# back to sex once or twice a month



## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

hi there everyone, after having sex more than twice a month for a month (4 times) i am back to the same old story, there is nothing wrong with my wife, but all she wants is me to be there as the husband who is dependable and strong, sex is an inconvenient add on for my wife, even when we do have sex its now awkward as i know my wife doesnt realy want to do it, she makes me feel like i am doing something wrong, ihave tried talking to her and have tried anything and everything in bed but nothing changes, i have tried to talk to her to see if we can change anything to help but my wife says she is happy the way it is, what the hell am i to do! fed up pissed off and so frustrated!


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I couldn't live with a women that didn't want to be with me. I came to TAM to figure out why my wife and I didn't have sex. I am a natural Beta (raised by a single mom for years that preached the "nice guy" idea) I started reading "Married Man Sex Life primer" and realized I was being Beta. Have since become more Alpha and my wife's drive went UP. 

But if your wife is "happy the way it is" I'm guessing that she is just not attracted to you. That could be because of being to Beta, It could be that there is OM, any other red flags? It could be that you are a meal ticket. Does she masturbate?


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

hi there sbrown, i have allways been mr nice guy also, i walkaway from arguements as when i was a child my parents house was full of agression. i will have a look at the book you mentioned, can i ask what OM means, my wife says she loves me with all her heart but i have had so many disscusions about our sex life with her with either very short term improvment or none at all, its not as if i want sex every night, just a bit more frequent and a bit more passionate than it is. oh and no she doesnt masterbate,


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Have you guys tried MC ? If there is nothing wrong physically with your wife, then you should really try talking to a counselor. Has your wife been checked by a doctor, i.e., blood work, etc. Low sex drive can be a physical symptom of an underlying medical condition.

I would not however just "let this ride". You have to assert yourself more and let her know that if this doesn't change, she could lose you. I don't think you are giving her any consequences for her lack of behavior. Just my thoughts.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

my wife refuses mc, and my wife has been checked out medically and all is fine, i have also said that this cannot continue and i would leave if nothing changed, she then says she will try harder but it either doesnt change or if it does its only for a couple of weeks,


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

are you sure she is orgasming when you have sex?

I think alot of women don't and are ashamed or embarrassed to tell you what they like. they also don't want to hurt your feelings but telling you they aren't getting off. 

since she doesn't tell you what she likes watch some videos of women masturbating and and try to incorporate it into your love making.

or trade her in on a new model. one that likes sex preferably.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

pjp said:


> my wife refuses mc, and my wife has been checked out medically and all is fine, i have also said that this cannot continue and i would leave if nothing changed, she then says she will try harder but it either doesnt change or if it does its only for a couple of weeks,


Maybe too much pressure? 








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

pjp said:


> my wife refuses mc, and my wife has been checked out medically and all is fine, i have also said that this cannot continue and i would leave if nothing changed, she then says she will try harder but it either doesnt change or if it does its only for a couple of weeks,


Refusing MC is a HUGE red flag to me. It shows that she doesn't see the damage that no sex does to a man, and she thinks the marriage is fine. If it where me, it wouldn't be an option. Find a MC and make the appointment, if she refuses to go, go by yourself and then go home and call an attorney. She needs to have some consequences or there will be no change. She doesn't take you serious. 

OM is other man


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:iagree:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sbrown said:


> Refusing MC is a HUGE red flag to me.


Agreed. I never ever understand why 1 partner completely poo-poos the idea of MC, especially if the other has serious concerns and wants to go.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I posted this in another thread but it fits here as well. 



> One day my wifes sister comes over so my wife can help her pick out an suit for a business awards ceremony. My wife mentioned a nice skirt but her sister said she hadn't shaved her legs in months YES MONTHS! My wife says "Doesn't that bother you when you and your H have sex?" My SIL response was that "H knows better to even ask." I looked at my wife and said, "You EVER develop that attitude, I will throw your **** in the front yard!"


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Agreed. I never ever understand why 1 partner completely poo-poos the idea of MC, especially if the other has serious concerns and wants to go.


I think it's because they figure they'll get blamed for a lot of things/everything, either because they have no problems but their partner does, or because they already know there are problems in the marriage caused by them and they'd rather avoid the issue and maintain the status quo. 

As for the OP's issue, I think it comes down to currency in the marriage. You are clearly providing something she needs, as she's not only not complaining but also has no desire to work on improving the marriage. Maybe, as another poster suggested, you are a meal ticket, a pay cheque, or a good friend, stc. Whatever it is, you need to find out.

In the meantime, I'd look at just getting on with your life. Ignore sex. Thinking about ti isn't getting you anywhere anyways, so ignore it and spend the time focusing on you. Get a hobby, go out with the friends, do somethings for just you. If you're not enjoying your sex life, you can enjoy other aspects of life.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I think it's because they figure they'll get blamed for a lot of things/everything, either because they have no problems but their partner does, or because they already know there are problems in the marriage caused by them and they'd rather avoid the issue and maintain the status quo.
> 
> As for the OP's issue, I think it comes down to currency in the marriage. You are clearly providing something she needs, as she's not only not complaining but also has no desire to work on improving the marriage. Maybe, as another poster suggested, you are a meal ticket, a pay cheque, or a good friend, stc. Whatever it is, you need to find out.
> 
> In the meantime, I'd look at just getting on with your life. Ignore sex. Thinking about ti isn't getting you anywhere anyways, so ignore it and spend the time focusing on you. Get a hobby, go out with the friends, do somethings for just you. If you're not enjoying your sex life, you can enjoy other aspects of life.


That sounds nice, but it doesn't really help. What happens is the OP will get frustrated and resentful that he's expected to be in a monogamous relationship yet his his needs to be in that monogamous relationship aren't being met.

And when his needs aren't being met and he's frustrated and resentful, her needs won't be met and thus the downward spiral starts.

If it was a desire for a particular car then yes, he could ignore it and move on. But sex is a physical and emotional need for a guy.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm not saying to ignore it forever. I'm saying he needs to get his head on straight.

Transfer the focus on sex for a while. Even a month or so. Get settled into the mindset of acceptance, it'll displace much of the anger. Additionally, by finding out what she's getting from the relationship, he'll know what his bargaining chip is. For example, if he's a paycheque to her, threatening to stop being that paycheque will likely cause her to focus more seriously on keeping him happy.

It's sad, but humans don't do anything without motivation and most of the time that motivation comes from keeping your own needs met. For some, we are proactive about it and try to tackle a problem before it even becomes a problem. Most however are like this man's wife, just ignore the issue until your forced to act on it or face the likelihood of having a need or needs not met.

He needs to find out what motivates her in this relationship, but, unless it's plainly obvious, that could take time. Maybe he's a meal ticket, maybe he's just a really good friend, maybe it's something else like she just can't stand to be alone. He needs to figure that out. Until then, get your head on straight and start taking your life back. Enjoy yourself and get away from sex and the thoughts of it, because right now all it's causing is grief. 

Once he's got his head clear and he's got a better focus on what she's getting from him, he needs to lay it out plain and simple. "I need sex to be more frequent in this relationship, or I'm going to leave." And he needs to reminder her of what she'll be missing out on if he goes.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

hi there all, thanks for all your comments, i have tried to talk to my wife again today and she lost her temper and told me she was doing nothing wrong, also as to say i am a meal ticket and the so called backbone of the house, she once told me she would remarry if i died so there would be someone in the house to provide and kill any spiders! on the odd ocassion we do have sex its so awkward as i know she doesnt realy want to do it, and i cant realy get into it as it almost feels like i have to force her into it, it doesnt make for good love making! still fed up, pissed off and a number of other things!


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I guess it is time to take away her meal ticket and leave the spiders where they be.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pjp said:


> hi there all, thanks for all your comments, i have tried to talk to my wife again today and she lost her temper and told me she was doing nothing wrong, also as to say i am a meal ticket and the so called backbone of the house, she once told me she would remarry if i died so there would be someone in the house to provide and kill any spiders! on the odd ocassion we do have sex its so awkward as i know she doesnt realy want to do it, and i cant realy get into it as it almost feels like i have to force her into it, it doesnt make for good love making! still fed up, pissed off and a number of other things!


Stop killing spiders!

Also, yeah, start to move on with your life. I'm not saying get divorced, but look at making yourself happy. Also, begin to prepare for an exit strategy, just in case you do divorce. Take some money and stick it aside in an account so you'll have something to get a new place if you have to. Get your or her name off of stuff like bank accounts, lines of credit, etc. so that everything is easier to seperate between the two of you. If you have kids, consult a lawyer and get advice on how to gain equal or sole custody if you wish.

You may be emotionally ready to leave, but get yourself physically and financially ready as well before you do anything.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> He needs to lay it out plain and simple. "I need sex to be more frequent in this relationship, or I'm going to leave."


IMHO this is terrible advice. I don't believe that ultimatums have any place in marriage, ever. All he will achieve is adding to the resentment she's already expressing, and make things worse. 

Sex meets many of my needs for emotional and physical intimacy. The best that any of us can do is express our needs to our spouse and let them know how deeply the issue is affecting us and the marriage. Often times the problem is that communication has broken down and the hurting spouse doesn't know how to express their needs or their hurt. The other spouse may not realize that sex is about more than enjoying physical pleasure. That is one of the functions of marriage counseling ; to help spouses communicate their needs to each other, and to seek balance. There have been many posts here and on other message boards from spouses who say that they had no idea that sex meant so much to their partner beyond physical pleasure.

Ultimatums are usually a desperate attempt to communicat the depth and severity of a problem, but they are not communication. Once the nature of the hurt has been sucessfully communicated and understood through other means, then there is a reasonable expectation that an effort be made to solve the problem. If the fact that I am lonely and hurting isn't enough to motivate my wife to re-establish intimacy, then a demand isn't going to do it either. If there are no health or physiological reasons for any issues in a marriage, and a spouse doesn't want to address the problems, then clearly the fundamentals of the marriage have broken down. At that point we can encourage change, but we can not demand it. 

To the OP my suggestion is to make every effort to communicate exactly what you get from sex. If you don't understand what you get emotionally from sex, then take some time to learn and understand the role that sex plays in a marriage. Then communicate your needs in terms that address your emotional, and even spiritual connection to her ; that you want and need to feel close to her, that sex is a deep and intimate connection, and so forth. Put it in terms that clearly show that this is about her, your love for her, and your marriage to her. 

Once you've expressed your needs, no ultimatum is going to make her want to meet them. She either wants to or doesn't. If she shows no interest in creating a better and more intimate marriage, then you have a choice. The best anyone can do is either decide that other parts of the marriage are worth choosing to live with it, or get a divorce and move on. 

I wish you the best


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have to teach your wife about marriage.

She has to learn that being a marital partner involves meeting the other person's needs. Really part of your own personal fulfillment is to meet the other person's needs along with getting your needs met. It involves understanding what the other person's needs are, using your own mind to want to be that type of (giving) person, and also communicating what your own needs are so you can get fulfillment from your marital partner.

There are many ways to teach her about this... Talking at lenght is probably one of the worst.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> IMHO this is terrible advice. I don't believe that ultimatums have any place in marriage, ever. All he will achieve is adding to the resentment she's already expressing, and make things worse.
> 
> Sex meets many of my needs for emotional and physical intimacy. The best that any of us can do is express our needs to our spouse and let them know how deeply the issue is affecting us and the marriage. Often times the problem is that communication has broken down and the hurting spouse doesn't know how to express their needs or their hurt. The other spouse may not realize that sex is about more than enjoying physical pleasure. That is one of the functions of marriage counseling ; to help spouses communicate their needs to each other, and to seek balance. There have been many posts here and on other message boards from spouses who say that they had no idea that sex meant so much to their partner beyond physical pleasure.
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of ultimatums either, but when you break down his issue, it's basically he needs more sex from the marriage and he has tried to talk this issue over with her. At some point, yeah, you need to lay it out on the table.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i have tried to talk about this issue with my wife about a dozen times now so i dont think ***** footing it around is going to work, she has said a few times that she will try but that just ends up us having sex maybe 3 times a month, and that wouldnt be great sex anyway, and then back to the twice a month if i am lucky, i have told my wife i love her so much, i do everything in my power for her, i know this cannot continue as it is tearing me apart, and thats not just the lack of sex its the fact that she isnt making any effort, what does that say about me and her?


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I'm not a fan of ultimatums either, but when you break down his issue, it's basically he needs more sex from the marriage and he has tried to talk this issue over with her. At some point, yeah, you need to lay it out on the table.


An ultimatum of any sort is, in essence, saying "What I want is more important than anything that you may think, feel, or have to say about this situation." It is not communication. It isn't going to accomplish anything other than possibly grudging sex.

Likewise, a spouse can't say "We need marriage counselling so you'll agree to have sex with me." The other spouse just hears "You're wrong and let's get someone else to tell you you're wrong." If on the other hand a spouse says, "I am lonely. I miss you. I miss feeling connected to you and being intimate with you. I think this has the potential to break up our marriage. I would like to go to marriage counselling to learn how to reconnect with you and have a better marriage with you.", then the cards are on the table and expressed in a way that encourages the other spouse to be a part of the solution. A spouse ignores those kinds of statements at their own peril. 

If that doesn't work then IMHO it's okay to turn up the heat a little bit. "I am so lonely. I love you and want so badly to make this marriage work. Please work on this with me." At that point a spouse who still says no to marriage counselling and working on rebuilding a healthy sex life has pretty clearly said "I don't care." 

Communication is a two way street. The hurting spouse may very well discover that once communication is open, there's a reason why the other spouse doesn't want sex. "It hurts. It feels one sided. I don't feel connected to you when we have sex. I need more foreplay." Once that kind of communication is open, the couple can explore why.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

pjp said:


> [it's] not just the lack of sex its the fact that she isnt making any effort, what does that say about me and her?


It says that you both need to work on communication. She needs to know that this isn't about sex, at least not in terms of getting naked and having sex. It's about wanting to feel wanted, desired, loved, and intimate. Sex is a big part of that. She needs to know that the deal breaker here is not sex. The deal breaker is a lack of communication and loving persistant effort to make the situation better. 

My wife and I are having sex twice a month on average. Thankfully she does enjoy it more now than she used to. I think that part of what got us to where we are now, from the dry spells and hurt, was lovingly encouraging her. I would encourage her by telling her after sex that I love her and really appreciated the chance to reconnect with her. I would ask her what I could do to make sex more enjoyable for her. I would tell her when I was feeling disconnected from her and let her know that I needed time to connect with her. I got massage candles and would put lotion on her. Sometimes we'd have sex, and other times we wouldn't. What was important was that we created opportunities for sex and gave sex a chance to happen. We discovered that we can't wait until bedtime after the kids are asleep to have sex, because we're both exhausted. She can't have sex when she's exhausted, but I can  So we had date nights, dropped off the kids with the grandparents, and worked on it together. I didn't just get a commitment from her to make things better and then wait for her to follow through. I was proactive by creating opportunities for her to follow through.

I know you are hurting. I have been there. All I can suggest is loving and patient persistance and constant communication.

All the best


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I'm not a fan of ultimatums either, but when you break down his issue, it's basically he needs more sex from the marriage and he has tried to talk this issue over with her. At some point, yeah, you need to lay it out on the table.


The problem is, if you don't at some point near the end break down and give the ultimatum then the first reaction when she's served divorce papers is "why didn't you tell me it was so serious? I knew we were having problems but you didn't tell me it was THIS serious".


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> "I am so lonely that I don't know if I can stay in this marriage. I love you and want so badly to make this marriage work, but I am lost and afraid. Please work on this with me."


Um, that right there is an ultimatum. Yes, you sugar coated it, but it's an ultimatum. Put out or get out.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Um, that right there is an ultimatum. Yes, you sugar coated it, but it's an ultimatum. Put out or get out.


I don't see how you connect the dots between letting a spouse know the marriage is in trouble and demanding sex, especially in light of your previous post. "Please work on this with me" opens the door to exploring any number of different solutions to the problem. Any number of which may not involve sex but bring a couple closer together.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

"I don't know if I can stay in this marriage" is passive aggressive "nice guy" speak for I'm going to leave if you don't do xyz. It sounds like an ultimatum to me.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> I don't see how you connect the dots between letting a spouse know the marriage is in trouble and demanding sex, especially in light of your previous post. "Please work on this with me" opens the door to exploring any number of different solutions to the problem. Any number of which may not involve sex but bring a couple closer together.


Really? Have you read ANY of the OP's post? 

Are you in a sexless marriage? It kinda seems like it.

Sex is like oxygen, it doesn't really matter unless you're the one not getting any.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> "I don't know if I can stay in this marriage" is passive aggressive "nice guy" speak for I'm going to leave if you don't do xyz. It sounds like an ultimatum to me.


Okay, I can see where you're coming from. I'll edit the post to leave that bit out.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

Sbrown said:


> Really? Have you read ANY of the OP's post?
> 
> Are you in a sexless marriage? It kinda seems like it.
> 
> Sex is like oxygen, it doesn't really matter unless you're the one not getting any.


I read every post in this thread before replying.
I replied to the OP that in my marriage we're at twice a month. 
Being in a sexless marriage does give me some insight into how to work on the problem (IMHO). I don't see how someone who's never been in one can empathise.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> An ultimatum of any sort is, in essence, saying "What I want is more important than anything that you may think, feel, or have to say about this situation." It is not communication. It isn't going to accomplish anything other than possibly grudging sex.


Sorry, but I can't agree with this. It is not saying my needs outweigh yours. It is saying 'this is what i need to stay here. If you don't need it, that's fine, but I do.' 

It's like having your pay cut back at work over time to the point you have trouble making ends meet. If you go to your employer and say 'I need a raise or I'm leaving,' you're not putting your needs ahead of your employer, you are stating the fact that you need to be paid more or things just don't work for you. And that's the truth.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If you say "I NEED a raise" and actually mean the word NEED, then the "or I'm leaving" is implied. The fact is, if you actually need it, then you have no choice but to leave if you don't get it. If you say you need a raise, but actually mean that you want a raise, that will evident by the fact that you stay. That's kind of the problem here. OP tells his wife a hundred times that he needs sex. But his actions tell her that he actually meant that he wants sex. Because if he needs it and doesn't get it, then he has to get it elsewhere by definition, otherwise it's not really a need.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> It's like having your pay cut back at work over time to the point you have trouble making ends meet. If you go to your employer and say 'I need a raise or I'm leaving,' you're not putting your needs ahead of your employer, you are stating the fact that you need to be paid more or things just don't work for you. And that's the truth.


I don't follow your reasoning. Are you comparing marriage (a union) to a job (work for hire)? That's the nature of the employer / employee relationship. It's implied. Our contract is that they pay for work performed. If the pay isn't satisfactory then it's expected that I will be opportunistic and take a better paying job. Business is business.

Having said that, I've worked for small business my entire life. There have been times when I know that work is slow and they simply can't afford to pay me more. I have stayed and put in the hard work necessary to make the company profitable. I was lucky in those cases because i could live on the reduced pay. If I couldn't, then everyone would expect me to put my needs before the needs of the company.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That's kind of the problem here. OP tells his wife a hundred times that he needs sex. But his actions tell her that he actually meant that he wants sex. Because if he needs it and doesn't get it, then he has to get it elsewhere by definition, otherwise it's not really a need.


The premise of my position is that the need for sex is not just a need for more time with tab P in slot V. It is a need for a lot of things that can be provided in many ways. There may very well be people for whom the physical act is all that they want. That hasn't been my personal experience. In my experience a combination of less frequent physical intimacy and more frequent emotional intimacy is a balance that works. It won't work for everyone, nor should it. 

My point is that by understanding the big picture of what sex does provide, one can seek to find the balance. I also believe that by working to discover the barriers to sex and intimacy and work on them together, the quality of sex and possibly the frequency can be improved. None of that is possible with ultimatums. 

If every avenue has been exhausted and a spouse still has no interest in improving the couple's intimate life, no ultimatum is going to fix it.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

What would she say if you bought a vibrator and used it on her?
Maybe she isn't getting off?? Maybe if she did she would start to be more interested??


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> I don't follow your reasoning. Are you comparing marriage (a union) to a job (work for hire)? That's the nature of the employer / employee relationship. It's implied. Our contract is that they pay for work performed. If the pay isn't satisfactory then it's expected that I will be opportunistic and take a better paying job. Business is business.
> 
> Having said that, I've worked for small business my entire life. There have been times when I know that work is slow and they simply can't afford to pay me more. I have stayed and put in the hard work necessary to make the company profitable. I was lucky in those cases because i could live on the reduced pay. If I couldn't, then everyone would expect me to put my needs before the needs of the company.


You can term it however you want, union or work for hire. Both are in essence an agreement between two people to meet certain needs. In a job, you meet a specific set of needs (usually provided in a job description). In a marriage, those needs aren't so clearly defined, but you still are supposed to be meeting the needs of your spouse.

For me, if I get involved in a relationship with someone, I think it is implied that I have certain needs which must be met. We may have a need for security, housing, children, etc. What our needs are change from person to person, but they are our NEEDS.

As the OP has stated, he has a NEED for sex. It's not a want. It's not like a treat once in a while that he doesn't really care if he gets it or not, it's a clearly specified need. Now, how he explained that it was a need prior to marriage might have been better handled (I don't know, he didn't elaborate on that) but bottom line is, it is a need. 

In a job, if you aren't fulfilling a need of a company, you'll get talked to, you'll get even warned, but eventually it's going to come down to a standard 'if you can't do this job, someone else will' comment and you'll get fired. The same thing here. He's talked to his wife, he's explained himself, he's indicated this is important to him. At some point, yes, it's going to boil down to two choices: A) Live with it, or B) 'if you can't do this job, someone else will'. 

I'm not trying to be cold about it here, but it's not like he's never told her there is a problem before and is blindsiding her. He's explained the issue many times, and nothing comes of it. Do you expect him to just keep talking about it foreveer with a wife who is acting like a wall? At some point you either fish or cut bait, and it sounds like he's pretty close to that point, so yes, I'd understand if he did just lay an ultimatum on the table.

As for your scenario, it is as you said 'i could live on the reduced pay. If I couldn't, then everyone would expect me to put my needs before the needs of the company' He can't live on the reduced sex it seems. And that's fine, it's his life. So he's putting his needs before her needs.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> The premise of my position is that the need for sex is not just a need for more time with tab P in slot V. It is a need for a lot of things that can be provided in many ways. There may very well be people for whom the physical act is all that they want. That hasn't been my personal experience. In my experience a combination of less frequent physical intimacy and more frequent emotional intimacy is a balance that works. It won't work for everyone, nor should it.
> 
> My point is that by understanding the big picture of what sex does provide, one can seek to find the balance. I also believe that by working to discover the barriers to sex and intimacy and work on them together, the quality of sex and possibly the frequency can be improved. None of that is possible with ultimatums.
> 
> If every avenue has been exhausted and a spouse still has no interest in improving the couple's intimate life, no ultimatum is going to fix it.


Ever seen that show on interventions?

Same principal. People have tried to help their loved one with their drinking/gambling/drug/etc. issues in many ways, and finally they get into an intervention circle and lay it out on the line; shape up, or we're leaving your life. That is like several ultimatums in one.

Same deal here. He's giving her one last chance to help fix this problem. It's not an ultimatum of 'give me more sex' it's an ultimatum of 'We have a problem with our sex life that I can't totlerate anymore. Either you help me fix this, or I'm leaving your life.'

Maybe she just needs to be scared straight so to speak. Ultimatums do work in the proper context.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Have you tried just taking her? When she says she's not in the mood tell her you don't give a sh!t (use those exact words) and kiss her... hard.

Might get you thrown in jail but then again... might not.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

sandc said:


> Have you tried just taking her? When she says she's not in the mood tell her you don't give a sh!t (use those exact words) and kiss her... hard.
> 
> Might get you thrown in jail but then again... might not.


I have done this. She pushes me away. I keep going back. Eventually she gives in. We end up making love. It is usually very passionate. She thanks me for 'forcing' her to do it.

This works for a while. In the end, this doesn't meet my needs. I need to be desired. To be cared about. If she loved me and cared about my needs and desired me, then I shouldn't have to force myself on her. It tells me that she loved the sex, but she doesn't love ME


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

sandc said:


> Have you tried just taking her? When she says she's not in the mood tell her you don't give a sh!t (use those exact words) and kiss her... hard.
> 
> Might get you thrown in jail but then again... might not.


Well that will certainly push her decision point. She'll either react very badly (which will get you dumped or put in jail) or she'll react very positively (which will get her following you around like a puppy). Yes. I like this plan. Please report back. Unless you're in jail and have to call collect.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I have done this. She pushes me away. I keep going back. Eventually she gives in. We end up making love. It is usually very passionate. She thanks me for 'forcing' her to do it.
> 
> This works for a while. In the end, this doesn't meet my needs. I need to be desired. To be cared about. If she loved me and cared about my needs and desired me, then I shouldn't have to force myself on her. It tells me that she loved the sex, but she doesn't love ME


But this is how my wife is. She is a very loving woman but she just "can't" initiate. She is very uncomfortable doing so. She is very appreciative when I initiate. It's just how she is.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Well that will certainly push her decision point. She'll either react very badly (which will get you dumped or put in jail) or she'll react very positively (which will get her following you around like a puppy). Yes. I like this plan. Please report back. Unless you're in jail and have to call collect.


Hasn't landed me in jail... yet.



But I'm working on it.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

My wife has no sex drive and sex never even crosses her mind. if it was up to her we'f have sex about 10 times a year. it will never improve and that is heartbreaking
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

it isnt just about the sex it is about being wanted in that sort of way, like a lot of you have said i think we all need to be desired, i am at breaking point as this has been going on for far to long, as for me pleasing her that isnt a problem but she thinks us having a cuddle will do, i cannot continue with this as it is making me a very unhappy person, so i am taking some of your advice and changing what i am and who i am.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pplwatching said:


> An ultimatum of any sort is, in essence, saying "What I want is more important than anything that you may think, feel, or have to say about this situation." It is not communication. It isn't going to accomplish anything other than possibly grudging sex.
> 
> Likewise, a spouse can't say "We need marriage counselling so you'll agree to have sex with me." The other spouse just hears "You're wrong and let's get someone else to tell you you're wrong." If on the other hand a spouse says, "I am lonely. I miss you. I miss feeling connected to you and being intimate with you. I think this has the potential to break up our marriage. I would like to go to marriage counselling to learn how to reconnect with you and have a better marriage with you.", then the cards are on the table and expressed in a way that encourages the other spouse to be a part of the solution. A spouse ignores those kinds of statements at their own peril.
> 
> ...


I disagree that an ultimatum is inappropriate. I also disagree that an ultimatum is a proclomation that "what I want is supreme"; it is simply a demand for action. I do agree that the ultimatum should not demand sex specifically.

The issue here is not lack of communication. The OP's wife has communicated _very clearly_ that she does not view marriage (or at least this marriage) as a two-way street. She sees this marriage as one where he serves her and any kids they have.

It is this view held by the OP's wife that is the root problem. Expecting others to tolerate imbalance is strange, and perhaps even clinically antisocial (in my admittedly amateur opinion). IMO, when you encounter a person to whom you don't feel particularly close, you limit contact. You don't take advantage of that person.

So, if this were me I would demand change (but not directly sexually). I would say "you do not see my needs as equally important to yours; in fact, you have communicated clearly your expectation that I serve you and get out of the way.

Our marriage is in serious trouble, owing to your behaviors which I feel are founded in this mindset. I will not tolerate this over the long term, and I feel strongly that our children's exposure to this mindset should be minimized.

I insist that we get MC to help us understand each other's needs and set a new paradigm for this marriage going forward. I also insist that you get some serious IC to understand the nature of your thought process and why it is harmful.

This is not just about sex; it is about respecting me as a fellow human being with the same rights as you. I am not asking that you prioritize me over yourself on a consistent basis, but I will insist that you put the same energy into my needs as your own.

For this marriage to survive, you need to acknowledge that I am as worthy as you of the resources (time, money, energy) that this family has to offer. Also, given that each of our needs might not resonate with the other, we need to presume each other's needs are valid and fulfill them with equal diligence."

I have studied behavior formally in some detail and have lived through this myself. I agree that fear of consequence does not generate the emotional "buy-in" needed to drive lasting change. That is why the demand is for professional counseling. This woman needs help to figure out why her behavior is harmful (although it seems gratifying).

Then, after understanding that, she can make a decision whether to engage her husband as an equal. Of course, there is always the chance she won't go to counseling, won't take it seriously, or will eventually decide she would rather be alone than put in the hard work to maintain a successful relationship. But unless her mindset changes, this marriage is doomed.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pplwatching said:


> I don't see how you connect the dots between letting a spouse know the marriage is in trouble and demanding sex, especially in light of your previous post. "Please work on this with me" opens the door to exploring any number of different solutions to the problem. Any number of which may not involve sex but bring a couple closer together.


This qualifies for the rarely-granted "mega-fail" <cue the echo> tag.

I'll be blunt. This is just another way of saying "sex is not really the problem". People who don't value sex or don't know what it's like to go without often throw out "you're trying to medicate with sex", "you don't need more sex to have a good marriage", "only a jerk would end a marriage over sex" or something similar. Basically, it's just crap.

Sure there are some people who do those things. But IMO that is rare. For most people, there is simply not enough sex to be happy, because sex is the core need. A solution that does not involve sex is simply not a solution. Strengthening the marriage in other areas is pointless.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Kind of agree with that. My wife's three basic needs in order would be food, shelter, security. Mine would be food, sex, shelter. Our brains are just wired for different things.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

well tonight is the night, the big discussion is going to happen, wish me luck,


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pjp said:


> well tonight is the night, the big discussion is going to happen, wish me luck,


Good luck, and make sure you do three things.

1) State your position and make it clear how important this is to you.

2) Listen and accept what she's telling you. You might have to hear some hard truths (you're not attractive to her, her attraction is platonic only).

3) Keep your cool.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

hi there, sorry for not replying earlier, i have had a number of talks with my wife over the last few days and unfortunately she thinks its me with the problem! all i want is a bit more passion in our relationship, we have a good family life and that is all my wife is interested in but as a couple there is a big lack of passion and desire (on my wifes part that is), she is more than happy with sex once a month and that sex is very boring, but the situation is driving me crackers! i love my wife dearly but i feel like life is passing me by, its sounds strange but i would rather not have sex at all instead of boring sex once a month! i have now said that i dont think i can carry on with our relationship in its current state, and the atmosphere between us is very frosty,


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

You cannot force someone to have passion for you by giving them an ultimatum. There is a breakdown in the marriage somewhere and this is why she is not wanting sex.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i agree but i cannot do anymore, i give and do everything, and my wife says she is very happy with her life and our family life, she might be happy but i am not, she refuses councelling of any type, what more can i do?


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Tell her she either agrees to MC or you have to separate. There is no other option now if this is a deal breaker for you.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

Am i wrong if this is a deal breaker? I think its a major problem if one partner isnt even trying to help the situation, also she will not do any type of councelling as i have tried to get her to go numerous times and she says that if we ever have to go down the councelling route then she thinks the marrage is over so there would be no point!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You are not wrong.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Sbrown said:


> I couldn't live with a women that didn't want to be with me. I came to TAM to figure out why my wife and I didn't have sex. I am a natural Beta (raised by a single mom for years that preached the "nice guy" idea) I started reading "Married Man Sex Life primer" and realized I was being Beta. Have since become more Alpha and my wife's drive went UP.
> 
> But if your wife is "happy the way it is" I'm guessing that she is just not attracted to you. That could be because of being to Beta, It could be that there is OM, any other red flags? It could be that you are a meal ticket. Does she masturbate?


Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. In fact on my off day today I'm doing the dishes, washing 3 loads of clothes, sweeping, folding those clothes, cutting the grass, doing homework with the kids, cooking dinner, and after I will bang the hell out of my wife!!!

Nice guy and crazy sex is the winning combination. Nice guy and vanilla sex is a recipe for disaster.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i am a nice guy but i am still the families backbone, my wife says she loves me with all her heart, our family life is great but our bedroom activities are pretty much none existent and boring, her idea of trying is we do it twice in a week and then nothing for the next three.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

You have reached a stalemate. Only make an ultimatum if you are prepared to stand by it.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

pjp said:


> i am a nice guy but i am still the families backbone, my wife says she loves me with all her heart, our family life is great but our bedroom activities are pretty much none existent and boring, her idea of trying is we do it twice in a week and then nothing for the next three.


How old are you guys? My wife and I are almost 40 and to be honest 2-3 times a week is fine especially if 1 of them is ultra freaky.

I just don't need any more at this age, but we are all different. It's funny when I was 20 I did dates, go shopping together etc, because I knew where it would get me. Now I really do enjoy just spending time with her and am perfectly fine if it doesn't end in a romp fest.

I suppose many other couples feel the same after 20 years. 

1) Do you guys talk about sex? Not just having it but have some wine or whatever you prefer and talk about needs etc? What turns you on and all of that.

2) Have you talked to her and told her how sex makes you feel close to her? How that is so important to you?

3) Have you asked her to be gutwrenchingly honest with you about sex? My wife and I had this conversation a few times over the years. During one time period I was really into toys the latest and greatest it was like new toy a week. She said "Does it always have to feel like we are shooting a porno?" 12-14 years ago it was the opposite I was happy with a quicky, was working 60hr/wk on a project and being selfish and she said "You are boring sometimes"

So, be prepared for the hard answers if they come. 

I'm a big advocate of to the heart no hold barred communication vs games like NMMNG. If you and your wife dig deep enough you will find the answer.

Lastly, if you guys are older is menopause around? That can cause the sex drive to go way the hell down!!


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i am 45 and my wife is 41, we used to talk about sex and everything but my wife cuts any conversation very short if i try these days, on the odd occasion we do have sex its in bed with the lights out, i am not saying i want it every night but twice a week would be very nice and to have it a bit more passionate,


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

pjp said:


> i am 45 and my wife is 41, we used to talk about sex and everything but my wife cuts any conversation very short if i try these days, *on the odd occasion we do have sex its in bed with the lights out, *i am not saying i want it every night but twice a week would be very nice and to have it a bit more passionate,


There might be some insecurity there? All I can tell you man is keep on talking there is a reason and you guys have obviously not gotten to the root yet. 

I promise once ya'll do it will be better!!


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Agreed. I never ever understand why 1 partner completely poo-poos the idea of MC, especially if the other has serious concerns and wants to go.


Give you the answer...

They don't want to be told their behavior is unacceptable.

They have issues.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

STOP DOING CHORES AROUND THE HOUSE! SHE WILL NOT CHANGE BECUASE SHE DOESN'T FEEL SHE HAS TO. She doesn't respect you and thinks you'll stay no matter what! It's time to start the 180! And demand respect with actions not words!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

thanks everyone for replying, i have stopped doing so much but its very difficult as we have two children (two girls aged 15 and 3) i have tried to talk loads of times, i have tried to get my wife to relax in a number of ways but with no outcome, i spoke to my wife again and in the end i said if you value our marraige then counselling is a necessity not a "i will not go or even think about it" her answer was still a flat no, my biggest concern now are my two daughters.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Your biggest concern should be the 180. Distance yourself from her. Focus on your two daughters and improving yourself. You are married to a woman that does not respect you. "Married man sex life" is the self improvement book you need NOW. It is time to make her feel the repercussions of her decisions. If it where me she would not have access to my paycheck any longer. If she was on my cell phone plan her phone would be turned off. I would Cancel ALL joint credit cards. But that's just me. Make appointments with attorneys and go find out what you need to do. She may try to kick you out of the marital home. DO NOT MOVE OUT FOR ANY REASON! It's time to call her bluff! It's time to man up! If you're not a member of a gym it's time to start join one and hit it hard!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

what i dont want though is to make the atmosphere in the house really bad and have a detrimental effect on my daughters, whatever i do it will be wrong but something has to change or i think i will end up in a mental institute,


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

pjp said:


> thanks everyone for replying, i have stopped doing so much but its very difficult as we have two children (two girls aged 15 and 3) i have tried to talk loads of times, i have tried to get my wife to relax in a number of ways but with no outcome, i spoke to my wife again and in the end i said if you value our marraige then counselling is a necessity not a "i will not go or even think about it" her answer was still a flat no, my biggest concern now are my two daughters.


One things that can help is aligning your actions with your words. I suspect that every time you have had this, you then went out and did all the same nice things for your wife that you have always done. So she hears that this is an issue, but your actions say it really is not. Since actions tend to speak louder than words (and being human, she may well listen to the message that says things are okay), she assumes you don't really mean it.

So with that in mind, act like things are not fine. This means going out and doing things on your own after you have spent time with the kids (hitting the gym or doibng trivia night with you friends). Make sure you handle your basic chores, but then do things that bring you joy and do not involve her. Don't do nice things for her (flowers, gifts, etc.). 

This next part is key: if she asks what is going on, be honest with her. Tell her in a polite tone that since she is not interested in meeting your needs, you are now handling it and have less time to meet her needs. Don't be rude or nasty, but do communicate your issue - no passive aggressive crap. She needs to know that you really are not fine with what is going on.

I don't see whether you two ever had what you would consider a good sex life. Assuming you did in the beginning, I would suggest taking up some activities and attitudes you had back then. If you loved basketball, for example, go find a pick-up rec league as your hobby. Get back more to that guy that you almost certainly liked being and that she liked enough to marry and sleep with.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

pjp said:


> what i dont want though is to make the atmosphere in the house really bad and have a detrimental effect on my daughters, whatever i do it will be wrong but something has to change or i think i will end up in a mental institute,


Realize that you and your wife are teaching your daughters about marriage. They are picking up their cues on how their marriage should be, including how they deal with conflict, how they should be treated and how they should treat their husband.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

pjp said:


> what i dont want though is to make the atmosphere in the house really bad and have a detrimental effect on my daughters, whatever i do it will be wrong but something has to change or i think i will end up in a mental institute,


Do you think they are in a good atmosphere now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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