# Question about annulment through Catholicism



## teutonic_metal

Greetings,

I am from a non-denominational protestant religion. I have been studying a little about converting to Catholicism. I am currently going through a divorce that my wife initiated and she doesn't want to get back together. I have read about annulments on the US Bishop's website and feel my marriage would qualify under we weren't married by an ordained Christian minister (drive thru wedding) and there were no witnesses. Catholicism requires at least 2 witnesses. Has anyone been through an annulment? What was it like? I spoke to a priest today and he said I didn't have to be Catholic to request an annulment but I had to be legally divorced first. Thanks 👍


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## Diana7

If you have to be legally divorced first the marriage is already over. Therefore no need for an annulment.


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## teutonic_metal

A Catholic annulment pertains to the religious side of a marriage. It has nothing to do with a state legality of a marriage. It pertains to if the marriage is actually declared a valid marriage or sacred. Thanks for your reply though.


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## Personal

@MJJEAN


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## Diana7

teutonic_metal said:


> A Catholic annulment pertains to the religious side of a marriage. It has nothing to do with a state legality of a marriage. It pertains to if the marriage is actually declared a valid marriage or sacred. Thanks for your reply though.


Yes but you are not a RC so don't worry. Annulments aren't Biblical anyway.


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## sokillme

Unfortunately we are missing our relevant Catholic expert, but he should be back soon.


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## Young at Heart

teutonic_metal said:


> Greetings,
> 
> *I am from a non-denominational protestant religion*. I have been studying a little about *converting to Catholicism*. I am currently going through a divorce that my wife initiated and she doesn't want to get back together. I have read about annulments on the US Bishop's website and feel my marriage would qualify under we weren't married by an ordained Christian minister (drive thru wedding) and there were no witnesses. Catholicism requires at least 2 witnesses. Has anyone been through an annulment? What was it like? I spoke to a priest today and he said I didn't have to be Catholic to request an annulment but I had to be legally divorced first. Thanks 👍


A Catholic view on Marriage & divorce

Just how non-denominational? Was your wife babtized (as Catholic)? Pauline's Privilege came to mind because you talked about converting, but it would depend on your wife's religious background.

One of the principles of most marriages is "commitment" to the institution of marriage. 

I wish you luck.


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## teutonic_metal

Thank you young at heart. Neither of us are Catholic or baptized Catholic. I was baptized non-denominational church of Christ and she was allegedly baptized southern Baptist. The big thing is we were married by a "minister" in a drive thru wedding that had no witnesses.
I have posted in another thread and won't go into great detail but I really feel she cheated on me but I can't prove it at this time. I have uncovered financial lies that I didn't know about (extra credit cards). She at first said she wanted a divorce because she is unhappy, we argue all the time, our families clash, "it's never been right" etc. We went to therapy and she said she was interested in therapy but was filing her divorce paperwork during this time. She actually told me she had thoughts of ending the marriage through suicide of her own, adultery with another guy, or hoping I would die. This may seem like I am a horrible person but she is trying to paint me as abusive, unstable, etc. so she can keep the narrative in her head, what she is doing is correct. So, I think her actions and words don't qualify as she "intended" to be sacredly married. I mean my vows (for rich or poor, better or worse, in sickness and in health, until death do we part).


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## teutonic_metal

"their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister." 









Annulment


"We [bishops] understand the pain of those for whom divorce seemed the only recourse...We urge them to make frequent use of the sacraments, especially the Sacra...




www.usccb.org


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## Diana7

An annulment is basically a divorce under a different name. They don't permit divorces so call it annulment to make it ok. If you meant your vows and dont want to divorce then stay married. 
She may divorce you anyway.


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## Talker67

if you are considering BECOMEING roman catholic, and you have previously divorced but want to marry again....carefully consider how you are setting yourself up for hardship. The RC church does do annulments, but usually only for rich or politically connected people. And they take years to push thru.

Why not just choose a form of Protestant religion that is pretty close to being roman catholic? maybe Anglican?


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## Personal

Talker67 said:


> The RC church does do annulments, but usually only for rich or politically connected people.


That's not true, my first marriage was in a Catholic Church to a Catholic woman. And when considering whether my wife who is also nominally Catholic and I wanted to assuage her mother by getting married in a Catholic Church. We looked into my getting an annulment. Which we could have done, I just baulked at what the church wanted by way of payment. That said one doesn't need to be rich or politically connected for that outcome to be achieved.


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## Personal

sokillme said:


> Unfortunately we are missing our relevant Catholic expert, but he should be back soon.


Actually MJJEAN knows a bit about this.


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## Talker67

Personal said:


> We looked into my getting an annulment. Which we could have done, *I just baulked at what the church wanted by way of payment. *That said one *doesn't need to be rich* or politically connected for that outcome to be achieved.


hmmmm.....


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## D0nnivain

I looked into years ago. I was dating a guy going through a divorce. I believed he had grounds for an annulment & I got the paperwork from our local parish priest. The guy claimed he wanted to marry me. We were never engaged. I wouldn't even talk about it unless he got an annulment. Turned out he was lying to me about a lot of things. Once I found out I ended things. 

Like anything else, there are criteria for an annulment. You get the criteria from the priest & you follow the program. You submit the paperwork, including a copy of your civil divorce & whatever other documents they require. You make your case & you see what happens. 

I'm not clear on how or why you do this if you have not converted to Catholicism yet. If the Church didn't bind you & your STBX together through the sacrament of holy matrimony I don't get why they have to get involved in the dissolution. As I understand it, in the eyes of the Church you weren't really married anyway because it wasn't consecrated, (even though it was legal civilly) so you may not have to go through all the trouble. More importantly one of the things you have to submit to get an annulment is a copy of your Baptismal certificate. You don't have one of those because you have not yet converted to Catholicism.


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## Personal

Talker67 said:


> hmmmm.....


The cost wasn’t extraordinary, it was more about having to pay at all to assuage my now mother-in-law when I wasn’t ever Catholic and was an atheist, while my now bride was also an atheist as well.

So we decided to get married in a Protestant church as a partial compromise to it happening in a Christian church of any kind at all.


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## teutonic_metal

Talker67 said:


> if you are considering BECOMEING roman catholic, and you have previously divorced but want to marry again....carefully consider how you are setting yourself up for hardship. The RC church does do annulments, but usually only for rich or politically connected people. And they take years to push thru.
> 
> Why not just choose a form of Protestant religion that is pretty close to being roman catholic? maybe Anglican?


I have to respectfully disagree with you. I have a friend that was married for a little over 2 years. She divorced him and applied for an annulment through the Catholic Church. In about 6 months, her marriage was annulled based on "absence of form" which means their marriage was not considered sacrament because they were married outside the Church, without knowledge, etc. She divorced him legally first and he did cheat but she didn't want to have to fight it out in court with him. She said it didn't cost her anything. Pope Francis himself has said in the last few years annulments shouldn't cost anything and are taking too long to investigate and decide.


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## TexasMom1216

...


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## teutonic_metal

Interesting story TX. I didn't want this to become a religious war or which religion is correct. I was just asking about annulments and the Catholic church. One must admit though (if religious) that it kind of cheapens the meaning of marriage with how easy it can be to obtain divorce, remarry, etc. I am not saying stay in a relationship where abuse, neglect, indefinitely etc. is happening. I'm just saying it seems like people want or will get divorce now when it's just inconvenient, bored, looking for something "better" etc. Where is the commitment, 50/50, and work on communication? My marriage (soon divorce by wife's choice) was a drive through wedding. Like we were going to go pickup McDonald's. It's our own fault but it should have been a better, serious and a more sacred ceremony. There were no witnesses and how do I know the "minister" was one and not some guy that got a certificate off the internet? However, according to TN we are for now.


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## pastasauce79

I grew up Catholic but I'm not sure about marriage because I didn't get married in the Catholic Church. 

Why don't you ask a priest officiating weddings?

From my understanding, if you were not married in the Catholic Church, your marriage is not recognized by them. 

In my home country, where the majority are Catholic, people have two ceremonies, one is a "civil ceremony" at the courthouse and another which is the "religious ceremony." People who have gotten married at the courthouse but not in a church are not registered as married in the Catholic Church.

My husband wanted to get married in the Catholic church, but he didn't know all the steps you have to take to become a Catholic, it was too much! And I didn't really care back then, but now I'm glad we didn't do it at the church because once you are married by them you are married for life! And you don't know what the future might bring. 

Talk to someone at any church, they should know.


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## Diana7

teutonic_metal said:


> Interesting story TX. I didn't want this to become a religious war or which religion is correct. I was just asking about annulments and the Catholic church. One must admit though (if religious) that it kind of cheapens the meaning of marriage with how easy it can be to obtain divorce, remarry, etc. I am not saying stay in a relationship where abuse, neglect, indefinitely etc. is happening. I'm just saying it seems like people want or will get divorce now when it's just inconvenient, bored, looking for something "better" etc. Where is the commitment, 50/50, and work on communication? My marriage (soon divorce by wife's choice) was a drive through wedding. Like we were going to go pickup McDonald's. It's our own fault but it should have been a better, serious and a more sacred ceremony. There were no witnesses and how do I know the "minister" was one and not some guy that got a certificate off the internet? However, according to TN we are for now.


Most Christians I know take their vows very seriously. The few who are divorced such as my husband and myself had very serious events that ended their marriage.
I do agree though that a lot of people do end their marriage for fairly minor reasons.

Not quite sure why you want an annulment. Especially as it's entirely unbiblical.
You still need a divorce regardless if the marriage is to end.


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## MJJEAN

teutonic_metal said:


> Catholicism requires at least 2 witnesses. Has anyone been through an annulment? What was it like? I spoke to a priest today and he said I didn't have to be Catholic to request an annulment but I had to be legally divorced first. Thanks 👍


My husband was raised Catholic and returned to the Church after our marriage. I was previously married and divorced. I needed an Annulment to have the Church recognize our marriage so he would be allowed the Sacraments and I would be able to convert.

The process was fairly simple, but I did a LOT of research and acted as my own Canon Lawyer with my priest as advocate. In each locality the process will be a bit different, but here is the gist of it.

-You meet with a priest and discuss whether you even have grounds for Annulment.

-You complete the paperwork. It will ask many personal questions, so be prepared for that. My own was 19 pages worth of family history, marital history and relationship details, personal beliefs, and so on. You will also need at least 3 Witnesses who are people who are willing to also submit paperwork detailing their knowledge and observations of the marriage before and after it took place.

-Once the paperwork is complete you submit it to the Tribunal. The Tribunal will hear the case and make a determination.




teutonic_metal said:


> She divorced him and applied for an annulment through the Catholic Church. In about 6 months, her marriage was annulled based on "absence of form" which means their marriage was not considered sacrament because they were married outside the Church,


The Catholic Church recognizes marriages performed by other clergy and even just legal/courthouse marriages. An Annulment due to "absence of form" is a rubber stamp process. See, Catholics are bound to marry within the Church. If a Baptized Catholic marries outside the Church without Dispensation the marriage is automatically invalid. To obtain Annulment of such a marriage one only needs to submit a Baptism certificate and the marriage record showing the marriage was performed outside the Church and that's it.

The more detailed Annulment process is going to take time and effort. I filed for my Annulment the year the Church reformed the Annulment process. Mine was one of the last that went through the old unreformed process. It was free, but took over a year to complete. AFAIK, since reform the process is a bit quicker now.


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> If you have to be legally divorced first the marriage is already over. Therefore no need for an annulment.


Wrong. The annulment is within the Church. For Catholics it can be important.


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## EleGirl

teutonic_metal said:


> Thank you young at heart. Neither of us are Catholic or baptized Catholic. I was baptized non-denominational church of Christ and she was allegedly baptized southern Baptist. The big thing is we were married by a "minister" in a drive thru wedding that had no witnesses.


I think that there can be some small differences in what is required depending on the Catholic Diocese.

A friend of mine went through most of the process for an annulment. His marriage was in the Catholic Church since they are both Catholics. He was going to be given the annulment but pulled out of the process because he was concerned that it might hurt his children.

I've never heard that a non-Catholic can get an annulment in the Catholic Church. But it might be different in the Diocese where you would do this. The idea of "two witnesses" is not two witnesses for your wedding ceremony. It's two witnesses who can testify that your marriage was never valid.

For example, if you have 2 friends or relatives that have very good knowledge of why your marriage was never valid, then they could testify about what they know.

The way I read the below quote is that your marriage would be considered invalid because you did not have two witnesses at your marriage ceremony.

Who performed your marriage? I wonder if the Church would consider that person qualified to perform the marriage. I've never heard of a drive-by wedding....????

_"Catholics are bound to follow the proper form of celebration in order for any marriage to be valid. If the marriage is invalid due to a lack of legitimate manifestation of consent, the form may be defective in one of two ways. The first is that *the marriage ceremony was celebrated without at least two witnesses*, and the second is that the priest, deacon, or layperson who asked for and received the consent of both parties was not duly qualified to do so. If this is the case, a tribunal investigation, called a proceeding regarding a defect of form, will seek to determine if either of these scenarios was operative. Typically, cases that require this type of investigation are quite rare. If it is found that either of these scenarios was operative, the marriage will be declared invalid."_​
It also looks like you would need two other witnesses that will be able to give statments that your marriage was never valid.

_"If the marriage is declared invalid and the parties wish to continue with a Catholic annulment, they will be required to complete certain steps to receive a declaration of nullity. The requirements are as follows:_​

_A petition form which has been submitted by a Catholic or non-Catholic whose former marriage was to a Catholic._
_*Two qualified witnesses who are able to testify that the attempted marriage was never valid.*_
_Recent baptismal certificate for the Catholic petitioner._
_Record of invalid marriage_
_Final decree of civil divorce or civil annulment."_

Catholic Annulment: What Is The Proper “Form Of Marriage”? - Catholic Annulment - Another Chance (churchannulment.com)


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## EleGirl

Talker67 said:


> if you are considering BECOMEING roman catholic, and you have previously divorced but want to marry again....carefully consider how you are setting yourself up for hardship. The RC church does do annulments, but usually only for rich or politically connected people. And they take years to push thru.
> 
> Why not just choose a form of Protestant religion that is pretty close to being roman catholic? maybe Anglican?


it's not necessarily true that a Catholic annulment is only done for rich and politically connected people.

*"Cost*​_The cost of an annulment can vary from church to church. The average cost is around $500, with a portion due at the time the case is submitted. The rest can be paid in monthly installments. If you cannot pay the full amount, arrangements can be made through the church to settle some of the expenses. *No case is turned down due to a person's inability to pay the fee.*"_​How to Get an Annulment Through the Catholic Church (brides.com)​
Here's some info from NJ... it's $800 there.

How Much Does An Annulment Cost? – Diocese of Camden (camdendiocese.org)


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## EleGirl

pastasauce79 said:


> I grew up Catholic but I'm not sure about marriage because I didn't get married in the Catholic Church.
> 
> Why don't you ask a priest officiating weddings?
> 
> From my understanding, if you were not married in the Catholic Church, your marriage is not recognized by them.
> 
> In my home country, where the majority are Catholic, people have two ceremonies, one is a "civil ceremony" at the courthouse and another which is the "religious ceremony." People who have gotten married at the courthouse but not in a church are not registered as married in the Catholic Church.
> 
> My husband wanted to get married in the Catholic church, but he didn't know all the steps you have to take to become a Catholic, it was too much! And I didn't really care back then, but now I'm glad we didn't do it at the church because once you are married by them you are married for life! And you don't know what the future might bring.
> 
> Talk to someone at any church, they should know.


Here in the US, a Catholic marriage is done in the Church. There is no need to do a second one in the court. The priest is considered legal wedding officiant by the state.


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## Talker67

EleGirl said:


> it's not necessarily true that a Catholic annulment is only done for rich and politically connected people.
> 
> *"Cost*​_The cost of an annulment can vary from church to church. The average cost is around $500, with a portion due at the time the case is submitted. The rest can be paid in monthly installments. If you cannot pay the full amount, arrangements can be made through the church to settle some of the expenses. *No case is turned down due to a person's inability to pay the fee.*"_​How to Get an Annulment Through the Catholic Church (brides.com)​
> Here's some info from NJ... it's $800 there.
> 
> How Much Does An Annulment Cost? – Diocese of Camden (camdendiocese.org)


well i guess i was remembering from long ago how hard it was.
glad to see the church has improved the process


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## Personal

EleGirl said:


> Here's some info from NJ... it's $800 there.


Given they have a process, investigation and it takes time etc and all the rest, I certainly wasn't surprised at what they told me the cost would be.

Despite the fact I am an atheist who was nominally raised Protestant, I have been married to two "Catholic women from Catholic families, while I've also been partnered with other Catholic women.

So I have some exposure to the Catholic Church. And am glad that there is a way for Catholics to get annulments if there is cause. Of which I think it's fine for them to do that when it matters to the practice of their religious faith.

Also as an aside I went through the whole process in the first instance with my ex-wife in terms of attending advice sessions on being married as a Catholic etc. While in the second instance with my wife, on being asked by my now brother-in-law, my wife and I attended a session with a Catholic Priest to talk about marriage before we got married.


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## Personal

EleGirl said:


> Here in the US, a Catholic marriage is done in the Church. There is no need to do a second one in the court. The priest is considered legal wedding officiant by the state.


It's the same in Australia.


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## BiancaP

Diana7 said:


> If you have to be legally divorced first the marriage is already over. Therefore no need for an annulment.


That's not exactly how it works. A divorce is a legal determination. An annulment is a spiritual determination and would indicate that the marriage was not a valid union and so never existed in the church's eyes. They aren't mutually exclusive.


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## TexasMom1216

BiancaP said:


> That's not exactly how it works. A divorce is a legal determination. An annulment is a spiritual determination and would indicate that the marriage was not a valid union and so never existed in the church's eyes. They aren't mutually exclusive.


I didn’t realize that. I thought annulment was a legal term as well. New information.


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## EleGirl

TexasMom1216 said:


> I didn’t realize that. I thought annulment was a legal term as well. New information.


 There are two types of annulments. 

One is the legal annulment given by states when a marriage is determined to be illegal.

The other type of annulment is they one given by the Catholic Church which is "a spiritual determination and would indicate that the marriage was not a valid union and so never existed in the church's eyes."

A state annulment and a Church annulment are two completely different things.

States do annulments. Like a divorce, an annulment is a court procedure that dissolves, or ends, a marriage. An annulment is different from a divorce in that an annulment treats the marriage like it never happened.


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## Diana7

BiancaP said:


> That's not exactly how it works. A divorce is a legal determination. An annulment is a spiritual determination and would indicate that the marriage was not a valid union and so never existed in the church's eyes. They aren't mutually exclusive.


It existed in God's eyes even if not in the RC churches eyes.


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## Wolfman1968

Diana7 said:


> It existed in God's eyes even if not in the RC churches eyes.


I'm not sure I have a lot of confidence in your ability to make that call.

How are you to know what God thinks in any single instance?


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## Diana7

Wolfman1968 said:


> I'm not sure I have a lot of confidence in your ability to make that call.
> 
> How are you to know what God thinks in any single instance?


The Bible tells us what God thinks. 
They were married. They made promises. Annulment is never mentioned in the Bible.


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> The Bible tells us what God thinks.
> They were married. They made promises. Annulment is never mentioned in the Bible.


If a grown man married a child, say a 9 year old. Is that a 'legal' marriage under Biblical terms?


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## thunderchad

Try atheism. No rules.


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## Wolfman1968

Diana7 said:


> The Bible tells us what God thinks.
> They were married. They made promises. Annulment is never mentioned in the Bible.


YOUR interpretation of the Bible.

Are you, perhaps, a Jehovah's Witness or Unitarian Christian? Because the Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible. So if the word "Annulment" must be in the Bible for you to believe it, then the word "Trinity" must be as well for you to believe it. Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians can quote many passages that support their view, under THEIR interpretation.

Do you believe in Transubstantiation, that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, like the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and the Ethiopian Orthodox do? Because it says "This is my body" and "This is my blood" in the Bible. Or is it YOUR INTERPRETATION that the words are not literal?

The Roman Catholic Church takes literally Matthew 16:19 as their authority, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." So if they declare a marriage annulled, then they have the authority to do so. If you disagree, it's YOUR INTERPRETATION, not necessarily "what God thinks". (And by the way, the Catholic Church doesn't view an annulment as a type of divorce, it's more that the required elements to make it a valid marriage were never there in the first place, kind of like someone signing a contract while under the influence of drugs, or a contract signed with a gun to your head, or a contract made by a minor who is not eligible to make contracts. So Biblical statements about marriage aren't relevant if there was no valid marriage to begin with.)

So, again I say, I don't have much confidence in your ability to make that call. It's just YOUR INTERPRETATION of "what God thinks", not necessarily REALLY "what God thinks".


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## Evinrude58

Just sayin’
The Catholic’s ideas of annulments are ridiculous. 100% nonsense 

If two people get a license, have a wedding and choose to say vows in front of friends and family and aren’t under duress, they’re married and the Catholics have no right to “annul” it whether they claim to or not.

I’ve heard of people who got married and had kids together and were together for years…… they divorce and one wants to marry a Catholic and the church “Annuls” it. I think that’s just lunacy. But whatever.


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## Wolfman1968

Evinrude58 said:


> Just sayin’
> The Catholic’s ideas of annulments are ridiculous. 100% nonsense
> 
> If two people get a license, have a wedding and choose to say vows in front of friends and family and aren’t under duress, they’re married and the Catholics have no right to “annul” it whether they claim to or not.
> 
> I’ve heard of people who got married and had kids together and were together for years…… they divorce and one wants to marry a Catholic and the church “Annuls” it. I think that’s just lunacy. But whatever.


Well, then you don't have to ask for an annulment.

But I will say that your statement about "having a license" and "being together for years" makes me wonder if you understand what the Catholic annulment is about, because none of those are relevant. It revolves around the fact that Catholics believe that marriage is a sacrament, which is a way that God bestows grace on people. But, as with all Catholic sacraments, there has be certain elements present for it to be valid. So, for example, if someone had water poured on him, but the priest/official said he was baptizing in the name of Buddha, that would not be a valid sacrament. Also, if someone had their Confirmation ceremony, but the person doing it wasn't a real priest/bishop, just a friend in Catholic clerical vestments, then that would not be a valid sacrament. Maybe closer to the issue of annulment would be if someone went to confession (which is a sacrament in the Catholic church, no need for anyone to argue), said they were sorry for their sins but really weren't, then that also would not be a valid sacrament/confession due to lack of the proper mental attitude, even if they went through all the proper forms.

So, Catholic annulment is not about not whether they went through all the motions of marriage or any duration of the union. It's not a legal determination, and it doesn't say that the person wasn't married for state purposes. All it says it that the elements were not there to make it a valid Roman Catholic Church sacrament. Sometimes it's obvious---a Catholic who marries a Hindu, and has a Hindu ceremony is not a valid sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church because the elements were not there at the outset. More relevant to this thread, if a woman brags to her friends that she's only marrying a guy for his money and has no intention of being respectful of him, and has sex with one of the groomsmen in a utility closet of the wedding venue on her marriage day, this bride would obviously not had entered into marriage with the mental attitude necessary for her marriage to be a sacramental one. The Church then determines that the marriage was not a sacramental one, even though it IS a valid legal one. The marriage is "null" for spiritual/sacramental purposes, thus an "annulment" is given. That's why it's set up like a trial, the tribunal members are essentially judges trying to determine if the elements are their for a sacramental marriage, and they will not only interview the couple, but any friends/family who an attest to what they saw.

So, the only purpose is to determine if it fit the criteria for a Catholic sacramental marriage. If you don't believe in sacraments, or even believe in God, fine, that's your right. But if you take that marriage is indeed a sacrament, then the annulment process is not "nonsense". The thing to remember is that it is ONLY about spiritual grace, NOT about any legal standing, etc. So your comments about "having kids" or "being together for years" really have no relevance to the concept of a sacramental marriage in the Catholic church.


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## Diana7

EleGirl said:


> If a grown man married a child, say a 9 year old. Is that a 'legal' marriage under Biblical terms?


The marriage isn't legal in most countries so no.


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## Diana7

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, then you don't have to ask for an annulment.
> 
> But I will say that your statement about "having a license" and "being together for years" makes me wonder if you understand what the Catholic annulment is about, because none of those are relevant. It revolves around the fact that Catholics believe that marriage is a sacrament, which is a way that God bestows grace on people. But, as with all Catholic sacraments, there has be certain elements present for it to be valid. So, for example, if someone had water poured on him, but the priest/official said he was baptizing in the name of Buddha, that would not be a valid sacrament. Also, if someone had their Confirmation ceremony, but the person doing it wasn't a real priest/bishop, just a friend in Catholic clerical vestments, then that would not be a valid sacrament. Maybe closer to the issue of annulment would be if someone went to confession (which is a sacrament in the Catholic church, no need for anyone to argue), said they were sorry for their sins but really weren't, then that also would not be a valid sacrament/confession due to lack of the proper mental attitude, even if they went through all the proper forms.
> 
> So, Catholic annulment is not about not whether they went through all the motions of marriage or any duration of the union. It's not a legal determination, and it doesn't say that the person wasn't married for state purposes. All it says it that the elements were not there to make it a valid Roman Catholic Church sacrament. Sometimes it's obvious---a Catholic who marries a Hindu, and has a Hindu ceremony is not a valid sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church because the elements were not there at the outset. More relevant to this thread, if a woman brags to her friends that she's only marrying a guy for his money and has no intention of being respectful of him, and has sex with one of the groomsmen in a utility closet of the wedding venue on her marriage day, this bride would obviously not had entered into marriage with the mental attitude necessary for her marriage to be a sacramental one. The Church then determines that the marriage was not a sacramental one, even though it IS a valid legal one. The marriage is "null" for spiritual/sacramental purposes, thus an "annulment" is given. That's why it's set up like a trial, the tribunal members are essentially judges trying to determine if the elements are their for a sacramental marriage, and they will not only interview the couple, but any friends/family who an attest to what they saw.
> 
> So, the only purpose is to determine if it fit the criteria for a Catholic sacramental marriage. If you don't believe in sacraments, or even believe in God, fine, that's your right. But if you take that marriage is indeed a sacrament, then the annulment process is not "nonsense". The thing to remember is that it is ONLY about spiritual grace, NOT about any legal standing, etc. So your comments about "having kids" or "being together for years" really have no relevance to the concept of a sacramental marriage in the Catholic church.


Don't Catholics care that annulments are completely unbiblical?


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> The marriage isn't legal in most countries so no.


I used an extreme example to make a point. There are many instances of marriages that are not legal.

I know of a Catholic man who was married and then marriage a 2nd woman... bigamy. The 2nd marriage was done in the Catholic Church because he presented fake documents. His 2nd wife got an annulment from the state where they married and another one from the Church. The Catholic Church keeps records of every marriage that has ever been performed in the Church. The Church annulment removed that marriage from the Church's records. Without that annulment, the woman who he took advantage of would not have been able to ever marry anyone else in the Church.


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> Don't Catholics care that annulments are completely unbiblical?


You are not the final word on what is Biblical. They are not unbiblical. Where in the Bible does it say that annulments are not allowed?

What Church do you belong to?

I don't understand why you are so vehement in attacking Catholicism in every thread it's mentioned.


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## MJJEAN

Diana7 said:


> Don't Catholics care that annulments are completely unbiblical?


No. The Church is not Sola Scriptura.

The question of Annulment is whether or not the marriage was validly entered into at the time of the ceremony. A valid marriage is indissoluble by anything other than death. An invalid marriage wasn't a marriage to begin with other than, perhaps, for secular legal purposes depending on country.


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## Evinrude58

Pointless so I edited


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## Evinrude58

pointless


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## Openminded

Diana7 said:


> Don't Catholics care that annulments are completely unbiblical?


IIRC, Protestants rely on the Bible alone but Catholics don’t only rely on the Bible.


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## EleGirl

Openminded said:


> IIRC, Protestants rely on the Bible alone but Catholics don’t only rely on the Bible.


 Catholics don't rely on the Bible alone. But they do rely on Bible for many things.


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## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Catholics don't rely on the Bible alone, but they do rely on Bible for many things.


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## Openminded

EleGirl said:


> Catholics don't rely on the Bible alone. But they do rely on Bible for many things.


Yes, just not only on the Bible. I think that’s the part some Protestants struggle with understanding. I was brought up with both Catholics and Protestants so I do understand but some just don’t.


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## Evinrude58

Were Mary and Joseph considered married, or to Catholics they had an invalid marriage?


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## Wolfman1968

Diana7 said:


> Don't Catholics care that annulments are completely unbiblical?


Don't Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants care that the doctrine of the Trinity is completely unbiblical?

I asked that of you before, but you ignored the issue. It looks like you cherry pick what is "unbiblical" and what is not. According to YOUR interpretation.

Do you think that Sarah was legitimately married to Pharaoh in Genesis? Abraham told people his wife, Sarah, was his sister out of fear, so Pharaoh thought he was free to marry her. When he found out she was already married to Abraham, he sent her back. So, do you consider the marriage to Pharaoh to be "legitimate" in God's eyes? Do you think that a Catholic saying "The marriage of Sarah to Pharaoh is void" would be "unbiblical". 

The Bible is pro-marriage. But some legally legitimate relationships are NOT sacramental marriages. The annulment process is NOT about erasing a evidence of a religiously valid bond, like expunging a guilty but repentant criminal's record. It's instead like finding out that the accused didn't even do the crime in the first place. 

The annulment process is more like a legal discovery. That's why it actually set up more like a courtroom process, with advocates on each side. The point is to discover if the marriage was entered into under valid circumstances.


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## Evinrude58

Wolfman1968 said:


> Don't Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants care that the doctrine of the Trinity is completely unbiblical?
> 
> I asked that of you before, but you ignored the issue. It looks like you cherry pick what is "unbiblical" and what is not. According to YOUR interpretation.
> 
> Do you think that Sarah was legitimately married to Pharaoh in Genesis? Abraham told people his wife, Sarah, was his sister out of fear, so Pharaoh thought he was free to marry her. When he found out she was already married to Abraham, he sent her back. So, do you consider the marriage to Pharaoh to be "legitimate" in God's eyes? Do you think that a Catholic saying "The marriage of Sarah to Pharaoh is void" would be "unbiblical".
> 
> The Bible is pro-marriage. But some legally legitimate relationships are NOT sacramental marriages. The annulment process is NOT about erasing a evidence of a religiously valid bond, like expunging a guilty but repentant criminal's record. It's instead like finding out that the accused didn't even do the crime in the first place.
> 
> The annulment process is more like a legal discovery. That's why it actually set up more like a courtroom process, with advocates on each side. The point is to discover if the marriage was entered into under valid circumstances.


But Catholics consider the only religiously valid bonds are done in the Catholic Church and that is pretty ridiculous. If Jesus himself came back and married a couple, it would probably still be considered annullable.


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## teutonic_metal

EleGirl said:


> I think that there can be some small differences in what is required depending on the Catholic Diocese.
> 
> A friend of mine went through most of the process for an annulment. His marriage was in the Catholic Church since they are both Catholics. He was going to be given the annulment but pulled out of the process because he was concerned that it might hurt his children.
> 
> I've never heard that a non-Catholic can get an annulment in the Catholic Church. But it might be different in the Diocese where you would do this. The idea of "two witnesses" is not two witnesses for your wedding ceremony. It's two witnesses who can testify that your marriage was never valid.
> 
> For example, if you have 2 friends or relatives that have very good knowledge of why your marriage was never valid, then they could testify about what they know.
> 
> The way I read the below quote is that your marriage would be considered invalid because you did not have two witnesses at your marriage ceremony.
> 
> Who performed your marriage? I wonder if the Church would consider that person qualified to perform the marriage. I've never heard of a drive-by wedding....????
> 
> _"Catholics are bound to follow the proper form of celebration in order for any marriage to be valid. If the marriage is invalid due to a lack of legitimate manifestation of consent, the form may be defective in one of two ways. The first is that *the marriage ceremony was celebrated without at least two witnesses*, and the second is that the priest, deacon, or layperson who asked for and received the consent of both parties was not duly qualified to do so. If this is the case, a tribunal investigation, called a proceeding regarding a defect of form, will seek to determine if either of these scenarios was operative. Typically, cases that require this type of investigation are quite rare. If it is found that either of these scenarios was operative, the marriage will be declared invalid."_​
> It also looks like you would need two other witnesses that will be able to give statments that your marriage was never valid.
> 
> _"If the marriage is declared invalid and the parties wish to continue with a Catholic annulment, they will be required to complete certain steps to receive a declaration of nullity. The requirements are as follows:_​
> 
> _A petition form which has been submitted by a Catholic or non-Catholic whose former marriage was to a Catholic._
> _*Two qualified witnesses who are able to testify that the attempted marriage was never valid.*_
> _Recent baptismal certificate for the Catholic petitioner._
> _Record of invalid marriage_
> _Final decree of civil divorce or civil annulment."_
> 
> Catholic Annulment: What Is The Proper “Form Of Marriage”? - Catholic Annulment - Another Chance (churchannulment.com)


Sorry just now replying. Thank you for that information. It helps on the witness part. We were "married" in Gatlinburg, TN. Dolly Parton??? It's kind of like Vegas there. There are numerous "chapels" there and they will marry you for a cheap price. I have no clue if he was a minister but he claimed he was. Seriously, people laugh but it was drive thru and done in like 5 minutes. No witnesses to our"marriage" other than the so called minister.


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