# Questions about FalseR



## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm interested in people's thoughts about False Reconciliation. I started this thread as I'm interested in general thoughts about it, not specifically relating to my situation- so I thought it warranted a separate post. 

After spending some time in CWI, I see that some posters seem nonplussed by FalseR, as if it is almost _expected_ that a disloyal spouse, particularly the cake-eaters, will relapse and take it underground. Some posters see FalseR as just a continuation of the affair. It it sometimes presented as if a disloyal is like any other addict- its almost unbelievable if they _don't_ fall off the wagon. 

I'm having trouble with understanding and dealing with the insidious betrayal of FalseR. In my disloyal wife's case I see the FalseR as a distinctly different phase of the affair. Part one was mostly online, very fantasy based, little real world overlap, two oral sex sessions IRL before and on Dday1. It seemed easy to keep the worlds from overlapping. On Dday my DS lied and TT'd me like crazy so I didn't know that she'd already taken it PA.

Affair part two, FalseR, occurs about a month after Dday1 and is more insidious- requiring face-to-face lying about whereabouts, knowing hiding of secret accounts, allowing OM in the house, fantasy fulfillment for OM, and escalation to full PIV sex. It was pretty damn clear what I was going though mentally, physically, and emotionally. 

Questions for WS: Did you put your spouse through a FalseR? If so, how did you manage to separate the clear and obvious pain your affair caused your spouse, and continue it? How long did you make an attempt, honest or not, to work on R before you broke NC or caved in to the OM/OW advances? 

Questions for BS: Were you the victim of a FalseR? Did it affect your desire to reconcile? Do you think multiple affairs, different APs, is worse than a FalseR? 

Thanks in advance.


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## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

A false R is far worse than multiple affair partners. Because the wife has the chance to see you and your kid get hurt, she has the chance to force herself into a "my husband or him choice", she is given a second chance. 

And after having seen all this, if she cheats again it tells you a lot. It says that what she felt for the other man was more powerful than the potentially fallout of losing what she has. There is fog involved where a women is in fantasy land, and things seem better than they are.

But in life, we are confronted with risk reward decisions all the time. I really want a Porsche, but that doesn't mean I will rob someone to get one no matter how strong the desire is. 

An affair tells you a lot about a spouse. But a false R tells you even more. The fact that she was able to override all instincts to keep her family together in order to pursue the A, not once but twice tells you the OM had a very strong pull on her.

A are hard to get over, but false R are the worst. I haven't known anyone to survive this because when you forgive you really put yourself out there. And if the WS cheats again its kinda like getting kicked while you are down.

One thing to consider Dr. I know your wife came out of the fog because you caught her again. And this time losing you hit closer to home and became more real.

But have you thought of any scenarios where WW would have been exposed by you and left with OM? what if the OM had played his cards differently. What if he was faithful to your WW and he started getting really successful in Hollywood. Now leaving you for the OM seems a lot less like a pathetic fantasy and more like a legitimate option.

In other words. What is it that brought your WW out of the fog. Is it because of her love for you or is it because OM did not measure up to her expectations? 

If it was her deep love for you that brought her out of the fog then why didn't that happen after the first A was discovered? If it was that the OM did not measure up to what she expected that brought her out of the fog, then what happens if she meets someone that does measure up to her fantasy? Will she cheat again?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dr. Mathias, why did you start this thread? Has Mrs. Mathias said or done anything to arouse your suspicions that she is continuing to be unfaithful? Or are you simply trying to be pro-active, so you can identify false R if it occurs?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Here's my take on False R for what its worth. I think false R occurs either when the person really doesn't care about the marriage or if that person is so caught up in the feelings of the affair that they literally have no perspective. In the case of the former the decision to D is the correct one. In the latter case I think it depends on whether the cheater eventually commits to heavy IC to find out why and how they were so easily blinded to reality in the face of an obvious fantasy. If applied to you case specifically I would say that your wife's occupation in drama significantly contributed to the embrace of her fantasy life when confronted with a less than pleasant reality. She needs to find a way to strengthen her resolve and learn to confront problems head on without resorting to the head in the sand tactics of earlier. I think this entire situation has really helped her in the sense that she now sees embracing fantasy only works in theater and not real life. She still need to explore herself in order to drive that message home and strengthen her resolve if face with a similar scenario in the future.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Dr. Mathias, why did you start this thread? Has Mrs. Mathias said or done anything to arouse your suspicions that she is continuing to be unfaithful? Or are you simply trying to be pro-active, so you can identify false R if it occurs?


I find myself thinking about FalseR a lot, in general, not just related to me. I didn't intend to start a DrM sub thread. I doubt I'd know a FalseR if it bit me on the ankle at this stage.

How common is a FalseR? I doubt all FalseR is even exposed, the DS and AP keep it going, it dissolves, then the DS decides 'its time to work on marriage I guess'. BS never knows, and is happy to have their disloyal spouse reengaged. 

I'm extremely curious to hear WS's thoughts in particular on this subject- why not just leave your spouse? Why drag your partner deeper into the abyss of pain? 

How can it possibly be safe to work on a marriage with someone able to detach so fully, who can selectively (conscious or not) ignore the person they married? 

Part of me wants to learn to compartmentalize my feelings like these automata waywards seems to do so I can enjoy my hobbies and art creation again. I keep thinking of Nazi doctors and their ability to detach- and that's not good to think about.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

I was the victim of a false R. While the marriage could have survived the original affair, it did not survive the false R.

It is a doubly cruel and selfish act on the part of the WS.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Summer brought up some good points. Points I didn't even think of. They hit home for me.

I was trying to figure out why my wife did a FalseR myself. I agree she knows clearly the pain I am in. And then to get caught twice during FalseR and to lie, pulling the wool over my eyes and the therapist as well was even more painful.

At the end of the FalseR her simple line was she was trying to work it out with me. Even the Therapist scoffed at that comment. 

Again as Summer mentioned, it is the actions of the FalseR and the actions afterwards which make reconcile nearly impossible. In my case without my STBXW really, really exposing her own emotions and heart. I mean literal public begging. Putting yourself out on the line exposed to be shut down. That is the only time I would even consider doing anything. Even then it would be tough and a long arduous process before I ever would commit again. 

That is how bad FalseR affected me. FalseR is worse because both of you know. There is no excuse a person can give.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I think the big thing here is that you dont really know you are in False R til its too late. You either discover it was all a sham with some new evidence or you realize your WS isnt doing what they need to do in order for you to heal.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Sometimes I think it's WS' exercise in stubbornness, in attempt to bring the slipping sense of control back.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I think the big thing here is that you dont really know you are in False R til its too late. You either discover it was all a sham with some new evidence or you realize your WS isnt doing what they need to do in order for you to heal.


In my case, I got both. I finally realized he wasn't actually doing anything to help our R, about the same time he finally felt guilty enough to confess to two additional OW. So, pretty much overnight, I went from two years into R to having to deal with a sexting affair and a PA that I hadn't known about before committing two freakin' years of my life to R. The degree to which that sucked cannot possibly be overstated. 

For me, it was the feeling that my husband had been sitting back snickering under his breath over his "little secret" while I busted my @ss trying to rebuild a great marriage from the ashes of his torrid EA - for two solid years - that I just couldn't get over.


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## 3rotties (Jan 28, 2013)

I was in a False R and decided yesterday I will leave and take my daughter with me. I had that"instict" feeling it was False, but was scared to do anything about it. My WH continues to have contact and I beleive he has taken it underground. I think as we start R, the Fog disguises our doubts and leads us to believe R is the answer. Unfortunately, very few marriages can survive and fully recover. The question you have to ask yourself is" Do I want to spend the rest of my life pretending to be happy, pretending to be in R, only to be disappointed time and time again?"


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Many posters have gone through false R here and still reconciled. There are as many reasons as posters. One thing, the worst, is simply false R was just a way to fool the the BS, others simply fall back into it. Some are sincere and change their mind.

I may be wrong but its like any other addiction. Backsliding is almost to be expected. Few people I know, for example, quit smoking the first time they try. Having been around a while, I can't count on one hand the people I have known that knowingly drank themseves to death.

There have been way more successful reconciliations here than you would imagine. Most get run off by rude posters. Many are banned because of responses they give to angry betrayed spouses that treat them like fools.

I really miss eightyearscheating and beowulf for example.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I guess I am one of the 'lucky' ones - we didn't have false R. Well, I guess you could kinda call one part of it 'false' - I kicked him out in March and we got back together in Sept - I allowed him to move home. Then in Nov he confessed that he'd hired a hooker in June while we were living apart but in MC trying to patch things up. That was all in 2010, and since then things have been really good. If he's lying now, he should move to Hollywood because he'd make zillions acting. Plus I checked up on him - a LOT at first, now it's trickled down to where I very rarely do any checking. We have the marriage today that we should have had all along if we'd done what we both needed to do!

If he'd stayed at home, though, I do sometimes wonder if he would have kept lying about what he was doing. I tend to think not - getting caught was his 'wake up call', and he quit his online shenanigans cold turkey.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Another reason for successful reconcilers to go missing here is the triggers, it is a hard site to keep coming back to. There is also the problem of getting betryaed spouse to understand information that seems counterintuitive. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone said " I wish I would have listened from the beginning".

BTW, 80% of couples who divorce over infidelity wish they had worked it out and saved thier families. Divorce ain't easy either.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> _At the end of the FalseR her simple line was she was trying to work it out with me. Even the Therapist scoffed at that comment. _
> 
> Again as Summer mentioned, it is the actions of the FalseR and the actions afterwards which make reconcile nearly impossible. _*In my case without my STBXW really, really exposing her own emotions and heart. I mean literal public begging. Putting yourself out on the line exposed to be shut down. That is the only time I would even consider doing anything. Even then it would be tough and a long arduous process before I ever would commit again.*_
> 
> That is how bad FalseR affected me. FalseR is worse because both of you know. There is no excuse a person can give.


That's what I was looking for as well.

Never got it. Probably never will.

Call me stupid, but after nearly 2 decades together,
you'd think I could get more out of her emotionally after
2 months of being separated than "I'm so so sorry, but I've said all I have to say."


Which is... not nearly enough.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

> Questions for WS: Did you put your spouse through a FalseR?


Yes. On the 1st Dday, I never admitted to PA. I only admitted to EA. Over the course of the following months, It sort of got swept under the rug. And we all know how well that works, huh?



> If so, how did you manage to separate the clear and obvious pain your affair caused your spouse, and continue it?


No way to word this other the fact. Pure selfishness. By not admitting to the full nature of the affair, and therefore not having to face the damage of what I had really done, it resulted in me further compartmentalizing. In my fog induced mind, I expected that if our relationship was to really improve, my wife would do everything to give me the happiness that I was looking prior to the affair. Needless to day, I was deluded.



> How long did you make an attempt, honest or not, to work on R before you broke NC or caved in to the OM/OW advances?


I was truely sincere when I initiated NC after dday 1. But in hindsight, I had felt so guilty for all the damage done to OW, I offered to keep in touch. Within a month or two, the emailing started and I quickly allowed myself to get pulled back in. This, again, was fueled by selfishness and not enough (if any) work on my part towards R. As the affair started deepening again, I really started to regret allowing it to resume. Looking back, I just did not want to be the bad guy that crushed both women. I felt trapped and powerless to get out.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Another reason for successful reconcilers to go missing here is the triggers, it is a hard site to keep coming back to.


I went a good stretch without really coming to TAM for this very reason. Heck, I still sometimes open the forum and log right back out.

I sometimes try to give advice on certain threads but others I just can't. I was pretty active in the "Reconciliation" thread for quite a while...I still read it but rarely post there. I love what B1 & EI are doing, but some of the other stories are just difficult to read. 


EDIT: Ooops...forgot about the inital question by DrM. While Regret was doing good work throughout our initial months of reconciliation, I would almost term it FalseR only because she trickle truthed from March 6th til August 30th about stupid details that weren't deal breakers. She was just embarrassed. While I don't think it would technically be called FalseR it sure as hell screwed up all that time we had spent working on things.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks for the responses all, in particular BackOnTrack. BoT, did you reconcile?


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

I don't really feel like DD and I fit the mold for False R, though we did technically have 2 DDays. 

DDay1, he caught me sexting with a friend of ours. Got very mad, yelled, threatened divorce, told me it had to stop. At this point, it was an EA. Though DD was mad, he chose not to expose and actually met with the xOM telling him to stop, but that we can all remain friends. xOM and I never sexted again, and did not interact for about 3 weeks to a month, though I did see him at various get-togethers with friends. DD seemed to "get over" the sexting, and it really wasn't talked about after a few days. We went back to normal, it seemed.

About a month after DDay1, xOM showed up at my office, and instead of telling him to go away and running home and telling my husband, I was flattered, and we started communicating again. And then things escalated, and the EA turned PA. I want to literally kick the sh!t out of myself thinking back on it. I hate what I did. 

DDay2 was in June, and that is when everything fell apart. DD confronted, exposed, kicked me out, I went permanent NC. I feel like I woke up and realized this wasn't some silly little game I was playing -this was my life, and DD's life, and our kids' lives, not to mention xOMW's life, and our parents and friends . . . I saw the pain and damage it did to my husband, the confusion and stress it placed on my kids, and there has been no false R. I hate what I did and hate my self for being capable of it. I could not do it again. The thought literally sickens me. I wish I had gotten to that place last February with the sexting. I would give anything to. But I got there eventually. I just hope that it will be enough.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

First, I didn't get to read every response...

I've worn the rose colored, light to dark tinted, and every shade of glasses imaginable when viewing the world and my XW's cheating... At this point, Ive switched to contacts and have little emotional investment in my opinions. Mostly detached, and growing more indifferent by the day. It is what its is, we are people. Sh*t happens. But here's the truth as I see it today...

DS's don't intend to "false "R". They are mostly confused and highly comprimised emotionally. They will crave and the rationalization hampster has been so frequenty used for so long that it is second nature, and extremely strong...

Much the same with an alcoholic or addict of any kind, there is no such thing "false sober". No one including a DS goes in intending to "fall off the wagon". The intention is always good. Along those lines, I think it's healthier to refer to a "false R" as a "failed R". False sounds fake, I dont think the attempt was ever fake... At some point they felt they were truelly trying.... But, because of the incredible difficulty of it for everyone involved... It failed.

Stepping back and looking at this objectively, take a look at statistics when someone attempts to stop smoking for example, or doing drugs, or alcohol... How many attempts did it take? 

It should almost literally be expected that they will slip and break NC, or relapse in some way to the drug... This is an addicition. It takes an extremely strong character to go 'cold turkey' and resist the 'beast'... They have proven by having engaged in an affair, that an iron will and character are not exactly strengths.

I could probably talk about this for hours... There are a great many factors that are at play in an individual and an environment that contribute to a Failed reconcilitation attempt... I think it's well documented and should be compiled exactly what you can do to give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and how to recognize and manage the factors which contribute to FalseR. It's been on my good intentions list for a longtime. lol.

Matter of fact, If I do... Im changing all the verbage. It shouldn't be thought of as "True or False" reconciliation... But rather "Failed or Successful" reconcilation.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I can't fathom anyone giving someone a SECOND chance like that. If my wife had another affair or went back to posOM at any time, it would make it easy for me to never look back. Infidelity is horrible, but someone who cheats, then falseR's and cheats again - that's pure f*cking evil, imo. My wife saw the devastation it caused me and it destroys her. If she did it again she's either completely insane, or evil. Either one is an instant deal breaker for me.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Great new thread. I like these "thinking it through" kind of things.

It seems that there are two things that false R means. The first is an attempt to pacify the BS to continue in an affair, and the second is a lack of effort by the WS to work throught the issues. 

Both probably occur to some level in most post affair relationships.

Dr. M had a large dose of the fake attempt between D-day 1 and D-day 2. Now the R is likely more serious for Mrs. M. Is it still false?

It also is a time for the emotions to change from panic and pain to a self-awareness of what they did, and what you deserve.

That is the grey area. The decision begins to shift from them acting poorly to you (the BS) deciding what your future should look like.

I hear people posting a few months into R that they are no longer reeling from the shock, but now they are realizing who their spouse is and how pathetic their choices were. If you are a morals/values type of person, this is your opening to exit with grace.

Regret? Most that D have probably have regrets. I would think most that R have regrets as well. 

R usually is a state of limbo. Spending excessive time in limbo is often a regret.

Just stuff I think about. I hope the Dr. M and others can make the choices on their own terms, in their own time.

Thanks everyone for sharing so many valuable insights. It really is helpful.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I went a good stretch without really coming to TAM for this very reason. Heck, I still sometimes open the forum and log right back out.
> 
> I sometimes try to give advice on certain threads but others I just can't. I was pretty active in the "Reconciliation" thread for quite a while...I still read it but rarely post there. I love what B1 & EI are doing, but some of the other stories are just difficult to read.


I lurked for about 2 years during the all of it. I felt too lost to contribute. I am amazed the Dr. M and others can share all of it so early in the game.

Kudos to you.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Another reason for successful reconcilers to go missing here is the triggers, it is a hard site to keep coming back to. There is also the problem of getting betryaed spouse to understand information that seems counterintuitive. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone said " I wish I would have listened from the beginning".
> 
> BTW, 80% of couples who divorce over infidelity wish they had worked it out and saved thier families. Divorce ain't easy either.


I spent some time yesterday reading up on a bunch of stuff just about divorce and regret. If only the WS would read it instead of the BS.. Utah actually requires a course giving out info like this before you can actually divorce.


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## gbonham77 (Feb 21, 2013)

just curious ..are you in R process now?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

As you know, I had a False R.... Six months after DD, and during MC (2 grand worth of it), after reading books and so forth... I discovered she'd started back up her EA about at the 3 month mark right under my nose (and I was constantly monitoring).

Her perception and “why” (post DD and after she committed to R): 
I wasn’t pleasant, and generally acting like your typical BS; snooping, lashing out, unwilling to work on that long list of complaints she had (her excuses for the A). We were constantly bickering and arguing. She felt unwanted. The world was crumbling down. The kids were noticing and having issues. She saw all this devastation.... and mostly blamed me for it because I was making a ‘big deal’ and not ‘letting it go already’.... She’d already told me ‘why’: I wasn’t the man she could respect and did not do _(list of grievances)___. Why wouldn’t I just accept that I was responsible for this happening?

That led to her hating coming home, hating seeing me, hating MC, hating ‘her life’. I was the tormentor and the one causing her hurt and making this so difficult. So... her EA partner made her feel good about herself, he comforted her, etc. She associated all the negative with me, all the positive with everything not involving me. (Note she did not associate any of it with her own choices and actions or the direction she was going)

Her “plan”. Placate and pacify me by ‘working on the marriage’ to see if I would change and make her happy again: Giving me the time to see if I could be the man she wanted so she wouldn’t need someone else. She rugswept the affairs as best she could like they are a symptom of my issues which were the real problem.​
_Shocker; It didn’t work. I wasn’t becoming “nicer”; I was hurt and in pain dealing with TT, continued lies, and a unremorseful wayward._ Since I wasn’t making her happy, she needed someone to ‘give her some happiness’. She picked her EA to rekindle because he was a couple hours away and “safer” where she wouldn’t be able to physically be with him easily; avoidance of temptation. Little escapes and someone to talk to. 

That’s her “Why” and how her mind was operating.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

LanieB said:


> This would be true in those cases where the WS did actually intend to reconcile (had good intentions, but couldn't resist temptation). However, in my case, my WH never intended to actually R. His intent from the beginning was to make me believe the affair had ended and that he was now being a "good boy", when he was actually only taking it underground. To me, this is the perfect example of a False R. This kind of False R is what I thought this thread was discussing.


That's horrible Lanie. Sorry you got hit by that. I'm actually interested in any case really. I think a deliberate FalseR, where the DS deliberately misleads the BS, never intending to quit the A, is absolutely sickening.

The concept of a 'Failed R' vs. a FalseR is worth thinking about. I'm sure many disloyals don't _intend_ to betray in the first place, but c'mon, after they know that they've gone off the cliff, and know what it does, they _unintentionally_ do it again? Can a 'good' person read _Not... Just Friends_ and still decide to escalate an affair?

To use the alcohol analogy- if a guy is in AA and says 'I'm staying clean' but knows he's not going to, in fact has a date at the bar that night, is that much worse than the weak willed person that still keeps the hip flask and fills it the first time a person offers a drink? They didn't _intend_ to fill it. How about if an alcoholic goes to AA because they like wine coolers too much, then after a bit of AA decide to buy a case of Jack Daniels? 

It's hard if not impossible to know if a DS actually intends to R or not. I certainly have no evidence that my DW tried to do anything other than see her affair timeline through to the end. She seemed remorseful and ashamed for about a month after Dday1- right up until I decided to unpack my bag and move back downstairs. Then, unsurprisingly, her weak attempt at R, if it can be called an attempt at all, crumbled. I think she thought she was 'safe' then. The only thing she missed out on was unfettered access to OM for a semester, two at most since she _knew_ he was moving at some point. She still got her ultimate consummation, intimate nights, torrid sex in the soundbooth, and hanging out with friends at a theatrical show and drinking it up at her toxic student's apt. 

So if there's 'heavy lifting' after Dday2 how is a BS to know if that's just the disloyal following the TAM script, or the _Not... Just Friends_ script, or _Surviving the Affair_ script?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> I spent some time yesterday reading up on a bunch of stuff just about divorce and regret. If only the WS would read it instead of the BS.. Utah actually requires a course giving out info like this before you can actually divorce.


Funny you mention it. I did the Utah class. It was good. I remember looking at my shoes thinking about regret during the course. Wondered if I would have it eventually.

I start thinking that there are regrets, guilt, anger, and all kinds of things in life. It really can be a case of paralysis by analysis.

I think all of it is exactly as you said...only if the WS would read it. But, of course, it is too late for that if it is post affair, post d-day, post R time, etc.

Better luck with marriage number 2? Lol! 

Life is an adventure. I try to enjoy the journey.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

DrMathias said:


> Thanks for the responses all, in particular BackOnTrack. BoT, did you reconcile?


Yes. We hve been in R for over a year and a half. Dday 2 was initiated by me. My wife was having female issues. I knew she was already getting suspicious and thinking that I had given her something. Though I was almost certain that was not the case, the fear and reality of even tha possibility was the last straw for me in continuing the lies. 

I had destroyed her, and in the process given away my integrity. Like many cheaters, I had always looked down on anyone that cheated. My intergrity meant the world to me and I had given it away. I went home and told her the truth. All of it. It sucked. I felt releif to end the lies, but seeing her crushed was just the absolute lowest point of my life. 

After that, we found a great MC and went for over a year. I'm happy to say that I was damn lucky that she able to take me back. Our relationship is now better than it has ever been, but i know it's always on her mind and always will be. I don't know if I'll ever forgive myself (or even if I should) for all of the damage I caused. But, all that I can do from this point forward is be the best husband I can be and I will never give my integrity away again.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

DrMathias said:


> The concept of a 'Failed R' vs. a FalseR is worth thinking about. I'm sure many disloyals don't _intend_ to betray in the first place, but c'mon, after they know that they've gone off the cliff, and know what it does, they _unintentionally_ do it again? Can a 'good' person read _Not... Just Friends_ and still decide to escalate an affair?


It’s worth consideration. “Failed R” is more appropriate to mine. The entire first month after being given the option of divorce or R was spent on broken NC, fake “break ups”, and so forth. The MC was always twisted about our marriage versus her infidelity (which at the time she was denying PA). She just never really went into the whole thing that she had all that much to address as they were just the ramification in her mind for what I was doing wrong in the marriage.

The books, forums, etc. were also always ‘cherry picked’ to point out my behaviors that were bad. Particularly the EA stuff because I have females I talk to about her adultery. Forums she used to paint a picture of emotional abuse I was doing. Friends she used to paint a picture of a stalker. She was the anti-remorseful wayward poster child quite often.

Confusing time for me. Because on the flip side, she was acting like a remorseful wayward who wanted the marriage to work. I couldn’t tell what was what. Was the lashing out just the fog and internal battle? Or is that who she really is and the remorseful side was the act? I don’t know.... 

The clarity moment was when I recognized that by constantly trying to figure her out and guessing, it gave her all the power over me as I was reacting. So I shifted to focusing entirely upon myself and just interpreting whatever output she fed my way without at all trying to give it meaning. Distancing is your friend.

That’s also why most of my advice is centered on myself versus trying to get her to be a certain way or do certain things. It’s about me, finding my own inner strength to just deal with whatever comes my way. It’s about finding that distance to simply evaluate how you are interpreting your own reality.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

LanieB said:


> This would be true in those cases where the WS did actually intend to reconcile (had good intentions, but couldn't resist temptation). However, in my case, my WH never intended to actually R. His intent from the beginning was to make me believe the affair had ended and that he was now being a "good boy", when he was actually only taking it underground. To me, this is the perfect example of a False R. This kind of False R is what I thought this thread was discussing.


I understand and in your case, it would be accurate to describe it as "false". By and large, I think that situations like yours are rare. Where a DS has no intention or interest in recovering the marriage and makes a calculated effort to make you believe otherwise. This sounds like a classic sociopathic/narcissit. A class "A" piece of sh*t. 

I'm sorry.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Racer said:


> It’s worth consideration. “Failed R” is more appropriate to mine. The entire first month after being given the option of divorce or R was spent on broken NC, fake “break ups”, and so forth. The MC was always twisted about our marriage versus her infidelity (which at the time she was denying PA). She just never really went into the whole thing that she had all that much to address as they were just the ramification in her mind for what I was doing wrong in the marriage.
> 
> The books, forums, etc. were also always ‘cherry picked’ to point out my behaviors that were bad. Particularly the EA stuff because I have females I talk to about her adultery. Forums she used to paint a picture of emotional abuse I was doing. Friends she used to paint a picture of a stalker. She was the anti-remorseful wayward poster child quite often.
> 
> ...


Racer, you nailed it! Almost the same happened with me.

Your conclusions are spot on. It seems that the BS club follows a path quit consistantly; the one variable is time.

I also listen to the WS side and see how happy they feel as time gets them back into a comfortable place through R.

It is a strange thing, during the A the BS is portrayed as a weak undeserving spouse, the BS is then treated as a saint through R, and then as the villian when going through D.

All of this without really trying. Who knew we could be so crazy to be so many things? Lol! All most of us wanted is a faithful partner and a great family.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> DS's don't intend to "false "R". They are mostly confused and highly comprimised emotionally. They will crave and the rationalization hampster has been so frequenty used for so long that it is second nature, and extremely strong...
> 
> Much the same with an alcoholic or addict of any kind, there is no such thing "false sober". No one including a DS goes in intending to "fall off the wagon". The intention is always good. Along those lines, I think it's healthier to refer to a "false R" as a "failed R". False sounds fake, I dont think the attempt was ever fake... At some point they felt they were truelly trying.... But, because of the incredible difficulty of it for everyone involved... It failed.
> 
> ...



:iagree:

I was already lurking on TAM 6mo prior to Dday 1. Mainly just trying to figure out which direction to go. I would see threads in other sections of TAM and see so many people struggling with their marriage. Part of me was looking for a way to fix my marriage, while part of me was looking for justification/rationalization for the A. 

I read stuff in this section regarding the fog/addiction aspect. I must say it was an eye opener. What was crazier was being able to acutally realize how this fog affected me while still being in the midst of the A. I would dread going to see OW due to the guilt and fear of beigh caught. Within minutes of being there, the fog swept all of the fear away. Ultimately, becoming aware of the fog gave me the strenght to make the right decisions, but getting past the addiction was the hardest part. As a result, this aiction aspect makes relapse after Dday #1 amost always innevitable for most WS's


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

LanieB said:


> DrMathias & Racer - You've both mentioned books. I've done a lot of reading/research on the internet (this forum and Marriage Builders, plus numerous others), plus I've read Surviving the Affair and I'm currently reading Not Just Friends. From all of this reading, I've decided that most affairs (where the APs have deep "feelings" for each other, are in "love") basically have to end on their own before any kind of R is truly possible.
> 
> ...


I actually see that as the worst situation to R in. If it ended on it’s own with a “bad timing, not meant to be” vibe... It will remain a happy memory. Even in Not Just Friends, the highest risk AP is the ex-lover you broke off with due to timing or whatnot. I’d think you’d end up competing with Plan B and the fantasy of “what if” for the rest of your marriage. That’s how our “failed R” started... She was trying to find “closure” and then used each other to help through this ‘trial’. “How ru doing today?” blah... 

What you want is a WS that cringes at the memories of the past. That is who you R with. In my mind, a good sign was when my WW was recalling, she looked like she was going to puke.

I did break my WW.... after the false R. I influenced whom she saw in the mirror until she could see what I was seeing. I learned from her; Sort of picked up on her natural dialect if you will and turned it on her.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Dr. M,

Here's my take on false R.

It happens most often when the CS does not demonstrate complete remorse (you've been around TAM long enough to know what that means) for the affair and the R suffers or fails because of it.

The CS may or may not still be cheating or still be in the fog. But for whatever reason, the CS does not grasp or care about what complete remorse entails and it's importance to the BS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dr. Mathias, I really feel that you should also be talking to Mrs. Mathias about this issue. It's obvious that you are concerned about it and considering your situation, I don't blame you. But , in order for your reconciliation to be a true one, you BOTH need to communicate your concerns. How can you reconcile if you are constantly thinking that your reconciliation is false? Communication is paramount to regaining trust, so I would suggest that you discuss it with her .


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Racer said:


> What you want is a WS that cringes at the memories of the past. That is who you R with. In my mind, a good sign was when my WW was recalling, she looked like she was going to puke.
> 
> I did break my WW.... after the false R. I influenced whom she saw in the mirror until she could see what I was seeing. I learned from her; Sort of picked up on her natural dialect if you will and turned it on her.


Racer gets my vote for TAM poster of the day! alte Dame usually set the bar high, so nicely done! Lol!

Dr. M...I did the same thing that Racer did. I actually made sport of it at one point. Bad on me. Lol!

I did not have a revenge affair, but I seriously considered it. I just didn't want to be like her, or hurt a third party.

I did tell her prior to leaving by a couple of weeks that I was looking for a new woman. It was a way to let her know how hurtful it was to be rejected by your spouse.

Maybe that is the failure of R. Maybe we get to a point of just not wanting it anymore. We realize we can do better than what they represent to us.

Thanks for a good day of posting!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’ve been giving this some more though Dr.Mathius... I completely understand how much harder it is to move past the fact that even armed with knowledge and promises to R, she made the very conscience choice to escalate the affair. It really does not speak highly of her character at all. 

There really is only one way to ‘fix’ this. Your perception of her has to change. It is seriously complex on how to do this, but she has to change as well as you. Thing is, you can’t ‘make her’ change, she has to want it bad enough for herself. You can however influence perception, and ‘lead’ so she can see a path. 

Seriously, it is so complex and wide a forum is hard... So here’s a glimpse and rambling thoughts.

I’ll start with a firm belief I have: Reality is what you think it is. If you watch yourself, you’ll start seeing how you just make a ton of assumptions about everyone around you. Those assumptions are entirely based on your own personal “operating instructions for life”. So you assume the drivers around you aren’t going to smash into you just because that isn’t what you’d do, and has not been your experience. The true reality is you don’t know... you are just guessing. You do it a lot with your spouse too... and just assume you know what they really think and how they’ll react. Some of it is real, the rest is just filling it in with your perceptions of how things work.

One of my first steps was just wiping out those. It helped me to just make the assumption she wasn’t sane. Laugh all you want  Just think about that for a bit... When you talk to a mentally disabled person, you do not make any assumptions about what is going on in their head about why they are acting like that. You already know their head isn’t firing like yours, so you drop your predictions and anticipation on how they might think. On your end, it is just exploration without judgment. Look for patterns, dynamics, and coping skills that seriously hinder, sabotage and place obstacles that keep them from getting what they want out of life or tend to send them off the road. Learn stuff without making your own assumptions; Just assume whatever they tell you is how they really are... Pick holes in it if you don’t believe it adds up.

So, I identified my wife doesn’t look inward to define her self-worth, she looks to others to validate her... and even more complex is when she looks inward, she looks only at flaws and puts herself down. It was more observation than her words; I saw “big picture”. God is in the details. You actually know quite a lot about her already. Now me, being the evil prick that I am used that knowledge for good and evil. 

To get her to want change, I decimated how she believed others saw her and outed her for what she was..... that heavily influences how she views herself. These guys ‘made her feel that way’, so when she looked in the mirror, she used her own interpretation of how she believed they saw her to define that reflection. I had to break that. She was an adulterous wh0re, a liar, a family wrecker, etc. They saw her as a no-maintenance easy lay. I planted the seeds and let those weeds and doubts grow in her mind. See how it plays right into her own self-loathing and reinforces how she pulls herself down? Kick her into the well.... often rock-bottom is a catyst for change.

In the meantime, I had to up her perception of me. So, as I worked on myself, I shared my thoughts; both rational and irrational. I shattered the fantasy of having to be this “ideal dream husband standard” and just dropped the expectation back down to “human... with flaws and all”. She started understanding how I tick and seeing me as just a guy instead of a failure to live up to some unachievable husbandly standard. She started seeing me as just another fcked up person with his own thoughts and behaviours. Neither good or evil, broken or whole... just a balance of it all like everyone else. 

A big part is “leading”. Since she knew how I saw myself in the mirror, and what I hated myself for... she also heard what I wanted to change. Then I started changing. By doing, I showed her it can change. I shared the methods of that change and she witnessed changes. She started using some of it herself.

As she started changing, and I started changing, my perception of her, the marriage, the adultery, and everything else changed as well.... You just keep plugging away at it.

Btw; to me, forgiveness is the highest level of acceptance. It means it no longer influences how you tick or think. Start off with small levels of acceptance and keep working on more and more of it. I honestly don’t think you’ll ever reach a total forgiveness.... maybe, one day when we’re 90 and looking back it might just be a blip, but that’s probably the best case. Right now, it’s still a series of fresh scars that ache.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Dr. Mathias, I really feel that you should also be talking to Mrs. Mathias about this issue. It's obvious that you are concerned about it and considering your situation, I don't blame you. But , in order for your reconciliation to be a true one, you BOTH need to communicate your concerns. How can you reconcile if you are constantly thinking that your reconciliation is false? Communication is paramount to regaining trust, so I would suggest that you discuss it with her .


MrsM is on TAM almost 24/7, I think she sees my posts before I get a chance to go over them for spelling errors I missed 

I never said the current R is false, or that I particularly fear that. I'm doing almost ZERO monitoring right now. I'm really just wanting to know what is going through the fvcked up brain of a disloyal spouse, such that they can talk about the affair they are/were in, rings, marriage, etc. and STILL take it underground resulting in exponentially more damage. 

I personally can't imagine nailing some woman and forgetting that I was married, or forgetting that my spouse had warned me about being too close, or forgetting I had discussed OWs fantasies with my spouse, and that I had already been caught and watched my spouse crying, yelling, discussing... you name it. I've never been addicted to anything that I know of so I can't relate to that feeling. I also typically think before I do something. If I were to have a RA you can bet I won't slippery into it at this point. 

There's been some good stuff on this thread- thanks guys and gals!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

DrM, I'm rooting for you guys. Seriously. Now, I noticed you said she's on here all the time, and I certainly understand the addictive quality of this website. I also haven't been seeing her post much, so she's apparently lurking mostly. I recently took a break for a couple weeks and it was really helpful to me.

Mrs M, I know you're reading this. Put down the ipad for a couple weeks. Take a step back and just live. It will do you a world of good to stop dwelling on everything for a while. Come back when you need to. Everyone will still be here.


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