# When to Leave a "Good Man"



## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Hello all,
I'm new and realize it's kind of rude to just start off by asking for advice, but I'm desperate so I hope you'll forgive me.

As my username hints I'm a 43 y/o woman, married just over ten years together for 13. We raised my daughter from a previous relationship together though she is grown and gone from home now. 

My DH is a 'good man.' He doesn't drink, doesn't hurt me, he's reliable in terms of sticking to a daily routine & helping with chores. He lost his job 6 months ago after doing some job hopping for a few years before that. He was looking for a change, seemed to be restless, and I think that's when our troubles really started.

Right now he works on contracts he can scrounge up and we both work from home. It's a lot of time to be together and I told him ages ago that alone time is very important to me, so perhaps that is adding to the tension.

At this point there is just no common ground / passion between us and we seem to be heading nowhere - he has ZERO ambition. I ask him what his ideal life would look like, or just an ideal DAY, but he literally has no answer. None at all. I have begged him to understand that I can no longer just do work, eat supper and watch t.v. every single day. I can't do it any more! 
He always says he hears me and feels ashamed that that's all we do but nothing changes. I try and come up with things to do but even though he will be there in physical form he has no joy in anything. It's like lugging around a 200 lb hunk of clay with me.

No sex life whatsoever. I've brought this up in every way possible and nothing changes. Our best days are when he's feeling slightly silly and he'll make up funny songs while we're doing dishes and that sort of thing. That's about as fun as it gets around here and it's been like this for honestly 5 or 6 years. 

I've done everything I can do to bring back his sense of joy, but without any communication / info directly from him it's just blind guessing on my part. I've gotten us out of our labour intensive home (repairs/yard work) and into a condo so that he'd have more free time but that hasn't helped, in fact it just makes me sad not to have a yard, etc. the worst part is that I used to be able to take care of those things but I've got a back injury and it's tough for me to do anything physical. Then he tells me he misses having more space for us outdoors and he'd 'love to give that to me again' but I know he would resent the work so what is the point? 

I try and take care of all the bills, organizing, calling repair people, insurance companies, banks, family stuff so that he doesn't have to think about it. I am on the verge of having to do his taxes for him because I can't even motivate him to do that this year. (because he is self employed now I think it scares him but still it HAS to be done)

I have asked him if he's depressed. I have asked him if he'll talk to someone. All denied. 

This is all over the place I know but I literally don't get ANY privacy anymore so I am rushing. Now that we live in this condo and my own office is in the dining room area I'm kind of always under his eyes. And he never ever ever ever goes out. No friends, no interests, barely will go pick up milk if we need it unless he's feeling super motivated that day.

any thoughts? I'm thinking of going back to school for something that pays a little better than I make and getting a tiny apartment for myself. I just want to be free and not feel like I'm trapped in this go-nowhere depressing world with someone who doesn't even touch me anymore and can't be bothered to even be honest with me.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

You can't force him to change. He will only hangs when he feels the need and he probably doesn't feel the need and he may even be baffled by your words.

What you can do is work on yourself. Go to school, find other activities and develope the kind of life you want to have. This will have the effect of reducing the amount of time you spend with him and may help induce a longing to do things with you again. 

My marriage was in a similar state as yours for many years. The routine was set and mind numbing. I even fell out of love with my wife. I started working on myself first and then I addressed our toxic communication style and it paid off. We used to be couch potatoes and this summer we are going on an 85 mile backpacking trip. This probably would not have happened if I had not just started doing activities separately. Eventually we started doing fun things again and we discovered a common interest in backpacking which we geared up for last summer. 

There is hope but you need to put the oxygen mask on you first.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Buy him a book called Married Man Sex Life. I actually disagree with a fair bit of it and think it often helps only coincidentally, because it encourages men to take action. But I think that message alone will be very good for your husband. Him doing some of the suggestions in this book could really change things for the better for you both.

Don't read it yourself.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Wow, with the exception of you living in a condo, you have perfectly described my last marriage. 

I went onto a forum like this and asked a question like yours, and the feedback I read was basically that he wouldn't change and wasn't doing his share. When I shared the feedback with him, he shrugged and said it was "probably about right." 

My guess is that your husband has found a safe harbor in his life - a marriage that isn't too bad in the sense he doesn't have to do much and it's a safe, comfortable place where he can emotionally shut himself away from risk. 

You say you have tried to bring joy back to him. My ex found that joy when he was stationed overseas and found an impoverished young woman whose entire family thought he was the "rich American" who could change their lives forever. (He used these words when he described why he had the ongoing affair.) 

I suspect your guy will "come alive" again when his current level of performance makes him a hero. Short of that, though, the only thing you can likely do is ask yourself whether you've been critical and judgmental, and if you *can* be ok with things the way they are.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

He can deny it all he wants, but he looks depressed from here. Men who are downsized out of jobs and are scrambling for work often are, especially if they're defining their worth by the money the financial support they give.

I'd start small in the "I'm not your mama" realm...laundry gets done separately, he takes on cooking dinner one night weekly, menus get planned together, and you all cook together one night weekly. It gets him eased back into taking care of himself, you stop doing for him what he can do for himself, and it offers you two something concrete to do together (cook). I'm a big believer in "food is love", and menu planning involves budgeting, so two birds with one stone.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all the thoughtful replies. And quickly, too! that is such a nice thing for me - the give and take of this.  Simple pleasures. lol

Meson, I hear the message of working on myself. I am planning to look into school but it does feel a bit wasteful since I have already completed a degree AND a diploma and my career is a creative one which I love. I could start working out, I guess, but big deal - that's just another chore. The truth is I am into lots of different things and love to dance, to be in nature, to read, to discuss politics, to go to trivia nights, make things, meet people - I'd even go to Church for the social stuff mostly, but it would all be filler. What I REALLY REALLY want is a life partner - someone to move in the same direction with. 

I will look into the book you recommended, MSP, but when someone doesn't want to touch you it's awkward to try and force them. For a couple of years there I was really down on myself thinking I've just gotten old and ugly. A couple of things changed my mind on that, though - not that I'm not older and a little heavier, I am - but I am not unattractive and thankfully sort of feel less badly about myself in that department than I did a year ago.

Kathy - oh, ouch. you're right though, I'm sure he'd be the same as your husband was. I wish I could make him feel like a hero but I am running out of ways to try. there are glimmers - sometimes I can get him motivated and excited about life for a good afternoon but it goes away SO quickly. 

TikiKeen - I agree that he sounds depressed. And I would understand why, too - the job loss was very hard on him particularly because his employer had been semi abusive (to all the employees) for many months before the downsizing, so his self esteem took a huge hit. Although even early on in our relationship my daughter and I used to jokingly say he was Eeyore. And he *is* but it's gotten extreme. ... The best way to make it clear is to tell you quite honestly that for the past year or so I've only heard those cheesy fake laughs come out of him. Never a sincere laugh anymore, and that hurts. You know when people give you those fake laughs or when you're telling a story and you haven't really even gotten to the point yet and the person will say, "Oh yeah" in an inappropriate place so you know they aren't listening? Our conversations are like that unless they are about *****ing about the world. he engages in those quite well.

Thanks all for the opportunity to run through this 'out loud' so to speak. I know that my life is in my hands only and I have a decision to make.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Past40 said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new and realize it's kind of rude to just start off by asking for advice, but I'm desperate so I hope you'll forgive me.


Welcome



Past40 said:


> As my username hints I'm a 43 y/o woman, married just over ten years together for 13. We raised my daughter from a previous relationship together though she is grown and gone from home now.
> 
> My DH is a 'good man.' He doesn't drink, doesn't hurt me, he's reliable in terms of sticking to a daily routine & helping with chores. He lost his job 6 months ago after doing some job hopping for a few years before that. He was looking for a change, seemed to be restless, and I think that's when our troubles really started.


This all sounds great on his end. How about you?



Past40 said:


> Right now he works on contracts he can scrounge up and we both work from home. It's a lot of time to be together and I told him ages ago that alone time is very important to me, so perhaps that is adding to the tension.


SO, you are the one that doesn't want to be with him all the time.....not him.

Why not?

I would love to work with my wife at home, sounds like a dream job.



Past40 said:


> At this point there is just no common ground / passion between us and we seem to be heading nowhere - he has ZERO ambition. I ask him what his ideal life would look like, or just an ideal DAY, but he literally has no answer. None at all. I have begged him to understand that I can no longer just do work, eat supper and watch t.v. every single day. I can't do it any more!


If he doesn't have an answer, that's normal. It's not easy to just figure out your life plan or what one wants to do.

For the 2nd part of above. What have YOU done outside of work/eat/TV every day and have you tried to include him?

I'm assuming you didn't. Cause if you did you would have been doing things you like/love and you wouldn't complain about "too much time with husband".

This is 50% on your and 50% your husband. Same blame.

Plan things, get out there with him and you guys do whatever you desire. Tell him it's important that he does the same.



Past40 said:


> No sex life whatsoever. I've brought this up in every way possible and nothing changes. Our best days are when he's feeling slightly silly and he'll make up funny songs while we're doing dishes and that sort of thing. That's about as fun as it gets around here and it's been like this for honestly 5 or 6 years.


This is a big issue clearly and probably your priority. How in the world can couples allow this to happen is beyond me. Again, 50/50 your fault as well. How can one not want to be intimate with their loved one. Or be in a relationship that has 0 intimacy is beyond me.

Without this being addresses I wouldn't even try to tackle any other issue.

I would also leave in 6 months to a year. Screw that....



Past40 said:


> I've done everything I can do to bring back his sense of joy, but without any communication / info directly from him it's just blind guessing on my part. I've gotten us out of our labour intensive home (repairs/yard work) and into a condo so that he'd have more free time but that hasn't helped, in fact it just makes me sad not to have a yard, etc. the worst part is that I used to be able to take care of those things but I've got a back injury and it's tough for me to do anything physical. Then he tells me he misses having more space for us outdoors and he'd 'love to give that to me again' but I know he would resent the work so what is the point?


You guys made a mistake here. Having a house/land IS work, but if you do it together it brings you to closer together.....and I enjoy it, it give me certain level of self accomplishment.



Past40 said:


> I try and take care of all the bills, organizing, calling repair people, insurance companies, banks, family stuff so that he doesn't have to think about it. I am on the verge of having to do his taxes for him because I can't even motivate him to do that this year. (because he is self employed now I think it scares him but still it HAS to be done)


You shouldn't. He should do half of this stuff.....and fixing things himself not "calling repair people.

Don't do it/enable him to be lazy.



Past40 said:


> I have asked him if he's depressed. I have asked him if he'll talk to someone. All denied.
> 
> This is all over the place I know but I literally don't get ANY privacy anymore so I am rushing. Now that we live in this condo and my own office is in the dining room area I'm kind of always under his eyes. And he never ever ever ever goes out. No friends, no interests, barely will go pick up milk if we need it unless he's feeling super motivated that day.
> 
> any thoughts? I'm thinking of going back to school for something that pays a little better than I make and getting a tiny apartment for myself. I just want to be free and not feel like I'm trapped in this go-nowhere depressing world with someone who doesn't even touch me anymore and can't be bothered to even be honest with me.


How about you touch him, wipp it out and do what you want. Take control and lead on Intimacy end.

Take this issue on yourself and cover your 50%. Get EXACTLY what you desire/looking for.

Assuming above even works, in 2-3 months see if he starts doing his 50% on sex end. If he doesn't tell him that it's important that he does, cause if no you will leave him (assuming this is important to you, seems like it is).

If this gets resolved, tackle other problems above. Schedule date night, picnic, hike, bikes.....sports.......better yet camping.

Drag his ass out there if you have to by his hair. 

You are in the war of your life with this marriage, fight for yourself and him.

There might come a time when he might have to do it for you. 

Good luck


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

It is possible that your husband could be experiencing some depression if he is seeking employment and is not able to find it. Is he the type that would be happy sitting at home, not supporting his family and living off welfare? There are those types too and honestly I think they even have trouble with depression. I think men do get a sense of self worth from their work and being able to support their family.

Other than that what I read from your post seems kind of typical of marriage, possibly others will disagree. I have been married 22 years and have friends who have been married 27 and everything you describe is much like all of my friends' marriages as well as mine. Passion is gone, the women are the ones trying to suggest things to do together and then men just want to sit in front of the computer.

Do you have children?

I have finally come to a point that I do alot by myself, with friends, with my daughters and I just let husband do his own thing. I thought for many years we were lacking intimacy which we are but I blamed it on husband. We went to counseling and counselor was pushing the physical part of it. I found I was the one that had the block. I need time together, I need conversation, I need to know the man I am with is interested in me, I need connection that is not physical in order for there to be any physical and this is where my husband is not capable. You mentioned it is like packing around 200 lbs of clay as a reference to your husband.....I have said living with my husband is like living with a brick.....he has no emotions.

I have read books about the emotionally unavailable man and have learned that this happens in childhood where they learn that emotions and connections are not safe. But it also cannot be changed. 

So I am in the same boat as yourself. In my case this is my second marriage and we have one bio child together. Husband raised my 2 daughters from my first marriage. Sometimes I question how long I will stay as I do feel so alone. Leaving though means saying good-bye to my family and it means my daughter will have to try to accept the divorce and try to accept us moving on with our lives. I have been down this road before and it is not easy. So far now I still have my family, I get along with my daughters, my oldest 2 accept their stepdad well and call him dad. I just do my own thing. Sure I have thoughts of being swept off my feet by someone who is interested in me but then I realize this guy could be a player and I am not willing to tear up my family will be hurt by a player who will eventually be moving on to someone else and leaving me hurt.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Past40 said:


> I will look into the book you recommended, MSP, but when someone doesn't want to touch you it's awkward to try and force them.


You won't be forcing him. What he needs is the right balance of emotional support and a kick up the rear. The book will be good for the latter and the former will come from you.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay.

Let me see if I can break this down.

1) Been together for 13, married for 10.

2) he lost his job...but he is holding up his share of chores and is working to keep money coming into the house.

3) You resent him being around all the time.

4) You resent that he doesn't have 'Grand Ambitions'. (How is that cure for cancer of yours coming?)

5) You resent that he seems content to 'work, eat meals with you, and share your company with the T.V.

6) You resent not having sex (well...I'd resent that too. Point taken)

7) YOU changed the housing situation...and he doesn't seem to like it.

8) YOU changed the chore dynamic to 'give him more time', i.e. by taking on more chores, you need to interact with him less and it gives you a moral bump.

9) Your daughter by another man, whom he helped raise, left and you no longer need a male caretaker/role model for her. 

10) Coincidently, you are looking around and thinking of cutting loose. Do you realize how badly the optics are when you read these two points close together?

I am sure he has his pallet full of issues and he could be experiencing depression.

But from the read I am taking, YOU are seeking to change the deal, not him.

Which is fine. I am not sure what you envision the future looks like. Do you want him to start running marathons? Maybe you think of some other man is out there breathlessly waiting to make your life fascinating for you.

You want more than this...though 'this' seemed to be plenty good when daughter was home.

How much have things changed in the last couple of years? Has he always been 'joyless'? Is this something recent?

Has he given up on the job search? How much is he contributing financially compared to you?


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

*the beta provider is no longer required, I resent & hate him now*



JCD said:


> Okay.
> 
> Let me see if I can break this down.
> 
> ...


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

What brought you together at the start? Do you find him attractive? Is the foundation solid? Was there passion at the beginning of the relationship? What positive things can you think of?

I suppose he can feel your boredom and resentment, which just creates a vicious circle of negativity. It does sound like he is depressed. And he must know that you want to get away and be alone. So the more he feels brought down, the less attractive he feels, and the worse it gets....


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Look...my post was a bit harsh, but looking at it from a guys perspective, it looks pretty...manipulative.

He is no fun anymore. You don't need him anymore. You are earning more...now you want to scram.


This is a very SLANTED POV and I know there is more to the story. .And I get it. You are just past forty and you are asking 'now what'? Sort of a female midlife crisis. I think he is not meeting your emotional needs even as he is struggling with meeting your physical needs.

Now, you say you've tried to pique his interest with any number of diversions. Are they 'your' diversions or are they 'his' diversions? SOMETHING gets him going. A television program. A sport. Something he has around his house in great quantities? Getting HIM out of whatever dark place he is in may very well get YOU what you need from him.

And hubby seems to be playing the 'fine' game. We all have seen it. Hubby asks a wife what is wrong and she says 'fine' in such glacial, pointed, hostile tones that men want to commit suicide (or uxoricide for the clearer thinking). 

Men don't talk. They hate it. So I think you need to step up the program a bit more on the 'help mate' thing. I know you think you've tried everything, but you haven't scratched the surface.

Try to get him drunk. Some people talk when they drink. 

He may not have any friends, but get some guys he knows to kidnap him and drag him off to something different.

YOU drag him off to someplace different. Don't take 'meh' for an answer! No phones, no T.V., a cooler of beer, wine and mixers and who knows what may churn out?

My wife and I started watching long television series together. It gave us something to laugh at, be horrified at, and to converse about. Opening up that channel of communication. "What would you do if YOU were Walter White in that situation?" It worked for us.

Move to another fixer upper.

Six months is a bit short to suddenly throw up your hands and quit. If you were in a hospital bed because you were partially and temporarily paralyzed, how long would you want HIM to wait around?

Drag him to a therapist because depressed people can't find the way themselves.

Good luck. If he resists ALL attempts to change, well, at least you tried harder.

And you might find that quote unquote good men are in a lot shorter supply at your demographic then you think. Maybe you need to find a way around his flaws cause he isn't terrible...just a bit boring.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like the marriage has run its course, OP. 

Accepting that and moving on may be the most peaceful option.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

It almost sounds like OP is looking for reasons to end this thing......but I could be wrong.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> It sounds like the marriage has run its course, OP.
> 
> Accepting that and moving on may be the most peaceful option.


I don't see this as unfixable. But.....from reading it I think she's done with the relationship so its moot.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Sounds like you're a renter OP.

You're in it for as long as it is giving YOU joy

Your post says less about your desire to return joy to your husband as it says about you not having joy.

It sounds like you have become complacent... all of the things you are DOING sound rather one-sided (to ease your anxieties, not your husband's). 

When did you stop actively loving your husband? THAT is what is missing. 

It sounds like your marital stock is at a low...but instead of riding it our and reinvesting in it, you'd rather sell.

I suggest you read some books by Dr. Harley:

Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders
His Needs, Her Needs

Work on yourself...because you can only change you...


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Past40 said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new and realize it's kind of rude to just start off by asking for advice, but I'm desperate so I hope you'll forgive me.
> 
> As my username hints I'm a 43 y/o woman, married just over ten years together for 13. We raised my daughter from a previous relationship together though she is grown and gone from home now.
> ...


OP pretty much you can summarize your whole post as: "I do no love my husband anymore and his presence annoys me".

This is the ultimate reality and you have fallen out of love with your husband. Time to have a heart to heart talk about your future. Make your needs and expectations clear to your husband and give him a choice. Be sincere, respectful but be direct and to the point of your desires. Use precise language and do not beat around the bush or compromise on some things you will resent later.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

DoF said:


> It almost sounds like OP is looking for reasons to end this thing......but I could be wrong.


She is allowed to feel the way she wants.

But optically, it's on the same moral plane as 'the man didn't find his wife exciting anymore, so he dumped her and picked up a trophy wife.'

Except she hasn't picked up someone else. She just knows she doesn't want him, which is a bit more honest.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

He sounds clinically depressed. The job loss may have triggered it. Only a doctor can dx.

You can't "fix" him but you can support him. Keep encouraging him to see a doctor. Until he seeks outside help, I don't think things will change.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Send him to athol Kay's forum and have him read mmslp /map /nmmng


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Oh & stop asking him if he's depressed. Most men won't admit it and/or don't know the symptoms. Until he sees a doctor for a proper dx, think of him as a sick person who needs help not a wife who is about to bail.

Oh & I get it. I have lived with a depressed spouse & have suffered depression myself. It's no walk in the park for both parties.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Oh & stop asking him if he's depressed. Most men won't admit it and/or don't know the symptoms. Until he sees a doctor for a proper dx, think of him as a sick person who needs help not a wife who is about to bail.
> 
> Oh & I get it. I have lived with a depressed spouse & have suffered depression myself. It's no walk in the park for both parties.


This is very helpful. People don't understand depression.

OP, I would suggest that you wait until he gets treated before you walk away. Otherwise you are leaving a cripple behind.

Not to guilt you into staying. If you are done, you are done. But at least try to get him to stand on his own two feet. If not for him, just so you can face mirrors in the future.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

DoF said:


> You are in the war of your life with this marriage, fight for yourself and him.
> 
> There might come a time when he might have to do it for you.
> 
> Good luck


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## TryingTilda (Apr 21, 2014)

I would go about it systematically. Make a list of your needs and issues and get in his face. Shake it up; expect to struggle through it. He may or may not wake up and do something. If you just sit back and take it he will not do anything! If you are thinking he should just change if he loves you, I think that is wrong.
I've been through this myself.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

lots to read and think about here - I want to respond. Trying to find a a good 45 minute/1hour chunk of time without eyeballs on my screen is going to be tough but I'd really like to and intend to try..

In the meantime thank you everyone.


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## onedge (Nov 27, 2013)

My husband is similar as in not much drive, low labido, couch potato, gained alot of weight which really bothered him, and sort of depressed. This has gone on for years. He suffers from low testosterone and we are now working on that to see if it helps. Stress from losing his job and age and lack of exercise/proper diet can really cause these levels to take a dive. Have him see a doctor for testing and see if changing his lifestyle can increase him to optimal levels for him. Changing lifestyle won't be easy at first due to lack of drive but making small changes in the beginning could be motivating. If testing rules out hormonal issues and he doesn't want to see a therapist then check into an antidepressant RX from doctor. Something is better than nothing.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

I am going to tackle all the responses as best I can. 

Overall there seemed to be a theme early on that perhaps I'm a lazy golddigger who found a guy when I was a single mom and now that he's lost his job I want out. 

Not the case at all.

When I met him I was a single mom, yes, but I made good money, owned my own home, car, did all my yard work & house work & paid all my bills and was able to save money for an investment property, too. I also was involved with community theatre, I was finishing my degree and was very handy, improving my home in my spare time. 

I was a catch and he tells me that all the time. I also had plenty of suitors (embarrassingly to the point that my neighbour confessed that early on he thought I was an escort, lmao)

Also, if I were to leave him, I'd be financially stressed very badly - this is not something I take lightly nor would it be easy for me. It's not about money, it's about the future, about my actual physical needs for sex, joy, and privacy.

Anyway...

the other theme in the responses is that my poor husband needs help, that maybe I've not given it to him and that maybe I've been a mouse who has kept quiet and not tried anything to improve the situation. 

Not true.

I've suggested medical help but he doesn't think it's necessary.

i have dragged him to dance classes (salsa, which he enjoyed and so did I but there's only so many we can go to), I've bought him music production software because he loves bass guitars, I've gone on vacations (I hate traveling personally - so much effing waiting, paperwork, pain for my back and it's all kind of useless to me since all he wants to do is literally SEE things which we could look at online for all the joy/excitement he gets out of it) and of course it's super expensive as is his bass guitar habit.

I've also been the one to arrange all social interaction and as I stated earlier he doesn't enjoy it. he stopped drinking altogether and I believe he totally resents it when I get a shine on. If I'm really up and happy it seems to make him angry. No kidding. So, if I want a beer or a glass of wine I feel guilty right off the bat AND I have to hide that it's making me happy and hyper. Not a good thing at all, especially considering that he's on my back all the time. if I stay up late he asks what time I came to bed - that sort of thing. 

I've also given up my dream of rural living. I tried for a while to get my big garden and I'd love to have a couple of chickens and the peace/quiet that comes from a rural life. But at first he told me that he didn't want to drive that far for work and now that he works from home we have the problem of not getting good enough internet service in rural communities here.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing, isn't' it? The responses here tell me it is since on the one hand there is a lot of "what have YOU done?" and on the other hand when I do take the initiative there is a lot of "YOU decided to..." so where's the balance? Let me assure everyone that I've considered his feelings/wants/needs in absolutely every move I've made. I've done more in the direction of what I think he wants than in the direction of what I want. 

And I know - that's a crime. The fact that he cannot summon a decent laugh is going to be pinned on me not doing enough for MYSELF now.  damned if I do - damned if I don't. 

I am a capable, enthusiastic, ambitious, intelligent, attractive, persuasive, charismatic, loving, generous, funny person. I have been through the ****, believe me. I struggled out of abject poverty all on my own before I met my husband. When he started to become the Eeyore that he is I stuck with him. It has been 5/6 years and I can't do it anymore. He even said the other day that he is thankful I've hung in there for so many years with him not having any joy. I kind of wonder if he's read this post because of the words he used. I do suspect that he reads me emails to my one good girlfriend because sometimes I'll say something to her that comes out of him the next day and I have to wonder where he got it from. Feeling THIS watched is not good for me. Not at all - I feel kind of like a prisoner.

Yes, I could ignore all of this and just turn in to one of those women who go out and get mannis and pedis and lunches with the ladies all by myself. I could give robotic blowjobs. I could stop drinking so that he wouldn't look at me funny and I wouldn't feel guilty about it. I could stop wanting to be creative and make a better life for us. I could do that. But that sounds like a nightmare situation to me. I'm sure it'd make him happy though - well, except for the fact that he'd probably want me to tell him all about the manni/pedi experience thereby negating my privacy. or maybe he'd insist on driving me there and waiting around the mall for me to be finished. I kid you not, this is where we're at.

It might sound stupid to some people who are happy to work, eat dinner, watch TV and go to bed, but to me it's not enough. It's just not. I've tried everything. And I haven't even gotten in to how very, very important it is to my work that I have uninterrupted time. I'm an artist and need to just be in the flow. Having someone interrupt 20 times a day or ask what I'm doing just does not work for me. I personally think it is unbelievably selfish of HIM to have started working from home the WEEK AFTER MY DAUGHTER left for college. I had though, "Oh finally I'll have some TRUE alone time." But no. 

Nor have I gotten in to the fact that he has sleep problems which wake me 3-4 times a night most nights. I do ask him to sleep elsewhere but it gets tiring after a while and I feel like a nagging witch. 

After listing all of this I do wonder what I'm even getting out of my relationship anymore. Bad sleep, bad workdays, no fun, no sex, money spent on travel that I don't want and no ambition to change. the same conversation over and over. No friends, no future. Does this sound like a good place to be to anyone else?

Have I REALLY got anything I can do to improve it when he denies all problems and keeps going through the same motions without end?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

OP, don't lump us all into ONE.

Also, if you have specific concerns, address them with the person that posted (quote it> reply).

It makes it difficult to help you when you just generalize and ESPECIALLY as you get very defensive.

Getting help on this board is no different than a relationship. It's a 50/50 deal. People have asked questions, you haven't answered/replied to them.

Now you are just painting more pretty pictures to make yourself perfect.....and we all know you are not and we also accept that you are as responsible for what you are dealing with as your husband.

After all, you accepted and allowed this marriage to go on. 

Sure, now it's at a point where you can no longer take it.......what I'm trying to tell you (and few others as well) is that you have to deal with these issues as they come......not YEARS after they come and become bigger issues.

For example:
No sex for 4-5 years? That can't POSSIBLY be just his fault. Why did you go on and not address this issue? 

You have to figure out what is wrong with you and deal with it, LONG before you can address and deal with your relationship issues. 

Another example is your thread title. "When to leave a good man". Based on what you told us, although he might be a nice guy in general, he is NOT a good man at all. No good man ignores his wife sexual desires...amongst other things you brought up.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

DoF
I've tried to explain that I have almost no time to myself - I would love to do the thing where I respond to each person individually but it's not that easy. 

What questions have I missed? 

I am sorry if I seem defensive, today is not a great day emotionally for me.

Also, please understand that I have addressed the no sex issue ever since the problem started - just because I'm only posting about it after 4/5 years doesn't mean I haven't done anything in the meantime. Aside from talking about it, making moves, getting dressed up, setting the scene, asking about ..

see here he comes now. have to go


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Past 40...

All I read in your response to the advice/questions was defensiveness and additional items to add to your list of reasons why your husband is the problem (you even chose to add his snoring to your list of gripes....jeez)...

YOU are the one responsible to return yourself to joy. Yet YOU are the one who wants to be identified as this martyr/victim...

I don't think you can have both...

Your husband is not making you feel like a prisoner...you are. You have free will to choose to how you want to frame things. 

I have a difficult time believing half of what is posted, when it is presented in such a one-sided fashion. 

If you really are here to rebuild your marriage, I would suggest picking your battles. What are your top emotional needs that aren't being met? I would suggest you and he work on just those. If you present your husband with this laundry list of gripes, I wouldn't blame him for being overwhelmed.

If he truly is unwilling to work on your marriage, then you have your answer to move toward divorce.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Some people thrive on being up each others' a$$es 24/7. Others need time apart. When one person requires a spouse to provide all entertainment, there is an imbalance. 

Your husband seriously needs to get a life and stop expecting you to provide him with one (wanting to hear about a mani/pedi is desperate!).


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

JCD said:


> Six months is a bit short to suddenly throw up your hands and quit. If you were in a hospital bed because you were partially and temporarily paralyzed, how long would you want HIM to wait around?
> 
> Drag him to a therapist because depressed people can't find the way themselves.
> 
> Good luck. If he resists ALL attempts to change, well, at least you tried harder.


I agree you may need to help him get help. Don't ask him if he's okay, ask if you can make an appointment for him to get everything checked.



Emerald said:


> He sounds clinically depressed. The job loss may have triggered it. Only a doctor can dx.
> 
> You can't "fix" him but you can support him. Keep encouraging him to see a doctor. Until he seeks outside help, I don't think things will change.





Emerald said:


> Oh & stop asking him if he's depressed. Most men won't admit it and/or don't know the symptoms. Until he sees a doctor for a proper dx, think of him as a sick person who needs help not a wife who is about to bail.
> 
> Oh & I get it. I have lived with a depressed spouse & have suffered depression myself. It's no walk in the park for both parties.


I agree he sounds depressed. I also agree with another poster that he could be low T, especially after hearing he doesn't sleep at night.

My advice, if he will let you, get an appointment for him. Preferably with a doc who knows all about healthy hormone levels. Consider him "sick" and take care of him. If he refuses help for his sickness that changes the game.

There is also a chance you are going thru perimenopause, which can be extra hard if both of you are not at the top of your game. There are a lot of women having troubles with perimenopause as young as mid 30s nowdays.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Trying Tilda, onedge, the2ofus, blondilocks, and others who are giving me encouragement to help him seek help.. thank you.

I think seeing depression mentioned in the responses this many times is helping me to realize that I need to be more pushy about him needing medical testing / medication / therapy.

We just had a talk, actually - mostly he talked about how he has nothing to offer me, he has no idea what he wants, he can't make me happy, he's got no confidence, etc. I know that part of it is that I've been really impatient for the past while and I've been nagging about little things (I've given up on the big things, I guess and so now I've become this horrible nit-picker) 

But don't let that give you all the wrong impression - I also try so hard to encourage him and to be his cheering section and let him know how many things he does right. I tell him we're lucky to have found each other and that I know he will succeed in his work & I remind him of all the relationships he has built in his field. I think he is funny (when he relaxes for five minutes) and handsome and thoughful and gracious and strong. I tell him so.

In the talk he and I just had I suggested that perhaps he should see a doc. He again said things along the line of "I'm not depressed! I'm just useless!" which breaks my heart. It does. He's always been reserved & on the unenthusiastic side but since his last job he's just been in the total dumps. 
Some of the problems in our marriage pre-date the bad job and subsequent job loss but much of it has happened since or at least gotten much worse. I'm going to try again to get him in to see a doctor but our doctor is TERRIBLE and impatient and a bit of a mean man, to be honest. We're applying for a new one but that might take time.

In the mean time my top emotional needs are: 
-- alone time for allowing myself to be ugly/tired/silent/private for a while each day so that I can be my best self around him and
-- to feel like I turn him on, at least a little. 

I will not be the wife who runs away, but he's telling me he is tired of having this same discussion and I am too. We are nearing the end of the line, I think. I don't want to end it, but I do want him to try something new. I have tried all I can, I really have.

Question: Low T? is it a simple matter of asking the doc for a test? Here in Canada we have to be tricky about these things - most docs will NOT respond well to patients who 'think they know what they need.' - What should he tell the doctor that might trigger the doc to order the test on his own?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

You could see if these guys ship to Canada Hormone Test Kits- Blood
It is a test you order they ship you the stuff you do it and mail it in. It would guve you an idea if it was worth pressing with docs. Also there are things that can be done to help raise levels naturally, it works for many people but not all.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This thread is one more reminder to me why I never want to get married again. A man needs to be emotionally independent from his wife or GF, or be lost like this poor guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Past40 said:


> Question: Low T? is it a simple matter of asking the doc for a test? Here in Canada we have to be tricky about these things - most docs will NOT respond well to patients who 'think they know what they need.' - What should he tell the doctor that might trigger the doc to order the test on his own?


I am also in Canada and have not had any issues with going to my Dr to say what I think is wrong and ask them to test. Can you see another Dr, even if just for this issue? Even just a walk-in place can run tests. 
I have noticed Low-T posters around the pharmacies and clinics by me lately (that tell you to talk to your Dr if you experience any of the symptoms) so I think it's becoming more of a known and talked about issue, that should make it easier.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Low T therapy helps a lot in terms of giving you a much needed boost in energy and libido. It also improves your mood. 

But low T does not fix a destroyed self esteem like this guy has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## captainstormy (Jun 15, 2012)

Your husband is likely depressed from loosing his job. 

I was laid off once through no fault of my own, the company just didn't have the work to go around and laid off a bunch of people. Luckily for me, I found another job very quickly but between them all I wanted to do was sleep, eat, or veg out in front of the TV or computer.

If you asked me if I was depressed at the time, I would have said no. I didn't really feel bad per say, just didn't feel like doing anything, like there was no point. That could also explain why your husband has no ambition.

Honestly, I'm glad I had my resume out places before I got laid off. If I didn't, it might have been two weeks before I even tried to start finding a job when I was depressed. As it was, I was only laid off for a couple of days before I got a new job, and once they said "your Hired" everything was better all of a sudden and then I realized that I was depressed previously.

FWIW, I do also agree with the points earlier by JCD that you have a lot to do with this as well.

ETA:
Alot of guys put a lot of their worth into their jobs. I was recently passed over by a promotion. Which is bad enough, but the person that got it is someone that I trained, they don't know anything about the job that I didn't teach them. They are just are better buddies with the higher ups (which is how they got the job they needed so much training for in the first place).

I kind of sunk back into some depression about that, but my wife was really loving and supportive about it and pretty soon I felt much much better.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

The males who are commenting are very, very defensive people and I have to tell you that although some of your observations were helpful, most of what the group of you has had to say is obviously coming from assumptions you are making about my situation based on your own personal experiences. 

thanks but no thanks, in other words. Alluding to me having a lot to do with this but not expounding on it other than to say that I am probably lying or not telling the whole truth or assuming that I have been hard on him for losing his job/income - well those are not helpful whatsoever because they assume incorrectly. Why oh why would I fight for my marriage privately for years and then finally ask strangers for advice only to lie to them or hide the facts?

I have been immensely encouraging with my husband about his job loss. I really don't feel like I need to go in to detail about it. I have been helpful, thoughtful, kind, encouraging - I have tried to lighten moods, done his favorite things, given pep talks, looked for alternatives, suggested going back to school, suggested moving to another town - even suggested living apart but remaining a couple if he thought that would help him.

You all might have had awful, predatory, ucaring wives in the past but that's not who I am. I am a woman who has given her all to a man who has checked out. That's the truth. If you choose not to believe me that's your problem & has nothing to do with reality.

He seems to be feeling better since our talk a couple of days ago. He's looking into the low T thing and also into supplements, etc. We have no definite plan for a course of action if that step doesn't work, however I'm really heartened by the fact that he WANTS it to work. That's something, anyway. His smile is returned, at least for now. 

It's so nice to see it.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Based on what we know, I think the OP has a lot of valid points. It sounds like the OP has tried to voice her concerns to her husband numerous times. He seems to be answering that everything is fine as is. No sex has to be a killer to her self esteem - especially if she had a good one prior to it based on the guys interested in her when she was single. No one wants to be married to a slug that doesn't want to do anything. If this was a woman that was acting like this and the OP was a guy, people would be telling "him" to dump her and trade her in for a younger, hotter model. To me it looks like people are opining based on their sex and not on the issue itself.

Assuming that the OP has been communicating to her husband about her concerns about the marriage, then at some point an internal timer has been started. Is the OP's H suffering from depression or low T? It sounds like one or the other. If she has been trying to get him to the doctor to get treated, and he refuses, isn't this similar to being married to an alcoholic or drug user who refuses to get help? If the OP has communicated, begged, pleaded and cajoled her husband to get help - and he refuses to - then at some point she needs to call it quits if he won't hold up his end of the deal in the marriage. 

OP, you did do everything in your power to communicate to your husband the severity of the situation, haven't you? If not, DO SO before you call it quits. Unfortunately, it's human nature to not deal with an issue unless forced to do so. Your husband may not be feeling the pressure nor understand how close you are to leaving.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Past40 said:


> The males who are commenting are very, very defensive people and I have to tell you that although some of your observations were helpful, most of what the group of you has had to say is obviously coming from assumptions you are making about my situation based on your own personal experiences.
> 
> thanks but no thanks, in other words. Alluding to me having a lot to do with this but not expounding on it other than to say that I am probably lying or not telling the whole truth or assuming that I have been hard on him for losing his job/income - well those are not helpful whatsoever because they assume incorrectly. Why oh why would I fight for my marriage privately for years and then finally ask strangers for advice only to lie to them or hide the facts?
> 
> ...


Fact that you are getting very defensive AND offensive at the same time is NOT a good sign and doesn't go far to support your own agenda in this last post.

You are also being rather hostile towards males here.......that's not cool. Our gender is irrelevant and frankly I don't appreciate your hostility towards people that are trying to help you.

I doubt that you are perfect....no one is. 

There is NOTHING worse than a person that can't look at themselves int he mirror and accept their own faults/mistakes.

Rather than swing your bat at us, how about you point out to people why they are wrong and explain yourself. That will enable us to help you more.

Of course we don't know EVERYTHING. That's common sense.

But I guarantee you if your husband was to come into this thread, he would have a very different opinion/perspective on all of this than you.

Take me up on it and send him a link to this thread!!!!

Having both people here will enable us to help you better because we all know that 1 person can sway things towards their own agenda (we have LOTS of evidence of that).


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Low T therapy helps a lot in terms of giving you a much needed boost in energy and libido. It also improves your mood.
> 
> But low T does not fix a destroyed self esteem like this guy has.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Confidence and healthy T levels go hand in hand. Doesn't mean they won't have any problems but the feeling of being able to tackle them definitely goes up as T goes up. There is a fair amount of research on it.



Past40 said:


> He seems to be feeling better since our talk a couple of days ago. He's looking into the low T thing and also into supplements, etc. We have no definite plan for a course of action if that step doesn't work, however I'm really heartened by the fact that he WANTS it to work. That's something, anyway. His smile is returned, at least for now.
> 
> It's so nice to see it.


On the art of manliness, they have a testosterone week. The guy has his levels checked then works on them doubling them in 90 days. He lays out what he did with links to research for why he did some of the different things. There is a list of symptoms, list of benefits of raising T, what healthy levels are, the whole works. Excellent resource if he wants to tackle it himself.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

the2ofus said:


> On the art of manliness, they have a testosterone week. The guy has his levels checked then works on them doubling them in 90 days. He lays out what he did with links to research for why he did some of the different things. There is a list of symptoms, list of benefits of raising T, what healthy levels are, the whole works. Excellent resource if he wants to tackle it himself.


You know what I think about testosterone? It's bunch of BS

Some new marketing gimmick to sell us more crap. How do I know this? Well because it's all over TV nowadays and it seems like they are pushing this crap down everyone's throat.

Can it help and does it help? Sure

But I already realize that there has been MILLIONS and MILLIONS of men out there through the human kind history that did just fine without it.

It doesn't matter what life throws at you, what matter is how you deal with it.

"easy button" of popping pills and leveling your "testosterone" doesn't address the underlying issue of a man. That is something only HE can deal with and address WITH HIS ACTIONS!

Sorry


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS - thank you so much. In answer to the question in your last paragraph, Well, if I hadn't before I sure have now. I believe that I already had, mind you - there was a time about a year ago that I went for a job interview and on several viewings of apartments. He must have known that I was serious but we agreed in the end to work on it - still, things keep getting dug back into the same hole and very quickly. the only variable seems to be how long it takes me to tire of it again.


DoF -- You are a stranger and one who clearly likes to argue in ways that I'm way past and have grown out of. From my POV, being asked to live up to a random individual's standard of proof before they will deign to 'give me their help' is not on. I am being honest and I will accept the advice of the people who are giving it to me based on what I am presenting. You obviously have nothing to add that is helpful to me until you feel you have somehow cracked the code that you feel I'm speaking in and thereby uncovered my (non-existent) dirty little secret. No offense meant, but since you are hostile towards me you should feel free to take off.

---

Obviously I know that this process is inherently one-sided - it'd be nice if my husband would join in in the spirit of couple's therapy but A. that's not going to happen and B. it'd be the same thing as if he and I were talking privately, which to date hasn't amounted to any real change. He's very uncommunicative anyway, which is why I'm here in the first place.

Plan 9 from OS said one of the things I came back here to say, which is to respond to the idea that marriage has ruined my husband's self esteem and that it seemingly does so to all men. What a crock. My self esteem is well and truly battered from this, too. And that's why I'm asking for help. Me asking for help is more than my husband is doing, so, I'll leave it up to the group to determine which one of us has really given up on our marriage.


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## captainstormy (Jun 15, 2012)

Past40 said:


> thanks but no thanks, in other words. Alluding to me having a lot to do with this but not expounding on it other than to say that I am probably lying or not telling the whole truth or assuming that I have been hard on him for losing his job/income - well those are not helpful whatsoever because they assume incorrectly.


I can't speak for others, but I never meant to imply you were lying or anything like that.

You want examples, fair enough. I'll walk you through my point of view.

I have no doubt in my mind that your husband is depressed from his job loss. It's a very common thing to happen to guys when they have serious problems at work. Even though he is picking up contract work and able to bring in some money, it's still not a real job, and isn't fixing the problem causing his depression.

Right now he is in a dark place in his mind, he doesn't want to do anything. Sounds like he is barely functioning and your doing the vast majority of the day to day stuff around the house.

What you nagging him, and yes that's what it is about wanting to go out and do more things isn't going to help him. Nor is bugging him about things that are in his mind impossible right now (the ideal life/day). To make it worse, when he does try to go out and make you happy, you still aren't happy because he isn't enjoying it. So when he does try, it does no good.

I can totally understand being frustrated about the no sex thing, believe me I can. As odd as it seems though, for a lot of guys. If they aren't happy, it just can't happen.

Now, all that said. I think you're a good wife who's trying and just isn't sure what to do.

Focus on trying to help your husband with depression and I bet that would make things a whole lot better overall.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think think her idea of "being supportive" has an opposite effect on him and only drives him further away/into more trouble.

Right now, it sounds like he is telling her all the right things to make her happy/get her off her back. But in reality, deep inside the situation is probably quite the opposite.

:scratchhead:


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Past40 said:


> DoF -- You are a stranger and one who clearly likes to argue in ways that I'm way past and have grown out of. From my POV, being asked to live up to a random individual's standard of proof before they will deign to 'give me their help' is not on. I am being honest and I will accept the advice of the people who are giving it to me based on what I am presenting. You obviously have nothing to add that is helpful to me until you feel you have somehow cracked the code that you feel I'm speaking in and thereby uncovered my (non-existent) dirty little secret. No offense meant, but since you are hostile towards me you should feel free to take off.
> .


Rather than make a statement, why not point it out?

You are being passive aggressive......you only want to hear things/take advice you want to hear.

No man wants to be intimate with their dictator/person that tells them what to do and how to do it. 

Chances are HIGH that what you are seeing from him now is all an act......to get you off his back, he will say whatever you want to hear.

You will resolve nothing, but good luck I guess.

Also, if you were "perfect" as you make it seem, you would've addressed your "no sex" issue MANY years ago, with action......but you simply ignored it and now decide to bring it up when it's convenient?

I will take you up on it. Your biggest issue is no intimacy. Do tell me how you are innocent by staying in a relationship with no intimacy/sex for 5-6 years?



Past40 said:


> No sex life whatsoever. I've brought this up in every way possible and nothing changes. Our best days are when he's feeling slightly silly and he'll make up funny songs while we're doing dishes and that sort of thing. That's about as fun as it gets around here and it's been like this for honestly 5 or 6 years.





DoF said:


> This is a big issue clearly and probably your priority. How in the world can couples allow this to happen is beyond me. Again, 50/50 your fault as well. How can one not want to be intimate with their loved one. Or be in a relationship that has 0 intimacy is beyond me.
> 
> Without this being addresses I wouldn't even try to tackle any other issue.
> 
> I would also leave in 6 months to a year. Screw that....


You lost your husband LONG LONG ago.......and you accepted this type of relationship by staying. 

NOW you want to deal with it in full force?

hehe

Better yet, tell us exactly what you have done to bring you 2 together when it comes to sex/intimacy? 

All you have done so far is lumped up every poster/advice into one group and deflected it vs actually take it seriously.

Yeah, anyone can pick/choose what advice they want to hear. Problem is, you are not addressing anything this way.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

DoF said:


> Rather than make a statement, why not point it out?
> 
> You are being passive aggressive......you only want to hear things/take advice you want to hear.


I said that I didn't want advice from the posters who were hostile towards me - I don't see that being passive aggressive, I see that as being assertive. 



DoF said:


> Chances are HIGH that what you are seeing from him now is all an act......to get you off his back, he will say whatever you want to hear.
> 
> You will resolve nothing, but good luck I guess.


Where do you get your crystal balls? 



DoF said:


> Also, if you were "perfect" as you make it seem,


Do I seem perfect? Seems to me from your responses that I seem I seem to be hiding things, a dictator, passive aggressive, and too lazy to address my issues earlier. Oh.. and also a nag.



DoF said:


> you would've addressed your "no sex" issue MANY years ago, with action......but you simply ignored it and now decide to bring it up when it's convenient?


I did-- or at least I have tried to address it. I've already stated that (in a post directly to you, I believe). if you're going to get up in arms about me not responding to your direct questions then have the grace to actually read what I write first to see if your ire is warranted. 



DoF said:


> I will take you up on it. Your biggest issue is no intimacy.


No - my biggest issue is no privacy. I've said that in black and white. Unless of course what you mean is that in your opinion my biggest issue is no intimacy, in which case once again you're projecting.



DoF said:


> Do tell me how you are innocent by staying in a relationship with no intimacy/sex for 5-6 years?


Do tell me how it's a crime to not have left already, or had an affair. And while you're at it - do ask him that same question.



DoF said:


> All you have done so far is lumped up every poster/advice into one group and deflected it vs actually take it seriously.


That's incorrect and anyone reading along can see that. I've lumped a few of the angrier sounding husbands into one group because I'm not about to be treated like "see? all wives are the problem and any dude who gets married is in for it." Why should I put up with that?



DoF said:


> Yeah, anyone can pick/choose what advice they want to hear. Problem is, you are not addressing anything this way.


I'm not addressing what you personally think I ought to be addressing. 

Please just let it alone. This is a personal issue for me and I can see that you've got the wrong idea about me and my situation.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Captainstormy - 
Sorry, no I don't believe that you have implied that I'm a liar. 

The thing is that him not wanting to go out, him not having any real joy for anything pre-dates his job loss by several years. And yes we talked about it many, many times. 

I can either not talk about it with him (so as not to be a nag) and then be miserable and leave or I can talk about it with him and risk being called a nag in which case we're both miserable and we'll still likely break up. You see the trap of the 'nagging' thing?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

DoF said:


> You know what I think about testosterone? It's bunch of BS
> 
> Some new marketing gimmick to sell us more crap. How do I know this? Well because it's all over TV nowadays and it seems like they are pushing this crap down everyone's throat.
> 
> ...



If you were actually reading any of the info instead of just criticizing it you would see that men didn't just do without testosterone in the past but their lifestyle was more conducive to healthy levels. You would also see that there is nothing to buy except food (which I presume most people already buy) and maybe some weights if a person needs some. Eating right, learning to relax, excercising all bring about healthy T levels. They have studies that show that levels are dropping in men just like girls are hitting puberty earlier. Our current lifestyles are affecting hormones. 

I used to be like you and think that people who didn't do right just needed to straighten themselves out. After my body being hit pretty hard when I lost a liter of blood, I found that the emotions and body are more connected than I realized. I couldn't pull myself out of it and I felt so guilty for finding myself in puddles just weeping unable to function. Through some studying I found how connected everything is. We are responsible for what we do with what we feel but we can't always control how we feel. Sometimes we do need help. Sometimes that help is in the form of a friend holding our hand and saying here join me on this plan to getting back your health. Our bodies are amazing and often will heal themselves we just have to give them a chance with the right support.

My husband and I have been seen each other thru times where we are working so hard to do the right thing, love for each other and love for our children demand it, but we are barely functioning, doing only the absolute essentials. Sometimes snapping at each other or falling apart crying but we hung in there found solutions and made it to the other side. The closeness we developed going thru those times together is unmatched by any other relationships in our lives. But first we had to get past the 'your just a bad person, your not trying hard enough' theory.

All that said I do agree we as a nation we over medicate things. But I feel we should fix the real problem instead of the symptoms not just ignore the problem.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

the2ofus said:


> If you were actually reading any of the info instead of just criticizing it you would see that men didn't just do without testosterone in the past but their lifestyle was more conducive to healthy levels. You would also see that there is nothing to buy except food (which I presume most people already buy) and maybe some weights if a person needs some. Eating right, learning to relax, excercising all bring about healthy T levels. They have studies that show that levels are dropping just like girls are hitting puberty earlier. Our current lifestyles are affecting hormones.
> 
> I used to be like you and think that people who didn't do right just needed to straighten themselves out. After my body being hit pretty hard when I lost a liter of blood, I found that the emotions and body are more connected than I realized. I couldn't pull myself out of it and I felt so guilty for finding myself in puddles just weeping unable to function. Through some studying I found how connected everything is. We are responsible for what we do with what we feel but we can't always control how we feel. Sometimes we do need help. Sometimes that help is in the form of a friend holding our hand and saying here join me on this plan to getting back your health. Our bodies are amazing and often will heal themselves we just have to give them a chance with the right support.
> 
> My husband and I have been seen each other thru times where we are working so hard to do the right thing, love for each other and love for our children demand it, but we are barely functioning, doing only the absolute essentials. Sometimes snapping at each other or falling apart crying but we hung in there found solutions and made it to the other side. The closeness we developed going thru those times together is unmatched by any other relationships in our lives. But frist we had to get past the your just a bad person, your not trying hard enough theory.


You are assuming that I live an unhealthy lifestyle and am like your husband.

I'm don't disagree with what you said though. And I didn't mean to come off as criticizing, sorry for that.



the2ofus said:


> All that said I do agree we as a nation over medicate things. But I feel we should fix the real problem instead of the symptoms not just ignore the problem.


Real problems will never get fixed. That's because real solutions don't make money and our entire society evolves around people/companies making tons of money!

Not going to change.....EVER.

But I agree, and sometimes use that wishful thinking too.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

DoF said:


> You know what I think about testosterone? It's bunch of BS
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's been proven that men's T levels were a lot higher in the past. For one thing nicotine helps to keep levels high and almost everyone smoked or chewed. 
Men used to do physical work all day, they weren't exposed to pollution and estrogens from food and plastic.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Past40, I think that you need to claim your right to privacy and alone time. How many bedrooms do you have in your house? 
Do you have a laptop? Would it be possible for you to go somewhere and work for part of the day? 
When was the last time he had a check up?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

My husband doesn't live a super unhealthy life. Stress just hit really hard (when you have high stress the hormones get converted to cotisol to deal with the stress instead of testosterone). We had no money for quite some time so in order to make sure we had heat, didnt lose our house and to make sure his children and wife who was pregnant and nursing had decent food he ate whatever was cheapest. We didn't have a lot of money for fresh produce or quality protein. He went from being a very active contractor who worked with his crew and swung a hammer a lot to working at a very sedentary job working long hours just to sort of make ends meet. So right there we hit, diet, exercise and stress. The doc who checked his levels thought he didn't look like someone with an unhealthy lifestlye, leading to low T but all the symptoms fit. They seem to be finding a lot more men who have stress related problems with it. Learning to relax is hard. Just wanted to say my husbands no slacker, just too much stress for too long without enough high boost of nutrients to get him thru it.

There is also an interesting study where they tested guys before and after a fighting match. Those who won had levels go up, those who lost had levels go down. When a guy "loses" over and over, like happened with the economy crash, imagine what might happen.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Past40 said:


> The males who are commenting are very, very defensive people and I have to tell you that although some of your observations were helpful, most of what the group of you has had to say is obviously coming from assumptions you are making about my situation based on your own personal experiences.
> 
> thanks but no thanks, in other words. Alluding to me having a lot to do with this but not expounding on it other than to say that I am probably lying or not telling the whole truth or assuming that I have been hard on him for losing his job/income - well those are not helpful whatsoever because they assume incorrectly. Why oh why would I fight for my marriage privately for years and then finally ask strangers for advice only to lie to them or hide the facts?
> 
> ...


Here's a post from a guy 

It sounds like you love your man there. Still. To this moment. But it's frustrating to live with someone who won't DO. I know this one; I lived with my ex for 20+ years and she didn't DO. Not to mention the no sex etc. 

But this isn't my thread. Just telling you I can relate. I did D, by the way. 

It sounds like he may have low T. If you can swing it, just pay for the blood test yourself, if insurance won't. You can take the results to your doctor and say here, see? Go to sites like WebMD (something reputable) and look up the symptoms of low T. Depression can be one of them. Lack of drive, low energy, etc. The list is pretty long. I know. 

It sounds like he recognizes the problems yet hasn't the will or drive to do anything about them at the moment. I'm not holding this up as a golden pill, and I'm no doctor, but it's not uncommon. I didn't catch it, but I'll assume since you're 43 he's around that age. So he's in the range...

I know patience being tested long term can wear you down and depress you. lack of sex, lack of relationship energy, all these thigns can make you thinkg wtf amd I doing here with my life? You're in the right time of life for an MLC, but it doesn't appear to me this is your problem. At least he's open to talking about it. 

I think you still love him. There may be a chance to save this. Wouldn't that be wonderful if it could be. If you do end up leaving, you sure want to be sure you did every possible thing you could think of. Bless you, I wish you well on this frustrating journey.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

DoF said:


> You are assuming that I live an unhealthy lifestyle and am like your husband.


I don't know where you get I'm assuming you live an unhealthy lifestyle. 

And secondly the people in your life would be lucky for you to be anything like my husband, he truly is an amazing, giving man.

Okay back to the thread sorry Past 40. I agree with doubletrouble 100%. It sounds like you still love him, sounds like you want to help him just not sure how. That is the reason I share our story, hoping you can find some hope and answers.

As for the lab test, in the states we can order some labs ourselves paying for them out of pocket, can you do that in Canada?


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

DoF said:


> You know what I think about testosterone? It's bunch of BS
> 
> Some new marketing gimmick to sell us more crap. How do I know this? Well because it's all over TV nowadays and it seems like they are pushing this crap down everyone's throat.
> 
> ...


How old are you, DoF? I know men who use it for physiological reasons and it helps. It's not an easy button. 

Yes, there have been millions out there who have lived without it. There is also a way to reduce the ill effects of low T, and our life expectancy is longer. 

Anything can be abused, I agree. But it's not total BS, IMHO.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

DoF, I do agree T isn't THE answer or the only one.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

doubletrouble said:


> How old are you, DoF? I know men who use it for physiological reasons and it helps. It's not an easy button.
> 
> Yes, there have been millions out there who have lived without it. There is also a way to reduce the ill effects of low T, and our life expectancy is longer.
> 
> Anything can be abused, I agree. But it's not total BS, IMHO.


I'm sure it isn't, I just look at it that way when flood gates of profits open up.

It's kind of like depression pills. Are there people out there that really have severe problems and need this medication, YES. Are these pills WAY too overperscibed and pushed onto people that don't really need them and can be recommended other ways (better diet/exercise etc).....for sure. No way in hell this should be a BILLION dollar industry.

What happen to Japan with depression pills is a great example. 

It's really hard to trust someone when they are in business to make profits/money. Is your health REALLY their priority? Or supporting their future business and profits?

HUGE can of warms that America is dealing with as we speak.

I won't even get into the risk of health issues these pills cause and other issues they create.....especially for those that don't really need it.

Besides the fact that depression is simply part of life......people just need to deal with it, but yes those with severe issues do need help. 

PS. I"m 35


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

DoF ~ I really do see the point that the ads are more likely pushed for profits not out of concern for our health. Doesn't mean we can't learn from their research and help ourselves. Diet and excercise should almost always be attempted first before we jump to another drug, except for things like cancer or emergency medicine, diet and exercise would have done nothing for my internal bleeding due to an ectopic rupture. But they did help regain my health after it . Lifes stresses can seriously affect our ability to cope.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

the2ofus said:


> DoF ~ I really do see the point that the ads are more likely pushed for profits not out of concern for our health.


Agreed



the2ofus said:


> Doesn't mean we can't learn from their research and help ourselves. Diet and excercise should almost always be attempted first before we jump to another drug, except for things like cancer or emergency medicine, diet and exercise would have done nothing for my internal bleeding due to an ectopic rupture. But they did help regain my health after it . Lifes stresses can seriously affect our ability to cope.


Correct, and how many people are willing to put in the hard work? Not many.

And that's why I blame people, LONG before I blame doctors or pharma.



Everyone wants an easy button, but in reality there isn't one.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

That's why I always encourage people to find out what they can do personally first.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

the2ofus said:


> My husband and I have been seen each other thru times where we are working so hard to do the right thing, love for each other and love for our children demand it, but we are barely functioning, doing only the absolute essentials. Sometimes snapping at each other or falling apart crying but we hung in there found solutions and made it to the other side. The closeness we developed going thru those times together is unmatched by any other relationships in our lives. But first we had to get past the 'your just a bad person, your not trying hard enough' theory.


I know that this wasn't directed at me, the2ofus, but I just want to say that it's so heartening & good to read. I feel essentially that that is where my husband and I can be if we can get over this hump. I was so angry and frustrated when I first posted but all in all what I really am is scared and worried - I know he's in there and I want him back! Thank you for all your advice re low T & the lifestyle changes that might help.

We'll (he'll) definitely be working on those.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

doubletrouble said:


> Here's a post from a guy
> 
> It sounds like you love your man there. Still. To this moment. But it's frustrating to live with someone who won't DO. I know this one; I lived with my ex for 20+ years and she didn't DO. Not to mention the no sex etc.
> <snip>
> ...


Thank you for your understanding words. Sharing your experience and giving your observations was helpful for me and goes to reinforce what I know deep down - I am in love with this man even if sometimes he makes me (and I make him) crazy!!!  And hearing from so many voices that there is still hope has given me the boost I needed to keep trying.

Yes, it would be wonderful if it could be.
----------------------------------- 

Thank you everyone! I'm feeling quite positive and uplifted. I'm hoping that he is truly a little more hopeful the past few days as he has seemed to be and he's not just "trying to get me off his back" as was suggested by a couple of posters. Time will tell - that could very well be the case, but I have faith for now.:smthumbup: 

fingers crossed!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

the2ofus said:


> That's why I always encourage people to find out what they can do personally first.


Yep, but how many "professionals" will do that? This usually fixes the issue and makes them 0 dollars.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Past40 said:


> Thank you for your understanding words. Sharing your experience and giving your observations was helpful for me and goes to reinforce what I know deep down - I am in love with this man even if sometimes he makes me (and I make him) crazy!!!  And hearing from so many voices that there is still hope has given me the boost I needed to keep trying.
> 
> Yes, it would be wonderful if it could be.
> -----------------------------------
> ...


Yes! Now I believe you're ready, at the proper time, to do the tough stuff to wake your husband to his responsibilities to the marriage.
I believe getting what you want/need (what you deserve) out of your marriage progresses a lot better coming from a place of committed love; not resentment, fear and anger.

We husbands are notoriously slow to realizing just how much jeopardy our marriages can come to...I'm one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Past40 said:


> I know that this wasn't directed at me, the2ofus, but I just want to say that it's so heartening & good to read. I feel essentially that that is where my husband and I can be if we can get over this hump. I was so angry and frustrated when I first posted but all in all what I really am is scared and worried - I know he's in there and I want him back! Thank you for all your advice re low T & the lifestyle changes that might help.
> 
> We'll (he'll) definitely be working on those.


I do the plan with my husband, for one it is easier for him and two It helps.my health, we have both been worn down over the last few years and need a boost. Dealing with a husbands stress can be stressful

It was for anyone that might question whether low T really exists. Even if low T was not the issue I believe the healthy living suggestions mentioned on some of these sites will help depression not from low T as well. Everytime I've seen anyone (including myself) naturally regain their health drinking lots of good clean water, low sugar (added sugars), whole foods, fruits and vegies, good clean protein, and exercise have been a part. As well most of us need to learn to truly relax and get regular sleep. 

Best of luck! We are not completely there yet still headed towards optimal health but for us the moods were the first thing to lift, then the libido. The levels are still low enough for libido to be affected by stress from time to time but that's improving as well.



DoF said:


> Yep, but how many "professionals" will do that? This usually fixes the issue and makes them 0 dollars.


My objection to your statement wasn't what should be done about it but that we really do live in a society where there are more and more men dealing with low T. Just because somebody offers a quick fix doesn't mean the problem doesn't really exist.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Diet and exercise are the best way to resolve health problems. Problem is, it requires study, work, and gumption. Discipline. 

How many people do you know who really do have a lot of self discipline? I see it as a declining social attribute across the board.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay. This is not an attack. But it is certainly germane.

He isn't drinking. You are. Does he think you have a drinking problem? Has he ever mentioned this?

Let me walk you through this.

You say you are 'happy and hyper' when you drink. Okay...what are you doing? Are you dancing without him? Are you a flirty drunk even though it 'means nothing'? .

And then you say he asks you when you get home late at night.

Um...why are you out drinking late at night without your husband? Do you know how bad that looks?

"Oh...I lost my job, my wife keeps telling me to get the hell away from her and she goes out drinking with her ****ty friends til late at night.'

Now he thinks he is about to lose his marriage too...because you don't seem to be afraid to share you feelings about other people according to your post. I know if I were about to be divorced, I sure as hell wouldn't be clicking my heels up.

I am not suggesting you are doing anything wrong. Occasionally having a drink (not to excess) even alone with friends isn't a bad thing.

However, his comment. How late are you staying out? Do you see how badly that looks to a guy in a certain frame of mind? This may (MAY) explain his lack of interest in sex if he's the suspicious sort. Instead of dealing with his doubts, he is passively aggressively turning off the stop****.

My post is trying to find the root causes of the problem.

But I think this was a 'validation' thread. You have already made the choice, you are exhausted and frustrated and want more out of life. You are heading out the door. 

If, as you say, you have been pounding out everything possible, wonderful! You are exonerated. Let him go. To deal with this is probably another two years of effort and you don't have that in you...not to mention you want to hook up with someone else while you still have the looks to do so (this isn't a selfish thing)

So instead of in depth heavy lifting, I would suggest two things.

1) You TELL him you are about to walk out the door. You have loved him for years, but he hasn't worked to fix your sex life, your issues and his depression. So he now has to sack up or you are gone. People respect deadlines.

2) You get him on hormone therapy and anti depressants. 

I think that a few months to see if that causes an appreciable change in his behavior isn't so out of line.

One could look at your behavior as enabling him to slug out. Don't do that any more. I get your frustration but you owe him clear messages and a (short) time frame to get his act together.

Just a suggestion.


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi JCD,
I haven't been here in a while so sorry for any delay replying.

Thanks for your considered reply - I agree with your thoughts on the matter, however you've misunderstood something about my staying up late and my drinking.

I have never gone out drinking by myself/with the girls without him. The last time I did that was more than 5 years ago and it's the only time I can remember ever doing it. When I do drink it used to be when we'd go to our friends places or out together for a meal or to see a band or whatever. I don't stay *out* late but I do sometimes stay *up* late. In the house. 

This brings us to something that you are right about, I think: I drink alone when I drink now. I'll have 2 or three beers / glasses of wine about 5 times a week, sometimes at odd times of the day. I've gotten undisciplined in that regard due to my profession and the way work comes in for me. Being a visual artist inspiration / commissions / orders hit at strange times and like I've said I work at home. If it's a glorious sunny afternoon and I have no work (or even sometimes if I'm deep into a painting) I'll have a couple of drinks. In short yes, I think he was worried that I had a problem. This caused some tension for a while because aside from the fact that the Health Guide says women should only have between 7-10 drinks a week I don't see the issue with me having 15 or so per week. Maybe I'm kidding myself? Maybe that is much worse of a habit than I think?

As for the rest of your post - well, perhaps I did want some validation. More than anything I'd like things to work out between us and even though he hasn't been quite as bad for the last little while he's still deadpan 99% of the time and I find I feel so utterly alone. We talk about the same two or three things over and over and over (weather, the people in our neighbourhood, the real estate market) 

I took the initiative twice in the sex department since last I wrote. I thought we had a good time, but nothing more has come of it. Oh well.

I feel suddenly kind of zen about everything. I don't even want to think about it any more. Something in my head has kind of crossed over and I'm sort of mulling over what life I want when our lease at this place comes to an end next year. I'm scared but I don't know what else to do. I can't carry this for both of us any more, I'm just too tired and hollow.


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## Staci_stars (May 5, 2014)

Past40 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My DH is a 'good man.' He doesn't drink, doesn't hurt me, he's reliable in terms of sticking to a daily routine & helping with chores.
> 
> I just want to be free and not feel like I'm trapped in this go-nowhere depressing world with someone who doesn't even touch me anymore and can't be bothered to even be honest with me.


So what are you looking for? would a sex hungry cheater be ok? You said he was a good guy. I guess sex, or lack thereof is a deal breaker? That can be fixed, in time.

I've seen many "wife's" leave their good man, for STD, beatings, etc.. I guess its what do you want?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Staci_stars said:


> So what are you looking for? would a sex hungry cheater be ok? You said he was a good guy. I guess sex, or lack thereof is a deal breaker? That can be fixed, in time.
> 
> I've seen many "wife's" leave their good man, for STD, beatings, etc.. I guess its what do you want?


:smthumbup:


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Past40 said:


> Hi JCD,
> I haven't been here in a while so sorry for any delay replying.
> 
> Thanks for your considered reply - I agree with your thoughts on the matter, however you've misunderstood something about my staying up late and my drinking.
> ...


I dunno. For some that would be OK. If that's really the number (be honest with yourself). I know as I've gotten older, I can't drink as much. It doesn't agree withi me. One beer can give me a headache. Damn! I love beer, especially on a hot day. 

If you're young (I didn't catch your age) that probably isn't much drinking. Unless you're also very small. So from me, I can't tell if it's a factor, really.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

While only a very few posters here are qualified psychotherapists it doesn't stop the rest of us from making a diagnosis or a suggestion as if we were. You have not presented anything that in my opinion sounds like a death sentence for your marriage. I do however think your husband is depressed no matter what he says. He certainly has had enough setbacks to make him feel less than a winner for you and he has said it outright so what more do you need? He needs your continued support until he can come up with a "triumph" for himself.

There is a very popular poster on the Coping With Infidelity forum who calls herself EI. She began her postings calling herself Empty Inside. Her husband initially sounded very much like yours does. It took him discovering her affair and a false reconciliation to get him to lift himself out of the hole he was living in. She and her husband started a thread on the CWI forum entitled "Reconciliation" and are living its example. It, the thread, is almost 800 pages long so I'm not suggesting you read it in its entirety nor am I suggesting you cheat on your husband to wake him up. I do think that EI and her husband B1 can give you insight as to what you are dealing with as they have for others.

Good luck and hopefully stay strong,

Seasalt


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## Past40 (Apr 19, 2014)

deleted


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