# Work is what's for dinner.



## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

I need some advice. Here is the issue. My husband and I have 4 kids. My husband works, and I work. We are both self employed. My husband works as many hours as someone with 2 full time jobs. I work 2 actual self employment jobs and I take care of the house, the finances, my vehicle, and 4 children. We have no family. I have one hired baby sitter that I can call (depending on her availability) if needed. My oldest child is 8.

I'm really easy going and deal with pressure very well. I am usually called on by business acquaintances, and neighbors to "help them." I try my best to manage all of this. 

So what has been going on is this, he works from 5am to almost 8pm, 6 days a week. I finally after many years had him slow down on Sunday. So now he works from 5am-2pm on Sunday. I know he is at work. 

I am working WHILE I take care of 2 small children, and the other 2 are in school and on weekends. Anyone who has small children can vouch for how incredibly difficult it is to do business filings, invoicing, business calls while there are 2 small children screaming, fighting, and accidentally doing something not good while you are working.

Even so I deal with it happily. I also make sure they have a fun life as they are my priority. I make sure they have plenty of fun outside play while I supervise. I make sure that they get to the park at least once a week. I make sure they have great experiences by taking them to ALL the birthday parties, the field trips, the zoo, chuck-e-cheese, the mall, everything I could imagine a kid wants to do I make sure they do it. And I am WITH THEM. My husband... at work. 

When my husband comes home, I still work. I am cleaning our house, filing our documents, cleaning, and feeding kids, and doing homework. I change diapers, give baths, clip nails, clean under beds, fold clothes. I can't even list all of the things. We eat and my husband sits on the couch and watches t.v. I understand he works hard and needs to decompress. I know that need, but I rarely get to do that. When I do, it is always as I am watching children. Never do I have a time to decompress where I am not being responsible for something. I'm ok though. 

I see my kids go up to my husband. They say, "Can you play with me?" And he will either ignore them, or play with them as he stares at the t.v. He will even tell them no. I will say, "Why don't you think it's a good idea to play with your child?" And then he will play with them because *I* told him to and then give me the silent treatment for telling him what to do. He never comes up with anything to do with the children. I take that back. Once I told him that he never initiates any family time. And the next day he said we should go to the zoo this Saturday. Well that Saturday that he "took off" to go to the zoo, he couldn't possibly miss that day of work. So after the kids were wound up about that, (try dealing with kids who are disappointed that they didn't get to go somewhere promised,) he set it for them to go the following Saturday. I let the big kids walk and I wore the baby in the carrier on my back. Well the youngest of the oldest kids is 5 and she got tired and didn't want to walk. After much inspirational talks for her to continue she finally started wobbling and crying because she was tired. I asked my husband if he could hold either child and he refused. After the 'sit down and refuse to walk' stand off occurred with the 5 year old. I picked her up and we continued. Me carrying a 5 year old and and a 2 year old on my back as my husband walked hands free along side of me. This is very symbolic of my life. 

If we are going out to eat lunch or dinner. He will get dressed and then sit on the couch and watch t.v. I will dress and prepare all 4 children as they fight me and he watches. He will repeatedly tell me to hurry up without offering assistance. And then when I am still not ready after the children he asks me why I always take so long. I ask him to give me a hand with preparing the children to leave and he sees how hard it is, but because I asked him to help out he gives me the silent treatment. In 8 years he has changed about 10 diapers TOTAL being prompted by me, he has given 0 baths, he had clipped 0 nails, he has gone to 2 school plays that I "dragged" him to against his will, etc. there is much more. 

Yesterday, I told him that I was still felt bad because the 2 year old almost took a bad spill and I caught her just in time. His response was, "Did you talk to the appraiser?" 

So in all this I never wanted to be the fussy, or nagging wife. And I definitely don't want to tell him what to do. I want him to see with his eyes. Like, does he not see this? He has to see? If I tell him anything like, "I see that you aren't doing much right now could you give me a hand with the kids? (Since we are standing in front of you struggling and you are just watching us struggle.) I can only make a similarity in this case. It is like watching someone you care for about to get hurt, and being right along side having the full capacity and attention required to prevent the accident and then just allowing it to happen as you watch. That is what I feel like this situation is in a nut shell. In fact it reminds me of the time that we were both working on an outdoor cleaning project at my child hood home. My dog was an aggressive dog and was out there. But it was my dog and I was familiar with him, and him with me. The dog sneaked up behind me (really) and attacked me. He was a very large dog. My husband stood there and watched. I was able to grab hold of the dog as the inside parts of my arm had been splayed outward, and finally was able to put him down through force. And then I ran away. The whole time my husband just watched. There were shovels, there were large items that he could have hit the dog with to get him off of me. But he just watched. I asked him later, "Why didn't you try to help me?" He said, "Well I was afraid the dog would have tried to attack me too. But it didn't matter because you did good to get away from him."  

Any communication that I try to initiate with him is met with silence, or "oookaaaay" as the response, as if to say, "So?" 

Sometimes he will start violently picking things up around the house and rinsing dishes, etc. I say, "Why are you doing that?" and he will say, "Well I guess you want me to clean the house for you." For me, him to do that would be like asking someone to catch a ball flying at them in left field and them running to home base instead. It's completely missing the point. I just want him to care about the children. I try to explain to him that I also work, and I am also tired and that does not give me a free pass to ignore the children. He will make a snarky comment about my job in reference to it not being "real work" because it is administrative vs. physical labor. He doesn't see the work I do with the kids as physical although I have to do a lot of physical work with the children. 

Last night I brought up divorce. I actually thought that if he didn't live with us and saw the children just on the weekend that he would actually want to do stuff with them. I just asked him about it. I know not to discuss divorce unless you are serious, but we have been together for 13 years and after years of thinking it in my head, and making sure I was serious, I was serious. 

I am asking here because I wanted an independent view. There is no way that he would share his side of the story with even me because he doesn't talk about anything that isn't related to business. So far we are still speaking, but it's strictly business chat. The tone has been neutral and friendly. 

Any advice?


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Did he ever want children? Or was it more of a "well, I guess that's what grown-ups do" sort of a thing?

Honestly, I think that divorce isn't likely to make him any more interested in the kids. Either he'd park them in front of the tv at his place on the weekends or he'd just start blowing off visitation. 

On the flip side, it might be easier to manage life with 4 children if you just knew offiically that he wasn't going to be contributing to the day-to-day herding of them all. It would perhaps help with you managing your expectations of his non-monetary contributions to the household. 

I suppose it's possible that he would be more engaged when the kids are older. I know that I have no clue about and even less patience for kids until they're around school-aged. Older kids I can tolerate and even enjoy for brief periods, but I can't see anything that would turn me into Parent of the Year. I just don't have it in me. It could be the same for him.

Either way, the best advise I have is to accept things with him as they are right now. You'll make yourself crazy hoping and scheming to make him into someone that he hasn't been in the what? 8 years your oldest kid has been alive? If this version of life isn't tolerable as it is, you may need to divorce. But definitely don't expect a divorce to result in a more equitable split of labor or greater interest in the kids.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

You do a lot.
My motto is: just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
I don't know why you guys have to work so much.
Sure, being responsible financially for your family is important, but it sounds like you do a lot of things, such as eating out, going to the zoo, going to a lot of parties, etc. that are optional.
You could find a middle balance.
It sounds like you are putting a lot of energy into creating some kind of life you have in mind for your family, that requires you to lead a double life to pay for it all.
Of course, this is not physically possible, you cannot have twice as many hours in a day.
Your life sounds crazy.
I think your H has the right idea. Work as much as he can, because if he's around, the money will be spent while he's not making it. It sounds like he doesn't endorse all these activities at all, and doesn't really want to even have a part in them, aside from passive, like another kid who does what he's told to stay out of trouble. Have you asked him what his vision is for ultimate family life? What he sees as best use of the funds, and how much funds might be truly necessary?
My daughter has many friends at school who hardly ever see their parents because they work so much. These kids have Lexus SUV, activities nearly every day of the week, big houses way far away from town, expensive new clothes vs. hand me downs and a lot of them too, and all kinds of other things their mums have determined they need to be a success at life (and their mums too.) 
It's not what the kids want. They really don't care. They go along because that's what they've been brought up to know that they are supposed to want. 

Take a load off already!


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't think that his work schedule has anything to do with his ability to care about his family. 

He doesn't care or love in a way that you respect or even understand. It will only get worse and you will feel more burdened as time goes on. 

You have thought for years about divorce because you know this is not something that you can change about him. You can't make him care. 

Your thoughts and actions to get a divorce seem reasonable.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

COGypsy said:


> Did he ever want children? Or was it more of a "well, I guess that's what grown-ups do" sort of a thing?
> 
> Honestly, I think that divorce isn't likely to make him any more interested in the kids. Either he'd park them in front of the tv at his place on the weekends or he'd just start blowing off visitation.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. I understand that it more than likely wouldn't make it easier for me. And it's very likely that he like many just thought kids were something that was a natural transition to growing up and didn't realize what that involved. This is most likely since we were together since we were really young. I do expect him to contribute more and then I am repeatedly disappointed. So I feel like I would be relieved to just have it set in my mind to never expect him to contribute. I actually *try* to live my life in that way right now. But when someone is dumping a large glass of milk onto the floor within arms reach of you while your wife is putting pants back on a child who she just bathed for the 2nd time in an hour, and not at the very least reaching out to catch it or even caring that it happened, it's just ... super disappointing to see that. Also, I do a lot of things for him. I cut his hair because he can no longer seem to find time to get to the salon (he used to always get his own hair cut before we got married, but now he can't figure it out) and I also wash his clothes which are usually coated in a thick layer of red clay. That is not easy. I always have to pick up his plates, I am 100% on the cleaning job there. I am a neat person, and my toilets are cleaner than most restaurant tables so I think that just the 1 less person to clean up after may be a relief.  I'm trying to determine whether or not I still love him. At current, the feeling is hard to muster.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

Basically what I see here is that if you divorce him you are saying that instead of getting minimal help from him you want to get zero help from him plus more than likely the way higher percentage of responsibility for your kids and now all at largely your own expense.

Yep that will teach the uninterested workaholic SOB a lesson. Take his entire home life work load off him 24/7 permanently!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

can you get him on TAM?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

whathappens said:


> I think that just the 1 less person to clean up after may be a relief.  I'm trying to determine whether or not I still love him. At current, the feeling is hard to muster.


It's hard to love someone when you cannot see anything valuable that they contribute to your life or your children's lives. 

Does he bring anything positive to the household?


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

married tech said:


> Basically what I see here is that if you divorce him you are saying that instead of getting minimal help from him you want to get zero help from him plus more than likely the way higher percentage of responsibility for your kids and now all at largely your own expense.
> 
> Yep that will teach the uninterested workaholic SOB a lesson. Take his entire home life work load off him 24/7 permanently!


I'm not trying to harm him in any way or try to teach him a lesson. I would gladly take zero help from him if it would take away my feelings of disappointment. And I believe that I could be able to take care of my children at my own expense.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> can you get him on TAM?


Nah, he refuses to use a computer.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh god, you roost brings back horrible memories of the early years in my marriage!

And the best part, he still denies he was a non existent father!

Sit him down and break up the daily chores you expect him to take over. Explain that you expect him to initiate fun times with the kids daily. Explain that you expect him to get his parenting duties done with a positive attitude toward the kids. When he does, don't criticize at all! Praise everything he does with the kids! 

My husband routines got out of any parenting duty because he was pissy while doing it or he would intentionally sabotage it. Like reading them a bed time story by mumbling he entire way through it so they'd cry if it was dad's turn to read to them! 

And you have to back way off in every area you can tolerate!

Sorry, can do more, I'm getting angry again just remembering.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Your husband is a workoholic and you seem to be one as well.

Cut back on all the "career" work. Do 1 job and AT MOST 8 hours.

Even after that you 2 won't have enough time to make sure everything "family" oriented is covered (guess how I know? I have 4 myself).

Have a CLEAR and DEFINED line between work and family/life.

Once you do that, you need to get your husband to take some load off you. Clearly you are doing WAY too much and he is not doing enough.

Key is to keep the 50/50 balance between work/life. And 50/50 balance between your workload and his (family oriented).

ANYTIME that balance is tipped towards either side and you get into 30/70, 20/80 or 10/90 in marriage WATCH OUT.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

whathappens said:


> Nah, he refuses to use a computer.


kinda figured. it was worth a shot. 

anyway, before you go for divorce, i would stop providing him domestic support, and explain to him why. dont cut his hair, dont make him meals, etc. 

explain to him exactly what it is you expect from him in order to get that back. it sounds like he has been taking you for granted, and somehow has gotten this idea that you should be taking care of everything at home, and he needs only make a paycheck. 

you have been enabling this line of thinking by continuing to meet his needs while he fails in domestic support. 

remember though, the idea is to try to get him talking. as soon as he does, work something out. maybe he feels you are not meeting some of his needs? who knows. right now he is getting away with treating you like a housemaid and you aren't giving him any consequences for it.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

DoF that is the formula that worked for you and your family. 

There are many dynamics in families and other formulas that can work. 

It is possible to have someone work outside the home lots of hours AND make their family feel loved and appreciated. It is also possible to have that family appreciate and be proud of that person as opposed to being resentful. 

The basis of that is teamwork and the foundation is love and respect. 

I doubt many women would have a lot of respect for any man that stood by and watched her be attacked by a large dog and not lift a finger to help- let alone her own husband.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> It's hard to love someone when you cannot see anything valuable that they contribute to your life or your children's lives.
> 
> Does he bring anything positive to the household?


Hmmm, the only thing I can think is that the kids are just used to him being around. He smiles at them and when they hug him he will hug them back. That is their dad. They don't see what I see. I guess it will be this point that will make it pretty certain that I will just deal with it all. I try to give my children the world, at the expense of myself. I wouldn't be able to handle it if they were sad. I actually asked the oldest in a very non-threatening way if they would be okay if their daddy lived in a different place but was still close and they would see him when ever they wanted that he wasn't working. I didn't use the word divorce, and I made sure they understood that it was just a thought and not something that was certain. My daughter said she would think about it, and my son said that he would not like that. So I guess I am now just weighing the options of living a pretend life like I'm happy to not feel the hurt of my children being sad, or live a life mopping up my children's tears as to not feel the constant disappointment and relieving myself of the care taking of a non-contributing adult. ****ty rock and hard place.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Do you need to work so much?
Maybe you'd be happier and would not need help from your husband if you were not working so much.

This is not to say what he is doing is "right".


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> kinda figured. it was worth a shot.
> 
> anyway, before you go for divorce, i would stop providing him domestic support, and explain to him why. dont cut his hair, dont make him meals, etc.
> 
> ...


And the funny thing is that the babysitter actually cleans up while she is here and she is here *maybe* 2 times a week. He actually said to me, "The only time I see the house cleaned up is when the baby sitter is here." And I said, "She doesn't clean the toilet, and she didn't wash and match all of your clean socks sitting in your sock drawer." He must think 100% of the housework is washing the few dishes in the sink and sweeping the floor, which is all she does. Yikes! Could he really be serious? :scratchhead:


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

whathappens said:


> Hmmm, the only thing I can think is that the kids are just used to him being around. He smiles at them and when they hug him he will hug them back. That is their dad. They don't see what I see. I guess it will be this point that will make it pretty certain that I will just deal with it all. I try to give my children the world, at the expense of myself. I wouldn't be able to handle it if they were sad. I actually asked the oldest in a very non-threatening way if they would be okay if their daddy lived in a different place but was still close and they would see him when ever they wanted that he wasn't working. I didn't use the word divorce, and I made sure they understood that it was just a thought and not something that was certain. My daughter said she would think about it, and my son said that he would not like that. So I guess I am now just weighing the options of living a pretend life like I'm happy to not feel the hurt of my children being sad, or live a life mopping up my children's tears as to not feel the constant disappointment and relieving myself of the care taking of a non-contributing adult. ****ty rock and hard place.


At some point they will learn from his behavior.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

They will never tell you they want their dad living elsewhere. Children want their parents together even when it's a bad idea. So, for the future, hints about the possibility of dad leaving are never a good idea.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Do you need to work so much?
> Maybe you'd be happier and would not need help from your husband if you were not working so much.
> 
> This is not to say what he is doing is "right".


It's kind of a sticky situation when you're self employed. Especially if you have several businesses running at once. You have projects and your clients are pressuring you to finish. And there are maintenance calls coming in. So you really just work at every possible time until the project is finished. Most of my actual income producing work is paperwork, phone calls, and meeting people. For example, today I was making phone calls for 3 hours straight as I cooked, and washed down all the walls in the hallways and bathrooms. (Washing down the walls, a bi-monthly task to get all the dirty hand/finger prints off of the walls.) When I got off the phone I read a book, did an activity page, gave baths, and dressed everyone. At current I have a napping child on top of me. I stopped pushing my advertising to not have more clients contact me, but I'm out there so if a client comes in I am going to work the case. I can't sit on it because there are deadlines. And that doesn't stop calls coming in for maintenance, which no one can anticipate. I really have a good thing going on, and I've worked so hard to get here. I'd hate to have to give it up. My children are not being neglected for my work, so I think that is why I can justify doing so much. I don't just buy them stuff, and never send them away. I am always with them and many working mothers would love to be able to say that about their children. So I feel grateful for my work and my situation. My husband was a work a holic when I married him, so I knew what I was getting into. It's just the not lending a hand while he is with us part that is really getting me. I guess, even though I manage the pressure really well and don't get worked up about it, it IS still getting to me without me being conscious of it.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> DoF that is the formula that worked for you and your family.
> 
> There are many dynamics in families and other formulas that can work.


Of course, I'm assuming OP has enough common sense to figure that out.



coffee4me said:


> It is possible to have someone work outside the home lots of hours AND make their family feel loved and appreciated. It is also possible to have that family appreciate and be proud of that person as opposed to being resentful.


Well, I question that a little bit. Is it possible? Sure. I can't really disagree on the proud/resentful part, but little time investment has an effect on family IMO.

Is it healthy for family? Depends on how many hours we are talking about.

I'm home at 4pm each and every day and no matter how much I do it's NEVER enough. 

2 full time jobs (as per OP) is WAYYYY too much, sorry.

In the context of this thread, what I said stands.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

Openminded said:


> They will never tell you they want their dad living elsewhere. Children want their parents together even when it's a bad idea. So, for the future, hints about the possibility of dad leaving are never a good idea.


We don't have arguments about this because my husband never responds with anything or is giving the silent treatment. There is no yelling in my house. I guess the situation is better for my children than the alternative.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

whathappens said:


> We don't have arguments about this because my husband never responds with anything or is giving the silent treatment. There is no yelling in my house. I guess the situation is better for my children than the alternative.


ANYTHING taken to the extreme is NEVER good.

That includes "complete absence of yelling".


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Hard work is fine. Providing for your family is admirable. IMO, however, a parent's primary responsibility is to be a parent, not a wallet. If work becomes such a priority that you no longer have the time or energy to be a parent (and a spouse!), then it's time to reprioritize.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I can kind of relate to your husband from when I was married. I don't really have an excuse for it.

I mean I was always a loving dad and went to stuff and took care of business, but when I came home from work I really left the heavy lifting to the wife in terms of childcare.

To me, that completely 100% shifted when I realized my wife went off the deep end. At that point I realized that if I didn't step up to the plate no one would. As the divorce proceeded and I had my kids on my own, I transformed from being backseat dad to super dad. I think the only thing that really precipitated this is knowing that I HAD to take charge.

If you are the kind of wife/mom that takes care of everything, your husband probably feels secure that you're always going to be handling it. There's not much of an incentive there. I've heard this advocated before, but could you maybe try for a few weeks the back off strategy?

Let him know, "Hey I'm getting overwhelmed and stressed out, feeling like I'm doing the grunt work on parenting. I'm going to be backing off, I need you to start stepping up or things are going to stop getting done around here." And then for the next few weeks take some steps away. Stop taking kids to activities, stop cooking all the dinners, stop doing all the laundry, stop caretaking for the children. Let your husband be a parent.

For that you will also have to give up some control. The kids will not get homemade buttersquash soup and have their clothes freshly laundered and folded. But that's the price you pay for relaxation time.

Most women kind of figure this out when they go on vacation for the first time. I see it on my FB wall all the time. "Jenny's going on vacation...I have no idea what I'm doing!" And then by the end of the week they seem to have their crap together. "I came home from vacation and Chuck had the house vacuumed, dinner made, kids to bed, what happened to my husband?"

It's just the power of positive pressure, of which currently your husband doesn't seem to have any.

Whatever you do, I strongly suggest you don't just accept things the way they are. That path is going to have you resenting your husband to the point that when you are ready to leave, there won't be anything he can do to save the relationship.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Do you need to work so much?
> Maybe you'd be happier and would not need help from your husband if you were not working so much.
> 
> This is not to say what he is doing is "right".


:iagree:
You can only change yourself (and influence your kids.)
You can't change another adult. Even if you're married to them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

whathappens said:


> And the funny thing is that the babysitter actually cleans up while she is here and she is here *maybe* 2 times a week. He actually said to me, "The only time I see the house cleaned up is when the baby sitter is here." And I said, "She doesn't clean the toilet, and she didn't wash and match all of your clean socks sitting in your sock drawer." He must think 100% of the housework is washing the few dishes in the sink and sweeping the floor, which is all she does. Yikes! Could he really be serious? :scratchhead:



i highly suggest you set your boundaries and stick to them before you decide to divorce. 

he could be acting like a complete ass, but until you make it very clear to him that you are entirely serious, and give him a chance to fix his behavior, i would think it pretty cruel to just drop divorce on him. all the signals you sending are obviously not going through. that or he just doesn't care. 

start withholding needs. if he cares at all, he will be willing to work with you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

it took awhile to get this way and it will take awhile for it to change.

I know my wife was very critical any time I tried to help. with statements like I do it this way and why are you doing it like that or even redoing some things that I did that were not up to her standards. Granted I'm a guy and do things differently but after enough critical comments and a attitude I just quit doing anything because she didn't appriceat it. It wasn't good enough that I was trying to help it had to be perfect or a remark was made.

theres more than one way to skin a cat.

the other thing I would like to mention is you say or include some things in you incredibly long list of things you do that I feel is or should be considered fun time with your children. taking the to friends,parties,zoo, etc all should be considered a bonus I know when my wife did thoese thing while I was at work and then came homw and said I had to do this and that with the kids I would fell hurt or resentful because she was the one who push to have children in the first place.

My advice is to try your best to find some middle ground and the accept it as best you can and look for the positives in your husband even go as far to say things like I'm soooo glad I have a hard working man who want to provide as much as he can for his family but I do mis spending time with you and our children together and keep saying it until the light bulb goes off for him.

with praise and understanding coupled with gentel prodding you might find him to turn around and be even a better husband/father than could have imagined.

mix in lots of sex also thats always made me feel like going the extra mile when I felt like my wife really desired me.

hope I'm not way off base and if so my apologies.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think what you wrote is a good reason to justify working. Becuase clients call? If you would be able to handle things better without tyring to balance so much without the support of your husband, you have to rule out why that is an option. Yes, it may not be fair, but rememeber you chose to marry a workaholic and you chose to have 4 kids with him... Now, you want to "choose" divorce and that does not seem to fair since you made this bed, and it wil harm kids which you could have chosen not to have given what you already knew.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> DoF that is the formula that worked for you and your family.
> 
> There are many dynamics in families and other formulas that can work.
> 
> ...


^^That is it. The work hours aside, it's about when he is there. The side line attitude is what is getting me. How can someone stand next to their wife and watch 3 children claw at her for different items and not at least get up and satisfy 1 of the children. 

Here is the situation: I'm in the kitchen preparing food for the family. All of the children are in the kitchen demanding different tasks of the me. My husband comes home smiling. He is flipping the t.v. channels and telling me about his day. The kids are arguing and asking me for different things all at once. I say, "Uhh, hey sorry to interrupt you but could you get this child juice and maybe hold this child for just a minute until I finish? (I always say sorry, thank you, and please to my husband.) So he stops talking and pours the juice in an upset fashion, and then hold the other kid and says with a mad face, "Does that work for you?" So... keeping the peace I would say, "I just needed a little help there. You can keep telling me about your day." And then I get the silent treatment for the rest of the night. 

Depending on if I feel like even starting to talk about it, I'll say something later on like, "I wasn't trying to interrupt you I was just needing some help. Could you not see that all the kids were demanding upon me?" And he is like, "Oh yeah.. the kids are always demanding on you." with a chuckle.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I get that a lot of the posters think the problem is the amount of work you and your husband do. 

But your post sited specific examples that don't have anything to do with work. 

The dog incident and the zoo incident have nothing to do with how much anyone works but are examples of exactly where you lost respect for him. 

It doesn't sound so much like you resent his work hours but that you resent his behaviors when he is at home. Things that you feel should almost be instinct he is oblivious to. 

Not sure how you can go about fixing that.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

whathappens said:


> I need some advice. Here is the issue. My husband and I have 4 kids. My husband works, and I work. We are both self employed. My husband works as many hours as someone with 2 full time jobs. I work 2 actual self employment jobs and I take care of the house, the finances, my vehicle, and 4 children. We have no family. I have one hired baby sitter that I can call (depending on her availability) if needed. My oldest child is 8.
> 
> I'm really easy going and deal with pressure very well. I am usually called on by business acquaintances, and neighbors to "help them." I try my best to manage all of this.
> 
> ...


Your situation sounds like my ex-husband, less the verbal abuse and physical threats, and less the two jobs. My ex-husband barely worked, and was always getting laid off every 6 months.

In a way, I empathize with your husband. He is not a bad man. He works hard to support the family. He doesn't want to work any more at home. He is not a play-games-with-the-kids kind of man. He is TIRED. I understand that you are equally tired. 

Why don't you both hire someone to clean the house once or twice week to give you a break? The money spent may be well spent if it reduces your stress and his and saves your marriage. If he says no or that you can't afford it, ask him if he can afford a divorce or the impact of a broken home. 

I ended up divorcing my husband because of all of the above, but if he were a hard working man who didn't stray with other women, and was not verbally and physically abusive, and just is too tired to play with the kids and do housework then I would never have left him. 

The result of leaving him, though, is that he is now a much more involved Dad. Just like your husband, I did everything and he did very little with respect to diapering, caring for the house and the kids prior to our divorce. After the divorce, he was FORCED to take care of the kids by himself, and he figured out how to do it. I'm not saying to divorce your husband in your case because he doesn't seem like a bad man to me. He just seems like an overworked, tired man.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

married tech said:


> Basically what I see here is that if you divorce him you are saying that instead of getting minimal help from him you want to get zero help from him plus more than likely the way higher percentage of responsibility for your kids and now all at largely your own expense.
> 
> Yep that will teach the uninterested workaholic SOB a lesson. Take his entire home life work load off him 24/7 permanently!


If she divorces him, he will have the children some of the time. She will would actually get a few days break every week or so. 

She would also no longer have to clean up after him and cook for him. 
With 4 children he will also be giving her about 40% of his income.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whathappens said:


> And the funny thing is that the babysitter actually cleans up while she is here and she is here *maybe* 2 times a week. He actually said to me, "The only time I see the house cleaned up is when the baby sitter is here." And I said, "She doesn't clean the toilet, and she didn't wash and match all of your clean socks sitting in your sock drawer." He must think 100% of the housework is washing the few dishes in the sink and sweeping the floor, which is all she does. Yikes! Could he really be serious? :scratchhead:


Stop doing his laundry. He's a grown man and do his own. Just tell him that you are doing too much and have to off load some things and this is one thing that is easy to do.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> I get that a lot of the posters think the problem is the amount of work you and your husband do.
> 
> But your post sited specific examples that don't have anything to do with work.
> 
> ...


Exactly, lol!! I don't know how to remedy that situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If she divorces him, he will have the children some of the time. She will would actually get a few days break every week or so.
> 
> She would also no longer have to clean up after him and cook for him.
> With 4 children he will also be giving her about 40% of his income.


Trust me, dealing with emotionally battered and neglected kids on Mondays plus taking them to the doctor's or the ER plus dealing with lost/forgotten homework, clothing, outdoor gear, special security-blanket type toys, lost glasses, Rx that didn't get stored properly or was not given on time (or OTC given without your knowledge right before child was dropped off, with symptoms of cold/flu/poison ivy in eye, etc.) is not going to give her any more time. It will just take up that much more of her Monday, one day lost every week instead. Plus getting the kids ready, scheduling around someone whose schedule changes on a moment's notice due to work, who will return the kids' clothes stained/damaged if at all... 

Unless she gets full custody there is no 'savings' in down time at all. In theory of course, there is savings. Plus there is the investment of half a year of any and all free time, sitting in attorney's office with children, etc. dealing with divorce and custody issues.

Divorce is not going to create free time at all. At best, it's break even. And the husband is still going to be there, she will still be co-parenting with him and his behavior is not going to change just because of divorce. He will be the exact same person. A lot of people make this mistake, thinking that because of divorce, the ex changes. Or the relationship changes. The only thing you get is your physical, legal and financial boundaries adjusted.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your husband does not understand that he is as responsible for the household and the children as you are. 

While you cannot change another person, you can change yourself. And in doing, it will influence him to change. Now you cannot control how he changes but he will change. If all goes well he will change in a way beneficial to you, your relationship and family.

Get the book "His Needs, Her Needs", read it and do the exercises. After have done this you will be better equipped to have the talks with him that you need to have to change things. Hopefully he will also read the book, do the work and become a better husband.

Do not take divorce off the table. Sometime you have to be willing to lose a relationship to save it. If your husband knows that things are so bad that he might be losing you, that might be enough to wake him up. 

By the way, I would have left a man who just stood there watching me while a dog mauled me. You are lucky that your injuries were not worse. The fact that he would not protect you and fight for you is a HUGE red flag.

What % of your joint income do you earn working your jobs?

Do the two of you really need to work the number of hours you both do to support your family? Or could you make it on less income?


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> If she divorces him, he will have the children some of the time. She will would actually get a few days break every week or so.
> 
> She would also no longer have to clean up after him and cook for him.
> With 4 children he will also be giving her about 40% of his income.


I feel sad to say, but I think he would be a better dad if he could only see his kids at certain times. I feel sure that he would actually miss them and look forward to being with them. He'd probably figure out things for them to do together. I remember one time my son came and started playing Legos in front of him. And I went up to him and whispered, "why don't you play Legos, I think it would make him really happy." He actually does what I say, I just hate that I have to say. Then he got down and played Legos. Now I always hear about the super happy day that daddy played Legos forever more. He's not argumentative. He would probably give us whatever we asked for as far as $. He's just like blind or something, idk lol! Maybe the divorce chat will help out. If he realizes that he'll be alone. I don't think he wants that. But I wouldn't have made the discussion if I wasn't serious. Straw breaks camels back, and all that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> By the way, I would have left a man who just stood there watching me while a dog mauled me. You are lucky that your injuries were not worse. The fact that he would not protect you and fight for you is a HUGE red flag.


The fact that he would just stand there and watch _anyone_ getting attacked by a dog, much less his wife, is pretty telling.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Trust me, dealing with emotionally battered and neglected kids on Mondays plus taking them to the doctor's or the ER plus dealing with lost/forgotten homework, clothing, outdoor gear, special security-blanket type toys, lost glasses, Rx that didn't get stored properly or was not given on time (or OTC given without your knowledge right before child was dropped off, with symptoms of cold/flu/poison ivy in eye, etc.) is not going to give her any more time. It will just take up that much more of her Monday, one day lost every week instead. Plus getting the kids ready, scheduling around someone whose schedule changes on a moment's notice due to work, who will return the kids' clothes stained/damaged if at all...
> 
> Unless she gets full custody there is no 'savings' in down time at all. In theory of course, there is savings. Plus there is the investment of half a year of any and all free time, sitting in attorney's office with children, etc. dealing with divorce and custody issues.
> 
> Divorce is not going to create free time at all. At best, it's break even. And the husband is still going to be there, she will still be co-parenting with him and his behavior is not going to change just because of divorce. He will be the exact same person. A lot of people make this mistake, thinking that because of divorce, the ex changes. Or the relationship changes. The only thing you get is your physical, legal and financial boundaries adjusted.


She is already doing all that herself, as well has cooking and cleaning after him. 

If she got a divorce he would have the children on some days... hence she would get a break. On those days she will not be handling most of the things you listed.

Of course it's better if the family stays intact. But in deciding what to do, she needs to look at different options. she has to make the decision on whether or not she can stay in a marriage in which resentment is eating her up.


I raised 3 kids mostly on my own with their other parent having them on some days. I've been through this so I'm sharing from my own experience.


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Trust me, dealing with emotionally battered and neglected kids on Mondays plus taking them to the doctor's or the ER plus dealing with lost/forgotten homework, clothing, outdoor gear, special security-blanket type toys, lost glasses, Rx that didn't get stored properly or was not given on time (or OTC given without your knowledge right before child was dropped off, with symptoms of cold/flu/poison ivy in eye, etc.) is not going to give her any more time. It will just take up that much more of her Monday, one day lost every week instead. Plus getting the kids ready, scheduling around someone whose schedule changes on a moment's notice due to work, who will return the kids' clothes stained/damaged if at all...
> 
> Unless she gets full custody there is no 'savings' in down time at all. In theory of course, there is savings. Plus there is the investment of half a year of any and all free time, sitting in attorney's office with children, etc. dealing with divorce and custody issues.
> 
> Divorce is not going to create free time at all. At best, it's break even. And the husband is still going to be there, she will still be co-parenting with him and his behavior is not going to change just because of divorce. He will be the exact same person. A lot of people make this mistake, thinking that because of divorce, the ex changes. Or the relationship changes. The only thing you get is your physical, legal and financial boundaries adjusted.



I didn't think of this yet. I'm taking everyones' words into consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

whathappens said:


> I was able to grab hold of the dog as the inside parts of my arm had been splayed outward, and finally was able to put him down through force. And then I ran away. The whole time my husband just watched. There were shovels, there were large items that he could have hit the dog with to get him off of me. But he just watched. I asked him later, "Why didn't you try to help me?" He said, "Well I was afraid the dog would have tried to attack me too. But it didn't matter because you did good to get away from him."


i somehow missed this part. 

im sorry, but your husband sounds like a complete coward.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> The fact that he would just stand there and watch _anyone_ getting attacked by a dog, much less his wife, is pretty telling.


No kidding. If I walked by someone this was happening to, no matter who they were, I would have picked up a shovel (she says that there was one) and beat the dog off her. Probably beat the dog to death as I believe that once a dog attacks like this the only solution is to put the dog down.

That he would stand by is a HUGE transgression.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I'd bet his side of the story would be interesting!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I'd bet his side of the story would be interesting!


:iagree:


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

COguy said:


> I can kind of relate to your husband from when I was married. I don't really have an excuse for it.
> 
> I mean I was always a loving dad and went to stuff and took care of business, but when I came home from work I really left the heavy lifting to the wife in terms of childcare.
> 
> ...


It was very helpful to read this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whathappens (Apr 11, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> :iagree:


I'd be happy to know what he felt about it too. It's probably resolve the sutuation but he won't talk. He's like one of those silent people that doesn't talk. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whathappens said:


> I'd be happy to know what he felt about it too. It's probably resolve the sutuation but he won't talk. He's like one of those silent people that doesn't talk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What as the duration of this attack? Could it be that it happened so fast that he had no time to react... except to be in shock? That might be the only even half way acceptable reason for him not jumping in to help you out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whathappens said:


> I feel sad to say, but I think he would be a better dad if he could only see his kids at certain times. I feel sure that he would actually miss them and look forward to being with them. He'd probably figure out things for them to do together. I remember one time my son came and started playing Legos in front of him. And I went up to him and whispered, "why don't you play Legos, I think it would make him really happy." He actually does what I say, I just hate that I have to say. Then he got down and played Legos. Now I always hear about the super happy day that daddy played Legos forever more. He's not argumentative. He would probably give us whatever we asked for as far as $. He's just like blind or something, idk lol! Maybe the divorce chat will help out. If he realizes that he'll be alone. I don't think he wants that. But I wouldn't have made the discussion if I wasn't serious. Straw breaks camels back, and all that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a son and two step children. Since my husband had full custody of their two children, their mother had them only a for a couple of holidays a year.

I ended up raising my step children without really any help from their father or mother. When I had them I had full responsibility for them.

Both my ex and my step children’s mother were better parents due to the divorce. This is because when the children were with them, I did not try to micromanage from afar… they had to take full responsibility.

When the kids were with their perspective other parent I was able to get breaks. I used to schedule my work and other things around the visitation schedules. I could catch up on my sleep and other things that I wanted to do for me. For example I’d work more on the days when I did not have the kids. Then when I can the kid I was able to have more time to just spend with them. It made it easier to be able to just concentrate on work or just concentrate on them.

Your husband does not have to do anything because you do everything. You are super responsible and he likes that. He take advantage of you. You have taught him that if he slacks off, he will pick up and do what he should be doing. If there is any chance at all of saving your marriage, you will need to start teaching him that you will no longer do your part and his part. He will resist this, but if you stick to a plan on this it will most likely change.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I make sure they have great experiences by taking them to ALL the birthday parties, the field trips, the zoo, chuck-e-cheese, the mall, everything I could imagine a kid wants to do I make sure they do it."

This is YOUR problem - not your husband's. Kids really don't need ALL those things ALL the time. This is why you have 3 kids crawling all over you when you're trying to cook dinner. They need to learn how to entertain themselves without direct contact with you.

Set some boundaries with your children and your husband. No one wants to walk in the door anxious to share their day with their spouse and (basically) be told to "shut up and help out".


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> Divorce is not going to create free time at all. At best, it's break even. And the husband is still going to be there, she will still be co-parenting with him and his behavior is not going to change just because of divorce. He will be the exact same person. *A lot of people make this mistake, thinking that because of divorce, the ex changes. Or the relationship changes. The only thing you get is your physical, legal and financial boundaries adjusted.*


Nailed it!


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> From what she posted it would probably lighten her workload quite a bit to be divorced. Not only would she no longer have to wash his clothes and clean up after him, she would be relieved of the stress of watching him reject their children.


My wife and I hit this who does what at home workload issue head on a few months ago. 

I flat out told her that if she does not want to do my laundry cook food for me or anything else she does not have to. In return I will stop doing what I do for her that I never make a fuss about and thusly she never realizes I do. 

My laundry is clean and she is cooking food right now! Apparently not having my stuff to do VS having to do the stuff I did for her came out a little unfair in the wrong way after about 4 days! 

My point is be careful about how you envy the grass on the other side. You don't know how much more work someone is putting into it until you get left to do their work yourself and find out you don't even have a clue about how to start the lawnmower!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

married tech said:


> My wife and I hit this who does what at home workload issue head on a few months ago.
> 
> I flat out told her that if she does not want to do my laundry cook food for me or anything else she does not have to. In return I will stop doing what I do for her that I never make a fuss about and thusly she never realizes I do.
> 
> ...


 Why do you assume that I don't know how to start a lawnmower.. pretty. 

Not only can I mow the lawn. I can do any home repair needed. Generally I have found that if I need something done. 

In a marriage where both spouses do a pretty equal sharing of the load of earning an income, taking care of the children, home/yard chores and house work it would be a crock for one to refuse to do their fair share. For example if my husband did all the yard work and auto upkeep (we live on a small farm) then I'd be stupid as it gets to refuse to do his laundry.

But in my case he spent the entire day playing computer games while I supported a family of 5, took care of all our 3 children, (2 of our 3 children were his from a previous marriage), did all the shopping, house work, yard work, paperwork/finances and anything else you can imagine. Yes it was that extreme. So in my case is was reasonable to expect him to do his own laundry. At least it was something he cared about. When he finally wanted clean cloths he'd clean them himself.

My point? What is reasonable in one situation is not reasonable in another. In the case of the OP her husband spends fewer hours between work, house work and child care then she does. By her account, he has pushed just about everything except his job onto her. It's completely reasonable that she pushes back on some items.. his laundry makes sense.

There is no rule in any book that the woman has to do the laundry. Apparently you feel that this is a woman's job and you have no responsibility for your own laundry as you would punish your wife, who works more hours then you do, is she asked you to do your own laundry.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> She is already doing all that herself, as well has cooking and cleaning after him.
> 
> If she got a divorce he would have the children on some days... hence she would get a break. On those days she will not be handling most of the things you listed.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Exactly! 

I know first hand that divorce caused an indirect benefit of having a lot more time to catch up on the things I needed to do. 

It is like free babysitting! I know that have regularly scheduled times when I can concentrate on the things I want or need to do. 

Don't divorce if you can help it, but for me, I am healthier, more rested and a better version of me having gotten rid of someone who was not helping me with the kids or housework. 

Believe it or not, it's true and not a fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> Why do you assume that I don't know how to start a lawnmower.. pretty.
> 
> Not only can I mow the lawn. I can do any home repair needed. Generally I have found that if I need something done.
> 
> In a marriage where both spouses do a pretty equal sharing of the load of earning an income, taking care of the children, home/yard chores and house work it would be a crock for one to refuse to do their fair share. For example if my husband did all the yard work and auto upkeep (we live on a small farm) then I'd be stupid as it gets to refuse to do his laundry.


It was more of an analogy but...... Basically my wife fell flat on holding up my part of daily work around here and backed off on whining about how little I contribute at home. That said I do toss a load of laundry in every now and then just the same. 

If you are as capable as you say I have more respect for you than you may realize! :smthumbup:


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

loveadvice said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I know first hand that divorce caused an indirect benefit of having a lot more time to catch up on the things I needed to do.
> 
> ...


This is what I've been thinking about lately. It will be less work for me to be alone. There has to be enough balance when you have a partner that you don't have more work than benefit. 

And ITA with EleGirl, women, or anyone for that matter, can figure out how to mow lawns and do home repair. I learned how to take apart and replace part of my furnace, fix my plumbing, etc from reading and watching stuff online. I did it myself because I was sick of asking him for things. When you are made to be alone in a relationship you figure out how to manage. By that point though, you might as well be single since you're living like it anyway. 



whathappens said:


> Sometimes he will start violently picking things up around the house and rinsing dishes, etc. I say, "Why are you doing that?" and he will say, "Well I guess you want me to clean the house for you."


The whole cleaning the house _for you_ stuff is just like saying "babysit" the kids when you are their parent. I've heard it before too and I hate it.
He has to get to the point where it doesn't view helping with the house and kids as a favor to YOU. It's because it's his responsibility as an adult and Father. 

I think you knowing you are serious is good. It may take a big shake up for him to realize, if you think he'd be a better father is you were apart then that might be what it takes. Don't let things just slide back into this routine.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> The whole cleaning the house for you stuff is just like saying "babysit" the kids when you are their parent. I've heard it before too and I hate it.
> He has to get to the point where it doesn't view helping with the house and kids as a favor to YOU. It's because it's his responsibility as an adult and Father.


I am going to somewhat disagree with this. 

The problem I see too often with the issue of who does what and to what extent often times simply comes down to the standard and expectations of each person involved. 

My wife has way higher and near OCD level preferences for how clean and organized our house should be. I however have more of the common average persons views of things. 

It's not that I want to live in a dirty house but by my standards washing cloths as needed and stuffing them back in a drawer is good enough. Nothing needs to be perfectly folded and tucked away for me. 

Same with cleaning the house. Vacuuming every 2 weeks is fine and dusting two - three times a year is plenty by my standards.

Same with going to town. I could care less if my shirt has a toothpaste spot on it or if my pants clearly show that I kneeled down on some dirt at some point in the day and I really don't care whether or not my shoes accent my shirt or whatever.
My wife however will make all three offences sound like I am going to town with raw vomit on my shirt, that I pooped my pants all the way down into my shoes that I stole off of a dead hobo.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I had to laugh at dusting 2-3 times a year. There's no way I wouldn't dust my house weekly or at least every other week. A dusty house is dirty. Marriedtech, are you sure your wife is not the normal one with respect to cleaning?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

tennisstar said:


> I had to laugh at dusting 2-3 times a year. There's no way I wouldn't dust my house weekly or at least every other week. A dusty house is dirty. Marriedtech, are you sure your wife is not the normal one with respect to cleaning?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We also dust just a few times a year. We don't have a lot of clutter so it's really not necessary. When we dust we take everything off the shelves and we wipe down with a damp cloth. 

When I lived in Arizona I had to dust all the time, I even had all those covers for various appliances that are sensitive to dust: computer, TV, stereo. 

Some places just aren't prone to dust the way others are. I'm sure there are regional differences. 

I do vaccum when it's needed, not every day but I'd say 3 out of every 5 days. 

I have dust mite allergies, as does my daughter, so if there was too much dust, we'd know it. 

My guess is that people who don't dust very much and don't find it necessary or feel obliged to do it, also are the types that don't have much tolerance for things known as "dust collectors." I know I don't. If it doesn't have a function or a deep sentimental values, you won't find it in my house.

I also only wash the kitchen and bathroom floors about once a month, maybe once every other month. 

My kids and I hardly ever get sick. I can't remember the last time someone in my house was sick. We are clean, I clean the things that matter (with white vinegar solution) and worked as a public health specialist/field medicine specialist in the military before, it's not like I don't know what I'm doing!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

dust?

the only time i ever dusted anything was when i was in iraq...


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> We also dust just a few times a year. We don't have a lot of clutter so it's really not necessary. When we dust we take everything off the shelves and we wipe down with a damp cloth.
> 
> When I lived in Arizona I had to dust all the time, I even had all those covers for various appliances that are sensitive to dust: computer, TV, stereo.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I am talking about! Not all people have places that gather high levels of dust to begin with nor do they have the same level of what is or is not acceptable to them in terms of relative tidiness. 

I grew up on a farm and do a fair amount of mechanic and general outdoor work which for me means I have spent a good deal of my life buried up to my armpits and beyond in every imaginable form of grime and yuck and fluid that could be produced by animal or machine. 

Believe me based on that standard vacuuming once every week and dusting every 4 - 6 months is plenty clean enough! 

BTW interestingly enough unlike all the hyper clean people I maybe get a cold once or twice a year at best and outright stay in bed sick once every 2 - 3 years Vs the cleano's who are bedridden near death sick every 2 - 4 months. 

Kinda wired how that works that us 'filthy slobs' have bullet proof immunity to most everything and the clean freaks almost die from over exposure to dirt under a fingernail?


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Maybe it has to do with where I live....but I dust at least every other week.

I don't have a lot of dust collectors either. I am a "less is more" person. I don't have a lot of clutter and don't believe in keepsakes, collectables, knickknacks etc.

From marriedtech's posts, I think he puts his wife down a lot for bring too clean. Hey it could be a lot worse, she could be a hoarder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not a clean freak marriedtech and I'm rarely deathly sick. I don't get colds that often. I do like clean, though, but I don't think I'm obsessive. I work full time and clean my own house. I try to mop and vacuum every week, but sometimes I don't have time and do it every other week.
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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> I do like clean, though, but I don't think I'm obsessive.


I find cleaning to be much like alcohol. It's not really and issue until your actions and routines start affecting others in a way they do not like or can be seen as being an unhealthy excess for you. 

I like a little clean myself now and then but certainly dont make a daily habit of it and I never push it on others when I do!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

married tech said:


> BTW interestingly enough unlike all the hyper clean people I maybe get a cold once or twice a year at best and outright stay in bed sick once every 2 - 3 years Vs the cleano's who are bedridden near death sick every 2 - 4 months.
> 
> Kinda wired how that works that us 'filthy slobs' have bullet proof immunity to most everything and the clean freaks almost die from over exposure to dirt under a fingernail?


It's the same here.
Hardly ever sick. Can't remember staying in bed, maybe on the sofa, quite a few years ago?

Filthy slobs unite!

What gets me is when we go camping, and you see people who have serious issues with cleanliness, they have to use the common toilets and well, common toilets at campgrounds are not sparkling clean. I feel sorry for them. You'd think brushing your teeth in a common sink where other people have spit was a death sentence. My kids and I don't worry so much, and much to her mom's horror, we converted our friends' daughter over to the "filthy slob" camp. Too funny. 

I've lived in loads of "common space" situations, for extended periods of time. The thing is, the more you know about things like TB, CDIFF, meningitis and hepatitis, the more you learn that you can't worry about them. We get vaccinated and tested according to modern standards, and in a hospital are more careful, especially in ICU, but there's really no way to see microbes or to know that you're being exposed. And worrying or over-cleaning yourself would lead to diminished immune system and paradoxically increase your chance of catching them.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

Some of my family that have been life long public school employees and I were just talking about the over clean generation we have now. 

Interesting comments were that the older generation they are from and most of my generation that work in the schools rarely ever get sick and if they do they rarely ever are bad enough to call in sick and stay home. 

Now today generation of teachers and workforce that are of the ultra clean generation being around 20 - 30 years old are constantly sick and most of them burn up their years worth of sick leave lus personal days before the school years are half over. 

The most interesting comparison is that the older generations members who never get sick also fully admit the live in less than spotless houses and quite regularly have hobbies and outdoor activities raising animals and gardening that expose them to all levels of germs, bacteria, viruses and grime. 

Now the ultra clean people can't figure that out. They grew up in spotless houses never touched anything that may have been outside, eat only pure organic foods and never ever did or do anything that might be associated with germs by their standards and continue to live like that today yet they are oddly the sickliest people around and their kids are even worse.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok, ok, I'm sorry that I imposed my standards on marriedtech. 

I was actually trying to defend his wife, who he says is being unreasonable about her cleaning standards. I was trying to say that she might not be unreasonable at all. 

Btw, I finally decided to get a cleaning lady twice a month and after all my cleaning efforts and only 2 people living in my house, she told me my house wasn't that DIRTY, but it needed a lot of fans dusted, baseboards cleaned etc. And here I was thinking it was clean. So we all have different standards of clean. Just because marriedtech's wife has different standards doesn't make her wrong.
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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> Ok, ok, I'm sorry that I imposed my standards on marriedtech.


You didn't impose anything on me. 



> Btw, I finally decided to get a cleaning lady twice a month and after all my cleaning efforts and only 2 people living in my house, she told me my house wasn't that DIRTY, but it needed a lot of fans dusted, baseboards cleaned etc. And here I was thinking it was clean.


So far you have been cleaning to your expectations and everything was fine. Now you brought in someone else who holds themselves to a standard higher than yours. No problem with that unless that maid lived with you and went into screaming fit every time you did not clean things to her standards and not just up to yours.
That's the problem I have and just like you I will keep things cleaned up to my standards and anyone who wants to go above and beyond that is free to do so at any time. Just don't expect me to help out. 



> So we all have different standards of clean. Just because marriedtech's wife has different standards doesn't make her wrong.


Exactly! Your standards are yours and yours alone and there is nothing wrong with them until you start forcing others who do not agree with your standards to adhere to them at their expense.


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## Willowlake (Mar 18, 2014)

> He has to get to the point where it doesn't view helping with the house and kids as a favor to YOU. It's because it's his responsibility as an adult and Father.


This is so important. This is an issue in my marriage as well. My H actually feels hurt if I don't thank him for doing the dishes or helps me carry the groceries in. He feels that he is helping me, doing me a favor, so I should thank him. He acts like me not thanking him is me being ungrateful. But he has never once in these twenty years thought to thank me for doing the same things! Hello??? Why is it a special thing when he does the dishes but not when I wash them or when the kids wash them? The answer is because the dishes and everything else he expects to be thanked for doing are categorized as not his job in his mind. 

He doesn't expect to be thanked for mowing or shoveling snow because he sees these things as his job. I do mow and shovel snow but I see that as me helping out our family as a unit, not a personal favor to him. 

I would never expect him to thank me for doing what needs to be done and I refuse to pander to his need to be thanked. This has created some pretty strong anger in me and some resentment from him. This type of thinking can really poison a relationship.


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