# You can cheat in an open relationship too (warning: long and detailed)



## pyroman5000 (Sep 25, 2015)

Pardon in advance for my rambling.

My wife of 9 years and I have been swinging for the past 3 years now. It all started with a particularly intense line of questioning, based on a game of truth or dare. We were effectively trapped in a truck (road trip) for 3 days and we couldn't really do any dares, so it was basically truth or truth, with brutal honesty and the promise to not get angry. A lot of young couples would consider this dangerous territory. We learned a great deal about ourselves and eachother those days. Most importantly, that we both agree that love and sex are two completely different things, and do not always have to be mutually inclusive. The idea that we, as a couple, could not have all the same kinds of fun as single people can (simply because we are a couple) was discouraging, and we decided to put together a set of rules, and work together in achieving these sexy adventures.

A bit more backstory, we met at the age of 18, and were eachothers firsts for everything but kissing. First oral, first sex, first serious relationship. We had sex on average twice a day, every day, for the next 6 years. There were no major fights, there was no infidelity, we functioned great as a couple. The sex just became boring. At the 6 year mark we were still having sex at the same rate, but there was no emotion, it was purely mechanical, as if to alleviate the sexual frustration.

When we opened our relationship we made a specific set of rules that we had agreed upon, and breaking any of these rules would be considered cheating:

1. Anything involving other people cannot be brought up as a point in a future argument
2. Either of us have the power to stop at any time, no questions asked, whether its just the session, a particular person, or the entire open status of our relationship.
3. We play with others, but we do so together and in full agreement
4. No play on the day of the initial meeting unless we are both in agreement.
5. Condoms for intercourse. No exceptions.

So after two years or so of this and many many many encounters, my job responsibilities changed and I ended up spending some time out of town. It's only about two hours out, but effectively puts a stop to my evening availability. One night my wife asks me if she can go dancing with our female play partner. They had become more friends than play partners recently, so I didn't mind at all. I even told her if they wanted to fool around with eachother, I'm all for it (theyve done it before with me watching). She was excitied that I wanted to grant her this privilege, and so we agreed on a new rule:

6. If one of us plays without the other it is because we are in agreement. Pictures and unlimited details must be made available to the other person constantly so that we are both still involved.

I got home from work unusually late, and my wife was already home. They had fun dancing, but didn't fool around so there was nothing to report, except for being hit on by other women at the bar.

Time goes on, and through our aforementioned unicorn friend, we meet a guy. He was very adventurous and after having a couple of foursomes, he shifted his dynamic and expressed interest in having my wife over at his place for a day and night, alone, without me or our unicorn friend. He's a great guy, so I was cool with it. He took her in, took her dancing, cooked her dinner, and they had sex a few times during the night. I was getting pictures and text updates throughout the night as I played video games with a friend at home. More than anything, I was proud of her for breaking out of her shy, introverted shell and having some wild fun for a change. As long as the rules are followed it's all good. There were a couple minor incidents where she would have sex with him and not send me pictures, but she always took pictures and let me see them when she got home. Eventually the guy lost interest, and my wife hasn't played alone since.

Fast forward another few months. She's really outgoing now, meeting new guys over coffee every few weeks, sometimes they come over and we have a threesome the next day, sometimes they just part ways. I have my regulars too, but few and far between due to my heavy work schedule. We are both happy with the way things are going, and we still have sex at least once a day ourselves, with extramarital sex occurring once or twice a month. She went out one evening for coffee, and as always, I watched on a map where she was and what she was up to (this was her idea, not only to help in the very likely event she gets lost, but also for her to feel more safe. I agreed that when I'm watching the map she doesn't have to send me pictures, just show them to me later).

This is where the incident happens. I watched as she drove to the coffee stop (tim hortons) about 30 minutes away. She parked the car, and then I get a text saying she made it there. She goes inside the place, and there she stayed for the better part of two hours, occasionally texting me to say she's still okay, having coffee and chitchatting etc. At this point everything is pretty typical so I start up a game, keeping the map open on another screen. Another hour passes. It's after dark now. Her dot begins to move back to the car. Then moves down the street. She's on her way home, but I've gotten no text. The car stops, I think she parked. I go to street view, and it's a narrow one-way street, poorly lit. Odd, the first thing that comes to my mind obviously is that they are going to have sex in the car. I quickly dismissed this thought, as she is a very tall and curvy girl wearing a goose down parka, driving an older ford focus. There's no chance she's able to have sex in that car. She's probably wanting to chat about sexy things (a crowded tim hortons is no place to do that) and wanted some privacy or something. So I go back to my game. About 40 minutes later the dot begins to move, stops at the end of the street, and I get a text.

"On my way home handsome, he touched me a little bit and I touched him but not much"

...


...


breathe.

...

Did she just admit to breaking our rules? Is she kidding? No she doesn't kid about this kind of thing. 'Not much'? Is she trying to downplay this? This is a big deal. I'm beside myself. I know it's not the same as hearing moaning, walking in the door and catching your monogamous wife on top of your friend, but we had rules and she broke them, and now trying to play it off like its no big deal. In my head I could only see her smiling with the guys junk in her hand, his hand in her panties, and her knowing she's breaking the rules and not caring.

I didn't respond to her text, I just went to bed. I try to think of myself as a logical and understanding person, but I'm also not a pushover. It's best I say nothing, lest I explode and say something I'll regret. She came home, saw that I was in bed (I never go to bed without her) and she knew immediately I was hurting.

I couldn't speak to her the entire next day. Every time I looked at her and wanted to say something I froze up, for fear I would lose my cool and say something I didn't mean. She knew, but she also couldn't bring herself to discuss it. We were at somewhat of a standstill for almost 2 days before I asked her about it. After a lot of back and forth, careful not to raise my voice, we settled on a new agreement. She no longer was allowed to meet or play without me. I don't want her to reveal the details of what happened, but she did admit she wanted it, and that they made out and played with eachothers genitals the entire time they were parked. There was no sex because of lack of protection and the size of the car, otherwise it would have been very likely to happen. I didn't ask if they had oral sex and she didn't mention it. It ended when he tried to get her to go to his place for more and she refused. It only got that far because she's submissive and has a hard time saying no to people. At the end, three of my rules were broken in one shot. She played on the day of the first meet, she played without asking my permission (honestly I probably would have said yes), and she didn't take any pictures to send me (not that it's important in this case but, it's a rule nonetheless). 

The fallout is ongoing. She is allowing me to play without her, but I've not jumped at the opportunity. I think about this incident every day. She became timid and reserved again, back in her proverbial shell, though she's starting to come out of it again. We both agreed we don't want to stop the open nature of our relationship, but will have to move forward slowly and carefully, with perfect understanding of the rules and how important they are. She knows she ****ed up, and knows if it were me who broke the rules she would have been just as hurt. We still meet up with new people occasionally, but it's fallen to once every 2-3 months. We have sex about twice a week now because her libido is inching closer to normal. Overall the situation is improving.

I need to know what to do. I've lurked here a long time and now I need some advice, it took me two weeks to put this post together. I know the majority of people are strongly against any type of open relationship, but it is what it is. I believe she will not make these mistakes again. I don't know if I should ask to know the full story. I don't know if I should let her try playing solo again. I don't know if I should forget the whole thing even happened. If anyone was brave enough to read all this, I'd like to hear your thoughts.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

It would seem to be time for you to institute Rule #2...



> 2. Either of us have the power to stop at any time, no questions asked, whether its just the session, a particular person, or the entire open status of our relationship.


Derp.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm all for open relationships between consenting couples.

Just know that it's fraught with risk. One risk is, obviously, your wife falling for someone else.

There was something about this guy that caused her to hide and lie. Period.

She may not just be the type who can keep and open relationship to what it is. Maybe it's time to bring it back to basics.

Is her playing on her own really worth risking the relationship where there are perfectly fine alternatives?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

I apologize to other members,but people like you and your wife should not be here,on this site.

Maybe I am stupid or to young but marriage for me is something else.

What you have with your wife is a "roommate" thing. 

We are trying to help each other. Some of us are so hurt over what our wife/husband did to us that we even dont know where our head is or a## is.

You have other sites and members who are just like you and your wife. Maybe they can help you.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I would suspend all for a long while until you feel you can trust her to follow the rules, which for now - you can not.

Not worth the chance.

Dangerous. She could just as easily been raped or killed and you would have no idea who did it. You play with fire - you could get burned.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

After all the things that your wife has done. And you. It seems strange you would get mad at what she did. I guess it was against your rules, but doesn't seem like much based on what you have been OK with in the past.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I would never condone or agree to an "open relationship". I am not built for that. But I will not judge what two married adults agree to in their marriage.

The point is that they agreed to a set of rules and she broke them. So yes, it is cheating and you have to stop this behavior if you want to save your marriage.

Is having an open relationship now that you know your wife is capable of breaking the rules worth the marriage? Like all cheaters, she will do it again. You should stop the relationship for the good of your marriage. She has shown that she is not capable of following the rules and will do it again. Sadly I think she will need sex from other men even if you are aware of it or not.

Shut down the playing around and watch her closely. But she now has a taste for it so it may be too late.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I understand that people have open relationships. I don't get them. I don't get it. Maybe some on this board do. I think those relationships and those that have them are so fundamentally different from traditional monogamous relationships and couples that advice to one does not translate to the other. I'm not sure the advice you get here will apply.


Good luck.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I wish I could offer advice, but I cannot even relate.

There are a few people here who regularly chime in on "open marriage" threads. I hope they step in and can help.

Sorry for what you're going through, and best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Get checked for STDs.

If she "forgets" one aspect of your agreement, she might "forget" about the no condom rule. 

And STDs can be passed via oral sex, too.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

bigfoot said:


> I understand that people have open relationships. I don't get them. I don't get it. Maybe some on this board do. I think those relationships and those that have them are so fundamentally different from traditional monogamous relationships and couples that advice to one does not translate to the other. I'm not sure the advice you get here will apply.
> 
> 
> Good luck.


Swinging is like those people who do high wire acts with no safety gear.

Eventually, one of them will fall.


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## pyroman5000 (Sep 25, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> It would seem to be time for you to institute Rule #2...


That was literally my first thought. After some discussion though, while we both retain the ability to call upon Rule #2, we both would rather not for the time being. If this is repairable, it would be a more attractive option.



Be smart said:


> What you have with your wife is a "roommate" thing.


This is what was on my mind when we were first testing the waters. I did a lot of research and found that the majority of open relationships are those in which the couple doesn't consult eachother on their extramarital relationships. They arent involved in the others' romantic entanglements, and often don't even know the person their partner is playing with. In that case I would very much consider the relationship to be roommates with benefits. By contrast, we try to be totally involved in everything the other is doing. The idea is that we are doing this for eachother. I have looked far and wide across the web for a more 'appropriate' place to ask these questions, but none had the collective wisdom nor experience as TAM.



TDSC60 said:


> She could just as easily been raped or killed and you would have no idea who did it. You play with fire - you could get burned.


Luckily we live in a place where murder is next to nonexistent. As such, it is the least of our concerns. Rape is a minor concern, but she is a relatively large and stubborn german woman, who watches her drinks, doesn't get drunk, and doesn't do drugs.



SadSamIAm said:


> After all the things that your wife has done. And you. It seems strange you would get mad at what she did. I guess it was against your rules, but doesn't seem like much based on what you have been OK with in the past.


It's not so much what she did, like I said if she'd have asked permission to break the rules, I probably would have allowed her (with some guidelines of course), but she chose to just do it and tell me about it later like it was no big deal (though her body language told me she knew it was a big deal).




TDSC60 said:


> Shut down the playing around and watch her closely. But she now has a taste for it so it may be too late.


We make no secret of the fact that we very much enjoy what we are doing. But from the moment we started it's been known that if one of us decides on a cold stop, it will be a cold stop. The thrill of something new is fun and all but she has no shortage of sexual pleasure at home. Given her timid and submissive nature, she'd sooner try to convince me to open the relationship again than start doing things behind my back, which would be impossible anyway because I know where she is at every second of every day. Besides the GPS, we always know where the other is, and if that changes we will know something is wrong immediately.



bigfoot said:


> I understand that people have open relationships. I don't get them.


It's basically your typical marriage with the occasional threesome thrown into the mix. We keep all the emotions and lovemaking to ourselves, as in any marriage, but we occasionally have emotionless mechanical sex with other people together, for the sake of pleasure. It would seem my mistake was letting her play without me, which effectively changed the dynamic of the relationship. We just didn't see it until she made a mistake (which wouldn't have happened if I was there)


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You'd get more appropriate advice on the 'polyamory' site forums, OP. They often have threads discussing issues with open relationships and other forms of non-monogamy.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pyroman5000 said:


> That was literally my first thought. After some discussion though, while we both retain the ability to call upon Rule #2, we both would rather not for the time being. If this is repairable, it would be a more attractive option.


OK, but let's be clear w/ respect to precisely what means...

It means that the both of you are more committed to the thrill of maintaining a roster of multiple sex partners than you are to each other.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pyroman5000 said:


> It's basically your typical marriage with the occasional threesome thrown into the mix. We keep all the emotions and lovemaking to ourselves, as in any marriage, but we occasionally have emotionless mechanical sex with other people together, for the sake of pleasure.


Have you stopped to consider that perhaps that wasn't a purely "mechanical" encounter for her?



pyroman5000 said:


> It would seem my mistake was letting her play without me, which effectively changed the dynamic of the relationship. We just didn't see it until she made a mistake (which wouldn't have happened if I was there)


Sooo... she wouldn't have done something to violate your trust had you been there...? :scratchhead:

Good luck w/ THAT logic bomb.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds to me like you are trying to draw a very distinct line between sex that is an expression of love between two people and sex that is performed for raw physical pleasure, no emotions attached.

Your rules seem to be superficial attempts to codify that. You want the emotion to be just with her and to allow the both of you to swing for the pleasure.

It's hard for people here to understand why her having sex with other men is OK, but you feel betrayed because she 'broke a rule.' I assume this is because the rules are in place to ensure that her emotions stay directed at you and you alone. 

I don't think you can articulate a set of rules that can govern people's emotions, however. You can try to prejudice things in your favor, but there are no guarantees.

I, too, think you are playing with fire. Your rules are most likely not adequate to the task of keeping the fire under control.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
As I see it the answer to your problem is to make another rule or perhaps redefine an existing one. I fine it curious that you initiated so many rules just so you could break the monogamy rule of marriage. As I have stated many times before, the term "open marriage" is an oxymoron and cannot exist. There cannot exist a relationship that is polymonogomous.

In any event, when agreeing to break the rule of monogamy in your marriage you in essence agreed that you two can set any rules you desire for marriage. This is not so. You can break the rule but you cannot change what is a universally accepted concept. Your best course of action would have been to enter into a polyamorous relationship and to forgo the marital ties. Instead you chose to enter into the traditional marital arrangement and then change it to meet your desires by initiating a complex set of rules which supersede your vows.

I find this to be problematic, making rules to allow breaking of rules. So then, of what value are rules when they can be made, changed and superseded? They loose their effectiveness at establishing boundaries as you now have experienced. My advice to you is to divorce and continue your relationship as an open couple so that your entire union is not predicated on breaking the main rule of marriage. In this way you can establish whatever rules you need at any given moment and can be flexible to allow/disallow whatever suits you. By doing so, your relationship will be based on a set of rules not designed to break the rule on which your relationship is currently based. I wish you good fortune.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You take risks like this, you get burnt, it is inevitable.secondly, women and men are different when it comes to sex.
Men are quite functionalist, women are not, she'll eventually connect with a guy and it will be more than sex, it is a matter of time.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Take it from a guy that use to be in the sex trade, When your women is letting another guy f-ck her, it mean she doesn't think highly of you. A woman that has respect for you and the marriage ain't going for an open marriage deal. I don't give a damn what anybody says. Of the many I've known, I've never run across it except twice where the woman actually loved and respected her husband. I'll be willing to bet old pyroman is history.
If you want something in your corral that any cowboy can mount, get a horse.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

The basic flaw with open marriages is IMO that sex is never just sex. 

Even when I have had a one-night stand, which in my life hasn't been very often, I do not just f--k and forget. There was a woman who was with me, she was kind enough, desirous enough or carefree enough to take me in her arms. Even if I don't know here, that matters.

There is always something more to sex than the f--king.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

Wish you luck, as with me and mine


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

the stop was probably some quick muck about and feeling up - hence a place with low visibility ... likely with him proposing sex in car or back to his place, and your partner saying no/explaining rules; and him say "nah forget him" and her getting annoyed about it, and calling it a night. you probably haven't got photos because (1) he didnt want to have photos/thought it weird, and (2) nothing more worth getting pictures occurred so there's nothing to show.

-
Oh abd of course she's being timid, she cares aboiut you, and you're acting like an ar.ehole


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

But that isn't the case. Rules are rules for a reason and there is a concrete reason why she broke the rules for this guy.

There is likely a nascent emotional connection there. She likely formed this leading up to the date.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## axiror (Oct 2, 2015)

Time for cuckolding?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

pyroman5000 said:


> Her dot begins to move back to the car. Then moves down the street. She's on her way home, but I've gotten no text. The car stops, I think she parked. I go to street view, and it's a narrow one-way street, poorly lit. Odd, the first thing that comes to my mind obviously is that they are going to have sex in the car. I quickly dismissed this thought, as she is a very tall and curvy girl wearing a goose down parka, driving an older ford focus. There's no chance she's able to have sex in that car. She's probably wanting to chat about sexy things (a crowded tim hortons is no place to do that) and wanted some privacy or something. So I go back to my game. About 40 minutes later the dot begins to move, stops at the end of the street, and I get a text.
> 
> "On my way home handsome, he touched me a little bit and I touched him but not much"


 When you say about the possibility of them having sex in the car that you "quickly dismissed this thought, as she is a very tall and curvy girl wearing a goose down parka, driving an older ford focus. There's no chance she's able to have sex in that car", why did you rule out the very real possibility of her going in his vehicle or him following her in his vehicle, which could have been a much larger car, van, SUV, or station wagon that they could have had sex in? In the heat of the moment, if she was turned on by him enough to want to break the no play on the first date rule, what would stop her from also breaking other rules, especially since having sex with other men is no longer forbidden to her in her marriage? The other guy could have easily told her that she either wants sex or she does not, and to forget about all of these silly "not on a first date", take photos, and other such rules, and she went along with it. Bottom line, she knew that if she had sex with him in his vehicle and told you that they only touched, that although you would be mad about it, you would not end the marriage over this incident, and she was right.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

eric1 said:


> But that isn't the case. Rules are rules for a reason and there is a concrete reason why she broke the rules for this guy.
> 
> There is likely a nascent emotional connection there. She likely formed this leading up to the date.
> 
> ...


Why does this fire keep burning me every time I stick my hand in it?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

TRy said:


> When you say about the possibility of them having sex in the car that you "quickly dismissed this thought, as she is a very tall and curvy girl wearing a goose down parka, driving an older ford focus. There's no chance she's able to have sex in that car", why did you rule out the very real possibility of her going in his vehicle or him following her in his vehicle, which could have been a much larger car, van, SUV, or station wagon that they could have had sex in? In the heat of the moment, if she was turned on by him enough to want to break the no play on the first date rule, what would stop her from also breaking other rules, especially since having sex with other men is no longer forbidden to her in her marriage? The other guy could have easily told her that she either wants sex or she does not, and to forget about all of these silly "not on a first date", take photos, and other such rules, and she went along with it. Bottom line, she knew that if she had sex with him in his vehicle and told you that they only touched, that although you would be mad about it, you would not end the marriage over this incident, and she was right.


It amazes me how people have come to rely on technology to the extent that they accept it as the absolute truth.

Example: You have GPS on her phone. You have GPS in her car.

She meets guy in a bar. Want sex with him. Knows it is against all rules. Leaves bar with him. He follow her in her little car in his big, big, roomy SUV or van. They park beside each other in a lonely deserted spot. She goes into his huge vehicle and.................

All the while the phone GPS and car GPS are pinging at the same location and she is not answering or sending photos. 

So you conclude she can't be having sex because her car is so small. 

Really? Wake up! GPS devices are physical electronics that you can leave behind. Not something implanted in your body.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Take it from a guy that use to be in the sex trade, When your women is letting another guy f-ck her, it mean she doesn't think highly of you. A woman that has respect for you and the marriage ain't going for an open marriage deal. I don't give a damn what anybody says. Of the many I've known, I've never run across it except twice where the woman actually loved and respected her husband. I'll be willing to bet old pyroman is history.
> If you want something in your corral that any cowboy can mount, get a horse.


No cowboy I know is going to let you mount his horse!

Just sayin'.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

pyroman5000 said:


> Pardon in advance for my rambling.
> 
> My wife of 9 years and I have been swinging for the past 3 years now. It all started with a particularly intense line of questioning, based on a game of truth or dare. We were effectively trapped in a truck (road trip) for 3 days and we couldn't really do any dares, so it was basically truth or truth, with brutal honesty and the promise to not get angry. A lot of young couples would consider this dangerous territory. We learned a great deal about ourselves and eachother those days. Most importantly, that we both agree that love and sex are two completely different things, and do not always have to be mutually inclusive. The idea that we, as a couple, could not have all the same kinds of fun as single people can (simply because we are a couple) was discouraging, and we decided to put together a set of rules, and work together in achieving these sexy adventures.
> 
> ...


I am not against open relationships in the sense that I am outraged by the immorality. But I think they are reckless to marriage and doomed to failure long term, human nature being what it is.

I know she broke a rule, and that may "explain" your unhappiness to you. But the strength of the pain this infraction has caused you suggest you subconscious has been a lot less satisfied with this little adventure than you realized.

You have a rule that says either one of you can stop this at any time. EXERCISE IT NOW. 

Tell your wife you marriage is much more important to you that these games. Tell her she is precious to you and if you had understood the danger this game posed to your marriage, you never would have done it.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Take it from a guy that use to be in the sex trade, When your women is letting another guy f-ck her, it mean she doesn't think highly of you. A woman that has respect for you and the marriage ain't going for an open marriage deal. I don't give a damn what anybody says. Of the many I've known, I've never run across it except twice where the woman actually loved and respected her husband. I'll be willing to bet old pyroman is history.
> If you want something in your corral that any cowboy can mount, get a horse.


Yep. 

And take it from me as a woman -- if your guy is letting other men f*ck you, you understand he does not truly respect you and is not protective of you or your marriage.

I have a friend who just told me she and her H are in an "ethical open marriage" - this all started when he busted her cheating and she explained that she has always been capable of loving two men. They both now openly have a boyfriend/girlfriend. 

They have all kinds of rules and explanations for how this can work, but time will tell. I'm quite skeptical.

She insists her husband is the love of her life, but also told me in private that she believes he's mainly going along with this for her, and that yes she feels jealous of his girlfriend but she ignores that because she doesn't want to lose her newfound freedom.

Their teenage kids even know about this. (ick!) I love her dearly but I think what she's doing is incredibly selfish and dumb and I don't believe she really cares about her husband or she would not pursue this.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

aine said:


> You take risks like this, you get burnt, it is inevitable.secondly, women and men are different when it comes to sex.
> Men are quite functionalist, women are not, she'll eventually connect with a guy and it will be more than sex, it is a matter of time.


Yep. That or the true horror of her husband letting - even encouraging - a bunch of other men and women to f*ck her like she was a piece of meat will hit her and she will feel disgusted with herself and her husband.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

2asdf2 said:


> No cowboy I know is going to let you mount his horse!
> 
> Just sayin'.


That same cowboy may not mind mounting somebody elses horse; Especially if he wants to demonstrate what a real cowboy feels like in the saddle. I think that maybe the crux pyroman's problem. His wife done rode with the wrong cowboy. :wink2:


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

She broke the "rules" because on some level she cared about him more than she cared about the rules/you.

You think your mistake was that she "played" alone, without you? Your presence wouldn't have changed the chemistry.

If the reason for no pictures is because he didn't want any taken of him, he would have not wanted you there watching either.

NoChoice gave the best answer yet. It was very detailed and deep, and gets to the core of why the concept of "open" marriages is just a head game for those professing to have them.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Yep.
> 
> And take it from me as a woman -- if your guy is letting other men f*ck you, you understand he does not truly respect you and is not protective of you or your marriage.


Word.



WorkingWife said:


> *I have a friend who just told me she and her H are in an "ethical open marriage" - this all started when he busted her cheating and she explained that she has always been capable of loving two men.* They both now openly have a boyfriend/girlfriend.


Blah blah blah

She got caught cheating. There's nothing "ethical" about that, and all of this "ethical open marriage" bullsh*t is nothing more than an ad hoc/ex post facto band-aid aimed at keeping their marriage on life support just long enough for the kids to finish growing up, get out of the house, and establish themselves (Hell, maybe not even that long).

She might not believe that, but you can bet that her husband does.



WorkingWife said:


> They have all kinds of rules and explanations for how this can work, but time will tell. I'm quite skeptical.


And you should be. If they're still together -- and happy -- a year after their kids are fully out of the house and on their own, then _maybe_ they can say that it worked for them.



WorkingWife said:


> She insists her husband is the love of her life...


LOLOLOLOL

So is her AP now her boyfriend?



WorkingWife said:


> ...but also told me in private that she believes he's mainly going along with this for her, and that yes she feels jealous of his girlfriend but she ignores that because she doesn't want to lose her newfound freedom.


:lol: :rofl:

She's probably going to lose quite a bit more than that once the kids are out on their own.



WorkingWife said:


> Their teenage kids even know about this. (ick!) I love her dearly but I think *what she's doing is incredibly selfish and dumb and I don't believe she really cares about her husband or she would not pursue this.*


Exactly correct.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

pyroman5000 said:


> Pardon in advance for my rambling.
> 
> My wife of 9 years and I have been swinging for the past 3 years now. It all started with a particularly intense line of questioning, based on a game of truth or dare. We were effectively trapped in a truck (road trip) for 3 days and we couldn't really do any dares, so it was basically truth or truth, with brutal honesty and the promise to not get angry. A lot of young couples would consider this dangerous territory. We learned a great deal about ourselves and eachother those days. Most importantly, that we both agree that love and sex are two completely different things, and do not always have to be mutually inclusive. The idea that we, as a couple, could not have all the same kinds of fun as single people can (simply because we are a couple) was discouraging, and we decided to put together a set of rules, and work together in achieving these sexy adventures.
> 
> ...


end this sham. because it looks like just a whole bunch of BS rationalization...from both of you. 

you need a do over -doubt it's possible since this has gone on too long. maybe your next relationship will be better....as hopefully, this experience will make you wiser.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Word.
> 
> Blah blah blah
> 
> She got caught cheating. There's nothing "ethical" about that, and all of this "ethical open marriage" bullsh*t is nothing more than an ad hoc/ex post facto band-aid aimed at keeping their marriage on life support just long enough for the kids to finish growing up, get out of the house, and establish themselves (Hell, maybe not even that long).


And apparently it wasn't the first time she cheated on him. But also, their marriage was born out of the affair they had while she was engaged to and then married to her first husband. So clearly neither of them can really be trusted. 




GusPolinski said:


> If they're still together -- and happy -- a year after their kids are fully out of the house and on their own, then _maybe_ they can say that it worked for them.


Their youngest is a senior this year though both kids still live at home. When they told the youngest he asked "Will you still make us dinner?"

Shows how much kids want a sense of security. 

I hate to think what this role modeling does for future relationships of her kids. 



GusPolinski said:


> So is her AP now her boyfriend?


Ah, hahahah here is the REALLY rich part.

She was shocked and hurt that the minute her marriage went "Open" the original AP decided he could not continue to see her for religious reasons.

My guess it the truth was more like - it's no fun if it's not sneaky and God forbid my wife find out now that your husband knows.

And it just occurred to me - so much for her "ethics" if the person she's cheating with is married and she helps hide that from his spouse.

Current AP is from a dating site. He knows of her marriage and that it's all open and would rather have a monogamous girlfriend, but I guess he'll take what he can get from her.



GusPolinski said:


> She's probably going to lose quite a bit more than that once the kids are out on their own.
> 
> Exactly correct.


I don't know if she cares. She's definitely playing with fire. Has a beautiful home she loves and is part of the community in some ways. The two of them seem very well suited for each other personality wise. But how much could she really care if she had the affairs in the first place?

ALSO - I have my own marital problems in that I've basically been supporting my husband our entire marriage, and there are other things. When I was visiting these friends (and learned all this) they were encouraging me to divorce my husband. I admit I did pile on about my frustrations with him, which was wrong, but when I said he's working hard to make our marriage better and I didn't want a second divorce on my record they were incredulous at the idea that divorcing was something you should not do if you were not happy. Two divorces? Who cares. You took vows? Who cares. If you're not totally happy, go out there and get someone better! That was their mindset.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Once you allow another man to put his penis in your wife you can't complain about when things go awry. Look, the wife and I fantasize about all sorts of crazy ****, but we don't move forward on it, why? Because when we cum we immediately know it's just a bad idea, better kept fantasy.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> And apparently it wasn't the first time she cheated on him. But also, their marriage was born out of the affair they had while she was engaged to and then married to her first husband. So clearly neither of them can really be trusted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And why are you still friends with these people? They are toxic friends which to not add to your life, but detract from it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> And apparently it wasn't the first time she cheated on him. But also, their marriage was born out of the affair they had while she was engaged to and then married to her first husband. So clearly neither of them can really be trusted.
> 
> Their youngest is a senior this year though both kids still live at home. When they told the youngest he asked "Will you still make us dinner?"
> 
> ...





IMFarAboveRubies said:


> And why are you still friends with these people? They are toxic friends which to not add to your life, but detract from it.


Yeah... you might want to re-evaluate your choice in friends.


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## pyroman5000 (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm on my phone right now and can't properly quote/reply like I did earlier.

I have read all the messages so far, very carefully. Rest assured, I am not taking this lightly. Its a big deal and every little decision I make will have a huge impact on the future of our relationship.

That being said I do need to clarify a few things that some replies are hung up on. Sorry for ending a sentence with a preposition.

She came in contact with the guy only a few days earlier. He responded to one of my ads in which I seek out guys for her to play with. We used to do that together but she, at the time, thought it would be fun to do this instead. I found the guy, screened him a bit, then sent him to her favorite messaging app, kik. They sent all of 30 messages or so before agreeing to meet for coffee (for my american friends, tim hortons is like a starbucks. For my fellow canucks, sorry for that reference). He does not drive, he walked there from a subway station. Being an expert of the android operating system I have already verified all of this via regular remote FTP backups.

I refuse to believe that this was premeditated or that she developed some sort of emotional connection. After that night they havent communicated with eachother at all. This happened after 20 or so successful play dates over the span of a little over two years, and was the 4th time she met someone over coffee without me. Im 100% convinced that nothing more than what Ive already mentioned has happened. The issue I have is not trying to figure out if she is being dishonest, but rather how best to proceed from here.

I wont try to convince the nay-sayers that an open relationship is righteous and fun and whathaveyou, but I do respect your opinions and I do realize theres a high failure rate. The reason we haveny acted on rule #2 is simply that weve had way too many successful encounters to just call the whole thing off after one bad evening. Theres a problem and we will deal with it and move on, though I'm not sure exactly how yet. She is remorseful, and still blames her own inability to say no to a particularly pushy guy, who in fact was also given a copy of our list of rules before I gave him her username. He clearly had his own interests in mind.

To the gent who suggests I'm being a bunghole about this, I appreciate the direct honesty of your opinion, but the fact shes done 'more with others before' isnt a valid point. She wrote the rules with me, and then was sweettalked into breaking them. Of course she is submissive to the point of just doing what shes told (her preferred dynamic in a relationship), and had I been there the guy might not have been so pushy about it. My wife is not the type of person to say "to hell with my husband, I want this", she knows she can have whatever she wants as long as I'm in the loop, and I have that same privilege. 

Again I respect all your opinions, even those who say abandon all play. Whether or not I take your individual advice, know that I am giving each reply very serious thought and it is helping greatly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> And why are you still friends with these people? They are toxic friends which to not add to your life, but detract from it.


Actually, they're relatives. I was trying to change a few facts for privacy's sake. This is my closest relative my age that I grew up with. I just learned these things the last time I visited. I am very close to her but I have long known she differs from me greatly when it comes to moral values. (My first clue was back when we were about 11 and she showed me things she shoplifted.)

I think what she's doing is stupid, but I guess I figure it is her life to screw up - and if her husband is willing to participate in this charade I think it's for them to figure out. In our relationship I don't have any expectations of her other than being someone I can talk to. An open marriage is nothing I would ever try or tolerate, but while I think it's incredibly risky and stupid - if both parties agree to it, I don't see it as wrong. 

It does bother me about her kids knowing though. And I am aware she is not a friend to marriage and I won't be disclosing any of my list of grievances re my marriage with them again - inviting suggestions I divorce.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

pyroman5000 said:


> ...Of course she is submissive to the point of just doing what shes told (her preferred dynamic in a relationship), and had I been there the guy might not have been so pushy about it. ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With a personality like that, I would fear that she is doing most of this "for" you than because she truly wants all these sexual partners.

Everyone is an individual but as a general rule, women are wired very differently than men when it comes to sex and happens but is not *common *that one truly enjoys sex with strangers or multiple people.

I have a very submissive personality too. Something I am working on... I have never given into group sex before, but I have let men walk all over me in so many ways I cringe thinking about it. And when I think back, I allowed it because I did not have the strength to say NO. In fact I talked myself into believing it was fine with me.

But I came to deeply resent the man in my life was so selfish to take advantage of my sweet, giving, compliant nature rather than protect me from myself by refusing to cash in on my weakness.

You are turning your wife lose to have sex with strangers. Take the sex out of it - do you know how many predators there are on the internet? And don't you think swinging might attract a high percentage of them? 

For the sake of her safety alone I would never let my wife go meet up with a strange man alone knowing nothing more about him that what he revealed in text messages.

This one "did not respect your rules." The next one may be a sadist or serial killer.

This is your *wife*. Please think about it.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah... you might want to re-evaluate your choice in friends.


I know. I just posted above to Rubies - she's actually a close relative not just a friend. Then I attempted to justify my choice to remain close to her. But then in my next post to the original OP I admitted how weak I can be. I love her and I share a lot of history with her that means a lot to me. But her letting her kids know about this really creeps me out. She and her H seem to think they've found the holy grail secret to happiness at this time. They think they are truly liking this. So maybe they think it's good to role model an open marriage to their teen children, but I think it's parental malpractice. I'm still rationalizing for her though. I have very few people I'm truly close to. I don't want to give her up...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> Actually, they're relatives.


Ugh. I have them too, but don't need the drama (and the "Yuck, I need to take a shower now.") so I just let them go......

Less interaction is best. Eventually, they just go away.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I had a male neighbor who was into the lifestyle and his wife ended up leaving him for one of their affair partners. 

It's always the guys who are so "proud" of their swinging wives, and who go on and on and on about how great it is to share their wives, who end up getting burned the worst.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I know a couple who does this.....they seem to be happy but they also say there are very few couples really cut out for it. Even most of the ones who do it aren't really cut out for it.....men and women are different in how they view sex. I suspect that many men go into this sort of thing with blinders.....they get so wrapped up in being able to fvck other women that they don't consider that:

A: Their wife will have a much easier time finding sex partners then they will
B: It is extremely likely that their wife will connect with another guy at some point.

It's always seemed to me that once you open this box it's very difficult to control things. And if your aim is to prevent your wife from becoming emotionally attached to someone else you're fighting a losing battle.....it will happen. She might not dump you for him but her emotional energy will be split.

It's certainly between you guys what you do with other adults but it would be interesting to see your wife's reaction if you cut this thing off. She agreed to the condition but if she's in any way emotionally invested in anyone else or at all disconnected from you she won't be happy about it.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Despite everything in me telling me that this is not real, I choose to ignore those well honed instincts and respond again. I will try to provide advice that will cross the swinger/monogamy divide. 

First, you have fallen into the usual BS trap and have said that your wife was "sweet talked" into breaking your rules. She's submissive, etc. The usual male BS default position. Your wife was lead astray. That is crap. It is giving her a pass where none is deserved. Embrace it, she cheated or broke those sacrosanct rules you mentioned. No sweet talk, just good ole intentional cheating.

Second, your rules mean nothing. I don't say this as a judgment on your lifestyle. That's the same as saying your vows mean nothing to a monogamous couple. You guys wrote your "rules/vows" she broke them. That particular rule meant nothing to her.

Thirdly, you are gonna do nothing. This is not a judgment, its just a fact. You will tell us how good its been. You will say that one breach can't end "what you have together". You will say that she won't be given a second chance...but she will be given many. Therefore, you will ultimately change your rules or the consequences for violating them. No consequence means, effectively, no rule.

to sum it up, as I understand you and to use your words: your wife's desire to engage in mechanical sexual conduct with another man for pleasure was far more important to her than your rules designed to protect your love and commitment to each other. What are YOU gonna do? Asking us is pointless.

good luck.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know a couple who does this.....they seem to be happy but they also say there are very few couples really cut out for it. Even most of the ones who do it aren't really cut out for it.....men and women are different in how they view sex. I suspect that many men go into this sort of thing with blinders.....they get so wrapped up in being able to fvck other women that they don't consider that:
> 
> A: Their wife will have a much easier time finding sex partners then they will
> *B: It is extremely likely that their wife will connect with another guy at some point.*
> ...


That would be the guy spouting off stuff like "...if I were your husband, I'd NEVER share you... I'd want you all to myself...".


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

You bought it all on yourself. You have nobody else to blame.

What did you expect when you gave your woman permission to be taken by other guys?

These arrangements always end in disaster


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I am in an open relationship myself. The truth about swinging is about 50% transition into polyamory. So, sex can often make another person fall in love. In fact, prostitute have shown to fall in love with their customers.

During sex, bonding hormones is being release, it is just when you sleep with a stranger, it tends to fade fast, but the love senter of the brain does light up after sex as neuro science shows.

That is why in swinging, most will not sleep with the same person over and over again. Females fall more in love and form attachments more than men.

You should google the research .

Btw, her taking risk like that shows high levels of attraction or the beginning of romantic love. The risk taking is an indicator of that behavior. Btw, people that fall in love with a one night stand have a mrriage success rate of 70%. So, it is possible to fall in love after one sexual encounter where one may not be looking.

My attitude is that if my gf leaves, then I simply move on to someone else. You take responsibility for the environment you place your relationship in.

I suggest closing it for a while and strengthening that bond. How strong do you believe your bond really is? Just because she loves you, it does not mean she cannot fall in love with someone else and be more in love with someone else.

Love is a biochemical, hormonal response. So , it can be measured.

Perhaps , the rules need to change back to having you present. There is a higher level of intimacy when it comes to 1 on 1. More of that bonding is aim towards one person. There is a reason why bonds have a lesser chance of forming with you around.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You're trying to apply logic to sex and love. Sex is all about biology, chemistry, hormones and feelings. The right guy comes along, rings her bell and you will be looking for a new wife. You're not even close to first guy here that thought swinging was the right way to go. Otoh, I don't recall any swinging women here that lost a husband.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> As I see it the answer to your problem is to make another rule or perhaps redefine an existing one. I fine it curious that you initiated so many rules just so you could break the monogamy rule of marriage. As I have stated many times before, the term "open marriage" is an oxymoron and cannot exist. There cannot exist a relationship that is polymonogomous.
> 
> In any event, when agreeing to break the rule of monogamy in your marriage you in essence agreed that you two can set any rules you desire for marriage. This is not so. You can break the rule but you cannot change what is a universally accepted concept. Your best course of action would have been to enter into a polyamorous relationship and to forgo the marital ties. Instead you chose to enter into the traditional marital arrangement and then change it to meet your desires by initiating a complex set of rules which supersede your vows.
> ...


Very well put, No Choice.

I could come on here and give 15 solid reasons why open marriages are disasters and rejected by most and why I feel they are wrong. However, I guess it's not my job here to do that on this site. 

I do like what was said by someone else in that there are other sites that Pyroman can copy and paste his story to and get help. 

As Happyasaclam said, I can't even relate nor do I want to. Pyroman entered dangerous territory. 

I think Gus nailed down some pretty good ideas here too


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



agreed Gus. Completely


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> And apparently it wasn't the first time she cheated on him. But also, their marriage was born out of the affair they had while she was engaged to and then married to her first husband. So clearly neither of them can really be trusted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your story reminds me of why I stay away from all open marriage people. I hope you are keeping them at arms length. Most of the open marriage people I have run across and trying to rope other happily married people into it when they are at their weakest. So I avoid them


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know a couple who does this.....they seem to be happy but they also say there are very few couples really cut out for it. Even most of the ones who do it aren't really cut out for it.....men and women are different in how they view sex. I suspect that many men go into this sort of thing with blinders.....they get so wrapped up in being able to fvck other women that they don't consider that:
> 
> A: Their wife will have a much easier time finding sex partners then they will
> B: It is extremely likely that their wife will connect with another guy at some point.
> ...



I agree with you regarding point A and B. A is definitely correct
I will add C. How can anyone in this type of relationship feel that when they make love to their spouse after they've been with other men/women, that it is somehow special ? I would feel like just a number. And if they run into someone better than you, who goes back to store brand ice cream when they have gotten used to Basking Robbins ?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> Your story reminds me of why I stay away from all open marriage people. I hope you are keeping them at arms length. Most of the open marriage people I have run across and trying to rope other happily married people into it when they are at their weakest. So I avoid them


I only see them about once a year. And my H never goes with me. 

That is a very interesting observation though because she told me, and I was non judgmental like "hey, if that works for you..." And then later the three of us were talking. They know I've had some frustration in my marriage and think I could have done much better. So they were hinting at things like "just get divorced if you're not happy, there are tons of people out there, you're not too old, etc." I thought that was just 'cause they think I want a divorce and don't have the strength to do it.

BUT THEN they asked me "So what do you think of the polyamarous (whatever it's called) lifestyle? Like it was some great thing that I (or my husband and I) might enjoy. I said "Hey, if you like it that's great but it's not for me." they seemed genuinely surprised and asked "why not?" I said "It absolutely does not appeal to me on any level. The idea of seeing multiple men at once? That makes me feel stressed and anxious and icky - For me? I would have zero desire to eve do that." The seemed actually perplexed by this.

I have two theories now:
1. If people are doing something they deep down think is wrong, they want other people to do it too to make them feel better about their choices.

2. They are so busy playing head games with themselves trying to maintain their own belief that they're happy with what they're doing that they can't allow room in their mind that others truly do not even DESIRE to do that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know a couple who does this.....they seem to be happy but they also say there are very few couples really cut out for it. Even most of the ones who do it aren't really cut out for it....*.men and women are different in how they view sex. I suspect that many men go into this sort of thing with blinders.....they get so wrapped up in being able to fvck other women that they don't consider that:*
> 
> A: Their wife will have a much easier time finding sex partners then they will
> B: It is extremely likely that their wife will connect with another guy at some point.
> ...


Yeah...well...

I agree with you in part. Men do tend to think with their peckers. But it's not just men who walk into this crap blindly. There are a lot of horny party wives out there who instigate the swinging lifestyle because, frankly, they are the types who get bored quickly and who are always looking for a new thrill. They have the goods and they know there are a lot of new men out there shopping. 

The gulf between men and women seems to be narrowing in this day and age, and I think in many ways women are pulling ahead when it comes to bringing this stuff into the marriage. I have no statistics to back that up. It's just a hunch I have looking at all the empirical information.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Pyroman,

You don't mention if you have children or not, because that has a bearing on this matter.

Also if you wish to have children at some time in future will you discontinue this lifestyle.

Can you imagine being 50 or 60 years old and still married to your W and looking back on this period in your life?

The plain fact is that your W cheated on you, and you may never be able to trust her again so if you have no kids it may be easier just to get divorced.

Tamat


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I only see them about once a year. And my H never goes with me.
> 
> That is a very interesting observation though because she told me, and I was non judgmental like "hey, if that works for you..." And then later the three of us were talking. They know I've had some frustration in my marriage and think I could have done much better. So they were hinting at things like "just get divorced if you're not happy, there are tons of people out there, you're not too old, etc." I thought that was just 'cause they think I want a divorce and don't have the strength to do it.
> 
> ...


Very well said and BTW I wasn't even remotely being critical of you. I have read your stuff here and I have the utmost appreciation for your values and posting history. They mirror mine. 

Your story above illustrated my point. Your observations based on your interactions there are spot on IMO and I have tremendous respect for you as a poster.

I'll tell you something about me. I am 46, multiple relationships and one failed marriage before my current successful one of 18 years (10 married). Never cheated, never will. The second I hear "let's open this', I am out. When people give away for free what many of us only wish we had previously, I can't fathom it.

Also, that's the way open marriage people operate. They see a weakness and try to exploit. Sorry they attempted to sway you into that way of life and good for you rejecting it
Thanks again for your thoughts Workingwife


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

TAMAT said:


> Pyroman,
> 
> You don't mention if you have children or not, because that has a bearing on this matter.
> 
> ...


My question is if he realized she couldn't be monogamous and figured that he wanted a degree of stability by not getting divorced and said "well, if it's going to be this way, at least let me get mine". However, Lifeistooshort had a good point in her point A. It's an uphill battle. Morally and ethically to me, it's a bad call. However, I agree with you. Easier to get divorced.

I do hope he overcomes what he's facing.

Just understand the situation you are putting yourself into.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> Very well put, No Choice.
> 
> I could come on here and give 15 solid reasons why open marriages are disasters and rejected by most and why I feel they are wrong. However, I guess it's not my job here to do that on this site.
> 
> ...


I fear he does not want to hear your reasons nor mine nor anyone else's since he has it all figured out with rules and exceptions.

However, one last thought. It is known that prophylactics are 98% effective against pregnancy and disease. That is 98 out of every 100 times but what of the other 2?


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks for the explanation on the background, OP. 

I do agree that it looks like in this case it wasn't an emotional bond that was formed, but was something else. Either way, whatever it was is a significant cause of concern and probably reason alone to put the stop breaks on anything else until you've solved your intra-marriage issues and intra-personal issues first. 

Back to basics, eh?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> You're trying to apply logic to sex and love. *Sex is all about biology, chemistry, hormones and feelings.* The right guy comes along, rings her bell and you will be looking for a new wife. You're not even close to first guy here that thought swinging was the right way to go. Otoh, I don't recall any swinging women here that lost a husband.


That it is....

Like the song. "Syrup is still syrup in a sippy cup".

OP can Dress it up all he wants -it is what it is. 

a slow motion ending


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## pyroman5000 (Sep 25, 2015)

Virtually all of our encounters have been one-off, she barely even remembers any names. There's one guy she likes to cam with, he lives in Germany. She shows me all his messages, and usually doesn't do a show for him unless I'm around to watch. He was an online friend of mine before I sent him her way, we don't chat much anymore anyway. I'm fairly certain that an emotional connection will eventually happen with someone down the line, but we will deal with it together. It's happened before that guys get too attached, and she always brings it up with me, and she is always quick to flush them. Emotionally I'm her one and only, and she wouldn't risk that any more than I would.



lifeistooshort said:


> A: Their wife will have a much easier time finding sex partners then they will


This was literally the first thing I thought of when we were deciding on our rules. It doesn't take a genius to realize that she will have guys throwing themselves at her wherever she goes, while I will more or less struggle. We agreed (though we didn't make it an explicit rule) to try and balance the male and female ratio. This means a lot of waiting, which we are both okay with. Couples and bi guys/girls were exempt from this.

To answer more questions, we do not have kids, though we do plan on having kids someday. We have an entire subset of rules outlined to deal with all possible scenarios, right down to the possibility of her getting pregnant by another man, or me getting another woman pregnant. We're willing to go as far as a polygamous live-in relationship if need be. In any scenario, the child will always have priority, and that can never be superseded by a rule. Several of our play partner couples have children, and though scheduling adult play time is a nightmare, it's a part of life. We would continue playing during the pregnancy, but stop when she's ready to pop, and for at least a few years after.

The main reason we decided to start experimenting in this lifestyle was simply because we didn't want to end up old and grey, and feel like we missed out on a lot of fun that a lot of people are having. But we are also doing it for each other. Her main hangup is her body. My main hangup is my stamina. She wants me to experience a petite girl the same way I want her to experience a solid hour of thrusting. Too much information perhaps, but, its for perspective. Again, the point of this thread is not to decide whether or not swinging is for us, but rather to decide how to move forward from a single evening of bad decisions. Not just for myself, but for others in similar situations who may wander in here in the future. I do feel many of the replies I'm getting are from those who haven't actually read my post, but I'm getting a lot of very interesting points of view from those who have.

We have talked some more and discussed her submissive role and that it doesn't mean she can just do as commanded, nor be coaxed into breaking our rules and attempt to justify it. She's mentioned she doesn't like having to text me and take pictures when she's playing without me, and that she likes to lose herself in the moment and allow herself to be used, which was not surprising but an eye-opener nonetheless. She's made it clear that when she plays solo, I become less of a priority than her own personal pleasure, which is contrary to why we are doing this in the first place (though that wasn't her intention). For these reasons, we will likely never play solo again. It will be back to good old fashioned group sex for us. After the holidays that is, we currently are taking some 'us' time to reassure eachother that our relationship is still solid. From what I see, she's not communicating with anyone currently, except her german cam slave and rarely her coworkers about work stuff (all married females, before you ask). We still say our I-love-yous, we still have regular sex, we still cook for eachother, cuddle on the couch, spank butts in passing, etc.

Again you people are magnificent beyond words, I appreciate your wisdom. I think I have all I need for now. Thank you all so so much.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

pyroman5000 said:


> . It will be back to good old fashioned group sex for us..


This made me LOL


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

So your wife is a submissive, and she was persuaded to break the rules because the male was with during the time of the encounter in question was able to persuade her while you were not there to hover over them. That's what it looks like to me. So your wife is - objectively speaking - weak willed by nature and she will more than likely "slip up" again. It's only a matter of time. Congratulations, you now have to be a regular c0ck blocker because you let the genie out of the bottle. 

Some people are so "emotionally evolved" that they don't realize that in many cases they are dragged into the most basic of instincts...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I feel dirty reading this thread. I'm going to go rinse off.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Stick a fork in it, it's done.

Not because you have an open marriage.

But because your wife has totally lost control of her sex life and has thrown away all the 'open' rules. Which, from the few folks I know in open relationships, honesty and agreeing to the rules is KEY.

You're not in an open relationship. You're being cheated on by your wife with random strangers.

Eject and think long and hard about getting into an open relationship ever again.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Pyroman,

There is another issue here, and it is analogous to what another poster said about condoms being effective 98% of the time. 

What percentage of men in swinging are just pretending to go along with the community rules, but deep down are possessive and psychotic individuals who are just looking for the next conquest? Is that 1% or 2% of the community, men often form obsessive attachments to women.

Tamat


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## pyroman5000 (Sep 25, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> Pyroman,
> 
> There is another issue here, and it is analogous to what another poster said about condoms being effective 98% of the time.
> 
> ...


We can try and deny our most primal instincts as much as possible, but in the end we will only be hypocrites. We are not monogamous by nature (unless you believe in Creationism), and we of the male gender are programmed to have sex with anything that moved. We are also extremely jealous, and that helps us fight for the right to mate. Sure we live in a different time now, where these actions and feelings are much less important to survival, but it's still programmed into our genetics.

Lets say you're married to someone for 10 years. You've been through it all, and there were no instances of infidelity on either side. But you're bored with having had sex with the same person for so long. One of four things can happen:


You split up. One, both, or none of you may be very deeply hurt by this, and it will take a long time to recover. Theres a chance you will find someone else, and you will be able to move on, though you will never forget. It will either be better or worse. Different, but not a replacement.
You cheat. Justify it in your head that you will get what you need, and so long as your partner doesn't find out, your relationship may benefit. Of course this is stupid and wrong on many levels. You will end up ignoring your partner and make your exciting affair(s) into a top priority. Too many people in todays world choose this path, indeed it is the reason for the existance of this very forum.
You work together to satisfy eachother. Some will just roleplay. Some will perform exhibitionism. Some will soft swap and some will open their marriage completely. Whatever works for the couple. This arrangement is likely to go sour, but it's also likely to succeed. Worst case is, you end up with one of the previous two outcomes.
You do nothing. You bite the bullet and stay together in a monogamous relationship. Unhealthy as it may be, it will eventually result in the parents from Everybody Loves Raymond. That is, of course, if the feelings of contempt building up over the years don't result in one of the first two outcomes.

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to discuss whether an open relationship is a good idea. I'm in one and I know it's a bad idea for most people. But because of the continued discussion on the very idea, I felt I had to put my logic on display. Personally I think a thread in another section of this website would be more appropriate for such discussion.

Another day has passed, and nothing has changed since my previous reply. I'm picking her up at work shortly, we will get some Subway, and then cuddle eachother to sleep.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Pyroman,
> 
> There is another issue here, and it is analogous to what another poster said about condoms being effective 98% of the time.
> 
> ...


My couple friends have told me that there have been a number of stalkerish obsessive nutjobs. All men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Pyroman,

If I ignore the swinging and just look at your Ws cheating on you, suspending my belief system for the time being..... I would

1) Expose the OM to his family, workplace, church, facebook, linkedin.

2) Confront the OM

There has to be a downside for this for OM. But there's not much else to do it's kinda like someone getting robbed in a bad neighborhood after going there on their free will.

This OM btw is an example of someone who violates the "rules" of this community.

Tamat


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

pyroman5000 said:


> *We can try and deny our most primal instincts as much as possible, but in the end we will only be hypocrites. We are not monogamous by nature (unless you believe in Creationism), and we of the male gender are programmed to have sex with anything that moved.* We are also extremely jealous, and that helps us fight for the right to mate. Sure we live in a different time now, where these actions and feelings are much less important to survival, but it's still programmed into our genetics.
> 
> Lets say you're married to someone for 10 years. You've been through it all, and there were no instances of infidelity on either side. But you're bored with having had sex with the same person for so long. One of four things can happen:
> 
> ...


Beautiful. Except you are forgetting a couple of crucial points. 

1) The neocortex trumps the hindbrain and limbic system. It just does unless...you WANT to be ruled by your baser instincts.

2) Monogamy evolved every bit as much as our moral codes/compass and our brains. On the surface, it may appear that religion is nothing but a set of silly beliefs that stymies the ability of humans to fully actualize their lives (like my fluff words? LOL). However, if you think about it monogamy either furthered our ability to create more elaborate civilizations or it is an outgrowth of more evolved civilizations.

To expand upon my point in item 2, i believe monogamy and the rule of law are dependant variables to an effective civilization. Honestly, why would anyone stop at simply embracing the limbic system and all it's glory? This type of logic is laughable to me because it's so arbitrary. If we, as a species, are designed to not be monogamous, then by all means embrace it. It's a free country and you have very right to live the way you choose. But don't try to play the "man is not designed to _____________" card when we know quite well that inserting different words can make this statement a bridge too far. If we are going to go down this path, then why can't we add the other parts of our species like "women have no role in controlling anything because they are weaker than men"? Or why would we allow people who are physically weaker than us have possessions when it would be within our "rights" to take the property if we have the might to do so"? 

If you really want to get down to brass tacks, then why couldn't I be within my rights to desire another man's wife and then go fight him for his woman and physically take her if I can defeat him in a fight? So tell me, why is it that monogamy is a bane that denies us our natural instincts to polyamory that is awesome to indulge in, but to deny our natural instincts of the more dominant males to physically take what they want when they want from lesser males out of bounds? Why pick in choose what should be embraced in our more basal natures while we discard others? Hmmmm.... Could it be our higher functioning brains are the real culprits? These situations have nothing to do with the limbic system our what our natural proclivities are as a species. It's the reasoning center of the brain that is logically determining what we can get away with when we indulge vs what would be illogical to pursue.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Researchers tell us unequivocally that we are monogamous creatures. We have some adaptations that compete with monogamy, but they don't negate it. The monogamy element is biologically specified. Armchair analysts are always spouting the line that we are obviously not monogamous because we want to have multiple partners over our lifetimes, but wanting multiple partners doesn't rule out monogamy.

Anyway...I think this must be exhausting for the OP. It's like a full-time job for the two of them - trolling for hookups, vetting hookups, planning 'playtime,' writing rules, policing rules, tracking the spouse, exacting consequences. Do you two have jobs?


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