# Forgiveness - Tips for Getting There



## SecondTime'Round

I have a long and complex story, but I'm separating, for good, from my ex in a month when I can move into a new house. We divorced in 2010 and reconciled last spring. He's destroying our family yet again.

I did finally come to a place of forgiving him in 2013, and I LOVED that feeling, finally. It was genuine and SO freeing. Unfortunately it opened the door for him to come back in and I was tricked.

I want so badly to come to a place of forgiveness again, not for him, but for me, but I know I'm a long way off this time around. I know it will eventually come though. 

If you've been successful in forgiving and moving on, or if you are working toward forgiveness, is there any advice you can give for what works?

I'm a Christian so I do try to look at my ex through God's eyes and God's love. But I'm not God. I'm not perfect. Today I started hand writing/copying the book of Ephesians, replacing all of the "our" words and specific names with "me" and "my" to make it more personal (my sister's suggestion, for my own healing/self esteem). While doing it, I was wondering if there would be a benefit in doing that same exercise and replacing my ex's name in there. Would it soften my heart and let forgiveness in? (Even if he never asks for it, which he probably will not). 

Just looking for ideas. I don't like carrying bitterness and resentment in my heart, but it's firmly grounded there right now .


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## Baseballmom6

I wish I had advice for you and could say I have forgiven my Ex. I think I'm closer but just not there yet.


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## Pluto2

Every time I "forgave" me ex, he used and abused that gift. 

Indifference is better. No more hatred, but no forgetting the person he really is.


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## ConanHub

Forgiveness is spoken of as a position of strength. It is always referred to in the sense of a more powerful person forgiving a weaker person. 

Work on yourself and be good to yourself and others. Take time to heal and it will become easier to forgive.

When you are still hurt and lying in the dust with the person who hurt you still standing over you, it is very hard to forgive from that position.

Take time, get strong, stay away from intimate relationships and concentrate on your friends. Enjoy church and exercise and eat well.

Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never stop loving Mrs. Conan and forgive her quickly, but there are some things she could do that would make it impossible for me to be married to her anymore.

Very sorry for the pain in your heart and soul.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

I'm not a Christian so I'll give my perspective with that in mind. I've always found it helpful to remember that it's not personal, and your ex would've done the same thing to someone else. It's their character flaw. ...my ex is a nasty guy and is nasty to women in general, not just me. 

And to the extent you put up with it and allowed poor treatment own it, the victim chair has no power whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harrybrown

Does not sound like he is acting remorseful from some of your other posts.

I try to decrease the amount of time spent interacting with her, and give less time in my mind. I spend more time thinking about the kids and grandkids. I try to communicate less and shut down when she is pushing my buttons. 

This is not forgiveness, but I am trying to see if she can have less of an impact on me. Because sometimes my anger is off the charts. 

You sound like a better person than I am. I am still working on controlling my anger. when I focus on other things that helps and i try to do more for the kids and work on me. If I feel better about myself, then she can't push my buttons as easily. 

when you do find out a good way, please post it for some of us. Then when some of us make more progress, we can consider following your path.


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## SecondTime'Round

harrybrown said:


> Does not sound like he is acting remorseful from some of your other posts.
> 
> I try to decrease the amount of time spent interacting with her, and give less time in my mind. I spend more time thinking about the kids and grandkids. I try to communicate less and shut down when she is pushing my buttons.
> 
> This is not forgiveness, but I am trying to see if she can have less of an impact on me. Because sometimes my anger is off the charts.
> 
> You sound like a better person than I am. I am still working on controlling my anger. when I focus on other things that helps and i try to do more for the kids and work on me. If I feel better about myself, then she can't push my buttons as easily.
> 
> when you do find out a good way, please post it for some of us. Then when some of us make more progress, we can consider following your path.


No, he isn't remorseful at all. I don't know if he will be after I move out, really not sure. (It would be artificial, though, in my opinion, just to try to make things more peaceful between us). He was remorseful the last time, but this time around, he's very, very, arrogant about the whole thing.

Right now he's so angry at me and treating me as if I'M the one who wronged him, it is bizarre. I told my sister last night I think the reason he's so nasty to me is to justify his own behavior in his brain. "If I treat her as if she's done something wrong, then she must have done something wrong, so I'm justified in doing what I've done/what I'm doing."


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## ConanHub

It is because you had sex with other men but he was having sex with other women so a bit confusing.

I'm sure he has refused counseling to get to the root?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

ConanHub said:


> It is because you had sex with other men but he was having sex with other women so a bit confusing.
> 
> I'm sure he has refused counseling to get to the root?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, he's actually in counseling, but they focus mostly on his newly (loosely) diagnosed ADHD, since that what's he's blaming this all on. I really think he and his counselor are barking up the wrong tree, and way more focus needs to be on his childhood/mommy issues, but I'm not a therapist! He probably won't even deal with his mommy issues until she is no longer living. Maybe not even then.


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## ConanHub

SecondTime'Round said:


> No, he's actually in counseling, but they focus mostly on his newly (loosely) diagnosed ADHD, since that what's he's blaming this all on. I really think he and his counselor are barking up the wrong tree, and way more focus needs to be on his childhood/mommy issues, but I'm not a therapist! He probably won't even deal with his mommy issues until she is no longer living. Maybe not even then.


It is ridiculous to blame his anger about different sex buddies on ADHD.

Too bad they aren't focusing there.

Regardless, he should not have had sex with anyone else if he wanted to repair it with you.

For most, it is a deal breaker whether they realize it or not, for all, it is a painful complication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

ConanHub said:


> It is ridiculous to blame his anger about different sex buddies on ADHD.
> 
> Too bad they aren't focusing there.
> 
> Regardless, he should not have had sex with anyone else if he wanted to repair it with you.
> 
> For most, it is a deal breaker whether they realize it or not, for all, it is a painful complication.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He doesn't blame his anger toward me dating/having sex with other people after our divorce on the ADHD. He just thinks he's justified in being angry/having retrograde jealousy I think. (I wish I'd known he felt that way when we reconciled and bought a house.)

He blames all of his terrible decisions HE has made on his ADHD.


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## Openminded

After my divorce, I was determined to forgive my ex-husband but only because it benefitted me to do that. I was tired of the anger and bitterness I was carrying around. But that didn't mean I ever forgot what he was capable of. Your mistake obviously was to R with your ex-husband after you forgave him. Those are two very separate things. There is no possibility on earth I would R again with my ex-husband but I have allowed him in my life as a distant friend. I see him occasionally at family functions. I enjoy his company when I do (and enjoy most of all leaving him behind when I leave) but he will never again be allowed in my heart. What's done is done. That's what I aimed for and I'm grateful I got it.


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## SecondTime'Round

Openminded said:


> After my divorce, I was determined to forgive my ex-husband but only because it benefitted me to do that. I was tired of the anger and bitterness I was carrying around. But that didn't mean I ever forgot what he was capable of. *Your mistake obviously was to R with your ex-husband after you forgave him. Those are two very separate things.* There is no possibility on earth I would R again with my ex-husband but I have allowed him in my life as a distant friend. I see him occasionally at family functions. I enjoy his company when I do (and enjoy most of all leaving him behind when I leave) but he will never again be allowed in my heart. What's done is done. That's what I aimed for and I'm grateful I got it.


This is 100% correct.


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## EnjoliWoman

Pluto2 said:


> Every time I "forgave" me ex, he used and abused that gift.
> 
> Indifference is better. No more hatred, but no forgetting the person he really is.


:iagree: This. Well, for me. I was confused for a very long time, but after his diagnosis I can see exactly why he is the way he is. It doesn't excuse his behavior, he doesn't get a free pass and I don't forgive him. Instead I now understand it wasn't personal, he won't/can't change and he'll never come around, therefore he'll never be worthy of forgiveness. 

Instead I refuse to engage; I deal with him when I need to in a cool, polite manner and I'm indifferent. What he did to me wasn't OK and I won't forgive him - not 'for me' or him. To me, forgiving him is almost validation of his PD being an excuse. It's not. He knew what he did and he could have controlled himself (and did in public). He doesn't deserve to be absolved of his guilt. But I don't have to be bitter, either.

I'm content with that.


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## Nomorebeans

I'm nowhere near forgiveness, either, especially since my STBX shows absolutely no remorse for his ongoing affair whatsoever. I'm not sure I'll ever get there.

But my son said something a little while back about how he felt about his Dad leaving that I keep going back to: "I didn't think about anything else for a while. But then I realized there's nothing I can do to change it, so I just had to let it go."

Maybe getting to a place where we believe these words ourselves is close enough.


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## Pluto2

Is forgiveness appropriate for the unremorseful?


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## SecondTime'Round

Pluto2 said:


> Is forgiveness appropriate for the unremorseful?


Everyone has different feelings about this, of course. I don't see it as being appropriate or inappropriate for the unremorseful. I don't think it has anything to do with him at all. It has to do with me and me being able to move on in a completely healthy way.

I call it forgiveness. Some call it indifference. To me, it's a combination of both.

I just know that I have experienced it in the past, and know how freed I felt from it. I will need that again if I'm ever going to heal and move on.


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## Ynot

Forgiveness isn't really directed at the one being forgiven as much as it is directed towards ourselves. Whatever they choose to do with the gift of forgiveness is on them. In all likelihood they will fritter it away just as they did with the previous gift of love that was given. Regardless, forgiveness is something we do for ourselves and not for any one else. 
I say this as someone who is currently struggling to forgive. I know the burden of resentment is not something I want as part of my life for the rest of my life. Forgiving someone who hurt you is tough, but the alternative is resentment, anger, bitterness or hate.
I think that ultimately forgiveness is the highest form of self love.


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## Openminded

Exactly. I couldn't have cared less what my ex-husband thought about my forgiving him. I cared about me. I don't like being angry or bitter or resentful or filled with hate and that's how I felt about him when I decided to get out. Once the divorce was final, I wanted to be rid of all of that. And that's why I forgave him. Yes, he's very grateful that I did but I don't care if he is or isn't because ultimately it has nothing to do with him. It's about me and how I want to live my life. Happy to be free from the burden of negative emotions.


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## lifeistooshort

Perhaps it's more acceptance than forgiveness that should be the goal for some.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

Openminded said:


> Exactly. I couldn't have cared less what my ex-husband thought about my forgiving him. I cared about me. I don't like being angry or bitter or resentful or filled with hate and that's how I felt about him when I decided to get out. Once the divorce was final, I wanted to be rid of all of that. *And that's why I forgave him. *Yes, he's very grateful that I did but I don't care if he is or isn't because ultimately it has nothing to do with him. It's about me and how I want to live my life. Happy to be free from the burden of negative emotions.


Is there anything in particular you think helped you get there?


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## Openminded

Determination is the only thing I can think of, really. I wanted so much to be free of all that hate. I literally didn't feel good and I wanted that to go away. 

My goal in the divorce was to be at peace with my life and I couldn't do that as long as I was filled with hate. I journaled a lot and I also made a list of how I wanted my life to be going forward and I told myself every day that I deserved a better life and that I would have it. 

I am not normally an optimist but the power of positive thinking definitely worked for me this time.


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## Nomorebeans

Openminded said:


> Determination is the only thing I can think of, really. I wanted so much to be free of all that hate. I literally didn't feel good and I wanted that to go away.
> 
> My goal in the divorce was to be at peace with my life and I couldn't do that as long as I was filled with hate. I journaled a lot and I also made a list of how I wanted my life to be going forward and I told myself every day that I deserved a better life and that I would have it.
> 
> I am not normally an optimist but the power of positive thinking definitely worked for me this time.


This is excellent advice. I went to bed last night after a particularly hard "two steps back" day, and to calm myself, I kept thinking of my son's words over and over: "There is nothing I can do to change this. I just have to let it go."

I woke up this morning feeling like a big piece of the pain had been extracted in my sleep. My shoulders felt relaxed and light, and the heaviness I'd felt in the center of my body all week prior was gone.

I also like the line in the P!nk song that says "Change the voices in your head - make them like you instead." I've been working on this on my daily walks. The voice in my head was very angry towards him, and sometimes even blaming of myself, for a long time. I started consciously making it speak to me as if it is someone who loves me unconditionally instead. What would a true friend who loves me say? And that's all it says now. The next thing is to train it to tell me I should forgive him for my own sake.


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## SecondTime'Round

Nomorebeans said:


> This is excellent advice. I went to bed last night after a particularly hard "two steps back" day, and to calm myself, I kept thinking of my son's words over and over: "There is nothing I can do to change this. I just have to let it go."
> 
> I woke up this morning feeling like a big piece of the pain had been extracted in my sleep. My shoulders felt relaxed and light, and the heaviness I'd felt in the center of my body all week prior was gone.
> 
> I also like the line in the P!nk song that says "Change the voices in your head - make them like you instead." I've been working on this on my daily walks. The voice in my head was very angry towards him, and sometimes even blaming of myself, for a long time. *I started consciously making it speak to me as if it is someone who loves me unconditionally instead. What would a true friend who loves me say? And that's all it says now.* The next thing is to train it to tell me I should forgive him for my own sake.


I really like this.  I hate weekends because we're both at the house and around each other more and I find myself literally hiding from him because of how grotesque he finds my body. I hate constantly thinking "I bet he thinks I look so fat in this T-shirt," etc. I really need to think more about rational people like my counselor who told me she was distracted during one of our sessions because of how beautiful she thinks I am. (She is married....was not hitting on me....this was in response to me telling her how gross and disgusting and unattractive he thinks I am). 

I really need to change the voice inside my head to be my BFF not my jackass STBX.


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## Openminded

Both of you are on the right path and have the right thinking. And don't worry if it doesn't work every day (it didn't for me). When that happened, I told myself that tomorrow would be a better day. Sometimes it took two or three days (or more) to get back on track but I did and the two of you will too. 

It's a long, hard road but one day you'll look back and shake your head that you gave that much thought to someone who didn't deserve it (I do that all the time).


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## philglossop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4-9ccdxO8g

Good song- especially the part about revenge!!!!


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## Holland

Ok this is what worked for me but keep in mind there was no cheating. In the end our marriage was sex/passionless on his part. I would still be married to him now if he had of made an effort to sort his sh.t out. Long story.

On to forgiveness, I was desperate for him to acknowledge his role in the demise of our marriage but he is weak as piss and that was never going to happen. It sent me mad for awhile but then I followed some advice from a book I read. I wrote a letter to myself as if he was writing it. It contained the apology I needed and the explanation for why he was the way he was, why it all got so stuffed up. I wrote the words I needed to here. I was never going to get that from him so I did it for myself.

Strange but true it really helped. I let go of the need for an apology and I got on with my life. 5 years down the track and I am blissfully happy with my Superman, a place I never expected to be. I forgave myself, I got some IC and just got on with life.

Life is short STR, you are precious and your life is precious, do not waste it.


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## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> Every time I "forgave" me ex, he used and abused that gift.
> 
> Indifference is better. No more hatred, but no forgetting the person he really is.


This :iagree:

Some people do ****ty things and deserve no forgiveness. If you don't feel it don't force it.

Moving past something isn't the same as forgiveness. I think everyone needs to find a way to move on....but forgiveness is only reserved for those who deserve it


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## Holland

Wolf1974 said:


> This :iagree:
> 
> Some people do ****ty things and deserve no forgiveness. If you don't feel it don't force it.
> 
> Moving past something isn't the same as forgiveness. I think everyone needs to find a way to move on...*.but forgiveness is only reserved for those who deserve it*


Yes and no. Each of us can decide that for themselves but will just throw this in there for consideration..............

we are all the product of what has happened in our lives so far. Forgiveness can come in the form of forgiving them for being who they are, the result of s ****ty upbringing or other things that made them who they are. Not saying you have to forgive the terrible things they have done but if you can find a place to forgive them for being mere mortals then it can help to heal your pain.

Not a verbal forgiveness directly to them but a forgiveness in your own mind. To get to this place is really cathartic.


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## SecondTime'Round

Holland said:


> Ok this is what worked for me but keep in mind there was no cheating. In the end our marriage was sex/passionless on his part. I would still be married to him now if he had of made an effort to sort his sh.t out. Long story.
> 
> On to forgiveness, I was desperate for him to acknowledge his role in the demise of our marriage but he is weak as piss and that was never going to happen. It sent me mad for awhile but then I followed some advice from a book I read. I wrote a letter to myself as if he was writing it. It contained the apology I needed and the explanation for why he was the way he was, why it all got so stuffed up. I wrote the words I needed to here. I was never going to get that from him so I did it for myself.
> 
> Strange but true it really helped. I let go of the need for an apology and I got on with my life. 5 years down the track and I am blissfully happy with my Superman, a place I never expected to be. I forgave myself, I got some IC and just got on with life.
> 
> Life is short STR, you are precious and your life is precious, do not waste it.


This is amazing advice! Thank you very much.

I'm struggling today because I'm not proud of myself for getting into it, again, with STBX last night, via text. I was angry when I saw him leave at dinnertime without telling me if he was going to be eating here, since I had bought food earlier in the day for dinner. I asked my DD, 14, where her dad went and she hemmed and hawed because she hates being put in the middle, of course. I rephrased and said, "OK, did he tell you if he's going to be eating dinner here?" She said "No, he is not." So I texted him (first mistake) and told him that if he was going to be going on a date with lover girl and not here for dinner, please tell ME and not our daughter because she doesn't like being in the middle, and she's also a terrible liar (not that he expects her to lie....he just doesn't care if she knows. She'd only attempt to lie to spare my feelings, which no child should have to do.)

Things escalated from there and we ended up hurling very ugly insults at each other most of the night--through texting. We are toxic. 

I HATE when I lose my temper like this because I feel like it gives him every reason he needs to justify what he's done/what he's doing. I don't want to give him that. So why do I keep doing it? UGH. 

This is exactly why I need to find forgiveness for him. My hurt/resentment/bitterness make me ugly.


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## EnjoliWoman

You need to practice the 180. Don't plan for him, don't fix meals for him. If there are leftovers he can heat up, fine. Cook for you and your daughter. Don't ask her anything - that way even if HE puts her in the middle by giving her info, you don't keep her there by asking.


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## Wolf1974

Holland said:


> Yes and no. Each of us can decide that for themselves but will just throw this in there for consideration..............
> 
> we are all the product of what has happened in our lives so far. Forgiveness can come in the form of forgiving them for being who they are, the result of s ****ty upbringing or other things that made them who they are. Not saying you have to forgive the terrible things they have done but if you can find a place to forgive them for being mere mortals then it can help to heal your pain.
> 
> Not a verbal forgiveness directly to them but a forgiveness in your own mind. To get to this place is really cathartic.


You are certainly entitled to your perspective of it but I have met plenty of people who have done horrible things and I feel no sympathy, kindness, or forgiveness for any of them regardless of what caused them to do anything. Reason being is that plenty of people have ****ty upbringings. But only some of those choose to make the same mistakes. They had the information, know the wrong, know the hurt it will cause, and then they CHOOSE to do it anyway.. That is unforgivable to me. Feel bad they wet through some stuff sure. But still they made the choice to do wrong while others, who also went through bad things, CHOOSE not to. 

What it boils down to for me is are you willing to forgive the choice someone made. Some are forgivable some are not.


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## zillard

I think forgiveness is a process, not a light switch. 

It's changing how you think. Even after you've decided to, and have made progress, you can still trigger and have strong emotions. Trick is to recognize them, identify them, and file them accordingly. 

I try to avoid putting them in the trash though, as for me that reinforces negative self worth - letting the inner critic tell me I should be ashamed of feeling them.

Instead I remind myself that the feeling is natural, so belongs, but finally belongs in the archive! 

Sometimes those fvckers don't stay put though. That's ok. The more good ones I create, the easier it is to multitask. Use a highlighter here on this little peach while slipping the little jumper back where he goes. 

Living with someone who keeps dropping more in your inbox is rough though. It's exhausting. For now, just try to create a positive of your own to counter each one.


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## 2ntnuf

Learn to be grateful for what you have. I think, if you do that, you may find it easier to forgive. You have to address your own demons, big or small, as well. Once those are worked through, you will find it easier to understand. Forgiveness is easier from higher ground. It's sometimes difficult to be forgiving and not be patronizing. It's not easy to forgive. I think it's important for you to forgive, meaning it's good for you. It's tough to forgive someone who doesn't ask to be forgiven and will not do the work to make some sort of amends. It's tough to forgive when others won't forgive you. There are all sorts of angles to this and some won't ever forgive. I hope you find peace.


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## Wolf1974

2ntnuf said:


> Learn to be grateful for what you have. I think, if you do that, you may find it easier to forgive. You have to address your own demons, big or small, as well. Once those are worked through, you will find it easier to understand. Forgiveness is easier from higher ground. It's sometimes difficult to be forgiving and not be patronizing. It's not easy to forgive. I think it's important for you to forgive, meaning it's good for you. It's tough to forgive someone who *doesn't ask to be forgiven* and will not do the work to make some sort of amends. It's tough to forgive when others won't forgive you. There are all sorts of angles to this and some won't ever forgive. I hope you find peace.


well this is very true. My x has never asked to be forgiven. If she did, and was sincere, I could at least forgive the aspect she did to hurt me, never what she did to hurt my children...she has to ask them for forgiveness for that.

Admitting your wrong, hat in hand, taking accountability for your wrongdoing is not an easy thing to do.


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## Nomorebeans

My WS actually asked for forgiveness recently, sort of. We were talking about our son, and I told him that the thing he had told me was most painful about his Dad leaving was that it all seemed to "come out of nowhere" - that he, like me, really didn't see it coming. (How could we, when my WS never once told me that he was unhappy in our marriage over the last two years that he later said he spent thinking about how unhappy he was all the time, and telling all his friends that our marriage was over?) He finally said, "I'm sorry about that. I went about it all wrong, and I'll regret that for the rest of my life. I don't blame you for being mad at me. You should be."

Yes, that was my golden opportunity to say, "I forgive you."

But I wasn't feeling it, so I just didn't say anything (because what I really wanted to say was "You bet your stupid @$$ I'm mad." Or "'Mad' doesn't quite cover it" or "I sure am, and will be for a long time. Don't ever introduce that b!tch to me, unless you want to watch me punch her right in her ugly face."

I think saying nothing, considering how I was feeling, is progress.


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## SecondTime'Round

Nomorebeans said:


> My WS actually asked for forgiveness recently, sort of. We were talking about our son, and I told him that the thing he had told me was most painful about his Dad leaving was that it all seemed to "come out of nowhere" - that he, like me, really didn't see it coming. (How could we, when my WS never once told me that he was unhappy in our marriage over the last two years that he later said he spent thinking about how unhappy he was all the time, and telling all his friends that our marriage was over?) He finally said, "I'm sorry about that. I went about it all wrong, and I'll regret that for the rest of my life. I don't blame you for being mad at me. You should be."
> 
> Yes, that was my golden opportunity to say, "I forgive you."
> 
> But I wasn't feeling it, so I just didn't say anything (because what I really wanted to say was "You bet your stupid @$$ I'm mad." Or "'Mad' doesn't quite cover it" or "I sure am, and will be for a long time. Don't ever introduce that b!tch to me, unless you want to watch me punch her right in her ugly face."
> 
> I think saying nothing, considering how I was feeling, is progress.


I agree. That is progress. I think it's way too soon for forgiveness for you.


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## Ynot

Nomorebeans said:


> My WS actually asked for forgiveness recently, sort of. We were talking about our son, and I told him that the thing he had told me was most painful about his Dad leaving was that it all seemed to "come out of nowhere" - that he, like me, really didn't see it coming. (How could we, when my WS never once told me that he was unhappy in our marriage over the last two years that he later said he spent thinking about how unhappy he was all the time, and telling all his friends that our marriage was over?) He finally said, "I'm sorry about that. I went about it all wrong, and I'll regret that for the rest of my life. I don't blame you for being mad at me. You should be."
> 
> Yes, that was my golden opportunity to say, "I forgive you."
> 
> But I wasn't feeling it, so I just didn't say anything (because what I really wanted to say was "You bet your stupid @$$ I'm mad." Or "'Mad' doesn't quite cover it" or "I sure am, and will be for a long time. Don't ever introduce that b!tch to me, unless you want to watch me punch her right in her ugly face."
> 
> I think saying nothing, considering how I was feeling, is progress.


I measure my recovery by how many times I am able to keep my mouth shut despite wanting to tell anybody and everybody about how I was treated. It is a sign of progress and one I relish whenever I am strong enough to keep it to my self. 
In the end, nobody can ever really grasp exactly how you feel. Even here in this forum, the individual reactions range from indifference to utter rage. The best we can do is try to take it all a day at a time, celebrating each small mile stone in our own recovery to becoming happy, healthy and whole again.


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## 2ntnuf

Nomorebeans said:


> My WS actually asked for forgiveness recently, sort of. We were talking about our son, and I told him that the thing he had told me was most painful about his Dad leaving was that it all seemed to "come out of nowhere" - that he, like me, really didn't see it coming. (How could we, when my WS never once told me that he was unhappy in our marriage over the last two years that he later said he spent thinking about how unhappy he was all the time, and telling all his friends that our marriage was over?) He finally said, "I'm sorry about that. I went about it all wrong, and I'll regret that for the rest of my life. I don't blame you for being mad at me. You should be."
> 
> Yes, that was my golden opportunity to say, "I forgive you."
> 
> But I wasn't feeling it, so I just didn't say anything (because what I really wanted to say was "You bet your stupid @$$ I'm mad." Or "'Mad' doesn't quite cover it" or "I sure am, and will be for a long time. Don't ever introduce that b!tch to me, unless you want to watch me punch her right in her ugly face."
> 
> I think saying nothing, considering how I was feeling, is progress.





Ynot said:


> I measure my recovery by how many times I am able to keep my mouth shut despite wanting to tell anybody and everybody about how I was treated. It is a sign of progress and one I relish whenever I am strong enough to keep it to my self.
> In the end, nobody can ever really grasp exactly how you feel. Even here in this forum, the individual reactions range from indifference to utter rage. The best we can do is try to take it all a day at a time, celebrating each small mile stone in our own recovery to becoming happy, healthy and whole again.


What I underlined is important. Sometimes we need someone to talk with and that can be a counselor. Sometimes there is a very close friend. It's really good when you can bite your tongue and it doesn't hurt you more.

I think journaling will help NMB. Maybe you can write down what you'd like to say and then shred it or save it to read later, but it would get it out, since you can't speak your mind right now? I encourage anyone to journal their thoughts and feelings. 

Some say forgiveness is overrated. I think hate and anger will eat you up like slow poison. I want you all to know, I have not forgiven anyone yet. It's been a very long time. I didn't have counseling or the means to get it. I encourage anyone who is hurting to find someone to help them talk it out and figure out what the next step is, if you are having trouble. Don't wait. 

I wish I could help you all more. I learned alot, but couldn't apply it. It's all just a pipe dream for me. That's why I don't participate in these forgiveness thread any more. I know I'm not capable of it. Maybe someday, who knows?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Honestly, the fastest and easiest way for a BS or a left behind spouse to forgive would be to sincerely live a life after marriage that is happier, healthier, more joyful, wealthier, and with more friends and loved ones than during the marriage. When you see the former spouse's face when they realize it's you, magic. Not sure how else this can be accomplished? 

I think some would say some sort of revenge that isn't too awful would be comforting. If it could be ongoing when you are angry because things don't go right sometimes, and you could stick that knife in a little further or twist a little and see the pain, it would help. The trouble with that is it eats at your soul after a while. You end up becoming that person who is always looking for revenge using any means at your disposal. Things like constant passive aggression, looking for weakness in others and using that to your advantage would become commonplace. Controlling others with the pain you can inflict on them is soul crushing for both the actor and the recipient. Some need that feeling of power. It feels good for a short time ant then you don't even know you are doing it. It just comes natural. 

I've got a lot to say, but I don't know how much it's worth. I've thought about this. I've considered that I can think of anything, but I can't do anything I think. Not only can I not afford anything really deliciously vengeful, but some things would be illegal and I can guarantee I would be the one to get caught. It's just the way my life goes. Most others would be patted on the back. I'd be punished as harshly as possible. Maybe some of that would be me punishing myself? Which is another reason I can't do anything...conscience. Yeah, I got one, damnit.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I remember one thread I was in where someone said that there are men and women who forgive things much more heinous. Here is one man who forgave. 

https://youtu.be/2yV_HLDjMlw

How did he do it? He was accused wrongly for a crime and he paid with most of his life. He was likely ridiculed, made fun of, told he was a liar, laughed at and maybe abandoned by some of his friends and family for a crime he did not commit. How does one forgive all those offenses? 

Well, we don't know what he went through in prison. I imagine it was hell. We all know, every criminal says he's innocent, or so they say. Some truly are innocent.

I think he feels vindicated. I see important people treating him with respect. I hear honest questions that aren't meant to trick him. I see respect given to him before he even gets a chance to do anything outside of prison. I see how proud he is without arrogance. I see him as one of the most grateful men I've ever witnessed on film or in real life. 

Is that what it takes, being grateful for everything we have and accepting what is, but plodding forward? Does it take one person who believes in us and loves us or has such a guilty conscience that they fight for us with all their might? What does it take, someone who believes us and in us? I think that's a big part of it. Someone important to our personal dilemma believing that what we are feeling, saying, or did was just as we stated. 

I think the rest is within us. It's a humbleness, an attitude that we know we can. I think of "The Little Engine That Could", saying, "I think I can. I think I can. I think I can." Where is that strength? It's without and within. It comes from both. When we can't do any more, there is someone there to lift us up. It's what religion is all about. Hope where there really is not logical reason for it. 

Sorry for so many posts. I guess this is something I struggle with all the time. I'm still searching. Hope some of this helps someone. You deserve to live, be happy, joyful, forgiving, be loved, have hope, and be the best you can be. 

Actually, I'm grateful for this thread. It made me think about things I hadn't for a long time.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

2ntnuf said:


> I remember one thread I was in where someone said that there are men and women who forgive things much more heinous. Here is one man who forgave.
> 
> https://youtu.be/2yV_HLDjMlw
> 
> How did he do it? He was accused wrongly for a crime and he paid with most of his life. He was likely ridiculed, made fun of, told he was a liar, laughed at and maybe abandoned by some of his friends and family for a crime he did not commit. How does one forgive all those offenses?
> 
> Well, we don't know what he went through in prison. I imagine it was hell. We all know, every criminal says he's innocent, or so they say. Some truly are innocent.
> 
> I think he feels vindicated. I see important people treating him with respect. I hear honest questions that aren't meant to trick him. I see respect given to him before he even gets a chance to do anything outside of prison. I see how proud he is without arrogance. I see him as one of the most grateful men I've ever witnessed on film or in real life.
> 
> *Is that what it takes, being grateful for everything we have and accepting what is, but plodding forward? Does it take one person who believes in us and loves us or has such a guilty conscience that they fight for us with all their might? What does it take, someone who believes us and in us? I think that's a big part of it. Someone important to our personal dilemma believing that what we are feeling, saying, or did was just as we stated. *
> 
> I think the rest is within us. It's a humbleness, an attitude that we know we can. I think of "The Little Engine That Could", saying, "I think I can. I think I can. I think I can." Where is that strength? It's without and within. It comes from both. When we can't do any more, there is someone there to lift us up. It's what religion is all about. Hope where there really is not logical reason for it.
> 
> *Sorry for so many posts.* I guess this is something I struggle with all the time. I'm still searching. Hope some of this helps someone. You deserve to live, be happy, joyful, forgiving, be loved, have hope, and be the best you can be.
> 
> Actually, I'm grateful for this thread. It made me think about things I hadn't for a long time.


Don't be sorry for so many posts. Your thoughts and hashing it out....that's exactly what I wanted when I started this thread.

What you said about having someone who believes in you (or more than one) is actually something I have been thinking about too, so I'm glad you brought that up. I think how I was thinking about it was in the way of getting involved in another relationship too soon and it providing a false sense of that. (I have zero prospects on the table....I just know how I am, and it's something I will have to be really strong about (resisting) once I'm out of here, completely alone....until I'm totally healed). For me, the belief in me has to come from my good friends, my family, and from my God.


----------



## 2ntnuf

SecondTime'Round said:


> Don't be sorry for so many posts. Your thoughts and hashing it out....that's exactly what I wanted when I started this thread.
> 
> What you said about having someone who believes in you (or more than one) is actually something I have been thinking about too, so I'm glad you brought that up. I think how I was thinking about it was in the way of getting involved in another relationship too soon and it providing a false sense of that. (I have zero prospects on the table....I just know how I am, and it's something I will have to be really strong about (resisting) once I'm out of here, completely alone....until I'm totally healed). For me, the belief in me has to come from my good friends, my family, and from my God.


I suppose it can come from others, too. That's what that link to the video was about. Not all of that man's cheerleaders were family or friends. 

As far as getting it from a date or something like that, I do think it can help, but I haven't dated anyone. The last woman I was with was my second wife. That was 06/03/2011. I've not yet recovered. There's more to it than just the infidelity and losing a wife for me, though. There is much more. I'm not naive. I just don't talk about it to everyone, and it looks like it's all about that infidelity. In reality, that infidelity was just the start of other negative things in my life, many caused or influenced by that, but some not.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

2ntnuf said:


> I suppose it can come from others, too. That's what that link to the video was about. Not all of that man's cheerleaders were family or friends.
> 
> As far as getting it from a date or something like that, I do think it can help, but I haven't dated anyone. The last woman I was with was my second wife. That was 06/03/2011. I've not yet recovered. There's more to it than just the infidelity and losing a wife for me, though. There is much more. I'm not naive. I just don't talk about it to everyone, and it looks like it's all about that infidelity. In reality, that infidelity was just the start of other negative things in my life, many caused or influenced by that, but some not.


Well, keep posting. I've liked what you've had to say. I think it helps us all struggling with this concept of forgiveness even though all of our stories are different.


----------



## WasDecimated

> It's tough to forgive someone who doesn't ask to be forgiven and will not do the work to make some sort of amends.


I agree with this.

I don't think I will ever be able to forgive my XWW. I never saw any real remorse. Without that...ain't gonna happen. I got a couple of "I'm sorrys" but that's about it and it certainly doesn't even come close to fixing any of the devastation she caused to me, our marriage, and or children. I think what makes it worse is the fact that XWW knew I had been cheated on by my first XWW many years earlier. She knew the pain I went through and promised that she could and would never do that to me...but she did. To me, that is unforgivable.

The cheating was bad enough but add to it the years of lying, TT'ing, Blame-shifting, Stonewalling, and just generally treating me like I was a piece of S**t stuck to the bottom of her shoe when I was trying to offer the gift of R...I will never forget these things. I guess I can't forgive her as long as I have a memory. 



> Forgiveness is easier from higher ground


This is true. I may someday be able to forgive her when I get my life back together and get claw my way to higher ground. But that could take a long time. Hopefully, someday I'll meet someone special who will make me forget...IDK. That being said, I still doubt I could ever forgive her for what she did to our children's lives.


----------



## zillard

I don't think it's necessary for the other person to show remorse in order to forgive. I think it's a conscious, deliberate decision on the part of the forgiver to take that path. 

I also see it as imperative to happiness, and not something you do for them at all, but for yourself. 

When the betrayed views the culprit as a villain, forgiveness is not likely. I think it's only possible when the forgiver begins to see the culprit as a human being, with flaws. 

When I look at myself, acknowledge my own flaws and my own POS tendencies, I feel much closer to reaching that point. Not the point of having forgiven, as I see it as a process, but the point of being able to work on that process.

We are all human, we all make mistakes, and I firmly believe that we are all capable of doing the things that have been done to us (provided there is the perfect storm of circumstances). It is highly unlikely that I will make the same choices as those who have wronged me, and that is due to different life experiences and learned behaviors. However, still possible. 

Because of that possibility, I can feel good about myself, and look back at my choices with pride (certainly not all of them though). If it were not possible for me to make the same mistakes, I would have no reason to congratulate myself for making good choices. 

If that is true about me, certainly it is true about other humans. So I can see them as imperfect beings who have made poor choices, rather than as villains. I can absolutely detest those choices, without detesting the people themselves. 

And as I have wished for, and sometimes been forgiven and even loved without showing remorse, it is also possible for me to do just that. 

I do not like the adage, forgive and forget. 

To me, it is not about forgetting. Those memories are too strong to forget as they were traumatic. And if I did forget, then my choice to attempt to forgive would be meaningless. 

As I make that attempt for me, I want to feel good about it. That requires memory.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> I don't think it's necessary for the other person to show remorse in order to forgive. I think it's a conscious, deliberate decision on the part of the forgiver to take that path.


I want to add, echoing what another poster wrote, that forgiveness and reconciliation are two different beasts. 

One can be done without remorse from the offender, the other can not.


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## toolforgrowth

I view forgiveness much like respect. It is not freely given; one must earn it.

I believe there is merit to the argument that one can forgive in order to heal, but I've never found that applicable to me personally. It felt fake, and not authentic to my inner sensibilities. That's not to say I hold a grudge, as a grudge would imply a self-induced negative lifestyle as result. I don't see myself living in such a way. But neither does the pendulum swing in the opposite direction.

I see a lot of people who discuss forgiveness coming to it from a position of pain, and they're looking for some type of relief. Understandable, but I've never associated forgiveness with pain relief. It does me no harm to say my xWW isn't deserving of my forgiveness. It's a simple statement of truth. However, I recognize that what may apply to me personally isn't going to work for everyone.


----------



## zillard

toolforgrowth said:


> It does me no harm to say my xWW isn't deserving of my forgiveness.


There is nothing wrong that. I can say the same thing with no hesitation. 

Yet, as I see forgiveness as a gift for myself and not for her, it makes little difference to me. 

"I forgive you" are words that I never have to say to her, even if I do. 

YMMV


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

ConanHub said:


> Forgiveness is spoken of as a position of strength. It is always referred to in the sense of a more powerful person forgiving a weaker person.
> 
> Work on yourself and be good to yourself and others. Take time to heal and it will become easier to forgive.
> 
> When you are still hurt and lying in the dust with the person who hurt you still standing over you, it is very hard to forgive from that position.
> 
> Take time, get strong, stay away from intimate relationships and concentrate on your friends. Enjoy church and exercise and eat well.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. I would never stop loving Mrs. Conan and forgive her quickly, but there are some things she could do that would make it impossible for me to be married to her anymore.
> 
> Very sorry for the pain in your heart and soul.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like this a lot.

I tried to force myself to forgive my husband. I would tell myself, "I am only hurting myself by carrying around this anger, it's a burden, I need to forgive him to stop hurting." But I just couldn't do it! The resentment got worse.

How did I get through it? I was kind enough to myself to just allow each phase to come and go - the phase of anger, the phase of pain, the phase of guilt, the phase of anger again - they washed over me and I let them, instead of fighting them.

I made healthy choices for myself and my child, that helped build a better life for me.

Slowly, as I became more peaceful and happier, it became easier to forgive. I wasn't forcing it on myself any more and beating myself up for not forgiving him...it just came more naturally.

Have I forgiven him 100%? I don't think so. But I can talk to him and think about him without the resentment and bitterness.

To be fair to him: Once we decided to really end our marriage, he asked me to forgive him. Maybe that made it easier as well.


----------



## WasDecimated

> "I forgive you" are words that I never have to say to her, even if I do.


Maybe some day I'll be in a place where I can "think" this...but that day sure as hell isn't today. I doubt I will ever actually say it.



> I don't think it's necessary for the other person to show remorse in order to forgive.


Sorry, for me, I can't agree with this one. I guess it has to do with the magnitude of the devastation. I could and have forgiven an accident or a mistake. But derailing my life, marriage, children's lives, and purposefully putting your spouse in emotional, physical, and financial danger just because you are bored...without remorse? Those are choices, not mistakes.


----------



## zillard

They ARE choices. Aren't all mistakes?

"an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong"

She may never think those choices were mistakes (and if she ever does, may not let you know that), but you will likely always see them as wrong or misguided. 

I don't think that changes - even after forgiveness. 

To me it's not about being OK with her choices. It's about being OK, even though her choices affected me.


----------



## toolforgrowth

zillard said:


> They ARE choices. Aren't all mistakes?
> 
> "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong"
> 
> She may never think those choices were mistakes (and if she ever does, may not let you know that), but you will likely always see them as wrong or misguided.
> 
> I don't think that changes - even after forgiveness.
> 
> To me it's not about being OK with their choices. It's about being OK, even though their choices affected me.


I hear your point, but one can achieve being OK without forgiving them for their actions.

I've never understood the rationalization that one MUST forgive in order to move on. I moved on just fine without forgiving my xWW. I can understand how forgiveness may help some achieve peace, but it's not a requirement.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

toolforgrowth said:


> I hear your point, but one can achieve being OK without forgiving them for their actions.
> 
> I've never understood the rationalization that one MUST forgive in order to move on. I moved on just fine without forgiving my xWW. I can understand how forgiveness may help some achieve peace, but it's not a requirement.


I guess it all boils down to the definition of forgiveness. For me, that definition is: I'm no longer going to hold what you did to me against me. It doesn't mean I think it's right or I excuse it in any way. I'm just not going to hold it against you in our interactions with each other moving forward. The past no longer hurts me. Clean slate from HERE on.


----------



## zillard

I like this, from the Mayo Clinic:



> Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, more positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.


By this definition, if you do truly "move on", aren't you, in effect, forgiving?


----------



## SecondTime'Round

zillard said:


> I like this, from the Mayo Clinic:
> 
> 
> 
> By this definition, if you do truly "move on", aren't you, in effect, forgiving?


Yes, I think so. Unless you still constantly bring up the past/make digs at that person. Then, you haven't forgiven. And quite possibly also have not moved on.


----------



## WasDecimated

> To me it's not about being OK with her choices. It's about being OK, even though her choices affected me.


I can and will be OK without forgiving her. My future does not depend on it. If she wants forgiveness...she can earn it. The first step to that is remorse. The next is atonement but that means making up for her wrong doings. How could she ever do that?

In my mind, at least at this point, some things are just not forgivable.


----------



## 2ntnuf

zillard said:


> I don't think it's necessary for the other person to show remorse in order to forgive. I think it's a conscious, deliberate decision on the part of the forgiver to take that path.
> 
> I also see it as imperative to happiness, and not something you do for them at all, but for yourself.


The problem I have with the idea of forgiving without being asked is the way I was raised in the church. I may be mistaken about my belief, but I thought that a person could not be forgiven, if they did not ask and honestly desire it. 

I don't know if it is imperative. I'm not sure I understand the definition of forgiveness in the manner you and others do. I think that is a problem. We probably should define it, if we want to understand each other. 



zillard said:


> When the betrayed views the culprit as a villain, forgiveness is not likely. I think it's only possible when the forgiver begins to see the culprit as a human being, with flaws.


A villain is a human with flaws. They are just flaws that happened to be illegal. (That underlined sentence is incorrect.)

villain
noun vil·lain \ˈvi-lən\
: a character in a story, movie, etc., who does bad things

: a person who does bad things

: someone or something that is blamed for a particular problem or difficulty
Take a 2-minute break! See if 
you can Name That Thing »
Full Definition of VILLAIN

1
: villein
2
: an uncouth person : boor
3
: a deliberate scoundrel or criminal
4
: a character in a story or play who opposes the hero
5
: one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty <automation as the villain in job … displacement — M. H. Goldberg>
See villain defined for English-language learners 
See villain defined for kids 

Examples of VILLAIN

He plays the villain in most of his movies.
She describes her first husband as a villain who treated her terribly.
Don't try to make me the villain. It's your own fault that you're having these problems.

Synonyms
baddie (or baddy), beast, brute, caitiff, devil, evildoer, fiend, heavy, hound, knave, meanie (also meany), miscreant, monster, nazi, no-good, rapscallion, rascal, reprobate, rogue, savage, scalawag (or scallywag), scamp, scapegrace, scoundrel, varlet, wretch 



zillard said:


> When I look at myself, acknowledge my own flaws and my own POS tendencies, I feel much closer to reaching that point. Not the point of having forgiven, as I see it as a process, but the point of being able to work on that process.


When I look at myself, I feel guilty and sad. I feel the real pain I caused. I feel terrible that I was so insensitive. I want to and did say I was sorry,several times for the things I did, after my first marriage ended. I did work to make sure I wouldn't do the same thing again and that was made known to my first ex-wife.(Edited a sentence to make more sense. I reversed how I originally wrote it.)

She doesn't have to accept my apology. That's up to her. She can still hate me or whatever, but I did the work and made the effort. 

Would that look to anyone like making amends and asking forgiveness? Even if you say it's not asking forgiveness, because I never truly did. I didn't expect her to be capable. I still told her I was sorry more than once, and years apart. In fact, any time she mentioned anything about our marriage, that seemed like she was hurting, which wasn't often, I apologized. Does that look anything like remorse?

Believe me, she wasn't innocent. She did some nasty things to me, too. I don't care about those because I felt I did some things I needed to be sorry for doing. 

Not this time, and it's not arrogance or pride. It's not narcissism. 



zillard said:


> We are all human, we all make mistakes, and I firmly believe that we are all capable of doing the things that have been done to us (provided there is the perfect storm of circumstances). It is highly unlikely that I will make the same choices as those who have wronged me, and that is due to different life experiences and learned behaviors. However, still possible.


This sounds like it contradicts what you base forgiveness upon. You say we could all do the same and then you say you won't. That makes me disbelieve the following. I get the impression you don't really believe it. 



zillard said:


> Because of that possibility, I can feel good about myself, and look back at my choices with pride (certainly not all of them though). If it were not possible for me to make the same mistakes, I would have no reason to congratulate myself for making good choices.
> 
> If that is true about me, certainly it is true about other humans. So I can see them as imperfect beings who have made poor choices, rather than as villains. I can absolutely detest those choices, without detesting the people themselves.
> 
> And as I have wished for, and sometimes been forgiven and even loved without showing remorse, it is also possible for me to do just that.


I'd appreciate a for instance(example).



zillard said:


> I do not like the adage, forgive and forget.
> 
> To me, it is not about forgetting. Those memories are too strong to forget as they were traumatic. And if I did forget, then my choice to attempt to forgive would be meaningless.
> 
> As I make that attempt for me, I want to feel good about it. That requires memory.


Memory means you will always remember the pain. You will always feel that anger, frustration, hurt, betrayal, and so forth. Is it really forgiveness when we hold the past against someone? I'm not so sure.

Zillard, this wasn't an attack on you. It was an example of what I think when I read what you've written, or when someone says those things to me. It's like they really weren't hurt that badly and did enough of their own misbehaving that their consience won't let them hold it against their former spouse. Some revenge does the same. Sometimes, if you give it a good shot at R, you can feel this way. I think there is much more to this and we can't just say "shoulds" without qualifying where we come from.

Edit: The trouble is, I know you were hurt badly.


----------



## toolforgrowth

Decimated said:


> To me it's not about being OK with her choices. It's about being OK, even though her choices affected me.
> 
> 
> 
> I can and will be OK without forgiving her. My future does not depend on it. If she wants forgiveness...she can earn it. The first step to that is remorse. The next is atonement but that means making up for her wrong doings. How could she ever do that?
> 
> In my mind, at least at this point, some things are just not forgivable.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

How could she possibly atone for what she did? There's no way. Nothing she could ever do could make forgiveness a viable option. Rather that constantly pick at it, it was much healthier for me to say, "I just never want to forgive her. There's nothing she can do."

That was actually very liberating. I stopped trying to read into her words and actions. I stopped giving a darn about what she was doing. If nothing they can do could ever make things right, then what's the point in obsessing over them and what they do?

I felt a weight lift off my shoulders when I realized that.


----------



## zillard

Decimated said:


> I can and will be OK without forgiving her. My future does not depend on it. If she wants forgiveness...she can earn it. The first step to that is remorse. The next is atonement but that means making up for her wrong doings. How could she ever do that?
> 
> In my mind, at least at this point, some things are just not forgivable.


Cool. Proceed with my best wishes. We all do what sits best with us, and that will inevitably differ. 

Atonement, making amends? That's tough to answer as the requirements for that also differ greatly. 

What would you need to see/hear? Would requirements for making amends and R differ or be similar? Or do you feel both are impossible because you see the actions as unforgivable?


----------



## 2ntnuf

toolforgrowth said:


> Bingo.
> 
> How could she possibly atone for what she did? There's no way. Nothing she could ever do could make forgiveness a viable option. Rather that constantly pick at it, it was much healthier for me to say, "I just never want to forgive her. There's nothing she can do."
> 
> That was actually very liberating. I stopped trying to read into her words and actions. I stopped giving a darn about what she was doing. If nothing they can do could ever make things right, then what's the point in obsessing over them and what they do?
> 
> I felt a weight lift off my shoulders when I realized that.


I sort of lean this way at the moment, and really enjoyed what Decimated posted.


----------



## Ynot

As I said in one of my posts on this thread, nobody really knows how you feel and in this forum alone the reaction to the damage inflicted upon us runs from indifference to rage. The bottom line is each of us must do whatever we must do to make ourselves whole again. Some may find no need to forgive. Personally, I need to forgive. Not for my ex, but for me. Forgiveness really isn't about your ex, it is about you letting go of the anger and resentment and not letting it control your life anymore. I cannot let go of the anger and bitterness without forgiveness. I simply do not want anger and bitterness to be a part of my life. I will never forget what has been done to me, my life, my family and my friends by the choices my ex made, but I have no choice other than to live with them. I can choose to hold on to the hurt or I can choose to let it go. I want to let it go. Forgiveness is not a single act as much as it is a process. One day at a time.


I still have moments when I just want to sit in the dark and cry. Then I realize, it accomplishes NOTHING. It changes NOTHING! It cannot change ANYTHING! So I tell myself to let it go. I Can't change the past, but I can start today towards building a better future.


----------



## Holland

> I like this, from the Mayo Clinic:
> 
> Quote:
> *Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, more positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.*
> By this definition, if you do truly "move on", aren't you, in effect, forgiving?


I like this, it is exactly where I am in life and am at peace with the past. It makes moving on a whole lot easier. I have never said to my ex that I forgive him, it is not a necessary part of the process. The power I gave to myself was to let go and forgive him for who is is. I cannot condone what he did (or in our case didn't do) but I forgive him and me. It took years of stress of my shoulders to do this.


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## zillard

2ntnuf said:


> The problem I have with the idea of forgiving without being asked is the way I was raised in the church. I may be mistaken about my belief, but I thought that a person could not be forgiven, if they did not ask and honestly desire it.


I was raised extremely religious and know what you mean. The way I understood it was that in order to obtain forgiveness from God, asking is a requirement, as is restitution. Also, that is the *best way* to obtain forgiveness from others, if we are seeking it. However that wasn't necessary to forgive, as forgiveness is an act of Christ-like, unconditional love of ourselves and others, regardless of their actions. (not to be confused with romantic love)



2ntnuf said:


> A villain is a human with flaws.
> 
> villain
> noun vil·lain \ˈvi-lən\
> : a character in a story, movie, etc., who does bad things
> : a person who does bad things
> : someone or something that is blamed for a particular problem or difficulty
> 
> 1
> : villein
> 2
> : an uncouth person : boor
> 3
> : a deliberate scoundrel or criminal
> 4
> : a character in a story or play who opposes the hero
> 5
> : one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty <automation as the villain in job … displacement — M. H. Goldberg>
> See villain defined for English-language learners
> See villain defined for kids
> 
> Examples of VILLAIN
> 
> He plays the villain in most of his movies.
> She describes her first husband as a villain who treated her terribly.
> Don't try to make me the villain. It's your own fault that you're having these problems.


To clarify, I did not mean villain as "a human with flaws", but more like the synonyms below:

beast, devil, evildoer, fiend, knave, monster, nazi, no-good, savage, scoundrel, varlet, wretch 

We all have flaws. Yet we are clearly not all villains. Even heroes in movies have flaws. 



2ntnuf said:


> When I look at myself, I feel guilty and sad. I feel the real pain I caused. I feel terrible that I was so insensitive. I want to and did say I was sorry,several times for the things I did, after my first marriage ended. I did work to make sure I wouldn't do the same thing again and that was made known to my first ex-wife.(Edited a sentence to make more sense. I reversed how I originally wrote it.)
> 
> She doesn't have to accept my apology. That's up to her. She can still hate me or whatever, but I did the work and made the effort.
> 
> Would that look to anyone like making amends and asking forgiveness? Even if you say it's not asking forgiveness, because I never truly did. I didn't expect her to be capable. I still told her I was sorry more than once, and years apart. In fact, any time she mentioned anything about our marriage, that seemed like she was hurting, which wasn't often, I apologized. Does that look anything like remorse?
> 
> Believe me, she wasn't innocent. She did some nasty things to me, too. I don't care about those because I felt I did some things I needed to be sorry for doing.
> 
> Not this time, and it's not arrogance or pride. It's not narcissism.


An honest, heart-felt apology, owning our own POS tendencies, with NO strings attached IS remorseful - yes. 

I did that, apologized to the woman who cheated, lied and abused me, before moving away with my daughter. With no hopes of R or any type of apology in return. It was liberating. 

Why? Because I knew I had been arrogant, selfish, and distant. Do I feel that my mistakes were on the same level as hers? He!! no! I still don't. But it was important to me to own them. 



2ntnuf said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are all human, we all make mistakes, and I firmly believe that we are all capable of doing the things that have been done to us (provided there is the perfect storm of circumstances). It is highly unlikely that I will make the same choices as those who have wronged me, and that is due to different life experiences and learned behaviors. However, still possible.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds like it contradicts what you base forgiveness upon. You say we could all do the same and then you say you won't. That makes me disbelieve the following. I get the impression you don't really believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because of that possibility, I can feel good about myself, and look back at my choices with pride (certainly not all of them though). If it were not possible for me to make the same mistakes, I would have no reason to congratulate myself for making good choices.
> 
> If that is true about me, certainly it is true about other humans. So I can see them as imperfect beings who have made poor choices, rather than as villains. I can absolutely detest those choices, without detesting the people themselves.
> 
> And as I have wished for, and sometimes been forgiven and even loved without showing remorse, it is also possible for me to do just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd appreciate a for instance(example).
Click to expand...

I don't see a contradiction. 

Saying nasty things: She did frequently. I am capable and have also been guilty of this. Due to differences in upbringing, she is more likely to do this than I am. Her mother did this frequently and is a learned behavior. Knowing that helps me understand why, but she is an adult now and just as responsible for her actions as I am. Due to behaviors I learned, I am more likely to shut up, bottle it, and emotionally distance myself. Both are harmful. Even though I'm less likely, I am also an adult and I can be proud of not saying nasty things, as it does take effort. 

Cheating: She did. I had opportunity but did not. I am still capable of it though. I can tell myself I'm not "that kind of person" or "I could never do that". I can think that I am inherently a better person than she. I'm sure she told herself the same things. Yet it happened. Listening to her, reading up on it, going to counseling, etc helped me understand how she got to the point where she could make that choice. And I see that we are all capable of infidelity. That's why it's important to avoid situations which enable it. That's why it's important to "affair-proof" your relationship. That's why transparency is vital. 

No, it's not likely that I will do that. Because of what I know. Because of what I avoid. Because of where I have been. Those things influence my decisions. I know I wouldn't be OK with myself if I did. However, if I was in the emotional state she was in, at a time when I felt my relationship was in the state she felt it was in, and I was in a situation, surroundings, and company like she was, me not being OK with myself wouldn't be my first thought. And it could happen.

So yeah, my experience was one of shock, trauma, betrayal, disbelief, and deep, deep pain. At that time, around DDay, of course I saw her as villainous. 

Now, no. Because I can see things from her perspective too. I see her (then) as a deeply hurt, scared little girl searching for external validation and comfort, running away from her problems and stupidly, selfishly creating much larger problems for herself and those around her in the process. 

But no longer as a monster. I honestly don't think she felt malevolent. 

So yes, I really do believe what I wrote. 



2ntnuf said:


> Memory means you will always remember the pain. You will always feel that anger, frustration, hurt, betrayal, and so forth. Is it really forgiveness when we hold the past against someone? I'm not so sure.


Yes, I will always remember that pain, anger, frustration, hurt and betrayal. But no, that doesn't mean that I will always hold the past against her. If I did, no, that would not be forgiveness. Neither would it be moving on.



2ntnuf said:


> Zillard, this wasn't an attack on you. It was an example of what I think when I read what you've written, or when someone says those things to me. It's like they really weren't hurt that badly and did enough of their own misbehaving that their consience won't let them hold it against their former spouse. Some revenge does the same. Sometimes, if you give it a good shot at R, you can feel this way. I think there is much more to this and we can't just say "shoulds" without qualifying where we come from.
> 
> Edit: The trouble is, I know you were hurt badly.


I don't feel attacked. Hopefully this helped you see a different perspective, even though you may not agree (which is fine). I think the differences in perspective are not due to degrees of hurt, nor conscience. I think they stem from different views on what forgiveness is and the how/why.


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## 2ntnuf

Thank you Z. Much appreciated.


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## commonsenseisn't

2ntnuf said:


> There's more to it than just the infidelity and losing a wife for me, though. There is much more. I'm not naive. I just don't talk about it to everyone, and it looks like it's all about that infidelity. In reality, that infidelity was just the start of other negative things in my life, many caused or influenced by that, but some not.


I know exactly what you are talking about.


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## Nomorebeans

I had a less than stellar relationship with my stepmother for most of the 42 years I knew her. After my Dad died, she actually seemed to want to be friends for the first time in our history. I thought we were friends after a while. She got lung cancer, and in the last six months of her battle with it, lost her mind and decided I was the enemy, couldn't be trusted, and was trying to steal from her. She cut off all ties with me. I ended up grieving losing her long before she died.

About a month before then, I came to a place where I realized there was nothing I could do to change her mind, and more important, I no longer cared to. I still asked my step siblings how she was doing, but I didn't care what she said or thought about me anymore.

I think that's what it is - it's when you stop caring about what they say, do, or think - when you become truly indifferent to them. Only then can you look at them objectively, and let the bitterness and resentment go.


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## zillard

Good point, beans. There are many people who have been wronged by someone who simply cannot ask for forgiveness or make amends, due to disease, death, etc. 

And there are steps one can take to move on or forgive, even then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WasDecimated

zillard said:


> Cool. Proceed with my best wishes. We all do what sits best with us, and that will inevitably differ.
> 
> Atonement, making amends? That's tough to answer as the requirements for that also differ greatly.
> 
> What would you need to see/hear? Would requirements for making amends and R differ or be similar? Or do you feel both are impossible because you see the actions as unforgivable?


Thank you for the best wishes Zillard. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools and I was even an altar boy. I attend a Presbyterian church now. I understand the importance of forgiveness. It is a subject that is preached often in the Bible. However, I just can’t bring myself to extend that to her. Maybe that will change someday.

What I needed to see and hear from her was remorse, true remorse. To me that is an acknowledgement of the damage and pain she caused, a deep feeling of regret, an openness and honesty about what she did…and why. I needed to see a genuine, focused effort, by her to understand and fix the issues she had that would allow her to do this. I also needed her to put a great effort into helping to fix me and rebuild my trust, self-esteem, and confidence. 

Now that I’ve written this, I guess the requirements for atonement/making amends and R look pretty much the same. Obviously timing is the difference. Pre-divorce, this could have worked and it is what I was hoping for. However, this could never be accomplished now that we’re divorced. In my mind it would be too little…too late. The bridge has been burned, so to speak. Maybe part of the unforgivable action was her dragging her feet for years, through all the D days which forced me to divorce her.

I did warn her at the beginning,” Once I file for divorce, I will not stop it”.


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## zillard

That's where you are and there is nothing wrong with that. 

Many counselors will not encourage and even advise against trying to forgive until the person feels that they are ready and actually want to do that. 

And not feeling it doesn't make you a lesser person at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

As this discussion on forgiveness has been frequently linked to remorse, understandably, I want to add something I found interesting and helpful about the differences between guilt and remorse. 

Hope you don't mind SecondTime'Round. 

R. Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
G. A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).

R. Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
G. Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.

R. Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
G. Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.

R. Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
G. Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".

R. Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
G. Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.

R. Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
G. Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.

R. Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
G. Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.

R. Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
G. Guilt leads to self hatred.

R. Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
G. Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.


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## SecondTime'Round

Great list, Zillard. I especially like the first one. I recently told a girlfriend that my STBX was stalking and stomping through the house like I'D done something wrong and not him. She said, "He's stomping through the house because he's guilty and he knows it." I really did not understand what she meant by that. (This was an email convo, not in person). Now I do (she's very insightful).


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## commonsenseisn't

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful words on this subject. I needed it. 

It occurs to me that there may be more than one definition of what constitutes forgiveness in this thread and some of the different ideas articulated may not be mutually exclusive. 

In my long struggle to forgive I keep encountering this one fact: if I desire peace within myself, I must be making some kind of progress in the forgiveness department. Sometimes I slip for a while and let bitterness dominate and then my feelings of peace go out the window. 

I've concluded that, for me, in my situation, in order to have peace and to be happy I must forgive. Your mileage may vary, but for me there's just no other way around it. 

For me, I think it's irrelevant if my ex deserves forgiveness because the point is I need to give it, instead of my ex receiving it. 

I doubt she is even capable of receiving or comprehending or appreciating it, but by some kind of law that seems to govern my existence I am not exempt from being required to give it in order to have peace. Does this make any sense? 

I haven't spoken to my ex for over 20 years and I never did tell her I forgave her because I was too caught up in asking her to forgive me. (ironic) If I spoke to her today I doubt I would tell her that I forgive her because why cast my pearls before the swine? 

The forgiveness I give her is for my sake and it is independent of whether she asks for it, deserves it, knows about it, yearns for it, or is indifferent to it. 

For me forgiveness is a process instead of an event. It is something I need to renew daily or I start to lose my peace of mind. It is much easier said than done. It is the single greatest challenge I've ever encountered and I don't have any advise to offer the OP except practice makes perfect. I'm a long way from perfect in this regard, but am better than I used to be. 

I also struggle a lot in forgiving myself, but that's a topic for another thread.


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## Holland

commonsenseisn't said:


> Thank you everyone for your thoughtful words on this subject. I needed it.
> 
> It occurs to me that there may be more than one definition of what constitutes forgiveness in this thread and some of the different ideas articulated may not be mutually exclusive.
> 
> In my long struggle to forgive I keep encountering this one fact: if I desire peace within myself, I must be making some kind of progress in the forgiveness department. Sometimes I slip for a while and let bitterness dominate and then my feelings of peace go out the window.
> 
> I've concluded that, for me, in my situation, in order to have peace and to be happy I must forgive. Your mileage may vary, but for me there's just no other way around it.
> 
> For me, I think it's irrelevant if my ex deserves forgiveness because the point is I need to give it, instead of my ex receiving it.
> 
> I doubt she is even capable of receiving or comprehending or appreciating it, but by some kind of law that seems to govern my existence I am not exempt from being required to give it in order to have peace. Does this make any sense?
> 
> I haven't spoken to my ex for over 20 years and I never did tell her I forgave her because I was too caught up in asking her to forgive me. (ironic) If I spoke to her today I doubt I would tell her that I forgive her because why cast my pearls before the swine?
> 
> The forgiveness I give her is for my sake and it is independent of whether she asks for it, deserves it, knows about it, yearns for it, or is indifferent to it.
> 
> For me forgiveness is a process instead of an event. It is something I need to renew daily or I start to lose my peace of mind. It is much easier said than done. It is the single greatest challenge I've ever encountered and I don't have any advise to offer the OP except practice makes perfect. I'm a long way from perfect in this regard, but am better than I used to be.
> 
> *I also struggle a lot in forgiving myself, but that's a topic for another thread*.


20 years is a long time, it is a 1/5 of a long lifetime. I like all you have written here but really hope that you can finish the process very soon, not healing for so long is only wasting your own life.

As to the bolded sentence that is a really interesting point. Not only is forgiving your past spouse healing but as important is to forgive yourself, much easier said than done.

From memory I completed the forgiving him and me process within two years of ending the marriage, sure I still get annoyed with him at times but I know how to get past it. I read a great book called "Spiritual Divorce" (I am not religious so skimmed any references to God) and it helped to get to a place of wholeness again. I highly recommend having a look at this book for anyone that is ready to forgive and take responsibility for where you also went wrong. Forgiveness and healing is a gift that you can give yourself, it is worth it, you are worth it and your future happiness depends on it.

Ironically the friend that gave me the book to read never read it herself and is still bitter 15 years post divorce.


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## 2ntnuf

A man walks in a store with no money and stomach growling. He steals an apple and eats it right away in the alley outside the store. The son of the proprietor, taking out the trash, sees the man eating the apple. He argues with him and accuses him, knowing he was in the store and did not pay for a thing. He berates him and beats him, leaving him there on the wet asphalt. 

The thief broke the law. Maybe the proprietor's son was attacked when he confronted the thief? Who would believe the thief? The proprietor, not the son, then prosecutes the thief to save his son's reputation and preserve his livelihood. 

Was the proprietor's son justified in feeling his profits had been stolen? Was he justified in beating the man for his theft? Was he justified in prosecuting the thief?

Is it easier for the thief to forgive himself or to forgive the proprietor's son?


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## SecondTime'Round

2ntnuf said:


> A man walks in a store with no money and stomach growling. He steals an apple and eats it right away in the alley outside the store. The son of the proprietor, taking out the trash, sees the man eating the apple. He argues with him and accuses him, knowing he was in the store and did not pay for a thing. He berates him and beats him, leaving him there on the wet asphalt.
> 
> The thief broke the law. Maybe the proprietor's son was attacked when he confronted the thief? Who would believe the thief? The proprietor, not the son, then prosecutes the thief to save his son's reputation and preserve his livelihood.
> 
> Was the proprietor's son justified in feeling his profits had been stolen? Was he justified in beating the man for his theft? Was he justified in prosecuting the thief?
> 
> *Is it easier for the thief to forgive himself or to forgive the proprietor's son?*


I don't know. That's a lot to think about on a holiday weekend when I'm on my third glass of wine. :scratchhead:


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## 2ntnuf

SecondTime'Round said:


> I don't know. That's a lot to think about on a holiday weekend when I'm on my third glass of wine. :scratchhead:


Don't know why, but I really like Merlot. I think that and a good German Riesling once in a while are my favorites. Oh forgot Beaujolais, I like it too. Haven't had any in a couple years. 

"Good on you" for enjoying yourself. 

Stuff like that comes to mind and I will forget if I don't post it. Did you check out any of those blues songs I posted. Sheesh they are sexy. Had to walk away.


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## SecondTime'Round

2ntnuf said:


> Don't know why, but I really like Merlot. I think that and a good German Riesling once in a while are my favorites. Oh forgot Beaujolais, I like it too. Haven't had any in a couple years.
> 
> "Good on you" for enjoying yourself.
> 
> Stuff like that comes to mind and I will forget if I don't post it. Did you check out any of those blues songs I posted. Sheesh they are sexy. Had to walk away.


Yes, I did at the time you posted, but I should listen again. Always in the mood for new music. 

Cheers! (Cabernet here)


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