to explain to her why that's the case.


Annnnnd, perhaps HIS "reason" 'why' won't be 'good enough' for HER...

Vega


----------



## inarut

nuclearnightmare said:


> Sorry I'm going to have to call foul on this point,even though I am empathetic with the OP.
> LORDHAVOK do want an open marriage? Threesomes are by definition things that occurr in open marriages. Regardless of her past is that what YOU want now?



I'm also sympathetic with the op. i understand his feelings unless he is pushing for a threesome which he hasn't explicitly stated.. but your post is different. You seem to want to treat her like a f"uck toy in the same way you say her doiuche bag ex boyfriend did. You don't understand the the answer I love you too much and can't bare the thought of sharing you??? Maybe you shouldn't be married...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

Vega said:


> Annnnnd, perhaps HIS "reason" 'why' won't be 'good enough' for HER...
> 
> Vega


Perhaps it wouldn't be. I think giving a spouse the courtesy of an honest answer is not a bad thing. Where it goes from there is up to the two of them.


----------



## Thunder7

Well, I was going to chime in, when I thought things were still constructive. But I think anytime a thread reaches over 20 pages we've gone way beyond constructive. It's just round and round from here. I sympathize with the OP and do agree he was deceived/lied to. And, for the record, when asking someone for an explanation and all you get is 'Because, I don't want to', well, that holds as much water as the 'Because I'm the mommy' explanation.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course not, he can ask why. But if he doesn't like there answer and throws a tantrum he's a whiny little b!tch. And if all he gets is "because I don't want to", is b!tching more details out of her going to get the outcome he wants? People who aint interested aint interested.
> Apparently I'm weird, if it aint given freely I don't want it , but that's just me. There's no bigger turnoff for me then an unenthusiastic partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size




LITS

I agree with you, tantrums are weak. His reply should be something more like "wow, first I don't know I'm marrying a wh*'re. Then when that comes to light I found out her menu has changed."

It's a conversation that will not/should not lead to lovemaking. More one where it's time for him to make sure she knows she can be replaced - that this is where things are headed if she can't do a better job of explaining what is in her head regarding this stuff.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Vega said:


> Because "Because I don't want to" SHOULD be a 'good enough' reason NOT to.
> 
> But it seems that no matter WHAT her response to him would be, would not be "good enough" for HIM.


It wouldn't' t be good enough for me either. But he may have married himself a full blown fraud. He may need to face that sooner rather later..'...


----------



## Vega

Fozzy said:


> Perhaps it wouldn't be. I think giving a spouse the courtesy of an honest answer is not a bad thing. Where it goes from there is up to the two of them.


I think telling a spouse, "Because I don't want to" IS an HONEST answer. 

"No" is _still_ a complete sentence...whether we're married or not.

The OP should respect that, and not try to coerce her into doing something she obviously does NOT want to do, REGARDLESS of her reasons. 

From *my* vantage point it looks like the OP is trying to make this about his "hurt ego" JUST so he can have leverage over his wife for not telling him about this in the first place. Kind of like, "You LIED to me, so now you OWE it to me to do 'it' WITH *ME*!" 

If that's the case, I'd be serving him his divorce papers before the ink was dry...

Vega


----------



## techmom

All I see on this thread is the making of a sexless marriage. Badgering your wife for a reason that makes sense to you? You are setting her up to fail, nothing coming out of her mouth would make sense to you except "ok we can do it". Everything else is illogical, nonsensical and every other word the OP can use to invalidate his wife's reason for not giving him this gift.

At this point, it is past being a gift. It would be an obligation, and a duty because the OP does feel entitled to this.

This is why women lie about their pasts, some men can't handle the truth without bringing out the whiny entitled side of themselves. And it is not sexy, alpha or whatever else. 

Let's turn the tables a bit, why don't all men make a list of sexual wants for the girlfriend they are getting seriously involved with. Let her look it over and if she does not want to do every single sex act on that list then he dumps her. Finds another girl, repeat process. You only marry the girl who wants to do EVERYTHING ON THE SEX WISH LIST. Another thing iss to only present the list to the girlfriend after being together for at least 4 years and having frequent sex for those 4 years. I say 4 years because there is no way in hell a LD would put out like that consistently for 4 years straight.

With this method, you will eliminate all of the withholding, prudish, ice queens who are out to quickly snag some poor nice guy provider husband whose only wish is to be loved like every alpha stud male he was jealous of his whole life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Faithful Wife said:


> Why is it a woman's obligation to pet and stroke a man's ego? I mean, honestly.
> 
> I understand retro-active jealousy. But "give me what you gave him" is just ridiculous. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are not entitled to any part of your wife's body or sexuality.


I suppose a spouse is not entitled to the others' emotions, attention, or communication either.....if they don't want to offer those things. Offering any kind of love within marriage should be voluntary. But it's kinda reasonable to expect that a marriage partner will offer all those.

And give me a break, why should husbands stroke their wives' egos? How about because that is something that people in love naturally want to do for each other.......voluntarily


----------



## Vega

Thunder7 said:


> And, for the record, when asking someone for an explanation and all you get is 'Because, I don't want to', well, that holds as much water as the 'Because I'm the mommy' explanation.


And saying, "You did it for HIM, but not for ME" is a "reason" to do 'it'?


----------



## LostViking

I think OP should delete this thread. It is serving no useful purpose other than to incite fruitless sniping and name-calling. 

There are times when TAM is a great resource. This is not one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

> All I see on this thread is the making of a sexless marriage. Badgering your wife for a reason that makes sense to you? You are setting her up to fail, nothing coming out of her mouth would make sense to you except "ok we can do it".


Yes! And once she resentfully agrees to do all these magical sex acts, he will come on here and complain how she was not into it and laid there like a starfish. You're right, she can't win.


----------



## Thunder7

Vega said:


> And saying, "You did it for HIM, but not for ME" is a "reason" to do 'it'?


I didn't say that. But it's a topic that unfortunately needs to be discussed, by the parties involved, for the relationship to continue to progress. "Because I don't want to" is the equivalent of slamming the door in someone's face. It is a way to attempt to STOP the conversation. Not a way to address an issue in order to come to some kind of resolution. With no resolution, this will continue to fester until the relationship is gone.


----------



## Cletus

GettingIt said:


> In the meantime, women are like, "Dude! That other airplane crashed and burned, killing everyone on board! The one I'm flying my husband on will get him to his destination in one piece!"


Did it crash because he was sitting in first class?


----------



## Vega

Thunder7 said:


> I didn't say that. But it's a topic that unfortunately needs to be discussed, by the parties involved, for the relationship to continue to progress. "Because I don't want to" is the equivalent of slamming the door in someone's face. It is a way to attempt to STOP the conversation. Not a way to address an issue in order to come to some kind of resolution. With no resolution, this will continue to fester until the relationship is gone.


Don't you get it? There won't BE a resolution. No matter WHAT answer his wife gives him, it wont' be GOOD ENOUGH! 

In all honesty, I'm sure that there's much, much more to the dynamic of their marriage than meets the eye...


----------



## Thunder7

Vega said:


> Don't you get it? There won't BE a resolution. No matter WHAT answer his wife gives him, it wont' be GOOD ENOUGH!
> 
> In all honesty, I'm sure that there's much, much more to the dynamic of their marriage than meets the eye...


So sweeping everything under the rug, pretending this new, deceitful information never came out is the proper solution. I agree there's probably more than meets the eye here. But that is no resolution.


----------



## Theseus

techmom said:


> Let's turn the tables a bit, why don't all men make a list of sexual wants for the girlfriend they are getting seriously involved with. Let her look it over and if she does not want to do every single sex act on that list then he dumps her. Finds another girl, repeat process. You only marry the girl who wants to do EVERYTHING ON THE SEX WISH LIST. Another thing iss to only present the list to the girlfriend after being together for at least 4 years and having frequent sex for those 4 years. I say 4 years because there is no way in hell a LD would put out like that consistently for 4 years straight.


Interesting idea, but it has nothing to do with this situation. 

The main problem isn't her lack of sex or being LD per se. The main problem is being HD with boyfriends but LD with her husband. 

Are you seriously going to tell us with a straight face that he has no legitimate reason to be bothered by this? He should just forget the fact that he's riding coach while the ex-boyfriend was riding first class?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts said: "I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand."
> 
> I get that. But your wife isn't responsible for YOUR feelings. No one is.
> 
> I understand it hurts.
> 
> That still isn't your wife's fault.
> 
> Some men would NOT CARE.
> 
> So this isn't something that any and all men would feel or think. It is your personal demon. Which I'm not trying to minimize...yet it is still YOURS and yours alone to deal with.


FW

you are going co.allegedly off the rails in this thread. I KNOW you understand men better than that. This IS something that almost all men would feel and think. The small percentage that wouldn't would not be paying attention or in denial etc.


----------



## techmom

Theseus said:


> Interesting idea, but it has nothing to do with this situation.
> 
> The main problem isn't her lack of sex or being LD per se. The main problem is being HD with boyfriends but LD with her husband.
> 
> Are you seriously going to tell us with a straight face that he has no legitimate reason to be bothered by this? He should just forget the fact that he's riding coach while the ex-boyfriend was riding first class?


This theory has everything to do with this situation. Was he revealing ALL OF HIS FANTASIES before marriage? If she knew before marriage that he wanted this maybe she would not have had a reason to omit this from her history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

:iagree:



Anonymous Person said:


> Show her this thread.


----------



## Vega

Thunder7 said:


> So sweeping everything under the rug, pretending this new, deceitful information never came out is the proper solution. I agree there's probably more than meets the eye here. But that is no resolution.


I'm not saying that everything should be swept under the rug, so to speak. But there's a difference between LYING and intentionally withholding information. 

Let's put it this way. No one "deserves" the truth just because they WANT it. After all, if a Nazi soldier came to my door in Germany during WWII and asked me if there are any Jews in my house, I would DEFINITELY lie, if I had a basement full of Jews. I would lie because I already know that the soldier would kill the Jews. Therefore, they don't "deserve" the truth. 

As I mentioned before, perhaps the OP's wife didn't reveal this information to him because she already knew him well enough that if he found out that she did 'this' before, that HE would want her to do 'it' with _him_. Just because she 'enjoyed' 'it' before doesn't mean that she wants to do it NOW. Tastes change. People change. Heck, I've done things as a kid that, while I 'enjoyed' doing it at the time, I wouldn't DREAM of doing it NOW! I look back on some of the stuff I did and think "WTF were you THINKING, Vega?!" LOL! 

Perhaps the OP should put himself is his wife's shoes. If there was something that he did a long time ago that he liked doing but not longer does--AND, he was afraid that if he TOLD his partner that, that his partner would want to do 'it' because his partner had a big EGO--what would the OP do? 

I think if the OP got control of his ego, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.


----------



## techmom

Sometimes men don't reveal their total sexual selves before marriage in fear of seeming like a sex crazed maniac to a lady they are trying to attract for marrying. They want to attract the good girl who does not do such things, look at how the OP's wife has been insulted in this thread. Being called a **** and ***** by some posters is not justified. So he misrespresents himself as a good guy for marriage.

Misrepresentation happens on both sides of the table. After marriage all of the deepest darkest aspects are brought into the light. On both sides. I want to ask the OP, did you reveal all of your fantasies before marriage? If not, then why would you expect her to reveal all of her history?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thunder7

Vega said:


> I'm not saying that everything should be swept under the rug, so to speak. But there's a difference between LYING and intentionally withholding information.
> 
> Let's put it this way. No one "deserves" the truth just because they WANT it. After all, if a Nazi soldier came to my door in Germany during WWII and asked me if there are any Jews in my house, I would DEFINITELY lie, if I had a basement full of Jews. I would lie because I already know that the soldier would kill the Jews. Therefore, they don't "deserve" the truth.
> 
> As I mentioned before, perhaps the OP's wife didn't reveal this information to him because she already knew him well enough that if he found out that she did 'this' before, that HE would want her to do 'it' with _him_. Just because she 'enjoyed' 'it' before doesn't mean that she wants to do it NOW. Tastes change. People change. Heck, I've done things as a kid that, while I 'enjoyed' doing it at the time, I wouldn't DREAM of doing it NOW! I look back on some of the stuff I did and think "WTF were you THINKING, Vega?!" LOL!
> 
> Perhaps the OP should put himself is his wife's shoes. If there was something that he did a long time ago that he liked doing but not longer does--AND, he was afraid that if he TOLD his partner that, that his partner would want to do 'it' because his partner had a big EGO--what would the OP do?
> 
> I think if the OP got control of his ego, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.


I can say I can see it both ways. But, as a guy who has to deal with the issue of RJ, I sympathize with what he's going through. Go back and look at my very first post here. You sound like you might come down on the 'get over it' side of things.


----------



## Vega

Thunder7 said:


> I can say I can see it both ways. But, as a guy who has to deal with the issue of RJ, I sympathize with what he's going through. Go back and look at my very first post here. You sound like you might come down on the 'get over it' side of things.


No, not "get over it", but "Let's examine it...". And yes, I can see it both ways too, but in all honesty, I don't think that the OP's partner should do something she obviously doesn't want to do to, JUST to soothe the OP's ego. I mean, just like he wants HER to have a 'better reason' for NOT doing it ("Because I don't want to), shouldn't HE have a 'better reason' for WANTING to do it besides, "You did it for other men, but not for me"?

I mean, they BOTH seem a little...immature. 

Vega


----------



## nuclearnightmare

OP

I think one problem posters are having is our sketchy information on what exactly your wife has kept from you, how you found out and what she won,t do but used to. So people are filling in the gaps with hypothetical. We could zero in much more if we knew much more.....


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Theseus said:


> Are you seriously going to tell us with a straight face that he has no legitimate reason to be bothered by this? He should just forget the fact that he's riding coach while the ex-boyfriend was riding first class?


It would be great to get just a little bit of validation that it's ok to want to be #1 with the woman you've committed your life to.


----------



## where_are_we

I just want to wish the OP good luck with this issue. 
I hope the best for you and your wife and that you get the answers you need.

This thread has become non-productive and has turned into a junior high bashing, instead of adults trying to constructively help someone. This is why I come and go from this place. It's distressing. 

So I'm out on this one.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

MyTurn said:


> The facts , as OP said, are:
> he asked before M
> she said no (lied)
> OP found out by her BF (it slipped)
> he confronted her , she admitted threesome ,bdsm,anal etc.
> she also admitted she liked it
> OP askes to do some of the above and is denied without a reason
> OP forgives for the lies
> OP feels hurt and sexualy less attractive
> 
> Isn't it obvious that OP has been cheated , deceived and betrayed?


Yep. It's kinda pretty obvious, and should be easy to digest. But apparently for the cadre of TAM "sistas" it is all too complicated, a provider male should understand that he doesn't viscerally excite her the way her super-dooper ex BF did, and he should just be happy with whatever gruel she dishes out, as he isn't even a human being to her. It's just all about her, the husband just has to accept/adapt/shut up/etc.

I just lived through ten years of this shtt.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Vega said:


> I'm not saying that everything should be swept under the rug, so to speak. But there's a difference between LYING and intentionally withholding information.
> 
> Let's put it this way. No one "deserves" the truth just because they WANT it. After all, if a Nazi soldier came to my door in Germany during WWII and asked me if there are any Jews in my house, I would DEFINITELY lie, if I had a basement full of Jews. I would lie because I already know that the soldier would kill the Jews. Therefore, they don't "deserve" the truth.
> 
> As I mentioned before, perhaps the OP's wife didn't reveal this information to him because she already knew him well enough that if he found out that she did 'this' before, that HE would want her to do 'it' with _him_. Just because she 'enjoyed' 'it' before doesn't mean that she wants to do it NOW. Tastes change. People change. Heck, I've done things as a kid that, while I 'enjoyed' doing it at the time, I wouldn't DREAM of doing it NOW! I look back on some of the stuff I did and think "WTF were you THINKING, Vega?!" LOL!
> 
> Perhaps the OP should put himself is his wife's shoes. If there was something that he did a long time ago that he liked doing but not longer does--AND, he was afraid that if he TOLD his partner that, that his partner would want to do 'it' because his partner had a big EGO--what would the OP do?
> 
> I think if the OP got control of his ego, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.


:lol: I am reading this? A Nazi analogy in a thread about sex in marriage? Talk about Godwin's law...

OP's wife doesn't want to do those things with him, because he isn't really her Man, he fill other roles, provider, stability, father. He is not her Lover. That slot in her mind is occupied by memories, or fantasies, or something else, just not OP.


----------



## Starstarfish

> laid there like a starfish.


On behalf of starfish everywhere, I'd like to point out my offense to this. 

On a more serious note, definately glad to see we got away from the fake psychoanaylsis by lounge-chair psychiatrists. Oh, wait no - it's fine to examine female motives and discuss their reasoning, and label women this and that (every woman on the planet seems to be BPD) but using that against men is just offensive, as we don't know -anything about them.-

PS - OP, we know little to nothing about your wife, how should other people be able to answer why she's thinking something. 
And IIRC if your wife's "wild past" about the basement of American Eagle?


----------



## someone90

nogutsnoglory said:


> She was in a committed relationship of a long term boyfriend during the threesome with another woman and she enjoyed the experience and admits it.
> She was also involved in other acts involving just her partner at the time, no threesome. She claims to have enjoyed them all, has no regrets, yet lied to me about ever doing these things. I understand but do not forgive the lie. I do not forgive liars.
> 
> My opinion on being lied to is I get to change my reaction to what it would have been had I been given the truth. I am not allowed this concession though. I am wrong to want these things, I am wrong to feel slighted. I just do not agree.


I would be really upset about the lying too. I don't think that her doing those things with you would make up for it, I feel like you're looking for resolution in a way that won't give it to you.


----------



## Vega

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Yep. It's kinda pretty obvious, and should be easy to digest. But apparently for the cadre of TAM "sistas" it is all too complicated, a provider male should understand that he doesn't viscerally excite her the way her super-dooper ex BF did, and he should just be happy with whatever gruel she dishes out, as he isn't even a human being to her. It's just all about her, the husband just has to accept/adapt/shut up/etc.
> 
> I just lived through ten years of this shtt.


Nothing says that the OP has to "put up with" this or "accept/adapt etc." The OP DOES have the choice to LEAVE. 

But he DOESN"T get to coerce or manipulate her into doing what she did with someone else as "atonement" for her "sin of omission". 

Vega


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

OP just wants to feel like a Man, to feel like his woman's #1.

I have to laugh at women and manboobs intentionally derailing such a simple premise with hairsplitting over exactly WHAT fantasies are the problem.

It could be NO fetish or fantasy, it could simply be the level of enthusiasm for basic vanilla.

If a woman was up for normal sex regularly, nothing deviant, with an ex, and enjoyed it, and was thus clearly capable of being a passionate and sexual being with him, but is a cold robot that doles out duty sex for her husband even though he does EVERY thing she asks, then what is a husband to do?

Basically, he has to accept that he NEVER WAS her Man, that she married him for reasons of security, safety, stability, money, good father material, etc, and that he isn't as sexually exciting as her ex/s, and thus she never can genuinely be the same way with him, what's she to do, fake it?

The problem with women is, they can't grasp that they don't have the fcuking right to OWN a man they don't want 100%, like he is their slave, roping him into a marriage with whatever acts and lies and "omissions of truth" are necessary, knowing full well they don't "feel it" the same way they did with Mr.Super-Dooper.

He only has one life, LET HIM GO! If he isn't your Man, fcuking let him go, he'd even be happier on his own, than chained to a woman that gets 100% of him, while she isn't even showing up 100% herself.


----------



## Vega

The Cro-Magnon said:


> :lol: I am reading this? A Nazi analogy in a thread about sex in marriage? Talk about Godwin's law...
> 
> *OP's wife doesn't want to do those things with him, because he isn't really her Man, he fill other roles, provider, stability, father. He is not her Lover. That slot in her mind is occupied by memories, or fantasies, or something else, just not OP*.


I suppose mind-reading is the way to resolve all problems...right? 

Seems to me that you got her all figured out. So, it doesn't really matter WHAT 'reason' she gives. She's ska-rooed no matter WHAT she says. 

My vote is for the OP to either ACCEPT that she's not interested, OR to leave. But coercing her or manipulating her is NOT an option. 

Vega


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Vega said:


> Nothing says that the OP has to "put up with" this or "accept/adapt etc." The OP DOES have the choice to LEAVE.
> 
> But he DOESN"T get to coerce or manipulate her into doing what she did with someone else as "atonement" for her "sin of omission".
> 
> Vega


Atonement.
Sin.
Manipulate.

This is the language of garden variety feminist shaming tactics.

If he was her Man, and he was her #1, she would be doing these things for him already.

He is not, as his gut, and heart, and mind, are telling him, her #1.

And you are right, he DOES have the right to leave, without shame, or guilt. 

And perhaps it would be a better world if more men did, rather than put up with the lies, deceptions, emotional manipulations, of wives who still have other fantasies/memories/ex BF's/secret lovers/etc, who occupy the slot of #1 to their inner woman.

OP's suspicions are basically correct, he simply is not her #1, so why should he remain married to her?

No man or woman can remain psychologically healthy KNOWING they are 2nd best, it ruins you, it destroys you.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Vega said:


> I suppose mind-reading is the way to resolve all problems...right?
> 
> Seems to me that you got her all figured out. So, it doesn't really matter WHAT 'reason' she gives. She's ska-rooed no matter WHAT she says.
> 
> My vote is for the OP to either ACCEPT that she's not interested, OR to leave. But coercing her or manipulating her is NOT an option.
> 
> Vega


Yeah, it's mind reading, because this situation has never happened before, and women NEVER marry men for reasons of security/safety even though he doesn't really rock their world, nope that has never happened before.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Yeah, it's mind reading, because this situation has never happened before, and women NEVER marry men for reasons of security/safety even though he doesn't really rock their world, nope that has never happened before.


Men never do it either, right? Marry the "nice girl" who will be acceptable to his parents and make a good mother, be a hard worker when he really isn't that into her.

You have threads right here on TAM to that effect. "I never really thought she was that attractive, but she helped put me through grad school, so how do I divorce her gently."


----------



## RClawson

I am at page 7 and feel like I am listening to a broken record. OP guess what? You are just like me. You are the guy your wife settles for. Do not get me wrong she is content but do not encroach on her history.

My wife loves me. She really does. She just has this guy (bad boy) in her history that she has not and will never shake (Long story many here know and who needs to hear about that again). Guess what they had sex in a theater. If I touch her leg in a theater she jumps about 30 feet in the air and gives me the steely stare. They had sex in a park. She let him go down on her and would not let me for 5 years into marriage. She gave him BJ's (says she did not but I know pretty much everything at this point) and really just started to give them to me a couple years back (that makes it about year 26).

Bottom line what she had with him was theirs and that is the way she wants to keep it and why do I want to trigger any of that? I have a hard enough time trying to fend off all of the other triggers that will always be a part of our relationship.

I suggest you accept it or move on but take some advice from someone who has been living it for almost 3 decades continuing to obsess about it will slowly eat away at your very soul.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

*inb4nawalt*



Starstarfish said:


> Men never do it either, right? Marry the "nice girl" who will be acceptable to his parents and make a good mother, be a hard worker when he really isn't that into her.
> 
> You have threads right here on TAM to that effect. "I never really thought she was that attractive, but she helped put me through grad school, so how do I divorce her gently."


If there truly were such cases, where a Man married a Woman he did not truly love or place #1, the I would advise her to get the hell out of there! Staying in such a marriage, knowing she is 2nd place, would destroy her, I would not wish that on any human.

You can't force someone to love you, they will or they won't. The crime is trying to retain someone, as though you own them, because you merely need their financial security, or Life stability, even though they don't really float your boat, you are WASTING THEIR LIFE!

Maybe more men should just leave their cold, distant, flippant, blase wives. Just fcuking leave them, and create a life in which they are happy, and at least someone is putting them #1, even if it is but themselves.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Vega said:


> I suppose mind-reading is the way to resolve all problems...right?
> 
> Seems to me that you got her all figured out. So, it doesn't really matter WHAT 'reason' she gives. * She's ska-rooed no matter WHAT she says. *


It's what she does, not says.



> She's either going to feel it/do it, with OP, freely and happily, they way she did with other men.
> 
> Or she is not.


And in this case she is not, with no apology, or explanation.



> My vote is for the OP to either ACCEPT that she's not interested, OR to leave. But coercing her or manipulating her is NOT an option.
> 
> Vega


Yep, he should leave her, I agree. he should leave her to stew in her own shtt. Her own morass of deluded expectations, and rose tinted memories of past lovers, and fantasies of impossibly perfect men (or whatever it is) and most tellingly, her unapologetic refusal to meet his basic, primordial need to feel her #1.

He should get some hobbies, get in touch with friends, extract his self esteem from her keeping, prioritize himself 100%, and become a complete and whole Man again, and then he might have a chance at meeting a woman that actually DOES put him at #1.


----------



## Vega

*Re: inb4nawalt*



The Cro-Magnon said:


> Maybe more men should just leave their cold, distant, flippant, blase wives. Just fcuking leave them, and create a life in which they are happy, and at least someone is putting them #1, even if it is but themselves.


Great idea! And _WOMEN_ should do the same...

Oh wait...

is that "feminist"...or _*F-A-I-R*_?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

*Re: inb4nawalt*



Vega said:


> Great idea! And _WOMEN_ should do the same...
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> is that "feminist"...or _*F-A-I-R*_?


It would be completely fair, why would you deduce otherwise from my string of posts? 

NO HUMAN should be made to feel #2, it destroys the self-esteem, the self-belief, the enjoyment of life, it makes you question everything, it leaves you in a limbo of self-doubt, it is HELL, I wouldn't wish ANY human to endure such a thing, man or woman.

Those attacking OP for his perfectly normal human needs should take a hard look in the mirror, and cultivate some empathy.


----------



## larry.gray

LostViking said:


> I think OP should delete this thread. It is serving no useful purpose other than to incite fruitless sniping and name-calling.
> 
> There are times when TAM is a great resource. This is not one of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be why I don't have ANY useful advice threads of my own. Too much crap, too much nasty input from people. I did find some useful stuff, but I hated the rest and put them all to rest.


----------



## Vega

*Re: inb4nawalt*



The Cro-Magnon said:


> Those attacking OP for his perfectly normal human needs should take a hard look in the mirror, and cultivate some empathy.


...and empathy is _exactly_ what I think the OP is missing...

After all, whether we're talking about having sex with an ex, doing drugs with an ex, giving money to an ex or eating chocolate ice cream with an ex, the _principle_ is the same. I'm sure the OP wouldn't like it if HE did something with ex (such as, give her $10,000) and his current wife told him that since he gave his g/f 10K that he should give HER 10k in order to *prove* that he "loves" her. 

I can guarantee you, that the OP wouldn't be having many 'warm fuzzy' feelings toward his WIFE if she did that...

Vega


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

*Re: inb4nawalt*



Vega said:


> ...and empathy is _exactly_ what I think the OP is missing...
> 
> After all, whether we're talking about having sex with an ex, doing drugs with an ex, giving money to an ex or eating chocolate ice cream with an ex, the _principle_ is the same. I'm sure the OP wouldn't like it if HE did something with ex (such as, give her $10,000) and his current wife told him that since he gave his g/f 10K that he should give HER 10k in order to *prove* that he "loves" her.
> 
> I can guarantee you, that the OP wouldn't be having many 'warm fuzzy' feelings toward his WIFE if she did that...
> 
> Vega


You intentionally ignore the main thrust of this thread, and my posts, that a man (and woman) needs to feel their significant other's #1. I expect you to ignore this as well.

And you equate love & validation with drugs and money, and feel that such are comparable enough to work an analogy out of it (along with Nazis)?

God help you. Ciao to you.

OP's basic human need to feel number #1 is completely normal and natural, and I hope he has the strength to put himself first, if she will not.

It is living Hell to live with the self-doubt OP is beginning to know, and I would not wish it upon anybody.


----------



## Lyris

Maybe she is putting him as number one by refusing a threesome because she doesn't want to share him. Maybe knowing he is happy to share her sexually is making her feel like she's not number one to him. 

Threesomes are pretty dangerous to relationships and the OP's wife would have a better idea about that than he would since she's actually had one.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Lyris said:


> Maybe she is putting him as number one by refusing a threesome because she doesn't want to share him.


You don't even believe that yourself.



> Maybe knowing he is happy to share her sexually is making her feel like she's not number one to him.


Yeah, because she sounds so unsure, so insecure, so worried, in her confident, unapologetic, and almost flippant refusals. Sounds like she has no power at all, right.



> Threesomes are pretty dangerous to relationships and the OP's wife would have a better idea about that than he would since she's actually had one.


Except she didn't say that, she said it was great, and that she enjoyed it, but just wouldn't do it with OP. And was unapologetic about it, and refused to explain, OP was expected to just shut up, get over it, and keep providing a weekly wage.

I wager OP's wife could turn his feelings around just by bring legitimately enthusiastic and passionate for him, wanting him, needing him, OP would feel that, and would consequently feel #1, like "da man". 

This shtt is so basic, and obvious, that I am amazed it even reached 2 pages, much less 30 or whatever.

After enduring a decade of this shtt, where I finally got out of my xw that I was right, that her 1st BF was "all that" and that she'd screwed men in public in broad daylight, and still carried a torch for him despite all the hurt he caused her, and despite the fact she had a husband that loved her absolutely, yet she still couldn't bring herself to show up 100% to the party, I would advise the OP to start disengaging, and to be seriously prepared to and be capable of, living his life alone, complete and whole.

If she doesn't want him, or put him #1, then she should let him go, she does not own him, he is NOT her slave.


----------



## Lyris

I don't believe or not believe. How would I (or you) know what's really going on.

It's a possibility. If not for this OP, then for someone else. I'd be pretty unimpressed if my husband was willing to share me, regardless of what I'd done in previous relationships.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Lyris said:


> I don't believe or not believe. How would I (or you) know what's really going on.
> 
> It's a possibility. If not for this OP, then for someone else. I'd be pretty unimpressed if my husband was willing to share me, regardless of what I'd done in previous relationships.


LOL, should he accept not being her #1?

Would you accept not being your man's #1?

I'll try to make it simple, since this is like trying to wrestle a hivemind anaconda on PCP, it is ultimately nothing to do with threesomes, or midgets, or dolphin BDSM gangbangs, or whatever, it is about him not feeling #1, and her flippant, unapologetic refusal to explain why "super-dooper ex BF" gets her deluxe package, whilst OP only gets vanilla duty, is merely further evidence to OP's mind that he simply isn't #1, but that other Men are, and he's feeling pretty crap as a consequence.

And _she doesn't even seem to care that this hurts him_, which again, only FURTHER hardens his (probably correct, sadly) suspicions. If he isn't #1, it stands to reason he isn't going to matter enough to even make an effort for. He is simply there. Like a piece of furniture that gives her money every week.

If it was a matter of juvenile indiscretion, it would be easy to explain "Look, my darling, those things I did, I did because I was young, and I now regret them, and in no way would I want to do that again, I spent years getting over it, you however are all the Man I need"

But that's not the feedback OP was getting, is it "yeah, it was awesome, but it is not for you, it was only for him, just get over it, shut up, and dealwitdat.jpg"

edit: And what's TAM gonna do? FORCE her to love him? She either is, or she isn't, and it's pretty clear that in this instance, she isn't, and _she can't even be stuffed coming up with an explanation_, even that is too much effort. If a woman loves a guy, she'll move heaven and earth for him. Does it sound like she's moving anything for OP.


----------



## Lyris

I don't need you to make it simple thanks. I don't really believe in simple. Or number 1s for that matter.

From what I can see you're doing a whole lot of projecting with not a lot of information. I'd be interested to hear the OP's wife's side frankly.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Lyris said:


> I don't need you to make it simple thanks. I don't really believe in simple. Or number 1s for that matter.
> 
> From what I can see you're doing a whole lot of projecting with not a lot of information. I'd be interested to hear the OP's wife's side frankly.


LOL, projecting? This is one of the most basic problems in the sex in marriage subforum. You don't believe in #1's, well good for you. Most normal humans do, however. You ask any normal person "would you stay if you found out you were not your spouse's #1?" 

OP's problem IS that simple, he even articulated it himself.

Would you stay with your man knowing he put other women above you? That he was prepared to give other women 100%, but not you, and you weren't even worth enough to him to come up with a half-arsed explanation, other than :just dealwitdat.jpg"


----------



## chillymorn

NGNG

ok this has been beat to death.

trying to be
constructive as possible. In my opinion I would have one last talk about it with your wife. don't be a insecure jerk as you do it. something along the line of I would like to know why you lied (weather by ommission or not its still a lie) tell her you love her and that is not going to change. but as her husband you feel you deserve an explination.

then take her words as truth. and put this behind you.

on a side note would you really want some of the things she did in the past? threesomes almost always ruin a marriage. do you want to take that chance?

then I would ramp up you sex rank by taking better care of yourself, being a better provider and living life to it fullest. If you can't put this behind you it could end up desaterious for your family.

the balls in your court everybody has to face some strife in their marriage. are yoou going let this derail you or are you going to be a man about it.and accept it and move on.


----------



## Theseus

Lyris said:


> Maybe she is putting him as number one by refusing a threesome because she doesn't want to share him. Maybe knowing he is happy to share her sexually is making her feel like she's not number one to him.
> 
> Threesomes are pretty dangerous to relationships and the OP's wife would have a better idea about that than he would since she's actually had one.


I know this thread is long, so some people might have missed it, but the OP said that the threesome thing was not one of the activities he was asking from her.


----------



## Theseus

RClawson said:


> I am at page 7 and feel like I am listening to a broken record. OP guess what? You are just like me. You are the guy your wife settles for. Do not get me wrong she is content but do not encroach on her history.
> 
> My wife loves me. She really does. She just has this guy (bad boy) in her history that she has not and will never shake (Long story many here know and who needs to hear about that again). Guess what they had sex in a theater. If I touch her leg in a theater she jumps about 30 feet in the air and gives me the steely stare. They had sex in a park. She let him go down on her and would not let me for 5 years into marriage. She gave him BJ's (says she did not but I know pretty much everything at this point) and really just started to give them to me a couple years back (that makes it about year 26).
> 
> Bottom line what she had with him was theirs and that is the way she wants to keep it and why do I want to trigger any of that? I have a hard enough time trying to fend off all of the other triggers that will always be a part of our relationship.
> 
> I suggest you accept it or move on but take some advice from someone who has been living it for almost 3 decades continuing to obsess about it will slowly eat away at your very soul.




RClawson,

I greatly sympathize with your situation, but I don't think your advice to "accept it" is very helpful. The reason why it "slowly ate away at your very soul" is because you made the decision to stay 30 years with a woman who had settled for you. I wouldn't advise the OP, or anyone else, male or female, to do that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Vega said:


> My question is why do you believe you "deserve" this? I mean, there' a difference between WANTING these things and feeling "entitled" or "deserving" of them.
> 
> I'm just curious as to WHY you think you "deserve" this.
> 
> Vega.


Because I am a good man and husband. I deserve a wife that loves me and wants to be sexual with me. I can't demand any particular person provide that, but I certainly won't settle for less than that in a relationship. I love my wife. I support her and our family. I work hard to meet her needs. I make her laugh (in a good way) and add to her life. She should (and does) do the same for me. Above all, I am a good man. 

Perhaps another question is why don't I (or anyone else) deserve that?


----------



## Vega

If the OP is going to tie up his ENTIRE EGO STRUCTURE on whether or not his wife performs ONE sex act that she did with someone else, I'd say that the OP's problem has little to do with sex...

If he's not going to feel like he's his wife's "#1" because she doesn't want to do *A* certain sex act with him that she did with someone else in her past, maybe it's time for him to start examining WHY he's putting all of his eggs in one basket. 

Of course, he COULD be simply SAYING that his ego is "hurt" by her refusal as a means of manipulation. 

His wife already told him that she does not want to do 'it'. Let's say that the OP convinces her that she's being 'selfish' (or some other insult) by not doing this "for him". Reluctantly, she agrees. So the OP is willing to build up his own ego at the expense of HERS? 

And no, her refusal isn't tearing his ego down. His own attitude is what's tearing it down. 

If the OP learned to control his ego, he never would have started this thread.

Vega


----------



## samyeagar

inarut said:


> One last comment and I'm done. What is she going to do the next time she feels Hurt?!' THere are numerous options to choose from she could have chosen otherwise. What will she choose next time? And the time after that .... And the time after that...etc.....don't minimize what she Actually chose to do because she "felt" she had no options. Her choice and belief of a lack of options is so telling...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you are getting at here, but the dysfunction and cruelty in her marriage was extreme. It wasn't simply being 'Hurt' as one would be for having an anniversary forgottem, being called fat or something like that. She was pushed to the breaking point, and she broke. She acknowledges that is was not a good reaction or way to deal with it.


Her ex-husband is NPD, as is my ex-wife. Being in a long term relationship with an NPD abuser is like nothing a person can fully understand unless they have lived it themself.


----------



## Anon Pink

nogutsnoglory said:


> honestly, I am not sure, its why I came here to find reasoning that was logical, maybe I was missing something.


I've only read the first 160 or so posts, damn this thread grows fast!

Something doesn't make sense at all here and I think it is the premise itself. "She did these acts, *and enjoyed them,* but refuses to do them with me."

First, I can understand how that would make you feel like second class, second best, plan B... That is very hurtful indeed! Second, if she actually, really, totally enjoyed these sex acts, it makes NO sense that she is unwilling to do them with you...the guy she loves and married. No sense at all. I can't think of a single sex act that any woman would participate in, enjoy, yet refuse to duplicate for her husband; except a 3some. And a 3some with a past lover, though it might have been enjoyable itself, probably strained the relationship so much she is unwilling to place her marriage in that same strained position.

So I simply can't get behind the premise... She enjoyed it. There is a difference between enjoying the sex act and being okay with that sex act. Like others have said, it's possible she can't get behind a loving virtuous wife engaging in certain sex acts? If that's the case then more dialogue between you two needs to happen. She needs to understand being a wife is the safest place to be explorative and open. Maybe some better encouragement here?

Now, in terms of other sex acts, it seems some better probing might be in order. Take BDSM for instance. Maybe the acts were enjoyable, but left her feeling abused, or used, or far too helpless? Maybe she refuses to duplicate them because she didn't like how she felt about herself the next day. 

But if you swear that she did these things and fully enjoyed them, had no second thoughts about doing them, has fond memories of them, and yet refuses to give you the same she gave previous lover, then she's just not into you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I am a woman and totally "get" the Op's opening post...if I was a Man, I would feel the same ....Men have "EGO"... so what else is new under the sun......they want to feel like they can fire us up & they are King of the Mountain...that we melt under their touch....why wouldn't they?

So they say...Men care more about Respect over Love anyway....as if us women don't want to feel we are the most desired voluptuous creature in HIS EYES, the most precious thing that walked into HIS life...if we marry a good man who treats us with this precious care.....why should he get any less ? ...it's all in how we treat each other...what we do- speaks that love. 

As I see this turned around...women are far more Jealous when we think our men Looked that chick over there up & down while not putting us #1... so if a man feels this way...(but in the sexual -EGO...vs Women's feeling Less)... I am surely one to give him "a pass" and show some understanding.....

The term "gift" was used in the ending of his post twice...this is very telling when anyone does this...they see sex in a very special light -between 2 people deeply in love...HE WAS LIED TO....deceived ..he had more of a Romantic view going in...

..I believe our husbands should get the very BEST we ever had to offer...because he is the one man who walked us to the Alter and proved His love. We should do all we can to make him feel he is the most precious, wanted, desired King ever...and no man, no old flame, no ex who dangled his affections but was only a puff of hot air should compare. 

It's all in our attitudes, our enthusiasm....our men feel it... what we do, how we love them...and in the bedroom... speaks.


----------



## Anon Pink

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am a woman and totally "get" the Op's opening post...if I was a Man, I would feel the same ....Men have "EGO"... so what else is new under the sun......they want to feel like they can fire us up & they are King of the Mountain...that we melt under their touch....why wouldn't they?
> 
> So they say...Men care more about Respect over Love anyway....as if us women don't want to feel we are the most desired voluptuous creature in HIS EYES, the most precious thing that walked into HIS life...if we marry a good man who treats us with this precious care.....why should he get any less ? ...it's all in how we treat each other...what we do- speaks that love.
> 
> As I see this turned around...women are far more Jealous when we think our men Looked that chick over there up & down while not putting us #1... so if a man feels this way...(but in the sexual -EGO...vs Women's feeling Less)... I am surely one to give him "a pass" and show some understanding.....
> 
> The term "gift" was used in the ending of his post twice...this is very telling when anyone does this...they see sex in a very special light -between 2 people deeply in love...HE WAS LIED TO....deceived ..he had more of a Romantic view going in...
> 
> ..I believe our husbands should get the very BEST we ever had to offer...because he is the one man who walked us to the Alter and proved His love. We should do all we can to make him feel he is the most precious, wanted, desired King ever...and no man, no old flame, no ex who dangled his affections but was only a puff of hot air should compare.
> 
> It's all in our attitudes, our enthusiasm....our men feel it... what we do, how we love them...and in the bedroom... speaks.



Absolutely spot on SA!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

wow...long thread so I'm sorry if my comments were already said,I tried to wade through them all but damn! lol

OP,I get what you're saying. I really do and I am guilty of not being wild with my husband like I was with my exhusband. 

My reason,FWIW,was because I just wanted love and attention from my ex and it seemed the only way he wanted anything to do with me was when I was some sexy sex crazed sex kitten that would do anything he wanted.

My DH pays attention to me.He gives me love,amazing sex,orgasms galore, and meets all my needs. With him, I can be who I really am emotionally and sexually instead of faking it by turning into some wild sex pot persona that isn't sustainable long term. I'm also a bit older and more in tune with my body to know what REALLY turns me on and what doesn't. 

I'd still do anything he asked of me. Even though he knows I was wild,he isn't into that bc it wasn't really me.He's into who I am now.Not who I was pretending to be back then.

Not sure if that helps or not..


----------



## Anon Pink

ScarletBegonias said:


> wow...long thread so I'm sorry if my comments were already said,I tried to wade through them all but damn! lol
> 
> OP,I get what you're saying. I really do and I am guilty of not being wild with my husband like I was with my exhusband.
> 
> My reason,FWIW,was because I just wanted love and attention from my ex and it seemed the only way he wanted anything to do with me was when I was some sexy sex crazed sex kitten that would do anything he wanted.
> 
> My DH pays attention to me.He gives me love,amazing sex,orgasms galore, and meets all my needs. With him, I can be who I really am emotionally and sexually instead of faking it by turning into some wild sex pot persona that isn't sustainable long term. I'm also a bit older and more in tune with my body to know what REALLY turns me on and what doesn't.
> 
> I'd still do anything he asked of me. Even though he knows I was wild,he isn't into that bc it wasn't really me.He's into who I am now.Not who I was pretending to be back then.
> 
> Not sure if that helps or not..



This is a perfect example of doing something that might have felt good for a moment, but it left you feeling really rotten so you don't want to repeat it.

I think this might be what OP isn't understanding.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *ScarletBegonies said*: OP,I get what you're saying. I really do and I am guilty of not being wild with my husband like I was with my exhusband.
> 
> *My reason,FWIW,was because I just wanted love and attention from my ex and it seemed the only way he wanted anything to do with me was when I was some sexy sex crazed sex kitten that would do anything he wante*d.


This is very Honest...and makes sense......



> My DH pays attention to me.He gives me love,amazing sex,orgasms galore, and meets all my needs. *With him, I can be who I really am emotionally and sexually instead of faking it by turning into some wild sex pot persona that isn't sustainable long term*. I'm also a bit older and more in tune with my body to know what REALLY turns me on and what doesn't.


and still you'd go out of your way to please your husband...because of what he has brought to your life...feeling completely loved has a way of bringing that out of us, even helping us find who WE really are....he would never treat you like that ex...nor would he even want to do anything that you weren't comfortable doing.


----------



## Thunder7

RClawson said:


> I am at page 7 and feel like I am listening to a broken record. OP guess what? You are just like me. You are the guy your wife settles for. Do not get me wrong she is content but do not encroach on her history.
> 
> My wife loves me. She really does. She just has this guy (bad boy) in her history that she has not and will never shake (Long story many here know and who needs to hear about that again). Guess what they had sex in a theater. If I touch her leg in a theater she jumps about 30 feet in the air and gives me the steely stare. They had sex in a park. She let him go down on her and would not let me for 5 years into marriage. She gave him BJ's (says she did not but I know pretty much everything at this point) and really just started to give them to me a couple years back (that makes it about year 26).
> 
> Bottom line what she had with him was theirs and that is the way she wants to keep it and why do I want to trigger any of that? I have a hard enough time trying to fend off all of the other triggers that will always be a part of our relationship.
> 
> I suggest you accept it or move on but take some advice from someone who has been living it for almost 3 decades continuing to obsess about it will slowly eat away at your very soul.


Ouch! Can't add much more.


----------



## Fozzy

Anon Pink said:


> This is a perfect example of doing something that might have felt good for a moment, but it left you feeling really rotten so you don't want to repeat it.
> 
> I think this might be what OP isn't understanding.


I agree. This would be a very valid reason. What I get from the OP's posts is that the pain he's in stems from the fact that she hasn't made him understand the reason behind it. There may very well be a good solid reason that she's changed her mind about certain acts, but until she comes through with the communication it's not going to make any difference. Even if she started doing those acts with him now--wouldn't make any difference because it's going to be in his mind "why now, and not the last 20 years?"

The communication is the key here.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> wow...long thread so I'm sorry if my comments were already said,I tried to wade through them all but damn! lol
> 
> OP,I get what you're saying. I really do and I am guilty of not being wild with my husband like I was with my exhusband.
> 
> My reason,FWIW,was because I just wanted love and attention from my ex and it seemed the only way he wanted anything to do with me was when I was some sexy sex crazed sex kitten that would do anything he wanted.
> 
> My DH pays attention to me.He gives me love,amazing sex,orgasms galore, and meets all my needs. With him, I can be who I really am emotionally and sexually instead of faking it by turning into some wild sex pot persona that isn't sustainable long term. I'm also a bit older and more in tune with my body to know what REALLY turns me on and what doesn't.
> 
> I'd still do anything he asked of me. Even though he knows I was wild,he isn't into that bc it wasn't really me.He's into who I am now.Not who I was pretending to be back then.
> 
> Not sure if that helps or not..


This sounds very familiar to me, as my STBW is very similar in her reasoning, and I understand and accept that. It did take a bit of work on our part to fully understand this dynamic.

The hardest part for me was getting past the apparent contradiction in this...

Lack of Love and attention = Wild sex while meeting needs, loving, respecting, adoring = Less.

Do you see how that could be very difficult to understand? Why there are so many men under the impression that women go wild for guys that treat them like sh1t? The whole basis for the nice guys finish last mindset.

Along these lines, but with a humorous and less dire note...Last night my STBW said she had to take a bath and shave because she's getting a pedicure today and didn't want the person doing it feeling her stubbly legs. It's winter time so she only shaves them once a week or so, and I understand it, and it doesn't bother me or anything, but she asked if I could imagine how icky it would be to be the person having to feel them. I just stared at her, and finally asked her if she knew what she just said. She repeated herself, and I said, yeah, I'm the one who feels them every day so yeah, I can imagine...Again, this was no big deal at all, and I wasn't bothered by it, but it is an example appearing to care more about what someone else thinks than your own spouse.

Of course, when I buried my face between her legs later, she did point out that THAT shaving wasn't for her pedi


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> This sounds very familiar to me, as my STBW is very similar in her reasoning, and I understand and accept that. It did take a bit of work on our part to fully understand this dynamic.
> 
> The hardest part for me was getting past the apparent contradiction in this...
> 
> Lack of Love and attention = Wild sex while meeting needs, loving, respecting, adoring = Less.
> 
> Do you see how that could be very difficult to understand? Why there are so many men under the impression that women go wild for guys that treat them like sh1t? The whole basis for the nice guys finish last mindset.I definitely understand.The only explanation I could give was the fact that I had such a low self esteem and was emotionally unhealthy so I didn't realize I deserved better than my ex.It took me getting my head on right before I realized I deserved a nice man who loved me for me.That's why I always say here a nice man will be loved and cherished by an emotionally healthy mature woman.
> 
> Along these lines, but with a humorous and less dire note...Last night my STBW said she had to take a bath and shave because she's getting a pedicure today and didn't want the person doing it feeling her stubbly legs. It's winter time so she only shaves them once a week or so, and I understand it, and it doesn't bother me or anything, but she asked if I could imagine how icky it would be to be the person having to feel them. I just stared at her, and finally asked her if she knew what she just said. She repeated herself, and I said, yeah, I'm the one who feels them every day so yeah, I can imagine...Again, this was no big deal at all, and I wasn't bothered by it, but it is an example appearing to care more about what someone else thinks than your own spouse.LOL I can see that bc it happens in our house occasionally.I'm a hairy little beast so I have to shave all the time but I slack a bit in the winter.But if we're going out and I'm wearing tights or whatever I will be freshly shaven
> 
> Of course, when I buried my face between her legs later, she did point out that THAT shaving wasn't for her pedi well that's a must for me.I can't feel sexy unless I'm clean shaven there.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Fozzy said:


> I agree. This would be a very valid reason. What I get from the OP's posts is that the pain he's in stems from the fact that *she hasn't made him understand the reason behind it*. There may very well be a good solid reason that she's changed her mind about certain acts, but until she comes through with the communication it's not going to make any difference. Even if she started doing those acts with him now--wouldn't make any difference because it's going to be in his mind "why now, and not the last 20 years?"
> 
> The communication is the key here.


One point I would note is that she can't be held responsible for making him understand, only that she try to do so. There are things about my wife that I just don't understand (her view of herself physically, for example). She has made an effort to get me to try to understand so that we can work through it in our relationship. While I hear what she is saying and can process it intellectually, I don't truly understand it on a guy (or gut) level. But that part is on me. 

I don't get the sense that the OPs wife has made that effort, but welcome him clarifying. If she genuinely has, but he does not get it, then he needs to process it and figure out where he wants to go next.


----------



## larry.gray

Lyris said:


> Maybe she is putting him as number one by refusing a threesome because she doesn't want to share him. Maybe knowing he is happy to share her sexually is making her feel like she's not number one to him.


:iagree:

I concur on that one of three things. She may be less willing on this one because she doesn't want to see him sexual with another woman.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I agree with Lyris' post also.I did a threesome w/my ex and another female but I'd never share my DH.No f**king way.He means too much.


----------



## larry.gray

ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree with Lyris' post also.I did a threesome w/my ex and another female but I'd never share my DH.No f**king way.He means too much.


Of course it still is frigging hard to take. Yes, understandable. Logical. But hard to take.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

larry.gray said:


> Of course it still is frigging hard to take. Yes, understandable. Logical. But hard to take.


I'd have a hard time taking it if the situation was reversed.I know I would understand but it would still get to me.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> This sounds very familiar to me, as my STBW is very similar in her reasoning, and I understand and accept that. It did take a bit of work on our part to fully understand this dynamic.
> 
> The hardest part for me was getting past the apparent contradiction in this...
> 
> Lack of Love and attention = Wild sex while meeting needs, loving, respecting, adoring = Less.
> 
> Do you see how that could be very difficult to understand? Why there are so many men under the impression that women go wild for guys that treat them like sh1t? The whole basis for the nice guys finish last mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely understand.The only explanation I could give was the fact that I had such a low self esteem and was emotionally unhealthy so I didn't realize I deserved better than my ex.It took me getting my head on right before I realized I deserved a nice man who loved me for me.That's why I always say here a nice man will be loved and cherished by an emotionally healthy mature woman.
> 
> This is almost exactly how my STBW has explained her mindset. Almost kind of looking back and realizing she wasn't in her right mind. She is in a far better and healthier place now, but understanding this is why I can understand the step-son situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Along these lines, but with a humorous and less dire note...Last night my STBW said she had to take a bath and shave because she's getting a pedicure today and didn't want the person doing it feeling her stubbly legs. It's winter time so she only shaves them once a week or so, and I understand it, and it doesn't bother me or anything, but she asked if I could imagine how icky it would be to be the person having to feel them. I just stared at her, and finally asked her if she knew what she just said. She repeated herself, and I said, yeah, I'm the one who feels them every day so yeah, I can imagine...Again, this was no big deal at all, and I wasn't bothered by it, but it is an example appearing to care more about what someone else thinks than your own spouse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL I can see that bc it happens in our house occasionally.I'm a hairy little beast so I have to shave all the time but I slack a bit in the winter.But if we're going out and I'm wearing tights or whatever I will be freshly shaven
> 
> I think this may be a woman thing as every woman I have ever known has been like that  But I do think it send a message none the less. Sort of like the guy who's willing to help his friend hang drywall at the friends house, but can't be bothered to throw in a load of laundry at his own house. It's not a big deal until it becomes the norm...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, when I buried my face between her legs later, she did point out that THAT shaving wasn't for her pedi
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> well that's a must for me.I can't feel sexy unless I'm clean shaven there.
> 
> Again, just like my STBW
Click to expand...


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree with Lyris' post also.I did a threesome w/my ex and another female but I'd never share my DH.No f**king way.He means too much.


Same with STBW...


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree with Lyris' post also.I did a threesome w/my ex and another female but I'd never share my DH.No f**king way.He means too much.


Let me ask you this...We've been around here for a while, and I know you're at least a bit familiar with my story, in particular what happened with my STBW and her marriage and then step-son. Can you relate, not necessarily in specifics, but at least with being hurt so badly, wanting to hold on, needing revenge, doing things you wouldn't ordinarily do?


----------



## TheStranger

So, this thread was opened yesterday?


----------



## samyeagar

TheStranger said:


> So, this thread was opened yesterday?


Nope.


----------



## LostViking

In the end, when all is said and done, it was her twenty or more years of lying and withholding the truth from OP that has hurt him the most.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> Let me ask you this...We've been around here for a while, and I know you're at least a bit familiar with my story, in particular what happened with my STBW and her marriage and then step-son. Can you relate, not necessarily in specifics, but at least with being hurt so badly, wanting to hold on, needing revenge, doing things you wouldn't ordinarily do?


maybe in another life I could but these days I stick with letting things roll off and living for the day.Revenge and holding on makes you feel ugly inside...you hold on to the ugliness that was done to you and it becomes part of you.I'd rather throw that away now and keep the pretty things inside


----------



## RClawson

Theseus said:


> RClawson,
> 
> I greatly sympathize with your situation, but I don't think your advice to "accept it" is very helpful. The reason why it "slowly ate away at your very soul" is because you made the decision to stay 30 years with a woman who had settled for you. I wouldn't advise the OP, or anyone else, male or female, to do that.


Maybe that is true Theseus and maybe not but I do not believe the OP is anywhere close to packing his bags. As far as my advice being helpful in THIS thread give me a break. Many of these responses are some of the most childish responses I have ever read in this forum.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> *maybe in another life I could *but these days I stick with letting things roll off and living for the day.Revenge and holding on makes you feel ugly inside...you hold on to the ugliness that was done to you and it becomes part of you.I'd rather throw that away now and keep the pretty things inside


That's how she's explained things as well, and she's fallen into the same present mindset you have.

Intellectually, I can understand all of it, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with. These are issues she has had and has already worked through herself, but for me, this is new knowledge, and I need time to process it as well.

She has been very open with everything, has answered any and all questions I have ever had. No trickle truthing, minimizing. Total honesty. She has never denied who she was. This has made all the difference in the world to me and has helped our intimacy grow beyond what I ever thought possible.


----------



## jaharthur

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts said: "I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand."
> 
> I get that. But your wife isn't responsible for YOUR feelings. No one is.


That's nonsense. I am responsible for my wife's feelings. My acts and words can hurt her and that's on me. Abdication of that responsibility is going to be devastating to most relationships.


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> The fact that ANY ONE of us believes that we're "entitled" to ANYTHING is the "root" of MOST of our problems.
> 
> Vega


Why do people keep repeating their own preconceptions instead of paying attention to what the OP has said?


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> Maybe it has NOTHING to do with her husband and EVERYTHING to do with the 'thing'. But the husband is making it about himself.


Then why doesn't she tell him that?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jaharthur said:


> That's nonsense. I am responsible for my wife's feelings. My acts and words can hurt her and that's on me. Abdication of that responsibility is going to be devastating to most relationships.


Where does that responsibility end though? When does she take responsibility for her feelings and realizes that even though she feels it,doesn't mean it's correct or reality based?

Or is it always your responsibility to no end?


----------



## treyvion

nogutsnoglory said:


> So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
> I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
> Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.
> 
> Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.
> 
> Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?
> 
> I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.
> 
> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.
> 
> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.


I'm trying to determine if over these years that you have asked for the said "sexual gift", and the wife turned you down alluding that she doesn't do it or thinks it's nasty.


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> Maybe she "lied" because she knew the OP well enough that he would try to coerce her into doing something that she's NO LONGER INTERESTED IN DOING.
> 
> Just because I USED to eat Spaghetti-O's--and LOVED them--doesn't mean I want to eat them NOW.
> 
> The same 'rule' applies to sex. She may not want to engage in 'that' particular sexual activity no matter WHO she is married to. It has to do with the activity and NOT the person. But the OP is making it about the person (himself) and not about the activity.
> 
> I'm sure there are things that the OP did BEFORE he met his wife, that, even though he enjoyed it at the moment, he wouldn't want to do it NOW.
> 
> Vega


And maybe she thought he'd get his gun and shoot her.

And why is "lied" in quotation marks? That suggests you are saying she didn't lie. What's the basis for that?

Let's stop being ridiculous with statements with no basis whatsoever.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

nogutsnoglory said:


> No I am looking for a response that also shows consideration for the man. Your situation is very clear and concise. I would not want anything from my wife that upset her due to past abuse. I am not trying to hurt her at all.
> In actuality, she is the one hurting me here. I just do not think woman (most) get it.
> It hurts me she was willing to give a sexual gift to another person and not me.


Personally, I think you are being a whiny b!tch and need to get over it. No woman wants to feel obligated when it comes to sex, especially with the man who supposedly loves her. Too bad so sad.


----------



## treyvion

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally, I think you are being a whiny b!tch and need to get over it. No woman wants to feel obligated when it comes to sex, especially with the man who supposedly loves her. Too bad so sad.


What man is going to be happy that his wife shared so much of herself with others, and she enjoyed it all, and she will not do it with him. No man, that's the answer.


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> I'm not saying that everything should be swept under the rug, so to speak. But there's a difference between LYING and intentionally withholding information.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the OP should put himself is his wife's shoes. If there was something that he did a long time ago that he liked doing but not longer does--AND, he was afraid that if he TOLD his partner that, that his partner would want to do 'it' because his partner had a big EGO--what would the OP do?
> 
> I think if the OP got control of his ego, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.


No, there isn't any real difference between lying and intentionally withholding information. In legal terms, as I think because I'm a lawyer, the first is fraud and the second is concealment, but both are forms of deceit.

On the second point, if my wife had ASKED me the direct question--and I thought that was part of the OP's story--then I would give her a direct and truthful answer. And then I'd explain why something I enjoyed then is not something that I'd enjoy now.

Some women have given some good hypothetical answers as to "why not with me" that go far beyond "because."

"Because" is not a real answer, no matter what those attacking the OP say.


----------



## jaharthur

techmom said:


> I want to ask the OP, did you reveal all of your fantasies before marriage? If not, then why would you expect her to reveal all of her history?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fantasies are different than actual events. Fantasies can involve conduct that the fantasizer has NEVER done and does not WANT to do.

This stuff shouldn't be so hard.


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> I suppose mind-reading is the way to resolve all problems...right?
> 
> Seems to me that you got her all figured out. So, it doesn't really matter WHAT 'reason' she gives. She's ska-rooed no matter WHAT she says.
> 
> My vote is for the OP to either ACCEPT that she's not interested, OR to leave. But coercing her or manipulating her is NOT an option.
> 
> Vega


Mind-reading is exactly what you've been doing with the OP, so you have little standing to object when someone else does it.


----------



## samyeagar

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally, I think you are being a whiny b!tch and need to get over it. No woman wants to feel obligated when it comes to sex, especially with the man who supposedly loves her. Too bad so sad.



...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


----------



## Fozzy

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally, I think you are being a whiny b!tch and need to get over it. No woman wants to feel obligated when it comes to sex, especially with the man who supposedly loves her. Too bad so sad.


Holy cats! Kind of harsh.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


I don't know too many women who would be OK with this type of scenario.


----------



## ntamph

treyvion said:


> I don't know too many women who would be OK with this type of scenario.


It would be interesting to hear some responses to this precise scenario........


----------



## Vega

jaharthur said:


> Then why doesn't she tell him that?


Maybe she did and the OP didn't tell us that. 

Oh wait...wouldn't that be "lying"?


----------



## treyvion

ntamph said:


> It would be interesting to hear some responses to this precise scenario........


Well you know our sisters are great with double standards. I want to see how this is explained away.


----------



## Anon Pink

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


:gun:

I'd be a tad miffed.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


It would be awful and I'd probably end up in tears screaming at him something like "what's wrong with me?? You don't like my vag??? Do I smell bad??? WHAT IS IT???"

yeah,it would tear me up until I heard a logical and TRUTHFUL explanation.


----------



## treyvion

ScarletBegonias said:


> It would be awful and I'd probably end up in tears screaming at him something like "what's wrong with me?? You don't like my vag??? Do I smell bad??? WHAT IS IT???"
> 
> yeah,it would tear me up until I heard a logical and TRUTHFUL explanation.


"I don't eat you because I don't have to, nothing personal"


----------



## Vega

treyvion said:


> What man is going to be happy that his wife shared so much of herself with others, and she enjoyed it all, and she will not do it with him.


Answer: AN EMOTIONALLY SECURE man. A man who is in control of his ego. A man who knows that a healthy mature relationship has no room for ego. A man who realizes that his wife did "things" with other men BEFORE him, which has NO BEARING on _his_ relationship with her. A man who 'gets' that people can change over time. A man who knows that HE has probably changed over time as well. A man who knows that his wife isn't OBLIGATED to share ALL herself with him, and that he will NEVER have ALL of her past. A man who keeps his petty jealousies "in check" and who isn't in competition with his wife's past.

That's it for starters. Shall I go on?

Vega


----------



## ScarletBegonias

treyvion said:


> "I don't eat you because I don't have to, nothing personal"


I'd never say anything so rude to him so I don't expect a flippant reply like that.It requires a deeper explanation. Unless he wanted to turn our marriage into a warzone where I begin using that reply for things I would normally do for him happily..which is basically anything he asks of me.


----------



## samyeagar

treyvion said:


> "I don't eat you because I don't have to, nothing personal"


...and so just get over it...


----------



## 12345Person

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


I'd break all of his precious belongings and trash his car.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> It would be awful and I'd probably end up in tears screaming at him something like "what's wrong with me?? You don't like my vag??? Do I smell bad??? WHAT IS IT???"
> 
> yeah,it would tear me up until I heard a logical and TRUTHFUL explanation.


Apparently, those feelings are wrong. You are in fact a whiny b!tch with a fragile ego seeking to lord that over him to black mail him for sex acts if you raise the issue. You are not entitled to those sex acts nor are you entitled to any explanation beyond because. Further, those feelings are your own problem and your spouse has no responsibility for those feelings or to help you deal with them.

This thread has been a learning experience and certainly makes me appreciate my wife that much more.


----------



## 12345Person

Vega said:


> Answer: AN EMOTIONALLY SECURE man. A man who is in control of his ego. A man who knows that a healthy mature relationship has no room for ego. A man who realizes that his wife did "things" with other men BEFORE him, which has NO BEARING on _his_ relationship with her. A man who 'gets' that people can change over time. A man who knows that HE has probably changed over time as well. A man who knows that his wife isn't OBLIGATED to share ALL herself with him, and that he will NEVER have ALL of her past. A man who keeps his petty jealousies "in check" and who isn't in competition with his wife's past.
> 
> That's it for starters. Shall I go on?
> 
> Vega


Nope, that's a doormat with little self-worth and not someone I would ever respect


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Tall Average Guy said:


> Apparently, those feelings are wrong. You are in fact a whiny b!tch with a fragile ego seeking to lord that over him to black mail him for sex acts if you raise the issue. You are not entitled to those sex acts nor are you entitled to any explanation beyond because. Further, those feelings are your own problem and your spouse has no responsibility for those feelings or to help you deal with them.
> 
> This thread has been a learning experience and certainly makes me appreciate my wife that much more.


 I never said those things so people can stop being harsh to those who tried to put more thought into their replies and to those who tried to show understanding for OP's feelings on the matter.


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> Answer: AN EMOTIONALLY SECURE man. A man who is in control of his ego. A man who knows that a healthy mature relationship has no room for ego. A man who realizes that his wife did "things" with other men BEFORE him, which has NO BEARING on _his_ relationship with her. A man who 'gets' that people can change over time. A man who knows that HE has probably changed over time as well. *A man who knows that his wife isn't OBLIGATED to share ALL herself with him,* and that he will NEVER have ALL of her past. A man who keeps his petty jealousies "in check" and who isn't in competition with his wife's past.
> 
> That's it for starters. Shall I go on?
> 
> Vega


Obligated? No. Willingly and lovingly? Yes.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I never said those things so people can stop being harsh to those who tried to put more thought into their replies and to those who tried to show understanding for OP's feelings on the matter.


I don't think that was directed AT anything you said. It was using what others have said about how men should be, and applying it to what you said.

You are one of the reasonable ones here, one with empathy, and I know I for one respect and appreciate you


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> I don't think that was directed AT anything you said. It was using what others have said about how men should be, and applying it to what you said.
> 
> You are one of the reasonable ones here, one with empathy, and I know I for one respect and appreciate you


Thanks,I appreciate that.


----------



## Theseus

larry.gray said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I concur on that one of three things. She may be less willing on this one because she doesn't want to see him sexual with another woman.


Once again, the OP has already addressed that here. *He was NOT asking for a threesome!!!*

I wish people would stop getting so hung up on the threesome thing, because its a distraction from the underlying issue.


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> Answer: AN EMOTIONALLY SECURE man. A man who is in control of his ego. A man who knows that a healthy mature relationship has no room for ego. A man who realizes that his wife did "things" with other men BEFORE him, which has NO BEARING on _his_ relationship with her. A man who 'gets' that people can change over time. A man who knows that HE has probably changed over time as well. A man who knows that his wife isn't OBLIGATED to share ALL herself with him, and that he will NEVER have ALL of her past. A man who keeps his petty jealousies "in check" and who isn't in competition with his wife's past.
> 
> That's it for starters. Shall I go on?
> 
> Vega


I don't agree. A secure man would not allow the position of having sex acts shielded from him, which she is known by all to enjoy. It creates the image of he isn't worthy.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> I never said those things so people can stop being harsh to those who tried to put more thought into their replies and to those who tried to show understanding for OP's feelings on the matter.


I know you did not. I was being sarcastic, and I apologize for implying that you thought those things. 

But when a man said something like you did, the responses given were like my post. He was called a whiny b!tch and he was accused of trying to black mail his spouse for sex. He was accused of only being about his ego. While I agree that his feelings are his own, it was made very clear that the wife had no responsibility for it or in helping him deal with it. In fact, he is entitled to nothing more than she feels like giving him. If that is not enough, it must be due to his uncontrolled and fragile male ego.

Again, it makes me glad for my wife.


----------



## COGypsy

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


Well I can tell you that it would be the last date I had with that guy. Oral schmoral. I wouldn't have a thing to do with the kind of person that publishes their antics like the town herald. That's just trashy behavior and I wouldn't waste my time or reputation on someone who feels the world is his Penthouse Pen Pal. That is just vile and disgusting.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> I don't think that was directed AT anything you said. It was using what others have said about how men should be, and applying it to what you said.
> 
> You are one of the reasonable ones here, one with empathy, and I know I for one respect and appreciate you





Tall Average Guy said:


> I know you did not. I was being sarcastic, and I apologize for implying that you thought those things.
> 
> But when a man said something like you did, the responses given were like my post. He was called a whiny b!tch and he was accused of trying to black mail his spouse for sex. He was accused of only being about his ego. While I agree that his feelings are his own, it was made very clear that the wife had no responsibility for it or in helping him deal with it. In fact, he is entitled to nothing more than she feels like giving him. If that is not enough, it must be due to his uncontrolled and fragile male ego.
> 
> Again, it makes me glad for my wife.


I understand,I'm sorry I took offense.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> I understand,I'm sorry I took offense.


Nothing to be sorry about at all. My communication was poor and that was my fault.

With all that, I don't see much point in participating in this thread unless the OP comes back and provides some additional information.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I understand,*I'm sorry I took offense*.


Aww...no need to be sorry  See what we all did right there? We communicated, you, me, and TAG. We got it all straightened out, and nobody has to feel bad


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> ...you're out with your mans friends and one of them starts down memory lane of how your man used to be known for how good he was at eating pvssy, and how much he liked it...then it dawns on you that he hasn't gone down on you ever, and then you think of the non verbal clues that he actively avoids it with you...and then you remember when you were getting to know each other, how he told you it wasn't his thing and he'd never done it, and wouldn't do it...


See, this would never happen because I wouldn't ever have married (or dated for very long) a man who didn't give oral because that's hugely important to me - I can't come without clitoral stimulation. I wouldn't have been with him 20 years, for sure!

OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

norajane said:


> See, this would never happen because I wouldn't ever have married (or dated for very long) a man who didn't give oral because that's hugely important to me - I can't come without clitoral stimulation. I wouldn't have been with him 20 years, for sure!
> 
> OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life.


well then there's that LOL


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> See, this would never happen because I wouldn't ever have married (or dated for very long) a man who didn't give oral because that's hugely important to me - I can't come without clitoral stimulation. I wouldn't have been with him 20 years, for sure!
> 
> OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life.


Then go ahead and change the specifics to something that would be possible for you. Your man says no way, no how, never did it, then it's trickle truthed by others that not only did he do it in the past with/for other women, he enjoyed it, but still won't with you, and his reason is "Because"


----------



## Married but Happy

norajane said:


> OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life.


Yeah, and having sex as a regular part of one's sex life is usually an expectation too! And we see that often doesn't work out! :scratchhead:


----------



## TiggyBlue

norajane said:


> See, this would never happen because I wouldn't ever have married (or dated for very long) a man who didn't give oral because that's hugely important to me - I can't come without clitoral stimulation. I wouldn't have been with him 20 years, for sure!
> 
> OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life.


See that's what I think, I totally understand the lying and deceiving being a massive issue.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

"because" isn't an answer to anything.I've been telling my 11 year old that for YEARS.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> See, this would never happen because I wouldn't ever have married (or dated for very long) a man who didn't give oral because that's hugely important to me - I can't come without clitoral stimulation. I wouldn't have been with him 20 years, for sure!
> 
> *OP shouldn't have married his wife if he felt that threesomes, anal, and bondage were that important to him as a regular part of his sex life*.


Again, there is no suggestion that any of these things are the issue, in fact, the OP explicity said he isn't looking for a threesome.

The real issue isn't about the specific sex acts themselves, so much as it is about willingly and eagerly giving to other men, things that most men equate with love, her telling him no way, him being OK with that, then finding out from a third party that not only had she done those things, but had actively enjoyed them, so why the refusal with her HUSBAND?

Again, there is no indication of ANY specific acts from the OP. All the things you just said are pure speculation, and the fact that the OP did not specifically list any specific acts leads me to believe that this is about way more than just the acts, and yet most of the women on this thread seem to be the ones who ultimately get back to the acts, and it's then men exploring the emotional impacts...


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts...if you are still reading, is it obvious yet that no one else's answer is going to help you?

What *was* your wife's actual answer? All I saw you said was that her answer was immature.


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> Then go ahead and change the specifics to something that would be possible for you. Your man says no way, no how, never did it, then it's trickle truthed by others that not only did he do it in the past with/for other women, he enjoyed it, but still won't with you, and his reason is "Because"


I honestly can't think of anything. If it was important to me, it would have come up early in the relationship, long before marriage. It it didn't come up, it's not that important to me. 

I don't care if he did other stuff with other people that we do or don't do.

If you're talking about the lying part only, then sure, I wouldn't like that. But if he never mentioned things he did with other people, I doubt it would be that big a deal to me t find out about something from his friends. I have never asked for details about his sex life with other people because I don't care what he did.


----------



## Vega

treyvion said:


> I don't agree. A secure man would not allow the position of having sex acts shielded from him, which she is known by all to enjoy. *It creates the image of he isn't worthy*.


In WHOSE eyes? His, hers or his friends? (Hopefully, you won't include his friends...)

An image is just that: An *image*. It isn't real. It isn't FACT.


----------



## norajane

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, and having sex as a regular part of one's sex life is usually an expectation too! And we see that often doesn't work out! :scratchhead:


That's a different issue, isn't it? OP has said he and his wife have sex, that they are experimental with each other, and she's an active participant.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam...but...haven't you ever been young and in love and done something like write long poetry for a girl, or sit up all night with her talking...or stalked her in some way...or simply obsessed about her or whatever? And now in retrospect, this seems foolish, you were young, you certainly weren't really in love (as young people don't seem to know what real love is many times), and you'd never act that way again.

So then years later you are with the REAL love of your life, as adults, when you know what real love entails...and she finds out about your obsession with the girl when you were young. Now she feels hurt because she thinks this means you "loved" or were more into that girl than your current girl.

This might not be you, but I guarantee this applies to MANY young men.

Yet...these same men would try to argue that the young, uninformed sex acts their wives may have engaged in when young actually MEANT that they were MORE INTO those young dudes than they are with their husbands.

We all do things when we are young that are not completely informed choices. Sometimes they end up being fun, sometimes it is a disaster. Either way, we were young. We did stuff. It means NOTHING about their future.


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> Again, there is no suggestion that any of these things are the issue, in fact, the OP explicity said he isn't looking for a threesome.


The OP did specify in one of his posts that the three things she did with her ex that she won't do with him are threesomes, anal, and bondage.

He later clarified when Faithful Wife asked him and said that no, this thread was not about him trying to get his wife to have a threesome.



> The real issue isn't about the specific sex acts themselves, so much as it is about willingly and eagerly giving to other men, things that most men equate with love, her telling him no way, him being OK with that, then finding out from a third party that not only had she done those things, but had actively enjoyed them, so why the refusal with her HUSBAND?


If she's not into those three sex acts themselves anymore, then she's not into them and it's not about her husband but about the sex acts themselves. 

The OP, obviously doesn't see it that way. Hence, their problem.

And I will disagree that sex is about love, and doing certain sex acts is always about love, all the time. She was dating that guy. She may not have loved him at all. He may not have loved her. They may have liked each other enough to have sex during a time when they were exploring and learning and trying new things and that was exciting. Or they may have loved each other for a time, or thought they did. Who knows? But it's not a guarantee that she - nor her ex - did any particular sex act out of love. 



> Again, there is no indication of ANY specific acts from the OP. All the things you just said are pure speculation, and the fact that the OP did not specifically list any specific acts leads me to believe that this is about way more than just the acts, and yet most of the women on this thread seem to be the ones who ultimately get back to the acts, and it's then men exploring the emotional impacts...


That's simply not true. He did mention those three things.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think that it is a reasonable assumption based on what he has said that he would like her to engage in specific acts (although I have not read what those might be, but I have not read a good part of this thread)

I would acknowledge that she may have lied but I see it as her right to keep her past private. -but she would have been better off saying it was not his business rather than lying. I would put this more into the "white lie" category which is done more for convenience or to avoid uncomfortable situations rather than to hurt someone.

Obviously since he married her without the expectation that they would be engaging in these practices he has not been harmed.
(other than his irrational male ego)


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> In WHOSE eyes? His, hers or his friends? (Hopefully, you won't include his friends...)
> 
> An image is just that: An *image*. It isn't real. It isn't FACT.


Over time an image can become real. It will erode someone's self worth. If you think psychological tactics don't work, then why would the military spend millions of dollars for techniques to mentally break and weaken someone's resolve?

So the image will be in the friends eyes who know. The husband may KNOW for a fact he IS worthy, but the wifes ACTIONS continually potray that he is not. Eventually he will accept that to HER he is not worthy and it does not feel good, even if he is strong enough to realize that TO HER he may not be worthy, which is BS, that he IS worthy.

Most of the marginalizing and reducing actions work through accumulation and time... It takes time, but you will be weakened.


----------



## Faithful Wife

From the OP's first post:

"My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), *and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.*

*I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife*. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and *I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man*, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men."


Gee, I wonder why some of us were confused about whether the OP wanted to get some of the same for himself? Including threesomes.


----------



## Thor

nogutsnoglory said:


> Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past? Both


Sorry, can't get the quotes to sequence.

I tried to reclaim some territory for both reasons. She willingly and prodigiously gave previous boyfriends some experiences she never did with me. Basic normal stuff, like sex in the car, or at night on the beach.

So I wanted to experience these things, and I wanted to own the territory as it were. Take away the exclusiveness of it from the previous boyfriends. When we walk the beach I don't want her thinking about being out there with other men having sex.

None of it has gone well. She said out on the beach "This isn't as exciting as I thought it would be". That was the end of that for me.

I know some women will see this as a statement of owning the woman, but it is nothing of the sort. Is me wanting to be her one and only _today_. If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said: "If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive."

So we aren't even allowed to have cherished memories of our past lovers?

Does that only apply to women, or should husbands also never think fondly of past experiences?


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> Sorry, can't get the quotes to sequence.
> 
> I tried to reclaim some territory for both reasons. She willingly and prodigiously gave previous boyfriends some experiences she never did with me. Basic normal stuff, like sex in the car, or at night on the beach.
> 
> So I wanted to experience these things, and I wanted to own the territory as it were. Take away the exclusiveness of it from the previous boyfriends. When we walk the beach I don't want her thinking about being out there with other men having sex.
> 
> None of it has gone well. She said out on the beach "This isn't as exciting as I thought it would be". That was the end of that for me.
> 
> I know some women will see this as a statement of owning the woman, but it is nothing of the sort. Is me wanting to be her one and only _today_. If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive.


It sure does not. Thanks for putting this into words.


----------



## norajane

Here you go, post #74 on this thread:



nogutsnoglory said:


> *That was not the only thing I found out about, anal, bondage, yep*
> Jealousy is healthy, normal and allowed, I will not just pretend to not be bothered because it is taboo to admit having jealousy


"That" in the above sentence was a reply to a poster who was referring to threesomes.


----------



## treyvion

nogutsnoglory said:


> That was not the only thing I found out about, anal, bondage, yep
> Jealousy is healthy, normal and allowed, I will not just pretend to not be bothered because it is taboo to admit having jealousy


I didn't see this part before of the list of things you found. Have you actually been denied anal and some more aggressive sex approaching bondage?

I don't think threesomes you can get mad about unless you want to risk your marriage.


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> Thor said: "If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive."
> 
> So we aren't even allowed to have cherished memories of our past lovers?
> 
> Does that only apply to women, or should husbands also never think fondly of past experiences?


Yes, you are allowed to have cherished memories. The issue is let's say you have an old favorite song you still play regularly. When you met your future husband you told him it was something you'd liked forever, but it had no particular meaning. It isn't a romantic song even.

So you lied to him about it during dating.

Meanwhile, you also lied and said you never liked the idea of sex in a car or van, and never did it.

Then years later he finds out it was "your song" with a particular boyfriend. You two would play it on his car stereo as you two had wild sex in the back. Many times. And now it is on your iPod, and you still pull out the old vinyl and play it on the home stereo once in a while.

So this isn't just a cherished memory like an old prom photo in a photo album sitting in a closet somewhere. This is a lie about something hubby would be interested in trying (sex in a car), and it was a lie about you not wanting or trying it.

So what is hubby to think today? Why did you lie? Why would you happily do something normal and common with other men but not him? And what might he think you recall when that song comes on the radio or is in the soundtrack to a tv episode?

I think this is probably much like OP's situation where not only did the wife lie, but whenever a reference to the previous stuff pops up in a movie or on tv, she likely recalls those previous things. The OP naturally would feel slighted and betrayed.


----------



## samyeagar

Here is something along these same lines...same principle but much less impact. The first time my whole STBW's extended family got together and I was there was last Thanksgiving. I noticed that all the women, my STBW's mom, sister, daughter even made plates for their men who were sitting down. They brought them their plates before they got their own. It was pretty obviously a learned thing. My STBW made no move to make my plate for me, and we got our plates together. After we sat down, her daughter mentioned that it was weird seeing that, that she was used to seeing her mom get her mans plate too. I am more than capable of getting my own plate so that was no issue, but it did make me wonder why she didn't even offer that simple act of caring, nurturing, taking care of her man to me, when she obviously had done it for her ex-husband, and it was so ingraned to the point that not doing it for me was noticed and pointed out as strange by others.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"I know some women will see this as a statement of owning the woman, but it is nothing of the sort."

As a man I see it as you being insecure in your manhood. Your man hood should come from within and not be based on what your woman will do for you compared to whatever she may have done in the past. I'm guessing that is why you picked the name Thor also. Get a grip.


----------



## ntamph

samyeagar said:


> Here is something along these same lines...same principle but much less impact. The first time my whole STBW's extended family got together and I was there was last Thanksgiving. I noticed that all the women, my STBW's mom, sister, daughter even made plates for their men who were sitting down. They brought them their plates before they got their own. It was pretty obviously a learned thing. My STBW made no move to make my plate for me, and we got our plates together. After we sat down, her daughter mentioned that it was weird seeing that, that she was used to seeing her mom get her mans plate too. I am more than capable of getting my own plate so that was no issue, but it did make me wonder why she didn't even offer that simple act of caring, nurturing, taking care of her man to me, when she obviously had done it for her ex-husband, and it was so ingraned to the point that not doing it for me was noticed and pointed out as strange by others.


This is weird.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> Here you go, post #74 on this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> "That" in the above sentence was a reply to a poster who was referring to threesomes.


Fair enough. Actual acts were mentioned, however, he did clarify that he was not using this issue to get those things out of her. He just wants to understand why.


----------



## aug

Thor said:


> So what is hubby to think today? Why did you lie? Why would you happily do something normal and common with other men but not him? And what might he think you recall when that song comes on the radio or is in the soundtrack to a tv episode?


okay, I'll bite. Perhaps the spouse got fatter? And the car got smaller.


Is the OP's wife jaded? Very jaded? "Been there, done that" attitude?


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> Fair enough. Actual acts were mentioned, however, he did clarify that he was not using this issue to get those things out of her. He just wants to understand why.


I dont' know how you can say that when this was part of his very first post in the thread:



> now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and *for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.*


and then there was also this:


> Originally Posted by *nogutsnoglory*
> _Do you want to try these things because you want to, or because she did these things in the past? *Both*_


----------



## samyeagar

ntamph said:


> This is weird.


What part is weird? The part where the women fix their men's plates? Not really that weird, a bit old fashioned, traditional, but not unheard of.


----------



## ntamph

Ughhh..........these threads can make you go crazy.

Like I said earlier, I would be happy with an overall effort to make our sex life as good as it can be, and not focus on one thing here or there.

But, if it were a situation like "we only do it missionary once a week in the dark and never anything else but Fabio got it on a beach, on a roller coaster and a plane in every position known to man" then I'd be pissed.


----------



## ntamph

samyeagar said:


> What part is weird? The part where the women fix their men's plates? Not really that weird, a bit old fashioned, traditional, but not unheard of.


That she wouldn't do it for you.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

usmarriedguy said:


> I think that it is a reasonable assumption based on what he has said that he would like her to engage in specific acts (although I have not read what those might be, but I have not read a good part of this thread)
> 
> I would acknowledge that she may have lied *but I see it as her right to keep her past private*. -but she would have been better off saying it was not his business rather than lying. I would put this more into the "white lie" category which is done more for convenience or to avoid uncomfortable situations rather than to hurt someone.
> 
> Obviously since he married her without the expectation that they would be engaging in these practices he has not been harmed.
> (other than his irrational male ego)


(in bold) nonsense. A potential spouse does not have any such right. one might as well say it is a 'right' to present oneself to a fiance' as a person quite different than what you really are. All one has to do is leave out enough of their past.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> I dont' know how you can say that when this was part of his very first post in the thread:
> 
> 
> 
> and then there was also this:


And the thing is, it really seems like the issue is more that she flat out rejected rather than trying to understand. I also imagine that he probably didn't communicate all that well either

My STBW has some things that are off the table that she's done in the past, but we've talked about them, and I understand why, and she helped me understand why it was not rejection. The point is, we communicated without judgement or defense.

She has suggested trying some of her previous no way no hows if I wanted to. Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't because I understand her feelings, and just the fact that she would be willing to is more than enough to show me how safe she feels, how much she trusts me, loves me.


----------



## Thor

usmarriedguy said:


> "I know some women will see this as a statement of owning the woman, but it is nothing of the sort."
> 
> As a man I see it as you being insecure in your manhood. Your man hood should come from within and not be based on what your woman will do for you compared to whatever she may have done in the past. I'm guessing that is why you picked the name Thor also. Get a grip.


Wrong on both counts.


----------



## Anon Pink

Thor said:


> Sorry, can't get the quotes to sequence.
> 
> I tried to reclaim some territory for both reasons. She willingly and prodigiously gave previous boyfriends some experiences she never did with me. Basic normal stuff, like sex in the car, or at night on the beach.
> 
> So I wanted to experience these things, and I wanted to own the territory as it were. Take away the exclusiveness of it from the previous boyfriends. When we walk the beach I don't want her thinking about being out there with other men having sex.
> 
> None of it has gone well. She said out on the beach "*This isn't as exciting as I thought it would be". That was the end of that for me.*
> 
> *]If my husband, or anyone else's husband EVER EVER said something so incredibly painful, unforgettably hurtful, I would walk off the beach, pack my stuff and NEVER look back!*
> 
> 
> 
> I know some women will see this as a statement of owning the woman, but it is nothing of the sort. Is me wanting to be her one and only _today_. If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive.


I don't see that as a statement that means anything other than I've settled for you, but you just don't do it for me!

Inexcusable! Tell me you are NOT still with this woman?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's pretty clear to me who are the good wives of tam and who are the bad wives.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.


----------



## samyeagar

ntamph said:


> That she wouldn't do it for you.


Ahh, gotcha...I did ask her about it later. She said she didn't think I'd really want to be catered to like that, and she was right. As I said, I am more than capable, but I did explain how it came off to me, and she understood what I was saying and asked in all seriousness if that was actually something I wanted because she would be more than happy to. I told her no, just the offer was good enough.


----------



## norajane

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
> I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.


:iagree:

He's certainly the only one that matters or that I ever think about!


----------



## Deejo

I don't care about what she did with someone else. I care about what she is going to willingly, lovingly, and enthusiastically do with me.

Take the willing, loving, and enthusiastic out of the equation and there isn't much to discuss, whether it's a simple gesture of kindness or appreciation, or reverse cowgirl wearing a Wonder Woman outfit, playing a kazoo.


----------



## Thor

aug said:


> okay, I'll bite. Perhaps the spouse got fatter? And the car got smaller.
> 
> 
> Is the OP's wife jaded? Very jaded? "Been there, done that" attitude?


Not in my case at all. I don't want to hijack or get off on tangents from OPs specific case. I will say that my wife definitely did the Wild Party Girl as a single and intentionally deceived me about it. She selected me as a safe high income provider. She gave me enough of a taste of her sexual liberation when we dated to make think that was what I could expect into marriage, yet she then severely back tracked after the wedding.

So yes I resent knowing she did things with others but won't with me. Not even crazy kinky stuff like 3 somes or anal. Basic normal stuff.

Then one finds out years later that this was a happy fun thing for her but somehow I am not within the circle of those she is willing to give this to?


----------



## Anon Pink

The kazoo chipped my front teeth, it's off the freaking table!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Deejo said:


> reverse cowgirl wearing a Wonder Woman outfit, playing a kazoo.


You've been chatting with my husband,haven't you? Damn him.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
> I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.


OK, to be specific then.

My family has gone to the same beach town for vacation for 40+ years. The next town has a boardwalk with all the arcades, rides, etc. She used to go there with at least 2 of her boyfriends. They had sex on the beach and under the boardwalk, and in the car, and in motels, and who knows what else in that town.

One summer we were walking the boardwalk with our young teen kids and she just had to mention how she used to come to that boardwalk with boyfriends and they would win her stuffed animal prizes at the arcades. They would play Skee-Ball. Etc.

I don't believe she didn't think about their other games.


----------



## Anon Pink

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
> I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.


IDK... If I found out my husband enjoyed something with a previous lover that he refuses to do with me, I would wonder how he defined "enjoy." 

I keep going back to the error in the basic premise. If she enjoyed it, yet refuses now, she didn't really enjoy it or she simply doesn't enjoy you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's pretty clear to me who are the good wives of tam and who are the bad wives.


It's pretty clear to me why some wives aren't into their tam husbands.


----------



## Thor

Anon Pink said:


> I don't see that as a statement that means anything other than I've settled for you, but you just don't do it for me!
> 
> Inexcusable! Tell me you are NOT still with this woman?


:banghead:

But, all the kids are seniors this year, high school and college.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> I don't believe she didn't think about their other games.


Why wouldn't you believe she was just thinking about the things she described? Honestly asking here bc I can't wrap my mind around being with my husband and kids(if we had any together) and reminiscing for even a second about sex w/former boyfriends.

Very similar things happen to us all the time so I sincerely hope my husband believes I'm not thinking about old sex when we're talking about previous fun activities with old partners.


----------



## Anon Pink

Thor said:


> :banghead:
> 
> But, all the kids are seniors this year, high school and college.


Bad Thor. Your wife is either extremely stupid, extremely callous, or both! And you want to be with this woman?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Anon Pink said:


> IDK... If I found out my husband enjoyed something with a previous lover that he refuses to do with me, I would wonder how he defined "enjoy."
> 
> I keep going back to the error in the basic premise. If she enjoyed it, yet refuses now, she didn't really enjoy it or she simply doesn't enjoy you.


I think that's where my disconnect is with the topic.If someone truly enjoyed doing something with a partner,they would want to experience more of it from future lovers.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why wouldn't you believe she was just thinking about the things she described? Honestly asking here bc I can't wrap my mind around being with my husband and kids(if we had any together) and reminiscing for even a second about sex w/former boyfriends.
> 
> Very similar things happen to us all the time so I sincerely hope my husband believes I'm not thinking about old sex when we're talking about previous fun activities with old partners.


Sex was a big part of her relationships with previous bf's. Why wouldn't she remember the sex part?

No, I don't think every time she walks onto a beach she thinks of sex with another man. I don't think she thinks about sex under the boardwalk every time we've taken our kids.

I do believe she remembers it at times. And for sure I think of it at times, especially when I get rejected. We've had vans forever, yet she always had some excuse to reject sex in the van or in a car with me.

Now if you are doing fun stuff with your hubby and something comes up about a previous partner, it should be ok to mention it. But I do think it should be a rare occurrence. A man wants to be special to his wife. Her _frequent_ comments about previous men is a big ego hit.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Thor said: "If every time she hears a particular song she thinks about wild sex in the back of her bf's van, that does not make me feel very exclusive."
> 
> *So we aren't even allowed to have cherished memories of our past lovers?*
> 
> Does that only apply to women, or should husbands also never think fondly of past experiences?


Have your cherished memories, but I don't want to hear about them. It's the past right? Well keep it there.


----------



## Thor

Anon Pink said:


> Bad Thor. Your wife is either extremely stupid, extremely callous, or both! And you want to be with this woman?


Yes, bad Thor!

I think she is callous and lacks any empathy. The good stuff is good with her, but the bad parts are terrible. I am a classic case of putting too much emphasis on staying because of kids, and her knowing just how much to give to string me along with hope.

The timeline to resolution is very very short now.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> Sex was a big part of her relationships with previous bf's. Why wouldn't she remember the sex part?i don't know,I can only say that I choose not to remember the sex stuff.It's not even a blip on the radar these days.
> 
> No, I don't think every time she walks onto a beach she thinks of sex with another man. I don't think she thinks about sex under the boardwalk every time we've taken our kids.
> 
> I do believe she remembers it at times. And for sure I think of it at times, especially when I get rejected. We've had vans forever, yet she always had some excuse to reject sex in the van or in a car with me.She'd have to provide real and truthful reasons for why.There has to be a reason.Either her confidence level is different than it used to be,she's more sensible in her sexual views than she once was...SOMETHING other than an excuse.
> 
> Now if you are doing fun stuff with your hubby and something comes up about a previous partner, it should be ok to mention it. But I do think it should be a rare occurrence. A man wants to be special to his wife. Her _frequent_ comments about previous men is a big ego hit.Absolutely agree.We keep the ex talk to a minimum.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Have your cherished memories, but I don't want to hear about them. It's the past right? Well keep it there.


Exactly, Sam. So why does this OP insist on asking for details? As far as I can tell, the OP's wife did NOT ever want to let him hear about her past, right? And she has every right not to tell him. This whole thread is about him insisting she DOES tell him.


----------



## 12345Person

It's apparent to me that this thread is filled with many men and women with little self-worth and low self-esteem.

I am taking notes.


----------



## BradWesley

In reality, one or more of the Ex BF(s), were probably freaks in the bedroom. She did things for them because of who they were, and how they handled her. After they broke up her first thoughts probably included, "Thank god, I don't have to do that again"

It's like comparing an A+ versus a B, in performance.

By lying to him, she is in reality protecting both his ego and libido.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Exactly, Sam. So why does this OP insist on asking for details? As far as I can tell, the OP's wife did NOT ever want to let him hear about her past, right? And she has every right not to tell him. This whole thread is about him insisting she DOES tell him.


Hey! You got the


> function working
> 
> It is my understanding that he didn't find out from her, but rather someone talking about the past with her when he was there, and that got him asking questions to make sense of what he had been told, and what he was presently hearing.
> 
> My STBW has given me details of things that she thought were important for me to know. Not bragging, or to rub it in or anything like that, but she wanted me to hear certain things straight from her rather than someone else at a later time. Her concern was that if I found out later about some things, that it might look like she was lying, or hiding things from me. She is a very smart woman. She gets it.


----------



## Deejo

Anon Pink said:


> The kazoo chipped my front teeth, it's off the freaking table!


It's always a risk with the kazoo, but the slide flute and duck call just aren't the same.

I'll emphasize that I have another simple caveat, I can't, cannot, hurt my partner. I have no idea why this is ever present in my mind, but if she is not enjoying, something is causing her discomfort and/or pain, I want no part of it.

I can understand why a man may question, or feel 'less than' in terms of sex acts that a partner may have done prior to their relationship.

But I can also attest that the 'act' doesn't equal 'value', or the benefits derived from having loving, committed sex. It's an experience. Sometimes a great and thrilling experience. Other times the experience doesn't nearly measure up to the perception of the experience.

If your spouse is not giving you an answer to your satisfaction, I'm comfortable laying out the possible 'why's'

1. She's ashamed
2. Wives and mothers don't DO that. Role resolution between nurturing mother and hyper-sexed wife can be challenging (Had this happen in my marriage)
3. You have grown apart. She doesn't feel attracted, safe, secure, valued ... insert important relationship touch-point of your choice.

If she knows you are angry about it, or resentful, she's going to feel even less inclined to discuss it, let alone act on it.


----------



## samyeagar

BradWesley said:


> In reality, one or more of the Ex BF(s), were probably freaks in the bedroom. She did things for them because of who they were, and how they handled her. After they broke up her first thoughts probably included, "Thank god, I don't have to do that again"
> 
> It's like comparing an A+ versus a B, in performance.
> 
> *By lying to him, she is in reality protecting both his ego and libido*.


And then when the truth comes out from someone else, she is nothing but a liar.


----------



## inarut

samyeagar said:


> Here is something along these same lines...same principle but much less impact. The first time my whole STBW's extended family got together and I was there was last Thanksgiving. I noticed that all the women, my STBW's mom, sister, daughter even made plates for their men who were sitting down. They brought them their plates before they got their own. It was pretty obviously a learned thing. My STBW made no move to make my plate for me, and we got our plates together. After we sat down, her daughter mentioned that it was weird seeing that, that she was used to seeing her mom get her mans plate too. I am more than capable of getting my own plate so that was no issue, but it did make me wonder why she didn't even offer that simple act of caring, nurturing, taking care of her man to me, when she obviously had done it for her ex-husband, and it was so ingraned to the point that not doing it for me was noticed and pointed out as strange by others.


I don't know if this applies to her but we do this in my family. I grew up in a family where, especially on the holidays the women waited on and served the men. We did all the cooking, all the cleaning and shopping, serving and the men did nothing. Nothing at all but sit in front of the tv or at the dinner table waiting. They didn't lift a finger. I resented it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

BradWesley said:


> In reality, one or more of the Ex BF(s), were probably freaks in the bedroom. She did things for them because of who they were, and how they handled her. After they broke up her first thoughts probably included, "Thank god, I don't have to do that again"yup.
> 
> It's like comparing an A+ versus a B, in performance.
> 
> By lying to him, she is in reality protecting both his ego and libido.in this situation you're really screwed either way.You tell the truth and then you have to deal with your man feeling insecure and hurt.You lie and then have to worry he'll find out someday and crucify you for lying in addition to "depriving" him of your former freaky self.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> She'd have to provide real and truthful reasons for why.There has to be a reason.Either her confidence level is different than it used to be,she's more sensible in her sexual views than she once was...SOMETHING other than an excuse.


The real answer is complicated. I think the majority of the reason is the effects of her childhood sex abuse. She was a normal sexually active teen, starting maybe a couple years sooner than most, and she dated men 4+ years older than her so she was able to participate in more mature dating. Her bf's had wheels and money.

We started with some pretty good sex but as the wedding neared she started having lots of emotional issues with sex. There was a lot more than just sex in our relationship. We're a great match in many ways. I think though she really did pick me as a Safe Nice Guy (just like her dad) for husband.

I don't think she really knew why she was unable to face the idea of some of those things. Sex as a whole was deeply problematic for her. I was not informed, and she provided just enough to string me along. Then she got pregnant...

On one level I understand the emotional trauma issues related to her abuse. on the other hand I know she was capable of hiding all kinds of truths from me for years just to keep her Safe Nice Guy High Earning Husband from leaving. Emotionally it hurts like f'n h3ll to see two songs on her iPod which are "their song" from 2 previous bf's of over 30 years ago!!

She is better about making an effort with the sex in the past couple of years. But she still has no insight into how deeply she has been traumatized nor how dysfunctional she is. And she is unwilling to meaningfully address the issues.


----------



## BradWesley

samyeagar said:


> And then when the truth comes out from someone else, she is nothing but a liar.


It may be just one guy, who he does not know, only his wife. How will he find out?


----------



## samyeagar

inarut said:


> I don't know of this applies to her but we do this in my family. I grew up in a family where, especially on the holidays the women waited on and served the men. We did all the cooking, all the cleaning and shopping, serving and the men did nothing. Nothing at all but sit in front of the tv or at the dinner table waiting. They didn't lift a finger. I resented it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That sounds pretty much spot on with my STBW's family. 

Well, I am a pretty good cook, and the past two Thanksgivings, I have done almost all the cooking, with the women playing a supporting role in the kitchen. It was quite the shock to most of them. Granted, I don't do much cleaning up if I did the cooking...


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> The real answer is complicated. I think the majority of the reason is the effects of her childhood sex abuse. She was a normal sexually active teen, starting maybe a couple years sooner than most, and she dated men 4+ years older than her so she was able to participate in more mature dating. Her bf's had wheels and money.
> 
> We started with some pretty good sex but as the wedding neared she started having lots of emotional issues with sex. There was a lot more than just sex in our relationship. We're a great match in many ways. I think though she really did pick me as a Safe Nice Guy (just like her dad) for husband.
> 
> I don't think she really knew why she was unable to face the idea of some of those things. Sex as a whole was deeply problematic for her. I was not informed, and she provided just enough to string me along. Then she got pregnant...
> 
> On one level I understand the emotional trauma issues related to her abuse. on the other hand I know she was capable of hiding all kinds of truths from me for years just to keep her Safe Nice Guy High Earning Husband from leaving. Emotionally it hurts like f'n h3ll to see two songs on her iPod which are "their song" from 2 previous bf's of over 30 years ago!!
> 
> She is better about making an effort with the sex in the past couple of years. But she still has no insight into how deeply she has been traumatized nor how dysfunctional she is. And she is unwilling to meaningfully address the issues.


Your frustration is justified,imho. sexual trauma is tough to overcome but not impossible if you do the work. It's brutal but worth the effort.She's missing out on a lot by not getting her emotional issues straightened out


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> in this situation you're really screwed either way.You tell the truth and then you have to deal with your man feeling insecure and hurt.You lie and then have to worry he'll find out someday and crucify you for lying in addition to "depriving" him of your former freaky self.


I think there is room for a supportive discussion of one's past.

"I enjoyed dating him/her at the time. We did some fun stuff. Ultimately, though, the relationship was doomed because we just had different values/goals/desires/interests/etc. I'm so glad I found you!"

"I tried some freaky stuff. It was fun in a way, but it wasn't fulfilling. Looking back now I see it differently than I did then. I much prefer the kinds of things we do now, it makes me feel much more loved. If there is something you want to try, let's talk about it."

Lying about the past is a huge landmine waiting to explode.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> I think there is room for a supportive discussion of one's past.
> 
> "I enjoyed dating him/her at the time. We did some fun stuff. Ultimately, though, the relationship was doomed because we just had different values/goals/desires/interests/etc. I'm so glad I found you!"
> 
> "I tried some freaky stuff. It was fun in a way, but it wasn't fulfilling. Looking back now I see it differently than I did then. I much prefer the kinds of things we do now, it makes me feel much more loved. If there is something you want to try, let's talk about it."
> 
> Lying about the past is a huge landmine waiting to explode.


Thankfully,that's how it ended up for my DH and me.I was lucky that he was emotionally mature enough to understand instead of getting hurt and insecure about it.


----------



## samyeagar

Thor said:


> I think there is room for a supportive discussion of one's past.
> 
> "I enjoyed dating him/her at the time. We did some fun stuff. Ultimately, though, the relationship was doomed because we just had different values/goals/desires/interests/etc. I'm so glad I found you!"
> 
> "I tried some freaky stuff. It was fun in a way, but it wasn't fulfilling. Looking back now I see it differently than I did then. I much prefer the kinds of things we do now, it makes me feel much more loved. If there is something you want to try, let's talk about it."
> 
> Lying about the past is a huge landmine waiting to explode.


This is the way my STBW has helped me with her past. She has been open, understanding and reassuring. Trust is never going to be an issue. She has never gotten defensive, and never once told me to just deal with it or get over it. In turn, I have been very sure not to be accusing, make her feel judged, shamed, or guilty. I have never thought any less of, nor felt any lack of respect. We both have empathy for each other, and our communication styles match.


----------



## Faithful Wife

> *It is my understanding that he didn't find out from her, but rather someone talking about the past with her when he was there, and that got him asking questions to make sense of what he had been told, and what he was presently hearing.*
> 
> My STBW has given me details of things that she thought were important for me to know. Not bragging, or to rub it in or anything like that, but she wanted me to hear certain things straight from her rather than someone else at a later time. Her concern was that if I found out later about some things, that it might look like she was lying, or hiding things from me. She is a very smart woman. She gets it.



On the bolded part, yes that is how I understand it, too.

So how is it her fault?

She didn't ever want to tell him, for her own reasons.

He found out by other means.

She WANTED to leave it in the past.

She did not throw it in his face.

So....:scratchhead:

Your other statement was something like "let's leave it in the past then".

Isn't that exactly what she tried to do?


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> Thankfully,that's how it ended up for my DH and me.*I was lucky that he was emotionally mature enough to understand instead of getting hurt and insecure about it*.


I imagine he was hurt and insecure on some level, but it sounds like you two are able to communicate openly and honestly, and realize it or not, you are probably the reason the hurt and insecurity never spilled over.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! You got the
> 
> 
> On the bolded part, yes that is how I understand it, too.
> 
> So how is it her fault?
> 
> She didn't ever want to tell him, for her own reasons.
> 
> He found out by other means.
> 
> She WANTED to leave it in the past.
> 
> She did not throw it in his face.
> 
> So....:scratchhead:
> 
> Your other statement was something like "let's leave it in the past then".
> 
> Isn't that exactly what she tried to do?
> 
> 
> 
> See this is exactly the issue. She wanted to keep it there, but the past ALWAYS has a way of creeping back up, and often at the worst possible time. The fact that she WANTED to keep it there doesn't change the fact that it didn't stay there.
> 
> My STBW understands this. She didn't really want to tell me some of the things she did, but she knew there was a remote chance I might find out later on, somewhere down the line from someone other than her, so she was up front with me. She didn't want to risk even the appearance of her trying to hide anything from me, lying by omission. She wanted to make sure there was no bait and switch. She wanted to give me that choice now.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cosmos

_Over 20 years ago_, the OP's W performed certain acts that, when asked by the OP, she airbrushed from her past. Since then, they have married and, from what I gather, had a happy, fulfilling marriage...

Fast forward to some mindless friend revisiting the W's distant past within earshot of the OP, and the OP finds himself questioning his value as a lover and husband...

The OP confronts his W who, for whatever reason (embarrassment?) doesn't provide him with a suitable explanation, and he feels hurt, deceived and deprived - particularly as he's under the impression that she actually _enjoyed_ what she did all those years ago...

The OP now feels that his only remedy is to experience for himself what his W did over 20 years ago, but his wife isn't prepared to do so. Why would an otherwise loving W (and we have no reason to believe that she isn't) refuse to do this for her H, and why did she airbrush this information out of her past in the first place?



She didn't enjoy those sex acts 20 odd years ago. Had she done so, why would she deprive herself of something she enjoyed so much for the next 20 odd years?


She didn't admit to them because she was embarrassed at having done them in the first place


She didn't admit to them because she didn't want them to form part of her married sex life with the OP


Was it wrong of the OP's W to deny having performed any of these acts? Yes.

Is it wrong for the OP to now request his W to repeat these acts with him? No.

Is it wrong for the OP's W to refuse to repeat these acts with the OP if she doesn't want to do them? No.

So, what's the solution? IMO, communication. He's not prepared to throw away 20 years of married life because of this, so the OP needs to tell his W _exactly_ how he feels, and they need to work through this together rather than let it ruin their marriage.


----------



## chillymorn

a convicted felon would like to leave his history in the past also.

or a rape victim or and child molester, or a used car salesman.

its a lie by ommission.

andt the way I understand it was he asked and she said she never and would not enjoy it. Then her friend let it slip.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam...It was OVER 20 years ago...it isn't like it just kept popping up all over the place. I understand your position, but this scenario is different than yours. Your STBX did these things very recently with people you may run into.

How is that even remotely the same?

This wife did NOT throw it in his face.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn said:


> a convicted felon would like to leave his history in the past also.
> 
> or a rape victim or and child molester, or a used car salesman.
> 
> its a lie by ommission.
> 
> andt the way I understand it was he asked and she said she never and would not enjoy it. Then her friend let it slip.


Yeah great comparison!

Wife had sex with men/man before meeting husband = same thing as child molester.

Nice.


----------



## Faithful Wife

So really....all this boils down to is: A man other than myself gave my wife some pleasure over 20 years ago, and I am pissed off about it now.


----------



## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah great comparison!
> 
> Wife had sex with men/man before meeting husband = same thing as child molester.
> 
> Nice.


LOL,LOL

let me explain it to you so you can understand.

just because you don't want to say it or keep it seceret its still a lie. its a lie by ommission.

and you don't get a free pass on lying by ommission. at least in most marriages.

and you left out wife had sex with men/women its called a threesome.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> sam...It was OVER 20 years ago...it isn't like it just kept popping up all over the place. I understand your position, but this scenario is different than yours. Your STBX did these things very recently with people you may run into.
> 
> How is that even remotely the same?
> 
> This wife did NOT throw it in his face.


She lied to his face when he asked.... 20 years ago...

A 20 year lie.


----------



## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah great comparison!
> 
> Wife had sex with men/man before meeting husband = same thing as child molester.
> 
> Nice.


lol did you red the whole post?your great at leaving stuff out to prove you point.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> sam...It was OVER 20 years ago...it isn't like it just kept popping up all over the place. I understand your position, but this scenario is different than yours. *Your STBX did these things very recently with people you may run into*.
> 
> How is that even remotely the same?
> 
> This wife did NOT throw it in his face.


And the OP's wife did these things 20 years ago, and it STILL slipped out from someone they ran into...as I said, these things ALWAYS have a way of coming out.

If my STBW hadn't told me now, this could be me 20 years from now...something just happening to slip out from someone else...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yes, she clearly did not want him to know this about herself.

And somehow others get to decide if that is right or wrong, on a moral level.

We don't know this wife's story.

We don't know why a friend said what she did.

How does the friend know whether the wife "enjoyed" it and was into it? The wife may have said "sure, it was great" 20 years ago but was lying.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> So really....all this boils down to is: A man other than myself gave my wife some pleasure over 20 years ago, and I am pissed off about it now.


It's bigger than that. I'm presuming there must be some other disconnects in play.

If he felt valued, cherished, and desired, in my opinion this becomes a non-issue.

Odds are this discovery is just another thing that now goes on the resentment 'stack'. That's pretty common and it cuts both ways.

I vividly remember doing things with my wife that were mind-blowing and awesome, only to have those same things within just a few years become unthinkable, off limits, and I was a disrespectful, whiny, degenerate for even bringing up the possibility.

Now? I'm a perfectly respectful and self-moderated, degenerate.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, she clearly did not want him to know this about herself.
> 
> And somehow others get to decide if that is right or wrong, on a moral level.
> 
> We don't know this wife's story.
> 
> We don't know why a friend said what she did.
> 
> How does the friend know whether the wife "enjoyed" it and was into it? The wife may have said "sure, it was great" 20 years ago but was lying.


She is a LIAR.

Stop being so thickheaded. He's hurt because she LIED.

He's hurt because she LIED.

HES HURT BECAUSE SHE LIED


----------



## Deejo

Anonymous Person said:


> She is a LIAR.
> 
> Stop being so thickheaded. He's hurt because she LIED.
> 
> He's hurt because she LIED.
> 
> HES HURT BECAUSE SHE LIED


And there's that ...


----------



## Faithful Wife

anonymous, Don't call me names, please.


----------



## Faithful Wife

She lied about something that was none of his business.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> anonymous, Don't call me names, please.


I apologize. I just trigger a lot with liars in relationships.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, she clearly did not want him to know this about herself.
> 
> *And somehow others get to decide if that is right or wrong, on a moral level.*
> 
> We don't know this wife's story.
> 
> We don't know why a friend said what she did.
> 
> How does the friend know whether the wife "enjoyed" it and was into it? The wife may have said "sure, it was great" 20 years ago but was lying.


No. It is up to her to determine if it is right or wrong, but the things is, she made the choice to keep it from him. It was HER CHOICE, and she made it. What we are seeing now are the consequences for her decision, consequences that were largely inevitable.

It also doesn't matter WHY the friend said things. You can't unring a bell, and that does not change the fact that there was a 20 year, shall I call it nicely, misrepresentation, and that is all on her. These are the natural consequences of a choice she made.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> She lied about something that was none of his business.


We all have the right to define our own existence, and to partner with people we're compatible with.

You can use the "none of your business" card for anything and ultimately destroy a relationship.

If you're with someone that won't accept your past, then move on to someone that will. Lying to people and trapping them in relationships is SELFISH.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> She lied about something that was none of his business.


But it became his business the moment the truth came out, which in things like this it ALWAYS does, or at least one should work under the assumption that it inevitably will.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Look - here's my stance...if I was the wife here and my husband felt so horrible about this, I would apologize profusely for lying and I would attend to his hurt feelings.

But what else can she do?


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> She lied about something that was none of his business.


I don't want to derail, but you really believe that? Sharing your sexual history with the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, forsaking all others is; none of their business?

We're just caught up in a battle of wills at this point. We can paint OP's wife as a lying harlot, or the OP as a whiny, spoiled child.

I don't think either is correct or appropriate. It's just sad ... unfortunate for both parties.

I can't imagine not answering a question someone asked me about my sexual history. I'd want them to know. Because it's going to accomplish one of two things, bring us enormously closer together, or make it clear that we aren't a match.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo - my husband and I could and would never give each other a complete history.

Why on earth would we do that? Why would you "want them to know" anything except things you are into NOW?


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Look - here's my stance...if I was the wife here and my husband felt so horrible about this, I would apologize profusely for lying and I would attend to his hurt feelings.
> 
> But what else can she do?


She should have told him the truth 20 freaking years ago, thus allowing him the freedom to make an appropriate decision.

I'll never understand people that put walls up between their spouse. Marriage is supposed to be about ultimate intimacy, not lies, deceit, insecurity, and unnecessary drama.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think part of the problem here is that people get married without sowing all their wild oats first.

If you are satisfied with your own sexual history, you rarely hold what others did against them.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo - my husband and I could and would never give each other a complete history.
> 
> Why on earth would we do that? Why would you "want them to know" anything except things you are into NOW?


I.N.T.I.M.A.C.Y

derp


----------



## Cosmos

Yes, the OP's W did lie - 20 odd years ago. When confronted, she admitted to lying and made no attempt to deny having done so. We have no idea how she justified this to the OP, because he hasn't told us.

How is she now supposed to make amends? By agreeing to perform certain acts with the OP that she has no wish to repeat and then lie to him, again, by telling him that it's even more enjoyable with him than it was all those years ago? 

Something like this has the potential to get bigger and bigger, if not checked, and feed on itself until there's nothing left but a great gaping hole of pain and resentment...

This couple need to communicate and sort the matter out between them. If they can't, MC might be the best way forward.

The OP seems to have left the thread and, frankly, I think that's a very wise move...


----------



## Faithful Wife

anonymous....What kind of sex me or my husband have had with previous lovers has nothing to do with our current intimacy. We could have both been virgins or wh*res and we'd still have a very high level of intimacy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Hey anon - I'm going to ask you respectfully one more time to stop insulting me, and "derp" is an insult.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> I think part of the problem here is that people get married without sowing all their wild oats first.
> 
> If you are satisfied with your own sexual history, you rarely hold what others did against them.


The problem you fail to realize is that not everyone had the same childhood, upbringing, or opportunities.

And some people aren't read to "cook their oatmeals" when they're young. Some do it in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and even 60s.

I wasn't ready until my 30s and hurrah I'm married to someone who wants to explore with me.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> anonymous....What kind of sex me or my husband have had with previous lovers has nothing to do with our current intimacy. We could have both been virgins or wh*res and we'd still have a very high level of intimacy.


That's all fine and dandy for you, but not everyone is the same.

Recognize.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous Person said:


> That's all fine and dandy for you, but not everyone is the same.
> 
> Recognize.


Anon I was just responding about my situation to YOUR statement! Sheesh.


----------



## COGypsy

Faithful Wife said:


> anonymous....What kind of sex me or my husband have had with previous lovers has nothing to do with our current intimacy. We could have both been virgins or wh*res and we'd still have a very high level of intimacy.


EXACTLY! A disclaimer for every partner and sex act for the decades prior to meeting your partner has little to no bearing on the intimacy achieved or potentially achieved in a current relationship.

If nothing else, this thread would indicate what a bad, bad idea it is to bring the past into a current relationship.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon I was just responding about my situation to YOUR statement! Sheesh.


That' all fine and everything, but it's good to sometimes realize that not everyone is going to respond the same way as you do.

Not everyone has the same desires, priorities, values, and views on life.

I would never enter a relationship a man presenting me with a situation like samyeagar's STBW, but I'm not going to bash him and degrade him for his choice. It's his own life and he's not obligated to handle his situation or feel the same as others.

In the same, the OP might not have a similar attitude to his situation that you or your husband would, but that doesn't make his feelings any less valid.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yet you and many others are trying to make his wife's feelings invalid.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo - my husband and I could and would never give each other a complete history.
> 
> Why on earth would we do that? Why would you "want them to know" anything except things you are into NOW?


If I ask my soul-mate if she's ever had a Tony Danza or a Donkey Punch, it's because I want to open the floor for discussion about what's on or off the menu, either from my perspective or hers. And if she had ... then yeah I want to know if it was a good experience or a bad experience.

Sometimes I don't care. But the last time I had a heart to heart with a woman I deeply cared about she shared that she had in fact been involved in 3some and had a relationship with a woman. I honestly think she WAS trying to spook me, or see if I would judge her. I didn't flinch. I had another potential partner disclose that she had herpes, again, she didn't have to. I greatly appreciated her choosing that potentially putting my health at risk, was not, 'none of my business.'

We have no control over how someone chooses to react to, or what they do with the truth. The truth isn't always pretty. But it most definitely is always honest, and usually liberating.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo - that's great. That's you. That's not me. As anonymous is saying, we are all different.


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> Yet you and many others are trying to make his wife's feelings invalid.


Her feelings are valid, but she didn't handle the situation appropriately. She lied for 20 years, and then dismissed the situation as nothing.

If someone doesn't want to do something (sex, romance, emotional intimacy, etc.) that is their right, but handle it like an adult.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous Person said:


> Her feelings are valid, but she didn't handle the situation appropriately. She lied for 20 years, and then dismissed the situation as nothing.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to do something (sex, romance, emotional intimacy, etc.) that is their right, but handle it like an adult.


And how is it that you know that she dismissed it as nothing?


----------



## samyeagar

Anonymous Person said:


> That' all fine and everything, but it's good to sometimes realize that not everyone is going to respond the same way as you do.
> 
> Not everyone has the same desires, priorities, values, and views on life.
> 
> *I would never enter a relationship a man presenting me with a situation like samyeagar's* STBW, but I'm not going to bash him and degrade him for his choice. It's his own life and he's not obligated to handle his situation or feel the same as others.
> 
> In the same, the OP might not have a similar attitude to his situation that you or your husband would, but that doesn't make his feelings any less valid.


The thing is, I was given the choice by HER. There were some rough truths for us to go through, but the thing is, the way she handled things showed me that she is capable of empathy, that my feelings do matter to her. That she was willing to bare herself, to show me some very awful truths. She knew I could very easily leave, and was willing to risk that. We are not without issues, but her past is not one of them because of the way we are able to communicate, not just with words, but the fact that she respects me enough to put in the effort to work through this with me.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo - that's great. That's you. That's not me. As anonymous is saying, we are all different.


----------



## Faithful Wife

LOL! Why do I get the stink face?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Also...Deejo...I'm not saying my H and I didn't talk about stuff. We both disclosed everything we needed to (by our own standards) and we both have a very high need for very experimental sex so...it ain't like we didn't tawk. We did. We just didn't spill details and dirt about specific past partners.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> LOL! Why do I get the stink face?


Because a picture is worth a thousand words, and it's still funny. I blame FrenchFry.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I don't know what the words are that picture is supposed to be saying to me. All I said is that we are different.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Thor said:


> Lying about the past is a huge landmine waiting to explode.



yes. and is a kind of betryal in its own right.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Also...Deejo...I'm not saying my H and I didn't talk about stuff. We both disclosed everything we needed to (by our own standards) and we both have a very high need for very experimental sex so...it ain't like we didn't tawk. We did. We just didn't spill details and dirt about specific past partners.


I get that. I get that very unexpectedly, your partner can take the discussion to very weird places.

Some of the most memorable sex I've had was NOT with my wife. But without question, sex with her was the most fulfilling.

But if she were to ask me, "Am I the wildest, freakiest, best partner you've ever gotten naked with?"

My answer would be, "Your goddamn right you are, honey."

That's why I believe in guts case, there are other mitigating factors.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Thor said:


> :banghead:
> 
> But, all the kids are seniors this year, high school and college.



Thor:

I have followed much of your story. are you planning to leave her, or divorce her, in 2014?


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> And how is it that you know that she dismissed it as nothing?


The OP wouldn't be here otherwise. Have you not read his posts?



samyeagar said:


> The thing is, I was given the choice by HER. There were some rough truths for us to go through, but the thing is, the way she handled things showed me that she is capable of empathy, that my feelings do matter to her. That she was willing to bare herself, to show me some very awful truths. She knew I could very easily leave, and was willing to risk that. We are not without issues, but her past is not one of them because of the way we are able to communicate, not just with words, but the fact that she respects me enough to put in the effort to work through this with me.


She handled it like an adult, and divulged very sensitive information. She made herself vulnerable to you. More importantly, she treated YOU like an adult.

And I think that's one thing many people get angry over, when their spouse treats them like a child hiding candy. It's a very insulting and degrading experience. I went through it, I should know.


----------



## samyeagar

Deejo said:


> I get that. I get that very unexpectedly, your partner can take the discussion to very weird places.
> 
> Some of the most memorable sex I've had was NOT with my wife. But without question, sex with her was the most fulfilling.
> 
> But if she were to ask me, "Am I the wildest, freakiest, best partner you've ever gotten naked with?"
> 
> *My answer would be, "Your goddamn right you are, honey."*
> 
> That's why I believe in guts case, there are other mitigating factors.


A while back when we first started dating, my STBW was asking a bit more about the sexlessness in my marriage and asked if I remembered the last time I had sex with my ex-wife...a thoughful look and pause, then "Nope."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous Person said:


> The OP wouldn't be here otherwise. Have you not read his posts?


I have read his posts here in this thread, and I do not see any description of how she handled it or what she said.

Do you? Please point me to which post.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

There always seems to be two separate camps in these discussions. There also happened to be two separate issues so there would be four camps LOL

first issue, do you tell your spouse the dirty details about your past? 
second issue,are you obligated to perform the same sex acts with your current partner as you did with past partners?

Each issue seems to have two sides. I guess the happiness of your marriage could depend on whether or not you and your spouse are in the same camp for both of those issues.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> There always seems to be two separate camps in these discussions. There also happened to be two separate issues so there would be four camps LOL
> 
> first issue, do you tell your spouse the dirty details about your past?
> second issue,are you obligated to perform the same sex acts with your current partner as you did with past partners?
> 
> Each issue seems to have two sides. I guess the happiness of your marriage could depend on whether or not you and your spouse are in the same camp for both of those issues.


Personally, I don't think there is any truly right or wrong side on either of those. I don't think there is any obligation to divulge, nor is there any obligation to perform, however...

One must be prepared to accept the consequences of every decision they make.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Faithful Wife said:


> She lied about something that was none of his business.


FW

you have established some credibility on these kind of issues. so am choosing to give you a chance to explain before any back and forth. When you say it was "none of his business"......what exactly was none of his business, and why not? (i.e. the conversations they had before they married)


----------



## 12345Person

Faithful Wife said:


> I have read his posts here in this thread, and I do not see any description of how she handled it or what she said.
> 
> Do you? Please point me to which post.


He says she gave him a "nonsensical" answer and that she even knew it was juvenile.

Imo he wouldn't describe it as such if she gave a considerate answer even if he disagreed.

He's been married to her long enough to know her, so I'll trust his judgement for now.


----------



## the guy

At the end of the day I just want to know one thing...

Is OP getting or will get any of those "gifts" she lied about before they got married?


----------



## norajane

In the OP's first post, he said it was "that was then, this is now". So, presumably, she explained something along the lines of that she liked it back then but wouldn't like it now, or those were her sexual tastes back then but have changed and aren't her tastes and preferences now, or that she was in a different time and mind-space back then than she is now.

And in a later post, he called her answer nonsensical.

That's all he's said about her response. In other words, we have no idea what was really said.


----------



## Thor

nuclearnightmare said:


> Thor:
> 
> I have followed much of your story. are you planning to leave her, or divorce her, in 2014?


I feel I can finally hold her feet to the fire without fearing the consequences. There are things I don't believe she can explain away, so it will be interesting to hear her answers. There are also some major actions she will have to take in order to move forward.

The outcome is likely to be D. It isn't what I want, but it may be the only road to peace for me.


----------



## Fozzy

ScarletBegonias said:


> There always seems to be two separate camps in these discussions. There also happened to be two separate issues so there would be four camps LOL
> 
> first issue, do you tell your spouse the dirty details about your past?
> second issue,are you obligated to perform the same sex acts with your current partner as you did with past partners?
> 
> Each issue seems to have two sides. I guess the happiness of your marriage could depend on whether or not you and your spouse are in the same camp for both of those issues.


Do you tell every detail about your past? If it's relevant, yes. If you spouse says, "hey, are you down for xyz tonight?" and you say "nope, not going there", but later on he finds your crown from the xyz competition of 1986, i think you should have a valid explanation.

Are you then required to perform xyz? nope.


----------



## 12345Person

norajane said:


> In the OP's first post, he said it was "that was then, this is now". So, presumably, she explained something along the lines of that she liked it back then but wouldn't like it now, or those were her sexual tastes back then but have changed and aren't her tastes and preferences now, or that she was in a different time and mind-space back then than she is now.
> 
> And in a later post, he called her answer nonsensical.
> 
> That's all he's said about her response. In other words, we have no idea what was really said.


She lied to him about it 20 years ago, so I see why he found the answer stupid.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> first issue, do you tell your spouse the dirty details about your past?
> 
> second issue,are you obligated to perform the same sex acts with your current partner as you did with past partners?


I think one is obligated to answer with full honesty when asked a question. A possible answer is "I will not tell you. It is none of your business". Or, one may provide the details be asked about.

OP's W did not do either one of those. Instead she lied about something which, as it turns out, is deeply emotionally important to OP. Therein lies the stab to OP's heart.

One is not required to do everything they did in the past. But if it was pleasurable in the past, and there is no substantial reason why it would not be pleasurable now, it is a very bad sign if they won't cheerfully do it with their current partner. It says something.


----------



## 12345Person

Thor said:


> It says something.


"you don't matter"


----------



## peacefully

Quite often when people lie or otherwise cover up or deny their sexual past, it is due to feeling shame. We tend to act in all sorts of crazy ways when we feel ashamed- including justifying and rationalizing our behaviors. We might even say we "liked" something, just to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging the truth- that (perhaps) we felt used. Admitting that can put us in a powerless and vulnerable position.

I know that I have evolved in many ways over the years and the things that I was willing to do when I was younger are not things that I am willing to do now. I have evolved, become the woman I am meant to be and have a greater sense of who I am and I have a clear understanding of my boundaries- especially sexual boundaries. When I was younger and much more insecure I would allow acts that I didn't particularly enjoy, just to please my partner and gain approval from him. In my current, healhy relationship- I feel secure and safe enough to not have to do things that cause me shame or discomfort.


----------



## 12345Person

peacefully said:


> Quite often when people lie or otherwise cover up or deny their sexual past, it is due to feeling shame. We tend to act in all sorts of crazy ways when we feel ashamed- including justifying and rationalizing our behaviors. We might even say we "liked" something, just to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging the truth- that (perhaps) we felt used. Admitting that can put us in a powerless and vulnerable position.
> 
> I know that I have evolved in many ways over the years and the things that I was willing to do when I was younger are not things that I am willing to do now. I have evolved, become the woman I am meant to be and have a greater sense of who I am and I have a clear understanding of my boundaries- especially sexual boundaries. When I was younger and much more insecure I would allow acts that I didn't particularly enjoy, just to please my partner and gain approval from him. In my current, healhy relationship- I feel secure and safe enough to not have to do things that cause me shame or discomfort.


We already know all of this, but it's highly irrelevant.

A healthy marriage involves honesty, communication, and becoming vulnerable.

If your partner wants to know something about your past, lying is simply treating them like a child and taking away their freedom.


----------



## Cosmos

> Originally Posted by peacefully View Post
> Quite often when people lie or otherwise cover up or deny their sexual past, it is due to feeling shame. We tend to act in all sorts of crazy ways when we feel ashamed- including justifying and rationalizing our behaviors. We might even say we "liked" something, just to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging the truth- that (perhaps) we felt used. Admitting that can put us in a powerless and vulnerable position.
> 
> I know that I have evolved in many ways over the years and the things that I was willing to do when I was younger are not things that I am willing to do now. I have evolved, become the woman I am meant to be and have a greater sense of who I am and I have a clear understanding of my boundaries- especially sexual boundaries. When I was younger and much more insecure I would allow acts that I didn't particularly enjoy, just to please my partner and gain approval from him. In my current, healhy relationship- I feel secure and safe enough to not have to do things that cause me shame or discomfort.





> Anonymous Person: We already know all of this, but it's highly irrelevant.
> 
> A healthy marriage involves honesty, communication, and becoming vulnerable.
> 
> If your partner wants to know something about your past, lying is simply treating them like a child and taking away their freedom.


I don't believe Peacefully's post is irrelevant. She's trying to offer some personal insight into _why_ the OP's W might have lied to him.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Is anybody else, like, feeling really bad for the lies they've told in their lives and never bothered to correct because now it seems like that ship has sailed anyway? 

I mean, I'm not the only one, right? Any one else out there?

no?

okay i'll go away and be a human all by my lonesome


----------



## peacefully

From what I understood- the dishonesty happened before the marriage and into the marriage when trust was built the Wife was able to open up and divulge her past. 
I also understood that the writer loves his wife and does not want this to be negative towards her- but he was writing to gain understanding and perspective on why partners were willing in past relationships to do certain things sexually when they are not willing in their current relationships?
If I've missed the point, I apologise.


----------



## Vega

Faithful Wife said:


> It's pretty clear to me why some wives aren't into their tam husbands.


I was thinking along similar lines, FW! As I read up to page 26, it became clear to me WHY the divorce rate is as high as it is, and WHY more women initiate divorce than men! 

But I digress...

Vega


----------



## 12345Person

peacefully said:


> From what I understood- the dishonesty happened before the marriage and into the marriage when trust was built the Wife was able to open up and divulge her past.
> I also understood that the writer loves his wife and does not want this to be negative towards her- but he was writing to gain understanding and perspective on why partners were willing in past relationships to do certain things sexually when they are not willing in their current relationships?
> If I've missed the point, I apologise.


No, she lied before marriage, and he found out 20 years through her friend.


----------



## Vega

Thor said:


> A man wants to be special to his wife.


How is engaging in the _*same*_ sex acts with her husband as 'she' did with another man going to make him feel "special"? 

I would think that engaging in DIFFERENT sex acts that she never did with anyone else would make him feel "special". 

If he wants the same thing from HER that she gave to someone else, I would see that as ONLY "evening up the score"...

...which would hardly cause HER to feel "special"!


----------



## treyvion

Vega said:


> How is engaging in the _*same*_ sex acts with her husband as 'she' did with another man going to make him feel "special"?
> 
> I would think that engaging in DIFFERENT sex acts that she never did with anyone else would make him feel "special".
> 
> If he wants the same thing from HER that she gave to someone else, I would see that as ONLY "evening up the score"...
> 
> ...which would hardly cause HER to feel "special"!


It is because she is denying these acts which have come to the light she actually ENJOYS.

It's the same example as the husband who won't kiss or provide oral sex to his wife. "I don't do that".

When she finds out from half a dozen of his ex GF's, that not only does he like to do it, he's very good at it and does it very often.

Now how the hell is that supposed to make her feel?


----------



## Vega

chillymorn said:


> LOL,LOL
> 
> just because you don't want to say it or keep it seceret its still a lie. its a lie by ommission.
> 
> and you don't get a free pass on lying by ommission. at least in most marriages.


OMG. I was in the bathroom today. Twice. I took a dump. Twice. I didn't tell my husband. 

Guess I lied by omission. 

Not.

Lying is an intention to deceive. Deception implies WRONGDOING. 

There's nothing 'wrong' with having sex with other men (or women) pre-marriage, nor is there anything 'wrong' with getting 'freaky' with them. 

People get to have SOME amount of privacy in their lives, even if they're married. Keeping a personal journal comes to mind. So does closing the bathroom door while using the bathroom.


----------



## pink_lady

I didn't read through the 38 pages so I'm sure this was probably discussed but...

Does everyone sit down and spill the details of every sexual act they performed with every old boyfriend/partner?

Seriously?

I have never had ANY interest in hearing all about what my boyfriends did sexually with their ex's, and I have not told my boyfriends all about my sexual experiences with other guys.

Like, why on earth would either partner WANT to hear about that?

I'm interested in where a man is sexually NOW, with ME, only. I thought that was the norm, but I guess not?


----------



## Vega

Anonymous Person said:


> Her feelings are valid, but she didn't handle the situation appropriately. She lied for 20 years, and then dismissed the situation as nothing.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to do something (sex, romance, emotional intimacy, etc.) that is their right, but handle it like an adult.


Yanno...if you read the OP's first post on this thread, it seems that he is MORE upset with the idea that his wife won't do these sexual things with him, and the lying is _secondary_.


----------



## 12345Person

I sometimes go into the restroom when my husband is there, so that doesn't apply to me...

*runs away*


----------



## treyvion

pink_lady said:


> I didn't read through the 38 pages so I'm sure this was probably discussed but...
> 
> Does everyone sit down and spill the details of every sexual act they performed with every old boyfriend/partner?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I have never had ANY interest in hearing all about what my boyfriends did sexually with their ex's, and I have not told my boyfriends all about my sexual experiences with other guys.
> 
> Like, why on earth would either partner WANT to hear about that?
> 
> I'm interested in where a man is sexually NOW, with ME, only. I thought that was the norm, but I guess not?


Your husband will not hug you, will not kiss you and will not perform oral sex on you. You cook and give him sex when he wants it.

You found out you where convenient years later because he never ended his lifestyle.

You also found through several EX girlfriends that this man is very affectionate and loving and loves to hug, kiss and perform oral sex. He treated them like queens.

You would be pissed too.


----------



## Vega

Deejo said:


> I get that. I get that very unexpectedly, your partner can take the discussion to very weird places.
> 
> Some of the most memorable sex I've had was NOT with my wife. But without question, sex with her was the most fulfilling.
> 
> But if she were to ask me, "Am I the wildest, freakiest, best partner you've ever gotten naked with?"
> 
> My answer would be, "Your goddamn right you are, honey."
> 
> That's why I believe in guts case, there are other mitigating factors.


So...it's o.k. to LIE then?


----------



## 12345Person

pink_lady said:


> I didn't read through the 38 pages so I'm sure this was probably discussed but...
> 
> Does everyone sit down and spill the details of every sexual act they performed with every old boyfriend/partner?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I have never had ANY interest in hearing all about what my boyfriends did sexually with their ex's, and I have not told my boyfriends all about my sexual experiences with other guys.
> 
> Like, why on earth would either partner WANT to hear about that?
> 
> I'm interested in where a man is sexually NOW, with ME, only. I thought that was the norm, but I guess not?


Welcome to the world young one, where people have different desires, preferences, beliefs, and sexual standards.



Vega said:


> Yanno...if you read the OP's first post on this thread, it seems that he is MORE upset with the idea that his wife won't do these sexual things with him, and the lying is _secondary_.


You're surprised he feels slighted that his wife denied him sexual acts she enjoys and lied about it for 20 years?

You'd feel slighted to, everyone posting here would..


----------



## Married but Happy

Vega, you really DON'T look fat in those jeans!


----------



## chillymorn

round and round,round and round the bus goes!


----------



## Thunder7

Vega, I have a question. At the risk of ripping off a healing scab I'll go back to my original post here on TAM. Readers Digest version: I found out my wife of 20+ years MAY not have been completely honest about the number of partners she had prior to me. She may have under reported, which I have come to understand is fairly common among women (and I say 'may' because I don't know for sure). And, we had the talk those many years ago. So, my question is was this a lie (which is bad), or a lie by omission (which is not, by your standards)?


----------



## treyvion

Thunder7 said:


> Vega, I have a question. At the risk of ripping off a healing scab I'll go back to my original post here on TAM. Readers Digest version: I found out my wife of 20+ years MAY not have been completely honest about the number of partners she had prior to me. She may have under reported, which I have come to understand is fairly common among women (and I say 'may' because I don't know for sure). And, we had the talk those many years ago. So, my question is was this a lie (which is bad), or a lie by omission (which is not, by your standards)?


They may lie to themself. They may have internal mental systems which produce a lower count, by dropping out one night stands, freak sex, or something like that. Who knows. But they may lie to themself and tell you that lie that they tell themself.

What order of magnitude for your situation? She told you like 7 partners and you found out there was over 100?


----------



## pink_lady

treyvion said:


> Your husband will not hug you, will not kiss you and will not perform oral sex on you. You cook and give him sex when he wants it.
> 
> You found out you where convenient years later because he never ended his lifestyle.
> 
> You also found through several EX girlfriends that this man is very affectionate and loving and loves to hug, kiss and perform oral sex. He treated them like queens.
> 
> You would be pissed too.


Yes, but I don't date dudes long who won't/can't fulfill my sexual and emotional needs and certainly wouldn't marry one 

I'd be pissed for sure if a husband inexplicably stopped doing those things, (hugging, kissing and oral sex are a world apart from bringing other people into the bedroom) and I'd demand change or leave.

But I still would have no interest in hearing the details of his sexual escapades with women other than me, and still wouldn't discuss details of my sex life with other men.

It just seemed to me there was never a reason for that and it only brought up feelings of jealousy and weirdness. For me it's just a 'don't go there' thing. I don't know, maybe I'm the oddity.


----------



## treyvion

pink_lady said:


> Yes, but I don't date dudes long who won't/can't fulfill my sexual and emotional needs
> 
> I'd be pissed for sure if a husband stopped doing those things, (hugging, kissing and oral sex are a world apart from bringing other people into the bedroom) and I'd demand change or leave.
> 
> But I still would have no interest in hearing the details of his sexual escapades with women other than me, and still wouldn't discuss details of my sex life with other men.
> 
> It just seemed to me there was never a reason for that and it only brought up feelings of jealousy and weirdness. For me it's just a 'don't go there' thing. I don't know, maybe I'm the oddity.


Some of the men got trapped in and thought things may change over the years. I agree that after a long enough period of time that your needs should be met, and it shouldn't be pressure to do it. It should be what they want to do.


----------



## Thor

Vega said:


> How is engaging in the _*same*_ sex acts with her husband as 'she' did with another man going to make him feel "special"?
> 
> I would think that engaging in DIFFERENT sex acts that she never did with anyone else would make him feel "special".
> 
> If he wants the same thing from HER that she gave to someone else, I would see that as ONLY "evening up the score"...
> 
> ...which would hardly cause HER to feel "special"!


It totally depends on the acts we're talking about, and the context.

If she gave oral to a number of men before him, and if she says she enjoyed it, then it means something that she will not do it with her husband. It means something that she no longer finds it fun.

There may be new personal insights which change one's opinion of past acts. Outside of the realm of sex, I can think of things I did in college which I would not do today!

On the other hand many acts we are hinting about are normal mainstream kinds of things. And we know that many times cheating wives will do those things with an affair partner.

If my wife said hey lets go do it on a mountaintop, yeah that would be special and it would be unique to us. When she says she did it in cars with all her previous bf's but it is too messy to do it with me, what should I think about that? And no, they didn't use condoms, and yes we could use condoms.


----------



## pink_lady

Anonymous Person said:


> Welcome to the world young one, where people have different desires, preferences, beliefs, and sexual standards.


Yes, and it clearly works out really well for people who feel the need to know every detail of their partner's previous sex life.


----------



## 12345Person

pink_lady said:


> Yes, and it clearly works out really well for people who feel the need to know every detail of their partner's previous sex life.


Works for me.


----------



## Thunder7

treyvion said:


> What order of magnitude for your situation? She told you like 7 partners and you found out there was over 100?


Nooooo. Nothing nearly as egregious as that. Probably would be a bump of about 3-7 more than previously disclosed. But since I have not pressed the issue I don't know for sure.


----------



## treyvion

Thunder7 said:


> Nooooo. Nothing nearly as egregious as that. Probably would be a bump of about 3-7 more than previously disclosed. But since I have not pressed the issue I don't know for sure.


No biggie.


----------



## Cletus

pink_lady said:


> I didn't read through the 38 pages so I'm sure this was probably discussed but...
> 
> Does everyone sit down and spill the details of every sexual act they performed with every old boyfriend/partner?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I have never had ANY interest in hearing all about what my boyfriends did sexually with their ex's, and I have not told my boyfriends all about my sexual experiences with other guys.
> 
> Like, why on earth would either partner WANT to hear about that?
> 
> I'm interested in where a man is sexually NOW, with ME, only. I thought that was the norm, but I guess not?


I wouldn't want every detail, fer sure.

But I married a plain vanilla woman, as plain and vanilla as they come in the bedroom. If she had a much more adventurous past, I would want to know that, if for no other reason than to figure out if there was a way to revive some of that interest in variety in our marriage, because quite frankly, we could use it.

So I don't need the gory details, but the broad outline would be pretty useful information.


----------



## samyeagar

peacefully said:


> Quite often when people lie or otherwise cover up or deny their sexual past, it is due to feeling shame. We tend to act in all sorts of crazy ways when we feel ashamed- including justifying and rationalizing our behaviors. We might even say we "liked" something, just to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging the truth- that (perhaps) we felt used. Admitting that can put us in a powerless and vulnerable position.
> 
> I know that I have evolved in many ways over the years and the things that I was willing to do when I was younger are not things that I am willing to do now. I have evolved, become the woman I am meant to be and have a greater sense of who I am and I have a clear understanding of my boundaries- especially sexual boundaries. *When I was younger and much more insecure I would allow acts that I didn't particularly enjoy, just to please my partner and gain approval from him*. In my current, healhy relationship- I feel secure and safe enough to not have to do things that cause me shame or discomfort.


And this is where things get messy. The message IS sent that your previous partner, the one you felt you had to win approval from, the one you did things you didn't really want to do but did them anyway to get their love, attention was worth that effort even though you aren't with them any more. That your current partner is not getting that same kind of effort to please, that you are in a sense taking them for granted. It is up to you to communicate to your partner why the obvious is not reality.

The one thing I keep coming back to when I am triggering on my STBW's past is the fact that she has sex with me 10-15 times a week and is often the initiator. The fact that before me, she had never had sex seven days in a row. We hit 40 without a day off in there at one point. That says a lot about her desire for me.


----------



## 12345Person

Most of the men on the internet that complain are dealing with the "Dolphin in the past, Starfish in the present" syndrome.


----------



## Vega

Anonymous Person said:


> You're surprised he feels slighted that his wife denied him sexual acts she enjoys and lied about it for 20 years?
> 
> You'd feel slighted to, everyone posting here would..


Umm...I HAVE been with partners who have done sexual things with previous partners, yet not done the same things with me. 

And I never felt 'slighted'. 

What my partner has done with previous partners has no bearing on what my partner and I will do TOGETHER. 

The OP's wife MARRIED him. Now THAT'S something that she may not have done with another partner. 

In this world today, it seems that too many people LOOK for reasons to be 'offended'.


----------



## samyeagar

I've never had sex in a car, and never had an overwhelming desire to...seems like it could be pretty uncomfortable. My STBW was pretty shocked by that when I told her. She told me she really had no desire to ever do it again because it is indeed uncomfortable, but she also said that if I ever felt the desire to do it in a car, she'd be more than willing to do it for me. Come to find out later, the step-son incident happened in a car which pretty much killed any curiosity I had about doing it in there. The thing is, if she had told me no way, no how, she didn't like it and wouldn't do it ever again, that would have hit pretty hard.


----------



## Vega

treyvion said:


> It is because she is denying these acts which have come to the light she actually ENJOYS.


No. It's something she ENJOY*ED*, past tense. Just because she enjoyed an activity at the time doesn't mean she STILL would enjoy it. 

People change. Why doesn't anyone seem to get that?


----------



## Cletus

Vega said:


> Umm...I HAVE been with partners who have done sexual things with previous partners, yet not done the same things with me.
> 
> And I never felt 'slighted'.


And I would.

So where does that leave us? I'm not going to try to convince you that you should feel slighted if you promise to not try to convince me that I shouldn't.


----------



## 12345Person

Vega said:


> Umm...I HAVE been with partners who have done sexual things with previous partners, yet not done the same things with me.


My husband is like a Dolphin.

Sorry about your Starfish problem.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Frankly, she has to serve it up.Don't care why there is denial , don't care for an explanation, not looking for logic and you don't have to explain why you want "it". Her secret past is out, and you want it in the present with you.....so tell her bend over, pucker up,click the hand-cuffs, whatever, just do it. :whip:


----------



## Thunder7

RaiderGirl said:


> Frankly, she has to serve it up.Don't care why there is denial , don't care for an explanation, not looking for logic and you don't have to explain why you want "it". Her secret past is out, and you want it in the present with you.....so tell her bend over, pucker up,click the hand-cuffs, whatever, just do it. :whip:


Wow, you are not going to make many female friends here. Guys on the other hand.........  

And if your avatar name refers to two particular colors (silver and black), you might be my new best friend.


----------



## Starstarfish

RaiderGirl said:


> Frankly, she has to serve it up.Don't care why there is denial , don't care for an explanation, not looking for logic and you don't have to explain why you want "it". Her secret past is out, and you want it in the present with you.....so tell her bend over, pucker up,click the hand-cuffs, whatever, just do it. :whip:


And she has the option of saying no thanks. Sorry, having a sexual past doesn't mean you lose all rights of choice. So why does she *have* to do anything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's pretty clear to me who are the good wives of tam and who are the bad wives.


The contrast is amazingly stark, isn't it!!?


----------



## Vega

Thunder7 said:


> Vega, I have a question. At the risk of ripping off a healing scab I'll go back to my original post here on TAM. Readers Digest version: I found out my wife of 20+ years MAY not have been completely honest about the number of partners she had prior to me. She may have under reported, which I have come to understand is fairly common among women (and I say 'may' because I don't know for sure). And, we had the talk those many years ago. So, my question is was this a lie (which is bad), or a lie by omission (which is not, by your standards)?


I read your original post along with all of the responses on that thread. It seems that most peeps were of the "get over it" mentality. I happen to agree...

With the information that you gave, I believe that your wife did NOT "lie" to you. She may not have told the truth, but that doesn't mean that she "lied". 

A lie is an intention to deceive. There are two key elements to this definition. The first is 'intention'. An intention is something that is deliberate. No one lies "accidentally". It is ALWAYS deliberate. 

Let's say that I'm a cashier counting back change to you. As I'm counting back the change to you, we both realize that I almost shortchanged you by $5. Did I deliberately try to "deceive" you? Or did I simply THINK that I pulled out 2 5's instead of one? People make mistakes like this every day, without there being any malice or ill-will behind it. While pulling the money out of the register I may have been momentarily distracted by another thought that came into my head. With all of the sights and sounds that are in a grocery store it's a wonder that MORE cashiers don't make that kind of mistake more often. Making a mistake like that is a human error. It's also a forgivable error. 

Unfortunately, SOME people don't see it that way. They will take advantage of the cashier's humanity to yell at her, call her 'stupid' and accuse her of trying to 'rip off the customer', all in an effort to make themselves feel 'superior' to her. And of course, the cashier would have NO WAY of *proving* that she made a simple human error. After all, no one can read her mind. The only person who TRULY knows what was going on inside her head while she was counting out change...is *her*. 

Your wife may very well be that proverbial cashier. She may have believed that she was quoting you an accurate number. But after she re-focused on it, she may have realized her error. It does NOT mean that she _intentionally_ deceived you...

...which brings me to the second part of a lie: Deception. 

Deception is the act of causing one to believe information that is not true or an untruth or not the whole truth. It is a DELIBERATE act. It is a conscious act. 

Without being able to *prove* both intent AND deception, there is no 'lying'. 

The law is very well aware that people can 'mis-speak' without "lying". They can 'not tell the whole truth' without lying. They can also unintentionally 'deceive' without 'lying'. 

If they law can make allowances for people's humanity, perhaps you could make an allowance for your WIFE's humanity, and give the woman you love the benefit of the doubt. 

Vega


----------



## larry.gray

Deejo said:


> I can't imagine not answering a question someone asked me about my sexual history. I'd want them to know. Because it's going to accomplish one of two things, bring us enormously closer together, or make it clear that we aren't a match.


:iagree:

Gosh darn it, I keep hitting the same button and it only alternates between like and unlike instead of racking up a higher like count.

You can answer the question with the response "that's none of your business." He can accept that answer and then have to live with it from then on. Or he can say "thanks, I'm moving on." 

But it's never OK to lie about your past. It will never work out well if you're busted. If you have a past, find a guy that's OK with it. Don't trick one that isn't OK with it.


----------



## larry.gray

Faithful Wife said:


> I think part of the problem here is that people get married without sowing all their wild oats first.


Why is that a "problem"? 

The only thing that is a problem is women who've sowed their oats wanting to land a guy that doesn't want a woman that did. Go ahead, sow your oats. Just don't lie about them.

When it comes time to marry, find a guy that doesn't care, as you apparently did.



Faithful Wife said:


> If you are satisfied with your own sexual history, you rarely hold what others did against them.


I'm satisfied with my own history. I don't wish I boned a lot of women before marriage. I also like that my wife didn't either.

I think perhaps the reason you're so invested in this story is that you DO feel judged by others here. Thing is... you could have recognized that you have nothing to offer to this thread, and moved on. Instead, you feel insecure and wish to bash the rest of us over it.


----------



## larry.gray

samyeagar said:


> Personally, I don't think there is any truly right or wrong side on either of those. I don't think there is any obligation to divulge, nor is there any obligation to perform, however...
> 
> One must be prepared to accept the consequences of every decision they make.


Whatever camp you're in, lying isn't OK. If you don't want to answer a question, it can be answered with "I don't want to answer."


----------



## barbados

larry.gray said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Gosh darn it, I keep hitting the same button and it only alternates between like and unlike instead of racking up a higher like count.
> 
> You can answer the question with the response "that's none of your business." He can accept that answer and then have to live with it from then on. Or he can say "thanks, I'm moving on."
> 
> But it's never OK to lie about your past. It will never work out well if you're busted. If you have a past, find a guy that's OK with it. Don't trick one that isn't OK with it.


I could not :iagree: MORE !!!

Its really the real point here of the OP original question. Its not what she did / didn't do in the past sexually. Its that she LIED about it, and worse yet lied because she KNEW it would most likely be a deal breaker for him !!

I mean factor out the sex stuff for a second. Why would this be any different if he found out she had a criminal past and she lied about it ?

She took away his ability to make an informed decision. PERIOD !


----------



## Anon Pink

I don't read the OP with an emphasis that she lied, although he does state that. It seems most of his post complains that she did these things, she enjoyed these things, but won't do them with him. He doesn't spend much time bemoaning the lie(s) but bemoaning the fact that he isn't getting the same.

And, I don't blame him.

However, it is kind of odd that he finds out about her sexual past (and that she "enjoyed" it, from someone other than his wife or a very close personal friend who might actually know the truth. 

Does he actually quote his wife as stating that yes she enjoyed it with the other guy but refuses with him?

And what is her immature reason for not wanting to get kinky with him?

I think NoGuts need to come back and answer these questions.


----------



## barbados

Deejo said:


> or reverse cowgirl wearing a *Wonder Woman* outfit, playing a kazoo.


I'll never look at Linda Carter the same way again ! :rofl:


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



Vega said:


> So...it's o.k. to LIE then?


Of course. Again, context is everything. For those who simply believe that a lie is a lie ... I say, pishaw.

Don't ask scary questions unless you are prepared for scary answers.

If someone is incapable of distinguishing the gravitas of a falsehood between, 
"Do these jeans make my ass look fat?"
and
"Are you a virgin?" or "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?": then we don't have much to discuss. Bottom line for me? Everybody lies. 

I don't care about my partners sexual history. I care about her sexual present.

Unfortunately in this case, we really have no context. We don't know what 'the acts' are. And arguably, the acts don't matter. The impact of feeling neglected is compounded by the lie regarding those proclivities, in this circumstance is responsible for the rift.

A truly open discussion at this point, is the only thing that can close that rift.


----------



## GinnyTonia

Thunder7 said:


> Nooooo. Nothing nearly as egregious as that. Probably would be a bump of about 3-7 more than previously disclosed. But since I have not pressed the issue I don't know for sure.


My exBF told that he triples what women tell him and intimated that most of the men he knows assume that women lie about their past. 

I want to be forthright and need someone who can accept my past, but he all but encouraged me to downplay it because no quality man wound want me if they knew the whole story. 

This is confusing and discouraging.


----------



## Anon Pink

GinnyTonia said:


> My exBF told that he triples what women tell him and intimated that most of the men he knows assume that women lie about their past.
> 
> I want to be forthright and need someone who can accept my past, but he all but encouraged me to downplay it because no quality man wound want me if they knew the whole story.
> 
> This is confusing and discouraging.


Exactly!

How can a young-ish woman tell if the quality man she's falling for is going to pop up with retroactive jealousy or not? Being honest is important but where is the point in a new relationship, where sexual past is something about which to demure until things seem more solid and where is the point where withholding those details is considered manipulation?

Almost every woman knows that men seem to have this "conquest" type perspective with a woman they deeply care for. Women don't seem to have this at all or very deeply. Women are more concerned about how strongly he FEELS toward me vs other women. And if she wants him to feel strongly toward her, does she trigger an unseen insecurity by giving details or sooth the beast that wants to mark his territory by with holding details.

These are very difficult questions to answer during a new romance, but at some point, she has to own her past and either declare it off the table for discussion or be honest. In either case, she risks losing him and his respect for her if he can't handle the fact he wasn't the first to plant the flag or previously explored territory won't be open for further exploration.

Considering how poorly most people communicate in general and adding in how difficult sex communication can be, these are very tricky waters to navigate.

Another good thing about being over 50! We do not have to deal with this kind of crap!


----------



## alexm

larry.gray said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Gosh darn it, I keep hitting the same button and it only alternates between like and unlike instead of racking up a higher like count.
> 
> You can answer the question with the response "that's none of your business." He can accept that answer and then have to live with it from then on. Or he can say "thanks, I'm moving on."
> 
> But it's never OK to lie about your past. It will never work out well if you're busted. If you have a past, find a guy that's OK with it. Don't trick one that isn't OK with it.


I think the discussion should end there, because larry.gray just summed it up perfectly. There have been 40 pages of "it's okay to lie" and "it's not okay to lie". This answer is, imo, the only one, whether you agree or not.

If your new partner asks you questions, you either answer them, or don't. You don't lie. The asker can make up his/her own mind as to whether your answer or non-answer is sufficient to them. It's your prerogative to answer truthfully, or to not answer at all. You still have a choice. Lying is not a great way to start a relationship, especially when, as we all know, these things have a tendency to come out at some point, anyway, and they usually end up hurting the person who was lied to (see: OP).

When you're in a new relationship, you're getting to know each other. Some people think it's okay to inquire about the past, some do not. If I ask my new gf about her past, and she thinks it's none of my business, and refuses to answer, then we both have to decide where it goes next. Simple. If I don't like the fact that she refuses to answer, or she dislikes the fact that I asked, then we can both make the decision as to whether we'll be compatible or not.

If she lies, she takes that right away from me.

It doesn't even matter what the subject is. You try to learn as much about your partner as possible in order to make an informed decision about whether you will go forward in the relationship or not.

Some people believe that the past is important, some, only the present and future. Some believe the past can be an indicator of the future. Some think the past is the past and won't, at all, have any bearing on the present and/or future. There's no right or wrong here, honestly.

Some of us, myself included, believe a little bit of both. I was lied to in the beginning, and let me tell you, as these things come out over the years, it sucks. It doesn't make me love my wife any less, because we ARE compatible in marriage, but it still sucks and I wish she either had just told me the truth or refused to answer. I would have accepted both. Now, I feel slightly deceived, and every now and again, I have doubts about why she's with me. That's my prerogative, but I also wouldn't feel that way had everything been out in the open from the beginning. (as an aside, what I mean by this is that we were both in our early 30's when we got together. I, out of a long relationship/marriage, her with 2 kids from a previous relationship, and a few other ltr's over the years, as well as a party girl past when she was younger. I am nothing - nothing- like the previous exes that I know about. Although she chose me, loves me, married me, I still occasionally wonder if she's settling, because it's not easy for a 30-something year old woman with 2 kids and several failed relationships to find someone. I would disagree with this statement - there are guys out there who don't care about that stuff, me included, but even she has mentioned this difficulty, and it's not an uncommon perception. I wouldn't have felt this way had she been open and honest at the start.)


----------



## alexm

Vega said:


> No. It's something she ENJOY*ED*, past tense. Just because she enjoyed an activity at the time doesn't mean she STILL would enjoy it.
> 
> People change. Why doesn't anyone seem to get that?


Couldn't agree with this more.

As an example, in MY past, I would have immensely enjoyed having "porn" sex with the few women I dated, and would have no problem doing something such as (sorry to be graphic) ****ing on a girl's face (if she was okay with it!). It would have been enjoyable to me, at that time. Possibly enjoyable for her, too.

Now that I'm married, I have NO desire to do this sort of thing to/with my wife, even though I enjoyed it with other women. Even if she asked me to, I'm not sure I'd get the same pleasure out of it.

There can be a difference in the type of sex you have with one partner vs. another. What's enjoyable and exciting with one, doesn't necessarily mean it will be with the other.

I don't think OP's wife is under any law that states she has to do "a, b or c" with hubby, just because she's done it in the past. Lying about it wasn't cool, but she had her reasons, I guess. If she doesn't see her husband in the same, dirty, adventurous way she saw previous partners, that's OKAY. She wasn't married to them, and/or didn't have the same respect she has for hubby. (or for herself, or the other men).

HOWEVER... I don't see why she can't give OP a bone and let him try one, or some of these things, even just once. As long as it's within the confines of the marriage (ie. no 3-somes), and that SHE makes the rules (it hurts, you stop), I don't see why it wouldn't do anything but help the marriage.

I had never had anal sex before. My wife had, a few times. She didn't HATE it, but she did derive pleasure from it in the past. She could take it or leave it, but preferably leave it. She had done it, it was okay, she didn't have the desire to do it again, but she wasn't opposed to it. I never pushed the issue with her, ever, and we eventually did try it out. She was able to have orgasms from it (!!!), but in the end, it wasn't worth the trouble for either of us. And for me, personally, it didn't do much for my enjoyment. I could take it or leave it. If she wanted it as part of our regular sex, I'd oblige. She doesn't, so I'm just as happy to not do it.

Point is, she threw me that bone, under her rules. It was enjoyable, but not something that either of us could live without. Case closed. At least I got the chance, and I can scratch that one off the list. 

OP's wife saying "no", period, isn't that cool. I don't believe our spouses are here to do what WE want, but at the same time, if she knows that it CAN be pleasurable, that HE wants to try it, then what the hell is the problem? I get why he's feeling the way he does - rejected, not good enough, etc.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Thunder7 said:


> Wow, you are not going to make many female friends here. Guys on the other hand.........
> 
> And if your avatar name refers to two particular colors (silver and black), you might be my new best friend.


I think women ( and some men) dont realized that their sex life is not separate from their spouses. The choices you made are not about you alone. What you choose not to experience is also forced on your mate. My concern is not that she chooses not to , my concern is why does she not willing, passionately, lovingly do what he likes? Really, you have a chance to make your mates eyes roll inside his head and you pass it up.....why?  Sex is immensely important to men and to withhold is cruel. BTW: My avatar name is my highschool mascot an 1776 Raider. Girls from that particular High school were called Raider Girls. I'll be your friend anyway.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Starstarfish said:


> And she has the option of saying no thanks. Sorry, having a sexual past doesn't mean you lose all rights of choice. So why does she *have* to do anything?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her sex life is attached to his, her choices become his choices, her denials become his denials. When she doesnt play, neither does he.
I suppose she doesnt "have" to do anything but the question is why would she not do something, anything at least once just because he wants it? 
Sex is immensely important to men and to withhold is cruel and cold. Thats my story and I am sticking to it. 


_Did you know that your avatar name Starfish is a negative sexual situation called Starfish Sex which referrs to a mate that just lays there passionless._


----------



## LoveLonely

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I have read some. What is frustrating to me is that, from what I have read here, there seems to be two camps of thought. The way I see it, BOTH camps are correct. And this gets into something very, very close that I have taught my daughter: whatever one does, they are going to have to live with for the rest of their life. If they choose to not share that with a significant other, then that relationship is already started poorly and will have a negative impact. If they DO choose to share, then considering what it is, may very well have a negative impact, but is the ONLY chance that relationship will have to living to its full potential, with BOTH partners feeling fully loved, and fully free of secrets.

I have said before, if my partner were to not want to do something with me that she enjoyed or even THOUGHT about in her past, that would be a problem for me. Likewise, she feels the same way about me. We are fortunate that we have done, or talk about far more than either of us ever had in our past. I will also say there was some resistance in the beginning. But let's hypothetically say that she decided it was none of my business. Or let's suppose that she refused to do or try things with me that she had done or thought about in the past. I know in my heart that I would have either walked, or it would have hurt me so much that the relationship would have been destroyed. The same would be true if the tables were turned. But that is just US. Had the relationship ended, no one's rights would have been violated, and no one would have been obligated to do something they don't want to do.

I DO think it is a poor choice of words to say a significant other OWES the other something. Or to say "she had better give it up," or "he IS going to do that for me, etc. However, it is simply a cruder, less sensitive way of making the exact same point. 

Relationships are difficult. This stuff has to be worked out or there will be problems. And the saddest outcome of all, im my opinion, would be the following: one partner refuses to consider a certain act. The other partner is hurt but backs down. They live their entire life together with one partner hurt, and the other partner proud, not even aware of the hurt caused. Not even aware of the weak foundation that is a serious cause of everything in the relationship. Having nothing else to compare it to, either partner not even aware of how lacking the relationship is. That to me is far sadder than two free individuals negotiating, and one simply saying, no matter how painful, I can't live with that; we need to move on.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Thor said:


> It totally depends on the acts we're talking about, and the context.
> 
> If she gave oral to a number of men before him, and if she says she enjoyed it, then it means something that she will not do it with her husband. It means something that she no longer finds it fun.
> 
> ]
> 
> That makes me think of an old joke ...
> Why do brides smile when they walk down the asle?
> Because they know they have given their last blowjob.
> 
> A Question for you. Do you think its fair that either mate withhold a sexual act because it's no longer "fun" even when they know their mate wants it? Think of the emotional harm that kind of attitude can have on the other person. Its like your mate is holding part of your satisfaction hostage.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Sex is immensely important to men and to withhold is cruel and cold. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I think using the "male ego" and "it's immensely important to men" as a way to guilt people into sex acts they aren't interested in is also kind of cruel. 



> The choices you made are not about you alone. What you choose not to experience is also forced on your mate.


That's about life in general when you are married, not just about sex. 



> Did you know that your avatar name Starfish is a negative sexual situation called Starfish Sex which referrs to a mate that just lays there passionless.


No, I actually hadn't realized that when I chose it (I'd literally never heard that before, I'd always heard "dead fish" but not -starfish- specifically.) But a reference to such in this thread clued me it. Guess I'll just have to deal with that association, as I'm not making a new account.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Do you think its fair that either mate withhold a sexual act because it's no longer "fun" even when they know their mate wants it? Think of the emotional harm that kind of attitude can have on the other person. Its like your mate is holding part of your satisfaction hostage.


So, what's the emotional harm of having sex you don't want to make someone else happy? Isn't that kind of degrading? It's like your mate is holding you hostage to their satisfaction.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Ironic


----------



## chillymorn

emotional blackmail.

it seems to be it happens on both sides.

should men do things their not very fond of to show they love their mate even if its concomfortable.

things like taking her to the opera even if you don't enjoy the opera? 

or going outside their comfort zone financial so she can be a sahm?

and should women do the same.

I say yes! 
going the extra mile so to speak and doing so in a loving way by not complaining or acting like its some huge deal that they are giving whatever to their spouce is key.

I'm sure my wife would not enjoy me going somewhere that was important to her if I acted like a cry baby about it.

and I also would not want anything from her that her attitude conveyed a similiar message.

each and every marriage has to navigate some of this and its a hard road for most couples.


----------



## Starstarfish

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ironic


I know, really. Sex is an emotional thing for both men and women. 

Say what? :scratchhead:


----------



## Fozzy

RaiderGirl said:


> Thor said:
> 
> 
> 
> It totally depends on the acts we're talking about, and the context.
> 
> If she gave oral to a number of men before him, and if she says she enjoyed it, then it means something that she will not do it with her husband. It means something that she no longer finds it fun.
> 
> ]
> 
> That makes me think of an old joke ...
> Why do brides smile when they walk down the asle?
> Because they know they have given their last blowjob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just made me spray coffee out my nose.
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Larry said: "I think perhaps the reason you're so invested in this story is that you DO feel judged by others here."

:scratchhead:

Where is that coming from? I don't feel judged by anyone. If anyone does judge me, I could care less (it is their right to do so). I am a huge wh*re, Larry, *and I like myself*. I blog about it. Do you really think I worry about people judging me? If I was worried about that, there are quite a few blog posts I've made that I should be SO ASHAMED of....right? Shame, shame on me.

And as far as me having nothing to contribute to this thread and "bashing" everyone....WOW! WTF? There are several other people here saying the same as I am. They also have nothing to contribute? ONLY YOU or anyone who agrees with you has something to contribute?


----------



## RaiderGirl

Starstarfish said:


> So, what's the emotional harm of having sex you don't want to make someone else happy? Isn't that kind of degrading? It's like your mate is holding you hostage to their satisfaction.


[

Youre talking about being forced into something disagreeable. I am talking about witholding. Its understood that being forced is negative for all involved. Witholding is something that I could do "cause it wouldnt kill me but geez I just dont like it that much so I wont and since mate has vowed fidelity he just has to accept it. 

Forced is being made to do something you simply could not abide by. For example, for me, as much as I want to please him I could not accept a threesome even if I had done that earlier in my life simply because I think its harmful for a married couple. At least it would be for us. But if he wanted me to for example to dominate him ( he does not and i dont) i would find a way to do so on occasion because even if I dont like it, he does and i like that I make him happy. 

Com'on StarFish, surely we agree on this....yes?


.


----------



## Starstarfish

I agree with your idea, Chillymorn, that give and take is important in a relationship, whether about sex or activities or finances or anything else. And yet, experiences tells us that all of those things are not given the same consideration and footing. And further, the reactions will change depending on if its a male or female poster making the complaints. 



> or going outside their comfort zone financial so she can be a sahm?


How is that scenario often addressed on TAM? I can tell you from my own thread dealing with financial issues, it was that I was -forcing- something onto H, crushing his soul by making him do things he didn't like. There was little sympathy from males in that direction. In short, I should fix the problem by adjusting my expectations. That if only I was -a better wife- things would magically be fixed. 

But that same mindset isn't applied to posts from male posters complaining about sex. Who ever suggests that the reason the wife isn't into it or interested has something to do with -him- rather than with her? 

If the wife is revealed to have any sort of sexual past, then it because a psycho-analysis about her #1s and how "hot" she obviously was for the other guys. (Because women never have sex for any other reason that being "hot" for someone, even though people are suggesting right here on the thread she do so as a "loving gift.") But, if that same psycho-analysis is posted about the male OP, it's all up in arms about how we aren't qualified to make those judgements.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Ironic? My replies or someones avatar name?


----------



## Starstarfish

RaiderGirl said:


> [
> 
> Youre talking about being forced into something disagreeable. I am talking about witholding. Its understood that being forced is negative for all involved. Witholding is something that I could do "cause it wouldnt kill me but geez I just dont like it that much so I wont and since mate has vowed fidelity he just has to accept it.
> 
> Forced is being made to do something you simply could not abide by. For example, for me, as much as I want to please him I could not accept a threesome even if I had done that earlier in my life simply because I think its harmful for a married couple. At least it would be for us. But if he wanted me to for example to dominate him ( he does not and i dont) i would find a way to do so on occasion because even if I dont like it, he does and i like that I make him happy.
> 
> Com'on StarFish, surely we agree on this....yes?
> 
> 
> .


Okay, but isn't that splitting hairs? You get to determine for you that a threesome is out-of-bounds but the OP's wife, you said just needs to "bend over, pucker up, and slap the cuffs on."
Why are the two of you different? Why do you get self-agency to determine that threesomes are out of bounds, I mean, by your own thinking, it wouldn't kill you ... right? And you are withholding something your husband would enjoy? Isn't that cruel?



> Frankly, she has to serve it up.Don't care why there is denial , don't care for an explanation, not looking for logic and you don't have to explain why you want "it". Her secret past is out, and you want it in the present with you.....so tell her bend over, pucker up,click the hand-cuffs, whatever, just do it.


Why don't you just have to "serve it up" but she does?


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> Maybe she did and the OP didn't tell us that.
> 
> Oh wait...wouldn't that be "lying"?


There you go again.

Maybe she's still doing all those same things with other guys right now, cuckolding the OP.

See, I can make stuff up, too!


----------



## jaharthur

Vega said:


> Answer: AN EMOTIONALLY SECURE man. A man who is in control of his ego. A man who knows that a healthy mature relationship has no room for ego. A man who realizes that his wife did "things" with other men BEFORE him, which has NO BEARING on _his_ relationship with her. A man who 'gets' that people can change over time. A man who knows that HE has probably changed over time as well. A man who knows that his wife isn't OBLIGATED to share ALL herself with him, and that he will NEVER have ALL of her past. A man who keeps his petty jealousies "in check" and who isn't in competition with his wife's past.
> 
> That's it for starters. Shall I go on?
> 
> Vega


No, please don't.


----------



## wilderness

I wish we could all go back in time and share sex with only our husband/wife.

The consequences of sex reverberate forever. They effect everyone. People we'll never meet will be hurt. Some of them will hurt others or lose their lovers/spouses as a result. The people we had sex with will experience powerful destabilizing emotions. Especially shame, which is often repressed. It shows up years later as anger, addictions, or over compensation in the form of arrogance. Then they get married and those emotions are added to their partner.
Don't even get me started on sexual abuse of children. I've got a present for you, it's a ticking time bomb. See you in 30 years.

I hate this world.

God had it right, sex should only be between a husband and wife.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

RaiderGirl said:


> Ironic? My replies or someones avatar name?



Haha. Telling could get me in trouble.


----------



## RaiderGirl

We could eaisily form four groups in any sex posting on TAM..

One group is satisfied with their sex lives.

2nd group is dissatified with their sex lives.

3rd group is causing the dissatisfaction.

4th group is defensive on which of the above group they know they belong.

Just say"in....


----------



## RaiderGirl

Starstarfish said:


> Okay, but isn't that splitting hairs? You get to determine for you that a threesome is out-of-bounds but the OP's wife, you said just needs to "bend over, pucker up, and slap the cuffs on."
> Why are the two of you different? Why do you get self-agency to determine that threesomes are out of bounds, I mean, by your own thinking, it wouldn't kill you ... right? And you are withholding something your husband would enjoy? Isn't that cruel?
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you just have to "serve it up" but she does?


Because a threesome is outside the vows we had already agreed on and committed to." keep myself only onto you". She on the other hand is withholding.


----------



## RaiderGirl

WorkingOnMe said:


> Haha. Telling could get me in trouble.


youre in group one .


----------



## Starstarfish

So withholding is any sex act besides threesomes?

Good to know.


----------



## coupdegrace

Call me crazy, but why would you divulge some (possibly taboo) sexual act that you regularly performed early in your youth with other men? Even worse, you enjoyed it with these guys, and now refuse to do it with your current guy? It's like telling your current man that he's not good enough, well, that's how I would take it. Why not keep your experimental-phase past to yourself and keep the peace? Some things are better left unsaid.

Sorry if this has already been addressed. I've popped in and out of this thread and may have missed something.


----------



## Starstarfish

The wife didn't reveal it, a best friend did. Which honestly, step one for the OP's wife should be getting a new best friend, pronto.


----------



## Starstarfish

If people want to be insinuate insults, I'd say they should balls-up and say it, not make half-handed remarks. But, I won't name names. 

For any insinuation about myself, however, I'm not a poster over on the "cumulative count of the year" thread discussing how I've had sex once in 6 years. Where people can literally count how many times they've had sex this year. I've never had to threaten a spouse with divorce because they won't have sex with me. By accounts, I seem to have more sex than some of the self-proclaimed "Alphas" around here. (Well, not ScubaSteve, I can't compete with that.  )

And indeed, in my relationship, I'm not indeed "the Starfish" - we've never had a "withholding" scenario in my marriage because my husband doesn't have any such requests for me to deny. He has hang-ups because of religious upbringing, so if anything, I'm the one that "settles" about things. 

However, I have indeed been with a partner who demanded X, Y, and Z because of the "male ego" when he was pressured by a colleague to "remind me my place." I know what it's like to be with some one who believes sex is something the male partner is -owed- and what it's like to be blackmailed into sex. 

So, I have some insight, just of a different kind. I am not indeed an advocate for lame effortless sex. I just believe sex in the end, needs to be a choice. Because for everyone advocating "just get over it and do it" - and you've never actually been in that situation, it can wreck some real emotional havoc.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

RaiderGirl said:


> youre in group one .



Actually I'm in group 2. But by every objective measure I should be in group 1. It's the 'can't be satisfied no matter how good it is' personality fault.


----------



## jaharthur

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, she clearly did not want him to know this about herself.
> 
> And somehow others get to decide if that is right or wrong, on a moral level.
> 
> We don't know this wife's story.
> 
> We don't know why a friend said what she did.
> 
> How does the friend know whether the wife "enjoyed" it and was into it? The wife may have said "sure, it was great" 20 years ago but was lying.


So why doesn't she tell him that? Ultimately, I've viewed this as a debate about whether "because" is a good enough answer. I don't think it's ever a good enough answer. But there are many perfectly good answers, some suggested in this thread. If any of them apply, then the OP's wife should just give him the ones that do. But by just saying "because" she exacerbates the issue. Communication is so important.

Sure, we can speculate that she DID give a good answer and he just ignored it. But take it as a hypothetical, then: if her only answer is "because", is that enough?

Many of the women and one or two of the men here think "because" is good enough. I don't. There is where we part.


----------



## jaharthur

Faithful Wife said:


> I think part of the problem here is that people get married without sowing all their wild oats first.
> 
> If you are satisfied with your own sexual history, you rarely hold what others did against them.


On this, we can agree.


----------



## jaharthur

ScarletBegonias said:


> There always seems to be two separate camps in these discussions. There also happened to be two separate issues so there would be four camps LOL
> 
> first issue, do you tell your spouse the dirty details about your past?
> second issue,are you obligated to perform the same sex acts with your current partner as you did with past partners?
> 
> Each issue seems to have two sides. I guess the happiness of your marriage could depend on whether or not you and your spouse are in the same camp for both of those issues.


Third issue: if for one reason or another your past comes up, not through your partner's questioning like a jerk, and your partner asks "how come that's off the table between us," does your partner deserve better than "because"?


----------



## Cletus

When I first came to TAM, I asked more-or-less the following question:

Is it unreasonable to ask for any of the following in my marriage, none of which were at the time acceptable to my wife -

Intimate touching
Fellatio
Cunnilingus
Mutual masturbation
Showering together
Sex in any position where you are not facing each other directly

It was more or less roundly agreed that the "just because" answer to the "why can't we expand our sex life to incorporate some of these things" question was not in fact acceptable. 

So what's the difference? That she never tried them (save one) with anyone before me? Of course not. It's a completely subjective question with a completely subjective answer that we all make up on the fly according to how we feel and the social norms to which we ascribe. 

"Just because" is never a satisfactory answer even when it's the only answer we may get.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jaharthur....My feeling is that if she was mean about the lying when she was found out, if she wasn't apologetic and tender about his feelings...then that is a bummer. I hope she was apologetic and I hope she really tried to show empathy for the husband's feelings.

But I don't think the husband has written an account of exactly what was said by whom, how the whole thing came about, etc. What did the friend say and in what context? When the husband says the wife lied, does he just mean he asked one time when they were dating if she'd ever done anything wild and she said "no" and then they never talked about it again, dated for a long time, ended up married? Or did he ask her multiple times about specific acts which she denied multiple times over time? How did this friend know the wife "enjoyed it"?

Without these details...I don't see why people are assuming anything about what the wife has said or done. And if this husband is brow beating the wife, I can see why she would be reluctant to discuss it with him at ALL.


----------



## jaharthur

pink_lady said:


> I didn't read through the 38 pages so I'm sure this was probably discussed but...
> 
> Does everyone sit down and spill the details of every sexual act they performed with every old boyfriend/partner?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I have never had ANY interest in hearing all about what my boyfriends did sexually with their ex's, and I have not told my boyfriends all about my sexual experiences with other guys.
> 
> Like, why on earth would either partner WANT to hear about that?
> 
> I'm interested in where a man is sexually NOW, with ME, only. I thought that was the norm, but I guess not?


While I agree with this in general, I think that there are some exceptions, especially if one is considering marriage. Certain past conduct might well be a predictor of marriage failure. As an example, cheating on someone multiple times when that person thought there was a commitment. Red flag.


----------



## Thor

coupdegrace said:


> Call me crazy, but why would you divulge some (possibly taboo) sexual act that you regularly performed early in your youth with other men? Even worse, you enjoyed it with these guys, and now refuse to do it with your current guy? It's like telling your current man that he's not good enough, well, that's how I would take it. Why not keep your experimental-phase past to yourself and keep the peace? Some things are better left unsaid.
> 
> Sorry if this has already been addressed. I've popped in and out of this thread and may have missed something.


What if, for me, what she experimented with is a deal breaker? What if she did something which I just cannot accept? Don't I have the right to make an informed decision if this is a person I want to have a long term relationship with, and possibly have children with?

Isn't it wrong to deceive someone into making a decision they would not have made?

Doesn't it do great harm in the future when the truth comes out? Isn't is morally wrong to do such harm?

I found out some things when I leafed through my wife's high school yearbook. The truth has a way of coming out eventually.


----------



## Cletus

Thor said:


> What if, for me, what she experimented with is a deal breaker? What if she did something which I just cannot accept? Don't I have the right to make an informed decision if this is a person I want to have a long term relationship with, and possibly have children with?


And what if I experimented with something I know is a dealbreaker for you, I'm ashamed or at least penitent of my mistake, and intend never to do it again as long as we both shall live?

One of the ways we grow and learn is by making mistakes. Are we then not allowed the fruits of that growth?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jaharthur said:


> Third issue: if for one reason or another your past comes up, not through your partner's questioning like a jerk, and your partner asks "how come that's off the table between us," does your partner deserve better than "because"?


personally speaking,my partner always deserves as detailed of an answer as I can give provided he actually wants to know.
This is what the sexual past/sorry I don't do those things with you conversation looked like in our house:
To loosely quote him, "I know you've done things sexually you've regretted and only did them bc you thought you had to in order to get love and attention.I'd rather be the man who knows you as you are now. Classy, sexy, loving,thoughtful and beautiful with a backbone of steal.That's all I need to know.I'm happy I get the real you and not the wild false version of you.I'm a regular guy and you fulfill every fantasy I could ever think to have."

I can live with that  He's not often wordy but when he is I usually end up with my jaw on the floor and tears on my face LOL


----------



## RaiderGirl

WorkingOnMe said:


> Haha. Telling could get me in trouble.





Starstarfish said:


> So withholding is any sex act besides threesomes?
> 
> Good to know.


Dam it...I hate to be wrong . Perhaps "serve it up" was a bit harsh. I meant she should think think about sharing a sexual act that she enjoyed in the past with her mate now because it would mean so much to him .
I think for him its not an act itself that is bothering him its the fact that he is excluded. 

I am HD so sometimes I have to step back and try really hard to see the other side. Most of the times I fail at that.

I'm sorry for your situation and for any innuendos I may have caused. There are real starfish sex women and they know who they are.

Oh yeah on the no-way list of sexual acts besides threesomes you can add Goats on Fire. :rofl:


----------



## treyvion

The more I read this thread the less OK the entire concept of them doing it for someone else but not me, if I'm really with them.


----------



## Thor

Cletus said:


> And what if I experimented with something I know is a dealbreaker for you, I'm ashamed or at least penitent of my mistake, and intend never to do it again as long as we both shall live?
> 
> One of the ways we grow and learn is by making mistakes. Are we then not allowed the fruits of that growth?


This is not my belief system, but it is the only example I can think of which is within the realm of reasonably possible.

Let's imagine a woman engaged in 3-somes regularly. Let's say she enjoyed them, and they frequently involved another female and a male. Let's further say that I find homosexuality repugnant due to religious beliefs.

I better make the disclaimer again. This is not my belief system! Just an example.

So wouldn't it be my right to know that a woman I was considering marrying had enjoyed numerous experiences which violated a deeply held belief of mine? Wouldn't it be possible that there is a significant disconnect between our value systems which makes us ultimately incompatible?

If she has indeed changed her beliefs and now is in lockstep with my views of it, perhaps we can be a good match. Or perhaps even though she agrees with my beliefs, I can't get over the fact she did those things.

Perhaps she hasn't changed her belief system, though she has no desire to do those things again. In that case we really are a mismatch at a deep level.

To make another example, let's say for me I am comfortable with a woman whose number is more than 10. If my fiance's number is 11, don't I have the right to know and the right to decide if I can continue?

I can see a situation where she might even say that she had a couple of ONS which she has felt badly about for the last 20 years. She regrets it, and it was not consistent with who she really was. For the last 20 years she was monogamously married, and is now divorced. So in my mind I might recalculate my tolerance.

Isn't this all my right as a human to make informed decisions? I think we all have the right to our values and deal breakers, even if they are not popular.


----------



## RaiderGirl

ScarletBegonias said:


> personally speaking,my partner always deserves as detailed of an answer as I can give provided he actually wants to know.
> This is what the sexual past/sorry I don't do those things with you conversation looked like in our house:
> To loosely quote him, "I know you've done things sexually you've regretted and only did them bc you thought you had to in order to get love and attention.I'd rather be the man who knows you as you are now. Classy, sexy, loving,thoughtful and beautiful with a backbone of steal.That's all I need to know.I'm happy I get the real you and not the wild false version of you.I'm a regular guy and you fulfill every fantasy I could ever think to have."
> 
> I can live with that  He's not often wordy but when he is I usually end up with my jaw on the floor and tears on my face LOL


Your man is a keeper but Im sure you already know that. Mine said he wasnt interested in being my first, he wants to be my last. I keep him too.


----------



## jaharthur

I went back and collected the OP's comments that I thought formed the crux of his issue. He said it more than once. I've highlighted some of what I thought were the more significant statements.



nogutsnoglory said:


> She did it then because she wanted to. No memory needed
> Question still remains..you have done it enjoyed it, I would like to do it, *why can't you do it with me*?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





nogutsnoglory said:


> So i should leave a faithful wife, mother of my 2 kids whom I have been with for 20 years *because she will not give me a good answer to my question.* Your right, no reason to come on a forum to try to figure this out, just give it all up.
> Good advice





nogutsnoglory said:


> You have been clearly trying your best to minimize how I feel.
> *Again i started the thread confused as to why. I am not confused about who's demon this is, but last I checked we are allowed to ask why from our spouse. My demon could be lifted with a logical answer to this question*.





nogutsnoglory said:


> ZZZZZZZZZ
> *She owes me nothing but a good reason.* So yes, i am entitled to a reason, if I thought I was entitled to any sexual act then that would have had little to do with learning of her past lovers fortune, I would have felt entitled to it on my own doing long ago. *This thread is about the why?* Feel free to start another thread with faithful wife about how men are not entitled to anything and I will happily not join your discussion.





nogutsnoglory said:


> *I do not wish to cast a ton of guilt on her. I never thought asking why would be so hard. I figured she had a good reason and was okay with that until the reason was nonsensical and now I am confused. I do not want to pressure her, I just wish I understood and this is why I am here to discuss the topic.*


*The guy KNOWS it's his demon.* He just wants an answer so he can understand. I do not consider this an unreasonable position. This situation did not arise because he incessantly badgered his wife about her past, it arose because of his wife's idiot girlfriend. (Can we at least agree the gf should be drawn and quartered--figuratively of course?)

Now, maybe there are more facts; maybe she DID give him an answer that the vast majority of us would believe is plenty good enough. I can imagine all kinds of good reasons and many here have suggested others. In that case, I'd tell the guy to STFU. But if the answer really was on the order of "because" or "that was then and this is now", I don't think it cuts the mustard.

At least there is one clear benefit of this thread: I learned how to use the multi-quote function.


----------



## Cletus

Thor said:


> This is not my belief system, but it is the only example I can think of which is within the realm of reasonably possible.


Like all tough questions, the answers are unsatisfactory for some circumstances.

I think I would amend your statement to the following - 

You do deserve complete disclosure from your mate, but in exchange for that disclosure, they deserve some level of forgiveness for past transgressions from you.

An equally legitimate problem in your scenario is the fact that someone would let past behavior for which the other party is truly sorry or at least has put completely in their past be a deal breaker. Is that personality defect any less disturbing than the lying a discerning mate might undertake to avoid it? 

I personally want to know as much about my partner's past as I can learn, but not to use as a club with which to beat them down. I want honesty as a relationship builder, not a relationship destroyer. 

Nonetheless, I can understand why others might see it the other way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

She did answer his question and he claims the "reason" was "nonsensical".

OK.

So how can any of us give him any answer? She has her reasons. He claims they are nonsensical. We are not all the same, therefore, how can we know what her "real and nonsensical" answer is? The answer he will actually accept doesn't probably exist.


----------



## RaiderGirl

Vega said:


> Yanno...if you read the OP's first post on this thread, it seems that he is MORE upset with the idea that his wife won't do these sexual things with him, and the lying is _secondary_.


Actually, I believe he is mostly upset that she gives no reason. 
It was a :just because" answer which delutes his place in her life.. He doesnt want the act as much as an answer. 

Orginal PO . With near 100% certainly she didnt tell you before because she feared your reaction and she was too cowardly to test the marriage.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Does anybody else think that the notion of forgiveness is being glossed over here? We are human: we ALL screw up. We are human: we ALL have frailties and faults, insecurities and emotional achilles heels. 

Maybe the wife lied knowing it was a deal breaker because she wanted him in her life and didn't want to risk losing him, maybe she did it because she was embarrassed or legitimately felt that the truth would hurt her husband's feelings or cause unneeded tension. Maybe she never in a million years imagined that it would come back to haunt her marriage in this way. 

After all these years, is it not in the OP's heart to look for some understanding as to what her motivations could have been when she was younger, more naive, perhaps knew less about relationships and intimacy? After all these years is it not in his wife's heart to swallow her pride and say "I messed up, and I'm sorry, let me try to help you process this even though I don't understand it"? 

Why does it have to be about assigning blame? Where is the grace? 

I have to say, this thread has caused me to do a fair amount of self-reflecting. It's an exercise I recommend, no matter which camp you fall into on this issue.


----------



## BradWesley

jaharthur said:


> I went back and collected the OP's comments that I thought formed the crux of his issue. He said it more than once. I've highlighted some of what I thought were the more significant statements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The guy KNOWS it's his demon.* He just wants an answer so he can understand. I do not consider this an unreasonable position. This situation did not arise because he incessantly badgered his wife about her past, it arose because of his wife's idiot girlfriend. (Can we at least agree the gf should be drawn and quartered--figuratively of course?)
> 
> Now, maybe there are more facts; maybe she DID give him an answer that the vast majority of us would believe is plenty good enough. I can imagine all kinds of good reasons and many here have suggested others. In that case, I'd tell the guy to STFU. But if the answer really was on the order of "because" or "that was then and this is now", I don't think it cuts the mustard.
> 
> At least there is one clear benefit of this thread: I learned how to use the multi-quote function.


I'll play devil's advocate. Suppose she does tell him the truth, and it goes like this: She's had sex with four guys, including her H. Two of those guys were complete HD freaks, and curled her toes and rocked her world. In other words if there was a four man race, her H would finish a distant third. 

Why would she want to do that and possibly destroy a good marriage of 20 years. 

It brings to mind the words of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men "You can't handle the truth"


----------



## ScarletBegonias

GettingIt said:


> Does anybody else think that the notion of forgiveness is being glossed over here? We are human: we ALL screw up. We are human: we ALL have frailties and faults, insecurities and emotional achilles heels.
> 
> Maybe the wife lied knowing it was a deal breaker because she wanted him in her life and didn't want to risk losing him, maybe she did it because she was embarrassed or legitimately felt that the truth would hurt her husband's feelings or cause unneeded tension. Maybe she never in a million years imagined that it would come back to haunt her marriage in this way.
> 
> After all these years, is it not in the OP's heart to look for some understanding as to what her motivations could have been when she was younger, more naive, perhaps knew less about relationships and intimacy? After all these years is it not in his wife's heart to swallow her pride and say "I messed up, and I'm sorry, let me try to help you process this even though I don't understand it"?
> 
> Why does it have to be about assigning blame? Where is the grace?
> 
> I have to say, this thread has caused me to do a fair amount of self-reflecting. It's an exercise I recommend, no matter which camp you fall into on this issue.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Fozzy

GettingIt said:


> Does anybody else think that the notion of forgiveness is being glossed over here? We are human: we ALL screw up. We are human: we ALL have frailties and faults, insecurities and emotional achilles heels.
> 
> Maybe the wife lied knowing it was a deal breaker because she wanted him in her life and didn't want to risk losing him, maybe she did it because she was embarrassed or legitimately felt that the truth would hurt her husband's feelings or cause unneeded tension. Maybe she never in a million years imagined that it would come back to haunt her marriage in this way.
> 
> After all these years, is it not in the OP's heart to look for some understanding as to what her motivations could have been when she was younger, more naive, perhaps knew less about relationships and intimacy? After all these years is it not in his wife's heart to swallow her pride and say "I messed up, and I'm sorry, let me try to help you process this even though I don't understand it"?
> 
> Why does it have to be about assigning blame? Where is the grace?
> 
> I have to say, this thread has caused me to do a fair amount of self-reflecting. It's an exercise I recommend, no matter which camp you fall into on this issue.


Very well said.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> Exactly, Sam. So why does this OP insist on asking for details? As far as I can tell, the OP's wife did NOT ever want to let him hear about her past, right? And she has every right not to tell him. This whole thread is about him insisting she DOES tell him.


So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may. 
I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over. 
I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman. 
She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)

She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.

I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well. 

Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wow.


----------



## Faithful Wife

noguts said: "We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her *simply because she is a woman*."


I would like to point out that I would defend a man in this scenario, too.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



GettingIt said:


> Does anybody else think that the notion of forgiveness is being glossed over here? We are human: we ALL screw up. We are human: we ALL have frailties and faults, insecurities and emotional achilles .


Everyone here absolutely supports the idea of communication and forgiveness ... just as soon as the opposition admits they're totally wrong.


----------



## Cletus

nogutsnoglory said:


> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.


This is your definition of an otherwise good marriage? 

I was at least a little on your side through this lovely jaunt, until now, but after that, the things I'd like to say would likely get me banned. Apparently your fragile ego really is only exceeded by your sense of ownership and entitlement.


----------



## I Don't Know

nogutsnoglory said:


> So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
> Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
> My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may.
> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (*mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math*)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


Yep, I'd say that's a problem. That clearly shows, to me anyway, that she is holding on to that experience and saving that for her and him. I'd be pissed too.


----------



## GettingIt_2

nogutsnoglory said:


> So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
> Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
> My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may.
> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


I've got two conflicting feelings, OP.

1. I've gotten a troll-like vibe from this thread from the beginning, but you walked the line just enough to keep me coming back. 

Until now. 

OR

2. You're hurting really bad and have no intention of doing any of those things. Anonymous internet forums are a good place to safely exorcise demons that you know will otherwise eat you up and affect a marriage that you are really quite happy with. 

Understandable. 

If I'm wrong on both counts, and you are sincere in your intentions, then I leave you with this thought: We get the life that we deserve. 

Peace.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Deejo said:


> Everyone here absolutely supports the idea of communication and forgiveness ... just as soon as the opposition admits they're totally wrong.


When your spouse becomes the "opposition" wouldn't you think the marriage is over?


----------



## bandit.45

Rubber suits and K-Y? 

Seriously? That's what this has been about ?

M'kay. It was still crappy of her to brag about it to the GF and lie to him all these years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> Rubber suits and K-Y?
> 
> Seriously? That's what this has been about ?
> 
> M'kay. *It was still crappy of her to brag about it to the GF and lie to him all these years.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. And this is what I mean by the past ALWAYS come back.


----------



## Jibril

Not sure why everyone is so stunned by Noguts' response. Isn't "accept it or move on" what several posters urged him to do from the get-go? Accept that his wife was a sexual and adventurous creature prior to their marriage and does not want to be as such now, or move on to greener pastures.

He's being a bit (RE: exceedingly) tyranical about it, and his post reeks of resentment and hostility, but I don't disagree with his stance, despite how negative and abusive it comes off as in the end. 

Just keep this in mind, Noguts. You're giving your wife an ultimatum at this point, and a harsh one at that. Her choices are not ones she would have made willingly. She can be strong-armed into sex she doesnt want, or she can end her marriage with you.

I'm a pleased you are standing up for yourself, I must admit. But don't be surprised if this blows up in your face.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam said: "Yep. And this is what I mean by the past ALWAYS come back."

Sam, do you honestly think the sex acts of EVERY spouse that happened BEFORE their marriage is going to "come back"?

Do you honestly think the sex acts of EVERY spouse that happened BEFORE their marriage is actually important to EVERY spouse?

Do you think everyone feels the same on this?

You can't imagine any couple who aren't full of retro-active jealousy?

You can't imagine a scenario where spouses are actually happy for each other for their previous sexcapades?

Further more, what all comes back?

If you watched some really freaky porn in the past, do you expect it to "come back" and haunt your current relationship?

If you went to strip clubs, will those strippers approach you on the street one day while you're with your current partner?

Just how far does this "always comes back" thing go?

If you imagined having sex with someone in the past, does that "come back" too? What if it was really involved fantasies that lasted for years about your wife's sister? Are ou obligated to reveal those fantasies??


----------



## Tall Average Guy

nogutsnoglory said:


> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


You have a ton of anger and resentment. You need to figure out why that is before you do anything else.

Edit - I want to add that I think it is very likely that you still resent her for lying about her past. In other posts, you say you don't hold any resentment, but I don't see that coming through in this most recent post.


----------



## Cletus

MaritimeGuy said:


> When your spouse becomes the "opposition" wouldn't you think the marriage is over?


Nah. You know those couples who come to parties, hold each other's hand all night, gaze longingly in each other's eyes, and always present themselves as a team against the world?

Nauseating, if you ask me. Better to have a spouse who can take a couple shots to the noggin', tell Mick "Cut me!", and get back in the ring for another round. 

Metaphorically speaking. Don't beat me up for a little hyperbole and poetic license, please.


----------



## Thor

Cletus said:


> You do deserve complete disclosure from your mate, but in exchange for that disclosure, they deserve some level of forgiveness for past transgressions from you.
> 
> An equally legitimate problem in your scenario is the fact that someone would let past behavior for which the other party is truly sorry or at least has put completely in their past be a deal breaker. Is that personality defect any less disturbing than the lying a discerning mate might undertake to avoid it?


Good points. If I am not able to accept something she did in the past which she now is honestly against doing, it is a flaw in me if you want to put it that way. I am not sure I would put it that way. If someone had done serious jail time for killing a person in an armed robbery but was now a law abiding citizen, it would not be in me to accept them as a life partner. Most likely I could not get past her previous life.

And it would be completely fair for her to then reject me. Whether we're talking some kind of sex act or any other past behavior. If I am unable to deal with it, she has the right to find me unsuitable.

To me this is the correct process. Disclosure of the past and then coming to an agreement either we are compatible or not.


----------



## Thor

nogutsnoglory said:


> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


NoGuts, I am impressed you have waded through all 3,000 pages of this thread. We ran off on all kinds of tangents.

I believe I really understand your position and feelings. I haven't posted too many details of my situation but there are a lot of commonalities. It isn't just the sex, it is the appearance that she holds you in a lower place than other men. And, she lied about her history.

Last summer my wife made a major mistake. She perpetrated an intentional deception regarding medical care for one of the kids. She tried to work it while I was out of town but I came home early from the trip and caught it. I had clearly drawn the line in the sand in previous discussions about deception in general and our kids' medical care in particular.

Suddenly all summer she was doing all kinds of things in bed (and everywhere else in the house) she had not done with me since before we were engaged. Stuff she did with other guys, and then with me in the early days.

When she didn't think she need to do it anymore, she didn't. When she feared divorce, suddenly it was all back on the table willingly.

I don't think I would take quite the approach you are with put out or get out. I think I would make it about the relationship or get out. Giving her the bedroom accessories is fine, and it sends the message. I am just not comfortable with making it all about the sex, because it isn't about the sex but she will take it that way.


----------



## LoveLonely

nogutsnoglory said:


> So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
> Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
> My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may.
> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


Amen! If I did my fiance the way she has done you, I wouldn't expect anything less. This is all so sad and tragic. It isn't about people not having the freewill to do what they want to do. This isn't about someone being strong armed into something they don't want. In my opinion, this is about exactly what this post says it is about. You, and ANYONE else (man or woman), deserves better than that.


----------



## Thor

I Don't Know said:


> Yep, I'd say that's a problem. That clearly shows, to me anyway, that she is holding on to that experience and saving that for her and him. I'd be pissed too.


I've heard it described as *emotional leakage*. Her holding onto this causes a leakage of her emotional energy away from the marriage.

It is totally fine to once in a while remember a fun time in the past. I liken it to stumbling upon an old prom photo or hearing the theme song from a movie you saw on a date. No big deal. But when it is something you hold onto like his wife did, it seems like it has too much meaning to her.


----------



## inarut

I see a mountain of pain more glaringly than the anger. I don't understand why she refuses to do with him things she has done in the past. Whether or mot the reasoning/ meaning he gives it is true or not for his wife she needs to ease this somehow. It is cruel to intentionally or not inflict this kind of pain on a spouse and do nothing about it. Does she have any clue how deeply this is affecting you? I would think she does not but she needs to. Your plan will not solve anything even if she goes through with what you want. You need to talk really openly and tell/show her just how much you are hurting. Show her your pain not your rage. Pain is where your rage is coming from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn

ngng

would you even want these act if she sighs and say ok ok I'll do it for you?

see the point is if anybody male or female is forced,guilt-ed,manipulated,etc,etc then I would be almost certain the the experience would be less then anticipated at best and down right crappy at worst.

I would ask for oral and get the .....do i have too and i would still push the end result the whole time I would have a difficult time even enjoying it at all. because if you have to ask usually they aren't going to do it with any type of enthusiasm. so your bummer it was so poor and their bummed they had to do it.

which then just build resentment on both side and then you grow farther and further apart. 

if they don't care about what you desire then they just don't desire you..... with in reason of course. 

your angry because you might be realizing that.

my advise is to have a calm discussion about it . Don't make any threats and let it sink in. then just decide if your compatible. And how important these truly are.

maybe try to create new experiences ones that would be freaky and exciting for both to do.

But if your really just done because of her less the stellar desire to be what you need sexually then that's your call.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Break out the lube or learn to mow the lawn woman! 

I may have found my new signature line.


----------



## Fozzy

NGNG, how long have you known about this? Make sure you have had time to process this before you start throwing ultimatums. You began the thread by saying you still love her and are not willing to divorce her, but if you don't take the right tack here that's exactly how it's going to end up.


----------



## COGypsy

nogutsnoglory said:


> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


You know it takes about 10 minutes to find a service you can pay to do the lawn, right? Maybe that's the solution--she can find a lawn service and you can find someone to service you. Then you'll have BOTH done X, Y and Z with someone else. Even Steven. 

Definitely get the motorcycle though....


----------



## inarut

chillymorn said:


> ngng
> 
> would you even want these act if she sighs and say ok ok I'll do it for you?
> 
> see the point is if anybody male or female is forced,guilt-ed,manipulated,etc,etc then I would be almost certain the the experience would be less then anticipated at best and down right crappy at worst.
> 
> I would ask for oral and get the .....do i have too and i would still push the end result the whole time I would have a difficult time even enjoying it at all. because if you have to ask usually they aren't going to do it with any type of enthusiasm. so your bummer it was so poor and their bummed they had to do it.
> 
> which then just build resentment on both side and then you grow farther and further apart.
> 
> if they don't care about what you desire then they just don't desire you..... with in reason of course.
> 
> your angry because you might be realizing that.
> 
> my advise is to have a calm discussion about it . Don't make any threats and let it sink in. then just decide if your compatible. And how important these truly are.
> 
> maybe try to create new experiences ones that would be freaky and exciting for both to do.
> 
> But if your really just done because of her less the stellar desire to be what you need sexually then that's your call.


I don't think it's really about the sexual acts in itself . It's what her denial says to him...that her ex was better, more desirable , more loved and just maybe she is still holding some kind of torch for him. Not saying that's the way his wife actuallu feels but these are the feelings he is left with..... Which really sucks..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

That reminds me....I need to lube the lawn mower.


----------



## COGypsy

WorkingOnMe said:


> That reminds me....I need to lube the lawn mower.


Hey--what you do out in the back shed is YOUR business! We don't need to hear you flaunting it all over the place! :rofl:


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

nogutsnoglory said:


> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


I guess I just don't understand how you expect this to have a good outcome. 

What is the best possible scenario? That you two will do it, she'll love it again, and you'll burn the house down with hot sex! Great! Unlikely, but great! 

What is MORE likely is that she will hate it, hate you, resent you for demanding/pressuring to do it. You will be pissed that she won't even PRETEND to enjoy it (after she told you she didn't want to do it) and you'll be dissatisfied and still feeling second-best. (cuz you can't make her LOVE it like her ex-bf did).

Even if she fakes loving it perfectly, you'll be raring for a repeat performance which she will not be. And you'll be back where you started at the beginning of this thread.

I hope you two CAN find a way to work things out, but it seems like it's going to be a long, hard battle.


----------



## BradWesley

nogutsnoglory said:


> So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
> Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
> My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may.
> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.


In one of your posts, you mentioned that you are not a "beta mess".

Where do you feel you stand regarding the Socio-Sexual Hieharchy?


----------



## Thunder7

Vega said:


> I read your original post along with all of the responses on that thread. It seems that most peeps were of the "get over it" mentality. I happen to agree...
> 
> With the information that you gave, I believe that your wife did NOT "lie" to you. She may not have told the truth, but that doesn't mean that she "lied".
> 
> A lie is an intention to deceive. There are two key elements to this definition. The first is 'intention'. An intention is something that is deliberate. No one lies "accidentally". It is ALWAYS deliberate.
> 
> Let's say that I'm a cashier counting back change to you. As I'm counting back the change to you, we both realize that I almost shortchanged you by $5. Did I deliberately try to "deceive" you? Or did I simply THINK that I pulled out 2 5's instead of one? People make mistakes like this every day, without there being any malice or ill-will behind it. While pulling the money out of the register I may have been momentarily distracted by another thought that came into my head. With all of the sights and sounds that are in a grocery store it's a wonder that MORE cashiers don't make that kind of mistake more often. Making a mistake like that is a human error. It's also a forgivable error.
> 
> Unfortunately, SOME people don't see it that way. They will take advantage of the cashier's humanity to yell at her, call her 'stupid' and accuse her of trying to 'rip off the customer', all in an effort to make themselves feel 'superior' to her. And of course, the cashier would have NO WAY of *proving* that she made a simple human error. After all, no one can read her mind. The only person who TRULY knows what was going on inside her head while she was counting out change...is *her*.
> 
> Your wife may very well be that proverbial cashier. She may have believed that she was quoting you an accurate number. But after she re-focused on it, she may have realized her error. It does NOT mean that she _intentionally_ deceived you...
> 
> ...which brings me to the second part of a lie: Deception.
> 
> Deception is the act of causing one to believe information that is not true or an untruth or not the whole truth. It is a DELIBERATE act. It is a conscious act.
> 
> Without being able to *prove* both intent AND deception, there is no 'lying'.
> 
> The law is very well aware that people can 'mis-speak' without "lying". They can 'not tell the whole truth' without lying. They can also unintentionally 'deceive' without 'lying'.
> 
> If they law can make allowances for people's humanity, perhaps you could make an allowance for your WIFE's humanity, and give the woman you love the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Vega


Vega, that was quite a response. I would love to respond but then I would be hijacking the thread even more than it already is. If you can paste it onto the end of my original post I will dive into it. This is the wrong place.


----------



## BlackIris

nogutsnoglory said:


> So it is okay for her girlfriend to know about it but not her Husband?
> Listen, I was fine with her not wanting certain sexual acts, and over the years was not pressing her to do things I was under the impression she did not enjoy. Now, knowing she did them, enjoyed them, enough that she has talked about it with her girlfriend, tells me a few things, and I am at a point in my life where I am not going to put up with that school girl bullsh** where, I never meant for you to hear that, and it was just girl talk, I am sorry.
> My simple answer to that is not acceptable. I do many things that I do not enjoy for my wife's benefit and I now feel less urgency to make her happy, knowing I am further down the list for her. She says it is not the point, that was then and this is now, but that is the extent of the clarification and I am not going to accept a juvenile answer. I see it that way, regardless of how others may.
> I will be getting her bondage outfits and lube for the holidays this year. A motorcycle for myself and we will see how that goes over.
> I am not going to be made to feel like a chump, the sex acts are negligible but the desire, the lying, the side stepping are not acceptable. We have a good life, sexual and otherwise, but if she has positive sexual memories about certain types of adventurous sex and wishes to keep the memories between her and a former lover, I am not fine with that, and I could really give a sh** what the opinion are of those that want to defend her simply because she is a woman.
> She can choose to wear the outfits, and use the lube and enjoy creating the memories with me, she was so proud of, she shared it with her girlfriend (mind you the sex acts were 22 years ago and she has had her girlfriend for 10 years, you do the math)
> 
> She can do what I tell her or she can leave. I will not be 2nd best, apologetic, or empathetic, unless there is a valid reason that opposes doing these things I now know she liked to do with another man, with me.
> 
> I have never acted this way before with her and she asked why it matters to me, I explained if I held onto memories of a former lover and were talking about that former lover, 10+ years after being married to her, and she found out, I would assume her to want a valid explanation as well.
> 
> Talking time is done for her, time to lube up, or learn to mow the lawn IMO.



I think you need to readback what you wrote and think about it some. 

Let me ask you this. When you were younger, you probably enjoyed TV shows like Sesame Street, or The Banana Splits, The Munsters, or Champion the Wonder Horse, and I bet you enjoyed them. But do you enjoy them now? Perhaps your tastes have changed. 

Perhaps your wife's have too. Perhaps she has read about the dangers and drawbacks of certain 'manouvers' and doesn't want to take silly risks with her health/life.

Perhaps you need to let go of this foolishness (which is clearly eating eating you up) before it does some serious damage to your relationship.


----------



## Theseus

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I guess I just don't understand how you expect this to have a good outcome.
> 
> What is the best possible scenario? That you two will do it, she'll love it again, and you'll burn the house down with hot sex! Great! Unlikely, but great!
> 
> What is MORE likely is that she will hate it, hate you, resent you for demanding/pressuring to do it.



Actually, the most likely outcome is that she will come clean and admit she didn't want to do these things because she "settled" for her husband and isn't that attracted to him.

That might not sound like the best possible scenario, but in some ways it is, because at least he will have the truth about his marriage.


----------



## Theseus

BlackIris said:


> But do you enjoy them now? Perhaps your tastes have changed.
> 
> Perhaps your wife's have too.



I can't speak for the OP, but if that were truly the case, I think he would probably be OK with it. He fears that it's for another reason - either because his wife isn't that attracted to him, or because she just wants to be cruel. I think the former is more likely, but he is probably concerned about either one. I would be too. 



> Perhaps you need to let go of this foolishness (which is clearly eating eating you up) before it does some serious damage to your relationship.


The wife started doing the damage here, so she should take the initiative to repair things, assuming she wants to, of course.


----------



## treyvion

Theseus said:


> Actually, the most likely outcome is that she will come clean and admit she didn't want to do these things because she "settled" for her husband and isn't that attracted to him.
> 
> That might not sound like the best possible scenario, but in some ways it is, because at least he will have the truth about his marriage.



Now who is going to admit that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

Theseus said:


> Actually, the most likely outcome is that she will come clean and admit she didn't want to do these things because she "settled" for her husband and isn't that attracted to him.
> 
> That might not sound like the best possible scenario, but in some ways it is, because at least he will have the truth about his marriage.


But how will he *know* that he has the truth? She might figure that the best way to resolve this is to just tell him what he wants to hear so that they can move on. I know that in the past when I just couldn't please my husband with the truth, I started searching for ways to just get past the conflict. It's the same uncertainty that applies to the case where she suddenly gives and and does the sexual acts with him that she said she no longer wants to do. What is her motivation? Truth and desire, or just giving in to shut him up? Is that question going to be the next hamster on the wheel in his head? Is he going to start to need to know exactly how she felt when "doing it" with the other guy so that he can be assured that she's more into it with him? It's a vicious circle, and there is no jumping off once it's started. Not without therapy. 



Theseus said:


> I can't speak for the OP, but if that were truly the case, I think he would probably be OK with it. He fears that it's for another reason - either because his wife isn't that attracted to him, or because she just wants to be cruel. I think the former is more likely, but he is probably concerned about either one. I would be too.
> 
> The wife started doing the damage here, so she should take the initiative to repair things, assuming she wants to, of course.


I said it before: SHE has all the power here because he is caught up in uncertainty and fear and it's clouding his ability to do what is best for himself and for his marriage. Even if she took the initiative to repair things, is he going to be able to accept her motivations? Will it be enough? He would benefit from IC to work through these issues--they are out of his control to reign in at this point. It's a can o' worms to be sure. I don't think there is anything his wife can do to really put this to rest for him, not matter how sincerely she wants to.


----------



## inarut

At this point she has shown zero compassion. She has been Cold,insensitive and unresponsive. I'm assuming she is somehow clueless to what he is going through.i am giving her the benefit of the doubt because I find it hard to believe she couldn't put herself in his shoes and not understand his feelings even if they are wrong. I agree with you on many points but if the truth is she truly doesn't care to understand or simply doesn't care at all that will become evident even if she tries to fake it. That's why I think its so important for him to communicate effectively and openly so his anger doesn't close her off and throw her into a defensive ,protective stance and then this spins out even if his worst fears are not the truth of the situation.if he really opens up in a non judging or blaming way owning his feelings and she doesn't respond positively in a reaffirming supportive way he will have his answer. If he does that, Even if this particular issue is really a non issue , if she still can't show love, compassion and affirm him then there is something seriously wrong.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Good luck forcing things. She'll either refuse or she'll go along with it, and you think you'll enjoy it but the whole time you'll be thinking about how she's not really enjoying it with you and doesn't want to be there, and she did enjoy it with other men. I can't imagine a more empty experience. Good luck with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

lifeistooshort said:


> Good luck forcing things. She'll either refuse or she'll go along with it, and you think you'll enjoy it but the whole time you'll be thinking about how she's not really enjoying it with you and doesn't want to be there, and she did enjoy it with other men. I can't imagine a more empty experience. Good luck with that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If hes been at a lower rung all these years he wont be losing anything if they have issues. She should be able to understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom

I can imagine that the OP's wife is cussing the bff right about now,what a can of worms she opened up. Damn....:scratchhead:

So ladies, lesson of the day is this, make sure your girlfriend can handle her drink when in front of your husband. This crap can happen to you


----------



## treyvion

techmom said:


> I can imagine that the OP's wife is cussing the bff right about now,what a can of worms she opened up. Damn....:scratchhead:
> 
> So ladies, lesson of the day is this, make sure your girlfriend can handle her drink when in front of your husband. This crap can happen to you


She shouldnt have been potraying the other guys over her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

GettingIt said:


> It's the same uncertainty that applies to the case where she suddenly gives and and does the sexual acts with him that she said she no longer wants to do. What is her motivation?


BTDT. Add to your list: If she did it before and loved it, and now she is doing it with me, what about all the intervening years? Did she have a change of heart recently, or did she want to do it all along but just not with me? Was she maybe doing it with someone else because she was not satisfied with me?

It is an endless rabbit hole. Therapy helps. For everyone involved.


----------



## Cosmos

techmom said:


> I can imagine that the OP's wife is cussing the bff right about now,what a can of worms she opened up. Damn....:scratchhead:
> 
> So ladies, lesson of the day is this, make sure your girlfriend can handle her drink when in front of your husband. This crap can happen to you


Yes, the friend...:scratchhead: I can't imagine discussing my sex life, past or present, with a friend. However, if I did so, I know none of them would be so utterly mindless and insensitive as to revisit the subject within earshot of my SO.

Anyway, it looks like the OP has chosen his course of action, (something along the lines of his W having to do what he says, lube up or learn to mow the grass), so all that remains is to wish him luck with that one - because I can't see this ending well.


----------



## treyvion

Cosmos said:


> Yes, the friend...:scratchhead: I can't imagine discussing my sex life, past or present, with a friend. However, if I did so, I know none of them would be so utterly mindless and insensitive as to revisit the subject within earshot of my SO.
> 
> Anyway, it looks like the OP has chosen his course of action, (something along the lines of his W having to do what he says, lube up or learn to mow the grass), so all that remains is to wish him luck with that one - because I can't see this ending well.


It will end well when poster and his wife break up, that way he no longer needs to be degraded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos

treyvion said:


> It will end well when poster and his wife break up, that way he no longer needs to be degraded.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If that's what he wants, so be it. Personally, I see that as extreme and would suggest the MC route to resolve this issue, but it isn't my otherwise happy 20 year old marriage at stake - and I'm not the OP.


----------



## soccermom2three

Cosmos said:


> If that's what he wants, so be it. Personally, I see that as extreme and would suggest the MC route to resolve this issue, but it isn't my otherwise happy 20 year old marriage at stake - and I'm not the OP.


I agree.

You know, I'm wondering if he's been looking for a reason to end the marriage and now he has one, (not a good one, IMO). This is really a sad thread.


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## lifeistooshort

treyvion said:


> It will end well when poster and his wife break up, that way he no longer needs to be degraded.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If that's the case why doesn't he just end the marriage now? Why essentially throw a tantrum on the way out? Keep your dignity and leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

lifeistooshort said:


> If that's the case why doesn't he just end the marriage now? Why essentially throw a tantrum on the way out? Keep your dignity and leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because he wants answers first. Even if you break up with someone, you don't get closure unless you understand what the problem was. 

You need to look below the surface to understand. *What the OP wants so badly isn't the sex per se, but an explanation why this other guy got the first-class sex while he's been riding in coach*. 

And I don't consider it a "tantrum" to insist on an explanation. As her husband, he deserves that much at least. He asked, she gave a nonsensical answer according to the OP, so now he's pushing the issue in a different way. 

As I mentioned earlier, if his wife does tell him the truth, chances are the answer will be: "_because I was much more attracted to him, and I settled when I married you_". So I can see why the wife would be reluctant to tell him that.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Theseus said:


> Because he wants answers first. Even if you break up with someone, you don't get closure unless you understand what the problem was.
> 
> You need to look below the surface to understand. *What the OP wants so badly isn't the sex per se, but an explanation why this other guy got the first-class sex while he's been riding in coach*.
> 
> And I don't consider it a "tantrum" to insist on an explanation. As her husband, he deserves that much at least. He asked, she gave a nonsensical answer according to the OP, so now he's pushing the issue in a different way.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, if his wife does tell him the truth, chances are the answer will be: "_because I was much more attracted to him, and I settled when I married you_". So I can see why the wife would be reluctant to tell him that.


I can understand the need for an explai explanation, though it really could be just as simple as that was then this is now. Which he won't accept, so there is a risk that if he keeps badgering her she'll say something less than truthful to shut him up. 
I stand by my characterization of his holiday plans to buy and push things she's said she doesn't want as a tantrum, and I don't think he's going to get any closure that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

I wonder if there is another aspect to his hurt. She did those things willingly and enjoyed them. She lied and said she didn't do them. He never did those things if I understand his post correctly. So he gave up forever the idea of doing those things, some of which he at least wanted to try. His fiance offered a lot of positive things to his life and he saw it as an acceptable trade off to give up ever doing those things in order to marry her.

Now he finds out what he gave up is something she liked doing with other people. He made a sacrifice in his life which now he learns he never had to make. He made the sacrifice due to her lies.


----------



## Starstarfish

_ "because I was much more attracted to him, and I settled when I married you"_

So again, women have sex for one reason and one reason only. 
That they only base sexual decisions on raw animal sex appeal. Even though you've got actual women telling you that's not true.

Because actual women aren't a good insight to female sexuality, only male authors and authorities with real "insight." Makes sense to me.


----------



## Thor

I would date again but I cannot see marrying again.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Completely your prerogative to date but not marry, I just hope you're up front with the women you date about this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chillymorn

lifeistooshort said:


> Completely your prerogative to date but not marry, I just hope you're up front with the women you date about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


why apparently half the women would do the same or worse date you but bang someone else on the side.

I guess its true.......all is fair in love and war!!!!!!


----------



## GettingIt_2

bandit.45 said:


> Rubber suits and lube.... Grow the fvck up OP and quit acting like a child. Demand the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, but is the OP emotionally _capable_ of accepting anything as truth at this point? I think THAT is the real issue here. His hurt is so deep, and his faith in his wife is so shaken that anything she tells him will be suspect. How do they go about repairing this as a couple? They both have a fair amount of emotional work that would need to be done to get through this. Maybe when the anger is put aside they will seek professional counseling. I don't see anything less working if they want to have a decent marriage. 

I'm grateful for this thread. I'm guilty of not understanding much about men, and I'm glad to be getting this education now. I know I've said careless things in the past that have probably hurt my husband's ego. I've never done anything like the OP's wife, but still, the fragility of the male ego is not something that lingers in the front of my mind in my dealings with my husband at times. 

Women and men are quite different emotionally, and in their relationship expectations. I didn't consider, for example, how fundamentally important to a man it is that he be top dog to a woman sexually--out of ALL the men she's ever been with. Women, on the other hand, don't simply choose the best lay to marry. There are many other considerations that they find just as or more important. Is that "settling," or is that being prudent in finding a good life match? 

Another thing to for me to be grateful for--I've never had to pretend that my husband wasn't my best ever sexually. We are a horrible match in other ways, though, and those differences have brought our marriage to its knees at times. 
We have often wondered if we'd have been better off marrying someone more compatible personality-wise. I guess most people settle on one point or another when they get married? Or perhaps the knowledge of having settled comes later once issues crop up and the inability to resolve them lays bare the inadequacies? *Shrug* Sometimes over thinking things causes more trouble than it's worth. Imma go bake more Christmas cookies.


----------



## aug

bandit.45 said:


> Thank you Thor.
> 
> This has been an enlightening and entertaining thread.
> 
> The hypocrisy dripping from every nook and cranny of some of the female responses on this thread* only strengthen my resolve to never date or marry again*. No man should allow himself to be a woman's fool and I hope the OP demands his idiot wife provide him with an honest and truthful of why she revealed her sexual escapades to a mouthy GF and not to him after two decades of marriage.
> 
> Rubber suits and lube.... Grow the fvck up OP and quit acting like a child. Demand the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well, that sucks for the few women out there that prefers a man like you.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Cosmos said:


> If that's what he wants, so be it. Personally, I see that as extreme and would suggest the MC route to resolve this issue, but it isn't my otherwise happy 20 year old marriage at stake - and I'm not the OP.


I think there may be a larger context in which these factors exist. Maybe more of a last straw for him.....or close to it. Because I agree with you that these events/concerns in and of themselves don't quite seem to justify going 'nuclear' (divorce).

But he needs to do more than talk with her about his' feelings'. He needs to get tougher with her, somehow. Do something TBD to make her feel that she can be replaced.


----------



## aug

GettingIt said:


> I'm grateful for this thread. I'm guilty of not understanding much about men, and I'm glad to be getting this education now. I know I've said careless things in the past that have probably *hurt my husband's ego*. I've never done anything like the OP's wife, but still, the fragility of the male ego is not something that lingers in the front of my mind in my dealings with my husband at times.



I dont think this is about ego. It should be about knowing your significant other is forthright, consistent and dependable.


----------



## lifeistooshort

chillymorn said:


> why apparently half the women would do the same or worse date you but bang someone else on the side.
> 
> I guess its true.......all is fair in love and war!!!!!!


Yep. I think that if you really think you'd be doing such a big fat favor for your partner to marry them you've either not chosen a good partner or you don't bring as much to the table as you think you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

aug said:


> Well, that sucks for the few women out there that prefers a man like you.


Ha ha, my first thought was what a big loss it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom

I see this marriage going down in flames, the wife will never be able to reassure the OP that he is the best evar. He won't be able to let this die.

One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay. They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.

Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

aug said:


> I dont think this is about ego. It should be about knowing your significant other is forthright, consistent and dependable.


Maybe ego isn't the right word. And although I agree that everyone wants to trust their spouse to be forthright, consistent, and dependable, we all know that people sometimes make mistakes, act unethically, and otherwise are a disappointment somehow. How do we react when we are disappointed and hurt by a spouse? How do we process the hurt and move on? I think there are productive ways to do that, and destructive ways to do that. Sometimes the transgressive spouse is able and willing to help, sometimes not. It doesn't change the fact that the hurt has to be processed, and fair or not, it's up to the hurt party to find a way to do so--alone, if need be. Anything less will cause lingering hurt, damaging current and future relationships. It sucks, but it's reality. 

From what I've learned on many threads here on TAM, men have a more difficult time processing hurt when they discover things about their wife's sexual past that hurts their ego, that makes them feel "settled for," that makes them wonder if their wives ever think about past sexual experiences fondly, etc. In short, they go "nuclear" in a way that often turn women off and replace what might have been sympathy with a "grow up you big baby" attitude. Most women simply don't prioritize sexual history like men do. Which makes it "easier" for us to fudge it, since "it doesn't really matter all that much anyway, so let me just tweak things a bit" or "oh god I don't remember how many men I've been with or what I did with them . . . I'll just summarize." In the meantime, the men are hanging on to every detail, squirreling it away, running complex calculations against it, and deciding how they measure up. 

Look, I'm not at all trying to downplay the importance of honesty--but would the OP be react this way to any and all acts of dishonesty from his wife? What is done is done. Trying to assign sole blame for this situation is futile, because there is more than one valid point of view. Judging the people involved might feel good, but since we don't know these people, their history, their dynamic, how can that be productive? 

Focusing on who is the lower character, calling names, having fun thinking up just punishments, and making declarations that generalize whole genders without any effort to understand real differences only reflects on the character of the poster. I find it selfish, frankly. _Why are people so willing to throw away their dignity with anonymity?_


----------



## jaharthur

techmom said:


> I see this marriage going down in flames, the wife will never be able to reassure the OP that he is the best evar. He won't be able to let this die.
> 
> *One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay. They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.*
> 
> Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Dear, you bore me to tears in bed, but I know you are dependable and will have a great future."

If that's the truth, then I guess I would have trouble handling it.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

techmom said:


> I see this marriage going down in flames, the wife will never be able to reassure the OP that he is the best evar. He won't be able to let this die.
> 
> One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay. They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.
> 
> Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The equivalent of male ego would women's "feelings"
Take care not to bruise our egos and we won't hurt your "feelings."

Actually in both cases a little lying and denying can help. "Is x sexier than me. A: of course not. Gimme a break" is y prettier than me? A: of course not. Are crazy?! "

Not hard. But if either wife or husband is a bona fide plan B......Then that is bound to be a problem. I Think the fiance' should do some good research earlier to assure themselves hey are an A not a B. and put on the brakes if the latter.....


----------



## Starstarfish

That's not what was said, it's that sexual compatibility is only one factor that goes into considering the potential of a long-term relationship. Don't act like men don't know that. How many men freely admit on TAM "Well - she always sucked at sex, but she had a lot of things going for her, so I thought it would change."


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## Starstarfish

I like how in that ego isn't in quotes but feelings are, as if one is real and the other isn't.


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## techmom

JustPuzzled said:


> Quick question, Techmom. Would it have no effect on you if you found out that your husband "settled" for you? That before he met you he had pursued and caught an absolute hotty who eventually dumped him?
> 
> Say that your H gave up smoking and lost 25 pounds while he was seeing said hotty and that he had taken her on a fantastic vacation - a vacation that you have dreamed about but have never had.
> 
> Now say that he marries you and puts the weight back on and starts smoking. Say that he treats you decently and there is nothing exactly bad about your marriage, but you don't do the special fun things that he did for/with the hotty. And now he's chubby.
> 
> Would you not think that you were getting a bit of a raw deal? Would your self-esteem be affected in any way? If by his actions or inactions it was clear that he did not desire you nearly as much as the hotty would your feelings be hurt?
> 
> If you would feel any of that then magnify those feelings by, oh, a hundred times to feel how noguts feels.
> 
> I am not saying that noguts' W necessarily has an obligation to do anything. I am saying that you should take a moment to try to understand how he feels.


I married my husband when I was a 20 year old virgin, and I KNOW that I'm not my husband's best lay. He had lots of fun with different women, had 3 somes, did stuff that I consider over the top. Does this bother me? No. If he started smoking and gaining weight I would have less attraction towards him. That's it. But he is still a good husband and a good provider for my child, so I would stay.

There are many sexless marriages which start off with the hubby gaining weight, and not doing what attracted the wife to him in the first place. Evidently men place way more emphasis on being the best lay than the best provider or father. They would throw away 20 years of marriage because of retroactive jealousy? Because a guy who the wife would have never considered marrying was better in bed? This guy could be lord knows where, probably laying in a ditch somewhere, while the OP has a good home and family. He's willing to switch places with that guy? Seriously?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

techmom said:


> I see this marriage going down in flames, the wife will never be able to reassure the OP that he is the best evar. He won't be able to let this die.
> 
> One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay. They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.
> 
> Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps I look at these things in too simplistic a manner. But surely if either sex in a marriage has 'settled' for someone who is a good provider, good with kids, cooks a mean pot roast or whatever then they are likely doomed to failure.

Where is the incentive to have a fulfilling sex life if your husband/wife is not sexually attracted to you or you are not attracted to them?
Doesn't your SO need to be at least on a par with your other partners? And if not then damn well train them to be!

For me marriage means that not only are you humping somebody who is hot you also get to make love to the person you adore.
All the other stuff about dependability, matureness etc. is just gravy.

If you aren't sexually attracted to your SO then I would suspect that you are looking at a doomed marriage.


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## aug

techmom said:


> One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. *Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay.* They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.
> 
> Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



dependable, mature man... What a turn-off!


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## aug

jaharthur said:


> "Dear, you bore me to tears in bed, but I know you are dependable and will have a great future."
> 
> If that's the truth, then I guess I would have trouble handling it.



True.

I have a hard time thinking a woman gets all sexually excited with a "dependable" man.


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## techmom

Not all women base their marriage choices on who "rocks their world". They may pick a guy who has good enough bedroom skills over a guy who is way better because the first guy may have betterf career prospects and demonstrates more nurturing qualities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LoveLonely

techmom said:


> I see this marriage going down in flames, the wife will never be able to reassure the OP that he is the best evar. He won't be able to let this die.
> 
> One aspect of this whole argument is the idea of "settling" for a man to become your husband when you had better lays in the past. Maybe you did, but those "better lays" may have been irresponsible, immature, etc. Not marriage material. Women looking for marriage material are not necessary looking for their best lay. They are looking for dependable, mature men who have a future. It would be irresponsible and harmful to the future of her children if she chose otherwise.
> 
> Men get their drawers tied in a bunch when they hear this from women. I guesss because it ruins their fantasy of their wife foaming at the mouth in lust for them and only them. I guess you guys on TAM can't handle the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless I missed something, the woman was talking to a friend of hers about how great the past experience was and only got caught because the friend opened her mouth. Forget gender; I can't imagine someone being so disrespectful to their significant other. Further, if the marriage IS overall better, then why hasn't sex also gradually improved over the years.

Not to take away from the disrespect. I don't want to be with ANYONE that discusses such intimate memories with friends. Nor do I want to be with ANYONE that would tolerate such horrible behavior from me. I love and respect my fiance. I would never do anything so horrible. I can't understand someone that would. It makes me sick to my stomach.


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## LoveLonely

techmom said:


> Not all women base their marriage choices on who "rocks their world". They may pick a guy who has good enough bedroom skills over a guy who is way better because the first guy may have betterf career prospects and demonstrates more nurturing qualities.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good sex, like most everything else, can be learned.


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## chillymorn

techmom said:


> Not all women base their marriage choices on who "rocks their world". They may pick a guy who has good enough bedroom skills over a guy who is way better because the first guy may have betterf career prospects and demonstrates more nurturing qualities.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


all too often these are the women who also have an affair. because they are missing something. as we can see from the many who post on this board in the coping section.


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## chillymorn

LoveLonely said:


> Good sex, like most everything else, can be learned.


but the partners has to have the [email protected] to say I ain't satisfied can we work on this and the other partner has to be able to say sure eagerly.


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## LoveLonely

chillymorn said:


> but the partners has to have the [email protected] to say I ain't satisfied can we work on this and the other partner has to be able to say sure eagerly.


And in my opinion, this gets into a significant factor in the original poster's problems. This whole scenario that this poor guy has been put through is a tiny example of something far more wrong in the relationship.

And I am going to say it very bluntly. This goes out to everyone on the planet. Sex is not the most important thing in a long term relationship or marriage, but it is pretty darned important. If two people really love each other, then why the hell ISN'T the sex the best either of you have ever had. I don't care HOW wild someone thinks they were in their past. Years of experience can put that to shame. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. One has to make a conscious effort to improve on things.


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## techmom

This romantic notion of finding your "one and only" to marry is a relatively modern notion. The instition of marriage was not based on that. Marriages used to be arrainged by families and clans, and they made these marriages based on money, genectics, basic compatibility and status. Not sex. 

Now, people are expecting so much of marriage that they forget that marriage was made so that children will have a stable household to be raised in. It is not to fulfill your long lost dreams of romance and excitement. This is why the divorce rate is so high, people enter marriage with these high expectations and they are disappointed years down the line.

The OP in this thread may be disappointed because he felt that his wife was his one and only, his ideal, only to be told that he wasn't hers. We are never another person's best of the best, although we should be told that to assure our egos.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug

In my books, a woman that wants to get married, should do it for the right reasons. She should not have her fun wild sex side when she was only dating and then when she gets married, that doesn't happen anymore and her hubby is of course miserable. That's disgusting!!! She should get married not because he can make more money and buy her more material things. That's being bought out. She should marry him because she finds him physically hot, wants crazy sex with him, they have things in common, love and they both are working, contributing to their goals and life long dreams together. Getting married because some guy can make more money is sick. That's not love and the marriage will more than likely fail. See, we all can get better jobs, make more money and upgrade our educations for earning potential but finding that someone that you find physically hot, wants fun sex with and have many things in common, love, that's much harder to find, than just making more money and buying more things.

My 2 cents on what this is worth.


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## lifeistooshort

jaharthur said:


> "Dear, you bore me to tears in bed, but I know you are dependable and will have a great future."
> 
> If that's the truth, then I guess I would have trouble handling it.



No worse than "dear, you're not quite as attractive a that big boobed bimbo I really wanted but I she was only the type you f$ck, not the type you marry". Or "she wouldn't have me". The point is that to some extent everybody settles based on what they can get, but that doesn't mean they're not really happy with what they got. How many men wouldn't have chosen a Victorias secret model over their wife if they were rich and good looking enough to pull it off? How many men met their wives after a woman they really wanted dumped them? That's life. You have to look at the entire package.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus

Starstarfish said:


> _ "because I was much more attracted to him, and I settled when I married you"_
> 
> 
> 
> So again, women have sex for one reason and one reason only.
> That they only base sexual decisions on raw animal sex appeal. Even though you've got actual women telling you that's not true.
Click to expand...


I never said that "women have sex for one reason and one reason only" so please don't try to put those words in my mouth.

But it can certainly crush a man's spirit to find out his wife "settled" for him. People who think they married for romantic reasons, can't be expected to be happy to find out that instead their spouse saw them as their "security" in life. I certainly wouldn't. Even though I am fairly well off financially now, I was as poor as anything when I married, so my wife certainly didn't marry me for security. It was for love, and love only, and that's one reason we are still together and still have passionate sex after 17 years. 

BTW, this is not just a man's issue. I have read at least a couple of threads from women on TAM who were upset because they believe their husbands "settled" for them as well. The only difference in the responses were that in general, the women on TAM seemed much more sympathetic when the wife had the problem instead of the husband.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Watching the women in here justify OP's wife settling for him, as though she has a right to own him, and waste his life, is absolutely disgusting to watch, really despicable.


----------



## bandit.45

WTF happened to my last post?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Watching the women in here justify OP's wife settling for him, as though she has a right to own him, and waste his life, is absolutely disgusting to watch, really despicable.


We have no idea if she "settled" for him or not. We have no idea if the OP has ever straight asked her, "Why did you marry me?"

And where did the owning him thing come from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Watching the women in here justify OP's wife settling for him, as though she has a right to own him, and waste his life, is absolutely disgusting to watch, really despicable.


The projection in this post is off the chain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three

Starstarfish said:


> We have no idea if she "settled" for him or not. We have no idea if the OP has ever straight asked her, "Why did you marry me?"
> 
> And where did the owning him thing come from?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly and where is it that the OP's wife stated that this guy from 20 years ago was her "best lay"? 

All we know is that she had a boyfriend 20 years, did certain sex acts with him and enjoyed them. As far as we know, her "best lay" could be the OP. Some posters are assuming she settled but maybe she actually married him because she loves him. Sex with someone you are in love with can be your "best lay".


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## Anon Pink

techmom said:


> Not all women base their marriage choices on who "rocks their world". They may pick a guy who has good enough bedroom skills over a guy who is way better because the first guy may have betterf career prospects and demonstrates more nurturing qualities.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now what if you reverse this? Your man marries you not because you rock his world but because you're a great cook, very nurturing, and have wide hips to birth several babies safely. How does this make you feel? Like he bought the help?

Sheeshe! Who on earth would want that for their marriage, man or woman?


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## techmom

Like I stated in a previous post, my hubby did have women who rocked his world better than me. He married me because I was a virgin and of course I had no prior experience. He wanted to "train" me, however I am who I am. I don't give a hoot as to how he views me, I have a happy life and I love my career. My existence does not rely on my hubby's #1 or #2. I am obviously #1 because he chose to marry me, making a life long commitment to someone should matter more than what is being shown in this thread by the OP and others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Anon Pink said:


> Now what if you reverse this? Your man marries you not because you rock his world but because you're a great cook, very nurturing, and have wide hips to birth several babies safely. How does this make you feel? Like he bought the help?
> 
> Sheeshe! Who on earth would want that for their marriage, man or woman?



Or because the one that really rocks his world can't be taken home to mother. That never happens....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom

lifeistooshort said:


> Or because the one that really rocks his world can't be taken home to mother. That never happens....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The one you have fun with and the one you can take home to mother sometimes is not the same person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Ngng.

How about a nice list? What specific acts besides a threesome do you want? Btw i would classify a threesome differently than other acts. Her reason for no threesome can be as simple as her seeing you inside another woman would destroy her.

Now lets say she used to like anal, or risky, or bjs or pictures or... Different game entirely. More onboard with this.


----------



## lifeistooshort

techmom said:


> The one you have fun with and the one you can take home to mother sometimes is not the same person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely true. I was just wondering if our female egos are allowed to be bruised by this, because clearly male egos are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

lifeistooshort said:


> Or because the one that really rocks his world can't be taken home to mother. That never happens....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suppose it does, but I should think much less often now a days. But in either case, isn't that a sad state of a marriage? I ask again, who would choose to be mrs. Good enough?


----------



## Theseus

soccermom2three said:


> Exactly and where is it that the OP's wife stated that this guy from 20 years ago was her "best lay"?
> 
> All we know is that she had a boyfriend 20 years, did certain sex acts with him and enjoyed them.


No, that's not all we know. We also know she was still fondly reminiscing them 20 years later to her friend, so if he wasn't her "best lay", he must have at least been pretty close to the top of the list. 



> _As far as we know, her "best lay" could be the OP. _


Anything is possible, but I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where my "best lay" is someone that I refuse to play out my wild fantasies with.


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## Anon Pink

techmom said:


> Like I stated in a previous post, my hubby did have women who rocked his world better than me. He married me because I was a virgin and of course I had no prior experience. He wanted to "train" me, however I am who I am. I don't give a hoot as to how he views me, I have a happy life and I love my career. My existence does not rely on my hubby's #1 or #2. I am obviously #1 because he chose to marry me, making a life long commitment to someone should matter more than what is being shown in this thread by the OP and others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He wanted to train you? That doesn't sound much like a compliment, nor that he was attracted to who you were, but the possibility of who you might become. Boy you sure did prove him wrong eh?


----------



## Anon Pink

lifeistooshort said:


> Absolutely true. I was just wondering if our female egos are allowed to be bruised by this, because clearly male egos are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. Female egos are allowed to not only be bruised but crushed. 

If you knew your husband had more fun and better sex with another woman...that wouldn't make you feel like dirt?


----------



## john117

paging Ana Steele... paging Ana Steele. Miss Steele, please pick up the gray courtesy phone :rofl:

Training assumes the person is trainable. I was able to train my wife on things intimate about as much as she was able to train me on calculus...

Ultimately I was a better teacher than she was...


----------



## techmom

Anon Pink said:


> Yes. Female egos are allowed to not only be bruised but crushed.
> 
> If you knew your husband had more fun and better sex with another woman...that wouldn't make you feel like dirt?


My ego is not crushed because I don't base my self esteem on how good I am in the sack with my hubby. I have so many other things to base my self esteem on...


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Starstarfish said:


> I like how in that ego isn't in quotes but feelings are, as if one is real and the other isn't.


You're too sensitive. Stylistic....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

techmom said:


> Not all women base their marriage choices on who "rocks their world". They may pick a guy who has good enough bedroom skills over a guy who is way better because the first guy may have betterf career prospects and demonstrates more nurturing qualities.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I might be agreeing with this. Bedroom skills easily learned and easily improvable with practice. Like driving a car, looks scary and you start out way behind more experienced drivers, then you catch up easily.

Though if she's marrying someone she's only marginally attracted to, that can turn out to be a real problem. How many women (%) get that?


----------



## Oldfaithful

I don't even know how to relate to someone who lies to their spouse so blatantly. So I don't know what to say. 
I just don't care if it's a man or a woman. 
You don't lie about that crap. Or you just say the past is in the past and leave it at that.


----------



## Anon Pink

techmom said:


> My ego is not crushed because I don't base my self esteem on how good I am in the sack with my hubby. I have so many other things to base my self esteem on...


I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I also think you're missing a little bit of the point. There is also the fact that sex isn't important to you so the fact that your husband might have memories of some women who were enthusiastically great in bed and rocked his world, doesn't cross your mind.

But I just don't but that your ego wouldn't be crushed if he admitted he has fond memories of other women who were better in bed than you. Spend some time considering it, or maybe don't, because it will end up hurting you.


----------



## techmom

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I also think you're missing a little bit of the point. There is also the fact that sex isn't important to you so the fact that your husband might have memories of some women who were enthusiastically great in bed and rocked his world, doesn't cross your mind.
> 
> But I just don't but that your ego wouldn't be crushed if he admitted he has fond memories of other women who were better in bed than you. Spend some time considering it, or maybe don't, because it will end up hurting you.


To be honest, sex is not that important to me in comparison with everything else I have. I have the house, kids, family and his support. All the other ladies have are fond memories, I am with him in the present. You are missing the point of what I'm saying, for me the most important things are financial security, stable household and being able to raise children well. We have sex, and I don't need all of the extra swinging off of chandeliers stuff, I just like my sex simple and uncomplicated.

I don't need 3somes, bondage and all of that jazz. My hubby is satisfied too, if not he would have left by now. He feels secure in this relationship too. I don't really consider what he had back when he was single and if they were better than me, I have the present. Maybe sex is important to you so you get uptight about it, but I just don't.


----------



## techmom

I always wondered why people get bent out of shape about things that happened in the past, this thread showed me that it is really important for some people to know that they are #1 in their spouses life. I feel that I am #1 in my hubby's life because he chose me to marry over the others. I feel that marriage solidifies relationships, kinky sex acts don't because you can do them with a hooker. Do you solidify relationships with hookers when you do wild kinky sex with them? No you don't. 

So what is the point of getting bent out of shape about something that means very little in the grand scheme of things?:scratchhead:


----------



## aug

Anon Pink said:


> I suppose it does, but I should think much less often now a days. But in either case, isn't that a sad state of a marriage? I ask again, who would choose to be mrs. Good enough?


apparently techmom


----------



## Thor

techmom said:


> To be honest, sex is not that important to me in comparison with everything else I have. I have the house, kids, family and his support. All the other ladies have are fond memories, I am with him in the present. You are missing the point of what I'm saying, for me the most important things are financial security, stable household and being able to raise children well. We have sex, and I don't need all of the extra swinging off of chandeliers stuff, I just like my sex simple and uncomplicated.
> 
> I don't need 3somes, bondage and all of that jazz. My hubby is satisfied too, if not he would have left by now. He feels secure in this relationship too. I don't really consider what he had back when he was single and if they were better than me, I have the present. Maybe sex is important to you so you get uptight about it, but I just don't.


Perhaps your husband's priorities and values are the same as yours. I'm not going to trash you or your values.

But let's look at the case where a man wants a close emotional bond with his wife. During courtship she says the right things and leads him to believe he is personally important to her. He is led to believe she loves him romantically, and she wants to be with him.

Then years down the road he finds out it was lies. What she really wanted was what you described. He feels deceived into becoming her mule. It turns out she selected him because she thought she could get money from him, and he would be a good father to her children.

Now he knows she didn't love him romantically. It wasn't him she wanted to be with, rather she wanted what he could do for her. And, she didn't give her best to him in bed because she lied her way out of having to do it.


----------



## aug

Thor said:


> Perhaps your husband's priorities and values are the same as yours. I'm not going to trash you or your values.
> 
> But let's look at the case where a man wants a close emotional bond with his wife. During courtship she says the right things and leads him to believe he is personally important to her. He is led to believe she loves him romantically, and she wants to be with him.
> 
> Then years down the road he finds out it was lies. What she really wanted was what you described. He feels deceived into becoming her mule. It turns out she selected him because she thought she could get money from him, and he would be a good father to her children.
> 
> Now he knows she didn't love him romantically. It wasn't him she wanted to be with, rather she wanted what he could do for her. And, she didn't give her best to him in bed because she lied her way out of having to do it.



And she may have had several affairs along the way...


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

A similar story from reddit:

Snapshots RedditLog

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy *****.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their *****. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid **** to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea. To add t

>Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

>Her: Why are we talking about this?

>Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

>Her: are you taking drugs?

>Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

>She starts crying.

>Me: Do you have anything to say?

>She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

>Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

>She: I didn’t want you to think I was a ****

>Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you.* Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their ****s but not mine*.

>She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

>Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. *It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
*
>She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

>Me: *I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.*

>She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

>Me: *Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. *Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

>She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

>Me: Stop ****ing acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you **** before me. How many guys ****s have you sucked, and how many guys have you let **** you in the ass.

>She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

>Me: I am so ****ing lucky. I got married to a *****, that ****s like a prude.

>She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

>Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic *and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.*

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so ****ing drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so ****ing hurt over this.

*As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest*.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, *my confidence as a man has been destroyed*.* Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their *****” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”
*
*I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them.* Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really ****ty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit - I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn't want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

And the update
[Update] Found my wife's old sex tape. Now our marriage is on the rocks if you have any advice please share. : relationship_advice

I read all of your responses. I have to say a couple things please actually read my post, not read what you think it says. In no way did I say I feel entitled to sex nor do I care about her past. I am upset about the deception. Please stop wasting my time. I thought long and hard about this, and although we have our issues, I am willing to work past them.

I still think she is a great mother and life partner, for those reasons I will try to work things out with her. I decided that the best course of action would be to pursue an open marriage agreement, *so that way I don’t have to have her drudge through sex with me that she likely doesn’t enjoy. *And if she wants someone she can share her wild sex with she can do that as well, and I can find someone who fulfills me sexually as well.

*I am not believing a lot of the things she is saying and rightfully so. She has lied for 7 years, so now she will be judged on her actions not her words.* Some of you guys mentioned that it there might be infidelity on her part.

So I ended up calling her, I told her I want to work things out. I ended up coming back home for a bit. Summary of our conversation, these aren’t quotes we talked for hours so here you go.

Me: My trust in you has been shaken. And I am doubting if you were faithful to me throughout our marriage for that reason I want to get a DNA test for our daughter.

Wife: I swear I didn’t sleep with anyone else, I am sorry about lying but I didn’t sleep with anyone.

Me: Than why does it matter, I just want it for a peace of mind, I deserve that much.

Wife: That’s fine

Me: I don’t want another child, at least not now. If our marriage gets better, maybe in a couple of years we can reconsider.

Wife starts crying for a while. Our original goal was to have three kids, but I don’t want to bring any more kids until we have a stable household. Eventually she stops crying, after I start to walk out.

Wife agrees to the condition.

Me: I understand you have a wild past, and I don’t want you to have to do things with me that you don’t want. Although, you say you want to do them now, you will always harbor resentment. *You didn’t want to do it for 7 years I understand that. *I would ask you why you felt that way, I am curious as to why you don’t want to do those things with me. But, no matter what you tell me I don’t believe what you say.

Wife: I swear it’s not because of you I didn’t want you to think I was a ****. I want to do those things with you.

Me:* I tried for 7years, trying out a new position wouldn’t have made you ****tier.* Look you obviously have your reasons, but even if you do want to do them in the back of my head I will always think you are doing it of guilt. No matter what “that type of sex” will always be tainted with you. So for that reason I don’t want to try anything new with you sexually. *You didn’t want to do it for 7 years, all this video showed me you liked doing those things in the past with other people.*

Wife: I still want to do them, we can work it out. I swear I want it, how can I prove it to you.

Me: that thought will always linger, look let’s just ignore it. I would rather open up our marriage. You can sleep with other people I can sleep with other people. We can set ground rules, but I don’t want me or you to have to be sexually repressed anymore.

Wife: I don’t want to sleep with anyone other than you, and I don’t want you to sleep with other women. I can give you anything you can get with those women.

Me: Well I do want to sleep with other women, *and it’s not just the specific act but the fact they want to do it. Sex means a lot more to me than the sensation. To me it makes me feel desirable, it’s a validation of love*. Look you can say what you want whether you like doing something or not. If you don’t like giving blow jobs that’s fine but the fact you’d put up getting double teamed for two random smucks but won’t do that for your own husband hurts me. It’s one thing you didn’t do it for anyone but that’s not the case. I would like to know your reasoning but even if you tell me the truth I’ll think you are lying.* I want that validation, since I haven’t gotten that from you. I will get it from other people.*

Wife: I am not going to go through with this, this is going to ruin our marriage. I don’t want you to sleep with anyone why can’t we try working on our marriage.

Me: look I’ll give you a couple days to decide if you want to go through with it. If you don’t that’s fine. I wouldn’t mind giving up on our marriage either.

Wife: I want to save our marriage, but this is not okay with me.

Me: those are my conditions, if you don’t want to follow through with them then let me know. I really want to divorce, but this is the only arrangement I see it working. I am going back, let me know if you are okay with my requests. If you want to go to counseling you can I am not wasting any money on that.

So that’s that. I don’t know if opening up our marriage is the right course of action, but to me it’s just about the only thing I consider.

Things my wife told me: (I don’t know how true they are)

I learned my wife was promiscuous, in high school, and in college. But after she moved to a new city, she wanted to put it all behind her. There was no trauma involved, never was raped, assaulted, coerced. She just thought guys looking to marry wanted a “lady in the bed.” She wasn’t aware she had the video, supposedly it was from when she was moving from college and it got lost. She wasn’t ever planning on telling me about her past it was a secret she was going to take to her grave.

I told you guys how I feel, if you have any ideas on how to fix our marriage, please share. I told you how I feel about sex, and what it means to me. I don’t want you to tell me, that I am wrong for having those feelings. Besides divorce/open marriage do you have any suggestions? And don’t tell me marriage counseling, it’s a waste of money, if you haven’t been there before than please don’t recommend me. I told my wife if she wants to go for individual counseling she is welcome to but I won’t be joining her.

Please share. I am not going to be guilted and shamed for my desires. If she finds my demands unreasonable she has the option to reject them. She is a grown woman herself.

Please actually read my post before post.

It's over. I talked to her on the phone

*We tried to have a sincere talk about her feelings. I tried my best to understand where she was coming from, but at the end of it I didn't believe a word she said. I couldn't.*_(because her words are completely incongruous with her acions, or lack thereof)_

*I told her I can't. Trust and intimacy are broken, the more I think, the more it creeps into my mind. I can't be with someone where I second guess myself, *looking for other women for validation won't work. I don't want to torture her for her past either.

I learned what a good bit from this relationship and I will take that with me to the women I meet in the future. If I meet a girl and she doesn't satisfy me sexually I am not going to wait for her to open up, or overlook it. I realized over the years of being married to my wife how much suppressing my desires got to me and how it made me an angry person.

Regarding divorce, I am going to talk to my brother in person soon, I have asked him to come over. I don't want this to be a blown out family ordeal, but I could at least use his support.

Wife has a skin condition that my insurance has been covering. I am not going to try to deprive her of that, and hopefully I can make arrangements so she can continue getting treatment after we separate. I will use this as a bargaining chip in divorce arrangements, if she won't grant me joint custody, or won't do a fair split of assets.

Wife still wants to make things work, I told her I am drained. I still love her, *but I don't think she loves me and for that reason I can't stay. Intimacy to me is an expression of love and she gave it to other people but was reserved with me.* You might have a different view but that's how I see it.

I have already made moves financially, I am going to start communicating with her through emails so I have a solid log of all our interactions.

Update

Wife has constantly been calling, her mother called me recently and told me I need to meet with her before she hurts herself. I don't know what to do I tried calling her she is panting crying, and sounds self destructive at this point. I want to take our daughter from that environment, I don't know what to do at this point.


----------



## chillymorn

wow,

if your done your done. be true to yourself. If you know you really can't get past her deception then divorce.

I think you want an equitable distribution of assets. not fair there is a difference.

this is a perfect example of why you shouldn't lie to your husband/wife. 

to anybody that posted that it was acceptable to lie about anything to the person you love. For me anyways if you lie to them you don't really love them to love them you have to trust that they love you all of you even your past. mistakes and achievements alike!

will some men who hear about a colorful past get scared off and be gone. yes along with some women.


----------



## aug

Here's another update:

[Update II]Found my wife's old sex tape. Now our marriage is on the rocks if you have any advice please share. : sex

tldr: they are back together trying to work it out.


----------



## Anon Pink

Oh come on! That exact scenario was posted here in SIM three times in the last year. Urban legend!


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

aug said:


> Here's another update:
> 
> [Update II]Found my wife's old sex tape. Now our marriage is on the rocks if you have any advice please share. : sex
> 
> tldr: they are back together *trying* to work it out.












So she robotically opened the faucet, and let him drink until his thirst was slaked, then reined him back in, what a disappointing ending.

He seemed to be perceptive enough to not be able to delude himself for too long, the doubts will eat at him, and will corrode away the insta-fill condidence her instant and "magical" rediscovery of her libido has reinjected into him, she can't fake it forever, like holding a small weight with your arm outstretched, it gets heavier, and heavier, and heavier, and heavier, and heavier, til you drop it.

His FIRST PERCEPTIONS were accurate, and sadly, spot on. She simply wasn't into him sexually. Her inner sexual being was reserved for "other" types of men. But she felt she had the RIGHT to a Husband, so she lied to get one, and wasted 7 years of his life, when he could have found a woman that actually DID want him.


----------



## BradWesley

Anon Pink said:


> Oh come on! That exact scenario was posted here in SIM three times in the last year. Urban legend!


But, but, it's on the internet, so it must be true!


----------



## CouldItBeSo

How does giving bj and having anal sex equate to being slvt and *****?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chillymorn

CouldItBeSo said:


> How does giving bj and having anal sex equate to being slvt and *****?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if you do to everyone but then refuse your husband once your married= $lut/wh0re


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Theseus said:


> Actually, the most likely outcome is that she will come clean and admit she didn't want to do these things because she "settled" for her husband and isn't that attracted to him.


I'm not arguing that "settling" is not a VERY REAL possibility (one of many possibilities), but unless she is a real dumb-azz, ADMITTING this OUT LOUD is not the MOST likely outcome. It isn't even a LIKELY outcome. 

Surely she is not so stupid but to recognize which side her bread is buttered on! (Meaning: telling her H that he is just someone she 'settled' for and that she doesn't find him sexually appealing would be cutting her own throat socially, sexually, financially. She'd have to be pretty desperate/dumb to do this.) I do agree with you, Theseus, that it's possible that this is what actually happened.


----------



## Starstarfish

> told her that based on our beliefs, the only thing I had to marry her to get is sex.


So, men can post "I only married you for sex" but a woman admitting she may have chosen a husband based partly or primarily on a thought of future financial security is "disgusting." 

Neither of those is "I married you for love" or "we have things in common" but the first is more acceptable, but the second isn't ... why? In the end, you are marrying because of what you want the other person to do for you. 

Apparently that means for everyone who recommends "His Needs/Her Needs" what they mean is - read the "His Needs" half of the book, and ignore the rest. 



> But she felt she had the RIGHT to a Husband, so she lied to get one, and wasted 7 years of his life, when he could have found a woman that actually DID want him.


In your example, the guy freely admitted she was a prude before they got married, and magically expected her to change. That's as much on him as on her. He indeed wasn't forced into marrying her. He could have said no. Him discovering or not discovering this video doesn't change that fact. He married her anyways, regardless, -for other reasons- and at the time the sex was a secondary issue, but later it became -the issue.-


----------



## Deejo

Can we rein this mother in a bit and remain relatively focused on the circumstances of the original poster?

If anyone else is upset that their husband married them to get laid, or their wife married them for a house and cash ... you may not have noticed, but we have an entire forum to which you can post your story, circumstances, or air your grievances, where other participants can respond, and hi-jack your thread too.

Thanks and have a great day.


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## weightlifter

What is wrong with at least saying, " wife i understand you felt the need to be mrs prim and proper. The truth is i need you to be my wanton wh0re., begging me to xxxxx and yyyyyy and moan. I want to see your lust for me in your eyes. I get it you wanted me to believe the good girl. I need you to be that in front of my friends then when doors are closed... MY personal loving BAD girl, begging me for my load in20 creative different ways." 

I would take three ways off the table. Imho that one is different not a desire for you thing, it is she loves you and would be literally crushed by seeing you inside another woman. The boyfriend she probably did not love as she does you and could go that route.


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## john117

Anon, there have been instances mentioned here where a wife will not do sexual things later in marriage what she did - and enjoyed - earlier on in the very same marriage or prior with the very same partner... 

Typically as a precursor to LD-land...


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## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Anon, there have been instances mentioned here where a wife will not do sexual things later in marriage what she did - and enjoyed - earlier on in the very same marriage or prior with the very same partner...
> 
> Typically as a precursor to LD-land...


Or typical that the marriage itself has grown stale and the relationship needs work.


----------



## bandit.45

Anon Pink said:


> I do not buy the story of the prude wife with a gang bang sex tape in the attic! Besides, that was Linda Lovelace's story from the 70's. Only her gang bang sex tapes were national porn hits because everyone has seen or heard of Deep Throat, and not the whistle blower from Nixon's watergate scandal.
> 
> But we diverge from the original point in the original thread... Which is...
> 
> Wife gives decent sex, but excludes 3somes, bondage, and anal. Husband let it go until wife's girlfriend insists that wife not only did these things but ENJOYED them. So now husband feels distraught, abused, taken for granted, second best....
> 
> I do not believe that she ENJOYED these things in the past. If she did enjoy them in the past, it makes no sense that she wouldn't enjoy them with the guy she married. If their sex life is decent in all other aspects, explorative, fun, orgasmic...it makes NO SENSE that she would not want to add something she enjoyed in the past, even if she isn't sexually attracted to her husband.


Oh contrare...

Mahike's fWW had nasty pornstar sex with her OM after years of giving Mahike discount vanilla portions. 

Even after getting busted and admitting to being a slvt for her OM she still couldn't get past her fvcked up hangups about what a wife should and shouldn't do for her husband sexually. I haven't heard how that all panned out but if you PMd Mahike he would probably say it hasn't improved much. His WW is really messed up. 

I'm a true believer in the Reverse Madonna Wh0re Syndrome, and I believe a lot of women have ruined their marriages because of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CuddleBug

Anon Pink said:


> Or typical that the marriage itself has grown stale and the relationship needs work.



Agreed.:smthumbup:

He or she could of just got comfy and aren't really LD. Spice it up, total surprises, change things, no asking, just do it.

Being married for 20 years, that's fantastic. Another reason for LD, menopause starting to kick in.

Doing the 5 love languages quiz and comparing results will also help because each spouse will know what the main need is for each other.

I guess for us guys, its simpler. We see a hot woman, SEX. For the ladies, it takes more than that? Romance, intimacy, foreplay and not just SEX. 

What I don't understand, is why get married and then let the sex life slide to LD ville? Why get married in the first place then? Makes no sense to get married and make the other spouse suffer....


----------



## wilderness

bandit.45 said:


> Oh contrare...
> 
> Mahike's fWW had nasty pornstar sex with her OM after years of giving Mahike discount vanilla portions.
> 
> Even after getting busted and admitting to being a slvt for her OM she still couldn't get past her fvcked up hangups about what a wife should and shouldn't do for her husband sexually. I haven't heard how that all panned out but if you PMd Mahike he would probably say it hasn't improved much. His WW is really messed up.
> 
> I'm a true believer in the Reverse Madonna Wh0re Syndrome, and I believe a lot of women have ruined their marriages because of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I experienced that 'reverse madonna ho syndrome once. It's def real. But I will say this- my take on this 'syndrome' is that it's borne of love. Meaning, the woman truly loves the man and that is what causes the fear.


----------



## Theseus

Anon Pink said:


> I do not believe that she ENJOYED these things in the past. If she did enjoy them in the past, it makes no sense that she wouldn't enjoy them with the guy she married.


This is where you and I disagree. If she didn't really enjoy them in the past, then why would she be reminiscing about them now with her friend 20 years later? She would be trying to forget about them, not sharing them with her friend and describing how great it was.


----------



## WyshIknew

Theseus said:


> This is where you and I disagree. If she didn't really enjoy them in the past, then why would she be reminiscing about them now with her friend 20 years later? She would be trying to forget about them, not sharing them with her friend and describing how great it was.


I think in some ways this is the crux of the matter.

If she had said to the friend "I did X,Y,Z with some other guys but was emotionally blackmailed, persuaded against my better judgement", whatever. Then you can understand her reticence regarding doing the same acts with hubby.

But, reportedly, she bragged about how much she enjoyed it to her friend.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I am the best that my wife has ever had but I would like to think I'm up there with the best.

As far as I know we have done everything together that she did with others and a few extra as well.

It might sound strange to some of the ladies here but I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## CuddleBug

WyshIknew said:


> I think in some ways this is the crux of the matter.
> 
> If she had said to the friend "I did X,Y,Z with some other guys but was emotionally blackmailed, persuaded against my better judgement", whatever. Then you can understand her reticence regarding doing the same acts with hubby.
> 
> *But, reportedly, she bragged about how much she enjoyed it to her friend.*
> 
> I'm not arrogant enough to think I am the best that my wife has ever had but I would like to think I'm up there with the best.
> 
> As far as I know we have done everything together that she did with others and a few extra as well.
> 
> It might sound strange to some of the ladies here but I wouldn't have it any other way.



That tells me she married him for the wrong reasons. If she truly loved him, she would rock his world with all her sexual experiences she has and some new ones....:scratchhead:

That's like me telling my wifee, I gave my ex gf crazy anal sex and she loved it. Then it turns out my wifee wants and loves anal sex but I don't want it with her......I would never do that in a million years. I would use my sexual experiences to rock her world because she is my wifee and I love her.


----------



## Cosmos

WyshIknew said:


> I think in some ways this is the crux of the matter.
> 
> If she had said to the friend "I did X,Y,Z with some other guys but was emotionally blackmailed, persuaded against my better judgement", whatever. Then you can understand her reticence regarding doing the same acts with hubby.
> 
> But, reportedly, she bragged about how much she enjoyed it to her friend.


This is the thing, though, Wysh. We have absolutely no idea what the OP heard his W saying to her friend... For sure she _shouldn't _have been discussing it all, but we don't really know that she even said those words "... _and I enjoyed it._"

We do know that until now the OP has enjoyed a 20 year happy, normal sex life with his W, and it doesn't make sense that in those circumstances a W wouldn't want to do something she'd previously enjoyed so much.

If it doesn't make sense, IMO, it often isn't true.


----------



## Coffee Amore

I also wonder what the friend's motives are.


----------



## aug

Cosmos said:


> This is the thing, though, Wysh. We have absolutely no idea what the OP heard his W saying to her friend... For sure she _shouldn't _have been discussing it all, but we don't really know that she even said those words "... _and I enjoyed it._"
> 
> *We do know that until now the OP has enjoyed a 20 year happy, normal sex life with his W*, and it doesn't make sense that in those circumstances a W wouldn't want to do something she'd previously enjoyed so much.
> 
> If it doesn't make sense, IMO, it often isn't true.



No, I disagree. OP asked and his wife rejected.


----------



## WyshIknew

Cosmos said:


> This is the thing, though, Wysh. We have absolutely no idea what the OP heard his W saying to her friend... For sure she _shouldn't _have been discussing it all, but we don't really know that she even said those words "... _and I enjoyed it._"
> 
> We do know that until now the OP has enjoyed a 20 year happy, normal sex life with his W, and it doesn't make sense that in those circumstances a W wouldn't want to do something she'd previously enjoyed so much.
> 
> If it doesn't make sense, IMO, it often isn't true.



But OP did say that she had said that she enjoyed 'it' but just didn't feel the need to do 'it' with hubby.

I get that people change, a woman/man at, say, 40 is not the same person they were at 18/19 but you would expect, as you say, that something so basic as a bit of nookie would be enjoyed just as much at 40 as at 18 (physical limitations notwithstanding)


Or do you think something else is going on here......


Check back in later, going to curl up and watch a film now.

Interesting thread!






nogutsnoglory said:


> yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.


----------



## Cosmos

Cosmos said:


> This is the thing, though, Wysh. We have absolutely no idea what the OP heard his W saying to her friend... For sure she _shouldn't _have been discussing it all, but we don't really know that she even said those words "... _and I enjoyed it._"
> 
> We do know that until now the OP has enjoyed a 20 year happy, normal sex life with his W, and it doesn't make sense that in those circumstances a W wouldn't want to do something she'd previously enjoyed so much.
> 
> If it doesn't make sense, IMO, it often isn't true.





aug said:


> No, I disagree. OP asked and his wife rejected.


Did the OP actually_ tell _us that during the past 20 years he asked her to do XY or Z and she refused? I can't remember reading that. I do know that he told us that he'd asked her 22 years ago if she had done these things and she said she hadn't...


----------



## Cosmos

nogutsnoglory said:


> yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.





WyshIknew said:


> But OP did say that she had said that she enjoyed 'it' but just didn't feel the need to do 'it' with hubby.
> 
> I get that people change, a woman/man at, say, 40 is not the same person they were at 18/19 but you would expect, as you say, that something so basic as a bit of nookie would be enjoyed just as much at 40 as at 18 (physical limitations notwithstanding)
> 
> 
> Or do you think something else is going on here......
> 
> 
> Check back in later, going to curl up and watch a film now.
> 
> Interesting thread!


Wysh, I would still like to know _exactly _what she said, because it could well be that the above is a construction the OP has (in his state of shock) put on something that didn't have _quite_ the same meaning.

For example: Some years ago, just after my father's death, I remember having a phone conversation with one of my sisters. My sister mentioned how our father had "never been a real father to us" (which was a bit of an understatement), and I replied "No he wasn't... But I feel nothing,_ now_..." I then received a highly vitriolic missive from another sister giving me hell for saying _I'd never felt anything for my father,_ which _wasn't_ what I'd meant at all. I'd simply meant that it had always felt painful to feel unloved and unwanted by our father, but that I felt nothing (the pain of rejection), _now._

I do think that the OP and his W need to talk this out with a MC, because something just isn't adding up.

My personal guess is that the OP's wife experimented with these things as a teenager but, when asked by the OP (some 22 years ago!), denied having done so out of an immature sense or guilt/shame... It's also _possible_ that she hadn't enjoyed them at all, and lied so that she wouldn't be asked to repeat them with the OP. We just don't know...

As a woman, I find the conversation the OP overhead with the friend very odd, because in my own personal experience mature women rarely have such indepth conversations about their sex lives. Some perhaps, but it has never been my experience.


----------



## Thor

Theseus said:


> This is where you and I disagree. If she didn't really enjoy them in the past, then why would she be reminiscing about them now with her friend 20 years later? She would be trying to forget about them, not sharing them with her friend and describing how great it was.


I think I want more specificity on what W really said.

As an example, in college me and my buddies did some dangerous stuff. Going through toll booths at 50 mph with a back seat passenger tossing the coin in the basket. Hey, it was a lot of fun especially for the guy tossing the coin if he'd had a beer or two. Yes it was a crazy time for a young indestructible 19 yr old.

But now I am horrified at what we did! I would not recount the story to someone today as still thinking of it as a fun time.

The story could be told two ways, though. It might come across as I miss those times and wish I could have done more stuff like that through the decades. Or it might come across as we thought it was fun at the time but I am glad I figured out to stop doing those things.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I hate to admit it but so much of what I did in my youth sexually was all about checking boxes. I can't say I hated any of it, but I didn't bring all of it into my relationship with my wife. It was all about exploration, having fun, and figuring out what I was comfortable with. With that said though if she really wanted to do any of those things I'd try them with her with one exception. It has to be something that the two of us can do. No third parties. If the OP's wife is denying him a threesome I have no issue with that. I have zero desire to do that again too. I don't know, maybe I did it wrong, but it wasn't one of my favorite experiences. Plus, as far as sex is concerned my wife belongs to me and nobody else.


----------



## Cosmos

Thor said:


> I think I want more specificity on what W really said.
> 
> As an example, in college me and my buddies did some dangerous stuff. Going through toll booths at 50 mph with a back seat passenger tossing the coin in the basket. Hey, it was a lot of fun especially for the guy tossing the coin if he'd had a beer or two. Yes it was a crazy time for a young indestructible 19 yr old.
> 
> But now I am horrified at what we did! I would not recount the story to someone today as still thinking of it as a fun time.
> 
> The story could be told two ways, though. It might come across as I miss those times and wish I could have done more stuff like that through the decades. Or it might come across as we thought it was fun at the time but I am glad I figured out to stop doing those things.


:iagree:


----------



## Anon Pink

bandit.45 said:


> Oh contrare...
> 
> Mahike's fWW had nasty pornstar sex with her OM after years of giving Mahike discount vanilla portions.
> 
> Even after getting busted and admitting to being a slvt for her OM she still couldn't get past her fvcked up hangups about what a wife should and shouldn't do for her husband sexually. I haven't heard how that all panned out but if you PMd Mahike he would probably say it hasn't improved much. His WW is really messed up.
> 
> I'm a true believer in the Reverse Madonna Wh0re Syndrome, and I believe a lot of women have ruined their marriages because of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The scenario you describe doesn't really parallel with OP because his wife is accused of having ENJOYED kinky sex with previous lovers, not current other men. Secondly, if the wife feels the need to present herself as the wife Madonna, then by definition, that doesn't sound like fun explorative sex...does it?

I also believe women have a hard time reconciling being a good wife and mother with sex goddess. It is what society expects them to do, and what their men expect of them too.

If you want a freak in the bedroom, don't marry a virgin!


----------



## WyshIknew

Cosmos said:


> Wysh, I would still like to know _exactly _what she said, because it could well be that the above is a construction the OP has (in his state of shock) put on something that didn't have _quite_ the same meaning.
> 
> For example: Some years ago, just after my father's death, I remember having a phone conversation with one of my sisters. My sister mentioned how our father had "never been a real father to us" (which was a bit of an understatement), and I replied "No he wasn't... But I feel nothing,_ now_..." I then received a highly vitriolic missive from another sister giving me hell for saying _I'd never felt anything for my father,_ which _wasn't_ what I'd meant at all. I'd simply meant that it had always felt painful to feel unloved and unwanted by our father, but that I felt nothing (the pain of rejection), _now._
> 
> I do think that the OP and his W need to talk this out with a MC, because something just isn't adding up.
> 
> My personal guess is that the OP's wife experimented with these things as a teenager but, when asked by the OP (some 22 years ago!), denied having done so out of an immature sense or guilt/shame... It's also _possible_ that she hadn't enjoyed them at all, and lied so that she wouldn't be asked to repeat them with the OP. We just don't know...
> 
> As a woman, I find the conversation the OP overhead with the friend very odd, because in my own personal experience mature women rarely have such indepth conversations about their sex lives. Some perhaps, but it has never been my experience.


Perhaps we need more input from the OP _after_ he has had a long clear the air talk with his wife to find out where they both stand on this.

Unfortunately it is the nature of these things that we get the story in dribs and drabs.

For people to make a good shot at advice maybe OP has to try and get the answers to your and other peoples questions.

I asked my wife about the conversation with friends thing and she said when she was very young she would have a giggle about some bloke or other, "He was too big, too small, 5 pump chump etc. but never got into specifics. So her experience could mirror yours.


----------



## 12345Person

I'm rooting for the OP.


----------



## CuddleBug

I would also like to hear some responses from the OP.:scratchhead:


----------



## pink_lady

I don't know if anyone brought this up yet but since as I understand it the wife's FRIEND is the one who told the OP about her past- it's possible the wife lied to the friend about enjoying those prior acts.

Women do sometimes exaggerate about sexual prowess, enjoyment, experience etc. to each other. Everybody has to be as wild as the characters on Sex and the City. Or did I miss something and the wife then confirmed directly to the OP when questioned that she did in fact enjoy these acts with other people?

I'd also like to know why the friend would suddenly decide to tell the OP something like this.


----------



## 12345Person

I think we should just accept that his wife ****ed him over, and leave it at that.

I'm rooting for him, because that's how I am.


----------



## bandit.45

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39145-one-more-thing-i-do-not-understand.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/59449-some-trouble-during-r.html


----------



## lowcal

There are countless posts in TAM in which men had more fun and wilder sex with past lovers, and even now have fond memories of those more attractive lovers and talk about the sexual details, yet married the woman that is less enjoyable in bed but more stable, and better as a wife.
Why is it fine for men to do this but when a woman marry the stable guy she is a evil woman hurting the ego of her husband?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/87553-your-so-your-best-ever.html


----------



## 12345Person

pink_lady said:


> I don't know if anyone brought this up yet but since as I understand it the wife's FRIEND is the one who told the OP about her past- it's possible the wife lied to the friend about enjoying those prior acts.
> 
> Women do sometimes exaggerate about sexual prowess, enjoyment, experience etc. to each other. Everybody has to be as wild as the characters on Sex and the City. Or did I miss something and the wife then confirmed directly to the OP when questioned that she did in fact enjoy these acts with other people?
> 
> I'd also like to know why the friend would suddenly decide to tell the OP something like this.


The wife said she enjoyed them, and since she lied about it for 20 years...

You get the point


----------



## techmom

Anonymous Person said:


> The wife said she enjoyed them, and since she lied about it for 20 years...
> 
> You get the point


As interpreted by the OP, through the lenses of insecurity and retroactive jealousy. I like to look at both sides of the story 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

techmom said:


> As interpreted by the OP, through the lenses of insecurity and retroactive jealousy. I like to look at both sides of the story
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Too bad that wasn't provided for us to look at, eh? So I guess the only version we have is the one made up by our own lenses.


----------



## treyvion

Cletus said:


> Too bad that wasn't provided for us to look at, eh? So I guess the only version we have is the one made up by our own lenses.


I dont think the situation was right, even if it was a woman with the same complaint.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

It's entirely possible that the friend had no idea what she said was wrong or anything. She may not have known the husband was out of the loop, and it is likely that she figured it the wife was that open about things with her, there wasn't any problem. I have a feeling this is not the first conversation of this type the wife has had with friends.

A few months after we started dating, a male friend from high school of my STBW tragically died. He left behind a mother, a wife, a couple of children, and...a brother. Seeing the mother and wife so upset upset her as well and it hit home what losing a child or a spouse must feel like. She went to the funeral with a friend of hers as I had to work, but we went out that night to see a local band, sort of as a distraction. She drank quite a lot. The more she drank, the more emotional she got about how awful it would be to lose a child, and how awful it would be for his kids.

On the way home, she began talking about the conversation she had with her friend. Her friend had never had a past lover die, and had slept with this guy back in high school. My STBW has had a past lover die, so was helping her friend with that. This guy was also one of the few partners they had both had in common, as was his brother. As their conversation progressed, they compared the two, and both agreed the living brother was better in bed, and was also bigger than me. Fortunately, while my size is as average as they come, I don't have any hangups at all about being bigger or anything like that. I just wish there had been a mute button for her that night.

The next morning, she didn't remember much past the band starting to play. We had some errands to run which were a pretty long drive away, so once we got underway, I brought up the night before. She didn't remember any of what she said. She confirmed what I relayed to her about the conversation she had with her friend, but was absolutely mortified at what she had done. She has not drank to excess since that night.

I did ask the questions that since she does have sexual conversations with her friends, what does she say about me, how does she portray me, how do they think I stack up. She said she usually doesn't have those types of conversations and that her friend was the one who brought it up because of the conflicting emotions around losing a past sexual partner. She also said that the things she has said however would not lead anyone to think anything other than I am far and away the best lover she's ever had. 

From different bits and pieces I have heard and noticed from her friends, I have no doubt they know that I am her best lover. One of the best was the night she hosted a sex toy party for one of her friends. While it was a coed party, once I learned I was going to be the only guy there, I decided to head out for the night. My STBW texted me when things were winding down to let me know it was safe to come home. When I got back, there were still a few women there, and were under the impression that my hands and mouth are way better than any sex toy out there.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Cletus said:


> Too bad that wasn't provided for us to look at, eh? So I guess the only version we have is the one made up by our own lenses.



Men and women CAN learn to look through the lens of the other, but it takes a fair amount of willingness to let go of what you've come to believe is unalienable in life and love. 

My husband and I have had several very enlightening and useful conversations on this topic since this thread began. After one such talk on Saturday, we watched a movie together. It was The Late Quartet, with Christopher Walken and Philp Seymour Hoffman. It was an excellent, mulit-layered movie and very much themed around issues that arise in long term relationships. Discussing the movie vis-a-vis the oppositions apparent in this thread was fascinating and educational for both of us. I think we both felt satisfied that we'd communicated something crucial to the other without conceding that we'd changed the way we feel emotionally about the issues. MUTUALLY FEELING UNDERSTOOD AND RESPECTED AND ACCEPTED by a spouse who does not share your feelings (and who might even find them problematic) is a worthy goal to pursue. It needs to be pursued with intention, however. It does not usually "just happen."


----------



## aug

pink_lady said:


> I don't know if anyone brought this up yet but since as I understand it the wife's FRIEND is the one who told the OP about her past- it's possible the wife lied to the friend about enjoying those prior acts.
> 
> Women do sometimes exaggerate about sexual prowess, enjoyment, experience etc. to each other. Everybody has to be as wild as the characters on Sex and the City. Or did I miss something and the wife then confirmed directly to the OP when questioned that she did in fact enjoy these acts with other people?
> 
> I'd also like to know why the friend would suddenly decide to tell the OP something like this.


OP's wife confirmed her past.


----------



## treyvion

chillymorn said:


> if you do to everyone but then refuse your husband once your married= $lut/wh0re


It's not even right...


----------



## [email protected]&confused

OP, I have experienced same situation with my wife.

Not sure about you, but it doesn't feel like my wife understands what truly bothers me. to me, there are several issues.

First, she lied. she has admitted to 'creating' an innocent, naïve version of herself so I would "want" her. To me that is a big victimization. If you can't take responsibility for actions YOU chose to do, then CHOOSE not to do them. But if you chose to do these things, then have the integrity to take ownership of them. Maybe I would have still chose her, maybe I wouldn’t have but at least the relationship would have been built on honesty and trust. I feel manipulated.

And, I completely understand how you feel slighted. "Am I not desirable enough to bring out those passions in you?"

So, how do you trust going forward? How do you trust she's not still hiding more? My wife has started being more sexually open with me. But it still sucks because she didn’t originally choose to be that way with me…. I can’t say that to her, at least not without the consequence of losing everything we've built thus far. But, it still bothers me. 

This is a tight wire brother so be careful…. And good luck!


----------



## LoveLonely

[email protected]&confused said:


> OP, I have experienced same situation with my wife.
> 
> Not sure about you, but it doesn't feel like my wife understands what truly bothers me. to me, there are several issues.
> 
> First, she lied. she has admitted to 'creating' an innocent, naïve version of herself so I would "want" her. To me that is a big victimization. If you can't take responsibility for actions YOU chose to do, then CHOOSE not to do them. But if you chose to do these things, then have the integrity to take ownership of them. Maybe I would have still chose her, maybe I wouldn’t have but at least the relationship would have been built on honesty and trust. I feel manipulated.
> 
> And, I completely understand how you feel slighted. "Am I not desirable enough to bring out those passions in you?"
> 
> So, how do you trust going forward? How do you trust she's not still hiding more? My wife has started being more sexually open with me. But it still sucks because she didn’t originally choose to be that way with me…. I can’t say that to her, at least not without the consequence of losing everything we've built thus far. But, it still bothers me.
> 
> This is a tight wire brother so be careful…. And good luck!


You know, if your wife is really trying, keep at it bro. This to me sounds like the next logical step with the past poster. It sounds like you guys have a way to go but are on the right track. For whatever reason, people feel vulnerable. They don't even know what they are doing. It sounds like she is dipping her toes in the water. Now, let her know the water is okay so that someday, you will be in the middle of an ocean, put BOTH your past sex lives to shame. "Because she wanted you to want her." I am not dismissing the actions, but it sounds like she has learned or is learning from past mistakes. You meant enough for her to feel like she had to do things to be "attractive." Of COURSE it was messed up thinking but at least it was for the right reasons. Hang in there.


----------



## Knobbers

Faithful Wife said:


> Look - here's my stance...if I was the wife here and my husband felt so horrible about this, I would apologize profusely for lying and I would attend to his hurt feelings.
> 
> But what else can she do?


She can start by doing what you said you would do, which it doesn't seem she has even attempted an apology whatsoever. 

I have no clue why you have given the op such a hard time in this thread, all he wanted was a "legit" reason for the lies. Followed by a reason for her not wanting to do these things with him.

I agree somewhat with your premise of her not having to give him detailed reasoning for why she doesn't want to do these things with him, but you have blatantly ignored the fact that he is hurt most by her lying. Poor guy probably feels like he has been living a sham all this time, and that his precious wife might have lied about other things as well.

Maybe its my fragile male ego, that some don't seem to get, but a lie over 20 years would be an incredible kick in the nads. To the person calling him a *****, get a life. Would love to see some of these tough guys face to face and see them call another man that. I know how my fragile ego would respond, and he could go tell his mommy that a ***** took a big swing at him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Knobbers...I am not ignoring that he is hurt by her lying...I'm just saying there is nothing any other person (here) can tell him that will make any difference to that pain he is having. None of us can give him the "reason" that he is hoping to hear...the one that will take his hurt away.

The OP actually has not detailed what his wife has said or done, so how do we know she hasn't tried to help him with his hurt feelings?

And if she didn't...then shame on her, and she should.

But since this husband is apparently going to demand certain sexual favors or she can GET OUT...I'm not sure why she should care about his hurt feelings. He plans to take it out in blood anyway so....I guess he assumes that revenge (in the form of forced sexual activity) will be his sweet reward.

I hope he has good luck with that, but I'm pretty sure it will land him in divorce court.


----------



## treyvion

Knobbers said:


> She can start by doing what you said you would do, which it doesn't seem she has even attempted an apology whatsoever.
> 
> I have no clue why you have given the op such a hard time in this thread, all he wanted was a "legit" reason for the lies. Followed by a reason for her not wanting to do these things with him.
> 
> I agree somewhat with your premise of her not having to give him detailed reasoning for why she doesn't want to do these things with him, but you have blatantly ignored the fact that he is hurt most by her lying. Poor guy probably feels like he has been living a sham all this time, and that his precious wife might have lied about other things as well.
> 
> Maybe its my fragile male ego, that some don't seem to get, but a lie over 20 years would be an incredible kick in the nads. To the person calling him a *****, get a life. Would love to see some of these tough guys face to face and see them call another man that. I know how my fragile ego would respond, and he could go tell his mommy that a ***** took a big swing at him.


She pretty much said he isnt worthy, those sexual acts are not for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 12345Person

An update?


----------



## techmom

Faithful Wife said:


> Knobbers...I am not ignoring that he is hurt by her lying...I'm just saying there is nothing any other person (here) can tell him that will make any difference to that pain he is having. None of us can give him the "reason" that he is hoping to hear...the one that will take his hurt away.
> 
> The OP actually has not detailed what his wife has said or done, so how do we know she hasn't tried to help him with his hurt feelings?
> 
> And if she didn't...then shame on her, and she should.
> 
> But since this husband is apparently going to demand certain sexual favors or she can GET OUT...I'm not sure why she should care about his hurt feelings. He plans to take it out in blood anyway so....I guess he assumes that revenge (in the form of forced sexual activity) will be his sweet reward.
> 
> I hope he has good luck with that, but I'm pretty sure it will land him in divorce court.


We have to also remember that the wife chose to omit this information, for a reason. That reason was deemed as not a good enough reason by the OP. The wife may feel that the past was the past and she probably shared this with the friend in confidence. Not everything you share with a friend is what you want to share with your spouse. The friend was irresponsible here. If this situation goes the way I think it is, the friend is going to be responsible for a divorce.

All of the pushing for the same sex acts is not going to end well. If it is done it will not be out of desire, it will be done like Athol Kay's "hate you with her p*ssy" mindset. I don't think this is what the OP wants. He wants it done with genuine desire.

He does not want the truth insomuch that he wants something to stop his mind movies. The truth won't do that. It seems that one person's truth is another person's incoherent blathering. After all of this time we didn't hear from him, once we do I doubt it would be good news from the front.


----------



## Knobbers

Faithful Wife said:


> Knobbers...I am not ignoring that he is hurt by her lying...I'm just saying there is nothing any other person (here) can tell him that will make any difference to that pain he is having. None of us can give him the "reason" that he is hoping to hear...the one that will take his hurt away.
> 
> The OP actually has not detailed what his wife has said or done, so how do we know she hasn't tried to help him with his hurt feelings?
> 
> And if she didn't...then shame on her, and she should.
> 
> But since this husband is apparently going to demand certain sexual favors or she can GET OUT...I'm not sure why she should care about his hurt feelings. He plans to take it out in blood anyway so....I guess he assumes that revenge (in the form of forced sexual activity) will be his sweet reward.
> 
> I hope he has good luck with that, but I'm pretty sure it will land him in divorce court.



Thank you for replying with class FW. 

I appreciate you explaining what you are thinking in more detail, as I'm a little slower than the average snail. I find myself in more agreement with you.

I actually wish I would have waited to post that message, as the op came back shortly after and laid down the law a bit. I didn't see his priorities in the same way after, and feel maybe the sex acts do play more of a role than I care to admit. The lying is what would really bother me, and I assumed that's what had him so up in arms.

Until I read the quote of the year, about lube and lawn mowing. :rofl:

Thanks again and happy holidays to you and yours!!


----------



## Knobbers

treyvion said:


> She pretty much said he isnt worthy, those sexual acts are not for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is one way to take it for sure. I'm more upset about the lie. Its one thing to have a DADT policy, but I got the impression she straight up lied.

I don't totally agree, yet, that she feels he isn't worth it. I'm hoping its a case of feelings changing over time, like others have pointed out. In saying that, if my wife loved an act with somebody else, I would certainly feel a bit less confident if she didn't want to try it with me.

Thanks for the reply!


----------



## bandit.45

Well if she doesn't feel he's worthy, why have any kind of sex with him at all?

Nah.... if I were OP, and this was truly the way his wife felt, then I would very nicely ask her for as amicable a divorce as possible. No man wants to be tied to a woman who does not desire him at least as equally as her past lovers.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MyTurn said:


> The facts , as OP said, are:
> he asked before M
> she said no (lied)
> OP found out by her BF (it slipped)
> he confronted her , she admitted threesome ,bdsm,anal etc.
> she also admitted she liked it
> OP askes to do some of the above and is denied without a reason
> OP forgives for the lies
> OP feels hurt and sexualy less attractive
> 
> Isn't it obvious that OP has been cheated , deceived and betrayed?


Being lied to sucks. Also, I am one of those people who would want to know my lover's past because I want to know what I'm getting myself into plus want to get an idea for what kind of intimacy I should expect. But where the OP failed was being content with NOT getting anal, BDSM or threesomes and marrying her anyways. If it was a big deal to him back then, he should have broke it off with her because she was too plain. 

I only read up to post 130, so I'm likely repeating this response from someone else.


----------



## norajane

bandit.45 said:


> Well if she doesn't feel he's worthy, why have any kind of sex with him at all?
> 
> Nah.... if I were OP, and this was truly the way his wife felt, then I would very nicely ask her for as amicable a divorce as possible. No man wants to be tied to a woman who does not desire him at least as equally as her past lovers.


She may not see choosing or not choosing certain sex acts as a commentary on his worthiness. OP may see it as a commentary on worthiness, which is why he's eating himself alive from the inside out about this, but that's his interpretation and not necessarily how she sees it.

She chose to marry him and have sex with him for the past 22 years of their marriage and forever. She might say that's the biggest sign of attraction to and desire for her husband. OP himself even said they were experimental together and she was an active participant in their sex life. 

Just because OP discovered she used to like certain other sex acts in the distant past, doesn't negate the 22 years of good sex and desire and attraction and love they've shared. Seems foolish to dump a good marriage because of anal, bondage and threesomes.


----------



## samyeagar

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Being lied to sucks. Also, I am one of those people who would *want to know my lover's past because I want to know what I'm getting myself into plus want to get an idea for what kind of intimacy I should expect*. But where the OP failed was being content with NOT getting anal, BDSM or threesomes and marrying her anyways. If it was a big deal to him back then, he should have broke it off with her because she was too plain.
> 
> I only read up to post 130, so I'm likely repeating this response from someone else.


And that is where some of the posters here are taking an issue. They say you should not hold any expectations or get any idea based on their past.

The OP's issue begins with the fact that for years, he thought, and was OK with not getting those things because he was under the impression that his then girlfriend, and now wife was not into it, didn't want to do it, and had not done it. He made the choice to sacrifice that part of what he wanted in favor of all the other good qualities he saw in her, and before anyone says shame on the OP, we all play that value game to one degree or another. We all play the sum game determining if the good outweighs the bad.

Then he finds out that his wife still reminisced about enjoying those very things with other men.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

techmom said:


> We have to also remember that the wife chose to omit this information, for a reason. That reason was deemed as not a good enough reason by the OP. The wife may feel that the past was the past and she probably shared this with the friend in confidence. Not everything you share with a friend is what you want to share with your spouse. The friend was irresponsible here. If this situation goes the way I think it is, the friend is going to be responsible for a divorce.
> 
> All of the pushing for the same sex acts is not going to end well. If it is done it will not be out of desire, it will be done like Athol Kay's "hate you with her p*ssy" mindset. I don't think this is what the OP wants. He wants it done with genuine desire.
> 
> He does not want the truth insomuch that he wants something to stop his mind movies. The truth won't do that. It seems that one person's truth is another person's incoherent blathering. After all of this time we didn't hear from him, once we do I doubt it would be good news from the front.


At this point I can't provide further comment on the issue the OP has, because though he has posted several times in his thread he somehow has not managed to give anyone a clear picture of what he is dealing with.

But as for the many diverging discussions on related topics, this post again raises the question of what real intimacy is. For me it DOES mean sharing everything about oneself, past triumphs and mistakes, future hopes and fears and all the rest. And past sexual behavior IS important information to share.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

samyeagar said:


> And that is where some of the posters here are taking an issue. They say you should not hold any expectations or get any idea based on their past.
> 
> The OP's issue begins with the fact that for years, he thought, and was OK with not getting those things because he was under the impression that his then girlfriend, and now wife was not into it, didn't want to do it, and had not done it. He made the choice to sacrifice that part of what he wanted in favor of all the other good qualities he saw in her, and before anyone says shame on the OP, we all play that value game to one degree or another. We all play the sum game determining if the good outweighs the bad.
> 
> *Then he finds out that his wife still reminisced about enjoying those very things with other men.*


Bear with me a little since I'm late to the game and I still have many pages to read within this thread. 

Regarding the pasts, I know there are at least two schools of thought on it. I choose to believe that open and honest communication up front is the best way to approach it. I do want to know if I'm dating a woman that has slept with 5, 50 or 500 guys as well as get an idea of how she views intimacy. You can't get a good handle on that without talking about pasts and asking about your values. If the OP's wife would have acknowledged up front that she engaged in other activities in the past but no longer wants to engage in the practice now, both would be better off today. He could decide if he could accept her terms or not and she could have made the choices based on his terms too. 

But if the statement that the wife is reminiscing fondly about engaging in these acts but refuses to engage in them with her husband, then that's pretty harsh from her end. I can get taking the threesome off the table, but if she's walking down memory lane with her GF's today telling them how her ass aches to be penetrated by her former lover(s) and she tells her hubby that it's "off the table", you bet that she and I would be having a big discussion to resolve it once and for all so that both of us are satisfied.


----------



## chillymorn

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Bear with me a little since I'm late to the game and I still have many pages to read within this thread.
> 
> Regarding the pasts, I know there are at least two schools of thought on it. I choose to believe that open and honest communication up front is the best way to approach it. I do want to know if I'm dating a woman that has slept with 5, 50 or 500 guys as well as get an idea of how she views intimacy. You can't get a good handle on that without talking about pasts and asking about your values. If the OP's wife would have acknowledged up front that she engaged in other activities in the past but no longer wants to engage in the practice now, both would be better off today. He could decide if he could accept her terms or not and she could have made the choices based on his terms too.
> 
> But if the statement that the wife is reminiscing fondly about engaging in these acts but refuses to engage in them with her husband, then that's pretty harsh from her end. I can get taking the threesome off the table, but if she's walking down memory lane with her GF's today telling them how her ass aches to be penetrated by her former lover(s) and she tells her hubby that it's "off the table", you bet that she and I would be having a big discussion to resolve it once and for all so that both of us are satisfied.


the problem as I see it is......if she isn't doing what you like sexually and you find out that she did them in the past then theres your answer. shes just not that into you! you can discuss all you want but the bottom line is she should want to be a good lover for her husband and if she has an indifferent attitude about it then shes just a *****,after your stability and not really desirous of you. once that cats out of the bag I don't think you can stuff it back in.


----------



## OpenEnded

I entered exit ramp doing 65 and almost wrecked under dry conditions. I'm not doing this again.


----------



## treyvion

chillymorn said:


> the problem as I see it is......if she isn't doing what you like sexually and you find out that she did them in the past then theres your answer. shes just not that into you! you can discuss all you want but the bottom line is she should want to be a good lover for her husband and if she has an indifferent attitude about it then shes just a *****,after your stability and not really desirous of you. once that cats out of the bag I don't think you can stuff it back in.


What are you saying "once that cats out of the bag"? Once you realize that's what it is, you cant take those feelings away?


----------



## WillinTampa

For me that would be grounds for divorce.

As soon as she told me that I'm not good enough to get what she gave to some slob , I'd go from love to hate in a stone cold heartbeat

.


----------



## treyvion

WillinTampa said:


> For me that would be grounds for divorce.
> 
> As soon as she told me that I'm not good enough to get what she gave to some slob , I'd go from love to hate in a stone cold heartbeat
> 
> .


One slob or multiple?


----------



## that_girl

Hate isn't the opposite of Love.

Hate is just Love masked in pain and anger.

So...you would want to be indifferent.

Honestly, I get the topic. People need to learn discretion. To tell your spouse all the things you did with someone and haven't done with your spouse is cruel.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Hate isn't the opposite of Love.
> 
> Hate is just Love masked in pain and anger.
> 
> So...you would want to be indifferent.
> 
> Honestly, I get the topic. People need to learn discretion. To tell your spouse all the things you did with someone and haven't done with your spouse is cruel.


You can hate someone you don't love. What if it was Hannibal Lector or Gacy?

You don't hate them because you loved them, you hate and detest their character and actions.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

treyvion said:


> You can hate someone you don't love. What if it was Hannibal Lector or Gacy?
> 
> You don't hate them because you loved them, you hate and detest their character and actions.


You really have an emotion that rises to the level of active hate for Gacy or Lector? Really? I think that indifference would describe my emotion for them perfectly. I NEVER give them any thought at all, unless someone mentions them. They're not important enough to spend any mental energy on at all.


----------



## that_girl

Actually, I don't hate them. I can dislike their actions and be thankful I'm not them...if I think of them, that is.

But to really invoke HATE, you have had to have some connection to the person. Hating your spouse after they cheat on you is because you are hurt and angry. So the Love is masked.

But you don't have to believe me. No skin off my back.


----------



## that_girl

And I love Hannibal Lector. lol. Yea, I'm weird.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Actually, I don't hate them. I can dislike their actions and be thankful I'm not them...if I think of them, that is.
> 
> But to really invoke HATE, you have had to have some connection to the person. Hating your spouse after they cheat on you is because you are hurt and angry. So the Love is masked.
> 
> But you don't have to believe me. No skin off my back.


I couldn't be indifferent to them because it means I do not care. I have daughters and sons and would have active powerful emotions against any known child molestor or rapist. I would not love that person as a human especially if it is a choice they made time and time again.


----------



## Thor

that_girl said:


> Honestly, I get the topic. People need to learn discretion. To tell your spouse all the things you did with someone and haven't done with your spouse is cruel.


I think it all depends on why you did it in the past and why you don't want to do it with your spouse. If the answer is "the other guy was hot, but I don't really find you sexy enough to want to do that with", well then there is a huge problem.


----------



## that_girl

Ok, well, in terms of hating your wife or husband, it's because you once loved them.

I'm not going to argue about all the things you can hate without loving them first. But honestly, I have never felt any hate EXCEPT when going through some crap with my husband. I despised the man and could have ripped his face off with my hands.

I don't like some things but it's never invoked that kind of emotion. Not even child molesters, etc...unless they hurt my children, then the hate would come out...because my trust in humanity has been shot.

I was just talking about spouses or mates when they say, I HATE HIM/HER! i just know they are in pain because of something that betrayed their Love.


----------



## that_girl

Thor said:


> I think it all depends on why you did it in the past and why you don't want to do it with your spouse. If the answer is "the other guy was hot, but I don't really find you sexy enough to want to do that with", well then there is a huge problem.


Sexually? Yea, I haven't held anything back in my marriage. Went farther than ever.

My big things are, "Oh you went on a plane with that woman but we've never been on a vacation?" "Oh you sent random flowers to girls before me and I've never received any?"

Those types of things.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Sexually? Yea, I haven't held anything back in my marriage. Went farther than ever.
> 
> My big things are, "Oh you went on a plane with that woman but we've never been on a vacation?" "Oh you sent random flowers to girls before me and I've never received any?"
> 
> Those types of things.


That would be a BIG problem, and those are little things.

Imagine if he refuses to kiss you on the mouth or do oral, but he did it with most others. His internal reason for refusing to do it for you is, because he feels you are nasty and not on his level.


----------



## chillymorn

treyvion said:


> What are you saying "once that cats out of the bag"? Once you realize that's what it is, you cant take those feelings away?


yes,

how do you wrap your mind around the thought that your wife dosen't want to please you sexually? being indifferent to your needs....is a real bonner killer.


----------



## samyeagar

Even something as simple as eyes glued, mouth open, staring at some strippers on tv, yet looking around you when you are getting undressed, at a commercial on tv...knowing you have never held their attention quite like that...


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> Even something as simple as eyes glued, mouth open, staring at some strippers on tv, yet looking around you when you are getting undressed, at a commercial on tv...knowing you have never held their attention quite like that...


They may even look away...

Even if you are a well built man, she can look away or detest you for looking good naked. Feed you bad attention...


----------



## that_girl

treyvion said:


> That would be a BIG problem, and those are little things.
> 
> Imagine if he refuses to kiss you on the mouth or do oral, but he did it with most others. His internal reason for refusing to do it for you is, because he feels you are nasty and not on his level.


I would have known this before marriage, yes?

My older daughter's father didn't do oral. Ever. Said it wasn't something he'd do. He barely kissed me. We never married. lol. 

SO I would suspect that I'd know if he was into oral and kissing before marriage. If he suddenly stopped that would signal another issue or a bait and switch.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> I would have known this before marriage, yes?


Yes you would know this.




that_girl said:


> My older daughter's father didn't do oral. Ever. Said it wasn't something he'd do. He barely kissed me. We never married. lol.


Smart woman.



that_girl said:


> SO I would suspect that I'd know if he was into oral and kissing before marriage. If he suddenly stopped that would signal another issue or a bait and switch.


Yep.


----------



## Noble1

I know this is an older thread, but just wanted to comment anyway as there were a few posts from various people that gave me a few triggers.

BTW, I did read every post. Wow there are some strong feelings on this one from both (all) sides and there may not be a 'right' answer to all this.

I can certainly see how the OP would get extremely frustrated and hurt by what happened.

For me, given the information, I just took what he said at face value.

Its like he asked his (at the time) soon to be wife if she was into cake. She said no I'm not into cake at all, never have, never will.

Even though the OP wanted (possibly) cake from the soon to be wife, he was ready to give up cake in order to get everything else she has to offer - we'll say cookies.

So over the years he enjoys the cookies from basic chocolate chip to maybe even white chocolate macadamia nut with maple drizzle. Its not cake but its pretty darn good.

Now, out of the blue, for some reason or another he finds out that his wife was/is into cake. Not only that, she was/is apparently a certified pastry chef that even specialized in cakes.

So, now that he knows, he asks for some cake for himself and bam - no cake for you!!

Now for me this is a WTF!!!

The wife apparently liked and enjoyed cake 22 years ago and despite what was said, she enjoyed it so much she is telling "new" friends about the cake from 22 years ago.

All this 'talk' and still no cake. For me I would actually think well, if you like/liked cake but don't eat cake with me but still tell all your friends about it - are you eating cake in secret?

With no real reason for not giving me cake. well - WTF!! (Now I assume that no real reason was provided as it was not really pointed out in the thread what the reason was)

I understand I'm not really providing anything new here. As I said I just felt the need to comment due to some triggering from posts in this thread.


----------



## treyvion

Noble1 said:


> I know this is an older thread, but just wanted to comment anyway as there were a few posts from various people that gave me a few triggers.
> 
> BTW, I did read every post. Wow there are some strong feelings on this one from both (all) sides and there may not be a 'right' answer to all this.
> 
> I can certainly see how the OP would get extremely frustrated and hurt by what happened.
> 
> For me, given the information, I just took what he said at face value.
> 
> Its like he asked his (at the time) soon to be wife if she was into cake. She said no I'm not into cake at all, never have, never will.
> 
> Even though the OP wanted (possibly) cake from the soon to be wife, he was ready to give up cake in order to get everything else she has to offer - we'll say cookies.
> 
> So over the years he enjoys the cookies from basic chocolate chip to maybe even white chocolate macadamia nut with maple drizzle. Its not cake but its pretty darn good.
> 
> Now, out of the blue, for some reason or another he finds out that his wife was/is into cake. Not only that, she was/is apparently a certified pastry chef that even specialized in cakes.


Well, whatdoyouknow?



Noble1 said:


> So, now that he knows, he asks for some cake for himself and bam - no cake for you!!
> 
> Now for me this is a WTF!!!


This response usually gets called an over reaction.



Noble1 said:


> The wife apparently liked and enjoyed cake 22 years ago and despite what was said, she enjoyed it so much she is telling "new" friends about the cake from 22 years ago.


She still likes it, it's just not for you.



Noble1 said:


> All this 'talk' and still no cake. For me I would actually think well, if you like/liked cake but don't eat cake with me but still tell all your friends about it - are you eating cake in secret?


Probably. For someone who likes cake so much, they would see no reason to give it up.



Noble1 said:


> With no real reason for not giving me cake. well - WTF!! (Now I assume that no real reason was provided as it was not really pointed out in the thread what the reason was)
> 
> I understand I'm not really providing anything new here. As I said I just felt the need to comment due to some triggering from posts in this thread.


Well, you know this... We have different levels of friends, some you would do some things and others you would not.

Your wife determined that your qualification, or your friend level or a desire to eat cake with you is not nearly as strong as it is with someone from her past or others, so she chooses to participate in people in that activity who suit her.

It's just not you.


----------



## chillymorn

she wants her cake and eat it too just not with you!!!!!!!


Its a classic double standard, just like women who want oral but don't give. Just like women who read romance novels but hate that guys like porn etc,etc,etc


----------



## ScarletBegonias

chillymorn said:


> she wants her cake and eat it too just not with you!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Its a classic double standard, just like women who want oral but don't give. Just like women who read romance novels but hate that guys like porn etc,etc,etc


yay I don't have classic double standards!! Woohoo!!! 
Score 1-Scarlet.


----------



## chillymorn

ScarletBegonias said:


> yay I don't have classic double standards!! Woohoo!!!
> Score 1-Scarlet.


score 1000 scarlet!!!!!!!!!!!:smthumbup:


----------



## homedepot

I didn't read whole thread but if you aren't going to do it with hubby, then don't ever mention it. My ego is to damn enormous not to things better than the last.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

homedepot said:


> I didn't read whole thread but if you aren't going to do it with hubby, then don't ever mention it. My ego is to damn enormous not to things better than the last.


If you aren't going to do it with the H but you enjoyed it a lot in your pre-marriage days, then there is something wrong. As a H I would be very upset about this. I could not help but think that my wife has reserved part of herself for the kind of fantasy sexual life that she does not find and does not want to find in me.

This would cause me to seriously reconsider my marriage.


----------



## WyshIknew

Ah this thread again.

This topic has come up from time to time and I never really know what to think.

On the one hand I can understand that someone could be hurt by this but on the other hand there are numerous other aspects to consider.

"You did it for other men but not for me." This assumes that everything she did with others, you want, you are entitled to it.

Do you get to pick and choose? A good, happy marriage is more than you just choosing where and how you stick your d1ck in her.

If you are entitled to do what she did with others is she entitled to expect you to do what others did with her too?

What if she enjoyed MMMF? What if she enjoyed scat play or golden showers? What if she was a Furry? What if she enjoyed pegging  If you have a _*right*_ to do what she did with others, does she have a right to expect you to do all of what she did? Do you get to pick and choose?

As mentioned, people do change and what may be enjoyable with one person may not be enjoyable with others.

Also, I know it sucks to think about it but previous boyfriends may simply be more technically accomplished lovers than you are. I do the best I can but I'm sure I'm not some sexual god in bed.

I know this is an old thread so I am using a generic you.


----------



## samyeagar

Wysh, I totally get what you're saying, and it is a complex dynamic that ties back into the more generic "The past is the past" subject. Where it gets tough is when one partner is fondly reminiscing with others, and then tries to play the past is the past card...and this is not just a thing men deal with. Women do too...my wife even. She learned that my ex wife and I engaged in a lot of toy play. I wasn't overly fond of it, but my wife did feel slighted that I didn't want to explore that with her. We have since worked through it, but yeah, it really hit her pretty hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

WyshIknew said:


> Ah this thread again.
> 
> This topic has come up from time to time and I never really know what to think.
> 
> On the one hand I can understand that someone could be hurt by this but on the other hand there are numerous other aspects to consider.
> 
> "You did it for other men but not for me." This assumes that everything she did with others, you want, you are entitled to it.
> 
> Do you get to pick and choose? A good, happy marriage is more than you just choosing where and how you stick your d1ck in her.
> 
> If you are entitled to do what she did with others is she entitled to expect you to do what others did with her too?
> 
> What if she enjoyed MMMF? What if she enjoyed scat play or golden showers? What if she was a Furry? What if she enjoyed pegging  If you have a _*right*_ to do what she did with others, does she have a right to expect you to do all of what she did? Do you get to pick and choose?
> 
> As mentioned, people do change and what may be enjoyable with one person may not be enjoyable with others.
> 
> Also, I know it sucks to think about it but previous boyfriends may simply be more technically accomplished lovers than you are. I do the best I can but I'm sure I'm not some sexual god in bed.
> 
> I know this is an old thread so I am using a generic you.


I personally think I am "entitled" to more than the other guys got. With all my serious women i have gotten more and deeper action than the ex's simply because they have not been with someone as long and I have a high sex drive.

Now to a woman who likes a sex act but says that she will not do it with me, but has done it with others and likes it, and may do it with someone other than me after me.

I don't feel entitled to the act. I simply listen to her communication of that I'm not worthy or she doesn't see me like that to perform the act with. 

And I don't want to be looked at like that by her, so I'd rather deal with someone else.

I don't feel entitled to it at all, but I definately don't ffeel less worthy than others she performed the action with.

Most of the time I have never had the issue, so i've been lucky.


----------



## WyshIknew

samyeagar said:


> Wysh, I totally get what you're saying, and it is a complex dynamic that ties back into the more generic "The past is the past" subject. Where it gets tough is when one partner is fondly reminiscing with others, and then tries to play the past is the past card...and this is not just a thing men deal with. Women do too...my wife even. She learned that my ex wife and I engaged in a lot of toy play. I wasn't overly fond of it, but my wife did feel slighted that I didn't want to explore that with her. We have since worked through it, but yeah, it really hit her pretty hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I have more sympathy with the past is the past if you are looking at, say, a 45 year old woman who did some stuff when she was 17 that she doesn't want to do now.

If however this was somebody who you have been married to for a couple of years and you found out a year or two prior to your marriage she was a freak for 'X' but can't bear it with you then yeah that could be hurtful.

I can understand your wife being slighted but I think it is a difficult, awkward conversation to have. Especially if you want to forget about an ex.

We did this, this and this. We used that, that and that. Sometimes, of a weekend, we did the other.


----------



## Fozzy

samyeagar said:


> Wysh, I totally get what you're saying, and it is a complex dynamic that ties back into the more generic "The past is the past" subject. Where it gets tough is when one partner is fondly reminiscing with others, and then tries to play the past is the past card...and this is not just a thing men deal with. Women do too...my *wife *even. She learned that my ex wife and I engaged in a lot of toy play. I wasn't overly fond of it, but my wife did feel slighted that I didn't want to explore that with her. We have since worked through it, but yeah, it really hit her pretty hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sam, just noticed this---you tied the knot?? :smthumbup:


----------



## where_are_we

I think if you have done it in the past and liked it, why not do it with a current partner. Especially a spouse? I don't get it either. 

I love the cake and cookie analogy.

Everything is on the menu and more, if only he would order it.

I have offered things to my husband that he declines.


----------



## aug

Perhaps the real solution is to divorce. Then start dating each other and have that awesome sex the wife held out because she was married.


----------



## bandit.45

Lila said:


> I honestly never thought this would be such a divided topic until I read most of the responses to the OP's post and then asked Hubby.
> 
> Apparently, we're also divided along party lines, LOL. We discussed this topic at length last night before finally agreeing to disagree. He sides with the OP that the wife should be willing to do the things that she enjoyed with other's before marriage. I side with the group arguing that what she enjoyed in the past may not be enjoyable to her in the present or may be considered high risk behavior in a marriage.
> 
> I think the specific three that the OP brought up were anal sex, BDSM, and threesomes with another woman.
> *I can understand the OP's wife avoiding anal sex if the OP is much larger than the guy(s) she mess around with in her youth.
> *BDSM is tricky - minor bondage is reasonable, but hardcore BDSM is not unless he's experienced in it.
> *Threesomes are high risk activities for several reasons: there's the possibilities of STDs, OP developing feelings for the 3rd, and/or family/friends learning about it (Unless you live in a very liberal community, people are going to see this type of activity as deviant).
> 
> No matter what I argued, hubby wouldn't budge. He said it was a blow to the OP's ego.


This is one reason I am glad they went to no fault divorce. A man who feels slighted by his wife for this issue can say... "Oh, you feel that way do you? Okay, well then I guess I can refuse all the other aspects of marriage with you....Bye. Have a nice life."


----------



## that_girl

What if, now don't stone me lol, but what if you tried something and it just wasn't what you wanted...would you have to try it with your husband too?

In my early days of my sexuality, I was into bondage. Then something snapped and anytime I would put on a collar or be handcuffed or tied down, I would panic and go into hyperventilation and it was just a mess. So I stopped. My bf at the time (my first sexual partner) understood because he saw my reactions.

My husband asked about it early on, and I told him no because of x.y.z...yes, I had done it with another man but I just can't do it again. 

We compromised and did scarves and the such but no hard bondage materials.


Should a spouse expect their love to go through something again that they know they don't like, just because they did it before?

I don't think so.


----------



## bandit.45

that_girl said:


> What if, now don't stone me lol, but what if you tried something and it just wasn't what you wanted...would you have to try it with your husband too?
> 
> In my early days of my sexuality, I was into bondage. Then something snapped and anytime I would put on a collar or be handcuffed or tied down, I would panic and go into hyperventilation and it was just a mess. So I stopped. My bf at the time (my first sexual partner) understood because he saw my reactions.
> 
> My husband asked about it early on, and I told him no because of x.y.z...yes, I had done it with another man but I just can't do it again.
> 
> We compromised and did scarves and the such but no hard bondage materials.
> 
> 
> Should a spouse expect their love to go through something again that they know they don't like, just because they did it before?
> 
> I don't think so.



Yeah but that's not what is going on here. The wife in this case told her GF that she enjoyed doing those acts with past BFs but would not do them for her husband. She enjoyed them. That is what is hanging things up here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

Ah. Got it.

That's weird that she wouldn't want to do the same things.

Weirder still that she'd brag about it to friends and her husband knows? Rude.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Ah. Got it.
> 
> That's weird that she wouldn't want to do the same things.
> 
> Weirder still that she'd brag about it to friends and her husband knows? Rude.


It's not rude, but quite dismissive as the husband as a viable sex partner.


----------



## that_girl

What I don't understand is why NOT do something you find pleasure in?

Worst thing that can happen is your partner isn't into it, then you go from there.

All the things I've enjoyed with others, I've done with my husband because I enjoy it.


----------



## bandit.45

Lila said:


> The OP, his wife, and an old friend of the OP's wife were hanging out, drinking. OP's friend gets drunk and let's it slip that OP's wife was a freak before meeting him. OP puts 2+2 together and gets mad that his wife told him she didn't do those things when they were dating.
> 
> My argument is he accepted her sexual limits before he married her. Buyer beware. lol
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Yeah but she lied about those limits. This was consumer fraud. Time for him to trade her in for a newer, faster model.


----------



## that_girl

Well, sorry for my next sex partner (if it ever happens). Anal will NOT happen ever again for me. Let them take it up the pooper. 

Threesomes? Hell no. 3somes may be fun for single people just effing around but in a marriage? Disaster waiting to happen.

BDSM...well...that's a tricky one for me, as I stated.

Why should he trade her in? Does their sex life suck? Is she being a b1tch about it now?

Did she tell him herself that she enjoyed those things but didn't want to do them with him?

I mean...for all her friend knows, the wife could have lied at the time, or exaggerated...young people do that crap for "status" bs.


----------



## bandit.45

that_girl said:


> Well, sorry for my next sex partner (if it ever happens). Anal will NOT happen ever again for me. Let them take it up the pooper.
> 
> Threesomes? Hell no. 3somes may be fun for single people just effing around but in a marriage? Disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> BDSM...well...that's a tricky one for me, as I stated.
> 
> Why should he trade her in? Does their sex life suck? Is she being a b1tch about it now?
> 
> Did she tell him herself that she enjoyed those things but didn't want to do them with him?
> 
> I mean...for all her friend knows, the wife could have lied at the time, or exaggerated...young people do that crap for "status" bs.


Don't argue with me. I'll trade you in.


----------



## that_girl

LOL please do.

I just am trying to understand without reading the 9million posts


----------



## EleGirl

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah but that's not what is going on here. The wife in this case told her GF that she enjoyed doing those acts with past BFs but would not do them for her husband. She enjoyed them. That is what is hanging things up here.


I get what you are saying here.

But, there have been a good number of TAM guys who have said that it does not matter if his wife has a reason, such as what TG stated... the wife has to do any and everything with her husband if she has ever done it with another man whether she has a problem with it or not. 

That's the thing that I don't get.


----------



## CluelessWif

nogutsnoglory said:


> She was in a committed relationship of a long term boyfriend during the threesome with another woman and she enjoyed the experience and admits it.
> She was also involved in other acts involving just her partner at the time, no threesome. She claims to have enjoyed them all, has no regrets, yet lied to me about ever doing these things. I understand but do not forgive the lie. I do not forgive liars.
> 
> My opinion on being lied to is I get to change my reaction to what it would have been had I been given the truth. I am not allowed this concession though. I am wrong to want these things, I am wrong to feel slighted. I just do not agree.


No, you don't get to freak out b/c she won't bring another woman into your bed. You just don't. People do things when they are young and crazy that they do not do when they are older. Perhaps she actually doesn't want to **** up her marriage with what she knows will be a mistake. 

This all comes down to you feeling like you are entitled to her body. You are not. You don't have the right to coerce her into a sex act she is not comfortable with regardless of whether she has done it in the past. Your wife has a history, sure. She didn't betray you and she didn't betray her ex at the time by telling you information that was not your business. Now she trusts you, all of her loyalty is to you, and she felt comfortable sharing details of her past that she didn't before.

Either divorce her or get over it, but her history does not give you the right to use her however you want without her desiring it as well.


----------



## bandit.45

EleGirl said:


> I get what you are saying here.
> 
> But, there have been a good number of TAM guys who have said that it does not matter if his wife has a reason, such as what TG stated... the wife has to do any and everything with her husband if she has ever done it with another man whether she has a problem with it or not.
> 
> That's the thing that I don't get.


If I were married and I knew my wife had tried some sexual acts and hated them and refused to do them with me? No problem. No problem at all. 

If I knew my wife had prided herself as the gangbang queen of Michigan, then found Jesus wherever he was hiding, then married me, and then refused to give me the occasional mercy blow? I'd be gone. Gone like a stain after bleach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## murphy5

I think, in a non cheating situation, what we have here is a "failure to communicate".

The guy is slighted that his partner will not share all her kinky ways with him, making him think he is somehow inadequate as a sexual stud.

The woman either does not wan to seem like a **** to her new husband, or has simply grown out of those young woman sexual impulses, and settled into a more stable, loving, sexual relationship.

And never the twain shall meet.


----------



## bandit.45

Lila said:


> Why would you marry her in the first place if she didn't suit you sexually?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


What if she hid her past? Like the OPs woman did?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Married but Happy

If she lied about something that she could reasonably expect matters to me, that would be the main issue. Not necessarily the specific sex acts - some may not matter to me, some may be unpleasant for her now (even if she enjoyed them once - hemorrhoids and anal may not mix!). Some things I'd be glad she wouldn't want to do, and that could apply to me as well. It would only be something that's not unreasonable to try that would bother me - oral, or various positions would certainly be issues if they were now off limits. Other people will have different things that they would love to experience, but may not get to even if their spouse once enjoyed them, and that is understandably disturbing.

Neither of are interested in anal. Nor BDSM beyond light bondage occasionally. We've done threesomes and neither of us did that before we got together, so that's a plus for this relationship.


----------



## EleGirl

bandit.45 said:


> What if she hid her past? Like the OPs woman did?


Maybe she did not tell all about her past because she did not want to be forced to do things that she has found she does not like or are against her moral code. People mature and change. When people are young they often do things that they later regret.

Did the guy ask? Did she lie? 

If I had a past that I was not willing to talk about, I would just tell a guy who asked that I'm not willing to talk about it. He can talk me as I am or leave it.

I've never asked a guy for an inventory of every person they have ever had sex with and every sex act they have engaged in. Nor have I been asked this kind of question, ever.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



Lila said:


> The OP's wife and the woman in your scenario presented their husbands with the things they were willing to do. The OP and the man in your scenario essentially agreed to those terms at marriage. Her terms with previous lovers play no part in the agreement with the current lover, her husband.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Sounds like the beginnings of a beautiful relationship. 

The entire thread is overlooking the glaringly and persistently common theme that if a woman loses respect and/or attraction for her mate, then the terms are subject to change without notice.

It isn't that she has grown or matured, it's that she is disinterested and disgusted at the thought of doing those things ... with her partner. 

I don't believe that anyone should partner with someone who doesn't meet their needs. 

But if you expect me to believe that if a woman came here and felt wounded that I dumped her because she doesn't want to do oral ( which I would btw. It's a deal breaker)... that the ladies here would counsel her that I have a right to desire blow jobs, and defending my boundaries ... rather than being a shallow, selfish, pig, than I have some neat irony for sale.

People want to feel connected to and safe with, their partners. Saying 'no', or lying, without some heartfelt communication isn't helping build either of those things ... especially if in the context of the relationship, something that used to be on the menu, no longer is.


----------



## EleGirl

Deejo said:


> Sounds like the beginnings of a beautiful relationship.
> 
> The entire thread is overlooking the glaringly and persistently common theme that if a woman loses respect and/or attraction for her mate, then the terms are subject to change without notice.
> 
> It isn't that she has grown or matured, it's that she is disinterested and disgusted at the thought of doing those things ... with her partner.
> 
> I don't believe that anyone should partner with someone who doesn't meet their needs.
> 
> But if you expect me to believe that if a woman came here and felt wounded that I dumped her because she doesn't want to do oral ( which I would btw. It's a deal breaker)... that the ladies here would counsel her that I have a right to desire blow jobs, and defending my boundaries ... rather than being a shallow, selfish, pig, than I have some neat irony for sale.
> 
> People want to feel connected to and safe with, their partners. Saying 'no', or lying, without some heartfelt communication isn't helping build either of those things ... especially if in the context of the relationship, something that used to be on the menu, no longer is.


I don't know about other women, but if you feel that bj's are a deal breaker then you have every right to end a marriage over that. This is especially true if you let her know this prior to marriage. It does not make you a shallow selfish pig. 

To be honest I would not want to be in a marriage where my husband stopped giving oral. A good sex life is important.

On the other hand, if my H insisted on bondage I'd have to give him the option to divorce because I cannot do bondage. My reaction to it is not good. I just cannot do it. So if he needed bondage then we're done.


----------



## Deejo

I don't believe most young couples who find themselves thrown into a loving relationship, bring 'what's on and what's off the sexual menu?' to the table


----------



## bandit.45

She humiliated him...in front of her friend... When she was drunk. She's a dumbass, bottom line. He has every right in the world to feel hurt and betrayed. He should divorce her just on grounds of stupidity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Married but Happy

Lila said:


> According to the OP, his "regular" sex with the wife is good but his ego was hurt. So if they are meeting each other's sexual needs, why is his ego hurt? She obviously finds him attractive.


Perhaps she married him for safety rather than excitement. That would be a ego-killer.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



Lila said:


> So if they are meeting each other's sexual needs, why is his ego hurt? She obviously finds him attractive.


For the exact same reason that if she were to discover that he's doing those same things with someone else, NOW.

It's the lie. It undermines the sense that one in fact has been meeting the needs of the other in light of the discovery.

Still feels like a betrayal. Calls one sense of self and connection to their partner into question.

He may not want to have anal, bondage or a 3some ... but knowing that your partner did want, and enjoyed those things without you being part of the picture can leave a mark.

To be clear, I'm not projecting here ... much. I'm just really smart.

My circumstances were different, and are very much in the rear view mirror. My ex got to the place where the thought of giving me oral disgusted her. I find it unlikely that she has, or has shared this belief with her new partner, whom she has been with for well over a year. In year 5 or 10? Could be back to disgust.

I think feeling hurt is valid.

I think feeling entitled is dangerous.


----------



## that_girl

There are NO Bjs happening in my house at the moment. Sex is happening more but no bjs. If H wants to leave because of it, then that's on him. I can't do BJs without feeling emotionally connected and right now, after all his BS, I am no where near being able to give bjs. The thought repulses me. It used to be on the menu all the time BEFORE he lied and left and all the things. But he rarely goes down on me, so I don't feel bad.

Sometimes things change. But if he wants to pack his crap and go because if it--- there's the door.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Lila said:


> She obviously finds him attractive.



Just not as much as her past men. Some guys can live with that, some can't.


----------



## that_girl

My husband is WAY more attractive than other men I've dated. You can't say that he's less attractive than other men she's been with . Maybe she drank a lot. Partied. So these sex things happened and she doesn't like that about her past. 

Her friend and she were stupid to talk about it. I'd be livid if an old friend brought up old sexual partners of mine around my family.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Attracted isn't the right word, you're right. But I really believe she's not as into him as past lovers. Same with you. You're not that into him anymore. You've got good reasons for that but at the end of the day it's just the fact of the matter.


----------



## that_girl

That doesn't mean it can't come back at some point.
Me not doing bondage with him has nothing to do with what I feel towards him but about ME and how much I learned I hated it.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: you did it for other men, but not me?*



that_girl said:


> There are NO Bjs happening in my house at the moment. Sex is happening more but no bjs. If H wants to leave because of it, then that's on him. I can't do BJs without feeling emotionally connected and right now, after all his BS, I am no where near being able to give bjs. The thought repulses me. It used to be on the menu all the time BEFORE he lied and left and all the things. But he rarely goes down on me, so I don't feel bad.
> 
> Sometimes things change. But if he wants to pack his crap and go because if it--- there's the door.


And for the record TG, my ex became disgusted, and felt no emotional connection without my having done anything remotely resembling what your husband pulled. Just saying ... Context is seldom equivalent.


----------



## that_girl

Deejo said:


> And for the record TG, my ex became disgusted, and felt no emotional connection without my having done anything remotely resembling what your husband pulled. Just saying ... Context is seldom equivalent.


Yes, I can see how that would cause issues. I don't even understand how that works--- feeling disgusted for no real reasons. If things were good here in my land, I'd not hold back in the sexual realm.


----------



## Catherine602

nogutsnoglory said:


> She was in a committed relationship of a long term boyfriend during the threesome with another woman and she enjoyed the experience and admits it.
> She was also involved in other acts involving just her partner at the time, no threesome. She claims to have enjoyed them all, has no regrets, yet lied to me about ever doing these things. I understand but do not forgive the lie. I do not forgive liars.
> 
> My opinion on being lied to is I get to change my reaction to what it would have been had I been given the truth. I am not allowed this concession though. I am wrong to want these things, I am wrong to feel slighted. I just do not agree.


Is this real?? Just in case.....
I think it was wrong of your wife to decieve you. You are right, you had a right to chose who you wanted to marry and she took that choice from you. You said you forgive her and then you said you wanted her to feel consequences for what she did but you said you did not forgive her for deceiving you. 

I don't think this is about sex only. It's much more complex. I am confused, why your wife telling you all these things now when she was not forthcoming before. It sounds cruel. Why would she go into such detail. She is taunting you. Why is that. To me, your marriage does not sound good. The question is not about sex it's about what happened between you two that makes her throw this at you now. That's what you have to deal with. 

As far as sex, you will not succeed in getting your wife to be more adventurous with you until you solve the problem of her basic respect and valuation her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Noble1

that_girl said:


> Ah. Got it.
> 
> That's weird that she wouldn't want to do the same things.
> 
> Weirder still that she'd brag about it to friends and her husband knows? Rude.



For me, this the the main driver of the whole issue.

Its not that she had a valid/good reason to deny the "cake" its that she just plain said "no cake for you". BUT it all started when she lied to him about the "cake" when he did ask about it before they were married (taking the OP at face value).

(now I'm just guessing as it was not noted in this thread that I saw and I haven't follow up on the related threads)

For me, I know my wife is a bit 'sensitive' to certain acts due to past experience and while I would like to have those experiences with her I totally understand why she/we don't go there.

However, if she told me or I found out that she does indeed enjoy "x" just not with me....well then...it might be immature, but I'm out. There is no way I'm being 2nd place in this situation.

Its hard enough to play 2nd to all the kids all the time, never mind a past (hopefully) ghost.


----------



## chillymorn

emotional blackmail.


----------



## Catherine602

I think women are 50% responsible for the sexual dysfunction in relationships. They don't have a clearly defined laundry list of male sexual performance requirements like men have for women. They don't dump men who can't deliver because they hope he will get better with no communication. They accept men who cannot honor a request for her pleasure or a man with a fragile ego and cannot take direction with out feeling hurt. 

Based on what I have leaned by reading some of the post from men, I would also caution wives to be careful about what they try. They may not be allowed to express a choice again. I understand why many women don't want to try some sexual things. It may be giving away her right to chose what happens to her body. That's not always the case but you never know till it happens. 

It's all about how sex is approached in the relationship. It should be about mutual satisfaction and not the sex acts a woman should do. Women need weed out men who believe that sex is primarily about his pleasure. A laundry list of sexual deal breakers is a red flag. If he is a good lover with a strong ego, he is worth exploring but if he is selfish, move on. 

Women need to make sure they are not giving more than they get sexually. They are 50% responsible for the male oriented sex so common in our culture. If enough women made good sexual performance a requirement to continue a relationship, men would have a clear idea of what they need to do. Women should not be so concerned about the male ego, they should be concerned about a good sustainable sexual relationship. That will not happen if their partner is clueless and she is uncommunicative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Mutually satisfying? Or lowest common denominator? You say the first but describe the latter as better.


----------



## techmom

WorkingOnMe said:


> Mutually satisfying? Or lowest common denominator? You say the first but describe the latter as better.


I get Catherine's post to mean that if a married couple tries something, say anal, and the woman finds it painful or uncomfortable, the hubby should not get all pouty when she says that she does not want to try it again.

Mutual satisfaction means that both are enjoying it, not one feeling guilted into the act because the hubby's ego can't take it.


----------



## chillymorn

Catherine602 said:


> I think women are 50% responsible for the sexual dysfunction in relationships. They don't have a clearly defined laundry list of male sexual performance requirements like men have for women. They don't dump men who can't deliver because they hope he will get better with no communication. They accept men who cannot honor a request for her pleasure or a man with a fragile ego and cannot take direction with out feeling hurt.
> 
> Based on what I have leaned by reading some of the post from men, I would also caution wives to be careful about what they try. They may not be allowed to express a choice again. I understand why many women don't want to try some sexual things. It may be giving away her right to chose what happens to her body. That's not always the case but you never know till it happens.
> 
> It's all about how sex is approached in the relationship. It should be about mutual satisfaction and not the sex acts a woman should do. Women need weed out men who believe that sex is primarily about his pleasure. A laundry list of sexual deal breakers is a red flag. If he is a good lover with a strong ego, he is worth exploring but if he is selfish, move on.
> 
> Women need to make sure they are not giving more than they get sexually. They are 50% responsible for the male oriented sex so common in our culture. If enough women made good sexual performance a requirement to continue a relationship, men would have a clear idea of what they need to do. Women should not be so concerned about the male ego, they should be concerned about a good sustainable sexual relationship. That will not happen if their partner is clueless and she is uncommunicative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this is a huge generalization. lots of women dump men because they don't meet their emotional and sexual needs. Or they just cheat after as you put it they didn't communicate and then out of disrespect or feeling taken for granted many times ruining families or the best year of a guys life.

But I agree with your general thought process which correct me if I'm wrong is communication is key and sometime during communication it hurts your partners feelings and that's ok . as long as its done lovingly. But as you must know some people men and women can't handle the truth. and theres the rub. by the time people come here looking for advice they have tried everything without any success. so the problem really lies with if you picked a partner who can not except criticism. Or is just to selfish to try to meet theirs partners needs.


----------



## Catherine602

WorkingOnMe said:


> Mutually satisfying? Or lowest common denominator? You say the first but describe the latter as better.


I'm not sure what you mean WOM.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

techmom said:


> I get Catherine's post to mean that if a married couple tries something, say anal, and the woman finds it painful or uncomfortable, the hubby should not get all pouty when she says that she does not want to try it again.
> 
> 
> 
> Mutual satisfaction means that both are enjoying it, not one feeling guilted into the act because the hubby's ego can't take it.



In Catherine's scenario the spouse who wants more goes without and the spouse who wants less is satisfied. That's not mutual satisfaction. That's lowest common denominator. It's doing the minimum for one and the max for the other. This can go either way. I never mentioned genders.


----------



## techmom

WorkingOnMe said:


> In Catherine's scenario the spouse who wants more goes without and the spouse who wants less is satisfied. That's not mutual satisfaction. That's lowest common denominator. It's doing the minimum for one and the max for the other. This can go either way. I never mentioned genders.


This is not what I got out of the post. Should the spouse who wants more be able to force and cajole the other spouse into doing whatever sex act they feel they are owed? That would not be mutual satisfaction either.


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

Have you considered telling her that it is important for you to have certain experiences, that finding out she had some of them and lied about it has intensified your feeelings and made you think about it all the time. If she brushes you off then tell her you really want her to be part of it but the obsession is getting the best of you and you may have to do it without her.


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingOnMe said:


> In Catherine's scenario the spouse who wants more goes without and the spouse who wants less is satisfied. That's not mutual satisfaction. That's lowest common denominator. It's doing the minimum for one and the max for the other. This can go either way. I never mentioned genders.


What she was saying is that if a woman ( or man but this example does not usually work for a man) feels that trying anal (for example) once means that she then signs up for it for life even if she find that she does not like it, if it hurts her, etc.. then she's not likely to try it even the first time. If she thinks than even trying something new takes away her right to not want to do it in the future she most likely will not fee safe enough to try it the first time.


----------



## treyvion

Lila said:


> The OP's wife and the woman in your scenario presented their husbands with the things they were willing to do. The OP and the man in your scenario essentially agreed to those terms at marriage. Her terms with previous lovers play no part in the agreement with the current lover, her husband.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


No. We were saying that she has half a dozen sex acts or so locked up in the closet. The husband was married for a convenience and she really does like doing those things. She just said it's not for him and she cannot see him in a light which will allow her to do that with him.

So it's not a good thing at all, it's quite evil.


----------



## treyvion

techmom said:


> This is not what I got out of the post. Should the spouse who wants more be able to force and cajole the other spouse into doing whatever sex act they feel they are owed? That would not be mutual satisfaction either.


If she likes doing this said sex act and I am her long term boyfriend or husband, and it's not degrading or bringing others into the bedroom, I'm not going to be too happy if it's for most others and just not me. Actually I would not stand for it, you leave.


----------



## Catherine602

What Treyvion said. Why would a person who loves you say they like doing something intimately with someone else and they still like it but not with you?

It would be like my husband telling me he liked being affectionate with his former gf but not with me, knowing that I have a need for affection. It's not loving and its cruel besides.


----------



## staarz21

I'm going to say she probably doesn't think it's appropriate for the marriage. I saw that threesome was thrown out there. For many people in a monogamous marriage, a threesome is NOT ok. So, I can see why she wouldn't want to engage in that anymore. It changes the entire dynamic of the relationship if she doesn't want to share. It's not even fair to ask her to have a threesome when you're in an agreed upon monogamous marriage.

Anal - Maybe she really enjoyed it back then, maybe she didn't and said she did so she wouldn't look like a prude (which is thrown around ALOT for a woman who refuses to do anal these days).

BDSM - Maybe she once enjoyed it, but something happened and it became too rough? Maybe the H did something that made her lose trust in the relationship which then took BDSM off the table...trust is a big part of BDSM. 

There are way too many reasons why sexual tastes change. Especially over 20 years. (I think I read OP was married 20 years before finding out the info). I could be wrong though. 

It's his right to be mad. Point is, no one knows but her and I doubt he will get the truth. 

Also, if she really DID enjoy it, my guess would be that she would WANT to do it again. Otherwise, she didn't really enjoy it. Hence the never doing it again dynamic.


----------



## treyvion

staarz21 said:


> I'm going to say she probably doesn't think it's appropriate for the marriage. I saw that threesome was thrown out there. For many people in a monogamous marriage, a threesome is NOT ok. So, I can see why she wouldn't want to engage in that anymore. It changes the entire dynamic of the relationship if she doesn't want to share. It's not even fair to ask her to have a threesome when you're in an agreed upon monogamous marriage.
> 
> Anal - Maybe she really enjoyed it back then, maybe she didn't and said she did so she wouldn't look like a prude (which is thrown around ALOT for a woman who refuses to do anal these days).
> 
> BDSM - Maybe she once enjoyed it, but something happened and it became too rough? Maybe the H did something that made her lose trust in the relationship which then took BDSM off the table...trust is a big part of BDSM.
> 
> There are way too many reasons why sexual tastes change. Especially over 20 years. (I think I read OP was married 20 years before finding out the info). I could be wrong though.
> 
> It's his right to be mad. Point is, no one knows but her and I doubt he will get the truth.
> 
> Also, if she really DID enjoy it, my guess would be that she would WANT to do it again. Otherwise, she didn't really enjoy it. Hence the never doing it again dynamic.



Many keep on doing the things they really like to do. Sometimes it's just not with the spouse.


----------



## BostonBruins32

seems we keep going around and around on this thread.

lets think outside the box. are wedding ring a sexual turn off? My guess is that a steady job and assistance with raising a child are both signs that a husband is not interested in any funny business inside the bedroom. It's likely that because I make sure our bills are paid on time and I repair her car as needed, sexual exploration with me is icky to her. Totally understandable. If someone committed to me and settle down with me, I wouldnt want to go the extra mile for them. 

wow i just vented. and I'm not sure I made this thread any better. my bad everyone.


----------



## WyshIknew

And as I said earlier, why should you pick and choose?

Man; "Hey I just found out that you used to do anal and swallow (not at the same time) with Dirk Mcbigd1ck and Hank Studly, I think it only fair that you do the same with me."

Woman; "Yeah, ok, however I also used to indulge in a little pegging with Dirk Mcbigd1ck and I also used to be a Furry with Hank. If you want some of what I had with them then I think it 'fair' that I also have some of what I had with them with you."

"Now drop your trousers while I strap this on......."

One of the problems with the thread originally was that we would only get information in dribs and drabs.


----------



## techmom

Catherine602 said:


> What Treyvion said. Why would a person who loves you say they like doing something intimately with someone else and they still like it but not with you?
> 
> It would be like my husband telling me he liked being affectionate with his former gf but not with me, knowing that I have a need for affection. It's not loving and its cruel besides. I am not talking about his situation.


Comparing affection and some sex act like anal sex does not make sense to me. They are 2 separate things. If the wife still likes to do whatever sex act but doesn't want to do them with with hubby, then maybe she sees hubby as a person who interacts with her everyday and doesn't want to share that side of herself with him.

Sometimes people don't feel comfortable sharing in sex acts which they view as dirty with a person who they want to show their best side to. It is like the mystery of why some girls do all of the nasty sex acts with boys who they will never see again and hold off on the guy who they really would like to marry. Some women are trained from girlhood in the "good girls don't enjoy sex" school of thought. 

I know of a couple of women who were wild with guys, then when they found the guy who they wanted to marry they held off from having sex for a while. This is so they won't be perceived as a *****, even though they were wild with guys who they would never think about getting in a true relationship with. Men are not immune from this kind of thinking either, because they talk about the girl to have fun with and the girl you marry and bring home to mom.

We, as a society, are still not accustomed to the truly sexually liberated woman who would not feel like she can't act like her true sexual self with the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with. We play these games so we can be valued and not thrown away by the guy we love, so we hold off and act virginal. Centuries of sexual supression of women and religion is to blame for this. Only within the last 10 years have we been trying to stem the tide of this dynamic, probably as a result of sexless marriages. 

Personally, I waited until marriage to have sex, so I avoided having to supress past sexual experiences because there were none to speak of. Unfortunately, as my luck would have it, my hubby came with HIS past experiences and things he wanted to do and his views of how my sexual response should be. So I'm dealing with similar crap, he compares me to those girls from his past. And not in a good way.


----------



## Thor

techmom said:


> I know of a couple of women who were wild with guys, then when they found the guy who they wanted to marry they held off from having sex for a while. This is so they won't be perceived as a *****, even though they were wild with guys who they would never think about getting in a true relationship with. Men are not immune from this kind of thinking either, because they talk about the girl to have fun with and the girl you marry and bring home to mom.


The funny thing is that men want to be married to a woman who enjoys sex. We don't want to be married to a repressed cold fish! There's a difference between being sexually adventurous within a serious relationship and being the town bicycle.


----------



## tom67

Thor said:


> The funny thing is that men want to be married to a woman who enjoys sex. We don't want to be married to a repressed cold fish! There's a difference between being sexually adventurous within a serious relationship and being the town bicycle.


BINGO!!!!:iagree::iagree:


----------



## techmom

Thor said:


> The funny thing is that men want to be married to a woman who enjoys sex. We don't want to be married to a repressed cold fish! There's a difference between being sexually adventurous within a serious relationship and being the town bicycle.


I agree. Thing is that girls growing up into women are not taught or guided on how to navigate that thin line between adventurous and being the town bicycle. 

When I was growing up there were a few adventurous girls I knew of. These girls would have sex and I think they were high libido. But the boys would sometimes brag to each other about what they did, damaging to the girl's reputation. One story would lead to another, because other boys would ask the girl out so they can see how far they can get. Seeing this happen to another female made girls like me cautious, so I avoided the whole thing until marriage.

Then, it is not like we can just flip a switch and turn into the good giving game wife.


----------



## over20

Yes, a wife can.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WyshIknew said:


> And as I said earlier, why should you pick and choose?
> 
> Man; "Hey I just found out that you used to do anal and swallow (not at the same time) with Dirk Mcbigd1ck and Hank Studly, I think it only fair that you do the same with me."
> 
> Woman; "Yeah, ok, however I also used to indulge in a little pegging with Dirk Mcbigd1ck and I also used to be a Furry with Hank. If you want some of what I had with them then I think it 'fair' that I also have some of what I had with them with you."
> 
> "Now drop your trousers while I strap this on......."
> 
> One of the problems with the thread originally was that we would only get information in dribs and drabs.


This is where I'm fine talking the talk and walking the walk. If I wanted her to be more open minded with me, I would pay it right back to her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

techmom said:


> I agree. Thing is that girls growing up into women are not taught or guided on how to navigate that thin line between adventurous and being the town bicycle.
> 
> When I was growing up there were a few adventurous girls I knew of. These girls would have sex and I think they were high libido. But the boys would sometimes brag to each other about what they did, damaging to the girl's reputation. One story would lead to another, because other boys would ask the girl out so they can see how far they can get. Seeing this happen to another female made girls like me cautious, so I avoided the whole thing until marriage.
> 
> Then, it is not like we can just flip a switch and turn into the good giving game wife.


This implies that a woman is unable to separate being the town bicycle from being a sexually active wife? Really? 

I don't buy it for a second. From age 14 to age 22, my only goal was to get laid. As often, with as many girls I could find willing. Thats what I saw on MTV. Thats what my friends tried to do. Thats what puberty made me feel. ETc.. Magically I was able to grow out of this feeling and understand it was just a part of my youth. 

I think a woman can separate being the town hussie from being a wife who enjoys sex with her husband. For some, I just think for selfish reasons, laziness, resentment etc..they use this as an excuse for why the valve has shut off.


----------



## Theseus

EleGirl said:


> But, there have been a good number of TAM guys who have said that it does not matter if his wife has a reason, such as what TG stated... the wife has to do any and everything with her husband if she has ever done it with another man whether she has a problem with it or not.
> 
> That's the thing that I don't get.


That's a strawman, no one has said a husband has the right to do everything with his wife that she has done with others in the past. 

What they have said was they can understand why he would be hurt and angry, because it strongly implies that his wife is not really attracted to him, and settled for him. 

What part of that is so hard to understand? Maybe if you switch the genders involved it would be clearer to you...




EleGirl said:


> I don't know about other women, but if you feel that bj's are a deal breaker then you have every right to end a marriage over that. This is especially true if you let her know this prior to marriage. It does not make you a shallow selfish pig.
> 
> To be honest I would not want to be in a marriage where my husband stopped giving oral. A good sex life is important.


Now it sounds like you are starting to understand.


----------



## Theseus

Lila said:


> I honestly never thought this would be such a divided topic until I read most of the responses to the OP's post and then asked Hubby.
> 
> Apparently, we're also divided along party lines, LOL. We discussed this topic at length last night before finally agreeing to disagree. He sides with the OP that the wife should be willing to do the things that she enjoyed with other's before marriage. I side with the group arguing that what she enjoyed in the past may not be enjoyable to her in the present or may be considered high risk behavior in a marriage.


Actually, neither of you are really incorrect, so you don't need to disagree. There is a nuance here that some people are missing. The wife is entitled to her feelings, but so is the husband. In this case, the wife simply has to face the consequences of denying her husband the same intimacy that she shared with others. 

No man (or woman) wants to be the one their spouse "settled" for.


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

To the OP: I understand your pain and agree that you should be hurt, extremely hurt. You wife was erotically modivated by others to do things and enjoy things with them that she will not consider with you. Her discussion with her drunken friend tells me that those things are still on the table, just not your table. You are not what you thought you were to her. In addition, she lied to you to keep you in your place. She is willng to do that again and she is a high risk to cheat at some point. This is going to eat you alive, even if she changes her stand now. My advice is to start planning for divorce. Enjoy what you can for now but get ready to move on. Protect yourself emotionally and financially.


----------



## samyeagar

Fozzy said:


> Sam, just noticed this---you tied the knot?? :smthumbup:


Yep ) The first day of summer...a bit over a week ago now


----------



## samyeagar

EleGirl said:


> Maybe she did not tell all about her past because she did not want to be forced to do things that she has found she does not like or are against her moral code. People mature and change. When people are young they often do things that they later regret.
> 
> Did the guy ask? Did she lie?
> 
> If I had a past that I was not willing to talk about, I would just tell a guy who asked that I'm not willing to talk about it. He can talk me as I am or leave it.
> 
> I've never asked a guy for an inventory of every person they have ever had sex with and every sex act they have engaged in. Nor have I been asked this kind of question, ever.


For the purposes of this post, I am using the broad inclusive "you" and not you specifically 

If you had a past, and said I'm not wanting to talk about it with the guy...then don't be talking about it with other people either...I think that is the biggest underlying there for the guys who are saying they have a problem with this behavior. It is not the specific acts that are the issue...we do accept that people change, but if it truly is something that is uncomfortable now, and truly is in the past, then why is there fond reminiscing with other people who are not your significant other?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
> I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.





ScarletBegonias said:


> wow...long thread so I'm sorry if my comments were already said,I tried to wade through them all but damn! lol
> 
> OP,I get what you're saying. I really do and I am guilty of not being wild with my husband like I was with my exhusband.
> 
> My reason,FWIW,was because I just wanted love and attention from my ex and it seemed the only way he wanted anything to do with me was when I was some sexy sex crazed sex kitten that would do anything he wanted.
> 
> My DH pays attention to me.He gives me love,amazing sex,orgasms galore, and meets all my needs. With him, I can be who I really am emotionally and sexually instead of faking it by turning into some wild sex pot persona that isn't sustainable long term. I'm also a bit older and more in tune with my body to know what REALLY turns me on and what doesn't.
> 
> I'd still do anything he asked of me. Even though he knows I was wild,he isn't into that bc it wasn't really me.He's into who I am now.Not who I was pretending to be back then.
> 
> Not sure if that helps or not..


What's cool about this thread is even though it's over 60 pages long,I don't even have to create a new post. I'll just agree with my originals. 

round and round


----------



## treyvion

Lila said:


> Probably because you were never made to feel ashamed of your past behavior. Openly sexual or promiscuous women are judged as "used goods" by the majority of men, even in our so-called forward thinking society.
> 
> Many women come to a point in their lives where they have to choose whether or not to repress their sexuality in order to "gain" a husband. In order to successfully repress those feelings, many women negatively associate them in their minds. It takes a whole lot more effort to "flip the switch" when you have those types of hurdles to overcome.
> 
> Trust me, I'm a wife and Technomom's point is spot on. The Madonna/***** complex is still alive and kicking in 2014.


You would think if they really wanted to gain and KEEP a husband that they would put it on him and be MORE sexually adventerous than they where before him.


----------



## davecarter

My current g/f, who, as it looks now, is who I'm getitng into a very serious relationship with, did a _lot _of sexual stuff with a particular ex-bf of hers which I havn't even tried yet.

It's more _"Am I into that?" _rather than _"Am I up to that?"_


It could become a problem if she starts to think about those particular sexual acts, that kind of sexual-demeanour she had from him and whether she misses it.

And, there is transparency between us - she freely admits she is in contact with him in that they text/email from time to time...dunno if that's good, bad or both.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> What's cool about this thread is even though it's over 60 pages long,I don't even have to create a new post. I'll just agree with my originals.
> 
> round and round


Fun times huh 

I will address the point you made about why do guys think women think back and recall...with my own experience...

My wife and I wanted to get married in Vegas, and she wanted to stay in this one hotel because she loved it, beautiful room, beautiful view...I was on board with it at that point. Sounded great.

A few months later, she was hosting a Pure Romance party, and while the party was over, a few of her friends were still there when I got home, and we were all hanging out, and one of her friends asked about my wife having sex on the balcony in that hotel...ok...yeah, pretty much the entire night had been spent talking about their sexual pasts, and if this is something being recalled and talked about over a decade later, there is a good bet that when we got to that same hotel, there would be some thoughts wandering back to her exploits there with her ex husband...needless to say we didn't go to Vegas, though for financial reasons, but had we gone, no way was I staying in that hotel. I told her exactly why I didn't want to spend our wedding night there, and she understood and was ok with it. In fact when she was looking for hotel packages, she made a point to exculde any of the hotel she had previously stayed in with her ex husband.


----------



## chillymorn

Lila said:


> You're right, no one wants to feel like their spouse "settled" for them but basing that judgement on only one element of a marriage, in this case the wife denying the hubby her pre-hubby kinky sexual side, is incredibly narrow minded.
> 
> Men say that sexual compatibility is important in a marriage but it's also one of a growing list of attributes they require to be happy. There are so many others including respect, shared goals, interest in their lives, etc... (see thread What Makes a Man Feel Loved, True?).
> 
> The thing that surprises me is the posts telling the OP to leave his wife over this. What about considering all of the other great qualities that drew these two together in the first place? We don't have to be #1 at every aspect in marriage, but we do have to come out on top overall.


well thats your opinion comming for a women. But as you can see a lot of the mens opinion differ from yours. I would venture to say your wife not lying to you about sexuall compatibility is at the top of most mens list. 

the list of attribute you list are also the same as a womans for them to be in a happy marriage.

seems like you might have a double standard there.


----------



## Thor

Lila said:


> Probably because you were never made to feel ashamed of your past behavior. Openly sexual or promiscuous women are judged as "used goods" by the majority of men, even in our so-called forward thinking society.
> 
> Many women come to a point in their lives where they have to choose whether or not to repress their sexuality in order to "gain" a husband. In order to successfully repress those feelings, many women negatively associate them in their minds. It takes a whole lot more effort to "flip the switch" when you have those types of hurdles to overcome.
> 
> Trust me, I'm a wife and Technomom's point is spot on. The Madonna/***** complex is still alive and kicking in 2014.


I agree with some of this, but I think the Madonna/wh9re is much more in the minds of women than men these days.

Men are concerned with faithfulness. A woman whose history is full of ONS and group sex with strangers would be worrisome as a wife. But a woman who has had an age-appropriate number of long term relationships would not be problematic. If she typically dates one guy for a year or more, no problem if she is freely sexual with him.


----------



## treyvion

davecarter said:


> My current g/f, who, as it looks now, is who I'm getitng into a very serious relationship with, did a _lot _of sexual stuff with a particular ex-bf of hers which I havn't even tried yet.
> 
> It's more _"Am I into that?" _rather than _"Am I up to that?"_
> 
> 
> It could become a problem if she starts to think about those particular sexual acts, that kind of sexual-demeanour she had from him and whether she misses it.
> 
> And, there is transparency between us - she freely admits she is in contact with him in that they text/email from time to time...dunno if that's good, bad or both.


I couldn't have that. Of course coming into it for the first couple of weeks, they are going to have done more with her and in more quantity.

Over the years I should eclipse previous lovers in rate of sexuality, she should open up to me in a more passionate way...

Also, if she has degrading sex acts or things she tried but she really doesn't want to do, thats fine, it can be removed.

However a woman messing with me is going to like to:

1. Be affectionate
2. Kiss
3. PIV - 5 nights or so a week, can do it every day. Actually wants sex, and realizes when they get past menopause that they know for a fact they don't want me to lose sex with her.
4. Oral - both ways. doesn't have to be every time, but she has to try. Enough PIV make me not think about oral.
5. Anal - When I had it I realized I could let it go. It was good for a diversion every once in a while, so she would at least try it.. And be up for a couple times a month

There's not going to be none of this stuff, that she was having fun with the girls and competing and banging guys in more quantities and more adventure than me. She's going to do it all with me.

If she did group stuff before, I might dip my toe in the water, but I will not be obligated to it, nor will I have her guy friends closer to her than I am.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

My husband thankfully doesn't care what I did with my exes or where I did it. I guess it's good we share the same mindset on past experiences/lovers. 

It would be sad to have to limit our experiences to places we hadn't been w/exes.


----------



## that_girl

No one knows for a FACT how they'll feel after menopause.

Maybe she doesn't like anal. She did it but doesn't like it. You'd dump her over anal?

Good grief.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> My husband thankfully doesn't care what I did with my exes or where I did it. I guess it's good we share the same mindset on past experiences/lovers.
> 
> It would be sad to have to limit our experiences to places we hadn't been w/exes.


He obviously believes he is #1 in your book. :smthumbup:


----------



## that_girl

ScarletBegonias said:


> My husband thankfully doesn't care what I did with my exes or where I did it. I guess it's good we share the same mindset on past experiences/lovers.
> 
> It would be sad to have to limit our experiences to places we hadn't been w/exes.


I agree.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> My husband thankfully doesn't care what I did with my exes or where I did it. I guess it's good we share the same mindset on past experiences/lovers.
> 
> *It would be sad to have to limit our experiences to places we hadn't been w/exes*.


I understand people have differing mindsets, and my wife and I have done things in places past, many things in places past  But in my example...are you sure that is where you would have wanted to spend your wedding night?

I am also fortunate in that my wife has left nothing off the table with me, and has even wanted to explore further than she's ever gone before.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do some men think a woman's mind constantly wanders back to previous lovers? Like the beach sex thing.Why would a man think just bc his wife had sex on some beach with some former lover it automatically means that the beach=hot sex thoughts of other man for her that must be eradicated from her brain and the way to do it is to f*ck current partner on the beach.
> I'd just as soon forget my past sexual experiences and happily pretend DH is my first and only.





samyeagar said:


> I understand people have differing mindsets, and my wife and I have done things in places past, many things in places past  But in my example...are you sure that is where you would have wanted to spend your wedding night?
> 
> I am also fortunate in that my wife has left nothing off the table with me, and has even wanted to explore further than she's ever gone before.



If I had married any other man aside from DH,yes it likely would have mattered to me.Those things used to matter to me greatly.

Since being with DH,nothing in the past matters.I wouldn't have cared about the hotel thing with him.


----------



## Thor

Lila said:


> The interesting part is that they were compatible up until he found out about her previous kinky sexual history. She never gave him a reason to doubt he was #1. Now, there's nothing she can do, short of doing the things she doesn't want to do sexually, to make him see she still thinks of him as her #1.


But it would _appear_ that she in fact did not think of him as #1. It appears that she _settled_ for him because of other factors. 

Did she catch a good earner? Did she catch a stable but boring man who would be a safe husband (won't cheat, won't go to jail, won't beat her)? No man wants to be that man!

At first he thought he was #1 in her book. Then he learned she enjoyed all these wild things with other men, yet she has no desire to do them with him. And it appears she _still_ thinks fondly of doing those things _with other men_.

That's the problem. She thinks more highly of other men sexually than she does of her husband. This implies she never had the same kind of love or respect for her husband than she did for these other men.


----------



## that_girl

But having a 3some seems like something she did as a single woman with single people.

Was she married and having 3somes? It makes a DIFFERENCE.

Maybe she respects him more than to invite another person into the bedroom. Damn.

It has nothing to do with love and respect. She could have been drunk or just horny and they were friends/bfs...doesn't mean she loved them MORE just because she had 3somes and anal.

Holy sh1t.


----------



## chillymorn

Lila said:


> Obviously, the wife and husband are not sexually compatible NOW, otherwise there would be no argument. The interesting part is that they were compatible up until he found out about her previous kinky sexual history. She never gave him a reason to doubt he was #1. Now, there's nothing she can do, short of doing the things she doesn't want to do sexually, to make him see she still thinks of him as her #1.
> 
> Whatever happened to looking at the entirety of a relationship?


that goes both ways. there are plenty of women who come here saying they have a good man good provider good father but he isn't romantic enough or he has a low sex drive and its a deal breaker.

a deal breaker is a deal breaker.

If one of the women who I mentioned above found out her husband was a super romantic man with his previous women but then wasn't so much for her what would you say. or a low drive husband was high drive with other girl friends but not with her what would you say.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> He obviously believes he is #1 in your book. :smthumbup:


He believes correctly


----------



## chillymorn

Lila said:


> So short of doing the things she doesn't want to do sexually, is there anything she can do to convince him he's #1 in her life?


sure but he won't be #1 sexually ever in his mind because the cat out of the bag. Men want to be #1 sexually in theirs wife life. and its sux that she decieved him into believing he was.


----------



## Thor

Lila said:


> So short of doing the things she doesn't want to do sexually, is there anything she can do to convince him he's #1 in her life?


No. Precisely because she doesn't want to do it with him, yet she still enjoys the memories of doing it with other men.

To me the key is that she not only enjoyed it with other men but talks about it fondly in the present. If she had a good reason today, like it was never fun but she did it out of some feeling of obligation, or her body has changed and now it is painful, then there would be a good reason. But the reality is the only reason we can come up with is that she has a lower sexual regard for her husband than she has for other men.

Also, it isn't that he has to be the best lover she ever had at every sexual thing. He just needs to believe that she desires him more than she desires any other man. Evidently she does not desire him more if she is not interested in doing things with him that she enjoys doing.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> But it would _appear_ that she in fact did not think of him as #1. It appears that she _settled_ for him because of other factors.
> 
> Did she catch a good earner? Did she catch a stable but boring man who would be a safe husband (won't cheat, won't go to jail, won't beat her)? No man wants to be that man!
> 
> At first he thought he was #1 in her book. Then he learned she enjoyed all these wild things with other men, yet she has no desire to do them with him. And it appears she _still_ thinks fondly of doing those things _with other men_.
> 
> That's the problem. She thinks more highly of other men sexually than she does of her husband. This implies she never had the same kind of love or respect for her husband than she did for these other men.


She could've done the stuff in the past under the guise of partying and wilding out. For some reason doing it on one night stands and the party aspect was much more exciting for her.


----------



## davecarter

What about compatiility?
Sometimes I feel that's an issue, as is level-of-libido.

But what to do when everything else in the relationship is so great? Do you go _"Hmmm...sorry chick, I don't we have enough 'chemistry', I'm calling it a day"_ and throw in the towell?

Just because of lack-of-sex or lukewarm sex?


----------



## that_girl

davecarter said:


> What about compatiility?
> Sometimes I feel that's an issue, as is level-of-libido.
> 
> But what to do when everything else in the relationship is so great? Do you go _"Hmmm...sorry chick, I don't we have enough 'chemistry', I'm calling it a day"_ and throw in the towell?
> 
> Just because of lack-of-sex or lukewarm sex?


YES.

....I have broken up with men because they had very low sex drives....even though they were good men.

I love sex. I need it. I don't get all crazy about what someone will do with me if they did it to their exes. Omg. lol. I just like what I like. Nothing crazy.


----------



## that_girl

treyvion said:


> She could've done the stuff in the past under the guise of partying and wilding out. For some reason doing it on one night stands and the party aspect was much more exciting for her.


It could have been bfs. Partying. Being stupid.

You were never young?


----------



## that_girl

Maybe she should have a threesome with her husband and some hot guy or hot woman.

Yea. THAT will make her man feel better.  Please.


----------



## chillymorn

davecarter said:


> What about compatiility?
> Sometimes I feel that's an issue, as is level-of-libido.
> 
> But what to do when everything else in the relationship is so great? Do you go _"Hmmm...sorry chick, I don't we have enough 'chemistry', I'm calling it a day"_ and throw in the towell?
> 
> Just because of lack-of-sex or lukewarm sex?


most likley if its luke warm or a low libedo issue it will get worse in a long term relationship. so yes if sex is important to you then I would advise moving on in this situation.


----------



## chillymorn

disclaimer:

I not talking about threesomes as I believe there is no place for them in a marriage.

I talking more about bj's, anal (not really even anal as I don't really enjoy it) but frequency etc just being open and honest about what you like and trying to meet eachother needs as best as possible.


----------



## that_girl

If she has NEVER given him a BJ...then that is a huge issue. I think THAT would be the biggest issue.

Anal is up in the air ( I personally think the men who cry about no anal should first TRY anal).

And 3somes are a BAD IDEA. Period.


----------



## davecarter

chillymorn said:


> most likley if its luke warm or a low libedo issue it will get worse in a long term relationship. so yes if sex is important to you then I would advise moving on in this situation.


It must be me then - as I get older, it becomes less and less important. 

The irony is, physically, I'm in the best shape, physically than I've ever been. lol

The problem could arise that my current g/f is 16 yrs younger than me.


----------



## that_girl

davecarter said:


> It must be me then - as I get older, it becomes less and less important.
> 
> The irony is, physically, I'm in the best shape, physically than I've ever been. lol
> 
> The problem could arise that my current g/f is 16 yrs younger than me.


Maybe you're just low drive. So finding someone low drive would be best.


----------



## bandit.45

that_girl said:


> If she has NEVER given him a BJ...then that is a huge issue. I think THAT would be the biggest issue.
> 
> Anal is up in the air ( I personally think the men who cry about no anal should first TRY anal).
> 
> And 3somes are a BAD IDEA. Period.


I was a guy who back in my younger days was fascinated with anal. My ex and I tried it when we first got married and neither of us really liked it, probably because we had not prepared properly. A few years later we tried it again with special lubes and stuff and the second time she actually got off, but it did nothing for me. I thought it was anticlimactic. Dd nothing for me. But at least my ex was open and willing. I never had a problem with a prudish wife. She loved sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ladybird

Why do people have to complain, you should be happy with what you have. Your still having sex with your wife, right? Could be worse, I havent had sex in almost a year! You should be thankfull for what you have..


----------



## that_girl

Well, as much as that makes sense...it also suggests people just settle.

WHICH sometimes I think people should do because their problems are....well....not. But that's not for anyone to decide but themselves.

I do think our society has warped us in a sense of always being "happy". Damn.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Maybe you're just low drive. So finding someone low drive would be best.


Rather than being stuck low drive. Why not find out how to raise your drive up. Stress and lowered confidence can take your sex drive down.

You see, stress puts your attention on focus on the stressor. 

Find away to get addicted to sex again like in your youth, even if your wife will help you do this.

I'd hate to be stuck low drive.


----------



## that_girl

Some people are just low drive.

It's not something to feel shame about or try to fix.

You can't understand because you're HD.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Some people are just low drive.
> 
> It's not something to feel shame about or try to fix.
> 
> You can't understand because you're HD.


My HD is about 3x less than it used to be... It is more HD with someone who shares the flames with me. If someone does not, it cools me off and slows it down.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I can appreciate that the mind movies of her doing something with an ex she won't do with you could drive you nuts. The OP is certainly entitled to his feelings. 

For me the key would be why. There are different theories here: that she tried it before and decided she didn't like it, it's uncomfortable now at her advanced age, she was more turned on by the 'bad boys' in the past...etc. It's all supposition. 

I simply can't imagine a woman choosing not to engage in something she enjoys. There has to be something about it that makes it no longer appealing. 

Finding out I simply didn't turn her on enough would be a deal breaker for me. Finding out it would hurt her physically or emotionally to engage in these acts would not be.


----------



## Miss Taken

There are things I did with my current spouse before our separation that I wouldn't do NOW with him or with a new spouse. I was his own private little slvt before he cheated on me, believing that I needed to do whatever in bed lest he cheat. Well, he still cheated despite me doing and faking well, my utmost enjoyment for those things. Things that I didn't like, didn't want, didn't enjoy or even hurt me physically, mentally or emotionally. 

So, that was then, this is now. Now I only engage in sexual acts that are enjoyable for the both of us. If he doesn't like it, he can cheat or not cheat or he can leave or I'll leave. He didn't appreciate the lengths I'd go before to please him and that ship has sailed. Tough titties for him.

If this reconciliation doesn't work out and I date or marry someone new, and he expects me to do some of the things I've done in bed with my spouse that I didn't like I'd show him the door. I have better boundaries for myself than that to subjugate or prostrate myself like that again.


----------



## treyvion

MaritimeGuy said:


> I can appreciate that the mind movies of her doing something with an ex she won't do with you could drive you nuts. The OP is certainly entitled to his feelings.
> 
> For me the key would be why. There are different theories here: that she tried it before and decided she didn't like it, it's uncomfortable now at her advanced age, she was more turned on by the 'bad boys' in the past...etc. It's all supposition.
> 
> I simply can't imagine a woman choosing not to engage in something she enjoys. There has to be something about it that makes it no longer appealing.


The point on these particular slants was that the wife simply disqualified you from a certain amount of penetration into her sexual likes. It may because you are marginalized due to the ex's.



MaritimeGuy said:


> Finding out I simply didn't turn her on enough would be a deal breaker for me. Finding out it would hurt her physically or emotionally to engage in these acts would not be.


Yeah. It's something you can live with.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Lila said:


> I would agree with everything except introducing other people into our sex lives (yes, I had the threesomes) and anything I don't find enjoyable now. Like I said, the OP's top three activities were anal, bdsm, and threesomes. They are all higher risk activities than standard oral sex and PIV sex.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



looks like the OP has been gone from TAM for about 6 months. some of us - including some of his supporters, like me - posed some questions to him to better understand his situation. what I recall is that he chose to ignore almost every one of these.

He mentioned he wanted a threesome as one of the things she refuses (haven't reread his posts)? if so he is _way_ offbase on that one. that is not simply a "did that with him why not me" thing. That is asking her for an open marriage........ridiculous!


----------



## Deejo

I recognize that this dynamic exists, and it makes me shudder.

We have seen a number of threads about women in new, loving relationships or brides to be that believe they have found 'the one' and they take sex off the table. Only to have their partner discover that prior to their relationship, she had no problem expressing herself sexually.

Bad juju.

We've also had numerous men post their very real anguish and struggle with the concept of retroactive jealousy.

I'm sorry you feel belittled by your spouse. Especially in the context of others that your husband has been intimate with.

I function off of a very simple premise. I am absolutely the best sex my partner has ever had ... at least until they, or I, move onto to another sexual partner. 

Rinse, repeat.

I don't care about history. I don't care about what you've done. I care about what you are willing to joyfully and enthusiastically do, with me.

And if you don't like it or can't do it? That's ok.

But I won't be staying. Wish you the best.




techmom said:


> Comparing affection and some sex act like anal sex does not make sense to me. They are 2 separate things. If the wife still likes to do whatever sex act but doesn't want to do them with with hubby, then maybe she sees hubby as a person who interacts with her everyday and doesn't want to share that side of herself with him.
> 
> Sometimes people don't feel comfortable sharing in sex acts which they view as dirty with a person who they want to show their best side to. It is like the mystery of why some girls do all of the nasty sex acts with boys who they will never see again and hold off on the guy who they really would like to marry. Some women are trained from girlhood in the "good girls don't enjoy sex" school of thought.
> 
> I know of a couple of women who were wild with guys, then when they found the guy who they wanted to marry they held off from having sex for a while. This is so they won't be perceived as a *****, even though they were wild with guys who they would never think about getting in a true relationship with. Men are not immune from this kind of thinking either, because they talk about the girl to have fun with and the girl you marry and bring home to mom.
> 
> We, as a society, are still not accustomed to the truly sexually liberated woman who would not feel like she can't act like her true sexual self with the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with. We play these games so we can be valued and not thrown away by the guy we love, so we hold off and act virginal. Centuries of sexual supression of women and religion is to blame for this. Only within the last 10 years have we been trying to stem the tide of this dynamic, probably as a result of sexless marriages.
> 
> Personally, I waited until marriage to have sex, so I avoided having to supress past sexual experiences because there were none to speak of. Unfortunately, as my luck would have it, my hubby came with HIS past experiences and things he wanted to do and his views of how my sexual response should be. So I'm dealing with similar crap, he compares me to those girls from his past. And not in a good way.


----------



## Thor

nogutsnoglory said:


> yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.





Lila said:


> Just to make sure that we're all discussing the same thing....
> 
> According to the OP, he found out about his wife's previous experiences when he, his wife, and his wife's bff were hanging out drinking. The bff got drunk and let it slip that the wife had done some "interesting" things before meeting him. The OP put 2+2 together. It's not like the wife was sitting around reminiscing fondly about her time before him.


Go ahead, inject facts into a good thread! 

I think OP said somewhere that his wife was fondly recalling the past events. Without going through all 60+ pages of this thread, I found this post by OP on page 3. 



nogutsnoglory said:


> yeah, I guess that is why I posted that this is something she has said she previously enjoyed. It is not disgusting to her, just in the past. She has already done it enough and doesn't have the need any more. My need does not appear to count. So in fact she is with holding something I want, that is not disgusting to her.


What I think is important in the OP's case is that 
1) She lied to him about what she had done in the past when he asked her. 
2) She had told a girlfriend about these past wild exploits, which implies she still thinks fondly about those times. 
3) She currently says she enjoyed doing those things back then (she wasn't forced into those acts at the time)
4) She says she does not find the acts disgusting currently, she simply has no desire to do them with her husband.

All those factors add up to her not having nearly as much sexual desire for her husband as for her previous lovers.

To me it would be completely different if she were to say she didn't enjoy them at the time or that for a reasonable cause she finds them unpleasant now. Maybe she tried anal back then and didn't like it, or it is unpleasant today to do it. Fine, it is not something hubby should expect from her now. But that is not the case according to her own words.

I also think OP is unreasonable in expecting things which may be unhealthy, such as bringing a 3rd person into their bedroom. This is one of those things which might still be interesting to think about and which was fun for his wife to do when single, but when married it is a bad idea.

OP seemed to want to do these things to claim his territory or to make his wife submit to him. I don't think OP was approaching this issue from a healthy position.


----------



## that_girl

We didn't hear from HER. We heard from her through HIM.

God knows what was really said. If she truly is shoving this in his face in a "Well, I'm just not interested in doing these things with YOU..." then he needs to rethink things.

But I wonder what her side is...


----------



## bandit.45

that_girl said:


> We didn't hear from HER. We heard from her through HIM.
> 
> God knows what was really said. If she truly is shoving this in his face in a "Well, I'm just not interested in doing these things with YOU..." then he needs to rethink things.
> 
> But I wonder what her side is...


True. He could be hung like a Clydesdale and her bottom is off limits to him. Some guys are just too big.


----------



## davecarter

treyvion said:


> Rather than being stuck low drive. Why not find out how to raise your drive up. Stress and lowered confidence can take your sex drive down.
> 
> You see, stress puts your attention on focus on the stressor.
> 
> Find away to get addicted to sex again like in your youth, even if your wife will help you do this.
> 
> I'd hate to be stuck low drive.


Ummm....it's more like..._'I can't be bothered'_.


----------



## WyshIknew

that_girl said:


> We didn't hear from HER. We heard from her through HIM.
> 
> God knows what was really said. If she truly is shoving this in his face in a "Well, I'm just not interested in doing these things with YOU..." then he needs to rethink things.
> 
> But I wonder what her side is...





bandit.45 said:


> True. He could be hung like a Clydesdale and her bottom is off limits to him. Some guys are just too big.


One of the problems with the original thread was that the OP posted in dribs and drabs. He'd drop something into the thread then wait and then drop something else in. We just don't know the whole story.


----------



## that_girl

And size does matter when talking about the butt.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> And size does matter when talking about the butt.


You want the longest and thickest object?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Lila said:


> You're right, no one wants to feel like their spouse "settled" for them but basing that judgement on only one element of a marriage, in this case the wife denying the hubby her pre-hubby kinky sexual side, is incredibly narrow minded.
> 
> Men say that sexual compatibility is important in a marriage but it's also one of a growing list of attributes they require to be happy. *There are so many others including respect, shared goals, interest in their lives*, etc... (see thread What Makes a Man Feel Loved, True?).
> 
> The thing that surprises me is the posts telling the OP to leave his wife over this. What about considering all of the other great qualities that drew these two together in the first place? *We don't have to be #1 at every aspect in marriage, but we do have to come out on top overall*.



makes sense but, what is interesting, is that I don't believe this is how most husbands think. yes I think they like to think of themselves as their wife's overal #1. kinda like a gold medal decathlete that doesn't win every event but still surpasses all in total points. but if one makes a long list of a wife's assessment of her husband in a number of important categories - 

emotional connection
intellect
responsibility
*sexual attraction*
career ambition
(etc)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. 
then yes I would want to be the overall #1. But I would also want to be #1 in the bolded category. In fact, I confess, it would be more important to me to be #1 in that particular category than #1 overall! knida crazy really, but I think that's how most of us are.

if you know you're her #1 in that category, then I really think all things are possible........e.g him being OK with dropping his request for act X if she really doesn't want to, less frequent sex than he would like (within reason), adding act Y that she really likes but him not so much etc.
It is when he gets the idea from her, through any means, that he is not or will never be her #1 in that category - that is what can kill everything.


----------



## Lyris

I think probably the other men were sexier and better in bed


----------



## treyvion

Lyris said:


> I think probably the other men were sexier and better in bed


Possibly true, not necessarily.


----------



## Thundarr

chillymorn said:


> the problem as I see it is......if she isn't doing what you like sexually and you find out that she did them in the past then theres your answer. shes just not that into you! you can discuss all you want but the bottom line is she should want to be a good lover for her husband and if she has an indifferent attitude about it then shes just a *****,after your stability and not really desirous of you. once that cats out of the bag I don't think you can stuff it back in.


chillymorn, you brought back a zombie and then breathed life into it.


----------



## WyshIknew

Thing is, I don't really know how I would feel I suppose. As far as I know there is nothing she's done that we haven't done. Some wheres but no whats.

And to be honest I'm too busy giving her a good seeing to to worry about what she might have done.


----------



## lifeistooshort

And this thread, friends, is just one of the reasons you don't discuss details of your exes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

lifeistooshort said:


> And this thread, friends, is just one of the reasons you don't discuss details of your exes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the conventional wisdom. However, guys will look for clues if you are not straight up with them. They are much more likely to find clues that they are not number 1 or even 2 or 3 (even if they really are). While not as bad as direct proof, still very bad. And being caught in a lie is worst of all.


----------



## Thundarr

This is a topic about intrusive thoughts and "what if" thinking. Best to avoid that.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

I think guys would want to get those details and search for those clues from their girlfriends BEFORE they make the decision to marry them. Probably easier said than done though.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Lyris said:


> I think probably the other men were sexier and better in bed


Why? Was that your experience?
(Just a tweek is all.  )


----------



## treyvion

nuclearnightmare said:


> Why? Was that your experience?
> (Just a tweek is all.  )


She said it like each and every one of them where and that's not likely. But in her mind, if she has marginalized her husband, each of her one night stand and gang bang exploits will supercede him.


----------



## Lyris

treyvion said:


> She said it like each and every one of them where and that's not likely. But in her mind, if she has marginalized her husband, each of her one night stand and gang bang exploits will supercede him.


Yes my husband will never live up to my many many gang bang exploits. Of which there are many. Sigh, those were the days. Those days when I was an imaginary porn star. 

I sensibly married the sexiest and best-in-bed man I encountered. So for me the question is academic.


----------



## bandit.45

Personal said:


> That's what my wife and I were thinking.


I say again....she's not into him sexually. 

The hard truth is that some women can completely compartmentalize sex from love.

I think OP's wife loves him dearly and wants no other as a husband and companion. But that doesn't mean she is sexually attracted to him.


----------



## that_girl

Because of no 3some or anal? LOL Stop it.

Maybe for bjs I'll believe that...but not the other two.


----------



## Lyris

You're such a prude that_girl. The more attracted I am to someone, the more people I want to *root in their company.

*charming Australianism for the sexual act


----------



## Personal

Lyris said:


> You're such a prude that_girl.


At least you both have a great sense of humour.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. I'm such a prude.

I should see if my ex girlfriend ...the woman that I was dating when my husband and I were separated (he knew) wants to have a threesome. lmao. Ew.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I agree that it CAN mean she's just not that into him.

So if that's the case, what are you going to do, punish someone for life because they aren't into you? Or decide you want someone who is into you and move on?

And if you stay, what point is there in hating her for not being that into you? Who do you think this benefits? You're the one staying and you're the one hating so why stay in an atmosphere of hatred and yet b*tch about it like you have no choice?

It isn't her choice NOT to be into him, it just is what it is. Whereas it IS his choice to leave or stay.

Whenever you finally decide to leave and get some therapy, you'll realize that you are the one who had issues, if you stayed with someone and hated THEM for it.


----------



## davecarter

bandit.45 said:


> I say again....she's not into him sexually.
> 
> The hard truth is that some women can completely compartmentalize sex from love.
> 
> I think OP's wife loves him dearly and wants no other as a husband and companion. But that doesn't mean she is sexually attracted to him.


Agreed.

And furthermore, my current-gf is exactly one of those women who separates love from sex.

Qute how this will affect us as a couple in the future...dunno. :scratchhead:


----------



## treyvion

Lyris said:


> You're such a prude that_girl. The more attracted I am to someone, the more people I want to *root in their company.
> 
> *charming Australianism for the sexual act


"rooting"


----------



## that_girl

davecarter said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And furthermore, my current-gf is exactly one of those women who separates love from sex.
> 
> Qute how this will affect us as a couple in the future...dunno. :scratchhead:


She'll just need to be emotionally fulfilled.

I am such a woman. I don't need sex to love someone. I don't need to love someone to have sex.

Men do this all the time. They don't love everyone they eff. Somehow that's ok? But when a woman can love without sex, that's bad? Eh. If you take care of her as a person (basically be a BFF) she'll take care of you in the bedroom. At least that's how I am.


----------



## Thor

nuclearnightmare said:


> .
> then yes I would want to be the overall #1. But I would also want to be #1 in the bolded category.


And to further dissect it, a man can be #1 in the sex partner category yet not be the best at every sex act. He may not be the biggest, or he may not be the strongest (and thus can't do the gymnastic positions). But overall he wants to be the best she's had, and he wants her to desire him more than she desired (or still desires) other men.


----------



## davecarter

that_girl said:


> She'll just need to be emotionally fulfilled.
> 
> I am such a woman. I don't need sex to love someone. I don't need to love someone to have sex.
> 
> Men do this all the time. They don't love everyone they eff. Somehow that's ok? But when a woman can love without sex, that's bad? Eh. If you take care of her as a person (basically be a BFF) she'll take care of you in the bedroom. At least that's how I am.


That much is true...and thus far, 100%

We talked about it this morning. I asked her generally, what her sex-drive/libido was like and she basically said it differs with each guy she is with and went into detail about it.

Like I said earlier, her last bf (_who was a Badboy 101_) just used her for 18 months, cheated on her and put her down, but...kept her hooked by ragging the ass off her sexually throughout.
She admitted the entire 'relationship' was based on, usually, kinky and _really _rough sex.

Other boyfriends, she said, not nearly as much. Just _"okay, nice but nothing mind-blowing"._
With her, I obviously fit into the latter category, even though I've been into kinky-no-vanilla stuff with other women before....I don't seem to be able to with my current. :scratchhead:

(the Badboy #'101 is trying to get back with her after his shortlived marriage failed early this year, so I often ask her if he has emailled / texted her and she confirms he has and often, but stresses she feels nothing for him anymore.)


----------



## that_girl

The "great sex" with the badboy is basically constant hysterical bonding.


----------



## Thor

that_girl said:


> The "great sex" with the badboy is basically constant hysterical bonding.


That is a fascinating take on the Bad Boy topic. I am intrigued. Is your opinion or if there is some book or other reference for it. The idea does seem to fit in a lot of ways.


----------



## that_girl

Well, just in experience and hearing LOTS of women talk about the "bad boy" they are dating and the great sex.

Of course it's great sex. He's a jerk. She's constantly trying to bond. He is in and out and aloof. The "cool guy". lol.

Hysterical bonding fits...no? And it's throughout the whole relationship...if he actually committed and settled down, he'd no longer be the bad boy and sex may not be so good. Amazing sex because you don't know the status of the relationship but you THINK he's committing more...blah blah.

No studies. Sorry  Just what I've come to realize.


----------



## Thor

that_girl said:


> Well, just in experience and hearing LOTS of women talk about the "bad boy" they are dating and the great sex.
> 
> Of course it's great sex. He's a jerk. She's constantly trying to bond. He is in and out and aloof. The "cool guy". lol.
> 
> Hysterical bonding fits...no? And it's throughout the whole relationship...if he actually committed and settled down, he'd no longer be the bad boy and sex may not be so good. Amazing sex because you don't know the status of the relationship but you THINK he's committing more...blah blah.
> 
> No studies. Sorry  Just what I've come to realize.


It totally makes sense from what I've seen. It seems to fit my wife's history, too. You should write a book on your theory, and make million$!


----------



## that_girl

Ha! I should.


----------



## I Don't Know

Brilliant TG!

How does this translate though? Does it mean the sex WAS great or that it SEEMED great? Or does it even matter? 

If your theory is correct, what does it mean for the guy(s) after the hysterical bonding bad boy?


----------



## treyvion

I Don't Know said:


> Brilliant TG!
> 
> How does this translate though? Does it mean the sex WAS great or that it SEEMED great? Or does it even matter?
> 
> If your theory is correct, what does it mean for the guy(s) after the hysterical bonding bad boy?


As long as you treat her like they did you will be ok....


----------



## WyshIknew

I Don't Know said:


> Brilliant TG!
> 
> How does this translate though? Does it mean the sex WAS great or that it SEEMED great? Or does it even matter?
> 
> If your theory is correct, what does it mean for the guy(s) after the hysterical bonding bad boy?


I think it means that a lot of sex is in the head.

(The big head.)


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

davecarter said:


> That much is true...and thus far, 100%
> 
> We talked about it this morning. I asked her generally, what her sex-drive/libido was like and she basically said it differs with each guy she is with and went into detail about it.
> 
> Like I said earlier, her last bf (_who was a Badboy 101_) just used her for 18 months, cheated on her and put her down, but...kept her hooked by ragging the ass off her sexually throughout.
> She admitted the entire 'relationship' was based on, usually, kinky and _really _rough sex.
> 
> Other boyfriends, she said, not nearly as much. Just _"okay, nice but nothing mind-blowing"._
> With her, I obviously fit into the latter category, even though I've been into kinky-no-vanilla stuff with other women before....I don't seem to be able to with my current. :scratchhead:
> 
> (the Badboy #'101 is trying to get back with her after his shortlived marriage failed early this year, so I often ask her if he has emailled / texted her and she confirms he has and often, but stresses she feels nothing for him anymore.)


If you basically fall into the "okay, but not mind blowing sex" with this current GF, then I'd start looking for a replacement. It sounds similar to the infidelity you experienced with your XWW, who fell for a badboy. 

I'd start considering changing where you are meeting women, because you seem to be hooking up with the wrong type. Or, maybe you are naturally attracted to women that you know are not good for you.


----------



## bandit.45

WyshIknew said:


> I think it means that a lot of sex is in the head.
> 
> (The big head.)


George Clinton said "Free your mind and your ass will follow".

You can take that truth and say " Make love to,a woman's mind first and her body will follow".


----------



## I Don't Know

treyvion said:


> As long as you treat her like they did you will be ok....


Well maybe a balance. They are X's for a reason afterall.


----------



## davecarter

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you basically fall into the "okay, but not mind blowing sex" with this current GF, then I'd start looking for a replacement. It sounds similar to the infidelity you experienced with your XWW, who fell for a badboy.
> 
> I'd start considering changing where you are meeting women, because you seem to be hooking up with the wrong type.  Or, maybe you are naturally attracted to women that you know are not good for you.


Don't agree with you, 100%..but the underlined part, yeah...but I can't help that.
I need 'edgy' women to stimulate me.
My current woman doesn't, but she's fantastic in every other way - definatelty a 'keeper' and not a cheater at all...


----------



## chillymorn

davecarter said:


> Don't agree with you, 100%..but the underlined part, yeah...but I can't help that.
> I need 'edgy' women to stimulate me.
> My current woman doesn't, but she's fantastic in every other way - definatelty a 'keeper' and not a cheater at all...


your settling. how would your girlfriend feel if after a long time with you that you settled and that she really doesn't stimulate you?


----------



## where_are_we

chillymorn said:


> your settling. how would your girlfriend feel if after a long time with you that you settled and that she really doesn't stimulate you?


I know this was not directed at me. But, I did the same thing. I think we all settle in some respects. I am sure there are things about us that our partners settled for as well. I periodically go through phases where I wish I had more thrill in the sex dept. If I found myself single again I would place higher priority on this aspect because I have learned the hard way that you cannot make someone else change their sexual likes/dislikes. Only YOU can meet them where they are at.


----------



## davecarter

chillymorn said:


> your settling. how would your girlfriend feel if after a long time with you that you settled and that she really doesn't stimulate you?


I think it's a double-edged sword. When I say 'stimulate', I meant from a 'drama' PoV.
Women who are a challenge, interest me...however, at my age, Im kind of thinking I need stability rather than anything.

Quite often, my current gf says to me _"You'll leave me...because you'll get bored or me"_ - and she's 32, I'm 47!!


----------



## Jetranger

On a related note, Viz (the British adult comic) did a ‘Profanisaurus’ of rude terms and expressions. One was “Fridge Magnet”, a man whose subsequent girlfriends are a source of sexual disappointment. “Claire won’t take it fudgeways either. What am I, a fridge magnet?”

I can’t help but compare my current partner to ones from the past. If she won’t do things I grew to enjoy it’s bad (think of all the guys here thinking they might never get a BJ ever again), but knowing she used to do them for other guys is even worse.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Thor said:


> And to further dissect it, a man can be #1 in the sex partner category yet not be the best at every sex act. He may not be the biggest, or he may not be the strongest (and thus can't do the gymnastic positions). But overall he wants to be the best she's had, and *he wants her to desire him more than she desired (or still desires) other men*.



bolded is what I'm talking about. Skill not as important IMO because skills can be easily improved ala "practice makes perfect." T


----------



## treyvion

nuclearnightmare said:


> bolded is what I'm talking about. Skill not as important IMO because skills can be easily improved ala "practice makes perfect." T


Just keep doing it and take all the rules and restrictions out...


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

This is what I think I have learned from 2 bad marriages. I know this is not all, but I think this describes many women. Women, much more than men, tend to see things in terms of *relationship*. They fit you inyo a box based on your role in their lives. The OP is the dependable loving type and she wants to relate to him in that role. So, what role does a bad boy fill. He is strong and goes for what he wants, He makes her feel desired on a physical level and that turns her on. He forces her, by the strength of his passion, to surrender herself, to release her inhibitions, and to experience sex on a primal level. She will do what he asks because he cannot be resisted. He will please himself so she is free to think only of herself. The dependable loving guy can never take her there because he is sensitive and would never force her. And she would never expose him to the sexual animal she was forced to be (she knows she wasn't forced by anything beyond her passion but it feels better to think she that was beyond her control). What would be good for men in relationships with these women, would be an ability to switch between those roles. She might allow that in a role play game but probably not.


----------



## homedepot

ladybird said:


> Why do people have to complain, you should be happy with what you have. Your still having sex with your wife, right? Could be worse, I havent had sex in almost a year! You should be thankfull for what you have..




If we all felt like that then there would be know need for this site


----------



## homedepot

I will say that three some may be weird as you get older. But to take anal off the table is crazy. Unless your butt prolapsed or sum crap it should at least be attempted if you was a prior anal freak.


----------



## treyvion

homedepot said:


> I will say that three some may be weird as you get older. But to take anal off the table is crazy. Unless your butt prolapsed or sum crap it should at least be attempted if you was a prior anal freak.


What does "prolapsed" mean? That it lost it's structurial integrity and fell outside the body?

Why would someone keep wanting to do it until they prolapsed?


----------



## that_girl

Yes. Anal prolapse is when the rectum and maybe some intestines, falls out through the anus.

My friend's son had it because of a weak muscle...he had surgery and seems to be fine. She had to push it back in all day.

But this can happen to people in regards to anal sex. Not always, but it happens.


----------



## that_girl

homedepot said:


> I will say that three some may be weird as you get older. But to take anal off the table is crazy. Unless your butt prolapsed or sum crap it should at least be attempted if you was a prior anal freak.


lol ....Why would a 3some be weird just because someone is older?

And if it hurts her to poop (you probably wouldn't get this because you haven't given birth. But maybe you have hems so you could understand)...but if it hurts to poop, it will hurt to eff.


----------



## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Yes. Anal prolapse is when the rectum and maybe some intestines, falls out through the anus.
> 
> My friend's son had it because of a weak muscle...he had surgery and seems to be fine. She had to push it back in all day.
> 
> But this can happen to people in regards to anal sex. Not always, but it happens.


What a risk. I imagine the structural "mooring" around the canal which holds it in place gets knocked loose. Dangerous,
imagine having serious medical problems as a result of this activity or death or even near death?


----------



## that_girl

I can't even imagine. After my ordeal it won't be happening here!

Pregnancy weakens the muscles too.


----------



## homedepot

that_girl said:


> lol ....Why would a 3some be weird just because someone is older?
> 
> And if it hurts her to poop (you probably wouldn't get this because you haven't given birth. But maybe you have hems so you could understand)...but if it hurts to poop, it will hurt to eff.




When I think of 3 somes it takes me back to the 9th grade. So yea 25yrs later I would find it a lil weird to still be at it.

Sounds like you either had one or want one being older:smthumbup:


----------



## Cosmos

WyshIknew said:


> Ah this thread again.
> 
> This topic has come up from time to time and I never really know what to think.
> 
> On the one hand I can understand that someone could be hurt by this but on the other hand there are numerous other aspects to consider.
> 
> "You did it for other men but not for me." This assumes that everything she did with others, you want, you are entitled to it.
> 
> Do you get to pick and choose? A good, happy marriage is more than you just choosing where and how you stick your d1ck in her.
> 
> If you are entitled to do what she did with others is she entitled to expect you to do what others did with her too?
> 
> *What if she enjoyed MMMF? What if she enjoyed scat play or golden showers? What if she was a Furry? What if she enjoyed pegging  If you have a right to do what she did with others, does she have a right to expect you to do all of what she did? Do you get to pick and choose?
> 
> As mentioned, people do change and what may be enjoyable with one person may not be enjoyable with others.*
> 
> Also, I know it sucks to think about it but previous boyfriends may simply be more technically accomplished lovers than you are. I do the best I can but I'm sure I'm not some sexual god in bed.
> 
> I know this is an old thread so I am using a generic you.


Well said, Wysh.

I have to say, I've never been in a relationship with anybody who even _asked_ for intimate details of what I did with previous lovers, and I've never been _remotely _interested in what they did, either.

IMO, establishing that we have similar values and that we're sexually compatible is far more important.


----------



## that_girl

homedepot said:


> When I think of 3 somes it takes me back to the 9th grade. So yea 25yrs later I would find it a lil weird to still be at it.
> 
> Sounds like you either had one or want one being older:smthumbup:



No. I was just wondering why you thought older people can't do certain things. lol. We're sexual beings well into our golden years.


----------



## ariel_angel77

I know this thread is really old, so not sure if the OP still wants a woman's pov, but here's mine.

I totally see where you're coming from, and honestly, I would feel the exact same way. There is nothing that I tried with other guys that I wouldn't try with my husband. In fact, the drive to be closer to my H made me want to try even MORE with him than I tried with my exes. I can only see a woman not trying it again if she felt uncomfortable with doing it before and was forced into it or hated it, but I wouldn't understand in any other case.

I think marriage IS the place that's safe to explore all of your sexual desires. All of the kinky, crazy ones.

There's nothing you can do but tell her how you feel. Again I know this post is old and I'm not reading through all those pages lol but that's what I think.


----------



## Catherine602

SeekingEcstasy said:


> This is what I think I have learned from 2 bad marriages. I know this is not all, but I think this describes many women. Women, much more than men, tend to see things in terms of *relationship*. They fit you inyo a box based on your role in their lives. The OP is the dependable loving type and she wants to relate to him in that role. So, what role does a bad boy fill. He is strong and goes for what he wants, He makes her feel desired on a physical level and that turns her on. He forces her, by the strength of his passion, to surrender herself, to release her inhibitions, and to experience sex on a primal level. She will do what he asks because he cannot be resisted. He will please himself so she is free to think only of herself. The dependable loving guy can never take her there because he is sensitive and would never force her. And she would never expose him to the sexual animal she was forced to be (she knows she wasn't forced by anything beyond her passion but it feels better to think she that was beyond her control). What would be good for men in relationships with these women, would be an ability to switch between those roles. She might allow that in a role play game but probably not.


How about this.

Good girls get married and have kids. Bad girls are avoided like the plague and spend their lives in quite misery for enjoying their sexuality. Good = sexually repressed; bad = sexually uninhibited. Men select sexually repressed women to marry but they really want that wild crazy girl they would never have married. When his repressed wife is true to form, he blames the evil of women. Now he longs for the giving girl who had sex with him on the first date and enjoyed it. She did it because she found him sexually attractive and she liked him a lot. But she was dropped after a few more uses. 

Despite the fact that she may have been just what he was looking for, he let her go. Not marriage material. He finds a woman to marry who had no strong sexual attraction to him but he blames her for being the person he married. :scratchhead:

The girl who had sex on the first date - she got married to a guy she had sex with on the first date. He was smart enough to recognize her value as a person. He didn't devalue women who found him sexually attractive. 

Who did you marry in your two marriage? Good girls? Don't marry again. Date and change you jaded view of women. Accept that you made a free choice that was unwise and that your picker may be broken. Get it fixed and find a woman who is strongly attracted to you.


----------



## techmom

Catherine602 said:


> How about this.
> 
> Good girls get married and have kids. Bad girls are avoided like the plague and spend their lives in quite misery for enjoying their sexuality. Good = sexually repressed; bad = sexually uninhibited. Men select sexually repressed women to marry but they really want that wild crazy girl they would never have married. When his repressed wife is true to form, he blames the evil of women. Now he longs for the giving girl who had sex with him on the first date and enjoyed it. She did it because she found him found him sexually attractive and she liked him a lot. But she was dropped after a few more uses.
> 
> Despite the fact that she may have been just what he was looking for, he let her go. Not marriage material. He finds a woman to marry who had no strong sexual attraction to him but he blames her for being the person he married. :scratchhead:
> 
> The girl who had sex on the first date - she got married to a guy she had sex with on the first date. He was smart enough to recognize her value as a person. He didn't devalue women who found him sexually attractive.
> 
> Who did you marry in your two marriage? Good girls? Don't marry again. Date and change you jaded view of women. Accept that you made a free choice that was unwise and that your picker may be broken. Get it fixed and find a woman who is strongly attracted to you.


:iagree:Amen to this


----------



## lifeistooshort

Catherine602 said:


> How about this.
> 
> Good girls get married and have kids. Bad girls are avoided like the plague and spend their lives in quite misery for enjoying their sexuality. Good = sexually repressed; bad = sexually uninhibited. Men select sexually repressed women to marry but they really want that wild crazy girl they would never have married. When his repressed wife is true to form, he blames the evil of women. Now he longs for the giving girl who had sex with him on the first date and enjoyed it. She did it because she found him found him sexually attractive and she liked him a lot. But she was dropped after a few more uses.
> 
> Despite the fact that she may have been just what he was looking for, he let her go. Not marriage material. He finds a woman to marry who had no strong sexual attraction to him but he blames her for being the person he married. :scratchhead:
> 
> The girl who had sex on the first date - she got married to a guy she had sex with on the first date. He was smart enough to recognize her value as a person. He didn't devalue women who found him sexually attractive.
> 
> Who did you marry in your two marriage? Good girls? Don't marry again. Date and change you jaded view of women. Accept that you made a free choice that was unwise and that your picker may be broken. Get it fixed and find a woman who is strongly attracted to you.


Preach it sister!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

Catherine602 said:


> How about this.
> 
> Good girls get married and have kids. Bad girls are avoided like the plague and spend their lives in quite misery for enjoying their sexuality. Good = sexually repressed; bad = sexually uninhibited. Men select sexually repressed women to marry but they really want that wild crazy girl they would never have married. When his repressed wife is true to form, he blames the evil of women. Now he longs for the giving girl who had sex with him on the first date and enjoyed it. She did it because she found him found him sexually attractive and she liked him a lot. But she was dropped after a few more uses.


There are real "bad" girls. Ones who will hook you and bring them in around her group of male friends to be beaten down. Ones who will rob you. Ones who will set you up. Ones who will see what your worth, and be on you for her profit. Ones who will let her friends rob you. Ones who will send you forward to surely be killed.



Catherine602 said:


> Despite the fact that she may have been just what he was looking for, he let her go. Not marriage material. He finds a woman to marry who had no strong sexual attraction to him but he blames her for being the person he married. :scratchhead:
> 
> The girl who had sex on the first date - she got married to a guy she had sex with on the first date. He was smart enough to recognize her value as a person. He didn't devalue women who found him sexually attractive.
> 
> Who did you marry in your two marriage? Good girls? Don't marry again. Date and change you jaded view of women. Accept that you made a free choice that was unwise and that your picker may be broken. Get it fixed and find a woman who is strongly attracted to you.


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

Catherine602 said:


> How about this.
> 
> Good girls get married and have kids. Bad girls are avoided like the plague and spend their lives in quite misery for enjoying their sexuality. Good = sexually repressed; bad = sexually uninhibited. Men select sexually repressed women to marry but they really want that wild crazy girl they would never have married. When his repressed wife is true to form, he blames the evil of women. Now he longs for the giving girl who had sex with him on the first date and enjoyed it. She did it because she found him found him sexually attractive and she liked him a lot. But she was dropped after a few more uses.
> 
> Despite the fact that she may have been just what he was looking for, he let her go. Not marriage material. He finds a woman to marry who had no strong sexual attraction to him but he blames her for being the person he married. :scratchhead:
> 
> The girl who had sex on the first date - she got married to a guy she had sex with on the first date. He was smart enough to recognize her value as a person. He didn't devalue women who found him sexually attractive.
> 
> Who did you marry in your two marriage? Good girls? Don't marry again. Date and change you jaded view of women. Accept that you made a free choice that was unwise and that your picker may be broken. Get it fixed and find a woman who is strongly attracted to you.


Actually, my first marriage was to my HS sweetheart. We were both the only ones for each other. I divorced her to avoid financial ruin, becase she became more and more sexually repressed over time, and because, I could no longer trust her. 
My second wife was a wild girl when we dated. She did anything and everything and didn't deny me anything. That started changing as soon as the vows were exchanged. Being wild is not what married people do, in her mind. If I had known I would not have married again. 
You see, I love excitment, like taking mountain turns on two wheels, having sex in places and at times when I shouldn't, and having a wife that ever guy in the room gets a hard-on for. But I want to share everything and be truthful with one another. If we are out socially and an ex is there, I want to know enough about their history that I can handle whatever comes up. I'm not jealous if I know that I'm not being denied and I feel like her number one. So, give me the wild girl that puts me first and makes me know it.


----------



## treyvion

Catherine602 said:


> You sound like a 20 yo frat boy. With two marriages I think you should have grown up by now.
> 
> Just to give you a perspective. I am married to a man that I have known since we were kids. He is the 2nd man I had sex with and the first was was not a relationship. I did not have a wild period and I did not have a serious bf until my husband. So my take is purely observation of friends and relatives and colleagues. I am not myself expeienced. I also get a lot from posts on Tam.
> 
> With that, let me tell you something. Don't judge a woman for a relationship based on sex, good or bad. Don't tell a woman what you require of her sexually. Just be there and see what happens. Any woman who is of age and dating knows what men are looking for. They know it down to the last swallow. They know it better than you. Sex can get better or worse. That depends on you. The decisions you make and the way you treat women.
> 
> Always ask yourself when a woman is willing to do anything you want. Why? You know that you are not special and you didn't do anything to deserve such a service so why. All adult relatuionships are an exchange of satisfactions. If you are getting more than you put in you are racking up a deficit that you will have to pay. If not with this woman then with another. When I say you are not special I mean you are not entitled to something for nothing. If you are among the men who announce what makes them slaves and feel they are entitled, the expect to be manipulated and disappointed.
> 
> Never show all of your cards and never run up a debt that you don't keep tabs on. Men are not entitled to an exciting sex life. That makes some men livid. But if your smart you will stay calm. If you don't feel entitied, you can be realistic and decerning. You can ask what is expected of me and can I provide it. If not, then walk away. You can walk away if you know that you are not entitled to be served by women and you give as much as you get.
> 
> Do you know that the same woman will have different sex lives with different men? Some men inspire loyalty, respect and good sex. If a woman is reasonably stable she will respond positively to a man that sees her as more than a source of pleasure that he wants easy access to. She will have different sex life with the same man in a LTR. If he grows from a self- centered immature sexuality into a mature sexuality she will repond. Many men never do they. They remain a 22 yo all their lives. When you are entitled you neither inspire or appreciate. If you think about it, you give nothing and get nothing.
> 
> Smart men know they are not entitied. They respect women and let a relationship develops naturally without expecting the earth to move every night. Be that kind of man. Be calm, observent and humble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think many guys will attest that your vision sounds idealistic, but that most of us had it up front even if it wasn't acted upon. It's more rare to develop this slowly growing smoldering fire, than to have it from the very start.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> You sound like a 20 yo frat boy. With two marriages I think you should have grown up by now.
> 
> Just to give you a perspective. I am married to a man that I have known since we were kids. He is the 2nd man I had sex with and the first was was not a relationship. I did not have a wild period and I did not have a serious bf until my husband. So my take is purely observation of friends and relatives and colleagues. I am not myself expeienced. I also get a lot from posts on Tam.
> 
> With that, let me tell you something. Don't judge a woman for a relationship based on sex, good or bad. Don't tell a woman what you require of her sexually. Just be there and see what happens. Any woman who is of age and dating knows what men are looking for. They know it down to the last swallow. They know it better than you. Sex can get better or worse. That depends on you. The decisions you make and the way you treat women.
> 
> Always ask yourself when a woman is willing to do anything you want. Why? You know that you are not special and you didn't do anything to deserve such a service so why. All adult relatuionships are an exchange of satisfactions. If you are getting more than you put in you are racking up a deficit that you will have to pay. If not with this woman then with another. When I say you are not special I mean you are not entitled to something for nothing. If you are among the men who announce what makes them slaves and feel they are entitled, the expect to be manipulated and disappointed.
> 
> Never show all of your cards and never run up a debt that you don't keep tabs on. Men are not entitled to an exciting sex life. That makes some men livid. But if your smart you will stay calm. If you don't feel entitied, you can be realistic and decerning. You can ask what is expected of me and can I provide it. If not, then walk away. You can walk away if you know that you are not entitled to be served by women and you give as much as you get.
> 
> Do you know that the same woman will have different sex lives with different men? Some men inspire loyalty, respect and good sex. If a woman is reasonably stable she will respond positively to a man that sees her as more than a source of pleasure that he wants easy access to. She will have different sex life with the same man in a LTR. If he grows from a self- centered immature sexuality into a mature sexuality she will repond. Many men never do they. They remain a 22 yo all their lives. When you are entitled you neither inspire or appreciate. If you think about it, you give nothing and get nothing.
> 
> Smart men know they are not entitied. They respect women and let a relationship develops naturally without expecting the earth to move every night. Be that kind of man. Be calm, observent and humble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Entitled" is a pejorative term. Both men and women should feel they are deserving of both emotional and physical intimacy of a certain quality. They have to be willing to end relationships, including marriages, that lack of these. ...and continue to look for them elsewhere.


----------



## Catherine602

treyvion said:


> I think many guys will attest that your vision sounds idealistic, but that most of us had it up front even if it wasn't acted upon. It's more rare to develop this slowly growing smoldering fire, than to have it from the very start.


It may be because I have not lived it. But to some degree it is true. Everything is idealistic. That instant attraction you think is so important, that's idealistic. The expectation that it will never change is idealistic. The reliance on contractual covenants to guide behavior is idealistic, no? 

Love and attraction can grow but it depends the determination and commitment of the people involved. In general, this culture does not support a deep sense of commitment or the growth of strong bonds between men and woman. There is too much friction, distrust and even hatred. Everything seems transient, shallow, selfish and pleasure driven. There are subcultures that still hold onto the good strong values. 

It depends on what is important to people. Life can be rich, varied and challenging. It's too complex to boil it down to "If I don't get this I will walk away because I am entitled to blah blah". There are some other commitments and entitlements that are more important - the lives of the innocent souls you made come into the world. 

My husband says that I am naive, and I would be eaten alive if he was not around to protect me.  I don't think so. There is nothing wrong with being an idealistic realist.


----------



## SeekingEcstasy

I'm certainly glad you are happy with your situation. But you are reacting to a thread that is about sex as if the people responding consider that to be the biggest part of a relationship. It is certainly not true and I don't assume it is for people here.
You reflect a point of view that I think many women have about sex. That is, "I have what you want and it is up to you to behave in a way that I'll give it to you." Well, that point of view lasts about a minute with me because I would feel like you can keep it for the chump that will be treated like that. I have plenty to give myself. How are you going to behave to get it. 
My emphysis is relationship. If you want a marriage relationship with someone you should be willing to provide EVERYTHING that person needs in a relationship, period. If you can't do that, let it be known so you can both move on.
It is a two way street and I have always busted my butt to provide what my SO needed. That is, until she decides that she will not do the same. Then the spiral starts.
I'll give an example. My second always wanted a big house with curved stairs in the foyer, a really big commercial kitchen, large master suite and lots of style. I told her we could start looking but I wanted a detached shop I could use for my many hobbies, a media room, and a game room in the basement. As time went on, she thought we didnt need a game room and media room. It would allow more money for the kitchen. I agreed to make that sacrifice, Then, we could just put the media equipment in a multipurpose area that we could use for that and hobbies. We really shouldn't put a noisy shop in a nice neighborhood. I said, "So you get all you want and I get 15%.". She pointed out how impracticle that other 85% was and how the house wasn't really important to men anyway. We never got that new house, we both felt deprived, and things got worse on every front.
I have tended to try to hang on way longer that I should. During a marriage counciling session (first marriage) the therapist told me that I could get along with anyone because I try too hard. But even though I try to hang on, things are spirialing down. I'm just looking for a place I can grab on and stop it where it is. But finally, I saw how unhealthy that was for me.
So, yes it is important that a wife be just as wild as her husband needs. It is also important that he give her what she needs. They both have responsibilities to the other, physically, emotionally, financially, and every other way two people can relate. It is not for the lazy or selfish.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Faithful Wife said:


> noguts said: "I feel hurt that I am rejected and do not understand."
> 
> I get that. But your wife isn't responsible for YOUR feelings. No one is.
> 
> I understand it hurts.
> 
> That still isn't your wife's fault.
> 
> Some men would NOT CARE.
> 
> So this isn't something that any and all men would feel or think. It is your personal demon. Which I'm not trying to minimize...yet it is still YOURS and yours alone to deal with.


This is like saying I cheated in my spouse and I can see their hurt...but its their feelings and I'm not responsible for their emotions that is their problem. The emotional wellbeing of your spouse is a christian duty...your bodies belong to each other...do not with hold but for a time with both agreeing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> It may be because I have not lived it. But to some degree it is true. Everything is idealistic. That instant attraction you think is so important, that's idealistic. The expectation that it will never change is idealistic. The reliance on contractual covenants to guide behavior is idealistic, no?
> 
> Love and attraction can grow but it depends the determination and commitment of the people involved. In general, this culture does not support a deep sense of commitment or the growth of strong bonds between men and woman. There is too much friction, distrust and even hatred.* Everything seems transient, shallow, selfish and pleasure driven*. There are subcultures that still hold onto the good strong values.
> 
> It depends on what is important to people. Life can be rich, varied and challenging. It's too complex to boil it down to "If I don't get this I will walk away because I am entitled to blah blah". There are some other commitments and entitlements that are more important - the lives of the innocent souls you made come into the world.
> 
> My husband says that I am naive, and I would be eaten alive if he was not around to protect me.  I don't think so. There is nothing wrong with being an idealistic realist.


:iagree:

(bolded especially)


----------



## treyvion

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> (bolded especially)


But shouldn't we expect pleasure with our significant other, especially if it's important to us. It probably shouldn't be the very top consideration, but it should be up in the top 5 for people who think it's important.


----------



## Jellybeans

that_girl said:


> No. I was just wondering why you thought older people can't do certain things. lol. We're sexual beings well into our golden years.


When I was a child I thought older people did not have sex/were not sexual. LOL.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

treyvion said:


> But shouldn't we expect pleasure with our significant other, especially if it's important to us. It probably shouldn't be the very top consideration, but it should be up in the top 5 for people who think it's important.


yes. I am thinking she means things more mundane or less critical than a loving, healthy sex life - which has an importance exceeding the average "pleasures" in life. e.g. someone insisting they need to do 3somes, despite their spouse's objections. I think that would be an example of what she is talking about. just IMO


----------



## Theseus

Catherine602 said:


> Using your way of looking at life, what does he owe me?


Catherine, I think part of the problem with this discussion is that you and other people here are talking past each other, and not having the same conversation.

You keep using words like "*entitled*" and "*owed*". This is a huge thread but I don't think anyone actually claimed that a husband is either entitled to or owed anything from a wife's past sexual life.

What people have claimed is that the husband has a right to feel hurt if his wife freely gave a type of intimacy, shared a special part of herself that with a former lover that she refuses to share with her current husband. Do you really not understand that? Without some other kind of explanation available (like medical problems) the natural assumption is that she isn't as attracted to her husband and either settled for him or married him for other reasons, such as money. No man (or woman) want's to feel like that happened to them. 

Yes, I know there are always other possibilities - people change as they mature, maybe she only did those things when drunk or on drugs, etc. But hold that thought for the moment, because that's not the point I'm trying to make here.

The point is that if you are going to argue about this, make sure that you are arguing the same thing as the rest of us, because it looks like you are arguing against strawmen instead.


----------



## Jellybeans

Theseus said:


> What people have claimed is that the husband has a right to feel hurt if his wife freely gave a type of intimacy, shared a special part of herself that with a former lover that she refuses to share with her current husband.


What if she HATED a certain act?

Would you still hold it against her?

Also, this thread title is so weird to me. Do some men go around polling every sex act a woman may or may not have done? Then resenting her for if she has?


----------



## treyvion

Jellybeans said:


> What if she HATED a certain act?
> 
> Would you still hold it against her?
> 
> Also, this thread title is so weird to me. Do some men go around polling every sex act a woman may or may not have done? Then resenting her for if she has?


The thread was designed to talk about the situation that there are act(s) that she likes which aren't degrading or painful to her, that she has shared with others but refuses to share with her husband because it is simply her choice.

Yes she does have a choice to not participate in an activity with a husband, and the same for a husband with a wife.

But do they have to stand for it? NO.


----------



## Jellybeans

Ok, I see now. 

Well, I still want to know: do some men go around polling their partners on every sex act they did, like a survey and demanding it be done it they have not done it yet. Truly, I want to know this. 



treyvion said:


> Yes she does have a choice to not participate in an activity with a husband, and the same for a husband with a wife.
> 
> *But do they have to stand for it? NO.*


You are right. They don't. They can choose to leave. Or just not marry her from the get-go if they are upset she won't do XYZ with them. Or if married, they can divorce her. Free will.

Personally I would not want to hear all about a man's sexcapades with other women if I am in a relationship with him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Divinely Favored said:


> *This is like saying I cheated in my spouse and I can see their hurt...but its their feelings and I'm not responsible for their emotions that is their problem.* The emotional wellbeing of your spouse is a christian duty...your bodies belong to each other...do not with hold but for a time with both agreeing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um....NO.

The pain you may feel about what your wife did BEFORE YOU EVER MET HER is not the same as the pain you would feel if she CHEATED ON YOU. If she cheated on you, she did this TO YOU. What she did before she met you was NOT about you.

Seriously. Get real.


----------



## Jellybeans

Reminds me of a woman's story I read once. There was a woman who was married to a man who wanted to do the swinging lifestyle. She said it eventually ruined her marriage. She did not want to continue the lifestyle. She left the marriage and find a one-on-one relationship. Just wondering how she would have felt if the new guy told her he was going to leave her if she didn't partake in swinging with him.


----------



## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> Ok, I see now.
> 
> Well, I still want to know: do some men go around polling their partners on every sex act they did, like a survey and demanding it be done it they have not done it yet. Truly, I want to know this.
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. They don't. They can choose to leave. Or just not marry her from the get-go if they are upset she won't do XYZ with them. Or if married, they can divorce her. Free will.
> 
> *Personally I would not want to hear all about a man's sexcapades with other women if I am in a relationship with him*.


And suppose, sometime down the line of being with a man, you heard him bragging to his buddies about something he did with some chick and loved doing it with her, something you had suggested you would like to try, and he had shot you down?


----------



## Jellybeans

samyeagar said:


> And suppose, sometime down the line of being with a man, you heard him bragging to his buddies about something he did with some chick and loved doing it with her, something you had suggested you would like to try, and he had shot you down?


This has never happened to me. And I have, to this day, never been with a man who would disrespect me in such a way, right within earshot, talking to his "buddies" about how he fcked so and so and enjoyed it.

But maybe you have had a different experience.


----------



## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> This has never happened to me. And I have, to this day, never been with a man who would disrespect me in such a way, right within earshot, talking to his "buddies" about how he fcked so and so and enjoyed it.
> 
> But maybe you have had a different experience.


Let's suppose then that it wasn't directly in front of you...just somehow it was let slip that he was recently reminiscing about an ex girlfriend from years ago about how much he loved doing something that he wouldn't do with you?

I really think that most people don't want to know details, and are fine with that, but the problems creep in when things get inadvertently revealed. Once things come out, I think most people would be understanding if there was a reason why feeling had changed...felt coerced, medical issues, things like that...


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam...did you see the PM I sent you a few days back about this issue?


----------



## Jellybeans

samyeagar said:


> Let's suppose then that it wasn't directly in front of you...just somehow it was let slip that he was recently reminiscing about an ex girlfriend from years ago about how much he loved doing something that he wouldn't do with you?


Once again, I have never been with a man who would "slip" about all the ways he fcked someone else and "loved it" in front of me or within close proximity. I consider that extremely disrespectful. And I sure as heck do not go around asking men all the ways that they screwed someone else.


----------



## NobodySpecial

treyvion said:


> The thread was designed to talk about the situation that there are act(s) that she likes which aren't degrading or painful to her, that she has shared with others but refuses to share with her husband because it is simply her choice.
> 
> Yes she does have a choice to not participate in an activity with a husband, and the same for a husband with a wife.
> 
> But do they have to stand for it? NO.


I guess to me, I never did any acts FOR anyone. I did/do them WITH someone. So whether or not I want to do it with a given partner has to do with how much he lights my fire. Luckily my husband REALLY lights my fire. But let's say I married a really awesome guy who maybe did not light my fire so much? I just wouldn't want to.


----------



## treyvion

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess to me, I never did any acts FOR anyone. I did/do them WITH someone. So whether or not I want to do it with a given partner has to do with how much he lights my fire. Luckily my husband REALLY lights my fire. But let's say I married a really awesome guy who maybe did not light my fire so much? I just wouldn't want to.


So your telling me if your husband didn't light your fire, you wouldn't want to conjugate with him, wouldn't kiss him, wouldn't perform oral, just because he isn't driving your lust level to level 100?

That you would be OK knowing that you had given so much more of yourself to ex boyfriends, and that you can do it, it wouldn't be degrading, it's just you don't "desire" to... You can't "see" you doing that with him because of how you look @ hiM?


----------



## NobodySpecial

treyvion said:


> So your telling me if your husband didn't light your fire, you wouldn't want to conjugate with him, wouldn't kiss him, wouldn't perform oral, just because he isn't driving your lust level to level 100?
> 
> That you would be OK knowing that you had given so much more of yourself to ex boyfriends, and that you can do it, it wouldn't be degrading, it's just you don't "desire" to... You can't "see" you doing that with him because of how you look @ hiM?


If I had wound up with a man who did not light my fire, I would consider that a mistake. For both of our sakes. Yes, how I look at a man, how manly he is, makes a difference about whether I am going get hot for him. I don't see why that is so bad.

Why would HE want to be with ME given a situation like that. The right solution would be to recognize that we were not compatible. Not that I should perform acts that I am not inspired by him to perform. So he does not feel degraded. God if I were him, that would be MORE degrading.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Only a man who was used to having sex with hookers would think it was desirable to have sex with a woman who wasn't even remotely sexually attracted to him.

If I wasn't sexually attracted to my husband but wanted to have sex with him anyway? He would refuse and dump me because he would know he deserves to be with a woman who is into him and would never accept NOR DESIRE pity/duty/whatever sex. I would do the same.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> sam...did you see the PM I sent you a few days back about this issue?


I did  Things have just been so absolutely hectic and all over the place...and now things have flared back up with the IRS because my ex did not file her amended 2012 return as ordered by the court...anyway...I digress...


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Only a man who was used to having sex with hookers would think it was desirable to have sex with a woman who wasn't even remotely sexually attracted to him.
> 
> If I wasn't sexually attracted to my husband but wanted to have sex with him anyway? He would refuse and dump me because he would know he deserves to be with a woman who is into him and would never accept NOR DESIRE pity/duty/whatever sex. I would do the same.


And I imagine most people are just the same way...not really wanting pity sex. That's what this all boils down to...doing things with past lovers, and not desiring to do them with your current partner for no reason other than you just don't feel the same desire...again, not talking about things like medical issues, feeling pressured or coerced in the past...just not feeling "it". AT that point, especially if you know your partner wants those things you know you enjoy, just not with them...let them go for both persons sakes.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And I imagine most people are just the same way...not really wanting pity sex. That's what this all boils down to...doing things with past lovers, and not desiring to do them with your current partner for no reason other than you just don't feel the same desire...again, not talking about things like medical issues, feeling pressured or coerced in the past...just not feeling "it". AT that point, especially if you know your partner wants those things you know you enjoy, just not with them...let them go for both persons sakes.


I don't actually agree with this because it makes an assumption about *why* someone would want to do things with one lover and not with another. The assumption that there is more desire for one lover just because you did X sex act is erroneous, IMO.

And where ever the husband learned to believe "if woman does sex act with other lover but not you, it means she doesn't desire you the same" is simply misinformed. He is the one who needs to change his beliefs.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't actually agree with this because it makes an assumption about *why* someone would want to do things with one lover and not with another. The assumption that there is more desire for one lover just because you did X sex act is erroneous, IMO.
> 
> And where ever the husband learned to believe "if woman does sex act with other lover but not you, it means she doesn't desire you the same" is simply misinformed. He is the one who needs to change his beliefs.


I don't care if it's more desire or she simply couldn't look at me in a light to perform that act on or with me.

After a while, I would stop desiring her for making acts off the table which are common to her and she actually likes. She just doesn't want to with me. Swinging and degredations I could understand, but some of the more common sex acts and intimacies, if they were denied to me, but she really liked doing them, just didn't see me in a light to do them on I would have a problem and eventually would leave.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Thor said:


> Go ahead, inject facts into a good thread!
> 
> I think OP said somewhere that his wife was fondly recalling the past events. Without going through all 60+ pages of this thread, I found this post by OP on page 3.
> 
> 
> 
> What I think is important in the OP's case is that
> 1) She lied to him about what she had done in the past when he asked her.
> 2) She had told a girlfriend about these past wild exploits, which implies she still thinks fondly about those times.
> 3) She currently says she enjoyed doing those things back then (she wasn't forced into those acts at the time)
> 4) She says she does not find the acts disgusting currently, she simply has no desire to do them with her husband.
> 
> All those factors add up to her not having nearly as much sexual desire for her husband as for her previous lovers.
> 
> To me it would be completely different if she were to say she didn't enjoy them at the time or that for a reasonable cause she finds them unpleasant now. Maybe she tried anal back then and didn't like it, or it is unpleasant today to do it. Fine, it is not something hubby should expect from her now. But that is not the case according to her own words.
> 
> I also think OP is unreasonable in expecting things which may be unhealthy, such as bringing a 3rd person into their bedroom. This is one of those things which might still be interesting to think about and which was fun for his wife to do when single, but when married it is a bad idea.
> 
> OP seemed to want to do these things to claim his territory or to make his wife submit to him. I don't think OP was approaching this issue from a healthy position.


He said it was something she liked but would not do with him. I was sure he clarified before pg 20 or so that he DID NOT want a threesome....it was just one of the things his wife had done in the past. The fact she is telling "NEW FRIENDS" she enjoyed it after telling him for 20 yrs. she does not go there after he had tried and wanted some of the same sex acts she enjoyed. This is where the rub comes in. She enjoyed doing them but will not go there with him all the while continuing to tell new girlfriends she liked it with ole boy friend. The disrespectfulness, uncaring and total lack of empathy is harsh. It would be difficult to respect your spouse after that IMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

Divinely Favored said:


> He said it was something she liked but would not do with him. I was sure he clarified before pg 20 or so that he DID NOT want a threesome....it was just one of the things his wife had done in the past. The fact she is telling "NEW FRIENDS" she enjoyed it after telling him for 20 yrs. she does not go there after he had tried and wanted some of the same sex acts she enjoyed. This is where the rub comes in. She enjoyed doing them but will not go there with him all the while continuing to tell new girlfriends she liked it with ole boy friend. The disrespectfulness, uncaring and total lack of empathy is harsh. It would be difficult to respect your spouse after that IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's more and more difficult for her to respect you going forward after she knows you probably realize you are being seen at in a dimmer light than you should be. Over time you must realize she's not that hot for you.


----------



## I Don't Know

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't actually agree with this because it makes an assumption about *why* someone would want to do things with one lover and not with another. The assumption that there is more desire for one lover just because you did X sex act is erroneous, IMO.
> 
> And where ever the husband learned to believe "if woman does sex act with other lover but not you, it means she doesn't desire you the same" is simply misinformed. He is the one who needs to change his beliefs.


I guess that's where the two sides are seeing things differently. Your side sees it as there is a logical reason she does not want to do these things now. If I'm wrong let me know.

The other side sees it as, if there's a good reason, tell me and it's not a big deal. If you tried it and hated it, fine. If he said I want this and if we don't do it I'm out, fine. If you can't do anal anymore because it hurts now and didn't then or you learned that there are risks involved, fine. I may still have to work through some feelings, but at least I know. But if you're not going to give me a reason, I will take it as you just don't want me as bad as you wanted him. And that would be very hard to deal with.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I Don't Know said:


> I guess that's where the two sides are seeing things differently. Your side sees it as there is a logical reason she does not want to do these things now. If I'm wrong let me know.
> 
> The other side sees it as, if there's a good reason, tell me and it's not a big deal. If you tried it and hated it, fine. If he said I want this and if we don't do it I'm out, fine. If you can't do anal anymore because it hurts now and didn't then or you learned that there are risks involved, fine. I may still have to work through some feelings, but at least I know. *But if you're not going to give me a reason, I will take it as you just don't want me as bad as you wanted him.* And that would be very hard to deal with.


None of us get to decide how someone else feels, what they experienced, or why they did something. So just saying outright "if she did X with someone before me, it means Y" is bogus. We have no way of knowing inside another person's mind or motivations.

In the part I bolded above, you have every right to feel that way, however. I have no issues with the fact that some people may have retroactive jealousy and they may want reassurances or whatever. And they may do what they want with the info or lack of info, as far as how they *feel*.

But regardless of how they *feel*, they still cannot place a "why" on the spouse's motivations, how they felt, or whether it "means" anything that they did such-and-such sex act with someone else but not you.

Again, you still get to feel hurt by it, because that part is all about you.

I'd remind people again though, that since not everyone feels the same about past events (ie: some spouses have no issues with it), this means there is no one universal way of feeling about it. Which means, you aren't "right" to feel the jealousy, you simply do feel it based on your own life circumstances. Since another spouse may not be jealous in the same situation at all, they are not "right" either.

I'm just pointing this out because of people with RA do tend to feel they are "right" to feel that way. But they are only "right" in themselves, not across the board for other people.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> None of us get to decide how someone else feels, what they experienced, or why they did something. So just saying outright "if she did X with someone before me, it means Y" is bogus. We have no way of knowing inside another person's mind or motivations.
> 
> In the part I bolded above, you have every right to feel that way, however. I have no issues with the fact that some people may have retroactive jealousy and they may want reassurances or whatever. And they may do what they want with the info or lack of info, as far as how they *feel*.
> 
> But regardless of how they *feel*, they still cannot place a "why" on the spouse's motivations, how they felt, or whether it "means" anything that they did such-and-such sex act with someone else but not you.
> 
> Again, you still get to feel hurt by it, because that part is all about you.
> 
> I'd remind people again though, that since not everyone feels the same about past events (ie: some spouses have no issues with it), this means there is no one universal way of feeling about it. Which means, you aren't "right" to feel the jealousy, you simply do feel it based on your own life circumstances. Since another spouse may not be jealous in the same situation at all, they are not "right" either.
> 
> I'm just pointing this out because of people with RA do tend to feel they are "right" to feel that way. But they are only "right" in themselves, not across the board for other people.


Many of us are completely fine not burying our head in the sand.

If it's a non-degrading interaction, that the other party likes, and we also like but they choose for whatever reason they won't look at us as a viable candidate for that act, we have to listen to what their actions say about there desireability and value of us.

Many men have become simply a "prop" in the lives of their "woman".

I think as adults, we can choose to serve as a "prop" in someones life if we choose to, but if it makes you feel degraded then it's not right.

I guess I'm really not feeling that a husband or wife espcially married under the "Christian" religion can be like this. That love cannot over come it. You cannot get me to understand that this man or female who likes kissing, holding hands, affection, piv sex, oral, massages CHOOSES that thier spouse is not entitled to that level of their person.

I'm ok with devil worshipers and witches doing it. It's for you to discern what your dealing with.


----------



## I Don't Know

Fair enough.

Only the person who did the acts and refuses to do them now does know their motivations. But I guess I just don't see that it's asking too much for them to explain. If I did something that caused my W to be hurt, I would try to explain why. And this wife is doing something that causes her husband to be hurt. Not by doing certain acts before, but by refusing to do them with him.

I also don't see how it doesn't mean anything, but that is probably me failing to see anothers perspective. It just doesn't make sense to me that there isn't some reason. I don't know what it is, but I think there is one somewhere.

I know I'm not "right" to feel hurt by the past. It sucks and I wouldn't feel it if I could help it. But, them's the breaks.


----------



## treyvion

I Don't Know said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Only the person who did the acts and refuses to do them now does know their motivations. But I guess I just don't see that it's asking too much for them to explain. If I did something that caused my W to be hurt, I would try to explain why. And this wife is doing something that causes her husband to be hurt. Not by doing certain acts before, but by refusing to do them with him.
> 
> I also don't see how it doesn't mean anything, but that is probably me failing to see anothers perspective. It just doesn't make sense to me that there isn't some reason. I don't know what it is, but I think there is one somewhere.
> 
> I know I'm not "right" to feel hurt by the past. It sucks and I wouldn't feel it if I could help it. But, them's the breaks.


It's OK to be hurt by the past. Because it's not really their past, it's how they are TODAY. Just not with you. That's the part that hurts.

Any one of us would be fine knowing such an act became a degradation or it was forced on them or was painful and they had problems.

But simply because they choose not to do it with US, that they will do it with the next guy or gal. That's not ok, and we need to respect ourself and move on if it's that important to us.


----------



## I Don't Know

If this husband had said, "no I don't do oral" but later she found out he had infact done oral and liked it I believe she would have a few questions as well.


----------



## I Don't Know

treyvion said:


> It's OK to be hurt by the past. Because it's not really their past, it's how they are TODAY. Just not with you. That's the part that hurts.
> 
> Any one of us would be fine knowing such an act became a degradation or it was forced on them or was painful and they had problems.
> 
> But simply because they choose not to do it with US, that they will do it with the next guy or gal. That's not ok, and we need to respect ourself and move on if it's that important to us.


In this situation I'm with you. I'm talking more about my RJ in general. Every little thing becomes a big deal and it truly is a special kind of hell.


----------



## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Only the person who did the acts and refuses to do them now does know their motivations. But I guess I just don't see that it's asking too much for them to explain. If I did something that caused my W to be hurt, I would try to explain why. And this wife is doing something that causes her husband to be hurt. Not by doing certain acts before, but by refusing to do them with him.
> 
> I also don't see how it doesn't mean anything, but that is probably me failing to see anothers perspective. It just doesn't make sense to me that there isn't some reason. I don't know what it is, but I think there is one somewhere.
> 
> *I know I'm not "right" to feel hurt by the past*. It sucks and I wouldn't feel it if I could help it. But, them's the breaks.


You don't really have a right to be hurt by the past, but you certainly have the right to feel hurt and disrespected depending on how that past is brought into your present.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I Don't Know said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Only the person who did the acts and refuses to do them now does know their motivations. *But I guess I just don't see that it's asking too much for them to explain.* If I did something that caused my W to be hurt, I would try to explain why. And this wife is doing something that causes her husband to be hurt. Not by doing certain acts before, but by refusing to do them with him.
> 
> I also don't see how it doesn't mean anything, but that is probably me failing to see anothers perspective. *It just doesn't make sense to me that there isn't some reason. I don't know what it is, but I think there is one somewhere.*
> 
> I know I'm not "right" to feel hurt by the past. It sucks and I wouldn't feel it if I could help it. But, them's the breaks.


Of course, the spouse has the right to ask for an explanation. And if they don't get one they feel comfortable with, they can feel however they feel about that.

But that still doesn't change anything about the other spouse's reasons or motivations or anything.

When you say "it just doesn't make sense to me...", all this says to me is that at some point in your life, you "learned" or decided that having a certain sex act "means something" to you, or you decided it "means something" to women.

It is simply part of your personal belief system.

Which doesn't make it true. I know you already said it doesn't make it true, yet you would believe it anyway. Thus, we each get to believe what we want to believe in this same way. However, holding some beliefs that hurt you deeply even though you may be wrong in your belief, should be something that YOU look at closely within yourself.

I don't see the point of making up false couples and false scenarios and going around with "what if this, what if that?" 

Real scenarios with real couples are the only thing anyone can really work with.

My husband has done lots of things sexually before he met me, things he will never do with me. It has never once occurred to me to ask him "why", because it was BEFORE HE MET ME and therefore it has nothing to do with me. So that's my personal belief system at work.

But I also may not have continued a relationship with him if I had found out things about his past that I didn't like, and it wouldn't matter what his reasons are. I would have simply chosen not to continue seeing him for my own reasons.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> You don't really have a right to be hurt by the past, but you certainly have the right to feel hurt and disrespected depending on how that past is brought into your present.


I actually think you have a right to feel hurt...it's just that feeling hurt it isn't "the one and only right way to feel".

It is YOUR way to feel, because you are you and you believe and feel what you believe and feel.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I actually think you have a right to feel hurt...it's just that feeling hurt it isn't "the one and only right way to feel".
> 
> It is YOUR way to feel, because you are you and you believe and feel what you believe and feel.


I think I chose the wrong word...you don't have the right to hold it against your partner, to use their past as an emotional weapon against them.

It is pretty well known here the things I have been through with my wife, and while some of it is still completely mind boggling to me, that I have ZERO frame of reference for, that I simply can't understand sympathetically or empathetically, I have accepted it. That doesn't mean that it still doesn't bother me, that it doesn't leave an unsettled feeling in my stomach when a mind movie hits out of no where. I can honestly say that those things don't cloud how I feel about her. I don't think of her any less, love her any less, nor do I have any expectation that things she has done before should be expected to be done with me.

I think the main reason why I am able to feel the way I do, am able to accept things as I do is because she was very open and honest with me from the get go. She explained as best as she could her reasons for doing some of the things she did, she answered my questions honestly, and really helped me try and understand. The fact that she felt that our relationship, that I was worth the time and effort, opening up old wounds really showed me just how much she respected and valued me.

Add to it the one thing that kind of makes it hard for me to actually directly relate to this...she has done some things with me that she hasn't done with anyone else, and has actively pursued and enjoyed things with me that she detested doing with others before me, so I guess from that respect, I am the big winner.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> I think I chose the wrong word...you don't have the right to hold it against your partner, to use their past as an emotional weapon against them.
> 
> It is pretty well known here the things I have been through with my wife, and while some of it is still completely mind boggling to me, that I have ZERO frame of reference for, that I simply can't understand sympathetically or empathetically, I have accepted it. That doesn't mean that it still doesn't bother me, that it doesn't leave an unsettled feeling in my stomach when a mind movie hits out of no where. I can honestly say that those things don't cloud how I feel about her. I don't think of her any less, love her any less, nor do I have any expectation that things she has done before should be expected to be done with me.
> 
> I think the main reason why I am able to feel the way I do, am able to accept things as I do is because she was very open and honest with me from the get go. She explained as best as she could her reasons for doing some of the things she did, she answered my questions honestly, and really helped me try and understand. The fact that she felt that our relationship, that I was worth the time and effort, opening up old wounds really showed me just how much she respected and valued me.
> 
> Add to it the one thing that kind of makes it hard for me to actually directly relate to this...she has done some things with me that she hasn't done with anyone else, and has actively pursued and enjoyed things with me that she detested doing with others before me, so I guess from that respect, I am the big winner.


So if the situation was flipped. Wife done more with most x boyfriends than you, her husband. There is nothing wrong with her, she still likes doing these things. It's just your her husband and those where boyfriends, she doesn't owe you anything.

If that was the hand you were dealt do you think you could make it a positive thing that shes refusing to do things with you that she likes to do?


----------



## I Don't Know

It's not that I think a certain sex act means something. It's the refusal in the here and now that I believe means something. A refusal without reason. It doesn't matter if my W did something before we met, she still did it. She still liked it. So why does she not want to do it again? I can't think of a single thing I've ever done that I wouldn't do with her if she wanted it. What I decided meant something is giving to the person I chose to marry above and beyond all others. 

Just to be clear, I am unaware of any sexual acts my wife has done that she refuses to do with me. But I get where the OP is coming from.


----------



## samyeagar

treyvion said:


> So if the situation was flipped. Wife done more with most x boyfriends than you, her husband. There is nothing wrong with her, she still likes doing these things. It's just your her husband and those where boyfriends, she doesn't owe you anything.
> 
> If that was the hand you were dealt do you think you could make it a positive thing that shes refusing to do things with you that she likes to do?


There are things she has done in the past with her ex husband, and other boyfriends that she would not be willing to do with me, things she actually enjoyed in fact. We have talked about them and her reasons for not wanting to do them with me, and I have accepted her reasons, and am ok with them. She went out of her way to help me understand why it wasn't a slight against me from her point of view.

I think if instead of the way things went, she just simply said, tough, I did those things, liked them, but am not doing them with you, no explanation necessary, I wouldn't have married her, though for a very different reason than the physical acts.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I Don't Know said:


> It's not that I think a certain sex act means something. It's the refusal in the here and now that I believe means something. A refusal without reason. *It doesn't matter if my W did something before we met, she still did it. She still liked it.* So why does she not want to do it again? I can't think of a single thing I've ever done that I wouldn't do with her if she wanted it. *What I decided meant something is giving to the person I chose to marry above and beyond all others.*
> 
> Just to be clear, I am unaware of any sexual acts my wife has done that she refuses to do with me. But I get where the OP is coming from.


How do you know she liked it? Are you talking about the OP in this post? Because he never actually told us what she said about it.

And just because you decided that you would give certain things only to the person you married, doesn't mean anyone else decided any such thing.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> How do you know she liked it? Are you talking about the OP in this post? Because he never actually told us what she said about it.
> 
> And just because you decided that you would give certain things only to the person you married, doesn't mean anyone else decided any such thing.


And this is the importance of premarital, and continuing post marital communication and truly trying to understand your partner, their thought process, their motivations. The level of communication this takes really needs both partners to be open, honest, and non judgmental.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And this is the importance of premarital, and continuing post marital communication and truly trying to understand your partner, their thought process, their motivations. The level of communication this takes really needs both partners to be open, honest, and non judgmental.


Well, I guess...but some couples truly wouldn't care what each other did sexually with previous partners, that's been my point.

If it matters to you (the general you) then you need to pick someone with that in mind. And many people do pick a partner with this in mind.

In my case, I picked a partner I knew I could count on to consistently rock my world, and in my case, that meant he also rocked quite a few other ladies' world before me. 

All I can say is, those gals were lucky, and I'm sure they'd agree.


----------



## norajane

I've read this entire thread, and this discussion is still baffling to me. Have y'all never done things you liked and then outgrew them, or grew bored of them, or they lost their thrill because they're no longer new?

There are lots of things we do as teens or young adults that are exciting and fun because they're new, but then become "meh" or entirely uninteresting, and sex acts are likely to be near the top of that list. I can easily see how people might try something and like it, but they like it because it's new or taboo or seemingly daring, and after you do them for a while, they lose their erotic thrill and aren't really interesting anymore, while other acts become favorites and you never stop doing them and never get tired of them. Or maybe you have fantasies about something, and it's the most erotically thrilling thing ever when you do it, but then it ends up killing the fantasy AND is no longer erotic nor a turn on.

Novelty fades. 

What I do see a lot of in this thread is the assumption that if "she did it with someone else but not you" that it automatically means she enjoyed the other guy more or better. Everything a woman does is not about YOU or a statement about you or your sexual prowess or her love for you. You do yourself a disservice and put yourself down when you assume it's a sign of "how she really feels about you." It's not about you. Stop making that assumption. It's self-defeating. And wrong.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> *Well, I guess...but some couples truly wouldn't care what each other did sexually with previous partners, that's been my point.*
> 
> If it matters to you (the general you) then you need to pick someone with that in mind. And many people do pick a partner with this in mind.
> 
> In my case, I picked a partner I knew I could count on to consistently rock my world, and in my case, that meant he also rocked quite a few other ladies' world before me.
> 
> All I can say is, those gals were lucky, and I'm sure they'd agree.


See this is just it...my wife thought much the same way. In fact, she insisted that there was pretty much nothing that could bother her along those lines, and I took her at her word, and honestly, I think she truly believed that about herself too, until...I know you are aware of what happened when everything came out about my ex and the sex toys.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> See this is just it...my wife thought much the same way. In fact, she insisted that there was pretty much nothing that could bother her along those lines, and I took her at her word, and honestly, I think she truly believed that about herself too, until...I know you are aware of what happened when everything came out about my ex and the sex toys.


Yes sometimes people are surprised with what will bother them in this regard.

But that doesn't mean that many people simply wouldn't care even if they did hear or find out something.

In fact, some people enjoy hearing those details, it turns them on.

Again, there is no "right" way to feel about it.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> There are things she has done in the past with her ex husband, and other boyfriends that she would not be willing to do with me, things she actually enjoyed in fact. We have talked about them and her reasons for not wanting to do them with me, and I have accepted her reasons, and am ok with them. She went out of her way to help me understand why it wasn't a slight against me from her point of view.
> 
> I think if instead of the way things went, she just simply said, tough, I did those things, liked them, but am not doing them with you, no explanation necessary, I wouldn't have married her, though for a very different reason than the physical acts.


You have a strong resolution. If it was an act I knew she enjoyed, and she vowed to never do it with me, I couldn't be happy knowing this.

It does matter.


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## jaharthur

norajane said:


> I've read this entire thread, and this discussion is still baffling to me. Have y'all never done things you liked and then outgrew them, or grew bored of them, or they lost their thrill because they're no longer new?
> 
> There are lots of things we do as teens or young adults that are exciting and fun because they're new, but then become "meh" or entirely uninteresting, and sex acts are likely to be near the top of that list. I can easily see how people might try something and like it, but they like it because it's new or taboo or seemingly daring, and after you do them for a while, they lose their erotic thrill and aren't really interesting anymore, while other acts become favorites and you never stop doing them and never get tired of them. Or maybe you have fantasies about something, and it's the most erotically thrilling thing ever when you do it, but then it ends up killing the fantasy AND is no longer erotic nor a turn on.
> 
> Novelty fades.
> 
> What I do see a lot of in this thread is the assumption that if "she did it with someone else but not you" that it automatically means she enjoyed the other guy more or better. Everything a woman does is not about YOU or a statement about you or your sexual prowess or her love for you. * You do yourself a disservice and put yourself down when you assume it's a sign of "how she really feels about you." It's not about you. Stop making that assumption. It's self-defeating. And wrong.*


Re the bolded part: I suppose that's your belief. which is fine, but it isn't necessarily true. It might be true. On the other hand, it might well be a sign of how she feels about her husband. You don't have the right to say it's _wrong _unless you know *ALL *the circumstances and facts. That's why so many of us are saying that there should be an explanation beyond "because."


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## Faithful Wife

jaharthur said:


> Re the bolded part: I suppose that's your belief. which is fine, but it isn't necessarily true. It might be true. On the other hand, it might well be a sign of how she feels about her husband. You don't have the right to say it's _wrong _unless you know *ALL *the circumstances and facts. That's why so many of us are saying that there should be an explanation beyond "because."


But if you ask and you get the answer "because" and you never got the details of the circumstances...you still would have no idea if if it "meant" anything at all nor if she enjoyed it and was deliberately withholding it from you.

You would have the right to be hurt, angry, whatever. But she would have no obligation to fix your feelings for you, nor would she have any obligation to feel bad.


----------



## norajane

jaharthur said:


> Re the bolded part: I suppose that's your belief. which is fine, but it isn't necessarily true. It might be true. On the other hand, it might well be a sign of how she feels about her husband. You don't have the right to say it's _wrong _unless you know *ALL *the circumstances and facts. That's why so many of us are saying that there should be an explanation beyond "because."


I'm saying that immediately making that assumption automatically is wrong. Why wouldn't you give your spouse the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically assuming the worst?

If you assume the best, then having the discussion of what "because" means is far less adversarial and more likely to lead to actual, honest communication. "Yeah, after I had him dress up as a Viking warrior a few times, I really didn't care anymore and just wanted to get to the ravishing part."

Starting off by assuming she settled for you as a provider or whatever leads to an entirely different kind of discussion which is going to lead to someone shutting down...."Because. And no thank you for interrogating me about it like I'm a criminal." 

It's also a sad way of thinking - your spouse's sex life before you automatically leads you to believe that you must be less worthy in her eyes? Why would that be your first thought? Why wouldn't you consider there could be all kinds of reasons, not just the one that makes you feel like sh*t on her shoe?

I don't immediately assume what my SO did in his sex life before me is any kind of commentary on me, much less a negative commentary on me. I don't understand why that is the go-to thought for some people. It seems both sad and adversarial to me.


----------



## Thundarr

There are vastly different extremes here depending on what it is a guy wants and the reason why.

Let's speculate she used to be into swinging or group action. No way should a guy try to pressure his wife to do these things ever. Personally I don't know how you can share who you love anyway.

Now let's speculate she used to be into anal. My thought is if a guy wants to do it then she should consider it at least once. Is she obligated? No. Is he entitled? No. But if she loves him it would be a nice thing for her to do.


----------



## murphy5

this is a tough one. One one hand, denying your current husband sex acts that you used to do freely with others is going to hurt him, at least subconsciously. 

On the other hand, yeah people might have tried something once or twice and decided they no longer like it.

I think the problem here is that she did It OFTEN and with GUSTO. So she probably would still enjoy the physical sex act, just NOT WITH HER HUSBAND. See the problem? Who would she do the sex act with, her OM? That is maybe what her husband is going to be wondering about. Why not do it a few times with him and then just say "I really don't like this anymore...lets try X instead". Then the whole problem goes away smoothly.


----------



## Divinely Favored

davecarter said:


> That much is true...and thus far, 100%
> 
> We talked about it this morning. I asked her generally, what her sex-drive/libido was like and she basically said it differs with each guy she is with and went into detail about it.
> 
> Like I said earlier, her last bf (_who was a Badboy 101_) just used her for 18 months, cheated on her and put her down, but...kept her hooked by ragging the ass off her sexually throughout.
> She admitted the entire 'relationship' was based on, usually, kinky and _really _rough sex.
> 
> Other boyfriends, she said, not nearly as much. Just _"okay, nice but nothing mind-blowing"._
> With her, I obviously fit into the latter category, even though I've been into kinky-no-vanilla stuff with other women before....I don't seem to be able to with my current. :scratchhead:
> 
> (the Badboy #'101 is trying to get back with her after his shortlived marriage failed early this year, so I often ask her if he has emailled / texted her and she confirms he has and often, but stresses she feels nothing for him anymore.)


And you are OK with this? How does she respond to his advances? She ought to change email and cell #.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored

Faithful Wife said:


> Um....NO.
> 
> The pain you may feel about what your wife did BEFORE YOU EVER MET HER is not the same as the pain you would feel if she CHEATED ON YOU. If she cheated on you, she did this TO YOU. What she did before she met you was NOT about you.
> 
> Seriously. Get real.


She did/is doing it to him. For all these years he has asked wanted to do some of the sex acts. She denied she did/does not like "those type of sex acts". Then he finds out during her conversation/remenissing with a Recently acquired friend she enjoyed that kind of sex with previous lover. And fact she also did bdsm and 3somes. He clarified early in the thread he did NOT want a 3some. Her only excuse why she has denied him the sex acts/position all these years is "That was then, this is now"....but he had been asking to do some of these things since back then! Before he knew she did and enjoyed it with past lover. She has been selfish and denied him something she her self stated to her New GF she ENJOYED DOING with ex. SHE LIED FROM THE START...WITH HELD SEXUAL ACTS FROM HUSBAND THAT 20 YRS LATER SHE ADMITTED SHE ENJOYED DOING WITH PREVIOUS LOVER...AND WAS TELLING NEWER FRIEND(ONLY KNOWN FOR THE LAST 10 YRS OF A 22 YR MARRIAGE AND SHE ENJOYRD IT....NOW SHE REFUSES TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE OF THE LIES AND TELLING GF HOW MUCH SHE ENJOYED ANAL/BDSM, ETC WITH PREVIOUS LOVER AND IS BEING DISMISSIVE OF HIM AND PAIN SHE CAUSED BY HER ACTIONS. SO YES SHE DID IT TO HIM! SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HURT AND DISRESPECT TO HER HUSBAND.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored

Jellybeans said:


> This has never happened to me. And I have, to this day, never been with a man who would disrespect me in such a way, right within earshot, talking to his "buddies" about how he fcked so and so and enjoyed it.
> 
> But maybe you have had a different experience.


THIS IS BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO OP!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes sometimes people are surprised with what will bother them in this regard.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that many people simply wouldn't care even if they did hear or find out something.
> 
> In fact, some people enjoy hearing those details, it turns them on.
> 
> Again, there is no "right" way to feel about it.


No doubt there is no right way to feel about this. Also things like this, finding out things about one partners past, may not bother them at all with one partner, but might bother them tremendously with a different partner, and there is no way for them to really know how they'd feel until faced with it...kind of the flip side of things.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Faithful Wife said:


> How do you know she liked it? Are you talking about the OP in this post? Because he never actually told us what she said about it.
> 
> And just because you decided that you would give certain things only to the person you married, doesn't mean anyone else decided any such thing.


OP said he found out she had did those things with previous lover that he had asked for from the start (that she denied him) AND...LIKED DOING THEM. That came from her conversation with newer friend about the sex acts she did over 20 yes ago with previous lover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> But if you ask and you get the answer "because" and you never got the details of the circumstances...you still would have no idea if if it "meant" anything at all nor if she enjoyed it and was deliberately withholding it from you.
> 
> You would have the right to be hurt, angry, whatever. But she would have no obligation to fix your feelings for you, nor would she have any obligation to feel bad.


It seems to me that his obligation to assume the best in her actions is coextensive to her obligations. 

None of us have the right for our actions to have no effect.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tall Average Guy said:


> It seems to me that his obligation to assume the best in her actions is coextensive to her obligations.
> 
> None of us have the right for our actions to have no effect.


Correct, none of us have the right to dictate to someone else how our prior behavior will affect how they feel about us.

But we do have the right to reject someone who would hold our past against us, especially since our past had nothing to do with them.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> Correct, none of us have the right to dictate to someone else how our prior behavior will affect how they feel about us.
> 
> But we do have the right to reject someone who would hold our past against us, especially since our past had nothing to do with them.


No disagreement. But it also applies to current behavior as well.


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## Faithful Wife

Of course, it applies to current behavior but this thread was about what a wife did sexually in her past. If she reminisced about it to a girlfriend with no intention of her husband hearing it, did she really do something that evil? Really? I mean, come on. She didn't throw it in his face. We have no way of knowing if the girlfriend had an agenda in telling the husband, why the heck did she do that? We have no idea what was actually said, because the only version we have of this is he said - she said - she said. 

So the assumption by some here that she had wild sex she LOVED in her past but she just isn't into her husband because she won't do it with him and she told her friend all about it...is missing a lot of facts behind it.

Yes, it could be totally true. Maybe she isn't into her husband and she was into some guy in her past.

If that's true, the husband would do right by himself to leave, IMO.

But the assumption that it is true, by some of us here on the forum, is just weird because there are not any facts.

Couldn't we just assume it might NOT be true, just as easily? Because if we heard from the wife that she never said this and her girlfriend is actually a druggie and isn't to be trusted and actually wants in her husband's pants and/or wallet, wouldn't we then be surprised to have this new information?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Correct, none of us have the right to dictate to someone else how our prior behavior will affect how they feel about us.
> 
> But we do have the right to reject someone who would hold our past against us, especially *since our past had nothing to do with them.*


In the most literal sense, this is correct, but...

Past behaviour, especially patterns of behaviour are a very good indicator of present and future behaviour. People can and do change through out their lives, but as someone outside of that person, it is still wise to acknowledge the past as part of the present and who that person is, so from that more subtle stand point, their past has a lot to do with the present, and by proxy, their partner.

Again, it's not right to hold their past against them as some personal wrong to us in the present.

Just a personal example I have talked about before...my wife and her ex-husband, and her going back to him for sex time and again even a few years after he left her. The last time being less than a year before she and I met, right after she had broken up with a boyfriend. I feel that situation warrants some sort of explanation and understanding of what kind of hold he had over her, especially since he was going to at least somewhat be in our lives because of their kids, and the shared house that thank god is in the process of selling...


----------



## samyeagar

A recent continuation of my example...we are in the process of moving over two hours from where we were living. My wife had a bunch of things she had to do down there around the old place. Her ex-husband was supposed to come over to the old house on a Monday morning and make some repairs before selling. My wife suggested we spend the night at the old house and I would get up and go to work from there, and then just go to the new house after work. She was going to get up and run her errands around the old place. All I had to do was ask one question..."So he's coming over Monday morning after I go to work?" It took her about half a second to connect the dots and change the plans.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Don't get me wrong on that point, sam...I definitely think we have the right to inquire into each other's pasts and get as much info as we feel necessary to feel safe with a partner.

But if they withheld info as simple as "yeah, I actually had freaky sex with this ONE person and enjoyed it, but really don't want to do that again" from you, is this really that big of a deal? Really?

I think people should examine their own motives in finding out these kinds of details. Do you really need the info to make a decision about being with this person (which was totally true in your case, sam), or are we actually just so insecure/jealous in general that we can't handle the idea that our new partner ever had a great time having sex with someone else?

Example, I used to date a guy who simply couldn't handle his jealousy at all, ever...with ANY woman. Even women he had barely dated. Everything thing the woman had done previously sexually would eat at his soul, even if he knew none of the details. He admitted this to me about himself when we were dating, so I knew it upfront. He hated this about himself and hated feeling horrible and jealous and he didn't really know where it had come from. But I later figured it out...

Basically, the main reason he could never settle himself and had major jealousy was because HE could not ever stop thinking about sex with EVERY woman he saw. His mind was constantly on banging everything, everywhere. So of course he could never trust that a woman he was dating wasn't doing the same thing.

Total projection and it made him SOOO unhappy but it was entirely due to his own weird thinking about stuff.

Again, the reasons we feel jealous are personal. Even in your case sam...there are some men who just wouldn't care about what you are describing. Your reasons are your own and I would have a problem with what you went through, also.

Some of the things my H has done in his past felt weird to me at first when I heard of them. I spent time with myself to examine why they felt weird to me. I compared the way he is with me to my feelings about it. I never questioned his motives or reasons, as I feel it is irrelevant. I finally came to understand my own feelings about it and now I'm really happy about everything.

I understand though that some women would never be ok with his past. And some men would never be ok with mine.

It really is about ourselves, though.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> There are things she has done in the past with her ex husband, and other boyfriends that she would not be willing to do with me, things she actually enjoyed in fact. We have talked about them and her reasons for not wanting to do them with me, and I have accepted her reasons, and am ok with them. She went out of her way to help me understand why it wasn't a slight against me from her point of view.
> 
> .


:scratchhead:

We'll....that sucks. 

What motivation do you have then to want go out of your way to do extras for her?

If I was her husband and she came to me and said " I really want you to build me a sewing room.

"No". 

"But why? You built sewing rooms for your other ex wives!"

"Yeah I know, and I was glad to do it, but I'm not going to build you one."

"But why? Why am I not deserving of a sewing room?"

"Well you know I'm a different person than I was then, building materials are very expensive, and, oh yeah, you did anal for your ex husband and won't for me....so go sew on the back porch."


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:


Just one example...threesomes. I accept her reasons and thought process behind them with her ex, and I believe her reasoning in why she would not want them with me.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> Just one example...threesomes. I accept her reasons and thought process behind them with her ex, and I believe her reasoning in why she would not want them with me.


MMF or FFM?


----------



## Wolf1974

I think this goes deeper in that when you recognize your partner has in fact had a past but you want to be that special someone to them. That can go beyond sex as well.

Suppose I wanted to always go on an African Safari. Life long dream. I marry a woman who did this with her pervious husband, loved it and had a great time but now doesn't want to do it again for whatever reason. How could the new spouse not be upset at that. 

I don't think any of us want to feel like they are coming in second place....I know I don't.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course, it applies to current behavior but this thread was about what a wife did sexually in her past.


That is only part of it, because it is also about what she will do now.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> We'll....that sucks.
> 
> What motivation do you have then to want go out of your way to do extras for her?
> 
> If I was her husband and she came to me and said " I really want you to build me a sewing room.
> 
> "No".
> 
> "But why? You built sewing rooms for your other ex wives!"
> 
> "Yeah I know, and I was glad to do it, but I'm not going to build you one."
> 
> "But why? Why am I not deserving of a sewing room?"
> 
> "Well you know I'm a different person than I was then, building materials are very expensive, and, oh yeah, you did anal for your ex husband and won't for me....so go sew on the back porch."


What you are essentially describing in what you added is a no answer answer, no real explanation or attempt at an explanation as to why. For me, a response of "just because" or something like that would be more telling than the acts themselves.

In the case of my wife and the threesomes, her thought process at the time was that since he was already cheating on her, and she couldn't stop him, she thought she could at least control the terms in which he was. She would not have gone that route under different circumstances. They all involved other women, and yeah, she enjoyed the experiences for what they were, though she echoed what so many people who have had threesomes say in that they just don't live up to the hype.

She would not feel comfortable in a threesome involving me because she doesn't think she could deal with seeing me taking care of another woman. She also knows how much I tie the physical and emotional when it comes to sex, and that would make it even more difficult for her.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> We'll....that sucks.
> 
> *What motivation do you have then to want go out of your way to do extras for her?*
> 
> If I was her husband and she came to me and said " I really want you to build me a sewing room.
> 
> "No".
> 
> "But why? You built sewing rooms for your other ex wives!"
> 
> "Yeah I know, and I was glad to do it, but I'm not going to build you one."
> 
> "But why? Why am I not deserving of a sewing room?"
> 
> "Well you know I'm a different person than I was then, building materials are very expensive, and, oh yeah, you did anal for your ex husband and won't for me....so go sew on the back porch."


Because I love her, respect her, care about her, enjoy her.

And the fact that certain things sexually that she was very up front about from the very beginning, things she said she didn't overly enjoy doing, but knew they were important to a varied and active sex life, the kind of sex life she wanted, but things she did more as a matter of course, she has come to enjoy with me, to look forward to with me, to actively pursue with me, and to actively expand upon with me...

That is pretty sufficient motivation.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Just one example...threesomes. I accept her reasons and thought process behind them with her ex, and I believe her reasoning in why she would not want them with me.


This is confusing to me because I wouldn't think you would actually want to have a threesome. Would you want to share your wife with another man or woman, for real?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> This is confusing to me because I wouldn't think you would actually want to have a threesome. Would you want to share your wife with another man or woman, for real?


Oh hell no I wouldn't. I don't share.

My point in bringing that up though is that it is an example of something she has done in the past, enjoyed in the past, but has taken off the table as something she would do with me for her own reasons. My wants in this matter were largely immaterial to her decision. We did talk about a hypothetical threesome, and I suppose saying it is absolutely off the table is not quite accurate. She said that she would give it more thought if it was something I had a very deep desire to do, but that she couldn't cross that bridge until if we ever came to it.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

samyeagar said:


> Just one example...threesomes. I accept her reasons and thought process behind them with her ex, and I believe her reasoning in why she would not want them with me.


If the acts she refuses to do now all revolved around a 3rd party or even having sex in places that could get you into serious trouble as an older person - then I understand that fully. If it's related to things like BJ's, HJ's, or other acts that aren't "dangerous" and just between you and your spouse - then that's a different issue in my mind that I would need an explanation for why.


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> I think people should examine their own motives in finding out these kinds of details. Do you really need the info to make a decision about being with this person (which was totally true in your case, sam), or are we actually just so insecure/jealous in general that we can't handle the idea that our new partner ever had a great time having sex with someone else?
> 
> Again, the reasons we feel jealous are personal.


Well I don't think it is necessarily jealousy _at all_. 

For me it is about her wanting me as her _male_ partner. I don't want to be her sugar daddy, her retirement plan, her car washer, her home renovation labor. I want to be _*the man*_ she desires above all other men.

I will admit there is projection when I consider sexual interest to be a strong indication of value. For me, I consider sex with my wife to be a very exclusive and personal experience. I value sex for the intimacy. If sex is _just sex_ to someone, they may have a totally different view of this entire topic than I do.

With that backdrop, if my wife values sex with me more than with other men, I feel she values me more. I don't have to be the best in every aspect of sex, but overall I want to be the most desired. Because this is how I feel about sex with my wife.

I do want to do nice things for my wife, and I am pleased to buy her nice things, wash her car, and fix up the house. But I want to do this not as if I were some disposable hired help, but as the man she loves, respects, and lusts for.

Men are acutely aware of the phenomenon of Alpha for fvcks, Beta for buck$. If she just isn't into her husband sexually, it seems to mean she selected him not for who he is but for what he will do for her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said:


> Men are acutely aware of the phenomenon of Alpha for fvcks, Beta for buck$. If she just isn't into her husband sexually, it seems to mean she selected him not for who he is but for what he will do for her.


You don't get to speak for all men. Some men would not feel this way at all. My husband doesn't.


----------



## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> You don't get to speak for all men. Some men would not feel this way at all. My husband doesn't.


Are you saying that you're not into your husband sexually and that he's okay with it, or are you attacking what you view as a dissenting opinion on some other basis?


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> You don't get to speak for all men. Some men would not feel this way at all. My husband doesn't.


As I said, people who don't put the kind of value on sex that I do will have a different view of this topic. For some people, sex is just sex. It doesn't mean anything in terms of emotions or how they value the other person. Someone with that view of sex would not place any meaning on the past acts their spouse had with previous lovers. It was _just sex_.


----------



## john117

Faithful Wife said:


> You don't get to speak for all men. Some men would not feel this way at all. My husband doesn't.



Move into the world of the 2% to 4% where I live and you will be surprised to find what happens to Alpha males vs Beta males and their significant others...

The aphorism offered is quite apropos especially with a larger sample size like what I have around me...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said:


> As I said, people who don't put the kind of value on sex that I do will have a different view of this topic. For some people, sex is just sex. It doesn't mean anything in terms of emotions or how they value the other person. Someone with that view of sex would not place any meaning on the past acts their spouse had with previous lovers. It was _just sex_.


And people can also have "just sex" with some people and have "very meaningful intimacy and sex" with others, by their choice. And some people may have "just sex" when they are younger but later in their lives, choose to only have meaningful connected sex.

Or some people may have connected sex only and all throughout their lives with just one person.

Or some people may have "just sex" throughout their whole life with just one person.

People have different reasons for having sex with different people, and we never get to decide for others what their reasons are or were in the past. There is not just two camps, "just sex" and "just meaning". There is much more to it than that, much more variety in sexuality and in personal experience.


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> Move into the world of the 2% to 4% where I live and you will be surprised to find what happens to Alpha males vs Beta males and their significant others...
> 
> The aphorism offered is quite apropos especially with a larger sample size like what I have around me...


If everyone around you seems to be the same as each other, then I wouldn't feel you have a very big sample size at all.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> Are you saying that you're not into your husband sexually and that he's okay with it, or are you attacking what you view as a dissenting opinion on some other basis?


I did not attack a dissenting opinion, I stated a fact, which was that one man cannot speak for all men.

As to the rest of your question, you clearly know nothing about me so I won't bother explaining it to you, since stating a fact to you reads "attack", therefore I have no expectation that you'd understand anything else I have to say.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> Move into the world of the 2% to 4% where I live and you will be surprised to find what happens to Alpha males vs Beta males and their significant others...
> 
> The aphorism offered is quite apropos especially with a larger sample size like what I have around me...


2-4% world means what? 2-4% top financially?


----------



## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> I did not attack a dissenting opinion, I stated a fact, which was that one man cannot speak for all men.
> 
> As to the rest of your question, you clearly know nothing about me so I won't bother explaining it to you, since stating a fact to you reads "attack", therefore I have no expectation that you'd understand anything else I have to say.


I'm a man of few words, only knowing a few.


----------



## john117

treyvion said:


> 2-4% world means what? 2-4% top financially?



Yes


----------



## LongWalk

Explain more, John.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> Yes


Well. The top 1% would be a nice place or the top .1%...

In that 2-4% range there are beta's and alphas...

A man could be able to provide most of the spoils of the world and still treated as an indentured servant.

He could even be attractive and physical. But if he allows himself to be treated that way and goes along with it, it's a well off beta.


----------



## john117

The 2-4% is incomes from $250-500k a year, the vast majority one earner, and most managerial or executive, or professional like law or health care types. 

Most are the alpha type but there are exceptions. One of my neighbors was some kind of investment advisor, who was as beta as a Sony video tape (look it up youngsters) and looked the part too. Indifferent trophy wife, great kids. He decided to leave the Midwest after a couple years, sold his home at a $200k loss and laughed it off. He was making about 5 times that annually... Beta revenge I guess.

Most alpha execs here drive the phallic symbol sports sedans, mostly Japanese, wife with European SUV, nanny, kids in private colleges, etc. Not too difficult to see who the trophy spouses are. The betas drive boat cars usually. Fairly good divorce rate, actually.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> The 2-4% is incomes from $250-500k a year, the vast majority one earner, and most managerial or executive, or professional like law or health care types.


I just looked it up and $250k is 2%, another said that $500K and up is .5%.

I know the types. 



john117 said:


> Most are the alpha type but there are exceptions. One of my neighbors was some kind of investment advisor, who was as beta as a Sony video tape (look it up youngsters) and looked the part too. Indifferent trophy wife, great kids. He decided to leave the Midwest after a couple years, sold his home at a $200k loss and laughed it off. He was making about 5 times that annually... Beta revenge I guess.


Some of the men in that range are sexually starved... We had a guy on this forum was a handsome and built $300k guy, with a trophy wife, who wouldn't give him any affection no matter what he did, was always an Alpha all his life broken down by his wife.



john117 said:


> Most alpha execs here drive the phallic symbol sports sedans, mostly Japanese, wife with European SUV, nanny, kids in private colleges, etc. Not too difficult to see who the trophy spouses are. The betas drive boat cars usually. Fairly good divorce rate, actually.


I will be sure to get a phallic vehicle.

And phallic everything else while I'm at it.


----------



## john117

The sad part is that the super alphas are for the most part car clueless. Either they buy a decent car but can't drive it or they avoid buying real adventuresome cars.... I've only seen a couple of people who show their alpha the right way (Maserati Quatroporte, Audi R8, Dodge Challenger R/T, Saleen anything )

Even when they buy the safe choices they don't get the right vehicle. Lots of 7 series BMW but not the more impressive M5 . No AMG on their Mercedes duh...

Of course how many women in TAM would drop their, ehem, guard for an Alfa Romeo 8c? I would and I'm a guy 

Here's what it looks like in case you find one on the neighbor's driveway...

View attachment 26153


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> The sad part is that the super alphas are for the most part car clueless. Either they buy a decent car but can't drive it or they avoid buying real adventuresome cars.... I've only seen a couple of people who show their alpha the right way (Maserati Quatroporte, Audi R8, Dodge Challenger R/T, Saleen anything )
> 
> Even when they buy the safe choices they don't get the right vehicle. Lots of 7 series BMW but not the more impressive M5 . No AMG on their Mercedes duh...
> 
> Of course how many women in TAM would drop their, ehem, guard for an Alfa Romeo 8c? I would and I'm a guy
> 
> Here's what it looks like in case you find one on the neighbor's driveway...
> 
> View attachment 26153


She looks proud to represent that household.


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> People have different reasons for having sex with different people, and we never get to decide for others what their reasons are or were in the past.


True, but we get to decide what we think about them refusing in the present _without a reasonable explanation_.

My wife had sex on the beach under the boardwalk with at least one boyfriend. Certainly she enjoyed it, and she looks fondly back on it. I am certain she would not want to do it now with me, and there are several understandable reasons I can imagine she would come up with.

It doesn't matter if this was hookup sex or in a long term relationship, or what she thought of it at the time. There is a reasonable explanation why she would not want to do it with me today. So it is not a problem for me that we never had sex in the day under the boardwalk.

If there was an act for which there is no reasonable explanation why she wouldn't do it with me, yet she had fun doing it with other men in the past, I would determine she just wasn't as into me as she was (or still is) with the other man.


----------



## Thor

john117 said:


> Saleen anything


Saleen Dion? 

I'm not in the 2% yet, but I am the car nut in the neighborhood. I prefer the understated approach to cars. My current ride is an Audi A8L. It won't beat an R8 or hot BMW around the track, but for a high speed run across Wyoming (not on interstates) the A8L is the way to go! I don't need or want a car which screams at people to look at me. I don't need that validation.


----------



## john117

L? Was the regular A8 too small?? 

I drive a Mini S...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said:


> True, but we get to decide what we think about them refusing in the present _without a reasonable explanation_.
> 
> If there was an act for which there is no reasonable explanation why she wouldn't do it with me, yet she had fun doing it with other men in the past, I would determine she just wasn't as into me as she was (or still is) with the other man.


Yes, you (anyone) gets to feel however they feel about it, with or without a reasonable explanation. For some people, they would still be hurt and feel they were "owed" some particular sexual act even if there was a "reasonable explanation".

And you (anyone) could determine that you think "if she did this, it meant X". Correct.

But it just because you think that doesn't make it true. You can think it, but it still doesn't MEAN what you think it means just because that is your disposition and bias to think such things.

So she (any she in this example) would also have every right to feel that she doesn't want anything to do with a man who would judge her for something she did which has nothing to do with him, and that she wouldn't want to be with a man who thinks what she did meant X. Because to her, "a man who thinks what I did meant X is a man who is going to be inwardly insecure and jealous about many other things and I refuse to be ruled by someone else's life script which has nothing to do with me".


----------



## Faithful Wife

My H's past and mine both are quite colorful and let's just say "alternative". We both have no regrets and had a really great time in our lives before meeting. We both took pause when hearing some of the details of each other's stories because we didn't know each other well enough at first to know if we actually had anything to worry about or not. 

We took the gamble and are very happy, faithful and sexually active as a result.

His past is something I'm really grateful for now...if you know what I mean.


----------



## Personal

Faithful Wife said:


> My H's past and mine both are quite colorful and let's just say "alternative".


So was mine.



Faithful Wife said:


> We took the gamble and are very happy, faithful and sexually active as a result.


It's such a great place to be, regardless of how you get there.



Faithful Wife said:


> His past is something I'm really grateful for now...if you know what I mean.


Yes I do.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Thor said:


> As I said, people who don't put the kind of value on sex that I do will have a different view of this topic. For some people, sex is just sex. It doesn't mean anything in terms of emotions or how they value the other person. Someone with that view of sex would not place any meaning on the past acts their spouse had with previous lovers. It was _just sex_.


Seems to me people who separate sex and emotion are more likely to commit adultery. "Baby, 'It was only sex'"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, you (anyone) gets to feel however they feel about it, with or without a reasonable explanation. For some people, they would still be hurt and feel they were "owed" some particular sexual act even if there was a "reasonable explanation".
> 
> And you (anyone) could determine that you think "if she did this, it meant X". Correct.
> 
> *But it just because you think that doesn't make it true. You can think it, but it still doesn't MEAN what you think it means just because that is your disposition and bias to think such things.*
> 
> So she (any she in this example) would also have every right to feel that she doesn't want anything to do with a man who would judge her for something she did which has nothing to do with him, and that she wouldn't want to be with a man who thinks what she did meant X. Because to her, "a man who thinks what I did meant X is a man who is going to be inwardly insecure and jealous about many other things and I refuse to be ruled by someone else's life script which has nothing to do with me".


This starts to get into some very interesting areas of psychology and philosophy for that matter. People in large part create their own reality, and for them, it is absolutely real and true, especially when you get into reality of the mind as opposed to the physical reality around us.

If a person thinks that someone did something for a specific reason, to THEM, in their reality, that reason is true. For most people, that personal reality can be changed as more information becomes available and is processed. That is where communication comes in. The other person can provide information that may change the other persons reality. That is where empathy and sympathy come in, and why in most cases a simple "just because" answer doesn't help because it provides no useful information to alter ones reality. That is the heart of personal compatibility...can two people reconcile their personal realities in such a way as to be as similar to the others as to make a functioning relationship.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> So she (any she in this example) would also have every right to feel that she doesn't want anything to do with a man who would judge her for something she did which has nothing to do with him, and that she wouldn't want to be with a man who thinks what she did meant X. Because to her, "a man who thinks what I did meant X is a man who is going to be inwardly insecure and jealous about many other things and I refuse to be ruled by someone else's life script which has nothing to do with me".


I still think this is only part of the equation. You consistently frame the issue as judging what you did in the past when you did not know him. But the other half is what you are willing to do now. To ignore that misses a key point.

I also think that this conversation, as a whole, as ignored the unwillingness to provide a reason as in issue in its self. Not doing so is a red flag to me, indicate bigger problems in the relationship. Being unwilling to communicate with your spouse on something like this is a problem that I expect would effect other aspect of a relationship.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

samyeagar said:


> If a person thinks that someone did something for a specific reason, to THEM, in their reality, that reason is true. For most people, that personal reality can be changed as more information becomes available and is processed. That is where communication comes in. The other person can provide information that may change the other persons reality. That is where empathy and sympathy come in, and why in most cases a simple "just because" answer doesn't help because it provides no useful information to alter ones reality. That is the heart of personal compatibility...can two people reconcile their personal realities in such a way as to be as similar to the others as to make a functioning relationship.


I would add that an unwillingness to try and change this reality through discussion and communication says something.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Lila said:


> Relationship dynamics also plays a big role in determining the types of sex acts that a woman might allow in her marriage.
> 
> For example -
> 
> Wife enthusiastically participated in D/s play with her ex-bf, with her being the D. Part of that play involved pegging. She was able to enjoy the sex act because of the dynamics in that relationship.
> 
> Fast forward to her relationship with her husband. He asks her to use a strap-on on him. She refuses even though this was something she truly enjoyed doing with her ex. Why? She doesn't want to play D to her hubby's s. It's a mind block that she can't overcome. She wants to continue to see him as the D in the relationship. Try as she might, she can't separate the sex act from the day to day interactions with her husband.
> 
> Does she enjoy the act of pegging? Based on her previous experiences the answer is yes.
> 
> Would she enjoy pegging her husband? No.
> 
> Sometimes there's more to a NO than what's on the surface.


Wow...that example works but what would make you think of that?


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> But it just because you think that doesn't make it true. You can think it, but it still doesn't MEAN what you think it means just because that is your disposition and bias to think such things.


Agreed it doesn't mean she puts the same meaning on it that I do.

Your posts have challenged me on this topic and I appreciate it. Something I learned over the past few years is that my wife's belief system is very different than mine, though she hid it carefully from me. To her, sex is really only just sex. I am sure she really enjoyed it with her boyfriends on the beach, in the car, camping, etc. But to her it was a physical pleasure and a tool to get what she wanted. If she could have gotten what she wanted by cooking them omelettes she would have done that cheerfully instead.

She doesn't "owe" me sex in any of those places. But it still stings that she wanted those other men enough to do what she did, but she doesn't want _me_ enough to do those things with me. 

The bottom line is that I probably made it far too easy on her from the beginning. I treated her respectfully and I tried to give her everything she wanted. Because I was in love, and that's what I thought was what a loving person did.



Faithful Wife said:


> So she (any she in this example) would also have every right to feel that she doesn't want anything to do with a man who would judge her for something she did which has nothing to do with him, and that she wouldn't want to be with a man who thinks what she did meant X. Because to her, "a man who thinks what I did mean X is a man who is going to be inwardly insecure and jealous about many other things and I refuse to be ruled by someone else's life script which has nothing to do with me".


Not necessarily is it jealousy or insecurity. It could be a fundamental difference in values and relationship template. I also don't think that men commonly judge a woman for her previous sex life if she is happily engaged in a similar sex life with her new man. I don't need my wife to ask for handcuffs like she did with a previous boyfriend, as long as she is cheerfully desiring something more than occasional duty sex with me.

And indeed then there is a fundamental difference between the man and woman which likely makes a relationship impossible.


----------



## samyeagar

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would add that an unwillingness to try and change this reality through discussion and communication says something.


This is what I was alluding to in some of my other comments...the bigger issue for me would be the unwillingness, or inability to help me understand, far more so than any acts.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

samyeagar said:


> This is what I was alluding to in some of my other comments...the bigger issue for me would be the unwillingness, or inability to help me understand, far more so than any acts.


I would quibble in that it would be the unwillingness that bothers me. My wife has tried and failed to make me understand things about her at times and so have I. So I am sympathetic to the idea that a partner could try and yet be unsuccessful.

But an unwillingness to try would be a huge issue.


----------



## samyeagar

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would quibble in that it would be the unwillingness that bothers me. My wife has tried and failed to make me understand things about her at times and so have I. So I am sympathetic to the idea that a partner could try and yet be unsuccessful.
> 
> But an unwillingness to try would be a huge issue.


Point taken. The reason I included inability is because sometimes, no matter the desire and effort, there are some things that simply can't be reconciled, and some of those things can be deal breakers.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thor said:


> *Not necessarily is it jealousy or insecurity.* It could be a fundamental difference in values and relationship template. I also don't think that men commonly judge a woman for her previous sex life if she is happily engaged in a similar sex life with her new man. I don't need my wife to ask for handcuffs like she did with a previous boyfriend, as long as she is cheerfully desiring something more than occasional duty sex with me.


Right, it isn't necessarily jealousy or insecurity BUT the woman in my example gets to decide for herself "what it means"...the same way the man gets to decide for himself what her previous motivations were...even though NEITHER of these things the man or woman thinks makes it true for the other one.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, it isn't necessarily jealousy or insecurity BUT the woman in my example gets to decide for herself "what it means"...the same way the man gets to decide for himself what her previous motivations were...even though NEITHER of these things the man or woman thinks makes it true for the other one.


Perception IS reality


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> If a person thinks that someone did something for a specific reason, to THEM, in their reality, that reason is true.


Right it is true for them in their reality.

But this doesn't make it true for the other person's reality.

There is a lot of people saying "this means this and that means that" on this thread...but I'm saying, no, it doesn't. It may mean you will believe it is true and you may act on it as if it is true. But we NEVER get to create reality for another person especially when it comes to guessing what their real motivations were.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Perception IS reality


Only for YOU.

YOUR perception is NOT reality for anyone but YOU.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Perception IS reality


If I understand what you are saying, you perceive that SHE feels like this or SHE feels like that in the desire department. YOUR perceptions does not reality of her feelings make.


----------



## jld

Lila said:


> I've led a crazy life  Just kidding. I read BDSM erotica.
> 
> I'm not interested in actually participating in it, but by nature, I'm drawn to that which I can't comprehend fully. The underlying dynamics in those relationships blows my mind. The control freak in me can't grasp submission. :scratchhead:


Maybe you're a dominant?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Only for YOU.
> 
> YOUR perception is NOT reality for anyone but YOU.


Right...and that's the point. Everyone can only live in THEIR reality, so ultimately, the only reality that a person has control over is their own. Put bluntly, the only reality that truly matters is ones personal reality.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Oh one thing about doing things with other partners that you don't do with your spouse. That WAS our reality early in our marriage. The acts performed with others was done under duress, and the duress was significantly unpleasant to me. It was after years of trust building that I was able to let fear and revulsion go. And he never once asked me for things that scared or repelled me.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Only for YOU.
> 
> YOUR perception is NOT reality for anyone but YOU.


Yeah, but THEIR perception is how they percieve you and it might not reflect reality at all, simply their reality.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Right...and that's the point. Everyone can only live in THEIR reality, so ultimately, the only reality that a person has control over is their own. Put bluntly, the only reality that truly matters is ones personal reality.


But if you do not understand that you can't make another person's reality, then you will assume your reality is the same as theirs and this is NOT true. If you feel this way, you will be trying to deny another person's reality. Which will NEVER go over well and will always cause a rift between you.

Try to deny someone else's reality by being so arrogant that you feel their reality "must be" the same as yours, and you will quickly make that person your enemy.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> If I understand what you are saying, you perceive that SHE feels like this or SHE feels like that in the desire department. YOUR perceptions does not reality of her feelings make.


If I believe through my perceptions of her words and actions that she feels a certain way, then to me, in my reality, it doesn't matter what her reality is. She may think I am the hottest guy on the planet, but if I perceive her words and actions as I am the ugliest, then for all intents and purposes, I am the ugliest. She can say or do things differently in an attempt to alter my reality, to help me believe differently.

This kind of gets to the root of the five love languages and communication in general. I can convey a certain message, but if I don't do it in a way the other person can understand with the meaning I want to convey, then I can have all the thoughts and feelings in the world, but they are useless because I fail to communicate them.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> But if you do not understand that you can't make another person's reality, then* you will assume your reality is the same as theirs and this is NOT true.* If you feel this way, you will be trying to deny another person's reality. Which will NEVER go over well and will always cause a rift between you.
> 
> Try to deny someone else's reality by being so arrogant that you feel their reality "must be" the same as yours, and you will quickly make that person your enemy.


Ahh...this is where sympathy and empathy come in...helping to reconcile different personal realities, and preventing that arrogance of which you speak. Realizing that another persons reality is different from your own, and accepting that.

Being willing to listen and understand the other person, allowing them to influence your own reality is what communication is all about.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> If I believe through my perceptions of her words and actions that she feels a certain way, then to me, in my reality, it doesn't matter what her reality is. She may think I am the hottest guy on the planet, but if I perceive her words and actions as I am the ugliest, then for all intents and purposes, I am the ugliest. She can say or do things differently in an attempt to alter my reality, to help me believe differently.
> 
> This kind of gets to the root of the five love languages and communication in general. I can convey a certain message, but if I don't do it in a way the other person can understand with the meaning I want to convey, then I can have all the thoughts and feelings in the world, but they are useless because I fail to communicate them.


Sweet!

Communication is key. Our actions may not say what we think they are, it depends on the audiences viewpoint.

Man, this is tough.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> If I believe through my perceptions of her words and actions that she feels a certain way, then to me, in my reality, it doesn't matter what her reality is. She may think I am the hottest guy on the planet, but if I perceive her words and actions as I am the ugliest, then for all intents and purposes, I am the ugliest. She can say or do things differently in an attempt to alter my reality, to help me believe differently.
> 
> This kind of gets to the root of the five love languages and communication in general. I can convey a certain message, but if I don't do it in a way the other person can understand with the meaning I want to convey, then I can have all the thoughts and feelings in the world, but they are useless because I fail to communicate them.


Right, but let's say you are anorexic. Your reality is that you are "fat" but you are actually dangerously thin.

Nothing anyone else says about you will change your reality. You would need a lot of therapy to understand that the perception you are having is influenced by a mental disorder.

And in that case, it isn't going to make any difference if the anorexic person's partner tries to "help them see things differently".

This is why the only healthy way to see this is to understand that you are creating only your reality, but if you try to create it for someone else, you are strongly insulting that other person.

When my H and I met, I was going through a phase where I was insecure about certain parts of my body and wasn't really wanting to just strut myself naked...I wanted to hide under covers or in dim lighting.

Due to the weird reasons I felt insecure to begin with, I did actually think my perception was correct and therefore, it must also be correct for my H. When he would say "um, no, you are just insecure but I don't think that way" I just thought he was being kind.

But the problem was, I kept mentally insisting that he DID see me as I saw myself, but he DID NOT.

Beyond that, I kept expecting him to caretake my insecurity and allow me to hide under covers. I expected him to feel bad for how bad I was feeling.

Thank GOD he did not. Instead he got mad at me, and now I understand why. When this man has done nothing but love me and be majorly attracted to me and lustful and has never ONCE thought anything like what I was "accusing" him of...it wasn't right for me to lay my sh*t on his doorstep and act like it was HIS reality when it wasn't.

That snapped me out of it, very quickly.

This is what I mean by trying to "force" your perception of reality on someone else. They will be angry at you for it, as they should be, because it isn't fair to them.


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> And in that case, it isn't going to make any difference if the anorexic person's partner tries to "help them see things differently".
> 
> This is why the only healthy way to see this is to understand that you are creating only your reality, but if you try to create it for someone else, you are strongly insulting that other person.


Certainly every person is going to see things the way they want to, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your own opinion, too. How is that insulting?

I don't understand how a different opinion is insulting. It's just a different opinion. It has no power that we do not give to it. 

You cannot create someone else's reality, but you can influence it. And in the case of an anorexic, it would be very important to try to influence it.



> Thank GOD he did not. Instead he got mad at me, and now I understand why. When this man has done nothing but love me and be majorly attracted to me and lustful and has never ONCE thought anything like what I was "accusing" him of...it wasn't right for me to lay my sh*t on his doorstep and act like it was HIS reality when it wasn't.
> 
> That snapped me out of it, very quickly.
> 
> This is what I mean by trying to "force" your perception of reality on someone else. They will be angry at you for it, as they should be, because it isn't fair to them.


I think that's one way of handling it. And if you are happy with that, that's great. 

But I think another way of dealing with that could've been through active listening. Active listening doesn't mean giving in to what you wanted. It's just understanding what you wanted. He could've still just said no, and you two could've agreed to disagree. You each still have agency.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> Certainly every person is going to see things the way they want to, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your own opinion, too. How is that insulting?
> 
> I don't understand how a different opinion is insulting. It's just a different opinion. It has no power that we do not give to it.
> 
> You cannot create someone else's reality, but you can influence it. And in the case of an anorexic, it would be very important to try to influence it.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's one way of handling it. And if you are happy with that, that's great.
> 
> But I think another way of dealing with that could've been through active listening. Active listening doesn't mean giving in to what you wanted. It's just understanding what you wanted. He could've still just said no, and you two could've agreed to disagree. You each still have agency.


Several men on here are saying their feelings about "wife did this, it means x" is not an opinion, they are saying it is a fact, that it is reality (for the wife).

That's the problem. Opinions are never a problem, projecting your reality upon someone else as "truth" is the only problem I'm talking about here.

My husband did actively listen to me about my insecurities and he felt bad that I felt bad. But when I tried to project my reality upon him as if it was true for him too, that's when *I* wasn't active listening (in your terms). *I* was the one insisting his reality wasn't true, that only mine was true.

So when I truly active listened (instead of projecting), I heard him say "don't put your reality upon me it is not fair, it is not my reality, and it hurts me that you would try to insist that it is".

It was on ME to active listen. He already had done so.


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> Several men on here are saying their feelings about "wife did this, it means x" is not an opinion, they are saying it is a fact, that it is reality (for the wife).
> 
> That's the problem. Opinions are never a problem, projecting your reality upon someone else as "truth" is the only problem I'm talking about here.
> 
> My husband did actively listen to me about my insecurities and he felt bad that I felt bad. But when I tried to project my reality upon him as if it was true for him too, that's when *I* wasn't active listening (in your terms). *I* was the one insisting his reality wasn't true, that only mine was true.
> 
> So when I truly active listened (instead of projecting), I heard him say "don't put your reality upon me it is not fair, it is not my reality, and it hurts me that you would try to insist that it is".
> 
> It was on ME to active listen. He already had done so.


But you said he got mad, right? Okay, maybe he just ran out of patience.

I know from personal experience how strong insecurity is. I feel like I've made major strides in that area since coming to TAM.

For me, insecurity is all about not giving my power away, not letting other people define me. I've done that most of my life. I don't want to do it anymore.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Several men on here are saying their feelings about "wife did this, it means x" is not an opinion, they are saying it is a fact, that it is reality (for the wife).
> 
> That's the problem. Opinions are never a problem, projecting your reality upon someone else as "truth" is the only problem I'm talking about here.
> 
> My husband did actively listen to me about my insecurities and he felt bad that I felt bad. But when I tried to project my reality upon him as if it was true for him too, that's when *I* wasn't active listening (in your terms). *I* was the one insisting his reality wasn't true, that only mine was true.
> 
> So when I truly active listened (instead of projecting), I heard him say "don't put your reality upon me it is not fair, it is not my reality, and it hurts me that you would try to insist that it is".
> 
> It was on ME to active listen. He already had done so.


Good stuff.

But I would add that as a husband if I find my wife's reality to be incompatible with my reality, to the point it is damaging to my self esteem and self confidence...

...then I have the option of removing my reality from the environs of her reality through divorce. 

....if I'm so inclined. Then I have the opportunity to go out and find a woman who's sexual chi flows with mine. And a woman who does not hide her past from me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> But you said he got mad, right? Okay, maybe he just ran out of patience.
> 
> I know from personal experience how strong insecurity is. I feel like I've made major strides in that area since coming to TAM.
> 
> For me, insecurity is all about not giving my power away, not letting other people define me. I've done that most of my life. I don't want to do it anymore.


He got mad at me because I tried to tell him that his reality was the same as my insecure reality.

Basically I told him "oh, you are sweet to say you don't feel the way I fear you feel, but I know you really do feel that way".

This is the same as calling him a liar.

That's why he got mad. And when he did get mad, it snapped me out of my ridiculous presumption that I could create someone else's reality. He was right to be mad. That was his authentic reaction to my arrogance of insisting his reality is different than he claimed it was.


----------



## Faithful Wife

To bandit...um, yes...that's what I'm getting at. Try to project your reality upon someone else, they have the right to want to get away from you.


----------



## bandit.45

In a heart that is one with nature, though the body contends, there is no violence. 

And in the heart that is not one with nature, though the body is at rest, there is always violence.

Be therefore like the prow of a boat: it cleaves water, yet it leaves in its wake... water unbroken.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> In a heart that is one with nature, though the body contends, there is no violence.
> 
> And in the heart that is not one with nature, though the body is at rest, there is always violence.
> 
> Be therefore like the prow of a boat: it cleaves water, yet it leaves in its wake... water unbroken.


Very nice. From?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, but let's say you are anorexic. Your reality is that you are "fat" but you are actually dangerously thin.
> 
> Nothing anyone else says about you will change your reality. You would need a lot of therapy to understand that the perception you are having is influenced by a mental disorder.
> 
> And in that case, it isn't going to make any difference if the anorexic person's partner tries to "help them see things differently".
> 
> This is why the only healthy way to see this is to understand that you are creating only your reality, but if you try to create it for someone else, you are strongly insulting that other person.
> 
> When my H and I met, I was going through a phase where I was insecure about certain parts of my body and wasn't really wanting to just strut myself naked...I wanted to hide under covers or in dim lighting.
> 
> Due to the weird reasons I felt insecure to begin with, I did actually think my perception was correct and therefore, it must also be correct for my H. When he would say "um, no, you are just insecure but I don't think that way" I just thought he was being kind.
> 
> But the problem was, I kept mentally insisting that he DID see me as I saw myself, but he DID NOT.
> 
> Beyond that, I kept expecting him to caretake my insecurity and allow me to hide under covers. I expected him to feel bad for how bad I was feeling.
> 
> Thank GOD he did not. Instead he got mad at me, and now I understand why. When this man has done nothing but love me and be majorly attracted to me and lustful and has never ONCE thought anything like what I was "accusing" him of...it wasn't right for me to lay my sh*t on his doorstep and act like it was HIS reality when it wasn't.
> 
> That snapped me out of it, very quickly.
> 
> *This is what I mean by trying to "force" your perception of reality on someone else. They will be angry at you for it, as they should be, because it isn't fair to them*.


Didn't your husband force his reality upon you? That is certainly one way to look at it. What he actually did was communicate with you in such a way as to change your own reality to become closer aligned to his.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Several men on here are saying their feelings about "wife did this, it means x" is not an opinion, they are saying it is a fact, that it is reality (for the wife).
> 
> That's the problem. Opinions are never a problem, projecting your reality upon someone else as "truth" is the only problem I'm talking about here.
> 
> My husband did actively listen to me about my insecurities and he felt bad that I felt bad. But when I tried to project my reality upon him as if it was true for him too, that's when *I* wasn't active listening (in your terms). *I* was the one insisting his reality wasn't true, that only mine was true.
> 
> So when I truly active listened (instead of projecting), I heard him say *"don't put your reality upon me it is not fair, it is not my reality, and it hurts me that you would try to insist that it is*".
> 
> It was on ME to active listen. He already had done so.


And the way this was reconciled was you accepting his reality as your new reality.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Didn't your husband force his reality upon you? That is certainly one way to look at it. What he actually did was communicate with you in such a way as to change your own reality to become closer aligned to his.


No, he didn't force it upon me. He just placed a boundary on what he would "listen to" any longer. He would no longer "listen to" any message from me that was in any way some version of "I know you feel the way I am saying you feel".

When he did this, it snapped me out of the fog I was in. The fog that made me believe I was "right".

I was never "right" about his reality, I was only "right" about mine.

After he placed that boundary, and I changed MY reality, then our realities matched (and they still do). But he never forced his reality on me, he placed a boundary, big difference.

If I had decided to hold on to my original reality, he would have been fine with that, as long as I didn't try to force it on him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And the way this was reconciled was you accepting his reality as your new reality.


Nope. It was me realizing I can in no way "make" someone else's reality be the same as mine.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> He got mad at me because I tried to tell him that his reality was the same as my insecure reality.
> 
> Basically I told him "oh, you are sweet to say you don't feel the way I fear you feel, but I know you really do feel that way".
> 
> This is the same as calling him a liar.
> 
> *That's why he got mad. And when he did get mad, it snapped me out of my ridiculous presumption that I could create someone else's reality. He was right to be mad. That was his authentic reaction to my arrogance of insisting his reality is different than he claimed it was*.


So in other words, he found a way of causing you to alter your reality through communication. Communication of a type that enabled you to believe him, and accept his reality as your own.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> So in other words, he found a way of causing you to alter your reality through communication. Communication of a type that enabled you to believe him, and accept his reality as your own.


Sam, do you not understand what a boundary is?

He never required me to see his reality as mine. He never told me that my reality wasn't real FOR ME.

All he did was place a boundary upon the behavior he would accept in our relationship, as in, he said "do not ever tell me again that I am lying about my reality".


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Nope. It was me realizing I can in no way "make" someone else's reality be the same as mine.


Yes you can. Not by altering their reality...you have no control over that, but by altering your reality...you made his reality match yours by altering the only thing you could...your own.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Very nice. From?


Master Po....grasshopper.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam, do you not understand what a boundary is?
> 
> He never required me to see his reality as mine. He never told me that my reality wasn't real FOR ME.
> 
> All he did was place a boundary upon the behavior he would accept in our relationship, as in, he said "do not ever tell me again that I am lying about my reality".


Right, and that boundary communicated a message to you, and you decided for yourself to accept that message...the point is, he communicated in such a way as to enable you to change your reality. There were probably lots of other ways he could have tried to make you understand his reality that would never in a million years gotten you to alter yours.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Yes you can. Not by altering their reality...you have no control over that, but by altering your reality...you made his reality match yours by altering the only thing you could...your own.


Of course you can choose to change YOUR reality.

The only important part of my quote was that you cannot choose another's reality.

And that is really the only point I'm making here.

So...back to the regularly scheduled program of a bunch of people who believe they actually CAN choose another's reality, by thinking that "if she did x, it means y".


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Right, and that boundary communicated a message to you, and you decided for yourself to accept that message...the point is, he communicated in such a way as to enable you to change your reality. There were probably lots of other ways he could have tried to make you understand his reality that would never in a million years gotten you to alter yours.


The only thing that matters in this discussion (from my end) is that no one can "make" someone else's reality be different.

What we choose to do with our own realities is on us, regardless of what others do or don't do. They can influence, and we can choose to ignore or accept that influence.

I'm thinking you are having a hard time with this because you want to hold on to your insecurities, and you want your wife to somehow make it better in your reality.

That's not an insult, it is just what I've observed in your behavior (that you don't seem to let go of your insecurities, regardless of knowing logically that they don't make sense).


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course you can choose to change YOUR reality.
> 
> The only important part of my quote was that you cannot choose another's reality.
> 
> And that is really the only point I'm making here.
> 
> So...back to the regularly scheduled program of a bunch of people who believe they actually CAN choose another's reality, by thinking that "if she did x, it means y".


Well, MY feelings are an objective reality. How *I* feel is real. How *you* felt was actually not based on reality. I think there is a real difference there. Some feelings are just not based on an objective reality. That they are present does not make them well and good. What your DH did was not just alter your reality to MATCH his but ground you in objective truth.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> The only thing that matters in this discussion (from my end) is that no one can "make" someone else's reality be different.
> 
> What we choose to do with our own realities is on us, regardless of what others do or don't do. They can influence, and we can choose to ignore or accept that influence.
> 
> I'm thinking you are having a hard time with this because you want to hold on to your insecurities, and you want your wife to somehow make it better in your reality.
> 
> That's not an insult, it is just what I've observed in your behavior (that you don't seem to let go of your insecurities, regardless of knowing logically that they don't make sense).


Your reality is that he is insecure. 

His reality is that he is perfectly within his rights to feel the way he does.


----------



## Faithful Wife

True, bandit.

But his wife's reality is a third reality, and in hers, his reality (that he has reason to be insecure) is not true.


----------



## NobodySpecial

bandit.45 said:


> Your reality is that he is insecure.
> 
> His reality is that he is perfectly within his rights to feel the way he does.


There are two things here. There is choosing a reality that has some possibility of affecting a change that he might desire. And there is a measure of objective reality of "reality". He has every right to do whatever he damned well chooses. How is that working?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course you can choose to change YOUR reality.
> 
> The only important part of my quote was that you cannot choose another's reality.
> 
> And that is really the only point I'm making here.
> 
> So...back to the regularly scheduled program of a bunch of people who believe they actually CAN choose another's reality, by thinking that "if she did x, it means y".


But to that person, X DOES mean Y, in their reality, and that is where communication comes in...one person explaining why they feel X means Y to them, and the other person explaining why X does NOT mean Y to THEM, and if done correctly, in the end, their realities align. That is why many people would have a hard time accepting the "just because I said so" answer as to why. It shows little willingness to even acknowledge the other persons reality, let alone willingness to reconcile the differences.

That does go both ways too...the person thinking X means Y has to be open to altering their reality...sometimes people cling so tightly to their own reality that it is next to impossible for them to allow it to be changed.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> That does go both ways too...*the person thinking X means Y has to be open to altering their reality*...*sometimes people cling so tightly to their own reality that it is next to impossible for them to allow it to be changed.*


Which is what we are seeing here with the people who are saying "she did x, it means y", and they are unwilling to stop clinging to this.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> True, bandit.
> 
> But his wife's reality is a third reality, and in hers, his reality (that he has reason to be insecure) is not true.


True. Wherein he needs to decide if his reality and hers can continue to coexist in a meaningful way. If her mindset is such that it deteriorates his feelings of self worth, then they are mismatched and he has a decision to make....or ignore. If he chooses to ignore, then he needs to quit dwelling on it....

...or find some insidious form of passive-aggressive payback...:lol:


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> The only thing that matters in this discussion (from my end) is that no one can "make" someone else's reality be different.
> 
> What we choose to do with our own realities is on us, regardless of what others do or don't do. They can influence, and we can choose to ignore or accept that influence.
> 
> *I'm thinking you are having a hard time with this because you want to hold on to your insecurities, and you want your wife to somehow make it better in your reality.
> 
> That's not an insult, it is just what I've observed in your behavior (that you don't seem to let go of your insecurities, regardless of knowing logically that they don't make sense)*.


I'm not so sure this is really the case any more. None of my argument here really stems from anything more than a purely intellectual exercise 

I am not sure however that I am communicating my point in the best way possible


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> True, bandit.
> 
> But his wife's reality is a third reality, and in hers, his reality (that he has reason to be insecure) is not true.


She could "force" him to be insecure, by being hyper critical, fault finding, negative and always outing him to others.

That's a particular voodoo that works.

You see with some folks realities, they will force them to be true.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> Which is what we are seeing here with the people who are saying "she did x, it means y", and they are unwilling to stop clinging to this.


If one is only willing to respond with a "because", one can't expect others to change their reality.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> ...or find some insidious form of passive-aggressive payback...:lol:


Oh, bandit . . .


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> True. Wherein he needs to decide if his reality and hers can continue to coexist in a meaningful way. If her mindset is such that it deteriorates his feelings of self worth, then they are mismatched and he has a decision to make....or ignore. If he chooses to ignore, then he needs to quit dwelling on it....
> 
> ...or find some insidious form of passive-aggressive payback...:lol:


I would say that our realities are pretty well aligned now now that we have a better understanding of each other and our motivations. The things I have brought up, I have not brought up because they are still an issue, but merely examples of things we have come to understandings of.

I do think that if we ever stopped our open and honest communication, we could be in for some trouble because that has been the foundation of our relationship. Our ability to express ourselves to each other and feel emotionally safe doing so. The same can be said for pretty much any couple though, so that is certainly not unique to us.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tall Average Guy said:


> If one is only willing to respond with a "because", one can't expect others to change their reality.


And one can't expect that the answer of "because" means what they think it means to the person saying it.

"Because" may mean they are simply unwilling to kiss and tell, period.

If the other person (say the husband) wants to believe that "because" means "I refuse to tell you because the reality of it would kill you because I LOVED being with him and NOT YOU"....that husband has every right to believe this.

Yet the wife saying it has every right to flip him the bird for trying to force his reality on her.

I'm not saying people should just say "because". I'm just saying that even though they might, you still don't get to decide what it means TO THEM.


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, it isn't necessarily jealousy or insecurity BUT the woman in my example gets to decide for herself "what it means"...the same way the man gets to decide for himself what her previous motivations were...even though NEITHER of these things the man or woman thinks makes it true for the other one.


I agree.

To clarify a bit, it is the disparity which is the issue, not the sex acts themselves. The meaning is not in the fact she did X with one man. The meaning is that she happily enjoyed X with one man and does not desire to do something equivalent with another man.

If the woman is engaging in a vibrant satisfying sexual relationship with her husband, and is happy to give him at least the same level of activities as she did other men, there is no disparity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sigh...


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> And one can't expect that the answer of "because" means what they think it means to the person saying it.
> 
> "Because" may mean they are simply unwilling to kiss and tell, period.
> 
> If the other person (say the husband) wants to believe that "because" means "I refuse to tell you because the reality of it would kill you because I LOVED being with him and NOT YOU"....that husband has every right to believe this.
> 
> Yet the wife saying it has every right to flip him the bird for trying to force his reality on her.
> 
> *I'm not saying people should just say "because". I'm just saying that even though they might, you still don't get to decide what it means TO THEM*.


Absolutely spot on, you only get to decide what it means to YOURSELF. Some people, not very many I suspect, would accept just because with nothing further, and alter their own reality accordingly. For most people, that is simply not enough information to to be willing to alter their reality.

Again, it comes down to communicating a message in a way as to convey what you are actually trying to convey.


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> Several men on here are saying their feelings about "wife did this, it means x" is not an opinion, they are saying it is a fact, that it is reality (for the wife).


Well I consider it a fact that if a woman is uninterested in doing things with her husband which she enjoyed with other men and looks fondly upon, she is not as into her husband sexually as she was into those other men.

Is there another explanation? She liked doing X with other men. She fondly remembers doing X with other men. In the OP's case his wife talked fondly about those things with a friend of hers. She does not have a reason currently such as health, pain, risk, illegality etc which would make X undesirable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Absolutely spot on, you only get to decide what it means to YOURSELF. *Some people, not very many I suspect, would accept just because with nothing further, and alter their own reality accordingly. For most people, that is simply not enough information to to be willing to alter their reality*.
> 
> Again, it comes down to communicating a message in a way as to convey what you are actually trying to convey.


I actually did just fine with "just because". I don't feel it is really any of my business what his "reasons" were for anything he did in his past.

I asked questions, but not about the "why" stuff, and I got answers, but again, only about logistics (and no real details).

This is why I keep saying, not everyone feels the same about these past things.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> And one can't expect that the answer of "because" means what they think it means to the person saying it.
> 
> "Because" may mean they are simply unwilling to kiss and tell, period.
> 
> If the other person (say the husband) wants to believe that "because" means "I refuse to tell you because the reality of it would kill you because I LOVED being with him and NOT YOU"....that husband has every right to believe this.
> 
> Yet the wife saying it has every right to flip him the bird for trying to force his reality on her.
> 
> I'm not saying people should just say "because". I'm just saying that even though they might, you still don't get to decide what it means TO THEM.


Nor do they get to decide what it means to me. Like it or not, merely saying “because” has meaning. To pretend otherwise is foolish


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tall Average Guy said:


> Nor do they get to decide what it means to me. Like it or not, merely saying “because” has meaning. To pretend otherwise is foolish


To you it has meaning.

To pretend you get to decide that it has meaning for someone else is foolish.


----------



## bandit.45

Thor said:


> Well I consider it a fact that if a woman is uninterested in doing things with her husband which she enjoyed with other men and looks fondly upon, she is not as into her husband sexually as she was into those other men.
> 
> Is there another explanation? She liked doing X with other men. She fondly remembers doing X with other men. In the OP's case his wife talked fondly about those things with a friend of hers. She does not have a reason currently such as health, pain, risk, illegality etc which would make X undesirable.


And we come full circle. She's not into him. He's a roommate she gives duty sex to.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> To you it has meaning.
> 
> To pretend you get to decide that it has meaning for someone else is foolish.


Sure. But that goes both ways.


----------



## bandit.45

We'll my reality is that I two weeks I go back to Phoenix and get to engage in lots of kinky sex with my girlfriend...the kind of sex most married men don't get. 

Which is why Bandit will never marry again. I reject the reality of marriage...which is a big social scam....and replace it with my own.


----------



## jld

Just to clarify, what kind of kinky sex do married men not usually get?

Or should I start a thread?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Just to clarify, what kind of kinky sex do married men not usually get?
> 
> Or should I start a thread?


I dunno. How can you write such a thread without hard data?


----------



## I Don't Know

FW and Sam, you have blown my freaking mind in the last few pages. I have never looked at things in this way before. Good stuff! Plenty to think about. it's helped me see things in a new way. I hope it sticks.


Thanks to both of you!


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I dunno. How can you write such a thread without hard data?


Well, it was your post that inspired the question.

Just curious here.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Just to clarify, what kind of kinky sex do married men not usually get?



Missionary :rofl:


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> Missionary :rofl:


She doesn't want to see your mug?


----------



## john117

treyvion said:


> She doesn't want to see your mug?



Mega :rofl:


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> Just to clarify, what kind of kinky sex do married men not usually get?
> 
> Or should I start a thread?


Lights on.

More than once a week.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Missionary :rofl:


:lol:


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Lights on.
> 
> More than once a week.


Oh, brother. You guys are all kidding, right?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Oh, brother. You guys are all kidding, right?



Of course we are


----------



## john117

Unraveling the social scam of marriage will take a while unfortunately. In Europe adultery is not a big deal (or as big a deal) as it is here and I feel there's less adultery there than here. Or so the Internets say.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090802133052AAjMaFi


----------



## Personal

john117 said:


> Unraveling the social scam of marriage will take a while unfortunately. In Europe adultery is not a big deal (or as big a deal) as it is here and I feel there's less adultery there than here. Or so the Internets say.
> 
> https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090802133052AAjMaFi


I didn't know Australia was so progressive (sarc).


----------



## bandit.45

john117 said:


> Unraveling the social scam of marriage will take a while unfortunately. In Europe adultery is not a big deal (or as big a deal) as it is here and I feel there's less adultery there than here. Or so the Internets say.
> 
> https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090802133052AAjMaFi


Makes sense. Normalization takes the fun and danger out of such undertakings, so no one is as attracted to the idea of doing so.


----------



## LongWalk

This thread has become intriguing. The question of reality when it comes to the meaning of sex is perplexing. To begin with reality is not entirely personal. People filter their experience through the weight of propaganda and social correctness. The "free love" of the 60s was no doubt very confusing for many. It was exciting to overthrow convention but when women were exhorted to 'not be uptight' and later contracted a venereal disease, this reality must have undergone revision.

Planned Parenthood and other groups have had an enormous impact on the way people think about sex. Premarital sex was once an exciting sin and then it was not a sin. A woman cannot have mind bending premarital sex with her husband. She cannot have frenetic affair sex with her husband.

This may be partly why TAM posters often shout "divorce the cheater and then perhaps start dating anew in a "new" relationship. 
A husband who wants his former WW to do things like go braless and have outdoor sex in a park just like she once did with OM can define those acts as something from a different time and place. Something that cannot be recaptured.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Personal said:


> Fortunately I don't have to wait two weeks to engage in lots of kinky sex ("the kind of sex most married men don't get") with my wife who remains my girlfriend.
> 
> As to marriage, good for you. I don't think anyone needs to be married to have a great relationship. My wife and I happily lived together for almost three years before we got married. Married, de facto or something else can work or fail just as readily as the other.


My H and I were together 5 years before marriage, lived together for 2 of those 5. We'll be married for 5 years this summer, so 10 years altogether. From what I've gathered, we also have all the kinky sex that married people don't usually get. I'm always happy to hear of another couple like us. :smthumbup:

I have no investment in the idea of marriage itself. Couldn't care less what others do or don't do in that regard. We got married because it really seemed right, finally after 5 years. It still seems right so we're still married. 

Without the great sex, we probably wouldn't be though.


----------



## samyeagar

LongWalk said:


> This thread has become intriguing. The question of reality when it comes to the meaning of sex is perplexing. *To begin with reality is not entirely personal. People filter their experience through the weight of propaganda and social correctness*. The "free love" of the 60s was no doubt very confusing for many. It was exciting to overthrow convention but when women were exhorted to 'not be uptight' and later contracted a venereal disease, this reality must have undergone revision.
> 
> Planned Parenthood and other groups have had an enormous impact on the way people think about sex. Premarital sex was once an exciting sin and then it was not a sin. A woman cannot have mind bending premarital sex with her husband. She cannot have frenetic affair sex with her husband.
> 
> This may be partly why TAM posters often shout "divorce the cheater and then perhaps start dating anew in a "new" relationship.
> A husband who wants his former WW to do things like go braless and have outdoor sex in a park just like she once did with OM can define those acts as something from a different time and place. Something that cannot be recaptured.


This is kind of a contradiction isn't it? Those filters belong to the individual, they chose to accept them as their own, thus creating a personal reality. There really is not a truly objective absolute reality as everyone perceives things, filters things through their own personal lens. Empathy and Sympathy are the tools we use to allow ourselves to understand, and accept or reject all or in part, another's reality.

Take something as absolute as the color 'red'. The only reason it is 'red' is because we as human beings collectively decided that what we visually see, if it is close to that, we will call it 'red' to make communication of the idea of 'red' easier. But how many different shades of 'red' are there? 100 people can look at the same 'red' thing, and see a slightly different color, and what about the color blind person, or the person blind since birth?

ETA: This is why, in the most extreme example...a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, one of the hallmarks of the disorder is a person devoid of empathy...totally missing that part. That is one of the things that makes them so difficult to deal with and is why they are described as living in their own vastly different reality. Their personal reality is absolutely inflexible.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Also, animals and insects see red and many other colors differently than we do, and there are colors no human can see but some insects can. So what is the objective reality of color or red? There really isn't one without an observer and then it becomes subjective again. This is the conundrum of physical reality. It doesn't exist without an observer.


----------



## john117

Measurable reality is real and objective. What I measure in my lab is objective reality. Opinions recorded by subjects in my lab are their view of reality or subjective reality.

The difficulty is in reconciling the two


----------



## jld

Sam have you ever looked at this blog?

Codependency Is A Serious Problem For Relationships

He talks more specifically about BPD, but I think he said at one point that all those personality disorders have a lot in common.


----------



## samyeagar

john117 said:


> Measurable reality is real and objective. What I measure in my lab is objective reality. Opinions recorded by subjects in my lab are their view of reality or subjective reality.
> 
> The difficulty is in reconciling the two


There is indeed a physical measurable objective reality, or at least I believe there is  How that reality is viewed and interpreted is up to the observer.

Absolutely NOT wanting to go any further down this tangent, but one of the most stark examples of this conundrum is that of the Young Earth Creationists, or the Flat Earthers.


----------



## LongWalk

The reality of sex acts is objective. The interpretation of their meaning is less certain. At the end of 1984, the Winston meets his lover. They no longer love each other and the memories of their sexual triumph over the state are completely destroyed. The state and society have the power to impose a value judgment on sex.

The Iranian and Afghan adulterers and homosexuals probably cannot remember anything positive about sex as their execution date roles round.


----------



## samyeagar

I believe that physical, objective reality exists, but it has no intrinsic value. Any value, be it emotional, monetary, even in simple identification exists only in the individuals reality. Society cannot force someone to hold a certain view, put certain filters in place as you suggest. What it can do is cause you to be surrounded by an environment that make it conducive to you holding to a similar reality to those around you within the same society. There are always those who are willing and able to buck the system, and sometimes one of them is able to influence enough individual realities to realign societal thinking.


----------



## john117

So we need to focus more on what happens when specific, ehem, acts are up for discussion rather than whether the acts themselves are important... 

As the Radio Frequency team at work says, it's all about receptivity.


----------



## LongWalk

One thing I noticed about women newly in love. They talked to me about the other men in their lives. My take on it in retrospect is that women labor harder than men to attribute meaning to sex partners and even acts. As long as a woman has hope in life and hope that sex is going to change men that she wants to engage her life, she will revise and reinterpret the past more than a guy will.


----------



## Bluegalinpa

Perhaps her self-esteem was low during her "wild times," and she felt she had to do those things to get or keep a man. Now, in the security of a relationship that is loving and accepting of the person she is, she doesn't want to do those things because of, what she didn't tell you is, how degraded she felt afterwards. 

You may feel like you missed out, but maybe you are the lucky one because sex with you is out of love. 

Does she close her eyes when you make love or does she look at you?


----------



## samyeagar

Bluegalinpa said:


> Perhaps her self-esteem was low during her "wild times," and she felt she had to do those things to get or keep a man. Now, in the security of a relationship that is loving and accepting of the person she is, she doesn't want to do those things because of, what she didn't tell you is, how degraded she felt afterwards.
> 
> You may feel like you missed out, but maybe you are the lucky one because sex with you is out of love.
> 
> Does she close her eyes when you make love or does she look at you?


Are you suggesting that she might be willing to do what ever it takes to get and keep a man and find security in a relationship, and once she has it, she doesn't have to try quite as hard?


----------



## lifeistooshort

samyeagar said:


> Are you suggesting that she might be willing to do what ever it takes to get and keep a man and find security in a relationship, and once she has it, she doesn't have to try quite as hard?


A lot of women feel pressure to do things when single because if they don't there are plenty of women that will. Plenty of women will have sex in general that they don't enjoy, and we all know what happens when they get married. Apparently nothing is enough though because even if they keep having sex if it's not the right kind of sex it's no good.

Perhaps when they marry some of the pressure is off? People do a lot of things when single that they don't do when married, and I mean both genders and sexual and non sexual things. I mean, how many guys keep treating their wife like their gf? True they should but it can be difficult to keep this up; people should remain open sexually but things that push their limits might be tough to keep up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

lifeistooshort said:


> A lot of women feel pressure to do things when single because if they don't there are plenty of women that will. Plenty of women will have sex in general that they don't enjoy, and we all know what happens when they get married. Apparently nothing is enough though because even if they keep having sex if it's not the right kind of sex it's no good.
> 
> Perhaps when they marry some of the pressure is off? People do a lot of things when single that they don't do when married, and I mean both genders and sexual and non sexual things. I mean, how many guys keep treating their wife like their gf? True they should but it can be difficult to keep this up; people should remain open sexually but things that push their limits might be tough to keep up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Many posts seem to support what you write. The ideal gf and wife gives enthusiastic bj's and swallows without complaint, likes to display her body, looks a certain way, goes into any position to please him, keep up the excitement by doing what he wants etc. 

She does not have to like any of it but has to act as if she does. It would be better if the ideal gf and wife was a compatible woman who genuinely enjoyed and got as much pleasure from sex as her man. 

The assumption is that an fair exchange is a monogamous relationship, commitment, children and sometimes monetary support from him. For this she agrees to a continue at a high level of sexual performance weather she is sexually satisfied or not. 

Her status in his life is always temporary, if she fails to perform at an acceptable level, at best she gets a chronically unhappy husband and/or at worse, a cheater and/or a D. 

Sounds awfully unfair and unloving.


----------



## techmom

Catherine602 said:


> Many posts seem to support what you write. The ideal gf and wife gives enthusiastic bj's and swallows without complaint, likes to display her body, looks a certain way, goes into any position to please him, keep up the excitement by doing what he wants etc.
> 
> She does not have to like any of it but has to act as if she does. It would be better if the ideal gf and wife was a compatible woman who genuinely enjoyed and got as much pleasure from sex as her man.
> 
> The assumption is that an fair exchange is a monogamous relationship, commitment, children and sometimes monetary support from him. For this she agrees to a continue at a high level of sexual performance weather she is sexually satisfied or not.
> 
> Her status in his life is always temporary, if she fails to perform at an acceptable level, at best she gets a chronically unhappy husband and/or at worse, a cheater and/or a D.
> 
> Sounds awfully unfair and unloving.


Likewise, men feel like they can just stop the attractive traits that attracted their wife in the first place and just let go. They wear torn sweats, drink beer and gain a belly, and some don't groom themselves like they used to. But they still feel entitled to sex and passion. They don't understand why wifey is not as horny and hot. This is another type of bait and switch rarely mentioned on TAM.

Everything is all good in the relationship until wifey refuses sex, regardless of what she stated before.

Disclaimer: This only applies to some of the men out there, other men do take care of themselves because they value their relationships.


----------



## murphy5

Personal said:


> As a man gets older he should amongst other things invest in and use a nose & ear trimmer.


Yes, and the women should go into undies drawer, and throw out every white pair of "granny" panties and bras she finds there!!


----------



## samyeagar

Catherine602 said:


> Many posts seem to support what you write. The ideal gf and wife gives enthusiastic bj's and swallows without complaint, likes to display her body, looks a certain way, goes into any position to please him, keep up the excitement by doing what he wants etc.
> 
> She does not have to like any of it but has to act as if she does. It would be better if the ideal gf and wife was a compatible woman who genuinely enjoyed and got as much pleasure from sex as her man.
> 
> The assumption is that an fair exchange is a monogamous relationship, commitment, children and sometimes monetary support from him. For this she agrees to a continue at a high level of sexual performance weather she is sexually satisfied or not.
> 
> *Her status in his life is always temporary, if she fails to perform at an acceptable level, at best she gets a chronically unhappy husband and/or at worse, a cheater and/or a D. *
> 
> Sounds awfully unfair and unloving.


I think this sums up quite nicely how many marriages end up, but in a gender neutral way. An awful lot of men have that temporary status as well, and end up with chronically unhappy wives and/or a cheater and/or a divorce.


----------



## Marduk

Bluegalinpa said:


> Perhaps her self-esteem was low during her "wild times," and she felt she had to do those things to get or keep a man. Now, in the security of a relationship that is loving and accepting of the person she is, she doesn't want to do those things because of, what she didn't tell you is, how degraded she felt afterwards.
> 
> You may feel like you missed out, but maybe you are the lucky one because sex with you is out of love.
> 
> Does she close her eyes when you make love or does she look at you?


That sounds a lot more like rationalization than reality to me.

If a woman tells you things she did with other dudes and not you, it's likely a power deal, or a big sign she's just not that into you.

Message to women: if you're not willing to do X and Y with your husband but was for others, just damn well keep it to yourself. We don't need those movies in our head, thanks.

And don't give me any "we share everything" baloney.

ALL women have secrets.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> That sounds a lot more like rationalization than reality to me.
> 
> If a woman tells you things she did with other dudes and not you, it's likely a power deal, or a big sign she's just not that into you.
> 
> *Message to women:* if you're not willing to do X and Y with your husband but was for others, just damn well keep it to yourself. We don't need those movies in our head, thanks.
> 
> And don't give me any "we share everything" baloney.
> 
> ALL women have secrets.


Message to Marduk: sl*t shaming "all women" this way isn't sexy in the least. I reported your post as it is insulting.


----------



## MarriedManInHis40s

Faithful Wife said:


> Message to Marduk: sl*t shaming "all women" this way isn't sexy in the least. I reported your post as it is insulting.


I didn't think it was insulting in the least, nor was it **** shaming. He didn't say "don't do those things", or "you shouldn't do those things". That would be **** shaming.

He didn't even say "if you did them with someone else, you should also do them with me".

What he actually said was "if you were happy to do them for someone else, but don't love me/find me attractive enough to do them for me even though I'd like you to, I'd rather not hear about it.", which is pretty damn reasonable IMHO.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

It's so unfair for people in general to assume the sex acts their partner performed with other people had anything to do with loving their past partners more or not loving your current partner enough or being attracted enough to them. 

Some of us were just REALLY f**ked up young people and did what they felt they had to do in order to be loved and be given attention.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's so unfair for people in general to assume the sex acts their partner performed with other people had anything to do with loving their past partners more or not loving your current partner enough or being attracted enough to them.
> 
> Some of us were just REALLY f**ked up young people and did what they felt they had to do in order to be loved and be given attention.


And some people just love sex for the purely physical aspects of it without assigning any emotional or other value to it beyond the physical. Some people are unable to do that. I think that difference is the root of some of these types of problems, and when you have two people together from the opposite ends...one who experiences sex as primarily or exclusively mechanical, and another who experiences sex as primarily or exclusively emotional, it is very difficult to reconcile the two views.


----------



## Jellybeans

This thread has some really icky parts. 

There is a lot of just...nasty attitudes in here. 

WOMENZ are BAD.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

That's pretty much the general climate on tam these days.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> ALL women have secrets.


And all men don't, I'm assuming, based on the way you said that.


----------



## samyeagar

I think what we are seeing, and it plays out on other threads too, not just ones directed towards women, is what happens when generalizations, common knowledge, social assumptions are questioned and revealed as patently false...men want sex for the physical sake of having sex, and women have sex for emotional the sake. Men assign no value to sex, and women assign value to sex.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I haven't heard of many women throwing their sexual past in the faces of their current partner...except for on tam of course.The land of the unicorns and where every female is horrifyingly emotionally immature and evil 

I've been with at least 2 MEN who took great joy in telling me all about their illicit past interactions with ladies. Total sidebar comments too that I wasn't asking to hear. It was implied that if I wasn't down for those activities I was a prude and unworthy of their love and time. 

Yet...they wouldn't marry a girl who was willing to do those things bc she's not "marriage material" WTFever.


----------



## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> And all men don't, I'm assuming, based on the way you said that.


Quite likely the meaning yes, but we do need to be careful here...saying ALL ducks can fly, whether true or not makes no judgement on geese...


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I haven't heard of many women throwing their sexual past in the faces of their current partner...except for on tam of course.The land of the unicorns and where every female is horrifyingly emotionally immature and evil
> 
> I've been with at least 2 MEN who took great joy in telling me all about their illicit past interactions with ladies. Total sidebar comments too that I wasn't asking to hear. It was implied that if I wasn't down for those activities I was a prude and unworthy of their love and time.
> 
> Yet...they wouldn't marry a girl who was willing to do those things bc she's not "marriage material" WTFever.


But isn't what you just described here pretty much exact social stereotypes? Men brag, and women don't?


----------



## Sbrown

**** shaming, now I've heard it all. Lmao
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> But isn't what you just described here pretty much exact social stereotypes? Men brag, and women don't?


Women brag about their current partner from what I've experienced. I've never met one who bragged about a past partner while in a relationship with someone else. I know they're out there but I've never met one to date.


----------



## Jellybeans

samyeagar said:


> Quite likely the meaning yes, but we do need to be careful here...saying ALL ducks can fly, whether true or not makes no judgement on geese...


I was playing off what Marduk said about ALL women.


----------



## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> I was playing off what Marduk said about ALL women.


Oh, I know, and I agree with you that the implication you drew was likely right. Just not sure we should give any ammunition by drawing inferences...


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Message to Marduk: sl*t shaming "all women" this way isn't sexy in the least. I reported your post as it is insulting.


I'm sorry you took it that way.

Everyone has secrets. I didn't necessarily mean sex.

And I'm no sl*t shamer, trust me. I've happily been with women with a very checkered past, and I'm no angel.

I just really don't want to continually think about the women I love being with other guys. And that's why I won't ask my wife about how many guys she's been with, or what she's done with them. I don't care, but I also don't want to know or think about it.

My apologies. I did not mean it that way.


----------



## convert

Faithful Wife said:


> *It might be reasonable if the wife in the original scenario was throwing stuff in the husband's face*, but she wasn't. So his comment was directed toward....who? Just "women". And "women" shouldn't throw stuff in men's faces and "all women have secrets". That's how you group all women together to sl*t shame them. Notice how it was "all women have secrets", not "all people have secrets"?
> 
> And guess what? I don't need your approval to make my own opinion about what he said or what sl*t shaming is.


*actually the wife in the original scenario was telling a friend while he (OP) was at the table,(post #68) he was there, she knew he was there at the table, that is how he found out.* This was several years after marriage
So I took Mardul's comment to be directed Op's wife.

In the original thread op tells us that they discussed this prior to marriage:
"My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived."

not counting questions to specific posters, We tend to forget to tailor our responses to the original thread.
The original poster is a man


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> And all men don't, I'm assuming, based on the way you said that.


Nope, I don't think that at all.

All men have secrets, too.

I certainly don't tell my wife about the amazing sex I had with gf X or how much I was head over heels and would do anything for gf Y.

But -- and maybe this is a trigger for me -- there have been times when my wife will just spontaneously blurt out some crazy sexual thing she has done in her past in tremendous gory detail.

And it really infuriates me and makes me wonder why she does it. I mean, I keep that stuff to myself (I tell her everything if she asks but I don't rub her nose in it) and I have to wonder why she wants me thinking about her being with other guys, or why she's remembering being with other guys.

I've had more than one woman be that way too. But maybe it's just me.


----------



## larry.gray

ScarletBegonias said:


> Women brag about their current partner from what I've experienced. I've never met one who bragged about a past partner while in a relationship with someone else. I know they're out there but I've never met one to date.


The stories I know of personally involve a woman bragging about their current partner to friends, and then years later when that woman is with a new man, those women gossip about her with past partners.


----------



## MarriedManInHis40s

Faithful Wife said:


> And guess what? I don't need your approval to make my own opinion about what he said or what sl*t shaming is.


I apologize. I didn't realize you were infallible, and therefore not to be contradicted in any way. Carry on.


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> Nope, I don't think that at all.
> 
> All men have secrets, too.
> 
> I certainly don't tell my wife about the amazing sex I had with gf X or how much I was head over heels and would do anything for gf Y.
> 
> But -- and maybe this is a trigger for me -- there have been times when my wife will just spontaneously blurt out some crazy sexual thing she has done in her past in tremendous gory detail.
> 
> And it really infuriates me and makes me wonder why she does it. I mean, I keep that stuff to myself (I tell her everything if she asks but I don't rub her nose in it) and I have to wonder why she wants me thinking about her being with other guys, or why she's remembering being with other guys.
> 
> I've had more than one woman be that way too. But maybe it's just me.


I think there are a couple things about that. First is simple immaturity, and the second is what I was saying earlier...social stereotypes in that men do not assign value to sex beyond the physical, and they brag about sex. Kind of a what's good for the goose is good for the gander, even though you personally don't talk, you are a man therefore you must feel that way and not be bothered by such things. There likely wasn't anything malicious intended by them.


----------



## samyeagar

larry.gray said:


> The stories I know of personally involve a woman bragging about their current partner to friends, and then years later when that woman is with a new man, those women gossip about her with past partners.


Yep. My experience as well, and not just amongst themselves behind her back, but with her full inclusion.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

larry.gray said:


> The stories I know of personally involve a woman bragging about their current partner to friends, and then years later when that woman is with a new man, those women gossip about her with past partners.





samyeagar said:


> Yep. My experience as well, and not just amongst themselves behind her back, but with her full inclusion.


I can't say I've ever had friends like that so I have no knowledge on the matter. 
Most of the friends I ever had simply knew not to discuss things I shared about previous relationships once I was with someone new. 

To discuss it within earshot of the new man would be seriously violating the woman friendship code of conduct


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> I think there are a couple things about that. First is simple immaturity, and the second is what I was saying earlier...social stereotypes in that men do not assign value to sex beyond the physical, and they brag about sex. Kind of a what's good for the goose is good for the gander, even though you personally don't talk, you are a man therefore you must feel that way and not be bothered by such things. There likely wasn't anything malicious intended by them.


I'd LOVE to believe that, trust me.

However I made it abundantly obvious when we started dating, got engaged, got married, and multiple times since then that I'm open to talking about her past if there's something she wants to talk about, or something's bothering her, or whatever... but if it's pointless then I'd rather not know, and certainly not know the gory details.

And I've explicitly asked her not to tell me how many guys she's been with.

But every once in a while... once a year or so... she throws some crap out there... and I see another notch in the bedpost and picture her doing this (graphic stuff) with some other guy...

It's not like "please stop asking me to do X I did it with Y and didn't like it" or "I'm remembering doing this before and it upsets me" or whatever. It's like we'll be sitting there out for dinner and she'll blurt out that she did some guy in the bathroom while she was at a party when she was young and all the things she did with him even though they just met. Just randomly like that.

And I have to wonder why she does that.

Again, this isn't just my wife. It's a few other girlfriends, too. Maybe it's the ones I pick.

Or maybe I'm too open with other crap about my life, and she translates that into being open about her sexual past. Even though I'm not with mine unless she specifically asks me to be.


----------



## convert

convert said:


> *actually the wife in the original scenario was telling a friend while he (OP) was at the table,(post #68) he was there, she knew he was there, that is how he found out.* This was several years after marriage
> So I took Mardul's comment to be directed Op's wife.
> 
> In the original thread op tells us that they discussed this prior to marriage:
> "My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived."
> 
> not counting questions to specific posters, We tend to forget to tailor our responses to the original thread.
> The original poster is a man



I believe the wife of the OP was throwing it in his face (at least the one time), maybe not on purpose.


----------



## Jellybeans

samyeagar said:


> Oh, I know, and I agree with you that the implication you drew was likely right. Just not sure we should give any ammunition by drawing inferences...


If someone posts something like that, surely they should expect the same kind of response.


----------



## Jellybeans

convert said:


> I believe the wife of the OP was throwing it in his face, maybe not on purpose.


Then he married an a$$hole. And it's 100% his choice to stay with someone if they keep "throwing in his face" all of the sexual things they did with someone else and "refuse" to do with him. 

I personally would not even date someone like that.

This isn't a gender thing. It's a jerk thing. 

But this thread has been worded in a way that is to paint women in a really disgusting light. The comments from some of the posters in here just add to that.


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> But this thread has been worded in a way that is to paint women in a really disgusting light. The comments from some of the posters in here just add to that.


Maybe, but I think there's something to it as well.

I think it's a common thing for a husband to be shocked what his wife did with another guy, and a sense of betrayal that she wouldn't do those things with him.

It would make me feel like it's a competition, and although she married me, she wanted/respected/lusted after the other guy(s) more.

And they got to have her in ways that I never would, and therefore they would always be better than me.

Many of us men have remarkably fragile egos when it comes to sex, myself included.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I can't say I've ever had friends like that so I have no knowledge on the matter.
> Most of the friends I ever had simply knew not to discuss things I shared about previous relationships once I was with someone new.
> 
> To discuss it within earshot of the new man would be seriously violating the woman friendship code of conduct


Well, the male friends I have, we don't discuss our sex lives, past or present.

The thing is, discussing things past with current friends, even when not in earshot can send the wrong message too. Take what happened on this very thread with Jellybeans and marduk. Marduk said something about women, and the contrasting inference was immediately drawn...it is natural for people to do that...saying something good about a past lover is implicitly drawing a comparison to the current one...


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> Maybe, but I think there's something to it as well.
> 
> I think it's a common thing for a husband to be *shocked *what his wife did with another guy, and *a sense of betrayal* that she wouldn't do those things with him.
> 
> It would make me feel like *it's a competitio*n, and although she married me, *she wanted/respected/lusted after the other guy(s) more.
> *
> And t*hey got to have her in ways that I never would, and therefore they would always be better than me.*


Ick. There reads of some weird, insecure, self-loathing, misogynistic, possessive, ownership dialogue. 

Once again, if the case that she is _"throwing it in his face"_ as has been suggested by many here, then he has a broken picker. And it his choice and _his choice alone_ to continue to stay with someone who repeatedly waxes on about how she fvcked Tim, Bob, and Larry right in front of his face or to her friends within his earshot. I mean, really?

I would not even get to the point where I would date someone seriously, let alone MARRY someone who would do that. 

Also, if he's going around asking 100 questions about what all positions she did it with him and with him and that's how he founds out, then be careful what you ask for. 

I personally do not grill any man I'm with about all the ways he fvcked Mary, Sara, and Jessica. Why? Because I don't want to hear it and it has NOTHING to do with our relationship.


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> Ick. There reads of some weird, insecure, self-loathing, misogynistic, possessive, ownership dialogue.
> 
> Once again, if the case that she is _"throwing it in his face"_ as has been suggested by many here, then he has a broken picker. And it his choice and _his choice alone_ to continue to stay with someone who repeatedly waxes on about how she fvcked Tim, Bob, and Larry right in front of his face or to her friends within his earshot. I mean, really?
> 
> I would not even get to the point where I would date someone seriously, let alone MARRY someone who would do that.
> 
> Also, if he's going around asking 100 questions about what all positions she did it with him and with him and that's how he founds out, then be careful what you ask for.
> 
> I personally do not grill any man I'm with about all the ways he fvcked Mary, Sara, and Jessica. Why? Because I don't want to hear it and it has NOTHING to do with our relationship.


I mostly agreed with you right up to your last paragraph. I think you are deluding yourself if you say you wouldn't want to know. What if your husband, during dating, lied to you or hid things about his past that rear their ugly heads later on through the drunken conversations of friends?


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> Once again, if the case that she is "throwing it in his face" as has been suggested by many here, then he has a broken picker. And it his choice and his choice alone to continue to stay with someone who repeatedly waxes on about who she fvcked Tim, Bob, and Larry.
> 
> I would not even get to the point where I would marry someone who would do that.


Well, it looks like I did.

I'm pretty open minded in general about sex and our relationship was so good in so many other areas that I'd just try to get past when she'd do this kind of thing. It wouldn't even be "oh, I dated Jim and it was really intense but short lived..." 

It would be "that reminds me of this guy that was just a fling I did for fun, we weren't even dating, just screwing, and he really loved it when I did X and Y and Z with him but it didn't mean anything... why do you look so upset? It's the past before you it doesn't mean anything don't be all insecure about it, it's such a turn-off!" ... and I'd put down my fork at the fancy restaurant I'd taken her for a special date night away just the two of us without the kids.

And again, I didn't expect to marry a virgin. I purposefully wanted to be with someone that enjoyed sex.

And even though it happens _less_, it still _happens_.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's a respect thing. I used to think it just bothered me because I was insecure, and I still would like to be all super mr secure about the whole thing.

But I just don't want it thrown in my face, or picture it, or have it just come out at random inappropriate times.

I just don't think she respects or cares about my feelings... I think she feels like an empowered sexual woman who's proud of her past experiences, and just wants to throw it in my face to keep me in my place or something. And she wants me to know and think about her being with other guys because it gives her a sense of freedom and power and control.

In fact, a lot of things are starting to make sense because of lack of respect.

THANK YOU JELLYBEAN even though I made you mad.

I think you just really helped me.

Apologies OP for the threadjack, you obviously triggered something in me that I need to work on and think about.


----------



## Jellybeans

bandit.45 said:


> I mostly agreed with you right up to your last paragraph. I think you are deluding yourself if you say you wouldn't want to know.


No, I am not deluding myself. I do NOT want to hear about who he fcked and how and in which ways and I'm not going to ask him about his past sexcapades. 



bandit.45 said:


> What if your husband, during dating, lied to you or hid things about his past that rear their ugly heads later on through the drunken conversations of friends?


Lied about what? Lied about embezzling money? Lied about being married in another country? Lied about having children? That is an entirely different topic.

This thread is specifically about women "throwing in the face" of their husband all the sex acts they did with other men and "refusing" to do it with them.


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> Ick. There reads of some weird, insecure, self-loathing, misogynistic, possessive, ownership dialogue.


Ouch.

Maybe.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Well, it looks like I did.
> 
> I'm pretty open minded in general about sex and our relationship was so good in so many other areas that I'd just try to get past when she'd do this kind of thing. It wouldn't even be "oh, I dated Jim and it was really intense but short lived..."
> 
> It would be "that reminds me of this guy that was just a fling I did for fun, we weren't even dating, just screwing, and he really loved it when I did X and Y and Z with him but it didn't mean anything... why do you look so upset? It's the past before you it doesn't mean anything don't be all insecure about it, it's such a turn-off!" ... and I'd put down my fork at the fancy restaurant I'd taken her for a special date night away just the two of us without the kids.
> 
> And again, I didn't expect to marry a virgin. I purposefully wanted to be with someone that enjoyed sex.
> 
> And even though it happens _less_, it still _happens_.
> 
> I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's a respect thing. I used to think it just bothered me because I was insecure, and I still would like to be all super mr secure about the whole thing.
> 
> But I just don't want it thrown in my face, or picture it, or have it just come out at random inappropriate times.
> 
> I just don't think she respects or cares about my feelings... I think she feels like an empowered sexual woman who's proud of her past experiences, and just wants to throw it in my face to keep me in my place or something. And she wants me to know and think about her being with other guys because it gives her a sense of freedom and power and control.


It might not be this.... 

It might be that she pictures herself on a higher pedastal than you, and that her past, and her friends, and experieinces are superior to yours. That she doesn't look at you in the same light, but she is happy to be with you and have a stable relationship.



marduk said:


> In fact, a lot of things are starting to make sense because of lack of respect.
> 
> THANK YOU JELLYBEAN even though I made you mad.
> 
> I think you just really helped me.
> 
> Apologies OP for the threadjack, you obviously triggered something in me that I need to work on and think about.


Better yet, I think you are right, no matter the past experiences it does boil down to respect, and she doesn't respect you enough to share that side of herself with you. She respected the ex's more, even if they were just flings.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> It would be "that reminds me of this guy that was just a fling I did for fun, we weren't even dating, just screwing, and he really loved it when I did X and Y and Z with him but it didn't mean anything... why do you look so upset?
> 
> And even though it happens _less_, it still _happens_.
> 
> *I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's a respect thing.*
> 
> But I just don't want it thrown in my face, or picture it, or have it just come out at random inappropriate times.
> 
> I just don't think she respects or cares about my feelings... I think she feels like an empowered sexual woman who's proud of her past experiences, and just wants to throw it in my face to keep me in my place or something. And she wants me to know and think about her being with other guys because it gives her a sense of freedom and power and control.
> 
> In fact, a lot of things are starting to make sense because of lack of respect.
> 
> THANK YOU JELLYBEAN even though I made you mad.
> 
> I think you just really helped me.


It IS about respect. Or in this case, disrespect. It's also a boundaries thing. She has way different ones than you do. You said you married her and I'd venture to say she probably did the same thing before the marriage. 

Like I said, I would not continue dating someone who did this to me, constantly. No way. It's completely disrespectful. Marriage? Oh hell no.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Maybe.


Marduk, I think the better question for you would not be to feel like you're in "competition" with other men. I'd be questioning why I think so little of myself to accept and tolerate someone talking to me like that. And what is it about me that draws me to someone who would disrespect me like that and think it's ok to hammer on about every blw job or sex time they had with someone else, then ask me why I'm getting upset/weird about it. Food for thought.


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> No, I am not deluding myself. I do NOT want to hear about who he fcked and how and in which ways and I'm not going to ask him about his past sexcapades.
> 
> 
> 
> Lied about what? Lied about embezzling money? Lied about being married in another country? Lied about having children? That is an entirely different topic.
> 
> This thread is specifically about women "throwing in the face" of their husband all the sex acts they did with other men and "refusing" to do it with them.


Um, go back and read the OP 's original post and get back with me on this. You and I must be reading different threads.


----------



## Jellybeans

treyvion said:


> It might be that she pictures herself on a higher pedastal than you, and that her past, and her friends, and experieinces are superior to yours.


And if that is the case, why would anyone choose to be with someone who thinks of them this way? With someone who thinks they are "superior" to their partner? 



treyvion said:


> Better yet, I think you are right, no matter the past experiences it does boil down to respect, and she doesn't respect you enough to share that side of herself with you. She respected the ex's more, even if they were just flings.


I disagree. It's not about "not respecting enough to share" that "side of her." It's about not respecting him enough to keep talking about all the ways she fcked someone else.

Seriously, WHO on earth would want to listen to their partner talk about this sh*t?


----------



## treyvion

Jellybeans said:


> Marduk, I think the better question for you would not be to feel like you're in "competition" with other men. I'd be questioning why I think so little of myself to accept and tolerate someone talking to me like that. And what is it about me that draws me to someone who would disrespect me like that and think it's ok to hammer on about every blw job or sex time they had with someone else, then ask me why I'm getting upset/weird about it. Food for thought.


She's looking/talking down on him based on that scenario. I'm sure it's not the only time.

At some point you take responsibility for yourself, your actions and what you allow yourself to endure. You won't be able to have a friend treating you like less than again...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Jellybeans said:


> I personally do not grill any man I'm with about all the ways he fvcked Mary, Sara, and Jessica. Why? Because I don't want to hear it and it has NOTHING to do with our relationship.


But isn't that information, in a less specific format, useful and necessary for a relationship. 

I have never asked my wife what she did with specific guys she dated before. But we did discuss general experiences, acts, like and dislikes. I think this was critical to ensuring that we were compatible. That past information can be useful in understanding the current relationship.


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> It IS about respect. Or in this case, disrespect. It's also a boundaries thing. She has way different ones than you do. You said you married her and I'd venture to say she probably did the same thing before the marriage.
> 
> Like I said, I would not continue dating someone who did this to me, constantly. No way. It's completely disrespectful. Marriage? Oh hell no.


Like I said, it doesn't happen constantly. Maybe once or twice a year now. Way more when we were dating than now, so the blame for choosing her is on me. 

And she was (and is) fantastic in many other ways, and good for me so I let it go.

Plus, it's easier to hear that kind of stuff with someone you may be falling for, but aren't deeply in love with. But I am now, and trying very had to deepen our relationship.

She has always been radically open with what she says to almost everyone. But she says that she's too "real" for most people and they just can't "take" it.

Including me sometimes.


----------



## convert

nogutsnoglory said:


> So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
> I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
> Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.
> 
> Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.
> 
> Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?
> 
> I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.
> 
> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.
> 
> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.


I went ahead and posted it here (the original post)

Post #68 is how he found out, here is that post:
"We had a few ****tails with her best girlfriend who she will tell anything to, and she slipped up. So I eventually got the full confession. Maybe"


----------



## Jellybeans

bandit.45 said:


> Um, go back and read the OP 's original post and get back with me on this. You and I must be reading different threads.


This thread has evolved into quite a few different things.

I do see now where he said she "lied." Nobody wants to be lied to. Ever.

But I still stand by my position: I personally do not grill men about these types of things. I'm not interested. And I sure as sh*t will not keep dating a man who think it's ok to constantly "throw in my face" how much he enjoyed doing XYZ with Mary, Sara and Jessica.


----------



## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> Marduk, I think the better question for you would not be to feel like you're in "competition" with other men. I'd be questioning why I think so little of myself to accept and tolerate someone talking to me like that. And what is it about me that draws me to someone who would disrespect me like that and think it's ok to hammer on about every blw job or sex time they had with someone else, then ask me why I'm getting upset/weird about it. Food for thought.


This may be getting somewhere. On the RJ threads that pop up, there is the usual chorus of people who chime in calling the guy insecure, mysoginistic, unable to handle a sexual woman, essentially shaming men into tolerating the disrespect. The past is the past right? Has no impact on the present, has nothing to do with the current relationship...


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> Marduk, I think the better question for you would not be to feel like you're in "competition" with other men. I'd be questioning why I think so little of myself to accept and tolerate someone talking to me like that. And what is it about me that draws me to someone who would disrespect me like that and think it's ok to hammer on about every blw job or sex time they had with someone else, then ask me why I'm getting upset/weird about it. Food for thought.


Oh, I don't feel like I'm competing with other dudes with my wife. It's how I'd imagine I'd feel if she came out with something she happily did with other guys but won't with me.

Never felt that way about anyone that I can remember.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> But she says that she's too "real" for most people and they just can't "take" it.


That would have been a red flag for me.


----------



## treyvion

Jellybeans said:


> And if that is the case, why would anyone choose to be with someone who thinks of them this way? With someone who thinks they are "superior" to their partner?
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. It's not about "not respecting enough to share" that "side of her." It's about not respecting him enough to keep talking about all the ways she fcked someone else.
> 
> Seriously, WHO on earth would want to listen to their partner talk about this sh*t?


People might at a high level say that sex was good/bad or frequent/infrequent with an ex(s). To go into details, I'm not sure either sex would want to hear it.

My belief is it is respect that she doesn't look at him in the same light, so it's not sufficient to get her juices flowing. Even a one night stand did better i n that regard.

That she may feel she's doing him a favour in just being present when she is and he needs to be thankful for that.


----------



## GTdad

I can only address this topic hypothetically, but I suppose the way I'd see it is this:

There are certain things I want in a sexual relationship. If I'm not getting those, the relationship isn't likely to get off the ground anyways, so while learning that she engaged in those sorts of things with other men is probably a moot point, it DOES add an extra "WTF?" factor.

If those things she did with other men aren't things I want to do, I'm not likely to care.

If she started out doing things with me that she no longer wants to do, then we may have a problem depending on how reasonable the explanation is and how important those things are to me. That she did those things with other men isn't a factor at all because if I do see it as a problem, then it's a problem just between me and her.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Oh, I don't feel like I'm competing with other dudes with my wife. It's how I'd imagine I'd feel if she came out with something she happily did with other guys but won't with me.
> 
> Never felt that way about anyone that I can remember.


Thing about it, is she happily did these act(s) and will again do them happily, just not with you.

She doesn't see you in a proper light and perhaps to do these acts with you, would be considered degrading to her and she really doesn't want to do them so she won't.


----------



## Jellybeans

treyvion said:


> Thing about it, is she happily did these act(s) and will again do them happily, just not with you.


Or she may never do them again. Ever. With anyone.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Thing about it, is she happily did these act(s) and will again do them happily, just not with you.
> 
> She doesn't see you in a proper light and perhaps to do these acts with you, would be considered degrading to her and she really doesn't want to do them so she won't.


Sorry I think I've confused things.

There's NOTHING that's come out with my wife that she's done with other guys that she won't do with me.

We have a fantastic sex life with very few boundaries and it's quite frequent.

It however triggered things in me that she likes to talk about that catch me off guard... and that I probably don't handle well.


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> This thread has evolved into quite a few different things.
> 
> I do see now where he said she "lied." Nobody wants to be lied to. Ever.
> 
> But I still stand by my position: I personally do not grill men about these types of things. I'm not interested. And I sure as sh*t will not keep dating a man who think it's ok to constantly "throw in my face" how much he enjoyed doing XYZ with Mary, Sara and Jessica.


I personally don't like walking into traps. I want to know as much about my potential wife's sexual history as she can remember. I believe in total honesty and openness when choosing a mate for life. 

This "what happened in my past shouldn't concern you" crap is just that: crap. I have a right as a fiancée and future husband to know all I can about the woman I am marrying. I need to know if there are things she gladly did with her past boyfriends that she refuses to do with me....not because of insecurity....but because I have a right to make an informed decision about the values and ethics of of the woman I'm marrying, and wether or not I think she will make me a suitable mate. 

The same goes for a bride to be....she has the right to make an informed decision about the man she's marrying. If his values and life-beliefs don't sync with hers then "thank you for applying....I'll call you to let you know if we want to go with you....Next applicant!"


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Like I said, it doesn't happen constantly. Maybe once or twice a year now. Way more when we were dating than now, so the blame for choosing her is on me.
> 
> And she was (and is) fantastic in many other ways, and good for me so I let it go.
> 
> Plus, it's easier to hear that kind of stuff with someone you may be falling for, but aren't deeply in love with. But I am now, and trying very had to deepen our relationship.
> 
> She has always been radically open with what she says to almost everyone. But she says that she's too "real" for most people and they just can't "take" it.
> 
> Including me sometimes.


Don't test your ego against her. Man... You should know better. If your wife is currently your top validator outside of yourself it will destroy you. You are probably 1/2 the man you actually are with that in your circle.

Even if you don't drop her, I'd pick someone else for validation for this moment and wouldn't listen to a word she says. I mean really, who would want a woman like that?


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> That would have been a red flag for me.


Can you talk more about this?

How is honesty/openness a red flag?

At any rate, what do I do about it now? Get over my possessiveness or jealousy or mysoginy or whatever it is (I've never had anyone complain of this in any of my relationships)? Just become cool with it and somehow don't let it impact me or our relationship?

She honestly doesn't seem to understand what the issue is.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Sorry I think I've confused things.
> 
> There's NOTHING that's come out with my wife that she's done with other guys that she won't do with me.
> 
> We have a fantastic sex life with very few boundaries and it's quite frequent.
> 
> It however triggered things in me that she likes to talk about that catch me off guard... and that I probably don't handle well.


Then why don't you tell her "hey wife my love....shut the fvck up! I don't need to hear how you got double teamed by twin brothers"...or whatever her deal was...

Tell her how it makes you feel. It doesn't mean you are insecure, it means you just don't need to hear all the dirty details of her past exploits.


----------



## Jellybeans

bandit.45 said:


> I personally don't like walking into traps. I want to know as much about my potential wife's sexual history as she can remember.
> 
> This "what happened in my past shouldn't concern you" crap is just that: crap. I need to know if there are things she gladly did with her past boyfriends that she refuses to do with me....not because of insecurity....but because I have a right to make an informed decision about the values and ethics of of the woman I'm marrying, and wether or not I think she will make me a suitable mate.


If this is what you need, then go for it. 

But I personally am not into asking about every single detail of someone's sexual history. What works for you may not work for everyone else, bandit.

But I will say, if anyone is ever dating a man or woman who "constantly" throws in their face all the sex they had/did with someone else, then I'd ask sincerely: do you really want to keep dating this person? Are you ok with them doing that? If so, carry on. If not, then go into it knowing full well what you are getting yourself into. You can almost surely expect "more of the same."


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Don't test your ego against her. Man... You should know better. If your wife is currently your top validator outside of yourself it will destroy you. You are probably 1/2 the man you actually are with that in your circle.
> 
> Even if you don't drop her, I'd pick someone else for validation for this moment and wouldn't listen to a word she says. I mean really, who would want a woman like that?


I don't seek validation from her, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I'm a great dad. I'm successful in business. I have multiple black belts. I'm in great shape and very fit. I turn a lot of heads. And I rock in the sack, and my wife reinforces that. As have most women in my life before her.

My ego structure is pretty solid. But I still have trouble hearing this stuff, especially when I least expect it, and it's pointless, and it makes me feel like crap and weak and insecure and stupid.

At least at that time. A few hours or days later it's back to normal.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> Then why don't you tell her "hey wife my love....shut the fvck up! I don't need to hear how you got double teamed by twin brothers"...or whatever her deal was...
> 
> Tell her how it makes you feel. It doesn't mean you are insecure, it means you just don't need to hear all the dirty details of her past exploits.


Oh, man, I've done this like 100 times.

"What's the big deal? It's my past and has nothing to do with you, don't be insecure!"

"I should be able to talk to my best friend about anything, I guess you're not my best friend."

"I'm just to real and honest and this is you're problem, not mine."


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> If this is what you need, then go for it.
> 
> But I personally am not into asking about every single detail of someone's sexual history. What works for you may not work for everyone else, bandit.
> 
> But I will say, if anyone is ever dating a man or woman who "constantly" throws in their face all the sex they had/did with someone else, then I'd ask sincerely: do you really want to keep dating this person? Are you ok with them doing that? If so, carry on. If not, then go into it knowing full well what you are getting yourself into. You can almost surely expect "more of the same."



I will go for it. Thank you. 

As to your second part I agree. If a girlfriend was so cruel as to boast about all the nasty stuff she did with past boyfriends that she refuses to do with me, then I would call the relationship off immediately, because I would not put up with such abuse. Because that's what it is is it not?


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Sorry I think I've confused things.
> 
> There's NOTHING that's come out with my wife that she's done with other guys that she won't do with me.
> 
> We have a fantastic sex life with very few boundaries and it's quite frequent.
> 
> It however triggered things in me that she likes to talk about that catch me off guard... and that I probably don't handle well.


Ok. Well you don't have a serious problem other than your power is imbalanced between you and the wife.

While tit-for-tattting isn't necessarily a good thing to do, it can keep someone from running on and on over you.

I'd mention some of my previous exploits to her, in gory detail and reliving the moment.

You see with these types of disrespects you can't explain to someone why not to do it, most times you have to SHOW them or let them feel it for themself.


----------



## jaharthur

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's so unfair for people in general to assume the sex acts their partner performed with other people had anything to do with loving their past partners more or not loving your current partner enough or being attracted enough to them.
> 
> Some of us were just REALLY f**ked up young people and did what they felt they had to do in order to be loved and be given attention.


I was going to disagree with this, but before I made a fool of myself I noticed the word "assume."

That's fair enough. But is it fair for a partner to ask, "How come?" Your answer is satisfactory. "Because" may not be. And certainly is some cases it IS because of lack of attraction to the current partner.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Oh, man, I've done this like 100 times.
> 
> "What's the big deal? It's my past and has nothing to do with you, don't be insecure!"
> 
> "I should be able to talk to my best friend about anything, I guess you're not my best friend."
> 
> "I'm just to real and honest and this is you're problem, not mine."


So you married a woman with no impulse control who can't keep her piehole shut.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> I'd mention some of my previous exploits to her, in gory detail and reliving the moment.


She doesn't care. And I have quite a number of them. I've held some things back, that I wouldn't want her to be super jealous about. And, frankly, I don't think about being with exes. I just don't. She'll even ask what they were like, what they liked to do, what their bodies were like. I'll struggle to remember, because in my mind there's really only been her that mattered and for so long.

The only thing that bothers her is if I'm really attracted to someone else and let her know or gawk at them or something.

It's only happened once or twice in more than 15 years, although I'm open about glancing at a woman or saying she's attractive if my wife asks me if I think she is.

But I'm not going to go and make her feel insecure about us or herself just because I currently am.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> So you married a woman with no impulse control who can't keep her piehole shut.


Sure, I could have told you that a decade ago. In fact, I kind of love it about her... in other ways than her being with other guys.

The thing is, what do do about it now...


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Sure, I could have told you that a decade ago. In fact, I kind of love it about her... in other ways than her being with other guys.
> 
> The thing is, what do do about it now...


You suck it up and live with your choice, rise above her petty b.s.....

Or....

...you know.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> The thing is, what do do about it now...



Call her out on her sh*t and tell her its disrespectful and that you do NOT want to hear about how she fcked so and so.

or you could also start telling her about all the women you've fcked and how much they liked when you went down on them and did XYZ.

That ought to get her attention.

What's good for the goose.


----------



## treyvion

jaharthur said:


> I was going to disagree with this, but before I made a fool of myself I noticed the word "assume."
> 
> That's fair enough. But is it fair for a partner to ask, "How come?" Your answer is satisfactory. "Because" may not be. And certainly is some cases it IS because of lack of attraction to the current partner.


I'd say this is over 1/2 of the cases, jack... And in many of the other half, it's that they are fantasizing about something else out there in the world.


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> Call her out on her sh*t and tell her its disrespectful and that you do NOT want to hear about how she fcked so and so.
> 
> or you could also start telling her about all the women you've fcked and how much they liked when you went down on them and did XYZ.
> 
> That ought to get her attention.
> 
> What's good for the goose.


She doesn't care about it either way.

When I ask her to stop, she does for a while, or it lessens, and then she has a few drinks and starts spouting stuff off... or we'll be chatting about something that will remind her of someone she dated... or whatever.

I went down the path of telling her about my past to see if she'd shut the hell up. Trust me. Gory details.

She didn't care. In fact, she was fascinated. I could talk to her about that stuff all day long.

It's weird. She's quite possessive and insecure. But not about the past.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'm not violent but that kind of sh*t makes me want to put my fist through someone's face.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> She doesn't care about it either way.
> 
> When I ask her to stop, she does for a while, or it lessens, and then she has a few drinks and starts spouting stuff off... or we'll be chatting about something that will remind her of someone she dated... or whatever.
> 
> I went down the path of telling her about my past to see if she'd shut the hell up. Trust me. Gory details.
> 
> She didn't care. In fact, she was fascinated. I could talk to her about that stuff all day long.
> 
> It's weird. She's quite possessive and insecure. But not about the past.


Then I don't know what to tell you. Truly bizarre. I just know I wouldn't be able to be with someone who thinks so little of me to do that and think it's ok.


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm not violent but that kind of sh*t makes me want to put my fist through someone's face.


sorry, what?


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> Then I don't know what to tell you. Truly bizarre. I just know I wouldn't be able to be with someone who thinks so little of me to do that and think it's ok.


Ok, no worries. You've given me a LOT to think about and I appreciate it.

Thank you.


----------



## GTdad

marduk said:


> When I ask her to stop, she does for a while, or it lessens, and then she has a few drinks and starts spouting stuff off... or we'll be chatting about something that will remind her of someone she dated... or whatever.


Crazy. I may or may not care what my wife's done with other men but one thing's for sure: I sure as hell don't want to hear about it unless for some unguessable reason I'm the one asking about it.

I've never told my wife to "shut up"; that's one of the "forbidden" phrases in our house. But I'd sure as hell be breaking the house rules in that instance. Probably not phrased that politely, either.


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> Call her out on her sh*t and tell her its disrespectful and that you do NOT want to hear about how she fcked so and so.
> 
> or you could also start telling her about all the women you've fcked and how much they liked when you went down on them and did XYZ.
> 
> That ought to get her attention.
> 
> What's good for the goose.


He's says it doesn't bother her. You know, there is one possibility about Marduk's wife that we haven't explored: what if she gets off hearing him talk about the women he's bedded? And what if she expects the same of him. It could be her kink.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> sorry, what?


The crap your wife does.Sorry it's just infuriating to me,that's all.


----------



## bandit.45

Marduk, ask your wife is she gets off hearing what you did with other women.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> Marduk, ask your wife is she gets off hearing what you did with other women.


We have your typical fantasies we talk about in the heat of the moment, but these aren't that.

More clinical. Offhand. Just conversation. Like the weather, or celebrity gossip, or a joke she just heard.

Imagine you're sitting there with your buddies having a beer and your buddy says "wow, the young office hottie was wearing a killer skirt that showed off her a$$" and you laugh about it.

Only the buddy is your wife talking about some other dude's wang.


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> The crap your wife does.Sorry it's just infuriating to me,that's all.


Oh, ok. So I'm not crazy.

That's why this whole thing triggered this crazy response. I didn't even realize it bugged me so much.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> Oh, ok. So I'm not crazy.
> 
> That's why this whole thing triggered this crazy response. I didn't even realize it bugged me so much.


It's different if you're asking. I'm nosy..I had to know a lot of details about DH's sexual history bc I found it interesting and useful bc of the way he is about sex.

But my ex used to make the innuendos about his past and direct comments,he wasn't even drunk when doing it. It's not ok to do it when the person isn't asking for details.


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's different if you're asking. I'm nosy..I had to know a lot of details about DH's sexual history bc I found it interesting and useful bc of the way he is about sex.
> 
> But my ex used to make the innuendos about his past and direct comments,he wasn't even drunk when doing it. It's not ok to do it when the person isn't asking for details.


Sure, and I'm cool with that. I'm cool with asking if she's done X before and does she want to do it again or whatever.

Hell, I'm cool with ANY answer as long as I'm asking for it and she's being honest.

Just don't want it coming out at random intervals or inappropriate times (like a romantic dinner) or even in front of others (like drinking beers with close friends around the campfire) which has also happened.

Bah, I'm focusing too much on it now. Giving it too much power. There's lots that's great about our marriage, and it only happens every once in a while.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> Just don't want it coming out at random intervals or inappropriate times (like a romantic dinner) or even in front of others (like drinking beers with close friends around the campfire) which has also happened.
> 
> Bah, I'm focusing too much on it now. Giving it too much power.


I feel you're totally justified in this expectation. I wonder if she does it for attention...as a way to show how sexually awesome she is/was and how hot she is?


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk...what you are describing really SUCKS and I wouldn't enjoy it one bit!

But, why do you allow that sort of disrespect? 

You really don't have to allow her "let it all hang out there" attitude cross the line of disrespect with you.

Boundaries.


----------



## GTdad

marduk said:


> Bah, I'm focusing too much on it now. *Giving it too much power*.


Unrelated to your concerns, I'm totally stealing this for use in those times when I'm spending too much thinking about something that pisses me off.

So thanks. You taught somebody something today.


----------



## Marduk

GTdad said:


> Unrelated to your concerns, I'm totally stealing this for use in those times when I'm spending too much thinking about something that pisses me off.
> 
> So thanks. You taught somebody something today.


Hey, thanks, any time.

In martial arts, to focus on a thing is to give it power over you.

If you focus on your opponent's hands, you don't know what the rest of his body is doing, and he can lead you with his hands to where he wants you.

You don't focus on any particular thing, you just act. That's how you remain free to do as you please in a fight.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> marduk...what you are describing really SUCKS and I wouldn't enjoy it one bit!
> 
> But, why do you allow that sort of disrespect?
> 
> You really don't have to allow her "let it all hang out there" attitude cross the line of disrespect with you.
> 
> Boundaries.


Honestly, it's because she gives me affection, is hot, is the mother of my children, and does just about anything for me. She's smart, beautiful, and a good mother.

And I could never complain about her not being honest with me. Which was a big deal after being in a sexless marriage to a cheating wife.


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I feel you're totally justified in this expectation. I wonder if she does it for attention...as a way to show how sexually awesome she is/was and how hot she is?


I think we have a winner.

Plus, I think she has a huge ego and a fundamental lack of respect for me that I learned to tolerate somewhere along the way.

That shows in more ways than just this.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> I think we have a winner.
> 
> Plus, I think she has a huge ego and a fundamental lack of respect for me that I learned to tolerate somewhere along the way.
> 
> That shows in more ways than just this.


That's why we need to get across to newlywed who come I this site the importance of setting boundaries early on and sticking to them, even upon pain of divorce.


----------



## Jellybeans

Faithful Wife said:


> But, why do you allow that sort of disrespect?


:iagree:

I have heard it all now. The fact that a man would willingly marry a woman, and make her his wife, who does this to him, is completely beyond me.


----------



## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I have heard it all now. The fact that a man would willingly marry a woman, and make her his wife, who does this to him, is completely beyond me.


Well, I remember being young and stupid and not really cognizant of what was going on at the time I married my ex. I was really clueless, as I suspect Marduk was. 

Hindsight....


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I have heard it all now. The fact that a man would willingly marry a woman, and make her his wife, who does this to him, is completely beyond me.


Well, let's not take this too far.

As I said, I'm no sl*t shamer. I'm quite open and forthright about sex.

She's smart. Like, multiple degrees smart. Extremely beautiful. Wise in many ways. Passionate. Sexual. Kind and compassionate in other ways. Extremely honest and forthright. Fiesty. Fiery. Think Sophia Vergara in "Modern Family."

Have you ever seen that episode where she goes on and on to Jay about having crazy sex all the time every where over and over again with her ex? It's like that. But he puts up with it because he loves her, and she's hot, and she's great in many other ways.

Honestly, there's only a handful of stuff I'd change about her. She puts me on cloud 9 a lot of the time.

Then something like this would happen... and I'd feel like an idiot for letting it bother me... and I'd get over it and she'd make me happy again. And it would go weeks or months before happening again.

And it IS something I'm too sensitive about. It bothers me for days when it happens.

And maybe I AM to possessive and jealous and insecure at times.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have never felt there is anything wrong with possessiveness and jealousy. But what you are talking about is just...wrong.


----------



## treyvion

ScarletBegonias said:


> I feel you're totally justified in this expectation. I wonder if she does it for attention...as a way to show how sexually awesome she is/was and how hot she is?


It might not even be that. Perhaps she's only reminiscing.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> I have never felt there is anything wrong with possessiveness and jealousy. But what you are talking about is just...wrong.


But it's his reality. And he accepts it.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> marduk...what you are describing really SUCKS and I wouldn't enjoy it one bit!
> 
> *But, why do you allow that sort of disrespect? *
> 
> You really don't have to allow her "let it all hang out there" attitude cross the line of disrespect with you.
> 
> Boundaries.


Because it's usually not framed as disrespect. It is because men are being force fed a steady diet of how insecure it makes them look, how mysoginistic they are for wanting to deny the sexuality of women if they don't accept this, how it is judgemental and holding it against her, how her past has nothing to do with him...essentially men are societally shamed.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> But it's his reality. And he accepts it.


Well, I don't.

I did when we were dating, for a short time. Then I asked her to stop.

And it went away for a little while. Enough that we got engaged, moved in together.

Then it would happen every once in a while. And I'd lose my crap on her. And she'd agree to stop (pretty passive aggressively though saying it was really all my insecurity that was the problem).

So we get married. Start having kids right away (which was why we got married instead of just lived together). And it would still come out every once in a while. Like, once or twice a year. And I'd demand that she stop.

Even to the point of just getting up and walking out. Or almost splitting up. Or not talking to her for days. Or going on and on about other women. Or whatever it would take for her to just shut the hell up.

And she would. For a while. Until it happened again. And on and on, dripping the "insecurity" line. Which maybe has some truth to it. I'm a dude, after all. Deep down I want her to just be mine. And she wasn't, and I knew it. And her talking about the past doesn't change the past. And shouldn't people be able to share everything?

Well, sure, in the abstract or intellectual sense. 

But seriously. Imagine being married to Gloria from modern family. You put up with a lot.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> As I said, I'm no sl*t shamer. I'm quite open and forthright about sex.


This isn't about sl*t shaming. This is about the fact you are married to someone who think it's totally fine to talk to you that way and you tolerate it.

Don't get it twisted. 



bandit.45 said:


> But it's his reality. And he accepts it.


Yes. :iagree:


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> Because it's usually not framed as disrespect. It is because men are being force fed a steady diet of how insecure it makes them look, how mysoginistic they are for wanting to deny the sexuality of women if they don't accept this, how it is judgemental and holding it against her, how her past has nothing to do with him...essentially men are societally shamed.


It's exactly that, thank you.


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> It's exactly that, thank you.


You did notice, I take it, that as you began to relay your story, the immediate assumption was that you were insecure and mysoginistic? Only after you reiterated the same things a few times did the assumption shift.


----------



## GTdad

samyeagar said:


> You did notice, I take it, that as you began to relay your story, the immediate assumption was that you were insecure and mysoginistic? Only after you reiterated the same things a few times did the assumption shift.


Now he's a cowering milquetoast. What next, I wonder.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Well, I don't.
> 
> I did when we were dating, for a short time. Then I asked her to stop.
> 
> And it went away for a little while. Enough that we got engaged, moved in together.
> 
> Then it would happen every once in a while. And I'd lose my crap on her. And she'd agree to stop (pretty passive aggressively though saying it was really all my insecurity that was the problem).
> 
> So we get married. Start having kids right away (which was why we got married instead of just lived together). And it would still come out every once in a while. Like, once or twice a year. And I'd demand that she stop.
> 
> Even to the point of just getting up and walking out. Or almost splitting up. Or not talking to her for days. Or going on and on about other women. Or whatever it would take for her to just shut the hell up.
> 
> And she would. For a while. Until it happened again. And on and on, dripping the "insecurity" line. Which maybe has some truth to it. I'm a dude, after all. Deep down I want her to just be mine. And she wasn't, and I knew it. And her talking about the past doesn't change the past. And shouldn't people be able to share everything?
> 
> Well, sure, in the abstract or intellectual sense.
> 
> But seriously. Imagine being married to Gloria from modern family. You put up with a lot.


So there were opportunities for you to walk away before marriage. 

But you weighted the pros and cons of staying with her, and you allowed your d!ck to influence a large portion of that decision. You go on about how hot she is, how smart she is, how sophisticated....

You married Mame. 

Key serah serah ....

She loves to show off how sexually liberated and cosmopolitan she is, and when she is drunk all barriers fall.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Because it's usually not framed as disrespect. It is because men are being force fed a steady diet of how insecure it makes them look, how mysoginistic they are for wanting to deny the sexuality of women if they don't accept this, how it is judgemental and holding it against her, how her past has nothing to do with him...essentially men are societally shamed.


Sam, are you talking about yourself, or other men?

Because with your specific circumstances (the step-son, as just one example, and your wife's other areas of blatant disregard for your feelings) (though some of that has changed now) are you saying anyone has "shamed" YOU as just being judgemental, if they knew the details?

And can you accept that some men, ones who do NOT have your type of circumstances, really ARE sl*t shamers, or no?


----------



## larry.gray

Yeah, plenty of men are slvt shaming misogynists. 

But among the real life people I know, the women are far harder on each other than the men are. My wife is really bad about it. 

I wonder if it is jealousy - they resent that some women are able to let their freak flag fly. They don't want other women to get away with stepping out of line.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

larry.gray said:


> Yeah, plenty of men are slvt shaming misogynists.
> 
> But among the real life people I know, the women are far harder on each other than the men are. My wife is really bad about it.
> 
> I wonder if it is jealousy - they resent that some women are able to let their freak flag fly. They don't want other women to get away with stepping out of line.


Oh yeah,definitely this. Women are way more harsh on other women,from what I've been through w/women anyway.


----------



## Thor

ScarletBegonias said:


> Some of us were just REALLY f**ked up young people and did what they felt they had to do in order to be loved and be given attention.


To me this is a valid reason to not do something with your current partner. What is not valid, to me, is "I loved it with the other guy, I think about it fondly, I still like the idea of doing it today, but I don't like the idea of doing it with you".


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Thor said:


> What is not valid, to me, is "I loved it with the other guy, I think about it fondly, I still like the idea of doing it today, but I don't like the idea of doing it with you".


I don't think many people would find that to be a valid reason.


----------



## larry.gray

I can relate an example with my wife and I about recent events. 

We met in college; both are big sports fans of 'our' university. The in state arch rivals recently had a big scandal where 3 of their student athletes were accused of gang raping a 18 y/o freshman. I do enjoy hating on the teams, so at first I took some schadenfreude from it - not what happened to the girl, but in that they were experiencing more problems.

But no charges came from it. Lots of accusations of a coverup from the lack of charges. In his defense, the DA released a report that pretty much exonerated the guys. Multiple disinterested witnesses were tracked down and stated that she was willing and not acting drunk. That the activities involved all three guys at a party, and she went willingly to one of the guys house to continue even though friends tried to talk her out of it. 

When she came back around the next day, she told her friends about what happened. They said she sounded proud what a "big girl" she was for having fun that way. Then the slvt word started in, and three days later her story changed to rape.

I was commenting to wifey that these three guys are going through the ringer, their lives are turned upside down, because of these other girls being hard on her. Wifey just piled right on, saying that she was indeed a slvt if she had a four way with three guys willingly.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> Can you talk more about this?
> 
> How is honesty/openness a red flag?
> 
> At any rate, what do I do about it now? Get over my possessiveness or jealousy or mysoginy or whatever it is (I've never had anyone complain of this in any of my relationships)? Just become cool with it and somehow don't let it impact me or our relationship?
> 
> She honestly doesn't seem to understand what the issue is.


My wife does similar stuff, though she heavily edits what she reveals. That is, she doesn't reveal much of the truth, but sometimes she reveals something which is pretty significant.

My IC has looked at me a bit aghast a few times and then remarked that it was very _insensitive_ of my wife to have told me that, and to have done it in that way.

So I think the red flag is her insensitivity to your feelings. And as an aside on it, it is a red flag that she recalls some of those things. Instead of recalling in a general sense she used to come to the boardwalk with friends, she recalls and then blurts out that she and her boyfriends would come down and have sex under the boardwalk (after they won her various stuffed animals in the arcade games). So not only is it insensitive to blurt it out, it is concerning that she is thinking about them rather than thinking "being here with my husband is great, it is a really nice place that I used to enjoy visiting but now it is even more special to me".


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> She doesn't care about it either way.
> 
> When I ask her to stop, she does for a while, or it lessens, and then she has a few drinks and starts spouting stuff off... or we'll be chatting about something that will remind her of someone she dated... or whatever.


I think you should have a cold businesslike talk with her about this. _Almost_ like a boss talking to a subordinate. Tell her that while you don't have any bad judgments about her related to her past experiences, it can be very painful to you when she tells you these gory details or blurts out something. Then repeat a bit, telling her that when she does this it causes you deep pain. Tell her it feels as if she doesn't respect your feelings, and it sometimes feels as if she is intentionally trying to put you down or to exert control.

So there you have told her 3 times in one quick minute that she is causing you pain when she does this.

Then, you tell her that you wish she would find a way to stifle her impulses to blurt these things out, because you do not like being hurt by her.

So now you have asked her to do something specific, which is to stifle the outbursts. If you don't have a conversation such as this, she may not understand the type of hurt she is causing. This kind of stern direct conversation may be needed to create the impact on her necessary for her to realize she should change.

My wife has a completely different thought process about sex etc than I do, and she is completely unaware that it can cause real pain. I know she thinks I'm dumb and a Neanderthal for feeling the way I do about some things, which isn't great either, but I'd rather she think that silently than speak up and cause pain.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> For a while. Until it happened again. And on and on, dripping the "insecurity" line. Which maybe has some truth to it. I'm a dude, after all.


You might really enjoy the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith. He has some great tools as well as some interesting philosophy in the book which applies.

You own your own imperfections by agreeing. Yes, you're a dude and absolutely it triggers your insecurities! Yes, you want to be her one and only, and while you can't change the past you can feel like her one and only in the present time if she doesn't remind you about other men. Yes, it is ok for you to have this need and desire not to hear these kinds of things the way she tells them to you.

You can Fog her. "Yes, dear, I am being insecure when I feel hurt by your stories of past lovers". This takes away the power of the attempt to shame you when she says or implies you are defective when you are insecure. Yes, I am insecure!!!

You can use Broken Record. When she tries to deflect or change the topic, you just repeat versions of the main message. "It hurts when you say those things". "When you suddenly remember and then blurt out about another man it hurts". "It is painful to hear those stories".

You can use Negative Inquiry. "In what way am I being insecure?".

You can reflect back at her so that she feels you are not arguing with her. "So what you feel is that I should not be insecure about our relationship when you talk about your previous relationships. Is that correct?".

Anyhow, the book is excellent and well worth reading.


----------



## Thor

samyeagar said:


> Because it's usually not framed as disrespect. It is because men are being force fed a steady diet of how insecure it makes them look, how mysoginistic they are for wanting to deny the sexuality of women if they don't accept this, how it is judgemental and holding it against her, how her past has nothing to do with him...essentially men are societally shamed.


We need a term equivalent to Slvt Shaming for this. Nut Shaming? Cave Man Shaming? Omega Shaming?


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> We need a term equivalent to Slvt Shaming for this. Nut Shaming? Cave Man Shaming? Omega Shaming?


Rediculing and shaming a male for having natural male impulses. :scratchhead:


----------



## bandit.45

treyvion said:


> Rediculing and shaming a male for having natural male impulses. :scratchhead:


Today must be Thor's self loathing day.


----------



## Thor

bandit.45 said:


> Today must be Thor's self loathing day.


I've been working on my self esteem.

How many pilots does it take to screw in a light bulb? One. He holds the light bulb and the world revolves around him.

Yup, my ego is fine today!


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam, are you talking about yourself, or other men?
> 
> Because with your specific circumstances (the step-son, as just one example, and your wife's other areas of blatant disregard for your feelings) (though some of that has changed now) are you saying anyone has "shamed" YOU as just being judgemental, if they knew the details?
> 
> *And can you accept that some men, ones who do NOT have your type of circumstances, really ARE sl*t shamers, or no?*


Starting with the bolded...of course. Plenty of it going on on the "Women who have sex on the first date" thread. That said, can you accept that the shaming I have described, that several other men here can identify with is just as real?

Regarding the issue of my wife and step son, which granted is a very out there situation, I was indeed told to get over myself, told to stop being so judgmental. Most people did see the difficulty in the situation we were in because it went WAY beyond the actual act. If the step son was not coming to live with us, she likely would not have told me, nor would I have blamed her for not. It was pretty messed up and if he wasn't going to be a part of our lives, then the past should be left in the past.

The thing that gets me, and I really wish some people could understand is that saying "The past is the past", well, it's no longer the past if it is being brought into the present.

I really do think societal stereotypes of men are at play here in that it has caused somewhat of a good for the goose scenario and mindset in some women...since men have been able to do all these things, since men can brag about it, then women can too, but the part that is missed is that a lot of men AREN'T like that, and that kind of behavior has no part in a relationship, that it is indeed disrespectful, and shouldn't happen from either partner.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Starting with the bolded...of course. Plenty of it going on on the "Women who have sex on the first date" thread. That said, can you accept that the shaming I have described, that several other men here can identify with is just as real?
> 
> Regarding the issue of my wife and step son, which granted is a very out there situation, *I was indeed told to get over myself, told to stop being so judgmental.* Most people did see the difficulty in the situation we were in because it went WAY beyond the actual act. If the step son was not coming to live with us, she likely would not have told me, nor would I have blamed her for not. It was pretty messed up and if he wasn't going to be a part of our lives, then the past should be left in the past.
> 
> The thing that gets me, and I really wish some people could understand is that saying "The past is the past", well, it's no longer the past if it is being brought into the present.
> 
> I really do think societal stereotypes of men are at play here in that it has caused somewhat of a good for the goose scenario and mindset in some women...since men have been able to do all these things, since men can brag about it, then women can too, but the part that is missed is that a lot of men AREN'T like that, and that kind of behavior has no part in a relationship, that it is indeed disrespectful, and shouldn't happen from either partner.


As for the bolded....WHAT????

Ok, I didn't realize that. Men or women said this to you, or both? And WTF??? That is just nuts, given your particular circumstances.

As for the rest...(and let's assume we're talking about average RA, not an extreme sitch like yours), I don't know, I don't think the "jealousy" shaming is a gender thing. I see men AND women saying to women "stop being so jealous about porn/other women in general" and I see women AND men saying to men "stop being so jealous about her past".

Sl*t shaming is specific and almost 100% done to women (yes, by both men and women).

Jealousy in general I do not see just shaming the men, I see women shamed for jealousy, too.

(thanks for the comment about the first date thread, btw...I don't even bother reading that one because I already know what it says without having to read it)


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> You married Mame.


Who's Mame?


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> I think you should have a cold businesslike talk with her about this. _Almost_ like a boss talking to a subordinate. Tell her that while you don't have any bad judgments about her related to her past experiences, it can be very painful to you when she tells you these gory details or blurts out something. Then repeat a bit, telling her that when she does this it causes you deep pain. Tell her it feels as if she doesn't respect your feelings, and it sometimes feels as if she is intentionally trying to put you down or to exert control.
> 
> So there you have told her 3 times in one quick minute that she is causing you pain when she does this.
> 
> Then, you tell her that you wish she would find a way to stifle her impulses to blurt these things out, because you do not like being hurt by her.
> 
> So now you have asked her to do something specific, which is to stifle the outbursts. If you don't have a conversation such as this, she may not understand the type of hurt she is causing. This kind of stern direct conversation may be needed to create the impact on her necessary for her to realize she should change.
> 
> My wife has a completely different thought process about sex etc than I do, and she is completely unaware that it can cause real pain. I know she thinks I'm dumb and a Neanderthal for feeling the way I do about some things, which isn't great either, but I'd rather she think that silently than speak up and cause pain.


Thanks, it's really appreciated.

But I had this talk with her 15 years ago. And 14 years ago. And 13 years ago. You get the idea.

She cools it for a while. Then when she's "just being herself" and I'm nicely in the zone, comfortable, in wuv... whammo. That's when she does it.

She says it's because that's just the way she is and she doesn't mean anything by it, and she just gets comfortable with me so this stuff comes out.

I think it's BS tho. Combo of her high ego, trying to maintain power, and lack of respect or empathy.


----------



## Catherine602

Women side with men because they see men as holding all of the social cards as it relates to the free expression of female sexuality. I doubt that they really feel that way but they don't want to risk being labeled a [email protected] so they say the politically correct thing. The women who shame the most are most likely to have either behaved sexually free at some point in their lives or wish they had. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Lots of comments today.

Fortunately this problem doesn't repeat too often. We (men and women alike) make mistakes and say something we shouldn't have on occasion. Then the response lets us know not to do it again.

The solution now that she knows OP didn't want to hear this is to make sure he doesn't hear it again. As for OP, pressuring her to do something she doesn't want to will probably backfire (no pun intended).


----------



## Csquare

Thor said:


> My wife does similar stuff, though she heavily edits what she reveals. That is, she doesn't reveal much of the truth, but sometimes she reveals something which is pretty significant.
> 
> My IC has looked at me a bit aghast a few times and then remarked that it was very _insensitive_ of my wife to have told me that, and to have done it in that way.
> 
> So I think the red flag is her insensitivity to your feelings. And as an aside on it, it is a red flag that she recalls some of those things. Instead of recalling in a general sense she used to come to the boardwalk with friends, she recalls and then blurts out that she and her boyfriends would come down and have sex under the boardwalk (after they won her various stuffed animals in the arcade games). So not only is it insensitive to blurt it out, it is concerning that she is thinking about them rather than thinking "being here with my husband is great, it is a really nice place that I used to enjoy visiting but now it is even more special to me".


Marduk, and OP, your wives have behaviors - an inability to withhold information about her sexual past in a way that is similar to what Thor has experienced with his wife. In previous posts, 
Thor has revealed that his wife had been sexually abused.

Has your wife been sexually abused?

If so, that would mess *big time* with her boundaries and self-respect - as well as her ability to respect your request for silence on this matter. It seems she is unable to fully suppress her impulse to talk about sexual matters. If she has repressed memories of sexual abuse, it could be her sexual past is bubbling up to the surface. She may now be strong enough - and safe enough - to face her past. But she needs to know that you will continue to love and respect her.

This is all conjectural and speculative, of course. But there are inconsistencies in her *loose* talk yet she seems devoted to you in every way that matters. Sexual abuse may explain the contradictions.


----------



## Marduk

Csquare said:


> Has your wife been sexually abused?


Not to my knowledge, and with what I know I think I'd know.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> Thanks, it's really appreciated.
> 
> But I had this talk with her 15 years ago. And 14 years ago. And 13 years ago. You get the idea.
> 
> She cools it for a while. Then when she's "just being herself" and I'm nicely in the zone, comfortable, in wuv... whammo. That's when she does it.
> 
> She says it's because that's just the way she is and she doesn't mean anything by it, and she just gets comfortable with me so this stuff comes out.
> 
> I think it's BS tho. Combo of her high ego, trying to maintain power, and lack of respect or empathy.


Well then you need some form of boundary and consequence. Something to shake her up and make her really think about what she is doing. Very little cannot be changed about our behavior if we try, and she too can learn to change her behavior.

I don't know what an effective consequence is for this. I know that my wife does and says stuff because: 
A) She has a very different and much more casual view of sex than I do
B) She doesn't respect my views as being valid or worth her consideration
C) She doesn't care if she causes me emotional pain (because my views are stupid and silly and different than hers)

It is tough to come up with a good consequence other than maybe go away alone for the weekend or something similar.

I do wonder if some 3rd party validation of your views would help her understand better. That is, if a MC or your pastor or somebody she respects would tell her that your hurt is normal and her behavior is out of line, perhaps she would believe it more?


----------



## Marduk

Well, we had a massive talk about it last night. 

It wasn't pretty. The "you're being insecure" line came out, the "you're not my best friend that I can tell anything to" line came out, the whole nine yards. 

I stuck with it though. Thanks to knowing I'm not insane. 

We set some boundaries that I think were reasonable - basically we can talk about anything but chill on the gory details, show some sensitivity and respect. 

What's different this time? I told her that this was disrespectful, obnoxious, and an obvious power play. And that it hurts me, and therefore our relationship.

I gave her the option: I can see sex with her as a casual fun but not serious thing, or something more. Same goes for our marriage. 

I used the sex tape analogy - if I had a sex tape of my previous romps, would she want to watch them with me? What if I forced her to? How would she feel about me/us? Would she compare herself to 20 year old hotties with tight young bodies that would go all night and wonder if I missed that or thought about that when I'm with her? What if she felt like I was thinking about them all the time?

She chose wanting more and said she never really got why it was an issue until that point. And she pretty much broke down and called herself an idiot for putting me through so much crap pointlessly. 

So, thanks all. I'm skeptical - but maybe she gets it more now. 

Appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I Don't Know

The sex tape thing was good. I'm not sure if people who aren't bothered by this stuff experience mind movies. I think they can hear the details but they don't really picture it, or if they do maybe they don't really picture YOU as the one doing it. Or something like that? If that's the case maybe comparing it to a tape would really get the point across that they just couldn't imagine before.


----------



## jld

When DH tells me things about his past, I figure it's on me how I deal with it. He loves me, he's with _me._ My reaction to anything in his past is my issue. It reveals an insecurity that I can work on.

And if I really can't handle his bringing it up, I can tell him. "Honey, I know you don't mean to hurt me when you talk about that. But for some reason it really bothers me. Could we talk about it?"


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> Well, we had a massive talk about it last night.
> 
> It wasn't pretty. The "you're being insecure" line came out, the "you're not my best friend that I can tell anything to" line came out, the whole nine yards.
> 
> I stuck with it though. Thanks to knowing I'm not insane.
> 
> We set some boundaries that I think were reasonable - basically we can talk about anything but chill on the gory details, show some sensitivity and respect.
> 
> What's different this time? I told her that this was disrespectful, obnoxious, and an obvious power play. And that it hurts me, and therefore our relationship.
> 
> I gave her the option: I can see sex with her as a casual fun but not serious thing, or something more. Same goes for our marriage.
> 
> I used the sex tape analogy - if I had a sex tape of my previous romps, would she want to watch them with me? What if I forced her to? How would she feel about me/us? Would she compare herself to 20 year old hotties with tight young bodies that would go all night and wonder if I missed that or thought about that when I'm with her? What if she felt like I was thinking about them all the time?
> 
> She chose wanting more and said she never really got why it was an issue until that point. And she pretty much broke down and called herself an idiot for putting me through so much crap pointlessly.
> 
> So, thanks all. I'm skeptical - but maybe she gets it more now.
> 
> Appreciate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


VERY proud of you for standing your ground on this one. It shows that you are sure of yourself and really have what it takes to keep boundaries in place. 

I hope she gets it and realizes the error of her ways.


----------



## Jellybeans

marduk said:


> I used the sex tape analogy - if I had a sex tape of my previous romps, would she want to watch them with me? What if I forced her to? How would she feel about me/us? Would she compare herself to 20 year old hotties with tight young bodies that would go all night and wonder if I missed that or thought about that when I'm with her? What if she felt like I was thinking about them all the time?
> 
> She chose wanting more and said she never really got why it was an issue until that point. And she pretty much broke down and called herself an idiot for putting me through so much crap pointlessly.
> 
> So, thanks all. I'm skeptical - but maybe she gets it more now.
> 
> Appreciate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> I'd LOVE to believe that, trust me.
> 
> However I made it abundantly obvious when we started dating, got engaged, got married, and multiple times since then that I'm open to talking about her past if there's something she wants to talk about, or something's bothering her, or whatever... but if it's pointless then I'd rather not know, and certainly not know the gory details.
> 
> And I've explicitly asked her not to tell me how many guys she's been with.
> 
> But every once in a while... once a year or so... she throws some crap out there... and I see another notch in the bedpost and picture her doing this (graphic stuff) with some other guy...
> 
> It's not like "please stop asking me to do X I did it with Y and didn't like it" or "I'm remembering doing this before and it upsets me" or whatever. *It's like we'll be sitting there out for dinner and she'll blurt out that she did some guy in the bathroom while she was at a party when she was young and all the things she did with him even though they just met. Just randomly like that.
> 
> And I have to wonder why she does that.*
> Again, this isn't just my wife. It's a few other girlfriends, too. Maybe it's the ones I pick.
> 
> Or maybe I'm too open with other crap about my life, and she translates that into being open about her sexual past. Even though I'm not with mine unless she specifically asks me to be.


Marduk:
(bolded) how do you respond to her when she does that? does she ever say this kind of stuff when others are around?

edit: OMG I missed the post about the huge confrontation you had with her, which had her in tears etc. well done!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> Well, it looks like I did.
> 
> I'm pretty open minded in general about sex and our relationship was so good in so many other areas that I'd just try to get past when she'd do this kind of thing. It wouldn't even be "oh, I dated Jim and it was really intense but short lived..."
> 
> It would be "that reminds me of this guy that was just a fling I did for fun, we weren't even dating, just screwing, and he really loved it when I did X and Y and Z with him but it didn't mean anything... why do you look so upset? It's the past before you it doesn't mean anything don't be all insecure about it, it's such a turn-off!" ... and I'd put down my fork at the fancy restaurant I'd taken her for a special date night away just the two of us without the kids.
> 
> And again, I didn't expect to marry a virgin. I purposefully wanted to be with someone that enjoyed sex.
> 
> And even though it happens _less_, it still _happens_.
> 
> I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's a respect thing. I used to think it just bothered me because I was insecure, and I still would like to be all super mr secure about the whole thing.
> 
> But I just don't want it thrown in my face, or picture it, or have it just come out at random inappropriate times.
> 
> I just don't think she respects or cares about my feelings... I think she feels like an empowered sexual woman who's proud of her past experiences, and just wants to throw it in my face to keep me in my place or something. And she wants me to know and think about her being with other guys because it gives her a sense of freedom and power and control.
> 
> In fact, a lot of things are starting to make sense because of lack of respect.
> 
> THANK YOU JELLYBEAN even though I made you mad.
> 
> I think you just really helped me.
> 
> Apologies OP for the threadjack, you obviously triggered something in me that I need to work on and think about.


don't apologize. Your story about you and your wife is more interesting, and IMO more credible than the story the OP (who I think has been gone from TAM for about 7 months) related to initiate this thread. I don't think the OP himself was a troll but I'm no longer inclined to accept his story as he presented it.....


----------



## Marduk

Jellybeans said:


> This thread is specifically about women "throwing in the face" of their husband all the sex acts they did with other men and "refusing" to do it with them.


OK, to come back to the original topic after my massive threadjack, I'd still have a problem if I knew there were things she was willing to do with others but not me.

However, I've never had this experience personally so I can't say for sure... but it would probably upset me.

Unless of course she tried it and didn't like it.

If she came out with "I used to love doing X with guy Y but I'd never do that with _you_" that would be pretty hurtful.

Oh, and X would now become my new mission in life of course.

I'm a primate. Some things I can't help.


----------



## Marduk

nuclearnightmare said:


> Marduk:
> (bolded) how do you respond to her when she does that? does she ever say this kind of stuff when others are around?


I'd ask a few questions that I couldn't help... like "who was he to you" or "why did you do that with him" that would usually take us to dark places and were a mistake.

Then I'd tell her that it hurts me, and she'd respond that I was being insecure and not letting the past be the past etc. And then I'd shut up and get quiet for a few hours (or a few days depending on what she said) and then bounce back.

Usually she'd do something nice for me the next day or that night knowing she'd hurt me.

She has said it with others around... once when we were just casually dating and I overheard her talking with her girlfriends (she didn't care that I could hear), once when she was talking to my friends wife and she didn't know I could hear (no gory details here, just talking about some dude I didn't know about), and once around the campfire when she thought she was being funny (and we were all drunk). She actually meant the last one as a compliment to me on my sexual abilities compared to another guy but nobody needed to hear those details.

There may be more, but that's what I remember offhand. The vast majority is just with me. But the "just with me" times are quite often at a romantic meal together, on a plane ride away for a weekend just the two of us, or some other snuggly wuvvy time that massively would catch me off guard and wreck the whole thing.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> Well, let's not take this too far.
> 
> As I said, I'm no sl*t shamer. I'm quite open and forthright about sex.
> 
> She's smart. Like, multiple degrees smart. Extremely beautiful. Wise in many ways. Passionate. Sexual. Kind and compassionate in other ways. Extremely honest and forthright. Fiesty. Fiery. Think Sophia Vergara in "Modern Family."
> 
> Have you ever seen that episode where she goes on and on to Jay about having crazy sex all the time every where over and over again with her ex? It's like that. But he puts up with it because he loves her, and she's hot, and she's great in many other ways.
> 
> Honestly, there's only a handful of stuff I'd change about her. She puts me on cloud 9 a lot of the time.
> 
> Then something like this would happen... and I'd feel like an idiot for letting it bother me... and I'd get over it and she'd make me happy again. And it would go weeks or months before happening again.
> 
> And it IS something I'm too sensitive about. It bothers me for days when it happens.
> 
> And maybe I AM to possessive and jealous and insecure at times.


but you just said (prev posts) that she displays a "fundamental" lack of respect for you....THAT quality in a spouse immediately removes them from the "awesome" category - in my book. sounds like you're minmizing....


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> Well, we had a massive talk about it last night.
> 
> It wasn't pretty. The "you're being insecure" line came out, the "you're not my best friend that I can tell anything to" line came out, the whole nine yards.
> 
> I stuck with it though. Thanks to knowing I'm not insane.
> 
> We set some boundaries that I think were reasonable - basically we can talk about anything but chill on the gory details, show some sensitivity and respect.
> 
> What's different this time? I told her that this was disrespectful, obnoxious, and an obvious power play. And that it hurts me, and therefore our relationship.
> 
> I gave her the option: I can see sex with her as a casual fun but not serious thing, or something more. Same goes for our marriage.
> 
> I used the sex tape analogy - if I had a sex tape of my previous romps, would she want to watch them with me? What if I forced her to? How would she feel about me/us? Would she compare herself to 20 year old hotties with tight young bodies that would go all night and wonder if I missed that or thought about that when I'm with her? What if she felt like I was thinking about them all the time?
> 
> She chose wanting more and said she never really got why it was an issue until that point. And she pretty much broke down and called herself an idiot for putting me through so much crap pointlessly.
> 
> So, thanks all. I'm skeptical - but maybe she gets it more now.
> 
> Appreciate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely understand this issue, because I had the same thing with my husband. For years I would get the "I dated this girl and we ....." at the most ridiculously inappropriate times. We talked about it a few times and it would stop for a while, then start up again. We'd be taking a bath together and he'd say "I dated this girl and we were in the bath and she stood up and hit her back". WTF? Who in their right mind thinks that's appropriate? And heaven forbid I'd mention stretch marks; I'd get "I dated this girl and she had stretch marks and we'd be having sex and she'd tell me to close my eyes". We were to dinner with another couple and he starts with how he had a girlfriend years ago and they went out and got really drunk and blah blah blah, poor couple looked really uncomfortable; even the husband knew it was ridiculous. I could go on and on with examples like this; things that anyone with one ounce of common sense would know were inappropriate.

We finally had it out one night where I just lost it; I told him that people who insist on talking about their exes are insecure and pathetic, nobody cares, and the next time he brought it up I'd get him a cookie because clearly he wanted kudos. I then proceeded to tell him all kinds of things about my past I'm sure he didn't want to know, like the huge c0ck on my first (and it was huge). That was over 3 years ago and it hasn't come up since.

I too see this as being about respect; I don't care that he has his past, but the constant injecting into our lives is very disrespectful. It also tells me his mind isn't here but on his past, which doesn't make me feel very good as his wife. I didn't bring up mine because that part of my life is over and has no place here. I don't think until that point he realized the damage he was doing.

Strangely enough, he never asked about my past. That told me that it wasn't about sharing because he clearly didn't want to know about mine, he just wanted to stick his in my face, maybe to balance whatever imbalance of power he perceived (he's a good bit older). I told him that if he couldn't handle the age gap without disrespecting me then he should've found someone his age.

I'm glad you guys talked and hopefully it will work itself out. To call someone "insecure" is extremely dismissive, but it sounds like maybe she gets it.


----------



## murphy5

lifeistooshort said:


> We finally had it out one night where I just lost it; I told him that people who insist on talking about their exes are insecure and pathetic, nobody cares, and the next time he brought it up I'd get him a cookie because clearly he wanted kudos. I then proceeded to tell him all kinds of things about my past I'm sure he didn't want to know, like the huge c0ck on my first (and it was huge). That was over 3 years ago and it hasn't come up since.


that can be an effective technique. Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others". 

But when their souse says "oh yeah, well my first guy had a MUCH bigger **** than yours, and I loved when he pushed it in....I had HUGE orgasms" it is like the **** hit the fan. Now everytime HE has one of those weird thoughts in his head, that image of your previous man's member sneaks in and spoils the whole moment. Aversion therapy :rofl: Like if your cat jumps up on the table and you spritz it with water!


----------



## lifeistooshort

murphy5 said:


> that can be an effective technique. Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> 
> But when their souse says "oh yeah, well my first guy had a MUCH bigger **** than yours, and I loved when he pushed it in....I had HUGE orgasms" it is like the **** hit the fan. Now everytime HE has one of those weird thoughts in his head, that image of your previous man's member sneaks in and spoils the whole moment. Aversion therapy :rofl: Like if your cat jumps up on the table and you spritz it with water!



Yeah, my ex was like that. Wanted to hear details....creeped me out. I didn't give my hb any further details, but I don't think he wanted what he got. Well now he knows what it feels like so he doesn't do it anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## omgitselaine

murphy5 said:


> Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Funny but it seems as if each and ever guy I had been intimate with has asked me or had been curious about my past ??? I figured it'd be better with " what you don't know won't hurt " but they've asked and I've always answered truthfully !!
> 
> I didnt know if they're checking if I'm holding out with anything they'd like to try or explore but I've never done such a thing ? I've always been open and willing to explore with each new lover just not to hear this " you did that with him but not with me " !?!?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## treyvion

omgitselaine said:


> murphy5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Funny but it seems as if each and ever guy I had been intimate with has asked me or had been curious about my past ??? I figured it'd be better with " what you don't know won't hurt " but they've asked and I've always answered truthfully !!
> 
> I didnt know if they're checking if I'm holding out with anything they'd like to try or explore but I've never done such a thing ? I've always been open and willing to explore with each new lover just not to hear this " you did that with him but not with me " !?!?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> Well you know why you probably never heard that? Because you were willing and wanted to explore with each new man that you called your lover. So there was nothing that was left off the table and they knew it.
> 
> With the other guys, it's some apparent boundaries and come to find out those are only boundaries for him. SO he's in a marginalized situation.
Click to expand...


----------



## mahike

Yes mens ego are a very fragile thing when it comes to sex. The thing that most women miss is that is how we gauge your love towards us. If you are open and willing and trusting then it translates into love to us.

Yes life is not all about sex. Woman get our expressions of love in many ways and being intimate can just be holding hands while watching TV. We need those naked moments with you to feel the same type of connection

So yes when we know that you did oral or had a stripper pole and we do not experience the same thing from you it is a bit crushing


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

omgitselaine said:


> murphy5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Funny but it seems as if each and ever guy I had been intimate with has asked me or had been curious about my past ??? I figured it'd be better with " what you don't know won't hurt " but they've asked and I've always answered truthfully !!
> 
> I didnt know if they're checking if I'm holding out with anything they'd like to try or explore but I've never done such a thing ? I've always been open and willing to explore with each new lover just not to hear this " you did that with him but not with me " !?!?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, but did you never care about your boyfriends' past behaviors? (Sexually or otherwise?)
Click to expand...


----------



## omgitselaine

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> omgitselaine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, but did you never care about your boyfriends' past behaviors? (Sexually or otherwise?)
> 
> 
> 
> I of course wanted to know a little bit of his past like how many ex's he had or if he'd try anything really crazy like participate in a 20 person college orgy  ??
> 
> It's more the " details " that is asked about which is what I mean that is asked about ......... why !?
Click to expand...


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening omgitselaine
I think there are really three distinct reasons for wanting to know about your partner's past.

1) if it is a new partner, there may be a valid concern about disease. Although people may use this as an excuse, I think it is not very commonly the real reason.

2). Insecurity and jealousy. Mostly insecure guys who want to know if other guys were bigger or better. Maybe insecure women who are worried that previous partners did things that they are willing to do. Bletch. 

3). Just plain naughty curiosity . You want to know what your partner did because the idea of your wife having had kinky lesbian sex, or your husband having sex with groupies when he was a musician is exciting or at least interesting. Maybe you want to know their past to learn what they would like now. To me this is a completely valid reason for asking.


My partner has never told me their sexual past. I've asked gently and they evaded the question, so I don't ask again. Too bad - I wanted to hear about the hot lesbian orgy........




omgitselaine said:


> murphy5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Funny but it seems as if each and ever guy I had been intimate with has asked me or had been curious about my past ??? I figured it'd be better with " what you don't know won't hurt " but they've asked and I've always answered truthfully !!
> 
> I didnt know if they're checking if I'm holding out with anything they'd like to try or explore but I've never done such a thing ? I've always been open and willing to explore with each new lover just not to hear this " you did that with him but not with me " !?!?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
Click to expand...


----------



## Marduk

nuclearnightmare said:


> but you just said (prev posts) that she displays a "fundamental" lack of respect for you....THAT quality in a spouse immediately removes them from the "awesome" category - in my book. sounds like you're minmizing....


Sure, I'm minimizing.

Sure, she has a track record of sometimes disrespecting me.

She's a huge riddle wrapped inside an enigma. I'll never figure this woman out.

And I also want to be mr cool about a lot of things.

Humans are complex.


----------



## treyvion

murphy5 said:


> that can be an effective technique. Sometimes guys get these kinky thoughts....like "I want to hear about my wifes past sex life", or "I want to relive past sex encounters with others".
> 
> But when their souse says "oh yeah, well my first guy had a MUCH bigger **** than yours, and I loved when he pushed it in....I had HUGE orgasms" it is like the **** hit the fan. Now everytime HE has one of those weird thoughts in his head, that image of your previous man's member sneaks in and spoils the whole moment. Aversion therapy :rofl: Like if your cat jumps up on the table and you spritz it with water!


My previous GF was a bj goddess, her vagina was so tight, you couldn't go more than a few strokes with out cumming.

It wasn't that it was tight, but she had control of the internal muscles. So she could squeeze you out, or alternate the contraction of these muscles like playing a trumpet. There was nothing on this earth like it.

Plus she had very perky D size booobs. I've seen boobs but never perky ones that stand up like a pair of atheletic C or B cups.

Most people have a weird smell comparied to her, but after you smell her, most women smell like garbage.

You can be like that.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> Sure, I'm minimizing.
> 
> Sure, she has a track record of sometimes disrespecting me.
> 
> She's a huge riddle wrapped inside an enigma. I'll never figure this woman out.
> 
> And I also want to be mr cool about a lot of things.
> 
> Humans are complex.


She won't LET you be "cool" like that, that's why she does it. She doesn't see you like that or else your feathers would've never been ruffled like this.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> She won't LET you be "cool" like that, that's why she does it. She doesn't see you like that or else your feathers would've never been ruffled like this.


I agree, tell me something I don't know!


----------



## treyvion

ScarletBegonias said:


> Oh yeah,definitely this. Women are way more harsh on other women,from what I've been through w/women anyway.


It's true. Women are really harsh on even their own friends.

I used to think it was weird, but it might be a woman thing to keep them on point and force them to take care of themselves.


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> I agree, tell me something I don't know!


In the same box. So, it's nothing to cry about. Some times parts of our life will be "political", even in our own house space.

So in that situation, which can possibly occur with someone else... 

The answer is to gain 95% of your validation, externally away from her, and have your "own" social circle and activities.

It will shield you, and maintain your "essense" even if she's gone.

I used to cry about it cause I grew up "us against the world" with my women, not really fighting the world, but not fighting each other.

A lot of them don't do it like that now days.


----------



## jaharthur

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening omgitselaine
> I think there are really three distinct reasons for wanting to know about your partner's past.
> 
> 1) if it is a new partner, there may be a valid concern about disease. Although people may use this as an excuse, I think it is not very commonly the real reason.
> 
> 2). Insecurity and jealousy. Mostly insecure guys who want to know if other guys were bigger or better. Maybe insecure women who are worried that previous partners did things that they are willing to do. Bletch.
> 
> 3). Just plain naughty curiosity . You want to know what your partner did because the idea of your wife having had kinky lesbian sex, or your husband having sex with groupies when he was a musician is exciting or at least interesting. Maybe you want to know their past to learn what they would like now. To me this is a completely valid reason for asking.
> 
> 
> My partner has never told me their sexual past. I've asked gently and they evaded the question, so I don't ask again. Too bad - I wanted to hear about the hot lesbian orgy........


4. For someone considering a LTR, a desire to have matching beliefs and desires.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> In the same box. So, it's nothing to cry about. Some times parts of our life will be "political", even in our own house space.
> 
> So in that situation, which can possibly occur with someone else...
> 
> The answer is to gain 95% of your validation, externally away from her, and have your "own" social circle and activities.
> 
> It will shield you, and maintain your "essense" even if she's gone.
> 
> I used to cry about it cause I grew up "us against the world" with my women, not really fighting the world, but not fighting each other.
> 
> A lot of them don't do it like that now days.


Ya, I agree.

It's hard reminding yourself that you NEED to go out with your buddies, go out to the gym, go out and do SOMETHING outside your marriage.

I'm the kind of guy that just wants to be with my family. It's weird, because when I'm single I'm Mr Party Time screw every chick that I can drink my face off get in trouble and not give a ****...

But married?

I just want to be married, simple, quiet, play with my kids, play with my wife, and that's about it.

Validation? I've gotten that from work, the dojo, buddies, and I'm starting to learn to just need it from myself.

But I won't lie. 

This is one of my big demons.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> But married?
> 
> *I just want to be married, simple, quiet, play with my kids, play with my wife, and that's about it.*
> 
> Validation? I've gotten that from work, the dojo, buddies, and I'm starting to learn to just need it from myself.
> 
> But I won't lie.
> 
> This is one of my big demons.


What is wrong with the bolded? I think it is very good.


----------



## treyvion

jld said:


> What is wrong with the bolded? I think it is very good.


Nothing is wrong with it, except that it won't necessarily bring scorching hot lust behind it.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Nothing is wrong with it, except that it won't necessarily bring scorching hot lust behind it.


And she will slowly start to ramp up going out with her girlfriends, the GNOs, all that noise again.

Hell, we're already in that cycle again now.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's so unfair for people in general to assume the sex acts their partner performed with other people had anything to do with loving their past partners more or not loving your current partner enough or being attracted enough to them.
> 
> Some of us were just REALLY f**ked up young people and did what they felt they had to do in order to be loved and be given attention.


If love is a verb, then the actions speak that the current lover is treated with less love then the before partners.

If love is an emotion, the current lover is prone to a roller coaster of activity or inactivity depending on her mood.

I am afraid that though the woman has every Right to do as she pleases, even to forego her promises, the man Will feel deprived of something he longs for. There is no solution in the logic of the situation. Just the question if one is willing to cope with the exerted right of the woman or not.

I personally would not like it at all.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

See_Listen_Love said:


> If love is a verb, then the actions speak that the current lover is treated with less love then the before partners.
> 
> If love is an emotion, the current lover is prone to a roller coaster of activity or inactivity depending on her mood.
> 
> I am afraid that though the woman has every Right to do as she pleases, even to forego her promises, the man Will feel deprived of something he longs for. There is no solution in the logic of the situation. Just the question if one is willing to cope with the exerted right of the woman or not.
> 
> I personally would not like it at all.



I'm sorry I have no idea what you mean here other than the part where you wouldn't like to be with someone who f*cked up in their younger years.


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm sorry I have no idea what you mean here other than the part where you wouldn't like to be with someone who f*cked up in their younger years.


I don't think you're getting it. Maybe it's a man thing.

If my wife said to me "I did X with Y and I hated it" then I wouldn't try to make her do X again.

But if it came out that she did X with Y and liked it, but won't do it with me, I'd feel like it's because she was more sexually attracted to Y than me.

Does that make sense?


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> I don't think you're getting it. Maybe it's a man thing.
> 
> If my wife said to me "I did X with Y and I hated it" then I wouldn't try to make her do X again.
> 
> But if it came out that she did X with Y and liked it, but won't do it with me, I'd feel like it's because she was more sexually attracted to Y than me.
> 
> Does that make sense?


They don't have to be more sexually attracted to them, they could just think your so safe and things that it doesn't light their excitement factor.

What about the one night stands and things like this they did?


----------



## norajane

See_Listen_Love said:


> If love is a verb, then the actions speak that the current lover is treated with less love then the before partners.


Current lover is _assuming _that the actions were done out of love or had anything to do with love. Lots of times people have sex without any love - _especially considering we're talking about partners they didn't marry_ - and the actions speak only of sex, not love at all. 



> If love is an emotion, the current lover is prone to a roller coaster of activity or inactivity depending on her mood.


That applies to everything in a relationship. People do or don't do things depending on their mood. Not sure how this applies to the topic.



> I am afraid that though the woman has every Right to do as she pleases, even to forego her promises, the man Will feel deprived of something he longs for. There is no solution in the logic of the situation. Just the question if one is willing to cope with the exerted right of the woman or not.
> 
> I personally would not like it at all.


What promises are forgone? Who promises to do all the sex acts with their husband that they once did in the past? :scratchhead:


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

norajane said:


> Current lover is _assuming _that the actions were done out of love or had anything to do with love. Lots of times people have sex without any love - _especially considering we're talking about partners they didn't marry_ - and the actions speak only of sex, not love at all.
> 
> 
> 
> That applies to everything in a relationship. People do or don't do things depending on their mood. Not sure how this applies to the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> What promises are forgone? Who promises to do all the sex acts with their husband that they once did in the past? :scratchhead:


But people marry for reasons besides love. If we were talking about how a guy was emotionally connected and emotionally available to his past partners and enjoyed it, but won't be with you, the answers we would be getting from women would be quite different. For men, sex equates to emotional connection in a lot of ways.


----------



## treyvion

norajane said:


> Current lover is _assuming _that the actions were done out of love or had anything to do with love. Lots of times people have sex without any love - _especially considering we're talking about partners they didn't marry_ - and the actions speak only of sex, not love at all.
> 
> 
> 
> That applies to everything in a relationship. People do or don't do things depending on their mood. Not sure how this applies to the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> What promises are forgone? Who promises to do all the sex acts with their husband that they once did in the past? :scratchhead:



She doesn't have to promise it. It's not the thing that makes a husband angry.

It's that he's denied pretty standard acts these days that she still likes to do, it's that she decided she will not do it with him.


----------



## norajane

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> But people marry for reasons besides love. If we were talking about how a guy was emotionally connected and emotionally available to his past partners and enjoyed it, but won't be with you, the answers we would be getting from women would be quite different. For men, sex equates to emotional connection in a lot of ways.


If she married him, then I'd expect she was happy with the level of emotional connection and emotional availability her husband offers to her. I wouldn't marry someone if I didn't feel satisfied with the emotional connection we already had, regardless of whatever kind of connection he had with anyone else in the past. If I were satisfied, then it also matters not what kind of connection he had in the past. 



treyvion said:


> She doesn't have to promise it. It's not the thing that makes a husband angry.
> 
> It's that he's denied pretty standard acts these days that she still likes to do, it's that she decided she will not do it with him.


Again, if he wasn't satisfied with the sex he was having with her, why marry her in the first place? If they weren't doing those "standard acts" and he wasn't satisfied with their sex life, why marry?


----------



## treyvion

norajane said:


> If she married him, then I'd expect she was happy with the level of emotional connection and emotional availability her husband offers to her. I wouldn't marry someone if I didn't feel satisfied with the emotional connection we already had, regardless of whatever kind of connection he had with anyone else in the past. If I were satisfied, then it also matters not what kind of connection he had in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if he wasn't satisfied with the sex he was having with her, why marry her in the first place? If they weren't doing those "standard acts" and he wasn't satisfied with their sex life, why marry?


What if she stopped after married? But I agree with you over all a dead sex or intimacy life could be a reason surely to not be married, or to eventually divorce over.


----------



## bandit.45

treyvion said:


> They don't have to be more sexually attracted to them, they could just think your so safe and things that it doesn't light their excitement factor.
> 
> What about the one night stands and things like this they did?



I agree. 

And I would come back with "Oh so you want danger? Want more excitement? How does a divorce hearing in front of a judge sound? That's pretty exciting."


----------



## treyvion

bandit.45 said:


> I agree.
> 
> And I would come back with "Oh so you want danger? Want more excitement? How does a divorce hearing in front of a judge sound? That's pretty exciting."


"We don't need to be figthing over this simple stuff. We'll be better off single."


----------



## Faithful Wife

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> But people marry for reasons besides love. If we were talking about how a guy was emotionally connected and emotionally available to his past partners and enjoyed it, but won't be with you, the answers we would be getting from women would be quite different. For men, sex equates to emotional connection in a lot of ways.


No, I think it is the same, and I would say to women "we can't compare love for us to love for someone else, we can't say why this meant something and now it doesn't for someone else". 

Most people hold a torch for some or one of their original loves. Even if they could never be "in love" with that person, they still hold a torch. The fun dates and sweet things we do when we're young and in love typically hold value in our hearts and minds forever.

Most men certainly hold this flame or torch and most women do, also.

If we can't get over the fact that our partners have had such loves, held torches, been sexual in ways they may never again, long before we met them....then you'll have to find a virgin I guess?

To me it just makes sense to assume people I've been in relationships with hold torches, sexual and otherwise. Who cares? So do I.

(this post isn't addressing the "wouldn't with you" part)


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> I don't think you're getting it. Maybe it's a man thing.
> 
> If my wife said to me "I did X with Y and I hated it" then I wouldn't try to make her do X again.
> 
> But if it came out that she did X with Y and liked it, but won't do it with me, I'd feel like it's because she was more sexually attracted to Y than me.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Oh ok yes that absolutely makes sense. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> They don't have to be more sexually attracted to them, they could just think your so safe and things that it doesn't light their excitement factor.
> 
> What about the one night stands and things like this they did?


Safety is a factor in attraction, so we're back to the sexual attraction thing. Luckily that's something that is relatively easily resolved.

ONS previously... meh. Having had them and how mediocre they are, it's not something that bothers me.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> I agree.
> 
> And I would come back with "Oh so you want danger? Want more excitement? How does a divorce hearing in front of a judge sound? That's pretty exciting."


Sure.

Or, you know, buy a motorbike, or get buff and get checked out, or something positive that you'll both enjoy.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Most men certainly hold this flame or torch and most women do, also.


I can't speak for most men, but I don't.



> If we can't get over the fact that our partners have had such loves, held torches, been sexual in ways they may never again, long before we met them....then you'll have to find a virgin I guess?


This is a pretty false dichotomy.

I can handle my wife being sexual with other guys before she met me. I didn't want or expect a virgin.

BUT - I do expect that we have a pretty boundary-less sex life as long as it's just the two of us and put that expect out there when we were dating.

And she's been pretty awesome about it. Suggested a few things that she found to be fun and she'd be open including in our repertoire.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Some people literally can't handle the idea of any previous sex or loving behaviors by their partner. Not saying you, marduk.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Some people literally can't handle the idea of any previous sex or loving behaviors by their partner. Not saying you, marduk.


Of course you are correct that SOME people can't, but the majority of the men posting here, expressing their feelings on the matter can in fact handle knowing that they did in the general sense, just not quite so comfortable in the specific. The comments here tend to indicate that feeling it not gender specific.


----------



## Amplexor

I am convinced that my wife's refusal to have anal sex with me is because I must be massively more well endowed than any of her 20+ previous partners.


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> Of course you are correct that SOME people can't, but the majority of the men posting here, expressing their feelings on the matter can in fact handle knowing that they did in the general sense, just not quite so comfortable in the specific. The comments here tend to indicate that feeling it not gender specific.


There'a a massive difference between "I dated Johnny and we had sex" to "I dated Johnny and we did X and Y and Z all over the place" in such graphic detail that it will be ingrained in my synapses in 3-D high def for the rest of my life.

Just like there's a difference between "I tried X before and it was fun... want to give it a try?" and "I let X# of guys do Y with me and I loved it!"

Just like there's also a difference between "listen, just so you know, I don't like doing X. I've had a past experience with it and it's just not my thing" and "I used to let Johnny X all over my Y and liked to do it with him because I was crazy hot for him and it was just an intense time in my life but I'm not going to do that with you."


----------



## Faithful Wife

For both sam and marduk...I feel you both have extreme cases of wives who have pushed this kind of thing in your face and I don't blame you at all for being shocked, hurt and traumatized by what was said (and what has been done, in sam's case).

Your cases are unique in that way, IMO.

All I am trying to do is point out that your general everyday RA (NOT like your two cases) is not something that EVERYONE feels, as is being suggested here by some.

It is not a universal issue. Some of us really don't feel it. That's all I'm trying to say and I'm not saying that if you do feel it you are wrong. Just saying, don't try to paint it like it is expected and normal and everyone feels it. (you two are not doing that, others are)

Sam and marduk....you two are coming from a different place with this and I would have a very hard time with either of your situations...in fact I probably wouldn't have continued the relationship. Whereas, in the absence of hearing details, I'm quite ok with my husband's very colorful past.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Sure.
> 
> Or, you know, buy a motorbike, or get buff and get checked out, or something positive that you'll both enjoy.


Nope. I think once a woman makes her judgment as to her husband's sex rank...it is unchangeable. For good. 

Ditch her and spend the cash on the bike.


----------



## tom67

Amplexor said:


> I am convinced that my wife's refusal to have anal sex with me is because I must be massively more well endowed than any of her 20+ previous partners.


Nice one:smnotworthy::liar:


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> For both sam and marduk...I feel you both have extreme cases of wives who have pushed this kind of thing in your face and I don't blame you at all for being shocked, hurt and traumatized by what was said (and what has been done, in sam's case).
> 
> Your cases are unique in that way, IMO.
> 
> All I am trying to do is point out that your general everyday RA (NOT like your two cases) is not something that EVERYONE feels, as is being suggested here by some.
> 
> It is not a universal issue. Some of us really don't feel it. That's all I'm trying to say and I'm not saying that if you do feel it you are wrong. Just saying, don't try to paint it like it is expected and normal and everyone feels it. (you two are not doing that, others are)
> 
> Sam and marduk....you two are coming from a different place with this and I would have a very hard time with either of your situations...in fact I probably wouldn't have continued the relationship. Whereas, in *the absence of hearing details*, I'm quite ok with my husband's very colorful past.


I think this is the key right here...is it not?

You are pretty familiar with the things I have had to deal with with my wife, and you also know that really none of it is any kind of reflection of me, our relationship, or really how she thinks of me or feels about me. The specifics that I am aware of, in large part, were necessary for me to know...Knowing that she has had 10x the partners I have, and that she was in a long term relationship, with another LTR in between her ex husband and me...that *general* knowledge and the assumptions that go along with it, I am perfectly fine with.


----------



## treyvion

Amplexor said:


> I am convinced that my wife's refusal to have anal sex with me is because I must be massively more well endowed than any of her 20+ previous partners.


She let ALL 20 of them in there and just not you?


----------



## treyvion

bandit.45 said:


> Nope. I think once a woman makes her judgment as to her husband's sex rank...it is unchangeable. For good.
> 
> Ditch her and spend the cash on the bike.


Even if others believe you have a higher sex-rank, she will be laughing her ass off anytime she can see you looking attractive to anyone else. Literally laugh you down if you let her.


----------



## Amplexor

treyvion said:


> She let ALL 20 of them in there and just not you?












"It's a joke, son! A joke!


----------



## bandit.45

treyvion said:


> Even if others believe you have a higher sex-rank, she will be laughing her ass off anytime she can see you looking attractive to anyone else. Literally laugh you down if you let her.


Again I say....it's a a control game. Women use sex to control men, especially in marriage. If a woman wants to wear the pants in the marriage, the quickest road to dominance is to mentally and emotionally castrate her husband. One easy way to do that is to not leather husband do things with her sexually that she did with past men.


----------



## treyvion

bandit.45 said:


> Again I say....it's a a control game. Women use sex to control men, especially in marriage. If a woman wants to wear the pants in the marriage, the quickest road to dominance is to mentally and emotionally castrate her husband. One easy way to do that is to not leather husband do things with her sexually that she did with past men.


Why the hell get a commitment from a man just to castrate him?

I know it's up to a man to not allow to happen. Smh.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> Nope. I think once a woman makes her judgment as to her husband's sex rank...it is unchangeable. For good.
> 
> Ditch her and spend the cash on the bike.


I thought the same too.

In fact, I was a bit in the dumps about it.

And then her hot young friend propositioned me in front of her and instantly the game changed.


----------



## Want2babettrme

marduk said:


> Oh, man, I've done this like 100 times.
> 
> "What's the big deal? It's my past and has nothing to do with you, don't be insecure!"
> 
> "I should be able to talk to my best friend about anything, I guess you're not my best friend."
> 
> "I'm just to real and honest and this is you're problem, not mine."



I realize that this post is from a whopping three days ago and that the discussion likely morphed way beyond this, but I have to reply for my own sanity. 

Marduk, I have a similar problem with my STBXW regarding lack of respect. She frequently (i.e. twenty + times a day) says very critical, pejorative or downright insulting things about me and my family of origin. I've asked her not to do this, that I've heard it before from her and further comments just hurt our relationship. Wife does it so much that marriage therapist actually told wife to stop. Wife agreed, then after therapy session changed her tune. My wife says she "is keeping it real." 

I've come to realize that this is part of a larger attitude of superiority on my wife's part and general lack of respect for everyone else. With me it's exaggerated. 

Your wife is treating you with great disrespect. You've told her it bothers you. She is intentionally baiting you then cutting you down when you react to her graphic stories. She is emasculating you. Might have as well said "If you were a real man you could take it."

Her attitude of disrespect extend to other people also. She's gotten negative feedback from multiple sources, but it's _their problem._ Your wife has a problem and could benefit from self analysis and therapy as to why she does this and how to change this disrespectful attitude and behavior. A "high and mighty" attitude sometimes is compensating for deep feelings of inferiority.

Given her attitudes as shown by her behavior, she does not think or want to admit anything's wrong. Reality may have to slap her in the face hard to get her to open her eyes.


----------



## Want2babettrme

Should have read the rest of the thread before I posted. Sounds like you may have gotten through to her a little with the sex tape analogy. Her actions took it even further. It's equivalent to you showing her a sex tape from you past romps with hotties, her telling you she doesn't want to see it again, then you forcing her to see it again, time after time.


----------



## lifeistooshort

My hb had sex in cars when he was younger and liked it. He has no real desire to do it now because he's older and it's uncomfortable. Apparently I should be very insulted by this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> My hb had sex in cars when he was younger and liked it. He has no real desire to do it now because he's older and it's uncomfortable. Apparently I should be very insulted by this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it was a life long sexual fantasy to do this and he just flat out refused why wouldn't you be


----------



## Thor

Want2babettrme said:


> Your wife is treating you with great disrespect. You've told her it bothers you. She is intentionally baiting you then cutting you down when you react to her graphic stories. She is emasculating you. Might have as well said "If you were a real man you could take it."
> 
> Her attitude of disrespect extend to other people also. She's gotten negative feedback from multiple sources, but it's _their problem._ Your wife has a problem and could benefit from self analysis and therapy as to why she does this and how to change this disrespectful attitude and behavior. A "high and mighty" attitude sometimes is compensating for deep feelings of inferiority.


:iagree:

Excellent analysis.


----------



## Thor

lifeistooshort said:


> My hb had sex in cars when he was younger and liked it. He has no real desire to do it now because he's older and it's uncomfortable. Apparently I should be very insulted by this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He offered a seemingly reasonable excuse for not doing it now. It is uncomfortable due to his age. If you think he is giving an honest reason, then there is no reason to be insulted.

Now if he said he loved having sex in a car with Jill and with Suzy, and he thinks it would still be fun, but he doesn't want to do it with you.... then you should be insulted.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> My hb had sex in cars when he was younger and liked it. He has no real desire to do it now because he's older and it's uncomfortable. Apparently I should be very insulted by this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't have to be insulted by him not doing something with you that you don't want to do.

Plus, I think _in general,_ men's and women's responses to this may be different.


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> Now if he said he loved having sex in a car with Jill and with Suzy, and he thinks it would still be fun, but he doesn't want to do it with you.... then you should be insulted.


I, for one, would love to have sex in a car with Jill and Suzy.

Call me crazy.


----------



## treyvion

Wolf1974 said:


> If it was a life long sexual fantasy to do this and he just flat out refused why wouldn't you be


Yep, you all could just do it in a SUV.


----------



## Marduk

Want2babettrme said:


> I realize that this post is from a whopping three days ago and that the discussion likely morphed way beyond this, but I have to reply for my own sanity.
> 
> Marduk, I have a similar problem with my STBXW regarding lack of respect. She frequently (i.e. twenty + times a day) says very critical, pejorative or downright insulting things about me and my family of origin. I've asked her not to do this, that I've heard it before from her and further comments just hurt our relationship. Wife does it so much that marriage therapist actually told wife to stop. Wife agreed, then after therapy session changed her tune. My wife says she "is keeping it real."
> 
> I've come to realize that this is part of a larger attitude of superiority on my wife's part and general lack of respect for everyone else. With me it's exaggerated.
> 
> Your wife is treating you with great disrespect. You've told her it bothers you. She is intentionally baiting you then cutting you down when you react to her graphic stories. She is emasculating you. Might have as well said "If you were a real man you could take it."
> 
> Her attitude of disrespect extend to other people also. She's gotten negative feedback from multiple sources, but it's _their problem._ Your wife has a problem and could benefit from self analysis and therapy as to why she does this and how to change this disrespectful attitude and behavior. A "high and mighty" attitude sometimes is compensating for deep feelings of inferiority.
> 
> Given her attitudes as shown by her behavior, she does not think or want to admit anything's wrong. Reality may have to slap her in the face hard to get her to open her eyes.


Sounds like an attraction/respect thing.

She thinks she's better than you.

If she were to rate you and herself on a scale of 1-10 who would be the better?

And why?

Resolve that, and you may resolve _this_.

My wife is disrespectful when she talks about her past sex life 1-2 times a year. And is disrespectful when she's angry (which happens way too much).

What seems to keep her respectful is knowing that other women would gladly take her place. Other hotter, younger women. And that I would not just survive, but thrive without her if it came to that.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's our dynamic.


----------



## Marduk

Want2babettrme said:


> Your wife is treating you with great disrespect. You've told her it bothers you. She is intentionally baiting you then cutting you down when you react to her graphic stories. She is emasculating you. Might have as well said "If you were a real man you could take it."


Yup.

The weird thing is, she's pretty respectful unless she's mad or pulling this stunt.

To the point about bragging about me to her girlfriends, that kind of thing.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> If it was a life long sexual fantasy to do this and he just flat out refused why wouldn't you be


Good thing it's not -
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> You don't have to be insulted by him not doing something with you that you don't want to do.
> 
> Plus, I think _in general,_ men's and women's responses to this may be different.



I was kidding, but I guess nobody's in the mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

marduk said:


> Sounds like an attraction/respect thing.
> 
> She thinks she's better than you.
> 
> If she were to rate you and herself on a scale of 1-10 who would be the better?
> 
> And why?
> 
> Resolve that, and you may resolve _this_.
> 
> My wife is disrespectful when she talks about her past sex life 1-2 times a year. And is disrespectful when she's angry (which happens way too much).
> 
> What seems to keep her respectful is knowing that other women would gladly take her place. Other hotter, younger women. And that I would not just survive, but thrive without her if it came to that.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's our dynamic.


You tell your wife this? If it is so easy I am surprised you can hold yourself back. Why are you still married? Is it money? I'm sure that won't matter so much with the ego boost you will get when you over run with hot young woman 2 X 2. 

This is the most contemptible and dismissive thing you can say to another human being. You don't love your wife and you don't respect woman. No wonder your wife does not respect you. 

If your wife were here, I'd tell her to stop having sex with you now and call in her chips. See a D lawyer ASAP and invite you to get out there and get those hot young women that you think have nothing to do but service you. Make sure that your belief come form RL experience and not fictional sex video. 

Any woman who hears this sh!t, should react the way I would, with self respect and resolution. I am irreplaceable now and I will remain so when I am very old. I love my husband but if he ever said anything like this to me, that would be it for me. 

I cannot be in a relationship with someone who does not respect me and I cannot respect. I know I am not disposable and if my partner thinks I am then he is worthless to me. That is my line in the sand and should be for every woman.


----------



## Marduk

Catherine602 said:


> You tell your wife this? If it is so easy I am surprised you can hold yourself back. Why are you still married? Is it money? I'm sure that won't matter so much with the ego boost you will get when you over run with hot young woman 2 X 2.
> 
> This is the most contemptible and dismissive thing you can say to another human being. You don't love your wife and you don't respect woman. No wonder your wife does not respect you.
> 
> If your wife were here, I'd tell her to stop having sex with you now and call in her chips. See a D lawyer ASAP and invite you to get out there and get those hot young women that you think have nothing to do but service you. Make sure that your belief come form RL experience and not fictional sex video.
> 
> Any woman who hears this sh!t, should react the way I would, with self respect and resolution. I am irreplaceable now and I will remain so when I am very old. I love my husband but if he ever said anything like this to me, that would be it for me.
> 
> I cannot be in a relationship with someone who does not respect me and I cannot respect. I know I am not disposable and if my partner thinks I am then he is worthless to me. That is my line in the sand and should be for every woman.


I think you misunderstand me. This was a side effect of what I was trying to achieve, and not the intent at all.

We went through a pretty big dark patch a few years ago. She was disinterested in me, in our marriage. Nothing I could do helped.

So I started focusing on improving myself. She noticed, but still was pretty "meh" about the whole thing.

Until I started to inadvertently attract other women's attention. Then everything changed.

Too much, in fact. I'm not interested in other women. I've never cheated and I'd like to believe I never will. Even when openly propositioned.

However, I have noticed, consciously or not, that my marriage improves when my wife notices that other women find me attractive. I have never once told my wife anything like this. Just like she hasn't, and I know damn well that other guys would be happy to take my place, too. But she sees it for herself, just like I do.

OK, I used to find it an ego boost. Who wouldn't, when they are aging and the love of their life is more interested in being away and out with their friends than being with you?

But I got past it. Now it's a nuisance. But I realize the impact.

I don't want it to be the way it is. But it is. My wife has even plainly said that she finds me more attractive when other women do.

This is what is known as preselection.

Trust me. We're all replaceable. In some sense of the term. Everyone can move on and find someone different, someone perhaps better suited.

I'm trying like hell to make myself the best I can be so I don't get replaced. And at the same time find some kind of emotional intimacy to go along with that.


----------



## bandit.45

Catherine, next to me there probably isn't any one on TAM who shoots their mouth off the way you do.


----------



## lifeistooshort

The more I think about this the more I think I can understand why guys would find this upsetting. I don't think it's necessarily meant like it's received, but that doesn't take away the hurt.
People do a lot of things when they're younger that they enjoy, but a lot of things change the older you get. That doesn't mean your hb doesn't do it for you, but I think I can see why it might be received that way. I liked staying out all night with boyfriends 20 years ago but now i'm tired by 10. Does that mean hubby doesn't excite me? No! It means i'm 20 years older (and I run a lot so i'm tired a lot).

There's no easy answer to this; what most guys want is for their wife to enthusiastically participate in whatever it is he wants, but that might be a lot to ask. A wife could go along with it, but she isn't necessarily going to like it and then the guy is insulted she's not into it. Who gets off when it's clear your partner doesn't want to be there? That goes for both genders. And honestly watching porn where all women are enthusiastic about everything doesn't help; that's not a rail against porn so let's not go there, it's just an observation about porn. So what's the answer? I can honestly say I don't know, but I would hope any guy would be willing to have done to him what he wants to do to his wife at least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Catherine, next to me there probably isn't any one on TAM who shoots their mouth off the way you do.


You do shoot your mouth off, but I appreciate it. Besides, so do I; must be an AZ thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> You do shoot your mouth off, but I appreciate it. Besides, so do I; must be an AZ thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We like to shoot our mouths, our guns and our wads. Not necessarily in that order.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> We like to shoot our mouths, our guns and our wads. Not necessarily in that order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ain't that the truth.

:rofl:


----------



## Catherine602

bandit.45 said:


> Catherine, next to me there probably isn't any one on TAM who shoots their mouth off the way you do.


:rofl::lol::rofl:

Sorry, can't help it Bannedit .... I mean Bandit


----------



## Catherine602

I think people are irreplaceable. Everyone meets more than one person they can love. If they formed a new relationship, it would be unique to their connection. I don't think the former lover is replaced though. The history, personality, interaction and attraction is different from one person to another. That is impossible to duplicate.

That is central to the discussion. If the dynamic is unique then the sex is also. Besides factors that have nothing to do with the people involved. Taste change, maturity happens, experiments go bad. 

That's why it's best not to give details as to acts when discussing hx if you don't want to be locked repeating things that have become undesirable. If it's important to a potential partner, it may be best for both to break up.


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> Not to derail the thread any more than it already has but.....
> 
> Marduk, isn't preselection just a stop-gap measure? At some point, age is going to catch up with you and you'll start losing your ability to attract other women. I'm not asking you this because I want to argue the point. I'm genuinely curious.


Sure it is a stop-gap.

Tell me something better and if I believe it, I'll try it.


----------



## Thundarr

Lila said:


> Not to derail the thread any more than it already has but.....
> 
> Marduk, isn't preselection just a stop-gap measure? At some point, age is going to catch up with you and you'll start losing your ability to attract other women. I'm not asking you this because I want to argue the point. I'm genuinely curious.





marduk said:


> Sure it is a stop-gap.
> 
> Tell me something better and if I believe it, I'll try it.


I don't think it's preselection. Other women showing interest in you is plain old competition that ultimately plays on her insecurities and lack of trust. To be fair she has reason to feel insecure about how you see her. She's been pretty nasty at times by rubbing your nose in things she knew you wanted no part of.


----------



## treyvion

Lila said:


> Not to derail the thread any more than it already has but.....
> 
> Marduk, isn't preselection just a stop-gap measure? At some point, age is going to catch up with you and you'll start losing your ability to attract other women. I'm not asking you this because I want to argue the point. I'm genuinely curious.


You can attract women around your age bracket for a very long time.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm sorry I have no idea what you mean here other than the part where you wouldn't like to be with someone who f*cked up in their younger years.


I think that the reducing to f*ck* or not is needless reducing the views on the thought process of OP and partner.

I note there are two equal valid streams of thought: 

1. The freedom of the woman to choose her expression of sexuality in the relation. No matter what her before intentions or promises in the relation. I acknowledge these rights.

2. The caused emotions in OP (and others in similar situations) by the knowledge of prior behavior and the difference he is treated with, and his longing for a great sex life that involves these before acts of her. These are facts, it is happening to him, because of all kinds of deep unconscious thought processes. I acknowledge the fact he feels like this.

My conclusion is that you cannot equal these in some form of logic, where you decide what the balanced outcome has to be, like in a formula. They both exist, and are valid. 

But not reconcilable.

It has nothing to do with what exactly has happened and why.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

norajane said:


> Current lover is _assuming _that the actions were done out of love or had anything to do with love. Lots of times people have sex without any love - _especially considering we're talking about partners they didn't marry_ - and the actions speak only of sex, not love at all.


The point is, he is assuming nothing. It is not a rational though process that gives him these feelings.

And sex without love given to others but not him, will even hurt more than when out of love!

It is very illustrative that you would think it would matter less if not out of love. Maybe exactly the reason of difference between the female and male view on this.





> What promises are forgone? Who promises to do all the sex acts with their husband that they once did in the past? :scratchhead:


The promises that were integral part of the entering in a love relation. Who does make an explicit contract when getting in love, a relation or married? The loving, and the making love part of the relation are implicit part of the 'contract', the promise to live and love each other.

What strikes me is that I as a men am much more into the spiritual part of the relation (as underlying the sexual part) where some females talk about f*ck*ng as if it is fastfood, you just consume it, and throw away the remnant. 'Ready'.

Our souls do not work that way.


----------



## Starstarfish

> The promises that were integral part of the entering in a love relation.


How many people honestly discuss a check list of particular sex acts that both people expect and the frequency before forming a relationship? A non-verbal assumed promise of twice weekly pegging wasn't in your relationship clause was it? If not, why not? What acts are included and which aren't on this assumed list?



> Our souls do not work that way.


Sorry, all the "go out and get strange" as a revenge quest for an impending D suggesting by other men here on TAM directly contradicts this idea that men's souls somehow aren't set up for sexual encounters without a deep loving, emotional bond.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

@starfish

The said is relating to a love/ marriage relation. There will be plenty of other situations, but this is about rights and feelings about sex in a love relation.


----------



## Starstarfish

A man being married doesn't suddenly and automatically transform him into having a "spiritual" connection to sex. How each person approaches and thinks about sex is personal.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

True.


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> How many people honestly discuss a check list of particular sex acts that both people expect and the frequency before forming a relationship? A non-verbal assumed promise of twice weekly pegging wasn't in your relationship clause was it? If not, why not? What acts are included and which aren't on this assumed list?


We did. Is that odd?

Although I had been married before and sex was an issue, and one I didn't want to repeat.


----------



## treyvion

See_Listen_Love said:


> I think that the reducing to f*ck* or not is needless reducing the views on the thought process of OP and partner.
> 
> I note there are two equal valid streams of thought:
> 
> 1. The freedom of the woman to choose her expression of sexuality in the relation. No matter what her before intentions or promises in the relation. I acknowledge these rights.
> 
> 2. The caused emotions in OP (and others in similar situations) by the knowledge of prior behavior and the difference he is treated with, and his longing for a great sex life that involves these before acts of her. These are facts, it is happening to him, because of all kinds of deep unconscious thought processes. I acknowledge the fact he feels like this.
> 
> My conclusion is that you cannot equal these in some form of logic, where you decide what the balanced outcome has to be, like in a formula. They both exist, and are valid.
> 
> But not reconcilable.
> 
> It has nothing to do with what exactly has happened and why.


its a huge degredation to suffer. The one being marginalized pays everytimes he or she listens to the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

treyvion said:


> its a huge degredation to suffer. The one being marginalized pays everytimes he or she listens to the other.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The one who is having the artificial barriers reinforces a viewpoint that the one being marginalized is "less than" the others they participated in the activity with.

It is kept in place through their actions, tone of voice, etc. You are cheated out of more than the sex when a spouse or long term partner categorizes you as such. That is if you listen to them.

If you have other relationships and this one is a low priority to you, you don't have to listen to it at all. You can laugh at it.


----------



## waylan

This thread is the perfect example of how people ignore context and rush to black and white stances.

If my wife had sex with boyfriends in cars and doesn't want to anymore because it is uncomfortable and risky for an adult to be caught - that is a very valid reason and I wouldn't be upset that I wasn't getting "car sex".

If my wife mentioned how she performed oral sex for past boyfriends and swallowed but that is off the table for me because she only performed for them due to insecurity and the fear of losing the boyfriend. I would feel that she placed a higher value on the other man.

The why is the important piece here........


----------



## NobodySpecial

I have given this thread a bit of thought. When we were first married, there WERE things that I had done with other bfs that I did not do with him. I had done them because I had been pressure, cajoled and coerced. Made to feel less if I was not the rock star in bed. None of those guys cared about how *I* felt about it. It was all about them and getting their rocks off with their hotty gf. What a wonder I am not with any of them now. Early in our marriage, we had a conversation about BJs. I did it, but not often and not cheerfully. He told me he loved them and would love them more often. I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified. He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!

When I said that if I would not do with a man, I guess that is how I feel NOW. 20+ years later. In the intervening period, MY happiness in the bedroom and out was his priority. He looked into the future, the rest of his life with me, with no way to guarantee that he was going to get a sexual super freak. And he chose ME. That was an investment in my willingness to TRY. WANT to please him. And learn how to trust him.


----------



## waylan

Giving a BJ is demeaning? Women that give head to their men are servicing them like a prostitute? :scratchhead:? Now I know why prostitutes continue to flourish.



NobodySpecial said:


> I have given this thread a bit of thought. When we were first married, there WERE things that I had done with other bfs that I did not do with him. I had done them because I had been pressure, cajoled and coerced. Made to feel less if I was not the rock star in bed. None of those guys cared about how *I* felt about it. It was all about them and getting their rocks off with their hotty gf. What a wonder I am not with any of them now. Early in our marriage, we had a conversation about BJs. I did it, but not often and not cheerfully. He told me he loved them and would love them more often. I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified. He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!
> 
> When I said that if I would not do with a man, I guess that is how I feel NOW. 20+ years later. In the intervening period, MY happiness in the bedroom and out was his priority. He looked into the future, the rest of his life with me, with no way to guarantee that he was going to get a sexual super freak. And he chose ME. That was an investment in my willingness to TRY. WANT to please him. And learn how to trust him.


----------



## NobodySpecial

waylan said:


> Giving a BJ is demeaning? Women that give head to their men are servicing them like a prostitute? :scratchhead:? Now I know why prostitutes continue to flourish.


Go back and read it again.


----------



## waylan

NobodySpecial said:


> Go back and read it again.


OK:

_He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!_

I read: giving him a BJ is demeaning to you and would be similar to servicing him like a prostitute? What did I miss?


----------



## NobodySpecial

waylan said:


> OK:
> 
> _He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!_
> 
> I read: giving him a BJ is demeaning to you and would be similar to servicing him like a prostitute? What did I miss?


I would suggest you read the entire post.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ For the record, this is a man who now never wants for anything. Because he is the man that lights my fire in every way. There is NOTHING off the table. How do you suppose that was achieved?


----------



## jaharthur

waylan said:


> OK:
> 
> _He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!_
> 
> I read: giving him a BJ is demeaning to you and would be similar to servicing him like a prostitute? What did I miss?


C'mon, that's sooooo out of context. How could you miss the preceding three sentences: " I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified."


----------



## waylan

jaharthur said:


> C'mon, that's sooooo out of context. How could you miss the preceding three sentences: " I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified."


I didn't miss those but they weren't relevant to her husband's desire for oral sex. Was the husband asking to grab her hair and force his you know what down her throat whenever he wanted? Or did her husband just wanted a normal BJ?

If a women is raped - Does that make every man that subsequently has sex with her a rapist?


----------



## Catherine602

NobodySpecial said:


> I have given this thread a bit of thought. When we were first married, there WERE things that I had done with other bfs that I did not do with him. I had done them because I had been pressure, cajoled and coerced. Made to feel less if I was not the rock star in bed. None of those guys cared about how *I* felt about it. It was all about them and getting their rocks off with their hotty gf. What a wonder I am not with any of them now. Early in our marriage, we had a conversation about BJs. I did it, but not often and not cheerfully. He told me he loved them and would love them more often. I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified. He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!
> 
> When I said that if I would not do with a man, I guess that is how I feel NOW. 20+ years later. In the intervening period, MY happiness in the bedroom and out was his priority. He looked into the future, the rest of his life with me, with no way to guarantee that he was going to get a sexual super freak. And he chose ME. That was an investment in my willingness to TRY. WANT to please him. And learn how to trust him.


I could have written this with a few changes in the history. I was used by a man when I was a teen. I swore that no man would ever use me ever again in my life. My husband took a chance with me when we married. He knew about my bad experience and my feelings. Now I can see that my husband took the long view too. 

I learned to trust him and feel safe because he did not insist that I do things I didn't feel comfortable with, just to show him love. He pushed me to recover my own sexual freedom not for him but for us. It worked out very well. Not many things are off the table for us. It is trust - you can't trust a person who expects to be shown love by sexual sacrifice. 

You can trust and even respect a person who pushes you to not sacrifice your sexuality for past bad experiences. It's like the difference between an offer too attractive to refuse and a shove.


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## NobodySpecial

waylan said:


> I didn't miss those but they weren't relevant to her husband's desire for oral sex. Was the husband asking to grab her hair and force his you know what down her throat whenever he wanted? Or did her husband just wanted a normal BJ?
> 
> If a women is raped - Does that make every man that subsequently has sex with her a rapist?


Are you a human being? Have you ever heard of association? Or maybe even feelings?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Catherine602 said:


> I learned to trust him and feel safe because he did not insist that I do things I didn't feel comfortable with, just to show him love. He pushed me to recover my own sexual freedom not for him but for us.


The only thing I would change would be "encouraged" rather than "pushed". Worked out well for us too.


----------



## waylan

Catherine602 said:


> I could have written this with a few changes in the history. I was used by a man when I was a teen. I swore that no man would ever use me ever again in my life. My husband took a chance with me when we married. He knew about my bad experience and my feelings. Now I can see that my husband took the long view too.
> 
> I learned to trust him and feel safe because he did not insist that I do things I didn't feel comfortable with, just to show him love. He pushed me to recover my own sexual freedom not for him but for us. It worked out very well. Not many things are off the table for us. It is trust - you can't trust a person who expects to be shown love by sexual sacrifice.
> 
> You can trust and even respect a person who pushes you to not sacrifice your sexuality for past bad experiences. It's like the difference between an offer too attractive to refuse and a shove.


I can understand this to a certain degree. However - When I said my marriage vows it meant that I would devote the rest of my life to my wife - and I wouldn't do that to anyone that I didn't have full trust in yet. Did you marry your husband before you had complete trust in him?

Also I'm confused on how he could push you toward sexual freedom for the good of both of you but not insist that you do things you are uncomfortable with? Isn't this contradictory?

I know I'm not making any friends here by probing these issues but felt it was a unique chance to gain some understanding into the female psyche. I'm also somewhat naive - considering that I married my high school sweatheart so we don't have much sexual past between us.


----------



## waylan

NobodySpecial said:


> Are you a human being? Have you ever heard of association? Or maybe even feelings?


Am I human? yes. Have I heard of association? yes. Do I have feelings? yes.

There is just so much that didn't add up in your post for me. Were these boyfriends physically abusive to you? Did they beat the crap out of you? Or did they grab your head and you just kinda went along with it? (Cause one hard bite could have ended that....)

If your past boyfriend(s) forced you to kiss them - Would that make the act of kissing your husband demeaning as well? Where is the line drawn? And by demeaning - we mean an act that humiliates you - right?

I really don't understand the logic - Obviously your husband was *different* then these other guys. Shouldn't your experiences with him be *different* as well?


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## Thundarr

waylan said:


> This thread is the perfect example of how people ignore context and rush to black and white stances.
> 
> If my wife had sex with boyfriends in cars and doesn't want to anymore because it is uncomfortable and risky for an adult to be caught - that is a very valid reason and I wouldn't be upset that I wasn't getting "car sex".
> 
> If my wife mentioned how she performed oral sex for past boyfriends and swallowed but that is off the table for me because she only performed for them due to insecurity and the fear of losing the boyfriend. I would feel that she placed a higher value on the other man.
> 
> The why is the important piece here........


Political, religious, and gender threads are doomed to this fate.


----------



## Thundarr

NobodySpecial and Catherine602. There's a common theme to your stories that I think is important. You were both honest with your husbands. I think most of the opposing comments in this thread have a theme where the woman was not honest. Note that I said most rather than all .

Just my rambling thought.


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## Catherine602

waylan said:


> I can understand this to a certain degree. However - When I said my marriage vows it meant that I would devote the rest of my life to my wife - and I wouldn't do that to anyone that I didn't have full trust in yet. Did you marry your husband before you had complete trust in him?
> 
> Also I'm confused on how he could push you toward sexual freedom for the good of both of you but not insist that you do things you are uncomfortable with? Isn't this contradictory?
> 
> I know I'm not making any friends here by probing these issues but felt it was a unique chance to gain some understanding into the female psyche. I'm also somewhat naive - considering that I married my high school sweatheart so we don't have much sexual past between us.


I don't know why you think you are not making friends. Friendships develop. You are doing exactly what TAM is all about. I would never in my life had so many people to kick around my questions if I had not joined this site. You are safe to say what you want and get a nice argument back. What could be better than that!

No I did not trust my husband fully before marriage. If you asked me then if I trusted him, I would have said yes because I did not know that I did not trust him. I distrusted men not him. He was different because I loved him and I knew he loved me. 

He did not make me feel broken and evil. He did not tell me it was my duty to do what he wanted to prove I loved him, nor did he read me Scripture or the marital vows or the D laws. That would not have worked with me.

I had to get something out of sex too. It gave me something to look forward to and I associated sex with fun and pleasure with my husband. I had to learn the basics. How to orgasm, relax, get out of my head, have fun. 

I trusted him and let my guard down and went on new adventures with him. I can tell you now how it happened but we didn't plan it and I don't really know why it worked the way it did. 

There might be something else - we have always been interested in learning new things together. I am learning to ride a motorcycle finally! I want to join him on rides not just a passenger. I think that has something to do with what goes on intimately.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Thundarr said:


> NobodySpecial and Catherine602. There's a common theme to your stories that I think is important. You were both honest with your husbands. I think most of the opposing comments in this thread have a theme where the woman was not honest. Note that I said most rather than all .
> 
> Just my rambling thought.


My rambling thought is the mistakes are everywhere. Misunderstandings are everywhere. People who love their people figure it out. People who don't talk about vows and legality clauses and snip small bits of reality won't. Ever. And will never be happy. Despite our best effort to give them a glimpse into something different.


----------



## Catherine602

Thundarr said:


> NobodySpecial and Catherine602. There's a common theme to your stories that I think is important. You were both honest with your husbands. I think most of the opposing comments in this thread have a theme where the woman was not honest. Note that I said most rather than all .
> 
> Just my rambling thought.


I think you are right Thundarr. That's one thing that really bothers me - being dishonest to get a relationship. That is evil on a personal level. Every one has the right to chose and decide who they want to parent their children, live in their house, sleep in their bed. No matter what the trauma's in a person life has been, there is someone for everyone. I don't think you need to fake it. 

As far as me being honest. I wish I could say that I was so noble. It happens that my husband and I grew up in the same neighborhood. We had parallel lives, he was in the boys group and I with the girls. I was hospitalized in my early teens because of a bad experience and he started to visit me. He said it was because he didn't see me around but I really don't know why he came to visit me, neither does he. Of course I told him how I felt. We remained friends and it grew to love years latter.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

See_Listen_Love said:


> The promises that were integral part of the entering in a love relation. Who does make an explicit contract when getting in love, a relation or married? The loving, and the making love part of the relation are implicit part of the 'contract', the promise to live and love each other.


So in entering into a love relation, I am expected to acquiesce to my lover's every demand when it comes to love making, regardless of my personal feelings and/or objections? Am I essentially giving up my own right to my own body and my own pleasure, as well as my own freedom of thought?? FVCK THAT. 

My first husband had a hangup about wanting anal sex. I was NOT interested, the idea of it was an absolute turn off for me. Turns out that he expected that marrying me was going to magically make me want to have anal. He didnt give a damn about how I felt about it, he felt that he was entitled to it since I was now his wife. And no, this was not something I had ever done with anyone else, I always held the same stance. The more he came at me about it, and insulted me about it, expected me to give in about it, the more angry and resentful I became about it. He never caught on to that. It was a sure fire way to make sure I was never willing to try it. 

Sorry, but if your partner is opposed to doing something sexual, that needs to be respected, WHETHER THEY HAVE DONE IT PREVIOUSLY OR NOT. All of us have things that we have done in our lives that we thought were cool or fun or sexy at the time we did them, but then in later years, we look back and think, OMG...I cant believe I did that, that makes me feel like crap/icky/repulsed/embarrassed/ashamed. And if your partner feels like this about a certain sex act, just respect their feelings about it. Expect the same respect from them. Maybe, just MAYBE, if they are not harassed about it or made to feel like sh!t because they arent giving you something you want (no you are not entitled to it!)...maybe one day they will feel safe enough to give it a try with you.


----------



## waylan

You are going to love riding a motorcycle. It takes your full attention and your senses are heightened which as a by product lets the other stresses just melt away. 



Catherine602 said:


> I don't know why you think you are not making friends. Friendships develop. You are doing exactly what TAM is all about. I would never in my life had so many people to kick around my questions if I had not joined this site. You are safe to say what you want and get a nice argument back. What could be better than that!
> 
> No I did not trust my husband fully before marriage. If you asked me then if I trusted him, I would have said yes because I did not know that I did not trust him. I distrusted men not him. He was different because I loved him and I knew he loved me.
> 
> He did not make me feel broken and evil. He did not tell me it was my duty to do what he wanted to prove I loved him, nor did he read me Scripture or the marital vows or the D laws. That would not have worked with me.
> 
> I had to get something out of sex too. It gave me something to look forward to and I associated sex with fun and pleasure with my husband. I had to learn the basics. How to orgasm, relax, get out of my head, have fun.
> 
> I trusted him and let my guard down and went on new adventures with him. I can tell you now how it happened but we didn't plan it and I don't really know why it worked the way it did.
> 
> There might be something else - we have always been interested in learning new things together. I am learning to ride a motorcycle finally! I want to join him on rides not just a passenger. I think that has something to do with what goes on intimately.


----------



## waylan

Again - there needs to be a balance. Should a wife be obligated to perform anal sex for husband - of course not. Does a wife have the right to withhold sex completely from her husband? I don't think so. In many states you can annul your marriage for non-consummation - Why is that? Because intimacy and sex are critical pieces in a marriage. Otherwise you are just room-mates.



3Xnocharm said:


> So in entering into a love relation, I am expected to acquiesce to my lover's every demand when it comes to love making, regardless of my personal feelings and/or objections? Am I essentially giving up my own right to my own body and my own pleasure, as well as my own freedom of thought?? FVCK THAT.
> 
> My first husband had a hangup about wanting anal sex. I was NOT interested, the idea of it was an absolute turn off for me. Turns out that he expected that marrying me was going to magically make me want to have anal. He didnt give a damn about how I felt about it, he felt that he was entitled to it since I was now his wife. And no, this was not something I had ever done with anyone else, I always held the same stance. The more he came at me about it, and insulted me about it, expected me to give in about it, the more angry and resentful I became about it. He never caught on to that. It was a sure fire way to make sure I was never willing to try it.
> 
> Sorry, but if your partner is opposed to doing something sexual, that needs to be respected, WHETHER THEY HAVE DONE IT PREVIOUSLY OR NOT. All of us have things that we have done in our lives that we thought were cool or fun or sexy at the time we did them, but then in later years, we look back and think, OMG...I cant believe I did that, that makes me feel like crap/icky/repulsed/embarrassed/ashamed. And if your partner feels like this about a certain sex act, just respect their feelings about it. Expect the same respect from them. Maybe, just MAYBE, if they are not harassed about it or made to feel like sh!t because they arent giving you something you want (no you are not entitled to it!)...maybe one day they will feel safe enough to give it a try with you.


----------



## samyeagar

Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...

On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...

Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...


----------



## NobodySpecial

waylan said:


> Again - there needs to be a balance. Should a wife be obligated to perform anal sex for husband - of course not. Does a wife have the right to withhold sex completely from her husband? I don't think so. In many states you can annul your marriage for non-consummation - Why is that? Because intimacy and sex are critical pieces in a marriage. Otherwise you are just room-mates.


The key difference is that my husband never once thought in terms of obligation. It was beautiful. He helped create something beautiful.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...
> 
> On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...
> 
> Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...


No, not at all. I did things that I did not want to do because I was young and stupid. It had nothing to do with valuing those relationships. Clearly. Since I ended them as I grew up and grew a spine.


----------



## jaharthur

NobodySpecial said:


> No, not at all. I did things that I did not want to do because I was young and stupid. It had nothing to do with valuing those relationships. Clearly. Since I ended them as I grew up and grew a spine.


A perfectly valid answer.

But--

The problem posed in this thread, I thought, was a different situation, where a spouse enjoyed the past activities and remembers them fondly but declines to share in such activities with his/her current partner and gives no good reason.


----------



## norajane

jaharthur said:


> A perfectly valid answer.
> 
> But--
> 
> The problem posed in this thread, I thought, was a different situation, where a spouse enjoyed the past activities and remembers them fondly but declines to share in such activities with his/her current partner and gives no good reason.


Yes, in theory. That seems to be what the OP was saying (a long time ago before he stopped posting), but who knows what the real situation actually was.

Personally, I doubt there are many women who wouldn't give a reason for why they won't do certain things. I suspect they'd more likely be loud and clear about why they don't like anymore, if they ever really did.

I doubt that situation comes up much, especially since no one else in this thread has said that their wives enjoyed certain acts with others but wouldn't give a reason why they won't do it with their hubbies. No one else in a hundred pages has said that's ever happened to them.


----------



## I Don't Know

samyeagar said:


> Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...
> 
> On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...
> 
> Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...





NobodySpecial said:


> No, not at all. I did things that I did not want to do because I was young and stupid. It had nothing to do with valuing those relationships. Clearly. Since I ended them as I grew up and grew a spine.


Agree Sam. I don't particularly care what kinds of things my wife did before. It's more what it says to me about how important this a-hole was to her. This is the hardest thing for me to get past or "understand" And I'm sorry but "I was stupid" really doesn't hold much water for me. We've all done stupid stuff but it's hard for me to see submitting yourself to someone who is "selfish, pressuring, demanding" as a silly little mistake. Giving to someone to the point of physical pain or feeling degraded doesn't sound like an "oops" to me. It sounds like you were willing to do anything to make that person happy, even though (or maybe because) they placed so little value on your happines and well being. Sure you ended the relationship eventually, but did you do it because you didn't want that person anymore or because you couldn't take being hurt anymore? I think there's a difference between the two.

Not speaking specifically to you NS, but your answer is exactly the kind of answer I hear when subjects like this come up at home.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> Yes, in theory. That seems to be what the OP was saying (a long time ago before he stopped posting), but who knows what the real situation actually was.
> 
> Personally, I doubt there are many women who wouldn't give a reason for why they won't do certain things. I suspect they'd more likely be loud and clear about why they don't like anymore, if they ever really did.
> 
> I doubt that situation comes up much, especially since no one else in this thread has said that their wives enjoyed certain acts with others but wouldn't give a reason why they won't do it with their hubbies. No one else in a hundred pages has said that's ever happened to them.


My wife had threesomes with her ex husband, but has said she wouldn't with me. She did them in an attempt to control his cheating, so there was some emotional duress involved, but she openly admits that she enjoyed them and has no hangups in general with them, thought they didn't live up to the hype.

Her reasons for not wanting to do them with me are twofold. The first being that she isn't willing to share me with another woman, that she knows what I can do in bed and wants me all to herself, that another woman would enjoy me just a bit too much. The other reason is that she knows how I am regarding sex, and she would be concerned that I would form an emotional bond, and it would emotionally screw up our marriage.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...
> 
> On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...
> 
> Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...


Again Sam....you don't get to decide that "she did this because she placed such a high value on the man." Just because you think that is what means...Doesn't make it true for her.


----------



## norajane

samyeagar said:


> My wife had threesomes with her ex husband, but has said she wouldn't with me. She did them in an attempt to control his cheating, so there was some emotional duress involved, but she openly admits that she enjoyed them and has no hangups in general with them, thought they didn't live up to the hype.
> 
> Her reasons for not wanting to do them with me are twofold. The first being that she isn't willing to share me with another woman, that she knows what I can do in bed and wants me all to herself, that another woman would enjoy me just a bit too much. The other reason is that she knows how I am regarding sex, and she would be concerned that I would form an emotional bond, and it would emotionally screw up our marriage.


So she told you exactly why she wouldn't do those things with you. 

And that is my point - most women would tell you why instead of not providing any reason. I don't think there are many women who wouldn't explain why they don't want to do something again.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Again Sam....you don't get to decide that "she did this because she placed such a high value on the man." Just because you think that is what means...Doesn't make it true for her.


And that is quite true, but this exposes the difference in individual views of sex. When two people see sex differently, it takes communication to get on the same page. My wife and I have been very successful in this.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> So she told you exactly why she wouldn't do those things with you.
> 
> And that is my point - most women would tell you why instead of not providing any reason. I don't think there are many women who wouldn't explain why they don't want to do something again.


Fortunately in our situation, I have no real desire for a threesome, and am most certainly on the same page as she is...I don't want to share her, and she is probably right, it would be next to impossible for me to do something like that and have no emotional bond form.

My point being though this is an example of a woman doing something, enjoying it, not opposed to doing it again in the general sense, but not wanting to do it with her current partner.


----------



## cagedrat

Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband. 

It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other. But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego. 

What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.

I really don't mean to sound harsh but she wasn't going to make you happy on this one and still be true to herself...


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And that is quite true, but this exposes the difference in individual views of sex. When two people see sex differently, it takes communication to get on the same page. My wife and I have been very successful in this.


It actually doesn't matter at all if two people view "sex" the same or not. It will never be possible for any person to view the sex SOMEONE ELSE had the same way that person viewed it.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> It actually doesn't matter at all if two people view "sex" the same or not. *It will never be possible for any person to view the sex SOMEONE ELSE had the same way that person viewed it*.


In the specific sense, of course not, just like anything else someone has experienced. In general attitudes and motivations, it matters a great deal. If one partner sees sex as primarily a physical, recreational activity that is just fun, in the same way one would feel about mountain biking, and the other sees it as primarily a way of giving and receiving love, emotional motivations, those differences, if not addressed can cause issues and a lot of hurt down the line. Case in point...the whole FWB scenario where one starts to fall for the other, or the threesome scenario where unforseen jealousy and emotional attachments form.

In the case with my wife, over the course of our relationship, we have had many many conversations about sex, feelings, and all that. In the beginning, she saw sex as primarily a recreational activity, far more physical than emotional. I was the exact opposite, but as we have grown together, she has really developed within herself the emotional attachment to sex with me to go along with, but not diminish her physical enjoyment, and I have found the same in me. I am enjoying sex on a purely physical level with her that I have never known.


----------



## Big Dude

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.


Did you inform your husband of this reality before he said "I do" and agreed to forsake all others? Or did you decide for him what kind of sexual relationship he wanted in a marriage?

Look, I really get the reasoning of your different sexual desires with different partners at different times of your life. But shouldn't a man know before he marries that his potential wife isn't marrying him for the sex? If he's cool with that, it's all good. If he's not cool with that, you are manipulating another human being for your own benefit...no matter how much rationalizing you do to make yourself feel better about it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> My wife had threesomes with her ex husband, but has said she wouldn't with me. She did them in an attempt to control his cheating, so there was some emotional duress involved, but she openly admits that she enjoyed them and has no hangups in general with them, thought they didn't live up to the hype.
> 
> Her reasons for not wanting to do them with me are twofold. The first being that she isn't willing to share me with another woman, that she knows what I can do in bed and wants me all to herself, that another woman would enjoy me just a bit too much. The other reason is that she knows how I am regarding sex, and she would be concerned that I would form an emotional bond, and it would emotionally screw up our marriage.


That just seems smart to me. Like she learned from her mistake.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I Don't Know said:


> Agree Sam. I don't particularly care what kinds of things my wife did before. It's more what it says to me about how important this a-hole was to her. This is the hardest thing for me to get past or "understand" And I'm sorry but "I was stupid" really doesn't hold much water for me. We've all done stupid stuff but it's hard for me to see submitting yourself to someone who is "selfish, pressuring, demanding" as a silly little mistake. Giving to someone to the point of physical pain or feeling degraded doesn't sound like an "oops" to me. It sounds like you were willing to do anything to make that person happy, even though (or maybe because) they placed so little value on your happines and well being.


So... what does this mean? Because my mistake was not a little one, I should get over and let DH bang me in the ass? Cuz that makes a lot of sense.

[Edit] This is something we DO sometimes do now that I actually enjoy. BECAUSE he care more about me than that. I trusted him to be patient, gentle unlike the BF.

It had nothing to do with value. It had to do what I didn't know about sexuality. It was about his using power over me to tell me what that was "supposed" to look like.




> Sure you ended the relationship eventually, but did you do it because you didn't want that person anymore or because you couldn't take being hurt anymore? I think there's a difference between the two.


I don't. The guys were not care takers of me. They did not deserve all of me. DH IS a care taker of me. And deserves the effort I then put forth. I can tell you with complete certainty that if he responded to me with Well You Did it with HIIIIIIIM. He was a a$$hole. Is that what you want? For me to view you as an a$$hole?



> Not speaking specifically to you NS, but your answer is exactly the kind of answer I hear when subjects like this come up at home.


Do you dismiss them in this way there too? How is that working for you.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> That just seems smart to me. Like she learned from her mistake.


Well, yes and no. The only mistake she saw was in her thinking that it would somehow change his cheating ways, and she now knows there was nothing she could do to control that in him.

As she said, she did enjoy them, and has no inherent opposition to them now, just opposed to them with me. If anything were to happen to us and we were not together, they likely would be something she would consider bringing back to the table with a different partner.


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> NobodySpecial and Catherine602. There's a common theme to your stories that I think is important. You were both honest with your husbands. I think most of the opposing comments in this thread have a theme where the woman was not honest. Note that I said most rather than all .
> 
> Just my rambling thought.


Well I think your right about the dishonesty. Sex being as important as it is should be discussed up front prior to marriage. Past history included. Doesn't need graphic details but some. Wants an desires also need a sounding board. 

If I always wanted to have a threesome and my finance told me she had them in the past but won't now with me I will need a good explanation for that. If it's an explanation I can live with fine then I need to never punish or manipulate her into trying. She made her decision then so did I and I now have to live with it. If it's a deal breaker and issue that you can't get over then perhaps this isn't the person for you. All those things should be handled pre marriage and everyone should have the information,

And then if they lied about it to me that's absolutely a deal breaker


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Well I think your right about the dishonesty. Sex being as important as it is should be discussed up front prior to marriage. Past history included. Doesn't need graphic details but some. Wants an desires also need a sounding board.


I, personally, think people should be HAVING it before marriage. Not just talking about it.


----------



## bandit.45

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.
> 
> It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other. But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego.
> 
> What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.
> 
> I really don't mean to sound harsh but she wasn't going to make you happy on this one and still be true to herself...



What if he found out something and decided to dump you?


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> In the specific sense, of course not, just like anything else someone has experienced. In general attitudes and motivations, it matters a great deal. If one partner sees sex as primarily a physical, recreational activity that is just fun, in the same way one would feel about mountain biking, and the other sees it as primarily a way of giving and receiving love, emotional motivations, those differences, if not addressed can cause issues and a lot of hurt down the line. Case in point...the whole FWB scenario where one starts to fall for the other, or the threesome scenario where unforseen jealousy and emotional attachments form.
> 
> In the case with my wife, over the course of our relationship, we have had many many conversations about sex, feelings, and all that. In the beginning, she saw sex as primarily a recreational activity, far more physical than emotional. I was the exact opposite, but as we have grown together, she has really developed within herself the emotional attachment to sex with me to go along with, but not diminish her physical enjoyment, and I have found the same in me. I am enjoying sex on a purely physical level with her that I have never known.


I kind of think it is sad that you think your way of viewing sex is superior to how your wife used to view it. It is kind of the main point I keep making. Just because you can't have detached sex doesn't mean attached and deeply meaningful sex is better.

What if I said the best sex I've ever had in my life was with a sex worker? You are attempting to place value on certain types of sex but you can't make values for others.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> *I kind of think it is sad that you think your way of viewing sex is superior to how your wife used to view it*. It is kind of the main point I keep making. Just because you can't have detached sex doesn't mean attached and deeply meaningful sex is better.
> 
> What if I said the best sex I've ever had in my life was with a sex worker? You are attempting to place value on certain types of sex but you can't make values for others.


Where the hell do you get that? I have neither said, nor implied any such thing. I have consistently said we have had different experiences and views, but I have never passed judgement that I am superior. You have been very consistent in pointing out that a person does not get to assign value to something for someone else, and I agree with you, but the flip side to that is also true. You can't strip value for someone else either. No one is inherently right or wrong for assigning what ever value they want.

My wife and I were both very upfront from the very beginning in what value we assigned to what, and we knew we were different in that regard. If any thing, she was the one who jumped to take meaning from my past that wasn't there in my very low partner count for a man my age. Her partner count, I could care less about because the important thing for me was fidelity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

You imply that your sexual past is "better" than your wife's all the time. You may not realize that but it is how you sound.


----------



## I Don't Know

NobodySpecial said:


> So... what does this mean?To me it means, shoplifting once is a mistake. Repeatedly shows a pattern of behavior. Because my mistake was not a little one, I should get over and let DH bang me in the ass? Cuz that makes a lot of sense. Of course not, that sounds painful! My question would be what was it about the BF that you would let him do it?
> 
> [Edit] This is something we DO sometimes do now that I actually enjoy. BECAUSE he care more about me than that. I trusted him to be patient, gentle unlike the BF. The point is the BF was not yet got the same result.
> 
> It had nothing to do with value. It had to do what I didn't know about sexuality. It was about his using power over me to tell me what that was "supposed" to look like. What power is that?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't. The guys were not care takers of me. They did not deserve all of me. DH IS a care taker of me. And deserves the effort I then put forth. I can tell you with complete certainty that if he responded to me with Well You Did it with HIIIIIIIM. He was a a$$hole. Is that what you want? For me to view you as an a$$hole? I guess the difference is, and this is just how I see it and only one way I see it, IF you decided you didn't want that person anymore or you deserved better, you grew. If it was I love him but he hurt me too much, that's a problem for me. Again, just how I see it.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you dismiss them in this way there too? How is that working for you. Actually, I do dismiss it. But I've also resigned myself to the fact that I will never and CAN never know for sure. So in the end it doesn't matter why.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> In the case with my wife, over the course of our relationship, we have had many many conversations about sex, feelings, and all that. In the beginning, she saw sex as primarily a recreational activity, far more physical than emotional. I was the exact opposite, *but as we have grown together*, she has really developed within herself the emotional attachment to sex with me to go along with, but not diminish her physical enjoyment, and I have found the same in me. I am enjoying sex on a purely physical level with her that I have never known.


The bold is where you are implying that growth by her was required for her to view sex like you do.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> You imply that your sexual past is "better" than your wife's all the time. You may not realize that but it is how you sound.


Better in the sense that mine was not nearly as traumatic and fvcked up at times? Yeah, mine is "better" in that regard. Superior though? No, not at all. You know that she has a lot of sexual baggage that you yourself have said even you would have a hard time dealing with.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> The bold is where you are implying that growth by her was required for her to view sex like you do.


You are looking for things that aren't there FW. Perhaps I should have worded it like this...as our relationship has progressed? And take the ENITRE statement...I showed where we have BOTH grown and changed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

IDK I was going to reply to you. But I am not going to copy and paste the whole thing! The board has a quote feature for a reason.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> Better in the sense that mine was not nearly as traumatic and fvcked up at times? Yeah, mine is "better" in that regard. Superior though? No, not at all. You know that she has a lot of sexual baggage that you yourself have said even you would have a hard time dealing with.


Unfortunately, someone's sexual experiences COULD be SUPERIOR.

Imagine if you will a female that had this sexual experience:

1. She had sex for validation and to fit in
2. Guys rarely thought about her satisfaction and used her for a pleasure aid
3. She was degraded and made to feel shamed but she kept doing it so someone would love her
4. She didn't even realize she was supposed to orgasm

Imagine if a male had this sexual experience:

1. He had to pay or be degraded in order to have sex
2. She never thought about his pleasure, it was always someone using him for what he has or his money
3. He never felt love, he had sex with people who would rob him and steal self worth

Someone who had a much richer and mutually satisfactory sexual experience would've had a superior one.h


----------



## samyeagar

treyvion said:


> Unfortunately, someone's sexual experiences COULD be SUPERIOR.
> 
> Imagine if you will a female that had this sexual experience:
> 
> 1. She had sex for validation and to fit in
> 2. Guys rarely thought about her satisfaction and used her for a pleasure aid
> 3. She was degraded and made to feel shamed but she kept doing it so someone would love her
> 4. She didn't even realize she was supposed to orgasm
> 
> Imagine if a male had this sexual experience:
> 
> 1. He had to pay or be degraded in order to have sex
> 2. She never thought about his pleasure, it was always someone using him for what he has or his money
> 3. He never felt love, he had sex with people who would rob him and steal self worth
> 
> Someone who had a much richer and mutually satisfactory sexual experience would've had a superior one.h


I understand what you are saying, but "Superior" is also in the eye of the beholder. We all have different tolerances, likes, dislikes, and at the end of it all, the individual is the only one who can decide for themselves what is "superior". I tend to look at it as just different.


----------



## larry.gray

Faithful Wife said:


> You imply that your sexual past is "better" than your wife's all the time. You may not realize that but it is how you sound.


That gets to be each person's individual call.

Yes, it is presumptuous to always make the judgement that people view it as better - but often those that have had both view sex as an emotional connection instead of simply a physical release is better. 

He doesn't get to decide that for his wife, but given that they talk, his wife may view it has superior. And if she does, that's her reality. You don't get to put your values on her, either.


----------



## homedepot

If I were to do it again I would ask not to know certain things about a woman's sexual past to avoid this. 

"When I was dating a woman for 2 weeks in my 20's I loved giving her a bath daily and flowers weekly. You are my wife but I don't think I want to do those sweet things any more. Its the past." 

Lets see how that flies. LOL


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I, personally, think people should be HAVING it before marriage. Not just talking about it.


Having what? Sex? When did I say they shouldn't


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Having what? Sex? When did I say they shouldn't


I was augmenting your excellent thought.


----------



## treyvion

samyeagar said:


> I understand what you are saying, but "Superior" is also in the eye of the beholder. We all have different tolerances, likes, dislikes, and at the end of it all, the individual is the only one who can decide for themselves what is "superior". I tend to look at it as just different.


What if they didn't even know what they were supposed to feel before?:scratchhead:


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I agree with homedepot here
I think some things in a persons past should stay there. If someone had a wild adventurous sex life in the past, but doesn't want one any more, I think this is something they shouldn't tell their partner if they think the partner might be jealous. 







homedepot said:


> If I were to do it again I would ask not to know certain things about a woman's sexual past to avoid this.
> 
> "When I was dating a woman for 2 weeks in my 20's I loved giving her a bath daily and flowers weekly. You are my wife but I don't think I want to do those sweet things any more. Its the past."
> 
> Lets see how that flies. LOL


----------



## nuclearnightmare

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I agree with homedepot here
> I think some things in a persons past should stay there. If someone had a wild adventurous sex life in the past, but doesn't want one any more, I think this is something they shouldn't tell their partner if they think the partner might be jealous.


 can you acheive intimacy without knowing some important things about your partner's past?


----------



## treyvion

nuclearnightmare said:


> can you acheive intimacy without knowing some important things about your partner's past?


You can. You can weave a new present.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. *He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him*. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.
> 
> It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other. But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego.
> 
> What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.
> 
> I really don't mean to sound harsh but she wasn't going to make you happy on this one and still be true to herself...


wow. you appear to be the exact type of dishonest, sexually with-holding wife that this thread is based on. up to this point I was not at all convinced that married women like you actually existed. what did the other guys have that your husband doesn't? aren't you interested in teaching your husband how to satisfy you as much as previous lovers have? 
does he know that your passion and excitement has been greater with other men than it has been with him? i.e. does he know he's your sexual plan B?

If you want to clarify what you meant by the bolded and other statements feel free though.


----------



## treyvion

nuclearnightmare said:


> wow. you appear to be the exact type of dishonest, sexually with-holding wife that this thread is based on. up to this point I was not at all convinced that married women like you actually existed. what did the other guys have that your husband doesn't? aren't you interested in teaching your husband how to satisfy you as much as previous lovers have?
> does he know that your passion and excitement has been greater with other men than it has been with him? i.e. does he know he's your sexual plan B?
> 
> If you want to clarify what you meant by the bolded and other statements feel free though.


I don't know if this person respects her husband. The reason being she is putting his stuff out there like that, and really doesn't care if she crushes or smashes his ego.

Of course one night stands might be more exciting than someone who has been dependable and loyal to you. In our country such people are taken for granted.

One night stands are exciting by nature because you don't really know who you are dealing with. It causes an adrenaline rush.

How the hell is loyal and responsible hubby supposed to cause an adrenaline rush unless you know for a fact he can take a good majority of the females he comes across.

Kindest Regards.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.
> 
> It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other. But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego.
> 
> What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.
> 
> I really don't mean to sound harsh but she wasn't going to make you happy on this one and still be true to herself...


You have every right to feel the way you do, so on one hand I'm not going to argue with you on your stance. However, I also would have never married a person like you. If I knew my GF was holding onto certain cherished sexual experiences/memories where she FONDLY did sexual acts with people in her past that is now off limits to me, I'd break it off and find a new GF. 

There is a checklist of things critical to make a great marriage, and I did my best to find someone that not only checked the right boxes from a personality and values perspective but sexually as well. I needed someone who would willingly and happily want to share her body with me and would want to happily and willingly want to have my body.

No offense intended in your direction, but your husband clearly settled for less if he is not getting your all. Honestly, if you husband feels that he is missing out, then that is on him. It's his fault that he didn't vet you properly prior to marrying you - IF he has sexual needs that you are not willing to fulfill for him while happily doing it for others in your past.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening nuclearnightmare
I think I can. I know very little about my wife's past, and she knows little about mine. We know about each other's present now. 

There are some things about my past I have told her, but there are some things that she doesn't need to know. 




nuclearnightmare said:


> can you acheive intimacy without knowing some important things about your partner's past?


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> You imply that your sexual past is "better" than your wife's all the time. You may not realize that but it is how you sound.


I think *my wife *had a "superior" or "better" sex life than I did. I don't know of anything she did unwillingly or that she now thinks in retrospect was degrading.

I was expecting that we would build upon our experiences together and that we would do things equivalent to what she had done with other men before me. I don't need exactly the same things, but there are many things which sound like fun but which she won't do with me. In the car is one. While camping is another. She agreed to try it on the beach in the middle of a dark night but then announced as we got started that it wasn't "as exciting" as she expected it to be. That was the end of that fantasy for me.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> I think *my wife *had a "superior" or "better" sex life than I did. I don't know of anything she did unwillingly or that she now thinks in retrospect was degrading.
> 
> I was expecting that we would build upon our experiences together and that we would do things equivalent to what she had done with other men before me. I don't need exactly the same things, but there are many things which sound like fun but which she won't do with me. In the car is one. While camping is another. She agreed to try it on the beach in the middle of a dark night but then announced as we got started that it wasn't "as exciting" as she expected it to be. That was the end of that fantasy for me.


Your in like tenth place if even that. You know she remembers fondly back to her exploits. If she thought you where all that she would've went above and beyond what was previously done.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening nuclearnightmare
> I think I can. I know very little about my wife's past, and she knows little about mine. We know about each other's present now.
> 
> There are some things about my past I have told her, but there are some things that she doesn't need to know.


Richard:

Well this is too interesting a discussion to let die. Not trying to make any particular point at your expense, just highly curious. What kind of gaps are we talking about? Unaware of numbers of past sexual partners, number of serious relationships, number of previous marriages??


----------



## Thor

treyvion said:


> Your in like tenth place if even that. You know she remembers fondly back to her exploits. If she thought you where all that she would've went above and beyond what was previously done.


A lot of the problem is her sex abuse history. The trajectory of her behavior is pretty classic, including an inability to sexually engage after marriage. In some ways I am definitely in second place to one particular ex, but in others I think the interpretation is that without her abuse history it would be much better for me. Still it doesn't make it any easier emotionally.


----------



## Marduk

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.
> 
> It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other. But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego.
> 
> What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.
> 
> I really don't mean to sound harsh but she wasn't going to make you happy on this one and still be true to herself...


I'm still picking my jaw up off the floor.

All I'm reading here is that you settled, sex-wise.

Does your husband know this?


----------



## Thundarr

You guys have to look at the context of cagedrat's comment. From her other thread in early June she was separating from her husband ( my empathy cagedrat. Divorce sucks ). She's not talking about her happily married husband. She's talking about her Ex or STBX. It was probably bravado to get a jab in at him in her mind. If not then it's a symptom of why their splitting.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Thor said:


> I think *my wife *had a "superior" or "better" sex life than I did. I don't know of anything she did unwillingly or that she now thinks in retrospect was degrading.


I don't think the THING is what can be degrading, but the context in which it is experienced.



> I was *expecting *that we would build upon our experiences together and that we would do things *equivalent *to what she had done with other men before me.


Don't know if those bolded words will illicit any thoughts. But it was what struck me. Do with it what you will.


----------



## Catherine602

samyeagar said:


> Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...
> 
> On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...
> 
> Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...


You expressed how men feel, women might feel some emotion too. She was coerced to do sexual things to have a relationship by men who didn't care. But the man who says he cares does the same thing. Only he says she should sacrifice her desires to serve him to prove she loves him. 

They are both looking for the same thing, someone to trust. Neither one can trust the other.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Thundarr said:


> You guys have to look at the context of cagedrat's comment. From her other thread in early June she was separating from her husband ( my empathy cagedrat. Divorce sucks ). She's not talking about her happily married husband. She's talking about her Ex or STBX. It was probably bravado to get a jab in at him in her mind. If not then it's a symptom of why their splitting.


Her comments though appeared to be how she felt from the beginning of her M. She didn't say she only felt this way later on. More how she has always felt about him compared to other guys that simply turned her on more.......


----------



## TiggyBlue

samyeagar said:


> Now we're starting to see the catch 22 of this...
> 
> On the one hand, you did things with other men because you felt pressured, coerced, didn't want to or enjoy, so we should understand and not want you to do the same...
> 
> Yet on the other hand, you placed such a high value on the other man, on your relationship with him that you still did those things anyway because he was so valuable you would do anything to keep the man you thought was selfish, pressuring, demanding...the message sent is that you don't value me as much, our relationship as much...


If someone can a position they can be pressured,coerced or didn't want to do it's pretty obvious they have low self esteem (or had low self esteem at the time).
When someone get's healthy self esteem they refuse to be pressured or coerced into things they don't want to do, the perceived value of the man is irrelevant.

If someone was in a relationship they got screamed at but got out of the relationship (built their confidence) and set boundaries for themselves in other relationships does that mean they don't value their present partner as much as the they did value their previous partner, since their previous partner was so 'valuable' to them they would allow them to scream in their face and they wouldn't allow their present partner to scream in their face?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Catherine602 said:


> They are both looking for the same thing, someone to trust. The man is asking their wives to trust that he love her. Even though he hounds her and gets angry because she won't have *sacrificial sex*.
> The women her husband to trust that she loves him. Even though she does not want to prove that she loves him by giving him sexual pleasure and *sacrificing* her own.
> 
> 
> Neither one can trust the other.


I'm probably missing the context of your exchange with Sam. What I see in this post is heavily tilted to make the man in this example look bad. Either 1) he's demanding sacrificial sex or 2) the wife doesn't want to sacrifice something of herself. What exactly is the message here - that men are demanding sacrificial acts of love or that women feel pressured to provide sacrificial acts of love?

I'm thinking that the term "sacrifice" is used to overly dramatize in this post. You can take any quality marriage and see "sacrificial acts of love" demonstrated by both spouses on a regular basis - from sacrificing a weekend of leisure to work on a project that a spouse wants to voluntarily changing your career in order to please a spouse. 

If I interpret your comment within the context of this thread, if the woman is consistent in never doing the "sacrificial sex act" for any lover, then that's her choice and it's her right. Not sure how this fits in.


----------



## Thundarr

nuclearnightmare said:


> Her comments though appeared to be how she felt from the beginning of her M. She didn't say she only felt this way later on. More how she has always felt about him compared to other guys that simply turned her on more.......


I know but It's easy to bad mouth the EX and it kind of feels good to do it. I think paying attention to what someone has to say about their EX and their partner in a failing marriage requires a grain of salt.


----------



## Marduk

Thundarr said:


> I know but It's easy to bad mouth the EX and it kind of feels good to do it. I think paying attention to what someone has to say about their EX and their partner in a failing marriage requires a grain of salt.


To do it in a way that lights up a ton of guy's insecurities that are here trying to improve their sex life is a really, really terrible idea.

How many husbands read that and immediately thought "what if my wife feels the same way?"

Not cool.


----------



## waylan

NobodySpecial said:


> So... what does this mean? Because my mistake was not a little one, I should get over and let DH bang me in the ass? Cuz that makes a lot of sense.
> 
> This is something we DO sometimes do now that I actually enjoy. BECAUSE he care more about me than that. I trusted him to be patient, gentle unlike the BF.


From a man's perspective this translates to: Boyfriend was loved/valued enough that he was enabled to take what he wanted without complaint - even if it caused you discomfort. Husband might get a taste if he plays by your rules and you feel like it. From a man's perspective would you rather be the boyfriend or husband?


----------



## waylan

Personal said:


> I would rather be the husband!
> 
> From this man's perspective I don't want to take sex from an unwilling partner if it causes discomfort.
> 
> I share the sex I do because I feel like it and want to do it!
> 
> There's no way any woman should feel entitled to have me perform a sexual act if I don't feel like it or want to do it, no matter what I have done (enjoyed or otherwise) in the past.



This is what is great about the world - diversity. Some guys are content with being lapdogs - hoping their master throws some scraps from the table. Other guys demand to be at the head of the table.

The same would hold true for a women. How would the wife feel if she knew hubby performed oral on demand for the ex - but she only gets it if she doesn't ask for it and the moon is in the right phase? (How dare she feel entitled to anything sexual!!!) But who did the hubby value more?

Here is a little secret - I don't really like giving oral to my wife. I could play it any number of ways - That is is demeaning to me or distasteful. How dare she expect me to do something I'm not 100% comfortable with? But you know what? It makes her *happy* so I gladly do it whenever and wherever she wants. I'm sure there are things she would rather not do - but does for my enjoyment as well. That is what a good relationship is all about. We make sacrifices - both big and small - for each other.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> To do it in a way that lights up a ton of guy's insecurities that are here trying to improve their sex life is a really, really terrible idea.
> 
> How many husbands read that and immediately thought "what if my wife feels the same way?"
> 
> Not cool.


I wish you guys would stop trying to speak for all men. Some men do not fear their wife's sexual past even if she did get off in all kinds of fun ways.


----------



## Faithful Wife

waylan said:


> From a man's perspective this translates to: Boyfriend was loved/valued enough that he was enabled to take what he wanted without complaint - even if it caused you discomfort. Husband might get a taste if he plays by your rules and you feel like it. From a man's perspective would you rather be the boyfriend or husband?


Ditto what I just said to marduk.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

NobodySpecial said:


> I have given this thread a bit of thought. When we were first married, there WERE things that I had done with other bfs that I did not do with him. I had done them because I had been pressure, cajoled and coerced. Made to feel less if I was not the rock star in bed. None of those guys cared about how *I* felt about it. It was all about them and getting their rocks off with their hotty gf. What a wonder I am not with any of them now. Early in our marriage, we had a conversation about BJs. I did it, but not often and not cheerfully. He told me he loved them and would love them more often. I told him about the pushy demanding boyfriends who would jam it down my throat. Grab my head, pull down the zip, and just PUSH me there. He was horrified. He told me right then and there that he never EVER wanted me to do anything uncomfortable or demeaning to myself. How would that be sex for us together? That would be me servicing him like a prostitute and hardly likely to increase our enthusiasm. Good on him!
> 
> When I said that if I would not do with a man, I guess that is how I feel NOW. 20+ years later. In the intervening period, MY happiness in the bedroom and out was his priority. He looked into the future, the rest of his life with me, with no way to guarantee that he was going to get a sexual super freak. And he chose ME. That was an investment in my willingness to TRY. WANT to please him. And learn how to trust him.


In my opinion your thinking was not good, and is still not good, 'servicing'???

For the wrong reasons you gave BJ's like a porn star,

For the wrong reasons you did not give BJ's like a porn star.

Your husband seems to deserve your loving actions on all levels of the relation. Also sexual.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

nuclearnightmare said:


> can you acheive intimacy without knowing some important things about your partner's past?


Yes you can. Beautiful and loving intimacy. The works.

But total devastation if you find out and live in doubt if it was all true or not


----------



## Thor

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think the THING is what can be degrading, but the context in which it is experienced.
> 
> 
> Don't know if those bolded words will illicit any thoughts. But it was what struck me. Do with it what you will.


I agree, mostly, that the act doesn't define if it is degrading, rather the context does. For me, I am pretty plain vanilla, so I cannot find a context for some acts which doesn't seem degrading. Getting pooped on? I can't see how that isn't degrading somehow. In terms of mainstream sexual acts, the context is everything.

My expectations were that marriage would be just a formalizing of our relationship. We would still be the same people, and we would still have the same type of interactions as before, except we made it a permanent situation with the marriage ceremony.

I didn't expect any big changes. I thought the trajectory we were on would continue. From a sexual standpoint I thought we would continue to do the things we were doing. We were exploring new things before we got married, so I thought we'd continue to explore new things afterwards. Instead, she had very different ideas and plans about marriage. Plus her CSA kicked in and fouled things up even more.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

cagedrat said:


> Quite honestly, I didn't marry my DH for the sex. He wasn't the best I'd ever shared intimacy and sex with. I'd experienced passion and excitement to extreme levels with others that I didn't want to share with him. I still won't because those relationships are different than the one I have my husband.
> 
> It didn't mean he wasn't sexually satisfying me, he was different. We did things differently than I had with previous partners, and each one was different from the other.


I can see this as your view of reality, no problem.




> But what I did in another relationship is absolutely none of his business. PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with him. If that hurts his ego, that becomes his problem. What I will or will not do with him has zero to do with anyone else and if he brought it up, I would consider it completely disrespectful and would put me in an awkward position, unfairly. I would have to lie to spare his ego or be honest and crush his ego.
> 
> What your wife did with anyone else, no matter what she liked or didn't like about it, has NOTHING to do with you.


This is selfish rationalization of the highest level. Disrespectful. Destructive to one's selfconfidence.

*About word for word incorrect. *

Everything of this is part of your relation with him. Everything is working in your mind or in his mind. Because even the things he does not know are contributing to his wrong understanding of you, your feelings and your actions. Let alone the things he knows, unconsciously feels, assumes.


----------



## samyeagar

The common thing that stands out to me in this thread is the more satisfying and fulfilling the sex life, the less of an issue this is. Much like everything else in the relationship, it's only a problem when it becomes well...a problem.

I think we have come to the conclusion that generally speaking, many, if not most people would find fondly reminiscing and reliving past sexcapades in front of, or in a manner that would get back to your current partner is disrespectful at the very least.

Right or wrong, it does seem that there is at least a similar initial thought process and questioning among a lot of people when details are found out. It appears that context is very important, and again...how satisfied and fulfilled one is in the relationship.

Much of what I have pointed out in this thread seems to be very similar to what others have thought as well. I suspect that for many, certainly for myself that the statements here are merely a snapshot of the thought process that happened very quickly in our own minds and was never verbalized to our partners because we came to the conclusion that it really didn't matter to us.

In my own case, with everything I have went through, all the necessary details from my wifes past, there was only one thing that actually made me somewhat verbally question things. Not so much that I questioned her desiring someone MORE than me, but when I found out that even with everything she went through with her ex husband, the physical, verbal, emotional, financial abuse, right up until a few months before she and I met, she kept going back to him for sex. I didn't know that was her pattern of behavior until a few months before our wedding. I wanted to know what it was about him, about his hold over her, that he could treat her like that, and still after years of being free of him, she kept going back.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I wish you guys would stop trying to speak for all men. Some men do not fear their wife's sexual past even if she did get off in all kinds of fun ways.


I find it fascinating that you're _assuming_ that I was _assuming_ to speak for all men.

What I was trying to do is point out that men have triggers too, and this statement may trigger "a ton ... of guys here."

My logic is simple. This is a forum to help in marriage, in a subcategory of "Sex in Marriage."

The description of this category is "Sexual problems are common in many relationships."

Therefore, this category is for those looking to deal with Sexual problems in Marriage.

Therefore, the guys are here to improve their sex lives in their marriage... 

I personally think it likely that a higher percentage of men here than you may find normally (because it's a self selecting group) may either feel like they're not getting the kind of sex they want, or the amount of sex they want, or feel that they are unable to give their wives the kind of sex their wives want, or the amount of sex their wives want.

In any of these cases I could see (myself included) how I'd worry that my wife had a better sex life in her past than I am giving her now. And be -- perhaps -- insecure about it.

If I'm not getting the kind of sex I want, or the amount of sex I want, I may worry that it's because she's not as attracted to me as she has been to other guys.

If I'm not giving my wife the kind of sex she wants, or the amount of sex she wants, I may worry that other guys have, and she now misses having sex with them instead of me.

Either way, I didn't say "all men," _you_ did.

And I wonder why you feel the need to jump in and accuse me of things you _think_ I've said and defend others here.

Just like with this statement:



Faithful Wife said:


> Message to Marduk: sl*t shaming "all women" this way isn't sexy in the least. I reported your post as it is insulting.


When in no way was I "sl*t shaming all women."

I've never been accused of this before in my life. Truly, this was a first.

In fact, in my life, I've often been warned about dating highly experienced women and being too tolerant about it by... get this... other women.

So again, I'm wondering what your point is, why you feel the need to accuse me of things I'm not saying, and why you find it OK to jump to conclusions about me, and yet are the first to jump in when I might be jumping to conclusions about others.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

See_Listen_Love said:


> I can see this as your view of reality, no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is selfish rationalization of the highest level. Disrespectful. Destructive to one's selfconfidence.
> 
> *About word for word incorrect. *
> 
> Everything of this is part of your relation with him. Everything is working in your mind or in his mind. Because even the things he does not know are contributing to his wrong understanding of you, your feelings and your actions. Let alone the things he knows, unconsciously feels, assumes.


SLL - 

agree with you here. This is essentially what I mean when I say that building an intimate relationship with a person does require having good knowledge of that person's past.


----------



## waylan

Faithful Wife said:


> I wish you guys would stop trying to speak for all men. Some men do not fear their wife's sexual past even if she did get off in all kinds of fun ways.


Why? You don't have a problem speaking on behalf of all women lol.


----------



## samyeagar

waylan said:


> Why? You don't have a problem speaking on behalf of all women lol.


I know many people seem to choose words that are all inclusive, I think it is a reasonable assumption, unless explicitly indicated otherwise, to assume that most posters are not actually meaning to be all inclusive, and actually mean "most", "some","many" etc...


----------



## Catherine602

I'll give my take from a very primal level. I don't know Personal or Waylan but going by their last few exchanges. I would be free and explorative with one and not with the other. One I would trust to be able to handle himself materfully and the other I would not trust and see him as a truculent want to be boss fumbler. One I would follow and the other I would set firm boundaries to let him know where his authority ends. 

That's purely gut feelings knowing nothing else about them. Those first impressions would dissipate but they are there. My point is that the more entitled you are or doctrinaire or verbally demanding or angry or petulant the further away you get from drawing what you want. You challenge a woman for sexual control and dominance before she has had a chance to decide if she feels you are capable of the role you covet. 

One of the afore mentioned guys sounds relaxed easy going etc. He also sounds powerful and I wouldn't want to have to negotiate a contract with him. The other guy sounds like a difficult person but easy to prevail over. Find out what makes him see red then hoist the flag. That's what I feel. I don't know why but there you are. 

Maybe relax and let things unfold. Ultimately, you have no control over man or women. People do what they do and it does not always depend on reason or doctrinal truths. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Faithful Wife said:


> I wish you guys would stop trying to speak for all men. Some men do not fear their wife's sexual past even if she did get off in all kinds of fun ways.


some men don't mind being married to someone who views them as less compelling sexually than they have other past partners. whereas some men won't accept being 2nd, 3rd etc. They'd rather cut their wife loose and go find someone more excited to be with them. Some women/wives fear being cut loose........


----------



## Faithful Wife

Waylan...your other points to me were valid but please find one post of mine where I sound like I am speaking for all women.


----------



## samyeagar

Catherine602 said:


> I'll give my take from a very primal level. I don't know Personal or Waylan but going by their last few exchanges. I would be free and explorative with one and not with the other. One I would trust to be able to handle himself materfully and the other I would not trust and see him as a truculent want to be boss fumbler. One I would follow and the other I would set firm boundaries to let him know where his authority ends.
> 
> That's purely gut feelings knowing nothing else about them. Those first impressions would dissipate but they are there. My point is that the more entitled you are or doctrinaire or verbally demanding or angry or petulant the further away you get from drawing what you want. You challenge a woman for sexual control and dominance before she has had a chance to decide if she feels you are capable of the role you covet.
> 
> One of the afore mentioned guys sounds relaxed easy going etc. He also sounds powerful and I wouldn't want to have to negotiate a contract with him. The other guy sounds like a difficult person but easy to prevail over. Find out what makes him see red then hoist the flag. That's what I feel. I don't know why but there you are.
> 
> Maybe relax and let things unfold. Ultimately, you have no control over man or women. People do what they do and it does not always depend on reason or doctrinal truths.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does this example give any indication to how you think you might feel about the over all relationship with these two different people?


----------



## Marduk

nuclearnightmare said:


> some men don't mind being married to someone who views them as less compelling sexually than they have other past partners. whereas some men won't accept being 2nd, 3rd etc. They'd rather cut their wife loose and go find someone more excited to be with them. Some women/wives fear being cut loose........


Or some men (like me!) would like to always keep stepping it up to ensure our life partners have a mind-blowing sex life that keeps getting better and better.

I don't just want to be the best my wife has ever had, I want to be the best my wife has ever had _including myself in the past_.

I'm like that with many things in my life, and many things in my family's life. I want to be the best Dad I can be to my kids, the best husband I can be to my wife, I want to be the most fit I've ever been, the happiest I've ever been, and create the most joy in my family's life possible.

And that includes sexing my wife up regularly, and blowing her mind in the sack regularly. Discovering new things. Uncovering new ways to create pleasure. For both of us.


----------



## samyeagar

Just kind of musing here...

For me, the most important thing is that my wife be willing, wanting and desiring not to provide specific acts, but rather a satisfying and fulfilling sex life for me. Part of that satisfying and fulfilling sex life for me is her being open to, and allowing me to provide the same for her.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Or some men (like me!) would like to always keep stepping it up to ensure our life partners have a mind-blowing sex life that keeps getting better and better.
> 
> I don't just want to be the best my wife has ever had, I want to be the best my wife has ever had _including myself in the past_.



Every man should. 

However, when a woman marries a man she's not attracted to then she feels like she has a troglodyte between her legs and will still be less apt to do things with him that she did for others. 

Attraction is the launching pad for sex. If there is no attraction then the husband won't get the goodies.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> Just kind of musing here...
> 
> For me, the most important thing is that my wife be willing, wanting and desiring not to provide specific acts, but rather a satisfying and fulfilling sex life for me. Part of that satisfying and fulfilling sex life for me is her being open to, and allowing me to provide the same for her.


As long as it doesn't include threesomes....


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> As long as it doesn't include threesomes....


And honestly, the thing with the threesomes, I understand why she would not be able to enjoy one with me, but would with a different partner, and am perfectly fine with that. We were able to come to that understanding because she knows how to communicate her thoughts and feelings in a way that I can understand, and I accept how her mind and thought process works when it comes to sex. In short, our communication style lets us "get" each other without having to have shared common experiences to compare to.


----------



## Amplexor

samyeagar said:


> I know many people seem to choose words that are all inclusive, I think it is a reasonable assumption, unless explicitly indicated otherwise, to assume that most posters are not actually meaning to be all inclusive, and actually mean "most", "some","many" etc...



I believe that absolutely all people who make blanket statements are idiots!

Before anybody reports this post read it again.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> And honestly, the thing with the threesomes, I understand why she would not be able to enjoy one with me, but would with a different partner, and am perfectly fine with that. We were able to come to that understanding because she knows how to communicate her thoughts and feelings in a way that I can understand, and I accept how her mind and thought process works when it comes to sex. In short, our communication style lets us "get" each other without having to have shared common experiences to compare to.


I still don't buy her logic. I think it's bullshyte. 

She had a threesome with her ex-husband because she knew he was cheating anyway and wanted to try the girl on girl thing, so that's why she wanted to try it. But she won't do it with you because she's afraid she would be too jealous seeing you bang another chick.....

Okay......


----------



## jaharthur

samyeagar said:


> I know many people seem to choose words that are all inclusive, I think it is a reasonable assumption, unless explicitly indicated otherwise, to assume that most posters are not actually meaning to be all inclusive, and actually mean "most", "some","many" etc...


Interesting view. I tend to take what people say or write at face value, without making assumptions of any kind. If they didn't mean what they said, then they can restate it.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> I still don't buy her logic. I think it's bullshyte.
> 
> She had a threesome with her ex-husband because she knew he was cheating anyway and *wanted to try the girl on girl thing*, so that's why she wanted to try it. But she won't do it with you because she's afraid she would be too jealous seeing you bang another chick.....
> 
> Okay......


For sure she wanted to try it, she said as much...but I do believe that she saw it as a way to have some control over his cheating.

That is not that uncommon of a response actually. There are some here who honestly suggest something along those lines as a remedy for sexless marriages...open the marriage up with the other spouses permission, some even going so far as to allow veto power.

I have no doubts she would not deal well with seeing me another chick...not well at all...


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'm so happy my DH isn't into the idea of a threesome at all. Bc ya know,I'd HAVE to do that for him since I did it with some jerk 10 years ago and all.


----------



## norajane

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm so happy my DH isn't into the idea of a threesome at all. Bc ya know,I'd HAVE to do that for him since I did it with some jerk 10 years ago and all.


:nono:

No, no, pay attention, you must have been far more into that jerk from 10 years ago than you are into your husband. To prove otherwise, you must have a threesome whether either you or your H wants one or not.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

norajane said:


> :nono:
> 
> No, no, pay attention, you must have been far more into that jerk from 10 years ago than you are into your husband. To prove otherwise, you must have a threesome whether either you or your H wants one or not.


well sh*t.

I guess I gotta make some calls.


----------



## samyeagar

norajane said:


> :nono:
> 
> No, no, pay attention, you must have been far more into that jerk from 10 years ago than you are into your husband. To prove otherwise, you must have a threesome whether either you or your H wants one or not.


I do hope this was at least in part tongue in cheek (or pvssy as it pertains to the subject  )

The underlying issue doesn't really seem so much to be the specific acts as much as the general attitude as it relates to specific acts. The common situation seems to be that he wants to experiment with something, to include something in their sex life for his fulfillment. He knows that is something that she had done happily, enthusiastically, found fulfillment and satisfaction in, and enjoyed in the past, that she still thinks about in the present, but for what ever reason she does not want to do it with him. I do think it is reasonable for a person to at least wonder why. The cases where it was something she did out of obligation, coercion, guilt, force, fear, those reasons have been accepted as very valid reasons to to do something.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm so happy my DH isn't into the idea of a threesome at all. Bc ya know,I'd HAVE to do that for him since I did it with some jerk 10 years ago and all.


I'm like your husband in this...the idea of a threesome holds no interest for me. Don't even like threesome porn. That is probably part of the reason why that was a very easy one for me to move past. That, and the fact that as we were talking about it, she made it clear it was something she would be willing to do for me if it was something I really truly wanted to experience, but her reasons for not wanting to, for me, effectively takes it off the table, and I'm fine with that.


----------



## Catherine602

samyeagar said:


> Does this example give any indication to how you think you might feel about the over all relationship with these two different people?


No but in my dealings with people in general, my gut level feelings are fleeting at best. My initial impression may prove to be erroneous upon getting to know the other person. 

If I met these two men for a date, I'd probably have a second date with the relaxed one and not the authoritative one. Although i am submissive, I don't want an authority figure. It's my choice not an imperative. My husband is dominant by choice too and he is willing to lead.


----------



## samyeagar

Catherine602 said:


> No but in my dealings with people in general, my gut level feelings are fleeting at best. My initial impression may prove to be erroneous upon getting to know the other person.
> 
> If I met these two men for a date, I'd probably have a second date with the relaxed one and not the authoritative one. I'm submissive but it's my choice not an imperative. My husband is dominant by choice and willing to lead.
> 
> But I am perfectly capable of leading myself if my parter tried to manipulate or threaten me. Trying to rule by threats of D or cheating is tyranny. A man who does this, catches a starfish not a tiger.


Is it safe to interpret this as you saying you would be more "into", more generally attracted to the laid back one, the one you'd feel more comfortable opening up more fully sexually?


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm so happy my DH isn't into the idea of a threesome at all. Bc ya know,I'd HAVE to do that for him since I did it with some jerk 10 years ago and all.


Honest question: why did you do it with the other guy and would you be willing to do it now if your H wanted to?

I 100% see the issue of not wanting to see your H with someone else (or your wife with someone else) but would be willing to with someone that meant little to you.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> Honest question: why did you do it with the other guy and would you be willing to do it now if your H wanted to?
> 
> I 100% see the issue of not wanting to see your H with someone else (or your wife with someone else) but would be willing to with someone that meant little to you.


I had problems with sex as a younger woman. Major emotional issues too. I did stupid things and put myself at risk constantly. 

If DH wanted a threesome,in spite of knowing my past issues, he would not be the man for me and wouldn't be the man I thought he was. If he asked for a threesome it wouldn't be about whether or not I'd do it for him...it would create a whole bigger issue to discuss.


----------



## NobodySpecial

waylan said:


> From a man's perspective this translates to: Boyfriend was loved/valued enough that he was enabled to take what he wanted without complaint - even if it caused you discomfort. Husband might get a taste if he plays by your rules and you feel like it. From a man's perspective would you rather be the boyfriend or husband?


Not my man. His value perspective was that I was with him not the other guy. There was no quid pro quo about it. He gets it now because we BOTH enjoy freaky sex.


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> *I had problems with sex as a younger woman. Major emotional issues too. I did stupid things and put myself at risk constantly. *
> 
> If DH wanted a threesome,in spite of knowing my past issues, he would not be the man for me and wouldn't be the man I thought he was. If he asked for a threesome it wouldn't be about whether or not I'd do it for him...it would create a whole bigger issue to discuss.


Pretty much a direct quote from my wife.


----------



## NobodySpecial

See_Listen_Love said:


> In my opinion your thinking was not good, and is still not good, 'servicing'???
> 
> For the wrong reasons you gave BJ's like a porn star,
> 
> For the wrong reasons you did not give BJ's like a porn star.
> 
> Your husband seems to deserve your loving actions on all levels of the relation. Also sexual.


Do you think that development over time is possible? The trust that grew into our very satisfying, no holds barred sex life, grew out of his NOT thinking he "deserved" things from me in and out of the bedroom and vice versa. I did not "deserve" that he fit my model of what a husband was. I did not "deserve" a provider. I did not "deserve"... anything. And neither did we. He did not WANT any acts that was not in the context of a MUTUALLY satisfying sex life. I got married in my early 20s after being raised Catholic and all that that applies. Had my husband thought he "deserved" a menu of his choosing of acts instead of having the view that we get to develop our sexual relationship together, we would be divorced now. Instead we are screwing like bunnies 20 years into our marriage.

What did the bf get? A scared woman waiting for it to be done. Then shortly dumped. I am sure that was great for him. Thankfully, my husband would never do that.


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> I had problems with sex as a younger woman. Major emotional issues too. I did stupid things and put myself at risk constantly.
> 
> If DH wanted a threesome,in spite of knowing my past issues, he would not be the man for me and wouldn't be the man I thought he was. If he asked for a threesome it wouldn't be about whether or not I'd do it for him...it would create a whole bigger issue to discuss.


But he knew about this up front Scarlet? I mean you didn't hide his from him and he knew you had problems with sex when younger? He had all the information?


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I had problems with sex as a younger woman. Major emotional issues too. I did stupid things and put myself at risk constantly.
> 
> If DH wanted a threesome,in spite of knowing my past issues, he would not be the man for me and wouldn't be the man I thought he was. If he asked for a threesome it wouldn't be about whether or not I'd do it for him...it would create a whole bigger issue to discuss.


Thanks for that. Didn't mean to pry, but was curious.

Wife joked once that if we were ever to get divorced, before we split she'd want to have a 3-some with another girl. Because we wouldn't be together anymore so it would be OK to see me with someone else.

Made me _kind_ of feel like it's something she wanted, but wouldn't be willing to inside our marriage (nor would I) and I've always been curious about it. Not about the threesome (been there done that), curious about her side of it... like if she was testing the waters to see if I would be into it, like it was something she was missing out of in her sexual "bucket" list or something.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Wolf1974 said:


> But he knew about this up front Scarlet? I mean you didn't hide his from him and he knew you had problems with sex when younger? He had all the information?


He knew it all up front. I laid it on the table when we first started talking about dating. He sort of heard things here and there from when we were in high school but he just didn't know why I had issues til I told him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

ScarletBegonias said:


> well sh*t.
> 
> I guess I gotta make some calls.


Try craigslist. I think it's very good for that .


----------



## James2020

Off topic, but I can't believe this post is 105 pages long!

My 2 cents here, would be that people are allowed to change and especially once you get married your perspective and willingness to do things changes. You are married, you are committed, you don't want to have some random people coming into your bedroom and possibly creating additional issues. It just goes against the whole vision of marriage, at least to the majority of poeple. If this was somethign you were both into initially I could perhaps see it carrying through into your marriage, or if it was something you suddenly were both into. Either way, I find it totally acceptable that someone would be willing to do certain things before marriage, and then became more reserved of exclusive after marriage (at least if it involves other people). There is also the reasoning that, they tried it and they did not liek it... or they liked it then but got over it and it's not fun anymore (take anal for example)... so I think as a loving spouse, you need to give them the respect of moving on with their lives and not having to do things just because they did them before.

A good comparison here could be drugs. I'm sure lots of people have tried lots of different things when they were younger... usually, most people will not do those things again. If my spouse suddenly wanted me to do drugs I likely would be just as against it, no because I don't want to do that with HER but because I simply don't want to do it with ANYONE. Maybe that makes more sense?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

ScarletBegonias said:


> I had problems with sex as a younger woman. Major emotional issues too. I did stupid things and put myself at risk constantly.
> 
> If DH wanted a threesome,in spite of knowing my past issues, he would not be the man for me and wouldn't be the man I thought he was. If he asked for a threesome it wouldn't be about whether or not I'd do it for him...it would create a whole bigger issue to discuss.


I see your point here completely. A "threesome" doesn't seem to me like just another act..at all. I think its more akin to a husband asking his wife for an open marriage. A marriage that includes 3somes IS an open marriage, isn't it? at least a certain type of one.


----------



## Marduk

Let me massively open the kimono and ask for the women's indulgence that are paying attention to this thread.

My wife has a fantasy that she has voiced after we watched an episode of "Modern Family."

Essentially, she'd like for us to meet up at a bar, pretend for us to not know each other, and have me pick her up and take her back to my hotel room.

Now my response to this is:

#1 Awesome! My wife is sharing a fantasy with me and wants it to come true.

#2 She wants us to be "us" but we just don't know each other and are really attracted to each other... Awesome! Sounds like a fun fantasy we can make true and I'm all up for that.

#3 ... Being really honest with myself I now have a bit of a worry that she's fantasizing about having a one night stand and she might let it come true with someone else. But then I think "idiot, she wants to have a ONS with you."

I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


----------



## James2020

marduk said:


> Let me massively open the kimono and ask for the women's indulgence that are paying attention to this thread.
> 
> My wife has a fantasy that she has voiced after we watched an episode of "Modern Family."
> 
> Essentially, she'd like for us to meet up at a bar, pretend for us to not know each other, and have me pick her up and take her back to my hotel room.
> 
> Now my response to this is:
> 
> #1 Awesome! My wife is sharing a fantasy with me and wants it to come true.
> 
> #2 She wants us to be "us" but we just don't know each other and are really attracted to each other... Awesome! Sounds like a fun fantasy we can make true
> 
> #3 ... Being really honest with myself I now have a bit of a worry that she's fantasizing about having a one night stand and she might let it come true with someone else. But then I think "idiot, she wants to have a ONS with you."
> 
> I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


Yes... point #1 and #2 are correct, point #3 you're just freaking yourself out for no reason!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

1 and 2.

It's the classic fantasy scenario given by therapists actually when people want to spice up their sex life. Seems pretty sweet and tame to me.I wouldn't mind it at all if my DH asked that of me,I'd think it was adorable and sexy. But my marriage isn't your marriage so I can't tell you how you should be feeling 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> He knew it all up front. I laid it on the table when we first started talking about dating. He sort of heard things here and there from when we were in high school but he just didn't know why I had issues til I told him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Applaud your honesty. So long as people know the information up front then everyone can make their decisions.

With your example specifically it resonates with me because a threesome is always something I wanted to try and never have been able to. I put myself in the situation of if my fiancé told me she had and liked threesomes in the past but doesn't want to have them with me what would I do. I haven't been faced with that so I don't have an answer on if it would be a deal breaker or not.

My GF isn't into that and has never done it


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> Let me massively open the kimono and ask for the women's indulgence that are paying attention to this thread.
> 
> My wife has a fantasy that she has voiced after we watched an episode of "Modern Family."
> 
> Essentially, she'd like for us to meet up at a bar, pretend for us to not know each other, and have me pick her up and take her back to my hotel room.
> 
> Now my response to this is:
> 
> #1 Awesome! My wife is sharing a fantasy with me and wants it to come true.
> 
> #2 She wants us to be "us" but we just don't know each other and are really attracted to each other... Awesome! Sounds like a fun fantasy we can make true and I'm all up for that.
> 
> #3 ... Being really honest with myself I now have a bit of a worry that she's fantasizing about having a one night stand and she might let it come true with someone else. But then I think "idiot, she wants to have a ONS with you."
> 
> I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


why not ask your wife and see what she says (and how she says it etc.)?


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> 1 and 2.
> 
> It's the classic fantasy scenario given by therapists actually when people want to spice up their sex life. Seems pretty sweet and tame to me.I wouldn't mind it at all if my DH asked that of me,I'd think it was adorable and sexy. But my marriage isn't your marriage so I can't tell you how you should be feeling
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel like I'm an idiot that has been way too trusting in a past relationship, burned by it, and have had past issues triggered that I'm having trouble controlling.

In short, an idiot that has trouble keeping his **** together.


----------



## GTdad

marduk said:


> In short, an idiot that has trouble keeping his **** together.


You and most of the rest of us, I imagine.

We're friends with a couple that periodically do just as you've described. Sounds like fun, and nothing to read too much into. Enjoy!


----------



## Marduk

nuclearnightmare said:


> why not ask your wife and see what she says (and how she says it etc.)?


Because then I'd take a wicked awesome fantasy (and pretty tame by our standards) and just ruin it by being stupid and insecure.

OK, +1 for being open and honest and vulnerable but minus several million for blowing a cool fantasy and shutting her down for others maybe.


----------



## Catherine602

samyeagar said:


> Is it safe to interpret this as you saying you would be more "into", more generally attracted to the laid back one, the one you'd feel more comfortable opening up more fully sexually?


No not open sexually just another date. Let's say I did marry the 2nd man and then found out he expected me to fulfill him by doing acts I tried but did not want to do again. Let's also say That we were otherwise happy with the variety and frequency of sex. 

I think I would feel that he cared more about sex acts for himself and not by my sexual satisfaction. If he tried to convince me that he felt unloved and sexually frustrated I would not believe he was serious. I would ask him how he thought I felt - my loving husband wants to decrease my enjoyment of sex to increase his. thats how I would feel. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

marduk said:


> I feel like I'm an idiot that has been way too trusting in a past relationship, burned by it, and have had past issues triggered that I'm having trouble controlling.
> 
> In short, an idiot that has trouble keeping his **** together.


Sure fire way to ruin one relationship is to bring the baggage from the previous ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

ScarletBegonias said:


> Sure fire way to ruin one relationship is to bring the baggage from the previous ones.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure. 

Got a magic wand to make this one go away?

How about any other ones that I may have (like this one) that I didn't even realize?

My ex did a lot of purposeful damage, and she was good at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> Let me massively open the kimono and ask for the women's indulgence that are paying attention to this thread.
> 
> My wife has a fantasy that she has voiced after we watched an episode of "Modern Family."
> 
> Essentially, she'd like for us to meet up at a bar, pretend for us to not know each other, and have me pick her up and take her back to my hotel room.
> 
> Now my response to this is:
> 
> #1 Awesome! My wife is sharing a fantasy with me and wants it to come true.
> 
> #2 She wants us to be "us" but we just don't know each other and are really attracted to each other... Awesome! Sounds like a fun fantasy we can make true and I'm all up for that.
> 
> #3 ... Being really honest with myself I now have a bit of a worry that she's fantasizing about having a one night stand and she might let it come true with someone else. But then I think "idiot, she wants to have a ONS with you."
> 
> I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


Then you over hear her telling a friend about what you guys did, and how it reminded her of this hot guy who picked her up in a club in Vegas when she was in college...but the good thing is, she hasn't seen him since right?

Not trying to trigger anything, but there are members here who can relate...


----------



## Thundarr

marduk said:


> Let me massively open the kimono and ask for the women's indulgence that are paying attention to this thread.
> 
> My wife has a fantasy that she has voiced after we watched an episode of "Modern Family."
> 
> Essentially, she'd like for us to meet up at a bar, pretend for us to not know each other, and have me pick her up and take her back to my hotel room.
> 
> Now my response to this is:
> 
> #1 Awesome! My wife is sharing a fantasy with me and wants it to come true.
> 
> #2 She wants us to be "us" but we just don't know each other and are really attracted to each other... Awesome! Sounds like a fun fantasy we can make true and I'm all up for that.
> 
> #3 ... Being really honest with myself I now have a bit of a worry that she's fantasizing about having a one night stand and she might let it come true with someone else. But then I think "idiot, she wants to have a ONS with you."
> 
> I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


Stop it marduk. These insecurities are going to be your undoing. They already have been. Think back to the nasty stuff you let her get away with saying to you. Insecurity and 'what if' thinking is why you didn't set boundaries and shut it down.

You're living your life afraid of what may happen and believing that you have to be with someone else you won't be happy. That's not a good approach to life IMO and it's sometimes a self fulfilling prophecy.

That was a funny episode. Clive and Juliana .


----------



## bandit.45

norajane said:


> :nono:
> 
> No, no, pay attention, you must have been far more into that jerk from 10 years ago than you are into your husband. To prove otherwise, you must have a threesome whether either you or your H wants one or not.


HEY!! 


There's only room for one smartass on this thread....ME!


----------



## waylan

You didn't but I posted it to make a point. You quoted me speaking for all men by quoting "From a man's perspective this translates to:"

I am a man and shared my perspective. Hence, "From a man's perspective." Had I said "all men perceive" then your comment would have been valid.




Faithful Wife said:


> Waylan...your other points to me were valid but please find one post of mine where I sound like I am speaking for all women.


----------



## waylan

If your wife decided that she no longer wanted to do anything of a sexual nature with you - kissing including you would be ok with that? I mean she only did previously because she was insecure but now realizes she doesn't enjoy it. That would be totally acceptable? Where do you draw the line?

This post wasn't about threesomes, BJ's or car sex. It was about a spouse lying to her husband about her sexual past and when asking "why not me" getting a non-answer. I don't feel like it is a non-answer.



James2020 said:


> Off topic, but I can't believe this post is 105 pages long!
> 
> My 2 cents here, would be that people are allowed to change and especially once you get married your perspective and willingness to do things changes. You are married, you are committed, you don't want to have some random people coming into your bedroom and possibly creating additional issues. It just goes against the whole vision of marriage, at least to the majority of poeple. If this was somethign you were both into initially I could perhaps see it carrying through into your marriage, or if it was something you suddenly were both into. Either way, I find it totally acceptable that someone would be willing to do certain things before marriage, and then became more reserved of exclusive after marriage (at least if it involves other people). There is also the reasoning that, they tried it and they did not liek it... or they liked it then but got over it and it's not fun anymore (take anal for example)... so I think as a loving spouse, you need to give them the respect of moving on with their lives and not having to do things just because they did them before.
> 
> A good comparison here could be drugs. I'm sure lots of people have tried lots of different things when they were younger... usually, most people will not do those things again. If my spouse suddenly wanted me to do drugs I likely would be just as against it, no because I don't want to do that with HER but because I simply don't want to do it with ANYONE. Maybe that makes more sense?


----------



## waylan

More likely Personal would be your only option. 



Catherine602 said:


> I'll give my take from a very primal level. I don't know Personal or Waylan but going by their last few exchanges. I would be free and explorative with one and not with the other. One I would trust to be able to handle himself materfully and the other I would not trust and see him as a truculent want to be boss fumbler. One I would follow and the other I would set firm boundaries to let him know where his authority ends.
> 
> That's purely gut feelings knowing nothing else about them. Those first impressions would dissipate but they are there. My point is that the more entitled you are or doctrinaire or verbally demanding or angry or petulant the further away you get from drawing what you want. You challenge a woman for sexual control and dominance before she has had a chance to decide if she feels you are capable of the role you covet.
> 
> One of the afore mentioned guys sounds relaxed easy going etc. He also sounds powerful and I wouldn't want to have to negotiate a contract with him. The other guy sounds like a difficult person but easy to prevail over. Find out what makes him see red then hoist the flag. That's what I feel. I don't know why but there you are.
> 
> Maybe relax and let things unfold. Ultimately, you have no control over man or women. People do what they do and it does not always depend on reason or doctrinal truths.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

waylan said:


> More likely Personal would be your only option.


But how do you know what Personal would do? Oh, I see. You identify yourself as the controlling man. Is this an example of the ancient maxim - "know thyself"? Should I congratulate you? :smthumbup:


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> Sure.
> 
> Got a magic wand to make this one go away?
> 
> How about any other ones that I may have (like this one) that I didn't even realize?
> 
> My ex did a lot of purposeful damage, and she was good at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe you would feel better if you got some revenge on your ex....


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> I have nothing to worry about and just being stupid, right?


Right. Go have fun!!!!!


----------



## Marduk

nuclearnightmare said:


> Maybe you would feel better if you got some revenge on your ex....


Oh, I did that in spades, trust me.


----------



## larry.gray

Thundarr said:


> Try craigslist. I think it's very good for that .


Um... no

Is that in relation to this story in the news yesterday?

An Absolutely Horrifying Craigslist Murder -- NYMag

Dude seeks a man to join them in a threesome; both GF and BF end up dead.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you think that development over time is possible? The trust that grew into our very satisfying, no holds barred sex life, grew out of his NOT thinking he "deserved" things from me in and out of the bedroom and vice versa. I did not "deserve" that he fit my model of what a husband was. I did not "deserve" a provider. I did not "deserve"... anything. And neither did we. He did not WANT any acts that was not in the context of a MUTUALLY satisfying sex life. I got married in my early 20s after being raised Catholic and all that that applies. Had my husband thought he "deserved" a menu of his choosing of acts instead of having the view that we get to develop our sexual relationship together, we would be divorced now. Instead we are screwing like bunnies 20 years into our marriage.
> 
> What did the bf get? A scared woman waiting for it to be done. Then shortly dumped. I am sure that was great for him. Thankfully, my husband would never do that.


Since you go berserk on the word 'deserve' I get that something is wrong in the communication. Sorry if I use the word wrong.

I meant that he seems to deserve your loving actions, including BJ's on the basis of your description of how good a guy he is. 

I think this nice guy should not be withheld that because you can, and the bad guy given it because he demanded it.

You have every legal right to do as you please in your relation (except withholding sex at all I believe).

I have every moral right to say he deserves/'may have' better.


----------



## waylan

Catherine602 said:


> But how do you know what Personal would do? Oh, I see. You identify yourself as the controlling man. Is this an example of the ancient maxim - "know thyself"? Should I congratulate you? :smthumbup:


I stand corrected. Neither of us would be likely be an option for you. :smthumbup:

I'm also not even close to having a controlling personality. Of course you already know what I'm all about from a few anonymous message board posts. My guess is you are projecting your own personalities unto me. There is a saying - The honest man doesn't usually worry about being ripped off - but the thief is constantly worried about being stolen from.....


----------



## waylan

Personal said:


> Exactly!
> 
> If a partner in a sexual relationship feels entitled to sexual favour, they are expecting subservience from their partner.
> 
> Shared sex with the willing, is the best sex!


I agree that willing sex is the best sex. I'll go further and say that willing sex should be the only sex that a couple should have. I believe married individuals (both partners) are entitled to sex and affection from their spouse however. That is a critical component of marriage - otherwise you are really just roommates.

To me this discussion hasn't ever really been about the physical act. I just can't fathom not doing something that I did with past women with my wife if it was important to her and brought her joy without good reason. (Threesome would be one of the few things i would veto - for obvious reasons.) 

I think if you focus on your spouse's needs more then you do your own - that good things will happen. Worked for me for 25 years and counting.


----------



## john117

Only if your spouse focuses on their needs LESS than they focus on NOT meeting your needs.


----------



## James2020

waylan said:


> If your wife decided that she no longer wanted to do anything of a sexual nature with you - kissing including you would be ok with that? I mean she only did previously because she was insecure but now realizes she doesn't enjoy it. That would be totally acceptable? Where do you draw the line?
> 
> This post wasn't about threesomes, BJ's or car sex. It was about a spouse lying to her husband about her sexual past and when asking "why not me" getting a non-answer. I don't feel like it is a non-answer.


You're presenting your point incorrectly I think. The basis, or "the line" in my mind, is where you and your spouse were at when you met and early in your marriage etc. Probably add to that the normal, average, expected intimacy level that is common across other marriages. So if you met, got married, and NEVER kissed or did anything sexual... then you know what, it's rather foolish of you to expect your spouse to suddenly become sexual years into your marriage.

Just the same, discovering these sexual acts your spouse did way back in the day.... well you know what, when you met you never did that sort of thing and you were never into it. Now that you learned about them, you are jealous and expect them to be a person they were 10+ years ago, not the person they were when you fell in love and got married. That is also an unreasonable expectation.


----------



## Marduk

James2020 said:


> You're presenting your point incorrectly I think. The basis, or "the line" in my mind, is where you and your spouse were at when you met and early in your marriage etc. Probably add to that the normal, average, expected intimacy level that is common across other marriages. So if you met, got married, and NEVER kissed or did anything sexual... then you know what, it's rather foolish of you to expect your spouse to suddenly become sexual years into your marriage.
> 
> Just the same, discovering these sexual acts your spouse did way back in the day.... well you know what, when you met you never did that sort of thing and you were never into it. Now that you learned about them, you are jealous and expect them to be a person they were 10+ years ago, not the person they were when you fell in love and got married. That is also an unreasonable expectation.


Well... _yes_... but...

All my stupid insecurities aside...

I'd wonder if she did something in the past with other people but not with me was because of some dynamic in our relationship that was causing a blockage of sexual exploration in this area.

We all fall into ruts, and we all present ourselves differently with different people. There might be something there that both people may be willing to explore if the context or conditions were different, and there might be work and understanding to set the context or conditions correctly to allow for it.

You know what I mean? Like a missed opportunity because we're locked in certain roles or expectations of each other?


----------



## Catherine602

waylan said:


> I stand corrected. Neither of us would be likely be an option for you. :smthumbup:
> 
> I'm also not even close to having a controlling personality. Of course you already know what I'm all about from a few anonymous message board posts. My guess is you are projecting your own personalities unto me. There is a saying - The honest man doesn't usually worry about being ripped off - but the thief is constantly worried about being stolen from.....


Sorry I interpreted your description of how you approached your wife as controlling. My mistake. BTW what would you call it? 

At any rate, your wife is not cooperating, right. Why don't you try relaxing. Showing frustration and anger does not work. Would it hurt to try gentle persuasion and inspiration? You don't lose your sense of power you gain it. With success comes a feeling of power and mastery. Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## homedepot

nuclearnightmare said:


> can you acheive intimacy without knowing some important things about your partner's past?




Yes you can. I am sure most of us has kept one or two things to themselves. I doubt my wife wouldn't tell me that she slept with a woman or sum sh*t like that. There are things that we find out about others that change everything. 

Not to many men on here would like to hear that the woman there falling in love with did a few "Glory Holes" or participated in a Bukkake.


----------



## treyvion

homedepot said:


> Yes you can. I am sure most of us has kept one or two things to themselves. I doubt my wife wouldn't tell me that she slept with a woman or sum sh*t like that. There are things that we find out about others that change everything.
> 
> Not to many men on here would like to hear that the woman there falling in love with did a few "Glory Holes" or participated in a Bukkake.


"But I love her..."


----------



## NobodySpecial

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since you go berserk on the word 'deserve' I get that something is wrong in the communication. Sorry if I use the word wrong.


I went berserk? :scratchhead:



> I meant that he seems to deserve your loving actions, including BJ's on the basis of your description of how good a guy he is.
> 
> I think this nice guy should not be withheld that because you can, and the bad guy given it because he demanded it.
> 
> You have every legal right to do as you please in your relation (except withholding sex at all I believe).
> 
> I have every moral right to say he deserves/'may have' better.


That's the thing. DH does not think of sex as something *I* GIVE him. He thinks of it as something we do with each other, together. He does not want to "get" stuff off me. He wants to be with me.

And what an ROI he has gotten.


----------



## Thor

homedepot said:


> Yes you can. I am sure most of us has kept one or two things to themselves. I doubt my wife wouldn't tell me that she slept with a woman or sum sh*t like that. There are things that we find out about others that change everything.
> 
> Not to many men on here would like to hear that the woman there falling in love with did a few "Glory Holes" or participated in a Bukkake.


That is a false or incomplete intimacy. You cannot be fully intimate if you do not fully know your partner. Your partner cannot be fully intimate if he/she is hiding important information. There will be a wall there which the hiding partner erects and which the other partner may not even know is there.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> That is a false or incomplete intimacy. You cannot be fully intimate if you do not fully know your partner. Your partner cannot be fully intimate if he/she is hiding important information. There will be a wall there which the hiding partner erects and which the other partner may not even know is there.


I don't agree. Sometimes someone wants to give all themselves to you, due to base raw attraction. They don't have to know much about you other than you light them up.


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## jaharthur

treyvion said:


> I don't agree. Sometimes someone wants to give all themselves to you, due to base raw attraction. They don't have to know much about you other than you light them up.


I think what Thor is saying that by definition in that circumstance the partner has NOT given everything to you.


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## treyvion

jaharthur said:


> I think what Thor is saying that by definition in that circumstance the partner has NOT given everything to you.


Well in that case I agree with thor.


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## nuclearnightmare

I think by definition intimacy means revealing all of ones self to the other, which none of us achieve 100%. It might be though that satisfaction with a relationship can be had well short of full intimacy. Maybe that is what some people are talking about. I'd have to think on that one.


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## Thor

To me, intimacy involves knowing the true heart and soul of someone, and they know it of you. There are no walls or false pretenses.

If facts or beliefs are withheld from our spouse in order to control their perception of us, thereby creating a somewhat false picture of who we really are, there is not a true intimacy. Furthermore, that wall always creates distance even when not dealing with the specific issue where we created the false knowledge. If we withhold ourselves as part of our style of relationship, we are always considering how much to reveal.

And we always have a lurking fear of our spouse finding out the truth. What if she finds out he used to do cocaine, and a few times he banged prostitutes? What if he finds out she did a train or two at frat houses in college?

We cannot be our true and fully open selves if we have hidden things which reveal something different than we have pretended to be.

Perhaps we learned and grew since the prostitutes or frat trains. That, too, is an important part of us! We would be hiding this admirable aspect of ourselves, too, by hiding the original events.


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## john117

Thor, I know every last neuron and synapse in my wife's brain and she is not the person to ponder what her Machiavelli of a husband is plotting... Besides she knows everything so... She knows enough of me and assumes the rest.

I don't see how knowing the other person alone very well helps. Knowing and using the knowledge to mutual good, yes.


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## Thor

john117 said:


> I don't see how knowing the other person alone very well helps. Knowing and using the knowledge to mutual good, yes.


But not accurately knowing the other person prevents being able to best be a partner to that person.

Also, the one who hides information is keeping their spouse at arm's length. Even if the spouse doesn't know they are being held away, they are being held away. 

Finally, the person who is hiding something is always on some level uneasy about the possibility of it being discovered. If the information comes out at the beginning and then is put away, the lurking anxieties are also put away. The hider can release the worries and can be himself/herself in the relationship.


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## john117

Assuming the person cares about te information, yes.

Does my wife care I grew up without a car? Dirt poor? While she was being chauffeured in a government limo? 

Does she care about stuff I did 40 years ago when I was 15? That I studied the writings of Proust, Bukowski, and the like? 

Does she care? 

Does she have the inclination to use this information to make inferences ? (Oh honey I remember you were an avid model airplane fan growing up. Would you like a $1200 heavy duty drone to spy on our neighbors?)

Few people have the mental bandwidth to use what they know about other people. 

Even if it's less than desirable stuff. Should she care I read Bukowski while near drunk (free wine - pick your parents carefully ) as a teenager? That my HS way to celebrate 17 was to get your national if and watch a hardcore feature film with your 17+ friends?


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## Catherine602

It takes years to really get to know a person. At lest 2 yrs to see how they react various people and situations. Most people don't hide intentionally, they may think that getting someone to love will allow them to put some bad things behind and embrace a new life. 

Men and women should really understand each other better. We commit the same errors but we are apt to think of ourselves as a victim of fraud. Women don't lie to men anymore than men lie to women. We lie about different things.

The man who hides the fact that he watches porn and maturates gets irate when he discovers that his wife never liked bj and stops. He is just as deceptive but his wife deception is more egregious. Or is it?


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## Thor

john117 said:


> Assuming the person cares about te information, yes.
> 
> Does my wife care I grew up without a car? Dirt poor? While she was being chauffeured in a government limo?
> 
> Does she care about stuff I did 40 years ago when I was 15? That I studied the writings of Proust, Bukowski, and the like?
> 
> Does she care?
> 
> Does she have the inclination to use this information to make inferences ? (Oh honey I remember you were an avid model airplane fan growing up. Would you like a $1200 heavy duty drone to spy on our neighbors?)
> 
> Few people have the mental bandwidth to use what they know about other people.
> 
> Even if it's less than desirable stuff. Should she care I read Bukowski while near drunk (free wine - pick your parents carefully ) as a teenager? That my HS way to celebrate 17 was to get your national if and watch a hardcore feature film with your 17+ friends?


Ahh, but what if you hid the fact you were dirt poor, and intentionally led your wife to believe you grew up in a more affluent family? That is the issue, not whether she knows every book you read. What if you led her to believe you were an avid reader of Shakespeare and classic novels, when in real life you never read any of those?

Wouldn't she have a distorted picture of the real you? She may not use any of that information in a direct way, such as presenting you with a complete set of Shakespeare's works, but she would have an image of you which was not accurate.

And, possibly the most important factor, you would have to guard this misinformation from discovery. What if one night you're with some friends and somebody mentions Shakespeare? You will be worried that your wife will say something and you might have to pretend you know something about Hamlet. Or, you forgot you said you read Shakespeare, leading to an odd moment where you have to fake it. You are not able to be your true self. And your wife doesn't know the true you.

While this is a mild example, someone who hides important information will create a false image which creates a significant and permanent wall between partners.


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## samyeagar

Thor said:


> Ahh, but what if you hid the fact you were dirt poor, and intentionally led your wife to believe you grew up in a more affluent family? That is the issue, not whether she knows every book you read. What if you led her to believe you were an avid reader of Shakespeare and classic novels, when in real life you never read any of those?
> 
> Wouldn't she have a distorted picture of the real you? She may not use any of that information in a direct way, such as presenting you with a complete set of Shakespeare's works, but she would have an image of you which was not accurate.
> 
> *And, possibly the most important factor, you would have to guard this misinformation from discovery. What if one night you're with some friends and somebody mentions Shakespeare? You will be worried that your wife will say something and you might have to pretend you know something about Hamlet. Or, you forgot you said you read Shakespeare, leading to an odd moment where you have to fake it. You are not able to be your true self. And your wife doesn't know the true you*.
> 
> While this is a mild example, someone who hides important information will create a false image which creates a significant and permanent wall between partners.


This is sort of along the lines of something that happened with my wife and I. Early on when we were getting to know each other, my wife and I talked about a lot of things including sex...general things like frequency, oral, anal, kink...stuff like that. I let her know I was not really into toys at all. I didn't really enjoy them. Didn't really go into it beyond that.

A while after we started dating, after we were engaged in fact, she decided to become a Pure Romance consultant, selling toys, lotions, all that. She was pretty excited and saw a bunch of things she wanted to try out together as she had never really used any toys beyond a simple vib, and then sparingly and never with a partner.

One night, when we were going through the catalog and she was asking what I thought about different things, I had to be very careful in what I said. I still let her know that I had no real desire to use the toys. The next day, after thinking about it a lot, I finally decided it would be best if I opened up rather than risk things accidentally coming up, questions being asked. 

My ex wife's best friend was also a long time Pure Romance Consultant, and my ex-wife and I were sort of a guinea pig couple for her...we had used pretty much the entire catalog together, so I knew quite a lot about all the toys, lubes, lotions, all that. See, my wife is a smart woman and is very perceptive, and she would pick up on it if I let even a little bit of knowledge slip about the products, she would wonder just how I knew the things I knew. There was also the slight risk of my wife running into the friend at conventions and such as well.

I felt it best to just be up front and let her know rather than risk a very awkward situation. It hit he pretty hard finding out that I had done all those things, used all those things with my ex, and had no desire to use them with her...


----------



## larry.gray

Thor said:


> Ahh, but what if you hid the fact you were dirt poor, and intentionally led your wife to believe you grew up in a more affluent family?


My ex-sis-inlaw went through that to a degree. She married the son of the owner of a large business. What she didn't know that the business was in trouble - a LOT of trouble. And son / new hubby spent more than he saved.

When the business went under 3 years into the marriage they went from a mansion with servants to living in a TINY apartment, with her earning more than hubby because he never had a job other than working for dad.

Last I heard, they were still together, but that was 10 years ago.


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## waylan

Maybe you have the wrong poster - my wife does anything and everything for me. Now no marriage is perfect - and I have some issues around finances, etc. But I have *zero* complaints in the bedroom. 

She told me her philosophy was if I got what I wanted at home I'd never have an excuse to cheat. You know - I've never been tempted - even when ladies at work have offered themselves up.

My comment was purely hypothetical - I just don't understand how someone deeply in love could be so hurtful emotionally to their spouse. I know if there was something that I loved and was denied by my wife - and then found out she did it regularly and enjoyed it with an ex - Then I would be hurt. (Not withstanding a good and plausible reason.



Catherine602 said:


> Sorry I interpreted your description of how you approached your wife as controlling. My mistake. BTW what would you call it?
> 
> At any rate, your wife is not cooperating, right. Why don't you try relaxing. Showing frustration and anger does not work. Would it hurt to try gentle persuasion and inspiration? You don't lose your sense of power you gain it. With success comes a feeling of power and mastery. Just a thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waylan

I wasn't really into toys either - but man oh man after the reaction I got with right toy.....  Sometimes doing something you are thrilled about pays great dividends... :smthumbup:

My opinion is people focus too much on their needs/wants and not enough on their spouses.



samyeagar said:


> This is sort of along the lines of something that happened with my wife and I. Early on when we were getting to know each other, my wife and I talked about a lot of things including sex...general things like frequency, oral, anal, kink...stuff like that. I let her know I was not really into toys at all. I didn't really enjoy them. Didn't really go into it beyond that.
> 
> A while after we started dating, after we were engaged in fact, she decided to become a Pure Romance consultant, selling toys, lotions, all that. She was pretty excited and saw a bunch of things she wanted to try out together as she had never really used any toys beyond a simple vib, and then sparingly and never with a partner.
> 
> One night, when we were going through the catalog and she was asking what I thought about different things, I had to be very careful in what I said. I still let her know that I had no real desire to use the toys. The next day, after thinking about it a lot, I finally decided it would be best if I opened up rather than risk things accidentally coming up, questions being asked.
> 
> My ex wife's best friend was also a long time Pure Romance Consultant, and my ex-wife and I were sort of a guinea pig couple for her...we had used pretty much the entire catalog together, so I knew quite a lot about all the toys, lubes, lotions, all that. See, my wife is a smart woman and is very perceptive, and she would pick up on it if I let even a little bit of knowledge slip about the products, she would wonder just how I knew the things I knew. There was also the slight risk of my wife running into the friend at conventions and such as well.
> 
> I felt it best to just be up front and let her know rather than risk a very awkward situation. It hit he pretty hard finding out that I had done all those things, used all those things with my ex, and had no desire to use them with her...


----------



## Catherine602

Sam can you tell us how your wife reacted to your revelation? Did she get upset that you were tried every toy out with your ex but would not with her? You told her you did not like toys but didn't give her details. Using the logic of some poster on its thread, you were obliged to tell her the details so that she would know you. 

Also you loved and valued your ex more than you wife. Your wife would also know that toys were absolutely out of the question. If toys were important to her, she could decide whether to marry you. She would otherwise never to have the pleasure toys again. You will not give her what you gladly gave to your ex. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

I am fortunate to have several very nice guitars. Some acoustic, some electric. Each inspires me differently. I will pick one up and start playing, and just gravitate towards one style. Then I put it down and pick up a different guitar, and suddenly I am playing a different genre of music.

The Hamer Newport Pro is pretty versatile, but I prefer blues and classic rock on it. I've played some jazz, but jazz doesn't really excite me.

The Adamas 2080 is outstanding for acoustic, acoustic rock, and 70's singer/songwriter styles. The responsiveness to touch and the tonal range are astounding.

The Ovation Viper shines in country or blues with those big single coil pickups.

Now I would play country on the Hamer if asked. And the Viper could do singer/songwriter but it isn't really in the expected sound of that genre. I could play Led Zep on the Adamas but it might not thrill the audience. 

Sure I have my preferences on what is most enjoyable to play on each guitar, but I do enjoy playing each guitar. I'm not going to refuse to play a song I've enjoyed playing in the past just because the guitar isn't the same.

Please, though, don't ask me to play hip-hop or rap on any guitar.


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## john117

Two names - Robert Fripp and Phil Manzanera... Look up "starless" by King Crimson on YouTube for Fripp and anything you can find on Manzanera....

Good stuff !!


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## Thor

Kaki King. Check her out.


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## Catherine602

Ginny Don't be upset about that. It's a fact of life. Everyones meets more than one person they would be comparable with. The relationship would be different with each one. 

There are no guarantees that any relationship will last for a lifetime. One person will leave before the other, illness, death or relationship demise. To think that it will never end would be naive; to have no plan in place is reckless. 

Autonomy and the ability to take care of yourself and the those who depend on you is paramount. You value most what you stand to lose. The spark of another person may not be so bright when you need to give serious consideration to losing the one to whom you are committed and your family along with them. Don't let your partner be too sure of you.


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## Thundarr

Is it really that hard to communicate (rhetorical)? I'm quite certain my wife knows the type of things I wanted to know about from her past based on our discussions. I'm sure I told her more than she wanted to hear but I figured out she didn't want to know some things.

So 2 decades later, I don't want any surprises and we've been together long enough that there had better not be any. Me learning something now that I should have learned years back would be a loss for her. A loss of my respect for her as a person.

My suggestion to women with secrets about your past. If you've kept for years or decades of marriage then you need to take it to your grave. And by grave I mean grave. None of that easing the consciounce crap at the last minute. That's the absolute worst time.


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## See_Listen_Love

samyeagar said:


> This is sort of along the lines of something that happened with my wife and I. * Early on* when we were getting to know each other, my wife and I talked about a lot of things including sex...general things like frequency, oral, anal, kink...stuff like that. I let her know I was not really into toys at all. I didn't really enjoy them. Didn't really go into it beyond that.
> 
> .....
> 
> 
> I felt it best to just be up front and let her know rather than risk a very awkward situation. It hit he pretty hard finding out that I had done all those things, used all those things with my ex, and had no desire to use them with her...


Like Catharine asked, can you explain this, it's a somewhat more innocent subject, but still of the same structure. 

It hit her hard, I understand that, so why did you not communicate about that - upfront, so really upfront like the other stuff?


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## Marduk

GinnyTonia said:


> Now I will say that I have had a bonfire experience with someone. The timing wasn't right and I'm afraid that our dysfunction may have contributed to the passion. However I really want to believe that I can share at least most of that fire, desire, and chemistry with someone who is emotionally stable in my future. I wouldn't want to feel bored with the love of my life and be wishing for him to be like/do it like a previous lover.
> Would the love of my life necessarily make me feel like my exbf did? If he doesn't, would that mean that I, he, or both of us would be settling?
> 
> Fwiw, nothing I've done in my past sexually is off the table for my current bf.


I used to think this way. It's why I dated crazy b!tchy chicks a lot... the sex was freaking insane.

But they were crazy, and it always burnt itself out right away. That kind of thing couldn't be sustained.

Or so I thought.

I managed to inject most of that crazy sexual passion back into our marriage in the past few years... and our relationship is still pretty stable.


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## Marduk

GinnyTonia said:


> Don't let your partner be too sure of you.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand.
Click to expand...

My take is that you need the relationship be safe enough to be intimate, but surprising enough to be exciting.

In our marriage, even me being 99% as expected and 1% surprising is enough. I try to take her to places she doesn't expect, try things in the sack she doesn't expect, even putting on different music sometimes is enough.


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## samyeagar

As I said, early on, before we started dating, when we were still in the getting to know each other phase, we talked about tons of things including sex. She was the one who brought up sex toys, and had asked me what my feelings on them were. I was completely honest and said I really didn't enjoy them. She agreed that she really didn't either, and only had the one vib, didn't use it that often, preferred her hands, and had never used it with a partner. We were on the same page, so I didn't feel any need to expand.

Let's not forget the main premise of this thread...things done and ENJOYED with another partner, that the current partner has a desire to try, knows they were done and enjoyed, but are refused with them. That is the scenario...not cases where it was tried and not liked, or current partner has no desire to try something done in the past or something like that.

When my wife became a consultant, or course she wanted to go through the catalog with me, and she saw things she wanted to try. Again, I had ZERO desire to use them. For the record, I had ZERO desire to use them with my ex wife either.

As we were going through the catalog, and looking at the demo toys, she was asking all kinds of questions about them, questions that I knew the answers to, and so I was faced with either playing dumb, or showing that I knew a bit about them. My wife is not stupid, and is very perceptive. She would have picked up on the fact that I knew a bit more than just stuff picked up in passing. I decided that it would be better to just lay it out than to try and pretend.

Back to when we were getting to know each other, talking about sex, the general things came up...ever had an std, oral, anal, frequency, general "experience" level, things like that along with toys. We were pretty much spot on on the same page. She made it pretty clear many times that she didn't have a problem knowing details of my past because there wasn't anything she could think of that would bother her, or cause her any problems. Unknown to me, she had created her own vision of my sex life based on her own assumptions of what we had talked about. Pretty plain, vanilla, average. I had only been with two other women in my life, and hadn't had a bj in 20 years, sexless for the last four years, didn't have any interest in anal, and didn't like toys.

Until this point, I had NOT gone into any details, and unless my wife and ex wife had a sit down to talk about me in bed, considering the only other woman I had been with is dead, and I have never been one to kiss and tell, there is virtually no way any details could be spilled unless they came directly from me.

When I started the conversation about the toys, I gave her every opportunity to not talk about it, but she had already picked up on something just from when we were looking through the catalog, so I told her everything. That I had experience with pretty much everything in the catalog, she asked what I liked, didn't like, so I told her. Gave her my opinions on things. I also let her know, reiterated the fact that I had felt pressured, forced into trying things with my ex, and really had no desire even then.

We had several recurring conversations about all of this over the following week or so. The thing that upset her the most was her own assumptions about my past sex life. She felt stupid because she knew how I was for her in bed, and felt she should have realized that it was no accident that I could do the things I did, knew the things I did, made her feel the way I did, and that I had almost certainly made my ex wife feel the same way. I was by far the best she had ever had in bed and she had just kind of blocked the thought that I was likely someone else best too. That was the beginning of her thoughts going to a million not so good places all at once. Envisioning my wild, kinky, sex life with my ex, the tight bodied yoga instructor, when we are pretty vanilla.

The other thing that hit my wife pretty hard was the fact that I HAD done all those things with my ex wife, and made it pretty clear that I had no desire to try them with her. It made her feel rejected, that I didn't find her as desirable as my ex, as attractive as my ex. In short, she felt that I didn't want her as much as I wanted my ex.

We are fine now regarding all of this, but it did take some lengthy conversations to reach the understanding that we have now. We have tried using various toys, and there were a few bumpy spots where we tried using some of the toys. She loved it the moment, while we were doing it, but when she realized my body simply didn't respond, that the same passion was not there, the same thoughts and feelings, mind movies came back to her.

I still don't like using them, no real desire at all, does nothing for me, but it is something she enjoys, and so it is something I do for her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Catherine602 said:


> Sam can you tell us how your wife reacted to your revelation? Did she get upset that you were tried every toy out with your ex but would not with her? You told her you did not like toys but didn't give her details. Using the logic of some poster on its thread, you were obliged to tell her the details so that she would know you.


I don't think he needs to give the details on how the different toys were specifically used (nor should a woman), but he does owe her the details about why he does not want to use toys with her now.



> Also you loved and valued your ex more than you wife. Your wife would also know that toys were absolutely out of the question. If toys were important to her, she could decide whether to marry you. She would otherwise never to have the pleasure toys again. You will not give her what you gladly gave to your ex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That could be the case. If he refuses to say anything more than "because", he can't expect to her to not draw her own conclusions, whatever those might be.


----------



## samyeagar

Also, another reason it hit her so hard is that she admittedly felt like she was in a sexually superior position because of her past vs mine, and that feeling was challenged.

The next several parties were difficult for her because as she was giving the demonstrations, she said all she could picture was me and my ex wife, and even now, the mood has to be just right for her to want to use them.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

samyeagar said:


> I still don't like using them, no real desire at all, does nothing for me, but it is something she enjoys, and so it is something I do for her.


It's a simple concept, isn't it? It's what marriage is all about in intimacy and beyond. This is more applicable to natural give and take where the H may love one act that the W doesn't care for while the wife likes a different tact that her H doesn't care for. In a healthy marriage, you have 2 choices: Compromise where both sex acts are engaged in from time to time or Eliminate both acts because one spouse is less enthused. I see the former choice as a demonstration of love and compromise while the latter is unyielding and stubborn. To me, it seems like the best play is to do something for your spouse to make him/her happy even if you don't get the same enjoyment out of it. This assumes that we're talking about activities that would not involve pain, affect health negatively or involve an outsider. 

I don't see why this can't apply to the subject matter of this thread. If the act was something that a spouse used to do for others, enjoyed doing and it doesn't involve pain, affecting health in a negative way and does not involve any outsiders, then why is it refused to the spouse?


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## Bobby5000

I think the test is as follows. 

First, if any acts involve infidelity, that ends with a marriage. No other people, etc, for any reason. 

That aside, I can understand how a man feels about getting less than the other men. Imagine if a man said, while I was going out, I took women to dinner and show at some of the best places, weekends in Paris or Caan, and I now realize that this was shallow and just surface. Now I feel just as comfortable going Dutch with a dinner at McDonald's.


----------



## norajane

Bobby5000 said:


> I think the test is as follows.
> 
> First, if any acts involve infidelity, that ends with a marriage. No other people, etc, for any reason.
> 
> That aside, I can understand how a man feels about getting less than the other men. Imagine if a man said, while I was going out, I took women to dinner and show at some of the best places, weekends in Paris or Caan, and I now realize that this was shallow and just surface. Now I feel just as comfortable going Dutch with a dinner at McDonald's.


If I were happy going Dutch and to McDonald's enough to have _married _the guy, then I'm likely more comfortable with that and don't pine for weekends in Paris. Otherwise, I wouldn't have married the guy, right? Why would I? Paris girl wouldn't be happy with a steady diet of McD's and would have moved on after a few weeks instead of _marrying _McD guy.

I see it the same way for sex. If the guy was happy with his sex life the way it was, enough to marry the woman, _then he was happy with their sex life as it was_. If he was happy with his sex life, then he wasn't unhappy that they weren't doing certain things together. If he wasn't bothered about it all that time, then why suddenly be all bothered about it? 

Unless you're saying guys marry women despite not being satisfied with their sex lives as they are at the time of marriage. I guess some men do.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

norajane said:


> Unless you're saying guys marry women despite not being satisfied with their sex lives as they are at the time of marriage. I guess some men do.


From what I've read on TAM and seen IRL, this is not gender specific. It also happens in many more areas of the marriage than intimacy too. We've seen women marry irresponsible men, thinking that in time they will become more responsible. Or someone marries another person without having that sexual attraction because "he/she" would make a good spouse because of these other traits, and that the sexual attraction can come later.


----------



## norajane

Plan 9 from OS said:


> From what I've read on TAM and seen IRL, this is not gender specific. It also happens in many more areas of the marriage than intimacy too. We've seen women marry irresponsible men, thinking that in time they will become more responsible. Or someone marries another person without having that sexual attraction because "he/she" would make a good spouse because of these other traits, and that the sexual attraction can come later.


You're right that it's not gender specific. All I can say is you reap what you sow and would say they're asking for problems if they do that.

But if a couple had been content, then don't let something like past acts create discontent when it wasn't any kind of issue before.


----------



## I Don't Know

GinnyTonia said:


> Social media annoys me sometimes. Came across this unattributed quote on my feed. It was very discouraging at first, then it made me mad that people are circulating it.
> 
> View attachment 27266
> 
> 
> Now I will say that I have had a bonfire experience with someone. The timing wasn't right and I'm afraid that our dysfunction may have contributed to the passion. However I really want to believe that I can share at least most of that fire, desire, and chemistry with someone who is emotionally stable in my future. I wouldn't want to feel bored with the love of my life and be wishing for him to be like/do it like a previous lover.
> Would the love of my life necessarily make me feel like my exbf did? If he doesn't, would that mean that I, he, or both of us would be settling?
> 
> Fwiw, nothing I've done in my past sexually is off the table for my current bf.


Can you imagine being the SO of someone who shared that? Even if you actually feel that way why on earth would you want your "special" someone to know that they are at best your second choice? And if someone posts this while single, these things have a way of coming back up. 

I'd say the love of your life should burn brighter than any before. Otherwise are they really the love of your life or was the other guy (or girl)?

Not even sure I believe what I'm saying here. Ideally, I guess I do. I know it's true for me.


----------



## treyvion

norajane said:


> If I were happy going Dutch and to McDonald's enough to have _married _the guy, then I'm likely more comfortable with that and don't pine for weekends in Paris. Otherwise, I wouldn't have married the guy, right? Why would I? Paris girl wouldn't be happy with a steady diet of McD's and would have moved on after a few weeks instead of _marrying _McD guy.
> 
> I see it the same way for sex. If the guy was happy with his sex life the way it was, enough to marry the woman, _then he was happy with their sex life as it was_. If he was happy with his sex life, then he wasn't unhappy that they weren't doing certain things together. If he wasn't bothered about it all that time, then why suddenly be all bothered about it?
> 
> Unless you're saying guys marry women despite not being satisfied with their sex lives as they are at the time of marriage. I guess some men do.


Some people don't consummate the relationship until after they are married. So they couldn't have known.

The worst mistake is to have a sex life before and not to be happy at all with it and marry them anyway.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

norajane said:


> You're right that it's not gender specific. All I can say is you reap what you sow and would say they're asking for problems if they do that.
> 
> But if a couple had been content, then don't let something like past acts create discontent when it wasn't any kind of issue before.


Marriages shouldn't be in a static condition either. Maybe there are husbands and wives who were pretty vanilla in their sexual tastes when they were first married and over time they want to explore intimacy with their spouse. I think that's a reasonable and valid desire to have with someone you are spending the rest of your life with. The problem I see in this thread is that every honest question can be turned around. You ask why would a man elect to become unreasonable and rock a boat that has been sailing smoothly for years? It's equally valid to ask why would a woman choose to throw the anchor overboard instead of maintaining a smoothly sailing ship?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

norajane said:


> I see it the same way for sex. If the guy was happy with his sex life the way it was, enough to marry the woman, _then he was happy with their sex life as it was_. If he was happy with his sex life, then he wasn't unhappy that they weren't doing certain things together. If he wasn't bothered about it all that time, then why suddenly be all bothered about it?


Who said he was not previously bothered? 

One can be bothered about many things at many different levels. We balance those across a lot of things when choosing a spouse. For most things that a person judges as important in a marriage, we want to feel like our spouse to be giving us the best they are able to give. When they don't, without explanation, that causes issues.


----------



## norajane

Tall Average Guy said:


> Who said he was not previously bothered?


Because it hadn't been an issue before. Because he happily proposed and married without those acts. Becasue they never did those things together and were happy with their sex lives.



> One can be bothered about many things at many different levels. We balance those across a lot of things when choosing a spouse. For most things that a person judges as important in a marriage, we want to feel like our spouse to be giving us the best they are able to give. When they don't, without explanation, that causes issues.


They could very well be giving their best. It's that their best no longer includes things they don't want to do anymore.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

norajane said:


> Because it hadn't been an issue before. Because he happily proposed and married without those acts. Becasue they never did those things together and were happy with their sex lives.


That does not mean he (or she) was not bothered by it. It means that not having those things was not a deal breaker.



> They could very well be giving their best. It's that their best no longer includes things they don't want to do anymore.


Absolutely. But if you don't explain why, you can't expect your spouse to not draw their own conclusions.


----------



## norajane

Tall Average Guy said:


> Absolutely. But if you don't explain why, you can't expect your spouse to not draw their own conclusions.


I agree with you, but yeah, I'm still not buying that there are all these people who won't explain why. We don't have anyone on this thread saying they are a victim of this (except OP, who wasn't entirely clear on his story and I'm not sure he wasn't a troll).


----------



## Tall Average Guy

norajane said:


> I agree with you, but yeah, I'm still not buying that there are all these people who won't explain why. We don't have anyone on this thread saying they are a victim of this (except OP, who wasn't entirely clear on his story and I'm not sure he wasn't a troll).


My sense is that those who won't explain will say that they just don't want to any more or aren't that person. That is an explanation that is not really an explanation.

I would hope it would be the very few that would do that. But people are surprising (for good and bad).


----------



## Catherine602

You said that you were uncomfortable so why can't your wife let them go? They make you uncomfortable and being a supplier is a reminder of your wifes insecurities. This for orgasms from a toy in an otherwise great sex life. 

I'm not dismissing her feelings, I think one of the most important thing in an intimate relationship is to make the feelings of your partner your problems too. Considering both of you, cutting out the sex toy activity altogether would be the only sensible thing to do.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

samyeagar said:


> We had several recurring conversations about all of this over the following week or so. The thing that upset her the most was her own assumptions about my past sex life. She felt stupid because she knew how I was for her in bed, and felt she should have realized that it was no accident that I could do the things I did, knew the things I did, made her feel the way I did, and that I had almost certainly made my ex wife feel the same way. I was by far the best she had ever had in bed and she had just kind of blocked the thought that I was likely someone else best too. That was the beginning of her thoughts going to a million not so good places all at once. Envisioning my wild, kinky, sex life with my ex, the tight bodied yoga instructor, when we are pretty vanilla.
> 
> The other thing that hit my wife pretty hard was the fact that I HAD done all those things with my ex wife, and made it pretty clear that I had no desire to try them with her. It made her feel rejected, that I didn't find her as desirable as my ex, as attractive as my ex. In short, she felt that I didn't want her as much as I wanted my ex.


Thx for the elaborate explanation. 

I am happy to see that your wife has the same feelings about such a situation as the men seem to have. That must create some more understanding.


----------



## samyeagar

Catherine602 said:


> You said that you were uncomfortable so why can't your wife let them go? They make you uncomfortable and being a supplier is a reminder of your wifes insecurities. This for orgasms from a toy in an otherwise great sex life.
> 
> I'm not dismissing her feelings, I think one of the most important thing in an intimate relationship is to make the feelings of your partner your problems too. Considering both of you, cutting out the sex toy activity altogether would be the only sensible thing to do.


After the initial emotions, thoughts, feelings, she came to the conclusion on her own that it would be best to just take the toys off the table for three main reasons...she finally realized that I actually didn't like them, she didn't enjoy her own mind movies, and she didn't want to be putting me in a position to reminisce about my sex life with my ex.

After my initial thoughts and feelings on it, I came to the conclusion that it was something I had willingly and repeatedly engaged in with my ex, and I was willing to try and work on with her and for her. That she was indeed a different partner, and it wasn't fair to her to take something off the table that she discovered she very much enjoyed. This was an opportunity for us to explore together, something she had never done before.

As I said, we had many conversations trying to reconcile our thoughts on this, and at her suggestion, bringing out the toys is something that has been left completely up to me, for me to initiate if the timing feels right for me. I have a few times, and will continue to do so, though it will likely never be a regular part of our sexual routine, nor will it likely ever be something I actually enjoy.


----------



## Catherine602

Sam it's really good to see the way you handled this. Its a balanced and healthy arrangement. You seem to have resolved the issues, at lest initially, by a willingness to give a little. Your wife seems to have done the same.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> After the initial emotions, thoughts, feelings, she came to the conclusion on her own that it would be best to just take the toys off the table for three main reasons...she finally realized that I actually didn't like them, she didn't enjoy her own mind movies, and she didn't want to be putting me in a position to reminisce about my sex life with my ex.
> 
> After my initial thoughts and feelings on it, I came to the conclusion that it was something I had willingly and repeatedly engaged in with my ex, and I was willing to try and work on with her and for her. That she was indeed a different partner, and it wasn't fair to her to take something off the table that she discovered she very much enjoyed. This was an opportunity for us to explore together, something she had never done before.
> 
> As I said, we had many conversations trying to reconcile our thoughts on this, and at her suggestion, bringing out the toys is something that has been left completely up to me, for me to initiate if the timing feels right for me. I have a few times, and will continue to do so, though it will likely never be a regular part of our sexual routine, nor will it likely ever be something I actually enjoy.


She'll do threesomes with her ex but not with you. You did toys with your ex but won't with her. 

Shrewd......

Looks like you two are even.


----------



## Chuck71

I miss all the great threads


----------



## treyvion

Chuck71 said:


> I miss all the great threads


Hopefully you were not on TAM and enjoying life.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

nogutsnoglory said:


> She was in a committed relationship of a long term boyfriend during the threesome with another woman and she enjoyed the experience and admits it.
> She was also involved in other acts involving just her partner at the time, no threesome. She claims to have enjoyed them all, has no regrets, yet lied to me about ever doing these things. I understand but do not forgive the lie. I do not forgive liars.
> 
> My opinion on being lied to is I get to change my reaction to what it would have been had I been given the truth. I am not allowed this concession though. I am wrong to want these things, I am wrong to feel slighted. I just do not agree.


She tried a three-some and liked in her younger days. But most people do their experimentation when they are younger. You fault her for not wanting a three-some inside of your marriage vows? Seems you are the one who is confused here. Shrooms may be fun, too, but people grow out of their early experimentation days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

People!!! Read the entire thread! He stated he DID NOT WANT A THREESOME. It was other acts she was recently bragging to a new friend about doing with a guy before marriage that she Really enjoyed doing but told her hubby previously that she did not do those things and now he has discovered she did she refuses to do them with him or explain why she will not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

Divinely Favored said:


> People!!! Read the entire thread! He stated he DID NOT WANT A THREESOME. It was other acts she was recently bragging to a new friend about doing with a guy before marriage that she Really enjoyed doing but told her hubby previously that she did not do those things and now he has discovered she did she refuses to do them with him or explain why she will not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


big
Im a victim of this too. I suspect its due to her popularity, im not really big in todays pop culture, my sex is good, i look good but it wont gain her points in today's game. Ive had about all i can stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

This behavior shows utter contempt and disrespect from her. I think if I were in this situation I would be telling my wife, if I did not say were done first, "I am going to do(insert whatever sexual activity I was denied but she still talks to her friend about how much she liked doing it with her previous partner) and I would really like you to be the one I do it with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DrSher

I can totally understand. I was involved in two FFM's years before we got married, but didn't have it all out. My wife KNOWS I want a threesome and sometimes teases me with it, but haven't said anything else. 

Otherwise, I could not imagine being married to someone not giving head, or dating them period. Two girls is the Holy Grail for most men and up to 1/5 couples have had one.

Yes, marriage can be a death trap with no sex; no fun and everything is your fault. As long as I get enough sex, I can put up with the rest and one threesome would probably not be enough.  A "girlfriend" of mine is ready and wants to do my wife so bad. All that is missing now is closing the deal, LOL.


----------



## DrSher

bandit.45 said:


> I still don't buy her logic. I think it's bullshyte.
> 
> She had a threesome with her ex-husband because she knew he was cheating anyway and wanted to try the girl on girl thing, so that's why she wanted to try it. But she won't do it with you because she's afraid she would be too jealous seeing you bang another chick.....
> 
> Okay......


 That's F'd up!! Then again, if he is happy with this situation, he is staying put where he is. 

If you marry before 40,you will miss out ALOT. That's fine and well, but then, the least a more experienced wife can do is give out some of that experience.


----------



## sokillme

Threesomes are the Russian Roulette of marriage.


----------



## Personal

DrSher said:


> If you marry before 40,you will miss out ALOT.


I've been twice married before 40, please tell me what I've missed out on?


----------



## Evinrude58

Got a good marriage and good sex?
Still wanting more, eh? Think you deserve a threesome where you get to bang another woman in front of your wife and expect her to like it?
Well if I had a wife that didn't get upset at me banging another woman in front of her, I would just leave her.

You men that think it's no big deal to have a threesome are just delusional. I hope you get your nasty threesome. I know what you'll get within a year from that fateful event, and you will deserve it. Walking papers.......

Sure I can see the thrill of wanting a fantasy threesome. Get it out of your system before you get married. Marriage has no room for an extra in the bedroom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Popism....... "Females want one man to task their 1,000 needs. Men want 1,000 women to task their one need.

How's that usually end up?"


----------



## DrSher

Now you are comparing asking for a threesome with holocaust.. 


WOW, this is feminism on steroids!!


Vega said:


> Thunder7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sweeping everything under the rug, pretending this new, deceitful information never came out is the proper solution. I agree there's probably more than meets the eye here. But that is no resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that everything should be swept under the rug, so to speak. But there's a difference between LYING and intentionally withholding information.
> 
> Let's put it this way. No one "deserves" the truth just because they WANT it. After all, if a Nazi soldier came to my door in Germany during WWII and asked me if there are any Jews in my house, I would DEFINITELY lie, if I had a basement full of Jews. I would lie because I already know that the soldier would kill the Jews. Therefore, they don't "deserve" the truth.
> 
> As I mentioned before, perhaps the OP's wife didn't reveal this information to him because she already knew him well enough that if he found out that she did 'this' before, that HE would want her to do 'it' with _him_. Just because she 'enjoyed' 'it' before doesn't mean that she wants to do it NOW. Tastes change. People change. Heck, I've done things as a kid that, while I 'enjoyed' doing it at the time, I wouldn't DREAM of doing it NOW! I look back on some of the stuff I did and think "WTF were you THINKING, Vega?!" LOL!
> 
> Perhaps the OP should put himself is his wife's shoes. If there was something that he did a long time ago that he liked doing but not longer does--AND, he was afraid that if he TOLD his partner that, that his partner would want to do 'it' because his partner had a big EGO--what would the OP do?
> 
> I think if the OP got control of his ego, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
Click to expand...


----------



## MarriedDude

Whats with all the Zombie Thread ressurection??


----------



## DrSher

Personal said:


> I've been twice married before 40, please tell me what I've missed out on?


 Lots of Bachelor time?

Don't worry. I feel with you. I was married during school and missed out on lots of fun. Then, when you are young and having to deal with an inexperienced, *****y, controlling and constantly whining chick, who suddenly stopped having sex, while having to pass exams, you just give up.

My divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me and I did FBI/KGB/MI6 level research on my new wife after I started dating her. I know that my previous marriage was a constant feeling of being the whipping boy and maaaaayyybe you got something. And then, don't even dare looking sideways at another girl. 
Honestly, I would have preferred getting married at 40-years of age. It would have made life way easier before that. How many younger guys marry because they really want to?? I wonder. I was also coerced/obliged to marry the first wife so it was my fault. 

I hope that answers your questions: Married twice before 40. Unless it was brief both times, you had a lot of time where you have missed out, during the most vital years of your life.


----------



## DrSher

Yes


----------



## Personal

DrSher said:


> Lots of Bachelor time?
> 
> Don't worry. I feel with you. I was married during school and missed out on lots of fun. Then, when you are young and having to deal with an inexperienced, *****y, controlling and constantly whining chick, who suddenly stopped having sex, while having to pass exams, you just give up.
> 
> My divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me and I did FBI?KGB/MI6 level research on my new wife after I started dating her. I know that my previous marriage was a constant feeling of being the whipping boy and maaaaayyybe you got something. And then, don't even dare looking sideways at another girl.
> Honestly, I would have preferred getting married at 40-years of age. It would have made life way easier before that. How many younger guys marry because they really want to?? I wonder. I was also coerced/obliged to marry the first wife so it was my fault.
> 
> I hope that answers your questions: Married twice before 40. Unless it was brief both times, you had a lot of time where you have missed out, during the most vital years of your life.


Hmmm, ...

See the thing is having been married before 40 I don't feel like I have missed out on anything at all, nor do I feel like I am missing out on anything being married either.

Despite first being married when I was 19, separated at 20 and divorced at 21, then getting married for the second time when I was close to 28 (we've been together for 20 years – married 17+). I have lived a fairly hedonistic lifestyle so I really don't feel like I have missed out on anything at all.

The reason why I asked you the question about your statement with respect to marrying before 40, was because I considered your assertions to be rather presumptive.


----------



## Starstarfish

Thanks for providing every "Alpha" male on TAM the new measuring stick to hold their woman up against and to complain about there, Personal.


----------



## Personal

Starstarfish said:


> Thanks for providing every "Alpha" male on TAM the new measuring stick to hold their woman up against and to complain about there, Personal.


I don't buy into all of this alpha beta nonsense at all and think anyone using my sexual experience as a measure of required expectation would most certainly be barking up the wrong tree.

As to many of the things that I listed, they have only occurred because I and others have been willing to share them from a place of considerable trust and communication. I most certainly think that no one should be coerced, compelled, feel obligated to do and or be manipulated into doing anything sexual they don't want to do at all ever.

P.S. That said I was railing against the nonsensical premise that sex is certain to dry up upon marriage.


----------



## DrSher

Personal said:


> Hmmm, ...
> 
> See the thing is having been married before 40 I don't feel like I have missed out on anything at all, nor do I feel like I am missing out on anything being married either.
> 
> I more figure you don't feel with me because our experiences have differed considerably.
> 
> *Anyway having been married (twice) before 40, I have done the following while single and or divorced:*
> 
> 1. Having a woman ask me out on a date do some heavy petting with me then dump her current sex partner immediately afterwards followed, by having sex with me on our third date (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 2. Receiving oral sex (many of my sexual partners including the women who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 3. Giving oral sex (many of my sexual partners including the women who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 4. Having sex partners swallow, and or alternatively drool my semen out of their mouths, sometimes play with it and or receive facials (all of my longer term sexual relationship partners and a smattering of my other sex partners).
> 
> 5. Having a sex partner give oral sex after you have been inside them – I only mention this because until I visited TAM I didn't even know that some people don't do this (all of the women who have given me oral sex).
> 
> 6. Having sex within minutes of meeting someone at a pub or nightclub (a couple of different women I don't recommend this but sometimes things happen when you're inebriated).
> 
> 7. Having sex with someone within an hour of meeting them at a party (woman who became my first wife and a few others).
> 
> 8. Having sex with more than one partner during one day (different dates).
> 
> 9. Having sex with more than one partner consecutively at the same party (unattached at the time).
> 
> 10. Having sex at a party, with others having sex in the same room (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 11. Having sex with others in the same room who are completely unaware that you're having sex (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 12. Having sex at a party, with others not having sex in the same room (woman who became my first wife and one other sexual partner).
> 
> 13. Having sex at a corner booth in a pub (two different women at different times).
> 
> 14. Having quickie sex standing up in the middle of a dance floor at a nightclub (I figure most people didn't notice because there were so many people around us – again not recommended).
> 
> 15. Having quickie sex in a monorail carriage as it meandered it's way around a city CBD (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 16. Having sex on a table top tennis-table (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 17. Having sex in a public stairwell (women who became my first wife).
> 
> 18. Having sex in the scrub at North Head at Manly, Australia (only did this with one partner).
> 
> 19. Having sex on a few beaches, it can be great fun but sand can really suck as well (various partners including the two women who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 20. Being one of three men having sex with one woman at her place since she asked us to come to her home and have sex with her (very early into it as I sobered up, I decided it wasn't my thing so I left and went back to the barracks – this only happened once).
> 
> 21. Having anal sex – giving (various women including the two women who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 22. Having sex at various parks, on picnic tables etc (a few different women including the women who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 23. Having sex in a car (woman who became my second wife).
> 
> 24. Having my sex partner go out not wearing any underwear and flashing me in public when no one else can spot them (a few different women including my second wife).
> 
> 25. Having my sex partner sleep naked almost all of the time (all of my sexual relationships where we slept together in the same bed).
> 
> 26. Having my sex partner pose for me in the nude for the purposes of life drawing and painting (three different women including those who became my first and second wife).
> 
> 27. Leading sexual activity, directing my partner to do things and or physically placing my partner as I like (all of my long term sexual partners and a few of the others).
> 
> 28. Applying blindfolds and restraints (women who became my first and second wife plus one other sex partner).
> 
> 29. Spanking my sex partner (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 30. Fisting my sex partner (woman who became my second wife and one other sex partner).
> 
> 31. Being showered by my sex partner from the source - cleanup being a chore this is for the bathroom or outdoors (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 32. Showering my sex partner from the source - cleanup being a chore this is for the bathroom or outdoors (woman who became my first wife).
> 
> 33. Having sex with a married woman while I was divorced (this only happened on one occasion and was on the night she left her husband).
> 
> 34. Turned down various explicit offers of sex from women I had recently met (one can have too much of a good thing).
> 
> *Likewise I do and have done all of the following while being married:*
> 
> 1. Receiving oral sex (first and second wife).
> 
> 2. Giving oral sex (first and second wife).
> 
> 3. Having my sex partner swallow, and or alternatively drool my semen out of their mouths, sometimes play with it and or receive facials (first and second wife).
> 
> 4. Having a sex partner give oral sex after you have been inside them (first and second wife).
> 
> 5. Having anal sex – giving (first and second wife).
> 
> 6. Having sex at various parks, on picnic tables etc (second wife).
> 
> 7. Having sex in a car (second wife).
> 
> 8. Having sex on a few beaches (first and second wife).
> 
> 9. Having my sex partner often go out not wearing any underwear and flashing me in public when no one else can spot them (second wife).
> 
> 10. Having my sex partner sleep naked almost all of the time (first and second wife).
> 
> 11. Having my sex partner pose for me in the nude for the purposes of life drawing and painting (second wife).
> 
> 12. Leading sexual activity, directing my partner to do things and or physically placing my partner as I like (first and second wife).
> 
> 13. Applying blindfolds and restraints (first and second wife).
> 
> 14. Having my sex partner use various sex toys including butt plugs (second wife).
> 
> 15. Fisting my sex partner (second wife).
> 
> 16. Spanking my sex partner (first wife).
> 
> 17. Being showered by my sex partner from the source - cleanup being a chore this is for the bathroom or outdoors (first wife).
> 
> 18. Showering my sex partner from the source - cleanup being a chore this is for the bathroom or outdoors (first and second wife).
> 
> 19. Having my sex partner take my **** in the mouth from the source - cleanup being a chore this is for the bathroom or outdoors (second wife).
> 
> 20. Having my sex partner rim me (second wife).
> 
> 21. Rimming my sex partner (second wife).
> 
> 22. Having my sex partner give me a prostate massage (second wife).
> 
> 23. Having my sex partner make the occasional digital sex movie for our private viewing (second wife).
> 
> 24. Having my sex partner pose for photographs after sex acts like receiving facials and much more (second wife).
> 
> 25. Sharing an online account on a fetish website with my sex partner where we have posted some of our sex and *** facial photographs – which I might add thus far that experience has been pretty boring (second wife).
> 
> 26. Having very frequent sex throughout a marriage – exempting being apart through work obligations and illness or injury etc (first and second wife).
> 
> 27. Turned down a few explicit offers of sex from women I had recently met (to date my marriage is monogamous- since I don't cheat on my sexual partners, I don't play off reservation).
> 
> Although I'm sure I've forgotten some things, I expect the above paints a pretty good picture as to the variety of experiences I have had despite being married before the age of 40.
> 
> Anyway although there are plenty of things I haven't done like using whips and paddles (I don't care to leave bruises or welts), wearing latex or leather for sex (I'm neutral on this), c*ck rings, piercing (ewww) , blood play (double ewww), scat (triple ewww) etc, in my experience marriage has been a tremendous smorgasbord of sensual delight.
> 
> So despite first being married when I was 19, separated at 20 and divorced at 21, then getting married for the second time when I was close to 28 (we've been together for 20 years – married 17+). I have lived a fairly hedonistic lifestyle so I really don't feel like I have missed out on anything at all.
> 
> The reason why I asked you the question about your statement with respect to marrying before 40, was because I considered your assertions to be rather presumptive and far from accurate which is rather ironic coming from someone who claimed to be a sex expert as just removed from your recently edited post as follows.


 Clearly I should not assume all guys are the same. You clearly has had GREAT experiences and probably know very well how to score and have great sex. Kudos!!

My main point was still that the emasculation process tends to speed up when you get married. My first wife stopped sex from day one, pretty much and this was in medical school. I went from being the "coolest" guy to being the deadest fish within a week. 

You have handled this very well. I didn't feel liberated until my first divorce. My new wife is 10 years younger; willing to do it all; cute; head-turning ass and very smart. There is no need to be a door mat in life, which you already have shown. 

My main point is that many guys get married way to early and often with way too old women as well. Women simply mature much earlier than us and there is always a gap, IMHO. They are inexperienced, have no control and easy to manipulate by a girl that is their age.


----------



## Vega

Personal;16140793P.S. That said I was railing against the nonsensical premise that sex is certain to dry up upon marriage.[/QUOTE said:


> Then why not just SAY this instead of presenting your personal sexual 'resume'?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wow - interesting thread - for me it's NOT ok to lie and deceive to land a spouse but neither does your spouse owe you certain sexual acts because they did them before - that being said I can see how someone would feel slighted if their spouse did hold out stuff they did with another lover and enjoyed it..
@nogutsnoglory - how did it turn out with your wife?


----------



## Vega

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow - interesting thread - for me it's NOT ok to lie and deceive to land a spouse but neither does your spouse owe you certain sexual acts because they did them before - that being said I can see how someone would feel slighted if their spouse did hold out stuff they did with another lover and enjoyed it..


I get the feeling that it's not the lie that's the problem, but the fact that she doesn't want to do some things with him that she did with previous partners. 

If his wife didn't lie to him and told him that she did things when he asked her--*but she didn't want to do them*--, his "male ego" would still feel crushed. 

He seems to be using the fact that she lied as 'leverage' that she now 'owes' him. 

But he'd probably feel that way whether she lied or not.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Vega said:


> I get the feeling that it's not the lie that's the problem, but the fact that she doesn't want to do some things with him that she did with previous partners.
> 
> If his wife didn't lie to him and told him that she did things when he asked her--*but she didn't want to do them*--, his "male ego" would still feel crushed.
> 
> He seems to be using the fact that she lied as 'leverage' that she now 'owes' him.
> 
> But he'd probably feel that way whether she lied or not.


I'd have a big problem with the lies. I also get why he'd feel slighted if she enjoyed it and didn't want to do some of that stuff with him - outside of the threesome - its not healthy to be bringing in a third person to the marriage. Does she owe it to him? No, but if she really was into him she would have given him some of what he has asked for...


----------



## DrSher

Let me say it THIS way. I don't know any guys who would have shrug their shoulders (if she had said before the marriage) that she did threesomes before, liked them, but wouldn't do them with you.

I don't know many guys who would have loved to stay with a woman after that either. If she declares she is going to withhold that, what else will she hold back.. 
No thanks, move on. And don't give up on the threesome. Just find a new wife.


----------



## Truthseeker1

@DrSher - the problem for me is she denied him the truth and didn't allow him to make a fully informed decision on whether to stay or go...if she did those things and never wanted to do them again - that is up to her- but its up to him whether to stay or go..and I stand by my statement if she was truly into him she'd have given him some of the stuff he asked for - no guy wants to feel like the "safe choice"


----------



## Vega

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd have a big problem with the lies. I also get why he'd feel slighted if she enjoyed it and didn't want to do some of that stuff with him - outside of the threesome - its not healthy to be bringing in a third person to the marriage. Does she owe it to him? No, but if she really was into him she would have given him some of what he has asked for...


But she enjoyed it how long ago? It's not like she enjoyed it _yesterday_, but doesn't want to do it anymore _today_. A lot can happen during that gap. 

It's not that she's not into the OP, but that she's not into the specific sexual act. 

No still means no, even in marriage.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Vega said:


> But she enjoyed it how long ago? It's not like she enjoyed it _yesterday_, but doesn't want to do it anymore _today_. A lot can happen during that gap.
> 
> It's not that she's not into the OP, but that she's not into the specific sexual act.
> 
> No still means no, even in marriage.


Her lies compounded by her denial makes me think she isnt that into him sexually - she might view him as a good partner and father but he's not lighting her world up...


----------



## DrSher

There isn't a woman in the world who thinks saying this out would be a marriage booster. Telling your husband you had a threesome before with another guy, but eh... sorry you are just my doormat, bank and babysitter so f... off!! 

There isn't a woman in the world who doesn't understand this either and the proper response. 

IMHO, this is not her leveraging him, but rather about breaking him down. She clearly does not love her man, IMHO, and the sooner he finds that out the better. 

Again, you need to know EVERYTHING about your woman before you do something as insane as getting married or having kids.


----------



## Anon Pink

You guys do realize that the OP last logged on to TAM in 2013? And that this thread is nothing more than a platform from which people debate whether a wife owes her husband the sex she gave previous lovers, or whether a wife who refuses is simply showing that she isn't sexually attracted to her husband, or that those who think the first two are completely wrong because...people change?

SMH


----------



## DrSher

Vega said:


> But she enjoyed it how long ago? It's not like she enjoyed it _yesterday_, but doesn't want to do it anymore _today_. A lot can happen during that gap.
> 
> It's not that she's not into the OP, but that she's not into the specific sexual act.
> 
> No still means no, even in marriage.


 What do you mean, "no means no"??IS there any talk about sexual assault here? She opened up all this Pandora's box and nobody else.


----------



## bandit.45

Vega said:


> \
> 
> No still means no, even in marriage.


Correct, including and up to staying in the marriage.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Banned-It.45 said:


> Correct, including and up to staying in the marriage.


i think she should not have lied, doesn't owe him anything and if she were really into him would have given him at least one item on his list..she feels comfortable with him like an old pair of shoes..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Evinrude58 said:


> Sure I can see the thrill of wanting a fantasy threesome. Get it out of your system before you get married. Marriage has no room for an extra in the bedroom.


I see this a little different.. if someone is INTO this sort of thing BEFORE they marry.. and love it.. think it's erotic.. good memories sort of thing... I wouldn't think they are the exclusive type in any way shape or form.. they should stay away from emotional/ sexual commitment..

I speak from the viewpoint that myself & husband are both turned off by threesomes.. neither of us has ever had this fantasy or desire...


----------



## bandit.45

Truthseeker1 said:


> i think she should not have lied, doesn't owe him anything and if she were really into him would have given him at least one item on his list..she feels comfortable with him like an old pair of shoes..


Yes, and with this knowledge, he has the freedom to choose whether or not he made a mistake in marrying her. She is obviously not a compatible mate for him. 

Somebody axe this zombie.


----------



## Truthseeker1

@SimplyAmorous - dont you think that fact that she gave him NOTHING on that list suggests she is not as into him as she claims?


----------



## DrSher

Truth hurts, but yes. 

I would instantly leave, but that's just me..


----------



## Married but Happy

SimplyAmorous said:


> I see this a little different.. if someone is INTO this sort of thing BEFORE they marry.. and love it.. think it's erotic.. good memories sort of thing... I wouldn't think they are the exclusive type in any way shape or form. they should stay away from emotional/ sexual commitment...


I have to disagree with this. It's still entirely possible to commit and marry, while not being completely exclusive. I will agree that a couple (or more!) need to be in full agreement on this topic, but such mutual agreement can come before OR after they marry, as long as it's in place before they act on it.


----------



## TAMAT

Truthseeker wrote 

".she feels comfortable with him like an old pair of shoes.."

The kind she wears around the house and in the garden, but never goes dancing in. 

Perhaps there is more wisdom in that sentence then is first apparent. Women see us as footwear.

Tamat


----------



## BradWesley2

Anon Pink said:


> You guys do realize that the OP last logged on to TAM in 2013? And that this thread is nothing more than a platform from which people debate whether a wife owes her husband the sex she gave previous lovers, or whether a wife who refuses is simply showing that she isn't sexually attracted to her husband, or that those who think the first two are completely wrong because...people change?
> 
> SMH


Couldn't agree more with you. Would like to see a mod lock this thread, and put it out of its misery.

Don't understand newbies dredging up zombie threads.

If you're interested in the topic, start a new thread.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Married but Happy said:


> I have to disagree with this. It's still entirely possible to commit and marry, while not being completely exclusive. I will agree that a couple (or more!) need to be in full agreement on this topic, but such mutual agreement can come before OR after they marry, as long as it's in place before they act on it.


You know I'm all for honesty/ transparency in relationships... even sharing fantasies... I don't think we should hide anything from someone we're exclusive with... even our past ...

Yes..It's hugely important a couple is compatible in this.. Open to it, on a similar page..

Obviously I'd not be compatible with someone Open to this lifestyle..this doesn't mean I couldn't have friends like this.. just not a lover / life partner..

Everything about it goes against how strongly I feel about intimacy/ exclusivity & it's intended meaning, and how I look upon Marriage.



Truthseeker1 said:


> @SimplyAmorous - dont you think that fact that she gave him NOTHING on that list suggests she is not as into him as she claims?


 I was talking to my husband about HOW he would feel if a woman he married had been there, done that with her ex's but wasn't willing with him..

His response... he wouldn't feel she loved him, or yeah.. was into him... it wouldn't sit well with him at all.. 

The problem is this.. all those former experiences.. let's say some were Exciting, thrilling, she was melting all over the Bad boy.. but then others could have turned "traumatic" even... lets say a ONS was a selfish JERK and he forced her to suck his C**k pushing her head into him , she's gagging.. then THIS traumatic experience will forever stay with her.. she would be turned off by even wanting to go there again.. with anyone. 

So basically what happens is.. her future husband, if she ever marries never gets to experience this - with enthusiasm ... due to the trauma she felt with some former JackA$$... 

I can see her side.. but I can also See HIS SIDE.. it's NOT fair.. in fact it blows.. so basically the good man looses out.. I think the man you marry should get above & beyond what you ever gave to another man.. After all he was the one who was willing to give you his all.. taking your hand.. I think very highly of marriage... this should be our ultimate sexual playground....

I did post on this (3 yrs ago)...post #346 .....



> I am a woman and totally "get" the Op's opening post...if I was a Man, I would feel the same ....Men have "EGO"... so what else is new under the sun......they want to feel like they can fire us up & they are King of the Mountain...that we melt under their touch....why wouldn't they?
> 
> So they say...Men care more about Respect over Love anyway....as if us women don't want to feel we are the most desired voluptuous creature in HIS EYES, the most precious thing that walked into HIS life...if we marry a good man who treats us with this precious care.....why should he get any less ? ...it's all in how we treat each other...what we do- speaks that love.
> 
> As I see this turned around...women are far more Jealous when we think our men Looked that chick over there up & down while not putting us #1... so if a man feels this way...(but in the sexual -EGO...vs Women's feeling Less)... I am surely one to give him "a pass" and show some understanding.....
> 
> The term "gift" was used in the ending of his post twice...this is very telling when anyone does this...they see sex in a very special light -between 2 people deeply in love...HE WAS LIED TO....deceived ..he had more of a Romantic view going in...
> 
> ..I believe our husbands should get the very BEST we ever had to offer...because he is the one man who walked us to the Alter and proved His love. We should do all we can to make him feel he is the most precious, wanted, desired King ever...and no man, no old flame, no ex who dangled his affections but was only a puff of hot air should compare.
> 
> It's all in our attitudes, our enthusiasm....our men feel it... what we do, how we love them...and in the bedroom... speaks.


----------



## I Don't Know

SA, you get it perfectly. Too bad everyone doesn't take their SO into account. If a man or a woman NEEDS to be your best sexual partner ever or the person you lust after more than anyone before or whatever it is that they need to be for you, and they are not, you are short changing them and being selfish to stay with them.


----------



## Truthseeker1

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was talking to my husband about HOW he would feel if a woman he married had been there, done that with her ex's but wasn't willing with him..
> 
> His response... he wouldn't feel she loved him, or yeah.. was into him... it wouldn't sit well with him at all..
> 
> The problem is this.. all those former experiences.. let's say some were Exciting, thrilling, she was melting all over the Bad boy.. but then others could have turned "traumatic" even... lets say a ONS was a selfish JERK and he forced her to suck his C**k pushing her head into him , she's gagging.. then THIS traumatic experience will forever stay with her.. she would be turned off by even wanting to go there again.. with anyone.
> 
> So basically what happens is.. her future husband, if she ever marries never gets to experience this - with enthusiasm ... due to the trauma she felt with some former JackA$$...
> 
> I can see her side.. but I can also See HIS SIDE.. it's NOT fair.. in fact it blows.. so basically the good man looses out.. I think the man you marry should get above & beyond what you ever gave to another man.. After all he was the one who was willing to give you his all.. taking your hand.. I think very highly of marriage... this should be our ultimate sexual playground....
> 
> I did post on this (3 yrs ago)...post #346 .....


 @SimplyAmorous For me it is two things - the lying and the fact that she did enjoy it earlier - so why not try one or two of those things with her husband - *which leads me to believe she is not into him and takes him for granted* -ifshe had said I did X and I got hurt or it made me feel dirty or whatever and I hated it then yes he would be a [email protected]@ for demanding she do it again - but that is not the case here...is he entitled to it? nope does her refusal to do with him things she enjoyed say something about how much she is into him? absolutely..


----------



## Blondilocks

MarriedDude said:


> Whats with all the Zombie Thread ressurection??


Someone wants a threesome and wants to gather ammunition to lob at their wife.

Also, since the password hassle, there are fewer posters creating threads.


----------



## TAMAT

It's a zombie thread, but the title is painful for more than a few, I can say for myself at least, that it is a fear which never went away. I might think about it less but it never dimmed. 

Tamat


----------



## Catherine602

I know its a zombie but I think it's still a good discussion. 

Men feel that love is involved in a woman's choice to do sex acts but in reality, for women, it's just a choice. Women usually don't base their feelings of love for their partner on sex acts like men appear to do. It's a basic difference between the sexes. 

A woman can love her husband and show it is numerous ways. He may not value or appreciate the ways she shows her love and that can lead to problem. This may be one reason that some women feel that all her husband thinks about is sex or all he wants her for is sex or he thinks the only thing that is important in the whole relationship is sex. 

When she says this, it means she does not feel loved any more than he does. They are both wrong. Sexual likes and dislikes develop over time and with experience. In youth, people try things and stop because they don't like or because their taste change. 

Women may feel pressure to do certain sex acts to fit a norm when they are young and maturing sexually. As they mature, they gain confidence to express their likes and dislikes. If men and women knew that love is not predicated on sex acts, likes and dislikes would cease to be so highly charged. 

Differences in sexual taste would assume it's rightful place in the relationship, like all differences, it's one more thing to work out a compromise. Isn't that the hallmark of a successful relationship?


----------



## DrSher

I feel chasing dreams and getting wifey on board is part of the dreams...

At times when we go out, I ask her "is she cute"..? She either laughs or says "stop it"!! 

She's coming out of her shell. Honestly, we started a business on our own. 

Planning a ride with blimp in Hawai when time comes. 
This will be fun....


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

BradWesley2 said:


> Couldn't agree more with you. Would like to see a mod lock this thread, and put it out of its misery.
> 
> Don't understand newbies dredging up zombie threads.
> 
> *If you're interested in the topic, start a new thread.*


Flip side: Why start a new thread about a topic that is regularly discussed in a bunch of other threads. Why not post in an existing thread?


----------



## Haiku

Bullet point: There are limits to my interest and the level of detail I'm entitled and to know or disclose. 

Speaking only for myself, the fine play-by-play details of a woman's past is not any of my business. I might know she has tried various things and whether she currently enjoys it is pretty much the limit of my need to know.


----------



## Starstarfish

> SimplyAmorous - dont you think that fact that she gave him NOTHING on that list suggests she is not as into him as she claims?


Whenever people purposefully choose to use the word "give" in reference to sex, it honestly doesn't bring up at least for me the image that the interest or enjoyment of the partner (generally the woman) is of any interest in the situation. 

And I think that the expectations on women in this regard continue to grow and grow and I partially blame the explosion of porn. I have a seriously hard time believing that if you asked a collection of grandmothers or great-grandmothers if their husband brought up that they didn't feel she was "really into him" unless she was willing to work down a bucket list of things like threesomes and anal, I seriously, seriously doubt that would come up. 

That if you don't do those things you are taking him for granted or taking advantage of him. Which makes marriage not seem like a mutual effort for companionship or the formation of a functional household or family. It's I do X, I get sex and more specifically from this list. Anything else and this isn't the bargain. 

If that's what men expect they should be honest. But I seriously doubt that conversation ever happens before a relationship or even before marriage very often. As much as I hate everything 50 Shades of Grey stands for, perhaps more couples need elaborate sex contracts so everyone knows what everyone else expects.


----------



## MAJDEATH

People change throughout their adult lives. Likes, dislikes, preferences, abilities, etc. all change along the path. That's why you will see a woman re-marry someone completely different from their first husband. Her tastes have changed and the dynamic is different.

People change jobs, hair-styles, wardrobes, and sexual tastes.


----------



## MAJDEATH

It may be an issue of giving the guy what he wanted. One OM wanted my W to do drugs and go bang in the cemetery. But others did not want that, and neither do I. She didn't agree to the drugs, but agreed to the cemetery, because she wanted to please the OM. I doesn't mean that she wouldn't do similar things to please me, but I am different and like to do other things.

And the reverse is true. She likes to take couples baths. That same OM wouldn't do that with her, because he didn't care for it and usually was on limited time (being married). I am not a big fan of couples baths but I do it for my W because that is what she wants.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> Differences in sexual taste would assume it's rightful place in the relationship, like all differences, it's one more thing to work out a compromise. Isn't that the hallmark of a successful relationship?


The one elephant in that room is that in (almost) every other circumstance in a relationship, compromise, mutuality, give and take and consideration are held to be desirable, almost required, qualities.

In the field of sex, absolute, complete personal autonomy is the expectation. In the sexual arena, the right of either partner to refuse to participate in any act, at any time, and to be able to do so without having to offer any sort of explanation, is considered to be fundamental. 

If it's golf, shopping, cooking, visiting inlaws, compromise is expected. If it's sex, the idea that you should compromise is anathema.

Hence, men and women arrive here and ask how they get their partner to have sex with them. The answers are make yourself more attractive and hope they come on board, get used to it or walk away, because logic, "fairness", mutuality and compromise are not part of the discussion.


----------



## Starstarfish

Sawney Beane said:


> The one elephant in that room is that in (almost) every other circumstance in a relationship, compromise, mutuality, give and take and consideration are held to be desirable, almost required, qualities.
> 
> In the field of sex, absolute, complete personal autonomy is the expectation. In the sexual arena, the right of either partner to refuse to participate in any act, at any time, and to be able to do so without having to offer any sort of explanation, is considered to be fundamental.
> 
> If it's golf, shopping, cooking, visiting inlaws, compromise is expected. If it's sex, the idea that you should compromise is anathema.
> 
> Hence, men and women arrive here and ask how they get their partner to have sex with them. The answers are make yourself more attractive and hope they come on board, get used to it or walk away, because logic, "fairness", mutuality and compromise are not part of the discussion.


What's an example of that functionally working?

If you are someone who only wants sex once a week you could compromise and have sex twice or even three times a week. However, not everyone is able to "fake it" and pretend to be super into and overly excited about something they don't really want. You are then accused of giving "duty sex" that is worse than no sex at all.

If you get up three times a week, then the goal post on the compromise is changed, then it starts to be about a bucket list of sex acts and how you are "missing out." And then men on TAM will rally how "compromise" means you get what you want sexually and anything less is her "taking advantage of you" and obviously doesn't really love you. 

Why is the assumption that whoever labels themselves the "HD" in a relationship is always in the right? Or that their desires are even reasonable?


----------



## Sawney Beane

Starstarfish said:


> What's an example of that functionally working?


The point is it doesn't.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> Men feel that love is involved in a woman's choice to do sex acts but in reality, for women, it's just a choice. Women usually don't base their feelings of love for their partner on sex acts like men appear to do. *It's a basic difference between the sexes. *


Indeed.

The best result that can come of this discussion would be for men and women to realize how the other gender thinks about this and to take that into consideration.

The worst that can happen is for each gender to just tell the other that they're wrong for thinking the way they do.

Mostly we get the latter.


----------



## Married but Happy

Starstarfish said:


> If you are someone who only wants sex once a week you could compromise and have sex twice or even three times a week. However, not everyone is able to "fake it" and pretend to be super into and overly excited about something they don't really want. You are then accused of giving "duty sex" that is worse than no sex at all.
> 
> If you get up three times a week, then the goal post on the compromise is changed, then it starts to be about a bucket list of sex acts and how you are "missing out." And then men on TAM will rally how "compromise" means you get what you want sexually and anything less is her "taking advantage of you" and obviously doesn't really love you.
> 
> Why is the assumption that whoever labels themselves the "HD" in a relationship is always in the right? Or that their desires are even reasonable?


I have to agree. When it comes to sex, there is only a little room for compromise and still have it be good for both most of the time. IMO, you're either sexually compatible, or you're not. If you're not, you can either live with the resulting issues, or you can move on and seek someone who is more compatible. Having tried to live with it before, I finally decided I needed to move on, and now recommend the same to anyone with this problem. Most of the time, moving on will lead to greater happiness, IMO (and experience).


----------



## Starstarfish

Married but Happy said:


> I have to agree. When it comes to sex, there is only a little room for compromise and still have it be good for both most of the time. IMO, you're either sexually compatible, or you're not. If you're not, you can either live with the resulting issues, or you can move on and seek someone who is more compatible. Having tried to live with it before, I finally decided I needed to move on, and now recommend the same to anyone with this problem. Most of the time, moving on will lead to greater happiness, IMO (and experience).


And I totally support this mindset This idea that the LD is punishing the HD or "taking advantage" or anything else is bunk. In the end the two of you aren't compatible. And as sad as it is, you might need to divorce/break up and move on.

But I see that as the far better alternative than some of the other recommendations which amount to playing emotional and psychological warfare on a partner to "break them down" to get them to do things they really aren't interested in. Because if really your "win" is how you "got a woman to do X" that really says something kind of scary about you, IMHO.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Starstarfish said:


> And I totally support this mindset This idea that the LD is punishing the HD or "taking advantage" or anything else is bunk. In the end the two of you aren't compatible. And as sad as it is, you might need to divorce/break up and move on.
> 
> 
> 
> But I see that as the far better alternative than some of the other recommendations which amount to playing emotional and psychological warfare on a partner to "break them down" to get them to do things they really aren't interested in. Because if really your "win" is how you "got a woman to do X" that really says something kind of scary about you, IMHO.




The thing is once you finally try to break up, the partner often decides to change. Then you have to figure out if it's real or just some kind of misguided desperation.


----------



## Starstarfish

WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is once you finally try to break up, the partner often decides to change. Then you have to figure out if it's real or just some kind of misguided desperation.


Honestly, if things have to reach that level for things to change, I'd say that's an answer in and of itself. I wouldn't even try and figure it out. If you were truly compatible and on the same page, things wouldn't have reached that level.


----------



## Vega

Starstarfish said:


> And I totally support this mindset This idea that the LD is punishing the HD or "taking advantage" or anything else is bunk. *In the end the two of you aren't compatible*. And as sad as it is, you might need to divorce/break up and move on.


I really wonder what sexual "compatibility" means. 

It seems that for the most part, if we meet someone, have sex with them and like what we have, we make the assumption that they will _always_ be like that. Hence, we deem our partner to be sexually "compatible" with us and that they will *never* change. Even if we have sex with them for several years or even decades, we assume they'll never change. 

While I understand that sometimes sex _doesn't_ change, many times it does. It may take even take several decades before these changes take place(marrying at 25 and going through menopause or ED at 45) or it can become evident right after the honeymoon or birth of a baby. 

And there's no way to predict whether or not our partner will change. 

IMHO, when it comes to sexual compatibility, it doesn't seem realistic to marry someone based on how much sex or what kind of sex you're having with them "_now_", even if you've been having a fairly consistent sex life with them for 3,4 or even 8+ years.


----------



## DrSher

I think most people get that "times have changed". However, she let the cat out of the sack. It also seems like she enjoyed it and found it fun. Any man has reason to get some explanation of this or most would think she really doesn't love me THAT much. I could not wake up to this cold attitude a morning longer. 

Again, don't get married too early. You can always get something younger than yourself as well. Don't accept being treated like garbage. Women MAY have control over us when we are younger, but if you can stay cool and on your feet it gets easier and easier. 

The only reason for marriage in these days is to entrap the man. This, and put an extra tag upon him in case he wants to break out. Clearly some disagree, but if you get sex less than once a week; always hounded and always something being your fault I can understand why many men, even in their early 30's are looking for exit strategies, or never choose to enter to begin with. 

Finally, the feminist movement has set this up. The constant mobbing and dumbing down on a man's feelings and emotions are just as much so. 
In many ways, I am supportive of the feminists. They clutter together and keep themselves out of sight. And they also keep reminding you why 
you should focus more upon being a man than a (gentle) man. The only way feminism will fly is through force...


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> The best result that can come of this discussion would be for men and women to realize how the other gender thinks about this and to take that into consideration.


I think this is a mistake. Genders don't think. How we think is affected by our gender which influences our experience. But otherwise PEOPLE think.



> The worst that can happen is for each gender to just tell the other that they're wrong for thinking the way they do.
> 
> Mostly we get the latter.


That is fair.


----------



## MAJDEATH

The short answer to the post question is: "because you are not them." Including physically. My W can't do things with me that she could possible do with another guy, depending on his size. And vice-versa.


----------



## samyeagar

Catherine602 said:


> I know its a zombie but I think it's still a good discussion.
> 
> Men feel that love is involved in a woman's choice to do sex acts but in reality, for women, it's just a choice. Women usually don't base their feelings of love for their partner on sex acts like men appear to do. It's a basic difference between the sexes.
> 
> A woman can love her husband and show it is numerous ways. He may not value or appreciate the ways she shows her love and that can lead to problem. This may be one reason that some women feel that all her husband thinks about is sex or all he wants her for is sex or he thinks the only thing that is important in the whole relationship is sex.
> 
> When she says this, it means she does not feel loved any more than he does. They are both wrong. Sexual likes and dislikes develop over time and with experience. In youth, people try things and stop because they don't like or because their taste change.
> 
> Women may feel pressure to do certain sex acts to fit a norm when they are young and maturing sexually. As they mature, they gain confidence to express their likes and dislikes. If men and women knew that love is not predicated on sex acts, likes and dislikes would cease to be so highly charged.
> 
> Differences in sexual taste would assume it's rightful place in the relationship, like all differences, it's one more thing to work out a compromise. Isn't that the hallmark of a successful relationship?


There is a subtle difference between feeling loved and feeling desired. While those things are very often related to each other and occur simultaneously in a relationship, they are also mutually exclusive, One is not necessarily predicated on the other.

Being completely honest and speaking for myself, though I know a lot of men, and many right here on TAM feel the same way...

If it came down to it, and we could only be either one or the other...

A great husband, father, listener, supporter, provider, fixer of things, while only being mediocre in bed, and ok to look at...

or...

A weak knee inducing, panty dropping, smoking hot, best ever in the sack, while only being an OK husband...

I'd take the second every single time.

If it came down to it, and my wife could only tell her friends one thing about me, I'd rather her say I'm hot and great in bed than say I'm a good listener and provider every single day of the week.


----------



## Vega

samyeagar said:


> If it came down to it, and my wife could only tell her friends one thing about me, I'd rather her say I'm hot and great in bed than say I'm a good listener and provider every single day of the week.


I didn't leave my late husband because he was great in the sack.

I left him because he was an egotistical, selfish, controlling, narcissistic, negative, whinny, all around immature man. 

Once I came to that realization, I _stopped_ having sex with him.


----------



## Personal

samyeagar said:


> If it came down to it, and my wife could only tell her friends one thing about me, I'd rather her say I'm hot and great in bed than say I'm a good listener and provider every single day of the week.


I'd rather be liked for being good company and support over just being attractive and or good in bed (I figure the former feeds into the latter).


----------



## samyeagar

Personal said:


> I'd rather be liked for being good company and support over just being attractive and or good in bed (*I figure the former feeds into the latter*).


And that is the mistake many men make...they feel as if their wives will be more attracted to them, find them more physically desirable if they are all those other non-physical things...the whole vacuum your way into her pants thing. They are interconnected for sure, frequently occur simultaneously, but are still mutually exclusive things.

Yes, those things do play a part, but more often than not only in the negative...a wife who is lukewarm in her physical desire for her husband typically isn't suddenly going to get hot in a visceral, raw way because he is a good cook and carries his load around the house, but she will get cold very quickly if he doesn't.

The flip side of that, if she's totally into him physically on a base physical, level...if he trips all of her physical triggers, he's likely going to be able to get away with being a bit less of a great husband.


----------



## Holdingontoit

SY: has nailed it. It is not reciprocal. If you are hot (in your partner's eyes), you will get sex even if you treat your partner poorly. If you are not hot in your partner's eyes, you won't get much sex even if you treat them well and you'll get no sex at all if you treat them poorly.


----------



## TX-SC

So, to play devil's advocate here... 

If in my previous relationships I was very emotionally present, hugging and saying I love you quite often, but in my marriage I decide that I have grown out of that and just don't want to show my emotions, then it's not my wife's place to keep asking for this "emotional support?" The fact that I was more affectionate in past relationships is none of her business? What I did or how I acted before her is my business only? 

The problem here is that we sometimes feel like we are less attractive to our partners than their previous partner was. Or, we may feel like we were manipulated if our wife did certain things before marriage then stopped after. Lets say my wife gave me a BJ every time we had sex, then within a year after marriage just stopped completely. Would that not be a bit manipulative? The common thinking here is that she has a RIGHT to do only what she likes, and I agree, but why lead us on with this? Why not just say you won't do it from the beginning so we know what we are getting into? 

Now, before we go any farther, I suspect that many women here would be seriously pissed if their husband refused oral after marriage. It goes both ways...


----------



## I Don't Know

TX-SC said:


> So, to play devil's advocate here...
> 
> If in my previous relationships I was very emotionally present, hugging and saying I love you quite often, but in my marriage I decide that I have grown out of that and just don't want to show my emotions, then it's not my wife's place to keep asking for this "emotional support?" The fact that I was more affectionate in past relationships is none of her business? What I did or how I acted before her is my business only?
> 
> That's exactly what many here will tell you. That this relationship is this relationship and she has to choose to be in it or not based on how it is. Now I suspect the reality is that should most people find themselves in the situation you described, most would be highly po'd and wonder why they don't deserve these things that you gave freely to other women.
> 
> The problem here is that we sometimes feel like we are less attractive to our partners than their previous partner was. Or, we may feel like we were manipulated if our wife did certain things before marriage then stopped after. Lets say my wife gave me a BJ every time we had sex, then within a year after marriage just stopped completely. Would that not be a bit manipulative? The common thinking here is that she has a RIGHT to do only what she likes, and I agree, but why lead us on with this? Why not just say you won't do it from the beginning so we know what we are getting into?
> 
> Now, before we go any farther, I suspect that many women here would be seriously pissed if their husband refused oral after marriage. It goes both ways...


----------



## bandit.45

Catherine602 said:


> Differences in sexual taste would assume it's rightful place in the relationship, like all differences, it's one more thing to work out a compromise. Isn't that the hallmark of a successful relationship?


Yep. 

And it is up to the couple to decide before they marry if they can compromise. 

And you know, it's not always the wife who is holding back. Some men don't like smacking a woman's ass and pulling her hair during sex, as they have been trained to see this as abusive, and yet many women love this kind of light roughness during sex. So if a wife demands her husband choke her during intercourse, but he won't, should she compromise? 

Compromise is fine and good to a degree, but it should never trump sexual compatibility. A couple need to decide if they are compatible in all ways before marriage to ensure things go as smoothly as possible. It is funny to me how sexual needs never seem to be a part of the checklist. 

My ex-wife and I had no issues in the bedroom. We both enjoyed adventurous, vigorous and sometimes playfully rough sex. Sex was never our problem. We satisfied each other and then some. It was other areas in our life where our compatibility diverged: namely fidelity, loyalty and financial goals. 

You have to have a balance of everything...BEFORE entering into marriage.


----------



## firefairy

Coming from an ex party girl with plenty of stories to share. I have had experiences in my late teens and early twenties. Some were awesome experiences that I enjoyed. A few regrets. BUT do I want to repeat every crazy thing I did when I was younger with my H, NO! Why?? Because I’m not that girl anymore. That was a phase in my life. I grew up, I matured, I changed. Stop trying to measure up to her past and/or punishing her for having a more exciting past than you!!

I'm having a slow day at work but didn't have time to read 113 pages.. so I'm jumping in the convo a bit late. Sorry if I'm not up to speed on the topic.


----------



## samyeagar

TX-SC said:


> So, to play devil's advocate here...
> 
> If in my previous relationships I was very emotionally present, hugging and saying I love you quite often, but in my marriage I decide that I have grown out of that and just don't want to show my emotions, then it's not my wife's place to keep asking for this "emotional support?" The fact that I was more affectionate in past relationships is none of her business? What I did or how I acted before her is my business only?
> 
> The problem here is that we sometimes feel like we are less attractive to our partners than their previous partner was. Or, we may feel like we were manipulated if our wife did certain things before marriage then stopped after. Lets say my wife gave me a BJ every time we had sex, then within a year after marriage just stopped completely. Would that not be a bit manipulative? The common thinking here is that she has a RIGHT to do only what she likes, and I agree, but why lead us on with this? Why not just say you won't do it from the beginning so we know what we are getting into?
> 
> Now, before we go any farther, I suspect that many women here would be seriously pissed if their husband refused oral after marriage. It goes both ways...


To go along with this a bit...

My wife, while fully acknowledging the unfairness of it, does feel the whole...you did it for her, why not for me...thing from time to time.

Most recently was when we were looking for a new house. She found a few that she really liked, but I was the voice of reason and pointed out how we would not be able to afford them. I allowed my ex wife to drive us to bankruptcy and foreclosure, and I am never going to allow that to happen again. I will drop the veto hammer without second thought. At one point my wife actually said the words...you found a way to make it happen for her...

This is not even remotely a male only phenomenon...


----------



## bandit.45

I get sick of talking about it. My feeling is, if a guy likes certain sex acts and his GF/fiancee doesn't want to do them, even if she did them and enjoyed them with previous partners, then he has the option to break up wit her and not pursue marriage. 

Simple. 

Not so simple when the a married man learns ten years into the marriage that his wife was the Shop Vac, chrome-stripping, blowjob queen of Del Mar High School; yet has refused since their wedding night to go down on him. There is so much at stake, yet he has the option to divorce her if he wants, even if she was a great wife in 90% of all other aspects of their marriage. 

That is why the courts gave us no-fault divorce. We can check out of a marriage any time if we so choose, for any reason we want. 

No shoes, no shirt, no service? 

No BJs, no oral, no marriage...


----------



## Vega

Holdingontoit said:


> SY: *If you are hot (in your partner's eyes), you will get sex even if you treat your partner poorly*.


Oh yeah? Maybe. But for _how long_? 

If that "hot" guy wants his wife to stay married to him, he'd better bring more to the table than JUST smokin' hot sex. 

If he treats her poorly for any length of time, she _will_ either leave him eventually-no matter how "hot" either he or she thinks he is- or she'll simply lose interest in having sex _with him_.


----------



## Truthseeker1




----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> Oh yeah? Maybe. But for _how long_?
> 
> If that "hot" guy wants his wife to stay married to him, he'd better bring more to the table than JUST smokin' hot sex.
> 
> If he treats her poorly for any length of time, she _will_ either leave him eventually-no matter how "hot" either he or she thinks he is- or she'll simply lose interest in having sex _with him_.


This is quite true...depending on how badly he treats her.

This is another one of those areas where men and women really aren't all that different...they both put up with that extra bit of crazy that they otherwise wouldn't if they are very physically attracted to their partners.


----------



## TAMAT

Possibly the difference is how out actions are responed to.

A "bad boy" gets sex for the smallest of good behaviors, holding the door for her while he is texting. Perhaps because the good things he does are so rare they are remembered.

A "good guy" gets denied sex for the smallest of bad behaviors, not using his turn signal once when driving her to the doctor. Perhaps because the bad things he does are so rare they are remembered.

Tamat


----------



## MAJDEATH

My W tells me how sexy I am and that it makes her want to do "things" with me when she sees that really big, full thing in my pants: 


































my wallet!


----------



## Catherine602

samyeagar said:


> There is a subtle difference between feeling loved and feeling desired. While those things are very often related to each other and occur simultaneously in a relationship, they are also mutually exclusive, One is not necessarily predicated on the other.
> 
> Being completely honest and speaking for myself, though I know a lot of men, and many right here on TAM feel the same way...
> 
> If it came down to it, and we could only be either one or the other...
> 
> A great husband, father, listener, supporter, provider, fixer of things, while only being mediocre in bed, and ok to look at...
> 
> or...
> 
> A weak knee inducing, panty dropping, smoking hot, best ever in the sack, while only being an OK husband...
> 
> I'd take the second every single time.
> 
> If it came down to it, and my wife could only tell her friends one thing about me, I'd rather her say I'm hot and great in bed than say I'm a good listener and provider every single day of the week.


It's natural to want to be the object of desire but a mistake to assume that it is predicated on your male gender and something lacking in your partner. 

We all have flights of unrealistic expectations and entitlements. If given a choice, would your wife have loose panties for you or some Zac Efron looking dude? 

Would it help to realize that your longing for unquestioned admiration and devotion is not unique to men? Everyone wants their every desire handed to them without lifting a finger to prove themselves worthy.


----------



## Buddy400

I Don't Know said:


> That's exactly what many here will tell you. That this relationship is this relationship and she has to choose to be in it or not based on how it is. Now I suspect the reality is that should most people find themselves in the situation you described, most would be highly po'd and wonder why they don't deserve these things that you gave freely to other women.


But, in previous threads, women have claimed not to have a problem with something like this happening.


----------



## Buddy400

TX-SC said:


> Lets say my wife gave me a BJ every time we had sex, then within a year after marriage just stopped completely. Would that not be a bit manipulative? The common thinking here is that she has a RIGHT to do only what she likes, and I agree, but why lead us on with this? *Why not just say you won't do it from the beginning so we know what we are getting into? *


Because they don;t know that they aren't going to want to do this later. 

I think in 98% of the cases, it's not a conscious decision.


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> To go along with this a bit...
> 
> My wife, while fully acknowledging the unfairness of it, does feel the whole...you did it for her, why not for me...thing from time to time.
> 
> Most recently was when we were looking for a new house. She found a few that she really liked, but I was the voice of reason and pointed out how we would not be able to afford them. I allowed my ex wife to drive us to bankruptcy and foreclosure, and I am never going to allow that to happen again. I will drop the veto hammer without second thought. At one point my wife actually said the words...you found a way to make it happen for her...
> 
> This is not even remotely a male only phenomenon...


Many attempts have been made on TAM to get women understand using analogies such as this.

I makes sense to me.

But I've never seen it work.


----------



## Buddy400

firefairy said:


> Coming from an ex party girl with plenty of stories to share. I have had experiences in my late teens and early twenties. Some were awesome experiences that I enjoyed. A few regrets. BUT do I want to repeat every crazy thing I did when I was younger with my H, NO! Why?? Because I’m not that girl anymore. That was a phase in my life. I grew up, I matured, I changed. Stop trying to measure up to her past and/or punishing her for having a more exciting past than you!!
> 
> I'm having a slow day at work but didn't have time to read 113 pages.. so I'm jumping in the convo a bit late. Sorry if I'm not up to speed on the topic.


Is your husband aware of the "awesome experiences that I enjoyed" previously but wouldn't repeat with him even if he would like you to?


----------



## samyeagar

Buddy400 said:


> Many attempts have been made on TAM to get women understand using analogies such as this.
> 
> I makes sense to me.
> 
> But I've never seen it work.


I know 

The thing is, this is another one of those things where men and women are really not all that different, it's just that the same feelings tend to manifest in different situations. I think the biggest part of the disconnect comes when some people compartimentalize sex into it's own category set apart from all other things in the relationship, assign it it's own set of rules...yet tie the desire to have sex back into the non sexual things. It is really hard to have it both ways...which is why I think it is important to understand that there is a distinction between...love, admiration, trust, respect...and...raw, physical, visceral, lustful, attraction.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> or...
> 
> A weak knee inducing, panty dropping, smoking hot, best ever in the sack, while only being an OK husband...
> 
> I'd take the second every single time.
> 
> If it came down to it, and my wife could only tell her friends one thing about me, I'd rather her say I'm hot and great in bed than say I'm a good listener and provider every single day of the week.


Here is the thing that has me wondering lately. About this and every other my wife is not hot for me thread. Are you? Are you panty dropping, smoking hot, best ever in the sack?

I always wonder why no one ever seems to ask themselves this. I know my husband has wanted me to FEEL this way while not really thinking too much about whether he WAS this way. It was enlightening to discuss.


----------



## firefairy

Buddy400 - Yes he is aware of my past experience. We had plenty of fun experiences together. He didn't feel the need to reenact everything I tried before I met him.


----------



## *Deidre*

In reading through some of this thread and others here, it makes me wonder...are most marriages unhappy in the sex department? There are a few good stories out there, but not enough. Even my friends who are in their late 20's, early 30's...they have been married a short time, and already complain about the lack of sex, or quality of it, even. Just makes one wonder why so many people's sex lives go downhill after marriage?


----------



## Anon1111

NobodySpecial said:


> Here is the thing that has me wondering lately. About this and every other my wife is not hot for me thread. Are you? Are you panty dropping, smoking hot, best ever in the sack?
> 
> I always wonder why no one ever seems to ask themselves this. I know my husband has wanted me to FEEL this way while not really thinking too much about whether he WAS this way. It was enlightening to discuss.


I think this is a crucial question.

I think you need to eliminate any doubt surrounding this in your mind before you conclude that it's not just you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

firefairy said:


> Buddy400 - Yes he is aware of my past experience. We had plenty of fun experiences together. He didn't feel the need to reenact everything I tried before I met him.




Don't you also have a thread that he doesn't give you enough sexual attention? You don't think there's any connection? The fact that you were more adventurous with other men and now he can't be bothered to try? Does he enjoy being in second or third place?


----------



## Buddy400

firefairy said:


> Buddy400 - Yes he is aware of my past experience. We had plenty of fun experiences together. He didn't feel the need to reenact everything I tried before I met him.


To be more specific, are there things that your husband would like you to do, which you have done previously and which you enjoyed at the time but which you would refuse to do with your husband?

My wife has a heck of a past.

She has done things that I am not interested in (whether she enjoyed them or not).

I don't have a problem with any of that.

I probably would have a problem if I wanted to do something which she had done and enjoyed in the past and she didn't want to do it with me.


----------



## Anon1111

*Deidre* said:


> In reading through some of this thread and others here, it makes me wonder...are most marriages unhappy in the sex department? There are a few good stories out there, but not enough. Even my friends who are in their late 20's, early 30's...they have been married a short time, and already complain about the lack of sex, or quality of it, even. Just makes one wonder why so many people's sex lives go downhill after marriage?


unclear if most are unhealthy but a significant percentage are

it's doubtful that people are designed to mate with 1 person for life


----------



## Buddy400

*Deidre* said:


> Just makes one wonder why so many people's sex lives go downhill after marriage?


I think that modern idea that people should only have sex if they really, really want to keeps people from feeling that they have to work on it.

Also the idea that sex is in some special category different form all others where compromise is not allowed.


----------



## Anon1111

Buddy400 said:


> I think that modern idea that people should only have sex if they really, really want to keeps people from feeling that they have to work on it.
> 
> Also the idea that sex is in some special category different form all others where compromise is not allowed.


I used to agree, but I came around to the other side.

why would you want to have sex with a woman who doesn't really want it?

what's the point?


----------



## NobodySpecial

*Deidre* said:


> In reading through some of this thread and others here, it makes me wonder...are most marriages unhappy in the sex department? There are a few good stories out there, but not enough. Even my friends who are in their late 20's, early 30's...they have been married a short time, and already complain about the lack of sex, or quality of it, even. Just makes one wonder why so many people's sex lives go downhill after marriage?


People who have great sex lives just don't bother talking about it. They run home for sex!


----------



## bandit.45

*Deidre* said:


> In reading through some of this thread and others here, it makes me wonder...are most marriages unhappy in the sex department? There are a few good stories out there, but not enough. Even my friends who are in their late 20's, early 30's...they have been married a short time, and already complain about the lack of sex, or quality of it, even. Just makes one wonder why so many people's sex lives go downhill after marriage?


Eddie Murphy once had a routine where he talked about sex being like a cracker to a starving man. You give a starving man a cracker and it is the best food he has ever had. "Man I love this cracker! This is the best cracker I ever had! I want more!" 

He gorges on crackers. But once full it is like "aw man another cracker?" 

I think that is the way sex is in marriage. Once a man and woman get comfortable in their marriage the sex naturally becomes routine. Routine doesn't necessarily mean bad: the sex can be very fulfilling and satisfying, but it is far from the hot, exciting, drywall cracking sex they had when they were first dating and falling in love. 

I think there are some people who get bent out of shape when the sex doesn't stay fresh and exciting. They somehow think they are missing out on something they never tried before, and then they get selfish and resentful. 

But then there are some couples where one are both partners just get lazy. They let the sex slide, like they let everything else slide in their relationship.


----------



## Anon1111

Banned-It.45 said:


> Eddie Murphy once had a routine where he talked about sex being like a cracker to a starving man. You give a starving man a cracker and it is the best food he has ever had. "Man I love this cracker! This is the best cracker I ever had! I want more!"
> 
> He gorges on crackers. But once full it is like "aw man another cracker?"
> 
> I think that is the way sex is in marriage. Once a man and woman get comfortable in their marriage the sex naturally becomes routine. Routine doesn't necessarily mean bad: the sex can be very fulfilling and satisfying, but it is far from the hot, exciting, drywall cracking sex they had when they were first dating and falling in love.
> 
> I think there are some people who get bent out of shape when the sex doesn't stay fresh and exciting. They somehow think they are missing out on something they never tried before, and then they get selfish and resentful.
> 
> But then there are some couples where one are both partners just get lazy. They let the sex slide, like they let everything else slide in their relationship.


I think people ascribe too much intentionality to this stuff.

people change over time. there is a natural trajectory that most relationships follow. none of this is intentional.

like a garden, this stuff can be tended to. a good gardener can often make a sh-tty garden bloom, but not everything is controllable. 

even the best gardener shouldn't be blamed for the change of seasons, temperature, rainfall, etc.

I put desire in the "change of seasons" category. when it's spring, it's spring. when it's winter, it's winter.


----------



## Fozzy

Anon1111 said:


> I think people ascribe too much intentionality to this stuff.
> 
> people change over time. there is a natural trajectory that most relationships follow. none of this is intentional.
> 
> like a garden, this stuff can be tended to. a good gardener can often make a sh-tty garden bloom, but not everything is controllable.
> 
> even the best gardener shouldn't be blamed for the change of seasons, temperature, rainfall, etc.
> 
> I put desire in the "change of seasons" category. when it's spring, it's spring. when it's winter, it's winter.











_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

Vega said:


> Oh yeah? Maybe. But for _how long_?
> 
> If that "hot" guy wants his wife to stay married to him, he'd better bring more to the table than JUST smokin' hot sex.


Agree, he likely will not remain hot in her eyes for long if her treats her poorly. So what? Does not in any way undercut my point. 

WHILE his partner viewed him as hot, he was getting lots of sex even if he was treating her poorly. While a guy's wife views him as not hot, he won't be getting much sex no matter how well he treats her.

The key if you are starting from a place where you are not having frequent satisfying sex is to be with a lady who sees you as hot. If your current partner does not view you as hot, spend a few months (emphasis on few) trying to get hotter in her eyes. This might include losing weight, hitting the gym, getting new clothes, hairstyle, rocking it at work, treating her with more love and respect, or whatever axis you think you are coming up short on the hotness scale. If after a few months she shows no increased sexual interest, then it is reasonable to reach the conclusion that she probably won't ever view you as hot or that the effort to become hot in her eyes is excessive and unsustainable. At that point it is reasonable to decide to get out of the relationship and go find a woman who finds you hot with a level of effort and investment on the guy's part that is sustainable long term.

Or decide that you want to stay married despite the lack of satisfying sex. But that makes the lack of sex your own fault for not leaving, not her fault for not desiring you more.

And yes, many of us who are not getting much sex are not smoking hot and don't provide mind boggling sex. So of course our partners are not all that hot for us. Difficult to accept but all too true in many cases. 

Another difficult part in many cases is getting one's partner to admit this dynamic exists. Many woman do not want their husband spending lots of time in the gym getting a killer body. They want him at work. They want him helping with the kids and the household chores. They want him listening to her hopes and dreams for the future and devoting his time to helping those dreams come true. Unless HER hope and dream is his having a killer body, she might actually be opposed to his "wasting" lots of time on that. Plus, the more he gets into shape, the more pressure she feels to do so as well. She might not want that much pressure as to her looks, weight, etc. That is why these issues can become so complicated. It is not always in each partner's self-interest to admit the truth.


----------



## bandit.45

Anon1111 said:


> I put desire in the "change of seasons" category. when it's spring, it's spring. when it's winter, it's winter.


My grandparents never got to winter. They were doing the hokey pokey until they were in their 70s. I know: I walked in on them once. You don't get that image out of your head easily, believe me.


----------



## *Deidre*

Banned-It.45 said:


> Eddie Murphy once had a routine where he talked about sex being like a cracker to a starving man. You give a starving man a cracker and it is the best food he has ever had. "Man I love this cracker! This is the best cracker I ever had! I want more!"
> 
> He gorges on crackers. But once full it is like "aw man another cracker?"
> 
> I think that is the way sex is in marriage. Once a man and woman get comfortable in their marriage the sex naturally becomes routine. Routine doesn't necessarily mean bad: the sex can be very fulfilling and satisfying, but it is far from the hot, exciting, drywall cracking sex they had when they were first dating and falling in love.
> 
> I think there are some people who get bent out of shape when the sex doesn't stay fresh and exciting. They somehow think they are missing out on something they never tried before, and then they get selfish and resentful.
> 
> But then there are some couples where one are both partners just get lazy. They let the sex slide, like they let everything else slide in their relationship.


This makes sense, yea. I think that the newness maybe wears off for people in long relationships? But, it seems that people tend to take their spouses for grated after a time, not just wish sex, but in reading threads here, seems like it happens too frequently. I'm learning a lot though, so when I marry someday, maybe there'll be less mistakes made. lol


----------



## bandit.45

*Deidre* said:


> This makes sense, yea. I think that the newness maybe wears off for people in long relationships? But, it seems that people tend to take their spouses for grated after a time, not just wish sex, but in reading threads here, seems like it happens too frequently. I'm learning a lot though, so when I marry someday, maybe there'll be less mistakes made. lol


The disconnect usually happens when the kiddies come along.


----------



## Anon1111

Banned-It.45 said:


> My grandparents never got to winter. They were doing the hokey pokey until they were in their 70s. I know: I walked in on them once. You don't get that image out of your head easily, believe me.


that is awesome for them, but I think it's pretty rare.

unfortunately, many people are disappointed when their relationships turn out to not be so exceptional.

people often assume someone must be at fault if it doesn't turn out this way, but there is comparatively little questioning of whether it is reasonable to assume it should work out this way.


----------



## I Don't Know

Buddy400 said:


> Many attempts have been made on TAM to get women understand using analogies such as this.
> 
> I makes sense to me.
> 
> But I've never seen it work.


I believe there is something that would make them feel the same way we do. It may be a few different things for different people but there has to be something that gets the point across.

Husband used to give flowers to an ex, doesn't do it for his wife.
Husband used to give oral to ex, now doesn't.
Used to buy jewelry, now doesn't.
Used to write love letters, now doesn't.
Used to talk into the early hours of morning with his ex and open his soul, doesn't do this with his wife and is pretty closed up.

Finding the right analogy isn't the challenge, IMO. It's getting them to admit to it when we do.


----------



## uhtred

After many years of trying, I've given up. For a LD person there is nothing that is comparable to sex. 





I Don't Know said:


> I believe there is something that would make them feel the same way we do. It may be a few different things for different people but there has to be something that gets the point across.
> 
> Husband used to give flowers to an ex, doesn't do it for his wife.
> Husband used to give oral to ex, now doesn't.
> Used to buy jewelry, now doesn't.
> Used to write love letters, now doesn't.
> Used to talk into the early hours of morning with his ex and open his soul, doesn't do this with his wife and is pretty closed up.
> 
> Finding the right analogy isn't the challenge, IMO. It's getting them to admit to it when we do.


----------



## I Don't Know

uhtred said:


> After many years of trying, I've given up. For a LD person there is nothing that is comparable to sex.


It's not just LD people. There are some people on TAM that sound like they are fairly HD, but they don't agree that swinging from the ceiling fan sex with an ex versus vanilla sex with the current reflects on the level of attraction felt. 

They don't understand that it's not about being owed something. It's about feeling like you are your SO's #1 choice, not that you won by default.


----------



## Starstarfish

I Don't Know said:


> I believe there is something that would make them feel the same way we do. It may be a few different things for different people but there has to be something that gets the point across.
> 
> Husband used to give flowers to an ex, doesn't do it for his wife.
> Husband used to give oral to ex, now doesn't.
> Used to buy jewelry, now doesn't.
> Used to write love letters, now doesn't.
> Used to talk into the early hours of morning with his ex and open his soul, doesn't do this with his wife and is pretty closed up.
> 
> Finding the right analogy isn't the challenge, IMO. It's getting them to admit to it when we do.


In my thread where I discussed my issues, I mentioned some things like this. The feedback was basically was far from sympathetic. Indeed, some people were kind of hostile. I'd argue that people complaining about those kinds of things do not overall get the same level of sympathy as complaints about sex. 

His Needs/Her Needs is a book often recommended so that people can understand how important an attractive spouse and sex is from the male perspective in a relationship. And yet the female aspects (like financial security) mentioned in there do not get the same reaction from what I can see. Complaints about finances are met with calls that women should work towards their own goals, are moochers, only marry for "cash and prizes" etc. 

The Five Love Languages are the same. Everyone agrees that "Physical Touch" is a legit request. But if you are someone who likes spontaneous gifts? "You are just saying that to get free stuff."

So does sex have an equivalent to some people? Yes. And do people understand that? Yes. And can people feel rightfully upset if they don't feel they are getting the "end all"? Sure. But I rarely really see these things being seen as equivalent when lack of sex isn't being discussed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I Don't Know said:


> They don't understand that it's not about being owed something. It's about feeling like you are your SO's #1 choice, not that you won by default.


Here's the thing. You can be your SO's #1 choice for a life partner without being their #1 (only) super mega hottie. Sucks for some I guess. But it is true. Sex is not static. DH and I enjoy a pretty fun and wild sex life. But that does not change that he loved the intense, eyes wide open, slow sex with his ex. He never compared her need for a lot of foreplay to warm up with my good to go anytime anywhere. He never compared her long and slow intensity to me. We are just different.


----------



## uhtred

I think most people want to be desired and hate the idea that they are the one their partner "settled" for. There are all sorts of reasons someone might not want to engage in one particular sex act, but for their partner it can leave the nagging feeling that it is because they are not desired. 


Its similar if someone stops doing something that they used to do in a relationship.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I think most people want to be desired and hate the idea that they are the one their partner "settled" for.


Just because a person may not be the red hot sexual desire of someone's life does not mean that they "settled". Marriage is so much more than just sex.

Aside from that, one might WANT that. But one might not GET that.


----------



## uhtred

True. 
OTOH, imagine if a woman found out that when her husband was dating another woman he used to a couple of times a month come home early from work and have a candle-lit dinner waiting for her. He says that he no longer does that because its a lot of effort and he can't easily get time off work without getting up really early. 

Marriage also so much more than food, but I think it would be easy to feel like he just didn't have the same romantic feelings. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Just because a person may not be the red hot sexual desire of someone's life does not mean that they "settled". Marriage is so much more than just sex.
> 
> Aside from that, one might WANT that. But one might not GET that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> True.
> OTOH, imagine if a woman found out that when her husband was dating another woman he used to a couple of times a month come home early from work and have a candle-lit dinner waiting for her. He says that he no longer does that because its a lot of effort and he can't easily get time off work without getting up really early.
> 
> Marriage also so much more than food, but I think it would be easy to feel like he just didn't have the same romantic feelings.


Yah. And what if that is the TRUTH? I KNOW my husband does not have the same romantic feelings for me than he does for his ex. He has a lot of romantic feelings for me. They are based on very different things. He actually has MORE romantic feelings for her than for me. They more closely share (what I view as a moronic) sense of humor and squishy, mushy lovey dovey stuff that I can DO but do not feel. Did that smart a bit when I first heard this? Sure. But he also has nearly zero respect for her. He has a ton of respect for me. He has WAY less intellectual connection with her and a ton with me. He sees the mother that I am and compared to her.... I am laughing my ass off at the comparison. 

He chose me. He actually had an opportunity to not chose me. He didn't. He chose me. There have been people in my life that I connected better with than DH. Yet I chose him. 

We can get butt sore over the difference between ourselves and our exes. Or we can accept each others' feelings. The former makes us weak and unattractive. The latter actually increases both feelings of appreciation and attraction.

YMMV.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I tend to agree with NS, with one caveat. I think if someone is basically satisfied with their sex life, then it is fairly easy to overlook what your spouse did with their exes. On the other hand, if someone is NOT satisfied with their current sex life, finding out that their spouse did things for someone else that they won't do now (and that would bring the current sex life closer to what the disappointed partner wants but isn't getting), then that hurts ALOT. Precisely because that tends to verify that the "shortfall" isn't because the "withholding" spouse does not have the capacity to provide more, but instead that the "withholding" spouse isn't all that hot for the "deprived" spouse.

Still, what NS says is correct as to the go forward advice. Don't whine and mope - that is unattractive. Get yourself as hot as you can, see it if makes a difference. If not, decide if you are content to be the respected and loved choice even if you aren't the hungered for choice. If you can't accept not being hungered for, then get out and find someone who hungers for you.


----------



## uhtred

Generally agree. One issues though is that at NS and other have said, there is a lot more to marriage than sex. Its possible to be very uhhappy about your sex life, but still on balance want to stay married for other reasons (kids etc). That doesn't mean you are happy, it just means that you are taking the least bad of several bad options.






Holdingontoit said:


> I tend to agree with NS, with one caveat. I think if someone is basically satisfied with their sex life, then it is fairly easy to overlook what your spouse did with their exes. On the other hand, if someone is NOT satisfied with their current sex life, finding out that their spouse did things for someone else that they won't do now (and that would bring the current sex life closer to what the disappointed partner wants but isn't getting), then that hurts ALOT. Precisely because that tends to verify that the "shortfall" isn't because the "withholding" spouse does not have the capacity to provide more, but instead that the "withholding" spouse isn't all that hot for the "deprived" spouse.
> 
> Still, what NS says is correct as to the go forward advice. Don't whine and mope - that is unattractive. Get yourself as hot as you can, see it if makes a difference. If not, decide if you are content to be the respected and loved choice even if you aren't the hungered for choice. If you can't accept not being hungered for, then get out and find someone who hungers for you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> I tend to agree with NS, with one caveat. I think if someone is basically satisfied with their sex life, then it is fairly easy to overlook what your spouse did with their exes. On the other hand, if someone is NOT satisfied with their current sex life, finding out that their spouse did things for someone else that they won't do now (and that would bring the current sex life closer to what the disappointed partner wants but isn't getting),


I think that viewing sexuality as "things you do", particular FOR, is such a twisted view of achieving sexual satisfaction that it is no wonder there is a miss between many partners.


----------



## Phil Anders

NobodySpecial said:


> Here's the thing. You can be your SO's #1 choice for a life partner without being their #1 (only) super mega hottie. Sucks for some I guess. But it is true. Sex is not static. DH and I enjoy a pretty fun and wild sex life. But that does not change that he loved the intense, eyes wide open, slow sex with his ex. He never compared her need for a lot of foreplay to warm up with my good to go anytime anywhere. He never compared her long and slow intensity to me. We are just different.


Yeah, but what you describe is a style difference between personalities: oranges vs apples. You can prefer one, or appreciate both, according to personal taste, and it's your own fault if you settle for someone whose style doesn't do it for you, or expect them to mimic someone else's style when it just isn't who they are. 

The sticking point here isn't that someone is an orange & can't do applesauce. It's that they were once enthusiastically into sorbet and marmalade, have no easily articulated aversions to these things (which they may even remember fondly or fantasize about), and yet somehow only serve up plain old OJ to their current SO while actively refusing requests for other menu items. 

I wouldn't want to be with someone I couldn't inspire to the full range of her sexual expression, whatever that might be.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> Women may feel pressure to do certain sex acts to fit a norm when they are young and maturing sexually. As they mature, they gain confidence to express their likes and dislikes.



Another reason that most men prefer younger women.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Phil Anders said:


> Yeah, but what you describe is a style difference between personalities: oranges vs apples. You can prefer one, or appreciate both, according to personal taste, and it's your own fault if you settle for someone whose style doesn't do it for you, or expect them to mimic someone else's style when it just isn't who they are.
> 
> The sticking point here isn't that someone is an orange & can't do applesauce. It's that they were once enthusiastically into sorbet and marmalade, have no easily articulated aversions to these things (which they may even remember fondly or fantasize about), and yet somehow only serve up plain old OJ to their current SO while actively refusing requests for other menu items.
> 
> *I wouldn't want to be with someone I couldn't inspire to the full range of her sexual expression, whatever that might be.*


Well I disagree with any given sex act as being indicative of a full range of sexual expression, or that any one person can even achieve that but that said... If that is where your bar is set, rock it. What I object to is the people who whine that their wives did it with him but not with them. That somehow they SHOULD do that FOR them. That is not a reflection of HER sexual expression at all.


----------



## NobodySpecial

notmyrealname4 said:


> Another reason that most men prefer younger women.


Yah why a lot of women are tentative about men's motives. Can you think of anything less caring than wanting sex acts because someone feels pressured to conform rather than as an expression of her own self?


----------



## notmyrealname4

I Don't Know said:


> swinging from the ceiling fan sex




Who the heck ever swung from a ceiling fan or a chandelier, while having sex?

Such a dumb saying; we all repeat it over and over.



Not saying anything about you I Don't Know, it's just an expression you've picked up like everyone else.


I've just always thought it was très stupid.


----------



## Phil Anders

NobodySpecial said:


> Well I disagree with any given sex act as being indicative of a full range of sexual expression, or that any one person can even achieve that but that said... If that is where your bar is set, rock it. What I object to is the people who whine that their wives did it with him but not with them. That somehow they SHOULD do that FOR them. That is not a reflection of HER sexual expression at all.


I guess sex acts are the easiest way to quantify/objectivize sexual adventurousness over longer timeframes. If you did X before but won't now, where X is something non-vanilla, you were either inspired or coerced. If the latter, then it's a moot issue. But if you _were _thus inspired and really got off on it, and there's no clear reason you won't try X with me now (something like "you're too big and anal hurts") then I have to conclude I don't inspire you to feel as open/safe/adventurous as you did with the other person. You just aren't that into me. 

The part about "whining" and speaking of what someone "should" do in that case is another thing entirely. Whining usually doesn't work and isn't sexy...better to make sure I'm holding up my end physically and otherwise. If I still can't inspire that level of passion at my confident best, then it's no fault to her or me, but in that case I would rather move on to someone who does have that mutual intensity, and hope she finds the same in someone other than me.


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## NobodySpecial

Phil Anders said:


> I guess sex acts are the easiest way to quantify/objectivize sexual adventurousness over longer timeframes.


Why would you want to do that!?!?! Only for the purpose of comparing yourself to someone else? You ARE someone else. Time is not the only contributing factor. And why would you want to measure adventurousness over time anyway? What does that get you?



> If you did X before but won't now, where X is something non-vanilla, you were either inspired or coerced. If the latter, then it's a moot issue. But if you _were _thus inspired and really got off on it, and there's no clear reason you won't try X with me now (something like "you're too big and anal hurts") then I have to conclude I don't inspire you to feel as open/safe/adventurous as you did with the other person. You just aren't that into me.


Ugh my ex used to pull the weights and measure thing with me. 
Guess what the result was? I really lost ALL interest in him.


----------



## Phil Anders

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would you want to do that!?!?! Only for the purpose of comparing yourself to someone else? You ARE someone else. Time is not the only contributing factor. And why would you want to measure adventurousness over time anyway? What does that get you?


Like I said, it's a priority for me to inspire my partner to whatever her limits of adventure may be. If that analysis seems too reductionist, then replace it with the Savage-ism "GGG". I know what that looks like, and it doesn't include a bunch of inhibitions and "no-go" zones concerning stuff I want to explore (& which she's enjoyed before & still likes conceptually), and there's no clear rationale. Others might be fine accepting that situation. I'm not. 



> Ugh my ex used to pull the weights and measure thing with me.
> Guess what the result was? I really lost ALL interest in him.


That sounds like whining. This isn't necessarily something I'd need to articulate, merely observe. My last three sexual partners have said to me some version of "I feel like I can let you do anything you want with me." They said that spontaneously, in the heat of the moment, because they both trusted me implicitly and were greatly inspired. 

That's the way I like things. If instead I run into a bunch of rather-nots and mysterious barriers, and I can't ascribe it to fixable shortcomings on my part, I can just move on. No need to make it into a "weights & measures" discussion, which as you pointed out is both ineffective and a giant buzzkill.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Starstarfish said:


> But I rarely really see these things being seen as equivalent when lack of sex isn't being discussed.


I can get other sources of quality time - good friends, close family, spiritual guides or whomever.

If I need more money/material things, I can address this via my boss, asking for overtime etc.

If I want sex in a defined monogamous relationship, what is the alternative source if my partner does not want to meet this need?


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## VladDracul

At the risk of this being already addressed, instead of "you did it for other men, but not me?" what about, "he used to do it for me but you won't"?


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## NobodySpecial

VladDracul said:


> At the risk of this being already addressed, instead of "you did it for other men, but not me?" what about, "he used to do it for me but you won't"?


Just Wrong. Dead Stop.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I agree with NS, but as I said, I think people are talking past one another.

What your partner did or did not do with other people is not relevant to what they should or should not do with you. Doesn't matter that they did something with someone else. That does not affect whether they ought to do it with you. Pressuring someone to do something they are not motivated to do with you now because they did it with someone else in the past is unattractive and unloving.

However, knowing that they did something with someone else that they refuse to do with you now could be useful in terms of exploring openly and honestly why they prefer not to do it with you now. Maybe they only did it because they were young and insecure and felt pressured to do it when they were young. Thank them for sharing and reassure them that you do not want them to feel pressured do things with you that they dislike doing. Maybe they got older and are less flexible or more sensitive and what felt pleasurable to them years ago no longer feels good now. Thank them for sharing, and reassure them both that you don't want them doing anything with you that does not feel good and that you love them and are hot for them.

But if you are finding lots of roadblocks and the reasons for being denied don't seem to add up, it is not unreasonable to express the fear that their refusal to do things with you now that they did with others in the past is evidence that they are not all that hot for you. That still doesn't imply they ought to do it with you now. And you should say that out loud: not asking you to do it. Just asking whether part of the reason you don't want to is not being all that hot for me. And then create a safe space for them to confess unpleasant truths and thank them for sharing even if what they share is painful to hear.

Bottom line: the inconsistency does not have to be a barrier to emotional intimacy. It can be the doorway to emotional intimacy. It can be the spark for a conversation that could be very intimate. But that requires the "deprived" person to put down their pride and anger and frustration and approach the conversation from a place of love. Not so hard to do if you are basically happy with your relationship and your sex life. Quite difficult when you are a seething ball of resentment.


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## norajane

> And you should say that out loud: not asking you to do it. Just asking whether part of the reason you don't want to is not being all that hot for me. And then create a safe space for them to confess unpleasant truths and thank them for sharing even if what they share is painful to hear.


And if they reply and say: 

"NO, no part of the reason I don't want to do X is about not being all that hot for you. It's all about MY development as a sexual person over time and life experience, and isn't about you at all."

Then you have to *accept *that as true instead of continuing to believe and insist that it must be because they aren't hot for you. Otherwise, you are dismissing your partner's perspective, and essentially calling them a liar that you don't trust.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Phil Anders said:


> Like I said, it's a priority for me to inspire my partner to whatever her limits of adventure may be. If that analysis seems too reductionist, then replace it with the Savage-ism "GGG". I know what that looks like, and it doesn't include a bunch of inhibitions and "no-go" zones concerning stuff I want to explore (& which she's enjoyed before & still likes conceptually), and there's no clear rationale. Others might be fine accepting that situation. I'm not.


So for ME that worked really well. DH, over a great deal of time, helped me let go of my bred inhibitions. But that was not done by comparing what I had or had not done with someone else but what we could share together.



> That sounds like whining.


Well, in truth, he was a total narcissistic jerk.



> This isn't necessarily something I'd need to articulate, merely observe. My last three sexual partners have said to me some version of "I feel like I can let you do anything you want with me." They said that spontaneously, in the heat of the moment, because they both trusted me implicitly and were greatly inspired.


Yup. Trust. There are 2 people I can do anything with. And it is all about trust. But it is much more about anything WE want than anything HE wants.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@norajane: Completely agree. In fact, that should be a very welcome answer. Finding out your partner is not hot for you is pretty much the worst answer. "No, that is not it" should be a welcome relief.

And if one is content with their sex life, no reason to belabor the point. Accept you won't be doing X and move on.


----------



## VladDracul

NobodySpecial said:


> Just Wrong. Dead Stop.


Hey, different side of the same coin.


----------



## Palodyne

With my ex fiancé I wondered about this question. She told me she wanted to wait till marriage to have sex. But she seemed much more affectionate with her AP when I caught her than she ever was with me. I didn't think about it much at the time, mostly because I was drunk 90% of the time after I caught them for a solid year. But as years went on, I wondered if she was having sex with him the entire time, while denying me.

Of course I will never know the answer. And I have come to peace with that over the decades. I would never ask of a female partner what she doesn't want to do. I feel I was honest and respectful to her request. So she may have done it for another man but not me. But after reading here and on SI, I have come to realize that cheaters will perform for their AP's in many ways they won't with their BS. That's just the way of human nature.

So, if I ever decide to marry again, less than 2% chance. I would discuss first her sexual boundaries and my sexual needs. If those don't match up, then it is better to move on. I don't care what she did when she was 20, or 30. I only care about what we can share together today. Can we make each other happy emotionally, spiritually, and physically. This is the way I feel on this subject.


----------



## samyeagar

Holdingontoit said:


> @norajane: Completely agree. In fact, that should be a very welcome answer. Finding out your partner is not hot for you is pretty much the worst answer. "No, that is not it" should be a welcome relief.
> 
> *And if one is content with their sex life, no reason to belabor the point. Accept you won't be doing X and move on*.


Not just the sex part, but any other aspect as well... in most cases, I suspect that if one is content, the "you did it for them..." thought never even enters the mind.

It is the discontent that gets the mind going...


----------



## arbitrator

*FWIW, I have no desire to do threesomes or anal!

Sorry, but those acts strongly go against my "moral barometer" and accordingly, at least for me, is just a matter of personal choice!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rileyawes

Anyone who would divorce his wife because she didn't want a threesome is sick in the head. Even if she had a threesome in a previous relationship before marriage and liked it doesn't mean it's appropriate now. People have the right to change their minds! By all means, divorce your wife, but it reflects poorly on you, not her.

These are things you need to have conversations about. Do you do things for your wife that her exes did for her?? It _is_ the other side of the same coin, but it sounds like it's fueled more by jealous than an earnest desire for what you want. If you wanted it and she said no, you would (I hope) accept that. If she tried a sex act with you and said she didn't want to do it again, you would (again, I hope) accept that. It's the fact that she did it with a different man before you that's really sticking in your craw and bothering you. I understand that, but you all have to let it go. My husband suffers from retroactive jealousy, too. I've heard it's much more common in men than women, and it's really unhealthy and toxic.


----------



## Starstarfish

Sawney Beane said:


> I can get other sources of quality time - good friends, close family, spiritual guides or whomever.
> 
> If I need more money/material things, I can address this via my boss, asking for overtime etc.
> 
> If I want sex in a defined monogamous relationship, what is the alternative source if my partner does not want to meet this need?


Okay, then people should stop recommending books wherein sex is made out to be roughly or equally equivalent to these other things. Otherwise it's advice that seems half-hearted. 

And quality time with a good friend replacing quality time with a spouse is an issue. Generally when one starts getting the best portion of their quality time elsewhere it's seen as a type of emotional affair.


----------



## VladDracul

Sawney Beane said:


> If I want sex in a defined monogamous relationship, what is the alternative source if my partner does not want to meet this need?


You can apply the same question, viz., "If I want drugs in a defined no drug environment, what is the alternative source if my partner does not want to meet this need?" or a plethora of other situations. What about this? "I want to be served three squares a day and want my spouse to serve me breakfast no later than 5:30 each and every morning. She/he doesn't want to do it now but did it a time or two for an ex." Why is demands for certain sexual acts any different?
If the sacrifice of not getting everything you want is too much for you to stand, get a divorce or take your chances and get it somewhere else.


----------



## NobodySpecial

VladDracul said:


> Hey, different side of the same coin.


At least I am consistent.


----------



## Sawney Beane

VladDracul said:


> You can apply the same question, viz., "If I want drugs in a defined no drug environment, what is the alternative source if my partner does not want to meet this need?" or a plethora of other situations. What about this? "I want to be served three squares a day and want my spouse to serve me breakfast no later than 5:30 each and every morning. She/he doesn't want to do it now but did it a time or two for an ex." Why is demands for certain sexual acts any different?
> If the sacrifice of not getting everything you want is too much for you to stand, get a divorce or take your chances and get it somewhere else.


Because if you talk to a vicar or go to a restaurant so you get your meals at a precise time, it doesn't appear to contradict an expectation of marriage, or a marriage vow. Having sex with a.n.other person does, though.


----------



## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Bottom line: the inconsistency does not have to be a barrier to emotional intimacy. It can be the doorway to emotional intimacy. It can be the spark for a conversation that could be very intimate. But that requires the "deprived" person to put down their pride and anger and frustration and approach the conversation from a place of love. Not so hard to do if you are basically happy with your relationship and your sex life. Quite difficult when you are a seething ball of resentment.


beyond requiring the deprived person to put down his pride, it would also require the LD person to actually understand the truth and admit to herself and her husband

this is not straightforward. if a woman has remained married to a man strictly for practical reasons, do you think she wants to admit this? even to herself?

doing so would be admitting that she could not land the type of man who would check all of her practical boxes and still keep getting her hot.

even if she had this self knowledge, admitting it would mean giving her husband a clear launching pad for leaving her

it's not surprising that there is NEVER this level of candor in these situations


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> And if they reply and say:
> 
> *"NO, no part of the reason I don't want to do X is about not being all that hot for you. It's all about MY development as a sexual person over time and life experience, and isn't about you at all."*
> 
> Then you have to *accept *that as true instead of continuing to believe and insist that it must be because they aren't hot for you. Otherwise, you are dismissing your partner's perspective, and essentially calling them a liar that you don't trust.


If I heard the bolded, I'd take it as a bunch of pyscho-babble that didn't mean anything other than she was just trying to avoid addressing the issue directly.


----------



## Anon1111

I'm looking through you
Where did you go?
I thought I knew you
What did I know?


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> If I heard the bolded, I'd take it as a bunch of pyscho-babble that didn't mean anything other than she was just trying to avoid addressing the issue directly.


It is direct but it's not the answer you want. 

Your position seems to be that you already know the truth and it is simply this. Women should just have sex to make men happy. What they feel or want is not for them to say. 

I've come to an understanding of what men expect when they marry from reading these post. 

When a man marries he gives up his access to multiple women in exchange for a women who will compensate him for his sacrifice. 

She has to sexually satisfy him to the degree that it makes him forget that he is stuck with just one woman. What ever it takes, regardless of what she likes, feels, or fears this is what is expected of her. 

The problem is that his wife comes to the marriage and gives up her access to a fresh man when she wants. She expects her husband to compensate her by providing her with the romance and excitement of having a verity of men. It does not matter if he is not the romantic type, that is what is expected of him. 

These expectations are impossible to meet. I think they are convert and never discussed. I had visions of a magical "and then they lived happily ever after" like the act of marriage automatically conferred bliss. 

Never happened so then I grew up. Turned out that I did get the expected magic but only when I exchanged the etherial for the real.


----------



## *Deidre*

Maybe people shouldn't share too much information with their spouses/significant others about their pasts...can't see it ever really being a helpful thing. lol One thing to discuss one's sexual past in terms of not hiding anything, but to go into details of what you did with your exes, just seems unnecessary.


----------



## norajane

Buddy400 said:


> If I heard the bolded, I'd take it as a bunch of pyscho-babble that didn't mean anything other than she was just trying to avoid addressing the issue directly.


If that's the case, then I'd hope you'd ask her what she means by that because you'd like to understand, rather than telling her that her thoughts come across to you as meaningless pyscho babble and that she's trying to avoid addressing the issue. It's the difference between opening a dialogue and shutting it down.


----------



## Starstarfish

*Deidre* said:


> Maybe people shouldn't share too much information with their spouses/significant others about their pasts...can't see it ever really being a helpful thing. lol One thing to discuss one's sexual past in terms of not hiding anything, but to go into details of what you did with your exes, just seems unnecessary.


It's a no win scenario. 

If you are open and honest then you will forever be held against that standard and be accused of "not really being hot for" your new partner unless you are willing to go above and beyond whatever you did in the past. 

If you aren't open and honest, and the truth comes out in some way later you'll be accused of hiding how you were "used goods" and "plowed ten ways til Sunday." How even if a man never specifically asks you details those details will be held against you if you didn't volunteer them. And he might suffer from "rhetroact jealous" and "mind movies" forever if he ever hears how you had sex before him. 

Men want women who are into sex, like frequent sex, and aren't "plain vanilla" but seem to often expect those same women to be virgins who never had sex before them but have been dreaming of all kinds of kink and whatever else. The 50 Shades of Grey Fantasy. That you only truly love a man if you let him "test your limits."

Of course, I rarely see men volunteering for a good pegging or a MMF threesome to test his limits as a show of sexual love.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> It is direct but it's not the answer you want.
> 
> Your position seems to be that you already know the truth and it is simply this. Women should just have sex to make men happy. What they feel or want is not for them to say.


Nope. That's nowhere close to my position.

I would hope that my wife would be interested in my happiness. But she has no obligation to do anything.


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> If that's the case, then I'd hope you'd ask her what she means by that because you'd like to understand, rather than telling her that her thoughts come across to you as meaningless pyscho babble and that she's trying to avoid addressing the issue. It's the difference between opening a dialogue and shutting it down.


Yes I would ask her what she meant because I sure wouldn't have understood what she said.


----------



## Buddy400

Starstarfish said:


> It's a no win scenario.
> 
> If you are open and honest then you will forever be held against that standard and be accused of "not really being hot for" your new partner unless you are willing to go above and beyond whatever you did in the past.


No one here has talked about going "above and beyond".

We've specifically talked about doing things that were previously done with other men. So, it's doing the SAME as whatever you did in the past. No one is expecting anyone to repeat experiences which were coerced, unpleasant or painful. We are talking only about acts to which the women was indifferent or actively enjoyed.

And, even then, we're not saying that the woman HAS to do anything.




Starstarfish said:


> If you aren't open and honest, and the truth comes out in some way later you'll be accused of hiding how you were "used goods" and "plowed ten ways til Sunday." How even if a man never specifically asks you details those details will be held against you if you didn't volunteer them. And he might suffer from "rhetroact jealous" and "mind movies" forever *if he ever hears how you had sex before him*.


No one is having a problem with a woman having sex in previous relationships except a couple of men who fully realize that this is their problem to resolve.



Starstarfish said:


> Men want women who are into sex, like frequent sex, and aren't "plain vanilla" but *seem to often expect those same women to be virgins who never had sex before them but have been dreaming of all kinds of kink and whatever else.* The 50 Shades of Grey Fantasy. That you only truly love a man if you let him "test your limits."


The bolded is also something that no one on this thread has said.



Starstarfish said:


> Of course, I rarely see men volunteering for a good pegging or a MMF threesome to test his limits as a show of sexual love.


If I used to enjoy being pegged by past girlfriends, you love pegging guys and I refuse to to it with you, that should concern you.

Why make up strawmen?


----------



## *Deidre*

Starstarfish said:


> Men want women who are into sex, like frequent sex, and aren't "plain vanilla" but seem to often expect those same women to be virgins who never had sex before them but have been dreaming of all kinds of kink and whatever else. The 50 Shades of Grey Fantasy. That you only truly love a man if you let him "test your limits."


 But it's okay if guys have many partners ...because double standards lol (But, interestingly, I've never really thought much about a guy's past who I've dated, if he's shared it with me. Maybe learning of a guy's sexual past isn't the same (or as ''bad'') for a woman as a guy learning about his woman's sexual past. Idk.)



> Of course, I rarely see men volunteering for a good pegging or a MMF threesome to test his limits as a show of sexual love.


 lol hmmm....


----------



## *Deidre*

Buddy400 said:


> If I used to enjoy being pegged by past girlfriends, you love pegging guys and I refuse to to it with you, that should concern you.
> 
> Why make up strawmen?


But why is this coming up in a new relationship? How does this even come up ''Oh my gosh, I just LOOOOVED when my exes used to bend me over and...'' That's just rude to tell someone new in your life, or a spouse such things. It's almost like such a person wants a reaction...or to make the new person jealous. I'm dating someone now and if he said...''I just loved when my ex gf's used to do...'' (fill in the blank) I'd be like...see ya. That just seems like a rude thing to ''share.''


----------



## Buddy400

Code:







*Deidre* said:


> But why is this coming up in a new relationship? How does this even come up ''Oh my gosh, I just LOOOOVED when my exes used to bend me over and...'' That's just rude to tell someone new in your life, or a spouse such things. It's almost like such a person wants a reaction...or to make the new person jealous. I'm dating someone now and if he said...''I just loved when my ex gf's used to do...'' (fill in the blank) I'd be like...see ya. That just seems like a rude thing to ''share.''


I agree that the details of past relationships should be shared sparingly.

I suppose this would be more likely to happen if it was a situation where the husband wanted the wife to do X, the wife said she hated the thought of X, says she never did X with anyone, the husband decided he could do without and, 10 years later, a drunken friend says "remember how much you enjoyed doing X with Y?"

I doubt this sort of thing happens very often IRL.

It's never been an issue for me.

But just thinking about it gives a lot of guys heart palpitations!

We could have an interesting discussion about why the genders are so far apart on this.

Or, we could just make up things people never said like @Starstarfish. But I don't see the point in that.


----------



## anonmd

Catherine602 said:


> I've come to an understanding of what men expect when they marry from reading these post.
> 
> When a man marries he gives up his access to multiple women in exchange for a women who will compensate him for his sacrifice.
> 
> She has to sexually satisfy him to the degree that it makes him forget that he is stuck with just one woman. What ever it takes, regardless of what she likes, feels, or fears this is what is expected of her.
> 
> *The problem is that his wife comes to the marriage and gives up her access to a fresh man when she wants. She expects her husband to compensate her by providing her with the romance and excitement of having a verity of men*. It does not matter if he is not the romantic type, that is what is expected of him.


Really? This is an actual thought? Fascinating, horribly illogical but fascinating.

Hindsight tells me my spouse was interested in pregnancy as soon as she could get away with it, a house etc.

I foolishly thought sex would be more available. Not as compensation for my sacrifice but because you know, it is fun and pleasurable and we wouldn't be limited to 3 or so dates a week. I know, folly


----------



## VladDracul

NobodySpecial said:


> At least I am consistent.


I thought that was the point some were making about the waning excitement in monogamous relationship.


----------



## VladDracul

Sawney Beane said:


> Because if you talk to a vicar or go to a restaurant so you get your meals at a precise time, it doesn't appear to contradict an expectation of marriage, or a marriage vow. Having sex with a.n.other person does, though.


Either case they may withhold the dessert you desperately crave. In you're expectation of marriage, you've got three choices; do without, change spouses, go to a cat house/find a GF. I can't think of a fourth except trying to talk your old lady into it. Good luck with that one.


----------



## VladDracul

*Deidre* said:


> But it's okay if guys have many partners ...because double standards lol (But, interestingly, I've never really thought much about a guy's past who I've dated, if he's shared it with me. Maybe learning of a guy's sexual past isn't the same (or as ''bad'') for a woman as a guy learning about his woman's sexual past. Idk.)
> 
> lol hmmm....


A bigger fool than a woman who shares details with a man about past sexual experiences is a man who ask about past sexual experiences. Men think they can handle it and it will help them. Most can't and it won't. Take my word for it.


----------



## samyeagar

Buddy400 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that the details of past relationships should be shared sparingly.
> 
> I suppose this would be more likely to happen if it was a situation where the husband wanted the wife to do X, the wife said she hated the thought of X, says she never did X with anyone, the husband decided he could do without and, 10 years later, *a drunken friend says "remember how much you enjoyed doing X with Y?*"
> 
> I doubt this sort of thing happens very often IRL.
> 
> It's never been an issue for me.
> 
> But just thinking about it gives a lot of guys heart palpitations!
> 
> We could have an interesting discussion about why the genders are so far apart on this.
> 
> Or, we could just make up things people never said like @Starstarfish. But I don't see the point in that.


That's happened to me pretty much like that more than once with my wife and her friends. I have learned of plenty of things my wife did and enjoyed before me, that are likely never to be done with me.

Yeah, the mind movies suck, but the thing is, with the things we do together, the way we do them, she leaves no doubt in my mind that she is totally into me sexually, the best she's ever had...and that I feel is perhaps the biggest reason I never think...but you did that for them...


----------



## Wolf1974

*Deidre* said:


> But why is this coming up in a new relationship? How does this even come up ''Oh my gosh, I just LOOOOVED when my exes used to bend me over and...'' That's just rude to tell someone new in your life, or a spouse such things. It's almost like such a person wants a reaction...or to make the new person jealous. I'm dating someone now and if he said...''I just loved when my ex gf's used to do...'' (fill in the blank) I'd be like...see ya. That just seems like a rude thing to ''share.''


This is just a natural progression of any relationship I have ever been in where the past is discussed. The longer that relationship goes the more indepth and personal the conversation goes. So on first date you're not asking "have you ever done anal and did you enjoy it"? but by 6 months that might be a perfectly legitimate conversation. 

To me the ability to have open and honest communication is the cornerstone of intimacy. If she can't take about everything we aren't a good match.

Now that said some tact is obviously at play. Saying my X gf used to give me a BJ like this is tacky of course but when I guy says hey can you try this or I like this where do you think that comes from lol. It's all in how you present it. Women do the same and the older they get the more confidence they have to tell you exactly what they have learned in life, which is sexy as hell by the way.

Someone stated earlier that a great gender divide always seems to be present with this conversation about "you did it for others but not for me". Honestly I'm always fascinated by why some women wouldn't get why that would be a problem or yes a potential deal breaker.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Or, we could just make up things people never said like @Starstarfish. But I don't see the point in that.


It was an extrapolation from more than just this thread but the wider world of thoughts expressed on TAM. I don't have the real inclination to hunt all over TAM for quotes to support it. But perhaps it was things that were said in the two years I was on here you weren't, not sure. 




> We've specifically talked about doing things that were previously done with other men. So, it's doing the SAME as whatever you did in the past. No one is expecting anyone to repeat experiences which were coerced, unpleasant or painful. We are talking only about acts to which the women was indifferent or actively enjoyed.


Okay, let's be honest here. Who wants to pursue sex with someone who is indifferent to what is going on? Please think about how that thought actually sounds. 




> I foolishly thought sex would be more available. Not as compensation for my sacrifice but because you know, it is fun and pleasurable and we wouldn't be limited to 3 or so dates a week. I know, folly


Three times a week is average or above average by anything anyone says here on TAM so how is that being limited?


----------



## I Don't Know

*Deidre* said:


> But why is this coming up in a new relationship? How does this even come up ''Oh my gosh, I just LOOOOVED when my exes used to bend me over and...'' That's just rude to tell someone new in your life, or a spouse such things. It's almost like such a person wants a reaction...or to make the new person jealous. I'm dating someone now and if he said...''I just loved when my ex gf's used to do...'' (fill in the blank) I'd be like...see ya. That just seems like a rude thing to ''share.''


Sometimes when these things are discussed the relationship is purely sexual. It can be kinda hot to know, not actual details but, the capacity or preferences your partner has. For example maybe you ask do you squirt or have you ever been pegged? At this time it's purely sexual, you don't care who did that with them, you're looking to see if it's something they might be able or willing to do with you. The problem is when this fling becomes feelings. That's when you start wondering who made them squirt, how did it happen, what were the circumstances when it happened. Especially if you haven't gotten that reaction yourself. Your mind starts filling in the gaps with images of this person you care about being so extremely turned on by someone else that they were practically exploding with passion and pleasure, but you can't make that happen. Why? What are you lacking? What are you not doing right? Do you just not excite them at the same level? That's when you start looking for details. That's when this information you thought was so hot at first starts to be a source of pain and doubt. 

That's how it went for me anyway. My wife and I talked about sex A LOT before we even met in person. One day she told me, "if you get me really hot I can get off just from you sticking it in." It's never happened for us. She's gone off in less than a minute with me. I took her from nearly zero arousal to orgasm in 3 minutes with oral before. But never upon penetration. It was probably circumstances and a fluke that it ever happened to her at all. But my mind can't help but think this other guy did this thing that I can't do. I can't get her worked up like he did. And my mind works overtime to "show" me how he did it.


----------



## samyeagar

Wolf1974 said:


> This is just a natural progression of any relationship I have ever been in where the past is discussed. The longer that relationship goes the more indepth and personal the conversation goes. So on first date you're not asking "have you ever done anal and did you enjoy it"? but by 6 months that might be a perfectly legitimate conversation.
> 
> To me the ability to have open and honest communication is the cornerstone of intimacy. If she can't take about everything we aren't a good match.
> 
> Now that said some tact is obviously at play. Saying my X gf used to give me a BJ like this is tacky of course but when I guy says hey can you try this or I like this where do you think that comes from lol. It's all in how you present it. Women do the same and the older they get the more confidence they have to tell you exactly what they have learned in life, which is sexy as hell by the way.
> 
> *Someone stated earlier that a great gender divide always seems to be present with this conversation about "you did it for others but not for me". Honestly I'm always fascinated by why some women wouldn't get why that would be a problem or yes a potential deal breaker.*


I suppose the starting questions would have to be...

How do you feel sexually desired?

How do you know your husband sexually desires you?

And I suppose the real money question is...

How important is it to you to feel as if your husband desires you more sexually than other women he has been with?

If that is not overly important, then this discussion essentially ends. However, if it is important, then the followup question is...how can he make you feel as if he sexually desires you more than the others?


----------



## anonmd

Starstarfish said:


> Quote:
> I foolishly thought sex would be more available. Not as compensation for my sacrifice but because you know, it is fun and pleasurable and we wouldn't be limited to 3 or so dates a week. I know, folly
> 
> _Three times a week is average or above average by anything anyone says here on TAM so how is that being limited?_


That was 20 years ago at the not married / married dividing line. We haven't done three times a week in oh, 19 years or so :surprise:

3 times a week today would be nirvana, it's basically never more than once a week and stringing together more than 2 consecutive weeks is a constant battle...


----------



## TX-SC

*Deidre* said:


> But why is this coming up in a new relationship? How does this even come up ''Oh my gosh, I just LOOOOVED when my exes used to bend me over and...'' That's just rude to tell someone new in your life, or a spouse such things. It's almost like such a person wants a reaction...or to make the new person jealous. I'm dating someone now and if he said...''I just loved when my ex gf's used to do...'' (fill in the blank) I'd be like...see ya. That just seems like a rude thing to ''share.''


For some guys, what they seek isn't something so very out of the ordinary. Let's just use an example... 

You start dating a guy and get to the sex part. He refuses to perform oral on you. He just says he doesn't like doing that. Okay, fine, you do other things. You fall in love and marry him. He still refuses cunnilingus. One day you ask him why he won't do it. He tells you he did it a lot for his ex gf because she really liked that and he wanted to make her happy. But, he never really enjoyed it. But, he feels differently about you and wants honesty only. No more doing things he doesn't like just to impress. Would that not bother you? 

We often aren't talking about out of the ordinary things like threesomes and strap-ons. We're talking about oral, or maybe anal for some guys.


----------



## samyeagar

TX-SC said:


> For some guys, what they seek isn't something so very out of the ordinary. Let's just use an example...
> 
> You start dating a guy and get to the sex part. He refuses to perform oral on you. He just says he doesn't like doing that. Okay, fine, you do other things. You fall in love and marry him. He still refuses cunnilingus. One day you ask him why he won't do it. *He tells you he did it a lot for his ex gf because she really liked that and he wanted to make her happy. But, he never really enjoyed it.* But, he feels differently about you and wants honesty only. No more doing things he doesn't like just to impress. Would that not bother you?
> 
> We often aren't talking about out of the ordinary things like threesomes and strap-ons. We're talking about oral, or maybe anal for some guys.


I think this sparks some very conflicting feelings in a lot of people. One the one hand, they certainly, and honestly don't want their partners doing something they don't want to do. On the other hand, they want it, and they likely do have the feelings of...but you did it for them...but because having those kinds of feelings is so looked down upon, they are denied, or suppressed. Much in the same way most people would never admit to not dating someone simply because they thought they were fat and ugly...even thought that is the sole reason they wouldn't...better to be dishonest than called shallow.

Again, I don't think this really becomes an issue if one feels satisfyingly desired enough by their partner.


----------



## uhtred

you might be surprised....:surprise:



Starstarfish said:


> snip
> Of course, I rarely see men volunteering for a good pegging or a MMF threesome to test his limits as a show of sexual love.


----------



## uhtred

A variant of this in long term relationships is when your partner stops doing things that they used to do with YOU. If you have a partner who early on used to give you oral, but decides that they don't want to anymore, if that is combined with other decreases it will feel like they are no longer as attracted to you.

It doesn't need to be sex. A woman could reasonably be unhappy because her husband never get her flowers anymore, even though he used to.


----------



## Holdingontoit

​


*Deidre* said:


> But it's okay if guys have many partners ...because double standards lol (But, interestingly, I've never really thought much about a guy's past who I've dated, if he's shared it with me. Maybe learning of a guy's sexual past isn't the same (or as ''bad'') for a woman as a guy learning about his woman's sexual past. Idk.)


Not double standards, different standards. Because the dynamics are different.

For most men, women are the gatekeepers of sex. Whether I as a man get to do x, y or z is not based on whether I wish to engage in that activity, but upon whether I can locate a woman who is willing to do that with me. For women, boundaries are more often about what they themselves wish to do, as locating a man willing to engage in that act is not so difficult.

So if a woman finds out that her man did some "out there" activity with another woman, it generally triggers 1 of 2 thoughts (i) wow, my man is a stud who got someone to do THAT, guess he is even hotter than I realized and just confirms that I chose well, or (ii) I can't believe he got a woman to do THAT, guess he is even more of a perv than I thought, and maybe I have to reassess whether I chose well. Not really about herself and how attractive she feels.

For a guy, the gatekeeper to his sexuality just told him that she previously opened the gate to some other guy for something she WON'T open the gate for her current partner. Totally different dynamic.  Totally understandable that he wants some reassurance that the difference is about something that changed within her and not about how much less hot he is than the previous guy.

Given how often we see the dynamic that a woman chooses a guy based on finances, stability, emotional support, parenting and not on hotness, and how poorly so many of those pairings turn out to be, makes eminent sense that if a guy is presented with a data point indicating he may unknowingly be caught up in that dynamic, he wants to explore further what dynamic he is facing.


----------



## Vega

TX-SC said:


> You start dating a guy and get to the sex part. He refuses to perform oral on you. He just says he doesn't like doing that. Okay, fine, you do other things. You fall in love and marry him. He still refuses cunnilingus. One day you ask him why he won't do it. He tells you he did it a lot for his ex gf because she really liked that and he wanted to make her happy. *But, he never really enjoyed it*. But, he feels differently about you and wants honesty only. No more doing things he doesn't like just to impress. Would that not bother you?
> .


First of all, I would have asked him WHY he didn't like doing it long before saying "I do", especially if it's something *I* like. 

Secondly, if he _never_ really enjoyed it, I wouldn't be pressing him. 

And I doubt I would have married him...

If he had done things "just to impress me", it would depend on what he meant, but i'll tell ya...

I'd probably tell him that "I feel the same way. Since you don't feel compelled to *impress* me, I feel the same way, which is why I'll be divorcing you. I'm not going to *impress* you by forgiving you and resuming the relationship that I never would have had in the first place, had I known the truth in the first place".


----------



## *Deidre*

TX-SC said:


> For some guys, what they seek isn't something so very out of the ordinary. Let's just use an example...
> 
> You start dating a guy and get to the sex part. He refuses to perform oral on you. He just says he doesn't like doing that. Okay, fine, you do other things. You fall in love and marry him. He still refuses cunnilingus. One day you ask him why he won't do it. He tells you he did it a lot for his ex gf because she really liked that and he wanted to make her happy. But, he never really enjoyed it. But, he feels differently about you and wants honesty only. No more doing things he doesn't like just to impress. Would that not bother you?
> 
> We often aren't talking about out of the ordinary things like threesomes and strap-ons. We're talking about oral, or maybe anal for some guys.


I understand, yes this makes sense. Personally, it's all a clean slate with me for new guys I date...I don't look to the past and expect those same things with a new person. I haven't slept around to begin with, and no one night stands, but I enjoy sex in a relationship, but to me, there's no need to repeat things I did with someone else with a new person. Just my opinion. 

If I like something, he'll know. lol  Saying to someone ''I really love ''x'' ...will you do it for me?'' Just seems weird, Idk. Thing is, no two people are going to have the same experience...so, you'll find out if someone is sexually compatible with you one way or the other.

I don't care for oral performed on me, so of course when this comes up in relationships, guys are always eager to show me that it must have been the guys I was dating, but they'll be different. lol


----------



## TX-SC

Vega said:


> First of all, I would have asked him WHY he didn't like doing it long before saying "I do", especially if it's something *I* like.
> 
> Secondly, if he _never_ really enjoyed it, I wouldn't be pressing him.
> 
> And I doubt I would have married him...
> 
> If he had done things "just to impress me", it would depend on what he meant, but i'll tell ya...
> 
> I'd probably tell him that "I feel the same way. Since you don't feel compelled to *impress* me, I feel the same way, which is why I'll be divorcing you. I'm not going to *impress* you by forgiving you and resuming the relationship that I never would have had in the first place, had I known the truth in the first place".


And that's exactly what many here are saying. Their wives have done things with other guys because they were just trying to impress them. But, they refuse with their husband. In some instances they even did these things with THEM while they were dating, then not long after marriage they break out the "I don't like doing that!" excuse.


----------



## *Deidre*

Holdingontoit said:


> ​
> Not double standards, different standards. Because the dynamics are different.
> 
> For most men, women are the gatekeepers of sex. Whether I as a man get to do x, y or z is not based on whether I wish to engage in that activity, but upon whether I can locate a woman who is willing to do that with me. For women, boundaries are more often about what they themselves wish to do, as locating a man willing to engage in that act is not so difficult.
> 
> So if a woman finds out that her man did some "out there" activity with another woman, it generally triggers 1 of 2 thoughts (i) wow, my man is a stud who got someone to do THAT, guess he is even hotter than I realized and just confirms that I chose well, or (ii) I can't believe he got a woman to do THAT, guess he is even more of a perv than I thought, and maybe I have to reassess whether I chose well. Not really about herself and how attractive she feels.
> 
> For a guy, the gatekeeper to his sexuality just told him that she previously opened the gate to some other guy for something she WON'T open the gate for her current partner. Totally different dynamic. Totally understandable that he wants some reassurance that the difference is about something that changed within her and not about how much less hot he is than the previous guy.
> 
> Given how often we see the dynamic that a woman chooses a guy based on finances, stability, emotional support, parenting and not on hotness, and how poorly so many of those pairings turn out to be, makes eminent sense that if a guy is presented with a data point indicating he may unknowingly be caught up in that dynamic, he wants to explore further what dynamic he is facing.


I don't date men based on finances, and that type of thing. I've grown up with money, so a guy's money doesn't interest me. Actually, how he looks does attract me at first, but how he is as a person is most important. 

There's a lot more that people should be talking about than their pasts. I can understand it coming up, and it's come up in conversations with guys I've dated, but think when you are compatible in many ways, and enjoy the person's company...the need to discuss the past is kind of moot. If talking about your pasts becomes the focus, you're probably dating the wrong person.


----------



## TX-SC

*Deidre* said:


> I understand, yes this makes sense. Personally, it's all a clean slate with me for new guys I date...I don't look to the past and expect those same things with a new person. I haven't slept around to begin with, and no one night stands, but I enjoy sex in a relationship, but to me, there's no need to repeat things I did with someone else with a new person. Just my opinion.
> 
> If I like something, he'll know. lol  Saying to someone ''I really love ''x'' ...will you do it for me?'' Just seems weird, Idk. Thing is, no two people are going to have the same experience...so, you'll find out if someone is sexually compatible with you one way or the other.
> 
> I don't care for oral performed on me, so of course when this comes up in relationships, guys are always eager to show me that it must have been the guys I was dating, but they'll be different. lol


Yeah, my wife doesn't like oral either. But, I knew that from the beginning.


----------



## MrsAldi

It's not just women. 
My husband did things with other women, but won't with me. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

Starstarfish said:


> Okay, let's be honest here. Who wants to pursue sex with someone who is indifferent to what is going on? Please think about how that thought actually sounds.


Indifferent here means that she receives little or no sexual satisfaction from performing the act.

I'd be happy to receive a bj from someone who received a great deal of satisfaction from giving me pleasure and wanted to do it even though she wouldn't orgasm while doing it.


----------



## Buddy400

MrsAldi said:


> It's not just women.
> My husband did things with other women, but won't with me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


How do you deal with this?


----------



## MrsAldi

Buddy400 said:


> How do you deal with this?


I've been seeing a sex therapist for a while now. 
I thought they were my issues & I've done lots of work to improve myself, I put myself out there & got rejected by him. 
He's says he'll do it to make me happy, but I wouldn't want to force him to do it, if he doesn't want to.


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Starstarfish

> Indifferent here means that she receives little or no sexual satisfaction from performing the act.
> 
> I'd be happy to receive a bj from someone who received a great deal of satisfaction from giving me pleasure and wanted to do it even though she wouldn't orgasm while doing it.


And I understand that much. As someone who has an incredibly hard time finding the Big O in general, this basically is my sex life overall. But yes I find a level of satisfaction regardless. So I get this and I won't threadjack. But I'm not sure as someone who this applies to, I'd label my feelings as "indifferent." I'm not indifferent emotionally or mentally or physically to sex regardless of the eventual outcome.

But I think the more common scenario from what often seems to be described at least on TAM is I'm not getting anything out of this sexually, and I don't really like doing this but I'm willing to do this to make you happy. Except then the effort is often labeled as "duty sex" because the enthusiasm of their performance isn't seen as being there. These (mostly women) are giving their honest best in trying to make a partner happy but the effort isn't good enough.

What do you do if you are someone in that scenario? Not everyone is a natural "performer" in the same way.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Given how often we see the dynamic that a woman chooses a guy based on finances, stability, emotional support, parenting and not on hotness, and how poorly so many of those pairings turn out to be,


How many relationships where people focus solely or mostly on people being hot works out either? Their sex life might be better, but I'd bet it doesn't guarantee that the overall quality or longevity of their relationship is better. I'd say that having similar life goals, seeing your partner as meeting your needs/desires in a partner and attraction are all pieces of one puzzle. 

And looking at only pieces rather than a collective whole is what gets you into trouble.


----------



## Buddy400

Starstarfish said:


> These (mostly women) are giving their honest best in trying to make a partner happy but the effort isn't good enough.


It would be good enough for me.

If I were in the situation where I was being told that my best wasn't good enough, I'd respond "tough".

That's really what this whole issue comes down to; 

is someone giving it their best?


----------



## Buddy400

TX-SC said:


> And that's exactly what many here are saying. Their wives have done things with other guys because they were just trying to impress them.


And we're wondering why they aren't trying to impress us.


----------



## Blondilocks

The person you meet, get to know, experience and marry is the person you choose to marry. Does anyone have the right to expect or demand that the person revert/change to another version of themselves? No. Because you chose the person they were at the time you married.


----------



## VladDracul

Starstarfish said:


> How many relationships where people focus solely or mostly on people being hot works out either? Their sex life might be better, but I'd bet it doesn't guarantee that the overall quality or longevity of their relationship is better.


Better not be if thats a major part of a marriage. Its like in blacksmithing. I can heat the metal until it starts to burn off the carbon, but after I work with it a while, the hotness cools off. But unlike metal, you can't re-heat a spouse.


----------



## *Deidre*

Using sex to ''impress'' someone is a wrong use of it, in the first place, if you ask me.  I get what you're saying...think it probably makes someone just feel 'less than' if the person they're with won't be as adventurous or whatever as they were in the past. So, it makes sense that people get hurt over it.


----------



## anonmd

Starstarfish said:


> But I think the more common scenario from what often seems to be described at least on TAM is I'm not getting anything out of this sexually, and I don't really like doing this but I'm willing to do this to make you happy. Except then the effort is often labeled as "duty sex" because the enthusiasm of their performance isn't seen as being there. These (mostly women) are giving their honest best in trying to make a partner happy but the effort isn't good enough.
> 
> What do you do if you are someone in that scenario? Not everyone is a natural "performer" in the same way.


I think there can certainly be unreasonable expectations. I also think there is a wide variation of starfish to natural performer as you say and often times just a little above starfish is perfectly fine. Some slight show of interest in being there.


----------



## Blondilocks

The term "Buyer's Remorse" comes to mind. You see a new car on the lot and fall in love with it. You're happy with everything about it. You pay for it, take it home, show all your friends and bask in the reflection of its magnificent paint job. But, wait, you learn that the dealer on the other side of town has the same car - albeit a model year older - in Candy Apple Red and suddenly your Burnt Sienna doesn't look quite so shiny. You start beating yourself up because if you had just done a little more shopping you could have had that Candy Apple Red and maybe saved a little money, too. Now, you start treating your new car with disdain and stop giving it baths.


----------



## Vega

Blondilocks said:


> The term "Buyer's Remorse" comes to mind. You see a new car on the lot and fall in love with it. You're happy with everything about it. You pay for it, take it home, show all your friends and bask in the reflection of its magnificent paint job. But, wait, you learn that the dealer on the other side of town has the same car - albeit a model year older - in Candy Apple Red and suddenly your Burnt Sienna doesn't look quite so shiny. You start beating yourself up because if you had just done a little more shopping you could have had that Candy Apple Red and maybe saved a little money, too. Now, you start treating your new car with disdain and stop giving it baths.


This sounds like someone who will never be satisfied, hence, no one else will be able to satisfy. 

What's going to happen when you see another car that's the same color, make, model and year, but with a sound system that's more awesome than yours? 

At what point are you going to be _satisfied_ with what you have?


----------



## *Deidre*

Thing is, no one owes anyone anything in a relationship. A person isn't property, that should perform a certain way. Sex should be something enjoyed, and a mutual sharing type of thing. Not, one person feeling slighted, or cheated out of something. It's in these wrong expectations of relationships and sex in the first place that I think cause a lot of unnecessary pain. If you basically look at relationships and sex as 'what's in it for me' you'll probably never be happy, and always thinking you can do better. And if your relationship comes down to the content of your sex acts, and how over the top they are, and how many orgasms you can both give each other...something more profound is missing in your life, imo. Sex is awesome with the right person, but if you misuse it or use another person as a means to 'getting what you want,' then you'll probably always come away disappointed. No pun.


----------



## Vega

Buddy400 said:


> And we're wondering why they aren't trying to impress us.


We've been giving you (plural) reasons why someone many not be interested, but you (plural) don't seem to want to listen.

People _grow_. They _mature_. What may have been o.k. 20+ years ago may not be o.k. anymore. And this applies to anything, _including_ sex. 

My brother used to eat Spaghetti-O's for dinner at least 5 times a week while in high school. He absolutely loved them. He even had a girlfriend who he'd invite over and they'd both chow down. 

But once he started college, he lost his taste for them. I mean, he got to the point where if you even mentioned that point in time to him, he'd make a face like he was about to vomit. 

If he met a woman in college who never ate Spaghetti-O's, is he supposed to eat them with her because well, he "ate them with HER."? 

The majority of things on the OP's list were things that were NOT the 'norm'. So I don't think we can compare bj's to threesomes, or bondage to cunnilingus. Besides, from what the OP said, his wife had *A* threesome. That's means ONE. We have no idea how often she engaged in anal or bondage. 

Also, we have no idea if she actually did "enjoy" these things, or if the OP's interpretation was that she enjoyed it:

OP: Did you like it?
OP's wife: Eh, it was o.k. I guess.

I'm not saying that's what happened. Obviously I don't know. But there are people out there who will misinterpret, "Eh, it was o.k." for "she REALLY enjoyed it!" only because she didn't say that she HATED it. 

The woman had one threesome with ONE of her ex's. Makes me wonder just how much she really "enjoyed" it.


----------



## TX-SC

I believe our discussion has developed far beyond the original post.


----------



## EllisRedding

TX-SC said:


> I believe our discussion has developed far beyond the original post.


Yup, it is now about Spaghetti-O's :grin2:


----------



## samyeagar

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, it is now about Spaghetti-O's :grin2:


She's like spaghetti when she O's?


----------



## Buddy400

Vega said:


> We've been giving you (plural) reasons why someone many not be interested, but you (plural) don't seem to want to listen.


There are good answers and bad answers.

Question; You did X to impress Bob but won't do it for me. Why?

Good Answer: I care a lot more about impressing you than I ever did Bob but, unfortunately, X now makes me puke.

Great Answer: I care a lot more about impressing you than I ever did Bob but, unfortunately, X now makes me puke. Would you like me to give it a try anyway?

Unsatisfactory Answer: I'm not the same person I used to be.

Bad Answer: I don't care about impressing you. 

And I don't think threesomes really qualify (despite the OP). It's entirely believable that one would be less willing to share someone they care much about.


----------



## notmyrealname4

MrsAldi said:


> It's not just women.
> My husband did things with other women, but won't with me.


Similar situation here :|

Having any kind of retroactive jealousy as a woman is seen to be really kooky or abnormal. We're just supposed to accept that, of course men find other women more exciting than their wives.

It has never been easy being the second runner up. It hurts women just as bad as it hurts men. Men aren't the only ones with sexual egos.

[Not saying YOU are the second runner up in Mr Aldi's eyes; just talking from my own perspective.]


----------



## EllisRedding

samyeagar said:


> She's like spaghetti when she O's?


----------



## EllisRedding

I will stick with the position that minimal amount of information should be shared about your sexual past (not taking into account abuse or other very negative experiences that could have an impact on the current relationship). I just don't see any benefit to sharing specifics TBH unless both people in the relationship want to. I understand the potential downside to this is finding out elsewhere, but IDK, I think the risk/reward still favors keeping things minimal.

In general, I think this topic is a tough one. I can definitely see why it would cause an issue if your SO was sexually adventurous prior to meeting you, but with you the most adventurous he/she gets is taking their socks off during sex!


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I will stick with the position that minimal amount of information should be shared about your sexual past (not taking into account abuse or other very negative experiences that could have an impact on the current relationship). I just don't see any benefit to sharing specifics TBH unless both people in the relationship want to. I understand the potential downside to this is finding out elsewhere, but IDK, I think the risk/reward still favors keeping things minimal.
> 
> In general, I think this topic is a tough one. I can definitely see why it would cause an issue if your SO was sexually adventurous prior to meeting you, but with you the most adventurous he/she gets is taking their socks off during sex!




Yes, your post is completely correct.

If the issue is never brought up; then by default, it's a non-issue and will have zero effect on a relationship. People in those types of situations will not be very interested in, or post on, a thread like this.

It is a very tough topic, I have quit fighting my own "RJ" over the halcyon excitement my H enjoyed with his past relationship. He had what he had with her, it was meteoric in some ways; and I will never quite feel like I'm all that. Because, I'm not all that. And it's better just to have that in your consciousness and accept it. Don't try to stick a smiley face on it, or pretend that this is not a reality of the marriage.

Does it make it up to me that a big part of my attractiveness to my H was that my vagina still had "new car smell", that there was little chance of him being compared to anyone "better".

No, aside from the fact that my lightly used condition did give me more value; it doesn't really help my emotional state at all.


This thread could continue ad infinitum; because there is no answer that can solve the problem. People vent and rehash, some new members with the same issue join in, and it all starts again.

But, it is a fascinating aspect of human sexuality and psychology.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> This thread could continue ad infinitum; because there is no answer that can solve the problem. People vent and rehash, some new members with the same issue join in, and it all starts again.
> 
> But, it is a fascinating aspect of human sexuality and psychology.


You are correct about this thread since it did start in 2013 I believe :grin2:

The other issue of course, is when one person discloses too much info about their past when the other did not ask or does not want to know. The question then becomes the motive for this.


----------



## Sawney Beane

*Deidre* said:


> Thing is, no one owes anyone anything in a relationship. A person isn't property, that should perform a certain way.


I read this a lot. The idea the you enter a relationship and should have no expectation that your partner meets any of your needs.

If the expectation is that you meet all own needs, why enter a relationship?


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> The other issue of course, is when one person discloses too much info about their past *when the other did not ask or does not want to know.* The question then becomes the motive for this.




Yes, that is a very specific circumstance.

What you are referring to, is when a partner reveals that, for example, "yeah I could go all night with _her_", or the trusty "I did anal with him" . . . . *.unsolicited*, apropos of nothing.

And the reason for the overshare is to, what? Let your current partner know that you were too sexy for your shirt in a past relationship-but not so much now . . . .for whatever reason. IOW, a mindf*ck.

Or, to take pleasure in denying your current partner (whom you resent for all sorts of reasons) your full sexual abilities and capacity.


Or, perhaps you sense that you are "losing it". Your sexual attractiveness is coming to the end of it's shelf life; and it's nice to remind your partner of just how sexy others have found you to be; "you're so lucky someone as desirable as me chose you"


Self-defense??? Your partner is making you feel unattractive, and therefore insecure. Why not drag up some gem from the past to hurl back at them?


Lots of reasons. None of them particularly noble.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sawney Beane said:


> I read this a lot. The idea the you enter a relationship and should have no expectation that your partner meets any of your needs.
> 
> If the expectation is that you meet all own needs, why enter a relationship?


I didn't say one should have 'no' expectations, I said...'wrong' expectations.


----------



## uhtred

This is tricky. 
My feeling is that in a relationship, each is committed to making a reasonable effort to make their partner happy. I think that in marriage, sex is a reasonable expectation, assuming no unusual conditions. Where it gets tricky is what sort of sex is a reasonable expectation - and there I think there is no general agreement.

Is oral sex "reasonable" to expect? Or on the other hand is it reasonable to only receive oral sex because that is all *you* like?

Is PIV reasonable - but what if the partner finds providing foreplay distasteful? What if the only foreplay that works to get you aroused is oral and they don't like that. No simple answers.

In a good relationship both are doing everything that they can to make their partners happy.






*Deidre* said:


> Thing is, no one owes anyone anything in a relationship. A person isn't property, that should perform a certain way. Sex should be something enjoyed, and a mutual sharing type of thing. Not, one person feeling slighted, or cheated out of something. It's in these wrong expectations of relationships and sex in the first place that I think cause a lot of unnecessary pain. If you basically look at relationships and sex as 'what's in it for me' you'll probably never be happy, and always thinking you can do better. And if your relationship comes down to the content of your sex acts, and how over the top they are, and how many orgasms you can both give each other...something more profound is missing in your life, imo. Sex is awesome with the right person, but if you misuse it or use another person as a means to 'getting what you want,' then you'll probably always come away disappointed. No pun.


----------



## Sawney Beane

*Deidre* said:


> I didn't say one should have 'no' expectations, I said...'wrong' expectations.


You said "no one owes anyone anything".That suggests you shouldn't have ANY expectations.


----------



## *Deidre*

uhtred said:


> This is tricky.
> My feeling is that in a relationship, each is committed to making a reasonable effort to make their partner happy. I think that in marriage, sex is a reasonable expectation, assuming no unusual conditions. Where it gets tricky is what sort of sex is a reasonable expectation - and there I think there is no general agreement.
> 
> Is oral sex "reasonable" to expect? Or on the other hand is it reasonable to only receive oral sex because that is all *you* like?
> 
> Is PIV reasonable - but what if the partner finds providing foreplay distasteful? What if the only foreplay that works to get you aroused is oral and they don't like that. No simple answers.
> 
> In a good relationship both are doing everything that they can to make their partners happy.


I think that what are reasonable expectations in a marriage or committed relationship are - loyalty, no cheating, don't commit crimes, don't use each other, don't abuse, don't do drugs, etc. Those are reasonable expectations. Expecting oral, anal or any other kind of sex on demand, is an unreasonable expectation. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to give our SO's pleasure, but when it becomes an EXPECTATION...that is the problem. 

I studied Buddhism like two years ago, and came away really learning a lot in terms of how we get consumed with the wrong things...we get attached to people and things and situations and that is the root of our suffering. It's hard to not get attached or to not ''expect'' things out of a relationship, but that's why many people are unhappy. They expect too much and spend a lot of their relationship only giving, to get. Buddha was a wise one. lol


----------



## VladDracul

Buddy400 said:


> There are good answers and bad answers.
> 
> Question; You did X to impress Bob but won't do it for me. Why?
> 
> Good Answer: I care a lot more about impressing you than I ever did Bob but, unfortunately, X now makes me puke.
> 
> Great Answer: I care a lot more about impressing you than I ever did Bob but, unfortunately, X now makes me puke. Would you like me to give it a try anyway?
> 
> Unsatisfactory Answer: I'm not the same person I used to be.
> 
> Bad Answer: I don't care about impressing you.


Worst possible answer: There's something about him that makes me want to do it. Thinking about doing it to you makes me want to puke.


----------



## Lila

Blondilocks said:


> The person you meet, get to know, experience and marry is the person you choose to marry. Does anyone have the right to expect or demand that the person revert/change to another version of themselves? No. Because you chose the person they were at the time you married.


:iagree:

This is a simple concept but many don't appreciate it. I guess the best one can hope for is that those who 'get it' end up with other like minded individuals....and those who don't won't let resentment eat them alive.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sawney Beane said:


> You said "no one owes anyone anything".That suggests you shouldn't have ANY expectations.


I clarified in the post above.


----------



## Sawney Beane

*Deidre* said:


> I clarified in the post above.


It didn't make it the remotest bit clearer to me.


----------



## uhtred

Not in general disagreeing, but if sexual exclusivity is expected, doesn't it make sense that sex is also expected? It seems that unreasonable for someone to find that their vow of marriage was a vow of celibacy.

It all depends. I agree that expecting sex on demand is unreasonable. But I think that expecting some sex IS reasonable. How much and what sort is not at all obvious.

This ties in a bit with past activities. If you know that your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities with other partners, or earlier with you, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue? 






*Deidre* said:


> I think that what are reasonable expectations in a marriage or committed relationship are - loyalty, no cheating, don't commit crimes, don't use each other, don't abuse, don't do drugs, etc. Those are reasonable expectations. Expecting oral, anal or any other kind of sex on demand, is an unreasonable expectation. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to give our SO's pleasure, but when it becomes an EXPECTATION...that is the problem.
> 
> I studied Buddhism like two years ago, and came away really learning a lot in terms of how we get consumed with the wrong things...we get attached to people and things and situations and that is the root of our suffering. It's hard to not get attached or to not ''expect'' things out of a relationship, but that's why many people are unhappy. They expect too much and spend a lot of their relationship only giving, to get. Buddha was a wise one. lol


----------



## I Don't Know

VladDracul said:


> Worst possible answer: There's something about him that makes me want to do it. Thinking about doing it to you makes me want to puke.


And that's the answer that is dreaded, but the only answer that will ever be believed.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sawney Beane said:


> It didn't make it the remotest bit clearer to me.


Not sure what more to say.


----------



## Sawney Beane

*Deidre* said:


> I think that what are reasonable expectations in a marriage or committed relationship are - loyalty, no cheating, don't commit crimes, don't use each other, don't abuse, don't do drugs, etc. Those are reasonable expectations.


So it's a reasonable expectation your partner does not have sex with anyone else, but they shouldn't have any expectation of having sex with you.


----------



## *Deidre*

uhtred said:


> Not in general disagreeing, but if sexual exclusivity is expected, doesn't it make sense that sex is also expected? It seems that unreasonable for someone to find that their vow of marriage was a vow of celibacy.
> 
> It all depends. I agree that expecting sex on demand is unreasonable. But I think that expecting some sex IS reasonable. How much and what sort is not at all obvious.
> 
> This ties in a bit with past activities. If you know that your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities with other partners, or earlier with you, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue?


Yea, that's reasonable.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sawney Beane said:


> So it's a reasonable expectation your partner does not have sex with anyone else, but they shouldn't have any expectation of having sex with you.


''on demand'' is unreasonable, and performing each and every act that you can dream up if that person really doesn't want to, is unreasonable. I guess I have this notion that one day when I marry, I won't have to 'expect' sex...it will be freely given mutually. Like my future husband and I will genuinely desire each other, and it won't feel like an obligation, or an expectation. That's more where I'm coming from.


----------



## Buddy400

notmyrealname4 said:


> But, it is a fascinating aspect of human sexuality and psychology.


Exactly!

The topic fascinates me and I've never even had it be a factor IRL.


----------



## Anon1111

Sawney Beane said:


> I read this a lot. The idea the you enter a relationship and should have no expectation that your partner meets any of your needs.
> 
> If the expectation is that you meet all own needs, why enter a relationship?


you're asking the right questions!


----------



## Anon1111

VladDracul said:


> Worst possible answer: There's something about him that makes me want to do it. Thinking about doing it to you makes me want to puke.


only true answer


----------



## Sawney Beane

*Deidre* said:


> ''on demand'' is unreasonable, and performing each and every act that you can dream up if that person really doesn't want to, is unreasonable. I guess I have this notion that one day when I marry, I won't have to 'expect' sex...it will be freely given mutually. Like my future husband and I will genuinely desire each other, and it won't feel like an obligation, or an expectation. That's more where I'm coming from.


That's probably what every single person who finds themselves in a sexless marriage thought was going to happen. Lots of people seem to find they forsake all others and that includes their partner...


----------



## TX-SC

It seems that the issue is being twisted. Most of the posters who are arguing this, I think, are talking about sex acts that their spouse either enjoyed doing or at least had no qualms about doing, then the spigot gets shut off with their spouse. Surely anyone here could see how that could be an issue? It really gives the impression that they "settled" for their spouse and just have no desire to engage in those activities with THEM. 

We often see posts in the CWI section where a woman has refused something to their husband for years, has an affair, then does those very things with the OM. There is NO way to view that other than to say the wife simply has no desire to please her husband in that way. Granted, this is a tangent and not immediately related to the subject at hand. 

As a man, I cannot think of a single sex act I have ever done with a woman that I am not willing to do with my wife. In fact, I would GLADLY do it!


----------



## Anon1111

*Deidre* said:


> ''on demand'' is unreasonable, and performing each and every act that you can dream up if that person really doesn't want to, is unreasonable. I guess I have this notion that one day when I marry, I won't have to 'expect' sex...it will be freely given mutually. Like my future husband and I will genuinely desire each other, and it won't feel like an obligation, or an expectation. That's more where I'm coming from.


this is the way it should be

unfortunately, circumstances tend to bind married couples to the degree that they often will remain together way past the point where this dynamic has faded

if divorce were consequence free, marriage would be exactly like dating


----------



## Lila

uhtred said:


> This ties in a bit with past activities. If you know that your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities with other partners, or earlier with you, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue?


You're combining two questions that have very different answers. 

1) If you know that your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities with other partners, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue _with you_?

This question speaks directly to the OP. IMO, the answer is NO. One should judge their partner as worthy based on the attributes they present at the point when the decision to commit is made. If you want to avoid trouble down the road, don't settle. Make sure that the person with whom you choose to commit meets the most important of your wants...which include sexual kinks and acts.

2) If your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities earlier _with you_, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue?

This is typically referred to as 'Bait and Switch' which is not the topic of the OP and I don't wish to threadjack.


----------



## uhtred

Getting and providing enthusiastic passionate sex is how I believe a marriage should be. If not "expected" it is certainly to be hoped for, and I hope that you get that in any relationships that you have. 

I think some posters here got into marriage with the (sadly incorrect) expectation that enthusiastic passionate sex was normal and the later discovered that it was not available in their relationship. 




*Deidre* said:


> ''on demand'' is unreasonable, and performing each and every act that you can dream up if that person really doesn't want to, is unreasonable. I guess I have this notion that one day when I marry, I won't have to 'expect' sex...it will be freely given mutually. Like my future husband and I will genuinely desire each other, and it won't feel like an obligation, or an expectation. That's more where I'm coming from.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sawney Beane said:


> That's probably what every single person who finds themselves in a sexless marriage thought was going to happen. Lots of people seem to find they forsake all others and that includes their partner...


But why, I wonder.  



Anon1111 said:


> this is the way it should be
> 
> unfortunately, circumstances tend to bind married couples to the degree that they often will remain together way past the point where this dynamic has faded
> 
> if divorce were consequence free, marriage would be exactly like dating


 Yes, true.



uhtred said:


> Getting and providing enthusiastic passionate sex is how I believe a marriage should be. If not "expected" it is certainly to be hoped for, and I hope that you get that in any relationships that you have.
> 
> I think some posters here got into marriage with the (sadly incorrect) expectation that enthusiastic passionate sex was normal and the later discovered that it was not available in their relationship.


 ''Hope''...a reasonable hope. I like that terminology. But, if the couple experienced that during the dating phase, it would be somewhat of a reasonable expectation to think it'd carry on in the marriage. 

Marriage sounds hard. Idk.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> You're combining two questions that have very different answers.
> 
> 1) If you know that your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities with other partners, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue _with you_?
> 
> This question speaks directly to the OP. IMO, the answer is NO. One should judge their partner as worthy based on the attributes they present at the point when the decision to commit is made. If you want to avoid trouble down the road, don't settle. Make sure that the person with whom you choose to commit meets the most important of your wants...which include sexual kinks and acts.
> 
> 2) If your partner has enthusiastically engaged in a variety of sexual activities earlier _with you_, is it a reasonable expectation for that to continue?
> 
> This is typically referred to as 'Bait and Switch' which is not the topic of the OP and I don't wish to threadjack.


As to question 1) ...............

Here's the predicament.

If my partner was not willing to do something that I desired and had *never done that with anyone in the past*, I'd likely be happy never receiving it.

It's not so much about the act itself as it is what the willingness to perform it says about her attraction to me and the importance she places on my happiness.

I have no interest in anal sex. My wife has had anal sex in the past. If she told me that she wouldn't have anal sex with me, I'd have just as big an issue with it as I would if I actually wanted it.


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> As to question 1) ...............
> 
> Here's the predicament.
> 
> If my partner was not willing to do something that I desired and had *never done that with anyone in the past*, I'd likely be happy never receiving it.
> 
> It's not so much about the act itself as it is what the willingness to perform it says about her attraction to me and the importance she places on my happiness.
> 
> I have no interest in anal sex. My wife has had anal sex in the past. *If she told me that she wouldn't have anal sex with me, I'd have just as big an issue with it as I would if I actually wanted it*.


I don't understand this type of thinking but then again I think anyone willing to discuss or compare past sexual experiences with a new partner has to be willing to deal with the possible negative repercussions.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Buddy400 said:


> The topic fascinates me and I've never even had it be a factor IRL.


So you are just arguing this all theoretically; you haven't actually experienced being the sexual consolation prize irl?


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> I don't understand this type of thinking but then again I think anyone willing to discuss or compare past sexual experiences with a new partner has to be willing to deal with the possible negative repercussions.


That's the thing, my wife and I have a deal to never discuss intimate details of our lives before we met.

Even so, somehow, it came up.

I certainly didn't want to know!


----------



## Buddy400

notmyrealname4 said:


> So you are just arguing this all theoretically; you haven't actually experienced being the sexual consolation prize irl?


Correct.


----------



## Buddy400

*Deidre* said:


> Marriage sounds hard. Idk.


Rather than just hoping that you and your partners sexual desires happen to line up at the same time, I'd recommend proactively making sure that your partner's desires are met.


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> That's the thing, my wife and I have a deal to never discuss intimate details of our lives before we met.
> 
> Even so, somehow, it came up.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to know!


Did your wife bring up the topic? If so, she's probably open to that type of sexual activity with you. I'm not so sure she would not have kept it to herself if she was opposed to doing it with you.


----------



## *Deidre*

Buddy400 said:


> Rather than just hoping that you and your partners sexual desires happen to line up at the same time, I'd recommend proactively making sure that your partner's desires are met.


I'm in a relationship now, and having sex with him. But, it seems very...for lack of a better word, natural. Like...effortless, again for lack of a better word. lol So when I read these stories on here, I wonder how it went for some of these couples ...from effortless to an obligation, you know?


----------



## notmyrealname4

Buddy400 said:


> *I have no interest in anal sex*. My wife has had anal sex in the past. If she told me that she wouldn't have anal sex with me, I'd have just as big an issue with it as I would if I actually wanted it.


I have read and re-read this comment 3 times now.

I CAN understand a guy feeling this way *if* he has always wanted anal sex.

Since you have no interest in it at all;why would it bother you if your wife said " I don't ever want to have anal sex"? Or is it if she said "I don't ever want to have anal sex,* with you*"?

If she loves anal sex, is one of the Lord God Bird women who orgasms from it . . . .then the only reason she doesn't want it now is because, 1.) She feels ashamed that she likes it, since it is still considered kinda raw and nasty---the shame is part of the excitement 2.) She suffered injury from it and it would be downright painful 3.) That level of exposure and potential embarrassment isn't acceptable with her husband.

Maybe with some guy in a shorter term relationship; she didn't care what he thought of her as a person. The transitory nature of him and the sex added to the thrill.<<<<that has NOTHING to do with you of course.

Having your respect is important to her. Holding you back and not having full intimacy with you is important to her.


The only one that must be unconditionally accepted and respected is the one that involves her health and not inflicting pain on her, in any way shape or form.


The rest is all in the realm of emotion, fear of intimacy, the comfort of having control.


BUT, you aren't interested in anal sex. So WHY do you care?


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> If she loves anal sex, is one of the Lord God Bird women who orgasms from it . . . .then the only reason she doesn't want it now is because, 1.) She feels ashamed that she likes it, since it is still considered kinda raw and nasty---the shame is part of the excitement 2.) She suffered injury from it and it would be downright painful 3.) That level of exposure and potential embarrassment isn't acceptable with her husband.
> 
> Maybe with some guy in a shorter term relationship; she didn't care what he thought of her as a person. The transitory nature of him and the sex added to the thrill.<<<<that has NOTHING to do with you of course.
> 
> Having your respect is important to her. Holding you back and not having full intimacy with you is important to her.


For all this here, this is where the importance of communication comes into play. Let's take option #2, if he wants anal, she doesn't (although she has done it in the past) she should be able to explain that it was a painful experience of which she doesn't care to relive. He should be able to understand/accept that.

As far as #1 and #3, it would appear that this couple still isn't completely comfortable or opened up to each other, so that could be something to work on (not with the end result (no pun intended) being anal sex, but moreso an understanding about why there are certain aspects within the relationship that one feels uncomfortable discussing with the other).


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> I'm in a relationship now, and having sex with him. But, it seems very...for lack of a better word, natural. Like...effortless, again for lack of a better word. lol So when I read these stories on here, I wonder how it went for some of these couples ...from effortless to an obligation, you know?


Keep in mind, you are in a new relationship, correct? The good ole hormones at the early stages can make up for a lot. When those are gone, you have been around that same person for years, possibly have added stresses such as work and family life which can make your relationship less of a priority, the "natural" you may be experiencing now may not be so "natural". Not trying to paint a grim picture here, but this is the reality for many. Those who won't accept this will fight together with their spouse to make things work. Those who won't, who don't want to put in the extra work/effort, well, those are the ones who probably end up in an unhappy relationship.


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> Nope. That's nowhere close to my position.
> 
> I would hope that my wife would be interested in my happiness. But she has no obligation to do anything.


The problem is often that a wife may thinks the is showing that she cares about her husbands happiness but that does not make him happy. 

Her husband may not place as high a value on the ways she shows she cares if is not sexual. She does not place as high a value on how happy and cared for sex with her makes him feel. 

She may express her difficulty in understanding why sex matters so much when there is so much more in the relationship. Why all the ways that she thinks shows she loves him and cares does not make a impression on him.

Can you explain why all the things your wife does for you does not show that she is interested in your happiness? Are there some things that she does that show she is interested in your happiness?


----------



## Catherine602

EllisRedding said:


> Keep in mind, you are in a new relationship, correct? The good ole hormones at the early stages can make up for a lot. When those are gone, you have been around that same person for years, possibly have added stresses such as work and family life which can make your relationship less of a priority, the "natural" you may be experiencing now may not be so "natural". Not trying to paint a grim picture here, but this is the reality for many. Those who won't accept this will fight together with their spouse to make things work. Those who won't, who don't want to put in the extra work/effort, well, those are the ones who probably end up in an unhappy relationship.


I didn't know that there were stages in a LTR and the story-eyed period would not last forever. It's hard to imagine that such intense feelings would decrease with time. 

It never went away totally for me and the intensity comes back frequently. The contrast makes it easier to weather the difficult times.

I didn't know that what we did in the early stages of our relationship would have such an impact on the next stage. Maybe if people knew about the way LTR work, they would be happier.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> Did your wife bring up the topic? If so, she's probably open to that type of sexual activity with you. I'm not so sure she would not have kept it to herself if she was opposed to doing it with you.


Early in the relationship, she offered. 

I declined. 

Then she said "It hurts". 

I figured that meant that she could live without it.

Having said "It hurts" made it kind of obvious that she'd done it before.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Keep in mind, you are in a new relationship, correct? The good ole hormones at the early stages can make up for a lot. When those are gone, you have been around that same person for years, possibly have added stresses such as work and family life which can make your relationship less of a priority, the "natural" you may be experiencing now may not be so "natural". Not trying to paint a grim picture here, but this is the reality for many. Those who won't accept this will fight together with their spouse to make things work. Those who won't, who don't want to put in the extra work/effort, well, those are the ones who probably end up in an unhappy relationship.


This is a helpful post, thank you! I guess things change after people get married, maybe not intentionally, but stresses and raising kids, etc...it all might take a priority over the relationship at times.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> The problem is often that a wife may thinks the is showing that she cares about her husbands happiness but that does not make him happy.
> 
> Her husband may not place as high a value on the ways she shows she cares if is not sexual. She does not place as high a value on how happy and cared for sex with her makes him feel.
> 
> She may express her difficulty in understanding why sex matters so much when there is so much more in the relationship. Why all the ways that she thinks shows she loves him and cares does not make a impression on him.
> 
> Can you explain why all the things your wife does for you does not show that she is interested in your happiness? Are there some things that she does that show she is interested in your happiness?


That's why understanding your partner's love languages is so important. She might be showing her desire to make him happy by keeping a clean house and cooking great dinners (neither of which he cares about) and and he could be showing his desire to make her happy by buying her gifts (which she doesn't care about). It's got to be something the other person actually cares about to count.

This is all hypothetical to me. My wife is absolutely dedicated to my happiness and I hers. To the degree that we ever had problems, it was because I failed to make clear to her my desires and expected her to read my mind.


----------



## Buddy400

notmyrealname4 said:


> BUT, you aren't interested in anal sex. So WHY do you care?


If she had made it off limits before knowing that I wasn't interested and I then discovered that she'd done it with another (and not minded it) then I would have taken that to mean that she was more interested in making someone else happy than she was me.

Recently, the subject of "things you wouldn't do" came up (probably because of this thread). She mentioned anal sex and I had an obvious adverse reaction. She knew something was up and asked what. I said "why would that be off the table for me". She said "but you don't want it". I said "but what if I did?". She saw the point and explained that if I really did want it, she'd give it a go. I assured her that I still wasn't interested.


----------



## Vega

I'm going to throw something out that probably won't be well received, but I want to make a point.

Couldn't ALL of this jealousy, mind-movies, lying and insecurity be avoided by _*not*_ having sex _before_ marriage...?

I understand that what I'm asking will be met with laughter and even anger but...

Think about it.

If the ONLY partner we ever had was our spouse, there would be no jealousy of others before us.

There would be no mind-movies of our spouse enjoying themselves with someone else

We wouldn't have to worry about being "found out" 2 decades later and we wouldn't have to deal with, "Were 'they' better than me?" 

It seems like the majority of us want it ALL, but when we try to have it all, we wonder why we end up ultimately unhappy. 

Are we being too unrealistic?


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> If she had made it off limits before knowing that I wasn't interested and I then discovered that she'd done it with another (and not minded it) then I would have taken that to mean that she was more interested in making someone else happy than she was me.
> 
> Recently, the subject of "things you wouldn't do" came up (probably because of this thread). She mentioned anal sex and I had an obvious adverse reaction. She knew something was up and asked what. I said "why would that be off the table for me". She said "but you don't want it". I said "but what if I did?". She saw the point and explained that if I really did want it, she'd give it a go. I assured her that I still wasn't interested.


What if she said she wanted to do anal sex on you. Would you be game? suppose she developed a taste for restraints and whips, still game. 

I have a feeling that men would be far less keen to want their wives to bend to their desires if women expressed a need for sex act that would require equal bending. 

A friend shared TMI with me once, she said her husband kept after her for anal sex and would not take no for an answer. She browsed for the implements for the act. 

When he asked about it she said that anal sex sounded like a good idea but she wanted to do him first. He has not mentioned it since.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Vega said:


> I'm going to throw something out that probably won't be well received, but I want to make a point.
> 
> Couldn't ALL of this jealousy, mind-movies, lying and insecurity be avoided by _*not*_ having sex _before_ marriage...?
> 
> I understand that what I'm asking will be met with laughter and even anger but...
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> If the ONLY partner we ever had was our spouse, there would be no jealousy of others before us.
> 
> There would be no mind-movies of our spouse enjoying themselves with someone else
> 
> We wouldn't have to worry about being "found out" 2 decades later and we wouldn't have to deal with, "Were 'they' better than me?"
> 
> It seems like the majority of us want it ALL, but when we try to have it all, we wonder why we end up ultimately unhappy.
> 
> Are we being too unrealistic?



I do think that would be an answer.

A lot of people would say that it's too risky to marry someone that you haven't had sex with yet; so you don't know what you're getting.

But one thing I've certainly learned at TAM is that having great sex prior to marriage is absolutely no guarantee that sex will continue to be great afterwards.

And, yes, to even suggest waiting until marriage as a sexual norm, would pretty much get you laughed out of existence.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> I have a feeling that men would be far less keen to want their wives to bend to their desires if women expressed a need for sex act that would require equal bending.


Yes. 

I have wondered how willing a man would be to have an implement the width and length of banana shoved in their mouth that causes their jaw to lock up for sometimes 10 minutes, while the implement was causing them to gag...

We won't even get into cumming in his mouth.



> A friend shared TMI with me once, she said her husband kept after her for anal sex and would not take no for an answer. She browsed for the implements for the act.
> 
> When he asked about it she said that anal sex sounded like a good idea but she wanted to do him first. He has not mentioned it since


Priceless.


----------



## Vega

notmyrealname4 said:


> A lot of people would say that it's too risky to marry someone that you haven't had sex with yet; so you don't know what you're getting.
> 
> But one thing I've certainly learned at TAM is that *having great sex prior to marriage is absolutely no guarantee that sex will continue to be great afterwards.
> *


So, you're taking a risk either way. But given all the problems that seem to occur while having sex _before_ marriage, wouldn't it make more sense to wait in order to avoid the other issues?


----------



## Vega

Buddy400 said:


> Great Answer: I care a lot more about impressing you than I ever did Bob but, unfortunately, X now makes me puke. Would you like me to give it a try anyway?
> .


If my husband knew I had a strong dislike of something, but wanted me to do it anyway, he'd be my EX-husband. He would have demonstrated his own selfishness and that he did not love me. 



> Unsatisfactory Answer: I'm not the same person I used to be.


What is this unsatisfactory? I've done things in my life that I no longer do because I grew up. We used to lay down in the middle of the road while a car was coming. At the time, we had fun. But would I do that as an adult? No. Friggin'. Way. 

Why can't the same thinking be applied to sex?


----------



## VladDracul

*Deidre* said:


> ''on demand'' is unreasonable, and performing each and every act that you can dream up if that person really doesn't want to, is unreasonable. I guess I have this notion that one day when I marry, I won't have to 'expect' sex...it will be freely given mutually. Like my future husband and I will genuinely desire each other, and it won't feel like an obligation, or an expectation. That's more where I'm coming from.


Here's the thing Deid. If you don't want to sex that is, "freely given mutually", you just damn sure married the wrong person and one or both of you will live a miserable married life. Like the song sez, "if it don't come easy, you better let it go.

Oh ya, a good bench mark for a reasonably happy relationship, a couple or three years beyond the honeymoon, is minimum of twice a week. Anything more is great. Anything less will start to cause a lot of hurt feelings and increased complaining.


----------



## Vega

VladDracul said:


> Oh ya, a good bench mark for a reasonably happy relationship, a couple or three years beyond the honeymoon, is *minimum of twice a week*. Anything more is great. Anything less will start to cause a lot of hurt feelings and increased complaining.


That turns sex into a routine, and routines are _boring_. 

I wonder how many people realize that a lot of LD's are LD because they're just bored with sex in general?


----------



## Personal

TX-SC said:


> As a man, I cannot think of a single sex act I have ever done with a woman that I am not willing to do with my wife. In fact, I would GLADLY do it!


I can think of a couple of things that I wouldn't do with my wife.

Like having sex while inebriated in a nightclub. Although I had fun doing it, I only did it once and certainly don't want to do it again. To the point that I would most certainly refuse to do that with my wife if she asked me to.

Likewise my wife had sex with someone else in a pub once and she said she had fun doing it (I can't recall if she was inebriated at the time but she may have been). Anyway there is no way she would do that with me today even if I asked her to.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter to me, what my wife did before me and with whom (or even after if we end our sexual relationship). All that matters to me is what we do together with each other from the point we started having sex together while ever we remain together.


----------



## Personal

notmyrealname4 said:


> But one thing I've certainly learned at TAM is that having great sex prior to marriage is absolutely no guarantee that sex will continue to be great afterwards.


I expect for a lot of people who find themselves in such situations they probably often have little idea what great sex really is.

To the point that on here at least for many it seems that a lot of "great" premarital-sex, turns out to be doing it 2-3x a week at best, with a woman faking her orgasms for a few months to a year, with oral sex being a special treat rather than standard fair.

When I read about sexless marriages here, I am seldom ever surprised that the poster finds themselves in a sexless marriage. Since invariably there is a banner parade of red flags that they ignore.


----------



## Personal

Vega said:


> I have wondered how willing a man would be to have an implement the width and length of banana shoved in their mouth that causes their jaw to lock up for sometimes 10 minutes, while the implement was causing them to gag...
> 
> We won't even get into cumming in his mouth.


There are lots of men who have plenty of experience of that as well.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> This is a helpful post, thank you! I guess things change after people get married, maybe not intentionally, but stresses and raising kids, etc...it all might take a priority over the relationship at times.


It is not marriage per se. In general, when you are in a LTR you will become comfortable with that person, and complacency will set in (to varying degrees of course depending on each person). What follows is that maybe you start taking that person for granted, try a little less since you don't feel like you need to impress/catch them, etc... We have all done it. At the beginning of the relationship, thanks in part to the excitement of getting to know a new person and the hormones, it is easy to overcome this. As the relationship matures, the hormones wear off, and the "newness" is gone, it takes a lot more work. I believe that is why you always here the saying that you should always date your SO, regardless of whether you have been together 6 months or 6 years.

IMO, the biggest challenge to a relationship is kids. Once you have kids, the priority level of your relationship drops. I don't know the exact number, but I have seen posted here on TAM that you should be spending X minutes/hours a day with your SO. Well, sounds great on paper, but that is just in no way realistic in my case (and I am sure many others) with 3 young kids at home. What that means for us, we need to try and make the most of the time when we do get it. At times I have to be willing to sacrifice some sleep. There may be times where we need to schedule sex (i.e. so not really the "natural" act that you accustomed to). How often here do you here when someone posts here with relationship issues the recommendation is to NOT HAVE KIDS until things are sorted out. Kids in a strong relationship, you will manage. Kids in a struggling relationship, there is a good chance you are doomed ...

Marriage/relationships is hard freakin work lol.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Buddy400 said:


> That's why understanding your partner's love languages is so important.
> .


And you would still get people who even if they understood it would still not make any attempt to "speak" it. In the same way you get people who clearly understand that they speak French in France, but can't get their heads around why the French don't just give that up and speak English like "sensible people" do.


----------



## uhtred

You might be surprised how many men enjoy those sorts of things. Strapons to allow women to penetrate men are pretty popular sex toys. 

Its not the majority by any means, but its not really unusual either.






Vega said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have wondered how willing a man would be to have an implement the width and length of banana shoved in their mouth that causes their jaw to lock up for sometimes 10 minutes, while the implement was causing them to gag...
> 
> We won't even get into cumming in his mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Priceless.


----------



## uhtred

I think part of the issues is why someone did things before and won't now. If a woman says that her previous boyfriend forced her to have anal sex and she hated it, no one who loves her would ever ask her to do it. OTOH, if he finds out that she used to enjoy it but is unwilling to do it now, it can raise questions of what is different. (hint - the answer to this one is "he was much smaller so it didn't hurt....").

I knew a girl in college who let everyone know about her oral skills. If I'd married her and she decided never to do oral again, I might reasonably wonder why.


----------



## *Deidre*

VladDracul said:


> Here's the thing Deid. If you don't want to sex that is, "freely given mutually", you just damn sure married the wrong person and one or both of you will live a miserable married life. Like the song sez, "if it don't come easy, you better let it go.
> 
> Oh ya, a good bench mark for a reasonably happy relationship, a couple or three years beyond the honeymoon, is minimum of twice a week. Anything more is great. Anything less will start to cause a lot of hurt feelings and increased complaining.


I understand, good points.

I mentioned earlier in this thread about Buddhism, and how it teaches that much suffering comes from attachment. This doesn't mean we shouldn't care about people or fall in love, or even desire things and people, but when we become attached to people and situations, it can create suffering. We shouldn't be so attached to sex or even another person, that we lose our sense of peace in ourselves. Being in love and expressing that love, are beautiful things, but to become obsessed with one's sex life, so much so, that you're comparing yourself to ghosts of your current partner's past, is where the problem is. Not that your partner had a past that you dislike, but rather that you equate the value of your relationship to it. 

That is the problem for everyone, really...we're all human. It's wrong to think that if your spouse does exactly what he/she liked with an ex, but now with you, that everything will be just fine. There's something else going on inside of a person that needs fixing, if he/she is too fixated on what their significant other did with others in bed, from a long time ago. Our lives aren't the sum total of what our significant others think of us, and do with us in bed. Your self worth shouldn't rest on that, anyway. Just my thoughts to it, anyways.


----------



## *Deidre*

uhtred said:


> I think part of the issues is why someone did things before and won't now. If a woman says that her previous boyfriend forced her to have anal sex and she hated it, no one who loves her would ever ask her to do it. OTOH, if he finds out that she used to enjoy it but is unwilling to do it now, it can raise questions of what is different. (hint - the answer to this one is "he was much smaller so it didn't hurt....").
> 
> I knew a girl in college who let everyone know about her oral skills. If I'd married her and she decided never to do oral again, I might reasonably wonder why.


Think it boils down to communication...if she were to say, 'you know, this makes me feel bad because I remember how I was back in college...' then, at least you'll know why. And can work on repairing her self image. But, to not say anything, and leave the other person guessing, guess that's where some of the issues come up.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> It is not marriage per se. In general, when you are in a LTR you will become comfortable with that person, and complacency will set in (to varying degrees of course depending on each person). What follows is that maybe you start taking that person for granted, try a little less since you don't feel like you need to impress/catch them, etc... We have all done it. At the beginning of the relationship, thanks in part to the excitement of getting to know a new person and the hormones, it is easy to overcome this. As the relationship matures, the hormones wear off, and the "newness" is gone, it takes a lot more work. I believe that is why you always here the saying that you should always date your SO, regardless of whether you have been together 6 months or 6 years.
> 
> IMO, the biggest challenge to a relationship is kids. Once you have kids, the priority level of your relationship drops. I don't know the exact number, but I have seen posted here on TAM that you should be spending X minutes/hours a day with your SO. Well, sounds great on paper, but that is just in no way realistic in my case (and I am sure many others) with 3 young kids at home. What that means for us, we need to try and make the most of the time when we do get it. At times I have to be willing to sacrifice some sleep. There may be times where we need to schedule sex (i.e. so not really the "natural" act that you accustomed to). How often here do you here when someone posts here with relationship issues the recommendation is to NOT HAVE KIDS until things are sorted out. Kids in a strong relationship, you will manage. Kids in a struggling relationship, there is a good chance you are doomed ...
> 
> Marriage/relationships is hard freakin work lol.


Yes, it sounds like a lot of work, but probaly it is worth it in the end.


----------



## anonmd

*Deidre* said:


> Yes, it sounds like a lot of work, but probaly it is worth it in the end.


50/50

At a minimum somewhere between 70/30 and 30/70, not sure that ='s probably...


----------



## Catherine602

This would not be a problem if people kept details about what they did with past partners private. It's important to discuss current likes and dislikes as part of getting to know a potential partner. 

I can't see the benefit of sharing details of past sexual acts. It's especially perilous for women because revelations take away their freedom to explore new and different things with their current love interest. 

Most men who get details, can't handle it. They are jealous if they know or suspicious if they don't. The problem is the men who want to know. It may indicate control issues or sexual insecurities. I don't think the desire to know is benign no matter how casual the questions seem. 

Men have a right to ask if its important to them and the right to leave a relationship if they don't get info. Women have a right to keep details private and leave a relationship with a man who is too curious.


----------



## MAJDEATH

While not sexual in nature, it still unnerves me to remember the time my fWW showed great interest in 2 very different activities: basic car repair and weight lifting. In the 25+ years I have known her, she has never had the slightest interest in either of these 2 activities, until the OM needed some help with fixing his car and wanted to go lift weights regularly as his form of exercise. 

I remember her coming home one Saturday afternoon to get my tool box because "someone at work" needed help changing their car headlight. When she got home later I asked if my tools were helpful to the guy changing the bulb (because I assumed a guy was doing the repair work on his car but left his tools at home and we lived very close to her work). Her answer surprised me "No, I changed his bulb because he doesn't know how and I am good with tools". Really, since when? I was surprised. 

And when her mother called the house phone late one night because her aunt had died, after calling her cellphone and getting voicemail, the OM's roommate had give me the number to the facility's weight room, and that's where I reached them to give her the bad news. 

Who knows about the sex stuff. I imagine it was the same or similar as it was with me when this went down 12-15 yrs ago, at least 1 OM confirmed that. But I will never know for sure. That was then, this is now.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> This would not be a problem if people kept details about what they did with past partners private. It's important to discuss current likes and dislikes as part of getting to know a potential partner.
> 
> I can't see the benefit of sharing details of past sexual acts.* It's especially perilous for women because revelations take away their freedom to explore new and different things with their current love interest. *
> 
> Most men who get details, can't handle it. They are jealous if they know or suspicious if they don't. The problem is the men who want to know. It may indicate control issues or sexual insecurities. I don't think the desire to know is benign no matter how casual the questions seem.
> 
> Men have a right to ask if its important to them and the right to leave a relationship if they don't get info. Women have a right to keep details private and leave a relationship with a man who is too curious.



I agree that it wouldn't be a problem if people kept the details to themselves; but the second sentence, about sharing likes and dislikes, is oftentimes going to result in conversations where past sexual experiences are discussed.



> It's especially perilous for women because revelations *take away their freedom to explore new and different things with their current love interest*.



^^^I'm curious, what do you mean by this?

My husband spilled his guts about almost everything in his past, very quickly; looking back, I wonder why??? There was a very choice, omitted detail, that he provided, out-of-the-blue, 20+ years later.

I remember once trying to talk to him about a sexual experience before him, and he said "okay, that's enough, I don't need to know anymore". So, I haven't ever brought anything like that up again.

Your last paragraph, although I think it is an accurate assessment, would probably not work IRL; I mean, can you imagine how many relationships would break up, lol? Or, would that be a good thing????


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

notmyrealname4 said:


> ^^^I'm curious, what do you mean by this?


It means you are an object for her use and satisfaction, and shouldn't expect respect, honesty, or communication from the princess/goddess (depending which she feels she is). Who or what she is, or has done is none of your business because you are not an equal in a partnership or joint life, but merely a hotel to stay at in her journey of self-identify and discovery (read: "crazy").

Which is why "the good ones" communicate and don't hold out.


----------



## notmyrealname4

spotthedeaddog said:


> It means you are an object for her use and satisfaction, and shouldn't expect respect, honesty, or communication from the princess/goddess (depending which she feels she is). Who or what she is, or has done is none of your business because you are not an equal in a partnership or joint life, but merely a hotel to stay at in her journey of self-identify and discovery (read: "crazy").
> 
> Which is why "the good ones" communicate and don't hold out.




Okay, that's one interpretation. A very sad one. 

Hopefully, Catherine will chime in and share what she meant; maybe it's not as sinister as what you are describing.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

notmyrealname4 said:


> Okay, that's one interpretation. A very sad one.
> 
> Hopefully, Catherine will chime in and share what she meant; maybe it's not as sinister as what you are describing.


I'm not PC and don't dress things up for social consumption (I regard such things as dishonest to others and self, and thus misleading for psychological examination). What she "meant" is probably far more PC, far more social acceptable, and about that much more dishonest.

It is very hard for many people to realize that the majority of people are completely self-interested (and the rest dependent/co-dependent in an unhealthy way). But just because it's hard doesn't make it untrue...just socially unpronounceable.

What becomes more healthy is to recognise the truthful facts, that many people _are_ self-orientated, and then adjust your self-orientation to accept that. that way you can become interdependent, accept that the other persons goals are their's and not up to you to chase, and a huge amount of pain and financial loss avoided when they finally follow their own expression in life - because no longer are we binding women to men financially as a method of control, so men and women have to adjust for that in their life path planning. so ,upside, more options all around; downside, more options as around. The healthy plant adapts to its environment.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> This would not be a problem if people kept details about what they did with past partners private. It's important to discuss current likes and dislikes as part of getting to know a potential partner.
> 
> I can't see the benefit of sharing details of past sexual acts. It's especially perilous for women because revelations take away their freedom to explore new and different things with their current love interest.
> 
> Most men who get details, can't handle it. They are jealous if they know or suspicious if they don't. The problem is the men who want to know. It may indicate control issues or sexual insecurities. I don't think the desire to know is benign no matter how casual the questions seem.
> 
> Men have a right to ask if its important to them and the right to leave a relationship if they don't get info. Women have a right to keep details private and leave a relationship with a man who is too curious.


How does this square with the idea that if you get into a relationship (especially one that appears serious/long term) you owe your partner complete, utter and total transparency, about everything? If you make sex acts an exception, what else would be considered acceptable to not reveal because "it takes away their freedom to explore new and different things"? Previous drug abuse? STIs? Criminal involvement? Mental health issues? Where does the line get drawn, unless you go down the road of "sex is special, sex is different" In which case why isn't (say) mental health special and different too?


----------



## alexm

Catherine602 said:


> This would not be a problem if people kept details about what they did with past partners private. It's important to discuss current likes and dislikes as part of getting to know a potential partner.


Definitely agree, but that's not always the case, especially once you get into likes and dislikes. You're essentially asking what one has done prior to you when you ask what they like and don't like. There's really no escaping it, in the end.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I agree that it wouldn't be a problem if people kept the details to themselves; but the second sentence, about sharing likes and dislikes, is oftentimes going to result in conversations where past sexual experiences are discussed.


Exactly. I've used this example before in a similar thread.

My wife and her friend were talking about something, and the conversation veered off into a weird territory (in which I was only half paying attention, and my wife turns and looks at me and says "So yeah Mike, don't EVER spank me!" I asked her to repeat what she said. "Don't spank me, ever!" "Why would I spank you???" and the conversation trailed off into something else.

I later asked her WTF she had been talking about, and I got the basic story about how some guy had a thing for spanking her and she hated it.

Now obviously this isn't something I judged her by, but the mental picture sucked, and I told her so. There have been things I've not been a fan of with past partners, but I've never felt I had to state those to my wife pre-emptively.

Basically, there's no way around it a lot of the time. Once you get to know somebody intimately, it's not difficult to figure out how they've arrived at their likes and dislikes in the bedroom, and some people are just less tactful at how they dispense that information.

For most of us, myself included, it's not a jealousy thing. My wife has more experience than I do. She and I dated as teenagers, and reconnected as adults. She learned a LOT during our time apart - that was very apparent the first time we had sex the second time around. TBH, it was a little disconcerting at first, as we had previous experience with each other, and she had obviously learned a lot, but hey, it benefited me! The same was true in reverse, as I had evolved, too.

Anyway, we all want partners who know what they're doing in the bedroom - both men and women - but most of us don't want to know where they learned it...


----------



## alexm

Sawney Beane said:


> How does this square with the idea that if you get into a relationship (especially one that appears serious/long term) you owe your partner complete, utter and total transparency, about everything? If you make sex acts an exception, what else would be considered acceptable to not reveal because "it takes away their freedom to explore new and different things"? Previous drug abuse? STIs? Criminal involvement? Mental health issues? Where does the line get drawn, unless you go down the road of "sex is special, sex is different" In which case why isn't (say) mental health special and different too?


I think some people tend to look at things differently, and justify asking questions like that. I get what you're saying, totally, but it's not always the mindset of the asker.

People generally have an opinion about what's acceptable, sexually, and they would prefer (or sometimes require) that their partner share the same views on the subject. This is legitimate, IMO. Sharing the same views on sexuality often indicates a much better compatibility rate, logically.

If a man or woman does not like giving or receiving oral sex, then they would MUCH prefer their partner agrees with them, for obvious reasons.

Some people, whether you like it or not, can go beyond "basic" sexuality, and prefer a partner hold the same views in other areas, as well. Every bit of information, no matter how small, can give an indication of how that person could be as a long term partner, as well, or at least give one an expectation of things to come. Not fool-proof, of course, but an indication.

People change, grow and learn, but one's prior experience/behaviour can certainly be indicative of things to come in one way or another.


----------



## samyeagar

alexm said:


> Definitely agree, but that's not always the case, especially once you get into likes and dislikes. You're essentially asking what one has done prior to you when you ask what they like and don't like. There's really no escaping it, in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I've used this example before in a similar thread.
> 
> My wife and her friend were talking about something, and the conversation veered off into a weird territory (in which I was only half paying attention, and my wife turns and looks at me and says "So yeah Mike, don't EVER spank me!" I asked her to repeat what she said. "Don't spank me, ever!" "Why would I spank you???" and the conversation trailed off into something else.
> 
> I later asked her WTF she had been talking about, and I got the basic story about how some guy had a thing for spanking her and she hated it.
> 
> Now obviously this isn't something I judged her by, but the mental picture sucked, and I told her so. There have been things I've not been a fan of with past partners, but I've never felt I had to state those to my wife pre-emptively.
> 
> Basically, there's no way around it a lot of the time. Once you get to know somebody intimately, it's not difficult to figure out how they've arrived at their likes and dislikes in the bedroom, and some people are just less tactful at how they dispense that information.
> 
> For most of us, myself included, it's not a jealousy thing. My wife has more experience than I do. She and I dated as teenagers, and reconnected as adults. She learned a LOT during our time apart - that was very apparent the first time we had sex the second time around. TBH, it was a little disconcerting at first, as we had previous experience with each other, and she had obviously learned a lot, but hey, it benefited me! The same was true in reverse, as I had evolved, too.
> 
> Anyway, we all want partners who know what they're doing in the bedroom - both men and women - but most of us don't want to know where they learned it...


This is going down the road that happens quite frequently. When one asks for details, they get what's coming to them, but an awful lot of the time, details are NOT asked for, and early on, I made it pretty clear to my then girlfriend, now wife, that I had no real interest in knowing her details, nor did I have any interest in talking abut mine.

Beyond just some very basic stuff, our direct conversations didn't involve much detail, but when you have a fairly small, close group of friends, have spent your whole life in one rural place, and slept with over thirty men, those details tend to trickle out over time...specific acts, specific places, specific people, specific dates...none of it asked for by me, much of it not said directly to me, but the more details one has, and the more people who know them, the harder it is to keep them in the past. The mind movies suck, but the fact that my wife is fully open with her sexual desire for me in a way that makes me feel sexually desired goes a long way towards making them palatable.


----------



## Anon1111

*Deidre* said:


> if the couple experienced that during the dating phase, it would be somewhat of a reasonable expectation to think it'd carry on in the marriage.(


I'm not sure it is a reasonable expectation.

I think it's pretty well documented that female desire diminishes pretty substantially somewhere between year 2 and 5 of a relationship. 

This is logical if you consider that a woman would be incentivized to desire her mate long enough to get through the most intense period of child rearing, but then to move on to another mate after that to ensure genetic diversity.

Unfortunately, most people tend to date for a couple of years before marriage, so it seems that many people marry at precisely the time at which desire naturally drops off a cliff.

Hence all of the jokes about wedding cakes.

I realize there are plenty of very happy married couple where both husband and wife desire each other very strongly into old age.

But if you are playing odds, you cannot ignore the significant percentage of couples that have long term issues with mismatched desire.

I think there is a fundamental problem with the concept of long term monogamy.


----------



## Catherine602

Sawney Beane said:


> How does this square with the idea that if you get into a relationship (especially one that appears serious/long term) you owe your partner complete, utter and total transparency, about everything? If you make sex acts an exception, what else would be considered acceptable to not reveal because "it takes away their freedom to explore new and different things"? Previous drug abuse? STIs? Criminal involvement? Mental health issues? Where does the line get drawn, unless you go down the road of "sex is special, sex is different" In which case why isn't (say) mental health special and different too?


Who said anything about aspects of a person past that has a direct impact on who they are? 

How many of the men who demand the truth told their future wives the type of porn they like and how many hrs a day they indulge. How many times a day they masturbated in the past and the fantasies they have had or revealed what body part they are dreaming of when they stare at random women or how many times they think about having sex with those women. 

I thought my husband thought like me, I had no idea he thought about sex so frequently or that he watched porn or masturbated so frequently. 

Was he being deceptive or did he honestly think that these things did not impact the way he felt for me and what he wanted to bring into our lives. Would it have helped me get to know and love him better if he were utterly transparent when we first started our relationship? 

These things, though true, would have confused me and impeded my growth in getting to know him as an individual. I had to learn these things but I needed to understand and know him as a person and a man first.


----------



## Catherine602

Complete transparency is nice as an abstract concept and it is something to work towards. However, transparency does not negate a persons need for privacy or need to take time and effort to get to know a person beyond what they say. 

Transparency cannot be used as a tool to control, coerce, badger, judge or covet. It cannot used to assemble a list of sex acts you entitled to from a woman. 

Transparency is one way gaining knowledge of the other person as an individual and nothing more. What I've read on TAM has convinced me more than ever that women should not give details about past sex acts. 

Sharing details seems to tattoo a sex act menu on your body advertising what's on offer. Not what you want but what the current man is entitled to. 

I have learned from female friends that each relationship is different and unique both emotionally and chemically. The sexual relationship is unique to the two people involved. Is that true for men? 

The "what you did with others..." seems to have nothing to do with intimacy or mutual satisfaction which, is all the more reason not to share. 

Why share something that will be so grossly distorted that instead of enhancing love and intimacy it brings jealousy, entitlement, resentment and anger.


----------



## Catherine602

spotthedeaddog said:


> It means you are an object for her use and satisfaction, and shouldn't expect respect, honesty, or communication from the princess/goddess (depending which she feels she is). Who or what she is, or has done is none of your business because you are not an equal in a partnership or joint life, but merely a hotel to stay at in her journey of self-identify and discovery (read: "crazy").
> 
> Which is why "the good ones" communicate and don't hold out.


See what I mean.


----------



## anonmd

Catherine602 said:


> I have learned from female friends that each relationship is different and unique both emotionally and chemically. The sexual relationship is unique to the two people involved. Is that true for men?
> 
> The "what you did with others..." seems to have nothing to do with intimacy or mutual satisfaction which, is all the more reason not to share.
> 
> Why share something that will be so grossly distorted that instead of enhancing love and intimacy it brings jealousy, entitlement, resentment and anger.



While I'm not sure exactly what chemical means, I'd certainly agree each relationship is unique emotionally. At least if it was a relationship right? 

I guess I'm an oddball, I don't get this whole make a list and be upset if what you two do isn't everything on the list thing. There was a time early on where I was kinda curious and we discussed such things in a general sort of way, then that passed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Catherine602 said:


> The "what you did FOR others..." seems to have nothing to do with intimacy or mutual satisfaction which, is all the more reason not to share.


Let me fix that for you to reflect the true grossness of this entire conversation.


----------



## I Don't Know

It boils down to not wanting to be a paycheck/baby sitter/handyman while other guys got to play with the anything goes good time party girl. We want to be those things too but we want to play as well.

Yes every relationship is different, that's the point. Some guys get wild and crazy, others get hooked. The question I have is why.


----------



## samyeagar

samyeagar said:


> I suppose the starting questions would have to be...
> 
> How do you feel sexually desired?
> 
> How do you know your husband sexually desires you?
> 
> And I suppose the real money question is...
> 
> How important is it to you to feel as if your husband desires you more sexually than other women he has been with?
> 
> If that is not overly important, then this discussion essentially ends. However, if it is important, then the followup question is...how can he make you feel as if he sexually desires you more than the others?


I am interested in how some of the women on this thread would answer these questions, especially...

How important is it to you to feel as if your husband desires you more sexually than other women he has been with?


----------



## anonmd

I Don't Know said:


> It boils down to not wanting to be a paycheck/baby sitter/handyman while other guys got to play with the anything goes good time party girl. We want to be those things too but we want to play as well.
> 
> Yes every relationship is different, that's the point. Some guys get wild and crazy, others get hooked. The question I have is why.


Presumably you got the wild and crazy to get you hooked. Concern that what you to had seems to have slipped away makes sense, why morph that in to "what you did for others"? Stop that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I am interested in how some of the women on this thread would answer these questions, especially...
> 
> How important is it to you to feel as if your husband desires you more sexually than other women he has been with?


I don't even really understand the question. How would one know when one desires someone "more". What does that measuring device even look like?


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't even really understand the question. How would one know when one desires someone "more". What does that measuring device even look like?


Is it important to you that your husband sexually desires you more than other women he has been with sexually?

Would you be OK with feeling as if your husband had a stronger sexual desire for an ex than he has for you?


----------



## Catherine602

Deleted for stupid content.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Catherine602 said:


> Original post Catherine602
> The "what you did with others..." seems to have nothing to do with intimacy or mutual satisfaction which, is all the more reason not to share.
> 
> Changed by @NobodySpecial to
> The "what you did FOR others..." seems to have nothing to do with intimacy or mutual satisfaction which, is all the more reason not to share.
> 
> where the fix is explained.
> 
> My original statement needed no meddling from you. But the fact that you felt the need to change it reveals a problem that is pervasive.


Holy misunderstanding. I was actually agreeing with you.


----------



## Vega

samyeagar said:


> Is it important to you that your husband sexually desires you more than other women he has been with sexually?
> 
> Would you be OK with feeling as if your husband had a stronger sexual desire for an ex than he has for you?


If my husband has a stronger desire with another woman sexually, then why did he marry _*ME*_?


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Holy misunderstanding. I was actually agreeing with you.


It almost seems she thought you were a man


----------



## LucasJackson

Vega said:


> If my husband has a stronger desire with another woman sexually, then why did he marry _*ME*_?


There could be many reasons. He thinks you'd be a great mother for his children. You're a better companion than a lover. He might see you as a madonna and put you on a pedastal, instead of as a *****.

Who knows. Everybody's heart is different.


----------



## anonmd

Vega said:


> If my husband has a stronger desire with another woman sexually, then why did he marry _*ME*_?


Oh, I don't know, maybe she dumped him or said no. :smile2:


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Is it important to you that your husband sexually desires you more than other women he has been with sexually?
> 
> Would you be OK with feeling as if your husband had a stronger sexual desire for an ex than he has for you?


How can that question even be answered? Desire is neither measurable nor a static condition over the course of weeks, month and years of our lives. There have been times when he had NO desire for me if we were having a rough go. 

So... given that the question cannot be answered, I guess I would go with no? It is not important to me to get an answer to this unanswerable question?


----------



## Vega

LucasJackson said:


> There could be many reasons. He thinks you'd be a great mother for his children. You're a better companion than a lover. He might see you as a madonna and put you on a pedastal, instead of as a *****.
> .


_*EXACTLY*_!

The men 'she' was with before may have excelled at sex, but he wasn't the TOTAL PACKAGE. 

Just like a man can have awesome sex with a woman, it doesn't mean that he thinks of her as "wife" material. 

And likewise, a woman can have awesome sex with a man without thinking that he'd make a good husband or a good father, even if the sex is with a long term partner.

Good sex is important, but it's not the ONLY important thing. Good conversation is important. Similar interests in non-sexual things is important. Good character is especially important.


----------



## Catherine602

NobodySpecial said:


> Holy misunderstanding. I was actually agreeing with you.


Sorry @NobodySpecial. My brain is not in gear yet. That what I get for posting so early. 

I just read some of your other post, you said what I am trying to say much better.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Catherine602 said:


> Sorry @NobodySpecial. My brain is not in gear yet. That what I get for posting so early.
> 
> I just read some of your other post, you said what I am trying to say much better.


No worries. I was like... wait, wait, Catherine is usually so sensible! I am going to get more coffee.


----------



## LucasJackson

Vega said:


> _*EXACTLY*_!
> 
> The men 'she' was with before may have excelled at sex, but he wasn't the TOTAL PACKAGE.
> 
> Just like a man can have awesome sex with a woman, it doesn't mean that he thinks of her as "wife" material.
> 
> And likewise, a woman can have awesome sex with a man without thinking that he'd make a good husband or a good father, even if the sex is with a long term partner.


I had sex with a groupie once circa 1985. The most awesome and memorable sexual experience of my life. Nothing will ever top it. This girl was a sexual genius. Would I marry her? No, wouldn't have considered that for a second. She was a skank. You have fun with loose women, you marry a good girl.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> How can that question even be answered? Desire is neither measurable nor a static condition over the course of weeks, month and years of our lives. There have been times when he had NO desire for me if we were having a rough go.
> 
> *So... given that the question cannot be answered, I guess I would go with no? It is not important to me to get an answer to this unanswerable question*?


This is a very important observation...because for some people, it is easily answerable, and for those people, it is important to be desired above all others by their partner.

And I do think it is an answerable question...

In general, how do you feel sexually desired? Words, actions, things like that...


----------



## Catherine602

NobodySpecial said:


> No worries. I was like... wait, wait, Catherine is usually so sensible! I am going to get more coffee.


Not before 12 noon. 
Children off to camp today!!! Maybe I'm drunk with joy.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> This is a very important observation...because for some people, it is easily answerable, and for those people, it is important to be desired above all others by their partner.


I guess I think that is too bad. And if I DID feel this way, I would seek to change that feeling. IMO, it is not possible to always desire your partner more, better, stronger or whatever ALL the time for all the years of marriage.



> In general, how do you feel sexually desired? Words, actions, things like that...


No idea. All of the above? But mostly by having sex.


----------



## LucasJackson

samyeagar said:


> This is a very important observation...because for some people, it is easily answerable, and for those people, it is important to be desired above all others by their partner.
> 
> And I do think it is an answerable question...
> 
> In general, how do you feel sexually desired? Words, actions, things like that...


It's very easily answerable. If you know someone you know what they're feeling. If they desired someone else more, you'd know. If they desired a lot at one time and then less at a later time, you'd know.


----------



## Vega

LucasJackson said:


> I had sex with a groupie once circa 1985. The most awesome and memorable sexual experience of my life. Nothing will ever top it. This girl was a sexual genius. Would I marry her? No, wouldn't have considered that for a second. She was a skank. You have fun with loose women, you marry a good girl.


And how does one determine whether or not a woman is "loose"? There are plenty of men here on TAM who had sex with a woman before a third date, went on to marry her, and are still married decades later. 

The point is, that some men can have great sex with a woman without thinking about turning her into a wife. They may even go so far as to live together, but that's all. 

And a woman can do the same thing. She can have great sex with someone who she'd never consider marrying. 

It's kind of like buying a car. When you first buy a car, you might buy that snazzy little red 2-seater that gets GREAT pick-up hills. You're not concerned about whether it has child-proof locks or what the safety rating of the tires are because you're not seeing that far ahead into the future. 

But once you DO start thinking about the future, you'll starting looking for other qualities. The car you eventually select may not be as great on hills, but it has an awesome sound system AND the child-proof locks AND a terrific safety rating AND a 3 year extended warranty AND it gets GREAT gas mileage! 

Does that mean that when she thinks about that snazzy little 2-seater she used to have that she's CRAVING it? Does she think about it a lot? (hint: Only if she hasn't grown out of that stage of her life!). If anything, she might think about it once in a great while, remember the 'good times' with a smile, and 2.8 seconds later, the thought is gone from her head. *POOF*.

But if she DOES crave it and wants it, then she shouldn't have gotten married.


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> I had sex with a groupie once circa 1985. The most awesome and memorable sexual experience of my life. Nothing will ever top it. This girl was a sexual genius. Would I marry her? No, wouldn't have considered that for a second. She was a skank. You have fun with loose women, you marry a good girl.


Tee hee. So women who love sex are skanks and need to be fvcked and dumped. And men marry "good girls" and wonder why they don't love sex.

LOL


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> If my husband has a stronger desire with another woman sexually, then why did he marry _*ME*_?


Do you have frequent flyer points or a great credit cards rewards program???


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> Tee hee. So women who love sex are skanks and need to be fvcked and dumped. And men marry "good girls" and wonder why they don't love sex.
> 
> LOL


Well, in all fairness, that response pretty much answers the OPs question of why she would do something with other men but not him lol. Obviously since she is married she needs to be a good girl, and doing all the "sex stuff" with her H would invalidate that ...


----------



## LucasJackson

wild jade said:


> Tee hee. So women who love sex are skanks and need to be fvcked and dumped. And men marry "good girls" and wonder why they don't love sex.
> 
> LOL


Nope, you're speaking like a politician now. Was this one particular woman a skank? Most definitely. Are some guys skanks? Oh yeah. Are all women who like sex skanks? Nope. I never said that or suggested it. You added that.


----------



## I Don't Know

Vega said:


> _*EXACTLY*_!
> 
> The men 'she' was with before may have excelled at sex, but he wasn't the TOTAL PACKAGE.
> 
> Just like a man can have awesome sex with a woman, it doesn't mean that he thinks of her as "wife" material.
> 
> And likewise, a woman can have awesome sex with a man without thinking that he'd make a good husband or a good father, even if the sex is with a long term partner.
> 
> Good sex is important, but it's not the ONLY important thing. Good conversation is important. Similar interests in non-sexual things is important. Good character is especially important.


But that's the thing. For guys who this is happening to they don't feel like the total package. They feel like 90% of the package. They check all the boxes except the "drops my panties with a look" box. Maybe that's the only box the other guy checked, but damn that's the one box they always wanted to check.


----------



## norajane

I Don't Know said:


> But that's the thing. For guys who this is happening to they don't feel like the total package. They feel like 90% of the package. They check all the boxes except the "drops my panties with a look" box. Maybe that's the only box the other guy checked, but damn that's the one box they always wanted to check.


Then they should have proposed to the "skank" that they had the best sex with and ignored all the other boxes, right?

I maintain that performing sex acts does not = best sex ever. But it seems that is indeed how a lot of men judge the quality of the sex _other people had that they weren't a part of_, in this thread anyway.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> Well, in all fairness, that response pretty much answers the OPs question of why she would do something with other men but not him lol. Obviously since she is married she needs to be a good girl, and doing all the "sex stuff" with her H would invalidate that ...


Yup. Exactly my point.

Lots of women are "good girls" who've experimented with the wild side. Briefly. Then they go back to being "good girls". If that's who you choose to marry, well, you shouldn't be too surprised if she is too "good girl" to be wild.


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> Nope, you're speaking like a politician now. Was this one particular woman a skank? Most definitely. Are some guys skanks? Oh yeah. Are all women who like sex skanks? Nope. I never said that or suggested it. You added that.


Then why do you say that you have fun with a loose woman, but marry a good girl? Why is "loose" the opposite of "good"?

Sure, there are some people who like sex but only ever have one partner, but that's probably pretty rare in this day and age. 

Why is she a skank and you not? You slept with her after all.


----------



## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> Then they should have proposed to the "skank" that they had the best sex with and ignored all the other boxes, right?
> 
> I maintain that performing sex acts does not = best sex ever. But it seems that is indeed how a lot of men judge the quality of the sex _other people had that they weren't a part of_, in this thread anyway.


Well there's the kicker. What if they never got the "skank"? What if their whole lives were the safe guy or the good guy girls dated and maybe had some mild sex with after they got burned by a bad boy and before they ditched him for the next bad boy?

Or what if they thought they had found that in the woman they married? Thinking wow she does almost everything with me and checks all the other boxes too! Only to find out that for her the great sex box only has a tic mark in it not a full check.


----------



## norajane

I Don't Know said:


> Well there's the kicker. What if they never got the "skank"? What if their whole lives were the safe guy or the good guy girls dated and maybe had some mild sex with after they got burned by a bad boy and before they ditched him for the next bad boy?


What if? Regardless, they shouldn't have proposed to and married someone if they weren't happy with the sex life they were having with that person. If they weren't satisfied, they shouldn't' have proposed. The now-wife isn't responsible for his past mild sex life, and isn't obligated to perform specific acts so he can have the sex life he feels he was cheated out of by his other past partners. 



> Or what if they thought they had found that in the woman they married? Thinking wow she does almost everything with me and checks all the other boxes too! Only to find out that for her the great sex box only has a tic mark in it not a full check.


And how does he "find out" that she only partially checked the great sex box? By comparing past acts she performed with other partners and feeling he's not getting his due? He's making a huge assumption there. That is merely how he is judging great sex, NOT how she may be judging great sex. Which was the point of my post. 

Guys are getting their panties in a wad about specific sex acts (in this thread), and dismissing whether their wives actually judge their sex life by sex acts performed or by the many and varied things that go into quality of sex with a specific person. And, apparently, those same guys will absolutely 100% dismiss, discount, and refuse to believe anything she says except if she says, "You're right. I had much better sex with other people and I am not the least bit attracted to you and settled for you for: reasons." Nothing else will be believed. Makes me *not *wonder why people have such bad sex lives if this is the default thought process.

Those same guys don't even stop to think that, even if she did perform some specific act that she had in the past, it would NOT CHANGE how HE feels about their sex life. Performing that act won't make their sex life the best he's ever had or always wished he had or feels cheated out of having and that he now believes he is OWED. It won't make his fears and insecurity go away.


----------



## LucasJackson

norajane said:


> Then they should have proposed to the "skank" that they had the best sex with and ignored all the other boxes, right?
> 
> I maintain that performing sex acts does not = best sex ever. But it seems that is indeed how a lot of men judge the quality of the sex _other people had that they weren't a part of_, in this thread anyway.


You make a great point. When I was young the quality of sex was determined by the exuberance of the partner and the kink they brought to the table. Love didn't enter into it. As I grew older I evolved. Sex without love is hollow. My view of "best sex ever" has to be with the person that is your whole world, an all-consuming love. That sex, no matter how wild or vanilla, is by far the best sex ever. At some point most people mature and evolve. Some don't, as evidenced by swinging, etc.


----------



## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> What if? Regardless, they shouldn't have proposed to and married someone if they weren't happy with the sex life they were having with that person. If they weren't satisfied, they shouldn't' have proposed. The now-wife isn't responsible for his past mild sex life, and isn't obligated to perform specific acts so he can have the sex life he feels he was cheated out of by his other past partners.
> 
> 
> And how does he "find out" that she only partially checked the great sex box? By comparing past acts she performed with other partners and feeling he's not getting his due? He's making a huge assumption there. That is merely how he is judging great sex, NOT how she may be judging great sex. Which was the point of my post.
> 
> Guys are getting their panties in a wad about specific sex acts (in this thread), and dismissing whether their wives actually judge their sex life by sex acts performed or by the many and varied things that go into quality of sex with a specific person. And, apparently, those same guys will absolutely 100% dismiss, discount, and refuse to believe anything she says except if she says, "You're right. I had much better sex with other people and I am not the least bit attracted to you and settled for you for: reasons." Nothing else will be believed. Makes me *not *wonder why people have such bad sex lives if this is the default thought process.
> 
> Those same guys don't even stop to think that, even if she did perform some specific act that she had in the past, it would NOT CHANGE how HE feels about their sex life. Performing that act won't make their sex life the best he's ever had or always wished he had or feels cheated out of having and that he now believes he is OWED. It won't make his fears and insecurity go away.


A direct response to asking why he didn't marry the "skank".

Well there's the always popular drunken friend. Or in my case mother-in-law that doesn't have a sense of what's appropriate. That's how he finds out about the acts anyway then he fills in the blanks. Yes he's thinking his reasoning is the same as hers. But it's based on input he has from the "you go girl" culture and hearing "there's guys you f**k and guys you marry". Plus if someone likes an act with Mike but not with Dave there's either something about Mike or Dave that makes it so.

No one is owed anything other than a chance to be happy. If it's important to someone to be the best cook "you" ever dated and they are not tell them so they can go be the best cook for someone.


----------



## norajane

If he was happy with his sex life with his wife enough to propose to her and marry her, and if he was happy with his sex life with his wife before the drunken friend or MIL mentioned specific sex acts performed by her in the past...then he most certainly had that chance at happiness you refer to, and always had it, and STILL has it.

If she wasn't the best cook before marriage, he shouldn't have proposed to her, and should have held out for the best cook. If she was the best cook, she STILL IS despite his discovery that she does not now want to screw in a public place or whatever specific act he is using to rate how great he imagines her sex life was with someone else.

His wife may believe he IS the best cook and that IS why she married him (so she had no need to tell him to go cook elsewhere because he's not a good enough cook for her), but because he rates the quality of her past sex life by specific acts performed, he won't ever believe that he is her best cook, so he is causing his own unhappiness.


----------



## I Don't Know

I agree that even if he is the best cook he will never believe it. Maybe for a little while but he will always have spurts of doubt. I think finding out about past sex lives can reveal something about how into you your partner is or if their sex with someone else was better. Not always but sometimes. My wife and I go to sleep spooning every night. I guarantee you if she found out I slept that way with an ex but wouldn't do it with her even though she loves it, she would take that as I don't love her as much or like cuddling with her as much.

It's funny how it's assumed that the wife's ex would have married her if given the chance and that's how we know he's not her best because she didn't marry him. Maybe he dumped her so she ended up with Mr. Almostthebest.


----------



## Sawney Beane

norajane said:


> What if? Regardless, they shouldn't have proposed to and married someone if they weren't happy with the sex life they were having with that person. If they weren't satisfied, they shouldn't' have proposed. The now-wife isn't responsible for his past mild sex life, and isn't obligated to perform specific acts so he can have the sex life he feels he was cheated out of by his other past partners.
> 
> And how does he "find out" that she only partially checked the great sex box? By comparing past acts she performed with other partners and feeling he's not getting his due? He's making a huge assumption there. That is merely how he is judging great sex, NOT how she may be judging great sex. Which was the point of my post.
> 
> Guys are getting their panties in a wad about specific sex acts (in this thread), and dismissing whether their wives actually judge their sex life by sex acts performed or by the many and varied things that go into quality of sex with a specific person. And, apparently, those same guys will absolutely 100% dismiss, discount, and refuse to believe anything she says except if she says, "You're right. I had much better sex with other people and I am not the least bit attracted to you and settled for you for: reasons." Nothing else will be believed. Makes me *not *wonder why people have such bad sex lives if this is the default thought process.
> 
> Those same guys don't even stop to think that, even if she did perform some specific act that she had in the past, it would NOT CHANGE how HE feels about their sex life. Performing that act won't make their sex life the best he's ever had or always wished he had or feels cheated out of having and that he now believes he is OWED. It won't make his fears and insecurity go away.


I wonder if a contributor to this situation is the dichotomy that some people believe that sex will get better as their marriage/relationship progresses, while others find that the high water mark is the runup to the wedding.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> What if she said she wanted to do anal sex on you. Would you be game? suppose she developed a taste for restraints and whips, still game.
> 
> I have a feeling that men would be far less keen to want their wives to bend to their desires if women expressed a need for sex act that would require equal bending.


If I had done it with a previous partner and didn't mind it, I'd do it for her.

I have a feeling that you don't understand what we're talking about.


----------



## notmyrealname4

I Don't Know said:


> But that's the thing. For guys who this is happening to they don't feel like the total package. They feel like 90% of the package. They check all the boxes except the "drops my panties with a look" box. Maybe that's the only box the other guy checked, but damn that's the one box they always wanted to check.


Okay, I'm calling it. The vicious circle of "you did it for other people, but not me", reached 360º with this post.

We're off and running again; it's kinda fun. I think 1000 years from now, people will be having this same debate on the Martian Colonies-----if people are still forming couples and families at that point.


----------



## notmyrealname4

I Don't Know said:


> Well there's the kicker. What if they never got the "skank"? * What if their whole lives were the safe guy or the good guy girls dated and maybe had some mild sex with after they got burned by a bad boy and before they ditched him for the next bad boy?*
> 
> Or what if they thought they had found that in the woman they married? Thinking wow she does almost everything with me and checks all the other boxes too! Only to find out that for her the great sex box only has a tic mark in it not a full check.




Life sucks and then you die!!!


Well, at least you've got TAM to reassure you that you're not alone. You're not the only man (or woman) whom this has happened to.

You're not the most unsexy, undesirable man that the world has ever known. You just happened to fall in love with and marry a woman who got her bell rung a little bit harder with someone else.

Accept it, enjoy sex with your lovely wife as much as possible; and come to TAM to blow off steam when the insecurities and lack of fulfillment are feeling overwhelming.


----------



## notmyrealname4

LucasJackson said:


> I had sex with a groupie once circa 1985. The most awesome and memorable sexual experience of my life. Nothing will ever top it. This girl was a sexual genius. Would I marry her? No, wouldn't have considered that for a second. She was a skank. *You have fun with loose women, you marry a good girl.*


I couldn't resist.

If TAM was an actual physical place, I'd like to stitch this in an embroidery sampler, and frame it and put it on the rec room wall.

It's August 2016, and so little has changed.

Thanks Lucas; these kind of posts help me to keep my bearings.

Heehee, I wonder if your "skank" is now married to @I Don't Know, and he's having nightmares to this day about all the stuff she did with hairbands in the 80's.

To be fair, I'll rub my own nose in it too: your "skank" is the kind of girl my husband did doubletakes at when we would go to concerts; wishing he had the sexual confidence to get with such a prize; then turning around and seeing that he was stuck with me. sniff sniff


----------



## Catherine602

LucasJackson said:


> I had sex with a groupie once circa 1985. The most awesome and memorable sexual experience of my life. Nothing will ever top it. This girl was a sexual genius. Would I marry her? No, wouldn't have considered that for a second. She was a skank. You have fun with loose women, you marry a good girl.


I simply cannot understand what goes on in the mind of men who actually feel this way. I simply don't get it. 

I'm curious. I am going to guess that you are above 50 yrs old? You wrote the above as if it placed you in a good light. Good moral man having fun with women they secretly hold in contempt and bestowing their commitment on a virginal girl. How did that work out? 

Thirty years ago you met a woman with whom you shared a peek sexual experience. One that is still occupies your mind today. You remember the sex fondly but the woman was somehow sullied by sharing with you. Why the dichotomy?

WTF - she shared an awesome experience with you, one that still burns in your memory 30 yrs latter. What did she do to you that was so bad that you need to devalue her?

IMO, you have a problem and you need to fix yourself. You need to go back in your head and thank that young woman for sharing a life-affirming pleasurable experience with you. 

Thank her for 30 yrs of entertainment that sustained you when you male ego needed a boost. You had thirty years to embellish the story of sexual conquests to trot out to all the guys. 

You see, woman are not dirtied by sex or by being sexually generous or giving pleasure or surrendering to a man who appears worthy of trust. 

The dirt comes on the receiving end, in the minds of men who are too small minded and vulcanized to recognize what a great gift sex is for women and men.

Instead of being deeply grateful for having one of the best human experiences in the universe, the purity of sex is dirtied by judgement of women, ugly words, deeds and thoughts directed at women, along with a false sense of superiority.


----------



## LucasJackson

Catherine602 said:


> I simply cannot understand what goes on in the mind of men who actually feel this way. I simply don't get it.
> 
> I'm curious. I am going to guess that you are above 50 yrs old? You wrote the above as if it placed you in a good light. Good moral man having fun with women they secretly hold in contempt and bestowing their commitment on a virginal girl. How did that work out?
> 
> Thirty years ago you met a woman with whom you shared a peek sexual experience. One that is still occupies your mind today. You remember the sex fondly but the woman was somehow sullied by sharing with you. Why the dichotomy?
> 
> WTF - she shared an awesome experience with you, one that still burns in your memory 30 yrs latter. What did she do to you that was so bad that you need to devalue her?
> 
> IMO, you have a problem and you need to fix yourself. You need to go back in your head and thank that young woman for sharing a life-affirming pleasurable experience with you.
> 
> Thank her for 30 yrs of entertainment that sustained you when you male ego needed a boost. You had thirty years to embellish the story of sexual conquests to trot out to all the guys.
> 
> You see, woman are not dirtied by sex or by being sexually generous or giving pleasure or surrendering to a man who appears worthy of trust.
> 
> The dirt comes on the receiving end, in the minds of men who are too small minded and vulcanized to recognize what a great gift sex is for women and men.
> 
> Instead of being deeply grateful for having one of the best human experiences in the universe, the purity of sex is dirtied by judgement of women, ugly words, deeds and thoughts directed at women, along with a false sense of superiority.


I didn't devalue her. I said she was the best. #1. There is no higher value than that. Of course she's a skank. All groupies are. You should see the things they were willing to do for guys in the bands and even friends of guys in the bands and roadies. I could never respect anyone who had so little respect for themselves. It's almost impossible to respect someone that has no self-respect.

As for remembering it all these years later, I also remember real great pizza I'd find along the way on our road trips. No difference.


----------



## LucasJackson

notmyrealname4 said:


> I couldn't resist.
> 
> If TAM was an actual physical place, I'd like to stitch this in an embroidery sampler, and frame it and put it on the rec room wall.
> 
> It's August 2016, and so little has changed.
> 
> Thanks Lucas; these kind of posts help me to keep my bearings.
> 
> Heehee, I wonder if your "skank" is now married to @I Don't Know, and he's having nightmares to this day about all the stuff she did with hairbands in the 80's.
> 
> To be fair, I'll rub my own nose in it too: your "skank" is the kind of girl my husband did doubletakes at when we would go to concerts; wishing he had the sexual confidence to get with such a prize; then turning around and seeing that he was stuck with me. sniff sniff


99% chance she keeps it a secret. Most recovered skanks do. It's cool. I'd never out her. That would be uncool. She probably goes to church now and is one of those holier-than-thou types. I know a couple of women from high school that I'm FB friends with that are like that. Man I could tell some stories about them and their depravity but they're so "holy" these days. It's funny. To be honest, I didn't have much game in the 80's but after we became regionally known as a band, that did the trick. It did really boost my confidence in that area that I could literally point to any of those skanks in the audience and they'd drop pants on request. You'd spot some good girls too that were there for the music but you knew to steer clear of them for "recreation" because you knew they weren't like that.


----------



## Starstarfish

> I could never respect anyone who had so little respect for themselves.


How do you know whether or not she had respect for herself? Simply because women who enjoy sex don't respect themselves? Or only women who are willing to enjoy sex with you?

I mean, damn what does that say about your level of respect for yourself?

I mean, if the whole point is that men really don't respect women who are "willing to do everything" maybe this whole thread now finally has it's answer. All the wives in these scenarios figured out that men don't actually respect or appreciate you being "willing to do everything" so they stopped. They realized that men only want to marry "a good girl." 

Until that double standard changes, gentlemen, I wouldn't expect anything less. Until this idea that enjoying sex and willing to do kinky or "non-vanilla" stuff makes you a "skank" I wouldn't expect the full truth about what women have or haven't done with past partners and I wouldn't expect women who are likely fully aware you married them because they were the "good girl" you could take home to your mother to suddenly become anything else.

It's as I've said before a no win scenario. 

You want to change how women feel about this stuff, start calling out this kind of crap.


----------



## LucasJackson

Starstarfish said:


> How do you know whether or not she had respect for herself?


Had you been there you wouldn't ask that question. When a girl lets a couple roadies pee all over her, that's a pretty clear sign. These women would literally do anything for the bands. Anything. The kicker is, we weren't even huge. Record deal, yes but everybody with long teased hair had record deals back then. We opened for some bands you know but never got to that top tier ourselves yet still the groupies would debase themselves to amazingly low levels just for the kicks of the band and crew. I watched but never partook of the debasing. I don't roll that way.


----------



## notmyrealname4

LucasJackson said:


> Had you been there you wouldn't ask that question. * When a girl lets a couple roadies pee all over her, that's a pretty clear sign*. These women would literally do anything for the bands. Anything. The kicker is, we weren't even huge. Record deal, yes but everybody with long teased hair had record deals back then. We opened for some bands you know but never got to that top tier ourselves yet still the groupies would debase themselves to amazingly low levels just for the kicks of the band and crew. I watched but never partook of the debasing. I don't roll that way.



Lucas,

Do you respect the roadies who peed on the girl? Do you think they are skanks?

I read Stephen Pearcy's book. Yuck. I don't know why girls do those kinda stunts for some guy, just 'cause he's a famous musician.

But I think the guys are pretty nasty to do these things too. Wouldn't you say?


----------



## musicftw07

Personal said:


> There are lots of men who have plenty of experience of that as well.


Indeed we do.

I have a small vibrator I like to use in my butt sometimes. Feels quite nice. My girlfriend likes anal on occasion (although we haven't done it yet) and I mentioned that I enjoy butt-play too and that I thought pegging might be kind of fun to try.

She said, "I've never done that before, but I'm willing to give it a shot."

I also have no issues with my semen being on or in my mouth as a result of our sex play. Happens all the time.

(I fully recognize that not all men fall into these categories. But I chuckled at the notion that men would instantly balk at those ideas. Ladies might be surprised to find out what lies beneath if they keep peeling back layers.)


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> I simply cannot understand what goes on in the mind of men who actually feel this way. I simply don't get it.
> 
> I'm curious. I am going to guess that you are above 50 yrs old? You wrote the above as if it placed you in a good light. Good moral man having fun with women they secretly hold in contempt and bestowing their commitment on a virginal girl. How did that work out?
> 
> Thirty years ago you met a woman with whom you shared a peek sexual experience. One that is still occupies your mind today. You remember the sex fondly but the woman was somehow sullied by sharing with you. Why the dichotomy?
> 
> WTF - she shared an awesome experience with you, one that still burns in your memory 30 yrs latter. What did she do to you that was so bad that you need to devalue her?
> 
> IMO, you have a problem and you need to fix yourself. You need to go back in your head and thank that young woman for sharing a life-affirming pleasurable experience with you.
> 
> Thank her for 30 yrs of entertainment that sustained you when you male ego needed a boost. You had thirty years to embellish the story of sexual conquests to trot out to all the guys.
> 
> You see, woman are not dirtied by sex or by being sexually generous or giving pleasure or surrendering to a man who appears worthy of trust.
> 
> The dirt comes on the receiving end, in the minds of men who are too small minded and vulcanized to recognize what a great gift sex is for women and men.
> 
> Instead of being deeply grateful for having one of the best human experiences in the universe, the purity of sex is dirtied by judgement of women, ugly words, deeds and thoughts directed at women, along with a false sense of superiority.





So, since it's been this way throughout recorded history, for the most part----do you think it will ever change?

What, at this point, would 'cause men to change their thinking about sexually free and wild women?


----------



## Personal

musicftw07 said:


> Indeed we do.
> 
> I have a small vibrator I like to use in my butt sometimes. Feels quite nice. My girlfriend likes anal on occasion (although we haven't done it yet) and I mentioned that I enjoy butt-play too and that I thought pegging might be kind of fun to try.
> 
> She said, "I've never done that before, but I'm willing to give it a shot."
> 
> I also have no issues with my semen being on or in my mouth as a result of our sex play. Happens all the time.
> 
> (I fully recognize that not all men fall into these categories. But I chuckled at the notion that men would instantly balk at those ideas. Ladies might be surprised to find out what lies beneath if they keep peeling back layers.)


I was more referring to homosexuality with men performing oral sex on other men, anyway having said that my response to Vega's post as you describe also applies to some heterosexual men as well.


----------



## LucasJackson

notmyrealname4 said:


> Lucas,
> 
> Do you respect the roadies who peed on the girl? Do you think they are skanks?
> 
> I read Stephen Pearcy's book. Yuck. I don't know why girls do those kinda stunts for some guy, just 'cause he's a famous musician.
> 
> But I think the guys are pretty nasty to do these things too. Wouldn't you say?


I don't know anyone who's ever respected a roadie. Those dudes are freaks! Actually, they work their butts off so we look good and sound good. As for debasing the women, there were only consenting adults in those rooms. Nasty roadies/musicians, and skanky girls. Nobody in the equation was forced to do anything. Everybody was responsible for their own actions. Would I consider as a life partner one of those girls that let guys pee on her after they had just pulled a train on her? No, not for a second.


----------



## Catherine602

I would have been moved to sympathy for these women. 

Disgusting what people think is alright. Just imagining these inhuman men mistreating humans and getting a kick out of it. That is what happens when people of low and corrupt character amass ascendancy and power, they abuse. 

I suppose these cretins are living among normal humans now or are they dead of drug and drink.

You have a problem but it's generational, thank God.


----------



## musicftw07

Personal said:


> I was more referring to homosexuality with men performing oral sex on other men, anyway having said that my response to Vega's post as you describe also applies to some heterosexual men as well.


Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

My post does illustrate that men can enjoy what might be considered "homosexual" acts and yet still be heterosexual and wish to enjoy them with female sex partners.

The rest of this post is not in response to your reply, but just in general.

My girlfriend and I are very open about our past sexual experiences. She's done things I never have, and I've done things she's never have. She wouldn't take back those experiences, and neither would I take back mine. But we do try to find as much overlap and common ground as possible.

Anything she's done with a prior partner *and enjoyed* is fair game. Likewise, anything I've done with a prior partner *and enjoyed* is fair game. We may not do some of those things very often, and they may only be "once in a while" things, but they're not off the table. They key here is *I/she enjoyed the activity.*

My ex wife withheld a lot of sex from me during our marriage, but had no problem giving her AP everything she could offer. Divorce was swift and imminent. And my GF knows all this.

Likewise, my GF's ex husband had good sex with her, but that was the only positive intimacy they had. And she made sure I know this.

So we work hard to ensure that the other has what they were denied: she is more than happy to have passionate, amazing sex with me in a variety of ways. And I'm more than happy to provide her all the positive intimacy outside the bedroom she may need.

For us, transparency worked. Without it, we wouldn't have known what each other's triggers were.

This entire thread seems to illustrate that sex between a couple often leads to a power struggle. Who has the ultimate say over what does and doesn't happen? That kind of thinking ultimately leads to a downfall.

(For the record, if my GF enjoys a particular sex act but for one reason or another refuses to engage in it with me, that would probably end the relationship. I've been walled off by prior partners before, and it's not something I will ever go through again.)


----------



## Catherine602

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, since it's been this way throughout recorded history, for the most part----do you think it will ever change?
> 
> What, at this point, would 'cause men to change their thinking about sexually free and wild women?


"Sexually free and wild women", sounds like a girl group. 

A lot of things exist over millennia and then they don't. Longevity has it's place until it gets in the way of social progress. 

You'er making a value judgement by the construction of your question. What are sexually free and wild women like?


----------



## musicftw07

Catherine602 said:


> I would have been moved to sympathy for these women.
> 
> Disgusting what people think is alright. *Just imagining these inhuman men mistreating humans and getting a kick out of it.* That is what happens when people of low and corrupt character amass ascendancy and power, they abuse.
> 
> I suppose these cretins are living among normal humans now or are they dead of drug and drink.
> 
> You have a problem but it's generational, thank God.


Methinks you're applying your own bias to the situation.

I'm fairly confident that the woman in this equation was consenting to every sexual act that took place, regardless of how disgusting you may think it is.

My feminist GF loves to illustrate that she's a human with agency. I agree. If the woman in this equation was consenting, then she was also a human with agency. Which meant that she was an agent in those activities, not a victim.

You're entitled to believe those acts are disgusting. But shouldn't your ire be directed at the woman who enjoyed it and actively sought to participate? Why should the man be subjugated for accepting what was freely offered by a willing female agent?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

LucasJackson said:


> You make a great point. When I was young the quality of sex was determined by the exuberance of the partner and the kink they brought to the table. Love didn't enter into it. As I grew older I evolved. *Sex without love is hollow. My view of "best sex ever" has to be with the person that is your whole world, an all-consuming love. That sex, no matter how wild or vanilla, is by far the best sex ever. * At some point most people mature and evolve. Some don't, as evidenced by swinging, etc.


Your words here made me think of this article. .. 

For the BEST SEX EVER Emotional Intimacy is key..here's why! ..it's one I saved as it so beautifully spoke everything I have always strongly felt...


----------



## Personal

musicftw07 said:


> Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.
> 
> My post does illustrate that men can enjoy what might be considered "homosexual" acts and yet still be heterosexual and wish to enjoy them with female sex partners.


It's not what you do but who you do it with, that determines whether someone is heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.


----------



## musicftw07

Personal said:


> It's not what you do but who you do it with, that determines whether someone is heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.


Agreed. I just wasn't fully aware of the context of the original post I quoted, which was my bad.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> "Sexually free and wild women", sounds like a girl group.
> 
> A lot of things exist over millennia and then they don't. Longevity has it's place until it gets in the way of social progress.
> 
> You'er making a value judgement by the construction of your question. What are sexually free and wild women like?






> "Sexually free and wild women", sounds like a girl group.


:grin2: Not as catchy as "The Go-Gos", but thanks!

Before I typed my comment yesterday, and again now, I'm trying to think of aspects of human nature that have existed for millennia; but they don't exist anymore.

I can't think of any. I can think of things that have morphed or changed form; but only the form--the essentials have remained the same. Technology has transformed *how* we do a lot of things; but not the basic quality of those things. What is something fundamental about the human race that has completely changed over the millennia? I like your viewpoint and I would be interested in your examples. 'Cause sometimes I get a bit depressed about how it seems that some things will never change. Not that it will affect me, I won't be here in 50 years. But it would be nice to think that there is a better day coming for the human race; and specific to the thread, female sexuality.

Sexually free and wild women; that was the nicest way I could think of saying what I wanted to say, without using a cliche or a slur. Cliches are meaningless, and slurs are what we are trying to dismantle, so:

I guess it means to engage in any desired sexual behaviors, *not encumbered by the double standard*. As in, I'm a dirty skank if I have fun getting urinated on and it's a sexual practice that I seek out. But the guy peeing on me is a sexual success who gets to brag to his pals that he peed on me.

Back to my original question: what would (in your opinion, I know you don't have "the" answer), cause men to change their view of this type of gal. The woman who is game to do it all, with as many men as she is attracted to?


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> 99% chance she keeps it a secret. Most recovered skanks do. It's cool. I'd never out her. That would be uncool. She probably goes to church now and is one of those holier-than-thou types. I know a couple of women from high school that I'm FB friends with that are like that. Man I could tell some stories about them and their depravity but they're so "holy" these days. It's funny. To be honest, I didn't have much game in the 80's but after we became regionally known as a band, that did the trick. It did really boost my confidence in that area that I could literally point to any of those skanks in the audience and they'd drop pants on request. You'd spot some good girls too that were there for the music but you knew to steer clear of them for "recreation" because you knew they weren't like that.


Recovered skanks? You mean the good girls that guys want to marry, but are constantly whining because they won't be as skanky for them as they were in the past?

The irony is so delicious.

It's pretty sad, though, that you think you are so much better than the women you've slept with, and look at them all with such contempt.


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, since it's been this way throughout recorded history, for the most part----do you think it will ever change?
> 
> What, at this point, would 'cause men to change their thinking about sexually free and wild women?


I don't think it's always been this way. Yes, there are a number of cultures that fear and repress women's sexuality and have all kinds of weird notions about how women shouldn't like sex but do it dutifully for their husbands.

But there are others that know that women too have sexual desires and needs. And that it's no dirtier for a woman to enjoy sex than a man.

As a non-recovered "skank" myself, I think those that insist on shaming slvts deserve to end up in relationships where their partners don't want to have sex with them. 

You know, karma and all.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wild jade said:


> As a non-recovered "skank" myself, I think those that insist on shaming slvts deserve to end up in relationships where their partners don't want to have sex with them.


This has always struck me odd. I married a "good girl." She doesn't like sex! Um? Duh?


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> I don't think it's always been this way. Yes, there are a number of cultures that fear and repress women's sexuality and have all kinds of weird notions about how women shouldn't like sex but do it dutifully for their husbands.
> 
> But there are others that know that women too have sexual desires and needs. And that it's no dirtier for a woman to enjoy sex than a man.


Which ones?

This culture has always fascinated me. The Wodaabe. *The men have the most responsibility to be beautiful.*

https://sexselvesandsociety.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/wodaabe-the-people-of-taboo/

And women have some liberties, well sort of:



> Though* women are allowed to have extramarital sex*, it is *not desirable that they appear too easy*, so during sex they will cover their eyes and keep their clothes on (p178)


.




> Wife stealing is very common, a woman may leave her husband if she finds another man more suitable. The (ex)husband will try to look for his wife and try to woo her back, if this is unsuccessful he concedes. *Any children had in previous marriages* (with the exception of newborns) *remain with the previous husband if the wife chooses to leave*. (p. 24).



This is quite different from our culture:



> Not having beauty is a serious downfall, in this culture. Beauty is directly linked with status.* Due to the emphasis on beauty, men will allow their wives to have sex with more handsome men so they can have more handsome children.* Handicaps and asymmetry are looked down upon among the Wodaabe.


----------



## JamesTKirk

NobodySpecial said:


> This has always struck me odd. I married a "good girl." She doesn't like sex! Um? Duh?


There's this guy I know that insists he wants to marry a virgin or a woman that has had less than 1-2 partners ever, and her mid-20's nonetheless. I tell him "You're probably not going to have much sex in your marriage if you marry a 25 year old virgin." SMH.
It would be fine if he didn't care about much sex, but this was in a specific conversation about finding a sexual partner (and ultimately a relationship in his case.)
His hangup was always "her past." So even a "recovered skank" wouldn't do it for him. If anything I think what he's looking for is a virgin or good girl that goes very bad with him. I tried to explain that this doesn't exist and that he's being a moron with this hangup.
I explained to him that I specifically wanted someone almost on the opposite end of the spectrum for a variety of reasons, one being because she'll want to have a lot of sex.
I told him, just marry a woman that is what and how you like. Forget the past. When she chooses you she's chosen you.


----------



## uhtred

Just one data point, but I would be very happy marrying a woman who had engaged in and enjoyed a wide variety of sexual activities. 

If I'd actually thought about it, I would in fact have looked for such a woman. Sex is fun, and I want someone who will enjoy it. 





Starstarfish said:


> How do you know whether or not she had respect for herself? Simply because women who enjoy sex don't respect themselves? Or only women who are willing to enjoy sex with you?
> 
> I mean, damn what does that say about your level of respect for yourself?
> 
> I mean, if the whole point is that men really don't respect women who are "willing to do everything" maybe this whole thread now finally has it's answer. All the wives in these scenarios figured out that men don't actually respect or appreciate you being "willing to do everything" so they stopped. They realized that men only want to marry "a good girl."
> 
> Until that double standard changes, gentlemen, I wouldn't expect anything less. Until this idea that enjoying sex and willing to do kinky or "non-vanilla" stuff makes you a "skank" I wouldn't expect the full truth about what women have or haven't done with past partners and I wouldn't expect women who are likely fully aware you married them because they were the "good girl" you could take home to your mother to suddenly become anything else.
> 
> It's as I've said before a no win scenario.
> 
> You want to change how women feel about this stuff, start calling out this kind of crap.


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> Just one data point, but I would be very happy marrying a woman who had engaged in and enjoyed a wide variety of sexual activities.


That is what I did. Did not work out as I hoped. Well, that is because I figured if she had lots of sex before she met me, she must have enjoyed it. Never assume.


----------



## VladDracul

Lets just cut to the chase. Women don't perform certain sex acts with you because of one of the below. Its not more complicated than that.

1. She decided long ago its not something she would like and has never done it.

2. She tried it and found it to be not pleasurable, maybe painful, and for what ever reason, does not want to do it anymore.

3. She likes or doesn't mind doing it but she's not interested in doing it for/with you. It happens a lot when a woman marries a man primarily for "security". If you live near a military base you see this a lot.


----------



## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> That is what I did. Did not work out as I hoped. Well, that is because I figured if she had lots of sex before she met me, she must have enjoyed it. Never assume.


Good point. Many women go wild not because they love sex, but because they are desperately trying to fill a void or escape pain. And sex is a really great way to get lots of male attention, and it seems to work for a while.

But many of these women will stop once they realize they are not able to achieve what they are after, that sex itself will not provide the escape they seek -- and indeed can make the pain a whole lot worse.


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> Which ones?


Can't really remember the names, unfortunately. This is just from some documentaries I've seen and books I've read over the years.

But here's one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo_women

ETA: I also saw this documentary about a tribe in Africa, and every time it rains they have a giant celebration, and during this the men will compete by dressing up and showing off their moves, and the women get to choose whether or not they want to swap their husbands for one of these guys for some period of time (don't remember how long).


----------



## samyeagar

wild jade said:


> Good point. Many women go wild not because they love sex, but because they are desperately trying to fill a void or escape pain. And sex is a really great way to get lots of male attention, and it seems to work for a while.
> 
> But many of these women will stop once they realize they are not able to achieve what they are after, that sex itself will not provide the escape they seek -- and indeed can make the pain a whole lot worse.


Or they will stop once they DO achieve what they were after.

I think the tricky part is how to tell the difference between someone who just plain likes sex, and one who uses it as a means to an end.


----------



## wild jade

samyeagar said:


> Or they will stop once they DO achieve what they were after.
> 
> I think the tricky part is how to tell the difference between someone who just plain likes sex, and one who uses it as a means to an end.


Ya, it's often difficult to tell if someone is just using you. People can be very convincing liars. At least for a short time.


----------



## VladDracul

wild jade said:


> But here's one
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo_women


"_During these unions a woman may become pregnant by the same man multiple times. But when children are born, they become a responsibility of the woman's family._"

If you change "_by the same man multiple times_" to "_by different men multiple times_" and add "t_he taxpayers_" to the end it reminds me of the U.S. and the Maury Show.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Catherine602* View Post 
_Women may feel pressure to do certain sex acts to fit a norm when they are young and maturing sexually. As they mature, they gain confidence to express their likes and dislikes.
_





notmyrealname4 said:


> Another reason that most men prefer younger women.




Eh no...

Men prefer women that look good, and that are most of the time younger women.

But they also prefer women that are confident, mature and expressing their needs. That are mostly older women. And 'they know things'.

At the end of the day you want a partner that is interesting and fun to be with, and that has nothing to do with age or looks. It is about personality.

You know what is really sexy? A somewhat too fat girl or woman jogging, struggling and sweating, running along the fields. Is does not matter how she exactly looks, it shows she is a fighter and values her body and has the spirit to work on things. That is sexy.


----------



## Catherine602

Quote:
Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
Another reason that most men prefer younger women.

Older men may prefer young woman but do the young women get voice a preference? 

It seems that a young woman who is exploring, would find young men much more compatible. They have awesome stamina, short refractory period, and are at peak physical and sexual attractiveness. 

The notion of young women being more serviceable for older men is a totally different thing than exploring mutual pleasure with someone of the same generation and shared values. 

It's the difference between moving to the next stage with confidence and self esteem vs feeling dirty from being touched by a skank seeker. 


I've seen more undignified, foolish, easy to manipulate, selfish and out of control older men that I care to recall. It is disappointing and sad. It colors my view of men. 

Women get married to a young man that they love and feel loved by. They may hope that he is different and will not turn into the unattractive, uncontrolled, selfish, foolish men they've fended off in the past. 

The possibility that a beloved husband may unconsciously do things that are reminiscent of unpleasant encounters with entitled men is high. 

It would be better for men and woman if we make every attempt to treat each other as individuals and whole human beings. It comes in handy in LTR.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> It seems that a young woman who is exploring, would find young men much more compatible. They have awesome stamina, short refractory period, and are at peak physical and sexual attractiveness.


Absolutely. It's stating the obvious really, but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.


----------



## LucasJackson

NobodySpecial said:


> This has always struck me odd. I married a "good girl." She doesn't like sex! Um? Duh?


Who said good girls don't like sex? You guys have some warped thinking. Good girls reserve it for hubby. It's nothing special when everyone can have a turn.


----------



## JamesTKirk

LucasJackson said:


> Who said good girls don't like sex? You guys have some warped thinking. Good girls reserve it for hubby. It's nothing special when everyone can have a turn.


She's probably a good girl in part because she doesn't like sex or has a very low drive. And "doesn't like sex" could mean that she just has a very low desire for it.


----------



## Catherine602

notmyrealname4 said:


> :grin2: Not as catchy as "The Go-Gos", but thanks!
> 
> Before I typed my comment yesterday, and again now, I'm trying to think of aspects of human nature that have existed for millennia; but they don't exist anymore.
> 
> I can't think of any. I can think of things that have morphed or changed form; but only the form--the essentials have remained the same. Technology has transformed *how* we do a lot of things; but not the basic quality of those things. What is something fundamental about the human race that has completely changed over the millennia? I like your viewpoint and I would be interested in your examples. 'Cause sometimes I get a bit depressed about how it seems that some things will never change. Not that it will affect me, I won't be here in 50 years. But it would be nice to think that there is a better day coming for the human race; and specific to the thread, female sexuality.
> 
> Sexually free and wild women; that was the nicest way I could think of saying what I wanted to say, without using a cliche or a slur. Cliches are meaningless, and slurs are what we are trying to dismantle, so:
> 
> I guess it means to engage in any desired sexual behaviors, *not encumbered by the double standard*. As in, I'm a dirty skank if I have fun getting urinated on and it's a sexual practice that I seek out. But the guy peeing on me is a sexual success who gets to brag to his pals that he peed on me.
> 
> Back to my original question: what would (in your opinion, I know you don't have "the" answer), cause men to change their view of this type of gal. The woman who is game to do it all, with as many men as she is attracted to?


Sorry I did not see your response @notmyrealname4

I don't have a good answer. 

Female sexual development comes under a very robust system of external controls in an attempt to shape sexual behavior so that it benefits others. 

Male sexual development is uncontrolled and behavior is shaped to derive maximum benefit for the self. 

Not exactly that but to some extent true. Men and woman come together in loving relationships and they try to find normal and natural. 

Men know what they want, they have expectations of what they get when they get a wife. They have sexual requirements before they commit and come under the reasonable expectation that they will get love in the form of sexual willingness. 

Women should be brave and express their sexuality to the extent that the expression does not violate ethics or sense of self-respect or self esteem or safety. 

Not the derivative expression popularized by social media, that references what gives men pleasure. Not the service or sacrificial sexuality that passes for liberated female sexuality. 

They should control themselves, never give more than they get and treat men with respect compassion and empathy. 

Which would you rather, a woman that knows herself, likes and respects herself and men, has no sense of shame and feels sex is normal and natural and expects to have it until she dies. 

Or a woman who has been controlled rendering her a normal, natural and very powerful human sexual response distorted. 

Her sexuality is always in reference to what men want. A good prospect for a husband and father gets the all he requires. Not necessarily what she desires because she does not know herself. 

The former is more likely to have positive feelings about sex and men and to feel no need to exert control on the amount of sex her partner gets because she has never felt controlled.


----------



## Starstarfish

LucasJackson said:


> Who said good girls don't like sex? You guys have some warped thinking. Good girls reserve it for hubby. It's nothing special when everyone can have a turn.


So should wives feel the same way? If we are going back to this idea of no pre-marital sex for anyone, that's cool. But if we are continuing this whole "some you bang" and "some you marry" dichotomy where women having sex means they aren't a "good girl" this crap needs to stop. Or the idea that if you had sex before you were married you clearly had it with "everyone."

Did you have sex before you got married, Lucas?


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> Who said good girls don't like sex? You guys have some warped thinking. Good girls reserve it for hubby. It's nothing special when everyone can have a turn.


See the thing is, if you actually like sex, then you are going to be tempted to do it. Often. And reserving it for some mythical potential knight in shining armour that's supposed to come along and sweep you off your feet? 

Well, let's just say that for many that seems foolish, and a complete waste of good times. What is this good girl who likes sex supposed to do if her knight doesn't come? Solo forever?

No thanks. Being a "good girl" seems to me to be making yourself a slave to other people's judgments. I may be judged poorly as a skank, but at least I get to enjoy my life on my own terms. 

And find it easy enough to skirt by guys who seem to want to repress women's sexuality, then chastise and berate them for not being sexual enough.


----------



## LucasJackson

wild jade said:


> See the thing is, if you actually like sex, then you are going to be tempted to do it. Often. And reserving it for some mythical potential knight in shining armour that's supposed to come along and sweep you off your feet?
> 
> Well, let's just say that for many that seems foolish, and a complete waste of good times. What is this good girl who likes sex supposed to do if her knight doesn't come? Solo forever?
> 
> No thanks. Being a "good girl" seems to me to be making yourself a slave to other people's judgments. I may be judged poorly as a skank, but at least I get to enjoy my life on my own terms.
> 
> And find it easy enough to skirt by guys who seem to want to repress women's sexuality, then chastise and berate them for not being sexual enough.


All these words of yours are really saying is you haven't found that special someone so you cynically think it isn't possible. Cheer up or you'll become bitter. There's that one person out there for everyone.


----------



## LucasJackson

Starstarfish said:


> Did you have sex before you got married, Lucas?


More than most men will have in two lifetimes.


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> All these words of yours are really saying is you haven't found that special someone so you cynically think it isn't possible. Cheer up or you'll become bitter. There's that one person out there for everyone.


I've been married for 2 decades now. And had a great run. Fortunately for me, my husband has no issues whatsoever with me having my own sexual identify and has never judged me for it. He realizes that if he's going to call me skanky, that well, he is just as skanky.

I just had to chime in on this thread because of all the double standards I'm seeing, and the serious irony of what a lot of guys seem to want in their women. There are most certainly "good" girls who have restrained themselves until marriage (as long as you don't count any non-PIV sex activity), but they are a rare breed. And may equally reject a guy for his past skankiness.


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> More than most men will have in two lifetimes.


LOL! So you will brag about your own skankiness, but show contempt for women who enjoy sex.

Nice.

NOT!


----------



## NobodySpecial

wild jade said:


> See the thing is, if you actually like sex, then you are going to be tempted to do it. Often. And reserving it for some mythical potential knight in shining armour that's supposed to come along and sweep you off your feet?
> 
> Well, let's just say that for many that seems foolish, and a complete waste of good times. What is this good girl who likes sex supposed to do if her knight doesn't come? Solo forever?
> _
> No thanks. Being a "good girl" seems to me to be making yourself a slave to other people's judgments. I may be judged poorly as a skank, but at least I get to enjoy my life on my own terms.
> 
> And find it easy enough to skirt by guys who seem to want to repress women's sexuality, then chastise and berate them for not being sexual enough_.


IMO someone who is judging you thusly is indicating that THEY are not good partner material.


----------



## giddiot

*Deidre* said:


> I understand, good points.
> 
> I mentioned earlier in this thread about Buddhism, and how it teaches that much suffering comes from attachment. This doesn't mean we shouldn't care about people or fall in love, or even desire things and people, but when we become attached to people and situations, it can create suffering. We shouldn't be so attached to sex or even another person, that we lose our sense of peace in ourselves. Being in love and expressing that love, are beautiful things, but to become obsessed with one's sex life, so much so, that you're comparing yourself to ghosts of your current partner's past, is where the problem is. Not that your partner had a past that you dislike, but rather that you equate the value of your relationship to it.
> 
> That is the problem for everyone, really...we're all human. It's wrong to think that if your spouse does exactly what he/she liked with an ex, but now with you, that everything will be just fine. There's something else going on inside of a person that needs fixing, if he/she is too fixated on what their significant other did with others in bed, from a long time ago. Our lives aren't the sum total of what our significant others think of us, and do with us in bed. Your self worth shouldn't rest on that, anyway. Just my thoughts to it, anyways.




Read about attachment styles, it will explain a lot of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Catherine602

LucasJackson said:


> More than most men will have in two lifetimes.


** Delete function not working **


----------



## wild jade

NobodySpecial said:


> IMO someone who is judging you thusly is indicating that THEY are not good partner material.


Word!!


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> Women should be brave and express their sexuality to the extent that the expression does not violate ethics or sense of self-respect or self esteem or safety.
> 
> Not the derivative expression popularized by social media, that references what gives men pleasure. *Not the service or sacrificial sexuality that passes for liberated female sexuality. *
> 
> They should control themselves, never give more than they get and treat men with respect compassion and empathy.


With regards to what I bolded above:

This is the sexual legerdemain that women have fallen for.

The sexual revolution is said to have mainly benefited women. Usually this refers to birth control; and "The Pill".


But the sexual revolution REALLY helped men, too.

More and easier access to women; without commitment.

Fast forward to today. The progression from the 60's, 70's has seen a massive, commercial sexualization of women. On a scale never seen before. Partly due to technology, but technology is only the tool. It is not the motivation.

Have you noticed that_ as women got more rights,_ heels got w-a-a-a-y higher, stripping and porn have become mainstream and "normalized", pubic hair is to be removed, boobs are to be augmented and enlarged, labiaplasty is "desirable".

I don't think the commensurate increase is a coincidence.

There is probably a minority of women who _genuinely_ enjoy walking in 5 or 6" heels. There is probably a minority of women who enjoy anally fisting themselves up to their elbow. There is probably a minority of women who would get labiaplasty "just for themselves"

But for the most part, women would prefer to walk in 2 or 3" heels. Not have stuff shoved up their rectum to the point of pain. Not slice and cauterize their external genitalia.


But now, doing these type of things is portrayed as "empowering".


----------



## LucasJackson

Catherine602 said:


> Maybe that's why you have such a sad, gray, 2-dimensional, prurient attitude towards women.
> 
> You seem to have squandered the opportunity to have one of the richest experiences in life, getting to know, non biblically, and understand the opposite gender.
> 
> You come off as a prickly, judgmental, cant-tell-me-nothing-about-women, know-it-all type of man.
> 
> It seems to be the malady of the high numbers man from the posts I've read. They waste their youth and vigor in the frantic pursuit of self-centered sex that makes them contemptuous of women. They resent having to hide their contempt to get sex from inferiors.
> 
> At some point in their lives, they find they need life-affirming warmth that only women can provide. They are so played out that they can't get what they need.
> 
> They have a lot to learn so they can fill the void. Most will never understand that the problem lay with them not inferior women.


I was married, devoted, and faithful to one woman since 20 years old. You should stop the amateur psycho-analysis. You suck at it.


----------



## LucasJackson

wild jade said:


> I've been married for 2 decades now. And had a great run. Fortunately for me, my husband has no issues whatsoever with me having my own sexual identify and has never judged me for it. He realizes that if he's going to call me skanky, that well, he is just as skanky.
> 
> I just had to chime in on this thread because of all the double standards I'm seeing, and the serious irony of what a lot of guys seem to want in their women. There are most certainly "good" girls who have restrained themselves until marriage (as long as you don't count any non-PIV sex activity), but they are a rare breed. And may equally reject a guy for his past skankiness.


Nobody said good girls can't have premarital sex. You ASSumed that.


----------



## wild jade

LucasJackson said:


> Nobody said good girls can't have premarital sex. You ASSumed that.


What I was responding to was your claim that good girls reserve it for hubby. 

That implies that any premarital sex would also be with said hubby, does it not?

What happens if Mr. Right doesn't come along in the early years?


----------



## Catherine602

LucasJackson said:


> I was married, devoted, and faithful to one woman since 20 years old. You should stop the amateur psycho-analysis. You suck at it.


The 20 years does not seem to have sweetened your attitude towards women, as reflected in your posts. If your contempt is not due to youthful sexual overindulgence, what is it then

**** NOTE ****
I got it - You were faithful for 20 yrs to a woman who cheated. You were sweet and faithful. I don't blame you for the anger you express now. 

Please make it temporary so that you will enjoy love in the future. *


----------



## Catherine602

*way off-base post, delete function not working*


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
It seems that a young woman who is exploring, would find young men much more compatible. They have awesome stamina, short refractory period, and are at peak physical and sexual attractiveness. 

Absolutely. It's stating the obvious really, but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.
...

with less skill, less experience, often completely self-absorbed. ok I suppose if she's the same


----------



## Catherine602

spotthedeaddog said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
> It seems that a young woman who is exploring, would find young men much more compatible. They have awesome stamina, short refractory period, and are at peak physical and sexual attractiveness.
> 
> Absolutely. It's stating the obvious really, but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.
> ...
> 
> with less skill, less experience, often completely self-absorbed. ok I suppose if she's the same


Is this a convincing pick up line in the PUA community for a 40 yo D man trying to convince a young girl to give him sex?

Age, number of years sexually active and number of partners does not make a good lover.

Besides, older men trolling for young girls are not on public service missions. They are not looking to give these girls what they can't find with younger men. 

It takes time an effort to find out what good loving is for the woman you are with. Every woman is different so a good lover knows it will be like his first time with every new woman if the goal is mutual pleasure. 

So every man and woman comes together like amateurs in the beginning, no matter what their age or experience. 

Older men are not less self-absorbed than young men. They may actually be more self-absorbed if they are pursuing young girls for sex. They are sure that they are superior lovers; any man who is that sure is already a bad lover. 

My money in on the inexperienced young guy for a more satisfying sexual experience.


----------



## Personal

Skill and experience isn't always inherent in older men just as a lack of the same isn't always inherent in younger men. Likewise talent and excellence isn't inherent in all no matter how much practice they have had.


----------



## JohnA

That #1 experience? There where two shanks involved one of them you. You wouldn't marry because of what she did, or she did not have the maturity to marry at the time?

It takes a life time to reconcile lust vs love and respect. Could this be a better focus for you?


----------



## LucasJackson

Catherine602 said:


> The 20 years does not seem to have sweetened your attitude towards women, as reflected in your posts. If your contempt is not due to youthful sexual overindulgence, what is it then


I take people as they are, not because of their gender. If I'm not nice to you it's because you're not a nice person. If you don't own a mirror, I'll buy you one.


----------



## LucasJackson

Catherine602 said:


> First of all, I'm impressed by your use of the term skank. I have never seen it used, not once, but many times. Is it a term that you used in HS?
> 
> The lack of self-control, exposure to disease and the effect of sensory overload of sex on demand must have had an effect on your maturation into adulthood.
> 
> You think that roadies are skanks, but you had sex with them anyway so what does that make you?
> 
> You sound like you are stuck in HS. Ruminating about the depravity of women you actually befriended on FB from HS days. Adolescent boys are preoccupied with judging girls in reference to sex and holding on to destructive secrets to make them feel powerful.
> 
> Are you FB friends with the boys with whom they had these so called depraved experiences? Do you have the urge to spill their secrets?
> 
> I might be wrong but I think you have issues. You imply that these FB friends are deceptive and you accuse them of having a false sense of superiority. You are not their friend, so who is the deceiver? You judge them so who is holler-than-thou.
> 
> You imply that even though they now go to church and live blameless lives that they can never remove the stain of their sexual sins. Read the Bible with an open heart and clean mind. And then read it again, so it touches your heart.
> 
> Drop these FB frenemies, and work on empathy, compassion and forgiveness towards men and women.
> 
> Finally, you seem to have strange ideas about sex, moral responsibility and the nature of respect both given and received. The band members did not deserve respect for their behavior.
> 
> Anyhow, you are not powerful because he hold the sex secrets of a few women from HS. Forget them and focus on accomplishing goals that increase your sense of mastery.


You sure seem obsessed with me. I see why you have issues. Your dad is a real sicko. I'm sorry you went through that. Peace.


----------



## wild jade

Old dudes going after younger women tend to be the sort that want someone to bat their eyelashes and admire them. They want to feel superior, in control, powerful, and they only really want someone they can easily manipulate. They are IMHO more likely to be selfish and entitled in bed and think it's all about them.

People who are good in bed are so because they are giving and generous and want the other person to have a really great time. 

A little chemistry helps too.


----------



## VladDracul

My problem Jade is that when you get my age a 50 year old woman is a young chick. And they've been around long enough not to go for that. "They want to feel superior, in control, powerful, and they only really want someone they can easily manipulate." crap.


----------



## Catherine602

LucasJackson said:


> You sure seem obsessed with me. I see why you have issues. Your dad is a real sicko. I'm sorry you went through that. Peace.


Please forgive me @LucasJackson I did not read your story before responding to your posts on this thread. 

I can see that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you that time will not heal. The deception, selfishness and skankyness of a cheating spouse is astounding. 

They deserve what ever they get. My father cheated throughout my parents marriage, so on one level, I know the destruction it brings. 

Remember not to get stuck in this stage. You will need to heal and move on.


----------



## Catherine602

notmyrealname4 said:


> With regards to what I bolded above:
> 
> This is the sexual legerdemain that women have fallen for.
> 
> The sexual revolution is said to have mainly benefited women. Usually this refers to birth control; and "The Pill".
> 
> 
> But the sexual revolution REALLY helped men, too.
> 
> More and easier access to women; without commitment.
> 
> Fast forward to today. The progression from the 60's, 70's has seen a massive, commercial sexualization of women. On a scale never seen before. Partly due to technology, but technology is only the tool. It is not the motivation.
> 
> Have you noticed that_ as women got more rights,_ heels got w-a-a-a-y higher, stripping and porn have become mainstream and "normalized", pubic hair is to be removed, boobs are to be augmented and enlarged, labiaplasty is "desirable".
> 
> I don't think the commensurate increase is a coincidence.
> 
> There is probably a minority of women who _genuinely_ enjoy walking in 5 or 6" heels. There is probably a minority of women who enjoy anally fisting themselves up to their elbow. There is probably a minority of women who would get labiaplasty "just for themselves"
> 
> But for the most part, women would prefer to walk in 2 or 3" heels. Not have stuff shoved up their rectum to the point of pain. Not slice and cauterize their external genitalia.
> 
> 
> But now, doing these type of things is portrayed as "empowering".


I've seen this in pop culture but not IRL. Women in entertainment wearing less and less clothes, competing for exposure of every body part, begging to be objectified. Give it about a year, they will be matching out in saran wrap clothing.

The most confusing is the pop culture sex advice that women are given. Giving a good bj empowers a woman because she is in charge of his pleasure. Who thinks these things up?? 

Since when is performing a sex service a source of power? Try feeding the homeless, volunteering at a women's shelter, taking jujitsu or being proficient in a career to really know the power of meaningful industry. 

What shall I tell my daughter when she is coming of age? Some of this empowering sh!t is so stupid that my mind freezes when I try to think of how I can prepare her to be self-directed, confident and respectful of herself and others. 

I don't want her to be inhibited like I am but at the same time, I want her to control and value what she has.


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Old dudes going after younger women tend to be the sort that want someone to bat their eyelashes and admire them. They want to feel superior, in control, powerful, and they only really want someone they can easily manipulate. They are IMHO more likely to be selfish and entitled in bed and think it's all about them.


I wouldn't give a crap about all of that. Women under 30 just look sooooo good. But since I'm not on the market it's a moot point.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

wild jade said:


> Old dudes going after younger women tend to be the sort that want someone to bat their eyelashes and admire them. They want to feel superior, in control, powerful, and they only really want someone they can easily manipulate. They are IMHO more likely to be selfish and entitled in bed and think it's all about them.
> 
> 
> 
> People who are good in bed are so because they are giving and generous and want the other person to have a really great time.
> 
> 
> 
> A little chemistry helps too.




I guess I don't understand why an older woman can't bat her eyelashes and admire her man? Does that make her lose something somehow?


----------



## wild jade

larry.gray said:


> I wouldn't give a crap about all of that. Women under 30 just look sooooo good. But since I'm not on the market it's a moot point.


That might just work for ONS. Especially if you don't leave time for talking.

Any longer, and yes, in the vast majority of cases it's some damaged dude who's looking to feed his ego with either the envy of his buddies or a woman he can manipulate and feel superior to.

Either way, he's not connecting with a real person, just a sex toy. 

(Most times. Extreme age differences can work in real relationships. But it's relatively rare.)


----------



## wild jade

WorkingOnMe said:


> I guess I don't understand why an older woman can't bat her eyelashes and admire her man? Does that make her lose something somehow?


A younger woman is (typically) easier to impress than an older woman. And admiration is something you earn. Not something you automatically get.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

wild jade said:


> A younger woman is (typically) easier to impress than an older woman. And admiration is something you earn. Not something you automatically get.




So you think giving compliments diminishes your power in a relationship? That's what it means to get old? No wonder single men want younger women.


----------



## wild jade

WorkingOnMe said:


> So you think giving compliments diminishes your power in a relationship? That's what it means to get old? No wonder single men want younger women.


Huh? Who said anything about compliments diminishing power? I'm happy to dish them out. But they have to be sincere. 

No, what I said was the men that chase younger women are typically the ones who care about power in a relationship -- they want it all, and they don't particularly want to earn it, deserve it, or work for it. So they pick people who are easy to impress and manipulate.

If that's what you want from a relationship, by all means, don't let me stop you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

wild jade said:


> Huh? Who said anything about compliments diminishing power? I'm happy to dish them out. But they have to be sincere.
> 
> 
> 
> No, what I said was the men that chase younger women are typically the ones who care about power in a relationship -- they want it all, and they don't particularly want to earn it, deserve it, or work for it. So they pick people who are easy to impress and manipulate.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's what you want from a relationship, by all means, don't let me stop you.




You sound like you "want" to be unimpressed.


----------



## wild jade

WorkingOnMe said:


> You sound like you "want" to be unimpressed.


Again, huh?

I've dated some guys who were much older than me. And I've also watched friends go with age-inappropriate guys. And sure, very occasionally it actually works out somewhat reasonably. But mostly those guys are emotionally immature, totally broken, and desperately trying to feed their egos with a hot young sex toy. What's to be impressed about? I'm supposed to go gaga because he has a hot trans am with cool fuzzy dice?

Emotionally mature, sane, non-broken guys who have their sh1t together and are worthy of admiration and lots of compliments tend to go for people they can actually relate to, even if the relationship itself is casual. This usually involves someone age-appropriate and with similar values and outlook.


----------



## VladDracul

Catherine602 said:


> What shall I tell my daughter when she is coming of age? Some of this empowering sh!t is so stupid that my mind freezes when I try to think of how I can prepare her to be self-directed, confident and respectful of herself and others.


Teach her what her mother knows milady---about not allowing herself to be vulnerable to manipulation imposed on us by the media and that human sexuality is clearly the area of life most subject to manipulation, that obscenities are masked as "being cool", and gullibility is passed off as sophistication.


----------



## MrsHolland

larry.gray said:


> I wouldn't give a crap about all of that. Women under 30 just look sooooo good. But since I'm not on the market it's a moot point.


For casual yes, looks are all that matters. Men under 30 look pretty damn good too but they are still so immature, fun but immature.

The problem is that by 50 a lot of men have really deteriorated, there are a lot of very unf.uckable men out there (if you don't believe it do a search on any OLD site).


----------



## bandit.45

MrsHolland said:


> For casual yes, looks are all that matters. Men under 30 look pretty damn good too but they are still so immature, fun but immature.
> 
> The problem is that by 50 a lot of men have really deteriorated, there are a lot of very unf.uckable men out there (if you don't believe it do a search on any OLD site).


Hey I resent that.


----------



## Chuck71

Will this thread ever be converted to audio?


----------



## MrsHolland

bandit.45 said:


> Hey I resent that.


My guess is that you are the exception to the rule >


----------



## bandit.45

MrsHolland said:


> My guess is that you are the exception to the rule >


No. 

No, I look like ET with my shirt off. Hence my singledom.


----------



## MrsHolland

bandit.45 said:


> No.
> 
> No, I look like ET with my shirt off. Hence my singledom.


My real point is that while people are usually in better shape when younger, both men and women age at the same rate. A mature person is OK with that and can still be attracted to those in their own age group. For some weird reason some men think that only women deteriorate and not men so therefore the average 50 year old can get with a much younger woman. I can't remember the last time I saw a couple with a 20 year age gap. A good looking 30 year old woman generally can get plenty of men in her age bracket, she really isn't looking for an old man. When I was 30, a 50 year old was the age of my Dad, yuk and yuk.

I have been with all sorts, younger, older, same gender, extremely good looking, average looking, rich, poor etc. The best sex ever IME is with someone that you can connect with on all levels and for me that is a man around 5 or 6 years older. At 30, the thought of sex with a 50 year old was disgusting.

Oh and bandit, you are witty, if you have a great SOH and sense of self the ET issues can be overlooked.


----------



## EllisRedding

So now we are on to what age groups we find attractive :grin2:


----------



## Catherine602

VladDracul said:


> Teach her what her mother knows milady---about not allowing herself to be vulnerable to manipulation imposed on us by the media and that human sexuality is clearly the area of life most subject to manipulation, that obscenities are masked as "being cool", and gullibility is passed off as sophistication.


You remember what you were like when you were in your teens and early 20's? For me, adult voices became muffled and my friends and the wider world became my teachers. 

Normal developmental stage I guess, independence and mastery. If our culture were not so toxic in so many areas, I would not worry. Maybe things will swing back to center in the next generation. 

They may see how small a legacy the generation preceding them left. If they are able to turn away from living virtual lives on social media like we are doing now and get out and live, that would be good.


----------



## Catherine602

Re men's attraction to younger women, part of the attraction is the that young women are not so jaded that they can't admire men. As men and women age they collect disappointments and lose hope and faith in life at times. Healing fixes that. 

It's nice to have someone look up to us and admire who we are. Men like the way they feel with young women and of course looking good does not hurt. 

Women of any age who retain faith and hope despite disappointments are attractive too. I've seen it with my older aunts. 

They are weight appropriate, active, funny as hell and attractive. They are in loving marriages to men they met in their fifties. They like men and look up to their husbands even though they divorced cheating first husbands.


----------



## anonmd

I've got no issue with 50 something looks. It's the possible effects of menopause I'd be very leery of. How's 'do you have any genetic factors that would contraindicate hormone replacement if needed?' as a first date question .

On the other hand, a general non-prudish outlook could compensate for a lot.


----------



## EllisRedding

First off, what are the parameters for defining who is considered younger, older, or in you age group? I personally am not attracted to older women, but once again, I think it comes down to what "older" is defined as. May be worth starting a new thread on this topic 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAMAT

wild jade said:


> Again, huh?
> 
> I've dated some guys who were much older than me. And I've also watched friends go with age-inappropriate guys. And sure, very occasionally it actually works out somewhat reasonably. But mostly those guys are emotionally immature, totally broken, and desperately trying to feed their egos with a hot young sex toy. What's to be impressed about? I'm supposed to go gaga because he has a hot trans am with cool fuzzy dice?
> 
> Emotionally mature, sane, non-broken guys who have their sh1t together and are worthy of admiration and lots of compliments tend to go for people they can actually relate to, even if the relationship itself is casual. This usually involves someone age-appropriate and with similar values and outlook.


The feeding the ego need is often a characteristic of serial OMs they get women addicted to them by manipulating them into thinking they are the perfect man. 

My W's friend in her 50s was like that when this preacher dude in his 70s wanted to marry her, ended badly as the guy was addicted to a good public image and married someone he thought was better.

Tamat


----------



## wild jade

Catherine602 said:


> Re men's attraction to younger women, part of the attraction is the that young women are not so jaded that they can't admire men. As men and women age they collect disappointments and lose hope and faith in life at times. Healing fixes that.
> 
> It's nice to have someone look up to us and admire who we are. Men like the way they feel with young women and of course looking good does not hurt.
> 
> Women of any age who retain faith and hope despite disappointments are attractive too. I've seen it with my older aunts.
> 
> They are weight appropriate, active, funny as hell and attractive. They are in loving marriages to men they met in their fifties. They like men and look up to their husbands even though they divorced cheating first husbands.



Younger women are better because they are not so jaded? Really?

When I was in my teens I dated this guy who was 40+. Don't ask me why because I don't really remember. This guy had a son who was older than me. And let me tell you it was creepy all around. He was emotionally stunted, immature, and most certainly just wanted me because I was naive. 

When I was in school, I knew this prof who was into sleeping with all his students. Well the ones that would have him any way, LOL. He was completely narcissistic and loved to play sage on the stage with his adoring fans. Again, emotionally stunted and unable to relate to women as people. 

I could go on. I've met, dated, had friends who've dated a lot of guys, actually, who chase younger chicks. And yes, absolutely, they want to be admired, in control, and feel superior.

So not wanting to play that game makes a woman jaded and undesirable? Well, sign me up, then. I've no patience for people who can't handle a woman with an independent mind. 

Fortunately for me, there are lots of men who are emotionally mature, have their sh!t together, and much prefer age-appropriate, independent women with similar values and outlook.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> Younger women are better because they are not so jaded? Really?
> 
> When I was in my teens I dated this guy who was 40+. Don't ask me why because I don't really remember. This guy had a son who was older than me. And let me tell you it was creepy all around. He was emotionally stunted, immature, and most certainly just wanted me because I was naive.
> 
> When I was in school, I knew this prof who was into sleeping with all his students. Well the ones that would have him any way, LOL. He was completely narcissistic and loved to play sage on the stage with his adoring fans. Again, emotionally stunted and unable to relate to women as people.
> 
> I could go on. I've met, dated, had friends who've dated a lot of guys, actually, who chase younger chicks. And yes, absolutely, they want to be admired, in control, and feel superior.
> 
> *So not wanting to play that game makes a woman jaded and undesirable? Well, sign me up, then. I've no patience for people who can't handle a woman with an independent mind. *
> 
> Fortunately for me, there are lots of men who are emotionally mature, have their sh!t together, *and much prefer age-appropriate,* independent women with similar values and outlook.


Can you please define younger as per the bolded you seem to imply that "young" women don't have a mind of their own. Also, please define age appropriate ...


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> Can you please define younger as per the bolded you seem to imply that "young" women don't have a mind of their own. Also, please define age appropriate ...


It's funny you bring that up. When I was that young woman, I would've been very unhappy if someone suggested that I didn't know my own mind.

But truth is, I was naive. And a whole lot easier to manipulate. I had no experience with people who might deceive me, or do me harm, or who had no care for me. I had no experience of the world, of human motives, of all kinds of things. 

So I hear what you're saying, and am not trying to criticize all young women. Not by any stretch. They can be immensely smart and talented. 

But older guys running after these women are usually not the healthy, mature, sane ones with their sh!t together. Yes, there are exceptions. I have a couple of friends who married guys 20 years their senior and had very happy relationships (although have some regrets now as they watch their husbands fall apart while they are still healthy).

But in most cases, an older guy chasing a chick who is much younger than him is making a fool of himself.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> It's funny you bring that up. When I was that young woman, I would've been very unhappy if someone suggested that I didn't know my own mind.
> 
> But truth is, I was naive. And a whole lot easier to manipulate. I had no experience with people who might deceive me, or do me harm, or who had no care for me. I had no experience of the world, of human motives, of all kinds of things.
> 
> So I hear what you're saying, and am not trying to criticize all young women. Not by any stretch. They can be immensely smart and talented.
> 
> But older guys running after these women are usually not the healthy, mature, sane ones with their sh!t together. Yes, there are exceptions. I have a couple of friends who married guys 20 years their senior and had very happy relationships (although have some regrets now as they watch their husbands fall apart while they are still healthy).
> 
> But in most cases, an older guy chasing a chick who is much younger than him is making a fool of himself.


I am still curious (not necessarily directed at you, moreso based on the topic here), what defines age appropriateness? Would it be a 5 yr difference, 10 yr difference, 15 yr difference? Likewise, dating in your age group, what are the parameters (i.e. someone 3 +/- years from you is considered your age group)? I would guess everyone has a different definition of this which can definitely impact their view on this.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> I am still curious (not necessarily directed at you, moreso based on the topic here), what defines age appropriateness? Would it be a 5 yr difference, 10 yr difference, 15 yr difference? Likewise, dating in your age group, what are the parameters (i.e. someone 3 +/- years from you is considered your age group)? I would guess everyone has a different definition of this which can definitely impact their view on this.


And some of it is relative too. When you are 15 a 5-year difference is a whole lot more significant than when you are 50.

My point is not to make any rules about who should or shouldn't be together, or who they should be attracted. It's just that the conversation upthread seemed to be suggesting that older men are always more desirable somehow, even to younger women. And that's simply not true.

FWIW, most of the examples I gave were in an around a 20 year age difference.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> And some of it is relative too. When you are 15 a 5-year difference is a whole lot more significant than when you are 50.
> 
> My point is not to make any rules about who should or shouldn't be together, or who they should be attracted. * It's just that the conversation upthread seemed to be suggesting that older men are always more desirable somehow, even to younger women. * And that's simply not true.
> 
> FWIW, most of the examples I gave were in an around a 20 year age difference.


The 20 yr age difference puts me in the illegal category (assuming I am talking about younger and not older!), think I will pass  10 year difference (younger) would seem more appropriate for me at least.

Per the bolded, would be interesting to see if there are any statistics that should the % of older men w/ younger women vs. older women w/ younger men. Just going based purely on people I know, nearly all couples are either approx same age or the male is older (upwards of 5-10+ yrs). Can't think of any where the female is substantially older than the male (once again, just based on people I know)


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> The 20 yr age difference puts me in the illegal category (assuming I am talking about younger and not older!), think I will pass  10 year difference (younger) would seem more appropriate for me at least.
> 
> Per the bolded, would be interesting to see if there are any statistics that should the % of older men w/ younger women vs. older women w/ younger men. Just going based purely on people I know, nearly all couples are either approx same age or the male is older (upwards of 5-10+ yrs). Can't think of any where the female is substantially older than the male (once again, just based on people I know)


LosingHim, Maricha, and Blossom are all with guys 6 years younger.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> LosingHim, Maricha, and Blossom are all with guys 6 years younger.


I never said there weren't women with younger men, just that from my experience I have noticed that for the most part it is men with younger women, at least people I know IRL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vega

wild jade said:


> It's just that the conversation upthread seemed to be suggesting that older men are always more desirable somehow, even to younger women. And that's simply not true.


The last 'man' I was with was 14 years younger than me. He pursued me heavily for several months. I kept asking him why he would want someone as old as me and he kept telling me that "age didn't matter". 

He told other people that it _did_ matter. 

After all was said and done, he started pursuing a woman who was 16 years younger than he was. She was in her late 20's and he is in his mid 40's. He couldn't understand why she wouldn't 'go out' with him (read: have sex with him). She told a group of us, "He's in his 40's. I'm in my 20's. I want to grow old _with_ someone. I don't want someone who's already there!" 

Can we say k-a-r-m-a? :grin2:


----------



## anonmd

I think the reasonable age gap gets larger as you get older. 

I also think the changing workplace (changed) and economics makes the biggest difference early on. Women on average are looking for a bit of economic security pre-childbirth. As more and more jobs require a college degree it takes longer and longer for men to get even slightly established economically. If a women less than 30 is dating with purpose to settle down there aren't that many guys under 25 or even 30 that any sort of economic stability, Prospects for the future maybe but not current stability. She is going to tend towards a few years older. Which is not to say she is out to marry a "rich guy", just practical.

FWIW, my mother was 3 years older than my father. Seems to contradict my point but not really, he had one of those good well paying physical labor union jobs that a GED was good enough for after a couple years in the army. Things have changed on average . I was 26 or 27 by the time I finished my work while you school 1/2 time degree.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

The accepted norm is 1/2 your age plus 8.


----------



## Catherine602

No @wild jade not better but more attractive than a woman who has suffered setbacks and not yet recovered equanimity. You are right, not all young women are untouched by negative events and naturally, negative feelings. 

I'm not judging, just repeating what I've been told by my brother and what I've read. Compatibility with a partner is partly based on how they make you feel when you are with them. 

From what I've observed, age and gender does not seem to stand in the way of finding love and happiness. The only thing that seems to matter is faith in the future and hope.


----------



## Married but Happy

WorkingOnMe said:


> The accepted norm is 1/2 your age plus 8.


I think if they're over 25, they can make their own decisions regardless of what anyone else thinks. Plenty will think negatively anyway, but it's not their business. No doubt there are some narcissistic, manipulative, or controlling men who target naïve young women (or would if they could actually get one to date them!). And there are plenty of normal men who just happen to wind up dating a much younger woman without "chasing" them.

I do tend to believe the research that indicates relationships tend to work and last best if there is less than 10 years difference in age. I have dated a few considerably younger women who _pursued me_, once I was sure they were doing so for what I considered the "right" reasons.


----------



## Catherine602

Women in their early 20's who are not outright hideous, seem to have become a kind of prize to men who feel they are entitled to all the fine objects in life. 

These men are usually middle-aged, relatively rich and powerful, some are quite unattractive both physically and personally. What they lack in drawing power and confidence as a man is made up by the drawing power of money and power. 

There is no shortage of women who will give up love and passion to gain access to lots of money. I wonder what really goes on behind closed doors. I can't image young women who can have young men at their peak sexual attractiveness, looking forward to intimate encounters with men like Trump or Ailes. 

If you love a person, their age-related changes are blurred but if you don't love them, every flaw may appear in sharp relief. 

Money can buy a beautiful young woman but not her sexual desire.


----------



## Anon1111

MrsHolland said:


> For casual yes, looks are all that matters. Men under 30 look pretty damn good too but they are still so immature, fun but immature.
> 
> The problem is that by 50 a lot of men have really deteriorated, there are a lot of very unf.uckable men out there (if you don't believe it do a search on any OLD site).


right

it's not really a gender thing

under 30 (really under 25), many people can look OK without really trying

past that it takes effort so the pool diminishes

if you only want attractive people, you are going to be looking younger based on sheer numbers


----------



## jld

I think my neighbor is attractive, and he is 70. 

It is not that he is anything special physically. But he is a real man, you know? Down to earth, hard worker all his life, compassionate and realistic. No arrogance at all.

A good heart like that is very attractive, at any age.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> Older men may prefer young woman but do the young women get voice a preference?


Of course, kind of weird that you might be assuming that anyone might have been claiming that they didn't.



Catherine602 said:


> I've seen more undignified, foolish, easy to manipulate, selfish and out of control older men that I care to recall. *It is disappointing and sad. It colors my view of men. *


Me too!

Makes me ashamed of my gender when I see this.


----------



## Begin again

nogutsnoglory said:


> LOL, me too. I am hoping I can see if there is some female logic used that shows consideration for the man. We shall see, I guess.


I think your attitude may be a big reason she's not game for more adventure in the bedroom. Let's see... You used the term "deceived," you said you thought you two were of similar "morals" (but not now since she won't do whatever it is you are looking for) and now she doesn't show her man "consideration."

Wow! What a turn off that would be for me. I wouldn't want to explore with a man who is so angry and judgmental. I want to have fun, and what you've done is remove the fun and playfulness and replaced it with your expectations... And it's not working for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon1111

men and women tend to value different attributes.

this has a natural effect on what age groups are perceived as most attractive (in general).

for example, men tend to value more highly outward signs of fertility

women tend to value evidence of physical/social dominance

it's unlikely that a very young man will seem physically/socially dominant compared to slightly older men. 

there are exceptions (pop stars, actors, pro athletes) and these guys are undeniably at the top of the heap. 

for most men though, they reach peak attractiveness a bit older than women due to the fact that it takes time to build this out. 

it's not just about money-- even physical stuff generally reflects this. Peak testosterone production tends to occur in mid 30s. top weightlifters and bodybuilders tend to be in this age range too. Men who stay in shape in their 30s tend to look more "manly" than guys in their 20s. 

by contrast, women look most "fertile" when younger. you can fight this and say it's not fair, but it's just reality. it's not really specific to any particular culture.

this does not mean that there are not attractive older women. these are just generalities at why there are general age differences in general levels of attractiveness.

the average woman will the most options in her 20s whereas the average man will have the most options in his 30s.

the average man will NEVER have as many options as the average woman though.

women are generally more selective.


----------



## Buddy400

LucasJackson said:


> Who said good girls don't like sex? You guys have some warped thinking. Good girls reserve it for hubby. It's nothing special when everyone can have a turn.


I think a more palatable definition for "good-girl" would be "someone who saves it for people with they are in a significant relationship with".

This definition, of course, would only apply to people who would see a woman having unrestricted sex as a negative.


----------



## Buddy400

larry.gray said:


> I wouldn't give a crap about all of that. Women under 30 just look sooooo good. But since I'm not on the market it's a moot point.





wild jade said:


> Again, huh?
> 
> I've dated some guys who were much older than me. And I've also watched friends go with age-inappropriate guys. And sure, very occasionally it actually works out somewhat reasonably. But mostly those guys are emotionally immature, totally broken, and desperately trying to feed their egos with a hot young sex toy. What's to be impressed about? I'm supposed to go gaga because he has a hot trans am with cool fuzzy dice?
> 
> Emotionally mature, sane, non-broken guys who have their sh1t together and are worthy of admiration and lots of compliments tend to go for people they can actually relate to, even if the relationship itself is casual. This usually involves someone age-appropriate and with similar values and outlook.


Although mostly true, I think this is something older women like to tell themselves so they don't feel so bad about hot younger women.

Men tell themselves similar things about men with more looks / money and how women shouldn't go out with them for whatever reason.


----------



## Ikaika

MrsHolland said:


> My guess is that you are the exception to the rule >




Possibly not, when we men hit 50, we go down hill. I'm just thankful my wife has bad eyesight. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

My gosh, such defeatism in this thread.


----------



## wild jade

anonmd said:


> I think the reasonable age gap gets larger as you get older.
> 
> I also think the changing workplace (changed) and economics makes the biggest difference early on. Women on average are looking for a bit of economic security pre-childbirth. As more and more jobs require a college degree it takes longer and longer for men to get even slightly established economically. If a women less than 30 is dating with purpose to settle down there aren't that many guys under 25 or even 30 that any sort of economic stability, Prospects for the future maybe but not current stability. She is going to tend towards a few years older. Which is not to say she is out to marry a "rich guy", just practical.
> 
> FWIW, my mother was 3 years older than my father. Seems to contradict my point but not really, he had one of those good well paying physical labor union jobs that a GED was good enough for after a couple years in the army. Things have changed on average . I was 26 or 27 by the time I finished my work while you school 1/2 time degree.



Economic stability is becoming a thing of the past, I'm afraid.


----------



## wild jade

WorkingOnMe said:


> The accepted norm is 1/2 your age plus 8.


Norm? 

So every 50 year old man is with a 33 year old woman?

A 20 year old with an 18 year old seems pretty normal. But the older you get the less that holds.

For the most part older folks don't hold much appeal with the younger set.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> Although mostly true, I think this is something older women like to tell themselves so they don't feel so bad about hot younger women.
> 
> Men tell themselves similar things about men with more looks / money and how women shouldn't go out with them for whatever reason.


It's funny that you think that older women are automatically jealous of younger ones. Why? I honestly have zero desire to back to my youth, and much prefer myself as I am now.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> My gosh, such defeatism in this thread.


Give it a decade


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> My gosh, such defeatism in this thread.


What amazes me is the seeming assumption that only young people are attractive. And that all one needs is youth to be attractive.

I don't think either are true.


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> Norm?
> 
> 
> 
> So every 50 year old man is with a 33 year old woman?
> 
> 
> 
> A 20 year old with an 18 year old seems pretty normal. But the older you get the less that holds.
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part older folks don't hold much appeal with the younger set.




Nope, if anything happen to my wife (knock on wood), my criteria for whether to date a woman - I would start mentioning a scene from Gilligan's Island and she would have to finish it. A killer body and youthful looks cannot replace being able to relate to someone with similar experiences. At 55, I would have no interest in 30 something. I work with and workout (gym) with 20 and 30 years olds. And, while the energy is great to be around, beyond the professional and gym stuff, I just don't have much in common. Eighty percent of them are tattooed - I guess trying to look unique, but they all look same to me. I'm the one who stands out (without any body art). 

So after sex, you have to talk, you have to have a real relationship. Anyway, I typically think of sex happening well before the act, this involves communication. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika

john117 said:


> Give it a decade




All too true. I'm comfortable with my 55 year old self, but I'm not trying to be 30 either. That of course does not imply I let myself go (I eat right and exercise) it just means I'm realistic. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> men and women tend to value different attributes.
> 
> this has a natural effect on what age groups are perceived as most attractive (in general).
> 
> for example, men tend to value more highly outward signs of fertility
> 
> women tend to value evidence of physical/social dominance
> 
> it's unlikely that a very young man will seem physically/socially dominant compared to slightly older men.
> 
> there are exceptions (pop stars, actors, pro athletes) and these guys are undeniably at the top of the heap.
> 
> for most men though, they reach peak attractiveness a bit older than women due to the fact that it takes time to build this out.
> 
> it's not just about money-- even physical stuff generally reflects this. Peak testosterone production tends to occur in mid 30s. top weightlifters and bodybuilders tend to be in this age range too. Men who stay in shape in their 30s tend to look more "manly" than guys in their 20s.
> 
> by contrast, women look most "fertile" when younger. you can fight this and say it's not fair, but it's just reality. it's not really specific to any particular culture.
> 
> this does not mean that there are not attractive older women. these are just generalities at why there are general age differences in general levels of attractiveness.
> 
> the average woman will the most options in her 20s whereas the average man will have the most options in his 30s.
> 
> the average man will NEVER have as many options as the average woman though.
> 
> women are generally more selective.


I dunno. I was never particularly attracted to teenage boys, even when I was a teenager, but it had absolutely nothing to do with their dominance, money or social status, and everything to do with their looks. Teenage boys tend to be gawky, awkward, and very young looking. Add to that they the fact that they mature more slowly than the average girl, and all of a sudden, you can see why a teenage boy might have a harder time finding a girlfriend. 

As for fertility, I can pretty much assure you that procreation was the absolute last thing on the minds of most guys when they are chasing girls. Indeed, they are working very very hard to avoid it. What they are chasing are the sexual ideals they have been taunted with all their lives in the media and porn.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

wild jade said:


> Norm?
> 
> 
> 
> So every 50 year old man is with a 33 year old woman?
> 
> 
> 
> A 20 year old with an 18 year old seems pretty normal. But the older you get the less that holds.
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part older folks don't hold much appeal with the younger set.




I used the term norm referring to the limit of age distance. Not the average. Is there a reason you're being obtuse?


----------



## badsanta

Catherine602 said:


> Re men's attraction to younger women, part of the attraction is the that young women are not so jaded that they can't admire men. As men and women age they collect disappointments and lose hope and faith in life at times. Healing fixes that.
> 
> It's nice to have someone look up to us and admire who we are. Men like the way they feel with young women and of course looking good does not hurt.
> 
> Women of any age who retain faith and hope despite disappointments are attractive too. I've seen it with my older aunts.
> 
> They are weight appropriate, active, funny as hell and attractive. They are in loving marriages to men they met in their fifties. They like men and look up to their husbands even though they divorced cheating first husbands.



My wife has been jaded by the realities of life and lost hope of all her youthful ambitions. I do not see this as a character flaw but more as the process of becoming a mature adult. She continues to persevere and tries to make the best of often bleak situations. For this reason I love her and see that the strength of her personality is strong enough to overcome the endless heaping pile of shît that life can dump all over you.

For this exact same reason I now find younger women unjaded by life to be annoying and immature which makes them extremely unattractive even if they have the body of a perfect ten. 

I'd much rather look into my partners eyes and know we both see the wolves right at the door. With that look in our eyes we smile because we know how to team up and somehow train them into becoming sled dogs!










Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> Nope, if anything happen to my wife (knock on wood), my criteria for whether to date a woman - I would start mentioning a scene from Gilligan's Island and she would have to finish it. A killer body and youthful looks cannot replace being able to relate to someone with similar experiences. At 55, I would have no interest in 30 something. I work with and workout (gym) with 20 and 30 years olds. And, while the energy is great to be around, beyond the professional and gym stuff, I just don't have much in common. Eighty percent of them are tattooed - I guess trying to look unique, but they all look same to me. I'm the one who stands out (without any body art).
> 
> So after sex, you have to talk, you have to have a real relationship. Anyway, I typically think of sex happening well before the act, this involves communication.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, exactly! This is what I mean. If you look around at couples, most people pick someone that they share values, outlook, life experience with. If all you want is a sex toy, or if you're broken in some way and can't handle relating with real people, then pure superficial looks might be enough for you. But typically people want someone they can actually connect with -- even when it's just FWB or a casual relationship.


----------



## wild jade

WorkingOnMe said:


> I used the term norm referring to the limit of age distance. Not the average. Is there a reason you're being obtuse?


I'm sorry, I didn't read your mind. Is there a reason you're trying to put me down?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Give it a decade


Oh, I expect to be wrinkled by then, no doubt. I am sure Dug will not care.

I find him even more endearing as he ages. He will be 50 next year, and I think he looks great. I love the salt and pepper hair, the creases starting on his face, the way he lowers his glasses to be able to read. I really like that last one. Always makes me smile and want to hug him.

But the sexiest thing about Dug, and always has been, is his ability to not take my emotions personally. He embodies my signature. And that seals my attraction.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> It's funny that you think that older women are automatically jealous of younger ones. Why? I honestly have zero desire to back to my youth, and much prefer myself as I am now.


Totally agree. Life experience is hard won.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Totally agree. Life experience is hard won.


It is not just life experience. When I was younger I had so many more insecurities, so many more body image issues, so many negative views that made life a whole lot more difficult to enjoy. Add to that I had a lot less money, material comfort, career success, and all sorts of other things that I've accomplished in those years.

All in all I'm way better off than I ever have been before, and you couldn't pay me to go back.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> It is not just life experience. When I was younger I had so many more insecurities, so many more body image issues, so many negative views that made life a whole lot more difficult to enjoy. Add to that I had a lot less money, material comfort, career success, and all sorts of other things that I've accomplished in those years.
> 
> All in all I'm way better off than I ever have been before, and you couldn't pay me to go back.


Totally agree.


----------



## Ikaika

Going back to the OP, my wife has not withheld anything from me. Granted I'm a bit more adventurous (my past was far more adventurous) than her. But, we talk about sex and what we are comfortable doing together. This does take a level of maturity, but I thin it starts with some mature conversations. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Catherine602

@badsanta I think it's different in a loving LTR. I love my husband more deeply now than I ever did in the honeymoon period. 

There is something about living through bad times together in LTR that is binding for some people. I see how my husband copes and manages to power through with the same love of people and life. 

I also see his faults that I did not know he had and love him even more. I am not sure why but maybe it's that he trusted me with his secrets and no one else, as far as I know. 

In a dating situation, it is difficult to meet someone who distrust your gender or is pessimistic about life and feel good with them. 

The relationship has little chance of getting off the ground because the attractive parts of them are masked.


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Economic stability is becoming a thing of the past, I'm afraid.


It's not as easy as it used to be but there are plenty of places to be secure.

To many people go stupid places with their degree. In the tech world and the medical world things are very good. Especially the medical field.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> It's funny that you think that older women are automatically jealous of younger ones. Why? I honestly have zero desire to back to my youth, and much prefer myself as I am now.


To the degree that younger women are generally more attractive than older women. No so much everything else.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> As for fertility, I can pretty much assure you that procreation was the absolute last thing on the minds of most guys when they are chasing girls. Indeed, they are working very very hard to avoid it. What they are chasing are the sexual ideals they have been taunted with all their lives in the media and porn.


We're talking primal desires here. From a time when the need was to pass on one's genes. 

This is far from the only situation where our DNA and subconscious have failed to adapt to modern conditions quickly enough.


----------



## Catherine602

BTW it's not only men. Many women feel the same way but they hide it because it is frowned upon in this culture. 

It may be because men are just as jealous and insecure about female primal desires as women. Men are not as careful of our feeling as we are of theirs. 

That is cultural too because historically men have not had to be sensitive to the feelings of women. 

In these days, it can backfire when they are in relationships and need their partner to care about how they feel and cater to their needs.

Women may feel it's an option since they don't enjoy the same solicitousness. I am referring to men as a group in pop culture, not individuals.


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> As for fertility, I can pretty much assure you that procreation was the absolute last thing on the minds of most guys when they are chasing girls. Indeed, they are working very very hard to avoid it. What they are chasing are the sexual ideals they have been taunted with all their lives in the media and porn.


you've got the cart before the horse.

_why _does "the media" portray certain archetypes as attractive?

could it be because their audience _already _ finds those archetypes attractive?

isn't it much more direct to simply give people what they already want than to try to create a new desire?

regarding fertility, obviously boys aren't trying to get girls pregnant . they just want girls who are hot. but hot is synonymous with fertile. if you look at the attributes that boys/men find hot, it is easy to see.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> you've got the cart before the horse.
> 
> _why _does "the media" portray certain archetypes as attractive?
> 
> could it be because their audience _already _ finds those archetypes attractive?
> 
> isn't it much more direct to simply give people what they already want than to try to create a new desire?
> 
> regarding fertility, obviously boys aren't trying to get girls pregnant . they just want girls who are hot. but hot is synonymous with fertile. if you look at the attributes that boys/men find hot, it is easy to see.


The media portrays what's fashionable, and what's fashionable changes over time. So I think it works both ways. The media is trying to give people what they want, but it is also shaping what they want. Media, after all, has a very vested interest in selling not just a product but a lifestyle and values. They deliberately try to create desires in people and foster dissatisfaction and want so that we'll all buy more products. And boy are they good at this!

Reality is that this notion of outward signs of fertility is pretty much bs. Large breasts are no indication of fertility -- nor are they universally considered attractive. Wide hips do, I understand, facilitate childbirth somewhat, but again are actually not at all connected to fertility. At all. 

Youth perhaps is connected to fertility, but even then, it's a pretty wide range of a couple of decades.

The fertile is attractive thing is made up. It's really bright plumage and colours like the birds. Aesthetics, not fertility.


----------



## MrsHolland

Buddy400 said:


> Although mostly true, I think this is something older women like to tell themselves so they don't feel so bad about hot younger women.
> 
> Men tell themselves similar things about men with more looks / money and how women shouldn't go out with them for whatever reason.


I don't feel bad about younger women, if I could be any age I would go back to 40, not 30. 40 for me was wonderful.
But then again both men and women struggle with getting older, not bc of jealousy but because it can be quite confronting, you have gone past that point in your life where you never thought you would get old and bam there you are.

I genuinely think many men are sold and foolishly believe the line that they can get a much younger woman. It is quite a harmful way of thinking because the reality is that most men at 50 cannot get the attention of a 30 year old woman, how sad to not have a grasp on your reality. I really cannot recall the last time I saw a couple with a 20 year age gap, this is some lie men tell themselves so that they don't feel bad about their own aging.

I'm all for looking, MrH can knock himself out (I am very discreet with my perving) but if at the same time he did not value who I am, what I have to offer and how sexy and good I look for my age then he would be out the door.

If people are looking for validation from those outside their own age group IMHO there are some issues there they need to deal with, lack of self esteem especially.


----------



## Catherine602

@MrsHolland I think it is also a control issue in some relationships. The implied message is that, no matter how old or unattractive a man is, he can easily get women much younger and better looking than his wife. 

If that's the case then the old lady better toe the line. It may work with women with low self-esteem or it may also cause problems. It strange that women in situation where they are being judged don't point out their husbands flaws. 

The standard by which women are measured seems unrealistic to me. Some women don't bother to try looking their best and some become shy about the way they look as they age. 

I think it's important in this current cultural environment that men and women in LTR maintain their individuality and avoid becoming overly dependent. 

Women may want to consider carefully before giving up outside work or at lest do so temporarily. All of the women I know and my students have children and continue in their career.


----------



## jld

Catherine602 said:


> @MrsHolland I think it is also a control issue in some relationships. The implied message is that, no matter how old or unattractive a man is, he can easily get women much younger and better looking than his wife.
> 
> If that's the case then the old lady better toe the line. It may work with women with low self-esteem or it may also cause problems. It strange that women in situation where they are being judged don't point out their husbands flaws.
> 
> The standard by which women are measured seems unrealistic to me. Some women don't bother to try looking their best and some become shy about the way they look as they age.
> 
> *I think it's important in this current cultural environment that men and women in LTR maintain their individuality and avoid becoming overly dependent.
> 
> Women may want to consider carefully before giving up outside work or at lest do so temporarily. All of the women I know and my students have children and continue in their career*.


I think financial independence is the main thing. If you can provide for yourself and your children, it makes it easier to leave.


----------



## *Deidre*

It would be awesome to stay looking young forever, but have the wisdom of both of my grandmothers, at the same time.


----------



## Catherine602

@jld Not only easier to leave but a clear and present option to leave if there is no respect and appreciation. 

We appreciate more what we can lose, not what we are sure we will never lose.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> What amazes me is the seeming assumption that only young people are attractive. And that all one needs is youth to be attractive.
> 
> I don't think either are true.


Of course what is attractive is subjective, but I would say that purely on physical attributes alone, there are more attractive females 10 yrs younger than me than there are 10 yrs older than me. I think this could also apply for men as well.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MrsHolland said:


> I genuinely think many men are sold and foolishly believe the line that they can get a much younger woman. It is quite a harmful way of thinking because the reality is that most men at 50 cannot get the attention of a 30 year old woman, how sad to not have a grasp on your reality.


I have a very firm grasp on my reality. Hence the decision to stay with H2. And given my view on whether other women are likely to find me attractive, you don't have to wonder why H2 doesn't either. Her protestations to the contrary very very notwithstanding.


----------



## anonmd

Catherine602 said:


> The standard by which women are measured seems unrealistic to me. Some women don't bother to try looking their best and some become shy about the way they look as they age.


Very unrealistic. But I'd restate it as 'The standard by which women measure themselves'. 

I'm quite fond of my wife's floppy 50 year old boobs for instance and find it fairly annoying when she criticizes herself. And BTW, 'floppy 50 year old boobs' is a term of endearment adopted to combat frequent claims that they drag on the ground!


----------



## wild jade

anonmd said:


> Very unrealistic. But I'd restate it as 'The standard by which women measure themselves'.
> 
> I'm quite fond of my wife's floppy 50 year old boobs for instance and find it fairly annoying when she criticizes herself. And BTW, 'floppy 50 year old boobs' is a term of endearment adopted to combat frequent claims that they drag on the ground!


Your point would be a wee bit more compelling if this thread wasn't full of men talking about how much better looking young women are, and how older women aren't attractive ....

And flat out shooting down an older woman who suggests she might still have it going on.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wild jade said:


> Your point would be a wee bit more compelling if this thread wasn't full of men talking about how much better looking young women are, and how older women aren't attractive ....
> 
> And flat out shooting down an older woman who suggests she might still have it going on.


My husband recently cracked me up. Yah I guess younger women are good looking. Better looking that you? Well I guess? But then they open their mouths and ruin it as if they know ANYTHING about ANYTHING.


----------



## jld

My husband makes me feel like I am the best thing that could have ever happened to him. I have doubts about the marriage sometimes, but he never does. 

I don't understand so much focus on looks. This is lifetime marriage we are talking about, not dating or an affair. Of course we are going to age, get floppy or loose or wrinkly or whatever. So what?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> My husband makes me feel like I am the best thing that could have ever happened to him. I have doubts about the marriage sometimes, but he never does.
> 
> I don't understand so much focus on looks. This is lifetime marriage we are talking about, not dating or an affair. Of course we are going to age, get floppy or loose or wrinkly or whatever. So what?


My husband touches my crows feet and comments on how many smiles he got to share to put them there.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> Your point would be a wee bit more compelling if this thread wasn't full of men talking about how much better looking young women are, and how older women aren't attractive ....
> 
> And flat out shooting down an older woman who suggests she might still have it going on.


We're talking about physical attractiveness in general.

The average 20 year old is more physically attractive than the average 50 year old. That's why you didn't see many 50 year olds in the Playboy centerfold.

Denying this seems akin to saying that it doesn't matter how much offensive linemen weigh or how tall NBA players are. I don't see the purpose in denying the obvious.

This doesn't mean that I would have any interest in dating a 20 year old. A 50 year old would be more attractive to me. Also, it would save me being laughed at.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> My husband touches my crows feet and comments on how many smiles he got to share to put them there.


That's the spirit!


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> @MrsHolland I think it is also a control issue in some relationships. The implied message is that, no matter how old or unattractive a man is, he can easily get women much younger and better looking than his wife.
> 
> If that's the case then the old lady better toe the line. It may work with women with low self-esteem or it may also cause problems. It strange that women in situation where they are being judged don't point out their husbands flaws.
> 
> The standard by which women are measured seems unrealistic to me. Some women don't bother to try looking their best and some become shy about the way they look as they age.
> 
> I think it's important in this current cultural environment that men and women in LTR maintain their individuality and avoid becoming overly dependent.
> 
> Women may want to consider carefully before giving up outside work or at lest do so temporarily. All of the women I know and my students have children and continue in their career.


I believe this is overthinking the issue.

I think there is some truth to women's peak "sex rank" being in their 20's and men's in their 30's for reasons Anon1111 specified.

There are real world examples of older, rich unattractive men with younger, hot women and there are probably more women willing to overlook appearance for other attributes than there are men.

But, the overwhelming percentage of the time, hot young women have zero interest in significantly older men. To the degree some men think otherwise, they're lying to themselves. 

To the degree it might be used by men to "up their sex rank" with their wife, women would do the same with other attributes.


----------



## Anon1111

there's a lot of psycho analysis going on about why men are attracted to young women

it's just not very complicated

older men are attracted to young women for the same reason young men are attracted to young women. and for the same reason old women are attracted to young women (see women's magazines, fashion ads, etc, etc).

it's because they are hot.

if an older woman is hot, then men will be attracted to her too. they are plenty of examples.

hotness is the primary factor, not age.

Age is simply correlated with hotness. They are not equal.

there are far more hot young women (and men too) because you don't have to try so hard to be hot when you're young. it just happens.

so if you are interested in having a strong physical attraction to your mate, you go where the supply is.

men tend to value physical looks very highly, so the results are obvious.

it's not immature or insane or anything. it's just the way it is, just how women are the way they are.


----------



## jld

I think it is risky to base a marriage on "hotness."

I am telling my boys to _Look beyond the packaging!_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I believe this is overthinking the issue.
> 
> I think there is some truth to women's peak "sex rank" being in their 20's and men's in their 30's for reasons Anon1111 specified.
> 
> There are real world examples of older, rich unattractive men with younger, hot women and there are probably more women willing to overlook appearance for other attributes than there are men.
> 
> But, the overwhelming percentage of the time, hot young women have zero interest in significantly older men. To the degree some men think otherwise, they're lying to themselves.
> 
> To the degree it might be used by men to "up their sex rank" with their wife, women would do the same with other attributes.


Anyone who deals in "sex rank" in marriage needs to grow up.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> I think it is risky to base a marriage on "hotness."
> 
> I am telling my boys to _Look beyond the packaging!_


I don't believe that people really calculate who they're attracted to.

it just happens. even for the people (mostly women) who have checklists of criteria.

if you are attracted to someone, they will magically check all of your boxes, or you will decide that the boxes don't really matter.

the artifice is in the idea that attraction is supposed to last for a lifetime.

it can happen, but I don't believe we are built for that.

the expectation that we are causes a lot of unnecessary heartache.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Anyone who deals in "sex rank" in marriage needs to grow up.


Agreed


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I don't believe that people really calculate who they're attracted to.
> 
> it just happens. even for the people (mostly women) who have checklists of criteria.
> 
> if you are attracted to someone, they will magically check all of your boxes, or you will decide that the boxes don't really matter.
> 
> the artifice is in the idea that attraction is supposed to last for a lifetime.
> 
> it can happen, but I don't believe we are built for that.
> 
> the expectation that we are causes a lot of unnecessary heartache.


I am certainly attracted to Dug, but I did not marry him based on just that. Shoot, I have been attracted to thousands of men over the course of my life. I only married one.

By the way, is your marriage still sexless, Anon? Are you going to post an update?


----------



## Ikaika

I don't know about any of you but my wife is a 53 year old hottie. Yes, she brings a whole lot more to our marriage, but when the evening comes and the kitchen is clean and boys retreat to their bedroom and we close our doors, she is a hottie and she can get my motor running in 6th gear. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Ikaika said:


> I don't know about any of you but my wife is a 53 year old hottie. Yes, she brings a whole lot more to our marriage, but when the evening comes and the kitchen is clean and boys retreat to their bedroom and we close our doors, she is a hottie and she can get my motor running in 6th gear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This sounds very normal and healthy to me.


----------



## anonmd

wild jade said:


> Your point would be a wee bit more compelling if this thread wasn't full of men talking about how much better looking young women are, and how older women aren't attractive ....
> 
> And flat out shooting down an older woman who suggests she might still have it going on.


General warning to women, I can be talked out of it. Spend 10 or 15 years telling how your boobs droop to you waist, your face is haggard without the makeup you insist on putting on before you leave the house etc., and one day I might agree . 

A positive outlook on life goes a long way


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> I am certainly attracted to Dug, but I did not marry him based on just that. Shoot, I have been attracted to thousands of men over the course of my life. I only married one.
> 
> By the way, is your marriage still sexless, Anon? Are you going to post an update?


that's good. I felt the same way about A2. there were other girls who were hotter.

no change in frequency. 

it's OK though. at this point I don't really stress about it too much.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> General warning to women, I can be talked out of it. Spend 10 or 15 years telling how your boobs droop to you waist, your face is haggard without the makeup you insist on putting on before you leave the house etc., and one day I might agree .
> 
> A positive outlook on life goes a long way


Those physical things don't affect your attraction to her, though, do they? Isn't it deeper than those superficialities?


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> that's good. I felt the same way about A2. there were other girls who were hotter.
> 
> no change in frequency.
> 
> it's OK though. at this point I don't really stress about it too much.


Attraction is certainly necessary in marriage. I just don't think it is the only necessity.

I am sorry to hear things are not better, Anon, but happy to hear you two are still together. Your boys surely appreciate that.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Those physical things don't affect your attraction to her, though, do they? Isn't it deeper than those superficialities?


Correct, they do not matter to me now but keep trying to convince me and you just might succeed. 

I view it as pushing on the main circuit breaker to my "I don't give a damn-o-meter" She's managed to flip it once or twice in the past, the lifetime supply of resets is limited so be careful .


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Correct, they do not matter to me now but keep trying to convince me and you just might succeed.
> 
> I view it as pushing on the main circuit breaker to my "I don't give a damn-o-meter" She's managed to flip it once or twice in the past, the lifetime supply of resets is limited so be careful .


Oh, so you are not solid on your attraction. There is some fragility.


----------



## *Deidre*

To the older married guys here - do you think that your wives don't check out hot young guys? Hmmm...


----------



## Anon1111

*Deidre* said:


> To the older married guys here - do you think that your wives don't check out hot young guys? Hmmm...


of course they do. why wouldn't they?

that's normal. 

although I believe on the whole that the type of men women generally find most attractive skews slightly older than vice versa


----------



## EllisRedding

I think as some have stated already, and I don't think anyone here is saying older people are unattractive, the younger you are the more of an advantage you have when it comes to the physical attributes you typically see associated with being attractive (hair, skin, body composition, etc...). This isn't gender specific in any way. Now obviously, you shouldn't base picking your SO purely on their physical looks, but it doesn't mean you should disregard this altogether as physical attraction is still an important component in a relationship. I could meet the most wonderful person on the "inside" but if the physical attraction isn't there then things aren't going anywhere. Likewise, I could meet someone I am physically attracted to, but then they open their mouth and that pretty much kills any chance.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> I think as some have stated already, and I don't think anyone here is saying older people are unattractive, the younger you are the more of an advantage you have when it comes to the physical attributes you typically see associated with being attractive (hair, skin, body composition, etc...). This isn't gender specific in any way. Now obviously, you shouldn't base picking your SO purely on their physical looks, but it doesn't mean you should disregard this altogether as physical attraction is still an important component in a relationship. I could meet the most wonderful person on the "inside" but if the physical attraction isn't there then things aren't going anywhere. Likewise, I could meet someone I am physically attracted to, but then they open their mouth and that pretty much kills any chance.


Yea...I think physical attraction is very important - but that's not what keeps a relationship going. It seems like as I go through the thread, some men are under this impression that women aren't all that visual, and trust me, we like a guy who works out, and looks good, too. Just feel bad for some wives who are married to men who are basically lusting after other women besides them.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Yea...I think physical attraction is very important - but that's not what keeps a relationship going. It seems like as I go through the thread, some men are under this impression that women aren't all that visual, and trust me, we like a guy who works out, and looks good, too. Just feel bad for some wives who are married to men who are basically lusting after other women besides them.


Agreed, and likewise I have no doubt there are women who are lusting after men who aren't their SOs. A lot of this is all fantasy or "grass is greener on the other side". Heck, my BILs W posts all the time on FB pics of what she considers young studs lol.

Let's be honest as well, you have been gazing at my avatar for the last 5 minutes, lust away! 

The interesting thing about this, I would think many people would have a "breaking point" when it comes to physical attractiveness. So let's say you have the most awesome SO, your physical and emotional attraction is strong. Over time though they decide to let themselves go physically (sit on the sofa all day eating Bon Bons). There has to be a point where no matter who they are on the inside, by letting themselves go you have lost all physical attraction towards them (i am not talking the normal aging). I would think this would in fact take a toll on the relationship. 

I just feel nowadays in the PC world we live in you are deemed "shallow" or "selfish" if you even bring up the topic of physical attractiveness, even though for many it is clearly part of what brings you closer to a SO


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Oh, so you are not solid on your attraction. There is some fragility.


The attraction is solid. It is within her power to short circuit that. 

Once upon a time, long, long ago, I was in a different relationship. Pre-marriage of course. Over the course of a few years, 3?, 4.something maybe? We would have occasional disagreements. On 2 or 3 occasions she would get upset, not tell me why (and I'd be standing there clueless) and walk out. She had some thing in her mind about "set the bird free, if it loves you it'll fly back". 

Well, I flew back a couple times. The third I moved on. Never gave it another thought is too strong but not that far off. Maybe I'm a psychopath but I don't think so . She was quite crushed by the whole thing for a fair while afterwards. 

She flipped the switch, doesn't mean I wasn't still attracted to her or didn't love her just that the 'I don't give a damn circuit' was now energized and I chose not to reset it.


----------



## anonmd

*Deidre* said:


> To the older married guys here - do you think that your wives don't check out hot young guys? Hmmm...


Of course, the Olympics are popular for a reason.


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> The interesting thing about this, I would think many people would have a "breaking point" when it comes to physical attractiveness. So let's say you have the most awesome SO, your physical and emotional attraction is strong. Over time though they decide to let themselves go physically (sit on the sofa all day eating Bon Bons). There has to be a point where no matter who they are on the inside, by letting themselves go you have lost all physical attraction towards them (i am not talking the normal aging). I would think this would in fact take a toll on the relationship.


the other thing that can happen is that the attraction is not reciprocated.

so over time, you realize that it is wasted energy to focus your gaze on your spouse. it becomes like staring at a poster on the wall.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> The attraction is solid. It is within her power to short circuit that.


To me, that is not solid. As I said, there is some fragility. 

Solid would be her not having that power. And your not losing your attraction over her complaining one too many times.

Jmo.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, and likewise I have no doubt there are women who are lusting after men who aren't their SOs. A lot of this is all fantasy or "grass is greener on the other side". Heck, my BILs W posts all the time on FB pics of what she considers young studs lol.
> 
> Let's be honest as well, you have been gazing at my avatar for the last 5 minutes, lust away!
> 
> The interesting thing about this, I would think many people would have a "breaking point" when it comes to physical attractiveness. So let's say you have the most awesome SO, your physical and emotional attraction is strong. Over time though they decide to let themselves go physically (sit on the sofa all day eating Bon Bons). There has to be a point where no matter who they are on the inside, by letting themselves go you have lost all physical attraction towards them (i am not talking the normal aging). I would think this would in fact take a toll on the relationship.
> 
> I just feel nowadays in the PC world we live in you are deemed "shallow" or "selfish" if you even bring up the topic of physical attractiveness, even though for many it is clearly part of what brings you closer to a SO


Yes, agree! When I get married some day, I hope my future husband and I don't 'let ourselves go.'


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> We're talking about physical attractiveness in general.
> 
> The average 20 year old is more physically attractive than the average 50 year old. That's why you didn't see many 50 year olds in the Playboy centerfold.
> 
> Denying this seems akin to saying that it doesn't matter how much offensive linemen weigh or how tall NBA players are. I don't see the purpose in denying the obvious.
> 
> This doesn't mean that I would have any interest in dating a 20 year old. A 50 year old would be more attractive to me. Also, it would save me being laughed at.


So let me get this straight. 20 year olds are much more attractive, but a 50 year old would be more attractive to you.

But we must still be sure to emphasize just how much more attractive 20-year olds are. Because they are in Playboy.

:scratchhead:


Okay. Got it.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Yes, agree! When I get married some day, I hope my future husband and I don't 'let ourselves go.'


The way I view it, why wouldn't you want to look good for your SO??? To me it is similar to the concept that even after marriage you should continue to date your spouse. I am sure most everyone does their best at the beginning of the relationship to look their best, why should this stop after some years have passed? 

A bigger issue on top of this are undoubtedly the health issues that could now arise from letting yourself go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> To me, that is not solid. As I said, there is some fragility.
> 
> Solid would be her not having that power. And your not losing your attraction over her complaining one too many times.
> 
> Jmo.


Not surprising from you. Must be a hard thought to accept given your tag line. That there might be some limit to standing unreacting to your free flowing emotional storms.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, and likewise I have no doubt there are women who are lusting after men who aren't their SOs. A lot of this is all fantasy or "grass is greener on the other side". Heck, my BILs W posts all the time on FB pics of what she considers young studs lol.
> 
> Let's be honest as well, you have been gazing at my avatar for the last 5 minutes, lust away!
> 
> The interesting thing about this, I would think many people would have a "breaking point" when it comes to physical attractiveness. So let's say you have the most awesome SO, your physical and emotional attraction is strong. Over time though they decide to let themselves go physically (sit on the sofa all day eating Bon Bons). There has to be a point where no matter who they are on the inside, by letting themselves go you have lost all physical attraction towards them (i am not talking the normal aging). I would think this would in fact take a toll on the relationship.
> 
> I just feel nowadays in the PC world we live in you are deemed "shallow" or "selfish" if you even bring up the topic of physical attractiveness, even though for many it is clearly part of what brings you closer to a SO


Definitely some truth there. It's very difficult to watch your spouse get fatter and unhealthier and not ever want to do anything about it.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Not surprising from you. Must be a hard thought to accept given your tag line. That there might be some limit to standing unreacting to your free flowing emotional storms.


Like I said, _jmo._


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> The way I view it, why wouldn't you want to look good for your SO??? To me it is similar to the concept that even after marriage you should continue to date your spouse. I am sure most everyone does their best at the beginning of the relationship to look their best, why should this stop after some years have passed?
> 
> A bigger issue on top of this are undoubtedly the health issues that could now arise from letting yourself go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because not everyone's attraction is dependent on what their spouse looks like?

I doubt anyone wants to look _unattractive._ But if the attraction is consistent, no matter what, it can seem like it really does not matter how one looks.

Agree that there may be health risks involved if weight is an issue, though.


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> The way I view it, why wouldn't you want to look good for your SO??? To me it is similar to the concept that even after marriage you should continue to date your spouse. I am sure most everyone does their best at the beginning of the relationship to look their best, why should this stop after some years have passed?
> 
> A bigger issue on top of this are undoubtedly the health issues that could now arise from letting yourself go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if you're doing it just for the other person, you're probably not really doing it

self motivation is really the only thing that works


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Definitely some truth there. It's very difficult to watch your spouse get fatter and unhealthier and not ever want to do anything about it.


Yeah, that would be depressing. 

If I found myself losing respect for my spouse, I would definitely lose attraction. Is that how you feel, wj?


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> To me, that is not solid. As I said, there is some fragility.
> 
> Solid would be her not having that power. And your not losing your attraction over her complaining one too many times.
> 
> Jmo.


not everything is a power dynamic

some people just don't enjoy being around other people who act certain ways


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> Definitely some truth there. It's very difficult to watch your spouse get fatter and unhealthier and not ever want to do anything about it.


Yes, I actually thought about your post a few days ago about your H when I was writing that. That would be very discouraging, especially knowing of the possible health ramifications that you could be left dealing with.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> not everything is a power dynamic
> 
> some people just don't enjoy being around other people who act certain ways


Like I said, it is _jmo._

And I will leave it at that.


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> if you're doing it just for the other person, you're probably not really doing it
> 
> self motivation is really the only thing that works


Agreed, a combination of both I find is optimal.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Because not everyone's attraction is dependent on what their spouse looks like?
> 
> I doubt anyone wants to look _unattractive._ But if the attraction is consistent, no matter what, it can seem like it really does not matter how one looks.
> 
> Agree that there may be health risks involved if weight is an issue, though.


I never said that attraction alone is dependent on looks, so not sure where you are getting that from?


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> not everything is a power dynamic
> 
> some people just don't enjoy being around other people who act certain ways


Agreed, if someone is constantly whining, complaining, etc... the attraction goes way down completely.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> I never said that attraction alone is dependent on looks, so not sure where you are getting that from?


Attraction alone? What else depends on looks?

Or are you talking about weight concerns?


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Yeah, that would be depressing.
> 
> If I found myself losing respect for my spouse, I would definitely lose attraction. Is that how you feel, wj?


I'm pretty resilient and can look past a lot. Mostly I just wish he cared more, particularly about his health. He could be better off than he is, but he's, well, not sure what the word is. Basically he doesn't actually believe anything he does will make a difference.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> I'm pretty resilient and can look past a lot. Mostly I just wish he cared more, particularly about his health. He could be better off than he is, but he's, well, not sure what the word is. Basically *he doesn't actually believe anything he does will make a difference.*


Meaning he doesn't think he can actually lose weight? Weight is the issue, no?


----------



## Steve1000

Ikaika said:


> I work with and workout (gym) with 20 and 30 years olds.


Since you workout regularly, why do you occasionally say that your body is quickly diminishing at age 55?


----------



## Ikaika

Steve1000 said:


> Since you workout regularly, why do you occasionally say that your body is quickly diminishing at age 55?




I don't know that quick would be the best adjective. But I feel all the aches and pains, recovery is tough and injuries just take longer than I remember. It does not stop me, but does make me realize my age ever more. 

However, the upside to maintaining fitness (especially cardio), no pills needed to raise my flag pole. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve1000

Anon1111 said:


> if you are attracted to someone, they will magically check all of your boxes, or you will decide that the boxes don't really matter.


Very wise words. When single and very much attracted to someone, logical decision making deserts us.


----------



## Steve1000

Ikaika said:


> I don't know that quick would be the best adjective. But I feel all the aches and pains, recovery is tough and injuries just take longer than I remember. It does not stop me, but does make me realize my age ever more.
> 
> However, the upside to maintaining fitness (especially cardio), no pills needed to raise my flag pole.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ok, sounds like you're completely fine.  I'm 8 years younger than you and I can occasionally still dunk a basketball, but yea, recovery takes longer. That's why many professional athletes have to retire.


----------



## Ikaika

Steve1000 said:


> Ok, sounds like you're completely fine.  I'm 8 years younger than you and I can occasionally still dunk a basketball, but yea, recovery takes longer. That's why many professional athletes have to retire.




I plan on working out until I'm no longer ambulatory, after which I'd be ready to check out. I do first and foremost for me, but I think my wife enjoys the benefits as well. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsHolland

Ikaika said:


> I plan on working out until I'm no longer ambulatory, after which I'd be ready to check out. I do first and foremost for me, but I think my wife enjoys the benefits as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


OT but

I have had a few injuries over time, cycling accidents, hit by a car etc and have low level aches and pains at times. I go to the gym about 4 times a week and have recently started doing Hypoxi (not sure if it is the same name in the US) was first developed for injury recovery (lower body only) but is also used for weight lose, skin toning. I find it does help with recovery of long term low level injuries.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> The way I view it, why wouldn't you want to look good for your SO??? To me it is similar to the concept that even after marriage you should continue to date your spouse. I am sure most everyone does their best at the beginning of the relationship to look their best, why should this stop after some years have passed?
> 
> A bigger issue on top of this are undoubtedly the health issues that could now arise from letting yourself go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree. It should be a lifestyle thing. What's interesting is many people who are out of shape, and then get divorced...will work hard to get their body back if they find themselves back to dating. One of my mom's friends did just this...she gained a lot of weight in her marriage, her husband had an affair, and then they divorced - she lost a lot of weight, and now looks great. Not sure why she gained weight in her marriage, but it sends a message that her husband wasn't worth the effort, but random strangers who she is trying to 'impress' are....


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Attraction alone? What else depends on looks?
> 
> Or are you talking about weight concerns?


Attraction can be based on physical characteristics, personality traits, etc... One example, I am a very positive person, so someone who is very negative is not attractive to me.

In terms of looks, that is on the physical side of course. As you said yourself in your post, if attraction is _consistent_. What I was talking about is where there is a big shift in ones looks (so not consistent) that alter how attractive they may be to their SO (once again, not talking about your normal aging). Weight is probably the #1 issue, and not taking into account health, but many people will have some sort of breaking point where it is too much. If my W put on 80lbs then yes, my physical attraction to her would diminish greatly.


----------



## MrsHolland

*Deidre* said:


> Agree. It should be a lifestyle thing. What's interesting is many people who are out of shape, and then get divorced...will work hard to get their body back if they find themselves back to dating. One of my mom's friends did just this...she gained a lot of weight in her marriage, her husband had an affair, and then they divorced - she lost a lot of weight, and now looks great. Not sure why she gained weight in her marriage, *but it sends a message that her husband wasn't worth the effort, but random strangers who she is trying to 'impress' are..*..


Not necessarily true. From personal experience a bad marriage can greatly impact your health, outlook on life etc. Most people I know (including myself) get a new found lust for life post divorce, freedom from a bad relationship can do that to people, they then put their energy into themselves and consequently get back into great shape, take more care of their appearance.

Who know, this woman might have been suffering in a bad marriage for some time, it ended so she took control of her own life and health and got it together again.

No one knows what really happens in someone elses life/marriage.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Agree. It should be a lifestyle thing. What's interesting is many people who are out of shape, and then get divorced...will work hard to get their body back if they find themselves back to dating. One of my mom's friends did just this...she gained a lot of weight in her marriage, her husband had an affair, and then they divorced - she lost a lot of weight, and now looks great. Not sure why she gained weight in her marriage, but it sends a message that her husband wasn't worth the effort, but random strangers who she is trying to 'impress' are....


Spot on, always wondered the same as you.


----------



## *Deidre*

MrsHolland said:


> Not necessarily true. From personal experience a bad marriage can greatly impact your health, outlook on life etc. Most people I know (including myself) get a new found lust for life post divorce, freedom from a bad relationship can do that to people, they then put their energy into themselves and consequently get back into great shape, take more care of their appearance.
> 
> Who know, this woman might have been suffering in a bad marriage for some time, it ended so she took control of her own life and health and got it together again.
> 
> No one knows what really happens in someone elses life/marriage.


This is true, no one knows everything going on behind closed doors in a marriage. Her ex husband is a total jerk, from what my mom says, but so sad that she begged him to stay with her for a long time, was willing to forgive him for cheating, etc. I hope she finds a good man this time.


----------



## EllisRedding

Steve1000 said:


> Ok, sounds like you're completely fine.  I'm 8 years younger than you and I can occasionally still dunk a basketball, but yea, recovery takes longer. That's why many professional athletes have to retire.


I am starting to incorporate more recovery movements into my daily training (Pillar and Movement prep) along with Tabata at the end of every training session.


----------



## Ikaika

EllisRedding said:


> I am starting to incorporate more recovery movements into my daily training (Pillar and Movement prep) along with Tabata at the end of every training session.




Have you ever done battle ropes? If not, that is a routine for which recovery is a must. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika

MrsHolland said:


> Not necessarily true. From personal experience a bad marriage can greatly impact your health, outlook on life etc. Most people I know (including myself) get a new found lust for life post divorce, freedom from a bad relationship can do that to people, they then put their energy into themselves and consequently get back into great shape, take more care of their appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> Who know, this woman might have been suffering in a bad marriage for some time, it ended so she took control of her own life and health and got it together again.
> 
> 
> 
> No one knows what really happens in someone elses life/marriage.




On the other hand to keep up with my wife (I don't believe I need to go into details) I need to stay in shape. "That" too can be a full body workout? :grin2:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding

Ikaika said:


> Have you ever done battle ropes? If not, that is a routine for which recovery is a must.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, I do them as part of Tabata. My last few tabata sessions I have done on the Elliptical at the gym. When I do tabata at home I use my battling ropes and medicine ball (also have a prowler but too lazy right now to move everything around in my garage so I could get to it lol).


----------



## Ikaika

EllisRedding said:


> Yes, I do them as part of Tabata. My last few tabata sessions I have done on the Elliptical at the gym. When I do tabata at home I use my battling ropes and medicine ball (also have a prowler but too lazy right now to move everything around in my garage so I could get to it lol).




I started with the 30' battle ropes and have since graduated to the standard 50'... My god is all I can say. And the group I workout with (one guy an army ranger, 26 years old) will not let you get away with not moving the rope (on each routine) to the anchor point. 

I keep telling him, the army ranger, my age. He smiles and says "your not dead yet are you?"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding

Ikaika said:


> I started with the 30' battle ropes and have since graduated to the standard 50'... My god is all I can say. And the group I workout with (one guy an army ranger, 26 years old) will not let you get away with not moving the rope (on each routine) to the anchor point.
> 
> I keep telling him, the army ranger, my age. He smiles and says "your not dead yet are you?"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Haha, thats great.

I need to be careful and not overdo battling ropes b/c much of my training revolves around powerlifting, so too much battling ropes would actually hurt my recovery. That is why Tabata works great since it is a 4 minute HIIT session to finish off my training.


----------



## Ikaika

EllisRedding said:


> Haha, thats great.
> 
> I need to be careful and not overdo battling ropes b/c much of my training revolves around powerlifting, so too much battling ropes would actually hurt my recovery. That is why Tabata works great since it is a 4 minute HIIT session to finish off my training.




I do some lifting but my one max rep for squats is only about 220. And I'm not even sure I repeated it again, so it is closer to 185. I know pretty lame. But I lift (strict lifting and nothing else) with the guys and one woman (who can squat 250) twice a week. This is where my age shows up, I'm a weak sh!t


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> This is true, no one knows everything going on behind closed doors in a marriage. Her ex husband is a total jerk, from what my mom says, but so sad that she begged him to stay with her for a long time, was willing to forgive him for cheating, etc. I hope she finds a good man this time.


I hope so, too. And with all her seeming kindheartedness, I bet she will.

My sister's SIL was married to a man in her early 20s who cheated on her. He even got his AP pregnant.

Even with all that, the SIL was willing to forgive him, work on the marriage, etc. He didn't want any of it and left for the AP.

SIL picked herself up, got further education and a great job, and eventually met and married an aspiring businessman. Her life has been just super the last 20 years.

And she was not slim until a year or so ago. But it was not an issue for her husband.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> I hope so, too. And with all her seeming kindheartedness, I bet she will.
> 
> My sister's SIL was married to a man in her early 20s who cheated on her. He even got his AP pregnant.
> 
> Even with all that, the SIL was willing to forgive him, work on the marriage, etc. He didn't want any of it and left for the AP.
> 
> SIL picked herself up, got further education and a great job, and eventually met and married an aspiring businessman. Her life has been just super the last 20 years.
> 
> And she was not slim until a year or so ago. But it was not an issue for her husband.


This is such a beautiful story, I love happy endings like this.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> This is such a beautiful story, I love happy endings like this.


Me, too. 

She was a few years ahead of me in school. A super nice gal, always smiling, so sweet and smart.

I remember hearing from my sister how sad she was when he left her. It must have all been so hurtful at the time. 

But now, I am sure she would not have changed the outcome for the world. She has a great job, a solid marriage, two wonderful kids, and a beautiful home. Very successful woman.

That first husband did her a favor, big time.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> *There is no shortage of women who will give up love and passion to gain access to lots of money.* I wonder what really goes on behind closed doors. I can't image young women who can have young men at their peak sexual attractiveness, looking forward to intimate encounters with men like Trump or Ailes.
> 
> If you love a person, their age-related changes are blurred but if you don't love them, every flaw may appear in sharp relief.
> 
> *Money can buy a beautiful young woman but not her sexual desire.*



There is a word for women who do this: w.h.o.r.e.

And I use that word in the "technical" sense. A woman who exchanges sex just for the acquisition of money. Throughout human history, there have been men who have done this too. But I've never heard a man called a w.h.o.r.e. for doing it. At least not when he marries an old woman for her money. Obviously, "gigolo" if he is not her husband; only her paid escort and sexual employee.

W.h.o.r.e. is now used incorrectly and interchangeably with s.l.u.t. A s.l.u.t. is a woman who has sex, usually for fun and pleasure with as many (willing) men as she wants. [The male equivalent is "stud"].

Both are slurs. Though why say w.h.o.r.e. when you could simply say "prostitute"?

Because a prostitute is honest about the transaction. W.h.o.r.e.'s pretend there is love involved; even to the extent of marriage to a wrinkly, age-spotty old man, who makes her skin crawl.



I guess I'm in the minority of women who married primarily for looks. Or, looks and sexual attraction were about 70% of the attraction. The rest was an attraction that I can't define. An understanding between us. I think it's based on very, very similar FoO issues.

I never planned to have children; since I was about 13, I knew I never wanted to be a mother.

I was never ambitious to own a big house or a luxury car. One of the many joys of leaving home, was not having to be a third party to my parents financial woes. And them taking half of my earnings every month; to provide them with the spending money they wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'm not a saint; I need the basics----roof over head, food to eat, utility bill paid. And I'll fulfill as many reasonable material wants as I can. But I always knew that having a fancy house and taking vacations wasn't going to be a big motivation in my life.

Going to bed with a man that didn't excite me was always a non-option. It's not being high-minded or idealistic. Just physically honest.

If I'd wanted kids real bad; or my life dream was a house in the suburbs with a swimming pool (which is a perfectly good dream to have)-----maybe I would have chosen differently???? I've learned that many women *do* live to have children; are looking forward to it from their early teens. These women are not w.h.o.r.e.'s They love their husbands, and are usually somewhat attracted to them. But I have known women in real life who have admitted that the most important thing about a husband was that he was a good provider.

That was never me.

I only post this, because sometimes on TAM, I feel like I'm on the outside looking in; especially reading the "women aren't visual" with regards to sexual attraction, or "women are greatly attracted to financial status"----paraphrasing, it's words to that effect.

And on another thread, I was told that my marriage doesn't really even "count" fully, because I didn't have children.

So, perhaps I really am a freak of nature.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> And on another thread, I was told that my marriage doesn't really even "count" fully, because I didn't have children.
> 
> .


:surprise: Serious, why would anyone say that??? Honestly, I think more marriages would probably be better off if kids weren't involved.

I think Physical Attraction plays a very important role in relationships, especially at the onset. However, in the PC world today it gets downplayed b/c it is perceived as being selfish. Just look at the reaction if one person rejects another person based on not being physically attracted to them. The "rejector" is portrayed as a jerk, selfish, egotistical, etc... while the person who was rejected is reassured about how special they are, that they will find someone who likes them for who there are, etc... I am not saying this is always the case (i.e. of course there are times when the rejector is an actual jerk, etc...). However, many of us cannot control who we are physically attracted to or what physical traits we are drawn to


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> However, many of us cannot control who we are physically attracted to or what physical traits we are drawn to



Dontcha know it, you oily, hairy hot-mess . . . .


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Dontcha know it, you oily, hairy hot-mess . . . .


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> :surprise: Serious, why would anyone say that??? Honestly, I think more marriages would probably be better off if kids weren't involved.
> 
> I think Physical Attraction plays a very important role in relationships, especially at the onset. However, in the PC world today it gets downplayed b/c it is perceived as being selfish. Just look at the reaction if one person rejects another person based on not being physically attracted to them. The "rejector" is portrayed as a jerk, selfish, egotistical, etc... while the person who was rejected is reassured about how special they are, that they will find someone who likes them for who there are, etc... I am not saying this is always the case (i.e. of course there are times when the rejector is an actual jerk, etc...). However, many of us cannot control who we are physically attracted to or what physical traits we are drawn to


I don't think anyone is denying anyone's right to marry whoever they want, subject to the laws of their state, of course. Some of us are just saying that there are risks to marrying based mostly on physical attraction.

But certainly, no one need pay any attention to those perceived risks. All are free to do as they like.


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> I don't think anyone is denying anyone's right to marry whoever they want, subject to the laws of their state, of course.* Some of us are just saying that there are risks to marrying based mostly on physical attraction.
> *
> But certainly, no one need pay any attention to those perceived risks. All are free to do as they like.



There sure are.

Especially when one partner is much more attracted physically than the other.

But you get what you signed up for ...


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> There sure are.
> 
> Especially when one partner is much more attracted physically than the other.
> 
> *But you get what you signed up for ...*


Exactly. Owning it can alleviate the resentment.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> :surprise: Serious, why would anyone say that??? Honestly, I think more marriages would probably be better off if kids weren't involved.
> 
> I think Physical Attraction plays a very important role in relationships, especially at the onset. However, in the PC world today it gets downplayed b/c it is perceived as being selfish. Just look at the reaction if one person rejects another person based on not being physically attracted to them. The "rejector" is portrayed as a jerk, selfish, egotistical, etc... while the person who was rejected is reassured about how special they are, that they will find someone who likes them for who there are, etc... I am not saying this is always the case (i.e. of course there are times when the rejector is an actual jerk, etc...). However, many of us cannot control who we are physically attracted to or what physical traits we are drawn to



But seriously, what else are you going to say? 

"Sorry, man, but you are one ugly mf, not even a mother could love a face like that. Afraid you are doomed to live alone and die alone because no way anyone that hideous could ever possibly deserve or earn love."

Uh, no. And besides it's not even true. Physical attraction plays a role sure. For some more than others. But it is not the be all and end all. Look around you at who is in happy relationships. It isn't just the beautiful people. Indeed, the beautiful people have just as much fvcked up relationship stuff as everyone else.

ETA: I'd also add that "beautiful" isn't just defined by Playboy or Hollywood. Your avatar for example? Always thought he was kinda gross. Not my type at all. At all. And there are other Hollywood type dudes that I think are not at all fine, even though lots of other women go gaga over them. Meanwhile, there are dudes out there that make me weak at the knees just by the way they look ...


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Meaning he doesn't think he can actually lose weight? Weight is the issue, no?


He doesn't think he can lose weight, or he thinks that it won't make a difference if he does. 

Weight is only one of his health issues, but it is one way he could be looking after himself better.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> He doesn't think he can lose weight, or he thinks that it won't make a difference if he does.
> 
> Weight is only one of his health issues, but it is one way he could be looking after himself better.


You could start a thread talking about the specific issues. We might be able to offer some more specific advice. 

He sounds depressed.


----------



## jld

Totally agree on Ellis's avatar, @wild jade.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I don't think anyone is denying anyone's right to marry whoever they want, subject to the laws of their state, of course. Some of us are just saying that there are risks to marrying based mostly on physical attraction.
> 
> But certainly, no one need pay any attention to those perceived risks. All are free to do as they like.


Well, I don't think anyone here is saying that physical attraction should be the sole determination in choosing a mate.

Also, just as there are risks basing a relationship mostly on physical attraction, there is just as much a risk with basing a relationship mainly on who the person is when very little physical attraction exists.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> Well, I don't think anyone here is saying that physical attraction should be the sole determination in choosing a mate.
> 
> Also, just as there are risks basing a relationship mostly on physical attraction, there is just as much a risk with basing a relationship mainly on who the person is when very little physical attraction exists.


I think the main risk to the second is infidelity. In times past, it was more accepted, if the overall match was considered good.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Well, I don't think anyone here is saying that physical attraction should be the sole determination in choosing a mate.


Attraction, for me, is fluid. I remember in college being gaga over this really good looking guy. He was in my calc class. He wanted my help. So I got to know him. He was a total jerk. Attraction tanked after that. I did not even want to look at him.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> But seriously, what else are you going to say?
> 
> "Sorry, man, but you are one ugly mf, not even a mother could love a face like that. Afraid you are doomed to live alone and die alone because no way anyone that hideous could ever possibly deserve or earn love."
> 
> Uh, no. And besides it's not even true. Physical attraction plays a role sure. For some more than others. But it is not the be all and end all. Look around you at who is in happy relationships. It isn't just the beautiful people. Indeed, the beautiful people have just as much fvcked up relationship stuff as everyone else.
> 
> ETA: I'd also add that "beautiful" isn't just defined by Playboy or Hollywood. Your avatar for example? Always thought he was kinda gross. Not my type at all. At all. And there are other Hollywood type dudes that I think are not at all fine, even though lots of other women go gaga over them. Meanwhile, there are dudes out there that make me weak at the knees just by the way they look ...


To me, just because I am not physically attracted to someone does not mean they are physically unattractive. Someone else may feel completely different. Attraction, whether physical or emotional, is subjective.

As well, obviously you are not going to call someone an ugly mf, that is taking the example to the extreme. Just b/c you don't find someone attractive doesn't mean it is ok to berate them. However, if you are not physically attracted to someone, it is not like something you can just force, flip a switch and all of a sudden you want to hump their leg. Case in point being your example of the Hoff. 

I also find the Hoff gross :wink2:


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Attraction, for me, is fluid. I remember in college being gaga over this really good looking guy. He was in my calc class. He wanted my help.* So I got to know him. *He was a total jerk. Attraction tanked after that. I did not even want to look at him.


That will do it.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> Attraction, for me, is fluid. I remember in college being gaga over this really good looking guy. He was in my calc class. He wanted my help. So I got to know him. He was a total jerk. Attraction tanked after that. I did not even want to look at him.


Agreed, I have seen women who catch my attention at first glance, but once you talk to them any sort of attraction goes away real quick. Everyone has their own trigger points. Another example, I can't stand smoking. I don't care how "hot" a female may look, if I see her smoking a cigarette that instantaneously knocks out any attraction I may have initially had towards that person.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, I have seen women who catch my attention at first glance, but once you talk to them any sort of attraction goes away real quick. *Everyone has their own trigger points. *Another example, I can't stand smoking. I don't care how "hot" a female may look, if I see her smoking a cigarette that instantaneously knocks out any attraction I may have initially had towards that person.


That would make for a very interesting thread.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> To me, just because I am not physically attracted to someone does not mean they are physically unattractive. Someone else may feel completely different. Attraction, whether physical or emotional, is subjective.
> 
> As well, obviously you are not going to call someone an ugly mf, that is taking the example to the extreme. Just b/c you don't find someone attractive doesn't mean it is ok to berate them. However, if you are not physically attracted to someone, it is not like something you can just force, flip a switch and all of a sudden you want to hump their leg. Case in point being your example of the Hoff.
> 
> I also find the Hoff gross :wink2:



My point was really is that there is nothing PC about reassuring someone that they will find someone else or that they can be appreciated for who they are. It's just a nice human thing to do, especially if someone has just been dumped or rejected.

And yes, sometimes relationships don't work out, or one person isn't into the other. And it doesn't necessarily make you a jerk to not be attracted to someone. But some people really are jerks about this, and should be called on it when they are.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> My point was really is that there is nothing PC about reassuring someone that they will find someone else or that they can be appreciated for who they are. It's just a nice human thing to do, especially if someone has just been dumped or rejected.
> 
> And yes, sometimes relationships don't work out, or one person isn't into the other. And it doesn't necessarily make you a jerk to not be attracted to someone. But some people really are jerks about this, and should be called on it when they are.


The PC thing I was directing more at the person who rejected the other person, not the part about reassurance. Are there jerks, undoubtedly. As I mentioned, anyone who feels the need to berate/belittle at the expense of the other person is completely wrong and should be called out on it.

However, here is a good example. On the radio station that has this blown off segment, two people met online initially and decided to go out on a date. After the date, the female thought it went great, but never heard back from the guy. The radio station gets the guy on the phone. It turns out the profile pics she had been using were significantly different then how she looked now as she was much heavier in person (she acknowledged this as well). His point was that aside from being deceived by her profile pics, he just wasn't attracted to her as she currently was. The DJs then proceeds to call him shallow, self centered, selfish, etc... Now, instead of going ghost he should have at least done the courtesy of telling her that they just weren't a match. Outside of that though what would they have liked him to do, lead her on when there was no physical attraction there


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> The PC thing I was directing more at the person who rejected the other person, not the part about reassurance. Are there jerks, undoubtedly. As I mentioned, anyone who feels the need to berate/belittle at the expense of the other person is completely wrong and should be called out on it.
> 
> However, here is a good example. On the radio station that has this blown off segment, two people met online initially and decided to go out on a date. After the date, the female thought it went great, but never heard back from the guy. The radio station gets the guy on the phone. It turns out the profile pics she had been using were significantly different then how she looked now as she was much heavier in person (she acknowledged this as well). His point was that aside from being deceived by her profile pics, he just wasn't attracted to her as she currently was. The DJs then proceeds to call him shallow, self centered, selfish, etc... Now, instead of going ghost he should have at least done the courtesy of telling her that they just weren't a match. Outside of that though what would they have liked him to do, lead her on when there was no physical attraction there


Thing is if he had just told her that he didn't think they were a match, none of that would've happened. She would've moved on and had no interest in finding out why he ghosted her.

Wouldn't put too much stock in it, personally. That's what passes for entertainment these days. Finding ways to berate and humiliate people in front of an audience.


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> Well, I don't think anyone here is saying that physical attraction should be the sole determination in choosing a mate.
> 
> Also, just as there are risks basing a relationship mostly on physical attraction, there is just as much a risk with basing a relationship mainly on who the person is when very little physical attraction exists.


I don't think there are particular attributes that are more or less risky. the whole concept of lifetime relationships is plain risky, period.

Money is fleeting, looks are fleeting, attraction is fleeting. Everything is fleeting. 

people are just individuals living their own lives and don't live to meet another's "needs."


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> There is a word for women who do this: w.h.o.r.e.
> 
> And I use that word in the "technical" sense. A woman who exchanges sex just for the acquisition of money.


It's rarely this simple.

Most women who are like this are actually attracted to dudes with money.

As in, they actually perceive the guy to be better looking than he is because he is rich.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Anon1111 said:


> It's rarely this simple.
> 
> Most women who are like this are actually attracted to dudes with money.
> 
> As in, they actually perceive the guy to be better looking than he is because he is rich.

















Okay, if you say so, Anon.:grin2:


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I don't think there are particular attributes that are more or less risky. the whole concept of lifetime relationships is plain risky, period.
> 
> Money is fleeting, looks are fleeting, attraction is fleeting. Everything is fleeting.
> 
> people are just individuals living their own lives and don't live to meet another's "needs."


I disagree. Dug has been stable and confident since the day I met him. He exudes trustworthiness. I don't think there is any risk in that at all.


----------



## EllisRedding

I had to re read the OP to figure out what this thread was supposed to be about lol


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I also find the Hoff gross :wink2:



Millions of German people can't be wrong . . . can they??


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> Okay, if you say so, Anon.:grin2:


well, this is the most extreme example.

I have seen a lot of more real life examples

One guy I know is pretty average looking but is pretty successful (owns a business and 3 nice homes).

His wife is like a solid 9. There is a clear physical mismatch. 

I've remarked on this mismatch to my wife and she claims not to see it. 

At first I thought she was full of sh-t, but over time I realized that she _legitimately _thinks he is good looking. So does his wife, I'm sure.

Any casual observer would look at this couple and say she is a golddigger. But if she is legitimately attracted to him, it's not really golddigging, because it's not about the money per se. It's about what the money represents on some level.


----------



## jld

I am sure there is truth to that. I see nothing attractive, physical or otherwise, about Bill Clinton. But many other women seem to disagree with me.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Anon1111 said:


> well, this is the most extreme example.
> 
> I have seen a lot of more real life examples
> 
> One guy I know is pretty average looking but is pretty successful (owns a business and 3 nice homes).
> 
> His wife is like a solid 9. There is a clear physical mismatch.
> 
> I've remarked on this mismatch to my wife and she claims not to see it.
> 
> At first I thought she was full of sh-t, but over time I realized that she _legitimately _thinks he is good looking. So does his wife, I'm sure.
> 
> Any casual observer would look at this couple and say she is a golddigger. But if she is legitimately attracted to him, it's not really golddigging, because it's not about the money per se. It's about what the money represents on some level.




"owns a business and 3 nice homes" doesn't make a woman wet.

Maybe they use lube. To each their own. :|


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Millions of German people can't be wrong . . . can they??


Well, unfortunately the German dodgeball team did let the Hoff down ...


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> I disagree. Dug has been stable and confident since the day I met him. He exudes trustworthiness. I don't think there is any risk in that at all.


some day he will be old and frail.

Not trying to ding you, just saying that nothing is permanent.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> some day he will be old and frail.
> 
> Not trying to ding you, just saying that nothing is permanent.


Physically, yes. Emotionally, I doubt it.


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> well, this is the most extreme example.
> 
> I have seen a lot of more real life examples
> 
> One guy I know is pretty average looking but is pretty successful (owns a business and 3 nice homes).
> 
> His wife is like a solid 9. There is a clear physical mismatch.
> 
> I've remarked on this mismatch to my wife and she claims not to see it.
> 
> At first I thought she was full of sh-t, but over time I realized that she _legitimately _thinks he is good looking. So does his wife, I'm sure.
> 
> Any casual observer would look at this couple and say she is a golddigger. But if she is legitimately attracted to him, it's not really golddigging, because it's not about the money per se. It's about what the money represents on some level.


I definitely think that for some (?) there are qualities outside of physical looks that can actually enhance how one perceives physical attractiveness.


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> "owns a business and 3 nice homes" doesn't make a woman wet.
> 
> Maybe they use lube. To each their own. :|


again, it's not the money or stuff per se, it is the perceived attributes of what it takes to _obtain _that stuff.

If you look around, I'm sure you will see some rather hideous guys with smoking hot WAGs. Not all of those women actually perceive their men as hideous.

some do, and that is truly a sad compromise.


----------



## Anon1111

go to eastern Europe and check out all of the crazy hot women walking around with troll looking dudes.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> One guy I know is pretty average looking but is pretty successful (owns a business and 3 nice homes).
> 
> His wife is like a solid 9. There is a clear physical mismatch.
> 
> I've remarked on this mismatch to my wife and she claims not to see it.
> 
> At first I thought she was full of sh-t, but over time I realized that she _legitimately _thinks he is good looking. So does his wife, I'm sure.
> 
> Any casual observer would look at this couple and say she is a golddigger. But if she is legitimately attracted to him, it's not really golddigging, because it's not about the money per se. It's about what the money represents on some level.


Just because you don't see what makes him hot doesn't mean that she doesn't legitimately see him as attractive.

I see guys going gaga over women all the time, and honestly do not understand why they find that particular woman so attractive, when I personally (if I went that way) would go for something completely different. I've seen this more than once, where guys think women only dig David Hasselhoff types, but actually they have very different physical preferences.

I'm pretty sure there are women out there that find money itself to be attractive. Just like I think there are men out there that find money itself to be attractive.

But I think most of us relate to whole people. Not just a hot bod. Not just a wallet. Not just a set of personality traits. But an actual person.

And those who are chasing after just hotness or just money or just fame and status are the ones who are typically unhealthy and unhappy.


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> again, it's not the money or stuff per se, it is the perceived attributes of what it takes to _obtain _that stuff.
> 
> If you look around, I'm sure you will see some rather hideous guys with smoking hot WAGs. Not all of those women actually perceive their men as hideous.
> 
> some do, and that is truly a sad compromise.


You also have the cougars who go on the hunt at all the fancy steakhouses once the sun goes down :grin2:


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> I had to re read the OP to figure out what this thread was supposed to be about lol


Sexual jealousy and insecurity, mostly.

And so we're still kind of on topic actually ...


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Just because you don't see what makes him hot doesn't mean that she doesn't legitimately see him as attractive.
> 
> I see guys going gaga over women all the time, and honestly do not understand why they find that particular woman so attractive, when I personally (if I went that way) would go for something completely different. I've seen this more than once, where guys think women only dig David Hasselhoff types, but actually they have very different physical preferences.
> 
> I'm pretty sure there are women out there that find money itself to be attractive. Just like I think there are men out there that find money itself to be attractive.
> 
> But I think most of us relate to whole people. Not just a hot bod. Not just a wallet. Not just a set of personality traits. But an actual person.
> 
> And those who are chasing after just hotness or just money or just fame and status are the ones who are typically unhealthy and unhappy.


totally agree

my point is that to an outside observer, all you might see when looking at a couple is "she is hot" or "dude is rich"

to the people in the actual relationship, the "hotness" or "richness" or whatever is often inextricably linked to the perception of _who they are_, so the individuals don't really think "I am exchanging looks for money," but rather something more like "we have the same values" or "we're so compatible," etc, etc.

people are strange.


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> You also have the cougars who go on the hunt at all the fancy steakhouses once the sun goes down :grin2:


hotel bars too.

but it makes sense to me because if you are an attractive older woman, you are probably going to get hit on wherever you go, so why not go where you are likely to get hit on by men your age rather than the random drunk 22 yr olds at the typical bar


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> hotel bars too.
> 
> but it makes sense to me because if you are an attractive older woman, you are probably going to get hit on wherever you go, so why not go where you are likely to get hit on by men your age rather than the random drunk 22 yr olds at the typical bar


Young men are often quite grateful for the opportunity to have sex with a woman who knows what she wants, and what she is doing. And they also have great stamina, and can keep up sexually. Where often older men cannot.

Really, it's just the reverse of the older dude chasing sex toy hot trophy chicks. Except the older woman is much more likely to be up for the performance part.


----------



## Buddy400

*Deidre* said:


> Agree. It should be a lifestyle thing. What's interesting is many people who are out of shape, and then get divorced...will work hard to get their body back if they find themselves back to dating. One of my mom's friends did just this...she gained a lot of weight in her marriage, her husband had an affair, and then they divorced - she lost a lot of weight, and now looks great. Not sure why she gained weight in her marriage, *but it sends a message that her husband wasn't worth the effort, but random strangers who she is trying to 'impress' are.*...


The bolded goes directly to the OP and of the concerns some men have about "things she did for others, but not me".

Many here have interpreted this to mean quality of sex, but I think it's mostly about the bolded.


----------



## jld

A few months ago I saw a picture on Facebook of a girl from my high school class. She had a pretty rough time growing up, and is now married to a guy maybe not quite double our age (would put him past 90 ), but close. 

Yes, probably for money. But if they are both happy, does it matter?


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Young men are often quite grateful for the opportunity to have sex with a woman who knows what she wants, and what she is doing. And they also have great stamina, and can keep up sexually. Where often older men cannot.
> 
> Really, it's just the reverse of the older dude chasing sex toy hot trophy chicks. Except the older woman is much more likely to be up for the performance part.


Ben Franklin advised men to take older women for lovers, if they were planning on fooling around.


----------



## jld

Buddy400 said:


> The bolded goes directly to the OP and of the concerns some men have about "things she did for others, but not me".
> 
> Many here have interpreted this to mean quality of sex, but I think it's mostly about the bolded.


Isn't that true in a lot of ways, though, buddy? Don't you make more efforts for company than you might for your wife and kids? Wouldn't you shave for company, for example, but let some stubble grow if it were just the family around?


----------



## VladDracul

wild jade said:


> And they also have great stamina, and can keep up sexually. Where often older men cannot.


Don't kid yourself milady. Some older guys have developed moves and techniques that the 22 quick to erupt kid hasn't developed.


----------



## jld

VladDracul said:


> Don't kid yourself milady. Some older guys have developed moves and techniques that the 22 quick to erupt kid hasn't developed.


I think there is _a lot_ to be said for experience.


----------



## wild jade

VladDracul said:


> Don't kid yourself milady. Some older guys have developed moves and techniques that the 22 quick to erupt kid hasn't developed.


Ha. No doubt!

Not saying young guys are the be all and end all sexually. Or even that I would go for one. Just that they do have a lot of stamina. They might go quick the first time, but then are up again for rounds 2, 3, 4, 5 ....

You get the idea.


----------



## Buddy400

jld said:


> Isn't that true in a lot of ways, though, buddy? Don't you make more efforts for company than you might for your wife and kids? Wouldn't you shave for company, for example, but let some stubble grow if it were just the family around?


I don't think I do, but I can see that most would.

To some degree, that's not right.

When it comes to sex, men (at least) want to be assured that she wants to impress him more than other men (current or past).

I could see a woman getting irritated if she wanted her husband to do something and he only did it when company was coming over.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Ha. No doubt!
> 
> Not saying young guys are the be all and end all sexually. Or even that I would go for one. Just that they do have a lot of stamina. They might go quick the first time, but then are up again for rounds 2, 3, 4, 5 ....
> 
> You get the idea.


Some older men have a short recovery time, say a few minutes, max. A vegetarian diet can help with that, I think.

Is that what you mean?


----------



## jld

Buddy400 said:


> I don't think I do, but I can see that most would.
> 
> To some degree, that's not right.
> 
> *When it comes to sex, men (at least) want to be assured that she wants to impress him more than other men (current or past).*
> 
> I could see a woman getting irritated if she wanted her husband to do something and he only did it when company was coming over.


I have never felt like I was trying to "impress" my husband during sex. Please him, yes. But not impress him.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Some older men have a short recovery time, say a few minutes, max. A vegetarian diet can help with that, I think.
> 
> Is that what you mean?


Yes, partly, but also just overall stamina. In general (exceptions abound no doubt) younger men have way more stamina and shorter refractory period than older guys.

Plus they're a lot more likely to be grateful and receptive to instructions.

Doesn't necessarily make them better lovers, but it's decent raw material if you're a good teacher ...

... and just want a sex toy.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> I have never felt like I was trying to "impress" my husband during sex. Please him, yes. But not impress him.


Ya, my thinking too. I don't get this "impressing strangers" theme going on here.

Choosing to do or not do sexual things doesn't have anything to do with impressing anyone. It's about pleasure. For him. And for me!


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Yes, partly, but also just overall stamina. In general (exceptions abound no doubt) younger men have way more stamina and shorter refractory period than older guys.
> 
> Plus they're a lot more likely to be grateful and receptive to instructions.
> 
> Doesn't necessarily make them better lovers, but it's decent raw material if you're a good teacher ...
> 
> ... and just want a sex toy.


It sounds like a healthy older man with good stamina and an open mind could fit the bill.

Just trying to find ways to increase the supply!


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> Ya, my thinking too. I don't get this "impressing strangers" theme going on here.
> 
> Choosing to do or not do sexual things doesn't have anything to do with impressing anyone. It's about pleasure. For him. And for me!


I'll re-state it as "put more effort into pleasing others that into pleasing one's SO".

Is that still something that can't be understood?


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Young men are often quite grateful for the opportunity to have sex


fixd 4 u!


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> I'll re-state it as "put more effort into pleasing others that into pleasing one's SO".
> 
> Is that still something that can't be understood?


Oh, I understand the words. It's just that I don't see choosing to do something sexual as putting more effort in. That's all.


----------



## Buddy400

jld said:


> Some older men have a short recovery time, say a few minutes, max. A vegetarian diet can help with that, I think.
> 
> Is that what you mean?


I'm pretty sure that what @wild jade is doing is trying to make older men as insecure about younger men as she perceives men are trying to make older women insecure about younger women.

Which is OK.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> fixd 4 u!


I was just talking with a guy friend who was bragging that he has only ever dated older women.

Just sayin'


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> He doesn't think he can lose weight, or he thinks that it won't make a difference if he does.
> 
> 
> 
> Weight is only one of his health issues, but it is one way he could be looking after himself better.






wild jade said:


> Sexual jealousy and insecurity, mostly.
> 
> 
> 
> And so we're still kind of on topic actually ...




As to the topic of the OP, sure but maybe just maybe you might benefit more starting your own thread until page 1,200 when folks start talking about penis size 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> I'm pretty sure that what @wild jade is doing is trying to make older men as insecure about younger men as she perceives men are trying to make older women insecure about younger women.
> 
> Which is OK.


What makes you think that? I'm not trying to make anyone insecure. Just reflecting on what I've seen.


----------



## jld

Buddy400 said:


> I'm pretty sure that what @wild jade is doing is trying to make older men as insecure about younger men as she perceives men are trying to make older women insecure about younger women.
> 
> Which is OK.


I don't think there is any reason for anybody to feel insecure, at any age. There is something to love about everyone.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> A few months ago I saw a picture on Facebook of a girl from my high school class. She had a pretty rough time growing up, and is now married to a guy maybe not quite double our age (would put him past 90 ), but close.
> 
> Yes, probably for money. But if they are both happy, does it matter?


my great grandfather sired a couple of kids in his 70s with his second wife

my father had an aunt who was younger than him

women are somewhat inscrutable


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> Oh, I understand the words. It's just that I don't see choosing to do something sexual as putting more effort in. That's all.


I meant "understood" in the sense of "see where they're coming from".

Didn't think you would since there seems to be a chasm between men and women on this issue.


----------



## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> As to the topic of the OP, sure but maybe just maybe you might benefit more starting your own thread until page 1,200 when folks start talking about penis size
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was just responding to questions. Is that bad? 

I don't think I want a thread on here. But thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Ikaika

Buddy400 said:


> I'm pretty sure that what @wild jade is doing is trying to make older men as insecure about younger men as she perceives men are trying to make older women insecure about younger women.
> 
> Which is OK.




I don't know I'm pretty secure in knowing I'm not 25 all over again. And, that is really not so bad. I'm ok at 55. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

jld said:


> I don't think there is any reason for anybody to feel insecure, at any age. There is something to love about everyone.


Agreed


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> my great grandfather sired a couple of kids in his 70s with his second wife
> 
> my father had an aunt who was younger than him
> 
> women are somewhat inscrutable


They don't appear to have any children.

I admit I feel sad for her. But he probably provides not only money, but stability. Can't fault her for wanting that after what was probably not only a rough start in life, but challenging early adulthood, too.

Not sure what you are saying about your father's aunt? I am the youngest of a big family, and have a nephew older than I am. Does that have something to do with what we are talking about? Sorry, not following.


----------



## EllisRedding

Ikaika said:


> I don't know I'm pretty secure in knowing I'm not 25 all over again. And, that is really not so bad. I'm ok at 55.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Isn't it almost time for your nap???


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> I meant "understood" in the sense of "see where they're coming from".
> 
> Didn't think you would since there seems to be a chasm between men and women on this issue.


Chasm? You mean you've never ever tried something sexually and decided it wasn't really for you?

You've never ever gone through an experimental stage where you took greater risks than you are willing to take now?

You've never been with a partner who was substantially different in size, strength or other qualities that made certain things possible that might not be otherwise?

There are so many different reasons why you might do something in the past, but not want to again. Why the need to take it personally and assume it's all about wanting to impress or putting in more effort for someone else?


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> What makes you think that?


The amount of effort you've put into it.


----------



## jld

Buddy400 said:


> I meant "understood" in the sense of "see where they're coming from".
> 
> Didn't think you would since there seems to be a chasm between men and women on this issue.


I think as women continue to ascend economically, we are going to see more younger men with older women. The shoe is just going to change feet.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> The shoe is just going to change feet.


So from left to right foot


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> I was just responding to questions. Is that bad?
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think I want a thread on here*. But thanks for the suggestion!



We all have a story and maybe your story is one that can be beneficial to the community as well as possibly getting some insight. 

I'm sorry you feel that way (bold comments). I know it is risky and can leave a person vulnerable, but some have actually benefitted from doing so. Responding to thread as old as this one may not be so terrible, but sometimes we like to know the person giving advice. This is not to say your advice is not valuable or valid now, just it is received so much better by someone willing to take their own risk. 

I know you have a story, we all do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> Chasm? You mean you've never ever tried something sexually and decided it wasn't really for you?
> 
> You've never ever gone through an experimental stage where you took greater risks than you are willing to take now?
> 
> You've never been with a partner who was substantially different in size, strength or other qualities that made certain things possible that might not be otherwise?
> 
> There are so many different reasons why you might do something in the past, but not want to again. Why the need to take it personally and assume it's all about wanting to impress or putting in more effort for someone else?


Now we're officially starting all over again :smile2:

TAM has gone ''round and 'round on this for a long time with no narrowing of the gap between men and women on this topic.

I think the best that can be expected would be for women to understand how men think about this and take that into consideration (and the other way around).


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> So from left to right foot


From man to woman. 

In the past older men could marry younger women because they were economically dominant. That is changing.


----------



## Ikaika

EllisRedding said:


> Isn't it almost time for your nap???




I just woke you youngin'. Now get off my lawn. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> The amount of effort you've put into it.


??? You're right, I actually should be working, not chatting on the internet. But I'm facing this really boring task, and somehow this seems so much more fun ....


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> Now we're officially starting all over again :smile2:
> 
> TAM has gone ''round and 'round on this for a long time with no narrowing of the gap between men and women on this topic.
> 
> I think the best that can be expected would be for women to understand how men think about this and take that into consideration (and the other way around).


I can see that this is how you think. But I don't think it is how men think. My husband has never bothered to compare himself to my sexual past, nor has he pushed me to do anything that I don't particularly care to do. 

And he has especially not told me that I cared more about some other guy because I did this, that, or the other thing with him, but do not want to do it again.

Indeed, I happen to know that he too has done things with other women that he doesn't want to do anymore too. And it's okay.


----------



## wild jade

My SIL went through a phase when she was younger. She was the perfect good girl in all respects, but needed to rebel. And so she did.

During that time she did all sorts of things that she no longer wants to do. 

And it has absolutely nothing to do with impressing other guys more than her husband. And he totally gets that. 

She was trying to prove something to herself, not those guys she was with.

Okay, that's it. Back to work for me ....


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> ??? You're right, I actually should be working, not chatting on the internet. But I'm facing this really boring task, and somehow this seems so much more fun ....


Nothing wrong with some multi tasking ... honestly, I can't concentrate if I am only focused on one thing (as odd as that sounds lol)


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> They don't appear to have any children.
> 
> I admit I feel sad for her. But he probably provides not only money, but stability. Can't fault her for wanting that after what was probably not only a rough start in life, but challenging early adulthood, too.
> 
> Not sure what you are saying about your father's aunt? I am the youngest of a big family, and have a nephew older than I am. Does that have something to do with what we are talking about? Sorry, not following.


I just always thought it was weird that my dad had an aunt younger than him. I thought it was relevant on the general topic of age differences between partners. Must be a huge age range among your siblings!

some women (and men) I think get off on the father/daughter dynamic too, so it's not always just about money.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> ??? You're right, I actually should be working, not chatting on the internet. But I'm facing this really boring task, and somehow this seems so much more fun ....


Hey, that's what we're all doing.


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Chasm? You mean you've never ever tried something sexually and decided it wasn't really for you?
> 
> You've never ever gone through an experimental stage where you took greater risks than you are willing to take now?
> 
> You've never been with a partner who was substantially different in size, strength or other qualities that made certain things possible that might not be otherwise?
> 
> There are so many different reasons why you might do something in the past, but not want to again. Why the need to take it personally and assume it's all about wanting to impress or putting in more effort for someone else?


guys don't really think like this 

have you ever heard a guy say "I was going through an experimental phase..." ?

maybe you have, but I haven't


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> I just always thought it was weird that my dad had an aunt younger than him. I thought it was relevant on the general topic of age differences between partners. Must be a huge age range among your siblings!
> 
> some women (and men) I think get off on the father/daughter dynamic too, so it's not always just about money.


My uncle on my Mom's side is maybe 5-7 yrs older then me (he was actually my best man in my wedding). It is interesting that I can discuss and relate to many of the same things as him, something that I couldn't do with my other Uncle or Aunt (who are both 15-20 yrs older than him). 

Oh yeah, Mick Jaggar is expecting another son lol.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I just always thought it was weird that my dad had an aunt younger than him. I thought it was relevant on the general topic of age differences between partners. Must be a huge age range among your siblings!
> 
> some women (and men) I think get off on the father/daughter dynamic too, so it's not always just about money.


And if you browse Literotica, there is some mother/son stuff out there, too. Who knew?

Yes, my oldest sibling is 21 years older than I am. Old-time Catholic family. Father two years older than mother (not sure if that is relevant?).


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> guys don't really think like this
> 
> have you ever heard a guy say "I was going through an experimental phase..." ?
> 
> maybe you have, but I haven't


Are you sure?


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> ??? You're right, I actually should be working, not chatting on the internet. But I'm facing this really boring task, and somehow this seems so much more fun ....


I'm in the same situation :smile2:


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> I can see that this is how you think. But I don't think it is how men think. My husband has never bothered to compare himself to my sexual past, nor has he pushed me to do anything that I don't particularly care to do.
> 
> And he has especially not told me that I cared more about some other guy because I did this, that, or the other thing with him, but do not want to do it again.
> 
> Indeed, I happen to know that he too has done things with other women that he doesn't want to do anymore too. And it's okay.


I think that your husband is an outlier, but you'll have to read this entire thread or other men will have to reply for you to be convinced.


----------



## anonmd

Anon1111 said:


> guys don't really think like this
> 
> have you ever heard a guy say "I was going through an experimental phase..." ?
> 
> maybe you have, but I haven't


No, "took one for the team" yes .


----------



## Buddy400

jld said:


> From man to woman.
> 
> In the past older men could marry younger women because they were economically dominant. That is changing.


Are most women going to be okay with being economically dominant? 

Will they still want their husband to be dominant in the bedroom?

Will most men feel like they can be dominant in the bedroom if they're not dominant economically?

I'd say no to all of the above (or at least "not for a long time").

I'm not opposed, you can't stop the future.

I just think it's going to cause (is causing) quite a few problems in gender relations.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I think that your husband is an outlier, but you'll have to read this entire thread or other men will have to reply for you to be convinced.


I would bet that this board self selects for men who feel this way. This is a board for people having PROBLEMS with sex in marriage.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I would bet that this board self selects for men who feel this way. This is a board for people having PROBLEMS with sex in marriage.


That's very possible.

But, lately I've been asking guys "would you be okay if your wife/girlfriend did X with another guy, was okay with it, but wouldn't do it with you" and I haven't gotten a "Yes" yet.

The "was okay with it" is key.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Are most women going to be okay with being economically dominant?
> 
> Will they still want their husband to be dominant in the bedroom?
> 
> Will most men feel like they can be dominant in the bedroom if they're not dominant economically?
> 
> I'd say no to all of the above (or at least "not for a long time").
> 
> I'm not opposed, you can't stop the future.
> 
> I just think it's going to cause (is causing) quite a few problems in gender relations.


Hmmm .... been thinking about this further and it is a very interesting point. TBH, I don't know how I would respond since I have never been in this position. My role has always been that of the provider, I would like to think I don't define myself solely by this, but at the same time I take a lot of pride in this. If roles were reversed, I don't know...

Will be very interesting to see how things play out over the coming years.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> guys don't really think like this
> 
> have you ever heard a guy say "I was going through an experimental phase..." ?
> 
> maybe you have, but I haven't


Err, ya. I've met lots of guys who rebelled or went wild for a while, and then decided that wild wasn't really for them.

Lots of people explore when they are finding themselves. That allows them to be themselves, whatever that may be.

Me, I never was a good girl, so I stayed wild.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> I think that your husband is an outlier, but you'll have to read this entire thread or other men will have to reply for you to be convinced.


But I did read the thread. Just because a few internet dudes have a lot of insecurity about their wife's or girlfriend's sexuality doesn't mean it's true for all guys.

And just because a few guys think they are wilder sexually doesn't make it so. It just means that's their experience, and they happened to choose wives and girlfriends who weren't very wild. 

It's the price you have to pay for going for "good girls", judging women for being skanks, and being unable to forgive the one you love for exploring her own sexuality even though you've given yourself that same privilege.

Justify your double standards all you want. But it comes with consequences.

Just sayin'


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> That's very possible.
> 
> But, lately I've been asking guys "would you be okay if your wife/girlfriend did X with another guy, was okay with it, but wouldn't do it with you" and I haven't gotten a "Yes" yet.
> 
> The "was okay with it" is key.


And if you asked me "would you be okay if your husband gave another woman oral and was okay with it, but wouldn't do it for you", 

you wouldn't get a yes from me either.


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> Err, ya. I've met lots of guys who rebelled or went wild for a while, and then decided that wild wasn't really for them.
> 
> Lots of people explore when they are finding themselves. That allows them to be themselves, whatever that may be.
> 
> Me, I never was a good girl, so I stayed wild.




Wild is subjective. I know my wife was never that wild, and she just chose never to ask me about my past. While, I'm more adventurous than her, I also know what she is willing to indulge in and I am ok with not pushing it further. I am still very satisfied with our sex life. 

ETA: some wild things are not conducive to a healthy marriage. I treasure my marriage over my wildness. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve1000

EllisRedding said:


> I am starting to incorporate more recovery movements into my daily training (Pillar and Movement prep) along with Tabata at the end of every training session.


I'll look that up to see if I can implement something like that.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Hmmm .... been thinking about this further and it is a very interesting point. TBH, I don't know how I would respond since I have never been in this position. My role has always been that of the provider, I would like to think I don't define myself solely by this, but at the same time I take a lot of pride in this. If roles were reversed, I don't know...
> 
> Will be very interesting to see how things play out over the coming years.


I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But I'm pretty sure my wife would.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> It's the price you have to pay for going for "good girls", judging women for being skanks, and being unable to forgive the one you love for exploring her own sexuality even though you've given yourself that same privilege.


This is what most women seem to think the OP issue is all about.

But it's really more about "why did she put more effort into making some other man happy than she does for me" 



wild jade said:


> Justify your double standards all you want. But it comes with consequences.


I'm not justifying anything, just trying to figure out what's really going on.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> And if you asked me "would you be okay if your husband gave another woman oral and was okay with it, but wouldn't do it for you",
> 
> you wouldn't get a yes from me either.


So where do we disagree?

Wouldn't you wonder why your husband would do something to please another woman but wouldn't do it for you? Wouldn't that seem to mean that he doesn't care as much about your happiness as he did hers?


----------



## VladDracul

wild jade said:


> Ha. No doubt!
> 
> Not saying young guys are the be all and end all sexually. Or even that I would go for one. Just that they do have a lot of stamina. They might go quick the first time, but then are up again for rounds 2, 3, 4, 5 ....
> 
> You get the idea.


Ya, I was young once. Now I can't even judge what young is. My son's forty and a young chick to me is a 50 year old woman. Like the song sez, _"Used to have the beat the girls off with a stick. Now they say he makes me sick"_


----------



## EllisRedding

Steve1000 said:


> I'll look that up to see if I can implement something like that.


Here is a good article on Tabata

https://content.tigerfitness.com/what-is-tabata-cardio-health/

and some good info of recovery type drills:

https://content.tigerfitness.com/8-benefits-of-foam-rolling/


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Buddy400 said:


> Are most women going to be okay with being economically dominant?
> 
> Will they still want their husband to be dominant in the bedroom?


Of course the women will be totally ok, and very happy with their lives being economically dominant.

What husband?


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with it.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure my wife would.


I would like to think I wouldn't have an issue either, but who knows, never had to deal with. Although, TBH, wouldn't mind having to deal with the issue of having a sugar mama sometimes lol


----------



## Personal

Buddy400 said:


> Are most women going to be okay with being economically dominant?
> 
> Will they still want their husband to be dominant in the bedroom?
> 
> Will most men feel like they can be dominant in the bedroom if they're not dominant economically?
> 
> I'd say no to all of the above (or at least "not for a long time").
> 
> I'm not opposed, you can't stop the future.
> 
> I just think it's going to cause (is causing) quite a few problems in gender relations.


Except for two occasions (when she was on maternity leave), my wife has always had a greater income than I (20+ years). For the past 6 years aside from a couple of months following a redundancy she has been employed in six-figure (government) senior management positions.

Yet through all of that time, I have always been the dominant partner at home, socially and in the bedroom (and elsewhere) sexually. If I wasn't dominant I can't imagine my wife wanting to be with me at all.

At the end of the day since it is who I am, I have always been comfortable being dominant. I honestly can't imagine being any other way.

My wife is also taller than me and older, she is 46, I am 45, she is 5'7" while I am 5'3". For some reason she sometimes tells me she thinks I seem taller than lots of taller men.

She really likes sex, I really like sex, we have always happily shared a kaleidoscope of lots of frequent sex together. She is also sexually submissive in our non-vanilla somewhat kinky sex life.

That said she is no shrinking violet herself and has little tolerance for weakness, hesitation or insipid behaviour and has always gravitated towards being employed in leadership roles.

Incidentally we both share similar personalities and perspectives on life, we are both atheists and are well matched, although I am more extroverted while she is more introverted. On the MBTI she is an INTJ while I am an ENTJ, she was the youngest child from her family while I was the oldest. Neither of us fit with our own families of origin or our in-laws, nor do we like visiting them either. We also both think sex is just sex and that love is something outside of sex.

Our relationship comes before our children, our children follow, then friends, then work and then our families of origin.

Anyway it works for us.


----------



## NotEasy

Buddy400 said:


> I think that your husband is an outlier, but you'll have to read this entire thread or other men will have to reply for you to be convinced.


I don't think her husband is an outlier. But this whole thread makes me feel maybe I am an outlier, so what do I know. 

I can't imagine a husband pushing a wife to do something she genuinely persistently doesn't want to do. Early on my wife offered a few things which I declined as I saw she was not genuinely interested in. 

For me there would be so many escape clauses keeping this from being an issue, and the issue wouldn't be what a person did, but their motivation. But motivation is often unknown.

Firstly, why were the two spouses wandering through this minefield anyway? Anyone who plays in the minefield should expect pain. So don't blame the spouse, you partly brought this on yourself. I know very little detail of my wife's sexual history, because it is not her past but our past and future that interest me. Similarly, she hasn't asked details of my sexual past. We talk general things, but not did you do XXXX with them. I suppose maybe if old friends with loose lips were still around details might slip out, but it just seems unlikely to accidently learn this stuff; and stupid to go searching.

Secondly people change. I used to do some hobbies that I am no longer interested in. Can't think of a sexual act that I used to do but no longer want, but it seems possible this could change.

Maybe a boyfiend might push, especially if he sees her as disposable. So maybe the boyfriend got her to do something she didn't want, which she later justified and now 'stupidly' says she liked then but doesn't want to repeat. She should get her story straight, she didn't like it before and doesn't like it now, the issue was her re-writing of history.

Or maybe this was her wild days, which she no longer wants to repeat. I feel sad that someone would feel the need to limit themselves in this way, but I understand the 'only bad girls do XXXX' idea even if I don't agree with it.

Or her friends were doing it, so she did but wasn't really into it.

Or it was what we did in clubs, but I don't like clubs now.

Or that was in the decade of free love, this is now.

Or maybe she learnt it was risky healthwise.

Or a thousand other variables.

In the end it would be the motivation behind the act that would be important. The only way I can see this happening though is if someone came out and openly said, "I was so in love with them that I did it to make them happy, but I don't love you that much so no way". But then, why am I married to such an idiot who would say such a thing rather than keep their mouth shut. 

It is the love and desire to please that is important, not the particular sexual act.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> This is what most women seem to think the OP issue is all about.
> 
> But it's really more about "why did she put more effort into making some other man happy than she does for me"
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not justifying anything, just trying to figure out what's really going on.


But Buddy, why do you absolutely insist on framing it as "putting more effort in for some other man than me"

That's why you can't understand, that's why it makes you all butt hurt about it, and THAT"s NOT WHAT's HAPPENING.

People keep telling you this, but you still keep swirling back to insisting she cares more about him or put more effort into him, or she loves him more.

No. THAT's NOT WHAT's HAPPENING.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> So where do we disagree?
> 
> Wouldn't you wonder why your husband would do something to please another woman but wouldn't do it for you? Wouldn't that seem to mean that he doesn't care as much about your happiness as he did hers?


My only point was that if you ask leading questions, most of the time you will get the answer you want to get. 

I gave the example of oral because it is one sexual act that I really couldn't do without. But really, if he wasn't into giving me oral, we probably wouldn't have made it past the second date, LOL, and we've been together 20 years now.

But I also know that he's tried pegging in the past, and although he was "okay" with it, he doesn't want to do that anymore. Which is fine. I don't really find it all that exciting myself. 

But I'm not going to take it personally, that he doesn't care about me or that I now have to make him do this so that I can feel just as sexually awesome as his ex-gf. Just because my husband did stuff in his past, doesn't mean he's putting more effort in for other women, and if he was doing it to impress her? Well so what?.


----------



## alexm

Buddy400 said:


> But it's really more about "why did she put more effort into making some other man happy than she does for me"


It's really quite simple when you get right down to it.

Women (primarily, anyway) when going through the experimental phase often do things they later learn they do not like or want because they feel some sort of pressure to do so, either from their partner, (boyfriend, ONS, whatever) or pressure from themselves to perform according to what the social norm is. Keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak.

That's not to say people who do things at one point in their lives and no longer do them did them entirely out of some sort of obligation or peer pressure - many times they DO want to try for their own sakes. But the reasons for WANTING to try often come back to the partner they're with at the time, their age, their experience (or lack of it), etc.

But as far as these threads go (and there's a lot of them on TAM...) they tend to revolve around acts that are a little off the map, anyway. It's not fair to expect your spouse to engage in a threesome, even though he/she has done them before. That kind of thing is better left for the young and stupid days, when there isn't a real commitment to a partner. It's generally not something a committed couple wants to engage in with each other, but not a big deal when one is dating some guy who isn't marriage material.

But there are always things like BJ's - which, IMO, are definitely something worthy of being hurt and confused by why it's off the table now, but wasn't with other people.

A woman may give BJ's to all her partners over the years - including you, for the first bit of a relationship - then stop, and claim she has no interest in doing it, never did, always hated doing it, whatever. While it may be very, very true, it's difficult to comprehend why YOU are the one she decides it will stop with.

On one hand, she obviously feels comfortable enough in the relationship that she doesn't feel she has to do things she doesn't particularly like in order to keep you around (which is, unfortunately a very real motivation for many women to do some of the things they do while dating). In a way, it's not a bad thing - she's comfortable and trusts you.

I've learned over the years that many women who do give BJ's regularly, or even semi-regularly, do not _like_ to do it. They don't necessarily hate it, either. But it's one of those things that, obviously, some don't mind doing, it's not a big deal, whatever, but given the choice, it's not something they exactly think about or WANT. They can live without it, and couldn't care less if they ever gave one again. Or might even be glad they never have to. YMMV.

But because to most women, it's not a big deal, they do it, particularly in the earlier parts of relationships. Obviously there are many women who hate it and some of them genuinely enjoy it, but for the most part, it's just a thing they may or may not do, until they don't.

But generally speaking, the more comfortable you become with your partner, the less likely you are to continue doing the things you don't especially care about yourself, or in some cases, hate, but have always done anyway.


----------



## Vega

wild jade said:


> I gave the example of oral because it is one sexual act that I really couldn't do without. But really, if he wasn't into giving me oral, we probably wouldn't have made it past the second date, LOL, and we've been together 20 years now.


Unfortunately, so many TAM members have compared more common sex acts with *UN*common ones while trying to drive the point home, "How would YOU like it IF..." 

The OP mentioned _*a*_ threesome ( notice that it happened only ONCE), anal (statistically, only about 20% of heterosexual couples engage in male-to-female anal sex) and bondage (statistically, even FEWER couples engage in this particular activity). 

Trying to compare bondage (an uncommon activity) to oral sex (_very_ common) is like comparing apples to oranges. The argument loses it's 'punch'. 



> But I also know that he's tried pegging in the past, and although he was "okay" with it, he doesn't want to do that anymore. Which is fine. I don't really find it all that exciting myself


Yes! He was "okay" with it! It doesn't mean he LOVED it, or even LIKED it, and I wonder if the OP _mis_-interpreted his wife's "like" of the act(s). I mean, if she said that she didn't "hate" it, does that mean (in the OP's mind) that she "liked" it?

I've wondered that if she "liked" them sooooo muuuuch, why were her experiences with them so limited?


----------



## uhtred

I think it is a very wide grey area. 

you said: "...and if he was doing it to impress her? Well so what?". I think that matters. I would want my wife to care enough about me to try to impress me. I care enough about her to try to impress her. 

As others have said, I think it makes sense to distinguish between types of things that were done in the past. 

If someone did receptive anal in the past but found it painful, or disgusting, or if changes in their body have made it now painful, there is every reason not to do it. 

If someone did something one-time and regretted it - like a 3-some, there is no need to repeat that mistake.


OTOH, If someone gave their partner oral, but didn't really enjoy it. I think it is fair to ask why they are no longer willing to do it for the person that they love. I love receiving oral. My wife won't do it, and that is OK. But imagine if I found out that she had willingly given oral to lots of her partners in the past. Wouldn't it make sense for me to wonder why she wouldn't put the effort in for me that she did for others?

I think that in general if someone regularly (and willingly) engaged in an activity in the past, it indicates that it does not represent so much effort for them to do so again. 








wild jade said:


> My only point was that if you ask leading questions, most of the time you will get the answer you want to get.
> 
> I gave the example of oral because it is one sexual act that I really couldn't do without. But really, if he wasn't into giving me oral, we probably wouldn't have made it past the second date, LOL, and we've been together 20 years now.
> 
> But I also know that he's tried pegging in the past, and although he was "okay" with it, he doesn't want to do that anymore. Which is fine. I don't really find it all that exciting myself.
> 
> But I'm not going to take it personally, that he doesn't care about me or that I now have to make him do this so that I can feel just as sexually awesome as his ex-gf. Just because my husband did stuff in his past, doesn't mean he's putting more effort in for other women, and if he was doing it to impress her? Well so what?.


----------



## wild jade

uhtred said:


> I think it is a very wide grey area.
> 
> you said: "...and if he was doing it to impress her? Well so what?". I think that matters. I would want my wife to care enough about me to try to impress me. I care enough about her to try to impress her.
> 
> As others have said, I think it makes sense to distinguish between types of things that were done in the past.
> 
> If someone did receptive anal in the past but found it painful, or disgusting, or if changes in their body have made it now painful, there is every reason not to do it.
> 
> If someone did something one-time and regretted it - like a 3-some, there is no need to repeat that mistake.
> 
> 
> *OTOH, If someone gave their partner oral, but didn't really enjoy it. I think it is fair to ask why they are no longer willing to do it for the person that they love. I love receiving oral. My wife won't do it, and that is OK. But imagine if I found out that she had willingly given oral to lots of her partners in the past. Wouldn't it make sense for me to wonder why she wouldn't put the effort in for me that she did for others?
> *
> I think that in general if someone regularly (and willingly) engaged in an activity in the past, it indicates that it does not represent so much effort for them to do so again.


Yabbut, how often does this really happen? Is it a thing, or is it just the imagination running wild with insecurity?

If someone really enjoys an activity, odds are they'll keep doing it. The only reason they would stop is if -- they had a reason.

People do all kinds of crazy ass stuff to impress people, but surely it doesn't mean that they care more about those people? No. It means they were more insecure, completely unable to be confident in themselves, and desperately trying to be liked or popular or whatever instead of knowing and being themselves. 

What's the point of being jealous of that?

I don't try to impress my hubby and he doesn't try to impress me. We are just who we are. And sometimes, LOL, that's something a bit -- okay a lot -- less than awesome.


----------



## I Don't Know

Wild Jade, this is a little backwards from the normal scenario but say you and your husband split up. He meets a girl and they have a relationship. At some point he starts addressing his weight and health problems. One day you see him and his new woman jogging past you on the road. He's slim, healthy, and looking good. You wouldn't feel a little bit of "why wouldn't he do that for me?"


----------



## UMP

I was once married for 1.5 years when I was 23. Should never have gotten married. I was just too much of a ***** to take the bull by the horns and end the engagement. I did not, and she eventually cheated on me and left. I don't blame her one bit.

I would NEVER go down on her. I loved doing it to the women before her and absolutely LOVE doing it to my current wife. I go into mourning when my current wife is on her period because I cannot partake in that sweet dish.

WHY? Why did I do it for others, but not for my first wife? Simply because she ended up repulsing me in every way. The more I came to know her true self, the less I wanted her sexually. 

Sad, but true.


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> Wild Jade, this is a little backwards from the normal scenario but say you and your husband split up. He meets a girl and they have a relationship. At some point he starts addressing his weight and health problems. One day you see him and his new woman jogging past you on the road. He's slim, healthy, and looking good. You wouldn't feel a little bit of "why wouldn't he do that for me?"


Lol! The day I see my hubby jogging is the day I drop dead from shock. 

Seriously, if we're no longer a thing, then it would be pretty clear why he didn't really want to do stuff for me.


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> Lol! The day I see my hubby jogging is the day I drop dead from shock.
> 
> 
> 
> *Seriously, if we're no longer a thing, then it would be pretty clear why he didn't really want to do stuff for me*.




This is word salad without a story behind it. But oh well. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> This is word salad without a story behind it. But oh well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


?? I don't know what you mean.

I'm being asked to speculate about my reactions after my husband and I have split up.

The reality is that if we split up, he clearly wasn't having a good time with me, and so will find someone else and probably be quite happy with her. What am I supposed to do about that?


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> ?? I don't know what you mean.
> 
> I'm being asked to speculate about my reactions after my husband and I have split up.
> 
> The reality is that if we split up, he clearly wasn't having a good time with me, and so will find someone else and probably be quite happy with her. What am I supposed to do about that?




I understand the scenario, what is confusing is "then it would be pretty clear..." So, it would be? Ok, I guess, but without a story...


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## Ikaika

Wild jade, I have no idea how long you have been married, but if it has been a long term relationship, there is a subforum desert on TAM. I know it suggest success in long-term relationships, but we all know success always comes with hills (sometimes mountains) to climb, valleys to get stuck in, boring long stretches of road and the wonderful moments.

Very few venture into that subforum and so little critique will come your way. It really is full of cobwebs. Get out your duster (story) and help put a new scent to that part of TAM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> I understand the scenario, what is confusing is "then it would be pretty clear..." So, it would be? Ok, I guess, but without a story...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree that without a story it's tough to think about. But presumably if we do split up, something went wrong. Maybe he was repulsed by me like UMP was for his first wife? Maybe I got sick of him?

I don't know. My only point was that if he is with someone else then it's pretty darn obvious that he cares more about her than he does about me. There's no other interpretation is there?

But I'm not going to spend the rest of my life feeling bad about that. 

And as long as he is with me, well that's some kind of evidence that he cares about me more than those other women? No matter what he did or did not do with them?

I suppose it's possible that really he is repulsed by me and wishes he could go back to all that wonderful sex he had with his previous partners that he cared so much about. But then, he's a bit of a fool for not doing that, isn't he?


----------



## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> Wild jade, I have no idea how long you have been married, but if it has been a long term relationship, there is a subforum desert on TAM. I know it suggest success in long-term relationships, but we all know success always comes with hills (sometimes mountains) to climb, valleys to get stuck in, boring long stretches of road and the wonderful moments.
> 
> Very few venture into that subforum and so little critique will come your way. It really is full of cobwebs. Get out your duster (story) and help put a new scent to that part of TAM
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



20 years. Is that long-term enough to qualify? 

Will check it out!


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> I agree that without a story it's tough to think about. But presumably if we do split up, something went wrong. Maybe he was repulsed by me like UMP was for his first wife? Maybe I got sick of him?
> 
> I don't know. My only point was that if he is with someone else then it's pretty darn obvious that he cares more about her than he does about me. There's no other interpretation is there?
> 
> But I'm not going to spend the rest of my life feeling bad about that.
> 
> *And as long as he is with me, well that's some kind of evidence that he cares about me more than those other women? No matter what he did or did not do with them?*
> 
> I suppose it's possible that really he is repulsed by me and wishes he could go back to all that wonderful sex he had with his previous partners that he cared so much about. But then, he's a bit of a fool for not doing that, isn't he?




Yep, and thus I think this topic has been discussed ad nauseam on more than just this thread over the years (on TAM). But each of us has a unique story. 


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## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> 20 years. Is that long-term enough to qualify?
> 
> 
> 
> Will check it out!




Definitely qualifies, we only have you bested by two years. And, I was obese and a heavy drinker myself at one time. Of course, I changed for me, but no doubt my health weighed (no pun intended) heavy on our marriage. Still not perfect, but we are committed to working on it. We are both imperfect people trying to do the best we can. 


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## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> ?? I don't know what you mean.
> 
> I'm being asked to speculate about my reactions after my husband and I have split up.
> 
> *The reality is that if we split up, he clearly wasn't having a good time with me*, and so will find someone else and probably be quite happy with her. What am I supposed to do about that?


I don't think that's the sure thing you make it. Lot's of reasons you might not be together that don't involve him not wanting to be with you.

You're not supposed to do anything with it. I don't think there's anything to do with it. I just asked if you wouldn't have a thought of "why for her and not for me." Or "why WITH her and not WITH me" if you prefer. 

I'm not sure why other posters and I keep trying to find the magic scenario that will give understanding as to why some people feel like this. Maybe some people are just wired to feel that way and others aren't. 

What I don't get is the refusal to concede that it is possible that wifeX won't do actX with husbandX because he doesn't do it for her like boyfriendX did. Or that people may not end up with the person they want to end up with for whatever reason and carry a torch for that person while married to someone else.

I think that's the biggest thing for me. Is there a part of _you_ that is walled off to me and reserved for some other guy?


----------



## EllisRedding

I Don't Know said:


> What I don't get is the refusal to concede that it is possible that wifeX won't do actX with husbandX because he doesn't do it for her like boyfriendX did. Or that people may not end up with the person they want to end up with for whatever reason and carry a torch for that person while married to someone else.


I think this is a good point. Some will say they did stuff during an "experimental" stage, I get that. Let's say though during the experimental stage, it was all about dating the bad boy. The thrill she got from that is what lead to her enjoyment in certain acts. Eventually, she got over dating the bad boy, settled for the stable guy. The thrill she got from the bad boy she doesn't get from the stable guy, and that is the reason why she has no interest in performing xyz act, not that she didn't enjoy it.

This is all hypothetical, and can be gender neutral. It does bring up an interesting point though as @I_Don't_Know mentioned. Is there a difference if a certain act isn't done b/c the person didn't enjoy it vs. the person just doesn't think they will enjoy it with you?


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> I don't think that's the sure thing you make it. Lot's of reasons you might not be together that don't involve him not wanting to be with you.
> 
> You're not supposed to do anything with it. I don't think there's anything to do with it. I just asked if you wouldn't have a thought of "why for her and not for me." Or "why WITH her and not WITH me" if you prefer.
> 
> I'm not sure why other posters and I keep trying to find the magic scenario that will give understanding as to why some people feel like this. Maybe some people are just wired to feel that way and others aren't.
> 
> What I don't get is the refusal to concede that it is possible that wifeX won't do actX with husbandX because he doesn't do it for her like boyfriendX did. Or that people may not end up with the person they want to end up with for whatever reason and carry a torch for that person while married to someone else.
> 
> I think that's the biggest thing for me. Is there a part of _you_ that is walled off to me and reserved for some other guy?


Oh, I can see how it's possible. But then think you probably have much bigger problems. It would be heart-breaking to be with someone who was carrying a torch for another. I couldn't do it myself. No way!

I just don't think it fair to go from "they did some fun sex act with someone else that they don't want to do with me" to "they carry a torch for that person, and there is no way I can compete until I get that sex act too."


----------



## Anon1111

I Don't Know said:


> I'm not sure why other posters and I keep trying to find the magic scenario that will give understanding as to why some people feel like this. Maybe some people are just wired to feel that way and others aren't.
> 
> What I don't get is the refusal to concede that it is possible that wifeX won't do actX with husbandX because he doesn't do it for her like boyfriendX did. Or that people may not end up with the person they want to end up with for whatever reason and carry a torch for that person while married to someone else.
> 
> I think that's the biggest thing for me. Is there a part of _you_ that is walled off to me and reserved for some other guy?


I can't claim to fully understand it either, but I have a few theories

1. chicks see each individual relationship as its own distinct world with its own laws of physics. in their minds it is impossible to compare different "worlds" because they are fundamentally different

2. isolating individual acts arguably carries with it the implication that a woman "owes" some sex act to men

3. isolating individual acts also arguably introduces baggage regarding sl-t shaming and prudery (essentially, women seem to want to preserve total authority to make decisions regarding sexuality, which is understandable, but without any judgment, which is less so, since all other behavior is open for judgment. I think this distinction is due to the issues in this point 3).


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> What I don't get is the refusal to concede that it is possible that wifeX won't do actX with husbandX because he doesn't do it for her like boyfriendX did.





EllisRedding said:


> Eventually, she got over dating the bad boy, settled for the stable guy. The thrill she got from the bad boy she doesn't get from the stable guy, and that is the reason why she has no interest in performing xyz act, not that she didn't enjoy it.


Thinking about this more and fact is, we all face the reality that there's someone sexier/better/more beautiful whatever than we are. And we can spend our lives worrying about this, or we can let it go and just live.

It's not like I can't see that he may have had better sex in the past than he had with me. With someone way hotter, way sexier, who did it for him like I can't. I just don't see the point in being upset about it.

Only way out is to get with someone who has never had sex with anyone else or who has a track record of getting with really lousy lovers.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> I can't claim to fully understand it either, but I have a few theories
> 
> 1. chicks see each individual relationship as its own distinct world with its own laws of physics. in their minds it is impossible to compare different "worlds" because they are fundamentally different
> 
> 2. isolating individual acts arguably carries with it the implication that a woman "owes" some sex act to men
> 
> 3. isolating individual acts also arguably introduces baggage regarding sl-t shaming and prudery (essentially, women seem to want to preserve total authority to make decisions regarding sexuality, which is understandable, but without any judgment, which is less so, since all other behavior is open for judgment. I think this distinction is due to the issues in this point 3).



Wow, man. I think you are so far off, I can't hardly begin.

Fact is chicks compare all the time. You don't think I can compare one bf to another? You're kidding right?

Don't you think that men have any agency when it comes to sex? Because I sure do. They know what they like, they know what they don't like. They exercise those preferences all the time.

The rest I can't make heads or tails of.


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> Oh, I can see how it's possible. But then think you probably have much bigger problems. It would be heart-breaking to be with someone who was carrying a torch for another. I couldn't do it myself. No way!
> 
> I just don't think it fair to go from "they did some fun sex act with someone else that they don't want to do with me" to "they carry a torch for that person, and there is no way I can compete until I get that sex act too."


Agreed, many of us have said all along that there are many reasons someone may not want to do a particular sex act. 

I'm not sure how to explain this. But that last line in your post, if it got to that point even getting that sex act wouldn't solve the problem. I'm talking about it getting to the point that we've eliminated most or all other possibilities except "that part of me was for him not for you."

It doesn't even have to be a sex thing. I wonder sometimes why my wife liked drinking with guys during the year before we met but it's never been something she wanted to do with me. It seems weird to me but whatever. I assume it's because she had to be drunk to want to have sex with the guys she dated before me. :grin2:


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Wow, man. I think you are so far off, I can't hardly begin.
> 
> Fact is chicks compare all the time. You don't think I can compare one bf to another? You're kidding right?
> 
> Don't you think that men have any agency when it comes to sex? Because I sure do. They know what they like, they know what they don't like. They exercise those preferences all the time.
> 
> The rest I can't make heads or tails of.


well, I did expect you would disagree, so at least I've figured out that much!


----------



## wild jade

Different people do bring out different sides of us. Or can, at least.


----------



## notmyrealname4

I Don't Know said:


> Wild Jade, this is a little backwards from the normal scenario but say you and your husband split up. He meets a girl and they have a relationship. At some point he starts addressing his weight and health problems. One day you see him and his new woman jogging past you on the road. * He's slim, healthy, and looking good. You wouldn't feel a little bit of "why wouldn't he do that for me?"*





wild jade said:


> Lol! The day I see my hubby jogging is the day I drop dead from shock.
> 
> Seriously, if we're no longer a thing, then it would be pretty clear why he didn't really want to do stuff for me.



Jade,

In IDon'tKnow's scenario the fact that you are divorced is the sub-text----why or how or when you got divorced is almost irrelevant.

Can we take as fact:


Your husband is overweight

He won't do anything about it

It bothers you

He'd be healthier if he weighed less

He'd be much more visually sexy if weighed less.


Ergo, *if* post_-hypothetical_-divorce, you saw him out jogging, lean and sexy; you wouldn't wonder, just a teensy-weensy bit, why the fck didn't he get fit and healthy when you were together? He knew it mattered to you.


----------



## Ikaika

wild jade said:


> Wow, man. I think you are so far off, I can't hardly begin.
> 
> 
> 
> Fact is chicks compare all the time. You don't think I can compare one bf to another? You're kidding right?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you think that men have any agency when it comes to sex? Because I sure do. They know what they like, they know what they don't like. They exercise those preferences all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> The rest I can't make heads or tails of.



Making comparative judgements happen all the time, and is a gender neutral thing. 

I would say however, in many instances different was just, different for me and not always about "Jill" was better than "Anne". In some cases a lover may not be all that good, which may be attributed to inexperience or other hang ups. But, while sometimes it may be easy to judge, more often than not I would attribute the term different. 

I also think it can be a word of caution to couples who get stuck in a sexual rut and not discuss exploring new adventures to allow that which was simply different to paint a yearning based on faulty memories. 

Humans really are not reliable on some emotional memories, but we can tire of routine and dream up a memory which may not have actually been as good as it really was. So, this is one where I would say judgement needs to have its own discernment. 

My wife and I often talk about sexual adventures so we don't grow vanilla (which is funny to say since neither of us are vanilla). It almost got us in trouble once, but that too was so hot and exciting. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Ikaika said:


> Making comparative judgements happen all the time, and is a gender neutral thing.
> 
> I would say however, in many instances different was just, different for me and not always about "Jill" was better than "Anne". In some cases a lover may not be all that good, which may be attributed to inexperience or other hang ups. But, while sometimes it may be easy to judge, more often than not I would attribute the term different.
> 
> I also think it can be a word of caution to couples who get stuck in a sexual rut and not discuss exploring new adventures to allow that which was simply different to paint a yearning based on faulty memories.
> 
> Humans really are not reliable on some emotional memories, but we can tire of routine and dream up a memory which may not have actually been as good as it really was. So, this is one where I would say judgement needs to have its own discernment.
> 
> My wife and I often talk about sexual adventures so we don't grow vanilla (which is funny to say since neither of us are vanilla). It almost got us in trouble once, but that too was so hot and exciting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Brilliant!


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> Jade,
> 
> In IDon'tKnow's scenario the fact that you are divorced is the sub-text----why or how or when you got divorced is almost irrelevant.
> 
> Can we take as fact:
> 
> 
> Your husband is overweight
> 
> He won't do anything about it
> 
> It bothers you
> 
> He'd be healthier if he weighed less
> 
> He'd be much more visually sexy if weighed less.
> 
> 
> Ergo, *if* post_-hypothetical_-divorce, you saw him out jogging, lean and sexy; you wouldn't wonder, just a teensy-weensy bit, why the fck didn't he get fit and healthy when you were together? He knew it mattered to you.


But that's just it. In the scenario we've split. So to me it's obvious he wouldn't be working too hard to please me. And of course he would want to be all he could be for his new love. I'm just old news at that point. And so is he.

Honestly, I don't think his weight gain is about me at all. And yes, he would be more visually appealing without it, but I mostly care about his health and vigour.


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> But that's just it. In the scenario we've split. So to me it's obvious he wouldn't be working too hard to please me. * And of course he would want to be all he could be for his new love*. I'm just old news at that point. And so is he.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think his weight gain is about me at all. And yes, he would be more visually appealing without it, but I mostly care about his health and vigour.


So, the ability to be "all he could be" is there; *you just don't inspire it.* (in the scenario)

That's where the emotional pain comes from for the uninspiring spouse. Why am I uninspiring? Was I always? Why did you marry me?

If you truly do not relate to that at all; then you're wired a bit differently than most people. Which is great, in that you've got a strength others don't have.


----------



## Vega

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, the ability to be "all he could be" is there; *you just don't inspire it.* (in the scenario)
> 
> That's where the emotional pain comes from for the uninspiring spouse. Why am I uninspiring? Was I always? Why did you marry me?
> 
> If you truly do not relate to that at all; then you're wired a bit differently than most people. Which is great, in that you've got a strength others don't have.


The ability to "be all he could be" should NOT include "...for _ME_". We should be inspiring our partner to be their best selves FOR _themselves_; not for anyone else, including US. 

But we also have to understand that we're not going to be the ONLY influence in our partner's lives and at times, we may not even be the _best_ influence in their life. 

Our partner gets the ultimate say over their own life, even if we don't like their decisions. 

The pain you talk about doesn't come from our spouse; it comes from our own beliefs about our spouse and about ourselves. 

If we believe that our spouse "should" ONLY be influenced by *us*, we're going to suffer some form of pain (sorrow, anger) when it doesn't happen. It's only when we change our beliefs and expectations does the pain stop. 

It's not about how people are "wired". People change their beliefs all the time.


----------



## uhtred

Well, being the sexiest man on earth, I don't have this problem :wink2:

More seriously though, I want my wife to be more attracted to me in general (not just physically) than she is to anyone else. I actually think she is, even though that attraction level is fairly low. Its how I feel about her. 






wild jade said:


> Thinking about this more and fact is, we all face the reality that there's someone sexier/better/more beautiful whatever than we are. And we can spend our lives worrying about this, or we can let it go and just live.
> 
> It's not like I can't see that he may have had better sex in the past than he had with me. With someone way hotter, way sexier, who did it for him like I can't. I just don't see the point in being upset about it.
> 
> Only way out is to get with someone who has never had sex with anyone else or who has a track record of getting with really lousy lovers.


----------



## Buddy400

alexm said:


> But generally speaking, the more comfortable you become with your partner, the less likely you are to continue doing the things you don't especially care about yourself, or in some cases, hate, but have always done anyway.


To me, that sounds like the definition of "taking someone for granted"


----------



## Buddy400

NotEasy said:


> In the end it would be the motivation behind the act that would be important. The only way I can see this happening though is if someone came out and openly said, "I was so in love with them that I did it to make them happy, but I don't love you that much so no way".


What if this IS what they think but are smart enough not to say it?



NotEasy said:


> *It is the love and desire to please that is important*, not the particular sexual act.


Agreed. That's what I've been trying to say.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> Yabbut, how often does this really happen? Is it a thing, or is it just the imagination running wild with insecurity?


That's a discussion which could be had; does this really happen?



wild jade said:


> If someone really enjoys an activity, odds are they'll keep doing it. The only reason they would stop is if -- they had a reason.


You're missing the possibility the "given regularly and willingly" may not be the same thing as "really enjoying an activity".

The reason they might stop "giving regularly and willingly" may be that they don't care about your happiness as much as they did someone else's. Or, they are so comfortable in their relationship with you that they no longer feel like they have to put any effort into satisfying your desires.


----------



## Buddy400

Anon1111 said:


> 3. isolating individual acts also arguably introduces baggage regarding sl-t shaming and prudery (essentially, women seem to want to preserve total authority to make decisions regarding sexuality, which is understandable, but without any judgment, which is less so, since all other behavior is open for judgment. I think this distinction is due to the issues in this point 3).


You are very wise!


----------



## NotEasy

Buddy400 said:


> What if this IS what they think but are smart enough not to say it?


Yes, I expect most people who felt no love or desire to please yet wanted to stay in the marriage would be smart enough to avoid saying they don't love. They would fake it just enough. 

And I think there could perhaps be other reasons or justifications that particular sexual acts are not longer on the table. So, for me, this whole approach gets mirky and uncertain. For me motivation is key, but also often not knowable with certainty, one can only guess. 

Marriage is not easy, there is a reason for my member name.


----------



## VladDracul

wild jade said:


> Wow, man. I think you are so far off, I can't hardly begin.


Jade, the longer youre here and the more you read the more you realize that most men don't have a clue about women. 
:wink2:


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> That's a discussion which could be had; does this really happen?
> 
> 
> 
> You're missing the possibility the "given regularly and willingly" may not be the same thing as "really enjoying an activity".
> 
> The reason they might stop "giving regularly and willingly" may be that they don't care about your happiness as much as they did someone else's. Or, they are so comfortable in their relationship with you that they no longer feel like they have to put any effort into satisfying your desires.


 @Buddy400 

Many surveys on sexual frequency in LTR show that women who orgasm frequently have more sexual encounters with their partner than women who rarely or never orgasm. Regular sex and enjoyment are related.

No temporal relationship can be assumed but taking it at it's face, enjoying sex may factor into the desire for it. 

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a person to "give regularly and willingly" for decades to show they care about their partners happiness.

The terms giving and satisfying a partners desires seem destined to lead to problems in the sexual relationship. 

I wanted to point out how important words are in shaping how we think and what we do. Given that orgasm and pleasure are as important to women as they are to men, giving and meeting non sexual needs as a substitute may not support that reality. 

My advice is, rather than expecting giving from women, aim to have mutual pleasure. It's better insurance for a satisfactory sex life over the long run.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> The terms giving and satisfying a partners desires seem destined to lead to problems in the sexual relationship.


It's pretty obvious that many women have a problem with the word "giving" when used in connection with sex.

I think this is a bit odd and almost certainly a backlash against the bad old days when women weren't "supposed" like sex and were expected to just "give" it.

I don't understand why if, my wife loves something and I don't mind doing it, I shouldn't do it (assuming that it's not a one sided relationship).important to me.


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> It's pretty obvious that many women have a problem with the word "giving" when used in connection with sex.
> 
> I think this is a bit odd and almost certainly a backlash against the bad old days when women weren't "supposed" like sex and were expected to just "give" it.
> 
> I don't understand why if, my wife loves something and I don't mind doing it, I shouldn't do it (assuming that it's not a one sided relationship).important to me.


The bad old days are still here to a degree for some women. It morphed from women don't like sex but will give it to they like sex and like giving it. Hopefully, the cultural distortion will finally be dropped all together and women like sex and like getting it will gain traction. 

Can you name anything in your life that comes close to the pleasure and satisfaction of sex? I can't but, many men seem to feel that meeting nonsexual needs substitutes for "giving" sexual pleasure to their partner. 

Would the average man accept a substitute for sex from his wife while willingly giving her sexual pleasure? I think a good sex life starts with attitudes that support the best chances of LT success. 

Over the long run, the best chance for an enduring and satisfying sexual relationships is to keep the sexual balance sheet in the bedroom and the chore balance sheet in the kitchen. 

Women crave orgasms as much as men and feel despondent and frustrated when their partner does not understand and care about their sexual needs.


----------



## Personal

Buddy400 said:


> It's pretty obvious that many women have a problem with the word "giving" when used in connection with sex.
> 
> I think this is a bit odd and almost certainly a backlash against the bad old days when women weren't "supposed" like sex and were expected to just "give" it.
> 
> I don't understand why if, my wife loves something and I don't mind doing it, I shouldn't do it (assuming that it's not a one sided relationship).important to me.


Yep! Absent frequent orgasms, sex would get very old very quickly.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> Women crave orgasms as much as men and feel despondent and frustrated when their partner does not understand and care about their sexual needs.



Agree 100%. But I don't get the impression that (most) of the guys on here are against finding out what gives their wives pleasure; and then giving it to her.

I've always been for giving my husband as much sexual happiness as I can. He doesn't feel that for me as much. It's become evident over the last few years.

He's not totally unwilling to help me out; but he's not going to do anything that takes too much effort.


So maybe the problem isn't that "you suck in bed, that's why your wife won't [whatever]"

Maybe the wife does have an agenda. Maybe there is a power play. Maybe not. But it's possible.



=====================================
**As always, we're not talking about doing things that are physically damaging or that involve bringing third parties into the marriage.


----------



## Red Sonja

alexm said:


> But generally speaking, the more comfortable you become with your partner, the less likely you are to continue doing the things you don't especially care about yourself, or in some cases, hate, but have always done anyway.


This makes no sense to me. Why would I do things that I do not particularly like with a partner I do not know well enough to be comfortable with, in the first place?

I must be an outlier.


----------



## Personal

Red Sonja said:


> I must be an outlier.


I don't think so.


----------



## alexm

Red Sonja said:


> This makes no sense to me. Why would I do things that I do not particularly like with a partner I do not know well enough to be comfortable with, in the first place?
> 
> I must be an outlier.


Perhaps you are! I was more referring to when we're a little younger, though. It's much more typical to see this kind of thing when one is dating and still trying to figure things out. We guys do it, too, though not with sex.

There's a reason there are jokes about BJ's stopping once one gets married.


----------



## Personal

alexm said:


> There's a reason there are jokes about BJ's stopping once one gets married.


I had never heard of such jokes until I found TAM.

Having said that I've been married twice and although my first marriage was rather short, I can say BJ's didn't stop or diminish throughout that marriage until I separated from her. Likewise with my second marriage, they haven't stopped or diminished thus far either.


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, the ability to be "all he could be" is there; *you just don't inspire it.* (in the scenario)
> 
> That's where the emotional pain comes from for the uninspiring spouse. Why am I uninspiring? Was I always? Why did you marry me?
> 
> If you truly do not relate to that at all; then you're wired a bit differently than most people. Which is great, in that you've got a strength others don't have.


Honestly, I want to be special as much as the next person -- and I too have my own insecurities. If I thought my husband was carrying a torch for another and being with just because he couldn't get someone better, I wouldn't be at all happy, and wouldn't want to be in that relationship.

I don't think I'm wired any differently than other people. I just don't want to spend my life feeling bad about myself because my partner doesn't like some specific sex acts. You have to watch what you take on board, how you let other people affect your self worth.

I learned that the hard way, BTW.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> That's a discussion which could be had; does this really happen?
> 
> 
> 
> You're missing the possibility the "given regularly and willingly" may not be the same thing as "really enjoying an activity".
> 
> The reason they might stop "giving regularly and willingly" may be that they don't care about your happiness as much as they did someone else's. Or, they are so comfortable in their relationship with you that they no longer feel like they have to put any effort into satisfying your desires.


Catherine already answered this, IMHO. But she's right. Most men aren't going to do something they don't particularly like year after year and decade after decade either. Sex is supposed to be fun, not some arduous chore where one person has all the fun while the other one diligently puts up with whatever so that other person can have all the fun.

How is that fair or reasonable to ask that?


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> To me, that sounds like the definition of "taking someone for granted"


Really? It's taking someone for granted to be honest about what you like and don't like?


----------



## anonmd

Catherine602 said:


> The bad old days are still here to a degree for some women. It morphed from women don't like sex but will give it to they like sex and like giving it. Hopefully, the cultural distortion will finally be dropped all together and women like sex and like getting it will gain traction.
> 
> *Can you name anything in your life that comes close to the pleasure and satisfaction of sex? I can't but, many men seem to feel that meeting nonsexual needs substitutes for "giving" sexual pleasure to their partner.
> *
> Would the average man accept a substitute for sex from his wife while willingly giving her sexual pleasure? I think a good sex life starts with attitudes that support the best chances of LT success.
> 
> Over the long run, the best chance for an enduring and satisfying sexual relationships is to keep the sexual balance sheet in the bedroom and the chore balance sheet in the kitchen.
> 
> Women crave orgasms as much as men and feel despondent and frustrated when their partner does not understand and care about their sexual needs.


Now, come on here. There is a whole industry worth of psychobable books explaining that the reason your wife doesn't want to have sex is everything BUT the sex. Can't have it both ways. 

And btw,often times she can't have an orgasm unless she wants to and allows herself. 

As far as the last paragraph goes, I'd say certainly some women feel that way. Not all, probably not even half in a LTR, but my sample size is limited so what do I know.


----------



## Catherine602

anonmd said:


> Now, come on here. There is a whole industry worth of psychobable books explaining that the reason your wife doesn't want to have sex is everything BUT the sex. Can't have it both ways.
> 
> And btw,often times she can't have an orgasm unless she wants to and allows herself.
> 
> As far as the last paragraph goes, I'd say certainly some women feel that way. Not all, probably not even half in a LTR, but my sample size is limited so what do I know.


And here is the problem. I'm a woman and I'm sharing my experience of sex. However, you find the info in books and unfounded assumptions a better source of info on female sexuality. You don't appreciate the value of hearing directly from women. 

Many men say they want to please their wives and they are sincere. However, they are hampered by assumptions that have nothing to do with the woman they are with. 

I'm sharing this from the my female perspective. If I have sex 4 times a week and I orgasm 3 times, I'm happy. If only 2 times, I can deal with but it's not ideal, once or none would be intolerably frustrating. 

If too many orgasms are missed because I'm expected to give, I would communicate that. If he indicated that he does not feel I care about him and his needs if I don't do X,Y and Z then I would do what he wants. 

Knowing myself though, I could not tolerate a sex life that was based on me doing things to show I care, not for very long. I would slowly lose interest. I can give my husband pleasure with none for myself but only when I'm in the mood. 

What I'm saying is to be careful not to let the things you read in blogs and web sites that confirm biases . Preconceived unfounded beliefs have a way of getting in the way of sustaining a happy longterm sexual sex life. 

Don't get into the habit of expecting your partner to give so much to prove her love. In fact, don't assume anything but listen to verbal and nonverbal cues from women. 

I am not saying sex should be all about women. It should be fun for both. Love can't be equated to sexual sacrifice for either partner. It is not natural.


----------



## anonmd

I'm sure it is true for you Catherine. Wish it were true for my wife, that I could work with.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> *Can you name anything in your life that comes close to the pleasure and satisfaction of sex*?


I think this is one area where you and I might disagree, Catherine.:frown2: 

I can think of a LOT of things that would give me MORE pleasure and satisfaction in life than sex _at the moment_. 

It seems that there are many people who view sex as The Ultimate Human Experience. They would rather have sex than do anything else. 

But there are others who view sex as _*an*_ experience; not _THE_ experience. There are other experiences that are just as valuable, or even MORE valuable than having sex. 

In all honesty, at the end of our lives, are any of us going to regret the sexual experiences that we DIDN'T have? Are we going to regret not having MORE sex, even if we're not having a lot of sex NOW?


----------



## Catherine602

I understand @anonmd, not all women respond positively to their husbands desire to have mutually satisfying sex. Most don't know anything about the true inner life of men. 

I wish I had a solution. Books and reading post from men helped me to accept my husbands maleness. I won't say I always understand because many things I just can't but I respect that it is true. I find that he is more accepting of some of the things he cannot understand about me.


----------



## Catherine602

Vega said:


> I think this is one area where you and I might disagree, Catherine.:frown2:
> 
> I can think of a LOT of things that would give me MORE pleasure and satisfaction in life than sex _at the moment_.
> 
> It seems that there are many people who view sex as The Ultimate Human Experience. They would rather have sex than do anything else.
> 
> But there are others who view sex as _*an*_ experience; not _THE_ experience. There are other experiences that are just as valuable, or even MORE valuable than having sex.
> 
> In all honesty, at the end of our lives, are any of us going to regret the sexual experiences that we DIDN'T have? Are we going to regret not having MORE sex, even if we're not having a lot of sex NOW?


 @Vega the first time I orgasmed with my husband was 2 year into our relationship. I will never forget it. 

I could not believe there was such an experience available to humans. After that one, I wanted more. I can't imagine life without orgasms. 

It is not only the pleasure, it's the complete change in consciousness and the peace and contentment afterwards. Also a sense of accomplishment, why I don't know.


----------



## Vega

notmyrealname4 said:


> Catherine602 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Vega the first time I orgasmed with my husband was 2 year into our relationship. I will never forget it.
> 
> I could not believe there was such an experience available to humans. After that one, I wanted more. *I can't imagine life without orgasms.
> *
> It is not only the pleasure, it's the complete change in consciousness and the peace and contentment afterwards. Also a sense of accomplishment, why I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> But you DID have a life PRIOR to having orgasms. However, once you started having them, does that mean that your life prior to having them _SUCKED_?
> 
> I dunno. I guess I just don't wrap ALL of my happiness up in ONE thing, nor am I determined to be miserable without it.
> 
> It's like, if I'm having orgasms, GREAT. But if I'm not, that doesn't mean that the rest of my life SUCKS, lol! My life is still GREAT whether I'm having them or not.
Click to expand...


----------



## Holdingontoit

Vega said:


> In all honesty, at the end of our lives, are any of us going to regret the sexual experiences that we DIDN'T have? Are we going to regret not having MORE sex, even if we're not having a lot of sex NOW?


Yes. I already do regret the sex I didn't have. And I regret not having more sex. And as remaining life grows shorter, I expect the regret will grow rather than wane.


----------



## Vega

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes. I already do regret the sex I didn't have. And I regret not having more sex. And as remaining life grows shorter, I expect the regret will grow rather than wane.


Let's see what you have to say when you're actually _*at*_ the end of your life. You still have a few decades left, I'm sure.


----------



## Red Sonja

Vega said:


> In all honesty, at the end of our lives, are any of us going to regret the sexual experiences that we DIDN'T have? Are we going to regret not having MORE sex, even if we're not having a lot of sex NOW?


Yes, I do. I regret spending 28 years of my life with a man who dismissed the gift of my sexuality. I left him behind over 2 years ago and I still sometimes tear up when I allow myself to think about it.


----------



## Red Sonja

@Vega, perhaps you do not understand what sex means to others. I'll tell you what it means to me ...

Sex where there is mutual love is about pleasure, yes absolutely. However, it is also the ultimate in human connection. For me, connections to other human-beings are what life is about.

Not having that IS something worthy of regret.


----------



## anonmd

Catherine602 said:


> I understand @anonmd, not all women respond positively to their husbands desire to have mutually satisfying sex. Most don't know anything about the true inner life of men.
> 
> I wish I had a solution. Books and reading post from men helped me to accept my husbands maleness. I won't say I always understand because many things I just can't but I respect that it is true. I find that he is more accepting of some of the things he cannot understand about me.


Sounds delightful

The latest 'solution' is brutal honesty and giving her total control. 

Seems she is incapable of a spontaneous sexual thought, she admits it after I put that in writing and gave her a day to ponder before we talked, so any effort at promoting such thoughts on my part is pointless. The brutal honesty part is making it perfectly clear just how crappy her default of once or perhaps twice a month is. 

So, I've defined tolerable and she seems to be working within that lately. She will even bring it up towards the end of the acceptable gap and make a promise for later in the day if we've slipped past her normal time slot, that's a pleasant change. 

We'll see if it lasts. We've been wrestling with this for 4 or 5 years now, although the total length of the problem is multiples of that. There have been periods of improvement that faded, and the final onset of menopause mixed in has not helped either. Sometimes I think I should have been more of an assho1e earlier on.


----------



## Vega

Red Sonja said:


> @Vega, perhaps you do not understand what sex means to others. I'll tell you what it means to me ...
> 
> Sex where there is mutual love is about pleasure, yes absolutely. However, it is also the ultimate in human connection. For me, connections to other human-beings are what life is about.
> 
> Not having that IS something worthy of regret.


I have deeper connections to people who I DON'T have sex with. 
My children...my family...my extended family...my friends...

The people I did have sex with are no longer in my life so,
how "deep" could _those_ connections have been?


----------



## karole

Vega said:


> I have deeper connections to people who I DON'T have sex with.
> My children...my family...my extended family...my friends...
> 
> The people I did have sex with are no longer in my life so,
> how "deep" could _those_ connections have been?


That's sad,


----------



## uhtred

My life has been very good. My marriage has been very good, but one thing that I really regret is that I didn't understand the importance of a good sex life early on. 



Vega said:


> snip
> In all honesty, at the end of our lives, are any of us going to regret the sexual experiences that we DIDN'T have? Are we going to regret not having MORE sex, even if we're not having a lot of sex NOW?


----------



## Catherine602

Vega said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But you DID have a life PRIOR to having orgasms. However, once you started having them, does that mean that your life prior to having them _SUCKED_?
> 
> I dunno. I guess I just don't wrap ALL of my happiness up in ONE thing, nor am I determined to be miserable without it.
> 
> It's like, if I'm having orgasms, GREAT. But if I'm not, that doesn't mean that the rest of my life SUCKS, lol! My life is still GREAT whether I'm having them or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I did. Pre orgasm, sex was pleasant, I had my husbands full attention and it partly fulfilled my need for affection.
> 
> I don't know if that would have been enough to sustain a good sex life for both of us for the long run. I didn't know what I didn't know.
> 
> You are right, life would not suck if I did not have sex. I was being hyperbolic. For sure my life would suck if I was having sex and no orgasms.
> 
> @Vega you are going through a bad time now. Please know that you will heal in time and with work. The when you are ready for a relationship, don't give everything. It seems that LTR where the women concentrates on giving the man everything he wants, ultimately fail.
> 
> Men say they want that but they end up dissatisfied if they get sex with no limits. It does not make them love or appreciate the giver.
> 
> It's like online porn. Anything obtained without cost is not valued, limitless sex leads to satiation and ultimately the need for more and different.
> 
> Figure out what you need and want and don't be afraid of making it a requirement for a relationship. You also need to fix your picker.
> 
> Never give more than you get and don't take on needy men or those who need a woman help.
Click to expand...


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Vega said:


> I have deeper connections to people who I DON'T have sex with.
> My children...my family...my extended family...my friends...
> 
> The people I did have sex with are no longer in my life so,
> how "deep" could _those_ connections have been?


I think this is a major issue with a lot of marriages. To one spouse, sex is meh, it's ok.

To the other, it is THE MOST important way to bond to the other person, having sexual intimacy is FAR & ABOVE ANYTHING else in making the relationship stronger. Both feel they are the norm.


----------



## Vega

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I think this is a major issue with a lot of marriages. To one spouse, sex is meh, it's ok.
> 
> To the other, it is THE MOST important way to *bond* to the other person, having sexual intimacy is FAR & ABOVE ANYTHING else in making the relationship stronger. Both feel they are the norm.


But just how STRONG is that "bond"? 

If sex is such a bonding experience then wouldn't we be bonded to the first person we have sex with, whether we're married or not? 

And if it's such a bonding experience, then why do so many people have affairs, even if they're having regular 'bonding' sex with their spouse?

How often do we hear of people having great sexual experiences WITHOUT 'bonding'?


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Vega said:


> But just how STRONG is that "bond"?
> 
> If sex is such a bonding experience then wouldn't we be bonded to the first person we have sex with, whether we're married or not?
> 
> And if it's such a bonding experience, then why do so many people have affairs, even if they're having regular 'bonding' sex with their spouse?
> 
> How often do we hear of people having great sexual experiences WITHOUT 'bonding'?


The people having the affairs are chasing the thrill of new conquests, and are not the type that bond all that well.

My wife's POS abusive high school bf was killed in a car accident after we were married. Even thou he raped & dumped her, she cried when she heard the news. He was her first, and even thou she said he was the biggest mistake of her life, it still upset her.

Everyone is different, I held off sex until I met my wife. I just felt inside that I didn't want that experience with anyone other than my wife. I had a gf in college dump me, as she wanted to f---, but she had shown signs that she probably was not the one for me, so I was more interested in seeing how relationship progressed without sexual involvement.

I don't know how someone can have a affair. Personally, I would not be able to look my spouse in the eye if I cheated on her.

Even when we had a long dry spell, and I had opportunity, I kept it in my pants. Not trying to be holier than thou, just stating I am not wired to cheat. I did get to the point of telling my wife that we either needed to start having a marriage with intimacy or we would have a divorce.

For those who have a great sexual experience without bonding, do we really know how they feel inside? After their F buddy has left the building, and they are laying there alone. Personally, I think I would feel lonely and detached.

We all are trying to make our way thru life, each of us trying different roads, and not understanding why/how people try different paths.

Not great answers, if I knew, I'd tell ya.

If I knew, I would have done things better in my own life!!!.


----------



## alexm

Red Sonja said:


> @Vega, perhaps you do not understand what sex means to others. I'll tell you what it means to me ...
> 
> Sex where there is mutual love is about pleasure, yes absolutely. However, it is also the ultimate in human connection. For me, connections to other human-beings are what life is about.
> 
> Not having that IS something worthy of regret.


This.

IMO, and my opinion only (which does not reflect the opinions of others), sex is vastly over-complicated by so many people in this day and age, particularly by women. Is that their fault? Not really, no. Everybody is warned and spoken to, and "educated" and generally made scared by sex, often at a young age.

This generally leads to one of two things. A person 'rebels' and has lots of sex, thereby making it somewhat meaningless and no big deal. When it comes time to settle down and perhaps get married, sex has lost a lot of its meaning and importance. "It's just sex".

Or, they become so scared of it that they make it a bigger deal than it should be.

That's not to say casual sex is a bad thing, but there are limits, IMO. Too much of anything will cause one to become desensitised.

Furthermore, women can (unfortunately) expect a fair amount of pressure when it comes to sex when single or dating. Once they find somebody they want to marry and settle down with, the expectation is that that pressure will go away. What many find is that it doesn't. We men DO put a lot of pressure on women, whether we mean to or not. For many of us, sex IS the ultimate way to give and receive love. Yes, love. It's very difficult to convey that to the women we love, often because of one of the two reasons I mentioned above.


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> Agree 100%. But I don't get the impression that (most) of the guys on here are against finding out what gives their wives pleasure; and then giving it to her.
> 
> I've always been for giving my husband as much sexual happiness as I can. He doesn't feel that for me as much. It's become evident over the last few years.
> 
> He's not totally unwilling to help me out; but he's not going to do anything that takes too much effort.
> 
> 
> So maybe the problem isn't that "you suck in bed, that's why your wife won't [whatever]"
> 
> Maybe the wife does have an agenda. Maybe there is a power play. Maybe not. But it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> =====================================
> **As always, we're not talking about doing things that are physically damaging or that involve bringing third parties into the marriage.


in these relationships, the lack of sex is really only a problem for the partner who really wants it.

the LD generally does not know why she feels the way she feels and is not motivated to figure it out because it is not a problem she really wants to solve.


----------



## Anon1111

anonmd said:


> Now, come on here. There is a whole industry worth of psychobable books explaining that the reason your wife doesn't want to have sex is everything BUT the sex. Can't have it both ways.
> 
> And btw,often times she can't have an orgasm unless she wants to and allows herself.
> 
> As far as the last paragraph goes, I'd say certainly some women feel that way. Not all, probably not even half in a LTR, but my sample size is limited so what do I know.


all of the psychobabble books are totally wrong

it's just like all of the millions of books theorizing on weight loss

people look for more complicated explanations when the simple explanations aren't satisfying.


----------



## Anon1111

Catherine602 said:


> I understand @anonmd, not all women respond positively to their husbands desire to have mutually satisfying sex. Most don't know anything about the true inner life of men.
> 
> I wish I had a solution. Books and reading post from men helped me to accept my husbands maleness. I won't say I always understand because many things I just can't but I respect that it is true. I find that he is more accepting of some of the things he cannot understand about me.


great post.

I think this is a huge insight. so much trouble comes from assuming the other person SHOULD think a certain way

it is so much more productive to realize they simply are who they are and to deal with them accordingly


----------



## Anon1111

anonmd said:


> Sounds delightful
> 
> The latest 'solution' is brutal honesty and giving her total control.
> 
> Seems she is incapable of a spontaneous sexual thought, she admits it after I put that in writing and gave her a day to ponder before we talked, so any effort at promoting such thoughts on my part is pointless. The brutal honesty part is making it perfectly clear just how crappy her default of once or perhaps twice a month is.
> 
> So, I've defined tolerable and she seems to be working within that lately. She will even bring it up towards the end of the acceptable gap and make a promise for later in the day if we've slipped past her normal time slot, that's a pleasant change.
> 
> We'll see if it lasts. We've been wrestling with this for 4 or 5 years now, although the total length of the problem is multiples of that. There have been periods of improvement that faded, and the final onset of menopause mixed in has not helped either. Sometimes I think I should have been more of an assho1e earlier on.


you're not being an @ss, you're just being a normal man.

no normal man would expend much effort on a woman who shows as little interest in you as she does.

cut out the emotional aspect from it and just treat it as cause and effect.

if you give her anything, it is purely by choice for you. you are not in a mutually satisfying relationship, so anything you do for her is a pure gift. 

that means that if at any time it does not feel good to do something for her, you don't need to do it.

again, there is no emotional aspect to this-- these are just the terms of the relationship that she has established.


----------



## Anon1111

uhtred said:


> My life has been very good. My marriage has been very good, but one thing that I really regret is that I didn't understand the importance of a good sex life early on.


I seriously doubt your marriage has been very good if your sex life is so bad.

perhaps you don't believe you deserve more.


----------



## uhtred

The non sexual parts of my marriage are very good. We enjoy a lot of the same things, share a lot of quirky interests. We trust and love each other. 

Deserve is a funny question. In one sense, yes, I deserve a better sex life because I am caring lover who enjoys giving women pleasure. In another sense, I'm incredibly lucky with the rest of my life, far more than I deserve. On balance I'm still really lucky. 




Anon1111 said:


> I seriously doubt your marriage has been very good if your sex life is so bad.
> 
> perhaps you don't believe you deserve more.


----------



## Anon1111

uhtred said:


> The non sexual parts of my marriage are very good. We enjoy a lot of the same things, share a lot of quirky interests. We trust and love each other.
> 
> Deserve is a funny question. In one sense, yes, I deserve a better sex life because I am caring lover who enjoys giving women pleasure. In another sense, I'm incredibly lucky with the rest of my life, far more than I deserve. On balance I'm still really lucky.


OK, so you are friends with your wife. That is nice. You could be friends and not be married.

Maybe "deserve" is the wrong word. 

maybe a better way to ask the question is: 

why are you willing to accept that this basic relationship component should not be met?

why do you think you must give up a satisfying sex life in order to maintain some friendship with your wife?

couldn't you not be married to her, still be friends, and have an actual romantic relationship with someone else?


----------



## Married&Confused

Vega said:


> But just how STRONG is that "bond"?
> 
> If sex is such a bonding experience then wouldn't we be bonded to the first person we have sex with, whether we're married or not?
> 
> And if it's such a bonding experience, then why do so many people have affairs, even if they're having regular 'bonding' sex with their spouse?
> 
> How often do we hear of people having great sexual experiences WITHOUT 'bonding'?


i think the difference is that guys can see sex as both a bonding experience when done with someone they love, and as just an enjoyable experience with a casual partner.

holding hands walking down the street with someone you love can be a bonding experience yet walking down the street holding my daughter's hand so she doesn't run out in traffic isn't a bonding experience.

i love watching football a lot. just becasue the patriots have a bye week doesn't mean i won't enjoy watching football that weekend. same experiences for different reasons.


----------



## uhtred

I spend maybe an hour or two a week with good friends. I spend most of my awake non-work time with my wife. Being friends and being married without sex are very different. 

She would certainly not accept living together while I was having sex with someone else, and it really won't work for me either - I'm not psychologically wired for open relationships.

I accept that it cannot be met because after many years I am convinced that an active sex life with my wife is simply not possible. My choice is to stay with her and have a very limited sex life, or to divorce her, and find someone else to have an active sex life. Unattractive options, but those are what I get. 

I suppose I could tell her "do X, Y, and Z at the following frequencies or I will divorce you", and it might work, but sex under threat is not at all appealing. 








Anon1111 said:


> OK, so you are friends with your wife. That is nice. You could be friends and not be married.
> 
> Maybe "deserve" is the wrong word.
> 
> maybe a better way to ask the question is:
> 
> why are you willing to accept that this basic relationship component should not be met?
> 
> why do you think you must give up a satisfying sex life in order to maintain some friendship with your wife?
> 
> couldn't you not be married to her, still be friends, and have an actual romantic relationship with someone else?


----------



## Anon1111

uhtred said:


> I spend maybe an hour or two a week with good friends. I spend most of my awake non-work time with my wife. Being friends and being married without sex are very different.
> 
> She would certainly not accept living together while I was having sex with someone else, and it really won't work for me either - I'm not psychologically wired for open relationships.
> 
> I accept that it cannot be met because after many years I am convinced that an active sex life with my wife is simply not possible. My choice is to stay with her and have a very limited sex life, or to divorce her, and find someone else to have an active sex life. Unattractive options, but those are what I get.
> 
> I suppose I could tell her "do X, Y, and Z at the following frequencies or I will divorce you", and it might work, but sex under threat is not at all appealing.


I'm saying divorce her, but be a good guy about it and let her know that you value her as a person and would like to remain friends, but that you can't tolerate living without this any longer. 

You can say you don't blame her, that it's nobody's fault and you still really like her and all of that, but that she clearly can't meet this need of yours and it won't go away. 

You'd like it to work with her, but it obviously doesn't and that is too bad. You'd like to preserve the good parts of your relationship but not pretend it's something it's not (i.e., an actual loving marriage).

My guess is that if you actually did this, you would discover pretty quickly that there are many, many women in the world who could be just as good of a friend to you as your wife, but who would also be interested in you sexually.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> I'm saying divorce her, but be a good guy about it and let her know that you value her as a person and would like to remain friends, but that you can't tolerate living without this any longer.
> 
> You can say you don't blame her, that it's nobody's fault and you still really like her and all of that, but that she clearly can't meet this need of yours and it won't go away.
> 
> You'd like it to work with her, but it obviously doesn't and that is too bad. You'd like to preserve the good parts of your relationship but not pretend it's something it's not (i.e., an actual loving marriage).
> 
> My guess is that if you actually did this, you would discover pretty quickly that there are many, many women in the world who could be just as good of a friend to you as your wife, but who would also be interested in you sexually.


Ha. Funny. I would say most people wouldn't be super thrilled to be involved in a romantic relationship with someone who had a really close friend of the opposite sex that they spent huge amounts of time with. 

I'd also venture that most people wouldn't be super thrilled to maintain a friendship with someone who's dumped them.

I do agree that it's possible to find someone who can be your everything at all times. But I think it's harder than you let on. Friendly people are easy to come by. Close friends, not so much.

Of course, if you care more about sex than close friend, then it's pretty easy to find someone to have sex with.


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Ha. Funny. I would say most people wouldn't be super thrilled to be involved in a romantic relationship with someone who had a really close friend of the opposite sex that they spent huge amounts of time with.
> 
> I'd also venture that most people wouldn't be super thrilled to maintain a friendship with someone who's dumped them.
> 
> I do agree that it's possible to find someone who can be your everything at all times. But I think it's harder than you let on.
> 
> Of course, if you care more about sex than close friend, then it's pretty easy to find someone to have sex with.


I agree, but this just shows what a one sided relationship it really is

if she is really his friend but just doesn't want to f- him, then she should have no problem with the proposal.

and if he met another woman, as I said above, he would quickly see he doesn't need to compromise in this way and would soon forget about this "friendship"


----------



## wild jade

Married&Confused said:


> i think the difference is that guys can see sex as both a bonding experience when done with someone they love, and as just an enjoyable experience with a casual partner.
> 
> holding hands walking down the street with someone you love can be a bonding experience yet walking down the street holding my daughter's hand so she doesn't run out in traffic isn't a bonding experience.
> 
> i love watching football a lot. just becasue the patriots have a bye week doesn't mean i won't enjoy watching football that weekend. same experiences for different reasons.


Women can also see sex as both a bonding experience and one that isn't. Just look at Vega's post vs some other women here.

Some don't bond with sex; some do. Sometimes it depends on circumstances and partners. 

I definitely agree that the bond that sex leads to (if there is one at all) is quite breakable, and it is dangerous to put too much stock into it.


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> I agree, but this just shows what a one sided relationship it really is
> 
> if she is really his friend but just doesn't want to f- him, then she should have no problem with the proposal.
> 
> and if he met another woman, as I said above, he would quickly see he doesn't need to compromise in this way and would soon forget about this "friendship"


Do you think so?

I find close friends very, very hard to come by. Maybe it's because I'm just that obnoxious, I don't know. But I treasure my friendships -- and couldn't just swap them out for someone else.

My husband is absolutely my best friend. No way I could replace that with just some guy who I had sex with. I'm not even sure I could find another guy I could live with, honestly. If my husband and I split up, I would probably just look for FWB and wouldn't ever expect to be able to substitute the friendship part.


----------



## Anon1111

wild jade said:


> Do you think so?
> 
> I find close friends very, very hard to come by. Maybe it's because I'm just that obnoxious, I don't know. But I treasure my friendships -- and couldn't just swap them out for someone else.
> 
> My husband is absolutely my best friend. No way I could replace that with just some guy who I had sex with. I'm not even sure I could find another guy I could live with, honestly. If my husband and I split up, I would probably just look for FWB and wouldn't ever expect to be able to substitute the friendship part.


I don't think any of this is very hard to come by

out of billions of people on the planet, this guy (or girl) is the ONLY one who is capable of really "getting you"?


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> I don't think any of this is very hard to come by
> 
> out of billions of people on the planet, this guy (or girl) is the ONLY one who is capable of really "getting you"?


In all fairness, we are only talking about people more immediately accessible to you which would be way way less then billions of people :grin2:

Otherwise, I do agree with you, and someone is not a best friend (within the context of a relationship) if sex is not part of it (unless the reason is health related).


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> In all fairness, we are only talking about people more immediately accessible to you which would be way way less then billions of people :grin2:
> 
> Otherwise, I do agree with you, and someone is not a best friend (within the context of a relationship) if sex is not part of it (unless the reason is health related).


fair enough, way less than billions practically, but still no shortage of opportunity.

the problem is that if you are in one of these situations, you internalize it and believe you have some problem, rather than that you happened to become paired with someone who turned out to not be super compatible.


----------



## EllisRedding

Anon1111 said:


> fair enough, way less than billions practically, but still no shortage of opportunity.
> 
> the problem is that if you are in one of these situations, you internalize it and believe you have some problem, rather than that you happened to become paired with someone who turned out to not be super compatible.


I think as well, the concept of "best friend" could be different when talking about a relationship vs. just solely a friendship. Is my W my best friend, undoubtedly yes. Would she be my best friend if we weren't married, no. Sex/intimacy is part of the whole package in our marriage that brings us together. You can clearly see this during the "sexless"periods where we were just not as close and acted more like roommates.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> the problem is that if you are in one of these situations, you internalize it and believe you have some problem, rather than that you happened to become paired with someone who turned out to not be super compatible.


Sometimes that is the case. But sometimes it is like the old saying about paranoia - just because you are paranoid does not necessarily mean that are NOT out to get you.

Sometimes people are reasonably OK, pick a poor partner, and start to think they have problems that do not actually exist. In that case, dumping the poor partner can bring about rapid and dramatic improvement in one's life.

Sometimes people with real problems pick a poor partner. They can dump the poor partner, but the pre-existing problems will still exist.

Sometimes people who know darn well they came into the marriage with major problems are understandably hesitant to dump the poor sap they convinced to marry them. It is not always the deprived HD who got the short end of the marriage "stick".


----------



## wild jade

Anon1111 said:


> I don't think any of this is very hard to come by
> 
> out of billions of people on the planet, this guy (or girl) is the ONLY one who is capable of really "getting you"?



All I know is that all of my exes wanted to change me into what they wanted, but my husband loves me for who I am, and we have a lot in common in terms of shared values, interests. 

I've never met anyone that I have as much in common with before, and would be surprised to do it again.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> All I know is that all of my exes wanted to change me into what they wanted, but my husband loves me for who I am, and we have a lot in common in terms of shared values, interests.
> 
> I've never met anyone that I have as much in common with before, and would be surprised to do it again.


Don't get me wrong, not saying there is anything wrong with your view. I think everyone has their own balance in what they need in a relationship. Some would be ok with a relationship that has all the other "best friend" qualities sans the sex, that balance works for them. Others may need a more balanced relationship. Some may wants things more skewed towards sex with teh other stuff meaning less. For me, if the sex/intimacy aspect of our relationship is devalued by my W, then that means our shared values are not necessarily as much in line as I had thought. There is no right answer, just what is best for each person in the relationship.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> Don't get me wrong, not saying there is anything wrong with your view. I think everyone has their own balance in what they need in a relationship. Some would be ok with a relationship that has all the other "best friend" qualities sans the sex, that balance works for them. Others may need a more balanced relationship. Some may wants things more skewed towards sex with teh other stuff meaning less. For me, if the sex/intimacy aspect of our relationship is devalued by my W, then that means our shared values are not necessarily as much in line as I had thought. There is no right answer, just what is best for each person in the relationship.


I agree. I wouldn't want a romantic relationship that didn't involve sex either.

I just don't think the other aspects of a relationship should be altogether discounted. It's tough to find someone who is genuinely on your side, who loves you for you, and who you can really and truly count on. There really aren't billions of people who can do this for you. You're lucky if you find just one.

I think this is what makes these decisions so hard. The odds of finding someone who can be your everything are practically nil. So the question is what's most important and what are you willing to live without.

Like I said earlier, I doubt I could ever find anyone as compatible as my husband again. So I would opt for a much more casual relationship for sex, and then have my best friends outside of that.


----------



## wild jade

Weird. I thought some posts were deleted, but they appear to be back now.

I would delete this, but I don't see how.


----------



## uhtred

My wife is not going to want to "be friends" if I tell her I want to sleep with other women. Also the number of other women who are interested in having sex with me while I'm married to someone else is not going to all that high either

I suspect there are many women who would have a sexual interest in me. The number of them who share my interests is not going to be that large. 

There is also the issue that it can take a long time to find out whether or not someone is compatible. 

It may be that I could find someone who shared both my discussion and sexual interests. But even if that were true, would you suggest that I divorce my wife? There was no bait / switch here. She never had much interest in sex, and I married her knowing that. I may have hoped that she would change, but she in no way promised to do so. 





Anon1111 said:


> I'm saying divorce her, but be a good guy about it and let her know that you value her as a person and would like to remain friends, but that you can't tolerate living without this any longer.
> 
> You can say you don't blame her, that it's nobody's fault and you still really like her and all of that, but that she clearly can't meet this need of yours and it won't go away.
> 
> You'd like it to work with her, but it obviously doesn't and that is too bad. You'd like to preserve the good parts of your relationship but not pretend it's something it's not (i.e., an actual loving marriage).
> 
> My guess is that if you actually did this, you would discover pretty quickly that there are many, many women in the world who could be just as good of a friend to you as your wife, but who would also be interested in you sexually.


----------



## Married but Happy

@uhtred, it seems you have made your choice knowing full well what you can expect. If status quo will do, then I think you can be happy even if things aren't ideal - as they say, happiness is a choice you make within (with the caveat that the external factors can't be actively negative). It's a trade-off, but one you are willing to make. I can understand and respect this, even if I would do differently. Good luck.


----------



## notmyrealname4

> Vega said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
> 
> 
> But you DID have a life PRIOR to having orgasms. However, once you started having them, does that mean that your life prior to having them SUCKED?
> 
> I dunno. I guess I just don't wrap ALL of my happiness up in ONE thing, nor am I determined to be miserable without it.
> 
> It's like, if I'm having orgasms, GREAT. But if I'm not, that doesn't mean that the rest of my life SUCKS, lol! My life is still GREAT whether I'm having them or not.
> 
> 
> 
> @Catherine602
> 
> The above is weird; somehow a quote that was Vega's, got attributed to my username???
> 
> 
> [email protected] jade;
> 
> A caveat. Despite what the forum guidelines still claim; you can't delete posts anymore, you can edit them though.
> 
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/342969-delete-option.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/2-posting-guidelines-forum-rules.html#post16294970
Click to expand...


----------



## Catherine602

Vega said:


> I have deeper connections to people who I DON'T have sex with.
> My children...my family...my extended family...my friends...
> 
> The people I did have sex with are no longer in my life so,
> how "deep" could _those_ connections have been?


It's not sad. 

There is a reason they are no longer in your life and it has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with who you pick and how you allow yourself to be treated. 

I may be wrong but I think you may be making a basic mistake about sex and men. Having fantastic, anything goes sex, does not make a man fall in love or stay in love. It does not make him give to you in equal measure. However, when a man falls in love, sex enhances the feelings of love. 

Your past relationships may have been based on physical attraction and a weak emotional attraction at the outset. Humans are lazy, if you give too much, they accept but don't appreciate it. I said it's not sad because you can fix it. 

Your picker is bent. When you are ready, date at lest 10 men. This will sharpen your BS detector and help you decide what you want. 

Don't have sex unless you feel an attraction and you have it for yourself not hoping they will like you. Only consider men with similar values, interests and who don't live with their mother. 

Don't have sex with creeps, men who are only interest in sticking it in or men you have a weak or no attraction. If you are looking for a long relationship, wait till you get to know them before sex. The men who are not strongly drawn to you will go away. 

I think you need to take sex out of the center of a relationship if you are looking for love and a real attachment. Make getting to know the person the center. Making sure that you are respected and that the person is worth the trouble. Dump men who fly red flags. Give only as much as you get. 

Don't be anxious to impress a man with your sexual prowess. Let him prove that he is worth the trouble by the way he treats you. Then slowly build up and do only what is mutually satisfying. If that makes a man go away then he had only a weak interest in you. Next.


----------



## Catherine602

notmyrealname4 said:


> @Catherine602
> 
> The above is weird; somehow a quote that was Vega's, got attributed to my username???
> 
> 
> [email protected] jade;
> 
> A caveat. Despite what the forum guidelines still claim; you can't delete posts anymore, you can edit them though.
> 
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/342969-delete-option.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/2-posting-guidelines-forum-rules.html#post16294970
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry NMRN I don't know how it happened. :scratchhead:
Click to expand...


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry NMRN I don't know how it happened. :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> No worries, just one of those weird things.
> 
> 
> I was reading the comment thinking, "huh, I don't remember saying that"
Click to expand...


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> It's not sad.
> 
> There is a reason they are no longer in your life and it has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with who you pick and how you allow yourself to be treated.


The point I was trying to make was that sex isn't THAT much of a bond, otherwise most of us would have stayed with the first person we had sex with. 

Most of us didn't. Including me. 

I DID feel some kind of 'attachment' initially, but that attachment lessened as I got to know them better. 



> I may be wrong but I think you may be making a basic mistake about sex and men. Having fantastic, anything goes sex, does not make a man fall in love or stay in love.


Never really had this. Sex usually came AFTER the 'falling in love' part. Silly me...



> It does not make him give to you in equal measure. However, when a man falls in love, sex enhances the feelings of love.


This I DO agree with, as it has been my experience as well. 



> Your past relationships may have been based on physical attraction and a weak emotional attraction at the outset. Humans are lazy, if you give too much, they accept but don't appreciate it. I said it's not sad because you can fix it.


I was never one to feel an initial _physical_ attraction to someone at the onset. My late husband was over 100 lbs. overweight when we started dating. It was his personality (initially) and his intellect that I was attracted to first. 

As for giving too much too soon, *raises hand* I'm guilty, as charged. It has always been my nature to 'help'; to be a 'doer'. I even asked one of my ex's WHY he didn't do some of the things that *I* ended up doing. He said, "When someone (me) does everything for you, you kind of get used to it." 



> Your picker is bent. When you are ready, date at lest 10 men. This will sharpen your BS detector and help you decide what you want.


LOL! _ONLY_ 10?! When I'm ready (not yet), I would want to date 10X10! As for knowing what I want (and don't want) believe me, as I sit on TAM each day, I've been taking notes! :smile2:



> Don't have sex unless you feel an attraction and you have it for yourself not hoping they will like you. *Consider men with similar values, interests *and who don't live with their mother.


I THOUGHT the men I had sex with DID have similar values to me. Most of them turned out to be 'chameleons'. 



> Don't have sex with creeps, men who are only interest in sticking it in or men you have a weak or no attraction. If you are looking for a long relationship, wait till you get to know them before sex. The men who are not strongly drawn to you will go away...
> 
> Making sure that you are respected and that the person is worth the trouble. Dump men who fly red flags. Give only as much as you get.


I THOUGHT I was doing this. I actually waited to have sex for 5 months. Even though there were 'red flags' waving wildly, I had no idea what they meant. NOW, I now better (only took 58 years, lol!)

I'm at the point where at the _FIRST_ sign of disrespect, I'm _outta_ there! No more second or 102nd chances. Oh, I understand that there _can_ be misunderstandings. Obviously, I would delve into what happened before making a rash decision. 



> I think you need to take sex out of the center of a relationship if you are looking for love and a real attachment. Make getting to know the person the center.


I did this. They didn't. That was the problem. 



> Don't be anxious to impress a man with your sexual prowess. *Let him prove that he is worth the trouble by the way he treats you. *
> 
> Then slowly build up and do only what is mutually satisfying. If that makes a man go away then he had only a weak interest in you. Next


LOL! Exactly! Yet you and I (and some others) know that for some, they would call it "making him 'jump through hoops'". 

And here lies the rub. If I want to get to know the man BEFORE having sex with him, I'm "making him wait". If I have sex "too soon", I "only have myself to blame". So many men and women want to know what sex is like before they try to really get to know the person, and many of them don't even want to BOTHER getting to know the person. It's like a catch-22; damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Today, I say, "To hell with those who damn!" I'm going to do what's best for ME, and if what *I* want is also what THEY want, it's a MATCH!

Thank you again, Catherine. Your words are always wise and welcome! :thumbup::toast:


----------



## Catherine602

I know about the hoop business. Men who don't appreciate that you are caring for and protecting yourself will grouse about hoops. 

They want to get to the goodies because they are not interested in letting you go at your own pace. If you want to be controlled, have your concert dismissed then continue in the relationship. If not, dump them and move on.

You picked men who were able to hide their defects. There are ways of detecting major defects. Did you notice the qualities of their relationships with relatives and friends, their parents relationship, childhood? You can't be fooled if you know what to look for or if you really want to see. 

I have a rule of thumb, the way a person treats people who don't matter to them, says a lot about them. Poor tipping, nastiness to stewardess, argumentative with store clerk, failure to yield to a driver trying to merge just to be mean, and chronically impatient or mean to children are all serious red flags.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> You picked men who were able to hide their defects. There are ways of detecting major defects. Did you notice the qualities of their relationships with relatives and friends, their parents relationship, childhood? You can't be fooled if you know what to look for or if you really want to see.
> 
> I have a rule of thumb, the way a person treats people who don't matter to them, says a lot about them. Poor tipping, nastiness to stewardess, argumentative with store clerk, failure to yield to a driver trying to merge just to be mean, and chronically impatient or mean to children are all serious red flags.


BINGO! Almost every man I was ever with exhibited MOST of the qualities you mentioned. For example: My first husband had NO friends. None. Nadda. Zilch. And although my late husband tipped _very_ well, he was argumentative with others and mean to children (among other things). And the last man I was 'with' claimed to be a 'nice guy', yet about _half_ of the people we worked with didn't like him (I later realized) because he was a chronic complainer and a gossip. Hmm...

The common theme I've been seeing is immaturity, arrogance and an overall negative spirit. 

It's one thing to have a bad day occasionally. But if there's a _pattern_ of 'bad days', well...


----------



## Personal

Vega said:


> BINGO! Almost every man I was ever with exhibited MOST of the qualities you mentioned. For example: My first husband had NO friends. None. Nadda. Zilch. And although my late husband tipped _very_ well, he was argumentative with others and mean to children (among other things). And the last man I was 'with' claimed to be a 'nice guy', yet about _half_ of the people we worked with didn't like him (I later realized) because he was a chronic complainer and a gossip. Hmm...
> 
> The common theme I've been seeing is immaturity, arrogance and an overall negative spirit.
> 
> It's one thing to have a bad day occasionally. But if there's a _pattern_ of 'bad days', well...



Why do you have a pattern of picking such partners?


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> The point I was trying to make was that sex isn't THAT much of a bond, otherwise most of us would have stayed with the first person we had sex with.


I don't necessarily agree with this. Yes, there is more to a bond then just sex, but sex could still be very important to a bond. Just b/c you didn't stay with the first person you had sex doesn't mean that the sex bond wasn't important.

Obviously everyone will differ in how they view sex in a relationship. Maybe those who have a more casual view of sex are able to separate the physical act from bonding, IDK. If sex wasn't that much of a bond though, many of us would have no problem going through a sexless relationship (unless the implication is that people don't like going through sexless relationships for purely selfish reasons which may be the case for some, but I would not make that general assumption).


----------



## alexm

Married&Confused said:


> i think the difference is that guys can see sex as both a bonding experience when done with someone they love, and as just an enjoyable experience with a casual partner.
> 
> holding hands walking down the street with someone you love can be a bonding experience yet walking down the street holding my daughter's hand so she doesn't run out in traffic isn't a bonding experience.
> 
> i love watching football a lot. just becasue the patriots have a bye week doesn't mean i won't enjoy watching football that weekend. same experiences for different reasons.


Personally, I think you bond with a sex partner, no matter how casual it is. Perhaps not a lifelong bond, but an "in the moment" bond for sure. From my POV, people have casual sex for reasons other than pure sex. It's self esteem, ego-driven, makes you feel good that somebody wants you, etc. If it was simply about having an orgasm, people wouldn't spend the time they do trying to have sex.

However, this goes hand-in-hand with my previous post, in that the more you do it, the less it means, and you can most definitely get to a point of having no bond whatsoever with a sex partner. IMO, it's at this point that one has crossed that line into seeing sex as just sex.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Catherine602 said:


> I have a rule of thumb, the way a person treats people who don't matter to them, says a lot about them. Poor tipping, nastiness to stewardess, argumentative with store clerk, failure to yield to a driver trying to merge just to be mean, and chronically impatient or mean to children are all serious red flags.


 . . .and how they treat animals and frail elderly people.


----------



## joannacroc

OK, here is a pretty clumsy metaphor but here goes my attempt to explain my POV: 

I have never tried chili. It might be interesting to see what it tastes like. I'm curious. I taste it. I don't like it. I don't particularly want to have chili again, but I'm not rabidly against it or anything. It was an interesting experience to taste chili. But I decide it's really not for me.

I meet a new...chef? They keep trying to get me to try their chili. I really don't want to hurt their feelings, but chili just isn't my thing. I don't like the way it tastes. Could I choke it down and pretend? Maybe. But would that really make them happy? A good chef would want people LOVE their chili? Because I tried chili once made by a different chef and didn't like it, that means I HAVE to have chili indefinitely for the rest of my life? 

Substitute chili for, I don't know, anal, whatever sex act your partner performed for a previous partner and doesn't want to do with you. I've experienced things with previous partners that I may have thought were OK, or meh at the time, but I really don't want to particularly experience them again. If a partner tried to pressure me to perform a particular act because I did so for a previous partner, they wouldn't remain a partner for long.


----------



## EllisRedding

joannacroc said:


> OK, here is a pretty clumsy metaphor but here goes my attempt to explain my POV:
> 
> I have never tried chili. It might be interesting to see what it tastes like. I'm curious. I taste it. I don't like it. I don't particularly want to have chili again, but I'm not rabidly against it or anything. It was an interesting experience to taste chili. But I decide it's really not for me.
> 
> I meet a new...chef? They keep trying to get me to try their chili. I really don't want to hurt their feelings, but chili just isn't my thing. I don't like the way it tastes. Could I choke it down and pretend? Maybe. But would that really make them happy? A good chef would want people LOVE their chili? Because I tried chili once made by a different chef and didn't like it, that means I HAVE to have chili indefinitely for the rest of my life?
> 
> Substitute chili for, I don't know, anal, whatever sex act your partner performed for a previous partner and doesn't want to do with you. I've experienced things with previous partners that I may have thought were OK, or meh at the time, but I really don't want to particularly experience them again. If a partner tried to pressure me to perform a particular act because I did so for a previous partner, they wouldn't remain a partner for long.


Well, you know the saying "I like my chili like my anal, hot & spicy!" >


----------



## notmyrealname4

nogutsnoglory said:


> . . . . .
> 
> *I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.*
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. *Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.
> *
> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing* I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), *and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.
> 
> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.




@joannacroc

I posted most of the OP above.

I bolded a couple of statements.

The original premise of the thread, was that the wife enjoyed these "acts"

She was a "wild party girl" enjoying giving these "gifts" to men in her past.

So, in your analogy, it would be like her eating chili from quite a few different chefs; enjoying them quite a bit........

then deciding she didn't wanna bother even trying her husbands chili.

At least, I think that's the comparison :nerd:


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> Well, you know the saying "I like my chili like my anal, hot & spicy!" >


----------



## Vega

alexm said:


> However, this goes hand-in-hand with my previous post, in that *the more you do it, the less it means,* and you can most definitely get to a point of having no bond whatsoever with a sex partner. IMO, it's at this point that one has crossed that line into seeing sex as just sex.


Perhaps what I bolded is another reason why someone can become LD? 

I've tried to draw the analogy between sex and sushi. I absolutely LOVE sushi. But I wouldn't want to eat it every day, several times a day. Eating it that much would take away the novelty, turn it into a routine, and I would get _bored_ with it. 



> If it was simply about having an orgasm, people wouldn't spend the time they do trying to have sex


I was thinking about this this morning, Alexm. Between what you wrote here and what Badsanta wrote in one of his recent threads, it made me wonder about something...

When my late husband and I had a fight, he would want sex fairly quickly in order to 'make up'. Yet, sex would be the FURTHEST thing from my mind. He was very controlling and yes, verbally abusive. 

What I learned about sex and the abusive man is that they often want sex after a blow up because they want to feel _validated_. Their thinking goes something like, "If she has sex with me, I'll know that what I did/said wasn't so bad...and that she _accepts_ my treatment of her. She accepts _all_ of me (my penis, too), no matter how I treat her. If she accepts me, that means I'm O.K. in the world!" 

Now, I'm not saying that either you or Badsanta are abusive, by any means. But can sex mean to some, TOTAL _ACCEPTANCE_? Kind of like saying, "If you accept (receive) my penis, you accept ALL of me; all of my hopes, dreams, my 'dark side', my lies, my mistakes, my 'flaws'?


----------



## Anon1111

uhtred said:


> My wife is not going to want to "be friends" if I tell her I want to sleep with other women. Also the number of other women who are interested in having sex with me while I'm married to someone else is not going to all that high either
> 
> I suspect there are many women who would have a sexual interest in me. The number of them who share my interests is not going to be that large.
> 
> There is also the issue that it can take a long time to find out whether or not someone is compatible.
> 
> It may be that I could find someone who shared both my discussion and sexual interests. But even if that were true, would you suggest that I divorce my wife? There was no bait / switch here. She never had much interest in sex, and I married her knowing that. I may have hoped that she would change, but she in no way promised to do so.


I'm not saying to cheat.

I am saying to divorce with a message of "no hard feelings."

If she is truly your friend, she should understand that it is unreasonable to expect you to suppress this need for a sexual connection for a lifetime.


----------



## Vega

joannacroc said:


> I've experienced things with previous partners that *I may have thought were OK, or meh* at the time, but I really don't want to particularly experience them again. .


The way you convey to a partner that "OK" or "meh" is important.
And likewise, the way the partner hears that "OK" or "meh" is also important. 

Seems that a number of people may _*say*_ something like, "It was Ok, I guess" (said with a shrug of the shoulders) but a partner *hears*, "Yeah! I REALLY, REALLY _*LOVED*_ IT!" 

For some, as long as we _don't_ say "I HATED it!", it means we _liked_ it. :surprise:


----------



## Vega

EllisRedding said:


> Well, you know the saying "I like my chili like my anal, hot & spicy!" >


Wait...you mean anal AFTER eating "hot and spicy" chili????

I'm getting a visual....

Oh, Ellis. It's waaaaaay to early for this! 0


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> Wait...you mean anal AFTER eating "hot and spicy" chili????
> 
> I'm getting a visual....
> 
> Oh, Ellis. It's waaaaaay to early for this! 0


Well, technically all these young kids are supposedly into eating ass, so .... maybe the hot & spicy is during ...

Oh boy, don't know where we are going with this one, time to shut off the internet lol.


----------



## Vega

notmyrealname4 said:


> @joannacroc
> 
> I posted most of the OP above.
> 
> I bolded a couple of statements.
> 
> The original premise of the thread, was that the wife enjoyed these "acts"
> 
> She was a "wild party girl" enjoying giving these "gifts" to men in her past.
> 
> So, in your analogy, it would be like her eating chili from quite a few different chefs; enjoying them quite a bit........
> 
> then deciding she didn't wanna bother even trying her husbands chili.
> 
> At least, I think that's the comparison :nerd:


We only know she tried a threesome. We don't know how often she tried anal or bondage or _with how many partners_. 

She may have tried a threesome once with only one partner. She may have tried anal once with a different partner. 

And we don't know what her TRUE feelings were about the 'acts'. All we have is the OP's _interpretation_. 

Personally, I don't find the OP to be very reliable. He started this thread by saying it was about his EGO, and that it wasn't about the 'act'. Later on in the thread, he revealed that it WAS about the act. 

Hmm...


----------



## notmyrealname4

Vega,

Oh, I see. Well, I admit I only reread the first page or so of comments.

I just thought I would check in again at the "base camp" of the thread, so-to-speak.

Yeah, it really is about enjoyment to me. If something *was enjoyable* "back then"; if you made the effort "for him/her", it doesn't make a lot of sense to withhold the effort for your lifelong marriage partner.

Physical pain, or a moral change (if you converted to a religion, a threesome would be out of the picture, as an example)-----those would be circumstances where "never doing that again" would make sense.

And your spouse should honor and agree with the above.

I guess I have to agree though, (partly from my own experiences) that getting the crumbs under the table, when you know someone else got to have a feast; can be very hard to live with.


----------



## Vega

Personal said:


> Why do you have a pattern of picking such partners?


1. Didn't know what the 'red flags' were or what they meant...
2. Was too 'forgiving' and believed that 'forgiveness' meant that I had to resume the relationship...
3. Some of the partners hid good chunks of their personality until after we were 'committed'...

To name a few...


----------



## anonmd

Vega said:


> What I learned about sex and the abusive man is that they often want sex after a blow up because they want to feel _validated_. Their thinking goes something like, "If she has sex with me, I'll know that what I did/said wasn't so bad...and that she _accepts_ my treatment of her. She accepts _all_ of me (my penis, too), no matter how I treat her. If she accepts me, that means I'm O.K. in the world!"
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that either you or Badsanta are abusive, by any means. But can sex mean to some, TOTAL _ACCEPTANCE_? Kind of like saying, "If you accept (receive) my penis, you accept ALL of me; all of my hopes, dreams, my 'dark side', my lies, my mistakes, my 'flaws'?


I'd say men in general, not just abusive men, would like to have sex after an argument to signal the end of conflict. We do like to 'fix' problems you know? 

TOTAL _ACCEPTANCE_? Maybe, seems a little dramatic but maybe not. I'd proffer there are men, and then there are men with broken abusive characteristics ladled on top but the opposite of an abusive man is still a man not a woman...


----------



## larry.gray

Vega said:


> Personally, I don't find the OP to be very reliable. He started this thread by saying it was about his EGO, and that it wasn't about the 'act'. Later on in the thread, he revealed that it WAS about the act.
> 
> Hmm...


Wait, what?? You're bringing up the OP? I thought he was long gone and the thread hasn't been about him un 5 dozen pages.


----------



## Good Guy

Vega,

I get now why you are so negative against men. Your late husband was very controlling, and you project that on to all men. My wife is like that too, or she was until I finally asserted myself and told her I didn't care what she did or didn't do, she was free to do whatever she wanted, but if she wasn't prepared to do certain things, I would find someone else who was, or live on my own. Basically I did a 180 before I even knew what that was.

Some men are not like this, believe it or not.

I am now living with a different wife - same woman but completely transformed from the lazy, whining, sex denying, flirting with other men and always "sick" and "tired" ***** she previously was to a woman who craves sex with me and can't do enough for me. For now I'm pretty happy, but still resent her for how she tortured me emotionally for years - and I let her. In this kind of relationship it's a co-dependency - an abuser needs someone to abuse. Funny thing is, now women flirt with ME even in front of her - and now I'm not at all as excited at the prospect of sex with her anymore as I was before - weird how that works ! Yeah I'm not 100% in the marriage anymore, I know.

And sex IS emotional for a man, at least for me - if a woman you supposedly love won't have sex with you, or acts that she loved doing with other men, you can't care about her as a life partner. As simple as that. She should be prepared to do MORE for you than some guy she met in a bar. That's what the man should do after all - commit 100% to the marriage. That's why for me, the OP's situation is the worst possible one.

I mistakenly thought treating a woman well meant they would return the favour - in my case at least, the opposite was true.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Vega said:


> Personally, I don't find the OP to be very reliable. He started this thread by saying it was about his EGO, and that it wasn't about the 'act'. Later on in the thread, he revealed that it WAS about the act.
> 
> Hmm...


Any way you (rhetorical) slice it, it comes down to this. She does not want to do it with you. What are you going to do with that information? You want her to feel like you are best she has ever had where the yard stick is sex acts. No matter that that is not her yard stick. Or maybe you aren't she has ever had. You may want to FEEL that you are, but if you aren't, you aren't. So does SHE do something to appease you? Oh baby. Done yet? How does that help. Do you get butt hurt and whine and moan. Super sexy!

Either way. She does not want to do it with you. That's a fact.


----------



## uhtred

The thing is, sex really is not the only important thing. It is one very important thing, and I am unhappy with its loss. But if I divorced I would be giving up a number of other important things. 

Would I find someone who overall made me as happy? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of couples who are unhappy for reasons that have nothing to do with sex? How many women will I find who don't want children, think Magneto is a great super-villain, consider high strain-rate failure of materials to be dinner table conversation and laugh at my jokes (at least the first dozen times I tell them).

Even if I did find someone like that, I love my wife, and under no conditions would I want to make her unhappy.





Anon1111 said:


> I'm not saying to cheat.
> 
> I am saying to divorce with a message of "no hard feelings."
> 
> If she is truly your friend, she should understand that it is unreasonable to expect you to suppress this need for a sexual connection for a lifetime.


----------



## uhtred

I think a lot has to do with how people view sex.

There are a range of sex acts that I consider OK. I don't hate them. I would be happy to to them with someone who enjoyed them. 

Maybe we need a sort of numerical description:

0: never want to do it
1: Dislike it, but willing to do it to make my partner happy
2: Happy to do it, but doesn't do much for me
3: Actively enjoy it but can live without it
4: Really enjoy and don't want to do without
5: Really need this to be happy




Vega said:


> The way you convey to a partner that "OK" or "meh" is important.
> And likewise, the way the partner hears that "OK" or "meh" is also important.
> 
> Seems that a number of people may _*say*_ something like, "It was Ok, I guess" (said with a shrug of the shoulders) but a partner *hears*, "Yeah! I REALLY, REALLY _*LOVED*_ IT!"
> 
> For some, as long as we _don't_ say "I HATED it!", it means we _liked_ it. :surprise:


----------



## Anon1111

uhtred said:


> The thing is, sex really is not the only important thing. It is one very important thing, and I am unhappy with its loss. But if I divorced I would be giving up a number of other important things.
> 
> Would I find someone who overall made me as happy? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of couples who are unhappy for reasons that have nothing to do with sex? How many women will I find who don't want children, think Magneto is a great super-villain, consider high strain-rate failure of materials to be dinner table conversation and laugh at my jokes (at least the first dozen times I tell them).
> 
> Even if I did find someone like that, I love my wife, and under no conditions would I want to make her unhappy.


OK, I get what you're saying.

You sound like you are willingly making this trade, so that's the important thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I think a lot has to do with how people view sex.
> 
> There are a range of sex acts that I consider OK. I don't hate them. I would be happy to to them with someone who enjoyed them.
> 
> Maybe we need a sort of numerical description:
> 
> 0: never want to do it
> 1: Dislike it, but willing to do it to make my partner happy
> 2: Happy to do it, but doesn't do much for me
> 3: Actively enjoy it but can live without it
> 4: Really enjoy and don't want to do without
> 5: Really need this to be happy


If it really IS about ego, about wanting to be the best, then using acts as the measuring device is more likely to squelch this feeling. I had an ex who claimed that was what he wanted. But he never seemed to care about how *I* felt about it. If he wanted to be MY best, shouldn't his making ME feel good have some play? 

If someone really needs a specific act to be performed to be happy, they should

- honestly get their mental state checked.
- find a person who shares that view.


----------



## uhtred

I don't think wanting specific acts is that uncommon. There are a lot of people who would not be happy without intercourse or kissing. 

Otherwise though I agree that using sex as a measuring device is bad, and not caring for your partners pleasure is bad.






NobodySpecial said:


> If it really IS about ego, about wanting to be the best, then using acts as the measuring device is more likely to squelch this feeling. I had an ex who claimed that was what he wanted. But he never seemed to care about how *I* felt about it. If he wanted to be MY best, shouldn't his making ME feel good have some play?
> 
> If someone really needs a specific act to be performed to be happy, they should
> 
> - honestly get their mental state checked.
> - find a person who shares that view.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I don't think wanting specific acts is that uncommon. There are a lot of people who would not be happy without intercourse or kissing.


The thread is about specific ACTS not the concept of a good sex life. When analyzed to the degree this topic has been, people list out acts as NEEDS to be happy. I maintain that if one NEEDS anal, snowballs, threesomes, to be happy in a full, loving relationship, they are either delusional about the full, loving part, or they are messed in the head.



> Otherwise though I agree that using sex as a measuring device is bad, and not caring for your partners pleasure is bad.


I did not say SEX, I said ACTS. Not caring about your partner's pleasure IS bad. And one way to ensure that lack of that caring is to insist on measuring that caring with acts rather than with the mutual reciprocity of pleasure.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> *The thread is about specific ACTS not the concept of a good sex life. *


Sort of, that is how this thread started but there have been quite a few tangents since then.


----------



## Anon1111

it shouldn't be a big deal either way

short of physical pain, it shouldn't be a big deal to do it and it shouldn't be a big deal to get it or not get it

if it's a big deal to do it or not do it or to give it or get it for either person, then there is a bigger issue.

nobody owes you sex and nobody owes you love or a relationship either.


----------



## Scannerguard

I haven't read this thread by any means, but it seems to wear on. 

Don't you also think that aging has something to do with it?

I mean, ask me who was my best and well, it really depends. . .I remember when I was in my 20's and it was like I could orgasm every time the wind blows. . .well, by THAT metric, my ex-wife was. . .but she became frigid as the years wore on, no need for that backstory here. But if a woman is expecting that now, at 47, she's going to be sorely disappointed to lose that FAUX competition.

Every partner I have had, which isn't that many, has been a good lover in their own right, I suppose superseding the previous one. . .but yeah, well, I can see with most men certain "acts" are really gold. I guess it's a sign of submission.

I am trying to remember this as I enter a new relationship here as I have someone who wants/likes to do everything (and I mean everything) and how that is gold for so many men. Ironically, it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. . .isn't that funny?

I am more PLAYFUL in bed vs. SERIOUS and PERFORMING. And I am only slightly dominant so taking turns is my usual game. This is by the personality test at the dating site I was one - slightly dominant. I imagine men who make this an issue are moderately or very dominant.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Scannerguard said:


> I haven't read this thread by any means, but it seems to wear on.
> 
> Don't you also think that aging has something to do with it?
> 
> I mean, ask me who was my best and well, it really depends. . .I remember when I was in my 20's and it was like I could orgasm every time the wind blows. . .well, by THAT metric, my ex-wife was. . .but she became frigid as the years wore on, no need for that backstory here. But if a woman is expecting that now, at 47, she's going to be sorely disappointed to lose that FAUX competition.


Over 20 years in I can honestly say my DH is the best I have ever had. I think it is because he recognizes that NRE is always going to more of an endorphin rush than same ol and sought to develop something MORE and something BETTER than included engaging the best sex organ of them all, the brain. What is easy when NRE is rushing through you is actually even BETTER when developed through the engagement of trust. 

I would bet a dollar, if she were here to comment her PoV, that your ex-wife did not just suddenly become frigid and the back story is more relevant than you know.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> Vega,
> 
> I get now why you are so negative against men. Your late husband was very controlling, and you project that on to all men. My wife is like that too, or she was until I finally asserted myself and told her I didn't care what she did or didn't do, she was free to do whatever she wanted, but if she wasn't prepared to do certain things, I would find someone else who was, or live on my own. Basically I did a 180 before I even knew what that was.
> 
> Some men are not like this, believe it or not.
> 
> I am now living with a different wife - same woman but completely transformed from the lazy, whining, sex denying, flirting with other men and always "sick" and "tired" ***** she previously was to a woman who craves sex with me and can't do enough for me. For now I'm pretty happy, but still resent her for how she tortured me emotionally for years - and I let her. In this kind of relationship it's a co-dependency - an abuser needs someone to abuse. Funny thing is, now women flirt with ME even in front of her - and now I'm not at all as excited at the prospect of sex with her anymore as I was before - weird how that works ! Yeah I'm not 100% in the marriage anymore, I know.
> 
> And sex IS emotional for a man, at least for me - if a woman you supposedly love won't have sex with you, or acts that she loved doing with other men, you can't care about her as a life partner. As simple as that. She should be prepared to do MORE for you than some guy she met in a bar. That's what the man should do after all - commit 100% to the marriage. That's why for me, the OP's situation is the worst possible one.
> 
> I mistakenly thought treating a woman well meant they would return the favour - in my case at least, the opposite was true.


*siiiiiiiiigh*

I am NOT negative and against MEN. I AM against immature, abusive, controlling, manipulative men. And I have said before SEVERAL TIMES, that I KNOW that not ALL men are like that. Not even thinking that MOST men are like that. Sheesh...

I have talked to death about my late husband pretty much wanted sex every days, several times a day. RARELY did he get turned down, but when he did, he was like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. Do I think that ALL men are like that? 

_Hell_ no! 



> I mistakenly thought treating a woman well meant they would return the favour - in my case at least, the opposite was true


Yeah, I used to think the same way. I have a tendency to 'naturally' do things for my partner. Again, rarely were my efforts reciprocated. 

So, I'm going to take Catherine's advice and MATCH 'his' efforts. If he stops making an effort, he's only got himself to blame. 

After all, he can't expect to get more than he gives.

Right?

I don't see that as hating on anyone. I see it as being _fair._


----------



## Vega

NobodySpecial said:


> If it really IS about ego, about wanting to be the best, then using acts as the measuring device is more likely to squelch this feeling. I had an ex who claimed that was what he wanted. But he never seemed to care about how *I* felt about it. *If he wanted to be MY best, shouldn't his making ME feel good have some play*?


Not if their ego is _immature_. 

Which is really what the problem is all about.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Vega said:


> Not if their ego is _immature_.
> 
> Which is really what the problem is all about.


THE most immature ego is that of a narcissist which I believe me ex is. Everything was All About Him.


----------



## Vega

uhtred said:


> I think a lot has to do with how people view sex.
> 
> There are a range of sex acts that I consider OK. I don't hate them. I would be happy to to them with someone who enjoyed them.


I think it has a lot more to do with how people view sex, men, women, marriage and themselves. 

There are both men and women out there in "MarriageLand" who believe that their partner "should" be willing to make ANY sacrifice for the other person, no matter what the cost to their own soul. Even if you HATE a certain sex act, you "should" not only grit your teeth and bear it, but you "should" be enthusiastic about doing it (even if you're faking it)

Yet, would most of us be as willing to do something enthusiastically for or with our partner, that we can not STAND to do? A lot of us would say, "Sure!"...

...until it comes time to actually _do_ it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Vega said:


> I think it has a lot more to do with how people view sex, men, women, marriage and themselves.
> 
> There are both men and women out there in "MarriageLand" who believe that their partner "should" be willing to make ANY sacrifice for the other person, no matter what the cost to their own soul.


*I* feel, for me, that I "should" try to do anything I CAN BECAUSE my husband never asked, never wanted, to have any cost to my soul. THAT is the difference between But you did it for HIIIIIM and genuine GGG.




> Even if you HATE a certain sex act, you "should" not only grit your teeth and bear it, but you "should" be enthusiastic about doing it (even if you're faking it)
> 
> Yet, would most of us be as willing to do something enthusiastically for or with our partner, that we can not STAND to do? A lot of us would say, "Sure!"...
> 
> ...until it comes time to actually _do_ it.


Yah but... sex... it is EVERYTHING.


----------



## EllisRedding

Ultimately, if you don't want to do something you shouldn't have to do it, I don't think anyone here is saying you should just grit your teeth and take it.

If my SO told me she was interested in anal butt I didn't want someone messing around with my poop chute, so be it, I shouldn't have to explain further (and vice versa lol). :moon:

However, I think you can at least understand why some would be bothered when they find out that their SO had a very "active" past sex life (which they acknowledge they enjoyed) yet show little interest in trying some of those things with you. Saying it was an experimental phase or that they have matured since can ring rather hollow. Where do you go from here though, IDK honestly as I have never had to deal with this. I would think best bet would be to open up the lines of communication, understand exactly what the hangups are, try to be as honest as possible.


----------



## Vega

EllisRedding said:


> Ultimately, if you don't want to do something you shouldn't have to do it, I don't think anyone here is saying you should just grit your teeth and take it.


Absolutely! And a _mature_ person would understand this and not push the issue. 

To me, the Golden Rule applies. It's about _empathy_. 

Can anyone put themselves in _her_ shoes for a moment? 

How do you think you would feel if you tried something waaaaay back when, and even though it was 'o.k.' back then, you wouldn't want to do it NOW?

How would you feel if your spouse tried to pressure you into doing something that you really DID NOT WANT TO DO? 

There are some people on this very thread who admitted that they did things in the past that they liked _at the time_, but that they wouldn't want to do NOW. So the OP's wife isn't in a minority. 

I wonder what the OP would do if he divorced his wife, and somehow discovered that she didn't share herself "that way" with anyone else_after_ him either...?


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> Can anyone put themselves in _her_ shoes for a moment?


Can't, wouldn't fit. I still remember the days growing up when I needed to run outside quickly and only my moms shoes were laying around, how stupid I looked lol :grin2: 



Vega said:


> Absolutely! And a _mature_ person would understand this and not push the issue.
> 
> To me, the Golden Rule applies. It's about _empathy_.
> 
> How do you think you would feel if you tried something waaaaay back when, and even though it was 'o.k.' back then, you wouldn't want to do it NOW?
> 
> How would you feel if your spouse tried to pressure you into doing something that you really DID NOT WANT TO DO?
> 
> There are some people on this very thread who admitted that they did things in the past that they liked _at the time_, but that they wouldn't want to do NOW. So the OP's wife isn't in a minority.
> 
> I wonder what the OP would do if he divorced his wife, and somehow discovered that she didn't share herself "that way" with anyone else_after_ him either...?


In terms of way back then vs now, it could be a matter of circumstance. For example, let's say your SO participated in a 3some back in the day, had a blast, but doesn't want to do it now simply b/c that would compromise their marriage. That makes perfect sense. Once again as well, no one should be forced to do what they don't want to do. In another example, let's say a guy used to love giving oral in past relationships but has no interest in with their current SO. That seems like something that would be a worthwhile discussion to understand exactly why the aversion.

What I am looking at is not the scenario where you are trying to pressure your SO, but just understanding why, as @notmyrealname4 put it "getting the crumbs under the table, when you know someone else got to have a feast; can be very hard to live with.". I know the easy answer is just to say "Suck it up, you ain't getting it so move on", but that isn't always the reality.


----------



## I Don't Know

Maybe this split isn't a gender issue. Maybe it's split along the lines of people who can't think of anything they did once and found to be ok that they wouldn't be willing to do today and people who can.

I can't think of anything I've done with someone else that I wouldn't at least try with my wife if she wanted to. But then my past sex life didn't include anything that would likely be painful for me or ruin my marriage. So I get that there are exceptions for people depending on prior experience.

I think the way a lot of us see this is...

I like Italian food. I eat at Italian places pretty often with a couple of previous girlfriends. Maybe there's one place, let's say Mario's, that's I'm particularly fond of. Those relationships don't work out. I meet my future wife who also likes Italian and suddenly I don't want to go eat Italian any more, and I'm surely not taking her to Mario's. My wife, and I'm talking about my actual wife not hypothetical wife, would think I was a) ashamed to take her there and/or b) think I had some special memory of eating at Mario's with Lois that I was trying to preserve.

It's a really stupid example but I think a lot of people would at least say, "why don't you want Italian anymore? You used to eat it all the time"


----------



## alexm

Vega said:


> Now, I'm not saying that either you or Badsanta are abusive, by any means. But can sex mean to some, TOTAL _ACCEPTANCE_? Kind of like saying, "If you accept (receive) my penis, you accept ALL of me; all of my hopes, dreams, my 'dark side', my lies, my mistakes, my 'flaws'?


It certainly can, and does, yes.

Though not abusive by any stretch of the imagination, I DO want validation and acceptance (just like any other normal human being), and yes, I can get that from sex (among other things, of course).

Conversely, when these needs are not met, it's a feeling of not being accepted. And that sucks. Even if I'm being accepted in other ways. Same difference if it's one of THOSE methods I am no longer being validated from.


----------



## I Don't Know

There's the big picture and the details. I think the reaction I have to this type of situation comes from a fear that although I know I'm her #1 choice overall, I might not be her #1 choice sexually. That's just not an area I want to be #2 in. The fear comes because there's no way to know for sure. Would anyone say "no you're not my best lover but you're good enough, and there's other things that you are the best at"?


----------



## Buddy400

Vega said:


> There are both men and women out there in "MarriageLand" who believe that their partner "should" be willing to make ANY sacrifice for the other person, no matter what the cost to their own soul. Even if you HATE a certain sex act, you "should" not only grit your teeth and bear it, but you "should" be enthusiastic about doing it (even if you're faking it)


It's been explained to you more times than I could count in this very thread that no one is asking anybody to perform a sex act that they HATE.

The way you keep up with this really makes me think that you either lack basic comprehension skills or that you are purposely trolling the issue.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> What I am looking at is not the scenario where you are trying to pressure your SO, but just understanding why, as @notmyrealname4 put it "getting the crumbs under the table, when you know someone else got to have a feast; can be very hard to live with.".


If I thought that after all the feast I have given him with my whole, entire life ANAL or some such was the "feast" I would likewise find that hard to live with.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Any way you (rhetorical) slice it, it comes down to this. She does not want to do it with you. What are you going to do with that information?


Leave


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Leave


I am so glad my husband did not make that choice! He could have. But then, I will grant that it was much easier being done in the earlier years of the marriage.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I am so glad my husband did not make that choice! He could have. But then, I will grant that it was much easier being done in the earlier years of the marriage.


It wouldn't be because of the sex (well, if it was something like oral, the sex aspect would be secondary).

It would be because I felt she didn't care as much about my happiness as she did for someone else's. No matter how much someone may think my feelings are off base, they're what I would experience.


----------



## Scannerguard

> and the back story is more relevant than you know.


NobodySpecial:

To THIS discussion, it is irrelevant, not to others. I wasn't easy to be married to, something I am at peace with and comfortable with, which is why I didn't go into it. If you are curious of the backstory, feel free to private message me but I just didn't want to bore the forum with that drama, that has come and gone.

I was just merely noting that my ex-wife, even though I orgasmed easily in my 20's, isn't the best I ever had and it's very difficult to make sex comparisons as time marches on.


----------



## bandit.45

If I was still married, and my wife cheated on me, and then refused to do certain sex acts with me that she did with the OM, one of my conditions for R would be that I would do something she has always wanted to do...without her. 

Always wanted to spend a week in a villa on Lake Cuomo? "Bye bye honey, see you in two weeks. I'll bring you back some nice pics of the lake and some Cotoletta all Milanese if I can get it past the airport security."

New engagement ring to replace your old one? " Aw shucks honey, I was on the way to the jewelers when I saw this badass Harley Road King and ...well..." 

Go on a cruise? "Bye sweetie. Se ya in a week. I'll pick you up an abalone shell in Cancun while I'm there."


----------



## NobodySpecial

Scannerguard said:


> NobodySpecial:
> 
> To THIS discussion, it is irrelevant, not to others.


I was suggesting that it IS relevant. When you are just having sex with your next date, it is easy. When you attempt a relationship, it is less easy. The backstory is ALWAYS important.

Feel free to share or not as you feel comfortable.

And be aware, if you don't learn to quote or mention, I will miss the vast majority of what you reply to.


----------



## Catherine602

EllisRedding said:


> Ultimately, if you don't want to do something you shouldn't have to do it, I don't think anyone here is saying you should just grit your teeth and take it.
> 
> If my SO told me she was interested in anal butt I didn't want someone messing around with my poop chute, so be it, I shouldn't have to explain further (and vice versa lol). :moon:
> 
> However, I think you can at least understand why some would be bothered when they find out that their SO had a very "active" past sex life (which they acknowledge they enjoyed) yet show little interest in trying some of those things with you. *Saying it was an experimental phase or that they have matured since can ring rather hollow*. Where do you go from here though, IDK honestly as I have never had to deal with this. I would think best bet would be to open up the lines of communication, understand exactly what the hangups are, try to be as honest as possible.


You could look at this from the other perspective. Exercising freedom of choice over what happens to oneself is a right everyone has. It is true before marriage as well as after for both men and women. 

A man may feel slighted if his wife exercises her right to choose but he is wrong. Persisting in the belief that she has no rights when it comes to sex causes unnecessary misery. 

It is much more consistent with natural laws that we accept that women have a choice and move on to making each other happy.


----------



## notmyrealname4

NobodySpecial said:


> I maintain that if one NEEDS . . . *snowballs,* . . . , to be happy in a full, loving relationship, . . . .


Had to look it up.


















^^^^It doesn't mean this.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I was suggesting that it IS relevant.


A. I thought I did quote
B. You may suggest anything. My backstory/marriage is not relevant to this discussion despite your suggestion.
C. I am comfortable sharing; I am not comfortable adding superfluous information to a thread that is pretty long as it stands. That's all.

I'll share when relevant. I'm a pretty open book. I just strive to not be a blowhard (sometimes fail).


----------



## Catherine602

It is much more adaptive to get out of the mindset of retrospective control. A sense of confidence and concentration on personal growth would clear the mind of a desire to control anyone. 

Experimental phases have a beginning and an end. The interval is up to the one experimenting to decide. What is retained or jettison afterwards is a personal decision. It may ring hollow to a future husband but then he does not control anyone but himself.

It seems so alien to me that there are people actually think that they have a right to direct what a person does in their past and present. I am certain the same people would strenuously object to such interference in their lives.


----------



## bandit.45

Catherine602 said:


> It is much more adaptive to get out of the mindset of retrospective control. A sense of confidence and concentration on personal growth would clear the mind of a desire to control anyone.
> 
> Experimental phases have a beginning and an end. The interval is up to the one experimenting to decide. What is retained or jettison afterwards is a personal decision. It may ring hollow to a future husband but then he does not control anyone but himself.
> 
> It seems so alien to me that there are people actually think that they have a right to direct what a person does in their past and present. I am certain the same people would strenuously object to such interference in their lives.


You are talking before marriage. 

How does what you say play into affairs that occur will after marriage?


----------



## wild jade

Catherine602 said:


> It is much more adaptive to get out of the mindset of retrospective control. A sense of confidence and concentration on personal growth would clear the mind of a desire to control anyone.
> 
> Experimental phases have a beginning and an end. The interval is up to the one experimenting to decide. What is retained or jettison afterwards is a personal decision. It may ring hollow to a future husband but then he does not control anyone but himself.
> 
> It seems so alien to me that there are people actually think that they have a right to direct what a person does in their past and present. I am certain the same people would strenuously object to such interference in their lives.


You've nailed it, IMHO.

If someone really is just giving you their crumbs and isn't all that into you, then I can see how that would be tough to live with, and it would be a decision of stay or go. And it would be go for me.

But most of this "I'm not #1 enough because my partner won't do x act with me" seems to me to be either very controlling, a way of extorting feelings to get what you want, or very insecure, finding ways to feel inadequate and then turning around and blaming that on someone else.

Or maybe a bit of both.


----------



## cknpro

My suggestion is simple. Forget all that crap. Get busy making your own memories with new things that doesn't involve anything from her past (or yours if possible) whatsoever. The male ego is not always a reasonable, intelligent, life giving entity. It can often be an illogical, selfish relationship killer. Why would you want to do anything that brings up the memory of some other johnson to your wife? Really? Be a little more resilient and creative dude. Me a little more of a man and not such a child. Take her to places and do things that obliterate those memories with those "boys" and make her appreciate the man she has now.


----------



## cknpro

cknpro said:


> My suggestion is simple. Forget all that crap. Get busy making your own memories with new things that doesn't involve anything from her past (or yours if possible) whatsoever. The male ego is not always a reasonable, intelligent, life giving entity. It can often be an illogical, selfish relationship killer. Why would you want to do anything that brings up the memory of some other johnson to your wife? Really? Be a little more resilient and creative dude. Me a little more of a man and not such a child. Take her to places and do things that obliterate those memories with those "boys" and make her appreciate the man she has now.




LOL, I just saw the age on this..... 

Well, I hope he grew up....


----------



## notmyrealname4

cknpro said:


> LOL, I just saw the age on this.....
> 
> Well, I hope he grew up....


This thread topic is one that is never going to lose relevance, or emotional power.

By all means, join us!!


----------



## I Don't Know

@wild jade, I can only speak for me, but that's not how I see it. I don't think it's about control as in I'm not trying to change the things done prior to us meeting or what she does now. I guess it could be insecurity, but then again if I can only afford a Corvette and you can afford a Ferrari is it insecurity to say "that person has more money than I do"?

Real world example. My wife doesn't do oral super often. She will do it if I tell her I want it and she does an outstanding job. But she's never just went for it out of the blue. Although I would love it if she did that once in a while, it's not something I just have to have to be satisfied. Now if somehow I found out that she used to do that with someone, how would I not feel like there was something about that guy that made her want to do that? Whether it was that she wanted to make him happy or that she just really felt the need to blow him or whatever. Either way it's something that she doesn't want to do with me. So in a way the reasons matter. If she did it of her own volition then I'd like to know why I don't evoke the same desire. If she was coerced somehow and never wanted to do that, that's fine. I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to. 

Even if all this happened I would never say you either start doing this for me too or it's over. That wouldn't do me any good because spontaneous BJ's aren't what I want. I want her to desire me. At this point I feel like she desires me and shows me that in the best way she can. New information may or may not change my view on that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Scannerguard said:


> A. I thought I did quote


You typed my handle. There is a button at the bottom of each post with the label "quote". When that buttons is used, an indicator appears in the "Your notifications" section at the top of the page.

Cheers!


----------



## notmyrealname4

I feel an impulse to [over]share here.

For the first 23 years of our relationship---that covers dating, living together, marriage---I accepted my H's PE.

He claimed it was physical. He tried thinking about unsexy things during sex(he hated it, I didn't blame him). We tried constantly stopping during sex (awful, I don't recommend it). We tried having sex twice or thrice the same day (maybe added a minute). Woman on top is supposedly less sensitive for the guy (maybe added a minute). We tried the thickest condoms (didn't do a thing). He said he tried kegels; if he did, it didn't make a difference either Etc. etc etc.

I would never blame, or hold a man responsible, for having a penis so sensitive that he blew just prior to entry, or 15 seconds after, or 2-3 minutes after. We're all put together a bit differently.

And I was crazy attracted to him in the beginning. And I have always been very attracted to him. Of course "crazy" wears off after a couple of years.

It was very, very sexually frustrating. I had to be very adaptable. I had to take a lot of responsibility for getting myself most of the way there. I actually managed to have PiV orgasms (rarely)---mindblowing, wonderful.


BUT, to have my husband tell me a few years ago, that with his last girlfriend he could go all night, has been something that I can't get over. I've worked so hard with him. I've told him how much I love it and need it. I can't explain how physically frustrating it can be. If you're a woman, you have to have had this experience for many YEARS in a committed relationship to understand. If you're a guy; I don't think you CAN understand.


Yes, I know. Maybe he's not that into me. I'm the marriage material. I'm emotionally attractive. I'm the port-in-the-storm type of woman. You can't expect to be everything to him. Get over yourself.

All these trenchant commentaries make perfect logical sense. They do not help or make the pain of not feeling worth the effort go away.

Should I divorce him over this? A divorce in my life would be a 9 on the Richter scale of life-shattering events. It would not be a year of sadness and disorientation.

Just trying to make this argument human again. It was starting to become an abstract debate about concepts.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> BUT, to have my husband tell me a few years ago, that with his last girlfriend he could go all night, has been something that I can't get over. I've worked so hard with him. I've told him how much I love it and need it. I can't explain how physically frustrating it can be. If you're a woman, you have to have had this experience for many YEARS in a committed relationship to understand. If you're a guy; I don't think you CAN understand.


Curious, how did this come up that your H felt the need to tell you this?


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> Curious, how did this come up that your H felt the need to tell you this?


I have no idea. Apropos of nothing.

But what a memory. I know exactly where we were. I can remember that it was around about dusk. I remember we were driving by a public swimming pool.

I remember feeling absolutely stunned. If you can imagine feeling dizzy while sitting down; that would about describe it.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> I have no idea. Apropos of nothing.
> 
> But what a memory. I know exactly where we were. I can remember that it was around about dusk. I remember we were driving by a public swimming pool.
> 
> I remember feeling absolutely stunned. If you can imagine feeling dizzy while sitting down; that would about describe it.


All the more reason I feel that past experiences should not be brought up in current relationships (unless specifically asked or it has some major significance). I can't see anything positive coming out of a statement like that from your H, even if it was made more out of frustration with himself.


----------



## cknpro

I would question the voracity of that statement. Maybe that's just how he "remembers it" out of his current frustration. Most of the time PE comes out of a state of over-stimulation, either physical or emotional. Neither of those should indicate any lacking in your part - quite the opposite. A man who struggles with PE saying he used to last forever with "the hot chick" <(your thoughts injected there) is likely stretching the truth at the least. 

It's not about you. When he said that he was most likely trying to defend himself to you, not attack you. Likely said out of a feeling of helplessness. I'm betting he would love to "last forever" for you, wishes he could. I suggest forget his insensitive remark and chalk it up as a thoughtless mistake. JMO


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> All the more reason I feel that past experiences should not be brought up in current relationships (unless specifically asked or it has some major significance). I can't see anything positive coming out of a statement like that from your H, even if it was made more out of frustration with himself.



*So, is ignorance bliss?* I can't tell?? Is it better to live with an acceptable lie  (this is how his body works, I can learn to work around it; mostly, not always).

Or live honestly with the facts. He has told me the new-sex-excitement wore off for him two weeks after the first time we had sex.

Long story short (too late), many comments over the years have revealed that I am NOT his physical ideal; not by a long shot----so it's not that he's uncontrollably overwhelmed with attraction, or anything like that.

So, some other reason. What *could* it be.....

The cat's out of the bag. 





cknpro said:


> I would question the voracity of that statement. Maybe that's just how he "remembers it" out of his current frustration. Most of the time PE comes out of a state of over-stimulation, either physical or emotional. Neither of those should indicate any lacking in your part - quite the opposite. A man who struggles with PE saying he used to last forever with "the hot chick" <(your thoughts injected there) is likely stretching the truth at the least.
> 
> It's not about you. When he said that he was most likely trying to defend himself to you, not attack you. Likely said out of a feeling of helplessness. I'm betting he would love to "last forever" for you, wishes he could. I suggest forget his insensitive remark and chalk it up as a thoughtless mistake. JMO



You are trying to comfort me. Thank-you.

Well, since then, I've certainly given it heaps of consideration (see above).

Ruling out new sex partner adrenaline, ruling out "this girl is so sexy"......what could it be?


My conclusion is that it is a form of hatred. A way to punish a woman for not being and doing what you want. He feels he settled; and he's angry. So, he gets his and I don't get mine.

Mind you, and this is an important distinction; it's a subconscious thing. Of course my husband "loves" me. But it is a love that comes from sharing 31 years of life together, and all the sh1t that comes your way during that amount of time.

We treat each other well. We have fun (not as much as we used to, but still often enough to make life enjoyable). We definitely support each other in this life.

I have come to believe that somewhere, deep down inside, my handsome husband feels very shortchanged in having me as a wife.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't mean to start a pity party for nmrn4. I just felt the thread was getting a bit "ivory tower", and needed to come back to earth a bit.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> *So, is ignorance bliss?* I can't tell?? Is it better to live with an acceptable lie  (this is how his body works, I can learn to work around it; mostly, not always).
> 
> Or live honestly with the facts. *He has told me the new-sex-excitement wore off for him two weeks after the first time we had sex.*
> 
> Long story short (too late), many comments over the years have revealed that I am NOT his physical ideal; not by a long shot----so it's not that he's uncontrollably overwhelmed with attraction, or anything like that.
> 
> So, some other reason. What *could* it be.....
> 
> The cat's out of the bag.


I think in your case your H could have brought up the topic in a more "favorable" manner by simply saying to the effect that he never had this issue before. Going a step further that he could go all night with his previous GF is what takes it over the top and makes it hurtful IMO, makes it seem like you are the problem (once again, whether that was his intention or not).

The bolded, don't really know what to say to that, how exactly can you process something like that 

You mentioned your H has made comments over the years, so basically he has adopted a passive aggressive approach to taking out his resentment (or regret) on you.


----------



## Anon1111

Buddy400 said:


> It wouldn't be because of the sex (well, if it was something like oral, the sex aspect would be secondary).
> 
> It would be because I felt she didn't care as much about my happiness as she did for someone else's. No matter how much someone may think my feelings are off base, they're what I would experience.


there's no intentionality

it's not a question of caring or not caring

it feels that way on the receiving end, but that's not what's in her head.

in her head she just wanted it with the other guy. it was about her, not him

she doesn't want it with you. again, about her, not you.

if there is an issue, it's that it's always about her, but good luck trying to fight that battle.


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> A divorce in my life would be a 9 on the Richter scale of life-shattering events. It would not be a year of sadness and disorientation.


let's say you woke up tomorrow and you were magically divorced.

you would just deal with it

the anticipation of it is probably worse than the reality


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> *I have come to believe that somewhere, deep down inside, my handsome husband feels very shortchanged in having me as a wife.
> QUOTE]
> 
> impossible to know if true
> 
> but let's assume it is
> 
> why does it matter?*


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I have come to believe that somewhere, deep down inside, my handsome husband feels very shortchanged in having me as a wife.
> QUOTE]
> 
> impossible to know if true
> 
> but let's assume it is
> 
> why does it matter?*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> I know that I have a deficit in terms of some of DH's emotional desires. I know I rock his world with straight up funkiness. I know I don't rock his world as it relates to sexual and non-sexual touchy feely stuff (I can't even describe it correctly I am so incapable of it).
> 
> He knows that he does not rock my world in many practical ways.
> 
> What do we do with this information? We recognize that no one can be everything to someone. We recognize that what we have, what we have chosen is pretty awesome. And we don't allow ourselves to get insecure over what we don't.*
Click to expand...


----------



## notmyrealname4

Anon1111 said:


> let's say you woke up tomorrow and you were magically divorced.
> 
> you would just deal with it
> 
> the anticipation of it is probably worse than the reality



But Anon, people don't wake up magically divorced. They have to wade through a trough or two of pure pigsh1t. And what I would "just deal with" would be overwhelming.

I'm not out to get d1cked by some other guy. That doesn't hold attraction for me. My husband has the power to hurt me because of my long term bond with him. He matters to me. I'm a bit embarrassed now to say that I am still so physically attracted to him. That's the truth.

If I advanced through the space time continuum and was magically divorced . . . is the start of a sci-fi novel, maybe a good one, I can't apply that to my life.





Anon1111 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I have come to believe that somewhere, deep down inside, my handsome husband feels very shortchanged in having me as a wife.
> QUOTE]
> 
> impossible to know if true
> 
> but let's assume it is
> 
> why does it matter?*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> I don't know how to answer that, it doesn't make any sense right now.
> 
> 
> Thanks [again] for trying to help me be more detached. When it comes to sex , that is very hard for me.*
Click to expand...


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> If I advanced through the space time continuum and was magically divorced . . . is the start of a sci-fi novel, maybe a good one, I can't apply that to my life.


I read this and my mind immediately raced towards Star Trek memes lol ...


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I read this and my mind immediately raced towards Star Trek memes lol ...




Captain Picard never really seemed comfortable vacationing on Risa.:nerd:


----------



## I Don't Know

Anon1111 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I have come to believe that somewhere, deep down inside, my handsome husband feels very shortchanged in having me as a wife.
> QUOTE]
> 
> impossible to know if true
> 
> but let's assume it is
> 
> why does it matter?*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Why would it not matter?*
Click to expand...


----------



## wild jade

NobodySpecial said:


> Anon1111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that I have a deficit in terms of some of DH's emotional desires. I know I rock his world with straight up funkiness. I know I don't rock his world as it relates to sexual and non-sexual touchy feely stuff (I can't even describe it correctly I am so incapable of it).
> 
> He knows that he does not rock my world in many practical ways.
> 
> What do we do with this information? We recognize that no one can be everything to someone. We recognize that what we have, what we have chosen is pretty awesome. And we don't allow ourselves to get insecure over what we don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, exactly. None of us are perfect, the be all to end all, number 1 in all areas. I have no shortage of deficits; my husband isn't perfect either. We are just regular folks and deal.
Click to expand...


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> Long story short (too late), many comments over the years have revealed that I am NOT his physical ideal; not by a long shot----so it's not that he's uncontrollably overwhelmed with attraction, or anything like that.
> 
> So, some other reason. What *could* it be.....
> 
> The cat's out of the bag.



Are you sure your most negative interpretation of what's going on is the correct one?

I feel for you, as it does sound very hard to deal with. But are you sure he's punishing you or showing his lack of attraction?


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> @wild jade, I can only speak for me, but that's not how I see it. I don't think it's about control as in I'm not trying to change the things done prior to us meeting or what she does now. I guess it could be insecurity, but then again if I can only afford a Corvette and you can afford a Ferrari is it insecurity to say "that person has more money than I do"?


It becomes insecurity when you start worrying about why I have a Ferrari and you have to settle for a Corvette. When you start thinking that because I have a Ferrari, you should also have one because you need to compete.

I noticed that your hurt about this issue is entirely based on a hypothetical. *If* you found out your wife truly loved to give oral to others. Worrying about these kinds of hypotheticals is just a way to drive yourself crazy ... and probably bring down others with you.


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> Are you sure your most negative interpretation of what's going on is the correct one?
> 
> *But are you sure he's punishing you or showing his lack of attraction?*


I think the two are probably wound together for him.


----------



## notmyrealname4

I've already shared a lot. I feel a bit naked now. So, I can't list all the details that would "prove" ?, that my husband doesn't find me especially attractive; but I wouldn't waste emotional energy on the premise, if I didn't have plenty of proof to justify the belief.

Suffice it to say, events in his early life resulted in him falling out of his social class, would be the best way to describe it. And I do feel for him; he took some knocks.

But having to struggle back up means that as a young guy, beautiful as he was, you've not got much money and you're trying to get confidence back.......

After backpacking around by himself for a few years, he was very lonely, and he met me, and I think I was some kind of sanctuary for him *emotionally*. And yes I'm sure it felt good to put his penis in a very receptive teenaged girl who was ga-ga about him.

But I know I'm not what he really wants. Not really.


There has been speculation that PE can be a result of a man's emotional state; it's not always strictly physical.

And there seems to be a reluctance to explore this possibility.

If we stick with the purely physical explanation, then women's egos are saved. It's not about me, it's him.

If we dare to explore the possibility that this could be an emotional issue, not a physical one, then women would be forced to consider that their husband doesn't like them all that much; on a subconscious level. The deep part of ourselves that must get expressed, one way or another.

If I thought he did this consciously, I don't know what I'd do.


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> It becomes insecurity when you start worrying about why I have a Ferrari and you have to settle for a Corvette. When you start thinking that because I have a Ferrari, you should also have one because you need to compete.
> 
> I noticed that your hurt about this issue is entirely based on a hypothetical. *If* you found out your wife truly loved to give oral to others. Worrying about these kinds of hypotheticals is just a way to drive yourself crazy ... and probably bring down others with you.


To go a little further just because I like typing Ferrari so much. 

Let's say we work for the same company. We do the same job but you make enough to afford the Ferrari and I don't. Even worse you show up only on payday and do only the jobs you want to and I'm there all day every day (FWB vs LTR) but for some reason the boss wants to pay you more. I think I'd be crazy to not try to find out why. If there's a reason and I'm ok with it, great. If it's just "IDK you're a better long term employee but I don't want to pay you that much." then why would I devote my life to this company?

BTW, I'm not saying I'm owed any sex act just because I married my wife or that if I do "this" I expect "that". I need my wife to be as sexually open and as sexual as she is capable of with me. If that's Corvette level, then that's what it is. If her max is Ferrari level and I'm only at Corvette level, I'm not ok with that and I wouldn't have accepted the full time position had I known that during the interview.


----------



## cknpro

If he doesn't like you, he'd have more trouble getting it up, keeping it up - not making it last.


----------



## Anon1111

notmyrealname4 said:


> But Anon, people don't wake up magically divorced. They have to wade through a trough or two of pure pigsh1t. And what I would "just deal with" would be overwhelming.
> 
> I'm not out to get d1cked by some other guy. That doesn't hold attraction for me. My husband has the power to hurt me because of my long term bond with him. He matters to me. I'm a bit embarrassed now to say that I am still so physically attracted to him. That's the truth.
> 
> If I advanced through the space time continuum and was magically divorced . . . is the start of a sci-fi novel, maybe a good one, I can't apply that to my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anon1111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how to answer that, it doesn't make any sense right now.
> 
> 
> Thanks [again] for trying to help me be more detached. When it comes to sex , that is very hard for me.
> 
> 
> 
> wading through the sh-t is dealing with it.
> 
> if you took the first step, you would take all of the other steps too.
> 
> look, I'm not trying to convince you to get divorced.
> 
> I'm just suggesting that you might have fear of the unknown, rather than reasonable fear.
> 
> You might have tunnel vision because you've been in this thing with this one guy for so long you can't really imagine how it could be different.
> 
> It can be.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anon1111

I Don't Know said:


> Anon1111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it not matter?
> 
> 
> 
> it would not matter if you did not allow it to have any importance to you.
> 
> the only reason this stuff does matter is because you make it important.
> 
> there are plenty of people who can't stand any one of us and it doesn't bother us at all.
> 
> then some people don't like us as much as we think they should and this devastates us.
> 
> the difference is within us.
Click to expand...


----------



## tripod

So I had the thought of starting a new thread, or adding to this. Frankly, I like the thought being put into answers by responders to this thread, so here goes: 
Stats first: (Second marriage. I'm 70, hale, lusty, fit--170 lbs, 5"10" 33 waist, 32 inseam, shaved bald, full beard. Gym 3x a week at a minimum. Alpha careers: military officer, university professor and executive administrator. Retired and now successful freelance writer and handle family investments. Wife: 60, 5', 150 lbs, Ph.d. in tech field, is away from home 2 weeks each month at isolated company location). Intellectually and avocationally we're a great match. When home wife is manic about home decorating projects. 

So, even at my advanced age and staring death in the face every morning, I'm still a horndog. I'm fit, on testosterone replacement and have an ample supply of pecker pills. 

Wife has always been if not a prude, at least a very shy person in bed. I remember our second date 10 years ago: I was loving her up and moving from the girls to the promised land. She grabbed my head, and pulled me ...UP saying "ewww....I don't like that." So...I love giving cunnilingus ...I was nicked named "lizard" at my college fraternity for my tongue prowess with the ladies...yes it got around. I like it and I like being able to pleasure a woman that way. BUT if no means no, then no it is...

Oh yes, the elephant in the drawing room is that dear wife drinks too much when she's home--one to two bottles of wine a night. 

So we had fallen into a medium routine of three to four times when she was home. I'm best in the morning. She's tipsy in the evening.

And the sex? That second time...I remarked about how sexy she was--appearance and attitude-- and then when we go to the bedroom, she was just uninvolved. And she replied, "Corpse sex?" Well, yeah that was it. Corpse, starfish, dead. My wife's favorite position is "corpse."

And, yet she says she gets off within 3-5 minutes of plain missionary saying, "I'm quick and easy." Knowing she's pleasured is the only thing that keeps me coming back. No she doesn't initiate...ever. 

So I could deal with that. Not like it but deal with it. 

And then 

She mentioned a former boy friend had been into B&D/S&M. WHOA! ****...she's never been any more adventursome than doggie with me and then she stopped because I hit her cervix. So, no oral for her and ewwww...no oral for me...nothing but missionary or her on top, no doggie, and please get everything over in 20 minutes. BUT YOU'LL DO S&M B&D WITH A FORMER BOY FRIEND. 

She said her libido left with menopause.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

notmyrealname4 said:


> I feel an impulse to [over]share here.
> 
> For the first 23 years of our relationship---that covers dating, living together, marriage---I accepted my H's PE.
> 
> He claimed it was physical. He tried thinking about unsexy things during sex(he hated it, I didn't blame him). We tried constantly stopping during sex (awful, I don't recommend it). We tried having sex twice or thrice the same day (maybe added a minute). Woman on top is supposedly less sensitive for the guy (maybe added a minute). We tried the thickest condoms (didn't do a thing). He said he tried kegels; if he did, it didn't make a difference either Etc. etc etc.
> 
> I would never blame, or hold a man responsible, for having a penis so sensitive that he blew just prior to entry, or 15 seconds after, or 2-3 minutes after. We're all put together a bit differently.
> 
> And I was crazy attracted to him in the beginning. And I have always been very attracted to him. Of course "crazy" wears off after a couple of years.
> 
> It was very, very sexually frustrating. I had to be very adaptable. I had to take a lot of responsibility for getting myself most of the way there. I actually managed to have PiV orgasms (rarely)---mindblowing, wonderful.
> 
> 
> BUT, to have my husband tell me a few years ago, that with his last girlfriend he could go all night, has been something that I can't get over. I've worked so hard with him. I've told him how much I love it and need it. I can't explain how physically frustrating it can be. If you're a woman, you have to have had this experience for many YEARS in a committed relationship to understand. If you're a guy; I don't think you CAN understand.
> 
> 
> Yes, I know. Maybe he's not that into me. I'm the marriage material. I'm emotionally attractive. I'm the port-in-the-storm type of woman. You can't expect to be everything to him. Get over yourself.
> 
> All these trenchant commentaries make perfect logical sense. They do not help or make the pain of not feeling worth the effort go away.
> 
> Should I divorce him over this? A divorce in my life would be a 9 on the Richter scale of life-shattering events. It would not be a year of sadness and disorientation.
> 
> Just trying to make this argument human again. It was starting to become an abstract debate about concepts.


if he wasn't as turned on, he could go longer, whereas you turn him on to the point of blowing early. Another way to think about it???


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> It becomes insecurity when you start worrying about why I have a Ferrari and you have to settle for a Corvette. When you start thinking that because I have a Ferrari, you should also have one because you need to compete.


We don't worry if -you- have a Ferrari, we wonder why you'd give the other guy a Ferrari and he's an arse that you'd didn't keep around.
While you still have "Ferrari giving power" but insist we only are worth a Corvette despite being the person who is still with you doing our best for you - if you say you truly care for us...then why do we not rank a Ferrari (which would cost you so little....)


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> It is much more adaptive to get out of the mindset of retrospective control. A sense of confidence and concentration on personal growth would clear the mind of a desire to control anyone.
> 
> Experimental phases have a beginning and an end. The interval is up to the one experimenting to decide. What is retained or jettison afterwards is a personal decision. It may ring hollow to a future husband but then he does not control anyone but himself.
> 
> It seems so alien to me that there are people actually think that they have a right to direct what a person does in their past and present. I am certain the same people would strenuously object to such interference in their lives.


Everyone has choices. A woman can choose to perform a sex act which she enjoys with someone else, she can choose to not perform that same sex act with me (who she claims to deeply love) and I can choose to be upset by that and question how much she truly loves me. 

Nobody's the boss of anybody. 

I can't tell she was wrong to do it and she can't tell me that I'm wrong to feel the way I do.


----------



## Buddy400

notmyrealname4 said:


> BUT, to have my husband tell me a few years ago, that with his last girlfriend he could go all night, has been something that I can't get over. I've worked so hard with him. I've told him how much I love it and need it. I can't explain how physically frustrating it can be. If you're a woman, you have to have had this experience for many YEARS in a committed relationship to understand. If you're a guy; I don't think you CAN understand.


My money is on it never happening and this is just his way of blaming you for his problem. Very mean.

Like a guy with ED saying it's because his SO did something wrong.


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> To go a little further just because I like typing Ferrari so much.
> 
> Let's say we work for the same company. We do the same job but you make enough to afford the Ferrari and I don't. Even worse you show up only on payday and do only the jobs you want to and I'm there all day every day (FWB vs LTR) but for some reason the boss wants to pay you more. I think I'd be crazy to not try to find out why. If there's a reason and I'm ok with it, great. If it's just "IDK you're a better long term employee but I don't want to pay you that much." then why would I devote my life to this company?
> 
> BTW, I'm not saying I'm owed any sex act just because I married my wife or that if I do "this" I expect "that". I need my wife to be as sexually open and as sexual as she is capable of with me. If that's Corvette level, then that's what it is. If her max is Ferrari level and I'm only at Corvette level, I'm not ok with that and I wouldn't have accepted the full time position had I known that during the interview.


I guess as a woman, who's completely used to the idea of having even less qualified people paid more than me and simply because I'm a woman, I look at this kind of scenario quite differently than you.

Life isn't fair and it's up to you to negotiate the best deal you can with the cards you were dealt. And look around, and you'll see just as many people (more I'm betting) who were dealt way worse cards than you, but instead you focus on those who have more and then worry about how hard done by you are. This is normal, we all do it. I do it too. But at some point, it's important to remember to have gratitude for all the things we do have, instead of making up scenarios about some past lover that didn't even exist and then feeling shortchanged because your wife might've had better sex with him. 

Everyone has their own story and their own needs. And these change over time. You think that because you are a Ferrari now, you will always be one? How will your wife feel if you start having ED or (god forbid) something goes wrong and you are delivering only hatchback quality sex. Should she divorce you over it? Should all your subsequent partners berate you for giving your ex wife your Ferrari, while they only get Corvette?


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> I've already shared a lot. I feel a bit naked now. So, I can't list all the details that would "prove" ?, that my husband doesn't find me especially attractive; but I wouldn't waste emotional energy on the premise, if I didn't have plenty of proof to justify the belief.
> 
> Suffice it to say, events in his early life resulted in him falling out of his social class, would be the best way to describe it. And I do feel for him; he took some knocks.
> 
> But having to struggle back up means that as a young guy, beautiful as he was, you've not got much money and you're trying to get confidence back.......
> 
> After backpacking around by himself for a few years, he was very lonely, and he met me, and I think I was some kind of sanctuary for him *emotionally*. And yes I'm sure it felt good to put his penis in a very receptive teenaged girl who was ga-ga about him.
> 
> But I know I'm not what he really wants. Not really.
> 
> 
> There has been speculation that PE can be a result of a man's emotional state; it's not always strictly physical.
> 
> And there seems to be a reluctance to explore this possibility.
> 
> If we stick with the purely physical explanation, then women's egos are saved. It's not about me, it's him.
> 
> If we dare to explore the possibility that this could be an emotional issue, not a physical one, then women would be forced to consider that their husband doesn't like them all that much; on a subconscious level. The deep part of ourselves that must get expressed, one way or another.
> 
> If I thought he did this consciously, I don't know what I'd do.


That's a sad story. 

It sounds like your husband is still caught up in the resentment of his early hard knocks. And I'm very sorry to hear that he is unable to look past his own should haves to properly appreciate the warm, generous woman who has given him so much, when it turns out that all of his should haves didn't even want him.

Honestly, though, I don't think you deserve the beating you're giving yourself. These are *his *problems, not yours. What he is holding onto is an illusion, and it's preventing him from making peace with his own life. And unfortunately, because you're standing by his side, you're getting dragged down with him.

At least that's my take. 

I hope he wakes up!


----------



## wild jade

spotthedeaddog said:


> We don't worry if -you- have a Ferrari, we wonder why you'd give the other guy a Ferrari and he's an arse that you'd didn't keep around.
> * While you still have "Ferrari giving power" but insist we only are worth a Corvette* despite being the person who is still with you doing our best for you - if you say you truly care for us...then why do we not rank a Ferrari (which would cost you so little....)


All I can say is that if this ever happens in real life, it is likely because the sex just isn't all that good.

People will enjoy things that feel good to them. And if it no longer feels good, then they'll stop doing it.

It's really that simple.


----------



## tripod

wild jade said:


> All I can say is that if this ever happens in real life, it is likely because the sex just isn't all that good.
> 
> People will enjoy things that feel good to them. And if it no longer feels good, then they'll stop doing it.
> 
> It's really that simple.


Nope. No. Niet. Nein. Non. Not my wife.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

tripod said:


> She said her libido left with menopause.



There's HRT for that


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> I guess as a woman, who's completely used to the idea of having even less qualified people paid more than me and simply because I'm a woman, I look at this kind of scenario quite differently than you.


wow snap - and here am I a guy that has to get used to the idea that less able women get paid more than me, get more readily hired, get more and better perks, and (as I just found out recently) special scholarships and internship offerings just for them because they're women.


----------



## tripod

spotthedeaddog said:


> There's HRT for that


Premarin...I know. She won't use it because its production involves abuse of horses.

And, she doesn't like the way it squishes...

And, there's cancer risk...

And, her back hurts

And, she's got a uti

And, she's tired

And, she's stressed

And, she's ....well, fill in the blanks.


----------



## Starstarfish

Okay, but @tripod, wasn't the writing kind of on the wall for this one? She was a "prude" early in your relationship even before you got married. What she did or didn't do with someone else aside, this wasn't a bait and switch. She showed you her cards really early and you married her anyway. If you love giving oral, why would you willingly marry who made so clear she wasn't into it, and thus the likelihood you weren't going to get any either?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> All I can say is that if this ever happens in real life, it is likely because the sex just isn't all that good.
> 
> People will enjoy things that feel good to them. And if it no longer feels good, then they'll stop doing it.
> 
> It's really that simple.


No it's not that simple, and I'm informed by several connected people (and by certain smiles after the relationship was over) that the sex was the best bit...


In some ways I think that was the real problem.
A bit like give a customer an awesome deal, if they're truly satisfied they don't see why they should pay more or wait more. they're "done".
So she got everything she could handle in that area, and decided that she didn't need to try. With the ex, she was younger, felt more insecure, didn't have reputation, finance, or social advantage she did with me - thus she tried to "do better, so that early-bf would [to the passive aggressive mind] seek ways to give more confirmation back to her". ie If she was doing her job, and she was making him happy then as payment and my part in the relationship contract early-bf would therefore magically make her wishes come true.

Yet when I was on the scene, I brought more security, so she need not seek it or try to influence me in providing more readily. and also she was slightly more mature with things and resigned to the world having errors and limitations, so not as readily leap in to wild things - likewise already having more social influence than a young girl (trying to buy friendship with cookies or skin) she no longer had to seek that from me, so therefore no interest in payout in the relationship contract. And likewise having not have "plan a" work for the ex, she's not going to waste the effort a second/third time.

simple, but definitely not the "not enjoyment thing" - her complaint about sex in the morning with me is that she always ended up sleeping most of the day away afterwards. (when we meet she said she liked morning cuddles & sex)


----------



## tripod

Starstarfish said:


> Okay, but @tripod, wasn't the writing kind of on the wall for this one? She was a "prude" early in your relationship even before you got married. What she did or didn't do with someone else aside, this wasn't a bait and switch. She showed you her cards really early and you married her anyway. If you love giving oral, why would you willingly marry who made so clear she wasn't into it, and thus the likelihood you weren't going to get any either?


Yup. You're right. I went into it eyes wide open. As I said, we're great intellectually and with common interests. 80 percent perfect match. It's that remaining 20 percent, the itch that doesn't get scratched.


----------



## Anon1111

tripod said:


> So I had the thought of starting a new thread, or adding to this. Frankly, I like the thought being put into answers by responders to this thread, so here goes:
> Stats first: (Second marriage. I'm 70, hale, lusty, fit--170 lbs, 5"10" 33 waist, 32 inseam, shaved bald, full beard. Gym 3x a week at a minimum. Alpha careers: military officer, university professor and executive administrator. Retired and now successful freelance writer and handle family investments. Wife: 60, 5', 150 lbs, Ph.d. in tech field, is away from home 2 weeks each month at isolated company location). Intellectually and avocationally we're a great match. When home wife is manic about home decorating projects.
> 
> So, even at my advanced age and staring death in the face every morning, I'm still a horndog. I'm fit, on testosterone replacement and have an ample supply of pecker pills.
> 
> Wife has always been if not a prude, at least a very shy person in bed. I remember our second date 10 years ago: I was loving her up and moving from the girls to the promised land. She grabbed my head, and pulled me ...UP saying "ewww....I don't like that." So...I love giving cunnilingus ...I was nicked named "lizard" at my college fraternity for my tongue prowess with the ladies...yes it got around. I like it and I like being able to pleasure a woman that way. BUT if no means no, then no it is...
> 
> Oh yes, the elephant in the drawing room is that dear wife drinks too much when she's home--one to two bottles of wine a night.
> 
> So we had fallen into a medium routine of three to four times when she was home. I'm best in the morning. She's tipsy in the evening.
> 
> And the sex? That second time...I remarked about how sexy she was--appearance and attitude-- and then when we go to the bedroom, she was just uninvolved. And she replied, "Corpse sex?" Well, yeah that was it. Corpse, starfish, dead. My wife's favorite position is "corpse."
> 
> And, yet she says she gets off within 3-5 minutes of plain missionary saying, "I'm quick and easy." Knowing she's pleasured is the only thing that keeps me coming back. No she doesn't initiate...ever.
> 
> So I could deal with that. Not like it but deal with it.
> 
> And then
> 
> She mentioned a former boy friend had been into B&D/S&M. WHOA! ****...she's never been any more adventursome than doggie with me and then she stopped because I hit her cervix. So, no oral for her and ewwww...no oral for me...nothing but missionary or her on top, no doggie, and please get everything over in 20 minutes. BUT YOU'LL DO S&M B&D WITH A FORMER BOY FRIEND.
> 
> She said her libido left with menopause.


yeah, I would nope the f- out of that relationship.

sorry man


----------



## Anon1111

tripod said:


> Yup. You're right. I went into it eyes wide open. As I said, we're great intellectually and with common interests. 80 percent perfect match. It's that remaining 20 percent, the itch that doesn't get scratched.


sounds like it was a second marriage

assuming you don't have any kids and you are not financially dependent on one another

plenty of women your age who would probably be all over you

why settle?

the alcohol abuse on top of the sex thing really puts it over the top, by the way


----------



## Married but Happy

tripod said:


> Yup. You're right. I went into it eyes wide open. As I said, we're great intellectually and with common interests. 80 percent perfect match. It's that remaining 20 percent, the itch that doesn't get scratched.


As you say, you chose knowingly. I would choose compatibility differently. I want at least 80 percent perfect match sexually/emotionally. The intellectual aspects and common interests have to have some overlap so we can spend quality time together outside the bedroom, but a lot (even most) of that can also be provided by friends - sex can't!


----------



## tripod

Anon1111 said:


> sounds like it was a second marriage
> 
> assuming you don't have any kids and you are not financially dependent on one another
> 
> plenty of women your age who would probably be all over you
> 
> why settle?
> 
> the alcohol abuse on top of the sex thing really puts it over the top, by the way


Yup. Second marriage for both. Only kiddos for me, grown and gone. The financial commitments are like the chains of Morley's Ghost binding us together. 

I know I can only change me. But, if she cared, wouldn't she change? So, no change=no care. And, that's sad and worse.


----------



## EllisRedding

Married but Happy said:


> As you say, you chose knowingly. I would choose compatibility differently. I want at least 80 percent perfect match sexually/emotionally. *The intellectual aspects and common interests have to have some overlap so we can spend quality time together outside the bedroom, but a lot (even most) of that can also be provided by friends - sex can't!*


Complete agreement with the bolded! :smthumbup:


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> I guess as a woman, who's completely used to the idea of having even less qualified people paid more than me and simply because I'm a woman, I look at this kind of scenario quite differently than you.
> 
> Life isn't fair and it's up to you to negotiate the best deal you can with the cards you were dealt. And look around, and you'll see just as many people (more I'm betting) who were dealt way worse cards than you, but instead you focus on those who have more and then worry about how hard done by you are. This is normal, we all do it. I do it too. *But at some point, it's important to remember to have gratitude for all the things we do have, instead of making up scenarios about some past lover that didn't even exist and then feeling shortchanged because your wife might've had better sex with him. *
> 
> Everyone has their own story and their own needs. And these change over time. You think that because you are a Ferrari now, you will always be one? How will your wife feel if you start having ED or (god forbid) something goes wrong and you are delivering only hatchback quality sex. Should she divorce you over it? _Should all your subsequent partners berate you for giving your ex wife your Ferrari, while they only get Corvette?_


*I get this. I'm not really complaining about what my wife and I have. We're more like Viper level and I truly believe that's where she's comfortable.*

_If I'm still capable of that, then yes. If a woman decides I'm the only man she wants to spend her life with,s I should give her the most I have to give in any aspect of our life. I'm not saying there won't be times when I will fail to do so for some reason, but on balance it should skew toward the 100% side. I try to do this with my wife. I know I fail often. But this is the love of my life. I want to do things for her and with her that I never wanted to do with anyone else. I would hope it's the same for her._

But it seems that it's the opposite for some people. They feel like they gave and gave to the wrong people. Now that they have the right person they don't have to do that anymore. And that's fine. As I and others have said here I don't want anything that isn't freely given. But I do wonder why the "wrong" people warranted the giving and the "right" people don't.

I'm not sure how to phrase this. I'm not good with words, just ask my wife. But I wonder if people who give everything to try to make relationships work with the wrong people, I wonder if on some level they don't look for someone who doesn't insist on that level of giving and that's what makes them the "right" person. And all is good, because even though Jim would love a BJ every week, he'd never demand it. As long as he thinks his wife just doesn't really like giving BJs period, he won't push the issue. But if Jim finds out that she doesn't like doing that WITH HIM but liked doing it with some other guy(s) that's when Jim starts to feel like he was the safe choice. The guy that was good husband material on paper, but never got her all that hot and bothered.


----------



## tripod

Yup. I made my bed. After my divorce from a true multiple personality-disordered woman, I spent 10 years looking for Ms. Perfect. Had a lot of fun--once took a full on competitive female body builder and MD to a stuffy university fund-raiser. Met many wonderful women and found that if you wait for "perfect" then you'll be waiting when you're underground. Wife is an amazing person, but...


----------



## EllisRedding

There is always the possibility of the bait and switch as well. One person acts a certain way sexually at the onset of a relationship b/c they feel that is what is needed to do to keep the other interested. Once the goal is accomplished and they catch their prey, they simply revert back to who they truly are.


----------



## Justinian

cknpro said:


> If he doesn't like you, he'd have more trouble getting it up, keeping it up - not making it last.





FrazzledSadHusband said:


> If he wasn't as turned on, he could go longer, whereas you turn him on to the point of blowing early. Another way to think about it???



I wondered about this as well.

My personal past experience was that the more exciting a woman was to me, the harder it was to go any distance.


----------



## Buddy400

I Don't Know said:


> *I get this. I'm not really complaining about what my wife and I have. We're more like Viper level and I truly believe that's where she's comfortable.*
> 
> _If I'm still capable of that, then yes. If a woman decides I'm the only man she wants to spend her life with,s I should give her the most I have to give in any aspect of our life. I'm not saying there won't be times when I will fail to do so for some reason, but on balance it should skew toward the 100% side. I try to do this with my wife. I know I fail often. But this is the love of my life. I want to do things for her and with her that I never wanted to do with anyone else. I would hope it's the same for her._
> 
> But it seems that it's the opposite for some people. They feel like they gave and gave to the wrong people. Now that they have the right person they don't have to do that anymore. And that's fine. As I and others have said here I don't want anything that isn't freely given. But I do wonder why the "wrong" people warranted the giving and the "right" people don't.
> 
> I'm not sure how to phrase this. I'm not good with words, just ask my wife. But I wonder if people who give everything to try to make relationships work with the wrong people, I wonder if on some level they don't look for someone who doesn't insist on that level of giving and that's what makes them the "right" person. And all is good, because even though Jim would love a BJ every week, he'd never demand it. As long as he thinks his wife just doesn't really like giving BJs period, he won't push the issue. But if Jim finds out that she doesn't like doing that WITH HIM but liked doing it with some other guy(s) that's when Jim starts to feel like he was the safe choice. The guy that was good husband material on paper, but never got her all that hot and bothered.


Well, I'm not sure how it could be explained any better.

Just waiting for someone to come along and explain why you shouldn't force someone to do something that they hate or find very painful (missing the point as always).


----------



## wild jade

spotthedeaddog said:


> wow snap - and here am I a guy that has to get used to the idea that less able women get paid more than me, get more readily hired, get more and better perks, and (as I just found out recently) special scholarships and internship offerings just for them because they're women.


Like I said. Whoever told you life was fair was ..... wrong.


----------



## wild jade

tripod said:


> Yup. Second marriage for both. Only kiddos for me, grown and gone. The financial commitments are like the chains of Morley's Ghost binding us together.
> 
> I know I can only change me. But, if she cared, wouldn't she change? So, no change=no care. And, that's sad and worse.


I just don't understand how you can marry someone, and then claim that if they really cared for you they would change.

Like, huh? If you don't love them as who they are, then you shouldn't have married them. Who are you (anyone) to ask someone else to change?

It's just the same as saying, if you really loved them, then you would change to meet their needs.

So why isn't that solution good enough?


----------



## wild jade

spotthedeaddog said:


> No it's not that simple, and I'm informed by several connected people (and by certain smiles after the relationship was over) that the sex was the best bit...
> 
> 
> In some ways I think that was the real problem.
> A bit like give a customer an awesome deal, if they're truly satisfied they don't see why they should pay more or wait more. they're "done".
> So she got everything she could handle in that area, and decided that she didn't need to try. With the ex, she was younger, felt more insecure, didn't have reputation, finance, or social advantage she did with me - thus she tried to "do better, so that early-bf would [to the passive aggressive mind] seek ways to give more confirmation back to her". ie If she was doing her job, and she was making him happy then as payment and my part in the relationship contract early-bf would therefore magically make her wishes come true.
> 
> Yet when I was on the scene, I brought more security, so she need not seek it or try to influence me in providing more readily. and also she was slightly more mature with things and resigned to the world having errors and limitations, so not as readily leap in to wild things - likewise already having more social influence than a young girl (trying to buy friendship with cookies or skin) she no longer had to seek that from me, so therefore no interest in payout in the relationship contract. And likewise having not have "plan a" work for the ex, she's not going to waste the effort a second/third time.
> 
> simple, but definitely not the "not enjoyment thing" - her complaint about sex in the morning with me is that she always ended up sleeping most of the day away afterwards. (when we meet she said she liked morning cuddles & sex)


I think we are all better able to assert our own individual needs and desires as we mature.

I'm sorry to hear that the ways your wife has matured was not wild enough for you.


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> *I get this. I'm not really complaining about what my wife and I have. We're more like Viper level and I truly believe that's where she's comfortable.*
> 
> _If I'm still capable of that, then yes. If a woman decides I'm the only man she wants to spend her life with,s I should give her the most I have to give in any aspect of our life. I'm not saying there won't be times when I will fail to do so for some reason, but on balance it should skew toward the 100% side. I try to do this with my wife. I know I fail often. But this is the love of my life. I want to do things for her and with her that I never wanted to do with anyone else. I would hope it's the same for her._
> 
> But it seems that it's the opposite for some people. They feel like they gave and gave to the wrong people. Now that they have the right person they don't have to do that anymore. And that's fine. As I and others have said here I don't want anything that isn't freely given. But I do wonder why the "wrong" people warranted the giving and the "right" people don't.
> 
> I'm not sure how to phrase this. I'm not good with words, just ask my wife. But I wonder if people who give everything to try to make relationships work with the wrong people, I wonder if on some level they don't look for someone who doesn't insist on that level of giving and that's what makes them the "right" person. And all is good, because even though Jim would love a BJ every week, he'd never demand it. As long as he thinks his wife just doesn't really like giving BJs period, he won't push the issue. But if Jim finds out that she doesn't like doing that WITH HIM but liked doing it with some other guy(s) that's when Jim starts to feel like he was the safe choice. The guy that was good husband material on paper, but never got her all that hot and bothered.



My husband is not the best looking man I've dated. He is not the best lover. He's not the most successful, the smartest, the richest. But he's still my best. By far.

And I am not the prettiest woman he has dated, and he's likely had better sex with someone else. And I'm probably not the smartest, the most successful or the richest either. 

But am I going to spend the rest of my life feeling sorry for myself because he might have slept with someone who had more to offer than me? No. I'm not. 

I'll admit that on my down days, I often with I could be confident I was all that and more. But then I get my perspective back and realize that we're all flawed in our own special ways. And there's always someone out there who's more .... whatever. So what?


----------



## I Don't Know

@wild jade How do you mean he's still your best?


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> @wild jade How do you mean he's still your best?


He loves me for who I am and doesn't want to change me. We share important values and attitudes. He makes me laugh -- and thinks I'm funny. He's kind and generous and laid back. He looks out for me, looks out for other people. He makes me think and keeps me on my toes.

I could probably go on, but you get the idea. It's the whole package, not just a few discrete measures that makes him for me.


----------



## I Don't Know

Someone doesn't have to be objectively the best looking for you to be insanely attracted to them or technically the most skilled lover to be the best.

For example. There was this girl when I was fresh out of high school. She was cute. She had some funky teeth. Not like rotting away just crooked. Not the best looking girl in our circle for sure, but there was a stretch of time when I was probably more drawn to her than any of the "perfect" girls.

With regards to sex, you can have some kinky ass freaky technically great sex that is beat hands down by less kinky but highly enthusiastic and emotionally fulfilling sex. It's like the difference between a technically great classical guitarist that doesn't feel the music and BB King.

I don't know if you'd call it chemistry or what. I think I've seen @samyeagar call it the "it factor". Whatever it is, it's what I want my wife to feel toward me. And I'm pretty sure she does. I don't have to actually be THE BEST lover or THE HOTTEST guy she's ever been with. As long as she sees me that way, I'm good.


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> He loves me for who I am and doesn't want to change me. We share important values and attitudes. He makes me laugh -- and thinks I'm funny. He's kind and generous and laid back. He looks out for me, looks out for other people. He makes me think and keeps me on my toes.
> 
> I could probably go on, but you get the idea. It's the whole package, not just a few discrete measures that makes him for me.


So he's the best fit for you. That's awesome and I want to be that with my wife also. I think I may be coming across as I am discounting all the non sexual stuff. I'm not. I just want to be her best fit in the bedroom as well.


----------



## EllisRedding

I Don't Know said:


> So he's the best fit for you. That's awesome and I want to be that with my wife also. *I think I may be coming across as I am discounting all the non sexual stuff. I'm not. I just want to be her best fit in the bedroom as well.*


See, I think for some (many ?) the sexual side of things is very integrated with all the other stuff in the relationship. If my W decided to just let herself go, stop caring about sex or making an effort, that will have a direct impact on our relationship, no matter how good everything else may have seemed to be. I can't just discount the sex side of things b/c of all the non sexual stuff may be good, and vice versa.


----------



## Vega

I Don't Know said:


> I don't have to actually be THE BEST lover or THE HOTTEST guy she's ever been with. *As long as she sees me that way*, I'm good.


She may not even _see_ you as THE BEST lover or THE HOTTEST guy she's ever been with. 

But she may see you as THE BEST and THE HOTTEST _for HER_ because of some other important qualities that pervious people were lacking. 

The thing is, that on a scale of 1 to 10, you might be a good strong '8'. She may be very happy with you as you are. If you were to try to become a '10', you'd probably be doing it for the wrong reasons. As long as she's not complaining well...as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't FIX IT!"


----------



## Married but Happy

EllisRedding said:


> See, I think for some (many ?) the sexual side of things is very integrated with all the other stuff in the relationship. If my W decided to just let herself go, stop caring about sex or making an effort, that will have a direct impact on our relationship, no matter how good everything else may have seemed to be. I can't just discount the sex side of things b/c of all the non sexual stuff may be good, and vice versa.


It ALL has to work reasonably well. If something important isn't working, then the whole thing can fall apart (aside from bad habit keeping it moving even though dead). In other words, any one deal-breaker breaks the whole relationship. You don't have to be the best in every category to be best for someone - but the overall combination may make you the best.


----------



## Vega

EllisRedding said:


> *If my W decided to just let herself go, stop caring about sex or making an effort, that will have a direct impact on our relationship, no matter how good everything else may have seemed to be.* I can't just discount the sex side of things b/c of all the non sexual stuff may be good, and vice versa.


But that's just it, Ellis. Chances are, that if she "let herself go" and stopped caring about sex or making an effort, it's more than likely NOT because of what's going on (or not going on) INSIDE of the bedroom. 

If the non-sexual stuff isn't so good, it will more than likely have an impact on the sexual stuff. 

If I don't like you, I _absolutely_ don't want to have sex with you, no matter how good looking, rich or famous you are or how great your sexual technique may be. 

But if I DO like you, it _still_ doesn't necessarily mean that I want to have sex with you, either...

...no matter how rich, good-looking, famous, etc. that you are, even if you wrote the Kama Sutra.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I'm not sure how it could be explained any better.
> 
> Just waiting for someone to come along and explain why you shouldn't force someone to do something that they hate or find very painful (missing the point as always).


Well looks like you're volunteering to eat lettuce salad for every meal for the rest of your life - and you see no problem with that?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> But am I going to spend the rest of my life feeling sorry for myself because he might have slept with someone who had more to offer than me? No. I'm not.


If he took other girlfriends on world trips, at great expense,

and refused to take you on even a halfway decent vacation even though he has all the resources.... and knowing that you WANT to travel... I doubt you'll put up with that forever (knowing that he was EASILY capable)


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> But that's just it, Ellis. Chances are, that if she "let herself go" and stopped caring about sex or making an effort, it's more than likely NOT because of what's going on (or not going on) INSIDE of the bedroom.
> 
> If the non-sexual stuff isn't so good, it will more than likely have an impact on the sexual stuff.
> 
> If I don't like you, I _absolutely_ don't want to have sex with you, no matter how good looking, rich or famous you are or how great your sexual technique may be.
> 
> But if I DO like you, it _still_ doesn't necessarily mean that I want to have sex with you, either...
> 
> ...no matter how rich, good-looking, famous, etc. that you are, even if you wrote the Kama Sutra.


Yes and no, you seem to focus solely on the non sex side as if sex is just the added bonus. I agree with you that if I don't like you, well, then obviously sexual interest will diminish. On the other side though, there are plenty of people who seem to be very happy with their SOs on the non sexual side but have little interest on the sex side. It could be as simple as taking your SO for granted, hormones (drive mismatches), they could be flat out lazy/selfish, etc... 

The sex and non sex stuff go hand in hand. One doesn't come before the other. I am just trying to provide a counter argument to those who seem to diminish the role of sex in a relationship, or imply it is something that you only earn after you have done everything else. In line with what Married But Happy said, it all has to work reasonably well, if one important aspect in a relationship breaks down, it is highly likely to carry through to the entire relationship.This could be on the sexual side or the non sexual side.


----------



## Buddy400

spotthedeaddog said:


> Well looks like you're volunteering to eat lettuce salad for every meal for the rest of your life - and you see no problem with that?


?


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> Someone doesn't have to be objectively the best looking for you to be insanely attracted to them or technically the most skilled lover to be the best.
> 
> For example. There was this girl when I was fresh out of high school. She was cute. She had some funky teeth. Not like rotting away just crooked. Not the best looking girl in our circle for sure, but there was a stretch of time when I was probably more drawn to her than any of the "perfect" girls.
> 
> With regards to sex, you can have some kinky ass freaky technically great sex that is beat hands down by less kinky but highly enthusiastic and emotionally fulfilling sex. It's like the difference between a technically great classical guitarist that doesn't feel the music and BB King.
> 
> I don't know if you'd call it chemistry or what. I think I've seen @samyeagar call it the "it factor". Whatever it is, it's what I want my wife to feel toward me. And I'm pretty sure she does. I don't have to actually be THE BEST lover or THE HOTTEST guy she's ever been with. As long as she sees me that way, I'm good.


Exactly! None of us are perfect and we get together with other people who are not perfect. And we remember all those hot people we were drawn to in the past, and why we were drawn to them. And we remember that great sex we had in the past and why it was great sex. 

If you have your own sweet memories of amazing sex andl the hot people you've dated, why do you want to deny your wife those same things?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Buddy400 said:


> ?


The one thing, which someone else decides for you, which is theoretically food (or theoretically sex) but without variations, excitement or change. How dare you want more because you aren't getting it, so eat your lettuce and smile happily.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> If you have your own sweet memories of amazing sex andl the hot people you've dated, why do you want to deny your wife those same things?


I don't! In fact I want to work together to do that and more. Everything plus a bit more to show how much I care .... vs how little I value her against the past.

Which is what the original comment stirred up:
She'd do it for some other dude, why doesn't OP rate such fun?


----------



## tripod

wild jade said:


> I just don't understand how you can marry someone, and then claim that if they really cared for you they would change.
> 
> Like, huh? If you don't love them as who they are, then you shouldn't have married them. Who are you (anyone) to ask someone else to change?
> 
> It's just the same as saying, if you really loved them, then you would change to meet their needs.
> 
> So why isn't that solution good enough?


I've read your helpful comments and am reminded of this exchange between Lady Astor and Winston Churchill: Lady Nancy Astor:

"Winston, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee."
Winston Churchill:
"Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."


----------



## Good Guy

I think this is simple really. 

If I love my wife, and she asks me to do something for her that I don't particularly enjoy, but I know she would enjoy a lot, then I'll do it for her. End of story. If I really dislike it, I will tell her and explain why. That's how mature sensible adults operate.

For example, I hate ballet with a passion, and my wife knows this, but I'll still occasionally go see it with my wife and won't spoil her enjoyment of it. Similarly she hates football (soccer), but she will get me a beer and leave me watch it in peace, and occasionally even ask me something about the game.

Imagine if I took my previous girlfriend to the ballet, tell my wife how much fun we had, but refused to EVER take her, despite her REALLY wanting it? The OP's wife *enjoyed* doing those things in the past, so that's just being mean and spiteful. It's also telling the OP that either she didn't really enjoy it then but was so attracted to the other man so she did it anyway, or she detests him so much she wouldn't consider doing something with him that she enjoys.

The rest of the explanations around this are all just rationalizing and bull quite frankly. I think some people either don't want to admit their true feelings for their husbands or are so unbelievably self centred they never should have married.


----------



## Personal

People change, just because someone loved going to the "ballet" previously doesn't mean it isn't okay for them to change their mind later.

I used to love doing skydiving and abseiling yet today despite the fact I remember such activities fondly, I have zero interest in doing them again now.


----------



## EllisRedding

Personal said:


> People change, just because someone loved going to the "ballet" previously doesn't mean it isn't okay for them to change their mind later.
> 
> .


In the Good Guy's example, it wasn't that he loved going to the ballet, it was that he understood his SO enjoyed it, so he was willing to go along for her.


----------



## Personal

EllisRedding said:


> In the Good Guy's example, it wasn't that he loved going to the ballet, it was that he understood his SO enjoyed it, so he was willing to go along for her.





Good Guy said:


> Imagine if I took my previous girlfriend to the ballet, tell my wife how much fun we had, but refused to EVER take her, despite her REALLY wanting it?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Personal said:


> People change, just because someone loved going to the "ballet" previously doesn't mean it isn't okay for them to change their mind later.
> 
> I used to love doing skydiving and abseiling yet today despite the fact I remember such activities fondly, I have zero interest in doing them again now.


Which is fine for you....
But if you had a partner who always wanted to jump or still loved it, do you care about them enough to go with them and share in their joy?


----------



## EllisRedding

Good Guy said:


> For example, I hate ballet with a passion, and my wife knows this, but I'll still occasionally go see it with my wife and won't spoil her enjoyment of it.


----------



## Personal

spotthedeaddog said:


> Which is fine for you....
> But if you had a partner who always wanted to jump or still loved it, do you care about them enough to go with them and share in their joy?


Nope, if I don't want to do something any more I won't do it.


----------



## Good Guy

Personal said:


> Nope, if I don't want to do something any more I won't do it.


That's why you never should get married. I am sure you are equally tolerant of your spouse if you want to do something and they refuse.


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> Exactly! None of us are perfect and we get together with other people who are not perfect. And we remember all those hot people we were drawn to in the past, and why we were drawn to them. And we remember that great sex we had in the past and why it was great sex.
> 
> If you have your own sweet memories of amazing sex andl the hot people you've dated, why do you want to deny your wife those same things?


They're not really sweet memories for me though. They're just things that happened. I remember feeling they were great or not great at the time but now they don't really have any meaning to me. I don't feel any emotion if I think about them.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## Good Guy

Personal said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Why shouldn't I get married?
> 
> Since thus far through 17+ years I have enjoyed a terrific marriage to my lover of 20+ years.
> 
> If my wife doesn't want to do something with me, I see no reason for her to feel she ought to do it just to please me. Taking one for the team in a sexual relationship is a splendid way to build resentment, so no thanks on that score.


Hmmm ... I don't agree. It's one thing bending over backwards and being at your wife's beck and call 24/7 but NEVER doing ANYTHING for her that you had no problem doing for other women in the past, especially something she would really enjoy and wants to do is a very selfish way to live your life - but I guess to each his own. Some women seem to prefer selfish *******s though so probably that's why your marriage has lasted. Depressing really.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> They're not really sweet memories for me though. They're just things that happened. I remember feeling they were great or not great at the time but now they don't really have any meaning to me. I don't feel any emotion if I think about them.



And why do you think it's so different for women? 

This whole conversation is predicated on this idea that women absolutely LOVE doing all these wild and crazy things for some past bf that so absolutely turned her on (even though he was a complete *******), but they think so much less of their husbands -- and the proof for all this it that they won't do these wild and crazy things anymore.

All I'm saying is that this is a fiction. A fiction designed to play manipulative mind games on the one you supposedly love and make yourself feel inadequate in the process.

I expect there are those occasions when someone holds a torch for a past lover. But most of us are quite capable of moving on and living in the present.


----------



## Good Guy

Personal said:


> Actually it's probably lasted because she feels safe and comfortable with me, enjoys my company, has fun with me and also enjoys the sex we share.
> 
> Plus neither of us play covert contract games and are both rather matter of fact with each other.


The examples I gave are not covert contracts. Stating you want something is not a covert contract.


----------



## wild jade

Good Guy said:


> Hmmm ... I don't agree. It's one thing bending over backwards and being at your wife's beck and call 24/7 but NEVER doing ANYTHING for her that you had no problem doing for other women in the past, especially something she would really enjoy and wants to do is a very selfish way to live your life - but I guess to each his own. Some women seem to prefer selfish *******s though so probably that's why your marriage has lasted. Depressing really.


There is a whole lot of distance between bending over backwards to do everything for someone no matter how much you hate it and NEVER doing ANYTHING for that person.

Don't you think?


----------



## Personal

Good Guy said:


> The examples I gave are not covert contracts. Stating you want something is not a covert contract.


I didn't suggest claim or imply that your examples were covert contracts.

On the other hand you did suggest that my thus far marital success was probably because I am a "selfish *******".

That being said since what you suggested was a misnomer, I mentioned some of the reasons why my marriage works inclusive of the fact we don't have covert contracts.


----------



## Good Guy

wild jade said:


> There is a whole lot of distance between bending over backwards to do everything for someone no matter how much you hate it and NEVER doing ANYTHING for that person.
> 
> Don't you think?


Yes, both are extremes, and equally bad IMO. That's my point.


----------



## wild jade

Personal said:


> I didn't suggest claim or imply that your examples were covert contracts.
> 
> On the other hand you did suggest that my thus far marital success was probably because I am a "selfish *******".
> 
> That being said since what you suggested was a misnomer, I mentioned some of the reasons why my marriage works inclusive of the fact we don't havcovert contracts.


Well of course you're a selfish *******. You won't go skydiving with your wife, even though she likes it. :wink2:


----------



## Personal

wild jade said:


> Well of course you're a selfish *******. You won't go skydiving with your wife, even though she likes it. :wink2:


As it turns out she has no interest in such activity, so I can't see it being an issue right now.

That said I will not ever go on a roller coaster with her even though she enjoys going on them, despite the fact I have been on a roller coaster with another woman once before in my past.


----------



## wild jade

Good Guy said:


> Yes, both are extremes, and equally bad IMO. That's my point.


Okay, good. We're on the same page then.

We don't necessarily have to give our spouses absolutely everything they want in order to be good spouses. But we should do our best to give what we can. Within reason, ability, and context.


----------



## I Don't Know

wild jade said:


> And why do you think it's so different for women?
> 
> This whole conversation is predicated on this idea that women absolutely LOVE doing all these wild and crazy things for some past bf that so absolutely turned her on (even though he was a complete *******), but they think so much less of their husbands -- and the proof for all this it that they won't do these wild and crazy things anymore.
> 
> All I'm saying is that this is a fiction. A fiction designed to play manipulative mind games on the one you supposedly love and make yourself feel inadequate in the process.
> 
> I expect there are those occasions when someone holds a torch for a past lover. But most of us are quite capable of moving on and living in the present.


I think there's some reason these women did whatever they did with whoever they did it. I think being wildly attracted to them could be one, but there are other reasons it could have happened. 

I really don't know why this bothers me so much. Part of me does say "so what". If she was more attracted to some other guy? If she did wilder things with some other guy? EVEN if she was still carrying a torch for some other guy? So what? It doesn't keep her from being a hell of a wife and lover. If she makes me happy, why would knowing this make me less happy? It doesn't make sense that it would. And yet there's this other part of me that says it does matter. Your whole life together would be a lie and waste of time if this happened.


----------



## wild jade

Personal said:


> As it turns out she has no interest in such activity, so I can't see it being an issue right now.
> 
> That said I will not ever go on a roller coaster with her and I have been on a roller coaster with another woman once before in my past.


You were almost off the hook there, but that second paragraph seals it. You don't really care about your wife or love her. If you did, you would suck it up and get on that roller coaster. After all you did it for that other woman, why won't you do it now. It wasn't that bad was it? You loved that other woman way more than your wife. Admit it! Admit it!

>


----------



## Good Guy

wild jade said:


> Okay, good. We're on the same page then.
> 
> We don't necessarily have to give our spouses absolutely everything they want in order to be good spouses. But we should do our best to give what we can. Within reason, ability, and context.


I've read some of your other replies to other threads and your thought process is very like mine - so I'm not surprised.


----------



## EllisRedding

wild jade said:


> Okay, good. We're on the same page then.
> 
> We don't necessarily have to give our spouses absolutely everything they want in order to be good spouses. But we should do our best to give what we can. Within reason, ability, and context.


I think it is what many here have been saying. No one is saying you should force your SO to do something they don't want to do. Each person in the relationship, if they truly care about each other, should do their best to be a good spouse. This at times will include doing things that maybe they don't feel like doing at the time (talking more about being indifferent to, and not specifically sexual). Seems like a reasonable expectation to me.


----------



## Good Guy

wild jade said:


> You were almost off the hook there, but that second paragraph seals it. You don't really care about your wife or love her. If you did, you would suck it up and get on that roller coaster. After all you did it for that other woman, why won't you do it now. It wasn't that bad was it? You loved that other woman way more than your wife. Admit it! Admit it!
> 
> >


I could see if he went for the first time on a roller coaster with another woman and it scared the life out of him how he would never want to do it again - but if he said he enjoyed it, then I don't see how he would not do it with his wife. I know you were joking.


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> I think there's some reason these women did whatever they did with whoever they did it. I think being wildly attracted to them could be one, but there are other reasons it could have happened.
> 
> I really don't know why this bothers me so much. Part of me does say "so what". If she was more attracted to some other guy? If she did wilder things with some other guy? EVEN if she was still carrying a torch for some other guy? So what? It doesn't keep her from being a hell of a wife and lover. If she makes me happy, why would knowing this make me less happy? It doesn't make sense that it would. And yet there's this other part of me that says it does matter. Your whole life together would be a lie and waste of time if this happened.


I do know how you feel, really I do. But I think it's that little voice in the head that tells you you're not good enough, that you don't matter or don't measure up. It's the insecurity talking.

It would be just as much of a lie for me to say that I never really experienced lust, desire, or attraction before my husband came along. Or to pretend that everything I had done up to meeting him completely sucked. 

Or if we were to split or one of us were to die -- what then? Any subsequent partner would necessarily be in the shadow of this one love? 

It's a romantic ideal, maybe, but not terribly realistic. And an awful lot of pressure.


----------



## Personal

When I was 17 I went on a roller coaster once and I hated it and will never do it again.

In-between then and now I have done static line and free fall parachuting, abseiling, looped in gliders, been a passenger in civil aircraft doing aerobatics, been in military transports doing tactical flights, sat on the floor of military helicopters doors open flying over and through creeks and reentrants and much more besides. Plus I still get to do cool aviation stuff like I will be doing this weekend away from my wife.

Yet I don't care who (the generic) you are, I will not ever go on a roller coaster with you.


----------



## wild jade

Personal said:


> When I was 17 I went on a roller coaster once and I hated it and will never do it again.
> 
> In-between then and now I have done static line and free fall parachuting, abseiling, looped in gliders, been a passenger in civil aircraft doing aerobatics, been in military transports doing tactical flights, sat on the floor of military helicopters doors open flying over and through creeks and reentrants and much more besides. Plus I still get to do cool aviation stuff like I will be doing this weekend away from my wife.
> 
> Yet I don't care who (the generic) you are, I will not ever go on a roller coaster with you.


Must be those damn tracks.


----------



## Personal

Good Guy said:


> I could see if he went for the first time on a roller coaster with another woman and it scared the life out of him how he would never want to do it again - but if he said he enjoyed it, then I don't see how he would not do it with his wife.


People can change, so if it is no longer them they shouldn't do it.


----------



## Personal

wild jade said:


> Must be those damn tracks.


Yes it is!


----------



## I Don't Know

It's every damn Nicholas Sparks movie that I've watched with her (which by the way I do not enjoy and would have never done with anyone else ). Each and every one of these things is...

Woman has fling with guy.
Fling ends.
Woman marries a "safe" guy while regretting her lost love.
Fling guy comes back into her life.
Woman a) cheats b) dumps husband or c) professes her undying love for fling guy but he dies and so she's stuck with plan B.

I feel like there's a reason these movies are so popular with a lot of women. And every guy should be watching over his shoulder for that guy his wife is pining away for. 

Kidding. 

Moslty.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> I could see if he went for the first time on a roller coaster with another woman and it scared the life out of him how he would never want to do it again - but if he said he enjoyed it, then I don't see how he would not do it with his wife. I know you were joking.


If he did it ONCE 20 years ago and liked it that one time, does that mean that he ALWAYS has to like it or want to do it? 

If that's the case, then I should still be playing Candyland, riding a tricycle, and hopping the fence at midnight at a state park in order to go swimming. 

Some people _mature_ with time. What may have been appealing to us in our late teens, early 20's may no longer appeal to us in our late thirties, early 40's. 

I think we're overlooking something important in all of this.

If we want a partner who is into anal (for instance) I think that should be stated BEFORE we even start sleeping together, or shortly thereafter. And we can't ask, "Have you ever tried...?" and use their answer as an indicator as to whether or not they'd be up for it in the future. We need to ask them specifically if they would be willing to try it (again?) in the future. 

If they tell you 'no', then it's up to YOU to do some soul searching regarding the relationship. If it's something you reeeeeeeally want to do, don't marry the person who doesn't want to do it. 

Maybe we need to bring our sexual expectations up front before we make that commitment. 

Also, what if someone tells us that they 'would never' want to try anal and neither do we....and 6 years later, they decide that after hearing some friends talking about it, that they really, really DO want to try it? Is the spouse then obligated to try it, even after explaining that it's something that they would NEVER want to do?


----------



## Phil Anders

wild jade said:


> It would be just as much of a lie for me to say that I never really experienced lust, desire, or attraction before my husband came along. Or to pretend that everything I had done up to meeting him completely sucked.


Yes, but that's a strawman.

This is about passion and inspiration. Almost everyone has their rational boundaries, a sense of what they will and won't do that they could write down in a left-brained context. And yet many--most?--of us have also had the experience of being around someone whose influence is such that we suspend or ignore those reasoned strictures and go _beyond_ in the heat of the moment. 

That general description encompasses a morally agnostic range of "inspired" activities, from giving out your number to robbing a bank. But if such a moment is remembered fondly, then we can assume it was a healthy departure, or at least an innocuous one. If not, there's a clear narrative of why it shouldn't be repeated. 

The desire expressed in this thread isn't to blindly pretend your partner has never had fun before, or to get her to do something harmful/painful/abhorrent. *It's to have the confidence that you inspire the maximum of tossing-caution-and-protocol-to-the-four-winds adventurousness, however that is defined for her.* Though some object to them as a measuring stick, prior acts are relevant to that definition.

I agree that if you have to whine or use pressure, you've already lost this battle, big time. But such a revelation could be an epiphany-- to up your game, or to move on.


----------



## wild jade

I Don't Know said:


> It's every damn Nicholas Sparks movie that I've watched with her (which by the way I do not enjoy and would have never done with anyone else ). Each and every one of these things is...
> 
> Woman has fling with guy.
> Fling ends.
> Woman marries a "safe" guy while regretting her lost love.
> Fling guy comes back into her life.
> Woman a) cheats b) dumps husband or c) professes her undying love for fling guy but he dies and so she's stuck with plan B.
> 
> I feel like there's a reason these movies are so popular with a lot of women. And every guy should be watching over his shoulder for that guy his wife is pining away for.
> 
> Kidding.
> 
> Moslty.


Oh dear. What kind of movies do you watch? Time for some new entertainment. I personally really like forensic files. On that show husbands and wives are killing each other left, right, and center. Compared to that, my husband and I are the perfect couple. Oh yay, my husband hasn't offed me today. We must be soul mates!

A low bar means you'll never be disappointed. LOL.

Seriously, there are all kinds of plots to romantic comedies and these kinds of films. One of the most common is woman doesn't fully appreciate the shy quiet nerdy guy until (insert plot complication here) and then finally realizes she is all the man she's ever dreamed of.


----------



## wild jade

Phil Anders said:


> Yes, but that's a strawman.
> 
> This is about passion and inspiration. Almost everyone has their rational boundaries, a sense of what they will and won't do that they could write down in a left-brained context. And yet many--most?--of us have also had the experience of being around someone whose influence is such that we suspend or ignore those reasoned strictures and go _beyond_ in the heat of the moment.
> 
> That general description encompasses a morally agnostic range of "inspired" activities, from giving out your number to robbing a bank. But if such a moment is remembered fondly, then we can assume it was a healthy departure, or at least an innocuous one. If not, there's a clear narrative of why it shouldn't be repeated.
> 
> The desire expressed in this thread isn't to blindly pretend your partner has never had fun before, or to get her to do something harmful/painful/abhorrent. *It's to have the confidence that you inspire the maximum of tossing-caution-and-protocol-to-the-four-winds adventurousness, however that is defined for her.* Though some object to them as a measuring stick, prior acts are relevant to that definition.
> 
> I agree that if you have to whine or use pressure, you've already lost this battle, big time. But such a revelation could be an epiphany-- to up your game, or to move on.


If you want to turn a woman on to that level, then you have to be a good lover. A really good lover. 

No fair blaming another person for not seeing you the way you want to be seen. It's your self image, you live up to it.

The whole point, as I see it anyway, is that prior acts may have some relevance, but there are lots and lots of motivators for tossing caution to the wind, and turn on is only just one of them. 

Also, as was duly noted earlier in this thread, tossing caution to the wind isn't always desirable, even slightly, so you have to be careful about what you ask for vs what you judge harshly.


----------



## uhtred

If instead of "married" you have "dates', then that describes a depressing percentage of movies. The good guy / bad guy triangle is really common in movies that appeal to a female audience. 





I Don't Know said:


> It's every damn Nicholas Sparks movie that I've watched with her (which by the way I do not enjoy and would have never done with anyone else ). Each and every one of these things is...
> 
> Woman has fling with guy.
> Fling ends.
> Woman marries a "safe" guy while regretting her lost love.
> Fling guy comes back into her life.
> Woman a) cheats b) dumps husband or c) professes her undying love for fling guy but he dies and so she's stuck with plan B.
> 
> I feel like there's a reason these movies are so popular with a lot of women. And every guy should be watching over his shoulder for that guy his wife is pining away for.
> 
> Kidding.
> 
> Moslty.


----------



## cknpro

Something no one has mentioned here could also be in play. It relates to how most men place previous relationships in our memory versus how women handle the same thing. 

I have seen it written about a few times and for myself can see it to be this way: men NEVER forget past relationships and will focus on the good things forever. Women are able to file them away and only bring up the things they deem needful for the future - and those things are typically not attached to a "face" so to speak. 

So when we men learn our current SO had other SO that they engaged in some perceived hot activity but don't want to with us - we perceive we are being judged as less than the other dude - because that's how we operate - and it kills our ego. I can remember most all the great trists I had with most all the women I was with prior to the wife, and honestly I can think back on those and still feel a little "ahhh" toward them. It's just how our brain works. Women's apparently don't work that way. Women are able to drop a guy and move on usually fairly well without a lot of baggage (barring abuse, etc). 

So...if this is true, then the ability to separate the ego from the reality and have an honest discussion of wants, needs, desires with the spouse and operate in current reality seems the more successful route. Remove selfishness and grow.


----------



## wild jade

cknpro said:


> Something no one has mentioned here could also be in play. It relates to how most men place previous relationships in our memory versus how women handle the same thing.
> 
> I have seen it written about a few times and for myself can see it to be this way: men NEVER forget past relationships and will focus on the good things forever. Women are able to file them away and only bring up the things they deem needful for the future - and those things are typically not attached to a "face" so to speak.
> 
> So when we men learn our current SO had other SO that they engaged in some perceived hot activity but don't want to with us - we perceive we are being judged as less than the other dude - because that's how we operate - and it kills our ego. I can remember most all the great trists I had with most all the women I was with prior to the wife, and honestly I can think back on those and still feel a little "ahhh" toward them. It's just how our brain works. Women's apparently don't work that way. Women are able to drop a guy and move on usually fairly well without a lot of baggage (barring abuse, etc).
> 
> So...if this is true, then the ability to separate the ego from the reality and have an honest discussion of wants, needs, desires with the spouse and operate in current reality seems the more successful route. Remove selfishness and grow.


So, what. You're telling me that all men feel some sort of yearning for their long lost lusts, and this is why they feel jealous of women having theirs?

Holy double standards Batman!

It's funny that you think women can move on, but men can't. FWIW, I remember all of my past loves and lusts. And not just the face, but the whole dang body. 

If you want to reassure yourself, then maybe you too need to examine yourself instead of trying to pretend that it means more to you than to her.


----------



## wild jade

uhtred said:


> If instead of "married" you have "dates', then that describes a depressing percentage of movies. The good guy / bad guy triangle is really common in movies that appeal to a female audience.


Really? How come I never see these movies? 

I thought all rom coms were pretty much girl meets boy, at first they hate each other, then somehow they decide they love each other and live happily ever after.

And when there's a triangle, it's the ones who were truly meant to be together that end up together. 

Sigh.

Barf.


----------



## cknpro

Sounds like Jade needs to have a drink and relax


----------



## uhtred

Hunger games. (nice but weak guy, or her macho hunting friend)

City of Bones: the nice guy she has known for years, or the bad-boy shadow hunter






wild jade said:


> Really? How come I never see these movies?
> 
> I thought all rom coms were pretty much girl meets boy, at first they hate each other, then somehow they decide they love each other and live happily ever after.
> 
> And when there's a triangle, it's the ones who were truly meant to be together that end up together.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Barf.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Catherine602 said:


> I would have been moved to sympathy for these women.
> 
> Disgusting what people think is alright. *(1)Just imagining these inhuman men mistreating humans and getting a kick out of it.* *(2)That is what happens when people of low and corrupt character amass ascendancy and power, they abuse. *
> 
> I suppose these cretins are living among normal humans now or are they dead of drug and drink.
> 
> You have a problem but it's generational, thank God.


Surprised this thread popped up. Got several more pages to go, but I'm calling BS on this post. 

(1) A pox on all of them! Or maybe, freaks are going to be freaks. I have zero sympathy for either the roadies nor the idiot girls that debase themselves just to say that they "pleased the band". These girls aren't victims, and these roadies aren't forced to live the lives of losers. They are free to walk away anytime they want.

(2) While I agree in principle, and I'll even say the band/groupies used their "power" for depravity, I think it falls well short when compared to people with real power who have the ability to build or ruin lives on a whim. Again, the band/groupies in this example only have power that these "victims" are willing to give to them. If the girls do not want to be debased, thought of as sexual objects or live with regrets later in life - don't go to the dressing rooms to party with the band.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wild jade said:


> I don't think it's always been this way. Yes, there are a number of cultures that fear and repress women's sexuality and have all kinds of weird notions about how women shouldn't like sex but do it dutifully for their husbands.
> 
> But there are others that know that women too have sexual desires and needs. And that it's no dirtier for a woman to enjoy sex than a man.
> 
> As a non-recovered "skank" myself, I think those that insist on shaming slvts deserve to end up in relationships where their partners don't want to have sex with them.
> 
> You know, karma and all.


The original post - from what I can remember - was that the woman misrepresented herself. I think as a part of exploring intimacy within the relationship, at least one person will want to venture into a variety of actions. In this case, it was the OP. She said she never did certain acts, never will and stop asking. Later on he found out that she did indeed do those acts before and enjoyed them. It sounds like this thread wouldn't apply to you because I'm guessing you would still be open to being sexually adventurous with your partner. But what do you do with the fact that the woman you love LIED to you about intimacy AND told the OP that there will be no discussion about the lies told? Before people pull the "all relationships are unique card" consider this analogy:

You and your spouse scrimp and save to try to pay for your child's college education. All this time, you are sacrificing things that you may enjoy - vacations, new ATV, new shotgun, etc. etc. After you pay off the tuition bill with those savings, you find out that your spouse could have paid the bill in full IF he/she chose to; however, they didn't want to give away this special money set aside "just because", and no reason given. 

Or you find out that you and your spouse are living in a 1500 SQFt home with one bathroom. You later find out that your spouse could have easily bought a house twice as large with multiple bathrooms and a regular maid. While you may have been happy in the smaller home, would you not later be upset if you realized you could have had something nicer except your spouse chose not to allow it to happen?

That's the point of the thread. It's not a situation where the wife could not because of health reason or that the acts were never enjoyable in the first place. Actually, we never found out. I think this thread would have went a lot differently if the wife would have been honest about why she did not partake in these acts with her H but had no issues with an earlier BF. Maybe the thread never gets started if the communication was clear up front.


----------



## wild jade

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The original post - from what I can remember - was that the woman misrepresented herself. I think as a part of exploring intimacy within the relationship, at least one person will want to venture into a variety of actions. In this case, it was the OP. She said she never did certain acts, never will and stop asking. Later on he found out that she did indeed do those acts before and enjoyed them. It sounds like this thread wouldn't apply to you because I'm guessing you would still be open to being sexually adventurous with your partner. But what do you do with the fact that the woman you love LIED to you about intimacy AND told the OP that there will be no discussion about the lies told? Before people pull the "all relationships are unique card" consider this analogy:
> 
> You and your spouse scrimp and save to try to pay for your child's college education. All this time, you are sacrificing things that you may enjoy - vacations, new ATV, new shotgun, etc. etc. After you pay off the tuition bill with those savings, you find out that your spouse could have paid the bill in full IF he/she chose to; however, they didn't want to give away this special money set aside "just because", and no reason given.
> 
> Or you find out that you and your spouse are living in a 1500 SQFt home with one bathroom. You later find out that your spouse could have easily bought a house twice as large with multiple bathrooms and a regular maid. While you may have been happy in the smaller home, would you not later be upset if you realized you could have had something nicer except your spouse chose not to allow it to happen?
> 
> That's the point of the thread. It's not a situation where the wife could not because of health reason or that the acts were never enjoyable in the first place. Actually, we never found out. I think this thread would have went a lot differently if the wife would have been honest about why she did not partake in these acts with her H but had no issues with an earlier BF. Maybe the thread never gets started if the communication was clear up front.


Truth is, my husband won't do things with me now that he used to do with me years ago. So you don't need these extravagant financial analogies to help me understand OP's POV.

Actually, I can't hardly wrap my head around these financial analogies anyway. A person's ability to perform sexual favours is the equivalent of a secret bank account? I'm dependent on my partner for all things financial? I even want a large house with a maid? Sorry. Can't relate to any of this at all.

Agree that OP's wife could easily clear up the why's by explaining them. But I can't help but suspect that much like this thread, the why's were explained and explained, but then rejected as "can't be right" in favour of "she was more attracted to him than me".


----------



## Vega

wild jade said:


> Agree that OP's wife could easily clear up the why's by explaining them. But I can't help but suspect that much like this thread, the why's were explained and explained, but then rejected as "can't be right" in favour of "she was more attracted to him than me".


I've had the same impression, WJ, especially after reading the OPs last post on this thread. He basically said (to paraphrase) he was going to buy some lube and an outfit for his wife for Christmas and that she'd "better" perform. 

Doesn't seem like he even attempted to delve more deeply into why she felt the way she did, OR, if she DID explain it to him, he simply rejected her explanation, no matter how reasonable it may have been. 

Also, he may have interpreted her description, "It was alright (said with a shrug of the shoulders)" as, "WOW! I really, really LIKED it! too bad you ain't gettin' none! Ha, ha! (sticks tongue out)" We also don't know the conversation that he overheard. For all we know she may have been telling her friend something about it that she DIDN'T like.

There was just something about the OP's posts that were kind of...'off'.


----------



## Catherine602

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Surprised this thread popped up. Got several more pages to go, but I'm calling BS on this post.
> 
> (1) A pox on all of them! Or maybe, freaks are going to be freaks. I have zero sympathy for either the roadies nor the idiot girls that debase themselves just to say that they "pleased the band". These girls aren't victims, and these roadies aren't forced to live the lives of losers. They are free to walk away anytime they want.
> 
> (2) While I agree in principle, and I'll even say the band/groupies used their "power" for depravity, I think it falls well short when compared to people with real power who have the ability to build or ruin lives on a whim. Again, the band/groupies in this example only have power that these "victims" are willing to give to them. If the girls do not want to be debased, thought of as sexual objects or live with regrets later in life - don't go to the dressing rooms to party with the band.


I am so weary of the often repeated belief that men are absolved of the sin of sexual immorality as if repeating it makes it true. The rationale is that they are entitled to every unprotected vj that comes their way. 

It astounds me that men who have mothers, wives and daughters don't want men to exercise the same control over their sexuality as they demand of women. 

There are gradations of power? Really, well you are wrong. Power is power. A beggar can take advantage of a street urchin's naivety and get him to steal for him. The power over the child is every bit as real as the power a factory owner over his employees. 

If the girls are debased, the band members are in the same pot. The depravity of treating humans with disrespect just because you can is a reflection of morals and character. The same reflection on the character of girls who cater to them and allow their moral depravity.

Men and women are judged by the same yardstick even in matter of sex. If you are a believer you know that. This culture may excuse the moral lapses of men in the area of sex but it is a false distinction. 

Men (archetypal) believe the evil effects only women so they persist this belief. They fail to connect the dots. It has a profound effect on their lives because they go to women for warmth, love and intimacy. The very same gender they judge with a false yardstick. Guess how that works. 

We are not islands, men are connected to wives, girl children, mothers and aunts. They suffer for the injustice of a double moral standard through these relationships. 

We often forget the one crucial element that supports a civilized society and provides further evidence of the bonds that hold men and women together. The moral code, it matters. Without it, men peeing on women and women allowing it would be a common occurrence. 

There is a huge body of literature: religious, humanistic, psychological and philosophical, extolling the power of the wall provided by the moral code protects both men and women from sinking into hedonism, self-indulgence and chaos. Here is a short list of the characteristics: 

1.) Being Honest, Truthful & Trustworthy.
2.). Having Integrity.
3.) *Being Caring/Compassionate/Benevolent.*
4.) Being Willing to Sacrifice.
5.) Being Just & Fair.
6.) Being Cooperative.
7.) Being Persevering/Diligent.
8.) Keeps Promises.
9.) *Does No Harm.*
10.) *Takes Personal Responsibility.*
11.) *Have Empathy*.
12.) *Have Respect*.
13.) Have Patience.
14.) Being Forgiving.
15.) *Maintains self-control.*
16.) Makes Peace.
17.) Loyalty/Fidelity.
18.) Tolerance.
19.) *Benefiting Others.*
20.) Having Courage.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Catherine602 said:


> I am so weary of the often repeated belief that men are absolved of the sin of sexual immorality as if repeating it makes it true. The rationale is that they are entitled to every unprotected vj that comes their way.
> 
> It astounds me that men who have mothers, wives and daughters don't want men to exercise the same control over their sexuality as they demand of women.
> 
> There are gradations of power? Really, well you are wrong. Power is power. *A beggar can take advantage of a street urchin's naivety and get him to steal for him. The power over the child is every bit as real as the power a factory owner over his employees.*
> 
> If the girls are debased, the band members are in the same pot. The depravity of treating humans with disrespect just because you can is a reflection of morals and character. The same reflection on the character of girls who cater to them and allow their moral depravity.


You have a good comprehensive list that I think is a good moral framework. I can't argue against it and I try to live my life according to what you have in your list. 

I can't argue the value judgements made about the roadies acting like morally bankrupt jackasses. I would never do that and I most certainly teach my daughters that being with people who view sex in that way will only lead you down a path of misery and ultimately result in a loss of respect for self. You're right. The roadies shouldn't be treating women this way. It's also a free country, and there are no crimes on our books today that punish people for being lewd. The conclusion you drew from my earlier remarks is that we need to hold these guys accountable and not give them free passes. Great, except in that environment you're not going to get far with that. Again, unless these girls are being raped, there's no legal recourse. The only recourse you have is for people to get so fed up with this type of repugnant behavior that they decide to no longer consume the product. If we - as a group - refuse to purchase the tickets and buy the albums of music groups who treat women like playthings then that will hold these men accountable. 

More generally, if women as a group would cut off these bad boys who are objectively not marriage material then you will see a lot more men steer away from becoming bad boys. Same for bad girls. If men steer clear and only go after women who want meaningful relationships only with a man then you will see less women behaving as wild things too. 

The bolded part is composed of strawman arguments. It's not the same. Street urchins being coerced into stealing by an adult is a clear case of a power imbalance because that child is looking for some sort of parental love and acceptance - perhaps a stable family for food, shelter and love. Same with the factory owner and employee relationship where the employee is relying on the owner for a livelihood. These groupies, OTOH, are NOT in a relationship that has a power imbalance. They are not seeking a stable home environment from the roadies. They are not looking for a livelihood from these roadies. They are star struck and are trying to check off a box to say that they got close to someone famous. While most assuredly these women have some psychological issues to allow themselves to be treated this way, it's NOT THE SAME as your other examples and not a simple case of power exerted over another. 

If you look at it in terms of a hierarchy of needs, your examples of the beggar child and the employee are near the base of the pyramid while what these women are seeking is something much higher towards the top. A power imbalance that you put yourself into due to you feeling awestruck by a famous person (or even people associated with famous people) is not the same as a homeless orphan trying to latch onto a parental figure or an employee being exploited by his/her boss.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wild jade said:


> Truth is, my husband won't do things with me now that he used to do with me years ago. So you don't need these extravagant financial analogies to help me understand OP's POV.
> 
> Actually, I can't hardly wrap my head around these financial analogies anyway. *A person's ability to perform sexual favours is the equivalent of a secret bank account?* I'm dependent on my partner for all things financial? I even want a large house with a maid? Sorry. Can't relate to any of this at all.
> 
> Agree that OP's wife could easily clear up the why's by explaining them. But I can't help but suspect that much like this thread, the why's were explained and explained, but then rejected as "can't be right" in favour of "she was more attracted to him than me".


The example of your husband no longer doing the same things with you today that he used to in the past is not the same as what was described in the OP. In your cause you at least had the opportunity to explore intimacy with your spouse even if things are somewhat different now. The OP never had that chance despite his spouse enjoying the exploration of intimacy in the past. The point of my analogies is that your SO has the means to build something deeper with you but he/she refused to do so for no good reason at all. 

IMHO, it's not the specific sex acts themselves, I think it's the refusal to explore intimacy as a couple.


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## Personal

...


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## wild jade

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The example of your husband no longer doing the same things with you today that he used to in the past is not the same as what was described in the OP. In your cause you at least had the opportunity to explore intimacy with your spouse even if things are somewhat different now. The OP never had that chance despite his spouse enjoying the exploration of intimacy in the past. The point of my analogies is that your SO has the means to build something deeper with you but he/she refused to do so *for no good reason at all. *
> 
> IMHO, it's not the specific sex acts themselves, I think it's the refusal to explore intimacy as a couple.


I could equally call what my husband has done a bait and switch if I wanted to. But I don't because I don't think that's fair to him or to us.

For OP, there just is no good reason, and never could be a good reason. Nothing except her compliance will satisfy him because it isn't really intimacy he's after, but competition with the OM. He had something that OP didn't, damn it, and that's just not fair. 

Just because someone has money doesn't mean they are obliged to spend it how I think they should. And just because someone has a body doesn't mean they are obliged to offer it up however I want them to.

I'm not quite sure how to express this exactly but there's something very strange about this idea that someone else's resources should be totally at your disposal and discretion. If they are joint resources, then both should have a say in how they are used. If they are not joint resources, and do not really belong to you, then trying to control them isn't anything but ... controlling. 

At least IMO


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## Plan 9 from OS

wild jade said:


> I could equally call what my husband has done a bait and switch if I wanted to. But I don't because I don't think that's fair to him or to us.
> 
> For OP, there just is no good reason, and never could be a good reason. Nothing except her compliance will satisfy him because it isn't really intimacy he's after, but competition with the OM. He had something that OP didn't, damn it, and that's just not fair.
> 
> Just because someone has money doesn't mean they are obliged to spend it how I think they should. And *(1)just because someone has a body doesn't mean they are obliged to offer it up however I want them to.*
> 
> I'm not quite sure how to express this exactly but *(2)there's something very strange about this idea that someone else's resources should be totally at your disposal and discretion.* If they are joint resources, then both should have a say in how they are used. If they are not joint resources, and do not really belong to you, then trying to control them isn't anything but ... controlling.
> 
> At least IMO


To be clear, we're talking about a couple who is married and there was no prenup prior to the marriage.

(1) Sure, no one is duty bound to offer up his/her body upon demand by a spouse. In a loving/fulfilling marriage, you wouldn't have to. Each spouse would WANT to freely give of themselves to the other in all facets of the marriage - including intimacy. The original poster stated in this thread that his wife enjoyed the type of intimate acts with a prior BF that she denied to him. It's her right to do that. It's also his right to reassess the marriage to see if he really felt like he has a partner that is completely in love with him. Bottom line is neither have to feel coerced into living in a marriage that is not fulfilling.

(2) In my marriage we have joint funds. I've heard of people whose marital property was almost completely divided between "his" and "hers". I couldn't live in a marriage like that. It tells me that the couple is not fully committed to the marriage. That's my opinion. If you disagree, then no sweat.


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## Wontonga

I'm a firm believer of doing what your spouse wants. You should not say 'no' to a sexual or loving act (within reason of course) or he can find it somewhere else. Your body is your temple and his playground. This is especially true if she's done these things with other men already. 

That's my $.02


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## MAJDEATH

nogutsnoglory said:


> So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
> I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
> Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.
> 
> Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.
> 
> Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?
> 
> I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.
> 
> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.
> 
> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.


Women are multi-faceted, they want the safety and security of a committed marriage, but also want the option of engaging their desires to try new things, usually during their younger years. And there is a belief that they must not reveal all before marriage, because they don't want their future husband to judge them for all of their behaviors. Of course they can explain it away by saying what they did with those OM didn't matter, because they love only you and they want you to be the one to grow old with them.

I also did not realize how many partners my W had before marriage. Found out many years later it was around 15. Would I have still married her? Yes. But married with complete honesty would have been better.


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## Catherine602

Personal said:


> Although men peeing on women and women allowing it isn't done by everyone, it isn't that uncommon and it certainly isn't always done with ill intent.


I never knew such a thing existed. Sounds degrading and disgusting. What pleasure can anyone derive out of peeing on someone. The receipt certainly gets nothing out of it.


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## uhtred

Really not my kink, but there are some people who enjoy it, both doing and receiving. I assume is is some sort of D/S play. There are people who enjoy being humiliated as part of sex play.

I guess its no weirder than spanking (which is in the range of things I could find fun).






Catherine602 said:


> I never knew such a thing existed. Sounds degrading and disgusting. What pleasure can anyone derive out of peeing on someone. The receipt certainly gets nothing out of it.


----------



## Catherine602

Wontonga said:


> I'm a firm believer of doing what your spouse wants. You should not say 'no' to a sexual or loving act (within reason of course) or he can find it somewhere else. Your body is your temple and his playground. This is especially true if she's done these things with other men already.
> 
> That's my $.02


I don't get the logic of your belief. 

If it's a loving act, why would the man find it so easy fall out of love with his wife over a sex act? I assume he then falls in love again with a more compliant replacement. 

I would not advise men or women to follow this belief. Our bodies are our temples and ours alone. Each one has a head designed to rule over their body. 

We only get one body each. They all have heads and they are all blessed with autonomy. There are no extra ones around to use as playgrounds for that reason.


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## Catherine602

uhtred said:


> Really not my kink, but there are some people who enjoy it, both doing and receiving. I assume is is some sort of D/S play. There are people who enjoy being humiliated as part of sex play.
> 
> I guess its no weirder than spanking (which is in the range of things I could find fun).


:surprise:


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## Personal

...


----------



## MrsHolland

Personal said:


> I also never knew such a thing existed either, until I started dating the girl (she was 16 I was 17) who eventually became my first wife. She wanted it and initiated it fairly early into our relationship, so it went from there.
> 
> Successfully sharing such activity through an on-going loving relationship, requires a considerable amount of trust plus a sense of safety, a high level of intimacy and a desire to share beyond what most are willing to do.
> 
> As to what pleasure can be derived from peeing on someone, for me it feels pretty good knowing someone will let you do that to them and or wants you to do that to them. I like the dominance and sharing, plus the considerable trust and intimacy, while the waterfall visual of it on my sexual partner/s can be quite titillating as well.
> 
> As to receiving it can be warming, there can be submission and or sharing, plus plenty of trust and intimacy, while the visual can be titillating as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been with three women who have partaken in such activity with me, all of whom have been into receiving with two of them into giving and receiving. The first two brought it up because they wanted to play that way. While I brought it up with the third (my now wife) because I thought she might be happy to play that way, which as it turns out she was and is still is.
> 
> Some men and women are into it some aren't, it really isn't a big deal when all participants are informed and consenting.
> 
> *Funnily enough I haven't brought it up with all of the women I have been with, because I didn't feel like going there with them. So I have done it with some women and wouldn't do it with others*, since each new sexual relationship has always been journey that relates only to who I am with at the time.
> 
> So what may be a thing with one isn't and hasn't always been a thing with several others, and yet it can still become a thing with another after having not gone there with others for a while.
> 
> Incidentally through my 20+ year sexual relationship with my wife, she has had no interest in spanking since she feels it would be humiliating for her.


Heads up for you mate, they are all on another website whining about *"why he did it for other women, but not me?"*


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## Personal

...


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## Spotthedeaddog

Catherine602 said:


> I don't get the logic of your belief.
> 
> If it's a loving act, why would the man find it so easy fall out of love with his wife over a sex act? I assume he then falls in love again with a more compliant replacement.
> 
> I would not advise men or women to follow this belief. Our bodies are our temples and ours alone. Each one has a head designed to rule over their body.
> 
> We only get one body each. They all have heads and they are all blessed with autonomy. There are no extra ones around to use as playgrounds for that reason.


That's _your_ belief. Doesn't work with _other_ people.
Some people real do get fired up in the kink, others do not. There's a reason it's called "alternative" not "mainstream".

Some people collect stamps. I honestly really cannot for the life of me understand the interest.
Or some people buy [used] celebrity clothing or sexual fetish used clothing - does absolutely nothing for me; but can't deny that many people find it venerating!

He would "fall out of love" as "sharing experiences" is important part of mens' needs (check the HNHN), so she's not going there, putting up barriers, and effectively rejecting part of him. Depending on how important or overly focussed her is, it could become a major issue.

In some cases - and I don't think we've covered this yet: is often the refusal can because of finding it very unpleasant or unpleasant side effects. eg with anal it can result in pain (especially with a partner who shoves or tenses at wrong times) and days of near incontinence - not for everyone, but when such things happen; it's a lot easier to say "yeah tried it once/twice but it _really_ hurt and sucked for days so just really don't want to go there again" which can often relieve curiousity with a loving partner (and with the non-loving ones, well f... them). But I'm assuming we're discussing either the "once to experiement" (isn't such a big deal), or the "yeah used to do that every morning/month/birthdays"

I have heard of similar where boyfriends/husbands were especially romantic, going all out with dinners out, trips away, or roses and songs on the balcony type stuff (that one was more humorous romantic that classic), midnight candlelight picnics, all sorts of crazy and interesting things...and then his current girlfriend wondered when the bodysnatchers came aloong and left her with Mr Vanilla Work Clone...


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## uhtred

This can get forever tangled in the idea of "want", "doesn't want". 

In one extreme, someone is pressured into doing things that they find degrading and painful. Insisting that a partner engage in submissive BDSM play for example is unreasonable and abusive.

In the other extreme, someone turns down every sex act except the the small set that they most enjoy. Someone who insists that they only sex act they are willing to perform is giving a quick HJ, when they expect a wide range of things in return is selfish. 

In-between these extremes is a wide range where things aren't clear



Catherine602 said:


> I don't get the logic of your belief.
> 
> If it's a loving act, why would the man find it so easy fall out of love with his wife over a sex act? I assume he then falls in love again with a more compliant replacement.
> 
> I would not advise men or women to follow this belief. Our bodies are our temples and ours alone. Each one has a head designed to rule over their body.
> 
> We only get one body each. They all have heads and they are all blessed with autonomy. There are no extra ones around to use as playgrounds for that reason.


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## Good Guy

Personal said:


> I also never knew such a thing existed either, until I started dating the girl (she was 16 I was 17) who eventually became my first wife. She wanted it and initiated it fairly early into our relationship, so it went from there.
> 
> Successfully sharing such activity through an on-going loving relationship, requires a considerable amount of trust plus a sense of safety, a high level of intimacy and a desire to share beyond what most are willing to do.
> 
> As to what pleasure can be derived from peeing on someone, for me it feels pretty good knowing someone will let you do that to them and or wants you to do that to them. I like the dominance and sharing, plus the considerable trust and intimacy, while the waterfall visual of it on my sexual partner/s can be quite titillating as well.
> 
> As to receiving it can be warming, there can be submission and or sharing, plus plenty of trust and intimacy, while the visual can be titillating as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been with three women who have partaken in such activity with me, all of whom have been into receiving with two of them into giving and receiving. The first two brought it up because they wanted to play that way. While I brought it up with the third (my now wife) because I thought she might be happy to play that way, which as it turns out she was and is still is.
> 
> Some men and women are into it some aren't, it really isn't a big deal when all participants are informed and consenting.
> 
> Funnily enough I haven't brought it up with all of the women I have been with, because I didn't feel like going there with them. So I have done it with some women and wouldn't do it with others, since each new sexual relationship has always been journey that relates only to who I am with at the time.
> 
> So what may be a thing with one isn't and hasn't always been a thing with several others, and yet it can still become a thing with another after having not gone there with others for a while.
> 
> Incidentally through my 20+ year sexual relationship with my wife, she has had no interest in spanking since she feels it would be humiliating for her.


So you brought it up with three women, and all three were into it? You see this reinforces the point of the thread. The chances of all three women actually being into this is close to zero. So something else is at play - you are attractive enough for them to do it anyway - the fact you've been sexually with more than three women seems to point in this direction, or you are somehow subconsciously or consciously pressuring them into it. The next partner they have they are very likely to say no to them if asked the same thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Catherine602 said:


> I never knew such a thing existed. Sounds degrading and disgusting. What pleasure can anyone derive out of peeing on someone. The receipt certainly gets nothing out of it.


Being open minded to kink as I like to think I am, I allowed this with my ex. In restrospect, degrading was what he was after.


----------



## EllisRedding

Personal said:


> Although men peeing on women and women allowing it isn't done by everyone, it isn't that uncommon and it certainly isn't always done with ill intent.


The good ole golden shower ... Not my thing but I guess that is better than the dirty sanchez, cleveland steamer, or the infamous 2 girls 1 cup :surprise:


----------



## Wontonga

Catherine602 said:


> I don't get the logic of your belief.
> 
> If it's a loving act, why would the man find it so easy fall out of love with his wife over a sex act? I assume he then falls in love again with a more compliant replacement.


No one said anything about falling out of love(?). In my eyes it makes them more susceptible to cheating though. There is always some tramp or douche bag lurking waiting for the moment to pounce. I believe that if you don't give in to each others wants every now and then (especially when in this users case it is something he REALLY likes and she used to love), your spouse has a better chance of finding those things with others.... and as I said before-- all within reason, of course.

If you always did oral as a 20 year old and loved it... why would you hold that back from your spouse? That in itself is not really love. You should be willing to please your partner and do things to pamper and dote on them.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## EllisRedding

Wontonga said:


> No one said anything about falling out of love(?). In my eyes it makes them more susceptible to cheating though. There is always some tramp or douche bag lurking waiting for the moment to pounce. I believe that if you don't give in to each others wants every now and then (especially when in this users case it is something he REALLY likes and she used to love), your spouse has a better chance of finding those things with others.... and as I said before-- all within reason, of course.
> 
> If you always did oral as a 20 year old and loved it... why would you hold that back from your spouse? That in itself is not really love. You should be willing to please your partner and do things to pamper and dote on them.


Agreed, and I think the key, as you stated, is "within reason". No one here is saying you should do things that absolutely disgust you or are unpleasant/painful. However, assuming it is neither of these, why wouldn't you want to do something that you know your SO would enjoy (this could apply to both sexual and non sexual aspects in a relationship)?

I mentioned in another thread here, but someone I know had a conversation with his W about BJs. She used to freely and frequently give him BJs but now she won't, and her rationale is b/c she is a mother (this is something that a mistress would do)  This just comes across as incredibly selfish (assuming everything else in the marriage is ok)


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## TAMAT

Personal,

You wrote, 

"Successfully sharing such activity through an on-going loving relationship, requires a considerable amount of trust plus a sense of safety, a high level of intimacy and a desire to share beyond what most are willing to do."

Very well put.

I think that many, perhaps most, never or only at first fully trust their spouses or partners to engage in sex the way they want to. 

I saw a glimpse of my Ws sexual potential when we first dated but she shut it down rather quickly. It was almost like a circuit breaker was tripped when she decided I was a keeper or didn't want to lose control. 

I suspect that is what she gave to OM1.

Tamat


----------



## Catherine602

uhtred said:


> This can get forever tangled in the idea of "want", "doesn't want".
> 
> In one extreme, someone is pressured into doing things that they find degrading and painful. Insisting that a partner engage in submissive BDSM play for example is unreasonable and abusive.
> 
> In the other extreme, someone turns down every sex act except the the small set that they most enjoy. Someone who insists that they only sex act they are willing to perform is giving a quick HJ, when they expect a wide range of things in return is selfish.
> 
> In-between these extremes is a wide range where things aren't clear


Wouldn't it be better to approach sex as a team sport? Women have sex for pleasure, love, and a need to feel special and emotionally important to her mate. 

No woman dreams of sex as a service to a man who says he loves her. She dreams of feeling special and loved. She does not equate good loving sex with "do it or else". 

What worked for me was a slow steady increase in my sexual confidence and trust in my husband. I was very inhibited when we first got married. If my husband approached me with a list of sex acts to do, I would have curled up into a ball. 

That is the best I can tell you from a woman's point of view. Don't present your mate with a list of sexual expectations, keep it to yourself. Make sure she has a large backlog of good sexual experiences and trust before you ask for unreciprocated sexual pleasure to show she loves you. 

If a woman can't reliably orgasm from basic sex, giving frequent bj will not appeal to her. Her partner may feel she should do it for him anyway because he needs it to feel loved. 

He could turn it around and make her feel loved by working on a mutually satisfying sex life before asking her for a gift.


----------



## uhtred

I absolutely agree that is how it should be. Sadly for some of us that isn't the reality. There are a significant number of sexually selfish people of both genders out there who try to get all they can from sex, while providing as little as they can in return. I wish it wasn't so. 




Catherine602 said:


> Wouldn't it be better to approach sex as a team sport? Women have sex for pleasure, love, and a need to feel special and emotionally important to her mate.
> 
> No woman dreams of sex as a service to a man who says he loves her. She dreams of feeling special and loved. She does not equate good loving sex with "do it or else".
> 
> What worked for me was a slow steady increase in my sexual confidence and trust in my husband. I was very inhibited when we first got married. If my husband approached me with a list of sex acts to do, I would have curled up into a ball.
> 
> That is the best I can tell you from a woman's point of view. Don't present your mate with a list of sexual expectations, keep it to yourself. Make sure she has a large backlog of good sexual experiences and trust before you ask for unreciprocated sexual pleasure to show she loves you.
> 
> If a woman can't reliably orgasm from basic sex, giving frequent bj will not appeal to her. Her partner may feel she should do it for him anyway because he needs it to feel loved.
> 
> He could turn it around and make her feel loved by working on a mutually satisfying sex life before asking her for a gift.


----------



## wild jade

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, and I think the key, as you stated, is "within reason". No one here is saying you should do things that absolutely disgust you or are unpleasant/painful. However, assuming it is neither of these, why wouldn't you want to do something that you know your SO would enjoy (this could apply to both sexual and non sexual aspects in a relationship)?
> 
> I mentioned in another thread here, but someone I know had a conversation with his W about BJs. She used to freely and frequently give him BJs but now she won't, and her rationale is b/c she is a mother (this is something that a mistress would do)  This just comes across as incredibly selfish (assuming everything else in the marriage is ok)


I'm not sure selfish is quite the right word. But it's a very strange attitude about what a wife and mother is or should be. Very Madonna/***** complex.


----------



## wild jade

Personal said:


> Funnily enough I haven't brought it up with all of the women I have been with, because I didn't feel like going there with them. So I have done it with some women and wouldn't do it with others, since each new sexual relationship has always been journey that relates only to who I am with at the time.
> 
> So what may be a thing with one isn't and hasn't always been a thing with several others, and yet it can still become a thing with another after having not gone there with others for a while.


I agree. The dynamic in different relationships is different, and so what may feel right in one context doesn't necessarily feel right in another. 

I don't understand why this is considered so terrible, and such an obvious sign of a lack of love or a lack of attraction or total selfishness. 

It doesn't make sense unless we see ourselves in competition with those other partners. But you can't ever compete with figments of imagination, so why bother?


----------



## Catherine602

Wontonga said:


> No one said anything about falling out of love(?). In my eyes it makes them more susceptible to cheating though. There is always some tramp or douche bag lurking waiting for the moment to pounce. I believe that if you don't give in to each others wants every now and then (especially when in this users case it is something he REALLY likes and she used to love), your spouse has a better chance of finding those things with others.... and as I said before-- all within reason, of course.
> 
> If you always did oral as a 20 year old and loved it... why would you hold that back from your spouse? That in itself is not really love. You should be willing to please your partner and do things to pamper and dote on them.


Let us get some things strait about ditching one women and finding a more compliant one. There are no female gas stations with pools of women standing around waiting to be beckoned for service. Maybe you are talking about sex workers or virtual women, AKA porn actresses. I hope not because you know what the Bible says about adultery, divorce, and fornication. 

A few isolated biblical verses cannot be used to guide complex relationships. I can quote several biblical references to the seriousness of the sins of divorce, fornication and infidelity. They are far more compelling than refusing the role of plaything. How does that fit into your theology? 

Women actually have inner lives, plans, preferences and emotions that have noting to do with their genitals. Real women may be disappointing and confusing for men who are led to believe that women are sexually unformed and need imprinting. It's much more complex. 

When you're young and filled with hormones, impatience and entitlements, who sits around and thinks. We make mistakes that start a pattern of chronic frustration and resentment.


----------



## bandit.45

The lack of understanding even the basics about how men think and feel, by the women on here, has me absolutely baffled and astonished. 

I have given you gals too much credit. Gonna have to rethink my participation in all these types of threads.


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## Catherine602

No @bandit.45 if you think we got it wrong tell us explicitly. I can understand some things about male thinking but not this concept that women are 1 sex act away from being emotionally crushed. 

It's hard to see sex in the context of a loving exchange if it is coercive. If I am not mistaken, it's more like paying auto insurance, cheater insurance, the cost of staying married.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Catherine602 said:


> It's hard to see sex in the context of a loving exchange if it is coercive. If I am not mistaken, it's more like paying auto insurance, cheater insurance, the cost of staying married.


It isn't a loving exchange. In part it goes back to the fundamental question of whether there are actually enough attractive men available to provide a partner for all the women who want to be married. If not, and the goal is not to be coercive, then society ought to do a better job of discouraging marriage and arranging for other social relationships. So that women are not motivated to marry men they do not find sexually attractive.

Because the overall advice here is very clear and mostly consistent. If you aren't getting the sex you want, up your game and become more attractive. If that doesn't work, file for divorce quickly to minimize the discomfort on both sides. Frees both of you to find someone who does find you attractive and does want to have sex with you.

To me, I think the only real area of disagreement is that the women tend to be optimistic that if the guys would up their game, they would either inspire desire in their current wife or fairly easily find another partner, and some of the guys are more pessimistic of the chances of success. Then again, that chasm between optimism and pessimism explains a huge portion of the difference between success and failure.


----------



## Good Guy

Lots of the women on here are talking about men coercing their sexually timid wives to do acts they are scared of or hated in the past. This is not the point of this thread at all. Any reasonable man will say that's completely wrong.

It's about a wife not doing something for her husband that he would love to at least try, that she enjoyed and willingly did with other men in the past. 

There are only 2 conclusions

1. She finds him sexually repulsive or doesn't love him.
2. She is using it as a form of control over him.
3. There are other issues in the marriage for her, which is the same as 1 really.

If she honestly told him why she won't do it with him, and offered some alternative, I'd be OK with that, as I would at least understand. There is no honesty in this relationship.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, and I think the key, as you stated, is "within reason". No one here is saying you should do things that absolutely disgust you or are unpleasant/painful. However, assuming it is neither of these, why wouldn't you want to do something that you know your SO would enjoy (this could apply to both sexual and non sexual aspects in a relationship)?
> 
> I mentioned in another thread here, but someone I know had a conversation with his W about BJs. She used to freely and frequently give him BJs but now she won't, and her rationale is b/c she is a mother (this is something that a mistress would do)  This just comes across as incredibly selfish (assuming everything else in the marriage is ok)


She might feel ashamed of it for some reason. She might have felt coerced in the past, and is finally finding her own voice on it.

Insisting she do something she does not feel inspired to do is very likely to be unsatisfying and resentment-building for both of you. Why not focus on what is mutually agreeable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> If she honestly told him why she won't do it with him, and offered some alternative, I'd be OK with that, as I would at least understand. There is no honesty in this relationship.


I don't think either side is obliged to offer an alternative, though I understand that could be a nice gesture. 

Ultimately, No means No, for either sex. It has to either be accepted, or the relationship ended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> She might feel ashamed of it for some reason. She might have felt coerced in the past, and is finally finding her own voice on it.
> 
> Insisting she do something she does not feel inspired to do is very likely to be unsatisfying and resentment-building for both of you. Why not focus on what is mutually agreeable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol what? No one insisted she do anything. He simply asked her a question (he was't insisting on a bj at that moment, the topic of sex had come up which is what led to that conversation).


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Catherine602 said:


> I am so weary of the often repeated belief......


Aries... yes?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wild jade said:


> I'm not sure selfish is quite the right word. But it's a very strange attitude about what a wife and mother is or should be. Very Madonna/***** complex.


The difficulty comes from the contract (vows, commitment) established in the relationship with the man/woman, that they are expected to be the _only_ permitted partner.

This results in the problem that the HD/HK partner can only seek satisfaction from one person - or must deny themselves/by denied. since such drives are extremely strong, natural, and fundamental this will cause a problem when they can only be satisfied from one permitted source! And it is not unusual that a person will feel more affection towards someone who aids and relieves them without stress, than someone who causes stress and deprivation.
this is also linked to something I addressed recently on this site, that a major factor is that women can social seek what they desire (HNHN: social contact, "honesty", friendship, financial support) more publicly and much more easily than can a man (HNHN: sex, intimate emotional support, intimate shared experiences). One party can get their relief from anybody or government, the other is limited to a very narrow selection which they much compete for. Is it then odd that the latter should feel resentful that the one person who promises love and commitment should gain what they want, yet deny the other what is only available through them.

In my own situation, I used to visit many restaurants before and during my marriage because my wife (who worked in a bank) handled the finances and hated to cook. Later (post-divorce) one of my partners use to frequently book light opera or ballet or concert tickets.
Yet my last partner used to get very annoyed that we didn't "go out" and would blame me for doing it for others, and not for her. She ignores factors like she refused to give me a time schedule, was almost always busy, and that I wasn't the one booking the tickets etc, I was only the one paying; and said partner refused to book tickets or even tell me what she wanted to see/do when given the 4 month lists. (but she'd go with her gf's at a moments notice). When we finally did go out for dinner, and took our kids, she was floored at the cost of the meal&tip, all up around $250 (everything is expensive here) and from then refused to go out to meals again "because that's a week's groceries"....but still kept accusing me of not taking her out.


----------



## Phil Anders

Personal said:


> Funnily enough I haven't brought [watersports] up with all of the women I have been with, because I didn't feel like going there with them. So I have done it with some women and wouldn't do it with others, since each new sexual relationship has always been journey that relates only to who I am with at the time.
> 
> So what may be a thing with one isn't and hasn't always been a thing with several others, and yet it can still become a thing with another after having not gone there with others for a while.





wild jade said:


> I agree. The dynamic in different relationships is different, and so what may feel right in one context doesn't necessarily feel right in another.
> 
> I don't understand why this is considered so terrible, and such an obvious sign of a lack of love or a lack of attraction or total selfishness.
> 
> It doesn't make sense unless we see ourselves in competition with those other partners. But you can't ever compete with figments of imagination, so why bother?


You may not understand, or you may come up with invidious rationalizations that dismiss it (e.g. "competition" indicative of insecurity/jealousy, a character flaw), but ultimately you don't get to decide how your partner interprets your withholding.

One key element missing from this scenario is that, presumably, none of the other women Personal "didn't feel like going there with" ever expressed a strong and consistent desire to "go there" with him. What if they had?

I assume from your posts that both of you would still advocate rejecting them on principle in that case, seeing as how _every relationship dynamic is unique and shouldn't be compared_, etc etc etc. I get that unique chemistries can develop in each pairing. But if part of that chemistry is lacking, it becomes a much tougher stance to explain neutrally when what's being refused is something your partner actively desires and you won't let them explore it: 

"Sorry babe. I know I loved doing X with Riley, Chris and Stacy, but...you see, well, it's just _different_ with you, that's all! Don't feel upset; it's not a competi--what's that? No, no other concrete reason I care to articulate, I just don't happen to want your ___ in my ___ the way I craved it with them (and still might with unknown others in future). But hey, we're totally cool--right?"

That's a far different conversation than bringing up X & hearing, "LOL! You did _what_ with your ex? That's a big _meh!_ for me!" (you're off the hook), or just tacitly neglecting to raise the prospect with your current squeeze (sleeping dog).


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Personal said:


> If the chemistry turns out to be lacking or the sexual relationship is found wanting, I have always ended the relationship.
> 
> Who cares why someone won't do something with the generic you. If you don't like someone denying you, move on, if you won't move on have the decency to stop whingeing about it.


Or perhaps you can communicate over it. Especially if there are long term considerations. An adult won't accuse a man of "whinging" or just shut him out for attempting to be "open and honest"...right....


----------



## Starstarfish

> Or perhaps you can communicate over it. Especially if there are long term considerations. An adult won't accuse a man of "whinging" or just shut him out for attempting to be "open and honest"...right....


Communication isn't really communication if there are pre-determined ways of answering that are acceptable. Because the way it keeps being explained, is that it's not really the answer of no that's unacceptable it's somehow magically wording it a specific type of way. They have to give the -real- answer and you already know what the real answer is (they liked the other guy better than you.)

And living with a relative with BPD/Narcissicm, that sounds like frequent conversations had with her. "That's not the -real- reason you are X, Y, Z you just don't know yourself well enough." That is crazy making stuff. 



> what's being refused is something your partner actively desires and you won't let them explore it:


I don't think people understand how the phrasing to these kinds of things sounds. It seems to active negate that the "it" you want to explore and utilize is another person's body. 

If you need/require/desire a specific sex act to be a regular part of sex I feel like you should be open and honest about that up front. Which doesn't seem to be the thing in nearly any of these tossed out scenarios. It's discovering that at one time someone did something else with someone else and now ... fall out.


----------



## bandit.45

Personal said:


> To me that comes across as an invitation for replacement by mistress, I hope your friend has consequently found himself an obliging mistress.


No....

...the friend either needs to learn to live without BJs or divorce her and move on.


----------



## cutebunny

@bandit.45



bandit.45 said:


> The lack of understanding even the basics about how men think and feel, by the women on here, has me absolutely baffled and astonished.
> 
> I have given you gals too much credit. Gonna have to rethink my participation in all these types of threads.


You very quick to judge and attack me on my post, but reading this makes me understand its not personal.. you just HATE woman in general


----------



## wild jade

Phil Anders said:


> You may not understand, or you may come up with invidious rationalizations that dismiss it (e.g. "competition" indicative of insecurity/jealousy, a character flaw), but ultimately you don't get to decide how your partner interprets your withholding.
> 
> One key element missing from this scenario is that, presumably, none of the other women Personal "didn't feel like going there with" ever expressed a strong and consistent desire to "go there" with him. What if they had?
> 
> I assume from your posts that both of you would still advocate rejecting them on principle in that case, seeing as how _every relationship dynamic is unique and shouldn't be compared_, etc etc etc. I get that unique chemistries can develop in each pairing. But if part of that chemistry is lacking, it becomes a much tougher stance to explain neutrally when what's being refused is something your partner actively desires and you won't let them explore it:
> 
> "Sorry babe. I know I loved doing X with Riley, Chris and Stacy, but...you see, well, it's just _different_ with you, that's all! Don't feel upset; it's not a competi--what's that? No, no other concrete reason I care to articulate, I just don't happen to want your ___ in my ___ the way I craved it with them (and still might with unknown others in future). But hey, we're totally cool--right?"
> 
> That's a far different conversation than bringing up X & hearing, "LOL! You did _what_ with your ex? That's a big _meh!_ for me!" (you're off the hook), or just tacitly neglecting to raise the prospect with your current squeeze (sleeping dog).



I would never advocate rejecting someone on principle. Or withholding.

To me withholding sounds like it's deliberate, a "I know I can give this to you and make you happy, but instead I want you to suffer." If someone is actually withholding, then you have much bigger problems than any single sex act.

But I don't think saying no is the same as withholding. Surely it's possible to just want to do something. If your wife is into pegging, are you going to go there just for her? Just because it makes her happy? Why do you assume that saying no to something like that is always a case of "yes I craved it with them because they were so hot and you are so not"?? Do you really think that's what OP's wife said? Or, is it just that he has a deep insecure need to believe his wife isn't into him.

Honestly, if hubby was into something that I was not terribly into, I might, just might do it just to make him happy. But I also might not, depending on what it was and how I was feeling. 

All I saying is that the yes in this case doesn't indicate increased attraction, desire, or love in any way. And the no isn't a rejection of him. It's of a sex act.


----------



## bandit.45

cutebunny said:


> @bandit.45
> 
> 
> 
> You very quick to judge and attack me on my post, but reading this makes me understand its not personal.. you just HATE woman in general


I don't hate women. It may sound like I do because inflammatory threads like this one get my blood boiling, but I do not hate women. I cherish women and I love being around them. They are responsible for almost of the beauty and culture and gentleness in society. A man cannot make a home a home without a woman around. 

I don't "hate" anyone, except maybe militant Islamic terrorists. 

It may feel like I have attacked you, but what I am really doing is being direct and as honest with you as I can be. Your girlfriends and enablers are the ones you need to go to if you want sunshine blown up your skirt and for someone to tell you everything will be okay and to go ahead and plow down the destructive path you have set for yourself. I would rather see you pull out of your nosedive and learn to live a healthy and honest life...with or without your husband. I stand by what I told you because you need to hear objective criticism. I don't have an axe to grind with you personally, but I can make logical deductions from your actions and behavior and attitude and give you feedback as to what I think. 

In fact, when a remorseful, repentant wayward comes on board TAM I am usually one of the first to acknowledge their remorsefulness and contriteness and I encourage them to do what they need to change and save their marriages. I have even defended many of them at risk of my own rep. It is when I encounter someone who is not remorseful or open to advice that I get my dander up and let it fly. 

When E1 first came on board I pounded on her head hard, because like you she was foggy and angry and blame shifting her bad decisions. She and I had some good knockdown drag-outs, but she came out of that fog and worked on herself, owned her sh!t, and worked with her husband to repair the marriage. Now I am one of her admirers. E1 still says stupid sh!t from time to time that makes me shake my head, but I still respect her and I learn a lot from listening to her point of view. 

And a lot of my confrontational wording comes from twenty three years in Alcoholics Ananymous, where our goal is to rip bad thinking out and expose it to the light of day. The only way to do that is to be honest, up front and pull no punches. So believe me, I am not singling you out for harsh treatment. 

In my opinion you are a victim of bad thinking and bad programming, and that has caused you to make bad decisions and has resulted in a bad situation becoming worse. Now, in your thread, you are talking about making more bad decisions that will only make your already bad situation even more dire. I would prefer you stop that behavior, and work towards healing yourself and becoming an authentic person for yourself and your children.


----------



## bandit.45

wild jade said:


> I would never advocate rejecting someone on principle. Or withholding.
> 
> To me withholding sounds like it's deliberate, a "I know I can give this to you and make you happy, but instead I want you to suffer." If someone is actually withholding, then you have much bigger problems than any single sex act.
> 
> But I don't think saying no is the same as withholding. Surely it's possible to just want to do something. If your wife is into pegging, are you going to go there just for her? Just because it makes her happy? Why do you assume that saying no to something like that is always a case of "yes I craved it with them because they were so hot and you are so not"?? Do you really think that's what OP's wife said? Or, is it just that he has a deep insecure need to believe his wife isn't into him.
> 
> Honestly, if hubby was into something that I was not terribly into, I might, just might do it just to make him happy. But I also might not, depending on what it was and how I was feeling.
> 
> All I saying is that the yes in this case doesn't indicate increased attraction, desire, or love in any way. And the no isn't a rejection of him. It's of a sex act.



I think a woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases, and to give what she wants to whom she wants. I also believe that her man has the right to reject her and move on if he cannot handle her past decisions and choices. He doesn't have to be an ass about it or tear her down in the process. All he has to say s "Sorry hon, but that won't work for me. I can't accept that, so I set you free to find a man who can." 

There are some on here who say that a person has no right to hold their spouse's past against them. I say bullsh!t on that. No shoes, no shirt, no service. I have a right to reject any prospective partner for any reason I deem fit...even if that person feels my reasoning is unreasonable. 

A man, unless there is something sexually, physically or psychologically wrong with him, needs his wife to have passionate sex with him in order for him to feel that she loves him. Is there a university "study" backing that? No. Probably not. I can only deduce that from all the anecdotal evidence I have gleaned over five years of being on this site and working through my issues and listening to the male members tell their stories. A man wants to think that his wife sees him as her hero. He wants to believe that she lusts after him and wants to bear his children. When he hears all that crap about the crazy sh!t she has done in her past, those hopes are obliterated. Is it fair the wife or girlfrien? Probably not. It is what it is. Women expect men to accept their weirdness and insecurities. Well, we should expect women to accept ours also. 

I do not deny most men are clueless when it comes to having the skills to completely satisfy a woman in every way she needs. All of us guys need work, myself especially. But since I am not on the market anymore, it is not a priority for me to be a Don Juan, or alpha male, or to be Mr. Enlightened. I just don't waste the energy on it anymore.


----------



## wild jade

bandit.45 said:


> I think a woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases, and to give what she wants to whom she wants. I also believe that her man has the right to reject her and move on if he cannot handle her past decisions and choices. He doesn't have to be an ass about it or tear her down in the process. All he has to say s "Sorry hon, but that won't work for me. I can't accept that, so I set you free to find a man who can."
> 
> There are some on here who say that a person has no right to hold their spouse's past against them. I say bullsh!t on that. No shoes, no shirt, no service. I have a right to reject any prospective partner for any reason I deem fit...even if that person feels my reasoning is unreasonable.



Yes, of course, a man has every right in the world to decide his own turn-offs and deal-breakers. No doubt. 

And if he can't handle a woman who's had a sexual past, he's better off not marrying her. Why would he want to put himself through that grief?

That said, a man is also severely limiting his options if he's going to reject every woman who has a sexual past, particularly if he has one too. And if he's going to be completely jealous, insecure, and unreasonable about it, he might just find he doesn't even get the chance to reject her.


----------



## bandit.45

wild jade said:


> Yes, of course, a man has every right in the world to decide his own turn-offs and deal-breakers. No doubt.
> 
> And if he can't handle a woman who's had a sexual past, he's better off not marrying her. Why would he want to put himself through that grief?
> 
> That said, a man is also severely limiting his options if he's going to reject every woman who has a sexual past, particularly if he has one too. And if he's going to be completely jealous, insecure, and unreasonable about it, he might just find he doesn't even get the chance to reject her.


True. 

It's all part of the mating game. But what it boils down to is what each person is willing to accept. 

My unwillingness to accept that the woman I love refuses to try things with me that she enjoyed with other men is not insecurity. I would suggest you to be very careful when you use that word. It is often used to get the upper hand in an argument when it really has nothing to do with the situation. What I am talking about is not insecurity. It is called self-respect and equity. 

She has the right to refuse, and I have the right to walk away. In the end we both lose, but we lose nothing that can't be replaced. Everyone is replaceable.


----------



## VladDracul

Personal said:


> Who cares why someone won't do something with the generic you. If you don't like someone denying you, move on, if you won't move on have the decency to stop whingeing about it.


Excellent observation.


----------



## RandomDude

What's with the fascination of people and anal?










Anyway... I do believe it's important for a spouse to give of themselves, like ex-wife had anal in the past, but offered it to me - which I declined because I just don't get the fascination of ramming a lady's anus when there is a much nicer, warmer, wetter, errr... opening elsewhere. Still, it was an important gesture in the past.

At the same time, ex-wife had group sex before we were together, with women too, and enjoyed it. I used to pressure her for it, MFF or MMF, didn't care, wanted to 'conquer' her past experiences by giving her more 'current' experiences. But I didn't realise until later that I had already conquered her past experiences by giving her an experience that to her, was more important and sacred. I also came to respect and appreciate her loyalty in spite of my own efforts to ***** her out.

So personally I see how a woman giving of herself can be a very real indicator of love, but at the same time, acknowledge that even if she doesn't give you the experiences she had in the past, doesn't mean she does not love you.


----------



## Vega

RandomDude said:


> What's with the fascination of people and anal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway... I do believe it's important for a spouse to give of themselves, like ex-wife had anal in the past, but offered it to me - which I declined because I just don't get the fascination of ramming a lady's anus when there is a much nicer, warmer, wetter, errr... opening elsewhere. Still, it was an important gesture in the past.
> 
> At the same time, ex-wife had group sex before we were together, with women too, and enjoyed it. I used to pressure her for it, MFF or MMF, didn't care, wanted to 'conquer' her past experiences by giving her more 'current' experiences. *But I didn't realise until later that I had already conquered her past experiences by giving her an experience that to her, was more important and sacred. I also came to respect and appreciate her loyalty in spite of my own efforts to ***** her out.
> *
> So personally I see how a woman giving of herself can be a very real indicator of love, but at the same time, acknowledge that *even if she doesn't give you the experiences she had in the past, doesn't mean she does not love you*.


Sounds like you really evolved (a.k.a. matured) over time, RD. 

I really wish more men could come to this realization...sooner than later.


----------



## bandit.45

> So personally I see how a woman giving of herself can be a very real indicator of love, but at the same time, acknowledge that even if she doesn't give you the experiences she had in the past, *doesn't mean she does not love you*.


That's right. 


It just makes her boring.


----------



## Buddy400

After all this time, we're still talking past each other.

The men are talking about...



bandit.45 said:


> the woman I love refuses to try things with me *that she enjoyed with other men*


The women insist that men are all requiring women to be virgins



wild jade said:


> That said, a man is also severely limiting his options if he's going to reject every woman who has a sexual past,


Really, is communication actually this hard?

Or are the women being purposely obtuse?


----------



## Buddy400

RandomDude said:


> So personally I see how a woman giving of herself can be a very real indicator of love, but at the same time, acknowledge that even if she doesn't give you the experiences she had in the past, doesn't mean she does not love you.


Well, that might not be what it means to her, but that's what it means to me. 

Just like a husband could tell his wife that his having an affair didn't mean that he didn't love her. His wife might think differently.


----------



## anonmd

Buddy400 said:


> After all this time, we're still talking past each other.
> 
> The men are talking about...
> 
> 
> 
> The women insist that men are all requiring women to be virgins
> 
> 
> 
> Really, is communication actually this hard?
> 
> Or are the women being purposely obtuse?


Discussion is pointless, understanding impossible . 

I check back in once in a while for the entertainment but this thread will only die when one or both sides gives up responding.


----------



## Good Guy

I'm a man and have no interest in ever trying anal with anyone. Biggest turn off ever.


----------



## Good Guy

I'm out. A thread where the OP states something and then people go off saying the opposite to what he said or saying he's not telling the whole story or lying, and basing their replies on what he didn't say at all. A complete waste of time. I hope people don't act like this in their professional or personal lives ...


----------



## 225985

Good Guy said:


> I'm out. A thread where the OP states something and then people go off saying the opposite to what he said or saying he's not telling the whole story or lying, and basing their replies on what he didn't say at all. A complete waste of time. I hope people don't act like this in their professional or personal lives ...


Bye


----------



## aston

techmom said:


> Ok, here is another thread about how the hubby is missing out on all of the fun while the ex boyfriends got the action. Evidently your wife does not like what she did back then, she is more mature and her tastes probably changed. Being married is different from the boyfriend relationship, it is more experimental and during this process you are finding out what you like or don't like. When you are married, you should know what your tastes are.
> 
> I now know why women hide what they did before marriage since it becomes such a big issue of being denied. I was a virgin when I married and my hubby sometimes says he wishes I had more experience in sex, he wishes I was more open to trying more things he likes. Seems men are never completely satisfied either way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That goes both ways.......women are never satisfied either. If he wants adventure then he's a pervert, if he's not adventurous then he's boring. If he talks about his kinky past with his ex, you get resentful, if he doesn't then he's hiding his past from you. Best bet just roll with the tide


----------



## See_Listen_Love

anonmd said:


> Discussion is pointless, understanding impossible .
> 
> I check back in once in a while for the entertainment but this thread will only die when one or both sides gives up responding.


I think there is a mix of logic, feelings, judgements, both on conscious and unconscious levels, and they work different for men and women.

So understanding may be possible, but having a clear cut moral answer may be impossible.


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> A
> 
> Really, is communication actually this hard?
> 
> Or are the women being purposely obtuse?


What I said there was in response to a very specific post, and not directed to the discussion at large.

The reason it's been suggested that men are looking for virgins is because the overall tone here is that they feel like they are competing with OM's of the past, and don't seem to be able to accept that someone might change how they feel about something. 

The reality is that if someone really enjoys something they will continue to do it. Full stop. So that she doesn't want to do it means the enjoyment is gone for whatever reason. Full stop. 

Does it mean OP is less attractive, less desirable, less whatever than OM? Maybe. Maybe not.

All people are doing here is offering different perspectives on what's going on. Up to OP to decide what to do with that information.


----------



## Catherine602

bandit.45 said:


> That's right.
> 
> 
> It just makes her boring.


Hmm, on the other hand, it may make him boorish and unattractive. 

I'm serious. I've never been in this position so I can only imagine how I would feel. 

It seems to me that if a man cares about the woman he is with, he would want to have sex that is good for both of them. That would over ride any thought of sex to relieve his boredom or show him love. 

Somehow, a man whose love is limited to his pleasure over mine would diminished him in my eyes. I think I would become sensitized to other request for giving him orgasms to prove my love. 

I would probably feel used and reach a tipping point where I had given enough to show I cared but got too little back in kind. I don't think I would tell my mate so to him, it may seem sudden and unfair. 

My husband told me many times that he enjoys sex and he knows I can too if I let him show me how. As a result, I have lots of reserves and like being "used" sexually. 

I am not saying this to make anyone angry. Just a window into how one woman thinks and feels. It might be good to never say or behave as if your partner needs to prove her love by sexual sacrifice. 

Women are givers but it's conditional. We need to feel that we are special to our man. Men don't purposely make women feel like they exist to fulfill a generic sexual bucket list. But the unquestioned expectations of women may seem that this is so.


----------



## Catherine602

I wonder why It's so hard for me to understand some of the anger expressed by some men. I can easily agree with my position and not feel that I am being unfair. 

Seriously, there has to be something I am missing. Maybe I am missing something with my husband? What do you think? 

I wish someone who is not angry would tell me. I do want to understand what I am missing. Please don't say all women but just tell me based on what I posted in this thread, what don't I get.


----------



## VladDracul

Catherine602 said:


> Maybe I am missing something with my husband? What do you think?


My take Cat is if you're getting what you want, or are reasonable close, you ain't missing anything.


----------



## Catherine602

@VladDracul Thank you for responding 

Thinking about the fact that so many men feel slighted when they can't get their wives to do sexual things they don't want to do. IF it is a big problem for men then its a problem for their wives. 

I think spouses should give their parters concerns high priority and not just blow them off. I can't see a compromise with this problem though it seems a zero sum sort of thing. If one person yields the other is unhappy etc.

In my case, there are many new things I've tried that did not sound appealing. Some were good, some not and some i will not try. I won't have sex outdoors I have fear of being caught and arrested. 

My husband jokingly brings it up occasionally. Is he angry, I can't tell. Knowing what I discovered, I'll have to find out. 

I do feel that trying new things at lest a few times does show trust and a desire to make your partner happy. Painful, degrading, dangerous or injurious should not be expected. Neither should involvement of other people, animals or incredibly large objects.

However, if there are strong negative feeling for whatever reason, it seems unloving to insist. The same with something she did not like it, even if it was with someone else, IMO. 

The assumption that a woman loves her current love less or find him less attractive because she tried something that she no longer likes, may be a misinterpretation. I'm sure men try things in past relationships that failed and lose their appeal. The fact that they don't want to repeat does not mean they don't love the women they are with.


----------



## Catherine602

I would not trust a man who did not reciprocate my desire to make him happy. In the long run, building trust is more important than short term compliance, IMO. Trust means your partner will not harm and that may eventually encourage a change of heart. 

I'd play it safe and refuse to try anything new with a man who could not be trusted to make my pleasure as important as his own. I might end up doing too many things I don't want or being hassled to do them. 

My desire for sex would slowly dissipate under those conditions. There is not enough love in the world to override a lack of trust.


----------



## Wolf1974

Catherine602 said:


> I wonder why It's so hard for me to understand some of the anger expressed by some men. I can easily agree with my position and not feel that I am being unfair.
> 
> Seriously, there has to be something I am missing. Maybe I am missing something with my husband? What do you think?
> 
> I wish someone who is not angry would tell me. I do want to understand what I am missing. Please don't say all women but just tell me based on what I posted in this thread, what don't I get.


I have never been in this position personally but I can understand how it could be an ultimate deal breaker. I really don't understand why anyone has trouble understanding how this could be important. If something has value to you, and you want to try it , and your spouse says no then you either learn to accept that stance or not. But to find out the answer is no to you but was yes to one or several people before.... how is that not taken personally especially if it comes with the knowldge they enjoyed it?

And that really can be anything not just sex related.

For as different as men and women are one area we are alike in is wanting to feel special in our relationship. it's difficult to feel special when things are off the table but weren't always, just not with you.

FYI I'm not angry with you


----------



## Catherine602

I think I get it now. 

There was a thread started by a man who had children from a previous marriage and did not want more. He married a woman of child bearing age who had no children of her own. 

The man refused to give his wife children because he had some already. His wife had every reason to feel that he loves her less because he will not give her what he gave his first wife. IMO. 

It's understandable to me now that a man would feel that his wife thinks less of him if she was more sexual with a former lover. I felt the man was being unreasonable but I don't think so anymore. 

And the Light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> Her husband refuses to give her children because he has some already. His wife has every reason to feel that he loves her less because he will not give her what he gave his first wife. IMO.


This may be on of the few times I disagree with you, Catherine...

If a man marries at 29, has children at age 31 and 33, divorces at 48 and remarries at 49, is he supposed to give his 37 year old wife children because he gave some to his first wife? 

I dunno. I think there's a big difference between having more children 20 years later than performing some sex act that you may have done ONCE or TWICE twenty years ago.


----------



## Catherine602

@Vega

I think they are both right. You're right, it's reasonable to be very reluctant to return to the infant, toddler and teenager phase of life in middle age. It's also reasonable for a woman to want to be a mother and feel devastated if the man who says he loves her does not want to father children with her. 

I don't know how it can be resolved though. For me, the analogy to the current topic is that I found a way to step into the shoes of men who genuinely feel hurt. I couldn't feel any sympathy for them before because I felt they wanted pleasure at the expense of the woman. 

Maybe that is true for some men but the repeated expression of genuine emotion was hard to ignore. There had to be more to the story. So I changed my view when I found a situation with some similarities. 

I still believe that changing preferences is not a reflection on the strength of love but I understand why a person might feel that way. Sometimes a frameshift in the way a situation is viewed carries the possibility of open minded discussion and even change. 

Something puzzles me still - why do women discuss details of their sex lives? What good can come of professing enjoyment of a sex act to the current man but declaring no intention of enjoying it with him??? Nothing good comes of oversharing details and being mean. 

Some men need to know and It's their right to ask on that basis. Women who feel it's intrusive should not have a relationship with men who feel they need to know details.


----------



## Wolf1974

Vega said:


> This may be on of the few times I disagree with you, Catherine...
> 
> If a man marries at 29, has children at age 31 and 33, divorces at 48 and remarries at 49, is he supposed to give his 37 year old wife children because he gave some to his first wife?
> 
> I dunno. I think there's a big difference between having more children 20 years later than performing some sex act that you may have done ONCE or TWICE twenty years ago.


Im not sure children which come with a lifetime commitment is the best example either but I can give you another real world example.

Wife and husband are on second marriage. Wife has always wanted to take a cruise as a vacation. Near bucket list level wants to try one. Husband doesn't want to go but offers her to do this instead as a girls trip so she has the opportunity to experience this thing she wants to do. She would rather do this a a couple.

She comes to find out he has done cruises before with his first wife. One was their honeymoon. The other was an anniversary. Now his honest thoughts on cruises is he can take or leave them. They are as good as any other vacation...indifferent but his X wife wanted to go so they went. New wife wants to go desperately but he won't because he has "been there done that". So how is this wife not supposed to feel upset about this? This is important to her, her could take or leave it, so why not go? Of course she would be reasonable to draw a conclusion that she isn't as important as the first wife right?


----------



## WorkingWife

marduk said:


> ...In any of these cases I could see (myself included) how I'd worry that my wife had a better sex life in her past than I am giving her now. And be -- perhaps -- insecure about it.
> 
> If I'm not getting the kind of sex I want, or the amount of sex I want, I may worry that it's because she's not as attracted to me as she has been to other guys.
> 
> If I'm not giving my wife the kind of sex she wants, or the amount of sex she wants, I may worry that other guys have, and she now misses having sex with them instead of me....


I think what you said here is brilliant and spot on.

In the original post of this thread the OP said:

_"...I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing...."_

And I wanted to respond that he actually did NOT marry a "party girl," who does wild/crazy sexual things. Rather he married a woman who did those things in the past and is *no longer* that person, for whatever reason(s).

However, all the insecurities you describe are completely reasonable and exactly how I would feel if I was with a guy who did XYZ with other people but would not with me. I might consciously know the man I married is not like that, but that knowledge would not necessarily stop me from feeling he enjoyed prior relationships more, or cared for those people more, or was more intimate with them than he is with me, if he would not do XYZ with me. Especially if XYZ was things I wanted to do with him that he did not want to do with me.

(Which may explain why many people lie about/minimize their past....)


----------



## Vega

Wolf1974 said:


> So how is this wife not supposed to feel upset about this? This is important to her, her could take or leave it, so why not go? Of course she would be reasonable to draw a conclusion that she isn't as important as the first wife right?


No. She would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that the _cruise_ isn't something that 'floats his boat' (sorry. Couldn't resist...) Got nothing to do with _her_. 

I happen to love bowling. As much as I would love for my next SO to like it as much as me, I don't require anyone to do it. I'll still go...either WITH or WITHOUT them. 

If I found out they used to do it with someone else, it wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't take it as a sign that they don't love _me_ as much as the person they bowled with, but that they don't love _bowling_ as much as they used to.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> @Vega
> 
> It's also reasonable for a woman to want to be a mother and feel devastated if the man who says he loves her does not want to father children with her.


If she wants to have children so badly, then she should have that conversation with EVERYONE she _dates_; and not wait until after she falls in love before revealing that to her potential partner.


----------



## I Don't Know

Catherine602 said:


> I think I get it now.
> 
> There was a thread started by a man who had children from a previous marriage and did not want more. He married a woman of child bearing age who had no children of her own.
> 
> The man refuses to give his wife children because he had some already. His wife had every reason to feel that he loves her less because he will not give her what he gave his first wife. IMO.
> 
> It's understandable to me now that a man would feel that his wife thinks less of him if she was more sexual with a former lover. I felt the man was being unreasonable but I don't think so anymore.
> 
> And the Light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it.


:surprise: What just happened here? Someone actually changed their mind on this subject?! I thought these opinions were set in stone. :grin2:

Thanks @Catherine602 for being open to "our" view point and congrats on having the presence of mind to make the connection between the two situations. I'm not sure I would have.



WorkingWife said:


> I think what you said here is brilliant and spot on.
> 
> In the original post of this thread the OP said:
> 
> _"...I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing...."_
> 
> And I wanted to respond that he actually did NOT marry a "party girl," who does wild/crazy sexual things. Rather he married a woman who did those things in the past and is *no longer* that person, for whatever reason(s).
> 
> However, all the insecurities you describe are completely reasonable and exactly how I would feel if I was with a guy who did XYZ with other people but would not with me. I might consciously know the man I married is not like that, but that knowledge would not necessarily stop me from feeling he enjoyed prior relationships more, or cared for those people more, or was more intimate with them than he is with me, if he would not do XYZ with me. *Especially if XYZ was things I wanted to do with him that he did not want to do with me.*
> 
> (Which may explain why many people like about/minimize their past....)


I feel like this is key. I think if you're absolutely 100% happy with how things are then it probably doesn't matter. But if you feel like somethings missing or would like things to be just a little "better" then this can become an issue.


----------



## Wolf1974

Vega said:


> No. She would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that the _cruise_ isn't something that 'floats his boat' (sorry. Couldn't resist...) Got nothing to do with _her_.
> 
> I happen to love bowling. As much as I would love for my next SO to like it as much as me, I don't require anyone to do it. I'll still go...either WITH or WITHOUT them.
> 
> If I found out they used to do it with someone else, it wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't take it as a sign that they don't love _me_ as much as the person they bowled with, but that they don't love _bowling_ as much as they used to.


Then I would say your personality is very very different than most as many people would be hurt by this....men or women.


----------



## uhtred

Children are a really interesting example. I think though that the life-long commitment, and concerns for the welfare of the children themselves makes it different.

It is a topic that comes up - and is in a lot of ways more difficult than the sex-act topic.





Vega said:


> This may be on of the few times I disagree with you, Catherine...
> 
> If a man marries at 29, has children at age 31 and 33, divorces at 48 and remarries at 49, is he supposed to give his 37 year old wife children because he gave some to his first wife?
> 
> I dunno. I think there's a big difference between having more children 20 years later than performing some sex act that you may have done ONCE or TWICE twenty years ago.


----------



## I Don't Know

uhtred said:


> Children are a really interesting example. I think though that the life-long commitment, and concerns for the welfare of the children themselves makes it different.
> 
> It is a topic that comes up - and is in a lot of ways more difficult than the sex-act topic.


But the feelings involved are very similar. I think that's what Catherine was getting at.


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> Im not sure children which come with a lifetime commitment is the best example either but I can give you another real world example.
> 
> Wife and husband are on second marriage. Wife has always wanted to take a cruise as a vacation. Near bucket list level wants to try one. Husband doesn't want to go but offers her to do this instead as a girls trip so she has the opportunity to experience this thing she wants to do. She would rather do this a a couple.
> 
> She comes to find out he has done cruises before with his first wife. One was their honeymoon. The other was an anniversary. Now his honest thoughts on cruises is he can take or leave them. They are as good as any other vacation...indifferent but his X wife wanted to go so they went. New wife wants to go desperately but he won't because he has "been there done that". So how is this wife not supposed to feel upset about this? This is important to her, her could take or leave it, so why not go? Of course she would be reasonable to draw a conclusion that she isn't as important as the first wife right?


Plus, I would think/hope the topic of children would come up well in advance before any serious commitment is made. I would be curious to hear if there are any couples who get married before even discussing their thoughts on children (I would guess this would be very few but who knows).


----------



## See_Listen_Love

WorkingWife said:


> I think what you said here is brilliant and spot on.
> 
> In the original post of this thread the OP said:
> 
> _"...I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing...."_
> 
> And I wanted to respond that he actually did NOT marry a "party girl," who does wild/crazy sexual things. Rather he married a woman who did those things in the past and is *no longer* that person, for whatever reason(s).
> 
> However, all the insecurities you describe are completely reasonable and exactly how I would feel if I was with a guy who did XYZ with other people but would not with me. I might consciously know the man I married is not like that, but that knowledge would not necessarily stop me from feeling he enjoyed prior relationships more, or cared for those people more, or was more intimate with them than he is with me, if he would not do XYZ with me. Especially if XYZ was things I wanted to do with him that he did not want to do with me.
> 
> (Which may explain why many people like about/minimize their past....)


His feelings may not know about the time-dimension and react real-time to all things like they happen right now. So that is his problem. It is not in the past for him.


----------



## Good Guy

I happen to love bowling. As much as I would love for my next SO to like it as much as me, I don't require anyone to do it. I'll still go...either WITH or WITHOUT them. 


So you are saying you would do those sex acts with someone else if your SO wouldn't do them?


----------



## wild jade

Catherine602 said:


> Something puzzles me still - why do women discuss details of their sex lives? What good can come of professing enjoyment of a sex act to the current man but declaring no intention of enjoying it with him??? Nothing good comes of oversharing details and being mean.


This would certainly seem to be a takeaway from this thread. Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.

But I think in general we want to be true to ourselves, and to not have to live with a mask on all the time. But of course there's fallout from that. A guy may no longer love us when he knows the truth. He might not even like us.

Personally, I'm in favour of dropping the mask early on, and those who're going to have a problem with me can just go along their merry way.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> I happen to love bowling. As much as I would love for my next SO to like it as much as me, I don't require anyone to do it. I'll still go...either WITH or WITHOUT them.
> 
> 
> So you are saying you would do those sex acts with someone else if your SO wouldn't do them?


Not at all. I'm saying that if I want to do something that my SO doesn't want to do, I'd do it myself. I've been bowling many, many times alone. 

If my spouse wants to do a specific sex act with me, GREAT! But if not, that's still GREAT. I'm not going to hold an act or two against them and think that it's *ME* they don't love.


----------



## WorkingWife

I Don't Know said:


> :surprise: What just happened here? Someone actually changed their mind on this subject?! I thought these opinions were set in stone. :grin2:
> 
> Thanks @Catherine602 for being open to "our" view point and congrats on having the presence of mind to make the connection between the two situations. I'm not sure I would have.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like this is key. I think if you're absolutely 100% happy with how things are then it probably doesn't matter. But if you feel like somethings missing or would like things to be just a little "better" then this can become an issue.


Yep. I agree.

I also think WHY they won't do it for the new partner matters.

From the "but I don't want to" person's point of view, I think it may also matter if XYZ was emotionally or physically destructive to them. Let's say someone did drugs, had group sex, went skinny dipping with groups of friends, spent more than they could afford, had a more lucrative job but one they hated and that caused tons of stress, etc. in the past -- for whatever reason, that behavior brought pain into their life, but now there new partner is resentful they won't do that again "for them." I think that's not just unfair, but actually evidence of non-caring to push your spouse to do those things.

But what if they used to pick up after themselves, cook, clean, bring home flowers, buy expensive gifts they could afford, give lots of oral sex, wear sexy things around the house, do strip teases, etc. Now they don't want to not because those things distressed them in anyway but simply because, meh, they don't feel like it. Giving oral sex isn't somthing they always hated but did anyhow, and they don't now have TMJ that they didn't have before -- it just bores them. Frankly, they don't feel like putting in the effort so they're not going to.

That would be very revealing to the new "non" recipient about where they stood.

Or like Catherine's example of children with first spouse but not the second. True, they may not have realized how much work kids were with first spouse and now they do, but that they would deny the second spouse that experience if they really want it, does show their true priorities. 

I think many people do get more honest with themselves about not really wanting to do certain things as they age. But I also think many of us can get more selfish and lazy in our relationships. When your spouse won't do something you really want for you that they did for others with no negative consequences, it is telling.


----------



## Wolf1974

wild jade said:


> This would certainly seem to be a takeaway from this thread. Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.
> 
> But I think in general we want to be true to ourselves, and to not have to live with a mask on all the time. But of course there's fallout from that. A guy may no longer love us when he knows the truth. He might not even like us.
> 
> Personally, I'm in favour of dropping the mask early on, and those who're going to have a problem with me can just go along their merry way.


Certainly wouldn't work for me, I couldn't be with a woman who couldn't have an adult conversation about her past. However everyone is different and if that's too difficult a topic we just wouldn't be compatable for one another.


----------



## Catherine602

uhtred said:


> Children are a really interesting example. I think though that the life-long commitment, and concerns for the welfare of the children themselves makes it different.
> 
> It is a topic that comes up - and is in a lot of ways more difficult than the sex-act topic.


I didn't consider the details.  It's the similarity of human emotions evoked by insensitivity towards the needs of a loved one that caught my attention. Changing needs, likes and dislikes are common in LTR. Some have little or no effect on the relationship some have a serious impact. 

Those that do, should not be dismissed cavalierly. Agree to disagree if it comes to that but refusal to even communicate and resolve a situation that causes pain is not loving. That's how I feel.


----------



## Catherine602

wild jade said:


> This would certainly seem to be a takeaway from this thread. Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.
> 
> But I think in general we want to be true to ourselves, and to not have to live with a mask on all the time. But of course there's fallout from that. A guy may no longer love us when he knows the truth. He might not even like us.
> 
> Personally, I'm in favour of dropping the mask early on, and those who're going to have a problem with me can just go along their merry way.


I agree, a person has the right to know who you are getting if a serious relationship is developing. 

Revealing the number, nature and ending of past relationships is part of letting your partner know who you are. Revealing sexual preferences is also important to make sure that they are not diametrically opposed. Asking if a someone likes a sex act is different from interrogating them about who they did it with and how many times. 

No judgement on persons who need to know. Don't hate them but think carefully about getting into a relationship. At the very lest, find out why they want to burrow so deeply into bed with you and the men in your past.


----------



## Catherine602

I Don't Know said:


> :surprise: What just happened here? Someone actually changed their mind on this subject?! I thought these opinions were set in stone. :grin2:
> 
> Thanks @Catherine602 for being open to "our" view point and congrats on having the presence of mind to make the connection between the two situations. I'm not sure I would have.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like this is key. I think if you're absolutely 100% happy with how things are then it probably doesn't matter. But if you feel like somethings missing or would like things to be just a little "better" then this can become an issue.


Amazing huh.  

The value of TAM - hearing the same thing over and over makes you think.


----------



## Vega

Catherine602 said:


> I agree, a person has the right to know who you are getting if a serious relationship is developing.
> 
> Revealing the number, nature and ending of past relationships is part of letting your partner know who you are. Revealing sexual preferences is also important to make sure that they are not diametrically opposed. Asking if a someone likes a sex act is different from interrogating them about who they did it with and how many times.
> 
> No judgement on persons who need to know. Don't hate them but think carefully about getting into a relationship. At the very lest, find out why they want to burrow so deeply into bed with you and the men in your past.


I agree. To a point.

There seems to be an underlying current that flows toward sexual freedom that can become unreasonable. 

If I tell my potential partner that I tried anal in the past and didn't like it and don't want to try it again, my partner may respect my wishes, and tell me that he's not interested, either.

For now.

But what about in a few years from now? He may decide that he really WANTS to do anal. Meanwhile, If I don't do it, he'll hate me. If I do it, I'll hate _him_ (and myself). To me, he changed the rules in mid-game, which is kind of how I see the OP. 

When we get into a serious LTR and/or marriage, are we giving up our right to say 'no' to ANY kind of sex act that our partner wants from us under the threat of him or her ending the relationship? Is this another 'covert contract'? 

How much of a sacrifice do we have to make before we end up sacrificing our own souls?


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> Certainly wouldn't work for me, I couldn't be with a woman who couldn't have an adult conversation about her past. However everyone is different and if that's too difficult a topic we just wouldn't be compatable for one another.


I think the challenge, everyone has a different definition of what constitutes sexual history/past. Is it just talking about your number, is it talking about certain acts, what information is too much information, etc... I wouldn't say that someone is not adult enough solely b/c they may only be willing to talk about certain things. If a female gives me a phenomenal BJ, we wouldn't need to discuss her past to know that she didn't just learn it from practicing on bananas lol. All depends what each person wants.

For me, the main items I would want to know would be the person's number, have they ever cheated on their SO, and if there were any traumatic sexual encounters in their past that may in any way impact us. I guess throw in there if there was any sex that included more than 2 people at once lol. Outside of that I don't really need to know more details about what they did in the past, would rather focus on our sexual compatibility together.


----------



## wild jade

Catherine602 said:


> I didn't consider the details.  It's the similarity of human emotions evoked by insensitivity towards the needs of a loved one that caught my attention. Changing needs, likes and dislikes are common in LTR. Some have little or no effect on the relationship some have a serious impact.
> 
> Those that do, should not be dismissed cavalierly. Agree to disagree if it comes to that but refusal to even communicate and resolve a situation that causes pain is not loving. That's how I feel.


What stood out for me in your analogy was that even though I could see what you were getting at in terms of similarity of emotions, I still don't think either example is necessarily about how much one partner loves another.

Having kids is a very very big deal, and someone who has already done that, and been through it is in a different place in their lives than someone who hasn't. And not wanting to bring a child into this world just to make someone else happy seems to me pretty sane and reasonable. Of course, for the person who hasn't had kids it would be a huge disappointment, completely devastating, even a deal-breaker. But the "you had kids with another woman, but you won't do it for me" sounds just as entitled and selfish as the guy lamenting the lost party girl.

Sometimes people are just at very different phases of their live, and can't really turn back the clock to be somewhere else. Doesn't mean you don't love someone.


----------



## Married but Happy

wild jade said:


> Sometimes people are just at very different phases of their live, and can't really turn back the clock to be somewhere else. Doesn't mean you don't love someone.


This is very true. But even if you truly do love someone, they may not _feel_ loved if it's not expressed in ways that are meaningful to them. Neither is wrong - but there is a disconnect.


----------



## I Don't Know

WorkingWife said:


> Yep. I agree.
> 
> I also think WHY they won't do it for the new partner matters.
> 
> From the "but I don't want to" person's point of view, I think it may also matter if XYZ was emotionally or physically destructive to them. Let's say someone did drugs, had group sex, went skinny dipping with groups of friends, spent more than they could afford, had a more lucrative job but one they hated and that caused tons of stress, etc. in the past -- for whatever reason, that behavior brought pain into their life, but now there new partner is resentful they won't do that again "for them." I think that's not just unfair, but actually evidence of non-caring to push your spouse to do those things.
> 
> But what if they used to pick up after themselves, cook, clean, bring home flowers, buy expensive gifts they could afford, give lots of oral sex, wear sexy things around the house, do strip teases, etc. Now they don't want to not because those things distressed them in anyway but simply because, meh, they don't feel like it. Giving oral sex isn't somthing they always hated but did anyhow, and they don't now have TMJ that they didn't have before -- it just bores them. Frankly, they don't feel like putting in the effort so they're not going to.
> 
> That would be very revealing to the new "non" recipient about where they stood.
> 
> Or like Catherine's example of children with first spouse but not the second. True, they may not have realized how much work kids were with first spouse and now they do, but that they would deny the second spouse that experience if they really want it, does show their true priorities.
> 
> I think many people do get more honest with themselves about not really wanting to do certain things as they age. But I also think many of us can get more selfish and lazy in our relationships. When your spouse won't do something you really want for you that they did for others with no negative consequences, it is telling.


Absolutely the why matters. That's been another area of contention on this very thread (I believe). Some of us argue that if there's a "good" reason a person doesn't want to do something, we'd be fine with that. For example... someone used to do anal, loved it, but had a tear so now never doing it again. I get that. Even, used to do anal, loved it, but read more about it and found out all the risks, so don't want to do it now, I would understand. To me those are much different than giving no reason. Or "I used to like it but just don't want to do it anymore." Or the worst (IMO) "I just don't want to do that with you."

But, others argued that no one has to give a reason for what they don't want to do or the reasons don't matter. I see their point to an extent. If Jack doesn't want to do oral with Mary, in the big picture the reasons don't matter. The end result is the same. Mary doesn't get oral from Jack. But to Mary the reason may make a big difference in whether she wants to continue a relationship with Jack.


----------



## WorkingWife

I Don't Know said:


> Absolutely the why matters. That's been another area of contention on this very thread (I believe). Some of us argue that if there's a "good" reason a person doesn't want to do something, we'd be fine with that. For example... someone used to do anal, loved it, but had a tear so now never doing it again. I get that. Even, used to do anal, loved it, but read more about it and found out all the risks, so don't want to do it now, I would understand. To me those are much different than giving no reason. Or "I used to like it but just don't want to do it anymore." Or the worst (IMO) "I just don't want to do that with you."
> 
> But, others argued that no one has to give a reason for what they don't want to do or the reasons don't matter. I see their point to an extent. If Jack doesn't want to do oral with Mary, in the big picture the reasons don't matter. The end result is the same. Mary doesn't get oral from Jack. But to Mary the reason may make a big difference in whether she wants to continue a relationship with Jack.


Well, I'm with you. To me the reason makes all the difference in the world. Of course Jack doesn't _*have *_to do *anything*, but Mary is not an idiot. If she knows Jack gave lots of oral to all his former lovers but won't for her, she understands he was more into them than he is her and that's a lot more painful to live with than being with a person who doesn't like to give oral period.

When I married my first husband, he showed no interest in our wedding invitations, ceremony (done in a friend's back yard in nice but not "special" clothes, no photographer) etc. When it was time to "kiss the bride" he gave me a tiny peck. When we cut the cake he smeared my piece in my face. (He then proceeded to get drunk, ignore me, act like a ****, and alienate all our long time friends that night. But I digress...)

Anyhow, my step kids who we had custody of had photo albums of their parents marriage. Pictures of his lingering kiss of the bride. Pictures of them smiling, gently feeding each other cake. His tux, her wedding gown, etc. 

I could never get that kiss out of my mind. It's not like he's shy of PDAs like my current husband is. I could contrast it to the pictures in that photo album that I knew something was wrong. When we divorced he explained what had probably been obvious to everyone else all along - he had not wanted to marry me but he was in the military and traveled a lot and needed someone to raise his kids. He resented me because he felt trapped into marrying me by his circumstances.

Of course the contrast between all he did for his first wife compared to me went well beyond a "you may now kiss the bride" moment. But all the things that hurt me so deeply, including that reluctant kiss, probably would not have fazed me if he was "just that way." But I knew on a gut level - he just wasn't that into me.


----------



## I Don't Know

WorkingWife said:


> Well, I'm with you. To me the reason makes all the difference in the world. Of course Jack doesn't _*have *_to do *anything*, but Mary is not an idiot. If she knows Jack gave lots of oral to all his former lovers but won't for her, she understands he was more into them than he is her and that's a lot more painful to live with than being with a person who doesn't like to give oral period.
> 
> When I married my first husband, he showed no interest in our wedding invitations, ceremony (done in a friend's back yard in nice but not "special" clothes, no photographer) etc. When it was time to "kiss the bride" he gave me a tiny peck. When we cut the cake he smeared my piece in my face. (He then proceeded to get drunk, ignore me, act like a ****, and alienate all our long time friends that night. But I digress...)
> 
> Anyhow, my step kids who we had custody of had photo albums of their parents marriage. Pictures of his lingering kiss of the bride. Pictures of them smiling, gently feeding each other cake. His tux, her wedding gown, etc.
> 
> I could never get that kiss out of my mind. It's not like he's shy of PDAs like my current husband is. I could contrast it to the pictures in that photo album that I knew something was wrong. When we divorced he explained what had probably been obvious to everyone else all along - he had not wanted to marry me but he was in the military and traveled a lot and needed someone to raise his kids. He resented me because he felt trapped into marrying me by his circumstances.
> 
> Of course the contrast between all he did for his first wife compared to me went well beyond a "you may now kiss the bride" moment. But all the things that hurt me so deeply, including that reluctant kiss, probably would not have fazed me if he was "just that way." But I knew on a gut level - he just wasn't that into me.


Jeez that's some absolute BS. I'm sorry.


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> I think the challenge, everyone has a different definition of what constitutes sexual history/past. Is it just talking about your number, is it talking about certain acts, what information is too much information, etc... I wouldn't say that someone is not adult enough solely b/c they may only be willing to talk about certain things. If a female gives me a phenomenal BJ, we wouldn't need to discuss her past to know that she didn't just learn it from practicing on bananas lol. All depends what each person wants.
> 
> For me, the main items I would want to know would be the person's number, have they ever cheated on their SO, and if there were any traumatic sexual encounters in their past that may in any way impact us. I guess throw in there if there was any sex that included more than 2 people at once lol. Outside of that I don't really need to know more details about what they did in the past, would rather focus on our sexual compatibility together.


Yes I would say we all have our own need and wants when it comes to knowledge of our partners past. What you want to know is in line what I want to know as well. Maybe clarify they have never been a porn star or prostitute as well :wink2:


----------



## wild jade

Married but Happy said:


> This is very true. But even if you truly do love someone, they may not _feel_ loved if it's not expressed in ways that are meaningful to them. Neither is wrong - but there is a disconnect.


True. And just because you love someone doesn't mean you should stay together either. Sometimes, it really just doesn't work out.


----------



## Wolf1974

Vega said:


> I agree. To a point.
> 
> There seems to be an underlying current that flows toward sexual freedom that can become unreasonable.
> 
> If I tell my potential partner that I tried anal in the past and didn't like it and don't want to try it again, my partner may respect my wishes, and tell me that he's not interested, either.
> 
> For now.
> 
> But what about in a few years from now? He may decide that he really WANTS to do anal. Meanwhile, If I don't do it, he'll hate me. If I do it, I'll hate _him_ (and myself). To me, he changed the rules in mid-game, which is kind of how I see the OP.
> 
> When we get into a serious LTR and/or marriage, are we giving up our right to say 'no' to ANY kind of sex act that our partner wants from us under the threat of him or her ending the relationship? Is this another 'covert contract'?
> 
> How much of a sacrifice do we have to make before we end up sacrificing our own souls?


Why would you ever do something you hate? Or why would you even be with someone who expected you to do some you know you tried and hated? Makes no sense. That's not what this thread is about. It's about you tried something in the past and liked it but just won't do it with you current partner because don't love them as much


----------



## Catherine602

wild jade said:


> What stood out for me in your analogy was that even though I could see what you were getting at in terms of similarity of emotions, I still don't think either example is necessarily about how much one partner loves another.
> 
> Having kids is a very very big deal, and someone who has already done that, and been through it is in a different place in their lives than someone who hasn't. And not wanting to bring a child into this world just to make someone else happy seems to me pretty sane and reasonable. Of course, for the person who hasn't had kids it would be a huge disappointment, completely devastating, even a deal-breaker. But the "you had kids with another woman, but you won't do it for me" sounds just as entitled and selfish as the guy lamenting the lost party girl.
> 
> Sometimes people are just at very different phases of their live, and can't really turn back the clock to be somewhere else. Doesn't mean you don't love someone.


I'm only talking about the emotions. I acknowledge the challenges of having children is completely different than having sex. Maybe it was a bad analogy because it seems to send people sideways.

I'll give you another maybe better example. I feel uncomfortable if my husband stares at women when I am with him. I feel it is disrespectful to me and it makes me compare myself to the woman he is staring at. Plus it's unnecessary, he can stare when I'm not with him. 

I told him how I felt and he stopped. But he commented that his stares have nothing to do with how he feels about me and he was surprised that it made me feel bad. 

On the face of it, looking is a benign and normal pastime but that has nothing to do with how it made me feel. He could have reassured me that it was nothing and continued to look. 

He was sensitive to how it made me feel although, his stares did not have the same meaning for him as it did for me. He didn't argue the point, he just stopped.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> [MENTION=51435]
> I don't know how it can be resolved though. For me, the analogy to the current topic is that* I found a way to step into the shoes of men who genuinely feel hurt*. I couldn't feel any sympathy for them before because I felt they wanted pleasure at the expense of the woman.
> 
> Maybe that is true for some men but *the repeated expression of genuine emotion was hard to ignore*. There had to be more to the story. So I changed my view when I found a situation with some similarities.
> 
> I still believe that changing preferences is not a reflection on the strength of love but I understand why a person might feel that way. Sometimes a frameshift in the way a situation is viewed carries the possibility of open minded discussion and even change.


This post restores my faith in humanity back to the level it was before I started participating in this thread, maybe puts it a notch or two above that. 

The bolded parts are the most important. 

Feeling that there might be something genuine being said even if it didn't conform to your initial biases and searching for a way to have empathy. Not a lot of people are capable of that.


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> This post restores my faith in humanity back to the level it was before I started participating in this thread, maybe puts it a notch or two above that.
> 
> The bolded parts are the most important.
> 
> Feeling that there might be something genuine being said even if it didn't conform to your initial biases and searching for a way to have empathy. Not a lot of people are capable of that.


 @Buddy400 Please don't lose your faith in humanity. 

This is a difficult problem to solve because sex is rarely associated with emotions and empathy in our culture. In fact, we seem to take pains to separate emotions and sex. 

When I feel empathy it is always associated with experiences I have had. We have the potential to feel empathy that is not applied to all situations. We need to see that there something to be empathetic about. 

It is not enough for a husband to say he is hurt that his wife was more adventurous with previous lovers. She may think he is trying to manipulate her into doing something that she does not want to do. 

She knows what that is like, but she may not know what it is like to be with a man who expresses genuine emotions associated with sex. 

It is very common for women to experience sexual manipulation from an early age. As a result, it takes a great deal of information to be convinced that there is any emotions involved.

There are many lurkers reading these threads. We don't get to hear about how many changed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes I would say we all have our own need and wants when it comes to knowledge of our partners past. What you want to know is in line what I want to know as well. Maybe clarify they have never been a porn star or prostitute as well :wink2:


I guess caring about a partner's past as a means of judging compatibility when otherwise the present is great would be a HUGE red flag for me in the area of forgiveness and grudge holding.


----------



## Buddy400

Catherine602 said:


> [MENTION=154305]Please don't lose your faith in humanity.


My "loss of faith in humanity" (hyperbole) was not based on this particular situation. 

Rather, it was based on what seemed to be a complete inability to communicate.

Personally, I've never been in this situation. Never wanted any sex act I knew my wife had done previously or wanted to know much about her specific sexual history.

But, if I were in this situation, I'd understand where OP and others were coming from.

I was dismayed by the inability or unwillingness of women (mostly) to consider that the feelings were genuine and understandable (even if they didn't see it the same way).


----------



## Vega

Buddy400 said:


> * Never wanted any sex act I knew my wife had done previously *or wanted to know much about her specific sexual history.


I know a lot of women who are like this. They don't want to do anything or go anywhere that their current love interest had been with another woman. If it was a restaurant that was his ex's "favorite", she wouldn't want go there, period. If his ex loved a certain amusement park, his new love interest wouldn't want to go. She didn't want to do stuff that might remind him of 'her'. She wanted to create NEW memories, separate from the ex. 

Also, if my current love interest told me, "Let's try (...)! My ex (or, insert ex's name) used to LOVE this!", I probably wouldn't want to do it. 

So, from that vantage point, I still don't get the whole I-want-to-do-with-you-what-you-did-with-HIM type of thinking. 

It's almost like being in competition with a _ghost_. I mean, why would you want to _purposely_ remind her of her ex?

To do that seems almost...cruel...


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess caring about a partner's past as a means of judging compatibility when otherwise the present is great would be a HUGE red flag for me in the area of forgiveness and grudge holding.


A lot of this though would hopefully be discussed as part of the beginning of a relationship and you are getting to know each other and determine if you are in fact compatible. A partner's past can very much come into play when considering compatibility (and not just talking sexual past solely).


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> A lot of this though would hopefully be discussed as part of the beginning of a relationship and you are getting to know each other and determine if you are in fact compatible. A partner's past can very much come into play when considering compatibility (and not just talking sexual past solely).


I actually don't think that the FACTS of someone's past tells you much. I think it might tell you how they learned and grew (or didn't).


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think that the FACTS of someone's past tells you much. I think it might tell you how they learned and grew (or didn't).


I don't necessarily agree, but to each their own.


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess caring about a partner's past as a means of judging compatibility when otherwise the present is great would be a HUGE red flag for me in the area of forgiveness and grudge holding.


I would submit that if you aren't ok with a persons past then you really aren't ok with their present either. We all have different things we hold import in relationships. And all have a right to have those

this seems a gross oversimplification. So you are telling me that if your husband murdred his first wife but is nice to you no worries then? After all past is just the past right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> I would submit that if you aren't ok with a persons past then you really aren't ok with their present either. We all have different things we hold import in relationships. And all have a right to have those
> 
> this seems a gross oversimplification. So you are telling me that if your husband murdred his first wife but is nice to you no worries then? After all past is just the past right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



He does not have a first wife!  I don't know what one could do to impress upon me that they have recovered from the sickness that murder demonstrates. But THAT is the only thing I care about about the past. What did you do/learn/grow from it.


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> this seems a gross oversimplification. So you are telling me that if your husband murdred his first wife but is nice to you no worries then? After all past is just the past right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If they learned from it and promise not to do it again, what's the problem


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> He does not have a first wife!  I don't know what one could do to impress upon me that they have recovered from the sickness that murder demonstrates. But THAT is the only thing I care about about the past. What did you do/learn/grow from it.


we'll if you could stomach being married to someone who did that to someone or touched a kid or raped someone so long as they learned and few from it more power to you. Not the way I believe. I reserve the right to be judgemental on anyone who I let in my life or around my kids. Had I been more judgemental about the past younger in life I might not be divorced now :wink2:


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> we'll if you could stomach being married to someone who did that to someone or touched a kid or raped someone so long as they learned and few from it more power to you. Not the way I believe. I reserve the right to be judgemental on anyone who I let in my life or around my kids. Had I been more judgemental about the past younger in life I might not be divorced now :wink2:


Are you being intentionally obtuse?

"I don't know what one could do to impress upon me that they have recovered from the sickness"... Feel free to be judgemental if you like! I actually don't think being judgemental is a bad thing at all. I just don't think judging FACTS is as important as judging OUTCOME. 

YMMV


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> Are you being intentionally obtuse?
> 
> "I don't know what one could do to impress upon me that they have recovered from the sickness"... Feel free to be judgemental if you like! I actually don't think being judgemental is a bad thing at all. I just don't think judging FACTS is as important as judging OUTCOME.
> 
> YMMV


No more than you. 

Facts are what I am judging. Fact is cheating is a repeat behavior so knowing someone cheated in the past is very important to the future of OUR relationship.


----------



## Married but Happy

Wolf1974 said:


> No more than you.
> 
> Facts are what I am judging. Fact is cheating is a repeat behavior so knowing someone cheated in the past is very important to the future of OUR relationship.


Then your facts are suspect. Most cheating is a one-time transgression. Only a small percentage of cheaters are serial cheaters.

Anthony Weiner: Do Cheaters Always Do It Again?


----------



## I Don't Know

Vega said:


> I know a lot of women who are like this. They don't want to do anything or go anywhere that their current love interest had been with another woman. If it was a restaurant that was his ex's "favorite", she wouldn't want go there, period. If his ex loved a certain amusement park, his new love interest wouldn't want to go. She didn't want to do stuff that might remind him of 'her'. She wanted to create NEW memories, separate from the ex.
> 
> Also, if my current love interest told me, "Let's try (...)! My ex (or, insert ex's name) used to LOVE this!", I probably wouldn't want to do it.
> 
> So, from that vantage point, I still don't get the whole I-want-to-do-with-you-what-you-did-with-HIM type of thinking.
> 
> It's almost like being in competition with a _ghost_. I mean, why would you want to _purposely_ remind her of her ex?
> 
> To do that seems almost...cruel...


There's only so many ways to stick tab A into slot B. I'm guessing I already do plenty of things that could remind her of her exes.


----------



## Buddy400

Vega said:


> I know a lot of women who are like this. They don't want to do anything or go anywhere that their current love interest had been with another woman. If it was a restaurant that was his ex's "favorite", she wouldn't want go there, period. If his ex loved a certain amusement park, his new love interest wouldn't want to go. She didn't want to do stuff that might remind him of 'her'. She wanted to create NEW memories, separate from the ex.
> 
> Also, if my current love interest told me, "Let's try (...)! My ex (or, insert ex's name) used to LOVE this!", I probably wouldn't want to do it.
> 
> So, from that vantage point, I still don't get the whole I-want-to-do-with-you-what-you-did-with-HIM type of thinking.
> 
> It's almost like being in competition with a _ghost_. I mean, why would you want to _purposely_ remind her of her ex?
> 
> To do that seems almost...cruel...


You misunderstood.

It's not that her having done it before made me not want it.

I just didn't want it, regardless of whether or not she had done it before.


----------



## Wolf1974

Married but Happy said:


> Then your facts are suspect. Most cheating is a one-time transgression. Only a small percentage of cheaters are serial cheaters.
> 
> Anthony Weiner: Do Cheaters Always Do It Again?


Actually my facts are very much on point. Just cause you find one study on the internet to support your opinion doesn't make it right.

This took me 10 seconds to find and says cheaters are 3.5 times more likely to do it again.

Study Suggests People Who Cheat Are 3.5 Times More Likely To Do It Again | Huffington Post


So guess you can call them suspect if you like as I will do the same with yours


----------



## Married but Happy

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually my facts are very much on point. Just cause you find one study on the internet to support your opinion doesn't make it right.
> 
> This took me 10 seconds to find and says cheaters are 3.5 times more likely to do it again.
> 
> Study Suggests People Who Cheat Are 3.5 Times More Likely To Do It Again | Huffington Post
> 
> 
> So guess you can call them suspect if you like as I will do the same with yours


Ooh! I like it! Dueling studies!


----------



## Catherine602

Wolf1974 said:


> we'll if you could stomach being married to someone who did that to someone or touched a kid or raped someone so long as they learned and few from it more power to you. Not the way I believe. I reserve the right to be judgemental on anyone who I let in my life or around my kids. Had I been more judgmental about the past younger in life I might not be divorced now :wink2:


:agree: no one can honestly believes that a persons past does not inform their future. Moreover, there is no question that we all have a right to know and evaluate the past of someone who has the potential to share our lives. In fact, I'll bet there is not one person posting on this thread who has not vetted every potential partner no matter how transient. 

These discussions may be proxies for deeper issues? Men and women simply cannot seem to come to one mind on one issue, the locus of control of female sexuality. 

Men (archetypal) seem to be uncomfortable with the locus of control of female sexuality resting with women themselves. Most women believe that they have a right to decide what happens to their body, AKA, locus of control. 

I think men express their discomfort by labeling a basic right as feminism or lack of love or unfair to a loving husband. We seem to have a hard time negotiating fairly. Couples who love and care about each other aught to be able to establish trust so they can safely exchange power and control. 

The operative word is exchange. Many people demand more than they are willing to give. They mistakenly believe that the person with the larger need has the right take control to satisfy that need.


----------



## tech-novelist

Catherine602 said:


> I think I get it now.
> 
> There was a thread started by a man who had children from a previous marriage and did not want more. He married a woman of child bearing age who had no children of her own.
> 
> The man refused to give his wife children because he had some already. His wife had every reason to feel that he loves her less because he will not give her what he gave his first wife. IMO.
> 
> It's understandable to me now that a man would feel that his wife thinks less of him if she was more sexual with a former lover. I felt the man was being unreasonable but I don't think so anymore.
> 
> And the Light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it.


I took you off ignore because this was quoted by someone else.

Thank you.


----------



## tech-novelist

wild jade said:


> This would certainly seem to be a takeaway from this thread. *Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.*
> 
> But I think in general we want to be true to ourselves, and to not have to live with a mask on all the time. But of course there's fallout from that. A guy may no longer love us when he knows the truth. He might not even like us.
> 
> Personally, I'm in favour of dropping the mask early on, and those who're going to have a problem with me can just go along their merry way.


I don't agree.

I've known about the sexual past of all the women I've been in an LTR with.

It has never been a problem for me... but if they had lied to me and I found out that they had done so, it would have been a *big *problem.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually my facts are very much on point. Just cause you find one study on the internet to support your opinion doesn't make it right.
> 
> This took me 10 seconds to find and says cheaters are 3.5 times more likely to do it again.
> 
> Study Suggests People Who Cheat Are 3.5 Times More Likely To Do It Again | Huffington Post
> 
> 
> So guess you can call them suspect if you like as I will do the same with yours


3.5x does not 100%, not even 80%...

In fact "3.5x" is almost a useless statistic - since all (100% of) cheaters have done it at least once, which is your sample space. What does that make 3.5x? a quota??
The only real relevance is to have a statistic which compares double+ cheaters, since they need a single cheater to even qualify for the sample space. Thus you're comparing the double+ cheaters vs everyone else. so is that 72% vs 28% have a second [physical] affair - in which case the headline is 72% of cheaters repeat - and is that just for the second offence, or is it a total number of offences vs the group. Do those who have second affair, more or less likely to have a third?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

tech-novelist said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> I've known about the sexual past of all the women I've been in an LTR with.
> 
> It has never been a problem for me... but if they had lied to me and I found out that they had done so, it would have been a *big *problem.



re: "* Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.*"

I think the more generally applicable statement is that "it is unwise for any woman to communicate anything truthfully" as facts and truthful statements will stop them manipulating and gas lighting things to their advantage later on, as anyone who has truthful knowledge will use that against them getting what they want.


----------



## tech-novelist

spotthedeaddog said:


> re: "* Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.*"
> 
> I think the more generally applicable statement is that "it is unwise for any woman to communicate anything truthfully" as facts and truthful statements will stop them manipulating and gas lighting things to their advantage later on, as anyone who has truthful knowledge will use that against them getting what they want.


I don't think so. In no case have I used any of that information against the women who disclosed it to me.

But that may be because they didn't try to gaslight me later. So maybe it is only a bad idea for a woman to tell the truth if she is going to want to have that option?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Catherine602 said:


> I told him how I felt and he stopped. But he commented that his stares have nothing to do with how he feels about me and he was surprised that it made me feel bad.


Myself and others have found it easier to stop noticing people who attract stares when we realised what they were doing and how effectively we were being farmed for one-sided sexual and emotional gratification. When one realises it's the sexual equivalent of a toddler throwing a noisy tantrum in public to get sweets/toys (and how the person doing so is pretty much at the toddler level of emotion demanding) much of the attraction vanishes - the appreciation of the tailor, or the preparation of the package gets a brief notice but the goods hold as much attraction as one of those kiddy glamour pagents. yuck.


----------



## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> 3.5x does not 100%, not even 80%...
> 
> In fact "3.5x" is almost a useless statistic - since all (100% of) cheaters have done it at least once, which is your sample space. What does that make 3.5x? a quota??
> The only real relevance is to have a statistic which compares double+ cheaters, since they need a single cheater to even qualify for the sample space. Thus you're comparing the double+ cheaters vs everyone else. so is that 72% vs 28% have a second [physical] affair - in which case the headline is 72% of cheaters repeat - and is that just for the second offence, or is it a total number of offences vs the group. Do those who have second affair, more or less likely to have a third?


What they are talking about is how many times they repeat. So 3.5x is compared to those who never have. Personally I think this number is low but as I told married you are welcome to believe what you like. Matter of fact you can overlook this in your dating future as you so dare to do. I learned my lesson on it.


----------



## Wolf1974

Catherine602 said:


> :agree: no one can honestly believes that a persons past does not inform their future. Moreover, there is no question that we all have a right to know and evaluate the past of someone who has the potential to share our lives. In fact, I'll bet there is not one person posting on this thread who has not vetted every potential partner no matter how transient.
> 
> These discussions may be proxies for deeper issues? Men and women simply cannot seem to come to one mind on one issue, the locus of control of female sexuality.
> 
> *Men (archetypal) seem to be uncomfortable with the locus of control of female sexuality resting with women themselves. Most women believe that they have a right to decide what happens to their body, AKA, locus of control. *
> 
> I think men express their discomfort by labeling a basic right as feminism or lack of love or unfair to a loving husband. We seem to have a hard time negotiating fairly. Couples who love and care about each other aught to be able to establish trust so they can safely exchange power and control.
> 
> The operative word is exchange. Many people demand more than they are willing to give. They mistakenly believe that the person with the larger need has the right take control to satisfy that need.


I agree they do. What seems to be lost on a few here is the other side. That I have a right to decide what is right for me and my life as well. Somehow the one sided approach seems to make sense to them, doesn't to me. That's why I think the best approach is for men and women to look for compatable partners and stop telling those they disagree with that they are wrong for what works for them

For what it's worth I appreciate that you have been wiling to have an honest and open dialog. Many just don't seem to be capable .


----------



## Phil Anders

Catherine602 said:


> Men (archetypal) seem to be uncomfortable with the locus of control of female sexuality resting with women themselves. Most women believe that they have a right to decide what happens to their body, AKA, locus of control.
> 
> I think men express their discomfort by labeling a basic right as feminism or lack of love or unfair to a loving husband. We seem to have a hard time negotiating fairly. Couples who love and care about each other aught to be able to establish trust so they can safely exchange power and control.
> 
> The operative word is exchange. Many people demand more than they are willing to give. They mistakenly believe that the person with the larger need has the right take control to satisfy that need.


Is this what you're taking away from the comparison of past and present sexual behaviors? Because I don't believe men here are advocating control: ie., that women are _obliged_ to do X simply because they did it before (let alone that they should be actively coerced in some way). At least, I know _I'm_ not arguing for anything like that: I like women who embrace their agency, because I'm only interested in voluntary, mindful sex. 

I thought we were talking about the _conclusions_ a man might draw about the state of his relationship from his partner's steadfast unwillingness to engage in X with him, not questioning her right to refuse. I mean, I have a basic right to stomp around and slam every door in my house...but if I do, it may be difficult to prevent my partner from concluding that I'm angry at her!


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> What they are talking about is how many times they repeat. So 3.5x is compared to those who never have. Personally I think this number is low but as I told married you are welcome to believe what you like. Matter of fact you can overlook this in your dating future as you so dare to do. I learned my lesson on it.


that's why I said it is an ineffective number for such a comparison.

One shows that some have a single re-occurence %. ie that most do not.

That other states a somehow averaged amount for those who do repeat (which is very dependent on the sample size for that kind of data), given that they all start with 1 offense. 
VS those who _have_0_ (not on the scale)


----------



## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> that's why I said it is an ineffective number for such a comparison.
> 
> One shows that some have a single re-occurence %. ie that most do not.
> 
> That other states a somehow averaged amount for those who do repeat (which is very dependent on the sample size for that kind of data), given that they all start with 1 offense.
> VS those who _have_0_ (not on the scale)


And that's why I said disregard as you like and feel free to date previous cheaters and think they have the same propensity to cheat as those who never have. 

And good luck with that. As I said. Learned my lesson :grin2:


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree they do. What seems to be lost on a few here is the other side. That I have a right to decide what is right for me and my life as well. Somehow the one sided approach seems to make sense to them, doesn't to me.


Does he get a right to choose about what is good for about him and his life?

I agree, you enter into a contract, even a social contract - it is hardly reasonable to withhold something on someone who you care about now, when you were prepared to go further with someone you cared about less. Especially when in a marriage or marriage like circumstances where there is an agreed contract that in return for monopoly supply, the other party gives up the right to seek outside supply.

I would compare it to say that if he must only do what she wants sexually now (HNHN #1 ranker for men) then she should only be allowed to converse with people when and where he feels like (social communication being big with women's needs) - after all you get to control his sexuality, then only fair that he gets to control something of similar importance for her.


----------



## Catherine602

Buddy400 said:


> My "loss of faith in humanity" (hyperbole) was not based on this particular situation.
> 
> Rather, it was based on what seemed to be a complete inability to communicate.
> 
> Personally, I've never been in this situation. Never wanted any sex act I knew my wife had done previously or wanted to know much about her specific sexual history.
> 
> But, if I were in this situation, I'd understand where OP and others were coming from.
> 
> I was dismayed by the inability or unwillingness of women (mostly) to consider that the feelings were genuine and understandable (even if they didn't see it the same way).


 @Buddy400 I don't think the discussion shows an unwillingness to understand. If you read most of the post, it's more of a power struggle. The distinction is important. 

That's what I have been trying to get across. Knowledge is power. If you believe that your partner is intentionally obtuse, you give up hope. But if you recognize a power struggle when you see one. If you and you know the origins, you have many avenues open to you. 

An example. We recently moved from a suburban area to a crowded urban areas and I went from driving to work to taking public transportation. I had 2 incidents of men touching my butt in a crowded train. 

I told my husband how hopeless and worthless I felt. He helped me with engineering solutions and emotional support. He said something I really need to hear but I didn't know it. He said that now he understands how difficult it is for women to deal with men when so many of them have bad experiences. 

I cannot express how much relief I felt and how grateful I felt to have such a husband. He confirmed that he cared enough to face what for some men may be anxiety provoking because they can't protect us. 

That to me is an example of acknowledging the source of behavior that may provoke a power struggle in relationships. My husbands maleness is not an unpleasant part of a man I otherwise love. It is integrated into a man I love.


----------



## Catherine602

My husband and I don't need to struggle for sexual power because I trust him. He is the better person to take charge sexually. If I did, we would have a boring sex life. 

Makes it easier to accept some things that show his maleness - the glee at the start of football, taking apart cars and motorcycles etc. I like the differences between us, but I tease him because I really don't understand. 

I'll just say that some men think they need to be female-like so woman will accept them as men. I think they should be as manly as they want to be. At the same time, they can accept that there are some things they cannot solve or fix in a woman's life no matter how much they want. They are not expected to do so. She just needs to know that you are on her side.


----------



## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> Does he get a right to choose about what is good for about him and his life?
> 
> I agree, you enter into a contract, even a social contract - it is hardly reasonable to withhold something on someone who you care about now, when you were prepared to go further with someone you cared about less. Especially when in a marriage or marriage like circumstances where there is an agreed contract that in return for monopoly supply, the other party gives up the right to seek outside supply.
> 
> I would compare it to say that if he must only do what she wants sexually now (HNHN #1 ranker for men) then she should only be allowed to converse with people when and where he feels like (social communication being big with women's needs) - after all you get to control his sexuality, then only fair that he gets to control something of similar importance for her.


You certainly have a unique way to see things. Has nothing to do with control Just compatability. I have zero interest in controlling a woman and wouldn't let one control me. But I wouldn't be with one I wasn't compatable with nor would I be forced to be with someone because I have to accept whatever they did in the past I may not agree with. Nice thing about being an adult is having choice. Women have the same choice and every woman I have been with wanted to know about my past as much as I wanted to know about theirs.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Catherine602 said:


> Men (archetypal) seem to be uncomfortable with the locus of control of female sexuality resting with women themselves. Most women believe that they have a right to decide what happens to their body, AKA, locus of control.
> 
> I think men express their discomfort by labeling a basic right as feminism or lack of love or unfair to a loving husband. We seem to have a hard time negotiating fairly. Couples who love and care about each other aught to be able to establish trust so they can safely exchange power and control.
> 
> The operative word is exchange. Many people demand more than they are willing to give. They mistakenly believe that the person with the larger need has the right take control to satisfy that need.


Many people indeed demand more than they are willing to give - This is especially true when one person has plentiful supply / power over supply and the other does not. The freshwater boater is hardly in a position to judge the importance of a glass of water to a desert dweller and is apt to dismiss that latters' needs out of hand in favour of something that is personally relevant to the boater. How dare there be a quibble to gathering rain water or fairness in supply, far more importance is dock access rights (something worthless to the desert dweller, and something which the desert has none to offer)!

Thus the boater feels that they have the control of the water - simply because the other has nothing that they currently desire.
Which is exactly how it goes with men trying to deal with women fairly - when men had income women wanted money and support/shelter - now that need is satisfied by community and government, the men have nothing much to trade. So a woman desiring a child need only seek out a donor and what they can extract for shelter/support while the hormone levels favour it - then they walk away, after all, what is a contract if it doesn't advantage them? It's just a piece of paper, not a commitment. And the rings are gifts, not really a sign of fidelity or co-commitment.

so why do women want power? it's not just "over their own bodies", because they had that when they negotiate the marriage, which was taken in good faith. They want it because in a contract they got what they wanted earlier on and they want to renege on their obligations as soon as they feel like. And that is why any smart man will object and reject such action, as it is akin to getting women pregnant and ignoring the children and mother. He got the sex he wanted, why shouldn't he just walk away if he feels like it - it's his body and his labor.

---
And just before anyone complains about me being some man who wants to control women... not in the slightest.
I totally believe a woman should freely choose her body and actions, just also that she be kept to her contracts and obligations.
You can do (or avoid) whatever sex (etc) act you want : just don't contract out for anything else. Don't expect support, recognition, monopoly or priority. If you have no specifically declared contract then don't expect child support or income or assets or to be recognised as heirs. It's your body, your choice. But if you enter into a contract then do so honestly, and be expected to _maintain_ your ability to provide services you seek exclusive control over, it's _your_ choice...enter into a contract fully, get the benefits of it; or don't enter into the contract and don't expect benefits that comes from having contract. It's your body - you don't want kids, keep your legs closed, and deal with the choice.


----------



## Catherine602

Phil Anders said:


> Is this what you're taking away from the comparison of past and present sexual behaviors? Because I don't believe men here are advocating control: ie., that women are _obliged_ to do X simply because they did it before (let alone that they should be actively coerced in some way). At least, I know _I'm_ not arguing for anything like that: I like women who embrace their agency, because I'm only interested in voluntary, mindful sex.
> 
> I thought we were talking about the _conclusions_ a man might draw about the state of his relationship from his partner's steadfast unwillingness to engage in X with him, not questioning her right to refuse. I mean, I have a basic right to stomp around and slam every door in my house...but if I do, it may be difficult to prevent my partner from concluding that I'm angry at her!


I was responding to some of the post that represent a sharp left turn away from the original topic actually.

What I got out of the discussion is summed up in the posts I have written so far on the thread. The subject is complex and my take home messages are complex enough to do justice to the discussion and concerns expressed on the entire thread. 

I expressed my view as I see it. I welcome discussion from other points of view. I am not absolutely sure and that is why I am participating in the discussion.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> You certainly have a unique way to see things. Has nothing to do with control Just compatability. I have zero interest in controlling a woman and wouldn't let one control me. But I wouldn't be with one I wasn't compatable with nor would I be forced to be with someone because I have to accept whatever they did in the past I may not agree with. Nice thing about being an adult is having choice. Women have the same choice and every woman I have been with wanted to know about my past as much as I wanted to know about theirs.


Not unique but I have made effort to learn about such nuances and influences - and test them, and see them tested. And watched (learned about) the lies used in so called "social contract" to cover up the expectations.

You might have "zero interest" in controlling a woman - which is generally the way things are in a contract! Neither party has interest in controlling anything....until things go wrong. I'm not interested in telling a retailer how to run their store or merchandise, until I part with my cash and it interferes with my personal expectations - the bigger and more continual the violation the more power I'm going to want to see redress. (something small, like socks left on the floor, bra hanging in the shower, I can ignore).

As you can see from the "affair" threads, a great number of people exercise "power" over their partner. It is a burden the other is happy to deal with, that they stay faithful and meet the needs of each other (such books as HNHN outline most of the major areas of control). As long as the contract is met everyones' happy... but it's generally regarded as something which is not discussed, let alone well known which areas or what the correct expectations are - thus we have some who are HD, some LD, some extroverts, some introverts, and as long as everything is within contract there's no problem - just like at the retail store. But if the prices are going up, and the quantity/quality is dropping - are you just prepared to let it slide? You said you aren't - but what are your options? At first you might be quiet and put up with the extra cost, you might look for alternatives or visit less often - but eventually you're going to have the choice break contract and no buy there any more, or demand the shopkeeper come up to scratch. Modern supply-driven economics says that if you've got the goods then you have the power, and the customer just has to put up with what they're given.
This is because there's no other supply or recourse - historically law and religion controlled the social rules, so there was consolidated power on many of the things women wanted, so they had to trade for what they wanted. Now the law grants them those things as a human right as equals to men, but mens' needs for sex, emotion, shared experience are personal in nature and thus not supplied by government or law. Men have lost the power (negotiation value) in the relationship....something which we see in some Wiccan and feminist groups, where men folk are very much second (or third) class citizens; not even having the power to enforce a right to representation or being heard (something which many men take for granted, through privilege). they simply do not have that right, nor do they have power amongst the women to request, let alone demand it. So are you _really_ sure you don't want your power? these examples are real, and experienced by many others not just myself - so my position is hardly unique, but is uncommon as I have walked in uncommon places when many normal taken-for-granted privileges don't exist.


----------



## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> Not unique but I have made effort to learn about such nuances and influences - and test them, and see them tested. And watched (learned about) the lies used in so called "social contract" to cover up the expectations.
> 
> You might have "zero interest" in controlling a woman - which is generally the way things are in a contract! Neither party has interest in controlling anything....until things go wrong. I'm not interested in telling a retailer how to run their store or merchandise, until I part with my cash and it interferes with my personal expectations - the bigger and more continual the violation the more power I'm going to want to see redress. (something small, like socks left on the floor, bra hanging in the shower, I can ignore).
> 
> As you can see from the "affair" threads, a great number of people exercise "power" over their partner. It is a burden the other is happy to deal with, that they stay faithful and meet the needs of each other (such books as HNHN outline most of the major areas of control). As long as the contract is met everyones' happy... but it's generally regarded as something which is not discussed, let alone well known which areas or what the correct expectations are - thus we have some who are HD, some LD, some extroverts, some introverts, and as long as everything is within contract there's no problem - just like at the retail store. But if the prices are going up, and the quantity/quality is dropping - are you just prepared to let it slide? You said you aren't - but what are your options? At first you might be quiet and put up with the extra cost, you might look for alternatives or visit less often - but eventually you're going to have the choice break contract and no buy there any more, or demand the shopkeeper come up to scratch. Modern supply-driven economics says that if you've got the goods then you have the power, and the customer just has to put up with what they're given.
> This is because there's no other supply or recourse - historically law and religion controlled the social rules, so there was consolidated power on many of the things women wanted, so they had to trade for what they wanted. Now the law grants them those things as a human right as equals to men, but mens' needs for sex, emotion, shared experience are personal in nature and thus not supplied by government or law. Men have lost the power (negotiation value) in the relationship....something which we see in some Wiccan and feminist groups, where men folk are very much second (or third) class citizens; not even having the power to enforce a right to representation or being heard (something which many men take for granted, through privilege). they simply do not have that right, nor do they have power amongst the women to request, let alone demand it. *So are you _really_ sure you don't want your power? * these examples are real, and experienced by many others not just myself - so my position is hardly unique, but is uncommon as I have walked in uncommon places when many normal taken-for-granted privileges don't exist.


Yep I am really REALLy sure I don't want power over anything but my own life and my own decisions. What you describe here is nothing I have seen or subscribe to but to each their own I suppose.


----------



## Catherine602

spotthedeaddog said:


> Many people indeed demand more than they are willing to give - This is especially true when one person has plentiful supply / power over supply and the other does not. The freshwater boater is hardly in a position to judge the importance of a glass of water to a desert dweller and is apt to dismiss that latters' needs out of hand in favour of something that is personally relevant to the boater. How dare there be a quibble to gathering rain water or fairness in supply, far more importance is dock access rights (something worthless to the desert dweller, and something which the desert has none to offer)!
> 
> Thus the boater feels that they have the control of the water - simply because the other has nothing that they currently desire.
> Which is exactly how it goes with men trying to deal with women fairly - when men had income women wanted money and support/shelter - now that need is satisfied by community and government, the men have nothing much to trade. So a woman desiring a child need only seek out a donor and what they can extract for shelter/support while the hormone levels favour it - then they walk away, after all, what is a contract if it doesn't advantage them? It's just a piece of paper, not a commitment. And the rings are gifts, not really a sign of fidelity or co-commitment.
> 
> so why do women want power? it's not just "over their own bodies", because they had that when they negotiate the marriage, which was taken in good faith. They want it because in a contract they got what they wanted earlier on and they want to renege on their obligations as soon as they feel like. And that is why any smart man will object and reject such action, as it is akin to getting women pregnant and ignoring the children and mother. He got the sex he wanted, why shouldn't he just walk away if he feels like it - it's his body and his labor.
> 
> ---
> And just before anyone complains about me being some man who wants to control women... not in the slightest.
> I totally believe a woman should freely choose her body and actions, just also that she be kept to her contracts and obligations.
> You can do (or avoid) whatever sex (etc) act you want : just don't contract out for anything else. Don't expect support, recognition, monopoly or priority. If you have no specifically declared contract then don't expect child support or income or assets or to be recognised as heirs. It's your body, your choice. But if you enter into a contract then do so honestly, and be expected to _maintain_ your ability to provide services you seek exclusive control over, it's _your_ choice...enter into a contract fully, get the benefits of it; or don't enter into the contract and don't expect benefits that comes from having contract. It's your body - you don't want kids, keep your legs closed, and deal with the choice.


You live in a terrible zero sum universe.

I thought the power thing would get an angry response. I understand why you are angry. You think that I am taking sides and accusing men. I am stating what I see, I could be wrong. 

Getting angry and fantasying about women suffering is not a convincing counter argument. If you read the whole post with an open mind, you will see that I am exploring ways of avoiding the power struggle you so accurately display in your post. 

Woman feeling they should have control over what happens to their bodies is very healthy. It is not aberrant quite the opposite. 

I teach my children to respect their vessel and remember it is a gift and they alone are responsible for treating it with respect. 

They are too young to hear this -they need to find partners who have as much respect for their vessel as they do and who can be trusted to be granted power and control. 

To be clear my point is that power can be yielded to someone who can be trusted to care for the vessel as much as the owner. That has to be someone very special to them. 

That is what I am trying to convey. If you get angry, you may be seen as untrustworthy.


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## Catherine602

spotthedeaddog said:


> Myself and others have found it easier to stop noticing people who attract stares when we realised what they were doing and how effectively we were being farmed for one-sided sexual and emotional gratification. When one realises it's the sexual equivalent of a toddler throwing a noisy tantrum in public to get sweets/toys (and how the person doing so is pretty much at the toddler level of emotion demanding) much of the attraction vanishes - the appreciation of the tailor, or the preparation of the package gets a brief notice but the goods hold as much attraction as one of those kiddy glamour pagents. yuck.


Wow I never thought of it that way. Do you mean the some of the attention getting behavior is ego gratifying for the one drawing the attention? The equivalent of notches on the bedpost?


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## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's why I said disregard as you like and feel free to date previous cheaters and think they have the same propensity to cheat as those who never have.
> 
> And good luck with that. As I said. Learned my lesson :grin2:


evading the question isn't as useful as resolving it.
Clearly the propensity to cheat is much higher in those who have, by at least the minimum value 1, when compared to those who haven't [yet]*.

the question is how many with value 1, are re-offenders. Clearly, those with a score of 0, have 0% chance of re-occurrence, so the comparison you make is unuseful.

What is need is the probability of re-occurence. so what proportion of score 1 exists vs those who score 2+; now what makes this [3.5] even less useful, is that younger people are not directly comparable to much older people (unless accompanying analysis is provided to test and/or smooth out for the discrepancy). ie someone who is age 20 has different level of cheating opportunity to an age 30, to an age 90. such a result is also unlikely to be displayed in the other survey either, despite it being a significant factor, especially if applied without declaration.

* without knowing the age and the probability. choosing someone with score 0, is likely to be younger, or have some reason why they are a 0 (eg LD). So we need a list not of what is the average score, but of those with 0, how many by termination age of either party, are still 0 (and generally who aren't that way for unacceptable criteria in other ways). Analysing a group with sample qualification of 1, will not yield that information neither will gathering or comparing the average.
In fact, taking the group of 0 (which initially was everyone, including the 1's) is more likely to result in an "at least 1", than taking a "1" in an older group and examining for "2+'s"


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## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> evading the question isn't as useful as resolving it.
> Clearly the propensity to cheat is much higher in those who have, by at least the minimum value 1, when compared to those who haven't [yet]*.
> 
> the question is how many with value 1, are re-offenders. Clearly, those with a score of 0, have 0% chance of re-occurrence, so the comparison you make is unuseful.
> 
> What is need is the probability of re-occurence. so what proportion of score 1 exists vs those who score 2+; now what makes this [3.5] even less useful, is that younger people are not directly comparable to much older people (unless accompanying analysis is provided to test and/or smooth out for the discrepancy). ie someone who is age 20 has different level of cheating opportunity to an age 30, to an age 90. such a result is also unlikely to be displayed in the other survey either, despite it being a significant factor, especially if applied without declaration.
> 
> * without knowing the age and the probability. choosing someone with score 0, is likely to be younger, or have some reason why they are a 0 (eg LD). So we need a list not of what is the average score, but of those with 0, how many by termination age of either party, are still 0 (and generally who aren't that way for unacceptable criteria in other ways). Analysing a group with sample qualification of 1, will not yield that information neither will gathering or comparing the average.
> In fact, taking the group of 0 (which initially was everyone, including the 1's) is more likely to result in an "at least 1", than taking a "1" in an older group and examining for "2+'s"


I did answer it, twice actually. Just cause you don't like the answer doesn't make it so. By all mean contact the published source to try and double talk your way around what the article says

And again good luck with that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400

Phil Anders said:


> Is this what you're taking away from the comparison of past and present sexual behaviors? Because I don't believe men here are advocating control: ie., that women are _obliged_ to do X simply because they did it before (let alone that they should be actively coerced in some way). At least, I know _I'm_ not arguing for anything like that: I like women who embrace their agency, because I'm only interested in voluntary, mindful sex.
> 
> I thought we were talking about the _conclusions_ a man might draw about the state of his relationship from his partner's steadfast unwillingness to engage in X with him, not questioning her right to refuse. I mean, I have a basic right to stomp around and slam every door in my house...but if I do, it may be difficult to prevent my partner from concluding that I'm angry at her!


I think that this is at the center of the disagreement.

If one's wife happily did X with a previous partner yet won't do it with us (and won't provide a compelling reason why), most women in this thread seem to think that our issue is that our wife should be compelled to do it with us because we are entitled to it as well.

That's not the case. We're just saying how her happily doing X with a previous lover and not with us makes us feel and we're trying to explain why we feel that way.


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## Phil Anders

Buddy400 said:


> I think that this is at the center of the disagreement.
> 
> If one's wife happily did X with a previous partner yet won't do it with us (and won't provide a compelling reason why), most women in this thread seem to think that our issue is that our wife should be compelled to do it with us because we are entitled to it as well.
> 
> That's not the case. We're just saying how her happily doing X with a previous lover and not with us makes us feel and we're trying to explain why we feel that way.


Agree in general...although I now appreciate that @Catherine602 was responding to a digression in the post that prompted mine.


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## Catherine602

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree they do. What seems to be lost on a few here is the other side. That I have a right to decide what is right for me and my life as well. Somehow the one sided approach seems to make sense to them, doesn't to me. That's why I think the best approach is for men and women to look for compatable partners and stop telling those they disagree with that they are wrong for what works for them
> 
> For what it's worth I appreciate that you have been wiling to have an honest and open dialog. Many just don't seem to be capable .


Honesty can sometimes stir misunderstanding, unfortunately. I'd rather reveal what's on my mind because I've learned so much from these discussions. 

What do you do with two people who have equal rights, need each other for a satisfactory intimate relationship and have individual likes and dislikes?


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## Spotthedeaddog

Wolf1974 said:


> I did answer it, twice actually. Just cause you don't like the answer doesn't make it so. By all mean contact the published source to try and double talk your way around what the article says
> 
> And again good luck with that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We do have to explain things to students are many facility members at the university about how to use statistics for such purposes. Many publishers don't care because they have the result they wanted, and the page space filled - that's all they care about. Interpreting statistics is about knowledge and truth, not selling page/screen space/headlines.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Catherine602 said:


> Honesty can sometimes stir misunderstanding, unfortunately. I'd rather reveal what's on my mind because I've learned so much from these discussions.
> 
> What do you do with two people who have equal rights, need each other for a satisfactory intimate relationship and have individual likes and dislikes?


It gets to be a step more difficult because while they have "equal rights" they have uneven requirements (needs).
Her needs tend to be more social and many can be satisfied beyond the relationship.
Many of his needs are directed directly at her and can't be satisfied by anyone else without violating the contract.

On the flip-side, generally the demands, therefore are more directly on her to provide on a personal level; and on him to be publicly and socially active (which directly conflicts with many of his interests).

When it's spelt out, it can be seen it is a difficult negotiation to keep ahead of.


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## Wolf1974

spotthedeaddog said:


> We do have to explain things to students are many facility members at the university about how to use statistics for such purposes. Many publishers don't care because they have the result they wanted, and the page space filled - that's all they care about. Interpreting statistics is about knowledge and truth, not selling page/screen space/headlines.


Thanks for proving my point which was originally that when you want to prove or disprove anything running to the Internet to find a poll, study, opinion isn't always the best choice since you can pretty much find anything you like to support your notion. This is done way to often here


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## Wolf1974

Catherine602 said:


> Honesty can sometimes stir misunderstanding, unfortunately. I'd rather reveal what's on my mind because I've learned so much from these discussions.
> 
> What do you do with two people who have equal rights, need each other for a satisfactory intimate relationship and have individual likes and dislikes?


Not complicated just compatability really. So long as they have enough likes and common interest they should have a great relationship. I think the opposite can be true that when we are too similar and always together that makes its own problems


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## samyeagar

I Don't Know said:


> @wild jade, I can only speak for me, but that's not how I see it. I don't think it's about control as in I'm not trying to change the things done prior to us meeting or what she does now. I guess it could be insecurity, but then again if I can only afford a Corvette and you can afford a Ferrari is it insecurity to say "that person has more money than I do"?
> 
> Real world example. My wife doesn't do oral super often. She will do it if I tell her I want it and she does an outstanding job. But she's never just went for it out of the blue. Although I would love it if she did that once in a while, it's not something I just have to have to be satisfied. Now if somehow I found out that she used to do that with someone, how would I not feel like there was something about that guy that made her want to do that? Whether it was that she wanted to make him happy or that she just really felt the need to blow him or whatever. Either way it's something that she doesn't want to do with me. So in a way the reasons matter. If she did it of her own volition then I'd like to know why I don't evoke the same desire. If she was coerced somehow and never wanted to do that, that's fine. I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to.
> 
> Even if all this happened I would never say you either start doing this for me too or it's over. That wouldn't do me any good because spontaneous BJ's aren't what I want. I want her to desire me. At this point I feel like she desires me and shows me that in the best way she can. New information may or may not change my view on that.


Been away for a while, and just started catching back up with things...and saw the thread that never ends 

I do think a very important question to have an answer to is what exactly does "being into someone" actually look like from a comparison point of view, especially when comparing to the past. How does one measure that? For some, it is the previous acts, however, that whole line of things can change for a plethora of reasons including at the very least, not physically being able to do it any more, and other physical, mental, and emotional changes.

For me, and where this has been a point of contention with my wife is not any acts specifically, but how the past is looked upon right here in the present. I know many of the women here can't relate from the female side because they do not act like this, but at the same time, many of the men CAN relate because they have experienced it...but for me, one of the biggest indicators of how important or good something is, is how much time a person spends talking or dwelling on it...

If I hear someone talking a lot, and very fondly about a car they owned when they were in college, and never about the car they own now, I am going to conclude that they still have, at the very least, some sort of attachment to that old car that is strong enough to feel compelled to dwell on it all these years later, and quite likely that they liked that car better than the one now. Likewise, if I have a friend who talks more about, and more fondly about an ex than his current, I am going to feel bad for the current.

In the case of my wife, she is more publicly, outwardly vocal about other men than she is me. It has taken me a while to come to terms with that, but that's just the way she is, and we haven't argued over this in quite a while because I'm honestly not fussed about it any more, I don't care anymore. The downside is that for me, the biggest driver in my desire to have sex is my partners desire for me, and so the natural consequence here is a decrease in my sexual desire, and now, on the very odd occasion where she does verbalize her attraction to me, it has pretty much no affect.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Been away for a while, and just started catching back up with things...and saw the thread that never ends
> 
> I do think a very important question to have an answer to is what exactly does "being into someone" actually look like from a comparison point of view, especially when comparing to the past. How does one measure that? For some, it is the previous acts, however, that whole line of things can change for a plethora of reasons including at the very least, not physically being able to do it any more, and other physical, mental, and emotional changes.
> 
> For me, and where this has been a point of contention with my wife is not any acts specifically, but how the past is looked upon right here in the present. I know many of the women here can't relate from the female side because they do not act like this, but at the same time, many of the men CAN relate because they have experienced it...but for me, one of the biggest indicators of how important or good something is, is how much time a person spends talking or dwelling on it...
> 
> If I hear someone talking a lot, and very fondly about a car they owned when they were in college, and never about the car they own now, I am going to conclude that they still have, at the very least, some sort of attachment to that old car that is strong enough to feel compelled to dwell on it all these years later, and quite likely that they liked that car better than the one now. Likewise, if I have a friend who talks more about, and more fondly about an ex than his current, I am going to feel bad for the current.
> 
> In the case of my wife, she is more publicly, outwardly vocal about other men than she is me. It has taken me a while to come to terms with that, but that's just the way she is, and we haven't argued over this in quite a while because I'm honestly not fussed about it any more, I don't care anymore. *The downside is that for me, the biggest driver in my desire to have sex is my partners desire for me, and so the natural consequence here is a decrease in my sexual desire, and now, on the very odd occasion where she does verbalize her attraction to me, it has pretty much no affect*.


You posted recently that you two had worked on it and it was going better. Have things gone south again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I think that this is at the center of the disagreement.
> 
> If one's wife happily did X with a previous partner yet won't do it with us (and won't provide a compelling reason why), most women in this thread seem to think that our issue is that our wife should be compelled to do it with us because we are entitled to it as well.
> 
> That's not the case. We're just saying how her happily doing X with a previous lover and not with us makes us feel and we're trying to explain why we feel that way.


I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?


I think some of the concern, who is to say one of her driving motives to marry you is in order to "settle down"
, got all the fun/wild stuff out of the way (this could be gender neutral). I think you can take this beyond sexual as well. What if your SO used to travel a lot before he/she met you. This is something you would love to experience, but they no interest is doing with you b/c "been there, done that". It is about shared experiences.

Also, I don't think anyone here has implied they expect their SO to be a super freak, could be as simple as not giving oral when this was something they did for other people in the past.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> I think some of the concern, who is to say one of her driving motives to marry you is in order to "settle down"
> , got all the fun/wild stuff out of the way (this could be gender neutral). I think you can take this beyond sexual as well. What if your SO used to travel a lot before he/she met you. This is something you would love to experience, but they no interest is doing with you b/c "been there, done that". It is about shared experiences.
> 
> Also, I don't think anyone here has implied they expect their SO to be a super freak, could be as simple as not giving oral when this was something they did for other people in the past.


Like someone settled for the calm and easy path? I think what I am hearing is the feeling that the partner who feels bad was a choice based on an employment interview rather than love and passion. Am I getting this right? If that is the case, I can understand why feelings would be hurt. If the provider, solid at home repair check boxes were checked and that was the reason for marriage, then that would be svcky. And that would hurt me too.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> Like someone settled for the calm and easy path? I think what I am hearing is the feeling that the partner who feels bad was a choice based on an employment interview rather than love and passion. Am I getting this right? If that is the case, I can understand why feelings would be hurt. If the provider, solid at home repair check boxes were checked and that was the reason for marriage, then that would be svcky. And that would hurt me too.


I think that is what the concern is, agreed. Not saying that is always the case, but when you are with someone who is unwilling to take part in experiences with you (sexual and/or non sexual) that you know they were willing and happy to do in the past, it does make you wonder if you just happened to be the "safe bet" for that person.


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?


Because for many men this is the way they show love, affection and connection. And it's not that it's a lot less important but it is less. So for my own example I will use two of my GF X boyfriends. One was rich, I am not, and one was crazy in shape and competes at national level cross fit events. 

Now while I wish I made more money for what I do money isn't the driving force of my life and never has been. She knows what I make and what I can provide and even though the former could provide more it holds little *value* to me. the ability to stay at a five star resort over a three star resort who cares . Or to drive a truck vs a bmw.

Other guy is definetly in better shape than I will ever be. While I have to maintain a level of physical fitness for my job I don't dedicate my life to that and won't miss out on beer and pizza. So this again holds little *value* to me. My gf has seen him naked and me naked and knows the difference. She obviously Holds less value to that as well.

Sex I hold a lot of value in. I legitimately have, and will again if necessary, ended a relationship over lack of sex or sex manipulation. In my wants category it is at the very top. It's how I connect and establish intimacy with a partner. Because I hold this *value* in it I need a partner who does the same. To hear that she _enjoyed_ xyz with a previous lover but won't got there with me because I want to try it just won't work for me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> I think that is what the concern is, agreed. Not saying that is always the case, but when you are with someone who is unwilling to take part in experiences with you (sexual and/or non sexual) that you know they were willing and happy to do in the past, it does make you wonder if you just happened to be the "safe bet" for that person.


Ok. I can understand that. This thread has really made me think. Thanks.


----------



## Wolf1974

I am wondering if any woman can give an example of doing sex acts, and loving them, with one partner but finding the love of her life and won't do them with him what they are and why. I am trying to understand the logic behind it from a woman's perspective


----------



## Giro flee

Wolf1974 said:


> I am wondering if any woman can give an example of doing sex acts, and loving them, with one partner but finding the love of her life and won't do them with him what they are and why. I am trying to understand the logic behind it from a woman's perspective


I'm looking forward to the answer to this as well. I've read this whole thread and cannot wrap my head around the idea of enjoying something but not doing it. It doesn't make any sense to me. The whole premise of the thread is so confusing. Wanting to discontinue activities I don't enjoy is understandable, the opposite is beyond my comprehension. How often is this happening? I had no idea this was a huge problem for people?


----------



## I Don't Know

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?


I'm just shooting from the hip here, so maybe this holds some truth and maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's a case of wanting what you never got (or realized you were getting)? I'd say for most guys, we never were the guy to light someones sexual fire. We had women who were willing, sometimes very willing, but not at a level of "I'd do *anything* for this guy."

So, if you've gone your whole life with women dating you for "Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. Your funniness.", although that's great and we want to be wanted for those reasons too, we long to be our wives' sexual focus (<-- can't find the right word here). For sex with us to be on her mind often. For her to lose control with us and do every crazy, dirty, depraved thing she ever wanted. For her to not just be or have been a freak, but to be *our* freak.

Most women and a few men, who have been valued (or used) for sex, look at us and say I'd rather be valued for X,Y,Z than for sex. Which is sorta the same thing. They are putting priority on what is harder for them to come by more than that which comes easy.


----------



## Vega

Giro flee said:


> Wanting to discontinue activities I don't enjoy is understandable, the opposite is beyond my comprehension. How often is this happening? I had no idea this was a huge problem for people?


Because there are other things in life to enjoy BESIDES sex. For many, it's not the ONLY thing in life that matters. 

I love bowling, but I don't want to bowl every day, several times a day.
I love reading a good mystery, but again, I don't want to do it every day, because...
I also love reading about ancient Egyptian history. And again, I don't want to do it EVERY day, because I also love
taking long walks...petting the dog...reading a bedtime story to a child...watching a sunset...watching glorious sunset...planning a week of healthy eating for my family...watching a rerun of a certain late night t.v. show...

I love eating sushi, but again, with so many other foods to enjoy, I wouldn't want to eat it every day! 

Doing the same thing over and over and OVER again, no matter how much you enjoy it FIRST, tends to get 'old' (and boring) after a while. It's like listening to only ONE song every day, when there's so many other great songs around (I wouldn't be able to tell you what my all-time FAVORITE song is!)

If you set aside time for ONE activity, you won't have time to do the others. 

I wouldn't want to choose what ONE favorite activity is, because I enjoy them ALL.


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## norajane

Wolf1974 said:


> I am wondering if any woman can give an example of doing sex acts, and loving them, with one partner but finding the love of her life and won't do them with him what they are and why. I am trying to understand the logic behind it from a woman's perspective


I can give you an example of something I enjoyed doing with my fiance in the past, but not anymore. It's the same guy in this case, but it could have just as easily been different guys. My fiance has a photography hobby, so at one point, we brought cameras and video to our bedroom and played around with those. At first it was erotic and fun, then it became "too much" for me in that I started to feel the camera was in charge, so I decided that was enough of that. So we don't do it anymore except for a random picture now and then, very random and few and far between. 

If I were to break up with my fiance, I would not do the photos/videos thing with a new guy despite having enjoyed it in the past. And it has nothing to do with my level of passion for the guy, but the way I felt it changed our sexual dynamic. BUT we do OTHER things now, new things we try, plus the tried and true, and that would be the case if I had a new partner now. 

People go through phases where some things are erotic, but once they do them, they become less erotic and interesting, or even more trouble than they're worth. Lots of young people also go through experimental phases when they first start to have sex. By the time they have been having sex for years, the same acts that were exciting when they first did them might not ping the erotic circuitry anymore.


----------



## norajane

Giro flee said:


> I'm looking forward to the answer to this as well. I've read this whole thread and cannot wrap my head around the idea of enjoying something but not doing it. It doesn't make any sense to me. The whole premise of the thread is so confusing. Wanting to discontinue activities I don't enjoy is understandable, the opposite is beyond my comprehension. How often is this happening? I had no idea this was a huge problem for people?


Have you never enjoyed something, but later stopped enjoying it? Ice cream flavor, favorite type of alcohol, dying your hair purple, high heels, anything?

For example, just because teen girls in my day LOVED wine coolers more than life itself, doesn't mean they can even stomach them at 35.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?


The other stuff is important as well, as long as it's something important to me. If I knew that my wife thought previous boyfriends were funnier than me, I wouldn't be happy about that either. If my wife thought previous boyfriends were better handymen, that wouldn't bother me at all since I don't value that myself. My wife will say that I'm not a handyman and that guys who are handymen are cool and that doesn't phase me in the least. Now, if she went on and on about what a great handyman her ex-husband was, I'd probably get a little annoyed just because it would be rude.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Like someone settled for the calm and easy path? I think what I am hearing is the feeling that the partner who feels bad was a choice based on an employment interview rather than love and passion. Am I getting this right? If that is the case, I can understand why feelings would be hurt. If the provider, solid at home repair check boxes were checked and that was the reason for marriage, then that would be svcky. And that would hurt me too.


I read all the time about women who decide to "settle" for the provider guy. I never really knew if this actually happened often or it was just paranoia on the guy's part.

But a marriage counselor says that this describes 60% of her practice.

Couples You Meet in Counseling #4: The Wife Who Wants More and Her Annoyingly Satisfied Husband - Dr. Psych Mom

Then again, I can't feel too much sympathy for husbands who blow off their wife's attempts to tell them she's unhappy either.

This happens the other way as well. Guys "settle" for "wife material" instead of high maintenance drama queens. And it's not a secret that they do this (or claim to want to do this).

But, for some reason, women don't seem unduly bothered by this. I'm guessing it's because women are less sex-centric?


----------



## Buddy400

I Don't Know said:


> Most women and a few men, who have been valued (or used) for sex, look at us and say I'd rather be valued for X,Y,Z than for sex. Which is sorta the same thing. They are putting priority on what is harder for them to come by more than that which comes easy.


That is *IT*!


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> I can give you an example of something I enjoyed doing with my fiance in the past, but not anymore. It's the same guy in this case, but it could have just as easily been different guys. My fiance has a photography hobby, so at one point, we brought cameras and video to our bedroom and played around with those. At first it was erotic and fun, then it became "too much" for me in that I started to feel the camera was in charge, so I decided that was enough of that. So we don't do it anymore except for a random picture now and then, very random and few and far between.
> 
> If I were to break up with my fiance, I would not do the photos/videos thing with a new guy despite having enjoyed it in the past. And it has nothing to do with my level of passion for the guy, but the way I felt it changed our sexual dynamic.


That's a great example.

And, if I was the new guy and it was explained to me like this, I'd understand. Although, since it seems to be more of a preference than painful, humiliating, etc. I might ask you to try it once (although, I probably shouldn't).


----------



## samyeagar

wild jade said:


> This would certainly seem to be a takeaway from this thread. Under no circumstances whatsoever is it wise for a woman to discuss her sexual past, and anyone who wants to know is probably going to use it against them.
> 
> But I think in general we want to be true to ourselves, and to not have to live with a mask on all the time. But of course there's fallout from that. A guy may no longer love us when he knows the truth. He might not even like us.
> 
> Personally, I'm in favour of dropping the mask early on, and those who're going to have a problem with me can just go along their merry way.


See, that's just it though. Many times, these things come up even when one doesn't want them to, they want them left in the past. The problem is, any experience shared with another person, they no longer have control over it.

There are many things about my wife's past that I had no desire to know about, and never asked about. Some things, I wouldn't have dreamed in a million years to even wonder about much less actually ask about, yet here I am, knowing the full gory details.

Just recently, after being with my wife for over four years now, this happened yet again. There was a local band my wife really likes playing at a bar, and so we were going to go see them. This next part, try and stick with the point, and not get sidetracked by the politics of it, but my wife occasionally smokes pot. I don't but it doesn't bother me that she does. Anyway, a week or so before seeing the band, she was talking with one of her friends who was going to be going with us about getting some. Her friend knew someone who had it, and with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, said the guy remembered my wife from 15 years ago. My wife didn't remember him, but it apparently involved some level of nudity and a whole lot of drinking. My wife told her friend to tell the guy to keep it to himself because she knew how I get about those kinds of things. I overheard all that before we went, and just kind of sat on it, waiting to see how it would all play out. Well, after the band was done, my wife and her friend were pretty loaded, and I was the DD, and they wanted to go meet the guy at a different bar, and I'll be damned if it didn't take but five minutes for someone else to bring that past crap up. Even in her drunken state, my wife did her best to deflect things but that only goes so far...props to her for understanding my feelings, and trying to help, but not so much for putting us in that situation in the first place.

I know she has moved on from all that, and is completely devoted to me. This is also not the first time this has happened, and I'm sure it won't be the last. This kind of stuff is not a deal breaker for me because intellectually, I know this is her past, and I don't have anything to worry about when it comes to cheating or anything like that, but damn, it doesn't feel good.


----------



## Vega

Buddy400 said:


> *But, for some reason, women don't seem unduly bothered by this. I'm guessing it's because women are less sex-centric*?


Or, maybe just _more_ mature? Not meaning to insult anyone but, they DO say that men don't _really_ mature until after 40, and that women mature somewhere in their early to mid 20's.


----------



## EllisRedding

Vega said:


> Or, maybe just _more_ mature? Not meaning to insult anyone but, they DO say that men don't _really_ mature until after 40, and that women mature somewhere in their early to mid 20's.


Whoa, I be darned if I let myself mature in my 40s issed::cussing:


----------



## norajane

Buddy400 said:


> That's a great example.
> 
> And, if I was the new guy and it was explained to me like this, I'd understand. Although, since it seems to be more of a preference than painful, humiliating, etc. I might ask you to try it once (although, I probably shouldn't).


That's the thing with this thread - it's so outlandish and it seems to be such a loaded topic, that it's hard to discuss it rationally. 

Most of the time, I'll bet, a woman would be happy to explain why she no longer wants to do something specific sexually. And most of the time, I'll bet, their men would be satisfied with the explanations and not turn it into an argument and an issue because they can understand their wives' perspective once explained. And most of the time, as long as it isn't something abusive, humiliating, painful, illegal in public, whatnot, I'll bet the wives would do it for their spouse at least once if it's important to him as long as it doesn't become a regular thing. But most of the time, if the husbands lead with a demand "you did it for him so you have to do it for me or else that means you don't lust me as much as him!" will get major side eye and a negative response from the wives.


----------



## I Don't Know

Vega said:


> Because there are other things in life to enjoy BESIDES sex. For many, it's not the ONLY thing in life that matters.
> 
> I love bowling, but I don't want to bowl every day, several times a day.
> I love reading a good mystery, but again, I don't want to do it every day, because...
> I also love reading about ancient Egyptian history. And again, I don't want to do it EVERY day, because I also love
> taking long walks...petting the dog...reading a bedtime story to a child...watching a sunset...watching glorious sunset...planning a week of healthy eating for my family...watching a rerun of a certain late night t.v. show...
> 
> I love eating sushi, but again, with so many other foods to enjoy, I wouldn't want to eat it every day!
> 
> Doing the same thing over and over and OVER again, no matter how much you enjoy it FIRST, tends to get 'old' (and boring) after a while. It's like listening to only ONE song every day, when there's so many other great songs around (I wouldn't be able to tell you what my all-time FAVORITE song is!)
> 
> If you set aside time for ONE activity, you won't have time to do the others.
> 
> I wouldn't want to choose what ONE favorite activity is, because I enjoy them ALL.


It's not an either/or situation though, is it?


----------



## Good Guy

Vega said:


> Or, maybe just _more_ mature? Not meaning to insult anyone but, they DO say that men don't _really_ mature until after 40, and that women mature somewhere in their early to mid 20's.


You have a point but I don't believe for one second any wife only wants to be seen as the stable sensible but sexually unattractive good wife and mother her husband chose over the hot sexy but unstable girl he dated when younger - which is how the husband sees himself in these situations. Nothing to do with maturity. No prizes for guessing who the husband is thinking about when they are having sex in this type of marriage.


----------



## Good Guy

norajane said:


> That's the thing with this thread - it's so outlandish and it seems to be such a loaded topic, that it's hard to discuss it rationally.
> 
> Most of the time, I'll bet, a woman would be happy to explain why she no longer wants to do something specific sexually. And most of the time, I'll bet, their men would be satisfied with the explanations and not turn it into an argument and an issue because they can understand their wives' perspective once explained. And most of the time, as long as it isn't something abusive, humiliating, painful, illegal in public, whatnot, I'll bet the wives would do it for their spouse at least once if it's important to him as long as it doesn't become a regular thing. But most of the time, if the husbands lead with a demand "you did it for him so you have to do it for me or else that means you don't lust me as much as him!" will get major side eye and a negative response from the wives.


Well with my sample size of 1, any questions of this nature get replied to with "I feel uncomfortable talking about sex" or "I can't explain it". So that's a brick wall.


----------



## Vega

I Don't Know said:


> It's not an either/or situation though, is it?


Sometimes it is. If I'm reading a good mystery in bed, I'm probably doing it for two reasons: I like reading the book AND reading will make my eyes heavy and I'll fall asleep faster. 

If I substitute sex for reading, I'll be energized and WIDE AWAKE for the next hour or so...which is exactly what I DON'T want at 11 p.m.


----------



## Good Guy

Buddy400 said:


> This happens the other way as well. Guys "settle" for "wife material" instead of high maintenance drama queens. And it's not a secret that they do this (or claim to want to do this).


If I'm totally honest, I regret not doing this myself - and I had the opportunity. If I married again I would choose stable and wanting to have sex with me over personality, beauty, intelligence or anything else.


----------



## norajane

Good Guy said:


> Well with my sample size of 1, any questions of this nature get replied to with "I feel uncomfortable talking about sex" or "I can't explain it". So that's a brick wall.


With that, I'd recommend giving her (and yourself) the benefit of the doubt. Instead of assuming it's because she has some reason like she doesn't lust after you, try accepting that she has her reasons that are about her, not you.

If you can't give your spouse the benefit of the doubt, then that's a separate issue and probably points to more basic problems in your relationship. If you're married, you're playing on the same team - _you're not adversaries, right?_ - and should be able to give each other the benefit of the doubt without assuming the worst first.


----------



## Good Guy

I Don't Know said:


> Most women and a few men, who have been valued (or used) for sex, look at us and say I'd rather be valued for X,Y,Z than for sex. Which is sorta the same thing. They are putting priority on what is harder for them to come by more than that which comes easy.


Is there a post of the year award? Also explains why so many women complain about being "objectified" by men. Even recently talking to a female friend (not my wife) and told her "at least you're more attractive than me" (it was a silly non flirty chat) and she said without missing a beat "yes but you make up for it with your intelligence and wit". I know I'm fairly intelligent and witty. I don't care !!! A reply that hinted at me being at least somewhat attractive would have felt so much better TO ME. I probably pissed her off by saying she was more attractive !

I'd love to be objectified by women for once !!!!


----------



## I Don't Know

Vega said:


> Sometimes it is. If I'm reading a good mystery in bed, I'm probably doing it for two reasons: I like reading the book AND reading will make my eyes heavy and I'll fall asleep faster.
> 
> If I substitute sex for reading, I'll be energized and WIDE AWAKE for the next hour or so...which is exactly what I DON'T want at 11 p.m.


No, but there's plenty of other times during the day that sex could be prioritized. I'm not saying it has to be #1 all day every day. I don't think anyone else was either. 

It just sounded like you were saying a spontaneous BJ at 7:30 would stop you from reading ever again.

Edit: I know you weren't literally saying that but it came across that way, to me anyway.


----------



## Good Guy

I Don't Know said:


> No, but there's plenty of other times during the day that sex could be prioritized. I'm not saying it has to be #1 all day every day. I don't think anyone else was either.
> 
> It just sounded like you were saying a spontaneous BJ at 7:30 would stop you from reading ever again.


Why does sex wake women up (my wife is also like this) but sends men to sleep? For me sex knocks me out cold afterwards, and I've heard others say that too. Masturbation has the opposite effect !

Best sleeping pill there is.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> Is there a post of the year award? Also explains why so many women complain about being "objectified" by men. Even recently talking to a female friend (not my wife) and told her "at least you're more attractive than me" (it was a silly non flirty chat) and she said without missing a beat "yes but you make up for it with your intelligence and wit". I know I'm fairly intelligent and witty. I don't care !!! A reply that hinted at me being at least somewhat attractive would have felt so much better TO ME. I probably pissed her off by saying she was more attractive !
> 
> I'd love to be objectified by women for once !!!!


Why do you need/want a woman to validate you? 

Besides, I don't think you--as a _man_--can compare your physical attractiveness to that of a _woman_.


----------



## samyeagar

Good Guy said:


> Is there a post of the year award? Also explains why so many women complain about being "objectified" by men. Even recently talking to a female friend (not my wife) and told her "at least you're more attractive than me" (it was a silly non flirty chat) and she said without missing a beat "yes but you make up for it with your intelligence and wit". I know I'm fairly intelligent and witty. I don't care !!! A reply that hinted at me being at least somewhat attractive would have felt so much better TO ME. I probably pissed her off by saying she was more attractive !
> 
> I'd love to be objectified by women for once !!!!


Fortunately it's not a zero sum game, but the point still stands...I've expressed similar, and I suspect many men would agree that if there was only the choices...my wife thinks I'm a fantastic cook, and meh in bed, or meh as a cook, and a rockstar in bed...Ideal would be both a rockstar in bed, and an excellent cook, but forced to choose, I'd take being a rockstar in bed every single time.


----------



## Good Guy

Vega said:


> Why do you need/want a woman to validate you?


Because it never happens. It would be nice. I don't think it's "validation" exactly - I'm not losing any sleep over it, or feel less of a person because of it.




Vega said:


> Besides, I don't think you--as a _man_--can compare your physical attractiveness to that of a _woman_.


I have no idea what this means. When I see hordes of women practically drooling over particular guys I can't believe they are not reacting in exactly the same way as guys do to a really hot (attractive is the wrong word) woman. I think women overrate how big a factor their "hotness" is - sure if you are in super babe territory then it is a factor, but it also is for men. But please enlighten me.


----------



## I Don't Know

Vega said:


> *Why do you need/want a woman to validate you?*
> 
> Besides, I don't think you--as a _man_--can compare your physical attractiveness to that of a _woman_.


Because self delusion only gets us so far. :grin2:


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> . But most of the time, if the husbands lead with a demand "you did it for him so you have to do it for me or else that means you don't lust me as much as him!" will get major side eye and a negative response from the wives.


I'll concede that many men probably start out with this, which is a significant mistake.

However, I imagine that many men don't say this, but their wives* hear* this.


----------



## Wolf1974

norajane said:


> I can give you an example of something I enjoyed doing with my fiance in the past, but not anymore. It's the same guy in this case, but it could have just as easily been different guys. My fiance has a photography hobby, so at one point, we brought cameras and video to our bedroom and played around with those. At first it was erotic and fun, then it became "too much" for me in that I started to feel the camera was in charge, so I decided that was enough of that. So we don't do it anymore except for a random picture now and then, very random and few and far between.
> 
> If I were to break up with my fiance, I would not do the photos/videos thing with a new guy despite having enjoyed it in the past. And it has nothing to do with my level of passion for the guy, but the way I felt it changed our sexual dynamic. BUT we do OTHER things now, new things we try, plus the tried and true, and that would be the case if I had a new partner now.
> 
> *People go through phases where some things are erotic, but once they do them, they become less erotic and interesting, or even more trouble than they're worth. Lots of young people also go through experimental phases when they first start to have sex. By the time they have been having sex for years, the same acts that were exciting when they first did them might not ping the erotic circuitry anymore*.


Thanks for having a rational conversation that some others seem incapable of here.

I think I see what your saying here and it might just be that I can't relate because I don't have anything that I tried in the past that I really liked that I don't like now. Maybe I'm just built that way .

At the end of the day though I stand by compatability and that neither gender is wrong for their different viewpoint. If you entered into a new relationship with someone who knew your past with the videotaping and wanted to try that but you said no he would have a decision to make how important that is for him. Me I could care less about it, tried it and don't care one way or another. But I do definitely have sex acts that are non-negotiable for me. so long as I find a partner who enjoys them it's all good :smile2:


----------



## wild jade

samyeagar said:


> I know she has moved on from all that, and is completely devoted to me. This is also not the first time this has happened, and I'm sure it won't be the last. This kind of stuff is not a deal breaker for me because intellectually, I know this is her past, and I don't have anything to worry about when it comes to cheating or anything like that, but damn, it doesn't feel good.


Yeah, I hear ya. My hubby is still friends with practically every woman he's ever been with. In some cases close friends. And no doubt remembers most of them quite fondly. 

It's easy to let jealousy take over, but it is all ancient history. Of course, it certainly helps that for the most part, no one is rubbing my face into it.


----------



## wild jade

Wolf1974 said:


> I am wondering if any woman can give an example of doing sex acts, and loving them, with one partner but finding the love of her life and won't do them with him what they are and why. I am trying to understand the logic behind it from a woman's perspective


I've enjoyed some S&M action in the past. But only with one particular guy, and largely because I couldn't bring myself to make him stop. I suppose I tolerated it, rather than enjoyed it. It wasn't terrible, and interesting to experience, but I really don't actually much enjoy pain and pleasure mixed.

I won't do it again with anyone. Maybe light non-painful stuff. But nothing that actually hurts.


----------



## Wolf1974

wild jade said:


> I've enjoyed some S&M action in the past. But only with one particular guy, and largely because I couldn't bring myself to make him stop. I suppose I *tolerated it, rather than enjoyed it.* It wasn't terrible, and interesting to experience, but I really don't actually much enjoy pain and pleasure mixed.
> 
> I won't do it again with anyone. Maybe light non-painful stuff. But nothing that actually hurts.


Ok but we are sticking with the You enjoyed it in the past and just won't do it now. No one is saying you should do anything you never liked in the first place. Some posters have tried to change the goal posts and make it about that but I am trying to understand the "I loved it once with this guy but won't try it again with the new guy". I'm just trying to understand the thought process or examples like Nora Jane gave because to me if you enjoy something you would want to continue doing it.

Even coming from my own perspective I couldn't imagine something that my partner wanted me to do, that I enjoyed doing, and me saying no. To me that just seems like deliberate withholding.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> *Why does sex wake women up* (my wife is also like this) but sends men to sleep? For me sex knocks me out cold afterwards, and I've heard others say that too. Masturbation has the opposite effect !
> 
> Best sleeping pill there is.


Can't speak for all women of course, but for me, it wakes me up because it's _physical_ exercise and physical exercise revs up my metabolism for several hours after I stop the activity. 

Whether I've lifted weights, ran on the treadmill, did jumping jacks in the living room or had sex, I'm WIDE AWAKE for the next few hours.


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> The good ole golden shower ... Not my thing but I guess that is better than the dirty sanchez, cleveland steamer, or the infamous 2 girls 1 cup :surprise:




Someone's been spending too much time reading Urban Dictionary.:wink2:


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Someone's been spending too much time reading Urban Dictionary.:wink2:


Lol, this stuff was around way before the urban dictionary :wink2:


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> Lol, this stuff was around way before the urban dictionary :wink2:



Okay. I defer to your expertise.:grin2:


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Okay. I defer to your expertise.:grin2:


I used to draw a mean mustache ... :surprise:


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I used to draw a mean mustache ... :surprise:


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


>












>


----------



## Wolf1974

Well that ^^^^^^^^^ escalated quickly
:grin2:


----------



## Wolf1974

Vega said:


> Can't speak for all women of course, but for me, it wakes me up because it's _physical_ exercise and physical exercise revs up my metabolism for several hours after I stop the activity.
> 
> Whether I've lifted weights, ran on the treadmill, did jumping jacks in the living room or had sex, I'm WIDE AWAKE for the next few hours.


Same way here. Once my brain starts going it's going to be awhile before I get back to sleep. I don't sleep well or long to begin with. So sex at night before bed or early when I wake up is fine but not middle of the night


----------



## wild jade

Wolf1974 said:


> Even coming from my own perspective I couldn't imagine something that my partner wanted me to do, that I enjoyed doing, and me saying no. To me that just seems like deliberate withholding.


Yeah, I tend to agree. That's why I suggested upthread that if someone is refusing, it means they either didn't exactly enjoy it, or they stopped enjoying it at some point. That to me, seems very reasonable and probably normal.

If someone truly enjoys something, and still enjoys it, they will want to do it, at least sometimes.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wild jade said:


> Yeah, I tend to agree. That's why I suggested upthread that if someone is refusing, it means they either didn't exactly enjoy it, or they stopped enjoying it at some point. That to me, seems very reasonable and probably normal.


The elephant in the room is that no one wants to admit that it might be that s/he JUST MIGHT NOT BE AS INTO YOU. It CAN happen. What does someone DO about it?


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> The elephant in the room is that no one wants to admit that it might be that s/he JUST MIGHT NOT BE AS INTO YOU. It CAN happen. What does someone DO about it?


You can try to inspire them. Or just end it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> You can try to inspire them.


What is not clearly understood by a lot of posters on this thread is that this is never going to happen when you think of a wife as a sexual service provider.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> What is not clearly understood by a lot of posters on this thread is that this is never going to happen when you think of a wife as a sexual service provider.


Agreed. She is not obligated. He is not entitled.


----------



## samyeagar

wild jade said:


> Yeah, I hear ya. My hubby is still friends with practically every woman he's ever been with. In some cases close friends. And no doubt remembers most of them quite fondly.
> 
> It's easy to let jealousy take over, but it is all ancient history. Of course, it certainly helps that for the most part, no one is rubbing my face into it.


But is it really ancient history when it is being brought up in the present? No, my wife never throws anything in my face, but she has only minimal say in what other people do. Past choices in behavior and people she chose to engage in it with and share it with are more than enough to keep it from becoming history.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> What is not clearly understood by a lot of posters on this thread is that this is never going to happen when you think of a wife as a sexual service provider.


Nor will it happen when one is just not willing to admit and accept that they just aren't as into their partner as they were others.

It is pretty difficult for a lot of people to accept that they like this, and this, and this about their partner and the relationship, and accept this that and the other from their partner, but they just aren't very attracted to them. It sounds pretty crappy when it's actually said out loud. It is especially difficult knowing that to actually acknowledge that as a truth to their partner, there is a very good chance the relationship will end, and they don't want to lose the things they like.

Honey, you're not a very good cook, and I don't like eating your cooking...not very likely to end a marriage.

Honey, you just don't get my motor running and juices flowing, and I really don't like having sex with you...very good chance marriage is over.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Nor will it happen when one is just not willing to admit and accept that they just aren't as into their partner as they were others.


Absolutely not. But who has the problem? Whom does this hurt? I WANT YOU TO ADMIT YOU ARE NOT AS INTO ME. Well k. But why would s/he? It is not his or her problem. She or he is not the one feeling the pain.



> It is pretty difficult for a lot of people to accept that they like this, and this, and this about their partner and the relationship, and accept this that and the other from their partner, but they just aren't very attracted to them. It sounds pretty crappy when it's actually said out loud. It is especially difficult knowing that to actually acknowledge that as a truth to their partner, there is a very good chance the relationship will end, and they don't want to lose the things they like.


Yup.



> Honey, you're not a very good cook, and I don't like eating your cooking...not very likely to end a marriage.
> 
> Honey, you just don't get my motor running and juices flowing, and I really don't like having sex with you...very good chance marriage is over.


Not according to SOOOOO many guys on here who seem to be perfectly happy whinging about their poor sexual quality marriage but who won't do anything about it.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Absolutely not. But who has the problem? Whom does this hurt? I WANT YOU TO ADMIT YOU ARE NOT AS INTO ME. Well k. But why would s/he? It is not his or her problem. She or he is not the one feeling the pain.
> 
> 
> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to SOOOOO many guys on here who seem to be perfectly happy whinging about their poor sexual quality marriage but who won't do anything about it.


Well, that's just it isn't it? Their marriages are already pretty much over, they just aren't willing to admit it.

I also think that in at least some, if not most cases, ultimately there is only so much a person can do to increase that sexual attraction. The raw, base, physical attraction plays a much bigger role that many will admit...it's either there or it isn't.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Well, that's just it isn't it? Their marriages are already pretty much over, they just aren't *willing to admit it*.


Who knows. But the title of the thread speaks massive volumes about attraction.

you did it *for* other men, but not me?

That just is not attractive.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Who knows. But the title of the thread speaks massive volumes about attraction.
> 
> you did it *for* other men, but not me?
> 
> That just is not attractive.


That hits on a very subtle yet telling thing...the whole "What's in a name?" thing. When talking about sex, the prevailing mindset among men and women both is still very much that sex is something done to women by men, which gets back to the notion of women being sexual gatekeepers. The actual thought process may not be that, but the words used do convey that...I am a very big believer in words are very important.

Perhaps a better wording in the thread title, and one that many of the men here seem to addressing is...rather than "you did it *for* other men, but not me?" it should be "you did it *with* other men, but not me?"


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> That hits on a very subtle yet telling thing...the whole "What's in a name?" thing. When talking about sex, the prevailing mindset among men and women both is still very much that sex is something done to women by men, which gets back to the notion of women being sexual gatekeepers.
> 
> Perhaps a better wording in the thread title, and one that many of the men here seem to addressing is...rather than "you did it *for* other men, but not me?" it should be "you did it *with* other men, but not me?"


A person with the latter mindset is going to have an easier time than a person with the former.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> A person with the latter mindset is going to have an easier time than a person with the former.


Absolutely, because the former is based on expectation, while the latter is based on inspiration. The former is looking at someone else, the latter is looking inside ones self. As I stated above, one is a whole lot easier than the other.


----------



## samyeagar

I have no expectation that my wife must be into me. Either she is or isn't. Based on what I know from her actions and words, both past and present, I have a pretty good idea of what her being into someone looks like. Paired with what I know about myself, and the things I need for me to feel attractive, I am able to form the big picture, and it is up to me to make my own decisions for myself, and not force that responsibility onto her.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Absolutely not. But who has the problem? Whom does this hurt? I WANT YOU TO ADMIT YOU ARE NOT AS INTO ME. Well k. But why would s/he? It is not his or her problem. She or he is not the one feeling the pain.


Correct. The person trying to lure you in is not going to admit (often even to themselves) that they are putting on an act.



> Not according to SOOOOO many guys on here who seem to be perfectly happy whinging about their poor sexual quality marriage but who won't do anything about it.


Exactly. We are here whining because we are trying to change the past. We wish she had admitted to us early in the relationship that she wasn't attracted to us. Can't change the past. Now we are invested in a long term sexless marriage with huge costs to divorce. None of the choices are pretty. So if we are not willing to pay the price to divorce, all we have left is to whine. For some of us, there isn't anything we can do to inspire our wives to find us attractive. Or maybe we can, but we don't want to.

Or maybe it is slightly more nefarious. After spending a decade or more trying and failing to get his wife to admit she isn't attracted to him, some warped and twisted men may find a poetic sense of justice in refusing to admit to his wife that he doesn't actually feel about her the way he says he does. And such a warped and twisted man might find some small measure of satisfaction in his ability to convince her that he feels the way he says he feels. After all, turnabout is fair play, right?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Correct. The person trying to lure you in is not going to admit (often even to themselves) that they are putting on an act.


Why on EARTH would anyone want to be married to someone one feels is "luring them in"?? Oh ... because you are not creative enough to find a job locally.




> Exactly. We are here whining because we are trying to change the past. We wish she had admitted to us early in the relationship that she wasn't attracted to us.


You know. I don't mean to be mean. But how long could it have taken you to get that?


----------



## Good Guy

Vega said:


> Can't speak for all women of course, but for me, it wakes me up because it's _physical_ exercise and physical exercise revs up my metabolism for several hours after I stop the activity.
> 
> Whether I've lifted weights, ran on the treadmill, did jumping jacks in the living room or had sex, I'm WIDE AWAKE for the next few hours.


Yeah but it's at least as much if not more exercise for the man generally speaking, and all the other stuff would have me wide awake too ! Must be hormonal.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Why on EARTH would anyone want to be married to someone one feels is "luring them in"?? Oh ... because you are not creative enough to find a job locally.


Because during the "luring one in" phase, the sex is frequent and apparently enthusiastic. So you marry her. Then the sex is dialed back but with many seemingly plausible excuses. It take a while to figure out that the excuses are lies and the truth is that there never was any underlying attraction.



> You know. I don't mean to be mean. But how long could it have taken you to get that?


No offense taken. Long since realized I was an idiot not to notice the red flags.

Look, when you are a guy who has never been very successful with women and never had much sex, you don't know what true enthusiasm looks like. And you are so blinded by the joy of finding someone who is actually willing to have sex with you on a regular basis that you REALLY do not want to "look the gift horse in the mouth" and question whether she truly finds you attractive. So red flags that she isn't really all that into you sexually tend to get ignored because paying attention to the red flags likely means you have to break up with a woman who is currently willing to have sex with you. That means going back to your miserable sexless pre-relationship existence.

Think about it. If I had ever found a woman who WAS enthusiastic about having sex with me, then I would have known that my wife wasn't, and I wouldn't have married her. Or if I did marry her, I would have realized there are other women who find me attractive and divorced her to be with them. But when you have never been with a woman who was enthusiastic, how are you supposed to know that willingness does not equal enthusiasm?

Long winded way of saying that it took me years and years to finally be willing to accept that all the excuses were lies. And that her being raped was not the only barrier to our sexual intimacy.


----------



## Good Guy

NobodySpecial said:


> Absolutely not. But who has the problem? Whom does this hurt? I WANT YOU TO ADMIT YOU ARE NOT AS INTO ME. Well k. But why would s/he? It is not his or her problem. She or he is not the one feeling the pain.


Well it's not much of a relationship then with an attitude like that - you leave the other partner wondering what horrible things are wrong with you or them because you won't give them a proper answer. Looks like you are just keeping them in the marriage for financial or other reasons.

This is almost as bad as infidelity in my book. Why not be honest and let them decide based on your true feelings?

Also what's ultimately in it for the non attracted one to be tied to a partner they aren't attracted to? Ruining two lives.


----------



## Vega

NobodySpecial said:


> What is not clearly understood by a lot of posters on this thread is that this is never going to happen when you think of a wife as a sexual service provider.


Yes! Plus, it may have nothing to do with the person and everything to do with the _ACT_. 

Why are some people determined to make it "all about THEM", especially if it very well may not be?


----------



## Good Guy

Vega said:


> Yes! Plus, it may have nothing to do with the person and everything to do with the _ACT_.
> 
> Why are some people determined to make it "all about THEM", especially if it very well may not be?


Well why not give a good reason then? "I used to like XXXXXX but I don't like it anymore because it hurts since the 2nd child, but we could try YYYY instead" is an acceptable answer from a spouse who actually cares about someone other than themselves. 

Or alternatively "You don't turn me on since you put on 100 pounds." 

Or "I'm not attracted to you"

"I don't want to" isn't.


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> Yes! Plus, it may have nothing to do with the person and everything to do with the _ACT_.
> 
> Why are some people determined to make it "all about THEM", especially if it very well may not be?


What if the act isn't tied up anal? What if the act is simply blurting out how someone else really made their toes curl, yet they rarely, if ever have those unfiltered moments about their current partner?


----------



## samyeagar

Good Guy said:


> Well why not give a good reason then? "I used to like XXXXXX but I don't like it anymore because it hurts since the 2nd child, but we could try YYYY instead" is an acceptable answer from a spouse who actually cares about someone other than themselves.
> 
> Or alternatively "You don't turn me on since you put on 100 pounds."
> 
> Or "I'm not attracted to you"
> 
> "I don't want to" isn't.


They are comfortable in the marriage, and know if they honestly say "They turned me on more than you do" that they will likely lose their marriage as it currently is.


----------



## Vega

Good Guy said:


> Well why not give a good reason then? "I used to like XXXXXX but I don't like it anymore because it hurts since the 2nd child, but we could try YYYY instead" is an acceptable answer from a spouse who actually cares about someone other than themselves.


Would it surprise you to learn that for some spouse, this would _NOT_ be a "good' reason?



> "I don't want to" isn't


I agree, IF (s)he doesn't explain WHY (s)he doesn't want to. If (s)he doesn't follow up with an explanation, I think it's up to his/her spouse to ask. If he or she doesn't at least _ask_, then he or she doesn't get the right to complain.


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> Would it surprise you to learn that for some spouse, this would _NOT_ be a "good' reason?


This wouldn't surprise me at all, though given an explanation along those lines, a good, loving, reasonable spouse would be more than fine with that. Many of us have said exactly that in this thread.





> I agree, IF (s)he doesn't explain WHY (s)he doesn't want to. If (s)he doesn't follow up with an explanation, I think it's up to his/her spouse to ask. If he or she doesn't at least _ask_, then he or she doesn't get the right to complain.


And I think most good, loving, reasonable spouses would provide an explanation without any problems, however, there are some, as we have seen right here in this thread, who feel as if the "because I said so" explanation is more than good enough...

The common tie here...good, loving, reasonable spouses communicating.


----------



## NotEasy

EllisRedding said:


> Whoa, I be darned if I let myself mature in my 40s issed::cussing:


Yes, me too, Peter Pan is my mentor.

And I wonder how many spouses are not attracted because their partner skipped 'mature' and went straight to 'old'. Maturing is fine, but behaving 'old' is stupid. For example, not being willing to play hopscotch with a child is old, rather than mature, and it is not attractive to me. Sure some have bad knees etc, but some just use their age as an excuse for inactivity.

So how many people with these complaints have brought it on themselves. If you complain you are no longer going at it like teenagers, but your ideal afternoon is sleeping in front of the TV, maybe you set the tone and you are the problem.


----------



## samyeagar

Holdingontoit said:


> Because during the "luring one in" phase, the sex is frequent and apparently enthusiastic. So you marry her. Then the sex is dialed back but with many seemingly plausible excuses. It take a while to figure out that the excuses are lies and the truth is that there never was any underlying attraction.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense taken. *Long since realized I was an idiot not to notice the red flags*.
> 
> Look, when you are a guy who has never been very successful with women and never had much sex, you don't know what true enthusiasm looks like. And you are so blinded by the joy of finding someone who is actually willing to have sex with you on a regular basis that you REALLY do not want to "look the gift horse in the mouth" and question whether she truly finds you attractive. So red flags that she isn't really all that into you sexually tend to get ignored because paying attention to the red flags likely means you have to break up with a woman who is currently willing to have sex with you. That means going back to your miserable sexless pre-relationship existence.
> 
> Think about it. If I had ever found a woman who WAS enthusiastic about having sex with me, then I would have known that my wife wasn't, and I wouldn't have married her. Or if I did marry her, I would have realized there are other women who find me attractive and divorced her to be with them. But when you have never been with a woman who was enthusiastic, how are you supposed to know that willingness does not equal enthusiasm?
> 
> Long winded way of saying that it took me years and years to finally be willing to accept that all the excuses were lies. And that her being raped was not the only barrier to our sexual intimacy.


And this entire subject is a red flag. Not necessarily a deal breaker for most, but it is something that needs to be explored. How open a person is sexually, how uninhibited they are is very often dependent upon their partner and how comfortable and into their partner they are. There can be, and often are extenuating circumstances with regards to specific acts, but that level of inhibition is a solid objective measure of how into a partner someone is.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I get this but am still not sure. You want to be your woman's best ever. I know we all do. But the thing that is hard for me is the yard stick being entirely sexual. She married YOU. Your character. Your integrity. Your parenthood. You funniness. Why is that stuff so much less important? *Why the pressure to be a super freak in bed when that ship has sailed in favor of much more satisfying stuff? Why does the ego hurt because you are awesome in other ways?*


Excuse me if this was responded to a thousand times already. I don't visit that much anymore, and I've not read past this point. My response would be a question: "Why was the 5 Languages of Love Material created and sold if it was so simple"? The answer is a lack of empathy IMHO. I realize that's an ironic response considering you're asking why a H can't put himself in her shoes to recognize that he is loved greatly, just in a different way than he expected or wanted. But in reality, we have a certain amount of basic traits that are extremely hard - if not impossible - to deprogram from ourselves in order to force conformity to our partner's desires and/or world outlook if they have different views. The much simpler - and effective approach IMHO - is to speak the "language" our partners best understand. And if at the end of the day it simply comes down to chemistry, i.e. the animalistic attraction that was felt for a past lover can never be given to a spouse, then IMHO that's no way to live. If my wife did not have a strong attraction for me, I'm not sure what I'd do. Most likely, stick it out until the last kid is in college and then pull the plug I suppose. 

Bottom line, everyone deserves to be the object of someone else's affection. Why settle for something less?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

samyeagar said:


> Well, that's just it isn't it? *Their marriages are already pretty much over, they just aren't willing to admit it.*
> 
> I also think that in at least some, if not most cases, ultimately there is only so much a person can do to increase that sexual attraction. The raw, base, physical attraction plays a much bigger role that many will admit...it's either there or it isn't.


I like this post, and the brief exchange between you and nobody special (ha!). I 100% agree that lack of communication, refusal to be honest with yourself and the ability to rationalize oneself to settle in marriage are the huge culprits. It's definitely true, you either have the attraction up front is crucial to a successful relationship, because the probability of it sorting itself out is quite low. What I will take umbrage with is the notion bolded above. Most people aren't that stupid. What also needs to be acknowledged is that the initial mistakes of not doing the due diligence during the dating phase become compounded when property and especially children come into the scene. Most people will throw away the sunk cost mentality for the sake of the kids, and the comfort of the household. I cannot fault someone for trying to make a marriage work in order to provide a stable family for their kids. Infidelity, illegal practices and life threatening situations are the exceptions.


----------



## jlg07

EleGirl said:


> I've never asked a guy for an inventory of every person they have ever had sex with and every sex act they have engaged in. Nor have I been asked this kind of question, ever.


I Have asked and know everything about my wife's sexual past and she knows mine. I would never her deny anything she wanted to try other than a 3rd party. We are both like that. Why not discuss it? At least the partner knows what they are getting into without being blindsided like the OP.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> Agreed. She is not obligated. He is not entitled.


Maybe in your relationship.

My wife is absolutely my sex slave, though I am a benevolent master, and she is obligated and I am entitled.

On the flip, I am her toy that she gets to play with as she wishes.

But I am not dishonest. Mrs. C knew she was going to get her brains f'd out weekly if not daily from the start.

We probably had sex 50 times the week we met.


----------



## Taxman

I was my wife's first. However, if she had a past, and there were acts that she did before we were married with others, that she would not do with me, well I am sorry, but that is a deal-breaker. Male ego, self esteem, whatever. That is the height of disrespect. The wife essentially says, I am doing the minimum, that is all you get. 

Sorry, you do not get to have a compartmentalized sex life, we are married. You do everything with me and more than you did with any previous sex partner.


----------



## sokillme

What does ego have to do with it. If I married someone who went on trips all around the world, but hated Paris because of the person they were with. I still want to go to Paris. You never went to Paris with me! I'm not sure why this concept is so hard. At least take the flight and see if you like it with me. If not you better have some reasonable explanation like you were robbed in Paris, better be not be because now that you are older you are too lazy to make the trip. This is especially wrong if you never told me you went to Paris and hated it. Or worse now they only want to go on day trips, but a few years ago they were traveling all over the world. F that. Somethings up, I would just assume they don't like the company (me). 

However these things should be discussed before you get married. Now what really sucks is if you were the person they made a lot of the trips with but as they got older they only want to do the day trips now and can't wait to get home.

It must be said though it's also a problem if you can go on the same trips but are jelous that others went on the trips too. In today's day and age there is a lot of traveling.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Taxman said:


> I was my wife's first. However, if she had a past, and there were acts that she did before we were married with others, that she would not do with me, well I am sorry, but that is a deal-breaker. Male ego, self esteem, whatever. That is the height of disrespect. The wife essentially says, I am doing the minimum, that is all you get.
> 
> Sorry, you do not get to have a compartmentalized sex life, we are married. You do everything with me and more than you did with any previous sex partner.


So if she did something with a previous partner that she found disgusting, painful or humiliating you'd still expect her to repeat it just to satisfy your ego?

I feel sorry for your wife.


----------



## Young at Heart

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Excuse me if this was responded to a thousand times already. I don't visit that much anymore, and I've not read past this point. My response would be a question: *"Why was the 5 Languages of Love Material created and sold if it was so simple"? The answer is a lack of empathy IMHO. * I realize that's an ironic response considering you're asking why a H can't put himself in her shoes to recognize that he is loved greatly, just in a different way than he expected or wanted. But in reality, we have a certain amount of basic traits that are *extremely hard - if not impossible - to deprogram from ourselves in order to force conformity to our partner's desires* and/or world outlook if they have different views. The much simpler - and effective approach IMHO - is to speak the "language" our partners best understand. And if at the end of the day it simply comes down to chemistry, i.e. the animalistic attraction that was felt for a past lover can never be given to a spouse, then IMHO that's no way to live. If my wife did not have a strong attraction for me, I'm not sure what I'd do. Most likely, stick it out until the last kid is in college and then pull the plug I suppose.
> 
> Bottom line, everyone deserves to be the object of someone else's affection. Why settle for something less?


You are so right about Chapman's 5 LL being important and not "common sense" to many.

My marriage was partially saved by Chapman's 5 LL book. It really hard to reprogram yourself so that you give your spouse the love they need in "their love languages" as opposed to giving it to them in your love language. One of the things that I think is important is that the love language of "touch" is not sex, it is physical skin to skin contact or body pressing against body, like holding hands, a hand on a shoulder, a hug, or an arm around a shoulder. It can sometimes be sex, but it isn't just sex.

It is very hard and requires lots of effort to become fluent in your partner's love languages, but important if you want them to feel loved and cherished.


----------



## Young at Heart

WonkyNinja said:


> So if she did something with a previous partner that she found disgusting, painful or humiliating you'd still expect her to repeat it just to satisfy your ego?
> 
> I feel sorry for your wife.


Well said.

There are things as a youth that I have done with women that I am not very proud of. I would never treat the woman I love and the mother of my children, and my wife of 46 years that way. 

My wife has told me that as a mother and grandmother there are things she will no longer do because of her changed self-image and the changes to her body as she has aged. These include clothes (or lack there of) she will wear for me. My wife has also told me that I didn't marry a [email protected] so don't expect her to perform sex acts like a common street [email protected] 

While my wife wasn't extremely sexually adventurous from the beginning, I do understand how people can change over time. In a committed relationship we need to accept our partner's hard boundaries. That doesn't mean we can't discuss our dreams and desires, it just means we can't try to force someone to change to please you.

For me, it is more that enough that my wife frequently makes love to me and actively shows me she loves me and takes the time to show me her love in both her own and my love languages. Yes there are a lot of sex acts I would love to try with her and will not be able to; still she makes me very happy and I would not want to trade that for anything.


----------



## Taxman

WonkyNinja said:


> So if she did something with a previous partner that she found disgusting, painful or humiliating you'd still expect her to repeat it just to satisfy your ego?
> 
> I feel sorry for your wife.


How very judgemental of you. Thank you, and when you get to 40 years of marriage, we will see if your wisdom improves somewhat.


----------



## Finwe

What a thread. This doesn't only have to be about sex, it can be about anything. I have struggled in this department. I am really easy going and I suspect I know most of my wife's past- but I understand that there might be some things she is not willing to share. That is just reality.

Like I said, I am easy-going and I am that way in my sex life. However, soon after marriage the quality and quantity of our sex life diminished. We went to counseling, I read books, etc. I have put a lot effort into our marriage and sex life but somehow it always ends up the same way. We've had our great periods of sex, but they are few and far between. 

In our discussions, this did come up, "you did it for other men, but not me". Her answer was interesting. She was making poor choices and felt pressured. Now she makes "good choices" and doesn't feel pressured. There is no abuse or anything like that, just a girl wanting attention and getting it when she was younger. 

I have tried many things to get her to be more adventurous, but we always snap back to the same old routine. Now I am weary of it. I view sex as stress. 

Now I don't care. I do not need that added stress. I have a business to run, we have many children, friends, family--a lot of responsibilities and duties. 

So how is our sex life? Completely average, maybe a bit lower than average. My point of view, we have obligatory sex. I don't whine, complain, or be passive-aggressive. I have sex with her just because it is my duty. It's not that bad either, just dull and boring.

It is sort of freeing in a way. I no longer have to be pressured to do other things that don't come naturally to me either. 

Strangely, I am not jealous of the other guys. 

But it hit me one day that I likely was not her #1 choice. Ouch! She has told me otherwise, but her actions tell me different. There was another man that she did not tell me about until many years into our marriage. She told me many other deep and darker things regarding her past, why not this guy?

About a year ago she told me more about him, and the depth of the relationship was strong, over many years. She had concern for the gentlemen well into our marriage because she was worried about his drinking and mental health. They experienced a couple of tragedies together when they were young and had a personal affinity to one another. They never went steady but were more like FWB. 

But she married me, not him. I am responsible, hard-working, better than average looking, and not an alpha male. A good father for her children, which I am. 

How does that make feel? Sad. A bit like a tool. I have a few options, do something about it, or let it go. Sometimes I think about what it could be like it, but it is not. We talked plenty about it. I am not going to divorce or anything dramatic, no way. So I let it go. I have a good life with great kids, awesome friends, excellent business, and great health. Just a boring sex life.


----------



## ConanHub

WonkyNinja said:


> So if she did something with a previous partner that she found disgusting, painful or humiliating you'd still expect her to repeat it just to satisfy your ego?
> 
> I feel sorry for your wife.


That isn't the premise.

The problem is when your spouse did something with someone else and enjoyed doing it but won't do it with you.


----------



## Young at Heart

Finwe said:


> .....I have tried many things to get her to be more adventurous, but we always snap back to the same old routine. Now I am weary of it. I view sex as stress.
> 
> Now I don't care. I do not need that added stress. I have a business to run, we have many children, friends, family--a lot of responsibilities and duties.
> 
> So how is our sex life? Completely average, maybe a bit lower than average. My point of view, we have obligatory sex. I don't whine, complain, or be passive-aggressive. I have sex with her just because it is my duty. It's not that bad either, just dull and boring.
> 
> ....How does that make feel? Sad. A bit like a tool. I have a few options, do something about it, or let it go. Sometimes I think about what it could be like it, but it is not. We talked plenty about it. I am not going to divorce or anything dramatic, no way. So I let it go. I have a good life with great kids, awesome friends, excellent business, and great health. Just a boring sex life.


May I suggest you read the short play, No Exit by Jean Paul Sartre. We all do make our own hell, either by actions or inaction.

I have been married for 46 years and for a while emotionally drifted away from my wife, while she emotionally checked out of our marriage. Eventually it became a sex starved marriage and them my wife started to emotionally hurt me. From what you have described you are probably headed down the same path. I humored myself by saying that I was working late to build my career so that I would get promotions and be a better provider for my wife and children. I was escaping the lack of support and love I felt from my wife and exchanging it for the admiration and respect of my co-workers and employer. 

Eventually, I understood that I needed to try to fight for my marriage. That involved recognizing how I had contributed to the problems in our marriage and change myself and the way I treated my wife. I read lots of relationship books (one person compared it to drinking from a fire hose), attended sex therapist counseling with my wife, attended some relationship seminars/weekend retreats, and learning how to make my wife feel loved again in her love languages (Chapman's 5 Languages of Love).

From what you have written, I think that your marriage is in crisis. My suggestion to you is that you and your wife get some marriage counseling. Don't just give up and check out of your marriage fight for it.

Good luck.


----------



## Finwe

Young at Heart said:


> May I suggest you read the short play, No Exit by Jean Paul Sartre. We all do make our own hell, either by actions or inaction.
> 
> I have been married for 46 years and for a while emotionally drifted away from my wife, while she emotionally checked out of our marriage. Eventually it became a sex starved marriage and them my wife started to emotionally hurt me. From what you have described you are probably headed down the same path. I humored myself by saying that I was working late to build my career so that I would get promotions and be a better provider for my wife and children. I was escaping the lack of support and love I felt from my wife and exchanging it for the admiration and respect of my co-workers and employer.
> 
> Eventually, I understood that I needed to try to fight for my marriage. That involved recognizing how I had contributed to the problems in our marriage and change myself and the way I treated my wife. I read lots of relationship books (one person compared it to drinking from a fire hose), attended sex therapist counseling with my wife, attended some relationship seminars/weekend retreats, and learning how to make my wife feel loved again in her love languages (Chapman's 5 Languages of Love).
> 
> From what you have written, I think that your marriage is in crisis. My suggestion to you is that you and your wife get some marriage counseling. Don't just give up and check out of your marriage fight for it.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you for your advice. Crisis seems to strong a word, but I will listen. I will read the short play.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Finwe said:


> What a thread. This doesn't only have to be about sex, it can be about anything. I have struggled in this department. I am really easy going and I suspect I know most of my wife's past- but I understand that there might be some things she is not willing to share. That is just reality.
> 
> Like I said, I am easy-going and I am that way in my sex life. However, soon after marriage the quality and quantity of our sex life diminished. We went to counseling, I read books, etc. I have put a lot effort into our marriage and sex life but somehow it always ends up the same way. We've had our great periods of sex, but they are few and far between.
> 
> In our discussions, this did come up, "you did it for other men, but not me". Her answer was interesting. She was making poor choices and felt pressured. Now she makes "good choices" and doesn't feel pressured. There is no abuse or anything like that, just a girl wanting attention and getting it when she was younger.
> 
> I have tried many things to get her to be more adventurous, but we always snap back to the same old routine. Now I am weary of it. I view sex as stress.
> 
> Now I don't care. I do not need that added stress. I have a business to run, we have many children, friends, family--a lot of responsibilities and duties.
> 
> So how is our sex life? Completely average, maybe a bit lower than average. My point of view, we have obligatory sex. I don't whine, complain, or be passive-aggressive. I have sex with her just because it is my duty. It's not that bad either, just dull and boring.
> 
> It is sort of freeing in a way. I no longer have to be pressured to do other things that don't come naturally to me either.
> 
> Strangely, I am not jealous of the other guys.
> 
> But it hit me one day that I likely was not her #1 choice. Ouch! She has told me otherwise, but her actions tell me different. There was another man that she did not tell me about until many years into our marriage. She told me many other deep and darker things regarding her past, why not this guy?
> 
> About a year ago she told me more about him, and the depth of the relationship was strong, over many years. She had concern for the gentlemen well into our marriage because she was worried about his drinking and mental health. They experienced a couple of tragedies together when they were young and had a personal affinity to one another. They never went steady but were more like FWB.
> 
> But she married me, not him. I am responsible, hard-working, better than average looking, and not an alpha male. A good father for her children, which I am.
> 
> How does that make feel? Sad. A bit like a tool. I have a few options, do something about it, or let it go. Sometimes I think about what it could be like it, but it is not. We talked plenty about it. I am not going to divorce or anything dramatic, no way. So I let it go. I have a good life with great kids, awesome friends, excellent business, and great health. Just a boring sex life.



Interesting and at the same time very interspect post....i am curious did you ever discuss with her those feelings and what has her reaction been....if not you might want too...i suspect that she feels great shame in that reflecting back....and for as much as you gave her i wonder if she knows how lucky a woman she is now. Thank you for your post.


----------



## Finwe

Yes, we talked much, make progress, and our sex life will take off for a bit, then we fall into old habits. She does feel shame regarding her past, I wish she didn't. It makes her, her. We are both fortunate and are dedicated to our marriage. You're welcome.


----------



## ABHale

Finwe said:


> What a thread. This doesn't only have to be about sex, it can be about anything. I have struggled in this department. I am really easy going and I suspect I know most of my wife's past- but I understand that there might be some things she is not willing to share. That is just reality.
> 
> Like I said, I am easy-going and I am that way in my sex life. However, soon after marriage the quality and quantity of our sex life diminished. We went to counseling, I read books, etc. I have put a lot effort into our marriage and sex life but somehow it always ends up the same way. We've had our great periods of sex, but they are few and far between.
> 
> In our discussions, this did come up, "you did it for other men, but not me". Her answer was interesting. She was making poor choices and felt pressured. Now she makes "good choices" and doesn't feel pressured. There is no abuse or anything like that, just a girl wanting attention and getting it when she was younger.
> 
> I have tried many things to get her to be more adventurous, but we always snap back to the same old routine. Now I am weary of it. I view sex as stress.
> 
> Now I don't care. I do not need that added stress. I have a business to run, we have many children, friends, family--a lot of responsibilities and duties.
> 
> So how is our sex life? Completely average, maybe a bit lower than average. My point of view, we have obligatory sex. I don't whine, complain, or be passive-aggressive. I have sex with her just because it is my duty. It's not that bad either, just dull and boring.
> 
> It is sort of freeing in a way. I no longer have to be pressured to do other things that don't come naturally to me either.
> 
> Strangely, I am not jealous of the other guys.
> 
> But it hit me one day that I likely was not her #1 choice. Ouch! She has told me otherwise, but her actions tell me different. There was another man that she did not tell me about until many years into our marriage. She told me many other deep and darker things regarding her past, why not this guy?
> 
> About a year ago she told me more about him, and the depth of the relationship was strong, over many years. She had concern for the gentlemen well into our marriage because she was worried about his drinking and mental health. They experienced a couple of tragedies together when they were young and had a personal affinity to one another. They never went steady but were more like FWB.
> 
> But she married me, not him. I am responsible, hard-working, better than average looking, and not an alpha male. A good father for her children, which I am.
> 
> How does that make feel? Sad. A bit like a tool. I have a few options, do something about it, or let it go. Sometimes I think about what it could be like it, but it is not. We talked plenty about it. I am not going to divorce or anything dramatic, no way. So I let it go. I have a good life with great kids, awesome friends, excellent business, and great health. Just a boring sex life.


So you are really ok being plan B?


----------



## sokillme

Finwe said:


> What a thread. This doesn't only have to be about sex, it can be about anything. I have struggled in this department. I am really easy going and I suspect I know most of my wife's past- but I understand that there might be some things she is not willing to share. That is just reality.
> 
> Like I said, I am easy-going and I am that way in my sex life. However, soon after marriage the quality and quantity of our sex life diminished. We went to counseling, I read books, etc. I have put a lot effort into our marriage and sex life but somehow it always ends up the same way. We've had our great periods of sex, but they are few and far between.
> 
> In our discussions, this did come up, "you did it for other men, but not me". Her answer was interesting. She was making poor choices and felt pressured. Now she makes "good choices" and doesn't feel pressured. There is no abuse or anything like that, just a girl wanting attention and getting it when she was younger.
> 
> I have tried many things to get her to be more adventurous, but we always snap back to the same old routine. Now I am weary of it. I view sex as stress.
> 
> Now I don't care. I do not need that added stress. I have a business to run, we have many children, friends, family--a lot of responsibilities and duties.
> 
> So how is our sex life? Completely average, maybe a bit lower than average. My point of view, we have obligatory sex. I don't whine, complain, or be passive-aggressive. I have sex with her just because it is my duty. It's not that bad either, just dull and boring.
> 
> It is sort of freeing in a way. I no longer have to be pressured to do other things that don't come naturally to me either.
> 
> Strangely, I am not jealous of the other guys.
> 
> But it hit me one day that I likely was not her #1 choice. Ouch! She has told me otherwise, but her actions tell me different. There was another man that she did not tell me about until many years into our marriage. She told me many other deep and darker things regarding her past, why not this guy?
> 
> About a year ago she told me more about him, and the depth of the relationship was strong, over many years. She had concern for the gentlemen well into our marriage because she was worried about his drinking and mental health. They experienced a couple of tragedies together when they were young and had a personal affinity to one another. They never went steady but were more like FWB.
> 
> But she married me, not him. I am responsible, hard-working, better than average looking, and not an alpha male. A good father for her children, which I am.
> 
> How does that make feel? Sad. A bit like a tool. I have a few options, do something about it, or let it go. Sometimes I think about what it could be like it, but it is not. We talked plenty about it. I am not going to divorce or anything dramatic, no way. So I let it go. I have a good life with great kids, awesome friends, excellent business, and great health. Just a boring sex life.


Baloney I bet if you emotionally manipulated her she would be just as desperate for you. People who go pine away for "dark" people just have self esteem issues. It's why red pill works, unfortunately, but it only works on screwed up people. Sadly for you your wife's motivation in her relationship is fear. Probably always has been. She is pretty sure she has you all sewed up. There are lots of books that basically teach guys how to play on these emotions to get what you want. I don't recommend them because it's a ****ed up thing to do. It's better to just find someone who is emotionally healthy, it's too late for that though. You need to realize the truth, the only reason why are in the situation you are in is because you have chosen to be in it.

I hate to be cynical but keep an eye on your wife, she has some issues. Being the safe choice doesn't seem to be a "safe" place for most men to be, especially when there is a dangerous FWB out there who may return one day. Your wife is pretty confident, it's not like she is working at it. Marriage is hard, and to answer the other poster they never seem to realize how lucky they are, they just seem to get more and more entitled. Both sexes.


----------



## WonkyNinja

ConanHub said:


> That isn't the premise.
> 
> The problem is when your spouse did something with someone else and enjoyed doing it but won't do it with you.


On that point I am in total agreement. And in that case you also need to find out why she enjoyed it with someone else but doesn't want to do it with you, noone wants to be the plan B or "the settling down" option. That works both ways of course.

I was against the statement that anything she did with/for someone else she must do for current partner regardless of whether she enjoys it or not.


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## Finwe

ABHale said:


> So you are really ok being plan B?


Most would see me as a definite "A", but I might be a "B". And this is my view on the matter, definitely not hers. She tells me I am #1 and in all ways, dedicated to our family. This FWB was decades ago and that era has long since past. We are in a different stage of life now, that was decades ago. I have minimal worries regarding fidelity, (I have been on TAM long enough to not say 0 worries).

Let's assume I am the "B". I would be OK. I am responsible for my actions and my life. My life is very full, I have wonderful children, friends, family, hobbies, and a pretty good career. I am healthy, fit, strong, and greatly enjoy my life in all other ways. So perhaps I am an alpha in that respect. I am just not real flagrant about it. For some reason, the bedroom is "weird" for us.


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## GavinM

Not every relationship is healthy. Thats why many of them fail. 

I know many people (men and women) that were in unhealthy relationships. Relationships that were one-sided and/or manipulative. It happens to both sexes but I have known women who were in relationships were they were or thought they were in love but the man completely took advantage of this and had them do things that they werent 100% comfortable with. These arent things that they are going to participate in in a loving, committed and balanced relationship. So their husbands not only dont get these things but might not even be able to imagine their wives ever doing it. This isnt a bad thing, its because their relationship now is loving and sustainable.


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## Holdingontoit

@Finwe: I think your wife is being honest that she enjoys being married to you and that you ar eher #1 choice for a husband. I also think it is true that you don't do it for her sexually. She is OK with that, because sex is not important to her. That is why she was willing to marry a man who doesn't do it for her sexually. And if that is OK for you, great. I am in the same position. Wife likes lots of things about me but not having sex with me. We have great kids and a decent life so I am not leaving. But I long ago gave up on improving the sex because the only way it is going to get better for either of us is if we divorce and find different partners.

i don't wish that outcome on you, but I think it is a definite possibility. Even a guy who is decent looking, fit, etc won't turn on every woman. You might think that a woman would choose to marry a guy she does find attractive and who does turn her on sexually. However, many women choose to prioritize other things and accept less in the sex department to get a guy who meets lots of other needs. Not so much fun to be that guy. But if you don't realize it until years later when you have kids together and your lives are heavily entangled, then separating involves a very high price. Not all of us are willing to pay it.

I hope you resolve your issue to both of your mutual satisfaction, and that you do it together. But I never bet on that outcome when a mismatch is entrenched. And I bet against it when the HD is not willing to divorce over the issue.


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## JDaily

I realize this is an old thread and has not been commented on in some time but I feel compelled to chime in. 

One thing I think a lot of women tend to forget is that sex is of primary importance to happiness to most men. When you think about it, there are few things in life that provide very primal/instinctual happiness. Eating, sleeping, and SEX. Obviously, different people have different views of sex and what it means. That's absolutely okay, but please consider that it is indeed a point of connection, and pride for most men. Sexual acts acts indeed something to be shared with the person you love. For the women that aren't understanding why this hurts, let's say that your husband used to cook wonderful gourmet dinners for his previous girlfriends, or maybe he held the door open for them, or maybe he rubbed their back for them before bed each night. However, with you he refuses to EVER do these things. He says that he enjoyed it with them, but not with you. That's painful!

For myself, I have quite a promiscuous past. One thing I told myself I never wanted to do is to settle. I needed to marry someone that was both the best emotional connection I've ever had as well as the best sexual connection. I wasn't going to marry until I found it. My wife also has a VERY promiscuous past. Before we met, I had slept with about 25-30 women and she had slept with about 30-40 men. I have had a threesome with 2 women before, and she had a threesome with a girl and a guy. While her partner count was higher, I would say that I had more experience with various sex acts and in different places. 

So given this past, when we got together we shared stories openly. Is it still strange hearing about all the things your wife did before you? Absolutely? It makes you competitive. lol. I'm sure she felt the same thing about my past. Each of those crazy things we did before we met were experiences that others had shared with us that we had not shared together. We were/are madly in love and want to share EVERYTHING in this life. I'd be jealous if she has seen a movie with someone else in the past that we hadn't watched together. This is no different. So we sat down and made a list of all the things we had done with others, then we set out to do them together. We had sex in all of the crazy places I had sex before we met. We did all of the things she did with other men. I got to experience them with her. We had threesomes together with other women. There were some things I was doing for the first time and things she was doing for the first time and it was AMAZING to do them together. Then we also made it a point to do things neither of us had ever done before. It was bonding beyond words, and it continues to be. 10 years strong! 

My main point is that sex is indeed intimate, but it's also an experience. Husbands want to have the experience with you. Take it as the ultimate compliment that your husband wants to see you fully open up and share everything with you. 

Now for you guys on this thread, you also have to bring this out of your wife. Don't EVER make her feel guilty or judge her for her past. Maybe it worked for me and my wife because we were both "****s" coming in. Lol. (I don't actually like that word to be honest). But if you want your wife to wild, you have to make her feel safe being wild. As her husband, you should be the safe space that she can completely open up in to. Your wife may not want to do things or say things because she is worried about how you'll judge her or perceive her. My wife knows that there isn't a single fantasy, thought, or feeling she can't share with me, or I with her. If one of us wants something, we express it, communicate it, and find a way to make it happen so that we are both happy. Non-judgmental communication is key, and aim to have fun experiencing everything you are comfortable doing together. Just my two cents.


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## Knips

Whow a what a lucky man. He must have received a serious ego boost living with the knowledge he married with a former **** who acts like a prude in the marriage!


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## [email protected]

Knips, as I see it, she cared more for the OM than her H. This can go one of two ways: He will be perpetually unhappy or they will divorce.


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## ohthanks02

**** man I am going through this too. I just posted something similar to this 
I also found out mostly about her games after we got married and before we got married she told me she would do anything that I want to make me happy but now if i ask her to do something she did with her xbf's or something she tries to make excuses such as it was the past I was young before. She still is young still under 30 but I dont know man Iam just so depressed and so sick of this.


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## ohthanks02

but she lied to him, and he found out after the marriage. Wouldn't that make the husband feel bad? Also he doesnt want a divorce meaning he still loves her i guess. How would you feel if you found out if your husband gave a 20,000$ ring to his ex-wife when proposing and only gave you a 5,000$ ring , ( wealth doesnt matter ). wouldn't you feel betrayed? or feel a big angry? because you think you love him more than his EX does but you received less. 

P.S im not trying to make an argument or fight, just wondering because I have the same situation too


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## [email protected]

ohthanks02, I'm sorry you are in the same situation as the original guy. Gosh, this is nearly five years later than the original post. I have to say it: If your wife won't do for you what she did with the OM, she cares less for you than him.
I don't see any way around it.


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## happiness27

A woman's take on this thread:

A woman is a human being whose sexuality is hers and hers alone to express in any manner she chooses with whomever she chooses at any time she chooses, which all equally applies to a man. The choices all come with results and consequences.

In no way does any human being owe any other human being any sex act they are not willingly and freely giving. 

If I want to perform fellatio with my husband, I will. If I don't, I won't. It's never a given or a guarantee or a promise or an expectation. It's an expression of how I feel at any given time. Same goes for my husband. Cunnilingus is not a guarantee, nor is it expected. Sex is a mutual interaction. What I have or he has done or not done with any other person or would do with any other person is of no consequence to me or to him. And, yes, we have talked about all past relationships. 

I tell him honestly and sincerely that my orgasms with him are the best I've ever experienced and he is the best lover I've ever had, the most sincere and responsive lover and the most understanding and kind - especially under difficulties which naturally present themselves over 28 years of marriage. 

That said, we both admit to having fond memories of a couple of past lovers - and both of us really *get* that without falling into the trap of insecurity or a need for competitiveness. It's just silliness. What we have together is well-beyond some far away weekend past in our 20s. Why not see each other as individuals and honor each other's sexuality with happiness for the other person that they have had a great life of experiences? I have no desire to relive some mid-day tryst in a hasty hotel room over and over again or to recreate that with my husband. 

For me, I like to make every lovemaking session something different and special. Every time is unique in some large or small way. Why would my husband want me to do something that I've done before with some other guy just so he can have the same experience? He's too busy wondering what I'm going to do next to worry about that.


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## [email protected]

In the original post, he said that his wife had lied to him prior to marriage. And furthermore, he mentioned that his W did things in her wild days that she refused to do with him. Clearly, he was wondering why. He seemed to have felt that he was of less value than the W's former lovers. She didn't love them (or so he seemed to believe), yet did wild things with them that are closed off to him. I have to conclude that the W cared more for her ex lovers than her husband.


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## 2ntnuf

I remember this thread. I don't remember exactly what happened in it.

There can be lots of factors in a woman not wanting to do something she did before. She may have been "bragging" when she talked about something. I did things in my youth that I don't want to do again, but sometimes talk about. The thing is, women can have a difficult time stopping a man from doing something they find painful, degrading, or otherwise unacceptable. My guess is, sometimes a woman feels safer just getting through it. 

Sometimes, a woman will marry someone they feel safe with. That doesn't always bring out the animal in them. 

Sometimes a woman wants the man she loves to respect her. She will sometimes not talk about things or do things for fear of losing her spouse's respect. Sometimes, a woman will even lie about what she did for this reason. Again, it doesn't allow a woman to let herself go when she is trying to earn respect or fears discovery. 

I think there are a lot of things women and men don't understand about each other and don't talk about that cause major issues. Even talking about these things can be dangerous, frightening, or risky for some women.


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## manwithnoname

[email protected] said:


> In the original post, he said that his wife had lied to him prior to marriage. And furthermore, he mentioned that his W did things in her wild days that she refused to do with him. Clearly, he was wondering why. He seemed to have felt that he was of less value than the W's former lovers. She didn't love them (or so he seemed to believe), yet did wild things with them that are closed off to him. *I have to conclude that the W cared more for her ex lovers than her husband.*


Was more sexually attracted to them than her husband.


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## Lila

Reading through this thread (and others like it) reinforces my opinion that women should never disclose detailed sexual history to new partners. 

If asked whether she participated or a enjoyed a particular act previously, the only appropriate response should be either a) "I'm not into or interested in that" or b) "That is something I enjoy or would like to try". That's it. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest

When I was 12, I allowed a baby sitters boyfriend to rape me. So I guess when I get home today I need to make sure my husband gets to rape me to. That is about how ridiculous and infant I'll this whole topic is. If I did something years ago that was unpleasant and painful, I do not owe it to my husband. No, I don't. Go buy a pacifier and some diapers or grow up.


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## Knips

That is not the point of this discussion. Rape is without consent and is an illegal and criminal act. Having anal sex with you're permission is another thing. Probably the wife had experimental years with her ex lover and has done it and has no need to do with husband. But maybe the husband wants to experimentate now. The man his issue is that she did these things with a short hookup but not with him. They are sexual incompatible and if this is a major issue for the husband he should divorce and search someone with whom he can experimentate sexually. The wife can accept his divorce if she doesn't want to do these things or she can give in to her husband and perform these acts she did freely in her past with hookups. No one has to do things they don't want to.


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## Married but Happy

Another option is that she did those things _for herself_, not for the previous man. Maybe she did it to try it, and discovered she didn't like it.

On the other hand, what if she wanted - and got - an MFM threesome. And liked it. Should _you_ now be obligated to do that _for her_, too? Suddenly, it's not so clear cut, its it?


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## FieryHairedLady

Maybe the wife felt dirty and used doing those other things? Maybe she thought she was respected and cherished in her marriage and didn't need to do those other things to be loved and wanted?

--------------------
@personofinterest ~ Sorry that happened to you. I doubt you let it happen. You were 12.


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## personofinterest

Bottom line, you don't get to demand that your wife does anything sexually. And the idea that she doesn't love you as much as some past partner just because she won't do it is pathetic and stupid. There's no other way around it. This is a problem with the man's ego and immaturity not the woman. It's one thing if a woman cheats and does all sorts of crazy things with the other man. But when I woman has a relationship from years ago that she tried something and and in she doesn't want to do it when she's married, only a baby of a man would make a big deal out of that period I thank God every day for the husband I have, because apparently he is pretty rare.


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## CharlieParker

From the stay with someone long enough files, there things she did regularly (not just I'll try anything once things) with me that just don't happen anymore. Is lack of reverse cowgirl a grounds for devoice?


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## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Bottom line, you don't get to demand that your wife does anything sexually. And the idea that she doesn't love you as much as some past partner just because she won't do it is pathetic and stupid. There's no other way around it. This is a problem with the man's ego and immaturity not the woman. It's one thing if a woman cheats and does all sorts of crazy things with the other man. But when I woman has a relationship from years ago that she tried something and and in she doesn't want to do it when she's married, only a baby of a man would make a big deal out of that period I thank God every day for the husband I have, because apparently he is pretty rare.


And in the vast majority of cases, things like this are never any kind of issue because most people who are fulfilled and getting their needs met in a relationship don't spend a whole lot of time comparing themselves to the past. They are happy, content and fulfilled. Things like this usually only become an issue when that fulfillment is no longer there. That is when the questioning and wondering starts.

While it is completely irrational, as most all feelings ultimately are, there are some unfortunate analogs to the feelings surrounding the after math of an affair. The feelings that the affair partner got things that the spouse would have liked, wanted but never got. Be it sex acts, gifts, time and effort spent planning a secluded get away, what ever. That the affair partner was somehow worth it, while the spouse was not. And no, I am NOT saying the past is an affair, or a betrayal or has any relevance in that regard. Any similarities end with the feelings.


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## Married but Happy

CharlieParker said:


> From the stay with someone long enough files, there things she did regularly (not just I'll try anything once things) with me that just don't happen anymore. Is lack of reverse cowgirl a grounds for devoice?


That would be your decision, based on how important it is to you. Now, if it were oral sex that she was doing regularly, and then stopped without a valid medical reason, it might persuade me to reconsider the entire relationship.


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## personofinterest

> And in the vast majority of cases, things like this are never any kind of issue because most people who are fulfilled and getting their needs met in a relationship don't spend a whole lot of time comparing themselves to the past. They are happy, content and fulfilled. Things like this usually only become an issue when that fulfillment is no longer there. That is when the questioning and wondering starts.


I used to think this. After spending time on the internet, I think some people are just entitled children who need to keep score. I wish I didn't feel that way, but there's just too much evidence that a small portion of the population are jerks lol

There are two things that I tried one time years ago that I will NEVER do with hubby. Both were humiliating and traumatic (one was terrifying). Thank God my husband has enough respect for me and himself that he would never ask and feels no need to one-up some stranger he's never met. In other words, he is an awesome man.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> I used to think this. After spending time on the internet, I think some people are just entitled children who need to keep score. I wish I didn't feel that way, but there's just too much evidence that a small portion of the population are jerks lol
> 
> *There are two things that I tried one time years ago that I will NEVER do with hubby. Both were humiliating and traumatic (one was terrifying).* Thank God my husband has enough respect for me and himself that he would never ask and feels no need to one-up some stranger he's never met. In other words, he is an awesome man.


And the vast majority of responses in this thread have agreed and said that things like that are not what the issue is. Demanding those types of things that were painful, unenjoyable, traumatic, even when done in the past, somehow should be an expectation or demonstration of what ever, is completely out of line and wrong. Most agree with that.

Another thing to be careful of is taking the bottom half of the internet as somehow representative.

My wife has a broad sexual past, and it's not really an issue for me, because our sex life is completely fulfilling. It's also not an issue because her words and actions have pretty much been consistent. She always strived to be a good lay for her partner. There are specific things she'll never do with me that she had done with others for various reasons other than because she enjoyed it, but I can tell in the things she does, that she always trys to be the best lay, for me, that I have ever had. She is consistent.

The one thing though, that almost blew up our relationship was, in my eyes, a huge inconsistency. She had a really screwed up marriage with her ex-husband. Pretty much every kind of dysfunction you can imagine. He was financially, verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually abusive. There were a lot of things she did sexually that she didn't really want, some she felt were degrading, humiliating. He eventually divorced her, which sent her into a year long tailspin where she did some things sexually that most would probably frown upon.

Things settled down and she managed to right her ship, but...

After being freed from him, no more ties, no more obligations, not having to consider marriage, kids, her relationship, keeping the peace...for a few years, right up until we started dating, she kept going back to him sexually of her own free will, doing things she had previously claimed she only did because of the marital dysfunction and demands of her ex-husband. That seemed rather inconsistent to me, and almost broke us up right before our wedding. However taking a step further back, as completely distasteful as it was, she was consistent in the her desire to be a good lay for her partner, and she knew what it took to be that for him. 

Why she kept going back to him is a whole other issue, not really the subject of this thread.


----------



## personofinterest

You're right about the bottom of the internet. It's just that they're so LOUD lol

It sounds like your wife had some pretty significant after-effects of living with abuse for years. And it sounds like you were/are the kind of partner willing to help her heal, even if it meant you didn't get the whole smorgasboard. You sound like the kind of man my husband is, and your wife is as lucky as I am.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> You're right about the bottom of the internet. It's just that they're so LOUD lol
> 
> It sounds like your wife had some pretty significant after-effects of living with abuse for years. And it sounds like you were/are the kind of partner willing to help her heal, *even if it meant you didn't get the whole smorgasboard*. You sound like the kind of man my husband is, and your wife is as lucky as I am.


This is just it though. I enthusiastically get the things I want. I am never feeling left like she is holding anything back, that she gave more effort or enthusiasm to her past partners.

People tend to put time and effort into things that are important to them. While day to day life needs prioritization of things that may not be enjoyable, they can be and often are still important. It is human nature to try and quantify and rate importance based on the time, effort, and enthusiasm invested, especially when looking from the outside. That may not always lead to a correct conclusion, but it usually does, especially when it comes to how one spends their "free" time.

It is reasonable to conclude that someone who spends an hour and a half cooking complex dinners every night enjoys cooking. It is reasonable to conclude that someone who hits the gym every day enjoys the workout, or at least the end result. It is reasonable to conclude that a grandma has a favorite when she regularly gives one grandson $100 bills, and tells the other grandson no if he asks to borrow 20 bucks.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> This is just it though. I enthusiastically get the things I want. I am never feeling left like she is holding anything back, that she gave more effort or enthusiasm to her past partners.
> 
> People tend to put time and effort into things that are important to them. While day to day life needs prioritization of things that may not be enjoyable, they can be and often are still important. It is human nature to try and quantify and rate importance based on the time, effort, and enthusiasm invested, especially when looking from the outside. That may not always lead to a correct conclusion, but it usually does, especially when it comes to how one spends their "free" time.
> 
> It is reasonable to conclude that someone who spends an hour and a half cooking complex dinners every night enjoys cooking. It is reasonable to conclude that someone who hits the gym every day enjoys the workout, or at least the end result. It is reasonable to conclude that a grandma has a favorite when she regularly gives one grandson $100 bills, and tells the other grandson no if he asks to borrow 20 bucks.


The monetary and tangible examples you gave make sense. However, if I used to love cycling with friend A but now do not enjoy it because I broke my tailbone years ago; therefore I do not cycle with friend B....it would NOT be reasonable for friend B to stamp their feet and declare I don't care about them as much as I did friend A. Friend B would just be being a whiny baby.

Or if used to make pizza for my old boyfriend, but now that I have lost 50 pounds through a lower carb diet and want to keep it off, so I don't make pizza for my new boyfriend, I'd roll my eyes if he decided that meant I didn't care as much for him.

There was a position that used to cause a man to hit my cervix. It was intense. However, after surviving uterine cancer and a surgery that removed my cervix, that position is painful. A man who whined because I didn't do it anymore would be ridiculous.

There's really no excuse for playing the scorekeeping game outside an affair. There's just not. Man up and get over it or dump the woman.


----------



## happiness27

CharlieParker said:


> From the stay with someone long enough files, there things she did regularly (not just I'll try anything once things) with me that just don't happen anymore. Is lack of reverse cowgirl a grounds for devoice?


:rofl:

Chris Rock, the comedian, apparently got divorced fairly recently and was talking about trying to have sex with younger women...and "These younger women all like to be on TOP" but doing that with his wife was not the norm because "a 45 year old woman" is going to be having more trouble with her knees!

So true!

Reverse cowgirl was simple when I was 30 but now I'm a bit embarrassed how long it takes me to get in that position. LOL


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> The monetary and tangible examples you gave make sense. However, if I used to love cycling with friend A but now do not enjoy it because I broke my tailbone years ago; therefore I do not cycle with friend B....it would NOT be reasonable for friend B to stamp their feet and declare I don't care about them as much as I did friend A. Friend B would just be being a whiny baby.
> 
> Or if used to make pizza for my old boyfriend, but now that I have lost 50 pounds through a lower carb diet and want to keep it off, so I don't make pizza for my new boyfriend, I'd roll my eyes if he decided that meant I didn't care as much for him.
> 
> There was a position that used to cause a man to hit my cervix. It was intense. However, after surviving uterine cancer and a surgery that removed my cervix, that position is painful. A man who whined because I didn't do it anymore would be ridiculous.
> 
> There's really no excuse for playing the scorekeeping game outside an affair. There's just not. Man up and get over it or dump the woman.


And all of those things you listed are perfectly reasonable reasons for not doing something, and most in this thread have completely agreed with you when similar things were mentioned, and would be perfectly accepting of that. Most agree that demanding things for the purpose of filling a score card is absolutely disgusting behaviour, and not conducive to a healthy relationship.

This is where communication becomes key. If friend B had no idea you broke your tailbone, and all they knew was that you loved to ride with friend A, but never did with them, it is not an unreasonable line of thought for friend B to wonder what was different, and possibly better about friend A, or possibly not as good about themselves, friend B. Especially if all you said was that you just didn't feel like it any more.

Since sex is a far more personal and intimate subject than biking, it is not unreasonable for that introspection to be more personally and inwardly directed in nature. Wondering what is wrong with them. Outward enthusiasm and involvement is a perfectly reasonable gauge of sexual desire, in fact, since we can't actually see, think, and feel what our partners do, it is about the only gauge. That, and words.


----------



## samyeagar

I have told this story before, but I don't think it would hurt to tell it again.

Early on in our relationship, my now wife and I had discussed sex toys, and I let her know I wasn't really a big fan and they didn't do anything for me, and left it at that. Periodically, she would bring them up again, and I was always less than warm in response. A year or so after we got married, she because a Pure Romance consultant. We were looking through the catalogs as she prepared for her first party, and she made some suggestions of things she wanted to try, but again, I wasn't overly receptive. After a few months, and a few more parties, she became a bit more persistent in wanting me to try some things with her, wanting to know why I wasn't interested, what was wrong beyond just not liking it, and I relented. We were going through the catalog, and she was pointing things out, and it was then that I pretty much had to open up about a few things before my actual knowledge of the products became apparent. My ex-wife and I had pretty much done everything in the whole damned catalog because my ex-wife's best friend was a consultant and gave the stuff to my ex-wife to try and review.

My now wife's reaction was, to me, perfectly understandable. It was very much one of "You did it for other women, but not for me."


----------



## personofinterest

Because sex is so intimate and, for most women, involves emotion as well, it is important not to force her to do things she doesn't like to "make things even" or some such nonsense. Trying to make a woman do X because she did it with Joe 5 years ago is a sure fire way to create a sexual aversion.

So I guess a guy just needs to decide if he can be happy with his partner doing what she is enthusiastic about or risk her being turned off to sex in general for the sake of his ego. Because that really is what it is at its core.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Because sex is so intimate and, for most women, involves emotion as well, it is important not to force her to do things she doesn't like to "make things even" or some such nonsense. Trying to make a woman do X because she did it with Joe 5 years ago is a sure fire way to create a sexual aversion.
> 
> So I guess a guy just needs to decide if he can be happy with his partner doing what she is enthusiastic about or risk her being turned off to sex in general for the sake of his ego. Because that really is what it is at its core.


Communication and sexual compatibility.

It is extremely important to my wife, and she derives a lot of value from being sexually desired by her partner. For her, her sexuality is probably the most important thing to her. She needs those outward expressions of desire from me. I could praise her all day long on how good of a mother she is, how hard of a worker she is, I could bring her flowers and jewelry, and fix stuff around the house, but none of that would mean as much as if I told her she had the best ass I'd ever seen. And then take her in the bedroom and bang her.


----------



## personofinterest

I am much like your wife. I have a very high sex drive, am pretty adventurous, and was in a sexless marriage for a long time. I love that my husband calls me sexy and hoots when I come out of the shower and WANTS me. I still cry over it sometimes.

If he were to become fixated on one of those 2 actions and pressured me to prove I loved him "as much" by doing them....even MY drive would bottom out. I'd be crushed.

This isn't about drive or even compatibility.

It's about respect and love. A man who respects and loves his wife doesn't pressure, nag, or guilt her into doing "that thing she did with Bob in college."


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Do people regularly talk with their SO about their sexual escapades with their exes?? I would never even entertain any conversation. I'd be interesting in whether she has a low or high partner count, but in no way, shape or form do I want to know about the details!


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> I am much like your wife. I have a very high sex drive, am pretty adventurous, and was in a sexless marriage for a long time. I love that my husband calls me sexy and hoots when I come out of the shower and WANTS me. I still cry over it sometimes.
> 
> If he were to become fixated on one of those 2 actions and pressured me to prove I loved him "as much" by doing them....even MY drive would bottom out. I'd be crushed.
> 
> This isn't about drive or even compatibility.
> 
> It's about respect and love. A man who respects and loves his wife doesn't pressure, nag, or guilt her into doing "that thing she did with Bob in college."


And you are coming at this from a place of high mutual desire respect and communication, and a willingness to ensure that your partner never feels second best. I suspect neither of you feel as if the other settled. You know what makes you feel desired, and your husband does too, and he does it. He is capable, and he does it. His specific actions make you feel desired. I suspect it would be a different story if he knew, you knew he was capable, had no real aversion, yet chose not to.


----------



## samyeagar

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Do people regularly talk with their SO about their sexual escapades with their exes?? I would never even entertain any conversation. I'd be interesting in whether she has a low or high partner count, but in no way, shape or form do I want to know about the details!


In my case with my wife, no, we didn't talk in detail about our previous sex lives. However, the farther reaching ones sex life was, the harder it is to keep things from inadvertently, unintentionally, or accidentally popping up. When you least expect it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

CharlieParker said:


> From the stay with someone long enough files, there things she did regularly (not just I'll try anything once things) with me that just don't happen anymore. Is lack of reverse cowgirl a grounds for devoice?


No, but I think you are talking positions, not acts. I think the thread was about acts. On the other hand, if you are making films you'd have to fire her.


----------



## manwithnoname

personofinterest said:


> I am much like your wife. I have a very high sex drive, am pretty adventurous, and was in a sexless marriage for a long time. I love that my husband calls me sexy and hoots when I come out of the shower and WANTS me. I still cry over it sometimes.
> 
> If he were to become fixated on one of those 2 actions and pressured me to prove I loved him "as much" by doing them....even MY drive would bottom out. I'd be crushed.
> 
> This isn't about drive or even compatibility.
> 
> It's about respect and love. *A man who respects and loves his wife doesn't pressure, nag, or guilt her into doing "that thing she did with Bob in college."*


You've driven this same point several times, with a different analogy. 

I think the issue most guys would have is, "She enjoyed what she did with Bob, won't do it with her husband, but would probably do it with Bob again." Are you able to see that side of it?


----------



## happiness27

manwithnoname said:


> You've driven this same point several times, with a different analogy.
> 
> I think the issue most guys would have is, "She enjoyed what she did with Bob, won't do it with her husband, but would probably do it with Bob again." Are you able to see that side of it?


Why would she go back to Bob? If she did, why would her husband care since they would be divorced?


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## TAMAT

i would say that many men want to be better or at least the equal of the sexual partners their W has had in the past.

To lie or omit details about their prior sexual activities to their Hs represents a form of entrapment into marriage and is more like grounds for an annulment than a divorce. 

Perhaps what bothers most men is that their Ws tell them they hate certain acts, but it later slips out that they did them before. 

To not tell deprives the man of the option of breaking up before getting married.

Tamat


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## sokillme

If you are not happy with your sex life say something. If she is not willing to work on it, decide if it is a deal breaker, that is about the best you can do. You can't pressure her into doing it, well you can but in that case you would be better off just leaving.


----------



## BruceBanner

manwithnoname said:


> You've driven this same point several times, with a different analogy.
> 
> I think the issue most guys would have is, "She enjoyed what she did with Bob, won't do it with her husband, but would probably do it with Bob again." Are you able to see that side of it?


No, you're doing it wrong. Women don't see things like men so you need to put it in other words. Now ladies imagine you're talking to your husband about past relationships you've both had. He talks about his first love so-and-so that he proposed to at a five-star restaurant with a ten carat diamond ring. He meticulously planned the entire night out in his mind for weeks and went from store to store just for the perfect ring. Sometimes staying out for hours. You think back to the night he proposed to you at McDonalds and the plain gold ring he presented to you as his future wife and the woman who would bare all of his children. How does that make you feel ladies?


----------



## Livvie

BruceBanner said:


> manwithnoname said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've driven this same point several times, with a different analogy.
> 
> I think the issue most guys would have is, "She enjoyed what she did with Bob, won't do it with her husband, but would probably do it with Bob again." Are you able to see that side of it?
> 
> 
> 
> No. Women don't see things like men so you need to put it in other words. I'll take a knock at it. Now imagine you're talking to your husband about past relationships you've both had. He talks about his first love so-and-so that he proposed to at a five-star restaurant with a ten carat diamond ring. He meticulously planned the entire night out in his mind for weeks and went from store to store just for the perfect ring. Sometimes staying out for hours. You think back to the night he proposed to you at McDonalds and the plain gold ring he presented to you as his future wife and the woman who would bare all of his children. How does that make you feel ladies?
Click to expand...

So you are saying if she did it with "Bob", she should do it with her husband, or he's getting the short end of the stick.

Does that apply the other way around, then, and to other important things? If you are female and your male partner did things with "Jane" in the past, then he should do those things with you, too, then, right? How about all of the men who are divorced and say no, sorry, I'll never get married again. Well if the name of the game is you have to do in the present what you did with others in the past, then that **** shouldn't fly either.


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> And the vast majority of responses in this thread have agreed and said that things like that are not what the issue is. Demanding those types of things that were painful, unenjoyable, traumatic, even when done in the past, somehow should be an expectation or demonstration of what ever, is completely out of line and wrong. Most agree with that.


I've read all 188+ pages of this thread and do not once recall seeing someone demanding that their spouse repeat things with them that were painful, unenjoyable or traumatic.

It would be a nice feature if, before posting on a thread, one had to accept a disclaimer such as your statement above.


----------



## BruceBanner

Livvie said:


> So you are saying if she did it with "Bob", she should do it with her husband, or he's getting the short end of the stick.
> 
> Does that apply the other way around, then, and to other important things? If you are female and your male partner did things with "Jane" in the past, then he should do those things with you, too, then, right? How about all of the men who are divorced and say no, sorry, I'll never get married again. Well if the name of the game is you have to do in the present what you did with others in the past, then that **** shouldn't fly either.


I'm saying that if she did it with "Bob" (a man she probably had no intentions of starting a family with or marrying.) and enjoyed it then _WHY THE ****_ would she not want to do it with the man she deemed worthy enough to get married to? Yes he should want to do those things with his new partner who isn't "Jane" if he enjoyed doing them with "Jane". Wait what do divorced men who say they'll never get married again have to do with what we're talking about exactly?


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> So you are saying if she did it with "Bob", she should do it with her husband, or he's getting the short end of the stick.


No. he's saying that if she did something sexual for Bob, enjoyed doing it (or, at worst. felt meh about it) with Bob, knows that her husband would very much like to do it with her but she won't to it with him (and doesn't give good reason why), then it is entirely possible that she is not as sexually interested in her husband as she was Bob or that she was willing to put more effort into Bob's happiness than she is her husband's.

Now, if her husband knew about this prior to marriage and got married anyway, then he has no right to complain.



Livvie said:


> Does that apply the other way around, then, and to other important things? If you are female and your male partner did things with "Jane" in the past, then he should do those things with you, too, then, right? How about all of the men who are divorced and say no, sorry, I'll never get married again. Well if the name of the game is you have to do in the present what you did with others in the past, then that **** shouldn't fly either.


Yes. Let's say that you marry Bill. You always wanted to have kids but are having trouble conceiving naturally. You want to try IVF but Bill says he's not willing to do that. You're disappointing but accept his position.

Subsequently, you find out that when he was married to his ex-wife (who treated him like dirt), they tried IVF for several years and at great expense. In fact, he did most of the legwork. Found the best doctors. Did a lot of research. Never complained about it at the time. 

You ask him why he did that for the ex but not for you and he says "I'm not the same person I used to be". 

You're just fine with that?

Now, if you knew before you were married that he'd had that experience, hated it and vowed never to do it again. You'd have no reason to complain. You'd be better able to accept it.

If, after confronting him, he explained in a heartfelt manner that he'd just found the experience to be dreadful and found the process to be damaging to relationships; he explained that he's sorry that he never told you because he had no idea that it would ever be relevant; you'd feel better about it and perhaps get past it.

But, if he just said that he was not the same person he used to be" and accused you of just "keeping score", would that be okay?


----------



## Buddy400

BruceBanner said:


> Wait what do divorced men who say they'll never get married again have to do with what we're talking about exactly?


Quite a bit.

She's talking about men who previously were married but won't marry their current SO (whom they are probably telling they love more than previous wives).


----------



## Personal

TAMAT said:


> i would say that many men want to be better or at least the equal of the sexual partners their W has had in the past.


In other words you're saying most men are insecure and have very fragile egos.

I don't think that's true.

Sure there are lots of men who have fragile egos and suffer from insecurity, and all the rest that is somewhat repellant. Yet I wouldn't go as far as suggesting, it's an affliction that blights most men.

Personally I haven't cared and don't care if my current or former sexual partners have had better sexual experiences before me. If they have had better experiences, I hope they had lots of fun when they did.

At the end of the day it didn't and doesn't matter to me. Since whatever sex they had before me and whatever sex they may have after me isn't my business.



TAMAT said:


> To lie or omit details about their prior sexual activities to their Hs represents a form of entrapment into marriage and is more like grounds for an annulment than a divorce.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Nice hyperbole.



TAMAT said:


> Perhaps what bothers most men is that their Ws tell them they hate certain acts, but it later slips out that they did them before.


Does that really happen to most men?

Neither my ex-wife, nor my current wife have ever told me that they have hated any sexual acts.

That said if my wife ever asserts that she hates certain sexual acts, that I didn't know she has done before, yet I subsequently find out that she did. I wouldn't care if she doesn't want to do them, since she is allowed to change her mind and do as she pleases.

I used to enjoy skydiving, abseiling and caving, yet despite enjoying doing such things in the past and remembering such experiences fondly. I have no interest in doing them again and would not do them again, even if I was with a partner who wanted me to do that with them.

So with that being the case I would be a hypocrite to expect someone to want to undertake sexual acts that they don't want to do, even if they used to enjoy it in the past.



TAMAT said:


> To not tell deprives the man of the option of breaking up before getting married.


It doesn't deprive the man of that option. If a man wants to break up before getting married, as an autonomous individual he can break up as he pleases.

No one is obliged to marry anyone, just because they have or haven't been told something.


----------



## Personal

Buddy400 said:


> You're just fine with that?


I would be fine with that.


----------



## manwithnoname

happiness27 said:


> Why would she go back to Bob? If she did, why would her husband care since they would be divorced?


Not saying she'd go back to Bob, just saying that she would want to do those things again, but with Bob, not her husband.


----------



## manwithnoname

Livvie said:


> So you are saying if she did it with "Bob", she should do it with her husband, or he's getting the short end of the stick.
> 
> Does that apply the other way around, then, and to other important things? If you are female and your male partner did things with "Jane" in the past, then he should do those things with you, too, then, right? How about all of the men who are divorced and say no, sorry, I'll never get married again. Well if the name of the game is you have to do in the present what you did with others in the past, then that **** shouldn't fly either.


If the marriage was a traumatic experience, then I would understand. Just like if the sex act was traumatic, it makes sense that they would not want to do it again. 

If you want to marry a guy who said he's not marrying again, then eventually broke up and you found out he married again, how would that feel, knowing it was a lie, and that _YOU_ were not worth marrying?


----------



## Personal

manwithnoname said:


> If you want to marry a guy who said he's not marrying again, then eventually broke up and you found out he married again, how would that feel, knowing it was a lie, and that _YOU_ were not worth marrying?


Shrug. People can change their mind, life goes on.


----------



## Knips

Let's say the way around. Husband has given a lot oral sex in the past to woman he dated but also to one night stands flings. He loved doing that to girls. Now he is married and it is a huge turn on for his wife to receive oral sex. Now hubby never gives oral sex to her, but disclosed he had it done several girls in the past ( short term flings that he felt no love for) and he loved doing that. Now wife feels missed out.I can understand the wife because he did these things for people that meant nothing for him, but for the one he loves he won't do such things. Married sex life is giving things and taking things. If he really loves her and he wants to pleasure her he should be giving that to her. On the other hand if the husband repulses giving oral and never has done it before i can understand that he does not satisfies his wife with oral sex.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I guess it's a good idea to know what you want and need to be happy, and then don't settle. Talk about these embarrassing things in as much detail as humanly possible. Then, you can know by the potential spouse's reactions, if not his/her words, what you should do. 

Unless, those lurv chemicals in the brain and swimming in the blood stream fool a person.


----------



## MapMan

Knips said:


> Let's say the way around. Husband has given a lot oral sex in the past to woman he dated but also to one night stands flings. He loved doing that to girls. Now he is married and it is a huge turn on for his wife to receive oral sex. Now hubby never gives oral sex to her, but disclosed he had it done several girls in the past ( short term flings that he felt no love for) and he loved doing that. Now wife feels missed out.I can understand the wife because he did these things for people that meant nothing for him, but for the one he loves he won't do such things. Married sex life is giving things and taking things. If he really loves her and he wants to pleasure her he should be giving that to her. On the other hand if the husband repulses giving oral and never has done it before i can understand that he does not satisfies his wife with oral sex.


I think men and women just feel differently about this and it shouldn't be discounted. Women want it to be that it doesn't matter, but it just does to many men. Women don't seem to mind who their partner has slept with, but men do, for many reasons that stem from the biological differences between us. There are cultural issues as well. Here is an interesting post related to the topic

https://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/


----------



## MapMan

Knips said:


> Let's say the way around. Husband has given a lot oral sex in the past to woman he dated but also to one night stands flings. He loved doing that to girls. Now he is married and it is a huge turn on for his wife to receive oral sex. Now hubby never gives oral sex to her, but disclosed he had it done several girls in the past ( short term flings that he felt no love for) and he loved doing that. Now wife feels missed out.I can understand the wife because he did these things for people that meant nothing for him, but for the one he loves he won't do such things. Married sex life is giving things and taking things. If he really loves her and he wants to pleasure her he should be giving that to her. On the other hand if the husband repulses giving oral and never has done it before i can understand that he does not satisfies his wife with oral sex.


I think men and women just feel differently about this and it shouldn't be discounted. Women want it to be that it doesn't matter, but it just does to many men. Women don't seem to mind who their partner has slept with, but men do, for many reasons that stem from the biological differences between us. There are cultural issues as well. Here is an interesting post related to the topic

https://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/


----------



## JustTheWife

I can't imagine not allowing my husband to do things that I did with other guys. I've had sex with lots of guys before my husband and he's had no experience but me. He doesn't know about my past but why would I be thinking well I already tried all of that with other guys and decided I didn't like it so you can't try it. Anyway, he doesn't want to ever try anything so it doesn't matter but if he did, he can do whatever he wants.


----------



## minimalME

MapMan said:


> I think men and women just feel differently about this and it shouldn't be discounted. Women want it to be that it doesn't matter, but it just does to many men. *Women don't seem to mind who their partner has slept with, but men do, for many reasons that stem from the biological differences between us*. There are cultural issues as well. Here is an interesting post related to the topic
> 
> https://therationalmale.com/2013/12/03/saving-the-best/


And this is why I think it's wise for women to simply make the past off limits - forever. I don't think any benefit comes from full disclosure, yet it causes a lot of damage.

It's not a matter of lying or hiding (which is actually manipulative to say to someone). Be upfront and tell it like it is - 'it's none of your business'. 

We all want to behave like both sexes can be 'modern' and have sex with whomever, whenever, and that it makes no difference cause we're all so progressive and accepting. 

It just isn't true.

The problem with the woman in the article (and some posters here) is that they felt compelled to explain themselves at all. You don't have to. And if someone walks away because they refuse to respect your privacy, so be it.


----------



## Lila

Knips said:


> Let's say the way around. Husband has given a lot oral sex in the past to woman he dated but also to one night stands flings. He loved doing that to girls. Now he is married and it is a huge turn on for his wife to receive oral sex. Now hubby never gives oral sex to her, but disclosed he had it done several girls in the past ( short term flings that he felt no love for) and he loved doing that. Now wife feels missed out.I can understand the wife because he did these things for people that meant nothing for him, but for the one he loves he won't do such things. Married sex life is giving things and taking things. If he really loves her and he wants to pleasure her he should be giving that to her. On the other hand if the husband repulses giving oral and never has done it before i can understand that he does not satisfies his wife with oral sex.


If this was my friend, I'd call her a ****ing idiot for marrying someone with whom she wasn't sexually compatible. She settled. Too bad, so sad for her. I would tell her to make sure her next man loves eating at the Y and is a champ at it. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

minimalME said:


> And this is why I think it's wise for women to simply make the past off limits - forever. I don't think any benefit comes from full disclosure, yet it causes a lot of damage.
> 
> It's not a matter of lying or hiding (which is actually manipulative to say to someone). Be upfront and tell it like it is - 'it's none of your business'.
> 
> We all want to behave like both sexes can be 'modern' and have sex with whomever, whenever, and that it makes no difference cause we're all so progressive and accepting.
> 
> It just isn't true.
> 
> The problem with the woman in the article (and some posters here) is that they felt compelled to explain themselves at all. You don't have to. And if someone walks away because they refuse to respect your privacy, so be it.


Or men should just marry healthy women who likes sex and don't use it as currency.


----------



## minimalME

sokillme said:


> Or men should just marry healthy women who likes sex and don't use it as currency.


Your comment makes no sense in relation to mine? :scratchhead:


----------



## sokillme

minimalME said:


> Your comment makes no sense in relation to mine? :scratchhead:


Not surprised you don't understand it. Your post basically says keep your whole sex history and for that matter sexuality secret from the primary person in your life. I see this advice a lot, usually from women who had really bad experiences when they were young and now regret some of them. Doesn't make it good advice though. First of all if you can't be honest about your history any history with your potential partner then you shouldn't be marring that person in the first place. That is good advice not lying to them or keeping it hidden. 

Besides that there are healthy people (lots of them women) who like to explore their sexuality as a part of the intimacy of their marriage. They see it as a fun part of the adventure of there marriage. Like trying new food or wine or something. That is what a healthy sex life in marriage should look like. Of course that takes true intimacy and trust, as well as being willing to be a little adventurous. The way I see it just because you went to a restaurant once with someone else, even if you didn't have a good time doesn't mean you should at least try it with your spouse. To a point, but in your case you don't even have a willingness to talk about it. That doesn't sound that appealing in a spouse to me.

Assuming you are going to be faithful to your partner and you want to have sex, this is all you got as far as any avenue for that goes. Assuming they are not abusive or an an ******* you might as well work on it as a team just like everything else in your marriage. I really don't understand and have little patience for people who are selfish in their marriages, that includes housework, conversation, and yes even sex. It's the same thing. Part of being a good spouse is trying to help you spouse have a good life, if that means doing romantic things for them to show them how passionate you love for them is, you do it. If that means being adventitious in bed and trying to show you are passionate for them you do it.

Follow my advice and you will have a better marriage.


----------



## Personal

sokillme said:


> Of course that takes true intimacy and trust, as well as being willing to be a little adventurous.


Any man who thinks that they can generate sexual trust, or feel entitled to the same with a woman. When they are keeping score and coming from a position of insecurity and anxiety, are barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## minimalME

sokillme said:


> Follow my advice and you will have a better marriage.


I disagree.

And I find it interesting that you equate privacy with being unhealthy. You also seem to believe that a woman who shows restraint is a woman who doesn't enjoy sex, isn't adventurous, isn't fun, etc. 

That's a fascinating spin, but you're wrong.

And your advice isn't good advice - it's for self-serving individuals who have an agenda. 

Pressuring or manipulating others for any reason isn't loving or respectful, and the craving to be all knowing is more driven out of a morbid sense of curiosity that can never be satisfied. 

Behavior of this sort doesn't make relationships stronger.


----------



## Livvie

sokillme said:


> minimalME said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is why I think it's wise for women to simply make the past off limits - forever. I don't think any benefit comes from full disclosure, yet it causes a lot of damage.
> 
> It's not a matter of lying or hiding (which is actually manipulative to say to someone). Be upfront and tell it like it is - 'it's none of your business'.
> 
> We all want to behave like both sexes can be 'modern' and have sex with whomever, whenever, and that it makes no difference cause we're all so progressive and accepting.
> 
> It just isn't true.
> 
> The problem with the woman in the article (and some posters here) is that they felt compelled to explain themselves at all. You don't have to. And if someone walks away because they refuse to respect your privacy, so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> Or men should just marry healthy women who likes sex and don't use it as currency.
Click to expand...

I'm a healthy woman who likes sex and does not use it as currency but that doesn't mean that what I liked to do 25 years ago is exactly what I like to do today. Or that what I did with one partner at any point in my life is what I want to "have" to do with every subsequent partner for the rest of my life.


----------



## john117

minimalME said:


> I disagree.
> 
> And I find it interesting that you equate privacy with being unhealthy. You also seem to believe that a woman who shows restraint is a woman who doesn't enjoy sex, isn't adventurous, isn't fun, etc.
> 
> That's a fascinating spin, but you're wrong.
> 
> And your advice isn't good advice - it's for self-serving individuals who have an agenda.
> 
> Pressuring or manipulating others for any reason isn't loving or respectful, and the craving to be all knowing is more driven out of a morbid sense of curiosity that can never be satisfied.
> 
> Behavior of this sort doesn't make relationships stronger.


The advise is wrong until you get burned. Then it becomes gospel.

Despite the often said mantra that people change, they really don't. The past is a very strong influence to the present and future. 

I see no reason to hide my past from any future partner. But I expect the same Carfax like transparency. This crucial when you can't do due diligence on your potential's family which in my experience is the most important information you need.

At my age it doesn't matter but if I were 25 again I've learned enough to not trust people as much as most 25 year olds do. Not just in terms of sexuality but all kinds.


----------



## personofinterest

manwithnoname said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would she go back to Bob? If she did, why would her husband care since they would be divorced?
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying she'd go back to Bob, just saying that she would want to do those things again, but with Bob, not her husband.
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculous stretch. I dont want to do any act ever again with any previous partner. How stupid.

Look guys, we get it. A subset of you will stamp and pitch a temper tantrum if you dont get everything those other guys got.

Because we women are not living, breathing, evolving people. We are a scorecard of acts to which you are entitled.

I dont get it because I was fortunate enough NOT to marry a man from that subset.


----------



## personofinterest

manwithnoname said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would she go back to Bob? If she did, why would her husband care since they would be divorced?
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying she'd go back to Bob, just saying that she would want to do those things again, but with Bob, not her husband.
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculous stretch. I dont want to do any act ever again with any previous partner. How stupid.

Look guys, we get it. A subset of you will stamp and pitch a temper tantrum if you dont get everything those other guys got.

Because we women are not living, breathing, evolving people. We are a scorecard of acts to which you are entitled.

I dont get it because I was fortunate enough NOT to marry a man from that subset.


----------



## sokillme

minimalME said:


> I disagree.
> 
> And I find it interesting that you equate privacy with being unhealthy. You also seem to believe that a woman who shows restraint is a woman who doesn't enjoy sex, isn't adventurous, isn't fun, etc.
> 
> That's a fascinating spin, but you're wrong.
> 
> And your advice isn't good advice - it's for self-serving individuals who have an agenda.
> 
> Pressuring or manipulating others for any reason isn't loving or respectful, and the craving to be all knowing is more driven out of a morbid sense of curiosity that can never be satisfied.
> 
> Behavior of this sort doesn't make relationships stronger.


Not a lot of privacy in marriage. And there certainly should not be a lot of secrets at least not in good ones. 

Again I don't think you and I would mix. If I were pursuing a relationship with you and we started talking about this and you made some declaration that it was none of my business that would be a red flag enough for me to move on. I would tell anyone else to too. It's not like there are not people out there who feel exactly the way I do. It's actually better if you were not with someone like me too, though you seem to be saying you would hide your past to have the opportunity. My question is why would you want to. If you have to go to the lengths of keeping a whole part of yourself hidden what makes you think that has the potential to be a good match anyway? Makes no sense.


----------



## sokillme

Livvie said:


> I'm a healthy woman who likes sex and does not use it as currency but that doesn't mean that what I liked to do 25 years ago is exactly what I like to do today. Or that what I did with one partner at any point in my life is what I want to "have" to do with every subsequent partner for the rest of my life.


I didn't say you have to. I responded specifically to someone advised hiding it from the onset. To which I said better to be with someone healthy, as hiding who you are to avoid conflict is not that. Personally what I find most interesting about this is the general tone of these kind of threads. I don't think either side has a real healthy view of sex. It's not something that is fun, shared and a form of giving with their partner, it's a transactional function in a marriage. There are usually conditions and requirements for the act to even take place. Someone who thinks that way would be someone I would run a full speed to get away from as far as potential mates. I would advise anyone else to do the same.

Threads like this just reinforce my belief that anyone with a high sex count is a risk. I find that lots of people with high sex counts used sex in their dating life as a form of currency. It's why they look back on some of the acts they did and have such bad memories of them. It's not the acts themselves but their motives for doing them. Generally they were young and afraid to say no because they were afraid to lose their partner at the time. As such sex is often times tainted for them. What is interesting is in a different an loving context they may actually enjoy the act. It could have been something fun and exciting between two people who are in love. I mean what better then to have someone you love desire you and experience joy in that desire, in your body and shared intimacy. But that would require thinking about sex in a different context. 

They also continue to take this currency attitude with them into their marriage. They feel like they are married now so why do they have to give so much currency anymore. Plus they now have all the baggage of the crappy people they were with. It's an unhealthy view of sex as something to be used to get something they want. Not an experience to enjoy with their partner. Not a loving way to give to them. 

I think often times the other spouse senses this and its why the pursue it so hard. They feel cheated. In a sense you have been told by your spouse I would only do this act with someone I desperately want to be with, so as that spouse why would you not want them to do it with you? Their spouse has set up their whole sexual dynamic as a form of payment but are now holding out on them. It's not surprising there is sexual dysfunction in the marriage or that both partners are unhappy. Again healthy people don't act this way. They just have fun. Sex is one of the ultimate forms of connecting intimately with your partner. It's about sharing yourself with them. Yet we have on here people advocating for privacy when it comes to this. I stand by my post.


----------



## john117

I'm far more worried about why a potential partner hides something important than what it is.


----------



## CharlieParker

john117 said:


> Despite the often said mantra that people change, they really don't. The past is a very strong influence to the present and future.


A good argument for try before you buy.

Before we got married my wife and I never swung off chandeliers, it wasn't a deal-breaker. Later she mentioned she used to enjoy swinging off chandeliers all the time when she was younger (before me). Was I butt hurt? No, I simply asked if she wanted to do it again. 

But change is possible. Something else had been off the menu from day 1 and I knew it. But after 15 years it became a staple. (FTR, she did say it had never been on the menu with anyone else.)


----------



## NobodySpecial

When I was a young lady, and was learning about sex and relationships, I did things which I liked or didn't. But they were in a certain context, not measured simplistically as an act I liked or didn't like a flavor of ice cream or brand of toilet paper. I married a man who did not weigh and measure sexuality in any way, certainly not as a measurement of my love, attraction and devotion. Had I, I very likely WOULD have hidden events of my past. Being young and nowhere near fully matured (as if there is such a thing) I imagine I could have married differently. Lucky as I am, I married a man who wanted to share and explore sex WITH me, not do things FOR him in a manner that would likely have made me feel like a prostitute bought and paid for. As such, I was not just willing to try new things or retry things whose context was... shall we say, less than ideal. I was enthused. He was gentle and compassionate, making sure things were awesome for me, not just him. While he did want me to open my body for him, he needed to reassure my mind that I was safe and cherished with him. I am glad he did!


----------



## sokillme

NobodySpecial said:


> When I was a young lady, and was learning about sex and relationships, I did things which I liked or didn't. But they were in a certain context, not measured simplistically as an act I liked or didn't like a flavor of ice cream or brand of toilet paper. I married a man who did not weigh and measure sexuality in any way, certainly not as a measurement of my love, attraction and devotion. Had I, I very likely WOULD have hidden events of my past. Being young and nowhere near fully matured (as if there is such a thing) I imagine I could have married differently. Lucky as I am, I married a man who wanted to share and explore sex WITH me, not do things FOR him in a manner that would likely have made me feel like a prostitute bought and paid for. As such, I was not just willing to try new things or retry things whose context was... shall we say, less than ideal. I was enthused. He was gentle and compassionate, making sure things were awesome for me, not just him. While he did want me to open my body for him, he needed to reassure my mind that I was safe and cherished with him. I am glad he did!


That's the way I see it as well. That sound healthy to me.


----------



## Livvie

john117 said:


> I'm far more worried about why a potential partner hides something important than what it is.


John,

Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????

F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!! 

Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?

What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?

What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??

Again, gross and no thank you.

NOYB!


----------



## Livvie

Double post


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> If this was my friend, I'd call her a ****ing idiot for marrying someone with whom she wasn't sexually compatible. She settled. Too bad, so sad for her. I would tell her to make sure her next man loves eating at the Y and is a champ at it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Let's use being able to finish in my partner's mouth being very important to me as an example.

Even though it's important, it isn't, on it's own, a deal breaker. If it was something that my partner just didn't do and never had, I might consider staying in the relationship anyhow (and it would be up to me to not complain about it or build resentment). It would be kind of silly to pass on an otherwise wonderful relationship just due to this one issue.

If I were to discover that she had done this once in the past and had a bad experience, that wouldn't be much of a problem (after all, there must have been some reason why she didn't do it).

If she'd done it for a former boyfriend but hated it, did it only because he insisted on it and she didn't, at the time, have enough of a voice to refuse to do things she didn't want.... Then that's probably okay as well. 

Now, if I overhear her discussing with her friends how she used to swallow all the time for her ex, he loved it and she thought it was hot. Or, she is recalling the same about a ONS she had once..... that's going to be a problem for me.


----------



## sokillme

Livvie said:


> John,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????
> 
> F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!!
> 
> Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?
> 
> What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?
> 
> What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??
> 
> Again, gross and no thank you.
> 
> NOYB!


I agree with this and don't really get why history has anything to do with it. However there is the other side to this too though. Say you want to do something and your partner's response is, nah not doing it I had a bad experience with X when I did it with them, so I will never do it again. Especially if the context is it was only done as a form of payment. That's the kind of thing where I think history especially if it is a history of unhealthy ways of thinking and "using" sex does interfere with a marriage. The fact that sex is even though about that way is a red flag to being with and will probably be brought into your marriage. There are lots of things in marriage that we want are spouses to work at with us. If you are married to someone who doesn't do work around the house or half asses it you have a right to feel taken for granted. Why isn't this also true about your intimacy in your marriage. Any kind of intimacy. 

You see lots of spouses of both sexes do this. For instance there are spouses who get married and completely let themselves go as far as trying to look attractive to their partners. Why is that? Is that fair? I don't think so, I think part of your responsibility to be a good spouse is to take care or yourself and try to be the best person you can be within the context of age and life circumstances. I really don't think your sexual relationship is any different. If your partner really only wants to do missionary and acts like they are doing you a favor you have a right to be disappointed and say so. There is no excuse for being lazy in any aspect of your relationship, assuming your are healthy and have a reasonably decent marriage. That goes for both sexes.


----------



## john117

Livvie said:


> John,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????
> 
> F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!!
> 
> Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?
> 
> What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?
> 
> What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??
> 
> Again, gross and no thank you.
> 
> NOYB!


I'm not expecting details or even repeat performances. 

I'm expecting honest answers as to the frame of mind present then vs now, and the factors that influenced these performances then vs now.

I mean, unless we're talking 100 lb all cartilage no bones partners, oral while driving the Mini Cooper is a bit difficult . But I'd like to know the difference in state of mind between these times and today.

Maybe it's my tendency to observe very carefully and make (mostly correct) guesses or inferences based on seemingly unrelated things, but that's part of the fun in getting into a relationship. The discovery process.


----------



## Livvie

john117 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????
> 
> F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!!
> 
> Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?
> 
> What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?
> 
> What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??
> 
> Again, gross and no thank you.
> 
> NOYB!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not expecting details or even repeat performances.
> 
> I'm expecting honest answers as to the frame of mind present then vs now, and the factors that influenced these performances then vs now.
> 
> I mean, unless we're talking 100 lb all cartilage no bones partners, oral while driving the Mini Cooper is a bit difficult . But I'd like to know the difference in state of mind between these times and today.
> 
> Maybe it's my tendency to observe very carefully and make (mostly correct) guesses or inferences based on seemingly unrelated things, but that's part of the fun in getting into a relationship. The discovery process.
Click to expand...

If you are after answers re factors influencing (you called them) performances then v. now, then you are going to have to be downloaded details about past performances!


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> John,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????
> 
> F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!!
> 
> Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?
> 
> What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?
> 
> What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??
> 
> Again, gross and no thank you.
> 
> NOYB!


True. The last thing I'd want to hear is a detailed description of all my wife's previous sex acts.

But, it isn't that complicated.

If I'd made it clear that I desired some sexual act and my wife declined, it would be a lot better for her to say something along the lines of "I did that in the past but had a really bad experience" or "I've did it when I was young even though I didn't want to and now I regret it" or "I've done that in the past but it feels bad now".

Or, she's entitled to just insist that it's none of my business and hope for the best. If she (or her friends) slip up some time, rightly or not it might be a problem for me (and, assuming that she values the relationship, her)


----------



## Married but Happy

These threads show that sexual compatibility is key before committing to a long term relationship or marriage. The past does not matter much, but the current reality of your sex life does. I wouldn't marry someone who didn't enthusiastically embrace the range of things important to me - and vice versa. They also need to initiate, and the frequency has to be mutually compatible and sustainable. There were (and are) many women I could date and potentially marry, and I had no trouble meeting compatible women in the past. I still could, I'm sure. At most I'd need to make some modest compromises - I'd never need to give up oral sex, for example, and if that wasn't a part of our routine from the beginning, we wouldn't be dating long. If she no longer does threesomes or anal, I don't mind - I can do without those since they aren't important to me if all the other usual things are enjoyed with enthusiasm. If they're important to her, we'll negotiate - or separate. I can't think of anything I want that I don't get if I want, or ask. I know the range of things I like or would like to try, and I have. Same for my wife. If you don't ask up-front about the things that matter, then I don't think you have a good basis to complain later. If you accept limits and regret it, that's on you, too. If you eventually, truly feel you aren't as good as her past lovers because she won't do certain things with you, then all you can do is end the relationship and look for someone who is willing and wanting to do what you like.


----------



## john117

Livvie said:


> If you are after answers re factors influencing (you called them) performances then v. now, then you are going to have to be downloaded details about past performances!


You'd be surprised to learn how much you can learn if you know how to direct a conversation to the right places.

In the 80s we did things in places that were a bit out of the ordinary (study carrels at the main college library afford excellent privacy) yet in our latter post apocalyptic days any form of PDA was deemed nekulturny. 

The answer as to the change surprised even me.


----------



## personofinterest

If a man left me because I wouldnt swallow, I'd be well rid of him.

How pathetic.


----------



## TAMAT

MinimalME,

You wrote * It's not a matter of lying or hiding (which is actually manipulative to say to someone). Be upfront and tell it like it is - 'it's none of your business'. *

That's fine, then the man can decide if he can live with that or not. Personally I think I would likely end the relationship on that basis under most circumstances. 

Minimal what level of disclosure would you be ok with? Names, Duration, etc

Tamat


----------



## Personal

TAMAT said:


> Minimal what level of disclosure would you be ok with? Names, Duration, etc


There's no way I could answer that question accurately, since I didn't keep a diary or score, so I don't remember all of their names or the length of time I was with some of them. Plus despite remembering some events and experiences well, there are some things that are rather vague to me as a consequence of the passing time.


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> Now, if I overhear her discussing with her friends how she used to swallow all the time for her ex, he loved it and she thought it was hot. Or, she is recalling the same about a ONS she had once..... that's going to be a problem for me.


I keep seeing people post this example for argument purposes but have never actually experienced it in real life. 

I have lifelong, very close friends (35+ years as friends) who know my history before my husband and vice versa. I cannot imagine having a discussion with them where I talked so candidly about the intimate details of a long past relationship. The most we've done was to laugh at our previous boyfriends and/or the stupid things we did/believed when we were young. I would go so far as to say that a woman that can't keep her private life private is a bigger problem than one who won't perform a specific sexual act for her spouse. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MAJDEATH

personofinterest said:


> If a man left me because I wouldnt swallow, I'd be well rid of him.
> 
> How pathetic.


If I provided you 150K a year to stay at home, would you consider it?


----------



## TAMAT

Personal,

You wrote,

"i would say that many men want to be better or at least the equal of the sexual partners their W has had in the past."

*In other words you're saying most men are insecure and have very fragile egos.

I don't think that's true.

Sure there are lots of men who have fragile egos and suffer from insecurity, and all the rest that is somewhat repellant. Yet I wouldn't go as far as suggesting, it's an affliction that blights most men.

Personally I haven't cared and don't care if my current or former sexual partners have had better sexual experiences before me. If they have had better experiences, I hope they had lots of fun when they did.

At the end of the day it didn't and doesn't matter to me. Since whatever sex they had before me and whatever sex they may have after me isn't my business. *

I wrote many not most, I have no idea if it is 5% 10% or 35% of males in any given cultural context. However there must be something compelling about this thread as it keeps coming back to life. 

By not knowing a SOs past there is a large piece of intimacy missing, it's not that we live in the past, but that the past lives in us.

"Perhaps what bothers most men is that their Ws tell them they hate certain acts, but it later slips out that they did them before."

*Does that really happen to most men?

Neither my ex-wife, nor my current wife have ever told me that they have hated any sexual acts.

That said if my wife ever asserts that she hates certain sexual acts, that I didn't know she has done before, yet I subsequently find out that she did. I wouldn't care if she doesn't want to do them, since she is allowed to change her mind and do as she pleases.

I used to enjoy skydiving, abseiling and caving, yet despite enjoying doing such things in the past and remembering such experiences fondly. I have no interest in doing them again and would not do them again, even if I was with a partner who wanted me to do that with them.

So with that being the case I would be a hypocrite to expect someone to want to undertake sexual acts that they don't want to do, even if they used to enjoy it in the past. *

Guess I should have wrote of the subset of men who are bothered by their SOs undisclosed past, a subset of that subset finds out after commitment that their wives have engaged in certain types of sex with others but not with them.

Tamat


----------



## personofinterest

MAJDEATH said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a man left me because I wouldnt swallow, I'd be well rid of him.
> 
> How pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> If I provided you 150K a year to stay at home, would you consider it?
Click to expand...

I didnt say I dont do it, I was just commenting on the absurdity.

I think I'd go crazy staying home.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> I keep seeing people post this example for argument purposes but have never actually experienced it in real life.
> 
> I have lifelong, very close friends (35+ years as friends) who know my history before my husband and vice versa. I cannot imagine having a discussion with them where I talked so candidly about the intimate details of a long past relationship. The most we've done was to laugh at our previous boyfriends and/or the stupid things we did/believed when we were young. I would go so far as to say that a woman that can't keep her private life private is a bigger problem than one who won't perform a specific sexual act for her spouse.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I agree. This is very unlikely to happen so, like you, I'm inclined to just keep the details to myself.

Also agree about the inability to keep one's private life private is a problem. 

However, my wife *has* slipped up and said something to me that was contrary to something she'd told me years earlier (or, at least contrary to what I'd understood). It wasn't THAT important (mildly unsettling) and I wasn't about to go rummaging around in Pandora's box. 

I usually only require plausible deniability.


----------



## Personal

Buddy400 said:


> However, my wife *has* slipped up and said something to me that was contrary to something she'd told me years earlier (or, at least contrary to what I'd understood). It wasn't THAT important (mildly unsettling) and I wasn't about to go rummaging around in Pandora's box.


Memory is fallible, over time we sometimes remember events differently, forget somethings and later then remember other things that were forgotten.

A few months ago my wife and I visited a tourist spot. Where my wife then said "do you remember, when we stayed at this hotel" blah, blah etc. Yet I had never been there before, so I said "nope it wasn't me, you're remembering another guy". Which was and is fine, since my wife has had a similar experience with me, as a consequence of my confusing who. Which s hardly a surprise, when recalling some things from over two decades past.


----------



## Personal

TAMAT said:


> I wrote many not most, I have no idea if it is 5% 10% or 35% of males in any given cultural context.


You're right you did write "many" not most, my mistake. I erroneously conflated your writing most later with your writing many earlier.

My statement on and opinion of most still stands.

I agree with you that most men don't have fragile egos and aren't insecure, yet many are unfortunately blighted with that malaise. So please ignore my rebuttal in the first part of that post, since it was superfluous.


----------



## minimalME

TAMAT said:


> Minimal what level of disclosure would you be ok with? Names, Duration, etc


The only topic I'd be completely open about without reserve is medical - going in together for testing and/or disclosing known STDs or other problems. 

I'd also be willing to talk about my standards and preferences, but I'd only do this with present tense statements that define me - 'I love blowjobs.'

I could also get into the 'why'. Why do I love blowjobs? Because I like power and control. I want to hear you moan and yell and beg.

But no 'history'. I'm not getting into how many men I've given blowjobs to, or how many blowjobs I've given, or if I've swallowed for others, or what's the biggest/smallest that I've ever put in my mouth, or who taught me to do this or that. 

It's simply not necessary. 

A history dump is not needed to have an amazing sex life. It's not needed to connect and bond with someone I love.

_I love blowjobs. I would enjoy giving you blowjobs. It would drive me wild to share that experience with you. _ The End.


----------



## personofinterest

MAJDEATH said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a man left me because I wouldnt swallow, I'd be well rid of him.
> 
> How pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> If I provided you 150K a year to stay at home, would you consider it?
Click to expand...

I didnt say I dont do it, I was just commenting on the absurdity.

I think I'd go crazy staying home.


----------



## CharlieParker

minimalME said:


> I'm not getting into *how many* men I've given blowjobs to, or *how many *blowjobs I've given, or if I've swallowed for others, or what's the biggest/smallest that I've ever put in my mouth, or who taught me to do this or that.


Not exactly the topic, but very related, and some guys would find important. 

NSFW


----------



## Personal

CharlieParker said:


> Not exactly the topic, but very related, and some guys would find important.
> 
> NSFW


My wife and I love that movie.


----------



## minimalME

CharlieParker said:


> Not exactly the topic, but very related, and some guys would find important.


Wow - how perfect!


----------



## Wolfman1968

NobodySpecial said:


> When I was a young lady, and was learning about sex and relationships, I did things which I liked or didn't. But they were in a certain context, not measured simplistically as an act I liked or didn't like a flavor of ice cream or brand of toilet paper. I married a man who did not weigh and measure sexuality in any way, certainly not as a measurement of my love, attraction and devotion. Had I, I very likely WOULD have hidden events of my past. Being young and nowhere near fully matured (as if there is such a thing) I imagine I could have married differently. Lucky as I am, I married a man who wanted to share and explore sex WITH me, not do things FOR him in a manner that would likely have made me feel like a prostitute bought and paid for. As such, I was not just willing to try new things or retry things whose context was... shall we say, less than ideal. I was enthused. He was gentle and compassionate, making sure things were awesome for me, not just him. While he did want me to open my body for him, he needed to reassure my mind that I was safe and cherished with him. I am glad he did!


Well, this looks to me like you are illustrating the OP's point.

Your willingness to, as you put it, "try new things or retry things" is a reflection of your relationship with your husband. So, in your words, you are "enthused."

Your post therefore implies that in the absence of such a relationship with your husband, you would NOT be willing to re-try things and you would NOT be "enthused."

Which is what the OP essentially said. The unwillingness of a long-term partner to do things that were willingly done in the past (which were NOT forced, painful, abusive, harmful or rendered now medically/physcially contraindicated, etc.) is a reflection of the feelings for the partner/relationship.


----------



## manwithnoname

Wolfman1968 said:


> Which is what the OP essentially said. The unwillingness of a long-term partner to do things that were willingly done in the past (which were NOT forced, painful, abusive, harmful or rendered now medically/physcially contraindicated, etc.) is a reflection of the feelings for the partner/relationship.


This is what was lost on several comments. 

Great summary.


----------



## Bluesclues

CharlieParker said:


> Not exactly the topic, but very related, and some guys would find important.


Perfect. 

“Try not to suck any ****s on the way to the parking lot!”


----------



## personofinterest

I guess it didnt occur to me that this was a thing.

If I like(d) something that much, of course I would still do it. I mean, I LIKE it. The only reason I WOULDN'T do it was if I really disliked it or it was painful/triggering.

I'm sure there ARE women who arbitrarily decide not to do something they truly like.

I'm skeptical that there are very many of them. Just like I'm skeptical that very many healthy men use this stuff as some relationship barometer.

At least I hope not.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, this looks to me like you are illustrating the OP's point.
> 
> Your willingness to, as you put it, "try new things or retry things" is a reflection of your relationship with your husband. So, in your words, you are "enthused."
> 
> Your post therefore implies that in the absence of such a relationship with your husband, you would NOT be willing to re-try things and you would NOT be "enthused."
> 
> Which is what the OP essentially said. The unwillingness of a long-term partner to do things that were willingly done in the past (which were NOT forced, painful, abusive, harmful or rendered now medically/physcially contraindicated, etc.) is a reflection of the feelings for the partner/relationship.


And it probably isn't "attraction". What would one DO with that information?


----------



## oldtruck

Livvie said:


> John,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically that in my 20s, decades ago, I gave a boyfriend oral sex while he was driving. You think I need to give detail after detail after detail like that from my past-- DECADES worth, to any new man I have a relationship with????
> 
> F that. That's gross. Why would I dredge up decades worth of sex acts of previous relationships and *report out on them* to a new man? Gross!!
> 
> Does he have to know what kind of sex I had my honeymoon night, too?
> 
> What kind of sex I was having when my children were conceived?
> 
> What kind of sex I had on my anniversaries and vacations during my marriage??
> 
> Again, gross and no thank you.
> 
> NOYB!


What if you single now (with same sexual past history) and you married a 
man how through several decades later, never was married, had no to 
very little/hardly any sex.

His mind is going wow not only am I going to have sex I hope to get to do
some many things I never got to do like getting oral at least once while
driving a car.

What do you think his reaction is going to be when you tell him you did
that 25 years ago and you are not going to it now for him?

Here is a man that got married late in life and is pumped up that he is
finally going to get to explore and learn about sex. Only to hear his wife
tell him that he does not need to learn that and she is not going to teach
him.

How do you think this husband will feel?


----------



## personofinterest

Oh good grief.

Are men really this whiny?


----------



## farsidejunky

CharlieParker said:


> Not exactly the topic, but very related, and some guys would find important.
> 
> NSFW
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNY9MQmaBBI&feature=youtu.be


"In a row?!?"

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## oldtruck

NobodySpecial said:


> When I was a young lady, and was learning about sex and relationships, I did things which I liked or didn't. But they were in a certain context, not measured simplistically as an act I liked or didn't like a flavor of ice cream or brand of toilet paper. I married a man who did not weigh and measure sexuality in any way, certainly not as a measurement of my love, attraction and devotion. Had I, I very likely WOULD have hidden events of my past. Being young and nowhere near fully matured (as if there is such a thing) I imagine I could have married differently. Lucky as I am, I married a man who wanted to share and explore sex WITH me, not do things FOR him in a manner that would likely have made me feel like a prostitute bought and paid for. As such, I was not just willing to try new things or retry things whose context was... shall we say, less than ideal. I was enthused. He was gentle and compassionate, making sure things were awesome for me, not just him. While he did want me to open my body for him, he needed to reassure my mind that I was safe and cherished with him. I am glad he did!


1. Most men are open to trying new things with a partner. So when a
man marries he will want to do new things with his wife. So when
he marries a woman and she says no, I have not done those things
and I do not like the thought of doing them.

2. Or a wife says I did those things before but do not want to do them
because I do not like them.

3. Or the wife adds to not wanting to revisit those things but understands
that her husband cannot get to experience things at least once unless
she does them once for him.

I can see most men accepting 1.

I can see most men seeing 2. as an ego blow.

I can see most men seeing 3. as a wife willing to understand his needs
and him to be willing to not have everything that she has already done
be on his bucket list. Compromise.

Compromising is always better than saying no way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

personofinterest said:


> Oh good grief.
> 
> Are men really this whiny?


This topic has confused me for years at TAM, because according to several men at TAM it is somehow normal to be this way (whiny and entitled). Yet no man I’ve ever met in person or dated or married ever said such entitled whiny things to me. None have ever implied that if I did it before I would be expected to do it now. None have ever implied that I must love someone more if I did it for them but not him. None have ever whined “but he got something I didn’t”.

The common theme for these guys seems to be the feeling that their woman just isn’t into them like she was with some other guy and they are pissed off about that. So I think the men who are saying this have experienced that feeling - - and they are very vocal about their hurt feelings so when they respond on these threads they do it with long long answers and lots of “reasons”for why they feel this way. Thus it looks like this is common for men. 

But then you have mature men who don’t feel insecure, whiny and entitled like Personal, who is saying none of this applies to him. His voice sounds more like the men I’ve known and been with. But he gets drowned out by the loud and insecure voices.

I wish these guys would realize what they are really saying: I’m insecure and jealous. Pure and simple. If they could just accept that these are their own feelings instead of trying to make their feelings be their wife’s fault somehow, they would see why these arguments about upholding their whiny entitled feelings are pointless. Again, all they are really saying is I’m insecure and jealous. Put 1,000 words behind it and it doesn’t change, they are still saying the same thing.


----------



## Personal

oldtruck said:


> What if you single now (with same sexual past history) and you married a
> man how through several decades later, never was married, had no to
> very little/hardly any sex.


What woman in her right mind who has any self respect and or options, subject themselves to a banner parade of red flags with a man like that?

If he went decades without getting married and hardly had any sexual experience with anyone at all. He would most certainly have some personality traits that make him somewhat repellent to most women as a potential sexual partner.

Seriously a man like that would have a kaleidoscope of issues, like being somewhat socially inept, passive, needy, insecure and all the rest that comes with guys that can hardly get laid or can't ever get laid.


----------



## Fozzy

Personal said:


> What woman in her right mind who has any self respect and or options, subject themselves to a banner parade of red flags with a man like that?
> 
> If he went decades without getting married and hardly had any sexual experience with anyone at all. He would most certainly have some personality traits that make him somewhat repellent to most women as a potential sexual partner.
> 
> Seriously a man like that would have a kaleidoscope of issues, like being somewhat socially inept, passive, needy, insecure and all the rest that comes with guys that can hardly get laid or can't ever get laid.


It's a long continuum between Don Juan and some incel who's a whisker away from mass murder.

Are a lot of guys insecure? Sure they are. I have a bag full of insecurities, and I'd wager 99% of people on the street do as well. I don't necessarily think that insecurities are inherently bad. Insecurities are our own mind's way of signalling a shortfalling within ourselves. 

Your point remains valid--someone with options will not usually attach themselves to a person who's not at least making progress on dealing with their insecurities. I just don't think it's as black and white as "Secure" or "Insecure". Honestly, I'd strongly question the mental health of anyone with NO insecurities at all.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> This topic has confused me for years at TAM, because according to several men at TAM it is somehow normal to be this way (whiny and entitled). Yet no man I’ve ever met in person or dated or married ever said such entitled whiny things to me. None have ever implied that if I did it before I would be expected to do it now. None have ever implied that I must love someone more if I did it for them but not him. None have ever whined “but he got something I didn’t”.
> 
> The common theme for these guys seems to be the feeling that their woman just isn’t into them like she was with some other guy and they are pissed off about that. So I think the men who are saying this have experienced that feeling - - and they are very vocal about their hurt feelings so when they respond on these threads they do it with long long answers and lots of “reasons”for why they feel this way. Thus it looks like this is common for men.
> 
> But then you have mature men who don’t feel insecure, whiny and entitled like Personal, who is saying none of this applies to him. His voice sounds more like the men I’ve known and been with. But he gets drowned out by the loud and insecure voices.
> 
> I wish these guys would realize what they are really saying: I’m insecure and jealous. Pure and simple. If they could just accept that these are their own feelings instead of trying to make their feelings be their wife’s fault somehow, they would see why these arguments about upholding their whiny entitled feelings are pointless. Again, all they are really saying is I’m insecure and jealous. Put 1,000 words behind it and it doesn’t change, they are still saying the same thing.


I guess the bottom line is that, if the guy is that concerned his gal isn't as into him as she was her ex, then maybe she's not the gal for him. Why would he really want to stay with her anyway?

There's two basic possibilities here:
1. She doesn't do all those crazy things with him because she's not as hot for him. So break it off and move on. If she's not hot for him, better to break it off now rather than to cling to something that's not working and will likely end up in infidelity and/or divorce eventually anyway.
2. She doesn't do all those crazy things with him because she never really enjoyed them in the first place, or because she simply doesn't enjoy them any more. In which case it's not about him at all and he has no grounds for complaint. 

Either way, complaining, or demonstrating insecurity isn't going to help the situation. 

I do sympathize with men in this situation to the extent that it's rather difficult to know for sure if the underlying cause is #1 or #2, each of which requires a very different response. I'm no expert here, but I've seen some women swear it's #2 just so they could hang on to their security blanket which is a foul; one that can lead to tragic consequences.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> It's a long continuum between Don Juan and some incel who's a whisker away from mass murder.
> 
> Are a lot of guys insecure? Sure they are. I have a bag full of insecurities, and I'd wager 99% of people on the street do as well. I don't necessarily think that insecurities are inherently bad. Insecurities are our own mind's way of signalling a shortfalling within ourselves.
> 
> Your point remains valid--someone with options will not usually attach themselves to a person who's not at least making progress on dealing with their insecurities. I just don't think it's as black and white as "Secure" or "Insecure". Honestly, I'd strongly question the mental health of anyone with NO insecurities at all.


Yes, I totally agree. That’s why on these types of threads, if men simply stated it makes them insecure instead of going on 1,000 word rants to “explain” why they are “right”, perhaps it would make more sense to women who are reading it.

I’ve had many insecurities in my life and they suck. But I’ve finally reached the point where I know that if I’m insecure, that’s on me. It is something going on in my mind. It is about me and my feelings about myself. I could point to all these “reasons” for my insecurity and try to blame someone else for them but that would be pointless and would never get at the root of the issue which is my own thoughts and feelings. If someone is partnered with a person who deliberately puts them down or tries to make them insecure, then they have chosen a crappy partner and nothing is going to change unless they leave or somehow learn to get a handle on their own feelings and not allow the partner to make them feel insecure even if they try.

We all have choices to make about our own internal mental workings. If someone wants to remain focused on their insecurities while at the same time blaming someone else for them, that person is going to be miserable for a long time.


----------



## Personal

@Fozzy if a guy seldom ever got laid for decades, as per the hypothetical chap from the post I quoted. That hypothetical man would have some significant issues, to the point that he would certainly be poor sexual relationship material.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Personal said:


> @Fozzy if a guy seldom ever got laid for decades, as per the hypothetical chap from the post I quoted. That hypothetical man would have some significant issues, to the point that he would certainly be poor sexual relationship material.


Are you saying that guys that don't have sex have significant issues? I am not sure that would always be the case.


----------



## Personal

@Fozzy a sidebar question if you don't mind, do you feel more insecure or less insecure as you get older?

I'm just curious since yo mention questioning the health of someone who claims no insecurity.

As I get older, I am finding that I feel more secure in myself.


----------



## Personal

SadSamIAm said:


> Are you saying that guys that don't have sex have significant issues? I am not sure that would always be the case.


I doubt that would always be the case either, although I think it is highly likely that many would ave issues. That said it isn't the ones that don't have it that I am referring to, I'm thinking of the ones who have significant difficulty in being able to get sex.


----------



## john117

Let's say I'm a great cook and can make a devilishly good cheesecake for my current guy but my next guy only gets Aldi's box cake mixes because "I doesn't feel like baking these days" or "I'm watching what I eat" or a myriad of excuses.

Is it insecurities or whining to expect a similar level of effort?


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> Let's say I'm a great cook and can make a devilishly good cheesecake for my current guy but my next guy only gets Aldi's box cake mixes because "I doesn't feel like baking these days" or "I'm watching what I eat" or a myriad of excuses.
> 
> Is it insecurities or whining to expect a similar level of effort?


Same argument has been made dozens of times now. The analogy doesn’t work and once again, all it is saying is “it makes me jealous and insecure that you did something with someone else that you won’t do with me.” Honestly is the best policy. Just say “I’m jealous and insecure” and then see if she will help you deal with it. But she may tell you that your insecurities are your own problem and that would be correct. On the other hand she may listen and try to understand and empathize. Again, this is if he is just honest and straightforward. If instead he spends an hour whining and making illogical analogies, she’s for sure going to tell him to go pound sand.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Wow...Just saw the 'born on date" of this thread.

*Some serious "walking dead" thread here.

Being that as it may, when you suddenly find out your spouse deceived or outright lied about personality traits and sexual habits. Me thinks the problem lies with communication issues BEFORE marriage.

And lets say, you find your spouse to have more mileage than a Michelin tire, and now she is a cat lady and nun in your bedroom. Well, you need to find out if your "man" enough as others said....To accept you are a plan B.

If you haven't come to terms with Sexual Marketplace Value with your partner....It's on you. You made your bed, now sleep in it. Or if you can't...Get out and leave a 20 on the nightstand. lol


----------



## personofinterest

Lying is one thing. It's deception.

But sans the lying, it really IS just a jealous temper tantrum.


----------



## Fozzy

Personal said:


> @Fozzy a sidebar question if you don't mind, do you feel more insecure or less insecure as you get older?
> 
> I'm just curious since yo mention questioning the health of someone who claims no insecurity.
> 
> As I get older, I am finding that I feel more secure in myself.


That's a really interesting question. I don't think I've ever taken an actual "inventory" of my insecurities since they're all constantly beating down my door anyway. I probably should do that as an exercise sometime.

If I had to guess I'd say that many of my insecurities have changed with age. Certainly my looks are a perennial favorite, but other things that I used to worry about have dropped away and been replaced by others. I never used to worry about job security because I've always found it pretty easy to get and maintain a job, however that's becoming more of a challenge as i get older, especially in my line of work. So my insecurity as a provider for my family has definitely ramped up as my family has grown, and as I've grown older. The stakes are much higher now, and my ability to compete has diminished relative to the rest of the workforce.

I do think I've made a lot of progress with relationship insecurities, but I started in a deep hole on that one. Still working through some of that.


----------



## Fozzy

Personal said:


> @Fozzy a sidebar question if you don't mind, do you feel more insecure or less insecure as you get older?
> 
> I'm just curious since yo mention questioning the health of someone who claims no insecurity.
> 
> As I get older, I am finding that I feel more secure in myself.


I think what I was getting at with my comment about people who claim no insecurity is two-fold. Some people use bravado as a mask. Tons of that. But I suspect there actually are people who have NO insecurity, and I think that can be downright dangerous in some circumstances. Unjustified confidence and all that. Additionally, I think that without the opportunity to challenge our own insecurities, we're robbed of an opportunity to grow. What motivation is there for a person who never doubts themselves to improve?


----------



## john117

"all it is saying is “it makes me jealous and insecure that you did something with someone else that you won’t do with me.”"

Speaking personally, I'm more concerned about (a) why she won't bake me the cheesecake and (b) about the lack of communication regarding the topic. 

The cheesecake in itself is irrelevant yet it's impact is relevant. It's not insecurities or whining to want to know the reason behind such decisions. 

I'm surprised that the TAM mantra of open communication and transparency doesn't seem to apply here...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Fozzy said:


> I think what I was getting at with my comment about people who claim no insecurity is two-fold. Some people use bravado as a mask. Tons of that. But I suspect there actually are people who have NO insecurity, and I think that can be downright dangerous in some circumstances. Unjustified confidence and all that. Additionally, I think that without the opportunity to challenge our own insecurities, we're robbed of an opportunity to grow. What motivation is there for a person who never doubts themselves to improve?


Can we not see our own failings and opportunities for growth without being insecure? Indeed, insecurity has a habit of driving even worse behavior than fixing it. Insecurity tells you "you're not good enough" which is a major destroyer of the confidence required to fix things.

Not being insecure is not the same as never doubting yourself. In fact, one must be rather self-assured to truly look ones self in the mirror and see the real picture. 

I understand my failings, but I can best work on them without the negative emotional baggage that comes with insecurity.


----------



## MZMEE

I am a woman.

Ok first you have to stop comparing yourself to what she did with people of the past. That's your ego/insecurities that you have to resolve within yourself. Build your own confidence in who you are and this ceases to be an issue. This type of mistake can be very detrimental to your marriage because you refuse to give YOU AND HER a chance to build what you and her have and not relationships of the past. What men don't realize many times is the union between two people are like two chemicals coming together. Though the act of sex is mechanically the same, the chemistry and experience is different from person to person. DIFFERENT..not always better or worse.

In my past I did some things with other men that I don't do with my husband because i didn't like what I did with the other men or what worked "mechanically" with other men may not work in this union. It doesn't mean I look at my husband as less than because of it either. We do what works for us and as long as it brings us both pleasure...who cares what went down with past relationships.

Don't kill your marriage with this kind of thinking. Try thinking like this:

1. Look at just adding new and spicy things to your relationship instead of having the mind side of "you did it with him and not with me". 
2. You need to accept the fact that you may not be able to do everything someone else did and be comfortable with that. You cannot be ALL THINGS to her and she can't be ALL THINGS to you. You have to respect the fact that EVERY human being has limitations.

You have to be comfortable realizing that sex will not always be the same as you both get older. I don't know how old you are but when you start getting in your 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. you will be in for a rude awakening that her vagina and hormones will change. Your penis and stamina will change. But you can't take all that as failure. You can't keep thinking you are less than because things change.

Keep your mind focused on what you are your wife can create in the bedroom and forget about her past. Stop asking questions about what she did with others in the past. You are not them. AND most importantly it doesn't take away from who you are just becuase you don't do something.

Good luck.


----------



## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> I wish these guys would realize what they are really saying: I’m insecure and jealous. Pure and simple. If they could just accept that these are their own feelings instead of trying to make their feelings be their wife’s fault somehow, they would see why these arguments about upholding their whiny entitled feelings are pointless. Again, all they are really saying is I’m insecure and jealous. Put 1,000 words behind it and it doesn’t change, they are still saying the same thing.


Maybe what they are staying is their wives are boring in bed. Lots of these guys just don't have the communication skills or the introspection to even say such a thing. I don't have a lot of sympathy for these guys because whining about anything is not a way to get something you want. Besides that you married this person. But I also feel like if you want adventurous sex marry someone who it's important to have adventurous sex. Who sees sexual exploration as a part of marital intimacy not just some kind of reward for good behavior. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be good to your wife by the way, but it shouldn't be for sex and sex shouldn't necessarily be dependent on you doing everything right. When the talks get to this point in my mind it's usually a sign that there is not a healthy idea of what sex could be. Again it's all about a point system and not a way to share yourself with someone, usually both spouses do that. It's not surprising as our whole dating culture sets sex up as a marker of self worth. Is it any surprise that this kind of thinking follows into marriage and creates problems. 

I have never asked or care about my wife's history except to say that she had the same feelings about it's importance and uniqueness that I had. I have never asked about her previous partners or individual experiences. I would however have a problem if she stopped seeing it as a way for us to be intimate and decided to use it as a tool for our relationship. I would also have a problem if I was being judged by her experiences with other men. Just by the basis of that happening that means that her sexual history is influencing our marriage or the sex in our marriage. It's a huge double standard in my mind to say you have no right to know about my sexual history, but then in the same respect have that sexual history have influence on the the sex IN our marriage. Don't ask me to take a vow for you if you are not willing to be honest with me about the thing I am vowing to never do with another person. And **** if a person is taking a vow to do something only with you, you better damn sure try to be good at that thing they are giving only to you. If I made my wife a vow that she can only eat dinner that I cook I would be a pretty ****ty husband if I only cooked burgers and franks every night. That is like marriage 101 if you can't do that you shouldn't be married. 

Like anything else in marriage you have a right to ask for something. Your spouse has a right to say no. Then you have to decide if you are willing to accept that or move on.


----------



## Fozzy

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Can we not see our own failings and opportunities for growth without being insecure? Indeed, insecurity has a habit of driving even worse behavior than fixing it. Insecurity tells you "you're not good enough" which is a major destroyer of the confidence required to fix things.
> 
> Not being insecure is not the same as never doubting yourself. In fact, one must be rather self-assured to truly look ones self in the mirror and see the real picture.
> 
> I understand my failings, but I can best work on them without the negative emotional baggage that comes with insecurity.


If you take the textbook definition of insecurity, being anxiety or uncertainty about oneself, I don't think it necessarily comes hand in hand with negative emotional baggage. The baggage comes along as a result of not recognizing and confronting your insecurities.


----------



## Livvie

john117 said:


> Let's say I'm a great cook and can make a devilishly good cheesecake for my current guy but my next guy only gets Aldi's box cake mixes because "I doesn't feel like baking these days" or "I'm watching what I eat" or a myriad of excuses.
> 
> Is it insecurities or whining to expect a similar level of effort?


It goes both ways then, doesn't it? If so, a woman should expect and receive the very same effort men have given previous partners, even if decades ago at different life stages.

She can expect the very same level of enthusiasm about sex, pleasing her, enthusiasm about getting married, same level of wedding bash and honeymoon, and if he provided financially for his previous partner, then the same level of financial support, correct?

Because that's not what I hear from guys here. I hear: never again.

Or, that they don't have the same energy levels and have different priorities than when younger.


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> "all it is saying is “it makes me jealous and insecure that you did something with someone else that you won’t do with me.”"
> 
> Speaking personally, I'm more concerned about (a) why she won't bake me the cheesecake and (b) about the lack of communication regarding the topic.
> 
> The cheesecake in itself is irrelevant yet it's impact is relevant. It's not insecurities or whining to want to know the reason behind such decisions.
> 
> I'm surprised that the TAM mantra of open communication and transparency doesn't seem to apply here...


I’ve only encountered 2 types of men. The ones who don’t ask and don’t tell, and the ones who like to share. Of those who like to share, they vary from sharing a lot and in detail to sharing only the basics but still discussing the topics in general ways. 

I like to talk about sex so I’m good with either type of man. The ones who don’t ask or tell, I ask them straight out if I have any concerns they haven’t addressed. If they will not address my concerns I won’t continue seeing them. I won’t expect them to become sharers, but I will expect them to address specific concerns.

By and large though, men I’ve been with share back and forth with me some things about our pasts and the guys typically get kind of turned on by talking about it. I do too sometimes. Sometimes one or the other of us will get a little jealous and that’s ok, it gets resolved by someone tackling the other one and then having a tickle fight. A minor jealousy that lasts only a moment is the norm. An obsession with what one of us did with someone else would not be tolerable for me. 

So what I’m reflecting to you is that in the wild I don’t hear from men what you are talking about. This is another TAM skewed phenomenon. The men who feel this way are over represented on TAM.


----------



## john117

I can understand things changing over time, choices changing, etc. That's not the issue.

The issue is the archetypal "I don't feel like doing XYZ" with no explanation.

Case in point. I spent most of January to May preparing the McMansion for sale. I noticed that things that took 1 day like painting a basic bedroom a decade ago now took 2. Getting older I suppose... 

Thankfully the Mrs isn't home to manage the process or else I would have heard an earful about how long it takes. Yet the same person had no issues using her own changes as the reason to not do anything other than what she wanted to do. 

It works both ways. If you have a reason to say you don't feel like doing XYZ then learn to accept the other side saying the same. Offer reasons, listen to their reasons, and decide.


----------



## john117

"So what I’m reflecting to you is that in the wild I don’t hear from men what you are talking about. This is another TAM skewed phenomenon. The men who feel this way are over represented on TAM."

No disagreement. We're on different social settings. In addition, few people are deep thinkers to begin with. Which is a good thing because few people have the bandwidth or tolerance to deal with the complexity.

It's YOLO vs 5-Why.


----------



## sokillme

MZMEE said:


> In my past I did some things with other men that I don't do with my husband because i didn't like what I did with the other men or what worked "mechanically" with other men may not work in this union. It doesn't mean I look at my husband as less than because of it either. We do what works for us and as long as it brings us both pleasure...who cares what went down with past relationships.


See mechanically I get, though I would wonder why that is, I mean what are we talking about, getting older? He is too small, one of them has gotten too big? I also get that it hurts physically to do, though things can be done to help with that. I also get if your morals have changed (but I mean really changed) not as an excuse, but in the I have found God kind of way. But in that case hopefully you both are on the same page God wise so I am not sure why that is an issue. I even get if you don't want to have a 3 some because you are married and you weren't before. You see it as cheating on your marriage. So you hold your marriage to a higher standard in the case of opening it or something like that.

The one I don't get is if you had a bad experience with someone else. Say your ex was a **** and basically used you as his personal toy. I would have a problem if that was the reason to never try it with me. My wife and I have a very good and close emotional relationship. I make it a point to nurture her in that way. I have never broken a trust with her. I provide for her both financially and also physically. I know she feels safe with me. I have a right not to be judged by *******s in her history. Just because you had a bad experience because the company was bad doesn't mean you should at least try to see if you can have a better experience with better company. If you went on a trip to Paris with your ex, and the experience was bad, that shouldn't prevent you from going to Paris again. It also shouldn't be because you are to lazy to pack for the trip.

Here is the thing, I think the a lot of time the reason is in the past she was using sex to get favor with her boyfriend and now she sees that kind of sex as demeaning and doesn't want to do it anymore. She has matured (in her mind) and will never do that again for any man. Or maybe it's because she is married now and doesn't feel the need to do it as she has caught her mate. In some cases she may be damaged by her history and some may not even know it. In other cases I think she sees sex as a kind of currency, but this thinking is wrong in the sense that it doesn't lead to healthy sexual relationships. It's just sad in these cases because she doesn't even know what sexual intimacy could be. I feel bad for both of them. 

I think the other unspoken reason is, that the truth is, the wife just doesn't feel as emotionally close to her husband as she may have to her ex. In lots of cases the husband treats her poorly and she doesn't feel close because of that. In that case there may be a possibility to solve this issue but whining about it isn't going to do it. And the wife is certainly not going to say this is the reason. Though it would be good if she could and that could be accepted and worked on. I think it hurts the husband so much because the truth is deep down he knows it too. He know something is not right. He probably can't articulate it but he wishes he could fix it. This is sad because if they could communicate and change they may be able to both get some joy out of this. Instead they are at an impasse where both of them are angry and disappointed. 

In the worst cases she just isn't sexually attracted to him. If he has let himself he can fix that, but in some cases she just married him because of the stability he provided. She may not have even known this at the time. In those cases I feel very bad for the husband as NO man wants to have a marriage like this. Better to be alone. 

Lots of these men are trying to figure all this out. I don't think they have the tools to articulate it this way though. So they end up whining and being angry about it. Unfortunately men are very poorly served by our modern society and are really not given the tools to be emotionally intelligent, introspective and most of all emotionally communicative. 

But finally some wives are just lazy and don't care to give anything but the least amount sexually necessary for their husbands. Again I also go back to my food analogy. If you make me promise to only eat the food you cook I expect you to cook me some good food every once in a while. Not every day but it better not be leftovers every night. That's not fair, you have a responsibly to make me excited about keeping my vow. This analogy doesn't just have to be about sex and works with both sexes. For instance if your wife had decided to be a stay at home mom, because you both feel that is what you want to do, then you better make sure when you get home you talk to her and give her some adult communication. You give her a brake and also take the kids sometimes so she can get out of the house. You respect that there are sacrifices being made and you need to honor them by helping her. 

Again marriage 101 or frankly just not being a ****.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> This topic has confused me for years at TAM, because according to several men at TAM it is somehow normal to be this way (whiny and entitled). Yet no man I’ve ever met in person or dated or married ever said such entitled whiny things to me. None have ever implied that if I did it before I would be expected to do it now. None have ever implied that I must love someone more if I did it for them but not him. None have ever whined “but he got something I didn’t”.


If a man found out that you had done sexual things with previous men** that you declined to do with him and you provided no supporting reasons (acknowledging that this is extremely unlikely to happen), he'd be very unlikely to say whiny things to you. He'd be unlikely to expect you to do it now. He wouldn't whine, he'd most likely just stop dating you. 



Faithful Wife said:


> The common theme for these guys seems to be the feeling that their woman just isn’t into them like she was with some other guy and they are pissed off about that. So I think the men who are saying this have experienced that feeling - - and they are very vocal about their hurt feelings so when they respond on these threads they do it with long long answers and lots of “reasons”for why they feel this way. Thus it looks like this is common for men.


This is another case where having feelings is "whiny and unmanly". Of course men shouldn't have feelings. One can argue as to whether these feelings are justified or not but most women here are implying that we have no right to have feelings about the issue. 



Faithful Wife said:


> But then you have mature men who don’t feel insecure, whiny and entitled like Personal, who is saying none of this applies to him. His voice sounds more like the men I’ve known and been with. But he gets drowned out by the loud and insecure voices.


Based on what @Personal has said about his history on this site, it appears as if women have been lining up his whole live begging to have sex with him. Most men in that situation are unlikely to have insecurities. 



Faithful Wife said:


> I wish these guys would realize what they are really saying: I’m insecure and jealous. Pure and simple. If they could just accept that these are their own feelings instead of trying to make their feelings be their wife’s fault somehow, they would see why these arguments about upholding their whiny entitled feelings are pointless. Again, all they are really saying is I’m insecure and jealous. Put 1,000 words behind it and it doesn’t change, they are still saying the same thing.


I might have thought that many women who received a small diamond ring from their husband, would be bothered when they found out that his ex-wife's ring was 10 times the size (and when he has more disposable income now than he did in the past). Apparently no women would ever actually feel that way. 

So I'll just have to put this down as a gender difference. All I can recommend is that women don't go home and test their SO sexual security by telling him what sexual things they enjoyed with previous lovers but refuse to do with their husband.

** This note will apply in all future posts to refer to @Wolfman1968's list of past sexual situations that are excluded


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> This is another case where having feelings is "whiny and unmanly". Of course men shouldn't have feelings. One can argue as to whether these feelings are justified or not but most women here are implying that we have no right to have feelings about the issue.


It is whiny and unmanly to whine and act entitled.

It is perfectly fine and normal to have feelings of insecurity and jealousy.

The difference I’m proposing is that men are transparent about their feelings instead of acting whiny and entitled.

“Wife, it makes me jealous and insecure that you did something with another man that you won’t do with me. It makes me worry you were hot for him but not for me.”

From there, the wife can respond to the actual problem. He may not like her response but at least he told her the truth about his feelings instead of going off in weird directions about baking cakes for other people.

For myself if a man told me this, I would empathize with him and discuss it. If he was rational and simply describing his feelings to me I would be open and communicate as much as he needed or wanted.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Same argument has been made dozens of times now. The analogy doesn’t work and once again, all it is saying is “it makes me jealous and insecure that you did something with someone else that you won’t do with me.” Honestly is the best policy. Just say “I’m jealous and insecure” and then see if she will help you deal with it. But she may tell you that your insecurities are your own problem and that would be correct. On the other hand she may listen and try to understand and empathize. Again, this is if he is just honest and straightforward. If instead he spends an hour whining and making illogical analogies, she’s for sure going to tell him to go pound sand.


Have you ever put more effort into doing something for one person than you would for another?

I seems obvious that one possibility (the likeliest to me) would be that you care more about the first person's happiness than the second and that, therefore, you are willing to put more effort into pleasing the first.


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## john117

"From there, the wife can respond to the actual problem. He may not like her response but at least he told her the truth about his feelings instead of going off in weird directions about baking cakes for other people."

Figure of speech and all that. No actual cheesecakes were consumed during this discussion.


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> It goes both ways then, doesn't it? If so, a woman should expect and receive the very same effort men have given previous partners, even if decades ago at different life stages.
> 
> She can expect the very same level of enthusiasm about sex, pleasing her, enthusiasm about getting married, same level of wedding bash and honeymoon, and if he provided financially for his previous partner, then the same level of financial support, correct?
> 
> Because that's not what I hear from guys here. I hear: never again.
> 
> Or, that they don't have the same energy levels and have different priorities than when younger.


Yes, a woman should expect and receive the very same effort men have given previous partners, even if decades ago at different life stages.

The "different life stages" could be a valid explanation for not doing so in both cases.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Have you ever put more effort into doing something for one person than you would for another?
> 
> I seems obvious that one possibility (the likeliest to me) would be that you care more about the first person's happiness than the second and that, therefore, you are willing to put more effort into pleasing the first.


See I don’t have sex to make someone else happy. I have sex when myself and a partner want to enjoy each other and experience pleasure and bond with each other. As a result, we are both happy. But that was not the reason for having sex, just a bonus.

Sex is not something I give TO someone. It is something I enjoy WITH someone.

If you want to date or marry a woman who feels sex is something she gives a man and if you are a man who thinks sex is something women give you, then all of these weird arguments make sense.

To someone like me, they do not make sense.

There is no sex that feels like effort to me. I don’t know what that would even feel like. All sex is an expression I am making or experiencing. 

Unless you mean like physical effort, some acts require more of that. But no, I never reserved the more strenuous act for some but not others. I did them with all of my partners as I had the energy and strength available.


----------



## Livvie

We could take it a bit further.

If someone put up with bad behavior/ negative personality traits in a partner and still remained in love with them, stayed in a relationship with them for years, and worked to meet their needs for years, despite the negative attributes, can a new partner expect the very same scenario?

A high level of ongoing adoration and service in the face of rotten treatment.

Heck you did it for them, me too then.


----------



## Knips

The whole story is about securities. Both Man and Woman have insecurities. The one a bit more and the other a bit less. Some are better in hiding those securities. I have read stories from super secure alpha macho guys where their world collapses and become super insecure guys because they heard that the girlfriend had someone with a bigger penis and where the girl is surpised that her super confident lover starts crying like a baby just about that half of an inch difference in penis lenght. I mean the line can be very thin. A woman has her right to have insecurities and a man has his right to his insecurities without being called a phatetic whining loser.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> See I don’t have sex to make someone else happy. I have sex when myself and a partner want to enjoy each other and experience pleasure and bond with each other. As a result, we are both happy. But that was not the reason for having sex, just a bonus.
> 
> Sex is not something I give TO someone. It is something I enjoy WITH someone.
> 
> If you want to date or marry a woman who feels sex is something she gives a man and if you are a man who thinks sex is something women give you, then all of these weird arguments make sense.
> 
> To someone like me, they do not make sense.
> 
> There is no sex that feels like effort to me. I don’t know what that would even feel like. All sex is an expression I am making or experiencing.
> 
> Unless you mean like physical effort, some acts require more of that. But no, I never reserved the more strenuous act for some but not others. I did them with all of my partners as I had the energy and strength available.


I wish we could bottle and sell this.

This is very healthy sexuality.


----------



## john117

ConanHub said:


> I wish we could bottle and sell this.
> 
> This is very healthy sexuality.


Which is in rather short supply, in tam and in real life...


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> See I don’t have sex to make someone else happy. I have sex when myself and a partner want to enjoy each other and experience pleasure and bond with each other. As a result, we are both happy. But that was not the reason for having sex, just a bonus.
> 
> Sex is not something I give TO someone. It is something I enjoy WITH someone.
> 
> If you want to date or marry a woman who feels sex is something she gives a man and if you are a man who thinks sex is something women give you, then all of these weird arguments make sense.
> 
> To someone like me, they do not make sense.
> 
> There is no sex that feels like effort to me. I don’t know what that would even feel like. All sex is an expression I am making or experiencing.
> 
> Unless you mean like physical effort, some acts require more of that. But no, I never reserved the more strenuous act for some but not others. I did them with all of my partners as I had the energy and strength available.


That's the answer: Sex is different.

Women think sex is different, so they don't understand what men are going on about. 

Men think it's the same and can't figure out why women are refusing to comprehend.

Historically, 95% of women and 5% of men felt that sex was something women "gave' and men "received". It's changed, but not that much.

I do think that having the good sex involves effort, even if it's only convincing yourself that you'll really enjoy yourself once you get started and going to the effort of saying "yes" and getting off the couch.

Apparently you're a "maximum effort every time" sort of person, most aren't.


----------



## Tiggy!

Faithful Wife said:


> See I don’t have sex to make someone else happy. I have sex when myself and a partner want to enjoy each other and experience pleasure and bond with each other. As a result, we are both happy. But that was not the reason for having sex, just a bonus.
> 
> *Sex is not something I give TO someone. It is something I enjoy WITH someone.*
> 
> If you want to date or marry a woman who feels sex is something she gives a man and if you are a man who thinks sex is something women give you, then all of these weird arguments make sense.
> 
> To someone like me, they do not make sense.
> *
> There is no sex that feels like effort to me. I don’t know what that would even feel like. All sex is an expression I am making or experiencing. *
> 
> Unless you mean like physical effort, some acts require more of that. But no, I never reserved the more strenuous act for some but not others. I did them with all of my partners as I had the energy and strength available.



:iagree:

Being obligated to do something (once at least) you did years ago to make a current partner feel as "special" is a weird concept to me, because I've never done a sex act to make someone feel special or because they were special to me.

I think that's why this threads always grated on me a little, some of the men are projecting how they interpret women's sexual actions onto women.

To be honest I would feel resentful if someone tried to turn the thing I enjoy the most in the world into a chore.


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> Based on what @Personal has said about his history on this site, it appears as if women have been lining up his whole live begging to have sex with him. Most men in that situation are unlikely to have insecurities.


I would say that most of his sexual experiences were directly related to his attitude to begin with and his lack of insecurities. I don't believe for a second that he is not insecure because women wanted to bed him but that he was secure all along and regardless of female attention.

I have similar experience with women. I found that lack of insecurities and true confidence set many women at ease and helped ignite their fires.

I will say that I have had women who have done things for me that they didn't for others because of their more intense feelings for me.

It can be a real issue and if that happens to be the case in a marriage, it is a sad reflection of the marriage and the woman in that type of scenario needs to work on her attachment to her husband with his help of course.

No one wants to be second place in the heart of their spouse, nor should they put up with it.


----------



## personofinterest

"This is another case where having feelings is "whiny and unmanly". Of course men shouldn't have feelings. One can argue as to whether these feelings are justified or not but most women here are implying that we have no right to have feelings about the issue. "

You have the right to feel any feeling you want.

What you DON'T have the right to do is pressure or demand that your wife check off and do with you everything she has ever done with anyone else like she's some semi-sentient blow-up doll.

No....you don't


----------



## ConanHub

personofinterest said:


> "This is another case where having feelings is "whiny and unmanly". Of course men shouldn't have feelings. One can argue as to whether these feelings are justified or not but most women here are implying that we have no right to have feelings about the issue. "
> 
> You have the right to feel any feeling you want.
> 
> What you DON'T have the right to do is pressure or demand that your wife check off and do with you everything she has ever done with anyone else like she's some semi-sentient blow-up doll.
> 
> No....you don't


While I can empathize with the men in this position and the women opposite of them, I actually expect more from my partners and blaze new trails.

I usually push the envelope sexually and have led my partners into sexual areas they never went before.

I will say that if you are more concerned with the future and the trails you have yet to explore with your partner, the past becomes an irrelevant, dull blur that pales in comparison.


----------



## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> See I don’t have sex to make someone else happy. I have sex when myself and a partner want to enjoy each other and experience pleasure and bond with each other. As a result, we are both happy. But that was not the reason for having sex, just a bonus.
> 
> Sex is not something I give TO someone. It is something I enjoy WITH someone.
> 
> If you want to date or marry a woman who feels sex is something she gives a man and if you are a man who thinks sex is something women give you, then all of these weird arguments make sense.
> 
> To someone like me, they do not make sense.
> 
> There is no sex that feels like effort to me. I don’t know what that would even feel like. All sex is an expression I am making or experiencing.
> 
> Unless you mean like physical effort, some acts require more of that. But no, I never reserved the more strenuous act for some but not others. I did them with all of my partners as I had the energy and strength available.


This is actually how I see it as well. It's a way of connecting and being intimate. I am interested on what makes my wife tick. I want to be close to her, I want to KNOW her. Emotionally and physically. I want to enjoy that together, I want to celebrate that, whether it's long talks, or joking around or having passionate sex. I would hope she feels the same way and wants to be closer to me then any other person who has ever been in her life. Sex is a healthy part of that. So if she were to say I want to try this with you I would at least give it a thought and as long as it didn't go against my morals I would probably at least try. I would hope she would do the same. Of course you have to have attraction first. 

I think we are kind of staying the same thing. I think you say the whole giving of sex and sex as currency is the problem here. But I think that is predominant in our society. Sex is a how some people see their worth.


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> I would say that most of his sexual experiences were directly related to his attitude to begin with and his lack of insecurities. I don't believe for a second that he is not insecure because women wanted to bed him but that he was secure all along and regardless of female attention.
> 
> I have similar experience with women. I found that lack of insecurities and true confidence set many women at ease and helped ignite their fires.
> 
> I will say that I have had women who have done things for me that they didn't for others because of their more intense feelings for me.
> 
> It can be a real issue and if that happens to be the case in a marriage, it is a sad reflection of the marriage and the woman in that type of scenario needs to work on her attachment to her husband with his help of course.
> 
> No one wants to be second place in the heart of their spouse, nor should they put up with it.


This is why you don't ask great baseball players how to hit home runs. They'll tell you that it's about the mental approach, the fact that they always get out of the bed on the left side on game day, because they do this or that. But really, they just have the genetic ability to hit baseballs really hard (and practice a lot, although you or I could practice forever and never hit major league pitching).


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> You have the right to feel any feeling you want.
> 
> What you DON'T have the right to do is pressure or demand that your wife check off and do with you everything she has ever done with anyone else like she's some semi-sentient blow-up doll.
> 
> No....you don't


If this ever happened to me (it hasn't), I would never pressure or demand that my wife do it for me. In fact, if she offered, I'd probably turn her down. This would be a huge problem and would damage my relationship a great deal, which would suck since we have a great marriage. 

The only thing she could do to improve the situation (assuming she'd want to and, yes, she'd want to) would be to offer up a reasonable explanation.

See, the problem isn't that she won't do it with me, it's the fact that she* didn't* do it with me, when she knew I desired it. 

The damage would already have been done, I wouldn't really see a way forward.


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> This is why you don't ask great baseball players how to hit home runs. They'll tell you that it's about the mental approach, the fact that they always get out of the bed on the left side on game day, because they do this or that. But really, they just have the genetic ability to hit baseballs really hard (and practice a lot, although you or I could practice forever and never hit major league pitching).


Hmmm. I would disagree to an extent about being a good sexual partner.

Sex is a team sport. I absolutely understand innate sexual talent. It does exist. I have had partners with incredible innate talent. Mrs. Conan wasn't even close to the best partner I had when we first got together, however, with much practice she has eclipsed everyone. Now if I had fallen in love with one of the extremely talented ladies of my past, there is little doubt that our sexual heights would have, in all likelihood, surpassed those I have achieved with Mrs. Conan.


I don't regret marrying her for an instant however and she gives me her all.

She has also never denied me anything sexually she has done in the past. On the contrary, she has gone distances with me she never thought of before.

Innate talent really isn't everything, especially in the sexual arena. Most people have what it takes to hit homeruns in the bedroom with work.


----------



## Buddy400

Tiggy! said:


> Being obligated to do something (once at least) you did years ago to make a current partner feel as "special" is a weird concept to me, because I've never done a sex act to make someone feel special or because they were special to me.


Let's say that you've never let a man cum in your mouth. You've just had a "ick" feeling about it and wouldn't do it (perfectly fine, of course).

You hear that guys seem to really like it and you begin to think it might be worth giving a try once (or, you don't give a damn what guys like but begin to think you might give it a try anyway). 

You are in one of two situations:

1) The love of your life, the perfect man who makes you so happy and does so much to demonstrate his love for you mentions that, although he respects your desire not to do it, has always had a thing about this and would love it if it ever happened.

or

2) You're with some random guy you picked up in a bar. He says he wants to cum in your mouth.

In which situation are you most likely to give it a try?


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> Innate talent really isn't everything, especially in the sexual arena. Most people have what it takes to hit homeruns in the bedroom with work.


This is as much (or more) about getting into the bedroom as it is about what happens once you're there.


----------



## Tiggy!

Buddy400 said:


> Let's say that you've never let a man cum in your mouth. You've just had a "ick" feeling about it and wouldn't do it (perfectly fine, of course).
> 
> You hear that guys seem to really like it and you begin to think it might be worth giving a try once (or, you don't give a damn what guys like but begin to think you might give it a try anyway).
> 
> You are in one of two situations:
> 
> 1) The love of your life, the perfect man who makes you so happy and does so much to demonstrate his love for you mentions that, although he respects your desire not to do it, has always had a thing about this and would love it if it ever happened.
> 
> or
> 
> 2) You're with some random guy you picked up in a bar. He says he wants to cum in your mouth.
> 
> In which situation are you most likely to give it a try?


Can we please choose something else that really is my aversion lol


Honestly if gun to my head it would probably be option 2 because I wouldn't have to see him again.

That's my own personal issue though and really is no reflection on my husband or the bar guy.


----------



## personofinterest

"If this ever happened to me (it hasn't), I would never pressure or demand that my wife do it for me. In fact, if she offered, I'd probably turn her down. This would be a huge problem and would damage my relationship a great deal, which would suck since we have a great marriage. 
The only thing she could do to improve the situation (assuming she'd want to and, yes, she'd want to) would be to offer up a reasonable explanation.
See, the problem isn't that she won't do it with me, it's the fact that she didn't do it with me, when she knew I desired it. 
The damage would already have been done, I wouldn't really see a way forward."

So it's about holding a grudge. Like when a child wants a snack RIGHT NOW, but you're in the middle of something. And when you do fix it for them, they fold their arms, stick out a lip and say, "I'm not hungry anymore!"


----------



## Fozzy

Buddy400 said:


> This is as much (or more) about getting into the bedroom as it is about what happens once you're there.


True. As much as we all like to believe everyone is equal, Nature has other ideas. There's just a huge difference in peoples baseline abilities in terms of the physical, mental and social. And Conan is right that perseverance can make up for a lot of that, but perseverance PLUS natural ability is what puts people at the edge of the curve. I don't care how early I started shooting baskets or how much coaching I had, I'd never have become a LeBron James.

And here's the uglier side of that coin. A person can shoot hoops by themself and get better at it. The social and sexual aspects of people can't be developed without (at least) two willing participants. Starting without natural charisma can throw a big obstacle in front of that path.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Come on you guys, as awesome as men like Personal and Conan are, they aren’t as rare as a freaking pro athlete ranking in top 10 in the world in his sport. That’s just ridiculous. 

Women like me partner with men like Conan and Personal. None of us are as special as you are making it sound. What we actually are is sexy and confident.

Regardless of what any of you want to believe, it is on you to find your confidence. This goes for anyone. If you are insecure, I’m sorry but that’s your deal. Try to blame it on someone else and you’ll see how fast it gets tossed back in your face by them. No one is going to take the blame for your mind and how it works. Only you get the blame for that.

Also, I’ve known many people who were confident who I didn’t really think were all that. Yet should that person not feel confident just because I’m not that into them? A truly confident person will not care what I think. And they shouldn’t care what I think! They should feel free to consider themselves the most awesome of all awesomeness. 

It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Come on you guys, as awesome as men like Personal and Conan are, they aren’t as rare as a freaking pro athlete ranking in top 10 in the world in his sport. That’s just ridiculous.
> 
> Women like me partner with men like Conan and Personal. None of us are as special as you are making it sound. What we actually are is sexy and confident.
> 
> Regardless of what any of you want to believe, it is on you to find your confidence. This goes for anyone. If you are insecure, I’m sorry but that’s your deal. Try to blame it on someone else and you’ll see how fast it gets tossed back in your face by them. No one is going to take the blame for your mind and how it works. Only you get the blame for that.
> 
> Also, I’ve known many people who were confident who I didn’t really think were all that. Yet should that person not feel confident just because I’m not that into them? A truly confident person will not care what I think. And they shouldn’t care what I think! They should feel free to consider themselves the most awesome of all awesomeness.
> 
> It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.


Most of your posts are good, but every once in a while you come through with one which is especially wise. This is one such post. IMO, We could just put a nice big bold after that one to punctuate and complete the thread.


----------



## happiness27

oldtruck said:


> 1. Most men are open to trying new things with a partner. So when a
> man marries he will want to do new things with his wife. So when
> he marries a woman and she says no, I have not done those things
> and I do not like the thought of doing them.
> 
> 2. Or a wife says I did those things before but do not want to do them
> because I do not like them.
> 
> 3. Or the wife adds to not wanting to revisit those things but understands
> that her husband cannot get to experience things at least once unless
> she does them once for him.
> 
> I can see most men accepting 1.
> 
> I can see most men seeing 2. as an ego blow.
> 
> I can see most men seeing 3. as a wife willing to understand his needs
> and him to be willing to not have everything that she has already done
> be on his bucket list. Compromise.
> 
> Compromising is always better than saying no way.


Compromise? 

NO

And no means no. 

Any man who pouts, gets angry, withdraws or argues with his wife about a sexual act she does not want to do is immature and disrespectful - because:

No means no.


----------



## MAJDEATH

happiness27 said:


> Compromise?
> 
> NO
> 
> And no means no.
> 
> Any man who pouts, gets angry, withdraws or argues with his wife about a sexual act she does not want to do is immature and disrespectful - because:
> 
> No means no.


In the sales world no is just a starting point. Perhaps if he negotiates for a better position.


----------



## happiness27

Majdeath - on the off chance you aren't joking: #metoo

No means no.

Even in the swingers world where a whole lotta things go on, no means no. And pushy people are shunned. Again, that's in a world of people where sex is paramount in many different forms.

The very few rules that people agree on: no means no. Doesn't matter if the no is coming from a man or woman. Pushy people or people who don't honor a no get shunned, kicked out of clubs and are seen as threats.

Its not seen as cute or "negotiable"

So back up to marriage relationship and if one partner doesn't want to do something sexually for any reason, then its a no.


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Come on you guys, as awesome as men like Personal and Conan are, they aren’t as rare as a freaking pro athlete ranking in top 10 in the world in his sport. That’s just ridiculous.
> 
> Women like me partner with men like Conan and Personal. None of us are as special as you are making it sound. What we actually are is sexy and confident.
> 
> Regardless of what any of you want to believe, it is on you to find your confidence. This goes for anyone. If you are insecure, I’m sorry but that’s your deal. Try to blame it on someone else and you’ll see how fast it gets tossed back in your face by them. No one is going to take the blame for your mind and how it works. Only you get the blame for that.
> 
> Also, I’ve known many people who were confident who I didn’t really think were all that. Yet should that person not feel confident just because I’m not that into them? A truly confident person will not care what I think. And they shouldn’t care what I think! They should feel free to consider themselves the most awesome of all awesomeness.
> 
> It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.


Quoting because it's right on.


----------



## john117

Confidence manifests itself in different ways. Not just the local watering hole / hookup scene / etc but in many other ways. 

The biggest act of confidence I recall wasn't a pilot landing a plane on the interstate. It was a junior engineer that worked with me a decade ago. During a demo to some bigwig CEO types during the annual consumer electronics show in Las Vegas, our product choked. We knew the bug and had a fix downloaded in a USB drive which the guy had in his pocket. During reboot after the crash, he smoothly plugged the USB drive to the product which began to update, then rebooted once again and ran fine. His confidence was that he was able to do so smoothly, slight of hand almost, while promoting the product's field upgradeability... Nobody noticed.

That takes titanium balls. Not some random guy {N} not worrying he's not getting anal like guy {N-1} did.

The junior engineer is now senior director - USA for a major Indian electronics company... Drives a Porsche and he's single after divorcing his rather spirited wife....


----------



## oldtruck

To attack an imaginary person that did not get to date much and very little sex
claiming that he must have issues side steps the example used to make a point.

A man finally got a wife and wants to explore the world of sex. He has a huge
bucket list. She will only now do a limited menu of love making. She has done
her bucket list forwards and backwards. She tells him no I am not going to help
you explore and learn about sex I have been there, seen it, did it a lot, and even
got T shirt.

That is not understanding behavior from a wife.

Yes people get older and that effects performance. Difference between not being
as able as when younger does not mean that ways to find out to still try to do
some things that are on the wild side cannot be tried.

And some things cannot be duplicated because of the differences between current
husband and the previous men. Height, weight, strength, stamina, size will not allow
things to be duplicated. Though duplication is not the goal.

The goal is to attempt the same things but not expect the same results.


Take away you did this with him you should do it with me and knowledge of what
your spouse did with past lovers before you and them of you. You have two people,
married, exploring and enjoying sex. Everyone brings to the table things that they
want to do, will do to make their spouse happy, no way will they do that.

The way the lovemaking menu gets openly negotiated without knowledge of past
history once though past history is learnt then the negotiations need to factor that
knowledge in.

Yes I did anal once and found it painful and did not like it. I can't do that for you.
Most men would accept that.

However when the wife says I will never do anal because I never liked it when I did 
it with all of my previous BF's, all 10 of them.

Now a husband that said well I got to do anal several times with several women before
you so I can live without anal.

But what about the husband that never got anal, Wants to do it once just because he
wants to first hand experience all the noise is about anal, and his wife did it for all of her
previous 10 BF's.

This is not a black and white issue.


----------



## I shouldnthave

Faithful Wife said:


> Come on you guys, as awesome as men like Personal and Conan are, they aren’t as rare as a freaking pro athlete ranking in top 10 in the world in his sport. That’s just ridiculous.
> 
> Women like me partner with men like Conan and Personal. None of us are as special as you are making it sound. What we actually are is sexy and confident.
> 
> Regardless of what any of you want to believe, it is on you to find your confidence. This goes for anyone. If you are insecure, I’m sorry but that’s your deal. Try to blame it on someone else and you’ll see how fast it gets tossed back in your face by them. No one is going to take the blame for your mind and how it works. Only you get the blame for that.
> 
> Also, I’ve known many people who were confident who I didn’t really think were all that. Yet should that person not feel confident just because I’m not that into them? A truly confident person will not care what I think. And they shouldn’t care what I think! They should feel free to consider themselves the most awesome of all awesomeness.
> 
> It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Most of your posts are good, but every once in a while you come through with one which is especially wise. This is one such post. IMO, We could just put a nice big bold after that one to punctuate and complete the thread.


Yep, can't like this post enough. No one else can make you confident - its all you, it comes from within, period.

If someone is insecure, all the reassurance in the world won't make them bold and confident, that is something that has to spring internally.

And confidence is SEXY as hell. Male or female. You just have to find your own power.


----------



## azimuth

If the hypothetical 40yo virgin man wants to explore sex he should. Why would he marry someone with the goal of making her his sex guinea pig? You're in the relationship because you love the person. You share sex together and that sex is your special sharing. If the goal of the 40yo virgin guy is to live out his sexual bucket list he should find people he's compatible with, explore, casual sex, FWB, LTR, etc. I don't think someone who's in that mindset would pick a woman who's a prude or not into exploring. The point I'm trying to make is that he's in charge of his own sexuality and feeling fulfilled.


----------



## I shouldnthave

Thanks


Buddy400 said:


> That's the answer: Sex is different.
> 
> Women think sex is different, so they don't understand what men are going on about.
> 
> Men think it's the same and can't figure out why women are refusing to comprehend.
> 
> Historically, 95% of women and 5% of men felt that sex was something women "gave' and men "received". It's changed, but not that much.


This type of thinking is a recipe for a piss poor sex life. 

And historically? What history are we talking about? The eras of sexual oppression where it was thought women didn't orgasm, or the era of Kama sutra or of Greek orgies?

If you could understand that a confident, sexual woman desires and enjoys sex just as much as men do, you wouldn't be painting yourself into these corners which guarantee an inequitable sex life.

I have to say, this point of view is unsexy, and I would not be attracted to someone with this type of belief. This is the type of stuff that turns nyphos frigid.


----------



## Tiggy!

azimuth said:


> If the hypothetical 40yo virgin man wants to explore sex he should. Why would he marry someone with the goal of making her his sex guinea pig? You're in the relationship because you love the person. You share sex together and that sex is your special sharing. If the goal of the 40yo virgin guy is to live out his sexual bucket list he should find people he's compatible with, explore, casual sex, FWB, LTR, etc. I don't think someone who's in that mindset would pick a woman who's a prude or not into exploring. The point I'm trying to make is that he's in charge of his own sexuality and feeling fulfilled.



:iagree:
This hypothetical couple is incompatible regardless of the wife's sexual past.


----------



## ConanHub

happiness27 said:


> Compromise?
> 
> NO
> 
> And no means no.
> 
> Any man who pouts, gets angry, withdraws or argues with his wife about a sexual act she does not want to do is immature and disrespectful - because:
> 
> No means no.


The marriage is incredibly toxic on both sides, probably, if it has gotten to this point anyway.

A partner being understandably disappointed because they won't attempt a certain type of sex, especially an act they didn't mind doing with someone else, isn't even in the same universe as sexual assault.


----------



## Fozzy

ConanHub said:


> Hmmm. I would disagree to an extent about being a good sexual partner.
> 
> Sex is a team sport. I absolutely understand innate sexual talent. It does exist. I have had partners with incredible innate talent. Mrs. Conan wasn't even close to the best partner I had when we first got together, however, with much practice she has eclipsed everyone. Now if I had fallen in love with one of the extremely talented ladies of my past, there is little doubt that our sexual heights would have, in all likelihood, surpassed those I have achieved with Mrs. Conan.
> 
> 
> I don't regret marrying her for an instant however and she gives me her all.
> 
> She has also never denied me anything sexually she has done in the past. On the contrary, she has gone distances with me she never thought of before.
> 
> Innate talent really isn't everything, especially in the sexual arena. Most people have what it takes to hit homeruns in the bedroom with work.





Buddy400 said:


> This is as much (or more) about getting into the bedroom as it is about what happens once you're there.





Fozzy said:


> True. As much as we all like to believe everyone is equal, Nature has other ideas. There's just a huge difference in peoples baseline abilities in terms of the physical, mental and social. And Conan is right that perseverance can make up for a lot of that, but perseverance PLUS natural ability is what puts people at the edge of the curve. I don't care how early I started shooting baskets or how much coaching I had, I'd never have become a LeBron James.
> 
> And here's the uglier side of that coin. A person can shoot hoops by themself and get better at it. The social and sexual aspects of people can't be developed without (at least) two willing participants. Starting without natural charisma can throw a big obstacle in front of that path.






Faithful Wife said:


> Come on you guys, as awesome as men like Personal and Conan are, they aren’t as rare as a freaking pro athlete ranking in top 10 in the world in his sport. That’s just ridiculous.
> 
> Women like me partner with men like Conan and Personal. None of us are as special as you are making it sound. What we actually are is sexy and confident.
> 
> Regardless of what any of you want to believe, it is on you to find your confidence. This goes for anyone. If you are insecure, I’m sorry but that’s your deal. Try to blame it on someone else and you’ll see how fast it gets tossed back in your face by them. No one is going to take the blame for your mind and how it works. Only you get the blame for that.
> 
> Also, I’ve known many people who were confident who I didn’t really think were all that. Yet should that person not feel confident just because I’m not that into them? A truly confident person will not care what I think. And they shouldn’t care what I think! They should feel free to consider themselves the most awesome of all awesomeness.
> 
> It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.



Mmkay. I don't remember comparing Conan and Personal to anyone, anywhere. I made the point (agreeing with Conan) that there are two things at play, natural aptitude and perseverance. LeBron was brought up as an illustration that there's a limit to everyone's ability at some point. 

I fully understand that you are not the Ronda Rousey of sex. Nor are Conan and Personal the Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton of love. I get it.

I do stand by my opinion that people have different levels of capability for different things. We can dissect it down to how much is nature and how much is nurture (self improvement), but it doesn't change anything. The reality is that there are people out there that for whatever reason find it more difficult to find partners. We can blame that on their insecurities until the cows come home, and in many cases that's probably true. But there are also a lot of people with more significant hurdles than just confidence issues, like behavioral disorders, health problems, being the wrong "kind" of person in the wrong town...the list goes on.

Can those people still partner and find love? Yes of course. They're going to have to work harder for it though.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> Mmkay. I don't remember comparing Conan and Personal to anyone, anywhere. I made the point (agreeing with Conan) that there are two things at play, natural aptitude and perseverance. LeBron was brought up as an illustration that there's a limit to everyone's ability at some point.
> 
> I fully understand that you are not the Ronda Rousey of sex. Nor are Conan and Personal the Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton of love. I get it.
> 
> I do stand by my opinion that people have different levels of capability for different things. We can dissect it down to how much is nature and how much is nurture (self improvement), but it doesn't change anything. The reality is that there are people out there that for whatever reason find it more difficult to find partners. We can blame that on their insecurities until the cows come home, and in many cases that's probably true. But there are also a lot of people with more significant hurdles than just confidence issues, like behavioral disorders, health problems, being the wrong "kind" of person in the wrong town...the list goes on.
> 
> Can those people still partner and find love? Yes of course. They're going to have to work harder for it though.


Fozzy, I know you aren’t the one who made a direct comparison between Personal and pro athletes. Sorry to not be clear.

In response to the above, I know lots of people from the wrong side of town, who have behavioral disorders, and severe health problems who also get laid like tile. It isn’t about those things. There can be a guy in a wheelchair who doesn’t even have all his teeth who has sexual confidence and who attracts sexy women to him. 

For sure, people who are more introverted will have a harder time finding partners unless they happen upon the types of partners who will do the asking out and pursuing, etc. 

On that note however, I’ve also known male introverts who did have exactly that. Women who came to them because they were not willing to go out to get the woman. 

Whatever someone’s reasons are for it being harder for them to attract mates than they would like, there is likely something they can do to improve their situation. In some cases, that would mean getting a divorce.


----------



## Bluesclues

True story. I grew up watching the Love Boat and have always wanted to go on a cruise. But my husband went on a cruise with his ex wife and hated it. It wasn’t the company - they still loved and even liked each other then- it wasn’t the destination or the food - he didn’t like cruising. Made him feel trapped and anxious. 

So when we talk about vacations and I bring up a cruise it is a hard stop NO. But so many other people say how great cruises are and how much I am missing out by not going on one. I have fantasized about this cruise since the 70’s - is it fair for me to not get to experience it because he already did with someone else and hated it? Shouldn’t he put his discomfort aside and suck it up for me?

Nope. 

He isn’t shutting off vacations for me. He isn’t shutting off all ports of call. He is shutting off one means of travel that he has found caused him great discomfort. There are 1,000+ things we could do together to have fun and bring joy to our lives together. Why on earth would I insist on the one that causes him angst on any level? That isn’t healthy and it isn’t loving.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Question for guys who feel if she did it for him, she should do it for me...

Did you make it clear to your wife before you married her that you would insist on having everything anyone else ever had with her, or else you would feel betrayed and resentful? And further did you make sure she knows that no man before you better have had a bigger **** or you will use that information to torture yourself forever, while silently blaming her? 

If she entered the relationship actually knowing and understanding these rules and agreeing to them, then great. Sure. Make her make good on her promise.

But if you did not say those things and now you’re putting all this on her shoulders, sorry but you must see how messed up that is, right?

- - - - - - - 

Here’s my experience. I’ve had 5 lovers in my life who were phenomenal. Of them, 1 was the best overall, and the other 4 were each better at different things than the others. When I say better at things, I mean very personal things, not sexual acts per se. Like one was better at being sensual, and another was better at being passionate, and another was better at being fun and physical. 

When I was with any one of them, I was entirely focused on them and not thinking about how awesome the others were. Whatever their thing they were best at with me, I just dove completely into it with them and we rode the wave together. There is no comparing, no wishing I were with someone else, no wishing he or she had this other trait. It was just being absorbed in the moment and focused on what was awesome.

The rest of the lovers I’ve had (not that many) were somewhere between horrible and meh. When I was with them, I was unfulfilled, yet I still didn’t lay there wishing they were one of the top 5. I just kept trying to make the sex better somehow, and when it ultimately didn’t get better we broke up. I didn’t make direct comparisons with better lovers but because I had had better lovers I knew what it should feel like. If it seemed like it could improve I always tried. Once I knew there was no chance, it was always over shortly after. 

I’m just giving you a woman’s perspective. I don’t know if other women are always fantasizing about their past lovers who were better or who they were hotter for the way men seem to think they are. Maybe they do.

I doubt it though.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Knips said:


> The whole story is about securities. Both Man and Woman have insecurities. The one a bit more and the other a bit less. Some are better in hiding those securities. I have read stories from super secure alpha macho guys where their world collapses and become super insecure guys because they heard that the girlfriend had someone with a bigger penis and where the girl is surpised that her super confident lover starts crying like a baby just about that half of an inch difference in penis lenght. I mean the line can be very thin. A woman has her right to have insecurities and a man has his right to his insecurities without being called a phatetic whining loser.


No “super alpha macho” man who is truly secure would collapse at the thought that his woman had a bigger penis than his. If he collapsed, it was because he was on unsafe scaffolding he built out of self delusion as he was trying to appear macho.


----------



## Buddy400

Tiggy! said:


> Can we please choose something else that really is my aversion lol


That's one of the problems with trying to explain this to women, there's no one thing that will be an analogy to most women.



Tiggy! said:


> That's my own personal issue though and really is no reflection on my husband or the bar guy.


I'd originally included the following in the post and then deleted it as being too snarky.

"Yes, we know most women would pick #2 and that's just another thing that drives men crazy"



Tiggy! said:


> That's my own personal issue though and really is no reflection on my husband or the bar guy.


This is very common, women doing sexual things with men who they don't care for but not with those they do.

I've heard a lot about women who will sleep with guys on the first date as long as they don't consider them "relationship material".

Sort of removes some of the incentive for us guys to be "relationship material".


----------



## oldtruck

azimuth said:


> If the hypothetical 40yo virgin man wants to explore sex he should. Why would he marry someone with the goal of making her his sex guinea pig? You're in the relationship because you love the person. You share sex together and that sex is your special sharing. If the goal of the 40yo virgin guy is to live out his sexual bucket list he should find people he's compatible with, explore, casual sex, FWB, LTR, etc. I don't think someone who's in that mindset would pick a woman who's a prude or not into exploring. The point I'm trying to make is that he's in charge of his own sexuality and feeling fulfilled.


Who said he should or would marry a prude?

Statement is based on a man wanting to do what most men want with a woman.
Sharing is about exploring.
Have FWB is not about wanting a wife and exploring sex together.
Being married is not about getting all the NSA sex that one can get.
Exploring does not mean he has to get everything on his list or do
everything on his wife's list.
But for a wife to just say no to almost everything because she was
attractive enough to get to do all of her exploring that she wanted
when she was younger is not very generous on her part.


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> "
> 
> So it's about holding a grudge. Like when a child wants a snack RIGHT NOW, but you're in the middle of something. And when you do fix it for them, they fold their arms, stick out a lip and say, "I'm not hungry anymore!"


No. It's about being deeply disappointed and hurt. It's about questioning the nature of my wife's attraction to me.


----------



## ConanHub

Fozzy said:


> Mmkay. I don't remember comparing Conan and Personal to anyone, anywhere. I made the point (agreeing with Conan) that there are two things at play, natural aptitude and perseverance. LeBron was brought up as an illustration that there's a limit to everyone's ability at some point.
> 
> I fully understand that you are not the Ronda Rousey of sex. Nor are Conan and Personal the Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton of love. I get it.
> 
> I do stand by my opinion that people have different levels of capability for different things. We can dissect it down to how much is nature and how much is nurture (self improvement), but it doesn't change anything. The reality is that there are people out there that for whatever reason find it more difficult to find partners. We can blame that on their insecurities until the cows come home, and in many cases that's probably true. But there are also a lot of people with more significant hurdles than just confidence issues, like behavioral disorders, health problems, being the wrong "kind" of person in the wrong town...the list goes on.
> 
> Can those people still partner and find love? Yes of course. They're going to have to work harder for it though.


Fozzy, all I can really go by is real life experiences. FW and Personal have had similar experiences and seen similar situations I have apparently.

Personal is a short dude and has consistently gotten laid. I've only heard FW is quite attractive but I can tell from her personality and her shared knowledge that she has probably landed her chosen man in spite of very real sexual competition and it was more than likely her personality, sexuality and confidence that beat out her competitors, might have been her cute ass as well...

Anyway, I'm exactly average height, probably decent in the looks department but no Adonis and I regularly crushed everyone in the room when it came to sexual competitiveness.

I also started out with a stutter, I was very skinny, had terrible acne, was extremely socially awkward and was the poorest of the poor.

I did some observation and work.

I became THE guy who took THE girl home or, as often as not, she took me home.

There were very handsome men who were well over six feet tall with around 5% body fat who were my "beta orbiters" hanging around, hoping to pick up whatever I left at the club.

These men were not insecure and definitely not physically ungifted but something else tipped the scales in my favor.

Personal is an even better example as he is considered short.

I can't speak for FW or her feminine perspective but she obviously has seen or experienced confident, sexual men who had something more than innate talent and and a perfect physique.

I'm not claiming those guys didn't get lots of female attention but I easily claimed territory they never did.

Sexuality, confidence and succes with the opposite sex is mostly mental in my experience and that of Personal's life, I believe.

FW is probably a similar animal sexually and from the feminine side. I have definitely seen the same or similar situations she has described from a woman's POV anyway.


----------



## john117

The expectation is that, assuming I bring my A game to the marriage, she does too. This ain't 50 Shades.

Too often, a partner simply uses the "I don't feel like it" as a convenient excuse... Pointing this out is irregardless of the context of previous partners. 

I feel we're barking at the wrong tree here. The issue is more "you did it before tying the knot, but not after" far more than it is regarding another partner.


----------



## oldtruck

Bluesclues said:


> True story. I grew up watching the Love Boat and have always wanted to go on a cruise. But my husband went on a cruise with his ex wife and hated it. It wasn’t the company - they still loved and even liked each other then- it wasn’t the destination or the food - he didn’t like cruising. Made him feel trapped and anxious.
> 
> So when we talk about vacations and I bring up a cruise it is a hard stop NO. But so many other people say how great cruises are and how much I am missing out by not going on one. I have fantasized about this cruise since the 70’s - is it fair for me to not get to experience it because he already did with someone else and hated it? Shouldn’t he put his discomfort aside and suck it up for me?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> He isn’t shutting off vacations for me. He isn’t shutting off all ports of call. He is shutting off one means of travel that he has found caused him great discomfort. There are 1,000+ things we could do together to have fun and bring joy to our lives together. Why on earth would I insist on the one that causes him angst on any level? That isn’t healthy and it isn’t loving.


Refusing to be on a cruise does not stop a husband and wife from getting to any
place for a vacation or restaurant or any other place to go for a recreational activity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> No. It's about being deeply disappointed and hurt. It's about questioning the nature of my wife's attraction to me.


Buddy, what you are saying right here sounds just like when women come here and are insecure because their man looks at porn.

Perhaps that is the only comparable issue.

Most men feel women should not feel insecure about porn, and yet many women do feel insecure about it. Men can’t seem to understand why women are so insecure about it. And some women are not insecure about it at all for sure, but the ones that are do not really achieve understanding or empathy from most men. 

This issue of he got it so I should too is something that the women here don’t seem to understand. Many men do not understand it either, but I’ve seen no women who understand it at all. Only some of the men get it and they all seem to get it in the same way.

Women who are insecure about porn all get it in the same way too.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not as rare as some of you think for a man to just simply be sexy and confident and thus have a variety of sex partners if he wants them. The more you pedalstalize men who are sexier than you are, putting them up there with basketball legends and all, the more you make yourselves seem puny by comparison. YOU are saying these things, not someone else saying them to you.


I'd rather be me than any other man I know.

Had I been able to have a great variety of sex partners, I wouldn't have ended up with the wife and family that I have.

So, I'm not envying men who can bang anyone they want any more than I envy people who drive a Ferrari. 

Sure, I'd like a Ferrari, but I'm not willing to trade places with someone who owns one.

But I just don't see the point of telling every kid that they can be an astronaut, president or in the top 5% of income earners (btw, only 5% of people can be in the top 5% of anything)


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> I feel we're barking at the wrong tree here. The issue is more "you did it before tying the knot, but not after" far more than it is regarding another partner.


On this I can totally understand the issue and it would end the relationship for me. I might give it some time to improve and would try very hard, but if my partner stopped being the same sexually with me as they had been before I would be outta there eventually.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> No “super alpha macho” man who is truly secure would collapse at the thought that his woman had a bigger penis than his. If he collapsed, it was because he was on unsafe scaffolding he built out of self delusion as he was trying to appear macho.


That post struck me as off as well. It seems every time I attempt to address something similar to this topic, I get labeled an alpha male who can't possibly understand the merely mortal men as I look down from mount Olympus.

I actually don't have lightning bolts in my shorts.:wink2:


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> That post struck me as off as well. It seems every time I attempt to address something similar to this topic, I get labeled an alpha male who can't possibly understand the merely mortal men as I look down from mount Olympus.
> 
> I actually don't have lightning bolts in my shorts.:wink2:


The PUA and red pill literature literally discourage and warn men away from asking a “natural” how he does it. They have a whole spiel about how you naturals will not give them any concrete advice that they can use. The way they set up this canned rhetoric is meant to keep them all buying books by the “wasn’t a natural but learned everything I needed to know” authors and bloggers.

The same group similarly warns men not to ask women for advice on how to be more “alpha” or how to get lucky with the ladies because they are told that women do not know what they want and will send you down the wrong path. So again, don’t ask anyone else except the guru master author and other scorned men about how to improve. It is a whole thing in their culture.


----------



## Tiggy!

Buddy400 said:


> That's one of the problems with trying to explain this to women, there's no one thing that will be an analogy to most women.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd originally included the following in the post and then deleted it as being too snarky.
> 
> *Yes, we know most women would pick #2 and that's just another thing that drives men crazy"*



Like I said the reason is because I wouldn't have to see him ever again, would it be better I did this act to my husband and then couldn't stand to be around him?



> This is very common, women doing sexual things with men who they don't care for but not with those they do.
> 
> I've heard a lot about women who will sleep with guys on the first date as long as they don't consider them "relationship material".


Plenty of men do too, that's not really a female only trait.




> Sort of removes some of the incentive for us guys to be "relationship material".


If your only in a relationship for sex I can see why.


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> I became THE guy who took THE girl home or, as often as not, she took me home.


If you became THE guy who took THE girl home, then what happened to all the other guys?

I presume they were losers who needed to improve themselves.

But, if one of them really improves himself and becomes THE guy, then you're not THE guy anymore right?

The situation is that the top 10% can only contain 10% of the people. 

We aren't in Lake Wobegon where 100% of the men can be in the top 10%.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> I'd rather be me than any other man I know.
> 
> Had I been able to have a great variety of sex partners, I wouldn't have ended up with the wife and family that I have.
> 
> So, I'm not envying men who can bang anyone they want any more than I envy people who drive a Ferrari.
> 
> Sure, I'd like a Ferrari, but I'm not willing to trade places with someone who owns one.
> 
> But I just don't see the point of telling every kid that they can be an astronaut, president or in the top 5% of income earners (btw, only 5% of people can be in the top 5% of anything)


My point was that men like Personal and Conan are not in the top .00000000000001% like a top 10 athlete in the world is.

They aren’t in the top 5 % either. There are literally millions of men like them, it is far more than you think.

Extremely sexual people are everywhere and they are having sex with happy willing partners. It is not rare.


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> I'd rather be me than any other man I know.
> 
> Had I been able to have a great variety of sex partners, I wouldn't have ended up with the wife and family that I have.
> 
> So, I'm not envying men who can bang anyone they want any more than I envy people who drive a Ferrari.
> 
> Sure, I'd like a Ferrari, but I'm not willing to trade places with someone who owns one.
> 
> But I just don't see the point of telling every kid that they can be an astronaut, president or in the top 5% of income earners (btw, only 5% of people can be in the top 5% of anything)


Firstly, congratulations! Being good with yourself and in a great marriage is wonderful!

Secondly, I totally disagree with the second half of your post.

My mother fell on her face in many ways while raising me but she loved me unconditionally and told me I could do anything I set my mind to and I believed her.

If you believe you can and work at it, you pretty much can accomplish anything.

It is just a different mind set.

Being confident and successful sexually is far less strenuous than attaining other goals BTW.


----------



## oldtruck

Faithful Wife said:


> Question for guys who feel if she did it for him, she should do it for me...
> 
> Did you make it clear to your wife before you married her that you would insist on having everything anyone else ever had with her, or else you would feel betrayed and resentful? And further did you make sure she knows that no man before you better have had a bigger **** or you will use that information to torture yourself forever, while silently blaming her?
> 
> If she entered the relationship actually knowing and understanding these rules and agreeing to them, then great. Sure. Make her make good on her promise.
> 
> But if you did not say those things and now you’re putting all this on her shoulders, sorry but you must see how messed up that is, right?


Best to avoid retro active jealousy so I would not ask those questions.
Though I would of said there are so many things that I want try and explore
in bed with you. I am open to most things I think. Though I am not about
pain, open relationships, threesomes.

I would then ask her what was she open to. If we seemed compatible I would
see her as someone that I could marry.

This thread does not look at the issue this way. This thread see's it as the wife
did the whole alphabet of sex when she was single before she met her husband.
As a person she can no longer what to many of those things.

Yes it is her body, her life, her feelings, her likes. Though all this woman sees is
things from her position.

She makes it known to her husband that she has done A to Z with other men.
though she will not do any exploring with her husband. Tough on him that
he never got to do A to Z. He has to go to his grave just doing A to C.

There are marriages where there are problems when one wants it once a week
and the other wants once a day. Variety, actual lack of variety will cause problems
just as the frequency of sex.

Also it is wrong for the wife to not with her husband before she married him 
after she married him. That is the bait and switch.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Being confident and successful sexually is far less strenuous than attaining other goals BTW.


It really is. But while there is a mantra that “only a small percentage of men get to have all the sex they want” then many are going to continue believing it is a no win situation.


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> If you became THE guy who took THE girl home, then what happened to all the other guys?
> 
> I presume they were losers who needed to improve themselves.
> 
> But, if one of them really improves himself and becomes THE guy, then you're not THE guy anymore right?
> 
> The situation is that the top 10% can only contain 10% of the people.
> 
> We aren't in Lake Wobegon where 100% of the men can be in the top 10%.


They did fine. My point was aimed at raw ability verses less tangible qualities.

I'm not THE guy anymore. I've aged and matured. I would not want to be HIM anymore if I could but the experience was eye opening as far as female sexual selection goes.


----------



## oldtruck

Buddy400 said:


> I'd rather be me than any other man I know.
> 
> Had I been able to have a great variety of sex partners, I wouldn't have ended up with the wife and family that I have.
> 
> So, I'm not envying men who can bang anyone they want any more than I envy people who drive a Ferrari.
> 
> Sure, I'd like a Ferrari, but I'm not willing to trade places with someone who owns one.
> 
> But I just don't see the point of telling every kid that they can be an astronaut, president or in the top 5% of income earners (btw, only 5% of people can be in the top 5% of anything)


It only takes one woman to have a great wife, kids, and life.
People confuse with being able to get any/all of the woman/man that they want
and needing to do so.

A Ferrari, or any of those over priced cars do not do anything for me.
Suburban for me.
I may like my autos big, but not women.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> It really is. But while there is a mantra that “only a small percentage of men get to have all the sex they want” then many are going to continue believing it is a no win situation.


The lack of ability to communicate this idea is pretty frustrating.

I'm nearing 50, not in bad shape but definitely not like a tight 20 year old and I still get "the look" from many women in their 20's and men as well.

If I was single, I could still get laid every day by women 20 years my junior. I see confident women of all ages doing the same.

I also see less than confident women, who are tall and attractive, staring in desperate horniness, not knowing how to hunt and be hunted to mutual satisfaction just like their male counterparts.

It almost makes me in favor of sexual surrogates as a public health service, though ethics prevent me from endorsement.

It is sad and unnecessary.

It is amazing how many desperately horny women are out there and how many men don't seem to realize it.

The language of sex is a necessary read. Unfortunately I have been too lazy to write it.:grin2:


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Buddy, what you are saying right here sounds just like when women come here and are insecure because their man looks at porn.
> 
> Perhaps that is the only comparable issue.
> 
> Most men feel women should not feel insecure about porn, and yet many women do feel insecure about it. Men can’t seem to understand why women are so insecure about it. And some women are not insecure about it at all for sure, but the ones that are do not really achieve understanding or empathy from most men.
> 
> *This issue of he got it so I should too is something that the women here don’t seem to understand. *Many men do not understand it either, but I’ve seen no women who understand it at all. Only some of the men get it and they all seem to get it in the same way.
> 
> Women who are insecure about porn all get it in the same way too.


Quite. This is why the topic is so fascinating to me. I've never seen a topic so divided by gender.

The men here who side with the women (mostly @Personal but also @ConanHub) are men who generally got all the women they ever wanted, which i think is relevant. @ConanHub does seem to agree that it could be a problem for the man (much as I'd love to make this a week long project to dig up all the relevant quotes, I'm not going to).

My recollection is that two women came around to the men's point of view on the last go-around (or maybe it was the go-round before that).

I think it's important to make clear that this is not something any of us are thinking about all the time. It's not something men are spending a great deal of time obsessing about. We're only talking about it here because that's what the post is about. Personally, I don't recall ever thinking about this until I read this thread. But, it hits such a spot for me (and, obviously, many other men). 

It's just that when the hypothetical question is posed, men and women invariably wind up on opposite sides with more solidarity than I've seen on any other topic. If any purpose is served by this thread it's that no one having read it can claim that they didn't understand what the opposite sex would think about it.

I think men are not saying "she did with someone else so she *must* do it for me" as much as they are saying "I would be troubled by the fact that she did it with others, yet wouldn't with me". 

It's not about compelling or requiring or forcing women to perform certain acts. 

It's about feeling bad about it if it happened (which, I'm sure, it rarely does).


----------



## john117

Sex is a small fraction of what these horny looking women want. They want meaning. A purpose other than sex, kids, a job, and the freaking Thanksgiving turkey.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> My point was that men like Personal and Conan are not in the top .00000000000001% like a top 10 athlete in the world is.
> 
> They aren’t in the top 5 % either. There are literally millions of men like them, it is far more than you think.
> 
> Extremely sexual people are everywhere and they are having sex with happy willing partners. It is not rare.


Of course they're not in the top .0000000000001% but it's hard to use a random member of the top 5% basketball players; if I used Fred Gottlieb as an example, people wouldn't get the comparison.

I'm confused. 

Personal and Conan are (were) easily in the top 5% of men in desirability.

I am currently having lots of sex with a happy, willing partner and I am certainly not even in the top 50% of men as measured by women's attraction to me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Quite. This is why the topic is so fascinating to me. I've never seen a topic so divided by gender.
> 
> ).


Except the porn issue. Which I think is the same thing. They are ying yang ego issues.

Porn hurts some women’s ego the way this topic hurts some men’s ego. It is something specific to our gender’s type of ego development. It may be based in evolution (jealousy arising in response to the need to mate guard, natural indicators letting us know there may be someone on the prowl, even someone in pictures or in the past).


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Of course they're not in the top .0000000000001% but it's hard to use a random member of the top 5% basketball players; if I used Fred Gottlieb as an example, people wouldn't get the comparison.
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> Personal and Conan are (were) easily in the top 5% of men in desirability.
> 
> I am currently having lots of sex with a happy, willing partner and I am certainly not even in the top 50% of men as measured by women's attraction to me.


My bet is that you are in the top 50%. Like half of everyone is.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> My bet is that you are in the top 50%. Like half of everyone is.


I might be in the top 20% of 63 year old guys, but that's mostly because of a weak field and my winning personality.

I'm certainly not in the top 50% of all men over the age of 18.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Except the porn issue. Which I think is the same thing. They are ying yang ego issues.


I'm not so sure. Quite a few women post as pro-porn (or, at least, anti-anti-porn) and then there's CatholicDad.

If it were possible to settle the bet, I'd wager a considerable amount of money.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> I might be in the top 20% of 63 year old guys, but that's mostly because of a weak field and my winning personality.
> 
> I'm certainly not in the top 50% of all men over the age of 18.


The top 20% of 63 year old guys get laid like tile by awesome hot women of all ages who love sex and are looking for the sexy men. 

It’s a sexual jungle out here. You could be part of it if you wanted to. It’s not rare or even precious. It’s natural. We are horny animals and people **** all the time everywhere. 

Many people who could have sex with lots of partners they are attracted to choose not to. They many times are in celibate periods of their lives, or simply choose to focus on something other than sex. Or they may even be highly sexual but choose complete celibacy until a marriage commitment. Being highly sexual doesn’t mean being on a sex frenzy constantly.

Many people at TAM could have a lot more sex than they think they could, they just don’t know because they’ve been married forever and not having a good sex life and they are beaten down and don’t feel much confidence anymore. I know which ones those are - - and I read the pain in their words. But if those people could see through my little FW magic looking glass at what could be happening for them, NOT that they would want to change their lives, but they would certainly at least feel that there could be a whole lot of great sex for them.

If you want sex and are willing to put in the effort to get some, you will get some. You won’t get to decide which person it will be, because no one is guaranteed to you. So you learn to notice the ones that there is mutual attraction with and test your wheels a little bit and BAM, suddenly someone is all over you and you both love it. When people write about their post divorce sex lives when they are coming out of a crappy sex life and are now liberated by realizing how much sex one could have if they wanted to put in the effort, I love those stories. I love the sense of self the person gets back. The sexual self that they were but which they had beaten down for a long time. There are story after story by mostly divorced guys talking about the mass amounts of sex that is available to them, and yet, these guys can’t all be in the top 5%. 

Sex is everywhere. If your spouse doesn’t want you, others will. It is stark and harsh but it is absolutely true and if that gives even the tiniest glimmer of hope to anyone who is in an unhappy sex life, then yay.

(By the way I’m not talking just about cheap one night stand sex or sex workers. I’m talking about adults doing it like adults).


----------



## personofinterest

"The goal is to attempt the same things but not expect the same results."

If this is your view of sex.....

Wow. Thank God that's not why my hubby married me.

Who was it uothread that said "sexual Guinea pig"?

How bizarrely unhealthy.


----------



## CharlieParker

Faithful Wife said:


> Sex is everywhere. If your spouse doesn’t want you, others will. It is stark and harsh but it is absolutely true and if that gives even the tiniest glimmer of hope to anyone who is in an unhappy sex life, then yay.


This the old adage, you have the sex life you chose to have.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Faithful Wife said:


> Except the porn issue. Which I think is the same thing. They are ying yang ego issues.
> 
> Porn hurts some women’s ego the way this topic hurts some men’s ego. It is something specific to our gender’s type of ego development. It may be based in evolution (jealousy arising in response to the need to mate guard, natural indicators letting us know there may be someone on the prowl, even someone in pictures or in the past).


 @Faithful Wife - that is a great analogy! Lot's of guys say "What's the big deal?" with porn. Their OP is royally pissed off / hurt. Men don't get it.

Same deal with this thread! On some topics (generally, with some exceptions of course), men and women are HARD WIRED differently. No amount of debate is going to change minds. It is interesting to read & consider however.


----------



## samyeagar

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> @Faithful Wife - that is a great analogy! Lot's of guys say "What's the big deal?" with porn. Their OP is royally pissed off / hurt. Men don't get it.
> 
> Same deal with this thread! On some topics (generally, with some exceptions of course), men and women are HARD WIRED differently. No amount of debate is going to change minds. It is interesting to read & consider however.


And much like the topic of this thread, porn use usually only becomes a problem when the sex life is suffering because of it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And much like the topic of this thread, porn use usually only becomes a problem when the sex life is suffering because of it.


Some women are insecure about their man watching porn even if it doesn’t affect their sex life. It may affect her mind though and then the sex life may suffer.

On this topic, it is implied in the hypothetical scenario that there is a problem with their sex life arising from the scenario but some men are insecure about what their woman did with other men anyway and it may mess with his head and then affect the sex life, even though the sex life may actually be ok if he could just stop thinking in that way.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Some women are insecure about their man watching porn even if it doesn’t affect their sex life. It may affect her mind though and then the sex life may suffer.
> 
> On this topic, it is implied in the hypothetical scenario that there is a problem with their sex life arising from the scenario but some men are insecure about what their woman did with other men anyway and it may mess with his head and then affect the sex life, even though the sex life may actually be ok if he could just stop thinking in that way.


Of course, but more often than not, when the issue of porn comes up, it's in the context of something is wrong, then porn use is discovered later. In fact, porn use is always one of the first suggestions when a woman comes here for help with issues in her sex life with her husband.


----------



## CharlieParker

Faithful Wife said:


> the sex life may actually be ok if he could *just stop thinking*


and not just the thread topic. Not that I would know anything about that


----------



## ConanHub

Loving a woman well, making her feel high levels of love, safety enthusiasm and acceptance....

These items are gold for men who want a woman who performs all kinds of love acts including sex.

Women who love, will eat glass, walk through fire, kill sharks and contort their bodies into any form physics will allow, giving everything they possibly can for the one who holds their heart.

If she did it for him and not for you, barring displeasure or health issues, find a better hold on her heart. Learn to love her more and the way she desires and needs.

It is amazing how far she will go.

Mrs. Conan, an otherwise dignified and respected lady, will make an absolute fool of herself trying to please me in and out of the bedroom when she feels high levels of love for me and from me.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> Loving a woman well, making her feel high levels of love, safety enthusiasm and acceptance....
> 
> These items are gold for men who want a woman who performs all kinds of love acts including sex.
> 
> Women who love, will eat glass, walk through fire, kill sharks and contort their bodies into any form physics will allow, giving everything they possibly can for the one who holds their heart.
> 
> If she did it for him and not for you, barring displeasure or health issues, find a better hold on her heart. Learn to love her more and the way she desires and needs.
> 
> It is amazing how far she will go.
> 
> Mrs. Conan, an otherwise dignified and respected lady, will make an absolute fool of herself trying to please me in and out of the bedroom when she feels high levels of love for me and from me.


Are you suggesting that actions, enthusiasm, and attitude can be seen as a measure of love and physical desire?


----------



## personofinterest

"Are you suggesting that actions and attitude can be seen as a measure of love and physical desire?"

No

No

Not when they consist of a sex act checklist.

But nice try


----------



## personofinterest

To echo what 99% of me here say when a woman is hurt over porn:

Grow up and get over it


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> To echo what 99% of me here say when a woman is hurt over porn:
> 
> Grow up and get over it


I'm assuming that is "men" rather than "me". And, no, if a woman is hurt over porn because her husband is sexually rebuffing her yet still uses porn, if he can't get it up, can't finish, is only interested in a quick finish, not really interested in her pleasure and satisfaction, and he uses porn, not many men or women just say for her to grow up and get over it. The normal advice is that he needs to stop the porn, and refocus on creating a mutually satisfying sex life with his wife.

If she is feeling sexually neglected, feeling as if her husband isn't attracted to her, he shows no sexual enthusiasm for her, spends his time with porn when he has a willing wife, yet gets it up for porn, how is she supposed to feel? And if she confronts him about it what should he say? Get over it?


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> Are you suggesting that actions, enthusiasm, and attitude can be seen as a measure of love and physical desire?


It has been my experience.


----------



## samyeagar

I know my wife is capable of gushing over other men she finds attractive. I know she finds them attractive because she gushes over them. She does not gush over me the way she does them. Is it an unreasonable conclusion for me to think she finds me less attractive to her? Is it unreasonable for me to want the same outward expressions from her directed towards me?

Yes, I know it is immature behaviour on her part, but that doesn't really change the essence of the feelings involved on either part.


----------



## Wolfman1968

NobodySpecial said:


> And it probably isn't "attraction". What would one DO with that information?


 What do you mean, "probably isn't 'attraction'"? It certainly could be. 

Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time. 
So they clearly might not be "enthused" (to quote the a previous poster) to do things for their husband that they used to do.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Just look at the "Coping with Infidelity" section and see how many cheating wives do things with their affair partners that they flatly refused to consider with their husbands. 
For all the excuses posted by responders here ("different person now that they're older", "sexual tastes change over time", "they were just exploring when they were younger" etc. etc.) NONE of those could possibly apply to a wife who goes wild with the affair partner and suddenly turns it off when they're with their betrayed husband.

So really, WHY does it seem to be so hard for some of these posters to grasp that a husband with a "changed" wife wouldn't feel like he's in a very analogous situation--except in this case, the partner who drove the wife wild is a former partner, rather than a current affair partner. (Again, with the same disclaimers about changed, health, etc.).

A husband feeling this way has NOTHING to do with "entitlement" and EVERYTHING to do with a feeling of rejection, or not being desired as much. Nobody seems to have a problem grasping this in the case of a cheating wife, but the principle is the same. I don't understand why some women have absolutely NO empathy for the husband's emotions here, and can't see how---regardless of the reason for the change---it can hurt the husband. Instead so many posts here seem derisive toward the man, belittling of the man, or even angry that he would have such feelings. It's kind of disgusting to see such hateful posts.


----------



## personofinterest

"Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time."

Most mature people choose a partner based on more than just raw sexual attraction.

Yes, I feel immense sexual attraction for hubby. But that isnt THE reason I married him. Because I'm an adult.

At some point, both men and women need to move past Corey Wayne, gold chains, and "how YOU doin?'" lol

Oh, and theres a TV character I pretend swoon over. My husband gets the difference. Because its TV


----------



## RoseAglow

Against my better judgement, I am going to wade into this thread for a bit.



Wolfman1968 said:


> What do you mean, "probably isn't 'attraction'"? It certainly could be.
> 
> Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time.
> So they clearly might not be "enthused" (to quote the a previous poster) to do things for their husband that they used to do.
> 
> IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Just look at the "Coping with Infidelity" section and see how many cheating wives do things with their affair partners that they flatly refused to consider with their husbands.
> For all the excuses posted by responders here ("different person now that they're older", "sexual tastes change over time", "they were just exploring when they were younger" etc. etc.) NONE of those could possibly apply to a wife who goes wild with the affair partner and suddenly turns it off when they're with their betrayed husband.
> 
> So really, WHY does it seem to be so hard for some of these posters to grasp that a husband with a "changed" wife wouldn't feel like he's in a very analogous situation--except in this case, the partner who drove the wife wild is a former partner, rather than a current affair partner. (Again, with the same disclaimers about changed, health, etc.).


Dude, there is a HUGE difference between an affair partner and an old boyfriend, at least in real life, if not in the minds of some TAM men. This just points to the gender difference being discussed, IMO. 

Someone in an affair is like someone on drugs or someone drunk. They are going to do stupid, impulsive, destructive, and yes, some wild things. 

I grok that the idea is to say that someone who is very highly attracted will do all kinds of crazy things, and I actually agree with that basic premise. However, for the most part, in the course of a long marriage it is a rare group will always remain highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out. There are going to be low points in any long term relationship, although "low point" is relative. There are probably sex acts that married people used to do when they were younger that they no longer do, just from age and conditioning etc. Why personalize it?

But trying to compare marital sex vs affair sex- these are two different beasts. It's wondering why someone on meth acts differently than someone who is sober. It is comparing adrenaline in a dangerous and exciting setting vs on a normal happy Friday night. 

Yet- here is the thing. As a woman reading this thread, I am not at all surprised that there is a comparison being made between a BH and his WW and a man who is not getting the same sexual acts from his wife that she did when she was younger. 

It is the same basic complaint: the wife is CHEATING the man out of something, he is being cheated out of sexual fidelity and sexual behaviors. Some men feel cheated out of something that was freely given to someone else, long before he was in the picture.

So I do believe that many times the man feels as if his wife has betrayed him, that she has wronged him, simply by not wanting to do anal (as an example) again.

This is why, as a woman, I do find this thread distasteful. 



> A husband feeling this way has NOTHING to do with "entitlement" and EVERYTHING to do with a feeling of rejection, or not being desired as much. Nobody seems to have a problem grasping this in the case of a cheating wife, but the principle is the same. I don't understand why some women have absolutely NO empathy for the husband's emotions here, and can't see how---regardless of the reason for the change---it can hurt the husband. Instead so many posts here seem derisive toward the man, belittling of the man, or even angry that he would have such feelings. It's kind of disgusting to see such hateful posts.


It can only hurt the husband if he personalizes it. Again, a cheating wife is NOT the same as a wife who, for whatever reason, is no longer up for the same sexual acts. 

I can feel empathy for someone, for example, who used to get blow jobs from his wife, but she is no longer interested. I can feel a TON of empathy for someone is no longer getting any sex- and sadly, we see this a lot on TAM from both men and women. Where I lose empathy is on the "but she did it for him!" add-on. 

"I really miss BJs" is a different message than "You won't give me BJs but you gave them to Tom!" The former is a statement of how one feels now; the latter is a tantrum. One is a statement with a problem to be fixed; the other is an implied entitlement, a cry that the man is cheated out of something that his wife, should by all rights, give to him since she gave it to others.

ETA: Also, I do understand that rejection hurts. I've been rejected in my marriage at times (and I've done some rejecting.) At one point we went months without sex, and I did think back to something my H said, that he and his first wife once went 4 months without having sex. It didn't mean much though, other than I knew he had it in him to go for quite some time. We were in a low point in our marriage, hopefully our lowest. Thankfully we got past it; our marriage and sex life are much, much improved since then. 

We all get that rejection sucks, some of us more than others.

My issue is that "You did it for him but not for me!" is more than rejection; it is hurt ego. The first poster even states flat out that it is a hit to the ego. And somehow, the fact that a woman won't suck your **** is somehow a hit against you that she should even care about. 

So one more time: "Our sex life sucks and we need to improve it" is a problem we can solve together.

"You sucked Tom's **** but you won't suck mine!!" is a ego-driven complaint. It is trying to solve the problem by making me feel guilty, it is trying to make me the bad one who is somehow wronging you.

This is my perspective on it and I have to think that I am not the only woman (or even man) who thinks this way.


----------



## CharlieParker

personofinterest said:


> Most mature people choose a partner based on more than just raw sexual attraction.


When we were much younger we’d ask each other, “it’s NOT JUST all about the sex” and would try to reassure each other “of course not”. 25+ years later we joke “it is all about the sex”, and yup, of course it is


----------



## 269370

Of course people don’t choose their partner based only on raw sexual attraction. But it doesn’t mean that the attraction part is not important; it’s a foundation on which other things rest.

But for a successful, long term partnership you need compatibility in many areas, not just sex. 
What good does it do if you have sex like monkeys everyday yet unable to live together / tolerate each other when it comes to other things besides sex. Great sex life is not going to make up for all the rest.

As to why so many when ‘whine’ and act ‘entitled’ or ‘insecure’ on TAM: I think that’s a superficial assessment; many here speak their mind and say stuff they probably wouldn’t say directly to their partner or IRL. It’s not just a TAM ‘phenomenon’ but happens anywhere. If you are with a partner who acts all ‘secure’ (whatever that means), it doesn’t mean they don’t have some insecurities deep down that they don’t easily want to share with you. It’s easier for men doing it on TAM because it’s anonymous and nobody will judge them (yet people still do). Plus it’s probably because you haven’t been long enough with that person in the relationship for it to become more ‘real’, when people are comfortable enough not to hide behind a facade to impress.

I don’t anyway believe that men who go on at length and (over)compensate by writing/saying how secure they are, have no/few insecurities. There’s no such thing; just because someone says they have no insecurities, doesn’t mean that that is the case. We all see ourselves in a completely subjective light which may have little to do with reality and I actually think that being more down to earth with your own assessment about yourself and face your own insecurities (instead of hiding them), is less delusional, on balance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> "Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time."
> 
> Most mature people choose a partner based on more than just raw sexual attraction.
> 
> Yes, I feel immense sexual attraction for hubby. But that isnt THE reason I married him. Because I'm an adult.
> 
> At some point, both men and women need to move past Corey Wayne, gold chains, and "how YOU doin?'" lol
> 
> Oh, and theres a TV character I pretend swoon over. My husband gets the difference. Because its TV


Indeed, many people do marry for reasons in addition to sexual attraction. I imagine most people marry with the impression that their partner did not settle or seriously compromise in choosing to marry them. They marry with the idea that their partner is giving everything they can, that they are the best because after all, they choose to marry them. It can be quite devastating to learn otherwise.


----------



## ConanHub

Wolfman1968 said:


> What do you mean, "probably isn't 'attraction'"? It certainly could be.
> 
> Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time.
> So they clearly might not be "enthused" (to quote the a previous poster) to do things for their husband that they used to do.
> 
> IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Just look at the "Coping with Infidelity" section and see how many cheating wives do things with their affair partners that they flatly refused to consider with their husbands.
> For all the excuses posted by responders here ("different person now that they're older", "sexual tastes change over time", "they were just exploring when they were younger" etc. etc.) NONE of those could possibly apply to a wife who goes wild with the affair partner and suddenly turns it off when they're with their betrayed husband.
> 
> So really, WHY does it seem to be so hard for some of these posters to grasp that a husband with a "changed" wife wouldn't feel like he's in a very analogous situation--except in this case, the partner who drove the wife wild is a former partner, rather than a current affair partner. (Again, with the same disclaimers about changed, health, etc.).
> 
> A husband feeling this way has NOTHING to do with "entitlement" and EVERYTHING to do with a feeling of rejection, or not being desired as much. Nobody seems to have a problem grasping this in the case of a cheating wife, but the principle is the same. I don't understand why some women have absolutely NO empathy for the husband's emotions here, and can't see how---regardless of the reason for the change---it can hurt the husband. Instead so many posts here seem derisive toward the man, belittling of the man, or even angry that he would have such feelings. It's kind of disgusting to see such hateful posts.


I agree. I empathize with the emotions and situations you posted about here even though they have never happened to me.
@Faithful Wife might have a point about most women not getting it.


----------



## 269370

If the question has to be posed in this way (as in the thread title), it is likely that there are other things wrong in the relationship and the lacklustre sex life and the fear stemming from asking something of your partner sexually is a symptom of something else. There’s no reason why you can’t just do or ask for something sexually, in an otherwise healthy relationship without the ‘emotional blackmail’ type of undertone (why does Charlie get an ice cream but I don’t?)

It’s true that the ‘ice cream’ is not there to be ‘given’ but to be shared, ideally.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> I know my wife is capable of gushing over other men she finds attractive. I know she finds them attractive because she gushes over them. She does not gush over me the way she does them. Is it an unreasonable conclusion for me to think she finds me less attractive to her? Is it unreasonable for me to want the same outward expressions from her directed towards me?
> 
> Yes, I know it is immature behaviour on her part, but that doesn't really change the essence of the feelings involved on either part.


 @samyear, this just sucks. I would be furious if my H gushed over other women right in front of me, period. That is some seriously bad behavior.


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> Against my better judgement, I am going to wade into this thread for a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, there is a HUGE difference between an affair partner and an old boyfriend, at least in real life, if not in the minds of some TAM men. This just points to the gender difference being discussed, IMO.
> 
> Someone in an affair is like someone on drugs or someone drunk. They are going to do stupid, impulsive, destructive, and yes, some wild things.
> 
> I grok that the idea is to say that someone who is very highly attracted will do all kinds of crazy things, and I actually agree with that basic premise. However, for the most part, in the course of a long marriage it is a rare group will always remain highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out. There are going to be low points in any long term relationship, although "low point" is relative. There are probably sex acts that married people used to do when they were younger that they no longer do, just from age and conditioning etc. Why personalize it?
> 
> But trying to compare marital sex vs affair sex- these are two different beasts. It's wondering why someone on meth acts differently than someone who is sober. It is comparing adrenaline in a dangerous and exciting setting vs on a normal happy Friday night.
> 
> Yet- here is the thing. As a woman reading this thread, I am not at all surprised that there is a comparison being made between a BH and his WW and a man who is not getting the same sexual acts from his wife that she did when she was younger.
> 
> It is the same basic complaint: the wife is CHEATING the man out of something, he is being cheated out of sexual fidelity and sexual behaviors. Some men feel cheated out of something that was freely given to someone else, long before he was in the picture.
> 
> So I do believe that many times the man feels as if his wife has betrayed him, that she has wronged him, simply by not wanting to do anal (as an example) again.
> 
> This is why, as a woman, I do find this thread distasteful.
> 
> 
> 
> It can only hurt the husband if he personalizes it. Again, a cheating wife is NOT the same as a wife who, for whatever reason, is no longer up for the same sexual acts.
> 
> I can feel empathy for someone, for example, who used to get blow jobs from his wife, but she is no longer interested. I can feel a TON of empathy for someone is no longer getting any sex- and sadly, we see this a lot on TAM from both men and women. Where I lose empathy is on the "but she did it for him!" add-on.
> 
> "I really miss BJs" is a different message than "You won't give me BJs but you gave them to Tom!" The former is a statement of how one feels now; the latter is a tantrum. One is a statement with a problem to be fixed; the other is an implied entitlement, a cry that the man is cheated out of something that his wife, should by all rights, give to him since she gave it to others.
> 
> ETA: Also, I do understand that rejection hurts. I've been rejected in my marriage at times (and I've done some rejecting.) At one point we went months without sex, and I did think back to something my H said, that he and his first wife once went 4 months without having sex. It didn't mean much though, other than I knew he had it in him to go for quite some time. We were in a low point in our marriage, hopefully our lowest. Thankfully we got past it; our marriage and sex life are much, much improved since then.
> 
> We all get that rejection sucks, some of us more than others.
> 
> My issue is that "You did it for him but not for me!" is more than rejection; it is hurt ego. The first poster even states flat out that it is a hit to the ego. And somehow, the fact that a woman won't suck your **** is somehow a hit against you that she should even care about.
> 
> So one more time: "Our sex life sucks and we need to improve it" is a problem we can solve together.
> 
> "You sucked Tom's **** but you won't suck mine!!" is a ego-driven complaint. It is trying to solve the problem by making me feel guilty, it is trying to make me the bad one who is somehow wronging you.
> 
> This is my perspective on it and I have to think that I am not the only woman (or even man) who thinks this way.


We're not talking about things a couple used to do but don't any more. We're talking about things that were never on the table to begin with. Where one partner may have been interested, but the other removes it from consideration.

I think sexual enthusiasm and engagement with a partner is a very reasonable measure of sexual attraction. I think most people will be more open and engaged with someone they are attracted to.

My wife was very sexually active. There are things she did that for various reasons won't ever do again. I'm fine with that because I have no doubt that I am getting all of her enthusiasm and engagement. No doubt in my mind how horny she is for me.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Some women are insecure about their man watching porn even if it doesn’t affect their sex life. It may affect her mind though and then the sex life may suffer.
> 
> On this topic, it is implied in the hypothetical scenario that there is a problem with their sex life arising from the scenario but some men are insecure about what their woman did with other men anyway and it may mess with his head and then affect the sex life, even though the sex life may actually be ok if he could just stop thinking in that way.


Just to define what "insecure" means.....

Grandma gives the other grand children $100 for their birthday but only gives Bobby $5 for his. 

If Bobby believes that this might indicate that Grandma likes the other grand kids more than him, is he "insecure"?

Or is there a pretty good chance he's right?

If the "given" part here bothers anyone, feel free to substitute Grandma playing catch with the other grand kids for hours but only for 5 minutes with Bobby.


----------



## RoseAglow

samyeagar said:


> We're not talking about things a couple used to do but don't any more. We're talking about things that were never on the table to begin with. Where one partner may have been interested, but the other removes it from consideration.
> 
> I think sexual enthusiasm and engagement with a partner is a very reasonable measure of sexual attraction. I think most people will be more open and engaged with someone they are attracted to.
> 
> My wife was very sexually active. There are things she did that for various reasons won't ever do again. I'm fine with that because I have no doubt that I am getting all of her enthusiasm and engagement. No doubt in my mind how horny she is for me.



So there are some things that your wife doesn't want to do with you, and never has- yet you are still sure that she is attracted to you?

So you HAVE had things that are not available sexually to you from your wife yet your ego isn't crushed?

You didn't take it personally and you don't seem to be upset that she did things for other lovers that she is no longer interested in doing. 

I am not surprised that you two have a healthy sex life. It is much for fun for both partners to go have fun with things that they both enjoy, rather than having one partner fixated and pouting on something they can't have. 

I'd say we are on the same page here.


----------



## azimuth

It's not "hateful" it's total bewilderment that someone would act this way. As a woman I'm not turned on by a man demanding certain sexual acts from me, with the only impetus being that I did them with someone else, therefore they must be done with him as well. That makes me feel like property. And if a guy said "the damage is done" (like someone said above) and he would leave the marriage or end the relationship I would say good riddance.

Maybe the men feel disappointment in their own sexual skill and are taking it out on the wife. Instead of throwing a toddler tantrum about her past, if the husband would just try the act, or playfully talk about it being something they could try, or turning up the heat in the bedroom to spice up their sex to explore more, they would have more success.

I've loved nearly everything about the sex I've had in my life but I was trying to think of something that I don't necessarily want to try again so I could relate to this post, and that's the 69 position. I've done it, it didn't hurt, it wasn't traumatic, but I don't really care to ever do it again. If a future partner found out I had done it before but not with him, I would not expect him to be hurt by it and I certainly wouldn't expect him to make a huge deal and end the relationship over it. I didn't do it with the other guys because I was more attracted to them. I'm not with them anymore, I chose him.

I'm getting really bad feelings about this thread now. Like if a woman gave consent in the past, she's fair game for it no matter what or which man or when. Like, a used woman doesn't get a say because she's already done it. Creeping me out.


----------



## Buddy400

Wolfman1968 said:


> I don't understand why some women have absolutely NO empathy for the husband's emotions here,


One of the wisest things I heard on the internet is that it is impossible for woman to have empathy for men.

This is especially true of a man that she might see as a romantic partner.


----------



## RoseAglow

Buddy400 said:


> One of the wisest things I heard on the internet is that it is impossible for woman to have empathy for men.
> 
> This is especially true of a man that she might see as a romantic partner.


You may have heard this before, but you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.


----------



## azimuth

samyeagar said:


> I know my wife is capable of gushing over other men she finds attractive. I know she finds them attractive because she gushes over them. She does not gush over me the way she does them. Is it an unreasonable conclusion for me to think she finds me less attractive to her? Is it unreasonable for me to want the same outward expressions from her directed towards me?
> 
> Yes, I know it is immature behaviour on her part, but that doesn't really change the essence of the feelings involved on either part.



That's not just immature behavior on her part, that's flat out blatant disrespect toward you.


----------



## Tiggy!

Buddy400 said:


> Just to define what "insecure" means.....
> 
> Grandma gives the other grand children $100 for their birthday but only gives Bobby $5 for his.
> 
> If Bobby believes that this might indicate that Grandma likes the other grand kids more than him, is he "insecure"?
> 
> Or is there a pretty good chance he's right?
> 
> If the "given" part here bothers anyone, feel free to substitute Grandma playing catch with the other grand kids for hours but only for 5 minutes with Bobby.


Unless a woman is having sex with other men at the same time she's with her husband this analogy doesn't work.


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> So there are some things that your wife doesn't want to do with you, and never has- yet you are still sure that she is attracted to you?
> 
> So you HAVE had things that are not available sexually to you from your wife yet your ego isn't crushed?
> 
> You didn't take it personally and you don't seem to be upset that she did things for other lovers that she is no longer interested in doing.
> 
> I am not surprised that you two have a healthy sex life. It is much for fun for both partners to go have fun with things that they both enjoy, rather than having one partner fixated and pouting on something they can't have.
> 
> I'd say we are on the same page here.


Things that caused her physical and emotional pain, things done out of desperation, yes, there are things she did that she won't do again. I understand her reasons. She's otherwise all in.


----------



## RoseAglow

*Re: you did other men, but not me?*



Tiggy! said:


> Unless a woman is having sex with other men at the same time she's with her husband this analogy doesn't work.


Here is what's funny.

In the last few pages we've read:

1. Women who won't do the same sex acts with their H as they did with former lovers is just like when a WW won't have sex with her BS
2. Women who won't do the same sex acts with their H as they did with former lovers is akin to when a Grandmom gives one grandkid $100 but another grandkid $5. Obviously we gave something of greater value to other men and we preferred them, even though we didn't marry them. Obviously!
3. One of the wisest things men can read on the internet is that women are not able to have empathy for the men they love.


Yet, we are the ones with the problem here, why would women be offended by any of this? *face palm*


----------



## Buddy400

azimuth said:


> It's not "hateful" it's total bewilderment that someone would act this way. As a woman I'm not turned on by a man demanding certain sexual acts from me, with the only impetus being that I did them with someone else, therefore they must be done with him as well. That makes me feel like property. And if a guy said "the damage is done" (like someone said above) and he would leave the marriage or end the relationship I would say good riddance.
> I chose him.
> 
> ....................
> 
> I'm getting really bad feelings about this thread now. Like if a woman gave consent in the past, she's fair game for it no matter what or which man or when. Like, a used woman doesn't get a say because she's already done it. Creeping me out.


Two things: 

One, no one here (that I'm aware of, other than the OP) is demanding anything. At most they are saying that this would make them feel bad. 

Two, no one here is saying that a woman's consent is unnecessary.

I has been repeatedly said by men that what a woman chooses to do or not do with her body s completely her choice.

The only thing that is not the woman's choice is to require that her husband must not feel bad about it.

This topic clearly triggers women to read far more into it than what is said.


----------



## Buddy400

Tiggy! said:


> Unless a woman is having sex with other men at the same time she's with her husband this analogy doesn't work.


I'm not making an analogy (in this case).

I'm trying to determine if Bobby's feeling that his Grandma may like her other grandchildren more than him is a sign that he is "insecure".

Or, is there a pretty good chance that he's right?


----------



## RoseAglow

Buddy400 said:


> Two things:
> 
> One, no one hear (that I'm aware of) is demanding anything. At most they are saying that this would make them feel bad.
> 
> Two, no one here is saying that a woman's consent is unnecessary.
> 
> I has been repeatedly said by men that what a woman chooses to do or not do with her body s completely her choice.
> 
> *The only thing that is not the woman's choice is to require that her husband must not feel bad about it.*
> 
> This topic clearly triggers women to read far more into it than what is said.


There is no requirement that he can't feel badly about missing out on a desired act. And of course, anyone would feel badly about being rejected.

I am reacting against the "But you did it for him! Why not for me?" part. It is the "it's like having a cheating wife" or "it's like getting $5 when other people got $100." 

We are all going to miss out on some things in life. When it comes to sex, I prefer to go with @samyear's strategy and find things that we both enjoy.


----------



## azimuth

Buddy400 said:


> Two things:
> 
> One, no one hear (that I'm aware of) is demanding anything. At most they are saying that this would make them feel bad.
> 
> Two, no one here is saying that a woman's consent is unnecessary.
> 
> I has been repeatedly said by men that what a woman chooses to do or not do with her body s completely her choice.
> 
> The only thing that is not the woman's choice is to require that her husband must not feel bad about it.
> 
> This topic clearly triggers women to read far more into it than what is said.



Yep, that's me, a hysterical triggery woman who can't think straight. ///

The women here aren't the ones threatening to end marriages and relationships over sex acts the woman did in the past. Remind me which gender is supposed to be more logical and doesn't make decisions based on emotion.


----------



## Randy Lafever

Buddy400 said:


> One of the wisest things I heard on the internet is that it is impossible for woman to have empathy for men.
> 
> This is especially true of a man that she might see as a romantic partner.


Yeah you can't let a woman feel sorry for you. Her subconscious perception of you will be changed forever, and never for the good.


----------



## Buddy400

*Re: you did other men, but not me?*



RoseAglow said:


> 2. Women who won't do the same sex acts with their H as they did with former lovers is akin to when a Grandmom gives one grandkid $100 but another grandkid $5. Obviously we gave something of greater value to other men and we preferred them, even though we didn't marry them. Obviously!


By marrying a man, you are making it clear that he is the man that you wanted to marry.

Men here aren't wondering if their wife really wanted to marry them, they're wondering if their wife is as attracted to them as she was to a man or men in her past.

Two completely different things.

The Grandma situation was an attempt to determine what "insecure" means.


----------



## RoseAglow

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not making an analogy (in this case).
> 
> I'm trying to determine if Bobby's feeling that his Grandma may like her other grandchildren more than him is a sign that he is "insecure".
> 
> Or, is there a pretty good chance that he's right?


So again, this basically reduces sex acts to a dollar amount, but let's play anyway. 

Let's say that 5 years ago, Grandma gave her other children $100. She has not given them any more money since that time. 

Today, Grandma gave Bobby $5. We don't know why she only gave Bobby $5 and not $100. However, we do know that Grandma has set up her bank account so that no other kids get any more money from her, ever, and Bobby is set up to get $5 weekly for the next 20+ years . In addition, Bobby lives in Grandma's rental house and Grandma works at the local college and so Bobby is able to go for free.

So even though Bobby didn't get the exact dollar amount of the other grandkids, he is getting much more from Grandma.

Wouldn't it suck for everyone if Bobby just focused on that silly $100?


----------



## samyeagar

RoseAglow said:


> There is no requirement that he can't feel badly about missing out on a desired act. And of course, anyone would feel badly about being rejected.
> 
> I am reacting against the "But you did it for him! Why not for me?" part. It is the "it's like having a cheating wife" or "it's like getting $5 when other people got $100."
> 
> We are all going to miss out on some things in life. When it comes to sex, I prefer to go with @samyear's strategy and find things that we both enjoy.


My strategy was marrying a woman who is clearly into me sexually. I know she is by how she engages and actively participated. I can tell she is by the things she does and how she does them. It would be a very different story if she wasn't enthusiastically engaged.


----------



## Tiggy!

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not making an analogy (in this case).
> 
> I'm trying to determine if Bobby's feeling that his Grandma may like her other grandchildren more than him is a sign that he is "insecure".
> 
> Or, is there a pretty good chance that he's right?


Ok so Grandma didn't play catch with Bobby for hours , but Grandma has taken only him to Disney World (and is constantly taking out to trips and doing things she's never done with the other grandchildren).
Does the fact Grandma hasn't played catch with Bobby negate everything has done with Bobby?

If in this scenario Bobby honed in on this one thing Grandma didn't do with him and complained that meant grandma liked her other grandchildren more I wouldn't view him as being insecure, I would think he was a brat.


----------



## azimuth

Being enthusiastically engaged isn't what the thread's about. It's about women who participated in certain sex acts that she doesn't do with the new partner.


----------



## samyeagar

Tiggy! said:


> Ok so Grandma didn't play catch with Bobby for hours , but Grandma has taken only him to Disney World (and is constantly taking out to trips and doing things she's never done with the other grandchildren).
> Does the fact Grandma hasn't played catch with Bobby negate everything has done with Bobby?


If grandma is all excited to take the other grandkids, but then sighs and says fine, what ever when Bobby wants to go to
Pretty clear then who grandma likes better.


----------



## samyeagar

azimuth said:


> Being enthusiastically engaged isn't what the thread's about. It's about women who participated in certain sex acts that she doesn't do with the new partner.


It absolutely IS about enthusiastic engagement.


----------



## azimuth

samyeagar said:


> It absolutely IS about enthusiastic engagement.


So if a woman did a certain act with one partner but not with the next, then she is not enthusiastically engaged?


----------



## Tiggy!

samyeagar said:


> If grandma is all excited to take the other grandkids, but then sighs and says fine, what ever when Bobby wants to go to
> Pretty clear then who grandma likes better.


The other grandkids weren't taken.


----------



## Randy Lafever

Can we just drop the analogies and admit we all want Grandma and Bobby to hook up?


----------



## Buddy400

RoseAglow said:


> You may have heard this before, but you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.


There was a long thread along these lines not too long ago, more about men's inability to show emotions to their partner (they'd kind of like too, but they know that their women would be turned off).

My position for the first 50 years or so of my life was that, of course, women empathize with men. I just saw very little evidence that that was true. 

When I read that, it seemed plausible, a light bulb went off and I understood things I hadn't before.


** Not that this will make you feel good, but I've always considered you to be one of the women on this site most emphatic to men.


----------



## RoseAglow

nogutsnoglory said:


> So I am a bit curious as to the logic and understanding of men and woman.
> I have read (and experienced) what it feel like to be told that "that was then and this is now"
> *Meaning the sexual acts you performed with other men and or woman is a part of the past and not something you want to do with your husband.
> 
> Obviously anal is a popular one, but there are many others.
> 
> Woman, do you have basic knowledge of a male ego?
> Do you realize what a shot to a males ego this is?
> *
> I am not talking about you tried something once in college and it hurt so you won't do it again.
> 
> I am talking about you actively did some things with other men and woman in your wilder days and your H wants some of that from you and you deny him this. Especially stuff you admit you enjoyed back then.
> 
> Does it matter to you that it makes him feel like he is not the sexual creature your past lover was and this is why you will not indulge him. After all it is just a sexual act with your H, so why the stance to withhold, knowing it will hurt him and possibly hurt the marriage in the long run. Do you not realixe you gave this gift to a guy that did not love you and now you would be making the man that chose to be with you for life very happy and feel very appreciated if he knew that he had gotten all the sexual gifts you have given others and more.
> My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.
> 
> I have since gotten past the moral side of this stuff (as best I can) and want to see and feel, experience this stuff with my wife. After all, there is a guy out there walking around that knows her wild side better than I do, and I would like to have some mind movies of my wife in my head with me as the man, versus the mind movies of what she did with other men. Male ego at work. Do not fault me for having one.
> 
> Does any of this make sense to anyone?
> 
> I was allowed to have her past matter to me for any reason I saw fit and she lied to me, so how I feel now and what I want, is her consequence for lying to me. IMO.
> 
> I will not divorce her for this, so don't go there. I love her and who she is today, but my ego has been slammed to the ground and I want to do something about it.
> It is not like having some crazy sex with her H will change who she is, just make her more fun for me really. So what is the big deal? Can't you see that *if you gave a sexual gift to one man in your past that your H might want to have that gift given to him.*. I just do not see the logic of woman that do not get this.



I haven't read all 200 pages of this thread. But the OP is about getting a sexual act or a few acts that a wife used to do, but no longer wants to do.

it is not about a sexless marriage nor is it about a wife who is not into sex with her H- she is just not into certain specific acts.

The OP clearly states several times that this is an Ego issue for him- "the male ego at work", to be precise.

It is about HIM being "cheated" out of his wife's wild past, a line of thought which has been echoed throughout the posts I've read, including recent posts.

I sincerely hope that this OP was able to shut off the mind movies and has since been able to establish a happy and healthy sex life with his wife.


----------



## Buddy400

Tiggy! said:


> *I wouldn't view him as being insecure*, I would think he was a brat.


Thanks, that's what I was getting at.

I have problems with this being labeled as a result of being "insecure".

I can see discussing whether or not Bobby's a brat, I just don't see it as a sign of insecurity.


----------



## Tiggy!

Buddy400 said:


> Thanks, that's what I was getting at.
> 
> I have problems with this being labeled as a result of being "insecure".
> 
> I can see discussing whether or not Bobby's a brat,* I just don't see it as a sign of insecurity*.


I don't either (not in most cases anyway) .


----------



## azimuth

If the woman had never done the sex acts in question, and the husband wasn't getting them now, then that would be ok. It's the fact that she had done it before, then she should be down for it no matter what, when, where or who, because she's done it before. If she doesn't do it with her current partner, then she's not enthusiastically engaged. If she has never done it though, then she's still enthusiastically engaged and all is well. Certain sex acts can be meaningless or marriage ending, depending on if the woman had done it in the past with someone else.

ETA: ^that's what I'm getting from the men here.


----------



## personofinterest

azimuth said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two things:
> 
> One, no one hear (that I'm aware of) is demanding anything. At most they are saying that this would make them feel bad.
> 
> Two, no one here is saying that a woman's consent is unnecessary.
> 
> I has been repeatedly said by men that what a woman chooses to do or not do with her body s completely her choice.
> 
> The only thing that is not the woman's choice is to require that her husband must not feel bad about it.
> 
> This topic clearly triggers women to read far more into it than what is said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that's me, a hysterical triggery woman who can't think straight. ///
> 
> The women here aren't the ones threatening to end marriages and relationships over sex acts the woman did in the past. Remind me which gender is supposed to be more logical and doesn't make decisions based on emotion.
Click to expand...

A-freaking-men.

This is like talking to a whiny wall.

I'm too tired from multiple romps with my non-whiny husband today to even argue about this stupidity anymore.


----------



## Randy Lafever

Buddy400 said:


> There was a long thread along these lines not too long ago, more about men's inability to show emotions to their partner (they'd kind of like too, but they know that their women would be turned off).


Right. I can never reveal my mental illness to my wife, nor can I explain that it is the reason for so many of the things she finds unsatisfactory about me, because to expose weakness is the worst thing I could do.


----------



## Buddy400

RoseAglow said:


> The OP clearly states several times that this is an Ego issue for him- "the male ego at work", to be precise.


Saying it's about the "male ego" is probably a pretty good approximation.

Men want (unreasonably so) to think that their wife is more sexually attracted to him than anyone else in her life and that she finds sex with him to be the best she's ever had.

Of course, that's unlikely to be the case. We can deal with that as long as it's not thrown in our face.

I guess not throwing that in our face is an effort to avoid damaging our "frail male ego". 

Why is it so bad to consider our "male ego"? It seems like the kind thing to do.

Does anyone ever complain at having to take to care not to hurt a woman's feeling unnecessarily (or a man's for that matter)?

Why so dismissive of something that's obviously so important to us (as silly as it may seem to most women)? 

Yes, I think it's part of women not being able to (or wanting to) have empathy for men.


----------



## personofinterest

If you think saying no is throwing it in a man's face, YOU have the priblem.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I know my wife is capable of gushing over other men she finds attractive. I know she finds them attractive because she gushes over them. She does not gush over me the way she does them. Is it an unreasonable conclusion for me to think she finds me less attractive to her? Is it unreasonable for me to want the same outward expressions from her directed towards me?
> 
> Yes, I know it is immature behaviour on her part, but that doesn't really change the essence of the feelings involved on either part.


To me, this is a different issue because it is not about a sex act she has performed with anyone else, and it is something she is currently doing that is disrespectful. And no, your conclusions are not unreasonable. Her behavior is unreasonable.


----------



## personofinterest

Faithful Wife said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know my wife is capable of gushing over other men she finds attractive. I know she finds them attractive because she gushes over them. She does not gush over me the way she does them. Is it an unreasonable conclusion for me to think she finds me less attractive to her? Is it unreasonable for me to want the same outward expressions from her directed towards me?
> 
> Yes, I know it is immature behaviour on her part, but that doesn't really change the essence of the feelings involved on either part.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, this is a different issue because it is not about a sex act she has performed with anyone else, and it is something she is currently doing that is disrespectful. And no, your conclusions are not unreasonable. Her behavior is unreasonable.
Click to expand...

Exactly

It's like analogies get wilder and wilder to try to force people to validate ridiculousness.


----------



## Married but Happy

If my wife isn't enthusiastic about me and being with me, then why would she be my wife, and why would I want her as my wife? She may not do everything with me she did with someone else (but as far as I know, she does), but as long as what she does is with passion for me, I don't really care.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Exactly
> 
> It's like analogies get wilder and wilder to try to force people to validate ridiculousness.


I really don't think there is anything exactly analogous, I do however think that feeling elicited in various situations can be.

The reason I brought that up is because I think my wife's actions with regards to other men, and in action with regards to me as it pertains to the things she says...I think it is reasonable to conclude that she finds them more attractive than me. That is not an unreasonable conclusion. 

A more direct example with my wife and I was how she wanted to use sex toys, and I didn't. She accepted that until she found out that I used them quite extensively with my ex wife.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> "Some women chose mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction. It happens all the time."
> 
> Most mature people choose a partner based on more than just raw sexual attraction.
> 
> Yes, I feel immense sexual attraction for hubby. But that isnt THE reason I married him. Because I'm an adult.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Well, I probably didn't complete my thought in my sentence. It's better said as:
> 
> "Some women chose a mate for reasons other than just raw sexual attraction TO THE POINT THAT SEXUAL ATTRACTION DOESN'T EVEN FACTOR IN HIGHLY IN THEIR DECISION. It happens all the time."
> 
> The point I am trying to make is that other factors---such as social position, good provider, good father, wealth, whatever---can become the predominant reasons to choose a mate to the point that the sexual attraction becomes a DISTANT 4th, 5th etc. She may marry a guy who is a "10" as a provider and a "10" in good father potential but only feel a "4 or 5" on the sexual attraction level. Still she marries him for the other factors, but because she only feels a "4 or 5" attraction, she can't bring herself to do the wild things that she did for guys who rated "10" on attractiveness. It happens all the time. Wife goes wild with the "bad boys" early on but settles down for boring sex with a safe husband. Because wants the safety, but she can't bring herself to be wild with Mr. Boring.
> 
> NO man should feel he's second-rate in his wife's sexual attraction. It's simply not fair to him. And it's a legitimate complaint, not "whining".
> 
> You keep bragging about how attracted you are to your husband, and how you two do things together. But what if you weren't so attracted, and he was just "meh" to you? But you married him anyway? (Don't bother arguing YOU wouldn't marry in such a situation, because the point of the OP is to talk about women who would.) I would very much doubt you would feel so driven to explore to the sexual edge. THAT'S what the issue is, and to say "I'm not that way" just evades the question which is about women who ARE that way.
> 
> And personally, I think your fixation on your personal situation prevents you from having any empathy for the men being cheated of the opportunity to be with a woman who really DOES crave them in EVERY way.


----------



## Wolfman1968

azimuth said:


> So if a woman did a certain act with one partner but not with the next, then she is not enthusiastically engaged?



Look, there is post, after post, after post in this thread _ad nauseam_ from women who say that THEY don't have that issue in their marriage because they have such a great relationship with their sexy husbands who make them feel so safe and respected that they are always pushing the boundaries together. 

The women who post this for the most part seem to think this is a rebuttal of the OP's premise. However, it sure seems to me that it all they really are doing is CONFIRMING the premise of the OP. Because they are actually saying that their relationship and how they feel sexually towards their husbands influences their desire to explore sexually.

So, when a husband hears that "no, I won't do what I did before", he's hearing "no, I don't feel as strongly sexually attracted to you as I did with others". And it's NOT unreasonable to interpret it that way, because, as we can see from these posts, there are many women here posting that very sentiment. 

I don't understand why it is so hard to see it from the rejected husbands' perspective without dismissing it as "whining", "insecure (in a hateful manner)", "just wanting to check it off" and other derogatory sentiments which have been posted here. Why is it so hard for some of these posters to understand that it really isn't all that unreasonable for a spouse---the one you are supposed to have chosen above all others in the world as a life partner AND a sexual partner--to want to feel that your attraction to him is greater than you have ever felt to anyone else and you sexually desire him above all others? And that talk is cheap, that it's easy to say "I desire you sexually more than anyone", but nothing reinforces it like ACTION. 

Is that really such a hard concept to understand? And for those who understand but reject it, is it really such an unreasonable sentiment? 

I certainly don't think so. Maybe those who feel that they don't have to put forth an effort to make their spouse feel more desired than anyone else will say it's "whining' or "insecure", but I think the problem lies with those who can't wrap their head around the fact that it's a normal human NEED to feel like they're the ones that sparks their spouse's desires, and that husbands have that need as well. The problem is NOT with those who want to feel desired, because that's part of being human.


So, to respond to your question/post.....if a woman does a certain act with one partner and not the next, it sure LOOKS like she's not enthusiastically engaged. Whether she is enthusiastically engaged in her mind or not, it is foolish to be unaware that ACTIONS SEND MESSAGES. 

And for all those poster who are fixated on "a woman's right to say no", "no means no"---I again will state that NOBODY AT ALL in this thread denied that. Women have a perfect right to refuse anything, but it ALSO SENDS A MESSAGE. That message is NO, I DON"T WANT YOU IN SAME WAY I WANTED THE OTHER GUY (and, as always, we're not talking about coercion, change in health that prevents activity, age, etc.).  Because, in the end, it's true. Maybe they have "changed" and don't want to be "wild" anymore or maybe the guy just doesn't turn her on enough to "bring out the wild" but however it got to that point, it is, by definition a situation where the woman DOESN"T WANT HER CURRENT PARTNER IN THE SAME WAY AS OTHER PARTNER. That's undeniable. And it is foolish of her not to realize that it can easily be seen as wanting the current partner LESS.


----------



## RoseAglow

Buddy400 said:


> There was a long thread along these lines not too long ago, more about men's inability to show emotions to their partner (they'd kind of like too, but they know that their women would be turned off).
> 
> My position for the first 50 years or so of my life was that, of course, women empathize with men. I just saw very little evidence that that was true.
> 
> When I read that, it seemed plausible, a light bulb went off and I understood things I hadn't before.
> 
> 
> ** Not that this will make you feel good, but I've always considered you to be one of the women on this site most emphatic to men.


Thanks for the kind words; I have a great husband and a terrific young son, empathy for them is important to me!

I recall reading that thread and others like it. While I clearly don't agree that women lack empathy overall for men, I do think that emotional weakness is a pain point for many women; I think it is actually similar to the pain point for men that we are seeing on this thread. Men lose their love for their women when there is no sex, or if there is sexual infidelity; women lose their love for their men when the men can't be trusted to protect/provide/offer stability. I mean, this is a massive generalization, but so is "women don't have empathy for men." Generally speaking, men aren't exactly empathetic to wives who aren't interested in providing sex. Everyone, male or female, struggles to behave well when their needs aren't being met.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> Against my better judgement, I am going to wade into this thread for a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, there is a HUGE difference between an affair partner and an old boyfriend, at least in real life, if not in the minds of some TAM men. This just points to the gender difference being discussed, IMO.
> 
> Someone in an affair is like someone on drugs or someone drunk. They are going to do stupid, impulsive, destructive, and yes, some wild things.
> 
> I grok that the idea is to say that someone who is very highly attracted will do all kinds of crazy things, and I actually agree with that basic premise. However, for the most part, in the course of a long marriage it is a rare group will always remain highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out. There are going to be low points in any long term relationship, although "low point" is relative. There are probably sex acts that married people used to do when they were younger that they no longer do, just from age and conditioning etc. Why personalize it?
> 
> But trying to compare marital sex vs affair sex- these are two different beasts. It's wondering why someone on meth acts differently than someone who is sober. It is comparing adrenaline in a dangerous and exciting setting vs on a normal happy Friday night.


No, you've changed the basic premise of the OP. This was NOT about "remaining highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out". Obviously relationships change.

But marital sex AT THE BEGINNING should not be less than affair sex. During the initial courtship phase, the attraction SHOULD be as high as any affair. The dopamine and all other neurotransmitters should be firing on all pistons during the early phase of the relationship. 

Sure, they may cool down later. But if you say that a couple in their first phase of relationship is not as intense as an affair, then I would say that the sexual feelings for the (in this case) husband were never as strong as the affair partner. And that says that the husband comes in second (or worse) sexually. And he deserves better than that.

So, I don't accept your reasoning here. I don't think it holds up.


----------



## RoseAglow

Buddy400 said:


> Saying it's about the "male ego" is probably a pretty good approximation.
> 
> Men want (unreasonably so) to think that their wife is more sexually attracted to him than anyone else in her life and that she finds sex with him to be the best she's ever had.
> 
> Of course, that's unlikely to be the case. We can deal with that as long as it's not thrown in our face.
> 
> I guess not throwing that in our face is an effort to avoid damaging our "frail male ego".
> 
> Why is it so bad to consider our "male ego"? It seems like the kind thing to do.
> 
> Does anyone ever complain at having to take to care not to hurt a woman's feeling unnecessarily (or a man's for that matter)?
> 
> Why so dismissive of something that's obviously so important to us (as silly as it may seem to most women)?
> 
> Yes, I think it's part of women not being able to (or wanting to) have empathy for men.


His wife didn't "throw it in his face". In fact, the OP's wife didn't even tell him about her sexual past. 

If the OP had said "This sucks and my feelings are hurt" and that was it, well, that would be it. But it's not it. It doesn't stop with "my feelings are hurt." It doesn't stop until...what? How is she supposed to solve this problem where she is no longer happy to do certain sexual acts any longer?

Oh, and if she just gives mercy or pity sex, that is EVEN WORSE according to many TAMMERs. 

What exactly is she supposed to do, to help soothe his ego? What is the resolution?


----------



## RoseAglow

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, you've changed the basic premise of the OP. This was NOT about "remaining highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out". Obviously relationships change.
> 
> But marital sex AT THE BEGINNING should not be less than affair sex. During the initial courtship phase, the attraction SHOULD be as high as any affair. The dopamine and all other neurotransmitters should be firing on all pistons during the early phase of the relationship.
> 
> Sure, they may cool down later. But if you say that a couple in their first phase of relationship is not as intense as an affair, then I would say that the sexual feelings for the (in this case) husband were never as strong as the affair partner. And that says that the husband comes in second (or worse) sexually. And he deserves better than that.
> 
> So, I don't accept your reasoning here. I don't think it holds up.


Affairs are illicit, normal relationships are not. Feelings in an affair are way, way amped up. We have a disagreement on affair sex vs normal relationship, even the beginnings of relationship.

Furthermore, unless you (general you, not specific you) are in an arranged marriage or chose to be celibate prior to marriage, you should have a great idea of what kind of sexual relationship/chemistry to expect in marriage. If it is not to your liking, you should opt out.

When I was young, I took all kinds of stupid risks sexually. I had sex at work once, once in a moving car, etc. All things that I will never do again. If my H gets it into his head that somehow this means I somehow love him less, I don't know how to help him.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> So there are some things that your wife doesn't want to do with you, and never has- yet you are still sure that she is attracted to you?
> 
> So you HAVE had things that are not available sexually to you from your wife yet your ego isn't crushed?
> 
> You didn't take it personally and you don't seem to be upset that she did things for other lovers that she is no longer interested in doing.
> 
> I am not surprised that you two have a healthy sex life. It is much for fun for both partners to go have fun with things that they both enjoy, rather than having one partner fixated and pouting on something they can't have.
> 
> I'd say we are on the same page here.


So samyeagar, who you are referencing here, DOES feel that his wife is attracted to him despite having some things denied to him. Why would that be?

Since I maintain that ACTIONS SEND MESSAGES (and I am confident that I am right on that), I would therefore speculate that Mrs. Samyeagar send enough messages through OTHER actions that is overwhelms the negative message sent by her refusal. 

This is the key. If there are going to be things not sexually available to him that were available to other partners, the wife is obviously sending a message through her actions. If she is aware of it, and is able to counter that message through OTHER actions that counterbalance the negative message, then this one issue may not be final word the husband receives on his desirability to his wife. If enough OTHER positive actions exist, then he can still feel like he's really the one that turns his wife on.

However, generally this is NOT the case. Instead, we hear story after story here in TAM about a wife who was formerly "wild" and "uninhibited" sexually who is now very "vanilla" with her husband---even in the very early stages of their relationship. It is hard not to interpret that in any other way besides that she just doesn't desire him as much sexually as other men, and she compromised on the sexual part for other aspects she may value. However, NO man wants to feel like he's second place for his wife in her desires.


----------



## Fozzy

RoseAglow said:


> Thanks for the kind words; I have a great husband and a terrific young son, empathy for them is important to me!
> 
> I recall reading that thread and others like it. While I clearly don't agree that women lack empathy overall for men, *I do think that emotional weakness is a pain point for many women*; * I think it is actually similar to the pain point for men that we are seeing on this thread. * *Men lose their love for their women when there is no sex, or if there is sexual infidelity; women lose their love for their men when the men can't be trusted to protect/provide/offer stability.* I mean, this is a massive generalization, but so is "women don't have empathy for men." Generally speaking, men aren't exactly empathetic to wives who aren't interested in providing sex. Everyone, male or female, struggles to behave well when their needs aren't being met.


Agree bigly. My wife emotionally shut down completely when I was fighting depression. I was on my own. I shut down on her similarly when she shut down on me sexually. We were both on our own.


----------



## RoseAglow

What kind of "other actions" do you think Ms SY is providing? 

Why do you think that it's Ms SY's unknown other actions that make the difference- espeically when SY himself discussed his wife's actions such as gushing over other men in front of him in ways that she does NOT gush over him? 

I mean, it sounds like he should have every reason to think that she is not into him, right? By your definitions, he should be feeling like totally ****. He should feel his wife has preferred other men, but a long shot, using your parameters.

Yet, he is convinced that she is very into him (and I believe him!). 

I suspect it is because SY has a stronger ego. He is not taking his wife's "refusal" to do some things personally- it's not even really a refusal, because he isn't making a big deal of it or asking. They are able to have a happy sex life that doesn't include those things.

The OP never said that his wife wasn't giving him sex; it just said that she wasn't a party girl anymore and his male ego was hurt. 

On the TAM threads, yes, we often see that a wild child has calmed down. That is a normal path. Enthusiastic vanilla sex is still enthusiastic sex. In fact, depending on the prior acts (like MFM threesomes) vanilla may be much more intimate.




Wolfman1968 said:


> So samyeagar, who you are referencing here, DOES feel that his wife is attracted to him despite having some things denied to him. Why would that be?
> 
> Since I maintain that ACTIONS SEND MESSAGES (and I am confident that I am right on that), I would therefore speculate that Mrs. Samyeagar send enough messages through OTHER actions that is overwhelms the negative message sent by her refusal.
> 
> This is the key. If there are going to be things not sexually available to him that were available to other partners, the wife is obviously sending a message through her actions. If she is aware of it, and is able to counter that message through OTHER actions that counterbalance the negative message, then this one issue may not be final word the husband receives on his desirability to his wife. If enough OTHER positive actions exist, then he can still feel like he's really the one that turns his wife on.
> 
> However, generally this is NOT the case. Instead, we hear story after story here in TAM about a wife who was formerly "wild" and "uninhibited" sexually who is now very "vanilla" with her husband---even in the very early stages of their relationship. It is hard not to interpret that in any other way besides that she just doesn't desire him as much sexually as other men, and she compromised on the sexual part for other aspects she may value. However, NO man wants to feel like he's second place for his wife in her desires.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> Affairs are illicit, normal relationships are not. Feelings in an affair are way, way amped up. We have a disagreement on affair sex vs normal relationship, even the beginnings of relationship.
> 
> *Furthermore, unless you (general you, not specific you) are in an arranged marriage or chose to be celibate prior to marriage, you should have a great idea of what kind of sexual relationship/chemistry to expect in marriage. If it is not to your liking, you should opt out.*
> 
> When I was young, I took all kinds of stupid risks sexually. I had sex at work once, once in a moving car, etc. All things that I will never do again. If my H gets it into his head that somehow this means I somehow love him less, I don't know how to help him.



Well, you (a husband in general) can get an ideal of what kind of sexual activity she is up for, and if that's all you know about her, you may believe that this is her wildest. But if you find out that in the past she could be driven by desire to push the envelope even further, then it will certainly send the message that she doesn't desire you as much. The message may or may not reflect her true feelings inside, but that IS the message being sent. Just having sex before marriage doesn't guarantee that you would be aware of her greater potential with other guys, so, no, I don't agree with your premise that you would know that unless it was specifically revealed. And in your post you are suggesting he "should opt out" if he doesn't like that situation, but other posters here have said or implied that threat of breaking the relationship would be "pressuring" her to do the actions that are off the table. So what is the honorable path for him if he's not happy with getting the second-rate desire from his partner?

And, yes, I do indeed disagree with you the intensity of feelings at the beginning of a relationship. I have had both the "mediocre/bad" levels of intimacy from the ex even at the start (i.e., started at below average and went down from there), and high adrenaline super-intense enthusiasm at the start of the relationship with the current Mrs. Wolfman, so I know that is is possible to have the "meth-addition" level of intensity even with a marital relationship at the beginning. I've experienced both situations. I wouldn't settle for anything less than a super-intense sexual relationship now, and I don't think any guy should. If he doesn't have that sort of intensity at the beginning of the relationship, I think he ought to move on to someone he will have better chemistry with.


----------



## RoseAglow

Married but Happy said:


> If my wife isn't enthusiastic about me and being with me, then why would she be my wife, and why would I want her as my wife? *She may not do everything with me she did with someone else (but as far as I know, she does), but as long as what she does is with passion for me, I don't really care.*


This has been fun, but MBH just nailed it for me above. And I am so glad that it is a male who said it!


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> What kind of "other actions" do you think Ms SY is providing?
> 
> Why do you think that it's Ms SY's unknown other actions that make the difference- espeically when SY himself discussed his wife's actions such as gushing over other men in front of him in ways that she does NOT gush over him?
> 
> I mean, it sounds like he should have every reason to think that she is not into him, right? By your definitions, he should be feeling like totally ****. He should feel his wife has preferred other men, but a long shot, using your parameters.
> 
> Yet, he is convinced that she is very into him (and I believe him!).
> 
> I suspect it is because SY has a stronger ego. He is not taking his wife's "refusal" to do some things personally- it's not even really a refusal, because he isn't making a big deal of it or asking. They are able to have a happy sex life that doesn't include those things.
> 
> The OP never said that his wife wasn't giving him sex; it just said that she wasn't a party girl anymore and his male ego was hurt.
> 
> On the TAM threads, yes, we often see that a wild child has calmed down. That is a normal path. Enthusiastic vanilla sex is still enthusiastic sex. In fact, depending on the prior acts (like MFM threesomes) vanilla may be much more intimate.



Well, I don't know what "other actions" Mrs. SY is doing to make him feel desired in the bedroom. But he does feel desired, and I also believe him. 

There's no way for me to know what they do in the bedroom. Maybe he will say, maybe not. It's probably classier that he not say.
It doesn't even have to be a "taboo" type thing. For example, if she says, "no, I won't do action X any more even though I did it in the past", that certainly sends a negative message about how she feels sexually. It does. BUT, (and I'm just making up examples, as I have no idea of their life) if she does things like plan special sexual rendezvouses, or call him at work with sexually suggestive phone calls, or meets him in sexy lingerie the moment he walks in the door home and guides him straight into a tub surrounded with candles, or whatever, she will be demonstrating ACTIONS THAT SEND POSITIVE MESSAGES about the sexual attraction that she feels for him. These positive messages through action will counterbalance and overwhelm the sole negative message he gets from a denied activity. 

The key is that she has to demonstrate (as a previous poster worded it) "enthusiastic engagement" through actions. You can't get around the fact that a refusal can FEEL like a rejection and certainly sends a negative message. But if the rest of the messages are super-enthusiastic positively, then the negative message is not the last word on his desirability for her.


----------



## RoseAglow

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, you (a husband in general) can get an ideal of what kind of sexual activity she is up for, and if that's all you know about her, you may believe that this is her wildest. But if you find out that in the past she could be driven by desire to push the envelope even further, then it will certainly send the message that she doesn't desire you as much. The message may or may not reflect her true feelings inside, but that IS the message being sent. Just having sex before marriage doesn't guarantee that you would be aware of her greater potential with other guys, so, no, I don't agree with your premise that you would know that unless it was specifically revealed. And in your post you are suggesting he "should opt out" if he doesn't like that situation, but other posters here have said or implied that threat of breaking the relationship would be "pressuring" her to do the actions that are off the table. So what is the honorable path for him if he's not happy with getting the second-rate desire from his partner?


Yes, obviously, if you have an unsatisfactory sex life before marriage, you should not get married. That is not "pressuring her", that is realizing incompatibility and releasing both of you from misery. In fact, read TAM long enough and you will see that often the recommendation for sexless young marriages (especially without children) is immediate divorce. 

This is the whole point: the past does not matter. What matters is your sex life now and where it is likely to go in the future. What point is there in wondering about past or future potential partners? Is she a good partner for your now? 




> And, yes, I do indeed disagree with you the intensity of feelings at the beginning of a relationship. I have had both the "mediocre/bad" levels of intimacy from the ex even at the start (i.e., started at below average and went down from there), and high adrenaline super-intense enthusiasm at the start of the relationship with the current Mrs. Wolfman, so I know that is is possible to have the "meth-addition" level of intensity even with a marital relationship at the beginning. I've experienced both situations. *I wouldn't settle for anything less than a super-intense sexual relationship now, and I don't think any guy should. If he doesn't have that sort of intensity at the beginning of the relationship, I think he ought to move on to someone he will have better chemistry with.*


We disagree on many things, but on the bold, we agree! I am glad that you have found happiness with your current Mrs. W.


----------



## MAJDEATH

How about we go the other way with this thread topic. In a previous relationship, my W used to stick things up her guy's rear, by request:moon:. I won't be asking her to do that for me anytime soon.


----------



## 269370

RoseAglow said:


> So again, this basically reduces sex acts to a dollar amount, but let's play anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that 5 years ago, Grandma gave her other children $100. She has not given them any more money since that time.
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Grandma gave Bobby $5. We don't know why she only gave Bobby $5 and not $100. However, we do know that Grandma has set up her bank account so that no other kids get any more money from her, ever, and Bobby is set up to get $5 weekly for the next 20+ years . In addition, Bobby lives in Grandma's rental house and Grandma works at the local college and so Bobby is able to go for free.
> 
> 
> 
> So even though Bobby didn't get the exact dollar amount of the other grandkids, he is getting much more from Grandma.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it suck for everyone if Bobby just focused on that silly $100?




Does Grandma also keep Bobby in a basement when he’s not in College? Im becoming increasingly concerned about grandma and her control issues 

https://youtu.be/7rgSnm2-2ps


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## 269370

Randy Lafever said:


> Can we just drop the analogies and admit we all want Grandma and Bobby to hook up?



Yes but in which acts. She’s more frail now and not in her 60s anymore to be suspended from the chandelier to play Snakes & Ladders with Bobby.

https://www.twinkl.co.uk/resource/t...menstrual-cycle-snakes-and-ladders-board-game


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## 269370

RoseAglow said:


> I haven't read all 200 pages of this thread. But the OP is about getting a sexual act or a few acts that a wife used to do, but no longer wants to do.
> 
> 
> 
> it is not about a sexless marriage nor is it about a wife who is not into sex with her H- she is just not into certain specific acts.
> 
> 
> 
> The OP clearly states several times that this is an Ego issue for him- "the male ego at work", to be precise.
> 
> 
> 
> It is about HIM being "cheated" out of his wife's wild past, a line of thought which has been echoed throughout the posts I've read, including recent posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I sincerely hope that this OP was able to shut off the mind movies and has since been able to establish a happy and healthy sex life with his wife.




I’m just trying to understand this (haven’t read the whole thread): who talks about what one did or didn’t do with previous partners? This doesn’t seem like something that should be discussed in the first place.
If you don’t know what your wife or husband did previously, then this ‘problem’ goes away by itself.

As long as the wife doesn’t advertise everywhere how many times she had anal every Tuesday with her previous lovers etc. Same if the husband always keeps talking how many times he took his previous love of his life to Maldives etc. Unfortunately (or fortunately), people did have a life previously but this can be turned into something positive going forward.

If you are unlucky and find out about all the kinky stuff your wife did with someone else but not with you then I don’t think it’s about ticking off boxes; it’s about finding out and trying to fix a marriage that may be ailing. If she’s not into it with you, sexually, you won’t get her to do anything by trying to guilt her into it. It’s one of the most off-putting things for women. And yes, that could be an empathy issue or it could be an entitled husband; it will be case specific. Generalising this issue is kind of immature in itself.

What this tells me more than anything else though is that things are not as simple as LD versus HD. Many things can affect a marriage and sex life and if people are unable to communicate then the chance to fix it is really low.



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## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> RoseAglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't read all 200 pages of this thread. But the OP is about getting a sexual act or a few acts that a wife used to do, but no longer wants to do.
> 
> 
> 
> it is not about a sexless marriage nor is it about a wife who is not into sex with her H- she is just not into certain specific acts.
> 
> 
> 
> The OP clearly states several times that this is an Ego issue for him- "the male ego at work", to be precise.
> 
> 
> 
> It is about HIM being "cheated" out of his wife's wild past, a line of thought which has been echoed throughout the posts I've read, including recent posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I sincerely hope that this OP was able to shut off the mind movies and has since been able to establish a happy and healthy sex life with his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m just trying to understand this (haven’t read the whole thread): who talks about what one did or didn’t do with previous partners? This doesn’t seem like something that should be discussed in the first place.
> If you don’t know what your wife or husband did previously, then this ‘problem’ goes away by itself.
> 
> As long as the wife doesn’t advertise everywhere how many times she had anal every Tuesday with her previous lovers etc. Same if the husband always keeps talking how many times he took his previous love of his life to Maldives etc. Unfortunately (or fortunately), people did have a life previously but this can be turned into something positive going forward.
> 
> If you are unlucky and find out about all the kinky stuff your wife did with someone else but not with you then I don’t think it’s about ticking off boxes; it’s about finding out and trying to fix a marriage that may be ailing. If she’s not into it with you, sexually, you won’t get her to do anything by trying to guilt her into it. It’s one of the most off-putting things for women. And yes, that could be an empathy issue or it could be an entitled husband; it will be case specific. Generalising this issue is kind of immature in itself.
> 
> What this tells me more than anything else though is that things are not as simple as LD versus HD. Many things can affect a marriage and sex life and if people are unable to communicate then the chance to fix it is really low.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people (usually males) who have said on this forum they need to know the **nitty gritty details** of a partner's sexual past and that if they aren't told these details before marriage, it's a heinous crime worthy of divorce.


----------



## Randy Lafever

Livvie said:


> Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people (usually males) who have said on this forum they need to know the **nitty gritty details** of a partner's sexual past and that if they aren't told these details before marriage, it's a heinous crime worthy of divorce.


If you buy a car, you want to know what it's been up to before you. Same thing with a woman. Some things might not be a dealbreaker, but a man wants to know what he's getting into.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> This topic has confused me for years at TAM, because according to several men at TAM it is somehow normal to be this way (whiny and entitled). Yet no man I’ve ever met in person or dated or married ever said such entitled whiny things to me. None have ever implied that if I did it before I would be expected to do it now. None have ever implied that I must love someone more if I did it for them but not him. None have ever whined “but he got something I didn’t”.
> 
> The common theme for these guys seems to be the feeling that their woman just isn’t into them like she was with some other guy and they are pissed off about that. So I think the men who are saying this have experienced that feeling - - and they are very vocal about their hurt feelings so when they respond on these threads they do it with long long answers and lots of “reasons”for why they feel this way. Thus it looks like this is common for men.
> 
> But then you have mature men who don’t feel insecure, whiny and entitled like Personal, who is saying none of this applies to him. His voice sounds more like the men I’ve known and been with. But he gets drowned out by the loud and insecure voices.
> 
> I wish these guys would realize what they are really saying: I’m insecure and jealous. Pure and simple. If they could just accept that these are their own feelings instead of trying to make their feelings be their wife’s fault somehow, they would see why these arguments about upholding their whiny entitled feelings are pointless. Again, all they are really saying is I’m insecure and jealous. Put 1,000 words behind it and it doesn’t change, they are still saying the same thing.


This is very, very true but not the whole story. The rest of the story may include things like how that feels to her that the only measure of love is a menu of sex acts.


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people (usually males) who have said on this forum they need to know the **nitty gritty details** of a partner's sexual past and that if they aren't told these details before marriage, it's a heinous crime worthy of divorce.



Yeah...no I don’t think its necessary to know, unless I decide to be a bit masochistic. You pick your woman, as she is now, in time, if you are happy now, who cares what she did before? A woman is not a car that runs up ‘sex mileage’ and looses value if she had an active past.
However if she’s not having sex with you, then it’s a different matter.

The way some of the posts came across (from women) was that all men (except a select few) were painted with the same brush as whiny and insecure. Me no like it. 
There are many entitled women too 



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## Randy Lafever

inmyprime said:


> A woman is not a car that runs up ‘sex mileage’ and looses value if she had an active past.
> However if she’s not having sex with you, then it’s a different matter.


Some men feel otherwise. And while we may not agree, we can't discount their feelings. They are real and have an impact on their relationships.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Randy Lafever said:


> Right. I can never reveal my mental illness to my wife, nor can I explain that it is the reason for so many of the things she finds unsatisfactory about me, because to expose weakness is the worst thing I could do.


In all seriousness, if you cannot be yourself with her, warts and all, why do you want to be married to her?


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## Randy Lafever

NobodySpecial said:


> In all seriousness, if you cannot be yourself with her, warts and all, why do you want to be married to her?


I never said I did want to be married to her. But I am.


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## NJ2

Wow, Ive read some but not all of this thread. I had one partner before h -and we were young and vanilla. It seemed to really bother H about the number of times he assumes I had sex with the first bf - he never asked what we did. He on the other hand had 8-10 one night stands and 1- 6 mon relationship before me. So much less sex but much more variety. I have no idea what he did with any of them and he would never tell me any details.

I did some things with H early on that I would not do again- they were a one and done. H and I did plenty of stuff during the beginnings or R when we were both experiencing hysterical bonding. Hysterical bonding is now over (but lasted an amazing 3 years) and I dont have the same HD to continue in that fashion- meaning frequency and spur of the moment places. Age and health can factor in, so can even mild depression or other mental illness. I did ask him once if there was anything he wanted to do that we hadnt - if I'm his only then i should be willing to within reason. He didnt say there was.


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## Livvie

Randy Lafever said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people (usually males) who have said on this forum they need to know the **nitty gritty details** of a partner's sexual past and that if they aren't told these details before marriage, it's a heinous crime worthy of divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> If you buy a car, you want to know what it's been up to before you. Same thing with a woman. Some things might not be a dealbreaker, but a man wants to know what he's getting into.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I find this post absolutely disgusting.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Livvie said:


> Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people (usually males) who have said on this forum they need to know the **nitty gritty details** of a partner's sexual past and that if they aren't told these details before marriage, it's a heinous crime *worthy of divorce*.


Except it does not seem to be worthy of divorce. It seems to be worthy of whining about it and feeling bad/rejected/unloved. It is ok for her to FEEL these things and he will remain with her, as long as she puts out for him the way he feels he put out for others.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Randy Lafever said:


> I never said I did want to be married to her. But I am.


Let me re-frame that. If the proverbial ONE does not feel close,loved and whatever with their wife, but kind of skips that part when discussing the affect that her going all super nymph with someone else affects him, would you say that might be putting the cart before the horse?


----------



## Buddy400

RoseAglow said:


> His wife didn't "throw it in his face". In fact, the OP's wife didn't even tell him about her sexual past.
> 
> If the OP had said "This sucks and my feelings are hurt" and that was it, well, that would be it. But it's not it. It doesn't stop with "my feelings are hurt." It doesn't stop until...what? How is she supposed to solve this problem where she is no longer happy to do certain sexual acts any longer?
> 
> Oh, and if she just gives mercy or pity sex, that is EVEN WORSE according to many TAMMERs.
> 
> What exactly is she supposed to do, to help soothe his ego? *What is the resolution?*


I'm afraid there probably isn't one. The best that could probably happen would be that the wife give an explanation (hopefully true) that is more satisfactory (to him) than "I was a different person then".

I don't think this thread is about demanding sexual acts from one's partner as it is explaining why this situation so distresses men.

My use of "throwing it in his face" was imperfect and distracted from my main question which was, "what's so bad about taking the 'fragile male ego' into account?"

Women are often outraged when it is suggested that they take the male ego into account. Why? 

I was reading a review of a book for women on how to have a successful marriage when she makes more money (which seems relevant when this is happening more and more these days). One of her 10 points was about "tending to the male ego". The comments were full of women that were offended by the suggestion that they should take their spouse's feelings into account. 

Why? If there was a book for SAHDs talking about how the man might best cope with his wife's uneasiness over not being at home with her baby, would comments from men be filled with scorn for the women that required this silly "coddling"?


----------



## samyeagar

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, I don't know what "other actions" Mrs. SY is doing to make him feel desired in the bedroom. But he does feel desired, and I also believe him.
> 
> There's no way for me to know what they do in the bedroom. Maybe he will say, maybe not. It's probably classier that he not say.
> It doesn't even have to be a "taboo" type thing. For example, if she says, "no, I won't do action X any more even though I did it in the past", that certainly sends a negative message about how she feels sexually. It does. BUT, (and I'm just making up examples, as I have no idea of their life) if she does things like plan special sexual rendezvouses, or call him at work with sexually suggestive phone calls, or meets him in sexy lingerie the moment he walks in the door home and guides him straight into a tub surrounded with candles, or whatever, she will be demonstrating ACTIONS THAT SEND POSITIVE MESSAGES about the sexual attraction that she feels for him. These positive messages through action will counterbalance and overwhelm the sole negative message he gets from a denied activity.
> 
> The key is that she has to demonstrate (as a previous poster worded it) "enthusiastic engagement" through actions. You can't get around the fact that a refusal can FEEL like a rejection and certainly sends a negative message. But if the rest of the messages are super-enthusiastic positively, then the negative message is not the last word on his desirability for her.


While there are things that are off the table, most of them things I have no real interest in myself, and those that I did were only mild interest, it really comes down to enthusiastic engagement. She does actively pursue sex with me, she initiates regularly. I can't think of much of anything that I have actually asked for, because we do communicate about sex, and she knows what I like and enthusiastically does it on her own volition. There is never any rejection, and while frequency is not what it was when we first got together, the quality, desire, and passion if anything has increased.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I'm afraid there probably isn't one. The best that could probably happen would be that the wife give an explanation (hopefully true) that is more satisfactory (to him) than "I was a different person then".
> 
> I don't think this thread is about demanding sexual acts from one's partner as it is explaining why this situation so distresses men.
> 
> My use of "throwing it in his face" was imperfect and distracted from my main question which was, "what's so bad about taking the 'fragile male ego' into account?"
> 
> Women are often outraged when it is suggested that they take the male ego into account. Why?
> 
> I was reading a review of a book for women on how to have a successful marriage when she makes more money (which seems relevant when this is happening more and more these days). One of her 10 points was about "tending to the male ego". The comments were full of women that were offended by the suggestion that they should take their spouse's feelings into account.


Taking the feelings of a grown human in partnership is wonderful. Appeasing a man-child's delicate ego is not. This was a very old school mode of thinking in marriage once upon a time that men are fragile and need to have their egos stroked by their wives. Personally, I will pass. I know many, many men whose egos are not so fragile and requiring of tending. They have feelings like everyone else. The idea that it is fundamentally male to have a delicate ego in need of stroking is just an excuse to get comfortable not stretching oneself to attain the self assurance that would work wonders.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Taking the feelings of a grown human in partnership is wonderful. Appeasing a man-child's delicate ego is not. This was a very old school mode of thinking in marriage once upon a time that men are fragile and need to have their egos stroked by their wives. Personally, I will pass. I know many, many men whose egos are not so fragile and requiring of tending. They have feelings like everyone else. The idea that it is fundamentally male to have a delicate ego in need of stroking is just an excuse to get comfortable not stretching oneself to attain the self assurance that would work wonders.


There is a difference between not coddling, and flat out dismissing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> There is a difference between not coddling, and flat out dismissing.


I don't believe that is useful when the issue is one of fragile self esteem. No one can do anything about someone else' self esteem.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't believe that is useful when the issue is one of fragile self esteem. No one can do anything about someone else' self esteem.


Oh, I think there is plenty that people can do to affect anothers' self esteem.


----------



## personofinterest

I keep hearing we cannot discount someone's feelings. Why not? We do it all the time when those feelings are irrational. I mean, when you're 6 year old thinks there is a monster in the closet, do you say, "Yes, you're right, that is a valid feeling"? No. Some feelings are self-absorbed and destructive. You can understand them, but you don't validate them. Because they are not healthy.

Obsessing over what your wife did with Bob 10 years ago and deciding she doesn't love you because she won't do it with you is unhealthy and destructive to the relationship.


----------



## Knips

Letting the husband know that bob got all the fun 10 years ago and dear loving husband got nothing is also unhealthy for the marriage. Some things better stay in the past.


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## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Oh, I think there is plenty that people can do to affect anothers' self esteem.


Then it is not very healthy _self _esteem. Obviously, no one lives in a bubble and there are, naturally, ebbs and flows. But a healthy self image actually can't be permanently damaged by others. Nor can it be irrationally elevated by things like phony praise. I would go so far as to venture that a LOT of difficulties on this forum are a result from absorbing others' actions and words unhealthily. I am very empathetic to the natural ebbs and flows of security, as we all have. Gee I wonder if I did this wrong and it makes me feel bad is normal introspection, and if it is determined that wrong was done, change or remedy will follow. Attending to the fragile male ego, particularly by using sexual weights and measures, I am not so down with. It seems like a totally unwinnable challenge since it won't do anything to improve the self image in the long run at all. When one does not have a strong self image, that kind of validation needs to be escalated to be as useful as smaller measures formerly were. For example, a person who views themselves as not very attractive may have found getting married and laid at all a big boon to his ego where now she did it with someone else and not me is a big blow.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> I keep hearing we cannot discount someone's feelings. Why not? We do it all the time when those feelings are irrational. I mean, when you're 6 year old thinks there is a monster in the closet, do you say, "Yes, you're right, that is a valid feeling"? No. Some feelings are self-absorbed and destructive. You can understand them, but you don't validate them. Because they are not healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> Obsessing over what your wife did with Bob 10 years ago and deciding she doesn't love you because she won't do it with you is unhealthy and destructive to the relationship.




Depends what we are talking about here. Disregarding Bob for now completely: is it unreasonable or ‘irrational’ to feel unfulfilled or perhaps wonder if something wrong if your wife stops wanting to engage with you sexually? Is one ‘entitled’ and ‘selfish’ to want your wife to want you back?
People get hung up on phrasing but it all comes down to the same thing: does she desire you back?
And what acts are we talking about? Who decides which acts are reasonable or unreasonable?
If the sex situation sucks, it sucks, regardless what wife did with Bob, Peter and Roger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Randy Lafever

Livvie said:


> Honestly, I find this post absolutely disgusting.


Well I'm certainly not endorsing the point of view, but the car analogy might make it easier for women to get into the frame of mind the men are in.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Randy Lafever said:


> Well I'm certainly not endorsing the point of view, but the car analogy might make it easier for women to get into the frame of mind the men are in.


The point of view is not correct but somehow useful to the frame of mind? Please explain.


----------



## 269370

Randy Lafever said:


> Well I'm certainly not endorsing the point of view, but the car analogy might make it easier for women to get into the frame of mind the men are in.




Time to take wife to the annual MOT service, open her boot, add some oil and blow up those flat tyres of hers then 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Randy Lafever

NobodySpecial said:


> The point of view is not correct but somehow useful to the frame of mind? Please explain.


Women in this thread either seem unwilling or unable to wrap their heads around why this is important to some men. I was merely using an analogy of how the male mind might be looking at the situation, trying to help them.


----------



## personofinterest

Knips said:


> Letting the husband know that bob got all the fun 10 years ago and dear loving husband got nothing is also unhealthy for the marriage. Some things better stay in the past.


Then hubby shouldn't be ASKING


----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> Depends what we are talking about here. Disregarding Bob for now completely: is it unreasonable or ‘irrational’ to feel unfulfilled or perhaps wonder if something wrong if your wife stops wanting to engage with you sexually? Is one ‘entitled’ and ‘selfish’ to want your wife to want you back?
> People get hung up on phrasing but it all comes down to the same thing: does she desire you back?
> And what acts are we talking about? Who decides which acts are reasonable or unreasonable?
> If the sex situation sucks, it sucks, regardless what wife did with Bob, Peter and Roger.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If that were the actual thread topic, I would agree. It is not.

The topic is that hubby for some reason knows all about every sex act wife has done with everyone else and measures her love negatively if she won't give him everything on this list.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Then hubby shouldn't be ASKING


Aye, and there's the rub.

The talks my wife and I had about sex when our relationship was just starting never involved me asking anything about details. Over time, situations caused various things to come up, both intentionally on her part, and unintentionally through other sources. I never wanted to know the things that I know. It is difficult sometimes to keep the past the past no matter how badly one wants to, and how hard one tries, but when the past is broad and involves a lot of people currently in the present, keeping it in the past becomes a huge task.


----------



## manwithnoname

personofinterest said:


> If that were the actual thread topic, I would agree. It is not.
> 
> The topic is that hubby for some reason knows all about every sex act wife has done with everyone else and measures her love negatively if she won't give him everything on this list.


If she doesn't desire to do those things anymore, with anyone, then fine. 

If she loved doing a particular act with Bob, and refused to do the same with her husband, but then admitted she would like to do that particular act again with Bob, then this may very well upset the husband.

Can you see how that might be upsetting?


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> I’m just trying to understand this (haven’t read the whole thread): who talks about what one did or didn’t do with previous partners? This doesn’t seem like something that should be discussed in the first place.
> If you don’t know what your wife or husband did previously, then this ‘problem’ goes away by itself.


I agree that this scenario is very unlikely to actually occur.

It's just a hypothetical. But there are things to be learned from thinking about hypothetical questions.


----------



## Knips

personofinterest said:


> Knips said:
> 
> 
> 
> Letting the husband know that bob got all the fun 10 years ago and dear loving husband got nothing is also unhealthy for the marriage. Some things better stay in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Then hubby shouldn't be ASKING
Click to expand...

 Have you read the story from the OP? Hubby didn't asked. It was a girlfriend from the wife who said the wife was rather kinky. After that the confessions followed. As i said, some things happened in the past better stay in the past.


----------



## personofinterest

> If she loved doing a particular act with Bob, and refused to do the same with her husband, but then admitted she would like to do that particular act again with Bob, then this may very well upset the husband.


What kind of idiot wife would say this?????


----------



## Buddy400

RoseAglow said:


> Dude, there is a HUGE difference between an affair partner and an old boyfriend, at least in real life, if not in the minds of some TAM men. This just points to the gender difference being discussed, IMO.


I've been thinking about this "affair partner vs previous partner" thought experiment.

If a wife never gave oral (it's amazing how I have to ponder how to word this so as to try to avoid the implication that there is ever any reason that a woman ever engages in a sex act other than because she just wants it for herself, but the term "gave oral" seems pretty routine) to her husband but not only gave oral to her AP but it was one-way and she swallowed, does that seem to be an indicator of her being more attracted to her AP than her husband? 

I understand that infidelity is bad, but what would the specific act(s) engaged in matter? It seems that a husband in this position would (as far as the sex act itself goes) just be insecure and whining and that any reference to what she did for her AP but not him was not called for and indicative of nothing at all. So, he's be justified in being upset with the infidelity but not the act, right?

The "him not me" situation (on it's own) is the same as with a previous lover except that the time difference with a previous partner allows in reasons such as health, changing tastes. etc..


----------



## manwithnoname

personofinterest said:


> What kind of idiot wife would say this?????


Not necessarily admitting directly to the husband, he could have found out many different ways.

Just curious if you can see how a husband would be upset by this.


----------



## Knips

Oh honey, never i would do anal with you, but if Bob would ask... immediately... 🤣 That is asking for a divorce. But wife could saved the conversation and say: Honey Bob could do anal with me because his penis was tiny, Honey you're penis is too big for anal and the pleasure you give me with you're penis is so high i really don't desire anal stimulation.


----------



## Anastasia6

In this case it isn't the husband gets nothing. The husband gets sex and even says she's plenty bendy. But no that isn't good enough it must be certain kinds of sex. 

People mature grow and change. We have our own identities. We are off the shelf toys. There are lots of things I did for previous bf that I don't do for my husband.

Let's see I used to pretend to be dumber than I am. Because Mensa isn't sexy. I used to pretend not to be good at billiards, but I kick my husbands ass. 

You know why I now don't do that and stopped doing it before we got married. Because I love and trust him more than any man I have ever met. He actually had the self esteem to be ok married to a smarter woman.

You ever think she really is a different person. Maybe she doesn't want to do it. Maybe she stupidly loves and trusts that you can love her without these things. Or maybe she doesn't understand that a man can't feel loved without anal? And remember she didn't just tell him he pulled it out. And now he can't handle it because he believes his love life while active could be better. 

Sometimes this sites just makes me despise most of mankind. It always makes me ecstatic to be married to my husband with a healthy self esteem and a generous lover who sees women in more than one dimension.


----------



## oldtruck

RoseAglow said:


> Against my better judgement, I am going to wade into this thread for a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, there is a HUGE difference between an affair partner and an old boyfriend, at least in real life, if not in the minds of some TAM men. This just points to the gender difference being discussed, IMO.
> 
> Someone in an affair is like someone on drugs or someone drunk. They are going to do stupid, impulsive, destructive, and yes, some wild things.
> 
> I grok that the idea is to say that someone who is very highly attracted will do all kinds of crazy things, and I actually agree with that basic premise. However, for the most part, in the course of a long marriage it is a rare group will always remain highly, highly attracted and have lots of great sex every month, day in and day out. There are going to be low points in any long term relationship, although "low point" is relative. There are probably sex acts that married people used to do when they were younger that they no longer do, just from age and conditioning etc. Why personalize it?
> 
> But trying to compare marital sex vs affair sex- these are two different beasts. It's wondering why someone on meth acts differently than someone who is sober. It is comparing adrenaline in a dangerous and exciting setting vs on a normal happy Friday night.
> 
> Yet- here is the thing. As a woman reading this thread, I am not at all surprised that there is a comparison being made between a BH and his WW and a man who is not getting the same sexual acts from his wife that she did when she was younger.
> 
> It is the same basic complaint: the wife is CHEATING the man out of something, he is being cheated out of sexual fidelity and sexual behaviors. Some men feel cheated out of something that was freely given to someone else, long before he was in the picture.
> 
> So I do believe that many times the man feels as if his wife has betrayed him, that she has wronged him, simply by not wanting to do anal (as an example) again.
> 
> This is why, as a woman, I do find this thread distasteful.
> 
> 
> 
> It can only hurt the husband if he personalizes it. Again, a cheating wife is NOT the same as a wife who, for whatever reason, is no longer up for the same sexual acts.
> 
> I can feel empathy for someone, for example, who used to get blow jobs from his wife, but she is no longer interested. I can feel a TON of empathy for someone is no longer getting any sex- and sadly, we see this a lot on TAM from both men and women. Where I lose empathy is on the "but she did it for him!" add-on.
> 
> "I really miss BJs" is a different message than "You won't give me BJs but you gave them to Tom!" The former is a statement of how one feels now; the latter is a tantrum. One is a statement with a problem to be fixed; the other is an implied entitlement, a cry that the man is cheated out of something that his wife, should by all rights, give to him since she gave it to others.
> 
> ETA: Also, I do understand that rejection hurts. I've been rejected in my marriage at times (and I've done some rejecting.) At one point we went months without sex, and I did think back to something my H said, that he and his first wife once went 4 months without having sex. It didn't mean much though, other than I knew he had it in him to go for quite some time. We were in a low point in our marriage, hopefully our lowest. Thankfully we got past it; our marriage and sex life are much, much improved since then.
> 
> We all get that rejection sucks, some of us more than others.
> 
> My issue is that "You did it for him but not for me!" is more than rejection; it is hurt ego. The first poster even states flat out that it is a hit to the ego. And somehow, the fact that a woman won't suck your **** is somehow a hit against you that she should even care about.
> 
> So one more time: "Our sex life sucks and we need to improve it" is a problem we can solve together.
> 
> "You sucked Tom's **** but you won't suck mine!!" is a ego-driven complaint. It is trying to solve the problem by making me feel guilty, it is trying to make me the bad one who is somehow wronging you.
> 
> This is my perspective on it and I have to think that I am not the only woman (or even man) who thinks this way.



You miss a key fact.

It is not that a wife did "anal" (used for example) with her previous BF's and will not
do it with her husband.

It is the husband that never got to do anal. He always wanted to try it. His wife
knows that her husband never got "anal" when he was single. Yet she has no
empathy for her husband will never get to try "anal". There is no offer to do it
few times or once a year, nothing.


This sends the message to the husband that the old BF's were hotter than him
that is why his wife gave them "anal".

Same message is sent to the BH that the WW desired the OM more than him
because she will not do things she for her BH that she willingly did for her OM.

"BH you are the beta drone to be my provider. You do not excite me enough to
have porn star sex with you. I do not have to make the extra effort with sex to
keep you married to me.


----------



## Randy Lafever

anastasia6 said:


> Sometimes this sites just makes me despise most of mankind. It always makes me ecstatic to be married to my husband with a healthy self esteem and a generous lover who sees women in more than one dimension.


What would you say if we told you it was all an elaborate hoax on his part to make you appreciate him? The entire board, every post?


----------



## Knips

But it could be other things. Maybe medical things. Maybe the wife has anal fistulas and is ashamed to tell that to the husband.


----------



## oldtruck

azimuth said:


> It's not "hateful" it's total bewilderment that someone would act this way. As a woman I'm not turned on by a man demanding certain sexual acts from me, with the only impetus being that I did them with someone else, therefore they must be done with him as well. That makes me feel like property. And if a guy said "the damage is done" (like someone said above) and he would leave the marriage or end the relationship I would say good riddance.
> 
> Maybe the men feel disappointment in their own sexual skill and are taking it out on the wife. Instead of throwing a toddler tantrum about her past, if the husband would just try the act, or playfully talk about it being something they could try, or turning up the heat in the bedroom to spice up their sex to explore more, they would have more success.
> 
> I've loved nearly everything about the sex I've had in my life but I was trying to think of something that I don't necessarily want to try again so I could relate to this post, and that's the 69 position. I've done it, it didn't hurt, it wasn't traumatic, but I don't really care to ever do it again. If a future partner found out I had done it before but not with him, I would not expect him to be hurt by it and I certainly wouldn't expect him to make a huge deal and end the relationship over it. I didn't do it with the other guys because I was more attracted to them. I'm not with them anymore, I chose him.
> 
> I'm getting really bad feelings about this thread now. Like if a woman gave consent in the past, she's fair game for it no matter what or which man or when. Like, a used woman doesn't get a say because she's already done it. Creeping me out.


Not doing a 69 does not stop a wife and husband from doing and getting oral.


----------



## oldtruck

azimuth said:


> Yep, that's me, a hysterical triggery woman who can't think straight. ///
> 
> The women here aren't the ones threatening to end marriages and relationships over sex acts the woman did in the past. Remind me which gender is supposed to be more logical and doesn't make decisions based on emotion.


I have dealt with women in multiple situations (non sexual, non romantic) and woe is the 
man that tells her no when she knows if you have done different for others.

She will call a man out on that in a NY minute.


----------



## oldtruck

RoseAglow said:


> So again, this basically reduces sex acts to a dollar amount, but let's play anyway.
> 
> Let's say that 5 years ago, Grandma gave her other children $100. She has not given them any more money since that time.
> 
> Today, Grandma gave Bobby $5. We don't know why she only gave Bobby $5 and not $100. However, we do know that Grandma has set up her bank account so that no other kids get any more money from her, ever, and Bobby is set up to get $5 weekly for the next 20+ years . In addition, Bobby lives in Grandma's rental house and Grandma works at the local college and so Bobby is able to go for free.
> 
> So even though Bobby didn't get the exact dollar amount of the other grandkids, he is getting much more from Grandma.
> 
> Wouldn't it suck for everyone if Bobby just focused on that silly $100?


Comparing an apple to something not even edible. Changing the facts to get a
favorable outcome did not change the original premise from being correct.


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that this scenario is very unlikely to actually occur.
> 
> 
> 
> It's just a hypothetical. But there are things to be learned from thinking about hypothetical questions.



I’m all for hypotheticals. But then people seem to throw it back and say that this is how the majority of men think on TAM. That’s the confusing part.


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----------



## personofinterest

manwithnoname said:


> Not necessarily admitting directly to the husband, he could have found out many different ways.
> 
> Just curious if you can see how a husband would be upset by this.



Of course. But that ISN'T what the OP is about. Nowhere did ANY wife on this thread say "I'd be glad to go back and do X with Bob." That was some ridiculous "what if" hypothetical tossed out by someone trying to convince us this isn't a ridiculous thing to be obsessed about.


----------



## oldtruck

azimuth said:


> If the woman had never done the sex acts in question, and the husband wasn't getting them now, then that would be ok. It's the fact that she had done it before, then she should be down for it no matter what, when, where or who, because she's done it before. If she doesn't do it with her current partner, then she's not enthusiastically engaged. If she has never done it though, then she's still enthusiastically engaged and all is well. Certain sex acts can be meaningless or marriage ending, depending on if the woman had done it in the past with someone else.
> 
> ETA: ^that's what I'm getting from the men here.


There are always exceptions.

Why can people not use common sense. A woman was rapped analy.
Understandable that the woman would never want to do anal again.
I do not know of husband that would expect anal sex from his wife if
that woman was his wife.


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> I have dealt with women in multiple situations (non sexual, non romantic) and woe is the
> man that tells her no when she knows if you have done different for others.
> 
> She will call a man out on that in a NY minute.


If you read the sister thread to this, you will see you are dead wrong.

Sorry.


----------



## personofinterest

> Sometimes this sites just makes me despise most of mankind. It always makes me ecstatic to be married to my husband with a healthy self esteem and a generous lover who sees women in more than one dimension.


AMEN

I feel sorry for these men....but I feel MORE sorry for their wives.

How exhausting....


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> You miss a key fact.
> 
> It is not that a wife did "anal" (used for example) with her previous BF's and will not
> do it with her husband.
> 
> It is the husband that never got to do anal. He always wanted to try it. His wife
> knows that her husband never got "anal" when he was single. Yet she has no
> empathy for her husband will never get to try "anal". There is no offer to do it
> few times or once a year, nothing.
> 
> 
> This sends the message to the husband that the old BF's were hotter than him
> that is why his wife gave them "anal".
> 
> Same message is sent to the BH that the WW desired the OM more than him
> because she will not do things she for her BH that she willingly did for her OM.
> 
> "BH you are the beta drone to be my provider. You do not excite me enough to
> have porn star sex with you. I do not have to make the extra effort with sex to
> keep you married to me.


This is the most selfish, infantile, idiotic thing I have ever heard.


----------



## oldtruck

Knips said:


> Oh honey, never i would do anal with you, but if Bob would ask... immediately... 🤣 That is asking for a divorce. But wife could saved the conversation and say: Honey Bob could do anal with me because his penis was tiny, Honey you're penis is too big for anal and the pleasure you give me with you're penis is so high i really don't desire anal stimulation.


Problem is the wife lying about her husband's equipment being bigger.
Lying is never the way to go.


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> Problem is the wife lying about her husband's equipment being bigger.
> Lying is never the way to go.


These people don't even exist. Bob does not exist. Good grief this is pathetic.


----------



## oldtruck

personofinterest said:


> If you read the sister thread to this, you will see you are dead wrong.
> 
> Sorry.


Wrong?

Personal observation, conclusion based countless experiences.


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> Wrong?
> 
> Personal observation, conclusion based countless experiences.


Countless? Care to quantify that in relations to all the female population?


----------



## oldtruck

personofinterest said:


> These people don't even exist. Bob does not exist. Good grief this is pathetic.


An example using a imaginary person does not make it pathetic. It sets up and 
supports the facts.

Please debate the facts instead of doing personal attacks. Thank you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

oldtruck said:


> There are always exceptions.
> 
> Why can people not use common sense. A woman was rapped analy.
> Understandable that the woman would never want to do anal again.
> I do not know of husband that would expect anal sex from his wife if
> that woman was his wife.


So barring any extreme excuses considered "valid" by husband, wife is required to do anything with said husband that she ever did with anyone else. Check.


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> So barring any extreme excuses considered "valid" by husband, wife is required to do anything with said husband that she ever did with anyone else. Check.


Disgusting.


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> An example using a imaginary person does not make it pathetic. It sets up and
> supports the facts.
> 
> Please debate the facts instead of doing personal attacks. Thank you.


People who don't exist are not facts. Thank you


----------



## oldtruck

NobodySpecial said:


> So barring any extreme excuses considered "valid" by husband, wife is required to do anything with said husband that she ever did with anyone else. Check.


Taking one example to show that this is not a black and white issue.
Your interpretation makes it a black and white issue.


----------



## NobodySpecial

oldtruck said:


> Taking one example to show that this is not a black and white issue.
> Your interpretation makes it a black and white issue.


Your one example does more to show what a kind of twisted way of thinking this topic even is. Being a "black and white" issue or not is a non-argument, as far as I am concerned. As with all matters marriage, nothing is simple. What I don't see is how healthy whining about what a wife is not doing "for" husband that she is did with someone else is healthy.


----------



## 269370

This thread makes me think that perhaps I should give it a go and try do anal with Bob. See if it’s really that amazing....*♀


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----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> This thread makes me think that perhaps I should give it a go and try do anal with Bob. See if it’s really that amazing....*♀
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that Bob or B.O.B.

har har


----------



## 269370

Has anyone actually read the whole thread? Has this discussion been going on in similar fashion for 5 years?


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----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> Has anyone actually read the whole thread? Has this discussion been going on in similar fashion for 5 years?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sadly, yes. The secondary gain for whining must be ENORMOUS.


----------



## CharlieParker

inmyprime said:


> This thread makes me think that perhaps I should give it a go and try do anal with Bob. See if it’s really that amazing....*♀


Apples to oranges? I thought the wife pegged Bob.


----------



## Randy Lafever

inmyprime said:


> This thread makes me think that perhaps I should give it a go and try do anal with Bob. See if it’s really that amazing....*♀
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Stop by "Grandma's" house on the way back, she's handing out $100 bills, man.


----------



## 269370

I have had a word with Bob. He says anal is way overrated. Find something else unique to try and obsess about.
Has anyone watched the show The Affair? There is a scene where Noah asks his AP (forgot her name) to do something with him she never did with anyone before.
I’m going to try the same thing tonight; do something I never done with anyone before. Leave her alone.


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----------



## Randy Lafever

(Since we are getting off topic here...)

I often wonder, who was the first man to suggest to his woman to penetrate her anus, and why did he do that? Like, I understand why homosexual men do it, it's a work-around because men do not have appropriate parts for receptive sex. But it's not an ideal situation.

So why did that first man and woman decide to do that?


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Taking the feelings of a grown human in partnership is wonderful. Appeasing a man-child's delicate ego is not. This was a very old school mode of thinking in marriage once upon a time that men are fragile and need to have their egos stroked by their wives. Personally, I will pass. I know many, many men whose egos are not so fragile and requiring of tending. They have feelings like everyone else. The idea that it is fundamentally male to have a delicate ego in need of stroking is just an excuse to get comfortable not stretching oneself to attain the self assurance that would work wonders.


Is there anything that it is acceptable for a man to be have a fragile ego about?

Say your husband just put a lot of time and effort into repairing something. Is it okay to just say "nice job" instead of pointing out that your dad could have done it better and faster? 

How about a woman's ego? Lets say that a wife has put on a little weight, it's not enough to affect her husband's attraction to her and he still thinks she looks great. Should he just say "well, your thighs ARE a little bigger than they used to be"?

Or is it just men that are man-children with fragile egos?

Now, in your case, I believe that you're one of those "radical honesty" people and might well say that there's nothing wrong with pointing out that the wife's porked up a bit and, therefore, from you I can buy not being concerned for your husband's ego. But I don't think most others are in the same boat.


----------



## 269370

Randy Lafever said:


> (Since we are getting off topic here...)
> 
> 
> 
> I often wonder, who was the first man to suggest to his woman to penetrate her anus, and why did he do that? Like, I understand why homosexual men do it, it's a work-around because men do not have appropriate parts for receptive sex. But it's not an ideal situation.
> 
> 
> 
> So why did that first man and woman decide to do that?




It was a ‘hit and miss’. Or perhaps even a hit and run...*♂ 🤭


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----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Is there anything that it is acceptable for a man to be have a fragile ego about?


Not sure what you mean by acceptable. To me in a spouse? I would not marry a human, man or woman, who needed their ego pampered. 



> Say your husband just put a lot of time and effort into repairing something. Is it okay to just say "nice job" instead of pointing out that your dad could have done it better and faster?


That would be within the ebb and flow vs the notion I was quoting about tending "the male ego".



> How about a woman's ego? Lets say that a wife has put on a little weight, it's not enough to affect her husband's attraction to her and he still thinks she looks great. Should he just say "well, your thighs ARE a little bigger than they used to be"?
> 
> Or is it just men that are man-children with fragile egos?
> 
> Now, in your case, I believe that you're one of those "radical honesty" people and might well say that there's nothing wrong with pointing out that the wife's porked up a bit and, therefore, from you I can buy not being concerned for your husband's ego. But I don't think most others are in the same boat.


Oh Lordy I am not into radical honesty in particular! I would not say a project was a piece of crap or anything like that! I am not a jerk. Personally, I would not ask someone ELSE if I have gained weight. I am not blind. If he said something about it, I am more likely to say something like, oh you noticed. Fair enough.


----------



## Buddy400

anastasia6 said:


> Sometimes this sites just makes me despise most of mankind. It always makes me ecstatic to be married to my husband with a healthy self esteem and a generous lover who sees women in more than one dimension.


I often find the same to be true in reverse.

Then I have to pull myself away for a while.


----------



## personofinterest

Buddy400 said:


> Is there anything that it is acceptable for a man to be have a fragile ego about?
> 
> Say your husband just put a lot of time and effort into repairing something. Is it okay to just say "nice job" instead of pointing out that your dad could have done it better and faster?
> 
> How about a woman's ego? Lets say that a wife has put on a little weight, it's not enough to affect her husband's attraction to her and he still thinks she looks great. Should he just say "well, your thighs ARE a little bigger than they used to be"?
> 
> Or is it just men that are man-children with fragile egos?
> 
> Now, in your case, I believe that you're one of those "radical honesty" people and might well say that there's nothing wrong with pointing out that the wife's porked up a bit and, therefore, from you I can buy not being concerned for your husband's ego. But I don't think most others are in the same boat.


Of course we should care about our partner's feelings or "ego." But there a difference between compassion and enabling something unhealthy. This weird scorekeeping obsession is unhealthy. It just is. Whether it's men or women, sex or romance.

When my hubby fixes something I ooh and ahh over it because A. I sure couldn't do it and B. It is one of many ways he takes care of us. It deserves admiration. It doesn't matter how my dad did things - my dad isn't there.

The weird all or nothing stuff doesn't make the obsession any more valid.


----------



## Randy Lafever

inmyprime said:


> It was a ‘hit and miss’. Or perhaps even a hit and run...*♂ 🤭
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you believe it was an accident borne out of inexperience (perhaps intoxication?)?

I doubt there are any historical records on the first instance of it but surely somebody has researched the first mention of it in literature or pornography, etc.

If I had to guess I'd say it started with the hippies. Maybe at Woodstock. Those people have some ideas about sex.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> If you read the sister thread to this, you will see you are dead wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry.



Actually my wife thinks (and I better use her opinion to avoid a **** storm) that women in general are much more insecure on average (that was in relation with a conversation we were having about possible reasons why so many school mums engage in cat fights, backstabbing and *****y behaviour whereas dads rarely give a **** about any of those things).
Sexual acts are probably difficult for women to relate to (because for many, those are so way down the list of priorities as to not even worth thinking about) that’s why maybe men appear to them as selfish and self entitled twats since to them, these things are much more important. 

However a better analogy would be if you suddenly found out that your husband used to spoil his previous love with luxury holiday trips and very expense he gifts, romantic getaways and spontaneous dates etc whereas with you, he has always been sort of ‘routine’ and ‘sensible’ when it came to spending, gifts and trips. Never bought you flowers and would forget important anniversary dates.

How would it make you feel, hand on your hearts, or thereabouts? 

I think some women in this thread already admitted that these types of thoughts would creep in and make hem feel uncomfortable, involuntarily.
That’s prolly the same with some men too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

Before me, my husband worked several jobs when he was young, and he and his earlier wife traveled a lot, bough newer cars, etc.

Now he works one job (and he works hard), and he has more debts along with CS and other things. We don't eat at fancy places, and our vacation usually involves staying with family.

I don't mind because it is time with HIM. I don't need things. Or lavish trips. I want him to want me and cherish me. He does that.

I have no doubt that some women scorekeep just like men. They are whining too, IMO


----------



## personofinterest

In other news...poor Bob


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Before me, my husband worked several jobs when he was young, and he and his earlier wife traveled a lot, bough newer cars, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Now he works one job (and he works hard), and he has more debts along with CS and other things. We don't eat at fancy places, and our vacation usually involves staying with family.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mind because it is time with HIM. I don't need things. Or lavish trips. I want him to want me and cherish me. He does that.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that some women scorekeep just like men. They are whining too, IMO




Ok so you understand that this is not personal because of certain financial limitations. Maybe some men also need to understand that this is not personal (i.e. women’s bodies/hormones/sex drive change etc). 
On the other hand, would you not find it odd if he still cut things back with/for you, Even though his financial situation remained the same?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> Has anyone actually read the whole thread? Has this discussion been going on in similar fashion for 5 years?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I have.

Yes it has.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> However a better analogy would be if you suddenly found out that your husband used to spoil his previous love with luxury holiday trips and very expense he gifts, romantic getaways and spontaneous dates etc whereas with you, he has always been sort of ‘routine’ and ‘sensible’ when it came to spending, gifts and trips. Never bought you flowers and would forget important anniversary dates.
> 
> How would it make you feel, hand on your hearts, or thereabouts?


That's been tried, many times.

To a woman, they all claim they'd have absolutely no problem with that.


----------



## CharlieParker

On Bob, the best TAM thread ever. https://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/72733-hi.html


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> That's been tried, many times.
> 
> 
> 
> To a woman, they all claim they'd have absolutely no problem with that.




Maybe that’s ‘cos they have been getting amazing anal pleasures from Bob? It’s the kind of sex where you don’t need to bring flowers afterwards. It’s the woman who gets the flowers 🤪


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> That's been tried, many times.
> 
> 
> 
> To a woman, they all claim they'd have absolutely no problem with that.




On a slightly more serious note, maybe in order to receive more expensive gifts, all the woman needs to do is withhold a bit, and gifts plus romantic holidays will buy themselves. Easy! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## happiness27

Randy Lafever said:


> (Since we are getting off topic here...)
> 
> I often wonder, who was the first man to suggest to his woman to penetrate her anus, and why did he do that? Like, I understand why homosexual men do it, it's a work-around because men do not have appropriate parts for receptive sex. But it's not an ideal situation.
> 
> So why did that first man and woman decide to do that?


It's not just a "work around" - it's prostate stimulation which is one thing that makes me really, really jealous of men. All y'all have a pleasure mechanism that women will never get to experience. Apparently prostate stimulation is galaxy level orgasmic experience.


----------



## happiness27

Did anybody on this thread ever get specific about what sex acts we are talking about wherein men feel deprived?


----------



## happiness27

oldtruck said:


> You miss a key fact.
> 
> It is not that a wife did "anal" (used for example) with her previous BF's and will not
> do it with her husband.
> 
> It is the husband that never got to do anal. He always wanted to try it. His wife
> knows that her husband never got "anal" when he was single. Yet she has no
> empathy for her husband will never get to try "anal". There is no offer to do it
> few times or once a year, nothing.
> 
> 
> This sends the message to the husband that the old BF's were hotter than him
> that is why his wife gave them "anal".
> 
> Same message is sent to the BH that the WW desired the OM more than him
> because she will not do things she for her BH that she willingly did for her OM.
> 
> "BH you are the beta drone to be my provider. You do not excite me enough to
> have porn star sex with you. I do not have to make the extra effort with sex to
> keep you married to me.


If I was in this scenario where a guy wanted to do anal that badly, I'd say: "You first" and strap one on.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Some random thoughts about different lovers....

I had one lover who was in my top 5 who wasn’t a boob guy. And I do love some boob attention so I asked him to just do it anyway, explained what I like and want. He just couldn’t do it because he’s just not a boob guy. So he could not touch me with any authenticity of desire and eventually I stopped asking him to do it and he didn’t anymore. 

Ironically, this boyfriend wanted to be my “best” and we talked teasingly about this. I never said he was, and I even light heartedly explained that since he isn’t a boob man and I do want that type of attention, and since I’ve had lovers in the past who paid attention to them the way I liked, he wasn’t quite the best overall. Sorry honey. 

So even though he could have been the best, he was not able to give me something I wanted and that missing ingredient meant the difference between the best and just being in the top 5.

The same guy told me I was the best for him, but I explained I really didn’t care one way or another and if he had better than me I was simply happy for him.

Another thought....I’ve done only a small number of truly wild things, but one of those things was going to a sex club (twice actually). And actually I didn’t even have sex at the sex club, but still it was a wild and crazy night (twice).

The people I went with, in both cases, are people I did not want to be in a relationship with. I was fine with sex buddies or just fun friends with them. But they were not relationship worthy.

What I have found when I’ve been dating people since then is that if they hear about this story, they do not ask me to go to a sex club with them. They may like the story (it’s a good story) but they don’t want to go there. I would consider going with a relationship partner if they wanted to and if they seemed like they would enjoy it. But quite frankly, most people aren’t going to enjoy it so it is not something I would ever push for in a relationship.

Another note....there are lots of freaky things I did with my ex husband....things I would actually enjoy doing again with someone else. But they are things that most men don’t want to do and when I bring it up, they get a worried look on their face. So I drop it. 

But this means that leaves this whole wide open area where I’m not getting stuff I used to get. How in the world do the men I’m dating live with the knowledge that they are not number one? Well probably because they realize that they are not required to do for me what other partners have done with me before. And therefore, either they may dazzle me with the things they do very well and I’ll be good with that, or I can decide hey I’ll bet I can find another guy who will do those things.

All of the men who think it is as simple as oh this one guy and the one thing I gave him that I won’t give another guy means I love this one better or whatever....it’s just not that simple. Different partners, different feelings, different skill levels...it’s not all just a straight forward comparison.


----------



## bandit.45

Man...this thread has a motor on it...


----------



## 247769

It makes you realize there are no perfect relationships where both parties are completely happy and fully satisfied.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


----------



## CharlieParker

happiness27 said:


> If I was in this scenario where a guy wanted to do anal that badly, I'd say: "You first" and strap one on.


I’ve been teasing my wife for years, the “Bend Over Boyfriend Kit” is sold out. She doesn’t want to order a la carte <insert appropriate emoji, beats me which one>


----------



## happiness27

peterrabbit said:


> It makes you realize there are no perfect relationships where both parties are completely happy and fully satisfied.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


Except one, then: mine

Just kidding - I think there are a ton of really happy relationships where both partners are happy and fully satisfied. I think that when you look at forums like this where the bulk of people come to discuss problems (quite understandably), one can get a disproportionally skewed view of relationships.


----------



## happiness27

CharlieParker said:


> I’ve been teasing my wife for years, the “Bend Over Boyfriend Kit” is sold out. She doesn’t want to order a la carte <insert appropriate emoji, beats me which one>


There's probably a very quiet, discreet group of men who have discovered prostate stimulation is an incredible experience - for MEN. For women, we don't have prostates so anal is...meh.


----------



## 2ntnuf

happiness27 said:


> If I was in this scenario where a guy wanted to do anal that badly, I'd say: "You first" and strap one on.


I'd like to see your face when the guy slaps some ky on his arse and bends over. :laugh: Wouldn't you be in a pickle? Sorry, I'm silly tonight.


----------



## samyeagar

2ntnuf said:


> I'd like to see your face when the guy slaps some ky on his arse and bends over. :laugh: Wouldn't you be in a pickle? Sorry, I'm silly tonight.


I'm not sure a pickle is exactly where they'd be.


----------



## 269370

happiness27 said:


> It's not just a "work around" - it's prostate stimulation which is one thing that makes me really, really jealous of men. All y'all have a pleasure mechanism that women will never get to experience. Apparently prostate stimulation is galaxy level orgasmic experience.



That and a bit of a pain in the ass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Some random thoughts about different lovers....
> 
> I had one lover who was in my top 5 who wasn’t a boob guy. And I do love some boob attention so I asked him to just do it anyway, explained what I like and want. He just couldn’t do it because he’s just not a boob guy. So he could not touch me with any authenticity of desire and eventually I stopped asking him to do it and he didn’t anymore.
> 
> Ironically, this boyfriend wanted to be my “best” and we talked teasingly about this. I never said he was, and I even light heartedly explained that since he isn’t a boob man and I do want that type of attention, and since I’ve had lovers in the past who paid attention to them the way I liked, he wasn’t quite the best overall. Sorry honey.
> 
> So even though he could have been the best, he was not able to give me something I wanted and that missing ingredient meant the difference between the best and just being in the top 5.
> 
> The same guy told me I was the best for him, but I explained I really didn’t care one way or another and if he had better than me I was simply happy for him.
> 
> Another thought....I’ve done only a small number of truly wild things, but one of those things was going to a sex club (twice actually). And actually I didn’t even have sex at the sex club, but still it was a wild and crazy night (twice).
> 
> The people I went with, in both cases, are people I did not want to be in a relationship with. I was fine with sex buddies or just fun friends with them. But they were not relationship worthy.
> 
> What I have found when I’ve been dating people since then is that if they hear about this story, they do not ask me to go to a sex club with them. They may like the story (it’s a good story) but they don’t want to go there. I would consider going with a relationship partner if they wanted to and if they seemed like they would enjoy it. But quite frankly, most people aren’t going to enjoy it so it is not something I would ever push for in a relationship.
> 
> Another note....there are lots of freaky things I did with my ex husband....things I would actually enjoy doing again with someone else. But they are things that most men don’t want to do and when I bring it up, they get a worried look on their face. So I drop it.
> 
> But this means that leaves this whole wide open area where I’m not getting stuff I used to get. How in the world do the men I’m dating live with the knowledge that they are not number one? Well probably because they realize that they are not required to do for me what other partners have done with me before. And therefore, either they may dazzle me with the things they do very well and I’ll be good with that, or I can decide hey I’ll bet I can find another guy who will do those things.
> 
> All of the men who think it is as simple as oh this one guy and the one thing I gave him that I won’t give another guy means I love this one better or whatever....it’s just not that simple. Different partners, different feelings, different skill levels...it’s not all just a straight forward comparison.


And you bring the enthusiastic engagement, which when lacking, is what leads to the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread. I would not expect you to ever encounter these types of situations because of that.


----------



## Buddy400

peterrabbit said:


> It makes you realize there are no perfect relationships where both parties are completely happy and fully satisfied.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


I think my wife and I count as completely happy and satisfied.


----------



## happiness27

oldtruck said:


> You miss a key fact.
> 
> It is not that a wife did "anal" (used for example) with her previous BF's and will not
> do it with her husband.
> 
> It is the husband that never got to do anal. He always wanted to try it. His wife
> knows that her husband never got "anal" when he was single. Yet she has no
> empathy for her husband will never get to try "anal". There is no offer to do it
> few times or once a year, nothing.
> 
> 
> This sends the message to the husband that the old BF's were hotter than him
> that is why his wife gave them "anal".
> 
> Same message is sent to the BH that the WW desired the OM more than him
> because she will not do things she for her BH that she willingly did for her OM.
> 
> "BH you are the beta drone to be my provider. You do not excite me enough to
> have porn star sex with you. I do not have to make the extra effort with sex to
> keep you married to me.


Why would a husband ask a wife to do anal when she didn't want to? Anal takes a LOT of effort - whether you are gay (man) or straight woman. You have to make sure you are cleaned out and watch what you ate beforehand, etc. - then, think about the guy putting his beautiful clean penis in a hole that is riddled with bacterial waste product so he dang well better be using a condom. Then there's the total lack of lubrication which...requires rather specific lubrications. And if you go to the sex shops, there's even videos on how to do anal safely so you don't hurt each other...particularly the receiver. 

Anal sex can lead to anal incontinence and several other health factors and, although no studies presently indicate that anal sex CAUSES rectoceles, women who have had rectocele repair should avoid anal sex.

If people LIKE anal sex and approach it safely (condoms), and they both just get a real kick out of it, like their sex life wouldn't feel fulfilled without it, then those folks must do what they gotta do. Makes no difference to me. 

But, SERIOUSLY, there are so many amazing sexual activities one can do that I can't imagine a guy sitting around bemoaning the fact that he doesn't get anal. If that is the way he is going to take his thinking, he needs to cut himself loose from his relationship and go out and get what he wants. Or, if his wife is amenable, get it from elsewhere in a hall pass or couple swap.

I would NEVER make a person do something sexually or guilt them into something they didn't want to do. That's abusive, immature and unstable.


----------



## 269370

This ‘skill level’ is not something I understand very well...Maybe someone can help me.

If I was with a woman who was incredibly skilful in bed but I didn’t feel as attracted to her versus a woman who perhaps wasn’t as skilful but I had an unstoppable desire for her, I would choose the latter hands down every time. (It’s a bit like eating a dish incredibly well prepared, but not with the ingredients that I really enjoy; so I would still choose a homemade pasta or something simple that I like over an elaborate lobster dish, because I simply don’t enjoy lobster as much as pasta. But a lot more effort would have gone into the lobster). So how does one ‘rate’ someone or why would one rate someone on skill alone; the only way you can really rate someone ‘independently’ and without bias is if you don’t really feel anything towards that person. Otherwise once feelings and actual desire for that person is involved, any subjective judgement over their actual skill level goes out of the window. No?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf

CharlieParker said:


> On Bob, the best TAM thread ever. https://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/72733-hi.html


boB, I miss him. He was a man of the world.


----------



## syhoybenden

happiness27 said:


> It's not just a "work around" - it's prostate stimulation which is one thing that makes me really, really jealous of men. All y'all have a pleasure mechanism that women will never get to experience. Apparently prostate stimulation is galaxy level orgasmic experience.



Sez who? You sound delusional.


----------



## 269370

happiness27 said:


> Why would a husband ask a wife to do anal when she didn't want to? Anal takes a LOT of effort - whether you are gay (man) or straight woman. You have to make sure you are cleaned out and watch what you ate beforehand, etc. - then, think about the guy putting his beautiful clean penis in a hole that is riddled with bacterial waste product so he dang well better be using a condom. Then there's the total lack of lubrication which...requires rather specific lubrications. And if you go to the sex shops, there's even videos on how to do anal safely so you don't hurt each other...particularly the receiver.



Oh crap (pardon the pun), we weren’t doing it right then. No cleaning out, or watching diet, or lubrication or condom  just a bit of warmup/stretching and spit. 

I do feel that overall, vagina feels much much better and feel bad that gay men miss out on a nice, muscly, tight vajayjay.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf

syhoybenden said:


> Sez who? You sound delusional.


Reads like a visit to the urologist for a cancer screening. Never thought that was fun.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some random thoughts about different lovers....
> 
> I had one lover who was in my top 5 who wasn’t a boob guy. And I do love some boob attention so I asked him to just do it anyway, explained what I like and want. He just couldn’t do it because he’s just not a boob guy. So he could not touch me with any authenticity of desire and eventually I stopped asking him to do it and he didn’t anymore.
> 
> Ironically, this boyfriend wanted to be my “best” and we talked teasingly about this. I never said he was, and I even light heartedly explained that since he isn’t a boob man and I do want that type of attention, and since I’ve had lovers in the past who paid attention to them the way I liked, he wasn’t quite the best overall. Sorry honey.
> 
> So even though he could have been the best, he was not able to give me something I wanted and that missing ingredient meant the difference between the best and just being in the top 5.
> 
> The same guy told me I was the best for him, but I explained I really didn’t care one way or another and if he had better than me I was simply happy for him.
> 
> Another thought....I’ve done only a small number of truly wild things, but one of those things was going to a sex club (twice actually). And actually I didn’t even have sex at the sex club, but still it was a wild and crazy night (twice).
> 
> The people I went with, in both cases, are people I did not want to be in a relationship with. I was fine with sex buddies or just fun friends with them. But they were not relationship worthy.
> 
> What I have found when I’ve been dating people since then is that if they hear about this story, they do not ask me to go to a sex club with them. They may like the story (it’s a good story) but they don’t want to go there. I would consider going with a relationship partner if they wanted to and if they seemed like they would enjoy it. But quite frankly, most people aren’t going to enjoy it so it is not something I would ever push for in a relationship.
> 
> Another note....there are lots of freaky things I did with my ex husband....things I would actually enjoy doing again with someone else. But they are things that most men don’t want to do and when I bring it up, they get a worried look on their face. So I drop it.
> 
> But this means that leaves this whole wide open area where I’m not getting stuff I used to get. How in the world do the men I’m dating live with the knowledge that they are not number one? Well probably because they realize that they are not required to do for me what other partners have done with me before. And therefore, either they may dazzle me with the things they do very well and I’ll be good with that, or I can decide hey I’ll bet I can find another guy who will do those things.
> 
> All of the men who think it is as simple as oh this one guy and the one thing I gave him that I won’t give another guy means I love this one better or whatever....it’s just not that simple. Different partners, different feelings, different skill levels...it’s not all just a straight forward comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> And you bring the enthusiastic engagement, which when lacking, is what leads to the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread. I would not expect you to ever encounter these types of situations because of that.
Click to expand...

If the whole issue is actually “you were enthusiastic with previous partners but you aren’t with me”, then I would agree, she probably isn’t as into her current guy.

It is a weird way to get around to just saying it’s about enthusiasm. Coming up with hypothetical situations isn’t necessary.

Yep - if she was enthusiastic about sex in general with others and she isn’t with you, then she’s either not in love with you, the sex isn’t good for her, or some similar problem.


----------



## happiness27

2ntnuf said:


> I'd like to see your face when the guy slaps some ky on his arse and bends over. :laugh: Wouldn't you be in a pickle? Sorry, I'm silly tonight.


Ever try it? :grin2:

Point being, if a guy wants anal, then his challenge is to receive it. If he's not willing to receive it, then he needs to STFU. 

My husband doesn't *pout* about me not performing anal. I don't like it on me so we don't do it. It just doesn't do anything for me. It takes too much preplanning and prep - plus, no matter what I have done, it's too uncomfortable. I never feel clean enough and it's not worth the pain when I have so many other adventures in sex to choose from.


----------



## happiness27

inmyprime said:


> Oh crap (pardon the pun), we weren’t doing it right then. No cleaning out, or watching diet, or lubrication or condom  just a bit of warmup/stretching and spit.
> 
> I do feel that overall, vagina feels much much better and feel bad that gay men miss out on a nice, muscly, tight vajayjay.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From my present viewpoint, spit and feces isn't on my top sex menu.  I admit, I'm a shower-before/shower-after kind of girl when it comes to sex (our water bill is kinda high  ) and I almost regret having too many science classes, A&P and biology. You can't unsee some things, right? 

I seriously, seriously doubt that gay men miss a vajayjay. 

But, please do go on about a muscly tight vajayjay and it's appeal...I am not even a little bi, so I really don't understand a guy's viewpoint on what make women such an attraction.


----------



## 2ntnuf

happiness27 said:


> Ever try it? :grin2:
> 
> Point being, if a guy wants anal, then his challenge is to receive it. If he's not willing to receive it, then he needs to STFU.
> 
> My husband doesn't *pout* about me not performing anal. I don't like it on me so we don't do it. It just doesn't do anything for me. It takes too much preplanning and prep - plus, no matter what I have done, it's too uncomfortable. I never feel clean enough and it's not worth the pain when I have so many other adventures in sex to choose from.


No, but I have gone to a urologist. :laugh:


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

happiness27 said:


> I seriously, seriously doubt that gay men miss a vajayjay.
> 
> _*But, please do go on about a muscly tight vajayjay and it's appeal...I am not even a little bi, so I really don't understand a guy's viewpoint on what make women such an attraction.*_


If a thread was started about this, it would eclipse how fast this thread grew!


----------



## happiness27

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> If a thread was started about this, it would eclipse how fast this thread grew!


Hey YOU started it! lol


----------



## PigglyWiggly

happiness27 said:


> If I was in this scenario where a guy wanted to do anal that badly, I'd say: "You first" and strap one on.


"i'm your huckleberry"


----------



## happiness27

PigglyWiggly said:


> "i'm your huckleberry"


Okay, now we have officially defined "Man UP" lol


----------



## 269370

happiness27 said:


> From my present viewpoint, spit and feces isn't on my top sex menu.  I admit, I'm a shower-before/shower-after kind of girl when it comes to sex (our water bill is kinda high  ) and I almost regret having too many science classes, A&P and biology. You can't unsee some things, right?
> 
> I seriously, seriously doubt that gay men miss a vajayjay.
> 
> But, please do go on about a muscly tight vajayjay and it's appeal...I am not even a little bi, so I really don't understand a guy's viewpoint on what make women such an attraction.




Yeah I have known a girl who would shower every 20 mins or so and was very conscious about smells and whatnot...

Thou (and her) worryeth too much unnecessarily, me thinks.

Part of what makes me attracted to wife is HER smell, not the smell of soap...I have to literally beg her to stop showering so much all the time. 

Vajayjays are the bestest, what can I say...Nothing can wrap around an offensive and selfish looking penis as lovingly and caringly like a moist, flexible vajayjay. The big intestine is unfortunately not the same nor was it ‘designed’ to be quite the same.

Like I keep saying, if I was an architect, I would erect (spread out?) much more buildings in honour of its beauty, instead of the countless phallic structures that men need to stop to keep putting out there for themselves to admire.
We have orchids all over our house and if I could join a church group of some sort to worship the vajayjay even more (especially wife’s vajayjay; hers is the holiest of them all), I would. Long live the vajayjay!


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----------



## happiness27

inmyprime said:


> Yeah I have known a girl who would shower every 20 mins or so and was very conscious about smells and whatnot...
> 
> Thou (and her) worryeth too much unnecessarily, me thinks.
> 
> Part of what makes me attracted to wife is HER smell, not the smell of soap...I have to literally beg her to stop showering so much all the time.
> 
> Vajayjays are the bestest, what can I say...Nothing can wrap around an offensive and selfish looking penis as lovingly and caringly like a moist, flexible vajayjay. The big intestine is unfortunately not the same nor was it ‘designed’ to be quite the same.
> 
> Like I keep saying, if I was an architect, I would erect (spread out?) much more buildings in honour of its beauty, instead of the countless phallic structures that men need to stop to keep putting out there for themselves to admire.
> We have orchids all over our house and if I could join a church group of some sort to worship the vajayjay even more (especially wife’s vajayjay; hers is the holiest of them all), I would. Long live the vajayjay!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, I don't have sex every 20 minutes so...lol...but, yeah, I don't want my man to encounter bits and pieces of TP or accumulations from the day and I want my various beds to be clean, fresh places. I've said this before but sometimes I regret taking science classes because I know more than I wish I knew. Plus, I guess over the years having babies and all the woman exams and all the stuff that goes on with people looking at my V for medical purposes - that gets in your head after awhile and it's hard to make it go away. I think my husband would agree with you, though - he's just all in whenever, wherever, whatever. lol 

I think there was a guy on some news show not that long ago who was talking about a study that a group had finally done on the female orgasm - so little has been studied or is known about it. He was saying that the female "penis" - which all fetuses carry the potential early on of becoming male or female - that the female penile tissue is thought to be spread out into the vagina so that the potential in female orgasm is vast and sadly not studied or talked about as much - but that tissue is more wide spread with thousands of nerve endings. 

Certainly, we can see in porn - the majority of which focuses on the male sex act upon a female. There really isn't much female exploration in porn - it's so much pointed at the gratification of men...somewhat (a lot) influencing behavior of women to some unknown degree. Of course, only being female, I really don't understand how a man's body works or how it feels to him. But I do know that an orgasm for me, as a woman is felt as a radiation and not centered on one area.

But show me a guy who has his face genuinely in a woman's lady parts and her in actuality having a great time and an orgasm and I could get INTO that. And it would be VERY helpful to women - a real boost to know that our pleasure is worth a marquee.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> I had one lover who was in my top 5 who wasn’t a boob guy. And I do love some boob attention so I asked him to just do it anyway, explained what I like and want. He just couldn’t do it because he’s just not a boob guy. So he could not touch me with any authenticity of desire and eventually I stopped asking him to do it and he didn’t anymore.
> 
> Ironically, this boyfriend wanted to be my “best” and we talked teasingly about this. I never said he was, and I even light heartedly explained that since he isn’t a boob man and I do want that type of attention, and since I’ve had lovers in the past who paid attention to them the way I liked, he wasn’t quite the best overall. Sorry honey.
> 
> So even though he could have been the best, he was not able to give me something I wanted and that missing ingredient meant the difference between the best and just being in the top 5.
> .


Well, this situation actually is kind of the OPPOSITE of the OP's topic. 

When you boil it down, this revolves around whether a refusal to do something sexual (which you are still physically capable of doing) that was enthusiastically and willfully done with others sends a nonverbal message. I say it does. It is one message in a sea of messages that occur during a relationship, but it still sends a message. In the right context, that message is about the level about the level of engagement/desire/enthusiasm for the current partner. 

Now, in some cases, like #samyeagar, there is such an obvious enthusiasm in other sexual aspects. that this message is modified by context. It doesn't become a message of "I'm not as strongly attracted to you as others in my past", it becomes "I really don't like this one activity". 

Now, in your case, the guy was WILLING to give you boob attention, he just didn't have the skills because his heart (or his animal lust) just wasn't into it. "Not a boob guy", as you say. Therefore, there is no issue about his level of involvement for YOU, because he was "in the top 5" in other ways. In fact, his willingness to try to do things for you (even though his skill were poor) actually demonstrate how actively engaged he was with you. So, in essence, he was doing what is the exact OPPOSITE of the topic of the OP.

*What would be more analogous to the OP situation is if he flatly REFUSED to even give you an ATTEMPT at boob stimulation. Then, if you found out (it doesn't matter how) that with his prior relationship right before you, not only was he a "boob guy", he was apparently really good at it, and demonstrated an unbridled enthusiasm for the whole endeavor. Don't you think at some level you (or any woman) might feel that the issue isn't that he doesn't like boobs, he just doesn't like YOUR boobs?*

I mean, I think that's sending a message through actions (or non-actions). The message may or may not be true, but I think it's still out there.

*And, in the end, don't you think that posters who can't even CONCEDE that a NORMAL person might feel the message in the bolded area above, and instead bash the person for feeling that way, aren't a little lacking empathy?* 

Does it make you:
- "whiny" because you asked him for boob stimulation when he willingly, enthusiastically and skillfully did it for other women?
- "fragile ego" because you feel hurt by this rejection?
- trying to "check a box" because you want this one sexual aspect, when he's still providing other sexual acts (genital, oral, etc.)?
- "insecure" (in a flawed way) because it makes you wonder what it is about YOUR boobs that won't drive him to the same level of animal lust toward them he had clearly demonstrated with other women?
- "badgering/bullying" if you persistently ask because "no means no" and he has the right to refuse to do an act without harrassment?
- "superficial/selfish" because you end the relationship over his refusal to do for you what he has done for other women?

(These are the kinds of hateful posts toward men we have seen in this thread). 

Is a post from a guy stating, "I would hate to be forced to do a sexual act like that if I was against it. I'm glad I'm in a relationship with my wonderful sexy wife with whom I feel safe to explore her boobs TOGETHER," really a helpful post? Would that sound somewhat self-absorbed, and somewhat insulting? Doesn't it have an implication that you are somehow "flawed" because you can't make your partner feel the same way enough to touch your boobs?

Should you just be expected to go without boob attention because it would be "juvenile/selfish/immature/whatever" to keep demanding it?

I really feel for the OP and other guys who have been through this. Not all of them get the positive reinforcement that #samyeagar gets which counteracts and provides context for any refusal/limitations by Mrs. Samyeagar. I actually speculate that most do not. Although there are no such refusals from Mrs. Wolfman (in fact, without going into details, her offers are more than I accept), I can empathize with the plight of these guys like the OP, and feel that the bashing is completely unjustified. 

************
as a side note: 
And I think all the posts of "that's what you get for talking about the past", etc. are evading the question. However he got there, the OP is in a situation, and he wanted to talk about his feelings. Maybe that advice would help future relationships, but it won't help the current situation.....just as someone who is drowning in debt and asking if they should refinance vs filing for bankruptcy is not helped by comments like "you shouldn't have bought that expensive car" or "you shouldn't have gone on that vacation", etc.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> *If the whole issue is actually “you were enthusiastic with previous partners but you aren’t with me”, then I would agree, she probably isn’t as into her current guy.*
> 
> It is a weird way to get around to just saying it’s about enthusiasm. Coming up with hypothetical situations isn’t necessary.
> 
> Yep - if she was enthusiastic about sex in general with others and she isn’t with you, then she’s either not in love with you, the sex isn’t good for her, or some similar problem.


I think the enthusiasm is EXACTLY the issue. Because a refusal to do things certainly can look like a lack of enthusiasm, and can nonverbally send that message. Because I believe that in most cases, physical or other limitations aside, the difference between being up for doing things that are more edgy and refusing is primarily the relationship/sexual desire that the woman (in the case of the OP being discussed) feels.

#samyeagar has posted that there are things off the table for him which his wife has done with others, but it's not an issue for him because he gets so much reinforcement of her enthusiasm in other ways.

The negative posters (mostly women) on here keep implying or outright saying that if a guy has a problem with not being allowed/offered a sexual activity that was ENTHUSIASTICALLY performed with a different partner previously, then it's the guy's problem for not being able to deal with it. I, on the other hand, believe that 9 times out of 10, it's probably the woman's fault, for not showing enough enthusiasm in other ways so that it becomes a non-issue, like it does for #samyeagar. 

Because it the end, it IS about the feelings about the relationship and sexual feelings toward their partner which determines what a woman is up for. And so, actions become a reflection of those feelings. 

The women posters seem to try to deny it, but their posts only seem to reinforce it. The posts run something like, "The guy is insecure and selfish and flawed to think that his partner's refusal means anything but her own limitations that he is not respecting. I am glad I am not with a guy like that. My sexy husband is so respective that we explore TOGETHER things that I have never done with anyone else." What the hell? Don't they realize that they just PROVED the premise? That they just showed that their willingness to explore with their "sexy husband" is a reflection of their relationship and desire for him? That they just proved that an UNWILLINGNESS to explore means the guy is NOT "sexy" and they DON'T have a good relationship. 

In a similar fashion, the claim that cheating women act "like they're on meth addiction" so do things they deny their betrayed husband doesn't REFUTE the premise of the OP, it actually SUPPORTS it. Affair sex is different BECAUSE it's just about sexual desire and the relationship. That's why they get into the affair to begin with. They don't do the affair because the affair partner will be a good provider, their parents pressured them to enter a relationship, because he'd be a good father, or ANY of the things beside raw sexual desire that women choose husbands for. So, hell yes, the "meth addiction" actions are DEFINITELY a measure of the attraction they feel. So rather than refute the contention that a woman's refusal to do a sexual activity reflects her feelings with the guy/relationship, it SUPPORTS it. In fact, it's the best example because all complicating factors of home, finances, etc. are stripped away. It's all about sex. (In fact, isn't the phrase "it was just sex" a common refrain by waywards?)

So, yes, FW, enthusiasm IS what it's about. I think the negative posters just don't realize how much a refusal can potentially say about enthusiasm, especially when there are no counterbalancing POSITIVE examples of enthusiasm.


----------



## Knips

happiness27 said:


> oldtruck said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss a key fact.
> 
> It is not that a wife did "anal" (used for example) with her previous BF's and will not
> do it with her husband.
> 
> It is the husband that never got to do anal. He always wanted to try it. His wife
> knows that her husband never got "anal" when he was single. Yet she has no
> empathy for her husband will never get to try "anal". There is no offer to do it
> few times or once a year, nothing.
> 
> 
> This sends the message to the husband that the old BF's were hotter than him
> that is why his wife gave them "anal".
> 
> Same message is sent to the BH that the WW desired the OM more than him
> because she will not do things she for her BH that she willingly did for her OM.
> 
> "BH you are the beta drone to be my provider. You do not excite me enough to
> have porn star sex with you. I do not have to make the extra effort with sex to
> keep you married to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a husband ask a wife to do anal when she didn't want to? Anal takes a LOT of effort - whether you are gay (man) or straight woman. You have to make sure you are cleaned out and watch what you ate beforehand, etc. - then, think about the guy putting his beautiful clean penis in a hole that is riddled with bacterial waste product so he dang well better be using a condom. Then there's the total lack of lubrication which...requires rather specific lubrications. And if you go to the sex shops, there's even videos on how to do anal safely so you don't hurt each other...particularly the receiver.
> 
> Anal sex can lead to anal incontinence and several other health factors and, although no studies presently indicate that anal sex CAUSES rectoceles, women who have had rectocele repair should avoid anal sex.
> 
> If people LIKE anal sex and approach it safely (condoms), and they both just get a real kick out of it, like their sex life wouldn't feel fulfilled without it, then those folks must do what they gotta do. Makes no difference
Click to expand...

 Imo it is not like that. I only have anal sex with my wife if she wants it.(and she likes it) She needs to be very aroused. The only lubrication used is the vaginal wetness. (so we do first Piv sex) When wet enough and when she is fully relaxed and aroused i gently go for anal sex. It isn't dirty at all. no smells. Only be carefull when having piv sex after anal you better clean yourself first. Don't wanna cause urinal trace infections with her. But if man and woman trust each other and both like this sex act there is no problem.


----------



## 269370

Those posters focus too much on the form rather than context; they focus on the guy’s ‘childish’ reaction and ignore the meaning. While the men focus on the meaning and empathise that the form to bring this issue up can take different shapes. So both are talking completely past each other and argue a different aspect. 
I just want to reassure everyone that by not having anal, people are not missing out on that much...


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## 269370

happiness27 said:


> Well, I don't have sex every 20 minutes so...lol...but, yeah, I don't want my man to encounter bits and pieces of TP or accumulations from the day and I want my various beds to be clean, fresh places. I've said this before but sometimes I regret taking science classes because I know more than I wish I knew. Plus, I guess over the years having babies and all the woman exams and all the stuff that goes on with people looking at my V for medical purposes - that gets in your head after awhile and it's hard to make it go away. I think my husband would agree with you, though - he's just all in whenever, wherever, whatever. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I think there was a guy on some news show not that long ago who was talking about a study that a group had finally done on the female orgasm - so little has been studied or is known about it. He was saying that the female "penis" - which all fetuses carry the potential early on of becoming male or female - that the female penile tissue is thought to be spread out into the vagina so that the potential in female orgasm is vast and sadly not studied or talked about as much - but that tissue is more wide spread with thousands of nerve endings.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly, we can see in porn - the majority of which focuses on the male sex act upon a female. There really isn't much female exploration in porn - it's so much pointed at the gratification of men...somewhat (a lot) influencing behavior of women to some unknown degree. Of course, only being female, I really don't understand how a man's body works or how it feels to him. But I do know that an orgasm for me, as a woman is felt as a radiation and not centered on one area.
> 
> 
> 
> But show me a guy who has his face genuinely in a woman's lady parts and her in actuality having a great time and an orgasm and I could get INTO that. And it would be VERY helpful to women - a real boost to know that our pleasure is worth a marquee.




For the cleanliness ‘freaks’, I recommend the Japanese Toto toilets; they wash you, clean you, sing to you, warm and open the seat for you, greet you, love you and even massage you where it tickles....We have them all around the house and you never need to complain about anything what your wife has done with anyone before; when you come out all clean, happy and satisfied, it’s your wife who will be wondering what you have been up to with your toilet 
Friends visit us only to have a sublime anal experience of the Toto kind. In Japan - the cleanest anal nation on earth - they have them everywhere as well.

https://youtu.be/Du9ItTsEpYE

(No connection with the product aside from being a very satisfied customer. Did I say satisfied? I meant orgasmically ecstatic). 🤪



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## oldtruck

happiness27 said:


> Did anybody on this thread ever get specific about what sex acts we are talking about wherein men feel deprived?


It is not about the act but by the denial where the importance is.


----------



## oldtruck

happiness27 said:


> If I was in this scenario where a guy wanted to do anal that badly, I'd say: "You first" and strap one on.


Focusing on one word to make a retort when all that word "anal" was used
as an example. Easier to type anal then sexual act denied.
Your you first statement then implies that you would then receive anal second.
Congratulations on giving up something to your husband that you did
before (response is based on your on admission that you would
do him first and he do you second) but have always denied him.


----------



## oldtruck

happiness27 said:


> Why would a husband ask a wife to do anal when she didn't want to? Anal takes a LOT of effort - whether you are gay (man) or straight woman. You have to make sure you are cleaned out and watch what you ate beforehand, etc. - then, think about the guy putting his beautiful clean penis in a hole that is riddled with bacterial waste product so he dang well better be using a condom. Then there's the total lack of lubrication which...requires rather specific lubrications. And if you go to the sex shops, there's even videos on how to do anal safely so you don't hurt each other...particularly the receiver.
> 
> Anal sex can lead to anal incontinence and several other health factors and, although no studies presently indicate that anal sex CAUSES rectoceles, women who have had rectocele repair should avoid anal sex.
> 
> If people LIKE anal sex and approach it safely (condoms), and they both just get a real kick out of it, like their sex life wouldn't feel fulfilled without it, then those folks must do what they gotta do. Makes no difference to me.
> 
> But, SERIOUSLY, there are so many amazing sexual activities one can do that I can't imagine a guy sitting around bemoaning the fact that he doesn't get anal. If that is the way he is going to take his thinking, he needs to cut himself loose from his relationship and go out and get what he wants. Or, if his wife is amenable, get it from elsewhere in a hall pass or couple swap.
> 
> I would NEVER make a person do something sexually or guilt them into something they didn't want to do. That's abusive, immature and unstable.


"Anal" is used as an example because many people do not want to do it.
Health education on anal, as with all education is good. However the point
is not whether anal sex is healthy rather the point of the thread is it right
for a wife to deny various forms of sex that she had before she met her
husband.

I think there are examples where a wife should say no.
Examples where the wife should take one for the team, at least once.

Sex in all relationships has always been a mutual agreement reached
between the two people. Give and take.

To take a position that every case the wife should say no turns the denial
debate into black an white. To ignore the many different shades and colors
takes away the compromising in the relationship.


----------



## oldtruck

Faithful Wife said:


> If the whole issue is actually “you were enthusiastic with previous partners but you aren’t with me”, then I would agree, she probably isn’t as into her current guy.
> 
> It is a weird way to get around to just saying it’s about enthusiasm. Coming up with hypothetical situations isn’t necessary.
> 
> Yep - if she was enthusiastic about sex in general with others and she isn’t with you, then she’s either not in love with you, the sex isn’t good for her, or some similar problem.


So why did she marry him?
So how is the husband to feel once he finds this out?


----------



## personofinterest

oldtruck said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the whole issue is actually “you were enthusiastic with previous partners but you aren’t with me”, then I would agree, she probably isn’t as into her current guy.
> 
> It is a weird way to get around to just saying it’s about enthusiasm. Coming up with hypothetical situations isn’t necessary.
> 
> Yep - if she was enthusiastic about sex in general with others and she isn’t with you, then she’s either not in love with you, the sex isn’t good for her, or some similar problem.
> 
> 
> 
> So why did she marry him?
> So how is the husband to feel once he finds this out?
Click to expand...

 Again, that is not the actual topic of this thread. The actual topic of the thread is that if wife does not do X sex act for husband wife must not be attracted to husband. If wife did X ever in her life and didnt need therapy, wife better do it for hubby. Isn't this just a variation on the back seat of the car, "if you love me you will," thing BOYS did in high school


----------



## 247769

I believe it's more about attitude and enthusiasm more than a specific act at least that's my situation. If both spouses approach sex with the same excitement and desires, then for one to say no to a certain act such as anal, won't matter and won't demish the experience. 

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## personofinterest

peterrabbit said:


> I believe it's more about attitude and enthusiasm more than a specific act at least that's my situation. If both spouses approach sex with the same excitement and desires, then for one to say no to a certain act such as anal, won't matter and won't demish the experience.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


 Sadly, that was not the topic of this thread or the topic of the top post. It really is about making sure you get that 1 sex act that Bob got 10 years ago. That's why so many of us think it's ridiculous. No one would think wanting an enthusiastic sex partner is ridiculous.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, this situation actually is kind of the OPPOSITE of the OP's topic.
> 
> When you boil it down, this revolves around whether a refusal to do something sexual (which you are still physically capable of doing) that was enthusiastically and willfully done with others sends a nonverbal message. I say it does. It is one message in a sea of messages that occur during a relationship, but it still sends a message. In the right context, that message is about the level about the level of engagement/desire/enthusiasm for the current partner.
> 
> Now, in some cases, like #samyeagar, there is such an obvious enthusiasm in other sexual aspects. that this message is modified by context. It doesn't become a message of "I'm not as strongly attracted to you as others in my past", it becomes "I really don't like this one activity".
> 
> Now, in your case, the guy was WILLING to give you boob attention, he just didn't have the skills because his heart (or his animal lust) just wasn't into it. "Not a boob guy", as you say. Therefore, there is no issue about his level of involvement for YOU, because he was "in the top 5" in other ways. In fact, his willingness to try to do things for you (even though his skill were poor) actually demonstrate how actively engaged he was with you. So, in essence, he was doing what is the exact OPPOSITE of the topic of the OP.
> 
> *What would be more analogous to the OP situation is if he flatly REFUSED to even give you an ATTEMPT at boob stimulation. Then, if you found out (it doesn't matter how) that with his prior relationship right before you, not only was he a "boob guy", he was apparently really good at it, and demonstrated an unbridled enthusiasm for the whole endeavor. Don't you think at some level you (or any woman) might feel that the issue isn't that he doesn't like boobs, he just doesn't like YOUR boobs?*
> 
> I mean, I think that's sending a message through actions (or non-actions). The message may or may not be true, but I think it's still out there.
> 
> *And, in the end, don't you think that posters who can't even CONCEDE that a NORMAL person might feel the message in the bolded area above, and instead bash the person for feeling that way, aren't a little lacking empathy?*
> 
> Does it make you:
> - "whiny" because you asked him for boob stimulation when he willingly, enthusiastically and skillfully did it for other women?
> - "fragile ego" because you feel hurt by this rejection?
> - trying to "check a box" because you want this one sexual aspect, when he's still providing other sexual acts (genital, oral, etc.)?
> - "insecure" (in a flawed way) because it makes you wonder what it is about YOUR boobs that won't drive him to the same level of animal lust toward them he had clearly demonstrated with other women?
> - "badgering/bullying" if you persistently ask because "no means no" and he has the right to refuse to do an act without harrassment?
> - "superficial/selfish" because you end the relationship over his refusal to do for you what he has done for other women?
> 
> (These are the kinds of hateful posts toward men we have seen in this thread).
> 
> Is a post from a guy stating, "I would hate to be forced to do a sexual act like that if I was against it. I'm glad I'm in a relationship with my wonderful sexy wife with whom I feel safe to explore her boobs TOGETHER," really a helpful post? Would that sound somewhat self-absorbed, and somewhat insulting? Doesn't it have an implication that you are somehow "flawed" because you can't make your partner feel the same way enough to touch your boobs?
> 
> Should you just be expected to go without boob attention because it would be "juvenile/selfish/immature/whatever" to keep demanding it?
> 
> I really feel for the OP and other guys who have been through this. Not all of them get the positive reinforcement that #samyeagar gets which counteracts and provides context for any refusal/limitations by Mrs. Samyeagar. I actually speculate that most do not. Although there are no such refusals from Mrs. Wolfman (in fact, without going into details, her offers are more than I accept), I can empathize with the plight of these guys like the OP, and feel that the bashing is completely unjustified.
> 
> ************
> as a side note:
> And I think all the posts of "that's what you get for talking about the past", etc. are evading the question. However he got there, the OP is in a situation, and he wanted to talk about his feelings. Maybe that advice would help future relationships, but it won't help the current situation.....just as someone who is drowning in debt and asking if they should refinance vs filing for bankruptcy is not helped by comments like "you shouldn't have bought that expensive car" or "you shouldn't have gone on that vacation", etc.


Wolf - I was in no way trying to compare my feelings with the thread topic. What I was doing was musing about my lovers and what I had done with some and then the contrast with others, and was talking about my decision making processes about lovers and various sexual activity. I was sharing this as a way of showing that my thoughts were not about who I loved more. I wanted to show how my real sex life is not full of things I reserve for some guys and not others, and how in fact, I don’t get to just dictate how any lover will be with me. Sorry that wasn’t clear. If you read my post again with that in mind it may make more sense.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolfman1968 said:


> I think the enthusiasm is EXACTLY the issue. Because a refusal to do things certainly can look like a lack of enthusiasm, and can nonverbally send that message. Because I believe that in most cases, physical or other limitations aside, the difference between being up for doing things that are more edgy and refusing is primarily the relationship/sexual desire that the woman (in the case of the OP being discussed) feels.
> 
> #samyeagar has posted that there are things off the table for him which his wife has done with others, but it's not an issue for him because he gets so much reinforcement of her enthusiasm in other ways.
> 
> The negative posters (mostly women) on here keep implying or outright saying that if a guy has a problem with not being allowed/offered a sexual activity that was ENTHUSIASTICALLY performed with a different partner previously, then it's the guy's problem for not being able to deal with it. I, on the other hand, believe that 9 times out of 10, it's probably the woman's fault, for not showing enough enthusiasm in other ways so that it becomes a non-issue, like it does for #samyeagar.
> 
> Because it the end, it IS about the feelings about the relationship and sexual feelings toward their partner which determines what a woman is up for. And so, actions become a reflection of those feelings.
> 
> The women posters seem to try to deny it, but their posts only seem to reinforce it. The posts run something like, "The guy is insecure and selfish and flawed to think that his partner's refusal means anything but her own limitations that he is not respecting. I am glad I am not with a guy like that. My sexy husband is so respective that we explore TOGETHER things that I have never done with anyone else." What the hell? Don't they realize that they just PROVED the premise? That they just showed that their willingness to explore with their "sexy husband" is a reflection of their relationship and desire for him? That they just proved that an UNWILLINGNESS to explore means the guy is NOT "sexy" and they DON'T have a good relationship.
> 
> In a similar fashion, the claim that cheating women act "like they're on meth addiction" so do things they deny their betrayed husband doesn't REFUTE the premise of the OP, it actually SUPPORTS it. Affair sex is different BECAUSE it's just about sexual desire and the relationship. That's why they get into the affair to begin with. They don't do the affair because the affair partner will be a good provider, their parents pressured them to enter a relationship, because he'd be a good father, or ANY of the things beside raw sexual desire that women choose husbands for. So, hell yes, the "meth addiction" actions are DEFINITELY a measure of the attraction they feel. So rather than refute the contention that a woman's refusal to do a sexual activity reflects her feelings with the guy/relationship, it SUPPORTS it. In fact, it's the best example because all complicating factors of home, finances, etc. are stripped away. It's all about sex. (In fact, isn't the phrase "it was just sex" a common refrain by waywards?)
> 
> So, yes, FW, enthusiasm IS what it's about. I think the negative posters just don't realize how much a refusal can potentially say about enthusiasm, especially when there are no counterbalancing POSITIVE examples of enthusiasm.


Ok Wolf - as I already said, YES if she isn’t enthusiastic about sex generally, she isn’t in love with him or the sex sucks with him.

Now what?


----------



## Faithful Wife

oldtruck said:


> So why did she marry him?
> So how is the husband to feel once he finds this out?


WHy did she marry him? Who knows? She thought it would get better in the sex department maybe?

How is the husband supposed to feel? He should feel like he is going to run far and fast away.


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## 269370

But wanting a partner who shows the same level of enthusiasm could also be viewed as whiny and entitled. I mean in theory if your partner just isn’t as into certain acts or is not wired to show the same kind of enthusiasm and passion, is it reasonable to demand and expect it anyway? 
Where do you stop with this thinking? 

On the other spectrum: will re-enacting all the sex acts that a partner did with someone else years ago actually erase all the mind movies? Is it really about ticking off the list and not simply about retrospective jealousy? 
I’m not sure people are clear what the issues are. Everyone seems to be discussing something different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 247769

I guess the way I look at it is two fold, the reason they won't do it and the reason I get upset because they won't. It's a slippery slope. The why seems to be the question we all want answered. Will it cause them to see me as or compare me to the other person? If they've moved on from that person will it bring up old feelings? The last thing any of us want it for our spouses to think of a former lover while having sex with us. Why do I feel the way I do about it? Does it make me feel justified to have done everything they've ever done with everyone else? It this the measure of proof they love us? Each of us has the answer these questions for ourselves. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar

inmyprime said:


> But wanting a partner who shows the same level of enthusiasm could also be viewed as whiny and entitled. I mean in theory if your partner just isn’t as into certain acts or is not wired to show the same kind of enthusiasm and passion, is it reasonable to demand and expect it anyway?
> Where do you stop with this thinking?
> 
> On the other spectrum: will re-enacting all the sex acts that a partner did with someone else years ago actually erase all the mind movies? Is it really about ticking off the list and not simply about retrospective jealousy?
> I’m not sure people are clear what the issues are. Everyone seems to be discussing something different.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I imagine the people who would get hung up on specific acts would tend more towards Act's of Service love language, people who want the verbal reassurance of sexual desire and satisfaction would be Words of Affirmation, people who frequent, active sex are probably Physical Touch people, and so on and so forth.

All else being equal, willingness to engage in, and actually engaging in varied sex acts with a partner is a reasonable gauge and measure of how sexually attracted the partner is to the other. I really don't think there is any debating that, though some will insist on clinging to that elusive fifth dentist and try. I think some people are deliberately obfuscating the issues being talked about here.

In the case of me and my wife, there are things off the table that she has done before, but those are things that are physically painful for her, that she simply can't physically do any more, things done under duress and desperation. There are however things that she happily and enthusiastically does that she rarely, if ever did before. On balance, it is clear through her actions that she is more into me than anyone else she has been with. Or at least into me enough that we are both having awesome, satisfying sex.

As brutal as most of the details of her past have been to hear and deal with, over time, I have been able to form a more complete picture of her sexuality, which only reinforces my feelings that she is in fact really into me. There has been a consistency through out the time we have known each other, and different things I have learned have all maintained and support that consistency.

That said, based on the basics that I knew before we started actually dating, there are some things that if they weren't there, and weren't there quickly, that I would have moved on because it would have been clear to me through action, and inaction that she was not into me the way I needed her to be to have a satisfying relationship with her.


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## Faithful Wife

peterrabbit said:


> I guess the way I look at it is two fold, the reason they won't do it and the reason I get upset because they won't. It's a slippery slope. The why seems to be the question we all want answered. Will it cause them to see me as or compare me to the other person? If they've moved on from that person will it bring up old feelings? The last thing any of us want it for our spouses to think of a former lover while having sex with us. Why do I feel the way I do about it? Does it make me feel justified to have done everything they've ever done with everyone else? It this the measure of proof they love us? Each of us has the answer these questions for ourselves.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


Peter, is anything in this scenario true for you or is it all speculation of how you would feel? If you have actual experience with this topic, would you mind sharing more?


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## 247769

It's more speculation than experience, I know myself so I haven't asked what she's done before me. So if this causes me to lose credibility I'll back out, I did go back and read the OP's opening post and I am a little off topic so I apologise for straying.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I think some people are deliberately obfuscating the issues being talked about here..


The problem for me is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone here who is in the hypothetical situation. So now we are all just debating what some non existent woman’s motivation is for doing it with Non Existent Bob and not with Non Existent Husband.

If someone has an actual scenario that is about the hypothetical scenario, I’d be interested in their thoughts and would respond to their actual feelings.


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## Faithful Wife

peterrabbit said:


> It's more speculation than experience, I know myself so I haven't asked what she's done before me. So if this causes me to lose credibility I'll back out, I did go back and read the OP's opening post and I am a little off topic so I apologise for straying.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


Oh no, you were not off topic. I was just thinking maybe you had some relevant experience based on that post I quoted. No worries, your views are still welcomed of course! It a free for all.


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## Anastasia6

oldtruck said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anybody on this thread ever get specific about what sex acts we are talking about wherein men feel deprived?
> 
> 
> 
> It is not about the act but by the denial where the importance is.
Click to expand...

Oh contrary, anal, threesome and bondage are important. Which were the acts. All of these are specific acts. Anal is very tricky. You can definitely outgrow it. A threesome isn't the best way to ensure your marriages moves forward. While some relationships survive bringing a third party into the bedroom many dont. Particularly if one party wasn't up for it to begin with yet alone if minor jealous is already shown with previous partners think how much could come with new ones.

The acts do matter. And I didn't see where OP said his wife isn't enthusiastic about sex with him. He said that she had done these things in the past with a BF said she had enjoyed it (20 years ago) but was a different person now and didn't want to do them now.

You aren't allowed to change in 20 years or you don't love your husband. You aren't allowed to have sex with your husband in a variety of ways and love your husband unless after bearing two children's and a half a lifetime of devotion let him enthusiastically shove his penis in your ass.

And you wonder why the women are having trouble with this whole premise. You are boiling there whole life down to a few sex acts that many people refuse like a threesome. Maybe men do feel loved through sex but OP is getting sex. On the flip side you are ignoring something too. Women don't relate sex as love. So she isn't showing a lack of love by not doing these things. It isn't how she thinks about love. 

It's only how this forum chooses to interpret it.


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## personofinterest

I am certainly not obfuscating. I will state flat out that if you press your wife for details about past sex acts and then you whine because she will not do X with you, and YOU think you are the sole arbitor of what constitutes "a good reason not to," you are selfish, entitled, and petty.

Period. Full stop.

You can feel "bad" about the past and let it color the rest of your marriage if you need to. I offer zero sympathy.

Now, if you have a cold fish wife who performs duty sex in general, you get loads of sympathy from me. If your wife still wants to bang Bob, you get tons of sympathy from me and anger at your wife.

But whining over X act and dismissing her reason because your ego is hurty? Nope. Sorry


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> The problem for me is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone here who is in the hypothetical situation. So now we are all just debating what some non existent woman’s motivation is for doing it with Non Existent Bob and not with Non Existent Husband.
> 
> If someone has an actual scenario that is about the hypothetical scenario, I’d be interested in their thoughts and would respond to their actual feelings.


My wife and I had this exact, non hypothetical situation, that I have brought up multiple times, that people have seemed uninterested in discussing  I suspect because people can't twist and strawman the hell out of a real situation the way they can a hypothetical. And also possibly because in my situation, it is the woman who had these feelings.

The deal with the sex toys. AT the beginning of our relationship, I told my wife I was not really interested in using them. Didn't like them. She took that at face value and accepted it as something she could deal with. We tried using them a few times, but she could pick up on the disassociation, and it was somewhat awkward, and that was that. Fast forward a couple of years when she learned that I had engaged in sex toy play with my ex wife, and not just a little bit of it, but pretty extensively and regularly.

My wife does tend to have a stream of consciousness mode where she expresses things as she is feeling them, in their raw unfiltered state, and she let loose. Considering objectively what she was saying, without getting all defensive, she was asking some very valid questions. Why is it that I could do that regularly with someone who was verbally, physically, sexually, abusive, wasn't attracted to me, yet couldn't, and wouldn't with someone who loved me, thought I hung the moon, was crazy horny for me. Add into that the fact that my ex-wife was objectively drop dead gorgeous, perfect tight little body, whereas my wife struggles with her own self-esteem, only magnified things. Questioning why, if I was so averse to it, would I go through that for my ex-wife, and not put any effort into doing it for my current wife. Was I more sexually into my ex?

And you know what...taking a step back, the sex toy play my wife wanted was not anything that caused me physical harm, wasn't really degrading, was something I did engage in willingly. I could have said no to my ex-wife the way I said no to my current wife. It was something I know my current wife wanted, would derive a lot of pleasure from sharing with me, even if I didn't get as much out of it as she would, NSA pleasure for her. All completely valid points and feelings.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> My wife and I had this exact, non hypothetical situation, that I have brought up multiple times, that people have seemed uninterested in discussing  I suspect because people can't twist and strawman the hell out of a real situation the way they can a hypothetical. And also possibly because in my situation, it is the woman who had these feelings.
> 
> The deal with the sex toys. AT the beginning of our relationship, I told my wife I was not really interested in using them. Didn't like them. She took that at face value and accepted it as something she could deal with. We tried using them a few times, but she could pick up on the disassociation, and it was somewhat awkward, and that was that. Fast forward a couple of years when she learned that I had engaged in sex toy play with my ex wife, and not just a little bit of it, but pretty extensively and regularly.
> 
> My wife does tend to have a stream of consciousness mode where she expresses things as she is feeling them, in their raw unfiltered state, and she let loose. Considering objectively what she was saying, without getting all defensive, she was asking some very valid questions. Why is it that I could do that regularly with someone who was verbally, physically, sexually, abusive, wasn't attracted to me, yet couldn't, and wouldn't with someone who loved me, thought I hung the moon, was crazy horny for me. Add into that the fact that my ex-wife was objectively drop dead gorgeous, perfect tight little body, whereas my wife struggles with her own self-esteem, only magnified things. Questioning why, if I was so averse to it, would I go through that for my ex-wife, and not put any effort into doing it for my current wife. Was I more sexually into my ex?
> 
> And you know what...taking a step back, the sex toy play my wife wanted was not anything that caused me physical harm, wasn't really degrading, was something I did engage in willingly. I could have said no to my ex-wife the way I said no to my current wife. It was something I know my current wife wanted, would derive a lot of pleasure from sharing with me, even if I didn't get as much out of it as she would, NSA pleasure for her. All completely valid points and feelings.


Yes that’s a good example of the hypothetical scenario.

And both of you worked through it, so good job.


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> But wanting a partner who shows the same level of enthusiasm could also be viewed as whiny and entitled.k


I don't agree that that is the rub. The rub is comparing and measuring to someone else at some other time.


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## personofinterest

Honestly, sam, I think your wife was whining when she thought you should use toys on her just because you used them on something else.

So, yep, I'm pretty much consistent.

A subset of men here have assumed this is a gender issue. It's not, at least not for me.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes that’s a good example of the hypothetical scenario.
> 
> And both of you worked through it, so good job.


I think we were able to work through it because we are both crazy sexually attracted to each other, and very much in love. There is no attraction or love imbalance, perceived or real. It took a while to work past it, and there were some very valid and real hurt feelings on her part, but we did.

In the end, who am I to tell her her feelings are not valid for her? If this situation made her question that I may have loved and desired my ex-wife more than her, well, I trust that she is being honest about her feelings, and that she truly felt that way.


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## personofinterest

So as long as I have feelings, my spouse is required to act on those feelings in the way I expect of them.


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## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> So as long as I have feelings, my spouse is required to act on those feelings in the way I expect of them.


Absolutely not, but I think a loving spouse should consider them non defensively, as real and valid, and not be dismissive, and then act accordingly.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I think we were able to work through it because we are both crazy sexually attracted to each other, and very much in love. There is no attraction or love imbalance, perceived or real. It took a while to work past it, and there were some very valid and real hurt feelings on her part, but we did.
> 
> In the end, who am I to tell her her feelings are not valid for her? If this situation made her question that I may have loved and desired my ex-wife more than her, well, I trust that she is being honest about her feelings, and that she truly felt that way.


Yes, you had empathy and understanding for her feelings. Quite appropriate. 

I have also had much empathy and understanding for men in my life who had some unsettled feelings about me, my past, some other guy, or whatever. I’ve always heard them out, then said what was the right thing to say, then worked together on a solution (if needed). Sometimes just one conversation made the topic soothed over. I did not feel lingering resentment or feelings from them about the topics after resolved.

I haven’t had anything like “but why won’t you do that act with me since you’ve done it with someone else?” but if I did, I would listen and get to a resolution with him. Because in a real scenario with a real partner, I would know for sure that nothing I did with anyone else would mean anything about my love or desire for my current man. So I would authentically express this and he would know I was telling the truth. And I would understand that he is upset about something in his mind, not something in my mind or my heart. I would explain and smooth and love him. This is assuming we are talking about any of my actual partners, not a hypothetical man. My actual partners were loving and kind and if they were saying this to me they would express it in a way that was vulnerable and authentic. 

There’s not really anything I’ve done in the past that I wouldn’t do with a future partner I am into. And I simply wouldn’t be with a man I’m not into.

I had one partner who liked hearing about things I’ve done which he will never do. He liked living vicariously through me and not having to actually do those things himself which were interesting to him but not enough to go through with it (like the sex club story). I think he would sincerely want to do some of those things but he was a professional and always worried that he’d run into someone he knew or somehow pictures of him would end up on the internet. So hearing all the details about my journey (parts of it) was fun and sexy for him.


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## 247769

This is a good topic to discuss because we all have pasts that are very different as is our perspectives about the past and how to deal with it. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, you had empathy and understanding for her feelings. Quite appropriate.
> 
> I have also had much empathy and understanding for men in my life who had some unsettled feelings about me, my past, some other guy, or whatever. I’ve always heard them out, then said what was the right thing to say, then worked together on a solution (if needed). Sometimes just one conversation made the topic soothed over. I did not feel lingering resentment or feelings from them about the topics after resolved.
> 
> I haven’t had anything like “but why won’t you do that act with me since you’ve done it with someone else?” but if I did, I would listen and get to a resolution with him. Because in a real scenario with a real partner, I would know for sure that nothing I did with anyone else would mean anything about my love or desire for my current man. So I would authentically express this and he would know I was telling the truth. And I would understand that he is upset about something in his mind, not something in my mind or my heart. I would explain and smooth and love him. This is assuming we are talking about any of my actual partners, not a hypothetical man. My actual partners were loving and kind and if they were saying this to me they would express it in a way that was vulnerable and authentic.
> 
> There’s not really anything I’ve done in the past that I wouldn’t do with a future partner I am into. And I simply wouldn’t be with a man I’m not into.
> 
> I had one partner who liked hearing about things I’ve done which he will never do. He liked living vicariously through me and not having to actually do those things himself which were interesting to him but not enough to go through with it (like the sex club story). I think he would sincerely want to do some of those things but he was a professional and always worried that he’d run into someone he knew or somehow pictures of him would end up on the internet. So hearing all the details about my journey (parts of it) was fun and sexy for him.


Once my wife's feelings were out in the open, and I knew they did not match what I felt inside, I could totally see how the situation could lead to her feeling as if I was more into my ex-wife than her. That put me at a crossroads. I could tell her to suck it up and deal with it, or try and convey my feelings in a way that she understood, and work from there.


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## Holdingontoit

During MC, H2 once blurted out (when I was lamenting that we did not have any sex while away on vacation without the kids) "don't you think I miss days spent lying in bed making love?"
Yes, that comparison to our nonexistent sex life hurt. As much or more than the lack of sex hurt. Because that meant it wasn't just her and her hangups. It was also about me not measuring up.
Kinda stupid for a guy to ask what his wife did with other men. Kinda stupid for a wife to reply with anything other than "whatever I tried with other men that I don't do with you, you can be sure I did not enjoy it".
"I used to be into that, but I am not into that anymore" is a message no husband needs to hear. Better to lie and say you tried it and never liked it.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Once my wife's feelings were out in the open, and I knew they did not match what I felt inside, I could totally see how the situation could lead to her feeling as if I was more into my ex-wife than her. That put me at a crossroads. I could tell her to suck it up and deal with it, or try and convey my feelings in a way that she understood, and work from there.


Right. But this also includes your personal history with her and your love for her and your understanding of her.

If she were just saying “I don’t care - do it with me or else I will know you don’t love me” and if she were being entitled rather than being vulnerable, I think you may have just told her to deal with it.

It is hard for all of us to imagine these conversations without putting real people and their real behaviors into it. I can empathize with an actual partner about nearly anything. Because I’m not going to be with partners I don’t love and understand.

I had said several pages back that if a partner of mine had this issue with me and he expressed his vulnerability about it authentically, I would have empathy and talk with him. And although not this issue exactly, I have soothed several partners over things that others could consider weird, silly, or insecure. Because I knew them and because they were forthcoming and sincere about their feelings I was empathetic and soothing. All turned out well every time.


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## Personal

peterrabbit said:


> I guess the way I look at it is two fold, the reason they won't do it and the reason I get upset because they won't. It's a slippery slope. The why seems to be the question we all want answered. Will it cause them to see me as or compare me to the other person? If they've moved on from that person will it bring up old feelings? The last thing any of us want it for our spouses to think of a former lover while having sex with us. Why do I feel the way I do about it? Does it make me feel justified to have done everything they've ever done with everyone else? It this the measure of proof they love us? Each of us has the answer these questions for ourselves.





Faithful Wife said:


> Peter, is anything in this scenario true for you or is it all speculation of how you would feel? If you have actual experience with this topic, would you mind sharing more?


When I was in my third longest lasting sexual relationship, I was with a woman who had been with more people than I who enjoyed a rich sex life. Who wouldn't do one thing with me despite having done such things in the past with others. Yet I had no problem with that at all and never brought it up, or felt that she owed me such acts.

Each sexual relationship for me has been it's own organic thing, I haven't cared for chasing the shadows of others. Plus outside of my first sexual relationship, I've always figured sexually active people have often done all sorts of things sexually. Of which I also presume for the most part like me, they have enjoyed doing it. I don't feel an entitlement to the past or for what they've done.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. But this also includes your personal history with her and your love for her and your understanding of her.
> 
> If she were just saying “I don’t care - do it with me or else I will know you don’t love me” and if she were being entitled rather than being vulnerable, I think you may have just told her to deal with it.
> 
> It is hard for all of us to imagine these conversations without putting real people and their real behaviors into it. I can empathize with an actual partner about nearly anything. Because I’m not going to be with partners I don’t love and understand.
> 
> I had said several pages back that if a partner of mine had this issue with me and he expressed his vulnerability about it authentically, I would have empathy and talk with him. And although not this issue exactly, I have soothed several partners over things that others could consider weird, silly, or insecure. Because I knew them and because they were forthcoming and sincere about their feelings I was empathetic and soothing. All turned out well every time.


The question becomes are they expressing feelings from a position of vulnerability or selfish entitlement and manipulation. I know, love and trust my wife, so I have to presume, regardless of the intensity or clumsiness of her expression, it was coming from a place of vulnerability. In short, I give her the benefit of the doubt, and not immediately assume the worst.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> The question becomes are they expressing feelings from a position of vulnerability or selfish entitlement and manipulation. I know, love and trust my wife, so I have to presume, regardless of the intensity or clumsiness of her expression, it was coming from a place of vulnerability. In short, I give her the benefit of the doubt.


Yes and everyone can understand this. 

When hypothetical people are used in the scenario, it gets too fuzzy for anyone to agree on what the hypothetical person’s motives and actions were. They are hypothetical after all, and can’t come explain their motives.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes and everyone can understand this.
> 
> When hypothetical people are used in the scenario, it gets too fuzzy for anyone to agree on what the hypothetical person’s motives and actions were. They are hypothetical after all, and can’t come explain their motives.


Which then gets to the core personality of the person responding. With nothing but their base reaction to go on, Do they project the best or worst? Do they react with empathy or defensiveness?


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Which then gets to the core personality of the person responding. With nothing but their base reaction to go on, Do they project the best or worst? Do they react with empathy or defensiveness?


You are always a model of poise, Sam.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> You are always a model of poise, Sam.


It's why I don't need a big truck for the chicks to dig me


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## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Once my wife's feelings were out in the open, and I knew they did not match what I felt inside, I could totally see how the situation could lead to her feeling as if I was more into my ex-wife than her. That put me at a crossroads. *I could tell her to suck it up and deal with it, or try and convey my feelings in a way that she understood, and work from there.*


Yes, yes, yes! The objection I have is the notion that the ONE way to convey these feelings is to perform a given act or acts.


----------



## Livvie

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem for me is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone here who is in the hypothetical situation. So now we are all just debating what some non existent woman’s motivation is for doing it with Non Existent Bob and not with Non Existent Husband.
> 
> If someone has an actual scenario that is about the hypothetical scenario, I’d be interested in their thoughts and would respond to their actual feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I had this exact, non hypothetical situation, that I have brought up multiple times, that people have seemed uninterested in discussing <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a> I suspect because people can't twist and strawman the hell out of a real situation the way they can a hypothetical. And also possibly because in my situation, it is the woman who had these feelings.
> 
> The deal with the sex toys. AT the beginning of our relationship, I told my wife I was not really interested in using them. Didn't like them. She took that at face value and accepted it as something she could deal with. We tried using them a few times, but she could pick up on the disassociation, and it was somewhat awkward, and that was that. Fast forward a couple of years when she learned that I had engaged in sex toy play with my ex wife, and not just a little bit of it, but pretty extensively and regularly.
> 
> My wife does tend to have a stream of consciousness mode where she expresses things as she is feeling them, in their raw unfiltered state, and she let loose. Considering objectively what she was saying, without getting all defensive, she was asking some very valid questions. Why is it that I could do that regularly with someone who was verbally, physically, sexually, abusive, wasn't attracted to me, yet couldn't, and wouldn't with someone who loved me, thought I hung the moon, was crazy horny for me. Add into that the fact that my ex-wife was objectively drop dead gorgeous, perfect tight little body, whereas my wife struggles with her own self-esteem, only magnified things. Questioning why, if I was so averse to it, would I go through that for my ex-wife, and not put any effort into doing it for my current wife. Was I more sexually into my ex?
> 
> And you know what...taking a step back, the sex toy play my wife wanted was not anything that caused me physical harm, wasn't really degrading, was something I did engage in willingly. I could have said no to my ex-wife the way I said no to my current wife. It was something I know my current wife wanted, would derive a lot of pleasure from sharing with me, even if I didn't get as much out of it as she would, NSA pleasure for her. All completely valid points and feelings.
Click to expand...

Sam,

I am wondering WHY you did it for your ex wife and didn't want to with your current wife, what was the initial reason?


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It's why I don't need a big truck for the chicks to dig me


It’s true Sam. You are a calm, clear, concise thinker. Very attractive.


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## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> If the whole issue is actually “you were enthusiastic with previous partners but you aren’t with me”, then I would agree, she probably isn’t as into her current guy.
> 
> It is a weird way to get around to just saying it’s about enthusiasm. Coming up with hypothetical situations isn’t necessary.
> 
> Yep - if she was enthusiastic about sex in general with others and she isn’t with you, then she’s either not in love with you, the sex isn’t good for her, or some similar problem.


This is probably the answer.

Guys think of sex acts performed as a proxy for enthusiasm. If she did it for others, then that removes "she just doesn't do it" from the list of possible reasons and increases the likelyhood that it's due to a lack of enthusiasm 

Women have a huge problem with what they see as guys feeling "entitled" to certain sex acts. I suspect they'd understand lower levels of enthusiasm as a possible indicator of how "into" their husbands they are.

There's some science behind the idea that there is often an "ick" factor about certain sex acts for women. It is often overcome when the level of arousal is high enough, so there's that.

The other thing I find interesting is that women view men as having "fragile male egos". Labeling it that way seems to designed to deal with the cognitive dissonance of claiming that they want men to share more of their emotional side while, in actuality, often being repulsed by it. If something's due to a "fragile male ego", then they feel okay dismissing it.

My wife mentioned once that my touching her boobs during non-sexual times sometimes irritated her (interestingly, I had started doing this more as a way of raising the sexual tension level in our relationship and, it pretty much worked).

I immediately stopped.

She noticed and asked why.

I said that it was because it sometimes irritated her and I had no way of knowing when those times might be. It wasn't my desire to irritate her (quite the opposite), so I stopped (she occasionally mentions that she misses it).

She blamed my "fragile male ego".

My wife used to travel regularly and, when I picked her up at the airport she would go on for an hour talking about everything that happened. I asked her what would happen if I told her that her doing that sometimes irritated me.

She said that she would immediately stop doing it.

Same thing, male egos or fragile egos have nothing to do with it.


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> Sam,
> 
> I am wondering WHY you did it for your ex wife and didn't want to with your current wife, what was the initial reason?


This is a tough one to answer because I have to be very mindful of not rationalizing when ultimately it boils down to me just not feeling like it. I just didn't want to. I can look at all the other things and honestly know that I do a great job as a husband and lover, so why should this one thing matter. But is it really up to me to dictate to her the things that matter to her?

I think a deeper reason I did not want to is that sex toys have always caused me to feel a certain type of disassociation with my partner, including my ex-wife. In the context of that marriage, I could actually use them as a way of avoiding intimacy with her. An avoidance and disassociation I did not want to feel with my current wife. To complicate that line of thinking though is perhaps the biggest fundamental difference in the sexuality of my wife and I. She does not see any dependency between sex and love. They are often present coincidentally, but one does not depend on the other. She is more than capable of fully enjoying disassociated sex. Me, not so much.


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> Again, that is not the actual topic of this thread. The actual topic of the thread is that if wife does not do X sex act for husband wife must not be attracted to husband.


Actually, I believe it is. What men are seeing as enthusiasm and desire women are seeing as the below.



personofinterest said:


> If wife did X ever in her life and didnt need therapy, wife better do it for hubby. Isn't this just a variation on the back seat of the car, "if you love me you will," thing BOYS did in high school


Which is a good insight as to why women here are reacting as they are.


----------



## Buddy400

peterrabbit said:


> It's more speculation than experience, I know myself so I haven't asked what she's done before me. So if this causes me to lose credibility I'll back out, I did go back and read the OP's opening post and I am a little off topic so I apologise for straying.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


I don't know if any man here other than the OP has actually had the experienced his wife denying him sexual acts that she happily did with a previous partner.

That doesn't mean that we can't talk about how we believe we would react if it happened to us.


----------



## Livvie

samyeagar said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sam,
> 
> I am wondering WHY you did it for your ex wife and didn't want to with your current wife, what was the initial reason?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a tough one to answer because I have to be very mindful of not rationalizing when ultimately it boils down to me just not feeling like it. I just didn't want to. I can look at all the other things and honestly know that I do a great job as a husband and lover, so why should this one thing matter. But is it really up to me to dictate to her the things that matter to her?
> 
> I think a deeper reason I did not want to is that sex toys have always caused me to feel a certain type of disassociation with my partner, including my ex-wife. In the context of that marriage, I could actually use them as a way of avoiding intimacy with her. An avoidance and disassociation I did not want to feel with my current wife. To complicate that line of thinking though is perhaps the biggest fundamental difference in the sexuality of my wife and I. She does not see any dependency between sex and love. They are often present coincidentally, but one does not depend on the other. She is more than capable of fully enjoying disassociated sex. Me, not so much.
Click to expand...

I'd be happy with that explanation if it were me. It means you care about being connected.


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> I'd be happy with that explanation if it were me. It means you care about being connected.


Are you a person for whom that connection is paramount for having good sex? Or is disconnected sex just as easy and good?


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> I suspect because people can't twist and strawman the hell out of a real situation the way they can a hypothetical.


Yup



samyeagar said:


> In the end, who am I to tell her her feelings are not valid for her? If this situation made her question that I may have loved and desired my ex-wife more than her, well, I trust that she is being honest about her feelings, and that she truly felt that way.


If you were a woman on this thread, it wouldn't be a problem for you.



samyeagar said:


> Absolutely not, but I think a loving spouse should consider them non defensively, as real and valid, and not be dismissive, and then act accordingly.


You'd think. Unless you're dealing with a man with a fragile male ego.


----------



## dadstartingover

All-too-common scenario:

Man is in a relationship with a girl. Starts off hot and heavy. Not everything sexual is on the table, though. She will never do THAT or that OTHER thing, but everything else is fine. Dude is fine with that. He won't force her. He's not an abusive jerk.

Marriage happens. About year two or three into the marriage, he notices the frequency of sex and lustfulness goes way down. It may stop completely, especially if there are kids involved. He complains. He's shamed for complaining. He feels bad... he's not an abusive jerk, so he tries to understand. He does things to try and fix the situation. This usually involves more of the soft things, like cleaning, helping with kids, giving presents, listening more, etc.

Dead bedroom never improves. Wife has gone from being pitiful to downright mean about the situation. She becomes way more distant. Her personality changes a great deal. He snoops. She's having an affair. Then his snooping uncovers some dirty details. She's doing things with the affair partner that she wouldn't even do way back in their hot and heavy dating days. 

He is in a complete state of depression or a murderous rage at this point. 

He may vent to the internet or to others. He is made to feel like a baby or an abusive jerk for "expecting" her to do all those things all those years. Perhaps he didn't make her feel comfortable enough to open up more sexually. Perhaps his now obvious fragile man ego was a giant turnoff. Maybe he just shouldn't care and move on with his life and stop crying about it and find somebody more sexually compatible.


----------



## Faithful Wife

dadstartingover said:


> All-too-common scenario:
> 
> Man is in a relationship with a girl. Starts off hot and heavy. Not everything sexual is on the table, though. She will never do THAT or that OTHER thing, but everything else is fine. Dude is fine with that. He won't force her. He's not an abusive jerk.
> 
> Marriage happens. About year two or three into the marriage, he notices the frequency of sex and lustfulness goes way down. It may stop completely, especially if there are kids involved. He complains. He's shamed for complaining. He feels bad... he's not an abusive jerk, so he tries to understand. He does things to try and fix the situation. This usually involves more of the soft things, like cleaning, helping with kids, giving presents, listening more, etc.
> 
> Dead bedroom never improves. Wife has gone from being pitiful to downright mean about the situation. She becomes way more distant. Her personality changes a great deal. He snoops. She's having an affair. Then his snooping uncovers some dirty details. She's doing things with the affair partner that she wouldn't even do way back in their hot and heavy dating days.
> 
> He is in a complete state of depression or a murderous rage at this point.
> 
> He may vent to the internet or to others. He is made to feel like a baby or an abusive jerk for "expecting" her to do all those things all those years. Perhaps he didn't make her feel comfortable enough to open up more sexually. Perhaps his now obvious fragile man ego was a giant turnoff. Maybe he just shouldn't care and move on with his life and stop crying about it and find somebody more sexually compatible.


Except you don’t see the women on this thread going over to CWI and trashing men who have stories like this or telling them their ego was frail. 

So there is literally no comparison.


----------



## 269370

samyeagar said:


> This is a tough one to answer because I have to be very mindful of not rationalizing when ultimately it boils down to me just not feeling like it. I just didn't want to. I can look at all the other things and honestly know that I do a great job as a husband and lover, so why should this one thing matter. But is it really up to me to dictate to her the things that matter to her?
> 
> 
> 
> I think a deeper reason I did not want to is that sex toys have always caused me to feel a certain type of disassociation with my partner, including my ex-wife. In the context of that marriage, I could actually use them as a way of avoiding intimacy with her. An avoidance and disassociation I did not want to feel with my current wife. To complicate that line of thinking though is perhaps the biggest fundamental difference in the sexuality of my wife and I. She does not see any dependency between sex and love. They are often present coincidentally, but one does not depend on the other. She is more than capable of fully enjoying disassociated sex. Me, not so much.



Somebody (other than me) might point out that some men are threatened by a woman’s desire to include toys or by the fact that a woman needs to masturbate in addition to sex with her partner. Is this insecurity or a preference?
If she asked you whether she could use toys on herself during sex, would you ‘allow’ her?

(I think people should do whatever it is they want to do and it’s none of my business; this is just an illustration that you can take a line of thinking in any direction, twist it and make it whatever it is you want to suit an argument)...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't agree that that is the rub. The rub is comparing and measuring to someone else at some other time.



I’m pretty sure that if a guy is having frequent and enthusiastic sex, he’s very unlikely to complain that the wife doesn’t feel like doing one specific act she tried aeons ago.
I think the comparison part is a diversion that’s creating a lot of misunderstanding; what it really boils down to is if a wife is ****ing you regularly and eagerly.
There are actually men who get turned on by the very same thing (the idea that the wife was having hot sex with someone else) while others are disturbed or confused by it. 
I think best not to touch the subject if you know you are likely going to be uncomfortable about it. However if the wife is just not interested in you sexually at all, one starts to dig and try to find reasons and justifications to resent her. I have seen it happen so many times; and stumbling upon the fact that the wife has actually had kinky sex with other people in the past but not you, can leave one hurt and resentful. But if everything is fine in the sex department, you don’t even have any reason to go there.
That’s how I see it anyway. It would be pretty ridiculous if you have a wife that you have extremely satisfying sex with but then think to yourself, “ah, if only she would use her elbows more, like she did with her lover no 147 on that kinky night, then our sex life would be complete”. Ludicrous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cashcratebob

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


Wolfman1968 said:


> I think the enthusiasm is EXACTLY the issue. Because a refusal to do things certainly can look like a lack of enthusiasm, and can nonverbally send that message. Because I believe that in most cases, physical or other limitations aside, the difference between being up for doing things that are more edgy and refusing is primarily the relationship/sexual desire that the woman (in the case of the OP being discussed) feels.
> 
> #samyeagar has posted that there are things off the table for him which his wife has done with others, but it's not an issue for him because he gets so much reinforcement of her enthusiasm in other ways.
> 
> The negative posters (mostly women) on here keep implying or outright saying that if a guy has a problem with not being allowed/offered a sexual activity that was ENTHUSIASTICALLY performed with a different partner previously, then it's the guy's problem for not being able to deal with it. I, on the other hand, believe that 9 times out of 10, it's probably the woman's fault, for not showing enough enthusiasm in other ways so that it becomes a non-issue, like it does for #samyeagar.
> 
> Because it the end, it IS about the feelings about the relationship and sexual feelings toward their partner which determines what a woman is up for. And so, actions become a reflection of those feelings.
> 
> The women posters seem to try to deny it, but their posts only seem to reinforce it. The posts run something like, "The guy is insecure and selfish and flawed to think that his partner's refusal means anything but her own limitations that he is not respecting. I am glad I am not with a guy like that. My sexy husband is so respective that we explore TOGETHER things that I have never done with anyone else." What the hell? Don't they realize that they just PROVED the premise? That they just showed that their willingness to explore with their "sexy husband" is a reflection of their relationship and desire for him? That they just proved that an UNWILLINGNESS to explore means the guy is NOT "sexy" and they DON'T have a good relationship.
> 
> In a similar fashion, the claim that cheating women act "like they're on meth addiction" so do things they deny their betrayed husband doesn't REFUTE the premise of the OP, it actually SUPPORTS it. Affair sex is different BECAUSE it's just about sexual desire and the relationship. That's why they get into the affair to begin with. They don't do the affair because the affair partner will be a good provider, their parents pressured them to enter a relationship, because he'd be a good father, or ANY of the things beside raw sexual desire that women choose husbands for. So, hell yes, the "meth addiction" actions are DEFINITELY a measure of the attraction they feel. So rather than refute the contention that a woman's refusal to do a sexual activity reflects her feelings with the guy/relationship, it SUPPORTS it. In fact, it's the best example because all complicating factors of home, finances, etc. are stripped away. It's all about sex. (In fact, isn't the phrase "it was just sex" a common refrain by waywards?)
> 
> So, yes, FW, enthusiasm IS what it's about. I think the negative posters just don't realize how much a refusal can potentially say about enthusiasm, especially when there are no counterbalancing POSITIVE examples of enthusiasm.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> I'd be happy with that explanation if it were me. It means you care about being connected.


Another issue this situation created was the fact that early on, I did tell her that I did not like using toys. Then later on she found out that I used them extensively. One of those things is not like the other. It opens up a very slippery slope. Why would I do that and continue doing it with my ex-wife if I disliked it so much? Why was I not man enough to just say no? Did I just not want to use them with my current wife? What is wrong with my current wife that I can't do it in a loving sexual relationship when I would in a sexually weaponized relationship? Are the other things my current wife and I doing things I don't like, but am just doing because I'm not man enough to not do them? How much of what we do is pity sex?

Those are many of the types of things my wife wanted answers to, and I think they are not unreasonable things to be considering. Irrational, maybe. Unreasonable, no.


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I’m pretty sure that if a guy is having frequent and enthusiastic sex, he’s very unlikely to complain that the wife doesn’t feel like doing one specific act she tried aeons ago.
> I think the comparison part is a diversion that’s creating a lot of misunderstanding; what it really boils down to is if a wife is ****ing you regularly and eagerly.


I am wondering what you are basing this on? This is not my recollection of most of the thread.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> I said that it was because it sometimes irritated her and I had no way of knowing when those times might be. It wasn't my desire to irritate her (quite the opposite), so I stopped (she occasionally mentions that she misses it).
> 
> She blamed my "fragile male ego".


I don’t understand her comment to you on this. So I’d say in this case, your wife was being a jerk to throw out “ego” in relation to this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Another issue this situation created was the fact that early on, I did tell her that I did not like using toys. Then later on she found out that I used them extensively. One of those things is not like the other. It opens up a very slippery slope. Why would I do that and continue doing it with my ex-wife if I disliked it so much? Why was I not man enough to just say no? Did I just not want to use them with my current wife? What is wrong with my current wife that I can't do it in a loving sexual relationship when I would in a sexually weaponized relationship? Are the other things my current wife and I doing things I don't like, but am just doing because I'm not man enough to not do them? How much of what we do is pity sex?
> 
> Those are many of the types of things my wife wanted answers to, and I think they are not unreasonable things to be considering. Irrational, maybe. Unreasonable, no.


I don’t think any of this is unreasonable, and it mirrors the only actual answers I’ve heard from women about this topic. Things like, it was a bad relationship and I don’t want to experience something that makes me remember it. And the guys have all said they would accept this answer and understand it.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t think any of this is unreasonable, and it mirrors the only actual answers I’ve heard from women about this topic. Things like, it was a bad relationship and I don’t want to experience something that makes me remember it. And the guys have all said they would accept this answer and understand it.


My dismissive, unempathetic, snarky response would be...what an insecure fragile female ego woman child...

It took us a bit of time to work through this. She had a lot of questions. Sometimes chose clumsy, imprecise words to convey her feelings. Again, irrational...quite possibly. Unreasonable, no.


----------



## Livvie

samyeagar said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy with that explanation if it were me. It means you care about being connected.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a person for whom that connection is paramount for having good sex? Or is disconnected sex just as easy and good?
Click to expand...

I've never had disconnected sex really (at least on my end, I obviously didn't know exactly how it was for partners).


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> My dismissive, unempathetic, snarky response would be...what an insecure fragile female ego woman child...


Right. But no one has given any ACTUAL scenario where any woman has said this. Women here are responding to what some of the men are saying about hypothetical women who hypothetically do something and their hypothetical reasons for it. 

Except Buddy gave an example of his wife saying something about a fragile ego, and in the example he gave, it sounds like his wife was being a jerk.


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> I've never had disconnected sex really (at least on my end, I obviously didn't know exactly how it was for partners).


I suspected as much from your response to my explanation. An explanation from someone likeminded is often times easier to understand.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> My dismissive, unempathetic, snarky response would be...what an insecure fragile female ego woman child...
> 
> It took us a bit of time to work through this. She had a lot of questions. Sometimes chose clumsy, imprecise words to convey her feelings. Again, irrational...quite possibly. Unreasonable, no.


Because being triggered by an act over a very bad relationship is EXACTLY like "gimme what he got". Yeah.....

I think this thread is so long because it would pain posters to admit that at its core, insisting on getting everything off a woman's past checklist or assuming she's selfish/not into you is unhealthy.

What if you were mugged and beaten at Coney Island, and as a result you can't go to Coney Island without remembering and being upset. I wouldn't expect you to go there because I'm not selfish.

In my first almost sexless marriage, after the first couple of years, if we DID have PIV, I had to be on top because that way he wouldn't really have to do anything. Seriously, he said that. Also, he didn;t want to be attentive or actually work at the relationship, so he'd try to make up for it by getting really good Christmas gifts, etc.

So, with new hubby, we talked about things, and I told him that I was a bit sensitive about "cowgirl" as a mainstay. Also, when he asked what I wanted for my birthday, I told him I'd rather just spend good time with him than have a gift because - weird or not - big gifts were kind of a trigger.

He could have called me whiny. He didn't. Of course, now cowgirl is not off the menu because time helped that. But those couple of things I alluded to earlier will ALWAYS be off the menu. They happened during a very bad time, and one of them in particular scared me.

Just be willing to admit that thinking you are entitled to everything everyone else got is petty. Because it is.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. But no one has given any ACTUAL scenario where any woman has said this. Women here are responding to what some of the men are saying about hypothetical women who hypothetically do something and their hypothetical reasons for it.
> 
> Except Buddy gave an example of his wife saying something about a fragile ego, and in the example he gave, it sounds like his wife was being a jerk.


Oh, you know my wife has hit me with the whole ego thing when I have called her out on her drooling over other men. In fairness, you've also called her out on being an immature jerk. Though there are some here who agree with my wife on that situation, so there ya go. But I digress


----------



## Livvie

samyeagar said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy with that explanation if it were me. It means you care about being connected.
> 
> 
> 
> Another issue this situation created was the fact that early on, I did tell her that I did not like using toys. Then later on she found out that I used them extensively. One of those things is not like the other. It opens up a very slippery slope. Why would I do that and continue doing it with my ex-wife if I disliked it so much? Why was I not man enough to just say no? Did I just not want to use them with my current wife? What is wrong with my current wife that I can't do it in a loving sexual relationship when I would in a sexually weaponized relationship? Are the other things my current wife and I doing things I don't like, but am just doing because I'm not man enough to not do them? How much of what we do is pity sex?
> 
> Those are many of the types of things my wife wanted answers to, and I think they are not unreasonable things to be considering. Irrational, maybe. Unreasonable, no.
Click to expand...

Why do you label her questions as irrational?

I think it's very rational to wonder why you did something you didn't like with someone else but refuse to do this same thing with her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Oh, you know my wife has hit me with the whole ego thing when I have called her out on her drooling over other men. In fairness, you've also called her out on being an immature jerk. Though there are some here who agree with my wife on that situation, so there ya go. But I digress


I don’t know if any woman here who would agree with your wife on that, and I’m pretty sure most of them think she’s being a jerk when she does that. I further think she’s a jerk if she tried to gas light you by claiming that your ego causes your dissatisfaction with that topic.


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> Why do you label her questions as irrational?
> 
> I think it's very rational to wonder why you did something you didn't like with someone else but refuse to do this same thing with her.


Possibly irrational in the context of the totality of our relationship. Of all the things that demonstrate my attraction and love for her, all the things I say and do, the time we spend together, that passionate enthusiastic sex life we have, keying in on one specific thing, one specific act, to bring it all into question and doubt when there is literally nothing else to call it into question, yet mountains to support it is possibly irrational...but not at all unreasonable.


----------



## Livvie

Faithful Wife said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> My dismissive, unempathetic, snarky response would be...what an insecure fragile female ego woman child...
> 
> 
> 
> Right. But no one has given any ACTUAL scenario where any woman has said this. Women here are responding to what some of the men are saying about hypothetical women who hypothetically do something and their hypothetical reasons for it.
> 
> Except Buddy gave an example of his wife saying something about a fragile ego, and in the example he gave, it sounds like his wife was being a jerk.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll disclose something. I wanted what she got. It wasn't sexual though....

I was in a relationship with a man who had issues such that I had to end the relationship. Damage from childhood made him interpret experiences as a slight, he was extremely hypersensitivite and was always a victim. In response to his feelings he would lash out, withdraw, withhold. So basically emotionally unhealthy responses that were not good for me on the receiving end made worse because they were not based in any kind of reasonable reality.

In a previous relationship, his girlfriend was also unhealthy and kind of crazy. She would freak out over nothing. Yet he stayed with her and days he kind of laughed off the screaming tantrums because she was crazy.

But overreacted and punished me over nothing. 

She could exhibit horrible tantrums and he didn't withdraw, but he withdrew from me over... nothing. 

So not sexual, but I did compare.


----------



## Tiggy!

samyeagar said:


> Possibly irrational in the context of the totality of our relationship. Of all the things that demonstrate my attraction and love for her, all the things I say and do, the time we spend together, that passionate enthusiastic sex life we have, keying in on one specific thing, one specific act, to bring it all into question and doubt when there is literally nothing else to call it into question, yet mountains to support it is possibly irrational...but not at all unreasonable.


What if she kept insisting that the fact you haven't done this sex act with s a reflection on your feelings and attraction for her (no matter how much you deny it), would that be reasonable?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know if any woman here who would agree with your wife on that, and I’m pretty sure most of them think she’s being a jerk when she does that. I further think she’s a jerk if she tried to gas light you by claiming that your ego causes your dissatisfaction with that topic.


There have been a few here who have basically told me to get over it. But anyway...I agree with your assessment, however, from my wife's point of view, she see it as me asking for ego kibbles about something that should be self evident simply by looking in a mirror.

The thing is, I have not seen this type of behaviour about anything else in our relationship, though this is pretty much the only thing I have ever sought out or wanted her validation on, so who knows how that would go. It does fall into the observation some have made regarding women's lack of empathy for men who are their partners though.


----------



## samyeagar

Tiggy! said:


> What if she kept insisting that the fact you haven't done this sex act with s a reflection on your feelings and attraction for her (no matter how much you deny it), would that be reasonable?


If she refused to accept the explanations and kept insisting on additional explanations, or simply repeating the same ones over and over, then it would become unreasonable. It would take some time to get to that point. How long, I can't really say specifically, but after a while it would become unreasonable.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> If she refused to accept the explanations and kept insisting on additional explanations, or simply repeating the same ones over and over, then it would become unreasonable. It would take some time to get to that point. How long, I can't really say specifically, but after a while it would become unreasonable.


It's been my experience that the kind of men who obsess about this are NOT the kind of men to EVER let it go.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> It's been my experience that the kind of men who obsess about this are NOT the kind of men to EVER let it go.


It's not just men, and it's not just about sex related things. You would find them to be the same about about other things in their lives where they have essentially been told no, and they don't like it.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> It's not just men, and it's not just about sex related things. You would find them to be the same about about other things in their lives where they have essentially been told no, and they don't like it.


You make a very good point. And anyone who does that is unreasonable.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> You make a very good point. And anyone who does that is unreasonable.


The situation with my wife wasn't over with a two minute explanation with her going Oh, Ok, and done with it. Deeply emotional situations are rarely over with quickly. Things between us were fairly cool for a good few weeks with many conversations and clarifications. In the end, the only way forward was for her to believe me and give me the benefit of her doubt. That was the direction she chose, and it hasn't really been an issue since.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am wondering what you are basing this on? This is not my recollection of most of the thread.




Mostly on common sense. I also haven’t seen anyone post that they had a fulfilling sex life overall yet hold that one thing the wife didn’t do with them against them. Perhaps you can point me to a post that specifically says this?

Two things that make the whole premise highly unrealistic is these truisms:

1. A wife who is generally enthusiastic and eager to have sex with her husband is unlikely to hold back a sexual act without a good reason.

2. A husband who has a fulfilling sex life is not going to press for one sex act she isn’t doing with him and insist that she better does it if she did it with someone else otherwise the relationship is kaputt.

If you find a post to the contrary, please point me to it (not to a post that mis-represents someone else’s opinion on this).




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----------



## samyeagar

inmyprime said:


> Mostly on common sense. I also haven’t seen anyone post that they had a fulfilling sex life overall yet hold that one thing the wife didn’t do with them against them. Perhaps you can point me to a post that specifically says this?
> 
> Two things that make the whole premise highly unrealistic is these truisms:
> 
> 1. A wife who is generally enthusiastic and eager to have sex with her husband is unlikely to hold back a sexual act without a good reason.
> 
> 2. A husband who has a fulfilling sex life is not going to press for one sex act she isn’t doing with him and insist that she better does it if she did it with someone else otherwise the relationship is kaputt.
> 
> If you find a post to the contrary, please point me to it (not to a post that mis-represents someone else’s opinion on this).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most of the women in this thread have never experienced this. I suspect this is because the women in this thread are generally enthusiastic about sex, leading directly to points 1 and 2 above.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Most of the women in this thread have never experienced this. I suspect this is because the women in this thread are generally enthusiastic about sex, leading directly to points 1 and 2 above.


So what is going on is kind of the same as a lot of threads here. We have sexually unfulfilled men asking sexually fulfilled and enthusiastic women why women who are not like us would do something. And since it is all foreign to us, we don’t really understand the men’s question. We can’t answer for something hypothetical that doesn’t apply to us.

Is there some way to ask women on reddit or somewhere who actually has withheld stuff from husband that she did with Bob? That would be the only way those men might get some answers to these questions. I’m sure somewhere there is a real woman like the hypothetical scenario and maybe she could answer.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> So what is going on is kind of the same as a lot of threads here. We have sexually unfulfilled men asking sexually fulfilled and enthusiastic women why women who are not like us would do something. And since it is all foreign to us, we don’t really understand the men’s question. We can’t answer for something hypothetical that doesn’t apply to us.
> 
> Is there some way to ask women on reddit or somewhere who actually has withheld stuff from husband that she did with Bob? That would be the only way those men might get some answers to these questions. I’m sure somewhere there is a real woman like the hypothetical scenario and maybe she could answer.


There are certain things that can be discussed such as sex acts in general being a reasonable measure for how into their partner a person is. Effort as a gauge of how much a person sexually desires their partner.


----------



## 2ntnuf

happiness27 said:


> From my present viewpoint, spit and feces isn't on my top sex menu.  I admit, I'm a shower-before/shower-after kind of girl when it comes to sex (our water bill is kinda high  ) and I almost regret having too many science classes, *A&P* and biology. You can't unsee some things, right?
> 
> I seriously, seriously doubt that gay men miss a vajayjay.
> 
> But, please do go on about a muscly tight vajayjay and it's appeal...I am not even a little bi, so I really don't understand a guy's viewpoint on what make women such an attraction.


When I was just a little shaver, mum used to take me there on Saturday mornings and set me in the cart facing her. I can remember really liking to sit there and be pushed around. It was fun and I'd swing my legs. I can remember pointing at animal cracker boxes. I loved them. 

Oh, you didn't mean the A&P Supermarkets? :grin2:


----------



## 269370

Are the men in question asking women these things? It sounds more like they are venting & commiserate with other men.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> There are certain things that can be discussed such as sex acts in general being a reasonable measure for how into their partner a person is. Effort as a gauge of how much a person sexually desires their partner.


Yes true. But if you are going to ask the women at TAM, you’re going to mostly hear that we are mostly enthusiastic and love all kinds of sex. You’d have to get a woman who is admittedly not that enthusiastic about sex to answer about why she makes no effort (however that is defined). 

I honestly don’t know what the mindset is of a woman who is not that enthusiastic about sex. I would not assume there is anything wrong with her. I would assume she is baseline LD or has trauma in her past or that sex is unfulfilling to her or that she may have a hormonal issue. But this is a hypothetical woman, again.


----------



## 269370

samyeagar said:


> Most of the women in this thread have never experienced this. I suspect this is because the women in this thread are generally enthusiastic about sex, leading directly to points 1 and 2 above.



Could be. But it doesn’t explain why the men get called whiny and entitled. If there’s something one can’t relate to very well, you don’t immediately have to jump to conclusions.


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----------



## happiness27

inmyprime said:


> Could be. But it doesn’t explain why the men get called whiny and entitled. If there’s something one can’t relate to very well, you don’t immediately have to jump to conclusions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But has anyone answered the question: "What sex acts are you talking about being deprived of?" 

1.) BJ

2.) MFM

3.) FMF

4.) BDSM

5.) Sex in the shower

6.) Sex outdoors

7.) Gang Band/Orgy

8.) Skinny dipping

9.) Sex club attendance

10.) Private swingers party

11.) Sex with a paid sex worker

12.) Dressing up and behaving as a sex worker or escort

13.) Mile High Club

14.) Sex while parachuting

15.) Sex while driving

16.) Voyeurism 

17.) Bi-sexual activity

18.) Photographing/video of sex act together

Or...add the one you want. 

Here's an opportunity to say what you want your spouse to do that she has done for others but not for you. Be specific.


----------



## Faithful Wife

happiness27 said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be. But it doesn’t explain why the men get called whiny and entitled. If there’s something one can’t relate to very well, you don’t immediately have to jump to conclusions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> But has anyone answered the question: "What sex acts are you talking about being deprived of?"
> 
> 1.) BJ
> 
> 2.) MFM
> 
> 3.) FMF
> 
> 4.) BDSM
> 
> 5.) Sex in the shower
> 
> 6.) Sex outdoors
> 
> 7.) Gang Band/Orgy
> 
> 8.) Skinny dipping
> 
> 9.) Sex club attendance
> 
> 10.) Private swingers party
> 
> 11.) Sex with a paid sex worker
> 
> 12.) Dressing up and behaving as a sex worker or escort
> 
> 13.) Mile High Club
> 
> 14.) Sex while parachuting
> 
> 15.) Sex while driving
> 
> 16.) Voyeurism
> 
> 17.) Bi-sexual activity
> 
> 18.) Photographing/video of sex act together
> 
> Or...add the one you want.
> 
> Here's an opportunity to say what you want your spouse to do that she has done for others but not for you. Be specific.
Click to expand...

The problem is that no man here (on this thread) actually has this problem. It’s all hypothetical.


----------



## personofinterest

Faithful Wife said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be. But it doesn’t explain why the men get called whiny and entitled. If there’s something one can’t relate to very well, you don’t immediately have to jump to conclusions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> But has anyone answered the question: "What sex acts are you talking about being deprived of?"
> 
> 1.) BJ
> 
> 2.) MFM
> 
> 3.) FMF
> 
> 4.) BDSM
> 
> 5.) Sex in the shower
> 
> 6.) Sex outdoors
> 
> 7.) Gang Band/Orgy
> 
> 8.) Skinny dipping
> 
> 9.) Sex club attendance
> 
> 10.) Private swingers party
> 
> 11.) Sex with a paid sex worker
> 
> 12.) Dressing up and behaving as a sex worker or escort
> 
> 13.) Mile High Club
> 
> 14.) Sex while parachuting
> 
> 15.) Sex while driving
> 
> 16.) Voyeurism
> 
> 17.) Bi-sexual activity
> 
> 18.) Photographing/video of sex act together
> 
> Or...add the one you want.
> 
> Here's an opportunity to say what you want your spouse to do that she has done for others but not for you. Be specific.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is that no man here (on this thread) actually has this problem. It’s all hypothetical.
Click to expand...

 Exactly! It's all just imaginary angst basically aimed at making women feel bad I guess? I'm really not sure what the point is…


----------



## Holdingontoit

I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.

If your husband had always been frugal with you, refused to buy presents for your birthday or anniversary, and then you saw a picture of him and an old girlfriend and she had on huge diamond earrings, and you asked who she was, and he said "oh, that was my girlfriend right before you, and I bought those earrings for her to commemorate our 6 month dating anniversary", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never bought you presents, but he bought diamond earrings for his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without buying you presents to prove it?".

Or if your husband never takes time off work to go on vacation with you, always claiming to be too busy, and then you find pictures of him and some woman on the beach in bathing suits, and you ask when this was taken, and he says "that was the girl I dated right before you, and that was the month we spent on the beach in Hawaii when I worked for a company that gave us 5 weeks of vacation a year", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never took you on vacation for even a weekend, but he went away for a month his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without taking you on vacation to prove it?".

Isn't there anything that, if he denied it to you but gave it freely to previous girlfriends, would cause you to wonder how much he is really into you? If not, kudos to you for having such high self esteem.

But I do agree that the key ingredient is not being fully satisfied with what you are currently getting. Both of my examples start from a place of deprivation. if your partner is enthusiastically heaping love and affection on you, you don't get very jealous of what they did with others. If you aren't getting enough of what you want in some area, finding out that they gave generously in that way to someone else burns like acid.


----------



## Faithful Wife

personofinterest said:


> Exactly! It's all just imaginary angst basically aimed at making women feel bad I guess? I'm really not sure what the point is…


Even stranger, I think the angst is meant to make themselves feel bad.

Why would anyone deliberately imagine something that hasn’t happened to them, but that would feel really bad, and then focus on it and have angst about it? 

I actually have done that before, in times when I was feeling insecure or got something in my head. I focused on some tidbit that I construed into something (that wasn’t true) which then made me feel jealous. Thankfully I knew I was doing this to myself. I worked with the thoughts until they stopped. It took a long time because I was in a weird loop about the thoughts. When I was finally free of the thoughts I was like phew! Thank god that’s over. Nothing matching any of my jealous thoughts had ever occurred and none ever occurred after I finally got over it. It was truly all just something my mind latched onto, based on my own insecurities (that were irrational and not born from anything my partner at the time had ever said or done).


----------



## Tiggy!

Holdingontoit said:


> I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.
> 
> If your husband had always been frugal with you, refused to buy presents for your birthday or anniversary, and then you saw a picture of him and an old girlfriend and she had on huge diamond earrings, and you asked who she was, and he said "oh, that was my girlfriend right before you, and I bought those earrings for her to commemorate our 6 month dating anniversary", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never bought you presents, but he bought diamond earrings for his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without buying you presents to prove it?".
> 
> Or if your husband never takes time off work to go on vacation with you, always claiming to be too busy, and then you find pictures of him and some woman on the beach in bathing suits, and you ask when this was taken, and he says "that was the girl I dated right before you, and that was the month we spent on the beach in Hawaii when I worked for a company that gave us 5 weeks of vacation a year", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never took you on vacation for even a weekend, but he went away for a month his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without taking you on vacation to prove it?".
> 
> Isn't there anything that, if he denied it to you but gave it freely to previous girlfriends, would cause you to wonder how much he is really into you? If not, kudos to you for having such high self esteem.


If these things were important a man like that wouldn't be me my husband in the first place, what he did/didn't do with his previous GF wouldn't be the issue imo.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Holdingontoit said:


> I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.
> 
> If your husband had always been frugal with you, refused to buy presents for your birthday or anniversary, and then you saw a picture of him and an old girlfriend and she had on huge diamond earrings, and you asked who she was, and he said "oh, that was my girlfriend right before you, and I bought those earrings for her to commemorate our 6 month dating anniversary", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never bought you presents, but he bought diamond earrings for his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without buying you presents to prove it?".
> 
> Or if your husband never takes time off work to go on vacation with you, always claiming to be too busy, and then you find pictures of him and some woman on the beach in bathing suits, and you ask when this was taken, and he says "that was the girl I dated right before you, and that was the month we spent on the beach in Hawaii when I worked for a company that gave us 5 weeks of vacation a year", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never took you on vacation for even a weekend, but he went away for a month his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without taking you on vacation to prove it?".
> 
> Isn't there anything that, if he denied it to you but gave it freely to previous girlfriends, would cause you to wonder how much he is really into you? If not, kudos to you for having such high self esteem.


Ok if I was the hypothetical girl in your hypothetical scenario and my hypothetical husband responded in the weird way you have described, I would be hurt and pissed. Then I would be gone because the whole hypothetical scenario you described sucks.

But so far, no one has described any real situation like this. I know a bit about your situation. I think it is similar in ways, right? I also understand why and how you were so hurt, and that you are handling the best you can (though I have not read your update lately). Your story is tragic and very extreme. And I have always felt compassion for your situation.


----------



## personofinterest

Holdingontoit said:


> I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.
> 
> If your husband had always been frugal with you, refused to buy presents for your birthday or anniversary, and then you saw a picture of him and an old girlfriend and she had on huge diamond earrings, and you asked who she was, and he said "oh, that was my girlfriend right before you, and I bought those earrings for her to commemorate our 6 month dating anniversary", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never bought you presents, but he bought diamond earrings for his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without buying you presents to prove it?".
> 
> Or if your husband never takes time off work to go on vacation with you, always claiming to be too busy, and then you find pictures of him and some woman on the beach in bathing suits, and you ask when this was taken, and he says "that was the girl I dated right before you, and that was the month we spent on the beach in Hawaii when I worked for a company that gave us 5 weeks of vacation a year", maybe you might feel slighted? And if you complained that he never took you on vacation for even a weekend, but he went away for a month his previous girlfriend, would you take well if he said to "put on your big girl pants and stop having such a fragile female ego. Don't I show my love for you well enough without taking you on vacation to prove it?".
> 
> Isn't there anything that, if he denied it to you but gave it freely to previous girlfriends, would cause you to wonder how much he is really into you? If not, kudos to you for having such high self esteem.
> 
> But I do agree that the key ingredient is not being fully satisfied with what you are currently getting. Both of my examples start from a place of deprivation. if your partner is enthusiastically heaping love and affection on you, you don't get very jealous of what they did with others. If you aren't getting enough of what you want in some area, finding out that they gave generously in that way to someone else burns like acid.


 This has been discussed already on this thread. In fact, someone started a thread specifically with that topic. It died because every woman except one said they would not get all in a wide over it. And the 1 who said she would be hurt said she would choose to put it out of her mind instead of dwelling on it. So it flopped.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t understand her comment to you on this. So I’d say in this case, your wife was being a jerk to throw out “ego” in relation to this.


She backed off the comment and apologized after my analogy (see, sometimes analogies DO work).

I think can sometimes just be an easy "go to" for women when they don't understand men's feelings.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Except Buddy gave an example of his wife saying something about a fragile ego, and in the example he gave, it sounds like his wife was being a jerk.


OK, now I'm compelled to defend my wife and tell you what a wonderful person she is 

We've been very much in love for 30 years


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> Why do you label her questions as irrational?
> 
> I think it's very rational to wonder why you did something you didn't like with someone else but refuse to do this same thing with her.


Wait a minute....

Are you switching sides? :surprise:


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> In the end, the only way forward was for her to believe me and give me the benefit of her doubt.


Unfortunately, the benefit of the doubt is rarely given easily these days, to the detriment of us all.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> So what is going on is kind of the same as a lot of threads here. We have sexually unfulfilled men asking sexually fulfilled and enthusiastic women why women who are not like us would do something. And since it is all foreign to us, we don’t really understand the men’s question. We can’t answer for something hypothetical that doesn’t apply to us.
> 
> Is there some way to ask women on reddit or somewhere who actually has withheld stuff from husband that she did with Bob? That would be the only way those men might get some answers to these questions. I’m sure somewhere there is a real woman like the hypothetical scenario and maybe she could answer.


Well said!

This is turning into a lovefest of empathy and understanding.

One rarely sees such a thing on the internet.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Even stranger, I think the angst is meant to make themselves feel bad.
> 
> Why would anyone deliberately imagine something that hasn’t happened to them, but that would feel really bad, and then focus on it and have angst about it?


I don't feel the least bit bad and, thanks to this thread's re-birth, I've been thanking about this stuff for a couple of days now.

Nothing of the sort has ever happened ever happened to me. I go out of my way to avoid finding out things about my wife's past (she went through a promiscuous period) and. if anything of the sort came up, I know that my wife would never give me a flippant "I was a different person then" explanation.

I can imagine a situation,have a pretty good idea of how I would react, talk about it and not feel bad.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.


This has been tried before (many times).

I harbor the suspicion that, since they know they're being set up, they are not being entirely truthful (not purposely so).

Then again, women are weird, so who knows?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think many women (but surely not the remarkably evolved women here on TAM) would perhaps have more empathy if we switched gears to something other than sex.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been tried before (many times).
> 
> I harbor the suspicion that, since they know they're being set up, they are not being entirely truthful (not purposely so).
> 
> Then again, women are weird, so who knows?
Click to expand...

Buddy - Do you think we are not being truthful about our general feeling as women that we own our bodies and we owe no one anything?

See, there is a sentiment in “you did it for Bob but not me” that implies she owes her body to anyone, and for myself, even on behalf of a hypothetical woman, I’m going to bristle at any notion of a woman’s body not being entirely her own. It’s just a very unsavory notion to most women. Our distaste for that sentiment makes this topic really yucky to us.

This is what you are seeing. You and other men here clearly don’t realize that’s what we are reacting to.

That’s why there’s no comparing this to anything else. My body. Period. The end. This is how women must feel about their bodies. 

If there was a way of expressing what you want to say that could eliminate this sentiment from the topic, women would be able to hear the deeper point you are trying to make.

But no matter what argument is given, there is still some element of her body not being her own to do with as she pleases (or not do). We can’t get past that.

Every woman has experienced sexual pressure, attempts at coercion, including some of us who have experienced being guilted as a form of coercion. I’m not really saying this is all bad. It’s just that it is a slippery slope for all women. 

I’d like to understand your actual points with this topic, but some of them I really can’t. 

The one point I do understand is when a partner feels insecure, the other partner should soothe them (to the point that it is appropriate) and that we all experience jealous feelings from time to time and these feelings are real and should be handled with love and care.

But I personally would not receive any message from a partner that implied I owed them anything at all in relation with what I had done before with a good feeling behind it. I also would not soothe it. “Well you did it with him...why not me?” would be the wrong way to say it to me. I’d bail. 

On the other hand, if it is presented to me as a jealous or insecurity, I would be there to help soothe it out. “It makes me worry that you loved him more because you did it with him and not me” would elicit an empathetic response from me.


----------



## 269370

But the OP wasn’t hypothetical.

“My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.”

What’s (mostly) hypothetical is the rest of the discussion that followed.


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----------



## 269370

See it depends whether it’s a conscious (‘malicious’) intent or just the way life planned out. If you couldn’t do certain sex acts/buy certain sized earrings due to work situation or health situation, then it would be unreasonable to be pissed at husband/wife (though I have read threads like “due to my husbands health issues, we can’t travel anymore, I feel cheated” etc).
If it’s clear that the reason is because...”just don’t care” then it’s a different scenario. 
Intent matters.

But what also matters is how long you have been in relationship with someone; many are still in new relationships and the ones who have been in multiple relationships shops perhaps haven’t been long enough to let these types of insecurities take hold of them properly. Questions like: does he love me? Does he care about me? Does he desire me? Does he think my butt looks big in it? Etc are all normal questions to sometimes ask yourself. It’s weird to always assume, come rain or come shine, that no matter what, my husband/wife will always be a rock/love me/want to **** me/think I’m the most important person in their life.

Everyone has insecurities but everyone deals with insecurities differently, that’s where the main difference is.
But just because one type of insecurity doesn’t bother you at this time, doesn’t mean that someone else is childish for feeling them.
It comes back to an empathy issue; we can only empathise with something that is affecting us or affected us in the past. And we also have short memories: just because things are good right now, they can change very quickly like weather, and those changes can be triggered by something very small and insignificant at first. And the more stubborn type of person, who finds it hard to let things go, will be the one most affected by it.


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----------



## 269370

Tiggy! said:


> If these things were important a man like that wouldn't be me my husband in the first place, what he did/didn't do with his previous GF wouldn't be the issue imo.




Yes like I said above, looking at the past is pointless and a diversion to the main argument of why he ‘doesn’t give a crap’ at this point in time. However it is a further kick in the balls/ovaries if it becomes clear that with his previous gf, he was not actually an ******* at all but a very generous human being. That just makes the current situation slightly more hurtful overall.


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----------



## 269370

happiness27 said:


> But has anyone answered the question: "What sex acts are you talking about being deprived of?"
> 
> 1.) BJ
> 
> 2.) MFM
> 
> 3.) FMF
> 
> 4.) BDSM
> 
> 5.) Sex in the shower
> 
> 6.) Sex outdoors
> 
> 7.) Gang Band/Orgy
> 
> 8.) Skinny dipping
> 
> 9.) Sex club attendance
> 
> 10.) Private swingers party
> 
> 11.) Sex with a paid sex worker
> 
> 12.) Dressing up and behaving as a sex worker or escort
> 
> 13.) Mile High Club
> 
> 14.) Sex while parachuting
> 
> 15.) Sex while driving
> 
> 16.) Voyeurism
> 
> 17.) Bi-sexual activity
> 
> 18.) Photographing/video of sex act together
> 
> Or...add the one you want.
> 
> Here's an opportunity to say what you want your spouse to do that she has done for others but not for you. Be specific.




Thanks for the list. Dammit I’m now not sure we will be able to go through it all today. It’s already 10am and we are still at 1).
Plumber is coming in a minute so a decent chance for 2). before the cleaner comes.

You haven’t included water sports, letting the dog hump you and diaper sex (these ideas are from TAM; I was an innocent man when I joined the site I swear).


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----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> But the OP wasn’t hypothetical.
> 
> “My W actually withheld that she had done things ( I asked her prior to marriage and she lied to me) I have, since learning of this, gone from initially very disappointed in realizing I had married a party girl (knew she had some fun, but not that much fun), and now I am feeling like, I am married to her and love her and for my own ego to resolve these things, I want the same thing.
> If I had learned prior to marriage, I would have chosen this path then, but I thought I had married someone with similar background and moral structure, but again, I was deceived.”
> 
> What’s (mostly) hypothetical is the rest of the discussion that followed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see a few things here. The desire to have someone else resolve issues with one's ego on this level is not healthy for either. Each party to a partnership ultimately is responsible for their own self image. What that path looks like certainly includes support from ones partner. But the responsibility for ones ego is the individual's alone. I think this is one of the great fail of "old school" style relationship culture to endorse the notion of self esteem as dependent on others.

The second question of background and moral structure needs to be addressed between the two of them. Bear in mind, learning over time that ones thoughts, feelings and the like are not what you assumed is perfectly normal. People don'e come as tidy packages all formed on their wedding day. What about the background do they feel SHOULD be the same? What is the moral difference? That these activities are immoral? She may agree and thus does not want to do them anymore as she matures and grows. That not sharing these things from the past is immoral? She might not agree ... This is a real challenge in many marriages, to handle this with both honesty and compassion.

The one thing I DON'T see is simply performing these acts as solving much of anything in a healthy way.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I see a few things here. The desire to have someone else resolve issues with one's ego on this level is not healthy for either. Each party to a partnership ultimately is responsible for their own self image. What that path looks like certainly includes support from ones partner. But the responsibility for ones ego is the individual's alone. I think this is one of the great fail of "old school" style relationship culture to endorse the notion of self esteem as dependent on others.
> 
> 
> 
> The second question of background and moral structure needs to be addressed between the two of them. Bear in mind, learning over time that ones thoughts, feelings and the like are not what you assumed is perfectly normal. People don'e come as tidy packages all formed on their wedding day. What about the background do they feel SHOULD be the same? What is the moral difference? That these activities are immoral? She may agree and thus does not want to do them anymore as she matures and grows. That not sharing these things from the past is immoral? She might not agree ... This is a real challenge in many marriages, to handle this with both honesty and compassion.
> 
> 
> 
> The one thing I DON'T see is simply performing these acts as solving much of anything in a healthy way.




I think it’s just bad phrasing. You can frame essentially the same thing differently.


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----------



## CharlieParker

happiness27 said:


> 7.) Gang Band/Orgy
> 
> 15.) Sex while driving


7. Love the typo, I picture a bunch of people snapping their fingers while holding switch blades and clarinets.

15. Ha, you got me, that's one thing I know she's done with others that she won't do with me. I'd totally forgotten about the part that she did it with others. She said no, I dropped it. OK, I did tease her about it recently when the Japanese Breakfast song Road Head came out.


----------



## Holdingontoit

A mature man who enjoys being married to his current wife would recognize that the girl she was when she did those things probably wouldn't want to be married to him, and he probably wouldn't want to be married to the girl she was when she did those things. A mature man who enjoys being married to his current wife would be glad she is no longer the girl who did those things.

A man who is unhappy with his current wife would be glad to be married to the girl she was when she did those things, because at least he would be getting some hot sex in return for dealing with her crap. Of course, that girl would dump him in a hot minute, but if he is unhappy with his current wife and doesn't have the guts to leave then her leaving is probably the greatest gift she could give him.


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> Even stranger, I think the angst is meant to make themselves feel bad.
> 
> Why would anyone deliberately imagine something that hasn’t happened to them, but that would feel really bad, and then focus on it and have angst about it?
> 
> I actually have done that before, in times when I was feeling insecure or got something in my head. I focused on some tidbit that I construed into something (that wasn’t true) which then made me feel jealous. Thankfully I knew I was doing this to myself. I worked with the thoughts until they stopped. It took a long time because I was in a weird loop about the thoughts. When I was finally free of the thoughts I was like phew! Thank god that’s over. Nothing matching any of my jealous thoughts had ever occurred and none ever occurred after I finally got over it. It was truly all just something my mind latched onto, based on my own insecurities (that were irrational and not born from anything my partner at the time had ever said or done).


Ever have a dream that your SO cheated on you, and then you wake up and even though you immediately realize it was a dream you still want to smack them with a pillow?


----------



## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> Buddy - Do you think we are not being truthful about our general feeling as women that we own our bodies and we owe no one anything?
> 
> See, there is a sentiment in “you did it for Bob but not me” that implies she owes her body to anyone, and for myself, even on behalf of a hypothetical woman, I’m going to bristle at any notion of a woman’s body not being entirely her own. It’s just a very unsavory notion to most women. Our distaste for that sentiment makes this topic really yucky to us.
> 
> This is what you are seeing. You and other men here clearly don’t realize that’s what we are reacting to.
> 
> That’s why there’s no comparing this to anything else. My body. Period. The end. This is how women must feel about their bodies.
> 
> If there was a way of expressing what you want to say that could eliminate this sentiment from the topic, women would be able to hear the deeper point you are trying to make.
> 
> But no matter what argument is given, there is still some element of her body not being her own to do with as she pleases (or not do). We can’t get past that.
> 
> Every woman has experienced sexual pressure, attempts at coercion, including some of us who have experienced being guilted as a form of coercion. I’m not really saying this is all bad. It’s just that it is a slippery slope for all women.
> 
> I’d like to understand your actual points with this topic, but some of them I really can’t.
> 
> The one point I do understand is when a partner feels insecure, the other partner should soothe them (to the point that it is appropriate) and that we all experience jealous feelings from time to time and these feelings are real and should be handled with love and care.
> 
> But I personally would not receive any message from a partner that implied I owed them anything at all in relation with what I had done before with a good feeling behind it. I also would not soothe it. “Well you did it with him...why not me?” would be the wrong way to say it to me. I’d bail.
> 
> On the other hand, if it is presented to me as a jealous or insecurity, I would be there to help soothe it out. “It makes me worry that you loved him more because you did it with him and not me” would elicit an empathetic response from me.


Well said Faithful. 

Just a few discussion points.

While ultimately my body is mine, and my wife's is hers, I think there is some play there and I wouldnt feel threatened or pissed off if my wife said my penis etc was hers. In fact I would like a certain degree of possessiveness with that. "Give my me ****" or "that's my ****" would be fine with me. Her demanding I get a prince albert? Hell no. Obviously its my body there. :grin2: But I do get what you are saying here and just having fun nitpicking your words for discussion. :wink2:

The last part makes sense to me. The first part didnt piss me off though. The for him why not me thing almost reads in my head the same as "It makes we worry that you loved him...." Maybe thats a guy thing here? Maybe I just assume the second is being implied with the first because that is what I would feel? Dont know. Could be VERY helpful for some guys to read that and phrase it that way however if the difference is that important.


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I think it’s just bad phrasing. You can frame essentially the same thing differently.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not sure what that means. I think working with one's partner to express feelings and thoughts in understandable ways is very important.


----------



## 269370

Fozzy said:


> Ever have a dream that your SO cheated on you, and then you wake up and even though you immediately realize it was a dream you still want to smack them with a pillow?



My suspicion is that most marriages remain in that state of wanting to smack them with a pillow. The dream is over but the state remains!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

19). BJ in a ski lift

20). Sex on the beach and caves

Still stick out in my memory. 
Can’t really figure out how to **** when parachuting. Any tips? Is it one of those parachutes towed behind a boat where the instructor is behind you?


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## Faithful Wife

Middle of Everything said:


> Well said Faithful.
> 
> Just a few discussion points.
> 
> While ultimately my body is mine, and my wife's is hers, I think there is some play there and I wouldnt feel threatened or pissed off if my wife said my penis etc was hers. In fact I would like a certain degree of possessiveness with that. "Give my me ****" or "that's my ****" would be fine with me. Her demanding I get a prince albert? Hell no. Obviously its my body there. :grin2: But I do get what you are saying here and just having fun nitpicking your words for discussion. :wink2:
> 
> The last part makes sense to me. The first part didnt piss me off though. The for him why not me thing almost reads in my head the same as "It makes we worry that you loved him...." Maybe thats a guy thing here? Maybe I just assume the second is being implied with the first because that is what I would feel? Dont know. Could be VERY helpful for some guys to read that and phrase it that way however if the difference is that important.


As for “owning” each other.....yes, I get it. I’ve always felt “owned” by my lovers, in the sense that they had a pass to come after me for sex at any time, and that my body was completely in love with them and I was putty in their hands. Then there were sometimes some more “ownership” type things that were like role playing sexy times. 

But these are “games” and are not literal. And my partners have understood the difference between....

“Come give me what is mine” (role playing words which I loved hearing, in context, and is understood to be consensual due to lots of prior discussion and understanding)

and...

“You will give me what you gave him” (completely unacceptable and I would run far and fast)


One is a game, the other is an attempt at control or coercion or manipulation. If a man doesn’t understand the difference, he’s not going to be with me at all.


----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> 19). BJ in a ski lift
> 
> 20). Sex on the beach and caves
> 
> Still stick out in my memory.
> Can’t really figure out how to **** when parachuting. Any tips? Is it one of those parachutes towed behind a boat where the instructor is behind you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list


----------



## Middle of Everything

personofinterest said:


> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list


What about sex on a golf course green, snuck onto in the middle of the night? Just a hypothetical question here. :grin2:


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure what that means. I think working with one's partner to express feelings and thoughts in understandable ways is very important.



The partner should be able to know how to express feelings in understandable ways. They learn it before school.
You can either say: “I deserve better sex from you, ‘cos I’m worth it” (while shampooing your hair, like in the advert) or you can say “I really miss doing this or that with you, like we used to”. Or something similar.

Both expressions come from a place of dissatisfaction and one could say entitlement (though that’s a bit of a harsh word). But expressed differently. Is both a form of coercion? I’m a bit gob smacked to read that it might be but if it feels like it to the women, then the aversive reaction is understandable.
What most women have a problem with on this thread is mostly the form of expression I think.

Btw one shouldn’t forget that one of the most difficult thing for a guy to express is that he desires more sex. It’s biologically literally impossible. He will go through hoops and avoid the issue, resent and bottle up before he even hints that he might want more sex from his wife.



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----------



## Andy1001

personofinterest said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> 19). BJ in a ski lift
> 
> 20). Sex on the beach and caves
> 
> Still stick out in my memory.
> Can’t really figure out how to **** when parachuting. Any tips? Is it one of those parachutes towed behind a boat where the instructor is behind you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>
Click to expand...

My girlfriend knows that I have had a lot more partners than her but she has never asked for a figure. 
She did ask me once in the early days where was the weirdest place I had had sex and when I told her she just laughed and didn’t believe me. 
I wasn’t joking. 
The haunted mansion at Disney World in Orlando at three in the morning.


----------



## Andy1001

personofinterest said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> 19). BJ in a ski lift
> 
> 20). Sex on the beach and caves
> 
> Still stick out in my memory.
> Can’t really figure out how to **** when parachuting. Any tips? Is it one of those parachutes towed behind a boat where the instructor is behind you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list
Click to expand...

Double post


----------



## personofinterest

Andy1001 said:


> My girlfriend knows that I have had a lot more partners than her but she has never asked for a figure.
> She did ask me once in the early days where was the weirdest place I had had sex and when I told her she just laughed and didn’t believe me.
> I wasn’t joking.
> The haunted mansion at Disney World in Orlando at three in the morning.


New Goal: Have sex at Hogwarts at Universal Studios - preferably in the Gryffindor section


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list



Doggy style works ok without sand getting in. My wife would agree with you about sand though. It took a bit of effort to ‘coerce’ her into it 
She liked it in the end. Twice.


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----------



## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> As for “owning” each other.....yes, I get it. I’ve always felt “owned” by my lovers, in the sense that they had a pass to come after me for sex at any time, and that my body was completely in love with them and I was putty in their hands. Then there were sometimes some more “ownership” type things that were like role playing sexy times.
> 
> But these are “games” and are not literal. And my partners have understood the difference between....
> 
> “Come give me what is mine” (role playing words which I loved hearing, in context, and is understood to be consensual due to lots of prior discussion and understanding)
> 
> and...
> 
> “You will give me what you gave him” (completely unacceptable and I would run far and fast)
> 
> 
> One is a game, the other is an attempt at control or coercion or manipulation. If a man doesn’t understand the difference, he’s not going to be with me at all.


Agreed.

I guess I should have stressed the important part more of how I think you hit the nail on the head with the 
"You did it for him, why not me"
vs
"It makes me feel you loved him more than me"

I think MOST guys on TAM _feel_ and _think_the latter when they might just say the former to their wives/SO. Now are some guys just *******s and say AND think #1? Yeah. They just want a BJ or anal for example and dont truly care about their partner. But I guess Im giving most a benefit of the doubt here and think they feel #2.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Buddy - Do you think we are not being truthful about our general feeling as women that we own our bodies and we owe no one anything?


No. I was wondering if the answers to questions like "If a man bought his ex-wife a 100 carat diamond and bought you a Mickey Mouse ring" were entirely truthful, especially due to the fact that they know they're being set up.

I was, hopefully, being somewhat light-hearted (the women are weird comment)


----------



## Middle of Everything

personofinterest said:


> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list


Reminds me of a _somewhat_ :wink2: sexist remark my friends and I would use with each other when someone would get a little "whiny". "Get some sand in your vagina"?


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> The partner should be able to know how to express feelings in understandable ways. They learn it before school.


You think this? I don't. I think struggling to communicate what one means and getting caught up in blaming someone for "misunderstanding" is very, very common.

Learning to communicate is NOT something people learn well before school, during school or after school.


----------



## personofinterest

Buddy400 said:


> No. I was wondering if the answers to questions like "If a man bought his ex-wife a 100 carat diamond and bought you a Mickey Mouse ring" were entirely truthful, especially due to the fact that they know they're being set up.
> 
> I was, hopefully, being somewhat light-hearted (the women are weird comment)


If a man bought me a hundred carat diamond I'd be pissed, tell him to take it back, get me a 1/2 carat, and let's buy a nice house lol


----------



## personofinterest

> She liked it in the end.


Is it bad that I laughed out loud at this?


----------



## Middle of Everything

inmyprime said:


> Doggy style works ok without sand getting in. My wife would agree with you about sand though. It took a bit of effort to ‘coerce’ her into it
> *She liked it in the end. Twice.
> *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:surprise: On the beach so coconut oil for lube? I mean since she liked it IN THE END. :wink2:


----------



## Randy Lafever

All this was so much easier in the days when she was a virgin on your wedding night. This thread is really showing me why men in some parts of the world go to such lengths to ensure their bride is "unsoiled".


----------



## 269370

Middle of Everything said:


> What about sex on a golf course green, snuck onto in the middle of the night? Just a hypothetical question here. :grin2:



18 holes or 9? I’m a perfectionist and unless I fill every single hole I won’t be able to sleep tight.


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----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> See, there is a sentiment in “you did it for Bob but not me” that implies she owes her body to anyone, and for myself, even on behalf of a hypothetical woman, I’m going to bristle at any notion of a woman’s body not being entirely her own. It’s just a very unsavory notion to most women. Our distaste for that sentiment makes this topic really yucky to us.
> 
> This is what you are seeing. You and other men here clearly don’t realize that’s what we are reacting to.


We *knew* there was *something* going on that we were missing.

This is apparently it and it's very helpful.

And understandable.

I actually think we've achieved a breakthrough in communications between the sexes here.

You've been a big help in bridging the divide.

I think it usually comes down to "giving the benefit of the doubt" and trying to assume that the other party has good intentions and focusing on the good arguments instead of the bad ones.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Middle of Everything said:


> :surprise: On the beach so coconut oil for lube? I mean since she liked it IN THE END. :wink2:


Ew! The sand!


----------



## Middle of Everything

inmyprime said:


> 18 holes or 9? I’m a perfectionist and unless I fill every single hole I won’t be able to sleep tight.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We talking multiple trips to "play 18"

or 

Getting up with your "stiff shafted wood" out, walking to the next green, play a while longer, get up again...........?? Not sure I would like a 500+ yard par 5 with my pants down around my ankles.


----------



## 269370

Middle of Everything said:


> We talking multiple trips to "play 18"
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> 
> Getting up with your "stiff shafted wood" out, walking to the next green, play a while longer, get up again...........?? Not sure I would like a 500+ yard par 5 with my pants down around my ankles.




Next time you see a guy doing what looks like press ups on a golf course, you will know the back story to this.
If the wives were universally more enthusiastic, men would have much less hobbies  🏌*♂ ⛳  


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----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> We *knew* there was *something* going on that we were missing.
> 
> This is apparently it and it's very helpful.
> 
> And understandable.
> 
> I actually think we've achieved a breakthrough in communications between the sexes here.
> 
> You've been a big help in bridging the divide.
> 
> I think it usually comes down to "giving the benefit of the doubt" and trying to assume that the other party has good intentions and focusing on the good arguments instead of the bad ones.


Any sentiment that sounds like “you owe me your body/sex” is such a trigger to most women, that we really aren’t going to give the benefit of the doubt in that moment. Maybe after more explanation, but initially this sentiment will always trigger a woman and she will immediately be defensive toward the speaker.

I’m sorry, but this is just something men should know and learn if they don’t know. I guess just imagine having a daughter and how you would feel if you heard a man say to her “you owe me sex as good or better than you gave Bob”. Wouldn’t you just immediately feel like defending her?

So there are many posts on this thread by men that are ultra triggering. And in this environment with several men saying triggery things, women are not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

But again - with enough conversation there can be understanding. 

Sorry, it’s just one topic/sentiment that women will not budge on. Men need to learn how to respect this in women, they need to understand why it is a trigger. Maybe they will never fully understand, but can learn how to word things more precisely and avoid this dilemma. 

This is why women have rejected the sentiments behind this thread for 5 years now. It is not because we lack empathy for men. It is because the posts here have so triggered them that they can’t even hear the point the men want to make.


----------



## chillymorn69

Can’t understand normal thinking. 

Thats all I got to say!


----------



## NobodySpecial

chillymorn69 said:


> Can’t understand normal thinking.
> 
> Thats all I got to say!


There is no such thing as "normal" thinking. There is only the struggle to fit ones own or someone else' vision of "normal".


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn69 said:


> Can’t understand normal thinking.
> 
> Thats all I got to say!


 @Buddy400 

See this is the type of thing that makes us not able to give men the benefit of the doubt on this topic. When we express what kind of language is offensive to us for valid reasons as women, there is no attempt to give us the benefit of the doubt. No empathy. Just “men are right, women can’t understand it because what men think is normal and what women think is irrelevant”.


----------



## chillymorn69

NobodySpecial said:


> There is no such thing as "normal" thinking. There is only the struggle to fit ones own or someone else' vision of "normal".


True.

I think normal should be banished as a word!


----------



## NobodySpecial

chillymorn69 said:


> True.
> 
> I think normal should be banished as a word!


There should be something more enthusiastic than Like.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Randy Lafever said:


> All this was so much easier in the days when she was a virgin on your wedding night. This thread is really showing me why men in some parts of the world go to such lengths to ensure their bride is "unsoiled".


 @Buddy400

Then there are the posts like this one. Men feel entitled to all the variety they want, whether real or via porn. But they don’t want the one they marry to be “spoiled” by having shared pleasure with a man other than themselves.

I know, I know, “most” men don’t actually feel this way (anymore). Yet most men used to feel that way (including the double standard for themselves) and many men still do feel this way.

So even if one particular man doesn’t feel this way, as soon as the sentiment “you did it for him...” is hanging in the air, women know you are trying to **** shame them into doing something you already said no to.

Again - this is completely non empathetic toward women and there’s no benefit of the doubt for us. It’s all about “me man, me entitled, or better yet she woman has never had another man so that I can make sure I’m the best, all about me me me, none about her her her, she deserves nothing of her own, only me me me).


----------



## 269370

Is it possible women trigger too quickly lately?
I sometimes tell my wife ‘you owe me one’ after she stops squirming with the cheek firmly in my tongue; if I posted it on TAM I would probably get banned 🏌*♂


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----------



## Randy Lafever

Faithful Wife said:


> @Buddy400
> 
> Then there are the posts like this one. Men feel entitled to all the variety they want, whether real or via porn. But they don’t want the one they marry to be “spoiled” by having shared pleasure with a man other than themselves.
> 
> I know, I know, “most” men don’t actually feel this way (anymore). Yet most men used to feel that way (including the double standard for themselves) and many men still do feel this way.
> 
> So even if one particular man doesn’t feel this way, as soon as the sentiment “you did it for him...” is hanging in the air, women know you are trying to **** shame them into doing something you already said no to.
> 
> Again - this is completely non empathetic toward women and there’s no benefit of the doubt for us. It’s all about “me man, me entitled, or better yet she woman has never had another man so that I can make sure I’m the best, all about me me me, none about her her her, she deserves nothing of her own, only me me me).


True enough. Do you think, as it is so prevalent, that it might be "baked-in", and not really alterable?

Either way, once the sex robots are cheap and widespread we won't need to worry about two-person sex anymore.


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Is it possible women trigger too quickly lately?
> I sometimes tell my wife ‘you owe me one’ after she stops squirming with the cheek firmly in my tongue; if I posted it on TAM I would probably get banned 🏌*♂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What does "lately" look like to you? I won't use the word "trigger" the way FW does since none of this "triggers" me. But the way female sexuality has been viewed, talked about and acted on in western culture for 100s of years just barely started recognizing women's own agency there. There is a LOT of language that has been used to separate women from their personal agency, sexual and otherwise, including things like lighten up and stop taking everything so seriously... which is tantamount to your opinions/ feelings/ thoughts on this subject are not valid. Trust Me. I, personally, do not choose to engage people like this. But many, many people, not being female themselves, don't recognize the way it attempts to remove agency from someone. Well intention-ed... but there. One can rail about it, or one can learn from it.

I JOKE (and I do mean JOKE) with my HUSBAND about this stuff all the time because I trust him. Some other woman live in relationships where these outright or passive thoughts are actually still prevalent.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Randy Lafever said:


> True enough. Do you think, as it is so prevalent, that it might be "baked-in", and not really alterable?
> 
> Either way, once the sex robots are cheap and widespread we won't need to worry about two-person sex anymore.


There are very few people who would prefer sexbots to real life. The "worry" that many married people have is that they are not having sex WITH THEIR SPOUSE. I am not sure how a bot would fix that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Randy Lafever said:


> True enough. Do you think, as it is so prevalent, that it might be "baked-in", and not really alterable?
> 
> Either way, once the sex robots are cheap and widespread we won't need to worry about two-person sex anymore.


To your question, since plenty of men (some on this thread and millions in the population) are able to understand that they do not own a woman’s body and further, are happy that their wives have had sexual experiences with men other than themselves, it seems self evident that men are not all in the “you gave it to Bob, you must give it to me” camp.

To your sex bot point, sure, all men are entitled to all the sex bots they can afford. And all women are entitled to avoid partnerships with men who really just want an inanimate object to own rather than understand and communicate with an actual woman. I’m all for sex bots. They will weed out the herd.


----------



## CharlieParker

Faithful Wife said:


> To your question, since plenty of men (some on this thread and millions in the population) are able to understand that they do not own a woman’s body and further,* are happy that their wives have had sexual experiences with men other than themselves*, it seems self evident that men are not all in the “you gave it to Bob, you must give it to me” camp.


Agree. On the bolded, my wife was quite "experienced" and I found that to be a positive. She liked sex a lot and was good at it.


----------



## Andy1001

Randy Lafever said:


> All this was so much easier in the days when she was a virgin on your wedding night. This thread is really showing me why men in some parts of the world go to such lengths to ensure their bride is "unsoiled".


Yeah.And then you find out she doesn’t like or want sex but it’s a little late at that stage.
It’s not complicated guys,if you want a good and regular sex life then marry a woman who enjoys sex and is capable of being faithful.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Andy1001 said:


> It’s not complicated guys,if you want a good and regular sex life then marry a woman who enjoys sex and is capable of being faithful.


Yeah, that's not complicated at all. Neither is being an NFL quarterback. Just throw the ball to somebody in the same colored jersey before some physical freak of nature in a different color jersey pile drives you into the turf. 

Simple. Especially because whether or not someone truly enjoys sex (bait and switch never really happens) and is capable of being faithful (nobody is actually capable of hiding red flags until it's too late) is just as easy as reading defensive coverages and sidestepping defensive linemen hellbent on sending you to the hospital.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, that's not complicated at all. Neither is being an NFL quarterback. Just throw the ball to somebody in the same colored jersey before some physical freak of nature in a different color jersey pile drives you into the turf.
> 
> Simple. Especially because whether or not someone truly enjoys sex (bait and switch never really happens) and is capable of being faithful (nobody is actually capable of hiding red flags until it's too late) is just as easy as reading defensive coverages and sidestepping defensive linemen hellbent on sending you to the hospital.


Hey I kick ass and always have a great QB rating on Madden. :grin2:


----------



## Andy1001

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, that's not complicated at all. Neither is being an NFL quarterback. Just throw the ball to somebody in the same colored jersey before some physical freak of nature in a different color jersey pile drives you into the turf.
> 
> Simple. Especially because whether or not someone truly enjoys sex (bait and switch never really happens) and is capable of being faithful (nobody is actually capable of hiding red flags until it's too late) is just as easy as reading defensive coverages and sidestepping defensive linemen hellbent on sending you to the hospital.


Buddy come down off the cross,martyrdom is not a spectator sport.


----------



## Holdingontoit

If you are a guy, don't get married if you have trouble picking up women and you finally found a decent looking woman who will have sex with you. Odds that she is playing you are high. Wait until you have figured out how to get women to find you attractive. Then, instead of marrying out of desperation that you finally found a woman willing to have sex with you, you will get married because you finally found a woman willing to have sex with you who you wanted to see again after the sex was over.

If you have no doubt of your ability to find someone else just as good a match for you, then you won't stay with someone who pulls a bait and switch. If you know in your heart that you would stay with someone who pulled a bait and switch, then you aren't yet ready to get married.

Somehow, in my late 50s and married over 25 years, I am still not ready to be married. Therein lies the tale.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> What does "lately" look like to you? I won't use the word "trigger" the way FW does since none of this "triggers" me. But the way female sexuality has been viewed, talked about and acted on in western culture for 100s of years just barely started recognizing women's own agency there.



I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of (wo)man kind where that agency has been recognised and celebrated more than ‘lately’, as in, now.
Yet there also hasn’t been a time where women were more triggered by things at the same time. This correlation is strange. It’s understandable given the history but not so understandable given the current state of society.
It doesn’t mean that there aren’t still things that could still be improved upon. But then there is a lot of unfairness in the world in general, regardless of gender.



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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> There are very few people who would prefer sexbots to real life. The "worry" that many married people have is that they are not having sex WITH THEIR SPOUSE. I am not sure how a bot would fix that.




The sex bots will probably fix things the same way porn has ‘fixed’ things. Many couples will still be miserable.


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## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> Yeah.And then you find out she doesn’t like or want sex but it’s a little late at that stage.
> 
> It’s not complicated guys,if you want a good and regular sex life then marry a woman who enjoys sex and is capable of being faithful.




Exactly. And if you want to win the lottery just pick the correct numbers! 

I don’t mean to sound downbeat. But things may seem amazing at the beginning or for the first 5 years or so but eventually stuff accumulates and there will be periods where you get on each other’s nerves. It’s probably also normal. Developing good habits in how to deal with these tense situations is the actual key to how to improve your odds; not by trying to pick the ‘winner’. The winners often change to losers; you have no way of predicting how this turns out.


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----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> @Buddy400
> 
> Then there are the posts like this one. Men feel entitled to all the variety they want, whether real or via porn. But they don’t want the one they marry to be “spoiled” by having shared pleasure with a man other than themselves.
> 
> I know, I know, “most” men don’t actually feel this way (anymore). Yet most men used to feel that way (including the double standard for themselves) and many men still do feel this way.
> 
> So even if one particular man doesn’t feel this way, as soon as the sentiment “you did it for him...” is hanging in the air, women know you are trying to **** shame them into doing something you already said no to.
> 
> Again - this is completely non empathetic toward women and there’s no benefit of the doubt for us. It’s all about “me man, me entitled, or better yet she woman has never had another man so that I can make sure I’m the best, all about me me me, none about her her her, she deserves nothing of her own, only me me me).


I automatically gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he just meant that it was *easier*, not better.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Andy1001 said:


> Buddy come down off the cross,martyrdom is not a spectator sport.


What martyrdom? 

None of what I said is personal or about me in any way. 

And it's only martyrdom if one chooses to stay in the negative situation for the pity kibbles that people may give. But one can also choose to leave. That doesn't mean that one may have ended up in a situation they couldn't have predicted. How many bait and switch threads have you seen? 

One can acknowledge that there's some difficulty in accomplishing what others may claim as "simple" without being a martyr. It's just a factual acknowledgement of what is the truth for a good number of people. 

Come down off your knee-jerk judgment cross.


----------



## personofinterest

I wonder if you have a history of giving women upset about porn the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> Is it possible women trigger too quickly lately?


I think that might be the case, but then I'm not a woman.

I can see where women are coming from but I think this also leads to ideas like "I should only have sex with my husband when I spontaneously want to", which is a problem for a woman with responsive desire.


----------



## Cletus

Randy Lafever said:


> All this was so much easier in the days when she was a virgin on your wedding night. This thread is really showing me why men in some parts of the world go to such lengths to ensure their bride is "unsoiled".


That situation often comes with a whole host of different problems.

"What do you mean you wouldn't do that for ANY man?"


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> There is a LOT of language that has been used to separate women from their personal agency, sexual and otherwise, including things like lighten up and stop taking everything so seriously... which is tantamount to your opinions/ feelings/ thoughts on this subject are not valid.


I use this language all the time, albeit not normally in a sexual context.

Because I firmly believe that it is in everyone's best interests to not be so fragile nor easily offended. Even as a progressive, it is my biggest kvetch with the left these days - having to police every word that comes out of my mouth because I might trigger someone's sensibilities, use the wrong pronoun, or otherwise invade their safe speech space.

If I am not intentionally trying to be offensive or to remove your personal agency, then please, lighten up!


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I think that might be the case, but then I'm not a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see where women are coming from but I think this also leads to ideas like "I should only have sex with my husband when I spontaneously want to", which is a problem for a woman with responsive desire.




What’s interesting is that at the same time, the majority of women find nothing more sexy than ‘relinquishing control’ of their bodies and submitting themselves fully to the man, for his own (sometimes deliberately selfish) gratification (not all women, but at least that has been my experience and bears out from what I read here). 



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## personofinterest

Relinquishing control is a choice. Totally different from "you owe me" said in seriousness.


----------



## Randy Lafever

Faithful Wife said:


> To your sex bot point, sure, all men are entitled to all the sex bots they can afford. And all women are entitled to avoid partnerships with men who really just want an inanimate object to own rather than understand and communicate with an actual woman. I’m all for sex bots. They will weed out the herd.


Women will partake of the sex bot revolution just as enthusiastically. I mean, let's face it, they kind of already do, right?

Will it be the end of relationships, period?


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Relinquishing control is a choice. Totally different from "you owe me" said in seriousness.




That’s not what I’m comparing; I’m comparing the strive for ‘independent agency’ (which I did not imagine would be otherwise; I grew up in a different generation/environment where every person is respected regardless of gender. Actually we were taught to show more respect towards women and the elderly which I now think is not what equality is supposed to be about) versus the lack of it also being a kind of a common kink.
I understand very well that giving up a choice is also a choice.

But aside from that: I don’t see how expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life in any way takes away their choice. If anything, it’s voicing frustration over the dissatisfied party not having any choice of their own.



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## Faithful Wife

Randy Lafever said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> To your sex bot point, sure, all men are entitled to all the sex bots they can afford. And all women are entitled to avoid partnerships with men who really just want an inanimate object to own rather than understand and communicate with an actual woman. I’m all for sex bots. They will weed out the herd.
> 
> 
> 
> Women will partake of the sex bot revolution just as enthusiastically. I mean, let's face it, they kind of already do, right?
> 
> Will it be the end of relationships, period?
Click to expand...

Agree that women will have their sex bots too. Not sure what you mean by they already do. 

End of relationships? No, except for the men who can’t catch up to current women’s needs and desires. And for people who just choose not to enter relationships, which there are many of those already.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> What’s interesting is that at the same time, the majority of women find nothing more sexy than ‘relinquishing control’ of their bodies and submitting themselves fully to the man, for his own (sometimes deliberately selfish) gratification (not all women, but at least that has been my experience and bears out from what I read here).


And women wonder why we can't figure out the rules


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> And women wonder why we can't figure out the rules




Probably because they haven’t exactly figured out what those are for all situations. Though it’s very clear when we break them! 


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## 269370

Sex robots  for women have been around for a while: 

https://youtu.be/ZrzEDyS9Ddw




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## Randy Lafever

Faithful Wife said:


> End of relationships? No, except for the men who can’t catch up to current women’s needs and desires.


Imagine if you had to solve a riddle or a puzzle to use the bathroom. Then somebody invented a toilet that you could just use... whenever.

How popular do you think that new toilet would be? And not just for "(stupid) people who can't figure out riddles and puzzles".


----------



## happiness27

inmyprime said:


> 19). BJ in a ski lift
> 
> 20). Sex on the beach and caves
> 
> Still stick out in my memory.
> Can’t really figure out how to **** when parachuting. Any tips? Is it one of those parachutes towed behind a boat where the instructor is behind you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Airplane


----------



## happiness27

personofinterest said:


> Sex on the beach is overrated. There are some places sand should not be. I am not a fan of caves, so that one is probably not happening ever. But sex on a boat is marked off the bucket list


Yes, I would agree on the beach thing. Even if you just go to the beach to swim, there's a lot of clean up.

That would be cool on a boat as long as it was a big safe one. Canoe for the athletic types...

I forgot to mention that cars have a LOT of fun spaces besides straddling the driver - some of us still remember the good ol' Drive In days, which was pretty much the only really solid alone time you could get. Ahhhh, hot summer nights and a cooler full of ice cubes...

BJ on a ski lift...hmmmm...better be a zero to 6 in less than 15 seconds...datshtscold up there.


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## Vinnydee

Keep in mind that women tend to do more when seeking a mate than after they find that mate. Lots of girls perform oral and make it seem like it is great. However as they get older and no longer are trying to get a mate, they stop doing those things that they used to do. There are things I liked before I got married that I do not like now. We change as we get older and the type of sex we have with new partners is much different than the sex with have with the same partner. That is one of the reasons for swinging and cheating. 

I am lucky in that my wife never had sex before she met me so she loved everything for the first 10 years and then the oral sex slowed down as did a few other things. In my case my wife called in her best friend to provide me what she was not willing to provide so life went. I do not see this as a problem. Sexual tastes change and a lot of women feel pressured to do things before marriage that they really do not want to do. In my book, if my wife does not want it, I do not do it and take no offense. I have not had intercourse in 20 years for various reasons and it does not bother me a bit. There is more than one way to skin a cat and if you are thinking about doing what other guys did, that is not love. That is wanting to get even or something else I cannot describe. Not love.


----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Relinquishing control is a choice. Totally different from "you owe me" said in seriousness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s not what I’m comparing; I’m comparing the strive for ‘independent agency’ (which I did not imagine would be otherwise; I grew up in a different generation/environment where every person is respected regardless of gender. Actually we were taught to show more respect towards women and the elderly which I now think is not what equality is supposed to be about) versus the lack of it also being a kind of a common kink.
> I understand very well that giving up a choice is also a choice.
> 
> But aside from that: I don’t see how expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life in any way takes away their choice. If anything, it’s voicing frustration over the dissatisfied party not having any choice of their own.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life framed in the "you did it for other men and therefore I'm unhappy unless you do it for me now" way does take away choice. If she wants the current partner to not be unhappy/stop scorekeeping/stop perseverating on what she did in the past she's going to have to engage in the same sex act she did in the past whether she wants to or not.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Livvie said:


> Expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life framed in the "you did it for other men and therefore I'm unhappy unless you do it for me now" way does take away choice. If she wants the current partner to not be unhappy/stop scorekeeping/stop perseverating on what she did in the past she's going to have to engage in the same sex act she did in the past whether she wants to or not.


But that in no way takes away choice. It only let's hear know the result of her choice. She is still perfectly free to do as she chooses; better that she knows the outcome... and what kind of man she's with.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Randy Lafever said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> End of relationships? No, except for the men who can’t catch up to current women’s needs and desires.
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine if you had to solve a riddle or a puzzle to use the bathroom. Then somebody invented a toilet that you could just use... whenever.
> 
> How popular do you think that new toilet would be? And not just for "(stupid) people who can't figure out riddles and puzzles".
Click to expand...

I don’t know how to answer this. It doesn’t seem to apply to me. I’m a riddle that’s for sure, and every man I’ve been with for any length of time has eagerly figured me out and ravaged me awesomely.

At the same time, each of those men was a delicious mysterious puzzle for me to figure out and I loved every moment of it.

There will always be relationships, but more specifically, there are far more great relationships than what one would surmise by reading at TAM. 

Those who can’t keep up or figure it out? I guess they will either have to adapt or be alone. Or like I said, maybe they wanted to be alone/not in a relationship. It isn’t the same goal for everyone.

I know what my goal is and it is easily achieved.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Randy Lafever said:


> Imagine if you had to solve a riddle or a puzzle to use the bathroom. Then somebody invented a toilet that you could just use... whenever.
> 
> How popular do you think that new toilet would be? And not just for "(stupid) people who can't figure out riddles and puzzles".


Easily one of the worst false analogies I've seen on TAM.


----------



## ConanHub

Randy Lafever said:


> Women will partake of the sex bot revolution just as enthusiastically. I mean, let's face it, they kind of already do, right?
> 
> Will it be the end of relationships, period?


Sexbots will do as FW has described and cull the herd, so to speak.

If you mean that women have more toys today, you are correct. There are damn few women that wouldn't trade their toys in a hot second for a considerate lover.

I'm male but part of the human race and I cannot envision most humans being satisfied with a bot. I would not touch one myself. It would probably make me vomit. I couldn't see using a sexbot unless it was with a female partner as an extravagant toy.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree that women will have their sex bots too. Not sure what you mean by they already do.
> 
> End of relationships? No, except for the men who can’t catch up to current women’s needs and desires. And for people who just choose not to enter relationships, which there are many of those already.


I can't speak for the female perspective but you do not seem to have difficulty finding mates and I know that I will never lack if Mrs. Conan passed away.

I have actually had women that wouldn't mind sharing as a second to my wife. Not my speed but an indicator that there are many women who are hungry for a mate. I would speculate that many men are very desperate for a solid female as well.

I don't believe solid men or women will ever be without a good selection of mates.


----------



## ConanHub

Fozzy said:


> Ever have a dream that your SO cheated on you, and then you wake up and even though you immediately realize it was a dream you still want to smack them with a pillow?


I wonder how common this is!:grin2:

I had a dream that Mrs. Conan cheated on me with a dark skinned fellow that was shorter than me, in much worse shape and far less endowed than I.

I was irrationally upset when I woke up, enough so that I talked with her about it, just to sort my illogical emotions, not to confront her about my subconscious anxiety.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if you have a history of giving women upset about porn the benefit of the doubt.



You have posted this in some form repeatedly in this thread. It appears to be your favorite Orange to compare to the OP's Apple.

If the porn resulted in the husband DENYING sexual favors to the wife, which is what the OP's thread is about, then I'd wager that EVERY poster here would say the woman is right to be upset. In fact, they're probably have a few choice invectives to throw at the man.

The OP's thread is about willfully DENYING sexual favors in a specific context, not about just being upset.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> Again, that is not the actual topic of this thread. The actual topic of the thread is that if wife does not do X sex act for husband wife must not be attracted to husband. If wife did X ever in her life and didnt need therapy, wife better do it for hubby. *Isn't this just a variation on the back seat of the car, "if you love me you will," thing BOYS did in high school[*/QUOTE]
> 
> No it's not.
> 
> Because the high school boy example generally is about asking a girlfriend to do something for the first time, which she has never done before. Thant's a COMPLETELY different situation than the OP, in which his wife, who is supposed to desire him and lust for him over all other men, can't bring herself to do things with her husband which she eagerly and enthusiastically did with other guys.
> 
> That reluctance sends a message. The OP's wife has to take responsibility for that message, and realize she is sending a message through her actions/non-actions.
> 
> If the OP's wife would send OTHER messages through DEMONSTRATION of enthusiastic engagement in all other aspects of their sexual intimacy, then that context changes the message from one of "I don't desire you as much" to "I desire you greatly, I just don't like this one act anymore". Then it becomes a non-issue, as shown in #samyeagar 's posts in this thread.
> 
> I believe that invariably, the guys who have an issue with the WILLFUL refusal of one sexual action are those in which their partners do NOT demonstrate enthusiastic desire for them in all other aspects. A woman who doesn't care enough about her partner to make the effort to provide the right context is, in my opinion, selfish and uncaring and lacks empathy.
> 
> Yes, of course a person has the "right to say no" and not do things with which they are not comfortable. But you can be totally within your rights and still be a self-absorbed, uncaring human being.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> I haven’t had anything like “but why won’t you do that act with me since you’ve done it with someone else?” but if I did, I would listen and get to a resolution with him. Because in a real scenario with a real partner, I would know for sure that nothing I did with anyone else would mean anything about my love or desire for my current man. So I would authentically express this and he would know I was telling the truth. And I would understand that he is upset about something in his mind, not something in my mind or my heart. I would explain and smooth and love him. This is assuming we are talking about any of my actual partners, not a hypothetical man. My actual partners were loving and kind and if they were saying this to me they would express it in a way that was vulnerable and authentic.


This is a very empathic and appropriate response, and quite refreshing from the hateful, absolutist posts others, such as #personofinterest have posted in this thread. 

Instead of merely dismissing your partner as "petty" or "whiny", your partner becomes a real person whom you care about, and whom you love enough to seek a resolution and to reassure. In fact, I would speculate that with an attitude like this, your engagement and enthusiasm in all other aspects would provide the right context so that the refusal of any sexual activity becomes only a refusal of that activity, not a refusal of your partner or a reflection of his sexual appeal to you.

Perhaps that is why you haven't experienced any "why won't you do that sex act with me when you have done it with others".


----------



## 269370

happiness27 said:


> Yes, I would agree on the beach thing. Even if you just go to the beach to swim, there's a lot of clean up.


If you swim in the sea rather than the beach, the clean up is manageable. 





happiness27 said:


> That would be cool on a boat as long as it was a big safe one. Canoe for the athletic types...
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention that cars have a LOT of fun spaces besides straddling the driver - some of us still remember the good ol' Drive In days, which was pretty much the only really solid alone time you could get. Ahhhh, hot summer nights and a cooler full of ice cubes...
> 
> 
> 
> BJ on a ski lift...hmmmm...better be a zero to 6 in less than 15 seconds...datshtscold up there.



We got stuck in the lift. What else are you supposed to do to keep warm & alive?




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----------



## 269370

Vinnydee said:


> I am lucky in that my wife never had sex before she met me so she loved everything for the first 10 years and then the oral sex slowed down as did a few other things. In my case my wife called in her best friend to provide me what she was not willing to provide so life went.



Your wife is very considerate; and a real problem solver. Like! 



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----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> Because being triggered by an act over a very bad relationship is EXACTLY like "gimme what he got". Yeah.....
> 
> I think this thread is so long because it would pain posters to admit that at its core, insisting on getting everything off a woman's past checklist or assuming she's selfish/not into you is unhealthy.


No, I disagree. 

I think one of the main the reasons this thread is so long because it would pain certain posters to accept that refusing to do something sexually which was WILLINGLY done in the past *potentially* sends a message about the level of desire they have for their partner. 

Unfortunately, that message is there. In fact, we have seen it by some of the very women who post negatively about men in this thread. Because when they post about how they think the men in this thread are petty, but brag "thank God I have a wonderful, sexy, understanding husband with whom I feel safe and respected enough to push the limits sexually", they have just PROVEN that THE WILLINGNESS TO EXPLORE/PUSH THE ENVELOPE SEXUALLY IS A MANIFESTATION OF THEIR FEELINGS TOWARD THEIR PARTNER. 

Hell, why do cheaters do wild things with their affair partners that they refused to do with their spouses? Because the affair is purely sexual. So that's the level of their sexual engagement, which is invariably much higher than with the spouses. How many times do the cheaters say "It was just sex"? All the time! That's a message, right there.



personofinterest said:


> What if you were mugged and beaten at Coney Island, and as a result you can't go to Coney Island without remembering and being upset. I wouldn't expect you to go there because I'm not selfish.


Again, this thread is about situations where the sexual activities were done WILLINGLY, ENTHUSIASTICALLY, NON-COERCIVELY, etc. It is NOT about abusive situations, and I defy you to show me one poster in this thread who posts anything about being obligated to perform sexual activities which were forced, etc. 

These false straw-man comparisons to abusive situations keep coming up. Really, I hope you realize that it doesn't reinforce your arguments if you have to resort to these bogus comparisons. 




personofinterest said:


> In my first almost sexless marriage, after the first couple of years, if we DID have PIV, I had to be on top because that way he wouldn't really have to do anything. Seriously, he said that. Also, he didn;t want to be attentive or actually work at the relationship, so he'd try to make up for it by getting really good Christmas gifts, etc.
> 
> So, with new hubby, we talked about things, and I told him that I was a bit sensitive about "cowgirl" as a mainstay. Also, when he asked what I wanted for my birthday, I told him I'd rather just spend good time with him than have a gift because - weird or not - big gifts were kind of a trigger.
> 
> He could have called me whiny. He didn't. Of course, now cowgirl is not off the menu because time helped that. But those couple of things I alluded to earlier will ALWAYS be off the menu. They happened during a very bad time, and one of them in particular scared me.


So, cowgirl is now back "not off the menu" because of the great relationship you have with your hubby. Again, the relationship affects the willingness to do things.
And "scary" acts? As posted about, coercive, abusive situations were ALWAYS exclusions in the thread. So they wouldn't be part of the OP's topic anyway. This thread is about *enthusiastic*, willing past actions, not coercion.



personofinterest said:


> Just be willing to admit that thinking you are entitled to everything everyone else got is petty. Because it is.


Just be willing to admit that refusal to consider things that were enthusiastically and non-coercively engaged in before potentially sends a message. Because it does. 

#FaithfulWIfe and #samyeagar have already posted in this thread with posts that show compassion, and the ability to navigate these feelings with empathy. Your posts? Not so much.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> But I personally would not receive any message from a partner that implied I owed them anything at all in relation with what I had done before with a good feeling behind it. I also would not soothe it. “Well you did it with him...why not me?” would be the wrong way to say it to me. I’d bail.
> 
> On the other hand, if it is presented to me as a jealous or insecurity, I would be there to help soothe it out. “It makes me worry that you loved him more because you did it with him and not me” would elicit an empathetic response from me.


But aren't these essentially saying the same thing, but in different wording?

Because when I read your first paragraph, it looks like the "why not me?" implies the very same sentiments you write in your second paragraph. In other words, "Well, you did it with him...why not me? (implied: do you not feel as sexually attracted to me or as loving toward me?)"

It looks to me that the bottom line is the same in both situations.

A more entitled statement in the first paragraph would be: "You did it with him...you owe it to me". Now THAT statement shows entitlement and loss of control for the woman over her own body. That's out of bounds. However, since your first paragraph above involves a question, not an outright demand, I think it implies very much the same sentiments as your second paragraph above.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> The problem is that no man here (on this thread) actually has this problem. It’s all hypothetical.



The OP did.

But he's long gone.

The rest are commiserating


----------



## Wolfman1968

The sex advisor, Dan Savage, has used the expression "GGG" to represent the RESPONSIBILITIES that we have for our sexual partners. GGG = Good, Giving and Game. (i.e., be "game" to try things for your partner). In short, GGG means you have the responsibility to bring your A game to the bedroom.

If someone brings their "B" game to the bedroom, it can make their partner feel unloved and sexually undesirable. If things which USED to be a WILLING AND ENTHUSIASTIC part of their routine and now are not at all indulged in with their current partner, it can easily appear to that new partner that they are receiving the "B" game. It takes an effort in OTHER ways to show that, although this one activity is no longer done, everything else is so intense that they really are bringing their "A" game after all. They have to show that they are still GGG.

It's NOT "petty" or "entitled" or "immature" to feel less desired at receiving a "B" game in the bedroom. Here's a link that shows how important this kind of issue really is to a relationship:

https://www.salon.com/2012/09/12/science_proves_it_dan_savage_is_right/


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Easily one of the worst false analogies I've seen on TAM.



Don’t know. Sometimes it really is a bit of a toss up between coming upstairs when ‘called for duty’ or remaining on the amazing throne...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I wonder how common this is!:grin2:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a dream that Mrs. Conan cheated on me with a dark skinned fellow that was shorter than me, in much worse shape and far less endowed than I.



This sounds like an unrealistic dream. the ‘far less endowed’ part  



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cashcratebob

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, I disagree.
> 
> I think one of the main the reasons this thread is so long because it would pain certain posters to accept that refusing to do something sexually which was WILLINGLY done in the past *potentially* sends a message about the level of desire they have for their partner.
> 
> Unfortunately, that message is there. In fact, we have seen it by some of the very women who post negatively about men in this thread. Because when they post about how they think the men in this thread are petty, but brag "thank God I have a wonderful, sexy, understanding husband with whom I feel safe and respected enough to push the limits sexually", they have just PROVEN that THE WILLINGNESS TO EXPLORE/PUSH THE ENVELOPE SEXUALLY IS A MANIFESTATION OF THEIR FEELINGS TOWARD THEIR PARTNER.
> 
> Hell, why do cheaters do wild things with their affair partners that they refused to do with their spouses? Because the affair is purely sexual. So that's the level of their sexual engagement, which is invariably much higher than with the spouses. How many times do the cheaters say "It was just sex"? All the time! That's a message, right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this thread is about situations where the sexual activities were done WILLINGLY, ENTHUSIASTICALLY, NON-COERCIVELY, etc. It is NOT about abusive situations, and I defy you to show me one poster in this thread who posts anything about being obligated to perform sexual activities which were forced, etc.
> 
> These false straw-man comparisons to abusive situations keep coming up. Really, I hope you realize that it doesn't reinforce your arguments if you have to resort to these bogus comparisons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, cowgirl is now back "not off the menu" because of the great relationship you have with your hubby. Again, the relationship affects the willingness to do things.
> And "scary" acts? As posted about, coercive, abusive situations were ALWAYS exclusions in the thread. So they wouldn't be part of the OP's topic anyway. This thread is about *enthusiastic*, willing past actions, not coercion.
> 
> 
> 
> Just be willing to admit that refusal to consider things that were enthusiastically and non-coercively engaged in before potentially sends a message. Because it does.
> 
> #FaithfulWIfe and #samyeagar have already posted in this thread with posts that show compassion, and the ability to navigate these feelings with empathy. Your posts? Not so much.


The musings of supposed "Alpha" Females also supports everything you are saying. Again, as you have already stated, the stories of cheaters also gives credence. 

The down side to all of this discussion, is that if we get down to brass tacks, just bringing it up with your women is going to make you look needy, diminish you sexually in her eyes. This is of course if either party isn't so dense that they didn't realize the other partner was trying to instigate said sex act.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolfman1968 said:


> You have posted this in some form repeatedly in this thread. It appears to be your favorite Orange to compare to the OP's Apple.
> 
> If the porn resulted in the husband DENYING sexual favors to the wife, which is what the OP's thread is about, then I'd wager that EVERY poster here would say the woman is right to be upset. In fact, they're probably have a few choice invectives to throw at the man.
> 
> The OP's thread is about willfully DENYING sexual favors in a specific context, not about just being upset.


I am not certain if I am forgetting the context of this analogy, but the one way that the porn analogy works for me is when a wife does not like/feels insecure or threatened about porn and/or masturbation to the point that they want to refuse their husband that at all. That is seeking to soothe her self esteem at his expense in a way that seems similar to me. It is his body to self pleasure so long as that does not interfere with their relationship, intimacy and partnership, it seems to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Livvie said:


> Expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life framed in the "you did it for other men and therefore I'm unhappy unless you do it for me now" way does take away choice. If she wants the current partner to not be unhappy/stop scorekeeping/stop perseverating on what she did in the past she's going to have to engage in the same sex act she did in the past whether she wants to or not.


I would not say it takes AWAY choice. I think it was Buddy who said it gives them the choice with understanding of the man she is dealign with. It does offer a fairly untenable choice in terms of partnership.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> I use this language all the time, albeit not normally in a sexual context.
> 
> Because I firmly believe that it is in everyone's best interests to not be so fragile nor easily offended. Even as a progressive, it is my biggest kvetch with the left these days - having to police every word that comes out of my mouth because I might trigger someone's sensibilities, use the wrong pronoun, or otherwise invade their safe speech space.
> 
> If I am not intentionally trying to be offensive or to remove your personal agency, then please, lighten up!


Absolutely. But intention only goes so far. It is not about triggering someone's sensibilities. I do also think people should own their own sensibilities. The goal is to recognize that certain people's (female people, gay people, black and Hispanic people for example) have *systematically *had their voices squashed and when a response is for someone to not think/feel whatever because of not attending to ones meaning with careless language, one closes the door to understanding.


----------



## Livvie

NobodySpecial said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Expressing dissatisfaction to your partner with your sex life framed in the "you did it for other men and therefore I'm unhappy unless you do it for me now" way does take away choice. If she wants the current partner to not be unhappy/stop scorekeeping/stop perseverating on what she did in the past she's going to have to engage in the same sex act she did in the past whether she wants to or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not say it takes AWAY choice. I think it was Buddy who said it gives them the choice with understanding of the man she is dealign with. It does offer a fairly untenable choice in terms of partnership.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's like an ultimatum (in order to stay together and male be happy, she has to perform the sex act she did with someone else in the past, no matter how she feels about it).


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> This sounds like an unrealistic dream. the ‘far less endowed’ part


Not at all. Apparently he was dreaming about Mrs. C having sex with me!


----------



## personofinterest

> Because in a real scenario with a real partner, I would know for sure that nothing I did with anyone else would mean anything about my love or desire for my current man. So I would authentically express this and *he would know I was telling the truth.*


The reason this works for Nobody Special is the bolded part. Her husband would believe her.

I suspect no matter how it was said with reassurance to some of these men, they would choose not to believe the wife. Their undertone of dismissal of women is loud and clear. The way they counter and twist every argument tells me that is EXACTLY how they would discuss this with their wives, and they would not rest until they either had what they wanted or had made it clear they think their wives don't love them enough.

The reason I have a great relationship with my wonderful, sexy husband is because he ISN'T the kind of man who would want a list of all my previous activities to make sure he got his fair share. 

You can deny it all you want, but to 99.9% of women, this scorekeeping routine is UNATTRACTIVE. Period.

Do you want to be attractive to your wife or do you want to "be right"?


----------



## Holdingontoit

But not all of us are solid. And not all of us are willing to do the work to become solid. So the sex bot manufacturers will not lack for customers.

Even as we customers flagellate ourselves for being such losers that we can only get a sex bot.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Livvie said:


> Yes, it's like an ultimatum (in order to stay together and male be happy, she has to perform the sex act she did with someone else in the past, no matter how she feels about it).


It may or may not be an ultimatum. It may be merely an explanation of the situation. "This is how it is" or "This is how it makes me feel." That is not an ultimatum.

But even if it is delivered as an ultimatum, it is still giving her the choice. And that's a good thing, because it benefits her to know that either he's going to resent her if she doesn't do these things or she's going to resent him because she's doing things for him she'd rather not do. 

This is useful knowledge which should not be masked in a relationship. Only with the full disclosure can the couple then make a fully informed decision as to whether or not the relationship, on balance and in its entirety, is worth continuing. There may may be other elements of the relationship that are so strong that this disconnect can be managed. But simply keeping it hidden and ignoring it demeans the integrity of the relationship. 

In the end, it's no different than the woman saying "This is what I will and won't do. Take it or leave it." I don't hear anybody calling that an ultimatum. He would then have the choice, but it would be a fully informed choice, which is better than tap dancing around the issue, using delaying tactics, or offering glimpses of false hope. 

"If you don't do XXX, I'll divorce you" is an ultimatum.
"If you don't do XXX, I'll be disappointed" is not an ultimatum. 

But even with both of those, choice is offered. All ultimatums are choice offerings--they may include an element of coercion designed to influence which choice is made, but choice still exists.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> In the end, it's no different than the woman saying "This is what I will and won't do. Take it or leave it." I don't hear anybody calling that an ultimatum.


Quite true.

It looks like a double standard to me.

It's as if women's opinions about the sex they do or don't want are never to be questioned.

Whereas, with men, all of their opinions about sex they want can be easily dismissed or written off to "fragile male egos".


----------



## Livvie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's like an ultimatum (in order to stay together and male be happy, she has to perform the sex act she did with someone else in the past, no matter how she feels about it).
> 
> 
> 
> It may or may not be an ultimatum. It may be merely an explanation of the situation. "This is how it is" or "This is how it makes me feel." That is not an ultimatum.
> 
> But even if it is delivered as an ultimatum, it is still giving her the choice. And that's a good thing, because it benefits her to know that either he's going to resent her if she doesn't do these things or she's going to resent him because she's doing things for him she'd rather not do.
> 
> This is useful knowledge which should not be masked in a relationship. Only with the full disclosure can the couple then make a fully informed decision as to whether or not the relationship, on balance and in its entirety, is worth continuing. There may may be other elements of the relationship that are so strong that this disconnect can be managed. But simply keeping it hidden and ignoring it demeans the integrity of the relationship.
> 
> In the end, it's no different than the woman saying "This is what I will and won't do. Take it or leave it." I don't hear anybody calling that an ultimatum. He would then have the choice, but it would be a fully informed choice, which is better than tap dancing around the issue, using delaying tactics, or offering glimpses of false hope.
> 
> "If you don't do XXX, I'll divorce you" is an ultimatum.
> "If you don't do XXX, I'll be disappointed" is not an ultimatum.
> 
> But even with both of those, choice is offered. All ultimatums are choice offerings--they may include an element of coercion designed to influence which choice is made, but choice still exists.
Click to expand...

It IS different than someone saying "this is what I will and won't do". It's saying do this, because you did it in your past. 

One is a boundary about what someone will not do. The other is a coercive request for an act, needing someone to DO-- to engage in a behavior/act.


----------



## personofinterest

Buddy400 said:


> Quite true.
> 
> It looks like a double standard to me.
> 
> It's as if women's opinions about the sex they do or don't want are never to be questioned.
> 
> Whereas, with men, all of their opinions about sex they want can be easily dismissed or written off to "fragile male egos".


Only if one is being intentionally obtuse and extreme.

Most normal people live somewhere in the middle.

My husband's feelings about our sex life are extremely important to me. If there is something he needs that is absent, I want to provide it if I can do so without feeling like crap. And I would be empathetic if my inability made him feel some temporary disappointment.

However, my empathy would end the 100th time it came up after 6 months or a year when he is STILL asking me why I don't love him as much as I loved Bob.

And yeah, I think that is exactly what some of these men do.

Disappointment is understandable. Obsessing and CHOOSING to hang onto a grudge is ridiculous.

If you're THAT devastated that wifey won't let you do anal (because I guarantee you that is what 99% of this is about), THEN SET HER FREE AND GO FIND A BUTT GIRL.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Livvie said:


> It IS different than someone saying "this is what I will and won't do". It's saying do this, because you did it in your past.
> 
> One is a boundary about what someone will not do. The other is a coercive request for an act, needing someone to DO-- to engage in a behavior/act.


It's only coercive if you give them that power over you. Nothing says you have to do that. If you think performing an unpalatable sex act is not worth saving the relationship, then so be it... exactly the same as someone else thinking the lack of that act is not worth saving the relationship. 

And does it really matter why they are saying "do this," at least with regard to your ability to choose? Sure, it may matter why in terms of how you interpret the request, but whether the request is because you did it in the past or because he just digs it in general has absolutely no bearing on your right or ability to say no. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Period. 

If my wife wants me to take her to see Aida at The Met, but I don't want to, it makes no difference whether she wants it because her previous boyfriend did or if she just digs opera. None.


----------



## personofinterest

> It's only coercive if you give them that power over you


Why does this sound disturbingly like "you should have fought harder"....


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Quite true.
> 
> It looks like a double standard to me.
> 
> It's as if women's opinions about the sex they do or don't want are never to be questioned.
> 
> Whereas, with men, all of their opinions about sex they want can be easily dismissed or written off to "fragile male egos".


I am sorry that is what you see. That is not what I see being said.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I tend to agree with the women that saying "YDIFOM,WNFM" it is inherently coercive, and that given the many ways society tolerates men pressuring women into providing sex, it is likely to be very triggering for most women. So men who wish to be successful would do well to carefully phrase their communication in ways least likely to be triggering.

I also agree with the men that refusing to perform a particular sex act with your current partner, after having willingly performed it in the past for someone else, sends a strong message that you aren't into your current partner as much as you were into your prior partner.

And I think these issues are similar in that, a message is being sent and is going to be received in a certain way even if that was not the sender's intention. A man might not intend to coerce his partner, he might just be explaining how he feels, but she is likely to feel coerced and likely to resent it and shut down. Just as a man is going to feel rejected and shut down if he finds out his wife used to do things with other men that she won't do with him. The remedy is the same: if you are inadvertently sending a message that you don't value your current partner very highly, stop sending that message and make an effort to communicate that you DO value them highly.


----------



## musicftw07

I admit I haven't read this entire thread, but I've caught up on the last few pages.

Speaking only for me, if there was a particular sex act I wished to do with my girlfriend that she used to do but doesn't any longer, I could live that provided she offered reasons and context. "I don't want to" is not a sufficient explanation and does not provide any context as to why, which leaves my mind open to any and all possibilities, some benign and some not.

The point is that I'm left to fill in the blanks, and the conclusions I come to on my own would probably be negative ones.

So I side with the ladies on this one, but only to a point. The impression I get from them is that we men are to accept "I don't want to" at face value. That is the notion that I reject. I CAN accept that ladies might not wish to do something they used to, provided she shares with me what those reasons are.

Just to illustrate an example (and this is just an example that I came up with), "My ex husband was manipulative and emotionally abusive, and we used to do anal a lot, so I associate it with negative feelings." Something like that would be perfectly legit and easily comprehensible. And it provides context, which explains that it has nothing to do with how she perceives me sexually.

If a partner of either gender is going to erect a sexual barrier, then it is up to that person to explain why that barrier exists. A barrier with no context is, I think, what does the most damage.

So ladies, just talk to us and be frank about it.


----------



## personofinterest

> If a partner of either gender is going to erect a sexual barrier, then it is up to that person to explain why that barrier exists. A barrier with no context is, I think, what does the most damage.


I agree with this for sure. There are some women who go through a "wild phase" and feel badly about themselves afterward. They look back on that time with regret and crnge at the person they were then. I'm not saying women "should" feel that way, but some do. And we have made it quite clear in this thread that feelings are real and deserve empathy.

So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.

I ask because I get the idea that a lot of women in some of the non-hypotethical situations probably feel this way, and I sense that for their husbands, that explanation isn't enough.


----------



## anonmd

personofinterest said:


> Only if one is being intentionally obtuse and extreme.
> 
> Most normal people live somewhere in the middle.
> 
> My husband's feelings about our sex life are extremely important to me. If there is something he needs that is absent, I want to provide it if I can do so without feeling like crap. And I would be empathetic if my inability made him feel some temporary disappointment.
> 
> However, my empathy would end the 100th time it came up after 6 months or a year when he is STILL asking me why I don't love him as much as I loved Bob.
> 
> And yeah, I think that is exactly what some of these men do.
> 
> Disappointment is understandable. Obsessing and CHOOSING to hang onto a grudge is ridiculous.
> 
> If you're THAT devastated that wifey won't let you do anal (because I guarantee you that is what 99% of this is about), THEN SET HER FREE AND GO FIND A BUTT GIRL.


MEN- is that really what you all have in mind? 

WOMEN - If that is really what all this is about, then I agree with this post 100%. Never done anal with my wife, briefly discussed it once or twice - "exit only, don't do that" was the response. Seamed OK to me, didn't ask her if she had ever tried. Didn't wonder if she had but hey, maybe she did and found it unpleasant and that would be OK by me. 

Now, the cessation of BJ's is of more concern . Not get furious and hold a grudge for years concern but you know. She did em with me, probably did em with most previous guys yet she doesn't now. Wasn't an immediate end but, she never told that old joke about BJ's ending after marriage UNTIL the "I Do's" were pronounced. Coincidence? >0


----------



## personofinterest

> Now, the cessation of BJ's is of more concern


I'll be honest. I do not understand any woman who won't give a BJ. It is such a great way to focus completely on the man and it makes him feel so good. She's depriving HERSELF of something very intimate, IMO.


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> If a partner of either gender is going to erect a sexual barrier, then it is up to that person to explain why that barrier exists. A barrier with no context is, I think, what does the most damage.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this for sure. There are some women who go through a "wild phase" and feel badly about themselves afterward. They look back on that time with regret and crnge at the person they were then. I'm not saying women "should" feel that way, but some do. And we have made it quite clear in this thread that feelings are real and deserve empathy.
> 
> So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.
> 
> I ask because I get the idea that a lot of women in some of the non-hypotethical situations probably feel this way, and I sense that for their husbands, that explanation isn't enough.
Click to expand...

Again, speaking only for me, then yes, the example you provided would be sufficient explanation. "I was promiscuous and I regret it, so this sexual act makes me feel bad." I could understand it because the issue lies with her, and not me.

Where I think some men might not be satisfied with that expanding is the notion that "I should be able to overcome that feeling by how I sexually please you." And THAT issue would then be his to deal with, because he's got feelings of inadequacy that have no reason to exist.

For me, I would approach that this way. "Thank you for telling me how you feel. If it makes you uncomfortable then I won't press that issue. If you ever feel like you might be open to it sometime down the road, then please feel free to let me know. And if there's anything I can do to make you more comfortable then please let me know that too."

And I would drop it. The ball would be in her court at that point.

I think that, with most women who genuinely love and are attracted to their husbands, a man taking the approach of love and understanding (and actually demonstrating that with actions and not acting butthurt about it!) about it towards his wife could go a long way. It's all about trust, after all. Most people's hangups far pre-date their marriage, and it's not like my sausage is some kind of magic wand that makes all her prior sexual hangups go away. LOL (My GF really has no hangups, but you get the idea.)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> I'll be honest. I do not understand any woman who won't give a BJ. It is such a great way to focus completely on the man and it makes him feel so good. She's depriving HERSELF of something very intimate, IMO.


And yet that is not nearly so common a sentiment as it should be. 

I guess many people (both genders to be fair) don't get that much of a charge out of pleasing others.


----------



## personofinterest

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And yet that is not nearly so common a sentiment as it should be.
> 
> I guess many people (both genders to be fair) don't get that much of a charge out of pleasing others.


I wonder if that is the core of the problem. Maybe if we all focused on pleasing our partners instead of what we "get" out of the deal, the problem wouldn't exist.

I know. Utopia that doesn't exist.


----------



## Married but Happy

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if that is the core of the problem. Maybe if we all focused on pleasing our partners instead of what we "get" out of the deal, the problem wouldn't exist.
> 
> I know. Utopia that doesn't exist.


But it _does_ exist - in _some_ relationships.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Married but Happy said:


> But it _does_ exist - in _some_ relationships.


I took it that her vision of this utopia was a place where _everyone _thought like that.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

I'm not sure what activities my wife has engaged in with others in her past. The closest I have come to inquiring is, "I don't know who taught you that but I like it!" Pressuring a woman with regards to anything relating to sex is like pressuring a man to have an erection.....NOPE.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> I'm not sure what activities my wife has engaged in with others in her past. The closest I have come to inquiring is, "I don't know who taught you that but I like it!" Pressuring a woman with regards to anything relating to sex is like pressuring a man to have an erection.....NOPE.


While I agree with the general sentiment here, that pressuring a woman sexually will only lead to negative results, I'm not so sure it works equally both ways. There have been times I've been feeling poorly, injured, stressed by work, dealing with death in the family...whatever... or just mad at my wife or just not feeling like sex for no reason I could put my finger on... and my wife has said she'd be very disappointed if I didn't rise to the occasion. Her pressuring me at these times never impaired my ability to respond.


----------



## Randy Lafever

The harder you focus on trying to have an erection, the more difficult it will be. They're tricky like that.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> I agree with this for sure. There are some women who go through a "wild phase" and feel badly about themselves afterward. They look back on that time with regret and crnge at the person they were then. I'm not saying women "should" feel that way, but some do. And we have made it quite clear in this thread that feelings are real and deserve empathy.
> 
> So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.
> 
> I ask because I get the idea that a lot of women in some of the non-hypotethical situations probably feel this way, and I sense that for their husbands, that explanation isn't enough.


Honestly I would hope I would know about that before, because I probably would not marry someone that approached sex this way (unless they did some real work to correct that). We would not be compatible. I just think this is a much greater problem that shows an overall unhealthy way of thinking about sex. Namely that sex is not about intimacy to be shared but a form of currency. This is exactly the scenario (which I think is prevalent) that I posted about before, maybe even in answer to you. I think it's important to talk about this before you get married, which also leads to my feeling that if the partner's response to you is it's none of your business, break up with them. You will be better off and will stand a much better chance of having a healthy sex life. In the same respect if you are a women who was promiscuous and is not ashamed better to find out if your partner can handle it. 

The truth about this is her having regret has nothing to do with the act but really the reasons why the act was done. The act itself isn't the problem she feels bad about her motives and the partner at the time. But the same act done from a loving exciting place with someone who really just want to share a deep intimacy can be a beautiful think for both of them. Better to have someone who is at least willing to try it and can separate the act from the motives to do the act, even the general bad experience presumably because of whom the act was done with. Personally it's easier to be with someone who just gets that to begin with. 

This is why I would be weary of marring a someone who was very promiscuous. I would at least want to know if they were that way because they enjoyed sex or if their mindset was to use sex as a form of currency.


----------



## personofinterest

sokillme said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this for sure. There are some women who go through a "wild phase" and feel badly about themselves afterward. They look back on that time with regret and crnge at the person they were then. I'm not saying women "should" feel that way, but some do. And we have made it quite clear in this thread that feelings are real and deserve empathy.
> 
> So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.
> 
> I ask because I get the idea that a lot of women in some of the non-hypotethical situations probably feel this way, and I sense that for their husbands, that explanation isn't enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I would hope I would know about that before, because I probably would not marry someone that approached sex this way (unless they did some real work to correct that). We would not be compatible. I just think this is a much greater problem that shows an overall unhealthy way of thinking about sex. Namely that sex is not about intimacy to be shared but a form of currency. This is exactly the scenario (which I think is prevalent) that I posted about before, maybe even in answer to you. I think it's important to talk about this before you get married, which also leads to my feeling that if the partner's response to you is it's none of your business, break up with them. You will be better off and will stand a much better chance of having a healthy sex life. In the same respect if you are a women who was promiscuous and is not ashamed better to find out if your partner can handle it.
> 
> The truth about this is her having regret has nothing to do with the act but really the reasons why the act was done. The act itself isn't the problem she feels bad about her motives and the partner at the time. But the same act done from a loving exciting place with someone who really just want to share a deep intimacy can be a beautiful think for both of them. The sex act still comes down to something to bartered with and not an experience to be shared with someone you love. Personally it's easier to be with someone who just gets that to begin with.
> 
> This is why I would be weary of marring a someone who was very promiscuous. I would at least want to know if they were that way because they enjoyed sex or if their mindset was to use sex as a form of currency.
Click to expand...

How exactly is being honest about being regretful of ones past using sex as currency???

That makes NO sense. Mone.


----------



## musicftw07

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what activities my wife has engaged in with others in her past. The closest I have come to inquiring is, "I don't know who taught you that but I like it!" Pressuring a woman with regards to anything relating to sex is like pressuring a man to have an erection.....NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree with the general sentiment here, that pressuring a woman sexually will only lead to negative results, I'm not so sure it works equally both ways. There have been times I've been feeling poorly, injured, stressed by work, dealing with death in the family...whatever... or just mad at my wife or just not feeling like sex for no reason I could put my finger on... and my wife has said she'd be very disappointed if I didn't rise to the occasion. Her pressuring me at these times never impaired my ability to respond.
Click to expand...

IMO, her saying she'd be very disappointed if you didn't "rise to the occasion" is just as bad as a husband saying he'd be disappointed if his wife didn't similarly rise to his occasion.

Not picking on your wife, by the way. Just illustrating a double standard that I think definitely exists and needs to be addressed.

No means no, after all. 😁


----------



## personofinterest

musicftw07 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what activities my wife has engaged in with others in her past. The closest I have come to inquiring is, "I don't know who taught you that but I like it!" Pressuring a woman with regards to anything relating to sex is like pressuring a man to have an erection.....NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree with the general sentiment here, that pressuring a woman sexually will only lead to negative results, I'm not so sure it works equally both ways. There have been times I've been feeling poorly, injured, stressed by work, dealing with death in the family...whatever... or just mad at my wife or just not feeling like sex for no reason I could put my finger on... and my wife has said she'd be very disappointed if I didn't rise to the occasion. Her pressuring me at these times never impaired my ability to respond.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IMO, her saying she'd be very disappointed if you didn't "rise to the occasion" is just as bad as a husband saying he'd be disappointed if his wife didn't similarly rise to his occasion.
> 
> Not picking on your wife, by the way. Just illustrating a double standard that I think definitely exists and needs to be addressed.
> 
> No means no, after all. 😁
Click to expand...

I completely agree her remark was just as bad.

Oops 😉


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> Oops 😉


Haha. I'm not picking in you either. 😂 I've been in a similar position before, and naturally gave in. It happens.

It just sucks to be put in that position, especially when your mind is saying one thing and your willy is saying another.


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> I agree with this for sure. There are some women who go through a "wild phase" and feel badly about themselves afterward. They look back on that time with regret and crnge at the person they were then. I'm not saying women "should" feel that way, but some do. And we have made it quite clear in this thread that feelings are real and deserve empathy.
> 
> So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.


If I understand the male perspective being displayed here, even though I don't share it, the reason is because the guy wants to know WHY.

Why did you find it acceptable to be ****ty then but not now? The lingering question behind the question is "was it because I'm not as hot or sexy as your ex, and if I was, would you then feel free to be ****ty again?"

The question is - did you change, or do I not engage a part of your sexuality that other men were capable of finding?


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if that is the core of the problem. Maybe if we all focused on pleasing our partners instead of what we "get" out of the deal, the problem wouldn't exist.
> 
> I know. Utopia that doesn't exist.


Wouldn't work on my wife. Her disinterest in giving a BJ has nothing to do with my pleasure and everything to do with her disgust, which is real. Thinking too hard on it gives her an upset stomach.

They call it a "job" for a reason.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> How exactly is being honest about being regretful of ones past using sex as currency???
> 
> That makes NO sense. Mone.


It's not the "being honest" part it's the reasons for having sex in the first place.

*I am going to do this because it will make someone like me.* -- That's using sex as a form of currency and it's pretty common. In this case the person may not even like sex but will be sexually active while dating because, again, it's being done to attract a mate. Both sexes do this and it why lots of spouses are shocked when they get married and their partner soon afterwords loses interest in the sexual part of their marriage. 

So once you get married and have a long term partner it's. 

* I am not going to do this because I know they like me, and I got what I want.* Now they don't have to put in the effort. 

Better to marry someone who thinks 

* I want to do this because it's fun and it's something we can do together and it will make us closer.* (That to me is a healthy way to think about sexual intimacy) 

Unfortunately there are just lots of people who were promiscuous at a young age (for the wrong reasons) and in turn damaged themselves and the potential for having the most fulfilling sexual future with their long term partners. This of course is never talked about, but it's a real thing. Also a part of the problem is just the way they think about sex in general. They don't think about it the third way I mentioned, so there is no chance of ever healing. Sex is really not about intimacy for them but something to barter with.

See if you start to see sex NOT AS something you do to get someone to like you but as something you share to get closer, then I think if you are damaged you can get to the point were you understand that the act itself wasn't the problem but your motives for doing the act. You feel dirty because you feel like you used your sexuality to get someone (who treated you poorly most likely). So the act isn't the problem it's how you used your sexuality. Maybe if you did it for the right reasons with a loving partner it would be a totally different experience. 

Now say you change your thinking to and you start to see that your partner wants to do this with you because they want to experience something that is exciting to them, with you! Then it's not something dirty but something beautiful. This is also assuming the act is not immoral and that your partner is a good and loving partner. I am not talking about if your husband is the same kind of frat boy ******* that the ex partner was. I suspect just as many problems are because the husband also see sex as a form of currency, which is used to make him feel good about himself. In those cases it's just as unhealthy. 

Overall sex as a way to create deep intimacy is great and should strengthen your marriage. 

Sex just done selfishly to make you feel good about yourself is probably going to end up causing problems in your marriage.

Both partners need to think about what their motives are and what they are projecting to their mate.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's only coercive if you give them that power over you. Nothing says you have to do that. If you think performing an unpalatable sex act is not worth saving the relationship, then so be it... exactly the same as someone else thinking the lack of that act is not worth saving the relationship.
> 
> And does it really matter why they are saying "do this," at least with regard to your ability to choose? Sure, it may matter why in terms of how you interpret the request, but whether the request is because you did it in the past or because he just digs it in general has absolutely no bearing on your right or ability to say no. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Period.
> 
> If my wife wants me to take her to see Aida at The Met, but I don't want to, it makes no difference whether she wants it because her previous boyfriend did or if she just digs opera. None.


I hear and read a lot about women being uncomfortable about saying "no", growing up feeling that their role is to please, not being comfortable asking for a raise, etc. In this case, they're complaining about feeling like they're being forced to do something that, in reality, they have the capability to refuse.

This is valid and probably truetrue. It may well be due to past societal flaws (although I don't think it all is).

However, the solution these days seems to be that society should be re-made to keep women from ever having to be put in these situations. That's a noble goal but it's like waiting for the last racist to die before expecting blacks to make any progress. Eradicating all racism is a noble goal, but it's not likely to happen any time soon.

It seems to me that a better tactic would be assertiveness training for women (if that is seen to be the problem). Get a group of women together and have them practice yelling "NO" at the top of their lungs. This approach also treats women as having agency instead of being victims (which they indeed sometimes are).


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> I tend to agree with the women that saying "YDIFOM,WNFM" it is inherently coercive, and that given the many ways society tolerates men pressuring women into providing sex, it is likely to be very triggering for most women. So men who wish to be successful would do well to carefully phrase their communication in ways least likely to be triggering.
> 
> I also agree with the men that refusing to perform a particular sex act with your current partner, after having willingly performed it in the past for someone else, sends a strong message that you aren't into your current partner as much as you were into your prior partner.
> 
> And I think these issues are similar in that, a message is being sent and is going to be received in a certain way even if that was not the sender's intention. A man might not intend to coerce his partner, he might just be explaining how he feels, but she is likely to feel coerced and likely to resent it and shut down. Just as a man is going to feel rejected and shut down if he finds out his wife used to do things with other men that she won't do with him. The remedy is the same: if you are inadvertently sending a message that you don't value your current partner very highly, stop sending that message and make an effort to communicate that you DO value them highly.


Absolutely. It behooves one to make one's argument in the most effective way possible. That would mean avoiding triggering statements instead of arguing over whether or not those statements SHOULD be triggering.


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> So if a woman says, "When I did those things, I was promiscuous and didn't like myself. I wish I'd never gone down that path. I don't want to do X because it reminds me of a phase in my life I regret," would that be sufficient.


Yes. As long as I knew about the "wild phase" beforehand.

For the record, this is/was the situation with my wife, although I'm not aware of any particular act she did with others but not with me.

There is one situation which would bother me (I'm not going to list it because my wife can read my posts here, although she rarely does).

Let's say it's swallowing (which it isn't and, no, it's not anal either).

In one of out first sexual encounters, she told me that she didn't like doing something (something that I would like but can live without). Therefore, of course, I never tried it and will not (who wants to make their wife do something she doesn't want to do?). It would be at worst something she didn't like. Nothing painful. Nothing humiliating. Nothing dangerous.

I'm assuming that she never did this with anyone else or did it once (which would be how she discovered that she didn't like it).

Now, I could find out (I hope I don't) that she did this multiple times with someone even though she didn't like it. Why might that be? Well, perhaps he knew that she didn't like it but he liked it and so he did it anyway and she just went along in order to make him happy.

I can see that she would appreciate a man who gave her happiness more weight than his own and that is probably one of the things she likes so much about me.

But, on the other hand, it would be hard to avoid feeling like a bit of a chump if she went out of her way to give the guy who didn't care about her happiness something that I don't get to do because I'm a good guy. She would have cared about the "bad" guy enough to discomfort herself a bit but wouldn't do the same for me (the man she is madly in love with). Or, and I really don't want to consider this (and there's no reason I should as she's often told me I'm the best lover she's ever had), she was driven to a level of passion with some other guy that was sufficient to overcome the "ick" factor.

I wouldn't do anything about it. I wouldn't demand that she now do it for me. But I wouldn't feel good about it either. 

I don't bring it up with her because it's not important enough to risk damaging the relationship. But, that's the sort of thing I could imagine being a problem.


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if that is the core of the problem. Maybe if we all focused on pleasing our partners instead of what we "get" out of the deal, the problem wouldn't exist.


That's the way it works in my marriage


----------



## 269370

Randy Lafever said:


> The harder you focus on trying to have an erection, the more difficult it will be. They're tricky like that.




You NEVER focus on erection. Focus on the woman, or better, a part thereof, and erection will come.
Focusing on erection is like sneaking up on a deer; it will freak out and run away.


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----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> Honestly I would hope I would know about that before, because I probably would not marry someone that approached sex this way (unless they did some real work to correct that). We would not be compatible. I just think this is a much greater problem that shows an overall unhealthy way of thinking about sex. Namely that sex is not about intimacy to be shared but a form of currency. This is exactly the scenario (which I think is prevalent) that I posted about before, maybe even in answer to you. I think it's important to talk about this before you get married, which also leads to my feeling that if the partner's response to you is it's none of your business, break up with them. You will be better off and will stand a much better chance of having a healthy sex life. In the same respect if you are a women who was promiscuous and is not ashamed better to find out if your partner can handle it.
> 
> The truth about this is her having regret has nothing to do with the act but really the reasons why the act was done. The act itself isn't the problem she feels bad about her motives and the partner at the time. But the same act done from a loving exciting place with someone who really just want to share a deep intimacy can be a beautiful think for both of them. Better to have someone who is at least willing to try it and can separate the act from the motives to do the act, even the general bad experience presumably because of whom the act was done with. Personally it's easier to be with someone who just gets that to begin with.
> 
> This is why I would be weary of marring a someone who was very promiscuous. I would at least want to know if they were that way because they enjoyed sex or if their mindset was to use sex as a form of currency.



And how would you find out the true reasons? You probably wouldn’t even be able to know whether they were ‘promiscuous’ or not because people generally don’t talk about that stuff. (Only in these hypothetical scenarios do people talk about it). You are basically saying that the only acceptable woman to you would be a virgin. That’s a little restrictive.



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----------



## 269370

Cletus said:


> They call it a "job" for a reason.



‘Cos they get paid for it? 🤨🧐



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----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> as she's often told me I'm the best lover she's ever had),



I’m curious how this works: do women just say this without being prompted? (Why?) or do men ask them this question? (And then what choice do they have but to say whatever the man wants to hear?)





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----------



## personofinterest

sokillme said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> How exactly is being honest about being regretful of ones past using sex as currency???
> 
> That makes NO sense. Mone.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the "being honest" part it's the reasons for having sex in the first place.
> 
> *I am going to do this because it will make someone like me.* -- That's using sex as a form of currency and it's pretty common. In this case the person may not even like sex but will be sexually active while dating because, again, it's being done to attract a mate. Both sexes do this and it why lots of spouses are shocked when they get married and their partner soon afterwords loses interest in the sexual part of their marriage.
> 
> So once you get married and have a long term partner it's.
> 
> * I am not going to do this because I know they like me, and I got what I want.* Now they don't have to put in the effort.
> 
> Better to marry someone who thinks
> 
> * I want to do this because it's fun and it's something we can do together and it will make us closer.* (That to me is a healthy way to think about sexual intimacy)
> 
> Unfortunately there are just lots of people who were promiscuous at a young age (for the wrong reasons) and in turn damaged themselves and the potential for having the most fulfilling sexual future with their long term partners. This of course is never talked about, but it's a real thing. Also a part of the problem is just the way they think about sex in general. They don't think about it the third way I mentioned, so there is no chance of ever healing. Sex is really not about intimacy for them but something to barter with.
> 
> See if you start to see sex NOT AS something you do to get someone to like you but as something you share to get closer, then I think if you are damaged you can get to the point were you understand that the act itself wasn't the problem but your motives for doing the act. You feel dirty because you feel like you used your sexuality to get someone (who treated you poorly most likely). So the act isn't the problem it's how you used your sexuality. Maybe if you did it for the right reasons with a loving partner it would be a totally different experience.
> 
> Now say you change your thinking to and you start to see that your partner wants to do this with you because they want to experience something that is exciting to them, with you! Then it's not something dirty but something beautiful. This is also assuming the act is not immoral and that your partner is a good and loving partner. I am not talking about if your husband is the same kind of frat boy ******* that the ex partner was. I suspect just as many problems are because the husband also see sex as a form of currency, which is used to make him feel good about himself. In those cases it's just as unhealthy.
> 
> Overall sex as a way to create deep intimacy is great and should strengthen your marriage.
> 
> Sex just done selfishly to make you feel good about yourself is probably going to end up causing problems in your marriage.
> 
> Both partners need to think about what their motives are and what they are projecting to their mate.
Click to expand...

Your assumption is that people cannot grow, which doesnt surprise me. But it's not necessarily an accurate assumption.

I think your view is colored by the view you have taken of women due to your ex.


----------



## 269370

I am curious (and I don’t hold a position either way), but what do women actually feel is the right thing to do if a wife has previously engaged enthusiastically in anal and swallowing as well as sex twice a day with someone else but with her current husband, it’s once every month and missionary only.

Disregard for a moment whatever the husband blabbers about it. Should she:

1. Do something about it; i.e pick herself up and get back on that sex horse with her husband or

2. Continue not being bothered about it?

I understand the intense dislike towards the way a guy may put his dissatisfaction with a situation like that but what do they think a woman should actually do?

It seems some are arguing both sides: they want men to stop acting like whiny little *****es but at the same time they don’t understand how a woman can withhold sex/BJs or whatever from her newest/latest husband.


We need some practical suggestions here...


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----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

musicftw07 said:


> IMO, her saying she'd be very disappointed if you didn't "rise to the occasion" is just as bad as a husband saying he'd be disappointed if his wife didn't similarly rise to his occasion.
> 
> Not picking on your wife, by the way. Just illustrating a double standard that I think definitely exists and needs to be addressed.
> 
> No means no, after all. 😁


I see it very differently. How could I possibly be upset by my wife expressing a desire for me? Nothing is more motivational. Such behavior has pulled me out of a funk more than once.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> Your assumption is that people cannot grow, which doesnt surprise me. But it's not necessarily an accurate assumption.
> 
> I think your view is colored by the view you have taken of women due to your ex.


Huh, when did I say people can't grow? 

Second of all my ex which was about 19 years ago, lets just say she was not adverse to anything. 

So not sure where you are getting that. 

People can grow but there has to be an acknowledgment that there is even an issue.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I see it very differently. How could I possibly be upset by my wife expressing a desire for me? Nothing is more motivational. Such behavior has pulled me out of a funk more than once.


And to be both perfectly clear as well as fair to my wife, she'd never actually hold it against me if I did decide to deny her based on not feeling well, so maybe this scenario isn't a good comparison to the hypothetical that seems to be central to this thread.

But then we're also not talking about one time denials either, but rather protracted, long term behavior. Even my LD wife might be inclined to get upset if I did so for months on end.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> And how would you find out the true reasons? You probably wouldn’t even be able to know whether they were ‘promiscuous’ or not because people generally don’t talk about that stuff. (Only in these hypothetical scenarios do people talk about it). You are basically saying that the only acceptable woman to you would be a virgin. That’s a little restrictive.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure who you are dating but before I was married I knew all about my partners sex life. I also know all about people who are not my partners. I am pretty open, so people are pretty open with me. I know enough about my wife, I mean I don't know general details but I really don't care. I was more concerned what her feelings about sex were in general. I wanted her to think about it like me, in terms of intimacy. Also neither one of us had a high count because we both wanted to be in love to do it, because we wanted it to be special and unique. 

I am glad I felt that way and she did too because I really don't have to worry about comparisons. Sex for us is an expression of love, not some way I rate her response to me, or something she did for me to get me interested. I didn't even attempt to have sex with her until I was sure I was in love with her. I mean of course the desire was their but I wasn't going to act on it. 

Worked out for me.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> I am curious (and I don’t hold a position either way), but what do women actually feel is the right thing to do if a wife has previously engaged enthusiastically in anal and swallowing as well as sex twice a day with someone else but with her current husband, it’s once every month and missionary only.
> 
> Disregard for a moment whatever the husband blabbers about it. Should she:
> 
> 1. Do something about it; i.e pick herself up and get back on that sex horse with her husband or
> 
> 2. Continue not being bothered about it?
> 
> I understand the intense dislike towards the way a guy may put his dissatisfaction with a situation like that but what do they think a woman should actually do?
> 
> It seems some are arguing both sides: they want men to stop acting like whiny little *****es but at the same time they don’t understand how a woman can withhold sex/BJs or whatever from her newest/latest husband.
> 
> 
> We need some practical suggestions here...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well I guess the question is why she wanted to do that with someone else. My guess is she married him because he is safe and a good provider but isn't really into him sexual. I feel bad for the husband in that case. Either way she doesn't sound like the greatest wife. Why is she so lazy in bed?

You seem to be of the opinion that she isn't required to put any effort into their sex life. It's the same thing as the guy who comes home and plays video games all night. Who never romances his wife but just expects her to cook every day. I would say he is a lazy selfish husband. She is kind of a **** wife if all she does is missionary every once in a while to get it over with. A lazy partner for any reason is just a lazy partner. 

In this case you are saying it isn't even that she doesn't like it she just doesn't want to do it with him. Guess it's up to him if he can live with it. If it was just being lazy or not being into me I think I would just move on. Life is too short.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> Not sure who you are dating but before I was married I knew all about my partners sex life. I also know all about people who are not my partners. I am pretty open, so people are pretty open with me. I know enough about my wife, I mean I don't know general details but I really don't care. I was more concerned what her feelings about sex were in general. I wanted her to think about it like me, in terms of intimacy. Also neither one of us had a high count because we both wanted to be in love to do it, because we wanted it to be special and unique.
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad I felt that way and she did too because I really don't have to worry about comparisons. Sex for us is an expression of love, not some way I rate her response to me, or something she did for me to get me interested. I didn't even attempt to have sex with her until I was sure I was in love with her. I mean of course the desire was their but I wasn't going to act on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Worked out for me.




I think that is admirable. I am just not sure, thinking rationally, whether a woman who had multiple sexual partners and a lot of casual sex will be advertising it.
And it’s very difficult to ensure someone else thinks similarly as you. (Though sometimes I think if I wanted to be with someone who thinks like me, I would just be with myself.

I haven’t dated many (and both me and my wife only had sex with each other though I did have minor sexual activities with other girls in the past).


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----------



## I shouldnthave

Cletus said:


> Wouldn't work on my wife. Her disinterest in giving a BJ has nothing to do with my pleasure and everything to do with her disgust, which is real. Thinking too hard on it gives her an upset stomach.
> 
> They call it a "job" for a reason.


Haha! Well.... Now I am curious, ya don't "blow" while going down on a guy, so why the heck are they called blow jobs?!

Me? I looove giving my husband blow jobs, few things will get me more hot and bothered then giving a sloppy BJ. 

But I am not into swallowing at all, and like you mentioned, it has nothing to do with my husband, or me not wanting to pleasure him, and everything with the fact it makes me want to vomit... It HAS made me vomit when I have tried to force myself to get over it. I wish I didn't have this adversion, I have tried for many years to get over it, and at this point I am over trying any more. 

So, my husband, being enlightened like you are, doesn't want me to try to make myself swallow. I can take it on my chin, face, even lips (and of course breasts, butt etc are a go), I just can't take a mouth full, and really can't swallow.

Sex, for us, is about giving pleasure. If an act brings one of us disgust or displeasure, it's not something we do.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> You seem to be of the opinion that she isn't required to put any effort into their sex life..



I deliberately am withholding opinion (actually I do not have one) because I’m curious what majority of women think should be done in this case.
The focus is so much on the guy whining about it but what should the woman do? (If anything).




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----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> And it’s very difficult to ensure someone else thinks similarly as you.


It's as easy as, I think like this here is why. No judgments if you think differently but how do you think? If they were to say like in your hypothetical, I did a bunch of stuff I am not proud of, I would at least say, does that mean that you will never do those things again? I have just never had a problem with people opening up to me. I can't tell you the number of women I dated who would tell me terrible stories about rape or any other number of things. I think it was because I was open and didn't judge. I generally get that people want to have sex and that people do dumb stuff.

I have a problem when people intentionally hurt others that is when I am not as nice.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> I deliberately am withholding opinion (actually I do not have one) because I’m curious what majority of women think should be done in this case.
> The focus is so much on the guy whining about it but what should the woman do? (If anything).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK so the question was directed to the women of this thread. I am actually curious too, what should the guy do if his wife is basically just doing missionary but was not that way with other partners? We get that he shouldn't be whiny but what should he do.


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## 269370

I shouldnthave said:


> Haha! Well.... Now I am curious, ya don't "blow" while going down on a guy, so why the heck are they called blow jobs?!
> 
> 
> 
> Me? I looove giving my husband blow jobs, few things will get me more hot and bothered then giving a sloppy BJ.
> 
> 
> 
> But I am not into swallowing at all, and like you mentioned, it has nothing to do with my husband, or me not wanting to pleasure him, and everything with the fact it makes me want to vomit... It HAS made me vomit when I have tried to force myself to get over it. I wish I didn't have this adversion, I have tried for many years to get over it, and at this point I am over trying any more.
> 
> 
> 
> So, my husband, being enlightened like you are, doesn't want me to try to make myself swallow. I can take it on my chin, face, even lips (and of course breasts, butt etc are a go), I just can't take a mouth full, and really can't swallow.
> 
> 
> 
> Sex, for us, is about giving pleasure. If an act brings one of us disgust or displeasure, it's not something we do.




Tell him to eat more pineapple and cranberries...makes semen taste fruity and delightful 

No, my wife is the same actually. It doesn’t bother me at all. In fact when she asks me to cum on her face, I already feel guilty before it shoots out so that I have to really force myself not to divert. Male orgasm m happens just before semen comes out and anything that happens after the actual orgasm, makes no difference to me whatsoever.


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## sokillme

I shouldnthave said:


> Haha! Well.... Now I am curious, ya don't "blow" while going down on a guy, so why the heck are they called blow jobs?!
> 
> Me? I looove giving my husband blow jobs, few things will get me more hot and bothered then giving a sloppy BJ.
> 
> But I am not into swallowing at all, and like you mentioned, it has nothing to do with my husband, or me not wanting to pleasure him, and everything with the fact it makes me want to vomit... It HAS made me vomit when I have tried to force myself to get over it. I wish I didn't have this adversion, I have tried for many years to get over it, and at this point I am over trying any more.
> 
> So, my husband, being enlightened like you are, doesn't want me to try to make myself swallow. I can take it on my chin, face, even lips (and of course breasts, butt etc are a go), I just can't take a mouth full, and really can't swallow.
> 
> Sex, for us, is about giving pleasure. If an act brings one of us disgust or displeasure, it's not something we do.


In this case I would be fine with this. But see it's your attitude about sex that makes it OK.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> It's as easy as, I think like this here is why. No judgments if you think differently but how do you think? If they were to say like in your hypothetical, I did a bunch of stuff I am not proud of, I would at least say, does that mean that you will never do those things again? I have just never had a problem with people opening up to me. I can't tell you the number of women I dated who would tell me terrible stories about rape or any other number of things. I think it was because I was open and didn't judge. I generally get that people want to have sex and that people do dumb stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem when people intentionally hurt others that is when I am not as nice.




But can you REALLY avoid not judging them if your criteria for dating a woman are very specific? (No women with an active sexual past allowed etc )


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## happiness27

PigglyWiggly said:


> I'm not sure what activities my wife has engaged in with others in her past. The closest I have come to inquiring is, "I don't know who taught you that but I like it!"  Pressuring a woman with regards to anything relating to sex is like pressuring a man to have an erection.....NOPE.



For some people, who might be considered "creative" or not, a technique, move, touch or staging, there is no "who taught you that" - it's original. Nobody taught me anything. I do what I want, what I make up as I go along. I'm very unpredictable. In all of my work either as a professional creative artist - OR in the bedroom, originality is just what I do based on the moment that is presented. It's not forced, planned out or mapped out or segmented into steps for any purposes. It's original expression. 

As for pressuring a woman about sex, absolutely right and good analogy. Sex is a very intimate, personal thing that people do with each other that carries the power to either transform, elicit magnificent responses or cause damage. I firmly believe that we must take great care with how we handle each other regarding sex. This is an area where we must be totally selfless in order to receive the greatest abundance in return.


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## PigglyWiggly

happiness27 said:


> _For some people, who might be considered "creative" or not, a technique, move, touch or staging, there is no "who taught you that" - it's original. Nobody taught me anything. I do what I want, what I make up as I go along. I'm very unpredictable. In all of my work either as a professional creative artist - OR in the bedroom, originality is just what I do based on the moment that is presented. It's not forced, planned out or mapped out or segmented into steps for any purposes. It's original expression. _
> 
> As for pressuring a woman about sex, absolutely right and good analogy. Sex is a very intimate, personal thing that people do with each other that carries the power to either transform, elicit magnificent responses or cause damage. I firmly believe that we must take great care with how we handle each other regarding sex. This is an area where we must be totally selfless in order to receive the greatest abundance in return.


Agreed and that was the case here. My wife and I speak in movie quotes at times and that was an old Point Break reference. 
;0


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## happiness27

I am having a hard time stomaching that so many men feel they are deprived sexually if they don't have a partner who will swallow their cum or be allowed to penetrate their female partner anally. 

For me - and not to say for other women who just LOVE anal sex, that's their preference - I HATE anal sex. I don't like it because it contains fecal material and is adjacent to the vagina and urethra opening which, if they get contaminated, then there's a week-to-ten-day issue to clear up before sex again to say nothing for the passing back and forth between partners potential which puts both out of commission and at the doctor's office. 

It's unnecessary. There's a vaginal opening and dozens of incredibly fun other mind-blowing activities. Supposedly it's "tighter" - oh, great, so that means there's something wrong with the vagina (so thinks a woman). 

It's not lubricated. It's filthy and it hurts - and for a woman, there's no point because she doesn't have a prostate to stimulate. It's just a power trip for a guy and a point of discussion for *some* guys to other guys like they are a band of conquerers. 

If you don't know the term, sorry for TMI but look up rectocele. If a woman has one, anal is just not a good idea at all. And if she had one and had it repaired, anal sex is a definite no-no.

STDs are readily transmitted anally and the studies are unclear about anal sex and anal cancer connection but this girl is taking no chances - especially when it's not necessary - it's just a porno *want*.

As for BJs, I'll do fellatio IF I WANT TO but I'm not going to do anything I don't want to do EVER. No one should do something they don't want to do and if that's a deal breaker for their partner to continue the relationship, then the dissatisfied partner has a decision to make...leave or STFU and look for the positive things in their sex life.

Porn is a double-edge sword. It has created a want-world that has pulled a veil over what we all should be appreciating about the partner in front of us. It has made us consumers of orgasms instead of from-the-heart, original and creative lovers. It has objectified people and sex to the point that instead of loving what we have, we want what we don't have. 

If I was married to someone who pouted over not getting a BJ or anal, I would dump him. It wouldn't be over the sex. It would be over the lack of creativity within the sexual expression. A person who is so focused on two things promoted by low-brow websites for jack-off stations is missing the dozens - hundreds - of other expressions that are out there when real people who really dig each other are in a real situation. Give me a guy who can spark my fire with a look, a well-timed/well-placed touch, who created an ambiance in a softly lit room and holds my gaze as I cum. If a man isn't turned on by that, he needs to find the situation that gives him that for which he longs instead of complaining to the woman who loves him that her vagina isn't enough to please him.


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> But can you REALLY avoid not judging them if your criteria for dating a woman are very specific? (No women with an active sexual past allowed etc )
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes because it was not about judging it was about our compatibility. I always got the appeal it's just I wanted something different. I had a lot of girls just think I was weird and move on. I was fine with that, by what today's standards are supposed to be I am weird.


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## happiness27

PigglyWiggly said:


> Agreed and that was the case here. My wife and I speak in movie quotes at times and that was an old Point Break reference.
> ;0


IMHO, all great marriages have that movie-quote vibe going.


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## CharlieParker

happiness27 said:


> No one should do something they don't want to do and if that's a deal breaker for their partner to continue the relationship, then the dissatisfied partner has a decision to make...leave or STFU and look for the positive things in their sex life.


Spot on. That stands whether she did it with Bob or with me years ago, today matters. 

Tangent: How often am I allowed to bring up a “forbidden” act? Respectfully and non pressuring, of course. Tastes change, today she is thankful I didn’t fully drop it on a certain thing she hated but is now a staple.


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## bluelily

I did something for ex that I had refused to do for H because it was NOT good at all and I just wanted to try. H eventually got it, and guess what ? Still not good, he never pushed to do that again. He just wanted to make sure that he did everything that I did with other. It's an ego thing I guess


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## 269370

happiness27 said:


> IMHO, all great marriages have that movie-quote vibe going.



Agreed. Our quotes are mostly from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre; especially if it’s that time of the month.


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## 269370

bluelily said:


> I did something for ex that I had refused to do for H because it was NOT good at all and I just wanted to try. H eventually got it, and guess what ? Still not good, he never pushed to do that again. He just wanted to make sure that he did everything that I did with other. It's an ego thing I guess



Funny. Why then not do the equivalent opposite? ask wife to do everything with others that she did with you? 
Sharing is caring as my two year old would say. 


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## 269370

happiness27 said:


> If I was married to someone who pouted over not getting a BJ or anal, I would dump him.



What if he didn’t pout over it? What if he simply requested it in a confident and reasonable manner? “I love the sweet sound of your voice but why don’t you put your lips where they belong?” 

It’s again a complaint about the form of the request. No women seem to comment as to the nature of the request: if a husband really loves BJs and you hate giving them, what’s the correct way to proceed? Is the husband wrong for wanting it or is the wife wrong for not giving it? Is it a dead end? Why do feet smell and noses run? What’s for dinner tonight?



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## cashcratebob

Buddy400 said:


> Yes. As long as I knew about the "wild phase" beforehand.
> 
> For the record, this is/was the situation with my wife, although I'm not aware of any particular act she did with others but not with me.
> 
> There is one situation which would bother me (I'm not going to list it because my wife can read my posts here, although she rarely does).
> 
> Let's say it's swallowing (which it isn't and, no, it's not anal either).
> 
> In one of out first sexual encounters, she told me that she didn't like doing something (something that I would like but can live without). Therefore, of course, I never tried it and will not (who wants to make their wife do something she doesn't want to do?). It would be at worst something she didn't like. Nothing painful. Nothing humiliating. Nothing dangerous.
> 
> I'm assuming that she never did this with anyone else or did it once (which would be how she discovered that she didn't like it).
> 
> Now, I could find out (I hope I don't) that she did this multiple times with someone even though she didn't like it. Why might that be? Well, perhaps he knew that she didn't like it but he liked it and so he did it anyway and she just went along in order to make him happy.
> 
> I can see that she would appreciate a man who gave her happiness more weight than his own and that is probably one of the things she likes so much about me.
> 
> But, on the other hand, it would be hard to avoid feeling like a bit of a chump if she went out of her way to give the guy who didn't care about her happiness something that I don't get to do because I'm a good guy. She would have cared about the "bad" guy enough to discomfort herself a bit but wouldn't do the same for me (the man she is madly in love with). *Or, and I really don't want to consider this (and there's no reason I should as she's often told me I'm the best lover she's ever had), she was driven to a level of passion with some other guy that was sufficient to overcome the "ick" factor.
> *
> I wouldn't do anything about it. I wouldn't demand that she now do it for me. But I wouldn't feel good about it either.
> 
> I don't bring it up with her because it's not important enough to risk damaging the relationship. But, that's the sort of thing I could imagine being a problem.



I think you are hitting the hypothetical nail on the head...


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## Middle of Everything

I shouldnthave said:


> Haha! Well.... Now I am curious, ya don't "blow" while going down on a guy, so why the heck are they called blow jobs?!
> 
> Me? I looove giving my husband blow jobs, few things will get me more hot and bothered then giving a sloppy BJ.
> 
> But I am not into swallowing at all, and like you mentioned, it has nothing to do with my husband, or me not wanting to pleasure him, and everything with the fact it makes me want to vomit... It HAS made me vomit when I have tried to force myself to get over it. I wish I didn't have this adversion, I have tried for many years to get over it, and at this point I am over trying any more.
> 
> So, my husband, being enlightened like you are, doesn't want me to try to make myself swallow. I can take it on my chin, face, even lips (and of course breasts, butt etc are a go), I just can't take a mouth full, and really can't swallow.
> 
> Sex, for us, is about giving pleasure. If an act brings one of us disgust or displeasure, it's not something we do.


IMO threads like this wouldnt exist if sexual partners had your attitude and "sex work ethic". 

-you love giving BJs
-you will take it on your chin, face, even lips, breasts, butt, etc etc
-you TRIED for many YEARS to get over swallowing

All three indicate a fabulous, unselfish, generous, determined, enthusiastic lover. 

For many people (men and women) they might get imo child-like respones of "because" or "i dont know" when asked why something is off the table. I think THAT is where problems can arise. Again giving benefit of the doubt here but I dont think most would get worked up being in your H's situation with swallowing being off the table. 

As a real life example of how not to handle this very topic vs how you did, my wife. Even though we had been married a number of years always mouth completely away at end of rare BJ. Asked if she could let me cum in her mouth. "Eh, I let a guy do that once before and eww, yuck". We discussed more eventually through mostly my initiative but that was going to be her response she would stick with after years of marriage to her husband. 

So yeah i hope you can see that you are quite the lady in this regard


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## samyeagar

Buddy400 said:


> Yes. As long as I knew about the "wild phase" beforehand.
> 
> For the record, this is/was the situation with my wife, although I'm not aware of any particular act she did with others but not with me.
> 
> There is one situation which would bother me (I'm not going to list it because my wife can read my posts here, although she rarely does).
> 
> Let's say it's swallowing (which it isn't and, no, it's not anal either).
> 
> In one of out first sexual encounters, she told me that she didn't like doing something (something that I would like but can live without). Therefore, of course, I never tried it and will not (who wants to make their wife do something she doesn't want to do?). It would be at worst something she didn't like. Nothing painful. Nothing humiliating. Nothing dangerous.
> 
> I'm assuming that she never did this with anyone else or did it once (which would be how she discovered that she didn't like it).
> 
> Now, I could find out (I hope I don't) that she did this multiple times with someone even though she didn't like it. Why might that be? Well, perhaps he knew that she didn't like it but he liked it and so he did it anyway and she just went along in order to make him happy.
> 
> I can see that she would appreciate a man who gave her happiness more weight than his own and that is probably one of the things she likes so much about me.
> 
> *But, on the other hand, it would be hard to avoid feeling like a bit of a chump if she went out of her way to give the guy who didn't care about her happiness something that I don't get to do because I'm a good guy. She would have cared about the "bad" guy enough to discomfort herself a bit but wouldn't do the same for me (the man she is madly in love with). Or, and I really don't want to consider this (and there's no reason I should as she's often told me I'm the best lover she's ever had), she was driven to a level of passion with some other guy that was sufficient to overcome the "ick" factor.*
> 
> I wouldn't do anything about it. I wouldn't demand that she now do it for me. But I wouldn't feel good about it either.
> 
> I don't bring it up with her because it's not important enough to risk damaging the relationship. But, that's the sort of thing I could imagine being a problem.


This is pretty much the exact line of thinking that my wife expressed in the very non-hypothetical situation we had with the sex toys.


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## 269370

Middle of Everything said:


> For many people (men and women) they might get imo child-like respones of "because" or "i dont know" when asked why something is off the table. I think THAT is where problems can arise.



Actually what also sometimes happens when the woman is simply not interested or not in the mood doing something is (and my wife has also done this on occasion and more importantly ADMITTED that that’s what she was doing later on): she will find a reason to get pissed off about something so that she has a (for her) legitimate excuse not to do it; it could be ‘I don’t like the way you are asking’, ‘you are so annoying’, ‘I hate it how you only see a hole in me’ or pick a fight about something else unrelated and storm off upstairs to watch some stupid show instead.

Where there is no will, there is no way and thankfully this does not happen anymore. Something went off in her brain where she seems to feel some sort of compassion in that area and we rarely have this issue anymore. If she falls asleep or is really too exhausted but knows that i really want it, she will usually ‘catch up’ first thing in the morning.



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## Holdingontoit

sokillme said:


> OK so the question was directed to the women of this thread. I am actually curious too, what should the guy do if his wife is basically just doing missionary but was not that way with other partners? We get that he shouldn't be whiny but what should he do.


File for divorce.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> File for divorce.



Divorce is not the most attractive option financially for a guy in many cases, you should be familiar with it. Plus what if there are kids?
Sign up for TAM is probably a more realistic advice 


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## Holdingontoit

happiness27 said:


> I am having a hard time stomaching that so many men feel they are deprived sexually if they don't have a partner who will swallow their cum or be allowed to penetrate their female partner anally.


Just so we are clear, that is not the only type of thing where this issue can occur. Not everything that the guy wants is inherently degrading.

My wife once admitted during MC that she used to go on vacations with guys and spend all day in a hotel room in bed, having sex and ordering room service. Whereas we had several vacations where I took her to a fancy resort hotel or on a cruise and we didn't have sex the entire week. I wasn't asking for anything degrading. I was just asking for manual (me doing her), oral (me doing her) or PIV (her doing me - I get that she gets nothing out of PIV with me).

So it doesn't have to be anal or swallowing. It could be sex in a car or sex outdoors or sex in some room in their house besides the bedroom. Sheesh. Why do people jump to anal and swallowing?


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## Married but Happy

When I got into my current relationship, I had enough sexual experience to know what I liked and needed, and what I didn't. Since I was getting everything I liked, it didn't matter what she may have done with someone else in the past. 

Perhaps if I'd been sexually inexperienced, I might not have known I would like something, and would at least like an opportunity to find out. I guess that can happen if you meet someone you think is awesome, marry them, and then discover things you'd like to try - but she won't, having either tried them and not liked them, or is not willing to do them with you for some reason. Fair enough. That would be a disappointment, of course, but only the person in that scenario can decide if it's a deal-breaker for them and the relationship.

IMO, it would be far more troubling if a spouse did something I really liked routinely while dating, but refused it after marriage. That is bait and switch, and for that I'd have no tolerance.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> OK so the question was directed to the women of this thread. I am actually curious too, what should the guy do if his wife is basically just doing missionary but was not that way with other partners? We get that he shouldn't be whiny but what should he do.



Not so much what the guy should do, but if other women feel that the woman should do or change anything, if anything.

The guy can’t really do anything, that’s pretty much established. The person with the need is the one without control. And he can’t force her do something she doesn’t want to do. Can he make her WANT to do something? 
The ‘you did is with Bob why not with me?’ is just a clumsy attempt at it.
(In my reading of it, there is no threat and there is no word ‘unless’ in this question to male it sound like an ultimatum). Some women have rephrased it throughout the thread but that’s not the original question.)


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Divorce is not the most attractive option financially for a guy in many cases, you should be familiar with it. Plus what if there are kids?


As someone who got just about the best possible outcome from "staying for the kids" - both kids attended flagship state universities, one graduated and working for an engineering company, the other a rising senior and working for a high tech company, they get along well with each other and with us - I would still say to divorce immediately on discovering this. If you don't have the stones to divorce immediately, if you don't have the confidence that you will earn the money back once you are free from the anchor weighing you down, then you probably aren't going to be happy with yourself years later.



> Sign up for TAM is probably a more realistic advice


Yes, absolutely. Sign up for TAM so I can convince you to file for divorce! :surprise::wink2: >


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## sokillme

No one wants to say it but I will (seems to be my job on here), some husbands need to just accept that their wives are lazy and selfish when it comes to sex. I said some not all, some wives may have legitimate reasons. You just don't do it for her. Once you do that you can decided whether you accept that life of not.


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## sokillme

Holdingontoit said:


> Just so we are clear, that is not the only type of thing where this issue can occur. Not everything that the guy wants is inherently degrading.
> 
> My wife once admitted during MC that she used to go on vacations with guys and spend all day in a hotel room in bed, having sex and ordering room service. Whereas we had several vacations where I took her to a fancy resort hotel or on a cruise and we didn't have sex the entire week. I wasn't asking for anything degrading. I was just asking for manual (me doing her), oral (me doing her) or PIV (her doing me - I get that she gets nothing out of PIV with me).
> 
> So it doesn't have to be anal or swallowing. It could be sex in a car or sex outdoors or sex in some room in their house besides the bedroom. Sheesh. Why do people jump to anal and swallowing?


Why would you put up with that? Is she sick or something? Are you grossly out of shape? Are you staying only financial reasons? Did you at least have a serious talk about divorcing?


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> As someone who got just about the best possible outcome from "staying for the kids" - both kids attended flagship state universities, one graduated and working for an engineering company, the other a rising senior and working for a high tech company, they get along well with each other and with us - I would still say to divorce immediately on discovering this. If you don't have the stones to divorce immediately, if you don't have the confidence that you will earn the money back once you are free from the anchor weighing you down, then you probably aren't going to be happy with yourself years later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, absolutely. Sign up for TAM so I can convince you to file for divorce! :surprise::wink2: >



What about never getting married in the first place? (Officially). My sister’s BF is planning to never get married. I feel bad for my sister but understand where he’s coming from.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> What about never getting married in the first place? (Officially). My sister’s BF is planning to never get married. I feel bad for my sister but understand where he’s coming from.


Oh, I am totally in favor of anyone with a decent job (male or female) never getting married. Or never getting married without a pre-nup.

And I think that SAHP is the best way to raise kids, but I think one person being a SAHP makes divorce (or breaking up if the couple never got married) inherently unfair. Sometimes in favor of the SAHP. Sometimes in favor of the parent who works outside the home. But once one stays home to tend the kids, there is no "fair".

How does your sister support herself? Does she plan to continue doing the same thing after marriage and kids?


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## Cletus

Any man who gets as an answer to the question "why with him, not me" that amounts to "I tried it in the past with someone else and hated every g.d. minute of it" should be satisfied with the answer. People should be allowed to grow, explore their preferences, and not pay a penalty for not being willing to renegotiate every sexual decision with every new lover. 

I tried Brussels sprouts long before I met my wife. I have no interest in trying them again, and I don't care WHAT she's wearing when she serves them.


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## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Any man who gets as an answer to the question "why with him, not me" that amounts to "I tried it in the past with someone else and hated every g.d. minute of it" should be satisfied with the answer. People should be allowed to grow, explore their preferences, and not pay a penalty for not being willing to renegotiate every sexual decision with every new lover.
> 
> I tried Brussels sprouts long before I met my wife. I have no interest in trying them again, and I don't care WHAT she's wearing when she serves them.


From what I gather, the guys who have a problem with this feel that “I hated every minute of it” is a “valid answer” but “I just don’t want to” is not.

Apparently “I just don’t want to” means “I was hot for Bob but not you” and this is something they can’t get over. Of course, we are still talking about things that have not happened to anyone on this thread and just their imaginations of how they would feel and what the hypothetical woman meant.


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## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> Apparently “I just don’t want to” means “I was hot for Bob but not you” and this is something they can’t get over. Of course, we are still talking about things that have not happened to anyone on this thread and just their imaginations of how they would feel and what the hypothetical woman meant.


Every guy wants to be the best she's every had. Every guy wants to be the longest she's ever struggled to accept. Every guy wants to be the first one to give her an orgasm from PIV. Or the most multiples. Or whatever.

I'm not a big fan of male ego in the bedroom. Or elsewhere much, for that matter. Spend more time trying to please your partner and less time trying to soothe your hurt feelings. You ain't the biggest stud out there. Get over yourself.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> From what I gather, the guys who have a problem with this feel that “I hated every minute of it” is a “valid answer” but “I just don’t want to” is not.
> 
> Apparently “I just don’t want to” means “I was hot for Bob but not you” and this is something they can’t get over. Of course, we are still talking about things that have not happened to anyone on this thread and just their imaginations of how they would feel and what the hypothetical woman meant.


Except for the very non-hypothetical situation with my wife and the sex toys. "I just don't want to" was not even close to a good enough answer. To my wife, it did indeed suggest I was hotter for my ex-wife than I was for her.

"I just don't want to", "I just don't feel like it" are completely evasive answers that people use all the time in all kinds of different situations where a person doesn't want to reveal the real answer, or let their real feeling be known, for various reasons....embarrassment, trust issues, sparing the other persons feelings


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## CharlieParker

Cletus said:


> I tried Brussels sprouts long before I met my wife. I have no interest in trying them again, and I don't care WHAT she's wearing when she serves them.


That would be grounds for divorce in my marriage. 



Faithful Wife said:


> From what I gather, the guys who have a problem with this feel that “I hated every minute of it” is a “valid answer” but “I just don’t want to” is not.
> 
> Apparently “I just don’t want to” means “I was hot for Bob but not you” and this is something they can’t get over. Of course, we are still talking about things that have not happened to anyone on this thread and just their imaginations of how they would feel and what the hypothetical woman meant.


I've gotten I just don't want to, when she did it for Bob she was younger. Meh, I moved on, OK it helped that it was something that sounded better in theory than likely is in practice.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Except for the very non-hypothetical situation with my wife and the sex toys. "I just don't want to" was not even close to a good enough answer. To my wife, it did indeed suggest I was hotter for my ex-wife than I was for her.
> 
> "I just don't want to", "I just don't feel like it" are completely evasive answers that people use all the time in all kinds of different situations where a person doesn't want to reveal the real answer, or let their real feeling be known, for various reasons....embarrassment, trust issues, sparing the other persons feelings


However, “I just don’t want to” can also be a valid reason and answer. It wasn’t for your wife. And that’s ok, too. It is up to you, not us, if you felt her reaction was justified. You also did have specific reasons. If you just didn’t want to for no reason you had in the past, you may have felt different and she may have not accepted your answer and been resentful and mad about it forever.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> However, “I just don’t want to” can also be a valid reason and answer. It wasn’t for your wife. And that’s ok, too. It is up to you, not us, if you felt her reaction was justified. You also did have specific reasons. If you just didn’t want to for no reason you had in the past, you may have felt different and she may have not accepted your answer and been resentful and mad about it forever.


It can be a valid answer for sure. In many cases, usually less important situations such as not wanting to go somewhere for dinner, it is readily accepted. For things that are important to someone, it may be sufficient to stifle or shut down the discussion in the short term, but it is rarely going to be sufficient to actually settle things and resolve the issue.


----------



## 269370

Sure, ‘I just don’t want to’ can be perfectly fine answer for some, not for others. If your wife just want to do missionary with you once a month and for anything else you ask, you get the ‘I just don’t want to’, it’s up to you what you decide to do with this information. Some people are fine with it, some people divorce, some people go and get it somewhere else.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> I’m curious how this works: do women just say this without being prompted? (Why?) or do men ask them this question? (And then what choice do they have but to say whatever the man wants to hear?)


In my case, unprompted, usually in the afterglow. 

Perhaps just to make me feel good.

And, yes, what else would she say?


----------



## Buddy400

happiness27 said:


> I am having a hard time stomaching that so many men feel they are deprived sexually if they don't have a partner who will swallow their cum or be allowed to penetrate their female partner anally.


Well..... no, this thread is NOT about men feeling deprived sexually if their partner does this or that.

It's about men's feelings if their spouse did these acts (or others) for previous partners yet not for them, these acts were either done willingly and no explanation beyond "I was a different person then" was given.

On your point, if you only orgasmed via oral and your partner didn't do that, would you feel sexually deprived?


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It can be a valid answer for sure. In many cases, usually less important situations such as not wanting to go somewhere for dinner, it is readily accepted. For things that are important to someone, it may be sufficient to stifle or shut down the discussion in the short term, but it is rarely going to be sufficient to actually settle things and resolve the issue.


Sorry but decisions about what one wants to do with their body is not analogous to where they want to have dinner. It may be for some people (apparently men, since so many want to use analogies?) but there are no analogies. 

In the same way, women can’t seem to make an analogy that works, because to many of the men in this thread, there is simply nothing that would stop them from wanting to try some kind of sex. 

I do think that men who have been assaulted, molested or sexually abused understand better why it is always important that the individual be the only one who gets to decide what happens to their own body.

No means no, and it also means there is only further discussion about it if the person saying no chooses to have the discussion. 

Granted...if a man was experiencing a no in general, I would still encourage him to leave if he isn’t having a satisfactory sex life. Just because I fully support her decision to say no for any reason or no reason, I also support people having good sexual relationships so if her decisions prevent him from being fulfilled, he should exit for greener pastures.

ETA: I think there’s an unspoken question here for the men who are bothered by this. That question being “if she was hotter for Bob or more in love with him or not into me, how do I make her change?” And so this becomes like every other thread and question, to which the answer always depends on the players involved. That’s why doing this hypothetically is basically impossible.

Short answer is “you can’t”.

Long answer is “spend 15 years trying (we will supply you with every available suggestion and option) and then end up divorced anyway” or “spend 15 years trying and end up coming to acceptance of the way things are”.


----------



## personofinterest

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry but decisions about what one wants to do with their body is not analogous to where they want to have dinner. It may be for some people (apparently men, since so many want to use analogies?) but there are no analogies.
> 
> In the same way, women can’t seem to make an analogy that works, because to many of the men in this thread, there is simply nothing that would stop them from wanting to try some kind of sex.
> 
> I do think that men who have been assaulted, molested or sexually abused understand better why it is always important that the individual be the only one who gets to decide what happens to their own body.
> 
> No means no, and it also means there is only further discussion about it if the person saying no chooses to have the discussion.
> 
> Granted...if a man was experiencing a no in general, I would still encourage him to leave if he isn’t having a satisfactory sex life. Just because I fully support her decision to say no for any reason or no reason, I also support people having good sexual relationships so if her decisions prevent him from being fulfilled, he should exit for greener pastures.


And that is the point. Then men on this thread with black and white thinking have painted women into an impossible corner. I must not love you if I say no, and if my reason for no has not been vetted, then I can't say no.

There is also this false dichotomy that a woman will either do everything a man wants, or she's a once a month starfish. Like there is no continuum.

This is the way debates go when one side cannot just admit that some of their thinking is faulty. The analogies get weirder and weirder, the hypotheticals grow, and everything becomes more either/or.

My speech/debate teacher would be giving some really bad grades.


----------



## Buddy400

Cletus said:


> Any man who gets as an answer to the question "why with him, not me" that amounts to "I tried it in the past with someone else and hated every g.d. minute of it" should be satisfied with the answer.


And I think almost all (and everyone here) would be satisfied with that answer.

Welcome to the Strawman making club


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry but decisions about what one wants to do with their body is not analogous to where they want to have dinner. It may be for some people (apparently men, since so many want to use analogies?) but there are no analogies.
> 
> In the same way, women can’t seem to make an analogy that works, because to many of the men in this thread, there is simply nothing that would stop them from wanting to try some kind of sex.
> 
> I do think that men who have been assaulted, molested or sexually abused understand better why it is always important that the individual be the only one who gets to decide what happens to their own body.
> 
> No means no, and it also means there is only further discussion about it if the person saying no chooses to have the discussion.
> 
> Granted...if a man was experiencing a no in general, I would still encourage him to leave if he isn’t having a satisfactory sex life. Just because I fully support her decision to say no for any reason or no reason, I also support people having good sexual relationships so if her decisions prevent him from being fulfilled, he should exit for greener pastures.


I gave an example of a situation where "I don't feel like it" may be a sufficient answer for most people, and not lead to any further dwelling. I did not make an analogy.

An analogy would have been where say a healthy, young woman really wants to have a baby, and her husband says "I don't feel like it." It's doubtful that would be sufficient for most people with no further consideration. That may not necessarily lead to to fights, conflict, badgering, demands, or what have you, but it would certainly cause reevaluation of, and change the tenor and dynamic of the relationship.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> I gave an example of a situation where "I don't feel like it" may be a sufficient answer for most people, and not lead to any further dwelling. I did not make an analogy.
> 
> An analogy would have been where say a healthy, young woman really wants to have a baby, and her husband says "I don't feel like it." It's doubtful that would be sufficient for most people with no further consideration. That may not necessarily lead to to fights, conflict, badgering, demands, or what have you, but it would certainly cause reevaluation of, and change the tenor and dynamic of the relationship.



Because the desire to be a mother and "I want anal" are EXACTLY the same

I'll be TMI and say my hubby enjoys that particular act (and I don't mind it either). But he'ed never presume to say him getting anal is the same as me being a mom.

Case in point


----------



## Cletus

Buddy400 said:


> And I think almost all (and everyone here) would be satisfied with that answer.
> 
> Welcome to the Strawman making club


Ok, so I used the most extreme version of that sentiment possible.

I stand by the position if the answer is as milquetoast as "I tried it before and I no longer want to do it". For whatever reason. 

Presumably your partner has weighed the balance between wanting to please you and not wanting to perform a sex act, and you lost. Unless that's her reaction to just about everything you ever suggest, living with that answer and getting on with your life seems to me the sanest course.


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> Because the desire to be a mother and "I want anal" are EXACTLY the same


They're not the same? I thought anal sex was how we made politicians <rimshot>.


----------



## Middle of Everything

personofinterest said:


> Because the desire to be a mother and "I want anal" are EXACTLY the same
> 
> I'll be TMI and say my hubby enjoys that particular act (and I don't mind it either). But he'ed never presume to say him getting anal is the same as me being a mom.
> 
> Case in point


Samy is a good guy. In no way did he say that.

Ridiculous.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I actually have a hard time understanding both sides of this whenever its a topic. Perhaps my thought process on it is too simple. I mean...we do get a chance to date a person before we marry them. I talk about sex with people I have dated almost immediately once that door is opened, and its fairly detailed but still a fun flirty convo. I don't need to to know who you did what with, nor do I care about their number of partners or anything like that (although more actually is better if sex is really important to you), but I certainly want to find out what things they have done and enjoy, and what things they have tried and didn't like, and also things they want to try. There are things all of us have tried that we didn't like, there are also things we used to like that we no longer care for. 

I guess I don't understand how people find themselves here. I understand being angry about bait and switch, like no BJs after getting married or something, but I don't understand moving forward with someone when you know you aren't ever going to get their best sexual self. Too many other people that you could be with rather than settling and complaining about it later.

One last thing, why is anal such a big deal for people. That seems to be the main issue. Anal with a previous boyfriend or guy they had an affair with. Having been "surprised" by women that try and stick a finger up there when giving a BJ (ladies...please ask if we're into that first) I can't say I would want anything up there. So...I get it...I have had women tell me everything is on the table but that and I never cared...with that said my current girlfriend loves it, in fact it was a deal breaker for her if its something that I wasn't ok with. But it doesn't matter to me if its on the table or not, provided BJs and PIV stay on the menu consistently during the relationship.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> However, “I just don’t want to” can also be a valid reason and answer. It wasn’t for your wife. And that’s ok, too. It is up to you, not us, if you felt her reaction was justified. You also did have specific reasons. If you just didn’t want to for no reason you had in the past, you may have felt different and she may have not accepted your answer and been resentful and mad about it forever.


To be clear, no one is saying that someone can't just say "I just don't want to" or "I just don't feel like it".

Of course, anyone can say anything they want, so it's not "invalid".

It is also valid, on the other party's part, to not find that answer acceptable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> To be clear, no one is saying that someone can't just say "I just don't want to" or "I just don't feel like it".
> 
> Of course, anyone can say anything they want, so it's not "invalid".
> 
> It is also valid, on the other party's part, to not find that answer acceptable.


Yes and as I just said above, his recourse is to leave the relationship. Just as it is her recourse to leave the relationship if she feels he is a whiny jerk for not accepting “I don’t want to”.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Because the desire to be a mother and "I want anal" are EXACTLY the same
> 
> I'll be TMI and say my hubby enjoys that particular act (and I don't mind it either). But he'ed never presume to say him getting anal is the same as me being a mom.
> 
> Case in point


Well spotted!

No actually, not, and I know you are better than this. There was no comparison or mention, or even allusion to anal. The comparison was to a situation where "I don't want to" may not be a sufficient answer to resolve an issue.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry but decisions about what one wants to do with their body is not analogous to where they want to have dinner. It may be for some people (apparently men, since so many want to use analogies?) but there are no analogies.


As I noted earlier, this is the answer: Women say sex is different. Men don't see why it should be and often feel that it's mighty convenient that the rules that apply to everything else don't apply to the one thing they (usually) desire the most.

That's the gender difference here. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Granted...if a man was experiencing a no in general, I would still encourage him to leave if he isn’t having a satisfactory sex life. Just because I fully support her decision to say no for any reason or no reason, I also support people having good sexual relationships so if her decisions prevent him from being fulfilled, he should exit for greener pastures.
> 
> ETA: I think there’s an unspoken question here for the men who are bothered by this. That question being “if she was hotter for Bob or more in love with him or not into me, how do I make her change?” And so this becomes like every other thread and question, to which the answer always depends on the players involved. That’s why doing this hypothetically is basically impossible.
> 
> *Short answer is “you can’t”.*
> 
> Long answer is “spend 15 years trying (we will supply you with every available suggestion and option) and then end up divorced anyway” or “spend 15 years trying and end up coming to acceptance of the way things are”.


The bolded is pretty much true. 

There's little you can do to make it better. 

You just feel bad.

Which is why I try so hard to avoid being in that position and why I have empathy for those who are in it.


----------



## Buddy400

ReformedHubby said:


> I guess I don't understand how people find themselves here. I understand being angry about bait and switch, like no BJs after getting married or something, but I don't understand moving forward with someone when you know you aren't ever going to get their best sexual self. Too many other people that you could be with rather than settling and complaining about it later.


I think the situation is with the man not being aware that he was getting her "best sexual self" at the time he committed and coming to believe later that he wasn't.



ReformedHubby said:


> Having been "surprised" by women that try and stick a finger up there when giving a BJ (*ladies...please ask if we're into that first*)


I can't agree more with the bolded.

Ladies, ask first!


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Buddy400 said:


> I think the situation is with the man not being aware that he was getting her "best sexual self" at the time he committed and coming to believe later that he wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree more with the bolded.
> 
> Ladies, ask first!


I like to ask them to do it first


----------



## hinterdir

I and my wife were virgins so I don't have this dilemma in our lives. I can imagine it would be very hurtful if it were the case. It depends on what it was but I but it would cause a lot of resentment if a spouse refused to give the spouse what they were willing to give another. I can think of exceptions. If a person had had a threesome in the past with two people they didn't care that much about but now doesn't want to share their mate with someone else (even though the thought of threesomes disgust me and I'd never want one ever). 

I'm curious as what things a spouse could have done before that they would deny their current spouse....other than the example I just listed as an exception.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I just had a thought.

What if that other guy was you?

Which is to say what about a wife who used to do sexual things with YOU that she doesn't want to do any more?

Oral seems to be the most common example. Lots of threads about how he was getting tons of it from her back in the day, but not any more. While guys are understandably disappointed by this, they don't jump to the conclusion that there is some sort of nefarious intent on her part, or that she was more into him then than him now, or that she's lazy, insensitive, cold-hearted, abusive, etc. Let's face it, people evolve, people change, and if we're perfectly honest, we have to acknowledge that for many, dating behavior is not always the same as married behavior. It may cause friction, but it's not evil. 

So if we can accept that our wives have changed while with us, why should we not accept that our wives may have changed from before us to after us?


----------



## Married but Happy

hinterdir said:


> ....other than the example I just listed as an exception.


Hmm. I dunno. This should be an all-or-nothing situation! Now you want to cherry-pick the things she does and doesn't do for you! Once you open that door, she gets to cherry-pick what she wants to do, too. (E.g. Bob asked her to do a threesome with Bill, so Jane did - and anal, too! Now she won't do anal with you, but you ask that she do what she did for others. So she calls Bill and asks him over for a threesome with you, with anal. Now what? LOL)

Either you're okay with what you get, or not. Then you decide if the relationship is still worth it, and if it is, you can't maintain resentment and still have a good relationship.


----------



## Faithful Wife

hinterdir said:


> I and my wife were virgins so I don't have this dilemma in our lives. I can imagine it would be very hurtful if it were the case. It depends on what it was but I but it would cause a lot of resentment if a spouse refused to give the spouse what they were willing to give another. I can think of exceptions. If a person had had a threesome in the past with two people they didn't care that much about but now doesn't want to share their mate with someone else (even though the thought of threesomes disgust me and I'd never want one ever).
> 
> I'm curious as what things a spouse could have done before that they would deny their current spouse....other than the example I just listed as an exception.


See no one actually seems to have this issue in reality, so no one gives any specific details. It’s all hypothetical so there are no actual details.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> See no one actually seems to have this issue in reality, so no one gives any specific details. It’s all hypothetical so there are no actual details.


Except for my wife and I with the sex toys. And her response, feelings, and thought process was very much in line with the premise of, and what many have suggested in this thread.


----------



## ReformedHubby

hinterdir said:


> I and my wife were virgins so I don't have this dilemma in our lives. I can imagine it would be very hurtful if it were the case. It depends on what it was but I but it would cause a lot of resentment if a spouse refused to give the spouse what they were willing to give another. I can think of exceptions. *If a person had had a threesome in the past with two people they didn't care that much about but now doesn't want to share their mate with someone else* (even though the thought of threesomes disgust me and I'd never want one ever).


Totally forgot about threesomes, in addition to anal this one is a big deal too. But I get why a woman wouldn't want to do one with her husband. I was dating a woman once that was all about threesomes, but...she was like we have to do it before I have strong feelings, then one day she looked at me and she was like yeah...its too late, the thought of you with someone else would make me want to fight the other girl. Definitely a window for that sort of thing IMO. Either before you get too attached, or like 20 years later when you both really want a change of pace.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> See no one actually seems to have this issue in reality, so no one gives any specific details. It’s all hypothetical so there are no actual details.
> 
> 
> 
> Except for my wife and I with the sex toys. And her response, feelings, and thought process was very much in line with the premise of, and what many have suggested in this thread.
Click to expand...

Yes and it is the only real example we have seen. So we have no example for the men who have the question. And only one example of if a woman had the question. The post I quoted was a man asking so I’m assuming he wanted examples from the mans perspective not the woman’s.


----------



## Livvie

The more I read of this thread, the more I think past sexual experiences details should not be shared with a new partner.

Discussion about current values, STD/I testing, yes.

Details not so much. The focus should be on what the current couple does together. Not what each did with others in the past.


----------



## samyeagar

Livvie said:


> The more I read of this thread, the more I think past sexual experiences details should not be shared with a new partner.
> 
> Discussion about current values, STD/I testing, yes.
> 
> Details not so much. The focus should be on what the current couple does together. Not what each did with others in the past.


And it has been brought up by several here, including myself, that we neither wanted to know, nor asked for details, yet they still found a way to come out.


----------



## cashcratebob

Faithful Wife said:


> See no one actually seems to have this issue in reality, so no one gives any specific details. It’s all hypothetical so there are no actual details.


Aren't there quite a few stories on TAM where the WS was more sexually adventurous with the AP than spouse? It isn't the exact same thing but I think those situations have some bearing on these discussions and how possible the hypothetical situation is. The timing is all reversed but it is generally the same concept.

Dopamine high with bad @$$ college boyfriend, sexually submissive/adventurous with him, then later finds a good guy to settle down with. But the sex isn't the same because the physiological response in her isn't the same towards him.

It is a horse beaten twice over but I still think it is worth mentioning.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes and it is the only real example we have seen. So we have no example for the men who have the question. And only one example of if a woman had the question. The post I quoted was a man asking so I’m assuming he wanted examples from the mans perspective not the woman’s.


True, it is not from a mans perspective, but I think some value can be taken from the fact that these kinds of feelings and this line of thinking is not limited to whiny, demanding men.


----------



## samyeagar

cashcratebob said:


> Aren't there quite a few stories on TAM where the WS was more sexually adventurous with the AP than spouse? It isn't the exact same thing but I think those situations have some bearing on these discussions and how possible the hypothetical situation is. The timing is all reversed but it is generally the same concept.
> 
> Dopamine high with bad @$$ college boyfriend, sexually submissive/adventurous with him, then later finds a good guy to settle down with. But the sex isn't the same because the physiological response in her isn't the same towards him.
> 
> It is a horse beaten twice over but I still think it is worth mentioning.


What does the other person have to bring this out in you that I don't?


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and it is the only real example we have seen. So we have no example for the men who have the question. And only one example of if a woman had the question. The post I quoted was a man asking so I’m assuming he wanted examples from the mans perspective not the woman’s.
> 
> 
> 
> True, it is not from a mans perspective, but I think some value can be taken from the fact that these kinds of feelings and this line of thinking is not limited to whiny, demanding men.
Click to expand...

I’d love to hear a man give a specific example.

As for your sitch, it matches what other men have said about if there was an “acceptable” reason, they would accept it. So like @Buddy400 specifically is saying that’s a straw man because men here would be ok with your answers if they were in your wife’s position.


----------



## Faithful Wife

cashcratebob said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> See no one actually seems to have this issue in reality, so no one gives any specific details. It’s all hypothetical so there are no actual details.
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't there quite a few stories on TAM where the WS was more sexually adventurous with the AP than spouse? It isn't the exact same thing but I think those situations have some bearing on these discussions and how possible the hypothetical situation is. The timing is all reversed but it is generally the same concept.
> 
> Dopamine high with bad @$$ college boyfriend, sexually submissive/adventurous with him, then later finds a good guy to settle down with. But the sex isn't the same because the physiological response in her isn't the same towards him.
> 
> It is a horse beaten twice over but I still think it is worth mentioning.
Click to expand...

I don’t think cheating is the same as what someone has done in the past before you even knew them. Sorry this analogy doesn’t work.

However, as a separate scenario, of course the BS should be hurt or devastated by their WS screwing someone else! And of course if the WS had wild monkey sex with their AP the BS will likely never get over it. (Though I should point out that some can. Or maybe they only can if it wasn’t wild monkey sex? Or if they just weren’t that into sex themselves anyway?)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Livvie said:


> The more I read of this thread, the more I think past sexual experiences details should not be shared with a new partner.
> 
> Discussion about current values, STD/I testing, yes.
> 
> Details not so much. The focus should be on what the current couple does together. Not what each did with others in the past.


Indeed. The only relevant inputs are "who are you now and who do you intend to be going forward." 

I think it's also worth adding that, if you are the aggrieved party, does the "why" of you not getting what you want really matter?

Put it this way. 
You want BJs
She doesn't want to give BJs.
Does it really matter if whe gave some other buy BJs before she met you? Either way you're not getting your BJs so either way, you're going to feel slighted. Why go pain shopping for additional reasons to feel slighted? Either accept the package as is, or move on. Whether or not she did it in the past should have no bearing on that decision.


----------



## Livvie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The more I read of this thread, the more I think past sexual experiences details should not be shared with a new partner.
> 
> Discussion about current values, STD/I testing, yes.
> 
> Details not so much. The focus should be on what the current couple does together. Not what each did with others in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. The only relevant inputs are "who are you now and who do you intend to be going forward."
> 
> I think it's also worth adding that, if you are the aggrieved party, does the "why" of you not getting what you want really matter?
> 
> Put it this way.
> You want BJs
> She doesn't want to give BJs.
> Does it really matter if whe gave some other buy BJs before she met you? Either way you're not getting your BJs so either way, you're going to feel slighted. Why go pain shopping for additional reasons to feel slighted? Either accept the package as is, or move on. Whether or not she did it in the past should have no bearing on that decision.
Click to expand...

Exactly!!! Accept the package as is, or don't marry her! If a man accepts not "getting" (as many seem to term it) sex act ABC and married her anyway, then he should still accept her if later on he learned of a sex act she did in the past she doesn't do with him.

Otherwise isn't that a bait and switch acceptance??????????


----------



## CharlieParker

Faithful Wife said:


> I’d love to hear a man give a specific example.


It's all a bit fuzzy as this was over 20 years ago but IIRC it wasn't a big deal.

My wife told me (I don't remember the context) that she went down on guy while he was driving a car. When on a less traveled highway I suggested I'd be available for that she said no, the car wasn't physically suited for that. Well, OK, I guess, but in that case a handy would certainly be dandy, she wanted no part of that. I wasn't happy but didn't dwell on it. 

I had to tease her recently when the Road Head song came out. (Not every time, just once.) And then it was about she won't do it, and not that she did it with somebody else and not me (I hadn't even thought of that until this thread explicitly mentioned it).


----------



## samyeagar

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed. The only relevant inputs are "who are you now and who do you intend to be going forward."
> 
> I think it's also worth adding that, if you are the aggrieved party, does the "why" of you not getting what you want really matter?
> 
> Put it this way.
> You want BJs
> She doesn't want to give BJs.
> Does it really matter if whe gave some other buy BJs before she met you? Either way you're not getting your BJs so either way, you're going to feel slighted. Why go pain shopping for additional reasons to feel slighted? Either accept the package as is, or move on. Whether or not she did it in the past should have no bearing on that decision.


I love getting bj's, but certainly something I can certainly live without. However...

There is a big difference between "I don't really like giving them to anyone." and "I don't really like giving them to you." The first says something about her. The second says something about me. The first, I could happily live with. The second, I would end the relationship.


----------



## Middle of Everything

CharlieParker said:


> It's all a bit fuzzy as this was over 20 years ago but IIRC it wasn't a big deal.
> 
> My wife told me (I don't remember the context) that she went down on guy while he was driving a car. When on a less traveled highway I suggested I'd be available for that she said no, the car wasn't physically suited for that. Well, OK, I guess, but in that case a handy would certainly be dandy, she wanted no part of that. I wasn't happy but didn't dwell on it.
> 
> I had to tease her recently when the Road Head song came out. (Not every time, just once.) And then it was about she won't do it, and not that she did it with somebody else and not me (I hadn't even thought of that until this thread explicitly mentioned it).


Not something Ive ever even thought about asking for. I would wreck that ****er for sure. :grin2:

OMG........Oh yeah........BAM!!


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> I’d love to hear a man give a specific example.
> 
> As for your sitch, it matches what other men have said about if there was an “acceptable” reason, they would accept it. So like @Buddy400 specifically is saying that’s a straw man because men here would be ok with your answers if they were in your wife’s position.


The closest I can come is my wife and oral sex. She has never given it to anyone, and never will. She has received it once, from a guy long before I met her. She has never and will never allow me to even try.

I get the impression that she didn't like it, which falls under the "acceptable excuse" umbrella, but she won't really go into detail and I haven't pressed too hard. I could get all wrapped around the axle - he was definitely physically hotter than I am - but that wouldn't serve any purpose. It will never be a part of our sex life, no matter how hard I beat her or myself up about it.


----------



## samyeagar

Cletus said:


> The closest I can come is my wife and oral sex. She has never given it to anyone, and never will. She has received it once, from a guy long before I met her. She has never and will never allow me to even try.
> 
> I get the impression that she didn't like it, which falls under the "acceptable excuse" umbrella, but she won't really go into detail and I haven't pressed too hard. I could get all wrapped around the axle - he was definitely physically hotter than I am - but that wouldn't serve any purpose. It will never be a part of our sex life, no matter how hard I beat her or myself up about it.


I think one of the difficulties many are having with this thread is the fact that many can't really directly and personally relate, and some people struggle with conceptual ideas as opposed to actual things they have experienced.

I also think most of the participants in this thread either have very satisfactory sex lives, or have made peace with the less than satisfactory one they have, thus this is not likely to be an issue.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’d love to hear a man give a specific example.
> 
> As for your sitch, it matches what other men have said about if there was an “acceptable” reason, they would accept it. So like @Buddy400 specifically is saying that’s a straw man because men here would be ok with your answers if they were in your wife’s position.
> 
> 
> 
> The closest I can come is my wife and oral sex. She has never given it to anyone, and never will. She has received it once, from a guy long before I met her. She has never and will never allow me to even try.
> 
> I get the impression that she didn't like it, which falls under the "acceptable excuse" umbrella, but she won't really go into detail and I haven't pressed too hard. I could get all wrapped around the axle - he was definitely physically hotter than I am - but that wouldn't serve any purpose. It will never be a part of our sex life, no matter how hard I beat her or myself up about it.
Click to expand...

Right. I think her real “reason” is some kind of long ago created internal aversion.

But deeply held long term aversions are very hard to get rid of, and basically the only way to get rid of them is to expose yourself to what you are averse to over and over.

Which is so not sexy to the partner (oh great, you will fight off your aversion to this activity while we do it, makes me feel so wanted). So accepting what is good (which in your case sounds like a lot) seems the reasonable route.

I’m guessing that if there was zero sex with your wife, you would eventually have divorced. You have quite a lot more than zero, and what you are missing really isn’t necessary for intimacy or orgasms or bonding or passion.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

samyeagar said:


> I love getting bj's, but certainly something I can certainly live without. However...
> 
> There is a big difference between "I don't really like giving them to anyone." and "I don't really like giving them to you." The first says something about her. The second says something about me. The first, I could happily live with. The second, I would end the relationship.


I don't think the second is generally the case though: far more likely is either
1: although I did it in the past, I didn't like it then and now I have enough of a voice to say no
Or
2. Although I did it in the past and didn't mind, I don't like it now... with anyone

If she truly still likes it but not with you, then yes, you've most definitely got a serious problem. But I don't think that is the scenario under discussion in this thread. That's one for the infidelity forum.


----------



## samyeagar

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't think the second is generally the case though: far more likely is either
> 1: although I did it in the past, I didn't like it then and now I have enough of a voice to say no
> Or
> 2. Although I did it in the past and didn't mind, I don't like it now... with anyone
> 
> If she truly still likes it but not with you, then yes, you've most definitely got a serious problem. But I don't think that is the scenario under discussion in this thread. That's one for the infidelity forum.


And that's where communication comes in. Figuring out where the aversion lies... with the act, or with the partner.

Along a similar vein...my wifes gushing over other men. I wouldn't mind if she gushed over men, if she gush over me me the same way, or if she didn't gush over anyone at all.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Because the desire to be a mother and "I want anal" are EXACTLY the same
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be TMI and say my hubby enjoys that particular act (and I don't mind it either). But he'ed never presume to say him getting anal is the same as me being a mom.
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point



My wife would disagree. She sometimes feels being a mum is a major pain in the ass as is anal sometimes. 

But as they say: no pain, no gain. Upwards and inwards. All good things must cum into an end. Buggers can’t be choosers. Hope for the best, Preparation H for the worst. Choose your anal-ogies wisely. Etc etc.

Speaking of analogies: the analogy of comparing the question “why with bob and not with me?” versus coercing someone into sex against their will/taking away their choice still makes the least sense to me.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> As I noted earlier, this is the answer: Women say sex is different. Men don't see why it should be and often feel that it's mighty convenient that the rules that apply to everything else don't apply to the one thing they (usually) desire the most.
> 
> That's the gender difference here.
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded is pretty much true.
> 
> There's little you can do to make it better.
> 
> You just feel bad.
> 
> Which is why I try so hard to avoid being in that position and why I have empathy for those who are in it.



The ‘you can’t’ and ‘leave if you don’t accept it’ are in many cases counterproductive advices. If you are facing an issue, you talk about it and try to resolve it and come to some sort of understanding or compromise. Some people seem to never have heard of that word or what it means to implement it in a relationship and it’s a shame because compromise is The Most Important word when it comes to relationships.

You don’t just get up and leave every time you find something unsatisfactory. And it is completely not true that you can’t change somebody’s perspective and attitude to things.

My marriage experiences many dramatic shifts through talking, compromise and empathy (sex was definitely one of them). The idea that you can’t change people’s minds and perspectives about something and don’t even have the right to approach the subject because ‘it takes away the agency’ sounds like some kind of new feminist thingy that is not really helpful to anybody.

Yes you should never force anybody to do anything against their will but that’s quite different from what is being discussed here.


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## 269370

I thought there were several examples on this thread given (and I haven’t even read the whole thing). But there are lots of real world examples if you do a quick google search:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=w...YcgA0oQrQIoAzADegQIBBAH&biw=375&bih=768&dpr=3

I agree it’s not that common to actually experience it because you usually won’t know your wife’s past because unless she is stupid, she is not going to talk about it. However if this comes out, and you also are unfortunate enough to have currently a ****ty sex life, then it’s very likely that this will be a real issue, like on thousands of those threads.

Best to just keep a healthy sex life in tact then it won’t matter what anyone did in the past. The fact that this becomes an issue is a sign that the relationship is in trouble. The past in itself is NOT the issue.


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## 269370

Livvie said:


> Exactly!!! Accept the package as is, or don't marry her! If a man accepts not "getting" (as many seem to term it) sex act ABC and married her anyway, then he should still accept her if later on he learned of a sex act she did in the past she doesn't do with him.
> 
> Otherwise isn't that a bait and switch acceptance??????????



As has been observed many times ‘the package’ does tend to change over time. Now there maybe many reasons for it but saying ‘accept it or leave it’ is not really applicable to most real world situations. Sex life does tend to get stale more often than not. Is it better to be jealous of yourself 20 years ago from now rather than jealous of Bob? 


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## I shouldnthave

CharlieParker said:


> It's all a bit fuzzy as this was over 20 years ago but IIRC it wasn't a big deal.
> 
> My wife told me (I don't remember the context) that she went down on guy while he was driving a car. When on a less traveled highway I suggested I'd be available for that she said no, the car wasn't physically suited for that. Well, OK, I guess, but in that case a handy would certainly be dandy, she wanted no part of that. I wasn't happy but didn't dwell on it.


Curious, can you recall what the mood was like during that drive? Had you been flirting with her, caressing her ear, rubbing her inner thigh, telling her how wonderful it is to get away from everything, with her, told her how beautiful she looks in the country light?

I ask.... Because a theme of this thread is that "she did it for someone else, so why won't she do it for me" - and how that gets internalized by the man, that she must have been more attracted to the other guy.

For many women, the mood, the lead up, feeling wanted, and lusted after matters.

I am not in a habit of telling my husband "no" and I readily provide him road head..... But ya know what is way better than him asking me for road head? When he gets me worked up so that I WANT to give him road head, when he gets me sexed up so it's something I really want to do for him without him even asking.

Maybe it's the way he pulls me in, and presses against me before we get back in the car after stopping for gas. The way he kisses my neck, the way he looks at me with an impassioned lustful gaze.

Or the way he caresses my cheek as I nap in the passenger seat, and slowly trails down till his fingers are in my panties, and the next thing I know I am cumming....

I have an animal training back ground, and it may sound condescending, but I find a lot of it carries over to people.

If you want them to behave in a certain way, you have to make that option appealing, you have to open that door for them to walk through on their own, while making the "wrong" answers less comfortable. You set them up for success by making the "right" answer easy,, and the wrong one less rewarding.

Then you give them tons of accolades for walking through the right door - positive reinforcement like this builds a bond and confidence.

Sceneio like this, if someone wants road head, I see building her up, sexing her up, and then telling her how absolutely amazing she is for making the first step in the right direction.


----------



## 269370

I shouldnthave said:


> Curious, can you recall what the mood was like during that drive? Had you been flirting with her, caressing her ear, rubbing her inner thigh, telling her how wonderful it is to get away from everything, with her, told her how beautiful she looks in the country light?
> 
> 
> 
> I ask.... Because a theme of this thread is that "she did it for someone else, so why won't she do it for me" - and how that gets internalized by the man, that she must have been more attracted to the other guy.
> 
> 
> 
> For many women, the mood, the lead up, feeling wanted, and lusted after matters.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not in a habit of telling my husband "no" and I readily provide him road head..... But ya know what is way better than him asking me for road head? When he gets me worked up so that I WANT to give him road head, when he gets me sexed up so it's something I really want to do for him without him even asking.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's the way he pulls me in, and presses against me before we get back in the car after stopping for gas. The way he kisses my neck, the way he looks at me with an impassioned lustful gaze.
> 
> 
> 
> Or the way he caresses my cheek as I nap in the passenger seat, and slowly trails down till his fingers are in my panties, and the next thing I know I am cumming....
> 
> 
> 
> I have an animal training back ground, and it may sound condescending, but I find a lot of it carries over to people.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want them to behave in a certain way, you have to make that option appealing, you have to open that door for them to walk through on their own, while making the "wrong" answers less comfortable. You set them up for success by making the "right" answer easy,, and the wrong one less rewarding.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you give them tons of accolades for walking through the right door - positive reinforcement like this builds a bond and confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> Sceneio like this, if someone wants road head, I see building her up, sexing her up, and then telling her how absolutely amazing she is for making the first step in the right direction.



Your car insurance premiums must be astronomical!


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----------



## I shouldnthave

inmyprime said:


> Your car insurance premiums must be astronomical!


Hahahaha! We both have safe driver discounts, no accidents since we were teenager 

We do road trip a ton, always take the back roads if we have a chance, and bought a Honda Element because a bed fits perfectly in the back 

If the Honda is a rockin' don't come a knockin'


----------



## Married but Happy

I shouldnthave said:


> If you want them to behave in a certain way, you have to make that option appealing, you have to open that door for them to walk through on their own, while making the "wrong" answers less comfortable. You set them up for success by making the "right" answer easy,, and the wrong one less rewarding.


This is so correct, so insightful. The post I quoted this from should be required reading!


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I just had a thought.
> 
> What if that other guy was you?
> 
> Which is to say what about a wife who used to do sexual things with YOU that she doesn't want to do any more?
> 
> Oral seems to be the most common example. Lots of threads about how he was getting tons of it from her back in the day, but not any more. While guys are understandably disappointed by this, they don't jump to the conclusion that there is some sort of nefarious intent on her part, or that she was more into him then than him now, or that she's lazy, insensitive, cold-hearted, abusive, etc. Let's face it, people evolve, people change, and if we're perfectly honest, we have to acknowledge that for many, dating behavior is not always the same as married behavior. It may cause friction, but it's not evil.
> 
> So if we can accept that our wives have changed while with us, why should we not accept that our wives may have changed from before us to after us?


Well.... actually, if my wife used to give me oral and then stopped, thinking that she wasn't as sexually into me as she used to be is *exactly* what I'd think.

And I'd probably be right too.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t think cheating is the same as what someone has done in the past before you even knew them. Sorry this analogy doesn’t work.
> 
> However, as a separate scenario, of course the BS should be hurt or devastated by their WS screwing someone else! And of course if the WS had wild monkey sex with their AP the BS will likely never get over it. (Though I should point out that some can. Or maybe they only can if it wasn’t wild monkey sex? Or if they just weren’t that into sex themselves anyway?)


Actually, I think it might be a *better* analogy.

In the case of an affair, you know that it's not because she tried it once and hated it or did it so long ago that she's a different person now.

It does seem to indicate that sex acts performed with others but not your spouse is a proxy for lack of sexual desire for the spouse.

And, it would seem that the most of the conditions that supposedly drive wild monkey sex in an affair (new, exciting, etc) would have been present in the early stages of the relationship with the spouse.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think it's also worth adding that, if you are the aggrieved party, does the "why" of you not getting what you want really matter?


Yes. I think the "why" is more important than whether I "get" the act or not.

The "why' might indicate that my wife isn't into me sexually and married me primarily because of my checkbook and father potential.

Not getting the act would bother me less if I knew she'd never done it with anyone else either (assuming that this was a sex act that I could live without, I'd never marry someone who didn't give oral*).

* Every time I type "give" or "get" in relationship to a sex act, I'm thinking that I might trigger women. But, it doesn't seem to have that effect. It's pretty common usage.


----------



## Buddy400

On a related topic...

How does everyone feel about the following situation:

You meet someone new and, when the relationship gets intimate, she announces that she doesn't believe in NSA blowjobs.

Ok, you like NSA blowjobs but you can understand her position and it's not a deal breaker.

Subsequently, it's revealed by a friend of hers that she previously gave NSA blowjobs to others.

Not only that, her ex-husband (who she says treated her badly) used to come over to her place for NSA blowjobs on a regular basis *after* they were divorced and *up until just before *she met you.

In fact, she actually initiated some of those meetups.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think cheating is the same as what someone has done in the past before you even knew them. Sorry this analogy doesn’t work.
> 
> However, as a separate scenario, of course the BS should be hurt or devastated by their WS screwing someone else! And of course if the WS had wild monkey sex with their AP the BS will likely never get over it. (Though I should point out that some can. Or maybe they only can if it wasn’t wild monkey sex? Or if they just weren’t that into sex themselves anyway?)
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think it might be a *better* analogy.
> 
> In the case of an affair, you know that it's not because she tried it once and hated it or did it so long ago that she's a different person now.
> 
> It does seem to indicate that sex acts performed with others but not your spouse is a proxy for lack of sexual desire for the spouse.
> 
> And, it would seem that the most of the conditions that supposedly drive wild monkey sex in an affair (new, exciting, etc) would have been present in the early stages of the relationship with the spouse.
Click to expand...

This scenario would seem to mimic what Esther Perel says. Too much boredom creates a vacuum for her, and her tendency is to lose her attraction for him over time.


----------



## samyeagar

Buddy400 said:


> On a related topic...
> 
> How does everyone feel about the following situation:
> 
> You meet someone new and, when the relationship gets intimate, she announces that she doesn't believe in NSA blowjobs.
> 
> Ok, you like NSA blowjobs but you can understand her position and it's not a deal breaker.
> 
> Subsequently, it's revealed by a friend of hers that she previously gave NSA blowjobs to others.
> 
> Not only that, her ex-husband (who she says treated her badly) used to come over to her place for NSA blowjobs on a regular basis *after* they were divorced and *up until just before *she met you.
> 
> In fact, she actually initiated some of those meetups.


Ooooh boy....


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Buddy400 said:


> On a related topic...
> 
> How does everyone feel about the following situation:
> 
> You meet someone new and, when the relationship gets intimate, she announces that she doesn't believe in NSA blowjobs.
> 
> Ok, you like NSA blowjobs but you can understand her position and it's not a deal breaker.
> 
> Subsequently, it's revealed by a friend of hers that she previously gave NSA blowjobs to others.
> 
> Not only that, her ex-husband (who she says treated her badly) used to come over to her place for NSA blowjobs on a regular basis *after* they were divorced and *up until just before *she met you.
> 
> In fact, she actually initiated some of those meetups.



I would think:

A: she is trying to regain some self respect and this is the very start of her trying to make better choices

or 

B: she finds bjs very intimate and she's not that into me at the moment

or 

C: this gal is rebounding, this isn't going passed NSA sex, "what's her anal policy?"

or

D: why is her friend telling me this? If I work this right, I'm doing a FMF threesome


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> On a related topic...
> 
> How does everyone feel about the following situation:
> 
> You meet someone new and, when the relationship gets intimate, she announces that she doesn't believe in NSA blowjobs.
> 
> Ok, you like NSA blowjobs but you can understand her position and it's not a deal breaker.
> 
> Subsequently, it's revealed by a friend of hers that she previously gave NSA blowjobs to others.
> 
> Not only that, her ex-husband (who she says treated her badly) used to come over to her place for NSA blowjobs on a regular basis *after* they were divorced and *up until just before *she met you.
> 
> In fact, she actually initiated some of those meetups.



Haha, people will point out that it’s too hypothetical. Meeting someone new who doesn’t believe in BJs is very unusual 


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## Buddy400

PigglyWiggly said:


> I would think:
> 
> A: she is trying to regain some self respect and this is the very start of her trying to make better choices
> 
> or
> 
> B: she finds bjs very intimate and she's not that into me at the moment
> 
> or
> 
> C: this gal is rebounding, this isn't going passed NSA sex, "what's her anal policy?"
> 
> or
> 
> D: why is her friend telling me this? If I work this right, I'm doing a FMF threesome


A. Maybe. It would be understandable but, what bad timing for him

B. This is was stated as a life long policy as in "I never give NSA blowjobs"

C.?

D. It's a group of friends with a casual, open attitude about sex, but there could be hope?


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> Haha, people will point out that it’s too hypothetical. Meeting someone new who doesn’t believe in BJs is very unusual


She'll give blowjobs, just not in a one-way him only situation. Only as part of a mutual sexual experience.


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> She'll give blowjobs, just not in a one-way him only situation. Only as part of a mutual sexual experience.



How does it work? A BJ is always ‘one way’ only unless she climbs onto your face? Or you mean she will give a BJ in return after her orgasm? (Trying to picture it...).

I am not sure many women give ‘NSA’ BJs in exchange to have their orgasm. If any strings are attached it will be in relationship whether the guy was acting like a jerk (which may include neglecting her sexually) or she wants something other than orgasm from him in return. A man giving a woman an orgasm can’t be THAT important for her.


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## 269370

I would like to know something different in the thread’s context:

Do people think that there should be some sort of norm when it comes to sex? As in, would people consider that having sex in just one position for the whole marriage as unusual? What’s common: once a day, once a week, once a month, year etc? Would people consider a woman who dislikes giving BJs abnormal? Or a guy who wants to have anal twice a day unusual? Etc.

Because if there is such a thing as a spectrum that is considered ‘normal’ and when that frequency/quality falls outside those norms, then it should be possible to bring it up with your partner as an issue without women calling men whiny, entitled, pouty or whatever.

From the comments, it seems that women should always have the final say in determining whatever it is they want to do and however frequent and all the guy can do is either accept it or leave it and if he wants to actively change that situation (by bringing it up with his wife) it seems to be considered in best case whiny and worst case akin to sexual abuse/coercion. Which to me is so bizarre; no functioning relationship that actually has a chance to remain functional works in this way.


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## 269370

Double


----------



## oldtruck

Sometimes things are black and white.
Dating world no means no to prevent date rape.
Cannot not give consent to have sex if she is drunk, prevent date rape.

Sometimes people try to claim things are black and white when they
are shades of gray.

People harped on "anal" when all it was used as an example of a sex act
that a wife may not want to do.

People pointed out the health risks to doing anal and that is why a wife
is justified to not give up anal. When the post was not about health risks
of certain sex acts. Specially when anal was used as an example of a
possible sex act refusal.

Lack of being able to break down the issue into shades of gray to see
what scenarios would support times when the wife should stand firm
and say no or take one for the them.

No comment on if the wife was raped and the Perp did anal left the
wife never willing to do anal again.

When it was pointed out that the man was a late bloomer and got very
little action. You would think his wife would show compassion and take
one for the team to help him explore and learn about sex and work
through his bucket list. Making him a better lover along the way. The 
response was that he was a loser for not getting layed, relayed, overlayed,
delayed, paved, repaved, fall asleep and the do it again in the moring
when they woke up.

The support for not compromising by many her was sad. Wife: no that one
is a deal breaker, yes I know I did it before explaining why. Agreeing to
other things that she had done before but would do them once so he could
get to do them once. Taking into account his ego, his need to experience
and explore sex to grow. If his wife does not help him do this then how is
he to grow this part of his life?


----------



## Livvie

oldtruck said:


> Sometimes things are black and white.
> Dating world no means no to prevent date rape.
> Cannot not give consent to have sex if she is drunk, prevent date rape.
> 
> Sometimes people try to claim things are black and white when they
> are shades of gray.
> 
> People harped on "anal" when all it was used as an example of a sex act
> that a wife may not want to do.
> 
> People pointed out the health risks to doing anal and that is why a wife
> is justified to not give up anal. When the post was not about health risks
> of certain sex acts. Specially when anal was used as an example of a
> possible sex act refusal.
> 
> Lack of being able to break down the issue into shades of gray to see
> what scenarios would support times when the wife should stand firm
> and say no or take one for the them.
> 
> No comment on if the wife was raped and the Perp did anal left the
> wife never willing to do anal again.
> 
> When it was pointed out that the man was a late bloomer and got very
> little action. You would think his wife would show compassion and take
> one for the team to help him explore and learn about sex and work
> through his bucket list. Making him a better lover along the way. The
> response was that he was a loser for not getting layed, relayed, overlayed,
> delayed, paved, repaved, fall asleep and the do it again in the moring
> when they woke up.
> 
> The support for not compromising by many her was sad. Wife: no that one
> is a deal breaker, yes I know I did it before explaining why. Agreeing to
> other things that she had done before but would do them once so he could
> get to do them once. Taking into account his ego, his need to experience
> and explore sex to grow. If his wife does not help him do this then how is
> he to grow this part of his life?


That's really one sided, the way you describe it. You describe a situation in which they aren't doing things *together they want to do together*. Mutuality isn't existing if one partner doesn't want to do it. It's one person very much using another's body to check a sex act off their "bucket list". As you said. Imagine the resentment that grows if she eventually agrees to participate in a sex act she has told her partner she had no desire to do but does it so he can "grow and explore". The thoughts as is happening. The seeds of possible distaste for his body and sex with him growing during whatever sex act it is. 

If he needs to "explore sex and grow" by doing sexual things his wife DOES NOT WANT TO DO then isn't his way of exploring and growing basically using her body?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> Well.... actually, if my wife used to give me oral and then stopped, thinking that she wasn't as sexually into me as she used to be is *exactly* what I'd think.
> 
> And I'd probably be right too.


But it's still not comparing you to others...
...unless she is blowing someone else.

Which is another whole level of problem.

At least in my marriage, the variety of what we do has narrowed... but my wife clearly enjoys what we are doing more than she used to. So dropping things from her repertoire is not an indication of being less into me... it just means she's settled into what she does and doesn't like.


----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She'll give blowjobs, just not in a one-way him only situation. Only as part of a mutual sexual experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does it work? A BJ is always ‘one way’ only unless she climbs onto your face? Or you mean she will give a BJ in return after her orgasm? (Trying to picture it...).
> 
> I am not sure many women give ‘NSA’ BJs in exchange to have their orgasm. If any strings are attached it will be in relationship whether the guy was acting like a jerk (which may include neglecting her sexually) or she wants something other than orgasm from him in return. A man giving a woman an orgasm can’t be THAT important for her.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

???????????????????????????????????

Did you really just say that a man giving a woman an orgasm can't be that important to her?

Do you believe that sex is just for a man, and that women don't orgasm? 

You do know that it's possible for a man to give a woman NSA oral or a manual orgasm too, right?

Your disbelief is confusing.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> Yes. I think the "why" is more important than whether I "get" the act or not.
> 
> The "why' might indicate that my wife isn't into me sexually and married me primarily because of my checkbook and father potential.
> 
> Not getting the act would bother me less if I knew she'd never done it with anyone else either (assuming that this was a sex act that I could live without, I'd never marry someone who didn't give oral*).
> 
> * Every time I type "give" or "get" in relationship to a sex act, I'm thinking that I might trigger women. But, it doesn't seem to have that effect. It's pretty common usage.


It might, but why jump to that conclusion?

Bottom line though is you're still unfulfilled. So either way, you've got a problem.


----------



## Livvie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I think the "why" is more important than whether I "get" the act or not.
> 
> The "why' might indicate that my wife isn't into me sexually and married me primarily because of my checkbook and father potential.
> 
> Not getting the act would bother me less if I knew she'd never done it with anyone else either (assuming that this was a sex act that I could live without, I'd never marry someone who didn't give oral*).
> 
> * Every time I type "give" or "get" in relationship to a sex act, I'm thinking that I might trigger women. But, it doesn't seem to have that effect. It's pretty common usage.
> 
> 
> 
> It might, but why jump to that conclusion?
> 
> Bottom line though is you're still unfulfilled. So either way, you've got a problem.
Click to expand...

I'm back to the bait and switch theory on the part of the man. If you weren't unfulfilled UNTIL you knew your partner had done the sex act in the past with someone else, then isn't making it a big deal about it ONLY after learning of it a mental bait and switch?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I had to look up NSA.

All I could think of was a bunch dudes in the National Security Agency getting their knobs polished.


----------



## samyeagar

inmyprime said:


> Haha, people will point out that it’s too hypothetical. Meeting someone new who doesn’t believe in BJs is very unusual
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not necessarily all that hypothetical.

Something that was readily understood and accepted at face value, only to learn of the apparent contradiction. The first and perhaps biggest trouble spot would be the fact that it would leave one thinking "one of these things is not like the other"


----------



## personofinterest

"You would think his wife would show compassion and take one for the team to help him explore and learn about sex and work through his bucket list. "

Ya, I officially give up now. Theres no reasoning with someone who actually thinks like this.


----------



## FrenchFry

.


----------



## cashcratebob

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t think cheating is the same as what someone has done in the past before you even knew them. Sorry this analogy doesn’t work.
> 
> However, as a separate scenario, of course the BS should be hurt or devastated by their WS screwing someone else! And of course if the WS had wild monkey sex with their AP the BS will likely never get over it. (Though I should point out that some can. Or maybe they only can if it wasn’t wild monkey sex? Or if they just weren’t that into sex themselves anyway?)


I must be a really bad communicator cause you missed my entire intent. My intent was to look at the sex portion an affair and compare that to a women's sexual relationships before marriage/committed relationship...specifically between hot AP and hot College Beau. I think the physiological/biological responses leading up to and during the sex are the same. My intent was not to even imply what a women does in her past is analogous to cheating now...like you cheated on me before we knew each other. That was NOT my intent. My intent was to imply and down right say, that a women's sexual response is directly tied to her attraction to him(duh right?). More intense attraction gives way to more intense sex w/ her willingness to try whatever the partner wants; and this often being an entirely unconscious response in the same what that her denial of her current committed partner is an unconscious response. Maybe not all the time in every case...but in a general sense...I see this as entirely valid. And the wealth of "data" we have here on TAM regarding WSs and APs supports this. 

And I really wasn't interested in the effects of said monkey sex on the BS...except in the context of its relation to the effects of a women's previous sexual tendencies on her current committed partner.


----------



## personofinterest

FrenchFry said:


> I honestly don’t think you guys want to hear a thing women are saying—@Faithfulwife pointed out exactly why women aren’t here to entertain all your hypotheticals and yet here we are still going on about “well maybe it’s that women are just tooooo triggered.”
> 
> What are you looking for here?


They want us to say they are right so they can go back and badger their wives.

They're wrong. So that won't be happening.


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> ???????????????????????????????????
> 
> Did you really just say that a man giving a woman an orgasm can't be that important to her?
> 
> Do you believe that sex is just for a man, and that women don't orgasm?
> 
> You do know that it's possible for a man to give a woman NSA oral or a manual orgasm too, right?
> 
> Your disbelief is confusing.




I didn’t say that. It’s best to read and try to understand the whole paragraph rather than just pick out a few words or a sentence.


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----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

oldtruck said:


> Sometimes things are black and white.
> Dating world no means no to prevent date rape.
> Cannot not give consent to have sex if she is drunk, prevent date rape.
> 
> Sometimes people try to claim things are black and white when they
> are shades of gray.
> 
> People harped on "anal" when all it was used as an example of a sex act
> that a wife may not want to do.
> 
> People pointed out the health risks to doing anal and that is why a wife
> is justified to not give up anal. When the post was not about health risks
> of certain sex acts. Specially when anal was used as an example of a
> possible sex act refusal.
> 
> Lack of being able to break down the issue into shades of gray to see
> what scenarios would support times when the wife should stand firm
> and say no or take one for the them.
> 
> No comment on if the wife was raped and the Perp did anal left the
> wife never willing to do anal again.
> 
> When it was pointed out that the man was a late bloomer and got very
> little action. You would think his wife would show compassion and take
> one for the team to help him explore and learn about sex and work
> through his bucket list. Making him a better lover along the way. The
> response was that he was a loser for not getting layed, relayed, overlayed,
> delayed, paved, repaved, fall asleep and the do it again in the moring
> when they woke up.
> 
> The support for not compromising by many her was sad. Wife: no that one
> is a deal breaker, yes I know I did it before explaining why. Agreeing to
> other things that she had done before but would do them once so he could
> get to do them once. Taking into account his ego, his need to experience
> and explore sex to grow. If his wife does not help him do this then how is
> he to grow this part of his life?


Even your black and white example is very grey. How drunk is too drunk to give consent? At what BAC is a person too impaired to make decisions? Is it the same for everyone? What about the person who while stone cold sober laid plans to get drunk and get laid... once drunk are th he then disqualified from getting laid? I once had a women drink me right under the table but remain firmly in control of her faculties.


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> I'm back to the bait and switch theory on the part of the man. If you weren't unfulfilled UNTIL you knew your partner had done the sex act in the past with someone else, then isn't making it a big deal about it ONLY after learning of it a mental bait and switch?



But not being unfulfilled before knowing about the past sex acts isn’t the premise. 

It’s more likely that dissatisfaction happens first and then the guy starts digging for reasons why that might be the case. And if he finds out that the wife enjoyed sex acts in the past that she doesn’t do with him now, it’s not that unreasonable to deduce that she’s either not that into those acts anymore or not that into her husband. It can really be just those two possibilities.

A real world example: when I felt that my wife was becoming disconnected from me some years ago, I began searching for reasons. I looked inwards as well as outwards but when I snooped around her emails, I found quite a few personal emails to an old friend/penpal where she was writing pretty personal stuff that I have not really experienced her sharing with me. It’s not that difficult to put 2 and 2 together to deduce that she was getting something from him that she wasn’t with me.

Still too hypothetical?

The question is then: should she, as my wife, have cut it out and perhaps devoted that time and attention that she spent on writing these emails towards our marriage, or continue to do whatever she wants because...’own agency’ etc. The point that doesn’t seem to be getting across is that we all have certain responsibilities and obligations towards our marriages. Where you draw the line is open for discussion and a personal matter but I don’t see how anyone can disagree or dismiss that commitment is paramount. And commitment doesn’t come without some obligations, perceived or real.


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----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????????????????
> 
> Did you really just say that a man giving a woman an orgasm can't be that important to her?
> 
> Do you believe that sex is just for a man, and that women don't orgasm?
> 
> You do know that it's possible for a man to give a woman NSA oral or a manual orgasm too, right?
> 
> Your disbelief is confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn’t say that. It’s best to read and try to understand the whole paragraph rather than just pick out a few words or a sentence.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You did say that. Those were your exact words.


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> You did say that. Those were your exact words.




Again: read the whole paragraph please, not only those ‘exact words’. Then it will make more sense.


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----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> You did say that. Those were your exact words.



For the record, for me personally, my wife’s orgasm (and the quality of it) is much more important than my own. It’s also more important for me that she has a good one, than it is for her. She would never withhold a BJ just to make sure that she would get hers, that’s what I was contesting: the premise didn’t seem realistic to me. She would probably not be in the mood if I was acting like a jerk on that day though. I never meant to imply that a man’s orgasm takes precedence; if you take that one sentence in isolation than it would seem that way.


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----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You did say that. Those were your exact words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again: read the whole paragraph please, not only those ‘exact words’. Then it will make more sense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I read the whole paragraph. No need to be snarky. It IS the boiled down meaning of what you were saying.


----------



## Faithful Wife

FrenchFry said:


> I honestly don’t think you guys want to hear a thing women are saying—@Faithfulwife pointed out exactly why women aren’t here to entertain all your hypotheticals and yet here we are still going on about “well maybe it’s that women are just tooooo triggered.”
> 
> What are you looking for here?


I think they want us to say yes, if any woman did anything sexual with someone but not you, it always means she was more into that guy. And they also want us to validate their entitlement to said unperformed act on the basis of our admission, and therefore all women need to prove to their current man that we are most into him by giving up the goods (taking one for the team).

Very confusing and insulting. But to them makes sense and we are just acting obtuse.

Again, there is a certain population at TAM. It has its own bell curve that doesn’t match what I’ve seen in the real world.


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> I read the whole paragraph. No need to be snarky. It IS the boiled down meaning of what you were saying.



Feel free to take away any meaning you like from what I said. It’s not going to change what I meant.


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----------



## 269370

I’m not a big fan of the ‘taking one for the team’ phrasing. I don’t think a woman should ever be subjected to anything she doesn’t want to do. However it is not that simple; if I was in that situation I would want to understand the reason. Like it was said many times: if the reason is that she really hates that act, it’s perfectly reasonable. If it’s because she hates doing that act WITH ME, it’s less so...And I would probably try to work out if there’s anything I can do to change that, if it can be changed.

I mean even if you play your wife into a corner and somehow ‘reason’ her into doing something she hates doing with you, that’s not going to change the fact that she hates doing it. What you really want is have your wife ‘enjoy’ that act with you more than what she enjoyed it with someone previously and that’s not going to happen. There’s no way around it.


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----------



## musicftw07

Buddy400 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's also worth adding that, if you are the aggrieved party, does the "why" of you not getting what you want really matter?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I think the "why" is more important than whether I "get" the act or not.
> 
> The "why' might indicate that my wife isn't into me sexually and married me primarily because of my checkbook and father potential.
> 
> Not getting the act would bother me less if I knew she'd never done it with anyone else either (assuming that this was a sex act that I could live without, I'd never marry someone who didn't give oral*).
> 
> * Every time I type "give" or "get" in relationship to a sex act, I'm thinking that I might trigger women. But, it doesn't seem to have that effect. It's pretty common usage.
Click to expand...

Agreed. This goes back to what I posted a day or two ago. It is up to the person imposing a sexual barrier to explain why the barrier exists.

If it has something to do with prior "damage" or "baggage" due to something bad that happened before me being her partner, then I can be quite understanding and sympathetic to it.

If, however, it DOES have something to do with me, then I need to know what that is in order to determine if it's something I can overcome or not. Have I put on a few pounds? Okay, I can lose some weight. There's measurable action I can take. But if she's "just not as into me" as she was with the guy from her past, then I need to make a decision as to whether or not that's something I can live with.

Context definitely matters.


----------



## 269370

Also depends which acts...
I can understand that anal is not everyone and can be a pain in the ass. I could live without it if my wife was completely against it.

I’m not sure I would be ok without BJs though.
I think if she is that grossed out by my schlong in general (and it wasn’t due to some sort of trauma), I would personally find it very difficult to come to terms with it. It seems very important for me to feel that she worships my manhood and that whenever she encounters my erection, she usually has no choice but for her lips to wander towards it  (by her own choice of course!)
It would be a shame to lose that dynamic, should it happen one day...

Other acts: I don’t know, I would be stressed out getting a BJ while driving. Traffic in/around London is pretty tough...


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----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

musicftw07 said:


> Agreed. This goes back to what I posted a day or two ago. It is up to the person imposing a sexual barrier to explain why the barrier exists.
> 
> If it has something to do with prior "damage" or "baggage" due to something bad that happened before me being her partner, then I can be quite understanding and sympathetic to it.
> 
> If, however, it DOES have something to do with me, then I need to know what that is in order to determine if it's something I can overcome or not. Have I put on a few pounds? Okay, I can lose some weight. There's measurable action I can take. But if she's "just not as into me" as she was with the guy from her past, then I need to make a decision as to whether or not that's something I can live with.
> 
> Context definitely matters.


It's great to be understanding and sympathetic, and it's nice to know that it's "not you," but if you're still not getting what you want, it's still gonna be tough. Even with understanding, resentment is likely to build.

It may even be best, and more understanding, for her as well as him, to seriously think about moving on. Not only does it give him a chance to find the whole package he wants, it gives her the opportunity to find someone who will be happy with her as is.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> I think they want us to say yes, if any woman did anything sexual with someone but not you, it always means she was more into that guy. And they also want us to validate their entitlement to said unperformed act on the basis of our admission, and therefore all women need to prove to their current man that we are most into him by giving up the goods (taking one for the team).
> 
> Very confusing and insulting. But to them makes sense and we are just acting obtuse.
> 
> Again, there is a certain population at TAM. It has its own bell curve that doesn’t match what I’ve seen in the real world.


I am not, personally, insulted by this attitude. More like used to it. Nor am I confused. That some men (many men truth be told) are baffled by the new world order of women being responsible for and capable of having their own sexual desires, wants and needs and that wife means sexual being for him is no surprise at all. Oldtruck seems one small step away from an incel in his attitude. Aside from abject trauma, if she did it at all ever then she owes it to "husband" unless the reason is good enough for HIM. I would walk or run away from that so fast it would make the dude's head spin. And then he be would over in citydata relationships asking what is wrong with me that I would not give this poor guy another chance.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not, personally, insulted by this attitude. More like used to it. Nor am I confused. That some men (many men truth be told) are baffled by the new world order of women being responsible for and capable of having their own sexual desires, wants and needs and that wife means sexual being for him is no surprise at all. Oldtruck seems one small step away from an incel in his attitude. Aside from abject trauma, if she did it at all ever then she owes it to "husband" unless the reason is good enough for HIM. I would walk or run away from that so fast it would make the dude's head spin. And then he be would over in citydata relationships asking what is wrong with me that I would not give this poor guy another chance.



Why do you and others extrapolate one phrase somebody said you didn’t like on ‘many men’?
This ‘new world order’ you mention is really not that new anymore and MOST men embrace it (at least within my demographic). In my experience it’s actually been mostly women, who still can’t embrace the fact that most men have embraced it and those women still believe in ghosts of the past long gone. I’m not sure why. Perhaps it is easier to live with the belief that there’s a conspiracy somewhere out there against you.


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----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Why do you and others extrapolate one phrase somebody said you didn’t like on ‘many men’?


Well, I didn't. I have long known that this attitude is present in many men long before TAM. Unlike FW, I have met and even dated them in my youth before I learned. I am not sure what one phrase you think I am referring to. 



> This ‘new world order’ you mention is really not that new anymore and MOST men embrace it (at least within my demographic). In my experience it’s actually been mostly women, who still can’t embrace the fact that most men have embraced it and those women still believe in ghosts of the past long gone. I’m not sure why. Perhaps it is easier to live with the belief that there’s a conspiracy somewhere out there against you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think there is a conspiracy. And I really don't think most men embrace it, alas. The attitude of which I speak has been core to our societal framework for a very long time and is not easily dispelled. The fact that many individual men (and really women if you want to know the truth) don't see it as anything other than ghosts from some distant past is part of why they can't wrap their heads around anything different.

There is certainly no one conspiring against me! I have a lovely husband and a lovely BF both of whom literally laugh at the stuff that comes out of SIM. My husband has dumped more women who play sexual currency games quickly as well. No time for that BS. It is not healthy.


----------



## 269370

I must be from a different generation or demographic. My experience has been nothing what you have described (and ascribed) so far.

What I do sometimes see on TAM is when somebody says something mildly controversial (and doesn’t phrase it very well), it is then taken out of context and extrapolated into some generalisation, then other members rather than going by the original comment, refer and accept that extrapolation by somebody else as gospel truth.
It’s the same principle as playing Chinese Whispers.
I always try to refer to the original source and figure out what was meant from there, not from subsequent comments.

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----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I must be from a different generation or demographic. My experience has been nothing what you have described (and ascribed) so far.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your own words belie a subconscious acceptance of this attitude when you say it *depends on the act* and how reasonable YOU find not like an example of same. No words about how SHE may or may not feel or think about it.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> Your own words belie a subconscious acceptance of this attitude when you say it *depends on the act* and how reasonable YOU find not like an example of same. No words about how SHE may or may not feel or think about it.




No it doesn’t. You simply have not understood what I said and ascribed it your own meaning that suits your agenda, sorry to say.
Then 50 other women will read your misinterpretation of what i said and this is how the snowball of paranoia starts rolling.

‘It depends on which acts’ does NOT in any way mean that some acts should be forced upon anyone and some shouldn’t. I simply stated which acts I could live and couldn’t live (very well) without in my own relationship. It doesn’t mean my wife OWES me anything.

Don’t know if it is a general comprehension issue or something else but it’s kinda tiring...
It’s like you need a team of lawyers looking over every word you write and it still completely misses the mark.


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----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> No it doesn’t. You simply have not understood what I said and ascribed it your own meaning that suits your agenda, sorry to say.


hhhhm, me and several others. Whoda thunk. Believe it or not, I don't have an agenda. I have experiences. I have no dog in this fight. 



> Then 50 other women will read your misinterpretation of what i said and this is how the snowball of paranoia starts rolling.


I am not even the first one to speak to your own words, so I am not sure how you are laying this on me. Maybe you are not as good a communicator as you think?



> ‘It depends on which acts’ does NOT in any way mean that some acts should be forced upon anyone and some shouldn’t. I simply stated which acts I could live and couldn’t live (very well) without in my own relationship. It doesn’t mean my wife OWES me anything.


I also never said anything about force. That is all you. And I am all kinds of good with choosing whatever you want in your relationship. But that is really not the topic of this conversation, is it?


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> hhhhm, me and several others. Whoda thunk. Believe it or not, I don't have an agenda. I have experiences. I have no dog in this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not even the first one to speak to your own words, so I am not sure how you are laying this on me. Maybe you are not as good a communicator as you think?


I probably am not. But it always helps if you actually start out a conversation with the assumption that ‘many men’ are not some sort of chauvinistic pigs in aggregate.




NobodySpecial said:


> I also never said anything about force. That is all you. And I am all kinds of good with choosing whatever you want in your relationship. But that is really not the topic of this conversation, is it?



Why don’t you say what you THINK the topic is? 
Here’s what I see: the thread question: ‘you did it for other men but not me’ is to me an expression of dissatisfaction. To many others, it seems to mean a demand, command or an ultimatum. I don’t get why there is this huge difference in interpretation.



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----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I probably am not. But it always helps if you actually start out a conversation with the assumption that ‘many men’ are not some sort of chauvinistic pigs in aggregate.


I don't think that so I did not assume that. I did not say anything about any group in aggregate. I spoke about my thoughts on many men. I also don't see that range of attitude as two sharp points, chauvinistic pig and fully enlightened mature person. I think many people still struggle with a sea change in romantic relationships that are demonstrated by the positions that they put them selves in and the way they react to them. I also said, upthread quite a lot, that it is too bad since people who find themselves in these positions, would actually improve their lot if they could understand what was going on.




> Why don’t you say what you THINK the topic is?
> Here’s what I see: the thread question: ‘you did it for other men but not me’ is to me an expression of dissatisfaction. To many others, it seems to mean a demand, command or an ultimatum. I don’t get why there is this huge difference in interpretation.


I do not thing that it means a demand, command or ultimatum. But nor do I think it is a healthy expression of dissatisfaction. It has ranged all over starting with the very use of the word FOR. That she did it FOR someone else. We discussed the ick factor of that at some length. It went on to touch on soothing the fragile male ego to the point that it is all about the act itself and whether or not the "reason" was "good enough" to HIM. There is even one poster for whom the only example is either something that HE understand to be disgusting or trauma. There were a couple of other weird jags that I don't remember. Oh right, there was the whole what having done an act with someone else but not the husband really MEANS. REALLY means. It means she thinks this or she thinks that. But at no point did this particular group (obviously not everyone since there were quite a few people who don't have this attitude on this thread) consider the importance of what it means TO HER. **** she did the thing, and now doesn't do the thing. But TO him IT MEANS that SHE ... whatever.

It is interesting to me that you bring up the very harsh words of force, demand, command and ultimatum. I don't see really anyone saying that. Personally, I would have blown that topic off as a waste of time from the beginning.


----------



## Randy Lafever

inmyprime said:


> For the record, for me personally, my wife’s orgasm (and the quality of it) is much more important than my own.


Oh come on, you can be honest here. She won't see this.

If some oracle came to you and told you you would never have an orgasm again, no matter what you did, how would you feel about sex from then on?

I'll tell you: after a period of time, it would seem more and more like a chore. 

The orgasm is literally the point of the sex. It is the all-too-brief payoff to all the labor that comes before it.

Don't disrespect the orgasm, dude, or you may just lose it.



inmyprime said:


> What I do sometimes see on TAM is when somebody says something mildly controversial (and doesn’t phrase it very well), it is then taken out of context and extrapolated into some generalisation, then other members rather than going by the original comment, refer and accept that extrapolation by somebody else as gospel truth.
> It’s the same principle as playing *Chinese Whispers*.


Whoa, racist much????


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> Imagine the resentment that grows if she eventually agrees to participate in a sex act she has told her partner she had no desire to do but does it so he can "grow and explore".


That's the basic gender difference.

Most all guys here would do something sexual for their wife that they didn't like (not painful, not humiliating, not traumatizing) if their wife wanted it enough.

Probably because we don't have the history sexual abuse, manipulation and being used that women do. 

But the guy you're with isn't the one who did these bad things to other women in the past.

And that sort of shows here, the women here seem fine with doing anything with their husband because he's a good guy, the hypothetical guy the one who carries the weight of past wrongs.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But it's still not comparing you to others...
> ...unless she is blowing someone else.
> 
> Which is another whole level of problem.
> 
> At least in my marriage, the variety of what we do has narrowed... but my wife clearly enjoys what we are doing more than she used to. So dropping things from her repertoire is not an indication of being less into me... *it just means she's settled into what she does and doesn't like*.


That's a positive attitude to have.

As to the bolded; what I'm curious about is why what you do and don't like doesn't seem to play a role for your wife (or you).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> That's a positive attitude to have.
> 
> As to the bolded; what I'm curious about is why what you do and don't like doesn't seem to play a role for your wife (or you).


It does. I just don't assume theres some sort of negative force behind it. Could be. Worth investigating. But not an automatic default position.


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> I'm back to the bait and switch theory on the part of the man. If you weren't unfulfilled UNTIL you knew your partner had done the sex act in the past with someone else, then isn't making it a big deal about it ONLY after learning of it a mental bait and switch?


Let's say you were offered a job. The pay wasn't great but you enjoyed it, there was opportunity to advance and you were learning marketable skills. You take the job even though the pay seems a bit low, after all, there are some upside that make it worthwhile so you're pretty happy.

Then you find out that the person next to you, hired at the same time you were, with the same experience, doing the same job is making $20,000 more than you.

Now you're not happy.

Why?


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It might, but why jump to that conclusion?
> 
> Bottom line though is you're still unfulfilled. So either way, you've got a problem.


See the above post


----------



## Buddy400

FrenchFry said:


> I honestly don’t think you guys want to hear a thing women are saying @faithfulwife pointed out exactly why women aren’t here to entertain all your hypotheticals and yet here we are still going on about “well maybe it’s that women are just tooooo triggered.”
> 
> What are you looking for here?


Depends on who you're asking. 

I'm not really asking for anything at this point.

I think @faithfulwife answered the question.

1) Women think sex is different from anything else and 2) women trigger when guys talk about being "owed" or "getting" sex acts (and I can understand how they might feel this way). 

Now, I'm just participating in a conversation with other people who seem to be interested in the topic.


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> I read the whole paragraph. No need to be snarky. It IS the boiled down meaning of what you were saying.


I think @inmyprime gets to be the final arbiter of what he means.

In your favor is that it was pretty confusing.

The difference is that I assumed he was communicating in an unclear way and you thought he was saying something that, having read hundreds of his past posts, you had good reason to believe didn't actually mean.


----------



## Livvie

Buddy400 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm back to the bait and switch theory on the part of the man. If you weren't unfulfilled UNTIL you knew your partner had done the sex act in the past with someone else, then isn't making it a big deal about it ONLY after learning of it a mental bait and switch?
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say you were offered a job. The pay wasn't great but you enjoyed it, there was opportunity to advance and you were learning marketable skills. You take the job even though the pay seems a bit low, after all, there are some upside that make it worthwhile so you're pretty happy.
> 
> Then you find out that the person next to you, hired at the same time you were, with the same experience, doing the same job is making $20,000 more than you.
> 
> Now you're not happy.
> 
> Why?
Click to expand...

Not analogous. 

The "did or for him" hypothetically happened in the past, perhaps even at a totally different stage of life.

These two jobs are happening under equal circumstances.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I think they want us to say yes, if any woman did anything sexual with someone but not you, it always means she was more into that guy. And they also want us to validate their entitlement to said unperformed act on the basis of our admission, and therefore all women need to prove to their current man that we are most into him by giving up the goods (taking one for the team).
> 
> Very confusing and insulting. But to them makes sense and we are just acting obtuse.
> 
> Again, there is a certain population at TAM. It has its own bell curve that doesn’t match what I’ve seen in the real world.


If we're still looking for anything from the women here, it would be an acknowledgement of why we might feel that way even though women here don't believe we should.

And we'd rather have our feelings about this not be credited to "entitlement", "insecurity" or "fragile male egos".

But I don't think any men here are actually expecting to get any of that


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I also never said anything about force. That is all you. And I am all kinds of good with choosing whatever you want in your relationship. But that is really not the topic of this conversation, is it?


Yes, it is.

The long ago OP seems to have had some desire to require his wife to perform those acts with him. However, to eve his credit she only needed to perform those acts *if she wanted to stay married to him*. 

No one. No one. No one. Is saying that she is required to perform these acts by force. 

Men are saying that they suspect that their wife engaging in sex acts with others that she refuse with her husband *may* be indicative of having less desire for husband under certain circumstances. 

Men have repeatedly said that a woman always has an absolute right to do or not do anything she chooses to do with her body (and NONE of these statements have been acknowledged).

No man on this thread has said that a woman should be made to do anything sexually that she chooses not to do.

It has been stated repeatedly my men that we are not talking about situations where something was tried once and disliked, where pain, humiliation or abuse were involved or where physical or medical changes prevented the act from being repeated.

However women continue to act like we are talking about the above.

This whole conversation on the part of men is about how we would feel if this happened to us and why we would feel this way. That's it. We seem to believe that this may indicate that our SO is not as sexually attracted to us as she is to others. Women have a history of being used for sex. Men have a history of being used for their paycheck. 

So why are women feeling so attacked and put upon when they could easily walk away from a man who felt this way (and most insist they would)? To them, they'd have been done a favor by having a man reveal that they made a mistake being involved with them.

So what's the problem? 

I propose that the issue is that woman want to do whatever they want and also *want to require men to be okay with whatever choices they make*.

We all agree on the first. There's some disagreement about the second.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I do not thing that it means a demand, command or ultimatum. But nor do I think it is a healthy expression of dissatisfaction.


So, you acknowledge that men aren't demanding sex acts of women, aren't commanding sex acts of women and aren't issuing ultimatums to women regarding sex acts.

You're getting this bent out of shape because you think *our sense of dissatisfaction is unhealthy*?

You get to decide when we should or should not be satisfied?

How about women get to do whatever they want and *men* get to decide if they're satisfied or not.


----------



## Buddy400

Livvie said:


> Not analogous.
> 
> The "did or for him" hypothetically happened in the past, perhaps even at a totally different stage of life.
> 
> These two jobs are happening under equal circumstances.


Your point was that he was fulfilled, learned new information and now is not fulfilled. Hence, bait and switch.

The other person was making $20,000 more than you when you were happy with your job. You both were hired 5 years ago. Your co-worker has been making $20,000 more than you all along. And doing the same job as you the entire time. And receiving the same performance evaluations.

You were happy before you had this information. Now you have this information and now you are unhappy.


----------



## Buddy400

One last thought before I go on vacation and, hopefully, forget about this thread.

The main thing going on here is what sex means (in general) to men and women.

To women, sex apparently means whatever they think it means at the moment they engage in it.

To men, sex* means* something. Either the woman is sexually attracted to them, the woman loves them, the woman has sex easily, the woman has sex only when she's in a valued relationship, whatever, it means something and the meaning is consistent. 

Men make the error of trying to attribute their meanings to sexual actions of women. It's a mistake but it's understandable.

Men are not comfortable with a world in which sex means different things to women at different times and with different men. 

So, women don't understand what sex means to men and men don't understand what sex means to women. Fair enough.

The difference is that men don't try to browbeat women into accepting their meaning as the "truth".


----------



## Tiggy!

FrenchFry said:


> *I honestly don’t think you guys want to hear a thing women are saying*—@Faithfulwife pointed out exactly why women aren’t here to entertain all your hypotheticals and yet here we are still going on about “well maybe it’s that women are just tooooo triggered.”
> 
> What are you looking for here?


Pretty much what AnnieAsh said post #9 on this thread. I think that's why many hypothesis and scenarios have been posted that have zero to do with the subject but try to paint the men in this situation as a victim who's been cheated and wronged.


----------



## PreRaph

Well, I don't have much to add to this 238 page thread. 238 pages generally means the discussion has gone in several different directions and posters are talking past each other and then trying to get back on track, repeated many times.

So the issue is, I guess, that whatever "she" did in the past is not the same as what "she" wants to do now sexually, and that bothers some men. Many of us sow our wild oats before we get married, and being married to someone is different from seeing the boyfriend or lover over the weekend and fooking like rabbits. Much as some men don't want to see it, if the wife sees you the same way she saw the hot boyfriend, that's probably bodes ill for your marriage. 

Ain't it funny that this is what often happens in affairs as well? It's partly a nostalgic longing for that free and wild connection you haven't experienced for years. And it usually ends up blowing up in your face. 

I would only say that what matters is that when you and your wife have sex, that the both of you can still feel that light, easy sense of freedom that makes it great. Sex is play, one of the more pleasurable kinds of play. "No" is a way of limiting play, but so too are unfair expectations like, "do this for me because you did it for another man in the past." Too many no's will ruin it.

There's no formula here.


----------



## [email protected]

Well, I have to say it. I know a guy who was in the same situation. His W admitted that she had wild sex with two guys before marriage in which she did all kinds of things she later would not do with husband. In her eyes, he was the "safe", tame, vanilla lover she wouldn't have put up with before marriage. He was in second place(or perhaps third place). He felt degraded, unloved, and unmasculine, and he divorced her.


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## sokillme

[email protected] said:


> Well, I have to say it. I know a guy who was in the same situation. His W admitted that she had wild sex with two guys before marriage in which she did all kinds of things she later would not do with husband. In her eyes, he was the "safe", tame, vanilla lover she wouldn't have put up with before marriage. He was in second place(or perhaps third place). He felt degraded, unloved, and unmasculine, and he divorced her.


Much better solution then whining about it. I think everyone on this thread agrees.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> One last thought before I go on vacation and, hopefully, forget about this thread.
> 
> The main thing going on here is what sex means (in general) to men and women.
> 
> To women, sex apparently means whatever they think it means at the moment they engage in it.
> 
> To men, sex* means* something. Either the woman is sexually attracted to them, the woman loves them, the woman has sex easily, the woman has sex only when she's in a valued relationship, whatever, it means something and the meaning is consistent.
> 
> Men make the error of trying to attribute their meanings to sexual actions of women. It's a mistake but it's understandable.
> 
> Men are not comfortable with a world in which sex means different things to women at different times and with different men.
> 
> So, women don't understand what sex means to men and men don't understand what sex means to women. Fair enough.
> 
> The difference is that men don't try to browbeat women into accepting their meaning as the "truth".


Some men do try to brow beat women into accepting their meaning as the “truth” and lots of women have experienced men like this. There is a version of this going on here now. Women are not the ones beating home a point here. We are the ones saying your “truth” isn’t our truth and then 15 men come and say the same thing they have been saying for the whole thread.

Also.....men are not comfortable in a world where sex means different things at different times to women? That is sooooo contradictory to the men I’ve been with. Every single one of them had been with women who to them were one thing or another. Different meanings or lack of meanings. Some sex was casual or one time, some was committed and intimate, some was somewhere in between or changed from one to another type with the same woman. And every man I’ve been with understood that I’ve had similar different types of sex and meanings with different people. Men aren’t comfortable with this? But we all do this, I’ve never had a man be uncomfortable about this fact, because he’s done it too.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think that so I did not assume that. I did not say anything about any group in aggregate. I spoke about my thoughts on many men.


And how is speaking your thoughts on many men not speaking about a group (of many men) in aggregate? There is no evidence, even on this thread, that it’s ‘many men’ who have ‘this’ attitude. (Which attitude exactly?)



NobodySpecial said:


> I also don't see that range of attitude as two sharp points, chauvinistic pig and fully enlightened mature person. I think many people still struggle with a sea change in romantic relationships that are demonstrated by the positions that they put them selves in and the way they react to them. I also said, upthread quite a lot, that it is too bad since people who find themselves in these positions, would actually improve their lot if they could understand what was going on.


And what do YOU think is going on? I think most of us want to find this out.




NobodySpecial said:


> I do not thing that it means a demand, command or ultimatum. But nor do I think it is a healthy expression of dissatisfaction. It has ranged all over starting with the very use of the word FOR. That she did it FOR someone else. We discussed the ick factor of that at some length. It went on to touch on soothing the fragile male ego to the point that it is all about the act itself and whether or not the "reason" was "good enough" to HIM. There is even one poster for whom the only example is either something that HE understand to be disgusting or trauma. There were a couple of other weird jags that I don't remember. Oh right, there was the whole what having done an act with someone else but not the husband really MEANS. REALLY means. It means she thinks this or she thinks that. But at no point did this particular group (obviously not everyone since there were quite a few people who don't have this attitude on this thread) consider the importance of what it means TO HER. **** she did the thing, and now doesn't do the thing. But TO him IT MEANS that SHE ... whatever.


This is confused thinking or I don’t understand it: if men are trying to figure out what the reasons could be, then how is it not trying to figure out the importance of what it means TO HER?



NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting to me that you bring up the very harsh words of force, demand, command and ultimatum. I don't see really anyone saying that. Personally, I would have blown that topic off as a waste of time from the beginning.



I was not the first one to bring it up. Coercion and sexual abuse was already mentioned to shut men up. I restated it. I.e. because somebody somewhere forced someone into a sex act (because that’s apparently what many men really want to do deep down), it means men cannot bring the subject up with their partner or should not be surprised if he gets castigated for having feelings or questions about it.

To be honest I get impatient with both sides. I’m not sure why; this topic is not even an issue for me directly.
But it also isn’t for many others who argue the other side viciously. I guess I try to even out the scales, whatever <pouty face>




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----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It does. I just don't assume theres some sort of negative force behind it. Could be. Worth investigating. But not an automatic default position.



Isn’t that because you have no reason to assume a negative? Perhaps other men have a reason to feel insecure about whatever it is they are feeling insecure about.
I can sympathise because I know from my experience that pretty much any problem or insecurity can be immediately eliminated through enthusiastic sex, even if that problem was entirely unrelated to sex; again I know it sounds primitive and I often am amazed myself how easy it is to feel better about yourself and the world when your wife wants and supports you.
If you feel that your wife doesn’t want you that much, is grossed out by touching you down there or whatever and then you find out she was a completely different person back then (this is all from the OP, not speculation), why is it not understandable to have insecurities about it?


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> Let's say you were offered a job. The pay wasn't great but you enjoyed it, there was opportunity to advance and you were learning marketable skills. You take the job even though the pay seems a bit low, after all, there are some upside that make it worthwhile so you're pretty happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you find out that the person next to you, hired at the same time you were, with the same experience, doing the same job is making $20,000 more than you.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're not happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?




Because they might be buying more presents for their wife with those extra 20k resulting in more anal? 
These analogies are really a hit here.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> Depends on who you're asking.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not really asking for anything at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> I think @faithfulwife answered the question.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Women think sex is different from anything else and 2) women trigger when guys talk about being "owed" or "getting" sex acts (and I can understand how they might feel this way).



Unless they themselves have been forced or abused previously, I don’t understand the automatic extrapolation.



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## 269370

[email protected] said:


> Well, I have to say it. I know a guy who was in the same situation. His W admitted that she had wild sex with two guys before marriage in which she did all kinds of things she later would not do with husband. In her eyes, he was the "safe", tame, vanilla lover she wouldn't have put up with before marriage. He was in second place(or perhaps third place). He felt degraded, unloved, and unmasculine, and he divorced her.



How did he find out he was in third place?


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## Laurentium

Speaking only for myself (not "they"), it's yes and no:



Faithful Wife said:


> I think they want us to say yes, if any woman did anything sexual with someone but not you, it always means she was more into that guy.


Well, I'm not sure I want you to say that; but it's how I feel, so I want a partner of mine to understand that, and not tell me I'm wrong for feeling that way. At the very least, "yes I can see how you could feel like that", not "man up and get over it". 




> And they also want us to validate their entitlement to said unperformed act on the basis of our admission, and therefore all women need to prove to their current man that we are most into him by giving up the goods (taking one for the team).


On the other hand, totally NO to the above. It did sound as if the OP was saying that. Speaking for myself, no. That "entitlement" part is gross. 



> But to them makes sense and we are just acting obtuse.


Well yes - some posters here have definitely given the impression of "acting obtuse" - doing a Cathy Newman - finding some way to read a different meaning into things people say. I mean, c'mon, this is the internet. That's standard operating procedure for some people. 

My own story is this: I once dated someone who, in due course told me (I really don't understand why) that with a previous sexual partner, she had had impulsive sex with him, even though she "didn't mean to", because she just couldn't help herself. Mentally I contrasted that with her carefully negotiated approach to sex with me. I didn't find it possible to continue the relationship. What I believe I AM "entitled" to, if I can use that word, is to have my feelings, and to get out of a relationship. Her point of view was "just get over it". Mine was "please don't tell me how to feel". Irreconcilable.


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I think @inmyprime gets to be the final arbiter of what he means.
> 
> 
> 
> In your favor is that it was pretty confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that I assumed he was communicating in an unclear way and you thought he was saying something that, having read hundreds of his past posts, you had good reason to believe didn't actually mean.



I wrote ‘not THAT important’, and not ‘AS important’. The whole paragraph implies that the premise - where a woman would withhold an NSA BJ for the fear that she wouldn’t be getting an orgasm in return - seemed unrealistic. Hence the remark that the orgasm can’t be THAT important for her to do something so childish. Men are on average more eager to give women an orgasm than receiving it (at least I always felt that way).

It’s clear if you read the whole paragraph but the meaning changes if you just quote that one sentence. I was NOT implying that a man giving a woman an orgasm is less important than the woman giving a guy an orgasm which would be a ridiculous thing to say. I’m not sure how to explain it more clearly.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> The long ago OP seems to have had some desire to require his wife to perform those acts with him. However, to eve his credit she only needed to perform those acts *if she wanted to stay married to him*.
> 
> 
> 
> No one. No one. No one. Is saying that she is required to perform these acts by force.
> 
> 
> 
> Men are saying that they suspect that their wife engaging in sex acts with others that she refuse with her husband *may* be indicative of having less desire for husband under certain circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> Men have repeatedly said that a woman always has an absolute right to do or not do anything she chooses to do with her body (and NONE of these statements have been acknowledged).
> 
> 
> 
> No man on this thread has said that a woman should be made to do anything sexually that she chooses not to do.
> 
> 
> 
> It has been stated repeatedly my men that we are not talking about situations where something was tried once and disliked, where pain, humiliation or abuse were involved or where physical or medical changes prevented the act from being repeated.
> 
> 
> 
> However women continue to act like we are talking about the above.
> 
> 
> 
> This whole conversation on the part of men is about how we would feel if this happened to us and why we would feel this way. That's it. We seem to believe that this may indicate that our SO is not as sexually attracted to us as she is to others. Women have a history of being used for sex. Men have a history of being used for their paycheck.
> 
> 
> 
> So why are women feeling so attacked and put upon when they could easily walk away from a man who felt this way (and most insist they would)? To them, they'd have been done a favor by having a man reveal that they made a mistake being involved with them.
> 
> 
> 
> So what's the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> I propose that the issue is that woman want to do whatever they want and also *want to require men to be okay with whatever choices they make*.
> 
> 
> 
> We all agree on the first. There's some disagreement about the second.



Precisely this.


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----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> One last thought before I go on vacation and, hopefully, forget about this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing going on here is what sex means (in general) to men and women.
> 
> 
> 
> To women, sex apparently means whatever they think it means at the moment they engage in it.
> 
> 
> 
> To men, sex* means* something. Either the woman is sexually attracted to them, the woman loves them, the woman has sex easily, the woman has sex only when she's in a valued relationship, whatever, it means something and the meaning is consistent.
> 
> 
> 
> Men make the error of trying to attribute their meanings to sexual actions of women. It's a mistake but it's understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> Men are not comfortable with a world in which sex means different things to women at different times and with different men.
> 
> 
> 
> So, women don't understand what sex means to men and men don't understand what sex means to women. Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that men don't try to browbeat women into accepting their meaning as the "truth".



I’m already ON vacation and the thread keeps cropping up. Have to get myself banned...


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## 269370

Women who never had men being ‘uncomfortable’, try this next time: deny him sex or limit it to very basic acts and see how soon he will be feeling insecure & asking ‘whiny’ questions. Women who generally don’t deny or have no reasons to withhold don’t seem to understand that it’s not so much to do with the kind of men they are with, but that those men have no reason to feel insecure in the first place.
Of course insecurities can manifest themselves differently but both partners are responsible for a dynamic, not just one side.


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----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> So, you acknowledge that men aren't demanding sex acts of women, aren't commanding sex acts of women and aren't issuing ultimatums to women regarding sex acts.
> 
> You're getting this bent out of shape because you think *our sense of dissatisfaction is unhealthy*?


I am not bent out of shape. 



> You get to decide when we should or should not be satisfied?


No. I get to share my opinion on internet boards like anyone else.



> How about women get to do whatever they want and *men* get to decide if they're satisfied or not.


Of course they can and will. And they will continue to struggle with sex in their marriages.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not bent out of shape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I get to share my opinion on internet boards like anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they can and will. And they will continue to struggle with sex in their marriages.




What would you suggest for those men? Or for those marriages? We heard all the criticism but what about some practical suggestions?


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## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think @inmyprime gets to be the final arbiter of what he means.
> 
> 
> 
> In your favor is that it was pretty confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that I assumed he was communicating in an unclear way and you thought he was saying something that, having read hundreds of his past posts, you had good reason to believe didn't actually mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote ‘not THAT important’, and not ‘AS important’. The whole paragraph implies that the premise - where a woman would withhold an NSA BJ for the fear that she wouldn’t be getting an orgasm in return - seemed unrealistic. Hence the remark that the orgasm can’t be THAT important for her to do something so childish. Men are on average more eager to give women an orgasm than receiving it (at least I always felt that way).
> 
> It’s clear if you read the whole paragraph but the meaning changes if you just quote that one sentence. I was NOT implying that a man giving a woman an orgasm is less important than the woman giving a guy an orgasm which would be a ridiculous thing to say. I’m not sure how to explain it more clearly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So now you are saving it's CHILDISH for a woman to withhold a NSA blow job in fear that she won't be getting one in return?

You need to broaden your perspective about some very real sexual dynamics that occur in the world. In some relationships it' not "childish" fear it's truth. Perhaps read the sex starved wives thread and other threads of woman who are sex (and orgasm) deprived by their male partners who are sexually selfish and lazy. Women who consistently give oral but the guy won't do that for her. Withholding. No foreplay. Sex that's completely over in three minutes after he alone gets off with no attention paid to her. It happens.

If a relationship starts trending towards an unbalanced dynamic in which he's the one getting an orgasm every time and she's not-- rarely or never-- because he's not providing any sexual attention to her you can bet your ass a NSA blow job is the last thing she's going to want to do. Where's her NSA oral? Never happened!


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> If we're still looking for anything from the women here, it would be an acknowledgement of why we might feel that way even though women here don't believe we should.
> 
> 
> 
> And we'd rather have our feelings about this not be credited to "entitlement", "insecurity" or "fragile male egos".
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't think any men here are actually expecting to get any of that




Well the women here don’t owe us an acknowledgement or explanation; they are not in relationships where this happens. As far as sex is concerned, they are willing and able as far as their current relationships are concerned. It’s just not clear why they are replying on behalf of those other women, pointing out how whiny and entitled the men are even though they have not been in those situations.


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----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> So now you are saving it's CHILDISH for a woman to withhold a NSA blow job in fear that she won't be getting one in return?
> 
> You need to broaden your perspective about some very real sexual dynamics that occur in the world. In some relationships it' not "childish" fear it's truth. Perhaps read the sex starved wives thread and other threads of woman who are sex (and orgasm) deprived by their male partners who are sexually selfish and lazy. Women who consistently give oral but the guy won't do that for her. Withholding. No foreplay. Sex that's completely over in three minutes after he alone gets off with no attention paid to her. It happens.
> 
> If a relationship starts trending towards an unbalanced dynamic in which he's the one getting an orgasm every time and she's not-- rarely or never-- because he's not providing any sexual attention to her you can bet your ass a NSA blow job is the last thing she's going to want to do. Where's her NSA oral? Never happened!



Yes of course it happens - and it’s very debilitating when that happens - but it’s not the norm.
The sex starved wife thread, though very useful and important, is surprisingly more quiet than I expected it to be. Has anyone counted how many threads there are for men complaining about lack of sex versus women complaining about lack of sex?

If a woman withholds a BJ just because she fears she might not be getting an orgasm in return: yes, it’s childish. Why would she assume that the guy will be that selfish in the first place?
If a guy is that selfish you don’t withhold the BJ. You dump him if communication about this issue fails and he doesn’t change his attitude. 


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## 269370

Livvie said:


> So now you are saving it's CHILDISH for a woman to withhold a NSA blow job in fear that she won't be getting one in return?
> 
> You need to broaden your perspective about some very real sexual dynamics that occur in the world. In some relationships it' not "childish" fear it's truth. Perhaps read the sex starved wives thread and other threads of woman who are sex (and orgasm) deprived by their male partners who are sexually selfish and lazy. Women who consistently give oral but the guy won't do that for her. Withholding. No foreplay. Sex that's completely over in three minutes after he alone gets off with no attention paid to her. It happens.
> 
> If a relationship starts trending towards an unbalanced dynamic in which he's the one getting an orgasm every time and she's not-- rarely or never-- because he's not providing any sexual attention to her you can bet your ass a NSA blow job is the last thing she's going to want to do. Where's her NSA oral? Never happened!



Yes of course it happens - and it’s very debilitating when that happens - but it’s not the norm.
The sex starved wife thread, though very useful and important, is surprisingly more quiet than I expected it to be. Has anyone counted how many threads there are for men complaining about lack of sex versus women complaining about lack of sex?
That’s not to say men don’t mistreat women in other ways - they do - but not giving head to a woman is just not the most typical one.

If a woman withholds a BJ just because she fears she might not be getting an orgasm in return: yes, it’s childish and I was only saying that it is an unrealistic premise. Why would she assume that the guy will be that selfish in the first place?
If a guy is that selfish you don’t withhold the BJ. You dump him if communication about this issue fails and he doesn’t change his attitude. 


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----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> So now you are saving it's CHILDISH for a woman to withhold a NSA blow job in fear that she won't be getting one in return?
> 
> You need to broaden your perspective about some very real sexual dynamics that occur in the world. In some relationships it' not "childish" fear it's truth. Perhaps read the sex starved wives thread and other threads of woman who are sex (and orgasm) deprived by their male partners who are sexually selfish and lazy. Women who consistently give oral but the guy won't do that for her. Withholding. No foreplay. Sex that's completely over in three minutes after he alone gets off with no attention paid to her. It happens.
> 
> If a relationship starts trending towards an unbalanced dynamic in which he's the one getting an orgasm every time and she's not-- rarely or never-- because he's not providing any sexual attention to her you can bet your ass a NSA blow job is the last thing she's going to want to do. Where's her NSA oral? Never happened!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes of course it happens - and it’s very debilitating when that happens - but it’s not the norm.
> The sex starved wife thread, though very useful and important, is surprisingly more quiet than I expected it to be. Has anyone counted how many threads there are for men complaining about lack of sex versus women complaining about lack of sex?
> That’s not to say men don’t mistreat women in other ways - they do - but not giving head to a woman is just not the most typical one.
> 
> If a woman withholds a BJ just because she fears she might not be getting an orgasm in return: yes, it’s childish and I was only saying that it is an unrealistic premise. Why would she assume that the guy will be that selfish in the first place?
> If a guy is that selfish you don’t withhold the BJ. You dump him if communication about this issue fails and he doesn’t change his attitude.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I just pointed out to you that is not an unrealistic premise, in some relationships that the guy IS that selfish. She doesn't ASSUME the guy is that selfish, the guy IS that selfish.

Please read what you just conveyed: you said you don't withhold a one sided oral experience for a man, you dump him if the one sided sexual dynamic continues after communication to him about it doesn't produce a change.

WOW okay, you have just solved every sexual relationship problem for men too. No need for this forum to even exist... because no problem needs to occur for very long. Once a negative dynamic exists, communicate your issue then dump (divorce) the person if it doesn't change. 

If everyone is communicating, then either problem solved OR divorcing then what's there to talk about?

By your advice, no one will ever have to experience a frustrating sexual dynamic for very long.

If a woman should not withhold one sided blow jobs ( just dump him if having a talk about it doesn't solve it) then men shouldn't withhold acts of service/ meeting all of the needs of their partner in an effort to change a negative sexual dynamic, either. 

Have your ever labelled what men do to try to change or deal with a bad sexual marriage dynamic childish the same way you have labelled withholding a blow job in a one sided sexual dynamic?


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Well the women here don’t owe us an acknowledgement or explanation; they are not in relationships where this happens. As far as sex is concerned, they are willing and able as far as their current relationships are concerned. It’s just not clear why they are replying on behalf of those other women, pointing out how whiny and entitled the men are even though they have not been in those situations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For myself, I am not replying on behalf of other women. They are not posting here. I imagine that they are not happy with the situation either, but I don't know. You don't see that side of the relationship posted on here very much, if at all. Maybe they are happy as larks. Or maybe they are *****ing to their friends about lack of romance. Who even knows? 

I have shared over the this thread and many others the experience I have had being with people whose attitudes were destructive to my feeling of safety, love, compassion and just straight up hotness that comes together to make a wonderful sex life. Do with that what you want. I find many men on this board don't WANT to hear that sort of thing. They want to hear that they are RIGHT and that their wife SHOULD do x, y, z. I don't really know why. What they hell is a person supposed to do with that?


----------



## 269370

Livvie said:


> I just pointed out to you that is not an unrealistic premise, in some relationships that the guy IS that selfish. She doesn't ASSUME the guy is that selfish, the guy IS that selfish.
> 
> Please read what you just conveyed: you said you don't withhold a one sided oral experience for a man, you dump him if the one sided sexual dynamic continues after communication to him about it doesn't produce a change.
> 
> WOW okay, you have just solved every sexual relationship problem for men too. No need for this forum to even exist... because no problem needs to occur for very long. Once a negative dynamic exists, communicate your issue then dump (divorce) the person if it doesn't change.
> 
> If everyone is communicating, then either problem solved OR divorcing then what's there to talk about?
> 
> By your advice, no one will ever have to experience a frustrating sexual dynamic for very long.
> 
> If a woman should not withhold one sided blow jobs ( just dump him if having a talk about it doesn't solve it) then men shouldn't withhold acts of service/ meeting all of the needs of their partner in an effort to change a negative sexual dynamic, either.
> 
> Have your ever labelled what men do to try to change or deal with a bad sexual marriage dynamic childish the same way you have labelled withholding a blow job in a one sided sexual dynamic?




You are strawmanning me every time Livvie. I will go and practice my (communicative) oral skills on my wife and come back when I’m batter at it 


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## oldtruck

As people age physical limitations slowly appear. Eventually things that were
easily done went to harder to now can't do anymore.

Trauma going through life changes people and what they are willing to do.


The following two statements are not a discussion between two people.
Rather drawing a line in the sand. Refusing to find a middle ground.

A wife only say no, I don't care that I did all that wild porn star sex before
you.

The husband saying you had all that porn star sex before me shows that 
you are able to do those things with me.

For it seems ok for a wife to flat out issue her "no's" without taking
into the fact that her husband came into the marriage with a lot less
sexual experience than his wife is never considered by the wife when she
says no to everything.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the husband said no all the time.
How is the wife to learn and explore about sex?

People ignore the phrases and their implications.
You cannot put the genie back in the bottle and you opened Pandora's box.


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## NobodySpecial

oldtruck said:


> A wife only say no, I don't care that I did all that wild porn star sex before
> you.


Who said that?
[/QUOTE]


----------



## CharlieParker

Tiggy! said:


> Pretty much what AnnieAsh said post #9 on this thread.


OMG, this thread is old. Hi @AnnieAsh, miss you!!!

More on topic, and I’ve told her this (clumsily), I don’t want her to do anything she doesn’t want to do.


----------



## Livvie

oldtruck said:


> As people age physical limitations slowly appear. Eventually things that were
> easily done went to harder to now can't do anymore.
> 
> Trauma going through life changes people and what they are willing to do.
> 
> 
> The following two statements are not a discussion between two people.
> Rather drawing a line in the sand. Refusing to find a middle ground.
> 
> A wife only say no, I don't care that I did all that wild porn star sex before
> you.
> 
> The husband saying you had all that porn star sex before me shows that
> you are able to do those things with me.
> 
> For it seems ok for a wife to flat out issue her "no's" without taking
> into the fact that her husband came into the marriage with a lot less
> sexual experience than his wife is never considered by the wife when she
> says no to everything.
> 
> If the shoe was on the other foot and the husband said no all the time.
> How is the wife to learn and explore about sex?
> 
> People ignore the phrases and their implications.
> You cannot put the genie back in the bottle and you opened Pandora's box.


You can learn about and explore sex even if you don't "get" to do certain things with your current partner. If doing these certain things is so important to you, should you not discuss them *before getting married*? People discuss kids, finances, etc before they get married. If there are sex acts one requires to learn and grow, discuss before making a permanent and life commitment

I have a friend who in her early twenties had a boyfriend with whom she drove naked with in his truck through town. 

She's married now. Has a child. If her husband found about that past experience of hers and now is of the mindset hey, you did it with him, now I'm upset if you don't do it with me.... after never having it be a thing or condition of a continuing relationship with her previously, that's unfair. She is decades older. Has more sense, and more respect for herself. Has a child. Doesn't want to risk getting seen by people in the community she has to work with our the child goes to school with.

What we did decades ago isn't what we always want to do presently and to be held in the present to a standard of past risk, stupidity, and different values isn't fair.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Isn’t that because you have no reason to assume a negative? Perhaps other men have a reason to feel insecure about whatever it is they are feeling insecure about.
> I can sympathise because I know from my experience that pretty much any problem or insecurity can be immediately eliminated through enthusiastic sex, even if that problem was entirely unrelated to sex; again I know it sounds primitive and I often am amazed myself how easy it is to feel better about yourself and the world when your wife wants and supports you.
> If you feel that your wife doesn’t want you that much, is grossed out by touching you down there or whatever and then you find out she was a completely different person back then (this is all from the OP, not speculation), why is it not understandable to have insecurities about it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I understand that having insecurities may drive one to see the worst. But that doesn't mean the worst is the truth and that you should act accordingly. If you behave in accordance with your insecurities rather than her actual motives, you may destroy a potentially healthy relationship. Worse, the loss will give you a false positive on her motives, reinforce your insecurities even further, and doom you chances even more in future relationships.

You having insecurities is about you, not your wife. Whatever reason you have for feeling insecure from your past should not be projected on your wife. Now if your current wife has given you clear and current reason to think something's amiss, then that's not an insecurity talking, but rather valid evidence.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I understand that having insecurities may drive one to see the worst. But that doesn't mean the worst is the truth and that you should act accordingly. If you behave in accordance with your insecurities rather than her actual motives, you may destroy a potentially healthy relationship. Worse, the loss will give you a false positive on her motives, reinforce your insecurities even further, and doom you chances even more in future relationships.
> 
> You having insecurities is about you, not your wife. Whatever reason you have for feeling insecure from your past should not be projected on your wife. Now if your current wife has given you clear and current reason to think something's amiss, then that's not an insecurity talking, but rather valid evidence.


This is a VERY healthy attitude that is in the best interest of the person with the insecurities. (Ask me how I know.) It has the greatest chance of success at the problem at hand as well as provided positive growth regardless of success for future happiness.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> I have shared over the this thread and many others the experience I have had being with people whose attitudes were destructive to my feeling of safety, love, compassion and just straight up hotness that comes together to make a wonderful sex life. Do with that what you want. I find many men on this board don't WANT to hear that sort of thing. They want to hear that they are RIGHT and that their wife SHOULD do x, y, z. I don't really know why. What they hell is a person supposed to do with that?


This is all I’ve concluded also. They want us to “admit” that it is wrong for women to “withhold” and to validate their entitlement of whatever she did previously.

Ok guys - I’ll speak on behalf of the hypothetical women. Yes, she was hotter for Bob than you. She has no excuses and doesn’t feel she needs any. She just plain was hot for him and she did things with him freely and openly that she won’t do with you because you don’t turn her on enough. She also thinks you are a chump who won’t dump her over it.

My solution to the hypothetical man? Find out why you partnered up with a woman who isn’t into you. The answer lies within yourself, not her. Once you find the answer, find a partner who is truly into you and live happily ever after.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> This is all I’ve concluded also. They want us to “admit” that it is wrong for women to “withhold” and to validate their entitlement of whatever she did previously.
> 
> Ok guys - I’ll speak on behalf of the hypothetical women. Yes, she was hotter for Bob than you. She has no excuses and doesn’t feel she needs any. She just plain was hot for him and she did things with him freely and openly that she won’t do with you because you don’t turn her on enough. She also thinks you are a chump who won’t dump her over it.
> 
> My solution to the hypothetical man? Find out why you partnered up with a woman who isn’t into you. The answer lies within yourself, not her. Once you find the answer, find a partner who is truly into you and live happily ever after.


I said something similar once. Holy lightening storm, batman. I would qualify that the USEFUL and ACTIONABLE answer lies with you. The other answers like she is just a useless pos woman who wants a beta provider may feel good, and may even be true (though I would not categorize her as a useless pos), but they won't help the hypothetical poster.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I understand that having insecurities may drive one to see the worst. But that doesn't mean the worst is the truth and that you should act accordingly. If you behave in accordance with your insecurities rather than her actual motives, you may destroy a potentially healthy relationship. Worse, the loss will give you a false positive on her motives, reinforce your insecurities even further, and doom you chances even more in future relationships.
> 
> You having insecurities is about you, not your wife. Whatever reason you have for feeling insecure from your past should not be projected on your wife. Now if your current wife has given you clear and current reason to think something's amiss, then that's not an insecurity talking, but rather valid evidence.


Can you help me understand why some of the men here don’t even want to call it insecurity? 

As I have said, when partners of mine have been vulnerable and authentic with me and revealed their insecurities, no matter what it was about, I was then compassionate and wanted to do whatever I could to soothe their insecurity and help them see that what they were insecure about was unfounded with me. This of course requires that they did not project their insecurities as if they lay within me or that I caused them.

An example would be, a partner expresses that a certain interaction I had with another male made him feel uneasy or possessive. I then soothe him and assure him with my words and actions that there’s nothing going on here and I’m all his. 

If he instead barked at me accusing me of screwing around or of things I don’t feel or didn’t do, I’d tell him that’s on him to deal with because I’m not going to respond to false accusations. 

His real truth is that he felt possessive and that doesn’t bother me at all, in fact I want him to express to me when he feels that way. I like it. But I’m not going to like it if he instead expresses that I’m guilty of anything I’m not.

In the same example with a twist, if I was caught in the corner behind the drapes secretly talking to some guy at the company party while my partner and the guys wife were getting drinks, that would be evidence of actual wrong doing on my part and I’d expect my partner to go ahead and respond to what he was seeing. At that point, as you said, it would not be insecurity speaking and you’d be speaking your truth to say “wtf are you doing talking to that other guy secretly?”


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you help me understand why some of the men here don’t even want to call it insecurity?
> 
> As I have said, when partners of mine have been vulnerable and authentic with me and revealed their insecurities, no matter what it was about, I was then compassionate and wanted to do whatever I could to soothe their insecurity and help them see that what they were insecure about was unfounded with me. This of course requires that they did not project their insecurities as if they lay within me or that I caused them.
> 
> An example would be, a partner expresses that a certain interaction I had with another male made him feel uneasy or possessive. I then soothe him and assure him with my words and actions that there’s nothing going on here and I’m all his.
> 
> If he instead barked at me accusing me of screwing around or of things I don’t feel or didn’t do, I’d tell him that’s on him to deal with because I’m not going to respond to false accusations.
> 
> His real truth is that he felt possessive and that doesn’t bother me at all, in fact I want him to express to me when he feels that way. I like it. But I’m not going to like it if he instead expresses that I’m guilty of anything I’m not.
> 
> In the same example with a twist, if I was caught in the corner behind the drapes secretly talking to some guy at the company party while my partner and the guys wife were getting drinks, that would be evidence of actual wrong doing on my part and I’d expect my partner to go ahead and respond to what he was seeing. At that point, as you said, it would not be insecurity speaking and you’d be speaking your truth to say “wtf are you doing talking to that other guy secretly?”


I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm reading it correctly, all I can offer is that men are conditioned to hide, cover up, indeed never even acknowledge that they might have insecurities.... even to themselves. They are driven to rationalize external forces to be the cause rather than any internal insecurities. After all, that would be a sign of weakness. Men don't like acknowledging any kind of weakness. So they must call it something else, and in a case like this, that means manufacturing what they can see as a legitimate reason for their feelings.... which correspondingly puts the onus on their partner, rather than themselves, to resolve.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> This is all I’ve concluded also. They want us to “admit” that it is wrong for women to “withhold” and to validate their entitlement of whatever she did previously.
> 
> Ok guys - I’ll speak on behalf of the hypothetical women. Yes, she was hotter for Bob than you. She has no excuses and doesn’t feel she needs any. She just plain was hot for him and she did things with him freely and openly that she won’t do with you because you don’t turn her on enough. She also thinks you are a chump who won’t dump her over it.
> 
> My solution to the hypothetical man? Find out why you partnered up with a woman who isn’t into you. The answer lies within yourself, not her. Once you find the answer, find a partner who is truly into you and live happily ever after.


This is the acknowkedgement than many have been looking for. That yes, the things one does, and the enthusiasm with which one does them is indeed an indicator of how sexually attracted someone is to another. That it is an indication that a person was more sexually attracted to someone they chose not to marry.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm reading it correctly, all I can offer is that men are conditioned to hide, cover up, indeed never even acknowledge that they might have insecurities.... even to themselves. They are driven to rationalize external forces to be the cause rather than any internal insecurities. After all, that would be a sign of weakness. Men don't like acknowledging any kind of weakness. So they must call it something else, and in a case like this, that means manufacturing what they can see as a legitimate reason for their feelings.... which correspondingly puts the onus on their partner, rather than themselves, to resolve.


This is sad and doesn’t allow men to be authentic. I understand that this has been drilled in to a lot of men.

One thing I can offer, is that in previous times when a partner has been authentic about what amounted to insecurity, there are ways they have said it that don’t make them sound like they are offering their head on a chopping block. So when I say it would be important to me that he express himself authentically, I don’t mean I expect him to say “I feel weak and insecure”.

It isn’t those specific words that make his message authentic. He can word it in a way that just expresses his displeasure while acknowledging it is within himself (not projecting blame). Really it can be as simple as “it made me feel bad when X happened”. 

Because I would know what X was, I’m then able to infer that he felt insecure (which I don’t see as weak) or possessive (also isn’t weak) or even jealous (normal emotion, not weak). The words he uses and the way he phrases them will tell me what he is really saying and I’m sympathetic to his emotions because he’s not laying them at my feet, he’s just expressing himself.

My point is that “you did it for Bob but not me, I feel cheated” does sound weak. It sounds entitled (also weak). Depending on the tone it could also sound threatening (weak) or straight up ridiculous (more weak).


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> This is the acknowkedgement than many have been looking for. That yes, the things one does, and the enthusiasm with which one does them is indeed an indicator of how sexually attracted someone is to another. That it is an indication that a person was more sexually attracted to someone they chose not to marry.


No sam. I was only talking about the hypothetical woman I created. I decided that she just didn’t want her current guy as much as she wanted Bob and that she actually thinks current guy is a chump.

I created her and in her case, it is absolutely true she was hotter for Bob.

Then I laid out for the hypothetical man, who I also created, that his only path out of this is to find out why he partnered with a woman who isn’t into him.

Now, if you want me to make another hypothetical woman who has another history and truth, I can do that and then create the hypothetical man’s path forward. But if I do that, then there will be only my decision on what either of them think or feel.

And then I could create 15 or 20 other hypothetical men and women and scenarios. Many of them would show that something sexual she did previously was NOT an indication of how sexually attracted she was to Bob or current guy.

You quoted my one hypothetical. She and he do not represent all other hypothetical possibilities.

The reason I picked that one hypothetical and presented it that way is because I truly believe any man in the scenario I described is there because of something within himself, not in her.


----------



## ConanHub

There is a sometimes truth that a woman might refuse certain behaviors, sex acts included, to a partner she isn't into as much as a past partner.

I broke up with an amazing woman once, I was an a hole, and she made a broken hearted decision to have sex with someone during our separation.

We got together about a month later to talk.

She had adopted several of my suggestions about her style and weight, she gained weight at my suggestion and looked fantastic!

She also confessed to having sex with a mutual acquaintance. I had left her for a belly dancer so she did nothing wrong.

She had opened her heart and hurt to this guy over my hurtful breakup. He took advantage and had sex with her and during their short relationship, he asked about the sex she had with me.

She told him about it and he wanted to do some of the same sex acts we did. She refused and left him soon after she started revealing our history to him.

She felt it was important to deny him some of the intimacy she eagerly had with me and equally important that I understood it.

She was far more into me and that was the reason.

These situations do occur but, in all honesty, I have little sympathy for the men who want every act a previous partner had. I can empathize with those men, to an extent, but I have never worried about my partners histories, only our future.

If a man wants passion and wonderfully hot and uninhibited sex with his mate, he needs to be a damn man and bring her to those heights.

If you have a partner that refuses to ignite no matter what you do? Get off the train. Regardless of gender, get off the train. It happens to most everyone at some point and there are other partners better suited, ready and willing to rock your world.

Looking in the past can be helpful for understanding and growth but healthy people are busy blazing new trails and causing the past to fade in the heart, if not memory.

I will always remember the belly dancer. We had some of the most world shaking sex and she was an awful excuse for a person.

I don't have feelings for her other than I hope she grew and is doing well.

I still feel a twinge of pain over how I treated the wonderful girl but I have much more developed and stronger feelings for Mrs. Conan.

We both have explored and done more sexually as partners than with anyone before.

I climaxed twice, very intensely, and without withdrawing while screwing the belly dancer senseless. It seemed we were intensely sexually compatible.

Mrs. Conan wished I could climax twice like that for her but I have never been able to repeat it.

My love for my wife and the intensity of my feelings for her aren't even in the same universe 🌌 as my feelings for the dancer but I have never been able to perform that specific sexual sequence with anyone since.

I have had much hotter sex, multitudes of positions, much harder, black out level climaxes and far more tender love making with my wife.

Move forward guys, life is good if you choose it to be. If your wife loves you, feels safe, sexy and cherished, she will give you what she has and maybe even try something new.

Insecurities suck to deal with from both genders. Love and confidence are sexy.


----------



## 269370

It all comes back to form. The feeling is the same (insecurity, and I have no problem calling it what it is) but the way different men deal with it and express it, will be different.
Also bear in mind that someone on a relationship forum may express their insecurity (or even desperation) very differently than they would to their partner. 
Actually what I think we often hear on TAM is not so much insecurity but desperation.

Say if I wanted my wife to pay me more attention or whatever, while I may think to myself ‘why isn’t she paying me more attention?’ and possibly word it like this on the forum, I would never actually say this out loud to her. In fact I would probably not say anything at all and just take her somewhere or find a way for us to be alone and more focused on each other. Which is the ‘authentic’ me? If you drill deep down, there isn’t such a thing as the authentic me: it is whatever we allow ourselves to feel and how we act on our feelings.

Of course you need a partner who will ‘allow’ you to do these things and take the initiative.
You just can’t make any generalisations; so many marriages are in such different states and carry different baggage that an outsider is just not privy of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> There is a sometimes truth that a woman might refuse certain behaviors, sex acts included, to a partner she isn't into as much as a past partner.
> 
> 
> 
> I broke up with an amazing woman once, I was an a hole, and she made a broken hearted decision to have sex with someone during our separation.
> 
> 
> 
> We got together about a month later to talk.
> 
> 
> 
> She had adopted several of my suggestions about her style and weight, she gained weight at my suggestion and looked fantastic!
> 
> 
> 
> She also confessed to having sex with a mutual acquaintance. I had left her for a belly dancer so she did nothing wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> She had opened her heart and hurt to this guy over my hurtful breakup. He took advantage and had sex with her and during their short relationship, he asked about the sex she had with me.
> 
> 
> 
> She told him about it and he wanted to do some of the same sex acts we did. She refused and left him soon after she started revealing our history to him.
> 
> 
> 
> She felt it was important to deny him some of the intimacy she eagerly had with me and equally important that I understood it.
> 
> 
> 
> She was far more into me and that was the reason.
> 
> 
> 
> These situations do occur but, in all honesty, I have little sympathy for the men who want every act a previous partner had. I can empathize with those men, to an extent, but I have never worried about my partners histories, only our future.
> 
> 
> 
> If a man wants passion and wonderfully hot and uninhibited sex with his mate, he needs to be a damn man and bring her to those heights.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a partner that refuses to ignite no matter what you do? Get off the train. Regardless of gender, get off the train. It happens to most everyone at some point and there are other partners better suited, ready and willing to rock your world.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking in the past can be helpful for understanding and growth but healthy people are busy blazing new trails and causing the past to fade in the heart, if not memory.
> 
> 
> 
> I will always remember the belly dancer. We had some of the most world shaking sex and she was an awful excuse for a person.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have feelings for her other than I hope she grew and is doing well.
> 
> 
> 
> I still feel a twinge of pain over how I treated the wonderful girl but I have much more developed and stronger feelings for Mrs. Conan.
> 
> 
> 
> We both have explored and done more sexually as partners than with anyone before.
> 
> 
> 
> I climaxed twice, very intensely, and without withdrawing while screwing the belly dancer senseless. It seemed we were intensely sexually compatible.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Conan wished I could climax twice like that for her but I have never been able to repeat it.
> 
> 
> 
> My love for my wife and the intensity of my feelings for her aren't even in the same universe  as my feelings for the dancer but I have never been able to perform that specific sexual sequence with anyone since.
> 
> 
> 
> I have had much hotter sex, multitudes of positions, much harder, black out level climaxes and far more tender love making with my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> Move forward guys, life is good if you choose it to be. If your wife loves you, feels safe, sexy and cherished, she will give you what she has and maybe even try something new.
> 
> 
> 
> Insecurities suck to deal with from both genders. Love and confidence are sexy.



 Great story 🤦🏼*♂ 

Did you tell your wife the truth that you were hotter for the belly dancer than her then?


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## 269370

samyeagar said:


> This is the acknowkedgement than many have been looking for. That yes, the things one does, and the enthusiasm with which one does them is indeed an indicator of how sexually attracted someone is to another. That it is an indication that a person was more sexually attracted to someone they chose not to marry.




It’s completely pointless to ask for acknowledgements and validations from strangers; the more you ask the less you will get.

The problem is that in men’s hypothetical stories, it’s the woman who causes and is expected to take care of men’s insecurities and in women’s hypothetical stories, it’s always the man who is the whiny, insecure chump who causes and brings all the ills on himself.

Best to just stick with the real stories (of which there are plenty, including in this thread).


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm reading it correctly, all I can offer is that men are conditioned to hide, cover up, indeed never even acknowledge that they might have insecurities.... even to themselves. They are driven to rationalize external forces to be the cause rather than any internal insecurities. After all, that would be a sign of weakness. Men don't like acknowledging any kind of weakness. So they must call it something else, and in a case like this, that means manufacturing what they can see as a legitimate reason for their feelings.... which correspondingly puts the onus on their partner, rather than themselves, to resolve.




Some do, some don’t. For some, humility is the virtue that helps you draw strength and learn from.
Just like some insecurities are justified and some are imagined.

On a tangent: some of the biggest reasons (apart from cheating etc) why marriages collapse is because nobody wants to take the blame, especially those very ‘secure’ people.

Sometimes you have to be the bigger person. Sometimes you shouldn’t be a doormat. Depends on each situation.


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## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Great story 🤦🏼*♂
> 
> Did you tell your wife the truth that you were hotter for the belly dancer than her then?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She knows everything. You're probably using some tongue in cheek but I have always been way hotter for Mrs. Conan. I could go days without having sex with the dancer but I had sex with my wife approximately 30 times the week I met her. I literally couldn't keep my hands off of her!


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> She knows everything. You're probably using some tongue in cheek but I have always been way hotter for Mrs. Conan. I could go days without having sex with the dancer but I had sex with my wife approximately 30 times the week I met her. I literally couldn't keep my hands off of her!


So your overall words and actions are a direct reflection and expression of your being hotter for Mrs. Conan, and I bet she doesn't spend much time wondering about specifics.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> I climaxed twice, very intensely, and without withdrawing while screwing the belly dancer senseless. It seemed we were intensely sexually compatible.
> 
> Mrs. Conan wished I could climax twice like that for her but I have never been able to repeat it.
> 
> My love for my wife and the intensity of my feelings for her aren't even in the same universe 🌌 as my feelings for the dancer but I have never been able to perform that specific sexual sequence with anyone since..


This has happened to me with 3 different lovers (in my adult sex life). All 3 of them were new relationships. 2 of them were building intense feelings for me. The other 1 wasn’t, it was a fling and it didnt last long.

When it happened all 3 of them told me that was a rare or a singular occurrence. All 3 told me it was awesome, but none of them said that was the best sex they ever had, or that it happened because I was the hottest chick in the world. 

I attritbuted it to the newness and intensity that the man was feeling in the moment. 

2 of them actually did it twice (within a week of the first time) but after that we entered relationships together and it never happened again. Although the sex I had in those relationships topped those times where he got off twice in a row hundreds of times over, and both of those lovers agreed with that. It was just a cool, spontaneous thing that happened. I suspect it possibly has to do with a subconscious drive to impregnate the new female without needing access to her body again in case you never saw her again. All 3 men said it was just suddenly there, the proper fully aroused state to have another’s orgasm, even though they had literally just had one.

Important to note that the 2 who did it again within a week were both under age 40.

Also, I recall high school boyfriends who did this regularly, so I’m assuming the younger a man is the more likely this is to happen.


----------



## 269370

samyeagar said:


> So your overall words and actions are a direct reflection and expression of your being hotter for Mrs. Conan, and I bet she doesn't spend much time wondering about specifics.




That’s what I was getting at. Because if he wasn’t hotter for Mrs Conan and she somehow felt insecure about never living up to that belly dancer, it would somehow be her fault and she should just deal with it, according to these boards’ standards..? 🤨


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## JustTheWife

Just to speak for myself but when something was painful or humiliating then it feels like you're letting the guy take more of you. I don't understand how someone can do this with random guys and refuse with their husbands. 

I was super promiscuous and I have to live with that but anyway, my husband doesn't really want anything from me so its like i have the opposite problem.


----------



## ConanHub

Yeah FW, I was 19 with the dancer but was with many others that year and met my wife about a year later.

Sex with the dancer was very good however and the session where it happened was the first one. It was also the most intense and best we had in our short relationship.

Our sexual chemistry was just really good even though everything else sucked. I'm not a subscriber to this train of thought but I wonder if there are people with a good genetic match and a mating imperative overrides reason to an extent. I left a very good woman for a very nasty one but the drive to bed each other was very high and the sex did not disappoint. If Trojan didn't put out quality products, I have no doubt that she would have conceived.

I didn't like myself after that relationship and learned to resist that feeling when it happened later, maybe 4 times since.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Yeah FW, I was 19 with the dancer but was with many others that year and met my wife about a year later.
> 
> Sex with the dancer was very good however and the session where it happened was the first one. It was also the most intense and best we had in our short relationship.
> 
> Our sexual chemistry was just really good even though everything else sucked. I'm not a subscriber to this train of thought but I wonder if there are people with a good genetic match and a mating imperative overrides reason to an extent. I left a very good woman for a very nasty one but the drive to bed each other was very high and the sex did not disappoint. If Trojan didn't put out quality products, I have no doubt that she would have conceived.
> 
> I didn't like myself after that relationship and learned to resist that feeling when it happened later, maybe 4 times since.


Right because as it turned out, hot monkey sex didn’t equal strong feelings or more attachment to this woman. Strong chemical attraction caused an extra orgasm, but it didn’t “mean anything” more than strong chemical attraction. By itself, this doesn’t “mean anything” and can be one thing with one woman and something else with another. Context, not hypotheticals will tell you which is which for you.

We have here men saying that our context doesn’t matter to them, and they want what Bob had regardless, due to either a sense of entitlement or their own insecurities.

Having the insecurities isn’t the problem. The trying to attach his own meanings to her prior sex life is not healthy and shows a lack of understanding in the man.

Even if the man knows for sure she loved it with Bob but not him, if he sounds entitled, whiny, controlling, demanding or weird about her previous life, she’s most definitely going to reject his position.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Faithful Wife said:


> Right because as it turned out, hot monkey sex didn’t equal strong feelings or more attachment to this woman. Strong chemical attraction caused an extra orgasm, but it didn’t “mean anything” more than strong chemical attraction. By itself, this doesn’t “mean anything” and can be one thing with one woman and something else with another. Context, not hypotheticals will tell you which is which for you.
> 
> We have here men saying that our context doesn’t matter to them, and they want what Bob had regardless, due to either a sense of entitlement or their own insecurities.
> 
> Having the insecurities isn’t the problem. The trying to attach his own meanings to her prior sex life is not healthy and shows a lack of understanding in the man.
> 
> Even if the man knows for sure she loved it with Bob but not him, if he sounds entitled, whiny, controlling, demanding or weird about her previous life, she’s most definitely going to reject his position.


I think the lack of understanding comes from a the two not being compatible. She may have rocked his world in bed by doing things he wasn't familiar with, hooking him for life, but once the newness wears off, she isn't that much into going further with exploration. She's done what she wanted to try with others. He hasn't and wants to with his wife, while she knows what she likes and doesn't, and even if she liked something before, she really isn't mentally into doing the things she did earlier in life that he is suggesting.


----------



## ConanHub

I'm trying to get an understanding grip on the op.

At first, it seems a mean and shallow situation where a black and white solution would work.

After examining myself however, I can't see ever getting upset about this issue.

Loyalty, dignity, integrity and character are very important to me.

I honestly do not care about a woman's past as long as she is 100% my woman for the future.

I find commitment, fidelity and loyalty to be very attractive, even sexually arousing.

I find reassurance and confidence in my marriage from many areas and sex is pretty low on that list.

She could have had horse hung Adonis / sex god lovers that she did acrobatic feats of aerial intercouse while experiencing earth shattering orgasms that can't be reached again and, while I do strive to please in the bedroom, I would not rank that past nearly as important as her absolute devotion and fidelity to me and our family.

Our sex life would be ours, however, and as long as we were pleasing each other, the past doesn't matter.

I obviously won her heart and I am the one in her life.

I am very sexual and very high drive but aside from enthusiastically having sex, my mate doesn't need to do anymore in that department.

There are far more important aspects to a marriage for me for a woman to measure up in.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is all I’ve concluded also. They want us to “admit” that it is wrong for women to “withhold” and to validate their entitlement of whatever she did previously.
> 
> Ok guys - I’ll speak on behalf of the hypothetical women. Yes, she was hotter for Bob than you. She has no excuses and doesn’t feel she needs any. She just plain was hot for him and she did things with him freely and openly that she won’t do with you because you don’t turn her on enough. She also thinks you are a chump who won’t dump her over it.
> 
> My solution to the hypothetical man? Find out why you partnered up with a woman who isn’t into you. The answer lies within yourself, not her. Once you find the answer, find a partner who is truly into you and live happily ever after.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the acknowkedgement than many have been looking for. That yes, the things one does, and the enthusiasm with which one does them is indeed an indicator of how sexually attracted someone is to another. That it is an indication that a person was more sexually attracted to someone they chose not to marry.
Click to expand...

Dont speak for me.

If I dont do something, it has nothing to do with loving old boyfriend more. It's either because it was unpleasant or because old boyfriend was awful and probably coerced me to do it in the first place.

If my hubby insists on using a scorecard as a love measuring stick....tough. 

We probably won't be married very long if he cant ditch the scorecard and grow up.

Fortunately I dint have to worry about that because, to be blunt, I married a grownup who knows himself.

In case that wasn't clear, I just stated my husband is better than a man with a scorecard who expects his wife to take one for the team.


----------



## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> Dont speak for me.
> 
> If I dont do something, it has nothing to do with loving old boyfriend more. It's either because it was unpleasant or because old boyfriend was awful and probably coerced me to do it in the first place.
> 
> If my hubby insists on using a scorecard as a love measuring stick....tough.
> 
> We probably won't be married very long if he cant ditch the scorecard and grow up.
> 
> Fortunately I dint have to worry about that because, to be blunt, I married a grownup who knows himself.
> 
> In case that wasn't clear, I just stated my husband is better than a man with a scorecard who expects his wife to take one for the team.


If I may, what I read here is that you two sewed your wild oats when young before you met each other. You both were simply interested in someone who would be a faithful companion and you found that in each other. You were both beyond those years of exploration and satisfied by less than hot monkey sex. It's all about lovingkindness and respect for each other's pasts without a desire to discuss anything, because it's water under the bridge and old hat for both of you.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth or suggest you don't have a wonderfully fulfilling sex life.


----------



## 2ntnuf

In my opinion, these men who are not satisfied should look to the single life for their exploration. Once they are done, they can either remarry or continue on in their own lives. They are not compatible with the women they married. They will be unsatisfied all their lives and on their death beds, wish they had tried something different and left her behind. They can still see her when they have children with her. She will be at gatherings of families and possibly friends, because of the children. He can see her and talk with her on a limited basis while finally working and living for himself, rather than to please someone he doesn't nor ever will understand unless and until he gets the life experience she had. Even then, it will be a crap shoot, but there is a better chance. 

After living his life, he won't worry about these things with some woman he wants to take to his grandson or granddaughter's christening or birthday or whatever. He won't care what his ex thinks, nor will he have hatred in his heart for her. He will be more mature and understanding.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> I'm trying to get an understanding grip on the op.
> 
> At first, it seems a mean and shallow situation where a black and white solution would work.
> 
> After examining myself however, I can't see ever getting upset about this issue.
> 
> Loyalty, dignity, integrity and character are very important to me.
> 
> I honestly do not care about a woman's past as long as she is 100% my woman for the future.
> 
> I find commitment, fidelity and loyalty to be very attractive, even sexually arousing.
> 
> I find reassurance and confidence in my marriage from many areas and sex is pretty low on that list.
> 
> She could have had horse hung Adonis / sex god lovers that she did acrobatic feats of aerial intercouse while experiencing earth shattering orgasms that can't be reached again and, while I do strive to please in the bedroom, I would not rank that past nearly as important as her absolute devotion and fidelity to me and our family.
> 
> Our sex life would be ours, however, and as long as we were pleasing each other, the past doesn't matter.
> 
> I obviously won her heart and I am the one in her life.
> 
> I am very sexual and very high drive but aside from enthusiastically having sex, my mate doesn't need to do anymore in that department.
> 
> There are far more important aspects to a marriage for me for a woman to measure up in.


As long as everything is all good in the sex department, pleasing each other enthusiastically, the past isn't really a consideration, right? If so, most of us agree with that whole heartedly, and have said so numerous times.

As I have related, there are plenty of things in my wife's past that we won't ever do for various reasons, but the things we do, and the enthusiasm with which we do them, from the very beginning had left no doubt just how extremely sexually attracted my wife is to me.

If the enthusiastic engagement wasn't there, I would not have gotten all hurt and demanding. I would have simply moved on. As it stands right now, we are long past any kind of bait and switch scenario, so any problems that could happen would be of our own making.


----------



## CharlieParker

ConanHub said:


> Our sex life would be ours, however, and as long as we were *pleasing each other*, the past doesn't matter.
> 
> I obviously won her heart and I am the one in her life.
> 
> I am very sexual and very high drive but aside from *enthusiastically* having sex, my mate doesn't need to do anymore in that department.


The boldest happens for us, so I don’t care about Bob (and my wife had many Bobs). But if that wasn’t the case...

But yes, at the end of the day she chose me.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Dont speak for me.
> 
> If I dont do something, it has nothing to do with loving old boyfriend more. It's either because it was unpleasant or because old boyfriend was awful and probably coerced me to do it in the first place.
> 
> If my hubby insists on using a scorecard as a love measuring stick....tough.
> 
> We probably won't be married very long if he cant ditch the scorecard and grow up.
> 
> Fortunately I dint have to worry about that because, to be blunt, I married a grownup who knows himself.
> 
> In case that wasn't clear, I just stated my husband is better than a man with a scorecard who expects his wife to take one for the team.


We all pretty much agree that someone getting bent out of shape over things that we painful, coerced, degrading, unpleasant can go get bent all by themselves, or as you put it... tough.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Do women choose men or men choose women? I thought men had to go for a woman and then she determined if she wanted to allow him? If that is the case, one man is no better than another, except in social status and income. 

I know that sounds terrible and I'm sorry. I just want to know what others think.


----------



## personofinterest

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dont speak for me.
> 
> If I dont do something, it has nothing to do with loving old boyfriend more. It's either because it was unpleasant or because old boyfriend was awful and probably coerced me to do it in the first place.
> 
> If my hubby insists on using a scorecard as a love measuring stick....tough.
> 
> We probably won't be married very long if he cant ditch the scorecard and grow up.
> 
> Fortunately I dint have to worry about that because, to be blunt, I married a grownup who knows himself.
> 
> In case that wasn't clear, I just stated my husband is better than a man with a scorecard who expects his wife to take one for the team.
> 
> 
> 
> If I may, what I read here is that you two sewed your wild oats when young before you met each other. You both were simply interested in someone who would be a faithful companion and you found that in each other. You were both beyond those years of exploration and satisfied by less than hot monkey sex. It's all about lovingkindness and respect for each other's pasts without a desire to discuss anything, because it's water under the bridge and old hat for both of you.
> 
> I don't mean to put words in your mouth or suggest you don't have a wonderfully fulfilling sex life.
Click to expand...

I was a virgin when I married the first time. I had 2 relationships in between my divorce and meeting my current husband.

He had a wife and kids, she cheated. He rebounded into a marriage that was a terrible idea, then he divorced and worked on himself.

Then we got together. So no Hugh Hefner or Debbie Dies Dallas pasts lol.

Bottom line, scorekeeping reduces your partner to a checklist with orifices. Its pathetic.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> I was a virgin when I married the first time. I had 2 relationships in between my divorce and meeting my current husband.
> 
> He had a wife and kids, she cheated. He rebounded into a marriage that was a terrible idea, then he divorced and worked on himself.
> 
> Then we got together. So no Hugh Hefner or Debbie Dies Dallas pants lol.
> 
> Bottom line, scorekeeping reduces your partner to a checklist with orifices. Its pathetic.


Yes, when resentment, imbalance, and disatisfaction set into the relationship, scorekeeping tends to further erode it.

Often things don't start out with scorekeeping though. It starts with one partner feeling as if something is off, usually an imbalance of some sort. Score keeping becomes a method of quantifying the imbalance. By the time it gets to that point, things are usually in really bad shape.

Someone who starts out the relationship with a score keeping mindset really isn't ready for a healthy relationship.


----------



## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> I was a virgin when I married the first time. I had 2 relationships in between my divorce and meeting my current husband.
> 
> He had a wife and kids, she cheated. He rebounded into a marriage that was a terrible idea, then he divorced and worked on himself.
> 
> Then we got together. So no Hugh Hefner or Debbie Dies Dallas pants lol.
> 
> Bottom line, scorekeeping reduces your partner to a checklist with orifices. Its pathetic.


You didn't have to tell me all of that, but thank you for sharing. 

Yes, or it reduces him to a paycheck and status symbol. Both are pathetic.

Edit; Debbie dies Dallas pants? Tie dyed? :laugh: Gave me a tickle reading that. I know. The O is close to the I, so it was a faux pas. It was funny. Maybe she had some killer disease or something?


----------



## personofinterest

I have never thought of a man as a paycheck. I think women like that are shallow gold-diggers.


----------



## samyeagar

People are constantly evaluating and processing information, usually subconsciously, and things that fit, that make sense are usually not reevaluated. It's when things don't fit, that don't make sense, that people try and make it fit, make sense out of it. The whole one thing is not like the other. 

While I did not seek out the information about my wife's past because I honestly didn't want to know, one benefit of knowing is that I have a point of evaluation to know that everything my wife and I have done, do, the enthusiasm is completely consistant with everything I know about her. It all fits. It all makes sense.


----------



## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> I have never thought of a man as a paycheck. I think women like that are shallow gold-diggers.


Or score keepers looking for a penis maybe? 

I wasn't suggesting you did that.


----------



## personofinterest

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never thought of a man as a paycheck. I think women like that are shallow gold-diggers.
> 
> 
> 
> Or score keepers looking for a penis maybe?
> 
> I wasn't suggesting you did that.
Click to expand...

I understand that females arent your favorite, but THIS thread is about men who want their partners to give them everything they've ever given anyone else.


----------



## farsidejunky

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm reading it correctly, all I can offer is that men are conditioned to hide, cover up, indeed never even acknowledge that they might have insecurities.... even to themselves. They are driven to rationalize external forces to be the cause rather than any internal insecurities. After all, that would be a sign of weakness. Men don't like acknowledging any kind of weakness. So they must call it something else, and in a case like this, that means manufacturing what they can see as a legitimate reason for their feelings.... which correspondingly puts the onus on their partner, rather than themselves, to resolve.


Furthermore, we spent several months debating the rather large prevalence (I know...I know...except here...despite the studies) of women not being willing to empathize with the man that they love, and suddenly there appears to be reasoning behind why this happens.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Great - so we finally all agree. Can we cheers to Bob and go have some enthusiastic sex now? *♂


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## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> I understand that females arent your favorite, but THIS thread is about men who want their partners to give them everything they've ever given anyone else.


Lying females aren't. Promiscuous females aren't. Cheating females aren't. Females who can't say what they mean aren't. Females who do not like be called out for their actions and don't take responsibility aren't. 


Is that all females? If so, you are correct. If not, you are mistaken about me.


----------



## personofinterest

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that females arent your favorite, but THIS thread is about men who want their partners to give them everything they've ever given anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Lying females aren't. Promiscuous females aren't. Cheating females aren't. Females who can't say what they mean aren't. Females who do not like be called out for their actions and don't take responsibility aren't.
> 
> 
> Is that all females? If so, you are correct. If not, you are mistaken about me.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm a data collector. I tend to base my assumptions on the available data. I've never seen a positive post about females. I am sorry I evaluated the available data incorrectly.


----------



## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> I understand that females arent your favorite, but THIS thread is about men who want their partners to give them everything they've ever given anyone else.


Meh, I don't think so. It's about giving them something more than they have been for the work they believe they have put into the relationship. Sex is just the topic on the surface. These wives don't really have the same feelings they did when they were with those other men. Whatever that reason is, they never thought their husband would want any of that and married him. oops. Both the husband and wife are at fault for differing reasons.


----------



## 2ntnuf

personofinterest said:


> Sorry, I'm a data collector. I tend to base my assumptions on the available data. I've never seen a positive post about females. I am sorry I evaluated the available data incorrectly.


I'm not interested in dating anyone here. Why would I compliment them? You know, I thought you were very nice, but now, I'm not sure.


----------



## personofinterest

I'm overly sensitive today. Sorry for going down a rabbit hole.


----------



## oldtruck

Livvie said:


> You can learn about and explore sex even if you don't "get" to do certain things with your current partner. If doing these certain things is so important to you, should you not discuss them *before getting married*? People discuss kids, finances, etc before they get married. If there are sex acts one requires to learn and grow, discuss before making a permanent and life commitment
> 
> I have a friend who in her early twenties had a boyfriend with whom she drove naked with in his truck through town.
> 
> She's married now. Has a child. If her husband found about that past experience of hers and now is of the mindset hey, you did it with him, now I'm upset if you don't do it with me.... after never having it be a thing or condition of a continuing relationship with her previously, that's unfair. She is decades older. Has more sense, and more respect for herself. Has a child. Doesn't want to risk getting seen by people in the community she has to work with our the child goes to school with.
> 
> What we did decades ago isn't what we always want to do presently and to be held in the present to a standard of past risk, stupidity, and different values isn't fair.


This is what is meant that a wife just saying no and the husband just saying you did it with 
others before is also wrong. They need to talk it through between themselves. After the
talk one or both may change their minds.

At 18 who thinks about all the legal and criminal consequences before riding 
naked through town in a truck.

Though what is to stop the wife to re-enact some naked car seat action
with her husband when their car is parked in their garage. Wife we can't
get caught by the police doing that at our age now. Though I will let you
catch me in our car in the garage if you bring our favorite bottle of wine.


----------



## oldtruck

ConanHub said:


> There is a sometimes truth that a woman might refuse certain behaviors, sex acts included, to a partner she isn't into as much as a past partner.
> 
> I broke up with an amazing woman once, I was an a hole, and she made a broken hearted decision to have sex with someone during our separation.
> 
> We got together about a month later to talk.
> 
> She had adopted several of my suggestions about her style and weight, she gained weight at my suggestion and looked fantastic!
> 
> She also confessed to having sex with a mutual acquaintance. I had left her for a belly dancer so she did nothing wrong.
> 
> She had opened her heart and hurt to this guy over my hurtful breakup. He took advantage and had sex with her and during their short relationship, he asked about the sex she had with me.
> 
> She told him about it and he wanted to do some of the same sex acts we did. She refused and left him soon after she started revealing our history to him.
> 
> She felt it was important to deny him some of the intimacy she eagerly had with me and equally important that I understood it.
> 
> She was far more into me and that was the reason.
> 
> These situations do occur but, in all honesty, I have little sympathy for the men who want every act a previous partner had. I can empathize with those men, to an extent, but I have never worried about my partners histories, only our future.
> 
> If a man wants passion and wonderfully hot and uninhibited sex with his mate, he needs to be a damn man and bring her to those heights.
> 
> If you have a partner that refuses to ignite no matter what you do? Get off the train. Regardless of gender, get off the train. It happens to most everyone at some point and there are other partners better suited, ready and willing to rock your world.
> 
> Looking in the past can be helpful for understanding and growth but healthy people are busy blazing new trails and causing the past to fade in the heart, if not memory.
> 
> I will always remember the belly dancer. We had some of the most world shaking sex and she was an awful excuse for a person.
> 
> I don't have feelings for her other than I hope she grew and is doing well.
> 
> I still feel a twinge of pain over how I treated the wonderful girl but I have much more developed and stronger feelings for Mrs. Conan.
> 
> We both have explored and done more sexually as partners than with anyone before.
> 
> I climaxed twice, very intensely, and without withdrawing while screwing the belly dancer senseless. It seemed we were intensely sexually compatible.
> 
> Mrs. Conan wished I could climax twice like that for her but I have never been able to repeat it.
> 
> My love for my wife and the intensity of my feelings for her aren't even in the same universe 🌌 as my feelings for the dancer but I have never been able to perform that specific sexual sequence with anyone since.
> 
> I have had much hotter sex, multitudes of positions, much harder, black out level climaxes and far more tender love making with my wife.
> 
> Move forward guys, life is good if you choose it to be. If your wife loves you, feels safe, sexy and cherished, she will give you what she has and maybe even try something new.
> 
> Insecurities suck to deal with from both genders. Love and confidence are sexy.


A good post but it shows that asking about one's past is best not done. Your wife never have 
to deal with her not being able get the two in row that you had with the other GF.

And it would not reduced the level of sex that you and your wife had.


----------



## ConanHub

oldtruck said:


> A good post but it shows that asking about one's past is best not done. Your wife never have
> to deal with her not being able get the two in row that you had with the other GF.
> 
> And it would not reduced the level of sex that you and your wife had.


The level of intimacy our openness about our past created has been far more rewarding than any angst our histories might have aroused.

Mrs. Conan and I have truly mind blowing sex often. Our open look into each other and our histories, both painful memories and good, have caused a sort of intimate fusion.

Her first husband had a mammoth sized unit and I'm sure, stretched her in ways I never will.

That said, her satisfaction is totally with me.

We believe in full clarity and it has paid off for us well.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Cletus said:


> Any man who gets as an answer to the question "why with him, not me" that amounts to "*I tried it in the past with someone else and hated every g.d. minute of it" *should be satisfied with the answer. People should be allowed to grow, explore their preferences, and not pay a penalty for not being willing to renegotiate every sexual decision with every new lover.
> 
> I tried Brussels sprouts long before I met my wife. I have no interest in trying them again, and I don't care WHAT she's wearing when she serves them.


But that's not the topic of the thread. It's not about trying once, hating it. Or being forced and hating it.

It's about ENTHUSIASTICALLY engaging in something with another that you refuse to your current spouse.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> And that is the point. Then men on this thread with black and white thinking have painted women into an impossible corner. I must not love you if I say no, and if my reason for no has not been vetted, then I can't say no.
> 
> There is also this false dichotomy that a woman will either do everything a man wants, or she's a once a month starfish. Like there is no continuum.
> 
> This is the way debates go when one side cannot just admit that some of their thinking is faulty. The analogies get weirder and weirder, the hypotheticals grow, and everything becomes more either/or.
> 
> My speech/debate teacher would be giving some really bad grades.



And from how it looks to me, YOU'D be getting the bad grades.

NO ONE, has said anything about an all or nothing "everything he want's or she's a starfish". That's a straw man argument. 

There are REAL LIFE examples that occur EVERY DAY. 

Are you honestly asking me to believe that that are NOT women who marry men who they are less sexually attracted to than others because they want things like security, good parenting, stability, etc.? And are you honestly expecting me to believe that the raw sexual feelings a woman has toward a man has NO ROLE in her desire to indulge in wilder sexual behavior with that person?

Obviously, BOTH those situations occur ALL THE TIME. They are not 1 in a million events. Look how many cheaters there are who do things with their affair partner that they wouldn't do with their spouse. TAM is FILLED with real life examples, NOT hypotheticals. Look how many women in just this very thread BRAG that their "sexy husband" makes them feel safe enough to explore things on the edge in the bedroom that they wouldn't do with others, including ex-spouses. So AGAIN, NOT hypothetical.

Since these are REAL situations occur ALL THE TIME, it's NOT unreasonable at all for a man who is refused things that were WILLINGLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY engaged in before to wonder if it's because she doesn't feel the same sexual attraction as she had for the other guy. That's NOT "whiny", "immature", or any of a host of hateful epithets you have used. In fact, in most cases, it's because the woman ISN'T showing how much she desires her husband in every other way. If she did, it would invariably become a non-issue, as it has for the most of the men outside of the OP who have had things taken off the table. In fact, I'd speculate that in most cases, it's because she DOESN'T feel the same raw sexual desire as she did for the former lover. (Again, we are talking about willing, enthusiastic, non-forced behavior which she would still be able to indulge in with no physical, professional*, danger, etc. limitations.) Most of the women who have posted here who have taking things "off the table" are referring to things that they were coerced or less than willing to do, and which is NOT the topic of the thread.

Of all the women posters, only #FaithfulWife seems to be sensitive to the implications any refusal would have for her current partner. And, again, it's BECAUSE she is sensitive to it that I believe that she hasn't run into any other this "you did it for him, why not me?" questioning. Because I suspect she would make her current partner feel so desired by her that such doubts wouldn't enter in their minds.

++++++++++

* an example of a "professional" limitation may be that someone who, in the past as a college kid, indulged in public sex on a neighbor's property may face huge consequences now that she is an attorney and a misdemeanor criminal charge of trespassing and public exhibitionism would have professional implications for her. Basically, I'm saying she is not free to do such behavior for reasons other than her desire for her current partner.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes and it is the only real example we have seen. So we have no example for the men who have the question. And only one example of if a woman had the question. The post I quoted was a man asking so I’m assuming he wanted examples from the mans perspective not the woman’s.


 We DO have an example from a man who has experienced it....THE OP!!

The problem is, he's no longer posting.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> *I don’t think cheating is the same as what someone has done in the past before you even knew them. Sorry this analogy doesn’t work.*
> 
> However, as a separate scenario, of course the BS should be hurt or devastated by their WS screwing someone else! And of course if the WS had wild monkey sex with their AP the BS will likely never get over it. (Though I should point out that some can. Or maybe they only can if it wasn’t wild monkey sex? Or if they just weren’t that into sex themselves anyway?)



Look, the cheating is ONLY used as an example of how a woman's willingness to be sexually wild is an example of the sort of relationship she is in. THAT'S ALL IT HAS BEEN USED FOR AS AN EXAMPLE, AND IT'S TRUE. There is no reason it is not a good example for that purpose.

It's NOT an analogy about the degree of jealousness, hurt, etc. a man should feel.


----------



## Wolfman1968

I shouldnthave said:


> Curious, can you recall what the mood was like during that drive? Had you been flirting with her, caressing her ear, rubbing her inner thigh, telling her how wonderful it is to get away from everything, with her, told her how beautiful she looks in the country light?
> 
> I ask.... Because a theme of this thread is that "she did it for someone else, so why won't she do it for me" - and how that gets internalized by the man, that she must have been more attracted to the other guy.
> 
> For many women, the mood, the lead up, feeling wanted, and lusted after matters.
> 
> I am not in a habit of telling my husband "no" and I readily provide him road head..... But ya know what is way better than him asking me for road head? When he gets me worked up so that I WANT to give him road head, when he gets me sexed up so it's something I really want to do for him without him even asking.
> 
> Maybe it's the way he pulls me in, and presses against me before we get back in the car after stopping for gas. The way he kisses my neck, the way he looks at me with an impassioned lustful gaze.
> 
> Or the way he caresses my cheek as I nap in the passenger seat, and slowly trails down till his fingers are in my panties, and the next thing I know I am cumming....
> 
> I have an animal training back ground, and it may sound condescending, but I find a lot of it carries over to people.
> 
> If you want them to behave in a certain way, you have to make that option appealing, you have to open that door for them to walk through on their own, while making the "wrong" answers less comfortable. You set them up for success by making the "right" answer easy,, and the wrong one less rewarding.
> 
> Then you give them tons of accolades for walking through the right door - positive reinforcement like this builds a bond and confidence.
> 
> Sceneio like this, if someone wants road head, I see building her up, sexing her up, and then telling her how absolutely amazing she is for making the first step in the right direction.



This really just reinforces the same concept though---that a woman's willingness to perform an act is a reflection of their relationship, including the sexual energy part of it. It still goes along with what the majority of the men have been posting.

To put this is perspective....if you were actually denying your husband this act, and he asked, "why did you do it with Bob and not with me", if your answer is, "Bob made the effort to make me WANT to give him 'road head', and you don't".....well, then, that's actually a constructive exchange. 

He would LEARN what he would need to improve upon to get you in the mood to do with him what you did with Bob. 

And, I am assuming that if your husband DID get you in the mood just like Bob did, then this would no longer be "off the table".


----------



## Personal

oldtruck said:


> This is what is meant that a wife just saying no and the husband just saying you did it with
> others before is also wrong. They need to talk it through between themselves. After the
> talk one or both may change their minds.
> 
> At 18 who thinks about all the legal and criminal consequences before riding
> naked through town in a truck.
> 
> Though what is to stop the wife to re-enact some naked car seat action
> with her husband when their car is parked in their garage. Wife we can't
> get caught by the police doing that at our age now. Though I will let you
> catch me in our car in the garage if you bring our favorite bottle of wine.


Men who feel the way you suggest, would do very well to not encourage their wives to reenact their past sexual relations.

Encouraging a woman or worse playing the sulk to get her to relive past sexual escapades, is a great way to bring some fond memories of past partners front and centre in their mind.

Seriously wanting a wife to reenact past sexual events, is as stupid as shooting oneself in the foot because they have stubbed their toe.

Sexual attraction for a man is a tall order, if they want feel compelled to remind their partner/s of past escapades with other men. While keeping score and having their ego invested in getting their partner/s to reenact their past.

Likewise if a man didn't get to sow his wild oats, while his current partner did. They ought to be mindful of the fact, that life isn't fair and that their wife isn't a tool to be used to even an illusory score.

As someone who has had a smorgasbord of plentiful sex through a variety of different types of sexual relationships with different women. I can assure you that the mindset that that you are peddling, is not the best way to get inside of a woman in a kaleidoscope of different ways.

If men finds themselves in a sexual relationship with women who won't do all of that with respect to some sexual act (whatever that is), they would be a fool to presume that they are not getting that, just because their wife isn't sexually attracted to them.

In fact they would do well to, move forward with them by creating their own sexual story as they go along. Rather than competing against illusory mirages from the past.

Generally if men want more sex and greater variety of the same with their sexual partners. They would do well to behave in a manner, that doesn't make them sexually unattractive to their sexual partners.

Ignore what the women here are sharing at your sexual peril.

Though you may not like what they say, make no mistake they are making it pretty clear. That the mindset that precipitated the first post in this discussion, closes legs and doesn't open them.

So if your goal is to close women's legs keep thinking as you do. On the other hand if you're hoping to instead open them, you would do well to change your mind.


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## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> Dont speak for me.
> 
> If I dont do something, it has nothing to do with loving old boyfriend more. It's either because* it was unpleasant or because old boyfriend was awful and probably coerced me to do it in the first place*.



Which are situations explicitly EXCLUDED from this thread.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolfman1968 said:


> We DO have an example from a man who has experienced it....THE OP!!
> 
> The problem is, he's no longer posting.


The other problem is that we only have 1 example in 5 years of debating the topic. If this is so common, where are the other examples?

Clearly, sexless marriages aren’t rare, we have specific examples of those daily. Having had good sex in the beginning that disappeared over time also isn’t rare, we hear that one every day too. 

Where are the many specific cases you refer to? If it’s happening all the time we would hear about it all the time.


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## [email protected]

He thought he was in 3rd. He could have been 4th on down. Anyhow, the wife made it clear that she had "settled" with him, which didn't go over very well. Two women and a couple of me tried to talk with the W, but no one got through to her. She kept saying, "..it's not the same..". And in the end she just couldn't fathom why her H would leave her. She could have kept her marriage for the price of a BJ. Several years later I heard that she would grouse on and on about it to anyone who would listen.


----------



## Laurentium

Personal said:


> Though you may not like what they say, make no mistake they are making it pretty clear. That the mindset that precipitated the first post in this discussion, closes legs and doesn't open them.
> 
> So if your goal is to close women's legs keep thinking as you do. On the other hand if you're hoping to instead open them, you would do well to change your mind.


That's true. But the goal of the men on "that" side of the argument here, I believe, is not to "open legs". 
It is to determine whether their partner is one they want to be with. 
If she is telling him that she really felt more enthusiastic about "Bob" but is still willing to be with him, he may well decide "no". As I did. (I posted my story a while back but I think the herd thundered past). And as Icelander's friend apparently did.


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## Faithful Wife

Laurentium said:


> That's true. But the goal of the men on "that" side of the argument here, I believe, is not to "open legs".
> It is to determine whether their partner is one they want to be with.
> If she is telling him that she really felt more enthusiastic about "Bob" but is still willing to be with him, he may well decide "no". As I did. (I posted my story a while back but I think the herd thundered past). And as Icelander's friend apparently did.


Your story and Icelander’s were good specific examples and both were handled in a way that sounded appropriate. I don’t think there is any woman here who would say you should have stuck around. She’s just not as into you and you know this for sure? Moving on is the best advice.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Her first husband had a mammoth sized unit and I'm sure, stretched her in ways I never will.



Does it bother you? (Or her). 
Maybe that explains your dreams. 



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## In Absentia

wouldn't bother me... :grin2:


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## 269370

In Absentia said:


> wouldn't bother me... :grin2:



There’s a reason the mammoths have died out. Alternatively, just aim lower...


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## In Absentia

inmyprime said:


> There’s a reason the mammoths have died out.


Have they? :surprise:


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## 269370

In Absentia said:


> Have they? :surprise:



Me and you are obviously one of the few last ones standing stretching the crap out of places 


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## In Absentia

inmyprime said:


> Me and you are obviously one of the few last ones standing stretching the crap out of places


:laugh:


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## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Does it bother you? (Or her).
> Maybe that explains your dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She much prefers me and I think it is funny.

He was a big dud in the sack apparently.

The dream you are referencing had her cheating with a guy with a smaller unit.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> She much prefers me and I think it is funny.
> 
> 
> 
> He was a big dud in the sack apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> The dream you are referencing had her cheating with a guy with a smaller unit.



I know. In professional lingo they call it ‘coping mechanism’ 


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## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> I know. In professional lingo they call it ‘coping mechanism’
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting concept but I don't think it applies to that dream. 

She was definitely cheating down.😵


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## personofinterest

I'm sorry, but the ranting, all caps temper tantrums that have occurred since I last posted basically proof my point. And no, I do not for one minute believe this happens all the time period I think relationship Forums have a higher percentage than the rest of societee of maladjusted people who think they're entitle to things, which is why they're on a forum griping about what they don't have in the 1st place.


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## Randy Lafever

I would never have imagined that there were guys out there who truly believed they could only be satisfied in a relationship if they knew their wife found them the most sexually appealing man in the world. And yet, we have 244 pages of just that.

I wonder if it is the way they are raised? To cause them to expect what any objective, normal human being would laugh at. You are not number one, you aren't even close! You might even be last. No shame in that. 

Life isn't a competition, and those who see competition in life are psychologically damaged.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm reading it correctly, all I can offer is that men are conditioned to hide, cover up, indeed never even acknowledge that they might have insecurities.... even to themselves. They are driven to rationalize external forces to be the cause rather than any internal insecurities. After all, that would be a sign of weakness. Men don't like acknowledging any kind of weakness. So they must call it something else, and in a case like this, that means manufacturing what they can see as a legitimate reason for their feelings.... which correspondingly puts the onus on their partner, rather than themselves, to resolve.


This is a very real, very tough nut to crack, though not in any way limited to men in relationships. I think that as a society, we don't do a great job raising small people into thoughtful, resilient, emotionally and mentally healthy people. When our kids are small, we focus on BEHAVIOR above all, not thought processes, healthy responses to emotions... I could go on on this topic forever too. (tee hee). The way many men feel that they have to be strong to the point of misunderstanding what strength is is a very bad travesty. Some people can bust past some of the less awesome consequences of their upbringing. I wish everyone could.


----------



## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> Do women choose men or men choose women? I thought men had to go for a woman and then she determined if she wanted to allow him? If that is the case, one man is no better than another, except in social status and income.
> 
> I know that sounds terrible and I'm sorry. I just want to know what others think.


You know it sounds terrible? You know this, yet you think it is true? It is true AND terrible?


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> The other problem is that we only have 1 example in 5 years of debating the topic. If this is so common, where are the other examples?
> 
> Clearly, sexless marriages aren’t rare, we have specific examples of those daily. Having had good sex in the beginning that disappeared over time also isn’t rare, we hear that one every day too.
> 
> Where are the many specific cases you refer to? If it’s happening all the time we would hear about it all the time.


There's a fair amount about my sexual past that my wife of almost 35 years doesn't know to this day, because she doesn't care to know and I'm not going to force it down her throat, as it were.

Perhaps most women are also sensitive enough to know that this conversation is too fraught with peril to have with most husbands. Perhaps you noticed the frail egos? Of course, a man who doesn't know is a man who can't complain a public forum, but also cannot complain to his wife. It's a victimless crime. The safe bet will always be to keep your damn fool mouth shut.


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## In Absentia

Cletus said:


> There's a fair amount about my sexual past that my wife of almost 35 years doesn't know to this day, because she doesn't care to know and I'm not going to force it down her throat, as it were.


My wife knows everything about my sexual past because I told her everything... and she only had one previous boyfriend and, apparently, he had a very small one... :grin2:


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## Cletus

In Absentia said:


> My wife knows everything about my sexual past because I told her everything... and she only had one previous boyfriend and, apparently, he had a very small one... :grin2:


Presumably you have a sex positive spouse who isn't threatened by your past.

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## In Absentia

Cletus said:


> Presumably you have a sex positive spouse who isn't threatened by your past.


She's never been threatened by my past... and she's been "sex positive" only for the first 10 years of our life together. Lots of negativity after that... :smile2:


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## personofinterest

Inmyprime asked a question on the "sister thread" that got me thinking:

If a woman is an enthusiastic, sex-positive lover who does not deprive her husband, is he more willing to overlook "that one thing" she doesn't want to do? Is this a bigger thing when a woman who won't do X also just isn't into sex in general? In other words, would not getting anal be easier to survive if your wife was really into sex with you on a regular basis otherwise? Or would not taking one for the team and doing anal be an emotional deal-breaker?


----------



## cashcratebob

personofinterest said:


> Inmyprime asked a question on the "sister thread" that got me thinking:
> 
> If a woman is an enthusiastic, sex-positive lover who does not deprive her husband, is he more willing to overlook "that one thing" she doesn't want to do? Is this a bigger thing when a woman who won't do X also just isn't into sex in general? In other words, would not getting anal be easier to survive if your wife was really into sex with you on a regular basis otherwise? Or would not taking one for the team and doing anal be an emotional deal-breaker?


Aside from the original, five year old premise/reason, I certainty DO NOT want to do anything my wife doesn't want to do. It is a real turn-off for me if she isn't at least a little into the act. The same is true for her.


----------



## Married but Happy

personofinterest said:


> ... In other words, would not getting anal be easier to survive if your wife was really into sex with you on a regular basis otherwise? Or would not taking one for the team and doing anal be an emotional deal-breaker?


The important thing to me is that my wife be really into sex with me (and vice versa for her). I don't really care if she did other things with other men in the past. We also talked about the things we liked, the things we didn't, and the things we hadn't tried but might like to try someday, and agreed on what we might do and wouldn't do. Neither of us were interested in anal, but if one of us were, we'd have tried it, at least. Both of us had fantasized about threesomes - eventually, we did try those a number of times, and thoroughly enjoyed it on those few occasions. We both love oral, for example, and if that wasn't going to work for one of us, we probably wouldn't have continued dating. If that changed later without a damn good reason, we might not stay together. (We both had poor, infrequent sex in our major prior relationships, and agreed we'd never again tolerate that situation.)


----------



## 269370

Finally we are getting somewhere...And it only took 5 years.
I honestly don’t think anybody is going to even ASK the question why their wife isn’t doing X with them if she is generally enthusiastic about sex.
That guy is going to end up thinking exactly like ConanHub: that he’s the best lover she ever had and whatever she did with Bob or Alejandro will matter precisely 0. And no whining.

What comes first: chicken or egg?

However an enthusiastic sex wife is not the panacea: there maybe legitimate reasons she doesn’t enjoy ****ing him, he might be a jerk or whatever. Again, you have to look at each situation individually.


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## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Inmyprime asked a question on the "sister thread" that got me thinking:
> 
> If a woman is an enthusiastic, sex-positive lover who does not deprive her husband, is he more willing to overlook "that one thing" she doesn't want to do? Is this a bigger thing when a woman who won't do X also just isn't into sex in general? In other words, would not getting anal be easier to survive if your wife was really into sex with you on a regular basis otherwise? Or would not taking one for the team and doing anal be an emotional deal-breaker?


Many have stated repeatedly that if there is enthusiastic active engagement, none of the past specific acts would matter to them.


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## samyeagar

cashcratebob said:


> Aside from the original, five year old premise/reason, I certainty DO NOT want to do anything my wife doesn't want to do. It is a real turn-off for me if she isn't at least a little into the act. The same is true for her.


Again, many have repeatedly stated the exact same sentiment.


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## personofinterest

I probably missed it before because I was so busy trying to defend myself lol. I mean honestly, women 101 is that we are much more receptive when someone doesn't act like we are the frigid enemy with no capacity for empathy who are always wrong.



> I honestly don’t think anybody is going to even ASK the question why their wife isn’t doing X with them if she is generally enthusiastic about sex.


While I would guess there are probably a handful of men whose....brains are wired to really care way too much about X act in spite of an enthusiastic wife, I think they are likely in the small minority. I think most men who are wired to major on the minors are not married and don't date much. I can't quite explain what I mean, but I have been on the dating parts of enough forums that there's a certain type of man you just know is going to spoil the 98% wonderful because he MUST focus on the 2%. There are women like that too. The usually end up single, but I always feel for their spouse when they do end up married.

I ended up with one of those, but he was basically asexual, so his 2% focus was housework or the fact that I did 7 loads of laundry, but his "favorite" socks still weren't clean. Yeah....it was fun.


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## cashcratebob

personofinterest said:


> I probably missed it before because I was so busy trying to defend myself lol. I mean honestly, women 101 is that we are much more receptive when someone doesn't act like we are the frigid enemy with no capacity for empathy who are always wrong.
> 
> 
> *Inmyprime asked a question on the "sister thread" that got me thinking:
> 
> If a woman is an enthusiastic, sex-positive lover who does not deprive her husband, is he more willing to overlook "that one thing" she doesn't want to do? Is this a bigger thing when a woman who won't do X also just isn't into sex in general? In other words, would not getting anal be easier to survive if your wife was really into sex with you on a regular basis otherwise? Or would not taking one for the team and doing anal be an emotional deal-breaker?
> Today 09:08 AM *
> 
> You asked a straight-forward question, framed perfectly so that we (the men) could provide the answers we did.
> 
> The question though was still far removed from the original premise. I (hypothetically...since my wife and I are each others first) don't care about the act that she would be "taking one for the team" on, I care about the one that she gladly she stepped up to bat for, and knocked it out of the park (so to speak :grin2: ) and now doesn't want to even join the team on...
> 
> I don't want her to take one for the team...I don't even want to play that game.
> 
> Lost in analogous phrases now...


----------



## personofinterest

> I don't want her to take one for the team...I don't even want to play that game.


That is because you are well-adjusted. To be blunt.

However, there are posters here is who have actually SAID that wives ought to take one for the team because they OWE their husband anything off their past menus. A "good" wife will just do it and suck it up. or she obvious doesn't love him enough.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NobodySpecial said:


> You know it sounds terrible? You know this, yet you think it is true? It is true AND terrible?


Huh? You lost me. I don't know what you are getting at. I don't know if it is true or not. It seems so.


----------



## Laurentium

personofinterest said:


> However, there are posters here is who have actually SAID that wives ought to take one for the team because they OWE their husband anything off their past menus.


Really? "_Owe_"? I missed that. I've been saying all along that the men's position is not that they are "entitled" (that was a word used by the women, not the men). The men's position is that they feel that they have been "settled for" by a woman apparently not all that enthusiastic or excited about sex with them. 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I've never met a man who said "I am entitled to anal" or whatever.


----------



## Knips

I have read a story about a man who founds out his wife gave BJ to the roommate from her husband back in college. They where toghether in a exclusive relation. It seems the woman did give BJ to the roommate because he was gifted by god down below. The Husband is upset because she never performed BJ with the husband and he is also upset for the fact she has cheated. So the hudband has the right to be upset for the cheating part but not for the fact that the woman never wanted to do the BJ for the husband?


----------



## Lila

Laurentium said:


> Really? "_Owe_"? I missed that. I've been saying all along that the men's position is not that they are "entitled" (that was a word used by the women, not the men). *The men's position is that they feel that they have been "settled for" by a woman apparently not all that enthusiastic or excited about sex with them. *
> 
> Perhaps I am mistaken, but I've never met a man who said "I am entitled to anal" or whatever.


But can't the same be said about the husband. He "settled" for someone with whom sex is not enthusiastic or exciting. If he wanted particular sex acts or someone with enthusiasm then he should have held out for the woman who would do those things for him no? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lila

Knips said:


> I have read a story about a man who founds out his wife gave BJ to the roommate from her husband back in college. They where toghether in a exclusive relation. It seems the woman did give BJ to the roommate because he was gifted by god down below. The Husband is upset because she never performed BJ with the husband and he is also upset for the fact she has cheated. So the hudband has the right to be upset for the cheating part but not for the fact that the woman never wanted to do the BJ for the husband?


Correct. Why would he marry a woman who never gave him a bj if bjs were that important to him? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## oldtruck

ConanHub said:


> The level of intimacy our openness about our past created has been far more rewarding than any angst our histories might have aroused.
> 
> Mrs. Conan and I have truly mind blowing sex often. Our open look into each other and our histories, both painful memories and good, have caused a sort of intimate fusion.
> 
> Her first husband had a mammoth sized unit and I'm sure, stretched her in ways I never will.
> 
> That said, her satisfaction is totally with me.
> 
> We believe in full clarity and it has paid off for us well.


No wife is going to tell her husband that her past lover with the big 
equipment was better. She would of just ruined her sex life till she
became a widow.


----------



## oldtruck

In Absentia said:


> My wife knows everything about my sexual past because I told her everything... and she only had one previous boyfriend and, apparently, he had a very small one... :grin2:


Why are there so many men that are easily dupe?
Did wife show you the 8x10 glossies for proof?


----------



## oldtruck

Knips said:


> I have read a story about a man who founds out his wife gave BJ to the roommate from her husband back in college. They where toghether in a exclusive relation. It seems the woman did give BJ to the roommate because he was gifted by god down below. The Husband is upset because she never performed BJ with the husband and he is also upset for the fact she has cheated. So the hudband has the right to be upset for the cheating part but not for the fact that the woman never wanted to do the BJ for the husband?


Yes.

His wife showed that if a man offers up a huge one she will do anything to get
to play with it. Including to cheat and do sex acts that she will not do for a John Average.

This husband knows that the OM turned on his wife more than he did/does.
That she married Mr Safe Beta.


----------



## oldtruck

Lila said:


> Correct. Why would he marry a woman who never gave him a bj if bjs were that important to him?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Because men do not decide to marry a woman on just because she will or
will not do BJ's. Specially when he is getting everything else in their sex life.

However when the husband finds out that she did it with other men before
him it will hurt his feelings that she did it for others that she would not
marry but will not do it for the man she did marry.


----------



## Laurentium

Lila said:


> But can't the same be said about the husband. He "settled" for someone with whom sex is not enthusiastic or exciting. If he wanted particular sex acts or someone with enthusiasm then he should have held out for the woman who would do those things for him no?


Yes, that seems fair too.


----------



## personofinterest

Knips said:


> I have read a story about a man who founds out his wife gave BJ to the roommate from her husband back in college. They where toghether in a exclusive relation. It seems the woman did give BJ to the roommate because he was gifted by god down below. The Husband is upset because she never performed BJ with the husband and he is also upset for the fact she has cheated. So the hudband has the right to be upset for the cheating part but not for the fact that the woman never wanted to do the BJ for the husband?


Yep

The BJ happened before they were together. The cheating was a betrayal.

It's not rocket science.

Actually, he can be upset all he wants. He's just not entitled to a BJ to "even the score."


----------



## Lila

oldtruck said:


> Because men do not decide to marry a woman on just because she will or
> will not do BJ's. Specially when he is getting everything else in their sex life.[/b]


Then they shouldn't complain when they are not getting bjs or, for those that settled for crappy sexual partners, the sex life they dream about. 

This works the same for women who marry for financial security. 



oldtruck said:


> However when the husband finds out that she did it with other men before
> him it will hurt his feelings that she did it for others that she would not
> marry but will not do it for the man she did marry.


He is welcome to feel sad about it. What he is not allowed to do is make her feel bad about it or use it as ammo. He needs to take ownership for his decision to marry someone who didn't give him bjs, regardless of her previous experiences having done it. If this sex act was so bloody important, then he should have made sure he was getting it. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bananapeel

oldtruck said:


> Because men do not decide to marry a woman on just because she will or
> will not do BJ's. Specially when he is getting everything else in their sex life.


As long as he knows his choice he has nothing legitimate to complain about. But for me, no BJ's is a deal breaker regardless of how perfect the woman is in every other way. I just don't get settling if you know you'll be unhappy with your later.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Bananapeel said:


> As long as he knows his choice he has nothing legitimate to complain about. But for me, no BJ's is a deal breaker regardless of how perfect the woman is in every other way. *I just don't get settling if you know you'll be unhappy with your later.*


Because many people don't realize that they'll be unhappy later. It's easy to just be happy enjoying the good parts early on... so much so that the bad parts don't seem bad, if you notice them at all. Many guys don't even realize they want BJs (or some other sex act) until later. Or what starts of as a "nice to have but not a basic requirement" evolves into a "requirement" over time. 

Especially among the sexually inexperienced.


----------



## personofinterest

If a man doesnt realize he might be unhappy one day....

Sorry, that's on him.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> If a man doesnt realize he might be unhappy one day....
> 
> Sorry, that's on him.


Of course. Just pointing out the dynamic at play, not justifying it.


----------



## samyeagar

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Of course. Just pointing out the dynamic at play, not justifying it.


People are often able to happily accept limitations in a partner. It usually only becomes an issue if that limitation is later revealed to be specific to the person who accepted it.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. Just pointing out the dynamic at play, not justifying it.
> 
> 
> 
> People are often able to happily accept limitations in a partner. It usually only becomes an issue if that limitation is later revealed to be specific to the person who accepted it.
Click to expand...

If one is that interested in scorekeeping, one should find out the score prior to marriage.

It's not a womans job to fix a man or a mans job to fix a woman.

When this thread is at 700 pages, the answer will be the same.


----------



## Bananapeel

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Because many people don't realize that they'll be unhappy later. It's easy to just be happy enjoying the good parts early on... so much so that the bad parts don't seem bad, if you notice them at all. Many guys don't even realize they want BJs (or some other sex act) until later. Or what starts of as a "nice to have but not a basic requirement" evolves into a "requirement" over time.
> 
> Especially among the sexually inexperienced.


I don't blame people for making those choices, after all I was there myself once. A lot of this goes to people marrying young without a lot of life experience so they don't really know what they want, what their options really are, and what are deal breakers. I would hope my kids wouldn't even consider getting into any sort of serious relationship (instead just date casually) until they are in their mid to later 20's so they gain enough experience to make a good choice and so they don't settle for the first woman that tries to lock them down into a relationship. By the time they are in their later 20's, if they've dated quite a few people, they should be able to know what to screen for and find a good relationship match.


----------



## NobodySpecial

oldtruck said:


> No wife is going to tell her husband that her past lover with the big
> equipment was better. She would of just ruined her sex life till she
> became a widow.


Knowing that how "good" someone is at sex is not linear or measurable as such, my husband is not the least bit threatened by knowing things that felt or were "better" with other partners. Only men with equipment fear get all freaked out about size IMO. Many of us are not size queens.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> People are often able to happily accept limitations in a partner. It usually only becomes an issue if that limitation is later revealed to be specific to the person who accepted it.


I don't really understand this. My husband happily accepts my sort of type-A robotic personality despite the fact that he likes it but not despite the fact that is specific to me. Isn't that what accepting someone for who they are IS? Do YOU like perfectly every single thing about your spouse whether or not someone else may or may not be like that?

ETA: I am thin. I am never going to be voluptuous. Some of his previous partners were. He is often highly attracted to voluptuous women. Should I get freaked out that I am never going to be attractive to him in that way or happy that he is attracted to me in MY way?


----------



## cashcratebob

personofinterest said:


> If one is that interested in scorekeeping, one should find out the score prior to marriage.
> 
> It's not a womans job to fix a man or a mans job to fix a woman.
> 
> When this thread is at 700 pages, the answer will be the same.


Uggghhh...this response is the very definition of being obtuse. You completely re-framed the initial post to something easier to attack and ignored samyeagar's actual position. It isn't about scorekeeping. 

I originally said I don't want to do anything my wife doesn't want to do...and that is valid. I don't. BUUUUUUT for her to not want to do something with me that she hypothetically happily did with someone else would just be heartbreaking. Rest assured, I wouldn't bring it up since I would instantly look insecure. But it would likely eventually cause issues and bleed over into other parts of our life. As @oldtruck mentioned, it would likely kill my libido as well...I don't know but I can speculate. 

Also, lets say we did run the checklist...she comes back with a no-go on BJs; BJs are a nice to have but not a necessity. Fine, we press on (again see my original stance...I don't want nothing you don't want to happily give). But then it does come out...the original premise that she was enthusiastic about BJs with someone else. How can you not expect the guy to not immediately make this about her attraction to him? She didn't actually lie to him either right...the truth is she doesn't like giving BJs to him. 

I whole heartedly agree that people can change...that what a women liked at one point she no longer has to like at this point. I am down with that, I am down with the multiple possible reasons presented thus far. I also believe that, within reason (not degrading, emotionally or physically hurting), that a couple is entitled (to be blunt) to each other. It is a sad state if a couple gets to the point where that type of lingo is being thrown around. But if the dislike is has to do with a difference of attraction between the old guy and her new guy...dude that is a rough pill to deal with. I'll be bunt and say she has likely taken that act and locked it away in her memory box, relegated to that guy, never to be opened by anyone else.

I mean I need to go back and read the whole post (not!)...but do think that is at all a possibility? That acts can be tied to the level of attraction, with attraction not being the same as love?


----------



## ConanHub

oldtruck said:


> No wife is going to tell her husband that her past lover with the big
> equipment was better. She would of just ruined her sex life till she
> became a widow.


LOL! I am somewhat confident and experienced.

I'm not trying to come off as arrogant so please excuse me if it sounds that way.

I have had a lot of sex with many partners in many situations.

Women are rarely size queens and even size queens can be rendered senseless with good sex.

Mrs. Conan is small everywhere and is definitely not a size queen. I have been with ladies that prefer humongous and they would have stayed with me if given the chance.

Just trust me that I know a good deal about having a good time with women and I am the premiere, world authority at pleasing my woman of 27 years.:wink2:


----------



## NobodySpecial

cashcratebob said:


> I originally said I don't want to do anything my wife doesn't want to do...and that is valid. I don't. BUUUUUUT for her to not want to do something with me that she hypothetically happily did with someone else would just be heartbreaking.


Can you explain why? On this thread I have heard things like what it means to her, that she loved the other guy more, that she was hotter for him than husband. But the fact that she did something that she no longer does does not communicate either of those things. What would cause your heart to break? I don't understand.


The rest of the post really hinges on the rest of this. What does SHE say about the difference between then and now? Him or you? Or whatever? Or is she scared of the result to talking about it?


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you explain why? On this thread I have heard things like what it means to her, that she loved the other guy more, that she was hotter for him than husband. But the fact that she did something that she no longer does does not communicate either of those things. *What would cause your heart to break?* I don't understand.


I think this is the male part that we may never understand. We are trying to, but we don't seem to be wired the same on this issue. On the other hand, we have several men here saying it would not break their hearts. So it is not all men.

There are women whose hearts are broken over porn use, and it would seem no men really understand why this is. I don't fully understand it either, so it is definitely not all women. 

It seems that for the people who have this heart breaking response to what their partner does, sees, or has done, they are experiencing something the rest of us aren't experience and will never understand.

I can intellectually understand that it is something very deep and real to those who are feeling it, even though I can't feel it myself. I can empathize by comparing to other things that have made me feel heart broken, insecure, "less than", "second best", or whatever.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> I think this is the male part that we may never understand. We are trying to, but we don't seem to be wired the same on this issue. On the other hand, we have several men here saying it would not break their hearts. So it is not all men.


I won't lie. This "wired" nonsense is a pet peeve of mine. THIS man is indicating that he feels this way. I would venture most people can explain their feelings with words. The frequency with which people just cop out with the men and women are wired differently crap is irritating. A person has some control over how they respond to their feelings and even the feelings themselves. Simply copping I am wired that way severely limits their options for change.

My opinion. YMMV.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Just trust me that I know a good deal about having a good time with women and I am the premiere, world authority at pleasing my woman of 27 years.:wink2:


I've had bigger than my ex, but none better, before or since. He knew this. I never talked about sizes of exes with him (that I recall) but even if he knew I had a bigger one he would not have been insecure or weird about it.

I also know without him having to tell me all the details, that he has been with more beautiful, sexier, hotter, bigger boobs, better ass, longer legs, better at sex, and a few other "better than me" types of women. In the beginning, that did scare me a little bit, but only because I was intimidated by his experience compared to my relative inexperience. All of this was quickly put to rest in my mind once we got our groove on. It was clear that our sex life together was the best either of us had ever had, even though we had both been with body parts that may have been better on this or that other one.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> I won't lie. This "wired" nonsense is a pet peeve of mine. THIS man is indicating that he feels this way. I would venture most people can explain their feelings with words. The frequency with which people just cop out with the men and women are wired differently crap is irritating. A person has some control over how they respond to their feelings and even the feelings themselves. Simply copping I am wired that way severely limits their options for change.
> 
> My opinion. YMMV.


Agree the "wired" word doesn't actually work or explain anything (and is not science). But I don't know what other word to use. There are differences. Not sure what to call them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> I've had bigger than my ex, but none better, before or since. He knew this. I never talked about sizes of exes with him (that I recall) but even if he knew I had a bigger one he would not have been insecure or weird about it.
> 
> I also know without him having to tell me all the details, that he has been with more beautiful, sexier, hotter, bigger boobs, better ass, longer legs, better at sex, and a few other "better than me" types of women. In the beginning, that did scare me a little bit, but only because I was intimidated by his experience compared to my relative inexperience. All of this was quickly put to rest in my mind once we got our groove on. It was clear that our sex life together was the best either of us had ever had, even though we had both been with body parts that may have been better on this or that other one.


None of this ever bothered me because, whatever they may have been, I was the better over all package. After all, he chose me. Never in a million years did it occur to me that he might have settled. He didn't.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree the "wired" word doesn't actually work or explain anything (and is not science). But I don't know what other word to use. There are differences. Not sure what to call them.


There is no real reason to think these difference are male / female differences that I can see. These may just be people who think a certain way vs people who think another way differences. It may rep as male / female as the microcosm that is this board tends to attract different posters than the mainstream.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> None of this ever bothered me because, whatever they may have been, I was the better over all package. After all, he chose me. Never in a million years did it occur to me that he might have settled. He didn't.


In the beginning when I wasn't sure I wanted to keep him, I was only concerned about how good our sex was. In the very very beginning, I sometimes worried that he might have been disappointed with my "fill in the blank" compared to others, as I had not even 1/10th of the experience he had (including some very kinky stuff).

This fear was gone very quickly, and long before we became more committed to each other. So at the time, him choosing me or me choosing him as a life partner wasn't part of the picture. I was just hoping he'd keep choosing me as his lover and girlfriend because the sex was rockin' and he was sooooo fine. 

By the time we were choosing each other as life partners, we were so far sunk into each other that no one else existed.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> There is no real reason to think these difference are male / female differences that I can see. These may just be people who think a certain way vs people who think another way differences. It may rep as male / female as the microcosm that is this board tends to attract different posters than the mainstream.


That is definitely true. It could also all be just cultural/gender conditioning.


----------



## personofinterest

It's not gender. It's the same thing that was at play when I taught elementary school. When I passed out working, brightly colored art supplies, there was always that handful of students who wined over who got Crayola and who got Rose Art.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I recently saw a rather extreme version of this phenomenon on an episode of Law and Order SVU (presumably fictional, although they do often use real life examples for plots). 

A young man was resisting gang initiation, so the gang gang raped his girlfriend and made him watch. The very concept is already brutal beyond my comprehension.

You’d think the young man, even fearing the gang, would want justice. But he refused to identify and testify against the rapists. 
Why?
It turned out that during the gang rape, the young woman, his girlfriend, had several orgasms. Although the tragic couple had been sexually active with each other for quite some time, she had never orgasmed through intercourse with him. So when she did during a gang rape, that made him both horribly depressed and insanely angry. He could not be made to understand that there was no connection bet ween those orgasms, his lack thereof, and the presence or absence of love and devotion in their relationship. 

While his response was horrific and badly misplaced, it’s easy to see where we get such ideas. Even the professionals tell us that the most powerful sex organ in the female body is her brain. So the natural conclusion to be drawn from that is, if she’s not cumming with me but did with someone else, it must be because she’s not into me (assuming that I have some skill in the area to begin with). 

Naturally, the same “logic” would apply to whether or not she wants to or enjoys engaging in some sexual act with me vice a previous lover. 

Not saying this is at all right, but from a male linear thought process point of view, it’s not at all irrational.


----------



## personofinterest

Sadly, I could see a thread like that SVU episode popping up here....and I could likely guess who would tacitly agree with the boyfriend.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> It's not gender. It's the same thing that was at play when I taught elementary school. When I passed out working, brightly colored art supplies, there was always that handful of students who wined over who got Crayola and who got Rose Art.


Of course. Rose Art was crap. Even elementary kids want something that works well!


----------



## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you explain why? On this thread I have heard things like what it means to her, that she loved the other guy more, that she was hotter for him than husband. But the fact that she did something that she no longer does does not communicate either of those things. What would cause your heart to break? I don't understand.
> 
> 
> The rest of the post really hinges on the rest of this. What does SHE say about the difference between then and now? Him or you? Or whatever? Or is she scared of the result to talking about it?


I'll take a shot at this one.

I have always wanted to experience a deep throat BJ and also being able to finish in my partner's mouth.

My first time was with a gal that didn't mind almost anything and finished me that way though she couldn't deep throat.

I'm not at all bothered by physical restrictions concerning depth during a BJ so Mrs. Conan simply can't.

If she had finished previous partners in her mouth and enjoyed it but would not for me???

Well I wouldn't be heartbroken but she better pull a good rabbit 🐰 out of her hat as to why.

I'm a generous partner with very few limits and willing to try many things I might not be interested in simply to please my mate.

I require at least a similar willingness from my partner and Mrs. Conan has not disappointed.

She has also always had a difficult time with oral and she has never allowed a finish in her mouth.

If I found that she use to enthusiastically do it and enjoy it, she would have a bigger problem in that she lied to me but even if she told me soon into our relationship, she would need a good explanation to tell me what is up.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> If a man doesnt realize he might be unhappy one day....
> 
> Sorry, that's on him.




Most men would do well changing their balls for a pair of crystal balls  to know the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> Sadly, I could see a thread like that SVU episode popping up here....and I could likely guess who would tacitly agree with the boyfriend.


I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a twinge of empathy for the guy. 

But as humans, we have the capability of rising above our basest instincts and darkest thoughts. There should always be a filter between our knee-jerk reactions and our subsequent actions.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree the "wired" word doesn't actually work or explain anything (and is not science). But I don't know what other word to use. There are differences. Not sure what to call them.


When I read "wired", I read it as something that is not conscious, and can't really be changed. Such as raw attraction. I can't help the fact that I am very attracted to thin, pale skinned, freckled, small boobed, redheads. I always have been. I can obviously control it, but the raw, visceral reaction is always there. I can't control it. I am "wired" that way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I recently saw a rather extreme version of this phenomenon on an episode of Law and Order SVU (presumably fictional, although they do often use real life examples for plots).
> 
> A young man was resisting gang initiation, so the gang gang raped his girlfriend and made him watch. The very concept is already brutal beyond my comprehension.
> 
> You’d think the young man, even fearing the gang, would want justice. But he refused to identify and testify against the rapists.
> Why?
> It turned out that during the gang rape, the young woman, his girlfriend, had several orgasms. Although the tragic couple had been sexually active with each other for quite some time, she had never orgasmed through intercourse with him. So when she did during a gang rape, that made him both horribly depressed and insanely angry. He could not be made to understand that there was no connection bet ween those orgasms, his lack thereof, and the presence or absence of love and devotion in their relationship.
> 
> While his response was horrific and badly misplaced, it’s easy to see where we get such ideas. Even the professionals tell us that the most powerful sex organ in the female body is her brain. So the natural conclusion to be drawn from that is, if she’s not cumming with me but did with someone else, it must be because she’s not into me (assuming that I have some skill in the area to begin with).
> 
> Naturally, the same “logic” would apply to whether or not she wants to or enjoys engaging in some sexual act with me vice a previous lover.
> 
> Not saying this is at all right, but from a male linear thought process point of view, it’s not at all irrational.


See to me, this show and scenario is part of why men are messed up. It is makin men messed up by trying to make it seem not irrational, but it is totally irrational! I know you are not saying it is right, but it is also not rational. 

God please, a woman is gang raped and the man is forced to watch, and he's not going to testify against the rapists? For ANY reason, that would be irrational. And it simply sensationalizes and normalizes the irrational crap that the boyfriend had gotten into his head, _at the expense of making it seem like a woman being gang raped is literally punishment to HER for not having more/better O's with him_. Whoever wrote the show should be sent to Antartica, jesus christ.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't really understand this. My husband happily accepts my sort of type-A robotic personality despite the fact that he likes it but not despite the fact that is specific to me. Isn't that what accepting someone for who they are IS? Do YOU like perfectly every single thing about your spouse whether or not someone else may or may not be like that?
> 
> ETA: I am thin. I am never going to be voluptuous. Some of his previous partners were. He is often highly attracted to voluptuous women. Should I get freaked out that I am never going to be attractive to him in that way or happy that he is attracted to me in MY way?


I see where the misunderstanding is. Bluntly, accepting a person for who they are is often fine, until one realizes the person they accepted may not be who they thought they were accepting.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> While his response was horrific and badly misplaced, it’s easy to see where we get such ideas. Even the professionals tell us that the most powerful sex organ in the female body is her brain. *So the natural conclusion to be drawn from that is, if she’s not cumming with me but did with someone else, it must be because she’s not into me* (assuming that I have some skill in the area to begin with).
> 
> Naturally, the same “logic” would apply to whether or not she wants to or enjoys engaging in some sexual act with me vice a previous lover.
> 
> Not saying this is at all right, but from a male linear thought process point of view, it’s not at all irrational.


I am not even sure what you are saying. Bad fiction leads people to think things that are not true? Otherwise, this is just guessing/ ascribing her feelings to her that she may or may not have which is the opposite of loving. This is the point of judging what those actions or lack of actions MEAN to HER based in what HE feels.

The natural conclusion is that if she is not cumming with him it must be because something that she feels uniquely unto herself.

ETA: And what if she ISN'T as sexually into husband? What if that IS what is meant. Then what?


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> When I read "wired", I read it as something that is not conscious, and can't really be changed. Such as raw attraction. I can't help the fact that I am very attracted to thin, pale skinned, freckled, small boobed, redheads. I always have been. I can obviously control it, but the raw, visceral reaction is always there. I can't control it. I am "wired" that way.


I use it in ways like that too, but it is still true that the "wired" part is not literal nor a scientific thing.

I suppose if you want to call your neuro transmitter system "wiring" but it does not act like physical wiring of any kind and it is also malleable (even for you...your thing for red heads could be changed by many different things, including trauma associated with red heads...I've known men who first preferred and then avoided a certain type of woman if he met that type of woman and then horrible things went down, for example).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> See to me, this show and scenario is part of why men are messed up. It is makin men messed up by trying to make it seem not irrational, but it is totally irrational! I know you are not saying it is right, but it is also not rational.
> 
> God please, a woman is gang raped and the man is forced to watch, and he's not going to testify against the rapists? For ANY reason, that would be irrational. And it simply sensationalizes and normalizes the irrational crap that the boyfriend had gotten into his head, _at the expense of making it seem like a woman being gang raped is literally punishment to HER for not having more/better O's with him_. Whoever wrote the show should be sent to Antartica, jesus christ.


I agree with your assessment of everything (the horrors of the act itself, specifically upon the woman, the horrors of the boyfriend's reaction, etc), but not the assessment of the point and impact of the show. It did not "normalize" his reaction as much as show how horrific, tragic, and inexcusable his reaction was. The show went to great lengths to express that the orgasms were not wanted by her, nor were they indicative of anything more than an involuntary reaction to an unimaginably horrific experience. 

The bottom line of the show was that the young man's reaction was not only unfounded, but also amounted to an even more brutal revictimization of his girlfriend and, as happened in the plot, would invariably lead to even greater tragedy not only for her but for him as well. 

The entire show seemed almost to be written in such a way as to use this extreme example to tell women that if they have suffered assault or have had an unwanted climax, that there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, and that if any men take such a thing personally, that they should be ashamed. I'm not much on message TV shows, but this seemed to be a pretty good message that someone thought could be best delivered by such a dark story.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I agree with your assessment of everything (the horrors of the act itself, specifically upon the woman, the horrors of the boyfriend's reaction, etc), but not the assessment of the point and impact of the show. It did not "normalize" his reaction as much as show how horrific, tragic, and inexcusable his reaction was. The show went to great lengths to express that the orgasms were not wanted by her, nor were they indicative of anything more than an involuntary reaction to an unimaginably horrific experience.
> 
> The bottom line of the show was that the young man's reaction was not only unfounded, but also amounted to an even more brutal revictimization of his girlfriend and, as happened in the plot, would invariably lead to even greater tragedy not only for her but for him as well.
> 
> The entire show seemed almost to be written in such a way as to use this extreme example to tell women that if they have suffered assault or have had an unwanted climax, that there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, and that if any men take such a thing personally, that they should be ashamed. I'm not much on message TV shows, but this seemed to be a pretty good message that someone thought could be best delivered by such a dark story.


But to do this, they created a full visual simulation of the gang rape of a woman _for people's entertainment_ (ie: drama TV shows are nothing but entertainment). I still disagree that this is helpful in this form.

I get what you mean about the message that they seemed to be trying to put forth.

The way they did it is still complete worthless crap, IMO.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> But to do this, they created a full visual simulation of the gang rape of a woman _for people's entertainment_ (ie: drama TV shows are nothing but entertainment). I still disagree that this is helpful in this form.
> 
> I get what you mean about the message that they seemed to be trying to put forth.
> 
> The way they did it is still complete worthless crap, IMO.


Maybe. I'm not sure I can say with confidence one way or the other on this. I do note that this is a form that reaches a lot of people who might otherwise never be exposed to such a message. 

btw, the simulated rape itself was not shown beyond the suggestion of people entering her room. The show focused on the aftermath only, with no prurient flashback. Any visual simulation of the rape would be in the imagination of the viewer.


----------



## 269370

cashcratebob said:


> BJs are a nice to have but not a necessity.



I don’t know. Unless there’s a BJ straight after anal, you can never really be sure if it’s true love  



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----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not even sure what you are saying. Bad fiction leads people to think things that are not true? Otherwise, this is just guessing/ ascribing her feelings to her that she may or may not have which is the opposite of loving. This is the point of judging what those actions or lack of actions MEAN to HER based in what HE feels.
> 
> The natural conclusion is that if she is not cumming with him it must be because something that she feels uniquely unto herself.
> 
> ETA: And what if she ISN'T as sexually into husband? What if that IS what is meant. Then what?


Is the importance of the brain in sex a fiction? I have never heard anyone say that, especially a sex expert. 

I agree the jumping to a conclusion is bad. Clearly there are more variables at play than just whether or not she's into him, and he should understand that rather than assuming otherwise.

But even if its "something that she feels uniquely unto herself," the fact that she felt something unto herself differently when with a previous lover is still gonna' be problematic. The question just shifts to "why did you feel that, even uniquely unto yourself, when you were with him but not with me?" No matter how personal her feeling may have been, it doesn't by itself resolve the core dilemma. That's why the rest of the context is so important.


----------



## cashcratebob

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you explain why? On this thread I have heard things like what it means to her, that she loved the other guy more, that she was hotter for him than husband. But the fact that she did something that she no longer does does not communicate either of those things. What would cause your heart to break? I don't understand.
> 
> 
> The rest of the post really hinges on the rest of this. What does SHE say about the difference between then and now? Him or you? Or whatever? Or is she scared of the result to talking about it?


This is all hypothetical. My wife and I have only ever been with each other...so I was really speculating on how I would feel. But to answer the first question I would, given the situation be hurt because I would only believe that it was because she was "hotter" for the other guy. That doesn't mean that she doesn't love me more...that she hasn't pair bonded with me, but there was something very intense with that previous relationship that she doesn't have with me...that I can't produce in her. 

BUT AGAIN...all hypothetical. Also, to attempt to answer your second question...I would say that if that were a reality I was dealing with, that what she said regarding the situation would not matter nearly as much as her actions and non-verbals in the situation. But we are getting into wild speculation at this point.


----------



## personofinterest

That's okay, crashcratebob. Almost this entire thread is hypothetical lol


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Is the importance of the brain in sex a fiction? I have never heard anyone say that, especially a sex expert.


No. Did I say something to make you think that was my conclusion?




> I agree the jumping to a conclusion is bad. Clearly there are more variables at play than just whether or not she's into him, and he should understand that rather than assuming otherwise.
> 
> But even if its "something that she feels uniquely unto herself," the fact that she felt something unto herself differently when with a previous lover is still gonna' be problematic.


What no one can seem to put their finger on is WHY. Specifically why this would cause, as the OP indicated, HEARTBREAK. We don't know what it means to her. But if means heart break to him, why? The reason I ask is not to be picky. But to wonder if there is something HE can do to ease himself. It sounds like otherwise things are pretty good.



> The question just shifts to "why did you feel that, even uniquely unto yourself, when you were with him but not with me?" No matter how personal her feeling may have been, it doesn't by itself resolve the core dilemma. That's why the rest of the context is so important.


I volunteer that the "core dilemma" could be to examine why he feels that she did in her past has any bearing on him today.


----------



## personofinterest

"I volunteer that the "core dilemma" could be to examine why he feels that she did in her past has any bearing on him today."

Because everything is about him. That is the personality trait common to people who think this way, male or female.


----------



## cashcratebob

Faithful Wife said:


> I think this is the male part that we may never understand. We are trying to, but we don't seem to be wired the same on this issue. On the other hand, we have several men here saying it would not break their hearts. So it is not all men.
> 
> *There are women whose hearts are broken over porn use, and it would seem no men really understand why this is.* I don't fully understand it either, so it is definitely not all women.
> 
> It seems that for the people who have this heart breaking response to what their partner does, sees, or has done, they are experiencing something the rest of us aren't experience and will never understand.
> 
> I can intellectually understand that it is something very deep and real to those who are feeling it, even though I can't feel it myself. I can empathize by comparing to other things that have made me feel heart broken, insecure, "less than", "second best", or whatever.


Porn us would hurt my wife...and I understand why. We are entirely on the same page with that. 

I think you are absolutely right in your view that it may very well be something you don't understand and won't...like I may never understand the other side of this argument...especially the specific premise of enthusiastically used to do it but not anymore. Actually...I do think I get it I just think the women on this board may never have committed the act and therefore don't understand that possibility of it being a reality. Which I think is a good thing. Especially since the only credibility to the premise is, the one OP, and WS and AP stories. I've seen other more substantiating evidences that I can't link to from my work. 

Honestly just like the discussion...trying to figure it all out so to speak. I am not above being insecure either...I'll put myself right out there. When you make yourself vulnerable to someone, I think a level of potential insecurity can come with that. But we may not agree on that either.


----------



## Faithful Wife

cashcratebob said:


> Porn us would hurt my wife...and I understand why. We are entirely on the same page with that.
> 
> I think you are absolutely right in your view that it may very well be something you don't understand and won't...like I may never understand the other side of this argument...especially the specific premise of enthusiastically used to do it but not anymore. Actually...I do think I get it I just think the women on this board may never have committed the act and therefore don't understand that possibility of it being a reality. Which I think is a good thing. Especially since the only credibility to the premise is, the one OP, and WS and AP stories. *I've seen other more substantiating evidences that I can't link to from my work. *
> 
> Honestly just like the discussion...trying to figure it all out so to speak. I am not above being insecure either...I'll put myself right out there. When you make yourself vulnerable to someone, I think a level of potential insecurity can come with that. But we may not agree on that either.


To the bolded, I think the women on this thread would easily and willingly respond to specific examples with what we think is going on in the woman's head.

What we can't seem to do is imagine what is going on in a hypothetical woman's head. Because I mean...how can anyone do that? If we as women had lots of friends who had specific examples of times they were not into current guy but was into previous guy and if those friends shared all the details about how and why this occurred for her, then we would have more ability to make a guess at what a hypothetical woman may have been thinking. But we don't have that pool to draw from, which makes it seem to us like it doesn't happen that often. That combined with the lack of specific/real examples.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> No. Did I say something to make you think that was my conclusion?
> 
> 
> 
> What no one can seem to put their finger on is WHY. Specifically why this would cause, as the OP indicated, HEARTBREAK. We don't know what it means to her. But if means heart break to him, why? The reason I ask is not to be picky. But to wonder if there is something HE can do to ease himself. It sounds like otherwise things are pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> I volunteer that the "core dilemma" could be to examine why he feels that she did in her past has any bearing on him today.


The premise of my post was that the brain being the most powerful sex organ leads to the idea that less enthusiasm/acts/orgasms or whatever means less attraction. So the conclusion of less attraction is based on the brain not being jazzed about this relationship. You then said the same conclusion is based on fiction. So the parallel would indicate that the "fiction" was the brain being a powerful sex organ. 

They "why" (right or wrong...as I have agreed multiple times through this thread that it's perfectly possible men misread this) is quite simple. The hearbreak comes from thinking you aren't turning her crank the way someone else did. Of course, how women respond, and even what they will enjoy, will change over time, often independent of who with they are at the moment, which is the variable that men who find this heartbreak tend to overlook.


----------



## NobodySpecial

cashcratebob said:


> This is all hypothetical. My wife and I have only ever been with each other...so I was really speculating on how I would feel. But to answer the first question I would, given the situation be hurt


Ok, you would be hurt. Fair enough and simple enough.



> because *I would only believe that it was because* she was "hotter" for the other guy. That doesn't mean that she doesn't love me more...that she hasn't pair bonded with me, but there was something very intense with that previous relationship (where is the strikeout font!) *SEX* that she doesn't have with me...that I can't produce in her.


So there are two things here that in the hypothetical don't sit right with me. Not that it IS, but what one might chose to do with this revelation. One, you WOULD ONLY BELIEVE that which you constructed in your own head. Furthermore, she had something with someone else. And that hurts you. Again, fair enough. And simple enough. But....



> BUT AGAIN...all hypothetical. Also, to attempt to answer your second question...I would say that if that were a reality I was dealing with, that what she said regarding the situation would not matter *nearly as much as her actions and non-verbals in the situation*. But we are getting into wild speculation at this point.


What actions and non-verbals? What message does not hurt further? What non-verbals might someone use for yah he was a **** but for whatever reason he really lit my fire? And why should she be culpable for that? AND given that she knows your feelings are already hurt, IS there anyway for her to communicate without hurting feelings further in this hypothetical situation? Or what non-verbals would be used for "you know sexuality is not the sum of the actions performed for me"....


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## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The hearbreak comes from thinking you aren't turning her crank the way someone else did. Of course, how women respond, and even what they will enjoy, will change over time, often independent of who with they are at the moment, which is the variable that men who find this heartbreak tend to overlook.


I guess if this is the bottom line, then it really isn't any different than a person of any gender "thinking" they aren't turning their partner's crank the way someone else did. This would be heartbreaking for some people, but not others. And the reason they "think" their partner got their cranked turned better matters, IMO. Also if it is true or not matters, IMO. But I suppose people are free to have their hearts broken over whatever they "think" is real.

TLDR: It is not a gender thing after all.


----------



## samyeagar

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The premise of my post was that the brain being the most powerful sex organ leads to the idea that less enthusiasm/acts/orgasms or whatever means less attraction. So the conclusion of less attraction is based on the brain not being jazzed about this relationship. You then said the same conclusion is based on fiction. So the parallel would indicate that the "fiction" was the brain being a powerful sex organ.
> 
> They "why" (right or wrong...as I have agreed multiple times through this thread that it's perfectly possible men misread this) is quite simple. The hearbreak comes from thinking you aren't turning her crank the way someone else did. Of course, how women respond, and even what they will enjoy, will change over time, often independent of who with they are at the moment, which is the variable that men who find this heartbreak tend to overlook.


Not all that different from the notion that many less enlightened women than we have here on TAM share...in that a man's erection is somehow tied to his level of attraction to a woman. Many women struggle with even rare ED. They somehow take it personally if the guy they are with can't get it up for them, and feel heartbreak, even if they intellectually know better.


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## 269370

cashcratebob said:


> I mean I need to go back and read the whole post (not!)...but do think that is at all a possibility? That acts can be tied to the level of attraction, with attraction not being the same as love?



Yes I think it was MEM who said that the more turned on/attracted you are to your partner the less grossed out you are by stuff. I think that’s quite true but perhaps not the full picture and doesn’t take every circumstance into account.



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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Not all that different from the notion that many less enlightened women than we have here on TAM share...in that a man's erection is somehow tied to his level of attraction to a woman. Many women struggle with even rare ED. They somehow take it personally if the guy they are with can't get it up for them, and feel heartbreak, even if they intellectually know better.


"You got it up for her, but not for me!!"

Actually...I do remember being young enough to not understand how erections work or how and why they occasionally don't work. I talked to my partner and some friends about it, and was reassured that it is not always under a man's control and it is not always about his attraction to a woman. And then when I remembered they sometimes happen for no reason at all, it finally all sunk in.

Though at the same time... I think a (healthy) man himself would figure he's not that into a woman if he never was able to get it up with her? Though that could happen due to nerves and other reasons, too. 

Erections. They are frisky and finicky.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Women are rarely size queens and even size queens can be rendered senseless with good sex.



Agreed. Even a water drip can make a canyon if it pokes at the rock long and persistently enough. Imagine what a tiny penis could do in a million years!



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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> "You got it up for her, but not for me!!"
> 
> Actually...I do remember being young enough to not understand how erections work or how and why they occasionally don't work. I talked to my partner and some friends about it, and was reassured that it is not always under a man's control and it is not always about his attraction to a woman. And then when I remembered they sometimes happen for no reason at all, it finally all sunk in.
> 
> Though at the same time... I think a (healthy) man himself would figure he's not that into a woman if he never was able to get it up with her? Though that could happen due to nerves and other reasons, too.
> 
> Erections. They are frisky and finicky.


It'd be even easier to reason through if he never had the ED issue with anyone else before, I'm sure.


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## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Not all that different from the notion that many less enlightened women than we have here on TAM share...in that *a man's erection is somehow tied to his level of attraction to a woman*. Many women struggle with even rare ED. They somehow take it personally if the guy they are with can't get it up for them, and feel heartbreak, even if they intellectually know better.


For the record, I make it a point of calling out this falsehood whenever I see it. This is nonsense. Dangerous, definitely unsympathetic nonsense.


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## cashcratebob

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok, you would be hurt. Fair enough and simple enough.
> 
> 
> So there are two things here that in the hypothetical don't sit right with me. Not that it IS, but what one might chose to do with this revelation. One, you WOULD ONLY BELIEVE that which you constructed in your own head.* Furthermore, she had something with someone else. And that hurts you. Again, fair enough. And simple enough. But....
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> What actions and non-verbals? What message does not hurt further? What non-verbals might someone use for yah he was a **** but for whatever reason he really lit my fire? And why should she be culpable for that? AND given that she knows your feelings are already hurt, IS there anyway for her to communicate without hurting feelings further in this hypothetical situation? Or what non-verbals would be used for "you know sexuality is not the sum of the actions performed for me"....


*
SOOOO...the act not the sex. We've moved from an actually act to Sex...I see what you did there. No, no, no...we're talking about a specific act, not just "sex". *

I think it would likely look like an unwillingness to give detail. I withholding because, as you have just alluded to, it would be hurtful to go further. As far the culpability, nah...what you gonna do right? I mean he lit the fire. That really can't be helped. I think the point is once it comes out, that can't go back in the box and that kind of thing can tear a man (or woman...?) down. He has to decide how to deal...but to say he shouldn't be hurt, well I mean I think that is just the humanity coming out. I think it would bother any man to a varying degree...to what degree from infinitesimal...small blip of jealousy...to full tilt no libido any longer, I can't say. 

Heartbroken was probably a strong word. I am sitting here now trying to project into that situation...jealousy comes to mind. But a clear desire to not want that act at all also comes up...because I don't want what you don't want to happily give.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> None of this ever bothered me because, whatever they may have been, I was the better over all package. After all, he chose me. Never in a million years did it occur to me that he might have settled. He didn't.



Some of you girls still keep ignoring the most important piece of the puzzle in the premise on which this discussion rests: the wife had enthusiastic sex in the past with someone else and now, with her current husband, the sex is meh. The current husband finds out about this and feels insecure/inadequate because the only explanation that makes sense to him is that his wife is not that into him. What’s so difficult to understand about this basic feeling? One ain’t need being a scientist.

The premise was NOT that the current sex life is satisfying or even good, if it was, then of course there’s no reason to feel insecure about the past. Who would care about the past if sex was mind blowing?

Both sides keep discussing different things. 


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> None of this ever bothered me because, whatever they may have been, I was the better over all package. After all, he chose me. Never in a million years did it occur to me that he might have settled. He didn't.



Yes exactly. And if you found out that he did, in fact, settle? That you found an email where he wrote that the sex he had with person X was the most mind blowing sex and that he will never ever have that kind of sex with anyone else in present or in future. You wouldn’t feel heart broken? I wonder how deep would one have to put their head in the sand to still be fine about it.

A wife who is not having enthusiastic sex with her CURRENT husband, is basically that email (if you have the knowledge of the wife’s sexual past which not many people do).


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## cashcratebob

NobodySpecial said:


> For the record, I make it a point of calling out this falsehood whenever I see it. This is nonsense. Dangerous, definitely unsympathetic nonsense.



My wife has TMJ. I am of average endowment but even still, BJs are uncomfortable for her. But she is enthusiastic about giving them so, bless her heart, she goes for it every once and while. But remember my stance..."if you don't want to do it, please don't"...so this means that as great as BJs are...half the time it becomes an awkward moment of inability to perform since I tend to be concerned with her physical discomfort with the act. 

...accept the nights where I have had a few to drink...then the concern tends to evaporate. 

But this also results in a smidge of her being a little put-off/sad/annoyed (whatever negative word) that the situation "deflates". We talk it out...but it doesn't mean that she still doesn't get the tiniest bit of "well I'm not sexy enough" going through her mind, even though I think she rationally gets that it is only because of my concern for her in the situation that makes it difficult for me to maintain. Especially when I hear her jaw pop!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok, you would be hurt. Fair enough and simple enough.
> 
> 
> So there are two things here that in the hypothetical don't sit right with me. Not that it IS, but what one might chose to do with this revelation. One, you WOULD ONLY BELIEVE that which you constructed in your own head. Furthermore, she had something with someone else. And that hurts you. Again, fair enough. And simple enough. But....
> 
> 
> 
> What actions and non-verbals? What message does not hurt further? What non-verbals might someone use for yah he was a **** but for whatever reason he really lit my fire? And why should she be culpable for that? AND given that she knows your feelings are already hurt, IS there anyway for her to communicate without hurting feelings further in this hypothetical situation? Or what non-verbals would be used for "you know sexuality is not the sum of the actions performed for me"....


Speaking only personally, that would not hurt me. In fact quite the opposite. I wish that my wife had found all previous relationships satisfying. I want her life to have been a good one, even before she met me.

Similarly, it doesn't bother me that someone else really lit her fire. As long as I light her fire, all's good in the world. 

But when evidence starts to mount that I' not turning her crank like before, things get dicey. Of course, any of this evidence may actually be due to other factors. For instance, if she used to give BJs but no longer does, there may be other reasons for that. If she came with him more than you, there may be other reasons for that. If she wanted sex daily with him but weekly with you, there may be other reasons for that. But multiple factors start to indicate a trend. 

IMO, one of the most common lies is "It's not you, it's me." Even when it's delivered sincerely, it's often the person saying it deluding themselves. After all, look at how often the "me" that is supposedly changes withe a different "you" shows up. 

And let's say, just for sake of extending the hypothetical argument, that she truly, honestly loves me at least as much, if not more, than any previous lover. If that so called love is not accompanied by corresponding physical affection, just how valid is it? 

Some men are content to know that, in the end, they got the girl because, on balance and all things considered, he was the best overall package in her eyes. Others can't handle being the clear favorite in ALL areas, or at least he sexual area (and not just sex in general but all possible manifestations of it(, which seems to be the source of most of men's insecurities. 

Not many men seem to break out in a cold sweat when they think "OMG, she's not satisfied because I don't make as much as that doctor she was dating!" But start comparing sexual resumes and the insecurities come busting right out.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I'll take a shot at this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I have always wanted to experience a deep throat BJ and also being able to finish in my partner's mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> My first time was with a gal that didn't mind almost anything and finished me that way though she couldn't deep throat.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not at all bothered by physical restrictions concerning depth during a BJ so Mrs. Conan simply can't.
> 
> 
> 
> If she had finished previous partners in her mouth and enjoyed it but would not for me???
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wouldn't be heartbroken but she better pull a good rabbit  out of her hat as to why.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a generous partner with very few limits and willing to try many things I might not be interested in simply to please my mate.
> 
> 
> 
> I require at least a similar willingness from my partner and Mrs. Conan has not disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> She has also always had a difficult time with oral and she has never allowed a finish in her mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> If I found that she use to enthusiastically do it and enjoy it, she would have a bigger problem in that she lied to me but even if she told me soon into our relationship, she would need a good explanation to tell me what is up.



Precisely. But she didn’t let anyone else finish in her mouth either as far as you know that’s why you are not bothered. 
But what if she didn’t have a ‘good explanation’ why them and not you? What would be your next move?

What the other side has an issue with is, among other things, why you would want to demand an explanation in the first place: surely the ‘I just don’t like doing that anymore’ should be good enough for you to just leave this alone?


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I recently saw a rather extreme version of this phenomenon on an episode of Law and Order SVU (presumably fictional, although they do often use real life examples for plots).
> 
> 
> 
> A young man was resisting gang initiation, so the gang gang raped his girlfriend and made him watch. The very concept is already brutal beyond my comprehension.
> 
> 
> 
> You’d think the young man, even fearing the gang, would want justice. But he refused to identify and testify against the rapists.
> 
> Why?
> 
> It turned out that during the gang rape, the young woman, his girlfriend, had several orgasms. Although the tragic couple had been sexually active with each other for quite some time, she had never orgasmed through intercourse with him. So when she did during a gang rape, that made him both horribly depressed and insanely angry. He could not be made to understand that there was no connection bet ween those orgasms, his lack thereof, and the presence or absence of love and devotion in their relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> While his response was horrific and badly misplaced, it’s easy to see where we get such ideas. Even the professionals tell us that the most powerful sex organ in the female body is her brain. So the natural conclusion to be drawn from that is, if she’s not cumming with me but did with someone else, it must be because she’s not into me (assuming that I have some skill in the area to begin with).
> 
> 
> 
> Naturally, the same “logic” would apply to whether or not she wants to or enjoys engaging in some sexual act with me vice a previous lover.
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying this is at all right, but from a male linear thought process point of view, it’s not at all irrational.




Isn’t it exactly the same type of thinking when the rape victim thinks it’s his/her fault? When a close relative dies sometimes we think what we could have done differently? Things that we know with our rational mind we have no influence over, the irrational part makes us think it is somehow our fault.
People are self centred generally and sometimes we make those weird connections. I don’t think it’s very difficult to understand and not sure why people are baffled by it.

Especially since there actually is a reasonable chance that there very well could be a connection. (If she really was more into the past boyfriend than the current one).

That story is difficult to read...Horrible.


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----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a twinge of empathy for the guy.
> 
> 
> 
> But as humans, we have the capability of rising above our basest instincts and darkest thoughts. There should always be a filter between our knee-jerk reactions and our subsequent actions.



Why would you not feel sympathy? They were both victims (though in quite different degrees obviously). I don’t think anyone should deny or minimise that it was traumatising for him too.

It’s often the case that women don’t testify or report sexual abuse precisely because they don’t want to go through the ordeal all over again. 
Surely he didn’t want to testify for similar reasons rather than because he couldn’t make his wife cum and the gang could...That is unrealistic and makes no sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Yes exactly. And if you found out that he did, in fact, settle?


It is pretty hard to fathom. I mean, we knew each other, spent time with each other, grew to love each other BEFORE getting married. Like we knew each other pretty well. Thus the decision to get married. Short of bald faced lying, which is a no holds barred deal breaker, how would I not know this? Seriously. People talk about things that they find out after marriage that make no sense to me.



> That you found an email where he wrote that the sex he had with person X was the most mind blowing sex and that he will never ever have that kind of sex with anyone else in present or in future.


Well I did not have to find an email that sex with one of his ex was beyond mind blowing. He told me. He also told me that she cheated on him, left him and stiffed him for $200. I think my exact response was "b!tch!" (We have a good laugh about this as she is in both of our Facebook friends lists. She is a VERY large woman and more than a bit of a control freak as wife and mother. He jokes about the bullet he dodged.) 

I am not sure how he could look into a magic crystal snowball and determine what he ever would have ever again in his whole life. And I am under no illusion that I am the be all of all sexual human beings. That someone made him mac n cheese that was better than mine, or he had sex that was better than me just IS. It is just one little piece of the big puzzle of life and relationship.



> You wouldn’t feel heart broken?


No. Apparently not.



> I wonder how deep would one have to put their head in the sand to still be fine about it.


You wonder what it would be like for someone not to look at things precisely the way you do? I am trying to share that. It is not working well. You do not seem to want to hear anything but agreement. Your loss. It is weird though that you project that someone must be deceiving themselves to be fine with it. 



> A wife who is not having enthusiastic sex with her CURRENT husband, is basically that email (if you have the knowledge of the wife’s sexual past which not many people do).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the past is irrelevant to the present. But I have said that. You apparently want to skip that part when you reply to me. That's cool.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It'd be even easier to reason through if he never had the ED issue with anyone else before, I'm sure.


See in the case of a once in awhile lack of erection, it may occur to me that this man isn’t into me, but it wouldn’t occur to me to ask if this had ever happened to him with a partner before me. 

If he made it clear without me asking that this had never happened with anyone before me, I would ask why he felt that was the case and go from there.

If he said he wasn’t that into me and was into everyone before me, I’d say ok seems this would be the end for us.

If he said he doesn’t know why it had never happened before me, then I would assume there was some issue with our intimacy that wasn’t doing it for him (assuming the lack of erections kept happening). It wouldn’t really matter what the reason was at that point, it would still be over.

......

In my real experience, I’ve been with men who are aging and erections are not guaranteed sometimes. Or at least not the auto erections that I’ve experienced with younger men. I’ve learned my partner and the things that help him get going, and once I’ve found those sweet spots for him and know his body well, the erections were always great and plentiful. Still not auto erections maybe but very satisfying erections.

Currently I’m dating a man in his 30’s who has amazing erections. And although I love them and take full advantage of them, I know it isn’t me that is making his body be so responsive. He is young and that’s just normal for him at this age. If he was 50 years old, I know he wouldn’t always be like that with me (assuming we could transport my current self to his 50 year old self and see his response to me as I am now). I mean, I know he is totally turned on by me, but I also know his erections would probably be the same for any woman he was turned on by. It is special and amazing to experience his erections, but I know it is not a thing that happens only in response to me.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> See in the case of a once in awhile lack of erection, it may occur to me that this man isn’t into me, but it wouldn’t occur to me to ask if this had ever happened to him with a partner before me.
> 
> If he made it clear without me asking that this had never happened with anyone before me, I would ask why he felt that was the case and go from there.
> 
> If he said he wasn’t that into me and was into everyone before me, I’d say ok seems this would be the end for us.
> 
> If he said he doesn’t know why it had never happened before me, then I would assume there was some issue with our intimacy that wasn’t doing it for him (assuming the lack of erections kept happening). It wouldn’t really matter what the reason was at that point, it would still be over.
> 
> ......
> 
> In my real experience, I’ve been with men who are aging and erections are not guaranteed sometimes. Or at least not the auto erections that I’ve experienced with younger men. I’ve learned my partner and the things that help him get going, and once I’ve found those sweet spots for him and know his body well, the erections were always great and plentiful. Still not auto erections maybe but very satisfying erections.
> 
> Currently I’m dating a man in his 30’s who has amazing erections. And although I love them and take full advantage of them, I know it isn’t me that is making his body be so responsive. He is young and that’s just normal for him at this age. If he was 50 years old, I know he wouldn’t always be like that with me (assuming we could transport my current self to his 50 year old self and see his response to me as I am now). I mean, I know he is totally turned on by me, but I also know his erections would probably be the same for any woman he was turned on by. It is special and amazing to experience his erections, but I know it is not a thing that happens only in response to me.


And you'd be amazed, or maybe not, at the number of women who know what you just said on an intellectual level, but still have a very visceral negative reaction to it. They may be able to put on a happy face, and push through, but it still causes doubt. I think it is tied to the still very pervasive idea that men get hard with a shift in the breeze, and will bang anything above luke warm.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And you'd be amazed, or maybe not, at the number of women who know what you just said on an intellectual level, but still have a very visceral negative reaction to it. They may be able to put on a happy face, and push through, but it still causes doubt. I think it is tied to the still very pervasive idea that men get hard with a shift in the breeze, and will bang anything above luke warm.


Wouldn't this also be her reaction because she was hoping to get boned, but there's no bone? Ie: sexual frustration in the moment. Men typically also feel extreme sexual frustration in those moments.

I believe what you are saying about it, that women feel suddenly insulted, offended or insecure about it if a man can't get it up with her in any particular moment.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Agreed. Even a water drip can make a canyon if it pokes at the rock long and persistently enough. Imagine what a tiny penis could do in a million years!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:laugh:


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Maybe. I'm not sure I can say with confidence one way or the other on this. I do note that this is a form that reaches a lot of people who might otherwise never be exposed to such a message.
> 
> 
> 
> btw, the simulated rape itself was not shown beyond the suggestion of people entering her room. The show focused on the aftermath only, with no prurient flashback. Any visual simulation of the rape would be in the imagination of the viewer.




By the same logic they shouldn’t be showing war movies for the fear of promoting or normalising wars...


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----------



## Faithful Wife

Random thought: I certainly have friends and have read about many other women who don't want to have sex with their husbands. And those same friends would likely *want* to have sex with a previous hot boyfriend or an AP (wanting, not doing).

Of the people I've known personally, the main reason she wasn't turned on by her current man anymore was because she wasn't in love with him anymore.

The second reason was because of resentment. She may love him still, but she resents him so much for reasons within their marriage that she doesn't want to touch him.

The examples of resentment I've heard were usually extreme and understandable. Such as, one wife who already had 3 kids and didn't want any more and the husband also didn't want any more...the husband dragged his feet on getting a vasectomy even though he agreed he would have one. She was having horrible problems on every kind of birth control they could find, so the mutual decision was made for the vas. But like I said, husband dragged his feet, kept whining about it, wouldn't make the appointment to talk about it with the doctor. 2 years went by. During that 2 years, they had sex very few times because they weren't protected, and one of those times she got pregnant. They then had to make the horrible decision together to have an abortion, because they absolutely could not afford another kid. But SHE is the one who had to have the abortion, with HER body, something she would not have had to do at all if he had had the damn vas like they had both agreed to. She stopped having sex with him at all after that, even after he eventually had the vas. She had so much resentment by then she just couldn't touch him. Many other things were wrong in their marriage at the same time. He was basically a dead beat and couldn't even support himself, let alone her or their kids.

So this is the type of story I know of, and is not the only example. I don't know of stories where a woman is saying "oh I love current man, but Bob was just so much better/hotter/I was so much more in love with him that it makes me not want my current man or not want to do certain sexual things with him".

If I had personal examples of stories like that, I would share them.

But the only women who aren't having sex with their husbands that I know of have completely different reasons than that. True that they may, out of sexual frustration due to not having any sex at all, wish they could have sex with someone else. She is LD for him but not LD for sex. That happens a lot.


----------



## MAJDEATH

This post made me think about sexual fulfillment with my GF and my perceptions of that. We met in our late teens and she had several partners before me. Not so much for me. 

She never had an orgasm until we were 6 months into our intimate relationship. Obviously she liked it and I thought it was becuase of me. 

Later we broke up and we both saw other people. We eventually got back together and later she revealed that she had orgasms with other guys. At first I was stunned and alarmed, becuase my ego believed that it was solely due to me. But as I got older I realized that it is the woman that causes her own orgasms. 

What she experienced and learned with me was to be comfortable in her own skin and don't be embarrassed by natural reactions. Granted, based on her recollection her previous lovers were selfish, quick, and she never saw a penis up close until we met. She also could relax with me and try new positions until we hit the right spot.
I will always be her first for the big O, not necessarily the best ever, but she appreciates my assistance in her sexual development.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Wouldn't this also be her reaction because she was hoping to get boned, but there's no bone? Ie: sexual frustration in the moment. Men typically also feel extreme sexual frustration in those moments.
> 
> I believe what you are saying about it, that women feel suddenly insulted, offended or insecure about it if a man can't get it up with her in any particular moment.


That is definitely one of the sexual disparities between men and women. If she's not getting wet, but still wants it, break out the lube. If he's not getting hard, show stopper. So there is that added layer of complication for sure, but I think a lot of women, whether they will admit it or not, take a lot of pride in their sexuality, have sexual ego's, and ED is something that can hit them, along with male rejection, right in that ego, causing all kinds of self doubt.

Correct or not, I think a lot of women do tie their partners erection directly to themselves as a measure of how sexually attracted their partner is to them. They may intellectually know better, but that still doesn't stop the feelings. And when those doubts creep in, it would not be surprising if thoughts went to wondering if this happened with other women, or just her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> That is definitely one of the sexual disparities between men and women. If she's not getting wet, but still wants it, break out the lube. If he's not getting hard, show stopper. So there is that added layer of complication for sure, but I think a lot of women, whether they will admit it or not, take a lot of pride in their sexuality, have sexual ego's, and ED is something that can hit them, along with male rejection, right in that ego, causing all kinds of self doubt.
> 
> Correct or not, I think a lot of women do tie their partners erection directly to themselves as a measure of how sexually attracted their partner is to them. They may intellectually know better, but that still doesn't stop the feelings. And when those doubts creep in, it would not be surprising if thoughts went to wondering if this happened with other women, or just her.


Ok I'll take your word for it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Random thought: I certainly have friends and have read about many other women who don't want to have sex with their husbands. And those same friends would likely *want* to have sex with a previous hot boyfriend or an AP (wanting, not doing).
> 
> Of the people I've known personally, the main reason she wasn't turned on by her current man anymore was because she wasn't in love with him anymore.
> 
> The second reason was because of resentment. She may love him still, but she resents him so much for reasons within their marriage that she doesn't want to touch him.


Yup. From my life as well as the bad old days of usenet.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Well sh$t....I'll say it....I'm just the best in all ways possible. 
Anyone disagrees, that's on them....😉😉 (humor, just to be clear)


----------



## samyeagar

MAJDEATH said:


> This post made me think about sexual fulfillment with my GF and my perceptions of that. We met in our late teens and she had several partners before me. Not so much for me.
> 
> She never had an orgasm until we were 6 months into our intimate relationship. Obviously she liked it and I thought it was becuase of me.
> 
> Later we broke up and we both saw other people. We eventually got back together and later she revealed that she had orgasms with other guys. At first I was stunned and alarmed, becuase my ego believed that it was solely due to me. But as I got older I realized that it is the woman that causes her own orgasms.
> 
> What she experienced and learned with me was to be comfortable in her own skin and don't be embarrassed by natural reactions. Granted, based on her recollection her previous lovers were selfish, quick, and she never saw a penis up close until we met. She also could relax with me and try new positions until we hit the right spot.
> I will always be her first for the big O, not necessarily the best ever, but she appreciates my assistance in her sexual development.


With my wife, one thing I think I really had going for me is that she set her own orgasmic expectations of me pretty low. She would O maybe 50% of the time, never had a vaginal O, an O with oral was a rarity.

Yeah, we blew that all out of the water when I went down on her an hour into our second date...


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Precisely. But she didn’t let anyone else finish in her mouth either as far as you know that’s why you are not bothered.
> But what if she didn’t have a ‘good explanation’ why them and not you? What would be your next move?
> 
> What the other side has an issue with is, among other things, why you would want to demand an explanation in the first place: surely the ‘I just don’t like doing that anymore’ should be good enough for you to just leave this alone?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We probably wouldn't have connected well enough to go very far to begin with if she didn't have that level of enthusiasm for me.

Fortunately for our kids and grandkids, we had a very high mutual attraction and enthusiasm for each other and we have done quite a bit more with each other than our previous partners.

She has definitely gone farther with me than anyone else so no complaints.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> It is pretty hard to fathom. I mean, we knew each other, spent time with each other, grew to love each other BEFORE getting married. Like we knew each other pretty well. Thus the decision to get married. Short of bald faced lying, which is a no holds barred deal breaker, how would I not know this? Seriously. People talk about things that they find out after marriage that make no sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I did not have to find an email that sex with one of his ex was beyond mind blowing. He told me. He also told me that she cheated on him, left him and stiffed him for $200. I think my exact response was "b!tch!" (We have a good laugh about this as she is in both of our Facebook friends lists. She is a VERY large woman and more than a bit of a control freak as wife and mother. He jokes about the bullet he dodged.)
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure how he could look into a magic crystal snowball and determine what he ever would have ever again in his whole life. And I am under no illusion that I am the be all of all sexual human beings. That someone made him mac n cheese that was better than mine, or he had sex that was better than me just IS. It is just one little piece of the big puzzle of life and relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. Apparently not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You wonder what it would be like for someone not to look at things precisely the way you do? I am trying to share that. It is not working well. You do not seem to want to hear anything but agreement. Your loss. It is weird though that you project that someone must be deceiving themselves to be fine with it.



We are talking at cross purposes. 
None of has happened to you and your husband (i.e. he never gave you reasons to feel insecure about his attraction to you). 
And it’s understandable why you and others find it difficult to relate to it.

It hasn’t happened to me either (at least not in the way it is portrayed in the thread), yet I have no problem imagining what it is like to have some of those feelings and insecurities. 

What makes you think that it is me who has a problem looking at things from different points of view, other than my own? 🤨




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

samyeagar said:


> That is definitely one of the sexual disparities between men and women. If she's not getting wet, but still wants it, break out the lube. If he's not getting hard, show stopper. So there is that added layer of complication for sure, but I think a lot of women, whether they will admit it or not, take a lot of pride in their sexuality, have sexual ego's, and ED is something that can hit them, along with male rejection, right in that ego, causing all kinds of self doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct or not, I think a lot of women do tie their partners erection directly to themselves as a measure of how sexually attracted their partner is to them. They may intellectually know better, but that still doesn't stop the feelings. And when those doubts creep in, it would not be surprising if thoughts went to wondering if this happened with other women, or just her.



Definitely. Unless it jumps out and slaps her hard in the face at the very hint of potential intercourse, she will not look into its direction...as if it will turn her into stone or something 🤦🏼*♂
So I’m just used to walking around with an erection for most of the time when she’s around, bumping into things. 


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## personofinterest

"You wonder what it would be like for someone not to look at things precisely the way you do? I am trying to share that. It is not working well. You do not seem to want to hear anything but agreement. Your loss. It is weird though that you project that someone must be deceiving themselves to be fine with it. "

Isnt that why this thread has lasted so long. This very SMALL handful of man cannot fathom that everyone doesnt feel like them about "the list"?


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I'll take a shot at this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I have always wanted to experience a deep throat BJ and also being able to finish in my partner's mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> My first time was with a gal that didn't mind almost anything and finished me that way though she couldn't deep throat.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not at all bothered by physical restrictions concerning depth during a BJ so Mrs. Conan simply can't.
> 
> 
> 
> If she had finished previous partners in her mouth and enjoyed it but would not for me???
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wouldn't be heartbroken but she better pull a good rabbit  out of her hat as to why.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a generous partner with very few limits and willing to try many things I might not be interested in simply to please my mate.
> 
> 
> 
> I require at least a similar willingness from my partner and Mrs. Conan has not disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> She has also always had a difficult time with oral and she has never allowed a finish in her mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> If I found that she use to enthusiastically do it and enjoy it, she would have a bigger problem in that she lied to me but even if she told me soon into our relationship, she would need a good explanation to tell me what is up.




About swallowing...
Actually I’m certain that if I asked my wife to do that, she would (and kind of has, but it was me, who usually ‘ruins’ it and diverts at the last moment, in spite of specific instructions beforehand...I just can’t imagine it being pleasant for anybody to taste cum). 

There was a girl who did that once with me long ago and I remember it was nice, but weird. But since I didn’t really care so much for her, it didn’t bother me to let her do it. But generally, if there’s something I feel my wife is not 100% into, I lose interest for that pretty quickly.

I don’t really know what ‘deep throat’ is or what the point of it supposed to be. Is it something to do with tonsil removal?


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----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> About swallowing...
> Actually I’m certain that if I asked my wife to do that, she would (and kind of has, but it was me, who usually ‘ruins’ it and diverts at the last moment, in spite of specific instructions beforehand...I just can’t imagine it being pleasant for anybody to taste cum).
> 
> There was a girl who did that once with me long ago and I remember it was nice, but weird. But since I didn’t really care so much for her, it didn’t bother me to let her do it. But generally, if there’s something I feel my wife is not 100% into, I lose interest for that pretty quickly.
> 
> I don’t really know what ‘deep throat’ is or what the point of it supposed to be. Is it something to do with tonsil removal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Deep throat is when she takes it to the hilt in her mouth, often requiring work or training to relax the throat enough and overcome the gag reflex to accomplish.

I don't know how rare it is to find a capable lady but if I was with one, it was not on the menu.

The gal I was first with tried pretty hard but couldn't do it.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Deep throat is when she takes it to the hilt in her mouth, often requiring work or training to relax the throat enough and overcome the gag reflex to accomplish.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how rare it is to find a capable lady but if I was with one, it was not on the menu.
> 
> 
> 
> The gal I was first with tried pretty hard but couldn't do it.



Ah ok. But how do you agree on who is going to wipe off the throw up afterwards? 

I don’t see how it’s supposed to feel good. All the best sensations are around the tip. And if you need the whole thing enclosed, then surely vajayjay does a much better job.
Is it the gagging that’s supposed to be the turn on?

There’s so much I haven’t done...Must get it all done so that the next guy will have something to feel insecure about 


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----------



## oldtruck

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't really understand this. My husband happily accepts my sort of type-A robotic personality despite the fact that he likes it but not despite the fact that is specific to me. Isn't that what accepting someone for who they are IS? Do YOU like perfectly every single thing about your spouse whether or not someone else may or may not be like that?
> 
> ETA: I am thin. I am never going to be voluptuous. Some of his previous partners were. He is often highly attracted to voluptuous women. Should I get freaked out that I am never going to be attractive to him in that way or happy that he is attracted to me in MY way?


Being thin or curvy does not matter. Men can find thin and curvy women that are attractive
and find thin and curvy women that are unattractive.


----------



## Laurentium

Faithful Wife said:


> I certainly have friends and have read about many other women who don't want to have sex with their husbands. And those same friends would likely *want* to have sex with a previous hot boyfriend or an AP (wanting, not doing).
> 
> Of the people I've known personally, the main reason she wasn't turned on by her current man anymore was because she wasn't in love with him anymore.


Right. Exactly. So when he learns she's not turned on by him, he has at least reasonable grounds to suspect she's not really in love with him. That's the man's concern. Not that he's "entitled" to something. 
The only thing he's "entitled" to is an honest answer as to whether she's in love with him.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Lila said:


> Correct. Why would he marry a woman who never gave him a bj if bjs were that important to him?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


 Maybe because he thought that it was too big of a turn off for her that, out of respect for her, he grudgingly decided to sacrifice something that was important to him in the spirit of compromise.

It's only later that he finds out that BJs were NOT a turn-off for her, only BJs WITH HIM were a turn-off.

So he agreed to a compromise under false pretenses.


----------



## Laurentium

> Why would he marry a woman who never gave him a bj if bjs were that important to him?





Wolfman1968 said:


> Maybe because he thought that it was too big of a turn off for her that, out of respect for her, he grudgingly decided to sacrifice something that was important to him in the spirit of compromise.
> 
> It's only later that he finds out that BJs were NOT a turn-off for her, only BJs WITH HIM were a turn-off.
> 
> So he agreed to a compromise under false pretenses.


Well exactly. It's not (just) BJs that are important, it's honesty that's important.


----------



## personofinterest

Laurentium said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly have friends and have read about many other women who don't want to have sex with their husbands. And those same friends would likely *want* to have sex with a previous hot boyfriend or an AP (wanting, not doing).
> 
> Of the people I've known personally, the main reason she wasn't turned on by her current man anymore was because she wasn't in love with him anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Exactly. So when he learns she's not turned on by him, he has at least reasonable grounds to suspect she's not really in love with him. That's the man's concern. Not that he's "entitled" to something.
> The only thing he's "entitled" to is an honest answer as to whether she's in love with him.
Click to expand...

I think her point was that the husband ACTED in such a way that the wife no longer wanted to have sex with him. Which makes sense. A man with the kind of makeup to obsess about Act X that he doesnt get to put on the scorecard is probably the kind of husband in general who doesnt inspire intimacy.

Let me be clear: I find women who withhold sex from their husbands to be selfish, cold, and reprehensible.

But sometimes, after learning more about the husband, I can sort of understand why he repels them.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

one thing my wife did with other men that she doesnt do to me......left


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> We are talking at cross purposes.
> None of has happened to you and your husband (i.e. *he never gave you reasons* to feel insecure about his attraction to you).
> And it’s understandable why you and others find it difficult to relate to it.


I am not sure why you assume that either. That is sort of my point. We have been married almost 25 years. Of course we have done things to doubt each other. We are human. The point I was making is that my sense of security and value lies with *me*. As does his. I further opine that this attitude is healthy and even a more effective starting point than trying to get someone to soothe ones own insecurities for solving problems.



> It hasn’t happened to me either (at least not in the way it is portrayed in the thread), yet I have no problem imagining what it is like to have some of those feelings and insecurities.


I have no problem imagining it happening. I just disagree as to the best response.



> What makes you think that it is me who has a problem looking at things from different points of view, other than my own? 🤨
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because you don't seem to be reading them or considering them in your replies. You keep repeating the same opinion regardless of what anyone else says.


----------



## ReformedHubby

ConanHub said:


> Deep throat is when she takes it to the hilt in her mouth, often requiring work or training to relax the throat enough and overcome the gag reflex to accomplish.
> 
> I don't know how rare it is to find a capable lady but if I was with one, it was not on the menu.
> 
> The gal I was first with tried pretty hard but couldn't do it.


The topic of deep throating made me thing of a brief fling I had with a woman that was recently separated. The more I learned about her the more I felt kind of bad for her soon to be ex husband. She completely acknowledged that the guy was asking for BJs and for her to dress in lingerie, but she felt dirty about it when married. Then she gets separated starts having regular orgasms and now she can't get enough of sex, she had all kinds of toys and outfits, and she even bragged about teaching herself how to deep throat on a dildo, and she could do it on one that was much bigger than me. I couldn't help but think that if her ex knew what she was into now he'd be kicking himself. I think all they needed to do was work together on getting her to orgasm. Some people shut down sexually over time, others experience a 180 later in life. You honestly don't really know what will happen to whomever you choose to marry, but if its not to your liking you do have options.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> Deep throat is when she takes it to the hilt in her mouth, often requiring work or training to relax the throat enough and overcome the gag reflex to accomplish.


ETA: My bad, you said hilt, I thought shaft which can be accomplished to a degree with just mouth. To take it to the hilt, where else is it to go but the throat.


This is not quite accurate. You don't take it just in your mouth, but as the name suggests, the hilt and shaft all the way in your throat. Physically, it is not that hard. Of course, you don't get to know this until you have done it a few times. Mentally it is quite hard. You are trying to convince your body to do something that it is designed to prevent so you don't die. Once you get the hang of it, it is not too different from anal in the discomfort department in that there is none beyond original entry. Unlike anal, you can't just leave it in there without ... well that dying thing. 


I don't know how rare it is to find a capable lady but if I was with one, it was not on the menu.

The gal I was first with tried pretty hard but couldn't do it.[/QUOTE]

Well I said above that it is not that hard. But there are angles to consider. Some knowledge of physics from both people is good. But in the end, for me anyway, the key is full trust and mental comfort.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> That is definitely one of the sexual disparities between men and women. If she's not getting
> wet, but still wants it, break out the lube. If he's not getting hard, show stopper.


Boo! Not fun! It does not have to be a show stopper. 

[/quote]
So there is that added layer of complication for sure, but I think a lot of women, whether they will admit it or not, take a lot of pride in their sexuality, have sexual ego's, and ED is something that can hit them, along with male rejection, right in that ego, causing all kinds of self doubt.

Correct or not, I think a lot of women do tie their partners erection directly to themselves as a measure of how sexually attracted their partner is to them. They may intellectually know better, but that still doesn't stop the feelings. And when those doubts creep in, it would not be surprising if thoughts went to wondering if this happened with other women, or just her.[/QUOTE]

Yup. It is a bit of a parallel. No more useful or healthy IMO.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Laurentium said:


> Right. Exactly. So when he learns she's not turned on by him, he has at least reasonable grounds to suspect she's not really in love with him.


REALLY??? That is a pretty poor and low bar for what love is. Does that mean I love my Hitachi? Woa.


----------



## Married but Happy

NobodySpecial said:


> REALLY??? That is a pretty poor and low bar for what love is. Does that mean I love my Hitachi? Woa.


I agree with @Laurentium. Oh, sure, she could love me in the platonic sense, but that's not what I want in a spouse. If she's not turned on by me, I essentially have a roommate, one that is an impediment to finding love and lust elsewhere. She may like me, but love? How could i really know? 

I'm sure you _like _your Hitachi. "Love" is often used when "like" is the real meaning, or instead of "like a lot." If you don't "love" your Hitachi, perhaps it's time to move on and find another brand that you do "love"? Why continue with something/one that doesn't meet your needs and expectations?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Married but Happy said:


> I agree with @Laurentium. Oh, sure, she could love me in the platonic sense, but that's not what I want in a spouse. If she's not turned on by me, I essentially have a roommate, one that is an impediment to finding love and lust elsewhere. She may like me, but love? How could i really know?
> 
> I'm sure you _like _your Hitachi. "Love" is often used when "like" is the real meaning, or instead of "like a lot." If you don't "love" your Hitachi, perhaps it's time to move on and find another brand that you do "love"? Why continue with something/one that doesn't meet your needs and expectations?


Not turned on... like at all. Yah I am rethinking that. And please, no unkind words to my Hitachi! OR my feelings for my Hitachi. I still would not call it love in that sense though.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why you assume that either. That is sort of my point. We have been married almost 25 years. Of course we have done things to doubt each other.



Ok then what do you argue about? If you know and understand that one person can cause insecurities in another, the rest of the thread should be self explanatory and easy to understand and should not cause disagreement.
The only thing I contend is that you argue about one thing: that feelings of insecurities arise within you and NOONE disagrees about that. And other people argue about another thing: that it is possible for one person to cause insecurities in another. Something that you just agreed with as well.

Then everything gets twisted into some kind of male entitlement agenda that nobody really wants to argue about.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CharlieParker

inmyprime said:


> About swallowing...
> Actually I’m certain that if I asked my wife to do that, she would (and kind of has, but it was me, who usually ‘ruins’ it and diverts at the last moment, in spite of specific instructions beforehand...I just can’t imagine it being pleasant for anybody to taste cum).


Off topic, but is there a term for going down on her after cumming in her? Semi on topic she lets me do that but never did for anyone else.


----------



## 269370

CharlieParker said:


> Off topic, but is there a term for going down on her after cumming in her?



I’m sure I have seen it mentioned in cooking book recipes about cream pies etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Ok then what do you argue about? If you know and understand that one person can cause insecurities in another, the rest of the thread should be self explanatory and easy to understand and should not cause disagreement.
> The only thing I contend is that you argue about one thing: that feelings of insecurities arise within you and NOONE disagrees about that. And other people argue about another thing: that it is possible for one person to cause insecurities in another. Something that you just agreed with as well.
> 
> Then everything gets twisted into some kind of male entitlement agenda that nobody really wants to argue about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sigh. I don't think I am the one having a hard time understanding. cheers.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

There's a lot to say for that I guess. In younger days I saw a lot of newly divorced W and they'd say they were doing things they would never do when married. I don't know....


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

I have to ask, after this has gone round and round...
Who hasn't "finished in W mouth" or given a facial time to time to their W?

I mean really. It's not a huge deal. Who hasn't used careful cotton ropes to head boards time to time, face up and face down?

I admit these aren't common to all relationships but aren't really way out there activities. Variation is key. All know that even if won't say out loud.

And even before my marriage....these weren't uncommon activities for many partners....especially when experimenting with various chemical mood enhancers. All were willing if one would take the lead, not talk to death.

Christ almighty. Again, it's not rocket science. If your SO is in the moment the skys the limit.


----------



## cashcratebob

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> There's a lot to say for that I guess. In younger days I saw a lot of newly divorced W and they'd say they were doing things they would never do when married. I don't know....


That's a little easier to not tie to the original premise. A host of reasons why this is the case to include the husband being quite all right with the type of sex or the negativity that actually caused the divorce. Possible it ties to the original premise but who knows w/o more detail on each of those situations.

That is why I still hold that WS/AP situations provide insight on the sexual energy and response from the WS, and this provides some insight into the potential for the original premise to happen. Not every time in every case, but as the evidence mounts, more of a possibility.

All of this leading towards the proper advice to the husband/boyfriend in question. If I thought the case was his wife/gf wasn't as attracted to him I would advise him to make himself more attractive. Then w/o whining, he gets the type of sex he wants...maybe. 

I also think it is important to explore the other possibilities as laid out in this thread.


----------



## Cletus

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I have to ask, after this has gone round and round...
> Who hasn't "finished in W mouth" or given a facial time to time to their W?


Never. Not once. I have never in 35 years been anywhere near me wife's mouth nor face with anything other than my own face. 



> I mean really. It's not a huge deal. Who hasn't used careful cotton ropes to head boards time to time, face up and face down?


Sorry, gotta disappoint again. 



> Christ almighty. Again, it's not rocket science. If your SO is in the moment the skys the limit.


Ah, extrapolation from the personal to the general. The bane of talk.marriage.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

And I always say, each person/couple has their own pattern and preferences and that's most certainly OK.

I'd also just read in another thread, one forumite who said they never masturbated (sorry) in 30 plus yrs, and my apologies again; I call BS on that.


----------



## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> REALLY??? That is a pretty poor and low bar for what love is. Does that mean I love my Hitachi? Woa.


Robot love...:wink2:


----------



## ConanHub

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I have to ask, after this has gone round and round...
> Who hasn't "finished in W mouth" or given a facial time to time to their W?
> 
> I mean really. It's not a huge deal. Who hasn't used careful cotton ropes to head boards time to time, face up and face down?
> 
> I admit these aren't common to all relationships but aren't really way out there activities. Variation is key. All know that even if won't say out loud.
> 
> And even before my marriage....these weren't uncommon activities for many partners....especially when experimenting with various chemical mood enhancers. All were willing if one would take the lead, not talk to death.
> 
> Christ almighty. Again, it's not rocket science. If your SO is in the moment the skys the limit.


Hmmmm. If I drug my wife she might do things she won't consent to otherwise...hmm...


----------



## OnTheFly

ConanHub said:


> Hmmmm. If I drug my wife she might do things she won't consent to otherwise...hmm...


lol, I see a stampede of finger-waggers a-comin'……


----------



## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> Hmmmm. If I drug my wife she might do things she won't consent to otherwise...hmm...


Yeah, well, if I drug your wife, she might do things she won't consent to otherwise too ... hmm...


----------



## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> Yeah, well, if I drug your wife, she might do things she won't consent to otherwise too ... hmm...


LOL! :surprise:

I better watch it, this is a two way street and before I know it I could be doing the dishes, cleaning the whole house and waking up in a maid's uniform in the morning with a vague feeling of violation!:wink2:


----------



## CharlieParker

ConanHub said:


> I better watch it, this is a two way street and before I know it I could be doing the dishes, cleaning the whole house and waking up in a maid's uniform in the morning with a vague feeling of violation!:wink2:


Who knows, you may like it. 

Closer to topic, I always feel bad for the guys whose wives will only “fill in the blank” when she’s had “fill in the blank” amount to drink. She’ll do it, but only if (slightly) intoxicated. Ouch.


----------



## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> LOL! :surprise:
> 
> I better watch it, this is a two way street and before I know it I could be doing the dishes, cleaning the whole house and waking up in a maid's uniform in the morning with a vague feeling of violation!:wink2:


This is a safe space. You don't have to hide behind the charade any longer.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

OnTheFly said:


> lol, I see a stampede of finger-waggers a-comin'……


It didn't take long! 😊


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

CharlieParker said:


> Who knows, you may like it.
> 
> Closer to topic, I always feel bad for the guys whose wives will only “fill in the blank” when she’s had “fill in the blank” amount to drink. She’ll do it, but only if (slightly) intoxicated. Ouch.


Just imho this is one of the benefits of an ltr, (in my case marriage) if a couple can mature together...early on as responsibilities grow, ie family etc is some "young lifestyle" items (read certain indulgences) fade but great sex stays and continues to grow in many cases. In ours, and others too I'm sure. Not all of course but can.


----------



## Married but Happy

CharlieParker said:


> Closer to topic, I always feel bad for the guys whose wives will only “fill in the blank” when she’s had “fill in the blank” amount to drink. She’ll do it, but only if (slightly) intoxicated. Ouch.


This isn't necessarily a bad thing. As people get older, their hormone levels decline. That makes it harder to get turned on, and harder to get in touch with your libido. When that happens, too many thoughts get in the way of connecting to your libido, _even if you really want to_. Alcohol can quiet those noisy thoughts so that you CAN get in touch with that quieter libido. Especially if she happily and enthusiastically did those same things in the past, without alcohol.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I have to ask, after this has gone round and round...
> Who hasn't "finished in W mouth" or given a facial time to time to their W?
> 
> I mean really. It's not a huge deal. Who hasn't used careful cotton ropes to head boards time to time, face up and face down?
> 
> I admit these aren't common to all relationships but aren't really way out there activities. Variation is key. All know that even if won't say out loud.
> 
> And even before my marriage....these weren't uncommon activities for many partners....especially when experimenting with various chemical mood enhancers. All were willing if one would take the lead, not talk to death.
> 
> Christ almighty. Again, it's not rocket science. If your SO is in the moment the skys the limit.


Yes to the above but not facial. Wife says straight up no to that. Guess its degrading or some ****, because I like to degrade her ALL the time in the bedroom. But I dont push it. She's too damn OCD with my stuff anyway so anything outside of in vag is progress for her.


CharlieParker said:


> Who knows, you may like it.
> 
> Closer to topic, I always feel bad for the guys whose wives will only “fill in the blank” when she’s had “fill in the blank” amount to drink. She’ll do it, but only if (slightly) intoxicated. Ouch.


Agree. Sad that someone is that dishonest with themselves that they only "allow" themselves to do or want something when the alcohol is "making" them do it and want it.


----------



## personofinterest

> Yes to the above but not facial. Wife says straight up no to that. Guess its degrading or some ****, because I like to degrade her ALL the time in the bedroom. But I dont push it. She's too damn OCD with my stuff anyway so anything outside of in vag is progress for her.


Wow, your love for your wife leaps of the page.

But it illustrates a point.

Maybe the view a woman senses her husband has of her affects how open and trusting she can be in the bedroom. I sure wouldn't get fancy for someone who doesn't even seem to LIKE me.


----------



## CharlieParker

Married but Happy said:


> This isn't necessarily a bad thing. As people get older, their hormone levels decline. That makes it harder to get turned on, and harder to get in touch with your libido. When that happens, too many thoughts get in the way of connecting to your libido, _even if you really want to_. Alcohol can quiet those noisy thoughts so that you CAN get in touch with that quieter libido. *Especially if she happily and enthusiastically did those same things in the past, without alcohol.*


Absolutely, ain't aging grand. I literally initiate our standing Sunday afternoon dates by asking if she is ready for a "relaxing vodka". When we go to the bedroom we'll bring some wine. I does help. She likes morning sex, but it's now under 50% where she can get into it. I'm even worse.


My comment was aimed at the bolded, where it never/rarely happens at all without alcohol.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Maybe it's helpful to add for anyone gathering data, nowadays things are 90% of time w/o alcohol etc.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Middle of Everything said:


> Yes to the above but not facial. Wife says straight up no to that. Guess its degrading or some ****, *because I like to degrade her* ALL the time in the bedroom. But I dont push it. She's too damn OCD with my stuff anyway so anything outside of in vag is* progress for her.*
> 
> Agree. Sad that someone is that dishonest with themselves that they only "allow" themselves to do or want something when the alcohol is "making" them do it and want it.


This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.

Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.
> 
> Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.


EXACTLY. And this is how about 8-10 of the posters on this thread feel. No WONDER their wives don't get fancy! I'd be packing, personally.


----------



## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> EXACTLY. And this is how about 8-10 of the posters on this thread feel. No WONDER their wives don't get fancy! I'd be packing, personally.


But no REALLY, I am a great guy. I don't MEAN to degrade her. I just don't listen to what SHE finds degrading preferring she just get over herself and let me cum on her face.

EAT to be somewhat fair, they really don't GET it at all. There are hundreds of years of precedence that says this is Fine, Fine. And me too is just a bunch of whiners...


----------



## Middle of Everything

NobodySpecial said:


> This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.
> 
> Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.


Awesome! Im the poster child for male ******* in this thread I guess.

I was simply responding to a post. With examples from my own life. I dont always take the time to go over every word I post. So perhaps it came across as crass and uncaring.

My wife is ocd about her hands etc and cleanliness. Cant stick her hands in a pot of dirt to plant a flower without gloves nor go as far as to pleasure herself with her hands because its "icky" and " gross". Thats all. I was simply pointing out that its been hard in the past dealing with that. Its hurt my feelings the way she has reacted in our past.

I never said her feeling on it didnt matter. Silly stupid woman? Perhaps I was venting a little in my post. But I dont think it warranted a response like that. 

Perhaps she does deserve sympathy in having to deal with me. Perhaps I with her. I dont know.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Cletus said:


> Never. Not once. I have never in 35 years been anywhere near me wife's mouth nor face with anything other than my own face.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, gotta disappoint again.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, extrapolation from the personal to the general. The bane of talk.marriage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I can only offer my and the consensus of many....variety in this area provides increased attention to both SOs bearing in mind to try what's comfortable for both, mentally and physically. Some folks are "conditioned" is some way to go only to certain variations, and that's certainly ok and they don't need others approvals......just what works for them. 

Imho it can be influenced by early sexual experiences AND sexual experience/experiences as one matures.

In all cases Rock On!!! with what works for you and makes you happy.


----------



## MAJDEATH

In some cases I believe that changes in sexual behavior from previous partners years ago to now can be positive.

Example 1: W as a younger lady had low self-esteem, came from troubled home, undiagnosed BPD, etc. Her sexual partners would generally be very selfish at best, to taking advantage of the situation at worst. In the dark get her clothes off, demand oral on them, pound her for a minute until they cum, then tell her to get dressed and leave. And she believed that was a good relationship.

Once she was older, more comfortable in her own skin, has more self-esteem and knew what she wanted, sexual interactions were more balanced in the light, laying together fully nude, with the man spending quality time pleasuring her orally, and her making sure she cums first.

Example 2: W engaged in much more risky sexual behavior in the distant past. W and gf go see male stripper show. End up going back to hotel room with the guys. Gets in shower with 2 guys and takes turns having naked fun in the water. Then takes turns with the 3 other guys and her gf in the bed. Ends up getting a VD (treatable) from the encounter, but doesn't even know from whom.

So she used to do things and be this way with previous partners long ago before we were married, but I am very happy she doesn't do these things anymore.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

NobodySpecial said:


> This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.
> 
> Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.


Sorry, imho this isn't a poster child comment demonstrating any lack of care for SO.....it may be facetious, but doesn't mean poster is a bad person... which (seems?) like your response is portraying him as? Or can you add more to?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Regarding:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Middle of Everything View Post

Yes to the above but not facial. Wife says straight up no to that. Guess its degrading or some ****, because I like to degrade her ALL the time in the bedroom. But I dont push it. She's too damn OCD with my stuff anyway so anything outside of in vag is progress for her.

Agree. Sad that someone is that dishonest with themselves that they only "allow" themselves to do or want something when the alcohol is "making" them do it and want it.

A response I'm referring to......Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodySpecial:
This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.

Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.



personofinterest said:


> EXACTLY. And this is how about 8-10 of the posters on this thread feel. No WONDER their wives don't get fancy! I'd be packing, personally.


I don't usually disagree with POI....but at least here want to offer another possible point of view for discussion sake...

Nowhere did MOE say "W is stupid, or misguided, etc. 
Nowhere did he say he didn't care about W or her feelings.
He did state he doesn't press the facial thing and didn't show he had a problem with the fact W doesn't want to do it.

He didn't say "only my opinion counts"...
He did show he cares about W by respecting her wishes on where "things" happen.

There's not much evidence MOE is a horrible person so it may be unclear why instant persecution started.

Just a thought or two. Thanks for considering.


----------



## personofinterest

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Regarding:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Middle of Everything View Post
> 
> Yes to the above but not facial. Wife says straight up no to that. Guess its degrading or some ****, because I like to degrade her ALL the time in the bedroom. But I dont push it. She's too damn OCD with my stuff anyway so anything outside of in vag is progress for her.
> 
> Agree. Sad that someone is that dishonest with themselves that they only "allow" themselves to do or want something when the alcohol is "making" them do it and want it.
> 
> A response I'm referring to......Quote:
> Originally Posted by NobodySpecial:
> This is like THE demonstrative post on how what HE wants/thinks and feels is superior to how SHE feels. HE feels it is not degrading because of his intent. That makes her "too damn<ed> (had to be grammatically correct) OCD"... silly, stupid, misguided woman for having her own feelings.
> 
> Progress for HER? Or progress for YOU? I feel sorry for her.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't usually disagree with POI....but at least here want to offer another possible point of view for discussion sake...
> 
> Nowhere did MOE say "W is stupid, or misguided, etc.
> Nowhere did he say he didn't care about W or her feelings.
> He did state he doesn't press the facial thing and didn't show he had a problem with the fact W doesn't want to do it.
> 
> He didn't say "only my opinion counts"...
> He did show he cares about W by respecting her wishes on where "things" happen.
> 
> There's not much evidence MOE is a horrible person so it may be unclear why instant persecution started.
> 
> Just a thought or two. Thanks for considering.


If you couldn't feel the sarcasm and resentment oozing from his post about his wife, then you are not very intuitive. I'm not sure what else to say.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sorry, imho this isn't a poster child comment demonstrating any lack of care for SO.....it may be facetious, but doesn't mean poster is a bad person... which (seems?) like your response is portraying him as? Or can you add more to?


No, in fact, calling him a "bad person" was not my intent at all. (I actually think very, very few people are "bad people", but that is another story.) It read to me like an advertisement for the understanding gap that exists.


----------



## badsanta

Hi Bartender! Appletini please? 

What do you mean you will not serve me one? You served one to that other guy!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

personofinterest said:


> If you couldn't feel the sarcasm and resentment oozing from his post about his wife, then you are not very intuitive. I'm not sure what else to say.


I may be missing something or may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. Maybe more will come to light. I'm not always right. That much I do know for sure.


----------



## chillymorn69

badsanta said:


> Hi Bartender! Appletini please?
> 
> What do you mean you will not serve me one? You served one to that other guy!


Ok I’ll serve you if I can splash it on your face


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Knowing that how "good" someone is at sex is not linear or measurable as such, my husband is not the least bit threatened by knowing things that felt or were "better" with other partners. Only men with equipment fear get all freaked out about size IMO. Many of us are not size queens.


I imagine that his feeling this way has a lot more to do with his not being in a typical monogamous relationship than due to his superior manly security.

I would think that not being "jealous" of their partner's having lovers who are better at some things is pretty much a requirement for the lifestyle (as I believe it would be hard to avoid this happening).


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you explain why? On this thread I have heard things like what it means to her, that she loved the other guy more, that she was hotter for him than husband. But the fact that she did something that she no longer does does not communicate either of those things. What would cause your heart to break? I don't understand.


It does not communicate wither of those things to YOU.

It does communicate those things to OTHERS.

YOU would not feel this way. So NO ONE else is entitled to feel differently? Only YOUR interpretation is allowable?

Do all acts/behaviors communicate the same messages to ALL people that they do to you?

I don't really think you feel this way. I assume you just haven't thought through what you're saying.

I don't know where else anyone would even propose that everyone must interpret the same act/behavior the same way. 

But, for some reason, on this one topic, some people (women) think that other people (men) are insecure, whiny, evil, whatever, when they take different meanings from the same acts/behaviors than they (women) would.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> THIS man is indicating that he feels this way. I would venture most people can explain their feelings with words.


Well, we've tried using our words for 250+ pages and that hasn't worked.

So, someone tried to use feelings.

That didn't work either.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> See to me, this show and scenario is part of why men are messed up. It is makin men messed up by trying to make it seem not irrational, but it is totally irrational! I know you are not saying it is right, but it is also not rational.
> 
> God please, a woman is gang raped and the man is forced to watch, and he's not going to testify against the rapists? For ANY reason, that would be irrational. And it simply sensationalizes and normalizes the irrational crap that the boyfriend had gotten into his head, _at the expense of making it seem like a woman being gang raped is literally punishment to HER for not having more/better O's with him_. Whoever wrote the show should be sent to Antartica, jesus christ.


The boyfriend not testifying is inexcusable and vile.

The rest of it ............ 

I'm trying really hard to do myself a favor and not think about it.

Sexuality is just too messy sometimes.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> ETA: And what if she ISN'T as sexually into husband? What if that IS what is meant. Then what?


Then he gets to feel however he feels about that and leave the relationship if he chooses.

No one get's to tell him what he's *supposed* to feel.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I get what you mean about the message that they seemed to be trying to put forth.


And yet, you initially claimed that it was an attempt to *normalize* men's feelings about this, although you now claim to agree that the intent was exactly the opposite.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Buddy400 said:


> Well, we've tried using our words for 250+ pages and that hasn't worked.
> 
> So, someone tried to use feelings.
> 
> That didn't work either.



As I read this thread, I see that some viewpoints are posted by Poster A, and then in another round a subsequent Poster B will made some sort of statement which has already been addressed/refuted/countered/whatever by Poster A with no reference to that previous posting.

It makes me wonder if that perhaps either Poster A or Poster B (or both) have each other on "ignore" feature so that separate points of view keep getting reiterated with no acknowledgement of the alternative viewpoint.

It's almost looking like separate blogs running in the same thread rather than a discussion or even a debate.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get what you mean about the message that they seemed to be trying to put forth.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, you initially claimed that it was an attempt to *normalize* men's feelings about this, although you now claim to agree that the intent was exactly the opposite.
Click to expand...

After he explained more about the “message” they were trying to put forth, I can see that they did both. They sensationalized a gang rape while also trying to put forth the “message”. Overall I say it’s bad and shouldn’t be handled this way. The sensationalized rape takes away the legitimacy of the message.


----------



## JustTheWife

I've done a lot of different things with other guys that I have not done with my husband. But that's not because I refuse. He's very conservative and doesn't want to try anything with me.

I don't think it's right that there are guys out there that have experienced my body in ways that my own husband has not. Also everyone has their little ways of doing things sexually so it's like a person's little secrets. No guy out there should know you sexually more than your husband. Just my opinion.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I imagine that his feeling this way has a lot more to do with his not being in a typical monogamous relationship than due to his superior manly security.
> 
> I would think that not being "jealous" of their partner's having lovers who are better at some things is pretty much a requirement for the lifestyle (as I believe it would be hard to avoid this happening).


It is true that in poly circles people recognize jealousy as a reflection of personal insecurity. But it is not true that not being jealous or never feeling jealous is a requirement. Recognizing it, handling in healthy ways are a requirement.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> It does not communicate wither of those things *to YOU*.
> 
> It does communicate those things* to OTHERS*.


That's the rub, isn't it? The receiver is the determinant of the meaning in your view, not the feelings of the conveyor. If one of my employees is not performing at his or her required level, I could decide that s/he is communicating with actions that s/he is a lazy POS. I can go through the expensive and time consuming process of firing him or her and hiring someone else. Or I can find out what that person INTENDS To CONVEY with their actions and respond accordingly.



> YOU would not feel this way. So NO ONE else is entitled to feel differently? Only YOUR interpretation is allowable?
> 
> Do all acts/behaviors communicate the same messages to ALL people that they do to you?
> 
> I don't really think you feel this way. I assume you just haven't thought through what you're saying.
> 
> I don't know where else anyone would even propose that everyone must interpret the same act/behavior the same way.
> 
> But, for some reason, on this one topic, some people (women) think that other people (men) are insecure, whiny, evil, whatever, when they take different meanings from the same acts/behaviors than they (women) would.


I don't think men are whiny and insecure, certainly not evil!, in general. I do think that this topic tends to bring them out. It has nothing to do with whose interpretation is more valid. And it CERTAINLY does not have anything to do with rendering a man's feelings on this topic somehow invalid. It is about recognizing, when those feelings occur, what might be going on in order for said man to react in a way likely to make him feel better in the long run in an effective and healthy way.


----------



## personofinterest

It's hard to have a rational discussion about this because certain men jump to the conclusion that if I feel it's ridiculous for a man to expect his wife to fill out his checklist then I must think man or horrible and evil. That's a pretty adolescent way of responding to someone's opinion. It's interesting because women are supposed to be the ones who are too emotional to be logical with. It makes sense to me that a man would want to experience as much intimacy at with his wife as possible. It does not make sense to me that a man his going to define his marriage and how much his wife loves him based on the fact that she won't do X with him that she did with Bob 10 years ago hearing it I think that's ridiculous. To extrapolate that that means I think men in general are ridiculous or evil is, quite frankly, infant tile and stupid.


----------



## badsanta

chillymorn69 said:


> Hi Bartender! Appletini please?
> 
> What do you mean you will not serve me one? You served one to that other guy!
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I’ll serve you if I can splash it on your face
Click to expand...

Exactly! 

Some people look at various sex acts as if they are ordering items on a menu. Roman warriors used to purchase sex this way from brothels and they exchanged coins that depicted various options. 

Meanwhile sex in marriage is about celebrating love within the relationship. Occasionally a couple can manage the exchange of few sexual acts of give and take for adding variety and a little spice. But the giver decides the menu, not the other way around. If someone receiving an act of love also wants to stipulate how it is done.... that is like giving someone a birthday present, but the person receiving the gift feels entitled to pick it out for themselves. 

Some people actually do find validation by allowing their partner to choose whatever is wanted because they like making that person happy. Others do not. It is about asking if you want to be loved for who you are or for the person your partner wants you to be. If you have a partner that brings out the best in you, then perhaps you do not mind trusting that person to guide you into being a better person. Long story short, that partner is probably not going to be asking for anal or to pop in your face. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> That's the rub, isn't it? The receiver is the determinant of the meaning in your view, not the feelings of the conveyor.


Sounds exactly like the message from my decades of sexual harassment training. It's not what you intend, it's how the act is received.

I didn't like that argument then, and I don't care for it here.


----------



## personofinterest

Cletus said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the rub, isn't it? The receiver is the determinant of the meaning in your view, not the feelings of the conveyor.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds exactly like the message from my decades of sexual harassment training. It's not what you intend, it's how the act is received.
> 
> I didn't like that argument then, and I don't care for it here.
Click to expand...

Exactly!


----------



## oldtruck

chillymorn69 said:


> Ok I’ll serve you if I can splash it on your face


Are you advocating violence?

Or, is that one of your fetishes your partner will not do with you?


----------



## oldtruck

JustTheWife said:


> I've done a lot of different things with other guys that I have not done with my husband. But that's not because I refuse. He's very conservative and doesn't want to try anything with me.
> 
> I don't think it's right that there are guys out there that have experienced my body in ways that my own husband has not. Also everyone has their little ways of doing things sexually so it's like a person's little secrets. No guy out there should know you sexually more than your husband. Just my opinion.


No it is right when he has not asked to do those other things.

What is wrong is that you do not ask your husband to do other
things.

A wife does not have to say I want this sex act, I did it with lots
of other men before you, it was lots of fun.

She can say I say this in a movie, I read it in a novel, let us give 
it a try, I think we will have fun.

Also a wife does not have to say I did all these things with other
men before you it is fun, you will enjoy it too.

She should say I want to explore sex and our bodies together, 
let's do this, I do not want our sex life to be limited, it does not
make sense to limit our fun and enjoyment of and with each
other.


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> Exactly!


Eh, don't get all group-huggy. Sometimes the message really is "I'm not as into you as I was my previous partners". If you think that wouldn't be a hard message to hear, you have a lot less ego than you present in your online persona. 

I only object to the man creating this reality when it doesn't exist. I have considerable sympathy for those for whom it is the truth, even if he doesn't know for sure because his partner is too kind or too afraid to confess.


----------



## badsanta

JustTheWife said:


> I've done a lot of different things with other guys that I have not done with my husband. But that's not because I refuse. He's very conservative and doesn't want to try anything with me.
> 
> I don't think it's right that there are guys out there that have experienced my body in ways that my own husband has not. Also everyone has their little ways of doing things sexually so it's like a person's little secrets. No guy out there should know you sexually more than your husband. Just my opinion.


From reading this thread, you can see there are some men that have issues with a partner's past. The trouble is not so much what was done, but more so over a willingness to share those experiences.

Technically speaking you are guilty of the same thing with your husband, because you do not share that side of yourself with him and you have only shared it with other men. If he married you under the pretense that you had no previous partners or sexual experiences, you are withholding yourself from him. 

Find a man on this thread who is upset about his wife's sexual history? Find a man on this thread who judges his wife harshly for her sexual history? You will only find those that judge their wives because they refuse to share that part of themselves with the one they love. 

Everyone's reasons for not sharing something with a spouse are different. If you don't like something or found that it hurt you, then that is a healthy reason to not share. If you feel ashamed of yourself or things that you have done in the past, you need to ask your husband to help you let go of that shame and try to trust he will help you. If you fear he will not accept that part of yourself, then you may want to seriously consider talking to a therapist about these issues.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Buddy400

Cletus said:


> Sounds exactly like the message from my decades of sexual harassment training. It's not what you intend, it's how the act is received.
> 
> I didn't like that argument then, and I don't care for it here.


I was about to say the exact same thing.


----------



## Buddy400

Cletus said:


> Eh, don't get all group-huggy. Sometimes the message really is "I'm not as into you as I was my previous partners". If you think that wouldn't be a hard message to hear, you have a lot less ego than you present in your online persona.
> 
> I only object to the man creating this reality when it doesn't exist. I have considerable sympathy for those for whom it is the truth, even if he doesn't know for sure because his partner is too kind or too afraid to confess.


OK. That sums it all up.

Hopefully, this thread will die now.

At least for a couple more years.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I was about to say the exact same thing.


You guys don't see the difference between keeping a company safe from lawsuit and actually trying to communicate with your spouse? Can that be real?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

And this continues to be a very interesting topic 😊.

And there are some things done pre ltr not done in some folks present ltr even at beginning because of height issues / body types' matching. 

Pre M a hundred yrs ago I dated one young lady barely 5'1 / 90lbs, and another 5' 11' 125lbs and each had their "greatness" so to speak but not all were identical activities.


----------



## samyeagar

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And this continues to be a very interesting topic 😊.
> 
> And there are some things done pre ltr not done in some folks present ltr even at beginning because of height issues / body types' matching.
> 
> Pre M a hundred yrs ago I dated one young lady barely 5'1 / 90lbs, and another 5' 11' 125lbs and each had their "greatness" so to speak but not all were identical activities.


And we have already established that physical limitations, just as things that were painful, degrading are not at issue here.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> You guys don't see the difference between keeping a company safe from lawsuit and actually trying to communicate with your spouse? Can that be real?


I (and, I think , @Cletus) are talking about how a man can say something to a woman with no intent to harass, yet it still seems to count as sexual harassment if she *perceives* it to be harassment.

And this is not only an "at work" thing.


----------



## musicftw07

NobodySpecial said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was about to say the exact same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys don't see the difference between keeping a company safe from lawsuit and actually trying to communicate with your spouse? Can that be real?
Click to expand...

A double standard is a double standard. It's fair to call out the belief that it's okay to say what a person perceives about another's actions in one situation can be the determinant factor but not in another.

The double standard seems to exist because, in both situations, the female is given the power to make the determination. 

"Joe did this in the workplace and it made me uncomfortable, so I get to determine intent."

"I am the one who gets to determine the intent of my sexual dynamics with my husband through my words regardless of my actions."

The only commonality between these two scenarios is the woman has the ultimate authority on determining intent. Which I presume is by design. And I soundly reject.

I will draw whatever conclusions seem most logical in the moment based on a person's actions. You may disagree with a man doing that, but your disagreement isn't preventative or prohibitive of him doing so.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I (and, I think , @Cletus) are talking about how a man can say something to a woman with no intent to harass, yet it still seems to count as sexual harassment if she *perceives* it to be harassment.
> 
> And this is not only an "at work" thing.


Sigh.


----------



## NobodySpecial

musicftw07 said:


> A double standard is a double standard. It's fair to call out the belief that it's okay to say what a person perceives about another's actions in one situation can be the determinant factor but not in another.
> 
> The double standard seems to exist because, in both situations, the female is given the power to make the determination.
> 
> "Joe did this in the workplace and it made me uncomfortable, so I get to determine intent."


Well, I don't know what workplace sexual harassment policies you have been reading, but the intent of the supposed harasser is very specifically NOT what the policy is about. It is ABOUT the feeling of safety in the workplace. These are very different end goals. But whatever. I think the ultimate goal is for the gents on this board to feel beleaguered. Understanding is not the goal. Either divorce or misery is the future. Their call. 

Peace out.


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> You guys don't see the difference between keeping a company safe from lawsuit and actually trying to communicate with your spouse? Can that be real?


Oi. Apparently my meaning wasn't clear. Rather than blame you, I will clarify.

The sameness is that inferring intent where none was implied is problematic. Putting control of the meaning of the received message in the hand of the receiver instead of the messenger guarantees misunderstanding. 

Now in this case, combine it with the socialization skill widely taught to not hurt your partner's feelings unnecessarily, et voila.

Nothing more.


----------



## musicftw07

NobodySpecial said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A double standard is a double standard. It's fair to call out the belief that it's okay to say what a person perceives about another's actions in one situation can be the determinant factor but not in another.
> 
> The double standard seems to exist because, in both situations, the female is given the power to make the determination.
> 
> "Joe did this in the workplace and it made me uncomfortable, so I get to determine intent."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't know what workplace sexual harassment policies you have been reading, but the intent of the supposed harasser is very specifically NOT what the policy is about. It is ABOUT the feeling of safety in the workplace. These are very different end goals. But whatever. I think the ultimate goal is for the gents on this board to feel beleaguered. Understanding is not the goal. Either divorce or misery is the future. Their call.
> 
> Peace out.
Click to expand...

And here we're talking about men feeling desired in their marriages.

Same rules apply.

This thread has been trying to get women to understand why men feel the way they do in this situation, and to seek understanding from it. I have no beef with you, but it appears that you're right in that understanding us men is not, and never has been, your goal regarding your participation in this thread.

You got one thing right, though: divorce or misery, it's the man's call.


----------



## personofinterest

Bottom line, I am not sure you're going to increase the intimacy in your marriage by handing your wife a list of all the stuff she's ever done and saying "You owe me these, baby."

Like you said....your call.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Bottom line, I am not sure you're going to increase the intimacy in your marriage by handing your wife a list of all the stuff she's ever done and saying "You owe me these, baby."
> 
> Like you said....your call.


I think we all agree with this. At least I've not seen anyone suggest that handing her a list and saying you owe me is any kind of good idea.

What I have seen is that enthusiastic engagement, or lack there of on her part is a gauge of how into a man she is sexually, and that if she had a laundry list with other men that are off the table now, that it could be an indication she was more into them.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

samyeagar said:


> And we have already established that physical limitations, just as things that were painful, degrading are not at issue here.


A little inaccurate.....presently only referring to the "degrading" part, ie the continued topic discussion of difference of what's the intent between the "doer " and the "perceiver"...


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> Oi. Apparently my meaning wasn't clear. Rather than blame you, I will clarify.
> 
> The sameness is that inferring intent where none was implied is problematic. Putting control of the meaning of the received message in the hand of the receiver instead of the messenger guarantees misunderstanding.
> 
> Now in this case, combine it with the socialization skill widely taught to not hurt your partner's feelings unnecessarily, et voila.
> 
> Nothing more.


I understood you. And I disagree 500%. There is no and can be no universal acceptance of how to communicate in this manner. It just is not useful to whatever the issue is at hand. In fact, harassment law is about the fact that Jimbo not "meaning anything" is the crux of the issue. Law is about precedent and history. Historically, there is precedent for Jimbo not knowing that wolf whistles and nudey pinups are offensive and make for a hostile environment. Historically, the Jimbos of the world are hugely disproportionately male. In fact, historically, there is precedence to support that no matter how obvious it is to us what would constitute a hostile work environment, work places who *don't want to have to go through the expensive process of firing Jimbo or get sued by whomever Jimbo harassed* has had to throw up their hands and say Jimbo, for heaven's sake, just listen to her and don't do that stuff that makes her feel like her workplace is hostile, no matter what your intent is around to comment about her panti hose.

In marriage, presumably, the goal is to understand *one another*. As much as I originally felt that DH did not love me when he failed to acknowledge Valentine's Day, how did it serve me to maintain that belief when it was *false*? He hates Hallmark holidays created for the sole purpose of making money for gift sellers. I could persist in the belief that it SAYS to ME that he does not love me, whatever he actually thinks. So, I can fail with regards to accepting his feelings about corporate greed, insisting he spend money on Valentine's Day, thereby gaining some resentment by him, or I can understand him. Which one is likely to generate a win?

I always chuckle to myself when dudes at another relationship forum I read talk about how men should be the "leader" because they are natural problem solvers. Then they go on about their sexless relationships with arguments much they same as you hear on here. They wonder why their solutions don't work. Derp.


----------



## NobodySpecial

musicftw07 said:


> And here we're talking about men feeling desired in their marriages.
> 
> Same rules apply..


No, they don't.


----------



## musicftw07

NobodySpecial said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here we're talking about men feeling desired in their marriages.
> 
> Same rules apply..
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't.
Click to expand...

Sure they do. They apply to any man who applies them. If his wife doesn't provide a sufficient explanation for why she doesn't desire him as much as she did with past partners, he can divorce her regardless of whether or not that's what she wants.

Whether or not a man will actually go through with that is an entirely different matter. But the point remains for any man who decides it's a deal breaker for him.

Whether you disagree with him is irrelevant.


----------



## personofinterest

musicftw07 said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here we're talking about men feeling desired in their marriages.
> 
> Same rules apply..
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure they do. They apply to any man who applies them. If his wife doesn't provide a sufficient explanation for why she doesn't desire him as much as she did with past partners, he can divorce her regardless of whether or not that's what she wants.
> 
> Whether or not a man will actually go through with that is an entirely different matter. But the point remains for any man who decides it's a deal breaker for him.
> 
> Whether you disagree with him is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

This is really neat and all, but it's not ACTIALLY the point of the thread. No one disputes a man's right to divorce or have dealbreakers.

Here's what it comes down to: the purpose of this thread is to basically declare that once once a woman has done x act, she can well better do it for hubby. And if she won't the ONLY conceivable explanation is she doesnt want hubby, would rather have Bob, and is selfish, therefore making the husband a victim of his mean,selfish, unfair wife.,


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> This is really neat and all, but it's not ACTIALLY the point of the thread. No one disputes a man's right to divorce or have dealbreakers.
> 
> Here's what it comes down to: the purpose of this thread is to basically declare that once once a woman has done x act, she can well better do it for hubby. And if she won't the ONLY conceivable explanation is she doesnt want hubby, would rather have Bob, and is selfish, therefore making the husband a victim of his mean,selfish, unfair wife.,


Other conceivable explanations that have been readily acknowledged and accepted are physical inability, past trauma, pain, disdain for the act, previous duress. Absent those explanations, lack of desire for husband becomes a distinct possibility, even likelihood, especially if there is less than enthusiastic engagement.


----------



## personofinterest

Then why is this thread 385 pages?


----------



## bandit.45

Sex robots. 

We need more companies building more affordable sex robots.


----------



## Married but Happy

bandit.45 said:


> Sex robots.
> 
> We need more companies building more affordable sex robots.


Include a connection to Alexa, and your conversational needs will be met as well. Win-win!


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> Other conceivable explanations that have been readily acknowledged and accepted are physical inability, past trauma, pain, disdain for the act, previous duress. Absent those explanations, lack of desire for husband becomes a distinct possibility, even likelihood, especially if there is less than enthusiastic engagement.





personofinterest said:


> Then why is this thread 385 pages?


Because you (and others) keep insisting that we are saying something that we are not saying and that we've gone to great lengths to point out that we are most definitely NOT saying.



personofinterest said:


> Here's what it comes down to: the purpose of this thread is to basically declare that once once a woman has done x act, she can well better do it for hubby. And if she won't the ONLY conceivable explanation is she doesnt want hubby, would rather have Bob, and is selfish, therefore making the husband a victim of his mean,selfish, unfair wife.,


It's enough to make one give up ever hoping to have a useful conversation with others.


----------



## NobodySpecial

musicftw07 said:


> Sure they do. They apply to any man who applies them. If his wife doesn't provide a sufficient explanation for why she doesn't desire him as much as she did with past partners, he can divorce her regardless of whether or not that's what she wants.
> 
> Whether or not a man will actually go through with that is an entirely different matter. But the point remains for any man who decides it's a deal breaker for him.
> 
> Whether you disagree with him is irrelevant.


The point of the thread veered. No one is arguing that anyone may choose to divorce at any time for any reason and be well within their rights and hell, be right. No argument there. But the conversation went into bridging the gap into why I want sex, you did this for them... does not WORK for the people who want what they want and want to remain married.


----------



## Cletus

Married but Happy said:


> Include a connection to Alexa, and your conversational needs will be met as well. Win-win!


I can get my conversational needs from a sex bot met with a piece of duct tape, and for cheaper.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

D*amn!!!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Whoops double post. whew.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

This thread has derailed. A spouse, male or female, has the right to ask his spouse for certain acts that were performed for other partners, whether it's oral sex or Hallmark cards. If those acts are not provided, then an explanation is in order. If the explanation is lacking, and the issue cannot be resolved, the injured spouse is justified in pursuing a divorce, and a subsequent relationship with a partner who is more compatible. 

I remember a story years ago on SI, I think, from a BW who discovered that her husband performed oral regularly on his AP. The couple was in R, but guess what: husband didn't like performing oral on his BW. I remember he said he didn't like "juices" or something TMI like that and he refused. His BW would just have to live with it. She was heartbroken. It actually puts a mini-lump in my throat when I think about it now. The men were supportive of her position, as were the women. It's only rotten feminism that is getting in the way of rational thinking here.


----------



## Tiggy!

Tatsuhiko said:


> This thread has derailed. A spouse, male or female, has the right to ask his spouse for certain acts that were performed for other partners, whether it's oral sex or Hallmark cards. If those acts are not provided, then an explanation is in order. If the explanation is lacking, and the issue cannot be resolved, the injured spouse is justified in pursuing a divorce, and a subsequent relationship with a partner who is more compatible.
> 
> I remember a story years ago on SI, I think, from a BW who discovered that her husband performed oral regularly on his AP. The couple was in R, but guess what: husband didn't like performing oral on his BW. I remember he said he didn't like "juices" or something TMI like that and he refused. His BW would just have to live with it. She was heartbroken. It actually puts a mini-lump in my throat when I think about it now. The men were supportive of her position, as were the women. It's only rotten feminism that is getting in the way of rational thinking here.


Completely different scenario that what the OP of this thread posted. There is nothing rational about comparing these two situations.


----------



## personofinterest

If people cant understand the difference between an AP and old boyfriend Bob from 20 years ago......

That's a big part of the problem.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I love this thread. Most are discussing it as if its a black and white issue. It isn't. Many shades of gray and many reasons why it occurs. Going to the kitchen to make some popcorn. On the stove top of course. Only a beta male pops it in the microwave.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Tiggy! said:


> Completely different scenario that what the OP of this thread posted. There is nothing rational about comparing these two situations.


My first paragraph still applies. Tell me what's incorrect about it. I would not have added the example from SI if I'd known it was going to be a distraction for some people. 

The heartbreak is still applicable, however, and I'm sure that the wife from SI would have still been heartbroken to find that her husband performed acts for women 20 years ago that he refused to provide for her.


----------



## [email protected]

In the end, it doesn't matter. The marriage is toast anyway.


----------



## 269370

I find it bizarre that some women seem to be be on the one hand in agreement that partners should be willing & able and not be withholding sex/sex acts from each other in a healthy marriage yet at the same time slamming the men who are not getting it. How does this work?

We all can argue about the tone or how this subject can be approached, but the basic premise that it is not unreasonable for a guy to feel a bit short changed if he’s not getting plenty of sex & all the (reasonable) sexual acts that wife has done many times before.

He shouldn’t FORCE her to do them, but why on earth would she not WANT to do them, unless marriage is in some sort of rotting place (provided there are no health prohibiting factors).

Even if wife had not done anything before with anyone (like my wife); I would probably be pestering her for BJs, if I wanted Bjs but she was grossed out by it. 

It’s true, I would say 99.9999% of marriages will have a slight mismatch/asymmetry where wife or husband is more or less willing to do something that the other partner wouldn’t mind.

I would generally run the earth to do anything, no matter how ‘gross’ to/with my wife. Her, not so much. But that isn’t necessarily a bad thing: the guy is typically The Pursuer and maybe his interests and attraction are precisely because it’s not as easy for him to do all these things with her and the ‘gross’  reward is therefore that much more satisfying when she does let you do something uniquely gross 🥂

Which reminds me...time to do some pursuing; those enemas are not going to fill up themselves....🤦🏼*♂


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----------



## personofinterest

I'm amazed that the men do not have the capacity to distinguish between with holding sex in general and not wanting to do one particular act. It's not rocket science. Just like it's not rocket science that an affair partner that you betrayed your spouse with is different from an old boyfriend 15 years ago. Either of these men are not very bright or they are being intentionally obtoose because they so much need to be right about this period


----------



## personofinterest

[email protected] said:


> In the end, it doesn't matter. The marriage is toast anyway.


 Yep. If a man has a willing and enthusiastic partner and he can't get himself over one act from 15 years ago, then the wife deserves better. And if the wife is withholding sex, then the husband deserves better. A normal and rational person would be very excited about an enthusiastic willing partner regard less of 1 or 2 acts they don't feel comfortable doing. And no one with a normal physiological makeup could live in a sexless marriage indefinitely unless they had willpower far stronger than mine lol


----------



## MAJDEATH

I remember my fWW indirectly asking me a couple of times if I would enjoy having objects or fingers inserted in my bum. I said no and at the time I thought that really came out of left field. It was years later before I discovered that one of her OM really enjoyed that practice, so she just assumed I would as well. 

She did it for other men, but I do not want her to do that for me.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> I'm amazed that the men do not have the capacity to distinguish between with holding sex in general and not wanting to do one particular act. It's not rocket science. Just like it's not rocket science that an affair partner that you betrayed your spouse with is different from an old boyfriend 15 years ago. Either of these men are not very bright or they are being intentionally obtoose because they so much need to be right about this period




Trying not to be too ‘obtoose’ but just a straight forward question:

If your husband didn’t want to go down on you but he went down on all his previous girlfriends/wives: would you not find that a bit odd or would you not find that odd? 
I would find it a bit odd. 
Isn’t that all that there is to say on this topic?
If you DO find it odd then it’s a bit hypocritical to belittle the others who might find it odd. 
Simples.

Instead, people are just arguing about their own stuff they make up in their head and ignore the stuff everyone actually agrees on (which is the majority), out of some sort of stubbornness or ‘obtooseness’. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Yep. If a man has a willing and enthusiastic partner and he can't get himself over one act from 15 years ago, then the wife deserves better. And if the wife is withholding sex, then the husband deserves better. A normal and rational person would be very excited about an enthusiastic willing partner regard less of 1 or 2 acts they don't feel comfortable doing. And no one with a normal physiological makeup could live in a sexless marriage indefinitely unless they had willpower far stronger than mine lol



Not a single person will disagree with this. Wanna bet? 


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----------



## Laurentium

inmyprime said:


> Instead, people are just arguing about their own stuff they make up in their head and ignore the stuff everyone actually agrees on (which is the majority), out of some sort of stubbornness or ‘obtooseness’.



Yeah, always fun to drop in to this thread occasionally and watch the battles between the giant robots made out of dried grass stalks.


----------



## 269370

MAJDEATH said:


> I remember my fWW indirectly asking me a couple of times if I would enjoy having objects or fingers inserted in my bum...




Depends whose fingers and how many are going to be inserted. 
All in all I would say you should give it a go once or twice to see if you like it, before dismissing it. Don’t be so uptight about it 


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## personofinterest

My husband is attentive and kind and passionate. We make love every single day, and he is wonderful. If he didn't want to give me oral sex even though I am sure he has given it to others, I might ask why, but everything else is so wonderful, I just dismiss it and be fine. The reason I would dismiss it and be fine is because he is so amazing as a person and as a lover, I'd basically have to be a whiny little tittie baby to define our entire sex life by his refusal to do oral sex. And, quite frankly, since I am not a whiny little tittie baby, I would still be thankful to have him.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> My husband is attentive and kind and passionate. We make love every single day, and he is wonderful.



Ok so that disqualifies you from disagreeing and telling how whiny other people are  

The premise that ‘everything else is wonderful’ was never mentioned. So that’s a whole other story people seem to be hanging onto just so they have an opportunity to belittle these men.

I can guarantee you that if that was the case (that your husband would refuse to go down on you but did it with everyone else) that there is precisely 0% chance that ‘everything else is wonderful’.
There are probably men who don’t like going down in general (weirdos ), but there are NO men who would do it for some but not for the others if ‘everything else was wonderful’.
Everything else is NOT wonderful and that’s why they don’t do it. Instead of discussing which acts are withheld, those couples need to fix the parts that ‘aren’t wonderful’ or find out why they are not or how to make it wonderful.

And we should all just get along and instead of going AT each other, start going down collectively (not on each other obviously, that would be inappropriate).


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## samyeagar

inmyprime said:


> Not a single person will disagree with this. Wanna bet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Several of us already have, many times, when we explained it in exactly the same way.


----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> Ok so that disqualifies you from disagreeing and telling how whiny other people are
> 
> The premise that ‘everything else is wonderful’ was never mentioned. So that’s a whole other story people seem to be hanging onto just so they have an opportunity to belittle these men.
> 
> I can guarantee you that if that was the case (that your husband would refuse to go down on you but did it with everyone else) that there is precisely 0% chance that ‘everything else is wonderful’.
> There are probably men who don’t like going down in general (weirdos ), but there are NO men who would do it for some but not for the others if ‘everything else was wonderful’.
> Everything else is NOT wonderful and that’s why they don’t do it. Instead of discussing which acts are withheld, those couples need to fix the parts that ‘aren’t wonderful’ or find out why they are not or how to make it wonderful.
> 
> And we should all just get along and instead of going AT each other, start going down collectively (not on each other obviously, that would be inappropriate).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then that should be the focus. If your sex life in general is not good, then it's kind of....weird to make it all about one act. The one act isn't the issue. Get the sex life in general in shape and either A. The one act won't seem like a big deal or B. The one act might get some airtime.

Bottom line, this thread was started with the idea that if Julie did X with Bob 10 years ago, then unless it was traumatic or caused injury, Julie OWES it to her husband.

The reason women are not happy here is because of the "OWE" attitude. Drop THAT and maybe we'll get somewhere. And let's not kid ourselves. The whole "she doesn't love me as much" thing is really just guilt and manipulation to mask the idea that a man thinks he is owed. It's a variation of the old high school back seat of the car manpulation: "If you LOOOOVE me you will! My balls will turn blue and explode! It's science!"


----------



## musicftw07

NobodySpecial said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they do. They apply to any man who applies them. If his wife doesn't provide a sufficient explanation for why she doesn't desire him as much as she did with past partners, he can divorce her regardless of whether or not that's what she wants.
> 
> Whether or not a man will actually go through with that is an entirely different matter. But the point remains for any man who decides it's a deal breaker for him.
> 
> Whether you disagree with him is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> The point of the thread veered. No one is arguing that anyone may choose to divorce at any time for any reason and be well within their rights and hell, be right. No argument there. But the conversation went into bridging the gap into why I want sex, you did this for them... does not WORK for the people who want what they want and want to remain married.
Click to expand...

I don't see that it did. My point was that men make decisions about how their wives feel about them if their wives will not engage in a sex act with them that they enthusiastically engaged in with other partners before him. Where it seemed like you disagreed was by implying that men don't have a right to feel a certain way about it. I'm saying that they do.

Based on that feeling, a man might make any number of decisions. Stay in misery, shrug it off and be happy, or divorce. But the choice is his to make, and my argument is that his wife's reaction to his feelings would be a large factor in the health of the marriage going forward: Does she tell him to get over it? Does she provide a reasonable explanation? Does she reevaluate and give it a try with her husband? Does she directly state that yes, she doesn't desire him as much as she did men from her past?

Telling any spouse to "get over it" and dismiss their feelings is not a wise decision if the continuation of the marriage is the most desirable outcome. Any self-integrated man would probably not settle for that. Hell, a self-integrated woman wouldn't settle for that either, and neither should she.

That is why I'm saying it would behoove women to not dismiss their husband's feelings in this area. I'm not saying she has to perform a sex act she doesn't want to do either. She needs to *communicate*, not dismiss. Dismissal of feelings breeds resentment which is not healthy towards the marriage. Just because he may want to stay in the marriage now doesn't mean he'll want to later after continuous dismissal of his feelings.

That is the risk wives take when they tell their husbands to just "get over it". So feel free to dismiss our feelings, and go ahead and apply it to your own relationships. Just know that doing so will damage the relationship.

Communicate. Don't dismiss.


----------



## personofinterest

> Does she provide a reasonable explanation?


Who gets to decide if the explanation is reasonable? The men, I assume



> Does she reevaluate and give it a try with her husband?


I believe an earlier poster referred to this as "taking one for the team". Do you find that healthy?

As far as dismissal goes, I would never dismiss MY HUSBAND's feelings about anything, even if it initially made no sense to me. Even if it NEVER made sense to me, I would not dismiss it or shame him for having the feeling. He is my husband and I love him

I am not married to any of the men on TAM. I don't have to treat them the way I would treat my husband. It would* "behoove" *the men on here to understand that while their wives may empathize with them, THEIR wives would likely resist the "you owe me or you must not love me" routine just as much as we TAM women do.

Bottom line, you get to feel however you want to feel. And if you want to decide your wife doesn't desire you and divorce because she won't use a sex swing or do anal or have sex on the ferris wheel. More power too ya. Just understand that, especially if you have children, divorcing your wife because she won't let you in the back door MIGHT be seen as a bit of an overreaction.


----------



## bandit.45

Married but Happy said:


> Include a connection to Alexa, and your conversational needs will be met as well. Win-win!


It is a win-win...especially for wives. Think about it. These new sex-bots coming out could be the perfect solution for tired wives who love their husbands but who can't stand having sex with them anymore. 

No more laying under your smelly, overweight, man-boobed hubby while he sweats and grunts over you. Introduce him to his new robo-lover...a Japanese Hentai looking elf who he can throw around, bend into impossible positions and fornicate with to his heart's content while the wife gets to lounge in the den, relaxing and watching her Doughton Abbey reruns. No jealousy there....because the other woman isn't real.


----------



## personofinterest

> wives who love their husbands but who can't stand having sex with them anymore.


Um...I think this is a contradiction in terms. I think any wife who deprives her husband of sex is pretty unloving.


----------



## Tiggy!

bandit.45 said:


> It is a win-win...especially for wives. Think about it. These new sex-bots coming out could be the perfect solution for tired wives who love their husbands but who can't stand having sex with them anymore.
> 
> No more laying under your smelly, overweight, man-boobed hubby while he sweats and grunts over you. Introduce him to his new robo-lover...a Japanese Hentai looking elf who he can throw around, bend into impossible positions and fornicate with to his heart's content while the wife gets to lounge in the den, relaxing and watching her Doughton Abbey reruns. No jealousy there....because the other woman isn't real.


Plus the male sex bots are looking really good (just don't do anything with you wouldn't do with your husband :wink2.


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> My husband is attentive and kind and passionate. We make love every single day, and he is wonderful. If he didn't want to give me oral sex even though I am sure he has given it to others, I might ask why, but everything else is so wonderful, I just dismiss it and be fine. The reason I would dismiss it and be fine is because he is so amazing as a person and as a lover, I'd basically have to be a whiny little tittie baby to define our entire sex life by his refusal to do oral sex. And, quite frankly, since I am not a whiny little tittie baby, I would still be thankful to have him.


All you proved is that oral sex isn't very important to you.

What if it was? Would your husband still be an amazing lover? What if you were one of the majority of women who need more than intercourse?


----------



## personofinterest

Cletus said:


> All you proved is that oral sex isn't very important to you.
> 
> What if it was? Would your husband still be an amazing lover?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I hope you income isn't dependent upon being part of the psychic friends network.

I LOVE when he goes down on me. He is amazing at it, and now that I am in the menopause universe, it is the fastest way to....be ready. So sorry. Wrong.

BUT without going into graphic detail, there are so many things he is mind-blowingly good at, if oral sex wasn't part of the repertoire, I'm not silly enough to leave agood thing or resentfully stay and punish a good thing just because of that.

Again, sorry, but you are incorrect. period.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tiggy! said:


> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a win-win...especially for wives. Think about it. These new sex-bots coming out could be the perfect solution for tired wives who love their husbands but who can't stand having sex with them anymore.
> 
> No more laying under your smelly, overweight, man-boobed hubby while he sweats and grunts over you. Introduce him to his new robo-lover...a Japanese Hentai looking elf who he can throw around, bend into impossible positions and fornicate with to his heart's content while the wife gets to lounge in the den, relaxing and watching her Doughton Abbey reruns. No jealousy there....because the other woman isn't real.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus the male sex bots are looking really good (just don't do anything with you wouldn't do with your husband <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>).
Click to expand...

A few of us women have already said how we are glad the sex bot revolution will help weed out the men who aren’t actually appropriate for human partners. 

Men who are way into their sex bots can be happy and will most likely remain single.

However, women will have the option of sex bots too, even though most women will just use them as sex toys rather than a spouse replacement.

Though what will happen then is that men will be so insecure about the size of a male sex bot’s penis that even though they have their own sex bots to play with, they will be making posts on forums asking women if it’s true that the sex bot peens are better than flesh and blood peens. And even though flesh and blood will always be better, a lot of women will still prefer bigger over real.

I don’t know why some men seem to try to “threaten” women with the coming sex bot revolution, like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us”. Bwah ha hahaha hahahah! Oh yeah. We are so worried.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> period.



That wouldn’t stop me going down either.
But wife doesn’t always let me.

How long have you been married/together?
People who have had previous marriages/experiences and meet later in life are more discerning and more capable of finding a better suited partner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Tiggy! said:


> Plus the male sex bots are looking really good (just don't do anything with you wouldn't do with your husband :wink2.



Yes, I hope they can make some that are good at providing a good income otherwise they won’t be of much use to a lot of people 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> Does she provide a reasonable explanation?
> 
> 
> 
> Who gets to decide if the explanation is reasonable? The men, I assume
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does she reevaluate and give it a try with her husband?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe an earlier poster referred to this as "taking one for the team". Do you find that healthy?
> 
> As far as dismissal goes, I would never dismiss MY HUSBAND's feelings about anything, even if it initially made no sense to me. Even if it NEVER made sense to me, I would not dismiss it or shame him for having the feeling. He is my husband and I love him
> 
> I am not married to any of the men on TAM. I don't have to treat them the way I would treat my husband. It would* "behoove" *the men on here to understand that while their wives may empathize with them, THEIR wives would likely resist the "you owe me or you must not love me" routine just as much as we TAM women do.
> 
> Bottom line, you get to feel however you want to feel. And if you want to decide your wife doesn't desire you and divorce because she won't use a sex swing or do anal or have sex on the ferris wheel. More power too ya. Just understand that, especially if you have children, divorcing your wife because she won't let you in the back door MIGHT be seen as a bit of an overreaction.
Click to expand...

Since the man in the one being rejected, yes. He is the one who gets to decide if it's reasonable.

I did not say "taking one for the team". I said "if she decides to give it a try". The choice would be HERS to make of her own volition out of a genuine desire to do so.

Is it possible for you to see your own gender as never being a victim of anything?

And neither did I say "you owe me sex". What I said was COMMUNICATE. You don't owe your husband anal. You do owe him communication.

Doesn't matter what other people think about his decision. Shaming tactics don't work on me. If I'm not satisfied in my relationship, I'll bail. I can still love my child at the same time. (Which is exactly what I did when I divorced my XWW.)


----------



## personofinterest

> Is it possible for you to see your own gender as never being a victim of anything?


So predictable. If you look around, you see that I call out women on bad behavior all the time. And I am certainly not a victim.

But hey, keep reciting those Reddit mantras.

And hey, of your kids were fine with you divorcing your wife because she wouldn't do X sex act, that's fine. I suspect, however, that there was more to it than "she wouldn't do X and her explanation wasn't reasonable."


----------



## musicftw07

Faithful Wife said:


> like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us


This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.

All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.


----------



## personofinterest

musicftw07 said:


> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.


I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.

Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.

Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> Is it possible for you to see your own gender as never being a victim of anything?
> 
> 
> 
> So predictable. If you look around, you see that I call out women on bad behavior all the time. And I am certainly not a victim.
> 
> But hey, keep reciting those Reddit mantras.
> 
> And hey, of your kids were fine with you divorcing your wife because she wouldn't do X sex act, that's fine. I suspect, however, that there was more to it than "she wouldn't do X and her explanation wasn't reasonable." <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>
Click to expand...

As long as we're both stereotyping, I'll share that I never go to Reddit. 😂

No, I divorced my XWW because she was a cheater. But our sex life had been in decline for a while prior to that, and I tried damned hard to reignite it. I had one foot out the door by the time I discovered her affair.

I could have R'd, but didn't. I knew I'd never get good sex with her. So I got good sex elsewhere.

I tried to communicate about it. She didn't. Cheating was the icing on the cake. To the curb she went. But by the time that happened any remaining love I had for her was dead.

It seems like the idea of men maintaining their sexual agency even while married is disturbing to you.


----------



## Cletus

personofinterest said:


> I hope you income isn't dependent upon being part of the psychic friends network.


Since civility seems more and more optional for you, and since all Right Thinking Folks are required to see this argument Your Way or be juvenile pouty spoiled brats, and since I actually have no dog in this hunt, good day.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.
> 
> Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.
> 
> Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.
Click to expand...

I do agree with you here. Both that it says more about the wife and about having sex in general, not one specific act.

But for men, the end result is the same regardless of reason or motive. If divorce would eviscerate him financially and his wife won't put out, then a sex bot would be a great alternative.

It would also be a great alternative for any sex acts his wife doesn't want to do with him. No anal? No problem! My electric waifu never says no!

Plus it vibrates.


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
Click to expand...

I was talking about men who think they are entitled to sex and women yet they never seem to be having sex. There is a problem with men who feel entitled and women tend to stay away from them sexually. The men who truly are not F-able should just go get their sex bot - - at least that way they would actually be entitled to having sex with it since they purchased it.

These would usually be the same men who think it is actually a “threat” to women that the sex bots are coming. But it’s actually a help to women because it will cull out the men who don’t deserve human women. 

I am not speaking for the wife of any man on this thread. I don’t know if they think their husbands are F-able or not. I do know that men who feel entitled in general are not attractive to most women.


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.
> 
> Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.
> 
> Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do agree with you here. Both that it says more about the wife and about having sex in general, not one specific act.
> 
> But for men, the end result is the same regardless of reason or motive. If divorce would eviscerate him financially and his wife won't put out, then a sex but would be a great alternative.
> 
> It would also be a great alternative for any sex acts his wife doesn't want to go with him? No anal? No problem! My electric waifu never says no!
> 
> Plus it vibrates.
Click to expand...

When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.


----------



## Tiggy!

inmyprime said:


> Yes, I hope they can make some that are good at providing a good income otherwise they won’t be of much use to a lot of people
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's only going to affect stay at home spouses.


----------



## musicftw07

Faithful Wife said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.
> 
> Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.
> 
> Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do agree with you here. Both that it says more about the wife and about having sex in general, not one specific act.
> 
> But for men, the end result is the same regardless of reason or motive. If divorce would eviscerate him financially and his wife won't put out, then a sex but would be a great alternative.
> 
> It would also be a great alternative for any sex acts his wife doesn't want to go with him? No anal? No problem! My electric waifu never says no!
> 
> Plus it vibrates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.
Click to expand...

You must have never watched Archer. The vast majority of that post was a joke.

It's not meant to be a threat. It's meant to state an alternative. I'm sure you have dildos and vibrators, yes? A sex bot for men wouldn't be any different to me.

From a male's perspective, it doesn't matter what women think about men having sex bots. What matters is, is he sexually satisfied with said bot?

And considering that a lot of women come here complaining that their men would rather watch porn than have sex with them, I would posit that women should have at least some mild concern about their husbands preferring a sex bot that gives them an outlet for the things they want that their wives won't do.

No, a sex bot doesn't provide companionship, friendship, or intimacy. But women don't look for those things when they buy a dildo or vibrator. All they use them is sexual release. So would be a sex bot for men.

You can have all the opinions about it in the world. It won't stop men from using them who see it as a better alternative to rejection, either by their wives or in general.


----------



## Tiggy!

Faithful Wife said:


> When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.


It's like they're planning on building a silicon harem.


----------



## musicftw07

Tiggy! said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.
> 
> 
> 
> It's like they're planning to build a silicon harem.
Click to expand...

No different than a rubber **** carousel. 😁

And besides, both sound fun!


----------



## 269370

I cannot possibly believe women can be that gullible that men are serious when they joke about substituting human women with sex bots?? 🤦🏼*♂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.
> 
> Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.
> 
> Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do agree with you here. Both that it says more about the wife and about having sex in general, not one specific act.
> 
> But for men, the end result is the same regardless of reason or motive. If divorce would eviscerate him financially and his wife won't put out, then a sex but would be a great alternative.
> 
> It would also be a great alternative for any sex acts his wife doesn't want to go with him? No anal? No problem! My electric waifu never says no!
> 
> Plus it vibrates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You must have never watched Archer. The vast majority of that post was a joke.
> 
> It's not meant to be a threat. It's meant to state an alternative. I'm sure you have dildos and vibrators, yes? A sex bot for men wouldn't be any different to me.
> 
> From a male's perspective, it doesn't matter what women think about men having sex bots. What matters is, is he sexually satisfied with said bot?
> 
> And considering that a lot of women come here complaining that their men would rather watch porn than have sex with them, I would posit that women should have at least some mild concern about their husbands preferring a sex bot that gives them an outlet for the things they want that their wives won't do.
> 
> No, a sex bot doesn't provide companionship, friendship, or intimacy. But women don't look for those things when they buy a dildo or vibrator. All they use them is sexual release. So would be a sex bot for men.
> 
> You can have all the opinions about it in the world. It won't stop men from using them who see it as a better alternative to rejection, either by their wives or in general.
Click to expand...

Are you actually reading what I’m saying? I’m saying yes men who actually see a sex bot as an alternative to real women should hurry fast and go be with their sex bots. It helps women, not hurts them. It helps us by men taking themselves out of our pool on their own. 

Please don’t pretend that women will be threatened by this. That attitude would only come from a man who doesn’t understand women at all.


----------



## 269370

Tiggy! said:


> That's only going to affect stay at home spouses.




I was under the impression that those are the ones who reject their partners sexually the most? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> Bottom line, this thread was started with the idea that if Julie did X with Bob 10 years ago, then unless it was traumatic or caused injury, Julie OWES it to her husband.
> 
> The reason women are not happy here is because of the "OWE" attitude. Drop THAT and maybe we'll get somewhere.


This is it. Women, obviously, trigger at any idea of being 'owed'. I can see why that might be, given the following.



personofinterest said:


> And let's not kid ourselves. The whole "she doesn't love me as much" thing is really just guilt and manipulation to mask the idea that a man thinks he is owed.


I think, and of course you would disagree, that women are so triggered by this idea that they tend to see it in places where it doesn't exist. But then, that's kind of what "triggering" is. 



personofinterest said:


> It's a variation of the old high school back seat of the car manpulation: "If you LOOOOVE me you will! My balls will turn blue and explode! It's science!"


I can see why memories of this sort of behavior by men (and, yes, it does happen all the time) would lead to women responding as they do.

But, taking the situation out of the high school / first experiences environment (where it's very unfair to ask a girl to have sex with you if she hasn't become sexually active and pressure her with the "if you loved me" crap) and putting it into a later stage of life (where a woman routinely has sex with men she is in relationships with after a certain level of attachment has been achieved), it IS sort of true isn't it? 

If you'd been dating a guy for a year and had had sex with every other man you'd dated for a year but wouldn't have sex with him, it WOULD probably mean that you didn't actually love him.


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> This is it. Women, obviously, trigger at any idea of being 'owed'. I can see why that might be, given the following.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think, and of course you would disagree, that women are so triggered by this idea that they tend to see it in places where it doesn't exist. But then, that's kind of what "triggering" is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why memories of this sort of behavior by men (and, yes, it does happen all the time) would lead to women responding as they do.
> 
> 
> 
> But, taking the situation out of the high school / first experiences environment (where it's very unfair to ask a girl to have sex with you if she hasn't become sexually active and pressure her with the "if you loved me" crap) and putting it into a later stage of life (where a woman routinely has sex with men she is in relationships with after a certain level of attachment has been achieved), it IS sort of true isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> If you'd been dating a guy for a year and had had sex with every other man you'd dated for a year but wouldn't have sex with him, it WOULD probably mean that you didn't actually love him.




I think it’s even more complicated than that; sometimes I get the feeling that men on TAM are basically viewed by some women as everything that has previously gone wrong in their marriages. Perhaps because some of the things said remind them of some of the traits of their ex partners, I’m not sure.
Otherwise I cannot often explain the hostility, shaming and belittling where it’s not really warranted and where otherwise there’s agreement on majority of issues. Yet one unfortunate turn of the phrase is picked and picked apart and made into this horrible crime that all men are suddenly guilty of.
Weird.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

musicftw07 said:


> *Telling any spouse to "get over it" and dismiss their feelings *is not a wise decision if the continuation of the marriage is the most desirable outcome. Any self-integrated man would probably not settle for that. Hell, a self-integrated woman wouldn't settle for that either, and neither should she.
> 
> That is why I'm saying it would behoove women to not dismiss their husband's feelings in this area. I'm not saying she has to perform a sex act she doesn't want to do either. She needs to *communicate*, not dismiss. Dismissal of feelings breeds resentment which is not healthy towards the marriage. Just because he may want to stay in the marriage now doesn't mean he'll want to later after continuous dismissal of his feelings.
> 
> That is the risk wives take when they tell their husbands to just "get over it". So feel free to dismiss our feelings, and go ahead and apply it to your own relationships. Just know that doing so will damage the relationship.
> 
> Communicate. Don't dismiss.


This is the crux of the issue.


----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> I cannot possibly believe women can be that gullible that men are serious when they joke about substituting human women with sex bots?? 🤦🏼*♂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not you, because you are normal, you seem to love and respect your wife, and you don't seem to have a RedPill/incel chip on your shoulder about women. You are healthy and would therefore prefer a living, breathing wife.

But for these men who feel entitled to sex, entitled to all acts, and don't seem to like anyone with a vagina....not only would they be fine with a mechanical one....they'd be doing womankind a favor.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Not you, because you are normal, you seem to love and respect your wife, and you don't seem to have a RedPill/incel chip on your shoulder about women. You are healthy and would therefore prefer a living, breathing wife.
> 
> 
> 
> But for these men who feel entitled to sex, entitled to all acts, and don't seem to like anyone with a vagina....not only would they be fine with a mechanical one....they'd be doing womankind a favor.



Haha, don’t know who those men are. Never personally met one of those who prefer or even compare a mechanical vagina to a real one.

Don’t know about healthy...me and wife do a lot of crazy things together sometimes sexually other people might think of as not entirely healthy/vanilla. (Usually mostly my ideas). But I think I’m lucky to have one who doesn’t shut me down (most of the time anyway). I have no idea whether I could remain sane in a marriage where every sexual encounter would be met with rejection. So I try to give a bit of benefit of the doubt if there are men in a different position from my own, especially if they probably didn’t express themselves properly or it was misunderstood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

inmyprime said:


> Haha, don’t know who those men are. Never personally met one of those who prefer or even compare a mechanical vagina to a real one.
> 
> Don’t know about healthy...me and wife do a lot of crazy things together sometimes sexually other people might think of as not entirely healthy/vanilla. (Usually mostly my ideas). But I think I’m lucky to have one who doesn’t shut me down (most of the time anyway). I have no idea whether I could remain sane in a marriage where every sexual encounter would be met with rejection. So I try to give a bit of benefit of the doubt if there are men in a different position from my own, especially if they probably didn’t express themselves properly or it was misunderstood.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hey, you don't have to be vanilla to be healthy 

Besides, we all know there's a middle ground between "anything goes" and "every sexual encounter met with rejection." That is part of the issue. Apparently there are people who cannot see the middle ground or be happy with anything less than "anything goes"....to the point that they defend the choice to dump a family because wifey wouldn't use candle wax.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know why some men seem to try to “threaten” women with the coming sex bot revolution, like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us”. Bwah ha hahaha hahahah! Oh yeah. We are so worried.


I don't think the sexbots are only a threat to women. 

Sure, men using sexbots instead of real women are men not available to be in relationships with women and that would suck for many women (not you personally as you'll always have choices to choose from).

But, it's also a threat to men. Using sexbots (like porn) will reduce their desire to try for relationships with real women and their life will be less rewarding as a result. 

I think sexbots are a threat to relationships between men and women. 

Anything that makes relationships with women more difficult will make the sexbots look better.

I would guess that sexbot's penis size issues would be the same as dildo size is now for men (and I don't know how big of an issue that is).


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> (and I don't know how big of an issue that is).



It’s not an issue!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## musicftw07

Faithful Wife said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This reads like a tacit admission that women who don't have sex with their husband do consider them to be unF-able.
> 
> All the more reason to ditch her and get the sex bot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a woman's refulsal to have sex with her husband says anything about the man - not most of the time.
> 
> Most of the time a woman who refuses to have sex with her husband is just selfish and self-centered and thinks the man should just get over it.
> 
> Notice I mean not having sex with him IN GENERAL, not a refusal to do one specific act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do agree with you here. Both that it says more about the wife and about having sex in general, not one specific act.
> 
> But for men, the end result is the same regardless of reason or motive. If divorce would eviscerate him financially and his wife won't put out, then a sex but would be a great alternative.
> 
> It would also be a great alternative for any sex acts his wife doesn't want to go with him? No anal? No problem! My electric waifu never says no!
> 
> Plus it vibrates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When it is stated as a sort of threat - see, Barbie will let me in her ass, you should feel worried that I’ll like her better! - just makes men sound like creepy weirdos who don’t deserve a human woman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You must have never watched Archer. The vast majority of that post was a joke.
> 
> It's not meant to be a threat. It's meant to state an alternative. I'm sure you have dildos and vibrators, yes? A sex bot for men wouldn't be any different to me.
> 
> From a male's perspective, it doesn't matter what women think about men having sex bots. What matters is, is he sexually satisfied with said bot?
> 
> And considering that a lot of women come here complaining that their men would rather watch porn than have sex with them, I would posit that women should have at least some mild concern about their husbands preferring a sex bot that gives them an outlet for the things they want that their wives won't do.
> 
> No, a sex bot doesn't provide companionship, friendship, or intimacy. But women don't look for those things when they buy a dildo or vibrator. All they use them is sexual release. So would be a sex bot for men.
> 
> You can have all the opinions about it in the world. It won't stop men from using them who see it as a better alternative to rejection, either by their wives or in general.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you actually reading what I’m saying? I’m saying yes men who actually see a sex bot as an alternative to real women should hurry fast and go be with their sex bots. It helps women, not hurts them. It helps us by men taking themselves out of our pool on their own.
> 
> Please don’t pretend that women will be threatened by this. That attitude would only come from a man who doesn’t understand women at all.
Click to expand...

I am reading what you're saying. And I'm saying I disagree with it.

If you take out intimacy, companionship, friendship, emotional connections, all of that stuff and focus on nothing but the pure mechanics, men can be functionally and mechanically replaced sexually by dildos and vibrators. In fact, I would posit that a subset of women prefer what their Hitachi can do for them over what their husband or partner can do for them.

All legit, right?

So I'm saying that there will be subset of men who prefer their sex bot over what women can do for them. And it would be literally no different than women who prefer their toys.

Unless I should start viewing women through the lens of "if you prefer a sex toy then you're a loser and a degenerate and I wouldn't have anything to do with you"? Turnabout is always fair play.

By the way, feminists are trying to ban sex robots because they say they're misogynistic. The act of a man trying to help you out by taking himself out of your dating pool and getting a sex robot is somehow harmful to women. That doesn't seem like an act of a group of people who don't care. That seems like an act of people who are scared at the implications.


----------



## personofinterest

> So I'm saying that there will be subset of men who prefer their sex bot over what women can do for them. And it would be literally no different than women who prefer their toys.


I completely agree. And I would want to know which men prefer a machine so I could avoid them. Just like I am sure men would rather know which women prefer a wand so they can avoid them too.

I don't really give a rat's ass what feminazis think of sexbots. They basically hate men in general, and I have no respect for anyone who is small and sad enough to hate an entire gender. Their opinion on anything literally matters zero to me.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Okay, so I'm admittedly not sure what a sex bot is, or just what capability one may have, either in the current state or the future state of the art in simulated sex technology. ...
.... but....
I don't think it really matters when I say I have a hard time seeing sexbots as a new threat. 

We already have far too many men incapable of fulfilling relationships due to porn (to be clear, this is not an anti-porn rant, I'm laying the responsibility on the fellas, not the medium). As far as I see it, we already have enough no-commitment, low-energy, sexual alternatives that anybody prone to this sort of laziness or social ineptness has already been grabbed. Is a sexbot going to grab otherwise healthy people when free and ubiquitous HD porn hasn't? I find that hard to believe. 

No, we're pretty safe. At least until we can actually hook up with Minuet on the holodeck, but that doesn't come until the 24th Century


----------



## personofinterest

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Okay, so I'm admittedly not sure what a sex bot is, or just what capability one may have, either in the current state or the future state of the art in simulated sex technology. ...
> .... but....
> I don't think it really matters when I say I have a hard time seeing sexbots as a new threat.
> 
> We already have far too many men incapable of fulfilling relationships due to porn (to be clear, this is not an anti-porn rant, I'm laying the responsibility on the fellas, not the medium). As far as I see it, we already have enough no-commitment, low-energy, sexual alternatives that anybody prone to this sort of laziness or social ineptness has already been grabbed. Is a sexbot going to grab otherwise healthy people when free and ubiquitous HD porn hasn't? I find that hard to believe.
> 
> No, we're pretty safe. At least until we can actually hook up with Minuet on the holodeck, but that doesn't come until the 24th Century


First, major props for the TNG reference.

Second....see, the reason you aren't really into the whole sexbots topic is because you still actually like women.

It's the men who got burned by some Sally somewhere and have decided the "healthy" thing to do is write us all off who seem to think it's big and bad to wave around the sex bot threat.

It's the male version of the whole uber-feminism fish/bicycle thing.


----------



## musicftw07

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know why some men seem to try to “threaten” women with the coming sex bot revolution, like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us”. Bwah ha hahaha hahahah! Oh yeah. We are so worried.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the sexbots are only a threat to women.
> 
> Sure, men using sexbots instead of real women are men not available to be in relationships with women and that would suck for many women (not you personally as you'll always have choices to choose from).
> 
> But, it's also a threat to men. Using sexbots (like porn) will reduce their desire to try for relationships with real women and their life will be less rewarding as a result.
> 
> I think sexbots are a threat to relationships between men and women.
> 
> Anything that makes relationships with women more difficult will make the sexbots look better.
> 
> I would guess that sexbot's penis size issues would be the same as dildo size is now for men (and I don't know how big of an issue that is).
Click to expand...

In theory, I agree with you. It probably would make relationships more difficult.

But look at the alternative. Unsuccessful men in the dating pool are shamed and ridiculed. Men who are unilaterally denied sex or sex acts by their partner aren't given much empathy. To them, relationships are already incredibly difficult. What further incentive do they have to try when there's a perfectly viable alternative available?

If a guy wants to go home and get kinky with his sex robot, who am I to look down on him? No different than a woman going home and getting down with her Hitachi and horse dildo. 

Any I've always rejected the idea that people MUST couple up. Before I got with my girlfriend a couple years I was single for a pretty long time and I loved every minute of it. If my relationship doesn't work out then I'd seriously consider a sex bot. 

If all I need is sexual release, and a sex bot will do everything I want whenever I want, then what do I need women for? I've already got friends and family. I love loving alone. I make plenty of money to provide for everything my daughter and I need, and then some.

I just don't see a down side. All the kink without the judgment. 

ETA: If someone gets upset because I asked "What do I need women for?", remember that almost all women and some point in their lives have said "I don't need a man!"

And they would be right.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> First, major props for the TNG reference.
> 
> Second....see, the reason you aren't really into the whole sexbots topic is because you still actually like women.
> 
> It's the men who got burned by some Sally somewhere and have decided the "healthy" thing to do is write us all off who seem to think it's big and bad to wave around the sex bot threat.
> 
> *It's the male version of the whole uber-feminism fish/bicycle thing.*


I'd never thought of it that way, but that makes perfect sense.


----------



## 269370

musicftw07 said:


> If all I need is sexual release, and a sex bot will do everything I want whenever I want, then what do I need women for?



I don’t know. Can a sex bot look grateful when you cum on their face? It would be too much of an erection killer if they instead look incredibly stupid. Or they forget to make them splash proof.
I might take it for a spin once they figure out this little detail, until then however....*♀



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> By the way, feminists are trying to ban sex robots because they say they're misogynistic. The act of a man trying to help you out by taking himself out of your dating pool and getting a sex robot is somehow harmful to women. That doesn't seem like an act of a group of people who don't care. That seems like an act of people who are scared at the implications.


Please provide a source for this claim. I’d be curious as to what you read or found about this.

You do realize that “feminists” is not a one hive mind creature that acts in unison, right? Even if there is one “feminist” somewhere that wishes sex bots were banned, it doesn’t mean that “feminists are trying to ban sex robots”.

Most feminists are pro kink, which includes sex bots.


----------



## musicftw07

personofinterest said:


> So I'm saying that there will be subset of men who prefer their sex bot over what women can do for them. And it would be literally no different than women who prefer their toys.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree. And I would want to know which men prefer a machine so I could avoid them. Just like I am sure men would rather know which women prefer a wand so they can avoid them too.
> 
> I don't really give a rat's ass what feminazis think of sexbots. They basically hate men in general, and I have no respect for anyone who is small and sad enough to hate an entire gender. Their opinion on anything literally matters zero to me.
Click to expand...

Oh I totally agree with you. But their opinion has to matter to me since they seem to care a great deal what I do in my own home in my own time with my own money that doesn't hurt anyone else.

I could see how some guys might "prefer" it over women simply because it's simpler and they don't want the hassle of a relationship. That is something I could completely understand, given things I've experienced.

Yes, I would want to know if a woman preferred toys to penis. The difference is that I wouldn't shame a woman who had that preference. She's allowed to have that preference because it's HER sexuality. Same rules apply to men with sex bots. It's HIS sexuality and he's allowed to have that preference.

This notion of "what makes a real man" is nothing but a bunch of ludicrous bull ****.


----------



## musicftw07

inmyprime said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If all I need is sexual release, and a sex bot will do everything I want whenever I want, then what do I need women for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know. Can a sex bot look grateful when you cum on their face? It would be too much of an erection killer if they instead look incredibly stupid. Or they forget to make them splash proof.
> I might take it for a spin once they figure out this little detail, until then however....*♀
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The AI out there is pretty spectacular.


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> In theory, I agree with you. It probably would make relationships more difficult.
> 
> But look at the alternative. Unsuccessful men in the dating pool are shamed and ridiculed. Men who are unilaterally denied sex or sex acts by their partner aren't given much empathy. To them, relationships are already incredibly difficult. What further incentive do they have to try when there's a perfectly viable alternative available?
> 
> If a guy wants to go home and get kinky with his sex robot, who am I to look down on him? No different than a woman going home and getting down with her Hitachi and horse dildo.
> 
> Any I've always rejected the idea that people MUST couple up. Before I got with my girlfriend a couple years I was single for a pretty long time and I loved every minute of it. If my relationship doesn't work out then I'd seriously consider a sex bot.
> 
> If all I need is sexual release, and a sex bot will do everything I want whenever I want, then what do I need women for? I've already got friends and family. I love loving alone. I make plenty of money to provide for everything my daughter and I need, and then some.
> 
> I just don't see a down side. All the kink without the judgment.
> 
> ETA: If someone gets upset because I asked "What do I need women for?", remember that almost all women and some point in their lives have said "I don't need a man!"
> 
> And they would be right.


We are not disagreeing about anything, it seems. It’s just that you still want to think myself or other women would be missing anything or would want to change this.

I think it’s great and solves a lot of problems for men who either choose not to be with a human, or who are rejected by other humans. 

I know that the numbers of who buys the sex bots will show they are overwhelmingly male. And also that the women who buy them are mostly using them like a sex toy, not a replacement for a human man. In fact a woman that kinky probably also shares her bot with her partners and they pretend to have threesomes. Or they tie up the bot and pretend to take him as a hostage....oh but did you notice his boner sticking out through all of the ropes? I can’t let that get away. Bwah haha ha! There are some really kinky people out there, that’s for sure.


----------



## musicftw07

Faithful Wife said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, feminists are trying to ban sex robots because they say they're misogynistic. The act of a man trying to help you out by taking himself out of your dating pool and getting a sex robot is somehow harmful to women. That doesn't seem like an act of a group of people who don't care. That seems like an act of people who are scared at the implications.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide a source for this claim. I’d be curious as to what you read or found about this.
> 
> You do realize that “feminists” is not a one hive mind creature that acts in unison, right? Even if there is one “feminist” somewhere that wishes sex bots were banned, it doesn’t mean that “feminists are trying to ban sex robots”.
> 
> Mist feminists are pro kink, which includes sex bots.
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...sfree/2017/sep/25/ban-sex-robots-dolls-market

https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...ffer-men-solution-threat-female-independence/

Two things:

1) You seem to have no issue with painting men who are upset that their wives won't do certain sex acts with them, or men who might enjoy a sex bot, with a broad brush. So your statement of "feminists aren't a hive mind" rings more hollow than the inside of Trump's head.

2) I don't care what individual feminists do or say or believe (hell, even my girlfriend is a feminist), provided they don't try to tell me what it's like to be a man and how I should or shouldn't feel. And the activist political bloc of feminism is extraordinarily guilty of that. And I call them on their bull ****.


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, feminists are trying to ban sex robots because they say they're misogynistic. The act of a man trying to help you out by taking himself out of your dating pool and getting a sex robot is somehow harmful to women. That doesn't seem like an act of a group of people who don't care. That seems like an act of people who are scared at the implications.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide a source for this claim. I’d be curious as to what you read or found about this.
> 
> You do realize that “feminists” is not a one hive mind creature that acts in unison, right? Even if there is one “feminist” somewhere that wishes sex bots were banned, it doesn’t mean that “feminists are trying to ban sex robots”.
> 
> Mist feminists are pro kink, which includes sex bots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...sfree/2017/sep/25/ban-sex-robots-dolls-market
> 
> https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...ffer-men-solution-threat-female-independence/
> 
> Two things:
> 
> 1) You seem to have no issue with painting men who are upset that their wives won't do certain sex acts with them, or men who might enjoy a sex bot, with a broad brush. So your statement of "feminists aren't a hive mind" rings more hollow than the inside of Trump's head.
> 
> 2) I don't care what individual feminists do or say or believe (hell, even my girlfriend is a feminist), provided they don't try to tell me what it's like to be a man and how I should or shouldn't feel. And the activist political bloc of feminism is extraordinarily guilty of that. And I call them on their bull ****.
Click to expand...

These are both opinion articles and the line up of women’s rights activists opposed to the “rape doll” which is apparently just hype anyway was the only thing mentioned about opposition to the bots. If you like I can find you plenty of opinion articles by feminists who are all for sexual expression, including bots.

I’m all for them. For anyone who wants to try it for any reason. It’s just an expensive sex toy.

To the men who specifically try to “threaten” women with the notion that we may be replaced by non humans, yes I feel those men are probably the ones who can’t have true relationships with human women and should go ahead and get their bot ordered now and we will be glad to not have them in the dating pool.

Just my opinion.


----------



## 269370

Everyday Sexism’s Laura Bates describes her as “the sex robot that’s yours to rape for just $9,995”. 

Hahaha, Who comes up with this stuff!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> These are both opinion articles and the line up of women’s rights activists opposed to the “rape doll” which is apparently just hype anyway was the only thing mentioned about opposition to the bots. If you like I can find you plenty of opinion articles by feminists who are all for sexual expression, including bots.
> 
> I’m all for them. For anyone who wants to try it for any reason. It’s just an expensive sex toy.
> 
> To the men who specifically try to “threaten” women with the notion that we may be replaced by non humans, yes I feel those men are probably the ones who can’t have true relationships with human women and should go ahead and get their bot ordered now and we will be glad to not have them in the dating pool.
> 
> Just my opinion.


And mine. We'll show YOU you evil womens. We will replace you all. Bwaahaaa. Yah ok. Bye there.


----------



## 269370

Men threatening women with sex dolls? This thread gets stranger and stranger...
It makes absolutely no sense. And also that anyone would actually take this as a threat. Wtf.
Why threaten or be threatened with a sex doll when you can simply ‘replace’ the woman you have an issue with, with another (possibly hotter) woman you don’t have issues with? The latter seems much more realistic.

I have never seen any men ‘threaten’ women with sex bots; is it perhaps something women are imagining?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> A few of us women have already said how we are glad the sex bot revolution will help weed out the men who aren’t actually appropriate for human partners.
> 
> Men who are way into their sex bots can be happy and will most likely remain single.
> 
> However, women will have the option of sex bots too, even though most women will just use them as sex toys rather than a spouse replacement.
> 
> *Though what will happen then is that men will be so insecure about the size of a male sex bot’s penis that even though they have their own sex bots to play with, they will be making posts on forums asking women if it’s true that the sex bot peens are better than flesh and blood peens. And even though flesh and blood will always be better, a lot of women will still prefer bigger over real.
> *
> I don’t know why some men seem to try to “threaten” women with the coming sex bot revolution, like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us”. Bwah ha hahaha hahahah! Oh yeah. We are so worried.


And the male sex bots could have vibrating penises, penises that can grow/shrink in length and girth, grow g-spot knobs, and change shape upon command; and they will have similarly operable tongues.

It's a weird, weird world.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> To the men who specifically try to “threaten” women with the notion that we may be replaced by non humans, yes I feel those men are probably the ones who can’t have true relationships with human women and should go ahead and get their bot ordered now and we will be glad to not have them in the dating pool.
> 
> Just my opinion.


You have a point there. I would think that many men who would buy these bots are going to be very shy, reclusive, introverts who are basically intimidated by all women...not just feminists. They are not the kind of men who would threaten real women with anything, much less talk to them. 

But then you'll have the sex addict pervs buying them too. 

It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out five...ten years from now.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few of us women have already said how we are glad the sex bot revolution will help weed out the men who aren’t actually appropriate for human partners.
> 
> Men who are way into their sex bots can be happy and will most likely remain single.
> 
> However, women will have the option of sex bots too, even though most women will just use them as sex toys rather than a spouse replacement.
> 
> *Though what will happen then is that men will be so insecure about the size of a male sex bot’s penis that even though they have their own sex bots to play with, they will be making posts on forums asking women if it’s true that the sex bot peens are better than flesh and blood peens. And even though flesh and blood will always be better, a lot of women will still prefer bigger over real.
> *
> I don’t know why some men seem to try to “threaten” women with the coming sex bot revolution, like we are going to be like “oh no, we better start F-ing all these un-F-able men or they are going to start F-ing lifeless dolls instead of us”. Bwah ha hahaha hahahah! Oh yeah. We are so worried.
> 
> 
> 
> And the male sex bots could have vibrating penises, penises that can grow/shrink in length and girth, grow g-spot knobs, and change shape upon command; and they will have similarly operable tongues.
> 
> It's a weird, weird world.
Click to expand...

Also they won’t talk back.

Me: Shut up and do what you’re told, bot! 

Bot: ...

Me: Good bot. More penis, less words.

Bot: ...

Me: Excellent.


----------



## 269370

bandit.45 said:


> And the male sex bots could have vibrating penises, penises that can grow/shrink in length and girth, grow g-spot knobs, and change shape upon command; and they will have similarly operable tongues.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a weird, weird world.




Good point. They could have two penises for double penetration. Or they could spank women at lightning speeds, ‘man handle’ them roughly, drown them in cumlike substances and deep throat them.....
Hold on....how are those robots supposed to be pleasurable to women again? 🤨

I think if I was designing the perfect sex bot for women, given my limited experience from reading these forums about women’s needs, I would make one that leaves the woman the **** alone, cooks dinner, does **** around the house, picks the kids up from school, does the shopping, fills up a bath with candles, gives sensual massages and never mentions sex, EVER.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the men who specifically try to “threaten” women with the notion that we may be replaced by non humans, yes I feel those men are probably the ones who can’t have true relationships with human women and should go ahead and get their bot ordered now and we will be glad to not have them in the dating pool.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a point there. I would think that many men who would buy these bots are going to be very shy, reclusive, introverts who are basically intimidated by all women...not just feminists. They are not the kind of men who would threaten real women with anything, much less talk to them.
> 
> But then you'll have the sex addict pervs buying them too.
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out five...ten years from now.
Click to expand...

There’s already data on who buys them. Yes, that’s who buys them. Yes, that’s who will buy more of them as they become better and cheaper.

There really is someone (or something) for everyone.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> There’s already data on who buys them. Yes, that’s who buys them. Yes, that’s who will buy more of them as they become better and cheaper.
> 
> There really is someone (or something) for everyone.


And then you have men who are not afraid of women, not afraid of feminists; who are good looking, successful.... 

They may look at these sex bots as a reasonable alternative to spending vast amounts of cash on dating and entertaining women who may or may not sleep with them. $20,000 for a sex robot seems like a lot, unless you are a guy who dates regularly and probably spends half that much in a year just taking women out and scoring maybe 20% of the time. 

For a career man who has no desire to marry or settle down, or who works insane hours with no time leftover to date, one of these sex bots may just be the ticket for keeping his sexual needs satiated. If he needs a companion, he just gets a dog.


----------



## GTdad

inmyprime said:


> I think if I was designing the perfect sex bot for women, given my limited experience from reading these forums about women’s needs, I would make one that leaves the woman the **** alone, cooks dinner, does **** around the house, picks the kids up from school, does the shopping, fills up a bath with candles, gives sensual massages and never mentions sex, EVER.


The older I get, a "sex" bot which will wash my truck and paint the house sounds better and better than a bot who'll assume unnatural positions in the sack.


----------



## bandit.45

GTdad said:


> The older I get, a "sex" bot which will wash my truck and paint the house sounds better and better than a bot who'll assume unnatural positions in the sack.


If I ever bought one (which I would not) I would want the model with the coffee cup warmer on her belly.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> There’s already data on who buys them. Yes, that’s who buys them. Yes, that’s who will buy more of them as they become better and cheaper.
> 
> There really is someone (or something) for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> And then you have men who are not afraid of women, not afraid of feminists; who are good looking, successful....
> 
> They may look at these sex bots as a reasonable alternative to spending vast amounts of cash on dating and entertaining women who may or may not sleep with them. $20,000 for a sex robot seems like a lot, unless you are a guy who dates regularly and probably spends half that much in a year just taking women out and scoring maybe 20% of the time.
> 
> For a career man who has no desire to marry or settle down, or who works insane hours with no time leftover to date, one of these sex bots may just be the ticket for keeping his sexual needs satiated. If he needs a companion, he just gets a dog.
Click to expand...

Sure, more power to him!

Very few dateable, marryable, or F-able men would go this route. For the few who are -able but choose a bot anyway, there won’t ever be even a blip of time or statistics that affect human women. 

There will be a few eccentric or fetish based women who choose bots the same way. More power to them, too. It won’t affect human lives beyond their own.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Good point. They could have two penises for double penetration. Or they could spank women at lightning speeds, ‘man handle’ them roughly, drown them in cumlike substances and deep throat them.....
> Hold on....how are those robots supposed to be pleasurable to women again? 🤨
> 
> I think if I was designing the perfect sex bot for women, given my limited experience from reading these forums about women’s needs, I would make one that leaves the woman the **** alone, cooks dinner, does **** around the house, picks the kids up from school, does the shopping, fills up a bath with candles, gives sensual massages and never mentions sex, EVER.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One day, my wife was talking about the proliferation of ridiculous sex video games. My kids were at the time getting into basic Sims, so my wife understood these sort of pseudo-interactive games with fantasy friends and such. 

That led her to explain to me what a good sim, ultimately leading to sex, should look like. A tall dark and handsome man in good fitting jeans and a nicely pressed white shirt shows up on your doorstep with a dozen red roses.....

At the time I was fortunate enough to work within a few minutes of home and when work schedule allowed, I would sometimes go home for lunch. Well, the next time I had the opportunity, between leaving the office, I changed out of my dress pants into a perfect fitting pair of jeans (I was already wearing a crisply pressed, super clean white dress shirt), grabbed a dozen roses AND a box of chocolates (level up!) on the way home, and stopped at the doorstep to ring the bell rather than walking in. 

I don't even recall if I actually ate lunch that day.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Sure, more power to him!
> 
> *Very few dateable, marryable, or F-able men would go this route. For the few who are -able but choose a bot anyway, there won’t ever be even a blip of time or statistics that affect human women.
> 
> *There will be a few eccentric or fetish based women who choose bots the same way. More power to them, too. It won’t affect human lives beyond their own.


Mmmm...I dunno.

Path of least resistance. Most guys are lazy when it comes to dating and women. We don't invest any more money, time or emotions than we absolutely have to in order to score. And once a guy scores, nine times out of ten he moves on and the woman never hears from him again. 

I see a lot of otherwise very dateable men turning to bots. I think it could pose a problem down the road. 

Men are lowdown horny dogs. A portion of us do manage to rise above, but the majority still yearn for the quick, cheap lay.


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> One day, my wife was talking about the proliferation of ridiculous sex video games. My kids were at the time getting into basic Sims, so my wife understood these sort of pseudo-interactive games with fantasy friends and such.
> 
> That led her to explain to me what a good sim, ultimately leading to sex, should look like. A tall dark and handsome man in good fitting jeans and a nicely pressed white shirt shows up on your doorstep with a dozen red roses.....
> 
> At the time I was fortunate enough to work within a few minutes of home and when work schedule allowed, I would sometimes go home for lunch. Well, the next time I had the opportunity, between leaving the office, I changed out of my dress pants into a perfect fitting pair of jeans (I was already wearing a crisply pressed, super clean white dress shirt), grabbed a dozen roses AND a box of chocolates (level up!) on the way home, and stopped at the doorstep to ring the bell rather than walking in.
> 
> I don't even recall if I actually ate lunch that day.


Please incorporate this anecdotal story into the lesson plan of a great book on Porn for Married Women (or How to Get Laid as a Faithful Married Man)


----------



## bandit.45

Sex bots...

And more puffy shirts for men.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Please incorporate this anecdotal story into the lesson plan of a great book on Porn for Married Women (or How to Get Laid as a Faithful Married Man)


... if only such anecdotes were frequent enough for me to actually be able to claim to be an authoritative source on this topic. But I have no illusions about where I stand overall in this regard.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> Mmmm...I dunno.
> 
> Path of least resistance. Most guys are lazy when it comes to dating and women. We don't invest any more money, time or emotions than we absolutely have to in order to score. And once a guy scores, nine times out of ten he moves on and the woman never hears from him again.
> 
> I see a lot of otherwise very dateable men turning to bots. I think it could pose a problem down the road.
> 
> Men are lowdown horny dogs. A portion of us do manage to rise above, but the majority still yearn for the quick, cheap lay.


Nah. But sure, if you turn out to be right and droves of normal men who women actually want to be with are choosing bots over human women, then we can banter about why that would occur.

Until it actually does, I’m firmly in the camp that bots do serve a valuable purpose for many, and a form of sexual expression for others, and a form of income for the manufacturers. Win, win, win, no lose.


----------



## musicftw07

bandit.45 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, more power to him!
> 
> *Very few dateable, marryable, or F-able men would go this route. For the few who are -able but choose a bot anyway, there won’t ever be even a blip of time or statistics that affect human women.
> 
> *There will be a few eccentric or fetish based women who choose bots the same way. More power to them, too. It won’t affect human lives beyond their own.
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm...I dunno.
> 
> Path of least resistance. Most guys are lazy when it comes to dating and women. We don't invest any more money, time or emotions than we absolutely have to in order to score. And once a guy scores, nine times out of ten he moves on and the woman never hears from him again.
> 
> I see a lot of otherwise very dateable men turning to bots. I think it could pose a problem down the road.
> 
> Men are lowdown horny dogs. A portion of us do manage to rise above, but the majority still yearn for the quick, cheap lay.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree, although I wouldn't say I'm looking for a quick, cheap lay.

Dating is expensive and time consuming for very little return. I work full time, maintain my property, care for my child, run all errands, literally do everything in my household by myself. 

Do I really want to spend all my extra time and money dating when the success rate is extremely low? I socked away so much money when I was single that I was able to install central AC, laminate flooring in my entryway, and remodel my front bathroom. I paid cash for all of it.

Dating women is typically very high investment for very little return. I got extremely lucky with my girlfriend, she is the absolute best and I adore the hell out of her. But I had to weed through dozens in order to find her, and even then I wasn't even looking when I did.

That sort of thing doesn't happen to most people. I'm not special, I'm just fortunate. Random chance worked in my favor. It doesn't for most people.

If it hadn't for me, then a one time investment for something that would provide for all my sexual needs going forward with no hassle would be ideal. Raising my child, furthering my career, growing my savings and retirement funds, and maintaining my house are far, far more important than dating. My girlfriend is the exception to that rule because she's an exceptional person.

But no, I'm just a deviant who can't get laid with a following on Reddit. 😂


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> One day, my wife was talking about the proliferation of ridiculous sex video games. My kids were at the time getting into basic Sims, so my wife understood these sort of pseudo-interactive games with fantasy friends and such.
> 
> 
> 
> That led her to explain to me what a good sim, ultimately leading to sex, should look like. A tall dark and handsome man in good fitting jeans and a nicely pressed white shirt shows up on your doorstep with a dozen red roses.....
> 
> 
> 
> At the time I was fortunate enough to work within a few minutes of home and when work schedule allowed, I would sometimes go home for lunch. Well, the next time I had the opportunity, between leaving the office, I changed out of my dress pants into a perfect fitting pair of jeans (I was already wearing a crisply pressed, super clean white dress shirt), grabbed a dozen roses AND a box of chocolates (level up!) on the way home, and stopped at the doorstep to ring the bell rather than walking in.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't even recall if I actually ate lunch that day.




See, and people say that video games reduce opportunities for sex. Who would have thunk!

Can’t remember last time me or wife were exposed to a video game...There was talk about laying long-shaped bricks into appropriate gaps (hot!). Can’t remember what it’s called but if you fill all the gaps and win, they play Russian music at the end  I think that’s when you are supposed to have sex. And increase speed gradually as the levels get harder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Oh yeah. Tetris.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly

My wife and I could have great fun with a sex robot but alone the lack of real intimacy would very off putting. For us, the sexual pleasure is usually the icing on top of the intimacy cake. It wasn't that way when we were younger.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

I agree with some of your response here, also wanted to comment on this excerpt:

"That sort of thing doesn't happen to most people. I'm not special, I'm just fortunate. Random chance worked in my favor. It doesn't for most people."

Re good relationships being found, being "fortunate", absolutely. And all SOs in perfect world will keep that thought in forefront..

Re "random chance"......happens more than one might think....many great relationships are due to chance meetings..

A word of caution....it's great to have "stuff", best when paid for up front, always best....but....not a good idea to value "stuff" over a good relationship's care and "maintenance".


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Nah. But sure, if you turn out to be right and droves of normal men who women actually want to be with are choosing bots over human women, then we can banter about why that would occur.
> 
> Until it actually does, I’m firmly in the camp that bots do serve a valuable purpose for many, and a form of sexual expression for others, and a form of income for the manufacturers. Win, win, win, no lose.


Well you have a fake female, with the wide hips, bubble butt, huge tits and tiny waist that men love. A guy can stick it in every orifice and she just squeals or coos with delight. There's no negotiation, no foreplay, no complaining, no having to talk about feelings...

I can see where many shallower men would love this aspect of a sex bot. She does everything a real woman may or may not do for her man, and she won't complain or get pregnant.


----------



## musicftw07

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> These are both opinion articles and the line up of women’s rights activists opposed to the “rape doll” which is apparently just hype anyway was the only thing mentioned about opposition to the bots. If you like I can find you plenty of opinion articles by feminists who are all for sexual expression, including bots.
> 
> I’m all for them. For anyone who wants to try it for any reason. It’s just an expensive sex toy.
> 
> To the men who specifically try to “threaten” women with the notion that we may be replaced by non humans, yes I feel those men are probably the ones who can’t have true relationships with human women and should go ahead and get their bot ordered now and we will be glad to not have them in the dating pool.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> And mine. We'll show YOU you evil womens. We will replace you all. Bwaahaaa. Yah ok. Bye there.
Click to expand...

I don't get this argument. I never claimed that all women would be replaced by sex bots. All I said is that it is a viable alternative.

Due to the fact that another option is presenting itself, I believe they will replace *some* women. But certainly not all.

And I absolutely believe that any man with a sex bot would gladly have sex with a willing human lady.

If I were stuck in a sexless marriage, or wanted a particular act that my spouse wouldn't do, or was just simply to busy to date, then they're a good alternative. And I think it's good that men have another outlet for their sexual urges.

Women say they're shamed for their sexuality, and then turn right around and shame men for theirs. It's really quite unfortunate.


----------



## Faithful Wife

musicftw07 said:


> I absolutely agree, although I wouldn't say I'm looking for a quick, cheap lay.
> 
> Dating is expensive and time consuming for very little return. I work full time, maintain my property, care for my child, run all errands, literally do everything in my household by myself.
> 
> Do I really want to spend all my extra time and money dating when the success rate is extremely low? I socked away so much money when I was single that I was able to install central AC, laminate flooring in my entryway, and remodel my front bathroom. I paid cash for all of it.
> 
> Dating women is typically very high investment for very little return. I got extremely lucky with my girlfriend, she is the absolute best and I adore the hell out of her. But I had to weed through dozens in order to find her, and even then I wasn't even looking when I did.
> 
> That sort of thing doesn't happen to most people. I'm not special, I'm just fortunate. Random chance worked in my favor. It doesn't for most people.
> 
> If it hadn't for me, then a one time investment for something that would provide for all my sexual needs going forward with no hassle would be ideal. Raising my child, furthering my career, growing my savings and retirement funds, and maintaining my house are far, far more important than dating. My girlfriend is the exception to that rule because she's an exceptional person.
> 
> But no, I'm just a deviant who can't get laid with a following on Reddit. 😂


Anyone who would choose this route has my blessing and also, I would not assume without knowing someone what type of buyer a person might be. He may be a really awesome chap who just doesn’t want to spend energy on opposite sex relationships. There is no problem with this for anyone. To each his own, no human beings are being harmed by this and at least one human being is possibly being greatly enriched by this scenario. I’m all for it and am not saying this guy is deviant or not. 

Even if he is deviant, I wouldn’t judge him. Having spent enough time at Fetlife, you see things that are weirder than sex bots. Deviants and kinky people know how to have the most fun, IMO. They have my full support. I like their enthusiasm and creativity.

And for other guys, well, have you seen Lars and the Real Girl? Adorable movie and quite possible plot. I loved it actually. 

The rest of the buyers are undoubtedly the un -ables. And I’m happy about them finding their outlets, too.

Win,win,win, no lose.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Anyone who would choose this route has my blessing and also, I would not assume without knowing someone what type of buyer a person might be. He may be a really awesome chap who just doesn’t want to spend energy on opposite sex relationships. There is no problem with this for anyone. To each his own, no human beings are being harmed by this and at least one human being is possibly being greatly enriched by this scenario. I’m all for it and am not saying this guy is deviant or not.
> 
> Even if he is deviant, I wouldn’t judge him. Having spent enough time at Fetlife, you see things that are weirder than sex bots. Deviants and kinky people know how to have the most fun, IMO. They have my full support. I like their enthusiasm and creativity.
> 
> And for other guys, well, have you seen Lars and the Real Girl? Adorable movie and quite possible plot. I loved it actually.
> 
> The rest of the buyers are undoubtedly the un -ables. And I’m happy about them finding their outlets, too.
> 
> Win,win,win, no lose.


And if rapists or molesters can use these bots to satiate their evil compulsions, instead of unleashing their violence on real victims, then so much the better.


----------



## musicftw07

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I agree with some of your response here, also wanted to comment on this excerpt:
> 
> "That sort of thing doesn't happen to most people. I'm not special, I'm just fortunate. Random chance worked in my favor. It doesn't for most people."
> 
> Re good relationships being found, being "fortunate", absolutely. And all SOs in perfect world will keep that thought in forefront..
> 
> Re "random chance"......happens more than one might think....many great relationships are due to chance meetings..
> 
> A word of caution....it's great to have "stuff", best when paid for up front, always best....but....not a good idea to value "stuff" over a good relationship's care and "maintenance".


All good points. But remember, I didn't say I valued those things over my relationship. I valued them over DATING. As in, searching for a girlfriend.

My girlfriend is absolutely a priority to me. And she knows it.

With that being said, my child will always come first. Also, I still have to ensure my house is clean, groceries are bought, the bills are paid, laundry is done, dishes are washed, dinner is made, lunches are made... I still have responsibilities in spite of being in a relationship. And since I live alone, I have to do them all myself.

I'm not looking for sympathy, just providing context. Balance is important to me in my life, and I balance my relationship with my responsibilities and obligations.

But dating/searching for a GF was so low on my priority list that it didn't even register. Increasing the value of my home is more important than hoping I get laid. One is a surety, the other is not.

Simple cost/benefit anaylsis.


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## 269370

bandit.45 said:


> Well you have a fake female, with the wide hips, bubble butt, huge tits and tiny waist that men love. A guy can stick it in every orifice and she just squeals or coos with delight. There's no negotiation, no foreplay, no complaining, no having to talk about feelings...
> 
> 
> 
> I can see where many shallower men would love this aspect of a sex bot. She does everything a real woman may or may not do for her man, and she won't complain or get pregnant.




But is she going to smell of lithium batteries or silicone? ‘Cos smell to me almost one of the most important turn ons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> Well you have a fake female, with the wide hips, bubble butt, huge tits and tiny waist that men love. A guy can stick it in every orifice and she just squeals or coos with delight. There's no negotiation, no foreplay, no complaining, no having to talk about feelings...
> 
> I can see where many shallower men would love this aspect of a sex bot. She does everything a real woman may or may not do for her man, and she won't complain or get pregnant.


I can see a high percentage of men would say yes to a one time encounter with a bot. A high percentage of women would take that opportunity as well. Especially if somehow the skin of the bot was known to be completely sterile for each user. I think a lot of both genders may take this opportunity to do a mock same sex or group sex experience as well. It would just be creepy-fun for a lot of people.

Beyond this, I can only see a very low percentage of people going completely bot and no more human after that. 

The main complaint around TAM is lack of genuine enthusiasm. Those men aren’t going to accept a robot in place of a wife because they already don’t accept the lack of enthusiasm. They want the real thing. Many will end up divorced and finally get a good sex life. Others will go to their graves without it, but still will not choose a bot over nothing. Others will cheat with human women. Others will somehow improve their married sex lives. But I would bet money that none of our regular TAM male posters will end up feeling a bot is just as good as a human woman.


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## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> And if rapists or molesters can use these bots to satiate their evil compulsions, instead of unleashing their violence on real victims, then so much the better.


I have always assumed rape is the main game many owners play with their bots.


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## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> And if rapists or molesters can use these bots to satiate their evil compulsions, instead of unleashing their violence on real victims, then so much the better.


Unfortunately, this will not work.


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## bandit.45

inmyprime said:


> But is she going to smell of lithium batteries or silicone? ‘Cos smell to me almost one of the most important turn ons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh...just rub some tuna juice on it....


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## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> I have always assumed rape is the main game many owners play with their bots.


It would not satisfy a rapist. That is not about games, and it is not about sex. It is about power, punishment and pain.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Unfortunately, this will not work.




Why not? Studies show that sexual assaults have declined proportionally with porn usage.
Sending sex bots down dark alleys late at night might be the ultimate solution!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> I have always assumed rape is the main game many owners play with their bots.


Maybe some. But others maybe not. I saw a news article about Japanese men who develop real feelings for their bots...even taking them out in public on dates or for strolls in the park. Weird, weird sh*t. 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/718599/sex-robots-dolls-japan-endangered-species-documentary-video-news


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## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> Unfortunately, this will not work.


You don't even think it would take their edge off?


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> It would not satisfy a rapist. That is not about games, and it is not about sex. It is about power, punishment and pain.


I agree. It would probably be used by non raping folks to role play a rape fantasy.


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## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Why not? Studies show that sexual assaults have declined proportionally with porn usage.
> Sending sex bots down dark alleys late at night might be the ultimate solution!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Blowing what passes for rapist brain matter onto alley dumpsters works even better.

Studies can show anything and porn further objectifies women. 

Further training minds to view women and children as objects of lust doesn't inspire a lot of enthusiasm here.


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## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> You don't even think it would take their edge off?


Possibly for a short time but there is no safe way to feed that particular beast.

I'm for slaying that particular dragon.


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## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> It would not satisfy a rapist. That is not about games, and it is not about sex. It is about power, punishment and pain.


I’m giving the average sex bot buyer the benefit of the doubt and assuming most are not rapists, they are just kinky.


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## 269370

Pretty amazing actually: 

https://youtu.be/-cN8sJz50Ng

But I still don’t see this becoming mainstream somehow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## musicftw07

ConanHub said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? Studies show that sexual assaults have declined proportionally with porn usage.
> Sending sex bots down dark alleys late at night might be the ultimate solution!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Blowing what passes for rapist brain matter onto alley dumpsters works even better.
> 
> Studies can show anything and porn further objectifies women.
> 
> Further training minds to view women and children as objects of lust doesn't inspire a lot of enthusiasm here.
Click to expand...

All of the major porn sites now have a "Female Choice" section. In other words, they're also catering to women's tastes. Which I think is great! Some of the best clips I've seen appeared there. It's a myth that only men watch porn.

I only watch amateur porn, though. Real people doing real things and having a real good time. Professional porn is completely worthless and I think can trap women in bad situations. It's not sexy when the woman is clearly not into it.

I get why some people say they don't watch it on religious or moral grounds. I have no argument with that. But it is possible to watch porn and not want to rape or merely treat women like objects that solely exist for my enjoyment.


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## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> Possibly for a short time but there is no safe way to feed that particular beast.
> 
> I'm for slaying that particular dragon.


I'm for that. But we cannot do that with all the bleeding hearts in power can we?


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## 269370

I don’t see many buying those bots; after all, they have been in production since 2010 I think and they still haven’t taken off.

A real woman is so much more than just a pair of holes!

She is also a massive drain on the wallet 

No really; you can’t even replace her with a prostitute or affair partner to a degree that doesn’t feel humiliating or doesn’t ruin yours and everybody’s lives. What makes people think sex bots have a better chance?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> I don’t see many buying those bots; after all, they have been in production since 2010 I think and they still haven’t taken off.
> 
> A real woman is so much more than just a pair of holes!
> 
> She is also a massive drain on the wallet
> 
> No really; you can’t even replace her with a prostitute or affair partner to a degree that doesn’t feel humiliating or doesn’t ruin yours and everybody’s lives. What makes people think sex bots have a better chance?


One theory I've heard (and believe has some validity) is that men *initially* pursue women primarily for sex. 

Finding women that they are attracted to that are willing to have sex with them has a high failure rate for most men and it requires a good deal of persistence to keep at it. The desire to have sex is the reason so many men keep trying despite a high failure rate.

Sex bots could (will, eventually) provide the same (probably better) sexual experience is (in my view) likely to be enough to convince many men that the effort involved in pursuing real women just isn't worth it.

Now, a relationship with a real woman involves far more than sex, sex with someone you are emotionally attached to is a far better option and a relationship with a real woman is far more satisfying than sex with a robot (no matter how mind-blowing the sex may be) but, I think the easy availability of high quality sex bots may cause many men to give up the pursuit of real women (to the man's detriment). 

As a side note, this will also reduce the pool of marriageable men available to women who want to be in relationships. 

None of this is going to effect the top SMV women (like @faithfulwife) who will always have plenty of men to choose from or the top SMV men (who can have sex with real women just about as easily as they can with sexbots). 

It's everybody else that I'm concerned about.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> Sex bots could (will, eventually) provide the same (probably better) sexual experience



I seriously would like to know how this is possible; i couldn’t even find anything that could provide a better experience than my hand (and that can’t be very difficult to beat).

The only thing I can think of is that they design something to stick your **** into, that feels better than a vagina (no need for complicated AI): again, can’t be that difficult right? No, I have never experienced anything I could stick it into, that felt even remotely close. Not even a man’s anus, as Borat would say!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t see many buying those bots; after all, they have been in production since 2010 I think and they still haven’t taken off.
> 
> A real woman is so much more than just a pair of holes!
> 
> She is also a massive drain on the wallet
> 
> No really; you can’t even replace her with a prostitute or affair partner to a degree that doesn’t feel humiliating or doesn’t ruin yours and everybody’s lives. What makes people think sex bots have a better chance?
> 
> 
> 
> One theory I've heard (and believe has some validity) is that men *initially* pursue women primarily for sex.
> 
> Finding women that they are attracted to that are willing to have sex with them has a high failure rate for most men and it requires a good deal of persistence to keep at it. The desire to have sex is the reason so many men keep trying despite a high failure rate.
> 
> Sex bots could (will, eventually) provide the same (probably better) sexual experience is (in my view) likely to be enough to convince many men that the effort involved in pursuing real women just isn't worth it.
> 
> Now, a relationship with a real woman involves far more than sex, sex with someone you are emotionally attached to is a far better option and a relationship with a real woman is far more satisfying than sex with a robot (no matter how mind-blowing the sex may be) but, I think the easy availability of high quality sex bots may cause many men to give up the pursuit of real women (to the man's detriment).
> 
> As a side note, this will also reduce the pool of marriageable men available to women who want to be in relationships.
> 
> None of this is going to effect the top SMV women (like @faithfulwife) who will always have plenty of men to choose from or the top SMV men (who can have sex with real women just about as easily as they can with sexbots).
> 
> It's everybody else that I'm concerned about.
Click to expand...

I guess I have more faith in the next generation of men who these bots will be more available to. I just don’t think there will be so many of them taking themselves out of the dating/mating pool in order to be exclusive with a bot that it will make a difference to women in general. And for the men it helps, more power to them. 

Human men and women will always find their way to each other.

Keep in mind also that as our gender roles change, more young women are free to actually have sex with men just because they want to have sex. Not as a route to the once only acceptable way to having a sex life, marriage, but just because she wants to with whoever she chooses to as the time is right for her. This will and is beneficial to men too. We don’t have to play a long game where we negotiate a committed relationship before we have sex with each other. 

Women have more choices now and are acting upon them and men will always be around to give us opportunities for sex.

It’s only under the view that women don’t actually want sex that the theory that men will find bots easier to deal with works. In a world where women are free to have sex like men are, we will see a new balance.


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## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> In a world where women are free to have sex like men are, we will see a new balance.


I think the problem here is that while men may be *free* to have sex, most men aren't actually capable of *having* sex due to the lack of a willing partner (most of the time, not at some point in their life). 

Also, while I have no problem with women having sex just for the purpose of having sex, there's a lot of evidence that most women aren't happy with it (the issue of whether or not men are happy about it being irrelevant here).


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## oldtruck

personofinterest said:


> My husband is attentive and kind and passionate. We make love every single day, and he is wonderful. If he didn't want to give me oral sex even though I am sure he has given it to others, I might ask why, but everything else is so wonderful, I just dismiss it and be fine. The reason I would dismiss it and be fine is because he is so amazing as a person and as a lover, I'd basically have to be a whiny little tittie baby to define our entire sex life by his refusal to do oral sex. And, quite frankly, since I am not a whiny little tittie baby, I would still be thankful to have him.


You just dismiss this because getting oral is not that important to you.


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## Marduk

oldtruck said:


> You just dismiss this because getting oral is not that important to you.




I worry you’re approaching sex with transactional thinking - as in, I give you stuff because I want you to give me stuff. 

Or as a zero sum game - if she gave it to someone in the past and not to me in the present, they lose and I win. 

Sex can be those things, but they are quite limiting and frankly boring. I would suggest an approach based on what you actually want from your sex life, not what you can game your way into or what other people have gotten that you haven’t.


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## CraigBesuden

This post on Reddit about an Indian couple is on point. She was promiscuous in high school and college, then failed at OLD and asked her parents for an arranged marriage. Her husband thought she was a virgin, then he finds a video of her performing oral on a guy with a much larger penis. She won’t do that for her husband because it’s degrading, but did it for everyone else in the state. Now he’s divorcing her while she’s pregnant.


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## CraigBesuden

And the second part of that post:


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## personofinterest

I see someone resurrected the whining thread lol


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## Lila

CraigBesuden said:


> This post on Reddit about an Indian couple is on point. She was promiscuous in high school and college, then failed at OLD and asked her parents for an arranged marriage. Her husband thought she was a virgin, then he finds a video of her performing oral on a guy with a much larger penis. She won’t do that for her husband because it’s degrading, but did it for everyone else in the state. Now he’s divorcing her while she’s pregnant.


Reddit is home to the best fan fiction on the internet. Very entertaining place indeed but so much of that stuff is written by 14 year olds. B


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## syhoybenden

Reddit without a doubt, then Loveshack, and for the trifecta SurvivingInfidelity.


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## personofinterest

Like I said.....the woman hating whine thread


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## ConanHub

personofinterest said:


> Like I said.....the woman hating whine thread


It might have turned into that but the OP is an interesting topic.


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## Lila

This thread has had a good run but it's time to put it to sleep.


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## Deejo

Ah ... where sexual entitlement meets sexual agency. And sprinkle in a little socio-sexual shaming for good measure.

An oldie, but a goodie.

Don't know if anyone will get anything new out of this very old thread, but we shall see.


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## Deejo

Just read the last few pages.


I think we're good.


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